

Ask HN: What are your music prototyping solutions? - przemoc

I am not a professional musician (just played on a music keyboard for ~8 years till I stopped ~10 years ago), but sometimes various ideas flow into my mind or I want to quickly transcribe (at least some parts of) heard music. The problem is with figuring out and writing down the stuff (or staff if you prefer, but literal staff is not needed, anything easily convertible to SMF or music XML would be fine). And doing it efficiently, obviously.<p>I lack sound recognition skill (cannot immediately reconstruct heard or thought sounds, have to find them out using trial and error method, which sometimes becomes more effective if I am getting into vibe of currently analyzed tune).<p>I have my old Casio CTK-750, but:<p>1. It's not next to my PC, so I have to relocate (it would be acceptable if not the other things below).<p>2. It has memory only for 2 songs.
(There are though many tracks, so I can abuse them going with single idea per track and muting all others during recording/playing. Cumbersome.)<p>3. After recording I still lack the score and next day I can easily forget how I played it before.<p>There is a MIDI stuff. Haven't tried it recently, because my current desktop doesn't have gameport or I don't have the cable anymore or both (don't remember now the exact state, sounds ridiculous, I know). But I tried it many years ago on my AWE32 (that was really expensive and huge back then!) and Cakewalk was getting some more notes than I played (some very high and very low tones), so it was practically useless. Never figured out whether it was bad cable (didn't have the second one), bad keyboard (didn't have the second one) or bad gameport (didn't have second sound one). Maybe I should buy MIDI-on-USB, cable, and recheck it nowadays.<p>Ad rem. I tried some applications (haven't checked them thoroughly, though) like musescore, noteedit, nted, rosegarden, milky tracker, (modplug on Windows also) and possibly some others I don't remember their names now, but apparently no one has sane recording/playing via keyboard feature. The best what you can get are shortcuts for notes, like C for C, D for D, etc. which are possibly ok for slow editing/tuning purposes, but far from being even acceptable for "live performances". Having some music keyboard mode is so obvious that I am amazed not seeing it anywhere.<p>Well, there is VMPK, but it doesn't have good enough way of mapping tones (tones -&#62; keys instead the other way, which means you cannot have same tones on two different keys) and I failed at seeing/hearing its output in musescore, i.e. did set the connection via qjackctl's connect dialog box, but musescore doesn't have any way to choose the input provided to it in IO tab. Musescore is not the best target actually, as it is ok only for storing notes alone, without timestamp and duration information.<p>(I have voluntary preemptable Linux kernel right now in my debian squeeze, so it's suboptimal for MIDI stuff and audio in general, but still have to say that latency I get in VMPK is extremely awfully annoying.)<p>So tell me HN, what are your music prototyping solutions, suggestions, tips, favorite apps, etc.?<p><i>My first AskHN thing here, hopefully it's not too long and I'll get some insightful comments.</i>
======
bane
Digital trackers.

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tracker_(music_software)>

I have yet to find a faster way from idea to music. It's clunky to get into
until you spend some time to learn the idea and build up a collection of music
and wrap your brain around the entire concept, but it's a few decades old a
very mature concept with tens of thousands of works created with this method.

Here's a site that streams tracked music 24-7
<http://www.scenemusic.net/demovibes/>

Some of it is quite good (thought the quality obviously ranges quite a bit
though both talent and technology).

If you want to see the music with a visual production try
<http://demoscene.tv/>

I've been working with a piece of software called MadTracker 2 for a while,
but I'm about to transition to Renoise (MadTracker 2 is long since a dead
project) which is available for Windows, OS X and Linux and is about as
professional as a piece of software has any right being.

<http://www.renoise.com/>

In a rush I can crank a reasonable tune out in a few hours. I've heard of at
least one major artist cranking out an entire album (vocals and all) in less
than a week.

<http://hunz.com.au/>

Most of the modern trackers will let you render individual tracks to file for
final downmixing.

Note: These _are_ most definitely not intended for live performance, though a
few folks have used them for that purpose.

~~~
przemoc
Thanks for your comment. I am aware of digital trackers (I mentioned modplug),
was even using FastTracker 2 back in the old days (but not for a long time). I
like scene music, especially old school chip tunes.

I heard about renoise before. I'll maybe try its trial version, but I doubt
trackers are really what I am looking for as they lack proper recording
feature (at least the ones I tried). Check also the comment in my new thread.

~~~
bane
Yeah, it seems like you might have more of a desire for live performance
tools. Maybe even something simple like this:

<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=miMM8R1CSM8>

<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=25VGdNU3nrU>

which can produce really great results.

And once you're happy with the results, "record" the individual parts with a
midi tool so you have the notes down someplace for recall later.

~~~
przemoc
Thanks for your comment. Maybe you're right. These YT examples are really
nice. Even though I can hum or sign accurately (thus this has clear advantage
over playing), I am more inclined in getting track of my melodies early (i.e.
what I am actually crafting, is it F#, G or G# scale, etc.), so I don't think
voice-way is the right solution (maybe I'm wrong, as it would be more
efficient assuming good recording and looping devices, still it's not that
good for every kind of music), but definitely interesting one.

------
jodoherty
I use a little Akai LPK25 keyboard (fits perfectly right above my computer
keyboard, so I just reach up a little to play) with seq24 for
editing/recording MIDI notes and zynaddsubfx as a synthesizer on Linux. It's a
straightforward, simple, and clean setup. Notes in seq24 are displayed in
piano-roll format, and you can compose looping patterns that you can then
combine into song patterns. I'll also use an electric guitar with jack-rack to
mess around with ideas on and record stuff in Ardour with, or even tab it out
in tuxguitar, since I can find my way around the notes on a fretboard a bit
more easily sometimes.

I also bought a license for Renoise, which I use occasionally, but trackers
are too involved for my tastes and I prefer a piano roll layout for editing
notes. It does allow you to use your computer keyboard as a music keyboard
though, and the layout isn't bad, but you're still better off using a small
MIDI keyboard.

I used to use Cubase (got the full version in a box somewhere), but it's
overkill for an amateur like me, and I don't even have a Windows PC or a Mac
to run it on anymore. Maybe someday I'll buy a Macbook Pro or something.

<http://www.akaipro.com/lpk25>

<http://www.filter24.org/seq24/>

<http://zynaddsubfx.sourceforge.net/>

<http://www.renoise.com/>

~~~
przemoc
Didn't know there is such USB keyboard (but I felt that there should be
something like that). Thanks for informing me about it and apps I didn't know
before.

Two octaves (actually almost three) I could easily get on computer keyboard
(not that convenient, I know), so it doesn't look that useful to me, also
because 2 octaves are not enough for most of two-hand plays.

So Renoise has computer keyboard as music keyboard mode? Good to know. I'll
have to check it whether it works as I would like it too.

~~~
jodoherty
No problem, but I would encourage you to reconsider your train of thought.

The LPK25 is limited, but it's definitely more convenient for getting down
ideas than using a computer keyboard, since once you have it set as the MIDI
input device in an application, you can hit keys and play notes without having
to worry about what application is in focus and what its keyboard shortcuts
are. Computer keyboards also only recognize up to a certain number of keys
being held down simultaneously (since they're designed with the assumption
that you won't be pressing five keys in the same row at the same time) and
don't provide velocity or intensity information, but you always get note
intensity and velocity MIDI information out of a MIDI keyboard. As for the
limited number of keys, you can shift the keyboard down or up entire octaves
with the buttons on the left and then record the left and right hand parts
separately in two passes. You can also look at it and see what notes you're
pressing instead of having to translate between a computer keyboard and a
musical keyboard.

So I'd say it's quite useful compared to having just a computer keyboard, and
the small size means you're that much more likely to have it with your
computer, even if your computer is a laptop and you travel a lot. Your
argument that it only does what you could still do with a computer keyboard is
like saying the virtual keyboard on an iPad is just as good as using a
bluetooth keyboard, since they offer the same keys and basic functionality...
so a bluetooth keyboard for the iPad is useless. But you'll probably still
want to use that bluetooth keyboard with the iPad if you're doing any amount
of writing, because it just makes it easier to type (and it frees up the
screen space for what you're writing).

If you have the desk space though, Behringer makes some cheap gear that
usually works fine, so go with a larger keyboard and check out the Behringer
UMX610, which should work perfectly with Linux:

[http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/672870-REG/Behringer_U...](http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/672870-REG/Behringer_UMX610_UMX610_USB_MIDI_Keyboard.html)

You could even use such a keyboard for actual performances if you absolutely
had to, but it probably doesn't play as nicely as your Casio, and you should
probably figure out your latency problems in Linux. (To be honest, if I were
doing anything music related on an everyday basis, I'd much rather use Cubase
on a Mac. Linux software is a disheveled mess of parts that can fit together
quite nicely, but can also cause a lot of hairpulling too.)

Finally, you probably don't want to hear this, but if you have time and energy
for ear training practice, relative pitch recognition would make your life a
lot easier and solve most of your problems. Then if you can work out what the
first few notes of your song are and you figure out the key, you can figure
out how to write down the rest pretty easily from there. Then you could use
some of the score editing software, trackers, or anything else that people
mentioned in the other replies.

As it is now, it sounds like most of your musical fluency is trapped away in
the muscle memory of your hands, and that's the real source of your current
problem, since it's the same as being able to speak and listen, maybe even
read a bit, but not write anything.

Anyway, just something to consider. Good luck, and I hope you find something
that works for you.

~~~
przemoc
Thank you for this insightful comment.

You're right, music keyboard is obviously better than computer keyboard in all
ways. I didn't want to argue opposite statement.

Behringer UMX610 looks more interesting, but it's a bit more expensive. Having
my old casio, which has nowadays only one really annoying thing (less annoying
is broken volume potentiometer, so only one speaker works above ~10% level) -
clappy sound (don't know any good term for it) of its keys - I don't have real
need for new keyboard (I don't intend to compose being outside of the home,
but OTOH having small keyboard next to keyboard would be possibly convenient).
It's still unknown about this casio's MIDI capabilities, i.e. whether they are
working correctly. First thing I have to do in spare time is get some MIDI on
USB interface cable (like Roland UM-1G, which is already more than 100PLN) and
test my keyboard on it after years to see whether old problems are still here.

As I stated in response to troyal7562, I have some relative pitch recognition
skill (not accurate) that combined with the knowledge of key indeed gives good
results, but not good enough for real-time transcription-through-play.

Well, I can write, but not off-hand, that's the point. Also via playing you
can develop and change your ideas further, so I wouldn't call this additional
stage as trapping. Remember I am talking about prototyping, not crafting final
version of some music piece. That is also why having it in my computer, when I
can (or should be able to) easily alter, improve and combine my musical
sketches, is that important. But surely having perfect sound recognition skill
would ease all of my efforts.

------
seagaia
If you absolutely can't spend money on anything, I'd go with PxTone for bare-
bones prototyping. It runs on Wine. It is point-and-click tracker.

<http://buzinkai.net/PXTone/tutorial/>

It's an incredibly lightweight tracker or whatever, and comes with preloaded
instruments (basic chiptune-ish sounds). But when you're prototyping a song or
trying to get an idea down really fast, you shouldn't worry too much about the
instruments or anything. PxTone is strong in this regard, it's VERY FAST and
intuitive to just jot down a melody.

I find PxTone is great if I think of some short melody and want it sort of
stored so I can come back to it later and maybe work with it on something more
involved than PxTone.

Of course it's mostly useful for the prototyping stage. Any sort of recording
with real instruments, or effects more than just
panning/volume/reverb/echo/overdrive/portamento, you'll want to look
elsewhere.

~~~
przemoc
Thanks for your comment. Point-and-click is not what I am looking for (at
least for input stage), but I'll look at it later. It's not that I cannot
spend some money, but I would like to definitely avoid additional expenses
(see also comment in my new thread).

------
jdietrich
Logic or Digital Performer on the mac, Cubase on PC. If you're very score-
centric, Sibelius. Buy a quality audio interface with MIDI ports. Not cheap,
but the only way to get genuinely high quality MIDI and score editing.

Trackers are a crutch for people without a musical education and simply aren't
sophisticated enough. They represent music mechanically, using an abstraction
that collapses in the face of something as mundane as triplets. There are no
good sequencers on Linux. Lilypond does excellent engraving, but there's no
Free software that'll prepare a score without endless hair pulling.

~~~
conner_bw
There's a delay column in Renoise that make triplets trivial.

The Lua API and users writing scripts, such as this "Fractional Notes
Generator" makes it even more trivial:

[http://www.renoise.com/board/index.php?/topic/28248-allow-
fl...](http://www.renoise.com/board/index.php?/topic/28248-allow-float-values-
in-edit-step-for-quick-triplets/page__p__221850#entry221850)

I thought this was hacker news were people actually knew how to code?
Musically educated in what? Last time I checked we're not troubadours
performing occitan lyric poetry in the high middle ages.

Trackers aren't for everyone, some things are clearly not reasonable to do in
them (recording a live band comes to mind), but the "musical education" and
"crutch" comment is without foundation.

~~~
jdietrich
Musically educated in what? Music. Not genre-based electronic music, but music
in it's broadest sense - from bebop to Bulgarian folk music, from Stravinsky
to Stockhausen, from Abba to Zappa.

I write music for sync. I need things like timecode support, which is a weird
niche thing, but also things like tempo and time signature maps, which aren't.

In a proper sequencer, I can play in a phrase, then instantly quantise it to
any time signature and any tuplet I want. Septuplets in 9/8 are no more
difficult than straight eights in 4/4. The grid in my piano roll display will
conform to my chosen timing, as will the output of my score editor. I can draw
in a series of gradual tempo changes to an automation channel, or extract
tempo and groove from an audio or MIDI track to use as a tempo map. If that
sounds like an exotic requirement, try arranging a piece in a tracker based
around drums recorded without a click, or using a tracker to arrange a version
of, say, "Anyone Who Had A Heart" by Burt Bacharach.

Trackers represent music in a way that is alien to people who can read
classical notation and who have studied composition. Someone with a modicum of
training can follow an orchestral score with dozens of parts, scanning the
score in real time and picking out the harmonic progression and main melodic
theme. That's simply not possible with a tracker, either using numerical or
piano roll display. Not an issue if you make primitive electronic music, a
cataclysmic failure if you deal with big, complicated arrangements.

Trackers are a toy. They're intolerably crude if you're a professional user
who has deadlines to meet, but also intolerably crude if you're merely an
amateur with musical training. Tracker users don't know what they're missing,
overwhelmingly because they can't read or write music, have little
understanding of musical theory and no experience of playing in ensemble with
trained musicians.

~~~
conner_bw
Again, you are confusing "right tool for the job" with your silly prejudices.

Take me for example, I know Stockhausen because I studied him in my fine arts
undergraduate degree in Electroacoustic studies at university.

To recap, the question was somewhere along the lines of "how do you prototype
music, I have a casio?" not "how do you write a serialist score for a chamber
ensemble?"

Even then, The Linux Laptop Orchestra based in the music department at Virgina
Tech uses trackers. Of course this isn't the score to Star Wars and a house in
Malibu; it is very left field stuff, but it can't be denied that this is
serious contemporary practice for anyone in the know.

Regards,

~~~
przemoc
Thank you conner_bw and jdietrich for covering topic a bit more deeply here. I
am open-minded and I like discussions from various PoV. Even if I am only a
guy with casio (somehow it sounded like a really lame thing, is it? :>), I
happily get to know more about professional-like stuff, as I am perfectionist
deep in my heart. But I also almost always try to find the most effective way
of what I am doing (and often this finding part takes more time than doing the
job, oh well...), like writing scripts for one-time task that could be done
quicker by hand, etc.

------
przemoc
Thank you all for great comments. I think I should add a few more words here.

In my case playing music (and recently composing) is just a way to break from
daily activities or relax in spare time. I used to do it years ago and somehow
this year I started doing it again. This is why I do not intend on spending
money on it (like > 22$/30EUR/100PLN), just want to use whatever best free
tools are out there.

By best in terms of music prototyping I mean the most effective ones:

\- giving the possibility to quickly store my musical ideas, like by
supporting input from playing on a computer keyboard (by "live performances",
mind I used scare quotes also in starting message, I meant rather playing for
recording purposes than for amusing of others than me in the room),

\- allowing me to easily rearrange, tune and mix my crafted pieces.

Once again, literal score is not the purpose of music prototyping, but some
way of saving the music sketches, overwriting and enhancing them, etc., just
working on them (but doing it in a efficient manner) seems crucial to me, as
otherwise I'll lost idea before writing it down or won't have enough time to
tediously input it in clunky tracker/sequencer/staff editor/whatever.

No comment explicitly addressed my wish for rapid prototyping/transcribing
(don't get me wrong, I am not complaining here just stating the fact), but
I've seen some new app names that I'll try to test later and check how they
fit (if at all) in my idea of composing/music recognition workflow.

Maybe I'll have to prototype my own tool for music prototyping one day. :)

------
symphonyapp
If you have an iPad, check out: <http://symphonypro.net>.

The app allows you to create and edit sheet music. There's a built in keyboard
and a real-time recording feature. If you have a Core MIDI compatible device,
you connect it to your iPad and input notes in real time from that as well.

Disclaimer: I'm one of the developers

~~~
przemoc
Thanks for slipping in. I don't have any Apple product.

(But I'll possibly buy some MacBook if there will be TrackPoint in it - sadly
I feel it is quite unlikely to happen. I know there are others like me,
though.)

------
meatsock
the problem is finding a software sequencer you can get comfortable with. pick
one and stick with it, and use it every day. don't give up on a track till
you've spent an hour on it, as there's no better practice than finessing an
idea you're not sold on to improvement (this will come in handy if you end up
doing it for money). with an apt combination of keyboard shortcuts and smart
combinations of presets, no amount of software will hold back your ideas from
fruition. i use FL studio in this manner to great effect, and can have a 5
minute song assembled to some structure in about 30 minutes. from there it's a
matter of EQ and balancing.

another option may be to use something like audiomulch or PD to create the
sort of work-flow environment you need to sit down and start sketching.

~~~
przemoc
Thank you for a good tip. Being good in anything usually requires spending
some time on it. I'll possibly invest more time if I found that particular
sequencer/tool that works as I would like it to and its workflow is convenient
for me.

I'll check audiomulch later. What is PD?

~~~
meatsock
PD is pure data, which is an open source clone of the (surprisingly) closed
source MAX/MSP. <http://puredata.info/>

it's basically an open-ended programming environment for music/data/midi --
it's got a steep learning curve but disclaimers like that have no place on a
site for hackers =)

~~~
przemoc
Whoa, another interesting stuff. Thanks for explanation!

------
troyal7562
The best solution, of course, is to develop this "sound recognition skill".
While the amount of work it takes get there is significant, the benefits far
exceed the mere ability to transcribe what is in your head. Most people think
that the ability is magic, so that whe you develop this ability, people will
think you are some kind of musical genius. It is similar to how the computer
illiterate respond to programmers.

I use pen and paper. Anything else is an (understanably neccesary) shortcut. I
feel for the trees, but I havent found an iPad app that allows you to simply
write on a representation of staff paper yet.

~~~
przemoc
Thank you for comment. Developing such skill would be awesome. I have some
grasp of intervals (far from perfect), but not scales, so I have to find the
first tone to properly continue. When I find the scale, it's easier to follow
the melody, but I can never go error-free on first play real-time.

Do you have any tips about learning this skill efficiently, useful resources,
etc.? If I could at least improve in a short time, I would consider investing
my time into it.

I understand (a bit) your feel about writing on staff paper. But I was never
able to quickly do it and preserve acceptable look of my scores.

------
wanorris
Another vote for the Akai LPK25 -- it's superportable, so it's easy either to
keep right by your computer, or even to throw into a laptop bag and have along
with you.

Personally I like Sonar (the current generation Cakewalk) on Windows as a
software solution. I can't speak to Linux solutions.

I also keep some composition apps on my Android phone. If you really want to
capture musical ideas wherever you are, a phone is perfect. I like Caustic and
ULoops for Android, and I've also tried NanoStudio on an iPod Touch and found
it quite nice.

~~~
przemoc
Thanks for your comment. I don't have a smartphone, so I have to skip mobile
solutions. :)

------
ltamake
I have a Yamaha DGX-500 that I bought from a bloke at my office. It works
great and is compatible with FL Studio. Saves about 5 songs, though.

~~~
przemoc
Thanks for your comment. I know that some recent keyboards have memory for lot
of songs, LCDs displaying recorded music and such, also USB port to store it
on pendrive. It should be quite productive.

------
bphogan
Ableton Live with the Session view is how I make my music. In fact, here's a
stupid rough video of how I do my stuff.

<http://www.bphogan.com/files/videos/livesession.mov>

~~~
przemoc
Thanks for commenting. Ableton Live is undoubtedly a great software. AFAIK
it's not suited for rapid prototyping.

Here is some nice stuff. Just in case somebody haven't seen it yet.

Making of "The Prodigy - Voodoo People" in Ableton by Jim Pavloff

<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ZYLp5uX9Yw>

~~~
bphogan
Did you watch the clip I posted tho? Using the session view, I can prototype
really quickly by recording simple loops. I used to use lots of other tools,
but I am so much faster with the session view. I can record things in parts
and then move them around to see if I like what I'm hearing. Very organic.

~~~
przemoc
Sorry, I did not, as I am short on time recently. I have done it just now in
speeded up way and indeed, session view looks quite interesting and useful for
music prototyping (assuming you already clearly know what to play, doesn't
look equally good for trial and error method).

Thank you for being stubborn and convincing me about AL usefulness. I won't
spend 350EUR on it, though.

~~~
bphogan
No problem. And depending on the USB midi input controller you get, you might
be able to get a free LE (limited edition) copy with it.

~~~
przemoc
Good to know. Thanks for this remark, but USB MIDI controller with Ableton LE
won't be cheap either. :)

Also quoting wikipedia:

 _As of version 6, Ableton also offers a stripped-down version of Live
targeted at the non-professional market. It has limitations on the number of
audio channels and effects and does not feature some of the synchronization
(MIDI Clock, ReWire) utilities the full version has to offer. The current Live
LE version is 8.1.4.

As part of the Able10 celebrations, Ableton introduced Live Intro as an
effective replacement to LE. Registered users of Live LE can now receive a
free upgrade to Live Intro. The current version is 8.2.2._

------
bfung
checkout an earlier thread! <http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3089010>

~~~
przemoc
Thanks for reference, In fact it inspired me to create this submission, as
subject is not the same. (You missed my comment there, right? :>)

------
dminor14
Guitar, voice, imagination. Next I write a few notes and lyrics on paper. Then
I start to record for real...

~~~
przemoc
Thanks for sharing your story.

------
gallerytungsten
Chord chart on paper. Play, improvise, revise.

------
MostAwesomeDude
I _am_ a professional musician. For getting things typeset, I use Lilypond,
and the two tools I use are vim and rumor. (<https://launchpad.net/rumor>)
Very simple, but it gets the job done.

For live performance, I have a USB keyboard and several voices in Csound
(<http://www.csounds.com/>) and run the whole thing through a keyboard amp.
Cheap and effective.

~~~
przemoc
Thank you for comment. Did not hear about rumor before. I'll have to
definitely check this out, even though it's not suited for prototyping. I'll
test Csound too.

