

Ask HN:  What to do when your code is stolen? - indiejade

I did something dumb.  I was "hired" by one of those awful property management companies as a temp worker -- a secretary for one who was on vacation.  During the 2 weeks I was an employee, I built the company a website to showcase this townhome community it is developing. Multi-million dollars, right?  Some people within the company stole my credit, removed the link to my site, and basically stole my code.<p>We all know most real estate people are Evil, but this really bothers me.  I wrote this whole website from scratch, had my credit taken off and am kind of at a loss as to what to do.  Just because they paid me some amount of money, does this give them a right to erase a signature from a painting?  Help!
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RiderOfGiraffes
OK, there's more emerging as we delve deeper.

Firstly, it appears that you worked on this web site only outside of the hours
you were being paid for. Is that right?

Secondly, you were doing this work in the time allocated to your own company
as an opportunity to show what was possible. Is this right?

Thirdly, during the time you were being paid for, you worked only and
exclusively on what you were asked to do. Is this right?

If so, then so far so good. Now the problems start.

Fourthly, at some point you demonstrated the web site you'd developed running
on your own server. Is that right?

Fifthly, you were specifically requested to transfer the web site to a server
they had control of. Is that right?

Sixthly, you did so, without mentioning payment or issues of ownership. Is
that right?

Why should they think it wasn't theirs? Did you ever say to them that it was
yours, not theirs, and that you were going to offer it in exchange for
payment?

What seems clear is that there is scope for confusion. From what you've been
saying it seems completely reasonable that they think they own it. If you
think otherwise then you must explain not your point of view, but their point
of view.

Consider. They were paying you. You produced this. What did you do or say to
make it clear that the two things aren't related?

EDIT: If it comes to some sort of arbitration - what evidence do you have that
the work is yours?

------
RiderOfGiraffes
IANAL ...

Generally, default contracts (those in effect if you don't explicitly have
one) state that anything you do or produce while working for a company belongs
to the company.

Sucks, doesn't it.

If that's the case where you are (and it varies from region to region, country
to country) then you have no rights. What you produced is theirs, and they can
do what they like with it. Whether this really does extend to removing your
copyright statement or not I don't know, but you're not going to find out
cheaply.

My advice, for what it's worth, is to chalk it up to experience. In two weeks
you built something you could be proud of. Looking at it another way, you've
lost only two weeks of your time, been paid, and learned a valuable lesson.

Don't produce something unless you know who has the rights, who's paying, and
how much.

The only other advice I can give is to write a letter "more in sorrow than
anger" expressing your disappointment that they have appropriated your work,
removed the credit, and have failed to acknowledge the effort you put into it.
You could include a comment that it's been an eye-opener, and experience that
you intend to pass on to others. See what response that gets. Be careful not
to make threats. Be "saddened" by the incident.

Remember, these are comments from someone without a stake in it, and any
action you take is your own. I still suggest you simply walk away, taking the
lesson.

~~~
wizzard
This is good advice. I worry that you've already put up barriers with your ex-
boss, but if there's any way you can salvage the relationship, perhaps they
could at least reinstate the credit to you on the site. You aren't going to
win this one, but at least you could put the site on your resume.

------
cperciva
_During the 2 weeks I was an employee, I built the company a website to
showcase this townhome community it is developing._

Ok, so... during the time that you were an employee, you were told to do work;
you did it; and your employer owns the work you did.

What did you think was going to happen?

~~~
indiejade
Are you actually endorsing property management companies?

I worked as a temp secretary under "employee" status. I built the website on
my own time, under my company status. Two separate things.

~~~
RiderOfGiraffes
You don't understand employment law. This is nothing to do with property
management companies, it's everything to do with the fact that you were
employed by them at the time you built this.

Whether or not you did it on your own time is largely irrelevant. It's related
to their business, you were employed by them (under default contract) and
hence, by law, it probably belongs to them.

You goofed, it seems to be your fault, and you won't get any more advice or
comment if you rant and shout at us for telling you the truth.

~~~
davidw
In California, companies don't automatically get everything you do on your own
time.

However, it appears he already handed it over, so I don't think there's a lot
that can be done, and especially not without talking to a laywer. Never
deliver stuff without a contract.

------
davidw
Talk to a lawyer? Not much else to say - only a lawyer will be able to look at
your contract, examine the situation, and tell you if you have grounds to do
anything.

~~~
indiejade
Unfortunately, the guy who hired me _is_ a lawyer. I thought he was
trustworthy, but when he discovered my disgust with the real estate industry,
he went all out to attack me. And there is no contract. . . hello being taken
advantage of yet again!

~~~
davidw
> Unfortunately, the guy who hired me is a lawyer.

"Talk to a lawyer" means "enquire with a lawyer about the possibility of them
taking on your case". Presumably not the one that you feel owes you.

------
radu_floricica
What RiderOfGiraffes said so far is what I also know about the subject. To
summarize:

\- Worked produced while employed as a programmer belongs to the employer.
"Signature from a painting" doesn't apply: they have not only ownership but
authorship, too.

You have two ways to beat this, and both depend on the specific law where you
worked and the specific employment contract you signed:

\- First, whether you were hired as a programmer or not. This could be a big
deal, but you need to dig into the text of the law or talk to a (specialized)
lawyer.

\- Second, whether work done outside official working hours is yours or
theirs. It could be either way, but it's definitely written somewhere (law
and/or contract).

You're not the first to stumble on this issue, but unfortunately here you'll
find mostly hackers, less lawyers. When you look for a lawyer though make sure
he knows about IP and employment law.

------
indiejade
I'm extremely talented and adaptable. As "secretary" I endured the pain of
answering telephones and routing calls. Whether or not I worked on this web
site in or out of official "work hours" is irrelevant. I did work on this site
mostly away from my official "work hours," answering the damn telephone.

The entire site was developed on my personal server, before being exposed to
this Evil property management company, and my site is entirely wholesome. The
changed link is not so much. I'm still begging for help; how much do I have to
beg?

~~~
RiderOfGiraffes

      > I'm extremely talented and adaptable.
    

I have no reason to doubt that.

    
    
      > As "secretary" I endured the pain of answering
      > telephones and routing calls.
    

As a technical person who has occasionally been called upon to do this sort of
work, I know how difficult it can be, especially when dealing with the general
public.

    
    
      > Whether or not I worked on this web site in
      > or out of official "work hours" is irrelevant.
    

Sadly, I think you'll find that the law takes a different point of view, and
if you _did_ do _any_ of this work during the time being paid for, you are on
very, very difficult ground.

    
    
      > I did work on this site mostly away from my
      > official "work hours,"
    

"Mostly" is unlikely to be good enough.

    
    
      > The entire site was developed on my personal server,
      > before being exposed to this Evil property management
      > company, and my site is entirely wholesome.
    

So the question remains, how has it ended up under their control? Did they
wget and upload a copy? Can you prove that? Does the site contain anything
that you can prove is yours?

    
    
      > I'm still begging for help;
      > how much do I have to beg?
    

I suspect you've been given the best advice you're going to get from here. You
have two basic options. Either take your lumps and walk away having learned
something about employment law, evil employers, and not giving things away
before you've discussed and agreed payment terms, or ...

Get yourself a lawyer. Do lots of homework, compile your evidence, read about
employment law in your area, then take advantage of the free hour initial
consultation that many of them offer. Make a compelling case. If you can't
convince them then you'll have to walk away. Otherwise you will have some
professional advice on your side.

Alternatively, what help do you want us to give?

~~~
roundsquare
IANAL....

A few bits and pieces of information to collect before you talk to the lawyer.
_This list is far from complete._ Someone with more knowledge can add to this
list of fix it, just a way to get your started.

Do you have any correspondence with them? Does any of it show/indicate/imply
that they "stole" you work.

How were you employed? Do you have any sort of contract? Do you have a copy of
it? Any follow up questions to the contract asked via email?

How were you being paid? Was it by the hour, by the day, a lump sum for the
two weeks? If it was by the hour, did you work on the website during the time
you were working as a secretary? If it was by the day or lump sum, was there
anything in a contract that specified the number of hours or the times you
would be working each day? If so, did you work on the website during those
hours?

Did they ever ask you to work on the website? Why did you even do it? Were you
just bored during work and decided to give it a shot?

When they asked you to transfer it to their server, what did they say?
Anything in email? Can you get your hands on the email (legally!)?

Do you still have the server with your original work? Can you show that it
predates the website that went up? How similar is it to the one on your server
(aside from the missing signature)? Side note: I'd suggest not touching the
work on your server till you talk to a lawyer. Any change on the timestamps
might suggest foul play... even if you can show its not I would think its best
not to do anything.

Also, I would not suggest putting the answers to these questions up on HN. I
don't know if it will hurt or not, but if you put stuff up in public, it might
lead to further problems.

------
TeHCrAzY
Been there, done that, lived with the mistake. Would all the stress, emotion
and distraction of pushing further be worth it in the end? I'd just call it a
learning experience (and a loss), toss the whole thing into history and move
on with more interesting things.

------
indiejade
<http://www.willowvillagesquare.com> is the site I developed from scratch. My
company name has been removed and replaced with "Radio Homes, LLC". . .

------
wolfgang
Get a lawyer. Good luck!

------
indiejade
Sexism. That's what this basically boils down to. . . Evil Sexism. Hire the
girl as a secretary, rape her of her talents, and steal her credit. WTF.

~~~
allenbrunson
you know, i can understand that you are upset. but blaming this on 'sexism' is
pretty laughable. i suspect that there isn't a single one of us male tech
workers who hasn't been screwed over once or twice. especially those of us who
have been around the block a time or two.

part of dealing with adversity is managing your own feelings. yours have
gotten away from you right now, and it's causing you to act irrationally.
first you had only one problem: some company you were working for didn't act
in good faith. now you've got an additional problem: your emotions are
clouding your judgement. if you keep acting like this, you could easily make
this a _far_ worse problem than it already is.

you don't have much control over how the people at the realty company behave.
but you have _absolute_ control over your own feelings. that's the _first_
thing you should be working on.

