

EFF Wins Protection for Time Zone Database - taylorbuley
https://www.eff.org/press/releases/eff-wins-protection-time-zone-database

======
polemic
Seems like now would be a good time to:

<https://supporters.eff.org/join>, <https://supporters.eff.org/donate> or
<https://supporters.eff.org/shop>

~~~
jonhendry
True.

But to be honest, the apology and climb down were pretty decent too. All too
often these things are dragged out and fought tooth and nail, to nobody's
benefit but the lawyers.

Which is to say, the astrology people seem to be pretty decent folks about it,
not SCO-type bipedal hagfish in 3-piece suits, or Rightshaven-style copyright
sharks with a business model based on IP lawsuits.

If I knew anyone who were into astrology-type things, I think I might order
them something from Astrolabe, as a small reward for the good behavior in
dropping the suit.

Ignoring for a moment the question of whether IP is valid as a concept: if
they were misinformed that they had a case, and that their IP had been widely
misappropriated without compensation, they probably thought they were in the
right. And I'm not sure I can fault them for doing so, given the advice they
were likely given.

Whoever gave them the bad legal advice might have led them to believe they
were on to a legal jackpot. It doesn't seem to be a big, money-spinning
operation, so the case might have offered the possibility of a more
comfortable old age for these people.

A little extra business from appreciative tech types would help lessen the
sting.

~~~
jonknee
> Which is to say, the astrology people seem to be pretty decent folks about
> it, not SCO-type bipedal hagfish in 3-piece suits, or Rightshaven-style
> copyright sharks with a business model based on IP lawsuits. > If I knew
> anyone who were into astrology-type things, I think I might order them
> something from Astrolabe, as a small reward for the good behavior in
> dropping the suit.

Regardless of stepping down, it was an obviously frivolous suit in the first
place. Backing down from BS threats isn't something that should be commended,
not ever making them in the first place should be. Who would ever think that
time zones are copyrightable _and_ have the cojones to sue over it? An absurd
and a waste of everyone's time.

Update: I just read the complaint and their attorney uses her Gmail address
for official business. What a joke. Go figure that an astrology company has a
fly by night attorney filing obviously BS lawsuits.

~~~
mkopinsky
Better than AOL.....

------
lsb
Why is there no penalty? Lawyers wasted a lot of billable hours over a suit
filed over a copyright claim on facts. If there's no penalty for such
frivolous claims, we'll keep having to fight the same fight, wasting money
along the way.

~~~
ggchappell
That's a good question. The article seems to indicate that there was _almost_
a penalty.

FTA:

> In January, EFF advised Astrolabe that Olson and Eggert would move for
> sanctions if Astrolabe did not withdraw its complaint. Today's dismissal
> followed.

In other words, the complaint was dropped only after penalties were
threatened.

Thinking about this issue, I see your point, but I'm not sure how far in that
direction we should go. In particular, we don't want to create a mechanism
that can easily be used to punish whistle-blowers (for example), simply by
finding someone willing to declare their complaint to be frivolous.

~~~
notatoad
frivolous is one thing, fraudulent is another. they filed a copyright claim on
information that not only do they not own, information that it is not possible
to own. this sort of behaviour should be punished.

~~~
marshray
If anyone should be punished, it's the lawyers who enabled them to persist in
this course of action.

Perhaps basic facts can't be copyrighted, but sometimes collections of facts
are given some protection. The telephone directory is a classic example.

Given the sincerity of the apology, I think it was a honest mistake and a
welcome example of the legal system working the way it should.

At least _after_ EFF is on the case. We should go donate to them. Right now.

~~~
bhickey
You have your example backward. Feist v. Rural held that telephone books are
not subject to copyright. Just because something was laborious to compile does
not make it copyrightable.

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feist_v._Rural>

~~~
carbocation
In the US.

In Europe, the law differs. Specifically, 'sweat of the brow', rejected by
Feist in the US, is a factor in Europe:
<http://www.bitlaw.com/copyright/database.html#directive>

------
mattdeboard
I love the apology because it sounds exactly like the apology of a man (or
organization) who has had it explained to him exactly what a very very bad
position his activities have put him in. Really like seeing a complete apology
unlike the "We apologize if we caused any discomfort..." ambivalent BS we see
all the time.

~~~
jacques_chester
I've seen those referred to as "Notpologies":
<http://skepticlawyer.com.au/2012/02/23/the-notpology/>

~~~
andyjohnson0
Also <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-apology_apology>

------
click170
Obviously the lawsuit was a non-starter, any company that realized this would
retract the complaint, but I was impressed by the apology. It seems like in
every suit I hear about where the company was wrong, they lose the case but
still try to say they did nothing wrong and refuse to apologize. I was
impressed this company did.

------
dylanvee
Dr. Eggert is a lecturer at UCLA, and a fantastic one at that (not to mention
a huge contributor to various GNU projects). This quarter I have the pleasure
of taking his Operating Systems class, and last year I got to take Programming
Languages taught by him. I'm really happy about this outcome because people
like him should never have to have their brilliance tempered by patent trolls.

~~~
gnucarsmell
Long time lurker here. Finally made an account to back up my man Professor
Eggert! What an awesome guy and a great teacher. His classes are insanely
hard: you cried, you contemplated suicide, then homicide, then you LEARNED...
A TON. I wish he would record his lectures and put them up for the world to
see.

Also I'm glad to see my membership fees being put to good use. Also, "hello
world."

~~~
dylanvee
Excellently put! I've spent so many nights holed up in the library, staring at
a dozen lines of some esoteric programming language and cursing UCLA
Engineering, but it all turned out to be incredibly valuable and I wouldn't
trade it for anything.

------
nkassis
So that actually raises a question in my mind, does that make all database
that don't include something new created by someone (I'm thinking book
database, research databases) as non copyrightable?

I'm thinking of phone books as an example.

~~~
rmc
I think it depends. I'm pretty sure phone books and street directories are
copyrightable. You can get copyright on collections of facts, this is how a
phone book is copyrightable.

~~~
looperator
Actually, you can't copyright all of a phone book. In Feist Publications v.
Rural Telephone Service Co. (499 U.S. 340), the Supreme Court said that the
"white-pages" part of a phone book had so little application of creativity
that it was _not_ copyrightable.

------
Matt_Rose
Does this mean that TZ database is back at elsie.nih.gov?

~~~
kijeda
No. The database was already in the process of being transitioned to IANA
prior to the lawsuit. The lawsuit just accelerated the transition. It is now
at <http://www.iana.org/time-zones>

------
dlitz
What's the deal with these "covenants not to sue", lately, and how are they
different from actual licenses?

My guess is that such covenants would not be binding on third parties who buy
the underlying copyright/patent rights, but I don't really know.

------
figital
Hopefully this is true these days:
[http://dearrichblog.blogspot.com/2012/02/can-we-republish-
sp...](http://dearrichblog.blogspot.com/2012/02/can-we-republish-sports-
statistics.html)

------
jakejake
I'm really glad this has been resolved. Now I just wish there was an easier
way to use the database. Have you ever had to code something with timezone
awareness..? It's kinda nuts.

~~~
brazzy
I've had to do that in Java and found the API perfectly usable, more so with
Joda Time. That may be different for your platform. But what's really nuts is
the domain itself, like most where history and politics are involved.

