
Secret TPP Talks Continue as the Deal Grows More Controversial - ghosh
https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2015/07/secret-tpp-talks-continue-hawaii-deal-grows-more-controversial
======
smutticus
For a harbinger of what's to come, look into what's happening in Romania with
their Rosia Montana gold mine.

[http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2013-09-11/paulson-
ba...](http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2013-09-11/paulson-backed-
gabriel-threatens-4-billion-of-claims-in-romania)
[http://www.miningfacts.org/Blog/Mining-News/Canadian-
Miner-P...](http://www.miningfacts.org/Blog/Mining-News/Canadian-Miner-
Prepared-to-Lose-$1-5-Billion-Investment/)

Basically a Canadian company will most likely sue the Romanian government for
refusing to allow an open pit gold mine. They won't do this in a Romanian
court.

Just like we saw with Greece, sovereign nations are no longer all that
sovereign. Treaties like TPP, and TTIP will further remove decision making
capabilities from sovereign states. It's kinda crazy.

~~~
blackbagboys
My understanding of this case is that the mining company signed a contract
with the government for development of this mining project, and there is now
the possibility that the parliament will at the eleventh hour break the terms
of the agreement. I don't see why the government should be exempt from making
restitution in cases where it breaks contracts.

------
nindalf
To get the viewpoint of people championing this agreement, I recommend reading
this article by the Economist[1] where they say "for all its flaws, the
biggest trade deal in years is good news for the world"

[1] - [http://www.economist.com/news/finance-and-
economics/21659716...](http://www.economist.com/news/finance-and-
economics/21659716-all-its-flaws-biggest-trade-deal-years-good-news-world)

For the record, I think the TPP is pernicious for all the reasons pointed out
by the EFF.

~~~
jsmeaton
I'm confused by this statement in the article you linked, and I've heard it
before:

> the Trans-Pacific Partnership (TPP), is the most important free-trade
> agreement in years

How does "29 chapters of dense rules and hundreds of tariff lines " == "free
trade"? Free trade is meant to be open, without restriction, and free. Some of
the conditions being reported are anything but.

~~~
martincmartin
It's lowering barriers to trade, making it easier for goods made in one
country to be sold in another. One way it does that is by harmonizing
regulations, so you don't need to make different versions for different
countries, or pay for lawyers to explain compliance laws separately for each
country.

~~~
idonthaveaname
Only part of that results in lower barriers to trade. Mostly that reads like
"follow these rules, update your processes and factories to these other
specifications" \- significant barriers themselves, just upstream from the
actual trade.

More significant is that there is little transparency and a, seemingly, active
avoidance of public discourse about the rule-setting. The rule-setting is
where the power lies, and that's what most of the objection is about.

------
lemming
This article [1] linked from the OP contains the following fact: the pro-TPP
lobby spent _$135 million_ in the second quarter of 2015.

I mean, I know lobbying costs money, but where can that much money possibly
go?

[1] [http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/07/23/us-trade-tpp-
lobby...](http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/07/23/us-trade-tpp-lobbying-
idUSKCN0PX2JO20150723)

~~~
tptacek
Read the Reuters article carefully: that's all the money spent by all the
members of the "US Business Coalition for TPP" on _all lobbying_ , it's in the
same order of magnitude as it was prior to TPP, and even the surge in spending
now isn't all TPP. For instance, Boeing doubled their lobbying --- to lobby
against the proposed elimination of the Export-Import Bank.

~~~
lemming
Sure, but even if it's not all TPP related - that is a truckload of money. I
have no idea what you even spend that amount of money on - it would buy a lot
of champagne and hookers for representatives.

~~~
tptacek
Not only is it not all TPP related, it is _mostly not_ TPP related. They cited
the aggregate lobbying of all the (gigantic) members of a trade coalition, and
that statistic is misleading.

The "champagne and hookers" snark is silly. Where do hundreds of millions of
dollars in lobbying fees go? Approximately the same place as the hundreds of
millions of dollars of donations to giant institutional charities go:

* Salaries for formal employees of the organization

* Contractor fees for copywriting, advertising, event planning, legal

* Giant advertising and promotional campaigns

* Fundraising

* Direct political donations

* PAC donations

Just replace "food banks" and "medical care" with "report writing" and you're
close.

Lobbying isn't a great thing, and it interacts very badly with PACs, but it
certainly isn't millions of dollars in strippers. Mostly, it's a scam to skim
money off the political process and into the pockets of lobbyists and their
firms.

~~~
snowwrestler
Slight correction: lobbying spending numbers do not include donations to
candidates or PACs. Federal law prohibts organizations from giving money to
either.

Organizations can pay the expenses for a "captive" PAC (usually in the form of
hosting it within their headquarters with all the costs that implies), but
that spending is also excluded from reported lobbying numbers.

Other than that, you are spot on. Once people realize that lobbying
expenditures include salaries and media buys, it's not hard to see how the
total gets into many millions of dollars.

------
at-fates-hands
Every time I hear about an awesome "free trade agreement", I need to look no
further than the disastrous NAFTA agreement:

 _" Such outcomes include a staggering $181 billion U.S. trade deficit with
NAFTA partners Mexico and Canada and the related loss of 1 million net U.S.
jobs under NAFTA, growing income inequality, displacement of more than one
million Mexican campesino farmers and a doubling of desperate immigration from
Mexico, and more than $360 million paid to corporations after "investor-state"
tribunal attacks on, and rollbacks of, domestic public interest policies."_

and

 _" For instance, we track the specific promises made by U.S. corporations
like GE, Chrysler and Caterpillar to create specific numbers of American jobs
if NAFTA was approved, and reveal government data showing that instead, they
fired U.S. workers and moved operations to Mexico."_

and

 _" The data also show how post-NAFTA trade and investment trends have
contributed to middle-class pay cuts, which in turn contributed to growing
income inequality;"_

source: [http://www.huffingtonpost.com/lori-wallach/nafta-
at-20-one-m...](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/lori-wallach/nafta-at-20-one-
million-u_b_4550207.html)

This too was being touted as a great free trade agreement for the US and its
economy and the exact opposite happened. I can only assume the outcome for the
TPP will be similar.

------
derriz
Well here goes my tiny store of karma points but as a contrarian I can't
resist going against the comfortable consensus that the TPP and TIPP (which is
of more relevance to me as a European) are evil and sinister.

Some observations:

These negotiations (at least the TTIP ones) are not being conducted by cigar
chomping cartoon evil tycoons. A friend I know is involved and the guy is a
very modestly paid civil servant. It's mostly boring and technical bureacratic
work.

There are very good reasons to conduct discussions like this in private.
Despite the impression the EFF article gives, the biggest losers will be
commercial special interests not consumers. Consumers don't form groups to
spend millions to lobby politicians to enact laws blocking the import of
foreign goods and services - these laws and regulations were campaigned for
and paid for by politically connected local commercial interests. The secrecy
is required to prevent these special interests from using their power to
derail the negotiations. Consider what would happen if public minutes were
published while say discussing the US bio-ethenol subsidies? Massive political
pressure would be exerted on the US negotiating team from the corn producing
states effectively making negotiation impossible. Other countries party to the
discussion would face the same impossible pressures.

Finally I don't believe that the ISDS is some evil anti-democratic instrument
to allow corporations to subvert the local laws. In fact most countries have
had similar instruments for decades as part of bilateral deals. The sole
purpose is to prevent governments specifically targetting foreign companies
with extra rules while not applying the same restrictions on politically
connected local enterprises. I believe an individual should be able to defend
themselves from capricious government behavior through the legal system. I
don't see why businesses shouldn't have similar recourse.

------
andy_ppp
Why this needs to be done as one giant agreement seems crazy...

A relevant example where this could be a good thing; I'd love for tech
businesses in London to be as easy to invest in for Silicon Valley investors
as local tech companies - this would be amazing for investors, London startup
scene etc. - maybe it would require a special sort of company and also an easy
way to move a company to CA if needed.

There are loads of things in TTIP to hate but the above example would be a
better use of these bureaucrats time and something that would be easy to pass
and help lots of businesses grow!

~~~
steego
> Why this needs to be done as one giant agreement seems crazy...

If you want to circumvent debate and controversy, get all your buddies
together and write up an omnibus agreement or bill. Bundling different ideas
together makes it hard to talk about it, let alone debate it.

~~~
andy_ppp
I go back and forward on this; is it really this brazen or do the people
crafting TTIP and TPP really believe it'll make the world better. There must
be some involved who think it'll create jobs and money for everyone.

Maybe I'm just being overly optimistic - it certainly does look like what you
have said.

~~~
fnordfnordfnord
Obviously the people involved think it will make the world better for _some_
people.

~~~
andy_ppp
I suppose it comes back to this crazy religion (Ayn Rand et. al.) that looking
after yourself at the expense of others is the only way to make the world
stable. It's very convenient for people who are being selfish or making things
worse to agree with such crackpot ideas.

~~~
andy_ppp
Interesting down voting here, any reasons you care to give as to why you
disagree? I think the above is a pretty common belief from economics, right
wing thinking and Ayn Rand amoungst others.

Here is a reference:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rational_egoism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rational_egoism)

------
Erikun
Planet money had a fascinating podcast on how trade deals are made with the
example of NAFTA.
[http://www.npr.org/sections/money/2015/06/26/417851577/episo...](http://www.npr.org/sections/money/2015/06/26/417851577/episode-635-trade-
deal-confidential)

~~~
thieving_magpie
I came here to link it as well. It really explained to me why these
negotiations are secret, something that seemed a little sinister to me at
first glance.

------
te_chris
A perspective from New Zealand...
[https://dimpost.wordpress.com/2015/07/29/nuanced/](https://dimpost.wordpress.com/2015/07/29/nuanced/)

------
shmerl
I don't think current system (with fast track) is conductive for any partial
fixing. TPP should be scraped completely and USTR should taste their own
medicine. They don't want open negotiations and democratic oversight? They
shouldn't get any agreement altogether.

------
dkns
Can somebody ELI5 the whole TPP thing? As an European should I be concerned?
Does it matter only to countries involved?

~~~
ccvannorman
The TPP is a wholesome beneficial legislation, orchestrated by businesses
around the world to ensure their continued profits and ownership of capital
creation, such as copyright (it will be harder to share content online without
paying for it and DMCA youtube takedown style action will increase.)
Furthermore it allows corporations to legally prosecute governments for
getting in the way of their hard-earned profits or potential profits, for
example if you don't allow a gold mining corporation to mine your gold, you as
a country will be sued for the value of that gold.

I can't understand why everyone has got their panties in a bunch over this;
that small group of people with capital who makes and influences the laws will
do what they can to make sure they keep getting the capital for the future, so
that there is less transfer of wealth, which is necessary for a stable global
economy.. I personally am looking forwards to when governments are abolished
entirely and corporations simply write laws along side their company charters.
Whichever corporation has more money, has more rights to enforce their laws.

~~~
ionised
I hope this is sarcasm because otherwise it is ridiculously short-sighted and
naive.

~~~
ccvannorman
/s

~~~
ionised
Thank god.

------
chinathrow
Someone is getting ripped of deeply by this new agreements if they get done as
planned.

Hint: It's not large US coorporations.

It's us, the citiziens of the world.

~~~
sillygeese
That's exactly why they're working on it in secret.

------
SwimAway
Not sure why my comment was flagged but let's put it up again:

Corporate dictatorship recipe.

------
happyscrappy
Europe will pass it, blame America and the cycle will continue.

