

Should IT unionize? - snydeq
http://www.infoworld.com/article/08/09/04/36NF-union-for-tech-workers_1.html

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tjic
Cartlization / collusion of labor makes sense when the differential between
the best and worst performers is relatively small. The best coal miner might
swing his pick 50% or 75% faster than the worst. The best janitor might do a
40% better job of emptying trash cans.

Given that it's the conventional wisdom around here that some engineers are
10x as productive as others, why would any good techie want to join a union?

If one ever did form (and this is far from the first call for it, and they've
never come anywhere close to success), you're going to get adverse selection -
only the weakest techies (those who worry that they can't cut the mustard and
will be fired without a union) will join.

In that way, a union - if membership was optional - would be a great thing: it
would let us identify the bottom 50% of the labor pool in seconds.

~~~
olefoo
Cartelisation also takes other forms, not just unions, but also professional
organizations.

The best doctor is 100s of times better than the worst (incalculably better
since you may be avoiding catastrophic outcomes), and yet doctors have a
professional cartel that regulates who can get in and what you have to know to
be considered a doctor.

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tomjen
So the idiots can leech of me? Fuck that.

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fharper1961
Unions in the US appear to be pretty screwed up.

I see a union as a way of obtaining a balance of power between powerful
corporations and individual employees.

The reason US unions are bad are \- you can't generally choose between
competing unions \- unions monopolize industries and/or professions

In other first world countries you generally have a choice about which union
you join and there aren't any jobs which require union membership.

Unions can be useful to \- have qualified people on your side in case of a
problem with your employer \- influence political decisions to protect and
improve employees rights

I'm pretty sure the lack of functioning unions is the reason the US is the
only 1st world country that doesn't guarantee health care for it's workers,
and that wages have stagnated over the last 35 years or so.

Of course the system is so entrenched it seems very unlikely anything will
change in the foreseeable future.

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gamble
Historically, the most successful 'unions' have been the professional medical,
legal, and engineering associations, since they've been delegated the right
under law to control the number of practitioners. For IT unionization to work,
you'd need to persuade government to treat it as an engineering profession and
require licensure. Personally, I think the window of opportunity to
professionalize IT has long since closed.

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andreyf
No.

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danielrhodes
Unionizing would be like saying that programmers/IT is a commodity. I think we
would all agree that this isn't the case.

~~~
turkishrevenge
If you produce labor for your employer and you are paid wages according to
labor rendered, you are a commodity. Well, not "you" specifically, but the
labor time you sell to the employer.

~~~
danielrhodes
Not entirely true. A commodity is basically saying that every unit (e.g. a
programmer) is the same, in the same way that every piece of rice is the same
or every steel worker is the same. With programmers there is a wide range of
different skills and experiences which deserve different levels of pay. A
union would be a good thing to have if there were not a lot of differences
between them.

~~~
turkishrevenge
"A commodity is basically saying that every unit (e.g. a programmer) is the
same, in the same way that every piece of rice is the same or every steel
worker is the same."

So what about, say a car. Some cars are affordable, some extremely expensive.
They are all still commodities. Why then is there such a price disparity? Some
cars are more complex, and thus require a greater degree of skill during
construction. Others may be composed of exotic or rare materials, which take
more manpower and a larger amount of capital to produce than a cheaper
material.

The same applies to IT. Some jobs in IT are relatively simple, such as a Help
desk attendant, while others are more demanding in terms of knowledge and
application. Each worker, though is paid in proportion to the degree of skill
he/she exhibits.

Your skill and ability to work for a wage, although unique to living
individuals, is still a commodity, regardless of whether you want to consider
it as such.

~~~
fharper1961
See below definitions of commodity from
<http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/commodity>

None of them correspond with turkishrevenge's idea of what the word means.

\- Anything movable (a good) that is bought and sold. \- Something useful or
valuable. Example: "It really makes me sad that football club chairmen and
boards seem to have lost that most precious commodity - patience. "Sam's
sacking at Newcastle had, I suppose, been on the cards for a while, but it is
really ridiculous to fire a manager after such a short time. Somerset County
Gazette on Jan. 14th, 2008.

(economics) Raw materials, agricultural products and other primary products as
objects of large scale trading in specialized exchanges.

(marketing) Undifferentiated goods characterized by a low profit margin, as
distinguished from branded products.

~~~
turkishrevenge
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labor_theory_of_value>
<http://www.halfsigma.com/2006/11/labor_and_commo.html>

~~~
omouse
How about you guys use a made-up word like "awdha" and agree upon a definition
for it instead of using the loaded word "commodity".

------
enki
god no!

