
Extra Technical Obstacles for Facebook Quitters - mewthree
https://www.wsj.com/articles/some-facebook-quitters-face-technical-obstacles-1522947553
======
nxc18
I deleted my Facebook to the best of my ability about a week ago.

Fun facts:

* They switch around button colors to trick you into undoing your actions

* They are very eager to log you back in if you, for example, try to access help. This reactivates your account.

* You cannot delete your account on Messenger. They removed the option. Deleting your Facebook profile does not delete your messenger account

* Their doc for deleting your messenger account lies/is out of date.

* There is no shortage of dark patterns in their account delete process.

I ended up manually deleting all my content, unliking everything, and deleting
all my posts.

More fun facts: they don't show you all of your content. If you go back and
try to clean up your account, do it multiple times. Keep doing it until
Facebook can't find anything more to show you. I assume this is a technical
optimization, but it means that there is no reliable to see everything you've
posted (from the web UI).

~~~
flyinghamster
I'm surprised there wasn't a step that involved a locked file cabinet stuck in
a disused lavatory with a sign on the door saying "Beware of the Leopard."

~~~
labster
Instead of deactivation confirmation message, dialog box contained bobcat. One
star.

------
WhitneyLand
Cox, a major cable operator, allows you to sign up and add any services you
want online. However, partially removing or cancelling services online is
expressly forbidden. For example, if you wish to keep Internet service but
cancel cable TV, a call is required.

I know it’s a different process, but wanted to reilluminate the some of the
measures taken against disconnecting a service in general.

Once you do call, which I had to do for some older relatives recently, they
invoke a high pressure sales pitch in the form of a question decision tree
script.

The script requires the reps to start down the decision tree asking questions
like, “Why are you disconnecting your service today?”, and then using that
answer and others to slowly incent/coerce you into a corner intended to make
you feel it would be an absurd decision to downgrade service.

I recorded the call (legal because they are recording it as well) to avoid
misunderstandings about the precise details of what was being politely
requested.

In response to every script question, I gave one simple answer. “Sir, why are
you downgrading your service today?”. I reply, _“It’s a secret”_.

After a few seconds of hesitation, another question follows. “Is there
anything you are not happy about with our service?”, “If we could save you
more money than any other service would you be interested in hearing about
it?”. Sorry, that’s also a secret.

Surprisingly, it short circuited the script pretty quickly without any social
discomfort or feeling a need to justify myself. They allowed the changes to
proceed, fully documented.

~~~
sokoloff
Blue Apron is the same way (easy sign-up online, cancellation on the website
tells you to call this phone number).

So for the last year, I've been typing in "Blue Apron" to google every couple
of weeks, clicking on their _paid_ ad, and skipping the next 5 weeks of
deliveries. :)

~~~
briandear
The New York Times uses this cancellation process as well. I don’t feel bad
about violating their paywall now after being forced to actually talk to a
person to do something that should be enabled with a single click.

~~~
omerhj
The NYT now has an option to cancel using a chat window -- and I'm pretty sure
the operator that you're chatting with is a bot.

------
peatmoss
Probably (maybe?) not intentional, but suspiciously timed. Presumably off-
boarding from Facebook looks a bit like a funnel, where every additional
hurdle means more people will bail on their original intended action.

I nuked my facebook account a couple years back and I remember eye rolling at
the number of steps. And then there was the waiting period where they’d keep
my account around for some number of days or weeks just in case I decided to
come back. Easier to buy a gun at a gun show than do something truly grave
like get rid of a social media account.

~~~
existencebox
Hey, question for you, admittedly slightly tangential.

I've been a dev for a few user facing products that stored customer created
content and offered account deletion. These sites weren't specifically social,
and I always thought offering a "we don't hard delete for N days" (with
reasonably short N) was a user friendly option, in case of accidental deletion
or realizing recovery of certain assets was needed. Would you have an issue
with this if the rest of the process wasn't dark-patterened? (e.g. if it was a
clear single button "Delete account, type account name to confirm, OK, your
stuff is going to be hard gone in a week")

I'm curious as to where that line would be for you, since I usually consider
well towards the "make options blatantly transparent and easy to use" and to
the "allow users control of their account" side of things.

~~~
peatmoss
I feel like Github's Danger Zone strikes a nice middle ground between "total
footgun" and Facebook's belligerent refusal to let someone immediately sever
their relationship.

Actually, when compared to a breakup, the Facebook model seems even more
silly:

"I just think this relationship isn't working, and that we should move on, and
find someone who we'll be happy with."

"I'm really sorry you feel that way. I'll just continue being your boyfriend
for the next week or two. If I hear from you at all during that time, I'll
assume we're back together."

And specifically keeping a backup of my data prior to hard delete? On a
continuum from worst to best:

Worst: Company as a matter of policy keeps my data around intentionally past
the point of severing the relationship.

Forgivable: Technical architectural constraints mean that there might be some
lag time before an "erase the tapes" process fully purges my data, with this
limitation noted in the docs.

Best: Once I've terminated my relationship with the company, the company
purges all my personal data.

------
ino
If you're in Europe and want to delete your fb account, wouldn't it be better
to wait until GDPR activates, so your data actually gets erased instead of
hidden?

I'm going to erase quite a few accounts I'm no longer using on various
services, I really hope they won't cheat.

~~~
dangom
According to Wikipedia, GDPR arrives on the 25th of May. Do you know it
services are truly forced to comply from that day onwards or should we wait
even longer?

~~~
camkego
If we log on from the UK or another European company after the 25th and delete
the account from there, will they apply the GDPR based deletion, where they
actually delete the data?

~~~
neffy
Strictly it only applies to residents of the EU, how much attention companies
will pay to that, is another matter. But given the risks associated with not
deleting data, I suspect most companies will err on the side of safety.

~~~
illumin8
Change your location to somewhere in the EU, then delete.

------
jjxw
While not exactly the same, reminds me of the "Roach Motel" Dark Pattern [1]
which intentionally increases friction to completing an action by users that
would be detrimental to the business (such as deleting one's account). Amazon
is another example of making it nearly impossible to figure out how to delete
your account unless you search for the steps or go through a lot of trial and
error. [2]

[1] [https://darkpatterns.org/types-of-dark-pattern/roach-
motel](https://darkpatterns.org/types-of-dark-pattern/roach-motel) [2]
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kxkrdLI6e6M](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kxkrdLI6e6M)

------
jacquesm
The quickest way to get an idea of the ethics of a company you are about to
sign up with is to see how easy it is to delete your account. If that's not
automatic and with only one confirmation whether or not you are sure and that
you can't undo your deletion then you are best off not to give them your data
in the first place.

For all those FB users this is of course way too late, but maybe it will help
some of you in the future with other services.

~~~
zedgoat
Second this. I have a junk address I use to sign up first, and if there's no
flow to self-terminate I won't signup.

I've had some services where I've wound up in a standoff in an intercom
session, with the requirement that I justify the deletion or go through
troubleshooting and customer support before being blessed with the right to
remove my own account.

ExpressVPN stands out particularly, the rep resorted to insulting me over my
knowledge of data security when I justified the deletion based on the fact
they could one day leak or be sold, so I'd prefer to terminate unused
credentials.

Particularly strong pattern with VPN providers, Crypto exchanges, etc.

------
inetknght
I clicked the delete button on my account on Monday. I've had several people
come to me and ask why I unfriended them, as if they had thought they'd
offended me in some way. I started to wonder if Facebook had told them that
I'd unfriended them. No, some of them had browser plugins that would search
their friends list for changes.

... which is cool, I guess.

~~~
itronitron
you can tell them you unfriended them because they are still using Facebook :>

------
knolan
I deleted my account a few days ago. It was surprisingly less trouble than
expected. I had very little linked to my account, only my PlayStation account
had access for posting media from my PS4 which I only did once or twice.

I downloaded my data, which took about 20 minutes to accumulate, hit the
delete button and had to confirm a second time with my password. Supposedly my
account will be removed after 14 days of being deactivated. I had to be
careful to remove all bookmarks etc to prevent any accidental logins resulting
in the process being reversed.

Glad it’s gone, I don’t miss it. Hopefully this is the beginning of the end
for this type of thing on the internet.

------
neurotech1
Obligatory non-Paywall link [http://archive.is/FVdrM](http://archive.is/FVdrM)

~~~
hcnews
I guess fullwsj.com got shutdown because of recent facebook limitations. Does
the twitter referrer still work for wsj.com?

~~~
lzy
Domain expired. Probably the owner felt it wasn't worth the annual
registration fee to continue maintaining the service?

~~~
lgats
Didn't realize people were actually using it. Renewed now, sorry for the
downtime. I welcome feedback if anyone has any recommendations on how to
improve the service.

------
hkeide
I've been using this Chrome extension [0] for many years which simply hides
the news feed. After installing it, I never looked back. I haven't disabled it
once. If everyone stopped using the news feed, Facebook would be dead. It's
the heart of the addiction machine.

[0] [https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/kill-news-
feed/hjo...](https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/kill-news-
feed/hjobfcedfgohjkaieocljfcppjbkglfd?hl=en)

~~~
xefer
This is sort of bizarre to me. I say this because I use uBlock to remove
everything _but_ the newsfeed. The screen shots shown on that extension page
is basically the inverse of what I have...

How do you engage with Facebook at all?

~~~
nkantar
My guess is they engage with other Facebook users in a more direct and
deliberate manner.

I'd wager that's a far less addictive way to use Facebook overall.

------
headsoup
Quick question (I can't test as I'm not on Facebook):

If someone logs into a separate service using their 'Facebook Login' will that
reactivate their account if disabled/deleted (within 14 days)?

Has this been tested?

A lot of people have saved logins etc so might not realise if this does
actually reactivate them...

~~~
dmead
Yes. Without a doubt.

------
bbarn
On a related note, I'm seeing lots of ads in meat-space here in Chicago about
how much better Facebook is going to become at filtering fake news and fake
accounts from you. It's a sign to me they're finally worried.

~~~
60654
Yeah, all those ads about how they're going to fix fake ads, and clickbait
ads, and so on, all over the L stops...

They're buying ads that try to influence public opinion, about how they
mishandled orgs buying ads that try to influence public opinion. :)

------
sorenn111
How commonly accepted of a best practice is it to only shadow delete items in
a DB. Will GDPR in Europe stop this? As a US user, I always fear that the
internet is 100% written in ink. Either because of some caching mechanism,
archiving protocol, or general reluctance to delete.

~~~
jacquesm
Extremely common but definitely _not_ best practice. Many companies don't even
have life cycle management.

Hopefully GDPR will stop this.

Your fears are well founded, especially for anything that was public at some
point in time. Also include email in that view.

------
wybiral
I would join all of the people in this Facebook exodus but I haven't used it
in five years or so.

Catch up with old friends over lunch sometime or write them an actual letter.
You'll feel more connected having that kind of personal interaction than
seeing snippets in a timeline.

As for events, if the people close to you don't think to invite you to
things... Reevaluate your social life because something seems broken and it's
not the lack of FB. People had perfectly healthy social lives before FB
inserted itself.

PS: I didn't have to "delete" my account. I just never installed the app and
don't ever log in. I flagged the updates as spam in my email and all is well.

------
aetherspawn
If you want to avoid logging in accidentally, you can just make a garbage
(that is, no-garbage?) account that you use only for family or something and
then log into that instead.

Rename your old account to John Smith or something, change the password to
sign everything out, delete it and then only re-sign into your new account
(which you intend to barely/not use).

Nowadays I only use Facebook to reach family that don’t use Instagram and I
keep my Instagram network private-only and small (<80). There is automatic
cross-posting so it doesn’t cost me any effort in this regard.

~~~
imron
Don't worry, Facebook keeps track of devices, so they'll still know it's
really you.

~~~
aetherspawn
Yes, they ask you to re-add all your old friends but I’m assuming that will
disappear eventually when my other account goes poof [1].

1: in reality, it probably doesn’t ever go poof.

~~~
imron
I don't think that's a valid assumption :-)

------
dieterrams
[https://m.facebook.com/account/delete](https://m.facebook.com/account/delete)

Use this link to delete hassle-free.

------
mattsfrey
[https://outline.com/Vg4R7C](https://outline.com/Vg4R7C)

For non subscribers

------
lainga
This happened to me last week; I assumed it was intentional, a super-form of
the "your friends will miss you!". You can reset your password and continue.

------
mercora
why would i have to delete my account anyhow. I just stopped using facebook
quite awhile ago but still have my account there. From time to time people
which would have otherwise trouble to find me online write me there and thanks
to the mail notifications i can tell them how to contact me properly.

~~~
TheForumTroll
They still collect information on you from all sites with a Like button. If
you don't mind that there's no need to delete anything.

~~~
petre
Just install ublock origin and activate all social filters.

------
snvzz
Paywall. Summary?

------
feelin_googley
"Facebook has asked several major U.S. hospitals to share anonymized data
about their patients, such as illnesses and prescription info, for a proposed
_research project_.

Facebook was intending to match it up with user data it had _collected_ , and
help the hospitals figure out which patients might need special care or
treatment."

Source:

[https://www.cnbc.com/2018/04/05/facebook-
building-8-explored...](https://www.cnbc.com/2018/04/05/facebook-
building-8-explored-data-sharing-agreement-with-hospitals.html)

~~~
imron
Please share anonymous data with us that we can cross reference with our own
data to de-anonymize!

------
feelin_googley
The chief investment officer of the California State Teachers' Retirement
System (CalSTRS) deleted his Facebook account yesterday because of FB's
management re: privacy.

CalSTRS owned $650.4 million in FB shares at end of year 2017. I wonder if he
experienced any of these technical problems when deleting his account.

Source: [https://www.cnbc.com/2018/04/05/calstrs-cio-deletes-
facebook...](https://www.cnbc.com/2018/04/05/calstrs-cio-deletes-facebook-
account-citing-offensive-management.html)

------
eatinggrin
I didn't delete my facebook. I unfriended everyone I knew. Took screenshots of
the first pictures I saw when you googled my name as my pictures, then added
random friends in other states I didn't know (not before re-filling all my
data with fake data). Screw you facebook!

------
feelin_googley
"We've seen a few advertisers pause with us and _they 're asking the same
questions that other people are asking_," Sandberg said Thursday in an
interview at Facebook headquarters in Menlo Park, California. "They want to
make sure _they can use data_ and use it safely."

Sandberg said she is having " _reassuring conversations with advertisers, just
as we are with people_ ," about how Facebook has _built privacy into its
system_.

[ This is very reassuring. ]

The company makes almost all its revenue and profit from advertising.

[ This too. ]

...

In a wide-ranging interview, Sandberg discussed the company's _shifting
responsibilities_ as _it thinks about what can go wrong_ with its network,
following the Cambridge Analytica revelations.

[ "Shifting responsibilities". Hmmm. ]

...

The company will also apply new European user-privacy rules globally, Sandberg
said.

While the service may look different depending on the country, "the
fundamental core principles of those settings and controls we are going to
apply all over the world," she said. "Whether or not laws are passed."

[ Why does it need to "look different"? Less confusing that way I guess. ]

Separately, in an interview with Emily Chang of Bloomberg Television, Sandberg
_took the blame_ for not ensuring that Facebook's operations were staffed at
the right level to protect users' privacy and for failing to look at security
issues in total rather than dealing with specific problems as they arose.

"We also didn't build our operations fast enough, and that's on me," Sandberg
said, explaining that the company will have 20,000 people working on security
by year's end.

[ How brave to take the blame, considering the repercussions for this sort of
negligence or carelessness with respect to privacy in the US are...
nonexistent. ]

Source:

[https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-04-05/facebook-...](https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-04-05/facebook-
s-sandberg-says-a-few-advertisers-paused-spending)

------
feelin_googley
"I feel deeply personally responsible, because _a lot of mistakes were made_
," Sandberg said in an interview with Bloomberg.

[ Dont feel bad. You are doing a fantastic job! ]

"What _we didn 't do until recently_ and what we are doing now is just _take a
broader view_ looking to be more restrictive in ways data could be misused. We
also _didn 't build our operations fast enough_ \-- and that's on me," she
added.

...

Sandberg addressed that comment as well, emphasizing that " _all of that was
public information_."

...

"This is a _forever_ process, because security is always an arms race,"
Sandberg said during an interview with Bloomberg.

[ No worries! Take as much time as you need. ]

Source:

[https://www.cnbc.com/2018/04/05/facebook-coo-feels-deeply-
pe...](https://www.cnbc.com/2018/04/05/facebook-coo-feels-deeply-personally-
responsible-for-data-leak.html)

~~~
dang
It looks like you've been posting dozens of these. Would you please stop? HN
threads are for conversation, not copy-pasting.

~~~
feelin_googley
And these two about Sandberg are the first ones that got downvoted. (But one
of them just got upvoted, so... Touche Sandberg PR team. :)

The bracketed comments (so-called "commentary") are what drew the demerits I
suspect, _not_ the copy-paste. I apologise to anyone who was offended. No more
sarcasm from me, and no more copy-paste, I promise.

Almost all other posts have gotten generous amounts of upvotes. None got
downvotes.

HN has some ethical readers who are bolstering the faith I have in the future
of the internet!

One post (the one about the story comparing FB to an engorged tick) got _98
upvotes_.

~~~
dang
Thanks, I appreciate the change.

Upvotes are an important variable on HN but they aren't sufficient to keep the
site on track with its mandate. If they were, it wouldn't need moderation.

------
pcunite
An account created 40 minutes ago can post something that appears on the front
page?

~~~
nothrabannosir
Fot a more zen perspective, consider the upside down: It’s not the poster that
got it to the front page, but the people who upvoted it.

If those were all fresh accounts, it would have been detected as a voting
ring.

