
The real reason you can't hire developers.... - up_and_up
TL;DR version: When developer talent sends you an email, you fail to reply!!!<p>==========<p>Full Version:<p>To all the startups and companies whining about lack of developer talent, I call your bluff.<p>I ran a little experiment over the last 60 days. I sent emails to ~50 different companies (some well-known, others unknown) that were looking for "Sr. Developers", particularly Ruby devs, as found on the major developer job sites (stackoverflow, Dice, Indeed, 37signals etc). I mainly targeted companies that were potentially/maybe/sorta/kinda/probably/possibly able to accomodate some form of telecommuting/remoting. I also picked companies that most closely matched my skillset. In my email I introduced myself and included my resume. Here is how I am represented in the email (paraphrased from actual text, ):<p>Given: X &#62; 7 &#38; Y &#62; 4,<p>"Sr. Level Developer, with X years exp. Y years of prof exp with Ruby. Main expertise is in Ruby, API's, MySQL and a bunch of other stuff. Previously worked for 'ABC' startup ($X Millions angel backed) for two years and helped build out the entire app/platform etc. Later served as CTO for several side projects. I attended Top Tier University , ...  blah blah blah"<p>More stats:<p>Salary expectations: $115K<p>Areas of interest: API's, Analytics, SaaS, Telephony, Machine learning ....<p>Ability to relocate: Open to idea, can't right away<p>Telecommuter?: Pretty please<p>Snark level: Not nearly as high as this post ;)<p>Likeability: Very high<p>So out of ~50 companies that I tried contacting what was the result?<p>10/50 - sent me a reply email of some sort (confirmation, autoreply, whatever)<p>7/50 - tried to setup a phone screen<p>5/50 - actually completed the phone screen (with all phones screens going very well, I might add)<p>3/50 - tried to setup a technical interview<p>0/50 - actually completed a technical interview<p>0/50 - made offer!<p>From my 60 day simple experiment, I argue......<p>The top 5 reasons you are (probably) not hiring:<p>1. You don't read or dont respond to emails!!<p>How can 40/50 companies or their recruiters not even respond to an email at all? Why heavily advertise a position only to not follow through! 
LESSON: Check the email box for resumes<p>2. You allow for big time gaps in your hiring process<p>The hiring process at some of the companies that contacted me was just strange. One day they ask me "when can we setup an interview?", so I respond right away. 4-5 days later they get back saying "Ok how about next week?". LESSON: Long delays in communication make me lose confidence in the process/the seriousness of your interest etc.<p>3. Weird extra steps<p>Some companies like to send riddle/puzzles/challenges etc, which is fine with me. This might be a barrier to some people that think its absurd. What does it prove? That your team spends lunch break browsing trickyriddles.com?  LESSON: riddle/puzzles/challenges might seem cool to you but might just seem like another hoop to me.<p>4. A cultural mismatch<p>"Xbox's PS3 Nerf guns Starcraft/Rock band competitions !!!" - Nothing against any of that, but as married father of two, I have other concerns (what no ping pong table?) like "Compensation, Opportunity for Advancement, Great Benefits, Fast Growing, Opportunities to contribute/architect etc". If you think of "Xbox's PS3 Nerf guns Starcraft/Rock band competitions !!!" is an applicant deterrent, then I agree with your strategy. LESSON: not all programmers/developers fit the fold you are presenting, many of us are unique!!!<p>5. You dont hire telecommuters/remotes even if you say you do<p>This has been talked about ad nauseum...<p>Other potential reasons: Administrative snafus, HR general laziness, what HR?, the site's down, I want too much money, your company has a bad reputation, others?<p>So after 60 days I am still looking ;) but based on my simple research project, 80% of companies claiming to need developers are either nonserious or are too busy to even start the hiring process.<p>I know, this research project is flawed and anecdotal but maybe it can help you rethink/iron out any bugs in your hiring process. If you can't find talent, my guess is that you are probably failing in one or more areas above.<p>EDIT: Formatting
======
Pewpewarrows
This post pretty much reflects my observations back when I was job hunting a
year or so ago. I had a good amount of experience, was willing to relocate,
wasn't looking for a telecommuting position, and was very flexible on salary.
I advertised myself to several high-profile companies, many of which have
affiliations with YC. None of them were through recruiters, and a few were
even direct contacts with some core developers happening to advertise the
company on twitter: _cough_ Disqus _cough_.

The number of responses I received even acknowledging that they got my
personalized cover letter and resume? Zero. Nada. Zilch.

I ended up getting a job by being referred through a friend to a company
completely outside of the whole startup/valley/YC culture. The absolute worst
thing you can do is have your job search and advertisements become a black
hole.

So every company reading this comment: get your shit together.

~~~
kakuri
Similar experience here. Been watching HN's hiring posts for 6 months or so,
replied to many, received about 3 responses. I know I'm no John Carmack, but
I've had a $100K+ offer (for a telecommuting position), and have a $100K offer
(again, telecommuting) on the table. All these poor companies so desperately
trying to hire have never even bothered to investigate if I'm a good
candidate.

I'm not too bitter as my opportunities are fine, but it really makes me wonder
- are these companies insane? Do they _actually_ want to hire? Do they
_really_ think they are amazing enough that nothing less than John Carmack
himself is acceptable for them?

------
goodweeds
<sarcasm> 1998 called and they want their resume blasts back. </sarcasm>

I find work (contracts) by looking for interesting companies whose money I
would like to take, then I look them up on LinkedIN to see how connected I am
to them. Sometimes I ask my friends to connect me to them, sometimes I just
google stalk them to find the appropriate hiring manager's twitter address or
email address, then I email them, whether or not they're hiring, and whether
or not they're open to contractors. I pitch my value proposition and tell (not
ask, tell) them to meet me for coffee or lunch, my treat, and offer three
dates that work for me. In 15 years, be it a VC, a VP of a bank, an unfunded
founder, or an incredibly busy CTO at a high growth start-up, nobody has ever
turned me down for a free lunch.

Then I close them.

~~~
sabat
In a normal job market that's good common sense, but in the current tech job
market, where unemployment is somewhere around 3%, resume blasting ought to be
more than enough. The problem is that companies -- particularly larger
companies -- are still in Arrogance Mode and think that the job-seekers need
them. They don't.

~~~
goodweeds
_The problem is that companies -- particularly larger companies -- are still
in Arrogance Mode and think that the job-seekers need them. They don't_

That's a big dish of good old american entitlement.

If you were on the market during the last boom, the demand for engineers was
far greater than it was today. Because of that, for every 1 good resume that
landed in my inbox I had to wade through about 300 bullshit resumes. Most of
them were from Indian spam shops, kids in the midwest who got their MCSE and
decided they were senior systems architects, and fratboy ivy-league types who
felt the $200k that dad spent on their education meant they should be able to
ride their degree onto the next big thing.

Treat your job hunt like it's a full-time job. You can probably coast your way
into some me-too start-up, but if you want a good job at a company you're
excited about it, you have to prove your worth by selling yourself.

~~~
sabat
_That's a big dish of good old american entitlement._

Not at all. It's a reflection on the current technology job market in the Bay
Area. It doesn't last.

 _f you were on the market during the last boom, the demand for engineers was
far greater than it was today._

I was, and my recruiter friends tell me that demand (again, mainly in the Bay
Area) is about the same as it was then (late '90s). We're sitting on 3%
unemployment, so finding good people is difficult.

~~~
goodweeds
Huh? Can you cite your 3% unemployment source? Outside of the tech industry
it's pretty difficult to find temporary work, let alone full-time work. I've
heard closer to 15% for the greater bay area.

~~~
sabat
_I've heard closer to 15% for the greater bay area._

Not in technology, it's not.

------
waterlesscloud
A lot of comments here miss the point.

80% did not respond _at all_ . They did not acknowledge his contact attempt in
any way whatsoever. Not a canned response confirming contact, nothing.
Nothing.

I'm willing to bet very heavily on this representing complete incompetence at
the organizations contacted.

~~~
dkokelley
I think there's an underlying issue here. I would wager that 4/5 of job
postings are for internally filled positions, especially with larger
enterprises with heavy HR involvement.

Let's say MegaCorp Inc. wants to promote Billy, a great Jr. developer, into a
senior role for a new project. The deal is done when the manager says "Billy,
I want you to be the Sr. developer for X project." The thing is that HR gets
in the way and says "well, we have to make this position available publicly so
that we are complying with whatever fair labor and employment laws effect us."

Those 40 companies who didn't respond probably already had a Billy lined up
for the job.

~~~
up_and_up
Thats a really good point in general. The issue is none of the 50 companies
included MegaCorp or the like and based on my experience at startups I'm
guessing HR is non-existent at most of them.

------
rcavezza
I don't think this is why companies can't find good developers.

To sum up your email: Hi, You've never met me before, but I like your company.
I expect to get paid $115K to lead a team as a senior developer, but don't
want to relocate in order to be with the team.

I feel this type of email should get a response; however, I'm not surprised no
one hired you. I'm sorry none of these companies replied. If hiring is as
tough as everyone says it is, they should at least be willing to followup -
they might find a diamond in the rough that way.

80% of jobs are filled informally, especially senior positions. If you know
someone on the team, or if the team knows of your work and respects it, you
should be able to find a position faster.

~~~
loup-vaillant
> _I expect to get paid $115K to lead a team as a senior developer, but don't
> want to relocate in order to be with the team._

He targeted companies that claim to accommodate telecommuting. Not hire when
being asked looks sneaky.

~~~
city41
How often does telecommuting really jive with a senior/leadership position? If
you're just coding away then sure I can see telecommuting being very viable.
If part of your job is earning the respect of a team and being able to drive
them and steer them in a direction, then not being physically there could very
well be a huge barrier.

Not to mention only really wanting telecommuting does potentially imply less
commitment to the company and/or position. That might be a turn off for a
senior role.

~~~
Homunculiheaded
The best management team I've ever worked with is in my current telecommuting
position (entire company is distributed). Not being physically present around
each other has really not had any noticeable effect on the respect/presence
that any of the management has been able to make.

I know that my team's direct manager has huge respect from all of us (and the
upper management as well), he keeps our projects on track, gives us the tools
we need, and makes sure any obstacles in our path are quickly removed. And as
with any good team, he steps out of the way and let's us work. Thinking about
it, the biggest issue I've had with management in the past is not knowing when
to get out of the way, I think remote work makes this easier.

The strange thing I always find about the common critiques of telecommuting is
that there are many successful oss projects that are run entirely distributed
and large communities, like HN for example, that probably have more social
complexity than a similar sized physical group. Surely there are certain HNers
who have you respect even though you've probably never even had a 1-on-1 chat
with them.

------
jrockway
The reason companies can't hire good people is because good people already
have good jobs, and many of these companies suffer from "sticker shock" when
they see how much money good developers are already making.

I recently interviewed at a major online retailer and cloud computing provider
(heh). The person interviewing me said, "wow, you're the best person of the
last 50 we've interviewed". They followed up by making me a shit offer. If you
want me to move to a different state to work for you, I want a 25% raise and
an extra week of vacation. Not a salary match and two fewer weeks of vacation.
Their justification was "it wouldn't be fair if you negotiated a better offer
than other people on your team".

That's why you can't hire people.

~~~
chrisbennet
"Their justification was "it wouldn't be fair if you negotiated a better offer
than other people on your team".

Translation: "We hire for mediocrity and you would skew the curve."

~~~
jrockway
They also claim they have a "startup-like culture" which means that instead of
getting a real desk, you get a door with some dowels holding it up. Not making
this up. WTF?

~~~
achompas
Ohhh yep, Yegge has talked about this. Meanwhile, at NYU some MS students are
excited to interview with them. Hope they know what they're in for...

------
byoung2
I had a similar experience. I just left ClearChannel last month to go work at
a startup, and though I went through a recruiter to find my new job, I also
applied to a handful of job postings at YC-funded startups (through the jobs
link at the top of HN). I believe there were 5 total, and 2 of them had
puzzles that I completed correctly. I have an impressive resume, and I was
willing to relocate (I live in Los Angeles, so SF isn't too big a change). Not
one response, even to say we got your email, thanks for doing the puzzle.
Through the recruiter, I was interviewed and hired within a week, at a 37.5%
salary increase. Go figure

~~~
dman
I have stopped doing puzzles for companies because I had the same experience
everytime I solved a puzzle on a companies website. Common courtesy dictates
that if you have a problem on your site that would take more than a couple of
hours to solve then you should at least bother to reply personally when a
candidate solves the problem (I am looking at you Quora). At first I thought
it was just because my solution and resume got lost in the stack of applicants
so I contacted someone at Quora on thier direct email address. Still no
response.

~~~
Jacquass12321
I think it varies from company to company. A day or two ago there was a link
here on the main page to a company's recruiting puzzle. Being unable to resist
such coding challenges I knocked out a solution and fired off an e-mail
afterwards asking a question about their expected approach. I suspect they
were getting a lot of responses. Despite that I got an answer to my question
(even after the disclaimer that I wasn't writing for a position) the next day.

~~~
wnight
Some companies get it right. They post a fun challenge, not a rote test, and
attract skilled programmers with it. Most companies seem to just pick the most
annoying thing they've ever had to do (C with non-standard pointer use, etc),
obfuscate it, and call it a 'puzzle'.

------
compay
After many years I was back in the job market earlier this year. I ended up
writing to 6 carefully-chosen companies. I got responses back from 5 of them,
interviewed at 4, and got job offers from all of them.

The fact that you applied at 50 places is a bit of a deceptive statistic,
because first of all, there's no way you carefully crafted your initial
contact to each one.

At each of the places I contacted during my job search, my initial email was
_very_ carefully worded. I spent about 3 hours writing and revising one fairly
short email, to make sure it conveyed exactly what I wanted.

If you just send a generic form letter to a company, they're going to give you
the same consideration you have given them: very little.

Even if you did tailor the email to each company, there's no way you as a
candidate are going to appeal to more than a handful of the companies, because
they all have their own quirks and cultures. NOBODY is a viable candidate for
50 different Ruby-oriented companies.

Also, no offense but I have to concur with other comments here that your
writing may have had something to do with it. If what you sent them was worded
at all like what you've posted here, then you probably lost a lot of potential
responses because of that.

If you want to get your foot in the door at a company, the first impression
you make is everything. Sending a poorly worded email is a surefire way to
shoot yourself in the foot.

~~~
rudasn
> If you just send a generic form letter to a company, they're going to give
> you the same consideration you have given them: very little.

I think this may be true as I had a similar experience. Since March I have
contacted many companies (both for contract work and full-time) but I only
_really_ wanted to work at 3 of them.

For the first company I spent 2 weeks crafting my job application and it took
them more than a month to get back to me, and only after I directly emailed
one of their HR staff.

For the second I spent about an hour or two writing an e-mail but was quite
well thought out. I got a reply the next day and went through the whole
process in about a week.

For the third company I sent a code sample to the senior developer and my
resume to the CEO. Within two weeks I got an offer.

In all three cases I tried to make it very clear that I am choosing them, why
I choose them, and what my thoughts are about their company/market. It seems
that only in the third case, when I talked with the CEO, this approach worked.

------
patio11
People trying to hire developers through Dice/Monster are demonstrably
clueless. Get introductions direct to the decisionmaker. You won't be in a
pile of 200 resumes from people who list "Computers: Expert, especially with
MsWord" and apply to developer positions. You'll also be dealt with in more
reasonable timeframes.

Job sites are job hunting for people who enjoy unemployment.

~~~
amorphid
Recruiter here. Going directly to the source is alweays your best option, if
that's an option. I exist because the hiring manager has only so many hours in
the day to review X applications, let alone interview the applicants.

If you are lucky, I get objective criteria from a hiring manager who actually
knows what they are looking for and assess the fit of your application in an
objective way.

If it helps it bothers me that there's a need for my role and I try to
automate myself out of the picture as much as possible.

~~~
canadaduane
I'm curious, and maybe a bit skeptical. Why does it bother you that your role
is needed?

~~~
amorphid
I'm naturally frustrated by the fact that I know less about the positions I am
trying to fill than both the hiring managers and the applicants. It takes a
lot of work to learn where I can and can't add value.

~~~
compay
That sounds like exactly the kind of self-awareness and humility that will
make you stand out and be successful in your profession. Kudos to you.

------
jqueryin

        If you want to steal some of the best talent in the
        industry, open yourself up to the idea of letting them 
        telecommute or work remotely. 
    
        Offer up a 3 month introductory period to ensure there's
        a mutual fit and they actually do the work as promised. 
        
        Don't make them shitty offers because they aren't on
        site; there is fudge room depending on their cost of
        living. 
    
        If you're in the valley, get your head out of your ass.
        Talent is everywhere. We don't all need to move to the
        valley to prove anything. 
    
        We likely DO love your team and product; that's why
        we applied in the first place. Devs are a funny beast,
        most of us apply to things that interest us.
    
        Loving your team is not necessarily justification to 
        up and leave everything we've grown to know and love.
        We're not all recent college graduates with no ties to a
        community.
    
        Open yourselves up to change and boundary pushing.
        Consider opening satellite offices in different large
        cities for your remote devs to work at, together. 
    

::end rant::

~~~
bbperkspot
Except telecommuting someone you don't know is a HUGE risk. Hiring is an
expensive, activity that doesn't reward taking risks.

We have one telecommute worker and he is about 60% as effective as he was
onsite. That's somebody we had onsite for six months before he started
telecommute. YMMV, but _that's_ why companies don't like telecommuting.

It isn't that we have our heads in our asses, we just know it is a poor
substitute for having you onsite and we avoid it if we can.

~~~
jqueryin
Sounds like a poor fit to me. I really wish more companies would consider the
whole concept of satellite offices though. You could force them to work
_somewhere_ , so long as relocation isn't required.

    
    
        Checks and balances.
    

That big grey area of not being able to stand over their shoulder to check
productivity is tough. The least you can do to promote good work ethic is have
them in a room with another team member.

------
gatlin
I applied to a kind-of sinking ship in Palo Alto last year. Got through a few
interviews, answered all the questions right, and was gently let down. It was
a stab in the dark.

My friend who worked there (and, in fact, recommended me) told me the
developer doing the interviews has never actually recommended a single
candidate and is no longer allowed to do interviews.

This could still mean that I'm stupid and incompetent but it seems like they
missed out on a lot of talent because of the egotism of a single dev they had
hiring.

Also I did a fair amount of the interview on a rooftop, trying to quietly and
safely get down without a ladder. Fun times.

~~~
thoughtsimple
I recently had an interview with a company that involved 6 people interviewing
me serially. That sort of thing is grueling in the best of cases. But this one
went south with the third interviewer. He seemed to me be someone with
something like Aspergers syndrome. He talked in a monotone, fidgeted
constantly and was rocking back and forth. While I have no problem working
with anyone technically competent, this person was clearly not capable of
running an interview.

He asked a technical question to which I answered a more or less standard
response. He told me I was wrong. Being a bit stunned (it wasn't a hard
question), I asked him what he meant. He gave me a reply that was quite
incorrect.

Now, in a normal interview situation if this occurs, I see it as an
opportunity to have a conversation. I can explain my point and the interviewer
can respond. You can find out a lot about an organization with this kind of
interaction.

But in this case, the interviewer just kept saying I was wrong and never
responded to my questions or gave an explanation why his answer's were correct
except to say that they were. It was very troubling.

I didn't get the job. This might have been because of this interview directly
but it certainly was at least partially the cause since I really didn't have
much enthusiasm for the next 3 interviews. A company that would allow someone
with social interaction issues run an interview is very problematic. I can't
imagine who could have done well in that series of interviews given the
circumstances.

~~~
GFischer
Why do you think someone with Asperger's shouldn't conduct an interview?

I can see talking in a monotone and fidgeting as an annoyance, but was it
show-stopping?

The refusal to answer why your response was (in his opinion) wrong is
definitely a problem.

I'm worried about this because I've been unofficially diagnosed with
Asperger's (I believe I'm not, but I'm definitely borderline / close) and I
intend to run a company. I do fidget and miss some clues, but I'd have
answered if someone asked me why I believed an answer is wrong.

Edit: I'm sorry if I came across in such a way to merit a downvote. I was
genuinely interested in the answer. I'd also appreciate an explanation of what
sounded "wrong" in my post.

~~~
thoughtsimple
Sorry, I may not have been clear in my description. I didn't notice much of
anything when he came in. It was after the interview started and he asked this
question that he thought I answered incorrectly that the trouble started.
That's when I started noticing the somewhat odd mannerisms and the fact that I
couldn't get a technical discussion about the question started.

Like I said, I'm used to working with all types of developers. I usually get
along well with my colleagues. I have no trouble with any kinds of quirks--I
probably have some myself. The issue was that this person was not capable of
running an interview. He couldn't deal at all with a minor conflict on a
technical question. This kind of thing can lead to a company not getting good
results from the recruiting process which is what the OP is about.

~~~
GFischer
Ok, thanks for your reply :)

------
euroclydon
If you're being paid 115K, working from home, and defining architecture, the
biggest thing that sticks out to me about that is, you have a lot of control.

Are companies that post developer positions to job boards really looking for
someone to delegate a lot of control to, or do they already have that person?
How much room is there at the top? If you got that architect job, would you
turn around and hire another architect-y person?

Many of these positions are heads-down, in the office and managed. And of
course you've got to be a super coding wizard who is more concerned with nerf
battles and ping-pong than dirty lucre, jeez!

Companies that hire many intelligent, mature, well-paid peers, are rare, I
think. So you either have to go network and find someone who will give you
that position of power, and then, how will you hire? Or, start a company. Or,
become a consultant, which requires more networking than option one. Or hold
out for a job with someone like Mozilla -- they seem to treat developers like
adults.

------
fuzzythinker
Counter data:

semi-active search time span: ~4-5 weeks

where: just craigslist & python.org

what: sr. level web frontend or backend

companies: all small/startups, but none are well known in HN

emails sent: I'm quite choosy actually, only applied to ~4 positions a week,
which equates to ~20 sent.

results: ~75-80% replied,

out of those replied: ~50-60% replied within a day or two, 2 took more than a
week to get back to me, which strangely enough, followed thru with deeper
phone interviews.

no on-site interviews (although ~25% I applied are remotes) until one of those
turned out to be a recruiter _.

_ Note: I wanted to avoid recruiters since didn't have good experience with
them before. But this time it turned out pretty good, got to interview a few
companies and landed a decent gig. But since this thread is about no response
from direct emails, I did not include these data points from recruiter in my
results.

~~~
jerhewet
Interesting points. Possibly a strong correlation to where you're located vs.
the original poster?

------
robotresearcher
It's just ordinary courtesy for a company to acknowledge your application, and
then send you a "thanks, but no" letter after a human has reviewed it.

But if you want unusual arrangements like remote working, you are going to
have a hard time going through the blind CV channel. What works in these cases
is either personal contacts, even over several hops, and/or establishing an
online reputation that creates a virtual contact network. Your github
projects, blog, JS experiments, history of patches to TeX [1] will make you
stand out. Even a little contribution to an Open Source project will get you a
CV line and maybe a reference from someone with name recognition.

You are a grown up with kids, so you don't have time to waste. You can't hack
demos all day like an undergrad. But a little time spent this way might pay
dividends in career development.

The point is not to be a CV in the pile. Get noticed some other way, and don't
expect your CV to glow like Charlie's Golden Ticket. The more senior you get,
the more important this stuff is. A few years out of school and you should
forget about CVs until someone asks you for one, so they can tell their
colleagues about you.

[1] Joke.

------
shadowfiend
Specifically in response to the time gaps: it's true that time gaps are bad,
but keep in mind these are startups, which means they're juggling about twenty
thousand different things at the same time. I think in that domain in
particular, some slack may be in order as compared to a 20,000-strong
corporation with a dedicated HR department.

Re: weird extra steps: the idea isn't that they're cool. The idea is that if
you are willing to attempt it and solve it successfully, it says something
about your problem-solving skills. It's not the be-all end-all, but it seems
like a decent first-pass filter.

Re: cultural mismatch: if it's a cultural mismatch, you probably shouldn't
apply anyway. The thing about a startup is, there are five or ten of you. This
isn't just another job. You generally don't just come in at 9, work work work,
maybe take lunch with your teammates, and trip it out at 5. You don't just
attend the company Christmas party. A startup is typically very much like a
family, because everything is riding on everyone. When someone quits IBM, the
teammates write it off as a “whatever”. When someone quits at a startup, you
spend some serious time looking around to make sure there's nothing scaring
them off, because every individual counts a great deal.

In short, culture is critical, and even as a married father of two, signing up
for a startup is signing up for a culture and a tight-knit group of friends as
much as it is signing up for a job.

~~~
mason55
_Re: weird extra steps: the idea isn't that they're cool. The idea is that if
you are willing to attempt it and solve it successfully, it says something
about your problem-solving skills. It's not the be-all end-all, but it seems
like a decent first-pass filter._

The problem is that you're asking candidates to spend 1+ hour before you've
even given them a personal response. I've seen positions with well known
companies who ask you to do 4+ hours of work before they even talk to you in
person. Imagine if every company did that?

~~~
MartinCron
I fought really hard to keep my hiring process from requiring a time intensive
hoop for candidates to jump through. I felt that it would put off all but the
most desperate. Desperate isn't what I was looking for.

~~~
gaius
Indeed. I have a blog and some code on GitHub. Admittedly neither of them have
been updated in a couple of month, but they're there, and if anyone wants to
know about my abilities or style, they can go look. Solve a puzzle? Don't
waste my time.

------
jfno67
At one company I was working the career section was listing open position and
we were actually doing cost cutting layoffs. Not listing position on your
company website is seen as a bad signal to send to the public and your
investors. Sometimes, it's more a marketing statement than anything.

------
jarek
Reading some of the comments here, I think the real reason companies are
having problems hiring might be that they're unwilling to pay someone with 7/4
years of experience 25% more than a bigco will pay an undergrad straight out
of school.

------
mgkimsal
Hrm...

I tend to agree with the OPs thoughts - companies often don't respond, even
when, in general, the industry (and perhaps some of those same companies)
publicly moan about not being able to find people.

When did having 7 years of experience make someone a sr level developer? I
don't think I started using that level for myself until I had 10 years
experience. I guess to each his own. Just like everyone's a "founder" these
days, everyone else is a "sr level developer"???

What's a "CTO of a side project" look like? I understand it shows a lot of
initiative, but depending on the types of companies applied at, it wouldn't
come close to what they expect of a "sr level developer".

I guess I'm just old (sorry, senior) and grumpy this morning. :)

~~~
jrockway
Senior, these days, means something like "I can create a working computer
program without any auto-inserted boilerplate".

~~~
mgkimsal
I can't tell if that's serious, or cynical, or what.

Perhaps a different thread, but what _does_ "senior dev" mean to people these
days? What did it used to mean?

------
WilhelmJ
I want to add something from my own experience.

One particular company I was interested in had few puzzles on their website. I
once worked the whole weekend to solve them as good as I can. Spent lot of
time writing a custom cover letter, resume and attached the C++ solutions to
the puzzles.

Its been several months and I am still waiting for the damn reply!

------
synnik
If you complete phone screens on 1 out of every 10 inquiries you send, you are
doing very well in my opinion.

If those phone screens do not turn into full interviews or offers, that is a
statement on how they went, not on company responsiveness.

Frankly, I don't think your stats show a lack of response at all. I think they
are very reasonable, as some level of non-responsiveness is natural, when you
account for the fact that you gave them enough information to summarily
dismiss you from consideration if you don't match their needs or culture.

~~~
bdunlap
But even a summarily dismissive response is better than silence (click
'reply', paste in "Sorry, your cover letter doesn't indicate a good fit",
click 'send').

------
tlogan
Yap - 80% will not even reply. When I was doing "market discovery" for my
startup I sent resumes (real one - no fake things) to all these potential
competitor to see how competent they are.

I narrowed down to two competitors and amazingly these two companies did end
up leading the entire market.

In order words, the first contact with the company tells you much more about
company than any other things. So if somebody does not answer on your email
with resume you probably should assume they will not be around for long.

------
jemfinch
I'm going to say it because it seems no one else is. I apologize ahead of time
for my brutal honesty.

You need to consider the possibility that you're not as competent as you
believe yourself to be. Dunning-Kruger[0] is real, and your post doesn't
demonstrate the self-awareness the best developers seem to possess.

Your writing is sprinkled with emoticons and rife with reduplicated
punctuation, both of which (especially the exclamation points) are common
signs of immaturity. Reading this diatribe--and assuming your 50 emails were
written similarly--I am forced to accept one of two conclusions: either you're
not aware that your writing is unprofessional, or you're aware that it's
unprofessional and unconcerned. Either option does not reflect well on you. To
put it bluntly, if I received an email from you in this style, I would archive
it without response, assuming it was from someone who lacked the requisite
introspective capability I expect from the people I want to work with.

I found it particularly telling that you claim that all five of your phone
screens went "very well" but marveled that only three companies tried to set
up an onsite interview with you. Unless both the two companies that stopped at
the phone screen simultaneously filled the position immediately after your
phone screen, you really need to recognize that at least those two phone
screens did not go well. I do interviews at a large Internet company, and one
of my goals--one of the goals that I've been trained to seek--is to ensure
that the candidate, no matter how bad, walks away from the interview feeling
good about himself/herself and the company. If you're doing really poorly in
an interview, I'll toss you some easier questions than I normally give,
because I have all the information I need, and I don't want you to have a
negative experience with my company. You may have felt good about the phone
screens, but the most likely explanation for the two companies that didn't
bring you onsite is that you didn't actually do well enough to justify
additional interviews. These people _want_ to hire someone, and if you were
someone they wanted to hire, they certainly _would_ have continued to
interview you.

I think your experiment was less valid than you think it was because you're
less competent than you think you are.

EDIT: I should add that whatever the case, whether I'm right or wrong about
you, the best response to the situation you're in is to seek to improve
yourself, not to embark on a quixotic venture to change others. Read CS theory
books, create and modify open source projects, solve fun programming puzzles:
sharpen your skills and--no matter what your level of competency--your
prospects will improve.

[0] <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect>

~~~
up_and_up
So in general I totally agree with you. The issue is the communication style
conveyed in the post above is no way similar to the communication style
conveyed in to email and resume. My email was much more professional.

I think your tome is somewhat off base.

~~~
jemfinch
The demand for inconvenient truths is always lower than the demand for
reassuring lies. My tone is as polite as I could make it while making the
points that I believe needed to be made.

~~~
up_and_up
Lol. I said "tome". As in a lengthy diatribe. The "tone" of your comment
seemed fine.

~~~
zasz
I thought you'd made a typo. A "tome" is a heavy book, not a lengthy diatribe.
The book could be a lengthy diatribe, but it could also be an annotated
edition of The Odyssey. I suppose you could have called a long comment a
"tome" out of playfulness, but it wasn't the clearest choice of words.

~~~
omarchowdhury
The tone in his usage of the word tome reminds me of tl;dr, or rather, tl; did
read but will not argue your points.

Although the original post does come off as ad hominem.

~~~
frou_dh
"ad hominem" is totally going on the HN bingo card :)

~~~
waterlesscloud
Right next to "Dunning-Kruger", I hope.

Actually, it's always "Dunning-Kruger" with a link to the wikipedia article to
make it more authoritative.

------
mrchess
It took me 2.5 months to interview start to finish with a several mil backed
startup, and I had to constantly bother them to set up my interviews despite
they had a person recruiting full time. Compare this with an top company in
the valley I interviewed with and the process was streamlined and only 1
month. Both included on-site interviews.

I think the problem is every startup is making up their own hiring
formula/process, and until it is internally figured out, anyone who tries to
interview will get delayed. Product is being developed PLUS they have to
figure out their perfect hiring process... That being said, luck with timing
is also important in interviewing for a startup IMO.

------
aiurtourist
_LESSON: riddle/puzzles/challenges might seem cool to you but might just seem
like another hoop to me._

I understand this sentiment, but pre-interview homework (provided that it's
reasonable) is one of the best indicators of enthusiasm, attention to detail,
creativity, and ballpark of coding skill. Most importantly it reveals how you
will react to solving one of _our_ problems which, if hired, is what you'll be
doing most of the time.

~~~
tomjen3
The problem with that is that you then end up in the second pile when we sort
job offers (and at present there are plenty of jobs) -- and we know it so we
know that your employees are more likely to be second rate, the kind who
couldn't get a job at the non-hoop companies.

And who really want to work with second-rate programmers?

Of course if you are Google, Facebook or another company as well know (or
potentionally profitable) then you might have an alternative.

~~~
aiurtourist
_The problem with that is that you then end up in the second pile when we sort
job offers (and at present there are plenty of jobs) -- and we know it so we
know that your employees are more likely to be second rate, the kind who
couldn't get a job at the non-hoop companies._

No programming interview process is perfect, and the small homework assignment
should be accompanied by due diligence on both sides — technical interviewing
by the company, background research of the company and/or founders by the
candidate, etc. Interpreting a small, reasonable homework assignment as a sign
that the company only hires second-rate programmers is a fast jump to a very
pessimistic conclusion.

That said, one recent candidate wrote us very angrily that he was pursuing N
other companies and didn't have time to do any "silly" homework assignment. He
claimed that the very-domain-specific, open-source project he maintains should
be enough of a coding example. I felt that was fine; if he didn't want to
spent a small amount of time to complete a small request from us (and possibly
show off a little) and return the favor the time _we_, a company of <10
people, were spending on _him_, it probably wasn't a good fit anyway.

------
pg
_Ability to relocate: Open to idea, can't right away_

That's why few were interested.

~~~
tptacek
I don't buy it. His explanation is more plausible.

We're on-site only in Chicago, NYC, and SFBA, and have to confirm with every
candidate that they're willing to work in one of those locations. "Open to
relocation" is a sequence of words that gets you past that step in our hiring
process. Lots of people can't honestly promise relocation without knowing what
the offer is going to be.

No, I think it's a lot more likely that he's simply right, and startups suck
at returning email. I base that on grim personal experience as well.

It can be hard to keep up. Lots of people you don't want to say "no" to, and
instead ask a bunch of follow up questions or offer some advice to. I end up
with an email folder full of those, and a couple weeks later manage to plow
through them. Of course, the experience for the candidate is (sadly): mailed,
they went dark.

And we care _a lot_ about recruiting; it is probably the thing we care most
about (it's the only rational reason I'm on HN, for instance). Lord knows how
bad startups that haven't realized how important recruiting is are with
emails. Lots of startups still see recruiting as a hazing opportunity.

~~~
earl
I took a job at Scribd at least in part because their lead recruiter, Jack,
was the only one of six recruiters / companies to whom I spoke who could be
bothered to read my individualized cover letter before speaking to me on the
phone. I put in 2-3 hours of research per company before applying, and my
cover letters were written for the firm and position. Most people couldn't be
arsed to read 3-5 paragraphs.

------
thinkingthomas
You didn't post your full resume, but as a hiring manager I can tell you that
the telecommuting preference and the previous listed experience as CTO might
have disqualified you from a number of companies, even if they are presumably
open to distributed development and multiple levels of talent.

On the other hand, the fact you didn't receive a response at all from so many
(we typically send a note to every applicant who makes the effort to contact
us) is surprising. Many companies use a tracking system of some sort to
classify and manage recruiting workflow - most of these are utter tripe.

~~~
thematt
Why would the previous listed experience as CTO have disqualified him?

~~~
chollida1
I'm only guessing but I can see how someone would view him as being
overqualified.

Leading from that, someone who is overqualified for their current job is
probably bored and looking for a new job.

------
SeoxyS
For what it's worth, I'm involved in the hiring process at chartboost.com.
(Company tripled in employee size the past couple months!) When we get a
resume / inquiry from somebody who wants to work remotely, it's instant
rejection. Telecommuting is a long debate whose scope is outside of this
discussion, but for a lot of companies that's a tough sell. Especially at
115k.

~~~
kls
Sorry to hear that, I once read a quote that said hiring is about getting the
best person available in your market at the time you are looking for them.
There are two constraints there both of them hinged on time, the first being
the developers timing of being on the market and the second being your timing
of need for the position. Both of those conspire against you in your ability
to find the best person. When I realized this, I realized that companies can
actually take a few steps to stop those forces from acting against them.

First, they can stop hiring for positions and start hiring good people, if a
good person becomes available, hire them. Find a position for them they will
make you more money. This clear the window of their time line.

The second is the companies timing of having a need and for a company not
willing to look at a global market, that need is constrained to the best
available talent in their geographical region, this is a huge constraint to
put on oneself given the fact that by just letting a developer who can do all
of their job off-site, work from a remote location, the barrier can be
removed. I am amazed that companies still conspire against themselves in such
a manner.

~~~
droithomme
I like the points you make. Working remotely is how product development and
many other tasks that require highly skilled professionals is getting done in
2011. Working out of offices every day of the week is an archaic practice.

A bit over ten years ago I worked briefly at a company that didn't have
internet access for the employees, so people had to write down things they
needed to look up on paper and then look it up at home when they got back from
work. The company, which had been around for decades and was an engineering
shop, predictably went bankrupt because they were not able to adapt to modern
conditions. You have to be able to keep up if you are going to work in the
tech industry. This applies to companies even more so than employees.

Companies that can't handle working remotely in 2011 are exactly the same.
They are dinosaurs and are becoming completely irrelevant. It's no wonder they
can't even respond to emails, they are hopelessly confused and mired in the
past.

This whole conversation will seem absurd in the post oil future where driving
back and forth to work each day when it's completely unnecessary is seen as
madness. Face to face interactions? What sort of argument is that anyway. We
have had that for a while now through videophones. Almost everything that can
be done in an office can be done in a home office. Even 3D prototype
fabrication and hardware development is being done remotely.

When a company says they can't handle people working remotely the right
response is stunned silence, and then the observation they sure as heck better
get that fixed pronto. It's not like it's even difficult to do, it's dead
simple and doesn't even cost anything extra. There is simply no excuse for
such a level of backwardness in a tech company in this day and age. What's
next? Eschewing electricity?

People from more than 3/4 of all the countries in the world took classes at
Stanford this quarter and none of them even knew if the professor was wearing
pants because everything was remote. Laptops have been around for decades.
Video conferencing for several years, IM for decades, collaborative white
boards and editing software. Bugtracking and version control are all on the
web. What on earth is going on at these companies that they don't know about
what is going on? Even hospitals are getting xrays evaluated overseas.
Customer support calls from someone in Texas are routed to a customer service
rep working out of his kitchen in Ireland. Idle fast food employees at the
10am slump in Idaho are taking orders for the lunch crowd rush at 12 noon for
a sister restaurant in Atlanta.

Here's a prediction that is so right I'm calling it a fact. Any tech company
at the cusp of 2012 that doesn't have remote employees is on life support. If
they can't fix that, I absolutely guarantee you that company is not going to
be around 3 years from now. They just aren't. Any skeptics about this, let's
check back right here in this comment in 2015 and see who got it right. Will
there be any tech companies with no remote employees (other than sole
proprietorships with no employees) in 2015? I say no.

~~~
ulisesrmzroche
Can you name any drawbacks to working remotely?

~~~
droithomme
Yes, there are many disadvantages to remote work.

* Can't have lunch with coworkers. Lunch has always been a good time for socializing about non-work events and developing camaraderie.

* Can't go out drinking after work with coworkers, same benefits.

* It takes much more time to personally prepare one's own lunch than taking advantage of free healthy food now offered as standard benefit at campus by most reputable tech companies like Google.

* No employer provided on-campus child care.

* No employer provided Friday massages.

* When you don't feel like working, can't chit chat discretely about TV and sports with workers for several hours.

* Less mentorship capabilities for senior experienced engineers to be paired to train and guide freshmen. However, I haven't seen this in many companies so it's not going to be missed most places.

It's always been an advantage to work remotely if you are doing stuff where
you are a sole worker who is able to work on black box projects where you get
a spec or desire in and return a finished product. This works best for people
that are recognized experts and is a subset of work possibilities.

The real sticking issue has always been retaining the advantages of highly
collaborative group and team work. Being able to talk face to face, have all
hands meetings, have access to the company source control server, be able to
work on something in the same room with someone working collaboratively at the
whiteboard and in a text editor. Ten years ago this was completely impractical
as the infrastructure was just not in place.

All of that has changed rapidly in the last decade as tech and services have
ramped up and delivered in spades. Not only is work able to be done
electronically, but it is regularly being done electronically, and it works
every bit as well as face to face, often even better since you have more
control over distractions.

It's not only super advanced high tech companies taking advantage of
technologies like video conferencing either. It's not leading edge at all
anymore. Video conferencing comes built in to the ordinary inexpensive cell
phones regular people have, and people with absolutely no technical ability
are using it every day. It's an ordinary part of contemporary life. It is so
common to do now, the idea that companies aren't doing it already or are
fearful of it is quixotic and surprising that there are hold outs who are so
backwards. It's like hearing about someone from the 1950s who came out of a
stasis pod or emerged from a bomb shelter who isn't aware that cell phones and
laptops exist. The suggestion that some of these companies are claiming to be
startup high tech companies is almost completely absurd and unbelievable. You
have to wonder what sort of investors are so clueless they would invest in
management of a tech company of all things that simply doesn't know what it is
doing and seems oblivious or hostile to the realities of the modern world.

~~~
ulisesrmzroche
I think you're both right. I couldn't come up with any real deal-breakers,
either. I've been thinking of working from home a couple of days a week, but I
thought maybe I wasn't thinking it through. I'm going to raise you 2020
though.

------
mikeocool
Did you customize your email at all for each company?

As someone on the receiving end, I'm way more likely to send you a personal
response if you've sent me a personal email, regardless of whether you seem
like a good fit for the job. Even if you don't know the recipients, include a
sentence about why you're interested in working on their product or space.

If it's clear you're just blasting out your resume, and you don't seem a 100%
perfect fit, I'm probably not going to take the time to send you a personal
response. I'd like to reply to every applicant, I just don't have time.

Am I missing out on qualified candidates? Maybe. But interviewing and hiring
takes a lot of time and resources away from building product. And I've found
that applicants who have done their due diligence on our company and product
are way more likely to be solid candidates and get all the way through the
interview process, making the time spent 100% worth it.

~~~
up_and_up
Yes every email was custom and nothing canned.

------
daly
I agree. I have been on the interview trail for 10 months and do not get
responses to either emails or phone calls. I have a masters degree, loads of
experience, and a strong work ethic. I have a patent, have published cited
papers, and have 4 commercial languages I co-authored. I am a lead developer
on 3 open source projects, one of which contains about a million lines of
code. All I see are "ninja/super/god-like" developer ads. Something is broken
somewhere.

~~~
awesomesauce555
PEBCAK

------
gallerytungsten
I think part of the problem you've identified is that many companies are
constantly in "resume trawling mode" even if they have no intention of hiring
immediately.

HR people like to keep lots of resumes on file, the fresher the better, so
that when they're tasked with filling a seat immediately, they're not starting
from zero.

The fact that this practice sucks for the job-seeker is of little concern;
they've optimized their process according to their own needs.

------
nodata
Wild card: the reason is that tech companies want an excuse to hire cheap
immigrants.

~~~
garethsprice
Correct me if I'm wrong, but H1Bs are time consuming/expensive to set up and
greatly increase the risk/difficulty of hiring unless you have a process set
up and in-house legal to deal with all the paperwork.

Large corporations maybe, but not small startups.

Immigrants who already have residency and a US work history work at US market
rates. (Signed, an immigrant with residency, working at US market rates).

------
polyfractal
I'm going to call shenanagins. I've been contacting startups recently for my
job listing newsletter and have been getting excellent replies. To be fair,
I'm asking if they want to be interviewed and have their job position sent to
the email list, not asking to be hired.

But people _are_ reading incoming emails and _are_ interested in hiring. Maybe
they just didn't like your email/tone?

------
matwood
Number 1 reason is your lack of ability to relocate right now. It's hard for
companies to hire someone remotely and give them a lot of control without
knowing more about them.

I do agree with some of your points though. Anytime I hear the "we have
xboxes" I immediately translate that to we pay crap and hope the kids we hire
don't notice in between games of CoD. The other day a guy was giving me a
pitch to come work at his startup and kept talking about the xbox and the
office location. Note to companies pitching to potential employees. Idea,
equity cut, and salary in that order are way more important than having Aeron
chairs.

------
kfcm
Here's some news for you: the vast majority of companies don't respond, and it
cuts across all economic sectors and positions (tech, non-tech). Myself,
friends and colleagues have determined companies which do respond are the
(rare) exceptions.

Rack this up to such a large influx of resumes for each announced position
that responses just aren't feasible, to HR folks who can't be bothered to lift
a finger after seizing hiring control away from the managers.

To me, this is just indicative of how a company treats its employees.

------
xrd
I think the most important part of your research is that there is a myth that
you have to hire young people who like playing video games. You reap what you
sow when those are your hiring goals. Many talented senior developers are
completely turned off by that type of ad.

------
padi_n
The statistic of 80% of companies not responding is pretty stark. I'm curious
if you applied exclusively to start ups. I think the "resume black hole"
complaint is a pretty common one, no matter the size of the potential
employer. If you're applying online, to relatively larger companies, there
might be more feedback available to you than you might think.

Here's my 2 cents:

I'm part of a start-up (StartWire) created by former HR professionals, aimed
at dealing with the pain point of not hearing back from employers. We work
with the resume submission platforms used by most major companies to provide
feedback to applicants - from confirmation that your resume was received, to
notice that you've been disqualified or that the job is no longer posted. This
isn't going to make you like a potential employer who couldn't find the time
to get in touch with you personally any better, but it could give you some
valuable feedback as what is going on when you don't hear anything. Maybe
something about your resume has gotten you frequently disqualified before a
person ever sees it. Hopefully it can be a helpful idea to those who are
frustrated by the current process.

------
T_S_
_3\. Weird extra steps...riddle/puzzles/challenges might seem cool to you but
might just seem like another hoop to me._

I can't wait until this business fad is over.

------
guynamedloren
You're not trying hard enough.

www.lorenburton.com - Airbnb flew me from CHI to SF less than 24 hours after I
put the site up, with absolutely no existing connections or contacts.

~~~
dabent
I certainly agree with the idea of doing a side project. Mine wasn't a resume,
but it was something I was trying to turn into a startup. That alone got me
lots of interviews.

I went through the "Who's Hiring" thread on HN for a couple of months and
wrote custom emails to of companies at places I'd like to work and was willing
to _immediately_ relocate to. Mailing folks through the HN thread worked MUCH
better than hitting the HR slush pile. The side project I developed served as
a catalyst to get me into many interviews, even if it was just for a phone
screen. Eventually I landed a great position at my current employer.

In summary, develop something you can show people that's the direct result of
your efforts. Be willing to show them source code. Also get right through to
someone who can get things done. The Who's Hiring thread is a great way to do
that and works much better than HR submissions. Another source (and the one
that eventually worked for me) was programming conferences. I found my current
position at PyCon.

------
alinajaf
I think that if you're really keen to get a position, it's worth following up.
People are busy, you get the wrong email address, there are a dozen reasons
why your application may not have got to the person it needs to for the hiring
process to begin.

Every job I've applied to directly has had at the very least one email and one
call, potentially a follow up if they drag their heels. I've rarely failed to
get an interview (though to be fair, I've only applied to 10-20 companies at a
time, not the 50 the OP has).

I agree though that with all this 'lack of talent' the companies should be
chasing us at the merest whiff of interest. Unfortunately people don't always
act rationally in there own self interest, so we sometimes have to take the
initiative.

------
jgarmon
I expect that telecommuting and/or salary are the dealbreakers here.

These auto-resume sites apply pretty dumb filters right off the bat, and you
probably got kicked out of the responder queue the second you ask for a six-
figure pay rate and/or the option to telecommute.

------
jyothi
3\. Weird extra steps It is not really that weird. Puzzles or math problems
are just a faster and highly probable measure of one's aptitude not just for
the silly puzzle but how sharp you are even in business decisions. The mind
has to be sharp. Trust me this is as important as knowing if you did multi-
threaded cluster based algorithm blah blah.

Puzzles as a selection criteria - there will be false positives but too few
false negatives.

Recently I was hiring for an online marketing position where being sharp with
math actually matters, a lot. The candidate of 2 yr experience refused to take
a screening test on aptitude. Very well, rejected as we have no data points of
how sharp he was.

------
kamaal
Some things from your post are spot on! Especially the riddles. Seriously, you
got to tell me how many people deal with riddles in your day to day
programming jobs? Do you pick up blank sheets of paper and work on puzzles a
considerable part of the day.

Even if you were, I would personally never want to work at a place which has
this kind of a culture. I am out looking for a job where good business
problems get solved in the most practical way. Which helps both the business
and me make money.

Second kind of questions are asking the candidate arcane and rare facts that
can be known only through rote memorization. Like asking him to work on some
concept/data structure/algorithm from a CS text book taught in semester 3 on
page 345 of a text book 2000 pages big.

There is nothing great about _knowing_ an algorithm, inventing a new algorithm
is special but not knowing one. Worse case anybody can know what you know by
searching.

Asking irrelevant questions to the job, gives you a very high rate of false
negatives. You are missing out on some very good and productive people.

This is exactly what happens, you ask some irrelevant questions and consider
the guy useless. The same guy goes works at some php shop which is solving
some business problems which get him and the company good money. And here you
are searching and filtering candidate as per your requirements. Meanwhile you
see, your start up failing and the average guy there winning. Suddenly you
shout out 'Worse is better'.

You've got be brutally honest and practical in software engineering. If you
are academics its a different game.

Remember your fantasy elitism in building a dream product and plans to hire
rock stars to do it is nothing if it fails. The average guy still ends up
winning even if he has 1/10 decent the product of your dreams, if he has a
product to sell _now_.

------
giltotherescue
Your salary expectations are awful high for a telecommute position. Next time
you could consider letting them warm up to you before throwing that out. Also,
how can you have expertise in "a bunch of other stuff"? The point of expertise
is focus.

Maybe the 40/50 are reading your email. How do you know they are not deciding
up front that you're not the right fit?

~~~
kls
I don't know where this assumption is coming from, The author is a senior ROR
developer, which is very hot in the market, almost as hot as JavaScript, I
earned 220k last year, all remote, doing hot technologies. Given his ROR
experience $115k is a bargain whether remote or on-site. I am beginning to
suspect a lot of people are underselling themselves in the market given the
responses to the compensation amount.

~~~
hackinthebochs
>I earned 220k last year, all remote

Are these short or long term contracts? Or a permanent position?

~~~
kls
Long term contract, I just passed over a perm gig for $140k + benefits and
options which would be close to the same in terms of total compensation. I
mainly do very large JavaScript apps with Dojo and jQuery, I also do iPhone
and Android development. Ruby and ROR are similar in compensation to those
technologies.

~~~
droithomme
kls's numbers are pretty normal compensation for these skills. The people
saying it is numbers that are around half that are simply not in tune with
market reality. The comments that $115 is too high are almost as bizarre as
the comments that there are tech companies in 2011 incapable of dealing with
remote workers, or realizing that that is what most successful companies are
doing.

------
jroseattle
What this really reflects: how bad people are at hiring. Not at hiring poor
performers, just the execution of a hiring process.

Hiring is not easy, and doing it well requires a lot of practice. Most people
in the position of hiring for many startups are doing it for the very first
time. And they usually suck at it.

Mostly, those companies get out of it what they put into it.

------
cloudhead
I have always gotten replies from job applications, but where this hits home
for me, is the delay. I've had recruiters take _a month_ to reply, at which
point I've probably already accepted an offer from another company.

The companies I ended up strongly considering are those which replied the day
after, they are the ones _actually_ interested.

------
jayzalowitz
I applied to YC a few times ago with something to the ends of "In order to
apply, you have to rate 3 other resumes for this position" Does anyone else
think this is a good idea? I feel like there are too many people applying that
suck, and it would be better to know where you stand/get feedback from other
seekers?

------
hnwh
You are soooo right on the money on this.. I've got 3 years of Rails
experience, and had the same result when applying to several companies. I also
come from a top 3 school, and have alot of degrees..

------
bearzilla
Reading through some of the comments and have come to the conclusion that A
LOT of people have no sense of humor. I read this post and chuckled a few
times with the understanding that this was not how you actually composed your
emails. I cannot believe that someone read this seriously thinking it was
similar to what was submitted to companies. Let's hope that the "pretentious
arse" learns to take a joke on the future. Thank you for sharing your
experiment in a humorous way.

------
ig1
A lot of them probably chose not to reply because there were other candidates
that were a better match or you didn't meet their minimum criteria.

Generally at most companies you have to be significantly better than the other
candidates to be worth considering as a remote candidate.

I don't think they chose not to respond after deciding that you were a
suitable candidate.

------
up_and_up
Some take-home points/assumptions based on comments and further thoughts etc
(not saying I agree with these at all):

1\. Remote < In house. Remote developers should not ask for market rate.

2\. Putting a CTO role on your resume (even for side project) disqualifies you
from consideration for Sr. Developer positions.

3\. Positions advertised as "remote friendly" probably aren't.

------
codef0rmer
I have also faced the same problem with Yahoo India. An HR used to call me
about the interview schedule everyday but the interviewer would not be calling
on time. This happened for 2 consecutive weeks and then the HR stopped
replying my emails and calls. Totally Ridiculous!!!

------
mynameishere
Most companies are going to put it right in the bin at 115K. Not sure if you
understand that.

~~~
kaffeinecoma
I think 115K for a quality, senior engineer is not unreasonable (even for a
remote job). I received an offer for a pure-telecommute job (which I declined)
for slightly above that figure a month ago.

~~~
droithomme
115k is unreasonably low in the current market.

------
triviatise
I would be interested in seeing your resume and the actual emails you are
sending. Perhaps you should be doing some more formal A/B testing with
variations on your resume/cover letter.

This could be an interesting startup opportunity :)

------
josephmoniz
I wish i could agree. However, my experiences in getting jobs as a software
engineer have been vastly different. I've never spent longer then a week
seeking a job in the software industry. This might be some what biased because
i haven't been working in the industry all that long (just 2 years now). I'm a
self educated hacker/programmer that has been writing hobbyist code for myself
for 8 years and have never attended a day of college in my life. My average
salary for the past 2 years i've been programming has been 90k-100k and my
first job was a full time employee for a multi-million dollar corporation in
Pleasanton CA and now i work for a startup in San Francisco thats in the alexa
top 300 sites.

When i set out to get my first job as a software engineer i was currently
working as a system administrator for a conference center in Redwood City. It
was the first job i landed when i got back from my first tour of duty in Iraq
as a light infantryman. I was still young at the time, 20 years old, still not
legally able to consume alcohol yet old enough where most of my friends were
already halfway through college. Discontent with going back to college to
study computer science with a bunch of people younger then me and knowing that
my work as a systems administrator is not what i'd need to be doing on my path
to achieve happiness in life i set out to apply to companies seeking software
engineers on craigslist.

I spent maybe an entire day sending my resume out over email directly to
companies seeking software engineers. I remember being somewhat selective, i'd
say i had to have sent my resume out to less then 10 companies that entire
day. Although i don't precisely recall the amount of responses i got, i did
get a decent amount of responses and almost all of them came in the next day
(yes this was 2 years ago). This shocked the crap out of me, i had no previous
software experience on my resume, my only previous work experiences were as
follows: a warehouse clerk, light infantry and systems administrator. Never
the less, i was doing phone screens (and killing them btw) and setting up in
person interviews. The very first interview i went to lasted 2 hours and was
the first time in my life where i was ever asked to write code on a white
board (idk, maybe this is an academia thing). It was a group of engineers
interviewing me so that also spiked up the intensity a bit. However, when the
interview ended and the HR person came in, she extended me an offer right then
and there and said that this is something she's never had to do before. So i
went back to my systems administrator gig the next day, turned in my two weeks
notice and two weeks later i was officially a software engineer.

My second job seeking experience was very different and also very recent.
Having put up enough with the offshore teams crappy code and a horde of rushed
employment contractors that couldn't code their way through fizz buzz, it was
time for me to look for a new job. So instead of doing any direct applies
immediately i just put my resume up on dice.com. That same day my phone was
getting barraged with voicemails from technical recruiters. This was going on
during work too so i had to turn my phone off for the day. When i got home
that night i did do one direct apply and that was to Yelp. I responded to one
of the technical recruiters and she set me up with some options and some phone
interviews. The next day i got a call from the technical recruiter at yelp to
do a quick prescreen and to set me up with a more in depth phone screen with
an engineer so i did that. At the same time the contacts from the recruiter
were all doing the same thing, calling me and setting up phone screenings that
is. The current company i work for right now was moving slightly faster then
everyone else though. I did both phone screenings with Yelp and where i work
and they both sent me programming challenges to complete and send in. I did
them but where i work got back to me faster and set up an in person interview
first. So i went and it was a 3 hour interview this time. This time i left
without a job offer after the interview but the technical recruiter ensured me
that things were looking good. He called me back later that day and gave me an
offer over the phone. That was that.

------
ivankirigin
The single biggest reason it is hard to hire is that good people most often
aren't looking for work. They are embedded in other companies or starting
their own.

------
rickmb
Boilerplate applications that show now interest whatsoever in who we are as a
company will be go straight to /dev/null along with all the other spam. We
deliberately write our job postings so that's it's easy to check if an
applicant is actually interested in working for _us_.

People who don't have the ability to understand and communicate with the
_people_ they will be working for (clients, users) and with (us), or who
simply can't be arsed to make the effort are not what we need.

Serious applicants are usually invited within 24 hours, but we will never,
ever respond to boilerplate CV-spam.

------
pclark
What is your nationality?

In my experience startups are terrible at operationally executing hiring
processes, and developers are terrible at selling themselves.

------
Terretta
The plural of API is APIs.

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Application_programming_interfa...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Application_programming_interface#Web_APIs)

When hiring devs, I definitely look for language skill and attention to detail
in syntax. A buggy cover letter or resume suggests buggy code.

~~~
mjwalshe
mm so the Google developers who put their names to the published APIS are out
of luck then :-0

~~~
Terretta
No idea what you're talking about. The OP's description continually refers to
"API's". The apostrophe indicates singular possessive, but the OP intended it
as a plural.

    
    
        - This is one API.
        - Those are several APIs.
        - This API's REST architecture is easy to use.
        - Those APIs' REST architectures are hard to use.

------
nirvana
I think the fundamental problem is that companies want a "Sr. Software
Engineer" with >7 years of development and >4 years of development in their
particular language, who also is young enough to think that "Nerf guns" and
"xbox's" [sic] are an appealing "Benefit" and that aren't going to ask
anywhere near $115k a year. (a totally reasonable salary, by the way, but I
think you lose edge in negotiations by putting that up front. What if they
think you're worth $125k? They're now going to offer $110k and let you talk
them up to $115k.)

Basically, companies want the impossible, and they are driven by a culture
that is very out of touch with the market.

For instance, this is also why they're not so keen on telecommuting.

There are exceptions, of course. But when they can't hire according to their
plan, they're going to tell reporters "there's a shortage of good engineers!"
where "Good" means "recent college graduates with 7 years industry experience
4 years ruby experience who will work for $60k and nerf bullets."

I see posts like yours and think its a damn shame. You're missing out, and at
least some of those 50 companies are missing out... its a lose-lose situation.

~~~
bengl3rt
Also, $115k for a senior engineer? Really great "entry level" (i.e. recently
graduated but mostly self taught with lots of internships under belt) is going
for $110k... most of the "seniors" I know are running $200k plus.

~~~
Timothee
It's funny how every single time there are discussions of salary on HN, there
will be wild differences in opinion. You're saying an entry level engineer is
getting $110k while some comments later are saying $115k seems high for a
senior engineer.

I never know where the truth lies…

~~~
devs1010
It depends on location, in Arizona, 115k for senior is looked at as good, in
the Bay Area its crap

~~~
itmag
In Sweden, it would be viewed as in the realm of fantasy. I don't know anyone
who makes that much.

------
wavephorm
A lot of companies have a permenant jobs page just to have the appearance of
growth, but aren't really hiring.

~~~
droithomme
Definitely true. Candidates can often use archive.org to evaluate how long a
position has been listed. If it's more than a few months, it's most likely not
a real position. (Where real position means they are actively trying to fill
it by doing things such as replying to inquiries, phone screening, bringing
people in to interview, and extending offers.)

------
billpatrianakos
I agree and disagree.

I agree that we don't check emails. Im guilty of that myself. Very guilty. No
contest guilty. But then again I think a lot of companies are looking to hire
but end up getting recommendations from people they trust. I know I'll hire a
person that was recommended by a friend over someone who sends me a resume
using the contact form or other official means of applying. It isn't always
right but when you run a company there are so many things to juggle that we
often do without a lot of times and neglect the "jobs@" inbox even though we
could use a hand.

On the other hand I'd say that maybe you overestimate your qualifications.
It's usually the people who think they're the greatest that are the worst. I
don't know you personally but it could be the case.

So all in all, I think you're right that we may not be checking the applicant
inbox as often as we should. But I also think that just because you think you
should have been considered as competent as you claim to be it just doesn't
make it so.

------
corkill
Make a 3 minutes video of yourself on webcam talking through your resume and
past projects, or even just stuff you like to do not work related.

Many candidates don't get past the subject line of the email. It's nice to
think that someone sits there and reads every resume then makes an informed
decision, just isn't the reality though.

Remember that person has a million other things to do and probably an already
overflowing inbox.

You could use something like Tout app to work out if your email is even
getting opened and if people are clicking on your resume link.

~~~
jarek
People don't have 30 seconds to spend scanning a cover letter and resume and
you think they'll watch a 3 minute video?

