
Client cheques that I rejected - janeboo
https://m.oursky.com/client-cheques-that-i-rejected-7426f392d5e9
======
wpietri
One of the best things about being independent: You can't tell _everybody_ to
fuck off, but you can tell _anybody_ to fuck off. That's clearly great because
then you don't end up doing dumb, pointless work because some executive said
so.

But the subtly great part is that clients get better results. They know they
don't own you, that you have other options. So they have to take your advice
seriously. They may not follow it, but they'll at least listen. Which,
counterintuitively, means you'll have a lot less desire to actually tell
people to fuck off than you would in a regular job.

~~~
HumanDrivenDev
If you're a permanent employer, you usually can't flat out refuse, true. But I
still think we have a responsibility as professionals to tell people why their
ideas are shit - politely.

 _management:_ "I want an app that does A to solve business problem B"

 _programmer:_ "If you want to solve B, you're better off with an app that
does C. If you do A you'll run into problems X, Y, and Z. I can do A but i
strongly advise against it"

Far too many programmers just go ahead and do the first idea and then it
inevitably falls apart, because they're too scared to act like professionals
and give their own professional recommendations.

~~~
cosmie
I think one of the more fundamental issues is the programmers access to that
conversation itself. I’ve seen this scenario be far more common when
developers try to get business context :

Management: “I want an app that does A.”

Programmer: “Alrighty. Can you give me more details on why you want that app
and what you’re hoping to achieve?”

Management: “No. Now how long will it take to get App A out the door?
Executive Foo said he wanted app A, so we need to give it to him ASAP.”

 _Programmer feels satisfies they’ve at least tried, and any screwups are
managements fault. Scrambles to get App A out the door. Management comes back
with feedback_

Manager: “What is this? This isn’t what we asked for. It doesn’t even remotely
address Business Problem B and now Executive Foo is on the warpath after
championing this project and looking like a fool!”

 _Management finds a way to convince Executive Foo it was all the overpaid,
useless developers that screwed up and reinforces the stereotype of IT being
an untrustworthy and frustrating blackhole of a cost center. Management saves
face and they pay a consultant to do it. The programmer is left dizzied by the
sudden political flak they were just blindsided by._

~~~
HumanDrivenDev
Ha! I'll take your word for it. Makes me think I would not last long at all in
that kind of workplace, as I'd go right over managers head to executive foo
with evidence if he pulled that on me.

~~~
cosmie
I've only worked in a place like that twice. Once (a large company), I didn't
last long. In the other (a growing company), the blame-shifting and credit-
stealing politics and the people who brought them in didn't last long.

In that situation, it's really a lose-lose for the developer. If they go over
their manager's head, they've just made a very unfortunate enemy. And as the
manager has more rapport and access to the executive, it's likely going to
wind up fruitless as the manager finagles doubt into your evidence (by leaning
on that existing relationship and handwaving misunderstandings and referencing
non-existent verbal conversations into the points of contention that you
raised).

And if they _don 't_ go over the manager's head, they now have an internal
reputation for incompetence that'll negatively impact the rest of their time
at that employer. So they're screwed either way.

At that point it's better to just leave rather than make waves. If you make
waves they can come back to drown you later on during your career or job
search. If you leave with little ado it stays more compartmentalized to that
toxic environment.

~~~
HumanDrivenDev
I'm glad I haven't experienced anything quite like that. Your decision to just
get out is probably the best one.

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wslh
Great article. I have similar experiences in my market and many times I ended
up pointing to a Crunchbase page to defend the budget. It is not by chance
that companies like Uber and Spotify raised more than one billion. Even if the
customer will spend only a fraction in software they are not understanding how
much capital they need for their product.

I am not saying that you cannot compete with Uber in a smarter way but if you
only ask about an app then you are forgetting all the stuff that happens in
the back office.

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gwbas1c
Learning to tell idea people to pound sand was the hardest, and most expensive
lesson, in my career.

The crux of this article is that it's important to quickly identify and reject
idea people. They just suck on your energy and waste your time going nowhere.

~~~
optimuspaul
What do you mean by "idea people"? Because I consider myself an idea person,
but I also make things and get things done. I'm afraid you are throwing the
good out with the bad... unless you have some other idea of what idea people
are... and maybe a better name for them that is less inclusive.

~~~
combatentropy
"Ideas are just a multiplier of execution,"
[https://sivers.org/multiply](https://sivers.org/multiply)

~~~
andrewflnr
What a breath of fresh air. I get just as tired of the "ideas are worthless"
people. This perfectly expresses why you need both.

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BeetleB
The photos in the article provided no value to the content. I know the common
wisdom to get lots of page hits is to include fairly random pictures, but I do
tire of them. To the point that I find myself unconsciously discounting the
_content_ because my brain automatically assumes the article is more about
becoming more popular than providing useful content (and may have suppressed
content that would be unpopular).

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iopuy
"you want a clone for eBay/Facebook/Amazon? You realize they have teams of
many thousands of people working on code bases over 15 years old right? And
you think a single person, me, is going to be able to replicate that in 3
months?"

~~~
craigsmansion
"you want a clone for eBay/Facebook/Amazon? You realize they have teams of
many thousands of people working on code bases over 15 years old right? And
you think a single person, me, is going to be able to replicate that in 3
months?"

"You can use Lisp if you want to."

"...I'll have the POC on your desk by next week."

~~~
user5994461
And it will take hundreds of people over years to go from the POC to an
equivalent product.

~~~
HumanDrivenDev
Because they'll do a costly re-write in python? :P

~~~
user5994461
Because it took hundreds of good developers to find one who was experienced
and was willing to work in lisp. /s

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HumanDrivenDev
I have to wonder why they wrote this article.

I mean, it's a well written article, I enjoyed reading it. Great for a target
audience of developers.

But what will potential clients read when they see this? A company disclosing
details of (possibly confidential?) meetings, talking about how stupid their
ideas were. They don't name companies but they do give some very specific
details - and HK isn't a huge market.

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antonkm
> I’ll eventually ask, “Which platform do you like to build on to start with?”

> One client answer was: “All — Android, iOS and web. And I want the mobile
> apps in native to make sure the responsiveness of the app is good.”

Maybe I'm misreading, but the client wanted a Yelpish kind of app. The right
play, in my book, would be convincing the client that a React Native app would
do. This is a really easy sell since that is actually what the client need.
Maybe the author's team aren't yet familiar with RN.

React Native is super snappy and is a great choice for MVPs. It's easy to
develop, the reusability is really high between platforms and the price tag is
usually quite low in comparison.

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intrasight
My opinion is that any client that is serious, is putting together a team, has
a budget, and has real prospective customers is something I can get on board
with. I personally don't have to like the idea or think that it's going to
find a wider audience. Pretty much any billion dollar unicorn I would have
looked at their elevator pitch and said "I don't like the idea and I don't
think you are going to succeed".

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a_c
"We want a [insert big name here] clone, how long does it take." is, in my
experience, a good indicator to move on.

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dboreham
In our consultancy we refer to this kind of situation by similarity to the Mad
Man "Jai alai" episode (S3:E4)

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mankash666
Why is an app agency judging the client's business model. If what the client
is asking for is legal, and if the agency can deliver, I'd think it a win-win
to make it happen.

Specifically, they should have cloned Uber for their client, and let the
markets decide.

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jimrandomh
> It’s not cost-effective to build the app on all the platforms at once
> because it takes 3 times more effort to make a small change. We should start
> with just one and invest into others when the concept is proven to be
> successful.”

There are multiple development toolsets that will let you do this, without
tripling your effort. There are tradeoffs involved, but I think this request
was more reasonable than this article presents it as.

~~~
ksenzee
The article specifies that the customer didn't want a cross-platform
framework: "I want the mobile apps in native to make sure the responsiveness
of the app is good."

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gnicholas
Note: this is not about cheques that were rejected from clients — it’s about
clients that were rejected.

~~~
matte_black
Agreed, I very much doubt any of these clients would have put up any serious
money upfront. My experience has always been they look for alternative deals
or financing such as “equity” or “revenue share”.

~~~
kevin_b_er
Or they offer "exposure"

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edraferi
Thoughtful article highlighting common pitfalls of rookie app ideas.

