
Let’s Talk about Ghastly Dishwashers - hirundo
https://www.aier.org/article/lets-talk-about-ghastly-dishwashers/
======
Spellman
Major life improvement: get detergent that has protease enzymes.

Now that phosphates have been removed, the bargain bin detergent won't cut it.
But if you buy ones with enzymes they will cut through the caked on proteins
and clean your dishes properly.

From Wirecutter: (source [https://thewirecutter.com/reviews/the-best-
dishwasher/](https://thewirecutter.com/reviews/the-best-dishwasher/))
Dishwashers and detergents have changed. They used to blast the hell out of
dishes with tons of hot water sprayed at high pressure, using strong
detergents. But starting in the 1990s, efficiency regulations forced
dishwashers to gradually become thriftier with water and energy. Then in 2010,
phosphates disappeared from detergents.2 The industry switched to enzyme-based
detergents, which work by breaking down food into smaller molecules (like the
enzymes in your gut), and are biodegradable and easy to remove from water.
After a few rough years of adjusting to this gentler, more-efficient paradigm,
dishwashers and detergents emerged better than before. “Today’s dishwashers
are really cleaning better than anything out there and use less water,” Barry
said. “The key is that you have to use them properly, you need to load them
properly, and use the right detergent.”

EDIT: also from the article, don't pre-rinse. It's counter intuitive, but
modern systems have sensors and if the water looks too clean, they can stop
the cycle prematurely. So leave on some food and let the enzymes handle it.

~~~
Eric_WVGG
Hm. I have absolutely no idea what this writer is talking about. I had no
dishwasher for about twenty years, then bought one about three years ago, and
it’s magnificent. Not even an expensive one, just a countertop Sunpentown.

I’ve always bought “good” (not cheap) detergent and “rinse-aid”, so I wouldn’t
be at all surprised if you’re right.

~~~
grawprog
I have to agree, moved into a place with a dishwasher for the first time about
7 months ago. It was probably my favourite thing about the place. It always
worked really well and I just bought the cheaps bags of Sunlight detergent and
didn't really put that much care into loading it. I usually just filled it
until I couldn't fit anything else in.

------
webwielder2
It's funny how the author's response to the dishwasher problem is not "we need
to improve dishwasher regulations" but rather "regulations are bad." Do these
"free enterprise" types really want to walk around breathing leaded gasoline
spewing from cars without catalytic converters or seatbelts?

~~~
jandrese
I read the first half of the article and came away with the impression that
dishwashers today are in the same place low flow toilets were in the 90s. They
implemented the environmental protection without rethinking the basic
functionality and ended up with a markedly inferior product.

If you buy a toilet today it is even better than the old high-flow toilets
from the early 20th century in terms of needing only one flush and not being
prone to clogs, but there was a time where they were pretty awful.

So the answer may be that the dishwasher industry needs to work harder to more
efficiently use that little bit of water and actually get stuff clean.

I will say that I replaced my dishwasher last year and the new one is prone to
leaving food residue stuck to the inside of the cups. We even tried pre-
rinsing, which we never did in the old one, but it didn't help. We didn't buy
some bargain basement model either, it was basically the 2018 version of the
same washer we previously used.

~~~
adrianmonk
> _answer may be that the dishwasher industry needs to work harder to more
> efficiently use that little bit of water and actually get stuff clean_

The article points out that dishwasher sales have risen. You could even go so
far as to say that this is a good thing.

Assuming it's possible to solve the technical challenges, then the
manufacturer who does it gains a competitive advantage. And a big one if, as
the article suggests, the primary reason people are replacing dishwashers is
dissatisfaction with how well they clean. People who believe in the beneficial
effects of competition in the free market should appreciate that.

If consumers are willing to fork over the money, then it is worthwhile to
invest in the technology R&D, so the capital becomes available. So while this
increase in consumer spending is annoying for consumers in the short term, in
the long term it is part of the solution.

~~~
jandrese
The danger being that if someone can demonstrate a system that properly cleans
the dishes again with taking an excessive amount of time they could blow up
the market and leave the legacy brands in the dust. Especially if the product
is not designed to fall apart after 5 years.

------
commandlinefan
This would be a lot more compelling if he addressed what the upside of the
regulations are. Obviously using less water means more water for everybody,
but why are phosphates bad? According to wikipedia, it's because they degrade
the overall water quality - if he wants them put back, he needs to come up
with a way to offset water degradation.

~~~
mhb
It's not obvious that everyone needs more water everywhere.

~~~
dayofthedaleks
There is a non-trivial energy and chemical expense in purifying water for home
use.

~~~
thrower123
Avoiding running the pump on my artesian well a couple seconds more and
putting a couple gallons more a day into my over-provisioned leach field is
not worth having to run the dishwasher multiple times or handwash them first.

------
reportingsjr
This article is one of those that only looks at the very surface of an issue
and immediately jumps to conclusions. My take from this is that the author
hates governments and wants to blame issues on governments regulating.

The bit about phosphates being banned doesn't go in to /why/ they were banned.
There's a very good reason for it! As use of phosphates grew over the last
~200 years in materials like soap, our waterways became incredibly polluted.
Phosphorous in water is one of the major causes of the massive algal blooms
that constantly occur as well as the ever growing dead zones in oceans near
river outlets. Even today with reduced phosphorous soaps wastewaters
contributes about half of the phosphorous in our waters.

Something to think about when complaining about the government causing water
spots on dishes.

------
chadash
None of this rings true to me. I just got a new dishwasher to replace one that
was about 15 years old. And the new one works great. The dishes come out clean
every time. And compared to the older model, you can barely hear this one
running. There's a 1 hour cycle that I use if the dishes aren't very dirty,
but for a tougher load, I run the longer cycles. Personally, shorter cycle
times aren't really of much benefit... I run the dishwasher overnight.

~~~
adrianmonk
Same story here. I use the 1-hour cycle maybe 10% of the time.

The people who made my dishwasher included a 4-hour delay start. I _love_ this
feature because it means I never have to listen to the dishwasher. Which is
such a huge improvement that I do it that way if at all possible.

~~~
chadash
Ah, the delay feature is amazing. I set mine for 4 hours at 8 or 9pm. Then,
it'll go off at 12 or 1am if I don't do anything. But in the meantime, if I
have any glasses or other late-night-snack-dishes, I just throw them in in the
meantime.

------
thoughtleader31
This is a very simplistic analysis of these particular regulations, and not at
all a way to extrapolate to regulations in general.

If we have no way of making up for the water consumption and pollution caused
by appliances, then there is no tax that you can impose on it to make up for
the externalities.

Regulating the way they function is the only way around the issues that you
just can't encode in price.

------
trynewideas
Political conservative commentators get hung up on dishwashers as the answer
to everything that's declined since the 1950s, because "regulations screwed
them up".

The technology changed, but many people's usage of them hasn't, because they
used to be simple but inefficient devices that overworked to accomplish a
specific task (as described in totally self-unaware and _excrutiating_ detail
here) but are now more complex devices that require more than zero thought or
effort.

------
wycy
This is strange to me. I've always only had crappy apartment dishwashers, and
they always get the job done. Beyond about a 1 second rinse, I do no pre-
cleaning either. Is it really common for dishwashers to be ineffective?

~~~
sjg007
A lot of it depends on you local water chemistry, finding the right detergent
for that, your hot water temp and then the dishwasher itself. I've found that
lemishine detergent or the kirkland one work the best.

Also if you are buying a dishwasher get the one with the fewest features. I
have 7 fancy cleaning options on my KitchenAid and only the "normal" wash
actually cleans. Not to mention it leaks steam out a top seal when on sanitize
mode so it's basically useless (a design flaw).

Extra rinse, sanitize every other combo leaves the dishes with a hard film. I
have to run lemi shine as well no matter what since we have really hard water.
I do like that my dishwasher is quiet but you can just generally just put
plastic and an insulation blanket over an old one to quite it down too. Best
dishwasher I had in an apartment was a 1980s GE.. one with the yellow door. It
was loud though. They were super reliable. Newer dishwashers with fancier
features break down more often. Older dishwashers are better because they use
more water. If you can save an older dishwasher by replacing the door say to
match you kitchen, I would do so.

Also if you are buying a new dishwasher, go in and investigate the racks. A
lot of folks get a 3rd rack especially when you have a new baby. Be sure your
bottles and caps and everything fits (if you want to use the dishwasher to fit
them).. I have a third rack that is useless for anything except flat objects.
I can wash like 20 sets of silver ware that I don't really need that feature.

Also check the dishwasher rack rollers. I find those things wear out and break
especially if they are thermo plastic roughly every 2-3 years. Searched for
the part online and everyone complains about them.

Today I would buy a Miele over a KitchenAid. I would also buy a Bosch or
Whirlpool over both of those.

------
rsynnott
I can never figure out if these people who have all this trouble with modern
dishwashers are doing something really odd, or is there some specific design
defect in American dishwashers (beyond the water and energy usage
restrictions; European ones are generally stricter) that we don't get over
here. "Dishwasher doesn't work properly" seems to be a big talking point in
the US, but I've never really seen it here.

Only time I've ever really seen dishwasher problems in person is when people
aren't cleaning the filters. Which is an easy and routine task.

------
kube-system
"Make lazy engineering lazy again."

High performing appliances still exist -- you just can't get high performance
by ignoring environmental concerns anymore.

------
JanSolo
I've also noticed that Dishwashers are less effective than they used to be. I
thought it was because I was cheaping-out and getting the most affordable one
I could find. So this time, I bought a top-of-the-range Bosch. My wife hates
it.

~~~
jethro_tell
Huh, I probably have the same machine and have no issues with it. If I run the
normal cycle 90 minutes, it gets about 99% of dishes clean, there might be one
that I'll rewash or wash by hand one every other run.

When I have a lot of dishes, like with family over, I'll run the 1/2 hour
cycle and 80% of dishes come out clean, then I'll swap out 80% and run the 1/2
hour cycle again, I might leave a few in there on the long cycle when I'm done
and in the time it takes to do one load, I've cleaned dishes for 12.

------
seiferteric
Mine is only a few years old and works pretty well, although it does take a
really long time. The trick is to clean the filter once in a while. In my old
house I noticed it was not cleaning that well until I found the filter was
clogged with all sorts of debris. After cleaning it worked great again.

~~~
JakeTheAndroid
When I was growing up, we had a high end dishwasher - like 2001 through 2007.
Our dishwasher worked great for a while, and then it just sucked. It was
because I didn't clean the filter and it was just throwing crap all over the
place every cycle.

When I eventually got a dishwasher when I was older, it was a real crap one in
like 2015. I kept the filter cleaned, and it did a great job. Same in my
current place. The wash time is longer, that is true. I think most people just
never clean the filter. They use the dishwasher to solve the problem, they
don't think about cleaning the thing thats cleaning their stuff. People also
basically never clean their ovens, so why would we expect them to clean the
dishwasher?

I'd wager this is a huge part of peoples deteriorating dish washer quality.

------
dishwasherwhat
I honestly thought this article was satire 3/4 of the way through the read.

The only time I have ever had an issue with a dishwasher, be it old or new, is
when I used dollar store quality dishwashing detergent.

My dishwasher has a quick wash setting and gets an entire load done and well
cleaned in 45 minutes.

I don’t use that setting because I don’t mind how long it takes because it’s
not like I have to stand around or actively wait for it to finish, I usually
run it over night anyway. It’s the same reason I don’t mind if the Roomba
takes 2.5 hours to run while it only takes me <15 minutes to sweep.

------
Nextgrid
I wonder if there's eventually going to be appliance hacking projects to
modify firmwares so they uses more water, heat & pressure to be on part with
the older units in terms of performance.

~~~
rolleiflex
There already are. Check how many views this home video about removing flow
restrictors from shower heads has:
[https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Wa1OBA5H6zI](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Wa1OBA5H6zI)

Likewise, the limitations on electric bicycles made it so that no mass
produced bike is really useful — but homemade ones are, thus reducing overall
safety.

------
loudmax
Our new Bosch is a huge improvement over the Whirlpool it replaced. It runs
quieter and the dishes are far cleaner. The one aspect the old Whirlpool did
better in was speed, running in about half the time as the new one. But
considering that the Bosch is silent and the dishes that come out of it are
spotless, it's worth the wait.

But this article isn't really about dishwashers. This is a rant about
government regulation(aka "laws"). Laws are hard to get right. Often,
lawmakers regulate the symptoms of a problem rather than regulating the core
issue. The issue here is water and energy efficiency. The article is right to
point out that laws governing the design of appliances is a terrible way to
address the issue.

But to pretend that water and energy efficiency don't matter is to blind
oneself to the major challenge that humanity will face in the 21st century. In
a lot of places, water is carelessly pumped from aquifers faster than it's
being replaced. This is a localized problem. The world over, carbon is cheaply
converted from fossil remains into the atmosphere and changing the climate.
This is a global problem.

Let's see the American Institute for Economic Research endorse some real
solutions for real problems. Maybe sensibly taxing aquifer water or carbon
emission.

------
thrower123
My very expensive Viking dishwasher has a cycle time of two hours and forty-
five minutes. I regret replacing the old Kenmore that was here when we bought
the house.

------
theothermkn
A thought on the political, rather than technical, side of the story:

I went through a regrettable phase of reading about military strategy and the
like, and one of the things that stuck was how good strategies need to have a
component of randomness to them, to make them unpredictable by the enemy.
Trump _is_ chaos and randomness, and him having landed on this issue, and in
such a random (?) and (apparently?) sexist way is both testament to that, and
an indicator of the danger he poses to Democrats and what passes for the left
in the US: They've left themselves exposed on many fronts because they've
faced a very ordered and predictable foe until Trump. Nobody, but nobody, on
the right would have launched an attack on the left with "women have told me
dishwashers suck, now," before Trump, so they were free to pass stricter and
stricter regulations, unpunished by the cost to consumer satisfaction.

I am loath to admit it, but there is something to be admired, here, some kind
of low genius that demands respect, under threat of great peril if respect is
not afforded.

~~~
mr_woozy
I don't like him, but I admire his ability to get some people so frothing at
the mouth angry.

He's perfected a strategy that is a perfect counter to modern media's tactic
of scrutiny and demonetization of any and all personality traits.

------
wefarrell
I was surprised to see an ad from NYC government that recommended running your
tap for 30 seconds before consuming water to remove any sediments from the
pipes. This leads me to believe that household water conservation is not so
important in the region. Also considering things like pools and gold courses,
I imagine water conservation within a house has almost no impact.

~~~
thrower123
It is a vastly smaller problem on the east coast than it is on the west coast
or even the midwest. There's more fresh water than we'll ever use, and we're
not doing stupid crap like opening the shuttlecocks and dumping paper mill
waste downstream anymore.

------
celerrimus
Well, from my European point of view, dishwashers are as good as 20 years ago.
And we have rather strict energy/water norms. Normal program is quite long,
like 2h50min, but you can get it to 1h30, and we have almost perfectly clean
dishes - sometimes very small spots of retained/burnt residues remains they
are dried before washing.

In my experience, foggy and spotted glass is result of too much shiner. Today
almost or all dishwasher tabs have it inside, so you need to ignore error from
dishwasher and put no additional shiner to the machine.

------
klodolph
Huh. I don’t understand it. Over the past years, I’ve moved several times, and
lived with five different dishwashers. The dishes come out… clean, except for
the occasional bit of rice wedged between tines of a fork or dried guacamole.
I do a lot of cooking. I’ve used a few different detergents and never had a
problem. I only rarely rinse anything off before putting it in the dishwasher.
Most of these have been cheap dishwashers in apartments I rent.

The cycles are long, sure, but I’m usually running the dishwasher before bed
or before leaving for work.

------
cowpig
I'd be interested to hear from those that wrote up the regulations.

I assume, for example, that there was a good reason phosphates were banned.
But that there has not been an effective replacement is certainly something
worth talking about.

I don't know enough about the topic to know what to recommend, but this
conclusion:

> If people knew the full extent to which government regulations have messed
> up our lives, there would be mass outrage in this country.

is as helpful as the headlines the author criticizes, and for the same
underlying reasons.

------
dayofthedaleks
I've found recent dishwashers to work fine, as long as you rinse off obvious
cruds first. Super greasy pans get a manual wash and a dishwasher finish.

This article felt like my father in law complaining about shrinking portions
at the grocery store, except from the 'expert' perspective of an economist
rather than an engineer.

If you really think the efficient machines aren't getting the job done, Hobart
continues to manufacture heavy duty machines that look fine in a home kitchen.

------
neonate
[https://web.archive.org/web/20191220180247/https://www.aier....](https://web.archive.org/web/20191220180247/https://www.aier.org/article/lets-
talk-about-ghastly-dishwashers/)

------
vesky
I have a 3 year old dishwasher and I've never had the issues described in the
article. We use Somat Gold Gel, which from a quick Amazon search doesn't seem
to be available in the US so there might be something there.

------
olafalo
> Less water [use], sure, but more electricity

Well, no. As dishwashers get more energy efficient, they tend to use less
water as well[0]. And dishwashers have steadily been using less electricity
and water.

> One in five homes have just stopped using their dishwashers altogether

The survey that is linked here[1] says "less than once per week," not "stopped
altogether". The writer of the linked article suggests that the reason is the
misconception that washing dishes by hand uses less energy, so people
(especially in smaller or poorer households) are washing dishes by hand
instead of using their dishwasher.

> Thanks to federal mandates, all phosphates were eliminated from detergent

Yep, those federal jerks hate us citizens having clean dishes! Or, wait, turns
out those phosphates are environmentally damaging, which sounds like a good
enough reason to me to remove them from detergent.

Moving on to a more anecdotal response - I have literally never heard anyone
complain about their dishwasher not working. I have never had or used a
dishwasher that didn't clean the heck out of whatever was in it. The idea that
"dishwashers are bad nowadays" is completely foreign to me. And, personally,
it does strike me as pretty weird that Trump and the article author consider
dishwashers to be a "feminist issue."

[0]:
[https://aceee.org/files/proceedings/2008/data/papers/1_123.p...](https://aceee.org/files/proceedings/2008/data/papers/1_123.pdf)

[1]: [https://www.reviewed.com/dishwashers/news/survey-
says-1-in-5...](https://www.reviewed.com/dishwashers/news/survey-
says-1-in-5-americans-dont-use-their-dishwashers)

~~~
JakeTheAndroid
I also wonder how much of the lack of dishwasher usage is at all tied to
trends of people eating out or getting delivery. I simply don't produce as
many dishes as I used to when I can get something like Freshly, that comes in
a container ready to be heated up, or Postmates where I don't need to plate
anything. That's ignoring actually going out to a restaurant or something like
that. If those trends have increased like they have for me, then people simply
don't need to do dishes as often as they used to.

------
dmitriid
My cheap IKEA dishwater has a (non-default) cycle of 36 minutes, and it gets
the job done.

However, I do agree it's getting harder and harder to find dishwashers and
washing machines with short cycles

------
aj7
Sorry. This type of guy would gut clean air, water, FDA, “regulations,” you
name it, in the name of “free-market” capitalism. I put regulations in
quotation marks because they’ve actually utterly integral to a complex
technological society. So he writes an interesting piece on a problem some of
us have. But he is disguising his intent. Moreover, solving the problems he
points out looks like an excellent business opportunity.

------
smacktoward
_> Founded in 1933, American Institute for Economic Research educates
Americans on the value of personal freedom, free enterprise, property rights,
limited government and sound money._

(Source: [https://www.aier.org/opportunities-at-
aier/](https://www.aier.org/opportunities-at-aier/))

So a conservative, business-viewpoint think tank thinks a regulation is bad.

Who'da thunk?

~~~
zucked
We should absolutely take the chance to engage and debate it since it is a POV
that has some research to back up their claim. Disagree? That's fine! But do
it in a constructive way - we cannot discourage this type of discourse in
America, certainly not now.

~~~
jethro_tell
what is the research? He said dishwasher cycles are longer, so that's fine,
then he said the don't clean. But where is the research on that?

------
strict9
_> All of this is directly due to government regulations._

 _> These regulations have caused an infuriating and devastating degradation
of the quality of appliances and the quality of life in our homes. Trump is a
smart politician._

Of course the source of all ills is the gubmint. It has absolutely nothing to
do with maximizing shareholder value by selling products that are cheaper to
produce that don't last as long.

I also have a GE oscillating fan from the 1940s that still works well today,
though the fan blade cage isn't safe for kids that might try to touch them.
I've also gone through 3 plastic Vornado desk fans in about 5 years. Is this a
direct result of government intervention too?

This is a poorly written article with a political agenda masquerading as an
essay in the durability and quality of consumer electronics.

------
JacobHenner
Laundry machines, too

------
paggle
Huh! I have to run the dishes twice in my brand new dishwasher and it
aggravates me. I wash the second time without soap or the dishes come out with
soap scum all over them.

~~~
JshWright
Are you using a rinse-aid?

~~~
paggle
No, because I don’t want the rinse aid crap on my dishes either.

~~~
JshWright
The whole point of the rise aid is that is makes it easier for the dishwasher
to rinse soap off the dishes.

~~~
paggle
It’s very clear that some of the rinse aid is left over on the dishes. You can
taste it.

