
Chloroquine phosphate has shown apparent efficacy in treating Covid-19 - weekay
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/32074550/
======
shoyer
For a slightly more balanced perspective, try this paper:
[https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S016635422...](https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0166354220301145):

Highlights from that paper (all of which look quite reasonable to me, as a
non-expert):

• In vitro data suggest that chloroquine inhibits SARS Cov-2 replication.

• In past research, chloroquine has shown in vitro activity against many
different viruses, but no benefit in animal models.

• Chloroquine has been proposed several times for the treatment of acute viral
diseases in humans without success.

• The outcomes of some current clinical trials of chloroquine in China have
been announced, without access to the data.

• Peer review of the results and an independent assessment of the potential
benefit for patients are essential.

~~~
rscho
Thank you for this reasonable view. Those last few days, I have seen a great
many people here piling on chloroquine and aggressively promoting it to
others. Those people were sometimes alledged scientists. This is worrying.
Some countries have it in their emergency guidelines, yes. But is it beyond
reasonable doubt that quinine derivatives are useful in humans? No. Absolutely
not.

People are incredibly prompt to jump in on unproven suggestions during a
crisis, while at the same time shitting on standard evidence-based medical
care all year long. Go figure...

A small-sized chinese study with unreleased data? Color me skeptical.

~~~
3fe9a03ccd14ca5
“Some countries” is of course South Korea, which has had one of the lowest
mortality rates of covid19.

1\.
[http://m.koreabiomed.com/news/articleView.html?idxno=7428](http://m.koreabiomed.com/news/articleView.html?idxno=7428)

~~~
rscho
And of course, you provide evidence of a causal link to quinine derivatives.
This is ridiculous.

If you really knew the scientific state of clinical research, you would be far
more skeptical.

~~~
tim333
That sort of data while it doesn't prove hydroxychloroquine did it, it does
give some hope. If it was the other way that they - that they'd treated
everyone with that and had a bad death rate then that would pretty much prove
it didn't work.

Another interesting bit of data along those lines is the Chinese added
chloroquine to their their treatment guidelines on feb 19th and their death
rate dropped about 3 or 4x shortly after [https://neutron-assets.s3-ap-
southeast-2.amazonaws.com/img/c...](https://neutron-assets.s3-ap-
southeast-2.amazonaws.com/img/corona/new_deaths_-_china-09032020080620.png)

~~~
rscho
I'm all for it if it works. But the diversity of practices and opinions among
specialists shows that any current advice is just that: expert opinion. Here,
we're doing kaletra. 100 kms from here, they're doing hydroxychloroquine.I
understand the desperation, but I don't think it's for healthy citizens to
pile up egoistically on ressources that _might_ be more useful elsewhere.

From experience, expert opinion situations are not too encouraging. But let's
hope we're lucky this time.

Now if you'll excuse me, I'll be off intubating highly contagious cases
without appropriate protection equipment if you're looking for me in the
coming days. Personally, I'm hoping that the disease preferentially targets
politicians and health ministers #-(

------
baybal2
> • The outcomes of some current clinical trials of chloroquine in China have
> been announced, without access to the data.

Shameless tangent, China has just booted its most competent respiratory
disease epidemiologist from heading epidemic control committee for not backing
Xi Jinping's "herbal remedies"

[https://www.taiwannews.com.tw/en/news/3895540](https://www.taiwannews.com.tw/en/news/3895540)

~~~
dakom
why does a search lead me to an article with the exact opposite story?
[http://www.china.org.cn/china/2020-02/19/content_75720773.ht...](http://www.china.org.cn/china/2020-02/19/content_75720773.htm)

~~~
baybal2
It's quite tortuously contorted. He said he was proposing to launch proper
clinical trials for "herbal remedies," dodging a request to give his blessing.

~~~
dakom
So the real story is he proposed doing scientifically valid testing, which
could easily _disprove_ their efficacy - and that somehow turned into "the
experiments give some hope for the treatment of the novel coronavirus" ... due
to a bad English translation?

~~~
baybal2
> ... due to a bad English translation?

Not simply bad, but like a 180⁰ of the original meaning.

Well, there is rich context to this. Chinese mainland media has been for weeks
escalating the "herbal remedies" craze, and Xi somehow managed to insert
himself even there.

Now the media (propaganda ministry) can't back off, because Xi will look like
an idiot if they are to back off and acknowledge how foolish it is.

For Zhong, a man with a known anti-quackery sentiment, not speaking in single
voice with CPC's herbal remedy peddlers, was enough to be seen as somebody not
standing in line.

~~~
netsharc
[https://www.economist.com/leaders/2017/08/31/china-is-
rampin...](https://www.economist.com/leaders/2017/08/31/china-is-ramping-up-
its-promotion-of-its-ancient-medical-arts)

Apparently not just weeks, but for a long time.

Imagine if homeopathy became a point of something the government says we have
to see as cultural/national pride. And is prescribed by doctors/hospitals
because of that, and scientific analysis has to show the results that also
reflect that...

------
Sylamore
I've been watching the videos in this youtube channel today, where the last
couple of videos have talked about this finding :
[https://youtu.be/U7F1cnWup9M](https://youtu.be/U7F1cnWup9M) and
[https://youtu.be/vE4_LsftNKM](https://youtu.be/vE4_LsftNKM)

Basically the goal is to allow zinc to get into a cell, it needs a helper to
get inside the cell (a Zinc Ionophore). Apparently based on the 2nd video,
Hydroxychloroquine is even more effective than Chloroquine. It's really
important to note however that these are lab based findings, not from studies
on patients.

~~~
jbourne007
I looked around and found naturally occurring zinc ionophores:
[https://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/jf5014633](https://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/jf5014633)
Quercetin is present in Red Onions and Epigallocatechin-gallate in green tea.
Don't know if they are as effective etc but there's got to be alternatives to
Chloroquine....

~~~
robocat
I read some links implying that Quercetin was potentially useful against
coronavirus, although they sounded a bit like PR/sales, and site that had
links is down (bad sign?) so I can't find the links now.

Edit: [https://www.macleans.ca/news/canada/a-made-in-canada-
solutio...](https://www.macleans.ca/news/canada/a-made-in-canada-solution-to-
the-coronavirus-outbreak/)

------
babayega2
In Africa when you suffer from Malaria they gradually give you Chloroquine,
Amodiaquine or even Quinine. From my experience, Quinine is the strongest. I
grew up taking those medicines. Man. They knock you out. Your ears are no
longer working the first 3 days of taking Quinine. You lose the sense of
smell. I guess they slow down the Corona 19 virus. My mom has already sent me
Amodiaquine and Quinine here in Italy.

~~~
droopyEyelids
Chloroquine encourages cells to take in zinc, zinc inhibits RdRP, RdRP builds
copies of viruses.

Thats the mechanism that works in test tubes, but not in humans so far.
Pulling Zinc into cells is what determines this hypothetical effect, not to be
confused with whatever has the strongest side effects.

~~~
zackmorris
There are many papers online giving confidence that 50-80 mg zinc (gluconate)
reduces colds by a day or two and 1000-2000+ IU vitamin D3 reduces flu by a
day or two. So while I disagree with your conclusion that Chloroquine won't
work, I wish I could give you 100 points for making the connection between
zinc and RdRP.

Edit: just did a search and your insight led to this study on zinc and
Coronavirus from 2010:

[https://journals.plos.org/plospathogens/article?id=10.1371/j...](https://journals.plos.org/plospathogens/article?id=10.1371/journal.ppat.1001176)

 _Abstract

Increasing the intracellular Zn2+ concentration with zinc-ionophores like
pyrithione (PT) can efficiently impair the replication of a variety of RNA
viruses, including poliovirus and influenza virus. For some viruses this
effect has been attributed to interference with viral polyprotein processing.
In this study we demonstrate that the combination of Zn2+ and PT at low
concentrations (2 µM Zn2+ and 2 µM PT) inhibits the replication of SARS-
coronavirus (SARS-CoV) and equine arteritis virus (EAV) in cell culture. The
RNA synthesis of these two distantly related nidoviruses is catalyzed by an
RNA-dependent RNA polymerase (RdRp), which is the core enzyme of their
multiprotein replication and transcription complex (RTC). Using an activity
assay for RTCs isolated from cells infected with SARS-CoV or EAV—thus
eliminating the need for PT to transport Zn2+ across the plasma membrane—we
show that Zn2+ efficiently inhibits the RNA-synthesizing activity of the RTCs
of both viruses. Enzymatic studies using recombinant RdRps (SARS-CoV nsp12 and
EAV nsp9) purified from E. coli subsequently revealed that Zn2+ directly
inhibited the in vitro activity of both nidovirus polymerases. More
specifically, Zn2+ was found to block the initiation step of EAV RNA
synthesis, whereas in the case of the SARS-CoV RdRp elongation was inhibited
and template binding reduced. By chelating Zn2+ with MgEDTA, the inhibitory
effect of the divalent cation could be reversed, which provides a novel
experimental tool for in vitro studies of the molecular details of nidovirus
replication and transcription._

~~~
droopyEyelids
I didn't make any claim about whether it'd work or not- I stated that so far,
it has only been proven in vitro.

Afraid that means I'll have to subtract 100 points from your tally and add a
demerit for shoddy work during a crisis.

------
blacksqr
South Korea experts recommend anti-HIV, anti-malaria drugs for COVID-19 [1]

Mentioned:

Kaletra, an anti-HIV medication that includes the drugs lopinavir and
ritonavir.

Hydroxychloroquine, sold under the brand name Plaquenil.

[1] [https://www.upi.com/Top_News/World-News/2020/03/12/South-
Kor...](https://www.upi.com/Top_News/World-News/2020/03/12/South-Korea-
experts-recommend-anti-HIV-anti-malaria-drugs-for-COVID-19/6961584012321/)

~~~
jennyyang
According to this verified tweet, Kaletra didn't seem effective (point #5 in
the linked images)

[https://twitter.com/katyw2004/status/1236848300143280128](https://twitter.com/katyw2004/status/1236848300143280128)

verification tweet:
[https://twitter.com/mshah85/status/1237231277251514368](https://twitter.com/mshah85/status/1237231277251514368)

~~~
djrogers
Just lol'd at the concept of a 'verification tweet'... Seriously folks - just
because someone on Twitter sounds authoritative, doesn't mean they are
spouting facts.

------
0xff00ffee
Chloroquine is a really interesting drug because it is derived from quinine
which is one of those "early history medicine man/woman" kinda things
(Quechas) that turned out to be effective for two things: antiviral properties
and great taste.

* It was used for centuries to combat malaria until it recently (~10yrs) became ineffective (I took some in the 80's for a year while working in Central America and had amazing dreams).

* It is the basis many awesome aperitifs: Byrrh, Bonal, [tonic water,] and other herbaceous spirits

If it can be used as an antiviral for COVID-19, well, that would be a really
cool example of an old/ancient medicine still doin' its thing.

~~~
lowdest
More gin and tonic == less coronavirus. Got it. That's some specious logic I
can get behind.

------
herf
Paper's main source seems to be a news briefing in Chinese.

Here's google translate: "We organized more than a dozen hospitals in Beijing,
Guangdong and Hunan provinces to jointly evaluate the safety and effectiveness
of chloroquine phosphate in the treatment of new coronary pneumonia. In the
clinic, we are very sure to see the curative effect, whether it is from the
rate of exacerbation, antipyretic phenomenon or the image improvement time of
the lungs, the negative time and negative rate of viral nucleic acid, and the
shortening of the disease course, and a series of indicators, systematically
Based on comprehensive research, the medication group was better than the
control group. For example, a patient in Beijing was admitted to the hospital
on the 4th day of the onset of disease at the age of 54. One week after taking
the medicine, the nucleic acid turned negative, and all the indicators
improved, meeting the criteria for release and isolation."

"Audio transcript of the news briefing held by the State Council of China on
February 17, 2020. The National Health Commission of the People's Republic of
China.
[http://www.nhc.gov.cn/xcs/yqfkdt/202002/f12a62d10c2a48c6895c...](http://www.nhc.gov.cn/xcs/yqfkdt/202002/f12a62d10c2a48c6895cedf2faea6e1f.shtml)
(accessed February 18, 2020). (in Chinese)"

Third reference in
[https://www.jstage.jst.go.jp/article/bst/advpub/0/advpub_202...](https://www.jstage.jst.go.jp/article/bst/advpub/0/advpub_2020.01047/_pdf/-char/en)

------
Cantbekhan
This is old news by this time. As I commented on previous threads.
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22534339](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22534339)

Yes chloroquine has been shown effective in vitro
([https://www.nature.com/articles/s41422-020-0282-0](https://www.nature.com/articles/s41422-020-0282-0)).
Yes hydroxichloroquine has been shown effective in vitro very recently as well
([https://academic.oup.com/cid/advance-
article/doi/10.1093/cid...](https://academic.oup.com/cid/advance-
article/doi/10.1093/cid/ciaa237/5801998)).

Yes both compounds are already actively being used and approved for use by
Asian and EU countries against Covid19:

Here are the Netherlands treatment guidelines (in Dutch):
[https://lci.rivm.nl/covid-19/bijlage/medicamenteuze-
behandel...](https://lci.rivm.nl/covid-19/bijlage/medicamenteuze-
behandelopties)

Here are the Italy treatment guidelines (in Italian):
[http://www.simit.org/medias/1555-covid19-linee-guida-
trattam...](http://www.simit.org/medias/1555-covid19-linee-guida-
trattamento-01mar.pdf)

How they found out about it:
[https://www.jqknews.com/news/388543-The_novel_coronavirus_pn...](https://www.jqknews.com/news/388543-The_novel_coronavirus_pneumonia_has_short_term_curative_effect_on_the_treatment_of_new_crown_pneumonia.html)

Approval and recommendation of the chinese:
[https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32075365-expert-consensus-
on...](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32075365-expert-consensus-on-
chloroquine-phosphate-for-the-treatment-of-novel-coronavirus-pneumonia/)
[https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32074550-breakthrough-
chloro...](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32074550-breakthrough-chloroquine-
phosphate-has-shown-apparent-efficacy-in-treatment-of-covid-19-associated-
pneumonia-in-clinical-studies/)

I don't think there is much doubt left about it's efficiency at this stage.
Hydroxichloroquine is much safer than chloroquine and it's just a 5 day course
at pretty low dosage (2x400mg on day1 as a charge dose, then 2x200mg for 4
days).

More importantly, the drug is readily available, mass producded and doesn't
cost 300$+/box like lopinavir/ritonavir. This drug isn't also 100%
experimental and probably in the 3 digits rangs like remdesivir.

The only real issue is that with a lot of doctors using it, the temporary
shortage of the drug could be troublesome for many Lupus patients around the
world who depend on Plaquenil for their management.

~~~
singularity2001
Answering just so that I find your comment later

sorry if there is a smarter way to save comments

~~~
rpwverheij
click date / time saying "x days ago". click favorite.

------
tim333
That paper is old and a bit vague. A more recent report is from a trial with
120 patients at Sun Shanxian Memorial Hospital. 110 got better with
chloroquine, the hospital's coronavirus tests showed negative on average 4.4
days after starting treatment.

Report "Expert: Chloroquine Phosphate has a negative time of 4.4 days, faster
than other drugs" (google translate)
[http://news.southcn.com/nfplus/gdjktt/content/2020-03/09/con...](http://news.southcn.com/nfplus/gdjktt/content/2020-03/09/content_190536632.htm)

I posted it on reddit (271 comments)
[https://www.reddit.com/r/COVID19/comments/ffztou/expert_chlo...](https://www.reddit.com/r/COVID19/comments/ffztou/expert_chloroquine_phosphate_has_a_negative_time/)

------
hkt
This seems pretty inconclusive to me; as noted by other posters, we have no
data from some of the trials in China and peer review of the potential patient
benefits hasn't materialised yet. Not trying to be a downer, but..

As an aside, the number of preppers and conspiracy theorists out on HN under
stories like this is awful.

Remember, the world has vast infrastructures (CDC, WHO, NHS and equivalents)
for working out the right course of action in these situations. They are
staffed by professionals who understand how medicine and medical trials work,
and how and when to deploy public health measures. I'm not saying their word
is law, but hanging out on internet forums and then panic buying random stuff
which isn't obviously efficacious off the back of a misunderstanding of the
science is not personally or socially productive. At worst, it harms people in
genuine need and stymies the ability of society to respond.

~~~
sundbry
> random stuff which isn't obviously efficacious off the back of a
> misunderstanding of the science

1) It's not random stuff; there is associated research and a theory of
operation how it counteracts the virus

2) Lacking obviousness? By the time the research is settled, you may be very
sick already.

3) There is no misunderstanding, there is a risk analysis based on the
currently available knowledge. Risk of chloroquine poisoning X probability of
effectiveness X risk of acute viral infection.

4) Crowd-sourcing information has shown to be very effective in other times of
crisis, a viral outbreak is no different.

The internet is not a place for the information police. We share our ideas
here.

------
ustamills
Isn't that the "tonic" in "Gin & Tonic" ?

~~~
_-___________-_
It's an analogue of quinine, which tonic water nowadays may contain varying
(quite small) amounts of, depending on brand etc.

G&Ts almost certainly won't have any effect on your susceptibility to
infection nor your prognosis once infected. But they might help with (or make
worse?) the anxiety associated with the panic.

~~~
khafra
Tonic water can contain up to 83mg/L actual quinine. Three 2L bottles of tonic
water could get you 500mg, a therapeutic dose of quinine. Unfortunately, I
have not found any place that manufacturers note how much quinine is in their
tonic water.

~~~
_-___________-_
Yeah, I remember reading something similar years ago. But I suspect with the
proliferation of "craft tonic water" there may be some "flavours" that don't
contain quinine at all.

And 6L of tonic water is... quite a lot.

~~~
auntienomen
I read somewhere that gin & tonic was invented because they needed the gin to
cover up the taste of the quinine, since the tonic needed to have a _lot_ of
quinine to be effective.

Shudder.

~~~
mnw21cam
As someone who has taken uncoated chloroquine tablets _mumble_ years ago, the
taste is one of the most foul bitter over-riding tastes one will ever
encounter. No amount of sugar mixed in with it took the edge off the taste.
The only thing that did it was when they coated the tablets, preventing the
chloroquine from touching the tongue.

~~~
sudosysgen
A surprising amount of medicines have this incredibly foul taste. I was forced
to take oseltamivir during the H1N1 epidemic, and I had to share a pill once
(two of my siblings needed a half dose). It tasted so incredibly bitter and
just mouth-wrenching

~~~
sterwill
The worst taste experience I ever had was when I accidentally bit down on an
ibuprofen gel cap before swallowing it with a small mouthful of room
temperature coffee (it was all I had at my office desk). Wow... it instantly
numbed the back of my mouth and throat and tasted like volatile chemical
waste. I washed it all down as fast as I could with more coffee but that taste
and tingly sensation stuck around for 20 minutes.

The ibuprofen did its job though.

------
easytiger
[https://factcheck.afp.com/chloroquine-has-not-been-
approved-...](https://factcheck.afp.com/chloroquine-has-not-been-approved-
treatment-covid-19)

Some enterprising Nigerian has apparently been trying to illegally sell it in
the UK at least.

------
known
Chloroquine, a drug mostly used against malaria, was shown in the 2000s to
have some effect on SARS-CoV; in cell-culture studies it both reduces the
virus’s ability to get into cells and its ability to reproduce once inside
them, possibly by altering the acidity of the Golgi apparatus
[http://archive.vn/yfAWD](http://archive.vn/yfAWD)

------
mnm1
Can this be used off label now? Or do we have to wait for our incompetent
bureaucracy again, like with the testing, while ignoring tools that work?

------
mdoval
One more reason to love gin and tonic! I had a feeling this old-time, classic
drink crafted by the British to make malaria prophylaxis quinine more
palatable and fun in colonial times, in India I believe, was a winner. From
the bark of "cinchona" trees in Peru, quinine derivatives, are now showing
some promise to treat SARS Cov-2. This is quite amazing.

------
retinadoc
From the virologist who recognized Chloroquine as an anti-viral in 2006:
[https://medium.com/@savesightmd/an-old-drug-for-the-new-
viru...](https://medium.com/@savesightmd/an-old-drug-for-the-new-
virus-a6fd6a0843bc)

------
bschultz
[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23607047](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23607047)

------
newsbinator
I can't seem to find information on whether Chloroquine would be taken
prophylactically to be effective, or only after diagnosis and symptoms appear.

~~~
tim333
Probably works as a prophylactic. Unproven. I'm actually taking it at the
malarial prophylactic dose (500mg/wk).

There is some info here from a doctor
[https://www.reddit.com/r/medicine/comments/fbfj0r/covid19_pr...](https://www.reddit.com/r/medicine/comments/fbfj0r/covid19_prophylaxis_in_healthcare_workers/)

There is some evidence that hydroxychloroquine may be better as a
prophylactic. Here's medcram talking about it from in vitro results
[https://youtu.be/vE4_LsftNKM?t=192](https://youtu.be/vE4_LsftNKM?t=192)

Re real patients I thought this interesting on lupus patients using
hydroxychloroquine at a hospital in Wuhan:

>In the early stage of the study group, through the clinical analysis of 178
patients with new coronavirus received by the hospital from December 2019, it
was found that none of them was systemic lupus erythematosus. After that, in
the consultation of 80 patients with systemic lupus erythematosus treated by
dermatology department of the hospital, it was found that they were not
infected with new coronavirus pneumonia.
[https://www.jqknews.com/news/388543-The_novel_coronavirus_pn...](https://www.jqknews.com/news/388543-The_novel_coronavirus_pneumonia_has_short_term_curative_effect_on_the_treatment_of_new_crown_pneumonia.html)

Which suggests it may work in real life. Lupus patient get a pretty high dose
but looking at the in vitro stuff it looks like a low dose say 400mg/wk might
work.

There may be a possibility here to save millions of lives - if this does go
full pandemic with 60% global infection, taking say weekly hydroxychloroquine
might reduce the effects to something mild flu rather than ICU death. It seems
to me enough upside to make it worth doing a serious research effort which I
don't think is being done.

~~~
jamesblonde
My wife was tested yesterday - she has fever sympthoms. The first thing I did
was down 500mg of Chloroquine. I am in an at-risk group. Then i took the kids
to our country house. Fingers crossed for her today. 36 hrs after she came
home from work with a fever i am still fever free.

~~~
hackeerTwo
Don't mix it with hydroxychloroqine. They can cause a heart attack when
combined.

~~~
jamesblonde
prolonged qt interval. Yeah.

------
procinct
How long would we expect it to take to find out if this is something that can
widely be used to combat Covid-19?

------
rrggrr
Zinc. Chloroquine provides zinc and ionosphere for absorbtion that likely
stops replicase.

~~~
jshevek
Yes, I was reading about this recently. Another study compared zinc uptake
into the cytosol for various extracellular zinc levels, with and without
chloroquine.

I noticed when looking at the data, that while chloroquine facilitated a
massive uptake a zinc, it was still true that increasing the extracellular
zinc concentration (without chloroquine) still increased the cytosol's zinc
concentration (by a lesser amount).

I promptly ordered zinc supplements. Obviously I'll see a doctor if I have
symptoms, but I'll also hedge my bets.

~~~
beagle3
One of the side effects of zinc overdose is loss of sense of smell, sometimes
permanently. Please research all aspects before use.

~~~
kkarakk
you get prepackaged 25mg tablets of zinc for bodybuilding. most people will
get those and the recommended dosage is one every night.

i don't think anyone except hypochondriacs are in danger of zinc overdose

~~~
beagle3
I was told by a lady behind me in line in the store yesterday (who had taken
10 packs) that she intends to take 1 per day but if she feels bad she’ll take
4 per day until she overcomes the covid.

There is enough stupidity around in normal times, and now is worse.

------
ocean1
Has anyone true evidence that drinking Gin reduces the risk of a Corona
infection

------
tanilama
Let us see how CDC will use this drug and do not make our own conclusions. If
it helps it helps.

~~~
pmorici
Because they did such a great job ramping up testing?

~~~
bluGill
One would hope they have learned a lesson...

------
allovernow
Honestly this is a perfect example of a time when laws are excessively
restrictive. I should have the right to purchase this drug and use it as a
last resort in the case that I or my family are infected.

It's not fair to responsible people who are capable of researching safety and
dosages to have to pay for the ignorance of others. Especially when this drug
is OTC in most of the world. You don't need a medical degree to safely
administer most drugs - and you should have the right to take that risk, even
if that means ignorant people getting hurt or dying.

~~~
lultimouomo
I'm reasonably sure having hospitals run out of it because it was hoarded by
preppers is not a desirable outcome.

~~~
jshevek
Limiting the quantity that can be purchased to a particular address or credit
card or similar restriction can help with this problem.

As can inflating the price (high taxes) for non-doctors who are purchasing
preemptively. If you are sick, go to a doctor and get it at the normal price.
If you are a prepper, pay extra, buy less.

~~~
ethbro
That still causes shortages. It's just increasing the ultimate gray market
resale price.

Looking at potential death puts gray market buyers in a weak negotiating
position.

~~~
roenxi
There is a shortage either way; there hasn't been a change in the amount of
the drug or the number of people who want it in either scenario. If anything,
the price going up will increase production and the shortage will lessen as
fast as the logistics chain can manage.

Basically instead of people choosing where it goes a government
agency/hospital system chooses where it goes. After the CDC testing debacle,
hopefully people understand that giving control to the government isn't a
clear cut win. It is good if people have some control over their own destiny.

~~~
ethbro
You're ignoring the concept of wasted resources.

If I buy a test kit, mask, antiviral cocktail, ICU bed for myself, despite
being unlikely to need it, and there's a shortage of these resources, I've
lessened the sum effectiveness and response.

Personally? I assume the average person is an idiot, where nuanced topics that
elicit emotional responses are concerned.

I'd choose experts doing their best to allocate effectively any day of the
week.

The fact that experts are not perfect in no way bears on their nonetheless
being better than the average person.

~~~
roenxi
But if the experts are imperfect and people are banned from helping themselves
then there really is a problem.

I find it darkly ironic that in the US their centralised control of the
medical system has royally screwed up the ability of people to access test
kits and that is likely to become a rallying point for people who want more
centralised control of the medical system.

If you do buy those things then you can share them with your neighbors.
Someone is bound to want that stuff - a few more community sponsored ICU beds,
masks, test kits and antiviral cocktails would be just what most countries
need.

~~~
ethbro
> _But if the experts are imperfect and people are banned from helping
> themselves then there really is a problem._

Why?

You're comparing apples and oranges.

Perfect isn't a reasonable criteria. More effective than the average person
is.

~~~
roenxi
It wasn't a criteria; it was an observation that a system that allows people
to help themselves in parallel to the experts is better.

The options aren't "experts hold all the power" or "paniced hoarders have all
the power". At the moment, the US has set the dial to experts holding all the
power and badly flubbed the response; the obvious solution is a mix of expert-
and non-expert- control so that when the experts inevitably muck up it isn't
the end of the game.

If people want to allocate a massive % of societies resources to masks, ICU
beds and COVID-19 tests they should be able to. At present, they aren't
allowed to and the government doesn't seem to be reacting very quickly.

This is classic economics; centralised control and price control where vendors
are scared of being dinged for 'price gouging' have immediately resulted in
massive shortages. If the government encouraged prices to rise until supplies
were only just running out and gave the medical system enough money to buy
what they needed in that environment then the situation would resolve much
more quickly.

The people making face masks, ventilators, ICU beds and similar should be
rolling in so much money from panic buyers that it makes sense to hold
emergency reserves for the next crisis. That isn't what is happening, so
instead we won't have resources for this crisis or the next one. So called
'panic buying' leads to a very healthy economic response after a month or two;
which is where we happen to be vs COVID-19. If we'd had more panic buying
earlier we'd be in a better spot now, and rapidly moving to a better spot in a
month or two. If we allowed people to allocate resources to testing and
hospitals despite the opinions of centralised agencies we'd also be a better
spot. People like Bill Gates can fight malaria but they can't fight the CDC.

~~~
ethbro
> when the experts inevitably muck up

> government doesn't seem to be reacting very quickly

> If the government encouraged prices to rise until supplies were only just
> running out and gave the medical system enough money to buy what they needed
> in that environment then the situation would resolve much more quickly

> So called 'panic buying' leads to a very healthy economic response after a
> month or two

Your argument would be stronger if you dropped the opinionated hyperbole.

If the government transferred funds through the market, vs direct purchases,
then we'd be at the mercy of whatever the masses decided they wanted to buy.

As of a few days ago, this would have meant that millions of dollars went to
toilet paper manufacturers.

You seem to be of the opinion that a free market knows best in crisis
situations. I feel otherwise. Doubt I'm going to be able to change your mind.

~~~
roenxi
> Your argument would be stronger if you dropped the opinionated hyperbole.

Not actually true, hyperbole doesn't change the quality of the evidence or the
strength of the argument.

> As of a few days ago, this would have meant that millions of dollars went to
> toilet paper manufacturers.

Nothing wrong with that. If people feel a desperate need to buy overpriced
toilet paper then the toilet paper manufacturers and distributors should be
encouraged to take advantage of that. If a roll cost $30 that would stop
people buying trolleys of the stuff all at once. Instead, shops in Australia
have held prices steady and run out of toilet paper; leaving me peeved I have
to say. The situation is pretty much strictly worse than if the free market
was encouraged in times of crisis.

> You seem to be of the opinion that a free market knows best in crisis
> situations.

No, not at all. But suppressing free market forces in a crisis is one of the
worst possible responses because it delays the corrective action by suppliers.
Prices should be shooting up and down, and governments should be giving
hospitals emergency funding so they can buy what they need. That'll provide
the best signals of what is needed in a crisis. I bet the free market
understood the need for test kits a lot more than the CDC did in America;
there would have been hospitals crying out to test people.

------
weekay
Chloroquine phosphate, an old drug for treatment of malaria, is shown to have
apparent efficacy and acceptable safety against COVID-19 associated pneumonia
in multicenter clinical trials conducted in China. The drug is recommended to
be included in the next version of the Guidelines for the Prevention,
Diagnosis, and Treatment of Pneumonia Caused by COVID-19 issued by the
National Health Commission of the People's Republic of China for treatment of
COVID-19 infection in larger populations in the future.

~~~
ascorbic
Yes, that's the abstract

~~~
hackeerTwo
Or is it?

------
mirekrusin
Crypto is great, you can see from price charts when they found potential cure.
Bit like twitter, but faster.

