
Brutal New York - 1965/95  - px
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=402544
======
Dn_Ab
1965ish. This is where, when Hip Hop was born. Probably a lot of you turn your
nose down* at this angry crime glorifying inferior 'form of noise'. But look
at the conditions of these kids and what they had to work with, is it any
surprise that they would be so pissed?

Now look at today, not so many years after and against large odds; those kids
have created an international culture with music, dance, stories, poetry - a
veritable complex art form that touches the lives of hundreds of millions of
people all over the world and gives, gave hope to those who had nothing else.
This, at least is something that a community of hackers and entrepreneurs can
appreciate. That is the true message of hip hop that has been lost by the
bastardizing filteration process of media and people not so intimately
connected to its origins - including descendants of the visionaries, who
despoil the art and see it as only a means to get rich quick and stack up on
some bi _ches. Damned Entropy.

It speaks something of both the human ability to persevere and the unique
aspects of the U.S. where people in such adverse coordinates can still go on
to create. such great things.

_I was a teeny bit hurt (not offended) by the Cr48 warning agains't exposure
to rap __.

 __yes i am aware that rap, heck music is a subset of hip hop

self.StepOfSoapBox()

~~~
potatolicious
Hear hear. For those who haven't had a lot of exposure to rap, I _highly_
encourage you to explore the early roots of rap and hip-hop; you will find
that much of it is _extremely_ socially conscious, in ways more authentic and
more compelling than long, drawn-out exposes and journal reports.

And then mainstream rap took a dive off a cliff into meaningless misogyny,
bling, and euphemisms involving skeet shooting.

~~~
noinput
Rap today is a mashup of old lyrics, over-engineered (and unnecessary) beats
and a sad use of Autotune. I used to DJ for years and couldn't stand where the
music was going, but the classics are considered classic for a reason, in my
book at least.

Listening to, and I mean really listening to the lyrics of true rappers that
started and built the movement up is inspiring. Much of it is the obvious
"Hoes & Cash", but there is almost always a reason they bring it up. It was
either about what they strived to get to, or the rewards of their hustle and
struggle to break out of the streets they grew up on. It truly is a unique
form of expression that very few other music forms can touch.

~~~
petercooper
_Rap today is a mashup of old lyrics, over-engineered (and unnecessary) beats
and a sad use of Autotune._

 _Mainstream_ rap, sure. But I don't think "rap" generally is worse. It's just
that it's become popular enough for there to be a crass mainstream that didn't
exist in the 80s.

It's common to bemoan the modern state of many things but we should recognize
that while the mean quality may have dropped, the median probably hasn't.
There's a lot of great rap still out there - it's just not the common
definition anymore. (It's like bemoaning the commercialization of blogs or the
low quality celeb accounts on Twitter - the good stuff still exists on both.)

~~~
kingkawn
hip hop can be all sorts of things, it doesn't just have to be what you like.
Kanye's album was good, so are Weezy's mixtapes and Gucci's last mix that came
out. Each of them has their own context. So does Del, Anticon, and everyone
else.

~~~
ctoneal
Amen. I get so tired of the "mainstream rap has degenerated" argument. Every
genre of music has tons of different artists, each with a different approach,
and it's a general trend that people who listened to a genre of music in one
era tend to not like the newer stuff (Try getting a classic rock or country
fan to listen to a modern rock or country station, and watch the criticism
flow!). It's just the nature of things.

The fact that you don't like the content/style/message/whatever doesn't make
an art form any less an art form.

~~~
kingkawn
well put, and you didn't even have to try to praise Gucci Man to do it.

------
ilamont
I visited NYC on a regular basis from 1987 to 1990, to see friends in
Brooklyn, NYU and northern NJ. It seems hard to imagine now, but I95 had
abandoned, jacked cars on the shoulder, right in the middle of the city. At
some grim housing estate visible from one of the train or aboveground subway
lines, I remember seeing thick trail of garbage a hundred feet long covering a
wide stairway going down an adjoining hillside to another street. Lots of
people sleeping rough in Penn Station, and aggressive panhandling. Natives
warned me not to take the subway past a certain time.

Despite this environment -- or because of it -- there was also a lot of
interesting cultural activity taking place in the city. Someone mentioned hip-
hop originated there; it was also where American punk rock got off the ground,
not to mention all kinds of art and theater activity. The food then, as is
now, was excellent.

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b_emery
The decrease in crime in NYC over the lase few decades is just remarkable. I
remember reading about the problems of AIDS and crack, and just thinking there
was no hope. I would have never thought it could turn around like it did.
Gladwell's "The Tipping Point" had some pretty good evidence that crime can be
thought of as an epidemic. I'd love to read more on the subject if anyone has
suggestions.

~~~
Tichy
I think in Freakonomics a study is cited that claims what actually curbed the
rise of crime was a change in abortion laws (rather than the "no broken
windows" theory). Not sure if that was one of the things in Freakonomics that
was later shown to be false, though.

~~~
primodemus
yes it has been disputed. See:
[http://online.wsj.com/public/article/SB113314261192407815-HL...](http://online.wsj.com/public/article/SB113314261192407815-HLjarwtM95Erz45QPP0pDWul8rc_20061127.html?mod=tff_main_tff_top)

and <http://www.economist.com/node/5246700?story_id=5246700>

~~~
b_emery
Thanks for those. The dispute has an interesting source:

"In other words, Messrs Donohue and Levitt did not run the test they thought
they had—an “inadvertent but serious computer programming error”, according to
Messrs Foote and Goetz"

------
maxklein
The U.S has come a long way since then. I wonder what happened to all those
drug addicted people - where do they live now?

~~~
mschwar99
I don't know about New York, but in DC gentrification is pushing many of the
urban poor to the older suburbs like Prince George's County in Maryland.

As the process continues it might be that some of the first suburban areas
built in the 50s and 60s become the new "inner cities." Transportation costs
serve as a pressure to drive people back into re-developed spots in the city
and next lowest cost of living are many of these first suburbs that haven't
seen development and investment keep up with the times.

~~~
petercooper
This has already happened in a significant way in many European cities (often
fuelled by downtown destruction during or post WW2). The suburbs of St Denis,
Sarcelles and Aubervilliers in Paris are good examples or the manufactured
suburb of Thamesmead in London.

------
Duff
My family moved away from NYC in the late 80's because they couldn't afford to
send us to the Catholic school, and the middle school that I was going to be
sent to had some issues with violence. Violence like kids burning up cars with
molotov cocktails.

------
javanix
Unfortunately, places like these still exist.

Read 'The Corner' by David Simon (creator of _The Wire_ and _Treme_ ) if
you're interested in a more modern take on the ghetto.

Take home message: the war on drugs in its current form is not working and the
side effects are places like this, completely cut off from normal society,
almost completely out of reach outside of an economic revival (like happened
in Harlem).

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VladRussian
very familiar pictures - that was depiction of life of working people in the
US in the Soviet media when i was a child.

~~~
arihelgason
Apparently the KGB tried to recruit the photographer, Jacob Holdt. He then
tried to stop his book being used for propaganda. That probably didn't stop it
from happening, though.

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacob_Holdt>

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rlmw
For some reason when I clicked this link, I assumed it would be picture of
brutialist architecture [0]. Interesting photos nonetheless.

[0] <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brutalist_architecture>

------
godber
Later in that thread there are links to other threads that include pictures of
Harlem in recent times:

<http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=404013>

<http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=405109>

------
mikecane
I find it odd that this link has gained such traction. Months ago I posted a
link to Holdt's original American Pictures site and it sunk like a stone. I'm
sure this has happened to other people here too. No figuring out what will or
won't pop.

------
Jun8
I read the book excerpt that is linked (<http://www.american-
pictures.com/english/book/book-9.htm>) an it's fascinating!

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AlexMuir
Three years ago people would read that and feel glad that those areas have
improved. Today I read it and feel sad that we are inevitably heading back
into similar days.

~~~
klbarry
Really? What signs do you see in NYC of heading back to those days? I live
pretty fearlessly in most places, and I used to take the subway late, late at
night all the time. The only dangerous places are really some parts of the
Bronx.

~~~
evgen
FWIW, this recent recession is currently considered an anomaly because crime
rates _did not_ go up. When the economy slowed down everyone braced for a
spike in the various crime rates that seems to inevitably follow such an
event, and they waited...and waited...

~~~
chipsy
Some of this could be attributed to having much better opiates for the masses
these days. A phone, a game console, or an old Internet-capable computer can
all provide a near-limitless, cheap, side-effect-less escape. This wasn't the
case in 1990 - the technologies were there but not mature and widespread.

------
flip
<http://gurlgoestoafrica.tumblr.com/>

The author needs to read this and get a life. Stop focusing on the downsides
and actually do some work. It's as though people want to entirely forget the
past and merely see the present.

This post is, entirely, ignorant and racist.

~~~
flip
Furthermore, shame on HN for taking on the liberal agenda and feeling pity.
It's one thing to point out a problem. But to point out a problem without
offering a solution? This is pathetic. For the first time, I am embarrassed to
be part of this community. Way to be objective like the logical type we aspire
to be guys! You've really let me down by even allowing this to reach the front
page. This does not help me write code better... in any way. You have
exploited HN by posting, and REALLY? upvoting this kind of bullshit.

