
It now costs $350k a year to live a middle-class lifestyle in a big city - onetimemanytime
https://www.cnbc.com/2019/09/11/you-need-to-make-350000-a-year-to-live-a-middle-class-lifestyle-today-heres-why.html
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yocheckitdawg
Lmfao at this article, these people aren't middle class... $2450 a month
(30k!! a year) on child care because both are working?

$2000 a month (24k!! a year) on preschool to give their kid a leg up on going
to a $35k a year grade school & high school?!?

$70 per DAY on food because you can't be arsed cooking?

They factor in 8K for vacations and another 6K per year for date nights?!?

And then it ends with this stunner:

> According to the U.S. Census Bureau, less than 5% of households earn
> $350,000 or more a year.

> While $350,000 might sound like a lot of money, it’ll go quickly when you’re
> raising a family in an expensive city. We all deserve to live a middle-class
> lifestyle. Unfortunately, we’ve first got to sacrifice more than ever to get
> there today.

Uhhh if only 5% will achieve that level of income you might need to ask
yourself if it is really middle class....When people talk about "out of touch
coastal elites" this is the type of shit they're talking about.

~~~
garyiwu
The childcare figures are actually pretty in-line.

In our area (bay area suburbs), daycare for a 2-year-old is around $2000 a
month excluding any extra babysitting. Preschool for a 4-year-old is around
~$1800. I can see how within SF proper they might be higher.

~~~
sn9
"The childcare figures are actually pretty in-line" with one of the most
expensive and unrepresentative cities in the US.

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seem_2211
I don't doubt any of these expenses, and this hardly seems like a lavish
lifestyle... but at the same time, $38k in 401k contributions is hardly middle
class. Especially when the median _household income_ in the US is $59k per
year.

If you plug that $38k in 401k deductions, and then add say another $10k in
employer contribution, assuming you have two parents at age 30 who plan on
working for the next 35 years, and who have, to date contributed $10,000 total
to their 401k you end out with a $9.0m retirement fund at age 65, assuming a
7% annual growth rate. Going by the 4% withdrawal method you get a $360k
annual retirement income which seems a little high.

~~~
closetohome
Don't forget your $1.8 million middle-class house.

~~~
seem_2211
In SF that absolutely is a middle class house.

~~~
perl4ever
If you know something about SF, I'm curious - on a typical assessment of that
sort of house, how much of that is attributed to land, and how much to the
house (2br 1300 sq ft, the sort that would sell for <$180K in a normal city in
a wealthy coastal state)

Also, when people talk about the price of living in Manhattan, the obvious
response is - so don't live in Manhattan. Can't you work in the Bay Area
without living in SF proper?

~~~
seem_2211
Almost all of the value is the land.

RE: Cost of living, I dunno, part of the reason the cost of living in SF /
Manhattan is so high is that lots and lots of people make enough to be able to
afford it.

~~~
perl4ever
About land value, of course that is what one would assume, and what is often
claimed.

I thought the cost of living in Manhattan or other similar places was so high
because _people do other things than live there that are highly valuable_.
Which might be nature's way of telling you "don't live there".

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ebg13
AKA "Eating at restaurants every day and spending hundreds of dollars on new
clothes every month while employing someone else full time to watch your kids
gets expensive."

Spending $70/day on food is not normal middle class living. Go to the grocery
store once in a while.

> _The parents’ ultimate plan is to send both children to private grade
> school_

Are you kidding me?

~~~
zaroth
If you think you can eat out with a family of four for $70/day in the city,
you are sorely mistaken.

When I eat downtown with my family the bill is rarely below $100 with tax and
tip for dinner, and that’s a single meal, with no drinks (tap water), and no
dessert.

Even some place like B.GOOD (higher quality fast food) is going to be $50
unless it’s a “Kids eat Free” night.

~~~
yocheckitdawg
His point is that middle class families aren't eating out anywhere near that
much. They go to the grocery store, cook and eat at home.

~~~
zaroth
My point is a family of 4 can easily spend $50 at the grocery store for 12
meals in a day without being exorbitant.

And that’s assuming the two working adults are brown-bagging it at lunch every
day and not eating out lunch with team members at least a couple times a week.

So $70/day gives you room to eat out as a family maybe once a week, not daily.
(No way a family with a 2 and 4 year old are doing that, but that’s kinda
besides the point)

Of course there are people who claim they eat like a king for $5/day. And I
don’t doubt it’s possible, but I doubt it’s common for a middle class family
of 4 living in the city who are probably paying Amazon to deliver their
groceries.

~~~
perl4ever
I think it's reasonable to spend ~$11/person/day if you're mostly not cooking,
and not economizing, based on firsthand experience. I mean, I understand that
you can do math like "fast food meal costs $13, multiplied by 3, equals
$39/person/day". But it just doesn't seem to work out like that, so something
in your estimating logic is way off.

People's memories and estimates are often unreliable, but if you use one
credit card for everything and it tallies your spending on restaurants, that's
pretty definitive.

~~~
zaroth
$11 eating out, in a major US city, for the whole day? Breakfast, lunch, and
dinner? Did I read that wrong?

Breakfast at Flour (egg sandwich, and a late) is going to run you $12,
assuming you don’t buy that brownie for later. That salad at Sweetgreens is
$15. Just the salad. Juice is charging $14 for a 16oz protein shake. We
haven’t even made it to dinner yet.

~~~
perl4ever
Yes, I'm not disputing what a meal is going to cost, "major" city or not. For
instance, I had a sandwich, drink, and a cookie at a non-chain casual-not-
extremely-fast-food place, and it was about $16 with tip. If I get something
cheap, where there's no tipping, it's still probably going to be near $10. On
the weekend, sure, dinner for two might cost $100, never mind a large family.
Might be leftovers though.

My point is that doesn't mean you average three times a typical meal price per
day over a long period of time. And the reason I'm so sure is because I have
the records which show I don't.

Maybe it's just laziness/time constraints. I can't possibly get up early
enough every day to have a large meal, even if I could stomach it. And I only
get half an hour for lunch on workdays.

My point is the relationship of averages to salient data points. Like I
mentioned in my other post, it seems like I'm always going 40-60 mph, but my
trip computer says my average is a lot less, and the average is very
consistent no matter what kind of driving I seem to have been doing. Or,
another example is time estimates, where short tasks are consistently
underestimated, because it's human nature to ignore short delays/overhead.

------
jonahbenton
I didn't read the piece but suspect there is a conflation of "middle class"
with what might be better called "professional class"\- 2 working parents in
high end white color jobs in high demand locations in high demand cities who
tightly manage their time.

$350k is at the very low end of this professional class with multiple kids.
Kids, and proximity to good schools, get very expensive, very quickly.

Housing: properties that can fit families- but where kids need to share rooms-
in demand areas sell for $2M. Look it up. Mortgage on that is $10k/month.
Rents are equivalent.

Childcare: a babysitter off the books for one kid is minimum $20/hour. With
multiples, and a baby requiring full time attention, plan for $1k/week. Don't
forget the bonus.

Food: at Whole Paycheck, the only supermarket in high demand areas, with picky
kids, it's basically $5/person/meal. A 4-5 person family is $60-$75/day,
$2k/month. Meals out with the kids anywhere in that neighborhood are going to
be $20+ entree, $10+ appetizers, $10/dessert, $10/beer. Family of 4-5 can
easily get to $200, including tip. Twice a month and that's $6k/year.

So with just those "basics" you're already at $120k + $50k + $30k = $200k post
tax expenses, so $350k pretax. No private school, no vacations, no cell
phones, no savings, no incidentals.

Note that in the context of these areas, this "professional class" is
absolutely "middle class" in relative terms. "Upper class" in these areas will
be the numerous families with assets and incomes above $1M.

~~~
ebg13
> _with picky kids, it 's basically $5/person/meal_

Nit. Actually picky kids only want plain hot dogs and plain quesadillas and
plain spaghetti. The ingredient cost of feeding picky children is a few cents
per meal even after you add childrens' multivitamins and smoothies.

I think y'all have lost your minds on these food prices. $50 gets you two 16oz
steaks (two adults can each eat steak for lunch AND dinner with that) and 15
or 20 _pounds_ of fresh vegetables easy at whole foods in the 94107 zip code
according to Prime Now. And that's on top of the million servings of dry
grains you can buy for a dollar. $50 every day? You're killing me.

~~~
jonahbenton
Lol, happy to provide the entertainment.

Just to be more precise from an example I am _intimately_ familiar with-

* picky in this case means "specific"\- specific products or combinations of products are required to satisfy a given child's nutritional demands. One can bellow like the dad in Calvin and Hobbes- "if they're hungry enough they'll eat it"\- but that will be to no avail.

* actual individual serving sizes of these specific products are often at least $1, and combinations of those servings are needed on a per eating event basis.

* "snacking" means that it's more like there are 4-5 eating events of $3+ per day per kid

* packaging, portion sizes, product lifespan and pickiness mean that a lot of food- probably 40-50%- gets thrown away, either not eaten during a meal or not gotten to before it "goes bad."

From a recent daily trip that bled for $60:

* oat milk - $1+/serving for a wannabe vegetarian environmental activist

* quick cook oatmeal - $1/serving (and don't forget the cranberry raisins, also $1/serving)

* bagel - $1/serving

* cream cheese - $1/serving

* cut fruit - $5/serving (snack!)

* yogurt - .75/serving (cheap!)

* specific brand of peanut butter granola - $2/serving

* non-nut snack bars - $1/serving

The "whole" thing is insane.

~~~
ebg13
> * cut fruit - $5/serving (snack!)*

You know... If you buy a knife, you'll save a lot in the long run. It doesn't
even need to be a sharp knife.

> _quick cook oatmeal - $1 /serving_

Quaker oats costs $1 per pound, not per serving. Granulated sugar costs even
less.

I have similar comments about your other prices, but you probably get the
point.

[edit] Wait, no. One more. I have to.

> _cream cheese - $1 /serving_

365 Everyday Value, Whipped Cream Cheese, 8 oz Price: $1.79 ($0.22 / Ounce)

HOW MUCH CREAM CHEESE ARE YOU FEEDING YOUR KIDS? :)

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bsg75
"Live in s/big city/San Francisco/"

As this chart from the article, SF is an outlier, only bested by NYC:
[https://fm-static.cnbc.com/awsmedia/chart/2019/8/22/salary%2...](https://fm-
static.cnbc.com/awsmedia/chart/2019/8/22/salary%20required.1566490457180.png)

~~~
tomatotomato37
Surprised Philadelphia ranks so cheap; I was under the impression it had
prices similar to other New England cities like Boston or DC.

~~~
ebg13
Like every other BS "It costs this much" story, it depends on what specific
location you're looking at and how much you want to not deal with crime. In
Philadelphia you'll find three homes selling for $450k, $800k, and $1.2m on
the same gentrified block in Northern Liberties, and people will walk past you
on the sidewalk saying "I grew up here, but I can't afford to live here
anymore", and then there's
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philadelphia_Badlands](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philadelphia_Badlands)
and
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_Philadelphia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_Philadelphia)

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gamblor956
CNBC has a very upper class idea of what they think middle class life is like.
Weekly date nights, $6000/ year on Netflix or similar, $7800 annual vacations?
Most people canct afford any of those, let alone all 3 every year.

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s3r3nity
> While $350,000 might sound like a lot of money, it’ll go quickly when you’re
> raising a family in an expensive city. We all deserve to live a middle-class
> lifestyle. Unfortunately, we’ve first got to sacrifice more than ever to get
> there today.

Then don't live in a big city (read: SF, NYC). Not everyone should, nor
deserves, to live somewhere just because they want to.

Hell, even in some of the bigger ones, like Phoenix, you could buy a giant
home + drive to work in a Tesla for that type of salary.

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NTDF9
> A Bay Area Rapid Transit janitor who makes $234,000 plus $36,000 in benefits
> marries a Bay Area Rapid Transit elevator technician who makes over $250,000
> in salary and benefits. Together, they’d make well over $350,000.

What? This is unbelievable. But if true, makes us all contemplate our career
choices.

~~~
CapricornNoble
Seriously! I think I could move back to America, to a poop-stricken dump like
the Bay Area and repair elevators for a quarter-million dollar salary. Live in
a customized van or mobile home for 2 years, then take all that money and buy
real estate across SE Asia.

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vm2196
>Recommendations for a better life >If you’re one of the many families
struggling to get ahead in >an expensive city on a high salary, here are five
>suggestions:

>1\. Limit your household income up to $321,451 after all >deductions.

The solution is your money problems is to make less money. :facepalm:

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nyxtom
I learned a long time ago that food is the number one thing I foolishly spent
my money and wondered where all my expenses were going. Not much can be done
about the preschool costs (I feel the pain there), but the very least you can
do is create a food budget, go to the grocery store, meal-prep, and replace
common expensive things like coffee/smoothies and make them at home. After
about a few months of adjusting to new behavior constraints you start to
optimize and learn new habits that turn out to be more comfortable to work
with. (Bonus: I now enjoy cooking). If you still enjoy the odd day going out
somewhere to work, never leave home without a tumbler or some canteen of some
kind.

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thorwasdfasdf
Ok, these costs are a bit incorrect. The actual housing cost is much much much
higher: not just 4k, but roughly 16K (190K per year) per month for 2.8 million
dollar house where you need to pay just 38K per year property taxes. And if
you don't live on the penninsula or are willing to move into some high crime
areas, you can even find a house for less than 2 million dollars.

All the other costs are much higher than they need to be. You don't have to
spend 70$/day on food, even here in the bay area. If you're really smart with
money and eat a lot of oatmeal, beans, rice and onions, you can get your cost
down to less than 30$/day for a family of 4, even here in the bay area!
Vacations, aren't really needed - that's a luxury, same for clothes.

So, if you calculate it for real, you'll find the biggest costs by far are
housing and day care which account for about 70%+ of the budget.

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lappet
A Bart janitor makes $234,000 a year?! WOW

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lynchdt
2200 on food per month, utter nonsense. 380 on baby kit per month for children
in preschool? Nonsense.

Recently moved to SF with family of 4, combined income of about 130k less than
this and living well including private elementary schools and preschool.

Don't need a car here, even with a family.

We furnished our place with a bunch of stuff folk were giving away for free

We eat well, sometimes out.

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DrWumbo
I figured it out! It's an article designed to funnel traffic to the author's
blog site by using outliers (like the janitor) as clickbait. Other commenters
pointed out that this is partly absurd expectations of what middle class is
and partly the absurd reality of bubbles like SanFran.

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drKarl
I looked at the author's blog financial samurai and my impression was that all
articles, including this one, were designed to sell the idea of investing in
houses in what it calls the heartland of america with a crowdsourcing platform
the owner probably owns called fundrise.com

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devonkim
This almost seems like a hit piece that’d be written by my rural Appalachia
in-laws that cry out in amazement that I don’t get multiple acres and a water
supply for a $500k property instead of a studio apartment and believe that
everyone makes much more money just by moving to the city.

~~~
whenchamenia
It seems more like its written by bubble trapped millenials for each other.
But thanks for the xenophobia.

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bdcravens
Articles takes the cities with the most extreme living expenses, and tries to
say those costs are representative. Some of the "big cities" are smaller than
places like Houston and Dallas where you can live a middle-class lifestyle
very inexpensively.

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mvp
This seems incredible even to someone living quite comfortably in London for
far less. Are these figures for real?!

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madengr
Well the BART janitor makes the most. I guess you’d have to pay me that to
clean piss, shit, and used needles.

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phonethrowaway
utter nonsense

