
Empathy among students in engineering programmes - oinkgrr
http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/03043797.2012.708720?journalCode=ceee20&
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RyanZAG
There is a key fault common to every 'scientific' study done in this area -
and there is an immense number of these studies done every year.

The correct headline should be as follows: "Engineering students do not view
themselves as caring as medical students do." Key point being that these are
not studies done on 'action', but rather on 'cheap speech'. I can claim to be
the most empathetic person alive, but will happily walk out the room and flip
off a beggar asking for change while still believing I am empathetic as I may
subconsciously not recognize the act.

This is a huge problem with these kind of studies, and imho, these studies are
fairly worthless. If you want to test this kind of thing, pretend to be a
beggar outside each faculty and see which students actually help the most
rather than say they will help the most.

~~~
Aardwolf
The headline was something like "Engineers have no empathy and are cold and
dead inside" and linked to a sensational article on theregister. Now the title
is more moderate and it links to the scientific paper instead. What happened?

~~~
klibertp
This is the same paper that was linked in the article, so I think it's all
good. Here is the link to The Register for curious (and lazy):
[http://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/01/21/engineers_cold_and_d...](http://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/01/21/engineers_cold_and_dead_inside/)

~~~
azernik
And for those who appreciate tongue-in-cheek mockery.

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rauljara
Somewhere in the icy depths of the pit I have for a soul, a cruel and callous
feeling of detached amusement was conjured forth by the not at all hyperbolic
writing I just read. I enjoyed the image of the zombie hordes of engineers
spreading our deathly chill over these lands.

~~~
pdwetz
Stop being creative! You'll give us all a bad name...

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Aardwolf
Breaking news: people in a job about caring for people, care more for people
than people in a job not about caring for people. Film at 11.

~~~
MrMatters
A more interesting comparison if you're going to use medicine, IMO, is how
it's the exact opposite for surgeons compared to doctors. If you believe The
Wisdom of Psychopaths: What Saints, Spies, and Serial Killers Can Teach Us
About Success by Kevin Dutton (which is the basis of this HuffPo article):

[http://www.huffingtonpost.com/eric-barker/which-
professions-...](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/eric-barker/which-professions-
have-the-most-psychopaths_b_2084246.html)

It makes sense because doctors require a high level of empathy whereas
surgeons need to be better under pressure, be able to hold longer focus, etc.
which are qualities of psychopaths.

~~~
roc
How much of that can we ascribe to turnover though?

Is it people who _go into_ surgery care less? Or only people who care less can
_handle_ a career in surgery, where you typically have no bond to the patient,
see many more people die (potentially due your own limitations or outright
mistakes) and even when they live, you may see them for a follow-up exam or
two, but not really ever again?

There seems to be huge down-sides for an empathic surgeon and very little
emotional up-side.

~~~
sliverstorm
Bang. This guy hit all the points I was going to make.

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edtechdev
"The computing students, once gender effects had been eliminated, actually
came out basically the same as medical and caring types: they had turned out
to be normal, warm, caring human beings. It was in fact the physics-based
classical engineers who were dead inside."

They also missed a key tidbit from the original news release.
[http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/01/130117084854.ht...](http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/01/130117084854.htm)

The computing students (who were found to be as empathetic as others once
controlling for gender) were taught using problem-based learning techniques -
i.e., working in teams on real-world problems and projects. The other group
was taught using traditional methods (lecture, rote memorization).

"For computer engineering students, the differences were largely eliminated.
The researchers have a theory about why: the computer engineering students are
taught with PBL, problem-based learning, which is not the case for the applied
physics students. Chato Rasoal believes this can influence the degree of
empathy."

Engineering (and math and science) professors need to improve how they teach.
Here are 3 simple, research-backed tips for doing so: 1) incorporate everyday
examples in your teaching, 2) use tools and techniques to improve student
spatial visualizations skills, and 3) talk with and interact with your
students (out of class and online): <http://www.engageengineering.org/>

------
Irregardless
For any other Americans who were wondering what bicycle stunts might have to
do with this research:

> Noun. trick cyclist (plural trick cyclists) 1\. (UK, slang) A psychiatrist

My ability to detect British humor through text must be pretty poor, because
it took several re-reads and a Googling of "trick cyclist" to finally notice
the sarcasm/satire.

~~~
arethuza
"ability to detect British humor"

That would make an excellent browser plugin.

~~~
sageikosa
Most likely it would route all process requests through a single queue.

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sageikosa
Some people burn on the outside just enough to keep those around them warm.
Some burn deep on the inside to heat the boilers that turn the turbines in
their minds that move the world.

~~~
yangez
The two aren't mutually exclusive.

~~~
sageikosa
Those are the ones we call "genius" in the classical definition of the term
(as opposed to raw intellectual power). So, yes some people have both (or
develop) the inner fire and the outer charisma to match.

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dkhenry
Wait everyone isn't cold and dead inside ? I thought I was just normal.

~~~
nealabq
It's perfectly normal. As is an insatiable hunger for brains.

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ntkachov
I'm pretty sure I'm 36.6 C and very much alive, thank you very much.

I don't appreciate the "Engineers are ice cold" rhetoric. I can't tell if its
satirizing the research or if they are just link baiting but this article
seems to portray all engineers as terrible people.

~~~
DanBC
> or if they are just link baiting

The register is pretty awful rag and full of stupid annoying link-baity trash.

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antman
This is plain wrong. I am sure that in my friends' minds I am a caring and
compassionate person. In return I try to do my best preserving them in my
basement.

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mwgriffith
Does the register think it's the onion??

~~~
angersock
Eh, once in a while it's nice to see them raise their quality of reporting.

~~~
meaty
It's not much of a baseline to rise up from though...

~~~
angersock
Baby steps.

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olliesaunders
Same old story: judging people by stereotypes isn’t such a great idea but
remains tempting due to potential savings in cycles.

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nealabq
It'd be interesting to study left-wing vs right-wing politicians. Are they all
cold/calculating or warm/gooey inside? And how about tribalism? Do people
(especially little kids) feel more empathy for people who look the same as
they do?

~~~
jerf
I'd be interested in such serious research too, but so far everything I've
ever seen on the topic has pretty clearly been "research", emphasized scare
quotes, with predetermined results that just happen to precisely flatter the
preconceived notions of the researchers, and I don't trust the results.

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kabdib
This explains /everrrything/ about hardware engineers :-)

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31reasons
It would have been more interesting if it was something like this: "A study
carried out by psychology researchers find that Engineers were sent by the
machines from the future to build robots and make entire human race their
slaves"

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Groxx
I'd be curious to see these questions. Somehow I suspect the engineers chose
options that were 'coldly calculating' and lead to better end results -
frankly, I'd prefer that in more doctors.

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darxius
I'm a computer engineer and I'm as cold as the hardware I support.

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zwieback
I'm a mechanical-electrical-software engineer. I can practically feel the two
forces at war inside of me. I also studied optics, I wonder if that gives me
some special insight?

~~~
mctx
Mechatronic? Or do you have three degrees?

~~~
zwieback
No, just an ME degree from Stuttgart but I focussed on controls and optics. I
worked in machine vision for years and gradually drifted into software and
firmware engineering with a lot of EE mixed in. I'm at HP now and they don't
car what your degree is in.

~~~
mctx
Sounds like an interesting career! I'm working as a software engineer on a
rail automation project at the moment, finishing my BEng in Mechatronics in
mid 2013. May I ask what you work on at HP?

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brudgers
Here's the original scientific paper:

[http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/03043797.2012.70...](http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/03043797.2012.708720)

Sadly.

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Cybrid
Bullshit, if anything it should be the opposite, a surgeon that tends to get
too emmotionally attached to their patients won't last long.

~~~
fatalerrorx3
Plus surgeons deal with death on a more frequent basis than almost anyone
else, if anything they're more likely to become numb to this, therefore
becoming less emotional. Maybe this article is referring people who are still
studying/in medical school whose goal it is to one day help people.

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numeromancer
Who cares what they think? Their importance, and the importance of most
people, is an insignificant factor in the equation of life.

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novalis
"Social Science" at its best. Too cold ?

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drcube
> using a "well-established questionnaire"

Self-reported "data" is useless.

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mping
I hit a paywall asking me 33 €.

