

Nobody's Going to Help You, and That's Awesome - dylangs1030
http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/2011/07/nobodys-going-to-help-you-and-thats-awesome.html

======
itmag
If you can only stomach scientifically proven self-help advice, then you might
like this:

[http://lesswrong.com/lw/3nn/scientific_selfhelp_the_state_of...](http://lesswrong.com/lw/3nn/scientific_selfhelp_the_state_of_our_knowledge/)

<http://lesswrong.com/lw/3w3/how_to_beat_procrastination/>

<http://lesswrong.com/lw/4su/how_to_be_happy/>

Now, upvote me :) (reverse reverse psychology)

~~~
vilya
That first link in particular is excellent. Thanks for posting it!

~~~
keithpeter
Yup, interesting page, but I have to say that I found the section on 'study
methods' a little disappointing. That section reduces the idea of learning to
memorising information.

As a teacher I'm more interested in helping my students achieve a deeper
learning - an awareness of how concepts are connected and how they link to the
lives of my students.

If you happen to have access to an academic library, look at _Visible
Learning_ by John Hattie. Plenty of evidence (the book is an attempt to
synthesize the findings of many hundreds of studies).

[http://gwegner.edublogs.org/2010/03/01/john-hattie-
visible-l...](http://gwegner.edublogs.org/2010/03/01/john-hattie-visible-
learning/)

Having said that, getting teenagers to make a simple to do list and to
allocate a little time per day to routine 'deliberate practice' is a good
start. The Pomodoro Technique page went down quite well, especially when I
brought in some kitchen timers...

------
KenjiCrosland
I used to read a lot of self-help but I don't anymore. It's not that many
books don't provide good advice but that the advice is really just common
sense. Read a list of proverbs and you've basically got what most self-help
books and blogs say covered.

A few years ago I bought into a lot of the self-help stuff. I read many books,
and by the time I realized I was pretty much reading the same thing over and
over again, I stopped. There were of course some esoteric Neuro-Linguistic-
Programming Techniques I could try, but to me that seemed a lot like being a
"cargo-cult" (<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cargo_cult_programming>)
programmer--introducing behavior patterns that are meant to be a stand alone
module when you don't know how they might interact the code that is already
there (i.e. your current behavioral conditioning).

To me, I think that reading self-help can be a necessary and important stage
in personal growth. Necessary and important, but intermediate. The moment you
graduate from self-help, is the moment you start creating your own path for
growth that is meaningful for you.

~~~
kristiandupont
The thing is, advice _is_ common sense once you get it. I've read a lot of
self help and I feel that it has helped me evolve in many ways. I am not
attracted to the new-age stuff but for instance Tim Ferriss offers really
actionable advice which I like.

The same thing applies to HN. I used to swallow all of it whereas now I feel
that most material here is repetitive. I catch myself thinking "Jesus, another
blog entry on this topic that is obvious to everyone!". What has happened of
course, is that HN has shaped and evolved my thinking in this particular area.
I still love it but I am looking forward to discovering the book/forum/idea
that will take me to the next level in my life.

------
bmcleod
It seems to me that people that don't read self-help books lump a lot more
books into the genre and that causes them to miss a number of books they
should read.

Earlier this year I recommended Bargaining for Advantage to someone and they
responded that they don't really read self-help books. There are a number of
books like this that deal with particular topics inside of the broader self-
help genre, many of them going to a much more useful level of depth.

In bookstores I regularly find very good books on particular areas of business
mixed in with self-help in the more populist style.

Reading a number of these expert titles is very valuable. From the popular
group often only one book is enough to cover the common sense side of things,
for instance I recommend that all my friends read "how to Win friends and
influence people".

~~~
itmag
People who don't want to read self-help books boggle my mind.

Self-help to me means seeing life as an MMORPG with infinite possibility:
levelling up your player character, meeting cool guild mates, acquiring lots
of loot, exploring new areas, etc. Who the hell doesn't want that?

Then again, most people probably think of the most egregious examples of
cheesy New Age stuff when they think about self-help. What I advocate is more
like "muscular self-help", ie everything that levels up life and leads to more
winning! (heh). I will read anything that gives me a shot at that.

I even founded a magazine because of my belief in muscular self help:
<http://www.interestingtimesmagazine.com> (shameless plug, I know).

~~~
rubergly
The point is: would you rather spend your time playing the game, or reading
someone's stab in the dark on the mechanics of the game based on his/her
personal experience and questionable expertise?

~~~
itmag
I would rather do both, actually.

I can find out a lot of stuff on my own, but it never helps to read what
someone else has figured out.

Analogy: I can figure out design patterns of programming on my own, but I can
speed up the process if I read a book on it. Same with design patterns for
happiness and success.

There are lots of things I consider possibilities now that were not even on my
map before I read self-help books.

EDIT: s/never helps/never hurts/

~~~
rubergly
Personally, I agree (although I haven't actually read any books yet, but I'm
interested). But I would much rather spend 100% of my time playing the game
and 0% learning mechanics than I would spend 50% of my time playing and 50%
learning mechanics. I imagine the anti-self-help attitude comes from looking
at the 50/50 (or more extreme) people.

~~~
itmag
Isn't that what most people do, though? And most people are not living the
optimal version of their lives, or anywhere close (optimal being defined as
the life one wishes one had).

Before I started reading self-help materials, I was intellectually gifted but
I was a mess in terms of communication with others, emotional stability, self-
limiting beliefs, knowledge of possibilities in life, luminosity aka self-
insight, strategicness aka getting shit done with a plan, etc.

Studying self-help materials for the past 5 years is the most important thing
I've done in my life (a quite dramatic statement perhaps, but that's how it
feels to me).

That's why I get a bit upset and argumentative when people slam self-help:
it's a bit like saying I shouldn't have wasted my time reading all those
things, and instead should have just plodded on in darkness.

~~~
127
Got any good book recommendations?

~~~
itmag
What are your goals? Easier to recommend something if I know.

------
itmag
Shameless plug: I wrote an essay called "Tony Robbins über alles: or why I'm
such a gigantic self-help junkie".

Some of y'all might like it, some probably won't. Take it for what it is: my
somewhat sound defense of my overly costly self-help habit :)

It's the first article in this pdf:
<http://interestingtimesmagazine.com/archive/IT07.pdf>

------
BadassFractal
I think this is in part caused by the fact that we're really poor at
remembering and learning anything without actually applying in practice first,
analogously to how explaining a concept to someone actually helps you learn it
considerably better.

What this means is that self-help books are useful, but also that each hour of
self-help learning must be followed by 10 hours (or whatever ratio works for
you) of practicing and gaining experience. I think most people who are burned
by self-help are simply not turning into action what they read about, and
hence not deriving whatever important lessons or conclusions they could be
making based on what's in those books.

At the end of the day you don't have to agree with what any self-help text
teaches you, but by trying it out in practice you'll at least figure out if it
works for you or not.

~~~
kiba
It's not about the application of self-help advice, but the fact that most
self-help advice don't have any scientific basis and is mostly bullshit.

Anybody can sound authoritative and true. Anybody can invent ad-hoc reasons
for why their advice will work. That doesn't mean that what they're saying is
true. Just because the advice seems to work for you, doesn't mean it's
actually causing the progress.

You are a human being. You have cognitive bias. You have selective memory. You
are fallible.

This is why we need to conduct psychological research on self-help advice.
There are books that draws on the research done by psychologists over several
decades. Use them. Don't simply listen to self-help gurus that got rich simply
by writing self-help books.

Yes, application of self-help advice is going to be a problem, but it does you
no good if you're applying BS self-help advice.

~~~
BadassFractal
Isn't it irrelevant if it is scientifically proven or not, as long as it
actually works for you?

------
Revisor
It depends on what you understand under "self-help books".

The generic, feel-good ones, sure, those are trash that usually doesn't work
(they still might work given the specific situation).

The well researched, written by scientists and psychologists - I found a few
that I love. In fact I'm going to buy ten pieces of one book for this
Christmas because I have found it crucial.

These are the three well researched books I've read in the past 18 months that
turned my life around for the better and that I heartily recommend:

[1] The Promise of Sleep

[2] Self-theories: Their Role in Motivation, Personality, and Development

[3] Learned Optimism (that's the one I'm buying ten times for this year's
Christmas)

The one recommended in the article, 59 Seconds, is waiting on a pile of books
(not exclusively from the self-help category, with The Algorithm Design
Manual, Street Smarts, Architecture of Open Source Applications, Learn You a
Haskell etc.) to be read soon.

Let's read, think and become better people.

[1] [http://www.amazon.com/Promise-Sleep-Medicine-Connection-
Happ...](http://www.amazon.com/Promise-Sleep-Medicine-Connection-
Happiness/dp/0440509017/)

[2] [http://www.amazon.com/Self-theories-Motivation-
Personality-D...](http://www.amazon.com/Self-theories-Motivation-Personality-
Development-Psychology/dp/1841690244/)

[3] [http://www.amazon.com/Learned-Optimism-Change-Your-
Mind/dp/1...](http://www.amazon.com/Learned-Optimism-Change-Your-
Mind/dp/1400078393/)

------
pace
Self-help books are (very) often crap. But when they're good they really push
your motivation. So you don't learn a lot because learning requires always
doing and failing BUT usually you get some motivation and energy to try it
again, start something over--better books know how to brain wash and reframe
your mind for a few days. You get a very positive mindset and that's what you
need to get out of your daily routine which wears you out. Some examples which
gave me this motivation push: Poke the Box from Seth Godin, Millionaire's
Upgrade, Ellen Cars Stop-smoking book and some more (the ratio of good to bad
books ist as the OP said: 10 to 90 to even 5 to 95. And as I wrote the
motivational push keeps usually a few days only but hey, that's often enough
to start something new and get traction.

But somehow I am not sure if the post is a clever way to sell the promoted
book ...

~~~
nosignal
The post is a clever way to sell the Skeptics Stack Exchange site (and the
referrer link in the Amazon link won't hurt either). Not that there's anything
wrong with either of these things — the book sounds interesting and I wasn't
aware of the Skeptics SE site so it's win/win for Atwood & I.

------
ISloop
Its not that self-help books are bullshit, its that most people don't have the
willpower to actually change their lifestyles. They're afraid of stepping
outside of their comfort zone, because they're afraid of failing, being
criticized, working hard, etc. The excuses vary. Self-help books possess a lot
of great knowledge, but if people actually followed the advice they read,
every self-help writer would be out of a job. I once read through a few books
but never took initiative to change anything in my life. Then I stumbled upon
"Think and Grow Rich" by Napoleon Hill, and it was so effective at changing my
attitude that I've never bothered to read any more self-help books or blogs
afterwards.

~~~
itmag
I don't think it's willpower that really determines things. Willpower is the
ability to resist a cookie or do your homework even though you don't want to.
I don't have a lot of willpower myself :)

I think self help comes down to willingness to learn and willingness to
change. Simple, but hard to do consistently.

One thing that will massively improve one's chances is getting a Mastermind
Group (which is a concept from Think and grow rich, IIRC).

------
SonicSoul
ha.. i love this. being an ex self-help junkie myself, i did at some point
come to a conclusion that while it helps to feel better, no actual work is
getting done while improving "the system".

I feel like i owe a lot to self-help. Coming from a place where i was
operating at 0-5% efficiency, it's a miracle i was able to make any progress
in my career

SH REALLY helped me debunk some limiting beliefs i imposed on myself and
ultimately find a happier state of being although that took a lot of hard
work.

to me, SH was not a quick solution, but a slow progress, where each year i'd
get a little bit better with seemingly not noticeable differences, but
multiply that over 5 years, and the difference is huge.

not to say that one could not figure all of this stuff out on their own, if
they only stopped to think every day about how to get where they want to go.
Unfortunately most people don't think about such things.. and as Brian Tracy
put it, most people throw themselves at life like a dog chasing a car :)

Anyways, over the time, i slowly transitioned my energy into doing productive
things vs reading about doing productive things.. but form time to time i stil
re-read some of the old classics and usually get those "oh yeah! i forgot
about this" moments because there really is a sea of great advice buried in SH
genre.

------
Tichy
Hm, self-help books don't work, except if they are good? Seriously?

I am currently reading the 59 seconds book because I found it in a lesswrong
article. It is OK, but it doesn't solve all problems (it only covers some
techniques). The human psyche is a complex thing, "just get to work" is simply
not going to be enough for everyone.

------
nickswan
If you like 59 seconds I'd also recommend the Happiness Advantage. Also based
on scientific results and studies:

[http://www.amazon.com/Happiness-Advantage-Principles-
Psychol...](http://www.amazon.com/Happiness-Advantage-Principles-Psychology-
Performance/dp/0307591549)

------
victorbstan
I think this post was already on HN a couple of months back... is there a way
to check for sure?

~~~
ronnier
I assume you asked this to see if anybody would help you.

[http://www.hnsearch.com/search#request/all&q=Nobody%27s+...](http://www.hnsearch.com/search#request/all&q=Nobody%27s+Going+to+Help+You%2C+and+That%27s+Awesome)

~~~
victorbstan
I guess HN should hire the StackOvorflow guys to help them with an algorithm
to automatically find articles already submitted... ;)

------
deepkut
First time I've seen this book anywhere, may check it out. I recommend the
Happiness Hypothesis. Whether the theories in it are true or not, they're
incredibly well developed arguments.

------
rubergly
Has anyone read the Kindle edition of the 59 Seconds book linked to in the
article? Trying to decide if it's worth buying.

~~~
gjm11
I've read the paperback and it's good. I can't see why the Kindle edition
would be much different: there's scarcely any fancy formatting or anything.

(By "good" I mean: so far as I can tell the science Wiseman reports is
correct; the material is interesting; I haven't tried enough of the concrete
advice to have strong anecdotal opinions about how well it works[1]; the
quality of the writing is perfectly decent. If you are in the market for
either reasonably-scholarly popular psychology or self-help, you should
probably get it.)

[1] We see here a concrete example of one reason why self-help books generally
don't work.

------
billpatrianakos
Self-help doesn't work for a lot of reasons. It's funny how one self help
method or book will help one person but not another. I hate the pseudoscience
crap that passes for self help but Im not sure if just having a basis in fact
and researched science is enough. Sometimes people just _feel_ better when
they attend a bullshit lecture by a self help author because of their
charisma.

I'm reminded of a guy who I almost worked for to build a website for his self
help career. He told me he didn't have a degree in psychology but was a
college grad. He would get his hands on real scientific research by real
psychologists and then translate it into layman's terms and sell the results
in the form of blog subscriptions, seminars, and ebooks. He pretty much told
me point blank that he and many others were full of BS and doing what anyone
who can read at a high school or college level can do. He also said that for
him and his colleagues it was all about the money. It really upset me.

I'm totally sure what my point is but I do know that just because a ton of
people get burned by self help it doesn't mean none of it works. And I've seen
some BS self help books actually help people too. The post is right on for the
most part but I'm not sure why. There seem to be some variable we're missing.

~~~
itmag
"Self-help doesn't work for a lot of reasons."

Okay, so what is the proper way to live then? To be miserable, not try to
transcend one's limitations, never seek to improve oneself, etc?

It may seem like I'm arguing against a strawman here, but I am genuinely
curious to hear your POV :)

~~~
qohen
> Okay, so what is the proper way to live then?

Some (very) old school answers in:

"The Meditations of the Emperor Marcus Aurelius Antoninus":

About the book (including some pithy quotations):

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meditations>

Get it here free, in a variety of formats:

<http://www.manybooks.net/titles/aureliusetext01medma10.html>

Also here (Long's translation):

<http://classics.mit.edu//Antoninus/meditations.html>

<http://classics.mit.edu//Antoninus/meditations.mb.txt>

~~~
itmag
I've read most of that book, and I do agree that having
equanimity/unreactiveness is a worthy life goal.

------
suivix
The way I see it is the neurons in your head are going to do what they're
wired to do. You can't change physical law, and any amount of success or
failure won't change your brain structure. Your perception of the world is
essentially constant. You don't need help being a person any more than a dog
needs help being a dog. Just exist and do whatever.

~~~
KenjiCrosland
MRI scans of accomplished meditators have shown significant changes in brain
structure, as do players of certain video games. People do change--whether or
not that's a matter of free will is a discussion you'll never reach the end
of.

~~~
suivix
Although it changes it is still in the human range, close to your original
personality, and the delta is negligible. Your brain is essentially the same.

~~~
KenjiCrosland
I'm not a neuroscientist so I won't argue that point. I think as far as self-
improvement and personal growth is concerned, however it seems that at least
on a surface level that people can alter their behavior. Again, whether they
are hard-wired to do so because of brain structure I don't know.

