

It will take a 'baby elephant' to knock over this bike [video] - ZeljkoS
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/click_online/9776325.stm

======
Irregardless
> One of the most common accidents for motorcyclists is falling while turning
> a corner.

Yes, due to loss of traction or excessive cornering speed. But those are both
issues inherent to two-wheeled vehicles, and adding gyroscopes won't solve
either.

So you gain the ability to ride in the rain without wearing rain gear, but you
give up cargo space and visibility. Not to mention the fact that your head
will now be in the perfect position to get rammed by a bumper, and the lower
profile increases the likelihood that other drivers won't see you.

It's a nifty trick, but I don't see who this would appeal to. Most
motorcyclists already have rain-proof gear, and non-motorcyclists will still
think it's a death trap.

~~~
imglorp
I'll address the possible appeal as a diehard daily motorcycle commuter; from
110f down to 20f, anything except ice and snow.

I invested in a decent sport touring bike with ABS and heated grips, plus
riding gear. Yes it's warm and dry. There is some irritation where it takes a
few minutes to put on all the gear (pants, boots, jacket, gloves, ear plugs,
neck gator if cold, and helmet) over work clothes, take them off at work,
repeat on the way home. Cargo can be an irritation, needing tying down. A bag
of groceries or case of cans is okay but not much more. I need a better way to
carry a laptop. Yes, I dropped the bike once, sudden braking at a stop sign.
Yes, it's pretty common.

So an enclosed gyro vehicle would improve these issues for me: convenience and
cargo. The tippy thing is a minor plus.

The downside: it takes away most of the fun of a bike. The fun is hard to
qualify but it involves being outside, connected to the machine, shifting,
leaning, braking, and in general micromanaging your outcome.

Am I likely to get one as a commuter? Maybe. A Miyata or Mini would fill a
similar bill and buy more utility.

~~~
syntax-rules
At least it still leans the right way! I think a big part of their pitch was
fuel efficiency too, in theory you can get the weight pretty low, although
you'll still be in goldwing territory. Also, hard luggage helps a bit on the
bike too, but I still spend all winter getting dressed.

------
chimere
This actually uses control moment gyroscopes [1] in a scissored-pair
configuration, the subject of my undergrad thesis. These differ from standard
gyroscopes in that they are gimballed to produce a reaction torque. They are
actually most commonly used on large spacecraft for attitude control, so the
comment about "technology from the ISS" is quite relevant.

However, the statement that there are "two for redundancy" is dubious. The
torque from a control moment gyro is not produced in a constant vector - the
torque vector rotates with the gyroscope as it is gimballed. Thus, if there
was only one gyro, some component of its output torque would be aligned with
the yaw axis, which would create some rather unpleasant and dangerous effects.
The scissored-pair configuration is required to cancel out the yaw torque.

[1]: <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Control_moment_gyroscope>

------
majke
I can't get if they are really serious about mass-producing an electric
motorcycle. On technical side this company looks like it's run by an
individual - Daniel. Team page [1] shows 6 employees not named as "Advisors".
Out of who only two are technical (Daniel, the CTO and Kevin).

More worryingly Kevin's linkedin page shows he's not working at Lit Motors for
last two months.

Looks like on technical side Daniel is pretty much alone. It's not necessarily
bad, maybe they are just starting. I'm just worried they'll disappear.

Does anyone know if they are funded?

[1] <http://litmotors.com/lit-team/>

------
jentulman
Off topic rant, the BBC's Click strand drives me up the wall on occasions that
I see any of it. We used to have the wonderful (if haphazard) Tomorrows World
as primetime science viewing and now we're left with Click which is broadcast
in a time slot for the terminally stoned and apparently produced by ex '...
for dummies' editors. And don't get me started on the abysmal Gadget Show.

~~~
coob
I think you're viewing Tomorrow's World via rose tinted glasses. I loved it as
a kid but if you watch an old episode now you're guaranteed to cringe.

~~~
jentulman
I'm sure I am, but unless I'm remembering it very badly they didn't have quite
the same 'OMG Science!' presentation.

The bit about the gyros in the Click video is awful. I was expecting her to
use the word boffin at any moment.

~~~
hnriot
I was expecting (hoping) to see a baby elephant :)

------
Shivetya
Enclosed two wheelers do solve the problems of, its too hot, too cold, to wet,
and more. Yet the price point isn't sufficient to get me or many others out of
cars let alone off of motorcycles.

Twenty four thousand is definitely out there but even twelve thousand will
price it beyond the means of many. Many used bikes if not cars will fall under
that price and unless gas is just astronomical it becomes a bit hard to
justify its purchase. Its a great idea, don't get me wrong. However compared
to existing transportation options its very pricey.

Safety wise, with good use of LED lighting one could make it stand out very
well in traffic without blinding other drivers because its a bit diminutive
for my liking.

~~~
neilmiddleton
I wouldn't be so sure. Working in GBP that bike would cost me £7K. Say I had
it three years, I'm looking at it costing £2.3K a year. Given that with my
current commuter bike (a BMW R1100RT) I already have an annual cost of £1250
in fuel alone. That's before considering all the other costs you get with
owning a bike.

Add to this that this is considerably more comfortable, more weatherproof, and
not a 10 year old like mine it seems a fair price.

~~~
Adirael
I don't think that's a fair comparison. You're speaking about a 1100cc 90hp
machine and comparing it with a small electric motor.

My commuter bike is a 250cc with 28hp. It has 9 years, carbed. Inside the city
(less than 100kph) it gets about 3.2L / 100km and 280km per tank. It's cheap
as fuck to fix and the bike itself was like 1K (used, around 3-4K new, it's
shinny).

~~~
stephenhuey
But after loads of early adopters start buying it, couldn't we expect the
price to drop a few more thousand dollars?

~~~
Adirael
Maybe, maybe not. I don't think it will ever be cheaper than a commuter bike.
More convenient of course, but not cheaper.

On most countries/states is also competing with small cars because you can't
legally lane split. Right now I've got a loaner and it's a 4 seater, a Seat
Mii. It consumes just a bit more than my bike and it's very small and cheap
(around 6-7K new, cars are expensive around here).

------
nakedrobot2
I saw this vehicle at the eg conference (www.the-eg.com) in April. I recognize
the marketing pitch - that it takes "a baby elephant to knock it over" - good
message!

I think it will take a lot for regulators approve this vehicle, because it
really is something quite new, and untested in the field. It does appear to be
fantastically safer than "normal" motorcycles, and I would love to try one
out.

What was never mentioned was how it performs on extremely slippery surfaces.
This is where two-wheeled vehicles have a lot of trouble.

Also, one complaint about the BBC article itself - it uses "technology from
the Space Station and Hubble Telescope: gyroscopes" - Really, BBC? :-)

------
bambax
Is it really called the C1? "C1" is the name of a scooter with a hard top,
distributed by BMW:

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMW_C1>

~~~
Joeboy
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinclair_C5>

------
neilmiddleton
I'd like to see how this behaves with the typical things that cause a bike to
crash, for instance, the front end washing out on ice, or a locked front
wheel, or loss of traction on an accelerating rear wheel.

Highsiding this could still happen I guess.

~~~
danielparks
Seems like the gyroscopes would help with a bunch of those — traction issues
become less about keeping the bike upright and more about controlling where
the bike goes.

I don't see anything about ABS in the FAQ, but that would avoid the problems
of locked front or rear wheels.

Also, I imagine this has only one brake control, unlike a motorcycle, so you
can't lock up one wheel by stomping on your rear brake but not grabbing the
front brake.

I also wonder how effective the gyroscopes would be against a high-side crash.
Would the having to adjust for hills limit their ability to prevent one?

Having a seatbelt seems like it might help with high-sides, too.

------
redcap
The bearded guy raised the point of needing to trust the vehicle to not fall
over, and there was a lot of talk about how it looked and what kind of cool
features were included.

But before I purchased it, I'd definitely want to have a test ride to see how
it went, and perhaps some decent feedback from Top Gear - how does it really
handle in a variety of situations?

~~~
simias
I expect that even if the gyros stop while you're driving you wouldn't fall
over because... well because that's how bikes work. It might change the way it
handles though.

So I would only be worried about it falling over while stopped, which is not
as bad I guess.

Here in Paris I see a lot of those motor tricycles that don't require
motorbike license, so I think there's definitely a market for a not-so
dangerous and simpler motorbike in congested urban areas.

By the way I hate it when the hostess introduces gyros like "space age
technology". Yeah, my bike has bits of steel soldered together, you know, like
the International Space Station!

~~~
duggan
> I expect that even if the gyros stop while you're driving you wouldn't fall
> over because... well because that's how bikes work.

I don't imagine the dynamics would be the same, after all, _you're_ the gyro
on a normal bike. If the vehicle was unloaded and you were going straight,
you'd probably be able to keep enough manual balance control to come to a
relatively controlled halt deploying the parking struts.

However, I imagine the gyros are going to be compensating for internal
imbalance (shopping, baggage) in everyday scenarios, or be travelling around a
corner, or in traffic, etc, so you might have less time than you think to
regain control before toppling.

~~~
simias
Don't the wheels themselves act like gyros at medium speed? But I get your
point, losing the gyros out of the blue on the highway might create a very
dangerous situation.

~~~
barrkel
Yes they do, but the primary reason bicycles (as well as motorbikes) have
stability is because of trail - the contact point of the front wheel is behind
the steering axis.

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bicycle_and_motorcycle_geometry...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bicycle_and_motorcycle_geometry#Trail)

A banked-over bicycle naturally tends to turn into the corner because of
trail, and that turning-in torques the bike back towards upright - turning the
handlebars towards the centre of the curve moves the bottom of the bike
towards the centre of the curve, and that pulls the bike upright.

The larger the trail, the more stable the bike is. Sportsbikes tend to have
shorter trail so that they turn in faster, cruisers tend to have longer trails
so they are more stable on long straight roads.

Loss of gyros would be far more noticeable at low speeds (less than 20mph)
than high speeds IMO.

~~~
jdbernard
While trail and gyroscopic forces both influence steering and stability,
neither are required. It has been shown that a bike can still be self-
balancing even without trail or gyroscopic forces, though positive trail and
gyroscopic forces do make it easier to balance and more stable (see
[http://bicycle.tudelft.nl/stablebicycle/StableBicyclev34Revi...](http://bicycle.tudelft.nl/stablebicycle/StableBicyclev34Revised.pdf)).

ithkuil's comment is the more accurate description of what is going on.

~~~
barrkel
ithkuil is saying the same thing as me, in a different way. I'm talking about
how bikes are self-stable, he is talking about how bikes are stable with
active input. Trail creates a steering feedback system. You need feedback from
lean into the steering in order to create something self-stable, and trail is
the simplest way of doing that.

------
ericssmith
A motorcycle turns by 'falling over'. For me, that and the acceleration are
the main attractions. Can't imagine this will get many motorcyclists to
convert.

~~~
Adirael
Counter steering. This thing turns like a motorcycle, it's the only way
(AFAIK) to turn a two lined wheeled vehicle at speed. It's not a Can-Am.

~~~
barrkel
It has a steering wheel. Can you imagine counter-steering with a steering
wheel? Swerving to avoid something on the road? Gyros would greatly reduce
agility if they were not deeply tied into the steering, so I wonder if the
steering isn't a direct mechanical linkage.

~~~
Adirael
Not sure, maybe. I think they'll be trying to target people who likes MCs but
are too afraid to hop in one, so it would make sense to have the counter
steering mechanically done instead of giving you the full control... I also
couldn't find anything about speed and power.

------
Narretz
As a non-native speaker, "bike" confuses me. This is some sort of motorcycle
... what do you call a bike nowadays that this didn't confuse anyone else?

~~~
polymatter
bicycle = pedal powered bike motorcycle = bike with a motor scooter = bike
with a small motor

(I am UK native, but not a bike person)

------
pbhjpbhj
From the video:

"Imagine a touchscreen embedded in the steering-wheel"

Yes, imagine all the crashes it's going to cause.

~~~
zalew
reminds me of this [http://jalopnik.com/5390061/amazon-users-hack-steering-
wheel...](http://jalopnik.com/5390061/amazon-users-hack-steering-wheel-laptop-
desk-page-show-outcome-of-use)

~~~
freehunter
Hack? Really Jalopnik? You mean they uploaded pictures and reviews in exactly
the way Amazon intended, albeit in a humorous fashion to make a point?

People annoy me far too often.

~~~
zalew
yeah, meanwhile in another thread
<https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4904320>

------
danielparks
The FAQ is here: <http://litmotors.com/faq/>

Notably, C-1 is a code name, not the final product name.

I'm curious how the gyros interact with turning. Presumably they have a
limited ability to change orientation (necessary for say hills at the very
least). It sounds like the steering wheel is hooked to the front wheel
mechanically (from the FAQ: ”… with mechanical backups to allow the driver to
steer and stop the car even in a catastrophic failure of all systems”). Does
that mean you have to countersteer like in a motorcycle?
(<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Countersteering>)

I could imagine the steering wheel manipulating the gyroscopes to initiate
leans rather than turning the front wheel. I'm unsure how effective that would
be, especially at low speeds.

EDIT: I looked at some of the videos on their website. It seems like the
steering wheel does turn the front wheel, and the gyros are free to tilt to
accommodate hills. The video shows them tilting toward each other on a lean —
I think that means they rotate in opposite directions? Not my area of
expertise.

------
merraksh
Previous discussion:

<https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4037645>

------
mikek
Note that he says 'baby elephant' instead of 'car'.

Edit: a baby elephant weighs 3 tons, whereas an average car weights 2 tons.
Hmm.

~~~
GigabyteCoin
Cars can carry a lot more inertia than a baby elephant.

------
prof_hobart
As a motorcyclist, I'd like the tech to be put into more traditional
motorcycle bodies. The idea of not being able to be knocked off, or fall over
on an icy road, appeals - but the look of this really doesn't. It reminds me
of the similarly named BMW C1 (<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMW_C1>).

~~~
simias
I don't think they're going for the biker market. After all, it has a steering
wheel, not bike handles. That alone hints that it probably drives somewhat
like a car.

~~~
prof_hobart
The interview suggests that they are after both markets, and this is obviously
a prototype vehicle - there's no reason why they couldn't produce both a car
replacement and a more stable motorbike as separate vehicle.

------
happywolf
A cool-looking vehicle, but wonder how much more weight it has compared to the
regular motorcycles? I think embedding a cell phone at the center of steering
wheel is a sure-fire way to distract driver attention and cause accidents.

------
anjc
Is there potential for something like this to be safer than a car during a
collision, ignoring the fact that it can stay upright? I presume that a car
going 30 miles an hour is going to have more of an impact than a baby elephant
pushing, so i don't like the idea of being enclosed in a soft shell which is
just going to fall over and go under a car.

Is it easier to fit small vehicles like this with things like roll cages, or
more encompassing air bags? Or will a car always have a safety edge because of
crumple zones etc?

~~~
timthorn
And what happens to the gyros' energy in a crash?

~~~
jdbernard
Wow, I had not even thought of that. If the integrity of the frame is
compromised during the collision that seems a very scary prospect.

------
spupy
> a bike using technology found on the International Space Station and the
> Hubble Space Telescope - gyroscopes

Holly cow, gyroscopes! The technology of space travel!

------
rmason
Does anyone know if the Lit will qualify for the US governments $7500 electric
car subsidy?

------
srlake
I hope Tesla buys them. Model-B.

------
dbz
So, you could add gyroscopes to a motorcycle and there would be no difference.

------
bmuon
Alternatively, there are some enclosed electric tricycles going around that
may have some success like the Arcimoto: <http://www.arcimoto.com/>

------
duedl0r
duh.. a guy patented this more than hundred years ago:
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gyro_monorail>

tsss...

------
huhtenberg
And there's no chance that gyros (abruptly) stop, because... ?

(edit) OK, let's make "abruptly" optional. So what's the contingency plan for
when gyros spin down and stop?

~~~
sdoering
Well. And what when AirBags stop working, or anti traction in cars, or...

Every technology might fail. And every device will fail. And it does so in
cars, in planes, in trains or whatever.

That's why (so do I believe), they built two gyros in there. One for fail-
save-mode.

~~~
kayoone
Still if the traction system in cars fails you dont fall over and and lie on
the street immobile. They have a second one for fail safety, but i think there
could relatively easily be a case where both fail, like no energy for whatever
reason.

~~~
Xylakant
Gyros spin very fast on very efficient bearings. A rotating mass will not stop
immediately unless forced to do so. So even when power fails completely, the
gyro will continue to rotate for quite some time (several minutes probably)
and fulfill it's purpose - well, unless something penetrates the gyro housing
and blocks the spinning wheel. But then I guess your problem is not limited to
falling over.

Another issue with fast spinning disks is that they can rupture and send
splinters flying, but it's rather unlikely that both gyros fail in the same
catastrophic way at the same time.

------
nemoniac
I use these Smart cars all the time <https://www.car2go.com/> If they made C1s
available too, I'd certainly use them.

------
cjwebb
That looks very cool. It would be interesting to see at what speeds it can
survive collisions, and still remain upright.

------
nosse
"I know what your thinking: a motorcycle that can't be tipped? How is that..."
fun? Motorcycles are fun, is this?

------
advisedwang
It sounds quite noisy inside from the video

