
Millions of Men Are Missing from the Job Market - stefap2
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/10/17/opinion/millions-of-men-are-missing-from-the-job-market.html
======
vrtx0
I'm one of these missing men. I'm currently 35, and have been working as a
software engineer since I was 19. Two years ago, I started experiencing
excruciating, unrelenting low back pain that eventually required me to leave
my job and go on long term disability.

I loved my job. I worked at MongoDB in Palo Alto for 3 years, contributing to
the core database (C++) and designed a performance testing platform (among
other things). It was a true pleasure to have worked with some extraordinarily
brilliant people throughout my career. I biked ~5 miles to work from the house
I shared with my partner in Atherton. Life was perfect.

I now live with my parents in Florida, and have symptoms that have progressed
to what could be MS (I'm undergoing a complete work up at the Mayo Clinic in
Jacksonville, FL).

Life sucks. I'm depressed, but who wouldn't be? I also take prescription pain
medicine, which helps me get out of bed and shed some of the 105lbs I've
gained since this started. Being 6'2" and 285lbs is depressing in it's own
right.

That said, I want to stress two things:

1\. Opioids are daemonized by the media, but there is no better option (aside
from suicide). The implied correlation with pain medication in this article
seems to reinforce the stigma I've been facing; that somehow I'm lazy, weak or
an addict. But all I can offer is my word.

Like most people who enjoy software engineering, I gained immense
gratification from solving difficult problems, learning new things, and
completing a piece of software I'm proud of. Opioids don't replace that
feeling (for me anyway). Nothing does. But the lesions on my brain make
writing software effectively impossible.

2\. Debilitating conditions predicate losing a job and starting pain
medication. Maybe some people are just lazy and hate their jobs, but please
don't punish me (and others like me) for it. Even if they're in the majority,
please don't punish me. I suffer enough.

~~~
cableshaft
I went through something similar the past couple of years, and was letting my
back determine job prospects (i.e. I didn't want to take a train downtown and
walk five blocks to work, hell I didn't want to walk to the parking garage
next to my building).

For me (and possibly only me, I don't know your situation), what worked better
than anything was to start eating a keto (low carb, and incidentally no wheat)
diet, which some attribute to having anti-inflammatory effects:
[http://www.wheatbellyblog.com/2012/01/low-back-pain-
chiropra...](http://www.wheatbellyblog.com/2012/01/low-back-pain-
chiropractors-nsaids-narcotics-and-wheat/). The pain went away very quickly
(for me within a week of starting the diet) and I can walk normally again.

I'm not saying it will work for you, I don't know, but I've been on the diet
for four months now, and the pain hasn't returned since. You might want to
consider it. It significantly improved my life. I also lost 40lbs as well in
that time period, with not a whole lot of exercise, which I'm hoping will help
insure the pain doesn't come back in the future.

It's awful and it dictates your life when you have it, I know. I hope you
figure out what's wrong and find something that works for you.

Also, if nothing else, I noticed that I could stay in the pool pretty much as
long as I wanted when I had back pain, due to its buoyancy effect, so when I
did have back pain, I got my exercise in by going to the pool regularly, and
found relief from my pain while I was in there. You might want to consider
that for weight loss as well.

If you are interested in keto, check out
[http://www.reddit.com/r/keto](http://www.reddit.com/r/keto). It's a great
source of information, motivation, and similar stories such as mine by real
people, not paid endorsements.

~~~
vrtx0
Thanks for the suggestion. I've tried various diets, including Keto, LCHF,
etc. I try to stick with LCHF just to slow down my weight gain, but it doesn't
impact my pain or neurological symptoms.

For anybody else reading this I'm a similar situation, please do follow
cableshaft's advice and try new diets. I also recommend physical therapy.

The cause(s) of MS and many similar diseases are not well understood. At all.
FWIW, I lived a pretty healthy lifestyle before my symptoms started.

~~~
daheza
When I went to physical therapy it consisted of them just teaching me
stretches, all of which I could just find online. Is this the normal
experience?

~~~
vrtx0
Good question. I can only share my personal experience; I've seen 5, but only
2 seemed to understand my pain and gave me exercises tailored to my needs
(using elastic bands, aqua exercises, stretching, etc.). The standard for back
pain seems to be core strengthening. I found aquatic exercises most helpful
(and least painful) for that.

The best ones I've seen were both athletes who succumbed to back injuries. But
there must be good PTs who learned by the book too... I hope.

~~~
madengr
I also went to a PT that specialized in low back pain & sciatica. Mine has
finally gone away and the PT helped, but it has taken 1 year.

There was a study in the UK where 90% of back pain goes away in 1 year, so
they advised against any surgery. Of course this was in the UK so they
couldn't get surgery within a year.

------
jokoon
I'm not even american, I'm french, 31, I have skills in programming (C++, php,
python, and some math), did not obtain my degree, and I have never worked more
than a month during all my life. I currently have the disability status, and I
will soon train to be an army reservist. I regularly see a psychiatrist for
therapy and took anti depressant for 4 years. The inactivity and the feeling
of exclusion is soul-killing (Of course there are people in worse situations
than mine).

Every month I check a box online to certify I am actively looking for a job,
but honestly I am not. How on earth do you want people like me begging for a
job? It makes no sense. The worst thing is how society treats you and blames
you for "laziness", yet those people are increasing but it seems nobody wants
to hear it.

In some meeting with other people with disabilities, I suggested that there
should be companies whose job is to match candidates with companies directly,
so that candidates do not have to move sky and earth to find a job. I think
it's not even a problem of investment and risk taking, it's just that there is
nothing to build or to make, except software and robots, which require
education, which is always money-constrained, unsurprisingly. Either that or
people don't want to work anymore, and it's fine, because work is less and
less necessary.

What kills me even more is the whole "get motivated" movement. I know I'm
ranting but to me, society looks like a giant treading mill. Happiness and the
slow, intelligent life have been forgotten in favor of a society of endless
work and jobs. Contributing to the labor force has become a religion. The
simple idea of idleness and staying at home to paint or draw seems to drive
people crazy. It should not.

~~~
andrepd
>The simple idea of idleness and staying at home to paint or draw seems to
drive people crazy.

It kinda does, because for you to be able to idle and sit in your home
painting, somebody else has to go on the "giant treadmill" to feed you, house
you, and clothe you. Do you think I wouldn't like to idle at home as I please,
and paint and write and read and laze about? Only if everybody did that we
would all starve to death. It seems to me to be a gigantic sense of
entitlement, that you deride people who work and brag about not looking for a
job and complain about being called lazy, when in fact those people are the
ones paying for your food so you can lounge about your house and paint and
what else. Unless you have a legitimate disability, yeah, that pisses me off.

~~~
secstate
I think the problem with your statement is that the Information Revolution
came with a philosophy that automation would end the need for 9-5 Industrial
Revolution ideas of work.

It hasn't, and we're still working 40 hours a week, but now it's to support
the consumption machine that WWII created. Do we really need new original
Netflix programming? Do we need whatever crazy-ass pumpkin and coffee flavored
beverage a hard working soul at Starbucks or Tim Horton's has cooked up for
the fall season? Do we need bigger, cheaper televisions? Faster computers? A
new diet craze? A new exercise regime that will be better than the last? Where
does this end?

Not to be overly dramatic on a Monday morning, but where are we going with our
hustle and drive? When you stop and meditate on that, you realize that to
feed, house and clothe us requires 10% of the energy we burn every day, but
not if we expect a hedonistic lifestyle where you eat something new, fresh and
delicious everyday. I'm not free of that expectation either, so that's not a
judgement, just an observation.

~~~
muninn_
Well we don't need a TV at all. Or a 2,000 square foot house, or an education.
We could just subsistence farm or something.

Your life is what you make out of it. I work hard, think consumerism is dumb,
and I generally spend my extra income by investing it. But I also enjoy
getting some really great coffee (not necessarily from Starbucks) or watching
a really fun TV show. Try not to worry too much about what frivolous things
people spend money on, or it'll drive you crazy.

~~~
coldtea
> _Well we don 't need a TV at all. Or a 2,000 square foot house, or an
> education. We could just subsistence farm or something._

Because it's either BS consumerism or subsistence farming?

~~~
muninn_
Well, what's consumerism to one isn't to another. If you're going to discuss
needs and say somebody doesn't "need" something, then frankly there is a lot
that we don't "need". To sustain life we could probably all get by as farmers
and anything else would just be more than we "need".

~~~
eveningcoffee
What farmers? People used to kill other animals and pick berries, fruits and
seeds.

~~~
witty_username
That's pretty tiring. Easier to just throw seeds into the ground and let it
grow. You can just pick it much more easily.

~~~
eveningcoffee
It is a simplistic view of it. Hardest part of the farming is not seeding,
even not land preparation and maintaining, but making sure that you are the
one to pick and keep the harvest.

------
hedgew
In programming and academia you only see the most gifted of society, and even
many of those seem to struggle. I can barely imagine what it would be like to
be in the less gifted half of the population. I wonder if such men have any
chance to build a life respected, or even just work enough to found a family.
They seem to have fewer options each year, to find satisfying roles in life.

They seem to receive even less understanding or sympathy.

~~~
qntty
This is why Trump is popular. He's the opiate of people who are left behind.
People mock them for supporting Trump, but few people offer appealing
alternatives.

~~~
kirRoyale
Trump is popular because Clinton is un-electable. As someone who works in IT,
I know the kinds of hoops people jump through to make sure everything is
secure. And for her just to shit on those rules so willingly is un-redeemable
IMO.

------
reader5000
Any research on association of joblessness with internet addiction? I know
China has entire state-sponsored treatment programs for internet/video game
addiction; they think it is a real problem. I think if a person is consuming
8-9 hours of electronic media per day (which is around average), particularly
internet or video games, then their motivation/capacity to interface with the
real world is severely damaged. In many ways reality is not as
rewarding/stimulating as the internet, but is also more difficult and risky.
Just take the case of mating: I can enjoy simulated physical intimacy with
literally thousands of physically attractive women with 0 risk of rejection
and 0 effort, or I can take on the risk of painful rejection and enormous
effort of achieving "social status" and being "charismatic" in order to
attract an "actual" woman with whom I get to have "actual" sex, which at the
end of the day is just not as good as fake sex with 100s of different
electronic women. And really, if I have no need to find a real woman, what
need do I have to find a job? Electronic stimulation is severely fucking up
the reward/motivation functioning of the human brain, at least for some
people, in the same way alcohol is a huge problem for some people.

I think the other factor is simply technological productivity. A handful of
software engineers can run e.g. Facebook, a social networking site for
billions of people. A handful of farmers can produce food for billions of
people. Every job opening receives 100s to 1000s of resumes because the
world's productivity to consumption of human labor ratio increases every day.
If you're not like a top .01% skill level person, you're really not needed.
Your brain has been obsoleted.

~~~
pcurve
The problem is, this has been a long term trend that pre-dates proliferation
of internet by decades.

~~~
reader5000
How you mean? Young people dropping out of society I thought was a relatively
recent thing. In Japan "hikikomori" started getting noted early 2000s.

------
muse900
What I'll write might sound stupid to some but well...

There needs to be a re-configuration of the global economy and its system.

People like me late 20's and younger might be feeling that they have no
future. At least I do. I am working full-time and thats fine. That only pays
my day to day expenses, coming the end of the month am always out of money
waiting for the next paycheck. Me buying my own house? That sounds like some
sort of sorcery to me...

Unfortunately prices went up, on houses etc and nowadays you got Tech involved
in anything you do. You have to have a smartphone, and your wife wants the
smartphone with the bitten apple no matter if it will cost half a months
salary. Your kids want an Ipad or some sort of tablet. Your household needs a
TV with netflix, amazon and whatever so you don't get bored. Add all those
small things around and the era where everyone is obsessed with "BRANDS", yes
let me buy a GANT sweater cause it going to make me so cool, while I could
have bought a sweater much much cheaper of the same quality.

Unfortunately that makes you think that ok... live today and let tomorrow be.

Also another thing that I see around a lot is the use of Drugs and Weed
especially. Several people I know or most I'd say they make daily use of Weed.
Thats definitely affecting their mind and tbh they've reached the level of
obsession with it where they really don't need anything else to live off.

There is literally no goal set for me. Will I get a pension when I get older?
WHO KNOWS? Will I ever get off working even when I reach a very old age? Who
knows, most likely i'll be working for the rest of my life... Will I be able
to afford a house and a normal way of life? Probably in the next 20 years,
thats too late but its the truth I'll be around 50's when I'll be owning a
house. Not an expensive house, a house that prolly when I sell it won't even
cover me for 5 years of living without a job. Thats the sad situation that I
and all youngsters are in, let alone people in the US or even Europe with
Student loans, I don't even wanna think of them and what kind of future can
they have.

P.S I am referring to an example of what the average person around me thinks
of. Don't call me self-entitled that's harsh and you don't know me.

~~~
reverend_gonzo
Jesus, there is so much entitlement in this post I don't even know where to
start.

No, you don't NEED an Apple iPhone, and a TV with Netflix, and Amazon, and a
Gant sweater. There are thousands of families that are surviving just fine
without any of that. We have survived for centuries without external
entertainment, and suddenly, you NEED this so you don't get bored?

Why not have a conversation with your wife. Sit down at the dinner table and
have a conversation with your family. Go for a hike out in nature. There are
ways to entertain yourself without modern technology.

If you want to keep up with the Jones's, yeah, you're going to have to make
more, or sacrifice your life in other ways.

You want to buy a house in your 30s? Figure out how to increase your value so
you can get paid more, or start saving your money.

Pensions are long gone. They have IRAs. If you're worried about retirement,
set money aside right now. Of course, this may mean you can't be the most
recent iPhone that was released. Tradeoffs. Everything has tradeoffs.

There is nothing guaranteed in life but death and taxes. Keep that in mind,
and figure out what's most important to you. Welcome to the real world.

~~~
mfoy_
I agree that GP is deluded and entitled. Not to absolve him of his own
responsibility for his decisions, but there are very strong forces out there
proactively pushing this mindset on people. Companies spend insane amounts of
money trying to convince more people that they "need" their products.

It's not even just ads and commercials that are guilty of this. Most
mainstream media assumes the "American Dream" happens to involve a lot of
material possessions, and proceeds accordingly. It's in the little things, and
it's everywhere.

~~~
reverend_gonzo
Absolutely. Society itself is caught up in material possessions, and hell, we
are bombarded by so much marketing, that we believe we need all these new
things. I get caught up in it myself, but at some point in their lives, people
need to take responsibility for themselves.

The original poster wants everything and expects to be given everything. Whats
worse is he thinks previous generations had it so easy, and can't realize the
sacrifices they had to make.

Owning a house was one of the things that everybody aspired to, which meant
they set aside money every month, and maybe after ten or twenty years of solid
savings, they could afford the down payment, and buy a house.

OP is thinking of pre-2008 days, where clown and his cat was flipping houses,
but that was not a normal market, and most of them lost it anyways.

He need to figure out what his priorities are: Does he want to own his own
home, save for retirement, or live the latest, greatest gadgets?

If he wants everything, there's a simple solution. Find how to make more money
than the people he hangs out with.

------
makomk
It probably doesn't help that some companies, such as Amazon, like to treat
their unskilled labourers as basically disposable. It's a lot more profitable
to set performance requirements that are impossible to meet without seriously
injuring yourself, then replace all the temp workers regularly with fresh
meat, than to have decent working conditions.

~~~
trentnix
The scenario you describe simply doesn't pass the smell test. I own a business
(retail) that employs 10 and retail is, to a certain degree, "unskilled". My
experience has been that it is very, very difficult to find dependable,
trustworthy employees who work diligently and productively.

Consequently, employers simply do not have the "luxury" to set up a system
that treats employees as disposable. It's not profitable at all to do what you
indicated is being done, as the cost of finding, hiring, and training new
employees is considerable. That's why, so often, you see businesses doing the
opposite of what you describe by holding on to poor performers far longer than
they should - dealing with worker incompetence is sometimes preferable to
starting over hoping for a different outcome.

~~~
DashRattlesnake
> The scenario you describe simply doesn't pass the smell test.

It's pretty well documented. Here are a couple of articles that outline the
conditions at Amazon, but I'm sure there are more.

[http://highline.huffingtonpost.com/articles/en/life-and-
deat...](http://highline.huffingtonpost.com/articles/en/life-and-death-amazon-
temp/)

[http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2012/02/mac-
mcclelland-f...](http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2012/02/mac-mcclelland-
free-online-shipping-warehouses-labor)

You might want to also read up on how temp labor is treated, to see how other
workers are treated disposably.

> Consequently, employers simply do not have the "luxury" to set up a system
> that treats employees as disposable.

Yet somehow, in many cases, they do so anyway. You might be an enlightened
business owner that properly sees that as foolish, but that doesn't have any
bearing on the behavior of other American businesses, especially ones where
(unlike yours) the owner can't know all the employees.

~~~
trentnix
But that's the thing - temp labor _is, by definition, disposable_. A business
has little incentive to invest in employees that are likely to turn over
frequently, and that's what temp labor does. The links you provided - which
read like propaganda, btw - have an insightful message:

 _" mainly all I needed to get hired was to confirm 20 or 30 times that I had
not been to prison"_

So it appears Amazon does struggle to get good help, employs very, very low-
skilled works, and has systems set up that provide structure. Indeed, it's
very controlling to the average information worker that comments on Hacker
News, but just might work well within the confines of their warehouse.

~~~
DashRattlesnake
> But that's the thing - temp labor is, by definition, disposable.

You're moving the goalposts. Your initial post, which I was responding to,
said that companies treating their unskilled workers as disposable "doesn't
pass the smell test." Now, when confronted with evidence, you claim that same
treatment is "by definition." That's not very consistent.

> The links you provided - which read like propaganda, btw

So sorry to impinge on your bubble. Too bad I couldn't burst it.

> So it appears Amazon does struggle to get good help

How did you get there from that quote? That's not the only explanation for
wanting employees that haven't been to prison, let alone the most likely one.

> and has systems set up that provide structure. Indeed, it's very controlling
> to the average information worker that comments on Hacker News, but just
> might work well within the confines of their warehouse.

These workers are people, and they should not be treated like unthinking
machines.

~~~
trentnix
1\. Hardly. It's simply a recognition that a temp worker and temp opportunity
recognize the fleeting nature of a particular job position.

2\. They read like propaganda because they set up dramatic emotional arguments
about people and their families. Is it really necessary to know that the
gentleman calls his wife at 2am because she "can't sleep when he isn't there"?
It's manipulation, and consequently your response would lead me to feel quite
comfortable that it's not me in the bubble.

3\. If the economics of a particular job don't justify a higher wage, then the
standards for hiring are lowered. It's not a reach at all to arrive at my
conclusion.

4\. Indeed, these workers are people. And because they aren't unthinking
machines, they shouldn't work in a place that doesn't place any value on their
well-being. The market will then sort out poor employers appropriately.

~~~
DashRattlesnake
> Hardly. It's simply a recognition that a temp worker and temp opportunity
> recognize the fleeting nature of a particular job position.

Again, it's moving the goalposts to say these situations "don't pass the smell
test," then turn around to say "but it's OK because they're temps."

> Is it really necessary to know that the gentleman calls his wife

Perhaps not, but it's more engaging writing, and there's _plenty_ of factual
reporting there as well.

> Indeed, these workers are people. And because they aren't unthinking
> machines, they shouldn't work in a place that doesn't place any value on
> their well-being. The market will then sort out poor employers
> appropriately.

The thing is, the real situation is usually more complicated and often doesn't
offer such easy choices for the actual workers. It's telling that, on the one
hand, you excuse these work environments as being fit for non-information-
workers, then turn around an expect these workers to have information-worker
levels of economic power in job choice.

While it can be quite comforting to believe the market will sort this all out,
I think that's naive and causes some people to blind themselves to the actual
problems out there.

------
brohee
Comparing those numbers with Europe, whose safety net doesn't usually require
people to pretend being disabled, would have been enlightening. A missed
opportunity.

~~~
s_q_b
I would wager most of those people _are_ disabled, but for psychological
reasons. As you point out, the level of stress caused by financial insecurity
during any period of disability is extremely high.

A lot of white collar workers in the US end up in a particular catch-22: their
jobs are making them sick, but because they are sick, they can't leave their
jobs. They become psychologically disabled because of the pressure to return
to work before they are well, the stressor of battling the insurance
companies, and the suffering from the cultural shame of not actively working.

Finally, after the 12-week FMLA requirement is exceeded, absent any policy,
state law, contract, a company can fire an employee for absence after
returning from, or even during, disability leave.

In conclusion, there is no doubt that there are some true "fakes" scamming the
system. Afterall, the largest cause of disability is Generalized Anxiety
Disorder, followed by several other "invisible" disabilities that cannot be
objectively verified.

That makes me very upset, given that I sufferered a massively disruptive
neuropathic pain disorder that only recently subsided enough to start coding
again.

During those few months, I had to hear constant negative feedback from friends
and relatives, usually telling me the equivalent of "Tough it out like a man."

This false perception was further compounded by the fact that I didn't _look_
disabled. Every photo on Facebook caused a barrage of "I thought you were
sick" comments, not realizing that my medical orders were to learn to
resocialize despite the pain. Then that snapshot becomes people's vision of
your illness, not realizing that the quiet dinner with your friends was the
one hour you spent out of bed that day.

These skeptical responses are certainly due to the widespread deception by
some, as you describe. I am just grateful that I had a "hard" medical
diagnosis upon which to rely.

But some people really do need the disability insurance, which they have paid
to obtain, in order to survive, not lose their homes, and pay for medical care
during periods of tremendous suffering.

Everyone, please remember that not all illnesses present to the naked eye, or
even to physical examination. We do not fully understand how either the human
body, or more importantly, the human brain functions. Without that knowledge,
it is almost impossible to tell the genuine afflictions from the false claims.

~~~
VLM
"In conclusion, there is no doubt that there are some true "fakes" scamming
the system."

The system scammed them. "Do what your teachers say and collect pieces of
paper from academics and 100% of you will get a guaranteed lifelong meal
ticket with great bennies"

So now they have to suicide, taking their families with them, because no job
means no food no shelter no medical care ... or they can scam the system right
back, just like the system scammed them. "For my whole life, did everything I
was told no matter how hard or stupid it sounded, to get that lifelong real
job meal ticket, they took it away from everyone in my community to save
money, guess I'll just collect a lifelong disability meal ticket instead, its
a lot of work and BS but the process selected for people good at putting up
with BS so I'll surely get mine"

In modern America disability is our only long term unemployment system. You
get pain pills for phantom pain then sell them for extra cash. The system
screws you, you screw it right back. Isn't their fault they were born into a
system that tossed them away like human trash. The system is faulty, not them.

------
ZeroGravitas
After watching the documentary "13th" on Netflix recently, I wondered about
how the US prison population affected this. Something like 1 out of 100 people
in the US are in prison, which must be close to 2 out of 100 men. And another
chunk of people who's function in society is to monitor those in jail. Plus
the difficulties of getting a job as a felon. Seemed like all put together
must have a serious impact on productivity.

~~~
kbenson
> Something like 1 out of 100 people in the US are in prison, which must be
> close to 2 out of 100 men.

Wait, doesn't that mean that mean that twice as many men are in prison as
people are in prison?

~~~
ZeroGravitas
I'm not sure if you're just confused because I switched from people to men,
but it prompted me to look up the actual figures which are:

1352 per 100,000 men 126 per 100,000 women

[http://www.prisonpolicy.org/graphs/genderinc.html](http://www.prisonpolicy.org/graphs/genderinc.html)

~~~
kbenson
Ah, I see what you are saying, I wasn't thinking about the groups from which
you were drawing (mornings before coffee obviously don't show me at my best).

My first thought after understanding what you were trying to say is actually
backed up by the stats you found, as while men make up slightly less than half
the populace, they have a much higher incarceration rate.

------
elementalest
I think part of the problem is that jobs are becoming more and more high skill
based, requiring many years of university level education. The low skilled
jobs are replaced with high skilled ones. The problem is our education systems
are falling behind. Education needs to be readily accessible and inexpensive
for both initial schooling and those who need/want to re-skill. The
universities should also have employment programs which help workers new to
their field find and obtain jobs so they can gain experience.

With the economy the way it is (slower growth, wage stagnation etc), employers
are unwilling to take the potential risk with low skilled workers (who have no
degree) and there are plenty of new workers who just finished their degree
which employers will prefer to employ. I suspect there would be enough jobs,
if there were enough high skilled workers and a better economy. I think the
problem is there is a shortage of high skilled experienced workers and an
oversupply of lower skilled workers.

As some anecdotal evidence, when I search for software engineering / developer
jobs in my country, I see a lot of high skilled jobs available, requiring
moderate to significant levels of experience and/or education. However, there
are much fewer junior/graduate/basic developer jobs available.

To become a high skilled worker, you generally have to start in the low
skilled jobs, or get a PhD. If its hard to get a lower skilled/entry level job
due to low demand, the rate higher skilled worker are produced is restricted.
So its a catch 22.

------
jliptzin
I don't dispute the numbers in the article and can't speak to the tragedy of
opioid addiction, but whenever I see something like this I am reminded of a
friend of mine who never had a job, and never looked, from ages 18-30. He came
from an upper-middle class family and his parents basically supported him all
those years and he was fine with that. He knows he's lazy and embraced that as
long as he could. To outsiders who'd ask why he doesn't have a job, he'd blame
it on things like a crummy job market, chronic joint pain, or that he had
hearing issues that prevented him from working effectively. He never went on
disability though. Finally when his parents' fortune ran low, he had to suck
it up and start working and he's doing fine now.

So, I always wonder when reading this stuff, what portion of the sample just
has "affluenza" and is blaming it on something else to hide the truth (which,
by the way, I don't have a problem with - if someone wants to embrace being
lazy and has the means to do it, then go ahead).

~~~
ythl
> So, I always wonder when reading this stuff, what portion of the sample just
> has "affluenza"

People don't like being held accountable for their own situation. The blame
will always be shifted to society where possible. You see it everywhere. One's
circumstances in a given study are rarely, if ever, blamed on the individual.
People are generally assumed to be doing everything right but are simply
victims of "the system"

------
sailfast
Not pointed out in the article, but perhaps in the study(?) - the United
States has been engaged in an active war for the past 15 years that likely
contributes to an increased number of those taking painkillers for injuries or
having some sort of psychological disorder. In my mind I liken it to
shellshock and after-effects felt in societies post WWI / WWII. I don't have
specifics on the number of wounded / in treatment but it is likely not an
insignificant contributor to such an increase.

~~~
bandrami
There are two crucial differences between the wars of the past decade and a
half and WWII/Vietnam, though:

1\. The number of veterans is very small

2\. Veterans are overwhelmingly from the richer half of the population

About 0.5% of the cohort currently between the ages of 20 and 40 had any
military service (compare to 12% of the WWII cohort and 6% of the Vietnam
cohort), and only about half of _that_ population saw service in Iraq or
Afghanistan (e.g. I was active duty for almost all of the Iraq war and never
went to theater, nor did almost anybody in my battalion).

Furthermore (and this has been troubling the Pentagon for a while), the
enlistment/commissioning standards the military has make it very difficult for
poor Americans to serve. The poorest 20% of Americans are the least likely to
serve, followed by the next-poorest. In fact it's _nearly_ a perfect
correlation except that the richest 20% are slightly less likely to serve than
the second quintile. This yields a recruit and officer candidate pool that is
both richer and whiter than the nation as a whole. (On the other hand, richer
whiter servicemembers have abysmal retention rates, so that the standing force
is browner and poorer than the nation as a whole because most of the middle
class white people leave after one tour).

~~~
sailfast
These arguments make sense, but the duration of the wars was completely
different, as were the number of people returned injured (read: mortality
stats have greatly improved). Scale is different, but so are the wars.
Probably end up with something in the middle?

The latest I've got is that in 2013 over 2.6 Million Americans had been
deployed to Afghanistan or Iraq. (That number is obviously higher now).[1]

The impact percentage-wise to those returning veterans with either TBI, PTSD,
etc is relatively high: [http://www.research.va.gov/topics/oef-
oif.cfm](http://www.research.va.gov/topics/oef-oif.cfm)

No data in those articles about labor force contributions and any impacts
there - that would be an interesting area to get more data to see how much the
wars have contributed to the laborforce issues identified in the article.

[1]: [http://www.ibtimes.com/va-stops-releasing-data-injured-
vets-...](http://www.ibtimes.com/va-stops-releasing-data-injured-vets-total-
reaches-grim-milestone-exclusive-1449584)

------
slfnflctd
> 31 percent of those receiving benefits have mental disorders

This has got to be a major contributing factor. Add in those with undiagnosed
psych problems, and I'm sure it would stand out even more. [Of course, maybe
they would be balanced out by the 'fakers'\-- but that is almost equally
alarming, and itself suggests all kinds of deeper problems.]

Both reducing the stigma of and increasing access to mental health care are
hugely important right now. Most people with such issues are perfectly capable
of being productive employees-- but not if they are marginalized through
terrible hiring processes, workplace 'social politics' and inflexible,
unsympathetic (or simply incompetent) management. A robust jobs program could
certainly help.

~~~
contingencies
If that many people are supposed to have mental 'disorders', perhaps the
problem is really those wielding the alleged definition.

~~~
istjohn
Your knee-jerk response to this statistic is symptomatic of the stygma
attatched to mental illness in our society. If this was a statistic on a viral
infection, would you be so doubtful?

This attitude is what keeps people from being willing to seek help when they
suffer from depression or suicidal thoughts for fear that skeptics will judge
them as faking or lacking character. As someone who lived for over ten years
with multiple undiagnosed mental disorders and suffered significant,
unnecesary setbacks as a result, I believe we still have a ways to go before
mental health is treated with the appropriate amount of concern.

~~~
contingencies
I think you misread my comments. I am just saying that when a fairly large
percentage of the population is considered 'mentally ill' then they're
probably not ill at all, they're just having a perfectly reasonable response
to a completely screwed up society. I mean objectively the binary view of
"sick" and "healthy" is wrong for starters. Also objectively, many societies
don't have these issues or at least don't have these issues to nearly the
rates that the US or Japan does... what does that you tell you about so-called
(capitalist) "development" in a society? Maybe something, maybe nothing. You
be the judge. Not that anyone asked, but I personally believe the whole
antidepressant epidemic in the US (and other places, like Denmark, the self-
reported happiest country on earth) is a symptom of a fundamental breakdown in
the community aspects of society and a pervasive, deep-seated sense of mental
rudderlessness infecting the more vulnerable parts of the population (lower
socioeconomic status, indebted/mortgaged workers, isolated lifestyle
individuals, the elderly) as a result.

~~~
moosey
> the whole antidepressant epidemic in the US (and other places, like Denmark,
> the self-reported happiest country on earth) is a symptom of a fundamental
> breakdown in the community aspects of society and a pervasive, deep-seated
> sense of mental rudderlessness infecting the more vulnerable parts of the
> population

That causes damage. Turning your ankle or pulling a muscle might be more
obvious, because it's purely physical, but there isn't as much difference as
you think.

There have been studies that show that long term unemployment causes permanent
changes to a persons personality, one not easily healed by getting a new
job[1]. These modifications to thinking and increased stress levels lead to
physical changes (and argumentatively decay). Pointing out the source of the
problem in society does not change the fact that it isn't mental illness.
Quite on the contrary, giving a source is similar to pointing at a poisoned
well and saying "That's why everyone is sick.", but then afterwards saying
nobody is really sick because we all know the well is poisoned.

[1]: [http://mentalhealthdaily.com/2015/02/25/long-term-
unemployme...](http://mentalhealthdaily.com/2015/02/25/long-term-unemployment-
changes-personality-traits/)

~~~
Grishnakh
Your analogy about the poisoned well is good, but I think what you're missing
is that, I believe, the OP's point is that merely treating people with mental
disorders is not the right solution. In your well example, if you have a
poisoned well making everyone sick, the solution is NOT to treat everyone for
poisoning, and continue drinking the water! Instead, you find a new well, or
figure out how to un-poison the well (obviously, in the meantime you treat the
people currently poisoned, but first and foremost you don't keep drinking
poisoned water). Similarly here, the solution is not to keep going with our
current broken society, but to fix the society so that people aren't being
made mentally ill by it.

------
matthewmorgan
Recommended reading: In Praise of Idleness By Bertrand Russell

[http://www.zpub.com/notes/idle.html](http://www.zpub.com/notes/idle.html)

------
naveen99
Statistics foR women for reference :
[https://www.dol.gov/wb/stats/Laborforce_par_rate_edu_att_sex...](https://www.dol.gov/wb/stats/Laborforce_par_rate_edu_att_sex_2015_txt.htm)

Women labor force participation rate in india 24%
[http://mobile.nytimes.com/2015/08/24/opinion/why-arent-
india...](http://mobile.nytimes.com/2015/08/24/opinion/why-arent-indias-women-
working.html)

------
sc4th1s
Video games could be playing a part:
[https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2016/09/23/why-a...](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2016/09/23/why-
amazing-video-games-could-be-causing-a-big-problem-for-america/)

~~~
rjbwork
Seems like a symptom, not a cause. Escapism for the psychologically inflicted
and chronically unemployed.

~~~
brockers
I don't know. Escapism before the advent of technology generally meant writing
letters, reading books, walking, drinking, and visiting friends. All these
activities seem to promote mental health and productive behavior compared to
digital media. Digital media generally discourages socializing (or at least
not real human interaction), discourages sleep, promotes a lack of physical
exercise, et al.

Maybe I'm wrong, I'm not trying to argue; just talking out loud about my
perceptions as a Software Engineering, Civ5, and CSGo player.

------
return0
Some more thoughts on that worrying trend by larry summers (unfortunately
behind firewall but readable here:
[https://www.google.com/?q=Men+not+at+work:+Lawrence+Summers+...](https://www.google.com/?q=Men+not+at+work:+Lawrence+Summers+on+America%E2%80%99s+hidden+unemployment))

------
nolepointer
And just to be clear, this is the same editorial board that supports Hillary
Clinton, who will increase outsourcing?

------
a_c
> ... were not in the labor force, which means that they were not employed and
> were not seeking a job.

Does entrepreneurs constitute labor force? If so, then "labor force" and "not
employed and not seeking a job" are not exactly the same

~~~
CydeWeys
I'm not aware of any unemployment figure that includes small business owners
or those who are self-employed.

The real question is, are people who retired early (see
/r/financialindependence) counted in this figure? What about trust fund kids?
I'd argue that if you have enough money to not need to work, and you aren't,
and you don't want to, then you should slot into some category very different
than the people who can't work and aren't self-sufficient financially.

------
neves
And if doesn't talk about the incarcerated population. In USA they are a big
chunk of the young male population (a lot of them black).

------
k__
After reading that even developers got out of business by disability, I'm
happy that I got an insurance for this last year.

------
Alex3917
Seems dubious. 50% of American adults have had chronic pain for the last 20
years, but unemployment among men has gone up dramatically in that time.

That said, we should ban companies like Red Bull from sponsoring extreme
sports. Every time you see one of those People Are Awesome videos in your
Facebook feed there is an entire cohort of permanently disabled kids that went
into the making. There is a great documentary called Crash Reel about this.

~~~
Bartweiss
Chronic pain, yes, but painkiller use has been rising within constant rates of
pain.

