
A 16th-century engineer whose work almost defeated the Ottomans - petethomas
https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2017/05/a-16th-century-engineer-whose-work-almost-defeated-an-empire/
======
feral
A personal anecdote from a non-historian:

Some years back I took a holiday in Malta.

Taking the ferry to Valletta, climbing the ramp up from the dock, I was
shocked to see the scale of the fortifications. I knew it was a strategically
important place, but what surprised me was how obviously the entire walled
peninsula of Valletta seemed to have been constructed first and foremost as a
fortress. It's easy to forget the scale and scope of historical conflict and
the effort that went into it, and this was a stark reminder.

The other thing that surprised me was that they had the old suits of armor of
the commanders of the order, and I was surprised how big they were. I'm pretty
tall (6"6) and was surprised to see the suits were close to my height.
Presumably bigger than the men that wore them, but what occurred to me was
"these are the guys who made it to the the top of their organization, the
commanders, and they must have been very big for their time. This is probably
an organization that values brute strength."

I don't know if that's a valid inference or not, but Malta definitely left the
impression it was created by folk who mean business.

This linked article is really interesting context, makes me realize why Malta
was built so well.

~~~
YZF
Isn't there still a correlation between status and size these days? Tall with
good hair and you're already leadership material...

It's amazing how much of that story could have been written yesterday.
Tunneling is still used in the middle-east as a war tactic. North Korea
tunnels to South Korea. The value of engineering ;) Embargoes are essentially
siege tactics.

~~~
_pmf_
> Isn't there still a correlation between status and size these days?

Yes. The wage gap between short men and huge men makes any perceived gender
based wage gap between male and female look very, very puny.

~~~
vog
Sorry for the nitpick, but:

Why do you present the height-based wage gap as a fact, while presenting the
gender-based wage gap merely as "perceived"?

Is there more evidence for the former wage gap than for the latter? Or, is the
one type of discrimination more acceptable than the other?

~~~
bonesss
Not the original poster, but:

A number of the gender based wage gap studies that have made a splash in the
press have neglected to account for multiple facets of employment and
occupational risk leading to conclusions showing an outsize pay gap... They've
documented inequal outcomes in the market based on equivalent experience or
education across sectors without controlling for inequality of physical-
demands and employment distribution... The popular press then extrapolates
these findings inartfully, leading to a shared sense of gender discrimination
that is not borne out by the broader market.

I know this is something of a hot button topic, so I'll be extra clear: women
and men are of equal value, and deserve equal pay for equal work, naturally.
But we have to own the fact that, statistically, men _really should_ be
earning more at work as long as men are doing the majority of high-risk
occupations and women are taking more time off of work when having children.
There are a lot of different studies, but last I dug into this when you start
comparing more apples-to-apples you find that the gender gap is nowhere near
the oft cited 0.75 cents on the dollar.

There is a gender pay gap, though it's quite difficult IMO to pin that gap on
broad sexism given a few cultural factors. Namely men being 6 times more
likely to ask for a raise at work, men being more likely to measure self-worth
at work through money and not peer approval, societal pressures for men to be
a 'provider', and for men to measure self-worth almost exclusively through
career success.

While we're looking at why young men are more likely to find themselves doing
EOD work or high-voltage wire repair than women, lets also remember that the
physical difference between the sexes can, in fact, be a life or death matter
in some occupations... And if we want to compare employment outcomes by
_years_ of education taken, we really need to quantify how dirty and dangerous
jobs oriented towards physical labour would ideally be gender-represented in
the market. Ie Sewer repair technicians and plumbers and construction skew
male and high paying compared to white collar positions with the same length
of training - are we really going to expect 50% female representation in those
fields?

Height based studies, on the other hand, are much easier to setup controls
for. Outside of the far extremes height doesn't fundamentally impact
employment opportunities, and demographically are much easier in terms of
experimental design. As long as those studies control for certain kinds of
physical work which self-select towards large/small people we should be able
to get a reasonable grasp of how the world responds to taller people. Last I
checked a few inches in height meant a significant increase in yearly takehome
pay, management opportunities, and attractiveness as a mate.

Bottom line: easier studies that aren't politically loaded tend to give us
better data than harder studies that are rich with social and political
subtext... Women should get paid as well as men, but we can't pretend that
Geese and Ganders are one and the same. Deep sea welders get paid a _lot of
money_ and jobs like that will create a statistical gender pay gap as long as
they are not equally distributed among the genders.

~~~
pow_pp_-1_v
This comment, at the very least, should make think a bit more critically when
reading or listening to stories about the gender pay gap. Thanks!

------
jballanc
Suleyman was not only a great military mind, but an extremely astute
politician as well. One thing the article fails to mention is that Suleyman
didn't just let the people of Rhodes "go free" after their defeat, the Knights
Hospitaler had to hand over their fortresses in Kos and Bodrum as part of the
deal. This was a smart move as the castle in Bodrum was much better fortified,
and Suleyman got it without, in essence, firing a shot. For this reason, the
castle in Bodrum is extremely well preserved and a must see if you want to get
a sense of crusader architecture.

~~~
aedron
I liked this part of the article:

 _" Suleiman was respectful and generous in victory. The citizens of Rhodes
were to be exempt from both taxation and conscription for the next five years.
Tadini was allowed to leave. He went to the colonies of Genoa, where he again
fought invading Ottoman forces and again lost.

The Order of St. John was allowed to leave in peace and build a new fortress
elsewhere. They did so on Malta, where their walls could be built on stone and
therefore could not be undermined. Toward the end of his life, Suleiman sent a
force to conquer Malta. This time the siege failed, in part because he was not
there to keep order or impose his implacable will."_

This kind of graciousness in warfare does not seem to exist in modern times.
Weird, considering how brutal war in those times looks compared with today.

~~~
Avalaxy
> This kind of graciousness in warfare does not seem to exist in modern times.
> Weird, considering how brutal war in those times looks compared with today.

Well, there was a ton of brutality then as well. Probably even much worse than
today.

~~~
Noseshine
I think so too. In our recent conflicts when you were caught you might get
shot, the ancients used torture-killing so cruel I can't even read about it
without feeling sick. Not even the Nazis used something like the Brazen Bull
([https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brazen_bull](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brazen_bull)),
and that's just a simple device and procedure, they were much more inventive
than that in the past. 1000 years ago those involved in the assassination
attempt on "Der Führer" would have faced far more horrible deaths than they
actually got. It seems to me even the most evil Nazis didn't have 1% of the
imagination of the ancients (possibly excluding Dr. Josef Mengele, but he
didn't think a about how to create pain, he just didn't care if his subjects
did).

------
SnakePlissken
There's a fantastic book by Roger Crowley called _Empires of the Sea_ that
covers the Habsburg-Ottoman war for control of the Mediterranean. The early
chapters go into great detail on the Siege of Rhodes, including Tadini's
efforts, and how the lessons learned there would set the stage for later
battles (particularly Malta and Lepanto) and the end of Ottoman supremacy. For
anyone interested in this article or the era in general I can't recommend it
enough.

~~~
jballanc
Definitely adding that to my reading list. My understanding is that the
Ottoman strategy for controlling the Mediterranean was to go the "long way
'round" and control as much of the surrounding ports, as opposed to the
Knights Hospitaler, the Genoese, and the Venetians who took the approach of
building unmatched naval strength.

As an example, during the siege of Constantinople, the Genoese and Venetian
navies were ultimately defeated when the Ottomans literally _carried their
ships over land_ to get behind the other's defensive line.

------
lucio
Interesting note. It's a funny thing that in the current climate nobody
mentions the underpinning of the conflict depicted in the article, hundred of
years of struggle between Christianity and Islam.

Wikipedia: >According to Ottoman understanding, the state's primary
responsibility was to defend and extend the land of the Muslims and to ensure
security and harmony within its borders within the overarching context of
orthodox Islamic practice and dynastic sovereignty

~~~
eternalban
That's the state propaganda. Turkic people in that area are later arrivals,
and the Ottoman Turks basically pinned their legitimacy on the religion of the
region. Suleiman was "generous" because the state propaganda of the time was
"Ottoman Justice".

Consider a hypothetical history with Persian empire not falling to Muslims and
Byzantine also enduring. Best buddies forever or likely the same pattern of
pull-push on borders and a cultural clusters boundary condition?

Geography is the key here, not people's misunderstanding regarding the meaning
of it all.

~~~
mda
As if almost anything written about events in history is not propaganda. There
is barely any complete truth. English Wikipedia in general just spews same
thing western historians words, others do the same to fit their agenda.
History is a joke.

~~~
eternalban
Well, not really what I was saying. More like 'geography is history' ala
'character is destiny'.

------
berlincount
For people who love alternative history stories, the "Ring of Fire" series
(starting with "1632", which you can get for free at
[http://www.baen.com/1632.html](http://www.baen.com/1632.html)) is highly
recommended.

The Suleyman portrait there (in
[http://ericflint.wikia.com/wiki/Ottoman_Empire](http://ericflint.wikia.com/wiki/Ottoman_Empire))
is also rather astute.

~~~
jeff_petersen
Great series of books, I'll second this recommendation

------
metastart
Great read!

"...an early genius of military engineering, Gabriele Tadini." But more than
1500 years before him there were others such as Archimedes and Caesar.

I wonder if Tadini was a polymath similar to other great military engineers
like Archimedes and Leonoardo who would have been living at the same time as
him.

~~~
Kenji
I'd wager that everyone back then who made a name for himself with
intellectual pursuits was a polymath. Simply because knowledge was hard to
come by and you couldn't specialise so much that you remained ignorant about
the grand scheme of things of everything else, like it is possible today.

~~~
azernik
Or alternatively, the breadth of human knowledge was small enough that one
person could hold most of it in their head.

~~~
mordant
One of my favorite party questions is, "Who was the last man who knew
_everything_?"

~~~
hutzlibu
I doubt, that there ever was such a man.

For example knowing about plants and animals. We as whole humanity are still
far from knowing them all on the earth, so how could somebody from history
knew them all?

And even if you only count "everything" as the whole current knowledge of
humanity, then also no, as there are for example tribes in the jungle who know
about plants or hunting technics the genius in europe never heard of.

~~~
a3n
> I doubt, that there ever was such a man.

I've heard this question before. I think it's more useful to think of it as
"When was the last era when it was possible for one person to know everything
that's known?"

Doubtful that there ever was such a particular person, at least because of
geography, as you point out, and different concerns in different parts of the
world. But there must have been such an era; I don't know when that was.

------
michaelcampbell
> or crenelations for releasing boiling oil

In various trips to the UK and dozens of castle walking tours, almost to a
guide they said (paraphrasing) "no one used boiling oil. It was way too
precious a commodity." Water, sure.

------
choonway
> Villiers (the leader of the defenders) had ignored the many warriors who
> told him the same (that the city was no longer defensible), but listened to
> the engineer (Tadini).

This made my day. :)

------
teddyh
This event was covered in part II of Extra History’s series on Suleiman the
Magnificent:

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JGZSkLq3Eng&list=PLhyKYa0YJ_...](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JGZSkLq3Eng&list=PLhyKYa0YJ_5Be8gG49Sh7rsW_fFNcbGOE)

------
bane
Most people casually interested in the crusader period know about the Knights
Templar. But it turns out the Knights of St. John are just as fascinating,
still exist, and have sovereign status similar to a nation-state. They built
the impressive fortifications at Rhodes, which have technically never been
defeated (they surrendered after a six month siege and only with the word of
Suleiman the Magnificent that the survivors would be granted safe passage off
the island). Then moved to Malta where they built an even more impressive set
of fortifications and civic structures.

The Knights were composed mostly of nobles from Europe and thus brought
tremendous wealth with them. Initially they set up hospitals in the 12th
century to care for pilgrims traveling from Europe to the Holy Land. That role
grew into a militarily defensive role and then grew some full-on military
features by the 14th century.

Being composed of rich Nobles, the order at one point may have had access to
more wealth than the entire rest of the Roman Catholic Church during this time
period. During the early Malta period of the 16th century, the Knights built
one of the most incredible and beautiful buildings I've ever seen. The outside
isn't much to look at, but the inside is one of the most decorated buildings
I've ever been in -- pictures don't really do it justice. The local "real"
Cathedral built by the Catholic Church looks positively spartan in comparison
even though it also is a beautiful building.

[http://www.maltacultureguide.com/admin/images/stjohn_04_big....](http://www.maltacultureguide.com/admin/images/stjohn_04_big.jpg)

[http://www.divine-
name.info/worldwide/malta/mdina/Mdina2.JPG](http://www.divine-
name.info/worldwide/malta/mdina/Mdina2.JPG)

The order survived into the modern age, and over the ages did a number of
works, continued to administer Malta, and happened to colonize parts of the
Caribbean. Weakened during both the Protestant Reformation and the Napoleonic
wars, but returned to the roots as a human welfare and religious group. They
eventually changed their name to "the Sovereign Military Order of Malta"
(SMOM) which they keep to this day as the oldest surviving order of chivalry.

Amazingly it actually is a "sovereign" order, meaning they're viewed in many
circles to have power equal to that of a minor nation-state even though they
have no territory at all -- the only example in the world today. For example,
SMOM is a permanent observer in the U.N. [1] and maintains diplomatic
relations with 106 countries. It can enter into treaties, issue passports,
coins and postage. Their headquarter buildings in Rome are treated as
Embassies and enjoy diplomatic extraterritoriality.

1 - [https://www.un.int/orderofmalta/](https://www.un.int/orderofmalta/)

2 -
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sovereign_Military_Order_of_Ma...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sovereign_Military_Order_of_Malta)

------
Abishek_Muthian
But I'm sure, by the scale of successful conquests on the ottoman side; there
are several successful engineering innovations at their end as well. What
makes Tadini's work note-worthy is the usual 'David vs Goliath' emphasis and
also Ottoman Empire did not survive; history is written (mostly re-written) by
the victors !

~~~
kodfodrasz
Usually a claim is most effective if it has some substance, for example some
proof. Could you please provide some references to those innovations instead
of shaming another culture, who is remembering one of its lost ones?

Also the knight orders have not survived. Should I blame the victors (whoever
they are, as in this story the Ottomans won, for example), for writing
history?

------
raintrees
I will have to remember to mention this article to the next person I play
Stratego with.

------
antocv
Oh, the last sentence reveals the purpose of the article"

"See, kids, the reason mass surveillance ala Snowden has to exist is because
the other side mines and we undermine, its always been like this."

~~~
na85
I up voted this post because I think the greater conversation regarding
astroturfing and media conditioning us to accept certain policies needs to be
had, but I think you could have found a better way to say it.

------
literallycancer
It seems that mining is still used today:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zwTj0tWMh2A](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zwTj0tWMh2A)

------
bricksmart
Interesting subject, but why does it feel like I'm reading a passage from a
standardized test?

~~~
bricksmart
Followup: why the downvote? This article has a bizarre and amateurish ending:

    
    
      "Despite Tadini's losses, his methods have continued to 
      influence combat into the present. Mining and 
      countermining, with all their attendant surveillance and 
      engineering, are still staples of warfare."
    

This is actually worse than a passage from a test -- it sounds like a student
essay written in response. It's little better than:

    
    
      In conclusion, Tadini's mining is still influential today.
    

which is vague, abrupt and unsubstantiated -- the article makes no mention of
mining in the current day. Am I the only one who finds this odd?

~~~
sillysaurus3
I notice you're new to HN. Welcome!
[https://news.ycombinator.com/newswelcome.html](https://news.ycombinator.com/newswelcome.html)

To understand what makes HN different from other sites, you may want to
familiarize yourself with the guidelines:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html](https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html)

In particular, we try to write comments that are interesting to read. That
rules out swipes and one-line dismissals: calling something amateurish, or
complaining about downvotes.

HN has a lot to offer as a community, and we started out as a tight-knit group
of refugees from sites like Reddit. This place has grown up a lot since then,
but those fundamentals were the reason for HN's success.

Your second comment was better than your first -- a substantive dismissal is
always preferable. And you can write comments like that if you really want to.
I usually find it's more productive to focus on what's cool about a piece.
There's usually something.

However if an article is mistaken, that's worth calling out. Some of the best
HN comments are refutations. Though you'll want to be certain you're correct,
or else you'll get called out yourself. :)

~~~
bricksmart
Thank you for the reply. Having lurked on HN for a while, I'm used to some
negativity, or at least very critical, comments. So when most of the comments
for this piece appeared positive something seemed off.

Anyway, I appreciate the environment on HN and the steps users like you take
to preserve it.

