
Coin washer keeps Westin St. Francis' change shiny (2010) - erehweb
http://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/Coin-washer-keeps-Westin-St-Francis-change-shiny-2518445.php
======
simonw
I visited this hotel last year and asked around after the cleaned coins. The
first few staff members I asked had no idea what I was talking about - but
they found me a more tenured member of staff and he told me that they don't do
this any more. Which is sad, because I wanted some shiny pennies!

~~~
Mountain_Skies
He probably retired and that was the end of it. A law firm near where I worked
had an elderly lady who worked as an elevator operator up until a couple of
years ago. Once she retired, the elevator was set to modern operation. They
could have switched over long ago but kept her as the elevator operator,
likely because she had been there so long and in the big scheme of things it
didn't cost much. Might have been the same with the Westin St. Francis who
long ago no longer really needed a coin cleaner but he was part of their
connection to their past and didn't cost very much to keep around. Once he was
gone though, there was little reason to get a replacement.

------
reljac
Season 7 of Dirty Jobs on the Discovery Channel showed this in action (I still
enjoy reruns of Dirty Jobs)

[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Dirty_Jobs_episodes#...](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Dirty_Jobs_episodes#Season_7_\(2011%E2%80%9312\))

~~~
russellbeattie
Here's some video - not sure if it's that episode or something different.

[https://youtu.be/9IqHCVRbidA](https://youtu.be/9IqHCVRbidA)

~~~
reljac
That video isn't the Dirty Jobs video but it does show the same room and
process (just without all of the Dirty Jobs humorous commentary)

------
gorkish
He might be one of the only professional money-washers left at a private
business, but some of the people who rank very highly on the currency tracking
site www.wheresgeorge.com are known to wash, dry, and iron hundreds to
thousands of paper banknotes every day. Wattsburg Gary, one of the sites top
ranked users attributes his high "hit rate" to this practice which is about as
straightforward as it sounds. He runs the money through a regular washer and
dryer, then irons it, puts his wheresgeorge stamp on it, then sends it on its
way.

~~~
dan-robertson
Sounds like money laundering but I guess it’s legal in his case.

~~~
kevin_thibedeau
Defacing US currency isn't legal.

~~~
LyndsySimon
Modification isn't "defacement", though.

~~~
brewdad
Modification that doesn't alter the denomination or attempt to decieve is
legal. A crucial difference.

~~~
raverbashing
I'd argue cleaning notes and coins isn't even "modification" it's just that,
cleaning

Modification would be writing with a ball-point pen on it.

~~~
daveslash
My wife recently got me a colored & decorated $2 bill. It's decorated with
Chinese graphics to celebrate the year of the tiger.

[https://images-na.ssl-images-
amazon.com/images/I/91hUwSD3ImL...](https://images-na.ssl-images-
amazon.com/images/I/91hUwSD3ImL._AC_SX679_.jpg)

I was _very_ surprised to learn that this is not only legal, but apparently is
still considered legal tender. They're produced by a company called "The
Merrick Mint" \- which is not _actually_ a mint, just a company with "mint" in
the name. They specialize in taking real U.S. currently and
decorating/coloring it.

[https://www.merrickmint.com/](https://www.merrickmint.com/)

------
csense
I guess you could say this hotel's definitely laundering money :)

------
m4rtink
This reminds of Book Off, Japan's biggest used book store. They use special
machines to slightly shave off edges of books[0], so that the books appear
newer.

[0]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_Off#Operations](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_Off#Operations)

~~~
crooked-v
That trick with the edges is a pretty good value add, since a lot of people
don't really care about the actual age or history of the book, they just want
their bookshelves to appear neat.

~~~
catalogia
Theoretically I think it could actually extend the life of books, assuming a
clean fresh edge is less likely to propagate tears than a rough battered edge
which might have stress-concentrating nicks. Then again, pages tearing doesn't
really seem like a particularly common failure mode for books.

~~~
raverbashing
What you're saying applies to materials under stress, not paper

~~~
catalogia
Right, tears usually happen when you're turning a page.

------
solotronics
Change doesn't make sense today. Comparing the value of a penny in 1900 it
would be worth $0.31 today. Therefore we should get rid of pennies, nickles,
and dimes. It is a huge waste of human time to count these small denominations
out. They should round up to the nearest $0.25

[https://www.in2013dollars.com/us/inflation/1900?amount=0.01](https://www.in2013dollars.com/us/inflation/1900?amount=0.01)

~~~
sethammons
Each item rounds up. If you shop for food at the dollar-ish store, $1.01 now
goes to $1.25. A 14 to 24% price increase that will disproportionately affect
lower socioeconomic people. As someone who lived not so long ago when
literally saving a dime mattered, no thank you.

~~~
ghayes
If you’re comfortable with not being precise to half pennies or $0.001, then
there is likely a unit that you feel is equitable to round to, and the
question is what unit that should be. As rounding will favor you as often as
it works against you (assuming it’s not heavily gamed), there should be a unit
that people trait as fair. As that choice has remained the same regardless of
inflation, it might be fair to say we only use $0.01 because it’s what it used
to be, not because it’s the right choice. I would argue that $0.05 or $0.10
would be better choices than pennies, for instance.

~~~
TylerE
Worth pointing out that while $0.001 (mil) coins never existed, half-cent
coins were minted from 1792 to 1857.

Even in 1857 $0.005 was worth way way more than even a quarter is today.
Probably more than a dollar. (Actual inflation gets a bit hard to track going
back that far).

~~~
pmiller2
True, but $0.001 (mil) tokens do exist. They were usually used for sales tax
accounting, IIRC.

------
asdf21
As a rare coin collector, washed pieces are worth far, far, less.. cleaning
coins makes them shiny but also wears off important details.

I can't help but be slightly mortified by the mass-cleaning of coins..

>Along with the coins, the burnisher is filled with water, bird shot to knock
the dirt off, and a healthy pour of 20 Mule Team Borax soap. After three hours
of swishing the coins around, Holsen uses a metal ice scoop to pour the loot
into a perforated roast pan that sifts out the bird shot.

Argh, the horror!! I really hope no rare coins have passed through this.

~~~
nlh
Not sure who's downvoting you, but I came here to say exactly this, and you're
exactly right!

All my numismatic spidey sense twitched when I read the story. I remember one
of the first things I learned was that counter to instincts, cleaning coins
with manual abrasives is bad bad bad.

~~~
Theodores
What about ultrasonic washing? The machines sold for cleaning jewellery? Are
they okay?

~~~
ryanmercer
Cleaning coins that have potential numismatic value is always a no-no,
especially if it is something you intend to have graded.

Even stuff that doesn't have a numismatic value, just common 'junk silver'
(non key date coinage with silver content) is generally received poorly. (I'm
a mod of /r/silverbugs). Disrupting/reomivng natural patina, surface damage
(even microabrasion), artificial toning/patina is almost universally
undesirable.

Grading services, like PCGS, will even state a coin has been cleaned. PCGS's
page on 'no grade' coins on cleaning [https://www.pcgs.com/news/no-grade-
coins-pt4](https://www.pcgs.com/news/no-grade-coins-pt4) :

"This is a tough category and the subject of much debate and discussion over
the years. PCGS interprets cleaning as surface damage due to any form of
abrasive cleaning. "Cleaned" covers a wide range or appearances, from a
grossly polished coin to one where faint hairlines can be seen only at a
particular angle or in only one area on an otherwise perfectly normal coin.
This is perhaps the most frustrating of all the No Grades, because subtle
cleaning is often difficult to detect in less-than-optimal grading conditions.
"Dipping" (the removal of toning with a chemical bath) is not considered
cleaning under this definition, unless it has been done repeatedly or
improperly. In the past, many coins were cleaned by well-meaning numismatists,
before the dangers were fully understood."

Cleaning with non-abrasives could also lead to artificial toning, covered at
the same link above in their 'questionable color' section:

"Most experienced numismatists appreciate the beauty of a spectacularly toned
coin. Because toning is a natural chemical reaction, there are ways of
accelerating the process as well as "enhancing" the results. These artificial
means of creating toning are largely frowned upon, and if PCGS encounters a
coin which we believe has been helped along in the natural toning process, we
will not assign a numerical grade. A questionable color call can also occur if
one tries to recolor a copper coin back to its original "red" color. Toning is
also added in an effort to mask a past cleaning. Whatever the reason,
collectors like their coins naturally toned over many years."

~~~
Turing_Machine
There used to be a scam known as "sweating" where the scammer would take a
bunch of gold or silver coins, put them in a bag, and shake the crap out of it
for a while. Small particles of precious metal would wear off and accumulate
in the bottom of the bag, which could then be recovered and sold as bullion.
Afterward the (now somewhat-worn) coins could still be spent at their original
face value.

This was hard to detect compared to other common scams of the time(such as
clipping or filing the edges of the coin) because the wear pattern was pretty
close to what you'd expect from normal wear and tear.

------
Symbiote
How many pay with cash at a hotel?

I'd expect it to be very low — large bills, often paid for by a company credit
card or in advance online.

~~~
Johnny555
For the hotel bill itself, I agree that most people will pay via credit card,
but I've seen plenty of people paying cash for incidentals at the front desk
(snacks, drinks, etc) as well as at the hotel restaurant/bar.

~~~
samstave
There are plenty of times people who are traveling do not want a digital
record of their payments for things such as alcohol or "food for two"

~~~
teddyh
Why would anyone want a digital record of _any_ of their payments? By default?

EDIT: I should have clarified that I was thinking of a digital record _in
someone else’s possession_. Having a record of your own transactions
_yourself_ could certainly be useful.

~~~
Johnny555
One reason is to load it into their employers expense system for
reimbursement... My company credit card expenses automatically show up in our
expense system for easier expense reporting.

Another reason is so I can audit the charges -- if my credit card had an
option for "Don't track individual purchases", I wouldn't use it since I want
to look at the charges at the end of the month and make sure they were mine.

~~~
jefftk
Going even farther, I'd love it if full receipts passed through the credit
card system. Yes, my credit card company would mine the data, but replacing
"$20 at FOOCORP on 11/23" with "$20 at FOOCORP on 11/23 <click for receipt>"
would be well worth it to me.

(I wrote up something advocating this in [https://www.jefftk.com/p/attach-
receipts-to-credit-card-tran...](https://www.jefftk.com/p/attach-receipts-to-
credit-card-transactions))

~~~
tjohns
The functionality exists, and many receipts already do get uploaded into the
credit card network. It’s called “Level 3” transaction data.

This is especially true for air travel, where ticket details are almost always
attached to the charge. However, I’ve started seeing it done at some large
online merchants as well (e.g. Amazon). It’s typically used for expense
tracking on corporate p-cards.

It’s rare to see the additional details displayed for consumer accounts, but
the data is there on the backend.

------
diebeforei485
Couldn't they just get new coins (which would be shiny) from the mint? Would
that be more expensive than washing them?

~~~
Spooks
I would imagine a lot more time consuming. Driving to the bank and waiting in
line takes time

~~~
gshdg
They're currently spending 10 hours per week on this. I can't imagine that 2-3
trips per week would take longer than that.

~~~
JshWright
It's only what, 4 blocks?

------
Johnny555
_Along with the coins, the burnisher is filled with water, bird shot to knock
the dirt off, and a healthy pour of 20 Mule Team Borax soap_

Isn't bird shot typically made from lead? Are they coating the coins with
lead?

~~~
mikeyouse
In California, lead shot was a contributor to the near extinction of the
California Condor so it’s effectively banned for hunting purposes. You can
basically just find steel now.

[https://www.kqed.org/science/1944241/lead-ammunition-is-
now-...](https://www.kqed.org/science/1944241/lead-ammunition-is-now-banned-
for-hunting-wildlife-in-california)

~~~
Johnny555
It may be banned in certain areas but lead shot is still sold:

[https://www.cabelas.com/category/104567580.uts?CQ_view=list&...](https://www.cabelas.com/category/104567580.uts?CQ_view=list&CQ_ztype=GNU&CQ_ref=~type-
Lead)

[https://www.amazon.com/Magnum-Lead-
Shot-2-25-Pound/dp/B001QV...](https://www.amazon.com/Magnum-Lead-
Shot-2-25-Pound/dp/B001QV1A0Q)

And some bans have been reversed:

New U.S. Interior Secretary Ryan Zinke on Thursday issued an order overturning
an Obama administration ban on the controversial use of lead ammunition and
fishing tackle used on federal lands and waters

[https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-interior-zinke/new-
in...](https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-interior-zinke/new-interior-
head-lifts-lead-ammunition-ban-in-nod-to-hunters-idUSKBN16930Z)

But even if there were a ban, since this hotel has been doing this since the
1930's, they could still have a few hundred pound bags of real lead shot in
the basement that they're using for this.

~~~
Rebelgecko
I'm guessing most ammo being used isn't for hunting, it's for target shooting.
Lead ammo is still legal for that (and ranges can make some decent money by
sifting through their berms and recycling the lead).

Kind of a moot point, but I don't think Cabela's has any locations in
California, and they stopped shipping here after Prop 63

~~~
Alupis
> but I don't think Cabela's has any locations in California

No, but Bass Pro Shop is all over, and bought Cabela's a few years back.

------
quickthrower2
Awful popup videos and ads. Atrocious loading time. Dr;

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OrgNet
They are probably damaging rare/valuable coins by washing them... this is a
pretty ridiculous idea anyways...

------
GhostVII
Doesn't seem like a super profitable thing to do. The washer estimated that he
washed 1.5 million in change over 20 years. Paying someone 3 days a week over
20 years is a pretty significantly portion of that, although it doesn't say
how many hours a day they are paid for.

~~~
tln
1.5 million in change means more than (since you give out less than $1 in
change) 1.5 million interactions at the hotel are that much nicer.

They also paid a lot for the nice interior at the hotel. It's about luxury

