
India tiger census shows rapid population growth - hhs
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-49148174
======
iamsb
When I was growing up, there were far more tigers, even in Nashik district[1].
One of my most vivid memories from growing up is when we were driving to a
near by place called Bhandardara. My father was in charge of constructing a
tunnel to store water for a hydroelectric power plant and we took this trip
many times. We were driving early morning and at around 6.30am, our driver
stopped as he could see a tiger cub lying on the street. Our guess was a
vehicle had hit it and it needed help. But we could not risk getting out of
the car in case the mother shows up. This is before mobile telephones (circa
1994). All we could do was to turn back and reach nearest police station and
call forest department for help. Sadly the cub never made it, it was run over
and died long before we came across it. Often it is said that we dont always
see change in environment as it happens slowly over generation, but drop in
tiger population happened very fast. Even though there are no tigers left in
my district, I am very glad the population is rising elsewhere in India.

[1] -
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nashik_district](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nashik_district)

------
gramakri
A bit unrelated but this reminded me of my hike to mullayanagiri about 15
years ago. We were a group of 12 and our guide was leading the way and was a
good 0.5km ahead of us. All of a sudden the guide was running back towards us
like no tomorrow. We asked him what happened and he said he saw a tiger cub.
We got so excited and wanted to see it. He said this is no joking matter and
that if a cub is all alone, the mother is somewhere nearby and will rip us all
apart in no time even if we are no threat. The tone in which he said it still
makes me shiver and we ran for our lives :)

------
ignoramous
Astonishing. Still a long way to go, though.

> Mr Modi said the results of this tiger census would make "every Indian
> happy".

This isn't an exaggeration: Tigers are interwoven in to the Indian (and
Bangladeshi?) psyche [0] owing mostly to the overwhelming guilt of almost
singlehandedly causing extinction of these beasts. As the article states, in
the 20th Century over 80,000 Tigers were killed in undivided India-- They were
mostly demonised in tales of yesteryears [1] and terrorised the populace due
to their aggressive behaviour and man-eating tendencies.

There's 2,900 of them now, but a long way away from 80,000. May they burn
bright forever [2].

[0]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Machali_(tigress)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Machali_\(tigress\))

[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shere_Khan](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shere_Khan)

[2]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Tyger#Poem](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Tyger#Poem)

~~~
sn41
There is a slight insinuation in your comment that it was ignorant villagers
who killed off large number of tigers due to population pressures.
Superstition and a reaction against man-eating tigers were not the cause of
the near extinction. They were intentionally hunted down by the British and
the local Maharajas for "sport". Tigers were hunted mostly during the British
era.

[https://blog.nationalgeographic.org/2014/03/10/a-concise-
his...](https://blog.nationalgeographic.org/2014/03/10/a-concise-history-of-
tiger-hunting-in-india/)

~~~
ignoramous
> insinuation in your comment that it was ignorant villagers who killed

I'm sorry but I don't see which sentence makes you think that: esp the
_ignorant_ villagers part.

> hunted down by the British and the local Maharajas for "sport"

The article too points this out. And at the Raj Mahals (Palaces of the Kings)
of the Mysore State there was indeed a display of photographs, pictures of
Tiger kills by not just the Rajas but also by visiting dignitaries.

Additionally, it wasn't uncommon to have Tigers killed, back then, due to
danger to human lives. And the Tiger hunters were celebrated heroes.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Corbett#Hunting_man-
eating...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Corbett#Hunting_man-
eating_tigers_and_leopards)

~~~
kranner
> Additionally, it wasn't uncommon to have Tigers killed, back then, due to
> danger to human lives. And the Tiger hunters were celebrated heroes.

But then why do you say in your previous comment that there is an overwhelming
sense of guilt in the public psyche? There is no such guilt; people are
largely indifferent.

~~~
ignoramous
> But then why do you say in your previous comment that there is an
> overwhelming sense of guilt in the public psyche?

The amount of media coverage on Bengal Tigers, the outrage at decline in
numbers in 1990s (?), the despair today when a Tiger dies in vain or is locked
up [0], plus a handful of Indians commenting on their rendezvous with the
beast and other related stories in this very thread speak for themselves,
don't they?

All major Indian newspapers carried this bit on the front pages. And everyone
I've come across has an opinion about it, I don't see the indifference that
you speak of. That said, I realise that I cannot speak for the entirety of the
vast Indian populace... But the signs that the majority care are ominous, to
me.

[0]
[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/T-24_(tiger)](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/T-24_\(tiger\))

~~~
kranner
If you say something weighs on the Indian psyche, it does seem that you are
making a statement that holds true for a large majority of Indian people, not
just a handful of individuals.

Also, why would anyone who was not directly or indirectly involved in hunting
tigers feel _guilty_ , of all things? Sad, certainly, but guilty is a stretch.

~~~
ignoramous
I've shared multiple links, pointed out various facts, and even called your
attention to the comments in this very thread for you to guage what I mean.

If you choose to ignore that and nitpick on pedantic meaning of words, then so
be it. I'm going to stop taking the bait, sorry.

> why would anyone who was not directly or indirectly involved in hunting
> tigers feel guilty, of all things?

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guilt_(emotion)#Collective_gui...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guilt_\(emotion\)#Collective_guilt)

~~~
kranner
Nitpicking? No, you made the following statement. I’m saying it is entirely
false.

> This isn't an exaggeration: Tigers are interwoven in to the Indian (and
> Bangladeshi?) psyche [0] owing mostly to the overwhelming guilt of almost
> singlehandedly causing extinction of these beasts.

If there is any such thing as a general Indian psyche, it is unburdened with
concerns of tigers dying off. The Indian people are more concerned with mass
unemployment, droughts, floods and poverty. Also, kindly do not suggest that
I’m trolling you in any way. I sincerely believe that you are making an
incorrect representation about how concerned Indians are with tigers.

Your references to a Kipling story and a Blake poem are completely irrelevant.
Newspapers give coverage but where is the mass outrage or outpouring of sorrow
or regret? If there was any you haven’t linked to it.

~~~
ignoramous
> where is the mass outrage or outpouring of sorrow or regret? If there was
> any you haven’t linked to it.

Pls read the Wikipedia entries on Tigers, T-24 and T-16, see the referenced
articles therein.

> general Indian psyche, it is unburdened with concerns of tigers dying off.
> The Indian people are more concerned with mass unemployment, droughts,
> floods and poverty.

Non sequitur.

> Your references to a Kipling story and a Blake poem are completely
> irrelevant.

> Also, kindly do not suggest that I’m trolling you in any way.

?

> I sincerely believe that you are making an incorrect representation about
> how concerned Indians are with tigers.

I've shared links to back my claims. And I hear your opinion loud and clear,
too. Can we pls agree to disagree and put this to rest?

------
0xFFFE
Tigers unlike Lions are solitary animals, so these numbers are impressive +/\-
10%. My home state has one of the largest numbers and I was fortunate to see a
Tigress with fresh kill and couple of cubs. Truly majestic beasts these are.

~~~
joshlegs
> was fortunate to see a Tigress with fresh kill and couple of cubs.

also fortunate you werent the 'fresh kill'!

serious, though, in what kind of context is it possible to see an adult
tigress and not totally crap your pants?

~~~
ceejayoz
The tiger to be afraid of is the one stealthily stalking you because it's
starving and looking for prey it doesn't usually go after.

One with a fresh kill isn't going to be very interested in you unless you come
too close to it or its cubs.

~~~
jimmaswell
I hear one way to tell you're being stalked by a predator is a sudden eerie
silence, where all the birds etc. stop making noises.

~~~
oska
Why would birds go silent when they see a tiger? They're not in danger. The
only possible danger would be to their eggs/chicks in a nest and my experience
there is they make noise when they perceive any possible intruder near their
nests.

~~~
jellicle
Jim Corbett was a Brit in India who had the job of hunting down a number of
man-eating tigers, lived to tell about it, and wrote several books about it
(recommended). He talks extensively about listening to the jungle as a tiger
detection method - the monkeys freak out and call to warn each other about the
predator, birds freak out and then disappear, etc. He paid attention to both
unusual silences and unusual noises. There were still several occasions where
he almost became tiger chow.

------
ra7
Here's the summary report that explains the methodology, data analysis and
results:
[http://www.indiaenvironmentportal.org.in/files/file/Tiger%20...](http://www.indiaenvironmentportal.org.in/files/file/Tiger%20Status%20Report_summary.pdf)

~~~
kaushikt
Thanks for this. Astonishing report.

------
sandGorgon
the really interesting story is around how the law enforcement works here .
Indian Tigers (especially the Royal Bengal Tigers) are some of the world's
largest predators and are prized in Chinese medicine. Its brilliant how
poachers have been kept off.

For those interested, there is a brilliant web documentary series called
"Ranger, Ranger" about India's forest rangers who work in the sanctuaries -
[http://mukha.co/ranger-ranger/](http://mukha.co/ranger-ranger/)

here's the one with the Tigers - [http://mukha.co/ranger-
ranger/project/resurrecting-paper-tig...](http://mukha.co/ranger-
ranger/project/resurrecting-paper-tigers-sariska)

~~~
0xFFFE
Good find. I was looking for this article on STR (Sariska). It's indeed
unfortunate what had happened in Sariska, but I am glad corrective measures
were taken.

------
bozoUser
This is such a welcome news and a great start to the week!

But with the recent news about a tigress beaten to death in India and after
coming across some videos in the social media on the tiger encounters with
humans, I hope the Indian govt. also works on bolstering education and
awareness campaigns across the rural population on the man vs animal
encounters and also works towards preserving the forests where these
encounters are reported.

~~~
sidibe
I don't know if any amount of "awareness" is going to stop the people who live
near them from revenge killings of man-eaters. Hard to blame them honestly.

Tiger population growth means more people live next to them. And on the
internet we'll argue that it's because there's too many people but they'll
expand into whatever territory they're ceded and someone is always going to
have to live near them.

~~~
alexhutcheson
Craig Packer (former director of the Serengeti Lion Project) has been a big
advocate of fencing in the national parks in Africa to prevent this sort of
human-wildlife conflict.

Here's his original paper: [https://sci-
hub.se/https://doi.org/10.1111/ele.12091](https://sci-
hub.se/https://doi.org/10.1111/ele.12091)

And here is an interview with a more high-level explanation:
[https://www.minnpost.com/earth-journal/2013/04/minnesota-
res...](https://www.minnpost.com/earth-journal/2013/04/minnesota-researcher-
says-saving-lions-requires-we-fence-them/)

It's very controversial, but similar principles would apply in India to
minimize human-tiger conflict. At least some of the tiger reserves are already
fenced in, but I don't believe all of them are.

------
distant_hat
While this news is good, it should be taken into consideration that without
increases in habitat area, this will lead to higher tiger-human and tiger-
tiger conflict. There is rising cases of tiger-human conflicts already and I
hope this doesn't lead to a backlash.

~~~
provolone
Notice how these wildlife advocates don't have lobbying offices in these
areas. Their property is safe.

Elephants are not destroying their crops/orchards. Rhinos are not smashing
their cars. Leopards are not eating their pets, livestock, neighbors or family
members.

[https://www.beefmagazine.com/pasture-range/wolves-
economic-b...](https://www.beefmagazine.com/pasture-range/wolves-economic-
bite-cattle-goes-way-beyond-predation)
[https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/india/110923...](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/india/11092399/Man-
eating-leopard-targeting-drunks-in-Indian-Himalayas.html)
[https://www.cnn.com/2012/11/03/world/asia/nepal-leopard-
deat...](https://www.cnn.com/2012/11/03/world/asia/nepal-leopard-
deaths/index.html) [https://thehimalayantimes.com/nepal/one-dead-in-rhino-
attack...](https://thehimalayantimes.com/nepal/one-dead-in-rhino-attack-in-
chitwan/) [https://www.earthtouchnews.com/conservation/human-
impact/rhi...](https://www.earthtouchnews.com/conservation/human-
impact/rhinos-rampage-through-nepal-town-caught-on-camera/)

------
barking
This is a great achievement for such a densely populated countries. I'd
thought Tigers in the wild were on a terminal decline.

------
pbhjpbhj
>But there has also been an increase in human-tiger conflict recently and one
reason is that India has too many tigers and too few forests that can sustain
them unless more protected reserves are added. //

So they've stopped people killing them, but haven't unfortunately, it seems,
been able to address the issue that leads to people killing them.

Presumably at some point the forest area needs to increase, or people will
start killing tigers to protect themselves?

I wonder too how much of the increase is improved technique in finding (and
recording?)?

~~~
rebuilder
If conditions are good, the tigers will presumably increase in number to fill
any additional forest area available to them, as well. So I expect the best-
case scenario is to provide enough reserved land for the tiger population to
be at a safe size, and maintain that population by culling if needed.

~~~
pbhjpbhj
They'd only adopt all forest if food was limitless, they're going to reduce
their growth below replacement by over-predation before they inhabit the
entire World. It's possible that forest increase would see a commensurate
increase in prey, but it's not a given, I imagine.

You sound spot on with the culling, population management is a complex problem
given the tendency towards chaos for such systems.

------
igravious
Amazing animals, great news! See also the recent (Jul 20, 2019) “Siberian
tigers start summer training in Heilongjiang, China” short video,
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZIilv8vyDYI](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZIilv8vyDYI)
– says that from eight tigers in the captive breeding program from 1986 there
are now more than a thousand.

------
nickserv
The article mentions tigers running out of room and coming more and more into
human contact, in fact there was a story not long ago about a bunch of
villagers killing a tiger.

Are there any plans to increase the size of the reserves, or creating new ones
for the increasing tiger population?

Also, is it possible for tigers to mix sufficiently from one reserve to
another, to avoid a lack of genetic diversity?

------
lota-putty

        Modi said the tiger population had risen from 2,226 in "2014" to 2,967 in "2018".
    

Highlighting their(NDA/BJP) Govt at centre has positive effect on Tiger
conservation.

    
    
        big cats breed and live in only about 10% of India's total potential tiger habitat of 300,000 sq.km
    

Even if we cut back a tiger's territory size from 450sq.km to 100sq.km, 3,000
Tigers at this time covers all the potential tiger reserves.

Now should we poke into actual healthy tiger reserves?
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiger_reserves_of_India#Goals](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiger_reserves_of_India#Goals)
[https://www.letsstudytogether.co/complete-list-of-tiger-
rese...](https://www.letsstudytogether.co/complete-list-of-tiger-reserves-in-
india-pdf-download-free-pdf/)

India added a billion people since 1950 to its population. Should it be called
a successes of erstwhile Govts?

Healthy sustainable growth without putting any life in ecosystem under threat
is desired. India can sustain a healthy happy human population of 330 million
without degrading natural wealth of the nation.

------
latchkey
... and in Vietnam...

[https://www.nst.com.my/world/2019/07/507559/seven-dead-
tiger...](https://www.nst.com.my/world/2019/07/507559/seven-dead-tigers-found-
car-vietnam)

------
rblion
I hope to see a tiger in the wild when I go to India. Looking into how to make
this possible.

~~~
0xFFFE
Please do.

If you are visiting Bangalore, the Karnataka state(of which Bangalore is the
capital) has second largest number of tigers in the country, and there are
multiple tiger reserves within 100-150 Mile radius of the city. I highly
recommend visiting at least one of them, the forest staff are quite friendly
and you can get first hand information on how they deal with poachers etc.

This is the Govt. website so please be gentle :)

[https://aranya.gov.in/Static%20pages/TigerReserves.aspx](https://aranya.gov.in/Static%20pages/TigerReserves.aspx)

Bandipur, Nagarhole & BRT reserves are 3-4 hours drive from Bangalore.

PS: Avoid the weekends if possible.

------
gapo
This is a great achievement.

------
srikbs8095
Forgive me for being the party-pooper here.

I might be going off on a tangent, but this govt has a history of cooking up
numbers. Be it GDP, be it out-of-deficit spending or be it the output of the
informal economy. Something that's coming from PMO, I'd be super skeptical.
Pardon me for pointing out their carelessness in handling water crisis and
climate change, but sure, they focussed on tiger population growth. Definitely
believable.

~~~
techie128
Do you think Tiger population growth happens overnight? I think successive
governments have invested in making sure Tiger population growth is healthy.
Read this: [https://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/images/144540/china-and-
in...](https://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/images/144540/china-and-india-lead-
the-way-in-greening)

Do you think India and China are somehow cooking up green cover to fool NASA's
satellites too? Give me a break.

~~~
srikbs8095
My friend, if you've been in touch with how this govt presents numbers, you'd
be on my side. I acknowledge that in this case there is no hard evidence on
either side, except for the statement by PMO. Good luck getting anything out
of an RTI (if it still exists).

The article you shared, I completely agree with it. There are a number of
other factors that go into tiger population growth. Greenery is just one part
of it.

I never said the number of tigers *decreased". They might have actually
increased, but I was only pointing out the potential misrepresentation by this
govt which has been seen with numbers time and again.

~~~
rohit2412
The numbers have doubled since 2006. The surveys in 2010 and 2014 showed
similar increases.

I am no modi bhakt or bjp supporter, but it is appalling that people will just
oppose and disbelieve anything the current government does. I can claim very
confidently that you would have no problem if Manmohan Singh announced this
news.

~~~
srikbs8095
I could say the exact same thing about Congress's GDP numbers. It should good
progress over the years, until NDA came in and downgraded them. I would be
critical no matter which govt it is. The underlying problem I have is with the
inefficiencies of the informal counting/measuring process. If the ruling govt
pokes its nose in a "supposed to be" independent authority carrying out the
process, then of course I would be skeptical. Especially after it has been
exposed multiple times.

"it is appalling that people will just oppose and disbelieve anything the
current government does"

Frankly, I'm not the one running troll farms and calling everyone anti-
national. Nor am I the one killing my accuser.

"I can claim very confidently that you would have no problem if Manmohan Singh
announced this news."

I would believe the news by anyone who has integrity.

~~~
mynameisvlad
"Frankly, I'm not the one running troll farms and calling everyone anti-
national. Nor am I the one killing my accuser."

Neither is _every single person_ who is rooting for the other side in this, or
any debate, including, likely, the person you replied to. While pretending
that everyone on the other side is running troll farms, it's a strawman that
isn't actually helpful for debate.

Do you have any _specific_ reasons why this _specific_ tiger census is untrue?

------
edgefield0
Stories about climate change are flagged off the front page because they are
supposedly irrelevant but somehow this story remains. What gives? How is the
tiger population more relevant than climate change, an existential threat to
humanity and all living species?

~~~
tomhoward
Plenty of stories about climate change still get attention on the front page.
There's usually at least one every day. But they're the ones that contain new
information.

Stories get flagged off the front page when they're repetitive, and stories
get front page traction when they contain interesting/useful new information.

The recovering tiger population is interesting new information.

------
flattone
tiger meat!

~~~
dang
Could you please stop posting unsubstantive comments to Hacker News? We're
trying for something a bit different here:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html](https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html).

You might also find these links helpful for getting the spirit of the site:

[https://news.ycombinator.com/newswelcome.html](https://news.ycombinator.com/newswelcome.html)

[https://news.ycombinator.com/hackernews.html](https://news.ycombinator.com/hackernews.html)

[http://www.paulgraham.com/trolls.html](http://www.paulgraham.com/trolls.html)

[http://www.paulgraham.com/hackernews.html](http://www.paulgraham.com/hackernews.html)

~~~
flattone
ill just stop using hn

sorry.

~~~
dang
We'd prefer you to stay! It's just a matter of not lowering the signal/noise
ratio.

~~~
flattone
ive read the content you shared. it's in line with my heart and mind. ...sorry
and cheers and thank you.

~~~
dang
Glad to hear it!

------
xwdv
Tigers are twice as heavy as lions but still the same size. With a single
swipe of a claw, a tiger was able to slit a lion’s throat, killing it
instantly.

~~~
TremendousJudge
>Tigers are twice as heavy as lions

how? less fat?

~~~
b_tterc_p
Muscle density I would imagine. Neither lions nor tigers are likely to have a
lot of extra fat.

~~~
sachdevap
Muscle density does not really change from one animal to another, so more
likely just the amount of muscle if the premise is true.

And I am not sure that it is obvious that they have the same level of fat.

~~~
b_tterc_p
If there is more muscle on a creature of approximately the same volume, then
the density of muscle has increased?

~~~
sachdevap
But how do you know that there is more muscle? You only know that there is
more mass based on the premise.

My point is that muscle cells across animals don't have significantly
differing density. However, different individuals (of any species) may have
different levels of glycogen and fat embedded in the muscle, which may
contribute to your point of "muscle density". It is just a loser terminology
of muscle density as such. Even then, I doubt that muscles mass for the same
volume of muscle could change that much across individuals.

All in all, I am just arguing for more specificity in your hypothesis, because
I think in its current form, it isn't adding much clear detail.

~~~
b_tterc_p
I’m not sure where the confusion lies

[https://www.quora.com/Are-male-African-lions-more-
muscular-a...](https://www.quora.com/Are-male-African-lions-more-muscular-and-
have-robust-built-than-the-tiger-From-the-picture-one-can-see-the-lion-s-
muscle-more-easily-compared-to-the-tiger-s)

This suggests tigers have 72% muscle mass vs 50% hence more density?

------
DeonPenny
kind of happy but also now scared to go to india. I saw a video of a guy on a
motorcycle almost get mauled by one.

~~~
adi18g
Yeah..that's why we ride on elephants

~~~
srean
Everyday ? You live in rough country. In Bangalore, we ride on elephants only
for the first day of work. The local tigers here dont care much for engineers
with experience.

------
singularity2001
30% in 5 years = rather 'decent' than 'rapid'

~~~
rajdevar
Tigers usually have 2-3 cubs in a litter. So i guess it is a good number

------
a11r
The bulk of the tiger population is in the Sundarbans (marshlands at the
bottom of the Ganga-Brahmaputra delta). Anecdotally, many of the Sundarban
tigers are man-eaters and there is a tacit policy to not go after the ones
that happen to kill humans. This keeps the poachers and encroachers away, but
also makes any census nearly impossible to conduct. I would not put too much
faith in these reported numbers.

~~~
j0j
This is wrong on many levels. 7-8 states have more tigers than Bengal.
Sundarban tigers are not man-eaters by default Tiger census is tricky
business, but these numbers are as legit as they can get (especially given,
outside of India, BD and Nepal, no other countries have serious population of
tigers in the wild). I mean, what other numbers would you trust?

~~~
j0j
In case you want a reference:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Indian_states_by_wildl...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Indian_states_by_wildlife_population)

