
Japan eyes startup visa program - benguild
https://asia.nikkei.com/Politics-Economy/Policy-Politics/Japan-eyes-startup-visa-program-to-lure-foreign-businesses
======
laurieg
Japan's immigration system seems heavily set up to encourage young people to
come, work and then leave.

This startup visa is good for getting a toe-hold on Japan but only targets
people out of country. If you live in Japan already (so you might already
speak the language and have helpful local knowledge) there aren't any great
paths to starting a business without permanent residency. You can't start a
side business on a regular work visa. If you change your visa to manage the
business and the startup failed you are likely to be "directed to return to
your home country", losing all the residence time you have accrued so far.

I've been working as an engineer in Japanese startups for the past few years
and I'm kept on 1 year visa renewals. On a one year visa you can never apply
for permanent residency.

And on top of this, there is the 5 year "technical trainee" visa, which is a
means of getting manual labor in the country temporarily without having to
publicize it. All the people on this visa do not have university degrees so
after their 5 years are up they must return home and have no chance of
residence in Japan (outside of marriage).

Of course, Japan is free to set its own laws. If you look at them the message
is clear: "Japan wants your work and taxes, but it doesn't want you"

~~~
patio11
_You can 't start a side business on a regular work visa._

You know YC's question "How have you ever hacked a non-technical system?" This
is my answer to it. You _can_ start a side business on a regular work visa
_if_ the character of your business matches your status of residence _and_ you
don't intensify the business to the point where it is undeniable that it is a
_business_ as opposed to employment, e.g. by hiring full-time employees.

So, for example, if you were an engineer, and you happened to run a software
company on the side, you could convince the Ministry of Justice to accept the
argument that you were employed as an engineer by the 個人事業 (sole
proprietorship) of you, which (since you have an engineering status of
residence) doesn't require their pre-approval, and then (while establishing a
record of e.g. tax paying and similar) bootstrap that into a renewal of your
status of residence with yourself as the sponsor, and from there roll on to
either a management/investor status of residence or one of the other more
stable options.

For totally-not-a-lawyer gloss on this I'm happy to chat with anyone; you can
make reasonable assumptions as to why I am fairly confident that the MoJ can
be convinced to allow this.

~~~
ThrustVectoring
wait, as a non-citizen of Japan you are allowed to sponsor yourself for a work
visa? That sounds, uhh, strange.

~~~
rtpg
It's about ensuring you have money, not that you need an invite.

So if you're a freelancer with a bunch of active contracts they let you in.

~~~
kalleboo
Not let you in, but let you stay. Self-sponsoring only works on a renewal.

------
arvinder
>Based on the New Business Implementation Plan, Fukuoka City officials will
conduct a review on the progress of startup businesses founded by
entrepreneurs who utilized this system and received approval for his/her
Business Manager residential status. There will be three review sessions
during the six-month period, of which at least one session will be held either
at the entrepreneur’s place of business or residence. During the review
sessions, the business’s bank account, lease for the place of business, and
employment contracts may be reviewed. If progress is not satisfactory, Fukuoka
City may direct the entrepreneur to return to his/her home country.

Sounds like a lot of biannual headache.

~~~
nihonde
Try opening a business bank account in Japan. Or any bank account for that
matter. Be prepared to start every handwritten form over if you make even the
slightest error, and I hope you’ve been practicing your kanji. No credit cards
or foreign transfers until you’ve got a few years in your business. Capital
requirements. It’s a whole different ballgame, for better or worse.

~~~
paulsutter
Shinsei was easy to work with (for a business account), have English language
online banking and telephone support. Never had an issue with foreign
transfers.

Does help to have a Japanese friend who can help when opening the account,
etc, and it’s important to find accounting and legal help that speak English.

~~~
hardwaresofton
Shinsei is the most foreigner friendly bank in Tokyo, bar none. They're known
for it, and they make their services convenient -- go there.

Initially you might have some trouble with the Address/Phone Number/Bank
Account requirements, because they're almost all required at nearly the exact
same time, making some weird pseudo requirement stalemate but here's what you
do:

1\. Get a place to live (likely through some online agency before you get to
japan -- you're gonna pay a premium)

2\. Register with your local ward office, get your foreigner card, which will
have your address on the back and your face on the front

3\. Get a phone at UQ Mobile (or whichever carrier will give you one, more
choices if you have a longer VISA), IIRC the only real hard requirement is a
credit card.

4\. Get a bank account (phone required)

NOTE: some places will even let you pay for your apartment with a credit card

Oh BTW when I did this, I avoided the requirement stalemate by staying with a
friend (thus I had a place to "live" at) when I arrived, and a phone number I
could use (friend's phone number). It is possible to secure a place to live
before you get to japan, there are sites that cater to foreigners for this
purpose and will get you set up almost completely before you arrive so you
just sign some paperwork when you arrive and have a place to live.

~~~
glandium
IIRC, you now get the "foreigner card" during immigration. You still have to
register at the local ward, though.

~~~
timr
You get the card at the airport, but it's useless without the stamp. Can
confirm that the dependency graph stated by the parent is a (the?) correct way
to navigate the system. The only thing I'd modify is that you can save money
by bringing your own phone, and getting a phone+data SIM card from Bic, which
you can set up on a recurring plan with a foreign credit card.

~~~
hardwaresofton
Yeah, it's been so long that I actually forgot the proper (I think) way to go
through it, and that it was actualy easier for me because I had
contacts/friends willing to help.

The problem with the phone+data sim thing is that you need an actual callable
phone number, a lot of the time. Also, you can tell what numbers are used for
in Japan by how they start:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telephone_numbers_in_Japan#Non...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telephone_numbers_in_Japan#Non-
geographic_area_codes) , and some places will be sticklers about it.

One sad/funny thing is that I actually needed a phone number to get a place to
live as well, but actually my agent just used their own temporarily (literally
right in front of the leasing agent, and they didn't care). I get the feeling
that if you get a place from abroad they'll overlook that/work that out
somehow, even if you don't have an agent that was as
understanding/nice/flexible as mine.

~~~
timr
Oh, if you have a phone+SIM card from Bic, you get a number. You need a non-
tourist visa for that one, though...which means you need the stamped gaijin
card.

I never had issues with anyone being snobby about the number, but I was in a
bigger city, so maybe I had it easy.

(My sad/funny story was that in order to _cancel_ the recurring phone payment,
I needed to receive a text message to the phone number I was cancelling. But I
had left the country by that point, and the SIM didn't work for international
SMS. So I was screwed. I just told my credit card company to reject the
recurring billing, and thus I'm probably blackballed from all future SIM-card
purchasing in Japan.)

~~~
redler
Could you have mailed the SIM back to a friend in Japan?

~~~
timr
Probably, but I'd have to explain the whole thing and do international postage
and whatnot, and it wasn't worth the hassle.

------
jacquesm
Same story as always: you take the risk, invest your time and break up your
life. If it works you are welcome to stay. If it doesn't work you get cut
loose and you likely will take years to recover whereas the other side hasn't
risked a thing.

These kind of propositions only make sense if you have nothing to lose.

~~~
rtpg
If your passport isn't from the right country you might have nothing to lose.

If you have decided to move to some other country, and are looking for the
place with the least legal headaches for immigration, _and have a college
degree_, then Japan is probably the best on that metric.

You don't have the uncertainty of the green card lottery (the permanent
residency requirements are pretty well defined), no employer-based indentured
servitude (you can change jobs easily on any visa), and if you are not doing
unconventional jobs there's not much issue.

There's of course the cultural difficulties, and the initial difficulty
finding an employer for initial sponsorship (though these sorts of visas are
trying to make this easier). But the country has a high quality of life and
you can carve out your own bubble without having the fear of getting your life
uprooted due to legal issues.

~~~
qaq
This pretty much describes all countries aside from US

~~~
rtpg
My understanding is that it's not trivial to get a visa in the EU as well, due
to it being Shengen Zone stuff.

Even for simple trips, my Chinese friends in particular have to jump through
hoops.

I also remember a scandal in France a while back when the gov't decided it
didn't like foreign students staying to work in France after graduating, so
changed rules to make it harder for people to stay afterwards.

~~~
hocuspocus
> My understanding is that it's not trivial to get a visa in the EU as well,
> due to it being Shengen Zone stuff.

Work permits for non-EU immigrants are issued at the national level and have
very little to do with Schengen. Requirements vary quite a bit across Europe.

------
davidw
I don't think Italy is a great place to do business, but it's a good place to
live in many ways. They've got something similar that might be of interest to
the right person
[http://italiastartupvisa.mise.gov.it/#ISVhome](http://italiastartupvisa.mise.gov.it/#ISVhome)

~~~
graeme
That website is compeltrly broken on mobile. Is there another link with a
summary of the program.

(The link jumps erratically, and completely breaks the back button)

~~~
davidw
Uh, you want to live in Italy, you'd better get used to shitty government web
sites ;-)

------
neya
Just curious, anyone knows what's the advantage of starting up in Japan over
say, Singapore? I know Singapore is predominantly English-speaking, you get
all kinds of food and the laws are friendly to startups as well.

If I'm an English speaker in Japan, there is a huge language barrier, on top
of which there are also other minor nuances to be paid attention to such as:
high rent (depends on your area), finding Non-Japanese food and so forth.

Anyone with insights into the contrasts between both these countries, would
love to hear :)

~~~
jsemrau
I have lived and created startups in Japan and Singapore. Japan is the much
larger mature market compared to Singapore. If you can penetrate it you have
good business for decades. But the barriers of entry are really really high.
Both markets are expensive to live, but Singapore still has a huge influx on
really cheap labor (~500 SGD per month) and cheaper corporate services (legal,
accounting, shared co-working, etc)

~~~
stealthcat
Slightly off topic, what about startup, business and market in Malaysia?

I am from Malaysia, but now studying in Japan. Not sure if it worth it to
struggle starting a business or working in Japan after graduating.

------
jswizzy
Good luck with that. I would advise against it having been stationed in Japan,
in Yokosuka, on the first Nuclear vessel forward deployed ever. It's an
awesome place for tourists but it will never be a place that anyone who is not
100% Japanese can call home. You will always be an outside over there.

~~~
fiblye
Of course soldiers are considered outsiders. I doubt people stationed in Korea
or Germany will be going on about how they felt like true locals either.

The biggest hurdle is the language barrier. People treat you like kids when
they think you're just a typical tourist, but once you're past that hurdle, it
quickly gets to the, "How can you not know this basic thing? All of us
Japanese know it" point. At that point, you're the one reminding them that
you're a foreigner.

~~~
rdl
Actually the US Forces-Germany relationship is pretty strong, and during the
Cold War was even stronger. There were a lot of the permanent party at places
like Landstuhl who were fairly embedded in off post activities.

------
ransom1538
Slightly off topic. But this Japanese program sounds totally dressing and
covered in tape. If you work remote and are completely self sufficient is
there any country that will just let you live there?

~~~
pentae
Thailand, for sure.

~~~
beagle3
It was never officially approved in Thailand, and now it's officially illegal:
[https://www.bangkokpost.com/learning/work/693976/visa-
runs-n...](https://www.bangkokpost.com/learning/work/693976/visa-runs-now-
illegal-for-tourists-say-police) \- I know people are still doing it, and I
know of very public enforcement for a very short time (probably done to make a
statement).

YMMV.

------
Keyframe
Wait, what are the benefits apart from 'we let you stay here and do your
business and here are some lawyers and maybe a good word here and there'? This
is absurd.

~~~
whatyoucantsay
It's safe. There are fewer homicides in the entire country of 125 million than
just the city of Chicago each year.

~~~
ekianjo
Yes, very safe indeed. It can be quite fun when you are in your 20s, if you
live in big urban centers (night life, etc.) - but it's also an impenetrable
society. Not being Japanese will place barriers around you in many aspects of
the society, sooner or later (even if you are fluent in the language). It's
important to be aware of this.

~~~
kotrunga
Do you mind expanding on this? I’m curious about what barriers will be put up,
as I’ve thought about moving there.

~~~
ekianjo
I can elaborate - contact me via PM.

------
matt4077
> During the review sessions, the business’s bank account, lease for the place
> of business, and employment contracts may be reviewed. If progress is not
> satisfactory, Fukuoka City may direct the entrepreneur to return to his/her
> home country.

Thanks, but I didn't move out of my parents' house just to recreate the
experience in Japan...

------
cdancette
France has the same thing, valid for 4 years.
[http://visa.lafrenchtech.com/](http://visa.lafrenchtech.com/)

~~~
titanix2
Yes but why would you ever want to move there to create a startup?

Not only you have to deal with enterprise related problems such as fiscal
instability (rules changes almost every years, see for example how the auto-
entrepreneur status changed over time), the URSSAF, a bureaucratic and slow
administration but you have also to deal with a lot of issues on a personal
level such as insecurity, terrorism, frequent riots and strikes, the
administration (yes, again), ...

No really, as a French and as someone who tried a minimal thing with the
easiest available status, I don’t understand how my country can be attractive.
I would rather deal with the Japanese administration, which asks for
ridiculous amount of documents but does its job. And a country with working
services (transports, post) is also a big plus.

~~~
ArmandGrillet
Did you ever work in another country? I work in Germany with colleagues from
many different countries, and our country does not suck.

The French post is one of the best in the World, train delays are the same in
France as in Germany (shall we compare with the situation in the US?), the
administration is a PITA but they actually try to help instead of killing you
(+ the number of organisms to help startups in France is very high).

Terrorism in France is a minimal cause of deaths compared to what happens in
the US due to firearms. The fiscal instability is getting better with our
current government (we know what is coming, not like in the US), the number of
riots is low but they are highly mediatized.

I am honestly surprised by this comment, would have expected it from someone
not living in France. Compared to the UK and USA, France is a safer place to
create your startup right now if you are a foreigner.

The language is a pain and there are other alternatives (Canada, Singapore,
Hong Kong, Germany) but if you want a country in the Western World that tries
to help you instead of making everything possible to have you back at the
border, France is attractive.

PS: If you ask « Why is it attractive? »: Paris is full of
investors/incubators, young people do speak English, people in the startup
environment interact a lot and you will find mates to work and speak about
your issues easily. Paris has two major airports (compared to Germany with old
airports in Berlin and a too small one in Hamburg) + train stations to go
everywhere (i.e. London, Bordeaux, Lyon).

~~~
titanix2
> Did you ever work in another country?

Yes. I'm currently working in another country and I've been studying in Japan
for a year. So I have few points of comparison.

Terrorism is not just a question of numbers. The problem is more about how the
government handle the matter. When you read things like terrorists getting
welfare[1] for years, the fact they can keep the nationality[2] and returnees
jihadists from Syria will be welcomed[3], in addition to no state reaction
after Charlie (which lead to the Bataclan event), no real proactive mesures
against 15 000 people suspected of terrorism acquaintance or support[4], the
problem is not current terrorism, it is the future. Because almost nothing is
done against it and you can except to see the trend of multiples attacks per
year (or month, Europe wise) to continue for years.

Should I mention that if you ever got red-handed in a terrorist plot you're
only sentenced to maximum 10 years of prison[6], that can be further reduced
for "good behavior"? It's even creating more of them actually.[7] And that
hosting them is not even considered prosecutable?[8] And let's not dive in
rabbit hole of the hundreds of salafist mosques that can preach hate against
the French in total impunity.

It also have impact on daily life. Multiples subway stations are closed for
hours everyday because of suspicious bags, the train station like Gare du Nord
are closed and rushed by the police on a regular basis.

Anyway I could simply have started my post with a question, like you did: did
you ever had a friend got shot in a terror attack?

I guess not, otherwise you would not just speak about numbers.

[1] [https://francais.rt.com/international/44967-2-millions-
deuro...](https://francais.rt.com/international/44967-2-millions-deuros-
fraude-allocations-djihadistes) [2] [http://www.lefigaro.fr/politique/le-
scan/2016/03/30/25001-20...](http://www.lefigaro.fr/politique/le-
scan/2016/03/30/25001-20160330ARTFIG00296-decheance-de-nationalite-un-abandon-
en-six-actes.php) [3] [http://www.lefigaro.fr/actualite-
france/2017/11/09/01016-201...](http://www.lefigaro.fr/actualite-
france/2017/11/09/01016-20171109ARTFIG00310-retour-de-djihadistes-macron-
prone-le-cas-par-cas-pour-les-femmes-et-les-enfants.php) [4]
[https://www.valeursactuelles.com/politique/15-000-fiches-
s-p...](https://www.valeursactuelles.com/politique/15-000-fiches-s-pour-
radicalisation-85661) [5]
[https://www.lexpress.fr/actualite/societe/justice/filiere-
dj...](https://www.lexpress.fr/actualite/societe/justice/filiere-djihadiste-
de-strasbourg-7-a-9-ans-de-prison-en-appel-pour-les-prevenus_1906331.html) [6]
[https://www.lexpress.fr/actualite/societe/justice/filiere-
dj...](https://www.lexpress.fr/actualite/societe/justice/filiere-djihadiste-
de-strasbourg-7-a-9-ans-de-prison-en-appel-pour-les-prevenus_1906331.html) [7]
[http://www.lefigaro.fr/flash-
actu/2017/03/30/97001-20170330F...](http://www.lefigaro.fr/flash-
actu/2017/03/30/97001-20170330FILWWW00068-les-prisons-principales-sources-de-
radicalisation.php) [8] [http://www.lemonde.fr/attaques-a-
paris/article/2016/05/26/ja...](http://www.lemonde.fr/attaques-a-
paris/article/2016/05/26/jawad-le-logeur-devrait-echapper-aux-poursuites-pour-
terrorisme_4926700_4809495.html)

~~~
supergarfield
[1] is from Russia Today, so I'll abstain from commenting

[2] is true, but it should be noted that this is standard procedure in the
West, since citizenship is considered one the most inalienable rights (in
Germany, loss of citizenship only occurs through taking another one; in the
US, it's only possible for naturalized citizens to lose their citizenship if
they commit terrorism within 5 years of being naturalized).

[3] the article does not say that djihadis will be welcomed.

[4] is standard procedure in the West. You can't detain people who don't even
stand accused, unless you're the US and have absolutely no concern about
egregiously violating your constitution (and human rights). And tracking
15,000 people is beyond what any police force can do.

[5][6] it is generally not a good idea to comment on criminal trials, since
you have access to very little compared to the judges and jury. It's also
unclear that detention is a good solution to the problem anyways.

[7] is perfectly correct.

[8] it is considered prosecutable, this person is on trial. Also see [6], and
again, unless you have a very good reason to think the accused actually knew
he was hosting terrorists (which the judges, who have access to far more
information that you do, don't), there's nothing visibly wrong about that
trial.

Finally,

> Anyway I could simply have started my post with a question, like you did:
> did you ever had a friend got shot in a terror attack? > > I guess not,
> otherwise you would not just speak about numbers.

It's not with strong feelings that you'll make good policy. It's very sad that
people die, but it's no good reason to drop all common sense.

------
throwaway31293
Why on earth would anyone move to Japan ?

You get treated like shit, get paid shit, do shitty work, and work under
morons whose only qualification is the ability to speak Japanese and bullshit
in English... and this for Machine Learning. I can't imagine the things one
has to put up with for more vanilla jobs.

Moving to Tokyo must be one of the biggest regrets of my life. I'd look for
Singapore or India even, compared to 'grorious Nippon'.

~~~
jpatokal
Sounds like your employer is pretty shitty (and to be fair, Japan has more
than its fair share of shitty employers), but that's an attribute of your
company, not Japan itself. And if you're coming over on a startup visa, it's
your company and you set the rules.

All that said, it's hard to people with no connection to Japan opting to start
up in Japan -- as patio11 notes, doing so without fluent Japanese is playing
life in hard mode.

------
pkaye
Is a 1 year visa long enough to do anything serious?

~~~
ajdlinux
It's probably long enough to get a company to the point where the company can
sponsor you for a longer term visa.

~~~
agibsonccc
Can confirm this is true. It was easy enough for me to sponsor myself after
the company was setup.

In my case my first hire helped us set it up, and then he handed director over
to me. You obviously have to do this with someone you trust. Would not
recommend this for every situation.

Edit: I obviously hit a nerve here somewhere. I stand by my position here. Get
the right legal help. I can say it was a pain to find but once I did the
process was smooth. It's not impossible like people make it out to be. Any
process has bumps.

Don't be crazy and do it yourself though.

------
hardwaresofton
As an "entrepreneur" (closer to a freelancer/independent contractor, self
employed through a company I created) that's currently living in Japan, a few
notes:

\- Things get a lot easier when a Japanese person is involved.

\- Paperwork pain will be real, hire someone else to do it. Japan is almost
completely about the _appearance_ of propriety -- getting everything filled
out properly is 90% of the difficulty.

\- Hire a cheap japanese accountant, at least for the first year. Once you
have your feet under you, then look into how to use the efiling system (most
accountants just do this for you anyway, japan has an absurd amount of their
taxes filed electronically, despite their paper-heavy seeming nature).
([https://asia.nikkei.com/Politics-Economy/Policy-
Politics/Jap...](https://asia.nikkei.com/Politics-Economy/Policy-
Politics/Japan-to-make-electronic-tax-filing-mandatory-for-businesses))

\- Initial capital requirements are a thing, you can actually get away with a
fairly small amount though, like 10/20k USD -- this is impossible in countries
like the US where you need millions to even get in the H1-B LOTTERY (so even
if you get in, you still maybe don't win). Japan is surprisingly lax, and I
think they've been this way -- it's not even a recent change.

\- You will never be completely trusted as a foreigner in Japan, nor will you
ever completely fit in.

\- Japan is VERY easy to live in, even for someone who doesn't speak Japanese.
While this is true, you should strive to speak japanese if you live in Japan
-- your experience will be severely limited otherwise.

\- There's a monthly HN meeting here that's not half bad
([https://hntokyo.doorkeeper.jp/events/upcoming](https://hntokyo.doorkeeper.jp/events/upcoming))

\- Japan's tech skill is low. While I expect people on HN to know a little
more, the mainstream media often only catches a whiff of japan at the peak of
it's technical prowess (robots in Kyoto, interesting breakthroughs, etc), but
the vast majority of businesses here are WOEFULLY inefficient and have not
embraced technology and the current rush to build good technical knowledge.
Sending a fax for business purpose (like for example your startup sending a
fax to another company to get them to perform some function) is a thing that
people actually expect you to do here, while offering no API alternative or
anything.

\- The japanese market is NOT your home market, and not even some generic
"global/international market". Japan is 95%+ ethnic japanese, and this makes
it a complete different ballgame. If you've never been, learning how the
culture works (what makes a "salaryman" a "salaryman"). Funnily enough, if
you're a huge company (FB, Google, etc), then you actually CAN treat japan as
just another global/international market, because name recognition has already
pierced the japanese public and if the association is good
(fashionable/smart/innovative/trend-setting foreign brand) then they'll buy
what you're selling without much thought.

\- Fiber is very cheap and accessible, the intra-country connections are
blazing fast, but the connections to the outside world (like the USA) can be
slow.

\- The NHK fee is a thing, look it up and decide what you want to do before
you come over (I wish someone had told me).

\- Conglomerates are a huge thing in Japan, there are virtually no anti-trust
laws. Companies like Toyota or Yamaha get their fingers in almost everything
in Japan.

\- Building trust as a company in japan takes a long time, but is even easier
if you seem like a "japanese" company. I'm almost 100% sure that LINE has come
as far as it has because people thought it was a japanese company at the
beginning
([https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Line_(software)#History](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Line_\(software\)#History)).

\- This startup program looks most enticing for big established companies that
want to create a japanese entity. Why would a company need to do that? because
Japan's market is completely different, and often just making a branch office
won't work.

\- If you have 50K you can get into japan relatively scot-free by getting an
investor visa, and likely fast-tracking yourself to a status called "Highly
Skilled Professional" with the right job, which can lead to a "permanent
resident" visa (you never become a citizen if you're not japanese).

\- The most important thing I can tell you about japan is that it's greatest
strength is it's greatest weakness: _just about everyone is in the same
"lane"_. When you leave that lane, things get extremely difficult, but if you
stay in the lane, everything is smooth and easy. The lane includes things like
politeness-by-default, general honesty & propriety, but also includes overly-
intense-sometimes-blinding-nationalism (nationalism != patriotism).

There's a lot more I could say, but this list is plenty long (and random)
already.

Small plug for myself -- I'm the CTO of an exceptionally small
"startup"/consultancy: [https://gaisma.co.jp](https://gaisma.co.jp) (the
homepage is in japanese and pretty skint but we mostly write software). If
you've got questions about how I got to Japan or how it is, or you've got some
cool projects for me to undertake, feel free to get in touch (see my profile
or the gaisma page) vados@gaisma.co.jp

~~~
mikekchar
Another nitpick in an otherwise great post:

> You will never be completely trusted as a foreigner in Japan, nor will you
> ever completely fit in.

In my experience this is not really true (though if you read it literally,
then it is ;-) ). If you speak, read, write and act like a Japanese person,
then people will treat you as if you are Japanese. You will fit in. There are
racist people in Japan, but not any more than I've seen in any other country.
Japanese culture being what it is, you also won't really experience blatant
racism out in the open even if you meet racists.

Having said that, attitudes are _much_ different in the big city than the
countryside. When I go to Tokyo or Osaka, everyone initially expects me to be
a tourist. When I'm at home in rural Shizuoka, everyone expects that I live
there (because there aren't a lot of foreign tourists). But even in Tokyo or
Osaka after talking to someone for more than about 10 seconds they know that I
live permanently in Japan and treat me that way.

My Japanese is not even that good (although I am _very_ fluent in the areas
where I have fluency). I rarely make social mistakes any more and people treat
me just like they treat everyone else. I fit in here more than I fit in
anywhere else in the world.

If you have difficulty fitting in, then it's likely that you're missing some
nuance. Since nobody spells it out for you, it's definitely hard to figure
out, but not impossible. You just need to watch what other people do in that
situation and then start doing the same thing. The other main thing is to feel
OK about being Japanese -- which a lot of foreigners don't in my estimation.

~~~
hardwaresofton
I actually meant it literally -- you get extremely close to completely fitting
in but the problem is, as soon as you travel to a place you've never been to
or hang with people you've never met, you're back to step one and you feel
like you're on the outside again. This dissonance grates on me (and I think it
would on anyone), and there's no one you can really rightfully blame.

This is something that I feel the US really gets right -- once you're an
American citizen, you're an American and that's that -- no one generally asks
where you're from unless they're trying to get to know you. This might have
more to do with how America was formed, because it just _is_ a country made up
of a lot of people from other countries in relatively recent history, but it
makes sense that Japan can't really do this with how homogenous they are.

There's a ton of nuance, and mileage varies a ton from person to person in
their interpersonal interaction in any country which is why I was so literal
with what I said -- most people I've met would agree with the literal
statement.

~~~
mikekchar
Fair enough. I agree with the literal statement too, but I think it's a bit
misleading for people who don't get the context. For what it's worth, not very
many people ask me where I'm from and when they do I say Shizuoka. Nobody has
asked the obvious follow up question.

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toomanybeersies
To add to all the other posts saying that their country offers a similar visa,
New Zealand also offers one: [https://www.newzealandnow.govt.nz/investing-in-
nz/visas/entr...](https://www.newzealandnow.govt.nz/investing-in-
nz/visas/entrepreneur-visa)

------
sytelus
This is quite something because traditionally Japanese culture has been fairly
close to foreigners and probably for a good reason. Japanese people are likely
the most courteous and honest people in the world. You can leave your luggage
in the middle of the road and come back to find it still there. These folks
have little experience with foreigners and often even western culture would be
too harsh and rowdy for them. Some people are even afraid of impact of
foreigners coming down during Olympics.

Overall, this is interesting times when world's supposedly most open country
like USA is closing borders to foreign talent while supposedly most closed
country opens up their border for the same.

~~~
matt4077
That's quite a roundabout way of saying "foreigners are criminals"...

Seriously, I'm extremely deferential to the local customs when I'm abroad. But
I felt being pushed into a subway car during rush hour to be quite "harsh and
rowdy". Not to mentioned the drunk guys who spit in my faced an laughed.

~~~
kyleblarson
Over the last 15 years I've spent roughly 6 months in Japan, and have never
encountered anything other than respect and courtesy, especially if you make
an effort to speak the language and respect the cultural customs. I've spent
roughly the same amount of time in San Francisco in those years, and I've seen
hundreds of cars with shattered windows, dozens of people shitting on the
sidewalk, been harassed by crazy people on Market at least 10 times, almost
stepped on needles in parks and on sidewalks, etc.

~~~
GuiA
Consider that San Francisco is more of an extreme than Tokyo. I’ve lived in a
bunch of “world” cities, including London, Berlin, Paris, SF/Bay Area, Tokyo,
and the outlier there is more San Francisco than Tokyo. The only times (yes,
plural) I’ve ever had people die of gunshots on the pavement within 1 block of
my house in my life have been in the Bay Area.

------
DoodleBuggy
One year is pretty short.

I suspect Japan would have to change a lot of policy if they really wanted to
encourage immigrant driven startups to flourish and stay long term.

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bovermyer
Japan seems like a bad place to try and start a business, given what I've
heard about its bureaucracy and hostility towards immigrants.

Is my information correct, or do I need to explore this further?

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ekianjo
You don't make up for a missing ecosystem of investment by tweaking the visa
rules. Japan getting things wrong again.

~~~
Buge
What do you think they should do? This is at least a step in the right
direction, and could lead to more of an ecosystem developing.

~~~
ekianjo
Before anything Japan needs to be a lot more flexible in terms of culture,
rather than tweaking the rules to follow the trends. It's like the fool being
pointed the moon and looking at the finger.

Cultural changes will not occur in a short timeline, and even more so in Japan
where there is deference to age, experience and authority. On top of that in
recent years the country has closed itself even more so than let's say 10
years ago (you can see that in politics a lot as well) , and it's not really a
positive mindset to be in when you have the ambition of being a global player.

I still think Japan will change, but I expect them to change when they have
their back against the wall rather than being very proactive about it.

------
microcolonel
I wonder if this could be chained together with the working holiday visa.

------
yomly
As an aside, how are software engineer salaries in Japan?

~~~
jpatokal
Absurdly low by Valley standards: 6 million yen a year (~$53k) is normal,
senior folks might pull in 10m (~$88k).

~~~
Zakiazigazi
Additionally, in normal Japanese companies that 6M _is_ the senior salary with
starting salaries around the 3M~4M range. A 10M salary is basically a non-
starter right off the bat at most places, they'd basically laugh you out the
door with that, well, if you got a chance for an interview in the first place,
but you wouldn't.

That said, 10M is of course not impossible, but in my experience it is mostly
reserved for larger foreign companies, the banking sector or if you somehow
manage to get to an executive level. And maybe a handful of very specialized
very well funded companies.

------
known
Very rigid policy

------
alexasmyths
I can see why these things make sense to legislators and policymakers - but in
all pragmatic reality, I'm weary of it actually working.

1) Most startups fail. What happens then? What is the path? Many folks will
come from 2cnd-tier economic nations, and don't want to go back. It gets
complicated.

2) Investment requirements are easily provided for by people who want to 'buy
citizenship' and it's easy enough to hire a few friends/family members, park
their money in an account, and pull it out when they are done. The
'businessperson' visa was widely used as a backdoor to a passport in Canada.

It might make sense to make the visa commensurate on $X in a round A or
something, but then it all gets very complicated.

It might be just better to have a smart immigration policy to retain top
talent across the board in the first place.

It's really not 'founders' that make the business - it's 'the founders and
everyone else'.

~~~
ntsplnkv2
> 1) Most startups fail. What happens then? What is the path? Many folks will
> come from 2cnd-tier economic nations, and don't want to go back. It gets
> complicated.

Just take the risk and eat the cost. Sometimes investments don't work out. You
hope the ones that do make up for it.

------
EGreg
patio - any thoughts?

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nlh
I eagerly await @patio11’s thoughts on all of this. I imagine he’s got >0 to
say...

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partycoder
Good luck finding a place to rent.

~~~
agibsonccc
Silicon valley -> Tokyo expat here. It took me < 2 weeks. This process is hard
but not as nightmarish as people who don't live in the country reading
articles make it sound.

Just like anything, there's right and wrong ways to do it. If you do it the
traditional way with a japanese speaking landlord who mistrust foreigners, yes
it can be hard. That is a significant portion of the market.

One thing I will say, there are real estate companies that actually cater to
foreigners.

This has been my landlord for a year and I just renewed:
[http://tokyoeasyrent.com/en/](http://tokyoeasyrent.com/en/)

There are other companies like this in the space. Look on places like
gaijinpot for more information like this:
[https://gaijinpot.com/](https://gaijinpot.com/)

It's just like any real estate market, do your research beforehand.

Where I will admit it can be harder is when you want to procure a larger
house. They don't tend to ask too many questions for studios (which should be
enough for entrepreneurs family aside).

That being said, if you do have family, spend your time finding right place
and ask for referrals.

Japan has its downsides but it's by far the best place I have ever lived
(especially compared to SF) both food wise and price wise.

~~~
gozur88
I've read getting a place to stay has become easier, but I still hear people
complain about getting a bank account without help from an employer.

~~~
Larrikin
Shinsei was extremely easy to get a back account with. I applied online and
sent in a few documents and was all setup.

~~~
agibsonccc
Great info thanks! My experience comes from MUFG. Other data points are
helpful.

