
PayPal Withdraws Plan for Charlotte Expansion - tshtf
https://www.paypal.com/stories/us/paypal-withdraws-plan-for-charlotte-expansion
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throwaway5752
I will be super interested in Red Hat. They threatened to leave for Atlanta in
the past five years. This could not be further from their corporate values,
and they have a highly distributed workforce and a big base of operations in
Massachusetts and a fair number of people in the Bay Area.

McCrory is a real idiot. The money in NC comes from the cities. They may have
won a Pyrrhic victory in the gerrymandering, but now that the rural districts
have this power to drive legislation, they are going to drive companies/money
right out of Asheville (brewing, tourism), Charlotte (finance/finance tech),
and Raleigh/Durham/Chapel Hill (software R&D and biotech).

PayPal isn't the first news. NC lost a startup incubator that was going to
start a local presence already. There is more to this, and it's going to end
the governors' national political ambitions as well has harm the economy of NC
for decades.

edit: if it doesn't get overturned (in its entirety) immediately when the
legislation gets back in session or through the courts, which is already in
progress.

~~~
Grishnakh
Well, the people of NC are getting exactly what they deserve. They voted for
this.

And spare me the whining about gerrymandering. The Governor is elected by
everyone in the state; gerrymandering has no effect on that election. If this
were really an issue of gerrymandering, we would have seen a crappy bill
passed by the Legislature, and sent to the governor, and promptly vetoed
because the governor more closely represents the average people in the state.
That didn't happen.

~~~
JeremyNT
There are two NCs.

One is currently in power; the rural, poor, uneducated.

The other is more modern. We live in cities and we want our homes to be good
places to live for all people.

You can view maps of this state and how it votes, and the places this law will
negatively impact (places where modern industry might have otherwise come) did
_not_ vote for this.

There is a war here: rural versus urban. The rural counties are in control and
they siphon off tax revenues from the cities. They strip the cities of any
local autonomy (not just in this issue) both fiscally and socially.

You can say "the people voted for this" but the people who voted for it are
not negatively impacted by it (except that there will be less tax revenue in
the cities they can siphon off of).

I'd point out that California has had first hand experience in this regard as
well - with Proposition 8. The happy ending to that story defied the will of
the Californian people.

Lament the laws of NC, but don't paint us all with the same brush.

~~~
Grishnakh
The problem is that you're all part of the same State, so your votes are all
equally counted (more or less; for Governor, they are). So I _have_ to paint
you all with the same brush: that's just the way the system is set up. Sorry.
I do realize (as should anyone) that not everyone in any given State is the
same, and that every state has different regions where people think
differently. This rural vs. urban fight isn't confined to NC, it's happening
in _most_ states now. (Maybe not Wyoming or Montana...)

But you had to realize before moving to NC that that state was like that. Like
every Southern state which votes "red" in the Presidential elections, there's
a large number of conservatives there, and the conservatives in the South tend
to be even more religious than the average conservative. So I don't think it's
quite fair to move to urban NC and then complain about the rural voters giving
you shitty laws: there was never any indication that this state, overall,
voted more progressively. If you want a state that really is more progressive
overall, you have to go someplace like New York or Massachusetts or
Connecticut or Washington (state). But of course, the cost of living isn't as
low in places like that as it is in the South; that's the price you pay.

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stblack
This is the first time I have ever read news that reflects PayPal in a
positive light.

Never thought I would ever write these words: way to go, PayPal!

~~~
gist
I view it as dangerous actually.

That is corporations with money, power and lawyers determining and overriding
voters in yet another way. Doesn't matter how you see this particular issue.
The next time it could go in another direction. [1]

[1] Live by the sword, die by the sword.

~~~
oliwarner
Overriding? They're not writing the law here, they're going where the best
laws are (or where the worst aren't). NC gets to keep its shitty laws, PayPal
just won't be part of it.

What's your alternative here?

~~~
gist
No this is a bit different. They are publicly announcing it in a way that says
"we don't approve and here is your punishment for taking this route".

Not to mention what about the harm that comes to the citizens who would have
held those jobs as well as the other economic impact of the decision? All to
citizens who might not have had a say in choosing this outcome?

I won't even get into the impact on stockholders who buy the stock to, in
general, make money with their investments not for social issues.

~~~
Avenger42
> I won't even get into the impact on stockholders who buy the stock to, in
> general, make money with their investments not for social issues.

Several years ago, in response to a request that Apple commit to only agree to
measures that wouldn't impact the bottom line, Tim Cook told an activist
investor "If you want me to do things only for ROI reasons, you should get out
of this stock." (It was in response to a question about Apple's environmental
stance, but Tim likened it to a request to ignore accessibility issues.)

If I disagree with Paypal's disagreement, I'm free to withdraw my investment
and go to a company that will ignore social issues.

~~~
gist
Apple is in a unique position to do that because of the cash that they are
throwing off now and their popularity. That was not always the case with Apple
(as you are aware) and also is not typically the case with your average
corporation. When you are riding high there are many things you can get away
with.

> If I disagree with Paypal's disagreement, I'm free to withdraw my investment
> and go to a company that will ignore social issues.

If you are a long term investor and if the stock is not trading at a good
point for you that may not be possible. Let's assume you have a large position
in the stock and it has lost money since you bought it as only one example.

~~~
WJW
You are confusing impossible with undesirable. You care about the money more
than you care about the social values espoused by the company. I'm not saying
that that is wrong, but if you feel incredibly strongly about something then
taking the loss may be preferable to violating your core beliefs.

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mc32
Great political move on PayPals part. And good social move to put pressure on
the politics of NC. But... This is mostly for show. If they really meant it
they would not do business in Uganda, DRC, Kazakhstan, etc. places where it's
de jure illegal to be out as LGBT.

So, while the side effect of their PR is good, it's more or less a side effect
of PR for them. I'll believe their intentions when the move out of all places
which have medieval anti LGBT laws.

~~~
caseysoftware
Exactly, it's virtue signaling.

This week, it's fashionable to attack and punish North Carolina. Next week, it
will be somewhere else, probably also in the US.

But Paypal will never cease business in Saudi Arabia or anywhere in the Muslim
world where the government executes gay people.

We shouldn't celebrate or support people "standing for their beliefs" when
they're not actually risking anything.

~~~
daj40
I wouldn't say they're risking nothing. Sure, they're not shutting down
existing offices and removing themselves from markets, but they probably
walked away from money they wont get back. I'm sure there were legal fees,
plus people they might have already begun to recruit. So yes, its not a large
risk, but its not like it didn't come at a loss for them.

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alistproducer2
Good, I hope more companies follow. I understand some people's reservations
with how fast the cultural landscape is changing. The biggest problem I have
is underhanded tactics, asinine euphemisms, and feigned naiveté by the people
trying to pass these laws. If you truly feel you are on the right side, why
try (so feebly) to hide your intentions?

You are either a brave culture warrior fighting for what's right or you're a
cowardly bigot. You can't be both.

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iends
Too bad the city of Charlotte was the city that passed the law in the first
place. So you're taking a stand against NC by hurting Charlotte who was just
screwed over by the state gov too.

~~~
Grishnakh
Sounds like Charlotte needs to start some kind of war with the state
government. Maybe they should secede and start a new state.

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throwaway5752
I am bummed this went off the front page (presumably flagging/downvoting
because of people's political disagreements).

* this effects Y Combinator [https://ei.ncsu.edu/y-combinator/](https://ei.ncsu.edu/y-combinator/)

* it effects Google Ventures: [http://recode.net/2016/04/01/google-ventures-north-carolina-...](http://recode.net/2016/04/01/google-ventures-north-carolina-hb2-ban/)

* There are local incubators and less formal groups of local startups against it.

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daj40
This was NC's Commerce Secretary's response. Not very well thought through.

[http://www.bizjournals.com/triangle/news/2016/04/05/n-ccomme...](http://www.bizjournals.com/triangle/news/2016/04/05/n-ccommerce-
secretary-doesnt-foresee-economic.html)

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topbanana
Great - if only PayPal cared as much for its customers as its employees

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pklausler
Some behavior is its own punishment. What did NC expect, an influx of tech
businesses drawn to crazy hateful laws?

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grej
Is this the same PayPal that does business with more than 20 countries where
homosexuality is illegal, including 5 where it's punishable by death?

The NC law is bad but this from PayPal is hypocrisy of the highest order.

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funkonaut
So will PayPal shut down their office in India? Doubt it.

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draw_down
Elections have consequences, as they say.

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joshuaheard
The law requires men to use the men's room, and women to use the women's room.
I don't see the problem with that. If it's really an issue, why can't PayPal
just put a third bathroom in its facility for any gender?

~~~
natrius
What is a man?

------
zeveb
Absolutely shameful for PayPal. This is not about equality and inclusion, but
rather about using government violence to force people to support that which
they oppose.

A black baker should not be required to bake a cake for the KKK; a homosexual
florist should not be required to provide flowers to the Westboro Baptist
Church; neither should a Christian baker or florist or software developer be
forced to employ his art and skill in service of something which he opposes,
and which opposes his belief system.

~~~
throwaway5752
That would be interesting if it were _in any way_ relevant to what HB2 were
about.

* it overturns a local law regarding who can use a bathroom, and removes the ability for anyone but the state to legislate that (takes power away from cities and counties)

* it removes the ability of city and counties to enforce hiring standards on government contractors (minimum wage, discrimination practices, safety standards) in any way whatsoever.

* it effectively undoes the state employment discrimination laws for all classes of employees. You have to file discrimination charges in federal courts (of which their are fewer, have higher filing fees, and shorter windows to file under federal law).

Since you seem generally ignorant of the law, this is a good explanation
:[http://www.charlotteobserver.com/news/politics-
government/ar...](http://www.charlotteobserver.com/news/politics-
government/article68401147.html)

It is particularly deplorable that they demonized transsexuals to pass the
less popular/otherwise more difficult to pass portions of the bill. It was
clearly just a way of threatening people in primaries if they didn't run
against the bill that was passed in a highly unusual emergency session.

But... assuming you know all this now, what you propose is shameful. PayPal is
under no obligation to 1) not have ethics/standards at a corporate level or 2)
hire people and open facilities in a state it doesn't want to do business in.
The bakers/florists can do whatever they want (and could before/after this
bill), but they cannot benefit from the payroll taxes collected by NC from the
PayPal employees that will now be hired elsewhere.

Shame on you for either not thinking about your argument or being dishonest.
It's an important issue and should be distracted from/intentionally
obfuscated.

~~~
alistproducer2
It's pretty clear the OP is a troll, but at least we got your enlightening
response from it. The law is even more distasteful than I knew.

~~~
Grishnakh
Yeah, no kidding about the enlightening response. This guy has the worst
username ever ("throwaway5752"); he's one of the best and most informative
posters I've ever seen here.

~~~
throwaway5752
Thanks :)

It was throwaway at first, but I've grown fond of it.

~~~
aYsY4dDQ2NrcNzA
Easily the worst username.

