

Memoto Lifelogging Camera - hising
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/martinkallstrom/memoto-lifelogging-camera

======
mike-cardwell
"All pictures you transfer to Memoto’s cloud service are stored encrypted. The
pictures are only visible to you: only you can see them and only you can
change them."

Is this _real_ client side encryption, or is it Dropbox/Hushmail style
encryption where they can do a little server side trickery in order to obtain
your encryption key if the US government compels them to?

I'm just thinking how useful it would be to law enforcement if they could just
specify a location, date and time and go through pictures taken there for
evidence.

I hate this whole idea. It's inevitable that it will happen, but I hate it
nonetheless. You wont be able to go outdoors without being constantly recorded
by strangers. My only hope is that the popular services manage the technology
such that we don't end up with databases that governments, or organisations
can read private data from.

~~~
jadzhor
Our goal is that all your data will be encrypted and completely secure from
the point that they leave your camera until you view them in the
app/website/etc. The images would only be your to decrypt and we would have no
access to your key, only you will be able to view your images, unless you
share them ofc.

Our biggest concerns at the moment is partly how we can implement effective
encryption/decryption that won't drain the battery life of your phone or
decrease the user experience. Another concern is what will happen if the user
loses their password? If we have no possibility to access a users encrypted
data then their data would be lost in this case. We would also need to decrypt
and reencrypt all data if the user changes password, something that would be
very time/battery consuming if done on the device, instead of our servers.

These concerns are something that we are evaluating solutions to as we speak,
our goal is to make it impossible for anyone but you to access your private,
aka. not shared, data. If you have any suggestions we are of course happy to
hear them.

/Dan Berglund, Software Developer @ Memoto

~~~
mike-cardwell
The most important thing you need to do is to make your implementation
completely transparent and publicly available. Data doesn't get more personal
and private than the data you will be storing.

Simply saying that you encrypt data is not enough. People need to know who has
the keys and who is able to get access to the keys if they need to.

Also, if the images can be viewed in a webpage, then they're not encrypted as
far as I'm concerned. Even if you use client side javascript to handle the
decryption, you can be compelled to modify that javascript for a particular
user to obtain their key/password next time they log in.

"We would also need to decrypt and reencrypt all data if the user changes
password"

This depends if you are using a key derived from the password. Or if you are
using a randomly generated key that is encrypted using a key derived from the
password. With the latter, you would only need to re-encrypt the randomly
generated key. Not the entire data set.

I understand that usability is important for your business case. Just don't
forget how sensitive the data is that you will be collecting and how ripe for
abuse it is if you don't secure it fully.

I also think that you should open source your client software. If not, I'd be
concerned that at some point you'll be forced to put back doors in it to get
at peoples keys.

------
crucialfelix
The life recorder is inevitable. I mean full video and audio. I've been
talking about it for decades. The social and psychological shift is going to
be huge. Are you self conscious when somebody is following you around taking
pictures ? This thing will bug everybody out. The first adopters will be
security and police (who already do it with their car based video). Then
narcissists and people who want to have their own vanity tv show 247. And
annoying tech dudes who wear it at parties.

many people will realize how boring their lives look from the outside and they
will stop wearing it because it's depressing.

Anyway, the tech isn't the hard problem, it's the analysis, information
overload and personal search engine industry. Many companies including my own
are skating towards that puck.

~~~
vitovito
What is your company working on?

As far as I know, no academic research or even rumored corporate research is
going into useful, consumer-oriented (meaning able to provide meaningful value
to the user with minimal curation and/or improving their quality of life),
management of life-recording amounts of video. Most aren't even touching
audio.

Audio recording is usually legally restricted under wiretapping laws. Video
recording is even dicier, not just with laws varying wildly from state to
state, but also with individual privacy and image rights laws coming into
play. It's why all the researchers are sticking to photography, unless you're
the military, when the rules don't apply to you.

The only researcher who's done any work, as far as I know, into handling that
much video and audio is Deb Roy, with his timeworms visualizations, and that's
only because it was his own household that he was able to clear an IRB. And
it's still not useful by my previous definition.

You've been able to do all-day life-recording for under $1000 since the
mid-2000s: <http://www.eyetap.org/wearables/wear-hard-06/2006420.html> and
<http://www.eyetap.org/wearables/wear-hard-06/2006423.html> for mailing list
posts I wrote on the subject.

You can do it today for around $200, but the six years since I wrote those
posts, we still don't have the tools to process that much data.

I'd be interested in learning more about your work, and may be able to share
some of my own.

~~~
crucialfelix
[http://news.cnet.com/8301-17852_3-57527545-71/samsung-
tries-...](http://news.cnet.com/8301-17852_3-57527545-71/samsung-tries-to-
patent-the-story-of-your-life/?part=rss&subj=news&tag=title)

Samsung patent:

"The analysis unit analyzes the log information collected from the information
collection unit and decides at least one topic representing the user's daily
life information."

meaning cell phones

also Gordon Bell's book

[http://www.wired.com/culture/culturereviews/magazine/17-09/p...](http://www.wired.com/culture/culturereviews/magazine/17-09/pl_print)

~~~
vitovito
Gordon Bell's testbed was outstripped by the possible data collection years
ago, and he's admitted he rarely did anything with his archives after
collecting what he did, serving more as a reference library for others.

That Samsung patent sure is interesting, though. The US filing of March 31,
2012 is interesting, too, as I started work on something similar in February
(I see their foreign patents are from last year).

You might be interested in this (rather large, dated, from May) slide deck PDF
of what I'm looking into:
[http://s3.amazonaws.com/vitorio/Automated%20Storytelling%20M...](http://s3.amazonaws.com/vitorio/Automated%20Storytelling%20May%202012.pdf)

Feel free to contact me, links are in my profile.

~~~
crucialfelix
Cool, the slide deck was interesting. I saved your links.

The Samsung thing sounds like it could just choose a likely significant event
and make it into a story. it could be extremely lame and unworthy of a patent.
it could be entirely as combat move against apple.

------
stfu
Wouldn't it be easier to modify something like the already incredibly cheap
(~$10) available key chain cameras? There are already quite sophisticated
discussions on these out there <http://www.chucklohr.com/808/index.shtml>.

~~~
jonmrodriguez
From a hardware standpoint, completely possible. The problem is trying to
write that code for a non-standard architecture. These cheap Chinese
processors often completely lack even minimal documentation. See this great
post:

[http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/pipermail/arm-
netbook/2012-March/0...](http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/pipermail/arm-
netbook/2012-March/002881.html)

~~~
stfu
Never thought that these processors are somewhat the result of Chinese
subsidies gone wild. Really worth reading, thanks for this.

------
forgottenpaswrd
The good thing about being with someone is that : being with someone ALONE.
Not someone analyzing what I did with my wife one month ago, where, how, why.

The idea is not new, Justin started <http://www.justin.tv/> recording
everything in his life with a video camera.

I don't want anything I say or do being recorder by someone else(I know this
camera only takes pictures, by now), and I don't want other people(smartphone
manufacturer and the US government) to know what I did Thursday at 3:00 pm.

One of the worse things about living in a small village is all people
controlling what others do, gossip here and there. In cities people were free
of other people trying to control them, with cameras everywhere and web social
services it is becoming rural village again.

It is big brother´s dream. In the future the government will use cameras on
the street, face recognition and servers to track anybody at any time.

~~~
true_religion
> The good thing about being with someone is that : being with someone ALONE

Isn't this a case of if you don't like it... don't use it?

~~~
mike-cardwell
You don't get to choose if the people around you are using it.

~~~
lmm
I remember a post from another thread saying that our experience of being able
to go out anonymously in a crowd is basically a blip in human history. When
you live in a village it's impossible to go anywhere (you still have privacy
when you're actually in private) without all your neighbours knowing, and
it'll be the same when this technology becomes widespread.

~~~
mike-cardwell
Many of our current daily experiences are a blip in human history. I'm not
concerned about how old the experience of relative anonymity in public spaces
is. It's a good thing, that we should strive to keep.

------
digitalengineer
Depressing. This is like that movie with Robin Williams "The Final Cut".
<http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0364343/> A total privacy nightmare. Your
government is gonna love it though.

~~~
xabi
Same as Black Mirror 1-03 "The Entire History of You". Very recommended BTW.

<http://www.tvrage.com/shows/id-30348/episodes/1065121884>

~~~
retube
Yes, a great show. Very, very recommmended.

~~~
StavrosK
Did they really only make three episodes? I quite liked them, though.

~~~
prithee
As did I. Hang on there, as the second series was commissioned July of this
year.

------
wtrk
If anyone would like a lifelogging camera right now, you can purchase a Vicon
Revue (rebadged/locked version of Microsoft's SenseCam):

<http://www.viconrevue.com/product.html>

It has a "privacy button" that stops it from taking photos for a few minutes
and records other information along with the images (like temperature, for
example). Also, all of the images and data are stored locally on the device.

Another lifelogging camera, with better specs, about to hit the market (Nov
2012 according to the register/buy page) is Autographer, from the Oxford
Metrics Group:

<http://www.autographer.com/>

They are advertising 8GB of internal storage, so it would seem that they're
storing the images locally too, though the device has bluetooth.

------
alexchamberlain
Looks cool... but... Does this have a long-term future? Soon (I hope) we will
all be wearing glasses with cameras in and I wonder whether that will render
this obsolete?

~~~
kiba
Is a Google Glasses is going to be unequivocally better in all aspect than a
box or even a camcording box?

~~~
alexchamberlain
Well, I have to wear glasses and the extra features, such as a heads up
display, are very exciting.

------
kiba
It costs 249 bucks for the later batches and 199 dollars for the early
version. Expensive. I guess I'll have to wait for product evolution to make
stuff cheaper.

On the other hand, the application for lifelogging is pretty long. An employed
programmer(or indeed, anybody who makes money) should be able to justify the
expense of 249 bucks no problem.

~~~
mdonahoe
this is $250 plus a monthly fee.

Though a programmer might be able to hack the software to intercept the photo
uploads and just store locally.

------
tisme
2000 pictures per day doesn't sound like much (a bit more than 2 pictures on
average per minute) but this _really_ adds up even at the resolution of this
camera, they claim about 1.5 TB / camera / year. Uploading and storing that
much data for a large number of users in a reliable and cost effective manner
is a non-trivial exercise.

So the big question is what their monthly fee is and I think this project
should disclose those (projected) fees and not just the price of the device
because it could very well be that those monthly fees will be the large
component.

~~~
terhechte
I guess I'd rather have less photo quality and less space requirements. For
this specific use case, I guess 3 Megapixel would be sufficient, and then save
it not as jpeg but in jpeg2000 or another wavelet compression, at best with a
solid compression rate.

~~~
mike-cardwell
The images could naturally degrade over time too. Ie, older photos are
compressed more. Although the process of fetching an image, compressing it,
and replacing it, might be more trouble than the storage saving is worth.
Could keep every nth photo as full resolution maybe.

~~~
joesb
I guess their killer algorithm is going to be on determining the "relevant"
picture to be kept in full resolution.

~~~
megablast
A lot of photos will be the same or very similar.

------
digitalengineer
I'd rather see someone create _really, really disruptive technology_ like a
"personal privacy bubble" I can activate when I choose to. Something that will
auto-blurr and auto-jam all video/audio. THAT is something people would like.
"Want to film me? I opt out!"

~~~
hellweaver666
You mean like for when you go to the adult book store?

~~~
mike-cardwell
Or a bar. Or a church. Or a sexual health clinic. Or a comic book convention.
Or for a run. Or on a date. Or sunbathing on a beech.

------
SCdF
As cool as this is, I'll be interested once we have always on audio, video and
GPS, with-- while we're day dreaming-- a post-process that analyses the data
and reduces it to a day summary complete with transcribed conversations,
things you saw and people you met.

~~~
erikstarck
You can assume the Memoto team is having an ongoing conversation with the
(Swedish) authorities discussing privacy issues for a device that only saves
images.

Adding sound and video moves the privacy concerns to a whole new level. Are
we, as a society, even ready for such a device?

Also, you add a lot of complexity both in terms of usage and in terms of
manufacturing and support.

Plus the battery drain.

------
martinkallstrom
Hi all, sorry to come late to this thread. I'm one of the founders of Memoto
and a long term HNer. FWIW, Memoto would never have reached this stage without
HN.

Of course we are very happy about the results of the Kickstarter campaign.
Personally I am also very happy about the healthy concerns raised here on HN,
to continue to inspire us to never settle for mediocrity. We have a great team
of engineers working on both hardware and software. It is a challenge to
handle such a long tech chain but we feel it is manageable with the team we
have.

------
diziet
This is an idea that probably rests on their software and ease of use
capabilities, as small portable cameras have existed for quite some time now
in the $10-20 price range: [http://www.amazon.com/Hidden-Digital-Video-
Novelty-Camera/dp...](http://www.amazon.com/Hidden-Digital-Video-Novelty-
Camera/dp/B006IFK5V0) or [http://www.amazon.com/Mini-30fps-chewing-shaped-
camera/dp/B0...](http://www.amazon.com/Mini-30fps-chewing-shaped-
camera/dp/B004Y3PH20)

The geotagging of events, plus all the wonderful image recognition and
categorizing (plus automatically judging photos as interesting or valuable)
are the selling point of this camera. It'd be pretty hard to get shots of
yourself though, maybe they could introduce some sort of opt in feature where
other users of this kind of camera that were in a close by position at similar
times would contribute to your feed? (Or did I just invent Color?)

------
rplnt
Just don't forget to turn it off on your vacation...

[http://arstechnica.com/gaming/2012/09/arma-iii-developers-
ch...](http://arstechnica.com/gaming/2012/09/arma-iii-developers-charged-with-
espionage-in-greece/)

------
hk__2
“To recharge the camera’s batteries, you connect the camera to your computer;
at the same time the photos are automatically uploaded to Memoto’s servers”

What? I can’t just keep the photos without putting them on Memoto’s servers ??

------
stkni
I don't get it. I'm not going to wear this to work, partly because my boss
would think I was a spy and partly because my work life simply isn't worth
recording at that level of detail.

So then I take it with me places on the weekends. But, I already take a high
quality camera with me most-places (courtesy of my smart-phone) and it takes
pictures at EXACTLY the right moment, it doesn't miss the shot because of a
poor-angle, bad light, bad composition or bad timing. At least when it does,
it's my fault.

To me this seems way too niche to ever succeed. I expect I'll be wearing one
though in a few years time :-)

~~~
mdonahoe
Can you remember exactly what you were doing on Sunday Sept 30th at 5pm?

That's what this is for. Remembering the inbetweens. The moments you forgot to
photograph because you were too busy living them.

Most of it will be junk, but so are most emails. The data is still worth
having, for some people anyway.

~~~
stkni
No, and if I can't is it worth recording?!

------
jimmahoney
The cloud model would seem problematic for this much data, given the bandwidth
constraints of many users.

For my DSL connection (3Mbps/0.8Mbps) I would need to saturate my outgoing
bandwidth half of each day to upload 4GB. And I think that these numbers
aren't far off from the global average.

If this is going to be a viable product, I don't understand at why the
developers wouldn't provide a local storage model. Without that, I for one
would have zero interest in the service as described, particularly given all
the other concerns of handing over this much intensely personal data.

------
gallerytungsten
Interesting idea. Except for this part: "the photos are automatically uploaded
to Memoto’s server."

Are you kidding me? No option for just uploading to my own computer? This
makes the whole thing a non-starter.

------
vibragiel
2000 geotagged pictures a day, every day of my life, automatically uploaded to
their servers, and no word on how would one set up their own private server?
Let me think about it... #not

~~~
kiba
Buy it. Reverse engineer it, and hack it so it uploads to a private server.
Release the code.

Unless they had already provide this option.

~~~
grogenaut
DCMA'd ya in one. Just like the new apple charging cable. SUCKER!

------
ivanb
This would be helpful as wearable surveillance camera. I can imagine retail
workers, policemen and security guards wearing them.

------
zerostar07
I wish i was more qualified to identify the myriads of cliches in their video.
Hipstery shaky 70s-ish looking nostalgic video, rounded edges, yellow plastic,
heavy SLR.

But really, this seems like a cool idea for a phone app, why the extra
hardware?

~~~
jonmrodriguez
Why the hardware? Seriously?

Try walking around all day with a full-size smartphone hanging as a necklace.
People are going to think you're crazy.

Miniaturization is the name of the game.

------
fsniper
I believe people are going crazy. This kind of self privacy violations can not
be true.

------
ericflo
I think this is a really cool idea, but it's still about 2 or 3 times too big
for me to wear it. It's big enough that people will notice it and ask about
it, which is enough to discourage me from wanting one.

------
leke
Soon everyone will be able to see you having sex.

------
tudorw
If we are asserting that time is short and we lead fast lives, where will the
time come from to review these images ?

------
trendspotter
Awesome. Found it 30 minutes before hising posted it here.

Note to self: Submit everything cool to HN.

------
rorrr
They would have to make batteries replaceable, since a product targeted to
years of use.

Their funding goal of $50K is ridiculous. This is a software + hardware
project. $50K is nothing.

Plus they need to pay royalties for using JPG once that project takes off.

~~~
diziet
If I am reading this correctly, the patent in question has been inactive since
2008: <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JPEG#Patent_issues>

------
eik3_de
5 times overfunded in 3..2..1..

