
Zillow forces McMansion Hell to delete posts - CariadKeigher
http://www.mcmansionhell.com/post/162288302421/going-offline-for-a-while
======
uses
I totally understand the whole "McMansions are bad architecture" thing...

However, something about it really bothers me. There was an episode of 99%
Invisible where the guest was talking about their McMansions blog and how it
makes fun of these Horrid dwellings. The whole thing stank of classist
elitism. The Wrong Type of people were getting the chance to design and build
large houses, and of course they're applying their Bad Taste that's neither
Genuine nor Authentic. They don't know about the traditions of Fine
Architecture so of course they were doing it all wrong...how embarrassing for
them!

Edit: It sounds like a lot of the way I interpreted this could come from my
background as someone who's transitioned from lower working class to solidly
middle class, and so I'm applying that defensively even though (thank God!) I
don't live in an Embarassing McMansion. In fact I'm now considering the blog
as more of an educational campaign where an expert in the field is railing
against problematic and widespread trends in that field. It has less to do
with transitions between class and more to do with the decline of an important
field of engineering and design as something that people value. I think the
word McMansions itself is a bit of a disservice to the purpose of the blog,
with its "slobs vs snobs" / Beverly Hillbillies connotations.

~~~
rayiner
I grew up in Northern Virginia among these McMansions, and frankly I don't buy
the elitism angle. These folks have a lot of money (top 5% at least, if not
even top 1%) and are among the best educated in the country. And these aren't
dwellings driven by the need for functionality. It's not like people here have
big families they need to house (empty nesters can afford them more readily
than people with families!). They're designed, instead, to be conspicuous
consumption. If you can't ridicule them for lacking taste you're basically
saying that taste doesn't exist and everything is always subjective.

~~~
Declanomous
Additionally, McMansions are often not very functional. As much as I would
appreciate more space, I've been in enough McMansions to appreciate how
important a well-built and well-designed house is. Completely ignoring scale
doesn't just make McMansions aesthetically unpleasant, it them uncomfortable
or completely unsuitable for most of the things we use a house for as well.

If you spend any time in a McMansion, you will start to notice little things
that just feel wrong. The fridge will be placed on the complete opposite side
of the room from the island with the stove in it. Closets will be placed in
the middle of a wall, creating a room where the bed cannot be placed against
any walls. Rooms will be designed without any sense of a traffic pattern, and
you'll find that it's impossible to place a couch in your den because it's
basically a 30 foot wide hallway because of where the doors are. The
dishwasher will block access to the sink when open.

A lot of these things are probably unnoticeable to the owners because of their
lifestyle. I know friends whose parents have literally never used a single pot
or pan that they own.

Around me McMansions seem to stay on the market forever compared to houses of
a similar price. A ton were built where I grew up in the 2002-2007 time frame,
and nobody wants to live in them. They neglect literally everything that makes
a house a home for the sake of having as much space as possible. I would be
surprised if the majority of them make it 50 years without being torn down.

~~~
ChuckMcM
This is where I fall on the spectrum. I can understand someone wanting their
house to evoke some notion of grandeur but really if it isn't functional the
effort feels wasted to me.

That said, I have always felt ridiculing other people's taste to be fairly
mean. And while there are/were some solid points in the blog about design and
things that 'look right' and things that 'look wrong' it could often come
across fairly harshly. And even if you disclaim that with "I'm talking about
the house, not you." since the owner likes the house enough to own it and not
change it, it really is kind of about them too.

~~~
toufka
All the more reason the blog is so useful. I'd hate to think with all the
modern technology around us that the house I live in 'just doesn't feel right'
because it was not built employing the past dozen millennia-worth of
architectural knowledge at our social disposal. Just because _I_ am not an
architect doesn't mean I want to be swindled into an unknowingly unpleasant
home. Just because I'm not an architect of CPUs doesn't mean I'd be willing to
have a computer run poorly given my investment in a new computer - even if I
like the processor's name and it has lots of gigahertzes.

No one finds the tech reviewer 'mean' for saying the processor is slower at
particular benchmarks according to our present technological measure. Why is
this so different - _if_ in fact what is being put to the measure is a human
technology and not simply taste. And even then, many 'tasteful' architectural
features only exist because of some function - and missing that function they
are actually _only_ taste.

~~~
mschaef
> Why is this so different

Benchmarks are at least attempting to be objective.

Also, there's a difference between mocking a company's product and mocking a
house that is 1) an individual's home 2) their largest investment and 3) is
likely, these days, to represent a significant financial liability.

I don't like McMansions much myself, but I can absolutely sympathize with
people that want an affordable way to get more space for their family, etc.
(Or people that have been sucked by the hedonic treadmill into a vortex of
debt, high utility payments, etc.) They're probably suffering enough already.

~~~
prklmn
> an affordable way to get more space for their family

Did you see the asking prices before the content was taken down? I don't
remember any of the houses being affordable in any regard

> vortex of debt

It takes a special person to sympathize with someone living so far beyond
their means that they take a $1 million (my average price estimate from the
website) mortgage that they can't actually afford

~~~
mschaef
> It takes a special person to sympathize with someone living so far beyond
> their means that they take a $1 million (my average price estimate from the
> website) mortgage that they can't actually afford

They'll suffer enough without help. The world is difficult enough without
pushing people down because it's funny or a way to 'improve the quality of
architecture' or whatever.

------
Amorymeltzer
The Washington Post ran an article/video combo today[1] about Kate and
McMansion Hell, and while Kate herself didn't mention Zillow the article
itself did a few times. I imagine this is what prompted the legal threat. It's
an entertaining video if you have five minutes.

Also of note: Kate's twitter posts from this morning also indicate she has
received threatening emails following the video[2], which is sadly not
surprising.

1:
[https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2017/06/26/the-u...](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2017/06/26/the-
ultimate-symbol-of-the-pre-recession-boom-is-back)

2:
[https://twitter.com/mcmansionhell/status/879422526698532865](https://twitter.com/mcmansionhell/status/879422526698532865)

~~~
curiousgal
I honestly could not finish that video. She is as pretentious as the home
owners she criticizes.

~~~
KaiserPro
I don't see any pretence, I really don't.

~~~
lgas
You don't see any pretentiousness in driving around judging a bunch of people
on their houses and just ragging on how terrible they are? Really? You might
want to look harder.

~~~
chiph
It'd be pretentious to just arbitrarily say "Those houses are ugly". But she
says "Those houses are ugly, and _this is why_ ". While I don't agree with her
opinion on all the houses she features, but the vast majority -- yeah, they're
pretty bad, and for the reasons she states.

* Odd proportions and asymmetry. * Strange roof lines (the "nub" \- it's like a Mansard that didn't know when to stop). * Bizarre bump-outs, because the exterior was wrapped around an interior designed to have crazily large rooms. * Columns that hold up nothing. * And my personal favorite - shutters that don't have a prayer of covering the window when closed. Except they can't close, because they're glued and/or screwed to the wall and have no hinges.

~~~
mrep
But that still comes down to personal subjective taste and she thinks hers is
better than the people who bought/designed the home.

~~~
ericd
Are you saying that people shouldn't be allowed to criticize anything because
it's all subjective and down to personal taste?

~~~
mrep
No, but I don't like it when people do in a very public manner as a way to
pressure people to conform.

How would you feel about a blog that openly criticizes workplace clothing (I
bring this up as lots of people in my office wear things like toe shoes and
some males even where quilts)?

I try and be accepting of other people's personal tastes and don't want to
enforce through rules/laws/social pressure some common clothing standard that
people have to conform to. Same goes for houses in that I don't like publicly
mocking them for how they look in order to socially pressure people to build
their houses so that they conform to some standard.

*edit: obviously this shouldn't be taken to the extreme as houses do emit externalities on those that surround them which can decrease the value of the surrounding houses. Thus, I think some conformity in a town by town basis is good. However, I find blogs like this and some home owners associations (HOA) to be ridiculous with how far they try and enforce their rules and opinions on how homes/town should look.

~~~
ericd
I don't think it's meant to pressure the owners to confirm. The owners have a
relatively small likelihood of ever realizing that their home is on the blog.
I think it's to try to diminish the trend, and get builders to focus more on
making smaller, higher quality houses that consider the climate in which
they're built. Just my guess, though.

------
jasode
IANAL but we can do some harmless armchair lawyering...

The 4 Factors of "fair use"[1]:

 _> 1\. the purpose and character of your use._

Criticism, critique.

 _> 2\. the nature of the copyrighted work._

Published photos used in website blog without ads. Also, the photos were not
put into a compilation book to be sold at Amazon. However, Kate Wagner does
say in twitter that _" this blog is my entire livelihood"_ so it seems that
some commercial activity is happening.

 _> 3\. the amount and substantiality of the portion taken_

Kate Wagner took a tiny percentage in proportion to Zillow's entire photo
database. If the proportion measurement is a particular photographer's
portfolio, she may have taken most or 100%.

 _> 4\. the effect of the use upon the potential market._

Does KW's usage of the photos cause economic harm to the photographers of real
estate? Do the McHell photos reduce the value of photographers' other photos
in their portfolio?

Doesn't seem so but there may be some additional cause & effect that damages
photographers' works.

Seems like (3) and (4) would be Zillow's strongest arguments.

[1]
[https://www.google.com/search?q=4+factors+of+fair+use](https://www.google.com/search?q=4+factors+of+fair+use)

~~~
DanBC
They're claiming ToS violation.

~~~
jasode
I looked at the Four Factors Fair Use instead of Terms of Service because the
twitter image of the Zillow cease & desist letter[1] mentioned it in their
arguments.

Also, one can use Zillow without ever clicking "I Agree" to a ToS so I'm not
sure if that's even contractually binding or has been tested in court.

[1]
[https://twitter.com/mcmansionhell/status/879429709251137537](https://twitter.com/mcmansionhell/status/879429709251137537)

~~~
twblalock
It is also possible that the courts would rule that Zillow's particular terms
of service are unenforceable, without answering the broader question about the
enforceability of terms of service in general. That happened to Zappos in
2013.

------
strictnein
Funny. One of the homes they showed is in my area, and I had driven by it
recently (since we're thinking about moving). And they're definitely right.
It's a weird mix of horribleness. Especially the kitchen with its "update",
aka let's throw in a couple of premium appliances and $2k worth of marble and
call it a day.

[http://www.mcmansionhell.com/post/162143229176/50-states-
of-...](http://www.mcmansionhell.com/post/162143229176/50-states-of-mcmansion-
hell-hennepin-county)

[https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/19735-Chartwell-Hl-
Excels...](https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/19735-Chartwell-Hl-Excelsior-
MN-55331/2024299_zpid/)

~~~
buckbova
> Especially the kitchen with its "update"

Wow. I really expected you were exaggerating but it really is terrible.
There's not much square footage why the hell didn't they put in new cabinets
at least?

~~~
Neeek
Didn't the writer say this was one of the only kitchens shown on the blog that
she likes? That doesn't mean you have to agree of course, I Just don't really
know what makes a good kitchen :)

------
matttproud
McMansion Hell is exactly the shock therapy the United States needs. Someone
lend this blogger a hand!

~~~
atonse
Never heard of it before now. :( I bet it was enlightening.

~~~
JusticeJuice
It was absolutely hilarious, and informative.

He would show photos from listings of excessively large, poorly made mansions
(or 'McMansions'). He'd point out all the design flaws, and architectural
mistakes, then laugh at the excessive price tag.

Apart from the humour, it was super interesting. If I look at a picture of a
house, there's no way I can notice water damage, mis-matched windows, or just
shitty door placement.

I guess Zwillo is salty as it could lead to lower valuations.

[There's still a post up on 99% if you want to take a
geez]([http://99percentinvisible.org/episode/mcmansion-hell-
devil-d...](http://99percentinvisible.org/episode/mcmansion-hell-devil-
details/))

~~~
atom_enger
Just wanted to point out that He is a She.

[https://twitter.com/mcmansionhell](https://twitter.com/mcmansionhell)

Keep up the good fight, Kate. You've taught me how to appreciate good (and
bad! ) architecture. Also I question the construction of houses now which is
something I've never done before, so thank you.

~~~
JusticeJuice
Ah crap. Sorry Kate, I shouldn't have presumed. Internalised sexism got me.

------
imkevinxu
On what grounds can they sue? Isn't this pure free speech?

It looks like the only references to Zillow ever are citations that the photos
come from their website
[http://www.mcmansionhell.com/search/zillow](http://www.mcmansionhell.com/search/zillow)

~~~
JohnTHaller
Likely copyright over the photographs. Realistically, it's fair use since it's
transformative and used for critique. Unfortunately, fair use laws only apply
in the US if you have lots of lawyer money, so they don't really matter for
normal folks.

~~~
acomjean
I'm curious how just using a photo makes it "transformative". Those photos
look straight up taken from one site and used on the next.

(I ask as someones who's flickr photos ended up on the front page of a local
paper... and was mildly annoyed, but it was promoting an event I work on.. had
they just asked....)

News organizations and documentaries pay lots of money to clear and use old
stock news photos.

I do enjoy the critique though...

~~~
Amorymeltzer
For one, she frequently marks up the photos with arrows and text, most of
which is uniquely humorous while also being educational. No one would mistake
her images for a promotional piece, or anything other than satire, comedy, and
education.

------
ben174
For those who had never heard of it before, the Google cached copy is still
up:

[http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:zFONMls...](http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:zFONMlsRjcgJ:www.mcmansionhell.com/+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us)

~~~
snug
Website is still up.
[http://www.mcmansionhell.com/](http://www.mcmansionhell.com/)

~~~
ben174
Ah, I believe the content was removed when I first clicked. Looks like it's
back now.

~~~
SomeCallMeTim
A few minutes ago it looked like the content had been deleted. Right now I
tried twice; first time I got a Tumblr error page, the second time I got a
redirect to an "Enter Password" field on a Tumblr blog page.

I'm going to suggest that the owner is migrating the domain to point at a
Tumblr page. Right Now. Maybe his servers were having trouble with the
increased interest?

~~~
sp332
It was hosted on Tumblr all along. She says it's only down temporarily.
[https://twitter.com/mcmansionhell/status/879437570471587844](https://twitter.com/mcmansionhell/status/879437570471587844)

------
maaarghk
If you're looking to read the article you can go to
[http://mcmansionhell.tumblr.com/](http://mcmansionhell.tumblr.com/) \- it has
been unlinked from the domain name.

------
noobilicious
Welp, you guys know what to do.

[http://archive.is/](http://archive.is/)

[https://web.archive.org/](https://web.archive.org/)

[https://www.webcitation.org/archive](https://www.webcitation.org/archive)

Edit: the blog just disappeared for me. I managed to archive the last 13 pages
of it in archive.is.

~~~
CaptSpify
ipfs link:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14640115](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14640115)

------
xer0x
Zillow may be being feeling pressure to enforce photograph copyright because
of this lawsuit: [http://realtormag.realtor.org/daily-
news/2017/02/13/zillow-o...](http://realtormag.realtor.org/daily-
news/2017/02/13/zillow-ordered-pay-83m-in-copyright-case)

~~~
pbhjpbhj
That's hilarious. Zillow used someone else's images without consent to sell
remodelling programs and thought that the subsequent lawsuit against them was
"without merit" (quoting above link).

Bonus points to McMansionHell if they use only quotes from Zillow in their
defence!

Some relevant info:

* [https://www.scribd.com/document/339052523/VHT-v-Zillow](https://www.scribd.com/document/339052523/VHT-v-Zillow) \- jury verdict

* [https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1617640/000119312517...](https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1617640/000119312517038261/d315448d8k.htm) \- notice to SEC that Zillow intends to appeal

* [https://www.vedderprice.com/takeaways-from-vht-v-zillow-for-...](https://www.vedderprice.com/takeaways-from-vht-v-zillow-for-website-owners) \- "Takeaways From VHT V. Zillow For Website Owners"

------
bobbybob232
She might want to double check with Zillow. The Cease and Desist is signed
'Christopher Poole', which happens to be the real name of Moot of 4chan fame?

~~~
ihuman
There is a Christopher Poole on Linkedin that is Corporate Counsel at Zillow
Group. I'm not going to post a link here because it might be considered
doxxing, but that person is real.

~~~
sergiotapia
That's quite the unfortunate name.

------
riffic
[https://www.eff.org/pages/legal-assistance](https://www.eff.org/pages/legal-
assistance)

------
imroot
I would expect nothing short of this from Zillow.

I'm also not really certain that Zillow has the copyright: those are usually
property of the RETS/MLS of that specific area, if not the agent taking the
pictures.

~~~
stickfigure
I came here to ask this question. I've never seen a Zillow ad that wasn't just
a copy of the MLS listing (usually a month out-of-date, at that). The same
pictures show up on realtor.com, redfin.com, and about 50 other sites.

If you can get the byte-for-byte identical image from a different website, how
does Zillow exercise any control here? If she just stops using Zillow, isn't
she protected?

~~~
imroot
Zillow and other Real Estate sites have the same problem: Syncing Real Estate
data is hard due to fragmentation (each area has its own MLS with its own
rules), clashing data standards, and legal requirements (For example, I
believe that Louisiana has a law that requires Realtors use the phrase, "A
Licensed Louisiana Realtor" under their name in all marketing materials.) If
you're displaying that data, the onus is on you to ensure that you are showing
the correct data.

You'd have some MLS'es that required their logo to be on the bottom right,
some that required them to be on the bottom left, and 95% of the time, your
data feed didn't even contain the logos: you'd have to double check and make
sure that you were in compliance (and they did check and would cut you off if
you were not in check).

But, to answer your question: There's nothing that prevents her from going
straight to the MLS or the listing agent's website to grab her source photos:
zillow would have no claim at this point in time.

------
vermontdevil
Someone should reach out to Popehat for a PSA to see if there are lawyers in
Minnesota willing to consult.

------
codingdave
I don't know the full context of what is going on legally, but I do know that
being threatened is not the same thing as getting sued. And getting sued is
not the same thing as them having a case. And them having a case is not the
same thing as you not having a defense.

Lawyers exist for a reason. Don't let other lawyers bully you with threats.
Get your own lawyer to look into things. Back down if it makes sense.
Sometimes it does. But don't back down just because you get threatened.

~~~
kadavero
Do you also know that even talking to a lawyer when threatened costs money?
And that Zillow is likely to have way more money to spend on lawyers than a
blog?

~~~
codingdave
Attitudes like that are exactly what attorneys count on to bully the little
guys. Many attorneys will give free consultations.

Also, keep in mind that I'm not specifically talking about Zillow right now...
I'm saying that you shouldn't let yourself get bullied. Running scared from a
letter is just a bad practice.

------
cookiecaper
IANAL.

We give large companies far too much lenience to bully in this country.

The legal system is fundamentally broken in this type of matchup, a small
player pitted against a public company with billions of dollars floating
around. Her only hope to win the fight is to be picked up by a nonprofit like
the EFF, but my experience is that they're very restrained about where they'll
lend assistance (that is, they're useless to most people).

Her only hope to get through the next five years without having her life
substantially wrecked by a totally unnecessary lawsuit (which she will likely
lose if it goes to court) is to comply with the C&D and hope that Zillow calls
off the dogs.

Her brief plea for help at the end of this post could be construed as an
attempt to conspire to continue to harm Zillow while avoiding legal
accountability for doing so, and Zillow's attorneys will no doubt seize upon
that construction to make things as bad for her as possible.

The thing to understand is that once lawyers are contacted, the time for
friendly discussion or rational pleading is over. The lawyer is paid to get
the court to believe that their client is being seriously harmed so that they
are granted maximal damages. Conciliatory tones and forgone possibilities to
highlight damage would only hurt Zillow in an eventual court case, so the
lawyers must seize upon such communications aggressively. Their sole job is to
make the case that Zillow is being victimized as credible as possible, which
means making the defendant look as bad as possible.

We _seriously_ need to get the legal system under control. An individual is
lucky if they can afford 10 hours of time from a competent attorney. Large
companies intentionally prolong their cases to try and starve less-wealthy
opponents out by exhausting their legal funds. I am familiar with small
companies who were forced to settle, even after spending $3M on legal
services.

It takes up to a decade and millions of dollars to even have such a case seen
through in the US.

IANAL.

Source: I've had a giant law firm sicked on me by a Fortune 100. I complied
with their C&D (by shutting down my business) and they went away.

~~~
twblalock
> Her only hope to get through the next five years without having her life
> substantially wrecked by a totally unnecessary lawsuit (which she will
> likely lose if it goes to court) is to comply with the C&D and hope that
> Zillow calls off the dogs.

If she would likely lose in court, then Zillow has a legitimate case against
her and is doing her a favor by sending a cease and desist instead of going
straight to court and taking her money. I don't see why you would feel sorry
for someone in that situation.

I feel sorry for her, but that's because I don't think she would lose in
court.

~~~
cookiecaper
IANAL

>If she would likely lose in court [...] I don't see why you would feel sorry
for someone in that situation.

A law's existence is not an automatic justification for its invocation.
Copyright law is pretty draconian on its own, and automatically-accepted
browsewrap/clickwrap Terms of Use generally constrict action even further,
making almost anything a breach of contract. Fair use exists, but the standard
is fairly high, and it is not really practical for a normal person to get it,
especially since each use must be considered in isolation.

Other types of intellectual property would probably also be involved here,
including an accusation of "trademark dilution", i.e., harming their mark's
value by using it improperly. I haven't seen the C&D but it probably includes
various other claims along these lines, all of which she would have to defend,
which means big $$$ even if she did win (and if attorney's fees are
_eventually_ awarded, they will cover only a tiny fraction of the overall
costs).

A large company with giant law firms seeking to punish individual authors for
failure to unpublish unflattering blog posts _should_ make you feel sorry,
even if those giant law firms are able to contrive a case that shows the
conduct was technically illegal. It's not hard to do, especially when there is
such a massive resource differential.

In the real world where we're allowed to widen our perspective beyond the
legal minutia, this is a blatant attempt to silence press that Zillow doesn't
like. The fact that it is possible for big companies to do this to people
should seriously frighten everyone.

>doing her a favor by sending a cease and desist instead of going straight to
court

A C&D is part of the process. It's not _mandatory_ , but my non-lawyer
understanding is that it looks bad to file a suit in this type of case without
first asking the defendant to cease and desist (that is, issuing a formal
C&D).

Lawyers don't send a C&D to be nice. They do it because the court wants to see
that the plaintiff a) sought non-legal remediation before filing a lawsuit and
b) because plaintiffs have a responsibility to mitigate ongoing losses when
they are able to do so.

The job of the lawyers is to maximize outcomes in favor of their clients, and
that means crossing the ts and dotting the is. Failing to send a C&D leaves an
opening for the defendant to try to soften your damage claim, pointing out
that you did not attempt to mitigate the damage.

If Zillow _actually had_ been damaged by this operation, they would continue
the lawsuit after the would-be defendant ceased and desisted and try to
recover the damages they suffered. Since this is just a tactic to pressure the
other party into unpublishing their content via the legal strongarm, money
won't be wasted on a lawsuit after the publisher has been bullied into
submission.

IANAL

------
SnowingXIV
So this made things even more difficult for me. I'm looking to buy a new house
for around 300-500K. And I'd hate for it to be one of these, I don't need it
to be some unique hipster snowflake because I need it to be marketable and
sell well in the Midwest so most families are buying pretty standard craftsman
style houses. Not the Silicon Valley entire house is a massive window. Main
concern is getting money back or more and not doing some massive risk which is
what this blog might be advocating.

~~~
triangleman
You'll be fine.

------
slaymaker1907
I really don't understand how this doesn't fall under fair use. The images are
quite clearly being used for criticism and satire which is protected speech.

Is this just a case of the power of the almighty $$$ or is there something I'm
missing?

------
aezell
Seems like a subscription to a national MLS service would allow her access to
all the same images with none of the copyright claims Zillow wants to make.

~~~
ceejayoz
I doubt an MLS service would permit a user whose intent is to mock some of the
listings. She'd have to become a real estate broker, too.

~~~
lightedman
Looking at MLS.com's ToS/ToU, nothing in there mentions photographic copyright
at all.

------
pascalxus
This site seems like Class elitism and smells of Class warfare. It seems quite
bitter too.

A few of her architectural points are correct: a missing column here or there,
perhaps some matching windows. But, most of her commentary is reaching and
snarky. She might have fared much better if she put a positive spin on it and
told people how to improve there architecture rather than picking apart every
minor flaw, to which otherwise would be a great mcMansion.

I found most of the houses and pictures shown on there quite good looking. I
would be really lucky to live in anything posted on there. I don't think she's
seen bad looking architecture yet. Obviously, she's never looked at housing in
CA.

And criticizing a house for having too small a lot - that's just really low.
That's like criticizing a poor kid for not having any money. People don't get
to chose the cost of land in their area. It's decided upon by voters and
government. If she has a problem with lot sizes, she ought to blame voters not
the house.

------
jasallen
I like both mcmansionhell.com AND my mcMansion. Weirdly, she calls out fake
shutters that won't actually close over the windows, but my 1954 built, 1300sq
ft previous house had those as well!

~~~
mi100hael
I think a large part of the problem with fake shutters is that they are often
too small and wouldn't fully cover the window if they were functional, so they
end up looking awkward and out-of-balance

------
pwthornton
I may be mistaken, but doesn't Zillow itself scrape a lot of its info,
including photos?

~~~
softawre
They didn't do that, I just recently sold a home, and I had to dual-upload my
pics to Zillow (where other sites like Redfin picked them up from Mibor)

------
corpMaverick
I really enjoy using Zillow. But this is wrong. Not happy.

~~~
strictnein
Give Redfin a shot, if you're just into browsing homes for sale. Better search
and UI, in my opinion.

~~~
tcfunk
Never heard of this before, thanks for sharing!

~~~
stickfigure
More importantly, Redfin's data is actually current.

I'm trying to buy property. Back when I was using Zillow, I missed out on a
couple because literally the _day I found out about them_ was the closing day
of offers. WTF? Redfin updates much faster. I still get emails from Zillow,
often with listing changes that Redfin emailed me several weeks prior.

Oh, and don't get me started on Zillow's incredibly shitty data. Their job is
to clean the data. A trivial effort would fix the endless 6,000-acre
properties for $350k...

~~~
strictnein
This will vary by state, but in MN a realtor can setup an email notification
that will send you a message as soon as a property matching your criteria is
listed. So I get the Redfin notifications, but I've typically already known
about the property for 6-12 hours.

~~~
SOLAR_FIELDS
I think this system is somewhat ubiquitous, using the database(s) colloquially
known as MLS databases. The original idea was helpful in the pre-internet age
because it encouraged fee sharing between realtors ("You help me sell my
houses, and I will help you sell yours"). But in today's information age, it
has unfortunately become a bit of a protectionist racket as the need for
realtors to help you find houses diminishes, because to get access to the data
and set it up for consumers you have to (in Texas at least) be a licensed real
estate agent. You cannot simply pay a fee to access the listings.

National Association of Realtors (NAR) who handles the MLS listings under a
system known as Internet Data Exchange (IDX) was actually involved in a
lawsuit from the DOJ several years ago about their protectionist policies.
They were preventing online-only brokers such as Redfin from sharing MLS
listings in favor of traditional brick and mortar brokerages.

It will be quite interesting to see how the field of real estate evolves. I'd
like to see it shift more toward the Redfin model, where the consumer has the
power to look at whatever houses they want and the realtor is simply there to
act as a fiduciary and facilitate the transaction between buyer and seller. It
certainly seems to help avoid conflicts of interest in that case.

------
tnt128
To be fair, zillow itself was sued(and lost) recently for its user base
uploading images they have no copyright to. I know the case is different here,
but it's very likely Zillow is just being overly cautious here.

------
covercash
I wonder if she could use this momentum to crowdsource an initiative to send
locals out to retake the photos for her...

------
mavhc
Large houses are terrible for humans, using more energy, taking up more space,
therefore causing more travel, more car usage. I'm impressive by the
millionaire whose house is small and efficient.

------
droithomme
mcmansionhell's use is clearly fair use as it falls under both the criticism
and parody exceptions. This might be why the Zillow SLAPP letter mainly
focuses on supposed TOS violations. Whether unsigned web site TOS off on a
page most visitors never see are enforceable at all is highly questionable.

~~~
amyjess
But you can also make the argument that it's only fair use if you're using the
photos to criticize and parody _Zillow_ or the services they provide. She's
not criticizing Zillow or its services but rather the subjects of the
photographs.

~~~
pbhjpbhj
That's an interesting construction of the Fair Use terms that to me, IANAL,
seems entirely wrong; but interesting.

Like you could stop someone using your image in a parody because you took the
picture of your tie and they instead parodied your suit wearing. Doesn't work,
the image stands by itself, the supposed purpose of the image is irrelevant to
the copyright ... or am I wrong?

If I take a picture from Zillow's site and use it to teach a class about poor
framing (ie photography technique) then the exception for educational use
still stands.

~~~
droithomme
Yeah I do agree. However amyjess reasonably brings up an important aspect of
this case. SCOTUS has distinguished between satire and parody. If this goes to
court it is likely Zillow will claim this is satire and not parody since
parody claims of copyright exception have a long history of vigorous
acceptance. However this all relies on an interpretation that only
photographic composition and metaissues are acceptable criticism targets and
the actual subject of the photo is somehow not related to the content. That is
a novel argument and unlikely to prevail should this be adjudicated.

------
hesdeadjim
I swear, if I were part of the three comma club I would have a very well-
funded non-profit legal firm that would jump at the opportunity to take on
cases like this.

------
tareqak
It would be nice to see what communication Zillow sent to McMansion Hell in
order to both corroborate the claim and to see what law Zillow is invoking
that Zillow would use in a potential lawsuit [0].

[0]
[https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/corroborate](https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/corroborate)

~~~
ceejayoz
She has posted the letter:
[https://twitter.com/mcmansionhell/status/879429709251137537](https://twitter.com/mcmansionhell/status/879429709251137537)

Among other things, it claims the content is not fair use material, and
threatens with the CFAA.

~~~
wyldfire
The real teeth of the CFAA are from federal prosecutors, but it does allow for
civil actions to get damages/injunctive relief.

------
dredmorbius
This brings to mind Nina Paley's "Copyright is Brain Damage":

[https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=XO9FKQAxWZc](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=XO9FKQAxWZc)

Paley is in the process of creating an epic animated story, using music
appropriated with out rights, as a protest piece against copyright.

She addresses the question somewhat at her blog:
[http://blog.ninapaley.com/?s=copyright+is+brain+damage&submi...](http://blog.ninapaley.com/?s=copyright+is+brain+damage&submit.x=0&submit.y=0&submit=Search)

If you're looking for a transcript, I'm not aware of one, though Techdirt
addresses some of the points raised:

[https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20151022/23582332603/nina-...](https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20151022/23582332603/nina-
paley-argues-why-copyright-is-brain-damage.shtml)

------
k5hp
Mirror:
[http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:AXKs99g...](http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:AXKs99gQJSsJ:www.mcmansionhell.com/post/162288302421/going-
offline-for-a-while+)

------
archon810
[https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20170626/14563337675/zillo...](https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20170626/14563337675/zillow-
sends-totally-bullshit-legal-threat-to-mcmansionhell.shtml)

------
francisofascii
Here is a podcast she did in 2016 with James Howard Kunstler.
[http://kunstler.com/podcast/chatting-kate-wagner-
mcmansion-h...](http://kunstler.com/podcast/chatting-kate-wagner-mcmansion-
hell-dot-com/)

------
forgotpwtomain
Website administrators: Please do not disable everything _except_ google bot
in your robots.txt [0][1] - this is a terrible practice making our internet
worse.

[0]
[https://web.archive.org/web/*/http://www.mcmansionhell.com/p...](https://web.archive.org/web/*/http://www.mcmansionhell.com/post/162288302421/going-
offline-for-a-while)

[1]
[https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:AXKs99...](https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:AXKs99gQJSsJ:www.mcmansionhell.com/post/162288302421/going-
offline-for-a-while+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk)

------
woodruffw
This is a real shame. McMansion Hell was one of my favorite sites, and one of
the few that I would repeatedly check for updates.

IANAL, but her case seems cut-and-dry by fair use standards. I hope that she
fights it and seeks the help of her (very appreciative) readers in fighting
it.

------
Analemma_
I kinda figured this was coming sooner or later. McMansion Hell is using
unquestionably copyrighted photos, but claims that they fall under Fair Use. I
_think_ that's true (but IANAL), but fair use is an affirmative defense that
has to hold up in court.

~~~
smhenderson
And just because he's right doesn't mean court cases aren't expensive. I hope
he either gets the attention he needs to raise some funds or gets noticed by
someone willing to help him pro bono.

It's a good concept for a site. On it's surface it looks down right like
community service. It's a bit snarky here and there but, man, some of those
houses invite that kind of criticism. I don't see him selling anything, just a
plug at the bottom about an article he wrote elsewhere.

Maybe he should switch from using Zillow's copyrighted pictures and ask
readers to send in pics from their neighborhoods. Perhaps ask people to please
assign copyright to him if they do. If people know he's not making money off
it and just sharing info/thoughts on ugly housing I bet people would
contribute.

~~~
rkho
She* :)

[https://twitter.com/mcmansionhell](https://twitter.com/mcmansionhell)

~~~
smhenderson
oops, thanks. Thought I saw a picture of a "he" on the home page. Went to
check again and it looks like the site is completely gone now, including this
article. That didn't take long!

------
glup
Wow Zillow, way to protect that valuable IP! If I were an employee there I
would wonder why legal wasn't working on something more useful.

Is there any open repository of house images (OpenStreetMaps, etc.) that could
be used as a substitute in the interim?

~~~
rmc
> _Is there any open repository of house images (OpenStreetMaps, etc.) that
> could be used as a substitute in the interim?_

OpenStreetMap doesn't store images, just map data. Mapillary and OpenStreetCam
are "crowd sourced Google Street View" alternatives, which could be used for
that.

At an extreme case, you can put a photo on flickr with the correct tags and
geo tagging information?

------
wmoser
For those of you that enjoyed the site, you might enjoy this one as well. It
was the first thing I thought of when reading the description of the McMansion
Hell website:

[http://blog.buildllc.com/2010/04/couch-cushion-
architecture-...](http://blog.buildllc.com/2010/04/couch-cushion-architecture-
a-critical-analysis/)

------
nadim
Switch all Zillow pics to Google Streetview. I doubt they will sue because
Google doesn't care if you criticize random houses that they aren't selling.
TOS:
[https://www.google.com/permissions/geoguidelines.html#street...](https://www.google.com/permissions/geoguidelines.html#streetview)

~~~
cratermoon
Nah, her blog includes interior photos as well. Streetview won't help with
that.

------
afinlayson
Loser pays laws would help this kind of bullying.

~~~
supergirl
wouldn't it make even more problematic? you risk not only lawyer fees but a
fine too? maybe if the fine was % of assets, so the corporation risks 10% of
assets if they lose, but that will never happen.

~~~
ceejayoz
I think it'd be problematic in the grey-area cases (of which there are many).
IANAL but I wouldn't mind judges being able to inflict loser-pays in egregious
cases like this, though - where a big corporation knows they'll get their way
because it's too expensive to fight.

~~~
supergirl
the court is there to resolve disputes. why should it punish people for trying
to settle things? the fundamental problem is the law is not mathematical (if
it would be we wouldn't need lawyers) so the outcome also depends on how much
resources you put in.

~~~
ceejayoz
There's a major difference between trying to settle things in good faith and
things like
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strategic_lawsuit_against_publ...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strategic_lawsuit_against_public_participation)
suits.

------
jszymborski
Mirror of the site:
[https://web.archive.org/web/20170626201934/http://www.mcmans...](https://web.archive.org/web/20170626201934/http://www.mcmansionhell.com/)

~~~
zifnab06
It's dead, they updated their robots.txt.

I really wish archive.org wouldn't honor that.

~~~
jszymborski
especially not retroactively, didn't know they do that :(

Regardless, there's always another mirror somewhere else; nothing on the
internet dies.

[http://archive.is/GXxIc](http://archive.is/GXxIc)

------
jdelsman
Heh...
[https://web.archive.org/web/20170626201934/http://www.mcmans...](https://web.archive.org/web/20170626201934/http://www.mcmansionhell.com/)

------
khazhou
I also don't like some things online. I should probably sue.

------
dintech
What a crime. This was an always educational, usually funny blog.

------
noonespecial
1) Aren't the images used as part of a critique? Isn't that classic fair use?

2) I was under the impression nearly all of the photos on Zillow come from MLS
anyway.

------
galfarragem
This is what happens when you scratch big dogs.

As an architect, I take my hat to whistleblowing construction businesses that
profit mostly on layman's ignorance.

------
iosDrone
I'm never in favor of any speech being censored (especially fair use speech),
including in this case.

But as someone who wants to one day buy a huge McMansion in Vegas just for
personal gratification, fuck all of these self-righteous snobs.

~~~
bleepity
Except that she points out McMansions are shoddily built and won't last-- one
of her photos shows a McMansion with especially severe water damage, for
instance. Re-roofing that wackadoodle roofline is so cost-prohibitive you
might as well just burn the thing and start over. If you ever have the money
for "personal gratification", why not buy an actual mansion built with actual
quality?

~~~
iosDrone
This is kind of splitting hairs. Obviously it's not smart to build something
with shit quality that won't last.

To me, the biggest difference between a mansion and a McMansion isn't build
quality, it's size. I probably won't have the money to build a place that's
10,000 sq. feet, nor would I want to. But 3500-5000 is feasible.

------
slantedview
A status update on Twitter:

[https://twitter.com/mcmansionhell/status/879483071988367360](https://twitter.com/mcmansionhell/status/879483071988367360)

------
notadoc
The whole site appears to be missing. What happened?

------
breatheoften
How did zillow force the removal of the posts??

------
robbiemitchell
Cargo cult architecture?

------
adultSwim
Say it ain't so

------
the_cat_kittles
is there a kickstarter type platform for legal fees? id be willing to donate
some money... (im sure there is)...?

~~~
chadgeidel
She has a Patreon.

~~~
the_cat_kittles
seems like it would work better to scare off intimidation type lawsuits if we
could show a willingness to pay her legal fees. then if they fuck off, we dont
have to. there must be some kind of legal crowdfunding service like this
right?

~~~
SmellyGeekBoy
I love this concept and would definitely contribute if someone did build such
a thing (not just this case but plenty of others, too).

------
supergirl
land of the free. also, guy, why you don't just replace all photos with street
view photos of the same houses?

~~~
jokamoto
"guy" is a woman, and a substantial portion of each post critiques the
interior architectural choices, which are obviously not visible in street
view.

------
dredmorbius

        apt install dnsmasq
        echo "address=/zillow.com/0.0.0.0" >> /etc/dnsmasq.conf && /etc/init.d/dnsmasq restart

------
peacetreefrog
Never heard of McMansion Hell before, but went back and checked it out on
Google Cache and it just seems mean spirited. Why should anyone care what sort
of house people choose to build, buy or live in? Reminds me of the people that
couldn't handle an old lady's earnest Olive Garden review a few years back.

[http://www.huffingtonpost.com/ann-brenoff/olive-garden-
revie...](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/ann-brenoff/olive-garden-reviewer-is-
media-star_b_1334736.html)

~~~
jasondemeuse
>Why should anyone care what sort of house people choose to build, buy or live
in?

Maybe because that's what she is knowledgable in, and she wants to point out
bad practices in the industry she's involved in, or because they make
expensive houses with cheap products that are only built to resell as opposed
to have someone actually live there for an extended period of time?

Look, these things might not mean anything to you (or me for that matter), or
ever have a real effect on you and that's fine, but you really can't imagine
why such poor practices might annoy someone whose career is based around
knowing __not __to do these things that are so prevalent?

Do you think subreddits like /r/programminghorror are mean spirited? If
someone posted a snippet with 1000 cases in a switch statement, would you say
"Why should anyone care what sort of sort of code people choose to write or
use in production?"

I don't see how that is any different than this, or how calling out bad
practices with broad strokes is a mean thing to do.

~~~
peacetreefrog
My impression of this blog isn't it's constructive (though I suppose if you
just do the opposite of what she's ripping on it could be) but it's definitely
not calling out bad practices with broad strokes. It's calling out individual
homes (with pictures) that actual people live in presumably because that's
what they decided they liked.

I hadn't seen /r/programminghorror before either. I think if you could pretty
easily tie the code samples back to the programmer who wrote it and it was
that snarky, that yes it'd be mean spirited. And -- while I enjoy elegant code
too -- I don't think I would care what other people choose to use or write in
production, provided I didn't hire them, have to work with them, or it was bad
enough to affect the product I was using.

~~~
dionidium
" _presumably because that 's what they decided they liked_"

Not all opinions are created equal. They may have liked it, but it's this
blog's assertion that they're _wrong_. Best of all, most of us not in the
field will learn something new from the descriptions of _why_ they're wrong.

------
Overtonwindow
So I don't get it. This girl sounds really, really petty, and the 99pi episode
is probably their worst. So what if someone wants to build a huge house? How
is that harming anyone else? If I were wealthy I would totally build a
McMansion because I want it, I like it, and I would love to live in it. Who
cares?

~~~
cr0sh
I don't have any problem with someone building a huge, and subjectively "ugly"
McMansion-style house if they want. What I have a problem with is where they
usually locate these houses.

In many (not all, not most) cases, the builders locate the house in an area
completely unsuited for the property. They'll find some low-cost home in an
established neighborhood of 30-40 year-old ranch homes (for instance), then
tear that house down (or maybe they'll buy two lots next to each other!), then
build the monstrosity that towers over everything else in the neighborhood.
They'll get variances and whatnot to build nearly up to every property line
within fire-codes.

It becomes a nightmare for the rest of the property owners; usually their
homes will decrease in value as a result, due to nobody wanting to purchase or
live in their home with such a structure nearby. Of course, this may cause
them to sell their property at a loss - perhaps to another developer who puts
up another such McMansion...

There's such a thing, when you are building in an established neighborhood, to
be a good neighbor and build something that fits in (both style and size) with
the rest of the homes. Same if you modify the existing home; you don't want to
go too crazy with style or structure, because this can devalue properties
around you. It all comes down to whether you have any empathy for other
people; whether you can place yourself in their shoes and say to yourself "if
someone were doing this to a house near me, would it be a problem?"

Unfortunately, too many people that do this don't care, or can't empathise -
or if they can, again - they don't care. They just want to build, and flip it
for the cash. It's a grab, plain and simple. Rarely do the people who build
these live in them, because that would put them at the ire of their (now
ticked off) neighbors.

~~~
eropple
_> In many (not all, not most) cases, the builders locate the house in an area
completely unsuited for the property_

Externalities are, as it happens, not your problem.

This is proving to be more of a bug than a feature, huh?

------
Houshalter
I really dislike this blog. Their rules are just subjective opinions and
completely arbitrary. They don't give any arguments or reasoning to support
them. When they do the side by side comparisons with traditional architecture,
I usually prefer the McMansions. They just look cooler. I like that they
aren't perfectly symmetrical and simple.

Much of their advice could actually be harmful. E.g. reducing the number of
windows to make it fit into their desired style. Windows have been shown to be
very beneficial to mental health. E.g. hospital patients in a room with a
window recover earlier, depressed people improve a bit when they can see
trees, bright sunlight is hugely important in establishing the circadian
rhythm, etc.

Or the demands for the houses to be perfectly symmetrical and "balanced" is
very constraining. It eliminates 99% of design space. There are otherwise more
optimal designs that must be discarded because they don't meet that
constraint. A room must arbitrarily become so much bigger or smaller, or
eliminated entirely, to satisfy it.

And the same is true for all of the rules. They are all purely aesthetic
constraints.

~~~
jameskegel
"What she said is invalid because I have personal preferences"

~~~
Houshalter
That's their argument not mine. They don't talk about personal preferences.
They talk about their rules like they are objective facts, and are extremely
condescending to anyone that thinks differently. If they would admit it was
their personal aesthetic preferences, then that's fine.

