
I Paid a Bribe - albertsun
http://www.ipaidabribe.com/
======
leelin
Darn, this seems like a site meant to uncover and curb corruption.

I was hoping it was a site where everyday folks share their stories about when
it helps to give a nice tip or innocently grease a few palms.

Well known cases would be the "$20 trick" you give to the hotel clerk to get a
free room upgrade. Once during an airport emergency, I gave two $10 bills to
the bellhop to cut the long line at my hotel taxi stand (the bellhop keeps one
$10 bill and gives the other to the taxi stand valet guy, who waved us into
the next cab).

I remember seeing on Friends that you can shorten your restaurant wait times
by giving money to the hostess, and the book Doormen claims you can get lots
of perks by over-tipping your doormen. What I need is a menu of all such extra
services that can be achieved and the average cost / success rate, so I
minimize the chances of looking like an idiot.

~~~
guelo
Sorry, instead of it being a site where your wealthy greedy self could gain a
meaningless personal advantage over others it is a site that is trying to make
the world a better place for everybody. I know it is useless for "everyday
folks" from your class, we'll try harder next time.

~~~
burgerbrain
Tipping low-wage customer service workers for unadvertised services and
favours is now some sort of evil "class" issue that indicates greed and
corruption?

Do you get mad when other diners at your favourite restaurant tip better than
you and get friendlier service for their trouble?

Give me a break.

~~~
thebooktocome
I have to agree with guelo. The services you describe are unadvertised for a
reason. You're effectively asking someone from a lower class to possibly break
the law (by getting paid under the table, and presumably not reporting the
additional income) and possibly get into trouble with their employer because
they want your extra money. If that's not a class issue, what is?

~~~
khafra
Every scenario he described involves people who already make money from tips.
If they underreport their tips, that's their own issue. I've read experimental
reports from people attempting to bypass social conventions by means of $20
bills, and it only works when the bribee's job and legal status are not on the
line.

I'm guessing that bypassing social conventions is where most of the outrage
comes from. Queueing etiquette is something sacred; defectors face strong
social punishment. Seems wrong to have someone taking something that's yours--
your place in line--simply by having more money.

But queueing is just a non-monetary rationing system for a slightly scarce
resource that most people don't care enough to pay for. It'd be fairer if
everyone waiting participated in an auction for places in line, and the
proceeds were distributed evenly, but unless you care enough to set that
system up I think the moral outrage against people who buy the front position
directly from the coordinator(s) of the queue is misplaced.

~~~
SimonPStevens
To cite one example, the Alton Towers theme park in the UK has a ticketing
system that allows you to pay more for "fast track" tickets.

Fast track tickets allow you to join a separate queue. The number of fast
track tickets available are limited so the queues remain very short, and
actual boarding of each ride is controlled so it is never dominated by fast
track ticket holders.

The fast track ticket prices vary depending on which rides they are usable on,
and how many times you can re-use them.

The system seems to work very well. Those who assign a high value to getting
on every ride can opt to pay the extra for a more intense day. Those who are
happy with the slow pace of a day out with some queueing can still afford the
regular priced tickets.

There doesn't seem to be any moral or social stigma attached to those using
the fast track system, but I think part of the reason is that it is perceived
as fair, and everyone has the option to participate if they choose.

~~~
gnosis
_"it is perceived as fair, and everyone has the option to participate if they
choose."_

But why doesn't everyone choose to do so? After all, it would mean a shorter
wait, and who wouldn't want that?

Could it be that not everyone can afford to use the system? Is this really
fair? And how do you know that it's "perceived as fair"? By whom? How many
people who are waiting in the slow line have you surveyed?

~~~
SimonPStevens
_"But why doesn't everyone choose to do so? After all, it would mean a shorter
wait, and who wouldn't want that?"_

I see it as a trade off.

Lets say you are in a queue that is 2 hours long. You are offered the
opportunity to half your queue time for £5, and you can pay multiple times to
repeatedly half your queuing time as many times as you want. How many times
will you pay the £5 for an ever decreasing return?

There is a trade off here between queueing time and cost. Regardless of your
available wealth you won't repeat the payment indefinitely. Internally you
assign a value to your lost time, and you trade that against the value of the
payment you are willing to make.

The balancing point of the trade off depends on your personal circumstances,
availability of monetary wealth and your desired goals.

The fast track system builds the same trade off. The more you are willing to
pay the more reduction in wait times you can get, but the higher up the scale
you go, the smaller the gain becomes, and there are a range of available
ticket types that target different goals (Multiple use, certain rides only,
single use, booked time slots, etc). Each user can trade off money against
queue time to maximise their goals.

It's fair because all of the available options are clearly documented and made
available to everyone indiscriminately. The choice is yours to trade money for
time.

It's also fair because those who don't assign high value to the trade off are
protected in some way. Fast track tickets are limited in quantity, so most
people have to queue, there is not a situation where 10% get stuck waiting
exponentially longer. 90% have the same queue, and only the 10% who assign the
highest value to the trade off can receive the benefits.

Just because some people can't afford something doesn't make it unfair. I
can't afford a Ferrari, but that isn't unfair.

 _"By whom?"_

By me. ;-)

Seriously though, while I have witnessed people cutting into lines unfairly
and arguments starting in many other situations I have never seen a
confrontation due to the fast track ticket system.

(Perhaps this is because it is sanctioned by the organisation so maybe people
just grumble silently in this case, who knows)

------
rosser
I still really like the idea of the zero-Rupee notes circulating in India,
created specifically to present to government officials asking for bribes.
Apparently, in many cases the official is so shamed on being handed the nil
bill that the bribe is effectively paid.

<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1353796>

~~~
statictype
Are they really shamed? I would like to believe this is true but I have
trouble coming to terms with the idea that people taking bribes have any shame
at all.

Unrelated, The 5th Pillar (the organization that came up with the zero-rupee
note) seems to have an office building very close to mine. I've seen the bill
pasted on the back of cars and can see their wifi network from where I am.

~~~
larrik
It's easy to think that everyone accepting (or even demanding) bribes just
decided one day that they wanted to be evil. In reality, they may very well
have been pressured into it by their environment, or from fears that their
peers will rat them out if they aren't participating.

I'm not saying they'd be right or should be pitied, but it'd certainly be
possible for them to be shamed.

~~~
spraveen80
It is a systemic problem. Let me give an example where reasonable number of
people will laugh at you if you don't bribe your way out of a harmless
situation.

Road infrastructure is sorely lacking in India which results in crowded
streets. A huge percentage of drivers violate traffic laws everyday to gain
even the slightest advantage over fellow roadsters. If the person gets pulled
over, what is the best thing to do in that situation: go to the nearby police
station, wait for a few hours, pay the fine legally or bribe the cop and get
on with your travel? Which would you choose? In this case the person who
violated traffic is almost begging for the traffic cop to take a bribe so that
he can be on his way.

Same situation permeates every public office. Do not underestimate the problem
caused by people who are willing to pay a bribe to get preferential service.
As long as such people exist, people who accept bribes cannot be shamed into
not accepting it.

~~~
IPaidABribe
Well said. Corruption in India is indeed a systemic problem. While there is no
denying that the system of governance is corrupt, it is also true that
citizens are ready to bribe as long as their work gets done.

It is in this context that IPAB believes in a systemic approach to tackling
corruption. We do not target individuals as they are dispensable and
replaceable. It is the system and processes which need to be changed.
Alongside focusing on procedural change in the government we also focus on
greater knowledge and understanding on the part of the citizen. We work on the
belief that citizens who are well-informed of their rights wrt govt services
are less likely to indulge in paying a bribe.

To this end, on our site we provide Citizen Charters which are documents of
service timelines published by the government. Armed with this document,
citizens are better enabled to stand up against corruption. On the govt-facing
end of our campaign, we have come out with Janamahiti report for the Transport
Department of Bangalore which analyses bribe reports received on our site,
pinpoints the most corrupt processes and puts forward suggestions to tackle
corruption rampant in this department. We are also briefing the Transport
department this week on the Janamahiti and the recommendations it provides.

------
ajays
This is an interesting idea, but it needs some cachet to catch on. Don't get
me wrong: India _needs_ this site, and needs it badly. Corruption and graft
have become so bad that everyone from the top-most office down to the lowest
level refuses to even lift a finger without getting his palm greased. Things
have become so bad that officials are willing to cause a loss of billions of
dollars to the taxpayer just to make some money (ref. the "2G scam").

What India needs is a WikiLeaks. And a "wikileaks" for corruption, where you
can list the name, position, etc. of the officials who are corrupt. It would
be a pretty long list, I can imagine.

~~~
der_ketzer
I live in Mexiko. The corruption here is enourmous, from top to bottom.
Wikileaks has showed this corruption.

The problem IMHO with corruption is that nobody can/want to do something about
it. It doesn't matter (at least here) if you collect all the proofs necessary,
because the people that can do something about it are corrupt as well.

And I don't think it's that easy to denounce bribes and send to jail the
guilty ones.

There was a case against ABB
(<http://www.sec.gov/news/press/2010/2010-175.htm>), ABB was charged of paying
bribes to Mexican government. There are two ways to make bussiness here, pay a
bribe or to leave. ¿Who is more guilty, who pays the bribe (and get no income
at all) or the one who receives it? I don't think companies have any moral. So
the option is to follow a corruption scheme.

And I'm not saying I agree with that or that I'm happy with it. I'm only
saying that it doesn't serve a purpose to denounce bribes, if there's no one
to punish them.

~~~
keerthi
I believe if there is a public uprising against the government and the
authorities, they will be forced to answer these issues. Wikileaks faclites
this by publishing the documents through all types of medium which cannot be
censored by the government. As a citizen you can also contribute by spreading
it more and more.. My best bet would be to spread it in schools and colleges
as they seem to be fearless lot. An uprising is what we need.

~~~
radu_floricica
I'm Romanian. We're not as bad as Mexic, in the sense we don't have drug lords
and piles of bodies, but we definitely don't lose in corruption.

I've spent not a little time thinking about what can be done. I know the
problem (pretty much everybody knows the problem) - politicians suck. They're
either corrupt and incompetent, or just corrupt. Problem is, we really really
don't have any alternatives. There is absolutely no party, not even a small
youth one that's not the same. We can barely trust non-political watchdog
organizations - hell, after the last elections we don't really trust them
either.

The media is... ok. Private for the most part, and so heavily politicized
(yes, it makes sense here), but they don't pull punches when it comes to
criticizing the government. They're pretty open with both obvious mistakes and
obvious cases of corruption - but the problem is, nothing ever comes out of
it.

In a working democracy this would be a case for the justice system. Well, we
have two problems. First, the whole system is also corrupt as hell. Second,
it's also (probably on purpose) extremely inefficient. All the reforms in the
past years, including a ridiculously publicized new constitution a few years
back only made things worse.

So yes, I know what we need. We need:

    
    
       * to respect the now largely ignored law saying that public institutions, education and health are non-politic;
       * justice system reform
       * new and fresh options for the next elections
       * untainted public organizations
    

It's no mystery, really. The only problem is... how do we do it? It it my
personal conviction that solving this chicken and egg problem is the next
greatest challenge. A generic solution would be extremely useful for most
developing countries, i.e. half the world right now.

~~~
thisisananth
In India for example, I think everyone pays a bribe to get a passport. If we
don't, then passport will be stuck somewhere for months and months without
coming out. Even for knowing why it is not getting processed, you have to pay
bribe. So finally, everyone has stopped questioning and started giving money
to agents to get the things done.

The problem is no one is responsible if the citizen is not getting the
promised services. We cannot see the status about why it is pending online, we
don't know whom to contact online, no helpdesks. You just have to go to the
office and wait and wait for turn only to be turned away without even getting
a chance to speak.

If one person is made responsible for citizen satisfaction for services and he
is like the manager in the office whose compensation is dependent on the
rating the citizen gives for the services, then I think this will change.

How to make government officials answerable to the people? This is difficult,
because a government is voted for a period of 5 yrs into power and they have 5
yrs to loot without doing anything and then bribe their way into power again.
If this vicious cycle can be broken by clear communication about the
government performance, so clear that people can't ignore, then they may vote
for another government which is not much better than this. But by consistently
projecting these metrics about corruption and government performance, we might
give a chance for some party to fight on the plank of eliminating corruption.

Long answer.. hopefully there is some juice in it.

~~~
radu_floricica
Entering the European Union did some good for us. A lot of public services
have to adhere to European standards, and it works. For example there is a set
period in which you must get your passport/identity card/driver's licence and
they respect it.

The corruption mostly moved higher. I had a coffee with a friend who works in
a public institution a couple of weeks ago, and we talked about EU funds
absorption. I'm a software guy, and I'd _love_ to do projects for his
institution (or any other). There's a huge need for software projects at every
level - national and local. And there are lots of money available for this,
provided by the EU. So why am I not working with the government (nor is
anybody I know)?

Because things go like this. Say my friend wants to put something online in
his institution. He has to get about 3 signatures, the last of which is pretty
high in the ministry. And the guy in the ministry will invariably think
something like: "if it's am idea worth doing, then we'll file it for when we
can do it on a bigger scale with our boys".

So yeah. Like I said, main problems are 1. politicians up high and 2. the fact
that institutions are now completely political, to the level where I can bet
there's a doorman somewhere who's been hired just because his brother in law
is in the right party.

------
chrisbroadfoot
Took me far too long to find the "view stories" link:

<http://www.ipaidabribe.com/sforms/view_reports_paid>

It'd be great to have these on a map. I want to see _where_ bribes are most
common(ly reported)

Though, I suppose this site is so focused on Bangalore, it may not be much
use.

~~~
IPaidABribe
Your feedback on navigation is appreciated. We will definitely include it in
our next website redesign.

Not sure what you mean by map but there is a section called Corruption Commons
which does give a map wrt bribes:
<http://ipaidabribe.com/sforms/corruption_commons> We also have a graphical
representation of bribes called Bribe Patterns on the homepage. Do take a look
and feel free to get back to us with feedback. It's much appreciated.

Though it is true that IPAB is based out of Bangalore, we are a pan-India
initiative. Our data being crowdsourced, it is just a matter of coincidence
that we receive a large portion of our reports from Bangalore. Having said
that our graphical Bribe Patterns will show you that Chennai, Mumbai, Pune,
Hyderabad and Delhi also figure prominently in our data.

------
jat850
Is there some sort of context missing to go along with this? It's an
interesting enough site, but I don't get it completely.

~~~
nbpoole
<http://www.ipaidabribe.com/node/77>

_IpaidABribe.com is Janaagraha’s unique initiative to tackle corruption by
harnessing the collective energy of citizens. You can report on the nature,
number, pattern, types, location, frequency and values of actual corrupt acts
on this website. Your reports will, perhaps for the first time, provide a
snapshot of bribes occurring across your city. We will use them to argue for
improving governance systems and procedures, tightening law enforcement and
regulation and thereby reduce the scope for corruption in obtaining services
from the government._

------
thisisananth
Though it is a good initiative, it is not effective yet. In the site the
stories are not associated with the name and also there are no proofs. So in a
way all the reports are toned down to just say that I had to pay a bribe but
not who is taking the bribe. If it has that detail, then that official will be
shamed and there is a possibility that corruption can be reduced faster.

But the site's aim is to gauge the amount of corruption and try for systemic
changes to eliminate it - I would take even that compared to nothing. So all
the best ipaidabribe

~~~
IPaidABribe
We have got a lot of similar feedback. However, after a great deal of thought
we have decided not to give names of people, for the following reasons:

(a) We are not a prosecuting agency on behalf of citizens. They can also
directly go to regulatory and vigilance authorities such as the Lokayukta and
Central Vigilance Commission. (b) It distracts us from the main task of
putting pressure on the government for systemic improvement (c) We do not want
to open the floodgates of claims and counterclaims. We want the website to
retain its focus on being a positive mover in the larger endeavour of
eliminating corruption. (d) Elimination of corruption is better achieved by
simplification of systems, transparency and other similar reforms. By
targeting corrupt people without tackling such changes, we cannot achieve
much.

------
known
Do not fight corruption in India unless you carry a licensed pistol.

~~~
ajays
... and the system is setup so that getting a licensed firearm is close to
impossible (and you have to pay a lot of bribes to get one).

------
known
Without caste/corruption India will disintegrate like USSR in no time.

------
jpr

        This was never the way I planned
        Not my intention
        I got so brave, pedal on the floor
        Lost my discretion
        It's not what, I'm used to
        Just wanna try this bimmer
        I'm curious how you
        Caught me speedin'
        
        I paid a bribe and I liked it
        The price of a new macbook
        I paid a bribe just to try it
        I hope my lawyer don't mind it
        It felt so wrong
        It felt so right
        Don't mean I'm in jail tonight
        I paid a bribe and I liked it
        I liked it
        
        No, I don't even know your rank
        It doesn't matter
        You're a corrupt cop
        Just human nature,
        It's not what,
        Good cops do
        Not how they should behave
        My head gets so confused
        Hard to obey
        
        Us yuppies we are so loaded
        Soft money, red bimmer, so predictable
        Hard to resist, so profitable
        Too good to deny it
        Ain't no big deal, it's innocent

------
Kilimanjaro
I'll say it a thousand times, corruption is the cancer of all societies and we
really need to find the cure as priority number one. Before going to mars,
before sea-steading, before feeding africa.

~~~
endtime
You might want to stop saying that, since it doesn't make any sense. There's
no more a global cure for corruption than there is a global cure for people
not being nice. Not everyone is going to behave how you want them to, and
there's no reasonable alternative.

~~~
Kilimanjaro
No I won't, it makes a lot of sense, and there is a simple cure not everybody
willing to accept: the law.

