
Uber announces suspension of UberPOP in France - graeham
http://uk.reuters.com/article/2015/07/03/us-france-uber-idUKKCN0PD0Y320150703
======
com_kieffer
The reaction to UberPop in France has been shameful. Taxi drivers have been
attacking UberPop drivers for weeks, following and harassing them. They even
posted videos of themselves attacking UberPop drivers and their cars on
youtube on facebook.

The latest outburst of violence saw taxi drivers blocking access to airports
in Paris forcing passengers to walk the remainder of the way. Overturning and
torching cars that looked like they might be Ubers. There was even a video of
taxi drivers on a bridge on the "periphérique", the motorway that goes around
Paris, dropping bricks on cars underneath.

The government instead of punishing them bowed down almost immediately ...

Part of the problem is that striking is sacrosanct in France. If you're
striking you can get away with almost anything like kidnapping your employer
and holding him hostage or blocking a major port for days on end (MyFerryLink
strikes) ...

~~~
kuschku
Well, we in Germany got the same result (UberPOP getting banned) by using,
well, calmer methods.

We fixed it by telling them if they want to provide personal transport
services, they have to adhere to the laws about that – insurance, a special
drivers license, etc.

~~~
danieldk
But that doesn't work that well in practice. E.g. UberPop was declared illegal
by a Dutch judge in December. They just continued, paying the fines when
drivers are found to be in violation.

While the violence in France is inexcusable, I can understand the frustration
when you are competing with some company that has such deep pockets that are
above the law. It's completely unfair competition (other taxi drivers need
insurances, registration, etc), robbing existing taxi drivers of their
livelihood.

(Yes, I am in favor of disruption in the taxi market, but with a level playing
field, and guaranteed insurance for taxi customers.)

~~~
kuschku
Well, due to them repeatedly ignoring the law and just paying the fine, the
courts in Germany increased the fines: 230k EUR per trip taken.

That’s one of the best ways to keep the market fair.

~~~
dylanjermiah
"Keep the market fair" That's not their concern. It's protecting the taxi
cartel by outlawing a superior method of transportation. Keeping the market
"fair" would allow competition.

~~~
kuschku
Well, the market allows competition. If it plays by the existing rules.

Anyone can provide a chauffeur for hire service, even without a taxi license –
you just need a special insurance and a special drivers license that permits
you to transport people.

Many competitors of uber did the same.

uber was the only one who tried to operate without insurance, without the
drivers license for chauffeurs, taxi and bus drivers.

------
Furzel
Uber POP has been against the law for one year now, this was bound to happen.
Even if what the Taxis did is insanely wrong and should be condemned, Uber POP
is illegal according to the french law and even trendy tech startups have to
obey the law.

It's now up to all the actors to find a way to make this work.

~~~
mckoss
Why aren't French entrepreneurs rioting in the streets to protest against
protectionist laws that primarily serve to shield incumbents from competition?

~~~
jacquesm
> French entrepreneurs

France doesn't have as many start-up guys and girls as you probably think and
besides that they probably do not feel that uberpop is entirely without blame
in how this all played out.

And if they start rioting they end up in jail.

------
aikah
For those who want a TLDR :

UberPOP is LEGAL in France, nobody has shut down UberPOP.

HOWEVER :

\- A driver who wants to drive for UberPOP can do that, BUT it has to follow
the french laws which means: paying a specific amount of taxes on their
revenue, getting a 250 hours training, paying for a specific insurance

Of course, driving legally for UberPOP in France IS NOT PROFITABLE at all.

Uber can't have it both ways. It cannot fix prices for rides and expect legal
drivers to work and make a profit with these prices.

Other services such as private limousines can continue, they are legal, as
long as drivers operate legally.

UberPOP business model cannot work in France. But they are free to provide and
distribute their app. The app is legal.

~~~
stefantalpalaru
Do the drivers also need taxi licenses? They don't release them any more, so
the only way to get one is to buy it for 6 figures on the gray market from a
licensed driver wanting to retire (in theory it can't be sold, but there are
workarounds and loopholes).

~~~
seren
No need of a taxi license, "car rental with Chauffeur" is legal, and has
existed for ages. The only difference with a taxi is that you are supposed to
book them in advance, and you can't just hail them. (And their might be some
other restrictions around airport or something..)

But if you hire a chauffeur (with his car), he needs to have the proper
insurance to cover him and its passenger. Uber drivers actually must and have
subscribed to them.

The issue with _Uberpop_ is that most of its drivers don't have subscribed to
that special insurance, and as a results are pushing the cost to everyone
else.

As a regular driver, I would be quite unhappy if there was like 50k+ plus
Uberpop driving all day long full of passengers, and if they were paying the
same amount of money than an occasional driver, while being much more likely
to have costly crashes.

Hence the reason to require that UberPop drivers have a proper transportation
insurance in the first place.

Aside of any fairness, or legacy medallion system consideration, it is just a
bad idea economically to have everyone paying higher insurance costs so that
UberPop can reap all the benefits...

------
danieltillett
My major complaint about uber is how it externalises its costs. Things like
insurance. The risk profile is not the same when carrying passenger as for
private travel. When an uber driver decides to forgo getting the correct
insurance they are pushing their extra risk on to me and the rest of the
people in the private travel insurance pool.

More long term uber shares a lot of similarities to napster. The music
industry was never able to unscramble the egg after napster and the taxi
industry is in the same position. Of course if you are an investor in uber
your investment probably has the same long term value as napster.

~~~
prostoalex
You can always go for a higher class vehicle. UberBlack providers usually have
all the licenses, insurances and permits that are necessary. They know it's a
reputation business, many of them use Uber as one of many lead generators, and
therefore don't want the risk to the remainder of their business.

~~~
danieltillett
I should have been more precise and said uber x rather than just uber.
UberBlack is a fine business, the problem is it is not what is sustaining the
current valuation of uber.

------
crdb
I'm surprised nobody has yet commented on WHY they are shutting down tonight.

From [1]: "We have decided to suspend UberPOP starting tonight [...] first and
foremost to _protect our drivers_ ." \- Thibaud Simphal, CEO Uber France

Translation: "this is supposed to be a developed country with the rule of law,
but the police is not capable of doing its job (or willing), so we're giving
up".

Another pearl: "Since the first of January, only 215 new VTC [licenses for
private cars, the so called "legal" way of becoming an UberX] licenses were
given out in the whole of France, even though during the same period, we had
over 25,000 applicants at Uber to become a VTC driver."

That's a 0.86% success rate. I'm sure those 215 cars were the absolute limit
the market (of ~60 million inhabitants, with 400,000 passengers already using
UberPOP) could bear and that the decision is not at all politically motivated.

[1] [http://www.lemonde.fr/economie/article/2015/07/03/uber-
annon...](http://www.lemonde.fr/economie/article/2015/07/03/uber-annonce-la-
suspension-d-uberpop-en-france_4669011_3234.html)

~~~
GFK_of_xmaspast
Personally I would have thought it had to do with the fact that uber
executives are getting arrested.

------
rmc
Looks like the unions disrupted Uber's business model.

~~~
afsina
I think the opposite happened.

------
Fede_V
I really dislike the protectionist barriers that exist to keep competition
away from taxis, pharmacies, etc... but the people that are currently in those
jobs often got themselves into a massive amount of debt to buy a license.

We should get rid of the old system, but we cannot simply tell the people who
invested 100,000+ Euros into a license that it's just become worthless. Should
those people just kill themselves?

~~~
srj
I'm not sure how it is in France, but in some cities a few large firms own the
taxi licenses and rent them out to drivers. The people who buy them do so as
an investment, speculating that because of their scarcity that the resale
value will rise. Not all investments pan out. If the citizens want to bail
them out they could offer to buy back the licenses.

------
jacky_chan
>> Part of the problem is that striking is sacrosanct in France.

Yea, like complaining about other country's problems is sacrosanct in the USA.

Taxi drivers in Europe have to pay exorbitant amounts of money and go thru a
gauntlet to be able to make a living.

Uber, imho, steals that living away in a very real way...

~~~
arethuza
"in Europe"

Becoming a taxi driver here in Edinburgh appears to cost £165 - which includes
a test which appears to be pretty straightforward to pass.

Is that really an "exorbitant amounts of money"?

[NB I appreciate that Edinburgh may be the exception - but Europe is rather
large and diverse so making such a generalisation about an entire continent
seems rather unwise].

~~~
keithpeter
Birmingham UK: we have black cabs/hackneys (Taxi Operators Association,
TOA)[1] that you can hail in the street and we have Private Hire cars that you
must book in advance.

Both require an appropriate licence from the City Council, and the licence
requires appropriate insurance. Charges for the licences do not appear to be
huge [2], but there is a moratorium in operation on the granting of Hackney
licences at present [3].

Many of the Private Hire cars have both the local operator and an Uber sticker
on the car. As an older gent with a Blackberry, I shall continue to phone
seven sevens when I need to book a taxi. Younger people with smart phones
appear to be using the Uber app, but there are also apps for the various
Private Hire operators and for the TOA. One wonders if there is an opportunity
for a 'meta-app' that can price a journey using all three apps and then
suggest the cheapest.

I am not aware of any UberPop style activity. I suspect that carrying
passengers for money in the UK is quite regulated and that trying to get round
that would lead to difficulties. Buses/trains/metro are OK for most of what I
do except for returning from convivial social gatherings late at night where I
will prefer to use a taxi.

[1] [http://www.toataxis.co.uk/](http://www.toataxis.co.uk/)

[2]
[http://www.birmingham.gov.uk/cs/Satellite?c=Page&childpagena...](http://www.birmingham.gov.uk/cs/Satellite?c=Page&childpagename=SystemAdmin%2FCFPageLayout&cid=1223092597491&packedargs=website%3D4&pagename=BCC%2FCommon%2FWrapper%2FCFWrapper&rendermode=live)

[3] [http://www.birmingham.gov.uk/taxi-
licensing](http://www.birmingham.gov.uk/taxi-licensing)

~~~
arethuza
I've used the same taxi company here in Edinburgh for years - helps that
recent employers of mine have also had accounts with them. The number is
burned into my brain:

Central Taxis 0131 229 2468

------
arturhoo
pg nailed it yesterday on Twitter: "Uber is so obviously a good thing that you
can measure how corrupt cities are by how hard they try to suppress it."
[https://twitter.com/paulg/status/222462460978937856](https://twitter.com/paulg/status/222462460978937856)

Edit: actually I meant this tweet from yesterday:
[https://twitter.com/paulg/status/616683543830339584](https://twitter.com/paulg/status/616683543830339584)
which had the other one embbeded

~~~
aidanf
This is nonsense. Taxi services are regulated for good reason. Many cities and
countries have well-regulated transparent taxi industries.

Uber often seems to seek to bypass that regulation because, eh, disruption. I
would expect any city to do something when faced with a private corporation
attempting to flout their laws for profit. Doing so is in no way correlated
with any measure of how corrupt that city is.

~~~
bobcostas55
>Taxi services are regulated for good reason.

You can't just leave us hanging, what reason is it? Why does the taxi driver
cartel deserve economic rents at the expense of everyone else?

~~~
prostoalex
If you were to design a taxi system from scratch you'd probably want to have

* increased levels of insurance to cover passengers and their belongings

* rigid maintenance requirements on the vehicles that do get more wear & tear through commercial usage

* background checks on drivers, not as much as molester/criminal type that the press likes to sensationalize, but just driving record - obviously someone who keeps running red lights, gets speeding tickets, gets into road rage and runs over people should spend _less_ time on the road, not more

* once you've figured those requirements out, a third party needs to enforce the rules and be able to shut off the offending drivers

Most likely candidate for a third party is a government agency. Most likely
process for approving/forbidding someone from entering the field of commercial
transportation is licensing.

If there are better ideas that would lead to increase in public safety and
decrease in bad guys abusing the system just to turn a quick buck, those are
certainly worth discussing.

