
Apple Rejects Appeal of Email App That Blasted Store Rules - g_p
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-06-18/apple-rejects-appeal-of-email-app-that-criticized-app-store-rule
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statictype
I love how Apple pretends the way people get these apps is by browsing the
appstore interface and “discovering” them instead of jumping into it from a
webpage or google search.

Who is downloading and using HEY by searching for email apps in the app store?

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s3r3nity
Basecamp knew what they were doing here - there's no way they can be in the
wrong by the community, which comes off as disingenuous to me. They either:

1) win, and are seen as "David beating Goliath" , or

2) lose, and Apple comes off as the bad guy trying to fleece a private
company.

(They could also lose because they weren't clear on the actual policies, a la
the "malice vs. incompetence" rule of thumb. However Basecamp and its team
have been in the game long enough to know what to expect with the App Store. I
don't KNOW that, but that's my analysis here.)

My argument around this goes back to market share: iOS owns, at best, 25% of
the global market share for mobile operating systems [1]. Android is 3x that.

If you don't like the platform policies, they're a minor share of the market -
you don't _have_ to use them.

"But $s3r3nity, that is where the paying users are!"

Yes, and the spend per person for lamborghini owners probably is much much
higher than Prius owners, even though the latter vastly outnumber the former.
That doesn't mean the former needs to support any company that wants to make a
carplay / carOS service.

[1] [https://gs.statcounter.com/os-market-
share/mobile/worldwide](https://gs.statcounter.com/os-market-
share/mobile/worldwide)

EDIT: grammar / spelling

~~~
Shank
> Basecamp knew what they were doing here - there's no way they can be in the
> wrong by the community, which comes off as disingenuous to me.

Let's assume that everything has been calculated. That DHH knew this would
happen and that the whole thing was going to blow up the way it has.

On that assumption, is it truly disingenuous to anyone but Apple? It seems
like it only benefits customers and smaller businesses, at least economically.

I can see the argument that the in-app purchase API is better and easier for
customers to use. I actually really enjoy paying for things with Apple Pay.
That benefit makes sense, from a consumer perspective.

On the other hand though, a 30% commission benefits only Apple. If this was a
5% cut it would be expensive, but comparable to Stripe and Braintree, which
fall in the 1-3% range. Even a 10% cut would be similar. In this scenario,
Apple would get a substantial amount of cash, users would get the Apple Pay
experience, and it would be easier for developers to stomach the cost. The
fact of the matter is that the 30% amount is entirely arbitrary. That cost is
either eaten by customers or by developers, and doesn't benefit anyone but
Apple.

Running the App Store isn't free. I can definitely see them asking for some
amount of cash for bandwidth or maintenance, and I can see justifying _some_
percentage fee or some proportional fee. It's just that for a lot of people,
30% is exorbitant for the value offered.

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harryh
_30% is exorbitant for the value offered._

The value offered isn't the service of processing the payment or being listed
in an app store directory. These are small things. What you're really paying
for is the ability to access the iOS market: one of the largest and most
successful platforms in the world. That has tremendous value.

~~~
nico_h
yeah, but it's kinda self limiting. If the fee was 5% maybe netflix would
still be offering subscriptions in the app. And there might be more paid app
in the store. And spotify might not be pushing for antitrust in Europe. The
kindle app might offer in app purchase.

How many developers look at the fee, see the app they want to make and realize
they would never be able to charge enough to make it worth it after the cut
and the sales taxes? I think that's one reason the iPad software is not the
success it could be.

~~~
harryh
Indeed, it is entirely possible that Apple is charging too much in some cases
and reducing the quantity of interesting apps that might otherwise be built.

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coffeefirst
These rules are arbitrary and incoherent.

But, if Hey adds custom domain support (which they're planning to do anyway),
does that make it a business app, and therefore acceptable?

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Shank
Hey already has a "for work" page up on their site:
[https://hey.com/work/](https://hey.com/work/). I think they're trying to play
this card as much as they can, but I'm not sure it'll work.

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dccoolgai
It's DHH. Simultaneously love and hate the guy. He knew he was breaking the
rules.. knew there would be a big dust-up over it he could fan into a bunch of
free press for his launch. Knowing how to work media like this is what
separates people like him from people like us.

~~~
mtmail
I think he's in the right. But also agree it's a lot of PR he's enjoying. Last
year he fought against Facebook "delete your account", a couple of months ago
how more companies should offer remote work (pointing to their book/ebook). 20
tweets/day attacking big companies, he's used to that, has the audience and
press contacts.

~~~
dccoolgai
Oh, so do I. I hope he wins, I'm just saying he's already won in the most
important way. No one would have heard of Hey, now it's news. 1B worth of
marketing, at least.

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KCUOJJQJ
One country should decide to fine Apple. The fine should be a tenth of the
market capitalization. Problem solved.

~~~
austinshea
Do you think something like this might happen?

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asciimike
Somewhat confused why Superhuman doesn't seem to have this problem yet Hey
does? They're both email clients that have monthly billing, yes?

Superhuman doesn't let you sign up for an account (you just sign in with
Gmail), so maybe that's a difference?

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wrsh07
This is deeply unethical on Apple's part and honestly feels like a harbinger
of an Apple I find as distasteful as any other megacorp only interested in
profit

Requiring apps that are selling digital content to fork over 30% of their
revenue is shitty. Apple could do right by their customers: if they didn't
fleece developers in the app store, most developers would use the native Apple
payment API.

Apple is abusing the power of having a blessed app store, and they should face
anti trust for this.

I don't really care what you think about David or his cofounders, Apple is in
the wrong here.

This piece is paywalled, but it's worth the price of subscribing for the
month: [https://stratechery.com/2020/xscale-and-arm-in-the-cloud-
hey...](https://stratechery.com/2020/xscale-and-arm-in-the-cloud-hey-versus-
apple-apples-iap-campaign/)

But his Twitter coverage is good too if you don't want to pay:
[https://mobile.twitter.com/benthompson/status/12736306188913...](https://mobile.twitter.com/benthompson/status/1273630618891350016)

~~~
Terretta
On the contrary, Apple doesn’t force apps that are selling digital content to
fork over 30% of their revenue. That is the “reader” category of apps that are
allowed to have an outside subscription, e.g. Netflix, Kindle, Spotify...

The apps that must offer the subscription within the app store, such that
users benefit from visible and pro-consumer recurring billing practices, are
those where you are subscribing to the app’s functionality, not to content.

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Shank
I think we as a developer community should be using this momentum as much as
we can. It's just economics: being able to publish apps on the app store and
not having to take a 30% revenue hit would change the calculus for many indie
and small shop developers. 30% can push many hobby apps into full time
ventures for people. How many better apps and happier developers would we get
if this were the case?

I'm glad that DHH has a loud voice, but Basecamp has a lot of developers and
I'm sure that when push comes to shove, someone will fold. I doubt it will
apply to everyone, though. It would even be easy for Apple to grant an
exception and let Hey continue (much easier than changing the policy for
everyone).

Is there any reason why we, as a community, shouldn't push as hard as we can
here?

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google234123
Are you aware of how much Steam takes? Or the Microsoft Store, or Walmart...

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jfim
Steam: 30% for the first 10M in sales, 25% for 10M-50M, 20% for sales above
50M

Windows Store: 15% or 30%, depending on the product/platform

Epic Store: 12%

Amazon app store: 30% in most cases

Play Store: 30%

Does Walmart actually sell apps?

~~~
Terretta
Apple recurring: 30% year one, 15% years two and beyond

Of my dozens and dozens of app subscriptions, all are only 15% to Apple.

And also, god help me as a consumer if I had to manage those individually by
going to dozens and dozens of different places.

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buboard
> “it is much safer to be feared than loved because ...love is preserved by
> the link of obligation which, owing to the baseness of men, is broken at
> every opportunity for their advantage; but fear preserves you by a dread of
> punishment which never fails.”

