
Deep Intellect: Inside the mind of the octopus - Snail_Commando
http://www.orionmagazine.org/index.php/articles/article/6474/
======
Udo
The fact that relatively high intelligence has arisen from many architectures
multiple times on this planet bodes well for the frequency of intelligent life
on exoplanets.

Even today, there are still biologists who assert the formation of intelligent
life is tightly coupled to our specific brand of brain and should hence be
considered a huge accident. Yet we see the formation of minds in a lot of
places, and they can be almost arbitrarily far removed from the human brain.

The octopus is a great example for a radically different neurological
substrate. Given enough time and a little bit of luck, some funghi too might
evolve a mind of their own as Fuligo Septica already shows some capacity for
problem-solving behavior.

The argument that human-like intelligence is again another unlikely step
discards the myriad of social animals with advanced problem solving
capabilities, some of which are even tool users, and some of which have actual
languages and cultures. A lot of these have come onto the stage very
independently from us, having sprung from far removed genetics - and yet they
have enough in common with us that should make us recognize the frequency of
species with minds might indeed be high wherever life takes hold.

~~~
hoggle
"It is of interest to note that while some dolphins are reported to have
learned English (up to fifty words used in correct context) [even higher since
Sagan died] no human being has been reported to have learned dolphinese."

~ Carl Sagan

~~~
mrfusion
I've always wondered how we figure we'd communicate with aliens someday, or
decode a future SETI message, if we can't even decode the language of a
dolphins.

~~~
RogerL
Dolphins are not (so far as we know) actively trying to teach us their
language. I would be exuberant to be corrected on this, but to my knowledge a
dolphin has never put a fish in a human's hands and cried 'kreeeikaaa' to try
to teach us the word. Whereas we do that endlessly with the dolphins, which is
why they have learned a bit of our language.

I suspect (with no proof) that a human-level intelligence, bent on
communicating, would have the intelligence to perform experiments and then
structure a learning environment for the other life form to learn its
language.

~~~
xerophtye
> Dolphins are not (so far as we know) actively trying to teach us their
> language.

Exactly. Cats actively try to teach us their language and you can ask any cat
owner, he or she would be very fluent in their cat's language.

~~~
xerophtye
Hey, why the downvote? It wasn't just a witty remark, i was serious. I find it
rather fascinating that in the case of pets, both parties mutually form a
method of communication. And this method isn't exactly part of either species'
natural language. Humans train pets to respond to certain gestures/words and
the pet adopts certain behaviors which have the sole purpose of communicating
a need or intention or request to the owner. I think it says something abuot
the intelligence of BOTH species

~~~
Derpdiherp
There is some interesting behaviour so far as cat communication with humans.
Cats will not meow to other cats unless it's a kitten / mother situation.
Meowing with humans is pretty unique.

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cat_communication#Meow](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cat_communication#Meow)

~~~
xerophtye
Wow, good point. Cats usually have this entirely different set of vocal and
bodily language when communicating with other cats. Isn't that a sign of
higher intelligence? To be able to learn multiple languages. Even if each is
fairly small, it's rather fascinating ability to be able to classify your
total known language into two distinct sets and knowing which set to use with
whom

------
GotAnyMegadeth
I once read about a lab that was doing research on various sea creatures, but
primarily crabs. The experiment involved having 100s of a certain type of
crab. Every day the crabs were counted, and each day there was quite a few
completely missing. The head researcher suspected one of the lab assistants
was stealing and selling the crabs, so they set up a camera to watch the lab
overnight. It turned out that it wasn't one of the assistants, but instead the
lab's octopus. Every night it was waiting until everyone went home, then
taking the lid off it's tank, crawling several meters across the floor,
opening the lid of the crab tank, eating a few crabs and then crawling back,
remembering to replace the lids of both tanks.

~~~
yesbabyyes
Fascinating! Is this the video?

[http://video.nationalgeographic.com/video/wd-
ep3-octothief](http://video.nationalgeographic.com/video/wd-ep3-octothief)

------
taliesinb
One day we will use computers to bridge the human mental and social worlds
with those of even quite alien creatures like the pacific octopus.

That will be the dawning of an age of widespread empathy with our animals
brethren, along with a wave of horror and shame at our previous treatment of
them.

Long before that, though, we'll enjoy immersive VR recordings from the
viewpoint of other creatures. I wouldn't be surprised if Jim Cameron was
involved in bringing such things to a wide audience.

But even with today's technology this recording from an eagle's PoV is a great
example of how mesmerizing the alien worlds of our animal relatives can be:
[http://youtu.be/G3QrhdfLCO8](http://youtu.be/G3QrhdfLCO8)

~~~
_pmf_
> That will be the dawning of an age of widespread empathy with our animals
> brethren, along with a wave of horror and shame at our previous treatment of
> them.

Because that worked so well with regard to fellow humans.

~~~
vanwesson
The world is less violent than ever. The average person's chances of coming to
a violent end have been declining for a while:

[http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/10/22/world-less-
violent-...](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/10/22/world-less-violent-
stats_n_1026723.html)

Much of the common violence and atrocities of the past when portrayed in
movies and other forms of entertainment are shocking and far removed from the
every day experience. See the most recent US Academy Award "Best Picture"
winner for an example.

~~~
ekianjo
> Much of the common violence and atrocities of the past when portrayed in
> movies and other forms of entertainment

To be fair, they are never portrayed in a very realistic way. Or at least not
in a way in which you care about the characters dying on screen.

As to the claim of "less violence", let's rather say "violence in number is
decreasing", but there are still very violent AND cruel acts being carried as
we speak in many parts of the world. And let's not forget there are still many
places as well where people are enslaved - the fact that these behaviors are
resilient does not say lots of good things about humanity.

~~~
gknoy
> To be fair, they are never portrayed in a very realistic way. Or at least
> not in a way in which you care about the characters dying on screen.

I'm not sure I agree. Usually they are not, but perhaps you might re-watch
Saving Private Ryan. It's not the only gory war movie, but it does a
remarkable job of showcasing horrific things we humans do to each other. The
knife fight scene is especially disturbing.

"The Tudors" also had some pretty cruel punishments, though often it's not
carried off on-screen. Even when the people being tortured are not
protagonists, it's hard not to empathize in the "oh god that's just not right"
way.

You make a good point though about there still being terrible things going on
in other parts of the globe.

------
iandanforth
I will be happy when people stop referring to intelligence as a binary state.
My dog is intelligent, mice are intelligent, nematodes are intelligent. The
ability to interact with and adapt to the environment is present in all of
these creatures. The degree to which something is intelligent is something we
need a much richer vocabulary for. I am sad to say it but this is most clearly
put in comic form ([http://www.smbc-
comics.com/index.php?id=2867#comic](http://www.smbc-
comics.com/index.php?id=2867#comic))

~~~
kfnn
Here's one kind of classification:
[http://billkerr2.blogspot.com/2006/07/dennetts-
creatures.htm...](http://billkerr2.blogspot.com/2006/07/dennetts-
creatures.html)

------
ekianjo
Excellent article, I liked this part:

> One octopus Mather was watching had just returned home and was cleaning the
> front of the den with its arms. Then, suddenly, it left the den, crawled a
> meter away, picked up one particular rock and placed the rock in front of
> the den. Two minutes later, the octopus ventured forth to select a second
> rock. Then it chose a third. Attaching suckers to all the rocks, the octopus
> carried the load home, slid through the den opening, and carefully arranged
> the three objects in front. Then it went to sleep. What the octopus was
> thinking seemed obvious: “Three rocks are enough. Good night!”

~~~
pavel_lishin
It seems weird to say, "Well obviously this is what this _alien intellect_ was
thinking".

~~~
ekianjo
That's the way we perceive things. But the article mentions many times that we
probably have no idea what is the consciousness level of the Octopus, since it
has more neurons in its arms than in its central brain.

------
tzs
We are fortunate that octopuses do not live long (hence limiting how much
knowledge an individual octopus can accumulate to personal experience) and
that they do not raise their young (and hence do not get a chance to pass
knowledge to the next generation).

If not for those factors, I suspect that Mankind would only have whatever
access to the oceans that the octopuses decided to allow us.

~~~
jessaustin
What a cool image! I wonder if "civilized" octopi would concentrate their war-
making on us, or perhaps on each other?

In any case, let's not let them figure out how scuba gear works...

------
Niten
> “Only intelligent animals play—animals like crows and chimps, dogs and
> humans.”

Err, I'm barely knowledgeable in this field (so maybe someone can point out
something that I'm missing), but I have to nitpick that this strikes me as
poor reasoning. Off the top of my head, juvenile squirrels are known to
play[1], along with many other species which we would consider less
intelligent than cephalopods or even dogs. This just seems like an odd
assertion to come from an expert biologist.

[1]
[http://dx.doi.org/10.1016/j.anbehav.2003.06.024](http://dx.doi.org/10.1016/j.anbehav.2003.06.024)

Really interesting article, though.

------
Theodores
Sometimes 'text only' trumps an article that has pictures and moving video. It
is good to have one's imagination work overtime rather than have everything
'spelt out' with imagery.

At one moment I was imagining an octopus bigger than myself, able to drag me
into a tank and maybe eat me whole. The next moment I was learning of an
octopus able to fit inside a beer bottle (note to self: be careful what one
picks up when scuba diving!).

I feel I might actually remember more about the life of the octopus from
having read this article and having to engage my imagination than what I might
have learned had I sat through some nature programme on TV. Plus it takes less
time to read than it does to endure a programme. I also now know things I
don't know, such as what it is to make eye contact with an octopus, something
that a TV programme could go some way to describe.

Aside from the 'wow, intelligence', why is it that those of us with spines
lack any 'computing power' in things like our arms? Are there any common sense
reasons?

~~~
bjeanes
> Aside from the 'wow, intelligence', why is it that those of us with spines
> lack any 'computing power' in things like our arms? Are there any common
> sense reasons?

I wonder if the fact that we can't grow them back is a factor. I could imagine
that this would make it hard for us to evolve any sort of appendage
intelligence that was important to our function.

------
kentosi
For any pedants who cringed reading "octopuses" instead of "octopi", here's
the wiki section to reassure that this is actually correct:

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Octopus#Etymology_and_pluraliza...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Octopus#Etymology_and_pluralization)

Other sources through Google also confirm this.

~~~
quotient
We should note that this is for the worst kind of pedant only: the wrong kind.
It's also important to note that the most correct of all forms (though also
more archaic) is _octopodes_.

~~~
oska
I noticed the author used _octopodan_. First time I think I've seen that word.

> But she was very significant to me, both as an individual and as a
> representative from her octopodan world.

~~~
jonchang
It's a common adjective formation. Octopoda -> octopodan, compare to Mollusca
-> molluscan.

------
gus_massa
> _Biologist have long noted the similarities between the eyes of an octopus
> and the eyes of a human._

> _Scientists are currently debating whether we and octopuses evolved eyes
> separately, or whether a common ancestor had the makings of the eye._

This is not under debate. This is one of the classical examples of convergent
evolution. From:
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convergent_evolution#Eyes](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convergent_evolution#Eyes)

> _One of the most well-known examples of convergent evolution is the camera
> eye of cephalopods (e.g., squid), vertebrates (e.g., mammals) and cnidaria
> (e.g., box jellies).[22] Their last common ancestor had at most a very
> simple photoreceptive spot, but a range of processes led to the progressive
> refinement of this structure to the advanced camera eye — with one subtle
> difference: The cephalopod eye is "wired" in the opposite direction, with
> blood and nerve vessels entering from the back of the retina, rather than
> the front as in vertebrates.[8] The similarity of the structures in other
> respects, despite the complex nature of the organ, illustrates how there are
> some biological challenges (e.g. vision) that have an optimal solution._

More info:
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cephalopod_eye](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cephalopod_eye)

------
yonibot
I took a scuba diving course with an instructor who formerly worked as a diver
with a local aquarium, and he related to us that the aquarium had to replace
their octopus population every few weeks because they would keep dying of
boredom, so to speak. They would put the food in hard-to-open enclosures, but
it just wasn't enough. Octopuses need to be challenged and engaged. It gave us
food for thought about whether we should be keeping creatures with such a
powerful intellect in captivity.

------
keypusher
Fascinating. I am particularly intrigued by the separate evolution of their
intelligence and neurons in their arms. A different type of consciousness
indeed, I wonder if it is even possible to comprehend what their experience of
the world might be like.

~~~
greenyoda
The independent nervous system in an octopus' arm (which continues to operate
after an arm has been severed) reminded me of the independent nervous system
in the human gut:

 _" The enteric nervous system has been described as a 'second brain' for
several reasons. The enteric nervous system can operate autonomously. It
normally communicates with the central nervous system (CNS) through the
parasympathetic (e.g., via the vagus nerve) and sympathetic (e.g., via the
prevertebral ganglia) nervous systems. However, vertebrate studies show that
when the vagus nerve is severed, the enteric nervous system continues to
function."_[1]

It's remarkable how two nervous systems that evolved separately share this
kind of similarity.

[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enteric_nervous_system#Complex...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enteric_nervous_system#Complexity)

------
civilian
I've read a ton of Arthur C. Clarke so I'm really interested in intelligence
uplift of other species.

How much smarter could octopi be if they didn't die when they mated? Or if
they had lifespans 10 times longer than they do now?

What if we could train octopi to hunt with humans? Similar to how thousands of
years of hunting with wolves has produced the dog, could we breed octopi that
help human marine hunters?

------
rquantz
My girlfriend was delighted to learn about how intelligent octopuses are
today. She was reading an article about whether they can get concussions --
I'll see if I can get it from her.

What a strange coincidence to find this on the front page of HN a few hours
later.

~~~
influx
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baader-
Meinhof_phenomenon#Frequ...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baader-
Meinhof_phenomenon#Frequency_illusion)

------
rurounijones
I have always loved octopuses from hearing stories about their intelligence.

Reading about the antics of some of these octopuses in this article was
surprisingly hilarious.

------
wazoox
In the great 1957 scifi novel "Niourk" [1], men have (mostly) abandoned Earth,
the oceans dried away and octopi became larger, cleverer and are becoming the
dominant species. Spoiler alert: don't look at the wikipedia page in case you
plan to read the book :)

[1] [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niourk](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niourk)

------
reshambabble
I love the comparison of the octopus with a smart alien. We might not
completely understand them, but something about them tells us they are
intelligent beings.

------
thisjepisje
We should give octopi the gift of technology and let them overtake the
underwater world. Just like in 2001.

