
Boring Company to use Tesla’s technology for its tunnel project under LA - doener
https://electrek.co/2017/08/08/elon-musk-boring-company-tesla-tunnel/
======
paulsutter
Boring Company has a bigger potential impact on transportation than Uber or
Google even dream about.

At 200kph, with no traffic, all that empty land near San Rafael or beyond the
Berkeley tunnel can be minutes away from downtown San Francisco. This could be
a huge impact on housing and our everyday life.

The transcontinental railroad was paid in part through land grants to the
railroad[1], for parcels along the route. That land was instantly valuable
once the railroad was completed. Real estate could be a bigger part of Boring
Company profits than user fees.

[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Transcontinental_Railroa...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Transcontinental_Railroad#Land_grants)

~~~
alecco
Transportation is only a part of the puzzle. Where would you fit more millions
of people in downtown San Francisco?

The upside of this is decentralization, not more concentration.

~~~
jseliger
_Where would you fit more millions of people in downtown San Francisco?_

In buildings. It's really not that hard: [https://www.vox.com/a/new-economy-
future/urban-sprawl-housin...](https://www.vox.com/a/new-economy-future/urban-
sprawl-housing-costs-solutions-elevators) or
[http://www.slate.com/blogs/moneybox/2013/05/03/silicon_valle...](http://www.slate.com/blogs/moneybox/2013/05/03/silicon_valley_housing_boom_there_s_no_such_thing.html)
. It's just illegal, right now, to build the buildings that people want to
occupy. Make it legal and lots more people will live in SF and environs.

~~~
samstave
Singapore is the city to study. They build massive underground connections,
malls, transport etc as they grow. They have massive setbacks to the buildings
which allow for it to have a crap ton of trees and plants all between
buildings... they plan to double their population and are building smartly.

But, as with any city - the income disparity and the cost of living is high -
but all cities need affordable labor as well as economic opportunity.

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1024core
> They aim to have no impact at the surface by digging just about 20 feet (6
> meters) in the ground.

Is 20 feet enough? I would imagine that a lot more depth would be required to
support the above-ground structures.

~~~
Animats
A TBM doesn't just dig a hole. It installs tunnel ring segments to support the
ground above. 6 meters down is no big deal. That's mostly to get below other
buried infrastructure.

Here's a good explanation of how TBMs work from Crossrail.[1] They use two
types of TBM. There are also hard-rock TBMs, used in deep jobs like the
Gotthart Base Tunnel. For some hard-rock jobs, a tunnel lining isn't
necessary.

Most of the problems in tunneling involve water. Mud, leaks, underground
rivers, etc. The Boring Company doesn't mention water much. So far, the Boring
Company just seems to have bought a small TBM and is learning to use it.

[1]
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z38JIqGDZVU](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z38JIqGDZVU)

~~~
erikpukinskis
They've mentioned water when asked about Hyperloop, to point out that standard
tunnels are waterproof to a specification that they could also support the
level of vacuum necessary for Hyperloop, without modification.

The SpaceX rep mentioned this in the recent Hawthorne city council meeting,
and I believe Elon said the same thing in one of his presentations.

~~~
Animats
It's not keeping water out of the tunnel once built that's hard. It's building
the tunnel through water and mud that's hard.

~~~
Boothroid
Sure, but groundwater flow has to be accounted for. Hard engineering can lead
to very bad outcomes. The Soviets tried to ignore the effects of disrupting
thermal equilibrium in their attempts to build cities in permafrost areas.
Their solution was prodigious volumes of concrete. It failed badly. These days
geotechnical engineers try to work more harmoniously. For example, in areas
with saturated soil one approach is to excavate an equivalent weight of soil
to that of your construction, thus the building effectively floats, and there
is no disruption to the local dynamics.

I cannot see that Elon can get around the need for proper geomorphological
study here.

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capkutay
It's still unclear to me how their technology is different. Did they just slap
the Elon Musk brand/allure on regular boring machines for SpaceX/Tesla's own
use?

edit: Well I guess they have a pretty clear FAQ on their site, but I'm
wondering if the small tunnel diameter can be used for anything other than
cars. Would subway cars fit?

[https://www.boringcompany.com/faq/](https://www.boringcompany.com/faq/)

~~~
matthewowen
London Underground tunnels are less than 12ft.

There's no reason you couldn't do trains instead of cars.

It's weird to me that you'd do this with cars if you believe self driving cars
are the future. Trains between hubs give higher density (which means building
fewer tunnels), then (if strictly necessary) switch to a car at the other end
to get to your final destination.

~~~
Animats
Musk's proposed tunnel size is 14 feet, slightly bigger than London
Underground deep tunnels. (Crossrail's tunnels are about 20 feet inside
diameter, large enough for full-size English passenger trains.)

~~~
dx034
14 feet probably means that standard containers couldn't be transported?
Containers are close to 10 feet, not sure if that leaves enough room.

A tunnel just for passenger cars would be a bit of a waste.

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jaclaz
The TBM (Tunnel Boring Machine) seems pretty much a "standard" one and in a
note on one of the photos it is stated how it has been alredy used (in some
project in San Francisco).

The title seems to imply that the technology for boring the tunnel is Tesla
derived, while it is related to the _whatever vehicles_ that will be used in
the tunnel once it will have been bored "traditionally".

~~~
drcross
While the two subject seem to be confused in the article I assume that Tesla
tech can be used in both the tunneling and the sleds. Musk's aim was to
increase boring speed by two orders of magnitude so presumably they'll find
inefficiencies by converting the boring machine to run on electric motors over
what I presume to be diesel engines in existing machines.

~~~
stupidcar
I'd be surprised if they use diesel engines. Seems like dealing with the
exhaust in a closed environment like that would add too much risk and
complexity.

~~~
jaclaz
Right, though the issue is not much about risk and complexity, but rather by
sheer power needed to push the air in a tunnel.

The smaller the tunnel is, the smaller is the size of the ventilation tubes
that can be used, and thus you need more power to push the air inside.

The amount of air needed by an electric motor is "0", whilst the amount of air
needed by a combustion engine is something that needs to be evaluated on a
case by case basis, normally the rule of the thumb is 4 cubic meters per
minute for each Diesel HP (i.e. with kW's 5.4/KW).

And you have to assure anywyay some air to the people, usually 3 cubic meters
per person per minute is used.

And there is anywyay a limit to the pressure with which you can pump air in,
because the "return speed" is usually limited to a maximum of 0.5 m/s (as
higher speed may cause the transportation of dust and particles).

And then of course the longer the tunnel is the more powerful must the
ventilating fans be, we are talking of several hundreds of kW to power these
fans.

~~~
Dylan16807
So that's enough airflow to make the engine exhaust be half a percent CO2,
which is right about at workplace limits. And extreme overkill on the per-
person air if everything is mixed together. (If it's not mixed together it
makes sense to over-ventilate the humans for comfort.)

~~~
jaclaz
I am not sure to understand what you mean "not mixed together", the tunnel is
a single environment to which you provide air.

The method generally used is "positive pressure".

I.e. there is a single pipe or duct through which the air is pushed till the
excavation front.

The air, having no possible way out is forced to go back towards the tunnel
opening.

Since usually the most activities are near the excavation front there is
concentrated the clean air, while the one returning back is "contaminated" by
the CO2 and other fumes at the excavation front.

The 3 m3/min per person and 4 m3/min per HP are common rules of the thumb to
calculate the amount of air, and is in practice a "large" allowance since it
is calculated with the maximum possible number of people and with the
theoretical power of diesel engines (that never run at 100% throttle), and it
has to take into account the said effect of contamination so that people
working in the tunnel (not a the the excavation front) still get enough clean
air.

Moreover it is not a "continuous fine regulation", fans have normally a finite
number of speeds, so you are always using the speed (and the number of fans)
calculated for the "longest stretch". As an example for the first 200 mt of
excavation you have one fan at 1st speed, the next step, switching to 2nd
speed is good up to (say) 400 meters, and you switch to 2nd as soon as you get
past 200 mt, and so on.

~~~
Dylan16807
So yes it's all mixed together from the second the air leaves the duct.

Which makes it interesting that the 4 cubic meters per HP is about 10 times
the allowance for contamination as the 3 cubic meters per person. Everyone
shares the higher contamination level whenever the engines are active.

~~~
jaclaz
Not really everyone.

In such a ventilation scheme during the works most personnel is near or in the
immediate vicinity of the excavation front, they have "non-contaminated"
"fresh air" at all times.

You get some "contaminated" air only during the time it takes from the tunnel
entrance to the excavation front, and in some circumstances people making
maintenance or other works far from the excavation front.

As said the quantity of fresh air fanned in is much more than what actually
"needed", there are sensors for the contamination and all in all the air you
breath in any modern tunnel during construction is much, much better than what
anyone breaths everyday in a trafficked city.

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baron816
I don't think we should pay much attention to this stuff until they actually
start building TBMs or have some technological breakthroughs.

~~~
stephengillie
Agreed - they're a pretty boring company until they get some real tech going.

------
atarian
Pretty cool how Musk's companies reuse technologies amongst themselves. Back
in 2015, SpaceX shared welding techniques and machinery with Tesla:

[https://electrek.co/2015/05/24/spacex-transferred-novel-
weld...](https://electrek.co/2015/05/24/spacex-transferred-novel-welding-
techniques-and-equipment-to-tesla-motors/)

~~~
dx034
Don't all companies do that? GE will also share basic techniques between
departments. And if you don't have another department to get the knowledge you
contract other companies. There's no need to invent everything yourself.

To me the whole thing sounds more like a marketing stunt. Tunneling is
extremely expensive. Musk knows how to make products more efficient but the
improvement needed in this case is probably far more than what he achieved
with Tesla.

------
acdjuiamadfn
Can anybody comment on how technology transfer between two firms works where
one firm is say 80% musk + a + b and the other, say, 40% musk + x + y + z ?

Both firms are technically separate, right? I suppose x,y,z would mind if Musk
just took the tech to Boring company. And a,b would mind if he chose Tesla (if
it were not the best)?

Or are people flexible in this regard? In the initial stages?

~~~
drcross
Didn't Tesla open all of their patents?

~~~
kuschku
Tesla opened some of their patents, and only if you in return give all of your
patents to Tesla.

This is also why no carmaker except for Mercedes has used Tesla patents at
all, and Mercedes simply bought 5% of Tesla to get the patents.

------
wonder_bread
If Tesla 'merged' with SpaceX and Boring Co. on the public market you're
talking about a company that could have a $100B mkt cap as soon as next year,
the slight and continuing unofficial convergence of all of his companies is a
bit odd

~~~
stcredzero
Not odd at all for someone bent on retiring on Mars. Airtight underground
dwellings are the current best bet for Mars habitation.

------
pbreit
Does anyone know the ownership structure of The Boring Company? Is it a spin-
off of Tesla or SpaceX or a brand new standalone entity?

~~~
rockinghigh
Standalone entity founded by Musk.

------
kristianc
What I'm not clear about is how BC plan to overcome American cities tendency
to sprawl. It seems there's a huge risk of building tunnels at enormous
expense which travel between places where people, at some indefinite point in
the not too distant future, no longer really travel to.

Either that, or you build tunnels in highly concentrated places like Manhattan
that just act as a supplement to existing metro networks. What am I missing
here?

~~~
erikpukinskis
Isn't that true of any capital expenditure? You make a model, cross your
fingers, sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't, but you make it up on the
margin.

~~~
kristianc
I guess but I'm making the presupposition that Elon Musk is smarter than me,
therefore he wouldn't have overlooked this, and am curious to know what I'm
missing or what my mental model of how American cities grow and sprawl is
failing to take account of.

~~~
erikpukinskis
It takes decades for a population center to empty. Plenty of time to recoup an
investment. If he starts with low hanging fruit, like transit between
deadlocked parts of LA he'll be making money. Maybe eventually he gets down
into boondoggle territory, but I don't see why that should be a concern. As
part of a larger fund, a few boondoggles are no problem—learning experiences.

------
jeffreygoesto
They must be careful. In Germany, tunnel construction just caused major train
track damage:
[http://m.spiegel.de/reise/deutschland/a-1162727.html](http://m.spiegel.de/reise/deutschland/a-1162727.html)

------
samstave
What happens to all the material tunneled out?

What happens when TBC wants to tunnel where secret government tunnels already
exist?

~~~
k_sh
...secret government tunnels?

~~~
samstave
It's long been rumored that there are tunnels cross crossing the us,
connecting deep underground military bases.

We know for a fact there are numerous tunnels in DC, some that go to places to
support / maintain continuity of government in the event of nuclear war.

I think it's erroneous to think that they are no longer in use, but nobody
really knows their true extent.

The point was simply that if the amount of tunnels needed for this type of
transport were dug, through the US, they would reveal, somehow, if such
tunnels did really exist.

~~~
dx034
The government will probably release information about areas and depths were
no one is allowed to dig. This can be vague enough to not disclose information
about where tunnels actually are while still ensuring their safety.

------
agumonkey
It's funny how must cross breeds his ventures. Solar energy, electric
vehicles.. probably some high end engineering talent from SpaceX too. It's a
bit like Apple maybe ? he bootstraps it's own vibe.

~~~
akvadrako
You are probably being downvoted due to your terrible typo.

~~~
agumonkey
I deserved hit.

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Bromskloss
Oh, "Tesla" the _company_ , not the man, as I expected. :-/

~~~
andai
Yeah, for the past five years I've been like, "Oh look, Tesla! Aww. Oh look,
Tesla! Aww."

------
Punisher
I keep thinking, if this is really just for research and development, why are
they doing it under LA?

It seems like there would be some place more remote and a little safer for
drilling giant tunnels.

Also, I'm surprised to hear it's only going to be 6m deep.

~~~
baq
They have property that they can dig on in LA.

------
blacksqr
That doesn't sound boring at all.

~~~
vm
"Boring" is the process of excavating a tunnel. Play on words :)

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tunnel_boring_machine](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tunnel_boring_machine)

