
Let me take you through my dream office - tckr
https://blog.coderbyheart.com/office-design-by-an-office-hater
======
noir_lord
Decided to change job recently, applied for two, went for an interview at the
first and they offered me the job.

I took it on the spot despite the other place paying more.

One of the reasons I took it on the spot was when asked where I'd prefer to
work and I said somewhere quiet he said there are offices upstairs, take
whichever one you want.

That was _the_ major deciding factor (among others), I know the other place is
open plan.

I'll take slightly less pay to sit in a quiet office and work over an open
office.

(Other things I liked about the job where flex time, I buy all hardware I need
myself, they pay for conferences, training courses, no phone on the desk (I
asked for that and they said no problem), an interesting complex problem (I
like enterprise stuff) and they are strongly focused on building out some
proper in-house technical skill and replacing their creaking systems, I get
technical freedom, I can use whatever I want on the backend and I'll be
assembling a team as they bring stuff back in house and final kicker it's 10m
walk from where I live so no commute).

Since both places pay more than enough for me to live comfortably in north of
England I'll happily take the slightly lower pay (in the short term) for the
above.

I don't think employers _still_ understand how much _some_ developers loathe
open offices, it's not a 'prefer' to, it is a 'won't if at all possible'.

~~~
ensiferum
"some" developers? I'd guess that's in fact "most".

In my experience the only people who like open office are those whose job is
to talk all day long. Sales guys, visionaires, busy bodies etc. Everyone else
just suffers.

~~~
mgkimsal
This evergreen topic comes up enough that there will always be multiple sides
to this topic. I've gone so far in past threads to imply that other devs were
"wrong" about being more productive in open office plans, and got bashed for
that. "Don't tell me how I'm more productive", etc.

There may never actually be _hard data_ on this, because it's, at core, likely
very hard to measure, but I'd love to read some research/findings on this
issue more.

I'm in a coworking situation now, with a private space, and I'm always more
_productive_ in the private space. But I do relieve some stress and get
energized by interacting with others in the common area. And in previous jobs,
there's _of course_ always times when you need to talk to colleagues about
project issues, and that's a requirement.

To the folks (devs) who insist that they are "more productive" in open plan
offices, I wonder if the rest of the folks in the room with you are equally as
productive, or if the productivity is just being shifted from some people in
the room to others.

~~~
mseebach
I think there are at least two different kinds of productivity. One is the
kind where you need to progress through a non-trivial body of work with a
well-understood end-state. Your primary, if not sole, output is code. This is
probably well suited for private offices and remote teams.

The other is where you're solving a problem that isn't in the first order a
code problem. There are typically humans involved in these kinds of problems.
Most instances where the problem is defined as "building the right thing for
the customer" where part of the problem is coming up with "the right thing".
This works well in open plan offices where multiple people can quickly give
input/get feedback. Remote working is probably not a great idea. Most work in
early startups is probably in this category, and that also offers a model to
explain why open plan offices are so common in not-startups-anymore: these
companies are very eager to retain the energy of their early days, and a lot
of that energy is tied to the collaboration of the open plan office, even if
not necessarily suited to the workloads of the more mature company.

Tl;dr: when people speak of being more or less productive under certain
conditions, a lot probably hinges on what kind of work they are doing.

~~~
dhimes
There are also people other than coders in tech companies. I'm next door to a
sales group for a tech company. They do a lot of yelling.

~~~
mseebach
Yes, I agree that co-locating teams that aren't directly collaborating can be
counterproductive. Loud sales teams, obviously, yes, but quieter teams will
also have different patterns of buzz that will be disturbing to unrelated
teams near them.

~~~
dhimes
It's interesting. They get REALLY PISSED at the developers about stuff.

~~~
noir_lord
When I've worked in none-developer companies I've always found the office
staff are fine as long as you don't rub it in their faces that you earn more
and have more freedom.

Well except one place where the people in the office where just horrible
(really toxic culture largly down to the 'office manager' been about one step
short of invading Poland) so I just did as I pleased (wandering in at 10am
wearing flip flops and combat shorts), I was pulling 60hr weeks so the boss
didn't care and she hated me anyway because she had to do payroll and knew
what I was earning, I was knackered from day one on that job.

~~~
dhimes
What's interesting here is the sales group is from a different company. Their
devs are at a different office. So I hear the stuff like a fly on the wall.

What I _don 't_ hear is the root cause of the angst. Is the sales team
overpromising? I don't know. But when something's not ready for their demo it
gets quite loud.

------
loteck
As a technologist working at a company that helps businesses design & build
office space, one item I notice always lacking in conversations about office
space is growth.

The article brushes off growth by suggesting you just open a new office when
you've grown. This suggestion lacks understanding of how growth happens. It's
rarely an instant doubling of headcount. Most organic growth creeps up.

So let me invade your "dream" office with a bit of tough reality. Everywhere
you imagined 3 people, 6 months later, put in 5. Then 4 months later, every
available "single quiet" space, replace with a full time desk. Then in 60 days
put a few part timers and interns out in common area, permanently. Now hold
the line for a couple years while we find affordable space to relocate
everyone to.

Your dream space becomes just another overcrowded, noisy envitonment due to
the realities of cost and efficiency that drive every business.

~~~
tckr
Ok, so I would ask an architect: build me an office that can scale. What would
they answer?

We have shitty offices because there is no solution, so allow me to at least
say: if you want me to work in your office (which I think is not necessary at
all) build me one, that suits my productivity and not the constraints of the
real estate market.

Realistically, as a company you would start with one floor, and once it fills
up, rent another in the same building.

Companies here are doing this and lending more floors then they initially need
and are subletting them, so they can move in later.

We could rent an ware house and build offices out of shipping containers. That
could be done.

~~~
xixixao
An open plan office, starting with 50 desks, can grow to 75 or even 100, by
gradually increasing desk density.

You cannot evict ppl from floors you own on the spot. Growth is hard to
predict.

Hence the dream office will stay a dream unless you are working for a no-
growth company doing the same things all the time.

~~~
xorblurb
An over-crowded open-office is even more productivity destroying than an open-
office of a "normal" density.

Plus, like already said, you can increase density (at least if the target is
not overdensity) in other configurations...

Maybe it's more difficult to over-crowd if you don't have an open-office, but
that's a feature, not a bug.

------
imgabe
I like the concept of the shared 3-person offices. I think that's a good size.
As someone who works professionally designing offices (as an engineer, but
working with architects and interior designers) let me bring up a few
practical considerations.

1\. Accessibility. Offices have to comply with the Americans with Disabilities
act. This includes requirements determining how wide passageways have to be.
So having a wall immediately in front of a door as you enter a room is
problematic. You need enough space between the wall and the door for a person
in a wheelchair to enter and turn around. This creates a lot of wasted space
compared to not having the wall there. Likewise the study corrals in the quite
space room are way too close together, the bathroom doesn't have a handicapped
stall, if you have showers, one or more of the shower stalls will also need to
be accessible.

2\. I'm not sure how well the unisex bathroom would fly. There are code
requirements for number of toilets / urinals required based on occupancy.
Usually it ends up cheaper to separate the bathrooms since some of the
requirements for men can be addressed with urinals, which are going to be
cheaper.

3\. There's a reason most offices don't have a stove. Once you put a stove in
a pantry it becomes a kitchen - a commercial kitchen. This brings a host of
other requirements for automatic fire suppression over the stove. Exhaust
hoods over the range. Makeup air to replace the air pushed out by the range
hood. Grease traps, all sorts of things. Not that it can't be done, it's just
expensive and most companies will not pay for it.

4\. Space requirements - the design is very space inefficient. While it's nice
to have a big room shared by 3 people, it's going to cost a lot in terms of
rent. Offices are leased in terms of $/sf. Every extra square foot that isn't
being used is costing you money. The main reason companies like open offices
is that they can cram a lot of people into a minimum amount of space. This
would be really nice and a wonderful place to work, but it will cost a
fortune.

~~~
wolly
> I like the concept of the shared 3-person offices.

I don't. This seem like a smaller version of an open office. Everyone has
someone in their field of view, plus there's a TV and large glass windows with
couches directly outside of them. That seem like a great way to get a little
bit distracted all the time. Three people in one office is usually much worse
than two people in a smaller office. Since if one person does something
distracting, they are distracting the other two people. And when two people
want to talk about something they are distracting the third person.

What the author describes seem more like "not having to go to meetings" or
"not being bothered by management" than actually being able to work
undisturbed for a predictable period of time.

------
cies
I'm feverishly anticipating for e-ink displays (same stuff as your e-readers),
to be plugged in as second monitors. These displays work "outside", and then
_my_version_of_the_dream_office_ can become reality: working in NATURE.

This of a beautiful garden when many spots: open sun or shady, in a glasshouse
or in an airconned glass covered veranda. And "office workers" just find
themselves a spot!

Besides that I also thing standing desks are a must. This is the least you can
do to mitigate early death by desk-job. On top of that I think that under desk
treadmills are another huge step forward. And a spot where you can do a few
stretching exercises (with a pull-bar) is also not a luxury in my opinion.

~~~
cableshaft
E-ink monitors can't come soon enough. I would love to work outside. I've
dreamed of courtyard office spaces that are open to the outdoors, have trees
and plants everywhere, for well over a decade now.

I have a patio in my front yard at home and sometimes on the weekends I try to
bring my laptop outside to work on my own stuff while my puppy is tethered,
and it's almost impossible to see anything on there, especially if the sun is
out at all. Bring on the e-ink!

------
willyt
Architect here. Distraction is an issue for us as well. My ideal office would
be along these lines too. Mostly it's just construction and rental cost that
prevents it; open plan offices use much less floor space and are simpler for
things like HVAC and fire evacuation. If you want to change this to an
enclosed layout you need to reconfigure all these systems. Most office space
is built speculatively by developers and will be designed to be fitted out as
open plan because of this. Most office space that is built for a specific
company is also built to this standard because it improves the resale value of
the building if it can be sold as generic office space.

~~~
tckr
Yes, that is exactly my point.

We have shitty offices, because they are build to suit the real estate market
not productivity.

But there are examples which are horrible by design, and not because the
property value was important: [https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-
switch/wp/2015/11/30...](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-
switch/wp/2015/11/30/what-these-photos-of-facebooks-new-headquarters-say-
about-the-future-of-work/) (first pic)

~~~
smikhanov
The employer's financial cost of the lost productivity of an average developer
in an open space office is much lower than developers like to think, and much,
much lower than the cost of the office with private rooms. By placing people
in the open space, companies pay almost three times less in office rental
costs ([https://www.mikhanov.com/2015/06/08/open-plan-offices-
creati...](https://www.mikhanov.com/2015/06/08/open-plan-offices-creativity-
and-programming-429)).

In other words, unless you're Sebastian Thrun, Chris Lattner, Lars Rasmussen,
Cliff Click or Guido van Rossum, your company doesn't care (and rightly so)
about your lost productivity because it just simply doesn't matter.

Gentlemen whose names listed above, I am certain, can have any office they
want.

~~~
xorblurb
Linked post entry is complete bullshit:

1\. the author's estimate for non-commoditized software development is
ridiculously low (0.1%)

2\. even then, those 0.1% are at the risk of not getting private/shared
offices. Do you want that for people working on medical devices or other fun
critical stuff now embedded in your everyday life? Well, too late. They are
working in shitty environment right now, I know that because I'm one of them.
Maybe one of the reason they are, is because a "manager" read that kind of
blog post which comfort them to be happy to do absurd economies.

3\. you can have shared office room with multiple people per room. Even
somehow big shared office room, if some trade-off are needed (although around
10 people should be a real max, otherwise above that there is no real
difference with a big open-office floor.

4\. if you want to do an economic analysis, even if the surface hypothetically
needs to triple (which I don't believe for a sec, see above), you need to
compare lost revenue per developer (or other interesting figures in case of
not yet profitable) -- _and_ think about non-linear factors -- to the cost of
extra space renting (mostly linear). "Pay[ing] almost three times less in
office rental costs" (which again, I don't believe) is not a business goal.

------
GuiA
Cool post. A few issues I see:

\- 30 people team?! I find 10-12 or so to be the max size before things
descend into chaos

\- 3 person office seem like a wrong compromise to me. If you want to optimize
for focused time, individual offices are best. 2 people offices can be
alright, but you'll necessarily have moments when someone comes to talk to
your coworker for 30 minutes about blablabla. If you want to optimize for in
person collaboration, pick a studio/lab like layout for the whole team
(topping out at 10-12). But 3 people is just an odd middle of the road
approach that's too awkward in practice, in my experience.

\- The wall covering the door is a good idea in theory, but in reality it
would probably mean distraction every time someone knocks at the door. How
does the visitor see whether the person they want to see is in or not without
entering and potentially distracting everyone?

\- Bathroom stalls would work if they were fully closed stalls, European
style. If this is in the US, then it'd get really awkward as you hear loud
farts next to you and recognize the shoes of Jerry from accounting. Individual
bathrooms would be much better.

\- Those "quiet time" seats seem awfully tight, and the library inconveniently
narrow.

~~~
tckr
> 30 people team

If it's a product team, you can easily have a company with 4-5 teams (design,
development, marketing/sales, support, content) so it's not to uncommon to
have a team grow to that size. And this size is still manageable, if they are
not all doing the same.

For me 30 is the max, I prefer it smaller, too.

> 3 person office

For me that's the ideal tag team: a junior, a medior and a senior working hand
in hand is great. In general I find my to be the most agile in teams of three.
3 opinions are a choice, and you can quickly find input if you don't have to
stand up to move.

 _If_ I'm in the office I want to use that opportunity to be in close contact.

> The wall covering the door

You can peak through the window left and right of the door to see everyone in
the room.

> Bathroom stalls

Good point, I'll just update the design (similar to the shower)

> Library

Yes, you could be right.

~~~
carlob
> a junior, a medior and a senior

first time I hear the word medior. It's a fun neologism, but it's technically
very wrong in Latin: senior and junior are comparatives (older and younger),
so medior would be more medium?

~~~
tckr
We use it in Germany quite regulary.

It's the experience level in the middle between senior and junior.

~~~
_nalply
Perhaps you live near Netherlands? Here in a German speaking part of
Switzerland I never heard that word.

~~~
tckr
Rhein-Main region.

~~~
bshimmin
I work with an English guy who's been in Amsterdam for a few years now and he
often says "medior". He usually corrects himself to "middleweight" after a few
seconds.

------
Domenic_S
You have to have meeting rooms. People always say you don't, but you always
do. Where do you do sprint planning? Project brainstorming? Private meetings
(with actual privacy needed, like reviews)?

~~~
tckr
No dedicated meeting room? Yes, meetings should be reduced to an absolute
minimum and can be held in one of the offices or in the stand-up area. This
makes them public and everyone easily has the chance to join in. The same is
true for client meetings, which in my experience rarely take place at the
office if you are an agency, anyway. So, no dedicated meeting rooms necessary.

Sprint planning: in the town hall if the sprint involves most of the team, or
in on of the offices. A three people office can accommodate a small sprint
team of 6-7 people.

Project brainstorming: In the town-hall, in the kitchen, maybe outside when
taking a walk?

Private meetings: In most cases, the privacy of the corner seating areas will
be enough, but I think most of the times at least small office will be vacant,
because not everybody is in the office all the time.

------
BatFastard
LOTs of things I like about this office layout.

What I would add, black out blinds on all outer facing windows. I don't see a
refrigerator or a coffee machine/water/drinks.

What I don't like.

I would say rather then a white board, do a white wall.

Is the TV screen really needed? Its so easy to just teleconference on your
monitor.

Stand-up room needs to white board space for sure! Maybe use a projector
instead of a the monitors?

Cant say I care for the bathroom RIGHT next to the kitchen, personally I would
prefer those on opposite sides of the room.

I think the wall leading into each office takes up a ton of space, and adds
little value. How about a sliding barn door style door instead.

Last and most controversial. Get rid of the laptops and give everyone a
desktop machine. Create a laptop pool for people who want one when out of the
office. Use VMs to get your environments on them quickly. Plus I LOVE two
large monitors, but I do a lot of UX work. Code on the portrait monitor,
browser in landscape.

Thx for sharing!

~~~
bigzen
Okay you have my interest. Could you expand on why you would like to see
desktops with laptops for a VM? Would the laptop borrowing happen on a night
by night basis? Wouldn't you expect some employees to always take the laptops
home. Genuinely curious as to why you think this would be better. (more cost
effective, better office env, etc.)

~~~
tolien
Not the OP, but:

> Wouldn't you expect some employees to always take the laptops home

Maybe, but there's two issues here - they're either taking them for personal
use, or they're taking them to do (additional) work on. In the majority of
cases, you probably don't want to encourage either of these (in the same way
you wouldn't encourage someone to stay in the office till 3 am).

There's probably a group (on-call, not always in the office, etc etc.) who
would be better served by a docking station but speaking from the experience
of working at a place where _everyone_ gets a laptop, there's a significant
majority who have either never or very rarely needed to take a computer out of
the office in years but took the more expensive/more difficult to repair/more
likely to fail hit anyway.

~~~
TheCoelacanth
There are other reasons to take a laptop home. For instance, at my workplace,
the night before snow is predicted, nearly every single person will want to
take their laptop home so that they can work from home the next day if it
snows. If your laptop pool is smaller than the number of employees, there
won't be enough laptops to go around.

~~~
BatFastard
I just can't imagine a software developer not owning a computer. Its a basic
tool of your craft. I always have my own tools. An employer might prefer that
I use theirs at the work place, but I dont depend on it for my livelihood.

~~~
TheCoelacanth
Most companies don't want their IP floating around on computers that they
don't control

~~~
cuddlybacon
In addition, a lot of people don't want to workify their computer.

------
yakshaving_jgt
One sad thing that this article (I think inadvertently) illuminates is how
hypersensitive Americans are about mundane parts of life like using the
bathroom.

Markus' office design works over here in Europe because [I'm fairly certain]
his crowd invests heavily in a healthy social culture at work, as opposed to a
nervously litigious (i.e. immediately defer to HR) culture as is so common in
the US.

Personally, I think Markus' office design is excellent. What I would change
however, is the television setup. I've been 100% remote for most of my career,
so I'm always the guy on the television. I would much prefer to be on
everyone's screens individually like a little StarCraft briefing room.

Some benefits:

\- sound quality is better

\- less chance of audio feedback

\- visual cues (like when someone wants to interject) are easier to pick up on

\- screen sharing is usually easier

\- difference in latency is less pronounced

~~~
tckr
Yes, I agree. This is absolutely working so much better. I'm working remote
for many years and I always enjoy it, when people are using headsets and their
individual devices.

Primarily the TVs are used for sharing screens, and team metrics. So they are
mostly used for data, rather then communication.

------
stevesearer
One modern office concept readers who like OP's concept might find interesting
is at the company zeb in Munich, designed by Evolution Design:
[https://officesnapshots.com/2016/10/26/zeb-offices-
munich/](https://officesnapshots.com/2016/10/26/zeb-offices-munich/)

~~~
tckr
Yes, looks like they put very much effort into having enough quiet, secluded
desks and a lot of meeting room sizes but still maintaining a very flexible,
open-floor plan.

------
snegu
Definitely a place I would like to work. Only thing it's missing is a place
for nursing moms to pump (and an in-house daycare if I'm dreaming).

~~~
lj3
You mean like at Veridian Dynamics? :) Molding the children of today into the
workers of tomorrow!

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2SLFlNH0TLY](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2SLFlNH0TLY)

~~~
btown
Better Off Ted is such an incredible, underrated comedy, so tongue-in-cheek it
hurts. Anyone who's ever felt under the thumb of a corporate environment (or,
for that matter, wants to know the bullet they dodged) will find something to
love. It's on Netflix.

------
mattpratt
I recently finished _Deep Work_ by Cal Newport. In the book he discusses a
workplace concept designed by David Dewane called the "Eudaimonia Machine".
This workspace has multiple sections you progress through linearly, slowly
moving towards independent, distraction free, personal chambers where you
perform your most productive, thoughtful, deepest work.

My dream office would have more rooms like this!

~~~
tckr
Yes!

I imagined having a floor where people arrange themselves based on lighting
preferences, so the farther you go into the floor the lower the lights are.
You can't have the lights brighter then the previous office.

~~~
mjevans
If only our monitors were good enough to follow that trend... instead of
defaulting to brightness that tries to battle the sun at noon.

------
Kiro
Am I the only one who actually likes open offices? I like the vibrant feeling
and never have any problems with distractions. I just put my headphones on and
zone in.

~~~
dasmoth
You're definitely not the only one.

Here's a question though: in a workplace with lots of space that's able to
offer a choice of a small private office or a well-set-up desk in an open
office for every developer, would you still choose the open space? And would
you be comfortable seeing people who are junior to you disappearing into
private offices?

~~~
reitanqild
I chose to sit in the hot equipment room for months at some place because i
needed quiet and some people just didn't get it.

Now I have my final day in a open floor plan. For the second time in my life
it has worked well, -IMO mostly because everyone is really nice and busily
working on their own stuff.

------
williamle8300
This is awesome. Thanks for putting in the time to put this together.

I love the 3-man office. Personally, I would just make it a 1-man office. I'm
a very loud thinker and easily distracted so I really can't have anyone in the
room when I'm hacking.

~~~
douche
The 3-person office would be just about enough for one person. Get rid of the
interior-facing windows. Make sure the walls and doors are sound-proof.
Combine the three desks into one large surface that's big enough to actually
work at. Get a beefy workstation, and a quad 27" monitor array. Make sure the
lights for the office are on their own circuit, so they can't be turned on by
anyone else on the floor. Bookcases.

------
Pica_soO
Open floor in the center, lots of single person office rooms at the outer
ring, with the ability to switch any time.

------
ensiferum
My previous office where I worked is one of the best ever.

\- office rooms (usually 1 team or half a team per room, about 3-4ppl)

\- electric tables for everyone (so you can work either seated or standing)

\- very nice kitchen, 2 * cooking facilities, 3 fridges, espresso machine

\- sauna + showers + lockers and towels

\- laundry facilities

\- music room with bass, guitars, eletric drums, keyboards. also combined as
VR room

\- games lounge with big ass screen and some consoles and PC with proper
"rally setup"

\- big library with sofas

\- quiet room with 2 beds

Additionally:

\- occupational nurse comes to the office once a month

\- physiotherapist comes to the office once a week for some exercise

\- Monday morning starts with a common breakfast

and of course some very smart people!

~~~
tckr
Wow. Sauna <3

Where was this?

~~~
Sammi
Sounds like Finland :)

~~~
tckr
I had the same thought!

------
kinos
I feel like the solo zones would get monopolized by people that like being
solo until necessary.

------
mynameishere
Traditional closed offices, conference rooms for group work, and multiple non-
shared unisex bathrooms (exactly like the kind in a typical house--how
innovative!)

That's the perfect office, and I know because I've worked in it and every
other variation.

~~~
r00fus
How many houses have unisex bathrooms with stalls? I know it was popular on
Ally McBeal, but how many of these exist? Or am I just sheltered and
unworldly?

~~~
Klockan
I think he meant unisex bathrooms without stalls. That is each bathroom
contains its own toilet and sink and there is a normal door you can close to
it without any gaps. Every office and every school outside of US I have been
to have had those.

Personally I think it is really strange that people who earn six figures still
has to shit next to each other with almost no privacy.

------
Fifer82
"which also brings everyone together during lunch time"

Fuck that. I am out of there for some air, a walk and peace.

------
silveira
Really cool office. I like that there is a lot of windows. I imagine they
could be closed if you want less sunlight/glare.

I like the unisex bathroom. The majority of bathrooms are already unisex, as
everyone have unisex restrooms at home. We could avoid a lot of complications
by having them in the offices as well. Another good thing of your model is not
having the gap in the stalls that is so common in the US. I also loved having
a shower. One thing, why do you need the window between the bathroom and the
kitchen? I don't like the idea of everyone in the kitchen looking who is going
to the bathroom.

One thing that would bother me working in this office is that it looks like
almost every computer screen has a window behind it or is facing a common
area. I don't like that, personally.

The one-on-one meeting area, I think they would be better in a place with a
whiteboard and more acoustic isolation and privacy. It could be used for
interviewing a candidate too.

The stand-up room could lose one window in favor of a whiteboard.

------
dbg31415
On the whole, certainly an improvement over any open-floor plan.

But... some points made me cringe.

> The unisex bathroom has a separate shower for those that come to the office
> by bike.

I do not want a unisex bathroom. I've had a unisex bathroom... at work and in
college and I don't want to go back to that again. Unisex bathrooms create way
too many awkward situations... (And also, I wouldn't put the bathroom next to
the kitchen... that's just odd.)

> The kitchen is very well equipped with a large stove, because cooking is a
> great social activity, and you can’t beat healthy, self-cooked lunch.

I don't want there to be a kitchen at work. Truth be told, I don't even want
there to be a microwave at work... this is the source of the bad smells the
author was complaining about. These things never get cleaned right. I've
worked for a lot of agencies, including some really nice places, and unless
they have full-time custodial staff going around cleaning up after you, the
kitchen will always be disgusting. And the smell... encouraging people to cook
at work I think is a horrible idea. If I had a kitchen... I certainly wouldn't
put the stove against an interior wall, I'd want that to be vented outside
with a strong range hood fan.

> No dedicated meeting room? Yes, meetings should be reduced to an absolute
> minimum and can be held in one of the offices or in the stand-up area. This
> makes them public and everyone easily has the chance to join in.

I'd want one or two dedicated meeting rooms. If only for interviews, or staff
disciplinary meetings / HR meetings where it wouldn't be appropriate to have
it in someone's office... I don't need a massive conference room, but a couple
of 12x12 rooms with round tables and some white boards would be nice.

~~~
justinpombrio
> Unisex bathrooms create way too many awkward situations...

Fortunately this awkwardness can be avoided by having separate sex bathrooms,
because people of the same sex are never attracted to one another.

> And also, I wouldn't put the bathroom next to the kitchen... that's just
> odd.

For plumbing reasons, things that require water tend to be near to one
another. Ever noticed that bathrooms are always above one another, even in
buildings with otherwise complicated floor plans? At least, I assume that's
why.

~~~
coldtea
> _Fortunately this awkwardness can be avoided by having separate sex
> bathrooms, because people of the same sex are never attracted to one
> another._

Far less often, by biological imperative, so yes. It can be, if not avoided,
diminished.

------
tckr
A lot of commenters wished for single person rooms. As a remote worker, I'd
say: if I want to work solo (for some time), why go to the office in the first
place? I'd stay at home or go to a coffee shop.

I could imagine having a second floor, that has more privacy features: single
person offices, rooms for private conversations, power napping, nursing mums,
yoga.

What do you think?

------
TylerE
A microwave creates enough nasty smells, and he wants a full kitchen?

~~~
petepete
So long as it's separate and ventilated, a kitchen would be fine.

I've worked in places where people can't be trusted to wash their mugs and
cutlery, though, so it wouldn't work everywhere.

------
teddyh
I always thought that Fog Creek Software’s “Bionic Office” was interesting:

[https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2003/09/24/bionic-
office/](https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2003/09/24/bionic-office/)

------
cyberferret
Nice designs - I like them and would certainly consider some of those ideas in
any future office fitout of mine.

However, I am unsure about those walls just inside the doorways that act as a
buffer. Why not just have a door (with a glass window, the wall with the door
doesn't already have a window)?

That way, the team working in the room can simply close the door when they do
not want to be disturbed, or open it when they don't mind visitors. The window
still lets others look in to peek at what they are doing, and the non window
space on the door can still be used to put up signs, posters etc. as they
would on the wall section.

~~~
tckr
I wanted to have a little visual blocker, too. Just a glass door is not
enough. Visitors can peek through the windows to see if a person is available.

And I would add a red / green LED to the door knob which signals if you are
free to enter.

The wall inside also serves as a stand for the (heavy) flatscreen and has a
coat hanger. I think it adds a nice cosy touch to the office, you you come in
an e.g. take off your shoes.

~~~
cyberferret
Fair enough. The fact that the wall has multiple purposes is pretty neat. The
concept is growing on my now.

------
masukomi
We had 2 ovens in our last office. They got used once that i can remember. No-
one wants to deal with bringing in all the materials to cook an oven meal and
no-one wants to deal with all the cleaning afterwards... I'm not bringing in
my pans, knives, cutting boards, spices, vegetables, meats, starches etc. to
work, to cook one meal. No-one else is either. So you've got a large expensive
hole in the wall that no-one uses. Get a second microwave instead. ;)

------
throwaway41597
Good effort! Although you can't please everyone.

I think you should mention cost. The rectangle is about 20m x 16m = 320m2 or
about 10,7m2/person. And the ceiling is about 3.5m.

~~~
tckr
Yes, right. I have no idea what typical offices have per person?

~~~
chillydawg
I currently py about £500 per month per head for serviced office space. Very
small, though, with six of us and could easily grow to 8 or 9 in the space so
the cost drops.

~~~
throwaway41597
And how many square meters ? Do you find it enough ?

------
dyeje
I like it a lot. Some tweaks I'd suggest:

1\. Alternate configurations of the offices to handle growth. People are gonna
get added, it's inevitable so you may as well make the best of it.

2\. 2 - 4 meeting rooms. They're just a must. Customer / contractor calls,
interviews, client meetings, private meetings (nobody wants to get fired in
front of their peers), etc.

------
buro9
I worked on the Cloudflare London office with a few other colleagues and an
external architect firm who were tasked with making it a reality.

The proposed dream office would not work because:

* Teams are not always 3 or 6 and they grow and contract constantly

* Unisex bathrooms are fine for guys, not for anyone else

* 1 shower is never enough

* The airflow and temperature hasn't been thought about

* Growth hasn't been thought about

Also, in the comments someone suggested a proper stove in the kitchen. Let me
dampen that immediately, fire regulations and other rules probably state that
you cannot have an open flame or other heating devices outside of a very small
selection or well-controlled items. You also probably are not fitting the
electrics for this.

Unless your company size is very stable (WRT growth), you are going to have an
open plan office.

It is the only way to deal with "fit more desks here", "change the layout like
this", "that team is now growing faster than this team, swap their locations
around".

Things we focused on:

* If we're going to have open plan (urgh), can we make it visually organic and not a battery farm (mis-align things, introduce space, randomness, natural materials, etc)

* If we're going to have open spaces, can we control the lighting so that it is flooded with natural light, we have zero strip lights and each area has control of their lighting (big windows, with blinds, dim lights over work areas, desk lighting people can control, LED strips for even lighting over walkways)

* To keep it habitable, we pump far more regular air than most places would, and we only aircon a little when it really is outside of a comfortable range

* If we're going to have communal spaces can we have them cosy and quiet (read "A Pattern Language", we purchased a lot of old Danish furniture and furnished small spaces like a little living rooms, very comfy)

* If we're going to have a town hall space / auditorium, can we limit the noise or impact on the rest of the environment

* If we're going to have a shared kitchen, can we make sure people can sit with most of their team (bench tables beat small tables, as the latter constrain you to 6 people and a team may be 7)

But it is an office, there is high growth. In the current London space we
started with 60 people and now have just shy of 100, and it is the same space
and we're not yet sitting on top of each other. That is only achievable by
having open plan and not filling in space with desks until you have to, and by
moving people around when you need to.

The ideal office shown... would be lovely. But to have that, you cannot really
have any growth, and I bet the air would stagnate in that space pretty
quickly.

Things we got wrong:

* Not enough of the right sized meeting rooms. We put in 4 x 2 people, 2 x 4 people, 1 x 8 person. Later had to add 2 x 6 people and another 1 x 8 person.

* We are starting to feel the noise levels, this really is about how sales grows fastest at a certain point in the life of a company and sales are inherently noisy by comparison... we've moved engineering away but this still means some staff who are not in sales are impacted by sales noise.

Things we got right:

* The flow around the office is really nice, people interact without being forced together or too far apart

* 3 showers for 100 people is enough that no-one waits long even when a quarter of staff are cycling in the height of Summer because we don't dictate a start hour to all staff (only those covering shifts)

What you build is according to needs, but growth dictates almost everything.
You may not even _stay_ in your new fancy office for more than a couple of
years if your growth is that good, and this is going to dictate your spend.

Ultimately for it to make sense to design an office, the amortized costs need
to be competitive with hiring space from Regus or something. If you've gone
too far down the path of a design that involves putting up internal walls and
spaces that need ripping down to handle growth, then the project is probably
doomed to fail.

~~~
buro9
Oh, and sound.

Sound is so hard to model, control, reason about.

Every assumption you make about how sound works within a space will be wrong,
and small spaces like meeting rooms are even harder to get right.

------
jlebrech
what about open plan but they give you ear buds in the morning and you can
only communicate via memo or in a meeting room.

~~~
tckr
Open plan would work, if people would be cautious about the noise they are
creating.

But people don't.

------
amelius
It eludes me why all the images are taken from above, a viewpoint from which
no user will ever actually see the office ...

~~~
tckr
You can use the viewer in FPS mode (click on the feet icon).

------
Arizhel
This has a lot of problems.

First, legal problems: you can't have a unisex multi-stall bathroom in the
USA. I'm not sure if it's actually illegal (it probably is in many states),
but it'll never fly even if it is. Honestly, what you really need is a male
restroom that's about 5 times the size of the female restroom. Again, that
won't fly politically, but practically it makes sense because there's so few
women in software. Better yet is to just ditch the shared bathrooms
altogether: they're nasty and smelly, and it's inhuman to have to sit on the
pot next to someone with only a crappy divider which doesn't even go to the
floor so you can see their feet and their pants around their ankles. You also
have to worry about Idahoans playing footsie with you in there. Whoever came
up with this idea has serious mental issues, and somehow it's the norm almost
everywhere. Instead, just have separate 1-person unisex bathrooms, and put
little showers in at least 2 of them for the cyclists.

The walled offices with giant windows: these windows are much too large on the
inside. The whole reason for a walled office is to have privacy, and you're
taking it away with those windows. Also, you're distracting the people sitting
inside because they'll see all the people walking by their office, since that
office will most likely open into a high-traffic corridor. Make the windows
much smaller, maybe enough to see the top of the head of someone sitting
inside and that's about it. Or just get rid of them altogether, or maybe have
frosted glass. Windows on the other side are nice, but there's only so much
space along the outside wall of the building, so who gets to sit here? Likely
only managers.

The dedicated "quiet alone-time" places are great, but there aren't nearly
enough of them. They're going to get monopolized, while all those "team
spaces" are going to get ignored mostly. How about just having only the quiet
1-person places, and just one or two of the team spaces for the people who
really like that or in case something comes up where people want to work as a
team temporarily?

The library isn't a bad idea, but it's not nearly large enough.

The "townhall" is a massive waste of space. You don't need daily stand-ups,
that's a patch for lousy management. The building should have a large meeting
room shared by all departments for events where you need everyone present.

Honestly, we'd all be better off if we could go back to the way offices were
in the 70s or 80s, minus the smoking inside part.

I do like his illustrations though: it reminds me of playing Duke Nukem 3D.

~~~
repiret
> First, legal problems: you can't have a unisex multi-stall bathroom in the
> USA. I'm not sure if it's actually illegal (it probably is in many states),
> but it'll never fly even if it is.

It is illegal in the US, see 29CFR1910.141(c): "...toilet rooms separate for
each sex, shall be provided in all places of employment [...] Where toilet
rooms will be occupied by no more than one person at a time, can be locked
from the inside, and contain at least one water closet, separate toilet rooms
for each sex need not be provided."

[https://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/CFR-2016-title29-vol5/xml/CFR-...](https://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/CFR-2016-title29-vol5/xml/CFR-2016-title29-vol5-sec1910-141.xml)

~~~
aninhumer
That sounds like it's fine as long as you have fully enclosed lockable stalls?
(i.e. "toilet rooms")

------
mdip
Interesting thoughts and I haven't personally formed an opinion about where I
stand on this one, quite yet.

I worked at home for almost ten years until two months ago when I started a
job at a tech company at their main office. They have the oft-maligned[0]
open-office layout, which coming from a work-at-home coding job, should have
been _really_ painful. Their approach, however, has worked out really well for
me for a few reasons:

0/ Staff understands the need for concentration when coding. _Almost_ everyone
here is a software developer, so we're all respectful of one another. I was
told on _day one_ that if someone has headphones in, it's best to instant
message them rather than walk up because there's an unwritten rule that
"headphones" means "I'm concentrating". I actually wonder how many folks have
headphones in with nothing on -- I use my active noise-cancelling cans
regularly with nothing but the noise cancelling turned on because it gives
solid, simulating, silence. But the thing of it is, the place isn't loud or
overly distracting.

1/ There are a number of meeting rooms and couches throughout the office,
located in quiet places, with no "rules" about use other than that scheduled
meetings win over impromptu for meeting rooms. People are encouraged to work
wherever they're comfortable and I prefer to sit on a couch with my feet up
since while I was working at home I tended to work on my couch in the living
room or in my bed rather than in my office[1]. The couches are placed in areas
that are offset from the general office area, so they're quieter, as well. I
simply don't sit at my assigned desk and nobody cares (really, it's
encouraged). My desk is also located on a side of the office where lights are
turned off because those who sit over there prefer it[1].

2/ They have a number of other alternative workstations set-up, like
unassigned standing desks (with bar-stools for those who want to sit at a
standing desk...). This allows me to switch things up when I'm in a rut and
need an environment change to inspire me.

I thought it was going to be a lot more painful to adjust from working at home
to working in an open-office environment. I'm finding I like it quite a bit,
though. At the end of the day most companies have two choices for office
layout -- open or cube farm. The reason is that cubicle walls are considered
furniture under tax code, whereas offices are classified differently. This
makes cube-walls far more cost effective than "real walls" due to the
increased time that it takes for the latter to be allowed to be written off.
Having done the cramped cube-farm arrangement, I'll take open. Cubicles are
the worst of both worlds -- they feel like working in a (small) closet, and
when laid out the way they typically are, they destroy ones ability to
navigate an office, block natural light and make a place feel more prison-
like. Open offices kill privacy and negatively affect concentration but allow
light to flow and make the office feel big and ... open ... which I am finding
I like quite a bit. Plus, it's a lot easier to ride the one-wheel skateboards
around the office when there's fewer obstructions.

[0] Oft-maligned by me, specifically. I wrote regularly about my hatred of
this kind of office but now having spent a few months working in one, I am
enjoying it quite a bit provided a few features are present.

[1] I casually mentioned my dislike for the darker side of the office to one
of the company founders who introduced himself while I was working on the
couch in the kitchen. Before I could get the sentence out was told "Oh, just
move your desk!". I haven't done so because I have no need. Sometimes I want
to work in the dark (it's not actually "dark", it's just not lit by interior
lighting -- our office is pretty bright due to the wealth of windows and
natural light during the day), so I troll back there when I feel like it.
Because I can work in so many different places in the office, it's irrelevant
where my desk is.

------
preordained
This is a nice thought exercise...but that this is often treated like one of
the great tribulations of our time as developers...it's a bit pathetic. I'm
not saying things can't be better, but as a working people, we're not exactly
oppressed.

~~~
droopyEyelids
How could you take the time to complain about this article while there are
children starving in Yemen?

Being given the choice to read someone's thoughts on improving people's lives
isn't exactly oppressing you.

~~~
preordained
It's an issue developers, or hacker news, harps on all the time. You would
think we are working in some unregulated third world factory conditions. Most
of us work in a comfortable office with plenty of amenities. Yes, the open
trend is less conducive to work we do. Noted. I just feel fixating on this
stuff and (IMO) exaggerating how vile and terrible the average working
conditions for us are makes us look needy and entitled as a community. My .02

I'm just honestly disturbed how much this "issue" seems to resonate with
hacker news. I could leave well enough alone, but I had an opinion I wanted to
share.

