
The odd reality of life under China's all-seeing credit score system - gringoDan
http://www.wired.co.uk/article/china-social-credit
======
Canada
"Chinese citizens signing up for the wildly popular multiplayer shooter game
Counter Strike Global Offensive must register using both their national ID and
Sesame Credit score, according to state media outlet CGTN, and anyone caught
using cheating software like ‘Aimbots’ which ensure perfect aim will have
their Sesame Credit scores deducted, potentially affecting their real-life
ability to get loans."

Valve knowingly allows its cheat countermeasures to impact human lives in this
way? I'd like to hear their response to this claim.

~~~
TrainedMonkey
Cheating in online competitive gaming is a form of lying. I play CSGO myself
and it is extremely frustrating when people aimbot or wallhack. Based on
personal experience playing against aimbot is like banging head against the
wall, it definitely lowers my quality of life. Moreover a single person with
aimbot can depopulate entire server pretty quickly.

A person chooses to negatively affect quality of life of 10-20 other people. I
can't find a word to describe that behavior other than asshole. With that in
mind the issue can be reframed to - should assholes have a lower credit score?

I do not know. I certainly do not agree with Chinese methods, because I think
positive reinforcement works better. With that said, I am curious what long
term effect Chinese population hacking will have on their society.

On using positive reinforcement to shape the society. Imagine a city park
where lights pulse green when someone picks up a piece of trash from the
ground and throws it away into the trash can. Or a park that remembers people
that do not litter and greets them with a positive reinforcement signal when
they walk in.

~~~
dqpb
> _Or a park that remembers people that do not litter and greets them with a
> positive reinforcement signal when they walk in._

People who litter will have points deducted from their score and they'll no
longer be allowed in parks. Unless they have money of course. "Donating to
charity" can increase your score, so the rich will be able to whatever the
fuck they want and the poor will lose access to parks.

> _playing against aimbot is like banging head against the wall, it definitely
> lowers my quality of life_

Some friendly advice from a fellow human - go take a nice long walk in a park.
Enjoy the fresh air and sunshine, while you still can.

~~~
lifeformed
> go take a nice long walk in a park. Enjoy the fresh air and sunshine, while
> you still can.

What if the park is polluted with litter? The point is that people can degrade
your quality of life in many places, even if it's as "trivial" as leisure.

~~~
ishjoh
I might be in the minority but I always try and pick up litter when I'm
walking in a park, I feel even better about it knowing that I've left it a
little cleaner than when I started. I know there are others that think the
same way as I've seen them and had a friendly chat in the past.

------
jfasi
The problem with these sorts of systems, both those backed by technology and
those backed by old-fashioned prejudice, is that it exerts an upward force on
those who are already on top while simultaneously pushing downwards on those
who are on the bottom. Each of the examples listed here have this effect:
having a high credit score means you get cheaper healthcare, have more
opportunities to find a well-off partner, don't need to pay deposits on car
rentals, get to travel, etc. It seems as though if you're on top, you're going
to stay there, meanwhile if you're on the bottom, you're going to stay there
also.

What I'd like to know, as an American sitting literally a world away from the
people under this system, is to what extent wealth and influence purchase a
high social credit score? Some factors are obvious: those with more money are
less likely to incur debts, for instance. But what about connections to
administrators? I imagine there isn't a politician in all of China who doesn't
magically have a sterling social credit score.

I wonder whether the net result is a society in which a high standing
resulting from material and social wealth leads to perks that in turn lead to
more material and social wealth.

~~~
Simulacra
The same way, for instance, Chinese wealth has purchased high social rewards
in America; university placement for their children, investments, politics,
etc. Wealth and influence seem to ahhh trump all, so to speak.

------
isoprophlex
Under such a system, what happens to an individual if errors are made?

If you have 1000 million citizens, your social credit computation better have
a sub-ppm false positive rate, or else you risk ostracizing thousands of
innocent people.

Maybe on the whole it's worth it for the Chinese government.

Also, I wonder if increasing adoption of this system will create a black
market of 'score hackers', people that try to fuzz the algo's into giving free
or cheap social credit....

~~~
PredictorY
A callous government which oversees the lives of 1,000 million citizens isn't
concerned with thousands of false positives.

~~~
fao_
All governments are callous. Can you give an example of a bureaucracy that
isn't callous?

~~~
oculusthrift
not many that disregard human rights or are as callous as the chinese govt.

~~~
pishpash
When you get to 1 billion, your representatives will be as callous. (Already
on the way there, actually.) Government is just a mirror of the people, even
in China.

~~~
PredictorY
I disagree. I argue that the Chinese government and the one I live under (in
the United States) could hardly be more different. The government of China was
established for the benefit of the rulers (the Party). The American Founding
Fathers said "Government is like fire: It makes a good servant, but a poor
master." Our Constitution was written primarily to constrain the government.

Only two countries have gotten to 1 billion inhabitants, and I'd say that the
government of India is much less callous or calculating than that of China.

~~~
fao_
Founding intention does not matter. Modern Russia was founded on the idea that
all people are equal and that workers should be respected, that doesn't mean
that that happens.

The founders of Communist Russia intended that the state be dissolved by 1980,
that it be replaced by councils that work together in coöperation, such that
everyone has a say. Did that bear fruit? No.

Did the founding fathers intend for the United States to spy on every single
one of their citizens? No. Does it happen? Yes. Did the founding fathers
intend for the state to be able to detain foreigners of the US indefinitely
without trial? No. The patriot act allows it, however.

You cannot judge a country by founding principals and safeguards alone, they
are easy to repeal and change; you can only judge a country on the _current
legislature_ and how much the current Constitution constrains the government.

~~~
PredictorY
I feel that this discussion has wandered. Are you arguing that the Chinese
government is concerned with false positives in their social scoring system?

~~~
fao_
I'm arguing that the US and China are closer than you might think with regards
to the goals of surveillance and tyrrany. The difference in founding
intentions are irrelevant.

------
amaccuish
There's a chinese girl in my russian class, so I asked her about it. She
thought it was a great idea so people can't leave without paying their debts,
and can't get further into debt.

~~~
SOLAR_FIELDS
Until your inability to leave your current city for better opportunities in
another stifles your ability to get out of the first debt, of course.

~~~
amaccuish
A valid argument.

------
cryoshon
for some reason i haven't seen many people discuss china as a totalitarian
country.

but is there really any doubt, at this point? the government seeks to control
an ever-greater range of human behaviors, from the banal -- like borrowing an
umbrella -- to the political.

it's unclear to me whether the chinese people want this sort of system for
whatever reason or whether it's being forced onto them. what is clear to me is
that this system would warrant a prompt and violent revolution if a similar
implementation was attempted here.

once these systems take root, become normalized, and start to change the way
that people behave, a society's chance at freedom is finished...

~~~
pishpash
The unit of account is different. Totally untethered _individual_ freedom is
unknown in East Asia and paternalistic societies have been around forever to
enforce group norms.

Different values for different folks. Some people are happy to live in
conservative, stable, conformist, and low-risk societies (whether because they
are brought up in such or not, though usually the former). Some people are
not.

~~~
forapurpose
> Totally untethered individual freedom is unknown in East Asia

It's an old argument used by dictators to justify their repression:
'Individual freedom isn't our value; it's a Western thing.' But these are
inalienable universal rights, not some cultural preference. If people want to
live as the Chinese Communist Party says or in some other way, they have a
right to the freedom, the self-determination, to make that choice.

The quote above is also obviously false. East Asia has free countries
including Japan and South Korea. China has free regions, including Taiwan and,
to an extent, Hong Kong. (Not coincidentally, these are by far the most
prosperous political entities in East Asia.) The people of Taiwan and Hong
Kong seem less than excited about giving up their freedom. Cultures all over
the world implement and embrace these values, from East Asia to South Asia to
Europe to almost all of the Americas. The only ones who don't are those who
aren't given a choice.

~~~
megaman22
Confucianism, Taoism, and Buddhism have put down roots as deep or deeper than
Lutheran and Calvanist ideals in the west. It's a mistake to discount history.

------
SOLAR_FIELDS
How close China has become to something out of 1984 is truly disturbing

~~~
gowld
1984 wasn't written as fantasy horror fiction. It was an informed and reasoned
extrapolation of the then-present into the future, with some adventure fiction
elements.

Sadly, this turn of events was not unexpected.

------
Simulacra
Tangentially related, the Daniel Suarez sequel novel, Freedom(TM) presents a
similar scenario. People will have a rating system based on their interactions
with others (think eBay) and you can see that rating. Four stars out of a base
of 81 interactions - from the postman to your boss. I have a hunch that
China's generally compliant, anti-antagonistic society, makes the Chinese
system easier to implement. In a western country, I think it would turn south
really, really quickly and for much worse.

------
faitswulff
Sesame Credit really creeps me out, but give it a few years and you'll see
LifeHacker articles on "10 Ways to Raise Your Sesame Credit Score!"

