
Are Avocados and Almonds Vegan? - curtis
https://www.cnn.com/2019/05/10/health/avocado-almond-vegan-partner/index.html
======
TillE
Non-vegans are always trying to do this smug "checkmate vegans" bullshit. It's
incredibly tiresome.

There's this bizarre, illogical trope that doing _some_ good is pointless if
you can't be absolutely, impeccably perfect in every way. Again, it's just
obvious bullshit from people who don't even really believe what they're
saying, they're just playing a stupid gotcha game.

~~~
sonnyblarney
Vegans _own_ smug and 'ethical checkmate' inanity - the 'eco' ethos of food
goes hand in hand with this, they are the same thing; don't blame outsiders.

I have never in real life heard of anyone contemplating nuts and avocados as
'vegan' or not, but I hear all the time from my vegan-leaning friends about
GMO's, palm oil, and everything else.

Most of us just want a croissant made with butter and would like for it to
work out in some reasonable way for everyone including the cow.

~~~
kermitismyhero
>Vegans own smug and 'ethical checkmate' inanity

I maintain that the Vegan Police from Scott Pilgrim are one of the finest
satirical concepts I've ever seen in fiction.

~~~
newscracker
You do realize they exist online, right? ;) People are usually way nicer in
person.

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mywittyname
I hate these stupid arguments. The entire point is to muddy the definition of
a word so much as to render it worthless for political reasons. It's like how
assault rifle was a well understood term in the 70s and 80s, but today groups
quibble over technical minutiae in an effort to invalidate the term.

As with most labels, the word vegan has a fluid, rough definition which varies
slightly over time and person-to-person. If someone tells me they are a vegan,
I know they are trying to tell me that they avoid foods that use animal parts
or their byproducts. It's not some fucking contract they entered into
prohibiting them from eating whatever foods society decides to impose the
vegan label on via mental gymnastics. If they are cool with eating the butter
made from Betsy, my happy cow, then whatever, let them eat the butter.

FWIW, I'm a carnivore and object to the consumption of almonds because of
their harmful impact to the environment. That might make me a hypocrite to
someone because I'm totally okay with eating a banana or something. But I
don't care, I'm free to decide my own arbitrary moral compass for whatever
reason I choose.

I guess I'm aggravated by society's needless pedantry over language. Not every
word needs a rigid legal or technical definition that should be adhered to.
And the people guilty of this are largely doing so because they don't agree
with you and are attempting to make you look stupid to justify their position.

------
shlant
Even the most ridiculous of militant vegans (and they get pretty ridiculous)
would consider things like almonds, avocados or figs vegan. Stop with the
perfectionism and the nitpicking. It's bad for the movement and bad for the
animals/environment.

"Veganism is a way of living which seeks to exclude, _as far as is possible
and practicable_ , all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for
food, clothing or any other purpose."[1]

1\. [https://www.vegansociety.com/go-vegan/definition-
veganism](https://www.vegansociety.com/go-vegan/definition-veganism)

~~~
imgabe
> Commercial farming of those vegetables, at least in some parts of the world,
> often involves migratory beekeeping.

> Vegans avoid animal products. For strict vegans this means avoiding honey
> because of the exploitation of bees. That seems to imply that vegans should
> also avoid vegetables like avocados that involve exploiting bees in their
> production.

It seems like there are some vegans who consider it. If exploiting bees for
honey is non-vegan, why would exploiting bees for other purposes be
acceptable?

~~~
shlant
because if you look far enough down the rabbit hole, nothing is vegan. Hence
"as far as is possible and practicable".

If you are vegan except honey, good for you. If you decide that doesn't fit
your worldview/morals, then good for you. If all you care about is meeting
some other persons very specific standard of veganism, then you are probably
doing it for the wrong reasons to begin with.

~~~
imgabe
I think a real vegan would not be spying on innocent rabbits in their holes.

~~~
shlant
yea we should really start considering the privacy of the animals. It's a hot
topic with humans, so might as well include everyone.

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PerfectElement
Here's the definition of veganism by the Vegan Society: "Veganism is a way of
living which seeks to exclude, as far as is possible and practicable, all
forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for food, clothing or any
other purpose."

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nacho_weekend
As a non-vegan, it really irks me when other non-vegans try to “checkmate”
vegans with situations like this. It’s a personal choice to not partake in the
factory meat/animal products industry and the measurable harm that comes to
life forms from it. True, you can show that vegetables and other byproducts
can be derived from human labor cost, but when the rubber meets the road, and
you make an individual choice on what products to consume, it’s valid to judge
these ethical concerns and decide what best fits into your personal values
set. I think it helps that I come from the Hardcore Punk scene where many of
my friends are vegan.

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newscracker
Clickbait title! Nothing on this planet would be vegan if we look closely at
harm caused by any behavior or habit or use. It’s about reducing harm and
least harm. If people understood that part of veganism and then moved further
to understand it better, there wouldn’t be so much hatred or so many clickbait
titles.

Pointing out the truth and informing people about the consequences of their
choices can be done without silly titles that make many people roll their
eyes.

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amelius
Not sure about the vegan part but I've just discovered that avocados require
lots of water during production and as such are not very natural-resource-
friendly.

[https://old.danwatch.dk/en/undersogelseskapitel/how-much-
wat...](https://old.danwatch.dk/en/undersogelseskapitel/how-much-water-does-
it-take-to-grow-an-avocado/)

~~~
sdenton4
For comparison: [https://foodtank.com/news/2013/12/why-meat-eats-
resources/](https://foodtank.com/news/2013/12/why-meat-eats-resources/)

Beef is ~1800 gal/lb ~= 15,021 liters / kg, vs 283 liters / kg for avocados,
as per your link...

There was a pile of scaremongering press about this a couple years ago, which
somehow always left out meat production comparisons... You get most of the
benefit by eating low on the food chain. Additionally cutting out important
sources of vegetable fat + protein seems a bit dangerous to me.

~~~
village-idiot
I think it’s very misleading to actually make this comparison, because it
ignores the different types of water: green (rain) and blue (treated and
irrigated).

Beef in particular consumes a lot of water, but a lot of it is green, which is
much more environmentally friendly than blue water.

~~~
sdenton4
Here's a site (with terrible UX...) from comparing liters/kg for various
foods, broken down into green/blue/grey:

[https://waterfootprint.org/en/resources/interactive-
tools/pr...](https://waterfootprint.org/en/resources/interactive-
tools/product-gallery/)

Beef lists there also at 15,415 liters/kg, with a 4% 'blue' (filtered/treated)
component, which works out to 616.6 liters/kg - still double the total water
kg/liter for the avocados (which, themselves, will have a green/blue/grey
breakdown).

(It's also not obvious to me that one should consider 'green' water as a
completely free resource. Plants bred for fast growth with constant
replacement will consume more water, which in turn won't find its way into
aquifers.)

~~~
village-idiot
And this is a much more nuanced breakdown. Double the blue water vs. the
orders of magnitude that’s typically presented. Personally I believe that the
health benefits of meat is well worth doubling the per kg blue water cost of
my food.

On the discussion of green water, that depends on location and animal
husbandry technique. It does appear that some places we let pasture raised
cattle roam can help with the replenishment of soil layers and also sequester
carbon to boot. Managed intensive rotational grazing in particular is very
promising.

I think we desperately need to be having a discussion about better animal
husbandry and land management (see: Brazil). But whenever I hear that all we
need to do is “just” do one thing, my bullshit detector goes wild, and the
idea that we can fix global warming by reducing meat consumption falls well
into that category for me.

~~~
sdenton4
To be sure - the beef is using twice as much blue water as the TOTAL for
avocados. My guess (looking at the listed breakdowns for other vegetables) is
that the direct blue water comparison would be somewhere between 4x and 8x.

It's certainly the case that there's no magic bullet - no one here (that I've
noticed) has claimed that reducing meat consumption will 'fix' global warming.
Conversely, people tend to become vegans for a range of reasons, in which
environmental impact is just one facet... Many times a problem will require a
range of solutions, and sometimes a solution helps with a range of problems.

------
goodroot
The absurd logical conclusion is to stop eating and die.

We all want it to be better. Vegans are trying. People are trying. What good
does this discourse serve?

~~~
alistairSH
_The absurd logical conclusion is to stop eating and die._

That's a thing.[0] Not literally starvation, but the "earth would be better
without us" part.

0 -
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voluntary_Human_Extinction_Mov...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voluntary_Human_Extinction_Movement)

~~~
newscracker
I rage against this many a times. It’s one of the most absurd and illogical
things that some people have come up with.

To your point though, it doesn’t directly relate to the GP’s point. Voluntary
Human Extinction Movement requires breeding to reduce and stop and make humans
extinct. It doesn’t require those who are living to just kill themselves.

------
didibus
It's fun to reduce complex, varied and nuanced ethical stances into as few as
possible boxes and give them cool names like sufficientarianism, and that way,
we can all pick a clan and then argue about true scotsman all day long.

I'm curious, what ethical box would I fit in if I'm more worried about
maximising my sustained access to high quality avocados and honey? So that it
is the balance optimum between being healthy and safe to eat, produced
sustainably, delicious, varied in flavors, and available for me to buy year
round?

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racuna
My first impression was "D'uh", but then, from the article:

> Vegans avoid animal products. For strict vegans this means avoiding honey
> because of the exploitation of bees. That seems to imply that vegans should
> also avoid vegetables like avocados that involve exploiting bees in their
> production.

I'm not vegan, so I don't know how deep they are involved in "not animal
exploitation" even is not obvius nor direct

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peterwwillis
There should be a word for "overly concerned and judgmental about what other
people do in their private life"

~~~
kermitismyhero
>There should be a word for "overly concerned and judgmental about what other
people do in their private life"

How about "vegan"?

~~~
shlant
haven't heard that joke before...

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checkyoursudo
I think you can make a case that there are vegans, and there are Vegans. Much
like you can be libertarian without being a Libertarian, or enjoy the search
for truth without ever worrying if what you have learned is The Truth.

I strive to be vegan, though sometimes I am unsuccessful. I also strive not to
lie, though sometimes my friend wants to know if this whatever looks good on
him or her.

I strive to be a person who eats only plant and plant-derived food, for
several personal reasons (including some ethical!), though I don't really care
about whether a bee was transported from one field to another to pollinate
something. If that makes me not a Vegan, then I don't care. But I still try to
eat plant-based foods.

But I also don't call myself a vegan or even an aspiring-vegan. I am almost
certainly a vegetarian since I don't eat any meat, though I don't call myself
a vegetarian.

Personally, I am satisfied letting the person who wants to or is trying to be
vegan decide for themselves whether they are comfortable eating avocados or
whatever.

People would be happier in life if they weren't so concerned about absolutes,
I think. Just try to be who you want to be. If you want to try to be the best
capital-V Vegan as defined by someone else's standards (and adopt them as your
own or w/e) that you can be, then maybe don't eat avocados.

------
dragonwriter
If they aren't because of the “exploitation” of bees in migratory beekeeping,
then ethical vegans probably need to also consider the use of manure as
fertilizer, where or comes from, and what crops it is used on in assessing
acceptable vegan food.

~~~
newscracker
Check out “veganic farming” or “stock free farming”. That addresses the point
you’re referring to, though it’s not practical in many places yet.

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jasonvorhe
Yes, they are. EOD.

~~~
DoctorOetker
I agree, it's just mind boggling to think otherwise. It may or may not be
ecologically responsible, but consuming the indirect fruits of bee pollination
labor, is distinct from consuming their direct resource of honey, which could
be viewed as a "body part" of the larger organism.

By this quiz rationale, your average vegetable wouldn't be vegan because it
may rely on animal fertilizer...

~~~
kermitismyhero
>By this quiz rationale, your average vegetable wouldn't be vegan because it
may rely on animal fertilizer...

Heck, this could be extended to the use of oxygen to breathe. It's another
byproduct of a plant process that has animal waste (CO2) as an input.

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rasengan0
I tired of zealots.

What you eat is a personal choice.

If the whole world ate dogs routinely, I would choose carrots.

Some would say "Ah, stupid carrot eater doesn't know the root bacteria he's
killing is also sentient!" Dogs, bacteria: all under the living tree.

See, eat anything and shut up you stupid carrot eating zealot.

Then there's the Corgi burger macs for $2.5 and the corporate lunches where I
ask for any menu exception and get the carrot soup entree for $25.

Never mind the free range German Shepherd steaks or bulldog sausage, that shit
is everywhere.

But taste is not everything my friends,

sometimes it takes real cognitive effort to be aware of factory farming,
government subsidies, nutritional health, environmental downstream effects and
other considerations before you open your big mouth.

A little impulse control goes a long way.

That said, I still wear my 7 year old dog leather shoes from China and don't
subscribe to any CarrotPower YouTuber channels.

What's up, doc?

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verdverm
Is it be exploitation or do the bees get to see, smell, and taste more of the
world?

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techntoke
Is ice cold?

~~~
lucb1e
This comment was flagged to death but honestly, while posed silly, it's a
similar argument as most. Many others here are saying vegan is a "fluid" term
or something along those lines, and one might say that "cold" is similarly
relative. There are some worse comments in this thread.

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ruffrey
> vegetables like avocados

Avocados are a fruit...

~~~
ravenstine
"Vegetable" isn't a botanical word, but it's culinary. The term "fruit" is
both botanical and culinary. A fruit can be considered a vegetable or a
culinary "fruit".

~~~
timdiggerm
Yes, but that's not relevant here. Culinarily, they are not a fruit either.

~~~
ravenstine
I never said they're a culinary fruit... check my last sentence again.

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Causality1
This isn't going to bother anyone, since vegans have made peace with killing
thousands of insects every time a field is harvested.

