
One year with the Truly Ergonomic keyboard - CyberShadow
http://blog.thecybershadow.net/2015/05/25/one-year-with-the-truly-ergonomic-keyboard/
======
lvillani
I've been using a TEK for a month but in the end I returned it.

I'm quite susceptible to RSI but it seems that, unlike others, my weak fingers
are actually my thumbs instead of the pinkies, and this keyboard puts heavy
emphasis to press modifier keys (enter, backspace - EDIT: ctrl, alt, etc were
included in the list by accident) with the thumb. Within a couple of days I
felt sore and could barely move my fingers. I then used the remapping software
to move all modifiers to their usual places (as much as possible) and the
situation did really improve.

However, I frequently switch between the desk and a laptop and always had to
waste a couple of minutes to adjust to the different layout. The TEK _is_
slightly more comfortable but not enough to justify its high price for me,
that's why I ended up returning it.

Additionally, the return process is long and tedious since they have a
tendency to ignore the first few requests and they seem to respond only if put
under pressure. I managed to ship back mine last week, after a monthlong
attempt at gaining their attention.

I tried many keyboards during these years and in the end I think that
switching to a mechanical keyboard (Unicomp EnduraPro) and from QWERTY to
Colemak did 90% of the job for me. After that the law of diminishing returns
kicks in.

~~~
brador
Protip: get a keyboard with macro keys and set them up as modifiers or as
modified keys. It helps.

~~~
melling
Can you give an example? Are macro keys used for doing several keystrokes with
one key?

~~~
brador
Some razer keyboards and corsair keyboards have them. You program them using
the software to whatever keystrokes you want. When pressed they do them. For
example, I have one set to do $. Another to ctrl,alt,del.

------
ahains
This is my current keyboard/trackball setup. I have been tweaking my
configuration for a number of years and this is the most comfortable option I
have found for my particular body ratios. I think the best layout may vary
somewhat from person to person.

[https://plus.google.com/107061065248858824293/posts/S7X6x9kA...](https://plus.google.com/107061065248858824293/posts/S7X6x9kAuxH?pid=6153215542436554354&oid=107061065248858824293)

~~~
nerdy
Geez you look close to launch. Taking preorders?

~~~
dewyatt
I read your comment before clicking the link. Cracked me up!

------
lolive
The best keyboard hack I will ever recommend is to remap:

    
    
        CapsLock+hjkl -> the arrows
    
        CapsLock+Spacebar -> Return
    
        CapsLock+ui -> PgUp and PgDn
    
        CapsLock+yo -> Backspace and Delete
    

That's the best way to reach control keys, imho.

~~~
ghshephard
No really obvious way to do that in OS X (Mountain Lion)

~~~
cr__
Try Karabiner:
[https://pqrs.org/osx/karabiner/](https://pqrs.org/osx/karabiner/)

The amount of remapping options beats anything else I've tried on any
operating system. I'm stuck on OS X for now because of this program.

------
quickpost
I use the Microsoft Natural keyboard, and this is how I solve the mouse
distance problem for myself:

[http://i.imgur.com/3OMpedd.jpg](http://i.imgur.com/3OMpedd.jpg)

I just remove the numpad keys, and then tape my ergo trackball down to it.
Works like a charm and allows me to keep my wrists in neutral position at all
times.

I've definitely struggled off and on with RSI over the years and this book has
been really helpful in keeping me limber:

[http://www.amazon.com/Conquering-Carpal-Syndrome-
Repetitive-...](http://www.amazon.com/Conquering-Carpal-Syndrome-Repetitive-
Injuries/dp/1572240393/)

The other thing that's helped me is going to the gym and doing light wrist
curls (and reverse wrist curls) at least once a week.

~~~
jkot
Interesting solution, will give it a try.

Microsoft has two good keyboard without numpad:
[http://www.cnet.com/products/microsoft-sculpt-ergonomic-
desk...](http://www.cnet.com/products/microsoft-sculpt-ergonomic-desktop/)
[http://www.trustedreviews.com/Microsoft-Arc-Keyboard-
review](http://www.trustedreviews.com/Microsoft-Arc-Keyboard-review)

My plan is to invest some time into learning VIM keys and migrate to Arc.

~~~
quickpost
Ya, vim bindings help a lot too. I even use VIM to do everything in the
browser (vimium), and that helps cut down on mouse usage a ton.

------
billions
A truly ergonomic keyboard, in my mind, would be one on which the palms are
facing each other like holding a tree trunk. My hands were not meant to be lay
flat on a surface. Also, smartphones should have physical keyboards on the the
back- blindly operable.

~~~
rson
Kinesis has an accessory[1] for their Freestyle keyboard that does just this.

[1]: [https://www.kinesis-ergo.com/shop/freestyle2-ascent-
accessor...](https://www.kinesis-ergo.com/shop/freestyle2-ascent-accessory/)

------
beeforpork
I switched from Cherry G80-3000 with Querty where I was very fast, to a
Kinesis with Dvorak. I had some RSI problems so I made a very hard cut
switching both keyboard and layout at the same time. The keys of the Kinesis
(soft click) are not as good as the Cherry's (hard click), but, well, the
world is not ideal.

Anyway, the effect was great! I was so slow for the first few weeks that I
cursed at the long identifiers I had introduced in my C programs. :-) But even
after some years, I never had any serious RSI since, and I am back to the
speed of typing as before.

The funny thing is, I never stopped typing Querty. I use a normal Querty
laptop at home and a Dvorak Kinesis at work. Keyboards+layouts are so
different that I absolutely cannot type Dvorak on a laptop nor Querty on a
Kinesis. They are different enough so I very rarely mistype the wrong layout.
I switch without thinking, because they are so different. And maybe the
constant switching keeps my hands busy in different ways, contributing to not
having any problems with RSI since.

~~~
swah
Confused because AFAIK "The top row of keys, including the escape key and
function keys, are small soft-touch keys with membrane dome switches. The
remaining keys are standard size and each has its own Cherry MX brown key
switch, providing a tactile feel, but no click. "

Maybe you just like blues? I love my browns on the Filco and Leopold...

------
mVChr
I had severe right arm problems and in addition to getting treatment from
doctors was looking for every way to relieve the issues in my workspace.

I had a friend let me borrow a [https://www.kinesis-ergo.com/shop/advantage-
pro-for-pc-mac/](https://www.kinesis-ergo.com/shop/advantage-pro-for-pc-mac/)
and it took a while to adapt to it but it ended up helping. I didn't want to
keep it indefinitely so while I thought about buying one for myself I wanted
to try something different. I did some research online and ended up buying a
Truly Ergonomic 229. I liked the keyboard layout for the most part, especially
the most used keys being on the central line, but there were a couple
annoyances (top-left escape/tilde/1 order I never got used to and always
typoed). The major problem to me was what seemed like a bonus at first: it's
too compact. While it's easy to pack away in a laptop bag, it was impossible
for me to get an ergonomic arm position. My forearms were always angled
inwards with my hands and wrists angled out. This ended up exacerbating my
right arm problem and I had to stop using it. Unfortunately I really wanted it
to work and had kept at it past the refund period so it's just sitting in a
drawer now waiting for me to throw it up on ebay.

If the [http://www.keyboard.io/](http://www.keyboard.io/) models were
available I would have tried one of them next but I ended up going with a
Microsoft Sculpt
[http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00CYX26BC/](http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00CYX26BC/)
since the price was right after blowing the money on the TEK and I couldn't
justify shelling out for the Kinesis now. I am still using the Sculpt and
would definitely recommend it. I would also recommend the Kinesis if you're
willing to spend the extra dough and don't mind (or appreciate) the archaic
looks.

------
pjungwir
I happily used a Microsoft Ergonomic for a long time, but started looking for
something else a couple years ago so I didn't have to hold my mouse so far
out. Basically I needed something without a numpad.

Truly Ergonomic was my first choice. I adapted to it easily enough, but pretty
soon I started feeling pain in the backs of my hands---the same pain I feel
after using a non-ergonomic keyboard for too long. I'm not sure what the
problem was, but I do recall feeling that the TE was too "square" so that my
wrists had to bend the same way they would for a regular keyboard.

The refund took a long time, and I had to follow up a couple times to finally
get it.

After that I switched to a Kinesis Advantage, and the adjustment was a bit
harder but still not too bad. I'm very happy with it and still using it now.

------
dm03514
Anyone else clicking on this because of their wrist/hand/arm pain, I would
highly recommend

[http://www.amazon.com/Conquering-Carpal-Syndrome-
Repetitive-...](http://www.amazon.com/Conquering-Carpal-Syndrome-Repetitive-
Injuries/dp/1572240393/ref=pd_sim_14_3?ie=UTF8&refRID=0HGSA6YSAM1QQ7TZ1N8W)

which is a series of very simple exercises.

I have found more relief in daily stretches outlined in the above book then
the keyboards I use: kinesis advantage, placed on my lap, at work (8 hours a
day) and Truly Ergonomic at home on weekends

~~~
boothead
Paul Egoscue's books "Pain Free" and "Pain Free at your PC" are also very
good. I'm really looking forward to Kelly Starrett's "Deskbound" to come out
too.

~~~
ahains
It looks like the author's name is Pete Egoscue

~~~
boothead
You are correct sir!

------
edgartheunready
I use two apple bluetooth keyboards and some software called Karabiner that
lets the keyboards share modifier keys like shift, option, control, and
command. My hands tend to be 2 feet apart most of the time.

------
thisjustinm
Been using Kinesis Freestyle 2 Mac[1] & bluetooth variant along with a
Kensington Trackball[2] for just over 3 years and I'll never go back. I
switched keyboards one week and then switched to the trackball and started
using my left hand for the mouse the next.

Overall it took a week to feel comfortable with each and another week after
that to be back up to my previous typing / mousing abilities (the week where
both were new was particularly amusing - I could barely highlight text at
first). Now I can switch between standard keyboards and right or left handed
mousing / trackball / trackpads with ease.

Background: At my last job I developed tendonitis in my wrist after some
particularly grueling work weeks using the Apple wireless keyboard and
trackpad. I think the trackpad is what really did it - the flexed position it
encourages your wrist to be in really couldn't be ergonomically worse.

[1] - [https://www.kinesis-ergo.com/shop/freestyle2-blue-
mac/](https://www.kinesis-ergo.com/shop/freestyle2-blue-mac/) [2] -
[http://www.amazon.com/Kensington-Orbit-Trackball-Mouse-
Scrol...](http://www.amazon.com/Kensington-Orbit-Trackball-Mouse-
Scroll/dp/B002OOWB3O/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1432655792&sr=8-3&keywords=kensington+trackball)

~~~
xorcist
I have used a Logitech Trackman Wheel for the past 15 years. My experience
mirrors yours: I had to force myself to use it for the first two weeks. The
following 178 weeks you would have had to pry it from my cold, dead, fingers.

It is however a thumb-ball, not a palm-ball like like Kensington, and the
trick to efficient usage is to set the sensitity to maximum. Really, try it.

Logitech never understood the greatness of the device and they have slowly
phased them out. They only sell the wireless version now. I bought a couple of
the wired model on sale once and I am now down to my last two. The switches
wear out, unfortunately.

------
mafuyu
I've been using an ErgoDox for 5 months and I regularly switch between it and
a laptop. Switching isn't too bad, especially since I have ctrl bound to the
caps lock key on both.

------
rob-alarcon
Does anyone has experience with the matias pro?
[http://matias.ca/ergopro/pc/](http://matias.ca/ergopro/pc/)

~~~
tmd83
What about the keys? I was thinking of getting a mechanical keyboard but with
shared space the noise would be a problem. I have heard a lot about the cherry
switches but not about matias, so wondering about that.

It seems that the ergonomics is a bit touch and go by person. Its difficult
for me to get these keyboards so I want to make a safer choice. Anyone has a
thought if I should try for a more ergonomic keyboard for comfort or getting a
mechanical one should be first priority.

~~~
shadeless
I don't have first-hand experience yet, but Matias claims to have "world's
quietest mechanical keyswitches":
[http://matias.ca/switches/quiet/](http://matias.ca/switches/quiet/)

------
jtreminio
Thanks to this article, I've become aware of both KeyMouse [0] and Keyboard.io
[1]; The KeyMouse seems like it'd be something better for me - no need to move
my hand away from keyboard to operate the mouse.

[0] [http://www.keymouse.com/](http://www.keymouse.com/) [1]
[http://www.keyboard.io/](http://www.keyboard.io/)

------
otterpro
One way to minimize the distance between the keyboard and the mouse was to
switch the mouse from the right side to the left. This, of course, means that
I had to learn to use the left hand for mouse, but this actually helped more
than anything else, since reaching for and moving it has been straining on my
wrist. Another benefit is that it freed my right hand to occasionally write
something on paper.

~~~
JoshTriplett
I've solved that problem by using a USB ThinkPad keyboard, so I have a mouse
on home row and mouse buttons just under the spacebar.

That also puts all the usually distant keys much closer.

------
jarpineh
I tried to like Truly, but the lack of nordic layout was too much and I
essentially gave up using it. Also, its version on mechanic keys were pretty
noisy and somewhat too resistant for me. Key layout felt great, but like with
other too different layouts, it is hard to move between normal keyboards and
this.

These days I alternate between Macbook internal keyboard, Topre Realforce 88
and Kinesis Freestyle. I have grown used to OS X touch gestures, so I have
external magic trackad.

With freestyle, I can keep the pad between two halves within easy reach. For
Topre, I'm thinking of bying one for each side, but I'm leaning on getting
this instead: [http://www.keyboardco.com/keyboard/uk-ergo-pro-quiet-pc-
ergo...](http://www.keyboardco.com/keyboard/uk-ergo-pro-quiet-pc-ergonomic-
keyboard.asp)

This has mechanical keys (which I prefer now thanks to Topre, though not its
variable force for weaker and stronger fingers) and Freestyle's split. Its
maker is relatively unknown, but I've taken risks like this before ;)

------
300bps
Articles like this validate my decision to just use a standard QWERTY
keyboard. I learned to type at age 10 and type an average of 142 WPM with a
max of 163 WPM.

OP doesn't say what kind of speed he is getting on these alternate keyboards
with alternate layouts but I have to believe it is nowhere near justifying the
hobbling you'll get when using a regular keyboard.

~~~
CyberShadow
OP here. keybr says that my speed is 97 on average and 150 max. IIRC my
average was below 90 a year ago, but that was measured through some other
method. I type a lot more code than English prose, though, and English is my
third language.

That switching away from QWERTY will give you a massive speed boost is a myth.
Although the world's fastest typists do not use QWERTY, the main benefit of
alternate keyboard layouts is not speed, it's comfort (and, well, ergonomics).

The question is polarizing - you can find testimonials of people who tried
Dvorak/Colemak/Workman/etc. and either liked or hated it (so be careful to not
fall prey to confirmation bias). I don't mind the "hobbling" as I very rarely
use others' computers.

~~~
arafa
As somebody who has typed in Dvorak continuously for the last 13 years, I
agree one hundred percent with this post. I find that I type about the same (a
little slower maybe) than in my QWERTY days, anywhere from 70-100 WPM on
average. It's all about comfort, since my wrist pain basically went away for
me (and my brother) since the switch.

It's not for everyone. But you can remap (and set a key to go back and forth)
easily on most computers these days. I find myself mostly on my own devices
too. Some people (myself included) can also switch back to QWERTY and be
functional. It feels so wrong, though, that I avoid it whenever possible.
Never felt hobbled after that first few weeks learning, which were terrible.
That's where a natural curiosity for learning new things really helps.

------
bryanlarsen
google cache:
[http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:8ql11qT...](http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:8ql11qT1bKAJ:blog.thecybershadow.net/2015/05/25/one-
year-with-the-truly-ergonomic-keyboard/)

~~~
CyberShadow
Should be up now. Had to do an emergency migration of my blog to a faster
server.

~~~
lloydde
502 proxy error currently:

Reason: DNS lookup failure for: k3.1azy.net

------
pepijndevos
I'm typing on a TECK right now, and I've been doing so for over a year. I
still hate it.

I use the Workman layout, and I like the layout... BUT THE CHATTER!!!

At first I had to get used to the layout, then supposedly wait for the keys to
"break in", then clean the switches.

It's not so bad... just annoying enough to barely not buy another keyboard. It
was only last week that I ordered
[http://atreus.technomancy.us](http://atreus.technomancy.us)

If that one has chatter too, I don't know what I'll do. Go back to rubber dome
maybe. Despite all the bad things people say about them, my old kb never
missed a single press.

~~~
mannkind
I love my Atreus keyboard w/the TMK-based Atreus firmware; I have not (yet)
noticed that it misses keys.

------
Shorel
For it to be _truly_ ergonomic it should be split and chair mounted:

[http://news.cornell.edu/stories/1996/06/chair-mounted-
split-...](http://news.cornell.edu/stories/1996/06/chair-mounted-split-
keyboard-helps-reduce-typing-risks-study-shows)

I think that's something from StarTrek that has not caught up.

[http://www.cnet.com/news/mythbuster-adam-savage-builds-
star-...](http://www.cnet.com/news/mythbuster-adam-savage-builds-star-trek-
captains-chair/)

~~~
CyberShadow
That's interesting.

Most "ergonomic computer posture" pictures (such as this one[0]) show that
apparently your elbows should be suspended in mid-air.

Personally, I found this to be terrible advice. Instead, I make sure to have
at least two feet of desk space in front of the monitor, on which I rest my
arms. This also makes palm rests unnecessary.

I think this approach shares many benefits with that in the article you
posted.

[0]: [http://www.iogear.com/blog/wp-
content/uploads/2012/08/Ergono...](http://www.iogear.com/blog/wp-
content/uploads/2012/08/ErgonomicsPropper.jpg)

------
fit2rule
There is one simple trick to avoiding RSI, and it works. It goes like this:
change your keyboard every 3 - 6 months.

That's it! Its that simple! It doesn't matter if its an ergo keyboard or not.
What matters is that you _change_ your keyboard and get your muscles moving in
different directions.

Been doing this for 20+ years, after suffering RSI horrendously in the late
80's, and I'll never look back. Whenever I start to feel uncomfortable/pain
while typing I just change keyboards to something else. Solution!

------
bryanlarsen
I had a TEK for 2 months and ended up returning it. I loved the keyboard, but
I use my laptop just often enough that switching back and forth was really
annoying.

~~~
Daneel_
This is the biggest thing for me - I use so many different machines on a day
to day basis that it just doesn't make sense to use anything other than US
qwerty (in the same way that custom aliases on linux machines just isn't a
thing when you do consulting.. You just need to learn the full command or
flags and do that by default).

I used a dvorak layout for about 2+1/2 months, and while my speed was on par
with normal qwerty, I just found going back and forth to be a nightmare. I had
my work USB keyboard (for when my laptop was docked), the laptop keyboard
itself, my desktop at home, my laptop at home, my ipad at home.. Not to
mention server KVM keyboards and other co-workers' keyboards. Yuck.

I generally really struggle without a lot of the more unused function keys
too, like the menu key, which I use ALL THE TIME so I don't have to resort to
the mouse. When you make a typo, try moving the cursor into an incorrectly
spelled word, then using <menu>, then finally the arrow keys and enter to make
a correction in $word_processor next time, I guarantee you'll never look back.
It very quickly becomes <back arrow x3-5><menu><down><enter><end> and you're
back to typing in under a second.

Keyboards that remove this particular key, and replace it with function are a
plague, especially in the mechanical keyboard world.. It's such a shame.

On the flip side, if you only ever interact with your own single keyboard (ie,
your job is writing articles/novels/other full-bodied text) then I'd
absolutely support a more personal solution such as this.

Me? I'll be sticking to my CODE keyboard and its delicious cherry clears.

~~~
to3m
Regarding Dvorak, I've had good success from only ever typing Dvorak on a
split keyboard. To this day, 13 years on, I still can't type it on an ordinary
keyboard. When I'm using my laptop away from a desk using its inbuilt keyboard
- which I don't do much - I use it with the QWERTY layout.

Most of the times I need to type on somebody else's computer, they've got a
non-split keyboard, so no problem there. And if they do have a split keyboard,
I can just look at the keys. I can also do that if I need to use Remote
Desktop and it pops up with QWERTY (as sometimes happens).

I've certainly found this to work for me, though of course if we were all the
same you'd be doing this already and I wouldn't have had to mention it. I
suspect it's part of the reason why my QWERTY speed is still OK, on non-split
keyboard at least. Most people who see me type on a QWERTY keyboard are very
surprised to find out that it's not what I'm used to.

------
bmaeser
my biggest problem with keyboard layouts always was, that with a german QWERTZ
layout it was pretty much impossible to use (){}[]<> efficiently.

i tried NEO and DVORAK but somehow the english layout worked best.i still need
to type umlauts (äöü) and ß, so i made a custom layout.

you can find it on github:
[https://github.com/bmaeser/coDE](https://github.com/bmaeser/coDE) (osx only,
sorry)

~~~
anon4
MacOS should come with a layout that's the same as the AltGr-international on
linux - normal QWERTY, but AltGr(right alt) is used to type "international"
letters, i.e. RAlt+y = ü, RAlt+q = ä, RAlt+p = ö, RAlt+s = ß and more (using
RAlt+vowel gives you the accented variant).

------
allengeorge
I really like the build quality of the keyboard, but two things kill it for me
(and I cannot, in good conscience recommend it to anyone):

1\. I get a high number of missed or repeated keys, even after the keyboard is
broken in

2\. The customer service is _atrocious_ , as in "absolutely no response - not
even an auto-responder - atrocious"

Given that keyboards and their consistent performance are integral to our job,
I'd recommend going with another product.

------
pwenzel
After years of wearing a wrist brace to alleviate repetitive-stress pain, I
switched to a standing desk.

That was 4 years ago, and I haven't had wrist pain since.

------
basher
How disappointing - the blank key model shown is discontinued -
[https://www.trulyergonomic.com/store/truly-ergonomic-
mechani...](https://www.trulyergonomic.com/store/truly-ergonomic-mechanical-
keyboard-soft-tactile-cherry-mx-brown-keyswitches-209-blank-keys)

------
JoshTriplett
Anyone else seeing this error:

502 Proxy Error

Proxy Error

The proxy server received an invalid response from an upstream server. The
proxy server could not handle the request GET /2015/05/25/one-year-with-the-
truly-ergonomic-keyboard/.

Reason: DNS lookup failure for: k3.1azy.net

~~~
CyberShadow
Sorry about that, server went under again, had to do some emergency
maneuvering. Should be up now.

~~~
JoshTriplett
No problem. Out of curiosity, what's the setup there? Reverse proxy to another
system?

~~~
CyberShadow
I moved it to a more powerful server because Wordpress was overloading the old
one. Because there was no time to let DNS propagate, I configured the old
server as a reverse proxy to the new one. That lasted for a while, but wasn't
enough and it went under again. Hopefully there will be no more hickups now
(at least I had the DNS TTL set to 1 hour).

------
nicwest
The ergodox was mentioned in the article as an alternative to this keyboard.

[http://ergodox.org/](http://ergodox.org/)

It's a fun (very) entry level hardware project, with a good product at the
end.

------
cbd1984
The part at the end amused me, so quick poll:

How many people thought the Better Business Bureau was an _actual_ (that is,
governmental) bureau until I asked this question?

How many people were unaware that the BBB sold good ratings until I asked this
question?

~~~
late2part
I did NOT think that BBB was a governmental bureau.

I was NOT aware that the BBB sells good ratings.

------
anon4
I use the TECK and I love it. One suggestion for buyers: put Ctrl on the right
space and Enter on the right Ctrl. And if you're an Emacs user, Alt or Escape
on the Enter in the middle.

