
Ask HN: Engineers, don't you feel like pawns? - mezod
Yes, I don&#x27;t know where I want to go with this question, but don&#x27;t you feel like pawns? Busting your heads with complicated problems just because it gives purpose to our lives while others benefit from it? How do you deal with this?
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wilsonnb3
> while others benefit from it

I get satisfaction from other people benefiting from my work. Why would I want
to perform work that benefits no one or only myself? Seems selfish.

I assume you meant to imply that I'm being taken advantage of in some way by
my employer but that is not the case. I enjoy managing computers and
programming. I don't enjoy running a business, selling things to people,
dealing with insurance companies directly, or many of the other things that I
don't have to do because my employer does them.

Often times there are other people that enjoy those activities doing them.
It's a symbiotic relationship, or at least it should be in an ideal world.
It's possible for everyone to benefit even if some people benefit more
financially than others.

------
rthomas6
I work in a place where my boss is an engineer, his boss is an engineer, and
his boss is an engineer. I've found this feeling is helped a lot by your
superiors actually understanding what you are doing and why. I'm still a pawn,
but I feel appreciated.

~~~
GoToRO
One keyword I've found is developer-led.

~~~
ASpring
I disagree with this. Teams I have been on that are very engineer-driven had
tendencies to create products that they thought were innovative or technically
interesting rather than something customers actually wanted.

I think broader realizations of this have led to the industry-wide investment
in UX research in the past decade. Though I will acknowledge my own bias here
in no longer being a software developer and now more of a UX researcher.

~~~
rthomas6
Yes, this is a major con! Luckily my job involves a lot of R&D for the
government, so UX and customer adoption isn't _as_ important, though it still
is important.

Like other commenters have said, you need a balance. A workplace where
everyone does not understand what the customer wants is crazy. A workplace
where (almost) everyone does not understand any technical details of how to
build what the customer wants is also crazy.

Basically, you need enough people with enough domain knowledge to avoid this
situation:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg)

------
Jtsummers
Find a way to be better compensated. Find a way to solve more interesting (to
you, not just the company) problems. Find a way to solve meaningful-to-society
problems.

A former colleague of mine _hated_ that half our job was defense work. He
managed to stay off those projects, but was never happy because he was always
one day away from being assigned to them. He didn't hate the military, but had
no desire to be involved in it. He got a job making systems that saved lives
instead (infants, at that). Maybe someone else was still getting outsized
profit off his labor, but the work he was (is?) doing had more value to him
than his prior work.

------
johngalt
Most of human history is defined by doing manual labor until crippled or dead.
Only a subset of people in history have ever had any sort of engineering role.
Only in the last few decades have jobs like mine been invented.

No I don't feel like a pawn. I feel like I have been given a tremendous
inheritance and now it's my turn to contribute. If anything I look at what
those before me created and am disappointed that I'm not their equal.

------
dpeck
[https://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/work](https://www.smbc-
comics.com/comic/work)

------
bsvalley
Unless you're doing this for free, it's a pretty lucrative way to make money.
Isn't it? I think we do benefit from it too.

I'd think about people who didn't go to college to study CS, who end up
working in a factory or a grocery store. I wonder if they feel like pawns...
Engineers are totally fine ;)

Now, in 2018, do engineers get treated like resources? Of course but that's
another problem. Expensive resources still.

~~~
mezod
that's my point, in theory we do some quite complex stuff so why are we ok
with being resources? we do have the opportunity to realize this and make a
change, factory workers might not..

(not trying to go anywhere with this, just loud thinking)

~~~
mars4rp
as long as we are replaceable we can't change anything. I think all engineers
are replaceable so business owners have very little motivation to keep us
happy and pay us more.

~~~
jakobegger
Business owners have a big incentive to keep you: They don't want you to
leave. Hiring a replacement is time consuming and expensive.

Employers don't like hiring and interviewing any more than employees do.

~~~
mmt
These assertions may be true if the business is sole-proprietor owner-
operator, but, beyond that, the assymetry grows quite a bit, including what I
posit is a huge step function when the executives are no longer majority
owners (or even are just not involved in hiring/firing).

In the typical case, the incentives and power to do anything about them are
misaligned. For example, a peer's time will be consumed in interviewing a
replacement, but that peer never had any power to raise the salary of the
incumbent.

~~~
badpun
In practice, you can sometimes switch to contracting for the same company (vs
being an employee). The limits for contracting rates are usually much higher
than limits for salaries, so there's plenty of room for a raise. I don't know
if it's legal in the US, but I've seen it happen in Europe (Poland, Sweden).

~~~
mmt
AFAIK, it's legal in the US, too, but I'm not sure what point you're making in
the context of the sub-thread.

Typically, the decision to convert to contracting is between the worker and
management, excluding the worker's peers and the company's owners (unless
manager-owned).

------
staunch
IMHO You're only a pawn if you're trading hours of your life for amounts of
money that can't buy your freedom. So you're not a pawn if you run a company
and you're not a pawn if you're an employee with enough equity to make FU
money.

[http://www.ycombinator.com/apply/](http://www.ycombinator.com/apply/)

~~~
ajeet_dhaliwal
Most people should feel like pawns based on this definition. I am inclined to
agree though.

------
codingdave
No, I feel like an important member of a team who is building out a good
product. Sure, there are discrepancies between my ideal world, and the ideal
world our leadership is taking us to, but that doesn't make me a pawn. I am
paid fairly for my work, and in my mind I balance that compensation with the
differences between how I would do things vs. how things actually are. Most of
the time, the balance is there and I continue with the team, doing my part and
fulfilling my role so that everyone else can fulfill theirs.

That being said, if the balance isn't there, and you don't feel you are
compensated fairly for your work and the non-ideal parts of the job, then it
is time to talk to your boss and work it out. Either change the situation to
match your ideals, change the compensation to make it worth it, or leave.

But that decision -- to stay, fight for change, or go -- is completely up to
you.

------
twoquestions
Yes.

The deeper question I've been trying to work out is how do we better spread
out risk, control of the business, and the value created by our work?

------
sbfeibish
What bothers me is the CEO goes out and recruits (convinces) the best people
he/she can find. Gets them to work for the company. And the
founders/CEO/principals collect almost all of the money. Based on the hard
work of others. All the money goes to number 1. If you want to be well
compensated you have to start your own company. Or come across a Steve Case,
or Khosla/McNealy. And even then you may have to demand (Joy/Andy
Bechtolsheim) better compensation.

~~~
aiyodev
Return is a function of risk. There’s very little risk in accepting a job
offer. There’s a lot of risk in starting a company.

------
codegeek
"..while others benefit from it.."

Depends on how you look at this. Others are benefitting but you are also
benefitting by making money and having a job, no ?

If you mean that engineers should work for themselves, they have to then
decide to take more risk. All options are on the table but everything comes
with a cost.

So no, I don't feel like a Pawn even though I totally get where you are coming
from. If you don't like something about your life, only YOU can change it.

------
nik736
Basically in every job you share your time and "head" in exchange for money.

------
imbokodo
What you're talking about used to be discussed a lot. You can go to Wikipedia,
or elsewhere, and read about relations of production, alienation, the
expropriation of surplus labor time and what have you.

In the past, those who work organized around these issues, discussed them and
had a common philosophy and so forth.

Those benefiting from your labor broke up or supplanted these organizations
and now have control of the discourse. Many workers feel as you do, but the
ones who benefit from exploiting you have been fairly successful from
isolating you from the many who feel as you do.

I would suggest reading about the subject, then seeking out and dipping your
toe in local organizations which deal with such things.

~~~
AnimalMuppet
There have been times when I received more than a fair share of the value that
I created, because I was well paid, but the company wasn't profitable. Oddly,
I felt more alienated then, because I felt like what I did didn't matter (at
least not enough to make us profitable).

------
hnruss
No, I don't feel that way. I solve complicated problems because I need to earn
a living, not because it gives purpose to my life.

If I was feeling that way and was having trouble dealing with it, I'd probably
try figure out some other way to earn a living.

------
aeternus
I enjoy solving complex problems, and it is great working with a strong
business team that is able to sell those solutions for the benefit of others.

This often leads to even more interesting & complex problems, and the market
provides a decent feedback loop about what is and isn't valued.

If you don't like complicated problems as an engineer, you may be in the wrong
role. If you'd rather deal with people, you could look into becoming a sales
engineer. If you want more say in the product and direction of the business,
you could consider joining a smaller company where your voice will likely have
more weight.

------
illwrks
Something to keep in mind, and applies to every job. When you book it down to
the core there are two jobs, making something or selling something. So
regardless if you are an engineer, a designer, an architect, sandwich making
etc your work is involved in making something. If you work in advertising,
telemarketing, client management, sales etc, you work on selling something.

The retirees, million and billionaires etc are the ones who don't have to do
either, but some do to keep busy. Nothing worse than an idle mind.

So as a maker you can do hard physical work, or do hard mental work.

------
pascalxus
Yes and that's how it should be: it's part of the definition of "work". When
you work, you should be providing value for others that's why they're paying
you money. This necessitates being a pawn. You may even have a high degree of
latitude and freedom to choose objectives, for instance if you're a founder.
But, even then, you're just a pawn of capitalism, attempting to provide value
to a marketplace that dictates what can and can't exist.

The way to "deal" with it is to understand what employment is. Employment is
the exchange of your time for money. Think of your body as an asset: like a
house you rent out, or like renting out your car on Turo. Only, you're renting
out your body and mind for 8 hours a day. Inexchange, you get a paycheck. What
you choose to do with the rest of your life is up to you. Out of those 168
weekly hours, you still have 128 hours left to do whatever you like with.
Historically speaking, that's not a bad deal.

------
stevenwoo
Maybe this is kind of tautological if not philosophical - could you try to
find work in a company that has an objectives that are aligned with what you
think you should be doing with your life?

------
AnimalMuppet
I'm making a large amount of money creating software that helps real people.
Others are also making money from what I do, but then they provide the tools
that I use, and a huge amount of infrastructure that makes the whole system
work. And they take the risk. I feel like I get a fair share of the value that
I create.

------
kohanz
> _while others benefit from it?_

I might have felt a tinge of that until I tried being an entrepreneur myself.
Risk is a real thing.

~~~
mezod
I'm there, but it's tough :|

------
RightMillennial
No, I'd rather say "gear" than "pawn". If I can be well compensated to do what
I enjoy doing, why not? But then again I'm satisfied with my employment.

------
seem_2211
It's impossible to earn a high income without others taking a majority of what
you "bring in."

Engineers get hammered on equity by Founders, who get hammered by Venture
Capitalists, who hand over most of their profits to Institutional funds. It's
a food chain thing, but I don't think it's worth getting that upset about.

But then again, Institutional Funds put billions at risk to into Venture
Capital funds who put millions at risk to founders who take on more risk, and
a boat loat more stress and hassle (usually) than their employees.

Software salespeople need to bring in 4-5x of what they cost. Lawyers and
consultants are often tasked with bringing in 3-4x their cost. Why should
engineers be any different?

My granddad told me a story a few years ago about a guy who was a
fantastically successful oil trader. A buy the whole tanker oil trader kinda
guy. One of the reasons he'd been so successful was that he always tried to
leave a bit of margin there for other people.

I work as a recruiter. I know exactly how much money I've made my company and
how much I've personally been paid. I could make more by starting out on my
own. But I'd also take on a lot of hassle that I don't really want to bother
with at this point in my life. As long as it remains a fairly reasonable
trade, I'll be fine with it.

~~~
crimsonalucard
There should be an economic system set up where all workers get all the fruit
of their labor rather than a fraction of it. Communism failed, but there has
got to be another way.

~~~
ecolonsmak
employee ownership is a great way to organize.

[https://rady.ucsd.edu/centers/beyster/employee-
ownership/](https://rady.ucsd.edu/centers/beyster/employee-ownership/)

------
tasty_freeze
I get paid well to solve hard problems. If my employer paid me a wage similar
to what I'd earn working at Costco, I'd probably go work at Costco because the
hours are better and it wouldn't be mentally taxing, and I'd program in my
free time to keep intellectually stimulated.

But I do get paid well so I have nothing to complain about.

------
natalyarostova
I require money in exchange for my time, and money can be exchanged for goods
and services.

------
penguinlinux
in most all jobs you are a pawn. Sales people, doctors, lawyers.

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draw_down
For several months I've been in an extended period where I'm not even really
solving problems, certainly not complicated ones. It's worse.

