
Young men dropping out of the job market to spend time in an alternate reality - my_first_acct
https://www.1843magazine.com/features/escape-to-another-world
======
laughfactory
It's not just video games either. Add Netflix and social media, and soon, VR,
to the equation, and it's pretty clear that the game of life offers
insufficient rewards relative to one's efforts. I don't believe we ended up
here due to some grand conspiracy, but I do think that the top 1% have gotten
so skilled at trapping wealth and therefore opportunity that it's really
screwing over everyone else. Even as a relatively successful adult who doesn't
game (no time for it, and I avoid things I know are addictive) I felt the game
is rigged. Most of us have gotten to the point that we literally never expect
to retire (though we will literally run into some physical constraints at some
point when our bodies and minds begin to fail us). So we grind through work,
pay our bills, and hope to God we don't get cancer or Alzheimer's. When life
seems so unrewarding, it's unsurprising that many seek refuge in games and
other entertainment (Netflix, social media, news feeds, etc)...

Any way you slice it this is not going to end well. Essentially we're in a
Great Depression of an entirely new sort.

~~~
zxcvvcxz
> I don't believe we ended up here due to some grand conspiracy,

> but I do think that the top 1% have gotten so skilled at trapping wealth and
> therefore opportunity that it's really screwing over everyone else.

I've got news people: the top 1% is not forcing you to watch Netflix, consume
social media, or strap a VR headset on.

We live in a generation absolutely devoid of personal responsibility. And it's
why ideas that would easily be dismissed as Marxist (which masquerade as
"post-modern") 30+ years ago are on the rise today.

 _Oh, you 're just oppressed._

 _Economic growth is over, we have to redistribute things now._

 _It 's not you're fault that you're addicted. Here, take this medication
every day._

Where's the hard work in today's generation? Where's the personal
responsibility? Where's the discipline? Where's the can-do attitude?

And let's get straight-to-the-point on the article in question. Nobody cares
about men whining. It's just reality. Call it politically incorrect, whatever.
If you're a man and don't work to get what you think you deserve, you won't
get it. Instead, there's just gonna be more single women and more jobs
available for those that do choose to compete.

~~~
nunez
I completely agree with this.

My immediate family and I came from having next to nothing. We busted ass and
have money now. We aren't rich, but we're enjoying life in ways we couldn't
growing up.

If we, instead, believed the rhetoric that life is screwed unless you came out
of a "lucky vagina," we would still be broke, in Brooklyn, trying to make ends
meet, and I would be another socially-inept dude that spends way too much time
on games and "computers."

It's not just us either. I graduated with a bunch of people who came from
similar situations and are now doing great.

Life is what you make of it.

~~~
Aeolun
Confirmation bias?

Just because it worked for you, doesn't mean there aren't a thousand people
who tried and failed at exactly the same thing.

Your chances are definitely higher than zero if you try, but unfortunately
it's no guarantee that you'll succeed.

~~~
greenhatman
There is no guarantee for anything. That is not a reason not to try.

There is literally nothing better to do with your life than try. So just try.

~~~
mfukar
This is the same kind of "advice" depressed people get. "Have you tried
getting better"? "You just need to be happy". "Try my coping mechanism". "See
a standup comedian". "Just try".

I hope I don't have to go through all the reasons this is fundamentally
disconnected from the problem described in the article now.

~~~
nunez
What's your alternative?

~~~
mfukar
Professional therapy.

~~~
georgiecasey
what if that doesn't work?

~~~
mfukar
I'm not prepared for this hypothetical, who knows what I would do, I guess I
might even launch a startup.

------
peckrob
I've watched this happen to my friends.

One that I graduated high school with in particular comes to mind. We all
played video games back then. Half Life, Goldeneye, Starcraft, Everquest, etc.
He was a smart guy, driven, usually made better grades than me (I was lazy in
high school). Took a job at an medical supply company after graduating from
high school intending to work for a few months before starting college.

Well, when it came time to start school, he tried to balance work, school and
an ever increasing amount of time in front of the TV or computer playing games
... and failed. Dropped out of school after one semester. Got an apartment
with a couple of his coworkers where they would mostly play games when they
weren't working. I went over a few times. It was depressing to watch. You
really want to say, "Dude, is this really what you want to do?"

Spent seven years working that same job stocking shelves and spent the rest of
the time drinking and playing whatever the newest game was that month. He'd
message me at like 12am asking if I was playing anything and I'd be like,
nope, studying. He'd type "LOL" (back in the AIM days).

When World of Warcraft came out, he was instantly drawn into the WoW universe.
He'd stay up all night playing. Broke up with his girlfriend because he was
playing WoW literally every waking moment. Started being late to work,
eventually lost his job and lost his apartment (I'm guessing his coworkers
asked him to leave when he couldn't pay rent). Moved back in with his parents
and still, just ... gaming. All the time. He'd just spend whole days sitting
in front of WoW or some other video game. For three years that was all he did.

Eventually, his parents had to _SHUT OFF THEIR INTERNET_ and have an
intervention to reach him. Obviously I don't know the full story of what
happened, but after that he did start to pull it together.

Got back into school at 29 and just recently graduated with a business degree.
He's managed to "stay clean from games" (his exact words, BTW) for the last
seven years. I can't imagine what an immense struggle that must be considering
how ubiquitous they are now.

All told he lost more than 10 years of his life.

The whole time I'm looking on at this and thinking, if he was drinking, we
would call this alcoholism. But what do we call it when it's video games?

~~~
Aeolun
Lost? I'm not certain I'd put it like that. I'm assuming he at least enjoyed
playing games all that time.

~~~
a3n
Yes, lost, because "normally" you'd gain something in those ten years that you
could put into the coming years: money/savings, job experience which gives you
a firmer hold on a self-sustaining life, relationships.

------
firstpost1234
Hard to blame anyone for spending their time doing things where success is
quantifiable and quickly displayed.

This is the Western countries' version of hikkikomori and there will only be
more of it as education and good opportunities become out of reach for more
people.

Men seem more likely to do this than women because of the societal pressures
on them to get a job and run the rat race of dating and climbing a nonexistent
corporate ladder.

For those people living in major job centers or major job creation industries
it seems unfathomable, but there is an entire American generation out there
experiencing this, being told that they're not shit if they don't go to
college and work a 9 to 5 (which really is more of a 9 to 9). I don't blame
them for opting out of such useless propaganda. Not everyone enjoys or is
interested in computer programming, and starting your career in your 20s
without an inherently marketable skill is terrifying for most people.

~~~
pbkhrv
> and starting your career in your 20s without an inherently marketable skill
> is terrifying for most people

Not as terrifying as starting your career in your 40s without an inherently
marketable skill because 20s and 30s were spent playing video games...

~~~
flukus
But you get some points for being mature because you're no longer the type to
get drunk on weeknights and call in sick to work. This isn't always deserved
though.

------
xor1
>Game designers often deploy a technique called “dynamic difficulty
adjustment”. In many games, the software assesses a player’s skill and
rebalances various attributes of the game accordingly, to keep the game fun
and manageable for those of less ability. Gamers early in their careers, or
who are simply struggling to pick up the skills necessary to succeed, are
given a helping hand; their world might be more generously strewn with useful
power-ups, for instance. As players advance, these helping hands are
withdrawn.

This sounds really silly, but I honestly consider being thrown into the deep-
end when learning how to play Tribes 1 (I started playing in 1999) and DOTA
(started 2004) as a child greatly benefited my overall mindset and attitude as
I grew older.

I think I qualify as a videogame addict. I've probably spent more than 1/3 of
my waking hours since I was nine years old gaming. I'm approaching 5000 hours
on DOTA2 alone since 2011, though I've played significantly less games in
general within the past three years due to finally being employed. Programming
feels just as good, and I get paid on top of it.

I think my social development was stunted, but I feel like I'm mostly normal
now as an adult. I really don't have any regrets, and I plan to give my kids
completely unrestricted access to their own computer and the internet as soon
as they want it, barring any laws or regulations that prevent me from doing so
legally.

~~~
captain_crabs
I have pretty much the exact same experience with Dota. I think there's one
thing it teaches better than any other game that's exemplified in your post.
If you want to get good at Dota, you have to accept responsibility for
yourself and the decisions you've made to get you to where you're at. At first
in the small setting of the game, but as this gets drilled in over and over
through all the hours of play, the habit grows outside the game.

It's proven a surprisingly good barometer for me on how I'm doing in my life.
When I'm taking care of myself and actually growing elsewhere, even losses are
fun. But when I'm running from something, the wins feel empty. I also notice
that when I meet a 5k+ mmr player in real life, we're immediate friends,
simply because they've accepted responsibility for themselves and have
interesting theories on the world as a result.

------
ganfortran
That is how you got alt-right. Bad job market and on the other hand portrayed
as oppressor and reminded to check your own privilege. Video game is just the
surface of the underlying illness. It is cheap(per hour), and accessible
source of pleasure.

~~~
ajross
You're saying... feminists invented sexism?

~~~
ganfortran
How do u read that? Mind to illustrate me your thought process?

~~~
pessimizer
I think you got caught trying to humanize and understand people with
reprehensible beliefs instead of condemning them, censoring them, and
diagnosing them as sociopaths.

~~~
backpropaganda
A hat trick of Poe's laws application in this thread.

------
researcher11
I dropped out and retired at 31 to a third world country. I'm going to study
whatever I'm interested in while the economy sorts itself out. I may never re-
enter the job maket. I'm ok with that. I'm not rich but it's really cheap
here. I don't want to be forced into a rental market or stock market. The jobs
don't pay enough and the margins are too thin. The risk is too high and all of
my statistical modeling is telling me that the debt fueled market ends in
tears. Good luck with that. Count me out. Don't blame me if you can't find
someone to help you build software.

~~~
bronz
whats the best country to retire in the way you have?

~~~
researcher11
I'm in rual Panama. It's probably the best for tax and lifestyle reasons.

~~~
acover
How do you deal with citizenship/visas?

~~~
researcher11
With lawyers. It cost me $8K and took 6 months. $3K of that was for a company
and bank account.

------
RangerScience
When you look at UBI, you can consider it as the government supplying a
"default job" to everyone, in the same sort of way it provides a few other
"defaults" \- mail (USPS) being a good example.

This provides a "minimum competition" against which any company must compete -
FedEx is always going to have to be better than the USPS.

So notionally - if UBI provides a "default job", companies will have to offer
better jobs than that, in order to attract any employees at all.

Except this article is pointing out that for a chunk of the population, that
effect is already here, supplied by video games. The job (compensation
considered) must be less shitty than playing video games all day.

~~~
recondite
Interesting take, but isn't this also the motivation for companies to automate
as much of their workforce as possible? Nobody really wants to take orders at
McDonald's for $9/hour and Ronald McOwner doesn't want to pay his workers $15+
when the minimum wage gets raised so he installs automated kiosks to take
customer orders. Theoretically, those workers who lost their jobs to the
machines are "freed" to pursue more productive ventures, but what we've
actually been seeing is the 1% capturing that capital even more (as the poster
above noted).

I think we're getting to a point where society is going to have to accept that
vast swaths of the population are simply not necessary or otherwise
employable, in the modern labor force, and hopefully, treating "labor" as an
expendable market resource becomes an archaic concept, similar to how we view
human slavery.

The problem is, the 1% will not change on their own, that has never been the
case. The incentives are just not there for them to want to.

------
wallace_f
As a teenager and early-20-something I was video-game obsessed, dropping out
of sports and university, and wondering why anyone would want to devote their
life to anything as pedestrian as a realistic career.

At 30 I've realized how harsh and cruel the world and its people (not
everyone, but many) can be, which is the primary motivation for making some
big changes in my life away from video games.

~~~
Endy
As a counterpoint:

When I was 20, I had a great job and was happy with my lot in life, certain
that everything was going to be okay. I was going to continue working in the
public library, get the Assistant job, spin that into my MLS, and take up a
Reference Librarian position.

I just turned 30 last week. The bottom dropped out of my world when the budget
focus shifted to a strongly anti-education agenda when I was 23. For 7 years I
have floated between jobs, trying to find something that gave me even a
significant fraction of the satisfaction I had at 20. The world is harsh,
cruel, and unbeatable. Some days the tabletop, online, and video gaming that I
do nightly is the only thing keeping me from jumping in front of a train.

~~~
isuckatcoding
> only thing keeping me from jumping in front of a train.

Hey man don't say that. Despite what you may think, you are valued and
important. If you're feeling suicidal, Please call this hotline
1-800-273-8255.

~~~
Endy
I genuinely appreciate your concern. I still have my lifeline in gaming - both
tabletop (which is social) and computer (which is antisocial). For now, I'll
leave the hotline to those who have less than me and are closer to the edge.

ETA: One of these days I need to find out what it takes to get a paying job
with them; it seems like a service we're going to need for a very long time.
And since I spend a lot of time sitting around with a computer and a phone
next to me, I figure I should go see about getting paid to help people.

~~~
Taylor_OD
You dont have to be on the edge to call the hotline. Next time game night gets
canceled give them a call for 20 minutes.

------
65827
I really like this read, something just smells off about blaming young people
for "wasting years" on video games. We've got a horribly stacked real life
"game" where the boomers and elites have horded everything and fucked future
generations, blaming an individual for dropping out and not wanting to really
participate in that trainwreck is being dishonest at best.

~~~
deelowe
This really hits home for me. Seems like every older family member I have just
has tons and tons of useless stuff. I dont get it.

~~~
ehnto
They also have the useful stuff, like property that was reasonably priced at
the time of purchase.

~~~
deelowe
I have more real estate than all of them combined actually, but that's not
really what I meant. The stuff they have purchased and still own is baffling.
It's all cheap, throw away, walmart crap. Compare this to the things I've
saved from my grandparents and great grandparents which are mostly heirloom
quality and the difference is striking.

The wastefulness is simply depressing.

~~~
mos_basik
careful, there. that line of reasoning smells a bit like "why is old music
always so much better than the crap that comes out these days?"

only the high quality old music is still played and remembered today, and only
the high quality old things survive long enough to be saved by great
grandchildren. i imagine cheap throw away _old_ crap has disintegrated long
ago.

~~~
Aeolun
But it's certainly true that mum has not even one item of 'heirloom quality'
or higher.

------
acjohnson55
What is the labor market, if not an interminable, poorly designed MMORPG?

Most of us will be alive by the time there's enough economic incentive for all
the things humanity needs, with only a token labor force. Many of the world's
richest countries are already there, at least when it comes to their own
citizens.

In the future (i.e. the present, in the software world), to the extent that
employers need workers, they going to have to compete for them with high
salaries and copious perks. We'll largely conquer poverty, and we'll have a
very large lower-middle class working part-time, a smallish upper-middle class
of knowledge workers, and tiny class of ultrawealthy capitalists.

~~~
alphonsegaston
I imagine it's going to be more like a handful of kleptocrat authoritarians, a
small class of knowledge workers, and the rest are the shock troops of the
above or the people who's heads their cracking for even thinking about
rebelling.

~~~
scarmig
Inner Party, Outer Party, and the proles...

------
anjc
Eh. Young men are "dropping out of the job market" due to a lack of ability to
be accepted into it regardless of education or ability. And they're spending
time doing lots more things than gaming, which you can see from rates of drug
addiction and depression and suicide and so on.

Saying that they're dropping out of the job market to spend time gaming is
bizarre and wrong. At various points in the article it hits vaguely onto the
actual truth of the matter.

~~~
Asooka
Yeah but "young men find out the job market is shit and turn to various other
vendors of dopamine" just doesn't have the same ring. It's those gosh darned
rock and roll video games ya know.

------
guskel
I haven't played video games in years but I think that's it not video games
causing young men to drop out of the work force. Rather, there are other
societal causes and young men without prospects for their future are going to
fill their unused time with something.

------
danso
I played plenty of computer and video games when I was young. I don't have as
much time now but every once in awhile I'll go on a Rocket League or Overwatch
binge and I wonder if modern games really do enrapture us more than 8-bit
games ever could. It's not that older games weren't as well-designed as far as
games go, but there's only so many times you can beat Super Mario Bros.
3/Super Metroid in a week, or in a lifetime. Whereas competitive multiplayer
games with no defined ending has the tendency to make you lose track of time.

~~~
09bjb
Games are absolutely more immersive, engrossing, and addictive than they used
to be...and designed to be so. It's a higher-grade drug, if you will.

------
microcolonel
Once again, blaming the drug for the addiction.

Maybe if life were, frankly, worth living; more people might choose to.

I'm a young man who just wants to live a decent life, marry a nice girl, and
have a family some time in the next decade and a half. I have a promising
career, I never really had to try to make money.

I can tell you that if life weren't so easy for me, I would probably just
spend every day masturbating, eating ramen, and playing video games.

I thank my lucky stars that I was born middle class with a well-above-average
IQ, met so many wonderful people who have stuck by me, and that I have the
chance to live in a great city.

The world hates weak men. Video games are a great way to enjoy an otherwise
empty life in a world full of people who think you're a waste of everything
you cost. Nobody should blame them for doing what makes sense with what they
have.

------
dvt
Usually love the Economist -- and I read it regularly -- but I think this
article is bullshit. It's the same kind of nonsense people were writing in the
mid and late-90s: that violent games cause violent tendencies. Luckily, those
claims ended up being completely debunked by dozens of studies.

Now, we have a "gaming epidemic" that has gripped the unemployed,
underemployed, and depressed? Give me a break. Gaming is simply the cheapest
form of entertainment and escapism today. In the 70s, it was movies. In the
60s? I don't know, drugs?

My point is that gaming is used here as a red herring (heck the article even
admits to this: "gaming isn't the problem" in one of the last paragraphs).
Really, this has nothing to do with gaming, and everything to do with the
growing pains of every generation. The article also tries to awkwardly
criticize common-sense truisms, e.g.: "Many gamers (Guillaume among them)
report that they are happy with the decision to work less and game more."

Uh.. duh? Even I would be happy working less and gaming more, and I have a
pretty awesome job. Is it really some kind of poignant discovery that people
would rather have fun than work? Here's another example: "For Emily, and for
many others, games were not the luxury luring her away from career. They were
a comfort blanket and distraction, providing some solace when the working
world offered only bitter disappointment."

And.. why is this bad exactly? Why is it bad to take some time off and
decompress if you have a horrible job you hate? What's the alternative? Work
yourself to the bone, fall in love with someone you hate, have some kids that
hate you, get a divorce, and die alone? What is Mr. Avent's _point_ here?
Because I don't see one.

Disclaimer: I played Counter-Strike competitively and professionally from
around 17-22 (I'd say on average 5-6 hours a day). I still play every now and
then, but don't compete at tournaments or in leagues. I'm 30 now. Not only was
my experience irreplaceable and positive (I made many life-long friends and
met many cool people), but it also helped me with many other aspects of
"grown-up" life:

\- I learned to be goal-oriented and focused

\- I learned how to lead and work with a team to succeed at a common goal

\- I learned how to weed out shitty people that poison the environment

\- I learned what it truly takes and how hard it is to be the top 1% at
anything (even at a stupid video game)

\- I learned how to negotiate contracts and balance budgets

~~~
gdulli
> "For Emily, and for many others, games were not the luxury luring her away
> from career. They were a comfort blanket and distraction, providing some
> solace when the working world offered only bitter disappointment."

> And.. why is this bad exactly?

According to the article Emily left her first job voluntarily. Why is that not
ideal?

\- Felt bad about herself while unemployed/underemployed

\- Opportunity cost of not building job skills/experience (for 2+ years)

\- Opportunity cost of not building normal adult skills and attitudes, like
understanding that work isn't always fun, and adult life is about accepting a
balance between fun and responsibility

\- The more tangible opportunity costs of not building savings, a salary
history, or contributing to retirement savings, which due to compounding
interest is significantly more effective the earlier it begins

\- The Fallout games really aren't open-ended enough to provide enough
entertainment to take the place of a career

> What's the alternative? Work yourself to the bone, fall in love with someone
> you hate, have some kids that hate you, get a divorce, and die alone?

No idea how any of this follows from staying employed until a better job is
available.

~~~
dvt
> No idea how any of this follows from staying employed until a better job is
> available.

If you're arguing that one should stick with a job they hate until something
better comes along, I vehemently disagree. That's like saying "I understand
your husband beats you, but don't leave him until you find someone else."

Maybe you haven't had any, but some jobs are soul-suckingly terrible and
toxic. You only get one life, at least try to enjoy it.

------
iopq
I'm in a similar spot right now. There is nothing as satisfying to me as
playing StarCraft and honing my skills. When I worked as a software developer
I didn't feel like I was improving my skills past a few months at each
company. It was more like doing the same boring work over and over again.

Even when I do the same builds in StarCraft over and over again there's always
an element of the other player trying to mess you up. It adds an
unpredictability element. You can ALWAYS do better by playing faster and more
accurately. There is always more skills to work on.

Work pales in comparison. It's just not exciting.

------
daodedickinson
I got great grades. Didn't matter, no one with enough capital to employ human
beings wanted me to do anything for them. So I have to come up with fake
things to do. If you don't like it, maximize employment and start hiring
people not for profitability but with an aim towards developing people into
what you consider maturity to be. Our powerful people like the Uber CEO don't
seem to be concerned with whether they are designing a society in which people
can have thriving marriages and support children. The Uber CEO apparently
believes that he himself is not mature.

------
zobzu
you mean, the cruel world tell them to be ashamed of their gender, their
country, their life - then they have to pay for their students debts and think
about how they wont ever afford a house and they prefer going to an alternate
reality? no way!

I personally love escaping reality by playing games. There's other ways, but
it's a pretty fine one. Better than depression.

------
diogenescynic
Good paying jobs are scarce and video games are relatively cheap for the
amount of time you can spend on them. It's escapism. They are confusing
correlation with causation.

~~~
marknutter
This is such _bullshit_. Right now you can walk into a long haul trucking job
with _zero_ years experience and be making $70k minimum with a $10-20k signing
bonus after a short month long training. And that's one of myriad trades that
are available _today_. The lie that has been sold to America's youth that
everyone has a "right" to go to college and is entitled to a job upon
graduation will go down as one of the greatest crimes committed against an
entire generation.

~~~
diogenescynic
What are the hours and benefits like for long haul trucking? I'd imagine it's
not a job widely available in West Virginia or areas where there is mass
unemployment. Genuinely asking and I don't think what I said is bullshit.
There are definitely people who can't find full-time jobs and spend their time
playing video games because it's a cheap hobby/luxury/entertainment. Why else
do you think the labor participation rate is so low? Why don't all those
people who lost manufacturing or coal jobs just follow your advice? I don't
think you should dismiss millions and millions of people making minimum wage,
working part-time, or out of the labor force altogether and just assume
(without a shred of evidence) that they are simply choosing not to take well
paid jobs that you describe as so freely available.

~~~
marknutter
> What are the hours and benefits like for long haul trucking? I'd imagine
> it's not a job widely available in West Virginia or areas where there is
> mass unemployment.

The benefits are like any other salaried position, and the hours are
restricted by federal mandate for safety reasons. The one downside is being
away from home for extended periods of time, but... y'know... it's a job; if
it were easy it wouldn't pay well.

The labor shortage in the trades is well documented:

[http://www.career.org/news/shortage-of-skills-
construction-s...](http://www.career.org/news/shortage-of-skills-construction-
skilled-trades)
[http://www.centerforamerica.org/pledge/gr/AAMGA_Magazine_Rat...](http://www.centerforamerica.org/pledge/gr/AAMGA_Magazine_Ratzenberger_CFA_Article_8-11.pdf)

> Why else do you think the labor participation rate is so low? Why don't all
> those people who lost manufacturing or coal jobs just follow your advice?

They _should_ follow my advice. My guess as to why the participation rate is
so low is because Millennials are living at home with their Baby Boomer
parents, playing video games and avoiding the harsh realities of adult life.
They were sold on the false dream that they could get any degree they wanted
and walk right out of college into a high paying, indoor job. Dreams like that
are hard to wake up from.

> I don't think you should dismiss millions and millions of people making
> minimum wage, working part-time, or out of the labor force altogether and
> just assume (without a shred of evidence) that they are simply choosing not
> to take well paid jobs that you describe as so freely available.

When we no longer have a labor shortage in the trades and other blue collar
jobs, I'll stop dismissing the millions of people making minimum wage.

~~~
diogenescynic
>Millennials are living at home with their Baby Boomer parents, playing video
games and avoiding the harsh realities of adult life

This is a terrible strawman and it really discredits the rest of the argument
you're making. I'm a millennial and I don't know anyone like you're
describing.

>labor shortage in the trades

Every time you hear "labor shortage" you need to add "at the offered
salary/wage"\--they need to offer more money.

Why do you think people would rather work a minimum wage job than take your
advice? You offer literally no explanation and just make claims without any
evidence. You are speaking from opinion, not fact.

~~~
marknutter
> This is a terrible strawman and it really discredits the rest of the
> argument you're making.

Uh.. did you even read the article we're commenting on? I'm speaking directly
to its main thesis. If you're making a claim about it being a straw man, take
it up with the author.

> I'm a millennial and I don't know anyone like you're describing.

And I'm a millennial too and I know plenty of people like the one I'm
describing.

> Every time you hear "labor shortage" you need to add "at the offered
> salary/wage"\--they need to offer more money.

It's not that simple. Many of the industries experiencing labor shortages are
labor intensive and there are limits to the amount they can increase wages and
remain economically viable.

> Why do you think people would rather work a minimum wage job than take your
> advice? You offer literally no explanation and just make claims without any
> evidence. You are speaking from opinion, not fact.

Frankly, Millennials aren't as money-motivated as previous generations were.
They choose to accept the stigma of staying at home with their parents or
working low wage service jobs over the life of a blue-collar worker. I don't
even really fault them for it; money ain't everything. But they have to lie in
the bed they make for themselves. They can't both live a bohemian lifestyle
free from responsibility and have all the trappings of life that hard work
provides.

------
koonsolo
US seems to be centered around spending your whole life working. 10 days of
vacation, are you serious? That is only 2 weeks per year. I can't imagine only
2 weeks of holiday with my 3 kids.

Maybe you should look more towards Europe for some solutions. More vacation
days, flexible work system (4/5th, part-time, etc.), incentives to stay a
couple of months at home.

Maybe those gamers would be perfectly happy having a part-time jobs and
spending the rest of the time gaming.

As an example: one of our people managers here (in Belgium) is working 4/5th,
and she's doing a great job.

------
touchofevil
I played A LOT of competitive Magic: The Gathering from about age 14-21. We
used to call it "cardboard crack" so we all understood that the game was
addictive. I had a lot of fun and met some great people, but even back then I
knew that I had a problem with the game and that I was addicted to it. This
was before people talked about gaming addiction and I don't think American
society understood that it could actually be a serious issue. I knew people
who got addicted to EverQuest (aka EverCrack) and watched them go MIA for six
months at a time from the Magic scene and drop out of high school to play
EverQuest for 12 hours a day. This was back in 1999, so gaming addiction
definitely isn't new.

I found that gaming addiction becomes self-reinforcing once you start putting
a significant number of hours into gaming. Once you spend enough time gaming
you'll end up not having enough hours to fulfill your real world commitments,
like studying. Not fulfilling your real world commitments will cause you
stress (failing a test) and you'll seek relief by going back to gaming. This
can become a vicious cycle quickly as the more you game to relieve your
stress, the more stress you end up creating for yourself by having even less
time to fulfill your real world obligations.

The kids I knew who had the most unstable families were the ones who paid the
highest price for their gaming addiction and ended up not graduating from high
school. So I'm not surprised that unemployed young men who have unstable
professional lives are getting hit hard by gaming addiction now. I hope they
can break the cycle. I burned off a lot of hours playing Magic and I do
sometimes wonder what could have come of that time if it had been spent
elsewhere.

~~~
taway_1212
I dunno, I also played a lot of competitive M:tG, between 17 and 22, but I
found it very fulfilling. I made some of my life-long friends through it, I
went to places all over Europe (for tournaments) and overall had a ton of fun.
That was mostly before the advent of Magic Online, I understand that now Magic
can be largely played like other online video games (plus the skill level is
way higher, because the most obsessed people can just practice 100 hours per
week), whereas in the past it explicitly required you to socialize to have
playtesting partners, borrow cards, split rides to tournaments etc.

~~~
touchofevil
The social aspect of the game was definitely the best part for me as well. I
met great people who were outside of my usual social circle through the game
and that was fantastic. I never touched Magic Online, thankfully.

I was always trying to come up with some new combo or some deck that had never
been tried before and because of that I had a tendency to think about the game
a lot. I liked the mad science aspect of deck building, but that took up a lot
of time. I don't play anymore, but I'm always right on the brink of getting
back into the game and I follow the current competitive decks. Just the other
day I spent several hours designing decks after I realized that you could
exploit Key to the City by tapping it with Pacification Array in standard.
After spending about 5 hours going down rabbit holes coming up with decklists,
I realized I had just wasted most of the day and that I would have to commit
further time to actually playing one of those decks at a FNM tournament. I was
hit with a familiar feeling of regret for wasting time. That feeling often
gnawed at me after having played Magic when I was younger. I guess you could
say I have a love/hate relationship with Magic.

------
projektir
If people do not find this world worthwhile they will make one up.

------
peterwwillis
My friends were getting addicted to "Evercrack" 15 years ago, playing for days
on end, affecting school, work, and social life. Other games had similar
effects (usually mmorpgs). Nothing new here

~~~
sspyder
It is when it spreads from the AV club to the mainstream and the numbers start
having tangible impact on jobs numbers / workforce participation rates.

~~~
kakarot
Good! Those metrics are important to some, but not to others.

~~~
laughfactory
I'd argue those metrics are important to all of us because they are they
suggest that all is not well in our society. It's hard to imagine how
declining male participation rates are anything but a bad thing for society.
These metrics indicate our society is in for some rough times ahead. When you
get millions of people opting out of the economy (to paint it broadly) that is
a very bad thing, and that is what these metrics indicate is already
happening. Worse, this is just the beginning.

------
chrisan
How long do you think before we are in a Ready Player One world where we spend
both our free and job time in an alternate reality?

~~~
mintplant
I sort of did this with Second Life when I was in my teens, logging on daily
to have fun and hang out and also to script/build/sell things for real money,
answer support requests in-world and so on. I don't go on nearly as much as I
used to, but I still draw some passive income from my store there.

~~~
xiaoma
I was always curious about 2nd life but never tried it and I'm not sure why.
What year was your store's peak revenue? Where do you think most 2nd lifers
went? Is there a viable successor these days, maybe in its early stages?

~~~
T-A
Don't know about parent's store, but SL's peak year was 2009:
[http://taterunino.net/statcharts/mo_cmedian400full.jpg](http://taterunino.net/statcharts/mo_cmedian400full.jpg)

My guess is most "2nd lifers" still among the living (people with disabilities
and medical conditions seem to be overrepresented among users; death
announcements are not uncommon) are still around, they just log on less
frequently and spend more time in other online worlds.

The obvious successors in the works are Linden Lab's own Sansar,

[https://www.sansar.com/](https://www.sansar.com/)

and SL cofounder Rosedale's High Fidelity:

[https://highfidelity.com/](https://highfidelity.com/)

~~~
xiaoma
Thanks!

------
pvaldes
"Emily lives in a small town not far from Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. In 2013
she graduated from university and took a job at a marketing firm – a miserable
one which she left after a few months... After months of unhappy unemployment,
Emily found work: as a cashier in a local shop"

Spanish government's research job offer last month. Some of the requirements:
having 16-30 years old _and_ a Phd degree.

Maybe is the market who lives in an alternate reality when it is expected that
you start university at 8-10 years old to have a job, but you are too old at
23.

~~~
AstralStorm
It is ageism, a form of discrimination. Has to be fought against.

------
ajeet_dhaliwal
I don't think this is an increasing phenomena due to games getting 'better' as
much as due to the economic climate. Even children do it, I did. It can be a
good thing and a bad thing. The reason I am a hacker and earn a living as a
'professional software engineer' today, have worked in the games industry and
now also at a startup is all because of the interest in games and software
generated during my childhood playing video games in order to get escapism
from the bullies. Games seemed a thing of beauty the way there were balanced.
Even if the protagonist is getting attacked by one hundred enemies the
programmer will provide some ability to fight back.

Games are pleasurable because the 'hard work' you put in pays off. Life is not
always like that, it's only sometimes like that, and for some people it
doesn't seem to matter how hard they work, there's a lot of hopeless places to
live in the world. People don't want to live in the USA and other places
because they want easy access to Disney Land, they just want to play a fairer
game. Now the fact that this is happening in the US, indicates that the
economic situation is not as good as it once was for some people. If it
improves people would come out of the games because there would be opportunity
outside in the real world and anyone would pick the real world rather than
games in that case because games are created by people and are rather limited
and dull imitations of our real world, our real world is infinitely more
interesting and complex.

~~~
intended
I disagree - and I also think the counter point needs to be more dispersed.

A majority of the games created today are straight up skinner boxes which
engender and support addictive/gambling behaviors. Especially since today,
most games are in your mobile phone and not your PC/Console.

These programs use random reward schedules, linear reward schedules,
everything. They use it with constantly fine tuned schedules, and with
constant feedback.

These are machines, which send dopamine shots to the brain at precision tool
levels.

There is no real world analogue that can beat

1) Random chance of huge drop (dopamine hit)

2) Clear performance metrics showing steps to next dopamine hit

3) Timers showing when next free dopamine hit is coming

4) Social tie ins to increase reach and invoke community/social mental systems
as well as social proof/buy in

5) Streamlined, A/B tested interfaces and messaging.

6) Leader boards for the competitive

7) Mobile and thus constantly available

I used to dream of making games which were like that, because I thought I was
being a sneaky bastard. Then I saw these creatures appear on the market.

Many people out there with less sense and more money are happy to blame the
gamer and call it "just a game".

Lets be clear: This kind of design should be banned/disallowed.

And if anyone gets upset by using "banned" on HN, let me remind everyone that
around the world Subliminal Advertizing is disallowed, if not directly
illegal.

Shiny skinner boxes in everyones hand are planes of existence worse than
Subliminal ads.

I am a gamer, and have been since the day I saw an atari, and fumbled with a
sinclair spectrum.

This shit is beyond unethical.

------
psyc
To be honest, quite a few video games are much more well designed than the
money|status game.

~~~
projektir
Well, yeah, video games, for the most part, are actually designed with the
player's desires in mind...

------
Bahamut
I had a bout with game addiction for almost my first two years of college. At
some point, I decided to fight it, and devote myself not just to breaking that
addiction, but being dedicated to retaining the ability to break any addiction
I wanted to.

I managed to survive college with dual BS degrees in mathematics and physics,
and attend a prestigious graduate program in mathematics, although I had to
pay my way via loans for two years because of the damage I did to my grades my
first two years of college. I was secretly dejected after leaving graduate
school after 4 years, but was fortunate to land in software engineering. I
don't play too many games anymore just due to being busy, but I still am tied
into the game industry due to my tight network of friends, many whom became
successful in the game music industry, or games or music.

------
intrasight
It is all about balance. I know several young adults who are smart, educated,
and successful (for their age) and yet spend what for me is way too much time
playing video games. But to them it is not just a game - it's another serious
pursuit. And they make several to ten thousand dollars a year gaming.

~~~
chii
is that streaming or YouTube? I can't see how one can make money unless they
are a pro gamer

------
0xCMP
I have found that the "Game of Life" as the author puts it is much more
rewarding and meaningful. But then again, I guess I get to do what I like and
I'm paid well for it.

I'm worried what our culture and life will be like with a large number of
people who do nothing but play video games. Especially if a UBI is created and
they can continue to play video games without any big effect on their basic
income.

That said, maybe I'm just being cynical. Maybe all that time playing
increasingly high-quality games, reading books (some in the article were), and
talking about it all with people online will grow into that group of people
having a different and better perspective on things. A group of gaming
philosophers.

------
saryant
I'm a 26 year old male and never got any deeper into video games than some
intense rounds of Mario Kart in college. I've played others but generally lose
interest and move on quickly. Doubt I've played a video game in a few years at
this point. What follows is likely senseless babbling and bullshit armchair
pop psychology.

The prevalence of video games among young men frightens me, in two ways:

First, in the development of narcissism in teens. In so many video games, you
play the hero—the one man left who can save the world! The fate of everything
rests on you and you alone for those hours while you're plugged in. Pumping
music, suspense, surprise and eventually reward. How can this not fuel the
development of narcissism amongst growing boys? You play as the only person
who can succeed and you're rewarded for that success, but without real-world
troubles like concern for others' feelings. No, I'm not a psychiatrist, but
can't we imagine that at least some boys become addicted to that sensation?

My hypothesis is that video games in boys and teens can fuel narcissistic
disorders. Not in all, but in some.

That leads us to the second reason I'm frightened of the prevalence of video
games.

I recognize that as a man in a burgeoning industry (software) and a dynamic
city (Boulder/Denver), I'm not subject to the same economic pressures as the
average American male my age.

My concern is that (by my first theory) we have a growing group of young men
with narcissism problems. They are also coming of age in an economy which
increasingly doesn't need them. Their job—and therefore romantic—prospects are
poor.

A large group of narcissistic men unable to find recognition at work or in
love, yearning for the reward stimulation they once got from their Xbox. Most
will muddle along, merely dissatisfied.

Narcissists, of course, do not blame themselves for their problems. Those are
the fault of _others_.

So is it that much of a leap to imagine how this fuels movements like the alt-
right? Certainly, unemployed men have been a source of strife throughout
history. When I read the rhetoric of the alt-right, either their leaders or
those who subscribe to the philosophy, it's impossible not to hear the
language of revenge and envy.

Revenge against not just successful individuals—those with careers, love,
success, recognition, fueled by petty envy—but also revenge against the entire
system that now conspires, supposedly, against these men, preventing them from
achieving their proper position and the recognition they deserve.

They see a society celebrating women, minorities, the educated, the talented
and crave the same. Society does not celebrate them. So that society,
therefore, must be abolished.

Men are growing up with a desire for recognition, they are failing to find
that recognition and that leads them to lash out.

\----

Thus endeth my theory.

It's probably a load of crap. But I'm also sure it describes some posters here
on HN. I know it describes some friends of mine.

~~~
projektir
> They are also coming of age in an economy which increasingly doesn't need
> them. Their job—and therefore romantic—prospects are poor.

> Narcissists, of course, do not blame themselves for their problems. Those
> are the fault of others.

I find this juxtaposition rather funny.

What I find really odd is that you seem much more concerned about the results
of this rather than what caused this trend in the first place.

~~~
saryant
Fair critique.

I was thinking of an acquaintance who fits the mould I described. He lives in
a shithole town where the are no jobs and no prospects. He complains endlessly
about how he'll never find a career. Why doesn't he take responsibility and
_move_ somewhere with an actual economy? I know he's not stupid. So why
doesn't he try?

And yes, I am more concerned about the results. Knowing how we got here is
necessary but isn't going to change the future.

~~~
projektir
> And yes, I am more concerned about the results. Knowing how we got here is
> necessary but isn't going to change the future.

I see this pattern a lot. People _always_ seem to be concerned about the
results. It's drastically inefficient. How is this different from saying you
can't fix bugs right now because you need to work on features? Then you'll
never fix any bugs. And if you focus on results, you'll never even notice a
cause. And you'll always be fixing the big difficult problem and wondering why
you never have any time and why everything is always bad.

The result is a natural extension of the cause. If you don't like the result,
address the cause. If you fail to address the cause, you deserve the result
(not you literally but the relevant collective). So late in the process is too
late to complain. Instead, go find the next cause, before all you're left with
is results.

> I was thinking of an acquaintance who fits the mould I described. He lives
> in a shithole town where the are no jobs and no prospects. He complains
> endlessly about how he'll never find a career. Why doesn't he take
> responsibility and move somewhere with an actual economy? I know he's not
> stupid. So why doesn't he try?

There's not enough information in this paragraph, yet I find it trivial to
think of possible explanations but here you're asking "why?", as if that's an
interesting question (maybe he developed learned helplessness?). I will say
that if you focus on blaming the individual, their motivations will close up
to you completely and you will have significant trouble understanding them.
"This person is just inferior" is an infinite black hole that can eat any and
all cause while providing you with zero solutions. I've seen many times when
there were obvious explanations, but a person was so engrossed in blame they
just couldn't see them.

When you focus on results and turn to blame, you effectively blind yourself to
how the world operates, because there's nothing keeping in check how far you
can assign blame. And after a while, the sheer amount of blame becomes cause
itself.

I bring up blame because your original post was full of blame of people, yet
little blame for the cause itself.

------
pbkhrv
On a cynical note, "young men immersed in alternate reality" is also an
opportunity:

\- It's a rapidly growing market

\- those people will eventually need financial support systems beyond family -
new forms of annuities?

\- more demand for "gig economy" type jobs

\- demand for jobs that can be done inside virtual realities that are better
suited for humans instead of robots - this one is a stretch

\- more demand for on-demand "life support" services - food, cleaning,
medical, sex

This is veering into dark-ish dystopian territory, so imma stop now.

~~~
astrodust
This is what happened in Japan in the mid 1990s when it firmly entered the
post-industrial age. There's an entire sector of society that's given up on
getting ahead because the old model of employment is broken, and there's no
point in fighting to get ahead since there's no winning.

Console games and ramen noodles until you die.

~~~
flukus
It seems like there's a limit to growth and Japan were just the first ones to
hit the limit. Everyone else has just cheated the limit with "artificial
growth" via immigration.

~~~
astrodust
You might be right about that. Japan has been pretty hostile to immigration,
so it's probable that's a significant factor here.

------
callmeed
Someone should figure out a way to embed mechanical turk tasks into video
games. Then young men can at least get paid a little bit for their game play.

~~~
mos_basik
The MMO Eve Online partnered with the Human Protein Atlas to embed a protein-
mapping minigame in Eve. It was fitted into the game's overarching storyline
and gives in-game rewards for participating. A month or two after it was
introduced they released some numbers; something like 37 man-years of
classification labor had been performed. And because it's in a game with an
existing playerbase and provides reward as long as it is played, it is still
continuing to yield results (naturally it slowed down after the first peak of
interest) in contrast to the tendency (they claim) of most standalone
crowdsourced data science projects to struggle to gain traction and dry up
fast.

[http://www.pcworld.com/article/3060692/software-games/how-
ev...](http://www.pcworld.com/article/3060692/software-games/how-eve-online-
players-are-solving-real-world-science-problems-meet-project-discovery.html)

~~~
callmeed
Fascinating, thanks for this. I had a suspicion I wasn't the first person to
come up with this idea.

I wonder how well such a program could expand to other forms of crowdsourced
data.

------
chiefalchemist
Welcome to The Matrix.

------
itchyjunk
<long winded rant> Games, to a degree is escapism of course. When I dropped
out of college and sat at the back of a public library, I saw all types of
values as I spent so many hours in so many different games. Learnt about
communicating only the important details in first person shooters (FPS) and
learnt about sacrificing my character to save my carry in MOBA [2] games like
leauge of legends and dota 2. Though no one outside gaming communities
generally care about such things. I get called lazy and get told that I am
wasting my life away fairly often.

A game like dota 2 has roughly 500k player playing at any given time. about 3x
more for leauge. Thats 500k * 24 hours a day spent collectively as humans on a
game on any given day. So billions of hours a week is not a bad estimation.
There is a tedtalk video that talks about the hours as well.[1] I often this
about this in the back of my mind when people talk about universal basic
income (UBI) and unemployment. I think the future generation will find it
natural to put in large hours into games and it won't be seen as negative.

Games are also asylum for some though, i've met some really awesome people but
people who were clearly in very bad places mentally. Some have spent years in
game collecting and achieving stuff that will have no meaning to anyone
outside of the game but means the world to them. (Sadly one killed himself
after his account got hacked and all this stuff was gone). Therefore, I wish
people approaching from the outside of specific communities trying to talk to
these people and talk about issues would sometimes take a little time to look
at the culture before going off on stuff like "bikini armor" [3] (female
character with `impractical` armor) or video game violence or toxicity[4] in
gaming community. Yes these all might be problems and we'd all like to address
it, but trying to confront a population who's already withdrawn from reality
to varying degree is not the best approach from my point of view.

</ long winded rant>

[1]
[https://www.ted.com/talks/jane_mcgonigal_gaming_can_make_a_b...](https://www.ted.com/talks/jane_mcgonigal_gaming_can_make_a_better_world)

[2]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiplayer_online_battle_aren...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiplayer_online_battle_arena)

[3] [https://encrypted-
tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSrC_DI...](https://encrypted-
tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSrC_DIHRIqO5bjPogGrZraS4fOEDvDd8okN78nSA9szeauLme5dw)
[4]
[https://www.reddit.com/r/gaming/comments/2v9zqf/top_10_most_...](https://www.reddit.com/r/gaming/comments/2v9zqf/top_10_most_toxic_game_communities/)

------
ninjateam
to occupy their time, to find purpose in life or to contribute to society?

------
alphonsegaston
Every job I've worked in my adult life has involved being judged by standards
the boomers doing the judging could never live up to, and then covering for
their incompetence with technical skills(because I'm young, so I can just do
that stuff). It would be such a sad joke if it weren't for the fact that they
squat in every opportunity young people have for their futures (real estate,
higher positions, etc) while the young themselves drown in debt and
exploitation.

~~~
edblarney
Utter and complete rubbish.

The 'boomers' invented most of the 'computer stuff' you use, most 'developers'
today are hacks (granted, some are amazing).

Boomers had difficult upbringing, brought real social change, lived through -
and ended the Cold War.

Female boomers were expected to be secretaries - and had to fight for the
right just to do normal jobs in the workplace.

Even the boys - were expected to do the same jobs their fathers did, mostly
boring labour - and only a fraction of them got to go to University.

There was no such thing as 'startups' back in the day - there were zero
opportunities for middle class young people to generate wealth or do globally
impactful things.

They lived during the draft, and 50 000 of them died in Vietnam.

Millenials are born into massive entitlement, wealth , privilege and
opportunity.

You get bored easily, and don't want to do the same job for more than a year -
but expect loyalty and long term employment? Yes - boomers had steadier work -
but it was also incredibly boring, stagnant - and in real wages, pay was crap.

Boomers could own a small, shoddy home in the suburbs, and were able to have
'a fridge' and 'an oven' and 'a car' \- even though they were all crap by
today's standards - that was 'The American Dream' and they were generally
happy.

If you are born past the fall of the Berlin wall in America - unless you are
from a ghetto - you do not know hardship.

As for real estate: the average home price in the US is about $200K. You can
afford a home. You just can't be 'Instagram baller'.

As for 'higher positions' \- do you think the 'Greatest Generation' just
handed over their choice positions to the 'Boomers'? Or do you think it took
mostly a lifetime of work and loyalty? If you don't like your job make
yourself CEO of your own company. What's stopping you?

American Millenials have more opportunity than any group of people in the
entirety of history - enough with your complaining.

~~~
zxcvvcxz
Not sure how this is being downvoted - the truth hurts. We just have it too
damn good, and without any wide-scale struggles to know how good we have it.

I would like to a read a serious response from a detractor.

~~~
thriftwy
There's no room to grow.

In the modern world, for most people, there's nothing productive to do and no
fame to get from it.

In the USA, all the highways are already built (and even when they're failing,
their fixing will be postponed). High speed rail lines weren't, and they're
not going to be. Not on any human time frame.

So most people are engaged with running pre-built technosphere that is slowly
falling apart, with no new developments, for ever-shrinking pay, while more
and more money are extorted from them to pay for previous generations
entitlements, and also for medicine, real estate, tuition and law, which from
services all turned into endless money sinks.

Friges and ovens are not the alpha and omega of life. Productivity, respect
and growth are. Are we having any all across post-development countries?

~~~
edblarney
"There's no room to grow."

"Productivity, respect and growth are. Are we having any all across post-
development countries?"

Have any of you ever taken a basic Econ course?

'No room for growth'?

THE ECONOMY HAS BEEN GROWING EVERY YEAR.

Do you realize that 'feature phones' to 'cell phones' is economic growth?

Do you realize that '2G to 4G' is economic growth?

Do you realize that more people going to college than ever before is good?

There are new medicine trials every day - gene therapy. Jesus H Christ you can
now _chose the gender and eye colour of your offspring_. That's how advanced
we are.

100 years ago - there was no 'medicine'. 95% of all operations were basically
amputations with crossed fingers of no infection.

Do you realize that the amount of air travel in the world has doubled in the
last little while?

That you have access to 100000x more information that people just 20 years
ago, before the internet?

You do realize that the iPhone/Android/Facebook are only 10 years old?

That 20 years ago there _was no YCombinator_?

I'm just going to assume that most of you are too young to have any
perspective, because I just can't understand the commentary here.

When you hit your 30's, you can look back and your own life can be a literal
testament to the change.

Yes, some things stay the same, but at least in terms of material
productivity, things are better.

~~~
thriftwy
> THE ECONOMY HAS BEEN GROWING

If the college provides same service while extorting twice as much money, this
means that economy grows, but people become poorer, more indebted and
strained. The economy might be growing; but WE don't.

> Do you realize that more people going to college than ever before is good?

But when they graduate they have worse employment prospects than High School
graduates 40 years ago.

> Do you realize that '2G to 4G' is economic growth?

But how many participate in it as makers and not just as consumers?

When Interstates happened, a lot of people made them with their hands. But
now, very few people are directly involved in the 2G to 4G transition and are
proud for it. The others just feel like a passengers in a fast moving bus
without any control of the route, or, for that reason, trip safety.

> Jesus H Christ you can now chose the gender and eye colour of your offspring

But can you afford it today as a middle-income person? If you can't, it's not
there yet. What's the engagement numbers?

> You do realize that the iPhone/Android/Facebook are only 10 years old?

...but I liked more what was before them. I would have preferred N900 and
LiveJournal, too bad I don't have this choice realistically. Talk about bus
passengers.

> Do you realize that the amount of air travel in the world has doubled in the
> last little while?

How many people are making it happen? And not on the crappy jobs such as
flight attendants? Wait - now even the pilots have their jobs unsatisfactory
thanks to long hours and bad pay.

> When you hit your 30's

I'm 32.

------
DougN7
I think this is where UBI leads if it ever happens.

~~~
AnthonyMouse
This is the thing UBI prevents.

A large benefit of a UBI compared to the status quo is that it reduces
marginal tax rates on low income people. Right now you can get a lot of
assistance if you have little to no income, but if you make a dollar you lose
90 cents in benefits. Who wants to work for 10 cents on the dollar?

With a UBI you make a dollar and you keep most of it, so there is more
incentive to work.

~~~
yummyfajitas
How does a UBI prevent this? The people described in the article don't seem to
want more money. They want to play video games. Giving them enough money to
live off of would allow them to do exactly that while producing nothing of
benefit to society. Right now, at least, some of them seem marginally
productive (contractors, the cashier, etc).

Utility, as a function of money, generally has a negative second derivative -
think Utility(income)=log(income) rather than Utility(income) = income.
Utility'(0) > Utility'(UBI), so the UBI is still a massive work disincentive
regardless of marginal tax rates.

A better solution is work incentives - EITC, Basic Job (UBI but only if you do
government work), that kind of thing.

~~~
chongli
What happens when technology progresses to the point where they can't be
productive at all? Where it simply costs money to give them a job. Are you
okay with paying people to dig holes and fill them back up again?

~~~
astrange
> What happens when technology progresses to the point where they can't be
> productive at all?

If nobody can ever improve on anything, either everything is free or we're all
dead, and in neither case do you need a job in the first place.

Just having a lot of manufacturing robots does not mean there is nothing to
do!

~~~
chongli
_do you need a job in the first place_

The real reason people need jobs, as evident by the number of able-bodied
people who don't work at all, is for acquiring status. UBI (nor any other
welfare measure) will not solve this problem.

~~~
astrange
Although it would if we lived in a Cory Doctorow novel.

[http://craphound.com/down/download/](http://craphound.com/down/download/)

------
sauronlord
Love it.

Less competition for jobs, real estate, and other resources.

Can't wait to see full blown VR and what it will bring

------
throwaway420
* Disappointing that the false meme about some gaming communities being hostile to women because they're women was promoted in this article. Some gaming communities are very hostile to newcomers: but it's not because you're a woman, it's because you're a noob or just suck. Welcome to one of the last remaining meritocracies.

* The article makes a correct observation insofar as more men (not just an occasional sad social reject) are using games as an escape, often due to poor economic realities. But it's disappointing that the huge role that male/female relations and sex plays in this trend is ignored.

* Google terms like "the sexodus". There are many politically incorrect truths here about what is going on with male/female relations and why more men are seeking an escape and why everybody is unhappy that I think are more at the root of this issue.

~~~
findateamfirst
You're horribly mistaken, likely because you haven't spent time in communities
that aren't hostile to women. It's really hard to know whether your community
is hostile to women unless you're a woman. A lot of guys just don't understand
how much harassment a typical woman experiences, and when they hear it
criticized basically fall back on "well I don't see it" and conclude it must
not be happening rather than trying to collect more information.

~~~
throwaway420
a) Where did I say that women aren't experiencing harassment on some gaming
communities? In fact, I explicitly acknowledged it. Your post is kind of
pointless virtue signaling or something.

b) I just pointed out that it's just generally not about your gender. It
doesn't matter if you're a man or woman: every newcomer gets harassed in
really rough ways using the most biting insults available. A fat guy will get
the obvious insults. An ugly guy will get obvious insults. A young kid who has
a high pitched voice because he hasn't hit puberty yet will get obvious
insults. A gay man will get obvious insults. So will a black guy or an arab.
Or a christian. They'll use any facts they know about you. And guess what,
women are treated equally here as well and will get insulted. Not saying it's
right, but it's what actually happens to everybody. Gamers are treating women
equally, I thought that's what women wanted?

c) The only difference is that when a woman gets harassed, most of civil
society is sympathetic about it by default and she'll get a horde of white
knights expressing sympathy. When a man gets his feelings hurt, he's portrayed
as weak for showing emotion. Maybe this is part of the reason that some men
are seeking an escape from society?

d) It's really hard to know whether your community is hostile to men unless
you're a man. A lot of women just don't understand how much harassment a
typical man experiences, and when they hear it criticized basically fall back
on "well I don't see it" and conclude it must not be happening rather than
trying to collect more information. (2 of us can play this game)

e) While this is a fascinating discussion that I'd love to have, this point
about sex and male/female relationships is 100 times more important than
debating about harassment to women gamers for the hundredth time. Things like
family and relationships are important motivating factors to men, and when
social reforms (some people call that progress, some don't) remove or lower
that factor for ~80% of men, civilization will also decline.

~~~
empath75
Do you know what a sad cliche this nonsense is? You're just repeating the same
tired, red-pill gamergate nonsense.

~~~
dropit_sphere
What is the difference between "cliche" and "same, tired," and "tried-and-
true"? (That is a rhetorical question, but the reader is encouraged to answer
it for themselves as an exercise).

There is a nearly irresistible temptation for people reading comments like the
grandparent to engage in tribal thinking. "I'm against being a dick to women,"
they think, "This guy, who shows signs of being a dick to women, therefore has
nothing of merit to say."

I don't really have a point, except: Beware your epistemology! Your cognitive
biases put Trump in office and you still don't understand why. If you can
master the difficult art of reading things you disagree with, there may yet be
hope for you.

------
imode
slow news day, huh? seems this story is aired about every 2-3 years...

EDIT: I'm being downvoted for pointing out that these kinds of articles have
been rehashed for years? thanks. continue on, then.

~~~
sulam
By "this story" you mean a story like this? Because this one is new.

[https://twitter.com/ryanavent/status/841411624904863746](https://twitter.com/ryanavent/status/841411624904863746)

~~~
imode
A story like this. "videogames are sucking people in" has been replayed when
WoW was popular. and even the article references prior stories.

~~~
laughfactory
That doesn't mean there's nothing to see here. The fact remains that the
official metrics are getting worse, and the changes can be reasonably ascribed
to people choosing to opt out and play video games (among other things). In
another decade we'll be reading articles like this one, but the share of young
males opting out will go from 14% to at least 20%, maybe even 25%, if the
trends hold. How long until 50% of young males are opting out? And consider
that as that number rises those are men who are not buying stuff (better for
the environment, but worse for the economy), getting married, having kids,
starting businesses, etc

