
Nile shipwreck discovery proves Herodotus right - longdefeat
https://www.theguardian.com/science/2019/mar/17/nile-shipwreck-herodotus-archaeologists-thonis-heraclion
======
dstroot
One of the main points of the article was that although Herodotus described
what he saw know one could turn his words into a mental picture. In other
words until we actually found a wreck and could observe how it was built did
we come to understand that Herodotus’ description was accurate.

BUT THEY DONT PUT A PICTURE OR DIAGRAM IN THE ARTICLE.

They pulled a “Herodotus” on us and I am pissed.

~~~
shakna
Thankfully the paper [0] has a ton of diagrams and photos.

[0] [https://www.um.es/cepoat/arqueologiasubacuatica/wp-
content/u...](https://www.um.es/cepoat/arqueologiasubacuatica/wp-
content/uploads/2017/01/A_new_type_of_construction_evidenced_by.pdf)

------
stalled
previous publication about this shipwreck by the same author, with
illustrations:

    
    
      Alexander Belov (2014)
    
      A New Type of Construction Evidenced by Ship 17 of Thonis-Heracleion
    

[https://www.academia.edu/4452101/A_new_type_of_construction_...](https://www.academia.edu/4452101/A_new_type_of_construction_evidenced_by_Ship_17_of_Heracleion-
Thonis) [https://www.um.es/cepoat/arqueologiasubacuatica/wp-
content/u...](https://www.um.es/cepoat/arqueologiasubacuatica/wp-
content/uploads/2017/01/A_new_type_of_construction_evidenced_by.pdf)

~~~
tejtm
'download with facebook" OR "download with google"

An astounding set of choices with which to transfer TCP/IP packets if I do say
so myself.

cough sci-hub has doi 10.1111/1095-9270.12078 cough

~~~
TaylorAlexander
I don’t like everything about Richard Stallman but damn was his wiriting (in
the 90’s!) about this trend prescient.

[http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/right-to-
read.html](http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/right-to-read.html)

------
herodotus
Reading Herodotus' "The Histories" was life altering for me - I highly
recomend it - but you MUST read a quality translation. I read the translation
by Robin Waterfield. There are other good translations. What you should not do
is download any old version you find online. Bad translations ruin the book.

~~~
everdrive
I just read the Robin Waterfield myself, and I found it absolutely wonderful.
It was the first ancient writing I've read in my adult life, and I was shocked
by how clear and easy to understand it was. I know there are arguments for
preserving the original prose of a text, however reading Waterfield's
translation, it's clear that Herodotus wanted to be understood. He spoke
clearly, and often caveated his speech to as to be clear to the reader.

I can grab some verbatim excerpts if anyone's interested, but his
clarification when telling of Darius of child ("But he didn't say Darius,
because no one knew he was called Darius yet") and then his explanation of a
metaphor in Getae blew my mind. ("They probably don't mean the northern lands
are literally covered in feathers, and this was likely just a metaphor for
snow.") This is how a precise, scientifically-minded modern writer would
communicate.

I had always always equated ancient writing with the Old Testament, or some of
the more metaphor-laden prose for old plays (Oedipus) that were pretty opaque
to my young mind. But reading Waterfield's translation of Herodotus was a
different experience altogether: every sentence is easy to understand, and you
can sympathize strongly with Herodotus and the ancient peoples he talks about:
there's quite a bit of talent and intelligence, but not much concrete
information. And, if you read the Histories without a reference nearby, then
you're on equal footing with Herodotus himself.

~~~
Udik
To add to your comment, this is one of the examples I still remember from
reading parts of the Histories:

"As for Libya [Africa, apparently], we know it to be washed on all sides by
the sea, except where it is attached to Asia. This discovery was first made by
Necos, the Egyptian king, who on desisting from the canal which he had begun
between the Nile and the Arabian gulf, sent to sea a number of ships manned by
Phoenicians, with orders to make for the Pillars of Hercules [the strait of
Gibraltar], and return to Egypt through them, and by the Mediterranean. The
Phoenicians took their departure from Egypt by way of the Erythraean sea, and
so sailed into the southern ocean. When autumn came, they went ashore,
wherever they might happen to be, and having sown a tract of land with corn,
waited until the grain was fit to cut. Having reaped it, they again set sail;
and thus it came to pass that two whole years went by, and it was not till the
third year that they doubled the Pillars of Hercules, and made good their
voyage home. _On their return, they declared- I for my part do not believe
them, but perhaps others may- that in sailing round Libya they had the sun
upon their right hand._ In this way was the extent of Libya first discovered."

So Herodotus passes on us a piece of information he doesn't understand or
believe in, but that seems to prove that the circumnavigation of Africa
actually happened because the sailors, having passed the equator, kept seeing
the sun on their right side at midday- since they were moving clockwise around
the continent. Shivers :)

~~~
kwelstr
"...and having sown a tract of land with corn, waited until the grain was fit
to cut."

It has to be a grain other than corn (maize), since that one came from the
Americas.

~~~
amvalo
Corn was actually a generic term.

~~~
cygx
It still is in British English (though this is apparently beginning to change?
Bloody Americans :p).

~~~
kwhitefoot
It's generic in Norwegian too, although spelled with a k.

------
curtis
This reminded me of the Uluburun shipwreck[1]. This ship was built using
"pegged mortise-and-tenon joints"[2]. It's not entirely clear how the Nile
ship's construction was different -- as another commenter mentioned, it would
have been nice if they'd included a diagram.

[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uluburun_shipwreck](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uluburun_shipwreck)

[2] [https://nauticalarch.org/projects/uluburun-late-bronze-
age-s...](https://nauticalarch.org/projects/uluburun-late-bronze-age-
shipwreck-excavation/)

~~~
cryptonector
Page 11 of [https://www.um.es/cepoat/arqueologiasubacuatica/wp-
content/u...](https://www.um.es/cepoat/arqueologiasubacuatica/wp-
content/uploads/2017/01/A_new_type_of_construction_evidenced_by.pdf) has a
very nice diagram.

~~~
afterburner
Also top of page 7 for a close up of a tenon rib.

------
contingencies
See also
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tessarakonteres](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tessarakonteres)
and
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thalamegos](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thalamegos)

------
LeanderK
is there no illustration what it may have looked like? I have no idea what
they are talking about but it sounds interesting...

~~~
cryptonector
[https://www.um.es/cepoat/arqueologiasubacuatica/wp-
content/u...](https://www.um.es/cepoat/arqueologiasubacuatica/wp-
content/uploads/2017/01/A_new_type_of_construction_evidenced_by.pdf)

page 11

------
boulos
For all of those who missed the picture:

[https://www.theguardian.com/science/2019/mar/17/nile-
shipwre...](https://www.theguardian.com/science/2019/mar/17/nile-shipwreck-
herodotus-archaeologists-thonis-heraclion#img-2)

though I still find it confusing (I think it’s just the bottom of the hull).

~~~
cryptonector
See page 11 of [https://www.um.es/cepoat/arqueologiasubacuatica/wp-
content/u...](https://www.um.es/cepoat/arqueologiasubacuatica/wp-
content/uploads/2017/01/A_new_type_of_construction_evidenced_by.pdf)

------
wl
If anyone is interested in seeing other artifacts from this "dig", the
Minneapolis Institute of Art has a special exhibit entitled "Egypt's Sunken
Cities" through April 14th of this year. One Egyptologist I know saw the
exhibit in St. Louis and says it's the most spectacular ancient Egyptian
exhibit he's ever seen.

------
sunstone
One of those occasions where a clear picture really would be worth a thousand
words.

~~~
cryptonector
Page 11 of: [https://www.um.es/cepoat/arqueologiasubacuatica/wp-
content/u...](https://www.um.es/cepoat/arqueologiasubacuatica/wp-
content/uploads/2017/01/A_new_type_of_construction_evidenced_by.pdf)

------
codazoda
I really enjoy this type of article; technical facts about history. I'm also
reminded that I miss similar stories from National Geohraphic. Finally, I'm
impressed by the method of monetization The Guardian has opted to use while I
loathe the paywall option others are pushing these days.

I just added Nation Geographic to the "Idle" bookmark folder I use to catch up
on interesting facts during short breaks from my work. Now I'm off to
contribute to The Guardian.

~~~
frosted-flakes
Just out of interest, how many people actually contribute to The Guardian? Is
depending on reader donations a sustainable business model? Apart from
Wikipedia, are there other publications that also follow this approach?

I was contemplating paying them a couple bucks, because I am quite impressed
with the quality of their publication—at least the parts I've read. The plea
for support at the end is almost as long as the article itself, and it's very
convincing:

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caprese
Aside "well that 2500 yr old manuscript happened to mention this type of ship"
why is this significant?

