
Why We Hate Taxes, and Why Some People Want Us To - headalgorithm
https://behavioralscientist.org/why-we-hate-taxes-and-why-some-people-want-us-to/
======
gregdoesit
I live in a country that's one of the highest taxed in the world, the
Netherlands, paying up to 51.75% tax on my earnings. And I actually think it's
fair and would not lobby for lower tax rates.

It's probably because of how taxes and the government works is different in
many ways to the US:

1\. You feel it on your own wallet how your tax is spent and redistributed.
Even though I pay a large amount in tax, being a high earner, I also get
support from the government, paid monthly, for childcare and mortgage
interests. Also, the government supports programs like no-downpayment
mortgages, that are unheard of in many countries.

2\. Public services are visible and efficient. This is true from healthcare to
garbage collection and schools. Schools are actually a good example: while
daycare in amsterdam would cost around $2,000/month for a child, schools are
"free". Of course, once you paid for daycare, you know that it's not free, but
paid for from tax, and have a good idea how much goes back into it.

3\. Tax returns are ridiculously simple. They can also be done up to five
years in the past, in case you forgot to claim refunds.

4\. Thanks to how taxes are spent, there is less inequality across society.
The government invests in social housing nationwide and has strong social net
support, redistributing wealth via taxes from high earners to the low earners.
For example, the $2,000/month childcare costs: for low earners the government
pays up to 97% of this, dropping to 33% for people well off. Contrast this
with places that don't have any of this and the inequality can be seen in all
parts of life.

~~~
paulsutter
Taxes can be just as high in the US, but without the services. Top rate for
California is 50.3% (37% federal + 13.3% state), and New York City is 49.7%
(37% fed, 8.82% state 3.876% city)

The US government actually spends more per capita on
healthcare($4,197/person/year) than most countries with free excellent
healthcare (Switzerland $4178/pp/y, Canada $3074/pp/y, UK $2802/pp/y).
Netherlands govt spends barely more than the US govt at $4495/pp/y.

[https://www.visualcapitalist.com/u-s-spends-public-money-
hea...](https://www.visualcapitalist.com/u-s-spends-public-money-healthcare-
sweden-canada/)

~~~
pessimizer
I'm really baffled at the lack of understanding of marginal tax rates amongst
otherwise educated adults (assuming you're not being deliberately deceptive
here.)

> The US government actually spends more per capita on
> healthcare($4,197/person/year) than most countries with free excellent
> healthcare (Switzerland $4178/pp/y, Canada $3074/pp/y, UK $2802/pp/y).
> Netherlands govt spends barely more than the US govt at $4495/pp/y.

This is an unbelievably important thing to bring up. The US _government_
already spends enough to have fully socialized, excellent health care. The
only reason taxes have to go up for an M4A proposal is because enormous
amounts of protectionist legislation and regulatory capture make the same
services cost double in the US. If we had sane health care costs (which could
be accomplished pretty quickly by opening the local market to foreign
competition), taxes wouldn't have to go up at all.

edit: Dean Baker made a suggestion that stuck with me years ago; instead of a
public option, just allow Americans to buy into other countries' health
systems, for example, France's. They could provide services at a nice rate on
US soil, and use US payments and addition to the risk pool to subsidize their
own citizens' health care at home. Other countries would start competing with
each other for US business, and would so radically undercut local providers
that health care prices would be _vaguely economically justifiable_ in no
time.

~~~
basementcat
> _instead of a public option, just allow Americans to buy into other
> countries ' health systems, for example, France's._

One problem is if this is opt in, only the elderly and sick will want to buy
in and the foreign government would balk at the large number of high risk
signups. Young and healthy individuals who are accustomed to the freedom of
not buying insurance and just going to the emergency room will be reluctant to
pay for something that they believe they don’t want. There’s also a mismatch
between therapies permitted by the FDA, religious freedom laws, etc.

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andrewstuart
I don't hate taxes.

I like having education, roads, community services, a safety net for those
less fortunate, a strong military, infrastructure and the myriad other things
that governments (should) spend money on.

What I do hate is the obsessive hatred of taxes. No wonder governments get
into massive debt - they don't have money.

I also hate large companies avoiding and shirking tax and leaving it to people
to pay - I really hate that. Apple, Amazon etc etc all guilty of this - they
want our money, they want profit from our community, they don't want to
contribute back - at all, if they can possibly avoid it.

~~~
malandrew
> I also hate large companies avoiding and shirking tax and leaving it to
> people to pay - I really hate that. Apple, Amazon etc etc all guilty of this

The method by which most of these companies avoid paying taxes does more to
help their local and state communities than is appreciated.

It's profits that are taxed and they reduce profits by reinvesting those
profits. Reinvesting profits results in more jobs. More jobs allow those that
are employed as a result to put food on the the table for their family and a
roof over their heads. It also allows those people to pay local, state and
federal taxes and participate in those communities.

As a member of the communities where these companies operate, I'm happy that
they do what they do to reduce federal taxes because much of what would have
been federal taxes ends up in state and local coffers and increases employment
opportunities for my neighbors and friends.

~~~
andrewstuart
There's any number of words that are used to rationalise companies paying
little or no tax. I'm not interested in any of those words.

It's a fair system if corporations are paying tax contributions proportional
to their profit as reported to the stockmarkets.

Anything else is just rationalisations and excuses. Citizens pay the money -
companies should too.

~~~
blaser-waffle
Oh ho and remember -- companies ARE people now, at least with regards to
political donations.

If corps have people-ish rights then they absolutely have people-like
obligations. Instead they're getting to have their cake and eat it.

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bradstewart
I don't hate paying taxes. I hate that I have to "decide" how much I owe. I
hate the persistent, nagging feeling that I did it wrong and the IRS may come
after me a few years later.

I really wish the legislation allowing the IRS to actually tell you how much
you owe would have survived...

~~~
jobigoud
It works like this in many places. You log on the website, and all the fields
are already filled in by default based on the employer's declarations. Only if
you have had special extra income or you want to subtract expenses you have to
spend more than 10 minutes on it.

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swayvil
I hate taxes because I'm getting poor service for my dollar and I have no
choice of alternative service providers.

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pg_bot
The federal government does too many things, and does them poorly. Our
entitlement programs are broken by design, we spend an insane amount on our
military, and there are countless federal programs that fritter away taxpayer
money. The government should do more with the money we give them instead of
constantly demanding more from our citizens.

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outside1234
I don't hate taxes, I hate rich and largely old people asking for taxes to be
cut -- but wanting the same services -- such that the buck is passed on to us.

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jasonless
I think the spirit of what Syon is writing about is the root issue of taxes.
It's not about paying for education, roads or safety. Syon is addressing the
root issue of taxes in his view is about force. Why must citizens of a free
country be coerced? Thats the premise he things most struggle with. If you
want to solve for paying for education, roads or safety toss this issues into
the private sector and Syon can agree the quality of those services would go
up and the USA would be more free. So it just depends if you believe in
freedom. Some do. Some do not.

~~~
jobigoud
I often wonder about a system where a given percentage of the budget, say 10%,
would be allocated by people voting directly for it on their tax returns. So
individuals can decide that x% of their taxes should go towards education or
military or whatever.

Has this been tested anywhere, even locally?

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malandrew
> ...arranged for the checks to prominently display the funding source—“UNITED
> STATES GOVERNMENT.”

The funding source is not the United States Government. The funding source is
US taxpayers.

~~~
dctoedt
> _The funding source is not the United States Government. The funding source
> is US taxpayers._

The right wing likes to proclaim this in support of their dislike of taxes and
of government generally (at least when government is telling _them_ what they
can and can't do; it seems quite different when they control government and
get to tell _others_ what they can't do).

But if we're going to work our way backwards through the chain of funding
sources, why stop there? Seems to me that taxpayers' _employers_ could make
the same argument about being the funding source — and then the employers'
customers — and so on, stretching all the way back to the Big Bang ....

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mieses
nothing is free. there are other ways to pay for things than government and
taxes.

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golemiprague
I don't hate or love them, I see them as a necessity but I always remember
that at the end of the day taxing is taking money by force from people, so it
should be limited to whatever is deemed necessary and should be used in the
most efficient way. Therefore it is important to keep a watchful eye and be
vigilant when people want to raise it and in general to be strict on the
definitions of what is necessary.

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thstart
I would like to see where my tax $’s are going -itemized. I would like to see
where any donations for any non profits are going - itemized...

~~~
gamblor956
A) You can. The US government generates an itemized budget every year. It's
several thousands of pages long, and usually the result of several large
pieces of legislation. All of these are freely available online.

To a lesser extent, the states also generate itemized budgets. Most but not
all of the state-level budget information is available online.

B) You can, to a lesser degree of detail, since non-profit tax returns are
made available for public viewing by law. You can use Charity Navigator (fee
required) or visit your nearest IRS office to view them. Many states also
require non-profits above a certain size to make their financials available
upon request.

