

Show HN: Trontium Reactor, the first USB Power Delivery battery - _Robbie
http://trontium.com/

======
arethuza
The should include a camera in the device as well - just to record reactions
when people take it out of their bag at airport security checks.

The only way I can see they could have made it look more threatening would be
to write "Atomic Bomb" in large letters down the side and have a large LED
display counting down to zero in 15 seconds or so.

Edit: The perfect add-on for your reactor:
[http://www.instructables.com/id/Crazy-Countdown-
Timer/](http://www.instructables.com/id/Crazy-Countdown-Timer/)

~~~
yread
290Wh is not allowed no board aircraft as per ICAO rules Annex 18, the maximum
without a specific agreement from the airline is 100Wh. With the agreement
it's 160Wh. "Lithium batteries exceeding 160Wh are prohibited in both carry-on
and checked baggage."

see for example:

[http://www.airchina.com.cn/www/en/html/index/travel_informat...](http://www.airchina.com.cn/www/en/html/index/travel_information/service_bulletin/latest_travel_inform/2717/)

All the laptops are made with 97Wh for a reason...

~~~
arethuza
According to their FAQ:

 _Can I bring a Reactor on a plane?

Yes. Per FAA rules every traveler can carry-on up to two Reactor sized
batteries._

[NB I'm not saying I believe them - I wouldn't go anywhere near an airport
with one of these things.]

~~~
yread
It seems you're right. It is allowed by FAA but disallowed by ICAO. I'm not
sure I would take any chances with a 300$ device though

 _Passengers can also bring two (2) larger lithium-ion batteries (more than 8
less than 25 grams of equivalent lithium content per battery or about 100-300
watt hours per battery) in their carry-on._

[http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/ash...](http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/ash/ash_programs/hazmat/passenger_info/media/faa_airline_passengers_and_batteries.pdf)

------
frik
What a bad name for a product. It reminds one of strontium and nuclear
reactor.
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strontium](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strontium)

It's an accu battery pack (lithium-ion), no nuclear reaction, the name is
misleading.

~~~
kayoone
thats probably intended. A mash of thorium and strontium maybe..

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thorium-
based_nuclear_power](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thorium-based_nuclear_power)

~~~
frik
I don't get the fanciness.

Thorium reactors are a dead-end, as European research found out. They had
stopped all work years ago. There were major accidents with this type of
reactors and one even happened at the same time as the Chernobyl disaster:
[http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kernkraftwerk_THTR-300#St.C3.B6...](http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kernkraftwerk_THTR-300#St.C3.B6rfall_am_4._Mai_1986)

For some reasons some countries don't want to learn from history.

Edit: English language links:

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/THTR-300](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/THTR-300)

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pebble-
bed_reactor#Thorium_high...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pebble-
bed_reactor#Thorium_high-temperature_reactor)

~~~
luka-birsa
I always find it amusing when links provided by "nay sayers" present contrary
evidence or no evidence at all.

From the link: The nuclear power plant THTR-300 ( thorium high-temperature
reactor) was a helium-cooled high-temperature reactor of the type pebble bed
reactor in North Rhine-Westphalia Hamm with an electrical output of 300
megawatts . Despite its designation as a thorium reactor , it was essentially
a normal on uranium fission ( 235 U) based reactor: While there was his
nuclear fuel to 90 per cent of thorium, but this was holds less than 30
percent of its energy. Because of its high cost and because of his
unsatisfactory, short operation he is widely regarded as the greatest
technical debacle in post-war Germany.

The reactor was in fact a URANIUM REACTOR!

I still need to see relevant proof that Thorium technology failed for any
other reason than good sales and marketing from the Uranium camp.

~~~
darklajid
Dear diary: My most bizarre moment on HN so far. Someone referenced my tiny
(ugly) birth town in a discussion about energy.

On topic: It didn't look impressive. :)

~~~
phryk
At least you didn't grow up in Ennigerloh and Beckum. T_T

------
ddeck
My favorite item from the Q&A [1]:

 _What’s to prevent a Reactor from rolling off a table?_

 _We will be offering an octagonal silicone sleeve that will prevent a Reactor
from rolling off surfaces and also protect it from bumps._

So....your base product actually will roll off the table, but you can buy an
optional extra to prevent it?

I know nothing about USB power delivery, but I presume that's the value
proposition (since as others have noted, there are already a plethora of
external USB batteries) although it seems nothing currently supports it.

[1] [https://trontium.com/answers/](https://trontium.com/answers/)

~~~
Tloewald
Thank god it's cylindrical, because I'm sure it's cheaper to make it
cylindrical, there's a nice big cylindrical space in every backpack, it's
easier to source cylindrical stuff to stick in it, and as a bonus it rolls off
tables.

~~~
nwh
I know you're being sarcastic, but there's probably lots of round aluminum
extrusions around to choose from. It would make the thing cheaper to build
without having to go and make their own dies, just make two injected plastic
ends and you're good to roll.

~~~
Tloewald
Interesting point (and I hadn't considered this) but a quick search reveals
plenty of standard off-the-shelf aluminum extrusions that won't roll off a
table and also could accommodate plastic end caps, such as rounded rectangles.

Now they may want a cylinder to maximize underwater performance, but that
seems pretty far-fetched. It's just a stupid shape.

------
specialp
For $299 I can sure buy a lot of lithium ion batteries. There are already many
such products out there that are very cheap. 290w/h is 58000 mah at 5v. I can
buy a 11,000 mah pack for 29.99 on Amazon and surprise it weighs 1/4 the
weight. Even if I bought 5 of them to equal the energy capacity it would be
1/2 the cost. (But it is not a REACTOR) There really is nothing novel at all
about this product, and it is overpriced. I guess I am doing something wrong
when shoving 3 lbs of commodity Li ion batteries into a tube and making some
fancy name can yield a 100% profit margin.

~~~
alexkiritz
It has three high power voltage converter circuits which are needed for it to
support USB Power Delivery. Those are more expensive than the batteries and no
other device has three of them.

Lithium-ion packs are measured at 3.7 volts, not 5.

~~~
centizen
Buck or SEPIC based DC/DC conversion systems absolutely do not cost more than
even a single LiIon cell. And to have multiple converters is far from a novel
concept.

I think this is a neat implementation but there is no technical justification
for this price tag, and the idea is far from unique. Looks cool though, and I
guess for some that's all that will matter.

~~~
alexkiritz
This isn't just a simple unidirectional converter. Power must flow in both
directions.

We are also using ultra high efficiency parts and may also increase the power
to over 100 watts if we can get it approved/ make it safe.

------
onion2k
The fact the website's team page is essentially devoid of information is
worrying. I'm not a hardware guy so I have no idea about this sort of thing,
but how hard is battery design? Is it wise to trust $thousands worth of
Macbook/camera/etc to a battery designed by a group of anonymous people behind
a Kickstarter campaign? If any of the people involved is an experienced and
qualified electrical engineer, they really need to be shouting about it.

~~~
nakedrobot2
The team would apparently be "Alex" I guess?
[https://trontalk.com/member/3-alex](https://trontalk.com/member/3-alex)

[http://www.linkedin.com/pub/alex-
kiritz/83/528/b31](http://www.linkedin.com/pub/alex-kiritz/83/528/b31) Alex
Kiritz President at Trontium Inc Redondo Beach,
CaliforniaElectrical/Electronic Manufacturing

[https://twitter.com/AlexKiritz‎](https://twitter.com/AlexKiritz‎)

[https://plus.google.com/107960025708414384190/posts](https://plus.google.com/107960025708414384190/posts)

But this is a Show HN, Maybe Alex can chime in to answer some of the questions
we have...?

~~~
alexkiritz
Another member of the team posted this late last night. What questions do you
have? One of us will respond when we're not asleep.

~~~
_Robbie
Confirmed.

------
Ellipsis753
Awww. I was really hoping it would be a nuclear reactor that I could buy and
use to power my electrical devices forever. I've got to say I was quite
disappointed to find it was just a large battery.

------
nakedrobot2
This is cool, and I love the coming wave of sexy batteries :)

My main gripe is this: ONLY USB output? Why?

I currently have a "noname chinese crapgadget" battery that can power my usb
devices, but also has 9V and 12V output. Much more versatile!

Also, and this is more of a stretch, I know - being able to power a macbook
would make this a FAR more universal kind of battery.

EDIT: Oh! I'm sorry, it seems that you _can_ charge your macbook....
[https://trontium.com/specs/](https://trontium.com/specs/) But how does that
work?

Good job with the site design and product design, and I wish you success with
your crowdfunding! :-)

~~~
akx
It's not exactly USB output, it's USB-PD (USB Power Delivery), which is a
different beast altogether.

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USB#USB_Power_Delivery](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USB#USB_Power_Delivery)

~~~
nakedrobot2
Okaaaaaaay, and how to you connect a wire from that USB port to your magsafe
port on your macbook?

~~~
bryanlarsen
with the appropriate adapter cable.
[https://trontium.com/answers/](https://trontium.com/answers/)

------
TeMPOraL
From FAQ:

>> _Can I bring a Reactor on a plane?_

> _Yes. Per FAA rules every traveler can carry-on up to two Reactor sized
> batteries._

Well, if supposedly[0] a charged laptop battery can be shorted to unleash
energy equivalent of a small hand grenade, how strong a bomb made of two
Reactors would be?...

[0] - so I read at random places in the Internet.

~~~
sdfjkl
Air travel is ruled by irrational fears more than by FAA rules. I can
absolutely see how a metal case that looks like a pipe bomb on x-ray is going
to cause some interesting conversations at the security gates.

~~~
slazaro
Especially if you say, "No, it's fine, it's a Trontium Reactor".

~~~
shankysingh
All I can hear in my head was "Stand Back!! I am doing science" :P ref xkcd

------
kubiiii
Two things from the website : >We created Trontium to drive humanity forward
Ok I cant discuss the reasons why you created trontium and driving humanity
forward is indeed a great goal but wow this is just a (rather cool) battery.

Plus I think the keyboard (a yamaha psr E403 I think) featured in the pictures
is not usb powered.

Other than that I'm impressed by the 8 charges you can make with the dewalt
drill. Great to build something far from power outlets.

~~~
alexkiritz
You're right. That keyboard is not USB powered. That's why we're making
adapter cables. I'll be posting a tutorial on the site later today with
pictures, but the general idea is that you can buy an adapter cable for
whatever device you have and then set its voltage requirements in an app.

[https://trontalk.com/filedata/fetch?photoid=147](https://trontalk.com/filedata/fetch?photoid=147)

~~~
userbinator
_and then set its voltage requirements in an app_

This is going to create some unexpected excitement and lots of magic smoke for
a lot of people...

------
huhtenberg
> Made in California

Perhaps it means something positive in California itself, but outside of it it
more or less means "expensive, pompous, behind schedule" :)

~~~
Tloewald
That's a bit unfair. I think you mean "expensive, _cylindrical_ , and behind
schedule"

------
blisterpeanuts
My wife's cell phone and camera are constantly running out of juice. One of
these would be great. But let's be real. This battery pack is larger than her
whole purse.

The picture they have of a backpacker with a liter bottle on one side of his
pack and a Trontium on the other looks nice and self-sufficient but he's got
all that extra weight to lug. Is he going to be living in the wilderness for
10 days whilst writing a novel on a laptop or tablet? That's about the one use
for this battery that I can foresee.

For the average Joe, this thing isn't going to be doing much traveling. And if
it's not traveling, it's sitting on a counter not too far away from a wall
socket.

As for taking it on a plane -- most plane trips aren't long enough to warrant
a super-battery. Devices these days can last 6-8 hours between charges, and if
they don't, there are all sorts of cheaper solutions. I have a $20 lipstick-
size battery that's good enough to keep a phone or tablet in business for a
few extra hours.

I'm afraid I just don't see the point of this product as it is. But I hope
they keep doing research, and learn how to shrink it down until it's truly
portable.

~~~
Derpdiherp
I can kind of see it, touring on my motorbike I'd use one of these for
charging whilst camping. Unfortunately I just can't justify that price tag.

------
underyx
The kerning in that video looks as if the creators dragged and dropped the
letters on there one by one.

------
dingdingdang
Yes.. but its just a lot of heavy lithium batteries stuffed in a metal
casing.. with a power draining LED to boot? Also, like nakedrobot2 say
elsewhere, why only USB?

------
jedanbik
I like the LED status lights, but I don't like the skeumorphic cylindrical
battery shape. Batteries get away with it because you put them into something.
This thing will just continue to fall down or roll around.

------
userbinator
Not sure what I get what all the hype on the site is about. It's a big
rechargeable battery you can use to power all your USB things... ok this one
supports USB-PD (how many devices support that?) but is that really that big
of a deal? Right now it looks like a solution looking for a problem.

The idea of negotiating _voltage_ (up to 20V) just doesn't seem all that great
to me: consider a failure mode that lets the full 20V into USB devices
designed for only 5, like the majority are.

~~~
alexkiritz
USB Power Delivery starts out at 5V. Voltage is only increased when a signal
is received from a device requesting more than 5V and after the devices
confirm that the cable is capable of carrying the power.

------
jaynos
Why have two websites? That would seem to be a bad idea from a branding
perspective. Why not www.trontium.com and talk.trontium.com?

------
TorKlingberg
The interesting part here is that it uses the new USB "Power Delivery"
standard, that can switch to 20V instead of the normal 5V. This allows up to
100W of power from one USB port. It could power laptops and other somewhat
power hungry devices, once they have USB power input.

~~~
bryanlarsen
Or you buy the appropriate adapter cable.

~~~
nwh
My MacBook would need 18A @ 5v + 10% loss in the DCDC, that's one hell of a
thick power connector.

~~~
bryanlarsen
Which is one reason why the trontium can supply up to 20V.

~~~
nwh
I know. I was demonstrating why it wouldn't be a 5v supply rather a 20v one.

------
blt
The protruding sheet metal on the end caps says "prototype". It doesn't have
the refined quality that the price tag suggests. The edge looks like it came
straight off a sheet metal shear. At least put a nice machined edge on it.

~~~
alexkiritz
That lip is so you can screw a clear plastic endcap on and use it underwater.

------
Robby2012
Wow. This seems like a direct competitor of Gbatteries (YC W14). Link to
discussion on Gbatteries:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7459435](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7459435)

~~~
sz4kerto
Except this team does not seem have problems with math 101. It's 'just'
promises a well-designed, cleverly thought out product.

I like it, to be honest.

~~~
fastball
I don't understand the first line of your comment.

Mind clarifying?

------
todd8
My favorite part:

> We are working on an inexpensive add on that will allow control of the
> lighting function underwater

------
JoeAltmaier
Fits in a backpack water-bottle sleeve -cool!

------
maaarghk
The LEDs seem a bit excessive, and for $299... well. Good luck though, hope it
goes well!

------
salem
I wonder how long until Apple makes an official USB Power Delivery adapter for
MacBooks.

------
danielweber
How are you the first "USB Power Delivery battery"? What's a Mophie?

~~~
unwind
Note that Power Delivery here is not just using Marketing Caps, it's an actual
thing. See
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USB#USB_Power_Delivery](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USB#USB_Power_Delivery).
It's very new, based on USB 3.0, so it is probably a valid claim.

I wonder if this will sprout a power supply accessory, i.e. a device that
speaks to a USB PD source and lets you locally set the output voltage to
whatever you need. That way you could use the PD source to charge "legacy"
products that don't support PD.

~~~
Timshel
It does : [https://trontium.com/answers/](https://trontium.com/answers/)

------
theorique
How is this even legal, if it contains actual trontium?

Who wants to walk around with a radioactive material in your pocket,
irradiating your genitals?

Scary idea.

~~~
simonh
Er, what's trontium again? Must have missed that in Chemistry 101.

~~~
theorique
I think it's an extra heavy isotope of turbinium that is made in neutron
stars.

"get your ass to Mars"

