

Debian to use Xfce as its standard desktop - googletron
http://www.h-online.com/open/news/item/Debian-to-use-Xfce-as-its-standard-desktop-1663868.html

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w1ntermute
I'm very glad to see this happen, for a coincidental reason. Xfce is a great
DE and a solid implementation of the traditional desktop UI paradigm that many
of us ("us" being power users) are comfortable with and productive in. While
the major players (Apple, Canonical, Microsoft) chase after the latest UI fads
in an attempt to appease casual users, we're the ones getting the shaft.

~~~
slurgfest
It is a matter of taste. I use Xfce because it's fast but on fast machines I
have no problem using Gnome Shell with plugins that give functionality which
is at least as good, if not better. Unity is less customizable but has
improved some details and is quite usable; Compiz is ridiculously customizable
in any case, even if you don't want the dock. And there are several good
tiling WMs, etc.

Now as ever, there is no shortage of good desktops and window managers to
choose from on Linux, for the 'power user' ... again, it's a matter of taste.
Not a matter of some terrible betrayal by one or another distro.

~~~
shrughes
It's not a matter of taste, it's a matter of performance. Unity and Unity 2D
have terrible performance.

~~~
antihero
On a decent PC it's negligable.

~~~
shrughes
Try running Unity in a VM on a machine that doesn't have graphics resources to
spare. Try running Unity or Unity 2D in a VM on a machine that lacks VT-d. It
is horrific.

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jmillikin
Previous discussion: <http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4356197>

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emillon
No, Debian is not going to use "Xfce by default". There is a ongoing
discussion on debian-devel about what to put on CD1 (for people who install
with CDs and no network), as Gnome and KDE do not fit anymore. Putting Xfce by
default solves this issue, so does using xz compression for .debs. But no
consensus has been reached : this has been committed in git, but no package
has been released yet.

And as others have said, defaults are mostly irrelevant (or most people would
use Vim in Vi-compatible mode). Debian is a software distribution, which is
only a way to deliver software to your computer. You can install whatever DE
or WM you wish :)

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bkor
This news was initially announced by Phoronix. Later other people added
interesting things that were left out by Phoronix.

E.g. that the change for one was to push for support for xz compressed
archives. That support has quickly gone through. Furthermore, that maybe
sticking to 650MB is not that sane anymore, as apparently buying CDROM readers
has already been impossible for many years in loads of South American
countries. Instead, something like 1GB might be considered.

See for instance the reaction from people somewhat involved in Debian:
[https://plus.google.com/110356875332222535709/posts/46wiyitn...](https://plus.google.com/110356875332222535709/posts/46wiyitnqpJ)

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factorialboy
Ubuntu user and not Debian but XFCE is awesome. It's my default environment
after trying out Gnome 2, Gnome 3 (Shell), Unity, Cinnamon, KDE and whatever
else I could get my hands on.

~~~
andyking
I did the same - I'd been clinging onto the outdated 10.04 LTS for some time,
because I didn't want to move to either Unity or Gnome 3 (tried both for a
fortnight each, in daily use, and just couldn't be as productive on either).

Eventually, after having a go with Xfce and finding it reasonably good, I
tried the latest Kubuntu (12.04, KDE 4.8) and really love it. Every time I
come across an annoyance[1], there's a checkbox somewhere to turn it off, or
change it to work how I want.

[1] Annoyances for me include things like _doing something_ just because I
move the mouse somewhere - like showing an Exposé just because I put my mouse
in the top-left corner.

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byroot
Using a better compression algorythm (LZMA2) is also planned by Debian
maintainers to make gnome fit on the CD. So this commit will probably be
reverted before the final release.

~~~
kijin
It might be that the 700MB size limit is just an excuse to dump GNOME 3 and
not the most important reason. Given the conservativeness of Debian releases,
I wouldn't be surprised if the Debian team decided to wait for GNOME 3 to
become more mature. Remember, Debian shipped a stable release with KDE 3 even
after KDE 4 was released.

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bootload
_"... Hess explained that the measures ensure that the standard desktop will
fit on the first installation CD, which GNOME currently does not ...
Unfortunately, Debian does not have a well-defined procedure for making such
choices, So, I've decided to be bold ..."_

And that's the only reason? This is a big step, no evaluation, asking users?
Is this the only reason Gnome isn't being adopted because it won't fit on the
install?

~~~
jlarocco
I don't think it's a very big step, actually.

In my experience, very few people use the default settings when installing
Debian. Most people specifically choose the WM they want during the install.
For example, in my case, I've used Debian for 7 years, and I don't think I've
ever used the default. But since it has to default to something, might as well
pick the WM that fits on a CD.

People who blindly accept the default settings use Mint or one of the *buntu
distros.

~~~
bootload
_"... In my experience, very few people use the default settings when
installing Debian. ..."_

Good point.

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arc_of_descent
Long time Linux desktop user. After using ArchLinux for just over six months
with Xfce, I recently switched to Debian Squeeze. I'm so glad that Xfce will
be the default DE. Its simple and gets the job done.

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aangjie
Ubuntu 12.04 user. But having been through multiple linux desktop starting
with Fedora 9, am now tired. For my next box i want a basic linux kernel +
bash + Xserver + xmonad WM. nothing fancier.

~~~
antihero
Arch Linux is geared up to do this, pretty much.

~~~
aangjie
Yep, am considering debian, ArchLinux, gentoo. Ofcourse building all the
packages i need on top of the base. Right now, that's how the priority stands,
but might move up ArchLinux.

~~~
antihero
Gentoo is fantastic until you realise you are wasting ages compiling
everything.

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VLM
This is a confluence of three cultural impedance mismatches.

The first is that some non-Debian distros focus themselves primarily on
selecting exactly one, and only and forever one, DE for the distro. I don't
know why this annoying fad spread into an annoying industry standard a couple
years ago (OK maybe a decade ago). So Kubuntu = KDE and Ubuntu = Gnome and
never the two shall switch, ever, without a wipe and reformat and reinstall of
something else. Debian is culturally different and you just install what you
want. Its almost like a bad Zen koan. "All states have a state religion. The
US has no state religion. What is the state religion of the US?" Well its a
question that culturally makes no sense. Sound of one hand clapping. Mu. So
there is no official DE for Debian, and thats good and how it should be and we
all like it like that. But it makes conversations awkward and weird at a
cultural level.

The second cultural mismatch is there's a pretty intense focus on being able
to distribute A Debian cdrom (emphasis on singular) that will boot and install
a minimal system in Debian. This demand or desire or cultural trait requires
that some working subset of Debian be found that will fit in 650 MB. Other
distros just don't care or perhaps they only really support netinst or perhaps
their "minimal single disk install" is a SL (or DL?) DVD. Gnome and KDE just
are not going to fit along with the required stuff on a single 650 meg cdrom,
so bye bye. I see this gradually shifting in Debian... I haven't done a
"single disk install" in many years... All PXEboot netinst for many years. I
think my experience is common that sometime in the 00s I switched from optical
media to USB/netinst "media". But this cultural trait is how it used to be and
it still has momentum. Someday momentum will build in a new direction, but it
hasn't yet, maybe next release? In the Debian culture you flow with the river
or at most try minimal diversion, you don't shout at the waves or lead a
cavalry charge into the ocean.

The third cultural mismatch is corporate or semi-corporate distros make UI and
all other decisions based on marketing, PR, mostly a bunch of tail chasing
imagination of what a theoretical user might like, or what we will tell them
to like. Extremely top down organization where the packagers are told exactly
what to do. However the Debian people make Debian "for their users" and the
most important users with the biggest voice are the Debian devs themselves...
Its a intensely bottom up organization. Out in the real world, no one
seriously WANTS to use KDE or Gnome, they just feel in an "emperor has no
clothes" way that yes they personally don't like either, but that mythical
"everyone else" just loves gnome and/or kde so they'll go along to get along
and select one. No one in Debian would (intentionally) stand in the way of the
work of other maintainers, so if someone wants to package KDE or Gnome, the
mythical "everyman developer" wouldn't stop them, but if no one wants to use
KDE or Gnome, the mythical "everyman developer" is not going to force everyone
else to use one, just like they wouldn't force a maintainer or user to do
things in general. Another way to look at it, is its very social darwinist,
we'll package up some software and if people want it, it grows, if not, it
disappears. Not an intelligent design approach were the C*O and VPs decide
which software will live and die. Its very hard to map top-down cultural
thinking about what DE they'll force the users to use, into a bottom-up
culture like Debian. So its weird / uncomfortable / difficult to even discuss
the concept of what we'll force the users to use. It doesn't culturally make
sense to use top-down talk to discuss the behavior of a bottom-up org.

The TLDR version, is that culturally this whole argument doesn't make any
sense in Debian.

~~~
wladimir
_So Kubuntu = KDE and Ubuntu = Gnome and never the two shall switch, ever_

That's not true. It's pretty easy to switch them around or install both (or
neither, in the case of Ubuntu Server): 'apt-get install ubuntu-desktop'
versus 'apt-get install kubuntu-desktop'. Ubuntu shares the same underlying
package repository for all variants.

