
ICE says international students must take in-person classes to remain in the US - theBashShell
https://www.theverge.com/2020/7/6/21315168/ice-immigration-international-students-universities-deportation
======
HeyZuess
Bye to some of the 40 odd Billion dollars which flows into the economy from
these students. While the US closes their borders, other countries will be
willing to take these students in.

~~~
cheezegrayter
The universities are doing more economic damage to our youth than they are
bringing in to our current account. The universities need major reform, we
should possibly be confiscating their endowments. Demand from wealthy
international students abroad is one factor driving up tuition, which puts our
middle class deeper and deeper in debt.

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devilsenigma
This doesn't help. Not everyone has access to the same infrastructure in their
home town/country. Let alone the fact that a class at $X AM/PM in the US may
be in the late evenings, late nights in their home country.

~~~
black_puppydog
I think we'll have to consider the possibility that ICE are not out to help
_anyone_ really.

~~~
flowersjeff
Correct.

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actuator
Duplicate of
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23751931](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23751931)

@dang can you merge this?

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laretluval
Expect universities to fight this hard. Fees from international students make
up a huge portion of their budget.

~~~
belltaco
How will they fight this? Republicans in Congress are against legal
immigration so nothing will pass Congress. The right wing hates colleges and
universities because they're primarily made up of liberals, look at any Fox
News and Brietbart articles.

~~~
ghthor
Saying that Republicans in Congress are against legal immigration is a lie.

~~~
yoav
Are you familiar with all the immigration bans though, and what republicans
say and do?

They’re pretty thoroughly against legal immigration.

~~~
splintercell
Believe me, Democrats give zero shits about legal immigration too.

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paul_f
If the reason for the Visa in the first place is to allow students to attend
classes, and there are no classes to attend, what is the problem with this?

Seems if a University has no in person classes, most all students will stay
home, avoid high priced dorms, dining plans, etc., and campus will be empty
anyway.

~~~
handoflixue
> If the reason for the Visa in the first place is to allow students to attend
> classes, and there are no classes to attend, what is the problem with this?

If this had been announced in March, I'd feel very differently. College
usually starts in September, about two months away.

Sure, two months isn't an unreasonable time for finding new housing - but
usually when you're moving you've got a lot more warning than that.

Add the complication that they need to relocate to another country, which will
include international airfare. If any of them own anything that doesn't fit in
a carry-on, they now have to look in to international shipping or replacing
it.

And, again, they only have two months to do this. I usually start planning
international travel 3-6 months in advance so that I can get a good price on
tickets.

~~~
Fjolsvith
With airline ticket prices dropping, they shouldn't be hit as hard.

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stu2b50
Note that this FORCES Int students to come back to the US and attend at least
some in person classes. Having your student visa revoked doesn't just mean you
can't be in the US, you just can't be a student at a US institution without
that visa.

So it's more than just bad time zones.

~~~
unishark
I not sure I follow? They have to come back or else they lose their visa, that
they don't need because they aren't coming back?

They don't need a visa to take online classes from overseas.

~~~
belltaco
Article says this:

>Meanwhile, international students who remain in their home countries will
only be permitted to maintain their “Active status” and take an online
courseload remotely if their school is online-only.

~~~
unishark
Meaning they lose the visa which they don't need because they aren't in the
country?

I suppose there may be some delays in getting a new visa later due to the
backlog, but I wouldn't say the danger of such a hassle equates to being
forced to return to a country undergoing a pandemic. In fact one big reason we
are doing online and hybrid online/in-person courses in the fall is because we
expect delays international students getting visas to come/return.

~~~
nybble41
> Meaning they lose the visa which they don't need because they aren't in the
> country?

No, they still need the visa even if they are out of the country taking
online-only classes. However, they can't _keep_ the visa unless the
_university_ is online-only (including classes they aren't enrolled in).

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tehjoker
What about students that want to avoid crowded lecture halls but have in
person study groups with a few friends? This authoritarian action is extremely
heavy handed and forecloses the possibilities that genuine students might have
to protect themselves, educate themselves and others, and help protect
society.

~~~
sukilot
Those people can stay at the US for their non-online only education, as long
as the study groups are sanctioned by the school.

~~~
tehjoker
I don't know what your college experience was like, but for me often the
informal aspects and hitting the books was more useful than formal lecture
classes (labs are a different story ofc). Tutoring by grad students / teaching
assistants was good too. University sanction is a high bar for something that
is organic.

The reason for this is somewhat obvious: people don't retain and model complex
information easily from just listening. They have to process it, interact with
problems, and talk about it with people.

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foxyv
So in other words, universities will end up adding a classroom that students
visit once or twice to cover ICE requirements?

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pl0x
We will welcome these students in our Canadian universities.

~~~
zelphirkalt
From what I heard Canada is one of the countries, where it is difficult to
immigrate. I heard, that you need to prove, that you are doing a job, which
could not be done by a Canadian, who is seeking a job, for example.

Is any of that true? How is it for students? Can they simply go to Canada
without such requirements?

~~~
jogjayr
Not at all. Canada is very welcoming to people and particularly values the
following attributes: young, well-educated especially in hot disciplines such
as software, fluent in English or French (bonus for both), Canada-educated,
previously worked in Canada. The requirements are straightforward and the
process is transparent. You can find out where you might stand right here:
[https://www.cic.gc.ca/english/immigrate/skilled/crs-
tool.asp](https://www.cic.gc.ca/english/immigrate/skilled/crs-tool.asp)

Edit: That's a weird thing to be downvoted over.

~~~
splintercell
You're trying to portray these requirements as transparent and easy but they
are incredibly hard to be met by most people yeah, especially compared to the
requirements for American Immigration system.

The only reason why America is hard to immigrate to is because far too many
people in line ahead of you. You can immigrate to America without being
educated, be able to speak English, to have ever worked anywhere.

I know a Canadian girl who wanted her American boyfriend to move to Canada but
it was incredibly hard because of Canadian immigration process requirements,
so instead she moved to the US.

The Canadian job requirement is essentially a prerequisite for anyone to be
able to hire you in Canada because Canadians are very risk-averse (what other
Canadians told me), there are stories and stories on quora about Indian
immigrants getting 4-5 interviews in a day, the day they qualify for the tn1
Visa as opposed to essentially being unemployed during the time they were in
Canada.

All the things your listing are paper requirements, but they don't match the
reality, as I'm experiencing with trying to get my own brother to Canada.

~~~
manuelabeledo
I don't know if you have had experiences with the US immigration system, but
let me tell you, mine don't match what you said.

I'm an EU citizen who came to the US five years ago.

Not only I had to prove _several times_ that I have a bachelor's degree, but
each time I had to apply, either for a visa, the renewal of such visa, or any
other USCIS related process, I had to submit:

1\. Updated documents about my marriage, my children, and my criminal, work,
and financial records from my home country. These haven't changed in the past
five years, yet I still have to provide them.

2\. Several, lawyer-approved, questionnaires, both filled by myself and my
company.

3\. My company has to pay a hefty processing fee. Once I get to deposit the
documents in person, I have to pay a non refundable "fraud prevention" fee of
~$500, on top of the $120 fee _per person_, just to hand my documents to the
consulate official. This happens every two to three years.

Nothing had to do with people "ahead" of me.

Obviously, no chance to immigrate if you don't have a job lined up in the US
already. Failure to fulfill any of these requirements would void the
application, which takes ~4 months.

Seasonal and agricultural workers _may_ be able to immigrate to the US for a
few months, usually six to twelve. Other than that, unless you are a
celebrity, or a Nobel prize recipient, or an Olympic athlete, or are willing
to invest $500,000 to create who knows how many jobs in the US, I can't think
of any other way to immigrate that is not job or study related.

From what I understand, Canada does have a more transparent process, where the
requirements are closer to "are you professionally qualified to work on these
jobs?" and "would you be able to integrate?". The US system is designed mostly
to filter out people who cannot afford it, and both the multiple processes,
and volatile nature of the USCIS, derive in many qualified immigrants getting
kicked out of the country just because something changes at the worst possible
moment.

~~~
splintercell
I have been through multiple H1B applications, a Green Card application, and
right now going through Naturalization process, on the other end, I am getting
my brother through Canadian process.

Regarding the points you made, all these things are applicable for Canadian
process too (my brother is stuck trying to prove the documents and degree
because of the lockdown), its' just that in American system there are far too
many people ahead of you this is why it takes much longer.

You're lucky that you have the skillset (and age) Canada values, otherwise it
would be extremely difficult for you to migrate to Canada (whereas it isn't
that much of a problem for US, unless you are in the unlucky line, i.e. China,
India or Mexico).

~~~
manuelabeledo
> its' just that in American system there are far too many people ahead of you
> this is why it takes much longer

Again, not entirely correct. In fact, there are several steps during these
processes where applicants have to literally just wait for months, e.g.
prevailing wage while applying for a green card.

> whereas it isn't that much of a problem for US, unless you are in the
> unlucky line, i.e. China, India or Mexico

There are only three groups of people who have it relatively easy, nowadays,
to get a long term visa in the US: the O group (individuals with an
extraordinary ability), the E-1 and E-2 groups (traders, investors), and the R
group (religious workers). Anyone outside those is either currently banned
from enter the country, e.g. H1-B visa holders without an entry stamp in their
passports, or are subjected to extremely long waits to get their visas. And
while there is a factor about nationality, that only applies to green cards,
as L visas are per company percentage based, and H visas run through a
lottery.

So, again, from what I understand, it is way easier to immigrate to Canada
than the US, as the USCIS is purposely curbing visa applications.

------
bruceb
To be clear even before Trump students have not been eligible for a visa for
online study.

Not an opinion on if students who were going to study in person the fall
should get to come/stay just a clarification.

Online school some students will mean having to sleep in day and do school at
night, though for some it will mean vastly cheaper living costs. Painful for
some, maybe sorta of beneficial for others.

In the US, in college areas, bad for those renting out apartments, good for
renters who will now see a reduction in rent.

~~~
klyrs
> To be clear even before Trump students have not been eligible for a visa for
> online study.

There have been concessions made throughout the pandemic, to alleviate its
impact on citizens and businesses. It's true that this was forbidden before,
but there's a choice made in every enforcement action.

International students are a boon to the country. It costs good money to
provide their education, and keeping them around afterward brings value not
just in rent, but their very contributions to our society.

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WaitWaitWha
That is not what the ICE doc says. If school opens 100%, students have to go.
If not, students can take more online classes than usual.

[https://www.ice.gov/doclib/sevis/pdf/bcm2007-01.pdf](https://www.ice.gov/doclib/sevis/pdf/bcm2007-01.pdf)

~~~
stu2b50
They must still take an in person class, and risk having their visa revoked if
not. That's just not about being in the US, you can't be a foreign student at
a US university without a visa. You'd have to take academic leave until you
can have it reapproved.

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stuupid
So imagine a monkey is driving a truck, and it's headed straight for you.
You're like, "What fools would let a monkey drive a truck??". The crowd
scatters, cursing the stupid monkey, and those who would let it drive the
truck. Someone eventually jumps on the truck and tosses the monkey out of the
driver's seat. Or maybe the monkey bails out.

You put a sensible obedient human driving the truck, and say "Thank goodness
we're safe again.", and go back to your business. The weird thing is, it seems
like a common problem that has been happening for years, this monkeys getting
into trucks and careening into the human population in various places around
the world.

Of course it's not the monkey. Monkey's can't even drive trucks. The truck was
being operated by remote control. The monkey is just a ruse to hide the truth.
And when you carefully observe this pattern of monkeys and trucks, you can
discern that it is some complex pattern of herding humans or human effects
around the earth.

One could say the monkey was put there by "nationalists" but that's just a
label of psychological manipulation, since everyone wants to have pride in
their nation and wants their nation to prosper. You could say those secretly
herding people with trucks are "globalists", but that doesn't adequately
describe the situation, since who wouldn't want the world acting together
solving problems with harmonious purposes?

If you think there may be some truth to this, I suggest we start by making
darn sure trucks don't have remote controls in them. Of course this is
figuratively and literally exactly the opposite of what many, perhaps
unsuspecting, people are working towards. Also better for the long term, find
those operating the trucks (which isn't exactly people, given the trans-
generational nature) and figure out what's going on, and have them realize
that such artificial systems of control are not beneficial and are doomed to
failure.

