

Why Palm’s WebOS ‘Media Sync’ iTunes Integration Can’t Be Legit - tptacek
http://daringfireball.net/2009/06/webos_itunes_integration

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mdasen
I remember when Real was advertising their iPod Compatible DRM. About 4 months
later, Apple upgraded the iPod firmware and that was the end of that - and
Real offered no upgrade path to make your music iPod compatible other than
ripping to CD and back.

This will be a mistake that will make their product look unreliable. It's one
thing to hook into a system where the company is doing nothing to help you,
but also isn't actively trying to hinder you. Apple will hinder them.

There's even one easy way. The way that Palm is doing this is by having the
Pre tell iTunes that it's an iPod that doesn't udnerstand FairPlay DRM and,
therefore, iTunes should sync all of the non-DRM'd music with the Pre.
However, there is no iPod or iPhone that doesn't understand FairPlay. So,
Apple can simply update iTunes to eliminate that backdoor. Yeah, then Palm can
just throw away the tracks it can't play. And then Apple can fool them some
more.

I'm not saying it's righteous. Apple likes you to be 100% in their ecosystem
and not play so nicely with others. However, it's hard to reverse-engineer a
protocol that can be changed at any time. Sure, you can break DVDs, but that's
because you can't replace every DVD player in the world that's already been
sold. Apple can break compatibility with software updates.

Palm has created what looks like the best iPhone competitor to date. Clean,
polished, and very Apple-like. And this just isn't a smart plan. It's a hack
and won't be a reliable one and that will make the device look second-rate in
a way that it doesn't have to.

~~~
jrockway
_It's a hack and won't be a reliable one and that will make the device look
second-rate in a way that it doesn't have to._

If Apple wants to break this, they will also have to break all of their own
(unpatched) iPods. I doubt they will do that, so this "hack" will probably end
up working pretty well.

~~~
tptacek
That's only true if (a) Palm did a perfect job of making their device
indistinguishable from an iPod _in the configuration presented to iTunes_ AND
(b) Apple never saw this coming and didn't landmine the iPod/iTunes link.

It's definitely a tightrope walk. This exact arms race has occurred many times
in the past, and I can't think of a single instance where the adversary didn't
make at least one mistake.

~~~
wvenable
This is an arms race that Palm can win, though. If Apple finds a way to detect
it, Palm can release an update to make it work again. At some point, Palm will
end up with an implementation indistinguishable in every way from an existing
iPod. If they've already done that, then the game is already over. If they
haven't, it might take only one more iteration.

~~~
statictype
Pushing out iTunes updates may be faster and more efficient than pushing out
Pre updates (esp since those may be affecting the firmware itself).

Still, if Palm is advertising this as a feature of the Pre, then they must be
fairly confident that it won't break.

~~~
mullr
Updating the Pre may actually be easier. The thing's a cell phone, so it's
always connected. If they planned for it, they could have isolated the iPod
facade code and made it easily updatable over the air.

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jrockway
I am confused as to how masquerading as an iPod is not legit. It's effective,
and legal under US law:

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galoob_v._Nintendo>

(This might not be the case I am looking for. I am thinking of one where the
use of the trademarked word "Nintendo" was required to interoperate with some
Nintendo system. The court ruled, IIRC, that this was legal even though
Nintendo was Nintendo's trademark. I think identifying as an iPod is the same
sort of situation. It would be illegal to sell the Pre labeled as an iPod, but
it _is_ legal to lie to iTunes in order to interoperate with it.)

~~~
tptacek
Really good point. Totally forgot about Galoob.

<http://cr.yp.to/softwarelaw.html>

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jsz0
It can totally be legit.

1) Is pretending to be a different device ID copyright infringement? Probably
not? Patent infringement? Probably not? Violation of the DMCA? Since it's not
even touching encrypted tracks.... Probably not?

2) iPod syncing has been fairly well documented and reversed engineered on
Linux clients. It's entirely possible Palm used this code to protect their
former Apple engineers.

Legally if Apple wants to fight this they are begging for anti-trust
litigation IMO. If not in the US, definitely in the EU. They should be smart
and just accept they got out played by Palm on this.

~~~
tptacek
He's using the word "legit" where maybe the word "sanctioned" is closer to his
intent.

Also, even if Apple is destined to lose the suit, there's enough grey area
here that they could surely get it into court. There's a legal backstory here
with ex-iPod developers on the Pre team, and so there's a ton of discovery
Apple could throw Palm's way. And if Palm took any shortcuts at all, that
could be the end of Palm.

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joezydeco
I'm in agreement with the article, but I think it's more of a way to leverage
a bit more publicity for the Pre. It can go both ways:

1) Apple does nothing and Pre makes it a selling point, or

2) Apple sues them and Palm makes themselves the victim, crying for equal
rights for all media devices under iTunes. Palm gets publicity as the
underdog, and Apple is the big bad Death Star.

At best, Palm capitalizes on the anti-Apple sentiment out there. At
worst...the Pre loses syncing?

~~~
artsrc
3) Apple changes iTunes so it does not work.

~~~
joezydeco
Right, and just like in #2 all the existing Pre users cry all over the
internet claiming Apple took away their right to enjoy their music using
iTunes.

I'm also wondering if enough complaining could grab the attention of the
government.

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kylec
A lot of the discussion seems to surround the way the Pre interfaces with
iTunes, mainly in regard to how Apple could and might update their software to
close the hole, under the assumption that Apple actively wants to block the
Pre.

However, it's possible that Apple doesn't mind that the Pre interfaces with
iTunes. After all, the iTunes music store has been facing recent pressure from
Amazon and other companies trying to tap into the online music/video market,
and customers are more likely to choose or stay with iTunes if they don't feel
as though they're locked into the Apple ecosystem.

Also, there's the non-insignificant legal matter of leveraging their music
store business in an attempt to dominate the personal player market, which can
be considered anti-competitive. If Apple does decide to go down the path of
blocking devices access to customers iTunes libraries, they will definitely
have to tread carefully.

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lurkinggrue
I wonder how many pre owners will rely on that feature. I am buying one this
weekend (I hope) and I don't have iTunes on my pc. The iTunes experience on
windows is extremely annoying to me and will probably just use explorer to
move tracks I buy.

I think I would overall use Pandora and streaming more with that phone than as
a straight mp3 player.

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jhancock
either that or its legit. It is not impossible that Apple sees value in
allowing other devices to seamlessly sync content they sell. I guess in
another week we'll know either way.

~~~
tptacek
If you read the article, you observe that Pre's show up in iTunes as iPods.
Whatever Apple may think of being the center of the media sync ecosystem,
they're certainly not playing loose with their brand.

~~~
jonknee
Though to be fair I'm sure Palm would love for a Pre logo to come up, but
Apple doesn't make that possible. The only way it can work is by looking like
an iPod.

