
Ask HN: What do you think of working for a startup that helps arresting people? - FreezeBurn
Hi, I just got contacted by a startup developing anti-shoplifting software, for a developer job(I did not apply, they reached out to me), their product is working pretty well, it&#x27;s used in a bunch of stores and already contributed to arrests...<p>On the technical side, I&#x27;m a perfect fit, I worked on extremely similar software(it was just a school project though), it seems like a great place to work(great incubator, founders from the best school in my country, lots of clients, modern stack...), but I&#x27;m not sure I&#x27;m ready to contribute to software that potentially sends poor people to jail, I&#x27;ve been on the &quot;other side&quot;, so I&#x27;m biased ofc, and I&#x27;m not sure I could look myself in the mirror if people were jailed &quot;because&quot; of my work.<p>I should add that I&#x27;m days&#x2F;weeks away from being completely broke, after that I&#x27;ll either have to borrow money, or go back to my parents in a city with virtually no tech jobs, so I&#x27;m still tempted.<p>I just went through an interview with another great startup(without any ethical issues), it went OK, and I have another interview with them next week, but it&#x27;s far from certain that I&#x27;ll get hired.<p>Those are the only 2 companies that offered me interviews recently(but I didn&#x27;t apply to a lots of jobs, since most of the good ones are gone since the pandemic)<p>What would you do in my position?Do you think that a job like this should be considered unethical?
======
trcollinson
Is shoplifting ethical and catching shoplifters unethical? I realize there are
circumstances that bring people to the point where they feel that shoplifting
is the only answer to their problem, but shoplifting is still illegal and for
good reason.

Now, if it turns out that their system targets specific races of people, or
only catches a certain "class" of people, that is unethical. But if it is an
inventory protection system, there is nothing unethical about that. You may
say "but some users may use it unethically to only arrest certain people."
Yes, that might be but you can't assume everyone is going to use every piece
of software ethically, and that doesn't make the software unethical.

I think you need to examine your ideas about ethics, morality, and the law.
Collectively, as a society, we think theft is bad. Keep that in mind.

------
taurath
I’ll take another tack than the others here - it is unethical. You are
commoditizing and automating private law enforcement. You’re assisting putting
people who generally only shoplift because they’re poor into a cycle of
criminality. We have done extremely little as a society to support poor
people, and up until 60 years ago we’re actively spraying down PoC with hoses.
It’s not good. It’s like manufacturing tear gas.

Now there’s plenty of ways to self justify this. There is a need for
shopkeepers to deter theft. There are ethical ways of going about it, but keep
in mind if you are 100% effective you will be almost exclusively be catching
poor people who wouldn’t shoplift if they weren’t poor. If you desperately
need money to survive, then take care of yourself. But IMO you’re right to
ask.

------
lgl
My 2 cents: It's a dev job, and you're a dev in need of work so I'd say take
it until you find something better.

The unethical part is relative because from that point of view, the people
working at FAANG would probably also be responsible for a lot more
imprisonments, deaths and destruction than the one you're going to be working
for.

Good luck.

------
avilesj
I hardly see a scenario where shoplifting is acceptable. Hell, the only
possible scenario I might "tolerate" would be if it was food (As in, you are
so poor you can't afford to eat).

I wouldn't mind working on that kind of software tho, specially if I am
"days/weeks away from being completely broke".

~~~
giantg2
I agree. And as far as food goes, there are usually plenty of options (SNAP,
food banks, etc). They might be strained in the current unemployment
situation.

I would also say that being poor is not an excuse for stealing. There are
plenty of poor people who have never stolen anything. I would not feel bad
about working on software to catch shoplifters.

------
nmstoker
You do not give a clear indication of your country. How you feel about the
handling of suspects and trials and the imprisonment of those who are guilty
will be a large input. If you're in a country where the act of arrest is
itself brutal, that alone may be enough to put you off. Again if you think
that people won't get a fair trial or if they do and yet face horrors in jail
then maybe it will put you off.

However the counter side is to explore could this be a source for good
overall. Clearly you shouldn't be naively over optimistic but is it plausible
this system may improve matters over the current situation? If a number of
innocent people are currently arrested by biased store detectives then a
system that highlights a higher portion of genuinely guilty people would be a
positive.

------
giantg2
How would you feel if you owned a store and people shoplifted?

------
codegeek
"I should add that I'm days/weeks away from being completely broke,"

tl;dr: Take the job.

You can always change it later but if you are going to be broke, I am sorry
but that is not going to help anyone including yourself. Help yourself first
before you can think of being moral or helping others. Just my 2 cents.

