
People work longer and different hours under lockdown - hhs
https://workplaceinsight.net/people-work-longer-and-different-hours-under-lockdown/
======
alyandon
I'm technically working longer because I'm not spending 70-120 additional
minutes of each day commuting 14 miles to/from the office. Despite working
longer, I still end up having more free time.

It is amazing how I manage to rationalize sitting in traffic for that amount
of time every day to myself.

~~~
bredren
I’m hopeful many people will wake up to the misery that cars and commuting
inflicts on themselves.

The United States has been consumed with car culture which has bled time and
resources from individuals like yourself. But it also is responsible for
endless tragedy in the form of accidents and financial overextension.

Car culture, partly driven by commuting, has inflated the need for some
systems and created entire rent-seeking businesses that could be any number of
more useful and interesting investments of human time and capital.

I believe a silver lining of the Coronavirus and the actions of political
representatives and appointees that have allowed covid to foster will
ultimately result in progression in many outdated norms we experienced up
through 2020.

~~~
randomProducer
I feel the same. The amount of poor neighborhoods with brand new cars rolling
around really depresses me. As someone who grew up pretty poor it always
fascinated me that my family and neighbors would buy cars worth 20k - 30k
which would be enough to provide a very basic/safe way of living for the
foreseeable future. I would take the peace of mind I would of had over having
a status symbol that random people on the highway could look at for a few
seconds on a trip.

Also driving is such a waste of human potential, I don't think the amount of
attention needed to drive safely is worth the monotony/tediousness of driving.
It's wasted time on a large scale.

~~~
yodsanklai
> The amount of poor neighborhoods with brand new cars rolling around really
> depresses me

I have no interest in cars and find it quite ridiculous that they can be seen
as a social status, so I agree with your statement. But, people have different
interests... some will spend their money travelling or playing golf, and some
people just like cars!

~~~
randomProducer
I think that's fair but I think the amount of people that think they're into
cars is far more than the amount of people that are actually into cars.

Not trying to be a gatekeeper but if I think about myself I know I "felt
social pressure" (grew up in a culture that glorifies this material item and
sets an expect ion of success/fulfillment) to get a car. I guess you could
argue that social pressures like this can grow naturally and I suppose I agree
that they can but I don't think this one grew naturally and for some people
promotes values that they may not hold.

Cars as status symbols, I think, is troubling at the scale they're at. If you
enjoy to ride around or appreciate their engineering then by all means.

Even as I type this I think if you want to splurge on a Car that you will just
take social media pictures with to make you feel good and show others then I
think you should, more power to you, do what makes you happy.

I guess my problem is that "what makes you happy" .. "is a fancy car" (you can
go in debt to get) is a message that is "loud" and unlike a house (arguably
the other functional yet status symbol) is within reach of people who it isn't
in their best interest to get.

I think it's a nuanced subject because as most things in life it's mixed up in
all aspects of human life like financial education and personal responsibility
but what I'm saying is that current "car culture" (to sweep away all the
nuance) doesn't feel right to me right now and I think causes a lot of harm.

~~~
baby
I agree. It's not just cars, it's also smart phones, expensive watches,
clothes, and so on. At the same time, it is what provides a fake boost of the
ponzi-scheme economy. Without all of this wasteful consumption there would be
no SP500.

------
NamTaf
I believe I'm working on average longer hours, but I'm able to more flexibly
use my own time whilst doing so. I'll work as I'm watching a Twitch stream,
for example, and I feel far more relaxed doing this than trying to focus 100%
on work and only work. I can pick when I work, so when I'm feeling completely
mindless and distracted at 2pm I can just zone out and do my own thing, but
then make it up later.

For me, the hours might be longer (even not counting the breaks in the day),
but the time when working is more relaxed. I prefer this balance.

~~~
rosstex
This is a slippery slope towards overworking, where work blends into life.
This isn't how things should be. Unless you're a PhD student like me :)

~~~
user_501238901
It's how "work" always was for thousands of years, before the office culture
meme changed it during the 20th century

~~~
Nimitz14
Oh so the internet and the endless distractions it brings with it existed in
the 19th century as well? /s

You couldn't be more wrong. There is mountains of evidence that attention
spans have shorted, and parent comment was a perfect example of that. Can't be
arsed to deal with whatever you should be doing? Ctrl + pgdown to the twitch
tab.

~~~
NamTaf
I don't know about you, but no matter how much I try I can't just
spontaneously summon up focus if my mind's not commmited to it. I was that way
in school, in uni and now in work.

Working in an office pretending that I can focus on the task at hand whenever
required by the roster of office life is one of the biggest charades I've ever
performed. It's not possible for me and I piss around on the internet on their
time when I am unable to focus. I don't feel that's an abnormal situation for
people, either, as it seems many of my colleagues also do it.

------
x87678r
I think I need to go back to the office just to get a better separation
between work and home. Working during the week I'm helping with kids and house
stuff, and if I have nothing to do for a few hours on the weekend I'm dialling
in to work to finish stuff off I should have done during the week. Its all
becoming a blur and I'm not doing either role well.

~~~
tetha
As much as I oppose forcing people into the office, there is nothing
intrinsically bad about being in the office.

Two guys from our team are in a similar situation as you are and we've agreed
on them taking up our office spots permanently. It's still simple to control
and track contact in that situation in case an infection occurs. But all in
all, it's been a great boost for their mental well being.

~~~
nogridbag
Sounds like those guys are either fortunate to be able to live on one
persons's salary or they feel comfortable returning the kids to daycare.

------
dade_
I’ve definitely noticed shorter meetings and it is now more common to end the
meetings when the topics are covered. However, there are a few people that I
work with that simply must blather on until the schedule time is used up.
Making up additional topics, begging people on the call to raise additional
items which are always completely off topic and unimportant. Perhaps they are
lonely, but it is especially annoying with video calls. I am going to get rude
about it one of these days.

~~~
joegahona
Rather than getting rude, get passive aggressive. Just drop off the calls and
blame Comcast -- something that's more difficult to do in an in-person
meeting.

~~~
jedberg
Someone created a video background for Zoom that says "reconnecting..." in the
same font Zoom uses for other stuff. They just put that up and step out of
frame.

------
papito
This is a matter of time discipline. Start your workday at 9AM. Someone
sending you a Slack message at 7AM - too bad - you are in the middle of your
morning routine.

At end of day, log out of your work account or shut down the work laptop,
whichever case may be.

You are not using your personal user account and a work account during the day
still, ARE YOU?

~~~
jrott
It's partially discipline but culture plays a role as well. If everyone at
your company is sending slack messages at 7 and you aren't it becomes easy to
be branded not a team player.

~~~
wolfgke
> it becomes easy to be branded not a team player.

Which is not a bad thing in my opinion. :-)

As they say in Germany: "Ist der Ruf erst ruiniert, lebt es sich ganz
ungeniert." (When the reputation is only ruined, one lives pretty unbothered).

~~~
randycupertino
That is a pretty fantastic expression. I'm in IT, but I dabble in photoshop
and was having fun making some silly photoshops for my coworkers. Word got out
and suddenly I had a queue. They even asked me to do things that we were
paying outside vendors to do (make logos). It got pretty aggravating until I
finally put my foot down and closed the "Graphic Design Shop."

------
chrisgd
I was let go but I found that I worked a lot longer as it was harder to get
things done with two kids in the background. Even as my wife struggled to keep
them away and let me work, inevitably I felt the need to help her or help the
older one with online school. As far as telling people that I wasn’t available
at certain times, that just didn’t seem to be an option.

~~~
harlanji
What didn’t work about telling people that you weren’t available at certain
times? I’ve had this feeling as well, but in practice I find that people
either respect my boundary or try to get a reason and then argue with the
reason—the latter type now just send me the signal that I don’t want to depend
on people like this anymore and that I should make space for new people.
Asking more to trigger reflection than for an answer, rhetorically I think
that’d be called. Best wishes. (Ps. It’s true that I’m homeless, if you check
my history, and I don’t feel that’s an indication of having boundaries not
being sustainable, I think I just had a lot of old garbage from being weak
that lead me here but I’m more likely to overcome it with this approach, even
if it’s slower).

~~~
chrisgd
I was in finance. Telling a senior level person about needing my own time
jeopardizes my bonus. Which was 50% of my total comp

------
namelosw
I love WFH but I found myself having serious productivity issues because I'm
an ADHD guy and I'm having procrastination issues, and WFH makes it even more
serious.

At first, I was struggling because I always wanted to open YouTube or just
stay there and thinking about random things and basically doing nothing for
hours. Eventually I have to secretly compensate with my own time regretfully.

Then I found when every time I compensate the work at night I'm pretty
productive because I'm under enough pressure to keep me focus and not
overthinking things. At that moment, I realized I can swap the time slots to
maximize everything.

Now I usually try to start working in the morning, as long as I'm productive,
and setup a timer to keep tracking on how long did I work. When I found myself
stop being productive and my mind is wandering, I would pause the timer and
just relax - do what ever I want, just not struggling anymore. When I feel I'm
ready to work, I would go back to work, and repeat. The most important part
is, if according to the timer I only worked 5 hours today and I ought to work
8 hours, I would start working no later than 9pm (given I usually slept at
12pm). It gives me enough time to finish my stuff, while I would unconsciously
understand it's the deadline thus it gives me the pressure to focus and being
productive.

It's pretty effective for me, and it helped me being able to keep being
productive without struggling. Some people may argue it's not good working
ethic, but as Martin Fowler suggested "Don't tell your manager (you're
refactoring)" (because refactoring would be a part of developing). Usually in
the office, there were times I have to force myself working in low
productivity mode. I'm refactoring my time to keep both my productivity
sanity.

~~~
sosborn
IMO “good working ethic” is only about doing your work and doing it well. It
doesn’t mean anything about working continuously for 8 hours.

~~~
whateveracct
100%. Don't let internalized capitalist guilt make you give your employer free
labor. Working more for no tangible benefit is just deadweight loss on your
end.

EDIT: Thanks for the downvote, anonymous capitalist HN stooge. pg, is that
you??

~~~
burfog
Being very capitalist, I don't give my employer free labor. I make my employer
pay. Capitalism is great for me.

~~~
claudiawerner
If you're employed by someone else, you're probably not a capitalist, as in,
employer of variable capital.

------
daveFNbuck
This says that people work 48 more minutes per day on average. I looked up the
mean commute time in the US, and it's 26.6 minutes each way. So this would
still be a small net win for people who are working from home. The win is
bigger if you factor in being home for lunch and other breaks.

~~~
kdmccormick
Sure, on the surface, that's ~6 minutes "won back" during lockdown... but time
commuting and time working are not equatable. Speaking for myself, my commute
is a time to focus on something simple, reflect, and listen to the radio or
podcasts. Work, while more interesting, is infinitely more mentally and
emotionally taxing.

Also, lunch at the office can be a nice time to take a break and socialiaze,
whereas lunch at home can turn into eating in front of one's laptop.

~~~
ickelbawd
There are winners and losers here for sure. Long commutes are gone but many
people relied on their commute keeping their work hours more strictly bounded.
You’re right that the the office camaraderie is mostly gone—-assuming your
office ever had any! I do miss lunchtime chats with coworkers—-and morning
chit chat as we settle into the day. Unfortunately as more people shift their
hours to better fit their different lives the possibility of a lunchtime
connect goes away entirely.

But, this has given me an idea to try and start a lunchtime video chat at
work. It might be harder with teammates in different timezones, and God forbid
should it ever become mandatory. But it sounds nice in theory...

~~~
alonmower
We’ve done the social lunch thing on video chat and while it has been nice it
can also add to overall fatigue of being in camera and in front of a computer
all day. It also doesn’t scale that well in terms of number of people. Still
though, having it there as an optional way to socialize has been a net
positive

------
Lightbody
The key thing here, as most people have noted, is that although it's a bit
more time, the flexibility and lack of commute makes it an overall net
positive.

I think this is actually already what most people doing WFH have already
experienced. Whether you're WFH forever or just during this lockdown, the key
thing is to be aware of your time and create some routines that break up your
day in ways that bring you joy and peak productivity.

(stop reading if you dislike a little self promotion)

For anyone interested, I cofounded a startup
([https://reclaim.ai](https://reclaim.ai)) hat helps here. It lets you
establish personal and professional habits and block out time for tasks, while
preserving max availability for genuinely necessary meetings. If you're
struggling with this stuff and on Google Calendar, give it a shot :)

------
amelius
The obvious reason why we work longer: we have no social lives anymore ...

~~~
saurik
Yeah. I am extremely confused that you seem to be the only comment on this
entire thread who isn't focused on commuting tradeoffs or work/life balance
due to commingled environments, as if this is "life a small usual, except
working from home"... I have _always_ worked from home (and think people who
go to an office are crazy), and my job is thereby identical to what it was
before COVID-19... and yet, I am working _much_ longer hours because I have
absolutely nothing else to do :/. I used to go out to eat a lot, hang out with
friends, go to movies and concerts and events, I live next to a university
where I could drop in on classes and talk to professors, I used to go to a lot
of conferences (which you could argue was "for work", but frankly we all know
a lot of the time spent at them isn't just a vacation you can justify as being
sort of related to your job; do I really need to go to CES every year? no)...
hell: I used to spend a weirdly large amount of time just grocery shopping, as
I enjoyed finding new foods and it was an activity around people I didn't
_have to_ interact with (as we are all doing stuff), but since I live in a
small-ish town (where I am even in local politics, which helps make it smaller
for me) I would often run into people I know and exchange at least a few
pleasantries; but now we all treat grocery shopping as something to do seldom,
in bulk: it is all very transactional and you can't wander the isles for an
hour, or get into conversations with people. So like, now, I am spending more
time on random hobbies, but those are still a bit lonely :/. I have gained a
bunch of weight, in no small part because I have gotten better at cooking...
just for me :(. I swear I am mostly an introvert, but I know I have an
extroverted streak (it is why I am able to be a politician and a public
speaker despite kind of hating other people ;P) and I normally have ways to
burn that off but I just don't have that at all anymore. I have watched an
infinite number of movies and TV shows (I now have a "quota" to get through
three movies a day ;P...), as my brain considers the people on the screen
vaguely similar to being around other humans (this has even caused me to start
following people I don't know on social media--like Instagram and TikTok--as
it causes the same trick), but that only uses part of my brain most of the
time (most movies aren't _good_ ) and so I still want to do something while
watching them (which also helps my brain not realize they aren't made from
real people). You know what working has? Coordination with other people on
what feels like a shared sense of purpose. I need that right now :(.

------
icegreentea2
I wonder how much is people anticipating that a hammer is probably coming. In
nearly all areas of North America and Europe, even the best managed countries
are expecting some sort of economic downturn - and it's likely to spread and
impact every industry eventually to some degree.

I know that I'm thinking that a bit. No one wants to be the easy pickings when
the layoffs come rolling around.

------
hhs
If interested, this is the study they reference:
[https://www.nber.org/papers/w27612](https://www.nber.org/papers/w27612)

~~~
LockAndLol
What I'd like to know is how they collected that data from 3.1M people.

> To study this question, we acquired de-identified, aggregated meta-data from
> an information technology services provider that licenses digital
> communications solutions to organizations around the world.

I'm guessing Slack, Teams or some other company provided them with this data.
If they have access to this data, then what kind of data do employers have
access to?

> Using the span of time defined by the first and last email sent or meeting
> attended in a 24-hour period, we also find the average workday span
> increased by +48.5 minutes

So that's how they define a workday. When you're in an office, you have lunch
with colleagues and there might be pressure to end it quickly, especially if
your boss is joining. At home, you can easily take a few more minutes, which
might actually be the 8% increase they are seeing here. To add to this, just
because the workday seems longer, it doesn't mean that the entire time was
spent working. It's possible to take more breaks when you need it.

~~~
jfk13
> Using the span of time defined by the first and last email sent or meeting
> attended in a 24-hour period

What a worthless definition. I often start my day with hours of development or
debugging work that doesn't involve sending any emails or attending any
meetings, so that would be completely missed. I can't be the only such person,
surely.

On the other hand, timezone issues mean that I sometimes have late-night
meetings, so I'd look really dedicated on those days. Of course, that'd miss
the fact that I took time out to go shopping, make dinner, do some gardening,
watch a movie, or whatever... all that now counts as part of my "work day"
because of a late-night meeting.

Seems like they've come up with something essentially meaningless here. This
"workday span" is (a) wildly inaccurate for anyone whose role is more than
sending emails and sitting in meetings, and (b) totally ignores the fact that
many people when working from home have huge flexibility to take breaks when
it suits them.

Ah well... I suppose a publication "dedicated to the design and management of
workplaces" has to try and justify its existence somehow.

------
zelphirkalt
From personal experience I can confirm: I worked longer and more efficiently
during working from home (WFH). There were a few more meetings as well.
Sometimes a few developers and I simply stayed in a conference call for almost
the whole working day. I had to start maintaining a log o working hours to
stop doing more than 8 hours. There was always that last thing I wanted to get
done that day, often costing 1 or 2 more hours.

And that was still better than having to waste 1h+ on the way to the office
and 1h+ on the way back. I am not sure I would decline, if I was offered to
work 9h a day but was allowed to WFH. I would still start earlier and be done
earlier than when not WFH.

~~~
vorticalbox
My comuite was 2 hours two work and 2 back, getting up at half 5 every day.

Since the office is now WFH I get more sleep and am far more productive.

I two find myself doing 1-2 hours extra a day though I am trying to reign that
back in.

I had always said at work I am just as productive at home as I am in the
office and this lock down gave me the chance to prove it

------
chadlavi
I really don't get why anyone who can choose when to stop working and whose
compensation is not hourly would ever work longer hours. Your time doesn't
belong to your employer.

~~~
cj
Some people enjoy their work. It's not always 100% about the money.

~~~
chadlavi
There's a difference between "I enjoy programming in my free time" and "I will
program my employer's stuff on my free time." The first one is enjoying what
you do, the second one is a sucker creating value for their employer without
being compensated for it.

~~~
cheerlessbog
That’s an over simplification. My job is owning part of an open source stack.
There’s countless fun projects in that which aren’t a necessary part of my job
but are fun to do out of hours and and still happen to contribute to my
employer’s larger goals. Eg, refactor some subsystem to make it faster.
Everyone wins, and because the source is open any future employers can see it
also. Plus I enjoy working with my coworkers and learn a great deal from doing
so: it’sa good environment for such projects.

------
davidw
I am getting very tired of living at work. I miss going in to the office.

~~~
booleandilemma
Agreed. Between work and non-work, I’m literally spending over 12 hours per
day in my living room. No matter what some people would have us believe, this
can’t be healthy.

~~~
Solvitieg
As a single person I've found it difficult.

I've made efforts to go out after work, spend time with friends, and get back
into my hobbies.

But none of these are enough to make up for the 8 hours of social interaction
I was getting each weekday by being in the office.

Also as a single person, working in an office environment downtown felt like I
had way more opportunity. Opportunity to move up in the company, opportunity
to meet a girlfriend, etc.

Oh well I guess there's Tinder.

~~~
cheerlessbog
I have a couple single friends in your position who were getting dangerously
lonely. They got a cat in one case dog in the other and it hasn’t fixed
anything but it’s given them a reason to get outside and a bit more of
something alive in their life

------
rafaelvasco
I in fact realized how much time I spent locked down in an office everyday.
And it seems too much. And now with home office, I'm locked down most of the
day again, at home. With this corona situation I was unemployed for 4 months.
I finally had time for my own projects. And I was able to actually finish
them. I'm now working home-office for a company. But the idea of earning money
with my own projects remains.

------
brushfoot
Not that the article claims this, but this doesn't mean lockdown is leading to
_more_ or _better_ work getting done, of course. It may just mean work-life
balance is harder now that the lines have been further blurred. Or maybe work
without commutes is relatively more relaxing to the point where start and stop
times don't seem to matter as much.

------
SomeHacker44
I feel that I work more, but I spend less time at work. I may work 30 minutes
more a day, on average, but save 2 hours commuting, $130 in mass transit and a
bunch in lunch money. As others said, I can also modify my hours a bit as
needed. I also have vastly more and longer meetings, unlike the article.

~~~
tommymachine
You spend 130 a day on mass transit?

------
elil17
Personally, I’ve been working harder because I lost my sense of job security.
My company wasn’t hit hard, but there are so many people looking for jobs
right now that I could easily be replaced. I feel I have to constantly impress
my bosses to keep my job.

------
irrational
I’ve reverted to my natural sleep cycle of 3:00am-11am or so. It has been
great for my health.

------
internet2000
Someone should map the sentiment in HN comments on working from home during
Coronavirus articles, I bet it would look interesting. I feel like they're
getting gradually more negative. (I personally can't wait to go back to the
office.)

~~~
cheerlessbog
What if your employer did the same as Twitter etc and declared working from
home was allowed forever. Could you imagine moving somewhere you’d love to be
- with excellent internet - finding new friends there and being happier than
other situation?

~~~
whywhywhywhy
If the new normal world is too dangerous to sit in an office together, how on
earth would you find new friends if you moved?

It doesn’t make sense.

~~~
cheerlessbog
Doing stuff outdoors or by other means staying apart

------
rossgordon
It's all about finding the perfect work/life harmony, though. Everyone's lives
have slowed down considerably, and in many ways work is a necessary and
welcomed use of time. As long as you have enough time to spend with your loved
ones and pursue your hobbies, working more may not be a bad thing.

My thoughts on work/life balance:
[https://gridology.substack.com/p/gridology-8-how-can-i-
strik...](https://gridology.substack.com/p/gridology-8-how-can-i-strike-a-
better)

------
dijit
Oh. I’m definitely working more hours total.

But I might go to the shop or take a 20 minute nap if I’m feeling frazzled.

Overall I prefer this interleaving of my work and my life, but I appreciate
that it shouldn’t be expected.

------
badrabbit
What will happen when people get burned out and they can't escape work to
recover because they live at work now?

~~~
whywhywhywhy
Feeling in the middle of this now. It’s honestly starting to feel like hell.

~~~
badrabbit
Sorry to hear friend. If you have family and friends that can hang out with
you, try making regular outside time with them. Heck, or just take a daily
walk at the park (with masks,etc...).

------
PakG1
I'm working longer because now everyone expects my availability 24/7, rather
than just during office hours.

~~~
noir_lord
Just turn the notifications off.

I turn slack off (currently in office until notice period is up then remote)
even when I'm at the office and I don't have a phone on my desk, if someone
wants something so urgent it's worth distracting me they can physically come
find me.

------
birdyrooster
Anecdotal: I work less hours and different hours under lockdown. Burnout means
I barely do shit and no one can tell the difference because I was just doing
the same thing (YouTube and Twitter) at work anyways.

------
imtringued
My company has a strict no overtime policy for remote employees. I can't work
longer even if I wanted to unless I do the work in secret.

------
option
my wife and I both work full-time (SWE). Have been fun WFH with 2 and 5 year
olds. And, I know, we are among the lucky ones who got to keep their jobs.

------
robniep
Personally I see an increase in hours worked per week, but I feel like my
meetings are more frequent and longer than average.

------
Finnucane
I’ve been adapting my schedule partly to the weather. When it is hot during
the day, I try to shift some of my work to cooler hours.

~~~
randycupertino
Ditto- except when it's lovely and sunny out, I'll make sure I block out 45
minutes to go do some yoga on the deck or garden in the yard.

------
zarkov99
People have to, at least parents do. Its pretty hard to get things done with
the kids in the house.

------
m3kw9
Is probably more spread out instead of longer they need to know the difference

------
mrlatinos
Horrible website, post the study instead.

------
Mupuff
We should all be working only 3\4 days of the week.

When you think of it, it's crazy how we just succumb to the notion that we
have to work at least 5 days a week (yay magic numbers) just so we can please
our corporate overlords.

