
RIM announces $518 million loss, 5,000 job cuts, delays BB10 to 2013 - dataminer
http://www.thestar.com/business/article/1218739--blackberry-maker-rim-announces-518-million-loss-5-000-job-cuts-delays-bb10-to-2013
======
hkmurakami
_"Excluding some items, the first-quarter loss was 37 cents a share, missing
the 7-cent loss predicted by analysts, according to data compiled by
Bloomberg. Sales fell 43 percent to $2.8 billion, trailing an estimate of
$3.05 billion"_ [1]

Shockingly bad numbers, for a company that was expected to produce bad
numbers. Exceeding expectations, but not in the direction you'd want :(

[1][http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-06-28/rim-reports-loss-
as...](http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-06-28/rim-reports-loss-as-it-cuts-
jobs-delays-blackberry-10-release.html)

edit: more numbers from same article:

 _"RIM said it shipped 7.8 million BlackBerrys and 260,000 PlayBook tablets in
its last fiscal quarter, which ended June 2. Analysts had projected 8.8
million smartphones and 280,000 tablets, according to a survey of 10 analysts.
A year earlier, RIM shipped 13.2 million BlackBerrys and 500,000 PlayBooks."_

~~~
josh2600
I think the big part for me was BB10 being delayed.

BB10 is QNX, which RIM acquired 2 years ago. They were ready to ship QNX when
they were bought, so the 2 year delay is just evidence of RIM's inability to
ship on time.

Sad to see what was such a giant misstep so badly and so consistently. :(

~~~
isthatso
> They were ready to ship QNX when they were bought

I've no idea where you're getting that but when they QNX was not ready to ship
anything on mobile back then. They've been building the whole ecosystem around
the core QNX system.

~~~
tmzt
I wonder if they shouldn't shift gears and become _the_ dashboard computer
before somebody else does, QNX is still developing automotive solutions and
some look a lot like the BB10 demos we've seen. Deep integration with mobile
devices (including iOS and Android), direct PIN messaging to a dashboard
computer, providing a flawless mobile broadband solution in partnership with
carriers, etc. Can RIM even keep these two mobile device product lines alive
long enough, or should they move in while Microsoft hasn't got the UI right
(voice maybe but not onscreen) and Google is just getting into it. Ironically,
Nokia would be the perfect maps partner.

------
oz
I, as well as HN user 'HorizonXP' have commented extensively on RIM, so I
suppose I need to give a statement.

I tried and failed to compose a meaningful comment, so, quite simply: I'm
switching to Android later this year. Probably a Galaxy SIII.

My current BB is my first smartphone, which I suspect is why I have such a
fondness toward it. The fact that Blackberry data plans are dirt cheap and
unlimited also didn't hurt.

But features are lacking. For example: If I create a playlist, _I cannot
change the playlist order._ So I was looking forward to BB10 to hopefully
achieve something resembling feature parity with iOS and Android. I was
checking Crackberry.com twice per day just to hear the latest on BB10. I
eagerly digested the reheated leaks of the 2 models and the new BBM interface.

But I can't wait any longer.

Digicel, the dominant carrier in Jamaica, just launched 4G yesterday. Hell,
the ad's playing on the radio right now! Prices aren't too shabby (USD17 for a
1GB plan). I can afford it.

It makes sense for me to switch, too. My many domains are all hosted on Google
Apps. I use Postbox as my email client because of how well it supports Gmail.
Might as well complete the last mile.

Goodbye, RIM. I'll always remember you.

Love, Oz

~~~
joelhaus
Interesting to see 'former' enthusiasts react to this news. This type of
negative feedback loop demonstrates how animal spirits can impact what might
otherwise succeed in a vacuum. It's also a fascinating intersection where
search algorithms and financial modeling meet.

Those able to reliably capture the impact of this negative publicity inside of
a model will be very wealthy... but I can imagine Google expanding into deeply
into investing, should they ever produce satisfactory results.

\-----

Somewhat off-topic, but this caught my eye: _USD17 for a 1GB plan [in
Jamaica]_

Verizon now charges USD50 for 1gb[0]. Have any insight as to why there is such
a significant disparity? Does Jamaica have (i) more carrier competition, (ii)
pricing regulations, (iii) lower spectrum demand relative to geographic area
or (iv) are there other factors you're aware of?

[0] <http://i.imgur.com/Q2xTv.png>

~~~
oz
Interesting, indeed. The comments on Crackberry are filled with people who
were waiting it out, but have now decided to jump ship, mostly to Android.

Regarding the pricing, I see from the image that your USD50 plan gets you 1GB
data _plus_ unlimited talk and text. The USD17 here is only for the data;
voice and text are priced separately. My USD40 plan gets me 165 minutes and
165 text messages, with a subsidised rate for anything exceeding that.

Jamaica has 2 mobile carriers, Digicel and LIME (formerly Cable & Wireless).
How these two have competed is an absolutely fascinating look at regulation,
branding and consumer behaviour .

Until 1962, Jamaica was a British colony. Hence, Cable & Wireless, a British
company had a monopoly on telecommunications. Like any good capitalist knows,
this led to _atrocious_ service. I grew up in rural Jamaica, and we applied
for a landline for _years_ before we got it. C&W just didn't care, and, as
Jamaican's are wont to do, we gave them our own name: "Careless & Worthless."
(pronounced 'kayliss' [hard k] and 'wutliss' in Jamaican patois.)

In 2000 or 2001, the then People's National Party (PNP) government, under
Technology Minister Phillip Paulwell, liberalized the telecoms sector, and
granted a cellular license to the Irish-owned Digicel. Digicel launched in
April 2001. 100 days later, they had 100,000 customers. Literally 1000
customers per day, in a country of population 2.8 million. (Take that,
SociaLocoMobi startups :))

People _flocked_ to Digicel. I mean, it was just amazing. Soon, people with
C&W phones were few and far between. Digicel introduced GSM technology (as
opposed to C&W's TDMA), per-second billing, Pay As You Go (you buy prepaid
cards at retail stores, corner shops and street vendors.) They drove home
their advantage with excellent marketing - they branded themselves as 'young'
and 'hip' as opposed to the 'old' and 'stodgy' C&W. They sponsored football.
They sponsored cricket. They sponsored track and field (They have sponsored
Usain Bolt for years). Their coup de grace was the talent competition 'Rising
Stars', - American Idol meets Jamaican music. It was, and is, a _phenomenal_
success, and has launched the careers of major artists in Jamaica, such as
Christopher Martin and Romain Virgo.

Digicel was, and still is mostly viewed as Jamaica's 'Mobile Messiah'. They
'saved' us from the eternal damnation of C&W.

Digicel was on top, and C&W was forced to respond.

C&W did this by upgrading to GSM in July 2003, and rebranding as 'bmobile'.
For weeks, there were flyers in the shape of the power symbol on your laptop
everywhere, with the cryptic message "Get ready to be switched on." No one
knew what it was, until the public was invited to an event. 'Twas a huge event
- airshow with stunts, the whole shebang. It signaled the start of an era
where C&W would spend hundreds of millions of dollars in marketing trying, but
failing, to regain market dominance. Quite simply, Jamaicans hated C&W. They
replaced about 6 CEOs in a few years.

The kicker is that after this new rebranding, C&W provided better value. Calls
were cheaper. Data (GPRS) was cheaper. But the public simply did not care. My
older sister, for example, could not be _paid_ to switch from Digicel, and
many people share that sentiment. C&W, now bmobile, was in decline. But they
would not bow out without a fight.

They rebranded as LIME (Landline, Internet, Mobile, Entertainment) in 2008,
and introduced 3G. But they still could not compete, and continued to rack up
losses.

But something was amiss, which was not widely known until late last year: When
the telecom sector had been liberalised, the regulatory body, the OUR (Office
of Utilities Regulation), had decreed that Digicel be granted favourable
interconnect fees, so that C&W could not force them out by charging them
exorbitant fees to connect to their network. However, Digicel was allowed to
charge C&W very high interconnect fees. This was only supposed to last for a
few years at most, but continued until a few weeks ago!

As a result of that disparity in interconnect fees, those with C&W phones
found it very expensive to call Digicel subscribers, providing them with even
more incentive to switch.

Late last year, the PNP was returned to power, and Phillip Paulwell reinstated
as Technology Minister. One of the things he has done recently is to set a
standard interconnect rate. LIME capitalized by slashing rates across the
board, and Jamaicans rejoiced and are finally paying attention. Digicel
responded by taking the OUR to court, arguing that procedure was breached. It
is still before the courts, but the act has cast a negative light on Digicel.
They responded a few days ago by launching the 'Sweet' plan with massively
reduced call rates, but per-minute billing and reduced free offers. So the air
is rife with the scent of competition, as both of them are gearing up to do
battle, to the benefit of Joe Consumer.

A few days ago, when they launched the 'Sweet' plan in reaction to LIME's rate
slash, they took their street team to middle of New Kingston, the business
district, and had dozens of people dancing, and handing out flyers.
Apparently, LIME got wind of it, and rounded up their own street team to make
their presence felt. I'm told that due to the some police presence, they were
not able to do so.

Very, very interesting times are head. And I'm _loving_ it.

NB. I'm not a supporter of the PNP; but the facts are the facts - they did a
better job than the Jamaica Labour Party (JLP) where telecoms are concerned.

~~~
joelhaus
Great response, thanks for all of that context.

Sounds like the playing field was evened once the interconnect fees were
standardized. It's a shame that we are so far behind in the U.S., at a very
fundamental level. Most networks here (particularly the two largest -- AT&T +
Verizon) are totally incompatible.

Anyway, thanks again for all that detail, very interesting stuff.

~~~
oz
Thanks. I really enjoyed writing it.

One thing in the US that would never fly in Jamaica is being charged for
incoming calls. C&W used to do that when they were the monopoly, but Digicel
didn't it. If any of them tried it now, there would be riots in the streets.

Most Jamaicans are on PAYG (or prepaid) plans. As a result, we usually pay
full price for phones, whereas you guys can get a high-end smartphone for $200
on a 2 year contract.

It turns out that my sister was actually at the launch of The Galaxy S3 last
night! She came back ooh-ing and ahh-ing...

------
cs702
The company appears to have the financial wherewithal to last for quite a
while as it attempts a turn-around.[1] So I expect them to continue trying
with the existing business model for at least a few more quarters before they
give up and join the Android bandwagon or sell their soul to Microsoft like
Nokia.

[1] The latest financial statements at
[http://press.rim.com/content/dam/rim/press/PDF/Financial/FY2...](http://press.rim.com/content/dam/rim/press/PDF/Financial/FY2013/Q1_FY2013_Press_Release.pdf)
show that the company ended the quarter with close to $1,467 million in cold
hard cash and $780 million in investments, and no debt (page 8). Moreover, all
of the reported loss came from _non-cash_ accounting write-offs and
accelerated amortization; the company's combined cash and investments actually
_increased_ during the quarter, from $2,111 million to $2,247 million (page 9)
-- that's right: they ended the quarter with more money than they started!

~~~
copperred
The market is pricing the company with the expectation that the cash will be
gone in the future. It sounds like the cash position may start to decrease in
the next quarter.

------
forgotAgain
So now we have two companies (Nokia and RIM) in similar circumstances (the
Innovators Dilemma). They each saw two paths forward. Each chose their own
path. Neither are succeeding.

So were they already doomed by the time they chose to act or did they
misunderstand the dilemma they faced?

It was both. After years of tech homogeneity, people were looking for a
change. Apple came along and it was young and fresh, fun and had awesome
technology to boot.

The incumbents were slow to act. When they did act they failed to recognize
that it was a branding problem as well as a technology shortfall. They are
toast.

~~~
gnaffle
I don't think Apple succeeded because people were looking for a change. They
just made a smartphone that was usable for regular people (ie iPod users).

Nokia could have done that too. Maemo was comparable to (or better than?)
Android in 2007. If they had really understood what made the iPhone a success,
they could have spent a year repositioning Maemo to be competitive with iOS,
just like Google did with Android.

Of course, they didn't since they were already heavily invested in Symbian,
and that's why they stumbled.

~~~
forgotAgain
_usuable for regular people_ \- that's awesome technology.

Maybe Nokia could have made a technically competitive smartphone in 2008 but
they didn't. Why not? They thought they were competing on technology and that
they had time. They weren't though. They were in the middle of a market
changeover and they didn't see it.

If they came out with a phone that was technically competitive I don't think
people would have bought it. They have one today and it's sales are
disappointing.

~~~
gnaffle
I agree, although think if they had one not long after the iPhone launched, a
lot of people would have bought them because of brand loyalty.

If you already had a Nokia your default choice was usually a new Nokia. And
they had a pretty strong brand at the time (and 70-80% market share?).

~~~
jordanthoms
This is true. I can remember waiting for a Nokia android device / a good
touchscreen device with an app market before I got my first android. At that
point I'd only really owned Nokia's and loved the reliability of them, but
they just took far too long to come out with anything that could compete.

------
dakrisht
How are these guys still in business? It's out of this world.

It's also out of this world how this company can't figure out left from right
- they haven't released a single product since the failure that was the "new"
Blackberry Bold 9900 - which was a miserable device that crashed 5x a day.

And now they're not releasing anything until 2013. Makes you wonder if they're
just buying time in the form of bullshit product roadmaps in the hope of an
acquisition.

It should not take this long to release a new device, a new OS or whatever the
hell they are doing over there.

It's a shame, BIS and BBM are two great services, but their OS is just such
dated trash.

~~~
grannyg00se
Not really relevant anymore, but I have a 9900 in my hands right now and I
think it's the best phone I've ever used. It has never crashed on me. Going on
one month always on now. Keyboard is legendary, touch screen is perfect,
browser is snappy.

~~~
kin
The build of their phones are too inconsistent. I've gone through three
different models with peers and some friends report really poor performance
and major manufacture defects. Your 9900 may be serving you well but I'm about
ready to slam mine against the wall. The fact that it has never crashed on you
is miraculous, and don't get me started with that abysmal battery life.

~~~
grannyg00se
To be honest, even the guy at the store where I bought it told me that they
tend to "brick themselves" and that he had to return his. I hope my luck
continues.

Definitely agree on the battery life issue. But I don't mind since I'm never
far from a USB port.

------
zmmmmm
Wow, the level of delusion is just amazing:

 _In a conference call with analysts, Heins said getting the new system right
was more important than doing it quickly. “I will not deliver a product to the
market that is not ready to meet the needs of our customers,” said Heins._

These guys are sitting in the armory of their castle, polishing their weapons,
and the barbarians have already stormed over the ramparts, smashed through the
walls and set fire to most of the village. But no, it's more important to get
those weapons "just right".

Or to look at it another way, if BB10 is in such a parlous state that after
all these delays it still cannot be shipped then there are huge, enormous
problems with the technical competency inside RIM. And if that is true then we
can assume that it will never ship in good shape because time is not actually
a solution to such problems.

~~~
zmonkeyz
..and yet if they release too early when it's not ready they have to hear "it
just seems like beta software" "it's too unpolished"

------
adrinavarro
RIM needs more coders and less executives. Their products are lacking from
basic stuff, just for example:

\- no IMAP folders means that I can't get two-way sync without getting every
single email, no way to avoid 'bypass inbox' mails, it's that or just one way

\- software, and social integration on the PlayBook is really bad and too
'alpha' (hm, can't even send a DM typing the twitter account name) to be used.

And we have unstable software, lacking of the most basic functionality (like…
editing bookmarks, storing notes, and with frequent glitches and bugs,
disappearing folders…)

You cannot get adoption with such a bad experience, and that's why I
understand that BB10 is the way to go. Their hardware is excellent, their
software is a few years (and thousands of lines of code) behind of where it
should be.

If you cannot attract developers, hire them and make your own ecosystem. In
the end, social networks and usual convenience apps (weather, netflix,
browser, twitter, facebook, presentations, sync, calendar, contacts) with a
good support is all you need to attract a decent user base.

If every time someone tries out my PlayBook they run into a stupid glitch or
crash, it's clear that they aren't going to buy one, even if it's cheap and
it's a real beauty in terms of hardware and underlying system.

And my dad isn't going to get a new BlackBerry either. They're getting more
expensive and he still can't have a decent Gmail integration without stupid
'features' like skipping inbox or two-way sync. There is no flexibility, menus
are still too complicated and messy.

It's no wonder that they're making losses. I guess I'm the only one still
sticking to BB out there without hating it or being forced to…

------
sirlancer
I think we should really take a moment to thank RIM for what they've done for
the market place. If it weren't for them, where would mobile instant messaging
be?

Think down the road to when most of us will be moving on from Google to the
next great "thing"

I know when that time comes that I will be forever thankful that I was able to
share personal documents with family members overseas using Google Drive.

We should be thanking them for being a part of the cycle that is the modern
world of technology; a stepping stone and a changing interface for information
exchange.

Life goes on. And thank god for RIM.

------
curiousfiddler
Unless they work out a miracle in 2013, RIM's best bet is to get acquired. And
actually they could be a good option for Oracle considering they plan to
explore new enterprise avenues.

~~~
taligent
Actually this is a really interesting suggestion.

Oracle definitely has the money, patience and will to go against Android and
iOS in the enterprise space. And BB does have a Java story which suits Oracle.

The question is whether Oracle needs to get into the mobile space. They could
just as easily sell apps for iOS/Android or add better mobile front ends to
their eBusiness Suite.

~~~
curiousfiddler
Was actually discussing with someone I know in Oracle - they are exploring
more mobile visibility aggressively. And I guess it wouldn't hurt if they own
a popular enterprise mobile platform.

~~~
pinaceae
"enterprise" no longer exists. that's what is killing RIM, that's why they are
trying to woo consumers.

Users rule now, and users are consumers. They don't want to carry two devices,
one for home, one for work. The home one being technically advanced.

The cost of the IT fortresses is prohibitive and it is now being understood
that IT departments with overzealous IT security policies ruined the actual
use cases of technology.

Example: Top15 big pharma co. BB as the corporate standard, fully locked down.
PIN lock activates the sec the screen goes dark. PIN is a alphanumeric
password. Camera, Browser - pretty much everything is disabled. Windows
Notebooks? VPNs, rotating passwords, dongles, e-mail mailboxes of 500mb, no
e-mail retention, etc.

IT argues that this makes them "compliant".

Then, suddenly, strangely coincidental with the rise of Apple post 2007 a big
shift starts. SaaS solutions are starting to replace on-premise stuff, Big
pharco has realized that their IT really _sucks_ in terms of its job. The
headcount, cost overhead is in no relation to the pain it causes. Everything
is _no_ , everything takes ages, when it arrives it is unusable.

And now we are at bring your own device. Whatever works. iPads everywhere. iOS
takes care of security and OS updates. No more we can't update to WinXP SP3
because we're still testing it.

Just had a meeting with another big pharco yesterday, where BB is corporate
standard. They are dropping that next month. iPhones are taking over. With far
less control.

"Enterprise" for end-users is dead.

------
goatforce5
[https://www.google.ca/finance?client=ob&q=NASDAQ:RIMM](https://www.google.ca/finance?client=ob&q=NASDAQ:RIMM)

Down 18.07% in afterhours trading as of the time of this comment.

~~~
Zenst
OUCH that's with the price they have making the company so ripe to be brought
and broken up appealing that I doubt that it wont happen now :(.

------
zeruch
I've not been surprised that they have been on a downward slope, but this just
seems to be the financial equivalent to a vertical nose dive.

Its the speed and acceleration of the decline that just seems to boggle;
between RIM and Nokia, its hard to fathom how either former juggernaut could
implode with almost Shakespearean-scale tragedy.

------
Zenst
Delaying BB10 until next year, even though it is to get it working well is
another delay too far sadly.

How many more staff can they get rid off?

Nortel part two sadly for RIM. Sad, but realy have to make some epic bad
managment mistakes for this level of fail and there making them :(.

So sad, but I hear the fat lady is warmed up already.

~~~
izend
I'm Canadian and I honestly believe this is a display of the terrible
management that exists in Canada, especially in the tech sector.

Examples: Nortel, Corel

~~~
throwaway1979
I'm Canadian too. I don't know if it is terrible management or just lack of
crazy new ideas. I remember just over a decade ago ... Nortel was doing quite
well. I remember being at a meeting when I heard Apple was taking an
investment from MSFT. I thought ... wow .. that's it for Apple. They're done
for. And look what happened.

I worked in smart phones since the early J2ME phones hit North America. I too
completely missed the iPhone. And I'm no suit. You can argue that I lack
vision (you'd probably be right) just like the execs running the big telcos.
Then again, I think the entire mobile computing establishment missed it. I
know people in academia, at Microsoft, at Motorola, at Nokia, etc ... EVERYONE
I KNOW MISSED IT! I don't know when people realized that everything had
changed. This isn't a statement about just Apple btw. Google was also a new
player in this space and look at their market share vs. the established
players (circa 2000).

Honestly ... I'm a bit dazed. I can't believe I missed it. I'm sure neither
can a lot of people and companies. I get a bit sad sometimes because it feels
like it is too late to catch up.

~~~
Samuel_Michon
_"I don't know if it is terrible management or just lack of crazy new ideas. I
remember just over a decade ago ... Nortel was doing quite well. I remember
being at a meeting when I heard Apple was taking an investment from MSFT. I
thought ... wow .. that's it for Apple. They're done for. And look what
happened."_

In the early to mid nineties, Apple spent fortunes on 'crazy new ideas'— it
nearly bankrupted them. When Steve Jobs came back, he terminated all those
projects and discontinued most of the product catalog. No more PDAs, stylus
operated netbooks, printers, scanners, digital cameras -- all gone.

So no, trying 'crazy new ideas' won't necessarily save RIM. Replacing all
major executives and the board of directors might. That's one of the first
things Steve Jobs did when he returned to Apple, and most of those execs are
still with Apple now, 15 years later.

~~~
wutbrodo
Did the iPhone not qualify as a "crazy new idea"? Certainly more so than a PDA
or a digital camera?

~~~
Samuel_Michon
Steve Jobs came back to Apple as an advisor in 1996, when the company was in
trouble. That's the period we were talking about (see "Apple was taking an
investment from MSFT").

The iPhone was released 11 years later, when Apple had already become an
insanely successful company.

------
geori
Anyone who invested in this company post-iPhone 4 and post-"co-CEO" RIM
deserved to lose their money.

~~~
rdl
I invested when they were around $11, thinking the patent, bbm, enterprise
management crossplatform, M&A, and residual sales in third world markets would
be worth something, and that the market had overreacted.

IMO there's a difference between good companies and good stocks in the public
market. A cheap price on an ok company can be a good investment; a high price
on a good or great company can be a mediocre investment. Kind of the opposite
of startups or other illiquid private investments (which largely have a binary
outcome).

I'm starting to think they'll go out at $8-12 though.

~~~
runako
>> I'm starting to think they'll go out at $8-12 though.

Why? What would justify a premium over the after-hours $7.70? Wouldn't a savvy
acquirer just wait another quarter or two to get a better price? What's the
rush?

At the rate they are destroying value, it would seem more likely that they go
out for much less than $8.

~~~
goodcanadian
Their book value is more than $19. Even the liquid assets minus all
liabilities is $6.60. Are you saying that all of their property, patents, and
future revenue (decidedly non-zero) are worth less than $1.10?

~~~
runako
I haven't researched the stock rigorously, so I don't have a good answer to
this. But given their massive losses, they will be drawing down their liquid
assets and increasing liabilities. And book value for large companies
frequently consists of intangible (i.e. made up) numbers for goodwill, IP,
etc., which may prove unrealistic.

------
josteink
BB10 is just turning into the Duke Nukem OS of our time.

It's sad that a company with so much talent can be mismanaged into something
as horrible as this, but on the other hand it's hard not to laugh when you
read about their continued failures.

We are talking about a company which released a tablet with a OS they called
complete, which couldn't check email. They are so completely out of touch with
what people want, that there is no way they can make.

Even if the do get BB10 out the door, it will be a disaster. It will be
underwhelming. It will be a monument to what bad management can do with
product delivery.

I'm with ars technica on this one: RIM is on death watch.

[http://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2012/06/now-officially-on-
our...](http://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2012/06/now-officially-on-our-death-
watch-rim/)

------
aginn
How quickly giants fall. I see an M&A in their future.

~~~
dredmorbius
I see patent troll.

Sadly, it's the last gasp of fallen tech firms.

~~~
diminish
I hope a patent chest-burster alien does not come out of rimm, mobile world
will lose years with those legal suits.

------
mitjak
A question to those at BB: if you're being laid off of leaving, where are you
planning to head? There is a growing number of start-ups in Toronto and
Montreal, and I wonder if they'd suddenly an influx of available workforce.

~~~
canadiancreed
As someone that lives a 1/2 hour or so from the Kitchener-Waterloo area I'm
thinking it'll have a hard hitting effect on the K-W market, on par with
Nortel's implosion in West Ottawa/Kanata. When I moved here I picked the
location to be able to hit as many locations as possible for potential
employment. With RIM going south, moving closer to Toronto is sounding like
the way to go, to say nothing of the rise in competition there will be for
Java/C coders

------
drawkbox
I actually thought RIM would go Windows Phone and it made more sense before
Nokia. The enterprise fit would have been nicer maybe for them. Not that I am
buying any of it, the old days of enterprise pushing consumer sales I think
has flipped with Apple. Consumer usage now influences work more maybe.

------
timkeller
There is now little chance of a comeback.

~~~
chamanbuga
Honestly, none

~~~
Retric
People said the same thing about Apple and look where they are. However, I
think without changing the top 2-3 layers of management they are doomed.

~~~
raganwald
What happened at Apple was—for all intents and purposes—a _reverse takeover_.
In theory, they bought NeXT. In practice, NeXT’s management took over managing
Apple and its OS became Apple’s OS.

I’m open to RIM becoming the next Apple. All we need is a company with
superior technology and superior management that has been hampered by lack of
a strong brand and sales strategy (not to mention certain legal agreements
barring them from competing with RIM in its core markets).

Then we have them do a reverse-takeover, booting nearly all of RIM’s
management.

Have I forgotten anything? Oh yes, then we need a hit product (like the
original Jellybean iMac) that will buy them time to create _entirely new
markets_ rather than trying to compete in a business where they have already
lost.

Put all that together, and you could have RIM being successful in automotive
displays, or televisions, or making movies, or something provided _it isn’t
telephones_.

~~~
Luyt

      > What happened at Apple was—for all intents and
      > purposes—a reverse takeover. In theory, they bought
      > NeXT. In practice, NeXT’s management took over 
      > managing Apple and its OS became Apple’s OS.
    

Something similar happened with Netscape and Collabra, and it was the
deathknell for Netscape. jwz writes:

 _We had built this really nice entry-level mail reader in Netscape 2.0, and
it was a smashing success. Our punishment for that success was that management
saw this general-purpose mail reader and said, "since this mail reader is
popular with normal people, we must now pimp it out to 'The Enterprise', call
it Groupware, and try to compete with Lotus Notes!"

To do this, they bought a company called Collabra who had tried (and, mostly,
failed) to do something similar to what we had accomplished. They bought this
company and spliced 4 layers of management in above us. Somehow, Collabra
managed to completely take control of Netscape: it was like Netscape had
gotten acquired instead of the other way around._

Source: <http://www.jwz.org/doc/groupware.html>

------
stevenwei
The biggest problem now is they are trying to play catch up, and are skating
to where the puck is at. Jelly Bean just came out, iOS 6 is shipping in the
fall. By next year they'll be even further behind.

I think there's a very real possibility that they won't manage to ship BB10 at
all.

------
JVIDEL
You know for a while it was kinda funny, but now I'm really starting to worry
about RIM.

Is like they are trying to commit company-wide suicide, it still has a big
chunk of the market, it's not "done for" RIM still has a chance, but it seems
its poised to destroy itself.

------
option_greek
Are there any examples that firing people when a company does bad improves its
chances of turn around ? It seems like a stupid move by RIM to fire 5k people
when their product is already delayed.

------
georgespencer
In the last four years, RIMM's market cap has fallen by an average of $49m per
day. AAPL has risen by $261.7m per day over the same period.

I think that about sums it up.

------
phoenixwizard
They have their unique clients !! They have their unique users. They need to
figure a way to just strengthen what they are already good at !!

------
theorique
5,000 fewer RIM jobs - this is a bad day for the people of Kitchener-Waterloo
and around the world

------
BlackNapoleon
Part of me wants to say that blogs killed RIM.

They did so much to slander a product that was for all intents and purposes
doing well at the time.

They made it cool to rag on RIM before ragging on RIM was even a "thing"

My old BB Bold was the best phone I ever owned. I'm currently using an iphone,
but that keyboard when used right and well can NEVER be beat.

~~~
mlreed328
For all of your rhetoric you are admittedly using an iPhone.

I think people who thought their BB was the best device ever, yet joined the
exodus to iPhone or Android killed RIM.

That is- you killed RIM. Not blogs.

------
raheemm
This drama can only be saved if a Steve Jobs character shows up at Waterloo.

------
mzuvella
Goodnight RIM

------
taligent
I don't understand why they are persisting with this BB10 strategy.

Blackberry's value is not in the core operating system. It is in the business
apps, BB messenger, unique keyboard, enterprise features etc. It seems like
they would be much better off adopting Android as their base and building
proprietary features on top.

It just seems like they are spending all their time just to create a product
that can barely compete with the 1st iPhone let alone the 5th.

~~~
wvenable
At this point, it's probably too late to adopt Android. It'd probably take as
long or longer to come out with an Android OS (with all their apps) as it
would to just finish BB10 now.

~~~
wisty
The point of Android OS isn't to save money, it's to win customers. I'm not
100% sure why people prefer Android or iOS to BBX, but I think it's partly
just psychological. Whatever the reason is, I think Samsung and Apple are
pretty happy with RIM and Nokia using a different (even if arguably superior)
OS which don't sell very well.

RIM has over 1B cash, has about 16,500 (soon 11,500) employees. Most of their
loss was from writedowns, so their burn rate might not be too bad. They might
have time to switch to Android. They can't afford BB10 to flop, but I'm pretty
sure it will (even if it's actually a great OS).

If they can loose some heads, and switch to Android, they might generate some
confidence which could help them get funding. An Android phone with a
competitive advantage (in some niches) over Samsung is something I'd bet on. A
phone with a new OS in 2013 is not.

~~~
pkteison
I don't think it's psychological. I think both Android and iOS have better
hardware that you can do more with. Beyond just apps - I can actually usefully
browse websites on Android or IOS; when I tried on a Blackberry a few years
ago, it was absolute torture. Bad web browser that didn't render sites well
with a stupid trackball instead of a touch screen. I loved the e-mail, but
e-mail was the only thing it did well. Maybe they have improved in the past
few years, but they're not getting another chance from me, because meanwhile
Android's web browser, driving directions, and Swype have -exceeded- my
expectations.

~~~
icefox
Disclaimer: I worked on the WebKit team at RIM. Starting in BB6 (two years
ago) Blackberry shipped with a WebKit browser which was leagues better than
the old Java browser. Maybe this is a marketing problem for RIM as in just
about every RIM thread on Hacker News someone complains about their old Java
browser not knowing that current RIM OS's ship with WebKit.

------
adventureful
After hours price pegs their market cap at a mere $3.8 billion. Their all time
high was $148.13 / share, on June 19th 2008, so almost exactly four years ago
they were worth roughly $76 billion (95% destruction of value).

That averages out to losing nearly $50 million in market value every day for
the last four years.

~~~
batgaijin
Wow those are insane figures.

I'm wondering, why didn't they try more crazy stuff? With the amount of
capital they had, I'm just so surprised that they didn't release some super
advanced crap that was impractical. Anyone know? Nothing jumped of the
wikipedia page for me.

All I remember is their usage of QNX, but they did a terrible job with growing
the community.

~~~
glhaynes
Is there any evidence that they ever had any "super advanced crap"? They
happened to hit the combo of a nice keyboard back when you needed a keyboard
and a separate server-side component that integrated with Exchange back when
you needed a separate server-side component that integrated with Exchange.

~~~
erikj54
Actually RIM pushed radio and mobile forward. Intel had to innovate on
projects just to support RIM's early phones. Not to mention their work in
networks with Telco's. They _used_ to make phones that lasted for weeks always
on....but I digress.

------
drivebyacct2
But wait! They're going to license BB10! I just want to know if it's that they
just accept that that will make them look desperate, or if they acknowledge
the company perception is so bad that any glimmer of hope is a positive thing
for them at this point?

------
gooddaysir
RIM says they're going to launch next year, when the iPhone 5 launches, but I
think it's a stalling tactic. They surely don't want BB10 going up against
Apple's 5 and still looking inadaquate.

Unless someone buys RIM, it's dead man walking, and they know it.

------
teyc
This is so interesting. We now have:

1\. Apple - who makes great hardware and great software winning 2\. Google -
who doesn't make hardware and gives away OK software winning 3\. RIM - who
makes good hardware and OK software losing 4\. MS - who doesn't make hardware
and makes OK software losing

It goes to show that business model both matters and doesn't matter.

~~~
kjhughes
Or maybe it goes to show that your good/great/ok assessments across
hardware/software categories aren't good predictors of winning/losing.

