
"It's A Brick" - Tesla Motors' Devastating Design Problem - degusta
http://theunderstatement.com/post/18030062041/its-a-brick-tesla-motors-devastating-design
======
noonespecial
Could this really not be prevented by a $10 microcontroller and a big-ass
relay to just disconnect the battery if it reaches a certain discharge state?

Even my iPhone can turn turtle to protect its battery when it gets too low.

Also how much power does it take to keep the damn thing plugged in? The
article indicates that a 100 foot extension cord isn't enough _just to break
even_ and the car discharges even when plugged in. A 100 foot cord of cheap 16
gauge wire can still supply almost 900 watts before the voltage drops below
100v. So it uses a kilowatt just to stand-by without even charging? That's one
hell of a power vampire.

I think maybe they should spend a bit more time on the fundamentals and a bit
less time on fancy bird-wing doors if they want to have a real product. The
real car of the future is just a big dumb tray full of indestructible nickle-
iron batteries and 4 wheel-hub motors bolted to the corners.

~~~
URSpider94
_Could this really not be prevented by a $10 microcontroller and a big-ass
relay to just disconnect the battery if it reaches a certain discharge state?_

Not necessarily. This might help, but the battery will also have self-
discharge, meaning that it can lose charge without being connected to any load
at all. If you get the charge down low enough, and then wait long enough, then
even a full disconnect from the system won't help.

~~~
wisty
You could add a $100 mobile phone, which auto-calls a service center. If 1% of
cars get "bricked", that's $10,000 per car saved, not including intervention
costs. Even with some false positives, it would be worth it. Of course, that
cost is carried by Tesla, not the customer.

"The Tesla manager called me to warn that my car was in trouble" is a much
better customer experience than "my Tesla broke down, and cost $40k to fix".

Cars used to have the same problems with oil changes. This got better, as
customers were educated (at the cost of a lot of cooked engines), and cars
were able to warn their owners, and run for longer without oil.

~~~
bri3d
That's _exactly what Tesla do_ , even once having gone so far as tracking the
car down via GPS and charging it themselves when the owner was unresponsive.

~~~
thebooktocome
Certainly that's going to peg some people's creepy meters.

~~~
toomuchtodo
As a Model S reservation holder, it pegs my pocketbook meter. If I'm about to
lose $40K on my car because of a battery, I have no problem with them showing
up in my driveway to charge the vehicle if necessary.

Creepy? I'm more worried about the app-of-the-day sucking down my iPhone
contacts. THAT I find to be more personal than my vehicle location.

~~~
shinratdr
IMO they're both creepy, and using one to justify the other isn't helpful.
Apple has already come out and admitted that was a mistake and they will be
rectifying it, so it doesn't really help your case much.

In both cases though it's not the action so much as it is the fact that you
weren't able to opt out of it, or in many cases you aren't even aware of the
possibility of it happening.

It's the same violation, and in both cases it's equally creepy. Apple got
called out and did something about it. What will Tesla do?

~~~
toomuchtodo
Tesla will have you sign a waiver: "We have the right to track your vehicle
location in the event you're about to kill your $40K battery."

I don't know anybody in their right mind who would say no to that.

------
jdietrich
Tesla are a sideshow and we desperately need to stop talking about them,
because they're harming efforts to improve energy efficiency.

Nissan are now in full production of the Leaf, a practical electric car that's
half the price of the Model S. Renault have the Fluence ZE on sale in Israel
and ready to go internationally this year. Mitsubishi are selling the i-MiEV
in quantity in Hong Kong and Japan.

All of these big, established car companies are doing it The Right Way -
targeting customers who already drive highly efficient city cars. These are
customers who predominantly drive short distances and who are used to driving
a small car with few luxuries and a relatively low-powered engine. They
understand the compromises necessary for efficiency. They're part of a car
culture that sees nothing unusual about a 1.2 litre diesel engine or a
turbocharged 900cc two-cylinder petrol engine. You can build these people a
lightweight, efficient car that they can afford and that they'll be happy to
drive.

Tesla are amongst the many upstarts who are doing it The Wrong Way. They're
trying to skip the necessary evolutionary steps a customer needs to make
before they will be happy with a battery electric car. They're trying to lure
people straight from heavy midsize cars and SUV crossovers, which is doomed to
failure. These customers just haven't entered the efficiency mentality. They
don't realise that efficient cars are noisier because they're not carrying the
weight of sound insulation. They're not ready to wind down the window on a hot
day to save the energy that AC would use. Tesla are trying to engineer around
culture and it's an expensive, flimsy mistake.

Sit it out, lobby congress to mandate improvements in diesel fuel quality and
higher fleet efficiency standards, beg manufacturers to send over the clever
little engines. Tax or shame SUV drivers into station wagons. Once you hear
people describing the Ford Focus as a large family car, you'll know you're
ready.

~~~
SeanLuke
> Tesla are a sideshow and we desperately need to stop talking about them,
> because they're harming efforts to improve energy efficiency.

Completely disagree. Tesla is, I think, unquestionably the most impactful
company in the game, including GE and Nissan. For two reasons.

First, before Tesla people thought of electric vehicles as ridiculous DIY golf
carts driven by treehuggers. They were utterly uncool and stupid. Post-Tesla,
electric cars are among the very coolest cars in the world. GE didn't do that.
Nissan didn't do that. Toyota didn't do that. Tesla did. I think fundamentally
changing people's perceptions of what an electric car is and what it can do is
the single most impactful action in the industry so far.

Second, Tesla's critical product isn't their cars. Their critical product is
their battery technology. It is second to none, in a business where the
battery is everything. This is _the reason_ that both Daimler and Toyota have
invested in the company. I think you are seriously underestimating how
important this is.

As to the article proper: it seems to me that running down your car is a
pretty simple problem to engineer away. This might be an issue, perhaps a burp
that Tesla has to get fixed pronto. But it's hardly, to use the breathless
headline, _devastating_.

~~~
arjunnarayan
> First, before Tesla people thought of electric vehicles as ridiculous DIY
> golf carts driven by treehuggers. They were utterly uncool and stupid. Post-
> Tesla, electric cars are among the very coolest cars in the world. GE didn't
> do that. Nissan didn't do that. Toyota didn't do that. Tesla did. I think
> fundamentally changing people's perceptions of what an electric car is and
> what it can do is the single most impactful action in the industry so far.

Sure, but that's the same as saying that Sun Microsystems changed the world.
Before Sun, people thought of C++ as the be all and end all of programming and
we were stuck without decent typesystems and helpful compilers. Microsoft
didn't change that. Nobody changed that. Sun did.

Look where they are now. Sure Tesla might have changed people's worldviews and
I'm grateful for that. But moving forward, that counts for nothing. I just
want the best damn electric car there can be. I'm not paying for changing the
narrative.

~~~
potatolicious
And that's the genius of it. _You_ are not paying to change the narrative -
but _lots of other people are_. Even if Tesla ends up a footnote in the
history of automotives, their impact will be felt for decades, just like Sun.

Whatever happens to Elon Musk's company, we are all better off, and for that I
wouldn't consider the money wasted.

And I don't think Tesla's death is really that certain. Remember that Apple
pioneered the unibody laptop chassis on the backs of wealthy early adopters
with the (ludicrously priced) MacBook Air, and now this technology is
available at commodity prices to everyone. The same model can very well work
here.

~~~
chucknelson
> Remember that Apple pioneered the unibody laptop chassis on > the backs of
> wealthy early adopters with the (ludicrously > > priced) MacBook Air...

Wow, I don't know if that is a good comparison. It's not like they were
$5k-$10k laptops or anything. "Ludicrously priced" seems a bit strong here..

~~~
shinratdr
You're both right, in a way.

It was priced closer to cost than most imagine (SSDs were still very expensive
at the time and it used much more expensive parts that were underclocked to
reduce heat buildup before Intel had good ULV processors) so a top of the line
1st generation MacBook Air ordered in the first three months of release would
cost you $5500. I know because I bought one for someone.

It was very expensive, but it wasn't ludicrously priced. Pioneering that CNC
technology wasn't cheap and if it didn't work out, that loss would have been
all because of the Air. You can consider it putting the burden on early
adopters, I see it as more people paying the actual product cost plus profit
like Apple always prefers. They aren't ones to launch something at cost if
they don't have to. They would rather move less units and instead make a
profit from day one.

------
URSpider94
A lot of people have picked at the "it won't charge through a 100-foot
extension cord" statement. While I have no idea if this particular statement
is true or not, it certainly wouldn't be unexpected behavior for a power
management system.

Modern charging and power conversion systems are designed to operate under
specific use cases. When the Tesla charger first sees line voltage, it likely
does some quick testing to see what kind of supply it's hooked up to, for
example by trying to take 15 Amps and monitoring the line voltage. If the
voltage sags too much, then it might back off to 12 Amps; after that, it
probably just shuts off. The reason is that all of the AC/DC conversion
circuitry is designed to operate with maximum efficiency at a certain input
power; if the system can't deliver that power, then it's just going to shut
down and assume that there's something wrong with the line.

Note, this does not mean that the battery requires 1kW continuous power to
stay charged. In plugged mode, the car will switch the charger on and off
every few minutes (if it's at all like a laptop or phone) and draw down the
battery ever so slightly in between. This is the most efficient way to
operate, and is much better for the battery than constantly stuffing it with a
trickle of current.

If you want to see this in action on a consumer electronics scale, try
plugging your iPad into the USB extension port on an iMac keyboard -- it will
kindly let you know that it's not charging, and it will happily sit there and
run its battery down to the cut-off point while plugged in.

~~~
noonespecial
This is a good point, but to use the iPad as an example, "not charging"
actually does in most cases charge very slowly. It takes what it can and
provided its in standby, this is usually enough to ever so slightly charge. In
the on position, it will discharge more slowly than battery alone.

The point is "optimal charge" or "complete destruction of the battery without
warning" might not be the only two, or best choices available. "The best we
can do with 500 watts" might be a better choice.

------
fleitz
Every laptop that uses a lithium ion battery should have this problem. Oddly
enough every laptop manufacture has included circuitry that cuts battery power
when it reaches 5% (when the OS reports 0% it's actually ~1-5%). Tesla should
have no problem fixing this, the onboard electronics will die anyway when the
battery dies so why not have them die a few hours earlier and allow 'recovery'
by charging the vehicle.

~~~
modeless
Batteries self-discharge, even when disconnected. 5% is probably not enough to
last months, especially if the car is exposed to high temperatures.

~~~
pkulak
So will my laptop "brick" also if I don't plug it in for a couple weeks?

~~~
modeless
Yes. If you completely discharge your laptop and then stick it in a closet for
a couple of months without charging it, the battery will likely be completely
unrecoverable. The exact amount of time it takes will depend on the battery of
course (and the ambient temperature).

------
pclark
My confusion with Tesla is this: around the rest of the world - outside of USA
- there are already _very_ fuel efficient automobiles. 60, 80, even 90 miles
per gallon are common and applauded in Europe.

America has the opposite approach and appears to optimise for size, comfort
and perceived safety. (SUVs, Trucks, large saloons.)

None of the things American consumers appear to value are correlated in the
Tesla. When I look at the Tesla brand, product and marketing, all I can think
is how popular this car would be in Europe. Just me? Why USA first?

~~~
cynicalkane
Euro testing cycles are more generous, MPG figures are quoted in Imperial
gallons (which are larger), and probably because of less dense cities they
tend to be more tolerant of smog belching diesels. Diesels are fuel efficient
but it's expensive to make them pollution efficient enough to pass American
regulations.

Many cars are the same in both countries. There isn't anything about America
that makes them less efficient. The exceptions are those tiny city cars that
Americans would never drive, and diesels.

~~~
CaptainZapp

      Euro testing cycles are more generous, MPG figures are quoted in Imperial gallons
    

I have never seen a MPG notation anywhere in Europe (possibly in the UK, but
certainly nowhere else).

Car efficiency is quoted by liters / 100 km just about everywhere around here.

Or am I missing something?

~~~
to3m
It is only in the UK. Nobody else uses miles, and the cutoff age for using
gallons is something like 40-50 (and rising).

------
newman314
"In at least one case, Tesla went even further. The Tesla service manager
admitted that, unable to contact an owner by phone, Tesla remotely activated a
dying vehicle’s GPS to determine its location and then dispatched Tesla staff
to go there. It is not clear if Tesla had obtained this owner’s consent to
allow this tracking5, or if the owner is even aware that his vehicle had been
tracked. Further, the service manager acknowledged that this use of tracking
was not something they generally tell customers about."

\--

That screams class-action to me if Tesla can really track without knowledge of
the owner AND will mean that I have absolutely zero interest in purchasing one
till this is addressed.

~~~
dusing
Yeah Tesla saved the guy 40k, how rude

~~~
jklp
I think it was more the fact that Tesla didn't tell their customers they had
GPS tracking equipment fitted to their vehicles.

If a service manager could access the location information I'd imagine quite a
few other staff at Tesla could too ...

~~~
Geee
I'm pretty sure they have been open about this. At least I remember reading
this somewhere on their website. I think it was part of their 'product
testing' program or something, where you would allow Tesla to track everything
to gather data for their purposes to make the car better.

------
yardie
I'm more impressed by people that spend $100k on a car and then don't know how
to take care of it.

Do you know what happens when an ICE engine is left to sit for months? First
the oil runs out to the pain and slowly evaporates. The cylinders might suffer
some sticktion and possibly rust. And you've probably got small animals that
have made a home in your engine block. The rubber in the tires will have
deformed and even if you get it running it will be a very bumpy ride to the
tire shop. Also the gas tank absorbs water if you live in a humid region like
Florida.

All of this is covered in the manual of every car I've ever owned. Drive it 5
minutes, at least, every few weeks to keep the lubricants lubricating or you
end up with a very expensive rebuild.

~~~
njharman
> people that spend $100k

People who spend that kind of money generally don't expect to have to do
anything for themselves. That is why they pay 10x more.

~~~
yardie
You can't get anymore minimal maintenance than an electric car. If you're not
using it leave it plugged in...and make sure your electric bill is paid up.

------
kulpreet
While a lot of this accurate and something to consider, the author of this
article fails to mention anything about Tesla's unique service/support model
that they plan to roll out with the Model S. Tesla also mentions a "five-
minute battery swap" available on their upcoming vehicles as well as "Tesla
Rangers" that will come to your vehicle in the event that it dies. It seems to
me like this is a small problem that the author is blowing out of proportion.

~~~
kalleboo
It seems this would be a small problem if Tesla informed their owners about it
clearly (and adding a decent status display to the car to warn when it's not
charging enough/how long until full battery depletion). As it seems now, Tesla
owners are liable to the tune of $40K for doing something they don't know is
bad.

------
basseq
Five known cases out of 2,200 sales is a quarter of a percent. As a
conservative estimate, let's say it's more like 1%. At $40,000 per
replacement, adding $400 to the cost of the car (a 0.4-0.7% increase depending
on model) seems nominal to then offer full coverage.

Granted, the problem gets worse as more "consumer-level" customers purchase
their cars and don't take as good care of them.

Which then raises the question of why this is even possible. Why on earth will
the car's systems happily destroy itself? Where's the "if BATTERY_LEVEL <
CRITICAL: shutDown()" line?

------
jamesaguilar
It seems like it's an inherent in this sort of battery. I'm not sure what
Tesla could do to offset this. Computer makers mostly don't offer warranties
in the case of negligence or intentional damage. The same seems to apply here.

~~~
rapind
We're much more accepting of computer and software bugs than vehicle bugs.
This, if true, will turn into a PR nightmare for them very fast.

~~~
nknight
It's not a bug, it's an inherent technological limitation.

~~~
pbreit
No it's not. There are a variety of ways to engineer around this property of
the batteries.

~~~
nknight
Then perhaps you'd care to share one? Or maybe just start cranking out magic
batteries and become uber-wealthy?

Since you haven't done that, I find it more likely you have no clue what
you're talking about.

~~~
aidenn0
Here's one:

Rather than brick the battery, if it is parked and below a certain level,
release a normally open relay that completely disconnects the BMS from the
cells. Recovering from this state would require special charging and
recalibrating of the BMS (possibly done at a shop) but it would be better than
bricking the pack.

~~~
nknight
Disconnecting the BMS does not eliminate self-discharge, only the parasitic
load. Draining your batteries to the point of being functionally dead, and
then leaving them in that state for an extended period, will still "brick"
them just as badly.

------
powertower
What's the issue with the battery tech that makes it not chargable after a
full discharge?

~~~
fleitz
It's inherent to any lithium ion battery design which is why every laptop,
iphone, etc that uses a lithium ion battery has circuitry that cuts power when
the batter reaches 1% to 5% it _can_ occur in your laptop if you discharge the
battery entirely and then leave your battery uncharged for months (or less if
stored cold).

Some kind of chemical change occurs in Li batteries when completely
discharged.

~~~
throwaway64
storing hot is what is detremental to lithium batteries, storing them cold
increases lifetime

~~~
jambalaya
Should I store batteries I don't use in the fridge or freezer? I have a backup
laptop battery for instance.

~~~
throwaway64
maximum lifetime is obtained when you store them at around 66% charge at 4C,
which is the temperature of your fridge, take them out ever few months and
charge them, you can get less than 1% capacity degradation a year.

------
Tooluka
> A service manager then informed him that “it’s a brick” and that the battery
> would cost approximately $40,000 to replace. He was further told that this
> was a special “friends and family” price, strongly implying that Tesla
> generally charges more.

> $40,000 (or more) to fix his car

> full $40,000-plus cost

> At the same time, the Model S pricing starts at $49,900 (after US tax
> incentives), broadening the market to households of far more modest means
> than the owners of the $109,000 and up Roadster. This in turn makes it even
> less likely that Tesla buyers will have the necessary tens of thousands of
> dollars to spare if they ever allow their battery to fully discharge.
> ("Implying that battery cost will be the same as for Roadster, car that
> costs 2.5 times more")

Statements like this are generally bad for an article that tries to operate
with facts.

------
p0ss
I would like to see Tesla's response to this. I was going to pre-order a model
X, i won't be now, until I know I won't be tracked and the car won't brick
itself.

------
mcot2
I'm much more in favor of hundreds of millions of govt money going towards
50-100MPG+ electric/gas hybrids than all electric at this point.

Limited range, hard to "refuel", and now the very real possibility of
bricking. I think we are still a long long ways away from practical all
electrics.

~~~
jlarocco
I'd prefer the government stay out of it all together. Producing vehicles
isn't what the government is for.

Second, using a 2500 pound car to transport a 150 pound person 15-20 miles to
work every day is incredibly inefficient any way you look at it. If the
government is going to be involved at all, it should be to promote walking,
cycling, and public transportation. Researching more efficient cars is like
trying to replace arsenic in drinking water with mercury - maybe it's not as
bad, but it's still bad.

Third, if people were serious about saving the environment and reducing
pollution then they'd start living closer to the places they need to go, and
stop driving so much altogether. They're not doing that, so I don't think the
interest is there.

~~~
stretchwithme
We'd be far better off if government weren't subsidizing the automobile at
all. Subsidizing mass transit to ameliorate the effects of subsidizing the
automobile makes no sense.

I don't think it needs to promote walking either. Most people are perfectly
capable of understanding their own situations if we don't hide the costs and
if they are allowed to learn from their own mistakes.

It would be proper to tax things that have negative effects that aren't paid
for, such as pollution.

~~~
rdl
The main government subsidy for efficient automakers that I'd like to see is a
commitment to purchase certain numbers of vehicles for federal fleets if they
meet specific performance goals (including price). Same thing with state/local
(possibly with some federal subsidy of local purchases of more efficient
vehicles).

Ideally without specifying how to make them more efficient, just overall cost
per expected miles/yr (which would probably give natural gas vehicles the best
pricing right now).

~~~
stretchwithme
And I'd be opposed to that. The federal government is so bloated, they
probably have enough vehicles for the next ten years if they were to stop
doing all the things not authorized by the Constitution.

Efficiency is not the only consideration when buying a vehicle. I, personally,
don't want a vehicle that sacrifices safety for efficiency.

The government shouldn't be using pork or other inducements to bias the market
towards one consideration. Consumers knows their own needs.

If government wants to promote efficient, it should start by being less
wasteful itself. Right now its the worst example in human history.

------
aufreak3
The _real_ solution to this problem would be for tesla to setup "anti-brick"
charging stations, install google's self-drive system on their cars, and
program them to drive themselves to the nearest station and charge themselves
if there is a risk of bricking ;P

~~~
jambalaya
We need Tesla's wireless power charging ;)

------
huhtenberg
Let me tell you how to brick a top of the line 2009 BMW.

Easy-peasy. Lots of small trips, under 5 km, for 9 months. That's it.
Apparently the discharge caused by starting the car and a draw from all the
packages that are strapped to it are not offset by the charge received while
driving _unless_ the distance is at least 10 km per engine start. The only
warning that the car gives is an "excessive battery discharge" and when it
pops up the battery can no longer be fully recharged. Not covered by the
warranty, because apparently there's a one-liner in manual that says "20
minute a day continuous drive minimum". Unlike Tesla's though the battery is
"only" $700 to replace, not $40k.

~~~
run4yourlives
Unless BMW's are using some "buy only at BMW" type of design, a battery at
costco will probably run you $100.

~~~
huhtenberg
Yeah, it's an OEM thing with a built-in micro controller, karma enhancer and
god knows what else. Available from BMW only.

------
danbmil99
It's hard to imagine that, after all the hundreds of millions of dollars
poured into this company, they would choose to charge the customer > $30K for
a new battery in the few cases where this occurred. Is it really worth a few
hundred thousand dollars to get the PR this article implies?

And, why isn't there a failsafe mechanism that simply stops draining the
battery completely before this happens? Then at least you can tow it home and
recharge it -- inconvenient, but not $30K inconvenient.

------
rdl
If you leave a gasoline engine car unattended for a while, it becomes a brick,
too -- you need to flush the fuel, replace the seals, etc. True, it takes more
than 11 weeks, and you can usually put the transmission in neutral to tow it.

This is a big problem, though. If anyone has a spare Tesla and would like
someone to take care of it, I'd be happy to keep your car garaged and
energized, and will only drive it 200 miles a week. :)

~~~
r0s
Don't forget the battery, leave a 'normal' battery through a few months and
it's dead. What happens to a normal car once all the fuel is drained? Coolant?
Oil?

How did these design flaws make it out of engineering?!

~~~
pclark
You can comfortably leave a regular car alone for 6 months and when you return
at worst the battery will be flat and there'll be some rust on the brake pads.
I regularly do this to my poor old diesel SEAT. Even if the battery is flat I
can either bump start it, or worst comes to worst, buy a new $50 battery.

~~~
rdl
Diesels are a fair bit more tolerant, and low end cars are actually much more
robust than performance cars. Try leaving a dodge viper unattended for 6mo.

I drove a diesel land cruiser (lm78) which had been sitting on an airfield
unused for years. Aside from needing tires and a battery (and wiper blades) no
problem. Even the fuel was ok.

------
roc
Can someone explain why Tesla can't throw in a hibernation mode to dial down
the idle power-drain? I mean, what are the "always on subsystems" doing that
they're draining 50% charge in 7 days? Surely those systems and that level are
drain aren't inherent in lithium-ion tech.

And if Tesla can notify itself of a battery in danger of bricking, why can't
they notify the driver well in advance of the emergency?

------
bickfordb
I find the Japan story really hard to believe: buying a $50K+ car and not
bothering to buy an AC transformer to plug it in?

------
verelo
Honestly, these cares look great and are all electric. Two things that i want
in my next car. When i think electric car, i don't think of Ford, Nisan or any
other generic (GM) brand. These guys pulled us from the dark ages of fuel (and
the slightly brighter yet still dark ages of Hybrid cars) into the 21st
century with a car that runs on electricity alone.

With that in mind, the issue of a "Brick" isn't something I want...but if it
can be solved then I'm all up for this being my next car. Is there any
evidence that this same issue cant occur in the other main stream electric
cars coming onto the market anyway?

------
ghshephard
I've bricked a number of MacBook Pro batteries this way but (A) Scale is
obviously different - only $100, and (B) Genius Bar came to the rescue - even
though it really was my fault, they covered it under warranty.

~~~
tmeasday
Yeah, I've been told it falls under the standard AppleCare warranty if this
happens to anyone. (Likewise with fraying of charger cords).

Personally, I don't see why it's "your fault". I've seen it happen many times,
all you need to do is let your computer drain completely and leave it for a
few days (not months as some people have stated in this post). Although I'm
sure it says something about it in the manual somewhere, it's hardly common
knowledge that this is something you need to be careful of.

------
stretchwithme
Sounds like we got ourselves a great deal for the $400 million the government
lent them.

With many of these vehicles in California, I shudder to think how many might
brick just because the grid gets broken by an earthquake.

------
brmj
This strikes me as extraordinarily foolish. It's not that hard to have a hard
shutdown mode in which most of those parasitic loads are gone and trigger it
if the battery charge drops bellow a certain level. We've had that technology
in laptops for quite a while. This is not a hard problem to solve, and it is
obvious enough that it should have occurred to someone. Also, monitoring the
current it is getting for charging and displaying a warning if it is
insufficient and perhaps a projected charging time would be a good feature.

------
trotsky
Sure reads like a competitor isn't too pleased with their model s plans.

~~~
agwa
This article didn't sit well with me either. All the examples were completely
anecdotal, came from an anonymous source (a "regional service manager"), and
there are no citations. Footnote 1 references a "written Tesla report" but
that's hardly a citation.

It may be that there is a real issue here, but I would like to see it
corroborated by some actual evidence.

------
redcircle
The car is too risky to purchase if it can brick. There is no way to ensure
that a brick can't happen. Any charging source could malfunction (e.g., trip a
circuit breaker) without you becoming aware. You have to plan your whole life
around keeping the car charged. You can't lend it to friends (nor your spouse
that doesn't care about tech) --- oops, sorry, I didn't plug it in after my
several-hour drive. It's like having a dog that needs constant care. This
sounds too fantastic to be true.

------
ck2
Oh come on, this is a trivial problem to solve.

You put a $1 chip directly on the battery itself that if it ever drops below
"x" volts, it breaks the circuit. Even if the owner has to take it back to the
dealer to get it "reset" at least the battery will be saved.

My $500 LiFePo4 battery for my bicycle has something like this to prevent cell
reversal. They can certainly do it for a car unless they are just doing it on
purpose.

A disconnected lithium based battery can hold a base charge for YEARS.

------
zvrba
Tesla uses apparently Li-ion battery. I wonder why I han't experienced the
same problem with other electronics using that same type of battery. For
example, I had my fully-charged mobile stored away for approx 5 months without
charging. When I needed it again, the battery was still usable.

A side-question: can somebody explain what happens to a Li-ion battery when it
fully discharges? Why does it become a "brick"?

------
spullara
5 cars out of 2200 doesn't really qualify as a devastating problem. The
insurance for this for the fleet would probably run about $200/car based on a
100% profit for the insurer. Instead, charge $10/month per car and you are
probably way ahead. If you have a Tesla and I get at least 100 people
responding, I will do it for $20/month at my much smaller scale than a normal
insurance company.

~~~
rganguly
Funny, I saw the Tesla problem and immediately thought to myself that there
might be an interesting arbitrage oppty. If your car's been bricked and you
don't want to fork out $40k, is it possible you'd sell the car for some $$ to
a person willing to buy the new battery and get a discount to retail?

------
Vixter
It will be interesting to see if Tesla will do the right thing and replace the
battery packs at a reasonable price or create a PR disaster and then have to
replace the packs anyway. So far HN and theunderstatement.com have the scoop.
A search of the San Jose Mercury News doesn't show it yet. But there was
mention of Tesla doing powertrains for Mercedes.

------
moonchrome
I don't think this affects Model S as much as it does the roadster - reason
being - Model S is a car that you intend to use, not keep it in a garage as a
collectors item - so it's probably going to be recharged on a regular basis.
Stressing that it should be plugged if you intend to leave it for weeks is
still important.

------
Aloha
I would point out that both the Model S and X may very well have the circuitry
to completely disconnect the cell pack at something below 10% actual charge
(not displayed charge). I'm also really wondering how much of this is self
discharge, and how much of this is poor load control of the standby
electronics.

------
ebaysucks
OK, so how much solar panels would Tesla need to install on the roof of a
Model S to prevent this from happening?

------
Newgy
Tesla are crony capitalists building a car that is worse for the environment
(toxic battery, power waste across the grid, majority power from coal
powerplants) than traditional combustion engine machines.

------
antihero
It would be interesting if they (or we) were to do a service that for say, £20
a month, they would register if your car was about to flatline, go find it
using the GPS, and attempt to recharge it for you.

~~~
bwarp
That's a sticky plaster solution.

Not buying a buggy piece of crap to start with is the better solution.

------
mbenjaminsmith
Why not just put in one or more normal car batteries to run idle systems and
even act as a trickle charge when the car is turned off?

Also, a car that smart should be able to alert you in some way.

------
motoford
Unfortunate title for a blog post by Tesla con-founder,

"One Brick at a time"

<http://www.teslamotors.com/blog/one-brick-time>

------
dlokshin
Kind of crazy that for the price of just a new battery, you could get a lower
class Audi or BMW. Really put the overall "electric" technology in perspective
for me.

~~~
MiguelHudnandez
For $30k, you could get a new Nissan Leaf with ~100 mile range, comparable to
the Roadster. For this reason, I don't think your comparison is apt.

But yes, $40k is a lot of money and there are many options--including electric
drive.

------
rtremaine
I wonder if this is one <http://bit.ly/zIL8eL>, either that or the secondary
market is worse than I thought.

------
pbreit
Without any further corroboration, I won't believe that this seemingly
trivially addressed issue on an old model will affect future Tesla models.

------
CatDaaaady
This is one concerning I would NOT want hanging over my head every time I left
the car for an extended period of time :-\

------
JulianMorrison
Why can't the battery just be simply disconnected?

------
cli
Why can't the wheels turn after the battery dies?

~~~
sounds
The article explains that it doesn't have power to turn on "tow mode" - so the
wheels remain engaged to the now dead electrical system, effectively locking
them in place.

~~~
sbalea
Why can't you plug the car in, and switch on tow mode? Even a laptop with a
dead battery works fine when plugged in. I'd venture to say that a tow truck's
alternator should be enough to disengage the wheels. Sorry, but this is just
crappy engineering.

~~~
Arelius
Unlike a laptop, the Tesla was never designed to be run while plugged in.
Combined with the fact that they arent designed to hit zero battery. This is
an easy oversight of design, where the laptop can run directly off of wall
power not due to fix the problem of a dead battery, but to provide less stress
on the battery while being used and plugged in. A usage case that does not
exist under normal usage of a tesla.

Additionally. Do we know that it is actually impossible to engage tow mode
while plugged in? That still doesn't solve all cases of having to manually
move it.

~~~
moe
_Unlike a laptop, the Tesla was never designed to be run while plugged in._

Which is actually an amusing thought. Perhaps they could ship them with really
long extension chords, just enough for a city-commute...

~~~
jambalaya
How about a driving around a generator :p It would be cool though to have
wireless power from beneath the road or something.

~~~
Arelius
Isn't that basically what a hybrid does?

Also, it'd be neat if you could attach to the wires for buses that are in many
major cities.

------
mellifluousmind
I am actually curious that if it is a fundamental design issue with battery,
how are major car makers like Nissan handling its Leaf car?

If everyone bricks their car needs to pay 40K for the replacement, it would be
outrageous and all over the news. Personally, I do think that Tesla could have
done more to make sure drivers are fully aware of this issue before making
their purchase. Otherwise, I wouldn't put my money in Tesla stock, as they are
sitting dock and waiting for class action lawsuits

------
georgieporgie
_At least in the case of the Tesla Roadster, it’s not even possible to enable
tow mode, meaning the wheels will not turn and the vehicle cannot be pushed
nor transported to a repair facility by traditional means._

Well, that's completely false. A flatbed, which seems to be pretty standard
for towing these days, will have now problem at all winching that vehicle onto
the platform, whether the wheels turn or not.

------
wavephorm
Um yeah so this why you should have a QA department.

------
ohyes
> a regional service manager for Tesla stated he was personally aware of at
> least five cases of Tesla Roadsters being “bricked” due to battery
> depletion.

This regional service manager has been sacked.

The correct answer here was, "I'm not sure, I'll see if I can look that up for
you," evasively answering ugly questions 101.

------
shirro
There are too many rich shits in this world who have never known
responsibility. If you want nice things you have to maintain them. I hope they
never have pets or kids. You have to give them water, feed them and clean them
all the time. It is inherent in the nature of some things that they screw up
really quickly if you stop caring. It isn't a technology problem.

------
grannyg00se
This is akin to leaving the headlights on when the car is turned off in a
regular car. You're asking for trouble. (though not to the tune of $40,000)

When the car is turned off, there should be some kind of indication of how
long it will take to brick the thing. If that indication is days rather than
weeks, it should yell at you. Loudly. At least that way all owners will know
of the threat. The car will educate them. (important, because they probably
won't RTFM)

Although I'm sure you could still end up with the odd user who leaves the car
with a three week brick time, receives no loud warning because of the
significant charge remaining , comes back five weeks later and curses Tesla.

~~~
tptacek
No, leaving the headlines on on your car is unlikely even to ruin your $100
car battery. You'll just need a jump start.

The two situations are not at all comparable.

~~~
grannyg00se
They are comparable in that they both have to do with batteries and something
you have to think about when you leave your car. In one case the consequences
are much worse, but the general idea is the same. When you leave your car, you
could mess up your battery if you aren't thinking.

