
China Can Build Infrastructure. Why Can’t We? - jseliger
http://www.governing.com/gov-institute/voices/col-financing-infrastructure-capital-p3s-china.html?utm_content=buffer9b425&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer
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hackuser
The United States right now is the richest country in the history of the
world, by a wide margin. Second place is the U.S. last year, third place is
the U.S. in 2014, etc. It has the highest income, around $18 trillion (GDP)
[0], and most wealth, around $85 trillion.[1]

Some politicians take the radical position that taxes must always be reduced,
then claim the government has no money for government services and investment.

The U.S.'s problem is not economic, it's merely a political problem with
certain politicians.

\----

[0]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_the_United_States](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_the_United_States)

[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_wealth](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_wealth)

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zoom6628
@gutnor has very salient point - China started from nothing and have to create
everything....and i mean everything. That 'greenfield' means no existing infra
to be replaced/removed which has its own costs.

infra building in China is vastly seen as in the public good and generally is.
Airports, railways, highways are viewed positively by the public and not seen
as pocket-lining by large corporates so even toll-roads are acceptable here.

politics - there is so much to do and no time to do it. So things get decided
and executed at a breathless pace to get China infra on a level with developed
nations by 2025. Dont forget China really only started building in early 80's
to create infra that in Europe has been around up to a few hundred years.

As someone who has lived here in China for more than 10 years it is still
amazing to watch first hand. Shanghai for 6 years and now Guangzhou .... the
pace is frenetic but bottom line is the quality of life has improved to light
years ahead of what i saw when i first stepped across the border to Shenzhen
on a short visit with parents in December 1980.

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dmoy
I would say, in no particular order:

1) not as strong eminent domain (either law or willpower to use, idk)

2) similar to above with zoning

3) labor costs (very cheap to have literal around-the-clock construction work
in China)

4) existing infrastructure that is for the most part "good enough" for current
use cases

#4 kinda kills us for things like e.g. public transit, when most people have
cars.

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enraged_camel
One problem with eminent domain in the US, as I understand it, is that the
price the government is required to pay the owner is not just based on current
value of the land, but also potential future value.

I hear that it's common for people who own low-value properties located next
to highways and such to have plans drawn for "future improvements", which can
be high-value things like hotels, for instance. Then, when the government
wants to take ownership of the land, they can say, "look, I am planning to
build a hotel here, this land's potential future value is 10 times what it is
now!" Which makes things kind of hard for the government.

~~~
wahern
I know a low-income housing developer and, at least in California, eminent
domain isn't a problem at all. I don't think in any state will a court accept
such speculative claims of value, but that's certainly not the case in
California. According to the developer I know, municipalities inevitably end
up paying less than her original offer to the property owner. And the court
case proceeds rather swiftly.

AFAIU, the biggest headaches are environmental impact reports, _especially_ in
California. It's not the burden of creating the report. There are reputable
companies that specialize in these studies and are exceedingly efficient at
it. For moderate to big projects the cost of the report is minimal; for tiny
projects less so, but at least it's something you can easily budget ahead of
time. For urban projects there are rarely any real surprises.

The real problem is that the laws requiring environmental impact reports
provide a cause of action to local NIMBY groups, who then hire a law firm to
drag their challenge out forever. Because these reports are so detailed,
there's ample opportunity to nit-pick. This is especially bad in California
because California's environmental impact law forbids courts from imposing
costs on plaintiffs. Even the most flagrant abuses of the system go
unpunished.

Time is money, especially when it comes to lining up financing. Even moderate
delays can ruin budgets.

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Hydraulix989
Regulations caused by NIMBY-ism are what's holding back the Bay Area, one of
the most advanced economy's (standalone) in the world from actually having
decent infrastructure.

~~~
gutnor
The article has a much more realistic analysis: there is no public will and
money in the US to push for that kind of project.

> "The uncomfortable reality is that we can't agree on what to build --
> transit or highways, dams or water conservation technology. And we don't
> want to pay for it."

The power of regulations and NIMBy-ism is a symptom of the weakness of the
government to really get being an infrastructure project, not the cause.

China on the other hand is fully committed, but they start from nothing, so
they have to build everything anyway. That's not the case in the US, and at
some point, as bad as current service is, the cost benefit of massive
infrastructure project get more complicated.

For example, does the Bay Area really need massive improvement to compete ? It
is on top of its game, despite its weaknesses. Unless you go full China (with
the consequences) you will not build enough transport, enough housing and
transport enough low paid workers to man all those new coffee shops,
hospitals, schools, ... that are needed to support an even more desirable Bay
Area.

Maybe it is time to think about something else. For example it is not normal
that the Bay Area still work using the same pattern than in the 70's.

Technology has evolved exponentially since then. A lot of people met their
wife online, keep their friendship across continent online. Grand-Parents see
their grand children more often than they could in the 70's, despite having
them on the other side of the country. But workplace is still a massive
building somewhere with thousands of people sharing an employer. And the
irony, is that you take the bus packed full with people from your own company
but you need to video conference to talk to the other people of your team.

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rrggrr
I love China and miss visiting. I don't miss and am haunted by my last visit,
watching an elderly woman, broom in-hand, fruitlessly swept snow from an
unplowed highway as cars (including mine) sped past.

The United States spends nearly the equivalent of China's entire 2013 budget
meeting past commitments its made to its citizens and debt holders in the form
of mandatory spending programs and debt service. Despite record revenues in
2015, thanks in part to increased payroll taxes that hit almost every
American, the US still can't balance its budget.

This is increasingly the case in China, where the costs of maintaining
infrastructure are putting severe pressure on many provincial and city
governments.

You cannot judge all of China by Shanghai. Perhaps Mr Rosenstiel can author
something in Governing about meeting existing obligations and balancing the
budget before he proposes new spending.

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Animats
We have a large political movement beating the drum for lower taxes. This
limits what Government can spend. That's just fine with lots of people.

SF is building, but the wrong stuff. Who needed a subway to Chinatown?

~~~
et-al
The Central Subway _was_ supposed to go from Washington Square Park to
Caltrain, but unfortunately its usefulness has been diminished by cutting the
Pagoda Palace Station. [0]

If you've ridden the 8/30/45 from North Beach to downtown, you'd notice that
Stockton Street in Chinatown is a clusterfuck with pedestrians shopping,
loading trucks, cars, _and_ busses. In addition to regular commuters, there
are also tourists taking these busses between Union Square and Fisherman's
Wharf.

Furthermore, it would be nice to have a direct line from Union Square to
Caltrain. The KT/N is not as direct as going straight down 4th Street (when
one actually arrives..).

I agree with you that right now, the Central Subway looks a bit useless, but
in its ideal form, it would have ridden by many passengers.

[0] [http://www.socketsite.com/archives/2015/12/no-progress-
for-a...](http://www.socketsite.com/archives/2015/12/no-progress-for-a-subway-
extension-to-north-beach-and-a-setback.html)

~~~
Animats
It's the mess in Chinatown that makes it interesting as a tourist destination.
It's retro, stuck in the old China. It's not the US branch of Shentzen.

~~~
et-al
I'm talking about the traffic on Stockton Street itself, which may be also be
fascinating, but most tourists are on Grant Street anyways.

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FussyZeus
We can't even maintain the infrastructure we have.

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lj3
This. Building is easy. Maintenance is the nightmare. Take a look at Curitiba,
Brazil for a great example of what happens when you can't maintain what you've
built.

[http://www.citylab.com/commute/2012/06/has-south-americas-
mo...](http://www.citylab.com/commute/2012/06/has-south-americas-most-
sustainable-city-lost-its-edge/2195/)

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baybal2
PRC is a single party state. Once an order is signed, it's being done.

