
H-1B: As immigration furor roils Silicon Valley, Canada smooths way for techies - muzz
https://www.mercurynews.com/2018/10/08/h-1b-as-immigration-furor-roils-silicon-valley-canada-smoothes-way-for-techies/
======
timewarrior
I just moved out of US and in process of moving to Canada. Just for
background: Worked in leadership roles for startups and Fortune 15 companies,
sold a company to Dropbox, advise/invest in bunch of startups.

My life's goal is contribute to curing/diagnosing Cancer using technology.
Everything I did in the past 14 years has been towards meeting that goal. I
figured, I would need knowledge, network, and financial stability. I moved to
US in 2011 and over 14 years I achieved all of these. However, after moving to
US I realized that I lost the most critical piece: ability to work on this
goal without significant restrictions.

Visas like H1/O1 have lot of restrictions on what you can work. Recently it
has become extremely difficult for early stage startups to get H1, especially
if the applicant owns significant equity.

Once you get invested and comfortable in a place, you stay put. I worked
really hard to break this ceiling. I tried for EB-1 Green Card twice and got
rejected both times. You need 3 out of 10 criteria for Green Card. Over 2
petitions and an appeal - separate USCIS officials gave me 4 criteria. But
none of them gave me 3, and their responses were very hostile.

I had to deal with H1/O1 petition every year while I pursued my
entrepreneurship goals. However, I am finally done with this and can't do it
anymore. I think I also have PTSD because of my experience dealing with
immigration. I could not work to my potential, missed family events because I
couldn't travel and stayed in limbo for too long.

However, finally I have moved out of US. I want to pursue my goal to attack
Cancer without any employment restrictions. At this point, Canada seems like
the best place for this and that is where I am moving.

I am originally from India, and as mentioned in a few other posts, I do not
want to live there because of quality of life challenges.

I will write more detailed posts sometime next year detailing my experience.
However in summary my advise is:

If you are from India, come to US only if you internalize that you are in a
temporary situation with a set goal: make more money/learn/build network.
Don't get too invested, because you might need to leave at short notice. If
you are an entrepreneur, you would be spending the best years of your life,
without being able to perform to your potential due to immigration related
bureaucracy. India, currently, has great opportunities for Entrepreneurs.

I was lucky to be able to found a company on H1, sell it and work at a few
great companies. Still it wasn't enough to make it here.

~~~
techie128
> I tried for EB-1 Green Card twice and got rejected both times. You need 3
> out of 10 criteria for Green Card. Over 2 petitions and an appeal - separate
> USCIS officials gave me 4 criteria. But none of them gave me 3, and their
> responses were very hostile.

I don't really understand. Do you mean to say that the USCIS officer wanted
you to meet 4 criteria while the rules specify 3? Did you take them to court
over it?

If you already were on O-1 visa, it should've been easy to qualify for EB-1
GC. The criteria is pretty similar for both. Did you try a different law firm?
What criteria specifically did you not meet?

~~~
timewarrior
I had an O-1 visa. Still my EB-1 was rejected - twice!

First time then gave me 2 criteria (contribution to field of work and
contribution to companies). On Appeal, AAO gave me another criteria (high
compensation) and took away 1 already given (contribution to field of work).

Second time, my application was much stronger - but they gave me just one
criteria (press).

I didn't take them to court over it. Didn't want to deal with that.

I will try a different firm next time.

------
Bhilai
I can attest to this. I have three friends who are preparing to migrate to
Canada or Australia. Mind you, these are not the typical H1B workers from
Infosys. These are smart legitimate people with a masters degree who work at
top tech companies. They have no hopes to get a permanent residency in US
because of long queues. Renewing H1B is a big hassle. Surely its a big change
to pick up your life up and move to a different country but its probably for
the good considering the current administration's anti-immigrant stand and
seemingly socially regressive and anti-science policies. This issue has been
coming to a head for a while now. My friends at Apple and Microsoft tell me
that the immigration woes are picking up heat internally and related questions
are making an appearance at internal Q/A with senior management (Tim Cook) so
it remains to be seen if tech companies would be able influence any policies.

~~~
briandear
Why don’t they get an E2 visa which is designed for immigration for those with
high skills and advanced degrees?

An H visa is a temporary, non-immigrant visa and was never intended as a path
to a green card. Frustration around long queues for green cards for H visas
doesn’t make any sense because that is, by its very definition, a non-
immigrant visa.

Expecting permanent residency from a non-immigrant visa is no different than
expecting a French tourist visa to lead to residency.

~~~
briandear
Why is this downvoted? Was anything in or untrue? H visas are temporary, non-
immigrant visas.

[https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/us-
visas/employme...](https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/us-
visas/employment/temporary-worker-visas.html)

~~~
TechieKid
It's downvoted because you, like your profile says, are "opinionated,
inconsistent, irrelevant, irreverent and incontrovertible", and regardless of
the number of times you are told that you are wrong and that H1Bs are dual-
intent visas, keep parroting the same trash in every immigration related
thread. Please quit proliferating nonsense untruths.

And here, for future reference, because short of a citation of the law, and
probably even then, you won't quit spreading junk knowledge:

Better reference:
[https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/8/1184](https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/8/1184)

b) Presumption of status; written waiver Every alien (other than a
nonimmigrant described in subparagraph (L) or (V) of section 1101(a)(15) of
this title, and other than a nonimmigrant described in any provision of
section 1101(a)(15)(H)(i) of this title except subclause (b1) of such section)
shall be presumed to be an immigrant until he establishes to the satisfaction
of the consular officer, at the time of application for a visa, and the
immigration officers, at the time of application for admission, that he is
entitled to a nonimmigrant status under section 1101(a)(15) of this title.

~~~
woud420
Without getting in the history of the parent poster, he's not wrong. H1B is a
temporary (non-immigrant) visa which allows dual intent. Yes, most people on
dual intent visas eventually petition for a green card but I think it's unfair
to qualify his post as "junk knowledge". Same thing with L-1A and O-1.

Source : [https://www.uscis.gov/working-united-states/temporary-
nonimm...](https://www.uscis.gov/working-united-states/temporary-nonimmigrant-
workers)

~~~
diebeforei485
It is junk knowledge to claim that something was never intended as a path to a
green card.

Congress clearly intended this it back in 2000, when it passed Public Law
106-313 ("American Competitiveness in the 21st Century Act"), which allowed
H-1B extensions beyond 6 years for those who are waiting for green cards. If
Congress didn't think the H-1B visa should be a path to a green card, why
would they pass that bill?

Also the government has recognized it many times through regulation. For
example, look at the number of times this regulation talks about a "path":
[https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2016/11/18/2016-27...](https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2016/11/18/2016-27540/retention-
of-eb-1-eb-2-and-eb-3-immigrant-workers-and-program-improvements-affecting-
high-skilled)

------
calvinbhai
I'm in my 30's, spent > 1/3rd of my life in the US. Got a Masters degree
before Obama was elected. Slogged enough, made enough personal sacrifices to
achieve what I have.

An employer who hired me based on a promise of EB greencard. Employer screwed
me at last moment by giving a lame excuse as to why the GC process stalled.

In the mean time, had saved up enough to put 20% down on a 500K+ home in N.E.
US. Had almost paid the booking fee. But wife's employer started giving the
deaf ear treatment when following up on the GC.

Now, we are all set to move to Canada in a month or two. Once we find jobs for
our respective fields (both are in good, in-demand tech jobs) we'll say good
bye to years of bonded labor and living in uncertainty.

So we will finally buy a house in a country which we can call home, without
ever thinking of being 'hopeless 3rd class residents of a country with no
hopes of citizenship'.

(I hope the Americans who can vote, will work towards fixing this system)

~~~
Latteland
I am an american, and I'm sick about what is happening. We are going to see a
real brain drain. In the top end tech market at least, there's a massive
shortage of people who can do bespoke software. Seattle has endless job
opportunities.

~~~
calvinbhai
Toronto/Vancouver will become extremely attractive for those wanting to come
up with startups, even for VCs to invest due to massive influx of high skilled
immigrants, with valuable knowledge from US work experience.

------
paxy
Sounds accurate. There is no realistic path to citizenship or even permanent
residency in the USA for highly skilled immigrants from India. While the high
salaries and quality of life are attractive for someone straight out of
college, you quickly realize that this isn't the place to be if you want to
buy a house, start a family, or make any other major life decision when you
could be asked to pack up and leave tomorrow for any or no reason.

~~~
fjsolwmv
That sounds great. Come to USA after college, make a million dollars in a few
years, move back home, get married, and build the Indian economy. You don't
want a country where every who has the ability will leave.

~~~
phakding
> That sounds great. Come to USA after college, make a million dollars in a
> few years, move back home, get married, and build the Indian economy

LOL. Your comment doesn't even pass smell taste. How many people working as
developers will make million dollars in few years after paying payroll taxes?
Federal, state, social security, medicare on top of paying for housing, car
insurance, health insurance, renter/house owner's insurance, trips back to
homeland etc etc. Forget about fun and entertainment, or clothes, shoes,
phones, computers, internet etc. Even with extreme level of penny pinching,
40% rate of saving is almost unachievable.

Now assuming every single immigrant that comes here after college makes $150
right off the bat, that $60K in bank every year. At that rate, to save million
dollars, one would need 16.66 years. That too assuming there are no
incidentals that become money pits.

Good luck getting married at almost 40 or getting uprooted and having to
adjust to the different work environment or progress in the industry without
any contacts. It's not all puppys and rainbows.

~~~
sheepmullet
> Even with extreme level of penny pinching, 40% rate of saving is almost
> unachievable.

Hah that’s a wealthy American point of view.

When I first moved to the US I was saving 85% of my after tax income.

Most (non-scam) Indian H1B holders I know are saving 6 figures a year.

~~~
phakding
I am one of those and almost everyone ( with exception of one or two every
class) in my masters programs we're on F1 Visa. Most of my friends work six
figure jobs in cities nowhere close to as expensive as Bay area. I know for a
fact, nobody has accumulated million dollars in cash. Close to million in
worth? Yes if you count real estate with mortgage, but not that kid of cash.
Math doesn't add up.

~~~
sheepmullet
> I know for a fact, nobody has accumulated million dollars in cash.

I agree, a million in a few years would be rare.

In 10 years though? It’s certainly reasonable.

~~~
phakding
Never said it's impossible. Is it practical though? If you are migrating to a
country 8000 miles away, would you live like you lived in the slums of
Dharavi? Some will. Most though, would like to live a normal life commensurate
with their income.

------
zeroxfe
As horrible as it sounds, in this specific respect, the current US
administration has been really fantastic for Canada. More and more new grads
are choosing to stay in the country and work with local tech companies, _and_
we're experiencing a reverse brain-drain like never before.

~~~
b1tr0t
From a Canadian viewpoint, the last couple of years of populism has been a bit
like discovering your favorite Uncle has a probably lethal opiate addiction.

But, you're going to get to inherit his Corvette.

~~~
emptybits
Canadian here also. I like your analogy. Opiates don't stop at national or
socio-economic boundaries.

So a prediction I hope I'm wrong about: We temporarily enjoy driving the bully
uncle's Corvette but soon find ourselves chasing the same dragon in it.

------
mabbo
As an Amazon employee, I really hope this factors in highly in the HQ2
decision.

Toronto isn't perfect and the city sure isn't offering much in terms of tax
breaks, but if Amazon wants to hire 50,000 more tech workers then they'd
better be doing so in a country that will let those 50,000 people work.

~~~
hocuspocus
I always believed that Toronto is a serious contender for the same reasons.

> the city sure isn't offering much in terms of tax breaks

Does it matter that much, though? As an insider you probably know better than
me, but I assume that the lower cost of employment per head in Toronto would
easily offset any kind of tax break.

~~~
mabbo
I tell everyone the same thing: I don't know any specific details more than
anyone else. But what I do know is how Amazon operates and makes decisions:
via data, not feelings.

My guess is that there are two teams. One has spent the last few years (long
before the HQ2 announcement) building an incredible formula that estimates the
expected return over the next 25 years for opening HQ2 in a given city, given
these 100+ variables. The second team is collecting those 100+ variables for
each city, maybe making analyses on cities to make better estimates on what
those numbers look like.

The decision will then boil down to the city with the highest number popping
out of the formula.

That's what I would expect from Amazon at least. I have no actual knowledge of
what the process really is. Then again, after the Fire Phone fiasco it's clear
not all of Amazon's decisions are made this way.

------
tick_tock_tick
Canada's aggressively merit based immigration policy has clear advantages in
terms of allowing talent in. That said Canadian tech firms still pay way too
little.

~~~
GFischer
Indeed, the reason I don't consider moving to Canada is that the areas where
I'd like to live are too expensive and salaries too low for the high cost of
living, mostly housing (I already can't purchase a house where I live but at
least I can hope to, I'd be priced out even worse in Canada).

~~~
refurb
Toronto and Vancouver housing prices aren't that much lower than the Bay area.
However, it does look like the trend is downward in those two cities at the
moment.

------
___cs____
Canada/Australia have thriving scene, but somehow the number of jobs is really
low.

There was a nice discussion on reddit about brain drain to Australia/Canada.

[https://www.reddit.com/r/cscareerquestions/comments/9l1pug/w...](https://www.reddit.com/r/cscareerquestions/comments/9l1pug/which_country_has_a_thriving_tech_scene_for_a/)
[https://www.reddit.com/r/startups/comments/9l3ueo/which_coun...](https://www.reddit.com/r/startups/comments/9l3ueo/which_country_has_a_thriving_tech_scene_for_a/)

~~~
vthallam
Usually, jobs follow. Big companies already use Canada as a bench for foreign
workers who couldn't get the H1-B through lottery.

In the last couple months, I heard 2 big announcements, Microsoft establishing
their Canada HQ[0] in Toronto, Uber [1] is investing big time.

[0] - [https://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2018/09/11/microsoft-
canadian-...](https://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2018/09/11/microsoft-canadian-
headquarters_a_23524349/)

[1] - [https://techvibes.com/2018/09/13/uber-expands-canadian-
prese...](https://techvibes.com/2018/09/13/uber-expands-canadian-presence-
with-200-million-investment)

[2] -
[https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-07-24/toronto-b...](https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-07-24/toronto-
beats-bay-area-in-new-tech-jobs-and-new-york-in-talent)

~~~
qaq
Yep my friend in Ukraine got an offer from one of US tech giants the process
is if they can't secure H1B they just move people to Canada.

------
dmode
I am in the same boat. Planning to move to Canada next year. I have worked in
the Valley for 10 years. Had a great time, but unfortunately the wait for GC
is over 20 years now and the administration has signaled that we are not
welcome (my H1 was denied for some BS reasons).

~~~
trhway
I guess the people like you have been stealing good American jobs and
depressing wages in the Bay Area, and that has been keeping the wages at the
artificially low 400K :)

~~~
calvinbhai
first half starts to look like a troll comment, and it's probably too late for
those down voting to realize the sarcasm which is apparent in the second half
of your comment :D

------
bitL
Dunno. Salary in Silicon Valley - $300k. Salary in Vancouver - $80k. Rent
almost the same. Weather in Silicon Valley - year-round sunny. Weather in
Vancouver - 2 months of sun, rest gloomy. Are you sure you want to move to
Canada?

It used to be that MS/AMZN had a back up base in Vancouver for anyone who
didn't make the cut with H1B/O-1.

~~~
aprdm
Why are you comparing an extreme high salary in SF to an average salary in
Vancouver?

~~~
closeparen
$300k is a high salary but a perfectly ordinary total comp in the Bay Area
(with the caveat that $100-150k of it may be illiquid for a few years).

~~~
aprdm
If you work at FAANG like companies surely

------
JumpCrisscross
Isn't compensation, even after adjusting for cost of living and health
insurance, much lower in Canada than anywhere in the U.S.?

~~~
Thaxll
Most people don't care about money, they want to raise family in a safe
environment, I interview a lot of foreigners and there is clear trend that
they don't want to go to the US with the current administration.

~~~
martin_iden
That sounds great, I welcome less competition on the job market. Btw I've
lived in Toronto before, have a family there and know the tech scene pretty
well. If people didn't care about money and job satisfaction, you would not
have that many Canadians here in SV. Most of the ones I talked too would like
to go back at one point, but career prospects are very bleak. One would need
to take a massive paycut and face fierce competition for a few available jobs
out there. I know decent engineers making 70-90K which is essentially living
paycheck to paycheck.

~~~
Consultant32452
Just to provide context to that 70-90k range, median household income in
Toronto is $78k.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Median_household_incom...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Median_household_income_of_cities_in_Canada)

------
otalp
I suppose my comments from yesterdays thread about "Cheap places to live with
a good intellectual atmosphere" is relevant:

I did the math for Toronto(which is more expensive than Montreal, and about
the same as Vancouver).

For a typical software engineer, taxes take away 25% of gross pay in Ontario
while it's over 30% in California and New York. Cost of living is much less(by
30-40% if you rent) in Toronto compared to Cali/New York. Of course, you will
also earn 40% less in USD. So it about evens out. The site Hired.com came to
similar conclusions that I've attached in an image below [2]

To go into more detail, According to numbeo[1] which crowdsources data,
groceries and restaurants are 20% cheaper(adjusted for currency) in Toronto,
but of course the salary is more than 20% lower. But the real kicker is the
rent, and while Toronto rent is definitely increasing, it is nowhere close to
NYC of Silicon Valley levels, and most sources do say you have to pay 50% more
for an equivalent apartment in NYC.

Also according to my calculations from the data on numbeo, the equivalent of
(pre-tax) $135,000 USD in NYC is $110,000 CAD in Toronto. It is of course
easier to get 135k in NYC than 110k in Toronto, but the difference isn't
nearly as big as the CAD/USD differences and wage gap makes it seem. And if
you can get a job in the Waterloo-Kitchenner area, CoL of course plummets.
Freelancing for clients in the US or working remotely also has great
advantages.

If you're a US citizen, I don't think Canada or Toronto is enticing enough to
drag you away - especially with places like Seattle, Austin and Colorado being
better than SV and NYC in terms of Salary:CoL. But if you're not, Canada is
comfortably the second best company to be a software engineer in, and the
expected expansion of Amazon, Google and Microsoft in Toronto is likely to
create a lot more high paying jobs and new startups in the coming years,
especially with the US's anti-immigration stance basically making it
impossible for Indians and the Chinese to get permanent residency.

The excellent universities and industry leading research in AI of UToronto and
UWaterloo is a bonus if you're a student as well.

[1][https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-
living/compare_cities.jsp?cou...](https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-
living/compare_cities.jsp?cou..).

[2] [http://www.planetweb.ca/wp-
content/uploads/2017/04/img4-7ee8...](http://www.planetweb.ca/wp-
content/uploads/2017/04/img4-7ee8fd629baac34d01d5dcb2af9c95973137e2bebefc917c29f35292b23b67c5.png)

~~~
jszymborski
Overall, I agree with your points, but I have some points of contention with
some of the analysis.

I don't think it's quite fair to include tax if you're not going to include
savings for things like health care.

Furthermore, Toronto's housing market, while less expensive than Cali/NY, is
still insane. I know you acknowledge this in passing, but Montreal's housing
market is insanely affordable, and we've a great tech/uni scene.

Immigration to Quebec, might be getting harder for non-Canadians w/ our new
provincial gov't, however.

~~~
docker_up
There isn't much savings in terms of health care. In Ontario, if you're
working you have to pay a health care tax that is similar to what an employee
would pay at a Silicon Valley company. And then the health care is much worse
in terms of responsiveness. For example, I have Kaiser, and my Canadians
friends are envious at how quickly I get scheduled for procedures. My family
and friends have had to wait months for some procedures or tests.

~~~
f6e9ed793b
> In Ontario, if you're working you have to pay a health care tax that is
> similar to what an employee would pay at a Silicon Valley company.

You must be comparing California monthly costs to Ontario yearly costs.
Maximum Ontario _annual_ premiums are $900.[1] To get equivalent coverage (by
equivalent, I mean in terms of insurance value - as in, I won't have a $15,000
copay if I get into a serious accident) from Kaiser in Southern California
(the "silver" plan) is about $750 _per month_ for me and my wife. If you are
covered through your employer (we both freelance), you might be getting fooled
into thinking you are paying less money because your paychecks show a smaller
number as "deducted," but that is because the rest is paid by your employer
and is still part of your compensation.

[1] [https://www.ontario.ca/data/ontario-health-premium-
rates](https://www.ontario.ca/data/ontario-health-premium-rates)

~~~
refurb
Don't forget prescription drug coverage in Ontario if you have to buy your own
insurance.

Hell, in BC, the gov't plan has a $4000 deductible if you make more than
$100,000.

~~~
Scoundreller
Almost all professional employers include prescription drug coverage as a part
of their standard benefits package.

The $4k deductible in BC (which is similar in Ontario), provides catastrophic
drug coverage for those that don't have drug coverage (e.g. contracts).

------
NTDF9
I don't think US realizes that Canada and Australia are actively poaching
talent. These guys work there for a couple of years, some of them start
startups, businesses. They hire other top people (both local and talented
immigrants). Then they sell their products/services to the whole world!

Major companies get attracted to areas with talent. That's why so so many
companies have major offices in India now. Because of the pool of talent. Not
just because of cost-cutting.

An example is: If Amazon doesn't hire enough smart people, they won't be able
to expand/move nimbly and will get beaten by Flipkart in India (who have their
own empire desires).

------
echan00
True story, I know of many skilled folks who moved to Canada because residency
in the U.S was just too painful.

~~~
chocolatebunny
For what it's worth, I know many skilled folks (myself included) who moved
from Canada to the US because there are more job prospects with significantly
higher pay. I hope all these people make Canada more competitive since I'd
like to move back at some point but right now, the US is more cost effective
if you can get in.

~~~
echan00
Yes, that is also true. Its why I'm still in the Bay Area.

------
sublupo
This sounds weird but I've wondered something. Since California is a sanctuary
state, can't workers come over with H1B and then simply not leave when the
Visa expires?

~~~
timewarrior
I would not recommend this.

Couple of issues:

1\. You might want to visit your family in home country. How do you enter
back.

2\. CBP can put a border check point anywhere 100 miles from a border. Which
covers most of California (land and sea border) including SF. If you get
caught in one, your would be arrested and deported.

3\. If you overstay for more than 6 months you are banned from US for 3 years.
If you overstay for more than 1 year, you are banned from entering US for 10
years.

4\. Government knows that you are overstaying. They can also easily find out
about your bank accounts, health insurance, doctor visits, kids going to
school. They could apprehend you if they want to. It could start by sending
you a NTA (Notice to Appear). Once you get an NTA, you can't even leave the
country on your own terms without triggering a re-entry bar.

5\. Most good employers won't give you a job without a work authorization.

Sadly, what you had suggested has been the life story of all the undocumented
workers in US. And it is really tough. I know H1-B has it bad, but it is
nothing compared to what the undocumented workers have been going through.
When you live in the shadows and under fear of law enforcement for a big part
of your life, it can mess up with your mental health. I wish there is a good
outcome for them.

Unfortunately the low skilled undocumented workers don't have much options in
life. But I am not sure why someone who is educated and skilled, would subject
themselves to such a life. Just go somewhere else!

~~~
sublupo
Thank you for that information

------
aprdm
As a software engineer who wanted to leave my country I read how H-1B worked
and removed US from my list of wanted countries.

I am a PR in Canada and got it after have worked here for 1 year.

I have friends who worked with me at previous company in the US division
living in fear of getting their lives taken away from them if the company
fires them and they are in a huge waiting list for green card (mostly Indian
and Chinese) and don't want to change jobs because of fear.

~~~
calvinbhai
You took the best decision. It's not worth even a million dollars per year, if
living in the US means bonded labor. The amount of stress that comes along
with it is mind numbing.

------
gyani95
The UK is an amazing place as well if you are looking for tech jobs outside of
Asia.

Almost all major companies have offices her plus a decent startup scene.

~~~
otalp
It's also nearly impossible to permanently migrate to

~~~
thewarrior
Why’s that ? Asking as someone on a tier 2 visa ? I thought I could get a
residency in 5 years ?

Or are you saying the visa itself is too hard to get ?

------
jorblumesea
I wonder how much of this is just the political winds. Under the George Bush
days there were similar sentiments and attitudes, but it never went anywhere
and SV still remained dominant. Canada has long tried to capitalize on the US
political situation with mixed results.

Salaries are low, most of Canada has poor weather and unaffordable housing
prices in the major cities. I guess if you're willing to stick it out you get
citizenship, but a far less valuable citizenship compared to other western
countries.

I'm also curious as to if and when the immigration situation is going to hit
Canadian politics as it did in the US. The facade of being pro immigration is
exactly that, there are just as many racists in Canada as there are in the US.

~~~
adventured
The US hands out one million green cards per year. There has not been a
meaningful reduction in how much immigration is allowed into the US nor in how
many green cards are issued. You'll notice something entirely missing from the
article: there are no actual figures supporting its claims anywhere to be
found, only a few individual anecdotes.

What's happening is Canada is trying to become more aggressive in the pursuit
of tech immigrants that are tired of waiting for US citizenship. It's a
sensible plan on their part, and the US can afford the loss. The US isn't
suffering from a tech employee deficit, despite the propaganda out of the big
tech companies that want cheaper labor. The tech giants are all generating
obscene profits, and they can all afford to pay very high salaries.

Microsoft + Google + Facebook + Amazon + Intel + Apple = ~$165 billion in
likely 2019 profit. Excuse me while I cry over their labor costs.

The Trump Admin + Republican Congress have barely changed anything in relation
to immigration. The major immigration legislation speaks for itself: there
hasn't been any. And the Democrats are about to take back to the House.

The biggest complaint you'll see, is that there's a long wait time, which
illustrates the extreme demand for US citizenship, as the rate of green card
issuance hasn't declined.

~~~
lawtguy
There's been no legislative change, but the the Trump administration appears
to be enforcing the rules as strictly as possible. Per this article from
Marketplace ([https://www.marketplace.org/2018/10/05/business/recent-
immig...](https://www.marketplace.org/2018/10/05/business/recent-immigration-
policy-moves-vex-us-workers-abroad)), they've ended expedited processing of
H-1Bs, they're questioning more H-1B applications and they're denying more
H-1B applications. They are definitely making it as hard as possible for H-1Bs
within the current rules.

------
CodeSheikh
While many in the comments are throwing salary/cost of living/taxes numbers
left and right but no one is making a case for extreme winters in Canada vs
the Bay Area. I can understand that it might not mean a lot to some but for me
it can be a deal breaker.

~~~
dubya123
Hmm yeah hard winters or having your spouse deported. Hard choice.

~~~
GhostVII
I feel like the number of tech people who legitimately worry about their
spouse being deported is extremely small. And it's only two years until the
next election anyways.

~~~
dubya123
I think that gives little reassurance.

~~~
GhostVII
Well your initial point was that people will put up with Canada's cold winters
to avoid having their spouse deported. I don't think that is a realistic
scenario (and if your spouse is an illegal immigrant, I seriously doubt Canada
would let the immigrate).

------
8f2ab37a-ed6c
Are people with GCs screwed too? I've been postponing getting a citizenship,
for no particular reason, but I'm now wondering if I should get on that just
so that I don't somehow get bounced out of the country or get locked outside
when I travel.

~~~
fjsolwmv
Green Card has a risk of deportation that citizenship does not. But the
current administration is working to make citizenship revocable.

~~~
btilly
_But the current administration is working to make citizenship revocable._

I firmly believe that the current administration would love to change the
rules on citizenship. However the 14th amendment is extremely clear on this,
and the courts have consistently ruled for decades that Congress and the
President do not have the right to change the laws to strip citizenship from
people. (This was extensively litigated over laws against dual citizenship.)

Therefore it is no more reasonable to fear the current administration making
citizenship revocable than to fear the previous administration taking all the
guns away.

~~~
d1zzy
I would say that it heavily depends on the current justices in the supreme
court. With the current court composition I wouldn't say that both of those
issues have equal risk of being revoked.

~~~
btilly
The current court makes this one pretty safe.

The most recent decision relevant to this topic was
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maslenjak_v._United_States](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maslenjak_v._United_States)
in 2017. It was a 9-0 decision that a naturalized citizen who had made minor
errors of fact in their citizenship declaration couldn't have their
citizenship stripped because of that.

Between _stare decisis_ and how solidly the court has been in protecting
citizenship, this principle is not in any sort of trouble any time soon.

------
hourislate
This is going to be unpopular but Canadian Ex pat here,

If you're ok with making 1/3 the money you'd make in the US, have 1/10th the
opportunity, put up with really expensive living conditions and really awful
weather, Canada is the place for you....

I left and never looked back. It just doesn't make any sense to even consider
returning. Many of my friends have fled to the US because of the incredibly
high taxes, sub standard medical care, high cost of living, etc for NYC, DFW,
CA, NC, etc.

For H1B types coming from a 3rd world country it would probably feel like
heaven but for regular folks the statistics prove otherwise, Canadians are
leaving or would like to leave to work in the USA.

Just saying...

------
known
Since India is the most racist country in the world many qualified/talented
people are leaving it.

[https://businesstech.co.za/news/lifestyle/116644/the-most-
ra...](https://businesstech.co.za/news/lifestyle/116644/the-most-racist-
countries-in-the-world/)

[http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2325502/Map-shows-
wo...](http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2325502/Map-shows-worlds-
racist-countries-answers-surprise-you.html)

------
nimbius
glad to see tech workers are getting the same benefit we've had in the skilled
trade industty for nearly 40 years.

I'm a master level certified diesel mechanic, and the immigration group I
qualify for is nearly instantaneous as well. Saskatoon province mining jobs
pay about 4x what i make currently in the states.

If you're a long haul truck driver, welder, pipefitter or plumber, the biggest
hurtle to getting into canada is picking which canadian beer you like to drink
after a days work.

------
jiveturkey
[https://outline.com/a3szHf](https://outline.com/a3szHf)

------
mitul_45
I'm an Indian living in Amsterdam just because of these immigration rules.

My spouse is an Architect and she won't be able to work in the US due to H4
rules and in Canada because they don't accept the academic credentials for her
foreign university. I find Europe a little better option in that regard.

------
olivierlacan
I'm curious if anybody here has quality data for USCIS' processing speed on
H-1B and other work-based immigration visas. USCIS provides [aggregate
statistics for previous years and
quarters]([https://www.uscis.gov/tools/reports-studies/immigration-
form...](https://www.uscis.gov/tools/reports-studies/immigration-forms-
data/data-set-all-uscis-application-and-petition-form-types)) but it's very
difficult to isolate that data to a specific form type (for example I-129 for
H-1B).

Common known resources like [http://visadoor.com](http://visadoor.com) and
[https://www.visajourney.com/content/times/](https://www.visajourney.com/content/times/)
have incredibly low quality, out of date, or just plain insufficient to get
any idea for:

\- how many I-129 forms were received and processed by each of the USCIS
service centers (California, Nebraska, Vermont) that handle them?

\- how many of those forms already resulted in denials, approvals, or requests
for evidence?

\- what is the throughput of each USCIS service centers?

Does anyone know where such information is available from a public or private
source?

It seems clear that the California service center is completely overwhelmed
this year with an ever-growing processing window (from the date of receipt
notice, not even the date of first submission to USCIS) that has now reached
6.5 to 8.5 months to process I-129 petitions for a Nonimmigrant Worker (see
[https://egov.uscis.gov/processing-times/](https://egov.uscis.gov/processing-
times/)).

This means that if an H-1B petitioner received an offer from a U.S.-based
company, applied with said company in early April 2018, got through the 1 in 5
lottery odds and received notice from USCIS a few weeks later in May 2018,
it's very likely they won't be able to start working until November or January
2019. Nearly a full year after initiating the process with their prospective
employer. Assuming said employer was able to hold the position open for a full
year.

I'm of course ignoring the time it would take after receiving USCIS approval
for the I-129/H-1B petition to schedule an embassy interview in one's home
country, send the passeport for visa stamping, and relocate to the U.S. Which
could easily add another month to the ordeal.

Comparatively the Nebraska service center has a processing window of 2 to 4
months, and the Vermont service center 4 to 6 months but I suspect these
centers can only handle a fraction of the cases the California service center
can. I've seen mentions on Twitter of case transfers from one service center
to another but nothing USCIS announced publicly, meaning there is no way for a
petitioner to know where their case is actually being processed.

More importantly, it's virtually impossible to tell wether how deep someone is
in the processing queue, which could lead someone to withdraw and apply to
another work visa (like O-1). Let's not even talk about the case where one
would consider a new employer while in the U.S. under an existing H-1B since
the processing time appear to be just as lengthy. USCIS has also proudly
canceled its usual premium processing fees for the stated purpose of
"resorbing the backlog" (so far, unsuccessfully) until at least January 2019
which means even if your company needs you to start earlier and is willing to
pay the price to expedite the process, they can't. So not only are you stuck
waiting to work with a prospective employer for upwards of a year (or more)
but then it will take (an already approved nonimmigrant worker) another 6.5 to
8.9 months (or more) to be able to start working at another company.

People throw around phrases like "indentured servitude" far too easily for my
taste, but just imagine having to wait a year to start a new job you've
already applied to and signed an offer for, losing opportunities for raises,
experience, networking, and advancement in the process. All the while knowing
that you'll be essentially stuck in the job unless you're lucky enough to find
another company willing to sponsor you again, wait for the lengthy transfer,
and hopefully not be let go by your current employer (and unique provider of
the right to remain in the country) in the meantime.

~~~
throwaway82729
This is exactly what I posted a while back about my situation -
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17938307](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17938307).
I turn down VP Eng roles almost every day and internally cry every time I do
it. I also know that I won't get these opportunities, to work on cutting edge
technology with great peers, in other places.

------
hosh
Hmm. And let's see. One of the world's top research for AI is in Canada ...

~~~
screye
Yep, Montreal is slowly becoming an AI hub.

Microsoft has already opened their AI research branch in Montreal. Google
Brain is in Montreal too.

I can see it becoming a more popular spot as time goes on.

------
madmax108
One of my friends recently got his Permanent Residency from Canada for a job
he has just gotten there.

What is the difference between a PR and citizenship? Is there any difference
in what the country owes the individual or vice versa in either?

~~~
to_bpr
You can't vote in Canada unless you've citizenship. You've to be physically
present in Canada 3 years of every five to retain PR, not so with citizenship.

------
dilippkumar
As someone who is contemplating this move, I can share some thoughts.

First, money isn’t the force that’s driving immigrants out of India and into
the US, Canada etc. Among the people I know and including myself, the top
driving forces are safety, good governance, clean air and water.

While living in the US has the benefit of higher pay, it comes at a
significant cost. Here is a short list of things I can not do while on a H1-b
visa: Make and sell art, perform for an audience, publish on a blog or a
youtube channel that’s monetized, mine dogecoin, tutor students in India or
any country online, trade stocks at a frequency that someone might consider
“day trading” etc.

It’s true that all of these have a common theme that they all generate some
sort of income. However, for most of us, the income isn’t the driving force.
All of us have a drive to express ourselves creatively and do fun things once
in a while (mine dogecoin), the implications of the current green card wait is
that we can’t participate in any of these for decades.

Canada is very appealing because of the hassle free immigration process. Once
in Canada, there is liberty to pursue hobbies. These come with benefits of
safety, good governance and clean air/water.

The lower pay is a very minor price for getting all of this.

~~~
techie128
I have 3 offers to write books. I, unfortunately, cannot do that due to the
H-1B visa restriction. I have been in US legally for over a decade, making
350K+ annually. Our HH income is 700K USD. Before someone jumps in and say but
why don't you apply for a EB5 greencard, it's not so simple either. It is 600K
(500K + legal and other fees) of my hard earned money down the drain with ZERO
certainty of a greencard for YEARS. I would rather go to Canada when my spouse
cannot work here any more (H4 EAD Revocation) than to continue contributing to
the US economy where people like us are not cared for.

~~~
nambit
How does your wife get to 350K+ annually on an H4? That's insane.

~~~
timewarrior
It’s not really insane. Many a times, there are skilled spouses who can’t get
an H1 because of lottery or some other issue. My spouse had an illustrious
career in India and did an MBA in US. She made a lot more than 350k per year
and she was on H4 too.

One of my friend’s spouse is a Director in a company. Her company screwed up
her Green Card. So she couldn’t extend her H1 beyond 6 years. She had to move
to H4 too.

~~~
NTDF9
> Her company screwed up her Green Card. So she couldn’t extend her H1 beyond
> 6 years. She had to move to H4 too

What was the screw up?

------
saudioger
I know multiple people who've even started turning down invites to visit the
US (for conferences) because of the current administration... I think part of
is fear of what _could_ happen under Trump even more so than what's happened
so far.

------
manicksurya
is there something which all the h1b holders together can do?

------
sunstone
Well Toronto is definitely cooler than California.

------
t1o5
This news has to be taken with a pinch of salt. Not everyone moves to Canada
after they get a residency thru the Express Entry system. The majority of them
do something called "soft landing" to activate their permanent resident card
and go back to US the same day. They use Canada as a plan B if something
happens with their greencard process in future. This is actually detrimental
for other eligible people who have applied for express entry because H1Bs fill
the top layers of the express entry system and thus the permanent residence
permits go wasted because H1Bs don't come to stay in Canada.

Québec is an exception here and do not follow merit based system. So the
immigrants coming in Québec are not skilled or employable and is a burden to
Canadians. On the other hand, skilled applicants in Québec are waiting 4-5
years for a permit from Québec because Quebec do not follow merit system. The
new CAQ leader is also against immigration and has vowed to cut down
immigration. So any startups planning to have an office should be aware of
this. Québec IT employers are struggling to find talents because of the
dysfunctional immigration department of Québec.

Now the highly regarded global talent stream is only applicable to large
employers.

Startups still have to go the hard way. Getting an LMIA work permit will take
3-6 months and renewing it will also take the same amount of time.

Overall, Canada's Express Entry system is a merit based system. But the
candidates do not need to prove their technical skills. Anyone with a
Bachleor's degree, a good command of English and 3 years of work experience
can get a residency in Canada. This doesn't necessarily mean there is talent.
Moreover, a talented international worker might travel to many countries, so
if you are an applicant who have travelled to many countries, 6 months express
entry time do not apply, Canada will put you thru something called Security
Screening which can last 1 to 2 years.

So the 6 months timeline are for people who haven't travelled a lot or worked
at many countries. It's just for a less experienced Bachelor degree holder
with a good command of English. Do not come to Canada for the money, salaries
are not that great. Toronto and Vancouver housing prices are pumped up thanks
to Quebec's money for citizenship scheme. Québec immigration is dysfunctional,
so good luck finding talents in Montreal for your startup.

~~~
Scoundreller
> The majority of them do something called "soft landing" to activate their
> permanent resident card and go back to US the same day. They use Canada as a
> plan B if something happens with their greencard process in future.

This only buys a maximum of 3 years of insurance (from date of landing). After
that, unless you're living with a Canadian citizen spouse, you'll lose PR
unless you move to Canada.

------
kevin_thibedeau
> As the administration of President Donald Trump has increased scrutiny of
> H-1B visas

Has it? All that has been done is a study of potential H-1B reforms that is
still under way. I'd bet that nothing changes in the next two years. The
puppet masters wouldn't want it any other way.

~~~
neofrommatrix
Unfortunately, it has. The process is now more opaque, and it’s taking longer
to get an approval. The number of requests for evidence has increased by close
to 40%. There seems to be a deliberate attempt to frustrate legal immigrants
out of the US, or at least, it feels like it. This is anecdotal, but I
personally know 4 families that threw in the towel and moved to Canada. So,
yes, in terms of policy, nothing’s changed, but they have increased the
overall level of frustration.

On top of that, this has scared off a lot of companies from even looking at
H1-Bs while hiring.

~~~
singhrk
Second that. I am a legal immigrant. Been in US for 5+yrs. Work in a FAANG
company. Have a valid work permit (h1b) till 2021. Came back to home country
for stamping, now my case is in administrative processing for 4+ months.
House/Job/Child Education, all impacted because of this.

~~~
vthallam
Sorry to hear that. Are you still in India waiting for your visa to be
processed? Know the reason for administrative processing?

~~~
singhrk
yeah still here. No reason given. Reached out to customer service several
times but no conclusive update on (a) why my case is in admin processing (b)
how long will it take to get resolved (c) at what status is it currently.

Its just a painful endless wait, which can get over in a few days or in worst
case in more than a year

------
pteredactyl
I generally believe we should try harder to educate and hire Americans.

I am not against immigrants or H1B holders. Or anyone trying to improve their
lot in life.

I am against the position H1B holders are in. And the effects it can have on a
culture. Especially with the force multiplier of technology.

They are basically indentured servants. And therefore more likely to do
whatever their boss wants, including morally suspect things. Like buy and sell
American's privacy. Speak out or resist? You'll need to on a plane out of the
country in 6 days.

I'm not saying this is a product of a particular race/ethnicity/identity. The
moral suspectness. But rather the product of the position. Most everyone in
that position would behave in similar ways to keep their position. Sometimes
at all cost. Don't get it twisted.

So to me, the reasonable options are to either cut back on the program, or
give H1B holders more rights.

~~~
tabtab
Companies don't want to train: they want Instant Workers. Often they want
combinations of skills that are unlikely to be had by any one individual. They
want version X of the database, vendor Y of the IDE, vendor Z of the network,
etc. Shopping the world increases the chances of fitting their desired skill
combo via shere probability; it has almost nothing to do with training. Think
about it.

~~~
pteredactyl
I agree. And for the companies it makes sense to not want to train. I'm saying
the onus is not on them. But on the US education system. K-12 and beyond.

~~~
tabtab
That won't work either for the "combo-hunting" problem. One cannot predict
specific company combos ahead of time when in school. Plus, companies want
practical experience, not classwork experience. I'm at a loss for an easy to
way to explain the "combo problem" at the moment.

~~~
pteredactyl
Fair but why should a certain nation or place be better at solving the combo
problem than another?

~~~
tabtab
I'm not quite sure what you mean. And often there's no reciprocal "combo-
hunting" because of labor rates. India in general does not want "reverse"
H1B's, for example. The US pays more than India such that Indians are more
likely to want to participate in USA's labor pool than vice versa because
Indian wages would be small if exported/returned to the USA.

------
csomar
Is it really true, however? Or my experience is an outlier? I have been issued
a 10 year tourism/business visa to the USA. The interviewer asked me a couple
questions and then said "Your visa is approved". She didn't ask for any paper
work. No kidding. I got the interview booked, interview and the visa/passport
in the same week. The process was flawless and the employees very friendly.

I know a few others in my social circle who setup shop in the US when they
wanted to move there. None of them complained about the "waiting time" but
there were complaints about the costs and legal expenses to process
visas/green cards.

So is it really that bad in the US? Because as far as it is now for me this is
way better than Europe. Also no other country has a green card lottery where
they arbitrarily give 55k random citizens a Green Card. I have been applying
to the Green Card lottery for around 10 years. I almost thought this will be
their rejection reason for my visa.

I think the US gets lots of hate but so far is the best country of the bunch.
I might be wrong but will be doing more business and lots of travel to the US
so it will either confirm my bias or reverse it.

~~~
otto2
Your visa is essentially a visitor visa. You are not authorized to work in USA
- you can visit for business while being paid by foreign entity.

It is very different from H1B visa that is tied to a specific employer.

~~~
csomar
I understand that. But my point is that the process was way easier, faster and
better than most European countries, Canada or the UK. For the same type of
visa.

~~~
zaptheimpaler
Getting a green card or citizenship is much much harder in the US than Canada.
It may very well be easier to get a tourist visa, but that doesn't mean
anything in the context of green cards.

