
France to ban electric scooters from pavements in September - CaptainZapp
https://www.rte.ie/news/world/2019/0504/1047489-france-scooters/
======
donjoe
Traffic in cities should be remodeled.

Currently, approx. 7/8 of public space is used by cars. Most of the time
they're stuck in traffic or 'dead capital' while in parking mode. Furthermore,
where I live, the price to park a car is ~10 times cheaper than to rent (per
sqm) and highly subsidized by tax payers.

I wonder why we do protect our workers but pedestrians and cyclists/scooters
just don't matter. Have you ever seen a working environment where an object
with 2-40tons is allowed to freely move next to a person at a speed of 50km/h
and more? I'm glad we do have rules in working enviromnents. It would be great
to see the same on roads as well.

I'm all for 'shared roads' with a speed limit reduced to 20km/h which makes it
unnecessary for cars to overtake scooters/cyclists. We wouldn't have to build
new infrastructure but could simply use the existing one. I could imagine we
could even remove most of our traffic lights replaced by roundabouts.

In the long run I hope to see less cars overall and people switching to
smaller means of transportation. Moving 2 tons to buy a 500g loaf of bread is
just insane.

~~~
smt88
> _I 'm all for 'shared roads' with a speed limit reduced to 20km/h which
> makes it unnecessary for cars to overtake scooters/cyclists._

1\. People don't obey speed limits

2\. In the US at least, there are people who aren't very wealthy living
outside of cities.

They may commute 20+ miles into the office. Their retirement may depend on
their house retaining its value.

Drastically reducing throughput of streets is nice for people who are only
traveling a mile or two, but it hurts long-distance commuters.

~~~
ben_w
People don't _perfectly_ obey speed limits, but lowering speed limits does
lower average traffic speeds. When limits were reduced from 30 mph to 20 mph
in much of Cambridge (the original one), local news reported that average
traffic speed in those areas reduced from 35 mph to 25 mph.

Also in Cambridge, there’s a thing called “park and ride”. I have no idea how
common park and ride in the USA, but Wikipedia says it exists. Summary of the
idea [1]: out-of-town car park with a good public transport link to where
commuters need to go.

Unfortunately, people whose retirement depends on their house retaining its
value are probably screwed regardless — what happens when self driving, self-
charging, solar covered RVs/mobile TinyHomes/seasteads can be mass produced
(including interiors) by the sort of robots currently used for cars? Material
costs for those should only come to about $35k, most of which is the battery,
which doesn’t need to be as large as the one in a commuter vehicle like a
Tesla.

[1] implementations vary in quality.

~~~
saiya-jin
Well, at least here in Switzerland (where you would expect things to be done
perfectly), Park & Ride are often half-assed effort that doesn't work that
well.

Yes there is some obscure remote car parking. It takes 6-12 months to get
through the queue of getting a spot (or more, depends). While waiting you have
no idea how long till you get a place. They are almost as expensive as renting
a private parking spot in the center. Then there is public transport - there
is some, but far from ideal, and very far from motivating commuters to use
this system, since it adds so much overhead that they prefer driving straight
to the center of the town, even in densest traffic hours.

The message from city government cannot be more clear - we ticked a checkbox,
but in reality we couldn't care less. City I am most familiar with this issue
- Geneva.

------
hocuspocus
It's _already_ illegal to ride scooters on the sidewalks. And anywhere else
really, given that these vehicles don't fall into any category.

As usual, France is really good at introducing laws that don't bring anything
new instead of simply enforcing the current ones. I've seen seven different
companies providing free floating scooters in Paris, and plenty of them are
used by complete idiots. There have been several deaths already. The mayor
could easily ban all these startups if she really cared about the law and
public safety. Riders who own their own scooter seem to be a bit more
responsible, and those are the ones that should be targeted by new laws.

~~~
jessriedel
> I've seen seven different companies providing free floating scooters in
> Paris... There have been several deaths already.

Cite? I couldn't find any news stories about electric scooter (not mopeds)
deaths in France, and this page suggests they are exceedingly rare.

[https://m.ranker.com/list/worst-electric-scooter-
accidents-a...](https://m.ranker.com/list/worst-electric-scooter-accidents-
and-deaths/sarah-blumert)

~~~
VSerge
you will find below a 2018 article (in French), it lists a 23% rise in
injuries, though fatalies appear stable year on year. Experts are cited as
expecting a sharp rise of both with the increasing numbers of "trottinettes
électriques". Seeing the people ride everyday (headphones on, no helmet), it
seems like it's pretty much a statistical certainty.

[http://www.leparisien.fr/societe/les-accidents-de-
trottinett...](http://www.leparisien.fr/societe/les-accidents-de-trottinettes-
en-forte-hausse-10-10-2018-7916037.php)

~~~
jessriedel
Fatalities stable (from 6 in 2016 down to 5 in 2017) in a category that
combines rollerblades and scooters.

And we obviously expect injuries (and deaths) to rise with increased usage.
The pertinent question is whether the injury/death rate per km (or whatever)
is high compared to similar forms of transport.

~~~
jessriedel
Note also that these deaths are for all of France. I would say this is, if
anything, evidence against hocuspocus's suggestion that there have been
several deaths from electric-scooter accidents in Paris.

------
tlrobinson
It seems entirely reasonable to ban powered vehicles from sidewalks, and I say
that as a daily user of a Boosted Board.

Now in exchange, go forth and create more dedicated (and preferably protected)
lanes for bikes (electric or otherwise), electric scooters, skateboards, and
other light personal vehicles.

In 2001 Dean Kamen said Segway would "cause cities to be redesigned". I think
he was only off by a couple decades and a slight variation on the vehicles'
form factor.

~~~
TulliusCicero
The problem here is that in the year 2019,

a) most cities have few, if any protected bike lanes (or equivalent)

b) scooter riders experience more danger from cars in the road than
pedestrians do from scooters on the sidewalk (just think if you'd rather be
hit by a scooter while walking or by a car while scooter-ing)

Thus, forcing scooters off the sidewalk is a net negative for safety, is it
not?

~~~
Stubb
Banning cars from downtown areas would be a net safety improvement for
everyone.

~~~
dymk
Well that’s just not going to happen without major infrastructure projects, so
it’d be nice if people could stop suggesting it as if it was viable.

~~~
oftenwrong
Here's an example of the required infrastructure:
[https://fitzrovianews.files.wordpress.com/2013/03/warren-
st-...](https://fitzrovianews.files.wordpress.com/2013/03/warren-st-
closed.jpg)

~~~
dymk
The madman solved city planning! I can’t believe it!

------
davedx
This seems fair. I was in Paris a month ago and we used Birds to get around.
Many people rode them on the roads but plenty were whizzing up pavements too,
pretty dangerous considering the top speed, speed delta with pedestrians and
nobody wearing helmets.

The only issue with riding scooters on the road is a lot of the roads in the
centre-north area of Paris are cobbled, but you can just slow down.

I don’t find anything remotely controversial about banning a powered vehicle
capable of ~30 km/h from pavements.

<3 Paris!

~~~
INTPenis
>I don’t find anything remotely controversial about banning a powered vehicle
capable of ~30 km/h from pavements.

30km/h?!

Here in Sweden they forced the company to bring the top speed down to 20km/h
for rental scooters.

Of course many have bought their own since the fad started dying down. And
those are sometimes capable of illegal speeds up to 40km/h. Impossible for
police to tell, and also a waste of time seeing as there are more pressing
issues.

~~~
mercer
> Impossible for police to tell.

How's that? Here in Holland there's quite an industry making scooters faster,
but the police regularly set up funnels where they test the maximum speed of
the scooters they catch. From what I hear some people even install hidden
buttons to limit the top speed whenever they're checked (which I suppose is
not too difficult to figure out now the police knows).

~~~
klyrs
A better mouse: a circuit that detects something akin to a knock sequence. You
can put it into turbo mode with a cheat code, and it's only detectable if you
analyze the circuit

------
scarejunba
In San Francisco, there's this common view that you can't ride on the sidewalk
because _it's dangerous_! So I took this long trip to Japan, and everyone
rides their bikes on the sidewalk there and shifts to the road when they want
to and Japan is safer.

Made me wonder.

And it was everywhere. In Tokyo, where it's crowded. In Odawara, where it's
less so.

EDIT: You know what I think? This is the same thing as the panic around kids
playing outside. The notion of 'danger' is overplayed in the West.

~~~
o_nate
I saw the same thing in Tokyo. It may have something to do with the common
courtesy of the bikers to yield to pedestrians and not buzz past them. Here in
NYC, I'm much more terrified of bikers who stick to the road (given that I
occasionally have to cross the street) than I was of bikers on sidewalks in
Tokyo.

------
tlrobinson
To clarify for the Americans, "pavements" means sidewalks in this case,
correct?

~~~
kwhitefoot
Yes, British English pavement means American sidewalk. I suspect that when the
word was first used only that part of the street was paved.

See
[https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/pavement](https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/pavement)

~~~
majewsky
In German, sidewalks are called "Bürgersteig", which means "citizens' step".
Probably because the middle part of the street was used by peasants and
merchants bringing goods into the city on carriages, while the citizens were
walking on the sidewalks.

~~~
jamesrcole
And FWIW in Australia they're called footpaths.

~~~
rogual
In the UK, official signage often calls them that, but it's not something
ordinary people tend to say.

~~~
jamesrcole
Interesting. Over here they're called footpaths in everyday spoken language.

------
hkmurakami
Was in Paris earlier in the year. It appeared that most people were already
riding in the street rather than the sidewalk.

Traffic in Paris is rather chaotic though (it's actually nice to see quite a
few cyclists despite this chaos). I'd be concerned about rider safety.

~~~
nemanjaboric
Yeah, the article is somewhat confusing, or wrong? I didn't see much people
driving on pavement as well (I can't recall any), but had to move four of
these to the side so that the lady with a roller can go through the pavement.
The parking is literally - just leave them anywhere. And then they fall on the
side, making them unwanted since nobody wants to drive scooter that's on the
ground, so they stay there for days.

> She said parking in such a way as to obstruct traffic or pedestrians will
> mean a 35-euro fine -- but the Paris city council has pledged to build
> parking spots for 2,500 scooters.

~~~
lucsky
> And then they fall on the side

No they don't, some assholes push them and make them fall on purpose, I have
seen it done _many_ times here in Paris. Those idiot vigilantes seem to hope
that by wreaking havoc they will increase the negative perception of the
population against the scooters and their riders.

------
rienbdj
The road is dangerous, the pavement is banned. Scooters and bikes need
dedicated road space.

~~~
anonymou2
No way, that's a lie been repeated for the last 60 years to get rid of
bicycles and leave the roads only for motorists. Cyclists have the same right
to use the public roads as motorists, no more but certainly no less. Some of
us, cyclists, are actively fighting against the cyclist apartheid.

~~~
thecatspaw
I dont think the intention is to get rid of bycicles on the streets, rather to
seperate them into their own lanes, to increase safety. By fighting against
the 'cyclist apartheid' you are fighting against your own safety.

~~~
anonymou2
Quite the opposite, it is more dangerous to ride in a segregated manner
because it contradicts the basic principles of traffic which exist so that
vehicles of all types can safely share the road. For example there is a basic
principle that says that when you reach an intersection you position yourself
according to your destination, right if you are going to turn right and so on.
Bike lanes that force vehicles not using it to turn right from the adjacent
lane contradict this rule and increase the chances of right hook type of
accident. The people who build these things completely ignore that bicycles
are vehicles, they only build them for the convenience of motorists not for
our safety.

~~~
seanmcdirmid
I think you are confusing the poor excuse of bike lanes in the USA with the
much better dedicated biking paths in the Netherlands. The latter don’t have
the problems you mentioned.

------
lunchladydoris
For a second I thought this was actually about scooters being abandoned on the
sidewalks. I was in Paris in February and there were scooters littered all
over the place.

------
jasonlingx
Singapore seems to have gone the opposite direction and banned electric
scooters from the roads. They also require government registration of every
device.

[https://www.gov.sg/news/content/are-e-scooters-allowed-on-
ro...](https://www.gov.sg/news/content/are-e-scooters-allowed-on-roads)

------
deanclatworthy
They just rolled out scooters in Helsinki. People are riding on the sidewalk
everywhere. I contacted the city to suggest learning from the other examples
of cities which have had many teething problems with scooters, but they were
not in any position to enforce any form of rules on the operators. Crazy.

~~~
ahje
The Finnish habit of riding bikes and scooters on the pavement is outright
dangerous. Alas, I couldn't find a single candidate willing to raise the issue
in the recent elections. :/

~~~
deanclatworthy
I believe it's technically against the law to cycle on the pavement here. It's
also legal to ride a small scooter (e.g. a Vespa) on the cycle lane, yet
nobody can tell me if it's _actually_ illegal to ride an electric scooter on
the sidewalk.

For me it would be as simple as this:

\- Make it illegal to ride a scooter on the sidewalks with an immediate on the
spot fine of 100e.

\- Make it illegal for scooter companies to operate the park anywhere model.
They must work with the city to install stations. The city could even offer a
standard model where operators can use the city-run recharging stations.

\- Get rid of the majority of city center parking and aggressively install
more central bike lanes, allowing future mobility solutions (e-scooters,
e-skateboards etc.) more transit ways.

~~~
ahje
Agreed, although if it isn't backed up with resources to actually enforce it,
it's just a meaningless gesture. As sad as it is, a large part of the traffic
offences are simply ignored outside ring III (apart from speeding caught by
speed traps, of course).

Riding a bike on the pavement is legal for children under the age of 12 iirc.
For adults it's a no go.

~~~
deanclatworthy
I wonder why it's considered legal for children. They probably present even
more risk to an elderly person, or child in a push chair.

~~~
ahje
I assume it's because they are occasionally behaving unpredictably and thereby
pose an even larger problem when on the road. There were probably not a lot of
bicycle roads or bicycle lanes back when the law was written.

~~~
distances
I'd assume it's for the safety of the children. At that age they're perhaps
not the most rational street users.

------
LifeLiverTransp
Thats the old europe we all know and hate. Dont even search for a solution to
a problem, just ban it, until the fad goes away. There are laser projectors,
to mark your trajectory ahead of time.. a thousand ways- and instead - the
nays.

Like a grumpy old guy, on a bench, envying the still living for his life
wasted, hating on the new joys and the joy of the new.

------
mapcars
A question from a rider, I ride on the pedestrian side when the road is full
of holes and broken pieces of asphalt which is only possible to ride on a car
wheel. Are they going to fix the roads to be ridable as well or just make one
more stupid law?

~~~
TACIXAT
Where I live the streets are so much better than the bike paths. I tend to
residential since they're quieter but damn, I would love to have some nicely
maintained dedicated lanes.

------
whydoineedthis
Clickbait. They aren't banning scooters from anywhere - you just can't
physically ride them on the sidewalk anymore.....if anyone was dumb enough to
anyway.

------
system_panic
The plural of pavement is pavement.

~~~
majewsky
[https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/pavement](https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/pavement)

