
Ask HN: Is Dvorak worth it? - britknight
I&#x27;ve been considering forcing myself to learn Dvorak for a while now, but I&#x27;ve been wondering about how much value there could be in switching. Has anyone here gone through with the switch? How was the learning process? How did your typing fare in the transitional period (i.e. did your QWERTY speed decrease as you learned Dvorak)?
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ninjakeyboard
I use colemak - It's incremental to qwerty and is much easier to learn. As
such, I'd argue it's better for developers as cut copy paste shortcuts and
most punctuation are unchanged. Ubuntu and OSX both come with Colemak now
(minus the caps lock to backspace). IMO it's a much more comfortable layout to
use without being too terrible to learn. If you want to learn it's because
you're interested. I type on crazy blank keyboards etc now - it's pretty
gangster but if you're asking here I'd say you shouldn't bother. If you're
driven to learn on your own beyond all logic and reason, then I'd personally
recommend colemak. The only area that's tough is pairing with other devs but I
can type fine on a qwerty as long as I have visual cues (can see the layout of
the keyboard.) I can touchtype on qwerty just fine and fast but I'll make a
lot of errors without the constant visual reminder of the keyboard infront of
me.

My speed dropped from 115wpm to probably 40 - I just checked and it's back up
to 80-90 wpm after about 4 years but my hands hurt a lot less because of the
reduction in speed.

I'd say you'd get bigger bang for your buck switching to a kinesis advantage
but if you THRIVE ON LEARNING than nobody will stop you from picking up a new
layout. The keyboard is our fork and spoon. It is the tool of our daily life.
Doesn't that make it worth some time, effort and money learning to use better?

------
Nadya
No. Colemak is better, from my experiences.

I've used QWERTY, Dvorak, and Colemak. Of the three - Colemak is the most
comfortable. I type at 140-155 WPM in all but Dvorak, in which I am out of
practice. When I was actively using Dvorak I typed in the same range.

The speed at which I type is not largely limited by any of the layouts, but
the _comfort_ of typing is. I found Colemak to be the most comfortable and
Dvorak to only have a slight edge on QWERTY.

I now use mostly Colemak but still maintain QWERTY practice for the times I
have to use other peoples' machines (which is more often than I'd like).

If you type a lot and comfort is your goal - I would sing praises for Colemak.

~~~
ninjakeyboard
+1 I love Colemak.

------
mightybyte
I first started learning dvorak almost 15 years ago. At that time I could type
~120 wpm on qwerty. Learning the dvorak layout was easy. After just a few
hours practice I was able to type the full keyboard (maybe minus some of the
symbols) at ~60 wpm. I didn't do anything else with it until a few years
later.

Around 10 years ago I made a complete switch and I've been using it ever
since. Today I am still not faster with dvorak than I was with qwerty when I
switched. I was at 60-70 wpm for the first few weeks, and that was maddening.
But after a few weeks I think I got into the 80s and that was more tolerable.
Speed increases much beyond that are more about typing whole words or
sequences of letters as a whole, and that tends to take longer to learn. Now I
type around 100 wpm. I switched hoping to be able to type faster, so if that's
the measure of success, then dvorak failed. I do think it's possible for a
better keyboard layout to speed you up, but dvorak isn't that layout. It is
pretty clear that my fingers travel less distance on a dvorak keyboard than
they did on qwerty. Because of this, typing on dvorak has an overall "calmer"
feel to it than qwerty. I've heard some say that it helps their RSI problems.
I've never really suffered from RSI, so I can't personally comment there.

In summary, I don't mind that I changed, and if I could do it over, I still
might do it again--but not for the same reasons.

------
melling
Not sure. As a programmer, it's harder to evaluate if you use autocompletion,
for example.

Xah Lee has written about it:

[http://xahlee.info/comp/dvorak_keyboard_layout.html](http://xahlee.info/comp/dvorak_keyboard_layout.html)

[http://xahlee.info/kbd/dvorak_and_all_keyboard_layouts.html](http://xahlee.info/kbd/dvorak_and_all_keyboard_layouts.html)

Tool to evaluate alternate layouts:

[http://patorjk.com/keyboard-layout-
analyzer/#/main](http://patorjk.com/keyboard-layout-analyzer/#/main)

Other layouts:

[https://normanlayout.info](https://normanlayout.info)

[https://viralintrospection.wordpress.com/2010/09/06/a-differ...](https://viralintrospection.wordpress.com/2010/09/06/a-different-
philosophy-in-designing-keyboard-layouts/)

[https://medium.com/@vojtajina/my-keyboard-layout-is-
better-t...](https://medium.com/@vojtajina/my-keyboard-layout-is-better-than-
yours-f23b19d1b046)

~~~
ninjakeyboard
Don't use colemak or dvorak on your phone - they don't work well with swype
etc due to autocorrect because the most common characters are all on the
homerow. But it's not the same thing on a keyboard you type on all day.

------
o4tuna
I switched about fifteen years ago. After around four weeks of struggling I
was bit faster than before (and as a COBOL programmer I was blazing fast on
qwerty).

You won't be using Dvorak on mobile devices, but this is no big deal. If
you're proficient with qwerty, you'll always retain the ability to use the
qwerty layouts in a non-touch-typing manner just as well as before.

Since switching, I've avoided doing touch-typing on a full qwerty keyboard
because I'm worried that going both ways could dull my Dvorak edge. I can tell
I'm even faster than before, and it does feel more natural.

On the rare times I need to use someone else's keyboard, I can do it--but I'm
clumsy and observers will be entertained by the spectacle of a tech wiz who
"can't type on a normal keyboard". However, If I use a full qwerty keyboard
for more than about thirty seconds the old qwerty-fu starts returning. I have
never used a qwerty keyboard much longer than that because I just don't want
to go back. I don't know, but I'd bet you if I wanted to go back to qwerty I'd
be programmer-level proficient again in a week or two. Maybe even less.

It would be interesting to see if I could get proficient on both keyboards
like bilingual people can switch between languages. I'm not curious enough
about it to risk slowing down my cruising speed, though.

One more thought: I learned Dvorak without the benefit of a keyboard overlay.
The first few days would probably be much easier if you use one.

Oh, and one more one more thought: I switched while self-employed. There were
no jeering coworkers or impatient bosses to contend with.

And a final one more thought: be prepared to be asked about it. Most muggles
have never heard of Dvorak.

------
nostrademons
Yes, but not for the reasons normally given.

I switched in college, basically by forcing myself to write all my papers and
AIM chats in Dvorak. It was painstaking at first, hunt-and-peck, particularly
since I didn't have an actual labeled keyboard (I'd made a printout of the
Dvorak layout instead). Took me about 2 weeks to get up to about 30 WPM (I'd
been a 90 WPM Qwerty touch-typist before). It was another 6 months or so
before I matched my Qwerty speed. Oh, and in the process I forgot how to type
in Qwerty; I eventually re-learned it, so I'm now bi-keyboardal, but it was
unnerving at the time. I'd say my typing speed now peaks at about 10% faster
than it was then, but I'm usually thought-constrained and not typing-
constrained.

I'd say it was worth it for a number of non-obvious reasons:

1\. The _process_ of switching is very illuminating about how our brain
handles subconscious, autonomic tasks - much like how I imagine learning a new
language is. I found that about a week and a half in, I had _half_ the
keyboard mentally mapped in Qwerty and half mapped in Dvorak, such that I'd
often type out unintelligible polyglot sentences. And for several years later,
I'd be triggered by whatever was up on the screen: if I had an IDE open, I'd
automatically type in Qwerty, while if I had an AIM chat or word processor
open it'd be Dvorak. This is useful information whenever you're trying to
build a new habit.

2\. It's a built-in security device. Even if someone gets ahold of your
computer, they probably won't be able to use it.

3\. It helps a bunch with RSI. You stay over home row much more with a Dvorak
layout, there's much less finger contortion, and so it's correspondingly less
strain on your hands. Given how much I use my computer (and how I'm
occasionally prone to tendonitis), this has been a godsend.

~~~
agumonkey
Your 1 reminds me of shifting leading hands on an instrument. Revisiting from
scratch, crippled, is really an illumination. So much was possible without
explicit understanding.

2 :)

3 Didn't learning new finger patterns also rewire the way you "handle"
position and movement too ?

ps: about switching layouts, I realized that my brain associates layouts to
certain machines. Typing in Qwerty on my laptop is easy, in Azerty on my
parents machine is easy, but not the other way around. Doesn't help that
they're both so close to each other I guess.

------
sova
I use programmer dvorak and absolutely love it. I would recommend it to
everyone. Qwerty was just made to deliberately slow down typists. Dvorak is
much more comfortable and the programmer dvk variant is really well laid out
for coders. I can type long strings of numbers without looking and rarely have
to backspace for a typo. Qwerty is just embarassing compared to dvorak. Some
people with wrist stress find their typing longevity renewed thanks to dvk.
Again, check out the programmer variant. Has some slight differences (numbers
are shift-accessible, symbols like () and {} are the numeric row.

Interestingly, A and M are the same spot in qwerty and Dvorak. There are
typing tutors online, but I recommend printing out the layout or keeping it on
screen and learning that way. Your hands will thank you.

------
sparkie
I switched due to RSI with the hope it would help - but the difference it made
was neglible. Buying a better ergonomic keyboard is far more important than
the key layout for coping with RSI. If you're having problems, look for a
column staggered keyboard with thumb modifiers.

Typing speed is not really any different from qwerty. Having all the vowels
adjacent is sometimes a slowdown because you're utilizing one hand more than
the other. I'd probably look at Workman or one of the Q?MLW? layouts if I were
to learn again - since they're based on more modern attempts to measurably
optimise the layout. The problem with those though, is having them supported
by the OS and applications.

Which is perhaps the biggest reason not to bother with Dvorak. It's a PITA to
configure most operating systems and the apps you use to have consistent
keyboard shortcuts/chords/sequences etc, without having to stretch your hands
around the keyboard for operations like cut/copy/paste - which are probably
already hard-wired into your neural network. You'll find yourself
reconfiguring the controls for any game you play - reconfiguring application's
keybindings, if they let you do so easily - and every one of them will have a
different means of configuring them anyway.

As for switching between Dvorak and Qwerty, I've never had an issue doing it.
I sometimes make a mistake for perhaps the first minute after the context
switch, but I can easily type in either layout as good as ever. Perhaps
because I still used Qwerty regularly while learning Dvorak and still use it
frequently still (can't change keyboard on work computers because people
complain, etc).

For the time investment it'll take to learn Dvorak, I'd say it's not worth it.
Start by getting a better keyboard (or for pleasure, make your own and adapt
it to your hand shape). Play around with some other layouts like Workman and
see if they feel comfortable. It should take only a few hours to learn any one
layout and you'll forget it pretty quickly if you don't carry it on - so it's
not really an issue trying out several layouts to see what you like - then
committing to one with spaced repetition or just hard grinding.

~~~
melling
Which ergonomic keyboard(s) do you use?

~~~
ninjakeyboard
I would strongly recommend the Kinesis Advantage.

------
MrBingley
No. It's not.

About a year ago I switched cold turkey to Dvorak. Aware of Qwerty's obvious
design flaws and the improvements Dvorak had made, I had been toying with the
idea of learning Dvorak for quite some time. That summer I found myself with a
few weeks of nothing to do, so I learned Dvorak. My regimen was to do the
exercises on [http://learn.dvorak.nl](http://learn.dvorak.nl) everyday for as
long as I could. Using a computer during that time was extraordinarily
painful. I had to consciously think about the placement of every single
keystroke, and simple things like googling "hockey scores" became a monumental
task. I even started to avoid using a computer because typing was so
difficult. If that sounds terrible, it was. However, with more practice things
got better, and within a few weeks I could confidently type Dvorak at a
reasonable speed.

A few months later, at school, two of my friends noticed I was using a
different keyboard layout. I explained to them how I switched to Dvorak, and
they decided to learn it too (which decision they made completely on their
own; I hadn't even suggested they try it). Apparently their learning
experiences were a lot more pleasant than mine, but it makes sense that it
varies from person to person.

About a year later, I am a regular Dvorak user. However, would I recommend
switching? No, not really. Dvorak is better than Qwerty, that much is obvious.
But, did my typing speed increase? No, not really. I hadn't done any WPM
measurements before I switched, but I'm roughly the same speed as before. Is
Dvorak easier on your hands? Perhaps, but not by much in my opinion. If you do
have hand pains, it is much easier and likely more effective to switch to a
_keyboard_ that is more ergonomic, rather than a layout. There are loads of
these keyboards out there, such as TypeMatrix, ErgoDox, Truly Ergonomic,
Kinesis, knock your self out. Switching to an ergonomic keyboard is something
I absolutely do recommend (your pinkies will thank you).

Do I regret switching to Dvorak? No, I don't. I'm no worse off than before,
and maybe even slightly better. However, is learning Dvorak worth it? For its
ergonomic benefits, no, and my two friends that learned Dvorak share this
opinion. If you want to learn Dvorak, by all means go ahead, but don't do so
with the wrong expectations.

------
chipuni
I have typed Dvorak for the past ten years, and my advice: Don't bother.

It is slightly more comfortable to type. And if you control your typing
environments, it's better to stay with Dvorak than to switch back to Qwerty.
But the cost of learning is still greater than the amount of comfort you would
get.

And your typing speed will NOT increase with Dvorak. Typing speed is mostly
due to alternating hands when you type; Qwerty is perfectly fine for that use
case.

------
pradeepa
depends on how many keyboards will you be switching to. I started using Dvorak
and then later gave it up for the following reasons:

1) it was not supported on Linux/Unix back then 2) Switching to my wife's
laptop (which had Qwerty) was uncomfortable 3) my wife couldn't use my laptop
(which i had re-arranged the keys to match Dvorak) 4) remote desktop becomes a
pain. If you connect to your computer from another computer/keyboard, your
computer will expect you to type Dvorak, but your keyboard will be in Qwerty.
5) No proven reports that Qwerty causes CTS (until computers came along,
everyone was using Qwerty) 6) some of the laptop-keyboards don't have all keys
of the same size. Also the holders beneath might not be at the same alignment.
So re-arranging the keys might be a problem. This is more of an issue, if you
use rented laptops, like in my company. On the next laptop-upgrade, they will
replace your laptop and you will have to deal with the "re-arrangement of
keys" issue again.

As a side note, i can say that typing English in Dvorak was more comfortable
and natural, than Qwerty. But for the above reasons, i finally gave up.

------
hakanderyal
Check out Programmer Dvorak. It's more suitable to programming IMHO, with
symbols in the numbers row.

First few weeks was hell, but I've been using it for 6+ years, and couldn't be
happier.

[http://www.kaufmann.no/roland/dvorak/](http://www.kaufmann.no/roland/dvorak/)

------
gull
Yes, it's more comfortable than QWERTY.

The switch was largely a wake up call in how adaptable the human mind is. The
learning process was slow and comical until I started having Dvorak reflexes
on a Qwerty keyboard.

I finally also learned to type properly. I type faster in Dvorak than I used
to type in Qwerty.

What's not to like from a clean slate?

