
Thank HN: Our friend is Safe and Sound - jacquesm
http://jacquesmattheij.com/thank-hn-our-friend-is-safe-and-sound
======
btilly
No. Thank YOU, Jacques!

I am one of the HNers who knows the details on this case. And I can say, with
great confidence, that without tremendous generosity from Jacques, a talented
young woman that he has never directly met would be in very bad circumstances
indeed.

~~~
scorpion032
So Jacques flew down to Delhi (from where?) to fight a legal case with the
local police and politician to free some (talented young lady, also on HN)
one?

~~~
jacquesm
No, not even close. I never left the Netherlands. We hired a lawyer in Delhi
by remote control so to speak to meet with her upon arrival and to guide her
during the court case(s) that were sprung upon her on the following Monday.
The whole thing went down in 72 hours from start to finish, there was very
little time to react especially because we didn't quite know what to make of
the initial reports.

Once we were sure that she had indeed been taken we worked on making sure that
there would be as strong a response as we could muster.

------
gratefulhner
I am the person of interest in this case.

Thank you HN for pulling together a miracle that saved me by the skin of my
teeth.

Thank you pg for creating this amazing community.

~~~
cskau
I respect that you guys have made a decision to keep the details out of the
public sphere, but if I may, I'd like to ask this one question.

I believe it was stated that this all got started because some influential guy
got crossed and is now pulling strings to make your life bad.

Now given that we're on HN I can't help wondering if this is in any way
startup related; Are we talking some kind Startup vs Big Corp situation here?
If so I figure it might be of value and interest to the HN community to know
at least this as an outline.

Should startups in India and elsewhere fear the same situation?

~~~
btilly
I know enough to be able to confidently say that this is a personal situation.

The only startup connection is that the person to whom it is happening is a
person who would like to be heavily involved in startups, and whose talents
would make that a natural thing to do once this situation is resolved.

India does have potential issues for startups around corruption, bribery, a
slow legal system and so on. However I'm not aware of any shocking targeting
of startups.

------
edanm
Great news! Thanks for letting us know.

I'm sure I speak for many here when I say that your and swombat's combined
reputation is definitely enough to be able to make such requests, even without
details, whenever you need.

------
srean
Could anyone shed light on why the police act like they do. Is it to get ahead
in their career graph, is it to augment their salary, is it out of fear ? Is
it just because everybody else is doing it and there are lack of role models ?

If it is more than speculation that would be better, like insider stories.

Do people aspire to join the civil services because it opens up this wide
possibility to be corrupt and wield power ? I have seen that many do,
sometimes by the dormfull.

I am Indian, but it is as inpenetrable to me as it is to anybody else.

~~~
jacquesm
My guess is they're not happy about it either but if the pressure comes from
high up enough they have to relent. One part of it may be that they think that
even if they're doing the wrong thing legally they're doing it out of some
moral obligation to stick together or to protect the old boys network.

I've never dealt with anything like this before so it is hard to gain any
insight into what motivates people like this in general.

~~~
eshvk
> My guess is they're not happy about it either but if the pressure comes from
> high up enough they have to relent. One part of it may be that they think
> that even if they're doing the wrong thing legally they're doing it out of
> some moral obligation to stick together or to protect the old boys network.

Also, community (tribe, caste, same language) in India is super important. So
if the higher up is from the same community, there is a higher likelihood that
the cop will accede to his request. Another issue is that it is easy for a
cop/public official who refuses demands from politicians (or any one important
really) to get "transferred". This means that the person gets uprooted from
wherever they were leaving and gets moved to a random part of the state or
country. As you might imagine, not many people prefer doing this.

~~~
jacquesm
What threat would cause a particular officer to do something against their
oath is beyond my imagination. It just should not happen.

Of course that's an idealists view and in practice people will be guided by
other things including their personal interests.

Caste is likely an important factor in this particular case.

~~~
easternmonk
> What threat would cause a particular officer to do something against their
> oath is beyond my imagination. It just should not happen.

For a police officer who does not comply to pressure from politicians and the
goons, following things can happen in the order of severity.

1\. Transfer order to Police Training center 2\. Transfer order to Naxalite
area (Naxalites are terrorists who rule certain part of India where the
government law is no obeyed). 3\. Suspension order. 4\. The local politician
may enter the police station and slap the police. (Have seen this happening).
5\. The local politician may strip the police officer in front of general
public and his subordinates. 6\. The police officer may come under a running
truck.

The real problem with police system in India is that it is still governed by
the same laws that were formed by the British. British rulers used the police
force mostly to control the natives by use of force. Top level politicians
were given too much control over police force de facto and de jure. The Indian
government did not bother to change the police system because they found it
too convenient.

Indian police has very limited training. Only some officers are allowed to
have handguns. Since India does not manufacture Guns neither imports them the
guns given to these officers are the ones that were caught during smuggling.
These guns don't work. During the 26/11 Islamic terror attack on mumbai many
officers died only because they guns jammed and failed to fire.

Training of police is centralized. New recruits are passed through some basic
training which involves jumping around, marching and introduction to laws.
Thats all. After the join their job there is no training for them what so
ever.

Why the hell do people join Police then ?

Most of the people who join Police force buy these job by paying the local
politicians. A job of constable (lowest position) costs around $10,000. After
that you have to pay anywhere between $10000 - $50,000 to get a transfer to a
desired area. Price will be higher if opportunities to take bribes in that
area is higher. The police then jsut wants to augment their salary by
expecting bribes.

Every time you want to renew your passport you have to visit your local police
station. Even if you have not criminal record the police takes anywhere
between $10 - $50 to give you that certificate.

Powerful people use Police like servants of their house or in some cases like
slaves.

~~~
fakeer
Another threat \- They might as well end up dead somewhere. Extreme but not
unimaginable.

------
kmfrk
Can someone explain how these Indian bogus prosecutions work? Is it something
the government does?

~~~
jacquesm
In a nutshell, if you know the right people you can file a case that the
police would normally not accept in order to further some private goal. If
enough people in the line of command under the person that you have 'in your
pocket' start acting out your fantasy then you may well get what you wish,
even if that is a complete abuse of police power and state resources. The
police then becomes a tool in one citizens fight against another and this can
cause great harm to come to the person that has less power. And worst of all
they can't even run to the police for protection!

Pissing off someone in a powerful position in a country like India is not a
good idea. Persisting in this and getting away with it for a year or more is
something that can get you in a boatload of trouble, even if you've done
nothing wrong because it makes all those people look pretty silly.

After all, what use are all those connections and all your wealth if it does
not achieve the goals that you've set...

In this particular case there are lots of twists and turns that make this more
bizarre than what you could conclude from what is written here. Let's just
leave it at that I have had the boundaries of what I thought people were
capable of putting each other through thoroughly tested and subsequently
breached.

There are no 'winners' in this case, only losers and some temporary reprieve.
Let's hope that in the long run this whole thing can be laid to rest without
any chance of repercussions or repetitions.

One of the prosecuting police officers in this case - that I've had some
correspondence with - is on the record as wanting to beat me up for
interfering with his case. Sucks to be him, and good for me I'm not anywhere
near India. Of course if you don't get your way as an officer nothing trumps a
little police brutality or the threat thereof to show who is the boss.

I guess a holiday in India is out for the moment ;)

When the police is no longer acting in the interest of _every_ citizen of a
country but structurally works at the behest of the rich and powerful you get
all kinds of messed up situations.

In this case the protagonist got lucky, she knew a guy who knew a guy who
happened to hang around on the same forum as she does. And the last one knew a
good lawyer. Collectively that forum is a very powerful entity. If not for
that this would have ended very differently. Six degrees ftw.

And for every person like this there are an untold number who are not in the
possession of connections to some international community.

That's the really sad part.

~~~
maddalab
I am glad your friend has received a reprieve. I was born and raised in India
and have spent my last 11 years in America. As such, I have great affection
for both countries. In both countries one is innocent until proven guilty.

It is not unheard of, of someone having to fight the good fight against great
odds and the occasional corrupt public servant causing grievance. I also
assure you the average Indian is _not_ corrupt, and since the those in public
service are selected from the same average Indians, they are not as you have
repeatedly in these 2 threads made them out to be.

To execute an arrest in India requires the police to file a FIR (First
information report) and for a judge to approve an arrest warrant on the basis
of information in the FIR. Much like in the US, there are jurisdictional rules
governing state and federal oversight. Your friend was arrested in the state
of Maharashtra and taken to the state of Delhi. Given these facts, you are
claiming collusion among multiple state and federal agencies and judiciary,
acting out on blatantly false information in an FIR.

From having spent 24 years in India in a upper middle class family, I can
assure you from anecdotal evidence that I never crossed paths with anyone in a
position so powerful to exert such clout. It quite simply is the case that
people with such clout rarely if ever socialize in places that most people do.

All of this begs the question why and how did your friend come to be involved
with such people and why her support structure is so poor as for having you to
make a public request for help. More over all information in this matter is in
the public domain the moment a FIR was filed and can be obtained by anyone
with a request under the auspices of right to information act.

The very fact that you received help from the very people raised in the same
society that you claim to be corrupt should make you reevaluate you belief in
the account of events you have received.

In summary, I'm sorry I _don't_ believe your account of corruption and
discrimination without basis against your friend. They is likely an element of
truth in what you say but your account is almost certainly skewed. I also _do_
believe that your friend is innocent until proven guilty.

I request you to immediate _STOP_ your innuendo on account of hearsay against
a country I hold dear

~~~
jacquesm
> From having spent 24 years in India in a upper middle class family, I can
> assure you from anecdotal evidence that I never crossed paths with anyone in
> a position so powerful to exert such clout.

Well, that's really good for you then. I highly doubt you and our friend have
much in common.

> All of this begs the question why and how did your friend come to be
> involved with such people and why her support structure is so poor as for
> having you to make a public request for help.

Yes, this strikes to the heart of this case, but frankly it is none of your
business. The only thing that matters is that it did.

Much as I regret it things happened exactly as related.

And if you keep rejecting evidence that does not support your hypothesis on
how things really are out of hand then you'll never be able to change your
point of view.

So the fact that you can not imagine something or that it has not happened to
you or is not something you have heard about happening does not preclude such
a thing from being real. Merely quite unlikely, and given what I know about
this case I highly doubt another one exactly like it will happen, but at the
same time the general case of it is probably repeated several times per year
with various outcomes depending on the actors.

> Much like in the US, there are jurisdictional rules governing state and
> federal oversight. Your friend was arrested in the state of Maharashtra and
> taken to the state of Delhi. Given these facts, you are claiming collusion
> among multiple state and federal agencies and judiciary, acting out on
> blatantly false information in an FIR.

Indeed.

And what's even more interesting here is that the police pursued this folly
knowing it full well to be false after having been informed of that very fact
by a large number of individuals and organizations.

Of course it hurts that in a country that you hold dear there is corruption.

But keep in mind that I have not railed against India or against Indians in
general. Only against those particular Indians that have in this case bent the
law to suit their purpose, to unjustly pursue one that need their protection
and not their persecution.

> In summary, I'm sorry I don't believe your account of corruption and
> discrimination without basis against your friend.

Your beliefs are of no concern to me, all that matters is that which is real
and that which isn't. This is about as real as it gets.

It's not hearsay if you're in the middle of it... and what you have or have
not experienced has 0 bearing on what we are experiencing right now.

~~~
maddalab
> Well, that's really good for you then. I highly doubt you and our friend
> have much in common.

Correct. You just made my point. For starters better judgement would prevent
me from putting myself in a position of compromise as your friend has
seemingly done.

> Yes, this strikes to the heart of this case, but frankly it is none of your
> business. The only thing that matters is that it did. > And if you keep
> rejecting evidence that does not support your hypothesis on how things
> really are out of hand then you'll never be able to change your point of
> view.

There has been no evidence presented either for or against at this time. Just
hearsay, primarily your account of events.

> So the fact that you can not imagine something or that it has not happened
> to you or is not something you have heard about happening does not preclude
> such a thing from being real.

I clearly stated in my previous comment that there is likely an element of
truth in what you say. Your response by not taking the time understand what
has said clearly indicates an emotional response. Your judgement is this
particular matter is clearly clouded.

> Only against those particular Indians that have in this case bent the law to
> suit their purpose, to unjustly pursue one that need their protection and
> not their persecution.

Your credibility as it may be on HN has no standing in a court of law. You are
neither a witness nor a defendant. I would very must like to see this
particular case go to court and the full extent of truth be revealed. From
your responses it is clear that you prefer this not be the case. "Satyamev
Jayate" (Truth prevails) is inscribed on India's national emblem. I have far
greater faith in the Indian constitution, than your ranting and raving on this
forum.

> But keep in mind that I have not railed against India or against Indians in
> general. >Of course it hurts that in a country that you hold dear there is
> corruption.

Yes you have. Your claims of police brutality, collusion of state
institutions, corruptions and other such are railing against India. I
requested you to stop this. I have no interest in your or your friends
particular standing/stake in the matter.

~~~
jacquesm
> For starters better judgement would prevent me from putting myself in a
> position of compromise as your friend has seemingly done.

You are making a lot of claims here without knowing any of the details of this
case. My friend did not have any opportunity at all to change anything about
themselves or to exercise 'better judgement' that would have prevented any of
this from happening. Their only alternative to being prosecuted would be to
give themselves up, and I hope you will agree with me that that is not an
option.

> There has been no evidence presented either for or against at this time.

HN is not a court of law, you are not a judge and you have no right to any
evidence.

> Just hearsay, primarily your account of events.

You will notice that:

1) 3 long time HN'ers with an impeccable reputation have confirmed this, 4 if
we include the subject, but since they've posted anonymously in this thread
(and they should) we'll exclude them from the tally.

2) A reputable Delhi lawyer thought the case was serious enough to take it on,
on extremely short notice.

3) Two judges agreed with our view of the case.

Those things alone would seem to have enough weight to counter your incessant
unbelief. I find it hard to imagine that in light of that you would persist.
So if you have no dog in the fight, why would you be so categorically denying
something happened if you don't have all the facts?

> I clearly stated in my previous comment that there is likely an element of
> truth in what you say. Your response by not taking the time understand what
> has said clearly indicates an emotional response. Your judgement is this
> particular matter is clearly clouded.

I took out more time than I am obliged to give you as level headed a response
as possible.

> Your credibility as it may be on HN has no standing in a court of law.

HN is not a court of law. But in a real court of law not one but _two_ judges
agreed with my view of this case. What makes you think you can trump their
judgement?

> You are neither a witness nor a defendant.

That did not stop me from contributing to the case. The fact that I did make
myself available as a witness (as did Daniel) and helped to arrange for a
lawyer shows you that I am more than peripherally involved.

> From your responses it is clear that you prefer this not be the case.
> "Satyamev Jayate" (Truth prevails) is inscribed on India's national emblem.
> I have far greater faith in the Indian constitution, than your ranting and
> raving on this forum.

Well, truth prevails, but light is the best weapon you have in case truth is
about not to prevail and there is more to this world than your limited view of
it. Arraigning a young person after forcibly moving them from their home
without representation and with submarine claims against them is a surefire
way to make the truth not prevail. I sincerely hope that you won't ever have
your bubble burst because it will likely be a rude awakening. If such should
happen feel free to call upon my help, I'm not going to hold your ignorance
here against you.

Going to court does not automatically mean that justice will be done. It's a
distinct possibility but by no means a certainty.

> Yes you have. Your claims of police brutality, collusion of state
> institutions, corruptions and other such are railing against India.

Of course it does not rail against India, but that is what you want to hear.
You are essentially making a straw-man argument here, and in the process you
have revealed something that I had a question about so far: Why is it that
within India people are not standing by each other in a situation like this?
You have helped me by supplying a partial answer to that question.

They are simply facts.

Facts you do not like, but facts nonetheless.

> I requested you to stop this.

Asking me to stop this is asking me to deny the facts. That would be a very
dangerous thing for me to do, and it goes against my nature.

> I have no interest in your or your friends particular standing/stake in the
> matter.

No, that much is clear. So then maybe you should not engage those familiar
with the facts of this case and pretend that you know more about it than we
do.

Because I _DO_ have a stake in the matter, my friends' standing is of
importance to me and the injustice that is being done to her is as well. What
you believe or do not believe is utterly irrelevant.

------
brfox
Original post asking for help:

<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4739649>

------
duiker101
This is a great news, thanks for letting us know. I hope everything will be
fine also in the future. Good luck.

------
lucb1e
Follow-ups to news are so rare - thanks for posting this!

I couldn't help, but I saw/read the original thread.

~~~
jacquesm
If there is one thing I don't like it is exactly that follow ups are so rare.

The 'whatever happened with 'x'?' feeling is something I have quite frequently
and most of the time other than the initial burst of coverage there usually is
nothing afterwards to indicate how the whole thing ended.

Depending on how strong you feel about a subject that can be quite irritating.

~~~
lucb1e
Yes, exactly. I actually never mentioned this to anyone, good to know I'm not
the only one who likes to hear follow-ups ^^

------
easternmonk
I am really glad that someone helped you guys find an advocate. That was a
small thing you asked for.

Not that I would have managed to help in this particular case in any big way
but I think we should always be wary of helping people who wont even put the
facts before you. Hope we dont see more such request for help on HN.

I am saying this because in past I have faced situations like this and after I
offered help I realized that I was in fact siding with the bad guys.

------
skyebook
Glad to hear about the positive outcome, I followed the original thread and
was similarly impressed by the outpouring of support.

------
pknerd
Great News! It shows that entrepreneurship is not all about making money and
ideas but also making others happy too :)

------
datalus
This is why the Internet is awesome :) I read the original article, glad to
hear it turned out positive.

------
melissamiranda
This is great to hear, glad you're able to get to the right people so quickly!

------
kami8845
I feel a

    
    
      $('#if-you-read-this-you-should-follow-me-on-twitter').remove()
    

would be appropriate for this blog post. In any case - good to see the HN
community really coming through in a time of need.

~~~
jacquesm
I agree with you.

But what with the re-generation time of the blog and the fact that this wasn't
meant to be a blog post to begin with (HN has an upper limit to the length of
the text in an article header) I feel that leaving it in there is ok.

It would be a ton of work to get it excised for just that one posting and
frankly I have more urgent things to do than to worry about being perceived as
politically incorrect.

Those who know me do not care and those who don't are probably not going to be
persuaded that this wasn't a ploy to get some more twitter followers or karma
points.

So, now that we have that out of the way, and since you started it: I
personally don't like it - even if I agree - when people are bitching all the
time about formatting and things external to the body of the article that is
posted.

It isn't rare at all to see a whole thread about an interesting or important
text unravel into a discussion about fonts, style sheets in general, various
plugs for readability or suggestions like yours. It's off-topic and detracts
from the original message, which was a simple, genuine and heartfelt 'thank
you', without any ulterior motive or other ploy. I'm not selling you anything,
not trying to get people to click on advertising and I frankly couldn't care
less about how this impacts what people think of me. I simply felt that we
owed HN a sign of gratitude and found the easiest way to express that.

Of course it is much easier to nit-pick about style and format rather than to
contribute positively (or even negatively) on the substance. And so you'll
find lots of people vote such non-contributing stuff up, which often crowds
out the real discussion.

I used to work in a bike repair shop where they had a large sign that said 'if
you've got nothing to do, don't do it here'. Something similar applies to off
topic gripes about the format instead of the message.

~~~
kami8845
Hi Jacques - it's nice talking to you, you have some good stuff on your blog.

>external to the body of the article that is posted.

Well you see, that is EXACTLY the problem.

The way you formatted the blog, the "you should follow me on twitter" thing it
is COMPLETELY indistinguishable from the body of the post. I can promise you
that every single person that reads that blog post to the end also reads "you
should follow me on twitter". It's even the same freaking spacing as another
paragraph. I'm pretty sure this is intentional, hell, I'm doing much a similar
thing on my own blog:

<http://doda.co/7-python-libraries-you-should-know-about>

>It would be a ton of work to get it excised for just that one posting

Really? I feel now you're just talking from the rear.

Here. I took a look at your blog. jQuery is already included. It's even
simpler than what I wrote above. Just put this inside your thank-you-hn.md
file:

    
    
        <script>$(document).ready(function () { $('footer').remove()})</script>
    

I tested that script by inserting it in your blog. Took me about 45 seconds
and will probably take you even less. Certainly less time than it took you to
write this big response, where you agree with me but lament that what I wrote
above is just too much damn work.

Really, even if you won't do it for this blog post, just change the wording to
"Follow me on Twitter". Really do you care about these few percentage points
of followers that only would've followed you had you had that more aggressive
wording in your footer? You put some great content on your blog - I feel you
should do it justice by letting it shine on its own without the personal
marketing tactics at the bottom.

~~~
jacquesm
For the record, when I say a ton of work I mean: figuring out where to make
that change, re-generating the blog (which takes way too long), testing the
whole thing and then deploying the change to the production server.

You don't get to decide how I allocate my time and half an hour or more is
time I currently do not have to spend on something as un-important as this.

> Really? I feel now you're just talking from the rear.

I think we're done discussing this. Thank you for your contribution.

~~~
kami8845
>You don't get to decide how I allocate my time

Please point to the location where I say I'm deciding how you allocate your
time.

>I think we're done discussing this. Thank you for your contribution.

That language was probably more harsh than it needed to be. Still I've been
hacking on my blog for the day and (granted it is much smaller than yours) I
couldn't fathom how changing one line could ever be described as "a huge
amount of work" when it currently looks like this to me:

    
    
        <change line in editor. save the file>
        $ fab deploy
    

That's all it takes. If what can be reduced to the above really takes half an
hour for you then I think it would be a good time investment to try and
speeden that deployment process up.

Sorry for the language above - really I just like your post and am saying how
I find it could be improved.

~~~
jacquesm
> If what can be reduced to the above really takes half an hour for you then I
> think it would be a good time investment to try and speeden that deployment
> process up.

You are _still_ telling me how to allocate my time.

For historical reasons my blog is a mix of badly interacting scripts called
'octopress'. I already spent a day and a bit just getting it to work properly
and to migrate the content from Drupal.

Whenever I so much as touch it something breaks. This can be for random
reasons, a misplaced character here or there does wonders. Drupal sucks (for
different reasons) but at least it worked.

Octopress is nicer in theory but it simply does not scale beyond the trivial,
there is a lot of content in those pages and clearly octopress has a problem
with that. Just correcting a _typo_ takes several minutes (if it works at
all).

So let's make a deal here: you allocate your time and you run your blog and I
won't tell you what to do or change, and I will do the same with mine.

And if and when that rainy Sunday with nothing to do rolls by (I wish...) then
I'll spend the time required to re-write the software underpinning the blog to
improve the turn-around time. Likely that will be several Sundays.

Until then I thank the guys that wrote Octopress for doing the job they did.
Figuring how to make the template to change for just one file is beyond my
current level of knowledge and I do not have the time right now to improve on
that. It most definitely is not as easy as you make it out to be, this is a
_generated_ blog, not one built up from separate pages of pre-rendered
content. So any change I make to the end product is automatically reverted on
the next generation. The pages themselves are flat text (markdown), and do not
have the ability to output javascript.

------
aw3c2
You forgot to properly markup the link to HN, it is just text at the moment.

------
stretchwithme
Bravo.

Sunlight is the best disinfectant.

------
ForFreedom
So what was the case?

~~~
jacquesm
Sorry, I'm not in a position to disclose that.

As the article already relates, it is not my story to tell anyway and the
person it is about is still not in a position where they are free from
potential fall-out if their identity were public knowledge.

There is no guarantee that this will ever be the case, but if and when she
decides to go public is up to her, definitely not up to me or anybody else.

~~~
ChuckMcM
Well if she does, I hope it has a happy ending, perhaps the movie rights give
her enough to continue on with her goals. Probably worth keeping notes for
contingencies (great in exposing prosecution misconduct and for recapturing
the 'feel' of the moment later.)

~~~
jacquesm
Yes, we're keeping a pretty good file on all these things. Mostly because we
don't know what will happen next and if we ever have to go public by having
our hand forced (say, if our person of interest suddenly disappears) then we
want to make sure we apply the pressure in the right spots. Obviously, that
would be a means of last resort, after that her identity would be common
knowledge which in turn would create a whole new set of problems. But in that
case we figure that would be the lesser evil.

This has been going on for a long time now and the end is not in sight yet.

As for the movie rights, we've been joking about that, but I personally could
do with a lot less realism in the excitement department and I'm pretty sure so
can our friend from India. Boring is good.

------
SatvikBeri
Awesome. Glad everything is ok!

------
akproxy
Does this case has something to do with your venture "ww.com"? I mean such a
association can attract scrutiny and trouble in this country which is absurd
in itself. Just wanted to know as I was quite curious the last time post came
up.

~~~
jacquesm
No, not in the least. It just so happens that we all met here on HN.

Good question though!

------
spitx
For the rest of us who are still puzzled at why this merits cheering or even
any attention for that matter, this case and the response generated from the
community - almost at will and on demand - illustrates the power of social
proof.

One might even say, ill-congealed social proof.

At any rate, with little more than a website (incidentally hawking domain
names to the tune of $100,000 a pop) and a plea (albeit a sizable karma locker
to go with it), you've just witnessed how a feat of this order, spanning
continents, could be nicely dusted up.

Before I further explore the sheer naivete of the intentions of HNers involved
in this effort, I just want to note that my motives are nothing but pure. I
have very little interest in the actual veracity of what is claimed so far.
Just the array of potential outcomes(good or bad)that can spring in these
scenarios. All other facts kept constant, there is nothing claimed so far that
could obviate even some chances of foul play.

Without revealing a single identifying detail pertaining to the case, this
Jacques Mattheij has convinced you that you should dutifully aid him in -- for
all intents and purposes -- this illusory junket.

He has even name dropped PG in there some where although PG hasn't chimed in
yet. [ I'm assuming that none of you have checked with PG to corroborate
what's been claimed here with the exception of those chosen few who claim to
be in the know including this 'btilly' and 'swombat' fellows. ]

Here:

    
    
      We all at HN, have no idea what the case is.
    
      No, you are wrong in that. There are a few HN'ers that 
      know the real identity and some of the details behind this
      (pg for one). And I'm pretty sure they'd agree that
      keeping her identity a secret is of paramount importance
      with respect to her safety.
    

How PG would vouch for a person without coming into direct familiarity with
the facts himself, is an entirely different batch of cans we needn't open
here.

The only consolation here is that this person (or others involved in this
case) haven't sought any coin, just some yellow-page help. This might only be
a consolation if you value your coin more than having your trust violated.

From the looks of it, nothing more will come of this.

We live in an age of elaborate human-powered ornithopter hoaxes [0], hipster
grifters[1] and name-dropping hucksters[2] all plying their trades and
advancing their conquests, largely online.

The old adage is increasingly relevant: "Look Around the Poker Table; If You
Can’t See the Sucker, You’re It."

Be keen, not just singly but in herds as well.

At least don't be derisive of those who want to use their dose of
circumspection. HN has been increasingly getting a lot less accommodating of
the anti-herd view, even when that view is rationally argued.

[0] [http://gizmodo.com/5894904/man-flies-like-a-bird-flapping-
hi...](http://gizmodo.com/5894904/man-flies-like-a-bird-flapping-his-own-
wings)

[1] [http://gawker.com/5212970/meet-kari-ferrell-criminally-
hipst...](http://gawker.com/5212970/meet-kari-ferrell-criminally-hipster)

[2] [http://betabeat.com/2012/08/shirley-hornstein-shirls-
credit-...](http://betabeat.com/2012/08/shirley-hornstein-shirls-credit-card-
fraud-records/)

~~~
irahul
Oh the vitriol.

I would have happily helped(except I didn't know any criminal lawyers in
Delhi). All it would have cost me was a couple of phone calls. What exactly
would I have lost if it were an elaborate con, and what does the conman get?

I have been let down in past by people I have trusted/helped, and it did make
me irrationally bitter for some time. But ultimately, I got duped in the past
doesn't mean I refuse to help anyone ever.

> This might only be a consolation if you value your coin more than having
> your trust violated.

Listen you piece of shit. I value helping someone in need over my ego being
violated when I realize I was duped.

> At least don't be derisive of those who want to use their dose of
> circumspection.

Let me explain it to you again. People cry wolf all the time. That alone is
not reason enough to avoid any and everyone who cries wolf. You aren't the
first person to have figured it out. As I said before, worst case scenario for
someone helping if the story were made-up would have been a few wasted calls.
The worst case scenario for not helping when the story isn't made up is
letting an innocent(yeah, I don't know it. I would rather the court be the
judge) suffer consequences. Making the choice is a no-brainer.

Stop flattering yourself. You haven't unearthed something everyone else
couldn't see. The difference is you are just a bitter asshole pretending to be
smarter than the naive people who jumped to help.

