
A 140-Acre Forest Is About to Materialize in the Middle of Detroit - kdazzle
http://www.theatlanticcities.com/neighborhoods/2013/10/140-acre-forest-about-materialize-middle-detroit/7371/
======
ChuckMcM
Personally I think this is an excellent idea. If nothing else growing
hardwords on unused land at least puts it to use. The fact that they are going
to leave all of the streets in place means it is going to become quite strange
to drive around in. When I was growing up in Vegas, before it covered the
valley, aggressive developers had gone out and put in streets where "new
developments" would someday be, and driving around had that weird feeling of
sort of a maze race track. Hansel and Gretel probably will feel right at home
:-).

~~~
mooreds
I wonder who will be responsible for maintaining the streets? My guess is that
will still fall on the city of Detroit (because the farm is paying taxes).

~~~
toomuchtodo
They could always let them go back to gravel roads; _much_ cheaper to
maintain, and if they're just for traversing through the hardwoods "forest",
your top speed should be no more than ~20 mph.

------
fjk
This isn't a forest. It's a for-profit business that happens to be a farm in
the middle of a major city.

That said, I'm really excited about this. The project is removing blight and
contributing much needed tax dollars to the city.

~~~
snogglethorpe
Is "for-profit" incompatible with "forest"? It certainly doesn't seem to
be....

~~~
ChuckMcM
Of course not, you need only drive around the managed forests in Oregon to see
some. (and it really tweeks your brain to see a forest where all the trees are
exactly the same age for the most part!)

~~~
Turing_Machine
Obligatory video:

[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SQobzdCNDgQ](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SQobzdCNDgQ)

Before anyone freaks out, note that (as ChuckMcM said) all these trees are
almost exactly the same size/age. This isn't an old-growth forest -- it's a
lot closer to harvesting a field of corn.

~~~
wuliwong
Did you actually think that they were somehow planting an "old-growth" forest?

~~~
Turing_Machine
What made you think that? I said nothing of the sort.

Judging from the comments on the video, there are plenty of people who do.

------
jlgreco
> _" planting 15,000 trees, and mowing regularly."_

I guess the idea behind the mowing is that you want to prevent the weeds from
choking out the saplings? Otherwise "mowing" and "forest" seem kind of
mutually exclusive to me.

~~~
jerf
In this area, if you just let some land go that started as grassland, in the
first couple of years it will be mostly weeds, then for the next several years
it will become overrun by shrubs, such as [1]. At the height of this phase,
the land is essentially uncrossable on foot, covered with 10-15 foot tall
sharp, spiky plants that are not very hard compared to most wood, but
certainly much harder than your skin.

Over the next couple of decades, the trees will start getting a foothold,
starting with the faster growing trees, which crowd out all the nasty shrubs
but still produce a dense group of small little trees just barely spaced out
enough for an adult to get through, then eventually stabilizing on oaks and
the other very tall, hard trees, culminating in what one traditionally
considers a "forest", something you can walk through because it's mostly very
large, mature trees spaced dozens of feet apart. This will take a century or
two to progress to the final stable state, depending on how tenacious the
smaller trees are.

But if you want to jump straight to that and avoid the middle bit, it takes
some maintenance. I assume the promise is a combination of a promise to do
that maintenance, and probably to maintain some trails through it.

I could have sworn I learned a term in school for this sort of "biome
progression" to what I thought was the "terminal biome" (the final, stable
biome that results) but Google does not agree. Anyone who remembers their
biology better than I, I'd be much obliged for the term.

[1]:
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elaeagnus_angustifolia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elaeagnus_angustifolia)

~~~
o_s_m
Given a few years, softwoods (pines - fast growing) will grow, then hardwoods
(oak/hickory - slow growing) will begin to appear in abundance. Hardwoods are
more valuable, but softwoods grow quickly and have less market value.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secondary_forest](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secondary_forest)

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old-
growth_forest](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old-growth_forest)

I think the term you were looking for was a "climax community."

~~~
jerf
Bingo.

I see Google says the idea has fallen out of favor, though even when I was
taught it I was taught that the oak trees will still fall, creating clearings,
which then march back through the same progression, so even then it was only
notionally "climax".

~~~
o_s_m
I hope the company is interested in harvesting the hardwoods, which will allow
for more biodiversity, less ecological disruption, and a more aesthetically
pleasing environment. Hiking through a constantly harvested pine tree forest
is not very enjoyable. In any case, letting nature do its thing, somewhat, is
better than having delapidated houses strewn all over the place.

------
malandrew
I would really love it if they took this a step further. Instead of buying a
big block that can become a massive park like Central Park in NYC or Golden
Gate Park in San Francisco. It would be more interesting if they created a
"graph" of park nodes linked by park edges so that there isn't a separation
between the two. For an example of what such a project could look like check
out this proposal for the city of São Paulo called Ecos na Paisagem:

[http://www.flickr.com/photos/12588351@N02/sets/7215762319266...](http://www.flickr.com/photos/12588351@N02/sets/72157623192662899/show)

Additionally, Park Avenue was on e an example of this when it used to be a
park that stretched from Central Park to Battery Park:

[http://stuffnobodycaresabout.com/2011/05/27/old-new-york-
in-...](http://stuffnobodycaresabout.com/2011/05/27/old-new-york-in-photos-4/)

~~~
justincormack
Park Avenue is interesting but I would like to see a picture not one saying
"this is not it".

~~~
malandrew
It's remarkably hard to find images of what it used to look like. I've seen
some before. Here's what one section looked like in the 1870s when the
railroad run underneath it:

[http://www.iridetheharlemline.com/wp-
content/uploads/2010/05...](http://www.iridetheharlemline.com/wp-
content/uploads/2010/05/f1.jpg)

Here's park avenue in the 1920s:

[http://screencast.com/t/7GRMhOzq](http://screencast.com/t/7GRMhOzq)

Park Avenue (used to be 4th Avenue) has probably changed more than most
Avenues in NYC. Here are some images of when railroads ran down it.

[http://ephemeralnewyork.wordpress.com/2013/01/28/three-
views...](http://ephemeralnewyork.wordpress.com/2013/01/28/three-views-of-
park-avenue-in-the-east-50s/)

You may also enjoy seeing these photos of the NYC mansions from back in the
day:

[http://ny.curbed.com/archives/2012/02/09/looking_back_at_man...](http://ny.curbed.com/archives/2012/02/09/looking_back_at_manhattans_lost_gilded_age_mansions.php)

------
pg
If someone could post a link to a Google Maps view of the area, that would be
interesting to see.

~~~
evmar
This article has a map:
[http://www.freep.com/article/20131018/BUSINESS06/310180105](http://www.freep.com/article/20131018/BUSINESS06/310180105)

I grabbed that address and plugged it into Google Maps, so the pin here is the
northern corner:
[https://www.google.com/maps/preview#!q=Mack+%26+St.+Jean%2C+...](https://www.google.com/maps/preview#!q=Mack+%26+St.+Jean%2C+Detroit%2C+MI&data=!1m4!1m3!1d16228!2d-82.980734!3d42.3695785!2m1!1e3!4m15!2m14!1m13!1s0x8824d46395a86267%3A0x1855ad08de3d9a8a!3m8!1m3!1d18983!2d-122.3926051!3d37.7913156!3m2!1i1215!2i1156!4f13.1!4m2!3d42.3791293!4d-82.97854&fid=7)

Edit: and according to Google Maps, "Indian Village" (home of the developer)
is literally the southwestern edge of the area.

PS: I know nothing about Detroit, this is all just looking at a map.

~~~
ChuckMcM
Ok, I had the weird experience of looking at the street view map, wanting to
move forward and just, out of habit, used the WASD keys and damn if they
didn't work just like they "should". Reminded me of the first time I used
vi(1) and wanted to move the cursor and went with the rogue(7) keys and that
just worked. Games as usability training tools for the win I guess.

~~~
GeneralMayhem
Vi and Rogue were both influenced by the hardware of the old ADM terminals,
which had the arrows printed on HJKL.

------
Alex3917
For comparison, NYC currently has about 30,000 acres of public parks, and a
several thousand acres of privately owned open space on top of that. The
amount of parkland in NYC is greater than the total amount of land in most
cities, period.

------
keiferski
[http://www.hantzfarmsdetroit.com/](http://www.hantzfarmsdetroit.com/)

------
Apocryphon
I'm wondering that if all of the spotlight on Detroit will also lead to enough
canny entrepreneurs trying to revive it for a buck, leading to a phoenix-like
(or Alex Murphy-like) resurgence a few decades down the road.

Will Detroit be the hot new startup city of 2045?

~~~
blahedo
Quite possibly, and for a very important and underrated reason: the fights
over water are already starting and are going to get bigger and nastier over
the next few decades, but the cities on the shores of the largest freshwater
supply in the world will be sitting pretty. Detroit may have to spend its
forty years in the wilderness (rather more literally than that phrase is
usually used), but there's really no question about it coming back eventually.
Not with all that fresh water close at hand.

~~~
jlgreco
> _the fights over water are already starting and are going to get bigger and
> nastier over the next few decades_

What do you mean by this? Cities in North America tend to be on rivers, and
isolated poor location choices (Las Vegas, Phoenix, a few CA cities, etc)
don't translate to problems in other cities since they are on different
aquifer. As far as I can tell, there is no threat to the water supply in most
American cities. Egypt/Ethiopia's little water spat doesn't threaten water
supplies elsewhere, fresh water isn't really a commodity like oil or iron is.
If it was, there would be a killing to be made in fresh water arbitrage.

~~~
Dylan16807
Even if water was scarce in the US, it wouldn't be a problem in the US, at
least in terms of residential use. Desalination costs less than a dollar per
cubic meter, and a quick calculation based on existing pipelines gives me a
price of about half a dollar to pipe that a thousand miles.

For comparison, water today, where I live, costs slightly under a dollar per
cubic meter. So even if my calculation was off by an order of magnitude,
desalinated water would be a reasonable option for all US households, well
under other budget items like cost of food.

Industry that depends on cheap water might be different, but how much of that
is stuck in places without good water supply?

~~~
Apocryphon
What do you think about all of the dystopian scenarios with LA running out of
water?

~~~
ghshephard
LA sits very close to the ocean, and at the same elevation. Desalinated water
using current technology costs $0.75/cubic meter (recycled water even less),
and your average person uses 100 cubic meters a year. So, we're looking at a
cost per person of about $6/month for water. With conservation you could
easily get that down to $3/month.

------
andrewflnr

      The company has committed to... mowing regwlarly
    

I was a lot more excited before I read this. What's the point of a forest if
you have to mow it? Seriously, though, sounds like a good idea.

~~~
pmorici
I can't speak for that area specifically but I used to work at a county forest
preserve during my summers in college. Typically when you are trying to
restore a natural environment it takes a bit of work to make sure invasive
species don't turn your forest into a bramble patch. One particularly common
invasive species is Buckthorn that will choke out more desirable trees like
Oaks which grow slowly. Mowing is one way that keeps the undesirable invasive
species from taking over

[http://www.dnr.state.mn.us/invasives/terrestrialplants/woody...](http://www.dnr.state.mn.us/invasives/terrestrialplants/woody/buckthorn/index.html)

------
philipn
There's some more info on the Detroit LocalWiki here -
[http://detroitwiki.org/Hantz_Farms](http://detroitwiki.org/Hantz_Farms). When
I asked my friend about it, he responded with "long story."

------
wuliwong
It's amazing how many people are hung up on the "mowing" part of this. First,
who cares? It's such a minor point. Second, this land is surrounded by
neighborhoods with sidewalks (and even has homes interspersed between land
parcels). Certainly, they should maintain the landscape near the sidewalks and
adjacent lots that they don't own. It seems reasonable that the maintenance
would include mowing. And maybe there's even more "mowing" than that but this
obvious explanation is enough to justify their "mowing" comment.

------
logn
Detroit should also invest in city parks of this size. For instance, the city
of Cincinnati has benefited greatly from an abundance of large parks:

[http://www.cincinnatiparks.com/history-master-
plan](http://www.cincinnatiparks.com/history-master-plan)

One well-known park came about after the purchase of a vineyard from Nicholas
Longworth:

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eden_Park_%28Cincinnati%29](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eden_Park_%28Cincinnati%29)

------
zenocon
I live not far from here, and drive by it every day. The rapid pace of change
in the city limits is unprecedented...in the last 3 years, perhaps. This city
is rebuilding itself quickly after lying stagnant since the 1960s.

------
beloch
I hope the city has budgeted for adequate police coverage. Otherwise, they're
building New Sherwood forest!

------
arbuge
And this is how cities return to the land. Or at least, it's one way.

------
Nux
Wish every city did this.

~~~
jlgreco
Doing this is sort of like getting a robotic limb. I mean sure, a cybernetic
arm may be really cool and futuristic... but it means your real arm got
chopped off. They are carving this thing out of blighted urban decay. An urban
forest may be nice, but what leads up to it is not the sort of thing that you
want in your city.

This isn't to say that I'm not happy for them; I just don't want to find
myself in the same situation.

~~~
andrewflnr
You may as well argue against having parks because one happened to have been
built on similar ground. This instance might just have been recovering from a
bad situation, but that doesn't mean it's a bad idea in general. Granted, it
would be better to set aside space for it at the planning stage.

~~~
jlgreco
> _This isn 't to say that I'm not happy for them; I just don't want to find
> myself in the same situation_

I'm not arguing against this happening, I am _happy_ they are improving their
city. All I'm saying is that I hope I never find my citing in a position where
we say _" whelp, we have massive chunks of deserted unkempt land, lets knock
down these abandoned condemned buildings and make a forest"_. While that
action is an _improvement_ , being in that position in the first place implies
a shitty situation all around.

Kind of like how somebody getting a new fancy robot arm is _great_ , but I
certainly don't want to get one myself because that would imply that I had
lost my arm.

~~~
andrewflnr
You seem to have missed my point. Hypothetically, you don't need to be in that
same situation to have a forest in your city.

