
Controversial New Milk Shakes Up Big Dairy - calbearia
https://www.wsj.com/articles/controversial-new-milk-shakes-up-big-dairy-1524571203
======
zem
non-wsj article about a2 milk:
[http://www.takepart.com/article/2016/03/30/a2-milk/](http://www.takepart.com/article/2016/03/30/a2-milk/)

------
aerophilic
There is something significant and interesting here to consider around the
foods we eat. How does history/social norms dictate food choice?

With milk specifically therE was new research talking about how it is
_unusual_ that we can drink milk at all [0]. Most of the world has trouble
with Milk, but interestingly Europeans had developed the ability to digest
milk.

Fast forward to today, milk primarily comes from “European” cows. However this
“new” A2 milk comes from a different kind of cow and at least in theory
doesn’t have the issues that typical (European) cows have.

When my first son was born, and now with our second, they both had issues when
my wife would eat dairy. At the time I researched this extensively, and went
as far as tried to acquire this “Jersey Cow milk”. Unfortunately, at the time
I just couldn’t get it where I live. If this is now a true “thing” I would be
really excited to see if it would allow my wife to drink milk while producing
milk herself.

[0]
[http://abcnews.go.com/Health/WellnessNews/story?id=8450036](http://abcnews.go.com/Health/WellnessNews/story?id=8450036)

~~~
philwelch
We should probably clarify that it's _cow_ milk that Europeans seem unusually
well-equipped to digest. Mongols have drank horse milk for a very long time,
ever since they were horse nomads.

~~~
bonesss
I notice a large amount of cultural bias in my own opinions around milk...
Objectively, drinking cow excretions is kinda odd. And milk from a horse is
highly comparable.

And, yet, my first reaction to this interesting historical info is "ewwwww,
_horse_ milk, gross".

------
neonate
The article can be read at [http://archive.is/o239C](http://archive.is/o239C).

------
King-Aaron
Just as an aside note, in Australia this "new" A2 milk has been around for at
least the last five years:
[http://www.farmweekly.com.au/news/agriculture/cattle/dairy/b...](http://www.farmweekly.com.au/news/agriculture/cattle/dairy/brownes-
signs-deal-with-a2-corporation/2671862.aspx)

------
azinman2
I highly recommend those that have trouble with milk to try Oatly...
especially their (now sold out) Barista Blend. It's the closest thing to milk
that isn't. The mouthfeel of the barista blend is amazingly the same.

Don't buy the Pacific brand, it's crap in comparison.

~~~
Moru
Oatlys packages are funny. Their packages say "It's Swedish!" but when you
read the fine-print on some packages, it's produced in Germany. I always
preferred oat-drink istead of milk so have been using that since 1997
somewhere. My daughter had milk protein allergy when she was small and still
loves Oatly and don't want milk at all. Luckily there are many other ways to
get enough calcium if you just get away from the dairy industry propaganda...

------
sologoub
US run-of-the-mill milk isn’t even what most people would think it is.

Typical “non-industrial” way of getting “milk” is to milk a cow into some
bucket/pan to hold the liquid. It will start separating and cream will float
to the top. It gets skimmed and used for other products. What’s below is
normal milk.

In US (no clue where else), the milk is separated to get ALL fats out first.
The the right amounts of fats are recombined with the liquid left over, often
fortified with some vitamins and sold as “milk”. This is where you get the
exact, perfectly non-separating, homogeneous product, with predictable fat
contents.

EDIT: there is also mechanical homogenization process as noted in comment
below that does not use chemicals, but instead mechanically breaks down clumps
of fats to make them more dissolvable.

Problem is, once you separate the fats and then mix them back in, they don’t
exactly want to stay mixed. For this you use stabilizers and other chemicals.

EU apparently is pretty strict on what these “stabilizers” can be, by specific
dairy product. US appears to be in an arms race with itself to make these more
intricate. These also can be allergens.

Don’t know how wide-spread this is, but I know over a dozen people that are
“lactose-intolerant” in US, but can consume dairy quite safely in EU.

A2 could be hitting on something similar, but for some people even non-
homogenized milk from the Holsteins (supposedly containing the evil A1) could
be the answer.

~~~
sitharus
I can't comment on what the US allows, but the normal process of standardising
and homogenising doesn't involve any additives. The fats and a liquid known as
permeate are separated from the milk via centrifuges and filters. Then the
parts are tested and recombined to produce a given level of fat, protein and
lactose. After this the milk is homogenised by forcing through a screen which
breaks up the fats and then pasteurised. There's no need for additives in this
process as milk is naturally an emulsion.

One reason for homogenisation is the pasteurisation process causes the fats to
clump together and rise. This is exploited when making clotted cream.

Personally I buy non-homogenised milk as I prefer the taste, but that's just
me,

~~~
sologoub
Good call, I’ll edit to clarify that.

In milk you still get natural separation:
[https://www.foodbusinessnews.net/articles/10654-stabilizer-o...](https://www.foodbusinessnews.net/articles/10654-stabilizer-
options-for-dairy-formulations)

It’s far more pronounced in milk products mixed with something else -
chocolate milk, ice cream, etc.

~~~
djrogers
Your edit does not clarify the fact that you are incorrect - what is sold as
'milk' in the US has no stabilizers or chemicals in it. Those are only present
in milk-based products and milk-based drinks.

------
mrmondo
"There is no current scientific evidence that A2 milk has nutrition and health
benefits beyond regular milk"

\- Greg Miller, chief science officer at the National Dairy Council in the
U.S.

~~~
lostlogin
It’s not like he has a vested interest or anything.

It doesn’t take much google time to get a more informed answer. The numbers in
the studies aren’t large but it’s presumably hard to get ethics for feeding
people with a severe stroke intolerance something that is closely related to
the allergen. Starting small would seem logical.

~~~
dbasedweeb
Nutrition research is famously bad, worse than social science research. I
would want to see a lot of replication before I took it with even a grain of
delicious salt. The history of such research is a disappointing one after all.
Humans are incredibly diverse, and it’s hard to do good research with controls
on us when it comes to diet, but that still means weak prelim studies are
often not worth the time of day.

------
brownbat
> Although the science behind so-called A2 milk remains disputed, the entry of
> big companies into the market shows how changing consumer preferences create
> new opportunities that dairy giants can’t afford to ignore—especially as
> profits have been eroded in recent years by everything from almond milk to
> dairy-free ice cream.

Some days I want them to stop all AI research and get to work on an extension
that removes all weasel words from articles.

~~~
8077628
You should remove all the non-weasel words, since the weasel words are the
only true ones in these cases.

------
ioquatix
I've been waiting for this to go mainstream for a long time. Unfortunately, my
experience of mainstream milk is it's generally pretty crappy, mostly because
of how it's produced. In New Zealand, the average "milk" is pretty
disappointing.

I've enjoyed A2 milk in the past but it's always been from boutique farms and
most of the time they don't scale up (e.g. Ridge A2 Milk was a company which
produced a great product but failed ~2010 I guess due to lack of traction).

I'm not sure whether it's better milk because of the chemical structure, or
because it's not reconstituted in a factory. I'm personally enjoying Naturalea
milk, it's one of the few I can actually enjoy
([http://goodmanfielder.com/portfolio/naturalea/](http://goodmanfielder.com/portfolio/naturalea/)).
I think that their entire production process yields a better product,
something that Fonterra will unlikely be able to achieve because they scale
their production while minimising cost.

I'd rather pay a bit more and get milk I enjoy. Boutique A2 milk is some of
the best I've had.

~~~
erentz
> In New Zealand, the average "milk" is pretty disappointing.

Genuinely surprised. One of the things I hate about living in the US is the
terrible milk. I have a hard time drinking it. I don’t know what they do to it
here but it comes with a gross, almost off aftertaste. (It also seems to have
a surprisingly long shelf life.) New Zealand milk is amazing by comparison.
It’s one of the things I love about going home. :-)

~~~
abawany
If available to you, I can recommend trying the following brands:

* [http://www.kalonasupernatural.com/](http://www.kalonasupernatural.com/) \- non-homogenized, available at Natural Grocers

* [http://www.promisedlanddairy.com/our-story/](http://www.promisedlanddairy.com/our-story/) \- seems to be from Jersey cows, if the color of the milk is any indication

Another thing to watch out for if you are buying Horizon Organic is the UHT
(ultra high temperature) processing it and some other brands use. It makes the
milk shelf-stable (i.e. a sealed container needs no refrigeration) but adds a
burnt taste that can be offputting.

~~~
Moru
This is very common in Germany, it has some similar taste as the aromas they
use for margarine to taste creamy. It's really horrible, I have never managed
more than a sip of milk in Germany. Shelf life is three months, room
temperature. If you want fresh milk you can find it in some bigger
supermarkets but only a few bottles and I seldom seen anyone buy it.

------
petecox
Paywalled but some background for readers outside Australia:

The supermarket duopoly Coles/Woolworths have had a pricing war by selling
substandard 'milk' at a loss to encourage customers through their stores. The
result has been many farmers and smaller dairies struggling financially, e.g
the Murray Goulburn cooperative forced to sell its operations to Canadian
Saputo recently. FWIW, I normally buy Jonesy's and the local deli has recently
started selling St David's - processed in suburban Melbourne.

A2 is thus one smaller brand seeking market differentiation through improved
product - it all tastes just like milk to me but I then don't have the protein
intolerance.

------
phoneyphone
Made 4x on their stock since I added them to my portfolio. Ironically doing
better than most tech companies.

~~~
latch
How is that ironic?

~~~
adamnemecek
Dairy doesn’t seem super profitable.

~~~
olliej
It is, just (for a variety of reasons) not super profitable in the US.

But there’s also scale, etc involved - Fonterra is cumulatively a huge dairy
producer so has significant pricing power.

Also as far as I can make out (moved from nz to the us many many years ago)
farming in the US seems to be much less efficient - the mere existence of
subsidies speaks to that.

(Minor edit: I did a quick google to make sure I was still right about the
above statements, and per Wikipedia - so 100% accurate - NZ is the only
developed nation with no subsidies or price rules on agriculture, and Fonterra
alone is responsible for 30% of global dairy exports)

~~~
ekianjo
yes nz has made headlines by reforming their agricultural business many years
ago and its been working great for them.

~~~
rangibaby
> and its been working great for them.

If money is all that you count. Switching from low-impact sheep farming
(especially in the South Island) to dairy has basically ruined the
environment. It's NZ's worst kept secret. I guess it will take something like
Japan's "四大公害病" to make everyone wake up

~~~
olliej
The "low impact" sheep farming clearing millions of acres of forest.

But yeah it does seem like the Canterbury authorities especially have been
terrible at actually enforcing environmental laws (based on stuff.co.nz -- the
best reporting and editing in the world :) ).

------
nowarninglabel
For those considering cow milk alternatives, I've been drinking pea 'milk'
from Ripple foods and it is pretty great.

I also really enjoy Califia Farms' Coconut Almond Milk.

And for ice cream, Coconut Bliss I find to be even better than the real stuff.

Your mileage may vary of course.

~~~
neeleshs
I've found that milk alternatives have more than 20 ingredients in them. I
don't understand what half of them are, and I don't know what long term
effects such milks have. I'd love to switch to an alternative, but haven't
found one without several additives in them.

~~~
ficklepickle
Many nut and seed "milks" are an easy DIY. Just soak the, for example, almonds
overnight then put them through a sturdy cold press juicer. Soy milk is more
work, as it must be heated.

It should be consumed with in a couple days, since there are no preservatives.

------
theBobBob
I think that some EU court ruled that only actual milk can be called milk so
no more Soy Milk, Almond Milk etc. Don't think that it is enforced anywhere
yet.

------
freedomben
Been hearing from people IRL that have tried this and swear by it. Definitely
time to give it a shot.

~~~
gwern
Any of them blind it?

~~~
freedomben
Not scientifically. All of them had regular milk previously and gave it up for
some amount of time before trying out the "new milk."

------
agitator
What's the tech behind this? Are these GMO dairy cows that do not produce the
protein?

~~~
davidpaulyoung
Jersey, Guernsey cows produce milk that only has the A2 protein naturally. No
screening required.
[http://www.honeymoonbrands.com/milk](http://www.honeymoonbrands.com/milk) and
[https://www.motherjones.com/environment/2014/03/a1-milk-a2-m...](https://www.motherjones.com/environment/2014/03/a1-milk-a2-milk-
america/)

~~~
yorwba
Your first link doesn't mention A1/A2 at all, and the second says "The A1
protein is much less prevalent in milk from Jersey, Guernsey, and most Asian
and African cow breeds, where, instead, the A2 protein predominates." which
doesn't support your claim that they _only_ produce A2.

------
jamiethompson
We exclusively use Koko coconut milk in my family.

------
garyvee_
Paywall removed: [https://outline.com/eVph3y](https://outline.com/eVph3y)

As a lactard, I can attest—I tried this and didn’t have any indigestion
problems. Maybe lactose intolerance is a hoax.

~~~
sergers
I think alot of it is generalized without enough scientific analysis/limited
by current technology.

"Lactose intolerance" could be many different reactions that could be not
lactose specifically with many individuals. Could be a byproduct commonly
found with lactose(and maybe the a2 milk process removes that)

(similar to how recent, debated, studies for gluten intolerance may not be
specifically gluten for many people, could be a similar by
product/chemical/reaction to something commonly produced with gluten).

~~~
dragonwriter
> "Lactose intolerance" could be many different reactions

It's not, it's pretty well understood.

OTOH, lots of allergies to milk proteins are misidentified by sufferers of
them as lactose intolerance, as they have vaguely similar superficial symptoms
and are both negated by avoiding milk.

~~~
lostlogin
Exactly. But this is poorly understood by the general population and who is
going to understand or know if a particular milk protein is present?

~~~
Moru
It's going to be heavily advertised if it hasn't started already, and then
everyone will be lactose intollerant. Because someone that feels better using
a more expensive product will keep buying the more expensive product as long
as they feel better from it.

------
mattspitz
Shaking up big dairy would make big butter, no?

~~~
NetOpWibby
*yuge

------
psychometry
I don't understand why we can't blacklist domains on HN.

~~~
briandear
Why would we blacklist one of the most important American newspapers?

~~~
13of40
I should be able to blacklist it from showing up when I look at hacker news,
either by the grace of the ycombinator site or via a custom client. Does this
exist?

~~~
dragonwriter
No, because web discussion boards are still behind where NNTP news readers
were 20 years ago.

EDIT: Or, 30 years, for that matter.

------
DEFCON28
I don't want to see another good cheap source of protein be demonized, the way
gluten (seitan) and peanuts have been. Most people can tolerate milk well.

------
mst
@dang: Can somebody _please_ tag WSJ articles as paywalled? I am getting
deeply bored of seeing the domain name and clicking through anyway thinking
this would be something I could actually read.

~~~
dang
Please see
[https://news.ycombinator.com/newsfaq.html](https://news.ycombinator.com/newsfaq.html)
and
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10178989](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10178989).
As long as the paywalls have workarounds, they're ok here. They suck and are
annoying to everyone, but HN would be worse without WSJ, NYT, the New Yorker,
the Economist, etc., so this is a lesser-evil solution. Hopefully someone will
eventually fix publishing on the web, and then we won't have either the
paywall problem or the paywall complaint problem.

The situation is made less annoying by users posting workarounds in the
threads, which they usually do, and have done in this one.

~~~
mst
I'm apparently for whatever reason in the category of "gets insta-paywalled,
no quota, incognito mode doesn't help" but the comments elsethread making
clear that many others aren't suggests to me that I was overestimating the
actual annoyance level caused across the userbase, so the current policy now
makes much more sense to me.

Thanks for the explanation.

~~~
dang
Incognito mode often doesn't help for me either, but if you look for
workarounds posted in the threads, you'll usually find one. It's also ok to
ask for one.

~~~
mst
Thanks! All things considered, I have only one thing to say: Please excuse my
being a miserable bastard.

~~~
dang
We are all miserable bastards.

------
SeriousM
Milk is produced by forcing cows into pregnancy and then taking their babies
away (on the first 72h). No matter if the milk is A1 or A2, it's made of
cruelty by exploiting mothers and orphan children. Enjoy your next breakfast
on mothers day.

~~~
sgtmas2006
I will, it's still pleasant.

~~~
marricks
All it takes is picking up a different product in the dairy aisle to stop it
from happening, why not choose compassion?

Pleasantness doesn’t make up for what the calf loses or their mother had to go
through.

~~~
marricks
Revealing when you get downvotes but no replies to a comment written with
nothing but kidness and good intentions.

People really don’t want to think about the morality of their choices.

~~~
jessaustin
Haha I got downvoted for a harmless joke. This thread is a dumpster fire.

~~~
NetOpWibby
Same!

------
8077628
Wow, they're literally creating demand for a product that serves no purpose by
"glutenizing" some harmless milk protein and selling "gluten-free" milk.
Shameful.

And the irony is that milk has a component, lactose, that is legitimately
indigestible for large numbers of people. It was gluten before gluten was
gluten, except not BS! But products already exist for that, so they're
glutenizing milk because, let's face it, a sucker is born every second and it
ain't cheap sending kids to college these days.

Godspeed A2 milk, may the impoverishment of your customers reduce their
propensity to procreate!

Preemptive edit: the stealth marketing is so so thick in this thread! Yuck!

~~~
chiefalchemist
Are you saying that gluten is healthy? That it has no negative impact on the
human body? That's contrary to the current science, is it not?

~~~
JumpCrisscross
> _That 's contrary to the current science, is it not?_

No, for people without Celiac’s, NCGS, gluten ataxia or a wheat allergy
gluten-free eating is a fad diet [1].

[1] [https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gluten-
free_diet](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gluten-free_diet)

~~~
code_duck
Isn’t the idea that these people have NCGS?

~~~
sb8244
I have no opinion on the gluten-free diet trend.

I believe that the popular opinion by many is that they do not have NCGS. TV
personalities like Bourdain drive this heavily by discussing how gf used to
not really be a thing in restaurants, but now is quite popular.

------
DavidSJ
Big Dairy is being upped by controversial new milk shakes.

~~~
logicallee
you're making a pretty low-quality joke but this headline really shouldn't
have made it past the editors' desk in its current form because it's simply
too confusing. (Because the term "milk shakes" makes it a garden path
sentence.[1])

It's obviously "deliberate" but simply too hard to parse. Personally if I
really insisted on the pun I would have put an extraneous comma that
disambiguates:

>Controversial New Milk, Shakes Up Big Dairy

That still has the pun in it but at least would be readable. If people wonder
why there's an unnecessary comma there they might realize the pun.

[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garden_path_sentence](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garden_path_sentence)
\- which includes "When read, the sentence seems ungrammatical, makes almost
no sense, and often requires rereading so that its meaning may be fully
understood after careful parsing." Certainly true for me.

~~~
DavidSJ
It was a low-quality joke, I agree (most of my jokes are). But I actually was
trying to point out that it’s a garden path sentence.

~~~
logicallee
Sorry, I was unnecessarily harsh :)

~~~
DavidSJ
No problem at all. Have a good day.

------
perseusprime11
Does anybody get constipated drinking regular milk? If yes, why not consider
A2 milk?

~~~
sjwright
Nice stealth marketing post.

~~~
dang
This breaks the site guidelines. Please read
[https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html](https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html)
and
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16928460](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16928460).

The parent comment may be unsubstantive, but accusing other users without
evidence is poisonous, and that's worse.

~~~
sjwright
You just accused the grandparent comment of being unsubstantive. That sounds
like a politically correct insult to me. All I did was applaud them for doing
something well.

