
The Race to Become the Beyond Meat of Fish - spking
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/race-become-beyond-meat-fish-080036449.html
======
muraiki
I wonder what effects these foods have on the microbiome and health? I read an
article this morning about two studies that linked ultraprocessed foods to
cardiovascular problems and early death: [https://www.vox.com/science-and-
health/2019/6/11/18652653/di...](https://www.vox.com/science-and-
health/2019/6/11/18652653/diet-weight-loss-ultra-processed-foods-microbiome)
It seems like these foods fit in the category of "ultraprocessed",
unfortunately.

~~~
bduerst
The human body is pretty resilient for most foods. While fortifying "ultra-
processed" foods with simple sugars and hydrogenated fats have negative health
effects, people have been consuming processed proteins for a while now without
that much negativity.

Problems arise when these faux meats are themselves over-fortified with simple
sugars and trans fats, in order to mimic real meat. Then you're losing health
benefits of eating the real thing, and you should be careful.

~~~
rjf72
Does the current state of society not give you pause when you state that our
bodies are so resilient to most foods? US obesity rates have nearly tripled in
way less than a single generation, there are skyrocketing rates of mental
illness, reduced academic achievement, and even evidence of a decline in IQ in
developed nations.

I find it challenging to attribute this entirely to lifestyle changes and the
internet. In the mean time we have been increasingly introducing manufactured
substances and products into our food systems that fit the timeline extremely
well. Of course perhaps one problem is that we've introduced so many things
that it's become impossible to discern cause from effect. Because while I find
it difficult to attribute all change to lifestyle changes, that's undoubtedly
played and is playing some role.

~~~
NoPicklez
You're correct, but I feel like that's a huge question that may be partially
answered by processed foods, but not fully.

For instance, work/life pressure results in stress, which could result in
overeating which is easy to do given that not only is fast food more readily
available than ever, but now so is restaurant quality foods though Uber. By
ordering Uber at home you aren't going out, therefore you are being less
social, which by being less social may lead to mental health issues. All the
while not exercising and watching Netflix and sitting on social media looking
at the lives of others.

Very out there example, but I think it's all intertwined

~~~
rjf72
Sure, I think all of that is completely reasonable - and quite likely. The
only thing that gives me concern in addition to this is leaded fuel and
similar such stories over time. We now know longterm exposure to leaded fuel
causes all sorts of nasty things including reduced IQ and reduced impulse
control. Of course lead is a neurotoxin but neurotoxicity is all about the
amount of exposure -- fluoride, for instance, is also a neurotoxin in
sufficient quantities. The amount of lead fumes people were being exposed to
was negligible on a parts per _x_ basis. Try to put your mindset into a time
before we knew this, and when governments and substantial amounts of industry
funded research were mostly all declaring leaded fuel safe. The idea that
exposure to negligible ambient levels of fumes could, over time, lead to
lowered IQ, reduced impulse control, and other factors sounds really just
quite absurd.

In the past several decades now we've seen a huge array of companies now
rushing to introduce all sorts of engineered consumables into the marketplace.
This is not just genetic engineered food products, but also purely chemical
compounds such as aspartame (first introduced in 1981), sucralose (first
introduced in 1998), etc. And now factor in the recent discovery that our gut
biome seems to be connected to far more than we ever thought in our body. And
we have mostly no real clue whatsoever how these things are affecting people.
Safety trials tend to be short term and only concerned with overt physical
affects - a standard by which leaded fuel was also deemed harmless.

This was what stood out to me about your comment. I think there are quite a
large number of questions yet to be answered about how what we're eating in
recent decades has been affecting us. And we're only just beginning to be able
to pursue these answers at the same time that an ever greater number of
engineered products are being introduced for consumption.

~~~
NoPicklez
Totally agree, especially with such additives like aspartame, sucralose etc.

------
makerofspoons
Not mentioned in this article, but the Gardein brand vegan fish fillets and
crab cakes are excellent and already available at grocery stores.

~~~
Abishek_Muthian
Hi, how does it compare to the nutritional value?

I saw that that the 'The Impossible Burger' contains near equal nutritional
value of real meat; does the veg fish fillets and crab cakes you speak of
contain Vitamin D3 and other essential vitamins seen mostly only in sea food?

~~~
inapis
Humans mostly synthesise Vitamin D. Plus foods like eggs contain them and milk
in a lot of countries is fortified with vitamin d. Seafood is not the only
source of that essential vitamin.

~~~
Abishek_Muthian
Vitamin D3 is not synthesised properly for many leading to several bone
related issues, I'm one of them. In natural sources it is found only in animal
products especially in fish.

~~~
metta2uall
One can consider a supplement. It's not strictly "natural", but cooking animal
products instead of eating them raw isn't exactly "natural" either..

------
b_tterc_p
Beyond Rhino, Whale, and Mammoth would be nice. Beyond Human. Beyond Jeff
Bezos. I mean, while we’re doing simple nutritional approximations with plant
matter, I don’t see why we wouldn’t get more ambitious.

~~~
tiles
The copy writes itself: eat the rich.

~~~
King-Aaron
Beyond:Soylent

------
JMTQp8lwXL
[https://ourworldindata.org/meat-and-seafood-production-
consu...](https://ourworldindata.org/meat-and-seafood-production-
consumption#global-seafood-production-by-type)

Seafood consumption is far higher than meat-- good luck to these folks, it
could be highly profitable.

Update:

Worldwide meat consumption (first graph): 317,000,000 tonnes.

Worldwide seafood consumption (later down): 154,850 kilotonnes, or 154,850,000
tonnes.

Seafood is roughly half of meat. That's still a large market.

~~~
buzzdenver
That does not seem right. According to
[https://www.nationalchickencouncil.org/about-the-
industry/st...](https://www.nationalchickencouncil.org/about-the-
industry/statistics/per-capita-consumption-of-poultry-and-livestock-1965-to-
estimated-2012-in-pounds/) beef/pork/chicken consumption is much higher than
fish.

~~~
JMTQp8lwXL
Your source is based on USDA data, which I assume is per capita US
consumption. Meat and seafood consumption are quite different in other parts
of the world.

~~~
dzhiurgis
You’re not going to sell this to a fisherman in Papua New Guinea who live off
$1 a day...

~~~
JMTQp8lwXL
If it's cheaper than the price of fish (which I think is the long term aim of
Beyond Meat et. al.), you will definitely sell the poor and lower middle
class. Meats and seafood are more expensive parts of a diet.

It's better for the environment (smaller carbon footprint), it's more ethical,
and it's cheaper -- if the manufacturing of meatless and seafoodless
substitutes can achieve this at scale.

------
asaph
This is a growing space. Besides WildType[0] (mentioned in the article), there
are at least 2 other companies working on lab grown fish: Finless Foods[1] and
BlueNalu[2]. None of these companies have a product in the market yet, but
things appear to be moving fast.

[0] [https://www.thewildtype.com/](https://www.thewildtype.com/)

[1] [https://finlessfoods.com/](https://finlessfoods.com/)

[2] [https://www.bluenalu.com/](https://www.bluenalu.com/)

------
HillaryBriss
I can't wait to open a can of the Beyond Meat of the Chicken of the Sea

~~~
HeyImAlex
You can already buy vegan canned tuna at whole foods. Compared to the real
thing I'd give it 6/10.

~~~
astura
Was it the same fake tuna The Wolfe Pit reviewed?

[https://youtu.be/pQtSgL6Wwbw](https://youtu.be/pQtSgL6Wwbw)

~~~
hombre_fatal
Just google "whole foods vegan tuna" and you'll see it's a brand named Good
Catch.

Your youtube video reviews something from the dollar store.

~~~
astura
It wasn't from the dollar store, he said it costed him $8.53 for the can.

------
kmlx
knowing that the US has very low quality of food, as well as extremely low
food health, i would put any food that comes from the US as suspicious and
warranting more tests before anything else.

[https://www.fastcompany.com/3025173/the-countries-with-
the-b...](https://www.fastcompany.com/3025173/the-countries-with-the-best-and-
worst-food-systems)

[https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.psychologytoday.com/us/bl...](https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/good-
thinking/201306/how-american-food-makes-us-fat-and-sick%3famp)

------
skierbum
Odd that they made the comparison to Beyond Meat since they talked about cell
culture fish, not really comparable to Beyond Meat which uses plants which we
already know how to grow at scale. I think if they are looking for the Beyond
Meat of salmon Terramino Foods (I think they rebranded as Prime Roots) is a
much closer pick [https://www.fastcompany.com/40559474/this-salmon-burger-
tast...](https://www.fastcompany.com/40559474/this-salmon-burger-tastes-like-
the-real-thing-but-its-actually-fungi-and-algae)

------
dawhizkid
Are there any private companies actually working on commercializing lab grown
meat? Or is it still way too early for that?

I'm _much_ more bullish on lab grown meat - the company that can build that
will be $100b+ company for sure.

~~~
ndiscussion
Just curious.. how can you be bullish about lab grown meat without knowing if
any companies are involved in it?

It may be a 100b+ company, or it may be that producing lab grown meat costs
100x as much and there is no way to reduce that.

Have there been any initial figures? If so, why is no business capitalizing on
it?

This is mostly hypothetical but if you have a response I'd like to hear it.

~~~
dwaltrip
> it may be that producing lab grown meat costs 100x as much and there is no
> way to reduce that.

This may or may not be true in the short term, but it seems unlikely to me in
the long run. There are physical processes occurring inside the cow which
don't require many resources. I can't see what would stop us from _eventually_
being able to mimic the key aspects of those processes and to do so somewhat
efficiently. Of course, it may end up taking quite a long time to develop this
capability.

------
ilikehurdles
To me, seeing YuppieVCFoodStartup brand names in a restaurant is akin to the
restaurant advertising they’re selling me Lays(tm) chips as the side to my
burger. While I have no urge to eat food for its ability to imitate meat (so
I’m not the target audience anyway), I think these products belong in a
grocery or convenience store, not a dining establishment. It feels to me like
paying a premium to eat frozen store-bought dinners, and as bonus points,
they’re the vegetarian equivalent of over processed mystery meat. Can’t wait
for this hype to level off or for the trend to go the way of shilling Soylent.

Sorry to be a downer, but anything remotely touching alt-food startups on HN
is hyped with positive sentiment to the point where any criticism gets
discouraged.

~~~
dpods
What about ordering Mary’s free range chicken? Lots of restaurants advertise
that on the menu. Sounds better than a normal chicken sandwich. Or Coca Cola
braised short ribs from your favorite food truck? Sounds better than cola
braised short ribs.

Some people wouldn’t even consider a veggie burger on the menu, but an
impossible burger? Sure. It’s about _branding_.

The first time I tried impossible meat I was eating dinner with my old boss
and he’d asked if I had heard about impossible meat. I’d heard about it but
never tried it, so I ordered it and it was honestly better than I expected.

I never would have tried it if it wasn’t for word of mouth marketing because
it was on the menu. Restaurants are in the business of selling food. It’s
their job to make items on their menu sound appealing. Just like those
Michelin star restaurants including ingredients I’ve never heard of, let alone
can’t pronounce. I could never find that ingredient at my local store. Maybe I
should try it.

Based on your tone it sounds like you’ve never tried “imitation meat” as you
describe it but i can see why people are hyping it. I eat plenty of meat but
have started buying beyond meat patties at the store every now and then. It’s
magnitudes better than your run-of-the-mill black bean veggie burger.

~~~
Vinnl
> I eat plenty of meat but have started buying beyond meat patties at the
> store every now and then.

Pretty off-topic, but a question: after seeing so many mentions on HN, I was
pretty interested to give it a try after seeing Beyond Burgers appear in my
Dutch grocery store recently. One thing that struck me, though, was that they
were twice as expensive as the A brand plant-based burgers we already had, and
over three times as expensive as the cheap ones. How expensive are they in the
US? (i.e. are they just this expensive because they're from outside the EU?)

~~~
ilikehurdles
Probably not as expensive. They were pricier than other options, but not as
extreme as you're describing. Generally, I notice these brands are more
expensive than their meat counterparts and other fresh vegetarian options in
the restaurants I visit. They're not cheap. I think a lot of that has to do
with the marketing and hype around these products rather than inherent cost of
producing or shipping them - and I hope the prices will become more reasonable
in the future.

~~~
Vinnl
Thanks, I'm hoping the latter as well. Might also have to do with trouble
scaling up, related to the hype. I hear they're working on a new factory here,
so hopefully that helps.

------
bduerst
Tangential question for HN vegetarians: Would you eat lab-grown meat if it was
affordable?

~~~
astura
I've been a vegetarian my entire adult life. As a child I would describe my
diet as flexitarian.

I probably wouldn't.

I have personally categorized meat, especially fish, into "eww gross" so I
don't think I'd enjoy it and I don't really feel like I have a nutritional
need for it.

~~~
corysama
Similarly, my GF is veg not for any ethical reason, but simply because for
some reason she can't stand the taste of meat. The improvements to veg meat
have been good for her so far. But, if they get much better it will actually
be a turn-off for her. So, there's no way she's eating vat meat.

~~~
astura
For me its probably not the taste, just an aversion to the concept.

And the thought of gristle makes me want to vomit.

------
m3kw9
I eat fish because of the actual nutrition of fish is well known. The
substitute usually just mimic taste and not both which would be orders more
difficult.

------
ThomPete
Id rather see someone become the Beyond Bread/Pasta with zero carbohydrates,
that i believe would be a much bigger market.

~~~
pasta-driven
What is the problem with carbohydrates? If it is the refined grain part in
pasta and bread, then there are already solutions: whole wheat products.

Who do you thing would go for the beyond wheat products?

~~~
ClassyJacket
Eating carbohydrates spikes your blood sugar and therefore insulin response,
which has several problems: one, it makes you hungry again very quickly, and
makes your energy levels spike and dip more than if you avoid them. Enough
simple carbohydrates cause diabetes.

It is also very easy to eat a large number of calories via carbohydrate.
Essentially, carbs make you fat.

I can personally observe in myself that if I eat a chocolate bar in the
morning, I will be _more hungry_ in an hour or two than if I had eaten nothing
at all.

~~~
the_pwner224
This is very black and white and borderline incorrect. There's nothing
inherently bad about carbohydrates. Eating anything will make you more fat;
simple carbs are just easy to eat.

Unrefined carbs like in potatoes and (whole)wheat and oatmeal etc. are not
bad; those foods provide many good nutrients and do not cause the negative
carb effects you mentioned.

It's the same as fruits containing sugar (which is a carbohydrate actually I
think) but not causing the same ill effects as eating the same amount of sugar
from Sour Patch Kids (candy which is ~80% sugar by weight).

~~~
geomark
Potatoes have a pretty high glycemic index and glycemic load compared to whole
wheat and oatmeal.

~~~
chongli
But without fat it's pretty hard to eat a lot of potatoes; they're just too
bland.

That's the thing that everyone in this discussion seems to be missing: taste.
There are good reasons to believe that better-tasting food may have
physiological effects beyond just being pleasurable to eat [1]. This is not
controversial when it comes to other substances but with food it's a much
tougher battle.

[1] [https://slatestarcodex.com/2017/04/25/book-review-the-
hungry...](https://slatestarcodex.com/2017/04/25/book-review-the-hungry-
brain/)

------
m3kw9
Later on they gonna make alternative to the alternatives

------
sammorrowdrums
If you do this, please call it Beyond the Sea

------
hirundo
Here are the ingredients of a Beyond Burger from their website:

> Water, Pea Protein Isolate*, Expeller-Pressed Canola Oil, Refined Coconut
> Oil, Rice Protein, Natural Flavors, Cocoa Butter, Mung Bean Protein,
> Methylcellulose, Potato Starch, Apple Extract, Salt, Potassium Chloride,
> Vinegar, Lemon Juice Concentrate, Sunflower Lecithin, Pomegranate Fruit
> Powder, Beet Juice Extract (for color)

Here are ingredients of a regular burger:

> Beef

I avoid seed oils and starches. Otherwise the Beyond Burger ingredients don't
sound too bad. But clearly it's a highly processed food product compared to
ground beef. That will also be true of a fish version compared to fish. The
artificial versions will be relatively deficient in other nutrients like B-12,
omega 3 fats, vitamin D, heme-iron, zinc and some amino acids.

In terms of nutrition rather than ethics it looks like an inferior substitute.

~~~
danans
Beef is not a homogeneous substance. It contains many constituent substances,
just like the Beyond Burger contains ingredients, and many of the constituents
are analogous to Beyond Burger ingredients, which is why the taste is so
close.

It's also made of whatever the cow consumed, and depending on the source of
the beef, that can vary a great deal.

Also, the human body is very resilient as to the source of its nutrients, as
long as it gets those nutrients in sufficient quantity and balance.

------
kerbalspacepro
It took 100 million years for evolution to design cows and 400 million years
of evolution have been impacting fish, so it will take approximately 4x as
much investment or time to develop a "Further Than Fish" replacement

~~~
projectramo
Evolution wasted its time making fish move around, vision, reproduction, gills
and so on.

The replacement just has to taste very similar, not hurt animals, be
reasonably priced, sustainable to produce and healthy or neutral for health.

~~~
comex
Also, the meat substitutes that currently exist are all based on plants, which
also went through all those years of evolution – they’re not chemically
synthesized from the ground up. And they seem set to be supplanted in the
future by meat grown artificially from real animal cells, which will make the
whole point moot.

