
12-year-old suspended over toy gun seen in virtual class - just-juan-post
https://kdvr.com/news/problem-solvers/12-year-old-suspended-over-toy-gun-seen-in-virtual-class/
======
choward
This is ridiculous. Not being able to take kids to school is already hard
enough on parents. They're being forced to use their own home instead of
taking them to a building their tax dollars pay for. It's already privacy
evading enough that they have video cameras in their , but then they record
the video and use it for BS like this. What a waste of resources.

~~~
mc32
Not only that but they called child welfare on the parents:

“ The teacher notified the school principal who suspended Isaiah for five days
and called the El Paso County Sheriff’s Office to conduct a welfare check on
the boy without calling his parents first.”

We’ll probably see push back from parents as they become aware of the state of
education.

This pandemic is going to expose a lot of the education system to parents.

The hope would be the education system learn from this hybrid of state
education + home schooling experiment and also for parents to get more
involved and have a say —but likely there would be tremendous pushback from
unions who would not want that.

~~~
peterpeppers
Good point.

Interestingly, Black students in the United States are subject to disciplinary
action at rates much higher than their white counterparts. These disciplinary
actions put students at higher risk for negative life outcomes, including
involvement in the criminal justice system.

QUOTE: "Black children do not misbehave more than their White peers, rather
they are punished more. In fact, Black students are more likely than their
White peers to receive a disciplinary action for a discretionary offense like
talking back, violating a dress code, or being defiant. Black children are
also more likely to be suspended out of school for their first offense."

SOURCES:

\-
[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2678799/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2678799/)

\-
[https://www.pnas.org/content/116/17/8255](https://www.pnas.org/content/116/17/8255)

\-
[https://www.marshall.usc.edu/sites/default/files/slittle/int...](https://www.marshall.usc.edu/sites/default/files/slittle/intellcont/Little%20The%20Problem%20With%20Black%20Boys%20CEJ%202018-1.pdf)

\- [https://edtrust.org/the-equity-line/for-black-children-
atten...](https://edtrust.org/the-equity-line/for-black-children-attending-
school-is-an-act-of-racial-justice/)

\- [http://kirwaninstitute.osu.edu/racial-disproportionality-
in-...](http://kirwaninstitute.osu.edu/racial-disproportionality-in-school-
discipline-implicit-bias-is-heavily-implicated/)

\- [https://csgjusticecenter.org/youth/breaking-schools-rules-
re...](https://csgjusticecenter.org/youth/breaking-schools-rules-report/)

\- [https://edtrust.org/the-equity-line/for-black-children-
atten...](https://edtrust.org/the-equity-line/for-black-children-attending-
school-is-an-act-of-racial-justice/)

~~~
ed25519FUUU
Would it even be acceptable to publish a study that says otherwise? Could even
a contrary theory be _presented_ in polite society?

~~~
peterpeppers
This is going to seem rude but try reading more.

The Hoover Institution at Stanford has long supported the data-backed studies
of conservative economists on disparities in schooling from Thomas Sowell,
Mike Petrelli, Walter White and Chester E. Finn Jr among others.

The general conservative reaction to the mountain of data is that the studies
are correct. The concern is in "what to do next?" or "Yes, the data is bad but
it doesn't mean that racism lurks behind every tree."

A change in policy may result in even worse outcomes.

STUDIES & OPINION:

\- [https://fordhaminstitute.org/national/commentary/how-
think-a...](https://fordhaminstitute.org/national/commentary/how-think-about-
discipline-disparities)

\- [https://www.educationnext.org/disparate-impact-theory-bad-
fi...](https://www.educationnext.org/disparate-impact-theory-bad-fit-school-
discipline/)

\-
[https://fordhaminstitute.org/national/commentary/disparities...](https://fordhaminstitute.org/national/commentary/disparities-
disparate-impact#body)

~~~
a1369209993
To be fair, the fact that something happens to be true (which, I feel the need
to point out, no one here is actually disputing in this case) doesn't have any
direct bearing on the question of whether polite society, in the
counterfactual case that it were not true, would allow studies to conclude
accordingly.

~~~
peterpeppers
Not understanding the point, unless your aim is to be conspiratorial in
nature.

The Stanford/Hoover Institute studies are obviously the contrarian view so yes
"society" allows an opposing viewpoint...backed by data.

Last I checked, you're free to conclude whatever you wish even when lacking
verifiable data unless your actual goal is to be liked by some particular
segment of "society."

------
D13Fd
They are absolutely wrong in every way to suspend the kid if the facts in the
story are true. That's absurd and harmful with no benefit.

That said, I think there has to be something more to this.

First, the gun is an airsoft gun that actually looks like a green handgun:

[https://nypost.com/2020/09/07/colorado-school-calls-
sheriff-...](https://nypost.com/2020/09/07/colorado-school-calls-sheriff-on-
boy-who-showed-toy-gun-in-virtual-class/)

For comparison, here is a real handgun that happens to be green:

[https://www.pinterest.com/pin/329185053986413778/](https://www.pinterest.com/pin/329185053986413778/)

Second, it's not clear that the teacher understood or believed it was a toy.
And if it wasn't a toy, then their actions don't seem 100% unreasonable.

I love the second amendment, but if the teacher honestly believed a 12 year
old was casually handling a firearm without supervision, I could see them
wanting to let someone know. And maybe they just took it too far.

Maybe I have too much faith in humanity, but I really cannot image any
reasonable person calling child protective services on a house because a child
had a toy gun (nerf, airsoft, or otherwise). I really don't believe teachers
are out to get students or to just waste the state's time.

But if that's what happened then it's reprehensible. And either way, the
suspension makes no sense if the student is telling the truth about what
happened.

~~~
ardy42
> Second, it's not clear that the teacher understood or believed it was a toy.
> And if it wasn't a toy, then their actions don't seem 100% unreasonable.

From the OP:

>> The Problem Solvers obtained the sheriff’s report and it confirms the
teacher “said she assumed it was a toy gun but was not certain.”

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cm2012
School bureaucracy is insane and cares more about liability than common sense
and empathy, story 8001.

------
tlear
This is why teachers unions do not want you to have a choice where you send
your kid.

Because no sane adult would send a kid to a school that did this.

~~~
alphabettsy
I don’t think this is remotely why and the premise is disingenuous as well. It
seems pretty clear that they’re against public funds going to private
institution rather than they want you to have no choice of where to send your
kid.

~~~
agensaequivocum
Why? I pay property tax which mostly goes to education. Why can I not have
choice in how that is spent on the education of my children?

~~~
bradlys
You presumably also pay federal income taxes - why can't you choose how money
on soldiers gets spent?

Maybe because there's a societal benefit from people not getting a choice on
how each one of their individual tax dollars gets spent... And maybe there's a
societal benefit from people not being able to choose which public school they
get put into. You're gonna deal with one of two evils: Tyranny of the majority
or tragedy of the commons. Most places in the US seem to choose tyranny.

~~~
agensaequivocum
Federal expenditures are very different and removed from one's local
community. Everyone should absolutely get some say in how their money is spent
at the local level.

> Most places in the US seem to choose tyranny.

Very true and very sad as well.

~~~
alphabettsy
This is why we have local elections including school boards. Good luck getting
Middle school by AWS to offer similar accountability.

------
kiba
Are institutions eroding common senses or do people just lack common sense in
the first place?

~~~
kayodelycaon
This is very common in American schools. At some point it just got easier to
implement zero-tolerance policies than to deal with the actual issues.

~~~
gchamonlive
I would say it has always been like this and now we are waking up to this
fact. Actually dealing with issues would require a flexibility that would not
go well with the rigidity of the educational system

~~~
ryneandal
It's been this way since at least 2003. My parents taught at a school for
students expelled from their home-zoned schools, and some of the reasons were
incredibly laughable. Zero-tolerance discipline is a plague on our society
(mandatory minimums in sentencing is another example).

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ColanR
> The toy in question is a neon green and black handgun with an orange tip
> with the words “Zombie Hunter” printed on the side.

Pretty sure that's a nurf gun I've seen in walmart before.

~~~
dane-pgp
The article at [0] (which is not geo-restricted) does indeed describe it as a
"neon green Nerf gun".

[0] [https://reason.com/2020/09/07/zoom-nerf-gun-school-cops-
kid-...](https://reason.com/2020/09/07/zoom-nerf-gun-school-cops-kid-isaiah-
elliott/)

------
ed25519FUUU
> _The teacher notified the school principal who suspended Isaiah for five
> days and called the El Paso County Sheriff’s Office to conduct a welfare
> check on the boy without calling his parents first._

This is the scary part to me. The amount of power CPS wields is incredible.
Your children are taken away for weeks and kept with a stranger foster family.
This process is a terror to them, and 15% of them are sexually abused while in
the foster care system[1].

We learned with Pelosi Jr. that CPS is weaponized by the politically connected
to threaten or silence people[2].

1\.
[https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/c495/52badb0c693eb6f7ed8960...](https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/c495/52badb0c693eb6f7ed8960ba55720e71876b.pdf)

2\. [https://nationalfile.com/video-pelosis-sons-ex-girlfriend-
cl...](https://nationalfile.com/video-pelosis-sons-ex-girlfriend-claims-
forced-abortion-abuse-weaponizing-cps-massive-fraud/)

~~~
john-shaffer
A "welfare check" is just police stopping by and asking if everything's okay.
The CPS aren't involved.

------
swiley
School administration reaching into people’s homes is _extremely_ offensive. I
can’t believe people tolerate this!

~~~
topkai22
Given that teaching is happening inside people’s homes, it has to.

That being said, this is stupid in the extreme. I can justify the welfare
check, but the suspension is insane.

~~~
andrewfong
In the current environment (a significant percentage of Americans are afraid
of almost any police interaction and are demonstrating to that effect), the
welfare check seems ridiculous as well -- especially when a phone call to the
parents would suffice.

------
mcphage
> “We will continue to support all families in our school to make sure they
> feel safe, respected, and educated.”

Wow, they _seriously_ fucked that one up. There’s nothing in the district’s
actions that would make anyone feel safe or respected.

~~~
a1369209993
Technically they didn't fuck it up - they're just lying about trying in the
first place.

~~~
mcphage
I mean, yeah, you're right, although they managed to do the complete opposite
of what they were lying about; if I went to that school I'd feel a hell of a
lot _less_ safe or respected knowing that the school might send the police to
talk to my children based on something they briefly see on camera, without
even talking to me about it.

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merlinscholz
"This site is currently unavailable to visitors from the European Economic
Area while we work to ensure your data is protected in accordance with
applicable EU laws."

Apparently tracking is more important than actually providing the news.

~~~
yenwodyah
Apparently privacy is more important to the EU than being able to see the
news.

~~~
gscott
You can guarantee absolute privacy by blocking the visitor entirely! Problem
solved.

------
srtjstjsj
Headline buried the lede: two boys were suspended, and one was threatened with
imprisonment.

------
projectileboy
Yep, I was waiting for this. There’s a whole new world of stupid liability
that we haven’t even touched on yet. Similar stuff will happen in the
workplace.

~~~
spectramax
Ugh. Tell me about it. Workplaces are full of this bullshit.

Ergonomics training - CYA for lawsuits due to repeated motions, they want to
make sure you signed off on the training. It has nothing to do with your well-
being.

Diversity and Inclusion - I fucking hate this. It has not much to do with
getting people of various backgrounds but CYA against discrimination lawsuits.

Office safety - I can’t bring my own coffee machine because I might just cause
a “trip hazard”. Hmm... I see another CYA against workplace injury lawsuits.

------
sschueller
Although a toy gun, doesn't the second amendment also apply to children? I
don't remember seeing an age restriction in the constitution. Also the "gun"
was at home and not taken on school property.

~~~
hindsightbias
It’s Texas. Zero Tolerance and minimum mandatory sentencing trumps your
rights.

~~~
atestu
It happened in Colorado.

------
slowmovintarget
We live in a "good" school district. I was thrilled when our home-school plan
was accepted. Every time I see stories like this I take it as one more data
point in support of our decision.

------
ed25519FUUU
A great reason to be in favor of "money follows the student" type of school
funding[1]. This is one of those policies that I'm unexpectedly in favor of
with the current admin. Especially with online education.

The reality is these parents are stuck. Parents in terrible districts are
stuck. What incentive do schools have to change if they'll get the money for
your child either way?

1\.
[https://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2020/08/12/trump_on_...](https://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2020/08/12/trump_on_reopening_schools_we_want_money_to_follow_the_student_democrats_want_money_to_follow_the_union.html)

~~~
srtjstjsj
Money should follow the competence, not marketing campaigns.

~~~
ed25519FUUU
If money should follow competence then the bulk of our public schools should
be seriously defunded, especially in inner cities.

~~~
ardy42
> If money should follow competence then the bulk of our public schools should
> be seriously defunded, especially in inner cities.

I believe the inner city schools already have been defunded (or more precisely
have been underfunded from the start), _which is part of the problem_.

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redmaple
That teacher and principal should be fired

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tomohawk
Shows how unaccountable government schools are for their actions.

