
16-inch MacBook Pro - rayascott
https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2019/11/apple-introduces-16-inch-macbook-pro-the-worlds-best-pro-notebook/
======
throwanem
I'm astonished and pleased to see they walked back the two worst things about
the original Touch Bar MBPs - the lack of a physical Escape key, and the full-
size left and right arrow keys.

The lack of physical function keys remains regrettable, and the Touch Bar is
still no worthy substitute, but perhaps this is a sign that Apple is finally
interested in listening to feedback from its long-term customer base, even if
that feedback conflicts with the design team's desires.

~~~
wwweston
It turns out that people who buy laptops -- a mobile-ish form factor
differentiated from a tablet by its keyboard -- might _really really care
about keyboards_ as the main interface between user and device.

I'd concluded that Apple didn't really think much of laptops anymore, and had
simply moved on to caring more about other form factors: it seemed a logical
conclusion if one assumed that people at Apple were in fact competent.

This shows some real care regarding laptops as a form factor and puts them
back in the running for a lot of buyers, including me. But there's still one
major issue that I don't see people talking much about -- the way that Apple's
decisions regarding storage (namely soldering it to the board AND making it so
that there's no way to access it in the event of a logic board failure)
increases consumer risk as well as decreasing consumer choice:

[https://www.notebookcheck.net/Apple-removes-the-Customer-
Dat...](https://www.notebookcheck.net/Apple-removes-the-Customer-Data-
Migration-Tool-connector-in-the-the-2018-MacBook-Pro-with-Touch-
Bar.318186.0.html)

 _It increases risk of data loss_. That's a choice that impacts the day-to-day
experience much less than the keyboard, which explains why the keyboard has
gotten much more attention, and it really is nice that a company arguably
built on attention to experience returned to that aspect of it. But this kind
of choice makes a huge difference in a moment of failure, and it's at least
equally user-hostile, especially in a product bearing the name "pro" where
data recovery can be a matter of business continuity.

I suppose that one can argue a responsible professional will be using network
and external backups (and of course all responsible professionals worth
considering or selling anything to _will_ do this, right?), and so this isn't
necessary, and Apple's thing (wise or unwise) is that they frequently
reconsider and eliminate things that aren't crucial. But redundancy in some
areas is wise, and I can't see what they think eliminating both removability
AND emergency direct access when it come to storage actually buys them. Even
if one assumes it's a lock-in action for service, it makes the actual service
more difficult and costly.

I'm liking the keyboard correction. I just bought a 2014 MBP to replace an
older failing MBP, so I'm not in the market for something else for a year or
two, but when that comes up, I'll be seriously looking at the 16" as an
option. And this will be what I'm thinking about.

~~~
dkonofalski
>It increases risk of data loss.

I realize that this is idealistic of me but _data loss should never be an
issue_. This is 2019 and backups have been drilled into everyone's heads for
years and years and years. You can still access the drives in these via Target
Disk mode (and I've had to do a few recoveries through that so I know it
works) and it's likely that the pros outweigh the cons.

~~~
lliamander
On the other hand:

\- There's the adage in the enterprise space that, if you haven't tested your
backups, then you don't really have backups. Most consumers, and even
professional users, aren't likely going to be in a position to verify their
backups before they actually need them.

\- Not even being able to do simple repairs or upgrades massively reduces the
ROI. This is especially for high-end, professional equipment.

When I first started my current job, everyone was given the option of a
Thinkpad with linux or a Mac. Both units had 16GB of RAM. When it became
apparent that 16GB was insufficient for my workloads, it was simple for IT to
upgrade my Thinkpad to 32GB. My coworkers with Macs were not so fortunate.

~~~
codetrotter
> There's the adage in the enterprise space that, if you haven't tested your
> backups, then you don't really have backups. Most consumers, and even
> professional users, aren't likely going to be in a position to verify their
> backups before they actually need them.

This is why having more than just one computer is beneficial. Because I jump
between multiple laptops, desktops, and other devices, and perform my work and
other activities, I bring with me copies of my data between devices by
necessity, whenever I need that data.

And I think that is actually the way to do it. Not to focus so much on trying
to keep multiple copies of all of your data since forever, because then you
get bogged down in details about keeping everything in sync and everything
organized, but instead to just focus on the data that you actually need, and
being conscious about making copies of data when you use it.

In the past, when I was using fewer computers, I had one computer that was
sort of the canonical location of data. And I’d access it over the network and
work on my data there. It had great uptime too. On the order of months. Then
one day there was a power outage and that was when I realized that I had no
idea what I had set as the password for the full disk encryption on said
machine. Ooops :^)

I lost a fair bit of data that day. But I learned something too, and that
learning has shaped my habits in how I deal with data and I can proudly say
that in the years that have passed since then I have been able to hold on to
all of the data that is most important to me.

I _almost_ got blindsided by 2FA a couple of years ago, because I didn’t know
that the keys for the second factor were intentionally kept device-local. But
thankfully I was changing phones with the old one still functional and in my
possession and was waiting with performing factory reset until after I’d set
up the new phone and seen whether or not I had all that I needed. So because
of that all I needed to do was to log in with the 2FA of the old phone on each
service I had it on, temporarily disable 2FA and then reenable it with the new
phone and when I did that I also saved all of the new 2FA keys so that in the
event that I might actually end up having to switch phones because the new one
broke in the future I would not end up locked out of my accounts.

~~~
ThePowerOfFuet
If you're using iOS, Google Authenticator seeds are indeed backed up if you do
an encrypted local backup via iTunes, iMazing, etc.

------
blhack
It's hilarious to me that their own marketing image has two dongles plugged
into the laptop so that the user can still use USB.

Apple please for the love of usability: please give me back USB. I AM the pro
that you want to feature in every one of your marketing videos. I have a music
studio in my house, I build interactive lighting installations for the biggest
music festivals in the world, I build custom hardware controllers for fire
effects that travel all over the country, I travel around the world teaching
people how to build hardware devices, and when home I spend the majority of my
time teaching and building software that people love; I use my laptop for over
10 hours a day.

All of this stuff uses USB. ALL OF IT. Having to carry around stupid dongles
all the time is the biggest pain in my ass when I'm trying to do all of this
stuff. PLEASE give me back USB, you can even call it the "stupid loser old
crappy loser lame macbook for loser non pros". I don't care. This nonsense
minimalist sleek design stuff is actually harming my productivity.

~~~
donkeyd
Things change, deal with it. I've swapped USB cables to USB-C cables. Only USB
drives, which i rarely use anymore require an adapter. Meanwhile, I can use
all 4 ports to:

\- Run a display

\- Charge my laptop

\- Charge a phone

\- Connect a drive

I can even use a single port to both charge the laptop and run a screen with
multiple USB devices attached to it.

I now need to daisy chain converters to use my PS/2 mouse on my MacBook Pro
though, so that's a bit of a hassle.

Also, I can use the same charger and dongles for my work notebook, which is
Windows based. I wish every new thing was USB-C, because I love it.

(This is a copy of a previous comment, because I feel it is relevant again.)

~~~
pentae
Having 4 USB-C's is a bit like having 4 Ferraris. Sometimes you need something
a bit more practical. People will still be using USB-A for the next 10 years.
Having to use a dongle for USB-A on a 16" macbook is pretty ridiculous.
There's still a billion USB-A accessories out there and will be for a long
time. Apple jumped the gun in a major way. This wasn't like dropping the
floppy disc or CD-rom drive considering how small the USB-A port is.

~~~
pkulak
> People will still be using USB-A for the next 10 years.

Possibly. But they'll be using it for the next 100 if no one ever removes it
from anything.

~~~
jedberg
The floppy drive died because a better option came out. If USB-C is truly
better, than all new accessories would use it.

There needs to be a transition period where everyone has USB-C _and_ USB-A so
that the peripherals can naturally move to the better technology.

Right now I've never seed a good USB-C to USB-A converter. I work at a lot of
conferences, and any time a speaker comes with a new MacBook and a USB
adaptor, it's a disaster. They all suck.

~~~
AdamN
They removed USB-A about a year before they should have, but now the industry
has moved on. We can talk about it as a mistake in the past, but it would be
wack to put USB-A back onto these devices.

~~~
Lammy
How can we say "the industry has moved on" when the second piece of media on
the linked announcement page has someone doing music production with a visible
USB-C -> USB-A dongle connecting some rack-eared music gear. There's even a
second dongle on their left that I don't recognize. I long for the C-only
future, but we're not there yet. Apple's decision to go C-only always seemed
to be an aesthetic one to me.

------
insta_anon
Can someone explain to me how Apple can justify only including a 720p FaceTime
HD camera into the "the world’s best pro notebook"?

The last iPhone that had this FaceTime camera was the 6S, released in 2015.
Since the iPhone 7 (2016) the phones have had at least a 1080p FaceTime
camera. Given that FaceTime / Skype calls are such a common use case and
rarely anyones uses external webcams anymore, why doesn't Apple use the
existing camera system of the iPhone 11 for the MacBook?

Seriously, if I pay north of $4000 dollars for a laptop, why do I get an
obsolete camera?

~~~
macintux
A phone camera is used to capture moments you want to preserve for posterity.
A laptop camera is used for conference calls and no one needs to see all my
facial flaws in 4K detail.

So, no, I don’t consider this in any way to be a dealbreaker.

~~~
pier25
> _A laptop camera is used for conference calls_

And youtube videos.

I agree that 4K can be considered excessive, but 1080p would be the
appropriate resolution in 2019 for a high end machine.

~~~
enraged_camel
I think if you're the type of person that records youtube videos regularly,
chances are you probably already own an external camera with specialized
functionality.

~~~
computerex
How does that address the original point in anyway? This laptop's base price
is almost $4000 USD. That's a lot of money to spend on a laptop and one would
hope that it'd at least come with a decent webcam.

~~~
enraged_camel
Judging by the number of upvotes it got, I'd say it addresses the original
point rather well.

The laptop is already expensive. You want to make it even _more_ expensive by
adding a webcam that will undouactually cares about that kind of thing?

~~~
computerex
You can't unilaterally claim what people do or do not care about, though.
That's reverse rationalization. A 720p webcam is however, objectively, third
class in 2019.

------
karpodiem
Would it materially harm a company with a trillion dollar market cap to offer
a version of this without the touchbar (thus yielding a lower price), so
people can afford to upgrade the soldered memory and NVMe drive?

Would it also harm them to make a version that didn't have soldered
memory/NVMe drive?

Ultimately, this is why I switched to a Dell Latitude. Being user hostile to
basic memory/disk replacement doesn't fly with me when spending $1500+ on a
machine.

And if replacing either breaks the crypto chain - I don't need a black box T2
chip, I'll do my own disk encryption.

~~~
mmmBacon
One way Apple has become a trillion dollar company is by minimizing skus.
Options mean inventory, development and test costs etc... and can be sources
of quality problems triggering warranty repairs or replacements. Doing few
things allows one to streamline both product development and manufacturing.

~~~
p_l
Except they still offered options, but without modularity, so you had more
SKUs to track in your logistics - you still need to track the parts you solder
down, except now instead of shipping a base system and being able to make a
"CTO" version, or just let authorised resellers with authorised service points
apply the right parts, you need to wait till a whole extra SKU gets moved
through thousands of kilometers of logistic chain for your one tiny order.

Maybe the experience in USA with Apple Stores is different, but when forced to
buy a Mac by work recently I had to deal with some ridiculous wait times just
for asking for 32G ram.

~~~
hombre_fatal
It's so much better in the USA that I wait until I visit home to do anything
Apple related, whether it's to order a new custom laptop or to send my laptop
in for service.

For example, I needed my logic board + keyboard replaced and it landed on my
doorstep 24 hours later.

Definitely a different experience everywhere else I've been when dealing with
Apple whether it's Mexico City or Lisbon. Most places are even lucky to have
an actual Apple Store rather than some sort of certified 3rd party with
questionable liability.

~~~
lostgame
>> For example, I needed my logic board + keyboard replaced and it landed on
my doorstep 24 hours later.

You mean a new unit? I highly doubt the repair happened in 24 hours.

------
Ambroos
For others who might be wondering, this replaces the 15-inch MacBook Pro.
There's a small increase in size (15 vs 16):

\- Thickness: 1.55cm to 1.62cm (+0.7mm, +4.5%)

\- Width: 34.93cm to 35.79cm (+0.86cm, +2.5%)

\- Depth: 24.07cm to 24.59cm (+0.52cm, +2.2%)

\- Weight: 1.83kg to 2.0kg (+170gr, +9.3%)

The display alone is ~1.3cm wider (and ~0.7cm higher), so there was a small
reduction in bezel sizes, allowing the screen to grow more than the rest of
the hardware.

~~~
markus_zhang
I have a question for you Mac users. Assuming that you don't treat the machine
badly, no extra care (e.g. never open up to do maintenance), and have to carry
it around half of the time. How long do you think a Macbook would last in
average?

For the Lenovo I'm using I'd say about 5 years because I break things so
easily...it's reaching retirement.

~~~
chpmrc
Up until almost 5 years ago, before switching to a Macbook Pro, I used to have
various laptops with both Windows and Ubuntu. Here's my belief: A non-Apple
laptop that lasts 2+ years, without having to be regularly formatted, without
improving the hardware, without giving up performance or needing who knows
what kind of tweaking/cleaning, upgrade after upgrade, is a myth. It doesn't
exist.

Sure, I know plenty of people who've had the same Lenovo/HP/whatever laptop
for 5, even 10 years but every single time I personally used their laptop I
was embarassed at how bad the experience was. Sluggish, ugly, with fans
spinning like they needed to put out a fire.

After almost 5 years the 13" 2015 Macbook Pro I'm currently writing on _hasn
't lost one beat_. It's as snappy and as usable as the very first day. I
haven't formatted once, I've easily kept it up to date, I only replaced the
battery because it was lasting 4 hours instead of the original 6-7. I can
still edit videos, run VMs, play not-too-demanding games, do Photoshop, like
the first day I bought it. And everything makes me think I'll be able to do so
for the next 2-3 years, at least.

I've travelled with it to 10 countries and dropped it 5 or 6 times. There are
multiple dents on the corners but, damn, this thing is tough!

------
Someone1234
Holy heck, they re-added a physical escape key. That's a huge improvement. a
slight shame they didn't just move the touchbar up and re-add the F key row
too, but it is a good compromise and improvement regardless.

This could be the one a lot of people have been waiting for if the new
switches/design pans out.

PS - Although I might be an unusual demographic as I touch type and wouldn't
use the touchbar regardless (since I look at the screen, not the backs of my
hands while I interact with a Mac).

~~~
Jonovono
Whats with you guys and the ESC key? It's so far away do you actually use it?
I map caps-lock to ESC/Hyper key which I find pretty useful.

~~~
reificator
> _Whats with you guys and the ESC key? It 's so far away do you actually use
> it?_

You're joking. You realize this forum is filled with programmers and other
digital creative professionals, right?

~~~
dpkonofa
I am both a digital creative professional and a developer/programmer and I
can't remember when was the last time I pressed the escape key. If anything,
it might have been to exit a full-screen video where the UI had mysteriously
disappeared because some crappy website couldn't deal with an ad-blocker.

Programmers and creative professionals don't unilaterally love or need the ESC
key like you're suggesting.

~~~
tandav
For me frequent usecase for ESC is to hide some popup that you opened by
accident.

Like "Save As" dialog / rename file / Purchase SublimeText License / etc. In
macOS you can hide many types of dialogs with ESC

~~~
dpkonofa
That's fine but you can still do that without the physical key, can't you? I'm
still able to escape out of dialogs like that without needing a physical key.

~~~
reificator
You can also type on a smartphone without a physical keyboard...

------
charleshan
Don't forget that the Touch Bar costs an additional $400 for consumers.

The 2015 model was the best MacBook Pro. Perhaps the best laptop yet.

~~~
criddell
It always seemed backwards that the touch bar is a pro feature. Aren't pros
the group that learn all the keyboard commands? The touch bar seems like it
would be most useful to non-pro users.

~~~
briandear
Can you do audio or video scrubbing with FN keys? Have you used touchbar with
Photoshop or similar apps? A Pro User doesn’t mean “software developer” —
there are a lot of other pros that really love the touchbar.

~~~
criddell
Now that I think about this more, if you are right, then why don't the Mac
Pros come with a touchbar keyboard? Video and photo editing are probably the
primary uses for the Mac Pro.

~~~
AmericanChopper
Because all of those use cases already have purpose built peripherals that
would be more appropriate to use with a stationary workstation. Laptops
benefit from something more portable and general purpose.

------
andy_ppp
Thicker, Escape Key, larger battery, better keyboard... it's _almost_ as if
Jonny Ive has left Apple!

~~~
fhood
Apple should just release a really really expensive version of the air. That
way people looking for a designer laptop have something they can throw too
much money at, and the rest of us can have a mbp that makes some allowances
for performance.

Edit: I may be overly snarky, but I find it hard to imagine that recent mbp
models were not influenced by the social clout that the iphone brought to the
apple brand.

~~~
wil421
Apple had social clout way before the iPhone. Macs were always expensive.

Apple created a twentieth anniversary Mac (TAM) that cost $7,500 in 1998 and
was delivered to your house by a Limo. The driver wore white gloves and hand
delivered the TAM.

------
ben7799
64GB RAM is like "hallelujah". Doing enterprise dev with Docker + Java is
pretty horrible with 16GB on my 2017 MBP.

The fact that this review didn't even once mention the fact that this machine
is now thicker & bigger and yet they didn't add any useful ports back in is
amazing.

I still hate that the 2017 one I have has only USB-C + Headphone jack. I
appreciate that it still has the headphone jack.

But at our office we all got OWC Thunderbolt 3 Docks @ $300/desk and the whole
experience sucks.

~~~
charlesju
What are you using that isn't USB C/Bluetooth at this point? Honest question.

~~~
Rebelgecko
Literally every single TV or projector I've ever given a presentation on

Ethernet

(micro-)SD card

Keyboard

Mouse

Displays

Flashing microcontrollers (technically could be done over BT but it is a pain
in the ass)

Gamepad

I've bought dongles/docking stations for all of these devices but it is a huge
hassle when traveling, which is a use case a laptop should be able to excel
at. Adding just a single USB-A port and HDMI would be a complete gamechanger
for me. Apple wouldn't be able to sell as many of their $70 dongles though.

~~~
hinkley
Logitech mice work better with the receiver than over bluetooth.

I'm making due with one dongle right now because I have a Thunderbolt adapter
and I've daisy chained all my peripherals off of my old Cinema display.

But it's started glitching out with USB devices.

~~~
PUSH_AX
> Logitech mice work better with the receiver than over bluetooth.

I've found the opposite to be true, with my MX Master 3 using the receiver
resulted in some odd "bald spots" on the mat that made no sense, switching to
bluetooth fixed it.

------
pwthornton
This is Apple going all in on pro for this laptop.

The display is fantastic all around, 64 GB of ram, 8 GB of DDR6 VRAM, 8 cores,
biggest battery FAA will allow on planes, 8 TB SSD, etc.

This will also be able to connect to Apple's upcoming 6K 32-inch display.

This is a very impressive update all around and it shows Apple putting a lot
of space between their pro laptops and the MBA and iPad Pro now. The lineup is
starting to make a lot of sense again.

~~~
w-m
When people cite the great feat of putting in a 100Wh battery into this laptop
they seem to keep forgetting that the 2012-2014 models had a 95Wh battery and
the 2015 model had a 99.5Wh battery.

Only when flattening the design for the 2016 year did they reduce it to 76Wh.

~~~
weego
We're hoping undoing mistakes is a good step towards actual progress

~~~
opencl
In the specific case of the battery it's unlikely to get any bigger than 100Wh
as that would make it illegal to take on planes in the US.

~~~
nickflood
Some ruggedized laptops have two separate batteries for hot-swapping while
keeping the PC on, and this way you can take a laptop with more than 100 Wh on
a plane. The same way I take a 95 Wh laptop with a 75 Wh power bank. So never
say never :)

~~~
Shengbo
I've never had a good experience with swappable batteries.

------
snowwrestler
11 years ago I bought a 15” MacBook Pro, the first model year with the unibody
design. I’m still using it almost every day for web browsing, watching videos,
editing documents, etc.

In 2008, it cost $2,400. The new 16” released today costs... $2,400.

~~~
izolate
I have the same 15” from late 2008 sitting in storage at home. Surprised
you’re still using it! What OS version?

Sometimes I like to look at the price of Apple stock in 2008 and wonder how
much money I would have today if I had instead bought 2.5k USD worth of shares
in 2008 instead of the laptop - it’s depressing.

~~~
yoz-y
I'm using a 15" from mid 2009 every day still, it's on Mojave (with dos1dude's
patch). Some software starts to flake out but it's still perfectly usable. (i
need a custom homebrew patch because all new binaries require architecture
beyond Penryn)

------
ses1984
"I'm so glad this model has a touchbar"

"I would buy a dell xps but only if it had a touchbar"

things no one ever said.

~~~
mstade
I initially found the touchbar to mostly be a gimmick, new for the sake of
being new and not really bringing anything useful to the table.

A couple of years later and I'm a convert. If I had to buy a new MBP today I
would definitely make sure it has a touchbar. It turns out app makers have
found some nifty uses for it, like the ability to quickly mute/unmute when in
conference calls, quickly changing volume/brightness, stepping through code
while debugging etc etc. These are seemingly insignificant quality of life
improvements, but I definitely miss them when on a machine without a touchbar.
Conversely I haven't missed the Fn-keys, not even once.

That hardware esc key looks tasty though, I hope they bring that to the 13"
model.

~~~
stedaniels
I respect your opinion, but all of the examples you gave are already possible
with Fn-keys.

I think what the touchbar brings is always active tutorial/reminder as to
what's possible with the touchbar. Due to it's very nature you don't have to
be taught what's on there, you can see, you then don't have to remember/rely
on building up muscle memory.

I imagine it sucks for accessibility. I'd still want one before my faculties
faulter, I imagine I'd get some use out of it with my IDE.

~~~
mstolpm
Most computer users aren’t hardcore users. Of course not scientific, but I
know a lot of users that are intimidated by strange FN keys and are glad the
touchbar clearly labels the current function of the virtual keys. We as HN
crowd and hardcore freaks need to accept that no major hardware company can
survive by delevoping for us niche users.

~~~
xiphias2
You're right, but it's not just hardware.

I was part of the spell correction team at Google, and we made sure that we
aren't overly aggressive even though lots of people mistype their web query.

Nowdays I find it much harder to research rare things on Google, and I have to
undo the automatic correction that the spell corrector does all the time
(which is OK as long as it's easy to undo).

~~~
sethammons
A question for you, given your expertise: why do most (all?) spell
checking/correcting not take into account key locality (is, neighboring key
accidentally pressed). A big one for me is hitting n or b instead of space. I
think it has gotten better recently, but has a loooong way to go. Just curious
on your thoughts. Cheers!

~~~
xiphias2
It was there from the first iteration of spelling a long time ago (the first
iteration was just looking at misspelling frequencies, second iteration 12
years ago moved to understanding multiple spelling mistakes/mistypes)

If you see these kind of easy-to-correct mistakes, it probably means that the
spell corrector wasn't given that big attention in the past 10 years.

~~~
xiphias2
I just realized that you wrote space....that’s harder as the spell corrector
works on words separately :(

I was working on URL corrections part that didn’t need to use segmentation, so
I don’t know the details though.

------
insta_anon
Imagine they offered the same configuration with and without TouchBar, with
the model with TouchBar costing $400 more - how many people would choose the
model with? I bet less than 5%.

Is Apple afraid to offer this because it clearly would show that almost no one
is ready to pay for it?

Even from this audience, who of you would be willing to pay the premium for
the TouchBar?

~~~
esolyt
I would pay a premium for NOT having a touch bar. I want physical keys for
brightness/volume etc.

~~~
insta_anon
Same for me. I would easily pay $100 to NOT have the TouchBar.

------
scarface74
John Gruber’s review

[https://daringfireball.net/](https://daringfireball.net/)

And before everyone accuses him of being an Apple fanboy and biased, there is
no disputing that he is very much a keyboard snob. He hated the last
generation keyboard and he called it out during his initial review. He also
famously still prefers an old ADB Apple Keyboard and he never bought a laptop
with the old one.

He’s also linked to a lot of articles criticizing it.

If he praises it, I think you can trust him.

Edit:

And Marco Arment’s review. He’s never pulled punches when it comes to Apple’s
hardware, their development tools, or the quality of the OS frameworks. He’s
gushing over the review unit.

[https://marco.org/2019/11/13/mbp16](https://marco.org/2019/11/13/mbp16)

~~~
hombre_fatal
The issue with the keyboard is whether it's good after a month or more of use,
not how good it is fresh out of the box.

I thought the previous macbook pro felt great for a week out of the box. Then
switches started breaking and keycaps started coming off within the first
three months.

In fact, the issue seemed to be that it feeling good out of the box was the
only testing Apple did on it.

~~~
scarface74
True.

But neither Gruber nor Marco Arment [1] liked it out of the box. Marco did buy
one - he buys everything. You can listen to his review on the latest
Accidental Tech Podcast.

[1] just for those who don’t know, Arment is probably one of the best known
indie IOS developers and the creator of Instapaper and the first developer for
Tumblr.

------
mcv
A co-worker is really impressed with all the improvements, but they seem to
mostly be improvements over previous poor ideas from Apple, that other brands
already had or never abandoned.

I admit, a 16" screen in a 15" body sounds really nice. But most of this is
stuff other brands already had.

~~~
Klonoar
The other brands don't have macOS. Running a Mac isn't just hardware.

People were annoyed because they don't want to run a different OS. Yes, you
could get cheaper/powerful hardware somewhere else... but it's not macOS.
Hackintoshes need not apply here.

~~~
mcv
And that's the big thing that keeps surprising me: that there's no laptop
maker that produces high quality laptops with their own custom super nice
Linux-based but Mac OS-like OS on it. Everybody seems content saddling their
hardware with Windows.

Thing is, Mac OS isn't as great as it used to be either. They used to be
brilliant developer laptops, but Apple seems to want everybody in their walled
garden.

~~~
IMTDb
> that there's no laptop maker that produces high quality laptops with their
> own custom super nice Linux-based but Mac OS-like OS on it

That would be System 76
[https://system76.com/laptops/adder](https://system76.com/laptops/adder) with
their pop OS linux distro [https://system76.com/pop](https://system76.com/pop)

~~~
kitsunesoba
PopOS is great but I think system76 needs to design their laptops from scratch
instead of relabeling Clevo laptops if they’re serious about challenging
Apple. Their laptops have the specs, but the fit and finish is just not there.

~~~
Finnucane
I have a Clevo laptop (a few years old now) and even at the time, it was not
exactly state of the art in terms of weight, battery life, etc. It's proven to
be a fairly tough beast (even having fallen off my bike and lived). It is,
unlike many new laptops, relatively easy to open up for upgrades and repair.
Getting Apple's 'fit and finish' means a closed box.

~~~
violinist
That's true now, but it doesn't have to be. Before the retina MacBook Pro, the
MacBook Pro used to be one of the easiest laptops to service. Opening it up,
it was very easy to access almost every component.

~~~
Finnucane
Those days aren't coming back.

------
shadykiller
I love the USB C/Thunderbolt 3 connector on my Macbook. I just have a single
cable going into my mac from the display which also has the keyboard and mouse
connected to it. The single cable does charging, display and peripherals.

For work, I have this display: LG 5K2k
([https://www.lg.com/us/monitors/lg-34WK95U-W-ultrawide-
monito...](https://www.lg.com/us/monitors/lg-34WK95U-W-ultrawide-monitor))

For a cheaper setup at home: LG 27inch USB C
Monitor([https://www.lg.com/us/monitors/lg-27UK850-W-4k-uhd-led-
monit...](https://www.lg.com/us/monitors/lg-27UK850-W-4k-uhd-led-monitor))

------
saintx
People make a lot of noise about the missing function keys. But the keys that
I miss the most on my 2018 Macbook Pro are the "E" and "SHIFT" keys.

~~~
skrause
I donn't miss any keeys, somee eeveenn work twice as eefficieennt.

~~~
theturtletalks
Wait til the CMD key loses responsiveness. Hate having to CMD+V multiple times
to paste something. Maybe I should just reprogram the option key or go back to
my old Mac where all the keys work flawlessly.

~~~
partisan
This is the most annoying part of their keyboards.

Didn't copy or didn't paste. Or both.

~~~
leevlad
How do you like pasting a TAB into your text editor/terminal every time you
want to switch windows?

------
meed
As much as I appreciate Apple's U turn on the idiotic design of the butterfly
keyboard switches, I still:

\- cannot even begin to understand why these things lack an important
usability feature like MegSafe: there is really absolutely no reason why it
cannot coexist with the ThunderBolt I/O (4 TB ports, one MegSafe: charge it
however the heck you want).

\- find the presence of the castrated TouchBar an offense to users. It seems
they just want to shove it down our throats whether we want it or not. Just
make it optional: I'm sure that there are certain users out there that love it
but every single peer of mine [1] hates the sole idea of something like that.

[1] I'm a software guy in the Valley

~~~
unethical_ban
FWIW I just came up with the idea of a magsafe adapter for male and female
USB-C, and it turns out it already exists for $23 on Amazon. I ordered one.

[https://www.amazon.com/Magnetic-Adapter-Connector-Quick-
Char...](https://www.amazon.com/Magnetic-Adapter-Connector-Quick-
Charge/dp/B07MMKZ8XD/ref=sr_1_3)

------
Traster
It's amazing to see such a positive response to such weak sauce with the
touchbar. Our expectations really have fallen through the floor. There is no
reason the escape key needs to be physical that doesn't also apply to the
function keys. So why has Apple admitted the touchbar doesn't work, but still
forces you to use it for F keys. With this form factor it wouldn't have been
difficult to have function keys as well as a touchbar- but Apple don't seem
interested in actually solving this problem.

I'm very tired of having to settle for serious shortcomings in what used to be
such a great product.

~~~
jmull
> There is no reason the escape key needs to be physical that doesn't also
> apply to the function keys.

IMO, those are completely different.

The sscape key provides access to a fundamental concept, "go back, undo, I
didn't mean it, no!". This even goes beyond humans. E.g, my dogs have the same
concept.

Function keys are abstract in a distended way... they mean, generally, some
function specific to a certain context that doesn't fit into the general
patterns, but is maybe pretty commonly needed in that context.

IMO, the Touch Bar, with text and graphical cues, is better suited. Of course,
various software has been written to the F1-12 abstraction, and physical keys
are nicer to type on, so it's not all good. But I think this is a case of one
step back, two steps forward.

------
heipei
Am I the only one that is scared at the prospect of losing physical keys for
changing volume and brightness? I do this all the time, changing volume
up/down during conference calls, adjusting the brightness when working late at
night. Can you even map the Touch-bar to have "keys" for these instead of the
slider which seems way less precise and direct? Genuinely asking since I'm
still on 2014 MBP.

~~~
benjymo
Yes you can have buttons to change volume and brightness. In fact the icons
next to the slider are buttons you can tap to lower/increase
volume/brightness. Or you can configure them to always show up as buttons
without slider.

~~~
heipei
How accurately can you hit them compared to the physical keys you had before?

~~~
nwienert
I have no problem with those. Maybe 95% or more.

------
maz1b
I'm pleasantly surprised that Apple decided to implement a physical escape
key, the inverted "T" arrangement along with redoing the keyboard.

While I don't know if we should be applauding Apple so heavily, it's good to
see that they "listened" to customer feedback and made these changes. I know
that I'll be looking forward to getting one after my 2015 MBP gives out.

------
rmsaksida
Great, now I hope they make a 13-inch version. There's no reason to sacrifice
mobility in a pro laptop.

~~~
AgloeDreams
Dear god, if Apple ever made a 14 inch (in 13 inch body) with a dedicated GPU,
even if it was thicker to keep the same size battery, take my money.

~~~
anentropic
I too sincerely hope that's coming next year

------
alvern
So the top of the line specs get you:

* 2.4GHz 8‑core 9th‑generation Intel Core i9 processor, Turbo Boost up to 5.0GHz

* 64GB 2666MHz DDR4 memory

* AMD Radeon Pro 5500M with 8GB of GDDR6 memory

* 8TB SSD storage

for $6099USD. I wonder how it will handle the thermals.

~~~
corrigible
I have a similarly-spec'd System76 Oryx Pro that cost less than half. No
soldered DIMM's either :)

~~~
aroch
You really don't though? The top of the line comprable configuration has a
significantly worse display, 75% of the SSD storage (that's also significantly
slower), a worse graphics card and costs ~$4700.

------
jpalomaki
"Built‑in 100‑watt‑hour lithium‑polymer battery"

That is quite respectable! As large battery as possible, instead of saving the
few grams or cubic millimeters.

I'm comparing this to for example Lenovo, which seems to like coming up with
imaginary battery life promises ("The T490 delivers up to 16.1 hours of
battery life") and then cutting the actual battery to minimum.

~~~
AtlasLion
My p50 has 70 whatt/h and as the battery is removable, I have 2 of them.

------
chinhodado
> Featuring a new Magic Keyboard with a redesigned scissor mechanism and 1mm
> travel for a more satisfying key feel, the 16-inch MacBook Pro delivers the
> best typing experience ever in a Mac notebook.

Feels like they claim "best typing experience" every time they release a new
laptop.

~~~
CydeWeys
And it's never true (or hasn't been for awhile at least). It's clear they're
engineering for thinness above all else, usability be damned.

I'm typing on a 2014-era Macbook Pro right now and I doubt any new scissor
keys are gonna feel better than this. All of the newer Macbook Pros I've typed
on have been terrible.

~~~
aequitas
This model is actually 7 mm thicker than the 2019 15".

~~~
aerotwelve
Thank God. I'm so sick of Apple making their machines worse just to shave off
a few nanometers from the chassis.

------
EnderMB
While it's nice to see an opinionated company like Apple admit fault and
revert to what people want, I wonder if this move is too late for many of
those that decided to move away from Apple?

Years ago, I switched to a Surface Book, and while I'm tempted to go back for
this MBP I reckon that a Surface Book update would be enough to kill any
desire for the Mac range. While Apple stagnated, many of the high-end
manufacturers caught up.

~~~
whalesalad
Of course not. The people who complain on HN and switch to the “windows
subsystem for linux” are a fringe minority. The rest of the industry is still
jamming on a Mac.

~~~
AtlasLion
You seem to be living in an all apple bubble. MBP share is tiny when compared
to windows laptops.

~~~
whalesalad
For what industry? You're on HN not SAP daily. The rest of the world
definitely runs on Windows but if you’re building software and reading HN
you’re probably on macOS.

~~~
triceratops
I don't know if that's true. Software devs in consulting shops (especially the
megacorps - Accenture, TCS, Infosys, Cap Gemini) are probably the bulk of
workers that write software. Most of them are likely not on HN but they do
build software and they do it on Windows.

------
DennisP
I wish it had one USB-A. I plug in a mechanical keyboard, and when a job
provided the previous macbook pro, I managed to lose or break a dongle about
once a month.

~~~
bxparks
Yup, the lack of USB-A (and the removal of the ESC key) is the reason I
stopped buying MacBooks after many enjoyable years of using the MBA11, 2 x
MBA13, and the 2015 MBP13 (arguably the best laptop ever made). Every
peripheral that I own is on USB-A. Adding USB-C is great, but why _remove_
USB-A? I just don't get it.

~~~
theklr
Why remove the CD drive? Why remove the floppy disk? They did a cost benefit
analysis and made that risk. There's usb-C to usb-A converters. It's not that
big of a deal as it seems.

~~~
antonyh
I have one device which is USB-C - a mouse. In what world is a mouse better
with USB-C?

As for CD drives, the world moved on to bluray and that has a licensing cost
as well as not fitting with the iTunes strategy of rent-and-never-own. Apple
led, others followed. I'd still use it if it was built-in but not as an
external: too much hassle to balance it on my lap and not drop the drive
ruining the disk.

~~~
asciident
Well for one the connector is better. It's quicker to plug it in if you know
you aren't going to plug it in the wrong way the first time. Second, for my
wireless mouse the charging is faster. Third, the cable itself is slightly
smaller and you don't need to carry around an old USB-A to USB-C cable.

------
bluedino
Marco posted an update earlier -
[https://marco.org/2019/11/13/mbp16](https://marco.org/2019/11/13/mbp16)

------
seanwilson
I'm not against spending money on essential tools of the trade that you keep
for years but carrying around a super expensive laptop makes me feel really
nervous e.g. it could get stolen, dropped, get wet in the rain, drinks spilt
on it.

When I don't need the extra power, I think I'd rather travel with an easy to
replace $900 laptop than a $3,000 one for ease of mind.

~~~
systemtest
It's the opposite for me. I would use the €4000 HP ZBook from work on the
subway or on the street. But I wouldn't use my €1000 mid-2015 MacBook Pro
because I know I wouldn't be able to buy a new one if it got stolen or would
break.

~~~
andbberger
That makes no sense.

~~~
yedpodtrzitko
Money can't buy everything - if they don't make the 2015 chassis anymore (ie.
no Touchbar, which some people still very much prefer), then you cant really
get a replacement for it, no matter the price.

~~~
andbberger
Don't they still sell refurbs? I bought a refurbed 2015 model like last year

------
torstenvl
I am very happy about this and the Mac Pro -- it seems like Apple is finally
admitting where it has room for improvement in hardware.

Which, of course, makes me wonder whether they will ever abandon their hubris
with software. There really ought to be a Rosetta-style compatibility layer
for 32-bit and GC apps in macOS. Sadly, I don't think that will ever happen.
Anyone know whether it's possible to install Mojave on one of these?

I've been a Mac user for thirteen years this month. I'm not sure I can buy
another one.

~~~
8draco8
If your workflow allows for switch then just pull the trigger and buy cheaper
and faster Windows or Linux machine. IMHO Macs are extremely overpriced and
should be bought only by people who are tied to MacOS ecosystem (iOS
development, Final Cut Pro etc.)

------
dreamcompiler
RAM and HD are still soldered down, which means you have to decide up front
how much you want _and_ you have to pay the 3x-4x Apple markup on both. These
are both dealbreakers for me, and the continuing inadequate port situation
just seals the deal. It's a no.

------
luckydata
Is it me or this laptop is eye-wateringly expensive? I'm no Mac noob but it's
getting a little hard to justify the expense to stay in the ecosystem.

~~~
kylec
The stock configurations are exactly the same price as the 15" used to be, but
now with double the storage. So it's actually better value now than it was.

~~~
lowercased
and... I'm feeling it because I just bought the 15" $2799 model 5 months ago,
couldn't justify the extra $ on a 1TB model, and now it's built in. :/

------
csomar
This is too irresistible not to upgrade. I'm more interested in CPU/Memory and
the Graphic card bump is only $100. In total, it should cost $3.900 excluding
taxes (or $2.500 if I "trade in" my current machine). Looking at the
competition, a ThinkPad P53 Mobile Workstation with the 2.3Ghz processor /
32GB of RAM will cost $3.759.

I think the pricing is _very_ competitive, given that the ThinkPad is a giant
box. So even if Lenovo lowers its price in the next iteration of its ThinkPad,
the MacbookPro will quite match up.

Kudos for Apple for doing this!

------
tyingq
Looks like you get your escape key back, that's nice.

~~~
carbocation
I have a Pro at work and dislike its keyboard so much that I still have a 2013
Air at home. This is the first Pro I’ll consider in a long time because of the
Esc key.

------
mrfinks
Why is the touchbar still a thing. I hit the speaker button inadvertently at
least once a day. "Pop!"

~~~
angrygoat
Did you know you can rearrange the buttons for the touchbar? System
Preferences -> Keyboard -> Customise Control Strip.

My bugbear was hitting the siri button by mistake, I swapped that for a 'do
not disturb' button which is harmless when pressed.

~~~
lostgame
The point is we shouldn’t have to be reconfiguring our laptops to make them
usable. :/

I’m so over Apple hardware. Just let me hackintosh it.

~~~
Eldt
By unusable you mean it's possible to hit the wrong key by accident? Having to
go into settings for your preferred layout seems reasonable to me too...

------
chx
Is anyone else wondering about that 8TB SSD bit? Unless they have four M.2
slots which I doubt they must use 4TB SSDs and that'd be QLC which sucks.

~~~
dijit
They don’t do slots. They’ll be soldered onto the board directly, straight
into the T2 chip via PCI-E.

Doesnt speak to the quality of the NAND, probably 3D/QLC though. For density.

~~~
chx
Yeah, I forgot, of course. In that case, who knows, there are 22110 enterprise
4TB SSDs using MLC even -- maybe they have enough space on the board for MLC
or TLC. We will know when iFixit tears one down :)

------
jimnotgym
I had the displeasure to have a quick go on a new Macbook Air.

I decided after some testing that I prefer the keyboard on my calculator.

Then I had to ask what the point was of making a laptop so thin that it can't
have any real ports, then having to carry a bag full of adapters?

I'll stick with my Thinkpad T480

~~~
hcurtiss
Totally agreed. My T480s is an amazing machine. High performance, great
keyboard, every imaginable port (RJ45!), excellent battery life. I can't
believe it doesn't get more love.

------
manaskarekar
Only a few more iterations before we have the complete row of Fn Keys!

That said, I'm glad they bumped up the base to 512GB and the keyboard is
improved.

------
jmull
I loved the marketing copy in the "New Magic Keyboard" section...

Wow! A _physical_ escape key?!? A scissor mechanism?!? Will the innovation
ever cease?!!?!

But more seriously, kudos to them for the full 180 fix.

(Well, I know some hate the existence of the Touch Bar, but I think it has
very interesting potential which perhaps could be realized with its major
fatal flaw finally fixed.)

------
Klonoar
If this holds up, then man... am I happy.

I ran the gamut looking for comparable laptops recently in an effort to figure
out what I'd do if they didn't get it together, and the options really vary
and nothing feels as nice.

------
kevingadd
It's really something that one of the first promotional photos on the page is
a macbook hooked up to audio gear through daisy-chained dongles and adapters
instead of just a regular USB or ethernet cable like it would've been in the
old days. The price of thin.

------
ogre_codes
The big problem with the Touch Bar for me is the difficulty building muscle
memory because it's only used part of the time. I have to learn 2 workflows
"Docked" and roving. Since for me I spend so much more time docked, the Touch
Bar patterns never get added to my muscle memory. If there was a Touch Bar
based external keyboard I would at least have the chance to try it full time.

------
Miltnoid
This is a little tangential, but does anybody find it weird that, even on
desktop, the article seems hyperoptimized for mobile? The huge margins made it
feel like I was reading on a phone emulator instead of on a desktop.

~~~
SmellyGeekBoy
I did glance up and the address bar to double check that I hadn't ended up on
their mobile site. Very odd design.

------
Ecco
I was so hoping for a constant bezel width. Unfortunately the top bezel is
still a lot larger than the side ones. I know it's because of the camera, but
that makes for an awkward looking device…

~~~
8draco8
Can you elaborate on why constant bezel width is so important? Most devices
(phones, tablets, TVs, laptops) don't have constant bezel width.

~~~
SmellyGeekBoy
Most devices look terrible as a result.

~~~
8draco8
That's your personal opinion. I don't like thinning of the machines (and
that's a opinion) but I have actual reasons for it (overheating, battery size,
upgradebility). Saying that uneven bezels are bad because you don't like them
is like saying that recycling is bad because I don't like multiple bins in
front of my house.

------
spyspy
Made a special point to request an Air instead of a Pro when I started my new
job recently. Office manager was confused and insisted everyone else was using
Pros but I stayed strong. No regrets.

------
bithavoc
16 matches for the word “ever” in that page.

I love the Esc key is back though and hopefully it doesn’t throttle as much as
my current 2017 MBP.

~~~
choward
10 for "world's" which includes "world's best" "world's most". A very cringey
read if you ask me yet people eat this stuff up.

------
byte1918
In the UK and the `Buy` button redirects to a not found page.

[https://www.apple.com/uk/shop/go/macbook_pro/select](https://www.apple.com/uk/shop/go/macbook_pro/select)
this 404s for me.

~~~
codnee
It seems to be a global issue.

Edit: Replaced the _ with a - and it works

------
nottorp
As a person burned by the "improved" 2018 keyboard, I'd wait a couple months
to see how sensitive to dust this one is.

It's not the typing experience that was the main problem with the previous
keyboard, it was that you couldn't use the laptop outdoors...

------
6ue7nNMEEbHcM
MKBHD already has an overview video on this:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uDAv4qOU_04](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uDAv4qOU_04)
(with apparently real hardware).

------
blevin
The line about the “Apple-designed rubber dome” sticks out. Why even say that?
Did Apple not design the other bits? My sympathy for whomever over there is
trying to navigate the whole keyboard situation and messaging.

------
Tehchops
Keyboard re-design and bringing back the ESC key will be huge.

64GB of RAM in a laptop... yowza.

~~~
AtlasLion
Typing this from my two year old thinkpad with 64GB.

~~~
Clubber
Even though I dislike their now standard 16:9 ratio, Thinkpads are top tier.
I've been using them since the late 90s. I think the 770ED was my first one. I
still have a W500 that's in use from time to time.

~~~
AtlasLion
Same here, I still own many generations I now use a P50, almost went for the
p52 with 128GB.

------
noarchy
It is unfortunate to see the jump from 16 GB to 32 GB of ram cost so much. I
realize this isn't anything new for Apple, but I would have hoped for the base
16-inch model to have 32 GB at this point.

------
djaychela
After much deliberation, I bought a 2017 13" MBP, upspecced to 512GB SSD and
16GB RAM. While I've not had a complete failure from the keyboard, it did need
looking at at the Apple Store when it also had the entire display assembly
replaced because the keyboard had damaged the screen - despite me looking
after it well, always putting it in a soft slip case and then a laptop bag.

While I've liked some elements of the design, it's not (to me) a Pro piece of
kit, and I've sine replaced it with a 2016 15" MBP which is much better built
and doesn't need extra dongles to connect to everyday devices (and has
magsafe, which is the best piece of design I've seen in many years).

Given this performance, I'll never buy a new Macbook again - particularly
given all the issues about thermal throttling, battery life and indeed the way
that macOS seems now to be going.

Don't get me wrong, there are elements of the 2017 MBP that I love - it looks
amazing, the screen is fantastic and it's just so precisely made. But the lack
of ports, the lack of ruggedness, the keyboard and the performance outweigh
any 'look, shiny!' feeling I have about it - so much so that I've not sold it
because I feel like I'm stitching the buyer up - even though they've not held
their price compared to previous models, which shows that people know this to
be the case, and the keyboard still has the 4 year warranty in place.

------
pcr910303
OMG, I'm very depressed as a user who loves the butterfly mechanism. I hate
the wobbly feeling that the scissor mechanism produces. Apple didn't need to
return to the scissor mechanism, it should have reiterated the design. I'm
very disappointed that Apple just gave up & used the safe way of regressing
back.

It feels like Apple is losing the spirit of doing things itself, whether other
people dislikes it. Apple is more and more becoming a usual company that just
does what consumers demands. And I'm sad with that.

~~~
zellyn
“And they didn’t throw away the good parts of the butterfly keyboard —
including excellent backlighting and especially the increased stability, where
keys go down flat even when pressed off-center. The keys on this keyboard
don’t wobble like the keys on pre-2016 MacBook Pro keyboards do.” —
[https://daringfireball.net/2019/11/16-inch_macbook_pro_first...](https://daringfireball.net/2019/11/16-inch_macbook_pro_first_impressions)

~~~
pcr910303
Wow, that's pretty great! I'm not sure I'll change my mind until I actually
touch them, but that's pretty great, kind of removes my stereotypes of scissor
keyboards.

------
zackkatz
I’m frustrated by the 720p camera. That is not good enough quantity.

~~~
SmellyGeekBoy
Would you prefer it had 2 cameras?

------
w1nst0nsm1th
I simply don't get it. NH reader base are usually well versed in technology
and as such we should expect them to get some attitude towards their computer.

We have basically a computer which will never allow you to install what you
want except if that software is signed by apple in a process taking 1 minute
and said to garantee an extra level of security (how this process is able to
check on any security issue in 1 minute is beyond my understanding) to user.

So they simply lose the ability to install anhthing not signed by apple. Old
programs, a ton of open source programs. If Apple decide tomorrow to stop its
signin program (and it will happen soon or later), user will be basically
stuck with a computer limited to install Mac Appstore Software.

This is as significant as the fact there was a nodejs issue regarding the
inability of the team behind it to distribute new release of nodejs because
apple server simply refused to sign the package that contained the binary.

Apple computers are destined to become giant iPhone once apple decide to ditch
apple notarization program, and the user will be leftwith absolutelly no
control of what's happen in their computer like what is the case in ios
device.

How someone with technical education can be satisfied with such scenario is
beyond me. AApple computer are simply becoming Grandma computer.

------
bori5
Over 1500 comments and not a single word that MATLAB runs 2x faster on this
new Mac than before.

------
pkamb
The "Inverted-T" arrow keys here are _way_ better than the previous version
with full-height Left/Right but half-height Up/Down.

But I've always preferred the "6-key" layout, as seen on ThinkPads. Half-
height arrow keys, but then an additional key on top of both Left and Right.

Commonly marked as Page Up / Page Down, but easily reconfigurable to 2
additional arbitrary hotkeys.

Looks nice and symmetrical enough for Apple. Wish they would use it.

------
KenanSulayman
I'm sure they're still rolling this out.. the "buy" button on the MacBook page
leads to "Page Not Found".[0] Unfortunate, because I've been waiting for the
16-inch ever since the first rumor came up..

[0]
[https://www.apple.com/us/shop/go/macbook_pro/select](https://www.apple.com/us/shop/go/macbook_pro/select)

~~~
Someone1234
Does this work?

[https://www.apple.com/shop/buy-mac/macbook-
pro?product=MVVK2...](https://www.apple.com/shop/buy-mac/macbook-
pro?product=MVVK2LL/A&step=config)

[https://www.apple.com/shop/buy-mac/macbook-
pro?product=MVVJ2...](https://www.apple.com/shop/buy-mac/macbook-
pro?product=MVVJ2LL/A&step=config)

------
bearsnowstorm
I’m going to wait on this until _at least_ a few months have elapsed and the
reviews / forums indicate the keyboard is fine.

------
whalesalad
I have a one year old 15” that I’m super bummed about now. It’s a pretty
powerful machine w/ 32gb of ram but I wish I could have waited for this.

Problems I currently have that are annoying:

\- I miss the 13” air form factor a lot. I knew it would be a trade off for
the performance, but using this beast anywhere but on a desk is pretty tough.
On a plane you need a first class seat to open it. It gets super super hot
with most workloads.

\- there is an obnoxious electrical whine coming from the mainboard and it
might be the SSD. Lots of videos on YouTube show that the ssd actually makes a
lot of noise and almost sounds like it’s a physical disk. Poor manufacturing
from Toshiba.

I guess that’s really it. I just wish I could use it on the couch without
burning my thighs. I don’t have any qualms with the keyboard or touchbar. I
have caps lock remapped to escape so that doesn’t bug me. Also the touchbar is
in “old school mode” or whatever so it looks like a regular function key bar
on a non touchbar Mac.

------
barrowclift
Genuinely curious, why did so many developers ask for the return of the
physical Escape key when you could easily re-map it to caps lock? Before this
was an officially supported option, I always hated having to do big hand-
shimmies every time I needed to press the escape key, which is quite often for
programs like vim!

~~~
oddthink
Because caps lock is already control. :-)

~~~
pault
Hold for control, tap for escape. You'll never go back. :)

------
musicale
I wonder if they fixed the trackpad? The previous trackpad's palm rejection
never worked properly.

It always surprised me how broken the palm rejection was on the recent MacBook
Pro since previous models (2012-2015) running the same macOS version had no
such issues; moreover, palm rejection also works fine on the iPad and iPhone.

------
baybal2
I'm amazed how accurate the rumour mill is in Shenzhen.

First heard about it back in March, when all OEMs were scrambling to make
lookalike products before Apple's release.

Would be interesting to know if they went back to Samsung panels from LG. I
remember Samsung salesmen were pushing hard their new 500 and 600 nit panels a
year ago.

------
kls
Funny enough I just replaced my MBP 15 with a Sager notebook due to two of the
issues they seem to have addressed with this release. First and foremost was
lack of ram I have to virtualize a lot of specialty hardware for one of my
clients so that I can simulate a total environment on a single machine. There
can literally be 1000's of nodes running custom embedded systems. 16GB was
stretching it on my last MBP and 32 just got me back in the game with my 15. I
really needed 64GB and my new Sager has the ability to go to 128GB.

The second was the move away from the 17 MBP I know they are not popular and I
know the reasons for killing it, but I develop on the road a lot and the extra
screen space helps when a second monitor is not practical.

Had this been out 6 months ago I may have reconsidered my switch to a PC. That
being said I am happy with my switch.

------
Flockster
> Mac Pro starts at $5,999 and Pro Display XDR starts at $4,999.

Is this the first time we got a starting price on the Mac Pro?

~~~
8draco8
No, I'm pretty sure the starting price for Mac Pro was announced when the
machine was revealed.

------
m0zg
Pricing is shot across the bow to Lenovo: higher end configs of Carbon X1
Extreme have similar prices, even though they aren't really comparable in
terms of brand recognition and in some aspects of hardware quality. Good. Then
there's also the fact that X1 Extreme is troublesome when it comes to Linux
compatibility, so if you want a proper Unix-like experience, Mac is still one
of the best options, although Microsoft is really trying nowadays. If someone
from Lenovo is reading this: I like Carbon X1. I'd buy X1 Extreme if it ran
Linux as well as plain X1 does. I'm not price sensitive. But Windows is not
really viable for me when it comes to professional use.

Looks like Apple will be getting another $3K or so of my money 6 months from
now after other people beta test the new MBP for bugs.

------
radres
"The new Magic Keyboard also features a physical Escape key..." well that's
what I call a feat.

~~~
robert_foss
Truly an innovation.

------
abvdasker
When they get rid of the touchbar that's when I'll upgrade from my 2013 MBP
and not a day sooner.

------
manaskarekar
This is very close in dimensions to the 2015 15" rMBP. The thermals should be
much improved.

~~~
npongratz
Thanks for pointing this out! In fact, I was pleasantly surprised to find this
16-inch model is very slightly smaller in each dimension than the 2015 15-inch
rMBP.

2019 16-inch, per [https://www.apple.com/macbook-
pro-16/specs/](https://www.apple.com/macbook-pro-16/specs/) :

Height: 0.64 inch (1.62 cm), Width: 14.09 inches (35.79 cm), Depth: 9.68
inches (24.59 cm), Weight: 4.3 pounds (2.0 kg)

2015 15-inch, per
[https://support.apple.com/kb/SP719?locale=en_US](https://support.apple.com/kb/SP719?locale=en_US)
:

Height: 0.71 inch (1.8 cm), Width: 14.13 inches (35.89 cm), Depth: 9.73 inches
(24.71 cm), Weight: 4.49 pounds (2.04 kg)

------
megablast
> You can spec this machine up to 64GB of RAM and 8TB (not a typo) of storage
> on the SSD. That’s just a massive amount of storage — and it will cost
> $6,099 to get a fully loaded 16-inch MacBook Pro.

Wow, that is a lot of computer. Even the base model is 16gb and 512gb.

------
jordache
"The 16-inch MacBook Pro features a new Magic Keyboard with a refined scissor
mechanism that delivers 1mm of key travel and a stable key feel, as well as an
Apple-designed rubber dome that stores more potential energy for a responsive
key press"

Wow..

------
sdan
So basically they made what the 2016 lineup should've been.

In November 2019.

OK.

------
rb2k_
"Today, Apple also announced that the all-new Mac Pro"

"Mac Pro starts at $5,999 and Pro Display XDR starts at $4,999. Both will be
available to order in December through apple.com."

They keep announcing it, yet you still can't buy it. I wonder why.

~~~
ihuman
Is this the first time they said what month it was coming out? I thought until
now they just said, "2019".

~~~
rb2k_
Fair point. I guess there were only 2 months left in 2019 :D

------
jeswin
> Inverted-T arrow keys! A millimeter of key travel!

Which is still quite poor - Thinkpads offer between 1.3 to 1.9mm of travel
depending on the model. It is surprising that a $1Trillion computer hardware
company cannot design the best keyboard in the world while tiny Lenovo seems
to have done much better.

Why would a "pro" user care more thinness and form than the usability of the
primary input mechanism?

Add: It's not merely the travel. Lenovo keyboards are so slightly concave
which offer perceivably better support for finger tips. The key surface also
has a rougher texture instead of being flat, smooth and glossy, which I hope
more manufacturers will emulate.

~~~
jmull
Well, from someone who's had to rely on his work-issued Thinkpad a lot over
the last week... Thinkpad keyboard are complete crap. Those keys can travel
all the way into a garbage can for all I care.

I have no idea if this new laptop's keyboard is any good, but it would have to
take several steps back before you get to lenovo. One arrow key pops on and
off as I use it. (This lappy is 4 months old and I've rarely done anything but
remote into it so the keyboard should be pristine.) The escape key needs to be
pressed extra hard -- beyond the "click" \-- to register sometimes. Also, the
right-click area on the trackpad expands and contracts mysteriously (best just
to turn that off.)

~~~
asdf21
That sounds like the laptop was dropped or had a drink spilled on it or
something, I don't think you should stereotype the entire brand based on it.

~~~
jmull
Well, OK, but it hasn't since I've had it.

I guess you're blaming Dave the IT guy who gave it to me.

------
pmontra
I'm not a fan of Apple but there are a few things I like of this laptop.
Starting with the most important:

\- It's got no number pad, so the screen, the keyboard and the touch pad are
aligned with the nose of the user, which doesn't have to shift the laptop to
the right to work and have 2/3 of the screen to his/her right.

\- It's got a slightly larger screen than my HP ZBook but it's narrower and
lighter: 14.09 inches (35.79 cm) and 4.3 pounds (2.0 kg)

\- It can go up to 8 TB of storage and 64 GB of RAM (but there are laptops
with 128 GB in 2019).

I didn't investigate if it can be upgraded (RAM and SSD) or if everything is
soldered.

------
alexeiz
Wow! The "New Magic Keyboard." I wonder what it is. Oh, wait, it's the old
scissor keyboard. "Largest Retina display ever." With 226ppi... But the Esc
key is back! I'm so excited! /s

------
devin
I bought one. If they hadn’t produced this I would have walked on Apple
hardware. The only thing that is jaw dropping to me: the price tag.

I’m surprised to not see people talking about it in the comments. 3900 US
without Apple care? Holy god. I bought the max spec or close to it in 2015 for
800+$ less. The differences are negligible, and then I spent an additional
200$ on dongles I don’t want. I’m probably not done. When all was said and
done I spent 4600$ on this machine. I make my living on a computer and I need
the pro part of the MacBook Pro, but it is still a really jaw dropping price
for what it is.

~~~
devin
Total difference in cost? ~1500$. That seems a ridiculous difference for
modest hardware improvement and the requisite gaggle of adapters. I’m happy
with the machine, but it’s probably 500$ more than what I would have been
comfortable paying for the hardware. In the past I remember feeling like what
I was getting was worth it. In this case I feel price gouged.

------
jonplackett
Finally a 1TB SSD is not eye-wateringly expensive. Even the base model is 512.

~~~
peruvian
Kinda wish it was $200 more for 32GB of RAM instead of $400 - my only
complaint.

~~~
jonplackett
Yeah agreed. I have 16GB in the MacBook Pro I bought back in 2013. Surely in 6
years a doubling of ram should not be too much to ask without breaking the
bank.

------
overgard
How long until they walk back the touchbar though? I figure if it was useful
to anyone it would be cloned by now. I cant imagine they're holding onto that
feature for any other reason than to save face.

~~~
mikewhy
There have been multiple variations in other laptops. How successful they are,
I can't comment on.

Screen in touchpad: [https://www.microsoft.com/en-ca/p/asus-
zenbook-14-ux434fl-ub...](https://www.microsoft.com/en-ca/p/asus-
zenbook-14-ux434fl-ub76t-laptop/92QGN1B30DBF/9X2V)

Screen above keyboard: [https://www.microsoft.com/en-ca/p/asus-zenbook-pro-
duo-lapto...](https://www.microsoft.com/en-ca/p/asus-zenbook-pro-duo-
laptop/8S9CL2FTP7RV/4L5T)

------
melling
Go from 16GB to 32GB of RAM and 1TB to 2TB and you have over $800 in upgrades.

I put 16GB in my 2013 Mac Book Pro. The extra RAM is key to getting a few more
years of use.

An external SSD would be fine but Mac laptops never have enough ports.

------
alexashka
I'm a bit surprised no one has talked about the price. Starting at 2400$US?
That's... a lot.

For anyone who is going to use this as their primary computer, the real price
is 2800$.

That's a lot... Who is the end consumer here? Folks who are computer
illiterate and want 'the best' laptop apple has to offer?

Laptops promote poor posture, can't match desktop speeds and are expensive!
Their use-case to me is limited to business people who hop from meeting to
meeting all day, but then you don't need the horsepower and will be fine with
a 500$ option.

------
tmaly
I am really stoked about this. I am typing this on a 15 inch MB Pro. I
survived the keyboard issues by not buying a new MB Pro.

There is always this lurking sense that if my existing MB Pro dies, that I
would have to transition to something with a defect.

This new model has piqued my interest. I am excited to see that it has a bump
in memory. That has always been something that has not sat well with me. Newer
software demanding more and more memory while models of the MB Pro has been
released with no increases in RAM.

------
arshbot
The lack of a larger screen size coupled with the keyboard deficiencies are
what drove me away from macOS to various linux distros.

While I'm immensely happy with my new OS - a lot more could be said about the
hardware ( especially when running larger screens on pc that just can't keep
up battery wise ).

This is a phenomenal step in the right direction, but one that comes too late
for me. At this point I can't begin to consider jumping back until macOS sees
some substantial improvements.

------
dang
Related:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21523736](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21523736)

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21526058](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21526058)
has few comments but points to a long interview with Phil Schiller that has
some interesting things but (brace yourself) says basically nothing about the
touch bar.

------
locusofself
This looks really nice and I want one, but 1mm of key travel doesn't seem like
something to brag about. I know it's a personal preference thing, but 1mm ?

------
usaphp
Those full sized arrows on current 15” MacBooks were driving me crazy! It’s
great to see them put half sized left and right arrows back! I’ll Definitely b
buying it

------
whalabi
The current MacBook pros are a menace for the sounds those keyboards make
alone.

I was stunned that no one at Apple heard that ridiculously obnoxious CLACK
CLACK CLACKING and didn't think we would do something about that.

Does anyone inside Apple know how that disaster of a keyboard came to be? How
did logic and rationality not see it turfed the moment it was trialled?

(This new keyboard claims to be quieter. Although calling it "magic" is just
so pretentious and so.. Apple)

------
wcfields
All those specs and yet only has 802.11ac, and not 802.11ax?

------
eecc
I like it, finally Apple although I’ll still wait for the 13” to downsize (the
touchbar is still just an excuse to drive the price up.)

The real issue here is the intel chip. New vulnerabilities have just been
found and the company isn’t addressing them so I’m starting to question the
platform.

What about an AMD machine. It would be cooler, slower yet un-throttled so
about the same performance. But it wouldn’t be a sitting duck.

------
IgorPartola
Off topic, but can someone explain to my why their releases start this way:

> Cupertino, California — Apple today unveiled an all-new 16-inch MacBook Pro
> — the world’s best pro notebook

It’s on apple.com for fuck’s sake and if you don’t know that Apple is based in
California, do you really care? Why do they write this stuff as if it’s some
other entity writing about Apple as opposed to “today we are pleased to
announce...”?

~~~
qz_
The idea is that press releases that look like articles make lazy journalists
less critical. Because the phrasing is already very similar to the end result
the journalist has to produce, the path of least resistance is to simply copy
as much as possible. Lots of big comapanies do this nowadays.

~~~
ngrilly
Exactly.

------
Simulacra
I've been scared away from Apple for some time. It started with the touch
function keys, then the butterfly keyboard, reducing ports, reducing the
machine to near throw-away status when the warranty is up, while remaining
very expensive. Never say never but I don't see anything here worth pulling me
back, when their are PC laptops that could do the job just as good, perhaps
better.

------
JohnGB
I'm still using the last Macbook Pro without a touchbar, and plan on not
upgrading until either this dies, or Apple decide to make a laptop with a full
keyboard. If it dies before that, it's Hackintosh or Linux time.

It honestly astounds me that the device that has traditionally been adopted
most by developers has lost so much of what developers need in favour of
gimmicks.

~~~
BigJ1211
As a developer I rarely use the function keys, I only need it for debugging
purposes. I much prefer ergonmic keyboards, so I rarely use the one on my
laptops. But whether it's Windows/Linux/MacOS I rarely require the function
keys. As a mechanical keyboard enthusiast I have them in a different layer for
the rare occasion that I actually "need" them. I have far less gripe with
having my mousehand of the keyboard when debugging than I do when typing
regularly.

You can easily use a tool like
[https://pqrs.org/osx/karabiner/](https://pqrs.org/osx/karabiner/) or `brew
cask install karabiner-elements` to remap fn + number keyrow to be the
function keys.

Offtopic: Typing this on a Redox Wireless keyboard, it's great for developing
on. It's a split ergonomic columnly staggered ortholinear keyboard, the []
keys are in the middle of the split parts. And you have thumb clusters.

------
spurgu
For those of you mentioning the esc key, I suggest mapping capslock to esc,
I've been doing that for years now (both Linux and Mac) and it's awesome.
Except when you're using someone else's computer and constantly turn capslock
on and off...

Edit: You can do this natively since Mojave(?) in the keyboard settings
without having to resort to something like Karabiner.

~~~
wiredfool
Unless that’s where you’ve already remapped ctrl.

~~~
tayhobbs
I have both using Karabiner-Elements. Escape when pressed alone, ctrl if
pressed with something else.

~~~
1_player
I had that setup, then I noticed something didn't feel quite right on some
apps: apparently sometimes I tend to press Ctrl to enter some key combination,
depress it immediately after and it fires the ESC key, which might have
unintended consequences (i.e. closing a window I was reading)

------
cpr
Boy, every new Apple laptop release people harp endlessly about the cost.

Look, people, Apple high-end laptops generally cost $3-4K. And if you think
that's high, you're forgetting that (in many of our cases) you're running your
whole business on that.

$3-4K every couple of years should be in the noise. Cost relative to other
laptops has little meaning, if you want high-end Apple gear.

------
MaddAgent
I've been holding onto my 2015 MacBook pro now for ages, waiting and waiting.

I'd like to see the touchbar disappear completely, and the function keys
return - but the real escape key and no butterfly keyboard is enough of a
change that I think I can finally buy another MacBook!!

It was definitely off the cards for a few years there, and I was starting to
wonder what I was going to do!

------
murgindrag
I think my question will be ports. The article didn't say what they broke
there. Will it only support Bluetooth headphones? Bluetooth monitors? No USB?
No SD card slot?

Especially for a 16" laptop, I'd like something without a mess of dongles and
adapters. The 2015 15" Macbook was pretty good in this department, but Apple
is on a port-cutting rampage.

~~~
eugeniub
Well the tech specs page is up: [https://www.apple.com/macbook-
pro-16/specs/](https://www.apple.com/macbook-pro-16/specs/)

4 USB-C ports and a headphone jack. Same as before.

------
CM30
Hmm, so they improved the keyboard? Kinda makes me wish I'd waited a bit
longer to buy a MacBook Pro, since I think I would have preferred this version
of the keyboard to the one on the version I'm using right now.

Still, the important thing is that Apple seemingly listened to feedback. Too
many double down on bad decisions regardless of feedback.

------
travisgriggs
For years, I have bemoaned the demise of the 17" MBP. 16" with small bezels is
a worthy compromise. Thank you Apple.

------
crusso
I have a TouchBar MacBook and I was pretty peeved about the escape key at
first, but once I remapped the caps lock key to escape I never looked back.
The caps lock key is worthless anyway.

That said, the only cool use for the TouchBar that I've noted is with iTerm2.
Changing terminal colors on the fly from the TouchBar is actually kinda nifty.

~~~
twic
BUT DOESN'T THAT MAKE POSTING ON FORUMS HARD?!!

~~~
spurgu
FOR THAT YOU JUST TYPE WHILE YOUR LEFT HAND PINKY IS RESTING ON SHIFT!

------
ngcazz
I’m totally not regretting upgrading to this year’s 15 inch model.

Just a huge bit.

Apple do take your current model back for credit but given I’ll only get 900
pounds for it (presumably much more in the USA!) I guess I’ll stick to it for
now. I’d be happy to pay a few hundreds for the upgrade; it’s unjustifiable to
upgrade for full price minus a 900 pound discount.

------
jmspring
The Touch Bar is still there and horrible. The price on the 16" model is
downright insane. Add some customizations past the bare bottom and you are up
in the stratosphere.

I'll be sticking with my 13" 2015 MBP for the foreseeable future. I'll just
build up a home machine that I can log into and do some heavier workloads on.

------
dharma1
Looks pretty good, I think I'll wait until the new microled displays though.

The thermal design updates are welcome, that was seriously crippling previous
Macbook Pros.

I'd love to know how long and what clock rate the 8-core 16" MBP can sustain
multi-core workloads running at 100% core utilisation. My guess is for a
minute or so at 3.5ghz+.

------
gfiorav
Windows development -- specially if you develop with a terminal editor -- has
become very feasible with WSL.

I was scared away from Apple by the keyboards and found a new dev home in
Windows. I've tried to go back for personal projects, but it's just too much
conversion for very little compensation.

I think I'm done with Apple macs

------
cracker_jacks
I agree that the improvements like the ESC key and 16" screen are good things.

But is it strange to anyone else that a company that prides itself on being
innovative and motto is "think different" is parading around a screen size
change and a keyboard regression as the biggest selling points for a product
launch?

~~~
peruvian
This release is essentially a "we messed up, this is what you wanted all
long", but they can't say that so they're using the regular MBP marketing
talk.

Not hating - I am getting this laptop.

~~~
dasloop
Plus the updated CPU, RAM and GPU associated with a hardware refresh. They can
be seen also as good selling points :)

~~~
hu3
Intel processor riddled with vulnerabilities over AMD's 7nm state of the art
processors which are cooler and more energy efficient?

Overpriced soldered RAM?

AMD GPU that's basicaly useless for ML instead of NVidia?

None of these are good selling points.

------
fhood
Not a ton of new information presented here, but it is nice to hear that the
reviewer quite likes the new keyboard.

------
Tepix
The screen resolution of 3072x1920 (224.6ppi) is triple 1024x640.

Apple states that it also scales to

    
    
      •  1920x1200 (3:5)
    
      •  1680x1050 (48:25)
    
      •  1280x800  (12:5)
    

which obviously are all fractions. With the small pixel size (0.1122mm) it
probably doesn't matter that much.

The 16" display has a 16:10 aspect ratio.

------
jasoneckert
It's nice to see Apple fixing their keyboard issues (they don't normally bow
to customer pressure).

I just wish they would allow Linux to be installed natively on it (with
supported touchbar drivers, etc.).

And a small part of me secretly wants Apple to release a MBP with a
TrackPoint, just to see people's reactions ;-)

------
ilaksh
It just seems like, for people who aren't wealthy, it might make more sense to
buy a gaming laptop and get very close to or better specs/performance and save
$500 or maybe even $1000. Although I guess the reason people waste money like
that is partly just to prove they can waste money.

------
electricslpnsld
Is there any hope of Apple including an Nvidia card in a future laptop or has
that ship completely sailed?

------
classified
Too little too late. By now, Apple has lost me. The only Apple HW I might
(theoretically) still buy is a Mac Pro, but not in practice, since you can't
get it with a 32-bit capable OS any more. So fuck Apple. I'll have to get
Windoze hardware and put a BSD Unix on it.

------
css
Buried in this press release:

> Today, Apple also announced that the all-new Mac Pro... will be available in
> December

------
deepaksurti
```

def test_apple_is_back_for_pros():

    
    
        16_mbp = 16MBP()
    
        16_mbp_specs = 16_mbp.specs
    
        self.assertTrue(16_mbp_specs.thicker)
    
        self.assertTrue(16_mbp_specs.escape_key)
    
        self.assertTrue(16_mbp_specs.larger_battery)
    
        self.assertTrue(16_mbp_specs.better_kb)
    

```

------
rootusrootus
Sweet, a MBP that lives up to the name again. Congrats on listening to your
customers, Apple. Too bad for me, I gave in and 'upgraded' my 2011 to a top of
the line used 2015 MBP about six months ago, now I kinda want this new one. Ah
well

------
mxxx
Interesting that the tag line is "world's best". I feel as though they usually
go with something more quantitative like "fastest" or "most powerful", etc.
"Best" obviously being completely subjective.

------
thrower123
The 17" Pro from around 2011 was the world's best pro notebook. The things are
still pretty capable beasts, even today.

Apple could do well to dust off that design, toss in an updated processor, and
put whatever price tag they wanted on it.

------
notadoc
Big plus to regain the Escape key.

Hopefully the new keyboard is reliable.

The Touch Bar is forgettable and a row of physical function keys would be an
improvement. I don't know any "pro" user who likes the Touch Bar or who wants
to look down at the keys when typing or interact with a microscopic touch
screen.

Still puzzled by the lack of ports for a pro laptop. It's 16" with a huge
body, not particularly thin or light, and they couldn't add two USB-A, SD
slot, HDMI? The age of a dozen dongles continues.

64GB RAM option is a big plus, though the prices are 2x-3x market.

Presumably the SSD is still soldered onboard, which basically makes these
unrepairable and disposable premium priced laptops.

Overall far better than what it replaced, but still missing some key features
from the 2015 MBP line which remains the best Mac laptop ever made.

Will be interesting to see if they ditch the 13" and move to a 14" with
similar specs.

------
peeters
I didn't have a touchbar but wouldn't the escape key have been the easiest
non-physical key to reach without looking, due to its indexed location? Or was
the problem that it wasn't always exposed by the software?

~~~
zelos
I was constantly bringing up the help view in Vim by hitting F1 instead of
Esc. Decades of muscle memory wouldn't allow me to actually use Caps Lock
remapped as ecape.

------
ngcc_hk
Got my 2019 top spec but then revert to get a macbook old stock for daily use.
The macbook 12 inch is great. Work nicely with my ipad. Can’t do two screen
even the 2nd screen did show. But all is fine. The 15 cold feet.

------
kraig911
Still wish it had a touch screen. The physical escape key is nice. The fact I
can hackintosh a touch screen dell xps to see if my app's gestures work etc is
just so crazy why they won't give in.

------
Reason077
Why has Apple gone with Touch ID on Macs, while moving to Face ID on iOS
devices?

Is there some technical reason why Face ID isn't a good fit? I can't see cost
being an issue, nor physical space for the sensor.

------
j45
With the 15" MBP being EOLed into a 16", it's hard not to wonder if the 13.3"
displays might become 14". Makes a big difference at the size, as the X1
Carbon is able to prove.

------
slics
“ The new Magic Keyboard also features a physical Escape key” - really? It was
there as a physical escape key, Apple removed it, put it back in and called
it, wait for it ... a physical Escape Key.

------
bogomipz
I'm curious why this memory controller that supports 64 Gigs would not have
made it into the recent refresh of the 15" MBP. Is this related to the new
thermal design they mentioned maybe?

------
bogomipz
I'm curious why the memory controller in that supports 64 Gigs would not have
made it into the recent refresh of 15" MBP. Is this related to the new thermal
design they mentioned maybe?

------
DeusExMachina
> The 16-inch MacBook Pro features a new Magic Keyboard with a refined scissor
> mechanism

Probably one of the most important features, even if mentioned in passing,
given the problems of the butterfly mechanism.

------
nakodari
Is the form factor the same as 15" Macbook Pro or is this bigger? Did Apple
simply reduce bezels on the sides of the screen to fit 16" display instead of
the standard 15"?

------
gardnr
The photos in the article do show the physical escape key but do not show the
sides of the laptop where the ports would be. I hope that it has a MagSafe
charge adapter and an HDMI port.

~~~
jmull
I'm guessing you're trolling, but just in case not, or for anyone else who
doesn't want to look at Apple's web page:

It's four USB-C/thunderbolt ports, two on each side, and a head-phone jack.

BTW, magsafe is an optimization from a bygone era when you had to keep your
laptop plugged in while using it. You can now (generally) leave your laptop
unplugged as you use it and stow it somewhere out-of-the way to charge when
you aren't. Like your phone or tablet. Magsafe is nice, but probably not worth
it now that you don't need to routinely charge your laptop in a vulnerable
position. And, of course, USB-C is very easy to plug in.

~~~
orky56
It would be ideal if Apple could figure out a way to make a magnetic USB-C
port. At the end of the day, the USB-C cable brings much convenience but it is
loose and constantly comes out, just slightly to lose the charge.

------
blt
I guess the return of HDMI and MagSafe was too much to hope for :(

------
hambos22
I was thinking to buy that line of MB, but since September I fully switched to
Linux after being OSX user for the last 14 years. I ditched my mbp for a Dell
XPS 7390 (latest model, 16GB RAM, i7 10th). Me and my girl couldn't be
happier.

Me, because I ditched that monopolistic machine, which you can't fully enjoy
if you are not in Apple's ecosystem. The only Apple machine I have is macbook.
Even my desktop was a hackintosh. As a developer Linux gave me extreme
freedom. The only thing I miss, is the touchpad but I learned to live without
it.

My girl because I gave her my Macbook Pro 2015 and moved away from windows,
win-win situation, the machine will just "work"

------
benologist
As the keyboard replacement program starts ending next year for the earliest
lemons it will be interesting to see if Apple voluntarily recalls and replaces
anything with these.

------
thierryzoller
"the worlds best pro notebook" ? According to whom ?

~~~
simonklitj
Probably Apple.

------
gradstudent
About bloody time, Apple.

Too bad I bought a ThinkPad back in June after THREE YEARS of ESC'less
computing. This after almost two decades of not even looking at non-Mac
machines.

------
burtonator
Would it KILL them to build a regular keyboard with function keys? It's a $100
part...

I can't be the only software engineer who refuses to buy it on this one major
issue.

------
themantra514
Hello, 2019!

Real talk, if I could easily do my own repairs, and HW replacements on it, I
would get it.

Typed on the flawless keyboard of my insanely awesome, truly immersive, MBP
17" Mid 2010.

------
GordonS
Something I found hilarious:

I just clicked through to the purchasing page, and at the top there is this:

"Get a refund of up to $2530 when you trade in an eligible computer, or
recycle it for free.*"

If you click it, it asks you to choose if your trade in was made by Apple, or
"Other" \- if you select "Other", it says:

"Based on what you’ve told us, your computer is ready to recycle"

Beneath, not so hilariously, there was:

"It’s a big win for the planet. Recycling your device helps replenish
resources and drive innovation."

Come on, this is marketing spin at it's worst, and not the kind of thing I'd
expect a "hipster" company like Apple to say!

------
theklr
Why does everyone seem grateful that they kept the headphone jack? Where did
Apple give the impression that they would remove it from a more stationary
device?

~~~
jeffshek
Apple sent a survey asking once how macbook owners would feel if they removed
it.

They believe the answer is going to be Bluetooth.

~~~
frisco
Music production is usually Mac at this point, and that requires wired
headphones/speakers. Not sure it’s big enough of a market that Apple wouldn’t
drop it anyway, but Bluetooth latencies are too high to be a substitute there.

~~~
TillE
Anyone doing pro music work will have a USB interface anyway.

But, like, people listen to music and watch videos on their laptops, and it
would be absurd to force them to use bluetooth headphones for no good reason.

------
ryanmccullagh
I checked my trade in value for my 2018 MBP. $1130. Come to think of it, my 15
inch is actually pretty big, so I'll wait to get the next generation.

------
293984j29384
My first laptop was an Apple PowerBook 140 and I've owned a succession of Mac
laptops since then (Wallstreet, G4 Aluminum, 2012 & 2017 Macbook Pro) and yet
I'm typing this on a Surface Pro because I had such a poor experience with the
2017 Macbook Pro that I'll probably never go back. That keyboard was such junk
that I literally feel like Apple robbed me. I really regret not returning the
computer within the two week window for a full refund. I realize this rant
isn't very productive but I still hope the ghost of Steve Jobs reads it.

------
spoown
Wouah , what a nice price! How do thzy people buying at such jigh price tage?
Always amazed... even if the software and hardware are really great!

------
cfitz
"Bigger, better, and more broken than ever before."

(Disclosure: My 2017 MBP has been repaired 8x and replaced 1x. My iPhone
repaired 1x and replaced 1x.)

------
msvan
So Apple made a decent MacBook Pro again. Good. But they still haven't made
things right for the lemon they sold me. My keyboard is still not working,
even after I handed it in for repair twice. Now I'm expected to shell out a
few more grand just to have a working f key, and Apple is not even willing to
acknowledge that they for years sold faulty products to gullible idiots like
me.

Would it really hurt their octibajillion dollar valuation too much to just
make things right for the customers who got shafted by their broken keyboard
design?

------
purple_ducks
I find it bizarre that Apple hasn't cottoned on to the market for 14" laptops
yet.

Easily the best tradeoff for me between screensize and carry-ability.

------
mikorym
I think the next logical step for Apple is to use textual analysis on this HN
thread to optimise for what the following change should be...

------
easytiger
Do advertising exaggerations belong in a post title?

------
abledon
Can't wait for the 2021 MBP where the keys are even higher in action akin to
the 2011 MBPs, and the full Function Key row is restored.

------
EugeneOZ
$2800 in USA and $3600 (€3200) in Europe. "Inspiring" difference... Maybe it
will be less expensive to order from the USA...

~~~
tobyhinloopen
US prices don’t include tax, EU prices do. Compare the ex vat price to the US
price.

~~~
EugeneOZ
Then price is almost same ($2870). Thank you, didn't know that about the US
price. Now I feel stupid. Meh.

~~~
rimliu
Also, there are import taxes for stuff not from EU.

------
moron4hire
Wish they wouldn't call the display "immersive", especially with the knowledge
that they're working on AR glasses.

------
xylophoner
Still with the annoying and disruptive touch bar.

------
chx
> 96W USB‑C Power Adapter

That's a big deal for everyone. I do not know why it's not 100W but I will
take what I can get. You see, Apple landing on 87W for their USB C adapter led
to a lot of third party chargers also being 87W (or if multiple ports then one
maxing out there) which is very frustrating to those who need more oomph.
There's something to be said about education in the US when you need to
explain to people a higher wattage charger doesn't damage their equipment...

------
royalghost
I paid $4k for a 2017 Macbook Pro and if I want to trade-in this device to get
a new one, I am getting only $1k. This is bullshit.

------
fakename
What's the best option for getting rid of a 2016-18 mbp? Do you think they'll
do direct swaps when our keyboards fail?

------
nvr219
Awesome, can I get this but 12" and without the touchbar? In fact can I just
get a 12" powerbook with new guts?

------
mensetmanusman
Configured with 8 TB? That is more than they allow you to purchase with
iCloud... wonder how that will break things

------
Slippery_John
Man I really want to upgrade for that keyboard, but they don't have the early
2019 models on their trade in :(

------
cltsang
A bit disappointed it still sports an LCD screen, although expected.

I guess LED screen is left for the next iteration of innovation.

~~~
AtlasLion
Is it innovation if others already have it?

------
docmars
Fin-all-y, Apple. Took you 4 years to release a notebook with a sensible
keyboard.

Sass aside, thank you. I'm very pleased!

------
deaps
Do I see an actual, physical escape key? That's probably my only gripe with my
2019 macbook pro 13"

------
greggman2
for whatever reason wishing for anything different always gets downvotes for
Apple.

I like the changes. I wish they would target weight next. 2kg is nearly twice
as heavy as the same size LG Gram and 33% heavier than then 17" LG Geam.

No, I don't want an LG Gram but I would love a lighter 16" MacBook Pro.

------
imagetic
But can you buy it WITHOUT a touch bar?

------
WA
Wow, there's only one kind of sleeve: Made of leather (non-vegan) and quite
expensive. Bummer!

------
StreamBright
Now we need the the 13" version as well and we are back in 2015 (with slight
improvements).

------
eloff
Now if they would just support the new 7nm AMD mobile processors, I'd buy one
of these without question. But I have a feeling that next spring I'll have to
choose between this Mac and lower compute performance or a half price Linux
model from some Asian company with ~50% more oomph. Tough call. If you're a
developer, which would you pick?

------
RenRav
What the heck is that thing above the number keys? It looks like a strip of a
touchscreen.

~~~
dafman
It is, that’s the Touch Bar that has replaced the function keys on MacBook
Pros. Not a fan at all as I use the fn keys a lot on a MacBook but I can’t see
them getting rid of it for a while

------
Clubber
I ordered one. It will be replacing my 2017 with a swollen battery and messed
up keyboard. I'm worried I'm throwing good money after bad, but hopefully the
MacBook Pro is back on it's game.

I'll be taking the 2017 to the Apple store and get them to fix it up under
their keyboard (and hopefully battery) replacement program.

------
dblooman
My only hope now is that my current MBP fails and i can get a new one under
apple care.

------
ChrisKor
Let's hope this gets other manufacturers to also release some 16" laptops.

------
z3t4
How can one use a laptop for several hours every day without developing neck
pain!?

------
bsaul
I wonder how many developers purchase MBP that don't require to build iOS apps
or install xcode.

I realize i don't even look at other laptop makers just because i need to
build iOS apps (which in theory shouldn't have any kind of relation) That's
probably the textbook definition of monopolistic abuse.

~~~
jdgiese
Out of myself and my nine coworkers (all developers) I believe that 6 of the
10 use MPBs. We don’t build iOS apps or use Xcode. I should also note that we
have a BYOD policy so.

------
noncoml
> The new Magic Keyboard also features a physical Escape key

Thank god for the return to sanity

------
dcchambers
Nice. Hope these changes make it down to the 13" (or new 14") model.

------
mozey
Is it just me, or does the touch bar remind anyone else of the MS Word Ribbon?

------
briantmaurer
"The escape key is back, which is great." 2 minutes into the video.

------
nyxtom
Apple: `git revert keyboard`

~~~
tandr
more like "git cherry-pick esc"

------
iceporter
I don't get it why they remove the full size left and right arrow key?

------
fourseventy
Around the world thousands of vim users rejoice over the physical esc key.

------
hosh
It's about time. Looks like they incorporated a lot of feedback.

------
sub7
Anyone know why they didn't use the latest 10th gen processors?

------
honest_tovarich
Just bought the 15" 10 days ago... Hating myself already... :(

~~~
jborichevskiy
I believe Apple lets you return for up to 14 days last time I checked. I
assume you’d just have to wait a while for actual availability.

~~~
honest_tovarich
will do that , thanks!

------
propter_hoc
I am still pretty astonished at the strict lack of the ports you would expect
on a typical pro laptop: Ethernet, HDMI and at least one USB-A in particular.
As someone who occasionally forgets to bring dongles with me, it's a bit of a
shame.

------
social_quotient
Why do they get away with saying the world’s best pro notebook“ when I don’t
see anything materially better than the dell precision 55xx and 75xx line?

More pixels in the 15.6 Xeon chip 5ghz 128GB ECC memory

I guess I’m wondering what metric singles this one out as being best?

~~~
aembleton
> I guess I’m wondering what metric singles this one out as being best?

Apple have probably decided that it is the best because it has the best
hardware that is running OSX. I think they consider any other OS inferior, no
matter what hardware it is running on.

------
1024core
> The new Magic Keyboard also features a physical Escape key

Hallelujah!!

------
aecorredor
I’m kind of amazed that people want a better laptop speaker. I feel that’s
like the one thing that could be just decent and nobody would complain.
Everybody I see either uses headphones or a bluetooth speaker.

------
vkaku
Looks like an upgrade, for sure. I'd look at it if they did a few more things:

1) Ryzen Options; Icelake Options 2) Regular USB 3 Ports and 3.5mm Jack 3)
Make the Touchbar Optional. 4) Do not solder stuff to the Board.

------
voldacar
Ah yes, nothing says satisfying like 1mm of key travel

------
sigzero
Can't wait for a review of how the thermals work.

------
shadykiller
Well at least it's not 3000USD as was rumored :)

------
sidcool
This is quite amazing...Wish I could afford it.

------
godson_drafty
Friendly reminder:

it's == (it is | it has)

It's my responsibility to correct grammar. it's been tough for the Lions this
year.

its == (the thing belonging to it) You should always judge a book by its
cover.

------
mrankin
I’m so happy about all the keyboard changes.

------
m00dy
Anyone has price prediction for this beast ?

~~~
8draco8
It's starting at the same price as the previous one, $2399

~~~
bluedino
I was surprised, and pleased to see this. 512GB as the base SSD as well.

I'd like to see some video card benchmarks.

------
013a
Prediction: These comments will be obscenely hostile toward the new device,
yet the new device will rank among Apple's best selling computers to-date.

------
NoblePublius
I would pay $1000 extra for no Touch Bar.

------
mister_hn
It makes me always hard laugh when they do claims like "The world's best pro
notebook", "the most performant notebook", etc.

~~~
journalctl
The hyperbole really isn’t cute anymore after all of the fuckups. Like, some
humility this time would be great. “We listened. We made some mistakes, but we
want to fix them.” Don’t come out guns blazing like “this is the BEST laptop
EVAR!” You don’t get to claim the world’s best anything when some people have
been waiting the length of an entire presidential administration just to buy a
usable laptop from you.

------
rcardo11
Still buying refurbrished 2015 model.

------
iddan
I've waited for this for so long

------
jbverschoor
When does a 14" mbp come out?

------
drno_
Imagine being excited for this...

------
fxleach
I got to the 3rd "the world’s best pro notebook" before I even finished the
first sentence and gave up.

------
suyash
No NVIDIA GPU means No CUDA :(

------
i4t
People pay a lot of money for what is in reality an abridged notebook.

"Look, we give you your Esc and arrow keys back"

it's a scam.

------
faramarz
a couple of months ago I bought a fully decked out 15" for $6k CAD; for the
same amount, I can now get a 16", and double the storage and slightly better
graphics.

What the hell! I'm going to try getting a replacement from Apple. The 15"
upgrade that I got was just announced too when I got it.

------
jordache
good thing that john ivey has left apple.. this is a good direction change.

------
modzu
dongles. pros want dongles!

------
baybal2
Look at the battery, 100Wh!

------
psim1
Why does every Apple promo read like a Trump speech or propaganda out of North
Korea? "Most superlatives ever!" Am I being facetious? This kind of excessive
language - every single time - is actually a big turnoff to trusting Apple's
product announcements. With such excessive adjectives, I can't take it
seriously.

~~~
mikestew
_With such excessive adjectives, I can 't take it seriously._

Oh, but you trust every word of the press releases issued by other companies?
C'mon, it's a press release, not a canonical religious document.

------
jbverschoor
Still waiting for the 14”

------
HugoDaniel
Still using Intel though.

------
dasKrokodil
The best escape key ever!

------
mcculley
Still no LTE modem?

~~~
8draco8
I feel like LTE modems in laptops are pointless since virtually every
smartphone is capable of creating private hotspot to share LTE connection.

~~~
chungus_khan
They pretty much only exist in business laptops because in that context it can
be useful to issue someone a field laptop with a SIM in it, and it doesn't
really mean much for cost on a large corporate data plan.

~~~
mcculley
Yes, "business" and "Pro" users would benefit more than most others.

~~~
8draco8
"Pro" in Apple backyard means nothing

------
legohead
Why does it still have an aux port? I thought Apple had courage.

~~~
JshWright
It doesn't cost anything in this form factor, and laptop users are more likely
to use corded headphones, rather than earbuds.

------
raskalnikov81
Sorry, that keyboard has screwed me too many times.

------
mratsim
OpenCL? Cuda?

Please tell me how I do proper GPU compute on a Mac.

------
EricE
About time!

------
loriverkutya
Still no MagSafe charger. Instant skip.

------
GiorgioG
Where are my damn F-Keys?

------
vesinisa
Could @mods please editorialize the title. "The world's best pro notebook" is
marketing speech and not a fact.

~~~
Wheaties466
TIL there are mods here.

~~~
rootusrootus
AFAIK, basically there are two: dang and sctb. That may have changed, but this
topic is not routinely discussed and I have not heard otherwise. Cultivating
HN seems to be their full time job.

------
ActorNightly
I urge everyone to remember Apples actions regarding HK protests,specifically
how they are able to remove an app from the store, without any easy way to
side load it on devices.

Also keep in mind that warranty and repairs on Mac products are a complete
ripoff.

------
nkkollaw
Is there any way to know if this will support a 5K monitor at dot-by-dot
resolution..?

------
alt_f4
I think this is the first Apple laptop in 4-5 years that I feel like I can
buy.

------
ossworkerrights
Too little, too late. If it weren't for the OS, which they are also
butchering, I would've moved away from Apple sooner.

------
2OEH8eoCRo0
This marketing wank actually makes my blood pressure rise.

------
iagovar
Will the fan make something this time or will it be a placebo again?

------
geophile
Still has the touchbar.

“Hey Siri, wake me up next year.”

------
romanovcode
$2,399 For escape key - Not bad. Maybe next year we'll get full keyboard for
$3,399!

~~~
8draco8
To be fair it's a bit more than just ESC key.

------
objektif
I can't see myself spending this much for a laptop but I guess there is a
market for it.

------
juskrey
Why wouldn't we say firm no, until the classic keys are fully back.

------
braum
right... a "Pro" computer with only USB-C ports, no HDMI out, no SD card
reader, soldered memory.... dongle dongle dongle. no thanks. (before i'm
accused of being a troll. I have a MBP with all those things circa 2005 or so,
it's old and slow AF now. But still works for what I use it for and I have
quite a few PC laptops as well.

------
jron
Apple must have sunk some serious cash into the touch bar. I can't believe it
is still a thing.

~~~
wolph
They're just notoriously bad at admitting being wrong. Just look at how many
keyboard iterations it took to get back to the old working keyboards.

For me personally think this could work, not having an esc button was a deal
breaker for me but this might just convince me to finally upgrade my old mbp
retina

------
tracer4201
Please give the same keyboard at the less than $1500 price point on the
regular MacBook models. Also, give us ports and please stop with the thinner
== better. This is a great step but I’m not spending $2600 on a new machine.

~~~
pwthornton
A good guess would be that all laptops will get this new keyboard over the
next year. There is no benefit to Apple shipping a keyboard that is in a
repair program day one (which all of the butterflies are). This new keyboard
is not part of the repair program because apparently Apple thinks it will be
reliable.

------
aerotwelve
I'm thrilled that they've rolled back some of the worst post-2015 MBP changes.
I'm a vim user, so I was never going to switch to something without a physical
escape key. The key travel on the new machines were terrible; it's like typing
on a piece of glass. Most importantly -- regardless of whether or not I have
an external keyboard plugged in (sometimes I do, right now I don't) -- an
internal keyboard needs to be reliable! I'm really glad Apple has seen the
light and returned to the reliable scissor switched keys that I'm currently
typing on.

My Late 2013 MBP has been serving me well for the last 5 or so years, but I've
been wanting to upgrade it ever since 2016 (the battery life is quite poor &
the GPU is showing its age). I refused once I saw the changes in the 2016 MBP,
and was glad I never bought in after seeing more and more complaints about the
machines roll in every subsequent year. I spent the next two years hoping for
a redesign & started to give up. As much as I didn't want to, I've been
spending the past few months looking at ThinkPads and Dells and mapping out my
transition from OS X to Linux.

As much as I love OS X (and I do -- I've been dreading having to leave it), I
just could not spend $2000+ dollars on a computer that I was going to have to
fight with to make it work like my old one. This is going to be a daily
driver, not a novelty or a toy. Yes, I could've remapped my escape key to caps
lock. Yes, I could've bought a bigger laptop bag that could fit a small
external keyboard. Yes, I could have learned to live with the new key travel.
This is all beside the point if you ask me: I shouldn't have to do that.

Frankly, I'd be okay if Apple kept the old model around, as some people
(including many commenters above me) have grown to prefer the butterfly
keyboard. Maybe some people prefer the extra touch bar space? (I don't see why
it has to be one or the other; I remember how many MBP variations/SKUs Apple
carried when I started buying MBPs back in 2010.)

Just give me the option to opt out of these things -- even _most_ of these
things -- and I'll keep writing you checks. I'm looking forward to doing this
in a couple months assuming the reviews on this machine are good.

~~~
cactus2093
As a fellow vim user, I highly recommend mapping caps lock to escape anyway.
It's a huge game changer whether you have a physical escape key or not.

------
ai_ja_nai
For less money something more open and more powerful?
[https://system76.com/laptops/galago](https://system76.com/laptops/galago)

Here is a nickel kid: buy yourself a real computer -Dilbert

~~~
8draco8
Can I use on it my company provided Adobe suit to create images, sprites and
mockups and then use them to create iOS apps?

~~~
thebigspacefuck
Sure, just install OSX-KVM and run macOS as a VM

~~~
8draco8
And it's all perfectly legal and as user friendly as picking up brand, spanky
new MBP from Apple Store?

~~~
diffeomorphism
Well, you also get $1550 in cash when buying the base model. I am sure that
this is more than enough to pay someone to make it just as user friendly.

------
burntwater
I don't believe this press release indicates which ports the laptop has. I
assumed that meant it had a crappy selection, and further googling proves
correct - 4 Thunderbolts and a headphone jack.

In my eyes, that makes it a non-starter for an alleged "Pro" laptop. For the
professional work I do, an SD card reader (for photos and video),
HDMI/DisplayPort (for presentations, either in the boardroom or better viewing
of photos and videos), USB A (because thumb drives), and for my specific work,
an ethernet jack, are all required to do my job. Also magsafe power is a
lifesaver.

I'll be holding onto my 2014 15" until it's cold and dead. And if Apple still
doesn't have a suitable replacement, Lenovo likely will still have great pro
laptops.

------
Wowfunhappy
It feels as though Apple looked at the two biggest complaints, and gave the
smallest concessions they possibly could.

• The keyboard uses scissor switches (and thus hopefully won't completely
die), but still only has 1mm of key travel.

• They added back an escape key to the top row, but the touch bar is still
there—and there's still no function keys as a result.

The keyboard, okay, _maybe_ Apple really needs those thinness metrics for
marketing purposes—but would it really have killed them to up the travel to
2mm? And, why the heck are they so dug in on the touchbar? While I admittedly
only have anecdotal evidence, I think it's relatively clear at this point that
neither users nor developers have taken to it in any significant way. Just
kill it already. It's been three years—if people haven't discovered how
amazing it is by now, they aren't going to have a sudden awakening.

~~~
have_faith
> maybe Apple really needs those thinness metrics for marketing purposes

Surely the thinness of the keyboards hasn't been relevant in marketing in a
while? what kind of consumer does this excite? Surprised Apple are still
shouting about it.

~~~
Wowfunhappy
I don't know! I would think so, but then why do they keep doing it?

I legitimately don't understand why you wouldn't add just a tiny bit more key
travel. Typing is one of the primary functions of a laptop.

