
Don't trust nice people in business - dumbfoundded
https://www.atlassquats.com/post/don-t-trust-nice-people-in-business
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soneca
> _" Let's step back and define nice. A nice person is one who tries to get
> you to like them"_

That's not my definition of nice, so I realized there was no point in reading
the rest of the text (if the clickbaity title wasn't enough of a hint already)

~~~
dumbfoundded
How would you define nice?

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soneca
To use your own words, people who are _" decent in actions and general
respectfulness"_ would be a better phrasing.

The way you define I would only consider nice those who are genuinely kind to
me. If it's not genuine, they are not nice, just pretending to be nice. So, by
(my) definition, I would trust nice people in business.

~~~
dumbfoundded
I think your definition is fair. I based mine on the dictionary.com definition
which is pleasant, agreeable.

I don't feel that these traits overlap with honesty, respect, and decency.

There are positive traits that are easy and cheap and ones that are expensive
and hard. Compliments are cheap and easy so I don't trust when people use them
in the course of a sales conversation. Trust and respect are hard and
expensive.

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lbj
And conversely: If you're not nice I'll never do business with you.

But I do take his point: If someone is active attempting to manipulate you
using 'pretend' friendship, then that is a flag. Not red, yellow perhaps.

~~~
6510
or pink!

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__s
HN Discussion of author's blog post from last week, "Not being an asshole will
make you more money":
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22504897](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22504897)

~~~
dumbfoundded
Nuance is important. You can be a mean asshole and a nice asshole.

You can also be a mean, decent person and a nice, decent person.

My goal is to get people to look at things that matter like respect, decency
in actions rather than the surface level features we associate with them.

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CiPHPerCoder
> A nice person is one who tries to get you to like them. They want to be
> friendly and [amicable].

Most people who have ever talked to me in a professional setting would
probably describe me as "nice".

I don't give two flying fucks if people like me. I'm not trying to be friendly
or amicable.

 _I 'm nice because I'm not weak._

I should elaborate.

There are a lot of shitty people in the world, and they come from all walks of
life. Having grown up in a low-income family in a low-income area in Florida,
I learned very quickly that the worst humans have one trait in common: They
cannot help but confuse _kindness_ for _weakness_.

Enter me. I'm a direct communicator. I will stand up for my beliefs and
values. I will enforce my own personal boundaries, as well as anyone I'm
working with, to the best of my ability. (e.g. Want to co-opt a meeting to
drop something on a team member, without consulting them about their schedule?
Hell no.)

I choose to be nice not because I want to benefit more from a transaction. I
choose to be nice because it subverts the expectations of the shittiest humans
while making life more pleasant everyone who's not shitty. Game theory 101.

> Every single person I've ever met has a dark side. You find it eventually.
> Watch out for the people that hide their dark side as long as possible. Or
> even worse, pretend they don't have one.

> No one is perfect. Everyone has anger, fear, sadness, shame, and a host of
> other negative qualities.

If someone is hiding their "dark" side--unless they're also something super
terrible like a serial killer or sexual abuser--chances are they only do so
because they've learned through painful experience to not be vulnerable.
People can and will take advantage of them.

Which means: If you find someone who is "hiding" their "dark" side... they're
actually showing you their own insecurity, and thus some of their dark side.

If they continue to hide it from you, maybe you're coming across as
judgmental?

People are complicated. It costs nothing to just be nice.

~~~
dumbfoundded
I like the balance you achieve. There's a big difference in what you put out
into the world and what you let the world do to you.

I highly value respect, politeness, and decency. Interactions with other
people shouldn't suck by default. I actually try to be nice.

I just place no value on others being nice to me. I care much more about do
they treat me with respect and decency? Are they honest?

I believe valuing "nice" in and of itself in others is exposure to shitty
people. If you value people simply because they are nice, some of them will
inevitably take advantage of you.

~~~
CiPHPerCoder
> I just place no value on others being nice to me. I care much more about do
> they treat me with respect and decency? Are they honest?

Anyone who's been in The South for an appreciable length of time won't need to
hear this, but it's totally possible to be "nice" while also being a jerk.

Respect and honesty go a long way towards productive conversations.

~~~
dumbfoundded
I don't know much about the South but I agree.

Respect and honesty are slow to earn and easy to lose. Nice is something you
can turn on and off with no cost.

Some of the most honest, wonderful, and smartest people I've met have sharp
edges. Especially on first impression.

~~~
JohnFen
> Nice is something you can turn on and off with no cost.

OK, this confirms that I have a different definition of what makes a "nice
person". Nice isn't something you can turn on and off with no effort. Nice
isn't even always the same as pleasant.

So, I'll bow out of commenting on this, as we're not really speaking the same
language. My apologies for the confusion this may have caused in my comments.

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xtiansimon
I love discussions of language. IMHO, when you play this game of claiming word
misuse, you have to draw a distinction with the other words you feel are more
appropriate. The words you mean when you say the other word.

Then the claim would be ‘polite’ and ‘respectful’ are what people really mean
when they say someone is ‘nice’.

I like it! Nice wants to be your friend. We all need friends.

I agree ‘respect’ is a quality I appreciate, and ‘disrespect’ is an aggressive
attitude. Suggests a power imbalance.

But ‘polite’? Is it specifically required in business? Retail, certainly
helps. What do you have when someone is polite, but ‘unfair’?

Or how about when someone acts ‘respectful’, but they ignore the details of
what you’re saying? At that point ‘clarity’ is more important.

And I like it when people get to the point. Too much ‘respectful’ and ‘polite’
talk can just be word salad working to confuse the issues. (Some offshore
customer service people say things like, _I understand your concern_ or, _i
understand how frustrated you must feel_ but do they? Or are they just trained
to say that?)

I’m in business services, so we value brief and pointed conversations.

But who is fooled by ‘nice’ anyway—work colleagues and associates are not your
friends. You didn’t choose who you work with. You can become friends, but at
the end of the day who’s going to quit their job, or willingly lose money to
be your friend?

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_aleph2c_
I think you can put more weight on "nice" being just nice if you are going to
be working in a partnership with that person for a long time, and they have a
reputation of working in longer term relationships. But if you are signing up
for a short duration, by all means be skeptical.

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Zigurd
I'm not a secret asshole, but secretly I'm sarcastic and even snide. My idea
of humor is sometimes obscure and hard to get. That's hardly ever good in
business communications, so I hide it. I'm nice.

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syndacks
There's something incredibly perverse about this; that business is inherently
about exploiting others.

You don't hear similar advice in medicine, education, entertainment, politics,
etc. Sure, you can manipulate people at any juncture in life, in any industry.
But business? Capitalism? "Fuck you", basically.

~~~
dumbfoundded
Education and medicine, in particular, are fraught with corruption and value
extraction.

How does a $2 trillion education loan bubble form if colleges aren't pushing
worthless degrees? How are medical emergencies the number one cause of
bankruptcy in the US?

