
Apple is holding the Unreal Engine hostage, Epic says in new motion - ArmandGrillet
https://www.theverge.com/2020/8/23/21397369/epic-apple-fortnite-lawsuit-ios-microsoft-developer-tax
======
falcolas
A quick Meta aside: Even if you absolutely utterly and completely loathe Apple
for their App store policies, Epic is not the company you want to be backing.

1) They engage in anti-customer behavior by buying exclusives. They don't fund
exclusives, they buy exclusives after they've been completed.

2) If they can't get an Indie as an exclusive, they don't want it. They don't
want to compete with Day and Date releases.

3) Their war chest is funded by gambling mechanics, mostly gambling mechanics
which are actively aimed at minors. While I can understand arguments for
"parents should parent" and "adults should be allowed to adult", Epic is based
out of the US, and gambling is largely controlled within the US.

4) EDIT: Oh, and their weaponizing their minor-heavy userbase as well against
Apple - their trailer and anti-apple skins are being promoted in Fortnight
(Rated T by the ESRB).

So yeah. Hate Apple all you want - there's plenty there to hate. But don't let
your hatred of Apple push you into backing Epic.

~~~
zachm0
> They don't fund exclusives, they buy exclusives after they've been
> completed.

I see this a lot but I have yet to come across a good explanation of why this
matters, could you explain? From my point of view it doesn't make a difference
when the developer gets the money, an exclusive is an exclusive.

~~~
AkelaA
Not to mention it's a false statement. They do fund exclusives through their
publishing arm, and are currently in the process of funding the next games by
Remedy (creators of Control), Playdead (Limbo, Inside), and Gen Design (ex
Team Ico team, responsible for The Last Guardian and such):
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M_m4LxDG1D4](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M_m4LxDG1D4)

And according to Skybound Games CEO, Epic was also involved in helping to
establish the team that completed development of The Walking Dead's final
season after Telltale collapsed, so it wasn't just a case of Epic simply
buying exclusivity after the fact:

"We’re excited to work together on their latest transformative event with the
launch of the Epic Games Store. Epic stepped up to the plate immediately to
work with us in order to bring the original team back together and ensure fans
will receive the completed season of ‘Telltale’s The Walking Dead: The Final
Season.'”"

[https://variety.com/2018/gaming/news/telltales-the-
walking-d...](https://variety.com/2018/gaming/news/telltales-the-walking-dead-
epic-games-store-1203093523/)

And really, the same can be said for other exclusive games that are still in
development, since money given to the devs is money that inevitably goes into
the production of the game. By virtue meaning that they're helping to fund the
game, at least in part.

------
mey
Strategically, I wonder who has the most to lose if the Unreal engine is
basically deplatformed from Apple.

iOS is a huge game market, but how many iOS games are powered by Unreal? macOS
is a tiny game market.

For game developers, between this and the ARM switch on macOS, this could be a
serious death to gaming on macOS.

I would also expect game developers to be mad at Epic to be playing chicken
with their game engine, although that may be unexpected fall out. It might
drive some game developers to move to other engines although this is probably
a stretch.

~~~
yyyk
Apple never cared about games (minus maybe a short period when the G4 came
out), and gamedevs know it. Unreal was never a serious contender for iOS. So
no serious immediate effect on either side.

In the long run, gamedevs would be even more reluctant to provide iOS/MacOS
builds, which doesn't matter at all since people don't buy Macs for gaming.

~~~
Hamuko
> _Apple never cared about games_

They're currently trying to sell people a gaming subscription service.

~~~
yyyk
Ah, wonderful. A platform where Apple can remove backward compatibility even
more easily, and which forces you out of the other subscription services.

The big difference between games and other software, is that typical devs also
profit from Apple making changes, e.g. Adobe managing to deprecate their
previous licences and switch to subscription-only without backlash since it's
Apple changing the platform. So Adobe loses a bit from porting, but gains more
from new subscriptions.

Old games are almost never ported as is, at best they're "remade/remastered"
which is a serious investment. So Apple making changes and choosing their own
APIs is a pure loss for gamedevs. That's hardly the only problem but that's a
big one.

------
mullingitover
I have a feeling this was a calculated move for Epic to save face while
abandoning MacOS development of the Unreal dev tools. If it really mattered to
them, they could remove their TOS-violating hacks from Fortnite and get their
developer license reinstated at any time.

Keep in mind that everything here has been gamed out ahead of time by Epic.
They knew they would get their app removed for the brazen TOS violation. They
knew that it would result in their developer account being suspended, and they
knew that it meant their other apps tied to that account would also be locked
out.

~~~
Gwypaas
To sue they need to have standing, simply asking and getting a no and then
carrying on accepting the old standard won't get you anywhere.

~~~
Despegar
I really don't understand why people keep saying this. They had standing
because they were a party to the Developer Program License Agreement. They
would have had standing even if they weren't because they allege they're being
denied use of an "essential facility".

~~~
an_opabinia
They had standing yeah. I think it's about showing reduction in consumer
welfare - Apple delisted an app that lowered prices for consumers.

~~~
Despegar
Their stunt doesn't actually demonstrate that Apple's commission harms
consumer welfare. If it did any retailer with a margin over the price of a
manufacturer's goods would also be harming consumer welfare.

~~~
an_opabinia
Yes, I agree, margin over the price of a manufactured good does harm consumer
welfare. I didn't write the legal opinions, but it's much more interesting to
talk about them this way!

The consumer welfare thing is just one factor of many to make a status-quo
antitrust law case a real battle. There hasn't been antitrust victories for
consumers in a very, very long time.

~~~
Despegar
Then we're in agreement that Epic's breach of the developer agreement wasn't
actually required to have standing or to bolster their antitrust claims.

~~~
an_opabinia
Then it should be obvious that, Apple could write whatever it wants in its god
damned agreements, it doesn't actually matter w.r.t. anti-trust claims.

Epic had to get Apple to go do an _anti-trust thing_ \- in their opinion. So
it's definitely required to bolster the claim.

~~~
Despegar
When I refer to consumer welfare I'm referring to the "consumer welfare
standard" that is relevant to antitrust cases. Epic's breach doesn't actually
aid them in demonstrating that Apple has harmed consumer welfare. The same
holds true for Spotify when they charged more on iOS to cover Apple's
commission.

~~~
an_opabinia
It will be interesting to see how consumer welfare standard will evolve to
accommodate people paying more for IAP because of app store fees. It's likely
that it will.

Probably 100% of congress uses an iPhone. 100% of judges. Every lawyer. It's
right in their face. 100% of them use Google, 0% use Bing. I don't think I
know a single non-engineering professional, English as a first language adult
who uses an Android device.

It's not some abstract situation the consumer welfare standard didn't
anticipate; it's the now. Nobody is going to sympathize with arguments about
choice because that hasn't been true for a while - nobody makes the choice,
not among these people, for alternatives, so is there really a choice?

------
phreack
How can Apple prevent an unrelated dev from publishing something made with
Unreal by banning Epic's account? Can't I deploy an app to the App Store with
my own?

~~~
falcolas
They can't. This is another attempt by Epic at gaining public sympathy for
intentionally breaking the terms of their licensing agreement with Apple to
publish on the app store.

~~~
gpm
This is a legal argument to a court attempting to get an injunction. It seems
to me to have very little to do with public sympathy.

The public really doesn't give a crap about whether or not their is one
contract or multiple, or the quality of apples legal arguments, which seems to
be some of the core issues raised in this motion responding to Apple's motion.

~~~
falcolas
It may also be a legal argument, but it's very clearly a move to gain public
sentiment to their side - it's being published broadly by the media, after
all.

Epic is painting themselves as the underdogs being bullied by Apple - the
multi-billion dollar _contract-breaking_ underdog.

~~~
cycloptic
When was Epic ever given a chance to negotiate the terms of this contract?

~~~
falcolas
They were given the same chance as you and I are with Epic's TOS for their
games/game store.

They wanted access to the iOS market, and the terms were there.

~~~
cycloptic
Which same chance is that? Please fill me in, I've never negotiated with
Epic's game store.

~~~
falcolas
Zero. It's take-it-or-leave-it. Standard contract negotiation "tactics" these
days.

~~~
cycloptic
That's unfortunate, maybe neither of them should be doing it?

~~~
hellisothers
Is it though? If you create a set of rules for your sandbox and somebody comes
along and wants to play in it but only if you change the rules and you say “no
thanks”, that seems totally reasonable. Why should you have to negotiate?

~~~
cycloptic
The "sandbox" isn't their property anymore, it was sold to the end user when
they bought the phone.

~~~
hellisothers
Maybe this is one of the fundamental misunderstandings of these arguments:
those who think this statement to be true and those who don’t. You bought the
phone, you didn’t buy the ecosystem, buying a $500 phone doesn’t give you the
right to dictate the multi-billion dollar business.

~~~
cycloptic
But it gives the vendor the right to tax you 30% on all future purchases
related to that device, even if you disapprove of the job they're doing in
stewarding the ecosystem? Despite that there are plenty of other vendors
standing by that would be happy to steward it if given the opportunity?

------
dsign
While I understand this is an ugly turf war between Epic and Apple, I'm a
little confused about certain other app. How is it that Audible (owned by
Amazon) let's you "spend credits" that you purchase at Audible.com directly in
the iOS App? Are they getting special treatment?

~~~
xondono
It doesn’t. Purchases need to be done through the audible web.

Even the amazon app doesn’t allow buying kindle ebooks directly.

~~~
sauwan
Seriously? Why do Apple users tolerate this?

------
candiddevmike
I am continuously surprised by the response from a lot of the HN community to
this. I would never have expected people to be championing the kind of gate
keeping Apple (and Google) have been enjoying for years. It hurts consumers by
driving prices, forcing awful IAP business models, and holds back innovation
due to private APIs or "policy violations".

These app stores are filled with so much shit these days that it's impossible
to find quality software, and the app store model gives these companies little
opportunity to differentiate and sell their offerings.

Give me the ability to install apps from any store, website, or platform. Give
me the ability to use a device whatever way I decide. Incentive developers to
create useful, enjoyable software instead of IAP shovelware. Make it the norm
and break users from depending on The One App Store.

~~~
darksaints
I've learned to no longer be surprised by it. There are a huge amount of
people in this industry who have staked their personal identity in a brand.
Apple, Tesla, Google, or whatever. It's no different than the high school
behavior I grew up with where you were allowed be one of three types of
people: Chevy, Ford, or Dodge.

~~~
ResidentSleeper
The unusually downvoted answer holds the key to the riddle: it's the hardcoded
tribalism making us justify our purchases as if they're political statements.

~~~
sidibe
I do think it has to do with spending money. Don't see the same levels of
defense for companies with "free" stuff. If Epic had only sued Google in this
issue they'd have had more support.

------
wizzwizz4
I want to support Epic, because they're challenging Apple's monopoly. But… I
have a feeling they're not doing it to be nice to _us_ , but because Apple's
mooching off “their turf” (i.e. us) when _they_ want to be doing all the
mooching.

~~~
weego
There no one to support here. If Epic was to force some kind of change here,
expect Epic Pay in every Unreal game whi h may have benefits in the short term
but how long does that ever last?

~~~
gpm
> but how long does that ever last?

Forever? Because now there are competing payment providers.

~~~
xondono
How are they competing? Either the court rules that what Apple is doing is
lawful, and is the single payment provider, or they decide it’s not, and Epic
becomes the single payment processing provider for unreal games.

Either way game devs have no choice

~~~
gpm
> and Epic becomes the single payment processing provider for unreal games.

This seems like an unjustified assumption that Epic would attempt to leverage
any monopoly they had on game engines to create a monopoly on payment
processing. They haven't done this on desktop where they (up to legal issues)
could, so I don't see why you think they would on IOS.

Moreover, there is competition between game engines and gamedevs are not a
captive audience to quite the same extent as consumers are.

Moreover, if epic wins and they attempted this they would have literally
established the precedent for Apple to sue them in return.

~~~
xondono
> This seems like an unjustified assumption that Epic would attempt to
> leverage any monopoly they had on game engines to create a monopoly on
> payment processing.

Why? That’s what they’re selling

------
martin_bech
No they are not, Epic decided to go all out, thereby risking the all ios
business including the Unreal Engine.

------
dep_b
Any iOS developer at Epic can still use their own developer account, even a
free one, to access all of the tools they need. The only thing impossible is
_deploying_ their own software like Fortnite. Any 3rd party Unity dev has it’s
own certificate and isn’t hurt by this.

Pretending you’re blocked on doing anything for iOS and macOS because the
account you use to deploy Fortnite has been locked is bullshit

