
When Dungeons and Dragons Set Off a Moral Panic - ingve
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/04/18/us/when-dungeons-dragons-set-off-a-moral-panic.html
======
riprowan
My friend's mom was very concerned about our D&D gaming. This was 1982. She
even went so far as to provide us with tapes of ministers decrying D&D as
satanic (which we found hilarious).

However I have to hand it to her. A child of the 60s herself, she knew that
there was no point in forbidding it. So, she opened her house to it, so "at
least it will be happening where I can see it."

Once she was exposed firsthand to the amount of totally harmless riotous fun
we were having - totally sober and clothed, mind you - she changed her mind
entirely.

~~~
Grishnakh
Let this be a lesson about listening to ministers about anything.

------
yolesaber
I was almost kicked out of my catholic high school in 2006 because I was
running a DnD group after school and the administration found out. I had to
have several parent teacher conferences which mostly consisted of my mom and I
trying to stifle laughter as the principal drew a path of my moral degeneracy
(in terms of severity) from playing DnD, to cutting myself, to Wicca and
finally, yes, to Islam. I think they saw one of the characters in my campaign
was D'jinn or something.

~~~
make3
Where was this?

~~~
yolesaber
South Shore of Massachusetts

------
duncan_bayne
I once attended a Church presentation on D&D with my D&D group - all atheists
- to figure out what was going on. This was back in, what, 1995?

Anyway the gist of it was that they were opposed to D&D (and any
entertainment) that presented the occult and paganism (from their perspective)
as anything other than unadulterated evil. D&D was only a small part of it.
Their main objection was to television shows; the example they cited was in
all seriousness an episode of Duck Tales that featured "pyramid energy" in a
positive light.

Strangely, this made some sense to me - if you start from their premises that
the Bible is literal truth and is an instruction manual for a moral life.

We wrote it off as another example of religion - or indeed any irrational
philosophy - corrupting the minds of otherwise good and intelligent adults ;)

~~~
simonh
Measured concern about something unfamiliar, or with elements contrary to
one's beliefs is certainly reasonable, as long as it's proportionate. My
parents are devout Christians and were a little concerned about D&D and were
aware of the controversy, but we had a few short conversations on the subject
and that was that. Fair enough.

I did have a really good laugh at some of the Jack Chick comics. That was the
extreme end of the ant-D&D looney fringe, but it was so infantile in it's
extreme depictions and outrageous in it's claims that I saw it as a valuable
tool. I'm sure he did do a lot of damage and caused some harm, but for me
being able to point to something so clearly absurd seemed helpful. I was
confident that anyone in my circle of family or acquaintances would be able to
see the absurd side of the claims by Chick and his kind. That meant anyone
agitating against D&D or roleplaying games in general could be put on the
defensive because they would need to show that their objections weren't absurd
in the same way.

~~~
duncan_bayne
> as long as it's proportionate

Serious question: what's proportionate, if you believe that your children are
engaged in a 'game' that will literally cost them their souls?

~~~
VLM
A significant part of the genre of satan-fearing or whatever you call it, is
the devil is quite lazy, but its still worth banning.

For the standard HN car analogy, driving while drunk is perhaps only 10 times
more dangerous than driving sober. So ten times practically nothing is still
close to zero. So when the ball game lets out and 40K fans drive home and at
least half are legally drunk, there are no bodies stacked like cordwood,
because its just not that dangerous. However, virtually everyone agrees the
cost/benefit ratio, especially in the long term, is such that drunk driving
should be illegal. A standard HN golf analogy would be holding up your golf
club during a lightning storm, where the odds of getting lit up are extremely
low because a spark that jumped 10 kft isn't going to care about a primate
waving a stick, yet only an idiot would intentionally do it.

~~~
tamana
You are saying that DUI is not a meaningful danger?

~~~
VLM
Yeah, obviously. The rate isn't that much higher than sober drivers, and the
odds of being caught are extremely low. Its problem is the cost/benefit ratio
is extremely low. There's nothing to gain by permitting it (maybe more booze
sales, not really worth it) and plenty to gain by making it illegal (because
every death due to it is pointless).

Paradoxically most of our legal system is based on risk/reward ratios, not
level of risk. For example speeding is illegal although the odds of an
accident are extremely low. On the other hand climbing Mt Everest isn't
illegal at all, even though the death rate is about 50% or whatever it is now.
Smoking is not illegal although the odds of smoking killing a smoker are
pretty good, yet psychedelics are illegal despite the actual death rates and
counts being pretty close to zero.

~~~
simonh
Almost one third of all traffic related deaths in the US are caused by drunk
drivers. That's a very big slice of a pie that's way too big already.

~~~
VLM
See, you're agreeing with me. I pulled the actual numbers from Google and 40K
total traffic deaths out of 2.6M total deaths for the USA last year is about
one percent. So drinking related is a third of one percent. Its about a
hundred times more likely than getting hit by lightning, its hardly zero, but
its basically a rounding error in list of risks to worry about.

Lets say 100 times per year the local pro baseball stadium fills all 40K seats
and a mere 1/4 (probably more) drive home after some beers. So right there,
the odds of someone being killed in any individual baseball game related drunk
driving incident are under 1%, likely far, far lower, given that's hardly the
only pro sport, there are more baseball stadiums in the country than the one
nearby me, more than half the people sitting the stands have had a beer, and
almost all drinking happens outside baseball stadiums anyway.

However, I agree with you completely, its only banned because its a completely
senseless and avoidable risk to take, not because its highly risky. Its
measurably an extremely low risk, but the key is its a dumb risk to take,
which is the only reason why its illegal. Tobacco smoking on the other hand is
extremely high risk, but its not illegal, because most people don't see it as
senseless or dumb.

------
talmand
Ah, yes, good times.

It's a cycle, happens about every ten years or so. The usual "this example of
popular culture I don't like will destroy our youths!" type of thinking.

My favorite was that time Papa Smurf was converting the children because he
used magic. Oh, and the Smurfs were communists.

Take a look around, I'm sure you can find a current example of "video games is
responsible for this thing I don't like" syndrome.

~~~
darkclarity
Yeah, cycles of moral panic that were fuelled by the media when they had
nothing better to do. Nowadays though, it's fuelled by outrage culture on
social media, so the result is more schizophrenic.

------
a-saleh
Reading this reminded me of a friend of mine.

We went to the same church when we were young, where his parents sometimes had
very specific problems with some video-games.

It was long time ago, but I remember them having problem with Age Of Empires,
because "That is not how conversion works!" [1] :)

Playing Duke-Nukem was fine a.f.a.i.k.

[1] [https://youtu.be/Bwd10I4oJjo?t=311](https://youtu.be/Bwd10I4oJjo?t=311)

~~~
k__
Hehe, I had a friend whos parents were jehovas witnesses. Their parents didn't
want him to use special sounds on his digital keyboard, because they sounded
like ghosts and this was considered evil.

~~~
corecoder
How do ghosts sound? And how did they know?

~~~
talmand
Buddy, if you have to ask then I can't explain it to you. I know a ghost sound
when I hear it.

------
callinyouin
The initial thought of a bunch of adults freaking out about a harmless game is
pretty funny, but as someone who played a lot of D&D in their teenage years I
have to say I'm glad I "missed out" on this. I had pretty insular, highly
religious parents who would have definitely made sure I was nowhere near a
game of D&D and probably would have forbid me from hanging out with anyone who
played. I would have missed out on what I consider a really important part of
my childhood as a result. Not only that, but I truly believe playing D&D
helped me develop methods for abstract thought (through visualizing the game
world in my head, developing backstories and personalities for characters,
etc.) that likely contributed to my ability to understand abstract maths and
computer science. I honestly doubt I'd be the person I am today without this
game. Weird to think about.

------
duncan_bayne
Also, it's funny that the headline describes Dungeons and Dragons as setting
off a moral panic; I thought it was Christianity.

~~~
simonh
I don't understand why this is getting down voted. It's a perfectly sensible
comment. If a moral panic is being propagated and promoted by an organised
group with an agenda against something innocuous, who is responsible for the
panic?

I don't really mind the title, nobody's demanding that it be revised and it's
clear what is meant, but I think it's reasonable to point out where the
responsibility lies.

~~~
zyx321
HN doesn't really seem to appreciate humor or sarcasm very much.

~~~
duncan_bayne
My reply was intended to be perfectly serious. It really was not Dungeons and
Dragons triggering anything, and the headline is just wrong.

~~~
mac01021
I think your point is valid and the way you phrased it amusing. I would never
downvote it.

That said, the position is not wholly different from "laws are the leading
cause of crime" or "the ebola outbreak did not cause people to panic - it was
their desire to live and be healthy".

~~~
pimlottc
How about "Sexy clothes incite rape"?

~~~
mac01021
Interesting. I don't think it's quite the same thing.

The first three statements all roughly take the form "if only you would stop
regarding X as Y, then you would stop observing Y when X happens".

"Just stop regarding the content of D&D as morally corrupting, and then you
will not need to panic when you find your children playing it."

"Just stop considering robbery to be illegal, and then crime rates will
plummet."

"Just stop wanting to be healthy and then you won't mind the ebola outbreaks
when they occur."

By contrast, "Stop dressing so sexy and then noone will rape you anymore" is
not a suggestion that you can make a problem go away simply by ceasing to
regard it as a problem. It may be an absurd attempt to transfer blame by
stripping the rapists of their moral agency, but it proposes to solve a
problem in the world by taking a physical action in the world.

------
sharkweek
Heh - thinking back to my youth, when my mom, bless her heart, didn't want me
playing MTG, so I had to play SWCCG instead.

Got the same satisfaction out of it I suppose, and my social circle was all
pretty into the SW game as well so I don't know if it really mattered that
much. Not to mention I had a black border Darth Vader, which at the time made
me the "coolest" kid in my friend group for a short period of time.

~~~
k__
My mother never forbade me to play any games and generally made not much
rules.

It always felt strange to me, visiting a friend who can only play special
games or only play for one hour a day etc.

------
yannis7
Back in the day if you were playing D&D you were worshipping the devil - now
if you play video games you hate various societal groups.

So interesting how puritanism evolves

~~~
spriggan3
> So interesting how puritanism evolves

More like the main stream media which love to run these "white male
gamers/developers pushing women/minorities out of gaming/tech" stories. Their
business is outrage, that's the result of the click bait culture. They don't
do that because they believe in that crap, they do that because it drives ad-
revenue. Unfortunately they don't understand that by publish content that
sides with extreme ideas,they are alienating their own audience on the long
run.

~~~
jt2190
I've up voted you because IIRC some game producers have been caught running
fake protest groups.

[http://kotaku.com/5289471/eas-fake-protest-riles-some-
religi...](http://kotaku.com/5289471/eas-fake-protest-riles-some-religious)

As they say, there's no such thing as bad publicity.

------
hoodoof
Well, AD&D certainly put me on my path to worshipping Satan. I thank TSR for
that. I've never looked back.

~~~
venomsnake
Lawful evil or bust! I also took driving lessons from Carmaggedon ...

------
Shivetya
I always was curious who these people were. Raised in the average Catholic
family D&D and many early fantasy games on our PC were considered harmless
fun. Perhaps it came from the fact that we always had books around and were
encouraged to read. About the only time I ever remember issues with D&D and
Arduin Grimoire type games were the "jocks" some of whom would pick on our
group. When the PC and such rolled around (Apple 2 as well) many of them were
just as fascinated.

~~~
Grishnakh
>Raised in the average Catholic family D&D and many early fantasy games on our
PC were considered harmless fun. ... When the PC and such rolled around (Apple
2 as well)...

I went to Catholic school when the Apple ][ was current. The teachers strongly
warned us not to play D&D.

------
jakub_h
As a person from a country with <20% of religious people, about half of them
(lukewarm) Catholics, reading some of these comments, the only thing that
comes to my mind is...W.T.F.?

~~~
TranquilMarmot
We specifically say we have "freedom of religion" in the U.S., and
unfortunately a lot of people take that to mean "the freedom to impose my
religion on others".

It varies greatly from state to state; everywhere I grew up and went to
school, there were a lot less religious conservatives so it wasn't an issue
for me. But sometimes visiting other states, it can be a bit of a shock to see
the amount of religious bumper stickers, house decorations, clothing, etc.

~~~
pc86
I had no idea that religious clothing and bumper stickers constituted imposing
one's religion on others.

~~~
TranquilMarmot
By imposing I was more talking about the article itself- I don't mind the
t-shirts or bumper stickers, they're just visible evidence that some parts of
the country are different than others.

------
teh_klev
Recently and related discussion:

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11225579](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11225579)

------
at-fates-hands
Interesting the article references the disappearance of James Dallas Egbert
III but makes no mention of the tv show that aired on CBS in 1982 that was
based on this incident.

I thought it was one of Tom Hanks better performances. [/sarcasm]

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mazes_and_Monsters](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mazes_and_Monsters)

~~~
dustinchilson
The video above the article does mention the show.

------
mathattack
My parents were more enlightened. I had very lax curfew standards - if I was
out until 2am, it was because I was playing Dungeons and Dragons with the
other nerds. If my brother was out past 11pm, it was because he was up to no
good. :-)

To a person the group I played D&D with ultimately ended up in professional
jobs. With a sample size of 20+ over the years, we all finished college. At
least half got graduate degrees. A couple have made major impacts on science
and technology.

There was one friend whose parents went a little overboard with the moral
panic. Despite that, he came out ok too. :-)

One year at GenCon (even better than "at Band Camp") a cop at my table
mentioned that criminal behavior for games was almost unmeasurable compared to
the general population.

~~~
Kevguy
> One year at GenCon (even better than "at Band Camp") a cop at my table
> mentioned that criminal behavior for games was almost unmeasurable compared
> to the general population.

Unclear probably because I'm tired - Do you mean the criminal behavior of
gamers when they are not playing games? As opposed to their (imaginary)
criminal acts in the game?

~~~
mathattack
My typo doesn't help. Basically gamers get into real life trouble much less
than non-gamers.

------
dekhn
If it wasn't for D&D, I never would have known asmodeus was the most powerful
devil!

------
nxzero
Anti-Dungeons & Dragons Propaganda Booklet:
[http://www.theescapist.com/BADDbook.htm](http://www.theescapist.com/BADDbook.htm)

According to a review on Amazon for Pat Pulling's book, an anti-D&D author
who's mentioned in the article, Pat admited to "butchering pets" with her son;
unable to find a source backing that up though; Pat's book on Amazon:
[http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/0910311633/](http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/0910311633/)

------
tamana
Did the NYT help propagate that moral panic?

~~~
salgernon
No, it only mentions that D&D was being reported as motivation for a 16 year
old that went missing in 1977. It concluded that series of articles with a
simple statement that D&D was not in any way associated with the boys
disappearance or his eventual return. ("Accio bratty teenager!")

------
jrralls
I actually made a movie based upon the Jack Chick "Dark Dungeons" comic and
tried my hardest to make a faithful to the spirit adaption. I think the
results speak for themsevles; www.darkdungeonsthemovie.com

------
bchjam
as a kid in the late 80s, the news convinced my grandma that DnD was training
me to be a satanist w/ suicidal pacts around the characters and all

