
New 100W USB 3.0 Spec Can Charge Laptops - pwg
http://www.techweekeurope.co.uk/news/usb-3-0-power-delivery-charging-86983
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pieter
I'd be careful with these; it means you can't plug in an untrusted power
supply anymore.

Just imagine one of these cables also acting as a USB keyboard, which brings
up a new terminal, adds an SSH authorized key and closes the terminal window
without you even seeing it.

~~~
koenigdavidmj
And Thunderbolt is already dangerous, given that it's essentially just
serialised PCI Express (so you've got a free view into RAM).

~~~
X-Istence
There is security against that, you can limit access for thunderbolt devices
to various parts of memory, same as you could with Firewire. Thunderbolt is
not anymore insecure than Firewire for instance.

~~~
sweis
There is the ability to protect memory from malicious devices with IOMMU, but
it is often disabled by default. My experience with DMA attacks via Firewire
or Thunderbolt is that they work out of the box.

Inception is a nice tool to play with if you want to try out DMA attacks:
<http://www.breaknenter.org/projects/inception/>

You may also want to check out the Volatility forensics framework:
<http://code.google.com/p/volatility/>

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senthilnayagam
I have done research on this topic, it is a standard, not ratisfied yet, and
no way your old usb cables can take 100watt power(voltage/amperage), also wall
sockets need standards, which is not there yet.

there are other working powered USB implementations available
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Powered_USB>

~~~
lysol
The example you cited doesn't even use the same connector. Furthermore, the
support of Intel and Microsoft is basically a sure-shot that we'll see an
implementation. There's skepticism, and then there's just silliness.

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nicholassmith
This is awesome, being able to charge everything from a single power plug is a
total dream. But it'd mean losing MagSafe and I can't see Apple going down
that route.

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tjoff
Just use an adapter, apple customers seems to love those.

~~~
jonknee
> apple customers seems to love those

Er, Apple designers seem to love those.

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stcredzero
_> Er, Apple designers seem to love those._

Stockholders should too.

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nchlswu
USB is slowly approaching "single cable" solution. By adding power, USB3 and
Thunderbolt are two differentiated solutions moving towards a similar goal.

~~~
keeperofdakeys
While they are both "single cable" solutions, their differences give them
different uses. Currently there are lots of cheap USB gadgets, and you
probably have lots of USB cables floating around your house. Thunderbolt uses
active cables, which means the cables contain hardware to code the signal
specially for that cable. This allows much better guarantees of throughput,
while making cables much more expensive. With this in mind, I think we are
likely to see thunderbolt used in more 'dedicated' scenarios, like removable
harddrives, displays, and printers. Daisy chaining means you don't need many
ports either.

On the other hand, USB cables are cheap, but have less guarantees on
throughput. In fact, since many ports could be on one hub, you can't even use
all ports to there maximum potential. USB is likely to stay in its current
position for the foreseeable future though.

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K2h
It is very interesting to see the group move to a switchable voltage,
expecting to support 5V, 12V and 20V. My first reaction was 'oh no.. going to
fry some 5V electronics with 20V' but if all the negotiation is done right -
and not too easy to spoof it should keep people from building cheap adapters
to go inline, request the wrong voltage and fry things.

The voltages are a nice choice.

5V: backwards compatibility. Everything is 5V.

12V: same as your car - lots of things run on 12V. It is easier to build a
step down converter than a step up. so that gives the hackers some options.

20V: It was genius of them to step up to 20V. as others have pointed out,
charging a laptop (often 17-20VDC required) is perfect. This is also a good
choice for keeping the conductor size small in the cable. We get to 100W
(wow).

now if you really want to be forward thinking, maybe look at the way
electronics have moved from 12V, to 5V, and then to 3.3V. If they want this to
be super portable for future use, maybe put in 3.3V - although I can't think
of what it would be used for right off.

~~~
Scene_Cast2
3.3V and 1.8V are often used as VCC in embedded processors, and they're the
ranges for hard drives & RAM. If you're dealing with those low powered
devices, there's usually a dirt-cheap and tiny DC-DC converter on-board. And
you're not going to see anything high-powered enough to use these voltages, I
don't think.

RE: 12V. Your car's voltage supply has huge margins (ripple, DC offset, etc),
but in general - sure.

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miahi
As the wireless networks are easier to use, technology that was built for data
transfer is now used for power. I would call that cable USC (Universal Serial
Charger). It looks like a standardization of a power adapter, but I don't
think we can call it USB, as the "serial" part will not be really used.
Profiles 4 and 5 would need special power sources, so you cannot just plug
your laptop in a simple desktop (or another laptop) and get 100W of power, so
you'll get a brick adapter with an USB plug instead of a custom plug - like
most cellphones. But I would not expect the brick to use the initial USB
function (data transfer).

This also means that the cheap Chinese USB power bricks will be even more
dangerous.

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mootothemax
It would be unbelievably cool to be able to walk into an office with a laptop,
and only have to roll out a USB cable from the desk in order to charge it. If
there was some way of combining this with an ethernet port, all my prayers
would be answered!

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zokier
That is the basic idea behind docking stations

~~~
mseebach
Yep, and the reason they work so well is that everybody has the exact same
model laptop.

I couldn't care less what the standard is, as long as it's a standard and
everybody uses it. 400-pin docking station connectors are not standard, and
pity the fool who tries to change that.

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lallysingh
20v@5a! Nice! I can't wait to see USB ports instead of the 13.8v ports we
currently have in cars.

Sadly my 170w laptop still would need a separate adapter.

~~~
jessriedel
> instead of the 13.8v ports we currently have in cars.

That's a bit too much precision for that standard. It's only ~13.8 V when your
car is running and the alternator is charging the battery. When the car is
off, it'll be 13 V or slightly less.

~~~
simcop2387
And even when it's running, you have to expect up to at least 16V, some of the
cars and trucks with larger alternators will run a bit higher, I've seen 15V
myself but I've always heard that 16V is what to expect.

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j_baker
I'm curious if USB could be turning into the next electrical socket. Imagine
if everything you plugged into a wall outlet used USB. Not only would it
probably be safer, but it would probably mean the end of country-specific
electrical adapters. Outlets like this are already becoming popular:
[http://www.amazon.com/Newer-Technology-Power2U-Outlet-
Chargi...](http://www.amazon.com/Newer-Technology-Power2U-Outlet-
Charging/dp/B0065I114K)

~~~
ars
Probably not. The 5v ones can't deliver enough power to do much, and if you
have 20v you might as well have 120v - you anyway need to convert the voltage
to whatever you use internally, and with 120v the wires are 1/5 the size
(thickness).

~~~
Dylan16807
I find that argument suspect when I look at all the laptops that run on 19
volts. Internal adapters are a lot messier for 120v. Most computing things
love the 12 volt range, my screen uses 19 volts, a fancy light bulb is either
LED and low voltage or CFL and gets no benefit from 120.

Higher voltage is better for distribution and for very high power loads
(including heaters). But a lot of things like low voltage.

~~~
ars
> Internal adapters are a lot messier for 120v.

Why do you say that? Look at any USB charging plug - very simple inside. You
only need "messy" electronics for high power or high (above 80%) efficiency.

Basically you would need 20v -> 5v vs 120v -> 5v - there isn't really a lot of
difference. (There is some, but not enough to make changing everything
worthwhile.)

Also, the double conversion isn't great (you would need a power supply in each
plug), assuming typical 80% power supplies you would end up with end to end
64% efficiency.

~~~
Dylan16807
Having a centralized efficient 20v transformer could actually lead to better
efficiency overall. A low voltage DC-DC converter can be far above 80%
efficiency without any fancy components.

And when I called 120v adapters messy I meant for the kind of thing I see that
runs off 20v. Relatively high-powered computers and game consoles and
monitors.

~~~
ars
A centralized transformer wouldn't work well. First you would have to run a
lot of very fat wires in order to serve all the outlets.

But worse, power supplies have an optimum efficiency, usually at around the
75% usage point. If you have a power supply large enough to power everything,
it's not efficient enough to power just a few things.

> And when I called 120v adapters messy I meant for the kind of thing I see
> that runs off 20v. Relatively high-powered computers and game consoles and
> monitors.

And I still don't see what's messy about it. Those things would anyway need a
power supply to convert the 20v to whatever they use. You could just as easily
put in a 120v power supply (and use thinner wires).

~~~
Dylan16807
Those things tend to have bulky external power supplies that transform 120
volts into 20. 'whatever they use' is _already_ 20 volts, with minimal
internal components to get any other levels. You'd be able to eliminate a lot
of awkward transformers.

It's probably not worth wiring a whole house with fat wires but in theory
having nice safe universal plugs without dealing with external transformers
would be nice.

I'm sure if someone wanted to design a supply that's efficient at different
currents they could. Worst case would be 2-3 different supplies glued together
with a management chip.

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dattaway
Expect a new class of cheap USB gadgets in the future. USB powered microwave
oven. There's a lot of toasty cheese melting power in 20 volts and 5 amps.
There's going to be some patents filed...

~~~
sp332
Way ahead of you <https://www.thinkgeek.com/stuff/41/fundue.shtml> :) (try the
buy now button)

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Scene_Cast2
The duplex power is interesting. Let's say you've got a fully-charged phone
(or similar). Would you be able to use it as a battery instead of charging it?

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bryanlarsen
picture of the new cable:

[http://m.hexus.net/tech/news/peripherals/42705-new-usb-
stand...](http://m.hexus.net/tech/news/peripherals/42705-new-usb-standard-
will-deliver-100w-power/)

~~~
joenathan
That is a picture of a standard USB 3.0 A to B cable. Ex.
[http://www.amazon.com/Micro-Connectors-Superspeed-Cable-
Feet...](http://www.amazon.com/Micro-Connectors-Superspeed-Cable-
Feet/dp/B002UHJ1II)

~~~
ars
No it's not. Look at the plastic "tongue" in the middle of it - it was pierced
and they put the power connectors inside it.

~~~
joenathan
Um, yes it is. How about the fact that that particular image is at least 3
years old?

here is an article from nov 2009 [http://www.tuexperto.com/2009/11/05/intel-
no-desarrollara-el...](http://www.tuexperto.com/2009/11/05/intel-no-
desarrollara-el-estandar-usb-3-0-hasta-2011/)

and many more
[http://www.tineye.com/search/d582fc65885700337f2c3ade01878bc...](http://www.tineye.com/search/d582fc65885700337f2c3ade01878bcb23db5241/)

~~~
ars
Seems you're right.

But that makes me wonder where they are adding the pins, there doesn't seem to
be room (unless it's inside the connector, with two rows of pins).

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IsTom
Is the USB 3.0 still held by Intel?

