
E-Ink Monitors: Ready for Prime Time? - toymachine
https://cloudconfusing.com/2018/09/18/e-ink-monitors-ready-for-prime-time/
======
coder543
> It turns out that staring at back-lit computer monitors for 40+ hours a week
> might not be the best thing for you.

Source? Light is still hitting your retinas, whether it comes from reflection
or from a backlight.

I really enjoy E-Ink displays, but not because of perceived health benefits
from reflected light. I enjoy how readable they are under sunlight, how they
consume zero energy to show a static image, and how this enables them to
always show content even if the device has no power.

It's simply not necessary to use unsourced health claims to justify a great
technology like E-Ink.

~~~
thomas
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17724995](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17724995)
Was a good thread

~~~
fermienrico
I don't see anything related to reflectivity vs. backlight illumination. Most
of the discussion is around the wavelength of light (blue) and its effects.

~~~
coder543
does light have any other intrinsic properties besides spectrum/wavelengths
and intensity (EDIT: properties that vary based on the light source alone)? It
doesn't matter if it came from a backlight or reflection, the electromagnetic
waves are still electromagnetic waves. If the color spectrum is unpleasant,
it's possible to use Night Shift or other features to shift the spectrum. If
the intensity is unpleasant, just turn down the brightness.

~~~
jseliger
This is actually a reply to @Romed:

 _OLED displays have a different problem; they have so much noise at low
brightness that the image falls apart. Still, I think a monochrome OLED
display is what the person who wrote this article actually wants. It would
have better performance in every respect to E-Ink, and it doesn 't sound like
their application requires E-Ink's low power._

My understanding too is that OLEDs can have "true black" pixels that emit no
light at all. For "dark mode" style screens, this is a huge benefit, because
the majority of the screen may simply be turned off. Conventional LCD screens
still send current to each pixel, but the "black" is simply tuned to a dark
frequency, rather than being altogether off.

~~~
romed
Yes, an unpowered LED emits no light. But an OLED that's barely on, for
example at uniform 1% grey looks like crap because of the noise. People
describe this as a "texture" or "banding". It's the consequence of trying to
drive millions of individual semiconductor devices to the same emissive power.
At higher brightness you can't notice the noise.

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rubicon33
I would LOVE if E-Ink monitors became a thing. Spending all day indoors sucks.
I'd love to be able to work outside in the sun for an hour or two.

~~~
dogma1138
Lenovo has released a Yoga convertible with an E-ink display.

[https://www.lenovo.com/gb/en/tablets/windows-tablets/yoga-
bo...](https://www.lenovo.com/gb/en/tablets/windows-tablets/yoga-book-series-
windows/Yoga-Book-C930/p/ZA3S0055GB)

~~~
lelf
Interesting.

Basically two displays: primary IPS and secondary E-ink. But keyboard is…
virtual, you type on e-ink.

~~~
dogma1138
You don’t are not limited to typing on the e-Ink it can be used for to display
documents, to take handwritten notes etc.

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fermienrico
I wish Sharp Memory LCDs[1] were made in 20"\+ format. They're a hybrid
between LCDs and E-paper displays with extremely fast refresh rates and the
contrast is almost as good as ePaper displays.

I think monochrome displays would be fantastic for distraction-free coding or
reading.

What's interesting is that you just need to toggle VCOM signal either through
software or external source every 1-2 seconds for about 10ms. Therefore, you
can keep the content on the display's memory for years on a coin cell battery.

[1]
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eAoC818Mxy4](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eAoC818Mxy4)

~~~
rubicon33
Fascinating stuff. I wish this technology was available for computer monitor
usage. I'd love to try it out.

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adrianmonk
Tangentially, the article shows video playing through eInk, and its choppy yet
paper-like effect really reminds me of the animation style of the 1980s music
video "Take On Me" by the band a-ha:

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=djV11Xbc914](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=djV11Xbc914)

I'm not sure if I'd be able to use one of these monitors without constantly
thinking of that video.

~~~
rout39574
That's an additional advantage. :)

~~~
agumonkey
Outstanding for sure

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gambler
I'd pay a lot of money for a decent E Ink monitor. I don't need color or high
refresh rate. I do need it to "just work", be reliable and relatively big.

The second step would be software support so that I could leave images on the
screen when the computer is off.

Stuff mentioned in the article is interesting, but it sounds like the quality
is quite bad for all 3.

~~~
pasbesoin
There's been recent mention of the... Onyx Boox Max2, as Google refreshes my
memory.

It can be used as a display via a simple HDMI connection.

I read a few articles, and I'd like to try one, but I haven't convinced myself
to put down $800 .

Here's a googled link that my browser history says I've visited before:

[https://goodereader.com/blog/electronic-readers/onyx-boox-
ma...](https://goodereader.com/blog/electronic-readers/onyx-boox-
max2-pro-13-3-inch-e-reader-review)

P.S. As I asked at the time, does anyone know the/a source for the panel?
Although I guess the custom firmware and buttoned down access to same, may
make getting a raw panel a non-starter.

P.P.S. Duh. OP article mentions it. Anyway... still wondering where the panel
comes from.

~~~
yorwba
I searched for a teardown, but only found one of the Dasung Paperlike Pro
[https://kevzettler.com/2018/02/11/dasung-paperlike-pro-
teard...](https://kevzettler.com/2018/02/11/dasung-paperlike-pro-teardown) ,
but which helpfully links to a source for the panel.

The biggest display they have seems to be a 42" monochrome display for $2000
[https://shopkits.eink.com/product-category/e-ink-display-
mod...](https://shopkits.eink.com/product-category/e-ink-display-modules/15/)

~~~
pasbesoin
Thank you. At a first glance, that is an interesting/intriguing site.

Note that it's another $500 for the controller module they recommend. (I know,
I was asking after the Max2's raw panel. But in considering making one of the
ones on this site work.)

There's also a listing for a 31.2" panel capable of 4096 colors (per the
description). $2300.

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gbraad
I have the MaxCarta and Max2. I use the older model using network
connectivity, and the Max2 using HDMI. It is really a decent experience...
just the refresh rate is slow. I use it for writing and reading large
documents. And as concluded, since it is an Android device, it is
multifunctional.

It also shows that any decent Android tablet should be able to act as a
portable screen as Onyx does. It would make Android tablets a whole lot more
practical, without the trouble of using WiDi or Miracast

Note: the Max2 can also be used as a Wacom tablet with some software, which
makes it double duty and outperforming the Wacom Bamboo Slate I have. (They
share the same pens!!!)

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frou_dh
It's always going to be dodgy until the graphical OS you're running is aware
of what eInk is, and adapts the UI toolkit and general rendering to play to
eInk's strengths.

~~~
adrianmonk
This might be one of those situations where things have to move forward
imperfectly. First some people get eInk monitors, then OS developers see that
there are at least some real users and some concrete reason to believe there's
a payoff in supporting them.

Then decent software support will encourage more people to get eInk monitors,
and that will encourage OS developers to turn decent software support into
good software support.

A similar thing happened with SSDs. At first operating systems weren't TRIM-
aware, but people used SSDs anyway. IIRC, first device drivers got support to
send the TRIM command, then later filesystems got the ability to send the TRIM
command automatically, then flash-oriented filesystems were built and went
into wide(r) use.

~~~
rubicon33
My worry is that E-Ink Monitors will never reach the "minimum quality" point
at which they are adopted by a sufficient number of people to get the ball
rolling.

I don't suffer from any medical reason to use one, but, I would absolutely
purchase one this second (any pay a lot for it) if it worked well.
Unfortunately, what I've seen so far from the Dasung and the Onyx, isn't worth
$800. I just hope these companies have enough runway to continue improving the
product such that early adopters like myself, will jump in.

~~~
bryanrasmussen
What will cause it to be worth $800?

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glup
I feel like I've been looking into this every 6 months since the mid 2000's
and there's still little progress. I would be thrilled if someone made a 20"
\- 27"screen with a simple HDMI connection; I don't care about the refresh
rate.

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bruceb
I posted to ask last year asking why mid size and larger E-ink devices were so
expensive relative to 6inch readers.

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15787026](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15787026)

might be of interested to some.

~~~
DrJaws
The main reason is production costs. A single 13" screen is being sold to
manufacturers for over 350.

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Waterluvian
I would give up my code colouring for an e-ink monitor for coding. Such a
delightful possible future here.

~~~
atrilumen
I've been using these schemes in my terminal and editor for years now:

    
    
        base16-grayscale-dark
        base16-grayscale-light
    

<3

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stcredzero
A 40 Hz model is already down to $1000. We may be on the cusp of some kind of
sea change here. How insanely light could an E-Ink flatscreen monitor get? You
don't need a backlight, so the power requirements would be much smaller and
that would be a huge advantage to making something light. I could imagine an
updated version of a "Sunflower" iMac built using one. MacOS resembling a
magazine seems to be what Steve Jobs envisioned and what Apple is aiming for
right now. Could they be made in such a way as to resemble good sheet material
for acoustic exciters?

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zdkyGDqU7xA](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zdkyGDqU7xA)

------
nanomonkey
Looking forward to installing emacs on [http://fread.ink](http://fread.ink)
once that's possible.

~~~
mintplant
Is that project still alive? I don't see any activity in the past few months.

~~~
nanomonkey
Yes, as far as I know Juul is still working on it. It's pretty much just one
guy and life does get in the way of open source projects.

------
scirocco
And with Exeger e-ink devices will have eternal life :)

[http://www.exeger.com/](http://www.exeger.com/)

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pdq
These would make a great wristwatch, so you can get perpetual display of time
with virtually zero power, and should get long battery life.

~~~
Tharkun
I believe Nokia/Withings offers a fitness tracker with an eink display with a
watchface.

~~~
r3bl
That is correct. Nokia/Withings Steel HR on my hand contains a small,
surprisingly fast e-ink display (although low res).

They also have small, barely noticeable LED lights lighting the screen to be
visible during night. Much more pleasant way of checking the time during the
night than looking at a phone. And its battery lasts 2-3 weeks and charges in
two hours.

The screen isn't always on though, and only activates on a click from the
side.

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DrJaws
I have a max 2 since almost it was released and even if it can work as a
display, it isn't ideal

ghosting and a lower resolution needed to have a better refresh rate, kills a
lot of the charm.

imho, they can work but on a pretty niche way, but I wouldn't buy one just to
use it as a display.

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unicornporn
> E-Ink Monitors: Ready for Prime Time?

13.3" at $899. I guess that answers the question.

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kurthr
If the maximum size is 13.3" as shown here, then no... they are not ready for
prime time. That is big for a tablet or e-reader, but small for a laptop, and
tiny for something called a monitor (outside of a colo).

~~~
DrJaws
they are 4:3 ratio, so for a laptop is more than enough

~~~
kurthr
Well I haven't ever seen a laptop with 4:3 (1024x768?) although I loved my
ancient 20" 1280x1024 5:4 monitor and there are lots of smaller 3:2 surface-
like laptops. The 13.3" (and the tiny 12) still accounts for only 20% of the
2017 market, with 14.1-15.6 (and even larger) accounting for the remaining
30+50=80%.

This was about the market for Monitors though... not just displays in general
so this e-ink display just doesn't cover a significant portion of the market
outside of tablets or very small laptops. Typical monitor sizes are 19-34",
with the smaller "totable" 15.6-17" sizes accounting for <20% of the market.
13-14" aren't even listed as monitor sizes by the marketing groups like IHS or
Display Search.

~~~
DrJaws
this ereaders doesn't have 1024 or 1280, the eink resolution is 2200x1650

~~~
kurthr
Yes, I read the article. However, I have never seen a laptop use such a aspect
ratio even in the olden days, and I'm not sure manufacturers would choose to
now, because... These are high resolution low contrast reflective screens
limited to 13" which do not hit the current market diaginal/area expectations
for mainstream laptops, much less desktop monitors.

They are good for low power daylight operation and I'm sure there is a small
market for people who don't like backlights and emissive displays. I like my
kindle for books, but I also don't mind the backlight for indoor use. As
desktop monitors they have missed everything but the smallest niche.

Good luck if you really want to use one regularly as the writer says,"Based on
my research, particularly great e-ink monitor comparisons, these devices are
not ready for professional, daily use. They are laggy, have staining/ghosting
problems, and perhaps worst, are quite unreliable. It seems that the failure
rate on both of these devices is quite high and user happiness is quite low.
If e-ink is your only option (because of health reasons) then these might be a
savior, but short of that it seems like your best best is to wait for future
development in the space."

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utopcell
Seems like the Lenovo Yoga Book C930 would do the trick.

