
Litvinenko post-mortem 'probably most dangerous ever' - gedrap
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-31020466
======
tr352
I'm not a specialist but I don't see how this is so dangerous. Polonium-210,
the poison used in this case, has a half life of 138 days and decays into
stable Pb-206. So whatever was there has been halved about 20 times.
Furthermore, alpha decay is relatively harmless (unless ingested).

~~~
mikecsh
This is an inquiry examining events before and after his death in 2006. The
post mortem (autopsy) would have been done shortly after his death.

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rdtsc
His biggest mistake was not ending up in US. Russia has never (at least that
we publicly know) assassinated anyone in US, or US in Russia for that matter.

From an evil dictator point view killing defectors in horrible ways does make
sense. It is also imperative that everyone knows who did it but hopefully
without there being a clear way of factually proving it.

This wasn't just simple revenge this was a message to other agents who might
have thoughts about defecting.

~~~
osipov
#BlamePutin is a knee jerk reaction that will get you upvotes amongst the fans
of Western media. Of course for you Putin is an evil dictator despite the fact
that no proof exists that he ordered an assassination of anyone, while Obama,
the Nobel Peace Prize winning leader of the "Free World" police states,
legally kills people with drone strikes. Warped values in my opinion.

~~~
ajuc
Please.

1\. dictator

Putin is de facto ruler of Russia since 2000. He changed consitution to allow
him to still be in power. He shut down free press, introduced laws persecuting
minorities (homosexuals for example), was involved in election falsification.

2\. evil

Putin annexed part of Ukraine (Crimea), his army is occupying other parts of
it (Lughansk and Donetsk) and invading further west. Russian army is also in
parts of Moldova and Georgia against their will.

The fact that Americans aren't always the good guys change nothing. I can show
you many bad guys, this doesn't mean we should stop naming them.

The fact that he has huge support in Russia also change nothing - Hitler had
huge support too (especially after sucessfull campaigns).

Putin is evil dictator and should be stopped.

~~~
osipov
>The fact that Americans aren't always the good guys change nothing. I can
show you many bad guys, this doesn't mean we should stop naming them.

The issue is that you are applying your moral outrage selectively, against
Putin but not against Obama, although Obama is objectively and provably
committing atrocities above and beyond what Putin is doing. But Putin is the
one getting all the bad rep from your media and you are content to
uncritically recite their propaganda. Your selective moral outrage is as bad
as French using laws that restrict free speech directed against Jews but not
against Muslims.

~~~
tr352
Putin with his actions has brought a nasty war to the doorstep of the western
world. His actions are perceived (both in the US and EU) as harmful to the
stability and peace in the western world. A stability and peace that took huge
amounts of effort and time to be built. Putins actions are believed to go
against every principle on which this stability is based: democracy,
cooperation, no redrawing of maps (especially not without consensus), no
raking up of old claims and disputes, etcetera.

Now, you may not agree with all this (you probably don't) but you should
understand that lecturing on the selectiveness of moral outrage is not going
to change the fact that this is how current events are perceived in the west.

~~~
osipov
>Putin with his actions has brought a nasty war to the doorstep of the western
world

Putin's point of view is that US brought a violent and dangerous regime to the
doorstep of the Russian world. Sounds like this isn't a starting point for a
discussion.

>Putins actions are believed to go against every principle on which this
stability is based

Putin's point of view is that Russia has no seat at the table that decides
what are the global governance principles and what is the Western consensus.
Further Western actions in Ukraine, Libya, Syria, Kosovo have been interpreted
by Putin as harmful to stability and peace of the Russian world. Bottom line
both West and Russia have different narratives of the past 10-20 years. The
problem of the West is that it doesn't admit the validity of alternative
narratives (i.e. unipolar world) while Russians understand both their own
narrative and the Western narrative. Further, Russians are more effective than
Westerners at winning the hearts and minds of those who don't belong to the
"golden billion". I agree with you that ultimately this is a war of
perceptions. I think it is one that the West is losing because the
contradictions of its narrative are surfacing very quickly.

Here's an example of where US is running scared of Russia's effectiveness in
media space: [http://rt.com/news/225543-rt-isis-us-
broadcaster/](http://rt.com/news/225543-rt-isis-us-broadcaster/)

~~~
ajuc
Timothy Snyder (historian, famous for the "Bloodlands: Europe Between Hitler
and Stalin" book) has nice speech about Russian-Ukrainian conflict, and he
describes the philosophy Russian use in recent propaganda as "applied
postmodernism".

It (this "applied postmodernism") starts with the assumption that truth
doesn't exists, and goes to prove that all possible narratives are as good as
any other, so don't criticize us, let us do what we want in our backyard
(including ex-soviet countries).

You do the same in most of your comments.

I highly recommend his speech:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eKFObB6_naw](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eKFObB6_naw)

Starts with short history of Ukraine but it's very short and most western
viewers need it to understand anything anyway.

The fragment about applied postmodernism starts at 44:00 but it's worth
listening through the whole thing - a lot of insights (and some that you
probably will agree with, even if you won't share the conclusions).

~~~
osipov
The "truth doesn't exist" models has nothing to do with modern Russian
philosophy. In fact the most common refrain today in Russia is based on
Nevsky's quote of "God is truth". However, the same culture recognizes that
while truth exists, it is fleeting, fragile, and is easily corrupted as soon
at it becomes a subject of discourse within a society. The root of the
conflict between West and Russia today is deeper than superficial slogans
about who shot down MH17 or overthrew the Ukrainian government. West and
Russia are fighting over whether the existing dollar based financial system
will stay around or disappear. The virtual battles over Ukraine, Syria, and
terrorism are just a sideshow to the deeper game.

~~~
tr352
> The "truth doesn't exist" models has nothing to do with modern Russian
> philosophy.

But it does with Russian propaganda. See for example all the different
unfounded and unrelated theories and insinuations that RT spread around after
the MH17 downing, such as "Ukraine had BUKs too", "It was Ukraine thinking it
was Putins presidential plane" and "why didn't Ukraine close off the
airspace?" Now, is that serious journalism? The sole purpose of that was to
confuse people and instill in them the idea that the truth about MH17 will
never be known.

> The root of the conflict between West and Russia today is deeper than
> superficial slogans about who shot down MH17 <snip>

Many things can be said about what you're saying but I won't and I'll stop you
here. 300 innocent civilians (mainly Dutch, Malaysian and British) died a
horrible death due to this dirty war and evidence is overwhelming that it was
done using Russian weapons by Russian or Russia-supported soldiers, in a dirty
war that is fueled (at least materially) mainly by the Kremlin. Your claim
that this is about "superficial slogans" is telling. Yes, many more people
have died and yes, on the grand scale of things, 300 casualties is peanuts.
But in the west these things are taken seriously and will not be forgotten.
MH17 and the aftermath is one of the growing number of red lines that Putin
crossed, and Russia will have to pay the price for this. Again, you may not
agree but these red lines do exist and it's not up to you or Putin to decide
that they don't. I feel sorry for the Russian people, but I have no sympathy
for a Putin apologist who believes the MH17 event is about superficial
slogans.

------
spacefight
It's sickening to see what people are able to do to other people.

------
akavel
From related linked story at
[http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-30929940](http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-30929940)
\- "Timeline: Alexander Litvinenko death case":

 _" 22 July [2014]_

 _A public inquiry into Mr Litvinenko 's death is announced by UK Home
Secretary Theresa May. It is due to conclude by the end of 2015."_

So, it seems that the investigation is still ongoing!

------
diyorgasms
So, Litvinenko was allegedly working with MI6 after leaving the KGB (and
Russia). This seems more like spycraft than a politically motivated
assassination.

That being said, this case makes me wonder if political assassinations also
occur in Western politics, or if the killing of dissidents is mostly an
Eastern Bloc thing.

~~~
ajuc
> This seems more like spycraft than a politically motivated assassination.

Why would you poison somebody with polonium of all things, if not to send a
message "don't defect or else"?

If "they" wanted him gone quietly almost all other solutions are cheaper,
easier and less risky than polonium. Starting with organising a car accident.

BTW why wrtie "eastern block" if you only have example from 1 country (namely
Russia)?

It's not like eastern block countries are similar to each other (except for 50
years of history ending 25 years ago). Compare Belarus, Estonia, Moldova and
Czech Republic - completely different cultures, political systems.

~~~
justincormack
Well there was the Bulgarian ricin-in-umbrella tip case too
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgi_Markov](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgi_Markov)
\- also in London.

------
peterbraden
Why would this be more dangerous than say a virus post-mortem with, ie, Ebola?

~~~
celticninja
radiation can penetrate PPE that would stop ebola.

~~~
vinkelhake
Polonium is an alpha emitter and such radiation is readily blocked by PPE (or
a piece of paper, or skin).

It _is_ dangerous if you get it into your body where the alpha radiation will
mess things up.

------
antocv
Why is this resurgence of Litvinenko posts in the western media?

~~~
mikecsh
An inquiry is being heard to review the case.

~~~
Ma8ee
And they have decided to review the case because they don't have any good
relationship with the Russians to preserve any more.

