
Ask HN: Do you use creatine as a brain supplement? - newsignup
It is supposed to have added functions of supplementing brain functions, do you have any personal experience with it?<p>earlier discussion (2010): https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=1198116
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opportune
On a related note I'd like to say that you should in general be very wary of
any substance that people claim to be a "nootropic" or to otherwise improve
cognitive functions. A lot of the studies that these claims are based on are
1) funded by groups that would see benefit from the claims (supplement
industry), 2) not reproducible / are one off studies / show statistically
insignificant results given the sample size, or 3) simply based on shitty
science.

For example, in the article found at the link, note that they only examined 45
people, all of whom were vegetarians (who are much more likely to be creatine
deficient due to their diets). Although the subjects were consuming more
creatine than the vast majority of meat eaters would consume naturally, since
the authors didn't experiment with other doses (e.g. 1-2g a day, more
accurately mirroring the diet of those that consistently eat meat) there's no
telling whether consuming extra creatine will actually benefit your cognitive
abilities if you are already regularly eating meat.

~~~
Bartweiss
This is true, and a good warning. There's a whole industry of stuff like
AlphaBrain out there that's dubiously effective, understudied, under-tested
for purity, and generally scary. But I also think there's an awful lot of
literature about most single-substance nootropics. It's the complex stacks
that are totally unstudied.

Creatine, for instance, has been studied for mental effects a bunch of times -
the answers all seem to line up on "can definitely help some people, but
probably insignificant to most". Other substances shake out similarly - the
data on bacopa is inconclusive, but the studies are numerous enough to suggest
that the inconclusiveness is about a very weak or situational effect, not a
lack of literature.

The vegetarian point does touch on my larger concern, though: people talk like
studies finding weak 'average effects' mean the drug is universally effective,
but low-powered. That's possible, but it seems more likely that there are lots
of drugs which are situationally powerful (e.g. based on diet or genetics) and
hardly any that are good for everyone. Creatine is obvious, and I kind of
suspect cholinergics and bacopa for this also. Gwern is really good about
acknowledging that his studies (of n=1) aren't being designed to apply to
anyone else, but most people don't offer that caveat.

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ggreer
As with most nootropics, Gwern has done the research.[1] Summary: creatine
probably doesn't do anything for cognition. It might help some vegetarians.

1\. [https://www.gwern.net/Creatine](https://www.gwern.net/Creatine)

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jdavis703
Most of the studies that show an intelligence improvement were done on
vegetarians (look it up at examine.org), which I am so YMMV. When I'm already
feeling sluggish it seems to help with "brain fog." But I think I could
improve this by eating a more balanced diet, no creatine needed.

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45h34jh53k4j
My current nootropic stack is:

* Pramiracetam 500mg * Alpha GPC 50% 600mg * Noopept 10mg * Agmatine Sulfate 500mg

I am convinced that these chemicals work, improve mental ability,
memory/recall and focus. Ive found myself able to handle more task
simultaneously, even able to understand to multiple conflicting conversations.

If you can handle the awful taste of Pramiracetam (its bad... probably the
worst thing ive ever tasted) you may find quite the boost in awareness. Some
may find it too intense. In general nootropics are non-addictive, especially
with the awful taste of Pram, you might need to force yourself to take them...

~~~
mrleinad
Thanks for this! Didn't know about Pramiracetam, and it seems I can get it
online.

I'm already taking Modafinil, so I might experiment with taking Pramiracetam
as well, see if I can get an extra boost.

~~~
45h34jh53k4j
Give it a try! Do stack it with Alpha GPC, you will need a cholinergic
compound with the racetam family or else you will get headaches.

~~~
loxs
Wow, I'm honestly impressed with the level of experimentation you are willing
to do on yourself. Do you have good enough confidence/knowledge to be sure you
will not damage yourself for the long term?

~~~
bauer
As far as nootropics go, his choices are on the conservative side. Racetams
have a relatively good safety profile, and Choline is naturally found in
common food.

~~~
extra88
> naturally found in common food

Yes, but that doesn't mean the form found in supplements is the same. Also,
"the dose makes the poison."

In the Nineties, Wired and Mondo 2000 were good for piquing interest in
nootropics but as they didn't seem to catch on (aside from off-label use of
pharmaceuticals like Adderall), I put them in the same mental bin as all
supplements; not worth one's time except for individuals who have documented
deficiencies.

------
jbdigriz
I very much doubt you'll see any fugitive enhancement and in the two decades
I've been cycling on and off supplemental Creatine for my workout regime, I
can't speak for any such gains.

Creatine is both synthesized by the body and consumed in meat. The vast
majority of it goes into skeletal muscles where it functions as an ATP
recycling compound, something these cells consume a lot of. Small amounts are
found inn the blood and brain add well but not nearly as much.

It may provide a small boost if you're low on blood sugar simply from
providing some extra energy and drawing water into the cell - but it's not
much more than you would get from simply consuming energy rich compounds like
sugars or carbohydrates. It does certainly provide significant physical
performance enhancement by increasing endurance, reducing muscle fatigue and
generally providing greater muscle "pump" from it's cell volumizing qualities.
Thus I'd say that the only cognitive gains one would experience would be from
the added satisfaction coming from better performance and improved physique -
ie. A placebo effect of sorts. However, depending on the importance of
physical fitness to an individual, this can be substantial. My improved
workouts and increased strength definitely put me in a much better mood and
provide greater motivation for my intellectual endeavors. Ironically, because
it can supercharge workouts, it can leave one with substantial mental fatigue
immediately after such workouts at which point you're better off taking a
break to recover before doing any mentally intense stuff

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jccalhoun
So it is supposed to be a brain supplement now? Back in the mid to late 90s I
knew people that took it to try to get bigger muscles.

~~~
Bartweiss
It definitely does that, and it's the reason creatine is cheap and common. But
there's a long-standing question about whether creatine supplements are also
psychoactive - the best data seems to suggest "yes if you're deficient, but if
you're not then supplementing primarily affects your body".

------
fogleman
I do not. Nor any other "brain supplement."

------
snowcrshd
AFAIK, there's nothing conclusive about supplementing brain functions.
Examine.com has a good write up on creatine [1].

I've used creatine with the goal of increasing performance in strength
training. I guess I'm a non-responder, 'cause there was no noticeable gains in
performance for me.

[1]
[https://examine.com/supplements/creatine/](https://examine.com/supplements/creatine/)

------
hannesfostie
I've been using a daily dose of 5g of creatine for several months to help with
climbing. Maybe I'm a non-responder, or maybe the effects are too subtle, but
I haven't noticed anything. Definitely nothing in terms of brain functions or
what not.

It's cheap enough to continue to do it though, so I kind of keep at it.

~~~
NDizzle
Have you tried creatine loading? Take 20 to 25g per day for a week, then take
5g/day for a month. Take a few weeks off and do it again. That's what I've
done in the past when I was taking creatine for a recovery enhancer.

~~~
penetrarthur
There was a research that concluded that after a month, there is no difference
in creatine amount in blood if you've been loading or just taking 5g daily.

~~~
Bartweiss
I've only ever heard of creatine loading as a way of getting an early
kickstart for workouts. I didn't think it was even supposed to help in the 1+
month window, just get you better training results for a week or two up front.

------
mrleinad
Well, I didn't know that. Maybe I should expect a rise on my cog-skills now
that I started taking it last week for exercise.

On a side note: As others pointed out, Modafinil is really what you want if
you need a brain supplement. I've been taking it since November last year on a
daily basis (100 milligrams, half a pill) and I can say that I've been able to
make a lot of progress to actively stop procrastination. It's not magic, I
still struggle with it a lot, but I've been able to manage it and build a
routine of meditation and exercise that I hadn't been able to build before
(I'm 35 y/o). There's a lot of work left to get to point where I can say I've
actually won and I'm not a procrastinator anymore, but this year so far will
be one of the most productive I've ever had.

~~~
wmil
But Modafinil as a brain supplement isn't an FDA approved use and doctors
generally won't prescribe it.

Creatine is available at any health food or supplement store, it's legal and
widely available.

~~~
mrleinad
Yeah, that's true.

I live in Argentina and Modafinil can't be bought without a prescription. My
doctor prescribed it to me (just for the sake of getting a discount when
buying it, I was going to keep getting it from a shady pharmacist anyway)

------
notyourwork
For anyone who is considering creatine, you need to be sure to properly
hydrate. I am not aware of any cognitive benefits, there are most certainly
physical benefits to it. Regardless though, if you are consistently taking
creatine hydration is extremely important.

------
FranOntanaya
For the sake of sample accuracy -- I don't.

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jmnicolas
No creatine, but I'd like to profit of this occasion to tell people that
suffer from allergies to try high doses (several grams 1) of vitamin C. This
has been a life changer, I can now mow the lawn without symptoms where even
with antihistamines it wasn't possible (last year my father had to do it for
me).

I'm sharing it here because I wish I knew about vitamin C 30 years ago.

1- buy it in bulk powder form this will be much cheaper (I paid 38€ for 1 kg)

~~~
maaark
It's possible to overdose on Vit C. Please be careful.

~~~
empressplay
Actually it's not. You just pee it out.

~~~
KiwiCoder
Taking large amounts (more than 1,000mg per day) of vitamin C can cause
stomach pain, diarrhoea, flatulence.

Source: [http://www.nhs.uk/Conditions/vitamins-
minerals/Pages/Vitamin...](http://www.nhs.uk/Conditions/vitamins-
minerals/Pages/Vitamin-C.aspx)

------
diyseguy
I'm having good luck with caffeine + l-theanine + l-tyrosine.

I occasionally use nicergoline which I really like, however if I use it too
many days and then skip, I get a headache - much like caffeine withdrawal.

At night I sometimes use rutaecarpine to deactivate any late-afternoon
caffeine - though after a few days of continued use - it tends to render
caffeine ineffective.

------
Kiro
I've tried a lot of nootropics and I have yet to find something that gives me
any effect, at all. Either I'm a non-responder or I have too high expectations
since I compare it to proper drugs. I'm used to being blown out of my mind and
body when taking substances.

------
lawless123
I have found creatine gives me much more energy. not specifically a brain
supplement but it seems good overall.

I should add i don't eat much meat most of the the time, and i don't get
enough sleep. So it may just be bringing me back to a normal.

------
dsego
DMAE and modafinil. Modafinil has very noticeable effects on alertness. DMAE
is more subtle, but I think it improves focus, I feel like I type faster for
example. Usually my fingers are very lazy otherwise.

------
nullbites
I've heard there is research that it improves cognizance in dementia patients.
Here's a google dork because I can't find what study I am talking about:

site:*.edu -intitle:muscle creatine dementia study

~~~
foepys
Just a tip: if you are specifically searching for papers, you can use
[https://scholar.google.com](https://scholar.google.com). this way you will
find more than just American studies. Sci-hub helps with getting the papers if
there isn't a source already.

------
thearn4
Caffeine and walk breaks every hour or two work pretty well for me.

~~~
lallysingh
The legs help pump a lot of blood. That helps me think.

------
brad0
This is interesting! I only knew it as a muscle building supplement.

It's role is to store water inside your muscles, making them larger. I don't
know of any effects on the brain and I would be cautious of taking something
that it wasn't made for.

In saying that there's been a number of cases where pharmaceutical products
were developed for one issue but the side effects ended up being the actual
product.

I was taking a high load of creatine for body building six months after a
major concussion (motorbike accident). I can't say that I noticed any change
in brain function.

Where did you hear that creatine affects brain function?

~~~
Bartweiss
Creatine concentrations are highest by far in muscles, but it also distributes
throughout the blood and brain.

Creatine phosphate is part of a reaction making ATP use effective
(specifically: it allows rapid conversion of ADP to ATP during times of high
demand). This is necessary for basic functioning - we synthesize creatine
naturally and also absorb it from our diet. Supplementing it enables using
muscles for a longer period without exhaustion, and helps you reach the
boundaries of muscular strength before you reach energy limits.

The proposed mechanism of improved brain functioning is, interestingly, the
same as the muscular mechanism. During times of high demand, creatine improves
ATP regeneration rates. The ATP cycle happens the same way in the brain, so
creatine can play the same role there. This claim is nothing new, it was for
instance studied back in 2003 here:
[http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1691485/pdf/1456...](http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1691485/pdf/14561278.pdf)).

There's no mysterious second effect here - we know for certain that creatine
plays the same role in the brain and muscles. (We also know what that effect
is - it wouldn't have any relationship to physical damage sustained in a
concussion.) The outstanding questions are whether improving ATP cycling in
the brain has a meaningful impact on performance, and whether safe creatine
supplementation changes neurological PCr levels enough to cause that benefit.

------
sn9
If you're thinking of supplementing nootropics and haven't taken the time to
seriously address sleep (quality and quantity), diet, and exercise, you're
wasting your time and missing the biggest ROI variables. (After those three
factors, I'd include regular meditation before even bothering with
nootropics.)

That said, there are plenty of other well-documented benefits to creatine
supplementation as documented on sites like examine.com (linked elsewhere in
this thread).

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9gunpi
That intelligence-boosting powder that's the basis for super-findings of gym
broscience?

~~~
notyourwork
Creatine for physical exercise is not broscience, it has been shown to provide
benefits. Whether it helps with cognitive functionality is not something I am
familiar with.

~~~
9gunpi
Indeed. But many broscience PhDs are quite big on creatine, I heard.

