

Want to own a book? Buy a hard copy. Amazon, Apple, B&N eBooks are only licensed - merryandrew
https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&pid=explorer&chrome=true&srcid=0B0dHWWB95PdkNGJkMTgxNjAtNmZmNi00YWEzLWIwYWUtNjE2OGVkNzBjZTlh&hl=en_US

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shrikant
_Lastly, it’s important to point out that the Kindle does not support the
popular, open and free ePub format, which means the Kindle will be unable to
borrow from libraries that lend ePub titles._

This is disingenuous, and getting a little tiring honestly now. The Amazon
Kindle can read ebooks in the .mobi format fine, which is based on the Open
eBook standard [1] just as the EPUB format. (EPUBs may be technically superior
to MOBIs, but that's a different issue altogether)

EPUBs can be converted to the MOBI format fairly easily. Inconvenient? Yes.
Evil, locked in system? No.

[1] <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_eBook>

~~~
merryandrew
Saying the Kindle does not support ePubs is simply a literal statement.
Interestingly, the Kindle will support ePubs soon, and thus libraries that
lend ePubs, but the paper was written last year, before Amazon even hinted at
supporting ePubs.

~~~
mikecane
It is unlikely Amazon will switch to ePub. What's happening with library loans
is that Amazon will mirror in Kindle format the ePub catalogs each library
has.

~~~
Legion
I thought that too but apparently Amazon is telling publishers they can start
submitting books to the Amazon Store "to be listed in the Amazon store in ePub
format": [http://www.thebookseller.com/news/amazon-accept-epub-
files.h...](http://www.thebookseller.com/news/amazon-accept-epub-files.html)

I hope this does in fact mean ePub support is coming in a Kindle update.

~~~
mikecane
The Bookseller is quoting a blog run by known pirates. [http://www.the-
digital-reader.com/2011/05/02/the-goodereader...](http://www.the-digital-
reader.com/2011/05/02/the-goodereader-com-pirates-are-at-it-again/)

People who know their rep have not been taken in.

------
cornell532
This is a silly conversation.

In either case it's a license. The difference is what the license is bound to.

Amazon kindle ebooks are bound to my Amazon account (I can read same book on
my Android or Amazon Kindle device as long as I sign in with same account).

With a physical book, the material is literally bound to the pages of the
book.

In neither case do I _own_ the copyright. It's the same as owning a film on
DVD or VHS.

You cannot make copies of the content of the book to sell it, you cannot take
large excerpts of the book and sell those either. In short, you do _not_ have
full intellectual property rights to the book.

You have licensed a single copy for the purpose of _reading_ the book.

~~~
archangel_one
It's not the same thing. In neither case do you own the copyright to the book,
but when buying a physical book you legally own that copy of the book. The key
difference here being illustrated by that fiasco a couple of years back when
Amazon revoked people's access to the copies of 1984 they had on their
Kindles. With a physical book they are not allowed to do that (and physically
cannot do it anyway).

~~~
tsuraan
I think if a bookseller had been making copies of 1984 without permission from
the right holder, and you had bought one of these copies, the right holder
would have demanded its return. Had you refused, I think you may have been in
violation of some law (possession of stolen goods?). I have no idea whether
they would have been able to raid your house to recover the book, but it
wouldn't surprise me. I'm obviously not a lawyer...

~~~
phaylon
An illegal copy of a book is not a stolen good, since it has not been taken
away.. In most countries I'd expect the buying of the illegal copy of the book
itself not to be criminal (and certainly not leading to home raids), but the
distribution the bookseller did, since he did not have the license to do that.

On the other side, I would expect that many countries have laws that would
prohibit a bookseller from selling you a hard-copy but writing in the terms of
service that they're free to enter your home to retrieve it for reasons they
decide on, since it'd be a very surprising clause.

Edit: s/reading/leading/

~~~
sliverstorm
_In most countries I'd expect the buying of the illegal copy of the book
itself not to be criminal_

Why? If you make it legal to buy pirated works, and allow the purchaser to
keep the purchased copy, you remove all burden from the consumer to validate
the authenticity of the goods they are purchasing.

A consumer should not be so vulnerable as to be terrified of purchasing any
book, but they should not be immune, especially if they purchased the
illegitimate copy knowing it was illegitimate.

~~~
phaylon
If there are laws against buying of goods you know are stolen, then of course
you are correct. However, if that's not in place, then the buyer didn't
violate any laws (since he didn't break the copyright) or contracts.

To circle back to the original point, wouldn't it be kind of outrageous if a
police team were allowed to storm your home and violate your right to privacy
in search for an illegal copy of 1984?

~~~
pbhjpbhj
> _wouldn't it be kind of outrageous if a police team were allowed to storm
> your home and violate your right to privacy in search for an illegal copy of
> 1984?_

No more outrageous than if they were taking a copy of a DVD that you'd
acquired that was produced by copyright infringement.

I think the police (in my country) do have power to retrieve goods on order of
the court because you've committed a tort, contributory copyright
infringement. If you were aware that you were supporting an act of
infringement by paying for the goods produced by that act then I'd expect you
could also be sued successfully.

The economics don't work well for the company suing though so this is an
unlikely reality.

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rbanffy
O'Reilly sells their ebooks without DRM. I haven't read their licensing terms,
but I suspect them to be very liberal. Their page says they trust you to do
the right thing.

~~~
abecedarius
Pragmatic Programmers too. This is the only sort of ebook I buy.

~~~
merryandrew
If your public library offers the Books24x7 service, you might just borrow
these too. KCLS offers it and it's great. <http://www.kcls.org/downloads/>

Not necessarily O'Reilly, but many popular publishers -- Apress, Cengage,
Cambridge University, Wrox Press, etc.

------
pbhjpbhj
In the US you have the right to format shift [other] media for personal under
the so-called "fair use" exceptions (7 USC 107,
<http://www.copyright.gov/title17/92chap1.html#107>), don't you?

This creates an absurdity.

You can purchase the book and scan it, create your own EPUB and own that copy
(but only use one copy at a time!) or you can purchase the EPUB (or whatever
format) and have a much more limited license.

Of course scanning a book is hard work. You'll want to outsource that. So you
buy a book of the shelf, the company scan it for you - your book, your format
shift, hired help - and forward your copy of the book (now in EPUB format) and
kindly dispose of the book for you.

You're now using paper as a digital transmission medium, wasting a whole lot
of energy, producing a lot of waste and the result to the customer is the same
as if the publisher just sold you the book in EPUB format at the regular books
store price¹.

Of course I'm sure common sense will win out in the courts ...

\--

1 - I'm assuming a book shop could scan the books and cover their costs in the
usual retail margin by not needing a high street location and by selling the
books on for pulping.

Aside I - In the UK there is no "fair use" but instead a far more restrictive
idea of "fair dealing", see www.ipo.gov.uk/ipreview-doc-j.pdf for a recent
comparison.

Aside II - Australia
([http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/cth/consol_act/ca1968133/...](http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/cth/consol_act/ca1968133/s110aa.html))
have a similar format shifting provision but it specifically applies to
"videotape embodying a cinematograph film in analog form" which is messed up
in more ways than one.

------
merryandrew
Since we do not own eBooks from Amazon, Apple and the like, maybe a Netflix-
like service for eBooks needs to be created. I read 6-10 books a month, and if
I could pay $10/month to read them like I do with movies at Netflix, it would
be nice. Instead, Amazon and the like charge users to license each copy at
$10/each and up, usually, which is such a ripoff. Amazon can sell virtual
goods to us, but we can't resell them after we finish using them? Such a
ripoff. At the most, Amazon should charge a small rental fee for their eBooks.

------
Tichy
What happens to all those licenses when you die? Are they eternal licenses,
lifelong licenses or what?

Granted, most of my books will probably just bore my kids by the time I die,
but still, it bothers me a little that I might not even be able to pass on my
library.

~~~
merryandrew
Good question. Can people inherit eBooks? I think not.

~~~
mikecane
Put your account name and password in your Will and Amazon or any other
company will never know. Do any TOS contain "Services terminated upon your
death" clauses? I don't think so.

~~~
merryandrew
Pulling a fast one on Amazon is possible, sure, but does this maneuver violate
the Amazon terms of service? Speaking of the TOS, it would be worth checking
to see what is actually written.

~~~
Steko
Most of these services allow organizations buy copies. So then your Merry
Andrew Reading Club LLC can perhaps transfer rights as needed when you pass
on.

~~~
pbhjpbhj
Yes, but then you would have to legally establish the "Merry Andrew Reading
Club LLC" and use it to purchase the books if you want to remain lawful.

------
wccrawford
Want to own an eBook? Buy a DRM-free one. There are plenty of places that sell
DRM-free eBooks, including fiction and technical reference.

~~~
hugh3
I use my Nook exclusively for out-of-copyright stuff. Great for long plane
rides. If I want to read something _specific_ I'll acquire it on paper, but if
I just want to read _something_ then I'm sure I can find something in the pre-
early-20th-century archives of the English language.

Current kick: early PG Wodehouse.

------
quanticle
Even if you buy a book, you're still only getting a license to the one copy of
the book as manifested in the stack of bound pages that you hold. You don't
have rights to make and give/sell copies of your own.

~~~
merryandrew
When you buy a hard copy you actually own it, you do not license it, and you
can do with it as you please as long as you do not infringe on the rights of
the copyright holder. You can sell it, lend it, etc.

eBooks are licensed. You cannot sell them, or lend them unless the right to
lend is granted in the licensing agreement. I like the eBook format, but
ownership is superior to licensing. Far superior.

~~~
awj
> You cannot sell them, or lend them

Yes, because it doesn't even make sense. This is why I simply don't understand
this conversation. There's nothing for me to _resell_ , because we're
discussing a virtual good. Implicit in the resale of an item is that _I can no
longer possess that item_.

Talking about reselling eBooks makes almost as much sense as talking about
reselling the sandwich I just ate for dinner. The only mechanism for creating
personal value has been _irrevocably_ consumed.

The points of ownership, right to resale, and lending are important ones. They
represent a fundamental divide between two entirely different technologies
used for the same purpose. At a very basic level comparing eBooks to print
books makes almost no sense. As soon as we can dispense with the comparison we
can start thinking about each system according to the value it creates.

~~~
Dylan16807
What do you mean? Ebooks don't get _consumed_ , they don't _degrade_. And how
you sell it is quite obvious. Like you said, the new person possesses it and
you _no longer possess it_. Give them the file and delete any temporary copies
you may have.

~~~
quanticle
That isn't an analogous scenario. The problem with trying to compare physical
and virtual goods is that, for virtual goods, transferring _requires_ copying.
There is no way to transfer an electronic data file without copying it in some
way. Until such a process is developed, analogies between physical and virtual
goods will always be flawed.

------
bhousel
Why would I want to own a book?

~~~
merryandrew
Why would you want to own anything?

~~~
electromagnetic
Different people feel different ways on ownership. I personally can't wait to
own a house. I know my in-laws have never owned where they live, not because
they can't but because they don't want to.

They like the fact that someone else cuts the lawn, someone else fixes the
major appliances, etc. They like that they can call someone and give them shit
when their roof leaks and someone else will deal with the repair.

I like to own things, and I'm not sure why. However, when it comes to digital
data I accept that I'm paying for convenience over ownership. MP3's even if I
only license them, sure kick the ass of having to rummage through a pile of
CD's just to listen to one song.

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tybris
Why would I want to own a book? It's a piece of dead tree. It's not like I own
the contents.

~~~
InclinedPlane
When you own something you can keep it forever, you can pass it down to your
children or give it (or sell it) to others. When you license something you can
lose access on the whim of the licensor. Considering the importance of the
dissemination of ideas, sometimes subversive ideas, through books, this point
should not be taken lightly.

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phlux
Or a printer?

~~~
pbhjpbhj
I think you mean a scanner (or better yet outsource it), see my other comment
above.

