
Spin wants to bring dock-less bike sharing to the US - yurisagalov
https://techcrunch.com/2017/01/25/spin-wants-to-bring-dock-less-bike-sharing-to-the-us/?
======
vcarl
Hey, I tried to do this! I was CTO of a little student startup called A2B
Bikeshare for a while. We called it "stationless" though :)

We got a prototype working with a custom Android device with touch, 3g, GPS,
and built in credit card swiper in Lansing MI, but ultimately we b it off more
than we could chew. The team collapsed in mid 2015, and the company was just
recently completely shuttered. It's validating to see a more skilled team put
together a solid product, but damn it would have been fun to be that team
haha.

Best of luck!

~~~
teh_klev
> It's validating to see a more skilled team put together a solid product

Don't put yourself down. It looks like the founders are reasonably well
financed, probably well connected, and of course the Bay area effect.

~~~
vcarl
No, I was in my early twenties, didn't know how to scope a project, didn't
know how to effectively push back on scope creep, and didn't really have the
technical chops for what we were attempting. I learned a ton and wouldn't make
the same mistakes again, but none of us had any prior startup experience.
These guys have a lot of startup experience, and being well connected is being
skilled at networking. I'm not being self deprecating, this team is
objectively more experienced than we were.

------
newy
Hello HN! I'm Euwyn, one of the co-founders of Spin (also, 2x YC alum). We're
excited about bringing the dock-less bikeshare model to our home city of SF.

I've lived in SOMA for years, and have always wanted to bike around, except:
(a) it was always a hassle to deal with a bike after going around town,
because I would inevitably end up Uber-ing somewhere after my first stop and
(b) my bikes would get stolen :(

Would love to hear any questions you guys had about the business, and look
forward to you guys riding our bikes soon.

ps. If you want to follow along or have any questions about Spin or startups
in general, I'm 'euwyn' on Whale and Snapchat.

~~~
gthtjtkt
> (b) my bikes would get stolen

This is why I don't ride a bike in Philadelphia. I don't know anyone here who
rides a bike and hasn't had it stolen _at least_ once.

The only way to guarantee your bike isn't stolen is to bring it inside, which
isn't an option at most workplaces. And even if it was an option it's a huge
hassle.

~~~
stdbrouw
Alternatively, buy a cheaper bike. Most folks in Belgium and the Netherlands
use bikes that are 50-100 euro, so if your bike gets stolen every couple of
years it's not that big of a deal.

~~~
mikekchar
When I was working in London, I was always worried about having my bike stolen
if I rode to work. Just before I moved back to Japan I started doing the math.
My train fare was 18 GBP per day to go a grand total of 30 km each way (22 km
as the crow flies). 18 GBP * 5 = 90 GBP per week. As long as I got my bike
stolen less than once a month, I could have had a reasonably decent commuter
bike and still come out ahead :-P By the time I realised it, I wasn't in good
enough shape to ride 60 km a day and I was just about to leave anyway.

~~~
closeparen
Even at 20mph, that's nearly 2 hours a day. What an insane amount of commute
time.

~~~
aembleton
I doubt you'd manage 20mph unless you jump red lights. My 10 mile commute in
Manchester takes 45 minutes mainly because of traffic and lights.

~~~
alexfoo
It really does depend on the route you take. I don't take the shortest route
as that involves lots more junctions, more lights and more conflict; my route
algorithm is mostly about minimising stress.

7 mile commute in London and analysis of my GPS tracklogs show that, on
average, I am stopped at 5 out of the 23 traffic lights there are on my
commute with only 3-4 minutes of stopped time on a 30 minute commute.

It's helped by long sections of nice wide road with few junctions where good
progress can be made. The best example of this is Battersea Bridge to Lambeth
Bridge (North side of the river) so going along Chelsea Embankment, Grosvenor
Road and Millbank, with Cycle Superhighway 8 between Chelsea Bridge and
Lambeth Bridge.

[ Sure this is only 14mph (compared to the ~20mph I'd do on the open road) but
I'm also on a much heavier bike hauling plenty of clothes/lunch/stuff to and
from work. It's still a good workout. The few times I've done it very early or
very late I've come a lot closer to 20mph as I'm not slowed up by traffic.

The OPs journey might also be 2/3 rural-ish roads where you can make good
progress, say closer to 25mph, and then the last 1/3 of the journey where
maintaining that speed without interruption isn't so easy. ]

------
FindMySocks
For those interested: over here in China (specifically Shanghai) is a massive
bike sharing war being fought, where the two largest incumbents have been
given well over $200m in investment money over the last year. The leading
brands are Mobike and Ofo, with around 4 other small competitors creeping in.

Mobike was started by an ex-Uber China manager, launched in Shanghai - whereas
Ofo had been developed as a bike sharing scheme in universities.

Mobike has GPS enabled, QR unlocked bicycles. Where as Ofo are not GPS enabled
and are unlocked with a simple analogue pin code bike lock.

If you want to know more, let me know.

~~~
rahimnathwani
Great summary. I started using Mobike+subway+Mobike to get to/from work after
Uber China stopped offering generous subsidies.

I use both Mobike and Ofo, depending on which is available.

Advantages of Mobike:

\- Map-based view of nearby bikes

\- Can reserve a bike for 15 mins, whilst you walk to it from wherever you are
(good if you're a couple of subway stops away)

\- Bikes are plentiful in most places I go

Mobike disadvantages:

\- Bikes take some effort to ride, perhaps due to a dynamo and the weight of
the electronics

Ofo advantages:

\- Bikes are light and easy to ride

Ofo disadvantages:

\- Need to wander around to find one, which takes time, even if the app tells
you there are some nearby

\- Quite common for an Ofo bike to be locked to something using a private
chain (i.e. someone has stolen it), and you don't know until you walk up to it

~~~
joss82
> \- Quite common for an Ofo bike to be locked to something using a private
> chain (i.e. someone has stolen it), and you don't know until you walk up to
> it

How about always carrying a metal saw with you?

~~~
rahimnathwani
You're not allowed to carry weapons or weapon-like things on the subway in
Beijing. There are x-ray machines at every entrance.

------
dsr_
The problem I've always had: what I want from a bikeshare is to be able to
exit the train station, grab a bike, bike the remaining kilometer or two to
work and drop the bike. Later in the day I want to do the same in reverse.

That only works in a hub program if there's a dock next to my office building.
(You can count on a dock being next to the train station.) Or I could pay for
all-day rental of the bike, when I'm only using it for two ten-minute periods.

In a dockless system, does it actually get any better for my use case?

~~~
benatkin
I also wouldn't be satisfied with solid tires.

~~~
nradov
Are solid tires really so bad if you're only going a few miles on asphalt at a
moderate speed? Seems better than risking a flat or under inflated tire. If
they have to send bike mechanics to change and inflate tubes all the time it
kind of kills the economics of bike sharing.

~~~
jessaustin
Are they solid, or spongey? Solid rubber would be quite heavy, and most riders
wouldn't like the rotational inertia.

~~~
Taniwha
they are actually full of holes look closely at the closest orange tire in
this pic

[http://d3nd7i493f0o21.cloudfront.net/assets/resized/img/bike...](http://d3nd7i493f0o21.cloudfront.net/assets/resized/img/bikes-0-600-0-800.jpg)

------
ucaetano
This has been available in Germany for 17 years, run by the rail company (DB):
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Call_a_Bike](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Call_a_Bike)

And some cities also have their own programs, such as Munich's MVG Rad
(E48/year for 30 min per day): [https://www.mvg.de/services/mobile-
services/mvg-rad.html](https://www.mvg.de/services/mobile-services/mvg-
rad.html)

~~~
amenghra
And there was a fun CCC talk about hacking them:
[http://www.ccc.de/en/hackabike](http://www.ccc.de/en/hackabike)

------
pouetpouet
Nextbike a german company offers station less bikeshare, or at least a hybrid
model, dockless within a central area and with stations outside.
[http://www.nextbike.de/en/locations/](http://www.nextbike.de/en/locations/)
zoom in on "red" locations like Köln or Karlsruhe.

~~~
awjr
Their sister company just created the first fully electric bike share
programme in Exeter, UK [https://www.co-bikes.co.uk/](https://www.co-
bikes.co.uk/) I think this is the key thing bike share programmes are missing
to get 'normal' people on board. Bicycles are great exercise, ebikes are
simply the quickest and easiest way to travel around cities.

Bath Hacked were able to get hold of the NextBike Bath hire data for the
scheme. Hire stations even on slight hills had significantly less usage. These
bikes are _heavy_ and people that rent them are not used to cycling. Lot of
people taking bikes from the station on the hill, but very very few to the
station. We also found a huge number of circular rides (back to the same
station) i.e. tourists/locals using them for leisure rides.

The following video shows all the rides by hour of day rides are taken
excluding circular hires. The station with very few rides is top right
("Sulis"). Note how there are a bunch of drunk students riding them back to
halls around 3am in the morning ;)
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4AfocuESnSg](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4AfocuESnSg)

Even if your city is flat, electric bikes will make a big difference to
uptake. The mistake people make is that the people that get the council to
implement these schemes are usually keen cyclists and are 'ok' with a bit of
strenous cycling. That is not 95% of your potential customer base.

PS: Would be good to see co-bike's hire data at some point and the impact
elevation had on hires.

~~~
masklinn
Dockless electrical seems like a drawback though, as chances become high your
undocked ebike is now just a heavier regular bike.

~~~
awjr
Sorry I was just commenting on the need to appeal to 'normal' people who find
the idea of cycling too much effort and too sweaty. Electric bikes need
docking stations but usually a charge will last at least 40 miles. More than
enough for a day.

~~~
masklinn
Oh don't misunderstand me, I fully agree that an ebike sharing service would
be significantly better (more convenient and comfortable and with larger
appeal in both flat and non-flat cities), I'm just saying I don't see how to
reconcile ebike services with dockless.

------
SimpleMinds
I would like to ask about what bothers me after trying such services in China
(stationless bikes), in Shenzhen:

How will you address annoying parking?

I've noticed that people in China really quickly realised how free is
"stationless" and you would see those bikes parked in middle of roads, in
middle of walking paths, dumped in bushes - just because you can. At one point
I saw some foreigner (so not to say only Chinese do it) arrive at Starbucks,
stop his bike just in front, lock it and go inside.

I found the idea really great but that kind of overtaking of shared space is
quite disturbing.

------
masonic

      Spin's bikes will be parked neatly all across the city
    

_Where?_

Have they arranged appropriate parking places / staging points on private
property? Or do they play to just lock bikes to sign poles and streetlamps?

Imagine the visual pollution of thousands of brightly-colored bikes strewn
around (or, worse yet, taking up capacity in bike racks that then limits their
use for individually-owned bikes).

Many cities have banned random newsracks on public thoroughfares for exactly
this reason (including S.F.).

~~~
jessaustin
Bicycles are beautiful objects. The appearance of most cities would be vastly
improved by a generous salting of colorful bikes.

~~~
mdrzn
Until there are too many.

~~~
jessaustin
Is this a slippery-slope argument? "You might not mind five bikes parked on
your block; what about a _THOUSAND_?" Five shared bikes on a block would
probably remove at least a couple of automobiles from the block, on average,
so I'm all for it! Presumably cars would disappear entirely well before we got
to a thousand shared bikes, so if we stopped then we'd be fine...

~~~
mdrzn
Five is ok, if there's a place meant to be the bike parking place.

If not, that's five bikes locked up to poles and street signals. What about a
hundred?

~~~
jessaustin
Does the block have 500 shared-bike riders present at any particular time?
Conservatively assuming that the average rider is riding an hour a day (which
would be 24:1), a 5:1 riders to bikes ratio is also a conservative assumption.
If there are that many riders, then by all means it's reasonable to have 100
bikes present as well. If there aren't enough poles and racks, the bike
company or the city can plant some more. It still won't cost near as much as
maintaining the streets.

------
mgberlin
Your bikes are going to be stolen, stripped, and scrapped.

~~~
cobbzilla
Hypothetical pie-in-the-sky thinking (not saying anyone is doing anything this
crazy today):

You park your bike and use your phone to "lock it".

Bike locks-in its GPS location. Any attempts to move it will trigger multiple
wide-angle/fisheye cameras to start recording and streaming to your phone
(also recorded).

Remotely, with your phone, you review the footage. At your command, the bike
can call the police to report a theft in progress, and reports its location as
quickly as possible in street address/intersection terms.

With another command, built-in loud-speaker also warns passersby that a theft
is in progress. The pleasant voice also encourages them to provide additional
video coverage of the thief, and (at the user's option) may promise a reward.
If the theft is thwarted, then the bike-savoir is can be rewarded (paypal,
bitcoin, whatever) by the bike owner, who has seen the whole thing happen on
camera, and the bike can use bluetooth/p2p to verify the that the
paypal/bitcoin recipient is indeed the person you just saw save your bike.

More fun: at your command, the bike can spray a thick mist of semi-
permanent/eventually-washable paint around itself; the exact color shade of
the paint spray would always be slightly different in every canister, so one
could precisely tie a bike to its thief, if they were perchance apprehended
before the getting out of their paint-soiled clothes.

Even more fun: Any/all of these features could also be configured to trigger
without any user intervention. For example, if (while locked) the bike detects
removal of parts like the seat, wheels, etc., I want it to call the police and
emit the paint spray.

At that point, if the bikes were clearly marked as having such technology, and
were not super-fancy carbon-fiber bikes but were basic, decent, rideable
bikes, then you have what "the club" effect brings to cars -- it becomes
obvious that they are not worth the effort, and thieving sticks to non-
hardened bikes.

You then get a ratchet-effect, like in a neighborhood with some crime, as soon
as one house gets bars on the windows, it won't be long before the whole block
does. Get ready for GPS and these kinds of features in every bike. It could be
fun, hopefully you can run Linux on these bikes :)

~~~
mgberlin
This is all predicated on the fact that police and passersby care about a bike
being stolen. My experience in San Francisco has shown this to not be true.

~~~
cobbzilla
This is why my approach is multi-pronged. Even if no bystanders intervene, you
still have to ask:

    
    
      * What kind of thief wants their theft to be video recorded?
      * What kind of thief wants a loudspeaker blaring to everyone about their thievery?
      * What kind of thief wants to risk getting covered in paint?
    

Even if the thief is really, really desperate, and doesn't care about these
things, surely there are easier bikes to steal that don't entail this level of
risk.

~~~
samcheng
You must not live in San Francisco.

Bike 'chop shops' operate in the open, disassembling stolen bikes outside the
many tents that line the streets in the Mission district. Here's a good
article on the problem: [http://archives.sfexaminer.com/sanfrancisco/fighting-
sfs-mob...](http://archives.sfexaminer.com/sanfrancisco/fighting-sfs-mobile-
bicycle-chop-shops/Content?oid=2816129)

Thieves will use 'angle grinders' to cut bike locks in broad daylight, on busy
streets. Here's an example video:
[https://www.reddit.com/r/sanfrancisco/comments/4fcy9y/sparks...](https://www.reddit.com/r/sanfrancisco/comments/4fcy9y/sparks_fly_as_bike_thief_grinds_through_lock/)

These bikes have an uphill battle before they will survive unmolested in San
Francisco, particularly the SOMA/Mission area. I wish them luck!

~~~
cobbzilla
I have lived in SF, and I have worked in SF for years, and I most recently had
a bike stolen last year, in FiDi, in broad-daylight. I know what it's like.

Thieves are smart and opportunistic. They're less inclined to steal a bike if
they know it is being tracked. SFPD in fact have used "bait bikes" on
occasion.

Go ahead and keep your attitude of smug resignation, that's entirely your
right. I refuse to believe that nothing can be done to combat this rampant
problem!

------
andrewmb
As another user mentioned, this idea (stationless bike share/rental) has been
white-hot in China since the past summer, with a lot of extreme incidents
occurring in the past couple months. The article doesn't exaggerate about 10ft
tall piles of bicycles. Vandalism is a major part of the competition between
companies as well--it is a regular sight (in Shenzhen) to see bikes with spray
paint over QR codes, falsely reported damage, missing seats, etc.

Overall, the system works extremely well and is super convenient, but Shenzhen
has very good public transportation to begin with and most of the sidewalks in
the city are very wide compared to those in San Francisco. Those are two of
the key things that have enabled this type of service to emerge and take off
in China--it's really just solving a "last-mile" problem of getting to a point
that's too far from a metro station to comfortably walk but not far enough to
take a cab.

------
colept
How is this better than docking stations?

I tried bike sharing and gave it up because the bikes were poorly maintained
and replaced with cheaper bikes (thanks Citibike). Bikes fail, sometimes
missing brakes, other times a flat tire.

Why are docking stations important? Because a couple times a week I notice the
company pull up with a trailer and maintain the bikes. They swap out the
broken ones and fill the stations.

Is Spin going to drive around the city tracking individual bikes to replace
them?

~~~
edavison1
I've been Citibiking since nearly the start and I prefer the new models.

Sometimes the brakes are bad, true, but I never pick one with a flat tire (of
course checking before I take it out) and I have to say I have gotten
tremendous utility from my membership. Sucks to see someone who didn't like
it.

I think your last point is pretty devastating and I don't see dockless bike
sharing ever reaching the grand scale of something like Citibike.

~~~
colept
The biggest source of conflict with Citibike is that they removed the feature
to report bikes as broken. So they take twice as long to be replaced.

Since then I've moved to a position where it's cheaper to have my own bike or
walk.

~~~
edavison1
I'm pretty poor but I've found having a bike AND Citibike is the real NYC
dream, worth every penny.

------
cjbenedikt
Has worked in Germany for years. Sponsored by Deutsche Bahn.

~~~
johansch
More details?

~~~
Xylakant
The DB has a bike-sharing offer (Call-a-Bike) as well as a car sharing offer
(Flinkster). Call-a-Bike used to be free-floating in a lot of locations, among
them Cologne and Berlin, but that changed to a station/dock based system a few
years ago. It's supposed to be changing back to free-floating again, at least
in Berlin.

The bikes all have a distinct build and color and a Box with a simple touch
display and a lock. Even before smartphones you could just text a number and
it would send an unlock code. To drop the bike off you'd lock it and call an
automated system to give it the displayed confirmation code. That was actually
pretty nifty, I liked and used it a lot.

The CCC did a tear down of one of the bikes
[https://www.ccc.de/en/hackabike](https://www.ccc.de/en/hackabike)

~~~
philfrasty
Definitely free-floating over here in Munich.

------
Eridrus
This reminds me of the April fools video Google put out about self-driving
bikes. It would be neat if self-driving bikes could go to where they were
needed.

~~~
amenghra
Self driving tricycles?

------
driverdan
We tried something similar a few years ago with Spokefly. We didn't own the
bikes, anyone with an extra bike could participate, and we didn't put GPS on
them. Users checked bikes in and out with their phone's GPS. There were
numerous problems and the company failed.

The market for our service wasn't big enough. If you owned the bikes I think
it would work better since sizes are consistent, they're easier to brand, etc.
That said it's really hard to make money on it when you're competing with
publicly subsidized bike shares and VC subsidized ride shares.

Phones _still_ don't work well. It was too easy for the GPS location to be
wrong or for users to have phone connectivity problems, causing a lot of
frustration. Our service was popular at big events where traffic was bad (eg
SXSW) but that's when cell service is the worst. If you rely on phones your
users will have problems.

------
rahimnathwani
"In China, kiosk-free bikeshare programs have proven almost as problematic as
they have popular. Riders have parked bikes in fire lanes..."

I've lived in China (Beijing and Shanghai) for 6+ years, and have never seen a
fire lane.

"And in some cases, towering piles of bikes have cause Chinese cities major
headache as they’ve blocked pedestrians, created an eyesore and a possible
safety hazard. (Imagine a bike falling from a ten-foot high pile, and landing
on your head?)"

What are they talking about? Are they suggesting that riders are parking bikes
on top of each other? How did the last rider place their bike on the top of a
"ten-foot high pile"? I haven't seen anyone tall enough to do that, in China
or anywhere else.

This whole paragraph seems totally made up.

------
bogomipz
Hamburg, Germany has an interesting bike program where there are docks but you
can also lock the bike up using a digital lock on the back wheel so if you
need to stop somewhere and there isn't a dock close by or you just don't feel
like returning it yet you can lock it up. I think this is a great option.

I wonder if cities will allow this competition among bike sharing. Some of
these bike programs have big corporate sponsors and the cynical side of me
imagines they might have an influence on whether cities allow new entrants to
the market.

------
rahimnathwani
"The MTC previously struck an exclusive agreement with Motivate and Ford ...
Disruptors who just enter the market without city approval would potentially
violate that agreement."

How could 'Disruptors' violate an agreement to which they're not a party?

------
basdevries
San Francisco seems like a terrible place to open up anything to do with
bicycles. Everyone will just ride down the hill, park the bike, and get an
uber later. Some poor asshole will have to take them all back up.

------
Piskvorrr
Check out [https://www.rekola.cz/en](https://www.rekola.cz/en) \- running on
the same principle since 2014, might have some ideas ;)

------
RandomMaker
This is a fantastic idea! Can't wait for it to go live :)

~~~
dko
Thanks for your support! Which city are you in? (And do sign up at
[https://spin.pm](https://spin.pm))

------
begotles123
this looks amazing!

------
kmicklas
There are already more Citi Bike docks in NYC than I feel like is necessary
for the service to be convenient. Within one block of my apartment there are
already 3!

~~~
jzwinck
Wow. Two of those could be removed. One to be replaced with a Duane Reade and
the other a Starbucks.

