

Ask YC: Are you working on your startup/side-project strictly in your spare time? - tonyvt2005

If so, what keeps you from working on the startup full-time?  Obviously there are many reasons people don't make the leap.<p>1. Personal reasons / family obligations<p>2. Can't afford to lose the salary (could tie into 1)<p>3. You enjoy your day job.<p>4. You don't think you're capable or have enough experience.<p>5. You're waiting for that "killer idea".<p>6. You have the idea you want to go with but you're waiting for some semblance of success ("We have x # of users now, I think we're on to something...")<p>7. You haven't found the right people to work with.<p>(EDIT) 8. You're not doing it for the money.  You want to build something cool for yourself, your friends, etc.<p>I'm sure there are many more reasons.  What is yours?
======
huhtenberg
6 and 5 are closely related. The way it worked for me was to

    
    
      (a) generate and *polish* the idea; 
        (1) make sure it is technically sound
        (2) not trivial, i.e. not easy to copy
        (3) maps well on business opportunities
        (4) does not have IP (patents, licenses, etc) problems
    
      (b) implement it about 80-90% through, prepare solid beta
      (c) release beta and see how it's does
      (d) if all goes well, evaluate the progress and estimate how long until the first revenue comes in
    

Steps (a.2) and (a.3) filter out A LOT of ideas. Step (b) also tends to screw
things up as some ideas work out to be hard or even impossible to implement
alone or on a modest budget. Steps (c) and (d) are pretty much the last mile
before the full-time involvement. If the idea was thought through, the chances
of failure on last two steps are not very high.

So I'd say 2+5+6 (+8) is the combination I had. Step (a) took about 2 years,
(b) - under a year, (c) - 6 months. Your mileage may obviously vary :)

~~~
webwright
I'd love to hear some reasoning behind: "not trivial, i.e. not easy to copy"

Who cares if it's easy to copy? Paul Buccheit says he built the first version
of Gmail in an afternoon. Digg was famously built in fairly short order.
Twitter, Flickr, Facebook-- all would be fairly trivial to clone. Less trivial
to scale, obviously but... Feature-wise their V1 releases weren't that
complex.

If you want something that you can do in your off hours AND something that
isn't easy to copy, I'd say you might have an unreasonably low opinion of
hackers around the world. Surely there's nothing you could build in your off
hours that a few persistent hackers couldn't clone in a few months of full-
time work, is there?

More on the "why should you care" front-- can you name any successful
product/company that succeeded cloning someone else's idea? Maybe you can, but
it's the exception, not the the rule. Now there ARE examples of companies
jumping into the existing marketing and cleaning up by doing BETTER (iPhone,
Flickr, etc) - but that's not cloning... That's innovating.

~~~
huhtenberg
For reasoning see my other reply in this thread. Specifically your "few
months" estimate is rather conservative. A team of professionals can clone the
app or the service in a matter of weeks. The question here rather is how easy
to put this cloning team together, i.e. how mainstream the idea is to begin
with.

Additionally, you appear to be mostly considering high-profile web apps, which
is not exactly the whole software universe. Head to the tucows.com, pick
virtually any category and you will see it full of apps that are very similar.
On the other end of spectrum, have a look at companies like NetScreen, which
effectively grew their business by building cheaper Cisco devices. And this is
not a singular example, it's more of a general MO rather.

All in all, I wrote about what worked for _me_ and what worked exceptionally
well. This does not imply that it's the only way.

------
pragmatic
I make a pretty good salary at my current job. I have a young son at home and
I provide all the benefits. My salary could be replace, my benefits would be
much harder to replace.

So nights, weekends, lunchbreaks, etc, I'm writing and hacking away...

~~~
tonyvt2005
Yeah, benefits can be a big deal. I work for a small defense contractor and
they're paying for me to go to grad school.

There's certainly nothing wrong with taking the safer route when you have a
family to provide for.

~~~
markdc
Agreed. I quit a good job at a major company to join a venture-funded startup
in 2000...obviously my timing was terrible and the startup went under within a
year. The result was devastating personally and financially. I'm just now to
the point where I have enough savings to try again...but at the same time I've
rebuilt my career. It is really, really hard to walk away from a good paycheck
again, especially since the economy looks like recession in 2008. So I work on
things on the weekends.

------
wallflower
Great question. I think it's ok to deep-dive in (as long as you wade in). I
know some friends who have always worked for themselves, and I am always
impressed at their constant confidence. I observe some older folks (and even
some around my age) at work and I see they're going through the motions
sometimes - I don't want to be them. Build something with passion..

I'm starting to learn Ruby/Ruby on Rails on my train commute. I'm doing this
to broaden my skill set (specialize in Java for my job). It's slow going at
times and sometimes I only do 15 minutes a day.

A major project at work has (almost) come to an end (1.0). And I'm worried
about the inevitable screeching-to-a-halt (from overtime busy to idle bored).
As a result, a few of us at work are thinking of pitching a Ruby on Rails
project to key decision makers (it would be perfect for the application in
mind). I'm almost convinced I'll need to build the prototype on weekends (but
once we have it - it will sell itself - and they'll give us the go ahead). And
the best thing is when we successfully sell the prototype, I'll be able to
officially use Ruby on Rails on company time..

Of course, I have a small laundry list of projects involving web
mashups/integrations that I want to implement (with RoR). Like procrastitron
stated, _all_ of them are projects I would use and if other people liked them
(side benefit). I had trouble with pointers ten years ago so Objective-C is
probably a stretch - I'll throw this iPhone application idea out there - I got
a seeming mass text from a friend 'Hey how are you. What are you up to' -
iPhone app idea: Group broadcast SMS "mail merge" - Hey <contact name>. I
haven't talked to you in <rough time since last talked> What's new?'

If I had a long-term plan... it's trying to diversify my technological skill
set. And, I'm constantly trying to diversify my overall portfolio with long-
term side projects like Salsa dancing and public speaking (with the aim of
getting out of technology [maybe]). I find I learn (about startups, business,
and the business of technology) by osmosis just by reading news.YC. I _love_
the news.YC community (8aweek keeps it from being an obsession but I cheat on
the weekends).

~~~
tonyvt2005
I like what you said about overall portfolio - while my main focus now is to
continually improve my technical skills (I work with Rails and learn new
things quite often), in the long run it is best to be well-rounded. I'm
interested in learning more about business, stock and real-estate investing,
and learning to speak new languages.

------
procrastitron
Remember, creative activities can be their own reward. In those cases
profitability pretty much goes out the window.

For instance, my current side project is based on my personal interests and
probably could not make for a successful business. It's an operating system
project and obviously, that space is already taken. However, none of the
current operating systems appeal to my technical aesthetics, so I decided to
start my own.

~~~
tonyvt2005
Definitely, I agree. I should add that to my list.

I'd still develop software as a hobby even if there was no money in it.

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poppysan
I would say supporting a lifestyle is the #1 reason for ppl to have day jobs
period. If your kid starves, who cares if your startup succeeds.

~~~
wallflower
"Work doesn't necessarily make you happy/fulfilled but it gives you the money
to do the things that make you happy"

------
mosburger
Put me into the "trapped in day job for pay and benefits" category. I've got
two small kids now, and I've got to think of them first. I guess that means
I'm in categories #1 and #2. Perhaps a little bit of #5, "waiting for that
killer idea." If my idea was killer enough, maybe I would be less afraid of
looking for investors.

I don't want to turn this into a political discussion (it's one of the reasons
I don't go to reddit anymore), but it does make you wonder how many more
businesses could get off the ground if we had government-provided healthcare,
and people didn't feel stuck at their day-jobs for the health insurance. :/

~~~
tonyvt2005
Good point. I think gov't provided healthcare would have a huge effect on
small businesses.

Let's go Obam.... ok wait, let's not get political :)

~~~
markdc
Or if we just had competition in health care. It's illegal in America to sell
health care insurance across state lines, for example. It's also illegal for
associations to buy group health care. One could imagine a competitive market
where you could shop for insurance online nationwide, and where groups like Y
Combinator or university alumni associations could offer insurance to members
(getting the price benefits of scale that individuals can't get). That's John
McCain's approach. U.S. tax policy is the reason health care is employer-
provided-- that's what we need to fix, not expand the government's role in the
system.

------
ephextom
Of the options you offer, 2, 3 & 6, but I'm also finding the most important
benefits of full-time contracting is it's a great way to meet like-minded
people who could become collaborators or investors in my business.

I guess also, it's good way to stay in a positive frame of mind. In our first
go at running a business, we had no idea what we were doing and after 2-3
years killing ourselves on the startup we ended up broke & depressed. If
success breeds success equally failure can breed failure, and after enough
time spent with that smell of 'loser' about you, you start to lose the respect
of your peers and question your own worth.

It's taken me 2 years to get back on my feet to a point where life is going
really well, and I'm enjoying success both in my day job and my startup.
Whilst I'd love to quit full time work and focus on the startup (which I may
be able to do soon with funding from some of the people I've worked for),
having a day job has been great in getting the startup happening. By not
relying on it for your living you have more freedom to do it right for the
long term, and even if things are tough with the startup, your judgment isn't
clouded by panic.

~~~
tonyvt2005
"Fear of failure" should be on the list. A lot of people don't know how to
deal with failure. Some will let it ruin them, others will rebound as you did.

Those that rebound will have undoubtedly learned valuable lessons for their
next try. For people in certain situations and certain stages in life, this is
too big of a risk. Failure cannot be an option.

------
nazgulnarsil
startups are like everything else. you have to do a risk/benefit analysis. If
a person feels they are getting enough (salary + benefit + job security) from
being employed what is the point in creating a startup? startups have their
own benefits. working for yourself, the potential for a huge payoff. But you
have to decide if it's worth the risk. On this site, and in the silicon valley
in general, creating a startup is considered a good thing regardless of the
individual circumstances.

With the salaries as they are in california, people in high-demand salaried
positions don't need a startup to get rich. all you need to do is forgo
rampant consumerism and keeping up with the joneses and you'll be a
millionaire in about 20 years with a decent investment strategy.

In the meantime there is no shortage of time for side projects, and you get
the added bonus of not having to stress about something you truly enjoy doing
because you aren't doing it as your main source of income.

I'm not anti-startup, but working for yourself isn't a universal good.

------
kingnothing
I'm a student and feel obligated to finish my undergrad degree, although if my
startup takes off, I'll have no qualms about putting it on hold.

On the other hand, I have a couple of ideas that will be coming out in the
next five years, and if I could get the right team and funding together, I
would drop everything in a heart beat.

------
vikas5678
Grad student, paying for my studies from a loan + small income from freelance
programming, I cant afford to give up either, so I get as much done in my free
time as possible.

------
lyime
The main reason is I am going to school, and I don't see any point dropping
out just to do a startup. I have many years to do that. But i am doing it on
the side as we speak. I have had a few ideas over the year, although I haven't
found enough reasons to devote much time to them, which is pretty much (5).

After a recent launch buy a certain fruit theme company I have found an
excellent if not a killer idea to really start to think about the next steps.
I am current gather people but I do have the issue with number 7 and I am not
a hacker by YC's definition. I have started to gather resources (potential
people) and working on the side project apart form going to school full time
(computer engineering).

~~~
tonyvt2005
Fruit theme company? Wonder who that could be? :)

~~~
bayareaguy
<http://www.fruit.com> ?

(in case you don't already know where that link goes, see if can guess before
clicking it)

~~~
lyime
try again :)

------
zealog
For me, it's all about number 2 (and how it relates to #1) and my current
contracts and obligations at my "day job."

I build startups all day every day, so I'm comfortable with the field. I've
got what I think is a good idea and a ton of execution on it so far. I have a
small group of testers that (about 20% friends, the rest random strangers) and
a desire to make a great product.

There is a great monetary upside potential, but I just don't have the
resources at this time to quit and focus 100% on this. Of course, I sleep so
very little that I spend at least as many hours "on the side" as I do at my
day job, so it might be somewhat moot anyway.

------
johns
Can't give up the salary (wife, house, etc). Luckily I've found an employer
supportive of my startup (was originally a consulting customer) and has let me
structure my day job to get more time than nights and weekends to work on it.

I went at it full-time for 6 months when I first launched and it didn't fail,
I just ran out of money to sustain a salary. That was 18 months ago, I'm still
solvent and quitting working at it full-time was probably the best thing to do
for the long-term viability. My goal has always been to get going on as little
resources as possible so that if it failed, it wouldn't be a huge disaster. So
far, so good.

------
tonyvt2005
To answer my own question, I think I'm a combination of 2, 6, and 8.

I make a decent salary working on a project for the DoD. It's a project that's
fairly interesting and to top it off we get to use Rails, which I enjoy using
and learning. If I didn't feel like I was getting anything out of the job then
I'd probably look to something else.

I don't really feel a sense of urgency to strike it rich yet. I just want to
build something cool. For now I'm happy just working at my own pace and trying
to maintain a decent work-life balance. I'm in grad school part time and once
that's over I'll have more time for my personal projects.

------
bayareaguy
A combination of #3, #4 and #8:

#3 - I'm very committed to the people and project at my regular job and I like
things there too much to want to leave.

#4 - my idea will only work with a good web interface. Web gui/design is not
where my skills are at the moment.

#8 - this is something I want for myself. there's a chance others may want
functionality but I know if I don't get the interface right I'll only confuse
people and I'll only get one chance at a first impression.

------
bkrausz
I'm not working full-time because of college. I've heard many arguments
for/against it, but I do feel that a degree is a useful and worthwhile plan B
in case you do need to go to a big company for a paycheck. So for now I hack
away on weekends (and weekdays, and whenever I'm not working on homework) in
hopes that when I do get out of college I won't necessarily need to cash in on
that plan B. That, and if I dropped out of college my family would
disown/dismember me :).

------
richardw
I'll go fulltime when I need to. Right now I think it's healthy to not be
cooped up at home all the time. It also gives me an outlet for working on
other things so I don't get a numbed-brain from staring at the same stuff
every day.

Although I've been live for two weeks and the money has been pretty good!
We'll see if it's sustainable.

------
larryfreeman
I've planned my departure from my current gig in 2 years.

The main reason for the delay is that I need to regain my technical edge. I've
been a manager for 7+ years and am not at the level I once was.

I'm also playing around with some ideas. If I end up with something
interesting, then I will launch the start up earlier.

~~~
staunch
I think you'd regain that technical edge a lot faster if you were the
sysadmin, programmer, dba, network guy, etc.

------
adityakothadiya
One of the reasons is Immigration issues if you are working in other country
(USA). Having H1B visas and pending Green Card (permanent residency)
application are most common reasons of not able to leave your current
employer. These laws are so strict and complicated, that it's not easy to
leave the job and start your company.

~~~
tonyvt2005
Good point, forgot about that one. I know people in that situation - not sure
if they're looking to do a startup, but if they did it would be hard for them
to leave their current company.

------
s3graham
9\. Failed at full-time (gave myself 6 months). For now, I'm back to enjoying
a job + #8.

Maybe I'll try again if I convince myself something's good enough to try for.
Are you generating $500/day in value piddling around on your MacBook in Ruby?
Are you generating orders of magnitude more than that?

~~~
vlad
You're supposed to fail.

~~~
s3graham
Well then, I did a helluva good job :)

------
bkj123
started my own solo concompany doing business intelligence work (e.g.
predictive modeling). current contract takes about 45 hrs per week and I need
to work extra to getit's funny. I left the corporate world in August to become
a business intelligence consultant (e.g. predictive modeling). I spend 40+
hours/week at my current client and looking to line up future work. yet, i
don't consider this to be my startup (much to my wife's chagrin)

other reasons for not working on the start-up full time is that I'm not it
will make money, I question my experience, and I am having trouble finding
people to partner that have the skills needed including the passion and
mindset to work hard and question things, including myself

~~~
poronski
psst .. you can edit the post after it's first submitted :)

------
wenbert
for me, it would be number 2. I cant afford to lose the salary. Here in the
Philippines, there are no YCombinators or Launchboxes (or i don't know one
:P)... if there was funding, i would drop everything in a heartbeat and
concentrate to work on my big "idea"... for now, this big-"idea" stays on the
extra hours at home and on weekends...

sometimes i wish that people in the US would fund startups here in the
philippines. 1USD == 40Pesos. the funding would go a long way here. and in
case the startup succeeds, labor is dirt cheap here - people speak english and
they have skills.

~~~
tonyvt2005
That's an interesting one. Difficulty in finding funding overseas. I wonder if
the YCs of the world will branch out internationally someday. I don't see why
not.

~~~
wenbert
Overseas funding would be great but YCs and similar companies would have to be
careful though. I am not sure in other places, but here in Cebu(Philippines),
everything is booming... Infrastructure is improving due to large
international companies (EG: Lexmark, NEC, etc.) setting up in this small
island. And like i said, everyone speaks english...

------
bkj123
it's funny. I left the corporate world in August to start my own biz as a solo
business intelligence consultant (e.g. predictive modeling). I spend 40+
hours/week at my current client and looking to line up future work. yet, i
don't consider this to be my startup (much to my wife's chagrin)

other reasons for not working on the start-up full time is that I'm not it
will make money, I question my experience, and I am having trouble finding
people to partner that have the skills needed including the passion and
mindset to work hard and question things, including myself

------
cmm324
I am working on my startup all the time. At work, at home, out on the town. I
am always talking about it, emailing about it, and marketing it. To some I may
look like a whore because there is not one family member or friend who I have
not asked if they have connections to anyone in property management or real
estate investment. Why I don't drop all my work and focus on it full time is
lacking of capital. If I had enough money to get by for 6 months then I would
do it in a heart beat. But that is not the case.

------
omarish
I'm in school right now, but I do my schoolwork in my spare time.

It's all in your state of mind.

Best of luck.

------
wlievens
Mostly item 2 caused by 6. When 6 is demonstrated, 2 might become less
ominous.

~~~
tonyvt2005
Yeah, that's a pretty natural way to look at it.

------
lampy
How about #1+2 and absolutely not #3?

That is, if I liked my day job, I wouldn't be looking for ways to fulfill my
family finances by doing something else?

------
TrevorJ
I am working on it in my spare time, mostly since I have to pay bills.

------
wayland
i would pick reason #2 & #3

