
Uber avoids car pick-up app restrictions in London - choult
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-35361153
======
digbyloftus
>The California-based private-hire company had urged its users to oppose
suggestions that had included a ban on apps being able to show where their
nearby available vehicles were.

>a minimum five-minute delay between pick-up confirmations being sent out and
drivers being able to collect their passengers

Whoa, that's not even trying to be subtle. That's just straight up trying to
legislate a required level of crapiness.

~~~
st3v3ndungan
>Other rejected measures included:

> a minimum five-minute delay between pick-up confirmations being sent out and
> drivers being able to collect their passengers

> a requirement that private-hire companies let customers pre-book cars up to
> seven days in advance

Um. Perhaps it would be better if the black cabs focused their efforts on
enhancing their own user experience rather than trying to artificially cap it?
:)

Also, this article links to nothing regarding the decision, it's just a single
(unnamed) author's quick take, which is disappointing - if he/she is going to
write so little, could they please provide a link to a first-hand source (the
decision itself?) or a more thorough analysis?

I see from this that there are still several (perhaps minor) measures up in
the air, and one measure that will be adopted is a "formal English language
requirement[1]."

[1] [http://www.engadget.com/2016/01/20/uber-tfl-consultation-
win...](http://www.engadget.com/2016/01/20/uber-tfl-consultation-win/)

(P.S. first post - did I link properly?)

~~~
JonFish85
"Um. Perhaps it would be better if the black cabs focused their efforts on
enhancing their own user experience rather than trying to artificially cap it?
:)"

That's certainly valid, but on the flip side, shouldn't Uber at least compete
on even ground? They basically storm into town, ignoring things like taxi
medallions and such. That's why laws like these start to get enforced, so that
Uber can't try to sneak past laws by saying "we're not a cab company we're a
<something only slightly different>".

~~~
mattlutze
Uber is competing on even ground. They've apparently designed a system that
falls on the legal side of these medallion market protectionist schemes in
most/many/a lot of locations. They're operating in the confines of municipal
law.

There's a few taxi and black cab app hailing services that make Uber et. al.
moot here in southern Germany. TaxiMagic, for example, is great and provides
the full core set of capabilities (favorite drivers, estimated costs, time-to-
pickup, in-app payments, etc.) and is actually a network of medallion-holding
taxi drivers.

Consider that, if taxi companies offered competitive phone-based reservations
(removing the convenience market differentiatior), they'd actually end up
being the more reliable provider. No surge pricing, more consistent
availability of favorite drivers, more predictable trunk/boot sizes ( no
worrying if your luggage will fit when all the taxis in the city are ___
cars). etc.

There's a bunch of these app companies champing at the bit to find taxi
providers to partner up. Which is to say... incumbent taxi ecosystems can
absolutely be competitive and possibly offer a richer/more lucrative range of
services beyond the awkward ride-along you get with an occasional Uber driver.

~~~
SilasX
>Uber is competing on even ground. They've apparently designed a system that
falls on the legal side of these medallion market protectionist schemes in
most/many/a lot of locations. They're operating in the confines of municipal
law.

It seems like that's not true in London, even though it would be trivial to
comply. There, (my understanding is) you get to obey fewer regulations if
you're offering a pre-booking service, and that exception requires that people
be able to make a request for "a car at 3pm".

And IMHO, that's a pretty reasonable requirement; it's not saying customers
_have to_ specify a time, and it allows requests of the form "3pm or ASAP".
It's also a feature many customers have asked for. But for some reason, Uber
has this bizarre insistence on not allowing pre-booking:

[https://www.quora.com/Why-doesnt-Uber-allow-customers-to-
pre...](https://www.quora.com/Why-doesnt-Uber-allow-customers-to-pre-book-
cabs/answer/Mark-Rogowsky)

~~~
mattlutze
I find that Quora answer interesting. I get the argument that Uber is building
for the future, where cars-as-appliances just hang out and pick you up when
you call for them. But if I know I'm going to need a car at a particular time,
why wouldn't my Uber of the future want to know that it needs to adjust the
random distribution of cars-for-hire, or logistically coordinate more rides to
end up near me, for that time?

If Uber knows it needs a car at 3pm, it can push work availability notices to
drivers near the pick-up location who may not at the moment be working. It
would be a benefit to the driver to be able to have the guaranteed fare, and
if the driver is late Uber can just give it to a different driver. Pre-booked
cars can be priced differently for the driver or passenger to ensure the
opportunities are attractive enough for the slight inconvenience of having to
drive a bit more to pick up the passenger. And it's more convenient for the
passenger to know a car will be there.

Pricing can still do its surge thing, or they could require a pre-booking fee
or something.

I don't see how ^ would require a fundamental reengineering of the system.

(And, as a round-about way, I agree allowing pre-booking would be a reasonable
requirement, if it's indeed an existing statue.)

~~~
SilasX
Agree 100%; I made similar points in a reply to that answer:

[https://www.quora.com/Why-doesnt-Uber-allow-customers-to-
pre...](https://www.quora.com/Why-doesnt-Uber-allow-customers-to-pre-book-
cabs/answer/Mark-Rogowsky/comment/9205796)

------
vjvj
I'm surprised a lot of the posts here are missing the key point.

The main argument black cab (taxi) drivers are making is that Transport for
London (the regulatory body) forces them to go through a bunch of extra steps
before they can work (1) whereas minicabs (e.g. Ubers) are free from this.

That said, it's definitely a good thing these measures did not pass because
they simply made minicabs worse rather than trying to improve the situation
for taxi drivers whose "it's unfair" argument is a valid one.

Even as someone who is open to new tech, there are nuanced arguments on both
sides which are often overlooked.

(1) For example, taxi drivers must do a navigation test learning the vast
majority of roads in London ("The Knowledge"); be CRB checked where minicab
drivers do not.

~~~
adam-a
You make a good point. I think some of those checks - the CRB for instance,
are undoubtedly good things. I wish that the black cabs would move on and
require operators to have GPS devices and not rely on "The Knowledge".
Impressive as it is, in my experience it results in longer routes and often
relies on the passenger knowing where they are going.

The main sticking point though must be the fares though - black cabs are
significantly more expensive than Uber, and this is the main reason they are
losing business IMO. I would be interested to see a breakdown of why the fares
are more. Is it simply more money in the pockets of the drivers? Or does the
extra money pay for better vehicles, insurance, training, taxes etc?

~~~
Digit-Al
I don't know _why_ they cost what they do, but black cab taxi fares are set by
TfL and they can't charge any more or less. Here is the breakdown
[https://tfl.gov.uk/modes/taxis-and-minicabs/taxi-
fares/tarif...](https://tfl.gov.uk/modes/taxis-and-minicabs/taxi-
fares/tariffs)

------
boona
It's articles like these that make me wonder how many ridiculous laws there
are that are not in the public consciousness. How can this possibly help make
our lives better?

~~~
ams6110
All the laws regulating taxi-like services were enacted because of abuses
before they existed. It's a classic case of "be careful what you ask for."

~~~
viscanti
> All the laws regulating taxi-like services were enacted because of abuses
> before they existed.

I'm not convinced. What does the hour pre-booking requirement in Miami do to
prevent previous abuses? What does the business test that drivers have to pass
in Germany do to prevent previous abuses? What does NYC's 30+ day process to
get the correct license do to prevent previous abuses? These all seem like
laws regulating taxi-like services only for the benefit of making taxis more
competitive.

The taxi industry in NYC has given the mayor over $500,000. Presumably they're
looking to get laws passed (like the proposed cap on uber) in order to protect
themselves, not to prevent abuses that previously existed. Maybe it's helpful
to talk about what the previous abuses were, and then look at what are the
best solutions to that in a world where everyone has smartphones. I'm not
convinced that all (or even most) of the regulations out there are to prevent
previous abuses, but maybe I'm missing something here.

~~~
forgetsusername
> _The taxi industry in NYC has given the mayor over $500,000_

You say this as if Uber isn't _heavily_ involved in lobbying for their own
benefit.

I'll consider Uber to be on a level-playing field when I can be certain that
any car I climb into has the proper insurance required for transporting people
commercially. Right now it seems like Uber is putting that responsibility on
the drivers themselves (which, I suppose, is their right). But I believe
that's a huge cost advantage (with associated externalities when someone is
hurt badly).

~~~
viscanti
> You say this as if Uber isn't heavily involved in lobbying for their own
> benefit.

No. I say it to point out that there are laws that aren't for the public good.
At that point, we're free to have an open discussion about which laws are for
the public good and which aren't. If we start by assuming all laws are enacted
to prevent previous abuses, we miss a key point here.

------
arprocter
IME the service offered by black cabs is worse than in NYC - they apparently
have 'discretion' on accepting a fare or not, so even if they pull over they
might just say they don't want to go in that direction. I remember saying
'sorry, I thought I was supposed to tell /you/ where /I/ want to go'. A
problem that is compounded by the fact that the Underground shuts down at
night.

Then again, my last experience with Uber was waiting 20 mins in the LGA cold
for a driver '10 minutes away' never to arrive who then just cancelled the
ride. And apparently because he never picked me up can't leave a negative
review.

~~~
cheetos
Honest question, why would you call an Uber to LGA? LGA has massive lines of
taxis waiting to take you home. You'd easily get a cab in less than twenty
minutes that is legally required to take you to your location.

~~~
CaptSpify
Not OP, I live in a different city, YMMV, etc

I hate taking taxis. Their CC machine is always "broken", they always try to
take me in some funky route, cabs are always dirty, and there's no way for me
to give feedback on crappy drivers. I don't know if the taxis at LGA have
these same problems, but I'd rather wait 10 minutes for an Uber than get an
immediate taxi

~~~
chimeracoder
> Their CC machine is always "broken"

If this ever happens to you, the answer is simple: tell them, "thanks for the
free ride". If they don't tell you before the ride starts that the credit card
machine is broken, you are not required to pay. (This applies both in New York
and San Francisco).

Though for what it's worth, I'm not sure I've _ever_ had that happen in NYC,
in almost ten years of living here and taking cabs here. The only time that's
ever happened to me is in the Bay Area (where the cabs really do deserve their
bad reputation).

~~~
anarazel
> If this ever happens to you, the answer is simple: tell them, "thanks for
> the free ride".

Done that on rides from JFK. Been threatened for a while. Like physically.
Then suddenly the machine worked. Oh wonder.

The first time this happened to me, also JFK, I was half delirious after an
intercontinental trip with long delays. The first time in the US. So back then
I didn't feel like having a forceful confrontation with a cabbie I had a hard
time understanding.

I think that's much less likely to happen to you if you live there. But it's
usually pretty easy for a driver to recognize whether you're from NYC.
Language, destination, asking outright...

EDIT: typo.

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kennydude
Yeah Uber is dodgy but when I don't know where I am in London, I can put a pin
on a map and the driver will arrive to that point. Oh and I know their name
and license plate instantly

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tomnewton
but they make all of our lives better....

