
Open Bazaar – decentralized Bitcoin marketplace - amingilani
http://openbazaar.org/
======
SamPatt
I work on OpenBazaar and I'm happy to answer questions.

This website links to the current version of OpenBazaar, but we're just about
to launch a completely new version, which you can read about here:

[https://medium.com/openbazaarproject/openbazaar-2-0-p2p-trad...](https://medium.com/openbazaarproject/openbazaar-2-0-p2p-trade-
takes-the-next-step-4d75b7f23ec8)

The 2.0 is built with Go and uses IPFS. It's open source and we welcome any
developers into the project:

[https://github.com/OpenBazaar/openbazaar-
go](https://github.com/OpenBazaar/openbazaar-go)

~~~
sillysaurus3
Since you have merged PRs allowing use via Tor, you seem to be tacitly
encouraging Open Bazaar to be used by those who want to hide their identity.
In the wake of the recent darknet market closures, people have been saying
that the drug trade might move to decentralized markets like this.
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14828864](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14828864)

As facilitators of this technology, do you have an opinion on how it should be
used? Are you concerned that the primary use case might be to acquire drugs?
And are there any controls in place to encourage or discourage certain types
of items from being bought and sold on this platform, or is it a complete
free-for-all?

~~~
notliketherest
Dear Vint Cerf, since you have created TCP-IP, and another contemporary of
yours - HTTP, you seem to be tacitly encouraging a decentralized worldwide
exchange of information used by billions around the globe to facilitate
exchange of ideas, pleasure, and commerce, free from government censor...

~~~
matthewbauer
I thinks it totally different. At the end of the day, the law could reach the
original Internet. It really wasn't much different than telephone lines.
Encryption is where everything changes. I think everyone should be at least a
little bit nervous about where these crypto technologies are taking us. Once
criminals learn how to use this technology, there's probably no going back.

~~~
csuwldcat
Drug purchasing sites have actually helped reduce violence and crime
associated with prohibited items/activities. I'm more nervous about where
authoritarian government is taking us.

~~~
soupbowl
* citation needed.

~~~
xtracto
Well, there are some that I know. The original is here:

[https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=2436643](https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=2436643)

Then there is Neil Franklin a Maryland police officer and director of the
organization "Law Enforcement Against Prohibition"

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rc29nw4Si3Y](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rc29nw4Si3Y)

And his interview in the Deep Web documentary at minute 60 (it is in Netflix).

~~~
foepys
This paper doesn't directly support what you said. In the abstract it says:
"With Silk Road functioning to considerable degree at the wholesale/broker
market level, its virtual location should reduce violence, intimidation and
territorialism."

There are 3 mentions of the word "violence", one says that the typical
internet drug dealer is typically less violent than their offline counterparts
but this doesn't meant that gangs will just let others take away their income
because the new dealer is dealing out of a living room instead of on the
street. Silk Road was B2B, as the paper mentions. But those businesses still
need to get their drugs to the end user which seemingly happens on the street.

So it's an assumption, not a proven fact.

------
jasode
Seems to be some confusion...

To clarify OpenBazaar's _" No Transaction Fees"_, it means there are no
_marketplace platform_ fees.

To compare with ebay, to sell an item for $500 and charge $20 for shipping
($520):

\- eBay fee: ~10% of final bid value + 10% of any shipping charge added on =
$52

\- PayPal fee: 2.9% of payment = $15.08

The bitcoin network would eliminate the PayPal fees. (The bitcoin fees would
still exist but presumably would be lower than 2.9%)

The OpenBazaar platform would eliminate the eBay platform fees.

~~~
abrkn
It is a good idea to pay someone for escrow services.

~~~
mhluongo
IIRC OpenBazaar still has paid escrow- it's just cheaper than eBay's fees.

~~~
ghevshoo
Only in the case of a disputed between the buyer and seller where arbitrage is
needed.

~~~
mhluongo
Good point! By the way the term is arbitration- arbitrage is a different thing

------
vit05
People are talking about drugs or questioning that it is not exactly for free.
But my big question, from the point of view of someone who has owned a small
online store, is security for the buyer. In a completely p2p transaction, the
biggest difficulty lies in the assurances that the two parties are completely
satisfied with the deal. The first purchase is the most important move in any
market, paying a premium so that everything goes well is not so bad.

~~~
SamPatt
There is a built-in escrow, which uses Bitcoin 2-of-3 multisignature. This
means that if both buyer and seller are happy, they are the only two of three
parties needed to release funds, but if either of the parties is unhappy they
can bring in the escrow party.

Escrow is provided on a marketplace as well, anyone can act as an escrow
agent.

~~~
vit05
Sounds cool, I just read the explanation, it's on the Features tab. But in the
gif it is showing that you will have to pay for it, and it will be a % of the
total business. Similar to what already occurs in other markets. But, as it
will depend on a person, not a company, what is the legal responsibility of
that third person in the deal? Will these people have a profile or decision
history so you can decide who to trust? And are they responsible for the
quality of the product or just to ensure that people will receive their
product?

~~~
cpacia
> But in the gif it is showing that you will have to pay for it

Only if the escrow resolves a dispute. The escrow agent doesn't actually learn
of the transaction if all goes well.

As to the rest of the questions, the arbitration is a bit ad hoc at the
moment.

The vendor selects the escrow agent he's willing to use and offers that as
part of a "bundle" with product.

If the buyer doesn't know the escrow agent or doesn't trust him then he should
not buy.

Obviously, having reputable escrow agents will be critical and there currently
isn't any good in-app way of evaluating the reputation of the escrow.

Currently people tend to bring their reputations in from other platforms and
use other platforms to recommend trusted escrows.

------
Dowwie
Chris

If I understood the docs correctly, openbazaar 1.0 server is written in Python
but since it's release the team has worked on V2 in Go.

I'd really appreciate learning the motivation for the migration to Go and
think others may as well. Go programs are faster than Python programs but lo
and behold is a viable v1 - a server whose performance may have been good
enough?

Please, enlighten!

~~~
cpacia
1.0 is a bit of an MVP. While there's tons of room for optimization, Go is
still much faster.

That plus the fact that the main IPFS codebase is written in Go were the main
considerations.

~~~
Dowwie
Thanks for the response! So the choice wasn't driven as much by _actual_
performance issues, that might have been solved with refactoring, re-
engineering, or simply running through pypy. The catalyst was the adoption of
an IPFS library written in Go.

------
mike-cardwell
Installed. Run. First screen: Select your language. English already selected.
Hit "Next". Nothing happens. No apparent way of actually selecting a language
or proceeding. Uninstalled.

~~~
jesalg
Ran into this same issue. Peeked into the developer tools window. Looks like a
bug in:

onboardingModal.js:177 Uncaught TypeError: Cannot read property 'css' of
undefined

Had to change line 177 to this so I can move forward:

var oldPos = 0//parseInt(this.accWin.css('left').replace("px", "")),

~~~
noloblo
I got this weird error too in my mac

------
avaer
> How are there no fees and restrictions?

_Someone_ is paying the TX fees. Who? It can't be a single party, especially
the developers, without betraying the decentralization.

> Pay with 50+ cryptocurrencies on OpenBazaar: Bitcoin, Ethereum, Litecoin,
> Zcash, Dash, etc. Seller receives payment in Bitcoin

How does this work without a middleman or central party?

~~~
ddon
TX fees are paid to miners.

Currency conversions are probably done using ShapeShift
[https://shapeshift.io/](https://shapeshift.io/)

~~~
avaer
Hm, if that's indeed the case then this is free, feeless and decentralized
only to the depth of its landing page.

~~~
jstanley
What part of it do you think is not decentralised?

And how would you propose they implement the system in such a way that Bitcoin
miners are incentivised to include fee-less transactions?

In terms of fee structure, it is quite clearly an improvement over centralised
marketplaces. OpenBazaar is not charging any fees.

~~~
avaer
If e.g. Shapeshift can walk away with my money when they feel like it, that's
not decentralized. If the law can kill off Shapeshift for shady transactions
and not following sufficient KYC protocol, that's not decentralized.

I'm not sure how to solve the problem of Bitcoin transaction fees. Much, much
smarter people than me haven't. But I'm also not promoting a Bitcoin service
with "no transaction fees".

And I'm not sure I agree that this is an improvement over centralized markets.
With those I can buy escrow and some amount of assurance I'm not being
swindled by the platform itself, which the platform is on the hook for
legally.

~~~
jstanley
OK, using ShapeShift isn't decentralised, but you don't have to use ShapeShift
unless you want to pay in a currency that the merchat doesn't want to accept.
(And even then, you don't have to use ShapeShift. You can use any currency
exchange).

You can buy escrow on OpenBazaar too.

You can't really be swindled by the OpenBazaar platform. It's just open source
code that you run yourself. There's no way for anybody to jump in and change
the rules from underneath you.

------
blairanderson
Shouldn't need to be said, this does not remove fees from BTC/Ether
transactions.

The feature is that it does not ADD fees to use the platform.

------
symlinkk
It's not anonymous at all right now. I believe they're working on Tor support
for the future however.

~~~
wuliwong
how bout this? [https://github.com/OpenBazaar/openbazaar-
go/pull/342](https://github.com/OpenBazaar/openbazaar-go/pull/342)

A PR for "Tor"

~~~
SamPatt
That's in the 2.0 version (about to launch), but the current version doesn't
support Tor.

------
Xeoncross
Nothing is free, so here are my brief ideas for funding this:

\- Ads

\- "premium features" for sellers

\- "promoted" sellers

\- Fees for those that want to be "Secure Escrow and Dispute Resolution"
accounts

~~~
contingencies
According to
[https://www.openbazaar.org/about/](https://www.openbazaar.org/about/)

 _They founded a company, OB1, with a $1 million venture capital investment
from Union Square Ventures and Andreessen Horowitz. [...] OB1 received a
second round of investment for $3 million in the fall of 2016._

OK, so just to clarify, this is a for-profit project produced by a central
party with no stated plan for monetization. That is IMHO dubious. Their
website [http://ob1.io/](http://ob1.io/) includes a couple of hints as to how
profits may be eventually sought: a search engine for Open Bazaar and a cloud
based Open Bazaar store launching service. Then there is the fact a small
cabal have probably premined all the easily obtainable coins (SYSPOOL, Give Me
Coins, F2Pool), which means if the value goes up they profit handsomely.

Note that [http://ob1.io/about.html](http://ob1.io/about.html) lists some more
investors: BlueYard Capital, Digital Currency Group and William Mougayar.

~~~
tylersmith
OpenBazaar is non-profit project built by multiple for-profit groups. Us at
OB1 are just one group. [https://duosear.ch](https://duosear.ch) and
[https://mubiz.com](https://mubiz.com) are two others.

~~~
contingencies
[https://duosear.ch](https://duosear.ch) = another search engine, no about
page, domain registered to an individual, just over 1 year old.

[https://mubiz.com](https://mubiz.com) = another search engine, very small
French company

------
bigbass1
Dont know why this is even being discuss just use syscoin with VPN,TOR and ZEC
and your sorted and everything is on the blockchain no servers to be traced.
This is the setup
[https://www.reddit.com/r/DarkNetMarkets/comments/5s63o3/guid...](https://www.reddit.com/r/DarkNetMarkets/comments/5s63o3/guide_syscoin_tor_setup_fully_decentralized/)

------
hellbanner
Hello, I am looking for a decentralized store that lets me:

* Host digital goods (like run a server, or issue an asset ID that can be redeemed on a bittorrent style network for the file download) * Receive payment > register an asset or return a download key to the account of the user who sent it.

I want automated digital good downloading, paying & receiving BTC. (Bitpay,
Stripe etc pay in BTC but seller receives $Currency)

~~~
webkike
This comment isn't relevant.

Also, dude, you're gonna get caught up by the feds so fast.

~~~
hellbanner
How is this not relevant? "decentralized bitcoin marketplace". I want to sell
digital goods (games) for BTC and receive BTC. And where did I say anything
about avoiding taxes?

~~~
webkike
You are not contributing to a discussion, you are asking for a service. Also I
didn't imply you are trying to avoid taxes. You suggested that yourself.

~~~
hellbanner
Then what was your "feds catch up" about if not avoiding taxes?

~~~
webkike
Anything. Selling drugs, for example. You are implicating yourself. Stop.

------
dang
Some previous discussions:
[https://hn.algolia.com/?query=openbazaar%20points%3E15&sort=...](https://hn.algolia.com/?query=openbazaar%20points%3E15&sort=byDate&dateRange=all&type=story&storyText=false&prefix=false&page=0)

------
hdhzy
I can't find details on dispute resolution. Are they using multisig escrow
transactions like Silk Road?

~~~
rhu86
I'm fairly sure Silk Road never offered multisig transactions.

Here's a (fairly old) blog post describing how escrow works in OpenBazaar:

[https://blog.openbazaar.org/how-moderators-and-dispute-
resol...](https://blog.openbazaar.org/how-moderators-and-dispute-resolution-
work-in-openbazaar/)

------
bigbass1
[https://www.reddit.com/r/DarkNetMarkets/comments/5s63o3/guid...](https://www.reddit.com/r/DarkNetMarkets/comments/5s63o3/guide_syscoin_tor_setup_fully_decentralized/)

------
SpeakMouthWords
How does the unit economics work here? To my understanding, BTC (even after
SegWit) has non-negligible transaction fees. Is this site just eating into VC
money to make things feeless?

~~~
wmf
I'm sure you still have to pay Bitcoin transaction fees. They should really
say that there are no _additional_ fees to use Open Bazaar since it is open
source.

~~~
xur17
They should really move to Ethereum. I have regularly been paying ~$0.01 for
transactions that verify in under a minute.

~~~
Frogolocalypse
> They should really move to Ethereum.

The project is opensource. If you feel there are features that you would like
to have in it, I'm sure they will appreciate your input to the project.

------
ycui1986
Not sure if anyone used Open Bazaar on Hacker News. I tried it and forget to
close it. After 24-hours, this program leaked 4GB memory. How could the
developer let this happen?

------
kepler
Seems interesting but I couldn't get pass the language setup on Mac.

~~~
SamPatt
We've gotten a few reports of this now, we're looking into it.

------
phaed
Would like to see a sellers API / webhooks for automation.

------
mkj
Is there currently a plan how the OB company will make money?

------
omarchowdhury
In the crypto-darknet community, the word is that this is where the drug trade
is going to move to after the recent busts of the past weeks.

~~~
aphextron
How pleasant

~~~
johndevor
Better than in the streets.

~~~
vectorpush
People who buy drugs "in the streets" generally aren't versed in how to
acquire and manage cryptocurrency. Most people buying drugs have a personal
relationship with a dealer and don't do transactions "in the streets".
Additionally, actually acquiring cryptocurrency requires a bank account in
good standing and a ton of invasive KYC paperwork which will raise suspicions
and alienate "street buyers". Finally, in my personal opinion, a street
transaction would be preferable to giving out my address to anonymous dealers
on the internet, but I know some may agree on that point.

~~~
jstanley
> Additionally, actually acquiring cryptocurrency requires a bank account in
> good standing and a ton of invasive KYC paperwork which will raise
> suspicions and alienate "street buyers".

This is false. You can acquire cryptocurrency just as easily as you can
acquire cash: sell things for it, exchange currency with friends, exchange
currency with people you find on LocalBitcoins, steal it, run a business
taking payment in it, ...

~~~
vectorpush
> _You can acquire cryptocurrency just as easily as you can acquire cash:_

This is obviously untrue. Cash is ubiquitous throughout every corner of
society, while cryptocurrency is extremely niche to the point of practical
obscurity.

> _sell things for it_

The overwhelming majority of potential buyers will not have even heard of
crypto.

> _exchange currency with friends_

Very few people have friends who dabble in cryptocurrency.

> _exchange currency with people you find on LocalBitcoins_

Risky, time-consuming and impractical, especially for someone that's only
looking to buy some weed. Additionally, localbitcoins puts you back "in the
streets", you're better off just exchanging cash for drugs in the streets
rather than exchanging cash for crypto in the streets so you can go back
online to buy the drugs.

> _steal it, run a business taking payment in it, ..._

That is absurd. You're not making a very convincing case.

~~~
johndevor
Bitcoin ATMs are very popular and easy. I know a guy who runs some and I know
what kind of clientele use it... A lot are in rough shape to say the least.
And he does very large volume that is growing fast.

~~~
vectorpush
Bitcoin ATMs are rare, notoriously unreliable, often require invasive KYC and
_always_ come with a gigantic markup.

------
erlend_sh
What's the business model for openbazaar.org, i.e. the core team? How are you
going to sustain development?

------
bobsgame
It's just like Napster->Kazaa->Gnutella all over again! In 10 years there will
be iTunes.

~~~
eternauta3k
In what sense? This is not a file sharing platform. Also, money is exchanged
here.

~~~
erikb
In the sense that it's not clear how openbazaar developers will earn money.

~~~
olegkikin
They can add the fees later, when (if) it gets popular. If the fees are low
enough, forking it would be too much hassle.

~~~
tylersmith
As an OB dev myself, I could and would remove any amount of built in fees. We
can make money providing services to users without rent seeking from everyone.

~~~
erikb
Yes, but you probably agree that putting ethics above money means there's a
higher risk of losing the long term game in a capitalist world.

~~~
jpetso
Funnily enough, putting money over ethics also presents a high risk of losing
the long term game... if your long term goal is to end up with something user-
centric and ethical.

~~~
erikb
Not sure I'm getting the point. "end up with something user-centric and
ethical" also implies the much simpler requirement of "end up with something".

Maybe if one implies that to "end up with something unethical" is as bad or
worse than "end up with nothing"?

------
optimalsolver
What's the point if it doesn't support Tor or some other anonymizing service?

~~~
icebraining
It seems it does, as of this year: [https://github.com/OpenBazaar/openbazaar-
go/pull/342](https://github.com/OpenBazaar/openbazaar-go/pull/342)

~~~
optimalsolver
I stand corrected. Wish this project the best.

------
headmelted
Aaaannnnndddd..... Silk Road has re-launched.

I actually think technologically this looks like quite the achievement, but
it's hard for me to see this being used at all for legal commerce. It's just
so much of an audience barrier to trade exclusively in cryptocurrencies.

I like the use of Multisig though. Nice touch.

------
davidgerard
Does this version still require the vendor to keep their PC online 24/7?

~~~
tylersmith
2.0, which is not yet released but coming soon, does not require an always-on
connection anymore.

------
strictlyCrypto
Is there a business model? Compensation for continued development?

------
HirojaShibe
I cannot wait for 2.0 it has been a longtime coming.

------
acover
How does this work? Where is the store list stored?

~~~
jstanley
It is distributed over a peer-to-peer network.

~~~
acover
They mention ipfs. Ipfs doesn't have a method of multiple people writing to
one key.

How do they tackle this problem?

Edit: thanks in advance. I reached my time cap trying to find out

~~~
tylersmith
When a vendor creates a listing it's created as an ipfs file. Vistors download
and seed them and we've added broadcasting so when you update your store
changes will be pushed out to willing nodes preemptively.

~~~
aboodman
Is there an architectural diagram or a protocol flow somewhere? I would love
to understand the lifecycle of a listing.

In particular, I'm curious if in effect every client has to find, download,
validate, and index every listing. And how far you expect that to scale.

------
ultim8k
This is huge!

------
dghughes
Ah the good ole days when I had $5 in my wallet and paid by taking the $5 note
out and handing it to the cashier.

------
matthewbauer
Am I the only one here that gets a little terrified by this kind of thing? I
mean I'm fine if they're just selling recreational drugs. But, we all know
that there are much worse things people will be selling on these crypto
markets than just plain old LSD and marijuana. Can we find a way to help law
enforcement police at the very least the really, really bad stuff?

~~~
thomastjeffery
> Can we find a way to help law enforcement police at the very least the
> really, really bad stuff?

Law enforcement was designed to protect people (or their property) from the
actions of _other people_ , not _themselves_.

Law enforcement is fundamentally incapable of protecting people from
themselves. That is why the "war on drugs" has been so ineffective.

The most effective method to stop the drug (opioid, etc.) epidemic is
_treatment_ and _education_ , not law enforcement.

~~~
seanp2k2
I think that the _really really bad stuff_ here is e.g. Human trafficking,
chemical weapons, assassination services, etc...not even any drugs, and as
you've pointed out, people harming other people. How do you police that here,
or don't you?

~~~
Trundle
All of those require physical actions apart from just a digital transaction.
At some point a human is trafficked somewhere from somewhere else, they can
follow that. Chemical weapons are sent somewhere from somewhere, they can
follow those. An assassin shows up somewhere, they can grab them there.

All of which can be orchestrated by the police themselves. In an anonymous
transaction the other party could very well be the FBI.

------
notindexed
Don't wanna be the partypooper but Blockmarket wins the dex marketplace niche
;-)

[http://syscoin.org/](http://syscoin.org/)

~~~
tylersmith
There's no reason for a p2p marketplace to be tied to certain medium of
exchange or to use a blockchain for anything else but identity and reputation.

