
Stealth Tank Unveiled by Poland - tomashertus
http://www.funker530.com/pl-01-future-stealth-tank-unveiled-by-poland/
======
msandford
"which incorporates technology that makes it invisible to enemy thermal
imaging"

I call bullshit on this one. The US M1 Abrams has a 1500HP gas turbine engine.
To develop 1500HP means producing at least another 1500HP in waste heat, if
not more like 3000-5000HP. Let's conservatively say it's 1500HP * 732W/HP ~=
1MW

How in the world do they think they're going to hide a 1-5MW power plant? From
the second video: Peltier plates on the exterior.

That's great, but it doesn't do jack to the huge plume of exhaust jetting out
the back. And since they've got some kind of fancy exhaust cooling system
they've got to be sucking up and discharging MASSIVE amounts of air to
dissipate several megawatts without increasing the air temperature too much.

Even then, it's not too hard to turn up the sensitivity on the thermal systems
a bit so you can spot these things.

~~~
Terr_
What if it had some sort of, uhm, "thermal ballast" that would be refrigerated
during normal operation?

Then when danger is expected, run the peltier modules in reverse, transferring
heat from the outer layer back into the center for a short period of time.

~~~
msandford
Peltiers are notoriously inefficient. Hideously. Reasonable numbers are in the
10% range. So in order to remove say 5kW of heat from the skin (1.5 tons of
refrigeration) which is pretty conservative would require say 50kW of power.
Most of which would end up as heat in the metal of the structure of the tank.

If you figure the chassis and armor are say, 50 tons, and steel, you can do a
little math to figure out how quickly it would heat up. 50 tons is 50,000 kg
and the specific heat of steel is about 0.5kJ/kgK. We're putting heat into the
chassis at the rate of 50kJ/sec and things cancel out pretty nicely. You'd
heat it up at about half a degree C per second, or about one degree F per
second.

In the best possible scenario you're talking about no more than two minutes
worth of stealth (perhaps only 30 seconds in reality) and that's with the tank
not moving and only idling its engine, just enough to produce the necessary
50kW. It's a neat trick, but I'm not sure it's worth writing home about.

~~~
xkcd-sucks
Storing the heat chemically, in an easily reversible endothermic reaction
including but not limited to phase-change, could be much more efficient than
using Peltiers to cook the crewmwmbers

------
funkyy
Poland is using the strategy of "Showing Teeth" \- which means that it is
doing everything to actually make any country think twice before attacking.

Having huge stockpile of artillery and armoured vehicles it is very difficult
enemy to have.

Recognizing this as perfect way to deter enemies (mainly Russia) Poland have
been investing resources on growing woods (for hiding) and developing newest
artillery and "hit and run" vehicles and equipment.

You would be surprised what they have in development at the moment. After all
- Poland just started huge shopping spree - they started enormous arm up
project, so we will see more of those ultra high tech stuff showing up soon.

~~~
jonnathanson
Poland is going to be a very interesting country to watch over the next 10-20
years. It has one of the fastest growing economies in Europe, a sizable
population, and geopolitically speaking, a very long memory. Tensions with
Russia are going to mount in the coming decades as Poland's economy grows, and
Russia's slows down. I doubt they'd come to blows, least of all in the near
future. But Poland is going to gear up, just in case.

A lot of this will come from Poland's desire to reduce its dependence on the
US. Poland and the US have cooperated, militarily and politically, more
reliably than most European countries have. But in light of recent events in
Eastern Europe, the US is starting to look like a less-than-reliable backstop.

~~~
yogthos
Why would Russian economy be slowing down exactly again, seems to be doing
quite the opposite last I checked.

~~~
jonnathanson
The vast majority of Russia's economic growth is coming from oil and gas
reserves, especially the latter. That's a notoriously shaky ground on which to
build an economic expansion as rapid as Russia's has been in the last few
years. Extremely volatile over the long run. It doesn't help that most of that
wealth is being captured by a handful of government-sanctioned plutocrats, and
by government officials themselves (Putin most especially; he is rumored to
have a personal net worth in excess of $70 billion). A very small proportion
is actually being reinvested into productive and petrochemical-diverse
industry. To make matters worse, the country suffers from some major
demography issues. Its birthrate is problematic, and its population is old. It
is one of the few major industrialized nations whose population is expected to
contract significantly over the next century.

There is very little stability underpinning Russia's economy. It's wobbly, as
is, right now. It'll be wobblier still over the next 10-20 years.

------
stcredzero
Here is a discussion of up-gunning main battle tanks to 140mm guns to keep up
with advances in armor.

[http://z4.invisionfree.com/NSDraftroom/ar/t1514.htm](http://z4.invisionfree.com/NSDraftroom/ar/t1514.htm)

A few interesting points:

Larger cannon are going to be harder to protect. Computerized weapons that can
directly target cannon from sufficient ranges could severely degrade a force
with conventional main battle tanks.

 _The cost of logistics can be related to as the eighth power of the tank’s
weight (for a tank of the weight we’re discussing). Therefore, the logistics
slice of a 80 ton tank would be roughly 5 times greater than an existing 63
ton tank!_

O(N^8) is nasty! A technology that can get one out of an arms race involving
such unfavorable scaling would be game changing.

If remotely guided/autonomous surveillance and munitions vehicles could be
made that out-range main battle tank weapons, then stealthy carriers of such
weapons would rule the battlefield. This, of course, comes with the caveat
that another arms race of countermeasures could ensue. It's hard for me to
envision countermeasures that aren't themselves vulnerable to purpose built
missiles, however.

------
ferongr
Do note that the vehicle in the pictures is just a Swedish CV-90 with some
plastic bits on it, a (probably) mock barrel and various systems. To my
knowledge no prototype hull has been completed to date so I find various
claims that speak of a target of 2018 for mass production hard to believe.
Furthermore, it's not known whether the actual design will pan out.

~~~
Too
Here is a movie from 2011 of this vehicle.
[http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=6OjpB...](http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=6OjpBUvbz78)

They show how they activate and deactivate the heat camouflage and you can
clearly see the difference. It's not fully invisible but if you don't know
what you are looking for you will miss it. The camo can also be activated in
only certain spots so in one scene they make it look like a normal car in IR
by only partially cooling down the exterior.

------
DigitalSea
Looks like something you would see in the Battlefield game series, more
specifically Battlefield 4. Quite clearly Poland feels threatened with the
events taking place in Russia and Syria and wants to show that it is not some
small place that can be pushed around. To be honest, I honestly do not blame
them, the world is a dangerous place and it only continues to grow even more
dangerous. Russia is growing increasingly unpredictable and who knows will be
stupid enough to follow them or any other reasonable threat country into war
if it ever comes to that?

Completely unrelated, but I recently travelled to Poland and it is one of the
most beautiful places I have ever visited. The people are super friendly,
picturesque surroundings and a mixture of historical and modern buildings. If
you ever get there and visit Kraków, head to Moaburger for some of the biggest
and best burgers you will ever feast upon. I have seen their nice side, I
would hate to see their bad side if provoked, I would not want a stealth tank
sneaking up on me, especially in winter.

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smoyer
All those angles remind me of the wire-frame tanks in the 1980's video game
called Battle-Zone [1] - who would have guessed a stealth tank would make me
reminisce?

[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battlezone_%281980_video_game%...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battlezone_%281980_video_game%29)

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aeturnum
Considering how expensive stealth coatings are to maintain on airplanes, I
wonder if this makes sense. Airplanes generally have more options about when
they are exposed to the elements than tanks as well. I also wonder how many
ISIS or Taliban soldiers have radar or thermal support.

I suppose it's meant to be a show of readiness against Russia, but there's no
reason Russia can't adopt the tactics of ISIS and co (you could argue it
already has).

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indymike
The Polish have a history of quite innovative military equipment. Here's a
very ambitious fighter from the late 80s that was very much ahead of it's
time:
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PZL-230_Skorpion](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PZL-230_Skorpion)

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BariumBlue
The thermal camo is likely from BAE who corroborated on this project:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pftna34TbJU&t=0m46s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pftna34TbJU&t=0m46s)

I do find the missile protection feature to be interesting; active protection
been proven to be useful several times, but doesn't seem to be widely used by
any country, except for Israel who do use use them on patrols.

~~~
greedo
Active protection is quite common on high end Russian tanks.

------
PhasmaFelis
This seems like the sort of cutting-edge high-tech war machine that sounds
fantastic on paper, and in practice is hugely expensive and impossible to
maintain in field conditions. In particular, the technology for a completely
unmanned, turret with an autoloader replacing the human loader and camera
systems replacing "stick your head out and have a look", has been around for
decades; there are reasons it's had only limited use.

Gosh, it looks neat, though.

Anyone know what the "Active Protection System Launchers" are actually
launching? At first I assumed it was fancy smoke grenades, but then those
pigeonholes around the sides of the turret turned out to be smoke launchers.
So...Anti-missile chaff/interceptors? Anti-personnel RPGs? Something else?

Oh, one other thing. The second video says it weighs in at 35 tons. Unless
they've left off most of the armor for the display model (which is possible),
this can't possibly be a main battle tank; there's no way it's got enough
armor to take a shot from a full-size tank gun. It seems like they're going
more for infantry support and possibly ambush hunting.

~~~
Tuna-Fish
> In particular, the technology for a completely unmanned, turret with an
> autoloader replacing the human loader and camera systems replacing "stick
> your head out and have a look", has been around for decades; there are
> reasons it's had only limited use.

It seems to be headed for wide use now -- all new major afv designs are now as
small boxes as possible with remote-controlled turrets on top. Look up the
Russian Armata and the German ifv Puma.

> Anyone know what the "Active Protection System Launchers" are actually
> launching?

Anti-missile/bomb defense.

> Unless they've left off most of the armor for the display model (which is
> possible), this can't possibly be a main battle tank; there's no way it's
> got enough armor to take a shot from a full-size tank gun.

Armor has greatly improved since the 80's. Especially ceramics have improved
by leaps and bounds. This, combined with the much reduced and streamlined
internal protected volume, and greater allowed armor volume make a high level
of protection possible with much lower weight than current designs. Even
still, they only promise STANAG 4569 5+ for the 30t main design, and require
5t of additional applique to be fully resistant to guns from front.

In the eternal technological contest between armor and weaponry, we are
currently at a _very_ high point for armor. The combined development of radar-
guided active defenses that defeat all slow projectiles and semi-reactive
ceramics that shred and destabilize ke projectiles as they travel through
them, given a 60t weight budget no reasonable design using current-level armor
and weaponry could penetrate itself from any angle. Of course, given enough
time this will just result in better guns, but as direct upscalings of modern
tank guns have proven to be unworkable and abandoned by everyone, they will
have to use some exotic new tech.

In the meantime, if fighting against 80's tank guns, yes you can get full
protection on frontal arcs at 35t or less.

------
anigbrowl
Wow - that is substantially cooler than I had expected - I would not have
associated Poland with such innovative design, so I must revise my
assumptions! Showing my age, it instantly reminded me of _Battlezone_ :-)

~~~
itcmcgrath
Thanks, that brings back memories. Looks like Poland decided to do a prequel
:)

[http://fc02.deviantart.net/fs27/f/2008/144/9/8/BattleZone___...](http://fc02.deviantart.net/fs27/f/2008/144/9/8/BattleZone___Sabre_views_by_NoStr0m0.jpg)

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danbruc
Is it just me and my personal impression or did we pass a local maximum of
peace after the end of the cold war and the world is becoming a worse place in
recent years?

~~~
idlewords
Almost exactly the opposite is true:
[http://www.pcr.uu.se/digitalAssets/66/66314_1armed-
conflict-...](http://www.pcr.uu.se/digitalAssets/66/66314_1armed-conflict-by-
intensity.pdf)

~~~
danbruc
I also searched and found this report [1] showing an increase since 2010. So
it is probably more nuanced and depends on you definition of conflict.

[1] [http://ploughshares.ca/programs/armed-conflict/armed-
conflic...](http://ploughshares.ca/programs/armed-conflict/armed-conflicts-
report/)

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Elhana
It seems to have muzzle brake on main gun. I wonder why they chose to use it,
it seems none of the current tanks have them for a reason.

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falsedan
Did a double-take at the pictures, thought it was a promotional event for a
sequel to Arcticfox…

------
josho
I thought the tank era had passed us. Once that tank fires a single shot, its
location is revealed and an artillery or air strike can be ordered against its
approximate location.

We are well in the era of air superiority and moving ever closer to the era of
drones. Tanks are relevant for the previous wars only.

~~~
vacri
_its location is revealed_

... and? Tanks don't have to rely on stealth to be effective. Air strikes are
only reliable if you have some degree of air superiority. And tanks can move -
depending on what kind of artillery you're facing, they might not be able to
chase a moving target.

There were tank-on-tank battles in the US's invasion of Iraq, so they're not
that out-of-date. Plus, while there aren't going to many tank-on-tank battles,
tanks are an important component of combined arms tactics - you need infantry
to take urban areas, and infantry is more effective with armoured support.

~~~
josho
Infantry support in urban areas don't benefit from a stealth tank.

I'm not arguing that tanks have 0 value. I'm saying their value has
diminished. In WWII they were the dominant technology, and if total war broke
out during the Cold War it would have been as well.

But, today their role is diminishing to newer technologies.

I think we'll see the same happen to aircraft carriers, they'll be usurped by
smaller drones that could launch from cruisers or destroyers.

It's not unlike computer tech. We are seeing SSDs replace hard disks. The
platter disk still has a role, but we all see the writing on the wall.

------
Frozenlock
Ok, seriously... lens flares?

~~~
clay_to_n
I'm glad I wasn't the only one bugged by the really obvious PS lens flare
effects

~~~
readerrrr
You weren't. And it is the most lazy version possible, Render->Lens Flare

------
afarrell
I've wondered for a while why they haven't developed an elite cavalry unit
given their geography, position in Europe, and the historical importance of
their cavalry.

I might also have a bit too much fondness for paintings of winged hussars...

~~~
lebesgue
I suggest, sir, that you go to a store, buy a hammer, and use it on your head.

~~~
afarrell
To what end?

I freely admit that my fascination with winged hussars is immature. That
doesn't change the fact that Poland is a state in search of security like all
others, borders countries it regards as untrustworthy (Russia and Belarus),
and has a largely flat topography that allows armored assault by those
countries.

Of course you can argue that being a part of NATO means that they are under
the US nuclear umbrella and therefore it is non-rational for them to invest
money in military hardware. However a nuclear umbrella depends entirely upon
the protector nation being able to credibly communicate that it is willing to
use weapons in the defense of the client nation. This gives the client nation
incentive to demonstrate that it has a spine of its own and is willing to pay
a reasonably high cost to defend itself. Otherwise, who would believe that the
larger nation would defend the smaller when push comes to shove? Why else
would Poland have gone to war in Iraq?

The winged hussars are still silly, but a well-known elite cavalry unit doe
support the narrative that Poland is a bulwark of the alliance against an
assault from NATO's traditional enemy. Also, they could better support and
possibly train their ally Ukraine.

------
kolev
Tanks are so noisy, you can hear one from miles!

------
idlewords
Okay, I give up. It's time to bring back the Polish jokes.

