
God's Lonely Programmer - eli
http://motherboard.vice.com/read/gods-lonely-programmer
======
noname123
Although the guy lives arguably outside the fringe of society, I cannot
question his commitment to his project.

We tend to celebrate the successes like Elon Musk and Mark Zuckerburg and then
quietly go back to our daily lives, and compromise our creativity for family,
wealth accumulation and professional advancement. The opinionated amongst us
will debate which of their favorite value is the "right way," (If LoseTheOs
got the help and settled down with his family, a partner or friends; If
LoseTheOs found a job at Red Hat and channeled his energy towards Linux Kernel
development...).

But choices and our commitment to these choices are what defines us. TempleOS
in this regard, seems more like a work of art in the medium of code. Of
course, the merit of that art is up to the beholder (and tbh, I don't think
I'd have appreciated Van Gogh a priori.) "The difference between genius and
insanity is measured only by success," but is the guy who doesn't succeed by
conventional sense but finds his own meaning and keeps going, insane?

------
fuligo
I wonder if he would get this much positive attention if he wasn't a Christian
extremist. Would the article have conveniently left out his racism if he was,
say, a militant antisemite instead of being focused on black people as he is?
Would people admire his worship of a random number generator if he used it to
spit out slogans of a religious text that isn't as revered as the Bible?

While his schizophrenia probably comes with very bad episodes, there is
absolutely nothing that can be found in his own words allowing for the
conclusion that this view is just a tourette-like symptom. On the contrary.
His violence-laden hate speech is one of the constant factors defining him.
Contrary to what has been suggested here he doesn't use slurs randomly and
generically, either. There's a story behind his views that is just as coherent
as the cute "god's own programmer" schtick.

Where his illness clearly manifests is the interpretation of random events all
having a specific meaning. The radio talking to him, all the events in his
life being _just so_ that an invisible power is communicating with him, all
the way down to _literally_ a random number generator whose nature he cannot
grasp. That's schizophrenia. If there was an adequate cure or means of
suppressing it, this world view would completely go away.

It's more complicated to separate the man from the illness when it comes to
pretty much anything else. At the very least I would be extremely hesitant to
call him, as people do in this thread, an "inspiration". I'm not even sure
it's safe to be in the same room with him.

Closing with a quote straight from his most recent account:

    
    
      "I spend my days clubbing retard-n$ggers. CLUB! CLUB! 
       DIE N$GGER! CLUB! RETARD! N$GGER! DIE!! CLUB! N$GGER!*"
    

HN's majority opinion of this guy makes me more uncomfortable than his
comments by themselves. I don't get how we can label this guy as being "high
functioning" and at the same time sweep 99% of everything he ever says under
the rug. It's either or.

~~~
anigbrowl
He's 'high functioning' in the sense that he can produce elaborate computer
software that runs fast, in other words he has impressive engineering skills.
Socially he's pretty incapable. I think his offensive racist, homophobic and
other offensive remarks are part and parcel of his condition because I've
spent quite a lot of time reading his rants, and disagree with your claim that
his use of slurs is not random and generic. It's not uncommon for him to claim
that 'bill gAtes is an atheist nigger' and talk about hod God likes 'African
musical rhythms and does not like white people so much' on the same day.

Yes, he does seem to use the epithet 'nigger' more than all other epithets
combined, which is understandably alienating for many people. But I don't
think this is ideologically rooted because it is so randomly and
inconsistently applied in his writing (where it makes up a small fraction of
the overall output, rather than the 99% you suggest).

Being an atheist, his output of random passages from the Bible is neither
admirable nor otherwise to me - it's just statistically the most likely
religious text for an American with a religious fixation to be fixated on.
I've met mentally ill Asian Buddhists whose cognitive patterns are quite
similar to Terry's even though the cultural referents are completely
different. Extreme religiosity is very strongly correlated with some kinds of
mental illness and I don't find it strange that Terry is fixated on Old
Testament Bible stories where God puts in a lot of personal appearances. I
could just as easily imagine him being obsessed with the Koran or some other
religious text that's ubiquitous in some other part of the world.

I can't agree that he's an extremist - his (inoffensive) 'Guidelines for
talking to God' [1]are pretty bland and heretodox as he eschews questions of
salvation, morality etc., in favor of keeping God company (which makes sense
since God is apparently a fixture in Terry's life). According to Terry, God
dislikes classical music, Shakespeare, French people, and Terry's drumming
while exhibiting an inordinate fondness for elephants, bears, and 1960s pop
singers. You could work these elements into some sort of coherent ideological
position just as you could characterize his relentless automated Biblical
quotation as Christian extremism, but I don't think either position makes
sense.

What's remarkable about him is not the endless stream of nonsense, much of
which is offensive when it's even coherent; it's the fact that he manages to
construct working things as part of his intellectual pursuits and carry on
some kind of social life despite his mental circumstances.

1\.
[http://www.templeos.org/Wb/Adam/God/HSNotes.html#l1](http://www.templeos.org/Wb/Adam/God/HSNotes.html#l1)

~~~
fuligo
It's hard to disagree with that. However, being offensive (in the way that
word is most commonly used) is not even my point. I also never expressed
doubts about his engineering prowess. People can have significant mental
impairments and still perform math or engineering tasks, though the output of
these tasks is often colored by their limitations as well. He is the same way.
Imagine the things he could accomplish if he wasn't in schizophrenic mode!

My point was about whether he is an "inspiration" or not. Mentally ill people
can be assholes, too. It's debatable and probably an unsolvable question to
which extent his badness comes from his disease, so all we're left with at
this point is to simply judge him by his behavior, and maybe charitably take
some factors into account in his favor. But even after doing that, I can't get
to a state where I can say: " _this person is awesome and a continuing
inspiration to me_ ".

The nature of mental illness makes it very hard to talk about the core
personality of affected people. Their illness is a part of them, just as all
of our little hangups and traumata are a part of every one of us. These
properties _are_ us in a very real sense.

On a multidimensional scale of personalities, I do judge him way more harshly
than a person with Tourette's syndrome, precisely because there _is_ meaning
behind the words when he speaks them - even after I make a conscious effort to
discard the instances where that meaning was distorted, there is still enough
content left that I'm uncomfortable with subscribing to this person.

Ultimately I'd like to reiterate: my frustration is not with him. With this
illness, he got a bad deal in life. I hope he stays safe and gets all the care
he needs. I hope he can continue to find creative outlets like his operating
system. My frustration is with people idolizing him in his entirety, accepting
or maybe even sharing his views. I do think it's possible to admire the work a
person does without subscribing to their views, but when doing so you have to
work extra hard to separate the two. You can't just admire that person without
reservations. Frequently, on this thread and elsewhere, no reservations were
even visible. We even got people talking about how he was factually right
about calling black people dumb.

~~~
anigbrowl
Thanks for articulating that. Id o admire terry because I'm rather amazed by
TempleOS and as I'm almost the same age as him I can relate to his Commodore
64 computer roots but can't hold a candle to him in engineering terms. I don't
know where to delinerate the lines between mental illness, cultural context,
and personality in a complex case like schizophrenia so I've chosen to leave
that question ina grey area.

------
jrapdx3
Having treated thousands of individuals with schizophrenia, bipolar and other
similar severe, chronic disorders I found the article to be fascinating. It
succeeded in portraying the "mindset" of the creator of the OS and giving a
glimpse into his experience. It made me believe Mr. Davis really did share his
deep convictions just as he described.

I've always thought having a mental disorder did not mean a person did not
also have talents, just like the rest of us. "I may be crazy, but I'm not
stupid" is a phrase I heard many patients say. And of course they were right.

In reading the comments posted here, one thing may have been missed. The
TempleOS for all its eccentricity is also very beautiful and in its own way
remarkable coherent. Mr. Davis demonstrates talent not only as a programmer,
but also as an artist, points that should not be overlooked.

Ultimately, the OS is a freely-given contribution to our world and adds to the
important body of work created by people with psychiatric disorders. I think
it should be appreciated in that context.

~~~
themodelplumber
Thank you for your comments.

> TempleOS for all its eccentricity is also very beautiful and in its own way
> remarkable coherent

As a visual designer myself, his highly-symbolic visual language demonstrates
what I understand as a telltale lack of nuance common to those suffering from
certain mental illnesses, but the impressive part to me is that he really
maximizes it. He seems to have access to an amount of "flow" that many people
would kill to harness for their own purposes (of course without its drawbacks
in this case). I was wondering if this may indicate that he is receiving a
level of care that is fitting for his current needs.

I would love to see many other concepts expressed and illustrated with his
current visual vocabulary, but I guess limiting it to Israelite Vision is part
of the tradeoff.

~~~
_exec
Would you please elaborate on this part _"...his highly-symbolic visual
language demonstrates what I understand as a telltale lack of nuance common to
those suffering from certain mental illnesses, but the impressive part to me
is that he really maximizes it"_? I'm really interested in the intersection of
mental health issues with various fields (I've commented elsewhere in this
thread), and this is the first time I hear a review in the context of UX+{non-
NeuroTypical}.

While we're at it, by "flow", do you happen to mean flow in a "workflow zen"
sense [yes, I'm aware that the word zen has been abused to death :) ] know ?

Thanks!

~~~
themodelplumber
I'll give it a shot :)

I was told by a doctor friend that one of the side-effects of heightened
anxiety is a tendency to view things in black and white. "I'm a failure." "I
am a failed human." "She hates me." "I suck at life." "That guy is so perfect
and I'm not." etc. Such hyperbolic interpretations are common to teenagers,
stressed-out university students, and even more so with people who suffer from
chronic anxiety. I know very little about schizophrenia, but I think I recall
that it is, or parts of it may be, part of the general anxiety disorder
sphere. Along with OCD, bipolar disorder, and more.

One of the signs of less-than-mature visual thinking is a hyperbolically-
abstract way of representing things. Sky is blue, people are torso + arms +
legs + head, sand is yellow. In real life of course, the sky might use many
colors from any part of the spectrum of hues--a sunset might use violets,
oranges, reds, all together in a spread of gradients. The color of sand
depends on atmospheric conditions (fog, erupting volcano nearby, time of day--
what color is sand at night, if you were to paint it?), intermediary surfaces
(rose-colored glasses). A human might have one leg (seen from the side), one
big fat leg with two feet (three-quarters view), or even three arms (if you
count the dark shadow that the one arm happens to be producing at the time due
to the light source).

So I'm taking it for granted that a hyperbolic view is pretty much a constant
current in this guy's life. It's pretty much always there, and he seems to be
coping with it enough that he is not out causing damage to society (well, not
physically). But along the way it has informed his entire visual language,
which he relies upon in his interface design. Everything you see on screen in
his creation has gone through his hyperbolic mental filter to become something
very iconic. Because his disorder seems to put a lot of pressure on him to
communicate, we are able to see this rich visual outcome. Even the interface
chrome is a clue. There is apparently no need in his mind for a refined way to
express antialiased curves or subtle lines in the interface. High-contrast,
blinking characters will do. In my rather direct reading, I feel like I am
seeing his brain open up. Everything goes through this threshold filter before
it gets output to the screen, written down, expressed verbally, and so on. So
rather than depth, we get breadth.

The sound works the same way. "This basic sound is good enough" probably never
entered his mind. My guess, of course. But I'm thinking it's more like, "I am
now playing a hymn".

I guess the use of the bible is a great example of this too. More culturally-
refined religions that mesh very well with mankind's search for meaning tend
not to be the ones that condemn people or rely on the harsh words of the old
testament so much.

Whether in art, music, or religion, many of us wish we could be happy with a
more basic, gets-things-done approach. We fill our movies with people who make
quick, brutal decisions that most people could never force themselves to do.
We may listen to hard & heavy music, but simple beats alone will never do--we
crave detail, texture, gradations, refinement. We draw simple pictures, then
wonder why we aren't happy with our representation of our mother's face as a
simple smiling curve and two dots for eyes. These things feel like they trip
us up, but our struggle with them is real and important for our maturity. To
talk to an artist who creates great abstract works, visually, with music, or
with words, but who cannot express his journey through life's gradations, is
to hire a novelty artist; someone to whom we can only relate by tangent. I can
relate to this OS creator by tangent. That tangent is my childhood; the
innocence I left behind some time ago. But I have to acknowledge that I am
drawn to it. I can't just let it go because I see part of myself in there, and
I wonder if I am seeing in his beautifully abbreviated forms what would have
happened to me if I have stayed content as that version of myself for a longer
period of time. Why was I in such a hurry to see the gray areas in life? He is
in a sort of flow (yes, workflow zen like, or alpha-stage like--and that's
where I wonder if, since this alpha-stage, vanishing-fears, creative flow
stuff is so sought after--if this stability he found to develop a whole OS
rather than harass people in the streets all day is due to his home & family
environment / physical needs being met) that is not so scatterbrained--it's
focused. But it (unintentionally) sacrifices a closer look at reality in the
process.

Well, I went a bit overboard and decided I needed to explore this a bit
myself. So nothing definite, but I hope this gets my direction across. I am
more of an intuitive personality type so I build thoughts starting from a hazy
recollection of learning experiences that seem to align nicely ;)

------
dunstad
I find this guy's moments of clarity amazing. I'm not very familiar with
mental illnesses in any form, but it surprises me how clearly he understands
how the rest of the world views him. It makes me think about what the world
might be like if we reverse the situation, and the article were about the only
man who can't hear the voice of God.

~~~
daveloyall
> _I find this guy 's moments of clarity amazing._

Oh, that's because:

> _I 'm not very familiar with mental illnesses [...]_

:)

Schizophrenics are frequently lucid. Well, a modified sort of lucid... It's as
if they are rational folks for whom first principles or axioms have been
shaken up, and indeed are malleable all the time.

It doesn't sound like Terry would ever think that his dinner plate would
sprout legs and walk across the table. But as he stated in the article, he has
thought that some dinners were poisoned.

See, the first one can't happen. The second one could technically happen.
Schizophrenics aren't _stupid_ , you know? :) But, their plausibility metrics
are _broken_.

Regarding the plausibility of a dinner plate walking across a table: Well, it
could happen if the plate is some Transformers(R) style robot, or something.
It could be, if those exist, right? When a schizophrenic tells you something
is true but you think it is implausible, remember: it's not implausible to
them, because they are rational folks employing a different set of base
assumptions than you. Walking plates are normal in a world that has
Transformers(R).

Why would a rational person believe in fictional toy robots? Or even that
someone wants to poison them? ...Well, once you believe in God, or time
travel, or aliens, or that the universe is a simulation, or any number of
"crazy ideas"... once you _actually believe_ one crazy idea, it's all down
hill from there.

But, it is generally an otherwise sane individual that is running down that
hill...

Terry specifically mentioned a feeling or belief that God picks random numbers
or events as a way to communicate with folks. _" I can sit down with my
parents and praise God and open the Bible randomly," he says, "and it will
talk."_ All of those sorts of beliefs are rooted in some form of the following
base principle: "The world is fundamentally not what the common man thinks it
is." Once you think that some entity which has the power to alter individual
atoms or the results of a coin toss (God, aliens, whatever) _exists_ , then
the belief that they would _use_ that power to communicate is just a small
logical step away.

[EDIT: Indeed, I just found this quote from him: _God controls ALL the random
numbers in yer life [...]. Every [...] random number from when you awake to
sleep [...]_ So in his world, if you run over a nail in your car and get a
flat... Well, you did something to deserve it!]

NOTE: Apparently some schizophrenic folks experience vivid, realistic open-
eyed hallucinations sometimes (at the peak of a manic episode) or all the
time. I don't have much experience with that. Sometimes those events coincide
with seizures and events in which awareness and consciousness is lowered. I am
guessing that my "these are rational folks" argument does not apply at those
times (or to some people any the time).

~~~
Covzire
I wouldn't classify his belief in God as a "crazy idea" in the purest sense of
those words. Scientifically, a God powerful enough to create this universe
could easily and rationally be powerful enough to make certain demands of said
creation, one of which might rationally be that the created beings need faith
in God to achieve their designed capability.

There is a wonderful uniformity to the universe that allows computers to
exist. To put that uniformity on a pedastal though and declare there is no God
is definitely not a rational belief one can be dogmatic about.

~~~
zerouniverse
The notion in your first paragraph sounds like a reasonable assertion to me
although it does presuppose the rather dogmatic notion that an omnipotent
Creator would "demand faith" rather than "grant a gift of free will / gift of
being able to forget he exists".

------
_exec
I've stumbled upon Terry's work a long time ago...and suffice to say he's been
a major inspiration. It's a shame the majority of netizens (Yes, HN and Reddit
included) can't look beyond his eccentricity and mental health issues (then
again, it takes some digging and google-fu to find out the full story /
context behind the man...his posts don't exactly come with a disclaimer).

Going down the rabbit hole of Googling, Redditing, finding out more about him
and his story ("a one-man novel, modern x64 almost-but-not-quite-entirely-
unlike-retro OS?" type of thing is catnip to my synapses), I've also come to
understand a friend's schizophrenic relative a bit better. I've read accounts
of schizophrenia and art intersecting, but did not _understand_ what it is,
what it's like, *, until I witnessed schizophrenia intersecting with IT, at
which point the gates of empathy, admiration and fascination were flung wide
open.

[/r/programming's 637 comments thread from 2010]
[http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/e5d8e/demo_vide...](http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/e5d8e/demo_video_of_new_operating_system/)

[another /r/programming thread]
[http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/lhefd/losethos_...](http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/lhefd/losethos_64bit_operating_system_v707_released/)

His username on HN is / has been some variation on "TempleOS", "LoseThos",
"SparrowOS", "TempleOSv2", etc. AFAIK all hellbanned due to un-PC comments
posted in his, for lack of better phrasing, "Moments of Un-Clarity".

The irony (perhaps using the wrong word) of being hellbanned when the story of
of your life's work..your magnum opus (especially in this case, an objective
article that places it in context and with some background) is featured on
HN's front page, makes me sad.

I consider his work to be a prime example of ["Outsider Art"]
{[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outsider_art](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outsider_art)}
in our field.

I wish to collaborate with him one day.

Edit: Formatting, more caffeine.

~~~
alexbecker
While regrettable, his hellban is entirely necessary. Almost every comment he
makes refers to "f------- n------" (censorship mine). To quote one from his
page of most recent comments: "I spend my days clubbing r----d-n------. CLUB!
CLUB! DIE N-----! CLUB! R----D! N------! DIE!! CLUB! N-----!"

That's not really something we can have on HN.

(edit: right, asterisks are formatting here)

~~~
anigbrowl
Inc ase people weren't aware, there's a 'showdead' option in your HN profile
that lets you see dead comments and submissions, eg those from hellbanned
accounts. I don't think terry's comments are so consistently offensive as
suggested above but he does post a lot of stuff that is bizarre or offensive
to the casual reader, so the hellban makes sense.

Other times he posts lucid informative comments on technical topics and
usually someone with Showdead enabled will copy them into the thread so
everyone else can see them. It's not an ideal system but it's an acceptable
compromise between keeping the site usable for as many as possible without
completely barring access to someone like Terry.

~~~
ecdavis
It would be neat if a sufficient number of upvotes could cause a comment from
a hellbanned account to show up as normal. I guess this could be gamed to
circumvent bans, but in Terry's case it could lead to his
informative/worthwhile comments being visible to more people.

~~~
MertsA
Make it a perk for high karma users like downvoting.

------
blt
I really like the "modern, souped-up, multi-tasking, cross between DOS and a
Commodore 64" vision for TempleOS. The OS also has some innovative design
choices like using the C compiler as the shell and compiling most programs on
the fly. It reminds me of Lisp Machines in a way. A different vision of what
computing could be like if closed-source binary-distributed software didn't
exist.

I wish the source code
([http://www.templeos.org/Wb/Accts/TS/Wb2/LineRep.html](http://www.templeos.org/Wb/Accts/TS/Wb2/LineRep.html))
were easier to read though. It's very dense with a lot of abbreviated variable
names and no comments. It's the main reason why I haven't installed TempleOS
yet, because of course I'd want to hack on it, and the code seems tough to
learn.

~~~
jpgvm
It also uses physical memory, not virtual memory and no protection to prevent
'userspace' programs from modifying the kernel. I quote userspace as it
doesn't technically have the same distinctions that you are used to.

This has some interesting performance implications. Specifically there is no
need for a traditional "kernel bypass" when you want to work with hardware
from userspace.

For instance in Linux we have stacks like the Infiniband networking stack and
some userspace TCP stacks (usually based on PF_RING) that are quite a hack to
build in Linux that would be "just the way it is" in TempleOS. (though it's
worth mentioning that TempleOS has not networking capability, apparently Gods
decision)

These sorts of operating systems were common before multi-user computing but
died out because of the need to protect the operating system from it's users
and the applications they may want to run.

However the world is coming full circle again. Unikernels are back, sometimes
they are written in C, sometimes in OCaml (MirageOS), sometimes in Erlang
(ZergVM or something I think).

TempleOS may actually provide insights for how to do these sorts of things as
it's been built this way for a long time which can't be said of many other
modern operating systems.

Alas, people would probably need to see past the somewhat spiky exterior
(Terry himself) to appreciate his work.

------
andywood
To anyone brandishing the word 'racist' here, can you point us to any instance
where what Terry wrote was not merely a rambling screed with the n-word in it,
but actually racist thought. Because to me, those are different things - the
former likely an excusable symptom, and the latter, y'know, actual _racism_.

Maybe you think it's the same. Maybe you're enforcing your zero-tolerance
policy. If so, we disagree. To me it looks like a huge assumption, possibly
more offensive than Terry's rants.

~~~
kristofferR
I could - but I don't see the point at all. Blaming him for being a racist is
like blaming someone with alzheimer for being forgetful.

~~~
andywood
That's my only point: that there's correlation between his condition, and his
rants, therefore we don't say, "That guy?? He 'espouses racist ideology'!! __*
Screw 'im!"

 __* (actual comment in this thread)

------
seccess
Reading this, I'm reminded of Kary Mullis, inventor of PCR (polymerase chain
reaction). PCR is widely considered to be the most important discovery of
modern biology, ushering a new era of scientific research after he invented it
in the 1980s. He won a nobel prize for it.

Kary was a bit off though (in this case due to intense drug usage, I think).
Afterwards, he went on to deny that HIV is the cause of AIDS, tried to
discredit global warming, and began believing in astrology and magic.

In the end, its possible that a little bit of insanity is a good thing; that
it can help someone make a profound discovery that no one else could see. Too
much is obviously detrimental, however.

~~~
Ollinson
Not exactly drug induced or a mental Illness but Ronald Fisher, arguably the
father of modern statistics, went to great lengths to prove cancer caused
smoking due to his personal convictions[1].

[1]
[http://www.epidemiology.ch/history/PDF%20bg/Stolley%20PD%201...](http://www.epidemiology.ch/history/PDF%20bg/Stolley%20PD%201991%20when%20genius%20errs%20-%20RA%20fisher%20and%20the%20lung%20cancer.pdf)

Even when you're talking about geniuses it's important to separate the wheat
from the chaff.

~~~
fragmede
> prove cancer caused smoking

I thought you typed that backwards, but skimming your link, that is indeed
what he claimed!

------
mblevin
Throughout the span of modern history, we've had gifted creators whose talent
is at a minimum intertwined if not completely predicated on their mental
illness. Whether it was Van Gogh or Kurt Kobain, we've seen it consistently.

Terry is potentially one of the first if not the only creators of this type
using a completely digital medium.

TempleOS is essentially a 10-year art project.

~~~
lomnakkus
Unfortunately, in years past, we only heard (in the mainstream) from the few
that succeeded, not the huge numbers of individuals that just ended up in
asylums or, worse, dead.

That's not to take anything away from the "project" (as art), but let's be
realistic about the possible gains we (as a society) can gain from this. My
conjecture is that it would be better to try to get some help for this person.

~~~
darkmighty
I find it very weird that his treatment is being viewed as unnecessary due to
him producing something. Any other disease and this would be frowned upon.

His disease is a sad and miserable existence. Being schizophrenic is like have
everyone against you; religion is his coping mechanism not to freak out
against everything, but who knows how long it's going to last.

Anyone suggesting he could get be offered a job clearly never really knew
someone with the condition. I think it _could_ be possible if he worked
remotely, though.

I hate so much schizophrenia... being denied reality has got to be one of the
worst conditions a person can find herself in.

~~~
mblevin
I don't think treatment is unnecessary at all - I assume if he was on
medication he'd be gainfully employed writing code somewhere, and potentially
producing even more interesting things.

Rather I was highlighting that individuals possessing a certain artistic
talent, potentially correlated with propensity for mental illness, when
untreated may produce incredible works of art as a side effect.

I'm not at all saying that him or society has a net benefit from that at all,
but rather it's a second-order effect that is quite different from what we
often observe (and stereotype) in terms of schizophrenia and mental illness.

Purely an observation vs a judgment.

------
TeMPOraL
I really liked the article. It was very respectful towards Terry and shown a
deeper understanding of his life and issues he faced. It was explaining, not
judging. I now have a much more complete picture of the man I know only from
shadowbanned comments here on HN.

------
GuiA
I'm a huge fan of Terry's work, because he works hard, has a clear vision for
what he wants to do, and makes it happen. That's more than can be said of many
self-professed hackers who never see a project to completion or are motivated
solely by peer recognition.

You may disagree with the logical coherency of his goals - I for one think the
"temple for God" thing is pure kookery - but he is a master craftsman, and in
this context it's all that really matters. There are people who devote their
entire lives to pointless things. There are people who work on supposedly
pointless things, which later turn out to not be so pointless. There are
people who are supposedly working on world-changing things, which really are
completely pointless. In the end, you can't predict the future. Just do honest
work that you feel is worthwhile, and see what happens.

(if you want to play the hypothetical game, who's to say that Terry Davis
won't develop some extremely efficient low level algorithms/techniques never
done before that will dramatically impact computing?)

Every time his story comes up, there are people who respond with answers along
the lines of "what can we do for him? can we find him assisted employment? can
we raise money for him?" etc. While these comments are surely well
intentioned, they end up being mostly condescending and out of place, as if
talking about a completely helpless being. But Terry strikes me as anything
but helpless - based on the various interviews he's given and comments he's
posted, he seems to be quite content with his situation, and that "assisted
employment" is the last thing he'd want or need. If anything, this is just a
further argument for reforms like basic income and better treatment of mental
conditions (e.g. with better early detection).

There are also always comments expressing surprise at how one can suffer from
such a mental condition and yet do complex intellectual work like low level
programming. These questions are based on the premise that schizophrenia (or a
similar condition) impacts your brain in such a way that would make logical
reasoning impossible. But that's not how it operates - logical reasoning is
largely unaffected. Like `daveloyall says in another comment in this thread
[0], what's affected are a few key "first principles". For instance, if you're
persuaded that you're being constantly tracked by the CIA, removing all your
clothes or dismantling your car to make sure you aren't bugged are very
logical, reasonable things to do. The problem is that when you're operating
under premises that are shared with no one else, the resulting dissonance
makes integration with the rest of society problematic. But with this in mind,
it's easy to see why one could be schizophrenic and yet still be able to
program or do math or weave baskets, especially if the skills were mastered
before the condition developed.

Terry is a maker of miniatures [1], and I'm happy we have such people walking
among us.

[0]:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8658958](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8658958)

[1]: [http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2006/04/10/in-the-reign-
of...](http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2006/04/10/in-the-reign-of-harad-iv)

~~~
sillysaurus3
_Every time his story comes up, there are people who respond with answers
along the lines of "what can we do for him? can we find him assisted
employment? can we raise money for him?" etc. While these comments are surely
well intentioned, they end up being mostly condescending and out of place, as
if talking about a completely helpless being._

He is openly racist. He can't find a job on his own, unless it's among other
extreme racists. I'm extrapolating based on his online behavior. If his real-
life behavior is completely different, then that's one thing, but that seems
unlikely. And his online behavior is so racist that there's just no chance of
him fitting into any average social situation.

His racism probably isn't his fault. It's probably a factor of his condition.
But isn't that the definition of "needs help"? So shouldn't we try to ask
whether he wants our help, and if so, find an open-minded employer who might
listen to the situation and be willing to give Terry a shot?

~~~
king_jester
> His racism probably isn't his fault. It's probably a factor of his
> condition.

I don't know if his racism is the result of or related to his condition.
However, even if it is, so what? Why exactly does that behavior get to be
overlooked as though it doesn't have a real effect on people who suffer from
it? Why does he get assistance to find a job while non-white people struggle
to find work in tech?

~~~
hueving
"while non-white people struggle to find work in tech?", said nobody who has
ever been in Silicon Valley.

~~~
DanBC
What happens if you send two identical resumes to a gajillion different jobs -
the resumes are identical except one has the name "James Smith" and the other
has the name "Jamal Jackson".

Luckily, other people have done this for us:

[http://www.povertyactionlab.org/evaluation/discrimination-
jo...](http://www.povertyactionlab.org/evaluation/discrimination-job-market-
united-states)

~~~
netstag
Not to discredit your point, as I do believe it's still has some validity, but
that study is 12 years old and I'd like to think there has been some progress
since then... You know like maybe having a president with the name Barack
Obama.

~~~
PhasmaFelis
You figure a black person being elected President makes racists stop being
racist?

'Cause I know some racists, and I can tell you that the opposite is true.

~~~
vidarh
To me, the best demonstration of continued racism, is that there's no way
Obama - being half-black, half-white - would have been able to get away with
self-identifying as white.

~~~
Dylan16807
That's not really an aspect of racism. It's the way races are (poorly)
defined. He qualifies as black unless we can kill the meme of races entirely,
even in a world that had no prejudice.

~~~
vidarh
The way races are defined is racist to begin with - that is the point - and
the way it is being used to label people is explicitly used to put people
down. Obama is "black" and not "white" solely because for a lot of people it
is very important to label him black to be able to dismiss him. If people were
not racist, nobody would e.g. care if people referred to him as white. Try
referring to him even as mixed race, or half-white, and see the racists
quickly come crawling out of the woodwork to make sure it is made clear how
black he is.

~~~
Dylan16807
It's a description of someone's skin color and facial features for the most
part. It's not _fundamentally_ racist, that's just the main use.

------
yzzxy
I wonder if there is something the programming community could do to help him.
I'm not sure what this could entail, but I'd hope there are people who would
be willing to talk with him about his interests or attempt to set up some kind
of assisted employment situation - he is by all accounts a very talented
engineer.

~~~
vinceguidry
One of the wonderful things about Western society is that it's got enough
social welfare structures to allow someone like Terry to exist, is wealthy
enough to allow them to thrive, should they want to, and enough individualism
to where he's not _constantly_ being beaten over the head with other people's
demands for him to change to fit their idea of what a person should be.

As someone who has at times relied on this social largesse, I can say that
attempts to do more wouldn't really have the desired effect. His is a wholly
self-directed life, attempts to 'help' would take the self-directed quality
out of his life that is being selected for. If you're worried for his well-
being, I can say from experience that a person's subconscious mind is a lot
more capable than we give it credit for.

If Terry wants to work, he will find work. His subconscious mind will proclaim
through God that he is to glorify Him through this new avenue, which just so
happens to be in a company in return for a salary. If he wants to do something
else, he will do that something else.

He doesn't need us, and that's the real beauty of it.

~~~
yzzxy
I don't know if this is true. I find it extremely unlikely that the average
employer would even consider employing someone with apparent mental health
issues, so it's possible many people in similar situations just give up.

I don't think he should be forced to work, or even pushed to do so. But I
really don't see the harm in making an offer of employment or something
similar - It's not "condescending" as some other commenters have contended and
implies nothing beyond what it is. If he wants to live on the social welfare
that he almost surely deserves and spend his life coding or doing whatever he
chooses, that's fine. I'm just suggesting that other doors could be opened.

~~~
vinceguidry
I wouldn't say you're so much condescending to him as rather underestimating
him.

~~~
yzzxy
How would I be underestimating him? If anything, I'm underestimating his
potential employers. There's a digital fossil record of what he's said online
at this point, and the average hiring manager will probably just throw him out
as a candidate as soon as they any of his posts, unless they take the time to
understand the larger situation at play.

~~~
vinceguidry
He's not this helpless, crazy clod, he has a network and friends and
everything. His fate is not wholly in the hands of "average hiring managers".

~~~
yzzxy
So isn't help from friends or a professional network related to hiring EXACTLY
what I described?

~~~
vinceguidry
No, you're suggesting random people on the Internet who don't know him do it.

------
m0th87
What fascinates me about Terry is that his schizophrenia doesn't somehow
prevent his ability to make something as complex as an entire operating
system.

Maybe this suggests that while schizophrenics look discordant to the rest of
us, there's an internal consistency that very much makes sense.

------
Gracana
> As an undergrad he’d been hired at Ticketmaster to program operating
> systems.

Ticketmaster, huh! Does anyone know anything about what they were working on?

~~~
TTPrograms
Maybe he meant operating systems for automated ticket kiosks.

~~~
OldSchool
That's correct as I recall.

------
jpgvm
Sad that the debate got almost entirely derailed by people labeling Terry a
racist.

The poor man probably doesn't even realise he is offending peoples fragile
sensibilities.

I think people need to cut him some slack when it comes to language. They are
just words, there is no intent.

~~~
DanBC
We can condemn the behaviour while having sympathy about the causes.

~~~
jpgvm
Sure, but it's such a waste to even talk about it.

There is so much more productive discussion to be had.

------
MarkPNeyer
i have had a number of experiences very similar to what terry went through.
connecting computing to religion, seeing 'larger patterns' that weren't there,
believing in conspiracies directed at me... it was rough.

i was lucky enough to have a few people really step up and support me when i
was at the edge. it's weird reading this and feeling like i know exactly what
he means when he says this stuff that sounds crazy.

here's a description of one experience i had in april 2011, a day before
joining uber:

[http://www.reddit.com/r/BipolarReddit/comments/l7nij/interes...](http://www.reddit.com/r/BipolarReddit/comments/l7nij/interesting_humorous_not_tragic_manic_stories/)

this is something i submitted later to hn, while cto of a gaming company:

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3877483](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3877483)

i made it out of all that, though. thanks almost entirely to daily love and
support from my now wife. if you have friends in a position like this - you
CAN help them, it's just a crazy amount of work.

~~~
MrBra
Didn't read the comments at reddit yet, but I wanted to say that a friend of
mine, also in IT, had a similar experience where he started to see
conspiracies everywhere, and "religion thoughts" kicked in for him as well.
After some time on cure this regressed and he now even jokes about that
period.

He got to work again and has a completely normal life, but in a way I can
still feel something changed inside of him...

It'd be nice if I could talk about this more with you. I will surely read your
comments.

~~~
MarkPNeyer
sure - add me on facebook or through my blog or what have you.

------
zafka
I really enjoyed this window into the life of "LoseThos". I am glad that he
seems to be both relatively safe and happy. I think in the long run the value
his life's work will be comparable or greater than the worth of most of his
peers.

~~~
Nursie
How do you figure that?

I'm genuinely interested. He's made a network-less OS with a fixed, low-
resolution display, that is of seriously limited utility in the modern world
and (AFAICT) doesn't advance the state of the art, all as an act of worship.

It's a curiosity, but of value? Not so much.

~~~
zafka
We don't have an argument here, but rather two different ways of looking at
the same facts. For comparison, I was paid rather well to add diagnostic code
to large PBX systems in the late 1990's, recently I have been working on a
variety of embedded projects, some for solar, some for medical devices. In 50
years, my guess is that all of my code will have fallen out of use. Most
likely, so will Terry's,but there is a small chance it will hold out as a
curiosity. Now we are down to one of my hobbies: What is meant by Quality?
What is Meant by Value? As a side note, I think the whole project is an
interesting view into how the mind works. I am very much in agreement with
theories that posit very high intelligence is often intertwined with what we
call mental illness. The same reduced filters that can cause so much anguish
give others the ability to see hidden facts in everyday objects.

------
Torn
I remember the somethingawful.com thread where someone tried to install his
operating system. It got real crazy real fast.

There was a HN thread here discussing it, and the top comments were people
rightfully suggesting the guy needs serious mental help, not derision. The
suggestion he had schizophrenia was thrown around a lot.

Following the rabbit hole from 2012, it seems he was banned from SA, and
shadowbanned here on HN, but are visible if you turn on 'showdead' in your
profile options: [http://www.metafilter.com/119424/An-Operating-System-for-
Son...](http://www.metafilter.com/119424/An-Operating-System-for-Songs-from-
God)

------
euphemize
From the _TempleOS: AfterEgypt_ video[1]:

"Now you're supposed to do an offering before you talk to God. [...] just get
conversation, maybe being witty and charming - or praise - like 'praise god
for sandcastles and snowmen and bubbles and popcorn'...hum, I'm gonna praise
him for something new, which is isotopes! Like you have Carbon-14 and stuff
like that. I think that's pretty cool. Didn't have to be that way, maybe...Ok
here we go!"

Fascinating.

[1]
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RzhRYGm_b9A](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RzhRYGm_b9A)

~~~
Redoubts

      *hold court*
      
      "Woman commits blasphemy"
      *punish*
      
      "Child commits idolatry"
      *really punish*

------
icedchai
I ran into Losethos / TempleOS many years ago and installed it on a VM. I
found it interesting. Something different that wasn't another spin on Unix.

Terry is very clever, creative, and very opinionated. (Sorry, an OS needs
basic networking if people are going to use it.)

He has a mental illness... but, without it, would he have that creativity and
focus to make something like his OS? I doubt it.

Do I agree with the outrageous things he says on forums? Absolutely not. But I
can respect him and his creation.

------
Delmania
Terry is technically brilliant, but I just don't understand TempleOS. I can't
tell if he's serious, or it's a tongue in cheek concept.

~~~
yzzxy
It's very real. I've installed it in a VM and played around for a while - it's
technically very impressive and has a HUGE number of utilities and weird
little features.

~~~
damurdock
Does it run in standard VirtualBox?

~~~
zenciadam
yes

------
jason_slack
Terry really is a gifted programmer.

~~~
kelvin0
Since you seem to be on a first name basis with him, can you tell us more
about him? His work, aspirations?

~~~
jason_slack
I dont know him, I just know his name. I think we all know him here as Terry.

~~~
gojomo
In fact his chosen name here is his project name, 'TempleOS':

[https://news.ycombinator.com/threads?id=TempleOS](https://news.ycombinator.com/threads?id=TempleOS)

It was previously 'losethos', when that was his project's name:

[https://news.ycombinator.com/threads?id=losethos](https://news.ycombinator.com/threads?id=losethos)

~~~
Igglyboo
He's got a lot of accounts actually because they all keep getting hellbanned.

------
firebones
We have the ability to filter. Due to his condition, he does not. We should
embrace the good and productive that comes from his work, without judgment,
and use our filters to deflect and ignore the bad.

(Note: this heuristic applies to almost any human, regardless of recognized
DSM status. We'd be well-served to save our breath and embrace this outlook.)

------
lexcorvus
I'm reminded of this quote from Joseph Campbell: "The schizophrenic is
drowning in the same waters in which the mystic swims with delight." Terry
Davis seems to be treading water—stuck somewhere between revelation and
oblivion.

------
kaffeemitsahne
_Driving south with no clear destination, he says, "I was listening to the
radio and it seemed like the radio was talking to me."_

I had delusions of reference once, it's such a strange feeling. Not
necessarily scary.

------
jqm
I have a theory that sometimes mental illness is manifestation of a naturally
evolved attribute gone too far. Sort of a "cancer of thinking" if you will.

In this case I would say it is the the ability to perceive and relate
patterns. A powerful attribute of our species and one of the defining features
of intelligence I believe. But then it gets out of control and the pattern
matching starts matching things that don't actually match.

Only a wild theory. I have no reference nor training in the subject. Just
trying to match patterns:)

------
api
I consider this a pretty fascinating piece of art. It's like an artcar, but
it's an artOS!

It reminds me of Salvation Mountain in Southern California, but with
preemptive multitasking. :)

[http://www.roadsideamerica.com/story/17476](http://www.roadsideamerica.com/story/17476)

------
zaius
If you'd like to see his comments on HN, enable showdead in your profile and
then go here -
[https://news.ycombinator.com/threads?id=TempleOS](https://news.ycombinator.com/threads?id=TempleOS)

------
buovjaga
An article about TempleOS appeared in the Finnish computer magazine Skrolli
earlier this year:
[http://www.skrolli.fi/2014.2.crt.pdf](http://www.skrolli.fi/2014.2.crt.pdf)
(page 56).

------
pjbrunet
Looks like "folk art" to me.

Like dropping an IBM PC on Gilligan's Island ;-)

------
esaym
I have never heard of this guy. His work and commentary are totally awesome! I
have heard more original things and phrases from him in 30 minutes than in the
last 2 years!

~~~
esaym
Down voted for praise? Well...

------
trit
What's he up to now? Is he pushing out any new projects? I had that he was
making miniatures, but haven't had a chance to read the article.

------
danielweber
Something about that webpage is making my computer slow to a crawl.

~~~
softdev12
Same here. It must be overloaded from HN.

~~~
PhasmaFelis
That actually made sense for a moment. I think it's time for bed.

------
minusSeven
meh can't read it. Article won't display on firefox. On IE formatting isn't
correct and half the article is unreadable. Can anyone post the contents of
the article.

------
placebo
>If he won the lottery three times, he asks, would she believe?

I would... :)

------
cyphunk
uncompressed
[http://cypherpoet.com/TempleOS/](http://cypherpoet.com/TempleOS/)

------
pluma
"Weird guy makes an OS because God told him so" sounds less hilarious if
you're aware of why the Perl programming language exists.

~~~
RaleyField
Go on.

~~~
gamegoblin
The parent _may_ be (I have no idea...) referencing a line from the
(hilarious) "A Brief, Incomplete, and Mostly Wrong History of Programming
Languages" [1].

The entry for 1987 is:

"""

1987 - Larry Wall falls asleep and hits Larry Wall's forehead on the keyboard.
Upon waking Larry Wall decides that the string of characters on Larry Wall's
monitor isn't random but an example program in a programming language that God
wants His prophet, Larry Wall, to design. Perl is born.

"""

[1] [http://james-iry.blogspot.com/2009/05/brief-incomplete-
and-m...](http://james-iry.blogspot.com/2009/05/brief-incomplete-and-mostly-
wrong.html)

~~~
pluma
Although that's of course an exaggeration, there's this bit in his Wikipedia
article [1]:

"""

Wall's Christian faith has influenced some of the terminology of Perl, such as
the name itself, a biblical reference to the "pearl of great price" (Matthew
13:46). Similar references are the function name bless, and the organization
of Perl 6 design documents with categories such as apocalypse and exegesis.

"""

Also in [2] he alludes to his faith having played a major part if not in the
decision to create Perl then at least in the design decisions (e.g. TMTOWTDI)
he made.

He's not as overtly religious (and most definitely not as mentally unstable)
as the author of TempleOS, but he's certainly far above the norm compared to
other well-known creators of programming languages.

[1]:
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Larry_Wall](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Larry_Wall)

[2]: [http://interviews-
beta.slashdot.org/story/02/09/06/1343222/l...](http://interviews-
beta.slashdot.org/story/02/09/06/1343222/larry-wall-on-perl-religion-and)

~~~
MrBra
If religions inspire languages, then I start to understand why language wars
exist.

~~~
pluma
Language wars exist because of how human social behaviour works ("othering",
tribalism, etc). The funny thing about that is that the more similar two
languages/ideologies/religions/etc are, the stronger will their adherents
likely feel about the distinction. Especially with "forks" (e.g. look at how
much the various Muslim sects hate each other in the Middle East).

Just be glad no programming language has tried to recruit users with promises
of a pleasurable afterlife yet. The "wars" between the various programming
language communities may be bad enough as it is, but at least they're not
blowing each other up yet.

------
davidgerard
Still a better love story than Urbit.

------
anon4
Interesting that he says he talks to God through randomness. I heard an idea
along these lines not long ago - the measure of entropy in the universe is
constantly increasing. But entropy is also a measure of the amount of
information stored in the system (if you take a file with low entropy, it will
compress to a smaller file with higher entropy). So the weird world of quantum
effects is basically caused by (or is the equivalent of) information being
constantly poured in the universe. In a sense, God speaks new information and
quantum effects happen.

------
redthrowaway
Could we get TempleOS un-shadowbanned for this thread?

~~~
vichu
I personally would love to have him host an AMA-style thread where we could
ask him things about TempleOS and his illness.

I'm tentative as to how that would turn out though.

~~~
teraflop
In case you missed it, there's a link in the article to a sort-of-Q&A
discussion he took part in a couple years back on MetaFilter:
[http://www.metafilter.com/119424/An-Operating-System-for-
Son...](http://www.metafilter.com/119424/An-Operating-System-for-Songs-from-
God#4538269)

(Back then he called his OS "LoseThos" and used that as his username.)

~~~
mattmanser
LoseThos was his username here for a while too:

[https://news.ycombinator.com/threads?id=losethos](https://news.ycombinator.com/threads?id=losethos)

------
msie
God, I'm a lonely programmer.

------
MrBra
so, how 'bout that :)

~~~
MrBra
stupid hypercritical judgmental people downvoting did not understand the
sympathetic reference.. and are probably the ones to know less here about this
guy, oh well..

~~~
a_c_s
FYI: Your comment is being downvoted because, well-intentioned though it may
be, it doesn't contribute to the discussion.

~~~
MrBra
Also because they don't know what I am referring to.

------
lmm
The lionization of this guy reminds me of the reporting of the Charge of the
Light Brigade. All those noble British soldiers, following orders even unto
death, what courage, what majesty... when what should really have been said
was: what a bunch of bloody idiots, who got themselves killed for no reason.
And so the same foolishness repeated throughout the first world war.

So let me say it: this guy, whether through his own fault or because of his
problems, is acting like a dumbass. He's pouring a lot of talent into a
pointless project that no-one will ever use or benefit from. He is not someone
to look up to or admire, and certainly not to emulate. Do not romanticise his
foolishness.

~~~
nekopa
Hold on, let me get this straight: You think that someone who does what he
does because he honestly believes he is doing god's work (because of a mental
illness) is a dumbass?

Next you'll call John Nash fucking retarded for being afraid of men in red
ties.

~~~
lmm
Nash was great in spite of his issues, not because of them; his work was a
real, useful contribution to human knowledge, because (in contrast to this
guy) he worked with the wider mathematical community, which then in turn later
built on his work.

Being afraid of men in red ties is still a dumb thing to do, and won't make
you a great mathematician. We romanticize the outsiders, but the great bulk of
the mathematical edifice was constructed by relatively ordinary, well-adjusted
people like Euler. If you want to be a great mathematician, it isn't Nash you
should model yourself on.

~~~
_exec
What about Erdős :) ?

~~~
lmm
Erdős was one of the greats, but emphasis on "one of". Again, it's easy to
romanticize someone who's different, like a microcosm of orientalism. Erdős
may even have been the best mathematician of his generation, but he wasn't
head and shoulders above everyone else the way people sometimes seem to imply,
and he wasn't (IMO, if the question even makes sense) the best of all time.

