
CNN Reports Diaspora's Ilya Zhitomirskiy Committed Suicide - bproper
http://money.cnn.com/2011/11/14/technology/diaspora_cofounder_died/
======
tibbon
This whole thing makes me feel terrible.

I didn't know Ilya well, but I did know him. I wish I had known that he was in
a bad situation personally that led to this. I wish I could have helped. My
last trip to SF in September was really busy and I didn't get to hang out with
him. He even offerred me his couch to crash on, but I didn't take him up on
the offer.

We meant to do some pair programming back in July, but things got busy and I
didn't followup on the invitation. He invited me to an awesome party in April,
but I didn't end up going as I'd needed to fly from Ohio there, but I can't
help wishing that I'd done it anyway.

So I just feel terrible frankly that I mistakenly turned down interacting with
him. Would have we had some conversation that would have changed his opinion
on things? Given him some new hope?

Clearly, I know this isn't anyone's fault, but in retrospect its hard not to
wish that anyone was able to do more.

I suppose the only thing to do in the future is to always prioritize time with
people as the #1 thing. In retrospect, nothing else I could have been doing
was more important.

~~~
mortenjorck
_So I just feel terrible frankly that I mistakenly turned down interacting
with him. Would have we had some conversation that would have changed his
opinion on things? Given him some new hope?_

This is a very human reaction, but please don't let yourself get hung up on
this line of thinking. Heroic intervention is something we tend to
overestimate. What you can do is to be there for the people you know well.
When someone's hurting, be generous with your time; be someone they can turn
to. If you ever think someone's at risk, know what to look for and know where
to turn.

~~~
maeon3
I disagree, suicide is selected into the genome to get useless parts to self
destruct. Like how skin cells have to shift around to service the whole. He
was reaching out to everywhere he could looking for validation and found none.
Mixed with a stiff upper lip and a lack of desire to show weakness is a recipe
for a feedback loop of perceived irrelevance. When all around you use actions
to indicate that you are a burden, not an asset. Freeing up resources is good
for the hive. he loved the collective, too much.

Your no's were part of the feedback loop, you couldnt have known the magnitude
of what was happening, but your actions are part of his decision. Healing from
this will take honesty, you can delude others but not yourself.

You are a part of it, but it wasn't your responsibility.

~~~
buss
Ugh, do not listen to opinions like this.

You show a fundamental ignorance of human psychology and the effects of
depression on an otherwise healthy mind.

~~~
fennecfoxen
He also shows a fundamental ignorance of evolutionary pressures, and basically
makes up a story that fits his prejudices. There is, of course, much precedent
for this in human history; for example, to demonstrate how black people were
racially inferior.

It's a fundamentally anti-scientific thing to do.

------
codybrown
I know this is an open forum but these threads are getting hard to read.
Copycat suicides are a real phenomenon and some responses, however genuine and
well intentioned, can make them more likely to occur.

Department of Health Recommendations for Covering Suicide. Do not apportion
blame. Do not give simple reasons. Do not glorify.

Read more here:

[http://www.who.int/mental_health/prevention/suicide/resource...](http://www.who.int/mental_health/prevention/suicide/resource_media.pdf)

[http://www.scribd.com/doc/126241/WHO-Media-Guide-for-
Suicide...](http://www.scribd.com/doc/126241/WHO-Media-Guide-for-Suicide-
Reporting)

------
viggity
Please, if suicide has crossed your mind, please, please, please find help. I
had a fraternity brother commit suicide and you have _no_ idea how much you'll
be missed.

Help is out there and it is free.

<http://www.suicidepreventionlifeline.org/>

~~~
VladRussian
so, we create hell on earth for other people and when these people decide to
leave the hell, we caringly, with all the good emotions in in the voice, say
"please don't do it". You must be kidding.

How about just looking around and honestly answering simple question - whose
hell today i'm part of ? One don't need to be an active or the most painful
part, being just a part, a silent brick in the wall, is enough. And may be, if
one has enough brains and courage, to refuse to be the part of the hell, just
for one person, just for one day.

And, yes, two decades ago during student years, 3 persons i personally knew
very well made the decision, and i respect it. They made the biggest decision
in their life, and i'd not disrespect it with "what if"s or "they should have
reach for the help" or with any other trash like this...

~~~
Cushman
Get out of here with that. Maybe there are circumstances, in times of horrible
war or famine or terminal illness, where suicide is the necessary step to end
suffering. Maybe that's hell; I wouldn't know. I hope not to.

But I know depression. Depression feels like hell, but it's not. It's a
treatable disease. Killing yourself to escape depression is like killing
yourself to escape pneumonia instead of going to the hospital.

You should not respect that decision. You should help that person to get
better.

~~~
VladRussian
what depression has to do with it? this is exactly kind of disrespect i was
talking about. To immediately declare the person to be psychologically ill
just because of our deepest fear of what may happen if we accept that ending
your own life may be a rational well-thought off decision. It is easy to blame
the person's imaginary illness instead of accepting responsibility that human
society normally creates conditions when such a decision can be a rational
well-thought off one.

~~~
Cushman
No.

People like you, who think that mental illness which is every bit as real as a
broken arm is "imaginary" just because you can't _see_ anything wrong, are one
of the very worst parts of human society. _You_ are part of the reason,
probably the main reason, life is so hard for the mentally ill.

I really shouldn't have to explain this to you, as a great deal has been
written on the subject in the past several decades. I beg of you, as a
sometime depression sufferer, please go read up on this. Your ignorance hurts
humanity.

If you are not ignorant, but simply unwilling to educate yourself, then please
take your insane ideology back to the Dark Ages where it belongs.

~~~
VladRussian
>People like you, who think that mental illness which is every bit as real as
a broken arm is "imaginary"

sorry, man, you've just produced non sequtuir as i never said that mental
illnesses are "imaginary".

I said that the statement - "if suicide then necessarily mental illness" - is
false in my view. Such statement being false doesn't necessarily means that
mental illnesses are imaginary nor that some suicides are result of real
mental illnesses.

~~~
skore
You have started this discussion on the argument that "we create hell on earth
for other people" which is about as unfounded as Cushman jumping to the
conclusion that it was depression that caused this suicide, before the facts
are in.

As it stands, you both have about the same amount of rationality in your
argument while Cushman certainly has the numbers on his side - Mental Illness
certainly is the leading cause of suicide:

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide#Risk_factors>

"Clinical studies have shown that underlying mental disorders are present in
87% to 98% of suicides"

So I think Cushman is right - there is no use for your argument in this
discussion and all that stands is a misunderstanding about your choice of
words on "imaginary" (which I understood the same way that Cushman did - you
clearly didn't choose your words wisely there and were bound to be
misunderstood).

~~~
noibl
> certainly has the numbers on his side

That statistic presents a somewhat circular logic, with drug abuse (mainly
alcohol) and mood disorders (depression: uni-/bi-polar) making up the bulk of
the 'mental disorders' figure (FTA). Since feelings of worthlessness and
suicidal thoughts are used to diagnose depressive disorders in the first place
and since drug abuse is acknowledged to often be a form of self-medication for
undiagnosed depression, blaming 'mental disorders' clearly begs the question
in a large number of cases.

The literature shows that environmental factors play a major role in causing
and aggravating these illnesses and behaviours. I believe this is the point
that VladRussian was making and it's not so easily dismissed with 'numbers'.
Likewise, the very large proportion of suicides which come after a clinical
diagnosis (and presumably some kind of treatment) doesn't inspire much faith
in the 'just go and get yourself sorted out' line of advice.

I find it disturbing that in a discussion on this topic, someone advocating
being kinder to people in general, and perhaps certain people in particular,
would be subjected to the kind of insults that Cushman has used.

~~~
skore
I would say that both sides of the argument that VladRussian started have a
point but equally lack civility: viggity simply linked to a suicide prevention
site and VladRussian lashed out how somebody dare to ask for suicidal people
to seek help when it's society at fault. Cushman took offense and implied that
depression is the culprit here. Cue further misunderstanding about the wording
of "imaginary".

I think both sides are projecting their own view a little too hard on this.

Environmental factors surely are a factor in this and I was 'quoting numbers'
because VladRussian was a little to quick to dismiss mental illness. Again -
since we all don't know the details in this particular case, this is an
abstract discussion about suicide. In an abstract discussion, you either make
a case and discuss it, or you discuss one that another person has made.
VladRussian simply picked a fight and Cushman bought into it.

Also, re: circular logic. I don't think it is circular - Suicidal thoughts may
be a symptom of depression, but that's not the same as saying they are a cause
of depression. I know you don't say that either, but that's what would make it
circular. (Also: saying it's 'somewhat circular' is a cop-out - it either is,
or isn't circular.) I further don't think mental disorders really are "blamed"
for suicide, they are simply accepted as a very common pathway in medical
studies.

~~~
noibl
To say that a suicide was caused by depression and that we knew the person was
depressed because they claimed to be suicidal is circular. I qualified the
term because there are other components to that statistic which it would be
wrong to discount. (I don't believe anyone in this subthread has done that.)

~~~
skore
No, that is simply not logical and nobody is arguing it. Again - a claim to
have suicidal thoughts is a factor in diagnosing depression. Acting on those
thoughts leads to actual suicide. That does not imply that suicidal thoughts
were the reason why somebody became depressed.

Here is what would be a perfectly circular argument:

Somebody commits suicide. Society looks for a reason of that suicide. They
figure out that the person was depressed. But why was he depressed? Turns out,
he was suicidal.

But that's not what is being argued:

Somebody is depressed. So much depressed, that the person has suicidal
thoughts. The person commits suicide. Society correctly assesses that his
depression was the main cause in committing suicide. This is apparent, because
it was in depression that suicidal thoughts appeared.

------
maxklein
Internet criticism can be very hurtful. A simple way to prevent further
startup suicides is that when you see someone being heavily criticized, or
when you see a startup that is being criticized a lot, send them an email
supporting them and offering to listen to their side of the story. Even if the
people are not suicidal, it can help them through a difficult time and
motivate them to continue to do good stuff.

The reality of the situation right now in the startup world is that when
people hear you are making x amount/month, you get 500 emails, but when the
tables turn and you are suddenly on the receiving end of heavy criticism, you
get zero emails.

~~~
goatforce5
Is it just speculation that his suicide relates to his work life?

(And not, say, girl/health/money problems...)

~~~
vaksel
money problems would definitely fall under work life for startups.

Girl/health problems might fall as well, since the work/life balance is so
crappy

------
subpixel
I hope Ilya is at peace. I'd like to speak to anyone who might feel, now or in
the future, as desperate as Ilya must have.

Please consider this: by nature our own pain and suffering strikes us as
intensely personal and private, but the truth is the experience is universal.
For different reasons, at different times in our lives, we all get served
heaping helpings of grief, desperation, regret, shame, disappointment -
sometimes all at once. And, in the case of people with depression, sometimes
for no discernible reason.

The most crushing aspect of depression and its cohorts is the false perception
that your pain is so diabolically personal that it cannot be shared or
understood, to say nothing of being addressed or overcome.

tl;dr you're never alone, in fact more people love and respect you than you
know - try to never forget that.

------
beatpanda
I've been reading comments on Hacker News since this happened, and I have to
say, you people sure have a funny definition of "failure".

<https://joindiaspora.com/tags/NewHere> – New users every one or two minutes.

<https://github.com/diaspora/diaspora/commits/> – Multiple commits, sometimes
dozens, every day, many from volunteers.

Would that I were fortunate enough to "fail" this well.

Attributing Ilya's suicide to "failure" is, to my eyes, condescending, and I
wish you all would stop it.

~~~
Achshar
When did you see the users and commits? did you account for the possibility
that This is due to the (unfortunate) publicity disphora got after
Zhitomirskiy passed away? i say wait a couple of weeks an then try again.

~~~
beatpanda
Seriously?

<https://github.com/diaspora/diaspora/commits?page=5>

------
invisiblefunnel
Diaspora commit: "Image for Ilya"
[https://github.com/diaspora/diaspora/commit/0c33791069010869...](https://github.com/diaspora/diaspora/commit/0c337910690108699dbe8fa7b3a481b06737cd96)

------
kamaal
One of the key things in dealing with failure really is not to worry too much
about what the world thinks about you or your failure. Not to succumb to peer
pressure. The society is ruthless in criticism towards people who take risks
and fail. They are sort of used up as examples for other people.

I have relatives, two of whom died out of extreme stress and tension(Heart
attack and Cancer) because they took loans beyond their means, were unable to
repay it back and put a huge burden on their dependents. This is one example
of taking risks which people really can't sustain. None of which is needed.

Although you must not worry about the world, at the same time you must not
take unnecessary financial risks beyond your means. Because we are people and
we go through emotions, and sometimes for things beyond our control we are
responsible not just for our lives but for many other people around us. And
when we take huge risks, we put both ourselves and people around us under that
risk. Now when we can't deal with that risk and we fail, things go worse very
quickly and we commit suicide or die out of a disease(fallout of stress).

Nothing is more important than health, and being happy. Take calculated risks.
And if you fail, forget about it and start over.

Don't do things which put you in these situations at the first place. And if
you are in that situation, seek help and deal with it with it patiently.

------
Omnipresent
It is so important to realize where you stand in life. I'm sure many of us
would have loved to be in place of Ilya; In news all over at the age of 21.
Perhaps he did not realize this. A great loss.

~~~
ahoyhere
When you're depressed, fame, money, opportunities can be all the _more_
depressing _because they don't help you feel better_.

Unless you've been well-off, famous, respected, you can't understand just how
big a gulf there can be between what people see when they look at you, and
what you feel inside.

The bigger the gulf, the worse it feels.

~~~
fennecfoxen
So, I made a fair amount of money off my last job (the company's stock
plummeted, they repriced all the options, the price recovered), and I ended up
with a six-figure retirement account at age 26.

I'm certainly fortunate and it makes my life a bit less stressful, but it
doesn't keep me warm at night. It doesn't care about whether or not I had a
good day at work. I can't have an intellectually stimulating conversation with
it. And that's just a little bit of money. Fame would be even worse.

------
orky56
This is really sad news. It's ironic that in Silicon Valley, a place that
embraces failure, someone has misconstrued something and taken it too
personally. I hope Ilya has found peace.

------
imran
Why did paypal mysteriously freezed donations to diaspora?

~~~
Joeboy
Probably because they fell foul of some fraud/money laundering detection
heuristic by making too much in donations too quickly and/or not (in the
conventional sense) shipping a product.

------
grusk
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ilya_Zhitomirskiy>

~~~
suivix
I find it appalling that much of his notability is the fact he committed
suicide.

~~~
politician
Given the sensitive nature of this conversation, how is downvoting suivix's
comment justified?

------
joannemiller
Failure precedes success ... Ilya was too young to know he was almost there.
RIP shooting star.

------
theshiva
It seems that Ilya left behind a detailed suicide note.

<http://oobly.com/?p=530/>

I spoke to a person who was there when his mother called to check on him.
Tragic.

~~~
shalmanese
This is false.

~~~
theshiva
My source was there, in the house, in that bedroom.

~~~
21echoes
as one of the three people who found his body and the only one to read the
note before it was taken as evidence, please do not spread rumors like this. i
don't doubt that you have the best intentions, and may think you have the
facts straight, but the note was short and simple: "thank you to everyone who
was kind to me, this decision is purely my own".

EDIT: i just realized you are the author of the blog you linked to. PLEASE
take that post down. it is inaccurate in every possible way.

~~~
theshiva
Hi 21echoes,

I am sorry for your loss. I have deleted everything that I heard from my
source.

------
vaksel
what a waste, at 21 and with Diaspora on his resume, he could have gone on to
work at Google or Facebook, making $100K-$200K/yr. The skillset was there.

Sure it's not as much as owning the next Facebook...but it's plenty of money
to live a comfortable life...and nothing was stopping him from trying again in
a few years.

~~~
clarkevans
I think you completely misunderstand Ilya. He emphatically did not want to
work at Facebook for $100-$200K/year.

~~~
vaksel
Not everyone gets to be a dotcom millionaire...plenty of people have to work
for a living. And with his skillset, at least he didn't have to settle for a
$20K/yr job flipping burgers.

~~~
away
I think a lot of entrepreneurs would consider it a failure to have to work for
facebook or google for a living. It has very little to do with money.

~~~
10100101010101
indeed. as an employee, you have a price. you have expectations. as an
entrepreneur you have a dream. some entrepreneurs sell out and relinquish
their dream. maybe they find a new one. others will never sell out, as a
matter of principle. they are uncompromising in that regard.

------
theshiva
anyone knows how to delete a comment that has replies?

------
shareme
A question, I do not mean to be dramatic. But, is there some type of out-reach
program for start-up founders to prevent this sort of thing? Let us admit that
founding or working in a start-up is extremely stress-full compared to other
work or professional activities.

I know each one of us has a circle of friends that they have cultivated to
provide unconditional support so that when they need that its there. But even
when you do that you might hit obstacles that even overwhelm that.

~~~
davidhansen
_I know each one of us has a circle of friends that they have cultivated to
provide unconditional support so that when they need that its there._

This is a fairly strange assumption. Not everyone makes friends easily.

~~~
thomasgerbe
Especially in early startups where one works alone quite a lot of the time.
Very different than getting a job at a company.

~~~
billpatrianakos
Yes, very true. I'm one of those you're talking about. I'm a lone founder,
coder, sales team, accountant... I do it all. Alone. And it gets very very
depressing even when you're kicking ass and taking names it can get
depressing. I have little to no social life, my girlfriend couldn't handle my
new lifestyle and left me and no amount of success is enough. It's draining.
I'm not antisocial. I'm attractive, outgoing, and well liked but the job
becomes you and there are sacrifices. I'm even on the board of a charity
organization but that interaction isn't enough (everyone else is much older
than me on that board).

So you're right, man. Even when things are looking up it can sneak up on you.
I can only imagine what this poor guy went through. He set out to raise
$10,000 and exceeded it by far in under 2 weeks, gets thrown into the startup
spotlight, the pressure gets intense, and all the while he probably had the
mindset of someone doing something much smaller. Not to assume what his
thoughts were but it seems like he was just trying to something small and cool
and it grew far larger than anyone had anticipated so fast that wasn't enough
time to adjust and them that depression snuck in there and now he's gone.

It's so sad. I wonder if the lightning fast growth of Diaspora had anything to
do with it. I wonder what effect being in the spotlight can have on someone
unprepared for it.

~~~
thomasgerbe
I sympathize with you. I work on my own 99% of the time and it's a very tough
experience. It's the sacrifice one makes for 'the dream'

I'm sometimes jealous of the stories about Mark Zuckerberg and Kevin Rose
because at least they had a girlfriend to stick around while they were going
through the motions. Loneliness is a killer and I don't think friends/family
could possibly understand how difficult it is. Even when you describe it they
just shake their heads

I also agree with your assessment as it's something I've reiterated. I think
it's possible that if Diaspora never got as much media coverage (and built up
expectations), this wouldn't have happened. It may have exploded when it was
in beta (or not), but the potential disappointment wouldn't have been as
large. It's easy to step back and redefine success but in his shoes, I could
imagine myself having very grand visions of what Diaspora could be (as also
fostered by the coverage) and being crushed when it's not realized.

