
The Two Asian Americas - lermontov
http://www.newyorker.com/books/page-turner/the-two-asian-americas
======
lordnacho
One of the weirdest things I've found about America as someone who grew up in
Europe is racial segregation.

When I look on Facebook pictures of my european friends, they tend to be in a
big mix of colors. Sure, there's more Indians at an Indian wedding in London,
but you will see the little gang of white/east asian/black kids there too. Go
to a majority (ie white) wedding and you will see they have a bunch of
Indian/Chinese/Black etc friends.

When I look on the Facebook pictures of American friends, they are quite
clearly color segregated. I really find it odd that out of maybe 300 guests at
a wedding in SF, only a couple are not from the same minority.

America is also the country where I've found the strongest racial stereotypes.
In Europe it's not really the stuff of comedians anymore, but when I went to a
comedy night in NYC, the guy looked at me and said "Why aren't you doing
homework?". Funny, sure, but it says something about what the audience already
believes about various people.

~~~
aznpwnzor
Segregation is often self-imposed. As an Asian-American, I often can't relate
with white people. What they worry about and enjoy do nothing for me. This
started from a young age (what is allowance? what is getting grounded?
hobbies?) and although I have many close white friends, on a whole they are
the minority in my friend groups. The only way this segregation has to do with
race is that stereotypes are exactly that, true for a distribution. Another
way to say this is that people I end up relating well with tend to come from
the same experiences (namely that of growing up Asian-American).

In addition, I'm often super surprised at these comments. The US is many
orders of magnitude less accepting of racism than Europe. Europeans on the
whole speak freely of their negative opinions of Muslims and gypsies. In the
US, any comment mentioning race carries immediately with it a negative
connotation. This is exactly why it is the breadstuff of comedians. There is
no humor in something that is simply accepted as "truth" as much of European
racism is.

I hate speaking anecdotally, but just as a credit to my experience with racism
in Europe as an Asian-American, my time there was filled with experiences
ranging from ignorance to aggressive defensiveness. Most of this can be
explained away as just inexperience due to Europe's immense racial
homogeneity. Often they would treat me as a fob which was an acceptable
assumption. But this just goes to show how behind Europe is in the racial
conversation (they don't even have racial experiences!)

~~~
chiaro
It's strange. I'd echo the sentiments expressed in the parent about the UK
when it comes to Australia, too. Seems like people identify with their race
before their nationality in the US. We don't have "African-Australians" or
"Asian-Australians" here. Everyone is just Australian.

------
rememberlenny
_[off topic: Im on the New Yorker tech team]_

We just launched a feature called "remind to read", that lets users send
themselves a reminder email about content. Depending on where you trigger the
service, the reminder email will send you back to where you were.

To see it while reading, scroll up. A module appears in the bottom righthand
corner.

It launched last Thursday. I'd love to hear everyones thoughts!

~~~
burritofanatic
Thank you for doing such great work. The New Yorker is one of the few
publications I pay for in print and will continue to do so for quite a while.
You guys do ads right, and your site isn't bloated.

~~~
rememberlenny
Thank you!

We do our best to keep it this way.

If you come across any annoyances, please reach out!

------
otoburb
>> _In the eyes of some, Asians in America are, Lee writes, “perpetual
foreigners at worst, or probationary Americans at best.” If Asians sometimes
remain silent in the face of racism, and if some seem to work unusually hard
in the face of this difficult history, it is not because they want to be part
of a “model minority” but because they have often had no other choice._

A racial epithet was thrown at me and my family in parting by a homeless
person last year while crossing the intersection in my neighborhood, which we
shrugged off. This quote prompted the memory again, and I think that Asians in
Western countries may remain silent also because causing a scene is, in
general, considered "unseemly" when little is perceived to be gained. I
originally felt this to be a rather rational response for anybody else
(regardless of their race), but when placed against the backdrop of the
Immigration and Nationality Act of '65 mentioned in the article, I'm
considering a different response the next time, although I sincerely hopefully
there won't _be_ a next time.

Makes one almost laugh good-naturedly at serious and systematic Canadian
Québécois policies devoted to keeping the French language alive in Canada. I
much rather prefer intense debates around _language_ over _race_.

EDIT: I grew up in the Middle East, where racism is overt. In Saudi Arabia
(for example), your salary for the exact same job is to a large extent
determined by your passport nationality. I grew up expecting it there; but it
always give me pause when encountering racism in a Western country.

~~~
ldd
Racism against Asians in North America is really puzzling. It is excessively
common to hear female acquaintances, even asian ones, say that they would
never date an asian guy. Compound this with comments that belittle asians in
movies, TV shows and in just about every conversation, I sometimes wonder why
they keep so quiet. Then I remember that racism is a complex and delicate
question, and that our society is still incapable of dealing with these issues
in 2015.

ps: As a child of bill 101, I do not really understand what you meant by that
comment about French in Quebec.

~~~
huac
You don't even need overtly racist comments in movies to satisfy a structural
system of racism. The absence of strong minority leads is enough - I can't
think of any Asian or Middle Eastern actors with strong leading roles in
America (unless they're really hot women serving as exotic temptresses, which
isn't really the same)

~~~
random_32467
Are people like Jet Li and Jackie Chan to stereotypical to count?

~~~
douche
There's other examples like Ken Jeong, Kal Penn, John Cho, and more.

Also the weird history of Asian actors playing Native Americans in Westerns...

~~~
potatolicious
I'll give you John Cho and Kal Penn.

But Ken Jeong? The guy whose biggest movie role to date is "Mr. Chow" in _The
Hangover_ , where he pranced about in tighty whities with an exaggerated
Chinese accent and making slow jerkoff motions?

The same Ken Jeong who infamously did this shoot with GQ?
[http://www.gq.com/gallery/ken-jeong-kate-upton-mens-slim-
cor...](http://www.gq.com/gallery/ken-jeong-kate-upton-mens-slim-corduroy-
pants)

Video if you're interested:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-hLYXqqgfAY](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-hLYXqqgfAY)

It's hard to perceive much of his work as anything but modern variations of
Long Duk Dong, ultimately I consider his work to have _added_ to Asian
stereotypes.

The guy is free to take the role he wants, but IMO as far as "actors
dismantling Asian stereotypes with their work" his career so far has been as
far from it as it gets.

------
kelukelugames
I moved to the US in 1992 at the age of 9. It took me more than a decade to
feel like an American. To feel like I belonged. Took just a few racist
comments from my co workers to take that feeling away. Yup, probationary
American at best.

~~~
zhemao
That really sucks, dude. I'm sorry your coworkers are such assholes. My
situation was similar. I came to the US in '94 when I was 3 years old. Being
one of very few Asian kids in mostly White schools was not fun. But
thankfully, I haven't personally experienced any overt racism since graduating
from high school.

~~~
potatolicious
Similar story for me here (8 years-old, 1994), but the sad thing is maybe his
coworkers _weren 't trying to be assholes_.

It doesn't even take something particularly racist to really bring things to a
distilled clarity - it's not that they hate you or hate your race, but the
realization that no matter what you do, what beer you drink, what work you do,
what organizations you work with, where you live, or anything else, _they will
never see you as an authentic American_.

(or in my case, Canadian, bah details)

That's the part that stings the most, not the vicious racists spewing hate at
me, but the knowledge that everyday, reasonable people will never fully accept
me as an authentic Canadian, and _they see no problem with it_.

------
analyst74
Racism against asians is delicate. It's not like overt and violent racisms
black people face, where it's easy to recognize and be dealt with.

Take one example.

If you denounce your own color, you are quickly accepted and praised for being
funny and unbiased; if you speak up about the injustices, you get labeled as
too sensitive, confrontational and quickly cast off.

It's funny to see so many Asian Americans hating their own kin, they just
unconsciously internalized those behaviours because doing so gives them social
credit.

~~~
chillacy
On this topic, I think Malcolm X had some wisdom on the phenomenon of self
hate and mental colonization.

> Who taught you to hate the texture of your hair? Who taught you to hate the
> color of your skin? To such extent you bleach, to get like the white man.
> Who taught you to hate the shape of your nose and the shape of your lips?
> Who taught you to hate yourself from the top of your head to the soles of
> your feet? Who taught you to hate your own kind? Who taught you to hate the
> race that you belong to so much so that you don't want to be around each
> other? No... Before you come asking Mr. Muhammad does he teach hate, you
> should ask yourself who taught you to hate being what God made you.

> You go into China and find a Chinese man that believes in Jesus and ask him
> to paint a picture, he’ll paint Jesus looking like a Chinese man. You go up
> to Alaska and find an Eskimo that believes in Jesus and ask him to paint a
> picture of Jesus, he’ll paint a picture of Jesus looking like an Eskimo. You
> come back here to America and find a white man that believes in Jesus he’ll
> paint Jesus looking like a white man. Go inside a Negro church who believes
> in Jesus and ask them to paint a picture of Jesus, they’ll paint a picture
> of Jesus looking like the white man. That’s what you call integration.

------
jmspring
Depending on where you live in the states, you can see many different
scenarios play out. California, specifically Silicon Valley, is definitely a
melting pot. I was born and raised in the Bay Area and have seen differing
scenarios play out.

During high school living in the East Bay, an african american friend (who
came from money) was regularly followed and occasionally pulled over because
he was in a nice car and driving through nice neighborhoods (where he lived).

Working in a semiconductor startup many moons ago, a lot of the Chinese
hardware engineers kept to themselves and didn't interact outside their group.

Living in Santa Cruz, the "minority" population is primarily Hispanic. I can't
speak to the schools, but many many keep to their groups and don't make an
effort to integrate into the community as a whole.

Maybe it is dual sided racism, but ethnic groups that live in large numbers
and don't become part of the overall community and instead build their own
island for me is just as problematic as a society that isn't open to others
joining and becoming part of the whole. This is not to say that culture and
history should not be preserved, practiced, etc. but moving somewhere and
excluding yourself from the community as a whole is also problematic.

~~~
IndianAstronaut
Everyone forgets the flip side of the integration problem. The majority group
needs to be welcoming of minority groups or else they will seek out their own.
Interracial friendships, dating, etc are still not the norm. A lot of that is
due to subtle exclusion of other groups.

~~~
jquery
> The majority group needs to be welcoming of minority groups

Can be hard when the minority group prefers to speak in a different language.
It's give-and-take. Often minority groups are just fine balkanizing instead of
making the effort to integrate. And the minorities are often walking a
tightrope between their parents and the majority culture which makes it hard
to bridge this gap. So they find it easier just finding people in the same
situation. That's why integration often takes generations, and typically takes
longer the larger the minority.

------
Torgo
I, like I suspect most Americans, do not see Arabs, Sikhs or Indians as
"Asian". Isn't this more of a Britishism?

~~~
takee
You do know that India is in Asia, right? Also, Sikhs more often than not are
Indians. Sikhism just like many of the world's other religions (Hinduism,
Buddhism, Jainism) was born in India.

~~~
douche
For Americans, "Asian" usually means the people we fought with or against in
the Pacific in WW2, Korea, or Vietnam.

For a significant fraction of Americans "Indian" evokes visions of cowboy
antagonists or casinos, rather than the Taj Mahal. That's not politically
correct, but that is what it is...

~~~
takee
Well, in that case this needs to change, because it is just not correct and
offends both "Indian" Indians and native americans.

------
eric-hu
This story hits close to home for me. Up until recently this year, I pointed
to many things in my life except myself as the reason for me not being a self-
actualized Asian American.

My internal heckles followed the pattern of "I'm XYZ, so I can't [fit in with
this social group, be attractive to her, etc]" where XYZ included:

\- too short

\- Asian

\- not interested in sports

\- a gamer

\- too poor/cheap

One day I realized I can't change how I feel at the moment, but I can choose
what to do in reaction. If I buy into the feeling's line of reasoning, I'm
keeping my situation the same. If I'm honest with myself, I'm usually not
thinking such things because I'm happy with the status quo.

Complaints about the status quo are useful if they lead to action, but until
then they're an energy sink.

------
digitalzombie
I grew up as the few asians in a hispanic/latino whatever neighborhood. Yeah,
there are racism when you're the minority.

There are racism everywhere, you learn real quick to either work with what you
got or cry about it. Maybe white have it better.

It doesn't matter, you work with what you got and ignore all the hater.
America can always be better but it does give you the ability to move up in
class wise and a great country.

Oh but you know what? I knew an Asian girl attending my university. She was
born in the 1990s, and her family photo is like a college text book. Bunch of
mixed races, white, black, asian, and hispanic. Turns out her uncles and aunts
marry outside of their race.

It's all good.

------
tn13
I am Indian. Honestly I don't really care about some white American calling me
cow worshiping heathen. (which I am).

What I find remarkable is the law and policies which are racist in nature.
Asian Americans are never considered a minority in the popular discourse where
as Blacks and Hispanics are considered as minority.

But given all that, I do think it is in America's interest to control who
comes to USA and who does not and there is nothing wrong in passing laws that
might prohibit any kind of migration to the country. What matters however is
that when a personal lawfully gets naturalized he/she must be treated as just
any other American.

------
rainhacker
Sadly, that uneasy agitation I felt after reading the article was mollified
when I read the experiences of others in the comments. I am not the only one,
not alone. Thank you for sharing your experiences.

------
beachstartup
> say that they would never date an asian guy

as an asian guy, let me just say that quite frankly, the solution to this is
to 1. be attractive, and 2. don't be unattractive. lift weights, dress well,
have cool hobbies, make money.

girls say a lot of things due to social pressure but when the chips are on the
table you can't negotiate attraction. it's subconscious.

~~~
huac
I mean...the point is that even the 'subconscious' is socially trained. In an
environment where every 'People's Sexiest Man Alive' is white 30 years running
(fine, Denzel got a token shoutout), where your only Asians in movies are
comic relief or simply straight up belittled, there is a very real Eurocentric
training.

And what constitutes a cool hobby? If attraction is subconscious (or love at
first sight?), what does it matter if I play semi-pro badminton vs semi-pro
lacrosse?

There is much more at work than 'being attractive' when that standard of
beauty's defined by forces way outside your control.

~~~
yarou
The harsh reality of our society is that as your earning capability increases
as a male, your pool of potential partners increases dramatically.

I don't buy the whole (no pun intended) "get a hobby, start improving
yourself" mantra either, because I know that the sexual marketplace is just as
rational as any other.

Nothing makes you more attractive to a woman than the double which represents
your bank account balance. There are of course external signifiers which
communicate this information.[0]

Or, to use the vernacular:

"I ain't saying she a gold digger, but she ain't messing with no broke
niggas"[1]

[0]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conspicuous_consumption](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conspicuous_consumption)

[1] [http://genius.com/Kanye-west-gold-digger-lyrics](http://genius.com/Kanye-
west-gold-digger-lyrics)

~~~
oldmanjay
> Nothing makes you more attractive to a woman than the double which
> represents your bank account balance.

Not really on topic but it is a teachable moment; You should always use fixed
point math to deal with currency. Floating point math is not consistently
accurate and should never be used.

~~~
deciplex
If banks often don't bother with it I don't see why anyone else should have to
:-)

------
happyscrappy
I am not sure of the point here. I think we have to help those that need help
first, I mean what are we going to do start pushing for increased aid for
those of Irish descent.

~~~
qiqing
People often forget that systemic racism against Asian Americans is also
racism. That's part of the point. That you can do everything right and have
things go reasonably well, but have it all taken away from you because of the
color of your skin.

Like the physicist who was innocent but had his family dragged through an
espionage trial because the officials didn't even bother to consult experts in
the field.

~~~
it_learnses
I'm not sure if that was necessarily racism though. I think because China is
now seen more and more as an enemy and the professor was born in China, maybe
that's why. Not excusing the the FBI, just questioning whether racism was at
play. What if it had been a white Russian scientist? Would it have been
different?

~~~
Apocryphon
Does that happen to Russian scientists in America often, though? Because there
is precedence for baseless accusations against professors from China:

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wen_Ho_Lee](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wen_Ho_Lee)

Though to be fair, there is also precedence of actual cases of espionage:

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Chinese_spy_cases_in_t...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Chinese_spy_cases_in_the_United_States)

~~~
kelukelugames
_Though to be fair, there is also precedence of actual cases of espionage_

This is literally the definition of racial profiling.

