
It's all who you know? - duck
http://sivers.org/xn
======
aresant
When I was in my early 20s I came across a charity auction for "Lunch with
Woz".

As a "top ramen entrepreneur" at the time, I had no chance of winning but I
contacted Woz's assistant via the website.

I said if there's any chance, anytime & anywhere of taking Woz out to lunch
for a young tech entrepreneur to pick his brain please hit me back.

That's all it took - I found myself treating Woz to lunch at a greasy-spoon by
his house. Gracious, awesome guy - huge presence and a transformative moment
for me.

I'm glad I had an excuse to tell that story, because honestly there's not much
more to add to Siver's excellent article - the plan he lays to engineering
your own "who you know" is just that simple.

So now go do it.

~~~
martinced
My example is not as amazing as seeing Woz in person but it got me one of the
finest job out there.

I second you: pick up your phone.

Most people love to leave names and responsibilities on products, in credits,
etc. Analyze who made what, search the web, find a name of someone which you
think could help and then try to find a way to contact him _at his work_ (do
not stalk into his private life) and then call him and ask to meet him. Many
people will accept.

The first I got invited to a dinner and thought I'd be just meeting the man:
no, it was better than that, there were many people around and I got to meet
several of the people I'd be working with later on.

So now go do it.

------
Anechoic
The issue I have with his story is when he says "When I was 18, at Berklee
College of Music" he's basically saying "When I was 18, at [the
MIT/Harvard/CMU/Stanford of Music]" - that is, just being at that institution
gave him the opportunity to meet a BMI executive. Now, how did he get to
Berklee?

Yes, hustling is always a good thing and I sincerely congratulate him on his
initiative, but "who you know" did play a small part in his success (not that
it's a bad thing, it just is).

(BTW, in the off chance Derek is reading this - if you get a chance, please
talk to the folks at The Record Co. <http://www.therecordco.org/> \- it was
created by some Berklee folks as a way of providing low-cost recording studio
services to artists who can't afford pro-studios and may need more services
than can be offered using USB mics and Audacity.)

edit: grammar/typos

~~~
sivers
Herb - I totally agree.

First draft of the post I kept saying "all because I went to school in Boston
and bought a guy a pizza." Very thankful that I had the random luck to grow up
in the U.S, to afford tuition at Berklee (though it was only $2500/semester
back then.)

But as the article developed into saying how NOW the physical location is less
important, I removed the "I was in Boston" part to de-emphasize that part of
my past story & emphasize the current stuff that anyone can apply.

Now I think it doesn't need to begin with physical proximity. A well-written
succinct email is the best introduction to almost anyone, and then you can
strengthen that friendship by phone & email, then eventually meet in person if
circumstances allow.

Also, thanks for therecordco.org tip. I'll check it out.

~~~
Anechoic
Your story reminded me of something that happened to me the summer before my
freshman year in college. I was working two jobs at the time, 40 hours doing
an engineering internship at a large company, and another 20+ hours working as
a stockboy at a local department store (both in Massachusetts) - my family
wasn't poor, but we also weren't rich, so I was trying to bank as much money
as I could for the coming school year to take some of the load off my parents.

One Saturday, while working at the department store, some blowhard came in to
purchase a bunch of housewares to send to his son in Hawaii. The guy was
bossy, and basically micromanaged us as we packed his purchases into boxes for
shipping, much to our consternation. While waiting for someone to fetch some
dishes, Mr. Blowhard and I just started talking to pass the time, and he
basically started asking about my life. I told him about going to college and
when he learned I was going to MIT, his ear's perked up. Long story short, Mr.
Blowhard turned out to be the owner of one of the most successful restaurants
in the area, and right then and there he offered to create a scholarship fund
and award be a couple of thousand dollars to help pay for my tuition.

When I tell folks about this story, they congratulate me for my hustle, but
there was actually no hustle involved. I was literally in the right place at
the right time, if I had traded shifts with a coworker (as we were wont to do
for weekend hours) or if the right plates were on the store shelf, there would
have been no money. Between this, the story of how I got my first job out of
college (also a story of being at the right place at the right time), and one
other story that I won't share, I've come to believe that serendipity is
indeed at least as important as what you know or what you do.

That said, hustle can only help, so you may as well try. :)

~~~
aaronbrethorst
"Luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity." :)

I have a dozen stories of my own about being in the right place at the right
time...with the happenstance of having the right preparation.

------
thewarrior
A Relevant story about the author of the book Liars Poker :

Michael Lewis was an art history student at Princeton University, who
nonetheless wanted to break into Wall Street to make money. He describes his
almost pathetic attempts to find a finance job, only to be roundly rejected by
every firm to which he applied. He then enrolled in the London School of
Economics to gain a Master's degree in economics.

While in England, Lewis was invited to a banquet hosted by the Queen Mother,
where he was purposely seated by his cousin, Baroness Linda Monroe von
Stauffenberg, one of the organizers of the banquet, next to the wife of the
London managing partner of Salomon Brothers, in the hope that his intelligence
might impress her enough for her to suggest to her husband that Lewis be given
a job with Salomon Brothers, which had previously turned him down. As it
turned out, the strategy worked, and Lewis was granted an interview and landed
the job.

Lewis then moved to New York City for Salomon's training program. Here, he was
appalled at the sophomoric, obtuse and obnoxious behavior of some of his
fellow trainees, and indoctrinated into the money culture of Salomon Brothers
and Wall Street in general.

From New York, Lewis was shipped to the London office of Salomon Brothers as a
bond salesman. Despite his lack of knowledge, he was soon handling millions of
dollars in investment accounts. In 1987, he witnessed a near-hostile takeover
of Salomon Brothers but survived with his job.

However, growing disillusioned with his work, Lewis quit the firm at the
beginning of 1988 to write this book and become a financial journalist. The
first edition was published October 17, 1989.

Interview of Michael Lewis :

[http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/entertainment/jan-
june12/mich...](http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/entertainment/jan-
june12/michaellewis_06-13.html)

~~~
Tichy
Nice story, but I think if you are invited to a banquet hosted by the Queen
Mother, it doesn't really count as an anecdote for "anyone can do it".

~~~
joonix
Yeah, this does nothing but promote the idea that it's "who you know." You
have to be in the right circles to even get a shot at serendipity.

------
bhickey

        because they reach out to say hello to the people they admire
    

Amen to this. I'd go a step further and just suggest saying hello. No
admiration necessary. My friends occasionally tell me that I'll talk to
anyone, and it pays off.

One example of several: After moving to London I e-mailed a local HN user. He
introduced me to some people and two weeks later I had a job.

~~~
gknoy
Do we have an easy way of finding other HN members nearby, or was that more
similar to e-mailing patio11 if you happened to move to central Japan, since
we know (already) that that's where he is?

~~~
bhickey
The latter. Saw someone posting about the London scene and just sent him an
e-mail.

------
neeharc
Your story reminds me of how I got my first job. I was about to head home and
right before the elevator I saw an older gentleman trying to dismantle a
stall, the kind you see at job fairs. I stopped and offered help. He took me
up on my offer and we exchanged a brief conversation. Then I left. The next
day I had a job interview. And guess who was the interviewer. My good friend
who I had helped was the VP of recruitment. My interview went well and that's
how I ended up out here in California.

Cheers to you mate. Good read.

------
softbuilder
"Lyndon Johnson would take four showers a day and brush his teeth over and
over again so he would be in the same room with a bunch of politicians and he
could talk to them briefly and make good connections."

[http://www.wikisummaries.org/Hardball#Chapter_1:_It.27s_Not_...](http://www.wikisummaries.org/Hardball#Chapter_1:_It.27s_Not_Who_You_Know.3B_It.27s_Who_You_Get_to_Know)

------
xfax
"These people shaped the way I see the world. The people you surround yourself
with don't just open doors. They change the way you think, and change your
self-image of your capabilities."

Truth right here. And one of the things people ignore when they bash MBA
programs. One of the most important things I'll take away from my program is
the self realization and the change in the way I see the world. And of course,
the people I've met.

------
apaprocki
It's always the little things.. Mike Bloomberg had a great anecdote in his
Chris Dixon interview[1] about getting a friend to let him into the Merrill
Lynch office back in the early 80s and he'd bring a bunch of coffee/tea,
with/without cream and knock and go into random offices and give the person
the drink of their choice and ask if they could talk. No one turns down a free
coffee.

    
    
      [1]: http://techcrunch.com/2011/11/28/founder-stories-how-michael-bloomberg-got-his-start-i-brought-you-a-cup-of-coffee/

------
murtza
The BMI record executive anecdote highlights that Derek had the situational
awareness to see a problem and react in the right way because he knew there
was a potential upside.

Situational awareness also applies to recognizing current trends in the world
and reacting to them. Think about what Derek did with CD Baby: He realized
that the internet had a lot of potential for selling music, so he sold music
on the internet.

------
krmmalik
Back in 2008, I found twitter to be really great for this. There was some
successful people on twitter like James Schramko and Robin Sharma, amongst
many others that I used to follow and they were great at answering my
questions. I used to 'nag' them quite a bit and was surprised by how much they
were willing to respond and communicate. I did this with almost everyone I
followed. At one point I even got through to a producer for the BBC and he and
I even chatted on the phone. It was that phone conversation that really made
me understand what community engagement is really about and how it can help
your product or business.

Unfortunately, I got dragged away from twitter due to work (no excuses really)
and when I became active again just recently, i've found there seems to be so
much more noise and people's willingness to have a conversation with a
stranger is nothing like it used to be.

Still - I'm glad Mr.Sivers answers his emails. He's always been a great help
in helping me to improve my mindset.

------
DrinkWater
It is all about who you know.

But even more than that, you need to have a goal, made out of concrete/steel
in front of your inner eye. All major religions focus on an "ultimate goal",
warfare, nationalism, professional life, "masterplans", "big pictures", the
plots of the best movies and literature in human history, etc.

If you lack this goal, you will never know "who" you need to know. Randomly
networking people will not help you in the long term.

------
jiggy2011
Moral of the story, the more rich and important you are the more free shit
people give you.

~~~
patio11
This is a disempowering way of looking at it. Why focus on the wall when you
could focus on the door?

It is radically more useful to phrase the takeaway as "All business is
conducted by humans, and all humans rich and poor need to eat. Culturally,
business is often conducted over food. Knowing these facts, you can use food
to create a social connection for cheap where creating a business connection
would be otherwise impossible."

That's actually pretty good advice, and it's at the heart of a lot of good
advice you're going to get for career development, like arranging for coffee
dates and business lunches with people who are in the line of Yes-es that you
need to get hired.

~~~
jiggy2011
Oh, I'm not suggesting it's a bad idea pragmatically.

It's just a little sad that you are more like to be lauded for buying pizza
for somebody who could probably afford an entire houseful of pizza, vs doing
something to really help somebody.

~~~
po
_vs doing something to really help somebody._

He _is_ doing something to help somebody who needs it: _himself_. Your
fixating on the monetary transaction is getting in the way. It could have been
a random act of kindness. The money is just a small signal of giving-a-damn
(there are others) that most people wouldn't jump over. He's being lauded for
helping himself, not the executive.

~~~
jiggy2011
It's not "giving a damn" it's kissing ass.

~~~
po
This is a different argument than 'he doesn't need the favor' and as Patrick
said about that one this is also a disempowering view. If you're going to look
at the world through the lens of power, control and socioeconomic status then
you're surely going to find it wherever you look but sure, let's tackle this
one too.

Let's define 'kissing ass' as doing someone with the power to help you a favor
you wouldn't otherwise do (hence the ass kiss), to get favorable treatment.
This would fall under that definition, but then so would all kinds of things
like tipping a waiter or buying your date a rose.

So, what can we add to the definition to make it work? The only thing I can
think of is that we don't like the idea that the favor is to someone who isn't
a peer - someone above you. But Sivers' point is that you _are_ peers in all
the ways that matter. To have opportunities open up to you, you just need two
things: 1.) be provably somewhat above average at something (even if that
thing is just showing initiative) and 2.) get yourself on other people's
radar. You can do the first with a website and the second with an email. Back
when he started out, he didn't have websites and email so he used 'showing
problem-solving initiative' and a handshake.

Sivers didn't just laugh at a joke or pay empty compliments, he took a risk,
took initiative, and signaled that he was a person worth knowing. Later when
he got a job offer he was not just collecting on a favor, he was also
providing value: he worked his ass off for them.

Calling people who show initiative and motivation to open up their options
'ass kissers' is crab mentality.

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crab_mentality>

~~~
codeonfire
The reason this sort of thing does not sit well with some people is that this
does not work from an ethical standpoint in many fields. What if doctors,
lawyers, or engineers all got to skip school because they bought the right
person some lunch? Obviously things got so bad in the past that those fields
are now heavily regulated. It's not a matter of just being a hard worker. If
someone works relationships to get a job and then an airplane crashes it is
bad news for everyone. Clearly, when flying at 35,000 feet you want the most
skilled person to have designed your plane, not the guy who bought lunch for
the right person.

People in the 'serious' professions already have to put up with dishonesty,
battle daily with unethical coworkers and organizations, and have to work with
someone's crappy family member hire. So to applaud ass kissers who get a job
based on connections is very bad for society. If it's just about music or
acting or some non-serious field, the no one cares and no one does care.

~~~
mirkules
Even in "serious" professions, it still matters who you know.

Here's an anecdote: a good friend of mine studied and finished medicine in a
foreign country (in English). He passed all the American exams, yet no school
would take him. The path to becoming an American doctor is quite different and
more difficult than if you were to study domestically.

However, he met a doctor from the same country who practices medicine in
America. The doctor was able to secure a volunteering position for my friend,
and because of that volunteering experience, he is now finishing his residency
program in the top 90% of his class.

Long story short: having connections is not about creating shortcuts; it's
about creating opportunities that would otherwise be impossible to obtain.

------
ronnier
Who you know and who you are friends with means a lot and can make your life
much easier in many respects. That's one reason I see so many playing that
social game at work. It really turns me off, even though I know it's
important, I'd rather produce more and socialize less (at work).

------
fduran
I recommend to everybody Keith Ferrazzi's book "Never Eat Alone", which is
like a modern "How To Win Friends and Influence People".

------
unimpressive
Just an FYI, on my end your RSS feed doesn't work. Both akregator and firefox
seem to agree that it's broken. That's a shame, because I really liked the
article.

EDIT: Confirmed. [http://www.rssboard.org/rss-
validator/check.cgi?url=https%3A...](http://www.rssboard.org/rss-
validator/check.cgi?url=https%3A%2F%2Fsivers.org%2Fen.atom)

~~~
sivers
Fixed. Thank you!

~~~
unimpressive
No problem. Thank you for fixing it.

It's ironic because I was just about to go try writing a news reader. I
actually found the validator while reading the RSS 2.0 spec.

------
nns357
My question would have to be, how do you surround yourself around people you
want to be around? I live in the suburbs 30 minutes outside of Providence and
Providence is hardly the type of city for start-ups or innovation. Boston is
on the other hand, but say I spend an hour on the T driving up. What next?

------
codeonfire
Suggested title: It's all who you know if you work in a field like music.

For some people, burning bridges and telling people what they can go do to
themselves is a cherished past time that they have earned. In my opinion the
hard-line approach to success is far more satisfying. Imagine making an
opportunity for yourself that no one can take away because they had no part in
giving it to you. That's exhilarating to know that no one has any power or
influence over you. If that's not your goal, then what's the point? You might
as well go work at a grocery store or something.

------
joelmaat
It's all about who you know if you have no talent, or are decidedly average.
If you are better than that, then who you know, while it still matters,
doesn't matter as much.

------
brendan_gill
Its not who you know... its _whom_ you know :)

------
antidaily
So do you want to know the people "who know everybody and everybody knows" or
be them?

~~~
ohheyworld
depends on what your strengths/weaknesses are and, ultimately, what you want
to spend your time doing.

------
verroq
If sucking up to a company executive counts as buying pizza for a stranger.

------
ycuser
not just this story, but every successful person grabbed the little window of
opportunity and one thing leads to another. The key is being prepared and
taking the initiative.

------
10dpd
It’s not just who you know, its who you know that knows that you know.

------
Mozai
It's not who you know -- but who knows you.

------
ilaksh
Wow. Its so easy to meet successful people and become their friends. Just drop
them an email and a phone call and wham, they will give you a job.

I wish I realized that before. I will just write some emails tonight. Tomorrow
I will be successful.

I can't stand this guy's smug face. He was just lucky.

~~~
kristofferR
Fools wait for a lucky day but every day is a lucky day for an industrious
man. \- Buddha

I'm a great believer in luck, and I find the harder I work the more I have of
it. \- Thomas Jefferson

Success is simply a matter of luck. Ask any failure. \- Earl Wilson

<https://www.evernote.com/pub/kristofferr/inspiringQuotes>

~~~
slurgfest
If success isn't a matter of luck, it also isn't a sign of natural superiority
over those who are less successful, or the great universal ease of becoming
successful.

I don't say this to be bitter, but let's have a little empathy with the many,
many people in the world who work hard and still do not catch that many
breaks. For example, no one doubts the greatness of Thomas Jefferson, but it
would have been different for one of his field slaves to profess
industriousness.

~~~
avenger123
I think the underlying premise in all these statements is that working hard
the "right" way is what makes the difference.

I also agree that if you are selling garbage in the slums of India, no matter
how hard you work, it's likely going to make very little difference in your
overall life situation.

At the same time, if you take the average person living in a western society,
working hard does make a difference. With it you have a chance, without it you
are leaving it very much to luck and circumstance.

I also find that very few of us know what working hard really means. Working
hard with a focus and a goal in mind will get results.

