
Stalking Your Friends with Facebook Messenger - dvdyzag
https://medium.com/@arankhanna/stalking-your-friends-with-facebook-messenger-9da8820bd27d
======
kanche
The location you share with your friend is dead accurate, not an area but the
exact gps point in map. I did not realize I was sharing location when the
feature was first announced -- told a friend I am just five minutes away from
his house: he replied no you aren't -- found this feature and switched it off
for good at that moment, it's intimidating.

~~~
nodata
Or maybe not lie?

~~~
hiamnew
Small lies like that are a huge part of everyday communications. No one should
feel overly guilty about them and we need to be able to make them. They can be
a kind of courtesy.

~~~
dmak
While I do agree with being able to make small lies, but why would you tell
someone whose waiting for you that you are 5 minutes away if you are clearly
not. Maybe it's just me, but when someone says 5 minutes, I don't expect 10,
15, or 30. I expect 5 minutes. This is especially true in Asian cultures.

~~~
personlurking
One of the worst offenders is Brazil. When living there, it was common to hear
"I'm on my way" (to an agreed meeting point at a specific time) but that could
mean they actually are on their way or that they've just got up from the couch
and will go take a shower, choose what to wear, maybe have a bite to eat and
then think about transportation.

Knowing this, the trick was either to not take specific times seriously or to
give a fake meeting time (earlier than the actual one) so the person gets
there on time.

~~~
at-fates-hands
When I was in college, my Native American roommate introduced to "native time"
which is the same as you related it while you were in Brazil.

If he had no set time to meet, he'd say he would be there around "native o'
clock" which meant he would be there at the time +/\- 30-45 minutes. If we
agreed to a specific time, he would be there on time. It really helped me and
I learned a lot about how Native American culture operated while we were
roommates.

------
orthoganol
I find it hard to grasp why any intelligent individual who knows what goes on
with Facebook would still voluntarily remain on Facebook.

"Ah but the social ostracization!", seemingly the main reason why otherwise
intelligent, informed people do stay on Facebook, just doesn't hold up
anymore, as too many cool, socially active 20-somethings I know or are
acquainted with have moved off of Facebook, mostly in last 1-2 years. Even if
you're stuck in a gossipy friend group that would "severely judge you" for
leaving Facebook, which is more likely in your own head than in reality, then
that's probably a sign you need to find more down to earth friends.

~~~
darklajid
That's a rather harsh argument and we could (not trying to derail this)
proceed and say the same thing about people that use Google products, Twitter,
WhatsApp, 'the cloud' etc. - and in the end we'll finally agree with Stallman.

I don't have a Facebook account and have to admit that I never truly
understood the benefit, the appeal. It seemed full of ads, games, random
pictures and without structure - i.e. you might read about people ranting
about the current soccer game (I hate that), but miss an important update from
a close friend.

Plus, as soon as email isn't a suitable format to exchange information, I have
the impression that the communication is either too broad (shout to the
public) or trivial (one liners about nonsense). I don't get it.

I DO get the network effect though. So while I agree with you that the 'why'
might be hard to grasp, I don't like the stab at people's intellect. It
doesn't matter if an individual is intelligent or not - not using a service
that all your peers decided on using is hard.

Your last line about being severely judged by friends especially doesn't sit
well with me.

For one, people might not judge you - they just might communicate less with
you, forget you at times (because you're the one person that needs a mail or a
text message or whatever).

And then there's the ridiculous 'find different friends' part. Seriously…

~~~
lmm
> Plus, as soon as email isn't a suitable format to exchange information, I
> have the impression that the communication is either too broad (shout to the
> public) or trivial (one liners about nonsense). I don't get it.

What do you do when you want to organize a party/group trip to a concert/etc.
and invite several people?

* Email and reply-all? This means you annoy people who can't make it (they keep seeing all the replies), and people who are added to the list have to be re-added several times as people reply-all to old messages and leave them out.

* Create a mailman list for this specific event and require people to unsubscribe/resubscribe? That's a lot of overhead, and the UI is awful.

* Set up a website/blog for this one event? Even more overhead.

And none of the above approaches have decent calendaring integration - you can
attach a .ics to an email but it's still a very manual process.

~~~
psykovsky
Maybe someone should do a startup with a service like that. It could be called
Meetup.com or something.

~~~
thoth
I've had 3 or 4 Meetup groups fold and migrate to Facebook, because Facebook
offers basically the same features and some nice extras:

allows private/hidden groups (invite only; Meetup can hide the memberlist and
require approval to join but the group existence is still searchable)

free (Meetup currently charges ~$70 for 6 months; source: I'm an organizer for
a Meetup group and that's our semi-annual bill. I'm not sure if the scale
slides based on membership numbers. I can't find the billing email for the
exact number at the moment.)

While I do like Meetup and still use it, using Facebook for small group
organization also makes sense.

~~~
pmlnr
maybe, but just maybe, paying cash is better than paying with every
information available on your phone.

~~~
thoth
Phone? I didn't mention a phone; both Facebook and Meetup are entirely usable
via their websites.

We have about 40-50 active and semi-active members (on Meetup), hold a
fundraiser, and yet the organizers still have to chip in to make up the
inevitable shortfall.

Whether or not to use Facebook (or Meetup for that matter) is something
everybody gets to decide for themselves and preaching about what they should
do is silly.

------
michaelmior
> the message locations have more than 5 decimal places of precision, making
> it possible to pinpoint the sender’s location to less than a meter.

Precision is not the same as accuracy. Although the reported values may have 5
decimal places of precision, I find my location is often a bit off.

~~~
userbinator
Indeed. ~2m is the limit of accuracy for a typical smartphone GPS - I've
gotten down to 1.3m when standing in an open area for >10 minutes with 12
satellites in view, but that's an exceptional case.

In practice, accuracy will be in the 5-10m range.

It doesn't make it any less creepy though... which then begs the question of
how the number of people wanting to send their location would change with how
"approximate" of a location (i.e. rounding to some radius) they're sending.
Nearest 100m? 500m? 10km? 100km? State? Country? Continent? ... _Planet_? I
would probably be fine with the last one, but no more than that for anyone I
don't know well.

~~~
kuschku
My phone – which combines GPS with GLONASS – usually gets about 40m accuracy
with just GPS, but with combined GPS and GLONASS I have about 24 satellites in
view, even in buildings, getting better than 1m precision.

~~~
jfaat
In fact, the vast majority of modern smartphones support GLONASS.

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_smartphones_supporting_...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_smartphones_supporting_GLONASS_navigation)

~~~
kuschku
It makes sense, north of 50°N GPS accuracy goes quickly down, as most of its
satellites’ orbits are optimized for coverage over the equator.

------
CookieMon
I use this facebook app now:
[http://i.imgur.com/Iyd43n6.png](http://i.imgur.com/Iyd43n6.png) (Android)

It's either a well written FB app, or a no-permissions jail around Facebook's
own hybrid-app/mobile-site. GPS no longer turns on, and messaging works for
me.

~~~
FreakyT
I've found that just running Facebook's mobile site in Chrome works pretty
well for most purposes.

~~~
cushychicken
I've been doing that since I found out they were requiring access to text
messages. One year later and I have zero regrets.

~~~
FreakyT
It's ridiculous how many completely irrelevant permissions they demand!

Facebook's laundry list of permissions is perhaps the best example of how
Android's permission system is completely broken.

~~~
c22
I think Android's permission system works great. I saw Facebook's list of
required permissions, considered whether these functions were necessary to
provide the service I needed and whether I trusted Facebook to manage them for
me, then declined to install the app.

------
kosei
I'm not sure what value add this serves as an opt-out solution rather than
opt-in. For people who have a strong desire to show their location, sure. But
what possible reason could Facebook have to make this readily accessible to
anyone you chat with on an opt-out only basis?

~~~
rtpg
"where are you?" "when will you show up?" "you back home yet?"

A lot of these things are questions I routinely get/ask in things like
messenger. People with location on usually help us to coordinate things and
the like.

~~~
hug
Google Hangouts solves this problem in a much more sane way -- Whenever my
girlfriend sends me "where are you?" on hangouts, the application prompts me
to send a map pin.

This solution probably isn't particularly novel, but it's probably better than
carte blanche location access, in the opinion of most people.

~~~
JeremyNT
Google also provides opt-in location tracking via Google+ [0]. You specify who
can view your location, and whether it is fine (GPS coordinates) or course
(city-level).

My wife and I use this service and find it quite useful - it seems like a much
more sane way to handle location sharing than to simply attach your exact
location to every message you send by default.

Sadly, since it's buried in Google+, most people are probably unaware of it.

[0]
[https://support.google.com/plus/answer/2998354?hl=en](https://support.google.com/plus/answer/2998354?hl=en)

~~~
jgroszko
Yeah, this was supposed to be the replacement for Latitude right? You have to
know exactly where it is in the app though to find it, it's really not very
discoverable

------
calcsam
This is really, really bad for people in abusive relationships.

~~~
onewaystreet
Being in an abusive relationship is bad for people.

~~~
Flimm
Is my relationship with Facebook an abusive relationship? Only tongue-in-
cheek.

~~~
beagle3
Yes, it is. Maybe not physically abusive, but definitely emotionally and
trust-ly abusive.

You think you are in a relationship with facebook, but facebook is secretly
also in a relationship with all kinds of three letter agencies, state actors
and advertisers - and tells them everything you told facebook.

~~~
corobo
If you know it and can prove it, it's not a secret. Advertisers definitely not
secretly, you can easily see what information advertisers see at
facebook.com/ads

Facebook only knows what you are telling it, maybe don't announce your next
bank robbery on your status update and you'll be alright

~~~
morganvachon
> Facebook only knows what you are telling it, maybe don't announce your next
> bank robbery on your status update and you'll be alright

Right, because only criminals have something to hide. Maybe it's my
generation, but I don't automatically trust Facebook (or the government for
that matter, hello IRS) with the safety and security of my personal
information. There are plenty of bad actors out there who can take my
perfectly innocent movements and information and either ruin my life for the
hell of it, or steal my identity and profit from it.

~~~
corobo
That was my point made with an exaggerated example. If you don't want Facebook
knowing where you work, where you went to school, etc - Don't give Facebook
that information.

If that means you don't want to give Facebook anything at all, you're allowed
to do that too. Don't register an account, block their domains with your hosts
file, block their networks with your firewall.

~~~
morganvachon
I think it was a hostile way to make your point, that's what I was calling
out. You basically said "if you have something to hide, you're a criminal".
There are better ways to get your point across.

~~~
corobo
Fair comment, I'll take that on board when making future points

------
zatkin
Hopefully Facebook doesn't treat you differently based on this article. Good
luck with your internship!

~~~
Loque
I'd say he is an awesome hire! Interested and able, also with seemingly a good
understand of privacy and social location data. Handling GEO data for
individuals is very very tricky.

------
canvia
iPhones have something very similar enabled by default as well:
[http://www.zdnet.com/article/four-privacy-settings-you-
shoul...](http://www.zdnet.com/article/four-privacy-settings-you-should-
enable-in-ios-7-immediately/)

------
ekianjo
The joy of mobile apps, pulling as much permissions as possible during
install, and abusing of them whenever you run them. When I see this the debate
between native apps and web apps is over, and it does not end with native apps
winning.

~~~
malka
the joy of Android Mobile apps. I dislike Apple for many reasons, but the
permission model on iOS is a lot saner than on Android.

~~~
spacemanmatt
You still end up giving away your privacy just the same. I'm not sure how
that's different.

------
Tinned_Tuna
A minor nit-pick, most GPS chips will happily give out a position as a best-
effort.

The actual accuracy of the measurement is given by the dilution of position
(DOP), which does not appear to be in the data shown in the blog post.

This would undermine their ability to pin-point their location to within a
meter, as the DOP could be very high; especially in areas with lots of tall
buildings or other problematic environments.

From the comparisons, it looks like the author's GPS is getting a very low DOP
(i.e. a good, clean signal from a constellation of >= 5 GPS satellites).

Either way -- still glad I don't use FaceBook, and an interesting find!

~~~
bibinou
The app does not only uses GPS, it uses an underlying framework that gather
position from GPS and other sources like Wifi location databases, which are
much more precise.

------
maxmouchet
Nice extension. I did a similar project to plot conversations on Google Earth
when I realized how much location information was available:
[https://github.com/maxmouchet/messenger-to-
earth](https://github.com/maxmouchet/messenger-to-earth)

------
wyc
You can also see if your friends are currently active using their browser,
mobile device, or are inactive. These data could be used to infer usage rates
over time. It might not sound that intrusive, but the tone is very different
if you were to graph these same data per friend over, e.g., a month.

------
pmlnr
Get your loved ones off Facebook from Salim Virani
[http://saintsal.com/facebook/](http://saintsal.com/facebook/)

"I've been a big Facebook supporter - one of the first users in my social
group who championed what a great way it was to stay in touch, way back in
2006. I got my mum and brothers on it, and around 20 other people. I've even
taught Facebook marketing in one of the UK's biggest tech education projects,
Digital Business Academy. I'm a techie and a marketer -- so I can see the
implications -- and until now, they hadn't worried me. I've been pretty
dismissive towards people who hesitate with privacy concerns. [...] With this
latest privacy change on January 30th, I'm scared."

------
butwhy
Feature request: auto-click-on every conversation you've had in messenger when
you navigate to /messages so you don't need to do it manually. Considering it
doesn't persist past a reload...

~~~
praseodym
There's a setting in Messenger to disable it for all chats. And on iOS, just
disable location services for Messenger.

~~~
butwhy
I don't think you understand my comment. I don't want to disable it.

------
StavrosK
Hmm, where do you see this? I don't use Messenger, but many of my friends do,
and I've never seen this. Is it only for Messenger-to-Messenger chats?

~~~
mod
I couldn't get a screenshot with the map popped-up, but if you go to "see all"
on the web, you can get a full-screen view with these little location pins.
Hovering over them gives you a map.

[http://imgur.com/vloxbkI](http://imgur.com/vloxbkI)

~~~
StavrosK
Ah, thank you, these weren't in the small chat windows. Clicking on them gives
you a full, browsable map, as well.

------
Havoc
Refused to install messenger from the start. Facebook is a sketchy company (in
my opinion) & I'm fast starting to think the same of Google.

------
dep_b
You cannot only detect with 90% accuracy where they are but also with 90%
accuracy that they're running Android.

------
govilk
intimidating..told a few friends about their locations and got unfriended. It
explains how much people are scared about their daily privacy information.

~~~
driverdan
If they "unfriended" you for that they weren't really friends anyway.

------
deevus
You are the product.

~~~
icebraining
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Platitude](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Platitude)

~~~
spacemanmatt
A platitude is meaningless. GP is actually a true statement about using
FaceBook.

~~~
spacemanmatt
You don't have to agree with it. It's a commonly part of the dictionary
definition.

------
rand334
And then you remember where Facebook's initial funding sources came from....

~~~
janpieterz
Which funding do you mean? They seem to be quite normal, open companies and
people with interest in these kind of startups. For people interested in this
[1].

[1]
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Facebook#Initial_fun...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Facebook#Initial_funding)

~~~
personlurking
I believe rand334 is referring to the video below, regarding US government
connections.

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DIGdWsxHJlM](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DIGdWsxHJlM)

~~~
janpieterz
Those connections show a blurring of the lines between government and
corporations, which we all know exist, but don't really seem to indicate an
actual active connection currently exists (on that level).

It seems to be taking the radical conservative viewpoint of Thiel as granted,
while those are at best part of his viewpoint. Also Thiel is supposed to be
part of the board of a radical group, but the text was hard to hear (Vanguard
VAC) is what I could come up with), while I could find no such connection on
the internet.

In-Q-Tel itself has a lot of controversy, but again, controversy doesn't imply
any truth. There have been In-Q-Tel companies that have worked perfectly fine
and we don't see as anything bad, for example Keyhole.

The channel itself also doesn't breathe neutrality to me, though that doesn't
mean I'd take their claims for not true, it does indicate some more research
from them would have been nice. It seems to be more based on loose connections
instead of proven active collaborations.

~~~
rand334
What exactly do you think is good, okay, or normal about In-Q-Tel, the CIA's
VC firm, having connections to the world's most popular social network...
blows my mind.

