
Iceland Kicked Out FBI Agents Who Flew in Unannounced to Investigate WikiLeaks - sdoering
http://clevelandleader.com/node/20013
======
josteink
That's to be expected. They have no jurisdiction there.

Edit: There's been numerous news reports all over the world about FBI/CIA
agents doing police-work without reporting to local authorities in countries
which are not the US, where they have no rights and no jurisdiction, as if it
was their own turf.

CIA operatives have been charged in numerous European countries for kidnapping
and abducting people not guilty on anything by local laws. Because the US
wanted them silenced, because of "terror" or whatever.

I'm going to pressume this is what happened here as well.

I can assure you that if anyone had done the same in the US, they wouldn't
merely be kicked out, they would be jailed for being in violation of the law.

~~~
mercurial
> CIA operatives have been charged in numerous European countries for
> kidnapping and abducting people not guilty on anything by local laws.
> Because the US wanted them silenced, because of "terror" or whatever.

As a European, I'll bet you whatever you want they were doing this with the
full knowledge of the government and intelligence departments of the
aforementionned countries.

~~~
toyg
Indeed, relevant people in Italy were roasted for it.

Just because you are the secret service, it doesn't mean you can ignore the
law.

~~~
fosap
It does pretty much. It means you can abduct people and torture them, that's
pretty much everything a secret service would ever want to do.

Google Murat Kurnaz. There was a whole network of CIA prisons with torture in
Europe.

~~~
toyg
Nope. That's why pretty much everywhere, in civilized countries, foreign and
domestic spying are done by separate entities: the laws they have to follow
are different, and there is (usually) a different degree of oversight.

Secret services are hardly all about "abducting people and torturing them",
that's actually an aberration of their role. Most of what they do is signal-
intelligence of various sorts, and the most silently they can do it, the
better. "Abducting and torturing" are all but silent activities; you are
basically shouting at your enemy to go fuck himself, the intelligence
equivalent of yokels shooting in the air. Abducting and torturing is what a
_secret police_ does, the sort of stuff you see in clueless dictatorial
countries. Albeit it might be considered effective in the short term, it makes
you powerless in the long run, when you've abducted/tortured/killed all the
enemies you knew but you don't know anything about the _new_ enemies.

~~~
subsystem
Nope to what? One of the biggest problems with the CIA is that they are
intelligence, secret world police and paramilitary all at the same time.

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extraordinary_rendition>
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_site>
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camp_Chapman_attack>

etc.

~~~
toyg
Yes, but that doesn't mean this is what it _should_ be. In fact, most other
secret services are _not_ like that.

------
yread
Wow what a weird map. No state in Europe is labeled (except Denmark in
Greenland and Russia in Asia) whereas most but not all of the others are. And
Europe is divided on Europe and European Russia-Asia. Russia is labeled up
there in the upper right corner. The map's scale is in Libya. Only prime
meridian, arctic circle and tropic of cancer are shown. And there are some
weird blobs west of Portugal. And Kosovo is still part of Serbia

~~~
morsch
Taken from <http://www.worldatlas.com/webimage/countrys/europe/is.htm>

Hilariously bad mapping for a geography web site. The weird blob west of
Portugal is supposed to be a marking where north is.

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andrewcooke
is this because it's illegal to work without a permit [edit: no, not needed
for 90 days for americans]? or is it just detectives that cannot work there?
or is it that they claimed to be local policemen?

if i were a market analyst who flew to iceland (private plane or not - what
has that got to do with it?) to study local opinions on some new product, say,
would that get a similar reaction? would it be ok as long as i didn't ask to
speak to govt officials?

is there some kind of international convention / agreement that says that
policemen don't work abroad? is it that the request for cooperation was at too
low a level? [edit: ok, i added this just as it was suggested in a reply;
thanks]

i'm having a hard time understanding what the problem was here from the
article, which seems to assume that something was obviously wrong.

[oh noes - someone asking questions! better downvote! sigh...]

~~~
Xylakant
In general it's a problem in pretty much every country when official
investigators fly in and start investigating without prior notice. The US
administration would do the same if the german police sent an investigation
team over to collect evidence in a german case. The official procedure is to
request help or permission from the local government and only send
investigators if granted. Such requests get denied in some cases, for example
if the alleged crime is not a crime in the country that you're trying to
investigate in.

~~~
toyg
Note that this is not arbitrary, it actually makes sense: while in a different
country, any police force would be expected to follow that country's own laws,
including things like what you are allowed to ask, how you can ask, what
evidence you can collect or take out of the country, etc etc. A bit of
oversight is required, hence they need to ask for permission, and be assisted
on the ground.

This, incidentally, is one of the outrageous elements in the raid of Kim
Dotcom's house: US authorities pretty much disregarded all local New Zealand
laws on the matter (and somebody in NZ let it happen, they were only slammed
in court during subsequent appeals).

So you have a pattern: federal US authorities investigating copyright "crimes"
will blatantly ignore traditional jurisdiction rules. The Hollywood Empire
does not recognise any equal power, so to speak.

~~~
pyre
How is investigating WikiLeaks, "investigating copyright crimes?"

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CrLf
It seems reality doesn't work quite like Hollywood movies, where the FBI just
walks in whatever country and starts flashing their IDs, while random local
citizens soil their pants.

~~~
robotmay
Here in the UK the FBI are generally seen as a bit of a joke by people in
similar lines of work.

Source: relatives and friends who have had to work with them.

~~~
jessaustin
There's a hilarious scene in _The Guard_
(<http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1540133/>) where all of the Irish Garda are
trying to seem very respectful of Don Cheadle's FBI agent, except for Brendan
Gleeson's Garda who mercilessly takes the piss out of him. Later he says, "Now
I know what you're thinking. You're thinking, these men are armed and
dangerous, and you being an FBI agent you're more used to shooting at unarmed
women and children."

~~~
robotmay
Not sure how I missed that film; that's going on my to-watch list!

------
Irishsteve
It would be like the Malaysians going to America to investigate and arrest
George Bush due to alleged war crimes. They wouldn't get particularly far
unless they OK'd it all with the relevant local authorities.

P.s I've no idea if the story is factually correct. I'm just using it as an
example. [http://www.foreignpolicyjournal.com/2012/05/12/bush-
convicte...](http://www.foreignpolicyjournal.com/2012/05/12/bush-convicted-of-
war-crimes-in-absentia/)

~~~
darkarmani
Is that why they got kicked out? they were trying to arrest people?

I'm not sure why gathering information would be a serious problem if they
followed the laws.

~~~
Irishsteve
It's undermining a countries sovern rights. Most countries don't like this

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fixed_input
While I have no sympathies for those at Wikileaks, and I do not support them
at all, we as Americans need to stop having this grand delusion that our
Government and its agents can do whatever they want whenever they want, as if
all other countries' laws/governments can just be disregarded.

~~~
toyg
In a way, it's a mindset that, sometimes, I get to admire. It's the supreme
confidence in your own right: that everyone else in the world is equal (or,
more often than not, inferior) to you.

The UK used to have something similar; British law specifically said that no
power on Earth could be superior to (English/British) Parliament in any case.
Albeit originally meant to nullify papal (and aristocratic...) claims, so to
speak, that provision came to define the UK approach to foreign policy for
centuries. Nowadays there are umpteen exceptions for EU, UN and whatnot, the
British Empire is gone and with it the hubris, but coming from a much "weaker"
country, I feel that approach can be quite beneficial in many ways.

~~~
ludflu
> The UK used to have something similar;

British imperialism didn't work well for anyone. I certainly hope America
abandons its imperial pretensions. As an American, it doesn't make me proud.

------
adnam
It's not every day that the top story on reddit.com/r/conspiracy is also the
top story on Hacker News.

~~~
nir
And most comments are about as juvenile as the ones on Reddit.

~~~
sliverstorm
HN: The place where redditors go, when they want to feel like they aren't on
reddit?

~~~
nir
To be fair some subreddits have great comment threads, its just that politics
& news seem to attract all the loud fanatics. Here too..

------
S4M
It seems that Iceland is a proud country that doesn't hesitate to say "No" to
the US. I recall that in 2008 they gave to Bobby Fisher the Icelandic
nationality to avoid him been prosecuted by the US (on the motive that he made
Iceland famous for playing his world championship match there), which, as
maeon3 mentions, is another very useful way to occupy the US police forces.

------
znowi
I think it says a lot about the U.S. and its world police attitude. Coming
without notice to another country on a private jet demanding full cooperation.
That's the height of arrogance. I can only praise Iceland for such swift and
duly response.

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jasonkolb
I have to say, between this and their big middle finger to the banks wanting
their taxpayers to bail out banks' bad loans, Iceland is currently my favorite
country. They are well-run organization.

~~~
muoncf
While I half-agree with you, it's really not all as wonderful as you make it
sound. Please take a look at this Wikipedia article:
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Icesave_dispute>

------
maeon3
While FBI Agents are busy flying to Iceland working on Hollywood's vision for
the future of who owns the internet, data, and computers, the following is
allowed to happen:

1\. Guy with a court date for menacing with a weapon is allowed to keep the
weapon, shoots up a bus and abducts a kid:
[http://www.cnn.com/2013/02/01/us/alabama-child-
hostage/index...](http://www.cnn.com/2013/02/01/us/alabama-child-
hostage/index.html?hpt=hp_t2)

2\. No Executive anywhere on the planet has yet to do prison time for any
action, decision or behavior relating to the largest manufactured Financial
Crisis since 1929. Because when prosicuting the best and brightest who use the
law to subvert justice, it's like trying to nail a vapor to the wall:
[http://www.propublica.org/article/why-no-financial-crisis-
pr...](http://www.propublica.org/article/why-no-financial-crisis-prosecutions-
official-says-its-just-too-hard)

But on the plus side, there hasn't been many terrorist attacks as have been in
the middle east, so they're doing an upstanding job there. Who checks the
power of a dysfunctional FBI and smacks them around when they step out of
line? What's the process even if it's only possible in theory? I know the FBI
has to be irreproachable enough to resist the collective action of Mafias and
cults/sects, which would make it a tough system to get rid of, even if it
devolves into the Ministry of life/Ministry of truth
(<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ministry_of_Truth>)

~~~
untog
I'm wary of comparisons like that- the implication is that if the FBI weren't
busy in Iceland they would have caught the child abductor. I don't see any
evidence to suggest that is the case.

~~~
white_devil
The implication was that the FBI has better things to do than to assist
Hollywood in turning the world into a police state because they don't want to
adjust their business models to fit 2013.

There are lots and lots of people in the US, for example, who _should_ be
prosecuted for their financial crimes, but are not, and will not be because
that's how the world works these days.

~~~
pyre
What does WikiLeaks releasing _US Government_ secrets have to do with
_Hollywood_? This just seems like a, "Hey this story is about the FBI, and I
hate the FBI! Everybody let's pile on and bash the FBI for completely
unrelated reasons!"

~~~
white_devil
The GP talked about FBI and Hollywood. But to be more specific, the FBI
represents the US government, and there are plenty of reasons to hate it.

~~~
pyre
The GP also said that the FBI investigating WikiLeaks in Iceland was somehow
pushing Hollywood's agenda, which is a pretty weak position.

~~~
white_devil
Sure, it may well be. I just clarified why _I_ was talking about FBI and
Hollywood together. But really, Hollywood _has_ actually changed the Western
world towards police states. That's bad, regardless of what agencies or
"channels" they've done it through.

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stefantalpalaru
Sounds like the plot for a "Team America: World Police" sequel.

