
Japan Now Has More Electric Car Charging Spots Than Gas Stations - prostoalex
https://transportevolved.com/2015/02/17/official-japan-now-electric-car-charging-spots-gas-stations/
======
kamran20
Unlike the majority of gas stations in Japan however, the 40,000 electric car
charging points quoted by Nissan includes ones in private homes, causing some
critics to cry foul. After all, if a charging station is hidden in a
privately-owned garage, it isn’t easily accessible to the public. Yet while we
understand that criticism — and it’s why we used an asterisk in our headline —
the rise of charger-sharing sites like PlugShare.com means that more people
than ever before are offering their private charging station for others to
use, either as an altruistic gesture or for cold, hard cash. Moreover, it’s
possible to argue that because privately-owned charging stations are enabling
owners to drive their cars without visiting public charging stations, they’re
providing just as valid a service to everyday drivers as publicly-assessable,
higher-powered ones. But while electric car charging stations may now be far
more common in Japan than a gas station, the numbers of electric cars on the
roads of Japan still represent a tiny proportion of the total cars registered.
It includes public and private charging spots but the article does raise some
good points about 'charge spot pooling' and reducing the dependency on petrol
stations. Interesting times ahead!

~~~
hysan
I'd like to read exactly what those critics say because I'm curious to see if
they are accounting for the difference in driving culture between the US and
Japan. Specifically, in Japan:

1\. Owning a car in Japan is no where near as simple as in the US. One of the
requirements that makes the private charging stations criticism sound ignorant
is that you must have a legal verified parking spot to own a car. So the
majority of people who own electric cars will only need to use a charging
station when they are away from home for longer than a single charge. This is
probably not applicable in most daily use.

2\. Charging stations can be left unattended for 24 hour use. That's a huge
plus as electric cars start spreading. Why? Because in Japan, many gas
stations close and are unavailable during most night hours. Finding 24 hour
stations (usually self pump ones) after 7-8pm can be difficult in some areas.
So the gap between accessible fill-up/charge-up spots isn't as big as most
Americans are imagining. Of course a gap exists, but that will only close over
time. (edit: people also are much more conscious about having a full tank
before departing on long trips. It's just one of those things you have to
think about when driving in Japan.)

3\. Last is the daiko/taxi system in Japan. Read about the 0% alcohol
tolerance system and how this car service system works to make people's lives
easier here. Heck, you can't even ride your bike while drunk in Japan. The way
people approach transportation here is just different.

The driving culture in Japan is very different and it's hard to take that
criticism seriously unless some hard numbers and studies are done to take into
account the massive difference in driving culture.

~~~
dspillett
_> Heck, you can't even ride your bike while drunk in Japan._

That is true in many places officially, though a blind eye is often turned.

In the UK (my location) this is covered by section 30 or the Road Traffic Act
(1988): "It is an offence for a person to ride a cycle on a road or other
public place when unfit to ride through drink or drugs".

You can't be breathalysed (well, you can but you can't be forced to, if they
ask you can decline unlike when in a car or other such vehicle) or be made to
give other samples (though as with breath, if they ask and you volunteer the
sample _can_ be used as evidence), but other tests _can_ be demanded (i.e. the
standard finger-to-nose, straight-line, and alphabet physical & mental
coordination tests). It'll not affect your driving license if you have one but
there are potentially significant fines.

~~~
Unklejoe
[That is true in many places officially, though a blind eye is often turned.]

This is kind of off topic, but there are some places in the USA where you can
get a DUI for riding a dirt bike in your own back yard (while drunk).

Since DUI laws often even extend down to roller skates, one could extrapolate
that you could technically get a DUI for roller skating drunk around your
kitchen.

Of course, no sensible judge would let that fly (I hope).

The problem in this case is that many of the DUI laws don't distinguish
between private and public property.

~~~
squeaky-clean
> This is kind of off topic, but there are some places in the USA where you
> can get a DUI for riding a dirt bike in your own back yard (while drunk).

In what situation could this happen though? I feel like other laws would
prohibit this from happening. A police officer can't enter your property
without a warrant or probable cause. So unless you're visible in your
backyard, and very noticeably intoxicated, how could they tell you're not just
clumsy and practicing?

But if you end up driving through your neighbor's fence, or run over a
guest/family member in your own backyard, I don't think a DUI is unreasonable.
Or if you drive into your own home, tree, whatever, and try to contact
insurance for damages, it also makes sense to consider that you were
intoxicated.

~~~
gozur88
I suspect people also tend to get busted for this sort of thing when the cops
get called for some other (possibly related) reason, e.g. you're doing drunken
donuts on your property and the neighbor calls the police because you're
disturbing her with loud music.

In most places the cops would probably tell you yes, indeed, you can get a DUI
for driving drunk on your own property, so turn off the radio, go inside, and
we'll call it even.

When you're dumb enough to start mouthing off at that point, _that 's_ when
you get the DUI.

------
Animats
Here's the interactive map.[1] Most of those charging stations are not public.
Hotels and auto dealerships have some of them. I've been looking for them in
Google Maps. Here's one that's in a public parking lot and has signage.[2] You
have to pay for parking to charge, but that's not unreasonable in Tokyo.

[1] [http://www.chademo.com/wp/jpmap/](http://www.chademo.com/wp/jpmap/) [2]
[https://goo.gl/maps/M5WYLuM4uEK2](https://goo.gl/maps/M5WYLuM4uEK2)

------
anexprogrammer
This is hardly surprising. Or terribly newsworthy. Just reinforces how early
we still are in the adoption of electric vehicles.

The amount of gas stations available has plummeted in most places over the
last 20 years. I presume Japan is similar. It's been equally down to
supermarkets getting into petrol supply and the oil companies introducing
large weekly mininimums. UK probably has 1/2 or 1/3 the number of petrol
stations compared to y2k. It's ruined the convenience of filling up and tiny 1
and 2 pump stations are consigned to history. Live somewhere rural? Now you
can drive 20 miles just to fill up.

Meanwhile charging points are being put in everywhere - towns are making
charging bays in car parks, or on street. Much like happened with petrol in
the 1920s.

Oh, and let's not forget a charging point caters for a lot fewer vehicles than
a petrol station.

~~~
rayiner
Gas stations are incredibly damaging to the environment, and the land is very
expensive to remediate if ever used for something else. That's why they have
been disappearing.

~~~
toomuchtodo
As soon as EVs take off and gas stations start closing up shop, I'm going into
petrol station remediation. There's gold in them there hills!

~~~
tamana
Oil, not gold ;+)

------
duaneb
It is a strange experience to be jealous of countries with high population
density. However, every time bicycles, electric vehicles, or renewable energy
comes up, I feel profoundly embarrassed the US can't form a similar effort
given our resources, even if I rationally understand it's probably not worth
it to have a high speed train hit all the small towns in Montana, or how solar
panels might not work as well in Forks, Washington as they do in California.

~~~
mjevans
While I too agree that high speed rail (and even Internet) in absolutely rural
areas doesn't really make sense...

The US still has areas of fairly to -really- high population density, and
arguably, areas that should be far higher (city cores with skyscrapers, and
city outskirts with 6-8 story high multi-use buildings), even the current
suburban density is more than dense enough to support better transit
experiences than we presently see.

Transit of both the mass people and the mass-data kind.

~~~
amazon_not
> While I too agree that high speed rail (and even Internet) in absolutely
> rural areas doesn't really make sense...

Yeah, it's not like rural areas have power or phone service. /s

Seriously, what makes high speed internet so special that rural areas should
_not_ have it?

It's not like we don't know how to build networks and we've already built the
power and telephone networks. Internet access is getting to be as important as
phone service and power and it's undeniable that from a societal perspective
everyone would benefit from having equal access to internet services.

~~~
personjerry
> Seriously, what makes high speed internet so special that rural areas should
> not have it?

Internet is not considered a utility in the same way that power and phone
lines are. If this is the change you are suggesting, the ongoing debates about
net neutrality, as well as rather confusing bandwidth monetization by telecom
companies, are big issues in the way of commoditizing the Internet.

~~~
amazon_not
> Internet is not considered a utility in the same way that power and phone
> lines are.

I would not mind that the Internet be classified as a utility. Regardless of
if it is or not, a co-ordinated effort should be made to bring high speed
broadband access to all, including rural areas.

What I do take exception to is claims that bringing high speed Internet access
to rural areas does not make sense or should not be done.

> If this is the change you are suggesting, the ongoing debates about net
> neutrality, as well as rather confusing bandwidth monetization by telecom
> companies, are big issues in the way of commoditizing the Internet.

Excuse my ignorance, but how does network neutrality stand in the way of
commoditizing the Internet?

I'm much more inclined to say that mandating network neutrality, open access,
transparent pricing and verifiable metering and billing would go a long way to
solve any problems.

~~~
personjerry
> I would not mind that the Internet be classified as a utility. Regardless of
> if it is or not, a co-ordinated effort should be made to bring high speed
> broadband access to all, including rural areas.

I mean, legally, they are public utilities. From my limited understanding, the
utility companies MUST provide for either everyone in an area or no one, for
example, amongst other regulations. This is not true for internet access, not
in most places.

> Excuse my ignorance, but how does network neutrality stand in the way of
> commoditizing the Internet?

If people are able to "pay" for better, faster internet access, how can we
regulate it as a public utility for everyone? One might argue that it seems
"unfair" (for certain definitions).

This is related to internet billing: Do we bill the downloader? The uploader?
How do we measure it? How do we verify the measurement? What if someone MITM
injects packets?

We need to make decisions and figure things out in order to get internet to
the level of, say, electricity.

~~~
amazon_not
> If people are able to "pay" for better, faster internet access, how can we
> regulate it as a public utility for everyone? One might argue that it seems
> "unfair" (for certain definitions).

I fail to see how this has anything to do with network neutrality. You pay for
your internet connection, I pay for mine. There's nothing unfair about me
having a 100M connection and you having a 1G connection.

Network neutrality only bans preferential treatment of service providers, it
has nothing to do with who has what kind of connection.

> This is related to internet billing: Do we bill the downloader? The
> uploader? How do we measure it? How do we verify the measurement? What if
> someone MITM injects packets?

Internet access billing has fairly established practices. There are no
unknowns there. It's either flat rate in retail or 95th percentile in
wholesale. Metered billing is an anomaly that can be largely be done away
with.

MITM packet injection is not really something you have to worry about. Suffice
to say spoofing can be largely prevented.

> We need to make decisions and figure things out in order to get internet to
> the level of, say, electricity.

There really isn't much to figure out. You can sell Internet access almost the
same way you sell electricity.

~~~
SeanCrawford
As regards rural areas (like where my sister lives) not having fast internet,
this is why my blog has no graphics, photographs or other doodads: they take
too long to download over phone lines.

------
wiz21
Interestingly, Japan oil consumption felt by +/\- 18% since 2000 while
population remained stable.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demography_of_Japan](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demography_of_Japan)

[http://www.indexmundi.com/energy.aspx?country=jp&product=oil...](http://www.indexmundi.com/energy.aspx?country=jp&product=oil&graph=consumption)

~~~
IkmoIkmo
This is mostly true for many developed countries.

For example, in the nr 1 economy in Europe, Germany, the figure dropped since
the 80s, and all of this is well before renewables ramped up (which are still
tiny). Same with the nr 2, the UK, also dropped, and the nr 3, France. I
haven't bothered looking further. All these countries grew in size somewhat
btw.

In part it's because of new efficiencies, in part because of shifting
industries away from industrial towards services.

------
mikeash
As I write this comment, this story is on the front page just above the story
titled "Misperceiving Bullshit as Profound." I find the juxtaposition amusing.
I'm a huge proponent of EVs, but this comparison is meaningless and silly.

------
im3w1l
More than one pump per gas station. Still very impressive!

~~~
biot
And, as the article hints at, refuelling with gas takes minutes vs. hours for
electric. It'll probably take a couple orders of magnitude more electric
chargers than gas stations to support the same number of each vehicle type.

~~~
arrrg
But on the other hand electric cars can be charged at home …

Depending on how many people have a place with a power outlet (ok, a garage)
in close proximity to their car and depending on how many people frequently
drive less than their range per day (and less than their maybe underpowered
power outlet can charge in one night) that might save on quite some public
outlets. But I don’t know the numbers.

I know many people where this would apply, though. And those outlets are
included in this number, anyway. Which kinda supports my assumption: I think
you might be able to get away with actually many fewer public power outlets
than gas stations.

~~~
hysan
FYI, to own a car in Japan, you must have a legal verified parking spot that
you own. For most people, that probably means land in the same area as your
home. So even without a garage, they should still be able to install an outlet
on their own property.

edit: There's a culture difference with regards to driving that I explained in
another comment just now. Reading some of the other comments further down
makes me think that very few people commenting here understand the laws and
culture behind driving in Japan.

~~~
arrrg
Cool! I obviously didn't know that. So that use case is probably quite common
in Japan (if the other factors line up, but I don't see why they wouldn't,
frequently).

In the US and Europe having your own, dedicated place to put your car is
probably more or less weakly coordinated with owning a car (maybe less in the
US, where at least in some places owning a car is more of a requirement?).
Just because being able to afford a car is probably weakly coordinated with
being able to afford your own spot. But this regulation should make that even
more so in Japan.

------
adventured
This claim is only true because they included private garage based charging,
such as in a home. A pretty big stretch in trying to generate a headline.

~~~
capote
I think it's reasonable to count those. People use them, maybe even more than
public ones. They serve a huge purpose and are an important part of having
electric cars in society. They're very much on-par with gas stations for this
count, and for the viability of the electric car system, in my opinion. After
all, Nissan (referenced in this article) is talking about the viability of the
electric car system in society, not just numbers for fun or headlines.

If people had personal gas stations because it took a long time to fuel your
car and you had to do it overnight, those should count too, because they'd
argue for the viability of the combustion engine. But that's not the case.

~~~
lotharbot
> _" People use them, maybe even more than public ones"_

I drive a Chevy Volt, which spends about 23 hours per day plugged in to the
charger in my driveway. That private spot gets used a lot, but it only
services one vehicle. Even a public charging station generally only serves the
needs of a couple dozen vehicles per day. Whereas a gas station generally
services hundreds, or even thousands, of vehicles. So a spot-to-station
comparison isn't really very useful. The more relevant question is "how many
vehicles does this infrastructure support, in what usage patterns?"

The answer to that question is, still a lot fewer electric vehicles than
gasoline vehicles are supported by the current infrastructure (even in Japan),
and the usage patterns are more limited.

We're clearly in a transitional period where electric vehicles are becoming
viable, but there are limitations. As I said in a recent thread, _" If I
purchase a vehicle, I'm likely to want it to work for every trip I want to
take ... If a car sucks for even one of those trips [to distant states, the
airport at ~45 miles round-trip, or a long day of errands], I'm going to be
hesitant to buy it"_. As electric ranges get longer and public charging
stations get faster and more dense, electric vehicles will become more viable
for more people, but right now they're still not on par with gasoline vehicles
for the population as a whole (not even in a smaller country like Japan.) The
progress is exciting, but sometimes it's presented in misleading ways that
make it sound a lot closer to "always viable" than it really is.

~~~
toomuchtodo
> but right now they're still not on par with gasoline vehicles for the
> population as a whole (not even in a smaller country like Japan.)

Completely untrue. The average round trip daily commute in the US is ~45
miles. Even mediocre electric vehicles like the Leaf and the Bolt can do that.

I'm assuming Tesla's Model 3 is what causes EV demand to take off. ~200 mile
range + Supercharger access = electric mobility is solved.

~~~
lotharbot
> _" The average round trip daily commute in the US is ~45 miles."_

You can't just look at an average trip and say "this vehicle can handle it,
therefore it's completely viable for the average person", because the average
person sometimes takes trips other than their average daily commute. Sometimes
they go visit their grandparents or cousins out on the farm. Sometimes they
visit their sister who lives two states over. Sometimes they make their
ordinary daily commute but then follow it up by driving to a sporting event or
a get-together some distance in the opposite direction. If an EV is suitable
for your daily commute, but not for your occasional trips, then it's still not
on par with a gasoline vehicle.

Even the supercharger network has a long way to go; here's a comment I made
about it a month ago:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11431401](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11431401)

The takeaway is that about 1/4 of the US population lives in metro areas that
are well-served by the supercharger network in all directions, and 3/4 lives
in areas that have significant gaps for at least one significant direction of
travel.

My uncle and my wife's grandpa were EV enthusiasts going back decades. I drive
a plug-in electric (with a gas generator, which solves the not-well-covered
trip problem) and so do my in-laws. I've been watching carefully. Right now,
there are still lots of reasons for lots of people to stay away from pure
electric vehicles, and while that list of reasons is getting shorter, it's
still a long enough list that for a lot of people it's a non-starter as a
primary vehicle.

~~~
toomuchtodo
I disagree, but respect your point of view.

------
pnewman3
I just came back from Japan, and saw very few EVs on the road, just one or two
Nissan Leafs. By a wide margin the cars you mostly see on the road there are
kei-cars, which are small cars with 660cc engines. They are cheap, tax-
advantaged, offer good fuel economy, and are surprisingly roomy. Until there
is a good EV kei alternative I don't think EVs will really take off in Japan.
Hybrids are pretty common though.

I also saw several mobile charging spots at convenience stores though, which
is brilliant, and some larger car parks covered with solar panels. Being able
to get charging points at convenient locations using the existing grid, and
thus doing away with specific trips to the gas station and fuel distribution
logistics will be a huge advantage eventually.

~~~
pjlegato
The statistical evidence backs this up: pure electric vehicle sales in Japan
are a tiny fraction of total vehicle sales -- less than 1% -- and sales are
not growing significantly.

The headline is linkbaity and meant to play on people's unfounded stereotypes
of Japan as some sort of environmentally superior Utopian Tomorrowland.

Only about 30,000 plug-in vehicles are sold per year in Japan[1], out of 4.2
_million_ total passenger vehicles sold.[2]

Growth forecasts for plugins are anemic, with even the most optimistic
estimates predicting only 50,000 units sold annually by 2023.[3]

[1] [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plug-
in_electric_vehicles_in_J...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plug-
in_electric_vehicles_in_Japan#Sales_by_model)

[2] [http://www.statista.com/statistics/269889/passenger-car-
sale...](http://www.statista.com/statistics/269889/passenger-car-sales-in-
japan-since-2007/)

[3] [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plug-
in_electric_vehicles_in_J...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plug-
in_electric_vehicles_in_Japan#Future_trends)

~~~
pnewman3
I think Japan is at least better than the US environmentally in a number of
ways, but a lot of the benefit is squandered away by things like overuse of
air conditioning, packaging waste, and industry.

------
frgewut
I would be more interested in statistics about Norway as 30% of new cars are
electric there.

~~~
jernfrost
I believe there are around 50 - 60 000 EVs in Norway and 6000 public charging
stations. The EU is mandating that Norway needs to build 25 000 charging
stations by 2020.

Shortage of charging points is becoming a problem as the number of electric
cars is growing much faster than the building of charging stations. So while
there is good geographic coverage the problem is that so many need to charge
at the same time.

Whenever I pass charging stations down town they always seem to be occupied by
somebody.

~~~
Tobias42
How can the EU tell Norway to build charging stations if Norway is not even a
member of the EU? Do you have any sources for that?

~~~
ropiku
Norway is part of the European Free Trade Association. It has access to the EU
market but it means it has to respect certain laws and there is freedom of
travel/work.

------
dbalan
The actual data worth looking will the percentage of electric vehicles to ones
that run on conventional fuel.

[1] [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plug-
in_electric_vehicles_in_J...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plug-
in_electric_vehicles_in_Japan) [2]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_car_use_by_country#Ja...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_car_use_by_country#Japan)

~~~
lotharbot
of note: Japan has about 80 million total vehicles (via
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motor_vehicle#Japan](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motor_vehicle#Japan)
) -- so while the number of pure electric vehicles is rising, it's still a
small percentage overall.

------
datsun
Why don't gas stations offer quick charging spots by now I wonder? Why are
they not interested in attracting EV owners?

------
ck2
Sometimes revolutions happen quietly, very quietly.

(actually, that could be an electric car company slogan)

------
piyushpr134
Japan has quietly done it and forgot to tell the world!

------
akafred
Cool, lots of cars running on nuclear energy, then!

~~~
Complexicate
Nope. There's barely any nuclear power here now. Most plants were turned off
after Fukushima. In fact I believe only 1 is online at the moment.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_power_in_Japan](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_power_in_Japan)

~~~
akafred
Ah, didn't know that. I guess they are mainly running on electricity from
coal/oil/gas power plants, then.

~~~
lmm
Which is a lot more efficient than running off direct-drive petrol engines.
There are reasons why e.g. diesel-electric locomotives are a thing.

------
kubatyszko
and Tesla has barely THREE charging stations in Tokyo... (2 are in "center"
and one on the periphery).

~~~
Zarel
The last time I went to a Tesla store, they told me Superchargers aren't
supposed to be used in cities, they're supposed to be used mainly for road
trips. Putting them between major cities allows them to be free to be used for
road trips without making them convenient enough for most people to use them
as their usual charging station.

