
Millions Are Hounded for Debt They Don’t Owe. One Victim Fought Back - jseliger
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2017-12-06/millions-are-hounded-for-debt-they-don-t-owe-one-victim-fought-back-with-a-vengeance
======
Animats
It's quite possible to do more via lawsuits, especially in California. One guy
got a judgment against Bank of America and showed up at a branch with
sheriff's deputies and a moving van to seize property.[1] He was paid very
quickly.

I once had a business refuse to pay me after a small claims judgment. I paid
the sheriff's office for a "till tap" and an "8 hour keeper".[2] That means a
sheriff's deputy (usually two of them) goes to the business, shows the court
order, and _takes the money out of the cash register_ , arresting anyone who
gets in the way. If there's not enough money on hand, the deputies stand
behind the register and take in money during the business day until the
judgment is paid. The fee for this is about $85, which gets added on to the
judgment. It worked for me.

[1] [http://business.time.com/2011/06/06/homeowner-forecloses-
on-...](http://business.time.com/2011/06/06/homeowner-forecloses-on-bank-of-
america-yes-you-heard-that-right/)

[2]
[http://www.dca.ca.gov/publications/small_claims/collect.shtm...](http://www.dca.ca.gov/publications/small_claims/collect.shtml)

~~~
blahshaw
For a till tap, do deputies compel the business owners to open the till, or is
there some kind of skeleton key that law enforcement use?

~~~
gbacon
Skeleton keys are a plot device in children's cartoons.

~~~
0xb100d
Not for warded locks [1]

They're more common that you'd think.

[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skeleton_key](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skeleton_key)

------
TallGuyShort
I've had multiple encounters with debt collection agencies that all ended up
being for medical bills that were never processed correctly in the first place
that I had never seen before. In every single case so far it's been a
legitimate, state-licensed debt collector, they have not fulfilled the
requirements set by law to prove the debt, and the have just used scare
tactics and bureaucracy to avoid a fair confrontation. I've filed complaints
with the state regulator, at which point token (but inadequate) documentation
has been provided and my complaint "resolved".

I have little sympathy for most cases in which people rack up debt and try to
escape the consequences, but Good Lord, the other side of that equation is
shady as Hell, even when done far more legitimately than this.

~~~
finkin1
You should contact a bankruptcy attorney. I used to work for one and he loved
cases where debt collectors violate collection laws. Getting a settlement was
almost always easy and he split it 50-50 with the client.

~~~
TallGuyShort
Thank you for the suggestion. I just dug up documentation of the most recent
case and left a message with a local bankruptcy attorney :)

~~~
TallGuyShort
Alas - it's been just over a year, and the statute of limitations is up. Next
time.

------
fridek
This is more or less how spam was almost solved in 2006 by Blue Frog [1].
Instead of trying to fight the spam distribution, they fought people who buy
spam by contacting them directly for every email sent to them by users. The
resulting DDoS and shutdown of the service was sad but inevitable. Still makes
me feel nostalgic for the brief moment of hope some human behaviour might get
_better_ as the internet evolves, and makes me wish some corporation which
claims to be socially responsible picked it up, supported and defended it.

[1]
[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_Frog](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_Frog)

------
balabaster
If he managed all this on top of a full time job and maintaining family life,
just for the love of setting a wrong right, imagine what he would have
achieved if _this_ had been his full time job. Someone needs to give this guy
a job and pay him to do this. There aren't enough people in the world that
will stand up and do the right thing instead of just paying it lip service.
For that alone, this guy is a hero to me.

~~~
wlll
I was thinking just this as I read the article. If I had the money I'd just
pay this guy to chase these people down.

~~~
kodablah
Likewise. Needs to be a crowd-funded fight-the-man where the patrons can vote
on the cause and watch progress.

~~~
jxramos
I'd chip into that pot just for the pure entertainment of it all.

~~~
dkersten
Me too. Both for the entertainment and because I dislike debt collectors. In
my experience, they're all lying pieces of shit.

~~~
ficklepickle
I love it. Make it a platform and call it something hip like vicarious.ly

I could totally get into that.

------
nunez
There is an awesome podcast episode of Planet Money on how vicious these debt
collectors can be and why they are “allowed” to be that way. Listen to it
here:
[https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2014/10/08/354591198/epis...](https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2014/10/08/354591198/episode-574-the-
buffalo-talk-off)

~~~
vxNsr
There's another one about how to fight these types of loans in court, I can't
seem to find it now though.

~~~
klenwell
I suspect you're thinking of this This American Life episode:

[https://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-
archives/episode/532/...](https://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-
archives/episode/532/transcript)

~~~
Redoubts
The money shot:

 _Show me the evidence_. In other words, show me where you got this number
$3,762.20. The Georgia Legal Services lawyer told Jake that if you're standing
before a judge, and you say, OK, I don't recognize this amount that you say I
owe and I want to see some documentation, I want to see account statements or
whatever, because I have no way to know with certainty that this debt is
really mine, the judge will usually turn to the other side and ask for the
evidence. And, in all likelihood, they'll have no documentation and they'll
drop the case.

~~~
FireBeyond
And as in the radio episode on NPR and this article, a lot of times, that
"proof" is nothing more than a list of names, addresses and amounts in an
Excel spreadsheet, and the original statement is long gone, or 5 steps
removed.

Used to be that judges would take such Excel spreadsheets as gospel, but a lot
more often, especially recently, not so much so, often due to the shenanigans
we see here.

------
DoofusOfDeath
It's frustrating that a private citizen had to do this all himself.

It reminds me of the problem of robocall scammers. If the government _really_
cared, the problem would be fixed.

~~~
sjg007
I think the robocallers started calling members of Congress which is why they
got shut down.. Now they just need to be called by the your windows computer
is infected guys.

~~~
Animats
Don't say "Hello" when you answer the phone. Anything other than "Hello" is
treated as "reached answering machine", and the predictive dialer hangs up and
sometimes takes that number off the call list.

~~~
fmj
I was getting hit hard by robodialers for over a year. After a few weeks of
picking up then immediately muting the call until it disconnected it's gone
from one or more calls a day to about one a week. It could have been a
coincidence, but it seems to have worked for me.

------
adamw2k
Seems like an opportunity to setup a one-man non-profit, crowdfund it, and
have him spend the rest of his life working on something he clearly has a
passion for. I imagine many netizens would chip in a few $...

------
bobo_legos
I've been dealing with this for years. Every once in a while I get a call from
some random debt collector looking for a guy with my name who skipped out on
his college loans. I've gotten letters threatening wage garnishment. One time
they even called my Mom's cell phone saying they needed to serve me papers.

The conversation ended when it got to S/Ns(which didn't match) and me
demanding they never call again. Eventually the conversations got real quick
when I'd stop them before they got to begin saying, "No I didn't live at XXX,
No I didn't go to college at XXX, No I don't have XXX in student loans."

Luckily I've never had to deal with the level of threats that this guy went
through. It's been a while since I've gotten a call looking for this guy with
my name. Maybe there's no one left who wants to try to collect this debt.

~~~
sf_rob
I'm very surprised that they stopped bothering you. I got debt collector calls
for years for someone who used to have my number. For a while I tried to get
them to stop calling me by asking for the name of their collection agency (75%
hang up) or by asking that they don't contact me in any form again (compliance
with the Fair Debt Collection Practices Act). The latter works, but they are
legally allowed to resell your debt so the next day I'd get a call from a
different collections agency. You'll never get them all to stop calling you so
it's easier to deal with the one that you know.

Overall it's been an interesting experience. As someone who grew up middle
class, had a scholarship, and lives frugally I would have otherwise not
realized how predatory debt collectors are. Instead I've written my
representatives many times asking that they create stronger consumer
protections in this area.

Edit: Oh, also they aren't legally allowed to share the collections detail of
the individual, so I couldn't research his debts further without claiming to
be him, which I actually considered but decided against.

~~~
oecn908neoau
> You'll never get them all to stop calling you so it's easier to deal with
> the one that you know.

Actually there is a way. I've posted this here before, but can't find it now.
Basically you call the police and file a report saying you're getting
harassing calls. They'll give you a case number and tell you to call your
phone company. You then call the phone company and give them the information
from the police. They'll give you a phone number. Every time you get a call
from the harasser, you call the number they gave you and it makes a note of
where the call came from. (It's not clear if they have information that caller
ID doesn't - like whether they can track down spoofed calls. I'm not sure.)
After 3 or 4 calls, the phone company calls the police and gives them the
information about the harasser. The police call the harasser and tell them to
stop or there will be consequences. In my experience, the harasser then stops.

~~~
FireBeyond
> It's not clear if they have information that caller ID doesn't - like
> whether they can track down spoofed calls. I'm not sure.

Yes and no. CID can be spoofed. But there's another ID (I want to say CNA, but
not sure) that cannot.

VOIP is a different matter, but even there they can at least get to the
originating provider (though they may not be in the US, and may have varying
degrees of cooperation).

~~~
fmj
Pretty sure you're thinking of ANI.

~~~
FireBeyond
You're right, ANI.

------
nautilus12
Just curious, this guy is obviously not getting payed for his heroic effort.
But is there anyway that we can (or should) incentivize this behavior, either
for lawyers or for others? Im guessing lawyers dont make a career out of
hunting these people down because it doesnt really pay because so many are
small potatoes? Can a lawyer comment?

~~~
ficklepickle
I say we crowd fund it and turn it into the feel good reality TV (internet?)
hit of the year

------
djtriptych
Reminds me of the time Optimum continued charging me for SIX MONTHS after
cancelling their ISP service. Couldn't get it resolved and ultimately got
collections notices for the debt. I had to get the city (NYC) involved and
threaten to sue before I got to someone who was willing to resolve it.

~~~
pault
I incorporated an LLC through Legalzoom a few years ago that I didn't end up
using for its intended purpose, so I logged in to cancel the renewal. After
spending about 15 minutes combing through all of the account settings and
reading the fine print I couldn't find any way to cancel the renewal (they
must have forgotten to add that functionality to their UI), I gave up since
the card they had on file was expired anyway, so I figured they would just
cancel the service when they realized they didn't have a valid card on file
anymore. Instead I got a bill from Caine & Weiner Commercial Collection
Division for $160; no warning or notification from Legalzoom. I'm still super
pissed about this and I definitely won't use or recommend Legalzoom to anyone
anymore.

~~~
paulmd
> I gave up since the card they had on file was expired anyway

An expired credit card is not the same thing as one locked for fraud/lost
card/etc.

It is possible to charge an expired credit card, many banks will just roll the
charges onto the new card instead.

~~~
excitom
In my personal experience, as someone who has been taking credit card payments
on the web for over 20 years, no. Charges to expired cards are not accepted.

~~~
FireBeyond
Charges to expired cards are not accepted.

Charges that are both flagged as recurring, and set up before expiry can be
accepted.

------
endorphone
It is off-putting how this story starts with the sort of morally-loaded
rhetoric used to denigrate the indebted. Rhetoric that _only_ is applied to
the lower class, it should be noted.

He was offended at being labelled a "deadbeat" \-- a term they use more than
once -- and then a company wrote him a letter saying he never borrowed from
them (despite the paragraph before saying he did, in fact, borrow from them
[edit - my misreading on that. He doesn't know who he borrowed from]). Okay.

This was a company/group trying to criminally defraud people. Even in the
legitimate debt realm there are criminal tactics to attempt to recover debt,
usually after it has been written off and gone through multiple hands. The
whole debt industry is a scumbag, shady industry, preying on the vulnerable.
The debt/credit industry has an enormous number of punishers, from credit
scores that can prevent you from getting a job to court-ordered remedies. They
don't need the lobsters repeating their nonsense.

~~~
CocaKoala
> then a company wrote him a letter saying he never borrowed from them
> (despite the paragraph before saying he did, in fact, borrow from them).
> Okay.

You misunderstood that paragraph.

He got a payday loan from an online lender, and paid it back promptly. The
online lender was not Vista, the company to which his alleged debt purported
to be owed.

*edited so I don't end a sentence with a preposition. I have no idea how by that slipped me.

~~~
sls
N.B. ending an English sentence with a preposition is fine, c.f.
[https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/grammar/ending-
sentences-w...](https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/grammar/ending-sentences-
with-prepositions) \- it's just aping Latin style

~~~
jdmichal
I'm sure you didn't mean it, but your sentence could be interpreted that
ending with a preposition is aping Latin. That particular tradition comes from
English's Germanic roots. Latin languages typically have non-compound verbs
which cover the same concepts.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phrasal_verb](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phrasal_verb)

~~~
sls
Yes, you're right. I wrote hurriedly and was ambiguous. I meant to say that
the rule about not ending a sentence with a proposition is aping Latin style.
Thanks!

------
codazoda
I recently cancelled Met Life Car Insurance. My new insurance policy was paid
in advance so my old one probably was too. Met Life sent me to collections for
a $180 bill they say I owed after cancelling. My agent, a broker, cannot
explain why I owe the $180 since I had likely paid in advance. I also can't
prove that I don't owe because I'd have to go back through nearly 10 years of
statements to balance everything out. I'm buying a house and can't have the
debt show up on my credit so I pay the bill. Obviously I'm still a little
pissed about it. This article is making me wonder if Met Life or my agent
released my details to a similar company when I cancelled.

As a side note, I wrote a letter to the president of Met Life insurance on
another policy that they had failed to cancel. The president's office
responded with a letter that said they corrected the date and that I had no
balance. That letter came on the same day as another letter showing that it
had been cancelled retroactively but that I owed a remainder of $25. Their
letters were in conflict with each other.

~~~
CGamesPlay
Every time you write a check for a recurring service, in the memo field
include "services through X", so you will always know that you were paying for
services through a given date, and it won't matter if it's paid before or
after the services are rendered.

Similarly, every invoice you got from Met Life should also have a coverage
date range on it. Shouldn't ever be ambiguous.

------
jimnotgym
Not sure about the US but in the UK you should never pay over money to see
where it goes. Paying a debt is an admission, and resets the clock on the time
bar (6 years from last payment a debt is statute barred)

~~~
silverbax88
I read that as well, and I'm pretty sure that's still the case in the US as
well. You _never_ pay "debts" unless you're sure it's legitimate. _NEVER_.

And I say that as a person who has actually done some of the same things as
the man in the article. Not to the lengths he has...but, yeah, I've spooked
quite a few debt collectors. It's one of the few times in life you can unleash
against all the wrongdoing in the world and aggressively berate/hound/harrass
some scumbag who completely deserves it, and has no idea when they've crossed
the wrong person.

------
solaxun
Wow... that was a cathartic read. I wish I could meet Andrew, shake his hand,
and buy him a beer or something.

~~~
AceJohnny2
I, too, can enjoy a good revenge story, especially in the current climate of
credit uncertainty after the Equifax breach.

I expect this will become a much bigger problem.

~~~
solaxun
It's been a problem for a long time with which I've had first hand experience.
Years ago when I was in college a collector called my parent's house after
being rebuked by me and convinced them to pay off the "debt" by appealing to
their parental instincts. The very next day they called back asking for more
stating it wasn't "paid in full". This despite the fact that they had told my
parents the "debt" would be satisfied upon the requested payment. It was
literally an outright lie, no room for interpretation, no grey area.

These people are the scum of the earth and I hate to say it, but all the
misfortune the perpetrators suffered in the article is well deserved (in my
candidly vengeful opinion).

This may not be the soundest advice, but IMO once you've gone to collections,
the credit damage is done, and it's not worth paying them off strictly for the
risk that they may be scamming you. It's sad that that murky corny of the
industry has been allowed to continue harassment of consumers relatively
unabated. I see people in this thread getting down-voted for calling out the
FTC and other agencies for lack of action, but they are dead on.

If one man in his free time during the evenings can bring down a $1bn+
fraudulent operation, how can you possibly think the government is doing
enough? Perhaps Andrew should be hired by the FBI.

------
AElsinore77
If you encounter a problem with agencies collecting on illegitimate debt, it
may be reported to the credit bureaus, which can be a big deal for you (buying
home, etc).

The bureaus wont help you; I went through an 18-month ordeal figuring out how
to clear these things, and heres what I suggest:

-get up to speed on FDCPA rights -officially dispute the collection -pursue the original debtor, and get a resolution in writing. sue them in small claims to get a judgement in your favor if you need to. -send a copy of the resolution to the debt collector and the credit bureau dispute centers

Hope this helps in case anyone is dealing with this kind of stuff.

------
bluetwo
And yet we are letting the president neuter the CFPB.

------
rootlocus
John Oliver covered predatory lending in an episode of Last Week Tonight
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PDylgzybWAw](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PDylgzybWAw)

~~~
cavanasm
And bought a massive amount of student loan debt, which was immediately
forgiven, giving his show the record for largest TV giveaway (taking the
record from Oprah).

~~~
donarb
It was actually medical debt that at one point may have been worth $15M, but
was bought for about $60,000, which is less than one half of one percent of
that value. This was essentially worthless non-recoverable and out-of-statute
debt. Out-of-statute debt is debt that collectors cannot legally sue for. Lots
of symbolism, but no actual relief for debtors.

[http://www.slate.com/blogs/moneybox/2016/06/06/john_oliver_d...](http://www.slate.com/blogs/moneybox/2016/06/06/john_oliver_did_not_really_give_away_15_million_on_his_show.html)

~~~
rootlocus
Considering that people are still harassed for out-of-statue debt, and some
even pay, there is actually some relief. Of course, not $15M relief that's
certain.

~~~
TheCoelacanth
They are also harassed for debt that never actually existed, so it might not
be any relief at all.

------
codedokode
It is interesting that we live in a world where everything is recorded,
companies and even mobile applications collect everything they can, NSA
listens to every international call, but when it comes to catching real
criminals, this system just doesn't work.

------
greymeister
"He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become
a monster. And if you gaze long into an abyss, the abyss also gazes into you."

------
frgtpsswrdlame
Why won't the FTC pursue jail time? I think Andrew is right in not stopping,
this guy perpetrated a huge fraud, just telling him to pay back money he'll
never have isn't enough, he should be behind bars.

~~~
nradov
The FTC isn't a law enforcement agency and has no power to file criminal
charges. However they do notify federal law enforcement when they find
evidence of criminal activity.

------
andrewl
Does anybody know if this kind of thing is as common in other countries as it
is in the US? Are there stronger controls in, say, Germany or France, or
Norway and Denmark, that make abuse on this scale impossible? Or is the
situation as bad in those countries as here?

~~~
raarts
I'm from the Netherlands, in my fifties, but haven't heard of anything like
this here. A quick Google of the Dutch internet also turned up nothing.

------
wnevets
This is what happens when you make debt collection a for profit endeavour.

~~~
razwall
What other kind of endeavor could it possibly be?

~~~
harrumph
>What other kind of endeavor could it possibly be?

Debt collection begins its life as a cost of doing business for the lender or
service provider. It could be forced by law to remain that way by disallowing
the sale of original debt.

~~~
razwall
Fair enough, but it seems arbitrary and capricious to single out debt
collection as the one and only business function that you're not allowed to
outsource. Just like accounting, payroll, advertising, lawyering, etc., it
requires a specialized body of skill and knowledge that many businesses would
rather not have to develop in-house.

~~~
dragonwriter
Preventing selling debt wouldn't prevent outsourcing of collections, I can pay
someone to collect debt without selling them the debt.

I can even make their fee contingent on their success in collection.

~~~
harrumph
>I can pay someone to collect debt without selling them the debt.

True. Legislation designed to reduce collections abuse could make contracting
illegal or strictly limit outsourcing to companies with operational records
that are free of abuse.

------
buckminster
$150 interest on a $500 loan over two weeks does not annualize to 700%. It's
closer to 92,000%!

------
JBlue42
Great story and something I had to help my parents deal with as well (though
not to this extent).

I personally think payday lending should be banned nationwide. The thing is,
there are people that depend on that sort of resource or small loans so what
is a better way to do this that doesn't lead to bad outcomes?

There was all the hoopla over Muhummad Yunas and microloans back in the day
and P2P lending now. I assume there will be some sort of blockchain P2P
lending soon as well.

Also, I used to watch Dirty Jobs every now and then and sometimes the
environment or role would look pretty gross but I can't imagine having to be
one of these people as a job. Swimming in real filth is probably better for
the soul than swimming in this immoral filth.

~~~
rlpb
> I personally think payday lending should be banned nationwide.

The problem is that this just moves the lending into the black market, and
victims get even less protection.

~~~
JBlue42
That's why I wrote a sentence that followed that one asking:

The thing is, there are people that depend on that sort of resource or small
loans so what is a better way to do this that doesn't lead to bad outcomes?

------
coding123
If a single paid employee at the FTC was this vigilant, there might be no
scamming in the US. Time to replace the agency.

~~~
pavel_lishin
Or they're all busy working on other equally important issues. Or they
actually are working on busting other scammers. Or any one of a billion things
that are invisible to you as a "civilian".

~~~
coding123
Make all loans signed by an private key, all payments toward the loan signed
by a private key. If the signatures don't match then credit reporting agencies
should not be allowed to use it. I did more in 1 minute of thought than the
entire ftc just now.

~~~
s73ver_
You posted a comment on a website. You have not done a single thing to
implement that, nor a single thing to tackle the immense logistics of getting
everyone, including people who might not have a computer, a private key,
securing that key, or dealing with the fallout that happens when people's
private keys inevitably get leaked.

~~~
michaelmrose
Why would a central agency even have everyone's private key? All they ought to
have is a record of whom a given public part of the key pair belongs to.

If you lose your private key or leak it you don't go to the government to get
it back you just pay some money to have a second key issued and the original
declared to be invalid.

All debt assigned to the original public part of the key pair would be
transferred to the new one unless you could show that it is fraudulent much
like you would if your debit card number was stolen.

Additionally the private key shouldn't ever be shared it should be stored on a
physical device and proof of having the public key ought to be the only thing
transmitted.

Its true that there are logistical challenges involved but they are the boring
and tedious kind. Work that nobody wants to do.

~~~
pavel_lishin
> _Why would a central agency even have everyone 's private key?_

Why would people store the majority of their cryptocurrency on an exchange?

Besides, a leak can happen without a big centralized repository - a flaw in
the software used to generate and locally store these keys could be exploited,
or a flaw in the generation algorithm itself, or any of a number of things.

> _Its true that there are logistical challenges involved but they are the
> boring and tedious kind. Work that nobody wants to do._

I think that was part of s73ver_'s point, and what coding123 completely
glossed over.

------
s73ver_
Given that the US Supreme Court made the obscene mistake of saying that 3rd
party debt collectors don't fall under the Fair Debt Collection Practices Act,
expect harassment like this to become more common.

~~~
Aloha
Can you show a citation for this? last I looked into this, all debt collectors
are abound to the FDCPA

~~~
razwall
[http://www.scotusblog.com/case-files/cases/henson-v-
santande...](http://www.scotusblog.com/case-files/cases/henson-v-santander-
consumer-usa-inc/)

They were simply confirming the plain meaning of the FDCPA, which applies to
people who collect debt that is owed to another person. Junk debt buyers buy
their debt outright, so they're not collecting on someone else's behalf, so
FDCPA doesn't apply. If people are upset about this, they should direct that
toward Congress for not having amended the law.

~~~
s73ver_
I believe directing ire at the SCOTUS for being that bone headedly idiotic in
that decision, especially in a political environment where they had to have
known there would not be a legislative solution anytime soon is also
warranted.

------
RightMillennial
This was a very compelling read. We need more poeple like Therrien to make a
stand.

The fact that this sort of injustice is allowed to thrive really makes my
blood boil. It makes me wish I had become a lawyer or some other legal
professional instead with the authority to prosecute these predators and
scammers.

------
osamet67
Shameless plug: That's exactly why we started TrueAccord (www.trueaccord.com).

1\. People in debt aren't "deadbeats" and deserve to be treated well 2\. Using
technology to make the process about financial health and treating people like
regular customers makes a huge difference

~~~
snowpanda
You might want to remove Yelp from your featured clients, they aren't exactly
known as a moral company.

------
russellbeattie
Banks and other institutions are willing to sell debt to collection agencies
for pennies on the dollar, but aren't willing to make those same concessions
to the debtors themselves, regardless of circumstance. The whole system isn't
just unfair, it's vindictive.

~~~
nisse72
Solution: become a debt collector, and buy your own debt!

------
johansch
Sweden has this construct that you should probably just copy:

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enforcement_Authority](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enforcement_Authority)

The US seems like it's stuck in the wild west ways of doing things.

~~~
OrwellianChild
Interesting concept, though the Wikipedia article itself seems to indicate
this system has its flaws:

 _" In Sweden, even with the existence of the Enforcement Authority, it is
still considered complicated, so most companies use debt collection companies
for the process anyway, similar to in other countries."_

~~~
tolle
Huh? I mean, if you don't pay a bill, it'll usually go to a private company
trying to collect it at first. But they simply send out another bill with an
additional charge added. After a few attempts they will in turn hand it over
to the Enforcement Authority. I've never heard of anyone using anything but
the Enforcement Authority as a last resort to claim a debt.

------
tmnvix
In Australia, the government has been issuing debt notices[1] to some of the
poorest citizens (beneficiaries) without first confirming the debts actually
exist.

It's been called the 'Robodebt scandal' and it's been going on for a year now.

[http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-03-03/centrelink-debt-
contro...](http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-03-03/centrelink-debt-controversy-
what-is-robodebt/8317764)

[1] Not _strictly speaking_ debt notices, but the gist is the same: "We think
you owe this money. If you can't prove otherwise, we will issue a debt
notice."

------
emmelaich
This is just one reason I'm wary of Basic Income.

Currently there's almost no-one so poor that they can't be scammed or
threatened out of what little they have.

Basic Income could just enrich the predators.

------
sailfast
If you're in the US, file a complaint with the Consumer Financial Protection
Bureau. They will at least try to get a point of contact for the business to
respond to the complaint. In general, there are a number of good answers to
questions and strategies here when responding to collectors:
[https://www.consumerfinance.gov/ask-cfpb/category-debt-
colle...](https://www.consumerfinance.gov/ask-cfpb/category-debt-collection/)

~~~
kevin_b_er
The CFPB is being intentionally attacked by the Republican Party. I suspect
we'll see it completely destroyed in the near future. It helped the common
person too much against banks and false debt. As long as that party maintains
any power, do not expect much anymore out of the government protecting you or
your fellow citizens against abuse from false collectors.

* [http://money.cnn.com/2017/11/28/news/economy/cfpb-trump-mulv...](http://money.cnn.com/2017/11/28/news/economy/cfpb-trump-mulvaney-economy-lending/index.html)

------
mcv
Reading the many comments on this story, I've got to say that the whole debt
and collection situation in the US looks like a complete mess. I almost never
hear these kind of stories from European countries. I have seen companies mess
up their administration, but rarely, and usually with some reason. Never does
it result in thugs calling you and threatening you.

The whole idea that debt gets repackaged and resold to multiple parties is
bizarre.

------
nevir
Ditto taxes.

I moved to California in 2014. In 2016, I got a letter saying I owed back
taxes (state) for 2012 on an estimated income. Took quite some time to clean
that one up :-/

------
paul7986
It's 2017 the solution to this problem is never answer a call from an unknown
caller. Problem solved especially if this guy, his wife and other family
members followed this mantra. A mantra Im sure all of us follow on Hacker
News.

I only pick up the phone from those in my phone book or have a call scheduled
with someone new. I then add them to my contacts or make note of their number.

~~~
s73ver_
That's not really good advice in this situation. There's a decent chance that
the collectors would then ding their credit report or possibly sue.

~~~
paul7986
Well if it’s legit send paper mail.

------
toadi
"Sometimes, Therrien would make a small payment on the fake debt"

Can't do that in my country because that's admitting the debt was right. Also,
debt collectors can't overreach like that here. Need to go to court to get
your money back.

Just bring the proof and normally everything should be OK. At least tha's what
happend with me ;)

------
nautilus12
Is there a way technology can better be leveraged to verify debt? Would such a
centralized system be dangerous? What about a decentralized one? It scares me
that someone can put my name in a spreadsheet with 300 next to it and it can
cause so many to be fooled

~~~
WkndTriathlete
It would be funny if the ultimate use of a blockchain was to validate debt and
put debt scammers out of business instead of being used as a currency
replacement.

------
vadimberman
The guy is a f.n hero!

I don't get it, why was he reluctant to go public?

------
jaredandrews
The body count in this article is unreal.

------
username223
> If it’s just about me, I don’t particularly give a f---. You call my wife,
> and you call my grandparents? You just opened up a door that got really f---
> ing ugly, and now I’m going to make sure that I just ruin your life.

This guy is a hero.

~~~
rootlocus
Actually, for a person who considers themselves a good Christian ("he takes
pride in being a more responsible person than his parents—paying his bills on
time, going to church on Sunday, and taking care of those close to him") that
threat is kind of hypocritical.

The truly correct outcome would have all the stolen money back to the victims
(together with their wasted time and moral damage), and safeguards placed to
make sure this never happens again. Ruining someone's life would serve no
purpose in that direction.

EDIT: Since people have trouble understanding my point: it's not justice
(morally or legally) to ruin someone's life. This guy isn't a hero for making
a threat. He's a hero for making a change which would actually help other
people.

~~~
username223
The Lord our God is hardly a stranger to raining down holy vengeance upon
those who defy His will. "Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord."
(EDIT: I'm an atheist, but there's wisdom in the Bible.)

EDIT: "This guy isn't a hero for making a threat. He's a hero for making a
change which would actually help other people." Please don't downvote this
person.

~~~
rootlocus
There's a lot of fucked up shit in the old testament, including stoning your
children if they misbehave.

~~~
will_brown
How about the New Testament when Jesus cleaned the temple by over turning the
tables of money changers and accusing them of turning the temple into a _den
of thieves_.

Interpret the _threat_ of ruining lives however you like, but at the end of
the day the man conducted a factual investigation and turned over the
information he collected to proper authorities. Seems proportional to someone
threatening to rape his wife in the attempt to collect a non-existent debt.
But tell us what a _good Christian_ in your eyes is supposed to do?

~~~
rootlocus
Surely you understand I was referring to the actual threat as being
hypocritical.

> the man conducted a factual investigation and turned over the information he
> collected to proper authorities.

And I agree, he is a hero for that, regardless of what religion he fancies.

> Seems proportional to someone threatening to rape his wife in the attempt to
> collect a non-existent debt.

Well, it's not actually the same guy who threatened his wife, that guy went
unpunished. Moreover, it wasn't necessary to ruin Joel Tucker life. If Tucker
had enough money to pay back everyone he stole without having to suffer
crippling depression that would've been sufficient.

------
s73ver_
You know, if we switched our law enforcement priorities from low level drug
offenses to getting rid of these scumbags, our prisons might be just as full
(appeasing the private prisons lobby), but at least they'd be full of people
who actually have done wrong, and we'd be making life better for everyone
else.

------
revelation
Obligatory patio11 link:

[http://www.kalzumeus.com/2017/09/09/identity-theft-credit-
re...](http://www.kalzumeus.com/2017/09/09/identity-theft-credit-reports/)

------
vxNsr
Feels like block-chain authentication could resolve parts of this.... If we
required that all debt be digitally signed in a central ledger, either
nationally or by state, and then all payment transactions were also recorded
there, it'd be a lot harder to fake this stuff... first though we need someone
in gov to understand bc tech.

I know that most big banks and FI have a few devs working on some sorta
blockchain ledger for internal transactions, and apparently the big exchanges
are very seriously considering using them as well, so it shouldn't be too
difficult to make the leap to loans.

ugh, I know we hate just saying throw current fad at this problem, but I'd
like to know more why people are against this idea.

I know the idea isn't perfect and would require a lot of work shopping but the
current model of lenders selling each other spreadsheets with just a $$$
amount and phone number simply isn't sustainable.

~~~
shawabawa3
Why blockchain?

If you have a trusted entity (the government) you just need a public database.

~~~
vxNsr
Because that trusted entity kinda sucks at these things. Also it'll mollify
the people who don't wanna cede all control to the government.

Some central database controlled by the government doesn't solve the issue
that all databases have, which is that you need to have absolute trust in the
people who admin that db, the beauty of blockchains is that trust is no longer
needed, as long as the there are a reasonably diverse number of entities
involved no single person can make unilateral changes.

Also this would mean that we could go from each lender and predator having all
my personal info to just retaining my public key which can unlock more info
with their private one, but means they are no longer selling my phone # and
ssn because they don't need to store it.

I truly believe that the power of blockchain tech isn't in $1200 btc but in
powerful and secure logging.

~~~
tzs
> Because that trusted entity kinda sucks at these things. Also it'll mollify
> the people who don't wanna cede all control to the government

In your top level comment you said:

top> If we required that all debt be digitally signed in a central ledger,
either nationally or by state, and then all payment transactions were also
recorded there, it'd be a lot harder to fake this stuff

If we make it required, we've already ceded control to the government, since
it is the government that would control enforcement of the requirement. Even
if the government decides to use a block chain, they still have control
because they get to pick _which_ block chain is used, and they can change that
choice at any time.

Also, who signs this digitally signed debt? If you mean that the debtor signs
it, then I don't see why you even need a public record of the debt as far as
validating debt collection attempts goes. All that needs to be public is the
alleged debtor's public key.

> Some central database controlled by the government doesn't solve the issue
> that all databases have, which is that you need to have absolute trust in
> the people who admin that db, the beauty of blockchains is that trust is no
> longer needed, as long as the there are a reasonably diverse number of
> entities involved no single person can make unilateral changes.

That doesn't require a block chain. All it requires is that more than one
entity keeps a copy of the database.

~~~
vxNsr

        >That doesn't require a block chain. All it requires is that more than one entity keeps a copy of the database.
    

And maybe we should give a few different people copies of the db and every 30
minutes or so they could sync up and add any transactions that happened in the
meantime, and it would be best if they all used some sorta signature to ensure
that all the transactions are legit...

    
    
        >If we make it required, we've already ceded control 
        >to the government, since it is the government that 
        >would control enforcement of the requirement. Even if
        >the government decides to use a block chain, they still 
        >have control because they get to pick which block chain
        >is used, and they can change that choice at any time.
    

We also cede control to the government by using USD but no one (serious) is
suggesting that the government should also be everyone's bank. It's question
of how much control to give up in exchange for what. I see real benefit in a
central loan ledger that doesn't have a single point of failure.

~~~
tzs
> I see real benefit in a central loan ledger that doesn't have a single point
> of failure.

Sure, but you can get that with a conventional database replicated between
several instances hosted by different entities (which do not have to be
government entities).

Think about how records of loans would be used. All the use cases that are
coming to mind for me don't involve any of the things that block chains do
better than conventional replicated databases.

(I'm assuming that the records would be signed by the borrower, and would
contain unique identifiers so that recording the same loan more than once
would be detectable and could be ignored).

For example, block chains are good at dealing with double spending when they
are used to track currency or commodity balances. But I don't see anything
analogous to double spending for a loan existence tracking system, so that
strength of block chains is not relevant.

~~~
vxNsr
I may not understand what you mean by double spending because this whole
article appears to me to be about double spending: different lenders are
claiming the same loan is owed to them even long after the original loan has
been paid off. A central ledger that clearly tracks loans and repayments and
is publicly accessible could be a solution to that problem.

------
pascalxus
Certainly, none of those people deserve to be taken advantage of like that.

But, for those who are willing to pay 150$ interest on a two-week 500$ loan,
they've got even bigger problems. In a world where money is everything, people
must learn how to use it. Basic Personal finance should be taught k-12 as a
primary subject, it's far more important than anything else you could possibly
learn.

~~~
mrkurt
Predatory loans can't really be solved with education, at least not a simple
"personal finance" course. People don't get loans like that because they're
dumb, they get loans like that because they're stuck and desperate:

[https://www.economist.com/news/united-states/21663262-why-
lo...](https://www.economist.com/news/united-states/21663262-why-low-income-
americans-often-have-pay-more-its-expensive-be-poor)

~~~
dazc
'...they get loans like that because they're stuck and desperate.

In the UK we have what's known as 'doorstep lenders' who offer these kinds of
extortionate loans to people who are on benefits (welfare) and who can not get
credit by any other means.

It is fashionable to sneer at their victims as irresponsible and feckless but
these companies have spent years perfecting a methodology that is difficult to
resist.

If you're living hand to mouth and someone offers you a cash loan of £500
there and then it can take a lot of self-control to pass.

A friend of mine has mental health issues and has a real problem with the word
'no'. As a consequence he's found himself a target of these people on numerous
occasions.

~~~
eropple
It is the common and, for some, so very morally upright, to castigate people
for not being proof against practiced, refined methods specifically designed
to take advantage of them. Payday lending in the US or doorstep lending in the
UK is exactly that.

These people are _practiced_. They have built strategies on exactly how to get
the most out of disadvantaged people: the poor with payday lenders, addictive
personalities with casinos or mobile games, all of it. They have bigger guns
and much, much more data about how to aim--but John Q. Public is supposed to
be able to ward all of it off?

Here's an example. Here in Massachusetts we're plagued with scumbags who want
you to sign up for an "alternative energy provider" or whatever. Still uses
your normal electric company but they "source the power" from a company you
select. "It's green," they cry! "It's cheaper," they cry! Of course, what they
don't tell you, as they literally knock on your door and fast-talk you, as
they imply-but-don't-say that they're from your actual power company, into
signing up. Then they jack your rates a few months later, expecting you to not
notice, because the bill comes from National Grid anyway. And there's also a
big cancellation fee after 48 hours, too, so they get you that way too.

The reason I know about these bastards is because one day, a little confused,
a little hungover, and not wanting to look stupid, I got suckered by these
assholes. Some dude knocked on my door, was super duper friendly, and
explained his upsides and not his downsides; sure, this sounds fine, I'll sign
up. Was it stupid? Yeah, it really was. But hey, I messed up. _It happens to
everyone._ For me, the risk is pretty small. It would've been twenty, forty,
sixty bucks extra a month. But I'm in tech! I might not have _noticed_. What
about the barely-speaks-English immigrant who lives two doors away from me and
works at the 7-Eleven down the street? What about the elderly people in my
building? They're not gonna know what happened, they might not even _remember
doing it_ by the time it goes down.

I'm in a more privileged place than most people, in that I'm comfortable with
legalese and how to operate with regards to contracts and that sort of thing.
So, after the high-pressure sales were no longer clogging my brain, I was able
to go "wait, what did I just agree to?". I read the papers left to me, went
"this is awful" and "wow, _fuck_ those guys" respectively, canceled it within
the cancel window, and called my state senator saying "hey, this is totally
bad up, you need to do something about it". I did, what's it called-- _civic
engagement_ , something that actually still works in Massachusetts. And his
office is on it, they've co-sponsored a bill to give the state AG authority to
deal with these scams, and I called my rep and rep-at-large afterwards to make
sure that they're aware of it and are going to vote for the bill. But it's not
just civic engagement, it's _community_ engagement: ever since, because I am
fortunate and I can do it safely because I'm a pretty tall, pretty broad white
dude who has no reason to be intimidated by these people and knows the rules
they have to operate under, any time they come in the building and I'm around,
I make sure they leave, or I call the cops.

This is not something solved merely by education. This is something solved by
the communities in which we all live grabbing the metaphorical torches and
keeping the wolves at bay rather than letting them take the weak. _Not
allowing wolves to eat the least of us_ is why we invented society in the
first place, isn't it?

------
imchillyb
[http://www.usdebtclock.org/](http://www.usdebtclock.org/)

A country that owes 20+ TRILLION dollars in debt, and has a shortfall of cash,
for the current year, in the hundreds of billions of dollars, should NEVER
allow debt collection on its citizens.

Until the country's leadership pays its debts, resolves its deficit, and
starts anew with a clean slate, its citizens should receive the same debt
protection the state enjoys.

If the country won't pay its obligations, the citizens should have free reign
to do the same. What's good for the state, is good for its citizens.

~~~
mikeash
The country pays its obligations. When was the last time the US government
defaulted on its debt?

~~~
lb1lf
May 10, 1979.

(Though in fairness they did own up to it shortly after.)

~~~
mikeash
Neat. And it was (supposedly) a computer-related failure, making it nicely on
topic.

