
What would you like to see most in minix? (1991) - xanth
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/comp.os.minix/dlNtH7RRrGA/SwRavCzVE7gJ
======
johnyzee
Reminds me of this guy writing a small web crawler in Java a couple of years
ago:

[https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/comp.lang.java/aSPAJO0...](https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/comp.lang.java/aSPAJO05LIU/ushhUIQQ-
ogJ)

~~~
pmtarantino
If you think about it, it is like an infinite loop. Someone asking about
creating Google in a Google forum.

~~~
ajross
You surely know this, but for clarity: it's a Usenet group. Google inherited a
huge Usenet archive when they acquired Deja News and used it as the core of
what eventually became Google Groups. But it was never a corporate-maintained
forum. Usenet was always distributed.

~~~
pmtarantino
Yes, I knew it :)

------
nraynaud
I modern Linus-speak, I guess it would be:

"Hi minix fucktards, I'm doing a (free) operating system (just a hobby, won't
be retarded like gnu) for stupid 386(486) AT clones. This has been brewing
since april, and is starting to get ready. I'd like you to take your stupid
feedback on things people like/dislike in minix, as my OS resembles it
somewhat (same physical layout of the file-system (due to practical reasons)
among other things), print it on A4 paper, roll it and shove it up your ass.

I've currently ported bash(1.08) and gcc(1.40), and things seem to work. This
implies that I'll get something as practical as having to re-compile the
kernel to use a new printer within a few months, and I'd like to know what
features most people would want so that I can insult a larger audience in less
posts. Any suggestions are welcome, as I like to teach Finish swearing. "

~~~
jlgreco
Funny, though it is abundantly clear that you are not familiar with Linus's
standard tone and vocabulary.

A Linus email doesn't typically make news unless it is vitriolic. You have a
selection bias.

~~~
nraynaud
It's totally true, and even when it's vitriolic and in the news I would
probably just read the title and skip the article.

~~~
jlgreco
Ah, some of them are very high quality though! Take this one for example:

    
    
      Ok, I have a better plan.
    
       - you learn to fly by flapping your arms fast enough
       - you then learn to pee burning gasoline
       - then, you fly around New York, setting everybody you see on fire, until 
         people make you emperor.
    
      Sounds like a good plan, no?
    

[http://www.gelato.unsw.edu.au/archives/git/0506/5299.html](http://www.gelato.unsw.edu.au/archives/git/0506/5299.html)

No matter how many times I read that, I always laugh.

~~~
rmccue
I love Linus' followup to this later:

    
    
        On Mon, 13 Jun 2005 linux@horizon.com wrote:
        > 
        > > But perhaps slightly impractical.
        > 
        > There are just few laws of physics it violates.
    
        Yeah, yeah. You avoided a few laws of phsyics of your own.
    
        [...]
    
        My plan was more interesting, I feel.
    

[http://www.gelato.unsw.edu.au/archives/git/0506/5308.html](http://www.gelato.unsw.edu.au/archives/git/0506/5308.html)

------
jason_tko
One of the most enjoyable things about reading this that even in the first 3
usenet messages, Linus states engineering tradeoffs cleanly, simply and un-
apologetically.

All qualities that Linus was to become famous (and infamous) for, before Linux
was even fully formed.

------
ck2
There is something disturbing about people being able to comment on a
historical thread like that years later.

Like someone scribbling on a precious museum artifact.

Eh maybe I am being silly.

~~~
ww2
agree. Those who replied "thanks" in the thread do not have any sense.

~~~
gcb0
in 50 years, someone link to that thread and point out "the inventor of cold
fusion replied 'thanks linus' on the linux creation thread"

~~~
comex
Not to be confused with Jeremy Allaire, who did not. :)

------
tootie
"Anybody who needs more than 64Mb/task - tough cookies"

The beginning of his verbal abuse seemed so innocent.

~~~
sitkack
He has more in common with Bill Gates than he probably would like to admit
(640k aught to be ...), yeah yeah, snopes. ;)

------
omegaham
I've always been fascinated by "made it big" stories. It doesn't really matter
which genre - every story is unique. From a band that goes from playing in
dive bars to playing in arenas to a web startup like Facebook, it's
interesting. And it's really cool to see things like this because it's
history. Maybe it's also a reminder that you don't have to be a corporate team
with focus groups and handsome funding to make something that people want.

Even if it's extremely unlikely, it still gives the same feelings that a
vintage "Radiohead - playing tonight in Mickey's Beer Cave" poster inspires in
a struggling band. They were in your shoes, and they made it big. Maybe you
can too if you work hard enough. Sure, there was a lot of luck involved... but
it's _possible_.

------
ics
I'm impressed by how well received it was, right off the bat. The first couple
responses include actual offers of help! Maybe it's just because there are so
many new projects posted here regularly but it seems rare to see that mix of
humbleness and enthusiasm present in the thread.

~~~
mro
I was only six at the time, so I don't have first hand knowledge, but from
what I gather there was no really free kernel/operating system at that time.
Minix was under license restrictions, the BSDs was tied up in legal battles,
and GNU was still on it's endless search for the perfect kernel.

Linux was sorely needed at the time!

~~~
cmbaus
The other thing to remember was Windows was still 16 bit at the time. Linux
started off as 32bit. Being free was great, but I would have also (and did)
payed for a 32 bit operating system at the time. I actually used OS/2 in the
mid-90s before moving to Linux.

I can't stress enough how basic it was. Getting the kernel up and running was
only 1/2 the battle. Getting X to run was a significant undertaking, and
probably more difficult.

------
mathattack
"just a hobby, won't be big and professional like gnu"

Is there a bigger understatement in tech history? It certainly rivals Thomas
Watson's alleged quote of the world market being "Approximately 5 computers".

~~~
eksith
If we take "Cloud" to mean "Computer" or rather "Disparate systems functioning
as one", then he's almost right. How many people use AWS or Google Apps now?

If it's true that more and more services are moving to the cloud and this
trend won't change, there may well be "Approximately 5 computers" some time in
the future.

~~~
mseebach
If we radically change the meaning of "right" then he's almost right. If right
keeps its commonly accepted meaning then he's wrong.

Even if we accept that AWS and Google is each one computer, there's still the
~3 devices of an average techie (smartphone, tablet, one or more laptops or
desktop computers), all of which are definitely computers and works fully
independently, we're going to end up many orders of magnitude north of "5".

------
mikeevans
Linus made a post for the occasion on his G+ page:
[https://plus.google.com/102150693225130002912/posts/Hy9pzJok...](https://plus.google.com/102150693225130002912/posts/Hy9pzJokRjc)

~~~
thought_alarm
I wonder if _that_ post (or this post) will be around in 22 years (2035).

------
jasonlotito
For those that like reading about these sorts of things, I highly recommend
Just For Fun. It's a short book, but one I enjoy going back to every now and
then to read.

[http://www.amazon.com/Just-Fun-Story-Accidental-
Revolutionar...](http://www.amazon.com/Just-Fun-Story-Accidental-
Revolutionary/dp/0066620724)

~~~
notfunk
nice! just ordered a used copy =)

------
patmcguire
All the 386-specific stuff seems like an argument in favor of "do things that
don't scale."

~~~
asveikau
My memory of 1990s Linux development is hazy (I was a young kid at the time),
but my recollection is ~5 years after this post they paid a huge cost in
effort to get it to work on Alpha, and after that the required effort to port
to other stuff went down. So maybe it's more like "simple initial
implementation, massive rewrite later".

Edit: Also worth noting that the 386 was the first "modern" Intel CPU in terms
of instruction set and interfaces provided to kernel developers, so requiring
32-bit CPU with an MMU excludes a lot of machines in 1991 but not so many
machines in the years that followed. What he's saying is he won't port to 286
which is a very obvious decision but maybe not so much if your frame of
reference was Minix.

(Later on I do seem to remember there used to be a port of Linux to MMU-less
varieties of 68K in the late 90s, like some of the other replies are asking
for. Not sure how well it ever worked.)

~~~
cwzwarich
A variant of Linux for CPUs without MMUs lives on as
[http://www.uclinux.org/](http://www.uclinux.org/).

~~~
kristoffer
Actually since about 2.6 uCLinux has been merged into the mainline kernel.
Several MMU less targets are supported.

------
felixr
I think we need somebody to update the title every second or so...

~~~
TeMPOraL
Maybe that will keep moderators busy enough so that they won't have time to
break^H^H^H^H^Hedit titles of other submissions. </sarcasm>

~~~
jacquesm
'improve' is the word you are looking for.

~~~
wging
Sometimes titles are improved by moderator intervention--other times it's the
opposite. Sometimes titles lose bias, but sometimes they become inaccurate or
generic-to-the-point-of-madness.

~~~
Thrymr
I would argue that this title could be improved, quite a bit.

 _edit:_ The original title was "22 years 16 hours 48 minutes 25 seconds ago".
It has now been improved (IMO).

------
raverbashing
Well, let's see

Won't support non AT-Disks

Not portable, and needs an MMU

Lame :)

~~~
mst
And that's why CmdrTaco would rather have a Nomad

------
daigoba66
Imagine if Linux was built today the same way many contemporary startups are
(particularly from a marketing perspective).

~~~
lclarkmichalek
linux.io? Could work I guess.

~~~
droopyEyelids
Linux.io is a social operating system with a beautiful minimalist interface
that allows you and those closest to you to interact with the computers that
matter

~~~
ianhawes
Linux.io has been acquired by Yahoo, Inc. and will be shutting down effective
October 1st, 2013.

~~~
hyyypr
Thanks guys, you made my day x)

------
JonSkeptic
I have a hard time believing the authenticity of this, I didn't even see one
insult or curse word.

~~~
sidcool
Linus was good tempered back in those days. He still is, but he used to too.

~~~
michaelgrafl
For those unlucky souls who have yet to encounter the ingenious humor of Mitch
Hedberg: this is a reference to the Mitch Hedberg quote that goes like this:

"I used to do drugs. I still do, but I used to, too."

Other notables (pulled from his Wikipedia entry):

"I bought a $7 pen because I always lose pens and I got sick of not caring."

"I'm against picketing, but I don't know how to show it."

"I haven't slept for ten days, because that would be too long."

~~~
BlackDeath3
"The depressing thing about tennis is that no matter how good I get, I'll
never be as good as a wall."

------
nrivadeneira
It'll be interesting to look back on StackOverflow posts one day to find
little gems like this where users are trying to get help on what may become
the next Google or Facebook.

------
pearjuice
What you guys are referring to as Linux, is in fact, GNU/Linux, or as I've
recently taken to calling it, GNU plus Linux. Linux is not an operating system
unto itself, but rather another free component of a fully functioning GNU
system made useful by the GNU corelibs, shell utilities and vital system
components comprising a full OS as defined by POSIX.

Many computer users run a modified version of the GNU system every day,
without realizing it. Through a peculiar turn of events, the version of GNU
which is widely used today is often called "Linux", and many of its users are
not aware that it is basically the GNU system, developed by the GNU Project.

There really is a Linux, and these people are using it, but it is just a part
of the system they use. Linux is the kernel: the program in the system that
allocates the machine's resources to the other programs that you run. The
kernel is an essential part of an operating system, but useless by itself; it
can only function in the context of a complete operating system. Linux is
normally used in combination with the GNU operating system: the whole system
is basically GNU with Linux added, or GNU/Linux. All the so-called "Linux"
distributions are really distributions of GNU/Linux.

~~~
NelsonMinar
Of all the places to grind this ax, you'd pick the place where we're
discussing Linus's historical announcement of his brand new kernel? A year
before the word "Linux" was ever coined? In a discussion of a message where he
talks about porting two specific GNU programs as evidence of how serious he
is?

~~~
chrismonsanto
This is a common troll copypaste, I think originating at 4chan. It is unclear
if Stallman ever said/wrote those words. Generally it starts with 'I'd just
like to interject for a moment'

Edit: evidence that the first paragraph is real?
[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QlD9UBTcSW4](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QlD9UBTcSW4)
(from
[http://www.reddit.com/r/gnu/comments/hv56g/source_of_the_fam...](http://www.reddit.com/r/gnu/comments/hv56g/source_of_the_famous_id_like_to_interject_for_a/))

~~~
NelsonMinar
It's hard to tell the deliberate trolls from the accidental ones sometimes.

------
genericbrandx
QOTD - "just a hobby, won't be big and professional like gnu"

~~~
jlas
I am guessing he was referring to the GNU OS, hurd. In retrospect this is
quite funny considering hurd has yet to see a (production) release to this
day.
[http://www.gnu.org/software/hurd/hurd.html](http://www.gnu.org/software/hurd/hurd.html)

~~~
nkuttler
Well, he was probably referring to the Hurd, a kernel which was/is supposed to
be the official kernel for GNU (not GNU OS btw). As Linux came with a GNU
userland from the start and the discussion is specifically about the kernel
it's hard to imagine he meant something else.

------
niuzeta
This is like what Caesar's _bellum gallicum_ was to historians...

~~~
_ZeD_
*De bello gallico

(or, if you prefer, "Commentarii de bello Gallico")

~~~
niuzeta
You. I like you.

------
lcasela
This is never gonna take off.

Come back and post when you have a cutesy domain.

------
bmmayer1
Excuse my ignorance, but how does a Google Group thread predate Google?

~~~
cstuder
By acquiring Deja News, which was a Usenet web client.

([http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_Groups#Deja_News](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_Groups#Deja_News))

~~~
dredmorbius
And more importantly: archive.

------
mrt0mat0
fascinating to look at the beginning of something that has become so huge.
millions of phones run on a linux kernel, as well as all those tablets, pcs,
and other random devices. i wonder if that email will ever go into a historic
museum one day.

~~~
dualogy
Not forgetting a vast amount of web servers..

------
mrsmartypants
[https://plus.google.com/+Linux/posts/f96weYxzEu1](https://plus.google.com/+Linux/posts/f96weYxzEu1)

------
zura
What would [not] happen if Minix was free...

------
pmelendez
That's a very humble first post...

~~~
deathanatos
Especially given,

> It is NOT protable (uses 386 task switching etc), and it probably never will
> support anything other than AT-harddisks

I've always wondered about the humbleness in that post. Whenever I talk about
something I've created, I try to be humble about it. That said, inside, I'm of
course wishing that it becomes the biggest bestest piece of software that
(insert favorite large tech company you want to see collapse here) never saw
coming and eventually rules the world. I can't help but wonder if Linus was
thinking that at the time.

~~~
jasomill
Reminds me of Alan Kay's attitude[1] in naming "Smalltalk":

 _The name was also a reaction against the "IndoEuropean god theory" where
systems were named Zeus, Odin, and Thor, and hardly did anything. I figured
that "Smalltalk" was so innocuous a label that if it ever did anything nice
people would be pleasantly surprised._

[1]
[http://www.smalltalk.org/smalltalk/TheEarlyHistoryOfSmalltal...](http://www.smalltalk.org/smalltalk/TheEarlyHistoryOfSmalltalk_III.html#OriginOfSmalltalksName)

------
ivanbrussik
BSD sockets first feature request ever

------
loser777
That insistence on his operating system being __NOT __portable put a nice
smile on my face.

------
rozzer
Here is a timeline of big events in the past
[http://www.google.com/googlegroups/archive_announce_20.html](http://www.google.com/googlegroups/archive_announce_20.html)

~~~
forrestpitz
This is really fascinating. I would love to read these through. If anyone has
an updated list, or a way to translate that would be amazing.

------
FrankenPC
Rack this up in the weird coincidence category. Saturday night me and an old
buddy of mine were talking about EXACTLY this. The incarnation of LINUX.

------
sirsar
> _just a recompilation of the kernel_

"just"

Inconceivable now, with out-of-the-box systems e.g. Ubuntu, but this was
fairly common relatively recently.

~~~
deathanatos
Recompiling the Linux kernel is "inconceivable now"?

If anything, I wonder if it didn't take longer to recompile back then. I'm
lucky to have 8 very bored cores to throw at the job. He didn't.

~~~
acheron
I compiled many FreeBSD kernels on a Pentium (no bloody Pro, II, III, or 4).
That took long enough, but was several times faster than a 386.

------
state
I have always thought of this as one of the best ways to start off a project.
Be humble, ask for feedback, and share your work.

------
dpweb
The guy creates Linux and Git. A true hero.

~~~
vvpan
I think I remember reading him saying that git became popular because he
created it. In other words due to hype.

~~~
simula67
That certainly may be one reason. Another reason may be that he understood the
problem he was solving _extremely_ well.

------
oz
What? I never knew that Linux & I were both born on August 26! (I'm older by a
few years, though :)

~~~
hcarvalhoalves
You know you're young when you download a tarball and can find files with a
timestamp older than you.

~~~
deathanatos
Yeah, especially that timestamp "31 Dec 1969" — seems to be all over the
place.

~~~
grecy
I get people at work asking me about that on a weekly basis. I have the Picard
facepalm printed in my cube.

------
lcasela
Nice find.

------
hyperbovine
What?

~~~
gamegoblin
This is a copy of the original post about Linux by Linus Torvalds, back when
it was his toy pet project.

~~~
hyperbovine
I gather. Is 22 years 16 hours 48 minutes 25 seconds significant in some way?

~~~
nkuttler
Such a time interval is commonly referred to as 'birthday'.

