
Scientists monitored brains replaying memories in real time - hhs
https://www.nih.gov/news-events/news-releases/scientists-monitored-brains-replaying-memories-real-time
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hirundo
"NIH researchers found that our brains may store memories in neuronal firing
patterns that are replayed fractions of a second before remembering."

So it's like a phonograph record. First the track is inscribed from the source
sound (storing a memory). Then the needle is placed in a groove (by some
triggering experience). Then the needle traverses the inscription, playing
back the recording (remembering). The brain just does it on a different
chemical medium than vinyl.

To me the most magical part is however the brain so deftly places the needle
in the right groove as a response to the triggering experience. That seems to
go beyond the phonograph metaphor.

~~~
aperrien
To me, it much more closely resembles a key-value retrieval system. I wonder
if we could learn anything about that by training an artificial neural net to
perform key-value storage?

~~~
PureParadigm
I think it's more like a graph with edges between associated bits of
information. It's easy to remember things in order, but random access is hard
unless you've established links for it. For example, if you memorized how to
play a song, each part links to the next but harder to ask someone what is the
n-th note in a song, even if they can play the song. It would explain why
making associations is a useful memory technique. Traversing this graph when
you aren't near what you're looking for can be hard ("it's on the tip of my
tongue").

~~~
grawprog
Not only that, but sometimes as happened to me recently with my own song, you
completely forget how to play it until you hear it and start playing it, then
suddenly you remember every little note and nuance you do did, but only while
you're playing it and good luck explaining to someone what you're doing even
as you're doing it.

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xwdv
I’ve always wondered if there is a way to stimulate a brain so that you could
replay a memory so vividly that it practically feels like you are there
reliving it again, like the way you might experience a dream but with more
clarity, almost like a form of time travel.

I remember reading about some experiment in a psychology class where an old
woman’s brain was probed and she was able to hear her highschool graduation
sonata clearly as if it was being played in the room.

There must be a way, there’s so many memories I’d like to revisit firsthand,
and people I’d like to see again that are no longer with us.

~~~
stanfordkid
Take some ketamine :) ... I'm stating this as someone with first hand
experience, so it may seem hand wavy and "made up": memories are visual and
those visuals directly trigger your nervous system which then responds and
often impacts the visual memory replay (often cutting it off or moving to
something else). Your nervous system is also constantly telling your visual
system what to "lookup". Ketamine dissociates the nervous system from visual
memory so you can sort of play the memory through like a spectator. I think
this is why it is so effective at treating things like PTSD -- the memories
are often so frightening or triggering to the nervous system that they cannot
be replayed, understood and integrated... but with Ketamine cutting off the
nervous system they can be understood without a panic attack or heart rate
shooting through the roof.

~~~
xwdv
How do I start?

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archi42
Something always worth remembering: The brain is not even as well understood
as we'd like to. For what it's worth, they might just be measuring something
that's analogous to a data bus. E.g. in PC terms: I can probe the data bus'
copper traces on a PCB, but that doesn't really tell me how the actual flash
memory silicone works.

(This doesn't make the research pointless though).

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emrehan
There is a theory on how memories are formed on neural networks through cycles
of firings by an artificial intelligence pioneer. I’ve searched for it again
to no avail.

Is there such a theory by Minsky?

~~~
Deeplybrassic
I think a memory is not just repetition, but collision of different paths that
lead to permanent memories

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jxcole
One of the most fascinating things this article claims is that apparently
these scientists were able to detect the firing of individual neurons. I have
briefly looked up some of the technologies involved in brain scanning before
and if this is true it would be greatly exceeding typical resolutions.

~~~
aurelian15
Well, it's not a scan, it's a recording from a micro-electrode array (MEA)
implanted directly into patient's brains who's skull was already opened for (I
guess) surgery.

Direct link to the article (with paywall):
[https://science.sciencemag.org/content/367/6482/1131](https://science.sciencemag.org/content/367/6482/1131)

DOI: 10.1126/science.aba0672

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overcast
What a timely article, as I JUST watched Brainstorm for the first time
tonight. The story is exactly this.

~~~
bookofjoe
Movies like "Brainstorm": "The Final Cut" "Strange Days" "Total Recall"
"Altered States" "Lawnmower Man" "Ex Machina" "The Thirteenth Floor" "The
Truman Show" "Inception" "Selfless" "Flatliners"

~~~
dpau
also wim wenders' "Until The End of the World"

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r_singh
This reminds me of a tangentially related episode of mind field, in which a
Japanese researcher is working on tech that one day could be able to read
people's dreams:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AgbeGFYluEA&vl=en](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AgbeGFYluEA&vl=en)

They basically ask people to look at different faces and measure their brain
waves while they're doing so and then later ask them to think of different
faces from the ones they saw and try to guess which one they were thinking of
at that time. Pretty cool.

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aiyodev
I think this is good place to remind everyone that your brain doesn't actually
remember events. It only remembers the last time you remembered it. Every time
you access a memory it's a lossy rewrite influenced by the emotions you are
currently feeling and other memories you associate with it.

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hnarn
Reminds me a little bit of the book "Recursion", which I can highly recommend
(4.2/5 on Goodreads).[1]

[1]:
[https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/42046112-recursion](https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/42046112-recursion)

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kibibu
Just to be clear, because the headline is a bit awkward - the scientists
didn't replay the memories.

There's no device to implant false memories or anything in this article.

~~~
Swizec
Luckily we can already implant false memories with advertising.

[https://www.wired.com/2011/05/ads-implant-false-
memories/](https://www.wired.com/2011/05/ads-implant-false-memories/)

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alfiedotwtf
How long until we see the headline “Summons allows court to monitor brains
replaying memories in real time”

~~~
r_singh
It will never be easy. This kind of tech will rely on the subjects thinking of
that memory. And you can always, well, choose not to. Or even corrupt the
memory deliberately by imagining things.

~~~
codegladiator
Isn't it very hard to "not think about it" when required to not think about it
?

~~~
samplatt
It's a skill that you can practice through meditation. But false-memories and
fabricated memories will shoot this idea down long before that stuff comes
into play. Memory is no where near reliable enough to be used as evidence like
that.

~~~
pbhjpbhj
Witness statements are used right now, and they're memory filtered through
people's perceptions and desires; potentially way worse.

~~~
samplatt
Correct - and they're now gradually having less and less reliability assigned
to them, which is good.

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eoikonomou
Anyone else reminded of Black Mirror's The Entire History of You
[[https://www.imdb.com/title/tt2089050/](https://www.imdb.com/title/tt2089050/)]?

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onetimemanytime
Finally, we may need those much talked about tin foil hats as we walk down the
street.

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justlexi93
This begs the question of why they used animals for 20 years.

~~~
grimwall
They will keep using animals because we know fuck all about how actually
brains work and you cannot slice human brains and probe them to see electrical
properties all the time since they are supply-constrained. This study is using
a information channel of very very high-level, top-down approach.

