
The compelling case for working less - bigben00763
http://www.bbc.com/capital/story/20171204-the-compelling-case-for-working-a-lot-less
======
spyckie2
I'm convinced that our decision for how much effort to exert on work is not
governed by the rational part of our brain. It's part primal - fear of
insecurity and belonging to a social structure - part ego - accomplishment as
confirmation of existence and your salary as a concrete number to compare
favorably to others - and part culture and habit.

I also think overwork is a byproduct of a globally connected society. Humans
are happy if they are relatively well off compared to what they know. With
smaller societies, we know less and thus expect less from ourselves and our
situations. But it becomes more difficult to remain this way as small
societies get replaced with large social networks.

As a small example, you can be having a great life one day and feel woefully
underpaid the next, and the only thing that has changed is your knowledge that
in the valley, people get paid twice the amount you do in the UK.

I believe we need a generational understanding, acceptance, and appropriation
of some of the unintended side effects of modern society.

~~~
kough
> Humans are happy if they are relatively well off compared to what they know.

This is super true. I've been congratulating myself all month on my new job,
paying me BIG BUCKS, compared to my friends. Well, just found out an old
friend of mine also found a new job, getting payed literally twice as much as
me. Now I'm in a funk and it's irrational and stupid but I can't help but look
at the same number in a totally different way.

~~~
Spearchucker
Age fixes that. Used to feel much the same. Now (approaching 50) I just
couldn't give a shit anymore. A friend I've grown distant from over the last 4
years or so bought a 911 GT3 RS last year. And suddenly I hear from him. And I
marvel at the waste. Purchases like that are meaningful on only two days - the
day you buy it, and the day you sell it. I think a mid-20's me might've liked
a car like that for the sex it could get me.

Making more money than me is great. Really. If making more money than me is
important to you I KNOW I'm having more fun than you are. Somehow, somewhere
in the last 5 years or so I've become content. I scratch-build model cars now
in my spare time, and that's where I compete - with myself. Crazy fulfilling.

~~~
funnelsgun
I'd argue that a 911 GT3 RS is not a waste. I would love to own a GT3, let
alone a GT3 RS. Most GT3 RS owners are motorsport lovers, and use their GT3 RS
for its true purpose. Motorsport and track events are also a great place to
make new friends, as are organized road trips to incredible places in the
world such as the PetrolHead tours.

~~~
Spearchucker
I've done the motorsport thing. Drove a '79 M1 around the Nordschleife once.
And yes, that experience has value to me, but knowing I did and another hasn't
doesn't make me better, or them worse. It just... is. And I'm glad the M1
wasn't mine.

~~~
funnelsgun
I was at the Nurburgring this summer! I loved it so much I’m going to go back
next summer.

Of course, owners are entitled to do whatever they please with their cars -
but that doesn’t make it any less disappointing to see a GT3 RS, or any other
track car, spend it’s life in start stop traffic in London.

------
Chinjut
There is a frequent pattern which concerns me of primarily justifying the
desire for reduced work hours in terms of the alleged increase in productivity
this will bring about (by allowing recharging, preventing burnout, etc.).

I worry that this already concedes too much. This allows for just as much
stressful dominance of work over the rest of life, and shame over any
deviation from this script, as maximizes productivity.

Even if my shorter-work-hours productivity doesn't match my longer-work-hours
productivity, I'd still prefer shorter-work-hours, with no guilt over having
those preferences. My goal in life is not to optimize everything I do for
maximum benefit of my employer; I have my own priorities and trade-offs to
worry about.

~~~
Joeri
The libertarian argument would be that if government didn’t regulate working
hours the number of hours worked vs the amount of pay would be negotiated by
the labor market and you would be free to choose to work fewer hours in
exchange for somewhat reduced pay.

The socialist counter-argument would be that under such a system people with
few employment options or low skills would be forced to work more hours for
the same pay and that it’s the government’s job to regulate a reduction in
work hours to improve quality of life.

Neither argument is wrong, in practice you need both systems for different
people, but the nature of politics, especially in the U.S., requires a binary
choice the net result of which is that everyone works more hours.

~~~
konschubert
I don't think it's illegal, in any western country, to work part time.

So we HAVE the option to negotiate fewer hours, no?

~~~
imgabe
It is difficult to work part time and get benefits such as health insurance.
Since this is a necessity for most people there is no practical option to work
part time.

~~~
smileysteve
To emphasize the contrast to the parent comment on libertarianism and free
market. Government does not dictate that a company can not pay for benefits
such as health insurance for part time workers.

~~~
BeetleB
Not sure why you're getting downvoted. I'm more on the socialist spectrum
myself, but even I see what you and the higher comment is saying.

~~~
mikestew
The commentor is not technically wrong, but practically so. Government might
not dictate, but insurance companies will.

------
creep
Doing nothing does not literally mean to do nothing. Strolling through the
streets is meditative. Apart from mental rest, staring out the window gives
processing time for the subconscious. I'm a student, and I feel uncomfortable
with the expectation I am under to perform constantly, to "use my potential"
"constructively". And often I have this expectation of myself. But I get my
best ideas from just lying awake in bed in the middle of the day. Inspiration
seems to appear out of nowhere. Of course this effect increases with more
"rigorous" meditation.

I decided a long time ago that I would never enter into the proper workforce,
as most people think of the term. The plan is to go tenure-track and teach the
classes I loved to learn. Basically stay in school indefinitely from this
point on. I'd rather learn by myself in my own home, but there are benefits
here and I "gotta pay the bills".

~~~
nfd
I'm glad you've got the surplus cash for however many years of school, then.

~~~
RhodesianHunter
It's not much, but they pay you a stipend while you're getting your PhD.

~~~
Ultimatt
LOL! PhD you get time to think sure. About the same thing for 3+ years. Hit
rate for going insane vs becoming a relaxed meditative thinker isn't as
balanced as you'd hope.

~~~
goldfeld
What's wrong with thinking about the same problem for 3 years?

------
ThomPete
When me and my former collague now partner left Square after 4 1/2 to start a
new design consultancy, we decided on a couple of things which have changed
our lifes for the better.

We wanted to be able to walk to our office.

We work 3 first days of the week.

We Have meetings and checkins on Thursday.

And use Friday for various products we are developing or just for time to
think.

We dont do project prices only daily or weekly and mostly retainer deals.

We are pretty expensive to hire which means mostly series a round startups or
larger organizations like Tata.

Our clients dont pay for any overhead on our end and get way better results
out of it and we get the time to build up our organization properly.

~~~
jamiegreen
If you ever want to expand to the UK, let me know! It sounds like you have a
really well considered working routine.

------
StavrosK
A few years ago, I decided I didn't want to work 40-hour weeks any more, and
asked my employer to switch to 32 (four-day weeks), with a 20% pay cut.
Satisfaction-wise, it's been fantastic, as four days isn't long enough that
you'll get tired by the week, and three free days is amazing to recharge.

Unfortunately, I've found that it's rather career-limiting, as people don't
care as much if a lowly developer works four-day weeks, but for more senior
positions nobody will accept that. I have a choice between fulfilling life and
fulfilling career, and I think I'm leaning towards the former.

~~~
j0hnml
How long had you been working there before you asked? And was there any push
back? I'm sure this will vary from company to company, but I am curious to
hear your case.

~~~
ndh2
A more important factor is the country/legislation. In Germany you're entitled
by law to work part time (after 6 months of employment)[, unless there are
important reasons against this, which an employer would need to prove in
court].

------
mimo84
How many of us are reading this article while "at work"? Just me? I don't
think so. I open HackerNews four or five times a day and I read some of the
articles. Right now I am in a company where I have to work at least 43 hours a
week. Needless to say that I don't feel rested as I used to and my
productivity is way lower compared to the past and I get distracted longer and
more often than before.

~~~
godelski
I've never understood required hours. Because sometimes 20 hrs in a week is a
lot. Other times 60 is no time at all. Those weeks where 20 are a lot I am
extremely distracted and the next day I am not excited for work. The weeks
where 60 is no time, most of that is productive and I want to go to work.
Judging work by number of hours just seems like a poor metric.

~~~
gerbilly
>I've never understood required hours.

They want you there to answer questions.

Workplaces value availability because it's too difficult to design coherent
systems and to document them. Instead of that boring old stuff, in the modern
workplace, we go fast and break things (or never get them fully working in the
first place).

Then we expect workers to be always around so they can be reached on slack
when there is a problem.

~~~
godelski
Yeah, but with modern technology everyone is almost always reachable.

~~~
s73ver_
I don't put company email or company chat (slack) on my phone.

~~~
godelski
Would you if it gave you more time flexibility? And could set it to only chats
for you, not group?

~~~
s73ver_
Not at all. When I leave the office, I want to leave work concerns along with
it. My off time is for me, not my employer.

------
b0rsuk
One of older articles linked from HN said the very name "stress" is wrong,
because it conjures incorrect expectations. That you can forever endure a
certain level of pressure, but will break after a certain point.

The term "stress" comes from the world of physics. Instead, the article
argued, stress resistance is like a muscle. To develop it, you need to
exercise it a bit, then STOP. As someone who made working out his hobby, I
know rest is an essential part of training. Newbies often utter nonsense like
"I will do pushups 7 days a week". It works for the first few days, then you
get overtraining and your performance falls below normal.

~~~
Swizec
And yet professional athletes can train for several hours every day. Sometimes
twice.

Doing a couple pushups every day won’t kill ya.

Being stressed every day however might.

~~~
amval
Professional athletes sleep A LOT, way more than a normal person. The need for
rest doesn't exclude them, not at all.

Another difference between professional athletes and normal people is the
likelihood of being on drugs that improve performance.

You can do push ups every day, but it's useless.

~~~
freddie_mercury
> Professional athletes sleep A LOT, way more than a normal person.

To elaborate on this...

Lebron James and Roger Federer have both said they sleep 12 hours a day.

Usain Bolt, Venus Williams, Maria Sharapova and Steve Nash sleep up to 10
hours per day.

Most NBA players take naps every game day, sometimes for as long as 3 hours.

That said, not all pro athletes sleep a ton. Tiger Woods said he only sleeps 5
hours a night, for instance. But it seems pretty clear that most of them are
sleeping way more than the average office drone.

~~~
moccachino
I can believe that. Not to belittle Tiger Woods or anything, but golf is not a
sport in the same way that basketball or triathlon is a sport.

EDIT: This was poorly worded. Golf is a sport, but I don't know that a
professional golfer is an athlete any more than a professional carpenter is an
athlete. A professional basketball player is an athlete however.

~~~
stevenwoo
I've heard it said golf is probably on the high end of athletism of what might
be termed skill sports like darts, billards, bowling. Lots of eye hand
coordination required, some specific strength/power requirements, no aerobic
fitness/reaction time requirement.

------
gerhardi
When you’re actually good at something you do, dont give 100% in all the time.
Get a feeling of what your clients/boss/etc. need to be happy and try to
exceed it marginally.

\- Be capable of 100 in normal working hours

\- Be expected to deliver 70

\- Deliver 80

This provides also a good buffer for errors and other unexpected stuff. And
reduces stress.

~~~
j7ake
Is this how any great scientist, athlete, artist produce their works ? I
highly doubt they took your advice.

If it's just about making money however, then sure that seems like a sound
strategy.

~~~
gerhardi
I think that trained athletes actually know better of their limits and when to
not push for the maximum intensity than “regular office worker” in their
corresponding field. The fatigue and risks of near future subpar performance
are more concrete than with office work.

Also in any field, it ofcourse requires time, work and experience to become
actually good enough to give yourself some slack.

~~~
j7ake
I agree athletes train to maximise their performance on the games that matter.

I'm not sure what the equivalent is for the office worker.

~~~
JetSpiegel
When the boss is watching...

------
arca_vorago
I'm so thankful I grew up with retired people who came from cowboys and
farmers in the mountains. After living a slow life, and especially after
experiencing combat, I've never really had a problem seeing right through the
rat race. Its funny how near death experiences put things in perspective.

I often think of a comment by Noam Chomsky, about how the industrial
revolution promised so much to the people, but many saw it for what it was,
little better than chattel slavery, the only difference being you get released
to go home at night.

The main problem I've run into is how ingrained the Stockholm syndrome is in
people who seem to define themselves by their work. I've been on a break since
my last burnout as a senior sysadmin, pursuing a data science degree and doing
side projects. I can see the judgement in others when I explain that though...
but I don't really care, I feel my pursuits are worthwhile and fulfilling.

People also tend to think your work defines you or themselves when it doesn't
and shouldn't. For example, people who don't know me might think I'm "just a
sysadmin", but I'm a combat vet who has aspirations of a presidential run some
day, and I've spent many years forgoing normal social life in my free time to
study the big picture of geopolitics and geostrategy . I don't know if I'll
ever be ready for such a huge responsibility, but I'm working on it.

My heroes are men like George Washington and the autodidacts of history, but
these days I far too often hear how its impossible to do that anymore.

I disagree. Why artificially limit ourselves like that? We should work on
freeing people up to pursue more lofty goals, or maybe I'm still a naive
idealist who places too much weight in the principles of the enlightenment.

~~~
kpennell
I enjoyed this comment.

------
gajju3588
Disclaimer: Haven't read the full article, but got the gist.

I have a counterpoint to this. I am from India where if you work normally you
will be spending your life in conditions which are not very healthy for you
and your family. Your home will be small and in a society where neighbourhood
will be lacking in basic facilities like sanitation, security etc. You might
remain happy if you have great friends and a supporting family. But to improve
your living standards and getting a healthy lifestyle will ask you for a
decent pay which will force you to work more than your peers. And as this is
India, the workforce is generally cheap and very competitive so you have to be
really good and beat a lot of other people to climb the ladder. And I dare say
you can't do that by just doing 'less'.

~~~
alkonaut
The point of these "we all work too much" articles only applies to advanced
economies where pretty much everyone _could_ work less, and still live a very
very comfortable life. Yet we don't. There is nothing illogical about working
an extra hour every day when the reward is tangible (as in your example). For
me however the difference between working 6 hours and 8 every day is very
small in terms of reward and enormous in terms of well being.

------
jesperlang
Being self employed working from home (coding), I recently started to do some
timetracking to see how I spend my work. I used pomodoro technique with 25
minute slots and 5 min breaks in between. I set up an initial goal of doind 10
per day or about 5 hours, sounds very modest to me! Also, I set a rule that I
have to stop working when I felt mentally drained, you know when you just feel
sluggish at the end of a normal working day.

The thing was I struggled very hard to reach 10 and found a nice balance at
around 8 slots of focused work per day (4 hours, ncluding coding and
administrative tasks). So a 25 hour work week suggested in the article sounds
reasonable to me.

------
b0rsuk
You don't have to convince employees, who are eager to try it and unwind. How
do you convince _employers_ ? Surely not by pointing out THEY don't work as
much as we do.

~~~
twblalock
My managers, and their managers, have worked longer hours than me at every job
I've ever had, including retail jobs in high school, academia in grad school,
and now software engineering.

Once you hit the C-Suite you don't even think about work-life balance, because
your work is your entire life. I know people like that, who have enough money
to retire in their 40s and live in luxury without ever working again, yet they
don't want to stop working.

------
mcguire
" _Holidays also can literally pay off. One study of more than 5,000 full-time
American workers found that people who took fewer than 10 of their paid
holiday days a year had a little more than a one-in-three chance of getting a
pay rise or a bonus over three years. People who took more than 10 days? A two
in three chance._ "

I'm reminded of the best sysadmin I have ever known. You'd see him at weekly
staff meetings, but most of the time he'd be in his office, probably playing
nethack. He was part of the furniture.

Then he'd go on vacation and all hell would break loose. I figured that was
his way of letting everyone know he still existed.

------
hectorr1
I like this article. I hate cherry picked statistics.

For instance, average GDP per worker is much higher in Norway than the U.S.
This proves that large numbers over large numbers may in fact be smaller than
small numbers over small numbers. Especially if the small numerator (Norway
GDP) is relatively large because it's dominated by a single factor (oil
wealth).

------
saas_sam
Bad, misleading stats. This is why you cannot take even legitimate news
sources like BBC at face-value:

"Even on a global level, there is no clear correlation between a country’s
productivity and average working hours. With a 38.6-hour work week, for
example, the average US employee works 4.6 hours a week longer than a
Norwegian. But by GDP, Norway’s workers contribute the equivalent of $78.70
per hour – compared to the US’s $69.60."

This paragraph links to this article on 'no clear correlation' but the article
itself says the exact OPPOSITE--that there's no correlation between increased
vacation and greater productivity: [https://www.hongkiat.com/blog/vacation-
time-vs-productivity/](https://www.hongkiat.com/blog/vacation-time-vs-
productivity/)

Not only that, but while Norway is indeed #1 of GDP per hour worked, USA is #3
and countries like UK and Canada are a distant #12 and #13, suggesting this
obviously does NOT have to do with 'working less':
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_\(PPP\)_per_hour_worked)

------
alexasmyths
"When I moved to Rome from Washington, DC, one sight struck me more than any
ancient column or grand basilica: people doing nothing."

Yes. It's like a big small town. It's quite refreshing - though it can be
frustrating if you want to get something done.

~~~
GVIrish
My friends who have visited or lived in Italy say the same thing. I kinda
experience the same thing with Latin America.

It's relaxing to be in a place that isn't all about the rat race, but it can
be irritating when you want to get up early and do stuff, or when you're
dealing with the bureaucracy, or you're trying to plan anything. As with most
things, it's a trade off.

------
LoonyBalloony
No time to protest if you have to be at work all day.

------
mishkovski
>Even so, the apparent belief in balancing hard work with il dolce far niente,
the sweetness of doing nothing, always struck me. After all, doing nothing
appears to be the opposite of being productive. And productivity, whether
creative, intellectual or industrial, is the ultimate use of our time.

No it is not. Good use of my time is whatever I decide is good use of my time.
And speaking about this in plural(our time) and absolutes(ultimate) is even
worse.

------
baxtr
Well, look at Germany. 4 weeks of holidays required by law, additionally 10-15
days of public holidays, and 35-40h work weeks. Productive as hell

------
tpkj
The Parable of the Mexican Fisherman

[http://renewablewealth.com/the-parable-of-the-mexican-
fisher...](http://renewablewealth.com/the-parable-of-the-mexican-fisherman/)

------
xutopia
This is the reason I'm considering going back to consulting. I could work less
hours yet create lots more value and have plenty of time to rest, read and
have healthy activities.

------
paulus_magnus2
I'd be happy to see full time employment re-defined as 20h/week.

On a good day there's 4 productive hours in me. Cut my salary in half but
release some of my time so I can live a little.

. At least for certain occupations / productive superstars who can do full
day's of work in 4h.

Upside would be

\- 20h a week to invest into family, hobby & entertainment.

\- "more jobs" are created ...

\- limit supply of labour solving unemployment (no need for UBI anymore?)

\- Salaries would creep back up somewhat due to higher productivity per hour

------
nnq
An interesting related thought I had recently was: _why are we optimizing the
technology we develop to help / increase the productivity of, those who work
more/harder?_

...and not the other way around? It seems like everywhere: even in software,
languages and tools that increase the productivity of _" lazier"_ people (aka
more "contemplative" or "think a lot, do a little" type of people) are
basically _always abandoned by industry_ after the "transplantable" ideas are
extracted out of them (Lisp-s, lots of other meta-programming tools like
OMeta, lots of functional languages with advanced type systems, lots of ideas
for smarter-IDEs, smarter-debuggers etc. - basically what we've chosen to use
as professionals is like 20-years behind what "can be done"). And same is true
for most consumer facing technologies - _nooooobody_ wants to develop device
or apps that _minimize_ user engangement! When this is exactly what the "think
a lot, do a little"-people would need to have _their_ output increased without
requiring them to work harder.

Also when it comes to online classes and all. There's _very, very few_ content
designed to "let it seep in while you have a beer on the beach"... very few
"high density but low focus-requirements" educational content. So to make any
meaningful progress at learning something, you have to _actively make a
schedule with hours-lengths chunked of focused time at regular intervals_...
aka "work hard"! But I know from personal experience that _this is not the
only way to learn stuff!!!_ Many of the things I know I've "soaked into my
brain" in pretty low-engagement ways that may have taken years to learn what
others can learn in weeks of concentrated effort, but... it's just a different
feel to it. This kind of knowledge was acquired effortlessly and _I can use it
effortlessly_ \- I just load up a problem into my mind, and my subconscious
just presents me with the solution, no need to actively think about it! And
this is just amazing, you get that "god / the-universe downloaded the solution
into your brain" kind of high.

Also, at the other end of the spectrum, we don't seem to recognize that a
large percent of the population has too low IQs to be able to do any
meaningful work in the current world. And yet _basically all_ mind-
augmentation technologies are targeted at people that are _already smart._
Nobody's building a "Siri that could help mentally challenged people work as
nuclear engineers", when that could very well work.

Shouldn't we maybe _use technology to actively fight against Price 's law
instead?_

Shouldn't we focus on developing technology for _achieving more_ through
_doing LESS?_ "Give" less, but "get more in return?" What's even the point of
striving for anything else?!

    
    
        </ dangerous idea>

~~~
majewsky
> nooooobody wants to develop device or apps that minimize user engangement

I'm going to take a guess and say that many developers would like to develop
those apps. But marketing/sales/C-level says otherwise.

~~~
nnq
Developers want the $$$ too... so they too follow whatever generates revenue.
It's more like the psychology of incentives got screwed: we've taught people
to prefer subscriptions instead of one-time-payments, and you're
psychologically biased to pay a more expensive subscription for something you
spend a lot of time using. You're not going to pay $50/month for a tool you
use 3 times a week for 10 minutes no matter how useful it is.

Othoh, if the price was "license + 1 year free upgrades" you'd be quite likely
to cough up a $600 license, because you'll think more in terms of outcome
value and not time spent. But though luck, the company selling the
subscription thingie would _be valued more._ So you're not going to do that.

Once you do this, you'll not want to waste too much of your user's time, as
they'll choose a more efficient competitor... but _you 're not going to want
to take too little of the user's time or attention either!_ Now he's
subconsciously biased into thinking in terms of price/time-unit and you need
to play this game.

------
leaf_mc
I wrote a blog post on this: [https://medium.com/leaf-software/working-too-
much-please-sto...](https://medium.com/leaf-software/working-too-much-please-
stop-8dc0ac3ec179)

The reaction I've had is pretty surprising. A lot of people seem to think it's
too difficult for them work less.

------
tomcam
I just like working and creating things.

~~~
now_l93
Me too. Have you noticed that when you don't take breaks, that you create
worse things? If not, ask the people around you if they notice.

~~~
tomcam
True words. And I do have to remind myself to take breaks

------
k__
Most of my friends work less than 40h a week, only those who don't get paid
well work full-time.

Even a few who don't get much money try to get along with it by living in a
shared flat before starting to work full-time.

------
anotheryou
Any tips on how to go less than full-time as a project manager? Going in to
consultancy? Shifting to Product?

