

Ask YC: Office space - cheap or creative? - mchang16

I am in the process of looking for an office space to move my business so that I can hire some employees. I've looked at a number of spaces, and it seems that the ones that I like (the creative, interesting spaces) are expensive. The boring, plain and uninteresting spaces are more in my budget.<p>My issue is that I want to get one of the creative interesting spaces, and I'm trying to figure out if it's worth the extra cash. My company is currently making $ but it's all in consulting fees that could evaporate at any time. I still have cash from an angel investment,and I'm hoping to start making money from my core business in a few months. (Hoping)<p>Any advice?
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LostInTheWoods
Every space (office or home) has an impact on those who occupy it. The top
things to consider when choosing a space for a small starting company:
collaboration, privacy, lighting, noise.

collaboration - depending on your type of business, choose a space that either
promotes or discourages collaboration.

privacy - choose a space that lets your employees have a sense of privacy. Its
not fun having the boss being able to see you all day long.

lighting - beware of bad lighting, from overpowering flourecents to blinding
sunlight.

noise - internal (ie, deafening air conditioning) to external (ie, youre
located next to a railroad crossing)

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aditya
re: privacy - I've often wondered what the happy medium is between desks with
no walls at all (cheap!), cubicle farms, and private offices (expensive)

and also which one fosters more creativity.

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DaniFong
Probably more important: the location. Pick something in a nice urban
environment close to public transit

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oldgregg
Not to be too critical, but if you are asking this question this is a
possibility you are feeling pressured to get an office because "that's what
professional people do" and not because it actually provides much tangible
value. Get an office if you NEED one but make sure you absolutely have no
other option (find contract/telecommuters/etc)... An office can seriously
affect you burn rate which is usually bad news unless you have a clear path to
profitability.

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mchang16
Great question, but no. I have been doing the non-office thing for almost a
year. I have 35 contractors working from me off-site. But my business has hit
a point where I need to hire two full-time people (to keep it running) and my
partner is soon going to be joining me....so we need a space.

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swombat
We've got 2 full-time people working together on a development project. One
(me) is in London, the other in Kansas.

Office space is overrated. Just give everyone an allowance to buy a big desk
and a decent ADSL connection.

Daniel

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josefresco
There are no "creative spaces" only creative people. Reminds me of the Mac vs.
PC creative work argument. Find good people and they won't care if they work
in a cool trendy "loft" in San Fran or a boring grey cubicle in a converted
strip mall in Idaho. My workspace is exactly the size of two 19" LCD monitors.

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mdakin
There is statistical evidence that suggests ceiling height influences thinking
patterns. Higher ceilings encourage creative thinking and lower ceilings
encourage detail-oriented thinking. [1] Obviously both patterns are critically
important to hackers and businessmen.

Likely there are a whole suite of variables associated with a physical space
that have an effect on thinking.

Yay for good architecture and design!

[1] <http://www.csom.umn.edu/assets/71190.pdf>

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bigtoga
Is it in the realm of possibilities that you can buy a bigger house with more
bedrooms and then convert them into office space? That's what lots of folks
do... There are many, many advantages of doing so.

You mentioned you needed to bring clients and investors to the office. As
someone said, investors often like to see the bootstrapper be creative so
you'll get bonus points. Some clients will be put off; others will think it's
great - only you know. Sorry if this takes you off the track of your question.

To answer your question: you know what the best thing to do is. Asking for
advice here is futile since, as you can see, you get so many different types
of answers. Trust your instincts; no one knows the business better than you.

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aquaphile
Be careful about zoning laws, though. Many houses are zoned solely for
residential use and cannot be used for commercial offices. I am not a fan of
zoning laws, but as a company executive you should be aware that converting
spaces is full of legal pitfalls.

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xirium
As I understand it, UK law is quite good in this regard. Any number of
residents can work from home but no-one is supposed to commute to a
residential property. This means that a reasonable number of founders can live
and work in the same building.

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h34t
[http://www.amanet.org/performance-
profits/editorial.cfm?Ed=3...](http://www.amanet.org/performance-
profits/editorial.cfm?Ed=340) "90 percent of workers believe that better
office design leads to better overall performance and gives the company a
competitive advantage, and 90 percent of senior executives believed that a
better physical working environment would have a positive impact on the bottom
line"

[http://www.management-issues.com/2006/8/24/research/poor-
wor...](http://www.management-issues.com/2006/8/24/research/poor-workplace-
design-damages-productivity.asp) "even simple things such as good lighting and
having adequate daylight can reduce absenteeism by 15 per cent and increase
productivity by between 2.8 per cent and 20 per cent."

[http://www.cabe.org.uk/default.aspx?contentitemid=659&fi...](http://www.cabe.org.uk/default.aspx?contentitemid=659&field=sitesearch&term=The%20Impact%20of%20Office%20Design%20on%20Business%20Performance%20&type=0&addparams=%26amp%3btypeid%3d12)
"In a 2003 survey by Management Today magazine, virtually all (94 per cent) of
those responding said that they regarded their place of work as a symbol of
whether or not they were valued by their employer. Yet only 39 per cent
thought that their offices had been designed ‘with people in mind’; and in
another study no less than a third said that they were too ashamed of their
offices to bring back colleagues or clients."

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webwright
I'd err on the cheap side, but avoid space that will impede productivity.

Your employees are costing you $50+ per hour (with burden and benefits) - if
you have a more expensive space that'll result in 15 more minutes of
productive work per employee per day (due to privacy, quiet, whatever)...
Well, it's easy to do the math.

Creative spaces are good. Everyone loves a clubhouse, and that'll help with
loyalty retention. But you can do a lot by getting a crappy space and then
giving each employee $1000 to decorate their space how they will (including
paint!).

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jaydub
Will you be bringing clients to your office regularly? Or is it primarily a
workspace?

Either way I would say go for the cheaper space initially. I think aesthetics
do matter, but only to a certain extent.

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mchang16
Yes, clients and potential investors.

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Pheel_more
Investors might even like a bootstrapping startup. They know their money burns
well...

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liquidcool
I highly recommend reading the book Peopleware by DeMarco and Lister. It
devotes a chapter to the programmer's environment and speaks passionately
about how important it is to get it right. They get into details about
offices. They also say that if you can't get the environment right, you might
as well stop there. Of course, "environment" also includes things like
frivolous interruptions, etc. Anyway, it's an excellent read:

[http://www.amazon.com/Peopleware-Productive-Projects-
Teams-S...](http://www.amazon.com/Peopleware-Productive-Projects-Teams-
Second/dp/0932633439/)

Joel Spolsky (another big fan of Peopleware) wrote on this when he had his
office designed:

<http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/BionicOffice.html>

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edw519
"cheap or creative?"

Both.

Take the cheaper space and make it creative cheaply. There's lots of ways to
do this (beyond my expertise). Home Depot and Ikea are your friends.

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xirium
A friend rented the office of a furniture warehouse. It was cheap, creative
and he was never short of chairs.

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inovica
If you are still doing consulting, do you need your clients to come to your
office? If so, will a 'cooler' office space impress them more, get you more
business? If the answer is no, then save your money and go for a different
space.

Do you even need a space at all? Do you need employees in the same office or
could you all work from home (we ditched out office and work in this way and
meet up once a week).

The final suggestion is to look for an apartment or house that you can rent or
purchase and use that.

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j2d2
Joel wrote this about moveable walls and cool offices.

<http://www.joelonsoftware.com/items/2007/04/13.html>

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izaidi
Aesthetics are pretty important to me but I think I'd be more impressed with a
startup making creative use of a boring space than one working out of, say, a
generically hip loft.

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maxklein
If you are not hiring programmers, then go for the cheap office space, but
spend money on the furniture to make it look really nice. The location is
important though - it should be in a lively area. Also, make sure you don't
have to look at someone the whole day long, i.e, people are reasonably
separate.

One can turn almost any space into a nice looking room. You just need an
appropriate amount of inspiration and some outside help.

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asdf333
Are you crazy. Save your money to make sure the company succeeds!

I heard this quote somewhere: Run your startup like a one story whorehouse.

It was mentioned by a VC who has seen many startups come and go. Not to say
they are the final word, but I think its very true.

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TrevorJ
Creativity cannot exist in a vaccuum, without some contraints put on it, it
explodes in a million directions like so much debris.

So I second those who say you should take the opportunity to be creative with
the dull space and make it your own :-)

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comforteagle
Stick to the budget. Never rely on hope when it comes to paying current bills.

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mchang16
Wow, thanks for all the suggestions and tips! I appreciate all the helpful
advice!

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tumpak
i think, you can make creative use out of boring office spaces with "creative
interior decor."

Maybe concentrate more on "interior designer" on a "boring office space" for a
change.

When in startups better to be frugal and creative.

~~~
bigtoga
Sine when do "frugal" and "interior designer" go together?

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giles_bowkett
The answer is neither one.

You are on automatic pilot.

"I am in the process of looking for an office space to move my business so
that I can hire some employees."

It is 2008. Hire your employees. Where they work is not your problem any more.

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iamdave
I think you need to answer not what appeals to what you want, but what you
need; and I come to that conclusion based on your very word choice "plain",
"boring", "uninteresting". If you need the space, find out what your budget
will allow and what meets the accommodations of your team.

Solve your problems first, and the rest will follow. 37Signals has been
preaching it, and so will I because it _works_

