

Am I burnt out? Or just not suited for this job? - launchplus
http://chenzihui.com/49/is-this-the-dreaded-burn-out

======
rjd
It maybe just normal depression. It reads a little to me like you have lost
the feeling of control and feel like everything slipping away... and that
maybe manifesting as a coping mechanism as a form of depression.

To quote the intro from wikipedia, see if this is familiar:

\------

Depression is a state of low mood and aversion to activity that can affect a
person's thoughts, behaviour, feelings and physical well-being. Depressed
people may feel sad, anxious, empty, hopeless, helpless, worthless, guilty,
irritable, or restless. They may lose interest in activities that once were
pleasurable, experience loss of appetite or overeating, or problems
concentrating, remembering details or making decisions; and may contemplate or
attempt suicide. Insomnia, excessive sleeping, fatigue, loss of energy, or
aches, pains or digestive problems that are resistant to treatment may be
present.

\------

And most importantly also from wikipedia "Depressed mood is a normal reaction
to certain life events" i.e. things have happened which have caused the fun to
disappear. Remember if it depression, it happens to everyone and huge
percentage of people reading this would have the same reaction to your
situation.

I'm no expert on depression and its probably unwise for me to give any more
advise but as far as I'm aware talking is always a start, and anecdotally its
worked wonders for me in the past. Even just the process of explaining it
someone else can bring perspective to things that seem out of control, the
blog post may have already helped with this.

It might be a time for a catch up with a friend or your parents or something.

Or take up a completely different activity. I had a friend that studied
psychology and one thing he said that stuck with me was "your mind gets stuck
in loops, when you are in a mood you will only have thoughts related to that
mood".

So an easy way to break the mental cycle can be do something else that takes
your mind off it. I found squash good for this, its so fast, frantic, and full
of surprises that for 30 minutes you are in a completely other world, and
during that time your mind can relax, or process its outstanding stress.

~~~
reidmain
It is sad that depression seems to have become a four-letter word. Too many
people are afraid to talk about it or unaware about what depression really is.

Your suggestion about taking up another activity is spot on. When you define
yourself by your work it is difficult to ever stop thinking about it. I still
have problems putting work to the back of my brain when I walk home every
night. I've taken up running and plan to take up airsoft in an effort to
expand my horizons beyond just "how do I write that next line of code".

------
brador
I think in the next year or two we're going to see this more and more.

Degree qualified, startup fresh out of university with no post-grad work
experience, failed startup, making ends meet with freelancing with little hope
of rejoining a career track.

Now don't get me wrong, were all beating the Fuck Big Corp drum here, but you
can't beat big corp for a relatively stable income and ratable work
experience.

That's why my advice to kids is: Get that degree, get some work experience (1
year say), THEN work on that startup. That way, you have a fallback option.

~~~
knieveltech
For developers, getting on a "career track" is as simple as finding a
relatively high profile open source project that interests them and getting
some commits in. Instant resume, code examples and you've jump-started your
networking for a particular technology.

Edited to add: I have no idea why this is getting downvoted. If you disagree
with my assertion then by all means leave a comment. Hitting the down arrow
and wandering off does us both a disservice.

~~~
hack_edu
Not a downvoter, but this can sound like a standard "man-up" type of answer.

Its easy to suggest and might come easy to some, but it's way out of reach for
most young developers trying to get on the career track. Making a notable
contribution to an impactful project requires a lot of time and understanding.
Even if a project could use the help, jumping in head first like that is quite
daunting.

~~~
knieveltech
I appreciate your response, and I agree that upon reflection this pretty much
is the standard man-up answer. That being said the only other way I know to
get stuff accomplished is throw money at the problem, not typically an option
for devs straight out of college.

I understand what you're saying when you say it's daunting, but this doesn't
have to be a big deal. I'm not advocating someone run right out and start
cutting kernel patches straight out of school. The Open Source space is
enormous and it should be possible to pick a project that's in line with your
abilities. Example: there are at least three CMS projects I know of that are
well documented and very accessible to new developers looking to help out.

------
chris_dcosta
I've noticed there is a general malaise around a lot of people at the moment,
and I think it has nothing to do with personal circumstances, and more to do
with the "impending end of the world scenario" that's been in the media now
for nigh on 4 years.

I've also notced people are having real trouble making decisions that 5 years
ago would have been snap ones. It's as if there are a lot of people whose
thought processes are being befuddled because they worry that in a few months
time the world could be turned on its head.ie confusion arises when decisions
made today may need to be revised in the very near future in an unknown way.

Of course I worry about that too, and the last years have been the hardest I
have ever known for finding freelance work (yes to pay the bills), but I tell
you what, I've completely let go of any hopes of trying to protect myself from
any "world crisis" on the basis that if the worst does happen, we'll all
suffer equally, and you'll be in the same boat as me.

So give up trying to control it and things will start to look better already.
And decisions will be easier too.

~~~
IanDrake
>and more to do with the "impending end of the world scenario" that's been in
the media now for nigh on 4 years.

Agreed. I don't watch the news anymore (besides industry news) and I'm no
longer politically involved. Ignorance _is_ bliss.

------
buff-a
_I don’t even know what I am working for at the moment since everything seems
so unpredictable. Every feature that I design and code may just get changed or
scraped upon completion. Even if I do complete it, when am I going to get paid
for it? Or will I even get paid?_

You are not burnt out. You are just living in fear. I totally understand. You
are going to have to confront a different fear to change this situation: your
fear of sticking up for yourself in contract negotiation. Bottom line: if
someone owes you money, its your fault. If you don't know if you will get
paid, its your fault.

------
rdouble
Most people who do creative/analytical, solitary "desk job" work burn out at
some point. Writers get writers block, composers go mad, mathematicians solve
the Poincare Conjecture then disappear off the face of the earth.

Programmers have the worst burnout potential, because in addition to the
unpleasant parts of the job itself, you have to deal with some of the most
obnoxious personality types on the planet, and do all your work on a machine
that is conspiring to ensure you never get anything done. It's assumed other
solitary creative/analytical types are oddballs who take tons of time off to
recuperate between projects, but programmers are expected to produce day in
and day out. There's also the looming archetypes of the superhuman guy who
writes 3D engines in his spare time and the billionaire PHP programmer, making
you feel bad about both your abilities and bank balance.

As a general salve, I turn off the internet for days at a time, spend time
with friends as much as possible and go to the gym. However, none of that is
as effective as not working with bozos, and not working on projects I don't
care about.

------
0x12
You need to get better at the administration side of your business pronto.
What's getting you down is that you are apparently unable to control the
relationship with your customers, both financially and with respect to the
scope and definition of the work and that can become a real drag.

Once you have that under control I think you're ready for a re-evaluation of
being burnt out or not. When I work real hard and don't get paid I feel
miserable, when I work real hard and money flows in to my bank account I feel
a lot better. Ditto for working really hard and seeing the work discarded or
re-done several times. Inefficiencies like that can really get you down as
well.

Being burnt out goes quite a bit deeper than this.

------
wuster
I think your burnout is because you enjoy working hard, but have trouble
knowing when to find that balance between productivity and happiness.

In my 7 years since college, I've worked at two tech companies, and I've
experienced burnout at both at one time or another.

I'm dealing with it by:

1) managing expectations - people are generally reasonable when they're aware
of your work load and can sympathize with your need for leisure time

2) don't be a roadblock, but you can say "NO" more often - when I was younger,
I'd chase small wins here and there, but overall it did not impact my external
performance metrics much. It would have been more productive if I focused on
more impactful changes and leave some smaller tasks for newer team members
(and use it as an opportunity to transfer knowledge + teach)

3) there's always more work to do - one more email, one more changelist, one
more code blog to read, one more framework to learn, one more person to meet.
I have accepted that I cannot possibly exhaust my mental todo list. Anyone out
there who says they accomplish 100% of what they want to do is either lying or
have a short list.

------
launchplus
Thanks everyone for taking time to read and offering your thoughts on my
situation.

For the past few years, I've been working alone from home, locked away in my
room for the most part, and well lurking on HN.

I feel lifted to see the responses here.

My other problem now is that I have too much work on my plate that I have
trouble completing. Previously I naively took on new projects as the older
ones seem to be taking forever just to sign off on deliverables.

And honestly, there was the greed factor too - it was nice to receive the
deposit to kickoff a new project since I've not been getting a salary for the
past few years.

But now they are all coming back at the same time and I'm overwhelmed.

And with my diminishing interest in backend programming, I'm hoping to partner
with a backend developer to help me out. Do drop me an email
(launchplus@gmail.com) if you are keen.

All in all, I feel really foolish about a lot of the mistakes I made during
this freelancing period. I will be joining a VC funded startup for a full-time
job after I'm done with my current contracts, hopefully that will put my
career back on track.

------
Tichy
In general, working sucks. Having to work, that is.

~~~
prawn
"Oh, you hate your job? Why didn't you say so? There's a support group for
that. It's called everybody, and they meet at the bar." Drew Carey

------
rick888
This is why I stopped freelancing and moved onto making my own products. It's
not worth the hassle of chasing down clients.

~~~
knieveltech
I feel you. I bailed on doing side gigs about a year ago. Even with good rates
the tradeoff between that extra bit of cash and losing most of my spare time
wasn't worth it.

These days I charge an inflated consulting rate to come off the bench. So far
I haven't encountered a client willing to pony up, which is kind of nice since
I have my spare time to work on renovating my house and practice my
blacksmithing.

------
helloimben
Reading this brings up a lot of uneasy feelings for me. I am a designer, and
recent graduate with a job right out of school. I love what I do, and wouldn't
want to be doing anything different, but recently I've been hearing more and
more stories like this. It generally goes: the young, inspired designer/hacker
works his/her ass off for 3-4 years, then (poof!) "burns out."

I can't help but feel worried for myself. On average I happily work around 60
hours/week, and would probably do more if I didn't stop myself (I do need some
sleep, after all). Am I in that "3-4 years" stage? I want to do design the
rest of my life, but maybe I'm just shooting myself in the foot.

~~~
superkinz
You'll be fine. You may find out that after a while you hate the _type_ of
design you do but you'll probably still love designing - it's why we got into
it.

I graduated 6 years ago back when they hardly taught any web/UI work. I
started out in print and at first loved it, but quickly grew to hate it. I
learned enough about myself that it was clear that it was time to move on.
Then I finally accidentally landed a job at a startup and found what I really
loved - UX/UI. Then did that really well, and now I'm on to product design and
business.

Long story short, you're pretty likely to have an evolving set of interests
and that will allow you to get really good at a number of facets. You should
still be doing 60 hours a week or more if you want to be making big leaps
forward. Once you get burnt out on working your ass off doing that one thing,
you'll find something else really interesting and inspiring. Then go chase
that.

There are always new things to learn, so make sure you've got supporting
network to chat about your challenges with so that you know you're not alone.
A lot of times, there are little things you can do to keep your zeal for life
even though what you're hammering on may not be as interesting as it used to
be. But when it becomes downright depressing to go to work every day for 1-2
weeks, you better quit.

------
lisperforlife
I went through this phase recently. And there was a surprisingly easy solution
out of it. Finding new clients and get into a habit of working out. Both these
activities have given me a new lease of energy to approach problems. As the
clients have right to fire you, you have the rights to fire the client as
well. We all want to be nice to our clients but sometimes our decency is
mistaken for gullibility and they tend to take advantage of these situations.
Working out releases the necessary endorphins to combat the depression. Just a
30 minute jog everyday can make a world of a difference to your life.

------
michaelochurch
You might be burning out, but this is the "good" case of burnout in that
there's an obvious cause, and if that cause is attacked head-on, your passion
for your work will probably return. It's obvious that your clients are
treating you badly. Not paying for work completed is _never_ acceptable. It
doesn't matter if "we didn't use the code". You did the work and should be
paid.

Get an attorney immediately. I'm not saying you should sue previous clients.
If the amounts of money are small, it's not worth it. But in the future, he
will save you a lot more money than he costs. Every serious freelancer has
one, for exactly the reason you've discovered. Get firm contracts written with
unambiguous terms regarding project scope and payment, or you will be dealing
with this for a long time.

------
nazar
I am chasing one client for 2 months now. He didn't pay me. The problem is he
is father of one of my best friends, who I know since early childhood.
Everytime I call him he postpones our conversation. And this is one of the
numerous examples of me chasing clients. I know how you feel, even if its 10$
job, you still feel crappy if you are not payed at the end of the day as
negotiated. 2 years of freelancing experience here, I guess I'll quit soon.
Good luck!

------
padobson
How are you finding your clients?

In my experience, the best clients seem to come from relationships and
networking. Clients don't screw people they got from valuable friends and
partners. They do, however, screw people who are little more than an email
address they got from a Craigslist ad.

Look for more leverage with clients by using networking - also, take the
advice others gave and stand up to them with stricter contracts and hourly
pricing.

------
clistctrl
Burning out is a terrible feeling. As someone who got a job before finishing
school, I spent the first few years of my career working literally 16 hour
days. I felt the need to prove myself, and I worked hard to do it. After 3 or
4 years my life changed in some big ways, and the life style started to affect
me extremely negatively. I continued to try to work more hours but I wasn't
getting anything more done. It was like I had no more ambition to work. On one
particular project I hit a big dip. I became depressed, I started neglecting
things like laundry, or brushing my teeth, or eating. When the project ended,
I got some time to recover a bit (but not fully) a year or so later I was on
another stressful project. I think I hit my low during that. I almost became
completely separated from reality for lack of a better description. I started
having deep almost philosophical thoughts about what the point of life even
is. Again my productivity dropped lower (and also my quality of work, and my
communication) I tried to make up for it with extra hours, but it only made
things worse. Eventually I quit, and found a better job that has been pretty
strictly 9-5. Additionally I also stopped working on side projects for a
while. I think a really important part is realizing that the situation I was
in was not going to get better, and a complete change was necessary.

------
drstrangevibes
its not burn out, if you still like developing, your subconscious has just
realised before you have that you are wasting your time. Burnout is when you
cant do fruitful things, and the remedy is simple. Step away from the
computer, eat well get some fresh air and plenty of sleep. Works every time
;-)

