
An Era in Hong Kong Is Ending, Thanks to China’s Tight Embrace - dcgudeman
http://www.wsj.com/articles/an-era-in-hong-kong-is-ending-thanks-to-chinas-tight-embrace-1474647072
======
FabHK
A good overview of the situation. The slow erosion of freedoms is coming
earlier than expected.

Fortunately, the HK people recognise the salami tactics of the CCP, and
protest (as in the umbrella movement 2014), and a small but growing minority
now agitates for some sort of independence.

However, given

* the increasing power of China on a world-wide stage, even vis-a-vis, say, the UK

* the decreasing relevance of HK for China (see the graph in the article: HK GDP was a quarter of China GDP, now under 3%)

* China's aversion to any secession (almost instinctive, though probably based on historically justified fear of crumbling order and prosperity when a dynasty falls apart), as seen in Xinjiang, Tibet, etc.

it is hard to see how the tensions can be reduced peacefully, rather than
gathering steam.

~~~
vkou
Erosion of which freedoms? For most of its modern history, Hong Kong was a
dictatorship. [1]

[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Hong_Kong#Government](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Hong_Kong#Government)

> For almost all of its history under British rule, executive power in Hong
> Kong was concentrated in the hands of the colony governor, a position
> appointed by the British crown without any democratic input from Hong Kong
> citizens. The introduction of elected representatives determined by local
> elections, even limited to the role of "advisory councils", did not begin
> until after the 1984 agreements by the British to hand Hong Kong over to
> China.

~~~
pjc50
British HK was better for freedom of speech and rule of law, I believe.
Participatory government is important but not the only factor in freedom.

~~~
vkou
Freedom of speech is worth little, when you don't have freedom of political
activity. What good is it if you can criticize your government, when you can't
do anything change it?

Speech, by itself, does nothing - until you transform it into action. Which
was quite illegal. Inmates in a prison have as much freedom of speech as they
could ever want - but they are not free.

~~~
CountSessine
_What good is it if you can criticize your government, when you can 't do
anything change it?_

It's not going to be too long before the people of HK can do neither, much
like their pitiable neighbours to the north.

------
anexprogrammer
It makes me sad to see this, less than 20 years on.

Chris Patten (last governor, and something of a surprise appointment) made a
big effort to shape the handover agreement to give democracy the best chance
of surviving. He ended up quite popular in HK and deeply disliked in Beijing.

He has often spoken that one of his biggest regrets was he and Britain
couldn't have achieved more and complained that British governments haven't
criticised China enough since handover (most recently having a pop at George
Osbourne last year). You end up with the impression his 5 years there made
more impact on him than the rest of his career.

~~~
spacehunt
He certainly made quite a big (and lasting) impression on Hong Kong people.
Perhaps by fate, he was the only career politician ever to take the role, and
to date he is still the governor/chief executive with the most political
skills ever to have led Hong Kong.

------
ilamont
For anyone interested in the mainland/HK relationship, I urge you to check out
the East West South North blog (1) run by Roland Soong, a local writer who
translates Chinese/Cantonese newspaper articles, web videos, and forum posts
into English. It’s ostensibly about local politics, but it also gets into the
social dynamics and news events including tension between local people and
mainlanders over real estate, government services, tourism, and elections.

In addition to activities in Hong Kong, there have been reports that China’s
government has pressured overseas Chinese journalists, activists, and
community leaders in other parts of the world (2) with at least one Chinese-
Canadian journalist losing his job for not toeing the pro-China line. The
Globe and Mail has reported that Chinese security agents on tourist visas
regularly attempt to strong-arm certain expatriates to return home (3).

Finally, in China itself many journalists have simply given up. Many believe
there is no future in the profession, because the government clamps down on
almost any reporting that goes against local and national interests (4). The
Communist/PRC propaganda machine has been around since 1949, but in an era of
instant communications, social networking, and higher standards of living, the
hopes and goals of China’s young journalists can’t bypass the power of a one-
party political system that will do whatever it takes to achieve its vision of
stability while preserving one-party rule.

1\.
[http://www.zonaeuropa.com/weblog.htm](http://www.zonaeuropa.com/weblog.htm)

2\. [http://www.nytimes.com/2016/08/28/world/americas/chinese-
can...](http://www.nytimes.com/2016/08/28/world/americas/chinese-canadians-
china-speech.html?_r=0)

3\. [http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/chinese-
agents-...](http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/chinese-agents-enter-
canada-on-tourist-visas-to-coerce-return-of-fugitive-expats/article31981251/)

4\. [https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/feb/12/china-
journali...](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/feb/12/china-journalism-
reporters-freedom-of-speech)

~~~
FabHK
Another good source of English-language news on HK is the Hong Kong Free Press
run by Tom Grundy:

[https://www.hongkongfp.com](https://www.hongkongfp.com)

------
dcgudeman
Although I think integration with mainland China is probably a good thing it's
things like this I find alarming:

 _Hong Kongers are sensitive about encroachment by mainland law enforcement.
Last year, several Hong Kong booksellers disappeared after publishing thinly
sourced, salacious tell-alls about China’s leaders. They turned up later in
detention in mainland China._

~~~
spacehunt
> I think integration with mainland China is probably a good thing

Why do you think cultural genocide is a good thing?

No, seriously, as a Hong Konger, I really would like to know if are there
really any actual advantages.

~~~
dcgudeman
I guess I should clarify. _Economic_ integration. If you read the article a
lot of mainland capital is flowing into Hong Kong. That being said I do think
the political and cultural aspects are troubling.

~~~
x2398dh1
I would posit that the article's assertion of capital flowing into Hong Kong
is deeply flawed, and the article was possibly paid for by people from China
or the US who have an interest in this happening (although I have very little
basis for asserting that possibility).

The foundation for currency is trust. Hong Kong has a functioning legal
system, whereas China does not and will not in the future - by eroding that
autonomy, China is in effect canibalizing its own capital base.

If you have room mate A and room mate B, and room mate A is very trustworthy
while B is not, but B starts writing down tons of IOUs for millions of dollars
onto pieces of paper and gives them to roommate A, is roommate A now richer?
Well it depends upon roommate B's ability to pay back. Now, if roommate B has
a business selling widgets, but no organizational skills to keep all of the
contracts in order, and outsources that to roommate A, then the system works.
If roommate B interfere's with A's ability to organize by...I don't
know...getting A drunk on a regular basis so he can't complete his job, then
the enterprise as a whole collapses.

That's what is going to happen in China with what they are going to do with
Hong Kong, with China obviously being B and Hong Kong being A.

~~~
Canada
Nobody is thinking this way. Chinese people with money aren't particularly
distrustful of their government, they're just trying to buy what they want
before someone else does.

An enormous number of Chinese people have made huge amounts of money. They've
already bid up all the desirable areas in their own country to insane prices.
It's San Francisco bad. So they look elsewhere. They see lots of opportunities
in the West that offer more value for their money, an opportunity to escape
from the brutal rat race that China is, and a mature legal system and deep
cultural respect for property rights. All they have to do is make payment...

They can't just wire the money out because the Chinese government imposes
strict capital controls. So they bypass them through HK, insurance schemes,
investment schemes, through purchase and return of expensive luxury items, by
having friends and family wire out of their accounts to their limits, with
bitcoin, with good old bags of cash through the airport, or whatever other
creative solutions they can find.

------
matthewrudy
I've been in (and around) Hong Kong since 2010.

Hong Kong is a beautiful country, a bustling dynamic city, with fantastic
natural features on every side.

However it lost the ability to innovate, it became too expensive to live in,
and talent has poured away.

At the same time liberties are being taken away, and there is a fear of Hong
Kong losing its identity.

But there are seeds of hope; the localist / independence movement may still
achieve the assumed impossible, and a startup scene is rapidly developing, and
technology is beginning to be taken seriously.

I urge you to come visit some time.

Off topic / Advert

We're hosting the 3rd annual Hong Kong Code Conf in a few weeks, if you're
looking for an excuse to visit.

[http://hongkong.codeconf.io](http://hongkong.codeconf.io)

~~~
ksec
It is the most expensive Cities in the world. And yet our government is doing
jack about it.

------
ryanisnan
Although this is off-topic, screw sites that require logins to read content
like this.

~~~
johansch
The recipe is: open the 'web' Google search link in incognito mode and then
pick the original url from the results, usually at #1.

~~~
merchang
Thanks, never knew that! May be a dumb question, but why does that work?

~~~
idreyn
In private browsing mode the site won't have access to the cookies stored in
the browser that it's been using to keep track of the number of "free"
articles you've read. In addition, some news sites will selectively disable
the paywall for certain referrers, especially search engines and social media
sites, to strategically gain hits. So when you do what the original comment
suggested, you appear to their site as someone who has never visited before
and came from a Google search — in other words, they don't want your _first_
experience with their website to be a paywall.

------
lenkite
Right or wrong, Hong Kong is neither powerful nor self-sufficient enough to
resist total integration into mainland China. I suspect the process will be
fully complete within another decade. China today is an unacknowledged
superpower that is fully capable of enforcing absolute dominance in nearby
territories. No amount of international condemnation can stop China.

From a military point of view, Hong Kong as an island is very easy to isolate
and fully suppress for years until the people change their minds. China has
the economic clout and manpower to do this for decades if necessary.

I strongly believe Hong Kong politicians are better served by asking for
concessions and benefits from the mainland (tax reduction, extra funding, etc)
then attempting secessionist movements that are only going to spectacularly
fail with a bloodbath of their people.

------
justlearning
the graph showing gdp is very skewed. China was not an open market in 1985.

in the recent legislative elections,pro democracy voters won.it will be a
tough fight for china.people here are prepared to sacrifice multiple
generations for freedom.

i live around the region and follow hong kong closely. would like to share
more,but limited by my mobile device.

source: [https://www.hongkongfp.com/2016/09/05/legislative-legco-
hong...](https://www.hongkongfp.com/2016/09/05/legislative-legco-hong-kong-
election-2016-triumph-for-pro-democracy-newcomers-as-opposition-camp-
maintains-veto-power/)

------
shp0ngle
I have to ask the question... Why is China so goddamn rich and how did Hong
Kong became so insignificant compared to mainland?

What happened in the mainland exactly in the last 10, 15 years?

Sorry if it's a naive comment

~~~
matthewrudy
An important role of Hong Kong over the past few decades has been as a
"gateway to China".

Technically China has been open for business for a long time, but the rule of
law and peculiarities of Chinese business were less approachable for Western
business.

Hong Kong was right nextdoor, spoke English, and had a similar legal system to
the UK, and respected copyright and intellectual property.

If you were doing business in China, chances are you were going through Hong
Kong or Taiwan.

Gradually though, China has boomed, people have learnt English, and doing
business directly with China has become more accessible.

At the same time Hong Kong's rule of law has eroded and Singapore has taken
it's place as the business hub of Asia.

------
invaliddata
I'd love to hear more from the perspective of Hong Kong residents and natives.
In the us we get relatively little coverage of the situation in Hong Kong.

~~~
dominicwong617
I would love to tell you more, but the overall situation is too complex to be
explained here, is it okay for me to contact you directly?

~~~
matthewrudy
I'd suggest if you are gonna spend the time to out together your thoughts,
that you share them with us all.

Would love to hear.

------
poshli
HK only exists because the British needed a way to poison I mean sell the Raj
opium crop to the Chinese. Maybe the Chinese have very long memories.

