
The Siberian crater phenomenon is more widespread than previously thought - samclemens
http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2015/02/26/the-siberian-crater-problem-is-more-widespread-and-scarier-than-anyone-thought/
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gmuslera
The scariest part of the slow trend of global warming is that maybe big
positive feedback mechanisms could be literally hidden under our feets, pretty
much ignored till now. Things could go wrong very fast, in ways that not even
experts could had predicted.

~~~
jobu
What I'm curious about is the mechanisms that might counteract global warming.
The earth has cycled in the past between hot and cold periods, so there are
obviously natural mechanisms that cause it to reverse as well.

Could we harness these mechanisms to keep the earth compatible with human
habitation?

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dflock
I think that this mechanism is mostly CO2 being slowly weathered out of the
atmosphere and disposed of, mostly via limestone formation. This takes a
_very_ long time and is very slow, so it can only catch up if you stop pumping
it out.

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agapos
The colder oceans are notable natural CO2 absorbents, plus we have to mention
the effects of life itself: photo-synthesizing plants and unicellular
creatures. Like the historical ones that fixated enough carbon to create
today's wast coal, oil and methane fields.

As I recall, there is a group of creatures that may did the first big wave of
carbon fixation at the beginning of life, binding CO2 and releasing the
important O2 that enabled the appearance of complex life forms, but I can't
remember it's name.

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dflock
Algae, or Green/blue Algae, more specifically.

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davesque
Yep, pretty scary. Even scarier, if oceanic methane clathrates are
destabilized, we're pretty much fucked i.e. kiss your hopes for controlling
global warming goodbye:

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methane_clathrate](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methane_clathrate)

~~~
mark-r
Thanks for the link, it taught me something. I wonder if that's how Styx did
that album cover long before Photoshop was invented?
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equinox_(Styx_album)](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equinox_\(Styx_album\))

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keslag
I just gave some guy shit this morning for playing the old man card, but you
do realize we had special effects before photoshop, right? A lot of what you
can do in photoshop is actually the digital translation of the analogue
process. Photoshop didn't make this possible, it just made it easier and
faster.

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Apofis
The article that this article is about is a lot more informative and has a lot
more photos.

[http://siberiantimes.com/science/casestudy/news/n0127-dozens...](http://siberiantimes.com/science/casestudy/news/n0127-dozens-
of-mysterious-new-craters-suspected-in-northern-russia/)

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Mithaldu
Short version: "Siberia is warming. Permafrost thaws and spews methane, and
blasts out a burst of highly flammable gas."

The consequences of that can include: Russia's economy being broken due to a
main export literally vanishing into thin air. And worse: Green house gases
getting into the atmosphere in vast amounts.

~~~
gus_massa
> _The consequences of that can include: Russia 's economy being broken due to
> a main export literally vanishing into thin air._

As far as I know, the methane from the permafrost is not commercially
exploited. It's left there frozen, so this doesn't affect the Russian economy
unless one of this "explosions" hits a building.

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agapos
The currently mined gas deposits in Siberia are at least 600 meters below the
ground level, normally deeper (generally at 1-2 km). The thickness of
permafrost in most areas is a few ten meters, with the more cold areas
reaching 300-450 meters, so there little to no overlap between the two.

This PDF contains a few numbers for those interested:
[http://www.arlis.org/docs/vol1/ICOP/40770716/CD-
ROM/Proceedi...](http://www.arlis.org/docs/vol1/ICOP/40770716/CD-
ROM/Proceedings/PDF001189/151104.pdf)

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arjn
So is it old, buried organic (flora,fauna) matter thats causing the methane ?

I'm wondering a couple of things :

1) Is there any way arial or satellite imaging can help predict where these
methane bubbles in the permafrost will occur ?

2) Could this be tapped as a resource ?

P.S , is anyone else reminded of the "Spice blooms" from Dune ?

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acomjean
Landfills in the US are now esentially very large plastic bags. The problem is
when the trash decays it produces methane (and other gasses), and having
flamable gas in an many acre bag is bad.. So there are vents and the methane
is captured. This is captured and piped to burn off. There are claims of
generating power but the amount I've seen is not significant.

~~~
g8oz
Landfill gas generation is quite significant. In the U.S alone as of 2013, 621
LFG projects were operational producing 1,978 MW. Another 850 MW worth of
projects are candidates.

See
[http://www.epa.gov/lmop/documents/pdfs/overview.pdf](http://www.epa.gov/lmop/documents/pdfs/overview.pdf)

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cwal37
If anyone is interested in learning more about permafrost methane, and a bit
about clathrates as well, this paper[1] is a pretty good primer. I worked with
the lead author over a summer around when he was publishing this a few years
back. It's possible I can answer your questions, although I won't guarantee
it. Clathrates/hydrates are a personal favorite of mine, even wrote up a short
research paper in grad school on the possibility for their economic
extraction.

[1][http://www.climateemergencyinstitute.com/uploads/L_Livermore...](http://www.climateemergencyinstitute.com/uploads/L_Livermore_lab_MH_article_2012.pdf)

EDIT: The URL is a bit hyperbolic, but the paper is legit, it's just the first
host for this paper I found.

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Figs
Are there any reports of this phenomenon occurring in Alaska and Canada?

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Shivetya
considering how watched they are I doubt it, it could be likely to
destabilization brought on by developing the area for natural gas usage.
Perhaps they are causing fractures as other fuels taken out.

As for global warming or what not, its not like it wasn't warmer within
periods of well documented history and we survived that just fine. It is more
likely one volcano will do more than we think we do.

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ChuckMcM
Interesting phenomena. Presumably this happens every time the average
temperature rises above the melting point of the water and clathrates. Given
that Methane is a pretty powerful greenhouse gas, it makes me curious what the
mechanism is that converts a 'warm' earth into a 'frozen' earth.I think
understanding that would help us understand what to expect as the temperature
increases.

~~~
jkot
Methane is unstable in oxygen atmosphere. Ice ages are caused by earth orbit
and rotation axis orientation changes.

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Gravityloss
I guess people might be left with an incomplete image from that comment. The
positive CO2 feedback loop amplifies ice ages a lot.

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appleflaxen
I find this process indescribably scary. It's understandable that the public
is clueless, but can someone explain to me why the technologists aren't
worried? Positive feedback would put us so far past the point of no return
that earth will be unrecognizable.

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gd1
Probably the fact that no positive feedbacks or 'tipping points' happened
during the Holocene Climate Optimum, so it's fairly easy to figure out that
this is your usual alarmist nonsense.

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VieElm
Seems to be evidence that the earth hasn't been this warm in a very long time
or these pockets of gas wouldn't possibly even exist now.

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cjensen
It was warmer 8000 years ago due to orbital effects. [1]

[1]
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocene_climatic_optimum](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocene_climatic_optimum)

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jackgavigan
Am I the only one who feels that it is inappropriate to describe a saga as
"more widespread" or as having "deepened"?

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dang
s/saga/phenomenon/ just for you.

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nsomaru
Why are they calling this a crater when their theories don't include impact
from space?

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codewithcheese
Seems like a legitimate question. Why should it be downvoted.

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refurb
Because folks here don't like to hear non-PC opinions?

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nl
Genuinely curious: what possible non-PC answer is there? (Ignoring that the OP
didn't realise craters could be caused by many things)

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refurb
I'm guessing the OP got downvoted because his theory had nothing to do with
climate change?

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mikeash
I'm pretty sure OP got downvoted because he asked a question he could have
easily answered himself by looking up the definition of the word in question.

