
Amazon Selects New York City and Northern Virginia for New Headquarters - appwiz
https://blog.aboutamazon.com/company-news/amazon-selects-new-york-city-and-northern-virginia-for-new-headquarters
======
SippinLean
> Long Island City is a mixed-use community where arts and industry intersect

It's mostly empty warehouses, housing projects, and luxury condos. There's
very little in terms of culture or even basic needs, like grocery stores.

> Long Island City has some of the best transit access in New York City, with
> 8 subway lines, 13 bus lines, commuter rail, a bike-sharing service, and
> ferries serving the area

Realistically it's the densely overcrowded 7 train, getting worse each year,
with no relief in sight. Once the L shuts down in 2019 the G will be
absolutely overrun.

> and LaGuardia and JFK airports are in close proximity

Getting to LGA involves taking a train to a bus, by car it's a breeze, JFK is
an hour away by train.

~~~
Eric_WVGG
I spend a lot of time passing through in this neighborhood, and can mostly
confirm this.

In fact, about those luxury condos and housing projects… they're _very_ new,
popping up within the past two years and more coming all the time. I’ve been
wondering for years what kind of people make the sort of money to afford these
places and would also _want_ to live in that area… now I wonder if this
decision wasn't made long ago, and word was carefully leaked to various
developers to get the housing ready.

It’s not enough to store 25,000 workers, but it’s a lot. Maybe I’m naive but I
feel like the immediate area can contain this, with minimal spillover to
Manhattan and Brooklyn. (Like, if the workers want to. The area is definitely
not the kind of hipster chic or glamour chic or any chic that people come to
New York for.)

~~~
mswiss
I highly doubt this was leaked to developers, I think this was developers
realizing that long island city was within close proximity to Manhattan and
people want luxury rentals without the price of paying for one in Manhattan.

~~~
magic_beans
This is exactly why my partner and I live there. It's cheaper, cleaner, and
generally calmer than Manhattan. Plus, we have an extraordinary view of the
Manhattan skyline from a terrace we could NEVER afford in Manhattan.

------
isaacdl
Wouldn't you call two new offices that are smaller than the headquarters
"satellite offices"?

It really does feel like Amazon successfully played a lot of municipalities
against each other to try and extract the biggest concessions, knowing all
along that it didn't make sense to try and hire 50000 people in a decade in
any one location.

I know that's how the game is played, but it's still feels a little
disingenuous.

~~~
screye
> Wouldn't you call two new offices that are smaller than the headquarters
> "satellite offices"?

Not quite.

Amazon has satellite offices, that employ an order of magnitude fewer
employees.

At 25k/branch, the term "regional headquarters" can be considered justified.

They did game the system though. Feels like they negotiated tax benefits with
50k employees in mind, and kept the same benefits while only giving locations
25k each.

This is good for tech in the east coast. Fin-tech firms WILL HAVE TO compete
against Amazon for (supposed) west coast wages, and could help build a much
stronger tech industry than NYC has atm.

Cornell tech much be so happy with their choice to open office on Roosevelt
island. I can see them being the biggest winners out of this whole set of
events. NYU is probably also happy, having acquired NYU poly a few years ago.

~~~
burger_moon
> Fin-tech firms WILL HAVE TO compete against Amazon for (supposed) west coast
> wages, and could help build a much stronger tech industry than NYC has atm.

Those fin-tech companies almost certainly pay more than Amazon already. IIRC
amazon has a cap of 275k for base pay, which means even if you're James
Gosling that's the most you're getting, the rest has to come from RSUs which
amazon also has a terrible vesting structure for. Amazon is regarded as a top-
tier tech company, but their pay is not on par with any of the other companies
(Google, FB, Uber, etc).

More tech presence is good, but I don't think big name companies are going to
be too worried about their employees leaving to get paid less and have fewer
benefits.

~~~
screye
I am not sure if I agree with you on wage distributions.

Sure, Google and FB pay more and so do top investment banks / hedge funds in
math/stat/algo positions . However, those simply are not the bulk of fintech
employees.

The majority of fintech SDEs at GS,Morgan,etc. are working on software
engineering and maintenance work. These roles pay closer to the $100k number
than Amazon's quoted $150k. At least for new hires.

~~~
candybar
Pretty much this and fintech isn't this one thing that pays well but ranges
from highly paid domain experts to generalists working on maintaining legacy
systems. most generalists are not usually paid that well by SV big tech
standards and the work environment is generally not as great. Amazon is more
than competitive enough against the bulk of software engineering roles even at
top investment banks and you will see lots of ex-top-IB engineers already
working in their NYC office.

------
alehul
Why do we give Amazon subsidies but not small businesses, who altogether
provide over 50% of the jobs in America? The reason, as I understand it, is
because Amazon as a single corporate entity provides far more jobs and holds
more power.

Following that: Wouldn't the small businesses, due to our anti-trust
regulations, actually be considered a cartel if they tried to negotiate as a
group and gain the same tax advantages that Amazon has?

So, with that in mind, don't we have some very arbitrary laws? If I could buy
up a few small businesses and negotiate with them as pawns, but without a
common owner, it's anti-trust behavior?

Maybe I'm misunderstanding this; IANAL, but would love to hear someone's
opinion. Though game theory would likely prevent their continued cooperation,
it seems quite unfair for small businesses that are unable, even in theory, to
collectively negotiate on the same scale as Amazon.

~~~
arrosenberg
Also not a lawyer, but cartel behavior usually refers to price-fixing and
other anti-competitive behavior. Small businesses banding together the way you
described would just be lobbying and already happens frequently.

Amazon should be investigated for anti-competitive practices, and their
ability to negotiate this kind of a circus is certainly an indication of that.
The problem has been two-fold -

1\. The Sherman act is over 100 years old and was written to target 19th
century trusts like Standard Oil and the railroads. These need to be updated
to reflect new types of models of trusts and conglomeration (and accumulation
of power) that have developed.

2\. Enforcement - the SEC and FTC are largely toothless and everyone knows it.
If you are a company that can afford a team of lawyers, its unlikely you will
be penalized in a way that actually hurts.

~~~
asr
The SEC does not enforce the antitrust laws. Do you mean the DOJ?

If you are going to take unsubstantiated potshots at government agencies you
would sound more credible if you at least picked the right agencies.

* * *

On the substantive question here, I agree that small businesses already band
together to lobby the government for special treatment. It's not an antitrust
violation to ask the government for things, even if you couldn't get together
and do those things directly:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noerr%E2%80%93Pennington_doctr...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noerr%E2%80%93Pennington_doctrine).

------
schnevets
As a New Yorker, I am super disappointed that they chose Long Island City.
There were contenders where this stimulus could have been a paradigm shift.
Instead, it's just a drop in the bucket for a city that is already growing
recklessly.

My vote was for Newark, personally. Plenty of office space; access to NJIT,
Rutgers, and Princeton; and good public transit that connects directly into
NYC. Bezos and co. could have done some real good, but instead they will just
be contributing to New York's biggest gripes (unsustainable subways, housing
shortages, and an aggregation of labor into a few metropolitan areas).

~~~
patrickmay
I was really hoping for Raleigh and/or Dallas. Instead, Amazon picked two
places where the cost of living is worse than Seattle.

~~~
akhilcacharya
I'm from Raleigh but I"m not convinced Raleigh-area schools have the talent
required and willing.

~~~
electricslpnsld
The Triangle has a number of good schools: Duke and UNC are both in the top 25
CS programs in the US. I've worked with some NCSU CS grads in the past and
they've also been great.

~~~
akhilcacharya
Duke and UNC are tiny CS programs. I went to NC State, and it's definitely not
in the same tier for undergrad.

------
lbarrow
Newly elected Democrats in the NY state legislature might block the NYC Amazon
subsidies and put the funds into student debt relief instead:
[https://capitalandmain.com/will-new-york-fund-amazon-
subsidi...](https://capitalandmain.com/will-new-york-fund-amazon-subsidies-or-
student-debt-relief-1113)

~~~
blindwatchmaker
The current situation we have is insane. It's like the height of the gilded
age with no trust busting in sight, the largest corporations in the land buy
out politicians and are openly taking public money.

~~~
enraged_camel
It's worth noting that not all politicians fall for this crap. Austin's Mayor,
for all his flaws, refused to give any incentives to Amazon.

~~~
bilbo0s
A lot of mayors did that. Truth be told, even New York City's mayor did that.

Problem is that it doesn't make a difference. Lots of other mayors _will_ give
the incentives. And, as in the case of NYC, sometimes the governors will come
in and override the decision not to give subsidies anyway. (Although in the
case of NYC it likely wouldn't have really mattered. I suspect they would have
won the HQ2 subsidies or no subsidies.)

~~~
AnimalMuppet
Lots of mayors will give the incentives? Fine. Let them. If you think it's a
bad idea - or even a bad idea for your city - then don't give them. If someone
else will make the mistake, let them make the mistake (and reap the
consequences).

------
kodablah
Tax kickbacks of $48k/job in NY and $22k/job in VA wth average salary of
$150k/yr. Also $325mil in NY and $23mil in VA for just occupying the space.
All well below the projected billions in direct investment and tax amounts.

Not sure whether worth it or not, but it's all around economic growth which I
see as a good thing in general. We can argue about public funds and growing
pains, but this problem is better than the opposite problem. If you are in the
area and oppose along with the majority of your peers, say so at the polls.
But I wouldn't be surprised to find that, outside of pro-tax/anti-big-corp
circles, this is gleefully welcomed.

~~~
rb808
> $48k/job in NY

That is over 10 years, so is like $5k a year.

~~~
noer
even then, assuming 15k jobs in New York is $75MM/yr, which is a lot of money.

~~~
bilbo0s
That's nothing.

Especially for a place like New York.

Consider, in Wisconsin, we have to pay on the order of roughly USD400M to
USD500M per year, for about the next ten years. And we're a state that,
compared to New York, is mired in abject poverty.

And to add insult to injury, that USD400M per year is for only _HALF_ the jobs
that New York is getting. And they don't pay as well.

Yeah, not a good time to be a Wisconsinite.

~~~
addicted
Wisconsin also doesn’t have corporate taxes so a lot of the Foxconn benefits
were structured as direct payments rather than tax breaks.

And many weren’t even dependent on Foxconn employing a certain number of
people, which is why now that their plans have scaled down the numbers look
disastrous.

------
jesseryoung
Unless I'm misreading this, it looks like Nashville got the best deal

> Amazon will receive performance-based direct incentives of up to $102
> million based on the company creating 5,000 jobs with an average wage of
> over $150,000 in Nashville.

This is a pretty big deal for Nashville, and costing them only $12,000 per job
is a pretty big win.

~~~
ap24
As someone who lives in Nashville and can see the future location out my
office window, Nashville might be getting jobs but we don't have the
infrastructure to support what we already have. The post Amazon puts out makes
it sound like we have public transit (we basically don't) and the recently
downvoted transit bill means we can't readdress it anytime in the near future.
I don't really see anything good out of it for those of us who already live
here and have no interest in picking up one of those jobs.

~~~
empath75
Your salary will likely go up even if you don’t take one of those jobs.

------
ourmandave
As usual, the Onion nails it...

 _New York City Announces Subway Just For Amazon Employees Now_

[https://www.theonion.com/new-york-city-announces-subway-
just...](https://www.theonion.com/new-york-city-announces-subway-just-for-
amazon-employee-1830418104)

------
refurb
Let the real estate speculation begin!!

[https://www.wsj.com/articles/amazons-move-to-long-island-
cit...](https://www.wsj.com/articles/amazons-move-to-long-island-city-sparks-
condo-frenzy-1542116117)

~~~
melling
Grab a subway map of Queens.

The good thing about NYC is that no one needs to drive to work.

~~~
jfasi
The E/M/F/R tunnels are already some of the most congested, most delayed,
least pleasant segments in the entire city. As much as I welcome Amazon's
move, I don't envy the poor suckers who have to ride in and out of Queens.

~~~
ghaff
The "interesting" thing about that location is that it actually isn't
especially especially convenient for commutes to/from places where young well-
paid techies would normally choose to live.

~~~
nickdandakis
Out of curiosity, where do you think young well-paid techies live in the city?

Because I'm a young well-paid techie, and I live off of the G line in
Brooklyn, which this move would definitely affect.

~~~
mo1ok
Greenpoint, bushwick, wburg, bed-study, park slope, Clinton hill, LES.

~~~
infinite8s
Greenpoint is directly south of LIC. You can walk there in 30 minutes.

------
acheron
Interesting to see the Virginia state ("commonwealth") "incentives". At the
state level, the original VA pitch was out near Dulles (the currently state-
owned CIT land). Pitches for Arlington et al. were done by the county as far
as I know. Presumably once Amazon zeroed in on the Arlington area the state
was willing to go along.

(Apple has supposedly been in talks with the state about the CIT land as well,
just in a less public fashion than Amazon, so I assume something is still
going to go in there soon, whether Apple or something else.)

------
Cyclone_
Can't believe how many subsidies they got, to me it's a question of fairness,
why should we subsidize them, but not others? I get that they are doing the
community a service by creating high paying jobs, but there certainly have
been negative sides to what they've done (gentrification, poor working
conditions for many employees in their warehouses).

~~~
prolikewh0a
They're doing the community a service by creating high paying jobs? The people
will be shipped in from all around the world and displace the current
communities. This destroys communities. This segregates poor & lower income
people out. Only already rich people get to experience the benefits of this.

The subsidies and tax cuts they got are an embarrassment to our system and a
wonderful look into how this country isn't working for lower classes and small
local business that _actually_ build communities. Amazon doesn't need
subsidies, this is just a race to the bottom.

~~~
raiflip
That's partially true. Not sure where you are from, but as opposed to places
like San Francisco, NYC has a functioning real estate private sector that
reacts rationally to increases in demand by increasing supply. This is not to
say gentrification is not a thing, but it's not like in San Francisco where
there's basically a set housing stock and new people completely displace the
old people. Instead new people displace some of the old residents, but they
also rent or buy newly built housing. In the long run Amazon's choice is
probably good for nyc. It could be very good if nyc manages to get its act
together regarding subway and infrastructure.

~~~
sinker
And yet NYC still has some of the highest rent in the country. For someone
making 60k or less it doesn't matter much if the rent is 2k or 3k a month,
it's all totally unaffordable anyway and those people are either pushed
further out from where they work, or if they're young they split the rent
amongst 2-4 people.

~~~
raiflip
Those are Manhattan prices. If you travel more than 10 minutes outside
Manhattan the rent drops. This normally means long commutes, but with the new
HQ in queens, workers could commute from the cheaper parts of queens.

~~~
sinker
Maybe six or seven years ago. Any neighborhood close to Manhattan is already
dealing with the issue of high rent.

------
mikeash
What the heck is “National Landing”? I’ve lived in this area for over a decade
and that’s the first time I’ve heard the name.

~~~
basseq
I'm skeptical at the choice of Crystal City. (Sorry, that's where it is, call
it what you want.) I think being "urban" mattered a lot to them, and Crystal
City has the most opportunity for a significant tenant to move in.

But that "opportunity" is there because it's a secondary or tertiary choice
for employers. Considering that 70%+ people are commuters, a) there are more
desirable locations _no matter where_ you're coming from, and b) there's no
direct way to get there, other than Route 1, which is going to be a
_disaster_.

No major highways or arteries, Metro goes through Arlington first, etc.

If you live in DC, you have to leave the city. If you live to the west, you'd
prefer Dulles, Tysons, or Arlington. If you're to the south, it's Alexandria.
To the north, Bethesda. To the west... probably Baltimore, or you have to
drive all the way _through_ DC.

~~~
mtberatwork
Agreed, Crystal City is a terrible choice if you are trying to attract talent
in the DMV. Who wants to make that commute? Not sure why they didn't choose
Dulles - more space, new metro infrastructure, Dulles airport access and
existing AWS offices and data centers.

~~~
jocro
>Not sure why they didn't choose Dulles

Dulles is no better of a commute for most people in the DMV, _especially_
those that want to live within the DC/Arlington area.

~~~
mtberatwork
Well, there is no good commute in the DMV for one, but Dulles/Herndon/Tysons
at least has new metro stops and more highway infrastructure than to Crystal
City. Plus, Google, Oracle, Microsoft, AWS, et al are all already off the
Dulles toll road. If you are in tech, there is a high probability you are
headed out that direction anyway.

------
mrburkins
I still don't understand why NYC gave up so much by way of incentives and
subsidies. With things the way they are, seemingly Amazon needed NYC, way more
than NYC needed amazon.

------
rb808
If only we had a tunnel from Seacaucus to Grand Central. Thanks Chris.

------
imgabe
Both cities should pull their subsidy packages. Amazon negotiated in bad
faith, under false pretenses. The conditions under which any subsidies were
offered no longer apply.

~~~
AnimalMuppet
Could you state _what_ the false pretenses were, and how those conditions no
longer apply? All you have here is a dogmatic assertion with no supporting
information. Often that is done by people who have strong beliefs but no basis
for them, so if you have a basis, stating it can prevent you from getting
lumped in with the "dogmatic unreality" people.

~~~
drfuchs
Uh, that there will only be 25,000 jobs, and not the 50,000 promised.

~~~
AnimalMuppet
If the subsidies are per job, is that a problem? Pay half as much for half as
many jobs - seems reasonable to me. Doesn't seem like "false pretenses" in a
way that materially affects the deal.

~~~
drfuchs
It might be nice if the subsidies were granted “per job”, but it seems as
though they weren’t.

Also, it’s not yet public what these cities promised, but how do you “half
build” new transit infrastructure and such?

~~~
imgabe
Even if they are "per job", the per job price was still based on a total of
50,000 jobs.

If you go to Bob's widget factory and place an order for 50,000 widgets,
you'll likely get a different per widget price than if you place an order for
25,000 widgets.

If you say at first that you want 50,000 and Bob starts making preparations
for that many, then at the last minute you say "Nah, I only want 25,000", Bob
is rightfully going to be pissed and you're going to pay a higher per-widget
price if your order isn't cancelled altogether.

------
ctvo
The easiest way to think about these HQs for me:

\- Seattle - retail, logistics

\- Crystal City - AWS

\- New York City - Amazon services for advertising, publishing, media

I would bet Seattle sees those roles slowly pull towards their respective HQs.
It's already happening with advertising and NYC as far as I can tell from
their job listings.

And if in the future, for some reason, Amazon is required to break up, this
would make it a little less messy.

------
adamqureshi
I grew up in QUEENS. Well LIC is a melting pot. The amazon workers can live in
sunnyside queens or greenpoint brooklyn. I think with AMAZON coming to LIC
that whole area is gonna light up. Also lets not forget Roosevelt Island is
right there. You'll see new development in Roosvelt island. Buildings have
been going up in LIC for the last 10 years. You have Jackson Hights.
Sunnyside, greenpoint, also the boogie down bronx has places to live,. so the
transit system is gonna be PACKED. the train is always late in NYC / Queens.
LIRR will also see increased traffic from Jamaica to hunters point or
woodside. You can get LIRR from Forrest hills or key Gardens. This will allow
for new eating places to open and other small business will pop up to meet the
needs of the 25k people they plan to hire. I will be looking for business
opportunities my self! :-)

------
taohansen
Why didn’t anyone ask the residents if they wanted a megacorporation to move
into their neighborhoods? Amazon insisted on absolute secrecy moving forward
and elected officials went right along with it.

Queens residents are outraged by this news. No one asked them. How is this
democracy at work?

------
avryhof
That's right, Andy. Change your name now. Amazon Cuomo

------
LiterallyDoge
Is there really any good reason to hate Amazon for this? It sounds like they
gave an offer, and the offer was good, so people wanted it. I like freedom.
This sounds like freedom. Is it not?

------
rb808
> Hiring at both the new headquarters will begin in 2019.

Do they have buildings leased? I presumed they were going to build. How can
they start hiring already?

~~~
SeanBoocock
Part of the rumors for the Arlington location included Amazon leasing older
offices for the initial group of employees as they built out space:
[https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/amazon-in-advanced-
talk...](https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/amazon-in-advanced-talks-about-
putting-hq2-in-northern-virginia-those-close-to-process-
say/2018/11/02/9be831d6-d7c0-11e8-aeb7-ddcad4a0a54e_story.html?utm_term=.aa3f196126b3)

------
notJim
Hard to escape the conclusion that this whole thing was just a way to grab tax
cuts for places where Amazon already has a presence.

------
drfuchs
Since each city is only receiving half the benefit they thought they were
bidding on, presumably they’ll each get to cut their bids in half — the
subsidies, tax abatements, infrastructure spending promises, etc.? But I
haven’t seen any notice of this in the news coverage. [rerun]

------
Simulacra
Ahhhh crap. Here goes housing prices... We were really hoping to buy something
next year :(

------
damnson
I haven't read anyone citing Google also setting up shop in NYC. This might be
way off but could Amazon and Google be competing for political influence in
NYC?

------
throwaway2048
This entire competition was an obvious sham to try to equivocate really
desperate cities willing to give basically anything to have a major tech
company headquarters, to the inevitable choice amazon was going to make of
california or the coastal northeast, so they could extract maximum
concessions.

Its disgusting this worked as well as it did, $48k/job in tax concessions from
NYC and $22k/job from VA, expect to see a lot more of this in the future.
Hopefully governments wake up and realize its a race to the bottom that
advantages megacorps to such a point that having them is barely worth it,
while at the same time hurting local businesses.

EDIT: the tax deductions are one time, not per year, i mixed that up.

~~~
differentView
What do you mean by "hurting local businesses"? Wouldn't more highly paid
workers in the area be good for local businesses?

~~~
TuringNYC
I was similarly confused by this...its not like its a Walmart superstore
undurcutting the local mom-n-pop shop.

That said, perhaps the fear is "over-cutting" \-- that HQ2 slurps up top
talent from local tech businesses and overbids salaries. I can totally see
that happening, especially with the only-handful of truly high-tech businesses
in the Northern Virginia community. This is a bad thing short term and a good
thing long term.

~~~
slededit
They are quite literally the WalMart of the web. Although that sort of damage
has already been done.

------
ryanwaggoner
Wow, the gatekeepers in /r/nashville are probably apoplectic.

------
Rainymood
Who bended over the furthest for their new corporate overlords?

------
baseballMan
Knew that they wouldn't pick Toronto - Trump would have blown a gasket

~~~
bepotts
Toronto wasn't chosen because Toronto wasn't competitive. People that live in
Toronto talk about how they're underpaid and how their tech sector pales in
comparison to major US cities. Even many Waterloo CS graduates have a "US or
bust" type mentality because of the labor market disparities.

Amazon would be foolish to choose a location in Canada due to a their
healthcare system and immigration situation. Healthcare isn't that big a deal
to a company like Amazon and regardless of the current administration,
Americans have never been more supportive of immigration.

Canadians were naive to think they were competitive for an Amazon, and they're
wrong if they think Amazon would have chosen them if they weren't so concerned
about blowback.

Sometimes, America being welcoming to big businesses has its advantages.

