
Why Germany Is Better at Training Its Workers - zwieback
http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2014/10/why-germany-is-so-much-better-at-training-its-workers/381550/?single_page=true
======
lordnacho
Here's what I find, as someone who's straddled both Anglo-Saxon and Germanic
systems.

\- In the UK, a lot of people have degrees, but it doesn't seem to matter what
the degree is in. You have English and History grads trading bonds. You used
to be able to get an options trading job straight out of school (some of my
old bosses joined at 16, and are now the movers and shakers in certain option
markets) but not anymore.

\- In Switzerland (which I think is somewhat similar to Germany) not that many
people have degrees, but everyone appears to be trained for their industry
from a young age. My private banker is around my age, but started as a banking
apprentice at age 16. He's a major asset for his international bank, and seems
to know everything that folks in London know.

What are the pros and cons? I suppose if you do a degree in the UK, you can
find a job in many different industries. But you'll probably have a steeper
learning curve, since you won't be learning about bonds until you land at the
desk. In the Germanic world, you'll somewhat hit the ground running. But you
might find it hard to change industries, which is a problem at the moment for
finance folks (major job cuts at the two Swiss investment banks).

~~~
ThomPete
Switzerland is unique in the sense that they never bought into the idea that
knowledge worker meant non-technical. When the rest of Europe spent most of
their time getting people with university degrees in various humanistic and
social sciences, communication etc, Switzerland kept educating technical
knowledgable but still of equal length.

The result of that is the Switzerland has managed to get most of the high
quality production that requires special knowledge and the rest of Europe is
fighting for the scrapes.

~~~
u02sgb
That wasn't my experience of working in a large insurer in Switzerland
(admittedly just one company but I spoke to people who worked in other ones).
I found the Swiss staff I dealt with didn't have the mental flexibility to
deal with the sometimes chaotic world of managing a large IT system.

They could cope if it was something they understood but if it was a completely
new problem they were generally at a loss. They tried to replace the
contractors from my company three or four times and always ended up asking for
them back after a month or two.

Obviously this is a generalisation based on working in one place but as I
found Switzerland very rule based I wondered if that extended to their problem
solving.

------
lkrubner
The article contains an implicit contradiction, especially in its praise of
apprenticeships. Apprenticeships are typically something a person engages in
during their teens or 20s, and therefore, whatever is learned during that
apprenticeship, the skills can potentially be out-of-date 20 years later.
Therefore, apprenticeship can not explain the absence (in Germany) of a
"skills mismatch", especially if one accepts the description given in the
article:

"With new technology transforming work across a range of sectors, more and
more businesses are struggling to find workers with the skills to man new
machines and manage new processes."

How would apprenticeship explain why a 40 year old German machinist is more
likely to be employed than a 40 year old American machinist?

There are many people, in the USA, who are in their 40s and 50s and who are
unemployed. Apprenticeship, in its traditional form, would not help them.

There is another way to look at this, which is to say that the German economy
is really weak, but the weakness of the economy was hidden by the introduction
of the euro, and the irresponsible lending that German banks engaged in, which
allowed an unsustainable debt-fueled bubble to appear in Southern Europe,
which created a huge market for German capital goods, which gave Germany a big
export surplus. Consider the summary that Paul Krugman gives of Wolfgang
Münchau description of the situation:

[http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2014/10/12/german-
weakness/](http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2014/10/12/german-weakness/)

Germany came out the big winner of the euro, therefore its export industry is
strong, therefore industry can still engage in long-term investments in its
workers, and the labor unions in Germany are very strong, so they can force
corporations to spend on training programs. All of which helps. But the roots
of German success, in 2014, originate with the great financial changes of the
last 25 years, and that success makes German's training programs look great.
But to suggest that Germany does a good job training its workers, and
therefore the Germany economy is strong, is probably wrong on at least 2
counts:

1.) it probably reverses cause and effect

2.) the German economy is not really strong

~~~
lispm
> There is another way to look at this, which is to say that the German
> economy is really weak, but the weakness of the economy was hidden by the
> introduction of the euro,

In the meanwhile Germany added 20 million people from a collapsed
country/economy...

> which created a huge market for German capital goods, which gave Germany a
> big export surplus.

Germany had an huge export surplus before, during and after it.

> Germany came out the big winner of the euro, therefore its export industry
> is strong, therefore industry can still engage in long-term investments in
> its workers

Germany did that before the Euro and is still doing it.

> and the labor unions in Germany are very strong, so they can force
> corporations to spend on training programs.

The companies are more than willing to train their workers. No unions
necessary.

> Germany does a good job training its workers, and therefore the Germany
> economy is strong, is probably wrong on at least 2 counts: > 1.) it probably
> reverses cause and effect

There is no 'cause and effect'. It makes much more sense to model economy as a
system with multiple feedback loops.

The education and training systems constantly creates new workers with
relatively high skill sets. You can guess the effects from that and you can
also easily guess why the companies are doing this.

> 2.) the German economy is not really strong

That would not make any sense to say. 80+ million people, fourth largest
economy in the world.

~~~
james1071
No, Germany has not always had a huge export surplus.

[http://www.tradingeconomics.com/charts/germany-current-
accou...](http://www.tradingeconomics.com/charts/germany-current-account-to-
gdp.png?s=deuca2gdp&d1=19950101&d2=20141231)

The current surplus is not a feature of German productivity but the result of
having an undervalued Euro and depressed domestic demand.

~~~
this_user
Lots of Germany's main trading partners (e.g. France) are Eurozone countries
too. If this were not the case, the DEM would have appreciated against their
currencies by now but instead there is effectively a currency peg supporting
German exports.

~~~
james1071
Yes, DM undervalued within the Euro.

------
me2i81
Many of the 4.8 million unfilled jobs could be filled at a higher rate of pay.
Some employers seem to think they get to set the pay and magically have
qualified applicants show up.

~~~
x0x0
Yes, and run around bitching when they can't buy a bmw for hyundai pricing.
Paying more allows you to hire workers with the skills you need; who knew?

    
    
       Steve Van Loan, president of Sullivan Palatek Inc. in Michigan City, said 
       job hopping is becoming more of a problem. “They get an offer for more money 
       across town, and they’re gone,” he said. Wages on average at his firm, which 
       makes compressors that power drills and other tools, are rising 4% to 5% 
       this year, compared with 2% to 3% in recent years, Mr. Van Loan said.
       
       “Everybody got so skinny back in the days when we were laying off everybody,”
       he said. “Now that the Midwest is getting some manufacturing back, it’s just
       tough to find workers” with the needed skills. [1]
    

Or you could, gasp, train them! Though my personal guess is that a big chunk
of the complaining is merely an attempt to dump training costs onto workers
and local government in the form of 2-year technical colleges. Though that
makes it much harder for employers to create workers with exactly the skills
they need.

    
    
       Both the White House and governors are trying to fight a so-called skills 
       gap among U.S. workers that many businesses blame for the slow labor-market 
       recovery. Although plenty of Americans are looking for work, employers often 
       lament a lack of qualified workers—particularly young people.
       
       Germany, in contrast, has a long record of finding a stronger fit between 
       employees' skills and employers' demands. The success is reflected in a 
       youth unemployment below 8%, the lowest of any advanced country and about 
       half of the U.S. level. The apprenticeship system is credited as a leading 
       driver of what many European economists call the German labor-market 
       "miracle." [2]
    
    

[1] [http://online.wsj.com/articles/manufacturing-wages-rise-
fast...](http://online.wsj.com/articles/manufacturing-wages-rise-fast-in-some-
states-amid-skills-shortages-1412802098)

[2] [http://online.wsj.com/articles/skills-gap-bumps-up-
against-v...](http://online.wsj.com/articles/skills-gap-bumps-up-against-
vocational-taboo-1410473392)

ps -- sorry for the wsj links, google the stuff after the final slash and you
can bypass the paywall

~~~
Spooky23
My employer is whining about a similar thing... They created a system where
entry employees now need to wait 5-7 years to make more than about 60k in IT.

The good ones are doubling salaries, and the conclusion drawn is that
millennials are not loyal!

------
tiatia
Vote me down again:

Because Germans have the idea of "Germans" and the politicians do at least to
some degree try to improve the living standards for all?

The same thing in China. Whatever the government in China may be, they still
try to rise the standard of living for all.

So it is no surprise that China considers to adopt the German apprentice
system and both, China and Germany have very good public transport.

"America is a business" as Brad Pitt said in one movie. Both, heavy investment
into public infrastructure and something like a subsidized apprenticeship
would always be seen as "interfering with the free market" in the US. Hope it
ends well.

~~~
crassus2
Chinese and Germans in the United States also do very well in the economy.
Maybe there's some third factor that we're missing.

These kind of articles make the implicit assumption that countries are the
same except for being located in different locations, and that successful
institutions from one can be transplanted to another. But each is an organic
entity, with different histories and cultures

~~~
csours
How well do expats do in general? It seems that if you are able to afford to
leave your country to work or study you are already doing quite well.

~~~
crassus2
Not all expats are created equal. For example, Mexicans living in the US tend
not to do so well in education or the economy, dragging a lot of US national
statistics down. This is because a lot of Mexican-Americans come from lower
class backgrounds and not Mexico's educated elites.

~~~
collyw
As another discussion pointed out on HN, Mexicans and poeple of lower class
backgrounds will be referred to as "immigrants", while people from richer
countries will be referred to as "expats".

I have started trying to swap the two around in my own language, to avoid
stereotyping people based on class.

------
refurb
Isn't one of the drawbacks to the German system that you're directed down one
particular path very early in your education?

In other words, by the time you're in high school, you're either in the
"university path" or the "trade path"?

I honestly don't know but it would be interesting to hear thoughts. Does it
make it harder to switch careers later in life?

~~~
rbehrends
> Isn't one of the drawbacks to the German system that you're directed down
> one particular path very early in your education?

Yes, and it's one of the sillier parts of the German educational system. That
said, recent school reforms have at least started to mitigate it a bit. The
problem here is not some form of tracking as such – not everyone has the same
talents – but that it happens so early (after fourth grade) and that the
differences between school types are so huge.

That said, these days it's at least less of a permanent decision. For example,
my niece initially finished school after 10th grade ("Mittlere Reife"), then
did an apprenticeship, then went back to school, working on her abitur now and
will likely go to college afterwards.

Depending on where you live, children may also be able to join one of the
comprehensive schools and bypass the traditional system.

~~~
ma2rten
_For example, my niece initially finished school after 10th grade ( "Mittlere
Reife"), then did an apprenticeship, then went back to school, working on her
abitur now and will likely go to college afterwards._

Yeah, but only few have the discipline to go back to school after having
earned "real money" already.

The international equivalent would be graduating, getting some work experience
and then going back to grad school. I don't think many people manage to do
that either. But in this case it's even more difficult because you have to go
back to high school basically.

~~~
vacri
I've got several friends who spent a short time in industry before going back
to get their Masters as full-time students. It doesn't seem that unusual to
me. Mind you, these aren't people with mortgages or children.

------
perlgeek
Another point to consider:

Apprenticeships only pay off for the company if they can expect the
apprentices stay with them for a few years after the education is done.

And in Germany there's a big cultural bias for keeping jobs long years. My
impression is that that's not the case in the USA.

~~~
masklinn
Of course that works both ways, keeping a job for a long time in the US is a
guarantee of no advancement unless you're a very good politics player, most
skilled US workers get hosed if they stay in the same company for a long time.

------
deciplex
>This issue came up at nearly every stop on the tour, we Americans asking
about what costs mean for ROI and the Germans telling us to look beyond ROI to
the longer-term benefits, for the company and society. Ultimately, of course,
they’re right. But it’s hard to imagine many American firms, generally focused
on short-term financial gain, building the kind of in-house training centers
we saw at every German plant.

And this is why it will never happen until there is a massive cultural shift.
Americans and American firms have accepted and even embraced the tragedy of
the commons in a wide variety of areas. Where most people realize a race to
the bottom is something to be avoided, in America, it's something to be won.

------
bayesianhorse
Early "tracking", putting children in a performance-related track, is a big
problem in Germany. It seriously hinders the educational success of those put
in lower tracks.

However, these tracks are only superficially about academic success. The
reality is that it's more about ethnicity and parent's background. Turkish
children are seen by many Germans as genetically less intelligent than their
"pure" German peers. You won't hear that sentiment very often, and I find this
attitude absolutely horrifying, but this has been shown by social studies and
opinion polls. The result is that children from a foreign or poor background
have far less chances to get into the academic track, and a lot of people
think that's purely because of different abilities.

The result is a system that struggles with social mobility, compared to other
European countries. And some part of it actually has to do with early
vocational training, because choosing an apprenticeship when being capable of
a well-paying university degree does hold back social mobility.

~~~
junto
I know a fair few teachers in Germany who work in a 'Gymnasium', which is
essentially the top tier secondary school. An equivalent to an old UK grammar
school concept.

This is going to sound pretty harsh, but while it is hard to generalize, there
is a strong tendency for children who come from Turkish backgrounds
(especially boys) to be disruptive influences in class. This starts at an
early age, and thus tracking tends to dump these children in Realschule and
Hauptschule.

This disruption in class is especially the case with female teachers, for whom
the boys hold little respect for. Their culture appears to hold little respect
for women in the workplace. The father's hold similar disrespecting views at
parent evenings as well. The effect is reversed with male teachers.

This is cultural problem on both sides and as a result the children lose out.
Children that could have been successful academically are penalized both by
the system's inherent failure to integrate migrants and as a direct result of
their family's misogyny.

Germany likes to think that it is "Multikulti" [1], but my experiences so far
seem to show a multi-culturalism that is a "pretty sheen" over the top of
suspicion and disrespect. London has a far greater multi-culturalism than I
have seen here in Germany.

[1]
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multikulti](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multikulti)

~~~
bayesianhorse
You may want to think of your opinion to be an objective truth, but it isn't.
Your explanation that muslim children don't respect female teachers is
complete bs, in my opinion. The truth is that most muslim women in Germany,
especially the Turkish ones, don't even wear a headscarf.

In Germany, I almost never hear "Multikulti" except from extreme right-wing
people, and those who share racist opinions, but don't consider themselves
Racist. (It's "The Truth", how can it be racism?)

There is a well documented effect in that the teacher's expectations are
reflected both in subjective grades and objective performance.

Another confusing factor is that most Turkish "immigrant" children are
anything but immigrants. Their parents or grandparents immigrated to Germany
decades ago and helped build the country. But they were low-skilled laborers.
And their children suffer from the same adverse selection problem as German
"underclass" children do.

It's just so much easier to pin this complex problem on a mysterious genetic
factor that makes Turks dumber.

~~~
junto
Woah there. You've extrapolated a number of things that I never stated. Let's
revisit this:

    
    
       'but while it is hard to generalize, there is a strong 
       tendency'
    

I went out of my way not to generalize. I stated a tendency. There is no hard
and fast rule here.

    
    
       'The truth is that most muslim women in Germany, 
       especially the Turkish ones, don't even wear a 
       headscarf.'
    

I did not mention headscarves. Not once. I stated 'misogyny'. The two are not
the same.

    
    
       'I almost never hear "Multikulti" except from extreme 
       right-wing people, and those who share racist opinions,
       but don't consider themselves Racist.'
    

"Multikulti" was a concept was popularized by the liberal Alliance 90/Green
Party. Merkel, of the right leaning CDU stated multi-cuturalism has "utterly
failed" back in 2010 [1]. This is a partisan concept. I therefore struggle to
see how you can associate the attempt by the German people to have a multi-
cultural society as racist. I don't understand how you make that connection?

    
    
       'There is a well documented effect in that the teacher's
       expectations are reflected both in subjective grades and
       objective performance.'
    

That I agree with.

    
    
       'Another confusing factor is that most Turkish 
       "immigrant" children are anything but immigrants. Their 
       parents or grandparents immigrated to Germany decades ago
       and helped build the country.'
    

Agreed, these children come from a migration background. I should have made
that clearer. My observation was that specifically the boys have a problem
with women teachers telling them what to do. This includes female teachers
that come from a "Migrationshintergrund". Women having a position of authority
over these boys is a problem for them.

    
    
      'pin this complex problem on a mysterious genetic factor
      that makes Turks dumber'
    

This one baffles me. I stated that these boys have a discipline problem. I
also stated that these children are not achieving their potential because of
the misogyny, _not_ because they are dumb.

Bottom line is that a misogynistic cultural attitude is prevalent in Turkish
society. That misogyny concerns the role of women in the work place. It
especially causes problems in schools where women teachers hold positions of
authority over young men who do not like, and are not used to, that scenario.
As a result come discipline problems that (as you so eloquently put it) 'the
teacher's expectations are reflected both in subjective grades and objective
performance' results.

It is a vicious cycle. Hence, I went out of my way to state that both sides
are to blame. You appear to have overlooked that fact.

[1] [http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-
europe-11559451](http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-11559451)

~~~
bayesianhorse
Well, the green party isn't using the word "Multikulti" a lot these days. I do
hear it a lot when people want to justify racist beliefs, though. And a lot.

The pure fact that there are multiple cultures in Germany is very evident. And
it's not just immigrants. Point is: You can't get rid of people that don't
suit your cultural preferences. You can't force assimilation. Instead, this
constant "assimilation debate" is more a means to scare off foreigners.

You didn't say anything about genetics, but others do. Especially the
"Sarrazin school" of racism. Strongly associating faults and delinquency to
cultural backgrounds or religion isn't that much better, though.

Most (purportedly) muslim students don't exhibit mysogyny against female
teachers. It is simply wrong to ascribe most or all of these problems to
misogyny, even if this explanation is so simple and logical.

It also doesn't point to a solution for these problems.

------
psj
Shopify's founder wrote an interesting article on his experience apprenticing
in Germany: [http://tobi.lutke.com/blogs/news/11280301-the-apprentice-
pro...](http://tobi.lutke.com/blogs/news/11280301-the-apprentice-programmer)

~~~
eru
Thanks, that was a surprisingly good read. In a similar vein, there's also the
`Duales Studium', which gives vocational experience and a bachelor's degree.

~~~
Semaphor
It should be mentioned that "Duales Studium" requires very good grades as the
spots are highly sought after.

------
djulius
Germany is good at training its workers mostly because of one the last if not
the last industrialized country in Europe.

UK and France thought industry as dead decades ago and lost their know-how by
moving plants overseas.

Meanwhile Germany has kept his knowledge in-house and trains the best
technician, ingenieur especially in machinenbau (mechanical engineering).

A decade ago at the KIT, machinenbau graduate were most sought-after by
companies than computer scientist.

(btw I'm french)

~~~
pjc50
I don't think this is entirely true, the UK has plenty of manufacturing. It's
just "lean" or capital-intensive. Tends to be small runs of high-value
products rather than mass manufacturing.

What has mostly gone is the "factory floor", large businesses with lots of
workers to engage in labour disputes with. You can do car manufacturing in the
UK so long as senior management culture isn't British or it's a tiny luxury
car company. But British Leyland are as dead as old Detroit.

~~~
arethuza
The UK manufactures a lot of stuff - manufacturing output in the UK doubled
from 1958 and 2007 - it's just that we don't have many _people_ employed in
manufacturing anymore:

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manufacturing_in_the_United_Kin...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manufacturing_in_the_United_Kingdom)

------
nichtich
Like lkrubner already points out, the cause and effect is probably the
opposite of what a lot of people think. We may think apprenticeship means
business is treating its worker well, "investing" in them. But what did the
workers really get? Here's a graph: [http://www.businessinsider.com/core-unit-
labor-costs-in-germ...](http://www.businessinsider.com/core-unit-labor-costs-
in-germany-2011-11) Seems being a German worker is not that great?

I'll let Michael Pettis explain it:
[http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2013/05/07/no_the_span...](http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2013/05/07/no_the_spanish_can_t_be_more_german_eurozone_saving)

~~~
lispm
The labor costs were for a long time kept a bit low - together with the unions
- to get rid of mass unemployment and the effects of the German reunification
- 20 million people from a collapsed society added overnight.

You can see the result during the financial crisis: employment was going up,
not down.

The workers and the unions actually got something back from the companies: job
security in difficult times.

------
codingbinary
Well, $100 million of apprenticeship grants isn't gonna cut it. The money
would be better spent in developing the needed infrastructure to adopt the
system. Skip state wide systems and adopt a nation wide system.

As for the "cost factor" for the companies...even if still at apprenticeship
level, the people are working, even if it's just minor tasks in the first few
months, so give them a damn salary. Here in Germany the average is about
700$/month on average, with salary increasing by about 50$ each year. Plus a
decent chance to get a full time job at the same company after your
apprenticeship is done.

The firms won't need to establish programs. The states will have to establish
schools for that, not the firms.

------
lnanek2
It isn't just apprentices, they have two different types of colleges. One is
primarily about job training, the other is what we have in the US. Yes, there
are a few minor technical schools in the US, but it is nothing like Germany.

------
olakease
The unemployment in Germany is 6% that is true. But one of every five works is
a minijob,
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marginal_employment](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marginal_employment).
With a minijob you get about 400 net/month. A minijob does not include social
security which is mandatory in Germany. Take 160 euros.

"Germany strong economy" is an illusion. They are putting money in Spain,
Portugal and Greece, because otherwise the euro and Germany will be totally f
__* up

~~~
JoeCoo7
Social security has nothing to do with minijobs, its mandatory and it does not
depend on your job if minijob or not. Germany has by far the strongest economy
in Europe and most other European countries would have problems without
Germany. Germany does not depend on the Euro, it would be even stronger
without it. So please get yourself informed before telling us your wisdom.

~~~
olakease
Right, minijobs has nothing to do with social security, but, since you need to
pay for it, if you earn 400 - 160 ,you have 240. I'm informed. Are you?
Germany needs to keep southern European countries in the euro. That is the
only reason for injecting money on such corrupted governments. Don't be rude
man, it is not necessary

~~~
sveme
You're not informed. You don't pay social security on a "minijob" or 450-Euro-
job. ( see
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marginal_employment](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marginal_employment)
or the more extensive German wiki article)

~~~
olakease
But in Germany is mandatory to pay the social security, so yes, your employer
will not pay your social security for you. Instead of that, you should pay it
from your pocket.

~~~
sveme
No. Your employer pays a fixed amount for social security while you don't pay
anything.

In case you understand German: "Bei einer geringfügigen Beschäftigung trägt
der Arbeitgeber Lohnsteuer, Solidaritätszuschlag und Kirchensteuer sowie
Sozialversicherungsbeiträge."

(see
here:[https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geringf%C3%BCgige_Besch%C3%A4f...](https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geringf%C3%BCgige_Besch%C3%A4ftigung))

In a 450 Euro job, you get 450 Euro.

------
tsotha
The problem is the German model may be impossible to emulate. There's only
going to be one top-end manufacturer in a given sector. Other countries can do
what Germany is doing, but they're only going to be successful if the can
displace the Germans.

~~~
eru
> There's only going to be one top-end manufacturer in a given sector.

What do you mean by sector? Germany and Japan (and the US) get along just fine
as top-end manufacturers.

~~~
tsotha
What top-end US manufacturers?

------
musername
In practice though, aprentices are often seen as cheap labour and are not at
all trained well, if the madter to the aprentice lacks time or is a drunkard
or what have you.

Especially in the simpler of proffesions, I fail to grasp the difference to
the british system. Surely you need and will receive training of some form as
well if you start a job. Do the school hours make the difference here? I am
not convinved, given a butcher with already 10 years of school experience will
be taught and tested for cheap stuff like percentage calculation. OTH you can
become sysadmin apprentice and won't need a uni-degree, which is nice i
suppose, as you get certified to know the essentials.

~~~
k__
THIS!

I habe never heared anything good about the "Berufsschule" so I decided to get
a degree and work parttime as dev to get good theoretical and practical
education here in germany.

------
goshx
Think YC for people instead of companies. Does it sound like a crazy idea?

------
moconnor
codingbinary: your account has been hellbanned for several years and most
people never see your comments; looking through your comment history I can't
see why.

------
notastartup
I watched this BBC special about a British couple experiencing the German
life. It was eye opening.

First, German workers are forbidden to use social media or check their phones
at work. So, instead of checking your text message or facebook, you interact
with other workers.

Second, workers are given bonuses based on team output. No competition, rather
team must work together to get better bonuses.

Third, German's don't ever drown themselves with a mortgage. They just rent
for life, but I hear that housing condition is excellent in Germany.

Fourth, German mother's are incentivized to take care of their children. The
heavy taxation discourages moms seeking jobs. This is important for child's
development to have a mother around.

Fifth, German kindergarten is more like spending time in nature, getting dirty
in the forest, climbing trees and such.

Sixth, students who aren't interested in studying can go to trade schools and
take up apprenticeship like the article described.

For the above reasons, Germany seems to work less hours yet have greater
output. They are super efficient and practical with their time. The government
also places heavy emphasis in making sure the traditional familial obligations
are maintained.

What an awesome country.

~~~
facepalm
Don't believe everything you see on TV. I don't think any of those points are
true.

Social media use is definitely not forbidden at work as a rule. Not sure if
there are companies that forbid it, and if that would be legal. But it is
certainly not the norm.

Don't know about the bonuses.

Mortgages: many Germany buy houses, but perhaps fewer than in the UK. Renting
for life is certainly common.

Childcare: what does "heavy taxation" have to do with it? Taxes are the same
for everyone. There is a huge push to get mothers to work earlier by providing
more childcare and so on (personally I think it's a stupid idea, but it's the
sentiment the common media outlets want us to have).

Kindergarden: nature kindergardens exist, but they are rare. Most
kindergardens have their own playground.

~~~
Tomte
> Not sure if there are companies that forbid it,

Today probably most companies disallow any private web surfing.

Inofficially it is often tolerated if you don't overdo it.

> and if that would be legal.

It is.

> But it is certainly not the norm.

Believe me, it is.

The reason is simple: As soon as you're allowing private surfing you have to
respect your employees' privacy. That means that you must not use software or
equipment to track web use (apart from special agreements with the works
council).

Same goes for private email. If you allow that, you cannot have your admins
look into emails anymore. You cannot easily backup mails without telling your
employees all the details. You cannot simply reject mails. And so on.

It's a huge hassle.

~~~
facepalm
I think tracking employees is definitely illegal. I worked on a program for a
larger company where employees could enter stuff into a system, and we had to
take extra care to make tracking impossible or at least difficult (thinks like
"how much does employee x work").

------
autism_hurts
It comes through in their cars. Anyone who's owned a german-built car knows.

~~~
old-gregg
Having owned 3 BMWs and two VWs no, I dont. The Volkswagens were garbage, and
the BMWs were fun, on the same level as Hoda, which I also enjoyed.

~~~
arethuza
Having owned 1 BMW and 5 VWs my views are the exact opposite - the BMW was by
far the most expensive (and fastest) car I have ever owned but although it was
new it had a lot of mechanical problems and really wasn't that comfortable.

All of the VW group cars I have had have been great - haven't had a single
problem with them.

------
millermp12
Save yourself the read. Short answer is: because they're German.

