
Taiwan ban single-use plastic straws, plastic bags, disposable utensils by 2030 - jacksmith21006
https://www.hongkongfp.com/2018/02/22/taiwan-ban-single-use-plastic-drinking-straws-plastic-bags-disposable-utensils-entirely-2030/
======
technofiend
The UK dropped to _500 million_ bags annually used from _7 billion_ after
introduction of a 5 pence per bag charge. That's just one country albeit one
of the world's largest. Still I think we're over due for much more agressive
action.

[https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2016/jul/30/england-...](https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2016/jul/30/england-
plastic-bag-usage-drops-85-per-cent-since-5p-charged-introduced)

~~~
kentosi
Meanwhile when I moved here in New York I was shocked at the common practice
of "double bagging" where they literally put a plastic bag into another
plastic bag.

The argument being that 1 bag isn't strong enough.

~~~
cimmanom
It's dumb for light items, absolutely.

But New Yorkers tend to carry their groceries home in their hands for as far
as a mile, instead of wheeling them out in carts to a car trunk and then
carrying them 20 feet to the door of the house.

Heavy items (liquids and canned goods and stuff like potatoes) WILL tear
through plastic bags if not double bagged. The worst offenders are half
gallons of milk/juice, which have sharp corners.

This has happened to me more than once. I've also on occasion just made it
home with a bag that's seconds from splitting open.

And then you're half a mile from home with your groceries all over the
sidewalk and nothing to put them in.

~~~
dasv
At least in Europe, since the introduction of the bag surcharge, the new
plastic bags are thicker and much stronger. At most, they get punctured, but I
have never had one break open on me.

~~~
cimmanom
The grocery store I grew up shopping at (in NY) also had thicker bags, but
they were still vulnerable to punctures, which would turn into tears under the
wrong conditions. They used to put a paper bag (no handles) inside a plastic
bag (with handles) - which turns out to be super sturdy. You could carry
cannonballs in those things, except that you could feel the handles stretch
out after a few blocks.

------
TazeTSchnitzel
> uniform invoices – widely used in Taiwan

I wondered what this meant, so I looked it up:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uniform_Invoice_lottery](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uniform_Invoice_lottery)

To encourage businesses to report their earnings, Taiwan's tax authorities
operate a receipt lottery. Genius.

~~~
HumanDrivenDev
It's pretty common to buy something then be asked to pay 5% more if you want a
receipt - 5% being their sales tax.

~~~
gurkendoktor
I've experienced that kind of shenanigans in Vietnam, but never in Taiwan.
What did you buy?

~~~
HumanDrivenDev
Electronics

~~~
philliphaydon
I've never, ever, been asked to pay more for a receipt.

~~~
HumanDrivenDev
have you ever asked for a receipt where one hasn't been offered?

~~~
philliphaydon
Yes. And never heard of any additional cost.

~~~
HumanDrivenDev
Well you must go to classier places than I do (:

------
adamio
There's claims the plastic ban bag in San Diego led to a Hepatitis outbreak
[https://www.sandiegoreader.com/news/2017/sep/08/stringers-
pl...](https://www.sandiegoreader.com/news/2017/sep/08/stringers-plastic-bag-
ban-led-hep-health-crisis/)

~~~
greeneggs
Two economists have claimed that the ban in San Francisco led to an increase
in food-borne diseases. The proposed mechanism is that people don't wash their
reusable bags, and dangerous bacteria gets onto them. It isn't clear to me how
strong the evidence for this is.

[https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2013/02/16/is-
sa...](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2013/02/16/is-san-
franciscos-ban-on-plastic-bags-making-people-sick-perhaps-not/)

~~~
gnicholas
I’ve seen this also and have not seen any evidence to the contrary.
Considering how damning this study is to plastic bag bans, I’m guessing this
means there aren’t any studies that rebut these findings.

~~~
omegaworks
So we need studies now to tell you to occasionally clean the bags you put raw
meat into?

~~~
gnicholas
That’s one way to interpret the results. Alternatively, the study shows that
in the normal course of human behavior, plastic bag bans may have nontrivial
negative health impacts.

Also, it shows that in considering the carbon footprint of reusable bags, we
should factor in regular (not occasional) cleaning.

Considering that a reusable bag needs to be reused many (hundreds, if memory
serves) of times before reaching carbon neutrality versus single use plastic
bags, this is not necessarily a trivial impact.

~~~
omegaworks
Carbon neutrality is not the only metric by which we create these regulations.
Nor should it be. Single-use bags introduce many externalities that are
captured and controlled by imposing a minimal cost.

~~~
gnicholas
No one said it is the only metric. But it is a relevant one.

------
oldcynic
12 _years?_ 12 months seems plenty.

It's not like they need decades of research to _reintroduce_ paper straws,
paper bags and reusable bags.

Edit: I'm confused now.

 _" As of next year, food and beverage stores such as fast food chains must
stop providing plastic straws for in-store use. From 2020, free plastic straws
will be banned from all food and beverage outlets. From 2025, the public will
have to pay for takeaway plastic straws, and a blanket ban is to be imposed in
2030"_

They're banned free from 2020, but public have to pay from 2025? What happens
in between then?

~~~
leetcrew
paper straws really suck, please don't let them be the solution.

~~~
undersuit
What's the problem with paper straws?

~~~
jws
As I recall from my childhood, they get mushy if you dawdle too long with your
drink. They also are more prone to collapse if drinking a milkshake and you
deform a spot on the side mid-suck.

~~~
nugi
The newer ones are better, but can still colapse if left in a drink too long.

I never understood straws however. They bypass your tounge, thereby skipping
the whole point of a tasty drink, and nobody uses straws for water it seems.
It is very strange, and looks vaugely infintile to see an adult suckling in
public.

~~~
jws
I use them in cups when I drive or watch media. I don't have to tip up the cup
and block my field of view. I'm a fan of the plastic disposables. I used to
use permanent straws, but I got tired of having to wonder what was in my
biofilms. Now I reuse a disposable straw until I manage to buy a refill at a
gas station and get a new one.

------
neilni
Seeing some of comments about price.. just thought I can put more info here
since that's where I'm from and some points are not mentioned, especially the
previous plastic reduction effort by Taiwan started in 2002.

In 2002, the restriction on plastic bags that are thinner than 0.06mm was
imposed to all stores, but it was not a complete ban. Stores that offer
plastic bags thicker than 0.06mm need to charge customers. The idea behind
thicker bag is reusability. Two types of responses from stores: Stores started
providing thinner bag as long as they are bio-degradable (Link 1), or they
provide thicker bag as long as customers are charged. Customer's response:
Since 2002, 71.7 reduction in plastic bag use in supermarkets, and 43.4
reduction in plastic bag use in stores. (Link 2, Link 3)

And just a side note, Taipei started being more aggressive since 2000 by
charging garbage bags. You have to purchase government issued garbage bags if
you want to throw your garbage out of your house. (Mentioned in link 4)

Some links are in Chinese

Link 1: [http://e-info.org.tw/node/202363](http://e-info.org.tw/node/202363)

Link 2:
[http://www.epochtimes.com.tw/n176732/%E6%93%B4%E5%A4%A7%E9%9...](http://www.epochtimes.com.tw/n176732/%E6%93%B4%E5%A4%A7%E9%99%90%E5%A1%91%E6%94%BF%E7%AD%96-%E4%BB%98%E8%B2%BB%E5%A1%91%E8%86%A0%E8%A2%8B%E6%93%AC%E6%8F%90%E9%AB%98%E5%88%B05%E5%85%83.html)

Link 3: Similar to link 2 with different stats
[https://www.csmonitor.com/2004/0615/p07s02-woap.html](https://www.csmonitor.com/2004/0615/p07s02-woap.html)

Link 4:
[https://www.taiwannews.com.tw/en/news/3134910](https://www.taiwannews.com.tw/en/news/3134910)

~~~
ekianjo
> You have to purchase government issued garbage bags if you want to throw
> your garbage out of your house

That's the case in many countries - in Japan for example. (not government
issued but city-issued or prefecture-issued bags).

~~~
seanmcdirmid
Same is definitely true in Zurich, but not the rest of Switzerland.

------
rubenbe
I recently bought a set of reusable stainless steel straws. They were
expensive, but have a timeless "design" and have a build quality that gives
the impression they will last a lifetime.

When dirty I throw them in the dishwasher with the other cutleries. They don't
take any space in the washer so cleaning them is essentially "free". (Making
abstraction of the ecological cost of a dishwasher.)

~~~
emodendroket
I've read that a dishwasher is less wasteful than hand-washing of dishes
(perhaps this isn't true for people who are very, very scrupulous about their
use of water while washing dishes, but that's not most of us).

~~~
bluGill
Assuming you use the dishwasher correctly: you don't overload it, You don't
run it too empty, and you don't pre-wash/rinse your dishes. Fail either of the
above and a dishwaser uses more water.

When you overload the dishwasher things don't get clean and then you wash by
hand afterwards (in the case of pots/pans this might still be less water use
just because when hand washing you are likely to drain the filthy water half
way through)

I've seen people who scrub the food off by hand under running water before
putting it in the dish washer - they are clearly using more water since hand
washing plus rinsing the soap off is using less water than they use for the
rood rinse.

That said, I would not expect a dishwasher can actually wash the inside of
your straws so that is one of the things that should be reserved for hand
washing. If you use a minimal amount of water in your wash sink, and a minimal
amount of rinse water hand washing can be a low water use thing. Most people
leave the water running for longer than they need to for rinsing and this
wastes a lot of water.

~~~
ahartmetz
Arguments about water "consumption" (hint: it's still water afterwards - it
tends to clean itself if you didn't outright poison it and wait a bit) do not
apply in humid regions - saving water someplace else doesn't help regions with
water scarcity one bit. Berlin is an extreme example, they need to pump water
out of the ground in any case to prevent the area from reverting to a bog.

Hot water usually costs a lot of valuable energy though.

~~~
emodendroket
The world is going to have more, not fewer, dry regions where water must be
conserved over time.

------
dalbasal
You got to be at least a little cynical about 2030 date for something like
this. Why not 2020. This isn't electric cars. We don't need to think about
cost curves or 10 year product cycles.

~~~
hnrodey
There is a business and people impact to these types of decisions. Reducing
usage of anything means one or more businesses will cease to operate and
people will lose income. The government needs to afford these industries an
opportunity to adjust to the new regulations.

~~~
dalbasal
sure, presumably there are some people that _only_ make or deliver plastic
spoons. But, they aren't many.

Businesses will need to change practices. Supporting industries (regular
cutlery, dishwashers) need to adapt a little. There might be a little pain or
cost. Highly optimized workflows (eg McDonald's) a little more.

Generally, this is not that disruptive. Industry could adapt in 6 months, 18
months comfortably. Anything over two years is pointless.

No businesses will even think about this until 2028. Why bother with a tiny
change 12 years from now. It may not even come to pass.

Generally, I don't like long lead time for democratic considerations. It makes
accountability worse, and encourages political shenanigans. Decision makers
should be there when their decisions take effect.

------
mc32
As good as this will be for the environment and aesthetics, just have to think
the bubble tea vendors as well as regular green tea vendors who sell their
drinks in sealed containers to be pierced by a sharp straw are not going to be
fans of this ban.

~~~
mulmen
Those bubble teas come in a plastic cup with a plastic lid and then they give
you a plastic bag too! This will be a big change for a lot of vendors.

~~~
rocky1138
They should switch to a paper bag which is biodegradeable.

~~~
mc32
There are biodegradable[1] non traditional-plastic bags too. Might be more
expensive in the beginning.

[1][http://biobagusa.com/products/retail-
products/](http://biobagusa.com/products/retail-products/)

------
makecheck
Drinks taste better without straws anyway, and you can be satisfied with a
_lot_ less by sipping directly. I was amazed how easily I could gulp down some
32 oz. drink with a straw but when opening the lid and sipping I could be
perfectly happy with a tiny coffee-cup size.

~~~
antognini
I don't like straws myself, but they are better for your teeth since most
beverages are acidic and the straw allows the liquid to bypass your teeth.

~~~
lev99
I suspect we'll see the market for reusable straws increase in Taiwan.

~~~
gurkendoktor
I have no numbers but I suspect that's already happening. I saw several people
carry these reusable cups for drinks around last year (it seemed almost like a
fad, but I hope it lasts):

[https://www.rakuten.com.tw/search/冰霸杯/](https://www.rakuten.com.tw/search/冰霸杯/)

Buying a reusable straw seems like the obvious next step.

Many shops also give a 3% or so discount to people who bring their own cup.

------
satoshed
Morocco is already actively banning plastic bags since 2016.

www.aljazeera.com/amp/news/2016/07/green-morocco-bans-plastic-
bags-160701141919913.html

~~~
Mediterraneo10
According to rumor, this was an initiative of the king who was unhappy with
the immense amount of litter across the countryside. Conventional plastic bags
have been replaced by fiber bags that, I guess, are biodegradable eventually,
but I do wonder if their creation generates just as much CO2. Plus, every
single shopkeeper will give you a new-style bag (or three) for free; no one is
being encouraged to reuse bags.

~~~
fvdessen
Last time I was in countryside Morocco, the waste management program consisted
in dumping all your trash in the street and let the wind take care of it.
There was indeed lots of plastic litter flying around. Looks like banning
plastic bags is a good start but they have bigger challenges to tackle when it
comes to environmental pollution.

------
nmridul
Surprisingly Singapore, a developed country with Budget surplus, and that
which can afford a plastic ban, is no where in any list. And the plastic bag
use is extreme here.

[1] [http://www.straitstimes.com/opinion/3-billion-plastic-
bags-a...](http://www.straitstimes.com/opinion/3-billion-plastic-bags-a-year-
cut-use-with-mandatory-tax)

------
fvdessen
What is the rationale ? Are disposable plastic bags really that much worse
than reusable / paper bags ? From what I understand plastic waste is usually
burned for electricity or heat in industrial processes, and it's not that much
worse than natural gas.

~~~
hannob
> From what I understand plastic waste is usually burned for electricity or
> heat in industrial processes,

Except for the ones that end up in the ocean:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Pacific_garbage_patch](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Pacific_garbage_patch)

~~~
fvdessen
The plastic that ends up in the ocean comes from places & countries that have
no waste management at all besides dumping garbage directly in rivers and the
ocean. I doubt that's the case for Taiwan.

~~~
craftyguy
I was in Taiwan a couple years ago doing a beach cleanup, plastics (bags, etc)
most definitely make it into the water there.

~~~
wnissen
Right, but most of them are getting landfilled at the worst, right? As I
understand it, the majority of the garbage is coming from countries that have
no commercial-scale waste disposal except ocean dumping.

~~~
always_good
Well, if we're guessing, surely developed nations produce an order of
magnitude more waste in general. Just like the average American consumers more
energy than everyone else.

~~~
fvdessen
We don't have to guess, according to this source, 98% of marine litter comes
from outside Europe & US [1].

[1]
[https://www.marinelitterthefacts.com/sources](https://www.marinelitterthefacts.com/sources)

~~~
craftyguy
Taiwan is outside Europe and the US. So that statistic doesn't really help
prove the point that most of the trash in the ocean around Taiwan is from
other countries that dump straight into the ocean.

------
jamesrcole
Does anyone know of a deeply-argued argument against the use of plastics like
these?

Don't take this question as meaning that I believe such an argument doesn't
exist, or that I think they shouldn't be banned. I'm currently agnostic on the
matter, because I don't feel I know enough about it.

I tend to only hear shallowly-argued reasons for banning these things (which
doesn't mean their conclusions are wrong).

~~~
picodguyo
Plastics are polluting and poisoning the oceans:

[https://www.ft.com/content/30b30b1e-004a-11e8-9650-9c0ad2d7c...](https://www.ft.com/content/30b30b1e-004a-11e8-9650-9c0ad2d7c5b5)

~~~
jamesrcole
I can't read that article (says a subscription is required). Plastics may be
polluting and poisoning the oceans, but

\- what exactly is the source of those plastics? I saw someone else in this
thread claim that it was from countries with poor waste management. So is
banning use of those plastics in certain countries actually going to help? Is
better waste management a better solution?

\- evaluating any proposal means doing a cost/benefit analysis of it and the
alternatives. So some plastics from some sources contribute to that pollution
and poisoning. But how much better or worse are the alternatives to banning
them?

See what I mean about shallow vs deep arguments for proposed solutions?

------
DoreenMichele
I hate seeing these extremist bans. I was homeless in California when the bag
ban went into effect. Following hot on the heels of the bag ban a hepatitis
epidemic broke out in Southern California. I believe these two things are
related.

I have a permanently compromised immune system. Reusing bags is problematic
for me. However, I use grocery bags as trash bags. I almost never buy trash
bags. This has basically been true my entire adult life. I bet a lot of people
reusing grocery bags are buying trash bags separately.

I am very concerned that when we outright ban disposable bags and utensils we
create a health risk that may go unrecognized.

Using metal straws and trying to clean them between uses strikes me as very
problematic. That strikes me as a tremendous opportunity to foster antibiotic
resistant infections.

I really wish the world would stop and wonder why such products are so popular
instead of decrying them as clearly lazy and evil and no-good-nik. Because I
fear that a lot of people will mysteriously die of illness and wondering if
there is a connection to the ban of disposable items will mark you as a loony.

~~~
okreallywtf
First, are you seriously suggesting that they were popular for the reasons
that you personally prefer them?

Second, even if it did cause an outbreak what does that tell us about how
endemic hepatitis was already? Is that not an issue already that it was all
around us such that simply changing the habits of our shopping bags could
cause this problem? It sounds like there is a deeper issue that needs to be
addressed.

I'm sympathetic to your particular issues and I hope that there is an
acceptable middleground for people with your situation but these seem like
some serious edge cases to me. That is not to say that I expect you to have to
suffer because you are an "edge case", but I don't see why we can't
essentially ban something that is a problem overall while still finding a way
to protect your health needs.

~~~
DoreenMichele
_First, are you seriously suggesting_

This is not good faith engagement.

 _Second, even if it did cause an outbreak_

I didn't say it caused an outbreak. I believe there are likely multiple
contributing factors. But the epidemic disproportionately impacts the homeless
population. For homeless people, paying 10 cents a bag is a serious hardship.
Bags go from being a free courtesy item that enhances their life to yet
another financial burden when money is already a serious problem. There are
multiple factors that then make bags a potential vector for disease for the
homeless.

The bag ban in California is aimed at injecting a facade of sustainability
into the upper class lives of people who have no plans to give up their cars
and big houses. It puts a big burden on people who lack either a car or a home
or both. It is the people walking or taking public transit who most need a bag
to carry their stuff. But, no, the US has no plans to improve public transit.

The only thing I am suggesting is that the discussion should be more nuanced.
I see no reason why such a suggestion ought to be dismissed as unreasonable.

------
pbhjpbhj
I understand the need to change approaches and for companies to move to other
manufacturing, etc., but 12 years??

Two years seems about right?

I always wonder when there's a long implementation period before requirements
take hold if that's a politician making sure they don't have to handle the
fallout but can still wallow in the glory.

~~~
ragtag2
You don't mess with the Taiwanese bubble tea. Seriously, they use one hell of
a lot of plastic crap in Taiwan for takeouts but a lot of people also carry
their own utensils, for various reasons.

Agree, 2 years should be plenty. I'd stretch to 5 but in 12 we'll all be
drowning in the stuff.

~~~
Quenty
Ah, this is why carry out is allowed to have plastic for an extra 5 years.

------
toomanybeersies
Maybe it's an anecdote, but I've noticed that over the past year or two, most
bars and clubs have stopped giving me a straw by default and instead I'd
either had to grab one from the jar or ask for one.

This is good, I don't need or want a straw in my drink. Even with the
introduction of bamboo straws they should keep this policy. Obviously there
are reasons to want a straw, such as wearing lipstick or having sensitive
teeth, but for lots of us it's unnecessary.

~~~
SnowingXIV
Saves the business money since they don't have to buy as many. But yeah, I
actually really enjoy straws and need them (protein shake with a beard kinda
requires one). I use them often but would have no problem if they were made
out of something less environmentally damaging.

------
lwhi
Kind of feels like a lot of governments are starting to make promises they
won't be around to keep .. good for headlines support / minimal effort
required.

------
kuon
I agree for the bags, the cups... but not the straws. I am not going to give
steel straws to my kids. They are dangerous (no more walking while drinking),
hard to clean, heavy, they can't play with it... But it's not because I use
plastic straw that I don't reuse them, a "disposable straw" usually last
nearly a week if the are not used with something hard to clean like syrup or
milk.

As for the bag side of things, we use PET bags [1] here in Switzerland, which
lasts between 6 months and a year. They where even available for free at some
point. Not even mentioning the environment, those bags are highly superior to
plastic bags, bigger, easier to handle and much more robust.

[1]:
[https://img.coopathome.ch/produkte/880_880/RGB/1012284_001.j...](https://img.coopathome.ch/produkte/880_880/RGB/1012284_001.jpg?_=1454707905335)

~~~
ddebernardy
Try showing your kid a video of a straw being pulled out of a sea turtle's
nose. Assuming they're as sensitive as most kids are, they'll instantly grok
what the problem is and refuse to ever use a plastic straw from that point
onward.

~~~
kuon
Just dispose of the straw properly.

------
jaysoncena
At least major cities and provinces in Philippines started banning plastic
bags, styrofoams and disposable, plastic utensils since 2012

[http://plasticbagbanreport.com/category/world-
news/philippin...](http://plasticbagbanreport.com/category/world-
news/philippines/)

------
maxcameron
My wife and I started a business built around helping people reduce the amount
of single-use plastic they send to landfill. The zero waste movement is
growing super fast. [https://wildminimalist.com](https://wildminimalist.com)
if anyone is interested.

------
oevi
Here is a suprisingly comprehensive list of countries which have programs to
reduce plastic bags: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phase-
out_of_lightweight_plast...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phase-
out_of_lightweight_plastic_bags)

------
patosai
I think the banning of disposable utensils will be hard to adopt given how big
the restaurant/night market scene is in Taiwan. I doubt many people will want
to carry steel straws, chopsticks, or forks. When you want to go get food, do
you want to think about what food you want? Or what utensil and container you
need to bring? It's far more convenient to just provide a utensil there.

There's a post on reddit which basically sums it up -
[https://www.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/7zbjdj/taiwan_to...](https://www.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/7zbjdj/taiwan_to_ban_singleuse_plastic_drinking_straws/dun7n2q/)

~~~
user5994461
The same can be made with paper or cardboard.

~~~
patosai
I see how paper/cardboard containers would work, but how does a cardboard
straw or fork work? Wooden chopsticks are mainstream but a certain thickness
is required for strength, which you can't get in a straw or fork. Plus they
lose strength when they get wet, so now you need to add some coating to
protect them. But then that destroys recyclability which destroys the point of
using such a material.

------
mgeorgoulo
As of 2018, Greece charges €0.04 / bag.

Albeit very effective, I don't know how to feel about the actual contents of
my new multi-use bag.

Almost every food item is packed in a single-use plastic package. It certainly
seems that those are a greater concern than the plastic bags.

------
fpgaminer
If I'm remembering correctly from my trip to Taiwan a few years ago, free
plastic bags were already banned. At least at the stores I was going to. You
had to pay a small fee to get a bag. (Was also interesting encountering the
lotto receipts!)

------
jamespitts
I see it in effect there now already; people are buying and carrying around
these collapsable silicone cups and cute cloth cup-holder things. Like a lot
of things in Taiwan (particularly if related to food), it seems to have gotten
trendy.

------
troyvit
By 2030 wow. Great. Flying cars and disposable utensils coming in the same
year.

~~~
ibdf
2030 seems far, but it's better than no deadline. I believe they give so many
years to make this change, to allow manufactures to make adjustments and
changes to their machinery without hurting jobs.

------
okreallywtf
Just to play devils advocate on this, this isn't very free market. How is this
not clearly choosing winners and losers? What about the plastic bag producing
companies and their shareholders? The government is choosing multi-use bag
makers over single use bag makers.

I feel like this is "common sense" enough that people don't fight it, but if
it is a more complex (and more important) issue like climate change and
banning polluting power sources, it all the sudden becomes an ideological and
philosophical issue and we have to just wait until the economics are just
right to see whether we'll survive or not.

Why can't we treat polluting our air and water in the same way? Just because
we don't have to see the pollution blowing around the roadway we aren't going
to worry about it?

~~~
viggity
what is the environmental cost of staying in the hospital? Coliform bacteria
are found in half of reusable bags and E. Coli are found in 12%.

Reusable bags weigh 40-50 grams, one time use bags are 6 grams. I'm for
finding bio-degradable plastic replacements, not because they take up landfill
space (who cares, landfills are very safe), but more for the bags/plastics
that don't find their way to the landfill.

~~~
SllX
I have a few cloth bags I cycle through. A few small ones that I carry around
in my pocket, and a few larger ones that I use if I need to make a large run
to the supermarket, which honestly is pretty rare nowadays because I tend to
just pickup a few items at a time as needed.

Every week, whatever bags I've used get thrown in with the rest of the laundry
that I would still be doing anyway, and they don't push my loads so high that
I find myself doing more laundry than I otherwise would.

One time use bags get maybe two or three uses tops whether paper or plastic,
but I've been using the same cloth bags for about 10 years, and I'll probably
still be using the same set of bags or close to it in 10 more years. Maybe by
then I'll be married to someone that knows her way around a sewing needle
and/or machine to deal with any potential wear and tear.

So I don't know mate, what's the environmental cost of tossing your bags in
the laundry with the rest? It's not nothing, but its probably better than the
mass manufacturing, shipping, distributing, disposing of and/or recycling (in
a best case scenario) of "one-time" use bags, and certainly better than
staying in the hospital because you don't bother to wash your bags.

------
wybiral
I live in Austin, Texas and we have a ban on single-use plastic bags. People
just have to bring reusable bags when they go shopping or pay extra.

It did seem to cut down on the number of bags you see littered about.

~~~
billsmithaustin
Enjoy it while you can. The Texas executive branch is trying to reverse that
ban, along with every other single-use plastic bag ban imposed at the city
level. See [https://www.texastribune.org/2018/01/11/texas-plastic-bag-
ba...](https://www.texastribune.org/2018/01/11/texas-plastic-bag-bans-
threatened-supreme-court-challenge-laredo-ordin/).

~~~
wybiral
Well, Texas...

------
stickfigure
Does this include those newfangled biodegradable straws and utensils?

------
devy
> “You can use steel products, or edible straws – or maybe you just don’t need
> to use straws at all,” he said. “There is no inconvenience caused at all.”

This is debatable. I've definitely heard dentists recommending using straws to
drink sodas to reduce the acidic decay effect on front teeth (basically just
prevent the teeth from exposing the to harmful liquids). [1]

[1]: [https://www.webmd.com/oral-health/news/20050617/sipping-
soda...](https://www.webmd.com/oral-health/news/20050617/sipping-soda-through-
straw-cut-cavities#1)

~~~
jonwachob91
Dentist also recommend not drinking soda at all. You're argument also assumes
everyone drinks soda all the time.

~~~
devy
1\. "You're argument" should be "Your argument".

2\. No, my argument is not assuming anything - that's why I said "debatable"
not "incorrect". At least for some of the soda drinkers like myself, we prefer
sipping with a straw - but probably a steel straw preferably now.

------
ethagnawl
The number of plastic straws I see discarded in my local park (Prospect Park
in Brooklyn, NY) is _astounding_. I wish New York City would enact a tax/ban.

------
zboogie
Bisbee, a town in Southern Arizona, recently saw its popularly approved of
plastic bag ban overturned by the AZ state legislature.

------
desireco42
Kind of a long time frame for this change. I could get 2020, but why 2030?!

I see, they will stop giving them for free and 2030 is total ban.

------
preben
Are there alternatives to single-use plastic straws? I don't see many multi-
use ditos.

------
kazinator
> single-use plastic straws

People will resort to single-use cleaning implements to wash their straws.

------
lurker79
Good to see that China is taking a step against plastics and is becoming more
green

------
emilfihlman
What's a non-single-use straw?

------
jlebrech
Looks like people will be carrying little handbags around (to hold cutlery) or
renting a straw from a vending machine you can return the item to. or even
biodegradable bamboo straws.

~~~
jlebrech
or what about using pottery and throwing them into a special bin and getting a
satisfying crash.

------
M_Bakhtiari
Has nobody thought of marketing straw straws?

~~~
goda90
Looks like they have: [https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/strawstraws/straw-
straw...](https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/strawstraws/straw-straws)
[http://www.harveststraws.com/](http://www.harveststraws.com/)
[http://www.strawbystraw.com/](http://www.strawbystraw.com/)

~~~
M_Bakhtiari
Neat, but none of those seem to ever be able to scale enough to be able to
completely replace plastic straws.

I wonder if a cutting bar and reel system can be made that can cut and bundle
the straw on the fly as the grain is harvested.

------
cultureulterior
Great job making the world worse.

~~~
emodendroket
The least charitable possible interpretation is they're making Taiwan worse to
make the world better.

------
debt
I find it hilarious that California is attempting to pass similar legislation
with about a ~$2 billion price tag yet there’s people living in tent cities
from Oakland to San Francisco down to LA with San Diego actually building a
tent housing complex in a a parking lot.

------
randomerr
The Law of Unintended Consequences will:

* Put companies out of business that produce or import said goods

* Reducing availability and increasing cost of medical goods that use plastic because the aforementioned companies no longer exist or are importing products

* Put pressure on manufactures to use alternate materials (bamboo and glass most likely) causing shortages and rising cost

This in the long run is going to put an overall strain on on the country that
is going to drive commerce away and make a black market. Just look at place
that bans or places a sin taxes on certain products.

Soda Tax in New York that made people go to New Jersey:

[https://nypost.com/2014/06/26/highest-court-in-ny-refuses-
to...](https://nypost.com/2014/06/26/highest-court-in-ny-refuses-to-reinstate-
big-soda-ban/)

Bicycle Tax added because people stopped using cars because of another tax so
a new tax had to replace the car tax:

[https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2017/jul/17/first-
bicyc...](https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2017/jul/17/first-bicycle-tax-
nation-deflates-oregon-riders/)

~~~
oldcynic
_> Put companies out of business that produce or import said goods_

Tough. Don't go into business ruining the environment. Similar closures would
have happened in asbestos, coal, tetraethyl lead additives and plenty of other
things we've discovered are a _very bad idea._

 _> Reducing availability and increasing cost of medical goods_

That's quite a leap - do you have a source?

Scotland is banning _all_ plastic straws from end of next year. I sincerely
doubt there is going to be a black market as a result.

~~~
ksk
That applies to computers and all of the other un-repairable ewaste generating
electronics. All purchases of smartphones, laptops, in fact pretty much all of
bestbuy would fall in that category. Can we get a ban on those too?

[https://ifixit.org/ewaste](https://ifixit.org/ewaste)

~~~
emodendroket
I'd argue that disposable bags, disposable straws, disposable chopsticks, and
the like are in a different category because there is a ready alternative
which is not particularly onerous to use.

~~~
ksk
You're quite right. But, how many tech people do you think are willing to
inconvenience themselves with a heavy laptop or a bulky smartphone if it meant
that they were repairable? My opinion is that the vast majority will continue
to line up to buy the latest shiny use-and-throw bauble from TechCompanyX,
while railing against coal and plastics. I'm just against the "Do as I say,
not as I do" mindset.

~~~
emodendroket
Are tech people uniquely unlikely to use plastic bags? I don't really
understand the logic here, and a laptop that is appreciably worse seems like
the wrong analogy to a canvas bag.

