
The pros and cons of 'fuck you' money. - jacquesm
http://jacquesmattheij.com/The+pros+and+cons+of+%27fuck+you%27+money.
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JabavuAdams
_The most important thing the FYM has brought me I think is almost complete
freedom to pursue whatever it is that my heart desires (in terms of time), and
to buy tools to do whatever it is that I want to do. I would not trade that
for any base salary+options package because my time is the only asset I've got
that will only diminish and of which I have an unknown quantity to begin with.
Having a steady passive income stream translates in to freedom the kind of
which is hard to describe until you've experienced it, I'd fight pretty hard
to maintain this life, even if it meant operating at an even lower level of
income.

Freedom - in terms of time - is priceless._

Amen. That's my goal.

~~~
amichail
I would like this freedom also. However, generally people do their best work
when they are in adverse circumstances (e.g., they are broke).

Perhaps by the time one achieves this freedom, their best work is behind them.

~~~
jacquesm
> Perhaps by the time one achieves this freedom, their best work is behind
> them.

I think SpaceX is a great example to the contrary.

~~~
elblanco
I'm not so sure. In terms of dollars (compared to national space programs)
they were broke from the beginning. This constraint has forced them to think
about the problem in a different way and seek efficiencies that probably don't
occur to the larger programs.

While on a personal level, the money Musk had was FU money, on a company
level, SpaceX has been operating out of the poor house.

~~~
jacquesm
Amichail was talking about people, I meant SpaceX as an example of how the
person Elon Musk outdid himself post FUM by founding SpaceX.

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mikumetz
Looking at the crisis of social security and "performance" of my modest 401k
funds I sometimes feel that my own successful startup (with a modest exit) may
be my only way to escape extreme poverty at older age. I doubt that anyone
will hire a 65 year old programmer and I just don't see how SS+401k will be
enough to deal with living/medical expenses. In that sense I'm desperate:
starting a successful project is matter of survival.

Is it just me who is having similar thoughts?

~~~
MrFoof
I've a similar mindset, though where I'll deviate is I'm 28.

For me I think the reality is that I expect computer literacy to continue to
increase, while some slick abstractions will be developed in the next 25
years. Granted, software developers will still be in demand, yet there'll be
more labor available in the market, and much of it will be more accessible
which will drive down salaries a bit as the labor supply starts to catch up
with demand. I also lack a formal degree, though real-world experience and
self-teaching myself most of a CS and Mathematics undergrad curriculum has
prevented that from becoming a problem.

Also, I'm watching my 60+ year-old parents go through it. They sold their
house to free up cash. I had to bail them out (for 18 months) when I was 22-23
for a non-trivial amounts of money, since no one else could've helped them
out. My uncle and aunt are in the same boat. My sister is ridden with debt.
Parents of neighborhood kids are going through similar motions (selling the
house to free up cash).

My plan?

* Save at least 35% of my net pay every year. Already done, shooting for 40% now. Goal is 50% (at current income level/standard of living). Credit is a tool that I do use to my advantage at times, but it's rare. Most everything is cash, including major purchases (i.e. car).

* Develop something to provide a 2nd income stream of at least $850/mo that only can go into savings. That's real money over the long haul.

* Minimize purchases of durable goods. I expect 15 years out of the car (only buy a car that makes you smile every time you get in it). My furniture will outlive me. I get 5-ish years out of clothing (and don't own much). Electronics either need to last 10+ years or have high resale value.

* Plan to change careers in 17-20 years, especially if there's tangible demand in a new field. Mostly since I expect to be bored. Barring that, time to get a "real" engineering degree.

~~~
swolchok
> slick abstractions will be developed in the next 25 years.

Don't bet on it. There are tons of failed examples of attempts to enable plug
and play programming (connecting pre-made components together), and it never
scales. The devil is in the details.

~~~
MrFoof
Don't get me wrong. I agree with this. By and large it's still a pipe dream,
but some dreams do come true. With that in mind, I won't bank on the fact that
something won't materialize that lowers the barriers a bit.

Granted, more complex problems will always require more complex solutions. I
don't see anything like this changing where I work (quantitative finance), but
it'd be more of a concern for those working at J-Random Cardboard Box Company.

~~~
kungfooey
One could argue that this has already happened to some extent (where the
domain model is commonly known and well explored: blogs, ecommerce) via
packaged solutions and web frameworks.

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staunch
This isn't FU money. FU money means you're set for life. (Maybe >$5M in semi-
liquid assets in the US or whatever).

Two outstanding mortgages and a single stream of revenue (that will certainly
diminish over time) is hardly better off than just having a high paying
corporate job where you don't have to go into the office very often.

~~~
leelin
Maybe the perception of a huge safety net is more important than the actual
assets.

The common theme among all definitions of FU money seems to be freedom from
fearing we'll go hungry and relief from risk averse behavior like holding on
to an unfulfilling job.

Is FU money more satisfying when we've earned it ourselves rather than winning
it (inheritance, lottery, marriage, fraud)?

~~~
c1sc0
"freedom from fearing we'll go hungry and relief from risk averse behavior
like holding on to an unfulfilling job" By that definition being on
unemployment in one of the friendly european social security states qualifies.
Also makes me wonder why not more startups try to bootstrap it at the expense
of father state, could work in Europe at least.

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mcantor
Is camarades.com the project you referred to that you founded in 1995 and now
produces a "FYM cashflow" for you?

~~~
jacquesm
Yep. It's been a steady producer for as long as I've had it with two major
hickups, the first (of course) the .com crash, the second the death of iBill.

It has survived both, the first by changing from an advertising driven model
to a subscription model, the second because I'm in close contact with someone
that owns and operates and IPSP so I could switch on a moments notice.

I probably aged a couple of years for each of those.

Technically the period between '95 and '98 (the pre-camarades days) was
license driven, I've written about that elsewhere:
[http://jacquesmattheij.com/content/story-behind-wwcom-
camara...](http://jacquesmattheij.com/content/story-behind-wwcom-camaradescom)

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mattmaroon
I love how most of the opinions about how FU money changes your life start off
with "technically I don't have FU money."

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mikecane
>>>able to spend days on end just reading, and in general being unproductive.

I disagree that reading is being unproductive. You want to see what
unproductive is really like, track down and watch an hour of "Maury" or "The
Jerry Springer Show" on TV.

~~~
megablast
I disagree with that, unless you are reading something very specific, and for
short periods of time. Reading can so easily become something that takes up a
lot of time, no different to tv. And if you are not creating, then you are not
being a producer, you are being a consumer.

~~~
mikecane
>>>And if you are not creating, then you are not being a producer, you are
being a consumer.

Creating from what? What well of knowledge do you have to dip into if your
mind hasn't been stocked by reading first? And if all you do is read for a
goal, then you are cheating yourself.

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shin_lao
_I don't like debt, I never did and I'd rather be completely debt free, but
the business comes first, private life second. I have a pretty thick wall
between the two and most of the money stays on the business side._

I can't stress enough how this is a good business advice.

Never mix up business money and your money.

You'll eventually be able to pay yourself well when business does well. Don't
take too much from it at the beginning. Cash flow is paramount to success.

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ulfurk
I loved reading your story. This is were I wish and strive to be and funnily
enough your life sounds about exactly the way I hope mine can be some day.

I think I might even use your article as a reference in future because oddly
enough a lot of people don't seem to quite get what I'm talking about when I
try to tell them what me dream is. "What, not have a job? How? What would you
do? You have to work" etc. etc.

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mmaunder
There's no such thing. You're always going to have to be nice to someone -
even if you're Mel Gibson.

~~~
jacquesm
Agreed, it's a weird term, but since it was used in the original I figure I'd
keep it, but I did add a clarification as to what it means to me.

In fact, the people that have 'fuck you' money (that I know) tend to be pretty
rude to people that are simply trying to make their lives a little easier,
such as people waiting tables or running a store. You can instantly tell from
the way they treat those 'below' them in stature (if there is such a thing
anyway, my grandmother used to say about such people that they smell just the
same on the toilet) whether they're nice or not.

As a rule, if people are rude to others that are in a 'lesser' position to
them then you can do without them just fine.

~~~
wizard_2
Meet some more people. I've saved 20+% for about 5 years now, I have over a
year of FU money, and probably closer to 3 or 4 if I actually payed closer
attention to my spending and cut back. I'm not rich, I just save before I
spend and prolong the time before I give any of my money away (purchases,
bills etc - its my money!)

It hasn't affected me much, I still work, I'm still kind to strangers and
waitresses. You're rule is good, but something tells me those people you know
would be the same in any situation.

~~~
jacquesm
> but something tells me those people you know would be the same in any
> situation.

That's exactly why the rule is good, it allows you to pick out people like
that. In other situations they will be the same (they can't help it) but it
won't stand out so much.

Some people try to impress others by bossing people around or showing they can
afford to be rude, for me that's a total turn-off.

The really interesting thing here is that the really wealthy are usually quite
modest (at least, those that I've met, which is not a very large sample).

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vaksel
what was the fancy car? are we talking about something like a Ferrari? or
something more like a BMW M3?

~~~
joshu
Don't knock the M3; funnest thing I've ever driven.

~~~
vaksel
wasn't knocking it, personally I think that the M and the AMG models are some
of the best options if you like to be low key.

Just debadge them, and 99% of people won't know that you have the high end
version.

Audi S line is kinda good too, but they really dropped the ball this
generation. The S4/S5 are barely making enough power to compete with the 335i.
The upcoming RS5 should fix that, but Audi is probably going to charge so much
for those, that the $60K M3 will look like a bargain by comparison.

~~~
kkshin
Dude, the S line hasn't been meant to compete with M/AMG models for the last
couple iterations. The S4 is a direct competitor to the 335i and is marketed
as such and is priced much lower than either the C63 or the M3. The RS line of
cars are the ones designed to directly compete with AMG/M.

~~~
joshu
I thought they weren't shipping the RS now...

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JoeAltmaier
The level that is FYM is a sliding scale. See
<http://yourmoneyoryourlife.info/>

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revoltingx
I think the problem is that people like junk in their house. I don't. My 'fuck
you' money is $800 every two weeks. I pay $600 a month. I don't buy much, I
spend a lot of time with my girlfriend. We go to the beach, park, etc. I spend
my free time programming the game I always wanted. It's great.

~~~
btilly
Have kids. That will reset your standards pretty quickly.

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TGJ
Call me what ever you want, but I made it 3 lines into the article before I
closed the tab and moved on. There's no need for that language. There is no
need for that attitude. Grow up people.

~~~
Maven911
I love it how TGJ gets downvoted for no apparent reason, other then
respectfully stating his opinion on using foul words for every day language

~~~
chc
Respectfully stating his opinion? What post were you reading? He got downvoted
for an uninformative comment that had essentially no content besides insulting
Jacques by saying he has an "attitude" and needs to "grow up" — just because
Jacques was responding to a question that used a term that offends TGJ's
personal sensibilities.

~~~
TGJ
You are right of course, I did not contribute much else besides critique. What
I should have asked instead is, is this the best that people have to offer? FU
money.

Emergency fund not good enough? Savings plan too serious? I'm going fishing
too thoughtful? The best that an essay has to offer on setting aside money for
situations unforeseen is to reference it by FU money? Newsflash, its called a
savings plan, retirement fund, IRA, mutual funds, mattress money. It's been
done before and the only difference is calling it something vulgar in order to
connect with the new generation of people. Anyone seen Idiocracy? That's where
it's heading.

And to think. "I'm" the one insulting Jacques. Unbelievable.

~~~
rewind
The whole reason it's called "fuck you money" is because if you don't want to
do anything... for anyone... at any time... or if anyone you're working for or
with pisses you off for any reason... you can ALWAYS say "fuck you" and have
no issue about cash. You can say "fuck you" to every person who ever wants to
give you a penny for the rest of your life and you are still fine. It's a
figure of speech, and that's where it came from. What you describe is NOT
"fuck you money". You can go YOUR ENTIRE LIFE without seeing A SINGLE PENNY OF
INCOME other than your "fuck you money". That's what it is. I can't think of
any terms that describes it that way, and definitely not any of the examples
you gave.

The tone in both of your responses is way worse than the thing you're taking
issue with. Your ignorance just makes it worse.

~~~
TGJ
It's cool. I understand. I never expected anything else. Standards are not
spread, they are just upheld.

