
Takedown (1995) - brudgers
http://www.takedown.com/
======
Simulacra
I grew up as a huge Mitnick fan, and I still am. He was vilified and used as
the poster boy for all computer hackers, phreakers, and the lot - unfairly I
think. Takedown was one of the most dry and dull books I've ever read, and
John Markoff should be ashamed of himself. Read Mitnick's book, Ghost in the
Wires. So much better.

~~~
EvanAnderson
I can't speak to "Ghost in the Wires", however a book that contemporaneous to
"Takedown" that does a better job, I think, is "The Fugitive Game", by
Johnathan Littman: [https://www.amazon.com/Fugitive-Game-Online-Kevin-
Mitnick/dp...](https://www.amazon.com/Fugitive-Game-Online-Kevin-
Mitnick/dp/0316528692)

~~~
spc476
I've read all three (_Ghost in the Wires_, _Takedown_ and _The Fugitive Game_)
and all three were interesting in their own way. The first was from Mitnick's
view, the second from the FBI/Shimomura's point of view (and man, does
Shimonura come across as a jerk). The last is really from neither (or both)
but does tend to fill in details not mentioned by the prior two.

~~~
Simulacra
Ah, I've not heard of The Fugitive Game. I will read it. It's not that I think
Shimomura is a bad guy or anything, it's just...the writing is very dry for
me.

~~~
clamprecht
I was in prison at the same time Mitnick was (but not at the same prison), and
in about 1997, Justin Petersen (Agent Steal) showed up at the prison I was at,
and we got to know each other well. He's one of the other main figures in The
Fugitive Game, and he said this book was probably the most accurate of the
several books about the Mitnick/Poulsen/Petersen story. I read the book in
prison one night and I couldn't put it down until I finished it.

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jason_slack
Thanks, this is nostalgic. I remember reading this several times back around
1996. Mitnick felt like a hero to me back then.

~~~
watwut
To me too in a way. It all looked cool. It was only later then I started to
see the way we valorize bad actors as a bad thing about culture. Someone who
does bad things is automatically treated as smarter then someone who has good
ethics and cares about his impact on others.

~~~
tptacek
I'm not even "why idealize hackers". I remember being a teenager too. I'm
saying, why _Mitnick_? What about his M.O. was ever interesting?

~~~
Simulacra
Because of how unjustly he was treated. Held for 5 years without trail, most
of that in solitary confinement, because the government thought if he got to a
phone he could launch nuclear weapons (seriously). Mitnick was in it for the
knowledge, and exploration, not financial gain, not destruction, or anything
like the script kiddies of today.

~~~
tptacek
He seems like more or less the archetype of the modern script kid (he was
using other people's exploits --- and in an era where you could exploit a lot
of vulnerabilities with simple shell scripts, no less). What makes you think
otherwise? How much do you know about his motives?

 _a little later:_

When talking about his sentence, it's useful to compare it to that of Lewis
DePayne, his accomplice. They're both charged with essentially the same
crimes. But DePayne isn't going on a hacking spree while on supervised
release, and gets probation.

~~~
Fnoord
> He seems like more or less the archetype of the modern script kid (he was
> using other people's exploits --- and in an era where you could exploit a
> lot of vulnerabilities with simple shell scripts, no less). What makes you
> think otherwise?

"In his 2002 book, The Art of Deception, Mitnick states that he compromised
computers solely by using passwords and codes that he gained by social
engineering. He claims he did not use software programs or hacking tools for
cracking passwords or otherwise exploiting computer or phone security." [1]

> When talking about his sentence, it's useful to compare it to that of Lewis
> DePayne, his accomplice. They're both charged with essentially the same
> crimes. But DePayne isn't going on a hacking spree while on supervised
> release, and gets probation.

You mean he didn't get caught, and DePayne went screwing with Mitnick's
girlfriend.

[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kevin_Mitnick](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kevin_Mitnick)

~~~
tptacek
Maybe it's just because I was in this field during the events we're talking
about (I got an early start!) but: I don't see how you can be at all familiar
with the Mitnick/Shimomura story and think that he didn't use hacking tools.
That breakin was famous mostly for introducing the wider world to the concept
of TCP sequence number prediction. Unless you think he socially engineered
Shimomura's TCP stack.

Kevin Mitnick absolutely did use other people's tools.

I don't know what your last sentence means. DePayne was charged as an
accomplice, convicted, and given probation. He obviously did "get caught".

~~~
scottyelich
Thomas --

These people weren't there and only know what they have read or what has been
glamorized. Mitnick had (has?) an evil streak and is in no way some poor
little kid who got in over his head. He know what he was doing (in terms of
his desire to cause harm) and he got off it. Lots of people had "fun" \-- but
very few seemed to be truly nasty human beings.

It's far better to create and help than it is to destroy and harm.

Hell, even u4ea popped up recently and doesn't seem like he's held a grudge
for 20+ years -- think others can do or say the same?

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hal9000xp
I recommend to watch movie based on Kevin Mitnick story:

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Track_Down](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Track_Down)

I couldn't say it's very accurate story but it's still fun to watch.

~~~
partycoder
99% of it never happened and what actually "happened" was over-dramatized.

They exaggerated so much that Mitnick was sent to a maximum security jail.

~~~
tptacek
He served his sentence in FCI Lompoc, which is where his lawyers asked that he
be incarcerated.

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Fnoord
For a historic account of US phreaking (not Mitnick-specific), check out the
book "Exploding the Phone: The Untold Story of the Teenagers and Outlaws who
Hacked Ma Bell". Its worth as much as its long title. It even contains a
historic account of the US (and international) phone system and how the
monopolies came around. I read it because it was all just before my time (I'm
mid 30s now). People who were blind phreaking by whistling. Insane!

(Mitnick-specific I can also recommend the docu Freedom Downtime and the book
Ghost in the Wires but I've seen both already covered in other posts.)

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codegeek
"webmaster@takedown.com"

Couldn't be more 90s than this, hah.

~~~
ralphc
Challenge accepted. [http://www.takedown.com/sun-
thanks.html](http://www.takedown.com/sun-thanks.html) "This site is running on
two SPARCstation 20 Model 152 workstations, provided by Sun Microsystems."

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lern_too_spel
I don't get the Mitnick worship. He was an unrepentant script kiddie, and when
he harrassed Shimomura, a legitimate genius ([https://www.quora.com/Would-
someone-with-an-IQ-of-170-easily...](https://www.quora.com/Would-someone-with-
an-IQ-of-170-easily-be-a-top-student-in-places-like-MIT-Caltech-etc)), he got
what was coming.

~~~
jm__87
While I'm sure Shimomura is a genius, however you define that, I can't help
but roll my eyes whenever I see another post about IQ on Quora. If IQ truly
even measured raw intelligence, that doesn't get you very far in life. To do
anything with that intelligence you need to put in a lot of effort and this
requires things like time management, stress management, discipline, focus and
drive. I'd rather bet on the person who is high in those 5 attributes I just
mentioned but with an average IQ over someone with high IQ but who is only
average on those 5 attributes.

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lloydde
[http://www.freedomdowntime.com/](http://www.freedomdowntime.com/) “A feature
length documentary about the Free Kevin movement and the hacker world.”

John Markoff sensationalized events and villified Kevin Mitnick.

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sigfubar
It's a shame that all these years later nobody else knows who JSZ is.

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paulpauper
he met his match, that's for sure

