
Japanese toilet industry agrees to standardize complex bidet controls - prostoalex
http://www.theverge.com/2017/1/17/14306464/japanese-toilet-control-icons-meaning-standard
======
bjackman
> The government has recommended removing the Buddhist manji symbol from maps
> aimed at foreigners, for example, for fear of unintended associations with
> the Nazi swastika.

Does anyone else think this is a shame? When I've been to Asia and seen
"swastikas" everywhere I've found it in a way joyful. The hate symbol has no
power here, I thought; it's a positive thing. Why should one culture change
their own iconography just because it was perverted in a different culture? It
seems like a mild example of self-inflicted cultural imperialism.

Maybe I'm just being very philosophically naïve.

~~~
krapp
>Maybe I'm just being very philosophically naïve.

Possibly, more culturally naive than philosophically so.

World War 2 and the Holocaust had a profound impact on Western culture, and
Westerners have identified that symbol with the Nazis for almost a century.
The impact of Buddhist or Hindu symbology in the West, in comparison and
response, has been practically nil.

For Westerners, who may never have been to an Asian country prior to Japan's
Olympics, to see a manji and mistake it for a Nazi symbol is perfectly
reasonable, if that is the only context in which the symbol exists for them.

The change in icons makes sense, if you (you being some hypothetical Japan)
want to communicate specifically to those tourists and encourage their
engagement with local businesses and culture. Why use a symbol on maps
_specifically for foreigners to use_ which would probably confuse them?

You _could_ just keep it there and say "those ignorant foreigners just need to
learn what it actually means" ... but that would show hostility towards to
your guests, be bad for business and an impractical way to design a map.

Edit: Apparently they decided not to change the iconography for the maps. It
will be interesting to find out what impact if any that appears to have on
engagement during the Olympics.

~~~
sho_hn
> Why use a symbol on maps specifically for foreigners to use which would
> probably confuse them?

If everywhere is the same, why travel? Local color like this makes
destinations more interesting, not less. Hiding culture and heritage makes the
value proposition weaker.

/German living in Seoul

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patio11
If you want an illustration of the problem, here's one sourced by the very
scientific method of finding the closest men's restroom:

[https://www.dropbox.com/s/0iripy6m7fu5f3o/2017-01-19%2016.57...](https://www.dropbox.com/s/0iripy6m7fu5f3o/2017-01-19%2016.57.27.jpg?dl=0)

There are over 20 individual controls on that unit (which is, FWIW, common and
reasonably expensive). If you do not read Japanese, good luck at finding
flush... _and_ finding it will not help you finding it on the next machine you
use.

~~~
mikekchar
I've never seen this unit nor anything even remotely this complex in a public
toilet. The vast majority of toilets I've seen are the basic washlet features
and a _few_ give you the added option of spray pressure. The pressure options
I've only ever seen in hotels. Not only that, but the vast majority of public
toilets are auto-flush.

Having said that, the "bidet" label on the "ladies" button is _highly_
misleading ;-)

~~~
patio11
This use case (use by people who are not literate) is one of those few
circumstances where worse-is-better, because public toilets (like one might
find in a train station or department store) are typically either mechanically
operated (trivial to use) or the lowest-scale models.

That said, this is not a rare, exotic toilet in Japan; it's something which
would be unremarkable in an office building or a restaurant that you could
reasonably use for date night.

~~~
mikekchar
Living as I do in the inaka, I am rarely blessed with such things. Sometimes I
think Tokyo is a different world ;-)

~~~
glandium
Don't you like the washiki toilets? ;) (seriously, I live neither in a big nor
a small city, but there are way too many of them still, in this century)

~~~
mikekchar
I don't :-) But that's the reality of the izakayas around here. Actually the
virtually brand new (7 years old???) onsen near me has exclusively washiki
toilets (very nice new ones). Apparently the older patrons like them. They
have handlebars on the wall too, which is a nice usability touch.

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piyush_soni
Oh, how badly I wished Americans had a clean way of cleaning their ... bottoms
during my 8 years of stay there. Thankfully, Amazon had nice portable bidets
which you could fit in your home toilets, but everywhere else it was still the
same.

~~~
kpil
There's soft wipes (not the paper type). Nothing can beat that.

~~~
bitsoda
Bidets are the way to go, aside from being harmful to the plumbing system,
soft wipes still require you to, well, wipe which is kind of barbaric once you
get used to cleaning your bum with a jet of water and simply drying yourself
after. It also saves a lot of money on paper costs if you use a towel to dry
off.

~~~
kpil
A) saving money. It would take quite some time to recuperate the expensive
toilet. Probably at least 10 years.

B) DON'T flush them.

C) I _really_ don't feel as clean from a jet spray. And I don't like it.
Especially if the toilet is not mine.

D) You can bring your wipes everywhere. They will work in a desert, the
forest, or ISS...

I buy baby wipes for the purpose... They are awsome.

------
tunesmith
A year ago I bought a Luxe bidet attachment for my wife as half-joke. We
basically fell in love with it. Bought it for friends of ours to be funny.
They thought it was hilarious, waited months to install it, then installed it
and fell in love with it. Now they want to buy it for friends. We bought it
for family members for this Christmas. Uproarious laughter, and then... you
guessed it, they fell in love with it, and thinking of who they might buy it
for. For Americans, this is truly one of those things where you come away
thinking "Holy moly, why did we not do this sooner?"

It's $60 for the deluxe version, cheaper if you don't want hot water (and you
actually don't need the hot water). It's a subtle-but-massive improvement in
quality of life.

~~~
drak0n1c
Hopefully this standardization should help the Japanese toilet export market.
They are very quality goods that are hindered by poor UI/UX.

------
dguest
I was hoping that along with the standardization we'd get an explanation (in
english) as to what these symbols mean.

I mean it's nice to know that we can standardize to:

\- a pair of line wobblers

\- two tornadoes of different intensity

\- two different fountain rides with different camera angles and zooms

\- getting mauled by a three-toed sloth, and

\- the all important black box

but maybe for people with less inductive skill some words would help too.

~~~
etatoby
The one in the second paragraph is not good enough?

> _The icons in the image above mean (from left to right) raise the lid, raise
> the seat, large flush, small flush, rear spray, bidet, dry, and stop._

~~~
qqg3
I think they were referring to english language lettering on the toilets.
Because we're not going to carry around a print out from the verge.

~~~
alanh
One read of the explanations and the icons make sense. They should be
memorable after that. Of course hurricane is flush – it's the swirly result.
Forever memorized.

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wapz
For those who don't know, you don't actually have to use the bidet when you go
to Japan. The most complicated thing about toilets in Japan is that the flush
button is on the wall sometimes (and the emergency button is often on the
wall, too).

~~~
ajkjk
... there's an emergency button?

~~~
allengeorge
And in what circumstances would one use it? What does it do? Who does it call?

So many questions...

~~~
kalleboo
You've never been in a handicap toilet in the west?

~~~
allengeorge
I have - and I've never seen an emergency button in one.

~~~
kalleboo
Interesting. I've often seen emergency buttons in handicap toilets in the EU.
Where are you?

~~~
allengeorge
New York. Used to live in Palo Alto and Toronto, and I've never seen emergency
buttons in disabled washrooms in hose cities either. Perhaps it's an EU
regulation?

~~~
Symbiote
Examples: [http://wheelchairsteve.com/2014/emergency-cord-in-
accessible...](http://wheelchairsteve.com/2014/emergency-cord-in-accessible-
toilet-hooked-around-the-wall/)

Contrary to what he writes, I've seen them in a couple of places in the UK. I
rarely use the accessible toilet though, typically only in small but modern
offices where the only toilet is accessible, or on trains.

------
ericdykstra
It's nice that these companies have come together to standardize their icons.

I don't see the intrigue in this story, though. Can someone explain it to me?
Is it the iconography design? The "wow Japanese toilets are complicated!"
reaction? People just upvoting anything that has to do with Japan?

~~~
Swizec
It's not something you'd think needs standardizing. And yet here we are.

~~~
ericdykstra
Different manufacturers have different iconography, because there is no need
to standardize. This is true with microwaves, washing machines, ovens, etc.
You buy a washing machine, learn how to use it, and then never think about it
again.

Public utilities standardize their iconography because many people use them.
That's why every sign directing you to a restroom, or an exit, or a drinking
fountain looks largely the same.

Japanese bidets are alien to most foreigners, Japanese tourism is growing
rapidly and will have a big spike in 2020, and since bidet toilets have
basically become public utilities, the industry came together and created a
standard.

It just seems like a logical conclusion without any intrigue to me. Even
sticking with the Tokyo Olympic theme, the stories about the hotel shortage,
the mess with Tsukiji, and the conflicts about what to do with Golden Gai are
far more interesting.

~~~
kalleboo
> _Different manufacturers have different iconography, because there is no
> need to standardize. This is true with microwaves, washing machines, ovens,
> etc. You buy a washing machine, learn how to use it, and then never think
> about it again._

Cars have standardized their dashboard iconography

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dcow
I think the real problem is lack exposure to such miraculous devices outside
of Asia-Pacific.

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IE6
As an American who has used Japanese toilets I can testify that they are
solving a very real problem.

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agumonkey
My favorite thing is not the complexity, but that you can operate the toilets
without touching them. I wish we had foot controls for cover, flush, water
cleaning faucet and soap mandatory everywhere.

~~~
netcan
Alexa, clean my bottom!

~~~
serge2k
I could probably build that. The remote for the washlet is just IR, bet it
would be easy enough.

~~~
netcan
If you have any ambitions to HN (and reddit!) superstars of, do it (and write
about it).

It would be a wonderful conversation starter.

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allengeorge
At the risk of sounding completely uncultured, what exactly is a rear spray,
and how does it differ from the bidet functionality? Is the bidet targeted and
the rear spray a delightful misting?

~~~
disantlor
bidet has a female icon, spray is gender less. angle (and spread) is different
accordingly.

source: on vacation in japan right now, pressed the bidet button first, wrong
angle.

~~~
allengeorge
Ah - interesting. I always thought that "bidet" was gender-neutral. Good to
know!

~~~
EdiX
Bidet _is_ gender neutral. This must be the japanese interpretation of the
word.

------
jzl
Serious question: WHY can't the computer industry do this for USB-C cables and
ports? It's desperately needed and shameful that they haven't done this.

~~~
Sharlin
The era of USB-A was a golden age - an almost mythical period of time when
everyone against all odds actually agreed to converge into one universal way
of attaching peripherals. Alas, nothing lasts forever. Now it's back to how it
usually is with standards [1].

[1] [https://xkcd.com/927/](https://xkcd.com/927/)

~~~
ashark
I have devices with ports in USB-A, USB-B (printer, hubs, hard drive
enclosures), Mini USB (ewwww), and Micro USB. I expect I'll still have all of
those by 2022, except _maybe_ mini USB if I've ditched my PS3 (doubt it). But
by then I'll probably also have a handful of USB-C devices (maybe 2 or 3—I
have none right now) and likely a semi-compatible USB-C-2.0, plus USB-D and
USB-F will be out and claiming to be the Way Forward, too.

~~~
Arizhel
What's wrong with miniUSB? It's a superior connector to microUSB: it's thicker
and far, far sturdier, and doesn't wear out so easily like microUSB always
does. Most of the microUSB cables I've used eventually get really loose and
don't lock into the socket correctly; this never happens with miniUSB. I
honestly wish the industry had never invented microUSB and had stuck with
miniUSB instead. As a bonus, the extra thickness of miniUSB would have
prevented phones from getting so thin, so we'd likely have thicker, sturdier
phones too with greater battery capacity. (But oh no!! These phones might
weigh 0.2 ounces more!! That's too heavy!! /s)

~~~
ashark
> The Micro plug design is rated for at least 10,000 connect-disconnect
> cycles, which is more than the Mini plug design.

from:

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USB#MINI](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USB#MINI)

Anecdotally (and probably relatedly), my mini-usb plugs always wiggled in the
socket, while micro-usb does not. They also seemed to require less force to
unplug, and so popped out accidentally more often.

~~~
Arizhel
That's really weird, because anecdotally, that's exactly the opposite of my
experience. I've gone through a bunch of microUSB cables that got loose and
wouldn't stay plugged in, and I've never had any problems with miniUSB cables
and connectors at all, ever. I've never seen a miniUSB plug that wiggled in
the socket, but this has been par for the course with microUSB. Besides older
devices like cameras (which I no longer use), I still use miniUSB on my
Microchip PIC programmer and my Fender guitar amp.

It's a bigger, bulkier connector than microUSB, with a much thicker and more
robust metal shield. I really don't see how wiggling would be more of a
problem on miniUSB than microUSB because of this factor.

As for force, again my experience is exactly the opposite: the miniUSB
connectors require a lot of force to both engage and disengage. Not as much as
full-size USB of course, but a lot more than the wimpy little microUSB
connectors.

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cm2187
Are these used outside of Japan?

~~~
scarlac
I'm from Denmark (Europe). Looked into it recently. They are extremely
expensive. You are easily looking at 2000 USD for a cheap setup. I saw a
couple of premium ones for around 14k USD. At this point, I think the problem
is that here is not a big enough market to warrant investment. A Catch 22
until some big company decides to enter the market and others follow.

~~~
Symbiote
The cheap option is a "bidet shower". I had a rented house, owned by a Muslim,
which had them installed.

They are presumably cheap to buy, but they need a proper water supply, and
plumbers in Denmark are expensive...

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bidet_shower](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bidet_shower)

~~~
Arizhel
Are you not allowed to buy yourself a few fittings and a wrench and do it
yourself in Denmark?

~~~
Symbiote
I have no idea, I've not lived here long enough to find out.

Probably.

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dronedronedrone
this is tantamount to cultural genocide /s seriously though, one of the
peculiar joys of being in japan and having a very poor grasp of the language
is the inescapable urge to play with the bidet buttons. you will inevitably
start spraying water all over the bathroom, get yelled at by a nice robot
voice, and panic a great deal.

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hmoghnie
All those different symbols were a real shitshow and people just couldn't deal
with that crap, now that they are going to sort this out it won't be a pain in
the ass anymore with them flushing their old way of doing things away.

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codeddesign
To me... for a an industry standardization, those icons are pretty elegant.
Just thinking of standard restroom signs and then looking at these.

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binarynate
This standardization makes it clearer that there's a button that blasts you
into the air.

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petepete
What are the chances that they'll standardise on the Three Seashells system?

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homakov
So they watched Why him?

