
The clothes don't make the man (boy) - bootload
http://www.stanford.edu/~pgbovine/popularity.htm
======
wjy
I submit that the author is not finely attuned to teen boys' fashion in his
area, and so presumes the nerds are dressed just as "well" as the popular
guys. The difference can be made by the smallest things: shoe brand, specific
hair style, etc. I know by my age, I'm blind to such differences in that age
group.

Also, I object to framing the "popular" situation to be so simple. I was
definitely a nerd in school but, like the guys in the post, had a group of
friends and my own activities. The popular kids were definitely a different
group, but they weren't better than us. It's not a linear ordering of groups.

~~~
pgbovine
_I was definitely a nerd in school but, like the guys in the post, had a group
of friends and my own activities. The popular kids were definitely a different
group, but they weren't better than us. It's not a linear ordering of groups._

totally agree, i had the same experience in high school. i hope i didn't imply
in my article that there is a linear ordering of groups (i haven't read it
over in a long time).

in my high school, the nerds were often comfortable in their own skin (and had
deep interests that could engage them), but the majority of kids in high
school aren't nerds and aren't popular either ... they're somewhere in
between. those are the kids who strive to become popular and have all sorts of
angst because many fail to achieve that goal.

~~~
hachiya
The kids "somewhere in between" "strive to become popular and have all sorts
of angst"?

That's a pretty big claim for ALL the kids who are neither nerds nor popular.
I speculate that a great deal of those kids don't obsess about highschool
drama, don't "strive to become popular", and don't end up with "all sorts of
angst."

Also, one could safely consider that perhaps the author of a lengthy article
about middle school and high school popularity has some undealt-with angst
issues...

I'm just saying that I'd be careful about making sweeping generalizations,
unless you want to come across as harboring that angst yourself.

------
pgbovine
this is the author here ... ummm i'm pleasantly surprised to find my article
on HN. anyways, here are two other articles that are probably better than mine
on this subject:

\- Why Nerds are Unpopular (i'm sure everyone knows this is by Paul Graham)
<http://www.paulgraham.com/nerds.html>

\- Is there life after high school? (by a retired elderly man who went to high
school 50 years ago but whose observations stand the test of time)

[http://www.stanford.edu/~pgbovine/after-high-school-guest-
ar...](http://www.stanford.edu/~pgbovine/after-high-school-guest-article.htm)

~~~
bootload
_"... this is the author here ... ummm i'm pleasantly surprised to find my
article on HN. anyways, here are two other articles that are probably better
than mine on this subject ..."_

I added the post for a number of reasons.

Lots of younger Nerds benefit from reading multiple viewpoints, yours, Alan
Wayte ~ [http://www.stanford.edu/~pgbovine/after-high-school-guest-
ar...](http://www.stanford.edu/~pgbovine/after-high-school-guest-article.htm)
and pg. The situation does not seem to be improving. Can anything be done?

Popularity is now pervading the Internet and persisting on places on social
networks like Facebook, where bonds formed in High School can be continued
with all the same dynamics. The catch, the playground is now being defined by
Nerds. Changing the real world might be hard but what about social networks
modeled in software? The same _"social-ineptness"_ that makes Nerds good at
programming has so far meant replicating ineptness in software. This is a hard
problem and a hint to creating tools to manage or navigate such networks might
be found in the science behind "Small World Networks" ~
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Small-world_network>

------
davidw
> I started the year sitting alone in a secluded corner of the cafeteria but
> eventually found a group of 3 other complete social outcasts to sit with.

We're thinking about whether to stay in Italy or go to the US, and this is
definitely a big plus for Italy: sure, people have groups and cliques and
things, but nowhere near like they do in the states. Or at least that's been
my experience, and is somewhat confirmed by most of my friends here. I don't
know any 'geeks' here who are as socially out of place as many in the US -
everyone has friends, most all of them have girlfriends, social lives, and
hobbies and activities outside of computers.

~~~
hachiya
I've heard this about European countries, such as Italy and Spain, many times
over the years.

If it is indeed true in general, I wonder why. Better family structure leading
to less insecurity among kids, so they don't take out as many of their issues
on classmates later in life? Different kinds of TV shows molding their
impressionable minds when young? There are likely a variety of factors, but I
haven't come across an explanation.

~~~
davidw
I honestly don't know... it's sort of weird, because Italy is a place where
people are generally attuned to fashion and looks and 'superficial' things.
Maybe it's different for men and women here (indeed, I'm sure it is), and my
observations mostly regard my male friends and are fairly subjective anyway.
Still, though, people really seem to behave like vicious animals in the US at
that age, and I think it's something people ought to be ashamed of.

------
andrewvc
_these dorks I saw were wearing the latest trendy Southern California clothes
like baggy jeans, surfer shirts, cargo shorts, skater shoes, etc._

Ummm, why does the author of this article feel that he knows what's in style?
That stuff hardly sounds like anything I see considered in style at the time
(the article was written in 2006), but I can't speak to what's popular at
Irvine high schools. My guess is the only way to really know would require
some real research. Often times clothes can look similar to an outsider, but
to someone in the know small differences make all the difference.

Can you tell the difference between a $1000 Marc Jacobs bag and a $30000
Hermes Bag? I sure can't, but my ex-girlfriend could spot the difference from
a mile away.

~~~
miloshh
Here the question is more like - what makes a teenage boy fall into the top
50% or bottom 50% of popularity? The guys in the top 50% most likely did not
get there by extreme attention to detail or by wearing expensive accessories.

Why is it that nerdy kids often fall into the bottom 50% despite their clothes
not being substantially different from others is an interesting question that
has not been conclusively answered. If it is because they are short, weak and
have unattractive faces, then what in the world causes the correlation with
IQ?

~~~
andrewvc
I agree that clothes aren't everything, they're really only a part of what
makes someone popular in high school, but in a way what you're saying proves
my point.

You say that nerds don't dress substantially differently, that's not true at
all. I'm the son of a fashion designer, so I pay a lot more attention to what
I and others wear than the average nerd, so perhaps I can help. Fact is, most
programmers dress in clothes that could be at best be described as boring and
conventional.

The fact is, if you don't really pay close attention to what people are
wearing, stuff starts to look similar, if you do pay attention, you see lots
of differences. Programmers generally look at clothes as functional items,
they don't get excited at the prospect of owning some awesome piece of
clothing.

I tend to buy my best clothes at sales at a 50 - 75% markdown, when they're
usually a season or more out of style (so those $230 jeans get knocked down to
$80), which is fine by me. Most programmers I've met would consider spending
even $80 on a pair of jeans ridiculous. Now, money won't buy you style, I
think lots of programmers who try and dress well just end up buying expensive
crap, but it can help.

Plenty of stylish people dress cheaply, but doing so takes a lot of time,
combing thrift stores and lower priced stores putting together clothes that
look stylish buried amidst mediocre clothes. That takes talent and real time
and energy.

Point is, style isn't something most programmers do well, because they aren't
excited about clothes. If you can't be passionate about something, how can you
hope to do it well?

------
tungstenfurnace
The thinking in this article is heading in the right direction; it's not what
you wear but how you look early on that determines your popularity.

This is already known to some extent. For example, PUAs deliberately wear
uncool clothing as a kind of peacock's tail. ("I'm so popular I can dress
weird and _still_ be loved by everyone.")

However, it's not quite all the way there. It's _who you are_ that determines
how popular you are. Your character. Note that this will also affect your
appearance -- not just your choice of clothes, but your physical appearance.
People who are angry or upset all the time will show that on their faces. It
is a drain on their health. Over time this has an uglifying effect, especially
over the growth years.

Appearance, intellect, riches, gifts, favours you perform, even glamour -- who
you are trumps all these when it comes to how likeable you are.

People bully other people by trying to get a 'rise' out of them. They try to
provoke a negative emotional response. This is only possible if the target
feels ashamed of himself in some way. Nerds _do_ feel ashamed of themselves.

This is why Sheldon Cooper might just be a role model for nerds. He is not
ashamed of himself. He values intellectual accomplishment over popularity and
sex.

Sheldon aside, however: character is not fixed, so popularity can never be
fixed.

------
chipsy
I honestly don't remember much about high school popularity. I remember being
constantly stressed by the long days and the academic workload and how
everyone - EVERYONE, teachers, parents, students - was expressing a uniform
goal of "GET GOOD GRADES TO GET INTO A GOOD COLLEGE." I probably could have
hung out with different groups than I did, I probably could have dated plenty
of girls, but I just wasn't paying attention. High school was about hoping
that the world would just leave me alone for a while.

In the end, I got politely acceptable grades and got into a good enough
college, where I proceeded to wish that college would just leave me alone for
a while, but at least it was better than high school. But then I finished
college, and entered the real world, and everything was simple again. Even the
stressful parts.

~~~
pgbovine
just out of curiosity, did you attend an academically-intense high school? if
so, then perhaps people weren't as obsessed with popularity because there was
so much competition to get the highest grades and into the best colleges. but
i would imagine that even in an intense school, there would still be athletes,
cheerleaders, etc. (maybe the effect of popularity isn't as pronounced,
though)

~~~
derefr
People need to rank others; they need a contest of some sort. A popularity
contest is simply the broken positive feedback loop that's left when no valid
comparison function can be found. In a school where everyone takes academics
seriously, there's no need for popularity, because there's a working well-
ordering already established (i.e. Through grades.)

Note that, unlike having a low ranking in a popularity contest, having a low
meritocratic ranking isn't that bad for you, socially; although people like to
rank others, they don't particularly _care_ about the ranks once they're
established. This is why popularity contests make people behave badly: since
there's positive feedback, your ranking can change severely without any effort
on your part—and you then start caring again, to get it stabilized.

------
Tichy
I am not quite buying it, especially the part about popular activities being
barred for ugly people. So you can't get elected for school government? Fine,
you can start zillions of other clubs or activities. Write for the newspaper,
show or make movies, start a band (if you are ugly, start a death metal hate
band maybe), whatever.

Perhaps the main aspect of being unpopular is being too self-conscious to
actually go out there and start things, talk to people and so on. So you find
yourself at the "unpopular table" - have you even tried sitting down at the
popular table, or did you just assume you did not belong from the start?

That said, of course it isn't possible to make everybody like you. But it
isn't necessary either.

~~~
pgbovine
(this is the author here ... wow i'm amazed somebody actually found my article
and posted it to HN ... cool!)

most of the interesting clubs or school activities aren't a road towards high
school popularity. (e.g., death metal hate bands aren't exactly for popular
kids, nor is film club)

Edit: Re _Fine, you can start zillions of other clubs or activities._ I think
the key point here is that _starting_ a club isn't really a path towards
popularity, because the whole point of high school popularity is to _conform_
to an already-existing 'cool' path, like being a football player or
cheerleader. Being entrepreneurial and creative will likely lead you in the
opposite direction (make no mistake, i think it's more fulfilling and useful
... it just won't get you to be popular)

~~~
Tichy
Being in a death metal band would make you popular among death metal fans.
What is the definition of high school popularity anyway? If the definition is
"being rich and beautiful", then no, being in a death metal band might not
help.

~~~
pgbovine
my definition of popularity is the form portrayed in mainstream media and
films ... e.g., student council officers, athletes, cheerleaders

you bring up a good point, though. the popular kids are actually in the
minority at school; there are far more unpopular kids than popular kids. so
there will likely be _more_ people who like death metal, computer games, etc.
than the 'popular' activities.

~~~
Tichy
I guess the one thing that matters is getting to date a pretty girl, who would
most likely belong to the in-crowd.

But still, if you were in a Death Metal Band, at least you would have some
nice things to remember about High School.

------
shib71
This is a very depressing post because the fatalistic premise rings true. The
high school hotbox can be very hard for some people. It's a good thing status
starts depending on other things (expertise, success) later.

When it comes helping a kid fake 'coolness' I think there's merit. There ARE
real advantages to not being pigeon holed as a nerd and getting a head start
on those social skills.

------
wallflower
I believe multiple "lives" is what makes me happier.

I loved this monologue statement from "The Breakfast Club". While a bit cute,
I feel it is true and meshes with the other quote below from the author of
Fight Club, Chuck Palahniuk's book on his hometown Portland, "Fugitives and
Refugees".

> Dear Mr. Vernon, we accept the fact that we had to sacrifice a whole
> Saturday in detention for whatever it was we did wrong. But we think you're
> crazy to make us write an essay telling you who we think we are. You see us
> as you want to see us...In the simplest terms, in the most convenient
> definitions. But what we found out is that each one of us is a brain...an
> athlete...a basket case...a princess...and a criminal...Does that answer
> your question? Sincerely yours, the Breakfast Club.

> "Everyone in Portland is living a minimum of three lives," says Katherine
> Dunn, the author of Geek Love. She says, "Everyone has at least three
> identities." She's sitting in the window of her apartment in Northwest
> Portland, rolling cigarettes and smoking them, her long blond hair parted in
> the middle and tied back. She's wearing black-framed glasses. The radiators
> clank and a siren goes by, four stories below on Glisan Street.

"They're a grocery store checker, an archaeologist, and a biker guy," she
says. 'Or they're a poet, a drag queen, and a bookstore clerk."

In my opinion, observing my sibling's children up close this holiday season -
especially the older ones - birth order contributing to assertiveness (my 2-yr
old niece saying 'Move!' to tell me to move aside so she can sit next to her
Mom - what am I going to do? she's still not in the sentence formation phase.
should I chastise her?).. has a lot more to do with life success than high
school popularity. Of course, I'm biased.

R.I.P. John Hughes

"Life isn't like college. In fact, it's more like high school" -Anonymous

------
rokhayakebe
In high school, I was somewhere in the middle. Although closer to the smart
kids, I always maintain a cool look, not to try and fit, but just because I
liked it. I hung out with both the cool popular kids, and the smart ones.

Parents should teach their kids to be broad and have friends with different
interests and background. To this day (11 years later) I am fairly the same.
Hang out with both engineers who talk about Java during lunch and we exchange
emails weekly about their latest project, next startup, and I also hang out
who love to cash a check, go buy Rock Republic and spend the rest at the W on
Saturday night.

------
kilian
What sounds most familiar to me in both this article and Paul Graham's, is
that, for the most part, nerds ("we") see through the game and decide it's not
worth the attention. I spent the last 3 years (out of 6 here in NL) playing a
game with my mother. Every day she would ask if I learned something new, I
would reply with "no".

Unfortunately, college here works about the same.

------
daniel-cussen
You can also easily fuck up your newcomer popularity with ADD.

~~~
pgbovine
or, like myself in 7th grade, you can start as a newcomer already at the
bottom of the pile :)

