
Knuth versus Email (1999) - MrXOR
https://www-cs-faculty.stanford.edu/~knuth/email.html
======
tosh
> Of course, "email" has been a familiar word in France, Germany, and the
> Netherlands much longer than in England --- but for an entirely different
> reason.

[https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Émail_(verre)](https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Émail_\(verre\))

[https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Email](https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Email)

[https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Email_(glazuur)](https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Email_\(glazuur\))

~~~
pulse7
In UK: "How to send an 'E mail'" (1984):
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=szdbKz5CyhA](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=szdbKz5CyhA)

~~~
nanna
Thames TV transmitted programmes over TV audio?! What a wonderful watch, thank
you pulse7.

Electronically yours,

~~~
Yetanfou
There used to be a thing called 'Basicode' [1], one of the first attempts to
create a cross-platform language for microcomputers. Basicode consisted of the
programming language itself which was a rather limited dialect of BASIC, a
number of transcoders from this basicode BASIC dialect to the native BASIC
versions for several microcomputers and - which is what made me think of it -
a universal audio data transmission standard which was used to transmit
Basicode programs over the aether to users. Basicode was started in the
Netherlands by the 'Hobbyscooop' radio show but gained popularity elsewhere as
well, notably also in the former German Democratic Republic. I still have the
original Basicode book somewhere in a box in the barn, along with the
Commodore 64 which I used it with. To be honest I quickly got bored with
Basicode since the programs received through the radio were rather
underwhelming compared to what I could make the thing do myself by programming
it in assembly (6502 might be limited but it is a good starting architecture
for budding assembly programmers).

[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BASICODE](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BASICODE)

------
gerikson
My favorite Knuth quote is from his FAQ on being retired[1]

> Being a retired professor is a lot like being an ordinary professor, except
> that you don't have to write research proposals, administer grants, or sit
> in committee meetings. Also, you don't get paid.

[1] [https://www-cs-faculty.stanford.edu/~knuth/retd.html](https://www-cs-
faculty.stanford.edu/~knuth/retd.html)

------
theaeolist
It's not true, obviously. I have been in DK's office, I have seen him read and
write email.

~~~
Fiveplus
Having refuted the central point of this entire essay, why do you think he
wrote this in the first place?

~~~
aberseti
Like most people who say they're going to quit something he probably just
started using it again when he realised it was useful and maybe even
essential, and didn't bother to update this webpage. It's been 30 years after
all.

~~~
formerly_proven
> Changed by: Ursula N. Owen, 8-Mar-1999

~~~
bshimmin
_I was curious about this “Ursula N. Owen”, thinking perhaps she was an
assistant of Knuth’s back in the 90s. It turns out that it’s a pseudonym
sometimes used by Knuth himself, and is a reference to “U.N. Owen”, a
character from And Then There Were None, a best-selling Agatha Christie novel
first published in 1939 and one of the best-selling books of all time. The
name “UN Owen” itself is a play on “unknown”, and I like to think of Donald
chuckling to himself whenever he used that pseudonym._

From the postscript on [https://ryanwaggoner.substack.com/p/could-you-delete-
your-em...](https://ryanwaggoner.substack.com/p/could-you-delete-your-email-
account)

------
MrXOR
UPDATE1: Don has an email address: taocp (at) cs.stanford.edu

UPDATE2: How the World’s Most Famous Computer Scientist Checks E-mail Only
Once Every Three Months:

[https://www.calnewport.com/blog/2008/07/17/bonus-post-how-
th...](https://www.calnewport.com/blog/2008/07/17/bonus-post-how-the-worlds-
most-famous-computer-scientist-checks-e-mail-only-once-every-three-months/)

I find past discussion of this link:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11461077](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11461077)

Neal Stephenson vs Email or Why I Am a Sociomediapath?

[https://www.nealstephenson.com/social-
media.html](https://www.nealstephenson.com/social-media.html)
[https://www.nealstephenson.com/contact.html](https://www.nealstephenson.com/contact.html)

Good Links to read more:

[https://www.chronicle.com/article/is-email-making-
professors...](https://www.chronicle.com/article/is-email-making-professors-
stupid/)

[https://www.calnewport.com/blog/2008/07/02/e-mail-zero-
imagi...](https://www.calnewport.com/blog/2008/07/02/e-mail-zero-imagining-
life-without-e-mail/)

[https://www.newyorker.com/tech/annals-of-technology/was-e-
ma...](https://www.newyorker.com/tech/annals-of-technology/was-e-mail-a-
mistake)

------
dhosek
I had a few exchanges with DEK back in the 80s. Even then he had his secretary
filtering his e-mail and if a response was warranted, she would request a
postal address so he could send his answer handwritten on a printout of the
e-mail. I still have those answers in a box along with other correspondence
from the era.

~~~
jfk13
I also had a few such exchanges (mine would have been at the end of the 80s or
early 90s, I think) -- by snail-mail in both directions. His replies came in
envelopes addressed to me as "Dr. ..." or even once as "Prof. ...", which I
found pleasantly amusing, as I hadn't actually graduated from anywhere, let
alone reached such exalted heights.

(His usual form of reply, as I recall it, would be a note pencilled on a copy
of my letter.)

~~~
dhosek
I often got email addressed to Prof. Hosek or Dr. Hosek when I was in
undergrad courtesy of my activity in the TeX world. I don't think I've gotten
any such misattribution once after actually getting a degree, even when I was
teaching college as an adjunct.

------
082349872349872
For people not DEK tempted to try this approach, consider the implications of
[http://phdcomics.com/comics/archive.php?comicid=1446](http://phdcomics.com/comics/archive.php?comicid=1446)
.

On the other hand, I do have a friend who, while he was Dean, had his email on
three day delay. The theory: only those problems which were still problems
after 72 hours were worth addressing at a super-departmental level.

~~~
impendia
> while he was Dean, had his email on three day delay.

I'm a professor. I can't help but think that this is a _terrible_ idea.

As Dean, it is your job to enable the faculty members and department chairs
who report to you. To figure out what obstacles they face, and remove them
when possible. To figure out who is doing good work -- especially of the sort
that goes unnoticed. To sort through requests for money and other resources,
and to figure out who will put these resources to good use.

In other words, the same as any manager at any organization.

~~~
bregma
If it's important enough to not tolerate a 72-hour delay, email is a
completely inappropriate medium through which it should be communicated. A
competent worker would certainly be aware of that.

The medium is part of the message. Avoid sending the wrong message.

~~~
ggrrhh_ta
What would the proper way be?

~~~
mschuster91
If it's urgent, drop a call.

~~~
ghaff
Of course, plenty of people here would toss a fit if someone were to call
their phone. It's also worth noting that your perceived crisis may not be my
crisis.

------
abdullahkhalids
The amount of connectedness is a spectrum. DK [1] is at one extreme end of the
spectrum, the other end is getting a notification at any time of the day or
night when you get an email and immediately reading it.

We all have different jobs, and all jobs require different amounts of
connectedness. But if you want, you can move slowly towards DK's end of the
spectrum. I don't have email on my phone, for instance. While inconvenient
sometimes, the benefits outweigh the costs. And when I want to do deep work, I
close Thunderbird.

[1] Such appropriate initials.

------
jhncls
Lex Fridman had an interesting interview with Don Knuth close to his 82nd
birthday[0]. It's fascinating to learn how much energy he still spends at
verifying and investigating each aspect of newly published algorithms. E-mail
would probably cut away too much time from what he considers more important.

[0]: [https://youtu.be/2BdBfsXbST8](https://youtu.be/2BdBfsXbST8)

~~~
yannis7
typo: "Email would probably..." ;)

------
timwis
This freedom seems directly tied to where you are on the totem pole..

~~~
andreskytt
The man has spent a lifetime getting there. You could, too.

------
mlang23
Interesting. I remember having written an email to Donald Knuth about 15 years
ago. And, surprise surprise, I got a reply! In retrospect, my question was
extremely naive. However, I am still thankful for a honest answer.

------
m0ck
I always found it hilarious that this guy was fed up with email 5 fucking
years before the first machine was connected to Internet in my Central
European country.

~~~
container
That sounds a little surprising to me. Are you sure that weren't even any
government or university machines online before early 1995?

~~~
deepstack
All I'm trying to say is that Internet (Both web and email and others) has
gotten way more hostile since then.

~~~
deepstack
why is this down voted? It is just a fact.

------
the_af
I wonder what Knuth thinks of Slack and instant messaging then!

Emails feels pretty low pressure to me. I don't need to answer it today -- or,
in some cases, ever -- whereas Slack and similar messaging systems come with
the expectation that you must answer ASAP. Surely you've seen the message, why
aren't you typing an answer yet? It's very high pressure.

I love email. Every attempt at replacing it with something "better" upsets me.

~~~
rietta
I honestly thought of doing a blog post where I take these words and replace
email with Slack. I have issues with email that my PM is trying hard to get me
to delegate more to her and others so I can focus on the higher value work.
Slack I actually am on the verge of hating. Especially when every client wants
to communicate via their private Slack instead of much saner email and GitHub
issues. The worst thing about Slack is the non-federated nature of it. It is
practically impossible when you work with more than a dozen startups and other
organizations all who have their own.

~~~
divbzero
I’m picturing you printing out Slack messages, jotting down your responses,
and sending them back by snail mail.

------
kashyapc
For many open source contributors and maintainers, it's always not an option
to "be on the bottom of things".

Patches (for some projects) flow via e-mail.

So there's some decent amount of "being on top of things". Not at the rate of
"I need to feverishly refresh my Inbox every 2 minutes", but "I ought process
these patches/designs/bug e-mails at some sane rate that doesn't drive me
bonkers". (Which can be done effectively with venerable tools like Mutt, et
al; refer to the recent thread on it:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24173676](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24173676)
– "Mutt email client 25 years old")

This is just saying the boring truth that there's different _kind_ of
e-mail—the draining, unproductive long threads that don't go anywhere and the
"get the work done"-style patches/designs/bug work e-mails.

~~~
bonzini
Oh how I wish I sometimes had the choice to be on the bottom of things. :-)

Though I sometimes do get pretty close to disconnecting myself if I have some
difficult or urgent task, and on vacation of course. If the world around us
cannot survive with us leaving for a week or two, there's a problem on both
sides!

~~~
kashyapc
I hear you. :-) I never cease to be amazed at how seasoned maintainers like
you handle the sheer volume of public email, while continuing to stay
effective over the years, healthy disconnection, _and_ setting an example to
emulate on how to conduct oneself in public.

(On the problem you refer to, some of us here will recognise that well-meaning
FOSS developer who starts getting anxious to take a two-week vacation with the
family because "there's no one else who is able to process the core pull
requests" for their project.)

------
fileeditview
This approach certainly gets rid of a lot of unnecessary communication. It is
like a special spam filter. Not many people will go through with writing a
real letter. For most requests it's probably not worth it for them. Et
voila... filtered.

If you don't need anyone reaching you this seems like a good strategy.

------
bawana
Ok. Well, I guess ‘social media’ is a nonstarter for him.

OTOH, maybe his insight says something about our addiction to social media. He
has a real life and the rest of us have less of it. Who knew that computer
scientists could craft a tool that Could steal our lives.

------
simonebrunozzi
> `I don't even have an e-mail address. I have reached an age where my main
> purpose is not to receive messages.' \--- Umberto Eco, quoted in the New
> Yorker

Loved this quote from Umberto Eco. RIP. (died in 2016)

------
jahbrewski
Makes me question my own habits: compulsive checking of email/Slack has really
become the norm. On the one hand, as a manager, I want to be available to my
team if they have any questions. On the other hand, a barrage of notifications
and interruptions makes it hard to get focused deep work done.

------
amelius
There would be less spam if sending it had an actual cost.

Perhaps we should just add a (small) price to sending email?

~~~
vbezhenar
There were attempts to introduce computing costs required to deliver a
message.

Hashcash is a proof-of-work system used to limit email spam. Bitmessage uses
proof of work to combat spam as well. Though those approaches do not seem to
be popular.

My guess is that spammers can operate at scale, rent or buy GPUs, may be even
build ASICs. So they'll have very cheap work. While ordinary person will use
some cheap 5-year old Android phone which would spend a lot of time and
battery to compute that kind of work.

It might reduce amount of extremely low-quality spam. But I guess that kind of
spam is easily detectable by something like default spamassassin setup anyway.

~~~
amelius
I'm not a fan of solutions that require energy to be wasted. At least with
normal payments, total value is conserved.

------
brian_herman__
Human curated email that sounds like the perfect startup.

------
slightwinder
I wonder whether he owns a smartphone now and if is is using it for personal
communication with his family.

~~~
ghaff
Not everyone in tech has a smartphone. I know a fairly senior manager at a
well-known Silicon Valley company who only got one when he joined that company
and they gave him one he needed to use for work.

------
supernova87a
Well, he only gets to do this because he's achieved some measure of success in
his life, right? I dare others not so distinguished to try and reproduce his
approach.

~~~
NateEag
I've had decent success establishing in my workplace that I check email in
batches a few times a day.

If you want me immediately, call me, message me, or walk over to me (well,
pre-COVID, anyway).

I'm confident I'm not as distinguished or successful as Donald Knuth.

------
dmortin
It's easy not to have email if you have a secretary who filters and prints out
the incoming messages for you.

I guess he never orders anything on the net, doesn't use any online services,
because those usually require an email address where the receipts and
acknowledgements are sent.

~~~
rwmj
I imagine one day we'll all have digital personal assistants who can do this,
so having a secretary shouldn't be a barrier eventually.

My worry is that these personal assistants will all be provided "free" by
giant companies and hosted in the cloud so I won't want to use them.

~~~
segfaultbuserr
> _personal assistants will all be provided "free" by giant companies and
> hosted in the cloud so I won't want to use them._

The more worrying fact to me, is not MegaCorp will be providing it, but that
it's possible that self-hosting would be technologically infeasible. That is,
even if MegaCorp gives you a free and open copy of personal assistant, it's
still not practical run it on your own hardware - massive computing power and
storage is required to operate it, and massive data is needed to train (and
continue to train) the machine learning model. Only MegaCorp can afford to run
it, and provide it as a service.

This has already happened in web search, content recommendation, speech
recognition, machine translation, and many more applications. It's simply
impossible to run your own speech recognition or machine translation package
that has a comparable quality to Google's.

And these technologies will eventually become an integral part of life in a
future society - e.g. When you must use machine translation or personal
assistant in your daily life, and when only MegaCorp can provide a high-
quality solution, it's a recipe of disaster. It's Ghost in the Shell.

Unfortunately, I'm definitely seeing it as a very likely outcome.

The only possible way to stop it, is to continue advancing computing power
according to Moore's Law - which is, fortunately, not entirely impossible if
alternative computing technologies are developed in the future. But still,
there's still the ML training problem.

~~~
ocdtrekkie
> This has already happened in web search, content recommendation, speech
> recognition, machine translation, and many more applications. It's simply
> impossible to run your own speech recognition or machine translation package
> that has a comparable quality to Google's.

I don't really agree with that. All of these things can be done on your own
machine, and generally comparably or even in a superior fashion to Google.
Bear in mind that Google has to focus on a very long tail of "serving every
single user", whereas your software has to serve you.

This means _your_ speech recognition needs to support your speech, not the
speech of every accent and dialect on earth. Your content recommendation can
be limited to types of content that are even peripherally of interest to you,
and likely in a limited subset of languages.

Basically any amount of data and processing Google needs to do something for
everyone, you can massively subset for just yourself. The biggest issue is
that most of the data and code that companies like Google are using is
proprietary, so good luck getting a copy to run.

~~~
dhosek
Apple does their speech to text entirely on-device for phones (I just did a
quick dictation test in airplane mode to verify. I think the watch offloads
the process to the phone). It astonishes me just how much computing power is
in my pocket.

~~~
0xCMP
And the next version supposedly is getting its own offline abilities now.

------
5cott0
What's an email?

------
brettermeier
An old-schooler printing out his emails... Why is this upvoted?

------
spiderfarmer
"I have reached an age where my main purpose is not to receive messages.'"

This is my goal. Avoiding unnecessary stress and interruptions is a bigger
goal for me than creating more wealth.

It's not an age thing though. I'm 37. I still happily communicate with other
people, but ideally it's only when I make or take the time for it. That's why
I worked from home, in a rural area, trying to get to 100% 'passive' income by
the end of 2021.

~~~
Konohamaru
"I have reached an age where my main purpose is not to receive messages."

An object unable to receive messages is soon marked for garbage collection.

~~~
spiderfarmer
Let's just say I prefer polling to pushing.

------
jonny383
What a waste of trees.

~~~
mtreis86
I don't understand this, can't we just grow more trees? Reading emails is a
huge waste of time and I don't see how we can produce much more of that, let
alone produce more Donald Knuths.

~~~
throw0101a
> _I don 't understand this, can't we just grow more trees?_

Sure.

But you also have to transport people to the forests where they grow, operate
machines to cut them down and trim them, transport them to pulp mills, use a
lot of water to generate the pulp (often add bleach to whiten it), and then
distribute the final product. There's also the create of printers and
ink/toner.

And once DK has spent 30-60s reading the printout, it gets tossed into
(hopefully) the blue pin where more energy is spent trying to recycle it.

And a lot of the energy used is generated from fossil fuels.

~~~
notmyname9173
And the paper that's sent to landfills breaks down into global warming-
worsening gases.

