
VW opens preorders for the ID.3, its first long-range electric car - mswift42
https://www.theverge.com/2019/5/8/18536668/vw-volkswagen-id-3-preorders-oelectric-car-long-range-ev
======
bdamm
After the terrible treatment I received as a Volkswagen TDI customer, I will
never buy another VW. Period. They fraudulently sold me a car, then managed to
finangle their way out of any financial restitution by putting up not only
extensive hurdles for customers who wanted to opt for restitution instead of
return, they then penalized customers who experienced delays due to their
internal system faults by simply rejecting applications for restitution that
were even a little bit out of spec.

Never. Again.

~~~
razster
Owned a 2001 Jetta. The number of parts I had to replace became more than the
cars worth. I will never own a VW anything because of the terrible
reliability.

~~~
milkytron
When did these issues start happening?

I own a 2009 rabbit and have no faced any issues beyond routine maintenance.
Guess I should knock on wood.

~~~
jvagner
I've owned many VWs and Audis, and the 2008 Jetta I bought (albeit with a
manual transmission) is still going strong. Not a single service issue, to
date. It must have almost 200K miles.

~~~
westmeal
Any tips on how to heel toe in this gen jetta? The pedals are so awkwardly
placed...

~~~
jvagner
Tough... I agree with pedal placement. I was probably more prone to
occasionally stalling in intersections, but then I took the car to SF and
drove there and got the feel dialed-in real quick.

I've since bought newer cars and gave this one to a relative. It's still on
the original clutch/transmission, so I guess I didn't do too bad.

------
mft_
Interesting (and great that the bigger manufacturers are starting to come
through with their electric offerings) but the price:range ratio doesn't seem
great compared to the Tesla model 3?

It's hard to be objective with all of the strongly pro- and anti-Tesla
nonsense flying around, but I've had a sneaking suspicion for a while that
once the market matures a little (with eg Audi, VW, Porsche all offering their
first-gen EVs) Tesla's offerings will be seen as more revolutionary (or at
least, taken less for granted) than they currently are...

~~~
nickbarnwell
The least expensive Model 3 in Germany is 57.900 EUR with 540km (wltp cycle)
of range – part of this is that they've only been exporting the high margin
long-range AWD models. The more expensive "First Edition" id.3 will have
approx 425km of range for 35.000 > x < 40.000EUR. Even taking the top end of
that range, it seems the $:km ratio is in favour of the VW. If the First
Edition battery is equal in size to the yet-to-be-released 58kWh battery, it
seems the efficiency is at least comparable to the M3 as well.

Plus, you probably get a better interior. Certainly a better built one…

~~~
adamvalve
If the interior is anything like my Tiguan... I would greatly prefer my Model
3 any day. I don't _think_ the ID3 is going to come with a premium interior...
haven't seen any photos of it so I could be wrong.

~~~
ilikehurdles
I might be mistaken, but it's a 20k euro price difference isn't it? I'd hope
the Model 3 has at least a nicer interior to justify the cost.

~~~
vinay427
You may have missed the context in the comment they replied to. I don't
believe anything in the comment you replied to contradicts what you said.

> Plus, you probably get a better interior. Certainly a better built one…

------
electriclove
This is great news and now we need them to deliver (and not delay/back out). I
hope they sell a ton. We really need an entrenched player to fully commit to
selling EVs. If VW goes all-in, everyone else will have to follow suit. Tesla
needs to keep the pressure on.

~~~
chaostheory
> We really need an entrenched player to fully commit to selling EVs.

I don't feel that this is a problem because of California laws regarding EVs,
forcing every manufacturer to sell more EVs every year.

~~~
modzu
well those mandates aren't doing much:

[https://i2i.org/california-ev-mandates-fail/](https://i2i.org/california-ev-
mandates-fail/)

i agree the comptetion between established players is required and hopefully
leads to solutions to the main problem keeping many people in ICE over EV:
range

~~~
chaostheory
That's a bit disingenuous. Without those mandates there would be a lot less
auto manufacturers with EV models. CA has jump started the EV industry with
those mandates. Could there be more EV owners? Sure, but this is still a huge
improvement.

~~~
modzu
are you claiming Volkswagen is in the ev game because of california?

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kvakvs
What game industry and preorders have taught us — never do any preorders until
the real thing is out and first reviews start coming in.

~~~
mikestew
The only regret with pre-ordering a Nissan Leaf before release was that the
company Nissan hired to run the pre-orders fucked it up. People who ordered up
to six months after we did got their cars months before we did.

But when we were finally given a hard date, it showed up on that date, and
we've been happy with it since. The only reason I don't jump in line for the
ID is because my wife and I are _really_ hoping they build that concept van to
replace the '81 VW Westfalia we've got now. They announce that for pre-order,
and it's "shut and take my money" time.

~~~
Tcepsa
If this[0] is what you're talking about, my wife and I also really want it to
be a thing! (EDIT: If it's _not_ , would you mind posting a link?)

[0]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_I.D._Buzz](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_I.D._Buzz)

~~~
mikestew
That's the one. Pretty much decided we've purchased our last ICE, and the '05
Scion xB DogMobile wouldn't hurt to be replaced by 2022.

------
gtirloni
I'm completely clueless about electric engines so I was wondering if, besides
range, there are other attributes one should look for in an electric car like
HP and that kind of stuff? In other words, are all electric motors so similar
that range is the only differentiator?

~~~
Shivetya
Range Battery Cooling technology, steer clear of air cooled Charging rates
Weight Cd

From my view weight is the big limiting factor in EV efficiency at lower
speeds and Cd becomes more important as you increase your speed to highway
numbers and higher.

Engines are important as the company Munro pointed out during their tear
downs. They stated that Tesla had by far the most impressive EV motor they
have seen based around how they implemented the magnets and their inverter
work finally coupled to a battery solution that proved naysayers wrong.

That out of the way, I would not fret over motor differences. It all comes
down to, if it passes the initial three features I listed about then concern
yourself with, do you like how it looks, how it drives, and does it fit in
your lifestyle. In no shape or form think you will save money parting with
your current vehicle for a new one however if you already were decided to
change cars and EV may fit your lifestyle.

There is a good possibility many EVs will be rear drive which will greatly
improve driving dynamics, the ease of packaging opens up many options

~~~
konschubert
The interesting thing is that these motors are not made by Tesla.

~~~
konschubert
Ps: What I was referring to is this:
[https://www.thedrive.com/tech/27790/toyota-gears-up-to-
becom...](https://www.thedrive.com/tech/27790/toyota-gears-up-to-become-
global-ev-systems-supplier)

------
Tepix
I like that electric cars are starting to have smaller hoods. With the battery
located at the bottom of the car and the electric motors at or in the wheels,
there is no need for a long hood.

Just switching to electric will not solve our mobility problems. Cars need to
get smaller and lighter and we need fewer of them, not more.

I'm looking forward to what's on the horizon in the european L7e category (up
to 450kg w/out battery), for example the Microlino. DLR is also doing some
interesting research in this area with their NGC Safe Light Regional Vehicle
(SLRV). They recently did some crash tests with promising results:
[https://www.dlr.de/dlr/desktopdefault.aspx/tabid-10122/333_r...](https://www.dlr.de/dlr/desktopdefault.aspx/tabid-10122/333_read-29340/#/gallery/31720)

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ed312
Is there a reason to start this new model name vs simply calling it the 2020
"eGolf"? Is the eGolf basically a hack design and the ID3 a true, ground-up
electric design?

~~~
zaphirplane
Or VW is trying to get some association with Tesla model _3_

Wow how very uncreative, I would be too embarrassed by such blatant copying

model => Id 3 => 3

New name ID3

~~~
capitalisthakr
_cough_ BMW i3

~~~
skgoa
And Audi A3, BMW 3 series etc.

~~~
zaphirplane
The word model has similarity to the word ID

I’m not saying the number 3 is owned by tesla

------
phjordon
I hope this platform succeeds. I've been following the planned microbus
refresh eagerly, and it supposedly will be built on the same.

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edent
> buyers will get up to 2,000kWh of charging for free during the first year.

That's about £250 worth of electricity - if you charge solely at home. From
fast chargers, that's about £750 - £1,000.

Not a bad incentive if you do lots of long journeys and _need_ to charge at a
motorway service station. But perhaps not as generous as it sounds for more
typical use.

~~~
officeplant
Seeing as how that would ring up to around $160 here it makes me wonder how
much cost different going EV would be for me personally. Unfortunately fuel is
also cheap here at $2.28/gal on average the last month or two and I average
around 37 to 46mpg in a non-hybrid turbo car.

~~~
mikestew
At $0.10/kWh, my napkin says EV is still around half the cost of gasoline per
mile.

------
pxtail
Maybe details are not visible but overall body shape can be figured out and...
unless it's full placeholder then for me it's completely disappointing. I'm
aware that design was decided, created, analyzed and discussed by teams of
highly competent people but for some reason it's against my "common sense".
Tesla and this ID.3 are in similar price range [1] and Tesla just looks way
better, customers who are buying EV are not traditionalists and I'm pretty
sure that modern look is something as important as modern vehicle features.
ID.3 aesthetics are just like old boring ICE cars (same thing can be said
about audi etron)

[1]
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19870034](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19870034)

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jillesvangurp
I've seen a few e-golf's charging on the streets in the past few weeks in
Berlin. I assume these are pre-production models. Looks like a normal Golf
aside from the charging port.

From my understanding, this is a big step for VW. However, short term, they
will likely have range and production capacity issues, just like Tesla did not
exactly hit the ground running. I would not be surprised if this is merely a
stop gap solution until they get cheaper/better models out. Short term, Tesla
could really make VW hurt by ramping up production and dropping price and
competing with both their ICE and non ICE offerings.

~~~
jdietrich
_> Short term, Tesla could really make VW hurt by ramping up production and
dropping price and competing with both their ICE and non ICE offerings. _

That's a very big _could_. Tesla have an advantage in terms of battery
availability, but they simply don't have the expertise and the experience to
build cars at real scale. Tesla are literally building cars as fast as they
can, but they've still got a multi-year backlog of orders. Their defect rate
is the worst in the industry by some margin and they have a huge amount of
catching up to do.

[https://www.businessinsider.com/tesla-hit-model-3-target-
by-...](https://www.businessinsider.com/tesla-hit-model-3-target-by-reworking-
thousands-of-cars-2018-8)

VW have been planning this for years, they have decades of experience in auto
manufacturing, they have a proven record of quality and efficiency, and they
can scale up very quickly. _If_ they can get a reliable supply of batteries,
they aren't bottlenecked by production capacity in any meaningful way. The
real challenge for VW is almost certainly marketing - they have a very large
dealer base that needs to be retrained in how to sell EVs and they don't have
the viral cachet of Tesla.

~~~
bdamm
VW also has years of fooling themselves by prioritorizing the diesel
technology over electric development and running an enormous fraud in the
process. This will have held them back. I don't think VW can ramp up as fast
as they will want.

~~~
threeseed
Musk goes around calling people pedophiles and is high on Ambien half the
time.

Does that mean we should discount Tesla'a manufacturing ability as well ? Or
maybe this like the diesel issue has nothing to do with manufacturing.

~~~
bdamm
The point is that by running the fraud they reduced their own ability to
actually develop the necessary technology for the future market. The fraud
affected their own prioritization decisions, and teams were assigned to
continue diesel development based on a lie they were telling themselves, which
is that diesel is great and could be economically made to comply with tighter
emissions requirements. Development of electric was underfunded and late, and
now they are rushing to catch up.

Maybe they'll get it. But they stacked the deck against themselves, and I
wager they haven't worked out the kinks in their suppliers.

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tomphoolery
Are they really naming it after the MP3 tag format?

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tibbydudeza
Way too expensive for mass market appeal.

The basic Golf costs about 17,000 while the ID.3 starts at 30,000 Euro's.

------
mises
[

~~~
jcfrei
With the newer 350kW charging stations you can charge up to 80% in about 15
minutes (ie. for a Model S battery). So not much more than filling up with
gas. Granted cars which support this will be available at the earliest next
year.

~~~
tzs
I think you are underestimating just how much energy is in a gallon of gas.

In terms of miles per hour of charging or adding gas, gas is still massively
faster. Tesla says the new charging stations are 1000 miles per hour.

A gasoline car that gets 25 miles/gallon, at a gas station with pumps that go
at 10 gallons per minutes, "charges" at 15000 miles per hour. (10 gallons per
minute is the maximum allowed in the US due to EPA rules).

A lot of real world pumps don't achieve that maximum, but usually achieve at
least at least 1/3 of that, which would be 5000 miles per hour, still 5 times
faster than the upcoming faster Tesla charging option.

One advantage for the EV, though, is that it might be safer to step away from
the vehicle while charging? When filling up at a gas station I want to stay
with the car because a gas spill can be dangerous. That means any trips to the
station's convenience store or bathroom cannot be overlapped with fueling.

I'm guessing that there isn't much that can go dangerously wrong if you step
away from a charging EV, and so you can overlap your convenience store and
bathroom visits with the charging time. That might be enough to make the total
stop time comparable or less for the EV in many cases, even though the actual
charging is 5 to 15 times slower on the EV.

~~~
new_realist
The 1000 miles per hour figure is burst, not sustained. As the battery fills
up the charge rate will slow.

There is a fire risk to charging, but there's nothing you can do about it, so
it's better to exit your car.

~~~
davidgould
There is very little evidence for “fire risk to charging”. Anecdotally most
people at Superchargers sit in their car. The charge rate does slow as the
battery gets full. But it’s rarely necessary to charge fully. The optimal plan
is to arrive at the Supercharger almost empty and charge only enough to get to
the next one. That way most charging is at higher rates.

------
mtgx
Why does it still look like a concept car?

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anticensor
Time to nationalise by the Council of European Union and rename it into
_Bundeswagen_ , because it is no more an automobile for _folks_.

------
jaytaylor
Based on th emissions scandal, I'm unlikely to ever consider a VW vehicle,
period. Even though most of the auto industry is also full of dirty money
grubbing scum.

Not sure what the best move is, until giving it more thought I'm avoiding
purchasing another vehicle.

~~~
blattimwind
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defeat_device#Timeline](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defeat_device#Timeline)

Good luck finding a car manufacturer that can deliver and isn't on that list.

~~~
mikeash
Is Tesla too obvious to consider?

~~~
freehunter
No, just somewhat irrelevant. The defeat device was installed on ICE engines
to meet emissions and economy standards, standards which don't apply to
electric cars. Since Telsa doesn't make any ICE cars, it's as easy to compare
a bicycle to Volkswagen versus a Tesla. They're just in completely different
conversations when it comes to emissions cheating, since they don't have any
regulated emissions.

~~~
mikeash
The statement was “Good luck finding a car manufacturer....” Tesla is a car
manufacturer. Seems pretty relevant to me.

------
mfatica
Christ they couldn't come up with a better image than that?? Is that really
what the thing looks like?

~~~
cesarb
For some reason, automakers seem to like to cover their under-development
vehicles in garish camouflage. Like this one from 2016:
[https://electrek.co/2016/07/27/daimler-etruck-first-all-
elec...](https://electrek.co/2016/07/27/daimler-etruck-first-all-electric-
truck-125-miles-range/)

~~~
sk0g
Isn't the reason obvious? They don't want to give you a good look at the car
just yet, and would much rather make your eyes bleed till proper PR shots are
done and dusted.

Plus it looks cool as, when you spot the most jarring car on the road!

------
localhoat
As a German - this is really embarrassing. Old managers, old technology, old
dealer infrastructure - painted in freaking childish colors. Really guys?
That’s the best we can do...?

~~~
B1FF_PSUVM
> As a German - this is really embarrassing.

What's really embarrassing is that German authorities and engineering bodies
did not nail to the wall the VW execs that pushed the 'Dieselgate' fraud.

The reputation of German engineering was worth billions - those crooks took
some millions to the bank uncontested, and now "cheats and liars" is the word.

Good going.

~~~
skgoa
> What's really embarrassing is that German authorities and engineering bodies
> did not nail to the wall the VW execs that pushed the 'Dieselgate' fraud.

They literally investigated and brought criminal charges. Those people are
likely to get punished to the full extend of the law, which in a lot of those
cases will mean prison time. What more do you want? Death penalty without a
court case?

------
kaicianflone
I don't know how we're trusting a company that lied about emissions to create
the next generation of electric cars. After the TDI and TSI scandals, I know
many people who hope this brand does not survive.

I will never buy a VW, Porsche, or Audi if my life depended on it.

~~~
rcMgD2BwE72F
What brand do you recommend then, one that does not deceive or lie about their
cars' emissions?

~~~
kaicianflone
The TSI scandal is not over emissions. They put bad parts in cars and the
engines were failing before or near 100,000 miles.

