
The fight over transparency in the meat industry - triplesec
http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2016/10/09/magazine/meat-industry-transparency-fight.html
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tjic
As I mentioned in another thread, I live on a farm.

(I hack Ruby and C++ as a day job, the farm is just a hobby).

One major reason for doing so is animal welfare. I'm a meat eater and will
staunchly defend it...but factory farming is terrible.

At this point we get most of our meat from our own pastures: chicken, goat,
lamb, pork.

It's much more expensive than buying factory farmed meat, and even more
expensive (in labor, if not dollars) than shopping at Whole Foods. It is
wonderful, however, to not merely know that the animals are being treated
well, but to watch them every day, enjoying their animal lives: chickens
pecking at the pumpkins and squash we grow and feed them, pigs rolling around
and enjoying themselves in the mud, sheep chewing contentedly in the pasture.
And, of course, at the end of the season, when it's time to turn living
creatures into meat, doing it yourself ensures that it's done well, and with
minimal stress and pain.

This lifestyle isn't for everyone, but for those who are interested in it,
it's becoming more and more possible because of remote work (and soon,
driverless cars).

Pictures of processing one of three 500+ lb pork carcasses below:

[https://goo.gl/photos/6rzXQXL23esitdh76](https://goo.gl/photos/6rzXQXL23esitdh76)

[https://goo.gl/photos/gZqXZ2ENXfNZv9xL9](https://goo.gl/photos/gZqXZ2ENXfNZv9xL9)

(Btw, I'm in civilization, on a client site, today. I packed my lunch, as I
always do. It was pulled pork and home-made cole slaw. The pork came from that
very critter in the above photos.)

If anyone has any questions about the farm life, feel free to email me. My
user name @ my user name . com

~~~
pillowkusis
you seem concerned with animal welfare, or at least the minimization of
suffering; how do you justify willfully killing animals (which undoubtedly
creates suffering)?

~~~
sambobeckingham
Humane killing, I imagine?

Stun gun or that bolt hammer thing right to the brain, over in a flash as far
as the animal is concerned.

Far more pleasant than the natural way - 6 of us chasing it round the prairie
chucking spears.

~~~
Falling3
Just because it's better than "the natural way" doesn't make it humane. How is
the idea of humanely killing someone unnecessarily who wants to live not an
oxymoron?

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grandalf
It would be one thing if someone sneaking into a factory farm and filming the
operation were subject to the same penalties as someone sneaking into any
other business, but due to the horrific nature of what goes on, laws have been
passed that result in significantly harsher penalties for secretly obtaining
footage of the farms.

We should all be able to see what goes on in our prisons, in our concentration
camps (Gitmo, etc.), in our Zoos, schools, and factory farms... anywhere there
are basic concerns about abuse of power and suffering.

The various industries that support secrecy in these systems (government,
entrenched businesses, etc.) will fight to claim that secrecy is needed,
mainly so that their practices will not be deemed atrocities.

~~~
josho
I couldn't believe that there would be special laws for filming agriculture..
It seems I'm wrong. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ag-
gag](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ag-gag)

Of note:

\- prohibits "entering an animal or research facility to take pictures

\- crates a "terrorist registry" for those convicted under the law

Fortunately it seems primarily only in the US and in a minority of states.

~~~
Falling3
The animal ag lobby is strong here unfortunately.

~~~
finid
The interesting thing, is that the laws are being passed by your elected
officials, not a lobby group. Yes, I know the lobby groups bribe the
lawmakers, but why do voters allow that to happen?

Why not take those lawmakers to task?

Voters don't seem to care, really.

~~~
josho
If you read the Wikipedia link above the law was written by the lobbyists.
It's up to the elected officials to take the time to write their own bill or
they may simply work from the lobbyists draft.

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dbg31415
I grew up on a ranch.

Watched my dad slaughter cows, chickens, rabbits, goats... watched him put
down old / injured horses, dogs, and cats. When I got old enough I helped.

Hardest time was killing and butchering a steer I had trained, and showed in
4H. I think I was like 12 at the time, but you work with an animal all
summer... get it trained to follow you around and not pull on the halter...
and then the reward is someone buys it to kill it. I ended up being vegetarian
for a few years in high school after that.

Anyway my only point here was... nobody, and I mean nobody including the PETA
activists, cares more about the animals than the ranchers who raised them. One
time we were slaughtering a steer and the guy shooting the animal was a
dumbass who shot the animal 3 times in the wrong places. Animal was angry,
scared, hurt. Dad saw what was going on, jumped the fence as fast as he could,
grabbed the gun from the guy, smacked him hard in the face with the gun
handle, and then put the animal down as quickly as he could.

Dad then yelled at the hired man, using the harshest words I had ever heard at
the time, and told him to get lost and never come back. Dad pulled out his
wallet and threw some money on the ground to settled up with the man, then
just turned his back on him. I'm pretty sure Dad broke the guy's nose, the
amount of blood coming off his face was a pretty good indicator of how mad Dad
was that he wouldn't show respect to the animal.

Similar time, we had been invited over to help a neighbor, and the neighbor's
grown son was trying to put a steer down and mistakenly put bird shot in the
shotgun instead of a slug -- Dad took the shotgun away from the man. Put the
animal down quickly, and then Dad yelled at his neighbor (a man he had known
for 20+ years) about what a dipshit his son was. We left and never talked to
that neighbor again -- pretty harsh considering we only had about 5 neighbors
within 20 miles of us.

Factory slaughter houses are different, but if you can buy meat from a local
rancher who slaughtered the animal himself you can be fairly sure he did the
job humanely.

~~~
adamnemecek
If only all of this were unnecessary. Oh wait...

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adamnemecek
I think that fundamentally this is just a sign of people realizing that the
meat industry can't ever be ethical. I'm expecting society to become maybe 50%
vegetarian/vegan in the next couple of decades.

~~~
kbenson
How is cultured meat unethical? Sure, it's uneconomical at this point, but I'm
not sure how it's unethical. You could even go so far as to culture your own
cells, and eat meat derived from yourself. That would be somewhat unappealing
to most people (at least with current cultural taboos and stigmas), but I'm
not sure how that could be seen as unethical.

~~~
1457389
You need serums and growth media derived from animals. Not derived as in
scraping a few cells with a spatula but as in grinding up foetuses into fetal
calf serum, or the like. Synthetic media are nowhere near as cheap or
effective, at least from what I remember working in biomed research a couple
years back.

~~~
kbenson
> Synthetic media are nowhere near as cheap or effective, at least from what I
> remember working in biomed research a couple years back.

That's an argument against the current capabilities of the technology, not
against the concept itself. Given that I raised the possibility of eating your
own cultured meat right after that, I think it's fairly obvious I'm not
limiting the discussion to current technology (also since it's not
economically feasible at the moment). But given cultured meat grown in a
synthetic medium, are there ethical questions that I'm not accounting for? I
can't think of any, so this _may_ be a counter to the argument in the GP
statement that "the meat industry can't ever be ethical."

~~~
1457389
Agreed, if there was a way to grow them on synthetic media then we can do away
with just about all of the negative externalities of livestock farming.

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wmil
What's really interesting is that slaughterhouses are major users of H1B
visas.

~~~
titanomachy
I guess there aren't enough Americans who are willing to do soul-crushing
unskilled labour for minimum wage.

~~~
WalterSear
Slaughterhouse jobs correlate with increases in PTSD, domestic violence and
violent crime. "Contracting out" the cognitive dissonance of causing suffering
and misery has consequences to all involved.

[https://www.google.com/search?q=slaughterhouse+workers+domes...](https://www.google.com/search?q=slaughterhouse+workers+domestic+violence&oq=slaughterhouse+domes&aqs=chrome.1.69i57j0l2.6644j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8)

~~~
jonah
And RSI.

In the chicken processing plants near where I grew up, the workers were
expendable. You're worked hard until you get injured and then
discarded/fired/pushed out and replaced.

------
finid
_Beef commands a premium if it is labeled “grass-fed” or “naturally raised,”
but the Department of Agriculture withdrew oversight of those terms in January
and no longer verifies such claims. Even in cases where the U.S.D.A. does
certify labels, the rules can be slippery. The term “humanely raised,” for
example, has no standard definition, and the U.S.D.A. does not conduct site
visits to confirm enforcement for those approved to use the label._

In other words, the industry has been given the power to police itself. What
could possible be wrong with that?

The USDA is supposed to be monitoring these guys, but is now working with them
to make sure that no monitoring takes place.

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newscracker
This can be put quite simply - ethics has several monetary costs that being
unethical skips. That gets reflected in the prices consumers see. People are
used to opting for cheaper things and don't get to know the hidden costs to
others involved (human and non-human). As long as more people aren't willing
to vote with their wallets (at the minimum) and also consider changing their
habits and lifestyle (even gradually, if not overnight), there's not much hope
for improvement.

Talking only about humans, without changes in habits, there's a lot more human
suffering waiting in the future due to environmental issues, health issues,
lack of food, lack of fresh water, etc. (many caused by or made worse by
animal agriculture). As always, those will affect the poorer people
disproportionately. Those who care about humans and are privileged enough to
choose things in life could do a lot more, even if it's one habit a day that
builds up over time.

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kbenson
With uBlock enabled some script that removed the semi-transparent white
overlay doesn't get loaded, so the article presents as faded and hard to read.

I mention this to help people figure out what's going on, and let people that
see it make an informed decision whether to visit, _not to start a discussion
on the merits of this practice._

 _Please_ , that discussion has been done to death. People have very strong
convictions, _strongly_ held, which is not a recipe for a useful discussion.

~~~
e40
Re: uBlock problem: you need to allow the nyt.com domain, then it works fine.

~~~
happyslobro
Or inspect element and delete the overlay. Same effort, less surrender.

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sedachv
A good place to start with transparency in the meat industry would be
mandatory cancer warnings, like tobacco products are required to display:

[http://who.int/features/qa/cancer-red-
meat/en/](http://who.int/features/qa/cancer-red-meat/en/)

------
triplesec
related:
[http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2016/10/09/magazine/obama...](http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2016/10/09/magazine/obama-
administration-big-food-policy.html)

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totony
Maybe I'm a psycho, but it's interesting how pity and empathy extend to all
living beings for some (most?) people

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marcoperaza
My concern for animal welfare ends when it imposes any significant burden on
human interests. Billions of people want cheap meat, so let's make sure they
keep getting it.

~~~
teach
How about climate change? Producing staggering quantities of meat is
responsible for an awful lot of greenhouse gas emissions and uses a ton of
fossil fuels.

~~~
marcoperaza
That is certainly a human interest.

