

Sun-java6 packages removed soon from Debian/Ubuntu (and all other linux distros) - pythonist
http://sylvestre.ledru.info/blog/sylvestre/2011/08/26/sun_java6_packages_removed_from_debian_u

======
mindstab
People (including Ubuntu/Debian) seem to think that openJDK is just a bit
slower and "less polished" but a fine drop in replacement. It has been my
experience there is lot's of stuff it still just doesn't support. The saddest
and most obvious was last time I was helping a first year comp sci student
they couldn't even do lab #1 in it since openjdk didn't have the fancy new
output writers. Sure you "don't need" them, and a bunch of other things it's
missing, but those missing things quickly add up and start spelling lots of
software that openJDK cannot run. And also first year comp sci students can't
even use it for school.

It is not a drop in replacement that is a bit slower, it is incomplete and I'm
tired of people not understanding this. There are things it cannot do and
software it cannot run.

~~~
yesimahuman
Can you elaborate on the missing output writer support? I had a lot of
software running with Lucene/Solr and my own code and never had an issue with
OpenJDK.

------
fmw
This will be a nuisance, because e.g. Clojure just works better with the Sun
Java packages. The Sun packages don't just have performance improvements, but
the Clojure devs seem to be actively targeting them. Even if this might lead
to improvements to the OpenJDK in the long term it is one hell of a nuisance
to have to go around the operating system package management scheme for Java.
The lesson is to actively mistrust Oracle and invest more time in solutions
that are independent from that company.

~~~
SkyMarshal
For Ubuntu I expect someone will create a PPA for Sun Java. I don't know if
there's anything similar for Redhat/Fedora/Cent but wherever it's possible, I
expect that will be the workaround of choice.

~~~
sciurus
This won't happen because the license for future Oracle Java releases won't
allow redistribution.

<http://robilad.livejournal.com/90792.html>

~~~
Jach
The way Gentoo handles this sort of thing (it does it with truecrypt) is
keeping the ebuild and so forth around, but when it comes time to fetch the
sources it will stop and tell you to go download the tar file from wherever
it's usually at and stick it in the dist folder.

------
bobf
Check out fpm if you're concerned about packaging issues -
<https://github.com/jordansissel/fpm>

It makes it incredibly easy to create an rpm/deb/etc. from a directory, rpm,
npm, gem, python module, etc.

Here's a BayLISA video about it: <http://vimeo.com/23940598>

~~~
lamby
I'm sure fpm works in a lot of cases but something tells me that it's not
straightforward to package a JVM..

~~~
sciurus
Agreed. I spent some time updating the jpackage project's nosrc RPMs to work
with newer versions of the JRE. There is a lot of complexity involved in
making what Oracle's JRE installer delivers integrate nicely with the rest of
the system.

------
yellowbkpk
Java-related Ubuntu/Debian packages (eclipse, openjdk, maven, ant, etc.) have
always been notoriously bad and slow to update. Installing sun-java6-jdk sure
made things easier but I guess I'll have to learn how to do it by hand now,
just like I do with all the other Java-related software I use on Ubuntu every
day.

~~~
FuzzyDunlop
I think Eclipse is still on 3.3 or something in the main repo! The whole java
thing's a bit of a mess from a 'casual user' perspective. Some packages won't
work without the sun-java6 ones. Some appear to be optimised for it. There's
at least one that I know of (but can't remember the name of at the mo - it's
an IDE though) that _refuses_ to install without them!

My naïve self would have thought to try and reduce the reliance on java, but
of course the cost (of any type) would outweigh any potential benefit.

~~~
smhinsey
You might be thinking of IntelliJ. It only works on the sun-java6 packages. Or
at least that was the case last time I set it up.

~~~
andor
IntelliJ works just fine with OpenJDK.

------
psadauskas
I'm sure somewhere RMS is saying "I told you so."

~~~
adbge

        You must be careful, however, because not every Java
        platform is free. Sun continues distributing an executable 
        Java platform which is nonfree, and other companies do so 
        too.
        
        The free environment for Java is called IcedTea; the 
        source code Sun freed is included in that. So that is the
        one you should use. Many GNU/Linux distributions come with
        IcedTea, but some include nonfree Java platforms.
        
        To reliably ensure your Java programs run fine in a free
        environment, you need to develop them using IcedTea.
        Theoretically the Java platforms should be compatible, but
        they are not compatible 100 percent.
    

<http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/java-trap.html>

------
budu3
Oracle can't seem to see how they're destroying the Java ecosystem. I hope
OpenJDK can keep it alive.

~~~
4ad
They're destroying the Java ecosystem for casual users and hobby developers,
and they do it on purpose. It doesn't affect enterprises and enterprise
software development.

It's sad, very sad, but it's the way Oracle works.

They're also destroying Solaris the same way.

------
scanr
This is unfortunate. We'd consistently get hit by a 100% CPU NIO bug by
OpenJDK on Ubuntu. OpenJDK also packages Rhino in the org.mozilla package
which makes it painful to use a different version of Rhino. It's definitely
not a drop in replacement.

------
naner
I often wondered if making the non-free stuff harder to use (Flash, Java, etc)
will push free software devs to improve the free stuff. It might be good for
Clojure and other Java projects to work towards having full control over their
platform and distribution instead of having to rely on Oracle.

~~~
riffraff
it could as well be that free software devs would have less motivation to
improve the free stuff, since there is no competition.

(In general, I don't think it has a big impact in either direction)

~~~
Peaker
It may cause some itches that were previously scratched by the non-free
solution, though.

------
emilsedgh
I wonder why Oracle changes that in the first place? Is it their attempt to
compete with Red Hat on RHEL? Basically, this means enterprise users will have
to move to Oracle's Unbreakable Linux. (Which, is ironically, based on RHEL)

------
g-garron
From what I've read here: <http://robilad.livejournal.com/90792.html>

"Linux users who prefer to use the thoroughly tested Oracle JDK 6 or Oracle
JDK 7 binaries over OpenJDK builds packaged in their Linux distributions of
choice can of course as usual simply get the gratis download at
<http://oracle.com/java> under the same terms as users on other platforms."

So it seems only like a license change, is that true?

~~~
sylvestre
Yes, it is "only" a license issue.

------
movingahead
When I tested Hadoop, the documentation suggested Sun JDK. Even Android asks
for the Sun JDK. <http://developer.android.com/sdk/requirements.html> I hope
all these communities take active effort in supporting OpenJDK henceforth.

------
based2
Will they do a librejava package ?

~~~
rbanffy
It's called OpenJDK.

------
ak217
The title is misleading. I don't see this changing anything for e.g. Gentoo.

------
riobard
Does anyone have issues with Scala running on OpenJDK?

~~~
copper
Well, it works for me (Arch64/OpenJDK), but then I haven't done much more than
work partway through the scala tutorials.

------
mattdeboard
I am irked by the author's response to a commenter. To paraphrase:

"Can't we just make an easy installer for Sun JDK?" "No, we're just going to
take this opportunity to make our own open source project better."

This sort of crap is why Linux is NOT ready for prime time.

~~~
fmw
Interesting conclusion. This is not like the Flash situation. Both JDK's are
acceptable on a technical level. The Sun one is just a bit faster and more
polished. In other words: this doesn't really affect the kind of end-users
that would be affected by a missing installer for Flash. Oracle is just
creating a nuisance for system administrators and developers in a market that
Linux is already dominating: servers. These users know how to install the
Oracle packages outside of the package system and understand the licensing
issue.

The problem here is not GNU/Linux, but Oracle playing politics (again). The
result is that they will continue to alienate developers, while their cash cow
won't suffer in the short term (hackers aren't responsible for the majority of
their business, business-type decision makers are). The decision to focus on
an open alternative instead of working around Oracle's antics is what makes
GNU/Linux what it is. GNU/Linux isn't just a practical piece of software, but
also an idea. That being said, focussing developer time on the OpenJDK seems
like a pragmatic move from a practical point of view as well, because
licensing reasons are not something you can just ignore when convenient
(without exposing your users to a possible lawsuit from Oracle).

~~~
sigzero
"The Sun one is just a bit faster and more polished."

And that is why it is the preferred one! For enterprise stuff you have to have
the "more polished" one.

~~~
fmw
That is what I meant when I said that Oracle is mostly creating a nuisance for
the server market. It forces sys admins and developers to jump through more
hoops to get the software running on their servers (as well as to keep it
updated in large deployments!). That is, those that really need it, because
I'm sure some people will just switch to the OpenJDK instead, because it isn't
unsuitable for production use either.

~~~
sylvestre
Please give me bug reports which shows that openjdk is not ready for
production. I will be interested to report them upstream.

~~~
Silhouette
The trouble with this sort of argument is that it's not always clear what the
bug is, only where it is.

For example, I work on browser-hosted user interfaces that sometimes rely on
Java applets. I don't know why an applet frequently doesn't work with IcedTea.
All I hear back via customers-of-clients is "Your interface doesn't work on
Linux".

The advice to uninstall IcedTea and replace it with Sun's (OK, Oracle's)
version is now as routine to our client's support people as telling someone
with Windows troubles to reboot was a few years ago. That answer has a 100%
success rate with these "bugs" so far, so I don't suppose those support staff
are going to change their policy any time soon.

As a software developer, I appreciate that this is not at all helpful to those
working on OpenJDK/IcedTea. However, as a guy whose rent is paid by what he
earns from his clients, I can't recommend that anyone use IcedTea for anything
until its well-deserved (in our experience) reputation for poor reliability is
addressed.

