
Texas Is Latest State to Pump the Brakes on Red-Light Cameras - pseudolus
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/06/08/us/texas-cameras-red-lights.html
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zol
I grew up in Australia with red light cameras and super high penalties for
running red lights. Seeing drivers run red lights there is quite rare. I
didn’t think much of it until I moved to the Bay Area where I seem to see
someone run a red, sometimes seconds into it on what seems like a weekly
basis. It’s so common that now when I’m at the front of traffic and the light
turns green I inch forward and look both ways, something I never used to do.
As a cyclist it terrifies me as getting hit by a driver running a red would
most likely be fatal.

It’s probably an unpopular opinion here in the US but I’d like to see more red
light cameras and higher penalties for what is a really dangerous traffic
violation that is easily preventable with a change of drivers’ attitudes.

~~~
swozey
I just moved from a city with a heavy police presence and no red light cameras
to one with them placed sporadically throughout the place and almost no police
presence (massively understaffed department) and I see far, far more runners
in my new city. I see a handful a day. I quit walking to work. I think it's
got a lot to do with driving culture/police presence as well. People get
surprised when they get red light tickets. Maybe the cameras should look more
obvious.

~~~
eigenvector
In Europe, automated traffic enforcement isn't hidden, it's actually clearly
announced by signs. It effectively tells the driver: "if you break the law
here, you will certainly be caught by a machine and fined". The goal is to get
people to follow the law, not to write more tickets.

~~~
cbluth
In the US, it seems to me that the goal is to fine as many violators as
possible, so there is less incentive to warn drivers.

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tempotemporary
What’s the problem in flashing yellow for a longer period of time? Make a
delay long enough for a driver to safely react. Otherwise why bother with
flashing yellow anyway?

We have such thing in Ukraine(and probably other ex USSR) countries. There’s
no surprise red light. You always know when it’s going to come and have enough
time to finish a crossing.

~~~
tsomctl
It's alleged that cities will reduce the length of the yellow so that people
will misjudge and run a red, thus increasing the revenue.

> The annual report for Suffolk County, N.Y., shows that revenue from the red-
> light cameras was about $28.9 million in 2017, with about $9 million of that
> paid to the vendor.

~~~
mises
This is the issue. Yellow light lengths are also inconsistent: I don't know
what to expect. Could be long, could be short. It's not always safe to
suddenly stop, and we don't know which is which.

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kolinko
In which country?

Isn’t there some sort of a regulation on the yellow light duration depending
on the max allowed speed on the road?

Living in a country with yellow lights, I never had a situation when I could
complain that it was too short or too long.

I was taught that yellow means „stop if you can do so comfortably”, and the
very few times I ran a red was definitely my bad call.

~~~
YeahSureWhyNot
its federally mandated to be between 3 to 6 seconds. towns are free to choose
anything in between. some towns that had 5 second yellow lights will change it
to 2 seconds after installing a red light camera and make good amount of money
from locals who knows the length of the yellow and attempt to blow thru

~~~
kolinko
So cities change timings in an illegal way? How is this possible :O

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YeahSureWhyNot
no, typo. they basically change it within limits just to get drivers trapped

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Svip
Americans should consider shorter junction cycles instead. My experience in
the US is that traffic light cycles are long, leading to impatience, and long
queues building up at lights when they turn red, which may even spill into a
junction further down, leading to further congestion.

That's in comparison to Europe, where the traffic light cycles are short,
meaning less cars get through on each cycle of green, but at least everyone
feels they don't have to wait quite as much. Red-light cameras are also rare
in Europe, I have only encountered them in Germany, but they could be
elsewhere.

~~~
tehlike
I dont know how this helps. We do probably need an adaptive cycle, so that it
can adjust based on traffic. On major roads, it can keep ot green for longer.

In south bay, el camino comes to mind, and it can be much better.

~~~
Svip
A lot of junctions in the US have 'intelligent lights' (I don't know the exact
term), where there are plates on some lanes, so it only turns on for a lane if
there are cars in it. That is mostly noticeable for left-turning lanes.

But in Europe, most traffic lights are programmed to act differently based on
the time of day, hence allowing a smoother traffic in rush hour. Or in some
European cities, the lights will switch to flashing yellow at night.

I don't think traffic lights need to be that smart, just scheduled. I have
definitely not heard that European traffic should be significantly worse than
US traffic.

~~~
matwood
The US uses all of those methods in conjunction.

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Svip
And in my opinion, the problem is that the cycle itself is too long. If they
merely tweaked that, the impatience would be lowered, and you might even get
smoother traffic.

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delfinom
The cycle is entirely up to the local Department of Transportation be it a
city, town or state. Where I live we have short cycle lights at heavy
intersections and long cycle lights at intersections where keeping the
primary/heavy road going longer is 100000% more worth it than some side
secondary road with 3 cars every hour. There are also plenty of complex areas
where all the lights on a road are interconnected for miles and the timing is
set to match between them to more efficiently feed cars onto highways and move
them along.

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Spooky23
My city implemented these in a responsible way. They did not change yellow
light duration and the police department selected the placement.

The result has been most ok, they missed their financial targets and there is
a moderate reduction in certain types of accidents, although it’s hard for me
to tell if that was due to the camera or the “no turn on red” at those
intersections.

But the other benefit that few people realize is that these cameras are always
on (including the LPR), and retain video for 30 days. It’s pretty difficult to
leave the city without being recorded. It makes it easier for police to get
camera footage admitted in court as the traffic cameras are a reliable index
to correct time.

It’s not as integrated and creepy as something like the NYPD DAS system, but
also doesn’t get discussed when these systems get set up.

~~~
0xffff2
>But the other benefit that few people realize is that these cameras are
always on (including the LPR), and retain video for 30 days. It’s pretty
difficult to leave the city without being recorded.

That's a _good_ thing?

~~~
Spooky23
I was missing the quotes around “benefit”!

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TwoBit
I would be OK with the cameras if they caught only dangerous egregious
violations. I got a ticket from one of these once simply for stopping too far
short of the right turn line, then it thought I didn't stop when I proceeded
to turn. No human cop would ever ticket that.

~~~
ihattendorf
Something like 1/10 injuries due to red light running are due to failing to
stop on a right turn. There's a reason you're supposed to stop before the
line, a pedestrian can appear seemingly out of the blue and suddenly you run
into them going 10-15+mph.

Should it be a lesser infraction? Probably, but I see far too many cars
speeding through right turns without even looking to the right for pedestrians
every day.

~~~
lttlrck
From What I understand he’s saying he _did_ stop before the stop line, but a
little too early, so when he then made the turn it appeared as is if he hadn’t
stopped.

~~~
ihattendorf
In that case OP should definitely contest the ticket (assuming OP didn't stop
too far back as to not be able to clearly see the intersection). They'll have
video that can be reviewed.

~~~
kahirsch
Video? Do red light cameras have video now?

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inamberclad
The $75 in the article is piddling compared to the bay area. I got a red light
camera ticket here (not debating the ticket itself, I failed to stop before
turning right) and the minimum fine was around $350 plus driving school.

~~~
stjohnswarts
Yeah but median salary in bay area is probably twice to three times what it is
in most urban texas areas. so $350 isn't a big deal.

~~~
noonespecial
Tell that to the person who drove an hour into the city to serve you your
coffee.

Its double regressive. They have to drive more (so risk more tickets) and the
wealth differential makes their fine higher.

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duxup
Minnesota's supreme court shot down such cameras years ago and as far as I
know it didn't turn into mad Max on the roads compared to other states.

It doesn't seem like there is a great deal of benefit.

~~~
dokem
Yea I haven't really ever seen anyone run red lights. Is it even a problem?

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frosted-flakes
I don't think it's common to blatantly run a red light. In fact, it's
extremely frowned upon in Western society, to the point that 99% of people
will wait for the green signal even if it's the middle of the night and
there's no-one around (compare that to, e.g. India, where I've heard that
traffic signals are mere suggestions).

But stretching the green past the yellow and into the red? That happens all
the time, and I suspect it's the vast majority of what these cameras catch.
People justify it because "oh, it was just a few seconds" or "but it was still
yellow!".

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kolinko
The all-famous „dark-yellow” :)

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empressplay
This is from New Zealand, but if the cameras operate the same in the US then I
think some of the people in this article might not be being completely
truthful...

"For the camera to not be triggered, the vehicle must stop behind the white
stop line, or already be fully in the intersection when the light turns red."

"Two photos are taken. The second one is taken approximately one second after
the first one and proves whether a vehicle continued through the intersection
or just happened to not quite stop before triggering the camera. Police at the
Traffic Camera Office determine whether an offence was committed."

[https://www.driverknowledgetests.com/learners-permit-
questio...](https://www.driverknowledgetests.com/learners-permit-
questions/car/intersections/726-which-statement-is-correct/)

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rayiner
We need more automated traffic enforcement. This is my dream for automated HOV
lane enforcement:
[https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=4lseF6UClbE](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=4lseF6UClbE).
The trap belt would go to a re-education camp.

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booleandilemma
Do people want it to be easier to break the law? I don’t understand.

This reminds me of the commenters defending the would-be car thief on the
Amazon Ring video yesterday.

~~~
bitexploder
In the US you have a right to face your accuser. This is often impossible with
red light cameras.

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rayiner
The Sixth Amendment only provides for a confrontation right in “criminal
prosecutions.” Speeding and red light camera violations are always
administrative citations that carry no criminal penalty.

~~~
bitexploder
That’s wrong in many jurisdictions for speeding issues by an actual officer.
Red light cameras are indeed civil penalties, which is my point. It’s extra
legal and you have zero recourse.

