

Appcelerator: extortion is just part of the job - masukomi
http://weblog.masukomi.org/2012/09/22/appcelerator-extortion-is-just-part-of-the-job-dot-dot-dot

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steve8918
Saying that Appcelerator is extorting their users I'm pretty sure enters into
libel territory. Extortion is a crime, and saying that Appcelerator committed
a crime is setting you up for a lawsuit.

It could very well have been an accident on the part of the sales person, and
saying that the CEO is deceiving people because he doesn't use the same words
that you would have used is simply wrong.

If I were you, I would take down the post, or at least change the wording so
that you're not saying they are extorting their customers.

~~~
masukomi
You should note the very explicit disclaimer at the end noting that this is my
personal opinion. Furthermore, the CEO apologized for the incident, and
mentions that it happened before. Logically it happened by their own admission
(so i'm not claiming anything they haven't already admitted to) and the
conclusions based upon their comments ( like moral bankruptcy ) are A)
literally unprovable and subjective and B) explicitly noted as my personal
opinion, which is something we are legally allowed to note publicly.

~~~
steve8918
I strongly suggest you read up on what constitutes libel/defamation. Just by
saying something is your opinion does not protect you, as least in the US.

[https://www.eff.org/issues/bloggers/legal/liability/defamati...](https://www.eff.org/issues/bloggers/legal/liability/defamation)

They didn't apologize for extortion. They apologized for accidentally charging
a developer. That is not extortion. Extortion is a very serious criminal
offense. Unless you have proof that they are actually engaging in extortion,
and that they are engaging in criminal activities, you are making yourself
vulnerable to a lawsuit.

------
ambirex
I'm having a hard time giving this current dust up any credence. There has
been one user who has come forward saying there was unethical behavior from
the UK sales office, the CEO said there have been a couple reports. I'm not
seeing a wide spread change in their behavior or offerings as this blog post
suggests. While something to keep an eye on, I hardly think it warrants the
attention it is currently receiving.

~~~
masukomi
if you followed the story more closely you'd see that there are at least three
reported instances, AND a CEO confirming multiple. this should NEVER happen.
The fact that it has happened multiple times.... how can you not think that
worth a dust-up... or four? You think it's ok to occasionally attempt to
extort your customers? You think salespeople shouldn't be fired on the spot
for treating your customers with such broken morality... repeatedly?

~~~
tzs
You are misinterpreting the CEO's statement. He said:

    
    
       Was the sales rep over eager and trying to hussle
       to get a deal? Probably. In my opinion, that's the
       job of the rep and we work with hundreds of new paying
       customers each quarter and we've only had a few
       complaints about it.
    

He's not saying they've had a few complaints about so-called "extortion". He
is saying they've had only a few complaints about their sales reps total for
all causes.

------
lucaspiller
Erm, something is dodgy here. Either this article is completely fiction or the
CEO's response has been edited since this was posted (2 days ago).

Here is the original post, the CEO's response is the accepted answer at the
top:

[http://developer.appcelerator.com/question/142516/warning-
li...](http://developer.appcelerator.com/question/142516/warning-licensing-of-
titanium-chaotic-and-unclear-how-to-avoid-extortionate-fees)

EDIT: Oh these quotes are from a comment by the CEO on the accepted answer.

~~~
debacle
The CEO's response has been edited a few times since the incident.

------
sainib
I used Appcelerator to build my first app. I just loved the platform and
started a meetup in my area recently because one did not existed. Before I
built the app, I read the pricing page and went through their pricing FAQ and
see that it was FREE if I dont use any of the add on features - and now I read
this. I hope it turns out that there was just a shitty salesperson who was
being over agressive and nothing else but I am sad to see that there is no
clarification on pricing yet. Someone posted a link to an email chain with the
companies sales person in that thread -
[http://dl.dropbox.com/u/4600727/Learning%20TI/AppC_Pricing_e...](http://dl.dropbox.com/u/4600727/Learning%20TI/AppC_Pricing_emails.pdf)
\- where the sales person made this statement -

AppC Explore – This is free for anyone who wants to create an app that does
not generate revenue in any way.

Why is this statement not on the pricing page or even on Pricing FAQ page?

~~~
franze
if i understand the CEOs comments correctly (which is not an easy thing) then
this statement

>his is free for anyone who wants to create an app that does not generate
revenue in any way.

is just not true (a.k.a. false). but in the current state of this affair, we
do not know for sure (and maybe never will).

------
masukomi
INTERESTING UPDATE:

The CEOs comments to his "accepted answer", which my quotes were taken from,
have since been removed from the Appcelerator forum. Funny that. ;)

~~~
russnewcomer
No, they haven't. They are just not showing up right away because of the forum
software's comment hiding. I just went to the post and loaded the entire text
of his comment, which you reference in your post. I can't link to it, again
because of their forum software, but if you click 'show X more comments' under
the Accepted answer, you'll see the post.

~~~
masukomi
ahh thanks @russnewcomer will update the update comment on the post.

------
jawngee

        The iPad app we've been working on is currently 
        using a very useful plugin that can only be found 
        in the Appcelerator ecosystem. I shall be ripping 
        that out and finding some other solution to the 
        problem. There are plenty of competitors in this 
        space.
    

If you were writing a native app you wouldn't have to rip anything out or have
to find it elsewhere. Just sayin'.

I have a fairly aggressive lack of sympathy for phonegap/titanium/"cheap
shortcut" users in general and this whole incident is just sort of
confirmation to part of the reason why.

~~~
masukomi
meh, I don't think _this_ has really got anything to do with "cheap shortcut"
methods. _this_ is about broken morals. But, with that said, my impression is
that while there are a lot of downsides to using HTML5 for your app, there's a
LOT of amazing things you can do with the UI that are much harder in Objective
C, and it's a hell of a lot more affordable to contract HTML devs than it is
Obj C devs. ;) And when you're bootstrapping an app that is a big deal.

~~~
jonny_eh
Titanium isn't an HTML5 based app framework like Phonegap. It's a Javascript
framework for building apps that use the native UI widgets.

~~~
pfisch
My experience with titanium was really poor. Lots of silent fails with no real
error output. Also I found it very limited, more limited than just opening a
webview and using html5 really and hooking into it with code for the native
functionality.

~~~
prpatel
You must be joking. I've built _several_ projects, for pay, using Titanium and
find it to be very powerful and fast for building even complex mobile apps.
The customers have been thrilled that I'm able to deliver tons of features in
shorter time frames and hence lower cost.

As for error output - you just need to look at the logs in detail (and turn
them up to trace) to get details for hard crashed.

~~~
pfisch
I built one project with it for pay. It is much more limited than a real
native solution like obj-c, monotouch, etc.

What exactly would you do if the client came back to you and requested
something titanium couldn't do?

When I was using it it had problems even moving to a page with a webview
already loaded up to a webpage.

Have you built a project with a real native language for pay?

------
juanbyrge
Did appcelerator steal your blankie ? It's annouing dealing with developers
like this that feel entitled to everything for free.

~~~
masukomi
... free? I don't give a shit about free vs. paid. I give a shit about how
morally broken it is to practice extortion on your customers (free or
otherwise). I've got no problem with paying for good service. Are you
suggesting that it is unreasonable to be upset about a company you deal with
trying to extort thousands of pounds from people?

~~~
juanbyrge
I don't mean to sound patronizing but that's how sales (and business) works.
Like it or not when you sign up for apcelerator you are part of their sales
life cycle. And sometimes there might be confusion about who to contact about
upgrading to a pro license. Sounds like an isolated human error.

If you can't handle the prospect of being contacted by companies don't develop
using their sdk, stick with developing apps for gnome or openbsd.

Also you sound so bitter. Give forgiveness a chance.

~~~
wpietri
You wrote "Did appcelerator steal your blankie?", which is quite literally
treating him like he's a three-year-old and you claim you didn't mean to sound
patronizing? What else could have you possibly meant with that as an opening
sentence?

Also, you aggressively miss the point. He's not upset about being contacted.
He's upset about having them threaten to take down his app.

