
China Bans Online Bible Sales as It Tightens Religious Controls - DeusExMachina
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/04/05/world/asia/china-bans-bible-sales.html
======
rrggrr
Another sign (among many) that China is preparing for significant social
unrest and probably global instability. I suspect the CCP has concluded that a
rebalancing of its economy is inevitable, close at hand, and will be painful
for most Chinese. The scale of China's challenge, maintaining order in a
nation of its size, guarantees there will be overreach.

I thought we might see mesh-networking emerge in Iran as a means for
protestors to organize and communicate. Didn't happen. Now I think there's a
pretty good chance China's restrictive communications networks are going to
result in some real innovation in ad-hoc networking and covert communication
as the months and years progress. The next Twitter may be found among USB keys
embedded in brick walls, or rogue routers covertly attached to outlets in
public bathrooms.

Ironically, the outcome would be better for all concerned if China allowed the
debate and unrest to play itself out and impact policy. History proves
bottoms-up accountability delivers much better outcomes than top-down
oversight.

~~~
hangonhn
"History proves bottoms-up accountability delivers much better outcomes than
top-down oversight."

Oh I'm not so sure about that. At least for results people can see within a
short amount of time, a strong, competent authoritarian government can deliver
results much faster and people like that. Democracies are messy and difficult.
I'm not saying this because I am pro-authoritarianism but rather as an
admonishment against the notion that democracy will somehow win as if it is a
law of nature and things will just flow that way ("end of history" stuff and
all that). Democracy requires work and faith that it is better in the long
run. Authoritarianism arises when people lose faith and patience and the
demagogue promises quick results through the application of unbridled power.
If we want democracy, we have to be vigilant and participate and have a good
dose of patience. It requires more from the individuals than authoritarianism.

~~~
candiodari
I get the impression this is much more likely to happen when one group of
elites gets the country into an economic situation that will make them lose
their power. In a way, they fucked up, but of course they don't see things
that way. (I have never read in the history books about an elite that saw
their actions justified by economic results. No their actions are "from God",
"noble", "good for the planet", "socially just", "for the plebs", ... and so
on. None of them accept the judgement that comes from the real world in terms
of economic performance, in fact usually right before they lose power they
attempt to falsify economic indicators on a very large scale, because at least
some of them do realize that their justifications are bullshit and the result
in the real world is all that matters. Those results are usually less than
perfect)

Then the old elites and the powerless masses have something in common : they
need the government to repress things with a heavy hand. The elites need the
government to repress people, because otherwise their power is under threat,
or even their persons. The powerless masses want the government to be heavy-
handed because they want all the shenanigans and "gentlemen's agreements" that
exist with the elites blown up, and they want their newly elected people to
have the power to blow those up.

You see a sort of mini version happening currently. Both the middle Americans
that elected him and the Bay Area progressives that hate him want Trump to
have more power. Obviously things like legislating solutions to "fake news"
are very, very bad for both of them, yet they both want it. I even understand
how the reasoning works, and where they're both very very wrong.

The progressives want heavy handed government because "they're right" (they
mostly are, of course, but) and the population just doesn't see that. So we
must legislate and put rules for what the population sees, hears, and so on.
Otherwise climate change action, future democratic/progressive politics, open
borders, ... and so on are all in great danger.

... except of course with Donald Trump in charge of enforcement actions for
this ... things are not going to go well for these causes regardless of the
heavy hand. And the rights and powers that the executive power acquires as a
result of this legislation ... will be aimed straight at them.

The middle Americans are tired of being marginalized and not listened to. They
want their jobs (their industries) protected and left alone. They want limits
on imports. Imports of people that complete on the job market, and imports of
goods that put their employers out of business.

... except of course automation means this is useless. Furthermore,
economically speaking these limits will lead to inflation, and they'll be the
last ones to get wage increases. So if this indeed happens (as it appears it
will) it will make their situation that much worse, not better. And of course
that heavy hand will lead to more government bureaucrats interference in their
lives and companies, not less.

------
InTheArena
This is not new - China has been destroying churches, bulldozing them whenever
they believed they could.

Any identity or belief system other then that which the state provides is a
threat to totalitarian states. You see this clearly over the last two hundred
years with the criminalization of Christianity not only in China and Russia,
but Nazi Germany (which alternatively tried to co-opt and then destroy
churches), the middle east (which has had a open war between various Muslim
sects and states for the last 75 years), South East asia, etc. Hell, even the
french revolution attempted to suppress religion - with the Martyrs of
Compiègne and the cult of the supreme being, and the cult of reason.

States which promise Utopia cannot accept any alternative to the state vision
of how to reach Utopia.

The difference now is that the amount of power that a modern state has far
outstrips the power the Hitler and Stalin's Gestapo and NKVD.

How much you want to bet that your Chinese "credit score" goes down if you
read the Bible? Or 1984. Or Sanzijing.

------
Quarrelsome
Its worth noting the absolutely insane impact that cargo cult Christianity had
on China which arguably caused the Chinese civil war. That might be some
context as to why Christianity has been singled out?

EDIT: why would you downvote this?

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiping_Heavenly_Kingdom](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiping_Heavenly_Kingdom)

From the source:

> A self-proclaimed convert to Christianity, Hong Xiuquan ... [claimed] ...
> that he was the second son of God and the younger brother of Jesus.

~~~
rukittenme
You're being down-voted because your comment can be construed as
justification. Which, if it is, is absolutely deplorable.

~~~
bshepard
I don't think it's a justification, it's a contextualization.

~~~
dajohnson89
yep, and you presented it in a factual non biased way. it's just not
convenient for the HN narrative that censorship=BAD.

------
andy_ppp
What are the Chinese government so scared of! They have complete control in a
way not possible in the West, I can’t really foresee how the state would be
overthrown by the people there?

~~~
jacquesm
They are afraid of other power blocks and that's what churches really are when
you strip away the veneer.

You can still see this all over Europe, Romania, Greece, Bulgaria, Poland,
Germany, Ireland, England, Spain and Italy have very powerful religious
entities, and in many other countries even though the religious fractions are
not quite that powerful they still have lot of power to influence politics and
life in general.

~~~
andy_ppp
The church has literally zero power to do anything in the UK.

We live in secular societies and I cannot believe your statement is provably
true. No church/religion will ever go up against the power of the Chinese
state, unless God herself returns to Earth...

~~~
jacquesm
> The church has literally zero power to do anything in the UK.

That's not for lack of trying and a direct consequence of doing exactly
that.[1] Also: (edit: Northern) Ireland is very much a part of the UK and the
church has a lot of power there.

> We live in secular societies and I cannot believe your statement is provably
> true.

You don't have to believe it, that's fine by me. Having lived in Romania and
seeing a poor country dump 100's of millions, much of it government funds into
a church in a city that already has a ridiculous number of churches is one
datapoint I have. Having lived in Poland and seeing how much power even local
priests have over their subjects (typically more than the local government
representatives) is another.

Seeing the German state collect taxes on behalf of the Church is a third.

If you feel that Italy and Spain are free from religious influence that's also
fine by me.

As much as I would like to see that we live in 'secular societies' it seems to
me that this is not the case based on the evidence before my eyes. Even Donald
Trump goes to church to keep up appearances because it is said that no atheist
could ever be elected President of the USA.

> No church/religion will ever go up against the power of the Chinese state

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falun_Gong](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falun_Gong)

[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_of_England](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_of_England)

~~~
leereeves
Only a small and bitterly disputed slice of Ireland is part of the UK.

~~~
jacquesm
Good point, I should have written 'Northern Ireland', apologies.

~~~
leereeves
Beyond mere pedantry, I think it's relevant to your point. How powerful is the
church (any church) in Northern Ireland?

Northern Ireland remains in the UK because of the Protestants. Is the Anglican
(or any other protestant church) powerful there?

And if the Catholic Church (and the Catholics) were actually powerful in
Northern Ireland, would it remain part of the UK?

------
salimmadjd
Christianity has become a political tool now. It's a bit similar to how
America feared and still does not allow members of communist party to become
US citizens [1].

On the power of evangelical christianity, just look at some parts of central
America, where there has been a strong conversion to evangelical Christianity.
So strong that, is considered one of the reasons Hounders and Guatemala voted
along with Trump administration on UN Jerusalem resolution. [2], [3]

[1][https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/aug/16/communist-
pa...](https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/aug/16/communist-party-
members-still-barred-us-citizenship-trump) [2]
[https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/un-
jerusal...](https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/un-jerusalem-
vote-latest-updates-list-countries-voted-against-us-israel-capital-nikki-
haley-general-a8124136.html) [3]
[https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/the_americas/guatemala-...](https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/the_americas/guatemala-
and-honduras-sided-with-trump-on-jerusalem-heres-why/2017/12/28/7c4dfeee-
eb1e-11e7-956e-baea358f9725_story.html?utm_term=.00a3cba2d265)

~~~
creep
Christianity has always been a political tool. I'm not saying that religion in
general is incorrect or that it cannot exist outside of political use in a
genuine way-- only that Christianity in particular has always been used in
that way.

~~~
salimmadjd
You're absolutely correct. What I meant to say, it is now a western and
particularly more so has become an American political tool.

------
stuffedBelly
There is going to be repercussion. The Chinese government starts to treat
Christianity as a cult like Falun Gong, to which it used the same tactic. But
unlike Falun Gong, which is more of a home-brew quasi religion from the 90s,
Christianity and missionary activities have been intrinsically rooted in major
cities like Nanjing and Shanghai, especially during the wartime.

This also sends a danger sign to the Uyghur area, which is Muslim dominated,
making Uyghurs worry that Muslim might be the next religion to crack down. If
the Chinese government wants stability and total control of its people, this
is not the way to do it. And unlike two decades ago, there are now hundreds of
ways to uprise and much harder to crack down.

~~~
erric
What kind of repercussions?

~~~
candiodari
One can only presume the same kinds that they faced between 1949 and 1994 or
so. So essentially ... none at all.

What baffles me about Chinese people is how acquiescent they are. Ironically
the fact that Chinese people trust their government so much is, at least
partly, the cause that their government (especially on local level) is so
ridiculously untrustworthy.

How untrustworthy ? It is generally accepted that about 80% of Chinese
published economic indicators from public institutions are outright
fabrication. If you look further into this and what it means, it is baffling.
They are lies, and not just lies, but they are lies by people who do not
themselves know the true numbers.

About the whole financial community is convinced that the Chinese government
itself has no idea about the economic performance of the country because of
this pervasive and onmipresent falsification.

In one famous case, a local governor from Mongolia is known to have promised
to reduce steel producing capacity by about 20%. Not only did he not do it. He
lied about it, and it took the central government about 4 years to realize it
had happened (or at least, took 4 years before it was even mentioned
anywhere).

The attitude in China must change. I mean, even if the communists just want to
remain in power, they must find a way to at least get decent data themselves,
as well as trustworthy governors.

------
citilife
The Heathens!

It's been spiraling down for a while now. I know quite a few Chinese who moved
from China to the U.S. now, while they can. A couple of them are LGBT, where
it was made clear they weren't welcome - even with PhD's in Chemical
Engineering and Physics.

~~~
TaylorAlexander
And yes the US doesn’t always treat foreigners as welcome either. :-/

~~~
citilife
No doubt... It's just strange China is literally chasing away some serious
talent because they don't agree with their moral code.

~~~
myth_drannon
They have plenty of people, last I heard. Plus or minus one million people
here or there doesn't really make any dent on their society and getting rid of
"undesirables" without mass murder looks very beneficial in the eyes of the
authorities.

------
surfmike
Religion proved to be a strong counter to communism in Eastern Europe. It's no
wonder they're scared.

~~~
hexo
and strong supporters of nazis... (speaking about catholics)

~~~
lainga
Certain cardinals in the Vatican supported the Nazis. I don't see how the
Kirchenkampf, _Mit brennender sorge_ and the actions of Catholics in the camps
were outweighed by those cardinals' actions, any more than the Belgians were
Nazis because of Leon Degrelle.

------
ghostbrainalpha
It's important to note, that while it is now illegal to buy the Bible online
in China....

They are still allowed to purchase the Bible from official church bookstores.

This is probably more about finding out exactly how many Bibles are being sold
in the country rather than completely stopping them from being sold.

~~~
dragonwriter
> They are still allowed to purchase the Bible from official church
> bookstores.

Official churches in China (even those notionally identified with other global
denominations) are significantly state controlled, monitored, and censored.

> This is probably more about finding out exactly how many Bibles are being
> sold

And to whom.

------
woodandsteel
Part of the problem for the Chinese government is that in a little more than a
century, the country has been through 4 quite different political and economic
systems. There was traditional Confucianism, then the Western-inspired
Nationalist regime, then Maoism,and then the more moderate era that started
under Dung Jao Ping. And now Xi is creating a new, more authoritarian system.

As a result the population has no real loyalty to the political system, it
just keeps its head down and tries to do as well as it can. And so it will
free free to revolt if it gets unhappy enough.

------
sunstone
Any Chinese interested in reading a Bible will just download it. Restricting
access to the printed version will have very little impact and will likely
increase demand, because banning books usually does that.

~~~
DeusExMachina
I would not underestimate the ability of the Chinese government to control
what people can access online.

------
enigma31401
Jesus's anarchosyndicalism must be dangerous.

~~~
krapp
> Jesus's anarchosyndicalism must be dangerous.
    
    
        And he said unto them, "Whose is this image and superscription?"
        They said unto him, "Caesar's." Then said he unto them, Render 
        unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's, and unto God the 
        things that are God's.
    

Please forgive the invocation of a meme on Hacker News but ...u wot m8?

------
frgtpsswrdlame
Is censorship even effective? I'd love to see an academic treatment of the
reality of censorship minus the obvious moral qualms. I suppose it's probably
an impossible thing to measure.

~~~
paradite
Some interesting research on this topic:

[http://gking.harvard.edu/files/gking/files/censored.pdf?m=14...](http://gking.harvard.edu/files/gking/files/censored.pdf?m=1447795312)

[https://citizenlab.ca/2016/11/wechat-china-censorship-one-
ap...](https://citizenlab.ca/2016/11/wechat-china-censorship-one-app-two-
systems/)

Some interesting answers on Quora:

[https://www.quora.com/Why-is-it-that-a-lot-of-Chinese-
people...](https://www.quora.com/Why-is-it-that-a-lot-of-Chinese-people-dont-
feel-oppressed-by-their-regime-but-some-foreigners-insist-they-are)

~~~
frgtpsswrdlame
That Harvard article is really interesting, thanks.

------
monochromatic
That’s... just evil. Even atheists generally support people’s freedom to read
and believe as they please.

~~~
EliRivers
"Even atheists"? Are atheists pretty evil, but not quite this evil? Are
atheists well-known for being anti-freedom? Why "even atheists"?

~~~
whatshisface
Athiests (the community) are known for being outspoken about the damage that
certian religions have caused and are causing, but they're also known for
supporting the free exchange of ideas including those that they think are
harmful. Atheists (the definition) aren't known for anything because atheism
doesn't demand any specific behaviors.

~~~
lurquer
I wonder if there have been any explicitly Athiest regimes? That is,
governments based on an ideology that explicitly denies the existence of God
and devalues all religions?

If only we had historical examples of such regimes, perhaps we could see if
they were benign or murderous.

Oh what a pity we don't have such examples.

~~~
dragonwriter
> I wonder if there have been any explicitly Athiest regimes?

Some, but not all, regimes in the Leninist (and Stalinist, etc., derivatives)
tradition were/are, and early the French Revolutionary regime briefly was
during the period of the establishment of the Cult of Reason (which, while
called a “cult” with good was, was atheistic and thus not a religion in the
theistic sense), but that was soon replaced by the Cult of the Supreme Being
(which was deistic, but not atheistic) during the Terror.

------
cjmcqueen
This is bad. I get that religion has taboos, but religion also has an
influence on morals. Yes, there are ways to be a good moral person without the
Bible, but are we really giving people agency and the ability to choose if
they are sensored? Human rights are human rights and as a human I should have
the right to obtain a Bible if I so chose and live the consequences there of.

~~~
gcb0
I think you mean "there are ways to be a good moral person even with the
Bible," ?

remember that every religion teaches intolerance to other beliefs. if not
directly by simply suggesting it is the only truth.

~~~
DeusExMachina
Apart from the fact that your statement is simply not true, every value
"discriminates" towards opposite values.

In every hierarchy, when you define something as better, you automatically
define something else as worse. That's how you make any decision in your life.
The alternative is inaction.

It has nothing to do with religion. It's an axiom of every value system.

------
GuiA
A friend of mine has a theory that as China grows in power, it will eventually
push its own alternative calendar as an ideological statement, as the calendar
we currently use is based on the birth of Jesus Christ, something the Chinese
government does not particularly care about.

~~~
794CD01
Have you and your friend never heard of Chinese new year? China already has
its own very popular calendar that predates the Gregorian.

~~~
rgbrenner
The Nationalist Party of China in the 1920s adopted the Gregorian calendar.
This is the group that the communists overthrew and they retreated to Taiwan
in 1949/50\. The communists never changed back... so the Chinese calendar is
only used for traditional chinese events (like the chinese new year).

This is part of the period in china known as the Century of Humiliation
(1839-1949)... which includes the invasions of western powers, opium wars,
etc.

------
galieos_ghost
For an authoritarian government to work long term they have to be the highest
power. This is why the Soviets worked so hard to destroy the church as well as
the concept of family, people who value god or family above the government are
a threat. In effect the government has to become god.

~~~
andy_ppp
Is this true? I always found it strange that the Kremlin literally has five
churches inside of it... I mean Communism and Christianity have a surprising
amount of commonality.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_communism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_communism)

~~~
galieos_ghost
Kremlin was first built in 1485, most churches were built well before the
soviet era.

As for persecution of clergy is true, I suppose it depends if you count mass
murder, torture, and shutting down churches as persecution

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-
religious_campaign_during...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-
religious_campaign_during_the_Russian_Civil_War)

