

Quiet Linear Mechanical Keyboard Switch Designed by the Open Steno Project - robertfw
https://www.crowdsupply.com/open-steno-project/mechanical-keyboard-switch

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busterarm
So it's an ALPS/Matias switch. Of which there already exist quiet versions.

Why do you want money again?

The claim that it's easier to get Custom Key Caps for these is an absolute
joke. There is very little available in the market for Alps style keycaps vs
Cherry MX which is ubiquitous. Injection molding shops would have to have
tooling available to make these keycaps. Most of them don't. That's what makes
getting custom keys easy or hard, not the mounting shape. I don't even think
you can get them in PBT anymore unless you pop them off an SGI Granite
keyboard or older Apple keyboards (or with a Japanese layout).

Cherry MX Reds are also not out of wide circulation at all. Reds and Browns
are their most popular switch right now! These comparisons are totally
disingenuous.

Not to mention Matias switches are super wobbly...Have fun doing those sticker
mods.

~~~
ChuckMcM
This and the other Cherry comment capture my cynicism as well.

And the _reason_ I'm cynical about it is that they story they offer doesn't
seem to make sense to anyone who has purchased key switches for projects.

So lets break it down. $50 donation gets you 150 switches, they are looking to
raise $1000. That is twenty $50 chunks, or 3,000 switches. So what they are
really saying is that our vendor has a minimum order quantity (MOQ) of 3,000
switches, and if you all buy some, together we'll get switches and you'll get
switches. That at least would be an honest narrative. And hey its helping the
Open Steno project so its got that going for it.

~~~
howardbeware
The economics of this project aren't based on funding the entire MOQ, which is
much more than 3,000 switches. We'll be using many of the switches for our own
project, but think there will be plenty left over. The $1,000 funding goal is
the amount that makes it worth going through the effort to sort, package,
ship, and other logistics. I'll make this clearer on the campaign page. Thanks
for the feedback!

~~~
ChuckMcM
That is awesome Howard. If I had a use for 150 switches I would certainly
consider contributing. Something else you might add to this page which may
help would be an STL file that could be 3D printed for a keycap. Looking at
what is provided I don't think there is quite enough information to make one
and you would definitely want to test fit it for validation before releasing
something like that but it would give folks most everything they needed for
building a custom keyboard.

~~~
howardbeware
We plan releasing the source files for all custom hardware, including key
caps, that we're designing and making for our own keyboard. We have prototypes
that we're mostly happy with, but haven't yet nailed down the exact
dimensions. Also, our files are in the form that a CNC mill could understand,
but as far as I know not suitable yet for a 3D printer. I really like that
idea, though, and will keep it in mind for when we do offer our keyboard.

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leetrout
I just picked received the CODE Keyboard with the green switches yesterday and
while I was swapping some caps I wondered why they didn't just make the
housing clear for the backlighting. This looks cool!

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pdknsk
Cherry does have clear housing.

[http://www.cherry.de/cid/keymodules_CHERRY_MX1A-LxxA_B.htm](http://www.cherry.de/cid/keymodules_CHERRY_MX1A-LxxA_B.htm)

And the following claim seems a bit dubious to me.

> The other contact, pictured above, is gold-plated only on the small area
> that will actually physically touch the other contact. The reason for this
> is simply that the process of gold plating weakens the metal being plated,
> which would reduce the longevity of the key switch.

~~~
busterarm
I'm almost certain they originally wanted Cherry Reds for this project but
couldn't get their order qty filled by Cherry either due to lack of
availability (they're very popular right now) or there being a high MOQ
(Cherry's MOQs are super-duper high).

If they were really serious about ultra-low activation force, Topre has 30g
switches available (not that they could have negotiated that contract), but
that's unusably low, IMO.

The project may be "open" but they've gone with a key type that's only still
supported by one manufacturer...

~~~
howardbeware
We evaluated Cherry Reds for the project, but there were several things wrong
with them. In order of our priorities:

1\. It's very difficult/expensive to make custom key caps that mount to Cherry
MX stems. By custom key cap, I mean a completely new shape, like this:

[http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-g_Bi0FseNUk/VGBKMdshu-I/AAAAAAAAAe...](http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-g_Bi0FseNUk/VGBKMdshu-I/AAAAAAAAAeg/i2PoOoql6zU/s1600/cnc-
keys-complete.jpg)

We actually did come up with a method for doing this with Cherry MX switches,
but the cost was prohibitive. I'll add more detail on the campaign page to
make this clear.

2\. The actuation force of Cherry MX Reds was just a bit too high. We're
making a stenotype keyboard, which should have a very light touch. The Cherry
MX Red might have been marginally acceptable, but we're much happier with the
lower actuation force of our switch.

3\. As you pointed out, the availability of Cherry MX Reds isn't great.

4\. The price of Cherry MX Reds is much higher.

Regarding the Topre switches, I agree that 30g is almost too low. Also, the
mounting post for the Topre switches seemed challenging from the perspective
of creating custom key caps, though we didn't actually try.

As for the openness of the project and there being only one manufacturer, is
your concern about availability, control of the IP, or something else?

~~~
busterarm
Okay. Interesting response here. There's some points I hadn't considered.

1\. I see your argument here but I also wonder if there are processes that you
have not considered. I don't know if you're familiar with ClickClack's
keycaps, but that's an artist who does custom shaped keys. I'm 99% positive,
as I've done the same process myself, that he sculpts a master, makes a mould
and pours resin keycaps. You can make these in huge bulks quickly for cheap
this way. Getting the Cherry MX backing is as simple as cutting the stem off a
key and gluing it to your top. It makes choices of plastics/resin more
difficult (you can't just mix and pour PBT...) but this process is super
cheap. Cheaper than 3d printing and cheaper than machining. You can build a
vacuum degasser for $50 + an air compressor.

2\. Cherry switches can be spring modded to much lower actuation forces. There
are places where you can buy 30g-45g switches, in bulk, and it's probably
cheaper than tooling them yourself. I honestly can't imagine using less than
45g and maintaining accuracy, especially on something that's basically close
to being a chording keyboard like the Stenotype (but then again, I'm not a
steno).

4\. I guess it doesn't matter for your use case because you have to make your
own keycaps, but for someone who will be using the switches for something else
this is not true. Regular keycaps for ALPS switches are either going to be
substantially more expensive or someone trying to dump old/excess stock. I
don't even know where you could get ALPS keycaps made in a group buy -- people
have tried. The campaign page is advertising advantages that really don't
exist outside of your specific use case.

That's really my only gripe. I don't see where there would be a use case
outside of your specific project. I know folks sitting on huge bulks of ALPS
switches that are sitting doing nothing because usually nobody wants them.
Forgive my myopia.

Alps is an interesting choice for your project, especially since you don't
have to worry about stabilizers at all.

~~~
howardbeware
1\. The problem wasn't in creating the shape we wanted - that's easy with CNC.
The problem was creating the cross mounting post for Cherry. The process that
ended up working was somewhat as you suggested: we basically used a lathe to
remove material from a standard key cap until just the post was left and then
we attached the post with a good adhesive to our custom key caps. The problem
with this process is that it is very expensive in terms of labor/time and
requires a high degree of precision to ensure uniformity. I think I might
eventually make a keyboard using Cherry MX switches using this process, but
for the current project the goal is to produce at least 100 keyboards while
keeping the cost down. We tried for several months to make the Cherry MX Red
work, but ended up deciding Matias was the better option in this case.

2\. Modding key switches works well for a single keyboard, but really causes
costs to soar if used in production. This wouldn't work for us because one of
the main design points of the keyboard we're working on is making it
financially accessible to a wide range of people.

4\. This is a fair point. Honestly, I'm not too deep into the mechanical
keyboard world beyond this one project, so I don't have a good feeling for
other people's use cases. My hope, though, is that people do some really
strange things with these switches and start innovating in ways I wouldn't
have thought of.

Thanks for all your feedback - it's been really helpful. I haven't yet updated
the campaign page to reflect it all, but I will soon.

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worklogin
I've owned a Cherry MX Red keyboard for a few years, and while I like the
keyboard itself, I wish I had browns. The tactile feedback of a keypress is
really needed for error-resistant typing.

~~~
ashmud
For me, the tactile feedback is what allows me to not bottom out when typing.
I feel like a can allow myself to type more lightly on browns than reds.

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TrainedMonkey
For $50 you can get a bag of 150 keys. That comes out to $0.33 cents per
switch which is really close to their estimated unit price without shipping of
$0.30.

~~~
busterarm
Because of the low popularity of ALPS keycaps, the cost and MOQ of the caps
themselves are significantly higher.

This is the more expensive way to go.

~~~
howardbeware
Since we're manufacturing the key caps ourselves, it's actually a much cheaper
way to go for us.

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rl3
This seems like it might be useful in defending against acoustic side-channel
attacks.

