
Amazon Has Transformed the Hasidic Economy - mykowebhn
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/10/16/nyregion/hasidic-jews-amazon.html
======
jweir
About 6 years ago I ordered a tv on Amazon, it was going to be shipped out and
delivered in about a week.

About an hour later I got a phone a call with a thick accented voice – "John,
John, are you home?"

"Who is this?"

"I got your TV, we can come over right now."

Sure enough they pulled up with their van and I got my TV about two hours
after I ordered. Unknown to me I had ordered it from a Hasidic run company
just down the street from my home in Brooklyn.

~~~
GhettoMaestro
Nice! I wonder if the vendor gets his money earlier from Amazon if he
delivered it faster.

~~~
Alupis
> I wonder if the vendor gets his money earlier from Amazon if he delivered it
> faster

No - Amazon pays sellers every other week.

~~~
CamelCaseName
This is not necessarily true. Some sellers can request disbursement at any
time. For a breakdown of when Amazon pays sellers, see [0].

In this case, the only delay is the 7 day holding period after the latest
possible delivery date.

For example, if you sell and deliver a product on Jan 1st, you may be able to
disburse the funds as soon as the 8th.

However! This example does not hold for the situation described by the GP
because no tracking information can be provided to Amazon. In which case, the
longest possible delivery period in the shipping method selected will be used.

More importantly, what the seller did as described by GP is big liability, for
two reasons:

1\. Phone numbers should never, ever, be used to contact the customer
directly. They are for the seller to give to the carrier. This is a violation
of Amazon's ToS.

2\. Sellers should never, ever, deliver directly to buyers. Not only will this
hurt their valid tracking rate metric, but it also makes them a very easy
target for item not received cases as there is no proof that the item was
delivered. The only recourse in a case like this would be through small claims
court.

And on a much more minor note, it's unprofessional to visit a buyer in person.
Amazon is not eBay.

[0] [https://3t122x28ppxb3z3e3u3i0eib-wpengine.netdna-
ssl.com/wp-...](https://3t122x28ppxb3z3e3u3i0eib-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-
content/uploads/2019/08/amazon-payouts-timeline.png)

~~~
Aloha
Maybe?

They can still use the same tracking mechanisms, I mean when I order from the
pizza place, they don't contract it out, so why should I care of my amazon
seller does?

~~~
Alupis
For orders over 10 USD, Amazon requires a verifiable tracking number from one
of the major carrier services. (It's possible to "ship" an order without a
tracking number, but the seller takes a hit to their account metrics, and
Amazon will eventually freeze their account for review).

This is so they can verify you actually shipped the package, and verify it was
delivered within the fulfillment promise date range, ie. if you paid for 2 day
shipping or whatever.

There are some sellers that have been approved for self-delivery of packages,
which are not trackable. In these cases, they usually forfeit all rights to
dispute non-delivery claims and more. So, it's pretty risky for the seller.

~~~
heavenlyblue
Speaking of which: Amazon (and ebay, too) had recently started using a UK-
based service called Yodel.

Last time Yodel had delivered a parcel of $50 to my door (marking it as
delivered), which obviously got stolen. You can’t call Yodel - their line is
always busy, and the line is not a free number.

Yodel had done that regularly to me, but I could never contact them or do
anything about my delivery, since their customer service is horrendous.

Is there any way to set it up in Amazon (or ebay, too) so that their
fulfillment never uses a certain delivery brand?

~~~
ryanlol
>Is there any way to set it up in Amazon (or ebay, too) so that their
fulfillment never uses a certain delivery brand?

Amazon support was able to do this for me. They also CC:d me on a really
strongly worded email to the delivery company, which I found really
surprising.

This was one of the euro amazons with european support staff.

~~~
Wowfunhappy
Did it actually work? Did they actually stop using that delivery company for
your packages (and is the company common enough for this to not be random
chance)?

~~~
ryanlol
Yes, and yes. I probably get closer to 1000 deliveries annually.

------
fortran77
Buzz Feed News (yes!) covered this same story with much more sensitivity
several weeks ago.

[https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/leticiamiranda/amazon-o...](https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/leticiamiranda/amazon-
orthodox-jews)

~~~
joecool1029
Understand that the way Buzzfeed covered it obscures the very real fact that
there's a huge amount of controversy regarding this specific Satmar Hasidic
community. This is not a question of Antisemitism, there have been very real
issues directly caused by prominent rabbis within this community. These
controversies are known to pretty much anyone in the NY metro area, so it
makes sense that the NYTimes (being located in NYC and publishing in the
nyarea section) would cover it in such a way.

They say this in the Buzzfeed article:

>But on an economic level, this commitment translates into a 28% poverty rate
among Orthodox Jews in New York, according to the UJA Federation of New York.
Many Orthodox Jews find employment at religious schools and rely on welfare to
support their large families, which have an average of seven children.

This completely ignores that welfare fraud has been a perennial issue in the
Lakewood [1] and Brooklyn [2] Hasidic communities. The community knows it can
take advantage federal, state, and local programs so they do. The same
community has issues with overt employment discrimination [3], and is also
known for being one of the more vocal anti-vaxxer communities [4].

I deliberately chose local, Jewish, and official state sources to appeal to
your sensitivities. I understand if you aren't from the area and/or have never
associated with members of the Hasidic community so I encourage you to review
and understand why the NYTimes article was written the way it was.

[1]
[https://www.app.com/story/news/investigations/watchdog/2018/...](https://www.app.com/story/news/investigations/watchdog/2018/03/27/amnesty-
program-results-lakewood-nj-welfare-fraud-arrests-recovery/948466001/)

[2] [https://forward.com/news/351162/wealthy-orthodox-couples-
cha...](https://forward.com/news/351162/wealthy-orthodox-couples-charged-
in-13m-brooklyn-benefits-scam/)

[3]
[https://www.dol.gov/newsroom/releases/ofccp/ofccp20170814](https://www.dol.gov/newsroom/releases/ofccp/ofccp20170814)

[4] [https://forward.com/news/national/422354/hasidic-measles-
out...](https://forward.com/news/national/422354/hasidic-measles-outbreak-
peach-handbook/)

~~~
tdfx
I think anyone who is not familiar with these particular communities in
Lakewood and Brooklyn will see warning flags of anti-semitism in a lot of
related comments about them. I would just like to voice some support for the
people speaking up about them, because this is not a problem with Jews, or
even Orthodox Jews. It is specific to these particular Hasidic communities and
the fraud is rampant and expanding.

~~~
joecool1029
Thanks, I believe it's really important to call out and charge the leadership
inside these communities. They know full well what is and isn't legal. If you
shut down discussion on these sorts of issues, I believe you allow for abuses
to happen and rage to grow against the larger community who are often
innocent.

As others have mentioned, the Hasidic community is an insular community. I
have interacted numerous times in business and I've never had an issue
professionally. In matters of business they learn how to behave with customers
and run things efficiently. It was why, until the discrimination charges were
announced, I kept going back to B&H to spend thousands of dollars on gear over
the years. When I was a kid I thought of them like Amish, but instead of
farming and barn raising they just happened to sell stuff.

Unfortunately, just like other groups that rely on propaganda to hide abuses,
the good rabbis inside it that act as whistleblowers end up attacked. This
sickening NSFW/NSFL article [1] is about a rabbi inside the community that
decided to speak out against child abuse. He was rewarded with chemical burns
after bleach was tossed in his face.

[1] [https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/qbe8bp/the-child-rape-
ass...](https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/qbe8bp/the-child-rape-assembly-
line-0000141-v20n11)

~~~
fortran77
Is it any more "insular" than the Haskell community or the Scheme community?

~~~
devin
One of these things is not like the other. One of these things just isn’t the
same.

------
julianozen
This makes for interesting contrast with this two part story on Reply All
about a Hasidic Jew who discovers the internet and begins to struggle with his
community.

[https://gimletmedia.com/shows/reply-
all/39hzw2](https://gimletmedia.com/shows/reply-all/39hzw2)
[https://gimletmedia.com/shows/reply-
all/awhm5x](https://gimletmedia.com/shows/reply-all/awhm5x)

~~~
knodi123
wow, that was a great story, thanks for sharing

------
qwerty456127
Amazon is great yet I wish there were more sites like Amazon and eBay so
healthy competition between them would stimulate further improvement.

BTW why people won't use OpenBazaar instead?

~~~
ghostly_s
> BTW why people won't use OpenBazaar instead?

I strongly dispute your "Amazon is great" statement but I digress. I think I
heard about OpenBazaar when it launched but just checked it out again and
having no web frontend for a marketplace is total crazysauce. People who are
looking to buy something elsewhere from Amazon find those storefronts through
search.

------
supahfly_remix
Does the Hasidic community have any advantages in the reseller market? With
some of their traditional businesses, such as the diamond trade they do:
evaluating gems, connections for sourcing stones, etc.

~~~
yellowstuff
B&H, an electronics super store in Manhattan, is owned by Hasidic Jews, and it
sells new and used gear. The web site won't even take orders on Shabbat. I
wouldn't be surprised if some of the people selling new or used electronics
have some connection to B&H or another brick and mortar store.

~~~
protomyth
B&H has been our goto place for electronics / computers lately. They deal well
with educational institutions, will take a PO from an community college on a
reservation in North Dakota, and have excellent customer service.

I do keep track when I can order, for instance right now they are closed for
Succos.

------
evancox100
'“Whatever you decide to sell doesn’t matter as long as you meet Amazon’s
requirements,” he said.'

That's about all you need to know about Amazon these days.

------
undefined3840
I think there’s something about knowing you need to care for a large family
(e.g. a member of a religion that values having lots of kids) that is
motivating for entrepreneurs in a way I don’t always hear about e.g.
entrepreneurial tendencies among Hasidic Jews and Mormons

~~~
pchristensen
For Latter-day Saints (Mormons), the entrepreneurship roots go back to the
early church history. Between 1831-1847, members of the church established 4
settlements and were expelled from 3(Kirtland, OH; Western Missouri; Nauvoo,
IL; Salt Lake City). These areas were all frontiers at the time, and grew to
become the largest cities in their region, which drew fear and persecution
from people in the surrounding areas. Salt Lake was many hundreds of miles
from the closest white settlement, and Brigham Young intentionally
assigned/coerced/funded as many crafts and industries as possible to reduce
dependence on trade with the (indifferent to hostile) United States. And
established dozens of settlements throughout the Mountain West. So you have
generations of entrepreneurs that had a captive market that needed EVERYTHING,
and only internal competition.

Also, many Latter-day Saints go on 2 year missions in their late teens/early
20s, where you mostly self-direct your proselyting in the area you are
assigned to. Good sales experience, self-starting, persistence, etc.

It's a potent combination for business.

~~~
bluedino
WordPerfect was ran by Mormons, wasn't it? I'd love to hear some stories (I
already read Almost Perfect)

~~~
wyclif
Yes, out of Orem, UT.

------
Mathnerd314
The manufacturing is in China; I wonder how the tariffs affect them.

~~~
nullbyte
The article says they acquire most of their merchandise through local,
physical clearance sales. I don't think they're ordering much from China.

------
azernik
Belated cultural note:

Both the article and many in this comment section are using the term "Hasidic"
to refer to all ultra-Orthodox (aka Haredi) Jews. This is not the case.

As the article briefly mentions, Hasidism is a recent (~18th-century) ecstatic
religious movement that split off from conventional ultra-Orthodoxy. Non-
Hasidic Haredim originally called themselves Misnagdim ("opposition"), but
these days are usually called Litvish ("Lithuanian", since that was the
stronghold of Misnagdi thought). The two have since reconciled over their
combined opposition to later secularist Jewish religious and political trends,
and through the efforts/existence of groups like Chabad which blur the binary;
but the separate identities are still strong.

Borough Park, the neighborhood the article is about, happens to be majority
Hasidic, but also has a substantial Litvish minority which is subject to all
of the same pressures and constraints that draw Haredim of all stripes to
online businesses.

------
searine
Considering how prevalent state-provided aid is among ultra-conservative sects
like this, it is good to see a viable career path for them.

~~~
defterGoose
Kinda funny how antithetical that is to tradional conservative values
regarding entitlements.

~~~
LegitShady
the 'conservative' here does not refer to traditional conservative politics
that include those values. You're being confused by two definitions of
'conservative'.

~~~
defterGoose
I'm really not though. I'm aware that 'conservative' has specific religious
connotations, but on the Venn diagram with political conservatism, there's a
lot of overlap. Trump won many predominantly Jewish districts in the last
election.

~~~
LegitShady
Nonetheless the values of receiving and giving charity are more common in the
community in question than your comment about conservative values, because
conservative doesn't mean "trump supporter" or "same values as Republican
party".

So aware or not your previous comment was wrong in every way because you
cannot or will not separate different meanings of "conservative".

You smeared all with one brush and your subsequent worldview is just as
nonsensical as one would expect from such a nonsensical approach to viewing
others.

Your comment was the opposite of insight - anyone who read your comment was
actively mislead. You are fake news.

~~~
defterGoose
Everyone makes generalizations, it's one of the ways we communicate without
needing to get overly academic about everything. I would also note that your
tone exudes a high level of bias. If, as TFA states, there are a lot of very
poor people in these communities, then that underlies your statement that
charity is common among Hasidim.

It _is_ an interesting fact that (disclaimer, generalizations follow) a
community that tends to take charity from the government also tends to vote
for a candidate like Donald Trump.

~~~
LegitShady
generalizations are good when they're somewhat accurate. they're bad when
they're inaccurate. Generalizations aren't inherently good. yours distorts
reality by ignoring specifics in a way that does not good except to your ego.

Your reaction to my pointing this out is that my "tone exudes a high level of
bias" \- when you're the one doing the tone reading.

People are more complex than you make them, and your one dimensional analysis
based on a purposeful misconstruing of a word, leading you to smear an entire
religious group adds no value to any conversation, and reveals you as a likely
a bigot.

------
cm2012
Early in my career, I worked for two companies run by orthodox Jews that sold
lots of goods on Amazon.

------
seibelj
Yet another example of how a decentralized free market has innumerable and
unexpected positive outcomes, such as letting a restricted and insular
community become prosperous and self-sufficient. Don't be fooled by calls to
allow the government to take over tech - this outcome would never have been
centrally planned by any bureaucrat.

------
kova12
article is behind paywall

~~~
eldenbishop
Seems like an unusually large percentage of posts on Hacker News are behind
paywalls, some soft, some hard, some with a maximum free articles per time-
unit. I peruse most of the top stories daily and can't read a good number of
them making me have to just read the comments to get a sense of the article.
It is seriously annoying. I wish there was some kind of flair or warning on
these posts.

~~~
woodandsteel
I think HN should have a rule that if someone puts up a link that is behind a
paywall, they should give some way to get around it. Like they should make the
first comment a set of instructions, like disable JS or an alternative link.

~~~
umanwizard
Or you could just ignore things you aren’t willing to pay for, instead of
expecting to be able to steal them.

~~~
woodandsteel
The problem with that is I would have to subscribe to a hundred different
publications, and a new one every few days.

If I could buy a subscription that covered all online publications, and for a
reasonable price, I would be quite happy. As it is I already have 5 print
subscriptions.

