
Linux computer shop closing - lucb1e
https://plus.google.com/100221912051999668442/posts/4aceUXuWYaX
======
lucb1e
Last time I submitted a Google+ link I received some feedback from people who
couldn't read it. For those, here is a copy:

\---

<http://www.hettes.nl/hettes-stopt> [Dutch]

This is sad. Translation:

 __Hettes is closing __

 _We have to announce that we, the team of Hettes, can no longer deliver
laptops with Ubuntu Linux or another Linux distribution. This is not because
we want to or because of time or resources, but it's because we can't buy
computers (anymore) without operating system._

 _We started our webshop a few years ago with a lot of ambition and fun,
continued developing it, and helped lots of customers with satisfaction. Since
the beginning of our passion and ambition for the webshop with laptops and
desktops with pre-installed Ubuntu Linux we've had problems with buying
systems without operating system, or simply said without Windows._

 _We have tried to continue our work in different ways and we have had small
successes. However with Windows 8 all doors are being closed permanently and
we see no way to open these._

 _The worst of the story is that the community, you, as user of Ubuntu or
another distribution were very happy with the different parties that
deliver/delivered laptops and desktops with Linux and we always received
positive and nice feedback from you._

 _We'd like to continue our activities and serve users and consumers with your
request for laptop and desktops, but we are not given the chance to do this.
Because of this reason we decided to stop our internet activities._

 _This does not apply to existing customers of Hettes, we as team have decided
to continue technical support and warranties for you because, as we said,
we're not closing because we want to, but because we are being held back by
the large computer manufacturers._

------
gambiting
I am sorry,but to me this entire article and comments below it are just a
massive pile of whine.

Large companies like Dell get Windows at such discounted prices that the
difference between a machine with or without OS would be 10-15 dollars. It's
not like having windows installed on a laptop is increasing its cost by $100.
And why does a company mentioned in this article have a problem with Windows
already pre-installed? Installation of Linux on such a machine is exactly the
same as if there was no OS on it in the first place. Heck, they could even
leave Windows and install Linux as a second OS,but make it boot by default -
and then have it as an extra selling point - Linux computers,but with Windows
as an option. Windows 8 is not sealing anything yet. And EFI problems are easy
to overcome if you want to - and if your business depends on it, I believe
that it would be in your best interest to want to?? To sum it all up - I
believe that this entire story is made up and no shop even existed in the
first place. If they could sell linux computers 3 or 5 years ago they could
still do it today, and it seems like the entire article is constructed to just
blame MS for problems that don't exist.

~~~
cron
It's right and proper that microsoft receive a payment for every pc laptop
sold?

~~~
gambiting
Since when do they do that?? It must be new, since as far as I know Microsoft
gets payment for their software. If a manufacturer decides to install Windows
on their laptops, then Microsoft gets paid per licence. If they don't decide
to install Windows,then MS doesn't get a single penny. Unless there is some
new law that I missed that says that all new PCs HAVE to come with Windows, I
think your question is moot.

~~~
GhotiFish
Microsoft actually was coniditioning the market [1]

If any vendor had the gal to offer a computer with no operating system at a
discount, microsoft will pull their "special discount" and Dell or whoever
will be paying full price for their licenses.

Apparently there was fallout for that choice. Fortunately Microsoft isn't
fighting it anymore. Perhaps because working under the table works better than
over it.

I don't want 10 dollars going towards microsoft

I don't want 5 dollars going towards microsoft

I don't want 1 cent going towards microsoft.

But I want a laptop. How unfair of me.

[1] <http://www.justice.gov/atr/cases/f3800/msjudgex.htm#iiie>

~~~
gambiting
Then you can buy a laptop from a manufacturer that does not put windows on
their products - it's like saying: I don't like Michelin and I don't want to
pay a penny towards them, so it's unfair that car manufacturers put these
tires on their cars. Even though the deal is probably exactly the same as with
Windows and laptop manufacturers - car makers probably buy tires of a specific
brand a large discount, so a car with tires and without them would cost
roughly the same. Yet I don't see people complaining that when buying a car
they don't get to choose the brand of the tires,of the wipers or of the
stereo. A car is sold as a complete package. How come that people treat
laptops differently?

~~~
GhotiFish
Lets stick with that tire example. Because god knows we don't have enough
euphemisms about operating systems and cars.

So Michelin has 80% of the tire market, and is releasing esoteric tires backed
by huge marketing campaigns. They raise the price of normal Michelin tires for
everyone, and offer their new esoteric tires to manufacturers at big discounts
as long as they don't sell cars with other tires.

Cha-Ching every manufacturer says, people are clamoring over themselves to get
this new tire. In order to support this new tire they had to build part of the
car to these strange specs anyway, no other tire would fit, so the condition
that they not use another manufacturers tire is an easy one to meet. Bouns: if
they meet it they get a big bulk discount!

Jump ahead 2 years: buy a car. One without a Michelin tire? I'm afraid that's
not possible. Yes of course there are other tires that meet the standard now,
but we all know you're safer on a Michelin tire, and we all know it's easier
to just use the Michelin tire. Why are you making such a fuss? Oh you already
have some tires that fit? Ok well just buy the car with the Michelin tires,
take them off, and return them to the manufacturer for a - oh wait they won't
actually do that. They require you to return the car. Why? I have no idea. I
guess cars are sold as a complete package, so taking off the tires is just
pointless, you don't like the tires? Send the car back.

Manufacturers are starting to get burned though. Michelin has marketed well.
There's a large portion of the population that do not trust tires other than
from Michelin, those discount tires are costing allot more now adays. The
threat of pulling their discount isn't even relevant any more. people just
can't imagine driving on the road without a Michelin tire. Manufacturers try
to sell cars without them but are greeted with poor sales, distrust, and even
negative public reaction.

So you just watched this whole thing happen. Sort of like watching a car
accident. You browse the tire section of Costco. 20$ for a set of Goodrich
tires. 25$ for a set of Firestone. 235$ for a replacement set of Michelin
tires. Oh and by the way no mechanic will touch your car if you don't buy
Michelin.

I got to say, if I was standing there, the last thing I would think is "I
don't see what all the fuss is about."

Personally, I am fussed.

~~~
gambiting
Well yes, I do see your point. It's a vicious circle, one that I think would
be very very hard to break.

------
jroseattle
I'm sympathetic to any small company that finds tough sailing due to
competition. It sucks.

That said, this really isn't surprising. The major hardware manufacturers are
geared to sell Windows computers, not just computers. Make no mistake, the
every-computer-has-Windows-8 structure is a decision by the manufacturers to
gain discounts toward the cost of the OS. They do the same thing with video
cards, hard drives, memory, etc. It's enough so that it makes a huge economic
difference to do so.

In terms of a business problem, this is a supplier issue relative to the cost
of doing business. If the existing set of suppliers have a cost factor that
doesn't work in your model, you find another supplier. And if _no_ suppliers
meet that criteria, then the market is making decisions for you.

From the sounds of it, the major manufacturers don't find the desktop Linux
market to be worth it for them to service. However, I've ordered a few systems
from ASUS with no OS on it, so I would think there are still suppliers
available that could do business.

------
dragonbonheur
Seriously? If I was doing the same thing I'd be buying from ODMs like Compal,
Quanta or Foxconn, not from Dell, Lenovo or HP.

<http://www.foxconnchannel.com/>
[http://www.compal.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=...](http://www.compal.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=68&Itemid=1446&lang=en)
<http://www.quantatw.com/Quanta/english/product/qci_nb.aspx>

------
windexh8er
I think in 5 years you'll see a resurgence of plain-old-computers. People will
still be in the market for tablets, those that never needed a full blown
desk/laptop to begin with. However, as more people begin to realize that
they're just consumers of these new, handheld "TVs" of the Internet generation
my hope is that the demand for boundary-less computing platforms will realize
a resurgence. It's sad to see the overall industry being reduced to the world
of locked out hardware because of... Software companies. Hypocritical? For
sure. But if protecting the business model of a platform by ousting
competition is the only way to lock in dominance I feel that's a cheap way to
earn your keep. I think some would argue it's just the way things are today. I
don't buy that.

I tried to buy a Lenovo sans Windows and they informed me it was not possible.
Not possible to not write a bloatware image to a hard drive, of which takes
time and energy for Lenovo in the manufacturing process. Really? Don't tell me
as a savvy consumer that it's not possible since that is an aggregious lie.
Instead tell me that it is not something that within your catalog of product
options. At least then it's not a lie.

~~~
mbreese
With the production lines that these manufacturers run, yes it is more
expensive for them to pull a subset of computers and _not_ load their
bloatware windows image. That just isn't a situation they are setup for. You
can argue about whether or not it should be this way, but that is the reality
of the computer manufacturing process. Sure, it's more accurate to say they
won't do it, but in all likelihood, they can't do it and keep their profit
margin.

Now if they were to stay that they were contractually obligated to install
windows on every machine, then they'd have a problem.

~~~
windexh8er
Disagree. If you've ever seen the manufacturing process it would just be a
simple bypass. The installation of the images is done far closer to boxing
than you likely realize. In all reality the bypass of that process could shave
critical time off filling an order, especially when you're talking about made-
to-order combinations.

Now straight line runs are another story, but that's not the context of the
conver

~~~
mbreese
Any change in the process makes it more difficult to manage. More difficult
means more expensive. And maybe they've just decided that they didn't want the
hassle.

------
Nux
Well, clearly they did not look around enough. How come these people can sell
laptops and workstations without OS: <http://pcspecialist.co.uk/> (no
affiliation)

And they're just an example. Europe is full of this kind of small firms.

I wonder what their real reason for quitting is.

~~~
lucb1e
Because hardware can be bought with another OS installed and then reinstalled
with Linux (having checked whether it's fully compatible beforehand, though
that's quite okay nowadays). Most others will probably be doing that, but then
you're supporting the Microsoft empire, which is what Hettes was trying to
avoid.

~~~
CamperBob2
The ethics and economics are frustrating to untangle. Without the Microsoft
juggernaut, it's certainly true that we as users would have more choices. We
could pay Apple $5000 for a Mac, Commodore $5000 for an Amiga, Sun $10000 for
a Unix box, or pay steep prices to any number of other vendors selling
incompatible boxes.

Point being, I'm not sure the economics of buying a Windows box and
overwriting the hard drive are really that bad, compared to what might have
happened in a world without Microsoft's standardization efforts.

~~~
gizmo686
Standardization would have happened without Microsoft. The progression of
almost every new technology is that it becomes more standardized as it become
more mature. Take operating systems as an example. At the beggining, every
computer had its own OS and software written for one computer likely would not
work on others. This was a problem, so eventually we came up with BIOS, which
provided a standard software interface to different hardware.

Later we had a similar divergence in operating systems. Eventually Bell Labs
created UNIX. Excluding windows, the UNIX specification is the standard of
most modern operating systems (OS X, GNU, BSD, Solaris, ETC).

------
hp50g
That's absolute bollocks. Asus still sell OEMs bare bones laptops with no
license as do a fair number of Chinese brands.

~~~
dsr_
System76 is clearly buying laptops from OEMs and outfitting them
appropriately; I imagine ZaReason is doing the same. You get devices of about
the same quality as Dell or Compaq, with all the drivers you need already in
place.

------
Surio
Sigh!

For those interested in the nuts and bolts of the issue with UEFI/dual-boot,
etc....

[http://www.linuxbsdos.com/2012/11/05/dual-boot-
windows-8-and...](http://www.linuxbsdos.com/2012/11/05/dual-boot-
windows-8-and-ubuntu-12-10-on-uefi-hardware/)

------
hettes
There are a lot of comments about the closing of the shop Hettes. I'm one of
guys that were running the shop and I will explain something. ( in bad
English, sorry )

We have search for manufacturers of desktops and laptops to buy without OS and
after 3 years, we stop trying. We have spoken with Lenovo, HP and Fujitsu and
they say it is not possible, they close the door. Other manufacturers didn't
even replay on a e-mail. Okay, we had contact with BTO but the systems they
make will not supported for 100% by Ubuntu, because most items have a double
videocard or some of chip that is a problem.

We believe that Linux systems is much better than Windows for proxily 80% of
all desktop and laptop users, so we start a shop with systems includes a Linux
OS. BUT! The OS must be easy in use for starters with Linux, that is one of
the groundrules by selling hardware.

We want to test, we didn't get the change; We want to buy without Windows,
forget it; Okay, we want to send the Licence back, don't think about that; We
want to work with manufacturers for the best userexperience, dont think about
that either.

So, that's not making sell laptops any easier.

Thank you for all the support.

------
drcube
I had a little trouble finding a non-Windows laptop last time I bought one
(summer 2012), but it wasn't impossible. If these guys are making most of
their money from customization or support, why not resell System 76 laptops?
Otherwise, buy big orders from Clevo or some other manufacturer. I sincerely
hope this shop wasn't buying computers at Best Buy for resale.

~~~
hettes
Hettes has contact System 76, but it was not possible to get a partnership :(

------
brudgers
No supporting evidence makes me skeptical - what were they buying before and
how has it changed?

Beyond that, a retail computer shop closing isn't surprising - computer shops
have been a high risk proposition for...well, forever. But one which limits
itself to Linux, what were they competing on? Mostly price, it looks like.
Otherwise paying for machines with Windows wouldn't be likely to break sales.

And that's the problem with Linux in the mainstream. People expect Linux
computers to be cheaper and that means that for the same margin, revenue is
lower - it's a race to the bottom and it has to compete with HP. Throw in the
much smaller size of the market segment for Linux and it just doesn't make
sense as a business model.

Don't get me wrong. Running a Linux only computer shop is not wrong. It needs
to come about out of love - like a coffee shop, a B and B, or a used book
store.

------
SeanDav
I think that if Michael Dell or Steve Jobs were running that shop we wouldn't
be seeing this message.

------
bmasci
Is this a secure boot / Microsoft key issue?

------
narrator
They can't find someone on Alibaba to ship them pcs without OSs?

~~~
amalag
I am guessing they can't get good quality for generic alibaba manufacturers.

~~~
raverbashing
I really doubt it

Some OEM brands are good. Some name brands sell OEM computers /lines.

Get some brands, models, test them.

------
alexvr
Well that's just messed up. I have no problem with Microsoft's market
dominance; I just think they're a problem since they give the finger to our
freedom of choice.

------
lucb1e
I wonder what the alternative is for companies. For users or companies with a
few computers, Linux is absolutely no problem once you get used to it. For
power users I'd argue it's the only sensible choice. But what if you are
running a 2000-employee company, how can you manage all workstations without a
Windows domain? Does Mac have any alternatives, or are there open-source
alternatives?

~~~
gambiting
Yes you can. There are solutions to move user profiles to a central server and
boot from there. Mac can do the same thing with Mac OSX Server edition.

An entirely different question is, is it sensible? Our university has two
computer clusters accessible by Computer Science students only, one with
Windows and other with Linux - 200 computers each. Guess which one is giving
more problems? And the reason is that Windows server is a much more refined
product. I would say that it's slower,but it makes sure everything is correct,
double checks if there is no corruption, if the connection is authenticated,
if you are not over your quota, and then it does fantastic job of restoring
the machines to ideal state every day and keeping them updated.

Linux does the same thing,but only partially. Profiles get corrupted
frequently,because it just seems to write what comes from the network, and if
it looses connection it takes a while before it realises that it happened. And
after that, it proceeds as if nothing had happened, while Windows has
procedures to repair user's profile. As a result, our admin is constantly
fixing all the weird problems with Linux machines, while our Windows machines
keep running most of the time without a fault.

I am not saying that it's not possible to run Linux domain systems - but they
require(in my experience) a lot more maintenance than Windows systems.

~~~
lucb1e
Okay, thanks for the info. I thought as much actually, that there was a way
for other OSs but that it's not really refined or practical. There should be a
company that writes software so that Linux can do the same... hmm, or doesn't
Red Hat? They're a paid distribution aren't they?

~~~
gambiting
Yeah, Red Hat does have solutions for that. And no, the distribution itself is
free but it doesn't have any of their tools. You pay for them and for the
yearly support.

------
recoiledsnake
[Edit: Original HN title was "Linux computer shop closing because of thwarting
by large companies."]

Narrative about unnamed "large companies" trying to kill Linux? Check.

Story about Microsoft Windows 8 killing off a poor Linux company? Check.

Lack of any details like the names of companies that stopped shipping machines
without OSes? Check.

Lack of explanation about how exactly Windows 8 "closed the doors permanently"
? Check.

This is just plain FUD designed to garner clicks and sympathy by invoking the
bogeyman and it's working very well, just like usual.

As an offtopic aside, even RMS is not immune from resorting to unproven FUD.
For example from <http://www.fsf.org/blogs/rms/ubuntu-spyware-what-to-do>

>This is just like the first surveillance practice I learned about in Windows.
My late friend Fravia told me that when he searched for a string in the files
of his Windows system, it sent a packet to some server, which was detected by
his firewall. Given that first example I paid attention and learned about the
propensity of "reputable" proprietary software to be malware

I haven't been able to find any reputable reference for Windows sending local
search keywords to "some server", maybe someone can point me to one. But the
FUD campaign continues unchallenged and unabated, even in a community that
prides itself to be technically superior to the unwashed masses.

~~~
bcoates
The windows search hitting the internet thing in XP is just a buggy software
update mechanism, it doesn't send a search term. Here's a good explanation:
[http://www.theregister.co.uk/2002/04/11/winxp_search_assista...](http://www.theregister.co.uk/2002/04/11/winxp_search_assistant_silently_downloads/)

~~~
cooldeal
>But when I performed an Internet search, the Assistant sent my search terms
to the Microsoft site, and also dropped a session cookie on my machine.

OMG, an _internet_ search sends keywords over the internet to an internet
server! Stop the presses!

------
cooldeal
>but it's because we can't buy computers (anymore) without operating system.

So were they buying computers from OEMs like Lenovo and Dell, installing Linux
and then selling them? Why not assemble desktops from components? I believe
the ODMs will sell laptops without OSes to distributors if the order is large
enough.

>However with Windows 8 all doors are being closed permanently and we see no
way to open these.

What has this to do with Windows 8 at all?

~~~
justincormack
Windows 8 = UEFI Secure Boot. eg see <https://lwn.net/Articles/503803/> it is
going to be much more difficult to run Linux. Because of the dominance of
Windows it may be harder to get motherboards without this, so there will be
much less choice and you will need more technical knowledge to sell Linux
stuff, eg maybe flash your own firmware.

~~~
cooldeal
All Windows 8 certified machines need the Secure Boot to be able to be turned
off.

I seriously doubt turning off an option in the BIOS/UEFI setup screen is going
to hobble them.

[http://www.top-password.com/blog/wp-
content/uploads/2012/12/...](http://www.top-password.com/blog/wp-
content/uploads/2012/12/toshiba-secure-boot.jpg)

> you will need more technical knowledge to sell Linux stuff,

I would really really hope that a company installing and configuring Linux
would have the technical chops to turn off a bios setting.

~~~
sp332
_All Windows 8 certified machines_

This only applies to x86 platforms. ARM-based "Windows RT" systems are locked
down. I think you're right about this case but I think it's important to
remember that some EFI secure boot systems can't be unlocked.

~~~
bitwize
ARM-based Windows RT systems are also lead balloons in terms of sales.

I think that the market will self-correct here, as no one wants ReTarded
Windows, or a machine that can only run the same.

~~~
tracker1
I really wouldn't mind an RT based ARM system, if it were more price
competitive (to even low-end x86 systems, and high end android), and wasn't
using a locked boot loader. As it stands, no sale.

