
Property managers bring in Alexa to manage tenants - dsr12
https://www.wsj.com/articles/amazons-plan-to-move-in-to-your-next-apartment-before-you-do-11559361605
======
steve-benjamins
My wife works in a woman's shelter and Alexa / smart home devices is a common
way women in abusive relationships are harassed and monitored...

Edit for clarity: Even if a woman has a restraining order against the abuser,
the abuser will turn on music in the middle of the night, mess with the
lights, turn the thermostat down etc. If the woman still lives with the
abuser, smart devices (not necessarily Alexa) are used to monitoring comings
and goings.

One person often sets up the devices and the other person has no understanding
of how to turn these things off. Even more often: the harassed woman doesn't
even realize what's happening is due to the man controlling smart devices— the
harassed is "gaslighted" and thinks they're going crazy ("why does the
temperature keep PLUMMETING?").

~~~
daenz
EDIT>> Totally misunderstood the parent post.

~~~
steve-benjamins
No, I mean smart devices are used to harass women in entirely new ways.

Men often are the ones who setup the devices. Even if they have a restraining
order they will turn music on in the middle of the night, mess with the
lights, turn the thermostat down etc. Before a restraining order smart devices
are often used for monitoring.

------
bilbo0s
Have I just become a curmudgeonly old man yelling at kids to stay off my lawn?
I mean I don't feel old and out of touch, but something is off?

Is everyone else really out there demanding these types of services and
technologies be installed in their homes as a prerequisite to even living
there?

If you're one of the people who use these kinds of devices, and you don't mind
me asking, why is it you guys like these types of devices and services? And do
the privacy issues here concern any of you at all?

As a matter of full disclosure, the privacy issues seem obvious and deal
breaking to me, but clearly that's not the consensus view.

~~~
ravenstine
All I want is a thermostat with a better screen and a UI that doesn't require
cycling through abbreviated options. Beyond that, I don't want a "smart home",
and especially not one connected directly to FAANG. We don't need these
devices, and even non engineers aren't exactly clamoring for them. It's more
like everyone just likes the novelty of it all, but is generally disappointed
when the devices under deliver.

People should reject devices from Amazon. As I have mentioned in other HN
threads, I am speaking as someone who quit their job to build a business based
on Alexa. You have no real control over such devices, they are prone to
flipping on randomly, and most of the advantages are in Amazon's favor.

One day, these tech companies might become our literal governments. I'm not
going to help them do this because controlling my house with my voice is a
neat parlor trick.

~~~
userbinator
The UI of my thermostat is a simple dial showing the heat/cool setpoints and
the current temperature. It is completely dumb and that's the way I like it,
because its only job is to keep my house at a constant temperature.

Others are often surprised that I work in tech, yet everything else about me
has been described as "luddist" \--- but that's because I know about the "dark
side" of all these new "smart" things.

~~~
gowld
A constant temp house wastes money and pollutes the environment.

~~~
userbinator
...and all these new e-waste-generating technologies don't?

Also, thermal fatigue is a well-known failure mode:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temperature_cycling](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temperature_cycling)

------
blhack
I guess I’ll be the dissenter. This all seems really cool to me. There’s
actually an amazon owned apartment complex being built almost across the
street from my house (in Tempe, Az), and I had been wondering if they’d do
stuff like this.

We have an Alexa in our house, and use it all the time. For the kids moving
into these apartments they’re building, I’m sure the high-endiness of having
voice controlled lights and music everywhere is a big selling point.

Nobody outside of our little tech bubble ever thinks about how this stuff
works, and they likely don’t care. If they do (like my wife and I) we just
treat it appropriately.

I guess it’s kindof like the way we all used to look at “work networks” — it
was WAY faster than your home connection, but the IT guy could probably spy on
you. So use it for fun stuff and think it’s cool, but if you ever didn’t want
the IT guy to have the option of seeing what you were doing, use something
else (or in our case at our house: turn it off)

~~~
jslabovitz
> There’s actually an amazon owned apartment complex being built almost across
> the street from my house (in Tempe, Az), and I had been wondering if they’d
> do stuff like this.

 _What?_ Are you serious? It's one thing for Amazon to partner with builders &
landlords, but another for them to actually start building themselves. I tried
to research this, but came up with nothing except that Tempe does have an
Amazon research center. Do you have any other links that would be helpful?

~~~
blhack
It’s this complex:
[https://www.thelocaltempe.com/](https://www.thelocaltempe.com/)

There were some local news articles about how this was owner by Whole Foods,
and the apartments above it were supposed to have some tight tie-in to the
store. I can’t find those articles anymore though, so it’s possible I am
wrong, or misunderstood this when it was being written about.

~~~
jslabovitz
I did a little research, and it doesn't appear that the complex is owned by
either Whole Foods or Amazon, but rather a Colorado-based developer (non-
local, haha).

[https://www.statepress.com/article/2019/02/newwholefoodscomi...](https://www.statepress.com/article/2019/02/newwholefoodscomingtotepeprovidesmoreoptionsforstudents)

Your neighbors are apparently upset enough to spend the time creating an
entire faux-site critical of the project! I'm impressed.

[http://thelocaltempe.co](http://thelocaltempe.co)

~~~
blhack
Hahaha that’s actually very funny. Yeah my neighborhood has a very vocal group
of anti-gentrification folks.

~~~
snazz
Choice quotes:

> _SHOP LOCAL!The Local Tempe

Until We Shut That Shit Down

Along with the transportation woes we plan on inflicting on your community, we
will also be building a massive health food store caddy corner from a local
farmer’s market, certainly giving them a run for their money and more than
likely shutting them down. Premium residents will enjoy balcony views of the
dirt lot that used to be a small business....

And at $15 per hour, you and 6 co-workers might meet the income limitations we
ask for our modest (but intimate) west facing first floor studio size
accommodations, with breathtaking vistas of the railroad tracks and a newly
remodeled Chili’s!_

~~~
tzakrajs
Proper good comedy writing was found in that URL. One for the bookmarks.

------
lettergram
I’m fairly confident there will be lawsuits about this... adding listening
devices to your tenants apartments has always been a bad call

~~~
Frost1x
I was gifted a few of these devices and had to return them. For the bulk of
society, they're not seen as invasive listening devices and many willingly pay
hefty fees for them and install them.

Unless you're doing your own NLP locally and designed it, I don't really trust
it. To be fair, most already have cell phones that can be tapped in similar
ways (with additional sensors--it's amazing what you can derive from MEMs
alone) but active assistant listening is usually one of the first "features" I
disable.

~~~
maxerickson
The basic devices are like $40. Hopefully most people that pay more than that
are doing so for reasons like a better speaker.

~~~
Frost1x
I have a friend who has around 20 of these scattered around his house, on the
side porch, etc. He uses them as speakers to play music in different sections
of the house and likes the added feature of having the Google assistant.

If you only get one or a couple I suppose it isn't too expensive. My parents
aren't tech savvy and are quite old and they have 3 themselves in a very small
house.

------
crazygringo
Honestly, this makes a lot of sense. Key sentence:

> _It also means being able to add other Alexa-controlled devices, like
> speakers, smart plugs and lights, more easily._

A lot of my friends who live in newly constructed buildings have speakers
built-in to their apartments. In small NYC apartments, honestly it makes sense
to speakers built into walls/ceilings to save space and control from your
phone with Bluetooth. It's a genuinely nice amenity.

I know so many people with Alexa anyways that it makes sense for them to have
it integrated. And if it's an extra option to control the lighting, even
better.

 _Obviously_ if you have privacy concerns you can just keep it turned off or
ask maintenance to unplug its ethernet. (You still have physical
lightswitches, nothing essential will break.) And nothing's preventing you
from using your own speaker/Google Home/etc. instead on your counter.

But from an apartment amenities standpoint... this is pretty convenient. And
like I said, you can always unplug its internet. It's an option, not something
being forced on you.

~~~
xhgdvjky
you can have built in speakers without alexa

~~~
crazygringo
The point is using Alexa to control your lights is an amenity _like_ built-in
speakers... and also makes obviously sense to integrate _with_ built-in
speakers.

Nobody's saying speakers _require_ Alexa... I think that's pretty obvious.

------
netwanderer3
"For Amazon, the appeal is obvious: Adding millions of new users to its
services and gaining access to data like their voice-based wish lists and
Alexa-powered shopping habits..."

It's okay folks. There are no privacy concerns here as they only want your
voice-based wish lists and shopping habits data. Once again people just love
exaggerating on these topics. /s

~~~
wolco
I remember when we didn't need a /s we assumed everyone got the joke. I took
it seriously until I hit the /s but never would have years ago.

When did sarcasm stop registering? I was watching a webseries from the early
2000s and everything had that tone.

~~~
wool_gather
> When did sarcasm stop registering?

[In 1983][0]:

> 8\. Avoid sarcasm and facetious remarks.

> Without the voice inflection and body language of personal communication
> these are easily misinterpreted. A sideways smile, :-), has become widely
> accepted on the net as an indication that "I'm only kidding". If you submit
> a satiric item without this symbol, no matter how obvious the satire is to
> you, do not be surprised if people take it seriously.

[0]:[https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups=#!msg/net.announ...](https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups=#!msg/net.announce/8CsYPJuZ4Hg/8em44sgCCVYJ)

------
zamalek
I'm one of the fools who uses one of these spying devices. I know and accept
the risks.

I'm in the Google camp. They are a less trustworthy company, but difference in
reliability and interoperability is anything but subtle.

I'd be pretty pissed if I found out that my place was hard-wired to the
inferior product on _move-in day._ My Google Play Movies account is pretty
extensive, I use other things that don't work with Amazon (because they
emulate Apple's walled garden). This needs to be disclosed up-front, not only
for people who wisely avoid these devices, but also those who prefer the
competition.

------
eternauta3k
You could leave a computer playing synthesized speech at Alexa all day just to
fuck with it.

~~~
netwanderer3
This is probably the best strategy. One obviously cannot stop them monitoring
you since there are just so many different surveillance techniques nowadays.
Therefore the best way to deal with it is by constantly throwing garbage and
useless data into the pipeline so that it may confuse their algorithms and
stop them from profiling the individual.

~~~
robotresearcher
So they profile you as a person that messes with Alexa.

------
cabaalis
I use Alexa nearly every day to tell me the weather while I'm getting dressed
and to play music on spotify. I ask it the occasional math problem, trivia
question, etc.

Paranoia aside, what's my exposure level?

~~~
dontbenebby
Counterpoint: I use my iPhone to do the same, it takes an extra few seconds to
tap to look at the weather and queue up a couple podcasts. Why raise my
exposure to save 5 seconds?

------
tzs
Semi-OT: I suspect that Amazon is going to end up with the lion's share of the
smart home assistant market.

I see a lot of Amazon advertising on television for Alexa and their devices. I
don't see much for Google, and I don't think I've ever seen a TV for Apple's
device.

Furthermore, I'm now seeing Alexa being mentioned outside of Amazon ads. For
example, Frito Lay has a TV ad that is a variant on one of their earlier ads
for their variety pack of snack sizes bags of potato chip. In the variant as
the mom in the ad leaves for her daughter's soccer game, taking the variety
pack with her to provide snacks for the kids, she calls out to Alexa to order
another pack, and a text overlay shows the exact phrasing for this order.

I don't know if Frito Lay added the Alexa bit on their own, or Amazon paid
them to do so [1], but either way if this starts happening with other products
I think it will really give Amazon a boost.

[1] I can see it going either way. I can see Amazon paying to be included as a
way to promote Alexa. But maybe Frito Lay makes more on the sale if you buy
via Amazon than if you buy from your local store, and so they did it on their
own.

------
vibrolax
Aside from the privacy issue, all these cloud-connected devices become bricks
when the manufacturer goes bust, discontinues the "service", or decides you
need to buy a new one because they've deemed yours obsolete.

~~~
maratd
Yes and no. Yes for the smaller manufacturers, which is why I never buy cloud-
anything from them. For the larger ones, they never go bust, but they do
cancel. They have enough of a user base that things get rooted and custom
solutions are available after death.

------
Pulletwee12549
What surprised me was that the article didn't mention anything about the
ability to deactivate the use of the system. Why wouldn't the reporter have
asked about that detail?

------
jplayer01
For a second I thought they were moving into real estate/housing as the next
market to disrupt. That would've been fun.

~~~
nickstefan12
Same! Another industry they could play monopoly with

------
dredmorbius
What's that noir short story where the guy is trying to bargain with his smart
pay-per-use door to open up?

------
neonate
[http://archive.is/lar6t](http://archive.is/lar6t)

------
dsr12
Link without paywall: [https://www.wsj.com/articles/amazons-plan-to-move-in-
to-your...](https://www.wsj.com/articles/amazons-plan-to-move-in-to-your-next-
apartment-before-you-do-11559361605?mod=rsswn)

~~~
e40
Can you share how you got that non-paywall link?

~~~
dsr12
You can append ?mod=rsswn at the end of WSJ urls to get non-paywall links. I
submitted the story with this param but for some reason it's missing. Maybe I
made some mistake in copy/pasting. I learnt about this trick from a HN comment
in the past.

~~~
Fiveplus
Any similar tricks you wanna share for other soft paywall-heavy websites?

------
DennisP
I'd love to read this but their paywall is effective. Could someone sum it up?

~~~
AlphaWeaver
Try Googling the article title and then clicking on the article from there.
The Google Referer header should disable the paywall.

~~~
colinbartlett
That never works for me for WSJ, I think they disabled that.

------
arcbyte
What is up with all these links to paywalled websites? Can't read any of this
garbage.

~~~
dogweather
Subscribe?

~~~
DennisP
I do subscribe to one major newspaper. I'm not going to subscribe to twenty.

Subscriptions are a very inefficient payment mechanism, when we're reading
just a few articles each from lots of different publishers. If I could click a
button and pay a little bit per article, I would. It'd be less work than
getting around the paywall.

