
Airbnb and security camera disclosure - pmlnr
http://jeffreybigham.com/blog/2019/who-is-watching-you-in-your-airbnb.html
======
philip1209
I've lived in Airbnbs full-time for about 18 months while traveling, and
Airbnb has lost my trust repeatedly in terms of reliability, safety, and user-
friendliness.

\- Host listing quality has gone consistently downhill. Now, it's many
slumlords just trying to make a quick buck rather than support the original
community idea or provide a great stay.

\- Airbnb support response times are horribly slow. They hide their phone
number, then force you to go through a ticketing system for urgent issues.
Then, they start assigning you a new "case manager" every few hours as their
shifts change, which means the rep never is caught up on the issue. Sometimes,
they forget to transfer you to a new rep before ending their shift, which
could result in zero responses for days until the rep works again.

\- When there is a problem, Airbnb supports the host and makes little to no
effort to relocate users. For example, when our unit flooded, among other
problems, the feedback was basically "well we can book you into another
available unit". The problem was that it was peak Summer in Barcelona, we were
there for a long period of time, and the only available units were minimum 5x
the price.

\- We had an Airbnb burglarized. Again, we waited hours for a response, as a
police forensics unit was dusting the unit for fingerprints. We suspect that
the host was complicit after realizing that previous tenants were also
burglarized. Airbnb's insurance policy covered none of our losses ($10K+ in
electronics, jewelry, watches, clothing, etc). We ended up feeling unsafe and
canceling the reservation with 3 weeks remaining. As a "courtesy", Airbnb
support credited our account for less than the cost of one night at a local
replacement unit. Because we accepted the credit, they considered the matter
"resolved" and did nothing else.

I've spent $30K+ on Airbnb. It started as a great alternative to hotels. Now,
I can no longer recommend it, and I prefer a hotel.

~~~
munchbunny
It's almost as if AirBnB's hosts and guests are bearing the externalities that
should be priced into the transaction on both sides...

For hosts, property damage, etc. is a matter of when, not if, and for those
things you get insurance. But as far as I know that's not a standard thing for
hosts. Pricing in hidden hosting costs would make hosting look less profitable
up front, then AirBnB's market would shrink.

For guests, inconvenient cancellations, bad hosts, bad rentals, etc. AirBnB
doesn't give you any real recourse like paying for you to stay elsewhere the
way a hotel often does. That would be expensive and you'd have to either pass
the cost onto the customers (raise fees/prices), or reduce your margins.

That's not counting societal externalities like permanent AirBnB setups in
neighborhoods that are affecting community cohesion.

These days, I use AirBnB to save money by taking on some level of
discomfort/risk. If I'm looking for a worry-free night with decent amenities
where I want to minimize mental overhead, I just book a hotel.

~~~
MatekCopatek
I feel like what you described is the main reason for the profitability of
most "sharing economy" services. Uber is also advertised as a little side gig
you can do when your car is not being used while the real goal is to have a
taxi service that isn't subject to the same legislation and unloads more cost
on the driver.

~~~
muse900
Personally what I've come to realize over the years is that 'Use a startup
while its young, get rid of it and get on the next startup once it grows
beyond just being a simple pre-seed, 1st round startup'.

My reasoning comes from the amount of cash investors pour money into startups,
and startups having insane amount of deals at the very start in order to
attract costumers like uber had and airbnb to an extend. After the 1st or 2nd
round is where a strong cfo either joins or the VC's involved want to
capitalize on what they got so they are trying to squeeze things in and
butcher the level of service something provided so they can either IPO or sell
for big $.

What am saying is not always the rule but it does apply to a lot of things.

\- New currency exchange card coming out amazing rates etc, 3 years down drops
down to whatever your bank was going to give you \- uber is a cheap taxi
alternative you can use by abusing its own staff and investor money, cool 5
years down the line it becomes the same as any other taxi out there and still
manages to abuse their staff \- airbnb has some nice quality for money
accomodation cause they are taking care of the product? fine again few years
down the line when it gets streamlined and is getting squeezed for its maximum
value they drop their customer support standards etc.

So yes thats it for me, am not going to remain a loyal customer anymore, am
going to use your startup and its initial investing deal you are giving me,
and am going to jump ship to the 1st startup that is coming out to beat you.
Sounds very egoistic, its not though, am just tired of getting treated like a
sheep.

P.S not a startup but a company that I very much liked Blizzard is changing
face and its getting squeezed out for money from Activision, I feel betrayed
so am a bit biased on my views but as my father once said: 'I bought a miele
washing machine 25 years ago and it still works like a charm. I bought a brand
new Samsung washing machine as a 2nd and broke within 3 years and good luck
with warranty, if companies are going to treat me like this from now on, then
am going to treat them like that'.

~~~
blattimwind
You don't think that your behaviour (i.e. consciously not just enabling but
promoting new & continued "abuse[s of] their staff" etc.) is in any way
decent, right?

 _Of course I bought jewelry from the Nazis - it was cheap while it lasted!_

~~~
muse900
No.

Lets be clear about that, using uber is not the same as buying jewelry from
war criminals. (hit a vein cause my grandpa was executed by them).

Everyone used uber and keeps using uber no matter what comes into light.
Certainty not many of us knew beforehand what uber was doing, and once it was
out I think uber tried to cover it quickly by increasing benefits and whatnot
for the drivers. So no its not the same and am not enabling any dodgy business
or anything, don't misjudge my comment, uber is a multi-billion $ company of
course its dodgy as any multi-billion $ company out there.

~~~
mrunkel
I've never ridden in an Uber, and I will never.

So no, everyone doesn't.

Uber is built on squeezing safety and security from the drivers of cars for
hire and somewhat from the customers. By using Uber you are complicit in this.

------
eric_b
I used to use AirBnB all the time. Lately I've switched back to using hotels
almost exclusively. The camera/privacy thing is a big part of it. I empathize
with the hosts to a degree - you don't want people doing outrageous things in
your home. But the hosts want their cake and to eat it too. Don't rent out
your home if you don't want the risk of people damaging it!

(As a minor aside, I've also noticed the quality of the places I've found on
AirBnB has gone down. The homes I stayed at before I quit using it were not
very clean (despite the fee!), things were broken, key retrieval was a pain
etc. Hotels used to be much more expensive, but price/quality of experience is
starting to get more competitive)

It's funny to me, because AirBnB runs in to all the same problems we had with
hotels a hundred years ago. We have dozens of taxes, rules, regulations,
building codes etc now for hotels. I imagine at some point it will be the same
for AirBnBs. What's old is new.

~~~
DoubleGlazing
Same here. A few years ago all our AirBnB experiences were good, but over time
they have progressively got worse.

For example, one host housed us in what felt like a derelict hotel/doshouse
with all sorts of weird people staying and no working locks or fire alarm. On
another occasion we booked a cottage, but it had a blocked chimney and was
spewing fumes and smoke in to the living area. And for our tenth wedding
anniversary we booked another cottage where the host insisted on staying with
us despite the listing saying we would have the property to ourselves. He also
insisted on singing to us against our will, this was actually quite creepy.

We did of course raise concerns with AirBnB about the first two and left a
negative review for the third. AirBnB did not care and crucially it did not
seem to have an effect on the ratings of these properties. That just does not
seem right.

I no longer trust AirBnB. I don't trust the listings, I don't trust the
reviews and I certainly don't trust AirBnB itself to filter out bad hosts.

This could be because AirBnB has grown so fast and it has struggled to cope,
or it could be a conscious business decision. Either way, we don't use them
anymore.

~~~
fyfy18
I would have called Airbnb as soon as I found there was an issue and made them
book me in somewhere else. You are paying a service fee to them for a reason.

~~~
wlesieutre
They should have called the fire marshal. Airbnb support is probably one step
up from Google's in terms of reaching a satisfactory solution for customers.

The fire marshal won't get you your money back, but they'll ruin a host's day
if they're renting out a space without smoke detectors.

~~~
DoubleGlazing
Oh we did, and the owner of the building ended up in the press for a multitude
of reasons a few weeks after we had our stay.

~~~
wlesieutre
Glad to hear it, you may have saved someone from having a pretty bad time with
that.

Basically every line of fire codes were written in response to people burning
to death, so I have very little tolerance for landlords messing around.

------
chimen
I'm renting houses/apartments on AirBNB and place cameras outside the homes
(to watch who's in front of the entrance door, activity). Placing them inside
the home is a real privacy concern - a zone that I would never even consider.

The reason for the cameras outside is to watch closely how many people enter
as we're constantly fighting prostitution which leads to a pain with neighbors
and other stuff.

~~~
jploh
We have two properties listed on Airbnb and have been a "superhost" for half a
year.

Our listing has extra fees if there are more than 2 people booking and there
have been a number of instances where guests would sneak in extra people.

We got a security camera for one of our listings recently. It's an attached
suite with a private entrance. The camera is installed outside and it's
disclosed with a check box toggled in Airbnb's listing settings.

Being a private person myself, I would not put a camera inside spaces meant
private for guests. In these times, I'm even a bit wary on adding a CO alarm
because guests might think it's a spy camera.

Obviously, not everyone has the same standards. The host described in the post
is quite rude. I wouldn't communicate that way with a guest. Hopefully, Airbnb
will reopen the case given the attention it has received.

~~~
cm2187
Actually don't you want to highlight the disclosure of the camera to dissuade
trouble makers from picking your place?

~~~
plusbryan
I don't think most people think it through that well. I once had a guest stay
in our attached guest house where we live and try to sneak in a dog
(explicitly not allowed).

------
megous
Bullshit reason given by the AirBnB. How is someone renting a room qualified
to determine from a photo what kind of a device is there in the corner, or
even notice. It can be anything, perhaps just a motion detection sensor or air
quality monitoring or whatever. Also I do not scrutinize every single photo
for details, but I read the description in its entirety.

These things have to be stated in writing and they should have it as a part of
listed attributes for the room/house.

~~~
arusahni
There are also accessibility concerns/questions here. What if someone with
poor (or no) eyesight is trying to book accommodation? Is there a screen-
reader friendly description that says "Living room with security camera in the
upper corner"?

~~~
basil-rash
Great point. I'd be interested to see what their response to that argument
would be if it came from him pretending to have the disability. (or not even
pretending)

------
1024core
I'll add my AirBnB anecdote.

We were in Hawaii. We checked into the AirBnB, and the first thing my wife
noticed was that there were crumbs of food all along the walls of the kitchen.
She murmured something about this not being good and attracting bugs.

We turn off the lights, and a few minutes later she jumped up, claiming there
was something on her. We turned on the lights, and saw nothing. I brushed it
off. A few minutes later it happened again. Same deal. Then a few minutes
later it happened to _me_. I turned on the lights, and happened to look at the
roof, and there were 2 large cockroaches on the roof, right above us! Yikes!
Then I stepped out, and on the kitchen floor I saw a few of them scurrying
about.

So I called up AirBnB at 2AM. They asked me for photos, video, etc. After a
couple of hours of back and forth, they agreed to let us leave. They let us
book another place. But then they proceeded to cancel our original
reservation, so I could not leave feedback! The host contacted me, and when I
told her why we left, pretended as if nothing was wrong about 3-inch long
cockroaches running around all over the place. AirBnB never reprimanded her.

~~~
dcosson
> pretended as if nothing was wrong about 3-inch long cockroaches running
> around all over the place.

To be fair it actually is pretty common to see 3 inch cockroaches running
around in Hawaii and other tropical places, even in reasonably nice/clean
houses. Especially in older houses that might not be insulated or sealed very
well (given the weather there's not much need to insulate for heat purposes).

Granted, keeping things clean and making an effort to get rid of bugs when you
do see them will obviously make things better, and it sounds like this host
was probably more neglectful than they should have been.

This is honestly a really interesting example though - a lot of people's
stated reason for liking AirBnB is being in a more authentic, local
environment. But then when you have different expectations about the
conditions than a local person living in that house might have, it becomes a
bad experience that AirBnB should solve. Where should the line be? If you want
them to standardize things and make sure all listings are comfortable for the
widest range of people possible, doesn't that just end up looking exactly like
a hotel?

------
iabacu
When I interviewed at Airbnb, they asked me about one thing I learned in the
past that could be useful for Airbnb.

I suggested that people who are developing the product should once in a while
spend a few hours handling user tickets themselves (perhaps shadowing an
actual customer representative), so that developers get to sense (at the gut
level) the pain points.

The interviewer did not seemed pleased with that suggestion.

~~~
zemo
dunno if they still do it, but this was normal practice at Etsy when I was an
engineer there (2013-2015). Every so often (once a quarter maybe?) I had to
spend a day answering support tickets. We discovered (and fixed) a lot of bugs
that way.

~~~
Klathmon
As a lead developer on some projects, I've explicitly asked to jump into the
weeds and handle support.

You can learn SO MUCH about your application just by handling a bit of
support. You learn UX issues, you learn what tooling the support people are
missing that would allow them to do their job (a simple "send a screenshot to
support" button in our app saved our support reps HOURS spending time trying
to get customers to describe the problem or teaching them how to take a
screenshot on their device).

Not only that, but often the easiest wins are those where you make a happy
customer even happier. I saw one customer one time that did this like 10 step
process to get some information from the app. They would switch to one user,
go to a specific page, open it in a new tab and leave it there, then logout
and login to another account, go to their overview page, and then bring the 2
tabs side-by-side to compare numbers.

We already had support for "manager" style accounts that could view info on
multiple people, but it didn't have the information they were looking for. A
few hours later I had a POC up on our staging system with the information they
needed right there, and that person I was talking to became almost an
evangelist for our software at their company. Just knowing that they had a
problem in the first place was key, and the fix took me a few hours, but it
saved them probably that much per week.

~~~
OldSchoolJohnny
I can't imagine a company _not_ mining the info from support for exactly these
kind of improvements as a standard operating procedure; it's a gold mine of
information, anyone ignoring it doesn't really care about the quality of their
product.

~~~
CaptainZapp
One would think so. But here's the problem.

Support (even "in-house" support at global companies) is often outsourced to
the lowest bidder. They are paid by support ticket and thus have zero interest
in actually resolving the issue once and for all.

It's more profitable to open 20 tickets on the same issue than to actually
resolve it.

Also, from the perspective of the call center you're a lousy support person if
you actually want to _help_ customers. Your most important metric is calls per
time unit. It's in your interest as the support agent to get the customer off
the call as quick as possible.

------
plusbryan
To add some background to the discussion: As a host, you are asked to check a
box entitled "Surveillance or recording devices on property". If you check it,
it asks you to "Describe any device that records or sends video, audio, or
still images. Specify each device’s location and whether it will be on or
off."

As this is a text box, it is up to the host to accurately describe things like
location of device, viewable area, on/off/recording status, and if there is a
microphone. There is also no structured way to specify if the recording device
is posted outside (ie a driveway, facing away from the property for security)
vs inside the rented space.

Finally, they link hosts to their policy here, which specifies (among other
things) that cameras that record guests are fine if disclosed, provided they
aren't in bedrooms or bathrooms:
[https://www.airbnb.com/help/article/887/what-are-airbnb-s-
ru...](https://www.airbnb.com/help/article/887/what-are-airbnb-s-rules-about-
electronic-surveillance-devices-in-listings)

------
amerkhalid
I never understood appeal of AirBnB. We used to travel a lot and thought
AirBnB would be cheaper to equivalent hotels but it usually is about same or
more expensive but with less amenities.

For example:

* There is no room service. You can order delivery but room service has certain charms especially at 2AM.

* In hotels, you come back to a clean room at the day's end.

* There is cleaning fee for many AirBnB. With hotels, you just leave a tip but no need to leave the place in perfect condition to avoid cleaning fee.

* If you have any issues with your room, hotel will relocate you to new room quickly.

* Concierge services, shuttle services, pools, etc are really nice to haves even if we don't use them.

* You are with other travellers in hotel. Very easy to meet new people and share some experience or tips.

Some of my friends get AirBnB in suburbs to save money but then they are
renting cars or taking Uber everywhere which probably adds up to same price.
Also when traveling I don't want to feel like I am back in 'burbs.

Then, of course, we have privacy issues.

~~~
baby
That makes no sense to me. Airbnb has changed travelling for these reasons:

* It is cheaper for the location

* It has a kitchen

* It feels like a home

I don't understand these kind of comments. Can you remember any of the hotel
room you've been in the previous years? I can't. Can you remember any of the
airbnb you've stayed at? I remember every one of them. There is a true home
feeling to them.

~~~
alexhutcheson
The kitchen always ends up being less useful than I imagine it will be because
it's so unpredictable what basic ingredients will be there. Many are pretty
bare-bones, and by the time I buy cooking spray or oil, salt & pepper, basic
condiments, etc. I have spent more than I would have by going out to eat.
They're great for longer stays, but for a long weekend trip I almost never do
anything more complicated than breakfast cereal or a freezer pizza.

~~~
abrowne
We usually stay in one place for 1+ week, and we usually eat out for lunch but
eat breakfast and cook and eat dinner at home, except a few nights out. So the
kitchen is essential for us!

------
telecuda
After a host made a suspicious/creepy comment about our stay, I started
logging into host routers (creds usually printed on the device) and look at
what other devices are connected. The camera may not be on that network, or
not networked at all, but it’s a little peace of mind.

~~~
wil421
There is an app called Fing on iPhones and maybe Android. It will scan the
WiFi you are on and give you a bunch of information. There’s also a few more
network functions you can do. It recognizes phones, my plex server, and a
brother printer at my house to name a few.

No router login required just the WiFi password.

~~~
morpheuskafka
And using Fing (works better on Android b/c on iOS it can't access raw MAC
addresses) is perfectly legal. The fact that a default password is used or the
password is posted on the router is not in any way legal permission to access
it as a short-term guest. Look at Aaron Swartz's case if you don't know how
readily prosecutors will (ab)use the CFAA.

~~~
paulie_a
Honestly who cares if it is illegal? What are they going to do? Literally
nothing would ever happen. Using default creds on a home router really isn't
going to get a prosecutors interest. They would probably laugh at you after
you filed a complaint.

------
iooi
Ok, people suck. Not much we can do about that. For all you know, the host is
archiving footage and could use it for whatever nefarious purposes later on.

What really isn't okay here is Airbnb's response. Indoor cameras should be
explicitly against their policies and finding one in an apartment should
immediately terminate _all_ the listings by that host.

This is where some regulation actually makes sense, and it might not be a bad
idea for Airbnbs to be treated as hotels -- especially all the properties that
are exclusively used for this purpose. There's tons of those in bigger cities
and they're pretty obvious since the "host" will have dozens of apartments
available.

I will never use Airbnb again until they implement this policy, and I
encourage everyone here to vocalize the same.

~~~
dawnerd
They'd end up having to remove like most of the listings in Orlando then. It's
pretty difficult to find a nice house that doesn't have cameras. I've opted to
just stay in apartment hotel suites instead - ends up being way cheaper
anyways.

~~~
izacus
A house that doesn't have cameras INSIDE to monitor what the guests are
doing?!

~~~
therealx
Sadly very common. Esp in areas where the lister is worried about parties.

------
pingec
Here is my unpleasant story from 2 weeks ago when I was in Bali.

I had booked an apartment but the host was not replying to any of my
messages/sms/calls. Fearing something was fishy I opened an Airbnb support
ticket 3 days before my the checkin date. In those 3 days Airbnb support did
_not_ reply to me at all. It was a shitty feeling, I wanted to book another
place but I had already paid for this one.

1 day before checkin, the host replied with a short message that I could
checkin next day, he didn't address any of my questions nor any of my follow-
up messages. Next day I go to the specified address of the villa and call the
host, the host picks up this time but tells me that the address on Airbnb is
wrong and sends me to another location. I go to the second location, the
building does not look anything like the one in the photos, there is nobody
there and I cannot get inside, the neighbour shouts that the building is empty
because the lease contract has expired a month ago. it starts raining and I am
standing there on the street with all my baggage and it starts to rain. I call
the host, now really angry and he starts apologising that he is not even the
landlord but just a guy from another country (India) and he does not know much
about the booked property then he stops responding.

At this point I submit to the reality that this listing is some sort of scam
and start looking for ways to contact Airbnb over phone to get urgent help
since I have nowhere to go.

The Airbnb website is useless, cannot find any phone numbers to call. Finally
I google and read on some forum, that there is no phone number for Airbnb in
Indonesia and that I need to make a call to a US number. I make the call and
they are very helpful. They tell me they will try to contact the host in the
next 30 minutes and that I should look for other suitable listings. After 30
minutes they contact me again and they agree to cancel my previous booking so
that I can book something else. I end up booking something which was is in the
same price range but much lower standard (not much choice when doing same-day
booking).

I talked to Airbnb support for 7 minutes in total and that cost me 28 EUR.
Airbnb later agreed to refund me the 28 EUR for the phone calls.

After this experiece I am more keen on using booking.com again, have not had
any such bad experience with them yet.

~~~
danols
How many reviews did the place you booked have?

~~~
pingec
2

------
gambiting
Should have replied "Yes, I disconnected it so you wouldn't record our naked 2
year old.". Any discussion after that point surely becomes pointless.

~~~
larrywright
This was my first thought as well. If you’re an Airbnb host and capture video
of a minor without clothes on, you could be in a world of legal trouble.

~~~
pc86
This is a pretty big oversimplification of the law. If you're not hiding the
presence of cameras, they're not capturing private areas or those entrances
directly, and you're not doing anything with that footage after the fact, it's
unlikely to ever be an issue.

There was an /r/legaladvice thread a few weeks ago where someone's security
camera recorded a cleaning lady's 16 year old daughter changing, which
certainly has the potential to be more lascivious than a 2 year old post-bath
time, and the consensus was pretty unanimously that the homeowner had nothing
to worry about provided they weren't archiving or keeping that footage.

~~~
larrywright
To be fair, I did qualify my statement with a “could”. IANAL.

This likely depends on where it happens as well, and how aggressive the legal
system is there. I know that I’ve heard of cases where a high school official
was attempting to handle a situation where a student was distributing nude
pictures of another student via their phone, and because the teacher forwarded
the message to themselves so that they could show law enforcement, the teacher
ended up being charged with possession of child porn.

I guess all I’m saying is that I wouldn’t want to be in a position where I
could inadvertently capture something like that. Maybe 90% of the time you’re
fine as long as you handle it properly, but we’ve all seen situations where
someone ends up in a bad situation despite having no ill intentions.

~~~
pc86
Absolutely, the most common refrain on LA when anything related to this is
involved on someone's device is always some version of "don't delete it, don't
open it, don't touch the device, get a lawyer yesterday and have them talk to
law enforcement."

------
RootReducer
My wife and I have done a lot of traveling over the last 5 years and usually
stayed at an AirBnB. We used to have nothing but good experiences but the
quality has become so inconsistent that we switched back to hotels. AirBnb is
now no longer cheaper than a mid-budget hotel, and if anything goes wrong at a
hotel, you can dial the front desk and get the problem resolved immediately.
Plus check-in is easy and comfortable and you can often get other perks like
breakfast or a gym.

The last straw was a bug infested cottage in Key West. The owner wasn't
responsive for hours, and finally "dealt" with the issue by giving us a vacuum
and telling us that's what he uses to get rid of them.

------
RankingMember
Reading this made me pissed off _for_ you. AirBnb should have clear
prohibitions on cameras in living quarters, regardless of disclosure. This
host behavior is wayyy out of line.

------
fabioma
I had been having great experiences until I got this place in NYC that when I
just got in, the host started sending me messages on I could and couldn't do.

He told me to get rid of the shoes because I was hurting the floor, that I
shouldn't leave heavy stuff on the sofa because it was brand new (my bag was
on it). For a moment I thought that maybe he told this to everyone and then I
found the camera. It was a 1 bedroom so the camera gave him a full view of the
whole apartment. I covered the camera and decided not to communicate Airbnb
because it was only for a week and I would be barely in the apartment during
the day (it's NYC!). He gave me a great review but I decided to go back to
hotels ever since.

~~~
brbrodude
Now this is just fucked up :p

------
bradleyjg
Given that the entire Airbnb model involves the host, guest, and the company
splitting the profit that comes from pushing externalities onto everyone else
it’s hard to have sympathy for any of them. No honor among thieves and all
that.

~~~
rocqua
The profit doesn't come solely from pushing away externalities. It also
profits by tapping into more transient supply of accommodation by home-owners.
That is, people who happen to own a home but aren't living there at the
moment, or who are willing to share the space.

This doesn't apply to people who buy houses with the intent to airbnb them,
they are purely about avoiding hotel regulations.

------
dev_dull
Regardless of the AirB&B fine print, I think this would likely run afoul to
local and state laws against unauthorized wiretapping. I would be interested
in seeing it play out in court, because that's a pretty serious crime in some
states. I doubt the owner of this unit is fully aware of their liability.

~~~
deogeo
It makes me worried how few people noted this, how quick they are to rely on
corporations instead of the law to punish bad behavior.

------
distant_hat
I've used Airbnbs in the past and some were great but now I'd only use one if
no hotel is available. Recently I traveled to Thailand in the peak season and
no hotel had the full block of dates available that I was looking at. Stayed
at an Airbnb served by some Russian dude. We reach there and he wants a 3000
Baht "deposit", says it is standard. Couldn't argue with it, he agreed to take
a USD100 bill instead. Instead of a receipt he took a photo of me standing
with the USD100 bill and sent it to me :). Returned it back without a fuss but
it was an odd experience.

------
izacus
The fact that AirBnB even allows recording inside of the rented appartments is
utterly mind-boggling to me. I always assumed they'd ban recording or guests
outright. Your home (even a temporarily rented one) is pretty much the primary
place where you should expect complete privacy at all times.

~~~
plusbryan
Agreed. Even if I choose to have recording devices in my home, and then rent
out on a temporary basis, it would be trivial for me to take them down before
renting it out. Plus, I have the financial incentive to do so.

Allowing hosts to have cameras inside the rented space, regardless of
recording state, seems like a bad policy indeed.

The only "legitimate" reason a host would want active cameras in the home is
for protection against bad guests. This belies AirBnB's supposed "host
guarantee" which should prevent this concern in the first place.

~~~
bredren
It doesn't make sense. This is begging to blow up. I predict it does and
AirBnB bans in-home cameras with a threat of removal if found in violation.

People would never put up with this in hotels. Terrible policy by AirBnB.

Not the kind of news you want swarming around your profitability announcement.
I can tell you which one local news is going to broadcast.

------
mynegation
I actually prefer the hotels to Airbnbs. If price difference is not drastic -
hotel. If employer pays - most definitely the hotel! I prefer to have maybe
cookie-cutter but more or less reliable set of things and services available
and not figure out what to find where, what to do, what not to do, read the
goddamn house rules, look for the key under the rug, text some random people
where are they with the key, do you have parking, do you not, etc.

------
dougb5
It looks like Airbnb has a requirement that hosts "disclose all surveillance
devices in their listings": [https://www.airbnb.com/help/article/887/what-are-
airbnb-s-ru...](https://www.airbnb.com/help/article/887/what-are-airbnb-s-
rules-about-electronic-surveillance-devices-in-listings) How could they
possibly say that the vague appearance of a camera in a photo satisfies the
language of this policy?

------
mmckelvy
I think the cracks in "break the rules" startups such as Uber, Airbnb, Tesla,
etc. are starting to show. However, I think these companies have surfaced some
interesting product ideas with accompanying demand. More established players
might be able to adjust the business model a bit and make things more
sustainable.

Ultimately we may not be staying at Airbnbs and driving Teslas, but maybe
we'll be staying at some sort of Marriott "Experiences" boutique and driving
electric cars from GM.

------
clamprecht
Market solution: Airbnb just adds a search feature:

[ ] Only show properties without security cameras

~~~
baby
No, why would any host have security cameras in the living quarters? This is a
huge privacy issue.

~~~
clamprecht
Agreed, it was kind of a "reductio ad absurdum" feature. No one would
knowingly choose it, therefore, allowing cameras is absurd.

------
dannyr
Cameras is Airbnb seem to be more and more common.

I know people who would suddenly get messages from their hosts like "why did
you let somebody not registered in".

It's creepy since the hosts did not disclose that there are cameras.

------
mscasts
That is kind of creepy indeed. In my country you are allowed to video tape
inside your own home and I assume that right extends even if you rent it out
temporarily.

I guess far from every host does this, I would even say it's probably very
rare. But maybe there is a reason to stay in a hotel after all ;)

~~~
7Z7
In general privacy law seem to work under the "expectation of privacy", which
is why you see signs warning of security cameras or monitors showing what they
see.

In a rented room scenario, you obviously have an expectation of privacy up
until someone tells you explicitly that there are cameras in the space, at
which point I guess you can decide whether or not you want to stay there.

So in this case (and depending on local laws, obviously) it seems like the
renter would have to convince a judge that the photo of the room with a white
blob in the corner was enough notice to circumvent that expectation of
privacy.

~~~
rjzzleep
I recently stayed in an AirBnB in Hamburg/Germany. Not only did he write that
it's not a hostel everywhere. He used his smart home to keep the temperature
below the legal limit and had all internals checked setup with cameras without
any information. From the way he talked he also checked whether you exited the
shower(not literally the shower, but the bathroom).

He also had Bottles of sausages and would check through the camera who used
them without paying. He also charged 50 cents for those coffee pads and used
the camera to check on it.

When I asked him to turn on the heater he lied to AirBnB on the phone(which
they recorded) and then assaulted me and kicked me out.

His one listing was removed temporarily but his other listings are still
there. So yeah, even a hostel would have been better.

Edit: the response from AirBnB was way better than the response from German
authorities, but that may have been because they heard everything on the
phone.

~~~
detaro
I seriously hope you reported this to the authorities and not just AirBnB?

~~~
rjzzleep
It's Germany, and I have dark hair. When I went to file a police report the
tall blonde police officer, he and his colleagues were mocking me in the back.

I ended up telling them off and will report it to the tax office. Which, while
nasty seems to be only thing that will get that guy into trouble, Police at
least doesn't care even though he violates a dozen laws including standard
German privacy practice.

~~~
anc84
I am calling bullshit.

There is very little chance that German police in Hamburg would not consider
those alligations serious. Lots of Germans have black hair. Few Germans are
tall and blonde. German police will file your case in any case.

~~~
decebalus1
While an anecdote doesn't prove much, a distant relative of mine with a more
Mediterranean appearance was detained by police in Munchen on allegations that
the bicycle he was riding was stolen as he allegedly fit the description of a
bike thief. After proving them wrong they mocked him saying something like
'how did someone like you managed to land such a high paying job? Do your
colleagues like working with you? I mean you know.. considering... etc..
etc..'. I don't know what happened with his complaints post-factum but it's
not the first time I hear about racist/xenophobe behavior by law enforcement
in Germany.

~~~
woolvalley
What happens if you insinuate that they're going to join the Nazi party next?

------
dbg31415
My biggest gripe is that the cleanliness has gone way down.

It used to be, a few years back, AirBnB would make sure everything was
immaculate. I remember a host letting me in to her house and being embarrassed
that there were garbage bins out front since it was garbage day. Everything
was laundered, sheets were bleached and crisp, everything was on-par with a
5-star hotel.

For whatever reason, now when I stay in AirBnBs it's next to impossible to
find a place that has that level of detail. Supply and demand, I guess. More
people doing it, pressure to lower price, less money for cleaning, less money
for quality linens. Sure... I get it. But it's turned me off AirBnB.

The last place I stayed in had dirty towels. Like they didn't even bother to
put clean towels up, they were damp when we showed up and had someone's makeup
on them. Was gross. I wrote in to complain, and used the dirty towel to wipe
the floor and counter to show that those weren't clean either. The towels were
sort of grey, and came off the floor just black.

And you know what I got? Billed for damaging a towel, they said that because I
used their towel to wipe off their floor that it stained the towel. Likely
wasn't good for the towel, but come on... the place was filthy. AirBnB needs a
"white glove" service -- and I'd be willing to pay extra for this -- to ensure
that everything is on-par with a nice hotel.

~~~
spookthesunset
> AirBnB needs a "white glove" service -- and I'd be willing to pay extra for
> this -- to ensure that everything is on-par with a nice hotel.

Getting a set of clean towels isn't what I would consider "white glove"
service. It seems more like "basic level of service".

------
stunt
Never had a similar experience with Airbnb. But I switched back to Hotels and
I found it way more comfortable and easier. Just good reviews and reasonable
prices. Hotels are in good competition these days and you don't hear these
scary stories about them.

------
John_KZ
I recently tried to book over AirBnB just for the convenience of it. They
requested government id _and_ a new photo of me for verification. They also
(indirectly and insidiously) asked for my permissions so sell all my personal
data listed in the ID (biometrics, height, skin colour, ID number etc). Of
course you'd have to read the privacy policy to know this, and many people
don't. Also their facebook login asked for a list of all my friends as well as
all my likes. What the hell does that have anything to do with them?

I just booked off their platform. It was easier and cheaper, and definitely
more private. I also wouldn't recommend anyone to get vendor-locked so hard as
to have their livelihood depended on this company's policies.

------
rbreve
I have used around 20 airbnbs and had no problems, some are better than
others, I have also used hotels and hostels, with problems, like bedbugs,
noise etc... For a cheapest and more local experience AirBnB is awesome, just
find a good place with good reviews

------
gwbas1c
> I looked at the home guide again, and it did say that there were cameras “at
> the entrance,” which these cameras clearly were not. I contacted AirBnB
> about it, and long story short they said the single photo above was proper
> disclosure of both cameras.

> A lot of other weird stuff happened during this trip stemming from this --
> AirBnB told my host we asked about the cameras, he sent someone to snoop on
> us, he left us a bad review, etc. My favorite has to be when my host
> discovered that I had unplugged the cameras, he wrote:

This is why I prefer established hotels and Yelp. It's much easier to deal
with professional management instead of someone trying to make a quick buck on
the side.

------
projectileboy
I still love Airbnb, but I have the same feeling that I’ve always had about it
and Uber and Lyft and every other sharing economy disruptor - the existing
industries had evolved the way they had for reasons, and the associated
regulatory structures around them also evolved for reasons. After you have
enough thefts and rapes and murders and property destructions over enough
years, Airbnb will necessarily look a _lot_ like a hotel chain, and Uber will
look a _lot_ like a traditional taxi company, and so on and so on.

------
ceocoder
There are two reasons I’ve decided to not use Airbnb again - specially when
I’m overseas.

1) fear of getting locked out of Airbnb. I stayed in an Airbnb in Dublin in
late 2017, place was OK, not too great -cheap ikea bed, cheap ikea couch,
heater that was either tundra or Sahara. However getting in to this place
required memorizing 8 digit number or having your phone on you. After that
stay I genuinely appreciated 24hr staffed front desk where you can get a new
key pretty much instantly.

2) a safe for your valuables (passport) and daily house keeping.

~~~
DangerousPie
Why not just write the number on a piece of paper?!

~~~
decebalus1
because if you get mugged abroad and that piece of paper goes away along with
your wallet, you are shit out of luck. A hotel can give you a lot of support
in situations when you're stranded abroad. On top of granting you access to
the room, they can call people on your behalf, provide a wellfare check in
case you've gone missing, etc..

~~~
ceocoder
Exactly this, I do try to keep note in my wallet but mistakes happen,
wallets/phones get lost/stolen. I like the safety net of having a hotel
frontdesk staff that can help out in the worst case scenario. From a personal
experience - I got really sick during a trip abroad and frontdesk staff sent
someone to a pharmacy to pick-up medicines for me and they were willing to
call doctors if needed.

~~~
decebalus1
I once got the serious runs in a hotel in India. The hotel staff brought in a
doctor.

------
mancerayder
When you read about the litany of issues that guests have, as evidenced here
in these comments, does anyone have better experience with competitors like
HomeAway?

If not it's a gap in the market. For example, for delivery services in the
States you have Seamless, which is like an AirBNB or Uber for restaurants for
delivery (I think only recently Seamless offers delivery people, but before it
was the restaurants that have to provide). But there's now Caviar, which a)
provides excellent customer-first customer service b) curates the restaurants
carefully c) provides their own drivers with meticulous tracking and of
course, the kicker d) costs more.

I would pay for better customer service and proper curation. Yes, even if it
costs the same or MORE than a hotel, I prefer to stay in an apartment when I
travel. I've definitely had a few surprises in AirBNB, but I've had a lot of
delightful stays too with top-notch customer service provided by the host. But
it's a crapshoot! I'll pay more for it not to be a crapshoot. The ratings
system is a joke in my experience. Fine, take away the ratings and let me pay
you more, future Silicon Valley company, for your people to verify the
apartment meets standards and to be available on the phone 24/7 with onshore
staff. I'll pay.

------
dawhizkid
Why would anyone believe that an Airbnb offers the same security, privacy
protections, safety, and comfort of a hotel? I have only stayed in an Airbnb a
few times ever because I can never justify staying in one over a hotel for
these reasons. The product is so unpredictable in the sense that you really
never know what you're going to get until you get there.

From the host perspective, I am still amazed that Airbnb has normalized
letting complete strangers into your home.

------
chauzer
Just to add another +1 on the poor AirBnb customer support...

I rented out my place on AirBnb for 3 weeks and it took nearly a month before
I received my payment from AirBnb. I filed a support ticket with AirBnb and
the support person was extremely slow in responding, sometimes taking 2-3 days
for a response. I had to tweet at AirBnb publicly and post on their public FB
page to get responses. I looked up the AirBnb customer support rep on LinkedIn
and looked like AirBnb has a good amount of their customer support staff
abroad in Asia. Their support team told me it was an issue on their end but
wouldn't go into details. It was obviously an issue when i went to the billing
section on AirBnb and saw 500 errors when using Chrome's debugger to see the
traffic. I was close to just tweeting at AirBnb Engineering to offer some help
to fix their bug when I hadn't been paid thousands of dollars for putting my
home on AirBnb for a month. It finally got resolved and I got a couple hundred
dollars in AirBnb credit for my troubles.

------
arthurofbabylon
Many of the complaints of mistreatment illustrate a feature of this housing
marketplace: big capital assets are in control, not the demand.

This runs counter to many other marketplaces millennials (+- 10 years) are
used to. Shoes? Chocolate? Restaurants? Types of alcohol? Transportation?
Whatever the customer wants, the customer gets.

It’s a simple reality that Airbnb will align with the host who brings in
$10-30k/yr over even the frequent traveler who spends $1-10k.

I’m super interested in understanding how this might bite Airbnb or open
opportunities for competitors. I’m very curious about these huge economic,
behavioral shifts and what they mean for the quality of a product/service and
how these services align with humanity’s best interests.

~~~
bredren
Reasonably, AirBnB has already served its purpose. It has bludgeoned the
hospitality industry forcing it to be more competitive. [1]

There is real opportunity for hotels to earn back customers and they should
get this chance.

Due to hotel architecture they do not have the same problems as one-off airbnb
units in neighborhoods. So they should reasonably consider offering greater
privacy and reliability.

That said, the Marriott hack did not do them any favors.

[1]
[https://www.forbes.com/sites/hbsworkingknowledge/2018/02/27/...](https://www.forbes.com/sites/hbsworkingknowledge/2018/02/27/the-
airbnb-effect-cheaper-rooms-for-travelers-less-revenue-for-
hotels/#35db2e9ad672)

~~~
chii
Hotels can't operate at the slim margin that would allow them to compete with
airbnn, otherwise, they would already have.

Vast majority of customers choose on price, and hotels offering privacy just
doesn't seem like it'd be a selling point, esp. if the feature is assumed
default already.

~~~
bredren
Enough more stories like this and the anecdotal testimony ITT becoming
mainstream opinion might suggest otherwise.

------
trumped
Maybe airbnb renters should be required to post clearly labeled snapshots of
what each camera sees in their listings... a bit like this:
[https://i.imgur.com/Fg9R0D6.png](https://i.imgur.com/Fg9R0D6.png)

~~~
baby
they should be forbidden to have cameras inside the house, period.

------
M2Ys4U
Who would have thought that an unregulated industry would be so hostile to
customers?!

------
paulie_a
I've had varying Airbnb experience but always positive. A couple were just
cheapo rooms to lay my head. The best was on a private vineyard, the house
rules said no one in the hot tub after ten. We asked if it could be 11-11:30
and we will be respectful of noise. "Sure no problem". The hosts cooked us
breakfast and we chatted over coffee. They were the perfect balance of leaving
us alone and engaging. Even gave us a really cool tour of the property before
we left. They had no complaints about us, we wrote a glowing review. A couple
weeks later we got a small gift in the mail.

------
dillondoyle
I just had an absolutely horrible experience with Airbnb & Airbnb 'support.'
So bad in fact I'm exploring my options to go to arbitration though that's
mostly an emotional reaction since I'm fairly sure it would be a waste of
time.

I've gone from spending months a year in AirBnbs to now planning to never use
the service ever again.

Airbnb used to be almost magical but the last three bookings I had have been
progressively more horrendous and support is maddening. I'd be happy to share
my recent experiences but I don't have any social clout to attempt to get
anything out of it :(

------
plusbryan
When you stay at a hotel, you are definitely being recorded in hallways and
most public areas. AirBNB should modify their policy to allow hosts to have
recording devices outside their home (public spaces), but blanket ban any
recording devices inside (off or on). Significant fines/banning would result
from discovery. This policy would not deter legitimate hosts, while
significantly reducing the likelihood of a PR disaster involving serendipitous
recording.

This "as long as it is disclosed" policy invites grey areas like described in
this post.

------
jedberg
I just looked this up so I could be wrong, but as far as I can tell there are
no regulations at the federal level or the state level that prevent hotels
from having cameras in the room. There are 12 states with laws that prevent
you from recording someone without their knowledge, which would apply to both
hotels and AirBnBs, and anyone else.

So really, the only reason hotels are "safer" in this regard is because they
seem to be more concerned with protecting their reputation.

------
camtarn
"What was I trying to hide on New Year’s Eve..."

Something like this, presumably:

[https://www.theguardian.com/travel/2016/jan/07/airbnb-new-
ye...](https://www.theguardian.com/travel/2016/jan/07/airbnb-new-years-eve-
disaster-stories-around-the-world)

It's not an excuse for the owner being an ass, or the inappropriate camera
placement and lack of proper disclosure, though.

~~~
alkonaut
What is appropriate camera placement in an AirBnB property? I wouldn't accept
it anywhere in a hotel suite, so nowhere in an AirBnB property either.

Step 1 to adapt my own apartment to be possible to AirBnB would be to remove
any cameras.

~~~
chii
Don't most hotels have cameras in the hallway? How is that different from
having camera out in the property?

~~~
alkonaut
Likely yes. I’d say that’s the same as having a camera outside the front door
(the hotel room being the equivalent of the whole apartment/house, not the
equivalent of a bedroom of course)

------
alkonaut
AirBnB should launch a surveillance/alarm product that is a combined alarm and
camera, which allows the host to look at camera images when the property
property is empty ONLY (i.e. when the guest has left the property and armed
the alarm)

It would need to have e.g. a mechanically closed lens that opens when the
alarm is armed in the home (so no one is home).

This product could also include other helpful things for AirBnB like a smart
lock etc.

~~~
drm237
Why would anyone want a security camera that only worked when a property was
empty? Wouldn't that defeat the point of having a security camera?

~~~
alkonaut
The camera is on when the property is _supposed_ to be empty, that is, when
the alarm is armed and the guest is not there. The camera is for monitoring
the _property_ with a guarantee that the _guests_ are not monitored. This is
similar to how a hotel works. I expect the hotel management to be able to go
in to my hotel room when I'm not there (to repair something, clean etc.) but I
also expect complete privacy when I'm in there.

I have cameras in my house that are used together with motion detectors as
part of my home alarm system. If the alarm goes off I can see whether the
alarm was triggered by my christmas tree falling over or by a burglar. They
aren't used when the alarm isn't on. If I were to rent my house out on airbnb
I'd probably cover or disconnect the cameras, becauuse I couldn't make a guest
trust that they are only part of the alarm system. That's why a product that
guaranteed it would be good.

------
baobabKoodaa
I'm astounded by the number of people here insinuating that the hotel industry
is any better. I realize I've probably been lucky with my AirBnb visits and
unlucky with my hotel visits, but still...

Several times I've ran into hotels which advertise AC, but when you get there
you realize it's impossible to get acceptable room temperature. When you
contact the front desk, they simply tell you that during [this time of year]
the entire AC system of the hotel has been set to [heat/cool] and we can not
set an individual room to [cool/heat] even if it is 27C inside the room.

One time there was a sewage smell coming from the bathroom strong enough to be
sensed in the bedroom. The front desk again did nothing to alleviate the
problem, going as far as lying that they are unable to move us to another room
because all the rooms are booked (despite us seeing very few guests in the
hallways, indicating the hotel was mostly empty at the time).

Another time the hotel staff badgered us for extra money throughout our stay
despite that the hole stay was paid for in advance. They claimed that we had
"erroneously" been given too low of a rate ($200/night for a small room in
Milan) because we had used a "bad agent" (a booking site they apparently
disliked, yet chose to work with anyway). They had knowledge of our booking
for a long time, and instead of contacting us before our trip, they badger us
for additional payments after we arrive?

These are not really isolated incidents. The majority of the time I visit a
hotel, something is wrong to the extent that I never want to visit that
particular hotel again. In contrast 100% of my AirBnb experiences have been
good so far.

------
Tsubasachan
This is a tough one. There are some seriously nuts and creepy people out
there. If you use Airbnb with your teenage kids and somebody has hidden a
camera somewhere for their own personal pleasure what can Airbnb do? Inspect
every property that they list?

At least with a hotel the owners usually care about their business and
reputation.

~~~
ilikehurdles
At some point if they don’t start inspecting every property they list, then a
competitor will come out with a selling point on inspections and
trustworthiness.

~~~
oh_sigh
Then the creepy owners will just add a camera after the inspection happens.

------
somada141
I'm about to embark on a nomadic trip so I will be depending on AirBnBs and
hotels a lot. Can I just ask: If the host has not disclosed
security/surveillance but such equipment is present am I allowed to run de-
auth attacks against the cameras so I can 'disable' them temporarily?

~~~
jononor
Let the owner know via AirBnB that they need to disclose it. Then just put a
piece of tape over it. Why make it more complicated than need be...

~~~
somada141
You have a point :D. But I would expect AirBnB owners to lie about it and me
being unable to find it when it's hidden in a plant or something. I was mostly
curious about any legal ramifications that would come up if I decided to take
my privacy in my own hands.

------
kawsper
This is becoming a bigger problem lately, it is now part of my routine to de-
bug Airbnbs, first by unplugging all visible cameras, then by scanning the
network for other equipment, but maybe we also need to shut off the lights and
look for IR noise to find hidden non-network cameras.

~~~
chii
It'd be interesting to see if you can purchase a wide angle, high-powered IR
beam and just shutdown all cameras by overloading them.

------
andrewstuart
It's a pretty big opening for the hotel industry to be able to fight back
against AirBNB by saying "stay at a hotel, it's safe, you won't be robbed,
given a bad review, or spied on by hidden cameras".

------
JamesAdir
I'm reading this thread comment by comment and it just reminds me of the
PayPal stories right before Stripe entered the industry. It seems that the
market is ready for a new competitor.

------
intrasight
If you only stay in Airbnb "bed and breakfasts" you'll likely have none of the
issues described in these comments. Plus, I like to meet my host and have them
make me breakfast.

------
btbuildem
I guess part of the check-in procedure is now to scan the local network and
set up IR blinders in private spaces. Sheesh.

~~~
nvahalik
I hear LiDARs are good at damaging cameras...

~~~
dylan604
While I totally get your reference and tounge-in-cheek nature, you'd be
responsible for damages. Besides super bright UV LED device would be much
cheaper and easier to carry with you.

------
yosefzeev
Yeah, we had some weird experiences at an Air B and B which seemed to be part
of an ongoing attack that we were experiencing at the time. You can read about
all that here if you are so
inclined:[https://www.scribd.com/document/389212460/Antisemitism-in-
We...](https://www.scribd.com/document/389212460/Antisemitism-in-Western-
Kentucky)

------
bsenftner
Airbnb is nobody's friend except the CEO and stockholders. Have a problem,
tough. File a lawsuit, now we're communicating. This is how Capitalism works.

~~~
RankingMember
I feel like we need some sort of hub for consumers to get together and share
cost of initiating legal action. When you're solo, you are indeed powerless in
this system.

~~~
chii
That's class action lawsuits. It should be easier for consumers to make them.

------
Teknoman117
Every AirBnB I've been at in the last two years has had internal cameras...

------
oskkejdjdkjd
Any implementation of sharing living quarters with other people has too many
problems. People nowadays don’t understand what it means to be clean. Back wen
cleanliness was up to you and of great practical importance, people were aware
of beg bugs, Scabies, fleas, dust mites and the such like. Bed bugs are
_disgusting_ and when you stay in a hotel of any kind you risk picking them
up. Their eggs stick to you, your luggage, everything and you trail them
everywhere you go, including your own house. I just don’t understand why
people want to sleep in bug infested cum stained shit hole shared rooms. I
sleep in my car instead and while it’s not as nice as a room, it’s a lot
better than sharing.

~~~
therealx
Over worried a bit much, no? A large majority of people staying in any given
shared living place do not get bed bugs. Plus staying in your car doesn't
really fly when you have a family or take an airplane and have no car.

~~~
oskkejdjdkjd
Yeah. I still massively prefer carrying my own space with me if possible. But
actually I think hotels could be an option even for people like me. If rooms
were properly constructed then they wouldn’t be able to harbor any parasites
at all and it would be possible to clean them _thouroughly_ and properly
between guests. If I were to start a hotel, I would make public the methods of
cleaning and then offer some kind of verification for each guest. Like the
receipt checklist you get on a ups, your room would come with some kind of
receipt of cleaning. Mattresses would be sealed in plastic. All cloth goods
like sheets and curtains would be autoclaved and come with proof of having
been so. I honestly think hotels focus way too much on making rooms look homey
and warm. Give me a small barren room that’s 100 percent guaranteed to be
clean.

------
StavrosK
Is this really a camera? It looks like an infrared motion detector from the
(low resolution) photo. It has an opaque bit of white plastic in the front,
which makes for a terrible camera protector, but is what PIR motion detectors
use.

------
resters
This blog post is not true and not fair. Airbnb specifies that there must be
textual disclosure of any cameras, and there is a section on the listing page
that shows them.

It's also very rare for a security system to include indoor cameras. My own
uses motion detectors to provide information about climate control and
lighting needs, but absolutely no interior cameras.

It's not clear to me that the object in the picture is a camera. If it is, I
do think the host should rethink having cameras in a bedroom, but if that's
what it takes for him/her to feel comfortable renting out the home, then as
long as it's disclosed clearly, then it's OK.

~~~
timc3
I don’t think its rare at all if its a managed security system. Ours came with
cameras that are only on when the alarm is on.

------
mannykannot
"Will we be expected to review similarly complex documents/photos every time
we enter a physical space? How can we avoid the illusion of consent that we
currently have in the online world?"

You could start by understanding that when you participate in an activity that
is attempting to extend the online experience into the physical world, that
might be exactly what you get. Caveat emptor.

------
matz1
I just assume that there will be camera constantly recording when I stay in
airbnb, or anywhere really. They way I never have to worry about whether it
exist or not. As recording technology becoming more and more advance, it's
less and less reasonable to expect privacy. I rather adapt my life to fit this
new culture.

~~~
RankingMember
I think expecting privacy will always be the reasonable approach. Giving bad
actors an out because "oh well the technology's so advanced now let's just
accept it" is giving creeps a pass.

~~~
matz1
I didn't say giving bad actor an out. Just because you have information
doesn't mean you are allowed to use the information to harm me. Its still
illegal to do so.

~~~
alkonaut
I'd be hesitant to have surveillance equipment or anything that could be
_mistaken_ for surveillance equipment because a review that there is a camera
in any of a landlord's properties would mean I'm not renting from them, ever.

I really don't care whether they _use_ whatever is recorded in a bad way or
not.

~~~
matz1
Sure, its your choice.

