
All NYC Subway Stations to Receive Wi-Fi by End of 2016 - jonbaer
http://www.mta.info/news-technology-governor-wi-fi/2016/01/08/new-rapid-approach-station-redevelopment-will-expedite
======
cballard
This might seem cool to people that aren't in NYC, but it's really not what we
need. We need more tracks, more tunnels, and more trains. Second Avenue Sagas,
the transit blog of record for NYC, is... more critical.

> wifi =/= building for the next 100 years. Massive subway expansion at
> reasonable costs is what's needed.

[https://twitter.com/2AvSagas/status/685484086614437889](https://twitter.com/2AvSagas/status/685484086614437889)

[https://twitter.com/2AvSagas/status/685564984668123136](https://twitter.com/2AvSagas/status/685564984668123136)

> I want to walk into a train station and never have to wait more than 3
> minutes for a train.

[https://twitter.com/2AvSagas/status/685537323124133890](https://twitter.com/2AvSagas/status/685537323124133890)

The other thing is that Cuomo tends to just drop these announcements without
any warning or planning. Sort of like the "throw it over the wall" model in
open-source.

~~~
hawkice
Sounds like 2nd Ave Sagas thinks a world class city should have a world class
public transit system. That is my main thought, having been a user of Chicago
and New York public transport: Why is this so much worse than e.g. Hong Kong?
WiFi isn't the right scale of $ investment to get there.

~~~
martingordon
I think it comes down to fares. You can travel between any two stations on the
subway for $2.75. In contrast, the HK metro charges a fare between ~$0.50 to
$7.00 depending on destination. Many other metro systems across the world use
a zone-based fare scheme as well.

There's always a public outcry when MTA announces they're going to raise
fares, and any attempt to introduce a distance/zone-based fare would be
denounced as unduly burdensome on the poor, since they tend to live further
out. In any case, I don't think the current MetroCard-based system could
support such a scheme anyway.

The number one thing to improve straphangers' "quality of travel" would be to
implement CBTC[1] so that we can get countdown clocks to remove the
uncertainty that comes with waiting for a train. If I know the next train is
coming in 15 minutes, I can hang out above ground or by the stairs and use my
cell service rather than standing on the platform not knowing whether the next
train is 2 minutes or 20 minutes away.

1: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communications-
based_train_con...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communications-
based_train_control)

~~~
kevin_thibedeau
Metrocard is going to be replaced in the not too distant future. I wouldn't be
surprised if the next system has zones. They already have subsidized cards for
low income travelers so a fare hike will have less impact. That's the only way
they can begin to address their budget deficit issue.

~~~
potatolicious
Heavily disagreed - the budget deficit issue comes from a combination of state
refusal to properly fund the MTA, and the MTA's own shittastic (and more than
likely corrupt) processes for contracts that results in everything being
vastly more expensive than it should be.

Not to mention vastly more expensive than every other first-world
infrastructure project.

The problem with a zone system is that it effectively punishes the poor for
being too poor live near work. The further out in NYC you go the _less able_
people are to afford higher fares, but yet that is exactly what a zone system
does.

And like most other direct subsidies, the subsidized MetroCards are a
terrifyingly bad solution to this - for one thing in a zone system, even with
subsidies, the poor will still end up paying dramatically more than they do
today to get to work. Not only that, only the poorest of the poor even qualify
for these MetroCards, leaving out a vast income range for whom transit costs
are still a burden and a substantial portion of income.

A zone system with subsidies will likely end up looking like:

\- The extreme poor pay slightly more than they do today because of the
combination of living very far and subsidization.

\- The "merely" poor pay dramatically (possibly 2x+ multiples) more than they
do today because they are "too rich" to qualify for subsidization but yet live
at the outer reaches of the transit system.

\- Middle income individuals pay more than they do today, they don't qualify
for subsidy but they live > 1 zone from work.

\- Upper/upper middle class individuals pay similar or slightly more than they
do today, because they don't qualify for subsidy but are likely to live within
the same zone as work (i.e., Manhattan below 110th).

A zone system, even with subsidies, will be insanely regressive to the point
of comical absurdity.

Ignoring the fact that it's incredibly regressive, the zone system also won't
do much against the budget issues the MTA faces - if you're going to squeeze
someone for money you don't squeeze the residents of Brighton Beach or Bay
Ridge or Hunts Point or Elmhurst - they don't got any money left to be
squeezed out. Mid-low income families living in the far reaches of Brooklyn,
Queens, and the Bronx, for whom transit is already a high percentage of their
monthly budgets, have little left to give.

~~~
makerman1982
Very well reasoned! Thank you.

------
capkutay
Meanwhile, San Francisco can't muster the courage to build a station on top of
an existing tunnel boring site.

[http://www.socketsite.com/archives/2015/12/no-progress-
for-a...](http://www.socketsite.com/archives/2015/12/no-progress-for-a-subway-
extension-to-north-beach-and-a-setback.html)

------
hammock
They just put 4G in the Chicago subways a couple weeks ago. That seems like a
better solution than public WiFi, which you have to sign in to and is almost
always overloaded or poor signal.

~~~
shmerl
_> which you have to sign in to_

Why do you need to sign in into a public WiFi? Why can't it be open to
everyone?

~~~
colinbartlett
This is a free Hotspot wireless internet Service (the “Service”) provided by
Metropolitan Transit Authority (MTA) for use by customers of MTA. All users
are required to log-in individually as an independent user.

1\. Our agreement

1.1 This agreement applies from when we accept your request for Service.
Please read the terms carefully before activating Service with us.

1.2 By using and/or activating Service with us and/or clicking the accept
button on the login/registration page you agree to be bound by this agreement.
If you do not agree to the terms of the agreement, do not use the Service.

1.3 We may modify the agreement at any time. In accordance with clause 1.2,
use of the Service constitutes acceptance of the agreement current at that
point in time.

1.4 These Terms and Conditions do not alter in any way the terms or conditions
of any other agreement you may have with MTA for products, services or
otherwise. This agreement contains disclaimers and other provisions that limit
our liability to you.

... blah blah blah blah blah and on and on.

~~~
shmerl
In such case I'm not interested, thanks. It's enough that my mobile provider
tracks me, why would I need MTA to track me in addition?

~~~
hkmurakami
Because you're a foreign tourist who didn't get mobile internet access for
their trip to NYC.

------
embarcadero
I wonder how many of the people in the system the MTA/NYPD can identify in
real time and with what precision it can locate them. I presume they know the
identities of a large proportion through entrance swipes from credit/debit-
purchased metrocards, but that still leaves the problem of determining when
someone has exited and where they in the meantime.

Between the travel data they're storing on the metrocards (exhibit number one,
the Ebola doctor) and the ubiquitous cameras, I think the WiFi has more to do
with tracking the public than improving service.

~~~
jrcii
Don't forget the mics they setup all over the city
[http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3006019/Microphones-...](http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3006019/Microphones-
used-New-York-City-s-effort-combat-gun-crime-picked-people-s-street-
conversations-past.html)

~~~
embarcadero
Yeah, those, lamppost cameras, and mobile watchtowers.

------
13of40
I seem to recall using wifi on the Moscow metro two years ago, and not just
the stations, but the trains. Granted, some of the lines are still running
cars that were made in "Leningrad" in the 70's, but...I mean you'd expect NYC
trains to be made of castable diamond and levitating two inches above the
rails by this point, so it's surprising they're still catching up
electronically.

~~~
rst
The oldest cars in the current NYC subway fleet are R32s built in 1964.

~~~
13of40
Even worse, huh?

~~~
sethhochberg
Those old cars are tanks, for what its worth - they've been scheduled to be
replaced several times over the years, and each time their replacement has
been postponed to replace newer fleets of cars which have developed major
problems. They don't have the fancy signage of some of the newer fleet, but
they function very well.

------
justincormack
London started to get wifi, but it is unencrypted and you have to watch an ad
before using it, by which time the train has arrived, so it has zero value.

~~~
the_mitsuhiko
I don't get why they don't roll out LTE in the tube. Would be so much more
useful.

~~~
gst
Why would it be more useful? If they offered LTE you would need an account
with a wireless provider to be able to use it, which is probably not an option
for tourists who would pay insane roaming fees. On the other hand with WiFi
most wireless carriers offer WiFi calling anyway nowadays, so you're able to
do anything that you could also do on LTE.

~~~
the_mitsuhiko
No tourist uses the wifi in the tube. It's abysmal and too expensive for that.
Unless you live in London there is no point to subscribe to the wifi there.
Also pretty irrelevant as an argument given the fact that roaming charges are
dropping and that you can get prepaid sims everywhere.

------
Max_Horstmann
> The MTA will also accelerate delivering real-time arrival data for all 469
> subway stations, which will be available on the MTA’s SubwayTime app and
> will be streamed as an open data feed for any developer to use.

Neat.

~~~
lbotos
I'm not sure _how_ they are going to do this, when most of the lines don't
have this technology (it's literally turn the the century switching
technology):

[http://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2015/11/why-
do...](http://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2015/11/why-dont-we-know-
where-all-the-trains-are/415152/)

~~~
kalleboo
Perhaps they same way they do it on buses?

~~~
superuser2
No, you can't reliably receive GPS signals in a subway tunnel.

~~~
nrb
If you have wifi hotspots in every station you can track the trains that way,
no GPS required.

------
Ezhik
Catching up to Moscow.

~~~
colinbartlett
I started traveling to Moscow regularly before I moved to New York and when I
did, I was shocked that not only was wifi not as ubiquitous as in Moscow but
the subway in NYC didn't even have cell phone service. Felt very strange for
Moscow to be so far ahead of New York.

~~~
d1ffuz0r
it's normal - Moscow is 8 hours ahead of NYC

------
redwood
Boggles my mind that union square station still has no service

------
ekianjo
Not wifi, but in the much bigger metro network in Tokyo, You can use mobile
connection (LTE) even in-between stations. They probably have underground
relays.

~~~
rst
Likewise almost everywhere on Boston's subway -- though it's worth noting that
the Boston subway as a whole is smaller and carries less people than New
York's Lexington Avenue line.

------
shmerl
Are they going to be open WiFi, or will require some authentication?

~~~
nperez
I've used the one on 34th and it requires acceptance of their TOS but if I
remember correctly, I didn't need to input any personal info.

~~~
shmerl
34th actually has usable T-Mobile connection.

------
fredfoobar42
So, January 2018. Got it.

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jrbapna
This only applies to the stations, not the actual trains. The great majority
of my commute time is spent on the train, not in the station (where you can
often get LTE anyway).

~~~
bradleyboy
> not in the station (where you can often get LTE anyway).

Often? Except for a few stations in Midtown, I rarely see any cell service
once inside the turnstiles.

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yeukhon
I have celluar data plan. I don't use the public wifi unless there is no
coverage in the station. We need:

* more cellular coverage, for every station

* LED train schedule display in every train station

------
mentos
Would be great if you could buy tickets with your cellphone

