
The Subway Doesn't Have to Be Hot and Gross - pmoriarty
https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/ev8jye/no-the-subway-doesnt-have-to-be-insanely-hot-and-gross
======
Renaud
20 years ago, the MTRC in Hong Kong started to install platform screen doors
to seal off the platforms and reduce their air conditioning bill as most of
the cool air was of course just going into the tunnels. That investment paid
for itself within a few years.

Evacuating the heat from the train is another issue that must be addressed but
it’s far from being an unaddressable one and there are already many examples
of other cities implementing workable solutions.

Having doors installed along the platform has a number of advantages beside
air conditioning: increased safety (no more suicides and accidents), more
platform capacity since people can get right to the edge of the platform,
potential increase in network capacity since trains can enter the station
faster as they don’t have to slow down early to enter the platform at low
speed to avoid passengers accidents.

Older networks like London, Paris and New York have a much harder time
implementing these measures as they are often very deep and their
infrastructure are old and quite vast, but they each have projects to tackle
these issues, although in the case of New York, the cost will probably slow
down adoption (not least because of the crazy Union requirements).

~~~
bobthepanda
The problem with doors in New York in particular is that not all generations
of rolling stock have doors in the same location. Unlike MTRC, where one line
has its own rolling stock and there is no interoperation between different
lines, many services, each with different door positions, can utilize the same
platforms. And basically the only way to have a door configuration compatible
with all rolling stock is to not install any doors at all.

You could replace the rolling stock, but all of it is in good operating
condition, and the last of the oldest cars with non-compatible doors would be
retired in the 2030s.

Air conditioning is also a huge challenge; traditionally, New York's subway
has been cooled using the piston effect of trains, with frequent grates open
to the surface to draw in air. With air conditioning those large, frequent
openings are now a curse.

~~~
jrockway
The IRT and BMT Eastern Division all use cars that have doors at the same
place, so that's not an excuse to not try platform doors. You could make the
test station one of the L train stations that's going to be closed for two
years and install them at a super leisurely pace. (The L is basically
completely isolated from the rest of the system, and already requires special
rolling stock for CBTC. And it's going to be closed for two years for other
repairs.)

Even if varying door locations were the problem... Tokyo has many lines that
share rolling stock among 3 or even 4 separate rail companies, and they still
have platform doors. There are just a lot more doors in the station than on
each train.

There simply is no interest or money for platform doors in NYC. Even though
people fall onto the tracks and are killed, even though many stations suffer
from capacity problems because there aren't enough safe places to stand, even
though people holding train doors delays every train multiple minutes a day...
we're simply allergic to the concept. I've never even heard it seriously
proposed.

~~~
bobthepanda
The major IRT lines save for the 7 operate mixed fleets of NTT and R62/A
equipment, none of which share door positions IIRC. The Eastern Division still
uses old rolling stock like R42s from time to time. The last time they tried
getting rid of cars prematurely, the R179 order came in late and they were
forced to run what cars remained had more aggressively, degrading reliability.

> You could make the test station one of the L train stations that's going to
> be closed for two years and install them at a super leisurely pace. (The L
> is basically completely isolated from the rest of the system, and already
> requires special rolling stock for CBTC. And it's going to be closed for two
> years for other repairs.)

This actually was a proposal. It was recently killed in favor of bringing
elevators to Union Square, a major subway complex that is not ADA accessible.
Which is really why they haven't caught on as a serious engineering proposal;
the list of things that would be much better value for money is long, such as
systemwide ADA accessibility, CBTC signalling, replacement of rolling stock,
refurbishment of dilapidated, water-damaged stations, etc. You could easily
come up with $50B worth of upgrades, extensions, etc. before platform doors
became a priority. And they're not even that feasible.

> There are just a lot more doors in the station than on each train.

Got a source for this? This is intriguing because I've never heard of
something like this. But this also introduces the complexity that the right
doors have to open at the right time, lest a blind person walk into a gap
between trains and die. Which is a lot to ask from an agency that can barely
maintain something as mundane as elevators and escalators.

~~~
amarshall
> The major IRT lines save for the 7 operate mixed fleets of NTT and R62/A
> equipment, none of which share door positions IIRC

Do they not? The R62 and R142 cars are both the same number of doors and of
the same length [1] [2], and the moving platforms at some stations would, I
think, require the doors be in approximately the same spot, no?

> The Eastern Division still uses old rolling stock like R42s from time to
> time.

Yes, but the R42 and R143/R160 have the same overall length and door count
(and the spacing appears to be the same as well) [3] [4]

As an aside: it’s quite frustrating that the measurements given on the
datasheets are of varying frequency.

[1]
[https://www.nycsubway.org/perl/caption.pl?/img/cars/sheet-r6...](https://www.nycsubway.org/perl/caption.pl?/img/cars/sheet-r62.jpg)

[2]
[https://www.nycsubway.org/perl/caption.pl?/img/cars/sheet-r1...](https://www.nycsubway.org/perl/caption.pl?/img/cars/sheet-r142.jpg)

[3]
[https://www.nycsubway.org/perl/caption.pl?/img/cars/sheet-r4...](https://www.nycsubway.org/perl/caption.pl?/img/cars/sheet-r42.jpg)

[4]
[https://www.nycsubway.org/perl/caption.pl?/img/cars/sheet-r1...](https://www.nycsubway.org/perl/caption.pl?/img/cars/sheet-r143.jpg)

~~~
bobthepanda
They do not.

In R62s, doors are parallel to each other on each side of the car. [1]

However, it was found that because passengers like to crowd at doors,
passengers wishing to exit from either side would just crowd in the same
place.

To ease crowding, the NTTs have wider, offset doors, so that not everybody is
standing in the same place [2]

The gap fillers at Union Square are very long, which is why they can line up
with multiple door positions. [3]

[1] -
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R62_(New_York_City_Subway_car)...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R62_\(New_York_City_Subway_car\)#/media/File:R62_interior.jpg)

[2] -
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R142A_(New_York_City_Subway_ca...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R142A_\(New_York_City_Subway_car\)#/media/File:Empty_subway_in_NYC.jpg)

[3] -
[https://i.ytimg.com/vi/rHyfbrJ8ge4/maxresdefault.jpg](https://i.ytimg.com/vi/rHyfbrJ8ge4/maxresdefault.jpg)

------
jpalomaki
Regarding the heat generated from braking. I was surprised to find out that in
our (very small) subway system the stations are higher than the rest of the
track. This slows down the train as it is approaching the station and helps it
regain speed when it leaves the station. A quite obvious idea, but must admit
I might have not thought about it.

In some cities they are building district cooling [1] (comparable to district
heating). Might be quite a difficult solution in densely built areas of
course.

[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/District_cooling](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/District_cooling)

~~~
rzzzt
Can passengers feel a mild roller coaster effect, or is the incline too small
for that?

~~~
Gravityloss
I would assume the incline would be impossible without seeing the horizon,
because the car also accelerates. I guess you mean the increased gravity
feeling at the bottom of the track?

~~~
rzzzt
Right. I traveled once on a long-distance bus line that acted like a zero-
gravity plane for a split second, as it went over a bump in the road. Just
wondering if the experience would be comparable :)

------
digikata
"the majority [of heat comes] from the train hitting the brakes as it pulls
into the station, an intense friction that gives off an exorbitant amount of
warm air."

I wonder if regenerative brakes can be installed (or are already installed...)

~~~
adrianmonk
And/or platform doors:

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Platform_screen_doors](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Platform_screen_doors)

Seems like they'd keep heat from the train from making its way onto the
platform. And if platforms are air-conditioned, they'd keep that air from
escaping into the tunnels.

And of course they can also help with safety.

~~~
bobthepanda
Doors only work if they can line up with every single train that services said
platform. Unfortunately, not all trains share door positions, and most
platforms will see a mixed fleet of trains. The new trains have consistent
door positioning, but the old ones are still in good working order and aren't
due for retirement until late 2020s-early 2030s.

~~~
manquer
It is still doable, you can start by splitting the running stock by similarly
aligned doors run them on few line and start with the few lines which are now
already aligned.

Realistically by the time you are even close to half the 470 stations it will
be late 2020's anyway. Then you can aim for full coverage as the stock is
deprecated.

It is more likely the $1-2 million per station cost is not high priority as
say CBTC which will improve revenue as it increases capacity.

~~~
bobthepanda
The problem is that none of the lines except two of them are separated enough.
Separating them to the degree required for this to work is not possible,
because the crazy interlining is the only way to provide many trips in a
patchwork system that was originally three competing subways; many transfers
would not be available, and the remaining ones would not be able to handle the
resulting transfer volume. It would also not be desirable, because right now
reroutes are commonly used to maintain service in case of problems or
maintenance; doors restricting fleets to lines would reduce operational
flexibilty.

The problem is also too large to segregate. We are talking about a third of
the current fleet that is not compatible with new train door placements. Even
after the oldest of these are retired with projected future train orders, it
will be about a tenth of the fleet, larger than the entire Boston T rapid
transit fleet.

------
isatty2
Anyone who has taken the subway (MRT) in Singapore knows that stations
definitely don't need to hot and gross. It maybe different because we don't
need full HVAC but rather only air conditioning, but taking public transport
has only ever been pleasant (except when it breaks down).

Maybe some principles can be applied to other subway systems?

~~~
mikemotherwell
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_Rapid_Transit_(Singapore)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_Rapid_Transit_\(Singapore\))
vs
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_City_Subway](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_City_Subway)
\- not surprising we learned a lot in 80 years of operating subway systems.

------
ProfessorLayton
Curious to hear from someone who may know more about HVAC than me:

Why don’t subway stations simply install giant industrial mini-spit-style air
conditioners in these stations? It doesn’t seem particularly hard to rout a
few dozen tubes of coolant down to a station while keeping the compressor and
expelling heat outside.

~~~
Alex3917
> It doesn’t seem particularly hard to rout a few dozen tubes of coolant down
> to a station while keeping the compressor and expelling heat outside.

It's hard when you're spending $90.4M to install 3 elevators.

That said, while mostly it's just an annoyance, the heat really is a hazard at
a handful of stations; people are regularly blacking out at union square while
waiting for the L.

~~~
awiesenhofer
Any ideas why its so expensive? For 90m you could get a whole new tram line...

------
Tade0
The other day I calculated that the subway trains in Warsaw must give off as
much heat during braking as a 70-100kW heater working continuously.

And that's a conservative estimate given that I assumed the interval between
trains going a given way to be 5 minutes - during the rush hour they're twice
as frequent.

Not to mention the collective body heat of a few hundred people waiting on the
station which is (!) of the same order.

------
gkanai
The Tokyo subway is both air-conditioned on the platform (in places) as well
as in the cars and has been for decades.

China's subways are all air-conditioned.

------
coldtea
NYC city subway is one of the low points of the city.

On the other hand, it has this cinematic charm that I like as a tourist. But
if I was going to work everyday and seeing this neglect, I'd rather had some
renovations done.

------
johnnyb9
Why do you need AC when you can turn it into a spa?
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=agUF_53fmyw](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=agUF_53fmyw)

