
Why there are so many online mattress-in-a-box companies - prostoalex
https://www.curbed.com/2018/3/28/17164898/bed-in-a-box-online-mattress-brands-why-so-many
======
alister
The journalist spoke to all these founders and to marketing people, but didn't
ask a fairly obvious question: What makes the mattress market so much weirder
than for other products? Let's compare mattresses to big-screen TVs, which are
also $1000+, infrequently purchased, bulky items:

\- The article says, "If consumers recognize a brand, it creates a situation
where mattress stores are slashing prices to compete with each other." But how
is that different for Samsung or LG TVs?

\- "The number of mattress manufacturers is close to 500," meaning in the US I
presume. Why are there only 19 TV manufacturers that market in the U.S., and
probably not many more in the whole world?

\- Why do mattress manufacturers obfuscate the model numbers so that "every
one of the stores gets a slightly different mattress" making it impossible for
consumers to compare? TVs aren't like that. LG's current lineup seems to be 11
different models for 65-inch TVs and 3 models for 60-inch TVs. It's perfectly
easy to compare LG's prices online vs Best Buy vs other stores.

So why are the mattress and TV markets so different? To take a stab at
answering my own question, I think it's because mattresses are still mostly
made locally in the US since they can't be shipped great distances (like from
China), so they don't benefit from huge economies of scale and cheap labor.
And many of those 500 manufacturers probably serve a niche geographical area,
so they actually have less competition than TVs manufacturers. Hence they can
get away with 300% markup whereas TVs manufacturers operate on tiny margins.
Therefore TVs need to compete on features and price, but mattress
manufacturers have traditionally used high-pressure tactics and obfuscation to
make sales. Anyone have a better explanation?

~~~
pdonis
You can easily test TV brands by going to a store and looking at them. You
can't really test different mattress brands in a store; yes, you can lie on
them, but in my experience at least, that doesn't give a very good prediction
of what sleeping on the mattress long term will be like.

The result is a standard asymmetric information scenario: the seller knows
much more than the customer about the actual quality of the product. And
standard microeconomics tells you that in such a situation, the market will be
dominated by lemons: products that don't have to (and can't) complete on
features and price, and are sold by "high-pressure tactics and obfuscation".

The difference between the mattress market and an idealized market dominated
by asymmetric information in standard microeconomic theory is that most people
aren't willing to take the option that standard economics recommends for such
a situation: don't buy at all. Most people consider a mattress to be a
necessary purchase, not optional, so they have to just do the best they can in
a highly imperfect market. (Similar remarks apply to, e.g., the used car
market: most people who are shopping for a used car are doing it because they
have to--they need a car and can't afford a new one.) Many other possible
markets which would be dominated by asymmetric information if they existed,
simply don't exist, because people can choose not to participate.

~~~
tomerico
Another small observation - the properties you described (asymmetric
information, obfuscation, and a necessary purchase) apply to many parts of the
healthcare market. I wonder whether it means that this market is dominated by
lemons.

~~~
colechristensen
"Lemons" is not so much of the problem in healthcare because of the
(over)prevalence of litigation as a remedy for failures.

I can't sue anybody for a year's salary if I don't like my mattress (I don't).

Instead the market is dominated with inflated prices and mostly harmless
procedures and tests. Sometimes the information isn't asymmetric, it's just
difficult or sometimes just not a habit to try to find the best prices.

Here's an example that blew my mind a while back:

I was helping a friend with limited income afford medication. Generic Prozac,
an extremely common drug.

Here are the current prices at Costco (you'll find the same trend many other
places).

FLUOXETINE HCL 20 MG CAPSULE x100 $17.03

FLUOXETINE HCL 20 MG TABLET x90 $141.09 ($156.77 for 100, the price is listed
for different values)

Look at that, nearly a factor of 10! For the same drug in a gel cap instead of
pressed into a tablet. This isn't cherry picking, you can find the same scale
of differences anywhere. Sometimes a drug will be cheaper in a tablet, other
times a cap.

We had to call the doctor to get a prescription for the capsules, but for
someone on a not-so-far-above-minimum wage job, that was a huge difference.

I only figured this out because I was curious about the difference and wanted
to find out the best price, then I was blown away when I saw the vast
differences in price. Anyone _could_ do the same thing for all of their
prescriptions, but insurance and apathy mean that nobody cares so the market
is extremely inefficient.

~~~
Retric
Regions that spend more money on healthcare have little if any benefit from
that investment.
[http://nationalacademies.org/hmd/~/media/Files/Report%20File...](http://nationalacademies.org/hmd/~/media/Files/Report%20Files/2013/Geographic-
Variation2/geovariation_rb.pdf) ~50% of all medicine prescribed in the US is
useless to harmful. [https://www.huffingtonpost.com/allen-frances/many-
commonly-u...](https://www.huffingtonpost.com/allen-frances/many-commonly-
used-drugs-_b_11287764.html)

So, no US healthcare is very much dominated by Lemons.

PS: Modern medicine delivers most of it's benefit from fairly inexpensive
treatments.

~~~
astura
Not only are half medications useless to harmful, most of the time side
effects aren't ever disclosed. I'm still bitter about this due to being
prescribed medication I would have never had taken if the potential side
effects we're disclosed.

~~~
colechristensen
The pharmacy always gives you papers with all of the side effects,
interactions, and instructions. Is that not good enough?

~~~
astura
Is this a serious comment? Of course it's not good enough.

I'm supposed to wait until after I leave the doctor's office and fill the
prescription to know the side effects of a medication I just spent money on?
So if I don't like the side effects I have to make another doctor's
appointment and wait until the doctor has availability?

So I go to my doctor and say "I have X problem." Doctor says "take these
pills." I go to the pharmacy and read about the medication. I say "well these
side effects don't look good, I don't want to take the medication." I go back
to my doctor, the doctor says "here's some different pills" and I have to fill
that second prescription and compare the two side effects.

No, that's not good enough.

There's also the problem that that information is given in a vacuum, there's
no information given about what the alternative treatments are for your
condition and what the side effects are for those alternative treatments. That
discussion rarely occurs to my satisfaction at the doctor's office because
oftentimes the doctor seemly doesn't know about the side effects or is
misinformed.

This has just been my experience...

For me, the medication in question was given to me in an acute setting. I
asked directly about side effects and I was brushed off as "oh most people
don't have any side effects" or something of that nature. Especially when the
medication is administered by a nurse and I was just given pills, I had to
firstly ask what the medication even was.

~~~
colechristensen
Honestly, you seem like a somewhat difficult patient. If you want to be more
involved in medical decisions, it takes time and effort.

"big issue I have with doctors, I don't know if they are going to prescribe me
some bullshit"

You want a somewhat different relationship with a doctor, it probably is not
going to be very easy if your attitude is like that and you are not
particularly willing to spend time and make effort. Finding the right doctor
for what you want can be difficult, especially when you yourself are
difficult.

I read all of my prescription documentation, and if there is an issue I raise
it with my pharmacist or my doctor. Sometimes I go out and find journal
articles too.

Sounds like you are using the VA, I'd believe you if you said it was time
consuming and the doctors didn't have enough time for you.

------
gregsadetsky
In addition to the article's points, it seems to me that the experience of
dealing with aggressive/manipulative salespeople in a "classic" retail
mattress store cannot be compared to the feeling that I get from most online
stores.

Questions on my budget, spending time to show me the mattresses (and then
making me feel guilty that they spent all of this time on me), etc. Offering
me a "last minute" deal once they saw that I was leaving. It was dreadful.

In this regard, IKEA can be a good compromise on price, selection, and their
employees' relaxed, non-pushy demeanour. You get to try the mattresses and no
one (except other customers) will watch over you.

\---

Contradicting all of my points above, I do want to say that investing in a
Tempur-Pedic was a life changing decision. I definitely spend a more
"rewarding" time sleeping in it.

(((obviously, but just in case someone is wondering, I'm not astroturfing for
IKEA or Tempur. Just a satisfied customer...)))

~~~
katzgrau
I second that. I recently bought a king size tempur, upgrading from my queen
size (which got moved to my spare room). It's not just comfortable - it's next
level. I slept on a Casper at an airbnb for a full month this past summer -
it's not bad but it isn't tempurpedic.

Ps, check my past comments - I am not a shill, just someone who digs
tempurpedic.

~~~
dpark
Ditto. My tempurpedic cost a fairly ridiculous amount. I would pay it again in
a heartbeat if my mattress caught on fire. The best mattress I’ve ever slept
on by a very large margin.

~~~
rconti
These recommendations seem wholly legitimate. Funny thing is, though, the only
person I know well who owned one (my brother-in-law) liked it but said it was
simply too damn hot, which I've since heard others discuss as well. They had
to return theirs, just couldn't live with it. I don't think of a normal
mattress as providing ventilation, but I guess it does, at least somewhat --
less thermal mass, at least.

~~~
SOLAR_FIELDS
This is a problem with memory foam mattresses in general, they trap too much
heat. It's not too bad if you live in a cold climate, but I live in a hot
climate and during the summers it got to be too much.

Gel memory foam is the nice compromise. You get the memory foam but with a gel
topper. It's noticeably cooler and a bit firmer than typical memory foam. We
got one and have since moved the regular memory foam into the guest room.

~~~
wjp3
Mind sharing which brand? Texas here.

~~~
SOLAR_FIELDS
Also Texas.

I got this one[0] from WalMart because I think once you get above $500 for a
mattress you see a cliff of diminishing returns in quality. I’m quite happy
with it.

0: [https://www.walmart.com/ip/Modern-Sleep-Cool-Gel-Memory-
Foam...](https://www.walmart.com/ip/Modern-Sleep-Cool-Gel-Memory-Foam-12-Inch-
Mattress-Multiple-Sizes/41975140)

------
dalbasal
The margins in this industry and its structure are almost an economic paradox.
The dynamic is basically (1) markups are very high (2) manufacturing is a
solved problem and (3) there is lots of competition.

This should resolve to a very competitive market with costs trending to
marginal manufacturing cost. Instead, you have high prices for consumers and
competition for the tremendous sales margins driving a marketing bidding war.
IE consumers pay 400%. 100% is used to make mattresses. 300% is used to market
mattresses.

IMO, this is something like the wine industry. People want a premium product,
but a premium product doesn't exist. So, the market spoofs it with marketing.

~~~
skibble
Slightly off-topic, but if you genuinely think that there's no such thing as
high-end wine, I feel a little sorry for you. Surely you can tell the
difference between the Budweiser/Calsberg-type beer and beer from an
independent brewery? If so, then surely you can imagine the same might be true
of wine? I get that the fact that some bottles cost thousands may offend some
people's sensibilities, but this hardly covers the wine mainstream and is
usually down to intangibles that go beyond the wine itself, just like a piece
of art.

It's certainly the case, of course, that while there's a big gap between a $10
and a $50 bottle of wine, naturally the gains for price points above that get
incremental pretty quickly in much the same manner as TVs — is a TV that costs
$9,000 over four times as good as a $2,000 model?

Wine experts often stumble on double-blind tests, sure, but then again, so do
audiophiles trying to differentiate lossy and lossless audio.

~~~
dalbasal
I feel a similar way about micro-brews. It's good because people think it's
good. They think it is good because of cultural/narrative reasons. It's not
good for any underlying or objective reason. If Budweiser made a beer that
tasted like micro-brew, the connoisseurs would be drinking a micro-brew that
tastes like budweiser.

Don't feel bad for me though :) Being a philistine is not life-threatening.

Wine is a good example because it's proven to be nonsense. Neither experts nor
consumers can rank wines for taste in either a consistent way or a way that
corresponds to price. Prices & blind test preferences are random. OTOH, people
demonstrably prefer expensive wine when they know it's expensive.

This comes back to my earlier point, it's not all economics. Human beings are
complicated. In these cases, some of us want to pay a premium for a premium
product. There is no such thing, so the market spoofs it.

~~~
jccalhoun
>It's good because people think it's good. They think it is good because of
cultural/narrative reasons. It's not good for any underlying or objective
reason.

I just want to point out that this is true of basically all food, drink, and
art.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Distinction_(book)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Distinction_\(book\))

~~~
dalbasal
At some level, value is a matter of taste. I agree.

Is this $900 phone better than this $200 phone, or two $200 phones? IDK, but
at least they are different. The question is not (IMO) about absolute
rationality, but having enough rationality to drive a market. Wine & mattress
markets don't have it. You can't offer a near identical wine or mattress
cheaper than market price and expect it to disrupt the market, forcing
competitive price-cutting.

------
joshvm
Somewhat ironic that the article comments about MemoryFoamTalk not disclosing
comissions from Nectar and then provides an (undisclosed) affiliate link.

I have a Leesa as it was the only mattress (at the time) which fit my bed
properly. The fact that all these companies can offer 100-365 day trials does
hint at how stupidly large the margins are.

~~~
DennisP
How do you like your Leesa?

~~~
fein
Not a Leesa but I have 3 Brooklyn Bedding mattresses.

I don't have a critique from any sort of experience aside from that I sleep
well and its comfortable.

I have the soft king size for the bedroom, and 2x full size mediums for the
guest beds.

My wife stole the free giant shredded foam pillow. I probably couldn't take it
from her if I tried.

~~~
eropple
I will ride and/or die with Xtreme Comforts' shredded foam pillows. They're
like fifty bucks, a little more for a bigger one. My girlfriend hates them--
which is fine, because it means _I get two_. The bed's going to look funny
when we move in together: two enormous pillows on my side, two puny flat ones
on hers.

[https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00V909F1K](https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00V909F1K)

~~~
fein
Heh I have the "as seen on TV" bamboo pillow as well that I bought on some
insane sale somewhere. i think it was $12 ish for the pillow.

I like it quite a bit. When I was getting shipped around on a plane every week
for work, the hotel super soft pillows really didn't stack up. You get used to
having something that fully molds to your head.

------
wonder_bread
Seems like part of what this article is discussing is the emerging 'Shopify
effect'. The barriers to entry for starting an online brand-based business
have plummetted to the point where even people with little means financially
and no means technically can still set up a business for a fraction of what it
cost in the 20th century. I wouldn't be surprised if we're in the middle of a
Cambrian explosion-esque period for consumer-based brands.

~~~
labster
And yet, for living species, it looks a lot more like the K-T boundary
extinction event. At least we created a lot of shareholder value.

~~~
dx034
Many of those shops won't make much profit. Shipping companies are probably
the only ones profiting (if not shipped via national mail services). Most of
the value will flow to the customer as prices are now much lower.

------
nextos
I own a Hästens bed, which is supposedly among the best box springs (with a
horsehair topper) you can buy. I also own a latex mattress from IKEA, made by
a really famous latex manufacturer, which has been discontinued to sell
inferior options.

These are good, but in my case they couldn't beat a setup that is an order of
magnitude cheaper, simpler and better. A simple custom-made japanese
shikibuton, filled with felted wool panels and a buckwheat pillow. I put this
on a modular set of bed slates to avoid insects, get better airing and avoid
cold floors.

I treated a few years of my life as an experiment to improve my sleep. I
bought a Hästens and that latex IKEA mattress. I used them for 3 years,
switching back and forth every 6 months. Then I made this custom shikibuton,
and after a few months I never looked back.

There is some literature which explains how we evolved sleeping in relatively
firm setups. Big, expensive and mushy mattresses tend to be a bit too soft and
you end up developing neck aches as I did. A better option is just some
slightly flexible wood base, or a tatami, and some thin cushion. In fact,
another less unconventional setup I like is a horsehair topper, like one of
those from Hästens, on top of some wooden base.

My shikibuton is really cheap. It's washable! I can open my futon, put felted
wool panels in the washing machine and it's dry in a day. It's very
comfortable. It's ended up my perennial neck issues. It's convenient, I can
transport the whole system in my tiny car.

A simpler, non-washable alternative is to have a big cover filled up with
buckwheat hulls. Every 6 months, compost hulls, buy new ones, and wash cover.
Every month, empty hulls into a bag and wash cover.

I don't understand why this alternative is not more popular in the West.

~~~
setr
>A simple custom-made japanese shikibuton, filled with felted wool panels and
a buckwheat pillow. I put this on a modular set of bed slates to avoid
insects, get better airing and avoid cold floors

Can you explain your "bed slates" further? All I want is a simple raised
wooden platform, and they're absurdly expensive. Bed frames in general seem
like a totally messes up market; Ikea's fucking slats could drive a man to
murder, and anything else is overpriced or cheap and overdesigned

At some point im going to be forced to build the damn thing myself if the
market is going to refuse to sell anything sensible

~~~
bobwaycott
> _At some point im going to be forced to build the damn thing myself if the
> market is going to refuse to sell anything sensible._

Why wait? If all you want is a simple platform, you couldn’t beat the price of
buying and cutting some wood yourself.

~~~
setr
Im lazy, don't actually know what I'm doing, and the whole thing seems like a
lot of trouble to setup (don't have a decent way to move the wood, or
convenient/immediate access to tooling, etc).

I'll beat the price at the cost of time and effort (and probably some favors),
and I'm not sure carpentry interests me enough for the learning to have much
value. So its a last resort, if I can find nothing decent, and decently
priced.

~~~
bobwaycott
You might be surprised at how fun and rewarding it is to make some simple
things by cutting wood. Just in case you can't find what you're looking for on
the market, a few ideas:

A. Put a listing on Craigslist asking someone to build you a simple platform.
Say that you'll pay for the materials, and get them to quote a price for the
labor. Maybe ask them to deliver it, as well.

2\. Find a local maker space. They likely have the tools you'd need. You can
rent a pickup truck from a local U-Haul or Home Depot usually. Cutting wood is
pretty much the easiest thing you could learn to do in an afternoon. Find out
the dimensions of your desired mattress, and for a platform bed, you'll be
pretty okay if you play it safe and make your platform 4 inches wider & longer
than your mattress (2in on each side of the mattress). Pick up some plywood to
go over the frame if you don't want to cut 20 slats--you could, say, make a
frame out of just 8 boards, and then screw plywood to the top of it. For the
legs, you don't need anything other than, say, a 4" high simple wooden
furniture leg[0] to bolt to the platform itself. Then you just bolt/screw it
all together.

D. If you _really_ don't want to spend an afternoon of your life cutting some
wood, buy a decent boxspring with a wooden frame, then go to Home Depot and
pick up 5 or 6 4x4 plain wooden furniture legs[0]. Simply drill a hole for
each leg into each of the corners of the boxspring, and add the extra 1 or 2
legs in the middle of the boxspring for centered support (1 if your bed is
queen or smaller; 2 if it's a king). Screw the furniture legs into the
included tee nut that you hammer into the drilled hole. It won't make much of
a mess, and you can have it done in 1 hour. Drilling 5-6 holes is about the
only thing simpler than spending an afternoon cutting wood & bolting it
together. I did exactly this for my boys' beds, and they even had a blast
helping.

[0]: [https://www.homedepot.com/p/American-Pro-
Decor-4-in-x-4-in-U...](https://www.homedepot.com/p/American-Pro-
Decor-4-in-x-4-in-Unfinished-Solid-Hardwood-Square-Bun-
Foot-5APD10700/300438021)

------
calvinbhai
Surprising that an article about mattress in a box companies can be written
without mentioning T&N.

Tuft & Needle probably was the first one to come out with this concept, and
probably is still the best priced one. I have two T&N queen mattresses for
more than 4 yrs. Been very happy with these in terms of comfort and
durability. Never going back to any of the 4S mattresses.

No reason for me to try other mattress in a box brands, because they are way
more expensive and dont seem to be any more comfortable than T&N.

Best thing about mattress in a box, is that if I have to move to an another
place, I sell my current mattress and get a new one where I move. One less
thing to carry while moving!

~~~
curun1r
> Tuft & Needle probably was the first one to come out with this concept

Nope. That was Nest. Or, at least, Nest came out with it a year before T&N.
But they also failed to get a mention in the article.

~~~
calvinbhai
Good to know. Surprised that I never heard of nest before. Their mattresses
look like conventional ones. Would love to know how it compares with T&N,
since nest has a few that are priced better ran T&N.

------
truculation
Mattress-packing via machine pix:

[https://twitter.com/machinepix/status/965691925712875521](https://twitter.com/machinepix/status/965691925712875521)

Instead of merely airing the bed each morning I run a dehumidifer. Hopefully
this will reduce mould & mites. Now HN can tell me why my personal mattress
hack is a bad idea.

~~~
analog31
At last I have an excuse for not making the bed in the morning. ;-)

When my kids were tots and we took them to day care, the day care center had a
collection of little beds for naps, which were some kind of durable fabric
mesh stretched over a frame. I've often wondered how that would work as a
general purpose mattress for adults, with little chance of festering over
time.

~~~
mc32
You mean something like army cots[1]?

[1][http://armynavysuperstores.com/cots.htm](http://armynavysuperstores.com/cots.htm)

~~~
st26
(Plenty functional, not that comfortable)

------
iambateman
We bought a Tuft and Needle mattress three years ago, and it's been fantastic.
A few other friends have bought mattresses online and all been very happy.

If it's all a marketing ploy, as the article implies, then there's a lot of
happy people benefiting. ;)

~~~
shimon
Of course it's a marketing ploy! Mattresses are a great example of an area
where the marketing ploys are really an inescapable part of the perception of
value. If you think you're buying a great, innovative mattress design, you'll
probably continue to believe that unless it's quite bad.

They've just switched us from feeling like we can pick the right mattress
through trying a dozen in a store to reading online reviews. Both are biased,
but everyone needs some way to feel confident about a big purchase.

~~~
brownbat
We were certain we had split opinions on a softer and a firmer mattress in the
store. We bought one for the master and one for the guest room just in case we
changed our minds.

I think we switched them at least once, but honestly can't remember how many
times, and can no longer tell which one I "really" like.

Through this process I learned... I don't actually have mattress preferences,
short of it not being a bunch of rocks.

I'm sure some people actually have preferences, but I wonder if this is an
area, like vodka, where you can make people feel strongly like they have
preferences between two things that are barely distinct, if at all.

[https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2018/02/23/588346329/epis...](https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2018/02/23/588346329/episode-826-the-
vodka-proof)

------
wheels
As an American that moved to Europe before I was old enough to ever buy an
expensive mattress, what Americans spend on mattresses is always incredibly
baffling.

New, king sized (1.8 x 2.0 m), mattresses go for €200-1500 (about $250-1800)
in Germany, with prices gravitating towards the lower end of the spectrum.
Americans use much springier mattresses (box springs are unheard of here, and
foam mattresses are standard), but I'm incredibly skeptical that quality of
sleep is systemically worse. The whole thing has the feeling of a ginormous
scam / rent-seeking.

~~~
dboreham
If this is interesting look at how often Americans think they have to change
the oil in their vehicles. Even if said oil is synthetic.

~~~
st26
"think"? The manufacturer _specifies_ the interval, and you best follow it if
you'd like your warranty honored.

~~~
dboreham
Curious, have you actually read their specification? I ask because it is oven
much longer than people think. The cars are configured to "warn" you that the
oil needs to be changed, but the miles to change is a soft configuration that
is under-provisioned (presumably due to $$ made by people selling you oil you
don't need). You can ask the oil changing people (or do it yourself if
sufficiently motivated) to change the interval.

~~~
st26
My old Tacoma was 5k. My Subaru is 6k. Does that answer your question?

------
batbomb
I bought a Tuft and Needle after this post in 2013:

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6900625](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6900625)

I’m pretty sure that at the time, Tuft and Needle was the main name in the
game, and I definitely hadn’t heard of Casper at that point, so there seems to
be a bit of revisionist history attributing the rise of these mattresses to
Casper? I don’t know.

I’m still happy with my T&N.

~~~
Afforess
Revisionist is putting it lightly. Casper sued the largest online mattress
review site after it refused to favor its brands, and forced it to sell
itself. The entire saga has more twists than a G.R.R. Martin novel.
[https://www.fastcompany.com/3065928/sleepopolis-casper-
blogg...](https://www.fastcompany.com/3065928/sleepopolis-casper-bloggers-
lawsuits-underside-of-the-mattress-wars)

------
abakker
Maybe I'm wrong, but I always assumed that the quality and convenience were
secondary to the big factor for me: a cheap, disposable mattress that is NOT a
10 year investment is nicer for people who rent/move. If I have to
donate/throw away my mattress in 2 years because I am moving across the
country, into a new room that doesn't have the space, or just because I've
decided I don't like it, I now can.

The inflection is taking something that used to be branded as a long term
investment, and making it into something that doesn't have to be. Consumers
seem to be reacting well to this change since there are many benefits.
Everything else seems to be standard piling into a new market when there is
obvious demand.

------
dgreensp
Remember how the movies Armageddon and Deep Impact both came out in the same
year? (Apparently it was 1998.) It was so weird to have a choice of two bad
asteroid movies, which wasn’t exactly a common trope at the time.

I got a similar feeling when a company advertised in my Facebook feed that it
had “reinvented belts,” and then a different company advertised more or less
the same thing a few weeks later! Same with pills designed to boost your brain
power. One week you are being pitched by brand X, the next by brand Y, and
each one gives the impression that someone passionate about belts, or
neuroscience, or whatever, poured their blood, sweat, and tears into this
revolutionary new product.

Edit: I actually bought a “reinvented” belt, and I love it. I wonder if modern
marketing, i.e. Facebook, makes it possible to “reinvent” mundane objects and
make a buck, maybe the way it used to be before products became more
commoditized and distributed by big corporations.

~~~
casefields
That's called a Twin Film in show business and had been happening for a long
time.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twin_films](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twin_films)

~~~
antisthenes
They're A/B testing the audience!

------
konceptz
This made me think of the article a while back about the mattress blogger who
got sued.

[https://www.fastcompany.com/3065928/sleepopolis-casper-
blogg...](https://www.fastcompany.com/3065928/sleepopolis-casper-bloggers-
lawsuits-underside-of-the-mattress-wars)

~~~
thepumpkin1979
Thank you, that was such a good read. So Casper won, does it make you hate
them? I tend to dislike the winner when I read stories like this.

~~~
conradfr
The guy kind of got bullied to sell his website but is a millionaire and in
the end it seems nobody is very ethical in the field.

What's funny is that people get rich reviewing mattress online and we
developers still debate inheritance vs composition like it will make or break
a business ;)

~~~
yjftsjthsd-h
Being a millionaire is not unethical, bullying is. Did he _actually_ do
something wrong?

------
Gustomaximus
One of the great things about online mattresses is having reviews. The
traditional store all had unique names/codes for their mattresses so you can't
compare price or get any reasonable volume of reviews for a mattress. I love
how the internet levels the playing field on things like this.

~~~
smt88
Most online mattress reviews are part of affiliate programs and aren't
trustworthy. It's also impossible to review something so personal.

For example, someone else in these comments loves their floor futon, but I
loathe mine.

------
ironjunkie
As far as I'm concerned, that whole market still needs some newcomers (also
called "disruption").

this whole mattress in a box segment is essentially 70% marketing and 30%
RD//Production//Shipping. Those companies price around 1000$ for a mattress,
but I highly doubt the production (and shipping) is anything more than 150$.

I'm happy there is an alternative to the older shaddy company that cornered
that market (sleeptrain and all of those), but it's still too much marketing,
too little value for a fairly simple product!

(I have a Leesa and it's a mattress... It's ok).

------
lobster_johnson
I bought my foam mattress from Dixie [1]. It's the Dream Bed Deluxe model,
which was about $550, which seems right for a foam mattress (it's still
probably 2x markup, but less than what Casper etc. are charging), with free
delivery in NYC. Unlike most brands, Dixie makes their own mattresses, and
they're made in the US. I love the mattress.

[1] [https://dixiefoam.com/collections](https://dixiefoam.com/collections)

------
ProfessorLayton
Cheap memory foam toppers have effectively made the quality of the mattress
irrelevant to me. I've been sleeping great on a compressed Ikea mattress with
a foam topper. In fact the entire bed setup was boxed up and taken to my home
in a car. I've spent the night at really nice guest rooms/hotels, and I don't
prefer them over my setup.

I would much rather re-buy my setup again every time I move, than spend a ton
of money on a "proper" mattress and deal with moving it/dealing with movers —
for now, at least.

~~~
starpilot
I did something similar in college. Bought an airbed and memory foam topper
both from Amazon, transported them inside my Honda when I had to move out of
state for internships. It was damn comfortable. Now I have a Tuft & Needle.

------
47
"Since Casper launched its “mattress in a box” concept in 2014, digital-savvy
entrepreneurs have been launching new mattress brands online seemingly every
week."

Casper was not the first mattress in a box online company. But Casper
definitely is the first company to get the marketing right.

~~~
DiabloD3
I think it would be fair to say they Apple'd it.

Given how they sued people who gave bad reviews to their products, I think
that is more than enough reason to never buy from them, especially sight
unseen.

------
jameswyse
I was looking at an Ecosa Sleep ad on facebook a few months ago and considered
purchasing one of their mattresses, until I read some of their comments.

They claim their mattresses are better because of reduced EMF radiation
(compared to traditional mattresses with springs) and when i called them out
on their pseudo-science bs I got a nasty reply telling me I was wrong and to
do some research!

------
analog31
I don't know if this has any impact, but thinking about it, a mattress is a
possession that can't be easily transported in a car, or even, by someone who
doesn't have a car. I imagine that as people become more mobile and choose to
have fewer possessions, it might be easier to simply abandon their mattress
and have a new one shipped to their new location.

~~~
ropeadopepope
I used to buy foam Ikea mattresses specifically because they compress and roll
up well. That allowed me to move from place to place with a normal car.

~~~
meesterdude
I have such a bed. Getting it home was easy. But how do you actually compress
it and roll it again? It's kinda become huge. What do you do?

~~~
jacquesm
Vacuum. Thick plastic wrap and then hook up a vacuum pump to the interior and
watch the atmosphere do the heavy work for you. Then you can roll up the
package.

~~~
meesterdude
ingenious! Here I was looking at steamroller rentals.

~~~
jacquesm
If you look at the video linked elsewhere you'll see they use a giant press to
compress the mattress between two sheets of foil and then they heat seal the
ends. After releasing the press it all stays nicely flat because of the same
reason: there is no air in the mattress and no way for air to get into the
mattress.

I figure they do it that way because it is much faster than just letting the
vacuum do the work which for a production facility is a must. But when you
have a small budget and more time then using the vacuum directly is the best
way to go.

There is an interesting branch of manufacturing related to this trick:

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vacuum_forming](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vacuum_forming)

------
sumedh
I was in the market for a mattress, went to a big store which exclusively
sells mattress, tried a 4000 AUD mattress and 1000 AUD mattress, they felt the
same.

Finally went to Ikea and tried a 200 AUD mattress, that felt good too so got
that.

All the mattress were medium firm and I could not figure out any difference
with all three of them with the 20 second demo.

------
matte_black
DIY mattresses will be the next big thing, and will disrupt the industry. A
mattress you can tune as you build it to give you the exact feel you’re going
for. You could even have a different feel for both sides of the bed. And for
way cheaper. We’re working on it.

~~~
andrewflnr
You can almost do this now with mattress toppers.

~~~
matte_black
Almost

------
ropeadopepope
Reminds me of something called "Made for Outlet." Popular brands license their
logos to third parties who make low quality goods. It has the label and the
store has the name, but it's cheap junk worth a fraction of the price they're
selling it for.

~~~
deelowe
With globalization things are getting really weird in the retail space. For
example, snap-on (a super premium tool maker) used to make wrenches for Lowes.
They were nearly identical: [http://www.snapon-
bluepoint.com.sg/](http://www.snapon-bluepoint.com.sg/)

Just a few days ago, AVE did a few videos showing evidence that there may be a
single supplier for some new airguns that are on the market. Thing is, these
air guns range in price from less than $100 (harbor freight) to well over $500
(premium brand). He tested a Husky brand that was much more expensive than the
HF one and found it to likely be worse than the cheap one. He had a good
theory in the video that no one can beat manufacturing overseas now days for
quality or price. So everyone just outsources it and is hoping no one notices.

~~~
evjim
I was just checking out the harbor freight air nailers. The main concern I had
was for the triggers, the plastic seemed really thin and poorly connected.
I'll have to check out this video

~~~
deelowe
This is just for this specific impact wrench. HF quality can vary a lot, but
where as it used to be just crap and worse crap, there are a few very specific
instances now where they actually have some gems. This impact wrench appears
to be one minus some very slight concerns.

------
kodablah
Answer to title is the same answer to the question, "Why there are so many
mattress stores"... profit margin.

~~~
SlowRobotAhead
Right.

And once someone figured out that you can roll and vacuum seal a mattress and
ship UPS - lots of online stores.

Writing this while laying on an Avacado latex mattress.... HATED every second
of mattress store nonsense... oh you’re having a sale just today!? My goodness
how lucky! :/

------
devonkim
Somewhat related but this article from a while back had some observations on
how mattresses are a marketer’s dream to sell. The really shady nature of
these companies in protecting their brand even at the online review level does
not inspire confidence and trustworthiness.

[https://www.fastcompany.com/3065928/sleepopolis-casper-
blogg...](https://www.fastcompany.com/3065928/sleepopolis-casper-bloggers-
lawsuits-underside-of-the-mattress-wars)

------
woodpanel
On a side note: Since their marketing is superb, it doesn't surprise me that
even the article takes Casper's claim at face value - but it wasn't Casper who
invented this business-model in 2014.

I don't know for other countries, but German startup Bett1 was started in
2004. It became famous in Germany for uncovering the "mattress mafia", a
cartell formed by producers and retailers that ensured their ridiculous high
earnings stayed in place, eventually leading to criminal investigations by the
authorities.

------
bnycum
We are probably not far from needing a new mattress ourselves and I’ve been
looking at all these companies. Minus Purple, most of them seem fairly similar
within a degrees of each other.

Has anyone who wasn’t a fan of memory foam mattresses been swayed by any of
these companies? We live in the south and haven’t liked the few we’ve tried
for them sleeping hot and general feel. Kind of wish I could try before I buy.

~~~
hanklazard
I bought a Casper about a year ago after having a standard spring mattress for
10 years prior. I’ve found it very comfortable from day one. I also tend to
sleep hot and so was concerned about reports of memory foaming feeling warmer
... hasn’t been an issue for me. I’ve had guests on it as well and people my
age and size (late 30’s, average build) seem to find it comfortable.

To be clear: I’m sure I could find a nicer mattress, but this was easy and
represents a good value.

------
itakedrugs
Probably because foam mattresses cost next to nothing to make... (and also
because foam mattresses are better then spring mattresses)

------
nfoz
I thought I loved the idea of a solid-chunk-of-memory-foam mattress. But now
I've identified that it's causing me serious back/neck problems; maybe it just
doesn't suit my body-type or something. I'm looking to replace it with a
decent firm spring mattress. But it sure was easier to shop for mattress-in-a-
box.

------
matttemporary
Shameless self promotion:

If you are doing or are interested in a _personalized_ mattress
business/start-up, please drop me a line: matress.20.j4848@spamgourmet.com

We are looking for collaboration partners. (We are a technology start-up, not
a mattress company.)

------
shanghaiaway
An evolved form of drop shipping.

------
chrismartin
Surprised that nobody has mentioned Zinus, which sells similar stuff but for
(relatively) dirt cheap via Amazon, Walmart, etc. A year ago, I paid under
$200 for a full size foam mattress, very comfortable for my partner and I.

~~~
coldcode
I have two now, best mattress I've ever owned, and several coworkers have them
now too. Yet I am sure they are all made in the same factory as the rest in
China. Zinus has expanded into related products like frames as well so I am
sure its mostly marketing over manufacturing in China. Yet I've know people
who spent $4000 on a Tempur-Pedic and didn't like it much. I'd rather spend
$200 and not like it than $4000. At least with things sold on Amazon you can
read 1000's of reviews which are unlikely to be all fake which at least gives
you an idea of what people think, unlike buying a mattress in a store where
the only opinion you get is the salesperson's.

------
dmh2000
Its probable that any 'review' site that only does reviews and doesn't have
any real content behind it, has some financial relationship with some of what
they review. Its a common business model.

------
dmh2000
There's a commercial on the radio here for an online mattress vendor, where
they call out 'The walk of shame' you have when you leave a mattress store.
Its hilarious and so true.

------
Waterluvian
So stupid question. Are mattresses in a box actually viable? What changed in
recent years that make it work? I assumed you'd just end up with a mattress
with messed up springs.

~~~
ThrustVectoring
The mattresses are memory foam and/or latex and don't have springs in them.

~~~
SlowRobotAhead
My latex does have springs (avacado) and was still vacuum sealed.

If your distribution model has always been freight no need to try anything
else - then someone came along and did something else.

------
tylergetsay
So whats the best one? Or are they all the same? Whenever I see high margins I
immediately start looking for how to buy directly from the source

------
kbos87
Buying a mattress sight unseen is the tail wagging the dog. It’s convenient
for ecommerce retailers, so they’ve lulled us all into a collective insanity
that a one size fits all approach where you have a bed that you’ve never
touched delivered to your house is somehow a good idea. The novelty of beds in
a box will eventually wear off for most people.

------
source99
And why are there so many mattress commercials on radio?

~~~
shimon
It's a rare purchase with high profit margins and limited differentiation
between brands. In other words, whatever store/vendor you go to first has a
great shot at getting your business, and you'll totally forget about them by
the time you next need a mattress years later.

Same reason you hear so many car dealership and insurance ads.

------
jaggederest
TL;DR for the article: Huge margins and outsourced manufacturing and
logistics.

------
wemdyjreichert
Online matress-in-a-box = business e-commerce equivalent of a lemonade stand.

------
jijji
you can find mattresses all day long for $50-$75 on craigslist, i dont know
what these people are talking about paying $1,000 for a mattress.

~~~
bsg75
[https://www.livescience.com/33097-does-your-mattress-
really-...](https://www.livescience.com/33097-does-your-mattress-really-gain-
weight-over-time-.html)

"According to materials published by Ohio State University, a typical used
mattress may have 100,000 to 10 million mites inside. Ten percent of the
weight of a two-year-old pillow can be composed of dead mites and their
droppings. Mites prefer warm, moist surroundings such as the inside of a
mattress when someone is on it. One of their favorite foods is dead skin, and
people shed about one fifth of an ounce of the stuff every week, some of which
surely ends up flaking into your mattress."

