

John Gruber takes 'The Talk Show' to Mule Radio - lleims
http://daringfireball.net/linked/2012/05/18/the-talk-show

======
siglesias
Trying hard to see the rationale behind this split. Gruber's emphasis has
always been on "quality," "being the best," and "being right" in everything he
does. Thus the only light through which I can see this decision is his belief
that the show is better without Dan. Their relationship throughout The Talk
Show has had its tumultuous moments: in early episodes, Benjamin's using an
Android phone drew Gruber's ire, and then later there was animosity when
Benjamin would show up for the Bond episodes unprepared. Gruber would accuse
Dan of "yeah yeahing" his co-hosts and contributing little in the way of
earnest dissent.

On the other hand, I always had the sense that Benjamin regarded Gruber as a
kneejerk Apple apologist, and this too could not have helped their
relationship.

But their differences led to the show's magic. Their contrasting styles would
turn the show into a focused, intimate meditation on Gruber's thoughts on
industry (plus side interests of baseball, Kubrick, etc.), often serving as a
preview of what written work would be to come on Daring Fireball. While it can
come across as aloofness, Dan has the passive ability to subtly guide the
conversation and give it some sense of structure, and he's great at knowing
when to let the other person speak. There were also incredibly funny moments
of East Coast camaraderie that would keep the side topics interesting and
lively.

It seems that Gruber has taken all of this for granted in deciding his show is
better without Benjamin. Quite sad.

------
TwistedWeasel
I'm pretty disappointed with this move. I was getting a little tired of the
Talk Show on 5By5 but it was still enjoyable because Dan brought humor and
structure to the show.

I remember when Let's Make Mistakes split off and formed a new podcast network
it felt odd to me at the time, like they used 5By5 to get some initial
audience and then took them for themselves. For some reason it fit with the
impression I get that Mike Monteiro is an asshole.

With this move I am done with the Talk Show. I just dont care any more.

~~~
jkahn
This. Gruber's flippant attitude has been bringing the Talk Show down for the
past few months. Dan is what holds it together. These days, Hypercritical is
by far the best podcast I listen to.

It's not worth listening to without Dan Benjamin.

~~~
stuntmouse
Agreed on Hypercritical being the stronger show now. It's also something that
ages better, so that old episodes are still informative.

~~~
pooriaazimi
Absolutely. After months of being constantly busy, finally I had a few days to
myself and listened to first episodes of Hypercritical (I got on aboard from
episode 30) and they are really informative. Even those that are about really
old events (like iPhone 5 predictions) are really insightful.

------
awolf
Shame on you John Gruber.

Seriously though, it's John's show and he's free to take it to another
network. I just _really_ hope that this transition was done in a respectful
manner and that there isn't bad blood between 5by5 and Mule.

A little background: Let's Make Mistakes, Mule Radio's main show, got started
with 5by5's help. Let's Make Mistakes was a 5by5 network show for it's first
year of existence. It garnered all of the listenership and cross promotion
that comes with being part of 5by5. After a year of getting traction, Mule
split the show off into its own podcasting network, essentially becoming a
competitor to 5by5. If Mule now aggressively poached The Talk Show from 5by5
then it was certainly a dick move.

Of course, we don't have all the details and this is just speculation. So
again, I hope this was done in a way that respected Dan and 5by5.

~~~
scheeko
I don't know if the transition was respectful in what regards Dan, but it sure
was not respectful towards the listeners.

As you, I also feel he's free to move his show wherever he wants, but I also
thing he owes his listeners an explanation, or at least a comment. 5by5 was
the house we visited to listen to John (with Dan) and we show up and he's not
there. A mere link on his website, with no explanation, is, in my opinion,
rather distasteful. I haven't heard the new episode until the end, so I don't
know if he makes any comment at the end. But certainly there's no explanation
or introduction. Even if they parted ways in an unfriendly fashion, he still
owes a lot to Benjamin.

Finally, he's an awful Sponsor message reader. Poor Piezo.

~~~
alwillis
As much as like Gruber, hearing him read Piezo’s sponsor message was kind of
painful.

------
olog-hai
Say what you will about Mike Arrington fueling lots of silly drama, but at
least when something like this happens he's open about it and we get to hear
his side of the story. By remaining tight-lipped, Dan's inviting lots of
speculation. Which is worse?

Last fall, Dan, John Siracusa, Merlin, and Marco were enchanted by his new
producer, Faith Korpi. A couple of months later she disappeared. Jake Erickson
wrote the following on Quora: "She and Dan had a falling out. She was fired
from 5by5, but was given Geek Friday back as a concession to Dan's other
hosts. They are not speaking any more."

The fact that within the span of a few months Dan lost Let's Make Mistakes,
The Talk Show, and the producer that his other hosts stuck up for strongly
hints that there is something about Dan's off-air personality that rubs people
the wrong way.

~~~
alwillis
Thanks for clearing that up. It seemed weird that after making such a big deal
about hiring Faith, Dan didn't say anything after she was clearly gone. I
thought she added a lot to 5by5.

------
pohl
This is a shame, because I think that Dan Benjamin is a funny guy and good
host. It took me a while to realize it. I initially came to 5by5 for Siracusa,
Dediu, Gruber and Arment (in that order) but the longer I listen the more I
appreciate Dan.

Just last week I was loving how Dan will say something outrageous, framed as a
casual, factual statement about the co-host, to elicit a reaction. ("You just
sit around in your underwear while you're doing this podcast." - not an actual
quote, I'm just characterizing). Of everybody else, Gruber responded with the
least appreciation of Dan's humor.

Oh well, maybe the new chemistry will be good too.

~~~
timmins
There are some moments between Mann and Benjamin that are so funny that I have
to pause, finish laughing and resume.

It's always when they cycle through "I think you mean.." and "No, you're
probably thinking..."

~~~
pooriaazimi
What are Mann's episodes about? I tried to listen a few times but I never
fully understood what it was about and got confused... Could you give me a few
pointers?!

~~~
pacomerh
This 5by5 drawing sums it up, <http://goo.gl/6kXwj> It's a good network
overall, Merlin's show is mostly funny, he can touch on interesting topics
about productivity, but mostly his character is very peculiar.

~~~
pooriaazimi
:) I can almost _hear_ Siracusa saying that!

Who's the guy in the middle left?

 _(I think the discussion on this submission is one of the most
intellectually-uninteresting HN discussions ever!)_

~~~
pacomerh
Guy on the middle left is Zeldman

------
adamschoales
Here's the thing. I loved the Talk Show for the longest time, but even
recently noticed that things were starting to... go downhill. Never would have
guessed it was between the hosts but the magic wasn't there anymore. It seemed
more like a chore. I missed the Bond stuff a lot, and was looking forward to
the potential next movie club but it never happened. And then things just
seemed to become more and more pauses and more and more wasted hours.

Another thing: Gruber's a terrible host. Don't get me wrong, I think the man
is great, his blog fantastic, a magnificent writer, and a really smart guy.
But his constant pauses, breaks, and seeming unwillingness to be on a show
doesn't make for good listening. Which is why Dan was KEY to the show. Having
him to help guide the conversation, reel Gruber back in, and most importantly,
feed him the softballs so Gruber could knock them out of the park was KEY to
the success of the show.

I just don't understand how Gruber can expect to do the show without him. Now
maybe if part of this was because of bad blood, and Gruber is joined by his
friends it won't matter, he will WANT to talk to them and it wont be an issue.
But I don't know.

All in all, I'm not sure I'm going to keep listening. Gruber & Friends only
interests me if the friends are the aforementioned Lonely Sandwich, or Merlin,
or other guys who's shows and insight I've come to know and love.

As for the reasoning? Your guess is as good as mine, and I think people are
right in assuming it's bad blood otherwise an official statement should have
come from someone. To be fair, as respect to the fans and people who listen
one, if not both should have said something (Leo Laporte is very open when his
shows/hosts move on) because it's the professional thing to do. If the split
is personal not professional the silence makes more sense. That said, these
guys make themselves out to be professional so even if it _was_ personal they
should still have come out an said something (again, see Laporte).

One thing is for certain. Listen to Dan's back and forth with hosts like
Siracusa, Dalrymple, and of course Merlin Mann. Merlin _signs off_ with an "I
Love You" and you can tell there's a genuine friendship amongst that
professional relationship. Gruber and Dan never had that, so maybe its for the
best they go their separate ways.

But for both to say nothing to anyone is a big Screw You to the fans (note I
only used screw to be polite, I would have opted for the harsher option), and
doesn't leave me wanting to hear Talk Show 3.0.

I'll still read Daring Fireball religiously though.

------
santosaa
I had noticed in the past weeks that Gruber wasn't writing or posting
interesting stuff as much as before, Daring Fireball started to looked more
like "curated" advertising for apps (paid or not paid, not sure about it); and
it really is getting boring... and now you come up with this?. The sudden, and
unexpected, move of one of the most beloved podcasts in the world (a big part
thanks to Dan) without a word?

Gruber, you OWE an explanation to your readers, period!.

As Jim Dalrymple commented in his post
([http://www.loopinsight.com/2012/05/17/blogging-is-not-a-
thin...](http://www.loopinsight.com/2012/05/17/blogging-is-not-a-thing-its-an-
attitude/)) :

"Blogging is also about trust. If you’re readers know that you are writing
from your heart, they will listen. They will engage you, and in the process
you will learn something new. That, in turn, will help shape your opinions.

Blogging doesn’t have an agenda, other than expressing your true thoughts on a
subject."

That trust just started to crumble..

------
runjake
I don't know what happened here, but I agree with some of the other commenters
that Dan really helped make this show what it is. He kept John focused and
provided his own great input.

To be honest, I'll probably not follow The Talk Show anymore, and in my mind,
the show was far from making or breaking 5by5.

------
lukeman
So Mule now has The Talk Show and its new iOS app is really a reskinned 5by5
app that never was released (check inside the app bundle and you'll see the
class prefix is FBF and the 5by5 logo is even in there—presumably unused).

Nerd drama.

edit: here's a screengrab of the Mule Radio app bundle if you're curious:
<http://cl.ly/1E240C0C272c2R3L2N19>

~~~
dlpasco
Hi there, I'm Dan, CEO of Black Pixel. I'd like to clear the air on this
issue.

The application and the source code in question belongs to Black Pixel. We
designed and developed the application in-house, at our own expense, and were
going to license the binary for free, non-exclusive use on the 5by5 network,
but that deal didn't work out.

Quite some time later, we got to know the folks at Mule Radio, and felt like
there might be a good opportunity for our work to see the light of day. So we
discussed things with them and licensed the binaries to them for use on their
show.

So, to be clear, this app belongs to Black Pixel. We've never received a dime
of money for it from anyone, because we wanted to have complete creative
control over the product. We're happy that our app has found a home and are
donating our time to support and add new features to the application as time
goes on.

We hope you enjoy it.

-Daniel Pasco, CEO Black Pixel

~~~
chmars
@dlpasco:

You have never received a dime of money for your app. So did you donate your
app to the Mule Radio Network?

I had never heard of Black Pixel before. Now I know that you (or at least one
of your developers) is rather of the lazy kind. Comm'on, renaming 5by5 to mule
should have been a no-brainer!

~~~
jimray
Jim here, I work at Mule Design, host a show on Mule Radio and had the
pleasure of working with the fine folks at Black Pixel on the app.

> I had never heard of Black Pixel before. Now I know that you (or at least
> one of your developers) is rather of the lazy kind.

You know what? It was a bug. Bugs happen. We actually discovered it a few days
ago but, the app store being what it is, we couldn't get it swapped out in
time. We have nothing but the highest confidence in Black Pixel and would jump
at the opportunity to work with them again.

No one involved in this is being lazy and your insinuation is not only wrong
and rude it's completely unnecessary.

~~~
chmars
Duly noted, thank you.

------
mshafrir
Awkward goodbye from John to Dan on the last show:
<http://dl.dropbox.com/u/2443832/Screenshots/Marker%201.m4a>

------
ruswick
Also seems a bit odd that Dan announced another big show today.

[http://blog.5by5.tv/2012/5/18/coming-soon-big-week-with-
dan-...](http://blog.5by5.tv/2012/5/18/coming-soon-big-week-with-dan-benjamin)

Probably coincidental, but TTH was a tent pole show, and Big Week appears to
be one as well.

I also think that bringing in Dalrymple might have made 5by5 feel too crowded.
To my knowledge, of the 5 or so major podcasts on 5by5, Talk Show was the only
one hosted by a blogger. (Though I'm hesitant to call John a blogger because
he rarely writes original content. 95% of DF is links or quotes with one
sentence of analysis, but that's neither here nor there) Dalrymple was only
the second blogger, and Gruber must have felt that Jim was stealing his
thunder.

Frankly, I think it's for the best. The Talk Show has been going down hill,
and can't hold a candle to B&A or Hypercritical.

~~~
barsky
Interestingly, the new show (Big Week) has a color scheme based on the Talk
Show's.

------
chucknelson
This is sad news. Dan was the one who balanced Gruber's cockiness. Oh well,
though, 5by5 will be fine with its other good shows. Oh John Siracusa, please
don't leave!

~~~
TwistedWeasel
Hypercritical is by far my favorite podcast, it took the top spot on my
playlists from the Talk Show a long time ago. I get the impression Siracusa
does that podcast for fun, not profit and would never ditch Dan like Gruber
has.

------
dasil003
Wow, didn't see that coming. Just last episode Dan & John were talking about
reviving the movie review series with Hitchcock. I wonder if it has something
to do with bringing Dalrymple on full time on Amplified, or Dan's persistent
admonishment of Gruber's use of wifi during recording, or maybe Monteiro
poached him with a paycheck. Yeah I know it makes me a bit of a jackass to
speculate like a celebrity gossip writer, but this is infinitely more
interesting to me than real celebrities.

------
nathanclark
I imagine that this is money related. The Talk Show was one of the original
shows. 5by5 has grown a lot since then. Dan has put ton of work in to his
company. And it shows. Perhaps as a business 5by5 is doing much better now
then it was when it started out. Perhaps gruber was still operating under the
original agreement him and dan had when they first teamed up. Maybe gruber is
no longer satisfied with their agreement seeing how well the talk show
franchisee is doing.

This seemed more apparent when Dan teased him a bit for not wearing the 5by5
shirt. Seemed like a sore point. Dan left me with a small impression that
gruber what "phoning it in" by commenting on the fact that gruber didn't dress
up for the show. Dan, it's a radio show. Good luck guys.

It's fun to guess at these things.

------
cledet
I think this caught Dan by surprised. Dan got the Talk Show shirts made up and
he seem pretty excited when he announced them during the last two minutes of
episode 90. Gruber didn't seem to care at all.

I'm sure Mule offered Gruber a lot of money to bring the podcast to them. Got
to support the family right?

~~~
smparkes
Just more gossip, but the first thing that comes to mind whenever I think of
@Mike_FTW is "Fuck You, Pay Me". Which in principle isn't bad, but ...

~~~
TwistedWeasel
That's the big difference I see between Dan Benjamin and Mike Monteiro.

Dan is a professional and has my respect, where as Monteiro makes cheap vulgar
jokes. I know which attitude I prefer to support.

~~~
technoslut
You're not alone in this regard.

------
jsz0
It's funny how so people always assume there has to be horrible personal
conflicts behind these things. In my experience people mostly move on because
they think they have found a better opportunity for themselves. Hard to second
guess people's career moves.

------
Derbasti
Well, lets see how Gruber does without Dan. To be honest, they never seemed to
be a particularly good match to me.

------
cw4
People hate change. Worse, people hate surprising change.

Mike is mostly mocking the people upset with this on Twitter, but if you enjoy
a show made up of two people, people get annoyed when one party leaves with no
explanation.

Lots of people say "they don't OWE us an explanation". I disagree. People
invested in 5by5 through buying shirts, buying the app, listening to ads and
using their promo codes, and the time they spent listening and interacting
with the network. And when you sign off a show saying another one is coming,
and then switch networks and drop 1/2 of the show with no explanation, that's
rude.

The way this went down, there's two possibilities:

1\. Dan had no idea, which is why he got the shirts printed and TTS was still
on 5by5's recording schedule as of Gruber's announcement it moved to Mule.

2\. Dan was in on it, but had agreed with Gruber and Mule to keep it secret,
for whatever reason.

~~~
pooriaazimi
How could Dan Benjamin be on it? The poor guy created a new set of 'talk
show/5by5' t-shirts literally days ago (in time for WWDC) and was so happy
about it...

------
undoerer
An anonymous Quora user lays out some pretty compelling reasons that this is
all about money. Anyone else think they are perhaps not just idly speculating?
[http://www.quora.com/The-Talk-Show/Why-did-John-Grubers-
The-...](http://www.quora.com/The-Talk-Show/Why-did-John-Grubers-The-Talk-
Show-switch-podcast-networks)

~~~
Sonatine
I'd have to agree with you there - the content of the post, and the anonymity
of its author, do indeed make it seem like it's not someone just spitballing,
but someone "familiar with the situation".

------
dimensionmedia
According to @muleradio's twitter stream, Gruber approached them. No poaching.
Sounds like it was John's idea entirely.

~~~
dimensionmedia
here's the exact tweet:
<https://twitter.com/#!/MuleRadio/statuses/203567508660297728>

------
laconian
I can't say that I'll be updating my podcast client to follow his smug ass.

------
wjspoint
I know it's not fair or logical, but I can't help but think this entire deal
feels wrong because Mike embraces the dick role and Dan comes off as a great
guy.

------
edbloom
damn - that's a real shame. Listening to John and Dan shoot the breeze on any
range of topics is/was one of the highlights of the week (podcast highlights
anyway!). I'm assuming this wasn't a clean split given it was unannounced and
given the T-Shirts which were printed for WWDC as announced on TTS90. I
understand Dan and John have been good friends for a long time - hope this
doesn't kill their friendship.

------
jtchambliss
No doubt Dan is pissed, but holding back his anger because that's his nature.

The Talk Show was started by John and Dan in 2007. The website
(thetalkshow.net) is registered to Dan and was most likely coded by him as
well. Dan has just as much invested into The Talk Show as Gruber. It would've
been much classier to leave 5by5 and start an entire new show.

The Talk Show is Dan and John. Period.

------
hogepodge
Something to think about. This isn't the first time a show disappeared.
Remember when Geek Friday was good and Dan was co-hosting it with Faith? One
wonders what happened, any why Dan was made angry enough to suggest a truly
dismal co-host for Faith. Blame Gruber if you want, but I'm almost certain
that Dan had a part in this too.

~~~
FuzzyPuffin
There's a post above that explains this, but essentially Dan fired her as his
producer, and the other hosts rallied for her to get the show back.

I disagree that the show is bad, though. Jason's hilarious, despite his
terrible taste in movies. The two of them have great chemistry together.

------
ehed
As a long-time listener, I feel a peculiar closeness with the hosts, even
though I've never met either one. Having witnessed [the public part of] their
friendship evolve, it is sad to think that something may have happened that
soured it. Still waiting to see what Dan/5by5 will say, as the silence on
bigweek.co/twitter/5by5.tv has been uncomfortable, to say the least.

I still enjoy John's shows, but I agree with many others in this thread on
this point: a year ago, TTS was the podcast in my list that I'd drop any other
to listen to when a new one aired. Lately, that's become Hypercritical, which
always leaves me feeling like I learned something.

~~~
ehed
I just re listened to the last 5 minutes, and between the t-shirts that Dan
says John approved (which he denies) and the jokes at John's expense, he was
insulted. I'm sure there was more going on behind the scenes, but those two
things are clearly the last straw.

------
frou_dh
The number of shows on 5by5 based around "Apple/Something" was approaching
parody anyway. By my count, there are 5-6 remaining for your perusal.

I do like 5by5, and use Macs myself, but a toning down of the echo-chamber is
not all bad.

~~~
barredo
Indeed. I listened to Marco Arment, Gruber and Siracusa everyweek. And then
Horace Dediu every other week... but I got really tired and started skipping
parts or shows altogether because I didnt want to sit through listening the
same thing 4 times (ie: Apple v. Samsung, iOS5 launch, Lion launch, etc).

I think i learnt the most with Siracusa and Horace Dediu, but the show with
Merlin Mann is the most inspirational.

~~~
frou_dh
Back to Work is probably my favourite podcast! It's definitely not an "Apple
and stuff" show :)

~~~
reaganing
Yep, that's primarily why it's my favorite as well.

------
srikar_dr
I'm genuinely disappointed with this trasition. I don't know why Mr. John
Gruber and Mr. Dan Benjamin have shied away from giving a formal explanation
for this inexplicable split. And that is the thing that bugs me.

~~~
adamschoales
When professional relationships split, it's fairly easy and common to talk
about.

When personal relationships split, it's a very hard, emotional thing to talk
about, and people tend to shy away from discussing it.

And that's what has me worried, and most upset.

------
barredo
So, what happened to the 5by5 edition?

~~~
barredo
Of course they DO NOT owe us an explanation about what happened, but it will
be nice to hear something, just because we care about the show.

------
ulope
This incident also sheds a different light on another tidbit on talk show
history. In one of the earlier episodes of the 5by5 version Dan and John were
talking about how Dan's recommendation of "Silent Running" to John basically
ended the first run of the talk show. At the time I thought that was just a
joke. But after this I'm really wondering if that supposed friendship between
the two wasn't all that strong after all.

------
shawnl
I don't know why Gruber switched networks any more than the rest of you guys.

But for crying out loud, this is ridiculous. The Kremlinology going on here is
batshit insane! It's like reading the National Enquirer, only with less real
information!

Hell, it could be nothing more than Dan & John's schedules no longer syncing
up.

What a bunch of gossipy hens.

~~~
barredo
Gossip? Maybe

But when you have spent almost 2 hours a week listening to them, or even with
a donation. Well, you tend to care. And you want to know why something is not
like it was anymore. Lacking an official response... we'd want to fill the
blanks.

------
bwah
This is very interesting that this comes right after a pretty successful
launch of the 5by5 iOS app.

I think Gruber probably wanted a higher % and more money from it than Dan was
willing. Maybe even more than the other hosts?

Gruber and Dan's chemistry on the show was definitely on the decline since the
old Bond movie reviews, though.

------
jack2005
looks like Gruber has scrubbed the links to The Talk Show from Daring Fireball
(other than the links from today to the new show).

it's just a shame that John isn't respectful enough of his readers/listeners
to just admit what happened to break up his relationship with Dan.

~~~
dehowell
Not true. Links from daringfireball.net to older episodes of the Talk Show are
still intact:

<http://daringfireball.net/linked/2011/09/30/the-talk-show-61>

------
daniel_sim
Hard to tell if I'm biased or if this new format is as boring as it seems.
Will have to try again tomorrow. Got about 10 minutes in tonight.

~~~
bigfatgreg
It's almost strange how bad it is. Really under appreciated db.

------
hxf148
A web app for the new show <http://infostripe.com/thetalkshow>

------
jeffehobbs
I will miss Dan and John's talks. I think it's incredibly reductive to think
that the Talk Show was only Gruber's opinions.

------
alphang
It's like a band. Lots of good bands split up. Some bands explain why, others
just give a cryptic message.

------
chmars
I supported 'The Talk Show' on 5by5 via Instacast and Flattr. What's the Mule
Radio Network's on Flattr?

------
bbrad
Gruber has always seemed a dick, which to be fair, is part of his charm. Dan
has always seemed a gentleman, which is what made their banter so enjoyable.

But this is low. Add the fact that neither Dan nor John have taken the high
road and announced the split publicly and with decorum, is souring my opinion
of both of them.

~~~
snoozer
We couldn't know to what extent Dan was taken by surprise. It turns out he was
at least somewhat surprised:

<http://5by5.tv/specials/6>

In light of that, I don't think the weekend was too long to wait for a
statement from him.

Gruber, on the other hand, obviously knew of his own plans well in advance.

------
minchman
just heard the new talk show. it's just not the same. i liked the original
dynamic more.

~~~
jscarlton
In all fairness, it's episode 1. Takes a while (10-15 episodes, in my limited
podcasting experience) to find the groove.

~~~
adamschoales
Yeah, but you know what, it's not.

It's called "The Talk Show". Gruber/Mule is using the built in fan-base from
the previous show, and by calling it the same, be it "Talk Show 3.0" or "Talk
Show Season 3" you're inviting comparisons to the previous one and it's not
the same.

Everytime a new television season starts up we don't say "oh it takes a few
episodes to get the footing", that's what season 1 is for.

Calling this "The Talk Show" (which it clearly isn't), using similar graphics,
similar style, all of those things are, as Gruber would say, dick moves. If
Gruber wanted to leave the show, move to another network fine. But come up
with a new title. Many people would just assume "oh okay, Gruber has a new
show that he's doing". Once we went a few weeks without Talk Show we might
think "Hmm, guess The Talk Show is done?" and that's that.

But by DELIBERATELY making this out to be the same show is a bit scummy.

Maybe Dan fired John, and as payback he did this. Maybe John quit and took the
show with him. Either way, it should have been launched and branded as a
completely new thing if thats how they want it to be thought as.

If they're going to call it "The Talk Show" than its a continuation of what we
already had and therefore I expect the quality 90 episodes brings. And if
that's not there I'll give up, just like I do with TV shows that run their
course after a few seasons.

------
owenfi
5by5 seems like a lot more consistent network since it is run as a full time
endeavor.

------
iamneven
kind of a dick move by gruber. my thoughts on here

[http://postwilliamsburg.com/2012/05/21/did-john-gruber-
screw...](http://postwilliamsburg.com/2012/05/21/did-john-gruber-screw-over-
dan-benjamin/)

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rbird
Gruber knew what was coming and said nothing.

Benjamin was hit broadside and made an honorable statement.

That's all we need to know.

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rr3
I just hope they are still friends.

