
Ask HN: Why are software engineering salaries in the U.K. so low? - chatmasta
According to glassdoor, salaries are typically in the £30-40k per year range for software engineers. This is obviously very low by US standards, where the average is closer to $100k (£80k).<p>Does anyone have any insight as to why this is?
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richardknop
As mentioned below most in demand devs end up contracting for 500-700 per day
which can add up to 150-180k per year or more if you keep working like a full
time job.

Permanent jobs have low salaries, there are rare exceptions or perm roles with
100-120k range but those are hard to find.

I believe there are probably several reasons for this.

1\. Labour laws and regulations. Once you hire a perm employee in U.K. and
they pass the probation period, it is very very difficult to fire anybody with
current laws. So companies don't want to pay high salaries and then they won't
be able to easily get rid of a poor employee.

2\. Demand. There is probably less tech industry in U.K. compared to banking
and financial services.

3\. Probably also a perception problem. Software engineering is not seen as a
good job comparable to lawyer, doctor or banker. So engineering profession is
not respected and companies don't think engineering jobs are worth more than
30-40k.

~~~
switch007
> Once you hire a perm employee in U.K. and they pass the probation period, it
> is very very difficult to fire anybody with current laws.

Which laws? The probation period seems to be quite diversionary for the
employee - I know quite a few people who think that when they pass probation
they're "safe".

If you were employed after April 2012, the law prohibits you taking your
employer to a tribunal for unfair dismissal unless you've been employed for 2
years (except for discrimination).

More importantly, and far less discussed in all the HR/labour blogs on the
web: in my experience and circles companies now make you quit by, for example,
forcing a change in working requirements you can't meet, tearing up your old
contract (and presenting a new one with worse terms), making changes to your
job and so on.

> 3\. Probably also a perception problem. Software engineering is not seen as
> a good job comparable to lawyer, doctor or banker. So engineering profession
> is not respected and companies don't think engineering jobs are worth more
> than 30-40k.

That I agree with, especially if the company's main product/service isn't
software.

~~~
J-dawg
Indeed, I wish we could get rid of this idea that it's so hard to fire people
in the UK, and stop using it to justify low pay.

Before that 2 year milestone you can basically be summarily dismissed. The
probation period is meaningless.

After 2 years it's harder, the employee would be able to bring a claim for
constructive dismissal for the examples you give.

IANAL, but I have personally witnessed people being fired from a small
business. None of them had done anything especially terrible.

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guilhas
Easy. I am from Portugal. My salary there was 10k year for a developer
starting. We do not have any restrictions to move and work to the UK, so I did
it. When I got here recruitment an agency offered 21k and some other company
offered 30-35k, but if I accepted 25k it was done deal. And the average online
was arround 25k, so I accepted 25k for me it was great anyway. Another British
developer got in at the same time, for the same position, and some time after
I asked his salary, it was 43k. TLDR So my conclusion is cheap EU labor.

~~~
BjoernKW
So, why only the UK then?

Could be that it's cheap EU labour combined with an English-speaking society.

Then again, you could work as an engineer without ever having to speak the
local language in the Netherlands and Germany as well (to some extent, not all
companies are amenable to non-native language speakers but I suppose most
modern tech companies are).

What about Ireland? From cursory research engineering salaries there don't
seem to be significantly different from continental Europe.

My guess is it's more about the dominance of the banking sector and its
business culture, which doesn't really value engineering. After all, in
banking IT often still is a mere cost centre, a necessary means to run the
'real' business.

~~~
guilhas
Maybe, finace ppl are very cocky.

Almost everyone in EU learns English right after kindergarten. And then
movies, tv series, online mmorpg, internet stuff, English is everywhere. I
would have preferred to go to Finland, Germany, Denmark, Sweden, where I would
be able to advance my education for free. And although UK was easier to manage
in several aspects, I was ok to go to a anywhere else, buy my girlfriend (with
a job in other area) was not.

Ireland does a lot international recruitment, going to EU universities to get
ppl.

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nkkollaw
If you feel bad about that, you should check out salaries in Italy.

I don't know how good this data is, but from experience I can tell you that an
average salary is 15-20k after taxes:
[http://www.payscale.com/research/IT/Job=Sr._Software_Enginee...](http://www.payscale.com/research/IT/Job=Sr._Software_Engineer_%2F_Developer_%2F_Programmer/Salary)

~~~
eb0la
It's almost the same in Spain. And freelancing is not an option here:
companies try to pay you the same as a regular employee but without benefits,
or they want to hire you full time for half the rate.

~~~
scalesolved
I didn't find too much of a difference between the UK and Barcelona. Outside
of Barcelona and Madrid though I imagine the difference is quite vast.

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J-dawg
I asked about this about once before, and I thought the comment from
dfraser992 [0] was interesting.

> the UK, culturally, regards software engineers or those similar to be little
> more than educated manual labor. You're not in management, so you're labor.

I agree there is a pronounced two-tier culture in British business. In most
companies, confidence and leadership are seen as more important qualities than
technical excellence.

Ultimately software development is seen as a cost to be minimised wherever
possible.

[0]
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10987583](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10987583)

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teddyuk
Dev jobs in the U.K. tend to be very skills focused so a devops engineer with
ansible, could easily get up to £90k.

There are also a lot of terrible devs and £30-£40 is about the right mark and
lots of companies will hire people who are rubbish because they don't know
better and don't really care.

Most people who are any good go contracting and earning £150k is no problem,
if you choose to work at least 43 weeks. There are typically people who
contract because they are good and also people who do lots of <=3 month
contracts who are not so good and will earn less but still decent money.

IT has really given many many people the opportunity to earn significant
amounts of money that they wouldn't have been able to otherwise - 150k for a
couple of years experience and no schooling, what profession is better than
that??

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vthallam
I have no formal data, but salaries in general are mostly about the demand for
certain skill set.

In the US, there are more tech companies which are fighting for the talent
than it's in UK.

Also, 100K entry level is norm only in NY and California, the rest of the US,
its around $70K.

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alimw
Until very recently, $100k was worth more like £60k.

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lgieron
In-demand devs do contracts instead, which pay very well.

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eb0la
Take a look at itjobwatch.co.uk - they say 90% of "Developer" positions have a
salary greater than 30K GBP. This if for permanent positions.

For contracting, 90% of contractors have a 300GBP daily rate ( 300 * 22
days/month * 11 months/year = 72600GBP/year if you are fully booked for the
year)

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Davidbrcz
You can not just compare raw figures. You have to take into account other
expenses such as housing (which can be tremendously high in some US areas such
as SF/Bay area), health insurance, retirement plan,...

Once all expenses are taken into account, I think that US salaries are higher
but not _that_ higher.

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eb0la
It's about market culture.

US companies _tend_ to build products so developer wages have high returns and
wages might be higer.

European companies _tend_ to sell software development services to third
parties. Services are expenses without associated income and companies tend
keep their operational expenditure (opex) under control...

~~~
guilhas
Agreed most of jobs are to support a business, not the business itself.

