

The Microsoft Surface Pro Proves That The PC Is Back - takenusernam
http://techcrunch.com/2013/02/05/microsoft-surface-pro-review/

======
bpatrianakos
I'm sorry but I'm not buying it. Whenever I hear someone say "I'm not pro X"
or "I'm not anti-Y" or "I'm not a Z apologist" it's always followed by a "but"
that essentially amounts to "I've put my blinders on and trying my best to
sound objective".

Now, this could just be me but I really doubt it - the upgraded specs and
compatibility don't mean anything to me even as a power user if I'm not able
to comfortably work with the device. I really think the blending of tablets
and laptops is a bad idea. Maybe one day someone will come up with a hybrid
that changes my mind but so far from what I see all of them look like a
hodgepodge of touch interfaces plus a keyboard that's supposed to make the guy
who's not so sure about the whole "tablet" thing feel at ease and, wrongly,
think that if the tablet-like functionality doesn't work for him he (or she of
course) could just slap that keyboard on and they'll be in familiar territory.
But not with Windows 8.

I also question having a laptop with a touch interface to begin with. In order
to do it right you've got to take into account the types of gestures people
are naturally accustomed to plus the size of touch targets, etc. So if you do
that then you basically end up with something like Metro which is really
pretty but frustrating as hell if you want to use it as a regular PC. People
want to use a tablet for "single purpose" apps (I'm kind of loosely using that
term) and a PC is for more heavy duty operations where you may need multiple
windows open at a time. I might need my Word processor out at the same time as
my browser and my IM client and transfer text between all 3 as a very simple
example. Try doing that with Windows 8. I have. It's horrible. I mean, I
totally get why you'd want to incorporate tablet ideas into desktops and
laptops but at the same time you can't just directly port the UI and
interactions from a tablet to a PC. It's got to be more subtle. I hate to
bring up Apple but I think OS X has done some good work in how their touchpad
works. There are a lot of gestures that work very naturally on the touchpad
that come from tablets but still make sense in the context of a laptop or a
desktop with a trackpad.

But again, that might just be me and this all might just be a lot of stuff I
just don't understand. But I've got a feeling it really isn't.

~~~
samstave
I am sitting here typing with my Lenovo x220 Tablet Laptop - a laptop with a
touch screen and stylus.

I hate it. HATE it. the touch screen on a laptop is out of place without any
way to disable the touch when I want, it overlays the touch technology on the
screen which is visible to me in the sun - as well as the screen medium makes
the screen more dim than I would like. Especially in the sun/brightly lit
areas.

It really needs to be done right in order to make a great experience. Thus far
I haven't seen one.

One of the frustrating things about a touch-screen laptop is that I have a
very curious toddler. She likes to touch what daddy is touching, so she will
come and grab the screen to bend it down so she can see what I am doing and in
doing so clicks on things, scrolls and closes windows.

I never use the touch screen on this machine for anything and so it is simply
an annoyance.

~~~
dylangs1030
Just curious, did you buy the Lenovo thinking the touch screen would be a
plus? I'm not sure a saleperson at Best Buy would be able to sell me a touch
screen computer. The mere idea seems unwieldly, like someone desperately
trying to make innovation in consistently wrong directions.

~~~
samstave
This is a work provided machine, not my choice :)

~~~
dylangs1030
Ah, sorry to hear that :)

------
jiggy2011
Device convergence seems like something that sounds great in theory, but based
on my observations people seem to enjoy filling their lives with more gadgets
rather than less especially when you have devices that can fit one specific
use case very well.

Example would be games consoles and the amazon kindle, in fact plenty of
people will have 2 games consoles to play different kinds of games (e.g wii
and xbox).

I think the main draw of hybrid devices is where buying individual devices is
unaffordable to most people (e.g cars) whereas the price is computing devices
seems to be coming down.

Dedicated devices have other advantages too, for example if your kids are
bored you can hand them your tablet or let them play xbox while leaving your
laptop free to work on.

it might also be nice to have a hybrid device if carrying two devices is
cumbersome. However in the event that you will be carrying a laptop, you
probably have it in a bag find that a small tablet will fit comfortably in
there also.

~~~
nextparadigms
I agree. Because of the "hybrid" theory, I also thought that's the future
initially. But once I started using Windows 8, and thinking about the
compromises you have to make with a "hybrid", I realized it's not the best of
both worlds, but the worst of both worlds.

With a Surface RT you get no legacy app support, and it's slow. You get
support for Atom ones, but they are still too slow for most legacy apps. And
they are not very cheap either. At a time that even an iPad, the market leader
in tablets, costs $330, these things are going for $600+ with a keyboard. They
stand no chance.

As for Surface Pro, you get the speed of an ultrabook (more than a tablet, but
less than a regular laptop, or a PC), but 4h of battery life, so not useful as
a tablet, while only having a relatively tiny tablet screen, compared to a
laptop, so I don't think you can be that productive on it. It's also too thick
and heavy for a tablet.

I now think the future really is having a good, no compromises tablet, that
should be very affordable, especially in the future. And a good, no
compromises laptop with a large screen, that you can use for work, and you
don't have to change every year, or even every 2 years.

------
a2tech
Arstechnica posted an article this morning about the Surface Pro, and needless
to say it is not complimentary:
[http://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2013/02/microsoft-surface-
wit...](http://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2013/02/microsoft-surface-with-
windows-8-pro-hotter-thicker-faster-louder/)

~~~
mrgreenfur
The verge review wasn't very complimentary either, though I trust Ars more on
this kind of thing: [http://www.theverge.com/2013/2/5/3955130/microsoft-
surface-p...](http://www.theverge.com/2013/2/5/3955130/microsoft-surface-pro-
review)

What are those TC guys smoking? Could it be delicious PR funded paid
placement?

------
funkiee
I can't agree with the statement, "It's a laptop!". It's almost impossible to
use in your lap comfortably the way you would a laptop.

~~~
nwh
Everyone uses it like one though; I haven't seen one review even mention the
on screen keyboard. Is there even one?

~~~
dhruvmittal
I've actually been incredibly curious about how well the on-screen keyboard
works for these windows 8 machines on a long-term basis (or at least actual
usage, not just fiddling around in the shop), but nobody talks about them.

I can therefore only conclude that they're quite terrible?

~~~
CodeCube
actually, the onscreen keyboard is quite good IMO. You can switch between the
full sized mode (similar to any other tablet), and a layout designed for using
your thumbs when holding the device.

------
rayiner
This is the paragraph that loses me: "At $1,000, you’re paying about as much
as you’d pay for a MacBook Air or a more powerful Windows laptop. Is this
premium worth the investment? I’d say that it ultimately depends on how you
intend to use this system. If it’s a laptop replacement as in something you
carry on trips or to meetings, then yes. This is a stable and solid machine
and will turn heads when you open it up."

If I wanted a laptop, I'd by an Air. If I wanted a tablet, I'd by a Nexus 10
or an iPad. Why would I want a laptop without a real keyboard/trackpad, and
why would I want a tablet that's 2 pounds with 3-5 hours of battery life? You
can say "best of both worlds" but I think it's more consolidation for the sake
of consolidation resulting in a user experience that's compromised for every
use-case.

From the article: "The type cover and inputs are flawed. The touchpad on the
type cover is woefully small and the connection between the keyboard and the
device is often wonky, disconnecting at odd intervals."

This, in my opinion, puts a nail in the whole "but, but, it's an ultrabook!"
shtick some people have been trotting out.

------
nextparadigms
How exactly? It's just an ultrabook, which aren't much more than a tiny niche
market in the PC market right now. And it has a touchscreen does that make it
a tablet? A tablet with 4 hours of battery life, that is heavier even than an
iPad, that people have already quit for the lighter iPad Mini and Nexus 7's,
and that costs twice as much even than the $500 iPad?

The PC is _not_ back, and the falling PC sales during this year will prove it.

------
nextparadigms
I don't usually read Gruber's post, but I see he put up a list of conclusions
from several reviews for Surface Pro. They keyword in all of them seems to be
"compromise", which is exactly what I said in my others comments:

<http://daringfireball.net/2013/02/the_c_word>

------
InclinedPlane
I think the aspirations behind the Surface Pro are solid, but everything I've
read about the execution leads me to believe that it is a huge failure. That
happens. Sometimes you try to push something too early or it requires many
iterations to actually get right. I suspect it will take a lot of evolution
for some frankensteinian relative of both mobile and desktop operating systems
to be good enough to actually serve as the root of the future of personal
computing. I'm certain that Windows 8 and the Surface Pro won't be anything
more than a footnote in that evolutionary tree.

In many ways this was pretty close to the move that Microsoft needed to make
now, but it's not right enough and not good enough and not executed well
enough either. In the timespan between the announcement and release Apple will
have gone through an entire ipad rev. cycle. You can't fight against an OODA
loop that is multiples faster than yours with half-measures and mediocrity.
The company is already on the betting table whether you like it or not, you
need to play to win or go home.

~~~
phren0logy
That's pretty much my reaction: Microsoft is being fairly radical, but not
radical enough.

What Android, iOS, and OS X have demonstrated is that a lot of people can meet
their computing needs without Windows. Microsoft's approach seems doomed to
hold on to a huge but ever-shrinking slice of that pie.

Offering something dramatically different might (from my flawed understanding)
demand removing some of the older elements of Windows that allow backward
compatibility, but prevent deeper changes to how Windows works.

I'd love to see them put out a new-from-the-ground-up OS as a free beta, and
get enough things right to generate a lot of buzz around it. They could
release it with some limited emulation for Windows, just to ease the
transition, the way Apple did with OS X. Of course, they don't have to do
this, and anyone considering their new OS would be just as free to consider
any OS at that point, but that seems to be happening anyway with mobile
devices.

To sum up my rambling, they're an interesting company with a lot of smart
people who seem to be shackled to old technology. If they don't move on, much
of the world will move on without them, and that would be a shame.

~~~
bad_user
It takes a lot of time to build and release a new OS and then jump-start a
community of developers around it. The power of the PC and the reason why
we'll still be using PCs for a long time is also due to its legacy ...
basically whatever tasks you need to do on a PC, there's already an app for it
and most people probably know about it too.

Getting rid of this legacy would be Microsoft's poison pill. Unfortunately for
them Windows is being disrupted by OS X and Linux for power-users on one hand
and Android / iOS for normal users on the other hand. They are in the classic
innovators dilemma.

~~~
JoeAltmaier
The dilemma can also be disrupted, by pulling a Henderson of some kind. Change
what it means to be a PC/desktop. Put all those legacy apps in a 3D world,
tool up for holographic displays, something.

Or just slowly die, filing lawsuits to retard the industry and drag out your
lifeblood a few more years.

~~~
bad_user
I actually agree with you. Microsoft, instead of working on mediocre hybrids,
should work harder to innovate the desktop, while slowly pursuing the path of
hybrids with WinPhone. The truth is the world is not ready for hybrids yet.
And when the world will be ready, then I predict both iOS and Android will be
there.

Instead they've chosen to handicap the most successful product they've ever
had. I couldn't say I'm sorry as I haven't been a Windows user for years.

------
ed_blackburn
For me the jury is still out for Surfaces in the home commerce market. A few
refinements and I can see Surfaces being a success in _Enterprises_. Hybrid
tablet / PC, ability to run a Citrix client onsite, LDAP integration, groups
policy etc...

------
fierarul
Tangential, but that “wedge” mouse looks quite RSI inducing.

~~~
nwh
I got claw-hand just looking at it.

------
mctx
> the 64 GB has only 23 GB available and the 128 GB model has only 83 GB
> available.

How does Windows 8 take up 41GB? Is it purely the OS? Bloatware?

~~~
zalzane
This is a question I've been wanting an answer to myself. I have a 64gb SSD
that has -only- a blank windows install on it; no programs or anything, and it
takes up 54gb of space.

------
schuke
Put an Atom processor in the RT then I'm sold.

~~~
bitwize
ASUS VivoTab?

------
niels_olson
> wacom input

please, Apple, please

------
dylangs1030
But...how? Tablet is becoming a buzz word that makes consumers forget
themselves so they buy a trendy thing. Here's why:

Hackers won't want to buy the Surface. It's got a touch screen. What do they
want with a touch screen? They want a full powered, no proprietary Linux
installation; a Mac OS X Unix with a lot of freedoms and some great
proprietary software; or, if they love ASP or Visual Basic, maybe Windows. But
not Windows developed for a touch screen tablet. Actual Windows, on a computer
screen.

And users who think critically probably won't want the Surface because, after
the glitzy touch screen and processor speed holds no more euphoria, they
realize that they're not holding Windows Vista or Windows 7. They're holding
Windows 8, which is not really a full operating system on a tablet. Microsoft
advertises it this way, but in fact, Windows 8 looks better on a tablet than
it does on a laptop. So really, Microsoft just switched the discrepancy such
that it could claim the tablet had a "full operating system" - a full
operating system would be a hackable Windows 7 implementation, and all the
processing demands that would carry with it.

Windows 8 doesn't seem to be progress to me. It seems to be part of the trend
to slowly fuse tablets and laptops into this strange combination that will
universalize every computing need.

And that's crap. That's something like saying an iPad can replace your laptop
(it just can't, most of the time).

People are confusing trending with progress. It's not progress to try to
universalize your devices. You can't forget that hardware still has software
needs. What's the point of calling it a tablet if you're just going to make it
a less powerful laptop? Microsoft gets away with this because of terminology.
Let's change tablet with "less powerful laptop":

If I have the choice of a less powerful laptop with a touch screen, and a
laptop with a superior processor, more hard drive space, more RAM and a larger
screen, I'm going to buy the second, especially if it's proportionately priced
to its advantaged.

This is a dumb trend, don't buy into it.

EDIT: I venture a theory that Microsoft is trying to defeat Apple's iPad with
the Surface by redefining tablet (no, literally, not in a marketing campaign
kind of way). A tablet is useful under certain circumstances, the same way a
computer is. It's SUPPOSED to be streamlined. So if you completely un-
streamline a tablet, what do you have? A computer that is bloated and less
powerful. It manages to be less able to satisfy the demands of either.

A tablet is specialization. So when the specialization is removed, it's no
longer worth it.

------
cooldeal
Here's the Anandtech review featured on HN just a few hours ago.

<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5175190>

If that one got flagged off the front page then this one stands no chance. No
point in wasting time writing up comments. Save your breath for the extremely
negative posts, those will stay on the front page for days.

~~~
nextparadigms
It did not get flagged off the front page. I watched it myself how it dropped
to the bottom of the page. Getting flagged off the page would've meant
disappearing from the top early on. Maybe it's too hard to admit people just
don't care much about it.

~~~
cooldeal
Then why was it sitting below another article that was posted around the same
time but had only nearly half the points?

<http://i.imgur.com/uFPTSqR.png>

Edit: Even now, it ranks lower than another article with the exact same points
posted a full four hours before it.

<http://i.imgur.com/Yg5kXJb.png>

