
Playhaven developer fired for sexual jokes - tapan_pandita
http://venturebeat.com/2013/03/20/playhaven-developer-fired-for-making-sexual-jokes-after-sendgrids-developer-evangelist-outs-him-on-twitter/
======
downandout
This woman saw an opportunity to pick up some Twitter followers, knowing that
at least one or two people would be upset by her embellished explanation of
what happened. In the process she took away someone's livelihood, which is
despicable in my opinion. She would have simply asked them to be quiet if she
were truly offended. Instead she smiled, photographed them, and let them
continue their _private_ conversation. It's pretty clear that she wanted
publicity - nothing more. #FameWhore

~~~
knowtheory
You are speculating about someone else's motives and conduct. Unless you have
evidence to back up the assertions you are making, you are behaving in exactly
the same manner for which you are criticizing others.

Also, private conversations held in public are no longer private.

~~~
downandout
Her actions reveal her motives. When someone offends you, are you more likely
to ask them to be quiet, or take to your blog to write a lengthy post about
it, trash them on Twitter, and get them fired? I'd hate to see what she's done
to her ex boyfriends or girlfriends if this is truly just her standard
reaction to being offended.

By the way, she has posted a message on that blog post thanking HN users for
stopping by and taking interest in her. That pretty clearly reinforces the
idea that she is quite happy and cognizant of the fact that she managed to
turn this into something far more than it was.

~~~
knowtheory
Let's start with a disclaimer. I wasn't at PyCon, i don't know what actually
happened and i think this entire affair is a disaster for everyone involved. I
don't know who is right, but i do know there are a whole lot of people being
assholes.

Along those lines, why do you feel comfortable to sit in judgement of this
woman, because she didn't do what you would have done?

Try looking at this from another perspective. If the issue that she is
concerned about is not _this particular incidence of sexism_ that happens to
be happening near her (if it did), but instead that the mindset of those in
her community, telling these particular guys to STFU is not going to address
the problem. If they're going to blow her off and just go somewhere else and
continue being jackasses (again, if they actually were being jackasses), then
what could she hope to achieve by confronting them directly?

If on the other hand, her goal is to call out a particular _type_ of conduct
as unacceptable, then her behavior seems sensible. She's not going to change
these dudes' minds, but she might reach others. So, post to blog, post to
twitter.

I wish everyone would stop jumping immediately to evil plots, and accusing
others of intentionally gaining at the expense of someone else.

~~~
downandout
It's not an evil plot, it's just very opportunistic and shows a complete lack
of concern or empathy for the effects of her actions on others. She probably
thinks she came out on top of this because her follower count may have gone up
slightly, but I think that in the end she has cost herself future
opportunities with this.

The message she sent was very simple: Being anywhere near her is a liability.
You never know what will offend her, and how she will react to it. Do not hire
her or take a job that would involve interaction with her. Stay away. Don't
even eat lunch near her, as she may broadcast your lunch conversation if she
finds the content to be objectionable.

~~~
knowtheory
And where has she shown to have a complete lack of concern or empathy for the
effects of her actions on others?

Has she gloated that her follower count has increased? Has she expressed any
glee over these firings?

In fact, if you've read the Venture Beat article they assert directly the
opposite:

 _Richards, while standing by her actions, has tweeted that she did not think
the developer should lose his job. It’s fairly clear that getting him fired
was not her intention._

~~~
jcc80
"Has she expressed any glee over these firings?"

No, but she did compare herself to Joan of Arc and say that she stepped up
when the future of women in tech was on the line. A tad bit dramatic.

~~~
knowtheory
But surely even an overly dramatic defense of her own actions does not
directly imply that she was trying to get anyone fired, or that her goal was
only self-aggrandizement.

She can be both obnoxious, maybe even wrong-headed, and still act in good
faith. (even if her actions did not have the consequences she intended)

~~~
jcc80
No I don't think she was trying to get anyone fired and did not mean to imply
that. She just decided to create a mess and try to turn this into something
about sexism. I can't know her intentions but my guess is that her passion for
this issue prevents her from acting reasonable and in fact, did more to hurt
the cause than help it. It just provides ammo to all those who are afraid to
hire a woman and that's a shame.

------
Tichy
All things being equal, working together with women puts you at risk (they
might get accidentally offended, go ballistic and ruin your life), working
with men much less so (harrassment claims much less likely). Conclusion: it is
prerferrable to not work with women. Just saying how it is, rationally. To be
honest, it sometimes felt weird to work at places with 100% guys as
developers. But at the end of the day, I just want to get my job done then get
home to wife+ kids. Exactly why should I care about getting more women into
IT?

Honest question - I see the appeal of lower wages for employers (more devs-
they get cheaper). That would lower my wages, too. As for nicer atmosphere at
work - flirting and being nice is too dangerous, so having women around would
actually make things worse.

Note: I don't really have a problem with women in IT, just wondering about the
future.

~~~
ciupicri
I know someone who thought exactly like you. He and the rest of his colleagues
evaluated a woman and they wondered if she could really integrate into the
group (because of dirty jokes), so in the end they decided not to hire her.

~~~
Tichy
I don't even like dirty jokes. But to be honest, it seems fair to me that
people prefer to hire people who share their sense of humor.

~~~
ciupicri
Indeed. It could have been another trait as well like the work philosophy
which could be conservative or fast paced (and more prone to errors) for
example. There's also the saying when in Rome do as the Romans do.

------
lionhearted
So, making a joke about a "dongle" with your friend is a firable offense, but
taking a photo of someone without their permission and publicly calling them
an "ass clown" is okay?

Because she was offended at crudeness directed at no one and merely overheard,
that means crude insults directed at people are appropriate? And in a way
that's meant to harm them publicly?

What a damn strange time we live in.

~~~
jcc80
For those keeping score, this is also OK: _@adriarichards Black people CANNOT
be racist against White people. Racism is a position of the oppressor who has
the power_ \- <http://i.imgur.com/ou8JZVu.jpg>

~~~
knowtheory
And what score are we keeping?

What are you hoping to accomplish by highlighting this particular tweet? What
does this have to do with the incident at PyCon? What does this have to do
with determining the facts of what happened at PyCon?

Even if you disagree with this tweet (which i do), aside from the obvious
character assassination, what exactly are you asking us to infer here?

~~~
jcc80
"What exactly are you asking us to infer here?"

That in this situation she's playing a victim when she's actually the one with
the power. Granted, old tweet.

~~~
knowtheory
And you think she has the power because...?

She has a twitter account? Or because she works in developer relations for a
startup? Or because she's got two X chromosomes? Or because she's black?

~~~
jcc80
It's pretty obvious - she was able to get a guy fired for making a Jr. High
joke to his friend (sexual joke, not sexist) and stir up a hornets nest with a
simple tweet.

~~~
throwaway0321
@knowtheory The person being fired is a direct consequence of her tweet. While
it isn't likely she directly intended for anyone to lose their jobs, it is
equally unlikely she expected absolutely nothing to come of it.

Edit: changed wording.

~~~
revdinosaur
I think it's fascinating that every single instance of this argument, in this
and related threads, posters conveniently decide to begin tracing the chain of
events that lead to the firing at the tweet--not the jokes.

~~~
jcc80
Maybe the part you're missing is that the jokes aren't the unusual part. Just
run of the mill banter between a couple guys when maybe they should have been
quiet so they weren't distracting people from listening. Tweeting a photo to
shame people at a conference is highly unusual. Getting offended at a dongle
joke not directed at you is highly unusual. That's why the story normally
starts there.

Not trying to be a jerk - if you feel the jokes are somehow unique or
offensive. Most people just don't see it that way though.

~~~
revdinosaur
I'm sorry but you're incorrect. Getting "offended" by a sexual joke is not
unusual, nor does its normalcy matter in this situation. What they did was
create an unwelcoming environment around them by engaging in locker room-level
humor.

I personally am not offended by the joke nor do I think they are clever or
unique, but saying that they don't matter because they're the status quo is a
really weak argument and it speaks to the lack of progressive thought in this
community when it comes to diversity.

~~~
jcc80
Lack of progressive thought on diversity? If you want an argument about dongle
jokes creating an unwelcoming environment look elsewhere. The most sensitive
among us don't set the rules.
<https://amandablumwords.wordpress.com/2013/03/21/3/>

~~~
revdinosaur
I think everyone following this has read the article you linked, and you have
a valid point. But I think that you are in error if you're endorsing the idea
that because something is normal or happens often (like casual banter between
males) that it is inherently non-harmful.

The tone of conversations between other males often repels me, but the
reaction to calling them out for it is worse often then simply putting up with
it, as Adria Richards is experiencing. The focus is shifted to examining the
complainant rather than truly evaluating the matter at hand. It's extremely
unfortunate to witness or experience and is undeniably regressive in my
opinion.

------
scrrr
Is this about sexism again? The culture has lost when political correctness is
taken too far. Perhaps the guy behaved like an a __ __*e for disturbing other
people, but this is not how you handle it. You turn around, and tell them to
STFU. But perhaps she was offended by the nature of the jokes.

Possibly off topic, because I didn't follow the incident at all. But I just
thought of Derek Sivers' summary [1] of PG's "Hackers and Painters" (which I
haven't read yet) and there he writes:

"What exactly is "hate speech?" This sounds like a phrase out of 1984. Labels
like that are probably the biggest external clue. If a statement is false,
that's the worst thing you can say about it. You don't need to say that it's
heretical. And if it isn't false, it shouldn't be suppressed. So when you see
statements being attacked as x-ist or y-ic (substitute your current values of
x and y), whether in 1630 or 2030, that's a sure sign that something is
wrong."

[1] <http://sivers.org/book/HackersPainters>

For what it's worth, he shouldn't be too upset for not working there anymore.

~~~
gnur
I agree, it is in peoples nature to make fun of those who are different, be it
by gender, etnicity, height, intelligence or whatever. But in most cases, this
is harmless fun between two people that don't share that trait.

Only when you are actively, openly insulting said people and treating them
different then anyone else you are doing something very wrong.

Some racist jokes are just really funny, but that doesn't mean I'm racist.

Also, I feel like this is more of an issue in the US then in Europe. I really
couldn't imagine someone being fire for a picture posted on twitter by someone
else accusing you of something nasty in The Netherlands.

~~~
tomp
It is also in people's nature to make fun about those that are similar, the
same, or even about themselves.

I make a lot of jokes. About women, blacks, jews, ... also, about men, whites,
programmers. I don't discriminate; I make fun of everything and everyone!

~~~
illuminate
"I make a lot of jokes. About women, blacks, jews, ... also, about men,
whites, programmers. I don't discriminate; I make fun of everything and
everyone!"

The existence of dirty joke books that include every possible person and group
doesn't make it a good idea to bring any one of them up at a professional
event.

------
michaelgrafl
I think many people - even smart ones - still don't realize how big the
possible consequences are when publicly bullying someone.

My thoughts on this: don't do it. You might feel like venting right now, and
you might have good reason to do so, but do it in your immediate vicinity, not
on the Internet. You might find out later that you overreacted, and you won't
be able to take it back.

Also, I find it ugly to put someone in the pillory who has a lot less clout
than you do, no matter how justified it seems to you. It seems like applying
mob law to me, which I have an aversion to.

------
Joe-Z
Wow, that's pretty tough isn't it?

I mean, imagine going to a conference, joking around with a friend and the
next day you get fired for it!

I wouldn't even go so far to call this (yet another) discussion about women in
tech. I mean there are many topics not gender-related that could potentially
offend people. The thing that I don't get is: Why did she decide to take a
picture of them an put it on Twitter?

If she really didn't want to talk to them in person, which I wouldn't blame
her for if she was offended by ther attitude, why didn't she just report them
to the staff and get them escorted out?

Does anyone know if the people involved here ever talked to each other?

~~~
TeeWEE
According to the post they didn't. She just made a picture and posted it to
twitter.

If she just had said: "Guys that's not appropriate" Then they would probably
pardon themselves!

Sorry but they way she acted is not appropriate in my eyes. Just make a
picture of somebody and put it online! C'mon that's against normal privacy
etiquette.

~~~
masklinn
> If she just had said: "Guys that's not appropriate" Then they would probably
> _apologize_!

Which they did when taken aside by PyCon staff to discuss the incident:
[http://pycon.blogspot.be/2013/03/pycon-response-to-
inappropr...](http://pycon.blogspot.be/2013/03/pycon-response-to-
inappropriate.html)

------
nicholassmith
There's a couple of things that really suck about this. One, the misogynistic
reaction from the masked avengers of the internet is shameful, and has
actually made the situation _much_ worse now. The second being, how did we end
up here at all? I get that someone might feel uncomfortable about dick jokes,
but given dick and fart jokes have been staples of low brow humour for a
pretty long time it's pretty petty to name and shame over it.

We all should be concerned about sexism in the industry, in this case it seems
like it's been taken too far and Playhaven should be ashamed to have not had
some faith in their member of staff. The last time a discussion on sexism came
out I made a comment about how we need to have responsible disclosure about
these issues, for this exact reason. It's turned into a witchhunt, and it's
turned nasty and vicious.

------
rurounijones
Massively discussed not 11 hours ago
<https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5410515>

~~~
jrajav
This is a completely different story with new information on the topic.

~~~
masklinn
It's not and there isn't. The old thread has way more info, because the people
involved were discussing things there directly (including the guy who got
canned who replied to several comments and questions)

------
TeeWEE
C'mon! Jokes about sex are just as common between girls, maybe even more so.
Sorry but why the hell fire somebody with humor?

I actually miss the github message "hardcore forking action" when i fork a
repo. That was humor!

------
aviraldg
I don't get the point.

1\. A said something to B (doesn't matter what he said)

2\. C overheard and found it offensive.

3\. Honestly, why should A & B care? (that wasn't intended for C!)

I shudder to think of a society where I must consider every word I say, just
to avoid offending someone. Doing this will lead us to the kind of world
described in Fahrenheit 451, where nobody can really write about anything or
anyone because their opinions might offend someone.

Also, I guess someone doesn't understand the difference between `sexual` and
`sexist`.

~~~
sp332
I can understand her reaction at the conference. PyCon has a specific policy
about this. Since they were in earshot of at least a dozen people around them,
it was not a "private" conversation. The PyCon workers took her complaint
seriously and didn't seem to have any problem helping her out. The only thing
she was out of line about was shaming the guys publicly on twitter.

Edit: just found this on the other thread, where someone claiming to be the
guy who got fired makes pretty much the same point.
<https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5398681>

~~~
masklinn
> The PyCon workers took her complaint seriously and didn't seem to have any
> problem helping her out.

Indeed, leading to this: [http://pycon.blogspot.be/2013/03/pycon-response-to-
inappropr...](http://pycon.blogspot.be/2013/03/pycon-response-to-
inappropriate.html)

> Both parties were met with, in private. The comments that were made were in
> poor taste, and individuals involved agreed, apologized and no further
> actions were taken by the staff of PyCon 2013. No individuals were removed
> from the conference, no sanctions were levied.

~~~
sp332
Right. So is there an official statement from Playhaven that this is why they
let him go? Seems we only have his word on that at this point, and it just
seems kind of unlikely. (edit: wrong company)

~~~
masklinn
I think you mean PlayHaven? Unless I'm mistaken, SendGrid is Adria's employer
(she's a developer evangelist for them), not the fired guy's.

~~~
sp332
already fixed, thanks ;)

~~~
masklinn
Here's a blog post from playhaven: <http://blog.playhaven.com/addressing-
pycon/>

Basically no additional information, they declare having conducted a "thorough
investigation" but provide no information and basically don't add anything to
"mr-hank"'s (the fired-guy-who-is-not-alex-reid) previous comments.

------
adnam
PyCon must have been pretty boring, to have to create controversies such as
this.

Unrelated, but I would definitely fork this guys repo:
<https://github.com/snsn/dongle>

~~~
AdrianRossouw
pycon isn't unique, or special, in this regard.

I've lost count how many conferences I attended, or read about, that had some
form of sexism scandal.

My initial response to pycon-gate 2013 was just 'every.fucking.time!'

------
Steph0r
Well if i was the little girl on the photo in the slides.. I guess I would
rather work in an industry with occasional sexual jokes then in an industry
where the reaction to hearing something you don't want to hear, even though it
is not directed at you, is snapping a picture of someone without their
permission, posting it online without their permission and proceeding to
insult them, instead of just asking them to stop or minding your own
business..

------
girvo
This entire situation makes me upset, and frankly, makes me feel I should
watch my toungue when joking with mates and someone could overheard me.

That doesn't advance the fight against sexism. In fact, it makes it more
adversarial.

Besides, offended != sexism. I hope she's happy.

~~~
scotty79
Why would you even make jokes except anonymously over the internet?

Let's keep Real professional!

------
js-coder
Seriously, what the fuck is wrong with that woman? She could've turned around
and told them to stop making these kind of jokes. That she made a similar joke
before is even weirder.

------
brador
Is this Victorian England? Dude better cover up his ankles.

~~~
jfmercer
We are policed far, far more often, and more thoroughly, than the Victorians
could have dreamed. In that sense, Victorian England was a far freer society
than ours.

~~~
jiggy2011
But we have laws that are (on the whole) more liberal than the Victorians.

------
p6v53as
We, male developers, actually benefit from her actions. One guy may have lost
his job, not a big deal, gonna get another, after all this publicity he got
quite famous, but the main thing is that less woman will want to take the job
of software development, less employers will want to hire woman because of the
possible problems like this and so less concurrency for us and bigger salary.

~~~
Tichy
Until they introduce mandatory hiring quotas

------
tirant
Really? Why is Adria Richards tweeting about a private conversation between
two guys joking about sex? She needs to get out more often.

------
prajjwal
"I like offending people, because I think people who get offended should be
offended." - Linus Torvalds

~~~
illuminate
Linus is aggressive WRT policy and technology, he's not making it okay for you
to tell racist jokes and remain employed.

------
davidland
With which right did she anyway take picture of the guys and posted them on
the internet without permit? Hypothetically she could just have built up the
entire story. What scares me the most is how having a wide (social) audience
can give you a position of power: the followers become your minions and you
can easily start your personal battles. Managers at Playheaven rushed too
much, IMO.

------
jahewson
Oh come on, Amy Poehler made a dongle joke in Best Buy's Super Bowl ad!

~~~
ciupicri
Link to the video <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=61fXa9hTowY>

------
jlebrech
I believe if you're a human being of any gender, if you cannot handle innuendo
(whether intended or unintended) then you shouldn't be in a job. And if you're
not a party in that conversation you have no right to complain to other non-
parties. just ask the people you are uncomfortable with directly if you must.
learn humour.

------
svlasits
Stunning that the outrage over this over-reactive firing is made manifest by
rage--expressed as professional disrespect, name-calling, and sexually violent
attacks--at the woman who called him out, with nary a peep about his over-
reactive employer. <\---- __This __is evidence of deep and corrosive sexism.

------
jmomo
This is a case of everyone behaving badly and it turning into an ulgy fight.
Who's side do you choose?

None of the above. Watch, learn, but stay the hell out of it.

------
aw3c2
There is nothing in this link that was not discussed at HN already.

------
kushti
Adria Richards published private conversation she eavesdropped on and also the
picture without asking. She must be fired at least for that

------
TheZenPsycho
Woman complains of feeling uncomfortable in a tech conference due to juvenile
jokes. Hacker News commenters ranging from indifferent to hostile to that
notion. Number of people surprised by this outcome: miniscule.

------
zalew
[https://twitter.com/search?q=%23donglegate&src=hash](https://twitter.com/search?q=%23donglegate&src=hash)
<grabs popcorn>

------
jfmercer
The issue here is not sexism. It is surveillance. In this case, sexism is a
red herring.

------
scotty79
Why people are mad at Adria? She just reported something that disturbed her.

I'd be rather angry at PyCon organizers for kicking out people for something
that was neither sexual language, nor sexist joke. Unless sexual innuendo
jokes count as sexual language? They should really clear that up in their code
of conduct.

Of course top idiots here is Playhaven who kicked out dev for making sexual
innuendo immature joke to his friends bit too loud.

~~~
risratorn
The case here is wether or not she should have posted a public twitter message
and picture of the two guys offending her (and women in general). Imho she
shouldn't have done that, it was wrong and she should apologise for it.

The fact that the guy got fired is another mater. Since the conference
organisation kicked them out during the conference he would have had to
explain his actions to his employer anyway (who probably paid for the
conference) and held accountable for it. Wether or not that resulted in him
getting fired is up to his employer.

But ... Adria's actions made it a public discussion which directly affected
Playhaven's reputation and thus made the mater far worse for all parties
involved. That's on Adria.

~~~
scotty79
Guys: Haha! Dongle! Haha!

Adria (of thousands friends and iPhone): Those guys are not cool!

PyCon: Let's resolve the matter. Guys, apologize! That's good! Now let's
continue.

Playhaven: Huh? Somebody mentioned us? That's bad! Our reputation is at stake!
Let's trash it thoroughly by firing father of three for something he said!

I'm probably lacking proper sensitivity but for me it's obvious when it got
all messed up. It's when the exchange of information unnecessarily triggered
harsh physical action.

~~~
masklinn
Note that playhaven has broken out a blog post, though as far as I can see it
does not explain anything and provides no information beyond what is already
known: <http://blog.playhaven.com/addressing-pycon/>

------
coldtea
Just had a nightmarish vision: people behaving like her AND Google Glasses.

No privacy for anyone -- and prudish allegations to top it.

------
scotty79
I was searching for what sexual language is. I found this
[http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/elderhealth/9356287/Crude-...](http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/elderhealth/9356287/Crude-
sexual-language-is-commonplace-in-care-homes-panel-rules.html) Not sure what
to think about this so I'll just leave it here.

------
mseebach
> _"but when she saw a picture of a little girl onstage, she felt she needed
> to make a stand for her"_

This is outrageously pretentious.

------
auggierose
This is not about men or women. Some people are just twats. Without exactly
knowing the context in which this happened we don't know who the twat was in
this case. I probably wouldn't want to work with either of them.

~~~
yarrel
Gendered slur. Where can I report you for firing?

------
smewpy
Shame that this is the biggest news to come out of PyCon.

------
norswap
Far from being an intelligent move, it's bad PR.

------
mkr-hn
Another thread of soapboxing. It's rare that I come this close to using the
flag button, but the story does have some details I missed, so it has some
value.

------
zemelb
Take a look at the world and all the shitty stuff happening every single day
again. Then, think about a joke referencing a penis.

Do you really feel the need to be offended? Do you really think it is worth to
tell the world someone touched a broken braincell in your head because of a
penis joke? Clearly, you have your priorities wrong miss Richards. Same goes
for the company firing the guy, why would you care about a crazy woman with
penis issues?

~~~
MoreMoschops
So how do you justify where you draw your own line? Is it okay for you to
murder someone because every day somewhere there is a massacre? No? Well then,
is it okay for you to shoplift because someone else, somewhere, is stealing
much more than you? Is it okay for you to push someone over because every day,
somewhere, someone gets assaulted?

The list goes on and on. If you draw the line anywhere then you've applied the
exact same principle you just espoused against; you just choose to draw the
line in a slightly different place.

~~~
rdavl
I think what you are looking for is called "common sense".

You won't be going around murdering people since it is common sense and you
are brought up this way.

Murder and dirty joke is not the same thing if you have any common sense and
that's why usually murder has priority over dirty jokes in court. You usually
don't get sued for dirty joke. That's why we don't call dirty jokes a murder
nor we call murder a joke.

And the common sense is what should set our priorities. Who would you rather
see in court first mass murderer or a thief? And on what grounds do you decide
this? How do YOU decide which is more offensive? Do we have scales for it?

~~~
MoreMoschops
"Common sense" is not much more than a myth now that (many, including those of
the majority of the posters here) societies are not homogenous and not filled
with people all subscribing to a very narrow view of what is right and wrong.
I believe "common sense" is, in this context, a way of stating a belief
without feeling that any evidence is required. A bit like religion.

There was a thread around here somewhere in which the correct, acceptable
behaviour of a society (real, not an imaginary example, unless I radically
misread it) involved boys becoming men by giving oral sex (and swallowing) to
older men. A neighbouring society decided anal sex was the way to go. This is
simply "common sense" in those societies. Everyone agrees.

We live in societies where one person's "common sense" is another person's
completely unacceptable behaviour.

"Who would you rather see in court first mass murderer or a thief?"

Will you be petitioning the courts to refuse to try thieves unless everyone
accused of murder has been tried already? That would essentially legalise
theft.

