

How to hack your brain - Part I: Sleep - symptic
http://dustincurtis.com/sleep.html

======
lutorm
Now, I'm certainly not an expert on sleep, but my current night reading just
happens to be "The Promise of Sleep" by Willam Dement, founder of the Stanford
sleep center and student of Kleitman, the discoverer of REM sleep. And this
article contradicts what he writes in so many ways. Here's what I took away
from the book:

Just as a start, the author got that thing about REM sleep being the only
sleep that matters _exactly backwards_. Depriving people of REM sleep has not
shown any effects on increasing sleep debt (ie feeling tired), it's the _non-
REM_ sleep that you need to not feel tired. (Which makes sense because in REM
sleep your brain is essentially awake.) What the purpose of REM sleep is, is
not known.

Furthermore, the idea that you can "train" yourself to need less sleep has no
basis in science. This does not mean there aren't a few people who have all
kinds of strange sleep issues, but for the majority of people there seems to
be no scientific evidence that this works at all.

About the "intrinsic 28-hour pattern", in _most_ cases (not all, there are
probably people with real physiological disorders) this tendency to have a
longer day than 24 hours is induced by artificial light in the evening.
Electric lighting, and certainly staring into a bright LCD screen, is bright
enough to register as daylight to your biological clock, and cause it to shift
forward. In studies where people were isolated from artificial lights, people
who normally would have a rhythm slightly longer reverted back to almost
exactly 24 hours.

Rather than "hacking your brain", it would probably be more beneficial for the
majority of people to just learn about how sleep works and of the importance
of managing it properly.

~~~
dcurtis
I am trying to find a couple primary sources to back up your suggestion that I
got the REM/other phases backwards. That would be quite embarrassing, but I am
pretty sure I am correct. Does anyone know of any of any good studies done on
REM deficit?

Polyphasic sleep does not train the body to "need less sleep" directly. But it
appears the body adapts to use the naps more efficiently than it would use a
longer chunk of sleep. To suggest there is "no basis in science" for this
seems kind of a stretch. There is science that describes this process.

I'm aware that people claiming to have messed up biological clocks tend to
have environmental or physiological factors that cause the problems. I have
done pretty much everything sort of isolating myself from artificial light for
a period of time longer than about a week, and my body is stuck on a 28-hour
clock.

Also, you suggest that people deprived of artificial light snap into a
"exactly" 24-hour schedule. This is actually not correct. Many studies have
been done showing that the default schedule ends up being about 25 hours when
you deprive people of clocks and light sources.

~~~
jwecker
I did an uberman polyphasic schedule for a year and everyman for about 6
months. Stage N1 is likely an adjustment period where your body rhythms slow
down and things get ready. Studies have shown that stage N2 and N3 (deep
cycles) are essential for healing and muscle growth- they are also when HGH
hormones are released. REM has shown to be essential for memory retention and
some studies have linked lack of REM to schizophrenia and other psychosis.

When I was polyphasic, roughly 70% of my polynaps were REM and 30% were deep
cycles. Interestingly, if I was sore from a workout or something, it would
continue to be sore until I had a deep cycle.

Despite the vast, vast multitude of sleep studies (and departments, and
journals) out there, I've only seen one study on polyphasic sleep and it was
very exploratory. People who study sleep at all immediately associate it with
sleep deprivation, which has been studied so much all they can do is spew
forth the negatives (there are tons) associated with it. The premise of
functional polyphasic sleep is that the body actually adjust so there is no
sleep deprivation.

I didn't end up blogging about it, and I don't write about it much, because
frankly, after doing it for a month or so- when I was really well adjusted- I
ceased having something to prove. It kind of feels like talking about my bowel
movements or something. I guess it could be vaguely interesting to someone,
but it bores the crap out of me (forgive me).

So quickly: I would not recommend it. You can't exercise much, the adjustment
period is very, very difficult (only 10 days, but that's 6 naps a day == like
getting up way earlier than you wanted to 60 times in a row. Most people can't
even get up earlier than they want to once in a row.) You need an environment
where you can have all the lights on and make all the noise you want all
night. You can't have other people imposing meetings or any kind of schedule
on you. You can't do anything that takes longer than 4 hours. And here's the
real kicker: you can't work for more than ~50 hours a week without getting
burned out! Yeah, having more hours doesn't help that. And don't even think of
starting it if you have something remotely stressful coming up or not enough
to do. And don't think of starting it if you live somewhere where it's cold at
night. Etc.

All the debate over the health effects are meaningless- it's people who
haven't experienced it or frankly studied it. Sleep deprivation only applies
in the first 10 days. After that it feels far less harmful then, say,
caffeine. _shrug_

EDIT: Hypothesis (in case someone actually wants to _study_ it- I sure
couldn't find any takers when I was doing it): The body seemed to eliminate N1
altogether- my heartrate and body temperature would drop within 30 seconds of
lying down- for over a year. 2nd part of the hypothesis- the the first one or
two REM cycles at night are essential and the rest is padding built in by
evolution to keep you asleep until dawn. 3rd part- other body functions
relying on the circadian rhythm adapt- especially digestion, which is
_totally_ different when fully adjusted to polyphasic sleep. 4th- there is a
reservoir of... something... built up for when you get injured or sick by
having that extra sleep in monophasic sleep.

Also, I stopped because I got lazy.

Finally, if you get colds easy, don't even try. A single cold will wipe you
out for a day or more.

~~~
miracle
Thanks for posting your experience.

What do you mean with you got lazy? Were you too busy (eg meetings) keeping
the right sleep schedules? How hard is it to wake up at the right time if you
are accustomed to it?

If you would have the possibility to do it again, would you do it again?

~~~
jwecker
lazy- yes. We were moving from Maui back to the mainland and between logistics
and the kids and everything my sleep schedule got totally chaotic. Then when
we were here on the mainland I wasn't in a position where I could have lots of
lights on, cook, and make noise during the night.

I stopped using an alarm clock after about a month- so for 17 months I didn't
even need an alarm clock after I was accustomed to it.

Doing it again... yes, if the circumstances were just right. Looking back now
I realize I was in a unique position with work, family, stress levels,
weather, etc. It took a couple of weeks to adjust back to a monophasic
schedule- and it was not fun. I'm not excited for the adjustment back to
polyphasic sleep. But yeah, I might do it again after our move to Silicon
Valley later in the year.

------
kirse
I always wonder about these people who claim to have adjusted sleep cycles
(i.e. 28 hours). Personally I find that I also drift to staying awake later
and later if I'm not exercising during the week.

If I get in a solid hour workout daily (like I usually do), I'm out like a
light in 5 minutes as soon as it's time for bed. Do enough physical work
during the day and your body will have no problem passing out because it's
simply exhausted.

I also love how he labels the 8-hour sleep "the waste". Any other athletes
here will confirm that you can't possibly recover, build muscle, and have the
energy for hard workouts with 20 minute naps during the day. Polyphasic sleep
might allow one to just barely function, but it's hardly functioning at your
best.

~~~
miracle
How do you know that your muscles only recover during night and not during
day.

You could still lay on the coach and read a book and your muscles would
recover as well, or not?

~~~
mbrubeck
According to the NIH, _Sleep is one of the events that modify the timing of
secretion for certain hormones. Many hormones are secreted into the blood
during sleep. For example, scientists believe that the release of growth
hormone is related in part to repair processes that occur during sleep._

[http://science.education.nih.gov/supplements/nih3/sleep/guid...](http://science.education.nih.gov/supplements/nih3/sleep/guide/info-
sleep.htm)

~~~
jordyhoyt
Right, and what first came to mind for me was Melatonin. I was looking into
sleep hacks a couple years back and studying up on Melatonin drove me away
from trying out anything that would disturb a "normal" amount of time sleeping
in the dark. I remember seeing a study that linked a lack of Melatonin
production to some kinds of cancer. Can't seem to find it now.

------
JabavuAdams
I wonder how this affects learning and memory.

anecdotes:

My wife and I are both very attuned to our learning processes, and we both
notice immediate skill improvements after "sleeping on it". This applies to
learning, retention, and even physical skills (sports and video games).

Because sleep affects cognition, being poorly rested can amplify all kinds of
bad habits. When I'm fully rested, I'll think "let me sketch out a solution
and plan my code changes". When I'm sleep deprived, I just jump in and flail.
It's literally the difference between "oh, I know I should do X, but I'll just
dive in 'cause that's fun" versus just doing X, and having fun anyway.

There were times in university where I would get up at 6 pm, and go to sleep
at 6 am. I couldn't understand so-called "morning people".

Now, though, if I go to bed tired at 10:30 pm, I wake up rested at 6:30 am. It
really is a matter of training. I rarely go to bed later than midnight now,
after 20 years of rarely going to bed before midnight.

That feeling of being fully rested was a vivid surprise. My eyes open, and I
realize I'm lying down, but I could just as well be standing up. There's no
friction. There's no pain. I'm ready to go.

So, in summary ... be very careful about messing with your sleep patterns, and
don't assume that you're somehow incompatible with the standard sleep
schedule. i suspect that a lot of it is just plain old boring training, not
sexy hacking.

~~~
youngian
_There were times in university where I would get up at 6 pm, and go to sleep
at 6 am. I couldn't understand so-called "morning people".

Now, though, if I go to bed tired at 10:30 pm, I wake up rested at 6:30 am. It
really is a matter of training. I rarely go to bed later than midnight now,
after 20 years of rarely going to bed before midnight._

I actually had a very different experience. In college I spent a month trying
to become a "morning person." After the initial adjusment period, it worked
great for a little under two weeks - I'd go to sleep at 10:30, and hop out of
bed at 7:00 feeling fresh and ready to go. But suddenly (perhaps once I
finally caught up on my sleep debt) I stopped falling asleep at 11. Instead
I'd lie in bed wide awake for two or three hours, and feel as grumpy as ever
the next morning. After three consecutive days of that, I gave up on being a
morning person and have yet to look back.

------
menloparkbum
I've always wondered if the polyphasic sleep hackers have girlfriends or
wives. It seems like you'd either have to be chaste, or else have a very odd
relationship with your significant other. I can't imagine having sex, then
taking a 20 minute nap, then getting right back to SEO strategy or whatever it
is the polyphasic crowd needs all that extra time for.

The other thing is that I've never heard of a woman trying polyphasic sleep or
even being mildly interested in trying it. It seems to be one of those things
that only guys with blogs care about.

~~~
abossy
Steve Pavlina is married, and he describes the effect his sleep cycle had on
his relationship to his wife. I can't remember if he discusses sex at all, but
you may be interested in finding out for yourself:

<http://www.stevepavlina.com/blog/2005/10/polyphasic-sleep/>

~~~
zzzmarcus
Steve Pavlina also became polyamorous after trying (and quitting) polyphasic
sleeping. Infer what you will about his marriage from that.

------
iamelgringo
Sorry, Dustin. Your writing and sense of design (as always) are really
wonderful. But your medical suggestions... not so much.

It's really not possible to "hack" your sleep schedule effectively for any
length of time. True, some people, called "short sleepers" do function rather
well on 3-4 hours of sleep a night. But, most people require an average of 7-9
hours of sleep, and when they deviate from that for any length of time, they
eventually rebound to their required length of sleep.

When you do try to "hack" your natural sleep schedule, you end up tired, and
functioning sub optimally. Scientific studies have shown that people who are
chronically sleep deprived are as dangerous behind the wheel of a car as
someone who is legally intoxicated. Why would you do that to yourself
willingly?

There is a lot of good scientific research being done in the field of sleep
medicine. There are physicians who specialize in sleep. I've been going to one
for the past year. And, while sleep medicine is a young discipline, a sleep
doctor can be quite helpful.

If you're tired all the time, may I suggest you see a physician who has
studies and specialized in such things instead of trying to diagnose and treat
yourself via the internet.

~~~
symptic
I have several friends who have successfully gone on and off of the polyphasic
sleep cycle. Just as with most things in life, you need to be open and willing
and dedicated to make it work. This relates to forging your way with a
startup, gaining muscle, adjusting sleep patterns, dating... everything.

It's fair to go from your own experiences, but I know polyphasic sleep is
doable, reasonable, and even better for some people. My cup of tea? Definitely
not.

~~~
WilliamLP
> I have several friends who have successfully gone on and off of the
> polyphasic sleep cycle.

The big question is do you know anyone who went on, and did _not_ go off.

~~~
dgreensp
From the reading I've done, people tend to go off it when external factors
make it difficult to adhere to such a rigid nap schedule, e.g. every four
hours on the dot, rain or shine. As with any habit that requires discipline,
like being vegan or practicing the violin 6 hours a day, it's not necessarily
a life-long thing.

But people commonly say things like "I did it for a year; best year of my
life". Apparently you can literally go for a year getting a total of 2 hours
of sleep in each 24-hour period. After a week of forcing it on yourself, if
you're brave, determined, and a little lucky, a switch flips in your brain.

If that's a fact, in spite of the nay-sayers, then that's really something. I
intend to find out for myself.

~~~
WilliamLP
Yet many people are vegan for years, and practice violin for 6 hours a day for
years. As far as I can tell, there is not one documented case where someone
who has maintained polyphasic sleep for more than six months or so?

------
proee
OPEN SOURCE BED PROJECT?

We have the latest technologies when it comes to automobiles and other
products, yet our bed is still using the same technology that's existed for
thousands of years. Let's rethink our sleeping apparatus.

Here's my inventive thoughts on sleeping.

Why not use all the technology at our disposal to create the ultimate sleeping
bed?

Here's the basic design:

1\. The bed has a lid that closes over top (think coffin but roomier inside).

2\. Bed has temperature control system to vent air and adjust to sleeping
preferences.

3\. Bed mattress has cooling pipes to control mattress temperatures.

4\. Lot of control systems to monitor air temperature, mattress temperature
and body temperature and keeps them all in check.

5\. Integrated lighting in the dome of the bed is used for waking and mood
setting

6\. Bed sits on motorized incline to help with morning assist routines

The fun with this projects comes in setting up the control system for optimal
sleep cycles. With the variable being temperature (air and mattress), light,
sound, and bed angle.

Any takers?

Edit: additional note is this could be considered a "green" bed because it has
a self contain heating/cooling system which is more efficient than
heating/cooling your entire house. So at night, you can lower your overall
energy requirements for hvac related bills.

~~~
philwelch
Aside from claustrophobes, this might work alright. But it would require a lot
of material, and it would have to look good, because people like beds that are
made out of nice looking wood. And it's expensive building a roomy king-size
coffin out of maple ;)

~~~
proee
Well it wouldn't be claustrophobic assuming you make the dome with sufficient
headroom. You could do some human factor studies and determine what size of
enclosure people can lay down inside and still feel fine.

In terms of material, I'd prefer something more techie than wood - some sort
of composite material to make the canopy light and moder looking. Maybe like a
large oval shape.

~~~
philwelch
Yeah, there's probably enough of a niche market for unconventional beds that
making them out of conventional materials isn't the best solution.

------
WilliamLP
What's conspicuously missing from this article is the author mentioning which
method he is using, and how long he has maintained it.

Without that, it reads like an article about what he wants to do, but has
never managed to maintain. It's akin to taking diet advice from someone who
has lost and gained weight many times in their lives and has never proven they
can stop the cycling.

------
oliveoil
I think there are two major problems with "hacking" one's sleeping patterns
like this. First is physiological side effects that can go undetected for a
very long time and cause permanent damage. Lack of sleep increases blood
pressure, for instance.

Or the effectiveness of the thinking process itself (which is more difficult
to measure) -- I was told at school that when I sleep my brain "processes and
sorts information". Well if you reduce the amount of sleep four times perhaps
you become more prone to make mistakes when working (and lose time fixing
them).

~~~
ph0rque
The original article's claims, and your counter-claims, need to be
proven/disproven by a study of individuals practicing poly-phasic sleep for
e.g. 10-20 years. Until then, we're basically in anecdote territory.

~~~
colins_pride
Why hasn't that study been done?

I think it's because this is something that is very hard to stick with. After
the physical adjustment, one has to be willing to organize one's life in a way
consistent with this, and that is tough when everybody uses this other mode of
sleep.

------
scott_s
Relevant discussion from the last time this came up:
<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=652747>

------
pchristensen
Again, here is the link to my experience doing polyphasic sleep:
[http://www.pchristensen.com/blog/articles/category/polyphasi...](http://www.pchristensen.com/blog/articles/category/polyphasic/)

I agree with Dustin - it works but you have to be strict on the schedule. My
life didn't accommodate the schedule so I had to stop, but it did work for the
short time I could schedule it.

~~~
scott_s
No one's life accommodates that sleeping schedule - which is why we don't
naturally sleep like that.

~~~
youngian
If the rest of the world wasn't so rigorously attached to monophasic, I don't
see why it would be so difficult. It's not an inherently unworkable schedule,
it's just that our work, commerce, and socializing all take forms that don't
accommodate it.

Anyways, I'm intrigued by what he calls the "Everyman" schedules - they seem
like a compromise between the rigid Uberman and the monophasic that the rest
of the world uses.

~~~
scott_s
It's difficult because our bodies did not evolve to sleep to that schedule.
Every account I've read concludes with "It's great! I'm happy with how it
turned out! Oh, by the way, I don't do it anymore because it's so hard to keep
up."

Read the thread I linked to, which is now at the bottom of this discussion.

------
endergen
Just do heavy exercise, you will require more sleep and sleep deeper. I don't
sleep well unless I'm doing 1.5 hours of exercise.

Doing mentally stimulating work before going to bed is the worst way to sleep
well. I need almost 2 hours of mindless tv or something besides programming
before going to bed to sleep properly. Otherwise I have programming dreams.

Perhaps Dustin exercises a lot, or maybe he's always been more into
intellectual pursuits.

------
symptic
I can appreciate how effective these methods are, but I personally don't like
the idea of stripping one of the enjoyable things in my schedule down to how
efficient it is. Working hard is great, but I think there is such thing as too
much of it at the cost of an enjoyable life (for me).

~~~
brc
I imagine that trying to do weird sleep patterns will exclude you from that
other great evolutionary need : sex. Not many partners would put up with
someone dropping everything and running off for a 20 minute nap. They'd likely
classify you under 'freak' and go and find someone else to share genetic
material with.

------
hendler
great submission. Thanks. I really like hearing about this kind of hacking vs
using something like provigil.

My experience has been that I can function with less sleep (4-5 hours with 1/2
hour nap), but less optimally, eventually. The naps can often be very
refreshing, and sustaining even, but eventually it's not enough. At least for
me. I've done these sleep patterns for about 6 months at a time - with longer
sleep once a week.

Exercise (more precisely, blood flow to the brain) makes a big difference for
me. Staying vertical in a chair for 12 hours a day with no exercise or nap vs
16 hours a day with exercise break/nap feels comparable.

------
bcl
Steve Pavlina has some extensive blogging on the subject, as well as his daily
logs over at <http://www.stevepavlina.com/blog/2005/10/polyphasic-sleep/>

------
miracle
So did anybody try to do directly the uberman's sleep schedule (6 times 20
minutes sleep)?

A friend tried passing to it through multiple core sleep phases, but failed
miserably after one week.

------
chaostheory
Until there's more research studying the long term effects of this, I really
don't think it's a good idea.

Current research has identified that conventional sleeping helps memory,
learning, creativity, and muscle repair/recovery (related to working out); not
sleeping well can lead to stuff like high blood pressure and the hardening of
heart arteries (which leads to heart attacks).

Then again if you don't have much of a choice if you have a hard deadline,
this may be a useful tool to use now and again.

~~~
Aximilation
Polyphasic sleep != sleep deprivation unless it is not done correctly. Yes,
not sleeping well (deprivation) can cause those things, but it does not mean
that polyphasic sleep causes them. _if_ you have adapted and are on a
consistent schedule, you should be more rested than before.

~~~
chaostheory
" not sleeping well (deprivation) can cause those things, but it does not mean
that polyphasic sleep causes them. "

Until there's research conducted on the long term effects of polyphasic sleep,
who's to say it doesn't cause those things?

------
gregwebs
There’s no clearly defined biological reason for it, and it is intuitively an
evolutionary disadvantage.

Sleeping during the night was extremely important for human survival. We
evolved to find food during the day. Any waking hours at night time instead of
sleeping means a huge amount of extra energy expended to support being awake.
Sleep pressure has a huge evolutionary advantage. It may be a disadvantage
now.

------
rms
There's also biphasic -- 4 hours + 4 hours, but you could probably comfortably
spread the two sessions out across 28 hours however you want

~~~
philwelch
Humans are naturally biphasic, but more in the 6-7 hours + .5-1 hours range.
Which is why some cultures have a midday siesta.

Famous people who actually slept biphasically include Winston Churchill, who
was by all accounts energetic, hardworking, and did not sleep that much
overall.

------
quizbiz
I just wish I remembered more of my dreams and perhaps even be able to control
them to use as brainstorming sessions.

------
albemuth
Didn't Kramer try this and fail?

------
c00p3r
You think military and some goverment agencies didn't spent millions and
decades for it? =)

