
Millennials Continue to Leave Big Cities - jseliger
https://www.wsj.com/articles/millennials-continue-to-leave-big-cities-11569470460?mod=rsswn
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throwawaysea
That’s because most cities have poor quality of life, and once you get out of
the twenties, you realize quickly that some breathing room, a safe
neighborhood, and a single family home with a yard make you much more happy
than having access to a large number of bars, restaurants, and other city
amenities that you visit less and less. Most millennials are in their thirties
now and as they start families they’re realizing high-density urbanism isn’t
all its cracked out to be.

Of course what I’m saying isn’t universal and I think there’s a middle ground
with cities that retain low-mid density zoning, but it’s my general
observation nevertheless.

~~~
helen___keller
> That’s because most cities have poor quality of life

And the ones that don't have incredibly expensive properties.

Of course, if you live in the bay area there's a good chance you're exposed to
both expensive prices _and_ a poor standard of living, which I'm sure explains
a lot of the horrifying experiences I read about here.

Personally, I live in Cambridge MA. Despite this city being the world's top
biotech hub, the part of Cambridge I live in is incredibly family-friendly. I
don't see needles or crime unless maybe you get close to the "main street" but
that's a 15 minute walk away. The cars drive slowly, there's kids and parks
everywhere. I would love to raise a family here. But, a single floor in a 3
family building (which was working class housing just a few decades ago) now
sells around a million bucks. It's just not feasible, so my wife and I rent
and will probably move out to buy somewhere else if prices don't go down in
the next few years.

~~~
znpy
> > That’s because most cities have poor quality of life

> And the ones that don't have incredibly expensive properties.

This, so much.

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CalRobert
It doesn't help that people in cities have voted to make it illegal to build
more city. The nice bits all existed before cars. The stuff built since then
is mostly parking and roads. As a result, only the wealthiest can afford to
live in the nice part built before we decided apartments needed as much room
for parking as for people.

I'm on the older side of millenial (mid 30's). I love cities. I love walking
and cycling everywhere and having a low carbon footprint and being near
interesting people and great food and being able to go to museums, etc. I
think having more people in cities is a requirement for stopping climate
apocalypse.

But after we had a kid we thought "where can we live where our kid can ride a
bike and not die" and "where can we live where we can afford a home for
three"? And there was... nothing. Suburbia was full of high speed arterials
and only slightly less expensive homes. The core city was too expensive for a
2 bed flat.

I got a remote job and we moved way out. I have cows on three sides. It's
boring. The roads are still dangerous, sadly, but the house was so
astonishingly cheap we can consider it effectively worthless and still come
out ahead.

Maybe in time we'll be eligible to live in DK, NL, etc. but until then the
rural middle of nowhere is the only option that makes sense financially (if
remote work holds up).

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yardie
Most urban schools are highly stratified. Either cream of the crop or bottom
of the barely and little in between. The best of schools have entry
requirements and a waiting list. You're either brilliantly gifted or rich
enough to afford the tutors to help get you there. If you're not in that
group, academically, there is very few resources for you. The other inner-
urban schools are just fighting to keep the heat on and have no time for you.

The city I live in has no school, beyond the single K-5, within the city
limits. It's a chicken and egg problem through lack of political will. The
parents petition the school board to open a middle and high school. They
commission a years long study. Those parents eventually have to move because
of work, increases costs, and lack of schools. A new set of parents petition
the school board for more schools... ad nauseam

Our son has a longer commute to school than I do for work. He's lucky enough
to be on a fast bus line. Him growing up in the city is orthogonal to most
childhoods. He visits galleries and museums when he can. Has a lot more
sympathy for the homeless. He's also gotten into the habit of skipping school
lunch and going to the hipster cafe instead.

All this to say I know my family occupies special circumstances that allow us
to live in the city. If any one of those changes I know we'd have to look at a
suburban lifestyle.

~~~
rdtwo
The reason suburban districts have good public schools and urban ones have bad
schools is that dividing students into school zones is a legal method of
segregation. Cities and districts will intentionally build only expensive
single family housing in good school districts to keep the riff raff out.

~~~
yardie
City schools usually have no address requirements. Our school even has
students coming from the next county. They can get a commuter waiver because
the parents work near the school. since businesses pay the same taxes it
actually works out better for students and parents. The best schools have
entry requirements that usually stratify by race and class.

~~~
cafard
A number of persons have been hit with large bills for sending their children
to District of Columbia schools while not residing in the District. In many
cases the city school administration did a really bad job of following up
information, and the parents have been or will be cleared. In other cases, the
parents really did live in Maryland or Virginia.

And then there is gaming addresses to get one's kid into the best non-magnet
high school (Wilson).

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hdlothia
It's interesting because in Atlanta the inner city is growing and the suburbs
are becoming more like the city and creating walkable downtown areas. The new
millennial ideal seems to be a revival of the main street and a rejection of
both the strip malls and super urbanized downtowns.

If millennials really didn't like the urban lifestyle then wouldn't prices be
dropping instead of staying high?

I was recently in a coffee shop in Ypsilanti, Michigan that was
indistinguishable from one in Brooklyn. I think more and more people are
realizing they can keep the things they want from trendy metros and move to
places like Raleigh, Salt Lake City,Austin,Atlanta,Boise ,Dallas,Ann Arbor in
exchange for lower costs and less traffic.

~~~
helen___keller
> If millennials really didn't like the urban lifestyle then wouldn't prices
> be dropping instead of staying high?

A million times this. I don't want to (and can't afford to) pay for the ultra
luxury downtown destination living experience. But urban living is more than
luxurious downtown destinations.

I want my day-to-day trips (bringing kids to school, going to the grocery
store, going to work) to be safe and accessible without a car. Just starting
there implies a lot about the built environment, and your stereotypical suburb
just can't offer that.

~~~
throwaway1777
Why do you want to go without a car so badly? I get not wanting one IN the
city (did it for several years myself), but outside of the city driving is not
bad at all.

~~~
helen___keller
It's not really the end-all-be-all, but it's a matter of personal preference
that I would like to go without one if possible.

Having grown up in the deep suburbs of a car-dependent city (including having
a car to myself for a few years in high school), it basically comes down to
this:

(a) I don't like driving and I'm bad at it.

(b) I don't want my kids to grow up like I grew up: with no friends in walking
distance, nowhere to hang out in walking distance, ultimately bored and only
spending time on the internet as a result. By the age I had a car to spend
time with friends on my own terms, I basically had no social skills to speak
of.

(c) Driving cars just _feels bad_ to me. Like, from an environmental point of
view. I know it's not sustainable for the earth in the long-term, so it sucks
feeling like I am reliant on that technology.

Again, it's all personal. But having lived both without a car and completely
car dependent, my optimum for quality of life is living a car-optional
lifestyle, where the car is only used for the occasional luxury (e.g. a
weekend trip out), not for day to day necessities.

~~~
dawg-
I want to chime in here too, because I am from a similar place - deep suburbs
where having a car is a necessity. Only difference is I still refuse to pay to
live in an inner city. I am counting on the current renaissance of suburban
cities to continue, where these smaller towns are embracing
walkability/bikeability. My dream is to live in a little suburban town where I
can actually walk and bike to important places, and only go into the big city
when necessary. It seems like we are getting there, slowly!

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ldoughty
A house down the street from where I grew up costs $650,000 for 1500 sq ft on
a sixth of an acre. Meanwhile I was offered $55k with 2 years experience.
There is also a massively crappy public transit system that lets me commute 4
hours/day to work my 8hour/day job, or I have to buy a car as well. How is the
math supposed to work out?

I moved out of the metro area and have been much happier for it... Sure jobs
are harder to find, but when I started getting offers they actually paid a
livable wage.

That was my story 7-8 years ago. I could probably move back and make really
good money, but the quality of life difference is atrocious and homes only got
more expensive.

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TrackerFF
Ya, here's my story:

When I moved to a rapidly expanding city from my small town, some 15 years
ago, rent was pretty decent. Real-estate was on the rise, then took a hit in
2008, but has been rising ever since.

Rent alone has gone up like 3 times (my first rented apartment, which cost
$500 / month, now goes for $1500 / month). We used to joke that who in their
right minds would pay $1500 bucks a month, unless the apartment was a complete
penthouse...these days you get a 300 sq.ft for that kind of money.

After college I landed a pretty nice job - but I could not shake off the
feeling that I was throwing away money on increasing rents.

Doing some quick calculations, I found out that I would save roughly $20000 a
year on moving somewhere smaller. My job involved travel, so it didn't really
make much sense anyway.

So that's what I did. Moved away, and have saved soon close to $100k, which I
use to invest.

I visit friends in the old city every two months or so - a long-weekend tour.

My younger brother is in a similar position, and it's next to impossible for
his peers to get a foot inside the housing market, unless you come from
resourceful families that can bankroll your first apartment. So from what I've
heard, it's indeed become a "life-hack" to simply move somewhere cheaper, save
like crazy, and then move back - cash rich.

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hprotagonist
Here's my paradox: The city i live in has a median 1BR condo price north of
$500k, which I cannot afford, but i more or less have to live here because
this is the hub of my field. I hate long commutes, so, I rent.

~~~
voidmain0001
Nothing wrong with renting, so long as you can sublet it, and you have rent
control. Consider it an investment without all of the capital cost
expenditures that come with a ownership. I have a coworker whose family member
rented a one bdrm condo in downtown Toronto 20 years ago when she was
attending university. When she left univ, she sublet it to another family
member, and so on, and so on through the years. Thanks to rent control the
rent has only increased a few hundred dollars over those twenty years.
However, the she sublets it at current rental market value which pockets her
$1000/month. Nice!

~~~
refurb
That's great! Your coworker's family member is breaking the law! You can't
sublet for more than the rent controlled rent.

~~~
voidmain0001
It's not illegal in Toronto.
[https://www.thestar.com/business/real_estate/2011/02/12/the_...](https://www.thestar.com/business/real_estate/2011/02/12/the_ins_and_outs_of_subletting.html)
My mistake. Sublet rental amount cannot be > leased rental amount. I didn't
know that. Good to know. Does the landlord have recourse if this can be
proved?

I'm surrounded by law-breakers then. [https://www.kijiji.ca/b-short-term-
rental/gta-greater-toront...](https://www.kijiji.ca/b-short-term-rental/gta-
greater-toronto-area/sublet/k0c42l1700272)

~~~
refurb
At least in SF, if you're caught doing it, you get the pleasant task of
repaying all the excess payments back to the subletter.

It's rampant here in SF as well. I know a few folks who are getting 2-3x their
total rent payment by renting out a couple rooms.

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Wonnk13
I must be very sick in the head because the thought of a single family four
bedroom house 30+ min away from my work does not sound appealing at all.

I quite enjoy urban life and the tapestry of humanity that fills it.

Anywhere other than SF, NYC and maybe Boston and LA condo/house prices aren't
too unreasonable imho.

~~~
ummonk
Are you less than a 30 min walk from work?

~~~
Wonnk13
I'm about 6ft and have a slightly longer stride than most folks, I'd say I
could do it comfortably in about 40 minutes.

Depending on traffic lights and the such it's about 15 mins on the bike or
train.

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rootusrootus
Does not seem surprising, cities are expensive places to live and millennials
probably can't afford it yet.

~~~
Kaiyou
Millenials are between 39 and 23 years old. I don't think it's useful to
pretend that their earning capacity is what defines them as a group.

~~~
rootusrootus
That is, in fact, one of the main arguments the article is making. Cities are
too expensive, millennial are fleeing to less expensive suburbs.

Also because public schools in the city continue to struggle compared to their
suburban counterparts, and millennial with children care about that.

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neonate
[http://archive.is/uGNld](http://archive.is/uGNld)

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bin0
Copy-paste from another thread, cause it's still relevant.

Urban environments aren't really "nice". For all I hear about the joys of
urban living, as espoused by others, I haven't enjoyed it much. Public
transportation is crowded and smelly. Fat people take half of my seat (not
nice to say, but I'm not sure how else to put it). Things are small, which for
a taller guy like me, is pretty tough. As in, every thing is tiny. Living
spaces, shops, streets. Streets often have trash strewn on them, and don't
smell particularly good. I have to keep one hand on my wallet. Sometimes,
hobos get aggressive. Not as much as an issue for me, but I'd hate to be a
4'9" lady. Keeping pets is hard. Cooking food is hard. I didn't have kids, but
those I knew had a hard time with them. Things are very expensive. It's loud.
There's a lot of traffic. Some times (all winter and some times in summer),
it's bad weather for walking. I guess I shouldn't be complaining, since I at
least didn't see much in the way of human feces. This is not to say there
aren't up-sides. I like the food, and there are interesting people. It's also
much easier to find certain things; for instance, a few major cities still
have serious "maker shops" with tons of electronic components. Smaller ones or
sub-urban areas often can't accommodate them, as they are in low enough demand
that serious density is required.

I like sub-urban living and empty green space. I can hardly blame people for
moving out, if it's viable. The above applies differently to different cities;
some are better, some are worse, but all have most of these problems in the
urban core. Considering how expensive it is to live in a city rather than a
suburb (especially if you're talking a similar amount of land), I don't want
to pay more for less.

------
sammyo
"nobody goes there anymore, it's too crowded" -Satchel Paige.

~~~
kiritanpo
That quote is attributed to Yogi Berra. You mixed up your baseball players.

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rc_hadoken
Millennial here. I like cities...the spread of ideas and culture is fast.
Concerts, coffee shops (to read in) and its easier to meet hardworking people
in a city(i feel like most relatively young people stay in cities at the very
least until they reach their goals)...and learn how to make money just like
them. Suburbs to me are where people go wait to well...die and I don't mean
literally. I lived with my parents for a year after finishing school in a
really nice suburb I felt suffocated. They love it.

My old man always told me not to call things 'expensive' but to ask myself why
I cant afford them (at the moment). If you aren't willing to make the money to
live somewhere comfortable then just call it what it is: not a priority.

FYI im immigrant and did not start out life well off but I did have parents
that are very no nonsense and honest about why and how people choose to live
where they live and why. Most just want to be comfortable and that's O.K

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pcbangbros
I thought they just got there?

~~~
jteppinette
This was my immediate reaction. Haven't there been a lot of articles about the
millennial rush to the city?

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GoToRO
Nobody would stay in the city unless for the jobs. Sure, some cities are
nicer, but not that many.

