
TurboTax Uses Dark Patterns to Trick You into Paying to File Your Taxes - justinpropub
https://www.propublica.org/article/turbotax-just-tricked-you-into-paying-to-file-your-taxes
======
untog
They're not perfect, but I've had success filing with FreeTaxUSA - federal is
free, state is $15:

[https://www.freetaxusa.com/](https://www.freetaxusa.com/)

Obviously too late for people this year, and my tax situation is relatively
straightforward so I can't speak to how well it handles edge cases, but the
first year I used it I went through the process with both TurboTax and
FreeTaxUSA and got the exact same estimated refund.

The last straw with TurboTax was when I needed to get some details from a
previous year's tax return and found out that they would not let me access a
return _I 'd paid to file with them_ unless I upgraded my plan. Absolute scum.
I took the opportunity to also close my Mint account (same parent company as
TurboTax) which I barely use and has been sending all kinds of transaction
data for them to profit from.

~~~
scrooched_moose
CreditKarma is 100% free for everything. I've used them the last two years
without issue, although they dramatically improved the service this last year.
It was a little rough year 1.

~~~
briffle
I want to try CreditKarma's free filing, but since its free, I'm the product,
and i'm not sure what that means, when handing them all my tax info yet..

~~~
sinatra
This statement, "If it's free, I'm the product" is becoming less and less
relevant because, "Even if it's not free, I'm usually the product anyway"

Think Comcast, Verizon, various Android phones, various modern TVs, etc.

~~~
WhompingWindows
Okay, granted many companies do it, but you're still dodging the parent
comment's issue about this specifically. WHY is it free, WHAT are they doing?

~~~
ip26
_WHAT are they doing?_

I think his point is something like "Who knows, but you can be sure TurboTax
is doing it too"

------
1024core
The _real_ dark pattern is their ability to bribe the Congress into preventing
IRS from implementing free filing.

~~~
turc1656
Nah, you're missing the forest when looking at the trees. Go bigger. Why the
hell is the tax code so damn complicated that it requires certified experts
and special software to perform _personal_ tax filings? I can see the case for
a complex code for business taxes since there are many different industries
that have different rules. But personal returns should never, ever have such
complicated rules. And that doesn't mean I agree with business taxes being
complicated, merely that the argument is much more reasonable.

~~~
godelski
> Why the hell is the tax code so damn complicated that it requires certified
> experts and special software to perform personal tax filings?

My response is:

>Nah, you're missing the forest when looking at the trees. Go bigger.

Why are we even having to file our own taxes? The IRS already checks
everything. They have all the information that you enter into these systems
(in fact, turbo tax has frequently had my W2 before my employer gives it to
me, as well as many other documents).

So having us, or some middleman, doing it is double work. Let the IRS do it
(because they determine if there is fraud or not), they send you a copy and
you send it back either as is or with modifications.

If taxes are done this way who cares how complicated it is? (I'll hedge that
in that it is harder to check the IRS's work, but I think less people care
about this)

~~~
alehul
Stolen from Twitter [1]:

"Government: You owe us money. It’s called taxes.

Me: How much do I owe?

Gov’t: You have to figure that out.

Me: I just pay what I want?

Gov’t: Oh, no we know exactly how much you owe. But you have to guess that
number too.

Me: What if I get it wrong?

Gov’t: You go to prison"

[1]
[https://twitter.com/jordan_stratton/status/11181414550616719...](https://twitter.com/jordan_stratton/status/1118141455061671939)

~~~
streb-lo
You realize that only a portion of people get audited right?

Sure, your government could calculate everyone's taxes but I'm guessing those
taxes would need to go up...

~~~
zymhan
The IRS does in fact compare the data you send them to the data they have.
Presumably the IRS, famous for it's computer system, isn't hand-checking every
return.

------
alehul
In my experience this year, TurboTax prompted me that I could save money by
upgrading to a paid plan via taking advantage of some extra deduction. I
thought, "if it's going to save me more than I pay for it, why not?"

I clicked through and found that this deduction wouldn't actually save me any
money. I then couldn't find a way to get back to the free plan (they only
charge you after you file, so this should be possible).

After struggling for a while, I called Turbotax support, which had me download
screen-sharing software and kept telling me to press some button to cancel the
paid plan, and it wouldn't work, telling me that it wasn't possible to switch
back. He couldn't figure it out, couldn't switch it off on his end, and
eventually told me I would have to create a new Turbotax account and start
over.

Oh, and for the icing on the cake, he never stopped the screen-sharing
session, and saw me input my SSN when I recreated my account. (Yes, I'm aware
that I'm a fool for not closing it out myself, but I was really stressed, and
it would've been professional to end the screen-sharing after we ended the
call.)

~~~
ocdtrekkie
The paid plan upgrade is based on which forms you input, not necessarily which
deduction you get. So hypothetically, even if your best choice is the standard
deduction, they expect you to pay if you have some of those other tax forms.

I guess my question is, if you know the standard deduction is the right
choice, can you just not input the tax forms that you don't need for that?

~~~
res0nat0r
Everyone should just use freetaxusa.com. I've used it for years, the UI looks
almost the same as TurboTax and costs like 12$ total to file both state and
federal.

~~~
ocdtrekkie
Can I point on the inherent irony of recommending a site called "free"taxusa
that costs $12 to file?

~~~
pwinnski
In Texas, or any other state without state income tax, it's $0. The federal
part is always free.

------
iamwpj
Hey, just an FYI.

You never have to pay to file taxes. Like the forms are free on IRS.gov. You
can fill in the information and mail it in with any money you owe too. There
are help guides that step your through the process of filling out the forms as
well, like worksheets to calculate deductibles if you need it.

It's very important that you go to IRS.gov and look at your options before you
_ever_ pay someone to do your taxes. [https://www.irs.gov/forms-
instructions](https://www.irs.gov/forms-instructions)

It's good to have free software and keep forms fillable, but we as a society
NEED to know how to perform taxes and that the process DOES NOT COST MONEY.
You most likely can do it yourself.

The reason we're in the mess now is because people have been so willing to
believe that taxes are too hard and impossible for the individual. Who's
telling you that you shouldn't do taxes on your own? Look at their
motivations.

~~~
JTbane
It's a tradeoff between money/convenience, or money/time. Of course no one
NEEDS to pay the $49 for TurboTax. They do it because it is easy.

The reason Intuit has been able to make so much money is that no one wants to
waste hours poring over verbose IRS instruction publications, which are not
trivial for a layperson to fill out correctly.

~~~
bluGill
I quit doing my own by hand because one year I forgot to copy line 13b of form
123a: to line 26d of form 987d... The software does this automatically for me.
I generally think software is slower than doing everything by hand ( I use
TaxAct, I don't know how turbotax is different) because of all the stupid
waits while it asks questions that don't apply (retirement income...).

~~~
kevin_thibedeau
New Jersey used to have a PDF form with JavaScript that would copy around all
the duplicate values automatically. The only annoying thing about it was that
it only worked in Adobe Reader. This year they went to a poorly designed plain
PDF form that only let you fill in individual digits for each line item, with
tabs needed to shift each place value.

------
dangus
I want to take this opportunity to mention that the IRS Free Fillable Forms
service is completely free for anyone.

It might not be the best choice for everyone, but I found that despite all
these tax services' low cognitive load, they ask so many questions with so
many steps that the actual _time_ that it takes to file with TurboTax wasn't
actually any faster than just biting the bullet and reading some instructions.

Again, I think it's not a great choice for many people but it's the one I'll
be using moving forward.

~~~
mixmastamyk
I've looked at that section on the IRS site every other year for twenty, still
can't make heads or tails of it. I end up opening another tab and downloading
1040.

~~~
dangus
It's not much different than logging into any other tax website provider,
except that it's less slick and nice, and you have to actually fill out the
forms rather than answering questions.

This is the actual direct link to the site in case you actually haven't been
able to find what you're supposed to use:

[https://www.freefilefillableforms.com/](https://www.freefilefillableforms.com/)

~~~
mixmastamyk
That seems reasonable. However, it looks like a third-party rather than the
IRS, which doesn't inspire confidence.

------
athenot
TaxAct has one dark pattern where they slide in a question in the middle where
they basically ask your consent for marketing stuff to you. It's confusingly
worded in a way to make it sound like you'll unlock additional savings.

But the good part is you can decline that, and the rest of the time they stick
to the task at hand. Now they do have separate pricing tiers based on your
needs but I don't find that dishonest. In fact they have a quick selector to
help you identify which tier you need to get based on your situation.

~~~
sgc
The entire dark pattern is creating a fucking painful and confusing q+a that
is incredibly difficult to go back and edit, instead of just showing me a form
to fill out, with hover over info bubbles that show me the actual IRS
explanations of each field. But that would show the only reason why we are
using them is to e file, because their system is much more difficult than the
IRS', and they have been able to keep anything but the most rudimentary e
filing off the IRS site.

------
SilasX
I almost got burned by one of those myself. Until I checked the fine print at
the end, I didn’t realize there was a _separate_ $40 charge for paying for
TurboTax out of your refund (rather than with a credit card). That can’t cost
anything on their end and seems designed to target people who don’t have the
money lying around.

~~~
mruts
I mean, that sounds like a pretty fair service to me: offering short-term
credit while also streamlining the customer acquisition process.

~~~
sputknick
A few years ago my finance class had a homework assignment which was to
calculate the interest rate you were paying for this "service". It was a good
assignment, because there is no "right" answer, because it depends how you
define certain values, but all the figures came back with this "service" is
like a loan with a 40-80% interest rate.

~~~
mruts
Sure, that's a pretty high interest rate. If you have the liquidity, you
definitely should pay upfront. But it's conceivable that for some (small)
segment of the population, that loan is worth it.

Payday loans are a similar situation, it seems exploitative to many/most
people. But those people who think it's exploitative are the ones who don't
need the service in the first place. If you can avoid it, you should never
ever get a payday loan. But if it's between a payday loan and missing a rent
payment and living on the street, it's a pretty attractive and rational
proposition.

Would it be better that a certain segment of the population not have any
access to credit? Or is it better that they have access to expensive credit?
Moreover, if they want some (expensive) credit, it's pretty paternal and
condescending (and sometimes racist) to say that they aren't rational enough
actors to deserve it.

~~~
paulgb
It's not (only) that it feels explorative because of the rate; it feels
explorative because they use dark patterns to make it non-obvious that there
is a fee in the first place.

------
breademoji
Wrote this up last year describing some of these tactics employed by Intuit:

[https://uxdesign.cc/turbotax-
design-1a37356adc61](https://uxdesign.cc/turbotax-design-1a37356adc61)

~~~
athenot
Very nice writeup!

This kind of condescending flow is exactly why I stopped using TurboTax about
10 years ago. Apparently it got even worse since then.

------
joshuaheard
You can still file free if you make over $66,000 per year, it's just a more
limited edition. I have used it for years with no problems. If you are
comfortable with filling out the forms yourself and reading the accompanying
IRS form instructions, you should be fine. It's federal only.

[https://www.freefilefillableforms.com/#/fd](https://www.freefilefillableforms.com/#/fd)

Protip: some of the forms do the math for you, but some don't. Also, there are
no worksheets available. So, I use a spreadsheet to do the math and calculate
the worksheets.

------
asimpletune
Credit Karma does a good job providing free federal and state tax filing.

Disclaimer: I work there but not on tax

~~~
sinatra
If you work there, maybe you can pass this along to the right people: I tried
creating an account for filing taxes, CK told me my SSN needed to be unfrozen
(that shouldn't matter for tax filing purposes), I temporarily unfroze my SSN
and kept retrying to create my account on CK. For the next two days, it kept
telling me my SSN was frozen. Then, I gave up!

~~~
asimpletune
I’ll definitely pass that along. Thanks for taking the time to share.

------
JohnFen
TurboTax has a pretty troubling history of working against the best interest
of taxpayers, from stuff like these dark patterns to their constant lobbying
to ensure that the IRS won't offer any taxpayer services that would be of wide
benefit to people.

------
itchyjunk
I know very little about filing tax and I was helping someone equally clueless
this year. The 10+ prompts and tricks to try and get us to upgrade was fine,
but we suddenly ended up in a page that was asking permission to request free
credit score. I wanted no part of it and the person with me was frustrated
enough and wanted to just accept it. Clearing browser and re-logging was the
only way to get out of that screen and it put us in the initial page. No idea
what that was about but I figured that is the `price to pay` for dealing with
free software.

------
wyattjoh
For us Canadians out there too, SimpleTax[0] is complexity free as well! Super
simple design, easy to file. We've used it for a while.

[0]: [https://simpletax.ca/](https://simpletax.ca/)

~~~
gschier
SimpleTax is awesome!

------
ocdtrekkie
Definitely experienced this helping a friend who qualified for FFA. I ended up
contacting them on Twitter and they gave me a promo code after recognizing the
site was misleading.

The solution probably entails making it illegal for them to upsell folks below
the income bar, and require them to provide the free filing option based on
the forms entered.

~~~
braythwayt
> "The solution probably entails making it illegal for them to upsell folks
> below the income bar, and require them to provide the free filing option
> based on the forms entered."

In the current environment where they appear to have enough political
influence to block the IRS from allowing people to file their taxes online, it
seems unlikely that any constraints will be imposed on their pursuit of
profits.

~~~
ocdtrekkie
Realistically, if they can be required to provide free filing to eligible
people, a significant benefit to them over the IRS helping directly remains
intact: Most people who file their taxes for free will use the same app once
they're no longer eligible.

------
doktrin
The state to which the US tax system is an absolute hellscape becomes crystal
clear when/if you move abroad. I currently live in one of those small european
countries touted (often accurately, sometimes not) as a utopia, and sure
enough filing taxes is basically 99% automated. The more complex your income
the more work is involved - of course - but for the vast majority of users who
own 1 piece of property and derive most of their income from an employer, it's
basically ready out of the box.

The hardest part for me - by far - of filing income tax is and remains filing
my US taxes, which unsurprisingly becomes extra complicated and burdensome as
an overseas citizen.

We can only dream of the day when the bizarro hydra that forms the anti-tax-
reform lobby is somehow defeated, but that realistically feels like a not-in-
my-lifetime kind of deal.

------
rchowe
I used the Free Fillable Forms to file my taxes this year. However, it seems
that the backend for the free fillable forms is provided by Intuit. It seems
you really can't escape them unless you file on paper and mail in the forms.

------
dugluak
Yep, I fell for the 'audit threat' and paid $19. Even if I was pretty
confident that I wont get audited or even if I did there won't be any problem
as my tax return is as simple as it gets and I have nothing to hide.

------
holtalanm
I have never used TurboTax, but I have used H&R Block online filing every year
of my adult life, and haven't had any issues.

One year I was curious about my refund (thought I was paying more than I
should) and brought my return in to an actual brick & mortar H & R Block
office, and they told me that my return just about perfect, but they urged me
to increase my monthly withholdings to avoid paying taxes at tax season, which
turned out to be good advice for the next year (would have had to pay much,
much more than the previous year, my withholdings were WAY too low).

~~~
nathanaldensr
Not sure why you were downvoted. I used to use TurboTax until about a decade
ago when I switched to H&R Block. In my opinion H&R Block's UX is superior to
TurboTax's and I didn't run into nearly as many dark patterns as I used to.
Granted, TurboTax's website could've (and apparently did) change a lot in the
time being.

It's always best to try and get a $0 refund with $0 owed. Big refunds may
_seem_ cool but you are really just making an interest-free loan to the
government.

------
4restm
I used Credit karma it was pretty painless for a 1040. e-filed both state and
federal and didn't cost a dime. Albeit I bet they hope to get revenue from
credit card recommendations.

~~~
dlandis
They don't support all states unfortunately.

------
maerF0x0
I know there's slight irony in using google for this. But if you want to add
an annual reminder to use freetaxusa.com

[https://calendar.google.com/event?action=TEMPLATE&tmeid=cWEx...](https://calendar.google.com/event?action=TEMPLATE&tmeid=cWExcjdycjQ1Ymk2djQ3NjA3dGozaTlpYWtfMjAyMDAzMTUgbWlrZWdyYWYwMDBAbQ&tmsrc=mikegraf000%40gmail.com&scp=ALL)

------
argd678
I signed up for Inuit’s Self Employed Quicken that comes with TurboTax just to
handle quarterly estimates, and it turns out they don’t support states. They
told me there’s so many of them.

Not that I appreciate government websites, since the quality is pretty shoddy,
but when a company has no incentive to handle any smaller markets how is this
a good system?

------
failrate
Regardless of whether Intuit is willfully or accidentally using dark patterns
to get paying customers, their incentives completely explain how they ended up
with such a complete garbage endpoint.

Of course, that is being very generous, because they are also directly
influencing the policy makers that establish the incentive structures for
Intuit.

~~~
thatoneuser
You think they accidentally tripped and fell into their website design?

~~~
failrate
No, it is likely intentionally bad. Angel's advocate.

------
bscphil
The real dirty secret of tax software is that even after all they've done to
try to make filing your taxes as difficult as possible, I _still_ find just
using the IRS's "FreeFileFillableForms" software to fill out and submit my own
1040 far easier than any software I've ever used.

In particular, every piece of tax software I've used has had trouble with
figuring out what I owe on scholarships and stipends, and letting me enter it
in the software. After four hours fighting H&R Block's "free" software one
time, I swore I would never do it again and just do my own taxes now. Far
easier, and faster.

Plus since I'm a California resident filing state taxes is as easy as reading
numbers off the 1040 to put into the FTB website.

------
low_key
It's bad even when it stays free. Massachusetts has a tax site (which seems to
be created and run by Intuit) which you can use to file for free. It, however,
has been built purposefully to make it much, much more difficult to use than
the paid version (that they push hard when you file your federal taxes with
TurboTax).

The free version does very little error checking prior to submission. It won't
even check for things like empty fields that are required for everyone (e.g.
the field for your birthday on the state health care form).

The state paid for the free version with tax money and it lacks fundamental
usability.

    
    
      * Doesn't perform basic validation
      * Doesn't calculate fields that can be automatically calculated (though there is a button you can press which will fill some of them)
      * Takes 24-48 hours for "processing" after submission before you are notified of acceptance.  In actuality, this tended to be 4-15 hours, but still... it's just doing basic validation.  I got rejections for empty fields and miscalculated fields (ones that I shouldn't even have to enter at all.)
      * Reports errors in a obscure manner, which makes it a chore to determine what is wrong (violates "Business Rule F1-1025", etc.)
      * Amounts to an electronic version of the paper form, where it only really does exactly what you put on it... add incorrectly: won't be detected, skip a line: no problem
      * I could go on, but you get the idea
    

If you use the paid product that is available from the same company (Intuit),
it will handle all of the above automatically. So really we have is a company
that has made a crippled version of software they are already selling. They
double-dip with a lot of people this way and they don't compromise sales on
the paid product. If you wait until the last day to file using the free site,
you are unlikely to get it accepted in time since you won't have a second
chance for submission.

The product built for the state could just be a really poorly written and
managed contract, but knowing the way Intuit behaves generally, I doubt that
is all that's going on.

------
b_tterc_p
I used turbo tax and had to file multiple state returns. They showed a few
blatant pages saying I could maybe get higher deductions with an upgraded
version, although I suppose I knew enough to know that wouldn’t be the case.
It wasn’t hard to file everything on the free tier. They won’t let me get a
copy of the return without paying anymore which is dickish, but they did say
that would happen pretty clearly so it’s just a matter of downloading a copy
while it’s available. You can upload that pdf copy next year so that’s fairly
convenient.

The dark patterns are bad... but I really have no reason to look elsewhere?

Well except passing bank login credentials. That was uncomfortable, but hey,
just change them immediately after as it’s a one time service.

~~~
untog
> I really have no reason to look elsewhere?

TurboTax actively lobbies the government to make filing taxes difficult. So
one reason to look elsewhere is simply to avoid giving money to a company that
behaves that way.

~~~
b_tterc_p
If you reread my post, I haven’t given them any money. Their free tier is
fine.

------
aeturnum
I encountered this with H&R block when I had a particularly complex tax
situation a few years back (had worked as a contractor for several corporate
entities and also had the tail end of full time work plus investment income).
H&R block quoted me 3-4 rates, insisting I pay them more money at each step to
finish the process.

I realize it's hard because the number of complications that _can_ come up in
filing taxes is difficult to enumerate and customers may not know their exact
status.... Even so, I'd say the current setup that these companies use is very
scammy and unethical.

~~~
JohnFen
If your taxes are complex enough to warrant having a tax preparer handle them
for you, I recommend avoiding H&R Block. Instead, ask your colleagues,
friends, and family for recommendations for an independent tax preparer rather
than a chain.

~~~
User23
Just so you know, that independent tax accountant probably uses the pro
version of TurboTax.

~~~
JohnFen
Not all. Mine certainly doesn't.

------
spartas
Most of what you’re paying for as a TurboTax customer is not the benefit of
the software. You’re paying for the company to lobby the government to make
filing your taxes more expensive.

Intuit has the perfect scam.

------
mrhappyunhappy
When I was young my mom would go into H&R Block to do her taxes. She was a
single parent raising 2 kids on minimum wage income. She wasn’t tax savvy at
all and English was a 2nd language. I recall her paying $89 at the time. I
always found it odd that someone as poor as her had to pay money to file
taxes. I was too young to say anything at the time. So much for free tax
preparation. I wonder how many millions of Americans and for how many decades
have been ripped off by these scumbags.

------
United857
Another example: when you're done filing, TurboTax offers you the option to
pay your taxes via credit card -- e.g. if you want points/miles -- for a fee
of 2.49% (or more, haven't checked recently) The verbiage seems like it's the
only way to pay via credit card if you filed via TurboTax.

However it's not true. You can file via TurboTax without paying. Then directly
go to the 3-4 IRS authorized payment providers who will let you pay via card
for less.

------
ashelmire
It is way easier and faster to file your taxes using paper forms. And free!
Maybe your hand isn't held as much, but for a group of people that know how to
use ctrl-f, it should be pretty easy to get it done.

Now, this is certainly unfortunate. I'd prefer to submit my taxes
electronically via simple forms on the IRS website instantly. But with the
lobbying, this is what we're stuck with.

------
yubiox
I guess I will switch to freetaxusa next year. I've used turbotax for 25 years
(I worked for Chipsoft, the previous owner before Intuit, in 1994). I found
receipts going back to 2007: $99.98 $96.98 $61.98 $71.98 $86.98 $86.98 $66.98
$66.90 $66.90 $39.95 $19.95 $84.90 __* They must have tricked me into clicking
something for a bogus $50 deduction maximizer. $44.95

------
turc1656
I agree with the base assessment the article poses which is that dark patterns
are used to get you to pay. But the underlying implication is clear from the
tone and wording in the article - that this is a bad or dishonest thing.

First off, Intuit is under no legal obligation (to my knowledge anyway) to
provide any service for free. They have promised to do so, but I don't think
anything related to this promise is legally binding.

Second, they're in it to make money so clearly all advertising is going to be
geared to the paid products.

Lastly, the idea that typing a reasonable search into Google and having the
page with the actual result be the 5th link which you then click into and have
to read the requirement of getting something for free is somehow shady seems a
bit dramatic. Not to mention that when I type that same search string into
Google now it's the first link after the featured snippet (which is also a
link to the IRS, but a different page). I don't think that's in any way
unreasonable or undesirable. That's about as close to idiot-proof as you can
get in my opinion. And we're talking about something that's free here so
there's pretty much no incentive to assist it. And in this case, as per the
article, there's active incentive to hide it and yet it's still really easy to
find.

~~~
CreRecombinase
I could see the logic of the argument "these aren't dark patterns", or (to a
lesser extent) "these are dark patterns(and therefore dishonest), but
dishonesty isn't bad". I'm having trouble working through your argument "these
are dark patterns, but they aren't dishonest". Might a fair restatement of
your argument be something like: "Reasonably informed people should know that
Intuit is a profit-seeking entity, and should therefore expect Intuit to
pursue all legal means to increase profit"?

~~~
turc1656
That restatement is pretty accurate and I would agree with it.

And I wasn't saying dishonesty isn't bad. I was saying the implication the
article makes that they are dishonest is something I disagree with. So _"
these are dark patterns, but they aren't dishonest"_ is indeed what I'm saying
- you are correct in that. I generally don't view dark patterns as dishonest.
I think that's where you really took issue. I find them more of an annoyance
to keep an eye out for and circumvent. And I believe nearly all dark patterns
can be spotted and avoided simply by paying attention - i.e. which button is
actually confirm and which one is cancel, doing a ctrl-f to find the word
"unsubscribe" so you can easily find it, actually reading the words on
buttons/links rather than using color as a content guide, etc.

EDIT - grammatical error.

~~~
jakelazaroff
Aren't your examples an admission that dark patterns are dishonest, though?
It's not like these companies are e.g. randomly coloring their buttons and
just so happened to pick a misleading one. They're intentionally choosing
colors that you associate with the _opposite_ of what you want to do. The
entire purpose is to trick you into performing an action you don't want to
perform.

~~~
turc1656
That's a fair point and I think it comes down to the word usage - i.e.
dishonest vs misleading. I would agree that they are either misleading or
intentionally obfuscatory. I would not, however, say that they are dishonest
because to me dishonesty means something more like an outright lie or
intentional untruth. The fact that a button says "no" but is colored green is
indeed intending to trick you, but it does in fact mean "no" when you click it
and the appropriate action is then taken by their site/system. Similarly, the
unsubscribe link might be hard to find and not colored as a link, but it's
there and it works.

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eyeareque
Regular reminder that intuit and H&R Block lobby to keep the government from
simplifying tax filings to protect their business.

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liface
I've used [https://www.freetax.com](https://www.freetax.com) for the past
three years and paid nothing. I have a complicated return as well - 1099
income, rental property, capital gains, and I receive distributions from being
part-owner of a company.

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ourmandave
Lobbying congress to pass laws so the IRS can't offer free filing is a very
dark pattern indeed.

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mrhappyunhappy
My tax situation was simple enough but I’ve always used a service. This year I
used a few services but didn’t file, them printed out the infilled returns and
was shocked at how few documents I would have to fill out if I did it on my
own.

I ended up using Tax slayer and filed for free.

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OrgNet
H&R Block try to get you to pay at every other page while you are filling your
return... But I still went with them because the last 2 years I filled the
forms online at a couple different companies and H&R Block was getting me more
back.

~~~
wycy
Your taxes should come out the same no matter where you fill them out. If you
get different numbers between services, you're missing something on one of
them.

~~~
OrgNet
I know that but I have very simple taxes and was too lazy to lookup the
difference... it just appears that H&R Block's defaults are better.

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punnerud
Can also recommend this paper for more information on how ‘Dark patterns’
work:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17406186](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17406186)

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behringer
I switched to hr block when I saw what turbotax wanted to charge. I saved 70
bucks by switching and I got to verify my taxes were figured properly!

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mrhappyunhappy
Let’s not forget this is the same company that robbed tech workers in secret
do not hire pacts that included eBay, intel, apple and google.

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gmoore
One of the many examples of why we need GOOD government...

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justaaron
news flash: the entire tax filing and tax payment industry, to say nothing of
tax code itself, uses dark patterns to this effect.

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Geeek
That's why I don't feel bad pirating their software for the past 5 years. They
are scum and are not playing fair.

