
iOS 11 Location Privacy: "Only While Using" is now always an option for users - runesoerensen
https://twitter.com/tfoil2/status/872169336319782912
======
DavideNL
I really like Apples pro-privacy stance, in contrary to Google & Microsoft.

Hopefully sometime soon Apple will also encrypt iCloud contents so data from
non-american people (europe in my case) is protected against the US government
prying eyes.

Our data/privacy seems pretty well protected inside Europe, but in America we
seem to have 0 privacy rights (America first...!)

~~~
arprocter
>contrary to Google

My Android phone worked out my home and work location without me telling it.
That was a bit weird.

~~~
BoorishBears
Every time I switch back to Android tricks like that are actually kind of
nifty (but not enough to get me to stay for long).

My colleague was really impressed by Google Photo's automatic indexing of
pictures being able to find the most obscure objects in pictures

~~~
Sidnicious
iOS does that too — on-device! — but as a result may not identify as many
obscure objects. Seems to handle common ones well, though.

~~~
BoorishBears
That sums up most of iOS's ML-ish features vs Android, slightly less
impressive, but on-device so privacy is improved

------
659087
I'm leaning towards picking up an iPhone next, just to show some support for
the solid pro-privacy stance Apple has taken in recent times. Uber isn't going
to be happy with this at all, and that's a great thing.

~~~
Quenz
Why would Uber be unhappy?

~~~
djrogers
Recently Uber updated their app to track and report users' locations even when
the app was not being used.

~~~
technofiend
This is why IOS needs profiles. It's that or you just uninstall the app after
each use, which is a pain.

~~~
allendoerfer
We could try to build a network to deliver applications, which would stop when
you close them. We only need a system to map names to ips and some standards
for protocols. We could even run them in a sandbox for security. Would be
awesome.

~~~
jackskell
I'd like to specify whether an app runs over my VPN on an app-by-app basis.

Maps and Pandora, no, browser and email, yes.

------
gigatexal
Fantastic. Screw Uber for only having the option to always use or never use.

~~~
tfoil2
Screw any app that really thinks it needs my precise coordinates in the
foreground, let alone the background. Turn-by-turn directions in maps is the
only exception I've found in 10 years of iPhone use.

~~~
3pt14159
I want to be tracked by Google. I went out of my way to turn it on in iPhone.
My location is leaked to cell towers and by what wifi network I'm connecting
through anyway, and I'd rather be able to figure out which cool restaurant I
went to months after my visit to Vilnius is over.

Plus my memory of my personal life is so unreliable, especially if I don't
have any context, so if I'm ever in court I'd like to be able to share exactly
where I was when I was there.

I've stopped thinking that real privacy is attainable. That being said, I
refuse to share it with scummy companies like Uber.

~~~
gvurrdon
I've been using this for precisely the reasons you mention:

[https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/where-have-i-
been/id64155398...](https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/where-have-i-
been/id641553983?mt=8)

Google's location history is excellent and I'd gladly pay for an equivalent
application which I could self-host and set up with the minimum of hassle, but
having them do it creeps me out too much. I've not managed to work out how to
get OwnTracks to substitute fully for it.

~~~
seanp2k2
Awesome, thanks for the link. I had been using Moves by ProtoGeo
[https://appsto.re/us/PNDwE.i](https://appsto.re/us/PNDwE.i) and it's not very
accurate. Still good for going back and remembering that awesome random place
you found on vacation after the fact so you can recommend it.

I also wish the NSA had something like a personal data explore, but I know
that will never happen.

~~~
gvurrdon
Unfortunately I've not found WHIB to be enormously accurate either, but it
does well enough. The main nuisance is interpreting having paused whilst
walking past an establishment has having gone in it. Even Google's version
couldn't get this right, at least in my case.

------
dingo_bat
This is amazing. I hope Google takes a lesson from this for Android o. I
manually deny location permission to uber after every ride.

~~~
bad_user
Google's own apps are crippled when you disable " _location history_ ", e.g:
[https://support.google.com/accounts/answer/3118687?hl=en](https://support.google.com/accounts/answer/3118687?hl=en)

So I wouldn't hold my breath.

------
runesoerensen
Relevant HN discussion for context
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13085098](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13085098)

Related screenshots:

* Uber requesting location access: [https://twitter.com/joeduvall4/status/872007928844345344](https://twitter.com/joeduvall4/status/872007928844345344)

* Apps using background location now displayed more prominently: [https://twitter.com/ow/status/872145515386982400](https://twitter.com/ow/status/872145515386982400)

~~~
tfoil2
Next battle: getting Apple to give users more granular Location controls.
Almost NO App really needs precise GPS. "within a mile" or city or zip code or
other fuzzier locations should be fine for most apps. Users should have a
better trade-off than exact or nothing.

~~~
weeks
Android 1.0 had this via ACCESS_COARSE_LOCATION, unfortunately Android only
recently got runtime permissions.

~~~
matt4077
Apple still has it:
[https://developer.apple.com/library/content/documentation/Pe...](https://developer.apple.com/library/content/documentation/Performance/Conceptual/EnergyGuide-
iOS/LocationBestPractices.html#//apple_ref/doc/uid/TP40015243-CH24-SW1)

~~~
tfoil2
Right, but this is at developer discretion. I always want to see user-level
control for privacy-enhancing features.

------
micheljansen
This is great. There are a lot of apps that are a hassle to use, because I
have to enable/disable their location access before/after using them to
protect my privacy and battery. Looking at you Waze et al.

~~~
jquast
I've uninstalled Waze multiple times, being reminded that it has been
accessing my location in the background while sitting at home relaxing always
upset me.

~~~
dghughes
But it's a map app thats its nature.

~~~
allover
There's no good reason it should do so when backgrounded.

~~~
natch
>There's no good reason it should do so when backgrounded.

Wrong, and it's especially irksome that just because you cannot think of a
good reason, you leap to the unfounded conclusion that there is no good
reason.

When you are driving and not using the app and not even thinking about the
fact that you have the app, and not planning to use it, it can still be
gathering useful traffic information to help route other users according to
the current conditions on the route you are traveling. By the way this takes a
super negligible amount of power because it can piggyback its use of system
services (location, data transmission, etc.) on top of other already running
services.

~~~
seanp2k2
Then explain that to users and let them decide what they want to share instead
of opting everyone in by default with no choice to opt out (this is really
more "forcing" than "opting" if there is no option).

~~~
natch
I think you're getting confused here.

There is no opting everyone in by default for location on iOS. They have to
explicitly opt themselves in, if they want to. Otherwise they are opted out by
default. This goes for all apps and is enforced by Apple in order to maintain
a good experience for the user.

------
apexalpha
I hope this comes to Android. I always thought it worked like this until
someone showed me:
[https://www.google.com/maps/timeline?pb](https://www.google.com/maps/timeline?pb)

I see way more locations and rides than I actually navigated to with Maps. For
most of the time, it is just installed.

I now manually disable all location services.

~~~
nolok
There is a specific option to let them do that. It's accessible both from your
phone and web browser. It appears on the very first page of it, that you
linked to, at the bottom, "pause location history", in a big box the same size
as the other major points, it's even listed before the list of your known
"common locations" such as home and work.

I'm not saying it shouldn't be opt in rather than opt out, it should, but
that's still a far way away from hiding it from the user.

PS: I'm a very big user of permanent location history and it's a feature I
enjoy, I would actually like to make it more granular / precise with more
regular updating of my position if possible.

------
breatheoften
Yay! I almost always use lyft now because Uber only allowed the "always
on/never" location options. Occasionally I'd be somewhere where Uber was the
only option and it was annoying to go into location services and manually
perform what should be a system function ...

~~~
pthreads
I wouldn't even turn it on when Uber was the only option. I would enter the
street address manually.

------
HugThem
I wish there was a way to make apps only able to do _anything_ when I use them
and _nothing_ when I don't use them.

~~~
otterley
I believe there is. Simply go to Settings and turn off Background App Refresh
for that app.

~~~
tfoil2
Yes, turning Background App Refresh off goes a long way toward achieving this
(and saving battery). Even with Background App Refresh turned off though, some
activities may continue, particularly Location, audio, voice, and the like
[[https://developer.apple.com/library/content/documentation/iP...](https://developer.apple.com/library/content/documentation/iPhone/Conceptual/iPhoneOSProgrammingGuide/BackgroundExecution/BackgroundExecution.html)].
This is why it's Location "While Using" is important. It also looks from OP's
comment
[[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14502423](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14502423)]
that (some of?) these features will be more prominently displayed to users.
This is good, users should have complete knowledge and control of their
devices, particularly as it affects privacy.

------
yakult
Do apps still have access to location history data? If so this is a
nothingburger.

~~~
c517402
Exactly my question. Buried deep in location services is a frequently visited
locations that apps have access to even if they only have access "only while
using."

[http://www.iphonehacks.com/2016/10/how-to-turn-off-hidden-
fe...](http://www.iphonehacks.com/2016/10/how-to-turn-off-hidden-feature-
iphone-secretly-tracking-everywhere-you-go.html)

~~~
Sephiroth87
I'm pretty sure 3rd party apps don't have access to that data anyway...

------
NietTim
Awesome! I never ever turn on location, but this one app requires it, and
there is no way to set it to 'only while using', got annoyed and now I toggle
it, not ideal. This is great.

------
rem1313
Yes, finally!! Can't wait for the final version

------
ksk
While this is an awesome feature, they're also going to start disabling 32bit
apps that I paid for, and use regularly. Damn!

~~~
simonh
It is annoying. My kids play some games on their phones I downloaded back in
2009. Lemonade art and is one. The game doesn't even appear on the App Store
anymore and only works with older versions of iOS, but if your phone is
compatible you can still download it from the 'Purchased Apps' section.

All that will go away, but on the other hand I really don't expect them to
support 32bit apps forever. You always have the option of simply not upgrading
iOS. It's a trade off.

~~~
ksk
>You always have the option of simply not upgrading iOS. It's a trade off.

Unfortunately, Apple gives you no way to opt-out of updates. I've figured out
a way to block them at the firewall level, which seems to work, for now.

~~~
eridius
Apple doesn't force updates. You can simply ignore the OTA update. I believe
you'll get prompted again every time a new update is released, but hitting
"Ignore" occasionally is a small price to pay.

~~~
ksk
>Apple doesn't force updates.

Constant popups _are_ the means to force updates. In addition they also throw
up a nagware screen where they trick you to enter your pin to schedule
updates. Apple employs several dark patterns, on iOS, and also on MacOS to
trick the user and its rather sad to see them follow MS/FB/Google.

>I believe you'll get prompted again every time a new update is released,

That is not true. They do it multiple times for the same update. Look, I
wouldn't care if they were simply security updates, but Apple updates bloat up
and slow down the phone over time. On top of that, what makes it even more
egregious is that they make it impossible for me to downgrade, and go back to
a state where the phone was working just fine and I was happy with it.

>but hitting "Ignore" occasionally is a small price to pay.

You make it sound like its once in a year. Unfortunately, Apple constantly
nags you to the point where, unless you're constantly looking out for it, its
easy to accidentally hit the wrong button. Its sad that they have had to
resort to tricking the user to drive their update stats.

~~~
eridius
> _Apple employs several dark patterns_

Bullshit.

They show an alert saying something like "A new version of the OS is
available." [Update] [Ignore].

That's not a dark pattern. It's easy to just Ignore. I have a number of
development devices using older versions of the OS and I've never had _any_
problem avoiding updates.

> _On top of that, what makes it even more egregious is that they make it
> impossible for me to downgrade_

That's mostly the fault of the baseband.

> _Apple constantly nags you to the point where, unless you 're constantly
> looking out for it, its easy to accidentally hit the wrong button._

This is just flat-out wrong.

> _Its sad that they have had to resort to tricking the user to drive their
> update stats._

And this is actually fairly offensive.

~~~
ksk
You are simply dead wrong. There is nothing I can say further, and have no
wish to expend efforts to convince you otherwise.

------
crsmith
To users, will this affect location-based actions? (Like Google Inbox
delivering an email upon arrival to a location.)

~~~
sib
Yes, it may, depending on the use case - so we will have to do a better job
convincing users that there is value in allowing the use of location "at all
times"...

------
deagle50
Nice, I might start using Uber again.

------
hprotagonist
i bet uber is _thrilled_.

------
winteriscoming
I like all the new things coming in iOS11, including this. I recently got my
first iPhone and it's on iOS10. Do users like me get to upgrade just the OS on
the same handset when they release iOS11? I haven't found the answer to this
on some of the apple articles I have browsed.

~~~
tfoil2
Yes, upgrades are always free, and new iOS versions are typically supported on
several generations of older devices.

~~~
0x0
While iOS upgrades are usually free these days, it hasn't always been like
this. According to wikipedia, iOS 1.1.3 was a paid upgrade on iPod Touches
(while being a free upgrade for iPhones).

~~~
k-mcgrady
The first few upgrades were paid for tax reasons as far as I remember. And
then after a few versions they were able to change that.

~~~
kalleboo
And only on the iPod touch, not on the iPhone. They also had to charge for a
WiFi update on MacBooks for "accounting reasons".

~~~
k-mcgrady
Yeah I think the iPhone got around it because people were already paying
monthly for it.

