

In Paris, the customer is not always right - transmit101
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/from_our_own_correspondent/8500246.stm

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electromagnetic
Having spent much time in Paris during my lifetime, and far more in France
itself, I'm very doubtful of this piece. In my entire life, I've only met one
rude service provider in France and incidentally he was Croatian and despite
speaking fluent French he had a heavy accent I couldn't understand.

I have a _strong_ suspicion the author of this piece is violating basic
etiquette on a regular basis. The key to the French is to start any
conversation with 'Bonjour' regardless of if you know French or not, because
90% of the time you won't even get a chance to use a second word in French,
especially in Paris where virtually everyone in the tourist areas speak decent
English.

I remember me and my wife were in a little bistro near the Eiffel Tower, I
took the lead and ordered. I got about half-way through before the waiter
interrupted me and let me finish my order in English as it made it easier for
both of us. Two or three tables down we saw an American couple (I'm guessing
New York area by the accents), they got the same waiter as I did, but they
said 'hello' and started trying to order in English. The waiter played coy, he
didn't let on he knew English their entire meal, I think it took them
5-minutes to get through the entire order with him.

I find it quite moronic that people visit a foreign country and don't even
bother to learn how to introduce themselves. I expect non-English immigrants
to my country to at least know some basics, and 99% of them seem to. However
the majority of English-speakers who go to France invite this trouble onto
themselves by not even bothering to use a single word of the native language.

I've been to France, Spain (and several Spanish islands where dialects and
customs differ a fair amount), Portugal and Turkey and I've never had this
problem, because I always introduce myself in the local language. I remember
getting a discount on speedboat rental in Turkey, the guy stopped us speaking
Turkish (quite thankfully, because I think we got through the A-material in
the first 3-words) and explained in English that we're one of the few
'Anglo's' in months to actually try speaking Turkish.

Common courtesy in a foreign country goes a _long_ way, but most people are
too ignorant to understand. In France, Spain, Portugal and Turkey if you spoke
the local language, people appeared to bend over backwards to help you because
you just showed them immense respect, not just personal respect but to their
nation too.

~~~
Vitaly
This is ridiculous. The waiter pretended not to know English just because a
tourist said 'hello' instead of 'Bonjour'? WTF?

An example of a waiter being an ass. And I think a very good example
continuing the theme of the original post.

I see absolutely no reason to say 'hello' in language X if I'm going to
proceed speaking English. I'm trying to communicate, not to impress with my
language knowledge. This just doesn't make sense. Hello is a greeting like any
other, and it is accepted all over the world, except France that is.

~~~
elblanco
Your feelings are exactly why the waiter behaved as he did. Day after day of
dealing with people with attitudes like this would sour anybody who couldn't
even be bothered to put forth the effort to say "hello" in the local language,
which requires about as much effort as drinking a cup of coffee.

~~~
bonaldi
It's not about the effort of saying "hello". If you don't know the language,
it's reasonable not to try and begin a conversation in it -- what do you do
when they reply with a rush of words you don't understand?

What they should have done was learned "Parlez-vous Anglais?"

~~~
elblanco
> what do you do when they reply with a rush of words you don't understand?

It's not that hard...in fact I'd go so far as to say that it's so easy it's a
non-issue. Just start pointing and speaking in very simple English after the
introduction and unless they have an IQ that fluctuates with the ambient
temperature, they'll get the picture. More importantly they'll at least
appreciate you gave the old "being polite" a shot and be more inclined to
help. Opening with English, like you expect them to serve you in your
language, which just feeds into the popular global view of Americans and
native English speakers, very rarely works.

Even if you expect help in English, it's how you package it up that matters.
Rolling in, appearing that you are _expecting_ to be helped in English makes
people less inclined to help you. Bookending your interaction in "local", with
"thank you" and other politeness as you can interspersed throughout packages
up your expectations in a polite bow.

If you still get treated rudely even after you demonstrate that you are
willing to try and meet them halfway in the interaction...it's likely just a
rude person.

I wish that more of my countrymen and fellow native English speakers
understood this type of basic politeness.

------
dkarl
This is a cultural difference that, at least according to one theory, actually
reflects an authoritarian culture rather than an egalitarian one. It comes
down to why people follow orders. In egalitarian societies, people see the
ability of one person to tell another person what to do as role-based, purely
for the sake of efficiency. In authoritarian societies, people see it as based
on the personal superiority or privilege of the person giving the order.

This can cause friction when two people from different cultures step on each
other's sensibilities. A person with an egalitarian mentality working in a
corporation in a less egalitarian country may be shocked at the way his
"superiors" speak to him -- as if they were any better than him! A person from
an authoritarian country may be offended when someone who is not his
"superior" tries to "order him around," because "giving orders" presumes a
hierarchical relationship between the two.

From my point of view, it's quite convenient that I feel free to tell other
people what to do, or do what other people tell me, without worrying about
whether that implies a power relationship between us (+). But then, I would
feel that way about my own culture, wouldn't I?

For one analysis, see this book, which is oriented towards management and
business communications:

[http://www.amazon.com/Cultures-Organizations-Software-
Geert-...](http://www.amazon.com/Cultures-Organizations-Software-Geert-
Hofstede/dp/0071439595/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1265599541&sr=8-1)

The author identified five dimensions that he thinks are the most informative
about national cultural differences. This how France and the United States
compare:

[http://www.geert-
hofstede.com/hofstede_dimensions.php?cultur...](http://www.geert-
hofstede.com/hofstede_dimensions.php?culture1=95&culture2=33#compare)

Note that France scores much higher on the Power Distance dimension, which
attempts to measure "the extent to which the less powerful members of
organizations and institutions (like the family) accept and expect that power
is distributed unequally. This represents inequality (more versus less), but
defined from below, not from above. It suggests that a society's level of
inequality is endorsed by the followers as much as by the leaders."

Obviously it's a gross oversimplification to measure national differences on
just five dimensions, but it's also a gross oversimplification to presume
anything about France merely from its embrace of "liberté, égalité,
fraternité." The United States also officially and quite ostentatiously
embraces equality, yet in the eyes of many, the United States is a leading
exporter of inequality. The "equality" we celebrate in the United States can
seem hollow or even trivial or useless from another perspective. Different
cultures have notions of equality and inequality that appear simple to them
while appearing complicated or contradictory to people from other cultures. I
took a few semesters of French in college, but I don't have a clue what
"égalité" means to them, only what it means to other Americans.

(+) I just have to worry that if I'm consistently taking orders instead of
giving them, then I must not be coming up with many good ideas!

------
ErrantX
I actually find the US way more uncomfortable. It seems to come across
slightly in your face.

All of my favourite restraints are in France (thouh not Paris) almost
exclusively for this reason. Quiet, polite, restrained.

As another poster in this thread touched on it is simply a case of local
custom. Not tipping in the US, for example, is sure to net the same response I
suspect.

------
sown
Rude people in a major international alpha-city? I never.

------
Asa-Nisse
I absolutely loath french culture. Sorry. Every time I go there I end up with
a bad taste in my mouth and a mind telling me "never again". It's like you
cant win with a french person.

However, their beaches, mountains, wine and food tells me otherwise. I'll keep
this article in mind the next time I visit (this summer).

~~~
elblanco
> It's like you cant win with a french person.

And there's your problem. Try working with them instead.

------
Timothee
I tend to agree, though it's clearly not as bad as this article makes it out
to be.

(I should precise that I'm French and have been living in the US for 5+ years)
I think it's a different culture in customer service, and every time I go back
I'm now expecting to have at least one weird-to-disastrous customer service
experience. For Christmas, it was a call-center guy at Orange who was super
condescending, refused to let me talk to his supervisor and ended up hanging
up on me. (NB: I wasn't rude myself) I can absolutely not imagine that
happening in the US.

------
sli
There are plenty of times when the customer should only very rarely be right.
When you're a designer, for example.

------
geuis
I spent a week in Tokyo at the beginning of the year. I'm glad that I read a
_lot_ before I went and picked up a few words. In hotels and restaurants,
people will bend over backwards to help you. Everything they do is based
around politeness. Everytime you walk into any kind of store you are greeted,
whether a 7-11 or a high end hotel. But things are different. Your waiter
doesn't come around to check on you until you specifically call for them. It's
considered rude to bother the customer until they signal they need something.
When at work or out socially, nearly every situation is governed by "sempai",
which is who is senior among us. I went out drinking with 2 guys I met. They
both worked as welder, but one was slightly older than the other. The younger
one made sure he was always doing what the older one wanted. It wasn't as
extreme as it sounds like I'm making it, but it was an under current the
entire night.

~~~
derefr
Did you ever specifically ask someone to "motto shuchou shite kudasai"? I've
always wondered if they enjoyed the politeness, or if it was something they'd
cast off if they knew you'd appreciate it.

