
‘In my nightmares I'm always in the sea’: a year on from the Greek fires - YeGoblynQueenne
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/jul/20/greek-fires-one-year-on-103-dead-survivors-and-rescuers-look-back
======
the-dude
As a Dutchman I am ashamed how much 'solidarity' there really is in the
'union'.

Sure, they had their books cooked by Goldman Sachs to get in, but everybody
knew this. The austerity forced upon the Greeks since the €-crisis is
inhumane.

~~~
spapas82
I'm greek and in my opinion this catastrophy doesn't actually have anything to
do with the austerity. I'd like to express some personal opinions (please
other greek people don't judge or make it polical this is just the opinion
I've gathered by watching the news all this time): I believe that the
catastrophy it's a result of three things (please forgive my english I hope
everything will make sense):

\- The Weather. From what I've head the fire had spread in very little time;
it was something unprecedented. I don't know if the fires had started by arson
but definitely the main responsible party for this destruction was the wind.

\- The organization of the civil protection organizations (police, fire
department, etc). Unfortunately the civil protection had not properly handled
this. They were more or less caught with their pants down; they did not
understand how big the fire was and were giving wrong directions to the
citizens. Also, there was (and I don't think that there is now) no real plan
to handle such situations; every is left to luck. This is more or less how
everything in Greece works; sloppy and without a real plan; most people want
to do their service, not have any responsibilities and go home. Very few
people in key areas have a real plan or want to implement something bigger
than day to day work.

\- The residential situation in these areas. These areas are more or less a
forest near the sea. During the previous years, when I passed with my card I
saw some houses in these areas surrounded by forrest. Also there were various
other strange things like homes having "private" access to the beach so people
running from the fire were trapped and unable to run to the sea(!) Most of
these houses did not have a permit to be built there but because of how the
Greek government works (I mean in the previous 30+ years) they were able to
stay their without any problems. They even had electric power, telephone etc
even though they shouldnt since they had built in the forrest. Such things
unfortunately exist in other places in Greece but nobody seems to care. This
is more or less related to the sloppy nature of greeks and the governments
here for like 40+ years.

Please notice that even if everythign worked perfect in the civil protection
and even if there were no houses in these forrests, even then I'm not sure
that the catastrophy could be averted. We've seen similar situation in much
better organized countries than Greece. So there would still be much
destruction (and probably dead people) but I think not at this scale.

Update: sorry my last sentence had the opposite meaning of what I wanted to
say; it's been corrected now.

~~~
GoetheThrowaway
My wife is Greek, I’m Northern European and have lived in Greece for more than
10 years (on and off). This sounds similar to what I have observed except in
my view it’s even worse. Greece is a massively corrupt country, on all levels,
starting from government/politics and culminating all the way down to day-to-
day life.

The Greeks have a tendency to blame the politicians for everything that goes
wrong but it’s really the corrupt, disintegrating culture - that they are
happy to espouse - that’s most to blame. After all, who is voting these
corrupt politicians into power year after year? Terms like “the common good”,
“strategic thinking”, “planning for the future” , “unity” are not only
completely meaningless to the average Greek but actively frowned upon if not
ridiculed. Populism holds sway and people are happy to vote for whatever
powermonger ends up promising the most in terms of personal gain. Add to that
a vast, monstrously centralized civil sector (the bureaucracy and time wasting
here is of epic proportions) and one can quickly see why the country is in
shambles. Of all the European countries I’ve lived in, I’d say that Italy is
the most similar, corruption-wise.

Something funny: Greece is, I think, the only country in the EU where the
“Communist Party” (a direct appendage of the Stalinist era with ties to CCCP)
has significant power and is voted into parliament every year. The previous
prime minister Tsipras was in fact an offshoot of these hardened communists.

Nevertheless, the country itself, outside the big cities, is beautiful beyond
belief. It’s just too bad that the culture is so backwards with no sign of
things changing for the better.

~~~
afthonos
I am Greek, but have never lived in Greece. My understanding of the situation
is exactly this in terms of what happens, but very different in terms of what
the causes are.

Basically, Greek society is not a Western bureaucratic society; for lack of a
better word, let's call it a _relationship society_. Some differences as I see
them are:

(1) Relationship societies rely on you knowing someone who can help you.
Bureaucracies rely on everyone knowing the rules, and civil servants complying
with them.

(2) Relationship societies have an understood element of favor trading:
someone you know in the office of agriculture helped you, so you help their
nephew back with your position at the department of motor vehicles.
Bureaucratic societies depend on this not happening in a measurable way,
beyond someone being able to quickly tell you _which_ rules you need to apply.

Point (2) in particular is _indistinguishable_ from corruption from a Western
bureaucratic standpoint. But it's important to note that it's a stable way to
run a society. It may not result in certain things that Western bureaucracies
value, but it doesn't mean the society is rotten.

My take on the issue with Greece is that it tried to enter a highly
bureaucratic regime, the EU, without a viable plan to modify its culture. And
so now we have an impedance mismatch. Everyone still works the old ways,
because good luck changing a millenary culture. On the other hand, everyone
_expects_ things to change, and gets upset with they don't. Not least of all
more bureaucratic EU countries.

I don't know how accurate this model is. But it has the advantage that it
doesn't separate Greeks into a weirdly incapable people that cannot coordinate
or plan ahead. Prisoners of our own culture, yes, but so is everyone. Unable
to operate on the plane set by Western European bureaucracy, undoubtedly
(irrespective of whether we want to consider the plane a higher or a lower
plane). But ultimately, it's a complicated thing to fix, because both cultures
are stable, but going from one to the other requires remarkable activation
energy (to further mix metaphors).

~~~
spapas82
Your explanation has some basis. Actually this "relationship society" you
mention is common in the middle east (Turkey, Egypt, Syria etc).

The fact that Greece was under Turkish occupation for ~ 400 years (until 1830)
probably has something to do with our culture not being close to Western
bureocratic .

~~~
craftoman
What are you talking about? That's even worst excuse than blaming Romans for
conquering Greece 2000 years ago. Greece had some great opportunities since
the 60s but they never settled down some things up. Half of Greeks were
spending fortunes at night clubs and bars. If you said anything about saving
money back then they would probably laugh at you. Have you ever met a real
Greek?

~~~
spapas82
Well I consider my self a "real" Greek (being Greek and having lived here all
my 37 years of life).

I'm not giving excuses to why Greece has come to this state; this is a very
long discussion but I don't think that the Greeks are the only one to blame.

Yes some of the things you mention are true but what's the cause of this? I
mean why would an average Greek buy a Mercedes to show-off instead of invest
these money to his business as western EU people would do? That's what I tried
to (I guess very naively explain): This is a culture thing; it seems that the
Greeks have a different mentality than the western Europeans, a mentality that
is closer to the Middle Easterns.

~~~
craftoman
You told you that? Buying a Mercedes and start flexing around considered a
Turkish thing in Germany. North Europeans are mostly saving money essentially
for buying a house and then start some other various investments.

------
itronitron
If anyone is doing some detailed modeling of European cities to determine
survival strategies for residents (based on traffic routes, proximity to
forests, availability of cellars, etc.) I would be interested to learn more
about that. An outcome of that could be a categorization of blocks or
buildings to guide residents in their choices during a wildfire.

------
avel
In case you were no aware of the news last year:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018_Attica_wildfires](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018_Attica_wildfires)

A greek tv documentary 10 months later:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GNLUNFerCOI](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GNLUNFerCOI)

~~~
spapas82
Please notice that this documentary is a little controversial in Greece. It
was produced by an anti-government TV station and was aired a little before
the EU elections (and 1 month before the government elections which actually
resulted in the change of the governing party in greece).

Most of the facts presented should be right but they have a dash of anti-
government propaganda so watch it with a critical eye.

------
craftoman
I'm from Greece. Here you can build anywhere you like without a permit or any
kind of paperwork. Almost 2/3 of Greek cottages are illegal properties. Things
went more crazy since the solar panel boom cause electricity was the main
reason that people were building the legal way and not like igloos. I know a
couple of people from my family and friends that were getting electricity
using cables from the neighbors and paying them every month but that's another
story. What's the most disturbing of all is that few years ago government
decided to legalize those properties just by paying a fee. In other words,
they tried to legalize properties in the middle of the jungle that haven't
been engineered in any aspect.

------
throw0101a
I have no experience with wildfires, having lived all my life in an urban
environment where concrete and asphalt are everywhere. However, during large
fires last year that were in the news, I did some digging on the subject.

Seems that there are a few simple things that one can be done to one’s house
and property to reduce the risk of a house going up:

* [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pfbEcMeYFFA](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pfbEcMeYFFA)

* [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vL_syp1ZScM](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vL_syp1ZScM)

* [https://www.nfpa.org/Public-Education/By-topic/Wildfire/Prep...](https://www.nfpa.org/Public-Education/By-topic/Wildfire/Preparing-homes-for-wildfire)

* [https://www.nfpa.org/Public-Education/By-topic/Wildfire](https://www.nfpa.org/Public-Education/By-topic/Wildfire)

By eliminating the kindling that's with-in 2m of one's house, and
reducing/removing fuel sources that are with-in 10m (ideally 30m), then the
home survival rate seems to go up dramatically.

Can anyone in a wildfire area comment on the practically of these
recommendations?

~~~
jsharf
One thing that isn't being discussed here is that if your neighbors don't do
this, you'll be the only home left on the block. That's a bit depressing, to
live deserted next to a bunch of burnt down homes. You can sell the house and
move, but being in a burnt down neighborhood will definitely kill the value of
your home, so you're losing a lot of money regardless.

~~~
throw0101a
A burnt down house probably has a value of $0 (notwithstanding land value),
but a standing home--even in ravaged area--probably has a value >$0.

Unless you're banking on insurance buyout, something is better than nothing in
most cases. There's also the trauma of all your possessions turning to ash:
coming home to a still-standing home may be a bit less stressful than coming
home to ruins, even after the strain of an evacuation.

