
Hacker School Soylent - CesareBorgia
http://www.cookingfor20.com/2013/06/18/hacker-school-soylent-recipe/
======
camdykeman
This mix is completely devoid of BCAAs. Soy protein has no branch chain amino
acids - meaning it completely lacks THE fundamental building blocks used in
building all bodily tissue.

Look more into different kinds of protein. You might also want to do this for
your carbs. Suggesting that brown sugar is a good way to "top up" our carb
load is terrible advice - all cane sugars are simple sugars, meaning they jack
up your glycemic index and then crash you after. Complex carbs have a
completely different rate and method of metabolism.

Please don't offer this as an option to people until you've done some
substantial (read minimal) research. At least Rhinehart’s project is presented
as an experiment and not a hobby-kit. Theres an ethical responsibility
involved in projects like this that the OP is blatently neglecting.

~~~
axb
Soy is a complete protein. It contains all three BCAAs: leucine, isoleucine,
and valine.

~~~
camdykeman
Yeah, I tried to edit the "completely" out of my phrasing almost immediately
but comments had already been left so I couldn't.

To clarify, soy is a complete protein. What I meant was that the levels of
BCAAs in soy are relatively low - especially when only taking in ~80g of total
protein / day as the recipe suggests. This is why many longterm
vegetarians/vegans often still have to supplement, dispite a high-soy diet.
Soy protein is composed of about 18% BCAAs and is fast to metabolise,
especially when isolated and diluted in liquid. Furthermore, without solid
food in your stomach, certain enzymes are never released by your body's GI so
metabolism is left almost entirely to your kidneys.

~~~
axb
I'm a long term vegan and I've never had to supplement. Plus 80g is on the
high end, though obviously it depends on activity level.

The CDC recommends 56g daily for males 19 and up. Out of your daily calories
somewhere between 10-35% should be from protein.
[http://www.cdc.gov/nutrition/everyone/basics/protein.html](http://www.cdc.gov/nutrition/everyone/basics/protein.html)

That being said, you're correct that it isn't good to rely on one source of
protein.

~~~
camdykeman
It may vary with age.

I have two aunts and an uncle, all of whome were vegetarians for over 15 years
and then were advised by their doctors to either supplement regularly or go
back to eating some meat, simply due to protein deficiency and muscle
attrophy, even though they're cyclists and hikers and just generally active
people.

Personal circumstance definitely matters too. I work out regularly and over
the past 6 years or so I've found recovery to be most difficult, long, and
painful if I dont hit my goal of at least 1g of protein per lb of body weight,
daily, from variable sources for continuous breakdown.

------
run4yourlives
I really don't understand this Soylent nonsense:

1\. I like food. The smell, experience and taste. Why in god's name would I
eat powder to save myself the "hassle" of eating food? That's like promoting
adoption as a method of avoiding the "hassle" of having sex.

2\. Why the hell would you associate the brand of a product that you believe
is healthy with a movie that is about feeding dead people back to us? That's
the first thing I think about when I hear the word Soylent - that "Soylent
Green is people!" Yum! Let me rush right out and get me some of that.

To me personally, Soylent is the very antithesis of the idea of living this
short life I have. With like 40% of people too damn fat for their own good, I
don't get how anyone sees a positive outcome for them.

~~~
camdykeman
Its not about whether you "like food" or not.

• Not everyone has access to proper ingredients/tools/knowledge that are
required for maintaining a proper diet.

• The vast majority of food is perishable and does not
transport/keep/distribute well.

• Lots of people like food too much and overindulge.

Your analogy of sex would be more appropriate if you made it analogous to
sleep.

Many people out there love to sleep. But I don't think anyone would argue that
sleeping is a "good" or "efficient" use of time, nor do I think anyone would
be opposed to providing more or better sleep to those who currently struggle
with it.

Soylet is flawed, but subjectively arguing that Soylent is stupid because you
like to stuff your face makes you as ignorant as those "40% of people too damn
fat for their own good" that you so readily attack, it just means you have a
better control mechanism.

Stop trolling.

~~~
run4yourlives
Stop Trolling?

 _Not everyone has access to proper ingredients /tools/knowledge that are
required for maintaining a proper diet. _

Actually, everyone does have this. Whether they choose to use it is another
story. I've yet to meet a person on this planet though that doesn't know that
you can't survive on chocolate and potato chips. The stomach cramps are a
pretty good clue.

 _The vast majority of food is perishable and does not transport
/keep/distribute well_

Thankfully, over the last 20,000 years we've learned to live of the things
around us, like animals and plants. I don't understand this argument. There is
no requirement for food to be distributed over vast distances and times. The
fact that we choose to do this is a societal choice.

 _Lots of people like food too much and overindulge._

So? The already have things like Slimfast for these people.

 _But I don 't think anyone would argue that sleeping is a "good" or
"efficient" use of time_

Life is about living, not being efficient. However you choose to spend your
time is the best use of your time. There is no race to win.

 _nor do I think anyone would be opposed to providing more or better sleep to
those who currently struggle with it._

Are you honestly suggesting that Soylent is _better_ for someone than a proper
meal? You better have a pretty long list of peer reviewed research to back
that statement up if you are.

 _subjectively arguing that Soylent is stupid because you like to stuff your
face_

Enjoying food is not "stuffing your face". Perhaps if this is what your
relationship with food is I can see the appeal. That's abnormal though.

~~~
trcollinson
Wow, I'm sorry but do you really believe this statement: "Actually, everyone
does have this. Whether they choose to use it is another story. I've yet to
meet a person on this planet though that doesn't know that you can't survive
on chocolate and potato chips. The stomach cramps are a pretty good clue."

Are you trying to say you have not met any person, ever, who does not have the
money or ability to find good, wholesome foods? There is an entire world
outside of the US, with a number of countries having significant economic and
food shortages. There are a number of people who live on fair less than
"chocolate and potato chips".

I have no idea whether this recipe is a good idea or not. I believe it should
be tested and peer reviewed by professionals. However, creating a less
expensive, highly nutritious, complete food product that is shelf stable and
easily transported would save 10's, maybe 100's, of millions of lives. You
sound very short sided here.

~~~
run4yourlives
I'd love to respond, and have, but it seems these days HN doesn't want me to
say too much, and for the second time in a week has automatically killed my
comment.

~~~
pbreit
Maybe you should try to make better sense than just being overly critical and
insulting?

~~~
run4yourlives
I'm curious as to how I'm being insulting when the other commenter was the one
calling me a troll.

Not pumping the latest SV (or YC backed, for that matter) fad is not being
"overly critical and insulting".

Stop drinking the Kool Aid without thinking.

~~~
DanBC
You and Camdykeman should re-read the HN guide for new users pages.

Things like this:

> Stop drinking the Kool Aid without thinking.

Are a good example of what not to say.

------
zhemao
I really don't understand Soylent. Do people really hate eating so much?
Eating is one of the greatest joys of human existence. I understand that
people have other things to do, but are you really so busy you can't sit down
to enjoy a good meal?

~~~
tankbot
It's not that people hate eating, not at all, it's just inconvenient in many
ways. Something like Soylent solves the problem of convenience and allows a
person to take in nutrients while remaining productive.

It's not for every meal. You'll still want to go have dinner with friends or
family, but during the day it would be nice to chug a glass of this and keep
working; hands clean.

~~~
derekp7
So this is different than Slimfast -- how? From what I understand, Slimfast is
pretty close to a meal replacement. Or is this intended to be in the same
category?

~~~
guizzy
Slimfast and other similar meal replacements (like Ensure) are not really
balanced for normal, active people. They're meant for people who want to diet
or are unable to eat solid food.

~~~
DanBC
> [...] meal replacements (like Ensure) are not really balanced for normal,
> active people. They're meant for people who [...] are unable to eat solid
> food.

Ensure (etc) are aimed at medical uses. That's because most people find the
idea of liquid feeds weird.

But if you want to live on liquid food there's nothing to stop you using
Ensure, even if you're a fit healthy active person.

------
jack-r-abbit
This is the first I'm hearing that "soylent" is "an open-source food
movement". I thought is was one guy that tried some stuff and now is starting
to build a start-up around it. It also seems weird that what is labeled as the
_flagship “distro”_ of this so-called open-source movement is not actually
open-source. So now I'm confused. Is this just a wording issue I'm confused
about? Are we using "open-source" for everything now?

~~~
eclipxe
Just 20-somethings with too much time on their hands and no clue trying to be
'food hackers' in the midst of a gigantic bubble. Nothing to see here. Move
along.

~~~
joshstrange
I am 22 but in fact I don't have enough time on my hands which is the exact
reason I am trying Soylent. Trying to work my day job and my side project
leave me very little time and Soylent is offering a cheap, fast, easy method
to consume the needed nutrients everyday. I'm not sure what you have against
it.

------
adamwong246
So I just wanted to shamelessly self promote something I've been working on.

[http://soylog-staging.herokuapp.com/recipes/1](http://soylog-
staging.herokuapp.com/recipes/1)

This is my RoR apps that I was developing, but which has recently lapsed into
inactivity, which allows you to create, modify and fork recipes in a very
similar way to github. It will also (soon) allow you to track your usage,
supplies and health. But for now, the project is on standby.

~~~
adamwong246
And it's crashing. Damn, hold on.

~~~
adamwong246
it's back up now

------
speeder
I see the guy dismissing the dangers of Soy hormones...

Well, beside making chickens get ready to be killed much faster (a farmer I
talked claimed that with normal rations his chicken took 4 months to be able
to be killed, with soy rations, you could sell them to be killed after 40
days), I DO tested avoiding Soy like the plague, and see if it had any effect,
and it had (including I did some testosterone blood testing to check).

Also, I think eating "industrial" food is a very fast way to miss important
nutrients we don't know much yet about, but are present in our daily normal
food.

But I get why someone would wish to do that, sometimes I feel tempted too,
specially because cooking all my food (with SO help even) on Sunday takes a
long time (4, 5 hours... mostly result of having shitty kitchen), and eating
food while on my PC at night is not much easy... And I hate washing dishes.

~~~
dismiss21x
Organic soy? Or GMO Soy?

Please post your analysis about the effects of soy - I'm interested.

My own research on the subject shows that the research of male soy consumption
being harmful is ambiguous, but mostly proven to not be harmful. Wikipedia has
a discussion on the academic research on this as well, if you want a casual
glance.

------
DanBC
The article mentions, many times, the other soylent company. It's true, you
can wait for them to ship. But if you're desperate to try a liquid feed there
are many brands already in existence. These are produced by multinational
companies in quality environments with known, tested, ingredients.

Ensure is one well known brand. Fortisip is another.

This recipe seems to be carefully worked out - they show the working and at
least have some links to proper research. And they're not making extravagant
claims.

~~~
colinshark
I think the difference here is that the goal is more ambitious (100% diet
replacement). Ensure is explicitly a dietary supplement. The marketing, cost,
flavor, and nutrient profile reflect that.

It's like wanting to enter a high end auto race and you just buy a sports car
off the lot. It will be expensive and slow. The fast cars are custom built
because the market is small and the requirements are unique.

~~~
DanBC
Ensure can be a meal replacement. It is a complete food. It is one of the
products used to force feed people who are on hunger strike (and also
anorexics detained under section of the mental health act in English
psychiatric hospitals).

I'm not sure what you mean by the cost, flavour, and nutrient profile. It's a
complete food. If you want more calories you use Ensure plus. If you need more
protein you use the high protein product. If you want savory versions you use
one of the savory varieties - here's chicken
([http://www.chemistdirect.co.uk/ensure-plus-savoury-
chicken_1...](http://www.chemistdirect.co.uk/ensure-plus-savoury-
chicken_1_177904.html)).

The reason Ensure is sweet or highly flavoured is to encourage people to eat -
these people are ill and need the nutrition.

A person eating only Ensure is not going to be any iller than someone eating
either 'official Soylent' or 'open source Soylent' \- and probably not as ill,
because Ensure is created by people who know what they're doing, using quality
assured ingredients and sealed in suitable packaging. This is important for
Soylent to work on - I hope they include good packaging.

All the existing products tell you not to survive on a liquid diet without
medical supervision. I take that be be a big sign that living on liquid feed
is sub-optimal and needs to be done cautiously. Other people say it's a sign
of an industry that can be disrupted.

My posts in this thread are trying quite hard to be constructive. I admit I
find it difficult because I have strongly negative opinions about some of the
Soylent product.

~~~
fudged71
>one of the products used to force feed people who are on hunger strike

Whoa, pardon my ignorance... got a link?

~~~
ValentineC
I got curious: [http://www.examiner.com/article/guant-namo-hunger-strike-
to-...](http://www.examiner.com/article/guant-namo-hunger-strike-to-expose-
ensure-as-a-health-hazard)

> the government’s so-called act of kindness toward the Guantánamo prisoners
> is not just the gift of being force-fed, but forcefully fed with none other
> than Abbott Laboratories’ enteral formula, Ensure.

It's just one article but Ensure doesn't sound like a complete meal
replacement.

~~~
DanBC
Ensure is a complete meal replacement.

([http://abbottnutrition.com/brands/products/ensure](http://abbottnutrition.com/brands/products/ensure))

> For interim sole-source nutrition.

If you're tube-feeding someone you might want one of the more medical versions
such as Jevity
([http://abbottnutrition.com/brands/products/jevity-1-cal](http://abbottnutrition.com/brands/products/jevity-1-cal))

------
jonathanjaeger
"...soon I wouldn’t be in Boston to benefit from the group’s joint purchases
of 50-pound sacks of maltodextrin."

Everybody seems to be harping on the issue that they like eating food, so why
replace it. I'd love to have a great on-the-go shake that's better than meal
replacement alternatives, however all this emphasis on maltodextrin as the
main carb source makes me reconsider ever buying these Soylent, or similar,
products.

~~~
DanBC
> I'd love to have a great on-the-go shake that's better than meal replacement
> alternatives,

What are meal replacement alternatives? (Things like Ensure or slimfast? or
something else?)

What would make Soylent or OSSoylent better than meal replacement
alternatives?

~~~
jonathanjaeger
Well best case scenario I would go to the trouble to get out a blender and
make a shake with ingredients that I think are optimal: oats, banana, natural
peanut butter, whey protein, or a number of other ingredients that cover my
nutritional needs in "shake" form. If I'm in a hurry I've picked up meal
replacements from the store, but most have sugar alcohols, sugar, or other
processed ingredients that are fine once but you don't want all your meals
like that.

------
speedyrev
Or you could try eating a healthy meal.

~~~
zachalexander
I've done that many times, and cooked healthy meals for a living for two years
(I mean, click around the blog). There is no contradiction between the two : )

------
orenbarzilai
So who is going to open the first branch of fast food soylent chain?

~~~
lifeformed
A restaurant is overkill, how about just a vending machine? You could put
quite a markup on them (like $5 a bottle) and people would buy them for the
time savings.

~~~
DanBC
Walgreens sells Ensure.
([http://www.walgreens.com/search/results.jsp?Ntt=ensure&x=-18...](http://www.walgreens.com/search/results.jsp?Ntt=ensure&x=-188&y=-174))

A six pack costs $8.50 ([http://www.walgreens.com/store/c/ensure-nutrition-
shakes-liq...](http://www.walgreens.com/store/c/ensure-nutrition-shakes-
liquid-6-pack-rich-dark-chocolate/ID=prod5877679-product)). Each bottle is one
serving, and contains 250 kCalories.
([http://ensure.com/products/ensure](http://ensure.com/products/ensure))

Here's a list of the Walgreens locations in SF.
([http://www.walgreens.com/storelocator/result.jsp?oTrk=1&_req...](http://www.walgreens.com/storelocator/result.jsp?oTrk=1&_requestid=41699))

~~~
dpcx
Have you ever actually drank Ensure? I like them. But I need at least 2,
sometimes 3, to actually feel full. That's still $4 or so for a meal.

~~~
DanBC
Yes. I think they're revolting. I wouldn't be able to live on them.

I didn't search for the cheapest option, so maybe the cost could come down a
bit? I don't know if the other products make you feel fuller?

You're right about it being an expensive way to live.

------
bitsweet
you lost me at brown sugar.

~~~
zachalexander
Why? I'm actually pretty anti-sugar, and was opposed to Rob's formulations for
a long time because he was using straight maltodextrin for all his carbs (200
g). But 25 g of sugar per meal, with tons of protein, fat, and fiber,
dramatically reduces the effect on blood sugar compared to drinking Coke or
eating candy.

------
fudged71
Literally drinking the kool-aid.

------
freeasinfree
"I’m putting this and future recipes on GitHub, and when I get a chance I’ll
add data on individual ingredients and nutrients, probably as Ruby hashes and
JSON objects."

Why?

Why does everything have to be treated like code?

~~~
zachalexander
Who said everything had to be treated like code? I just think recipes benefit
from version control, plus I plan to put other stuff in that repo eventually
(like Ruby scripts to help you develop your own mixes).

------
Alex3917
As omnivores, what's best for our health is eating a highly varied and
changing diet. This is the exact opposite. Considering the cure for cancer is
basically fresh vegetables, fruits, and fungi, it's not too hard to figure out
what's going to happen in the long run.

~~~
j_col
> Considering the cure for cancer is basically fresh vegetables, fruits, and
> fungi...

I've met vegetarians with cancer. I'm pretty certain it's not that simple.

~~~
doktrin
I can't speak to the parents 'cure for cancer' claim, but it's worth noting
that 'vegetarian' really only means a diet without meat.

It's quite possible to be a vegetarian without consuming any more fresh fruits
and vegetables than that found in a conventional diet.

