
Solitary Confinement Is Cruel and All Too Common - zabramow
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/03/opinion/solitary-confinement-is-cruel-common-and-useless.html
======
AndrewKemendo
I wonder if I am an outlier in that I have a massive paranoia about being
thrown into jail randomly because of being in the wrong place at the wrong
time or cops executing a warrant on the wrong house.

Maybe it's because I am mixed race and grew up in a poor minority neighborhood
but it seems like the system is just eager and waiting to put everyone in it.
Kind of like a low grade terror all the time.

~~~
Raphmedia
To be honest, I'm afraid of travelling (to America even) and of leaving the
relative safety of Canada because of that.

I've heard so many stories about people ending up in jail in the USA or Mexico
or other countries from things that would be considered minor and them having
to fight their way out of it.

Missed bribe there, racist cops there, at least I'm safe home where the only
time I have to worry about the police is during protests.

~~~
wil421
Please don't use what you hear on the internet to base your option of the USA.
Spent my whole life here and I have never once had to bribe anyone period.

If you tried to bribe a cop you would be immediately thrown in jail.

That being said just be respectful and they will be respectful back. Its been
working for me for 29 years.

~~~
logfromblammo
Past performance is not indicative of future results.

I can't tell if police behavior is getting worse, or whether it was always
this bad, and it is just being caught on camera more often, thanks to
ubiquitous smartphones. But you can now go on YouTube and watch only new
videos of cops behaving badly every waking moment of your life. They shoot
dogs. They beat up handcuffed suspects. They arrest protesters for trespassing
on public property. They use pepper spray from 30 cm away against nonviolent
protesters. They make racist and sexist remarks. They shoot people in the back
and drop a weapon next to the body. They literally murder people, on camera,
and are not required to take any personal responsibility for it.

You should give a cop no more deference than you would ordinarily give to any
other person who could murder you on the spot and get a paid vacation as his
only "punishment". Be respectful, and they _probably_ won't kill you, or do a
roadside body cavity search, or arrest you for resisting arrest, or drag you
to multiple hospitals until they find a doctor willing to comply with their
ethically dubious and medically unnecessary requests, or shoot your dog, or
simply trash your car while performing a "search".

Be respectful, and they won't punish you for "contempt of cop". The Andy
Griffith cop no longer exists. He has been replaced by the "made man" cop.

Your best course of action now is to avoid all police contact altogether, even
while they are off duty. If they force you into contact, just _keep your mouth
shut_ and leave at your earliest safe opportunity.

My advice to foreigners is to not voluntarily visit the U.S. If you must come,
do not stray from the tourist-friendly areas, and try not to be outside of
your hotel or other lodgings between 11 PM and 5 AM local time. Write the
phone number for your nearest consulate in permanent marker on the inside of
your forearm, and make sure it stays legible for the duration of your trip.
Purchase a health insurance policy designed for international travelers to the
US before you arrive. If you find my advice dubious, read this:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sureshbhai_Patel](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sureshbhai_Patel)
.

~~~
hsod
From that link:

"Former police officer Eric Parker, who is accused of injuring Patel, was
fired from the Madison Police Department and charged with third-degree
assault. In March 2015, Parker was charged by the FBI with felony civil rights
abuse."

~~~
logfromblammo
More recent updates:

[http://www.al.com/news/huntsville/index.ssf/2015/02/why_wasn...](http://www.al.com/news/huntsville/index.ssf/2015/02/why_wasnt_madison_police_offic.html)

[http://www.al.com/news/index.ssf/2015/04/state_charges_delay...](http://www.al.com/news/index.ssf/2015/04/state_charges_delayed_against.html)

[http://whnt.com/2015/09/03/prosecution-rests-in-madison-
offi...](http://whnt.com/2015/09/03/prosecution-rests-in-madison-officers-
federal-trial/)

I find it somewhat curious that there is apparently no further news coverage
of Parker's misdemeanor assault trial after April 29th, which was the original
trial date. But I'm not curious enough to pay the _ten dollars_ Alabama
charges for online access to court records _per case_.

------
GordonS
> When the suit was filed in 2012, 500 of these inmates had been held for more
> than 10 years in tiny, windowless cells with virtually no human contact

That is just... horrifying... evil even.

 _10 years_ in solitary confinement... it's just unthinkable what that would
do to someone

~~~
mason240
If they are not in solitary confinement, they are being confined with other
people.

Would you want to be the confined with someone who has a history of being
violent with his cell mates?

~~~
jonknee
Considering the inmates in solitary are the ones suing because it is cruel I
think that answer is quite apparent. Yes, people would rather be with people
even if those people aren't perfect.

~~~
fizgig
Not necessarily.

If I was in prison and could make a case for _anything_ you can bet I'd be the
biggest pain in the ass (wrt legal wrangling) I possibly could. I mean, my
life is pretty much trashed already, right? No harm in seeing if you can get a
reduced time or even a settlement out of it.

That said, I can only imagine that enforced solitude would be pretty awful in
its own right.

~~~
jonknee
Solitary wouldn't be used as a punishment if people preferred it. It's nearly
universally feared.

------
esturk
"California will end indefinite solitary sentences. In all, the reforms are
expected to reduce the state’s solitary population, which is now over 2,800,
by more than half."

So they only ended indefinite solitary sentences. The definite sentences will
stay. The main issue this opinion column raises is that it took several
hundreds of inmates to form a class action for the change to take effective.
The settlement will mean that the issue isn't being ruled as 'cruel or unusual
punishment' so there's very little change that is making through the court
system in the country.

~~~
baldfat
What do they do with the supermax prisons where all the inmates are in
solitary confinement.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supermax_prison](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supermax_prison)

Just to be blown away read the population in one supermax in Colorado.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ADX_Florence#Notable_current_i...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ADX_Florence#Notable_current_inmates)

Scary.

~~~
robwilliams
What's scarier is who's inside the prison.

~~~
baldfat
That was my point sorry :)

------
pluma
Solitary confinement is a form of torture. But of course there is no torture
in the US. If the US does it, it can't be torture.

~~~
jes
Not saying you are wrong, but here's a different perspective:

[http://www.hermitary.com/solitude/nietzsche.html](http://www.hermitary.com/solitude/nietzsche.html)

~~~
steve-howard
From the conclusion:

>Nietzsche is a complex and provocative thinker, but he is a clear advocate of
the role of solitude in every level of human activity, from philosophical and
psychological to creative and societal.

Can't do any of those in solitary confinement. Solitude you choose is quite
different than being locked in a small room indefinitely.

------
Lawtonfogle
The 13th amendment allows for slavery if a person has been convicted of a
crime. It makes a lot of sense when you consider prison, especially America's
take on it, just a continuation of slavery.

~~~
necessity
Who do you consider should pay for the food and shelter of criminals? Their
victims - society? IMO themselves, through labor, forced if necessary. If
that's what you're talking about.

~~~
TazeTSchnitzel
Society should pay. Society has a responsibility to treat everyone - even the
lowest of the low - with basic dignity. Society has a responsibility to
reintegrate and readjust those it has failed.

~~~
ManFromUranus
People also have a responsibility to Society, they should not steal murder, or
any number of other criminal actions.

>Society has a responsibility to reintegrate and readjust those it has failed

Where is the accountability in your world? If I pistol whip somebody in the
face and take their wallet, then it sounds like (by your logic) that society
has failed that person, rather than that person failed to abide by the shared
social contract (to not engage in criminal behavior).

~~~
Lawtonfogle
>People also have a responsibility to Society, they should not steal murder,
or any number of other criminal actions.

How many are in prison for non-violent actions that harm none but themselves?

~~~
civilian
I like this point, but it doesn't really refute ManFromUranus' point. You're
talking past him.

When we create this nebulous idea of a patriarchal "society" that should guide
us in all things, it is easy to blame all of one's shortcomings on society.

"Hey, I didn't get into that college!" "Society has failed you, sorry."

"Hey, I didn't win that track meet!" "Sorry, society will do it's best to not
let you down in the future."

I think that if you ever try to cash in on what society owes you, you will
find yourself woefully disappointed.

------
ianstallings
Another thing not mentioned in the article is the fact that a lot of small
jails in the US have instituted a 23-hour lockdown policy, similar to super
max prisons. So now socializing and free time out of your cell is rare, and
lockup is the norm. I don't think they truly care too much about
rehabilitation, so much as they care about control. Just my humble opinion.

~~~
Loughla
When you have a building designed for 500 people, and hold 750 every day, you
do what you have to to avoid large-scale violence. I'm not saying I agree with
it, I'm just saying why it exists.

Prison overcrowding is a thing across the US.

~~~
ianstallings
Yes that's exactly why, and I do have empathy for the situation. That's why I
mentioned the control part. I don't mean that they would rather be oppressive
than help. What I really mean is they simply don't have time or money to worry
about what happens to these people, because just maintaining control is hard
enough. Just keeping the prisoners safe, while keeping yourself, and society
safe also, is a very tough job.

------
m0v_eax
Solitary confinement is a violation of international human rights and should
be treated accordingly.

------
imauld
The US is a country in which there are people and companies profiting off of
the imprisonment of human beings. So I wouldn't expect this to change
completely for the better for quite some time.

------
jordanpg
Does anyone seriously doubt that the use of prolonged solitary confinement
will be listed in the history books alongside other examples of state-
sponsored torture, slavery, and terrorism?

I'm not going to make any cliched remarks about karma here, but the United
States will have to deal with the consequences of its actions eventually.

Ironically, our own history books are filled with such redemption stories,
which forms the basis of the ludicrous exceptionalism that so infects rational
discourse about most anything these days.

------
morisy
For those looking for more, there's a lot of data and reporting on prison
privatization, and its impact on policies like solitary confinement, up here:

[https://www.muckrock.com/project/the-private-prison-
project-...](https://www.muckrock.com/project/the-private-prison-project-8/)

------
csn
Death sentence is considered harsher than imprisonment for life, right? It
includes paying for your crimes with all your time and your existance.

What if, in the future, it becomes possible to serve a x year sentence in a
chemically induced coma or such, in a way taking away your existance too
temporarily? Wouldn't that be a milder punishment because the element of
"serving time" is no longer there?

~~~
monochromatic
It seems like that would take away any rehabilitative effect prison might
have. Convicted of a crime, go to sleep, wake up ready to continue committing
crimes.

~~~
wfo
Except that prison doesn't rehabilitate at all: it does the opposite and makes
people worse. The rehabilitative theory of justice is essentially nonexistent
in the US, nobody even pretends. Instead it's about punishment/retribution and
"keeping them off the streets" during the period of their sentence. The coma
solves the second concern, but isn't cruel enough to solve the first so I
don't think you'll ever see it accepted in the US.

------
vinceguidry
I would be interested in seeing the Supreme Court's rationale that solitary
confinement constitutes cruel and unusual punishment. The four principles
guiding the court are as follows from Wikipedia:

The "essential predicate" is "that a punishment must not by its severity be
degrading to human dignity," especially torture.

"A severe punishment that is obviously inflicted in wholly arbitrary fashion."

"A severe punishment that is clearly and totally rejected throughout society."

"A severe punishment that is patently unnecessary."

The Eighth Amendment was copied virtually verbatim from the English Bill of
Rights and wasn't actually used to proclaim a particular punishment was
unconstitutional until 1910, 119 years after the American Bill of Rights was
ratified. Since then, the principles of "proportionality" and "evolving
standards of decency" are evolving to ascertain constitutionality questions.
Neither principle appears to do the trick.

Of the four principles above, only the first seems to apply. So the Court will
have to declare that solitary confinement is torture in order to stop its
widespread use. As seen, the Court has historically been cautious in declaring
punishments unconstitutional, waiting until the battle has already been mostly
fought in the sphere of public opinion.

Given the stances the Court has taken concerning the death penalty, I predict
that no sweeping, immediate prohibitions will take place, rather the Court
will apply largely ineffectual provisions to the imposition of solitary
confinement.

For example, the Court has ruled in 2002 that capital punishment is
constitutionally cruel and unusual when applied to inmates with intellectual
disabilities. Georgia promptly responded by making it virtually impossible to
obtain a judgment.

------
mc32
I'm glad as a society we're starting to look at how we deter crime and how we
manage convicted criminals. I hope we learn to not only take people who are
danger to society out of circulation, but once incarcerated work to have them
become useful when they reenter the general population.

For too long it has resembled third world punishment models. The objective
should be mainly to improve safety and to that end reeducate, reform,
inculcate, etc. in order to make reentry viable.

That said, if it's useful to monitor electronically to ensure compliance, I'm
okay since breaking social norms come with consequences like incarceration,
and reform, etc then electronic monitoring during the probatory period. But we
should put great effort into making those people useful, rather than the
traditional outcasts we've made them to be post release.

------
dharmach
May be solitary confinement should replace capital punishment.

~~~
hwstar
This is what probably will happen in the southern states if capital punishment
is found to be unconstitutional again.

The people in power in the south believe that prison time never rehabilitates,
and prison's sole purpose is to punish. If the death penalty option is taken
away, they'll try to make prison life as difficult as possible for people
convicted of capital murder.

~~~
wfo
This isn't people in the south who believe this, it's most people across the
US who are involved in the non-defense side of the CJ system. And they believe
it doesn't rehabilitate because it's a fact that it doesn't, the only fault we
can find with them is that they believe it shouldn't.

------
a3voices
I don't think solitary would be that bad with Internet access and TV. Maybe
the problem isn't solitary but that they don't get these things. Also I would
prefer _not_ to have a cellmate in prison.

~~~
jonknee
A cellmate and no contact with people ever are different things though. You
don't even see the guards when food is delivered, it's shoved through a hole
in the door. Recreation meant being in a concrete walled yard alone. It's
literally worse than a modern zoo.

~~~
macNchz
I start to get a bit cabin-feverish on the odd weekend when most of my friends
are out of town and I spend a couple of days alone...and even then I talk to a
few people. It feels awful just imagining what it would be like to spend years
in solitary confinement. A form of hell for sure.

------
azraomega
Why am I hearing different stories? Some feel like prisoners are being treated
too well, some feel like they are being mistreated... and isn't the fact being
in a prison with all your freedom being taken away is cruel and all too usual,
too? I'm so confused about this discussion.

~~~
Brian-Puccio
My theory is that if I see someone's arm being broken as a form of punishment,
the pain and suffering is readily visible, which triggers a sort of empathetic
reaction.

But if I see someone in a windowless room by themselves, it's easy to dismiss
that as "not so bad". I could even rationalize is and say "I'm an introvert
and like quiet" or "general population is probably less safe, this would be
better for me". There is no understanding of what it is like to spend weeks
(which would do me in, let alone months or years) locked in a cage with no
natural light, no calendar, a light that is never turned off and no
conversation with anyone else.

Similarly, I've heard and read many people claim waterboarding isn't torture
because "all they need to do is hold their breath, they should rationalize to
themselves that the captors aren't actually trying to drown them". I believe
solitary confinement is cruel because of the psychological effect and
shouldn't be used as it is today for the same reasons I think mock executions
shouldn't be either. (Sure, you don't kill the person, but you're still
psychologically torturing them.)

If you don't believe that humans are social animals and need to interact with
other humans on a regular basis, read about feral children [0].

[0]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feral_child](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feral_child)

~~~
azraomega
But what if they gonna stab somebody or somebody gonna stab them? I can see
the purpose of solitary confinement. It might have been misused (like
everything else). If the solution is better trained prison guard, or an
alternative "nicer confine area" which cost more tax money, it seems
pointless. Of course we need better prison guard operation process, but all
you gonna get is "they are trying their best" kind of answer.

------
nnq
Am I in minority to be the kind of person that would _prefer_ serving
something like a 1-5 years sentence in _solitary_ instead of a regular
american prison

(Yeah, probably at a 5 years limit or something like that it would be too much
and it be psychologically impossible for you to come back to society...)

~~~
omginternets
Respectfully, this is spoken like someone who doesn't realize what solitary
confinement actually entails, nor is familiar with the rich body of literature
on the subject.

Suggested reading:

[1]
[http://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/doi/abs/10.1176/ajp.140.11.1...](http://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/doi/abs/10.1176/ajp.140.11.1450)

[2]
[http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/01602527869...](http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/016025278690083X/pdf?md5=90c889c6110e1d47abf870989df10e82&pid=1-s2.0-016025278690083X-main.pdf)

[3]
[http://openscholarship.wustl.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article...](http://openscholarship.wustl.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1362&context=law_journal_law_policy)

[4]
[http://www.jaapl.org/content/38/1/104.short](http://www.jaapl.org/content/38/1/104.short)

------
shawn-butler
I don't often make these comments and trust the filtering to work but I really
fail to understand why this is on HN front page.

It has no technology or startup confluences or flavor. It is not even a
factual story but an "editorial" opinion piece with zero information content.

~~~
wpietri
"On-Topic: Anything that good hackers would find interesting. That includes
more than hacking and startups. If you had to reduce it to a sentence, the
answer might be: anything that gratifies one's intellectual curiosity." \--
[https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html](https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html)

