
Young people don’t want construction jobs - mozumder
https://www.wsj.com/articles/young-people-dont-want-construction-jobs-thats-a-problem-for-the-housing-market-1533029401
======
CydeWeys
Wow, the entire article doesn't mention once what the average wage for entry-
level construction workers is. That's probably a huge part of the puzzle -- to
omit that seems almost intentionally misleading, or at least bad journalism.

Also, construction is a job that's notoriously hard on your body. You can't
count on being able to do it into your 60s like office work, and one bad
accident can end your career in construction (or just flat out end you). And
the work itself is hard. Pay needs to be higher than other jobs to compensate
for this. I know I'd rather be, say, a Starbucks barista than a construction
worker, even if the latter paid a little bit more.

~~~
wccrawford
Seems like $14.07.

[https://www.payscale.com/research/US/Job=Construction_Labore...](https://www.payscale.com/research/US/Job=Construction_Laborer/Hourly_Rate/42fc8d3e/Entry-
Level)

Even "Construction Worker" doesn't bring it up much ($14.75), which means
there's nothing in that career directly.

[https://www.payscale.com/research/US/Job=Construction_Worker...](https://www.payscale.com/research/US/Job=Construction_Worker/Hourly_Rate)

The next step in that career is to be a manager or foreman. The Foreman only
gets $22.36. ($38k/yr)

[https://www.payscale.com/research/US/Job=Construction_Forema...](https://www.payscale.com/research/US/Job=Construction_Foreman/Hourly_Rate)

What does a college grad make? $50k/yr.

[http://time.com/money/collection-post/3829776/heres-what-
the...](http://time.com/money/collection-post/3829776/heres-what-the-average-
grad-makes-right-out-of-college/)

Carpenter, handyman and general contractor do better than construction.

[https://www.payscale.com/research/US/Industry=Home_Renovatio...](https://www.payscale.com/research/US/Industry=Home_Renovation/Hourly_Rate)

So yeah, I'm not surprised that people aren't excited about a career in
construction.

~~~
bobthepanda
Depends on the market you're in and what you can do.

> A crane operator in New York City earns $82.15 an hour in base pay and
> benefits, according to the Engineer News-Record, a trade publication. That's
> well's above the $66 an hour he would earn in Chicago or the $39 an hour in
> Washington, D.C.

> But the real reason New York crane operators and other operating engineers
> earn such big salaries is overtime and benefits. A relief crane operator
> working 56 hours of overtime per week for 52 weeks will earn $332,667 in
> overtime and $159,053 in overtime benefits at the World Trade Center. As a
> worker's salaries go up, so do the amounts employers must kick in for
> annuities and pensions.

[https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424052702303936704576399...](https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424052702303936704576399563008284024)

~~~
conanbatt
Thats unions, but such thing also reduces the amount of housing and
construction you can make.

~~~
null000
If it can't be built with labor compensated by living wages, it probably
doesn't need to be built all that bad...

~~~
conanbatt
Say the homeless and the 30 year-olds living with their parents and the
unemployed or workers earning less than unionized workers.

------
learc83
What's the endgame for construction workers? Everyone can't move into
management. Many people's bodies can't handle that kind of manual labor for 40
years, and even if they could construction jobs tend to be insecure.

If you want people to make those trade offs you have to pay more.

This kind of rhetoric from companies drives me nuts. They push to remove
regulations, but when the free market says they have to pay more for labor,
suddenly it's not the free market driving up wages, it's a worker shortage.
Now we need the government to step in and fix it. You see it most obviously
with tech companies pushing for STEM in public schools and the push for more
H-1Bs.

~~~
OldSchoolJohnny
The end game used to be wealthy retirement because it paid extremely well. And
on a side note people's bodies _can_ and do handle that kind of manual labour
for 40+ years. Not all of course, some get hurt, some are not cut out for it,
but go to any manual work site and you will see older people in their 50's and
60's still in excellent physical shape doing it and younger people doing the
really hard shitty jobs since time immemorial.

~~~
learc83
>older people in their 50's and 60's

I edited "most people" to "many people" because I really don't have the
numbers.

From anecdotal experience from friends and family, I'd think most people won't
make it through 40 years of hard manual labor without injury. For every 60
year old you see on a job site, we don't know how many of their peers have
stopped working construction.

------
Kluny
I'd love to work construction. But every time I've mentioned it to my family
they tell me about how it will destroy my knees and back, I'll lose fingers,
get hearing damage, head injuries, and the pay is crap compared to the risk.

If there was decent workplace safety (my hometown is infamous for it's poor
safety standards), and a good pension program where you're expected to want to
quit and do something else after 10 years or so, before your body is ruined,
then I'd be all about it.

~~~
49531
This is a big reason why unions were created in the first place. Create safer
working conditions, and make it possible for people who wear their bodies out
can retire.

~~~
bodas
But what if I want to retire with a healthy body not a crippled one?

~~~
lotsofpulp
Then you choose not to perform manual labor. In an ideal situation, the market
will pay people a premium for choosing to sacrifice their bodies, assuming
everyone is competing on a level playing field and you don't have a huge
supply of undereducated workers from another country who have no other
options.

------
OldSchoolJohnny
Many of these news stories about labour shortages could alternatively be
summarized as "Company expects perpetual huge profits and people to continue
to work for next to nothing"

------
tekstar
These types of jobs eventually burn out your body.

You used to be able to buy a house and grow a family on these wages, and
eventually retire. With that no longer being the case, why would anyone with
choice choose this option?

~~~
yellowcherry
My dad did these jobs his whole life. He's in still in better shape than I've
ever been and has a union pension better than anything any company has ever
offered me.

So.

~~~
logfromblammo
That's the point. You couldn't get the same deal as he got, because the
industry has changed to be more worker-hostile since your father started.

No company in your industry has ever offered you anything like his union
pension, because no companies in any industry (excepting maybe railroads?)
offer anything like his union pension. They all stopped doing it some time
between him and you.

The young people of today can't go back in time to when your dad was the same
age. They have to take the jobs that are offered now. And the companies of now
have worked very hard to bust the union influence of the past, so that they
can offer crap pay and crap benefits, and shovel most of the risks of working
the job onto the worker.

Young people are taking one look at that, and deciding to not even take one
step down that career path. All this tells me is that young people are not as
stupid as companies assumed them to be. The companies offering jobs that don't
balance remuneration with worker risk then have to rely on workers with lower
expectations, which is to say immigrants from countries with lower quality-of-
life norms. They don't look at the work by judging the job in relation to
other jobs in the US, but by comparing it to a similar job in their country of
origin, and finding that it is X% better. Then the political scene changes,
those workers start to dry up, and the companies are screwed--or, more
accurately, hoist on their own petards.

------
jeffreyrogers
I've been wondering about the long term sustainability of the rise of service
jobs in the developed world. If you can work in finance, law, medicine, or
tech that's great. Those are all high skill, high paying jobs. Unfortunately,
most people aren't cut out for them, largely due to genetic and environmental
factors that they have no control over. So what is the rest of the workforce
supposed to do? Work in restaurants and other low-skill, low-paying service
jobs?

That doesn't seem sustainable long term. I worry that by losing goods-
producing jobs like manufacturing and construction we are creating a long-term
problem where people who can't produce high value services end up living an
impoverished life. To some extent you could address this problem by making
immigration easier which would help create more low-labor cost, goods-
producing jobs, which would in-turn lead to more low-skill service jobs.

------
null000
> generally well-paid [1]

Three seconds on google suggests that they make <40k in my area, typically.
That's definitely _not_ well paid, especially for a job that's fickle and
physically demanding. Hell, that's barely above minimum wage (I'm in a $15/hr
area, minimum wage is $32k) - I can get an office job tomorrow paying close to
the same with basically no effort.

As usual, whenever someone blames labor for labor shortages, just look at the
wages. If you pay less than a waiter earns with tips while demanding more out
of your workers, don't expect people to be lining up at the door. Same goes
for farm labor. Same goes for teachers. Same goes for truckers. And so on.

[1] - taken from the Non-WSJ alternative in the comments below

~~~
CydeWeys
Good point about the employment being fickle. Construction workers get screwed
in pretty much every recession, the previous one being particularly bad. The
only negative that happened to me in 2008 was we didn't get an annual bonus.
The average construction worker saw much reduced hours over a period spanning
years, or lost their job entirely. There was a huge outflow from the
construction sector during that recession, disproportionately large compared
to almost every other employment sector.

------
mamurphy
Non-WSJ Alternative (seems to be an affiliated summary):
[https://www.marketwatch.com/story/young-people-are-
shunning-...](https://www.marketwatch.com/story/young-people-are-shunning-
construction-jobsand-its-hurting-the-housing-market-2018-07-31)

------
crooked-v
So pay them more.

~~~
conanbatt
There isnt a market for that: increased wages would increase house prices and
the developer estimates he cant sell the house.

If land were cheaper you would see rising wages.

~~~
CydeWeys
If there isn't a market for it then there isn't a shortage of labor -- the
correct equilibrium point has been found. And yet, they're claiming a
shortage. They want to eat their cake and have it too.

~~~
mozumder
And this is how you cause an economy to collapse, by raising inflation.

The market doesn’t know what’s good for it. It’s only interest is the
immediate short term.

~~~
zaccus
Inflation provides an incentive to not hoard cash. As long as it's under
control, it's not a bad thing.

~~~
conanbatt
If I tell you im burning your wallet at the end of the day, will your spending
be better or worse?

We can test this :)

------
chuckgreenman
I love all these "Young people don't want $job_type any more". And then go on
to talk about how the jobs don't pay enough, or aren't attracting talent
because it's not interesting.

Over the past couple of decades the percentage of young people getting degrees
has swelled, we've been encouraging everyone to get a degree. Did we expect
people to remain in low paying jobs when they can do something else? Those
student loans payments aren't making themselves.

~~~
TheCoelacanth
Why don't young people want to take difficult and dangerous jobs for 1.5x
minimum wage? I can't figure it out.

------
craig1f
The funny thing is, growing up, construction is awe-inspiring.

In my last position, I worked across the street from where they were putting
up two buildings. We'd gawk over how brave they must be to be up that high on
the rafters.

~~~
CydeWeys
Same. I always love looking at buildings in various stages of construction. I
designed and built a shed from scratch five years ago and it was highly
enjoyable (and of course a lot of hard work). Just the amount of research to
figure out how to do everything properly really satisfies that "geeking out on
a new hobby" urge.

I think people underestimate how bad the whole "being outside during all four
seasons" aspect of these jobs is, though. Most other jobs are indoors, whether
they're highly skilled (e.g. SWE) or not (e.g. fry cook).

------
burlesona
This seems to me primarily about the wages versus cost of living in the places
where construction demand is high. I would also point to this as a death
spiral for a housing bubble.

The article mentions labor commuting from Sacramento to SF where the wages are
higher, thus driving up prices in Sacramento due to lack of supply. That kind
of domino effect eventually makes it so SF can't get labor because the labor
has shifted to live 90' outside of Sacramento and commute there instead. At
some point wages do have to go up, driving up costs further in a vicious
cycle.

I don't know when but I believe another broad housing market collapse is
coming.

------
platz
The market will decide!

------
linksnapzz
Drywall rotting on the trucks, for lack of people to hang it.

------
dccoolgai
Why would they? You've spent the last 30 years telling them not to do those
jobs, devaluing them with globalization and de-unionizing them to make sure
those jobs don't create any kind of sustainable lifestyle for the people that
do them. Someone on HN a while back gave some good advice: whenever you see
"people won't do X job", append in your mind the qualifier "for Y underpaid
salary/benefits package".

~~~
nickthemagicman
On point. You want people just give then good salaryies, benefits, and career
growth.

~~~
patrickaljord
I know a few people in construction, they started working for someone by
fixing doors, do painting etc. until they learned enough to find their own
clients. It's easier than you think to find a friend who needs something to
get fixed and get more clients from there by doing local advertising or even
door to door knocking to check if people need some fixes. These people I know
now hire their own workers (and still work themselves too) and make more than
many college graduates I know.

Not saying anyone who gets into construction makes millions but there
definitely is a path for growth and good pay is possible. It is however not a
glamorous job, you need to get your hand dirty and work with some unhealthy
products you need to protect yourself from (as much as you can at least...).
It's a tough job but it does pay well. I personally wouldn't do it because of
the physical aspect but financially it is definitely interesting.

~~~
lowercased
> It's easier than you think to find a friend who needs something to get fixed
> and get more clients from there by doing local advertising or even door to
> door knocking to check if people need some fixes.

And... treat it like a business. Show up on time. Answer your
phone/text/emails. If you need to cancel, give notice.

I'm continually flummoxed at how generally bad service industries are in many
areas. We had one guy cutting our lawn. BEST EVER. Younger kid - showed up on
time, notified ahead when he was coming, would notify if he couldn't make it
re: weather delays, then would give us updated time/date. Even more
"professional" than professional services we've used. We had one good year,
then "I'm going to college, and can't do this any more". He could probably
earn more expanding out his operation than he will from whatever college
degree he will get. :(

~~~
lotsofpulp
At what cost might he earn more money? He loses socioeconomic status by being
a landscaper, so his value in the dating market drops. He sacrifices health by
being out in the sun all the time, inhaling fuel, increased risk of injury
from driving around everywhere. Maybe he can have his own business someday,
and have others do the work, but is he wise to play those odds if he also has
a decent chance at becoming a doctor/lawyer/engineer/trader/banker?

~~~
lowercased
Nothing saying he couldn't hire more people now. There's (imo) an unmet need
for quality service providers. Maybe it's just local to my area, and everyone
else is doing great(?)

------
minikites
Young people already can't afford houses so it seems like a self regulating
problem.

------
gldev3
All they have to do is offer 300k a year and unlimited PTO. Ez.

------
stealthmodeclan
Why not bring labor on demand from South Asia or Africa.

------
johnvega
3D printing construction tech should be a great way to offset this. Also great
for space explorations.

~~~
berbec
Scaling 3D printers to the size and cost require for usefulness is an
interesting idea. Otherwise, you're talking about a Lego house.

~~~
_rpd
16 House 3D Printers Available in 2018

[https://www.aniwaa.com/house-3d-printer-
construction/](https://www.aniwaa.com/house-3d-printer-construction/)

