
60W equivalent LED bulb uses 9.5W and costs $13 - coldpie
http://www.designingwithleds.com/cree-60w-led-replacement-bulb-review-and-tear-down/?ModPagespeed=noscript
======
ck2
We talked about this a month or two ago here.

The amazing part of this bulb is not it's watts or it's cost.

It's that a manufacturer finally put it's warranty where it's mouth is.

With a 10 year warranty I will actually buy it compared to the Phillips.

BTW I've yet to have a cheap chinese led 110v bulb last more than 3 years.

~~~
ars
We talked about it here: <https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5329732>

And the biggest problem with this bulb is the CRI of 80. That's much worse
than CFL's which are typically around 90.

~~~
justin66
Is that really the typical CFL number? I ask because I've got one of the new
Cree bulbs and I find the quality of light really a lot better than that of
the (admittedly cheap) CFLs I've bought at Costco.

So I guess I'm struggling with the significance of CRI.

~~~
ars
It depends on which CFL you buy of course. But 90 CRI CFLs are easy to find.

In general "warmer" CFLs have a better CRI.

You can trade off energy efficiency for CRI. This is true for LEDs as well. So
if you don't need great color then go for a lower CRI since you'll save energy
on the light output.

But because of that, when comparing energy efficiency of LEDs vs CFLs you MUST
use a comparable CRI, otherwise it's not a fair comparison.

But I'll save you time: There are no commercially available LEDs that beat
CFLs in energy efficiency for the equivalent CRI.

~~~
superdude
I've found the exact opposite. I've found that there are many more "cooler"
(~5600K color) CFLs with a high CRI than warmer (~2700K color) CFLs with a
high CRI. The cooler 5600K lights are daylight balanced and used a lot with
digital filmmaking and as indoor grow lights, whereas the warmer lights are
used in home light fixtures to approximate the color temps of incandescents.

------
nakedrobot2
This is excellent. However, please do not say "this is enough for me" after
you replace all your incandescent light bulbs with these. Household energy
consumption is a tiny, tiny drop in the bucket compared to industrical energy
consumption and shipping.

~~~
ams6110
I'm not quite sure what you're saying... that the LED bulbs have a much higher
energy and environmental "cost" in manufacturing, compared to a standard
incandescent? That's quite likely true and has to be considered in the big
picture (similar issues with electric vehicles, that their proponents like to
ignore).

For me the answer is simple: $13 is way too much to pay for a light bulb, I
don't care how efficient it is.

~~~
ssmoot
OTOH, my entire house is fluorescent and LED. My monthly electricity bill is
$65. For a house! I never have to replace burnt out bulbs. At $13 I'd guess
the LED is actually about at break-even over the life of the bulb vs
incandescent unless you're buying incandescent in the big packs of 30 bulbs
for $10.

The only gas in my house is my central heating, and my old water heater. I
plan to replace that with point-of-use electric tankless units. No more
waiting 2 minutes for hot water at the kitchen sink! With a $3,000 grid-
connected solar kit I'm pretty sure I can get to near $0/month on electricity,
even with the electric water heaters and the Nissan Leaf I just bought last
night. ;-)

It's the future brother. Stuff lasts longer, provides a better experience and
is cheaper. It's win/win/win. The environmental wins might not be all that
dramatic with the impact of production factored in, but if you're in it for
the long haul I figure you can still feel OK about it if you were up to
replace a bulb/water-heater/car/etc anyways when you make the switch.

PS: Have you seen the price on POU tankless water heaters? Once you have the
panel/breaker/wiring in place, they're dirt cheap compared to traditional
water heaters.

~~~
driverdan
Lighting is a small fraction of your overall electricity usage. HVAC alone
uses many times as much. While using efficient lighting is a good idea far too
many people get hung up on it when there are better places to conserve.

~~~
nitrogen
It depends on how many people are in your family and how frequently they
forget to turn off the lights. Plus, having 400W of incandescent bulbs on is
400 more watts that the A/C system has to cool.

~~~
ars
A good rule of thumb is it takes and extra 1/3 as much electricity to cool.

So your 400 watts of bulbs will consume 133 watts in the cooling process.

------
com2kid
I am unimpressed by 60 watt equivalent bulbs. A 60 watt equivalent is about
enough to be a desk lamp, if I need to provide light for even a small room it
is a useless amount unless I get a large number of bulbs together.

Unfortunately 60 watt equivalent has become some sort of benchmark for new
light bulb technology. If you really want to replace lighting in some
meaningful way, start quoting 100 watt equivalent numbers to me.

~~~
ajross
If only someone made a "fixture" for lighting with multiple bulb sockets in a
convenient, attractive mounting that could be attached to the ceiling of a
room.

The 60W incandescent light bulb has been the "standard lightbulb" since before
most of us were born. Honestly I don't understand this criticism at all.
Certainly LED lighting is available in many form factors other than a 60W
bulb...

~~~
com2kid
> If only someone made a "fixture" for lighting with multiple bulb sockets in
> a convenient, attractive mounting that could be attached to the ceiling of a
> room.

My condo's living room doesn't have a ceiling mounted light fixture, or a
place to install one at. I'm sure the job could be done, but it'd be a major
pain.

> The 60W incandescent light bulb has been the "standard lightbulb" since
> before most of us were born. Honestly I don't understand this criticism at
> all. Certainly LED lighting is available in many form factors other than a
> 60W bulb...

Thus I'm stuck using a stupid stand lamp, which right now is only 1 bulb. (My
previous 3 bulb stand started smoking when I put in a 150W equivalent CFL,
heh)

Sure 60W has been standard, but for what purpose? Just one of them is useless,
and heck 3 of them isn't much better. 3 75s is actually useful, and a couple
of 100s is preferred.

~~~
ajross
Without getting into the minutiae of lumens and efficiency metrics for
different lighting technologies...

It never occurred to you just to buy a second lamp?

~~~
com2kid
> It never occurred to you just to buy a second lamp?

I'd love to. 750sqft Condo, I have one outlet that is hooked to a switch,
other outlets are either in some horrid location or already used up with a
power strip attached.

Not everyone has large open areas that they can just throw stuff in.

What I need to do is get a better quality standing lamp that can take a slew
of light bulbs! But even then, I am not going to be going for 60W, why should
I when I can go farther with fewer bulbs of a slightly higher wattage? (Or
wattage equivalent in the case of LED and CFLs)

~~~
clauretano
I feel your pain. I'm also unable to go the ceiling light route (solid
concrete floors and ceilings). The best solution I've found is sticking a
wireless switch on the wall next to the regular light switches. There are ones
that look like a regular modern style wall switch, just thick because there
are AAAs in it. The one I have is just some cheap thing that was on Amazon,
but for larger-scale applications Lutron has a whole line of wireless lighting
control products (Maestro).

I was surprised how bright the 100W-equivalent LED unit from Philips is. It is
rated at 1780 lumens vs 1600 for an incandescent 100W.

------
drakaal
This is Spam. There are a few dozen of these with better economics on Amazon.
And if you want to light a house on the cheap, the LED "ropes" are more
efficient, and will last longer.

Also a CFT would be 12W and cost $2 ($1.25 if you look around). Over 10 years
in most markets that would be cheaper.

PS: My Home is almost 100% LED's. I love them. But that doesn't mean they are
always the cheapest, the most efficient, or the best for the planet. I just
prefer the dimmable nature and the consistent color across the dimming.

~~~
jcampbell1
I dislike the consistent color across dimming. The whole point of dimming
lights is to lower the color temperature. It is impossible to get a candle
like ambiance with LEDs. If you want less total light, it is easy to just turn
fewer lights on.

~~~
hosh
What an amazing insight! Turn on less lights! ;-)

~~~
r00fus
My bedroom has exactly one lamp - aside from dimming (which I use) what do you
recommend?

To "turn on less lights" I'd have to install "more (varied) lights".

------
wtdominey
Prices keep coming down. I was at IKEA last week and they were having a sale
on their E26 LED bulb for only 6 bucks. Hadn't tried their LEDs before (have
others from Home Depot/Lowes) but it has great light/color. Of course it being
IKEA who knows what the actual mileage will be, but they're worth checking
out.

[http://www.ikea.com/us/en/catalog/categories/departments/liv...](http://www.ikea.com/us/en/catalog/categories/departments/living_room/20514/)

~~~
Samuel_Michon
_“it being IKEA who knows what the actual mileage will be”_

When I moved into my home 6,5 years a go, I bought compact fluorescent lamps
at IKEA (the kind that looks like a regular incandescent light bulb). I have
yet to replace one.

~~~
bcl
On the flip-side, I bought those same ones and haven't had them last a year.
Same for the CF from Costco. I'm looking forward to long lasting LEDs. $13 is
still a bit too high to replace all my lights, but I'll pick up a couple for
the most used ones.

------
tocomment
I'd be pretty happy to get away from compact fluorescencts. They're filled
with mercury gas (I think). It's bad news if you break one and inhale it. And
I'm not sure what happens to the mercury when you dispose of them either.

Edit:

For you downvoters out there, it is considered a serious risk. Here's another
article about the problems:
<http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=7431198>

~~~
Nursie
It's no big deal.

www.popularmechanics.com/home/reviews/news/4217864

If you make a habit of breaking them open near your face and inhaling the gas,
you probably have bigger problems. I've read that the actual average mercury
exposure from a broken CFL is less than 10% of the mercury exposure from a
serving of tuna.

~~~
tocomment
Yeah they say that, but then in that same article look at the advice for
cleaning up a broken CFL. If it's no big deal, why do I need to open the
windows, wear gloves, etc?

What is the proper way to handle a broken CFL? Open the windows and let the
room air out for 15 to 30 minutes, then remove as much material as possible
without a vacuum cleaner. Using disposable gloves, scoop the glass onto a
piece of cardboard and wipe the area with a wet paper towel. For smaller
pieces of glass and powder, use duct tape to pull up the fragments and wash
your hands after cleaning up the debris.

~~~
smackfu
Overly paranoid article.

~~~
sigkill
More like CYA article.

------
nsxwolf
I like the color temperature of incandescent bulbs. That alone is worth the
extra electricity expense.

It's a bit funny how many of us obsess about the calibration of our monitors
and tablets, even installing utilities that change the color temperature at
different times of day to be easier on our eyes. But we don't seem to care as
much about the ambient light that we see everywhere.

Also, many of my fixtures expose the bulbs and look ridiculous without a clear
glass incandescent bulb.

~~~
jseliger
Try Switch LEDs:
[http://www.slate.com/articles/technology/technology/2012/11/...](http://www.slate.com/articles/technology/technology/2012/11/switch_led_bulb_the_long_awaited_light_bulb_is_finally_here_is_it_worth.single.html)
. They're actually available, and I have a couple, which are pretty good,
though the upfront cost is high.

~~~
nsxwolf
Looks worth a shot for some rooms/fixtures, but not the chandeliers.

Also: I forgot about my can lights. They don't seem to have that form factor.

------
officialjunk
Rant: when are we going to stop using watts as a unit for lightbulb
"brightness?" The actual unit we care about is only implied by saying "60 watt
equivalent." :(

~~~
cjensen
Yep. 60W incandescent bulbs do not all have the same lumen output, which leads
to LED makers claiming "60W equivalent" when they really mean "equivalent to a
lousy 60W bulb".

------
melling
It seems like we're near the tipping point where LED lights will start to make
an impact:

[http://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.cfm?id=99&t=3](http://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.cfm?id=99&t=3)

In addition, all those places on earth where it's dark at night should be able
to use lower power lights, when the price comes down a little more.

------
ZeroCoin
I just bought a 5k and 2.7k versions from Home Depot here in Canada for $15.97
CAD each.

My only gripe is the ~22% markup over the US pricing when the Canadian Dollar
is worth ~2% more than the American (and has been for some time now).

I found it funny the way they had their lights laid out in my local store.
There has always only ever been one aisle dedicated to twist-in bulbs.

When I entered the store today, and walked straight to that aisle. All I could
find were phillips LED bulbs. Rashes of them. Almost every shelf in the aisle
featured a Phillips LED bulb of some sort, for twice the price of the Crees.
There were even Phillips LED comparison kisosks where consumers could turn on
and off all of Phillips' LED bulbs. It was really quite a spectacle.

I broke down and finally asked a sales rep, only to be told the Cree bulbs
were in the "fancy/expensive" lighting section of the store. The one where
they sell all of the chandeliers and lamps, and you have never been able to
find twist-ins for sale.

My gut feeling is that Phillips is scared they're going to lose market share
over this, and are using their massive Home Depot contracts to negotiate poor
placement for the Crees (and possibly poor pricing?). FYI 90%+ of the bulbs
sold in Home Depots are Phillips.

~~~
justin66
> My gut feeling is that Phillips is scared they're going to lose market share
> over this, and are using their massive Home Depot contracts to negotiate
> poor placement for the Crees (and possibly poor pricing?). FYI 90%+ of the
> bulbs sold in Home Depots are Phillips.

It'd be interesting to know what kind of maneuvering the companies are doing.
Here in the US Cree is paying for a single "end cap" (end of the aisle
placement in the front of the store) and the bulbs are selling out fast. Home
depot is also their main distributor. But the store is littered with other
brands, not just Philips.

~~~
ZeroCoin
I should take a picture of my Local home depot's light bulb "selection", it
truly is humorous.

I picked up my two cree bulbs in an "end cap"-esque box today, however it was
not at the end of any aisle, rather hidden away in the lamp section.

------
kyrra
So I'm wondering how well this bulb would do in the L-Prize competition[1]. It
looks like they have a number of testing requirements, but their primary goal
is to have a good lumen output and lumen/watt ratio. It's run by the US
Department Of Energy. Consumer Reports[2] started testing the previous
winner[3] of the L-Prize competition.

[1] <http://www.lightingprize.org/>

[2] [http://news.consumerreports.org/home/2012/08/first-look-
at-t...](http://news.consumerreports.org/home/2012/08/first-look-at-the-
philips-l-prize-led.html)

[3] [http://www.usa.philips.com/c/energy-saving-light-
bulbs/ambie...](http://www.usa.philips.com/c/energy-saving-light-
bulbs/ambientled-12.5w-a19-soft-white-dimmable-046677409906/prd/en/)

~~~
ars
It doesn't meet the requirements, so it can't enter.

The competition requires a CRI of at least 90, but this bulb only rates 80.

------
lucaspiller
> These are white LEDs, that is, blue LEDs covered with a white-light-emitting
> phosphor

Could someone explain that a bit more please?

~~~
Steuard
I'm not an expert (just a physics prof), but my understanding is that LEDs
always emit one specific color (wavelength) of light rather than white light
(which is a mixture of many wavelengths). So if you want to use an LED to
produce white light, you set up a material that absorbs light at one
wavelength and then re-emits it in a wide variety of wavelengths (that is, the
phosphor).

(This is also the way that fluorescent bulbs work: the hot mercury vapor
inside produces invisible ultraviolet light, but the phosphorescent coating
absorbs that UV and re-emits it in a range of visible wavelengths. And it's no
coincidence that they're using a blue LED with a short wavelength: in general,
a phosphor can only re-emit at longer wavelengths than it absorbed. That may
imply that these bulbs emit little or no violet in their "white" light, since
violet has a shorter wavelength than blue.)

~~~
hcarvalhoalves
If it uses a phosphor coating, isn't it also prone to the same issue of
diminishing lumens over time as the CFLs? These bulbs lose up to 30%
luminosity in 6 months (the tri-phospor ones, more expensive, can a last a
year begore losing 10%/20%).

If they lose power like CFLs, even though the warranty is 10 years, you may be
forced to replace it way before that.

~~~
Steuard
I don't think I can comment on that with any authority at all. Is it possible
that using a blue light as the source rather than UV reduces the degradation
of the phosphorescent coating?

------
codemonkeymike
The real benefit comes from not having to break out the ladder every time your
ceiling light goes out.

~~~
wtdominey
Exactly. I have a friend who never turns on his (high) ceiling lights to avoid
replacing the bulbs. I suggested LEDs. Funny, for he'd rather the bulbs be
functional and never on than non-functional and never on, which is kind of OCD
when you think about it.

------
EEGuy
Something not qualified numerically about LED or CFL lamps, but a moderate
consideration for me is analog FM radio interference ("RFI").

In one of the smallest rooms of my house, there are two of the Philips LED
bulbs of the "yellow when off" variety. In an adjoining area there is another
bulb of the same type.

There is audible RFI with the room's lights on when the battery-powered FM
radio (with a rod antenna, about 3 feet from one of the bulbs) is accurately
tuned in to a favorite but moderately distant (perhaps 30 miles), moderately
powered (6 KW, not a lot) FM station. Moving the rod antenna away can stop the
RFI, but then the antenna happens to block a doorway.

Turning off the lighting stops the RFI. The lamp in the adjoining room is
apparently distant enough not to interfere with the FM radio.

I wonder if the CREE bulbs are any better in this regard, but not seeing
anything in the teardown pictures that looks like shielding or ferrite chokes
makes means I'll probably keep the existing bulbs; the RFI isn't bad enough.

------
ahen
Note: author did a followup article with questions for Cree (manufacturer) a
week later: [http://www.designingwithleds.com/qa-with-cree-
about-60w-repl...](http://www.designingwithleds.com/qa-with-cree-
about-60w-replacement-led-bulb/)

------
protomyth
As a side note, there is an fxguidetv[1] episode[2] where they talk to Dedo
Weigert about LEDs. It is a very interesting interview that talks about some
LED myths and color temperature.

1) <http://www.fxguide.com/fxguidetv>

2) [http://www.fxguide.com/fxguidetv/fxguidetv-170-dedo-on-
dedol...](http://www.fxguide.com/fxguidetv/fxguidetv-170-dedo-on-dedolight/)

------
natch
Surprised that site has not done a teardown of the (more expensive) Phillips
bulbs that have similar specs. They've been around longer and are the ugly
oddly shaped yellow plastic ones. Mine have a bit of a buzzing sound when
dimmed, even though the packaging claims this won't happen... am thinking of
moving to Crees but it would be nice to see a comparison of the innards.

~~~
lutusp
> They've been around longer and are the ugly oddly shaped yellow plastic
> ones.

They're certainly ugly, but for the record, they aren't yellow when powered. I
also learned today that they have a little fan inside -- supposedly silent in
most circumstances.

I suspect that ten or twenty years from now we'll look back on these early
designs and laugh our heads off. Just as with computers.

------
mp99e99
Its amazing how small changes like these can cause a seachange in power
consumption real difference in our collective future. This change alone could
be a serious bear market for power companies! This, mixed with generally
growing renewable means a greener planet may be closer than we think... most
data assume constant consumption/or growth with population.

------
chaostheory
I'm not sure how revolutionary this is mainly because I live in a state the
subsidizes the cost of energy efficient light bulbs and the IKEAs sell $10 60W
equivalents.

~~~
ars
$10 for a CFL?? Or led? Because CFL's cost about $1, not $10.

------
DSingularity
10 year warranty. Wow.

------
efraim
Here's a video teardown of one of these:
<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dlyYjcXgz1s>

------
deweller
Anyone else having trouble actually buying these? I ordered two on March 7th
and am still waiting for delivery to my local Home Depot.

~~~
lutusp
The good news is that Home Depot's price for this item is lower than anyone
else's. (Amazon.com has the same item for $17.44.) The bad news is they can't
actually deliver it.

This is a common practice -- attract shoppers with a killer low price on an
item that, for one reason or another, isn't actually available. I'm not saying
Home Depot intentionally did this -- maybe they innocently underestimated
public interest.

~~~
dhstylez
Actually I saw a bunch of these in-store today. The Cree "60W replacement" was
~$10.

FWIW, I picked up 'Philips 9.5-Watt BR30 Indoor Flood Soft White (2700K) LED
Light Bulb (4-Pack)' for $60 online from Home Depot, thought it was a pretty
decent deal at the time.

~~~
lutusp
> Actually I saw a bunch of these in-store today. The Cree "60W replacement"
> was ~$10.

Why not say where? I don't think anyone will object that you're flogging a
particular source. Your quoted price is lower than anywhere else by a
substantial margin.

~~~
dhstylez
Oops, thought Home Depot was implied by replies/context, guess not

------
craftkiller
Not that anyone would care, but I have one of these illuminating my room right
now. I think I am done with CFLs.

------
protomyth
So, what LED bulb is available to replace 100W incandescent?

~~~
chaostheory
It already came out last year:
[http://www.extremetech.com/electronics/128669-philips-
new-10...](http://www.extremetech.com/electronics/128669-philips-
new-100w-equivalent-led-bulb-runs-on-just-23w)

~~~
protomyth
Is it any good?

~~~
duskwuff
Yes - the Phillips bulbs are excellent. The yellow "lobes" on the side look a
little weird when it's off, but the bulb puts out an BRIGHT warm-white light
when turned on. They dim very well, too.

