
The less Americans know about Ukraine’s location, the more they want ... - ycaspirant
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/monkey-cage/wp/2014/04/07/the-less-americans-know-about-ukraines-location-the-more-they-want-u-s-to-intervene/
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FatalLogic
This seems to be a textbook example of the Dunning-Kruger effect: the people
who know least are the most willing to take action, because their ignorance
blinds them to the impracticality and potential consequences of that action.

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect)

~~~
sentenza
Is there a name for when you get progressively more depressed about an issue
the more you learn about it?

The Ukraine conflict might very well also qualify for that.

~~~
badman_ting
The Dunning-Kruger Effect Effect.

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bad_alloc
How did they ask people to locate Ukraine? Some of these points look like
somebody accidentally clicked on a random spot of a map. For example, the dot
below New Zealand is in the middle of the ocean (approx.
-55.000000,176.000000). Some even located it within the US (Florida seems to
be a popular guess). Have they found really misinformed people or is this
noise in the data?

~~~
Nacraile
I would bet that the noise comes from people who have no idea just closing
their eyes and clicking at random.

Clearly the map wasn't coloured to differentiate bodies of water, considering
the clusters in the Black and Caspian seas. (But you'd think people could at
least identify the major oceans...)

~~~
AJ007
This would correlate with 'I have no idea what I'm doing'

"In general, younger Americans tended to provide more accurate responses than
their older counterparts: 27 percent of 18-24 year olds correctly identified
Ukraine, compared with 14 percent of 65+ year-olds."

65+ year olds spent a big chunk of their lives in the cold war. Presumably
they would know more about the geographical breakup of the Soviet Union than
18-24 year olds who didn't even exist when the Berlin Wall fell.

From a data analysis standpoint, I would say discard the outliers that look
like mis-clicks. Based on the groupings you still have people that identified
Alaska, Greenland, Canada, India South America, and so on. Irregardless of the
colorings or map size, those should not have been chosen.

On another note, a given countries foreign policy always makes a hell of a lot
more sense when placed in context on a map. I'm glad I read a lot of National
Geographic as a child.

~~~
rcthompson
No, people who were in primary school before the breakup of the Soviet Union
would probably have never seen the Ukraine on a map, since all they would see
is a big red area labeled "Soviet Union". I doubt Soviet internal geography &
politics were taught regularly. Younger people may not even know that the
Soviet Union ever existed, but they have a much better chance of seeing
Ukraine on a map in school.

~~~
dragonwriter
> No, people who were in primary school before the breakup of the Soviet Union
> would probably have never seen the Ukraine on a map, since all they would
> see is a big red area labeled "Soviet Union".

Many of the maps I remember seeing (in school and otherwise) as a kid in the
1980s labelled the constituent republics of the USSR.

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nulagrithom
I see lots of numbers in there, but none relating to a desire for military
action, save for the fact they're "95% confident" that people who don't know
where Ukraine is are more likely to support military action. _How much_ more
likely are they?

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nswanberg
The map would have been more interesting if the color represented preference
for intervention.

~~~
antsar
This. Color is an entire dimension they had available, and they used it to
reiterate what we can already see (distance from actual Ukraine) instead of
the actual point they are trying to make (clueless about location => wants to
intervene)

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benjvi
This makes sense, no? With less knowledge about the Ukraine and hence less
information about the ties and affinity parts of its population have to
Russia, the more aggressive Russia seems. Without that knowledge, you just
have to take the prior assumption that Ukraine is just like any other country,
no specific link to Russia - and given that, the breach of sovereignty seems
more egregious than it is in this specific situation.

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moskie
I don't dispute the conclusion of this study, but this might be a great
example of when the choice of map projection used has a significant
consequences.

For example, would Greenland have been chosen so many times if a projection
were used that didn't make it look so huge?

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insuffi
Many replies here try to dispute the methodology and UX in the survey. When it
comes to geography, you either know it, or you don't.

The distance from Ukraine for many data points is so big, that you can't
possibly write it down to projection/UX.

~~~
nogridbag
The UX certainly doesn't help! I've been to Russia and Ukraine several times.
I can easily point out Ukraine on a normal map but I must admit that single
colored map is a bit confusing.

~~~
ngokevin
Normal maps tell you where Ukraine is :)

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pekk
Russia knows more about Ukraine's geography, so they should occupy it.

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lgleason
Reminds me of this video. As an American it makes me sad.

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a0TK_vk-
XDM](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a0TK_vk-XDM)

~~~
azinman2
That was cringe worthy.

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EugeneOZ
I suppose it will be big surprise to many people (even some russians) to know,
that first capital of ancient Russia was Kiev, current capital of Ukraine ;)

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qwerta
So what? Most people in Europe do not know where Washington state is.

Anyway US already intervened in Ukraine several times. I just hope this will
not become another Iraq.

~~~
mikeash
Do they have strong opinions about European intervention in Washington state?

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saraid216
Does anyone spy a link to the data? Some of the numbers make me think they're
over-emphasizing the conclusion.

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delucain
More people need to play Risk apparently.

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pistle
Where's the map where they baseline people identifying something in the US (or
other map points with higher likely familiarity) correctly as well? That would
help clear out some noise.

Secondly. Who cares at this point? Seems like Putin keeps Crimea on the basis
of some familiar reasoning that bodes poorly for outcomes here. There is no
appetite or willing money for military intervention at scale.

------
jnbiche
Most interesting tidbit for me: "self-identified independents (29 percent
correct) outperformed both Democrats (14 percent correct) and Republicans (15
percent correct)"

Edit: Removed inflammatory language about Democrats and Republicans and will
let the numbers speak for themselves.

------
sebastialonso
Although I find it interesting, what's the point of the article other than
"look how most Americans are ignorant about world geography"?

And what do I gain from it?

~~~
Nacraile
What I always find interesting about "look at how ignorant Americans are" type
articles is that they never bother to compare against any other nationality
and see if the ignorance is in any way abnormal in a broader context.

Is a "look at how ignorant non-Europeans are about world geography?" going to
have a different result? (And I would be quite curious to know how many, say,
British or Spaniards can accurately place Ukraine on a map. I have a sneaking
suspicion that the number is surprisingly low).

This coming from a non-American, by the way.

~~~
insuffi
Coming from a non-American as well:

Assuming ignorance would fall in the same spectrum compared to other
nationalities, you don't hear other nationalities confidently stating their
opinions about things they know nothing about.

To be fair, I don't have data to back that up, but I can tell you from my
personal observations that people usually refrain from commenting or are
reasonably educated about the topic.

Why this is important in this case is because it's largely a matter of geo-
politics, and if you don't even know where the damn country is, you should not
seriously suggest a certain course of action.

~~~
ganeumann
To be fair, these people were asked for their opinion--it was an opinion
survey; it's not like they're walking around volunteering it. Saying they
shouldn't say anything when asked is a bit odd.

99.9% of the Americans I talk to every day are refraining from commenting
about whether the US should intervene in the Ukraine. But, then, I'm not
asking.

~~~
insuffi
I didn't think about the "pressure" of the survey, I must admit. Fair point.

However, does the fact that if you don't know where the country in question is
located, and out of war|no war, you choose war, not strike you as somewhat
weird?

I'd like to think most people would always choose no war over war ESPECIALLY
if they're uneducated about the situation.

~~~
ganeumann
I think when you're 6'6" and 250 lbs of muscle you may be more inclined to
step in when someone is threatening a defenseless innocent.

Not that that's what's going on here, but I think that's the image that many
Americans have of America's place in the world. It's not especially
enlightened, but I don't think the people are warmongers, they probably
honestly think it's just the right thing to do and that it would have very
little in the way of consequences for anyone. It's the latter part that
probably correlates with not knowing much about the world outside America's
borders.

