
Wizard of the Coast asking fans to scan old books - thenipper
http://support.dmsguild.com/hc/en-us/articles/216504408
======
cptskippy
This doesn't sound like it's coming from the perspective of someone looking to
archive or preserve these books, but rather someone who is looking to exploit
other people to produce something they can monetize with no regard for
quality.

They're accepting a container format (PDF) that's just a wrapper around a
JPEG, PNG, TIFF or other rasters. Or they'd like a lossy format (JPEG) with no
suggested compression settings.

They'd like you to use the enhancement features/filters of your scanner
software which is like Instagramming your photos. Presumably because they
don't have a processing workflow in place to perform this themselves.

They want you to convert what will natively be captured as RGB to CMYK,
something you generally don't leave up to amateurs if you have any interest in
maintaining an accurate conversion.

That all tells me they don't care to have quality master scans they can go
back to, they just want something passable they can sell to others.

~~~
e1ven
To be fair, if the company doesn't have the masters any more, but they want to
give people legal access, they need to start somewhere... After they have a
scanned copy, they at least have the ABILITY to re-type the text, fix the
formatting, etc.

I empathize a lot with what they're trying to do. Imagine if you're a
passionate employee, who cares about the books you grew up with. They're fun
to read, and you really want to give more people access to them.

After months of pushing, your bosses give-in - Sure, sell the only stuff
online.. But this isn't likely to make much money, so we're not giving you a
budget for the project.

This gives them a way to get started - If the titles sell, and are popular,
they can go back, and argue that it's worth improving their quality. If not,
at least they're legally available at ALL, and that's better than letting them
be forgotten.

~~~
cptskippy
Those are some valid points but the request to use descreening filters seems
strange. Descreening is used to remove halftoning from images, not text.

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6stringmerc
This superficially reminds me of Metallica's recent request for fans to send
in old materials, which have been compiled into large box sets for the
reissues of _Kill 'Em All_ and _Ride the Lightenting_ which were, in their
heydey, bolstered by fan passion and tape trading. Now that the material has
been curated / massaged / etc, fans can get ahold of the box sets for the one-
time fee of $149.99. Each.

~~~
hackuser
Do they want copies of Metallica's lawsuit against their own fans who used
Napster?

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mikestew
Sure. I'll scan 'em in and then send the magnet link to which they can point
their torrent client. No? You want me to be a digital sharecropper where I do
the work, send the results only to you, and you reap the profits? Mmm, gonna
have to pass on that one.

~~~
IvyMike
> I do the work

I find it hard to believe that you believe that scanning a work (even if rare)
that they own the rights to means that you deserve a cut of future profits.
You could argue that $50 may not be enough money, but a fixed rate fee seems
pretty reasonable for doing what amounts to manual labor.

~~~
teddyh
Except that mikestew _in no way_ asked for “a cut in the future profits”. He
offered to make the results available for free for everyone.

~~~
IvyMike
I'd argue when he used the phrase "digital sharecropper", he _did_ imply that.

There's no official definition of "digital sharecropper", but Atwood's is as
good as any: "Digital sharecroppers typically get nothing in return for the
content they've provided, and often give up all rights to what they've
created." [https://blog.codinghorror.com/are-you-a-digital-
sharecropper...](https://blog.codinghorror.com/are-you-a-digital-
sharecropper/)

~~~
mikestew
teddyh got it right, and wowser, did you infer a lot from my pithy little
comment. I mean, read what you quoted: "give up all rights to what they've
created", including throwing it up on the pirate bay. Either free for all, or
free for none, because i do charity work for actual charities, not multi-
billion dollar for-profit corporations.

~~~
IvyMike
> charity work

$50 for your labor, no?

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JDazzle
I have a bunch of the books they want and I am definitely willing to scan them
in even with the knowledge that it would be a lot of hard work.

Unfortunately, they recommend that the books be stripped and scanned page by
page for "acceptable" results. That's where I lose all interest. :(

~~~
samstave
We need a D&D nerd on the google book scanning team to get involved so their
scanners can be use for this.

Anyone know how to connect with them??

Wizards should also reach out to this team with this request...

~~~
cptskippy
I think Google's project is less about preserving the book, and more about
indexing the content which is a subtly different goal. They care less about
high fidelity reproduction and more about content acquisition.

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FroshKiller
This isn't Wizards asking, right? It's DriveThruRPG. Remember when Wizards
forced DriveThruRPG to pull all the PDFs of classic D&D books they had for
sale a few years ago? Good times. The worm has turned.

~~~
dkuntz2
Wizards is partnered with them now. The DMGuild thing that the page is under
is Wizard's platform for letting people publish original content coupled with
WotC IP not covered by the OGL. I have some issues with how they handle IP
once someone publishes something to the DM's Guild (or whatever the actual
name is), but the idea is pretty nifty.

Also, WotC has been selling classic (pre-3.0) D&D books through DriveThru for
at least a year (but I feel like it's been longer).

~~~
FroshKiller
Yeah, that's what I was referring to. There was old D&D material on
DriveThruRPG for a few years before Wizards up and made them pull it. This was
back in 2009, a good while after D&D 4th Edition had come out. The PDFs
weren't available for purchase legally again until the beginning of 2013.

I ain't gonna speculate on motivations, but the timing of these events sure
does line up with certain publishing decisions that Wizards was making.

~~~
thenipper
I'd say access completely lines up with their reprints. Also I from what I've
heard about their business now that having the PDFs for sale is probably one
of the few ways to get "new" conent for now. They do seem to be in some what
of a holding pattern. Not a lot of new content and a lot of what is generated
is contracted out.

------
PhasmaFelis
I'm not sure how to interpret this. "WotC has given us permission to republish
their old books, but absolutely will not lift a finger to give us access to
any of them, so we've got to fall back on begging fans to scan their old
stuff" is my best guess.

And then they're telling people to cut the spine off their 30-year-old
collector's item for best scanning results. In exchange for $50. Good luck
with that.

~~~
dsp1234
I wouldn't be surprised if WotC didn't actually have access to the older
reference materials anyways. Stuff is lost all of the time.

That said, this definitely sounds like "We'll give you $50 bucks so that we
can start reselling it since the rights are ours anyways. Thanks Chumps!"

~~~
njharman
TSR was notorious for throwing stuff away. Like all the original artwork for
many classic modules and manuals. This was also well before era of digital.

~~~
dsp1234
I'd certainly pay quite a bit for the original drawing/painting for the
Tarrasque[0]

[0] - [http://www.monkeyinthecage.com/wp-
content/uploads/2012/07/Ta...](http://www.monkeyinthecage.com/wp-
content/uploads/2012/07/Tarrasque.jpg)

------
scelerat
I was all ready to help out because I have a stash of most of their missing
1st edition adventures (e.g. S1 Tomb of Horrors, etc.), well-preserved and in
plastic... until I saw this:

> You will get best results by cutting the spine off the book and by using a
> sheet-fed scanner for interiors and a flatbed scanner for covers.

Ack. no way, sorry.

~~~
supergreg
According to the Japanese manga scanlation scene, the best way to get the
pages out without damage is to heat the spine with a hairdrier, or solder gun
or even a microwave so the glue melts away. Also, buy 2 copies, one for
scanning, the other for preserving.

Or so I've heard :^)

~~~
HarryHirsch
Well, libraries have proper equipment and proper staff. Can _you_ imagine the
Vergilius Palatinus cut up for scanning? Turns out, with proper equipment you
don't have to: [http://bibliotheca-laureshamensis-
digital.de/bav/bav_pal_lat...](http://bibliotheca-laureshamensis-
digital.de/bav/bav_pal_lat_1631)

The digital plantation OTOH knows no limit to cheapness and shoddiness. The
rights owner doesn't want to rent equiment for preservation, they don't want
to acquire the material they have rights to, instead they ask someone else to
do the work for them, including post-processing. For USD 50. Wizards of the
Coast, go away and die.

------
blazespin
Uhhh.. for those people yelling "rip off", you have no idea of the demand or
lack of for these titles. This may be the only economical way to get these
titles preserved.

The reality might just be that it just isn't worth it to do it any other way.

As someone who loves old D&D modules (and has actually bought from DriveThru),
I think it's really great.

My guess is that there was someone who works for these guys who also loves old
D&D modules that couldn't convince anyone to make this happen unless they did
it this way.

~~~
shostack
Is there any guarantee (perhaps via some sort of license) that the materials
will be made freely available to all? If not, I'm not sure what the point of
working for free for someone else's gain is.

I think I speak for most hardcore D&D fans when I say that most players will
be perfectly fine continuing to torrent these books for the foreseeable
future. In fact, unless I missed something, I'm kind of surprised this company
didn't just do that since people have gone through the trouble of converting
them to PDF already.

~~~
panzagl
$50 is not free. I worked at a print shop- a D&D module would take like 10
minutes to scan.

------
theresistor
To add a little more fuel to the "this is a rip-off" fire, many of the books
they're looking for in 3.5e, 3e, and 2e are not hard to come by, either in
physical form on auction sites or in digital form. They don't _need_ fans to
do the leg work of finding these books for them. The only reason to do it this
way is to avoid paying fair compensation for the time required to scan them.

------
thenipper
It's great to see that they're taking such an active role in preserving this
aspect of 'nerd heritage'.

------
fapjacks
My gut feeling is there is no way the recent stuff with Archive.org and old
video games hasn't been a major cause of this "project" by Wizards. They have
this huge library of stuff that could be considered abandoned, and with this
they could make the argument that they haven't abandoned the works.

------
mschuster91
Stuff like this is why public libraries are important and not a "relic of the
past".

~~~
dkuntz2
I mean, minus the parts where the libraries wouldn't get any funding from
this, and DriveThru/WotC are making all the profit off sales.

~~~
toomuchtodo
Nothing stops you from dumping the PDFs on the bay afterwards.

~~~
dkuntz2
That still doesn't really help the libraries though. It just makes the content
more accessible through illicit means.

~~~
toomuchtodo
Nothing is going to help libraries except local community action to protect
them (which I fully support). But that's a separate issue from this archival
initiative.

The libraries of today are the community meeting and learning spaces of
tomorrow.

~~~
maerF0x0
My and WotC taxes help libraries. I'm glad they're providing value.

~~~
toomuchtodo
True, but only where you and WotC reside! Libraries are funded through local
property tax (at least in the US).

------
PeterStuer
What is also curious is that simple Google searches such as
[https://www.google.com/search?q=Advanced+Dugeons+and+Dragons...](https://www.google.com/search?q=Advanced+Dugeons+and+Dragons+book+2+edition)
turn op decent scans of the materials on the very first result page. I don't
think this was thought through at all. Is there some legal angle why they need
someone that owns the book send them a personally scanned file?

------
PeterStuer
I have the 1995 prints of the 2nd edition core books (Player's Handbook,
Dungeon Master's Guide and also the Monstrous Manual), sometimes referred to
as the 2.5 edition. They are not in this list and also not in the DMG store.
While rule-wise there were almost no changes from the original 2nd edition,
the layout and color prints got a complete overhaul. And before you ask, no,
I'm not going to cut them up and scan, sorry.

------
mrkidd
Wow, the two adventure modules I have are on the list. They were hella fun to
play and would love to share so others can enjoy. They are stapled bindings
though, and I really don't want to cut the pages to put them through my Doxie.
Any tips on scanning them without having to cut them?

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PeterStuer
I wonder why they didn't trawl eBay first? A lot of what they are after can be
found there for <50$. Is it just to avoid the actual scanning work?

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forgotpwtomain
Wouldn't they be better off purchasing the books and scanning in-house?

