
Living outside America - jjl2
http://ryancarson.com/post/26296475079/living-outside-of-america
======
mixmax
This is a great article, and as a European I can relate to all of his points.
Here are some comments from the other side of the pond; they're of course my
personal opinion but I think they're somewhat representative of the European
view.

 _I don’t view the USA as the center of the world_ \- i see America as an
overreaching empire that has had it's heyday. If you take a historical
perspective this is how many empires fall. They overreach by trying to annex
large parts of the world, spend all of their resources doing so and eventually
implode. The British and Roman empire are good examples.

 _I stopped calling myself a Christian_ \- the fact that many Americans are so
religious is just utterly strange, and somewhat frightening. If the Danish
prime minister started confessing her belief in a god she'd be laughed out of
the room.

 _I occasionally felt embarrassed of America_ \- I have a mixed relation with
America. On the one hand it's a great country with amazing and open people
that will gladly help a stranger, and has an amazing work ethic. On the other
hand I have a problem with Americans not knowing or caring about how the rest
of the world functions, how Americans define themselves in terms of their job,
and their aggressiveness on the Geopolitical arena.

 _I believe America’s time as #1 super-power will come to an end within my
lifetime_ \- I think this is already happening.

~~~
spindritf
> i see America as an overreaching empire that has had it's heyday

And yet most of us are right now using computers designed in America, with an
operating system written in America, posting on an American website. How is
the USA not the centre of the world? From jeans to Katy Perry, from Google to
McDonald's -- Americans totally dominated both the culture and the business.
If I turn on the tv right now, I will have to skip through five channels
before I hit a non-American production.

> the fact that many Americans are so religious is just utterly strange, and
> somewhat frightening

Why? Religious people commit less crime, get and stay married more, use less
illegal drugs, donate and volunteer more... It would make more sense to fear
people becoming less religious.

I'm sure the author didn't mean that, that his observations are an honest
account of his journey but I can't help to notice that articles like this
strike this weird SWPL chord "I'm from America but I'm not like the rest of
those simpletons" (that's a mild version) and comments to them tend to be real
oikophobia festivals.

No, I'm not an American and don't live in the States (otherwise the whole tv
exercise would be pointless).

~~~
mixmax
I'm writing this on a computer produced in China, running an operating systeem
developed by a Finn, delivered to you via the world wide web which comes from
CERN.

~~~
rdtsc
> a computer produced in China

Is it an American company that made it? Yeah it could have been produced in
China because labor there is cheaper than in California. Next year it could be
produced in Vietnam.

> running an operating systeem developed by a Finn

Last I checked he is an American citizen, isn't he? So +1 for America then?
Would you agree? If you go by your logic, then nothing from America is from
America, because most people could easily trace their ancestry to one of the
ships that came America at some point.

> delivered to you via the world wide web which comes from CERN.

Ok, we can argue about the first two. This one is just silly.

~~~
jarek
> Is it an American company that made it?

No shortage of non-American computer and personal electronics manufacturers I
can think of.

> Last I checked he is an American citizen, isn't he?

He wasn't for 95% of his life...

------
pg
I've been able to do the first 3 without leaving (perhaps because I wasn't
born here), and number 4 doesn't seem so certain.

What I noticed about living outside America when I did it later as an adult
was that it made it clearer what was distinctive about the US.

Many of the distinctive things I noticed could be summed up by describing
America as a young culture. Americans have the optimism and energy of youth,
but they're also comparatively unsophisticated.

~~~
sneak
I think there's something to the not being born there that helps. #1 was a
huge revelation to me (I'd like to think I'm observant and well-informed), and
continues to be so to Americans I've had the opportunity to tour-guide for.

I'm really curious where it comes from. Perhaps because of the ubiquity of
American mass-media? Every European knows the New York skyline and what "NYPD"
and "FBI" mean.

How many Americans can spot the difference between Hong Kong and Seoul, or
know what "BKA" stands for?

~~~
ashishgandhi
> How many Americans can spot the difference between Hong Kong and Seoul, or
> know what "BKA" stands for?

That only means American culture is more exported than others in many forms
like movies, TV shows, etc. People like to watch American shows, American
that, American this, etc. If Honk Kong and Seoul were able to export their
culture as effectively you'll know about them too. A lot of people know about
Paris and Cannes in the US. Doesn't mean they are "well educated" or anything.
Nor the other way around.

~~~
pm90
In short, Hollywood. And that English is the lingua franca of the modern world

~~~
jbarham
Very true. Hollywood is overwhelmingly dominant in movies in the English
speaking world. Walking into a theatre here in Melbourne and it's like I'm
back in the US.

(Although I will say that Red Dog was a nicely done and uniquely Australian
movie.)

------
rdl
Living and traveling outside the US (Europe, Middle East, Asia) for ~15 years
convinced me of the inherent superiority of the US (culturally, economically,
etc.). Our government is broken, but generally the US lets problems get really
inefficiently bad, then overcorrects, so I hope that will happen in the next
20 years.

The threats to the US are not other countries getting better than us, but the
decline of the nation-state in general, or some global catastrophe which would
harm everyone.

(There are plenty of specific areas where other countries are better than the
US, but no single country which is enough better on enough things to be a
serious competitor.)

I was much more down on the US before leaving the country. Independent of
that, I would strongly suggest spending a few years living and working
overseas, not just traveling for a few weeks as a tourist.

(The UK/Canada don't really count if you're from the US, either, IMO.)

~~~
sneak
> There are plenty of specific areas where other countries are better than the
> US, but no single country which is enough better on enough things to be a
> serious competitor.

Germany. Better education, better attitude, more open-minded, less harassment
for being weird/nonstandard, median level of critical thinking ability,
healthier food, better transport, more cultural things to do/see, better
solutions to the growing underclass problem you described elsewhere.

There are tons of hacker-mindset people here (it's something in the water, I
swear), and while there are lots of annoying hoops to jump through in the
entrepreneurial arena, the general quality of life is vastly improved over the
US in almost every meaningful day-to-day way. Economically the differences
have already been done to death.

The US is coasting, and I believe it will implode financially within our
lifetimes.

~~~
rdl
I haven't lived in Germany (I've visited for maybe 3 weeks total), and in
terms of quality of life, it wasn't that different from the US, at least for
the things you see as a short-term tourist. Lots of stuff was more expensive
(vs. SF baseline), and rural Germany around 2000 was pretty undeveloped, but
Berlin would be more representative.

I'm also using SFBA, NY, Boston, Seattle as exemplars of the US. I'd rather
live in London than New Mexico, but there are parts of the UK worse than New
Mexico, too. (amazingly. I didn't know this until living in the UK.)

US universities are stronger than German universities, at least in
commercialization, graduate studies, etc. K-12 could go either way; Baltimore
public schools are worse than what I assume are the worst German schools, but
Palo Alto, Stuy, etc. might be better (at least I don't know of anything
comparable in Germany).

~~~
mc32
W/re UK. Chris Kipllip did a photo documentary called "In Flagrante". NE
England in the 80's (not sure about now) was a depressed place to be.

~~~
waterlesscloud
The movies of Andrea Arnold were revealing in a certain way. "Red Road" and
"Fish Tank", as well as her short film "Wasp". All set in the world of UK
council estates(like US housing projects). A poor underclass with many of the
same features as the poor underclass in the US.

Great films, worth watching.

You can see Wasp, which won an Oscar for best short film, here-
<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5aJjj8v3xVs>

Trailer for Fish Tank, featuring Michael Fassbender:
<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gg1yMOdjyp0>

------
inopinatus
It is most certainly the case that living away from one's source culture has a
profound effect on your perception of the world. It's important to note,
however, that none of what Mr Carson describes was caused by Britain and the
British specifically.

I can say that because I'm from there and I am one. And yet I can report much
the same: I moved overseas to unfamiliar shores, and the result has been an
enlightenment, a much clearer perspective on the parochial vs the universal.
To look back at one's origin with fresh eyes. It's refreshing and challenging
and will change anyone with a shred of self-analytical capability.

This became clearest to me when living in the Netherlands. There were two
identifiable Dutch social modes: either cliquish & insular, or open &
welcoming. The latter was strongly correlated to those Dutch who had
travelled. I'm not saying the former were unfriendly, it was a matter of
acceptance: I was simply always a guest.

I have observed this trait in many since, and in myself.

Note that I do not believe an overseas holiday is sufficient to achieve this.
You'll have to stay somewhere, become at least a little bit of a local. My
experience has been that six months is sufficient, two years is optimal.

------
citricsquid
> I stopped calling myself a Christian

Specific to this point as someone that has lived in England forever I find it
really strange how on the reddit atheism subreddit all the (American) posters
act as if they're persecuted for their Atheism whereas in England religion is
just something people do in private if they do it at all, it's hard for me to
understand the way r/atheism posters perceive their persecution, but reading
someone from America saying that how England is very different with religion
makes it easier to understand.

~~~
il
Religion seems to be much more pervasisve in public policy in America than
anywhere else. 40% of voters believe the Rapture/end of the world will occur
in their lifetime. This is unprecendented in any secular country, and it
affects all spheres of life. Why worry about global warming when Jesus is
going to come back and fix everything in a few years anyway?

~~~
biotech
> _40% of voters believe the Rapture/end of the world will occur in their
> lifetime. This is unprecendented in any secular country_

This is unprecedented because it's simply not true. The best statistic I could
find for this is 11%. Even 11% seems like a very high number based on my
personal experience. As an American who has lived in different parts of
America my whole life (and currently living in a high-tourist city with people
from all over the US), I can say that most people in most parts of the US do
not believe that the rapture will happen within their lifetime.

[http://www.publicpolicypolling.com/pdf/PPP_Release_US_0602.p...](http://www.publicpolicypolling.com/pdf/PPP_Release_US_0602.pdf)

~~~
il
Your personal experience living in a high-tourist city does not represent the
rural, Evangelical majority that actually votes. Here's one poll with the 41%
number: <http://pewresearch.org/databank/dailynumber/?NumberID=1043>

~~~
waterlesscloud
And here's another poll from the same organization, this one focused only on
Christians, that says 20% of them believe in the rapture in their lifetimes.

[http://www.pewforum.org/uploadedfiles/Topics/Issues/Politics...](http://www.pewforum.org/uploadedfiles/Topics/Issues/Politics_and_Elections/religion-
politics-06.pdf)

41% in no way jibes with my experience, even as someone who grew up attending
white rural evangelical churches. You might get 41% (or much higher) to say it
might occur, but I am seriously skeptical of "definitely" percentages.

The survey I linked has some interesting facts about American Christian
beliefs about science. Strong (79%+) majority believes global warming is a
serious problem, for example. Even a slim majority believes in evolution.

~~~
il
Yes, but my poll is from 2010 and yours is from 2006. Whether the actual
number is 40% or 20% or 11%, I'm sure it's much higher than other modern,
secular countries. That's all I'm saying.

In any case, that's not the scary poll. It's polls like this one that are
scary: [http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/03/12/interracial-
marriag...](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/03/12/interracial-marriage-
deep-south_n_1339827.html)

------
tzs
> When I moved to the UK, most people I met didn’t believe in God or
> Christianity. The UK is largely a non-Christian country.

No, you've went into a field whose practitioners are largely non-Christian,
and since you've probably acquired most of your social circle directly or
indirectly through that you mostly meet non-Christians.

If a kid who grew up in a religious family in London and went to a religious
school most of his life where almost all his social group was religious left
the UK after school and moved to Seattle to work for Google or Microsoft, he
could reasonably blog years later that the US is largely a non-Christian
country based on his experience.

~~~
petercooper
Broadly speaking, the UK is a Christian country in a cultural sense. I think
the confusion sets in because the British who identify as Christian are also
broadly _impious_ in relation to their more devoted American counterparts.

Even amongst Brits who would willingly tick "Church of England" on a census
form, it seems to be only a minority who attend church, perform religious
rituals, proselytize, or attempt to defend their faith.

I caught my wife ready to tick CofE on a form once and asked her if she
believed in God. She thought and said "Well, no. Not really." Yet, culturally,
she was brought up to just say she was CofE and a Christian because,
culturally, she lived that way without ever being pious or knowledgable about
the theology of it.

------
pawelwentpawel
_I moved to the UK, most people I met didn’t believe in God or Christianity.
The UK is largely a non-Christian country._

10$ note - "in god we trust". £10 note - Charles Darwin picture on it.

I guess it explains a lot.

I read a few comments about atheists being "ashamed" in states - I don't
really see that happening in europe. Even in the far eastern parts of it being
overly (and I probably have a bit of a different definition on this word)
religious is being nowadays quite often considered _weird_. Especially among
young people in bigger cities.

------
Alex3917
"A ton of people I met from around the World thought Americans were
overweight, materialistic and unintelligent. This was, of course, an unfair
generalization."

Less than 30% of American adults are at a healthy bodyweight, so it's really
not an unfair generalization.

~~~
michael_h
Based on BMI, yes? According to that, I believe Brad Pitt at his peak was
classified as 'obese'. There is a weight problem, but our tools for measuring
it are subpar.

~~~
Alex3917
Yes, based on BMI. I know BMI isn't always accurate for each individual, but
I'm assuming that it's more or less evens out on the population level.

------
sneak
#1 is the huge one. Americans say "the world" when they mean "the whole
country". For most USAians, it is pretty inconceivable that anyone lives
drastically differently than they do.

It's inexcusable, considering the breadth of information available to the
contrary, but most just never expose themselves to it. I know I didn't until I
moved away.

------
yaix
"""But after you settle in, both places are great."""

Found this in the comments. After having lived in different countries for the
last 15 years (originally from Germany), that has become my conclusion, not
only regarding the US and UK. It takes some time (years) to get really used to
a culture and understand its thinking.

------
davidb_
I feel like the majority of his "areas of impact" that living overseas has had
on him could have just as easily happened if he had stayed in America, but
moved to a city with some more diversity. It's more about growing up and
making friends with people that think differently than you than just
transplanting yourself.

~~~
aggronn
i was also disappointed by how certain he seemed to be about what caused those
changes to his character. All four of those points, in my mind, are
characteristic of someone growing up, not living abroad. I don't think his
opinions are at all unique to ex-pats.

------
mberning
Just wrapping up a several weeks trip to Europe (London, Cologne, Edinburgh)
as we speak. I think I'm having the opposite observation. Western cultures
have so much in common it has actually been surprising to me. I always
expected to be amazed by the differences, but if you throw out all of the
superficial stuff the set of appreciable differences is rather smaller.

As for his specific points

1\. I have no idea how somebody with half a brain and access to the internet
can have this notion. Maybe I am the exception to the rule, but I never
fancied my Country to be any more 'important' than any other nation. In fact,
the opposite was often considered given that modern civilisation has few roots
in the Americas.

2\. Never believed in religion in the first place

3\. Every country has their fair share of embarrassing points, and of course
their fair share of unfortunate embarrassing people. I have rather enjoyed
seeing that the human condition is more or less the same the world over. I
also feel occasionally embarrassed by my fellow countrymen, but I figure the
best way to counteract that is to represent myself, and by association my
country, the best I can.

4\. As for that, we will see. I've not seen anything that screams out to me
"This economy is vastly more productive than the US" in the areas that I have
visited. Perhaps public transport and some infrastuctural aspects lend
themselves to a more efficient country, and the US should certainly take a
look at those things.

Oh well, I'm glad to have had the experience of travelling throughout Europe,
but I would expect some deeper takeaways from somebody that literally spent
years immersed in a foreign culture.

~~~
antidaily
I wonder if more Americans would travel through Europe if they knew how easy
it is. EVERYBODY speaks English. And yet, you still get to experience the
cultures and augment your worldview a bit.

~~~
ralfn
Not really. You can talk in English with any dutch citizen, but without being
able to read our books, watch our tv, hear us talk, you dont really get a
clue.

What you get is a not a first hand view, but a 2nd hand view, from the worst
observer possibe.

Im pretty sure, that language is key to any culture. And because of that
Americans, even when they travel, will have less understanding of the culture,
than the natives have of the states, simply because we can actually read your
constitution, watch your daily show, know your founders and the culture that
shspes your idenity.

Want to learn about the world? Dont travel! Learn a language.

~~~
antidaily
I saw your TV. It was dubbed Simpsons and porn at night. It was great!

I don't think my mediocre-to-decent French helped me appreciate France any
more, but if you say so.

~~~
ralfn
But thats not what shapes our culture. To understand a country you have to see
how it handles its debates, how it reports its news.

Here's a reasonable question: were you able to notice the quality of the
poltical debate? Its nothing special within Europe, but the kind of nonsense
that passes for a polticsl debate in the states is quite a contrast.

------
tyler_ball
"...could’ve gotten a job at any tech company in the USA. I was offered
ridiculous salaries with signing bonuses of luxury cars. Pretty tempting."

Thank you!

* closes tab _

------
bane
A great way to see how outsiders view the U.S. is read the travel guides
written for them.

<http://wikitravel.org/en/United_States>

------
spiredigital
Last year, I spent seven months traveling the world and came back with a much
greater appreciation for the U.S. Does America have its issues like any other
country? Of course. And are there things as an American I would change?
Absolutely. But in spite of its flaws, it's still an incredible land of
innovation, personal opportunity and a (relatively) corruption free country.

It's certainly chic to hate on America these days, but I now tend to give much
less credence to those who do.

------
scott_meade
"it’s very hard to truly question your beliefs if everyone around you shares
them."

This gravitation toward a shared belief makes it not surprising that living
where most peoples' belief is that God does not exist would result in one
sharing that belief.

Thanks for the article. It's always great to see other perspectives on the
world.

------
jetsnoc
Upon graduating from High School I backpacked Europe for a month. I quickly
learned not everyone felt the same way about America that I did. The tone
wasn't hateful or angry (yes) but it was cautious as if people expected me to
be arrogant, rude or flippant about their world views. There was a common joke
between my friend and I: We should sport a Canadian flag on our backpack!

A few years later, I worked abroad for some time. Post "9/11" people were
cruel and bitter. They really despised us! This year though, everyone was
talking about Apple, Instagram and Facebook! I don't know if these are just
hot topics but people were excited to talk with an American about them. I was
glad to hear the tone had changed some.

------
intellegacy
To really understand America, you must not only live in it, but also live
outside it. Note: I am from the USA, and "we" or "our" refers to us Americans.

I spent 3 years abroad, recently returning to the USA this summer, and I will
try to outline some of what I learned, although it is somewhat difficult as
this knowledge has become ingrained in me and obvious as to seem to require no
explanation.

\- English as lingua franca

The average person doesn't realize how dominant English is as the world's
language, how that dominance is reflected by our leading industries, and how
the prevalence of English helps exports our culture, values, and by extension,
our products. For example, the majority of the latest scientific research is
written in English, regardless of the scientist's nationality. Every
programmer across the world learns a rudimentary English just by virtue of
being a programmer, as most programming languages are in English and the
majority of programming technical guides are in English. When travelers of
different nationalities meet in a 3rd country, they speak English. When
businessmen of different countries do business together, they speak English.
As native speakers we have a built-in advantage. But our potential weakness is
failing to understand different nationalities. Especially as the other
countries grow in power. I've heard, from the English-speaking Chinese in
China: "We understand your culture and speak your language. You, on the other
hand, don't understand ours at all. We have the advantage."

\- Dominance of American cultural media, internet, and education Hollywood
movies, American music artists and bands, tech companies, and higher education
all hold significant leads over whatever competitors foreign countries can
muster. Besides China, the rest of the world doesn't use their version of
Facebook, and none of them have the engineers to keep up. The majority of the
top 100 Universities in the world are in the USA. And most of the world
watches American music and movies. Its ironic: a commonly heard stereotype is
that Americans have little to no culture, when American popular culture is by
far the most dominant in the world and unmatched in its breadth, choice,
depth, and quality.

\- US Consumerism This is a little more complex, but you still can see this if
you look hard enough: the world economic system is built around US consumers.
Take a look at prices for electronics in Asia, for example. In the very places
where the electronics are made, the retail prices are all significantly higher
than those in the US. Samsung and LG TVs cost more in Korea than they do in
America. Computers cost more in China than they do in the USA. I frequently
found myself waiting until I returned to US soil before I made any big ticket
electronic or computer purchases, because the savings were ridiculous.

Once you look into the price disparity, you realize that other countries,
mainly the exporting ones in Asia, manipulate their currencies, and build
their economies on the back of US consumers. It's a potentially dangerous
cycle because our consumerism habit is encouraged and built-in to the system
via currencies and our addiction to credit, making it a hard habit to break.

\- the effectiveness of USA institutions: legal system, courts, law
enforcement, Congress, media, higher education Good governance and higher
civilization aren't created overnight, and are not easy to develop. If you
look at any 3rd world country, you notice immediately that the country often
borders on anarchy due to lack of effective political / governing structure.
Either the President is a brutal dictator, or the police are corrupt, or
military generals are the de facto leaders, or the legal system is weak and
the laws unenforced, and the list goes on and on. Effective government does
not arise from air. It is built on decades or centuries of experience and
stability. To maintain its effectiveness is a constant struggle against the
evils inherent in man: laziness, corruption, abuse of power, etc. and a fight
that seems to be slipping away from us in recent years.

The strong laws, governance, loyal military, and highly educated and
productive citizens of a country are what make countries like America, those
in Western Europe, and increasingly, some in East Asia good places to live.

Interestingly, even though reddit seems to hate cops, in my experience cops in
the USA are paragons of professionalism compared to those in developing
countries. It's hard to imagine, but cops there just don't take the profession
very seriously. The standards of law enforcement in developed countries are
another level entirely. And you can apply this "higher level" concept to the
other areas I outlined above: judges, courts, the military, businesses,
politicians.

If we let our vigilance slack, then the strong civilizing forces, whose bond
make a civilization great, will begin to weaken, and the country's excellence
will begin to regress.

Sorry, I took a tangent there.

\- differences in political systems and their effectiveness This is hard for
me to explain because I consider it as self-evident as 2+2=4, but I'll do my
best. It's clear to me, and many other people who have studied political
systems across the world, that democracy isn't a one-model-fits-all-countries
panacea. Democracies (if you could call them that) often fail where there is
no historical precedent or experience for it, and the populace is unfamiliar
with or uninterested in participating in the democratic process. Uneducated,
unengaged citizens are a recipe for democracy failure. Other factors that ruin
a democracy's effectiveness: corrupt leaders and lax enforcement. The leaders
just rig the elections and the enforcement just lets it all slide.

Another issue is public policy. Looking at what other countries have tried and
how it works in their countries is like drawing up a theoretical policy
experiment and then seeing the results before your eyes. The policy's results
won't ever match 1-1 with your native country if said policy was implemented
due to differences in culture and environment, but just seeing how others have
done things opens your mind to the possibilities and forces you to understand
a different perspective. The same applies to cultural values or mores. Often I
have found myself in Asia in wonder at some common practice or another that is
superior, in almost every way, to what we have in America. (And I've found the
opposite as well).

\- crumbling US infrastructure vs. the World's "Crumbling" is a bit of
hyperbole, but still, the first thing you notice when traveling is how new and
modern the rest of the world's airports are compared to those in the USA. New
York, America's supposed mecca of culture and a truly international city, has
airports whose decrepitness puts lesser cities to shame. Don't get me started
on the subways.

I would say that the USA has one of the best governing infrastructures, but
only average (and slipping fast) physical infrastructure. Oh, and US Broadband
speeds rank is #12. I'm particularly emotional about that one.

Overall, the US is still one of the best countries to live in the world for a
number of its strengths that are unmatched, and will not be surpassed for the
next several decades, if ever. But signs are showing that the civilizing
fabric which holds our country together is weakening: deadlocked political
process, income and wealth disparity at historical levels, the Great
Recession, and what some might lament as a decline in values and morals into a
disgusting morass of consumerism, selfish individualism, and celebrity
worship.

But it could be all part of the cycle, and the future is still bright. The
highly educated citizenry, and especially the youth(courtesy of all those
student loans!), are some of our greatest strengths.

Meanwhile, at the risk of sounding un-PC, the uneducated underclass is our
biggest weakness, although I'm unsure whether historically it is larger in
size relative to the population.

I'm not bearish on America... yet. There are too many good things going for
it. The energy, dynamism, ambition, and intelligence are all in absurdly high
concentrations in numerous US cities. The political system just needs a little
tweaking.

~~~
excuse-me
> the effectiveness of USA institutions: legal system, courts, law
> enforcement, Congress, media, higher education Good governance and higher
> civilization aren't created overnight

Couldn't you have just copied them from Britain and France - wouldn't that
have been easier ?

~~~
khuey
To a large extent we did. US law has its roots in British law, although the
two have diverged considerably since 1776.

------
TamDenholm
I really think seeing you're own culture from outside your own bubble provides
a massive wide angle lens that provides perspective and periphery that you
didn't previously have and if you have the opportunity to gain this insight
then you should try your best to gain it.

------
stevenwei
The one thing I keep noticing while traveling outside America is how few
Americans actually travel. I have encountered tons of Europeans/Australians
but don't really come across that many Americans.

------
robomartin
This is a tough topic with the potential for heated diametrically-opposed
opinions.

I too have had the experience of living a big chunk of my life outside the US,
about 18 years, between South America (mostly Argentina) and Europe. I've also
split my time in the US between east and west coast.

When abroad I have at times felt embarrassed to call myself an American. Well,
first of all, I hate the use of the term "American" because, well, we don't
own the entire continent. I feels utterly ignorant to say "I am an American".
In the UK at least you can say that you are a "Yank" and it is more accurate.
Anyhow, this might be a minor point. Just because it is convenient I'll
continue to use the ignorant reference and call myself an "American" in this
post.

Yes, Americans are fat and ignorant. At least that's a big part of what we
project. Some of it has to do with how egocentric we tend to be. I have met
Americans that have a hard time placing countries --much less cities-- on the
globe. You often hear things like "I can't spell" or "I am not good at math".
I can't recall ever hearing such expressions in other countries. If you can't
spell your own language or handle high-school level math you are actually
looked down upon in a lot of cultures. Just one step above an idiot. It really
sounds moronic from the vantage point of other cultures. So, be aware of this
fact. While it might seem funny to you to make a comment like that, the other
person could be thinking that you are a "burro".

I am the last person to propose that government get involved in directing
behavior through taxation and the like. I've posted before on the whole
healthcare law mess. However, there is one tax credit that I could probably
get behind in a serious way if it was implemented correctly: A tax incentive
to have Americans travel abroad with some frequency.

I truly believe that we would fix a LOT of problems both here and elsewhere if
the average US citizen had a more accurate world view. In Europe it is easy to
travel from culture to culture. It's just a train ride away and it can be
really cheap. Here in the US it is harder and far more costly. It is logical
that most would simply travel a few hundred miles away within our country than
get on a plane and see other shores. An intelligently-done tax credit to
promote foreign travel could do wonders in this area. We need people to travel
out of the country a few times (not just once) during their lifetime to gain
perspective and learn.

If the average American understood what the world looks like on the outside
and, perhaps more importantly, what the US looks like when looking-in, they
would behave differently and vote differently. We would be a different
country.

The topic of religion in the US is also a tough one. I, like most, grew up in
a religious environment and later rejected it. As an atheist now I can't help
but see some of what goes on with all religions as nothing less than lunacy. A
collectively accepted state of dementia. A tsunami kills hundreds of thousands
of people and the religious still can't logically look at the gaping holes in
their demented belief system. At one point you'd hope that someone would
rationalize that if their god truly listened to their prayers and helped their
football team win a game while allowing someone to get killed or raped across
town, or someone else half beaten to death at the stadium parking lot or
hundreds of thousands of of people die in an earthquake...well, something
ain't right.

Anyhow, the fact that American politics is so overly loaded with the need to
express devotion, dedication and history with one religion, Christianity, is
of great concern to those of us who can look at things from a different plane
of thought.

From outside our country this looks ignorant and, well, ridiculous.

There are so many consequences to having religion as a dominant force in
politics. Gay rights and scientific research are two examples that come to
mind. It is personally offensive to me --not gay-- to hear believers who
consider the gay to be unholy abominations (and worst). When you try to
explain that being gay is a genetic mutation (not a pejorative) that is no
different from having blue eyes they laugh at you. That's when the topic of
evolution often comes-up. It is personally offensive to me that they challenge
evolution as though anything they could offer is even remotely relevant to the
conversation. You try to explain that the mechanism for evolution is the very
reason that their kids don't look like perfect clones of each other, and they
come up with counter-reasons that one couldn't even imagine. And, when
religion mixes with politics you have things like the drive to teach
"creationism" to our kids. Again, from many distant shores this looks nothing
less than retarded. And they are right.

A lot of the above is very negative. Here's the good news: There is a TON that
is great about this country and this people. We, with all of our faults,
manage to have created a society that is orderly and, for the most part, law-
driven. Just ask an Argentinian about how their crazy governments and rampant
corruption at all levels has, effectively, destroyed what used to be a very
nice country. In the US we disagree. And, yes, polarization is horrible right
now, but we somehow manage to run things reasonably well.

There's also a lot of creativity in this land. There are cultures that have
huge issues with this. Both Europe and Asia have examples of this effect. A
lot of the behaviors and culture that the US promotes internally lead to
finding diamonds in the rough and allowing them to shine through.

Yes, here you can be nobody and rise to be anything and anyone you can dream
of becoming. And that's why the US has led the world in a technical and, yes,
cultural revolution that has had no equal. I am proud of being an American,
warts and all. I strive to be above average and make sure that my kids develop
a world view and cross cultural view from the get go. I also respect other
cultures and understand that nearly everyone who is positive in the world has
something valuable to offer. I could go on, but that's probably enough of a
brain dump on this topic.

~~~
jules
As I see it from the outside, USA's greatest strength it its culture of
ambition: the belief that an individual can achieve great things through good
ideas, skills, and hard work. Whereas in Europe Gates or Jobs might have
finished college and become a cog in the system, in the USA they dropped out
and had a huge impact.

FYI, homosexuality is not genetic. Although genes play a large role, they are
generally thought to explain the variance in sexual orientation for less than
50%.

~~~
robomartin
I stand corrected. At least the play a large role. It certainly isn't an
abomination as the religious like to see them. It's the year 2012 and we still
show respect for this kind of thinking rather than laughing them out of the
room.

~~~
jules
Certainly. Personally I do not like the "it's not bad because it's not a
choice" argument, although pragmatically that argument seems to be most
effective. It can be interpreted like "it's still evil, but they can't help it
so we'll let them". Even if it were a choice, it would still be OK; what
matters is that it doesn't harm anybody, and it certainly doesn't harm
somebody who's condemning it from afar. Fortunately things are moving in the
right direction, especially in the US, but cultural changes take a long time.

------
mkramlich
I've come to the same set of realizations and conclusions, but have never left
the country. And I too am from Colorado. So I think it's the thought process
that counts, the education, critical thinking, absorbing lots of information,
etc. Not whether you've travelled enough or lived outside the US. I do agree
that many Americans live inside a kind of bubble, one built out of a mixture
of propaganda and intellectual laziness, perhaps, but a perceptual bubble all
the same. The Republican party, for example, I think to a large extent helps
to feed it and is in turn fed from it. But we don't really live in the world
portrayed in that bubble. And it's going to increasingly bite Americans in the
ass unless they wake up and make changes.

------
yashchandra
Every country has its good and bad, in terms of people, culture, society,
taboos etc etc. I have lived in 3 countries including the US and I think that
it all comes down to how you look at things that are around you. The best
thing to do is to try and enjoy the best of it.

------
melonakos
The jist of this article: "Hey, look at me! I'm cool because I am not
patriotic, nor do I respect several of the rockbeds of American culture. I'm
multinational."

As real Americans would say, "Whoop-de-doo!"

~~~
melonakos
How is it possible to have negative points?

