
Advice for ambitious 19 year olds - kirillzubovsky
http://blog.samaltman.com/advice-for-ambitious-19-year-olds
======
kayoone
"Incidentally, don’t let salary be a factor. I just watched someone turn down
one of these breakout companies because Microsoft offered him $30k per year
more in salary—that was a terrible decision. He will not build interesting
things and may not work with smart people."

That quote drips so much of elitism its disgusting. MS still has many
brilliant engineers and is building alot of really complex stuff, probably
more than your average startup ever will. This is the kind of talk i find
really off putting about the whole startup-scene...

~~~
sama
I agree with that--for example, I think Microsoft Research has some of the
smartest hackers I've met. However, other divisions of MSFT (and where this
person was going) have some of the worst people I've met.

~~~
rgbrenner
Microsoft has 100,000 employees (42k in WA).. of course SOME of them are bad.

[http://www.microsoft.com/en-
us/news/inside_ms.aspx](http://www.microsoft.com/en-us/news/inside_ms.aspx)

~~~
argonaut
This is overly nitpicky. Of course some people are bad in any company. Clearly
the blog author means to say that there tends to be more "bad" engineers at
MSFT than you would expect from its outward reputation. The problem with that
is that if every blog author hedges in exacting detail their every argument,
discussions would devolve into technicalities.

------
pg
Sam was just telling me how much he regretted looking at this thread.

"Oh, you should never read Hacker News comments about anything you write," I
told him.

Whereupon it immediately struck me how strange and sad it was to be saying
this, as the person who started HN.

Seriously, some of the comments on this thread are HN at its very worst:
bitter, willful misinterpretations of what Sam is saying.

~~~
majani
I think a lot of the blowback Sam gets around here can actually be attributed
to you presenting him as your "favourite founder" when its not apparent to the
rest of us what makes him so great.

~~~
onedev
I like mint chocolate chip ice cream.

I don't give a fuck if it's not apparent to anyone else what makes it so
great. I like how it tastes.

Why is it unreasonable for PG to have someone as his favorite founder? What if
they're just good friends and he really resonates with this Sam guy? Why does
it matter if you can't see what's so great about someone you've never met in
your life? Maybe Sam is funny in person and has a great attitude. You wouldn't
know. Just accept it for what it is. Maybe PG's reasons ARE irrational. Who
cares? I have a ton of irrational favorite things.

You people are crazy sometimes.

------
codegeek
My suggestion to 19 year olds. Be careful with this blog post.

"working at an already-massively-successful company means you will learn much
less, and probably work with less impressive people."

Seriously? Yes big companies have lots of bureaucratic crap and things take
longer blah blah. However, you do not want to be giving this advice to an
"ambitious" 19 year old. Big companies have a _lot_ of smart and impressive
people. Lots. They also can teach you a thing or 2 about the "real world".

"Incidentally, don’t let salary be a factor. I just watched someone turn down
one of these breakout companies because Microsoft offered him $30k per year
more in salary—that was a terrible decision."

Let me provide the other side of this. You are giving up $30K in salary today
as a 19 year old. Now, lets imagine that you need to get a job soon again
since that "awesome breakout" company actually failed, what do you think is
going to happen ? Yes, you will not be able to negotiate as high a salary as
you could have if you had that extra $30K. It is not just about $30K. It is
about having the power to negotiate _next_ time if you move which you probably
will as a 19 year old.

------
avolcano
I'm 19, and just started as a software engineer at a startup in NYC. It's been
absolutely incredible - I never thought I'd be here a year ago.

I'll admit that my situation isn't universal - luckily, I could get my foot in
the door with many startups by being in the last batch of Hacker School - but
if you, like me, hate academia and want to get to work, don't let your age
stop you. Sure, there's companies that care about your schooling - the
Googles, Twitters, Facebooks, and Palantirs of the world - but there are so
many more that just want _great hackers_ with awesome GitHub profiles and
real-world chops.

(and, of course, make sure to never stop learning on your own time! You will,
inevitably, have gaps in your knowledge you missed from school, but between
Coursera, the availability of free textbooks and lectures, and other
resources, it's not hard to remedy that on your own)

~~~
Selfcommit
Please understand that my intent here is not to begrudge you in any way - I
think it's wonderful that you're working as an SE at such a young age - but..
I'm 10 years older than you. I code in the evenings, I spend my morning
commute listing to any computer science online course I can find... I have
over 5 years experience as a Systems Admin... I've interviewed with a number
of _big_ companies and startups but I don't feel nearly prepared enough to
land an SE role.

How is it possible a 19 year old can?

I can accept that perhaps that 19 year old is just more clever than I am, but
I'm a pretty clever guy. What am I missing?

~~~
jtbigwoo
He's probably very clever, but his definition of "great hacker" is vastly
different than your definition.

His definition is probably "someone who makes stuff work." Yours is probably
"an expert in his field."

~~~
Selfcommit
I'm not sure I follow the distinction you're making. I can make things work,
but I don't know if that makes them a good product.. I guess that's your
point?

~~~
taurath
Its a founder/CEO/Top brass job to figure out the product and whether its a
good one. Its an engineers job to make the thing. If you think you can make
the thing, then you can get a job as an engineer. If you think you can LEARN
to make the thing, you can get a job as an engineer.

------
jmduke
Ah yes, eschew Microsoft, the company that has literally thousands of
employees devoted purely to research (a number of whom have won Turing awards)
to work for a startup which is more likely than not to be in the business of
producing a Rails CRUD app. After all, you need to be surrounded by (people
who call themselves) hackers.

My advice for ambitious 19 year olds: ask your parents for advice, because
they likely know you better than anyone on the internet. (I say this as
someone two years your senior)

------
cperciva
_“I’m an ambitious 19 year old, what should I do?”_

This is an interesting question, in my experience: The sets of "most ambitious
people I know" and "people who describe themselves as ambitious" seem to be
entirely disjoint. The most ambitious people I know just go out and do things,
rather than sitting around thinking (and talking) about how ambitious they
are.

This may be a cultural thing -- self-describing as "ambitious" is the sort of
thing which I find tends to happen thanks to high school career preparation
programs (along with "organized", "reliable", and "good with people"), and
it's entirely possible that those school programs are subtly different in the
US than in Canada. However, I can't shake the feeling that there's a kernel of
truth here.

------
jonnathanson
It's often dismissed as cheesy, but it's the most important career advice
there is: find your passion. Ninety nine people out of 100 never have a great
answer to the question, "Where do you want to be in 10 years?" Instead, they
treat their careers in ad hoc fashion, hopping opportunistically from job to
job.

The best way to succeed is to have a very clear answer to that cheesy
question. Such a clear answer that you're almost burned by its intensity. Such
a clear answer that it guides your every move. This clarity of vision will
allow you to weather temporary failures and setbacks, and it'll provide you a
roadmap for the climb up the mountain.

This is what separates the brilliant-and-hard-working from the brilliant-and-
hard-working-and-uber-successful. The world is full of brilliant, hard working
people who never get a "lucky break." The secret is that the "lucky break" is
often the result of many years of _directed_ effort. So keep that in mind as
you go along. If you want to achieve tremendous success in any field, there's
a buildup period of at least 5 years, and often more than a decade. It really
pays to pick your path early, and to stick to it.

Obviously, some folks have taken more circuitous paths to success, and that's
totally cool. But ask most of the majorly successful people in any profession
what got them there, and they will tell you they focused relentlessly on it.
Ambition isn't enough; ambition needs direction.

Find the ladder you want to climb, and start climbing it -- because most
ladders are pretty damned tall, and hopping between them gets tougher the
older you get.

I say this having learned it the hard way. I traded what I want to do for what
I "should" do for many years, and now I'm trying to catch back up to my
vision. I still have time, but I wish I'd been honest with myself at 19.

~~~
davelocity
great comment. a lot of people don't take the time to step back and think what
they really want.

------
susi22
This is awful advice. I'm sorry but when you're 19 you should go out into the
_world_ (not the US) and discover it. Go book a cheap flight to South America
and go backpacking for a few months. Live on $300 a month, meet interesting
people. Techies, nerds and entrepreneurs aren't _that_ interesting.

But sure, if all that you care about is success and you happen to define
success like most other Americans (i.e. by making the most money) then go
ahead and work as hard as you can and make that million. But please don't
complain about your burnout when you're 30-40.

There is way more than money and work in this live. Don't work too hard
especially when you're young. If you waste a year or two, nothing will run
away and your opportunities will still be there when you're 25.

~~~
jamesaguilar
> If you waste a year or two, nothing will run away and your opportunities
> will still be there when you're 25.

Something tells me this is an aspirational claim rather than a statement with
empirical support. On the other hand, there is a lot of data to support the
view that being out of work for years is very bad for finding a job when you
finally do want one.

~~~
ritchiea
I disagree. There are lots of different types of venturing out into the world
that aren't necessarily just bumming around on the beach. I went traveling
when I was 20 and ended up spending months at a hostel in exchange for
building them a new website. And not only was I working, but I was also
spending time with people older than my peers in the US and hearing about
their life experiences. If you travel with the right mindset, it can be just
as much of a growth experience as working at an interesting company.

~~~
jamesaguilar
I don't think you've contradicted anything I said, but maybe I'm misreading
you? I said being out of work for years is known to lead to worse employment
outcomes in some cases. You said, "I disagree, you can travel and not be out
of work." So, you don't disagree, in other words?

Anyway, I'm not saying that one shouldn't travel, even if you don't work while
traveling. But let's not fool ourselves into thinking there are no risks
involved. You should be aware of the pros and cons of both approaches and
balance them with your personal preferences.

~~~
ritchiea
You're right, I was projecting the idea that "work which is not in a full time
setting in an office in the US is not real work" onto your comment. My
mistake.

------
gregpilling
I was once an ambitious 20 year old (1990). I found that I had an overpowering
urge to do something, and the only part that held me back was that the old
people didn't wan't me to. So I wore them out until I could. I certainly
didn't ask for advice - all the unsolicited advice I was given told me I was
on the wrong path.

So I got a franchise at 20, then ran it as best I could, made a some money and
won some awards. If I was 20 today I would probably make some sort of SaaS
product. I certainly wouldn't be asking “I’m an ambitious 19 year old, what
should I do?”

Of course, some people don't have an overpowering urge to do anything. So
maybe these are the people who ask that question. I once employed a mechanical
engineer like that - at 30 he had no ambitions, no dreams. He didn't last long
at my company because he also lacked skill and was slow.

I am 43 now, and the urge is subdued but still there. I think if you have a
drive in you to make something, then you should go make it. Don't ask for
permission and certainly don't wait for permission. Just go do it. When you
fail, if you fail, pick yourself up and try again. You only really fail when
you stop trying.

My advice for ambitious 19 year olds? Just go do what drives you. If nothing
drives you, find someone who is driven and help them.

------
sama
ok, last comment on this.

this was meant to be more about how to have the biggest impact with your life
than how to make a little more money. and it certainly doesn't apply to
everyone--hence the title. many people will me much happier not following it.

on the money side, there is nothing wrong with taking a job that pays you $30k
more. most people ramp up their spending and don't save that ~$20k (post-tax)
extra, but if you do, more power to you. that $30k will never in your lifetime
compound to $100MM, but if that's not what you're shooting for, that's
obviously fine. it's certainly a much less risky path.

~~~
nostrademons
The part that rang false for me was equating "learning more" with "earning
less". In my experience that's been a false dichotomy. If it's obvious that
you'll learn more in one job, then yes, take that one. But if you're choosing
between two jobs and you can't decide which one will teach you more, pick the
one that pays more, because:

1.) Paying you more indicates that they have more to pay; their top-line is
higher, which means they're probably in a more lucrative and dynamic industry.

2.) Paying you more means they value you more, which indicates they may have
more work for you to do and be willing to give you more responsibility.

In my first job out of college, I had a choice between 3 jobs. One was a
public radio non-profit that needed a techie. One was a VC-funded financial
software startup. One was a bootstrapped financial software startup. The last
offered me about $15K/year more than the others. When I left it two years
later, I'd seen two products through from idea to launch. The VC-funded
startup actually had a better outcome for the company (they got bought), but I
wouldn't have seen much if any of that cash, and since their product was
already pretty set in stone by the time I was interviewing, I wouldn't have
had nearly as much of a chance to learn and make decisions.

------
peter_l_downs

        > No matter what you choose, build stuff and be around smart people.
    

I'm 19, and this rings true for me. I put off my admission to MIT to take a
"gap year" and work at a tech startup in SF. The most interesting and
enjoyable moments have come from building with and learning from my co-
workers, all of whom are brilliant. Other young people reading this: I've
found taking a gap year to be a good hedge between "I want to start my own
company", "I want to go to university", and "I want to work in the real world
and see what that's like."

~~~
sevenironcows
Me too! Spent my gap year working at an awesome startup in London and learned
a crazy amount. Sadly one now needs to work out whether taking up that place
at University is worthwhile. For me, whilst staying in "the real world" is an
attractive option, going to Uni seems like the choice which will open the most
doors long run. Very happy to be proved wrong on that on, however.

~~~
corin_
I have no idea what the right answer, if there is one, would be for you, but
here's the question that helped for me: Rather than thinking about what
opportunities either might give you, looking 10-20 years ahead which option do
you think you might most regret chosing?

------
minimaxir
_Incidentally, don’t let salary be a factor. I just watched someone turn down
one of these breakout companies because Microsoft offered him $30k per year
more in salary—that was a terrible decision. He will not build interesting
things and may not work with smart people._

This article is making the implication that big corporations and job security
are bad; go risk your life for an endeavor with a less-than-5% of success!

~~~
intrazoo
"The reason I suggested college graduates not start startups immediately was
that I felt most would fail. And they will. But ambitious programmers are
better off doing their own thing and failing than going to work at a big
company. Certainly they'll learn more. They might even be better off
financially. A lot of people in their early twenties get into debt, because
their expenses grow even faster than the salary that seemed so high when they
left school. At least if you start a startup and fail your net worth will be
zero rather than negative. " -Paul Graham

~~~
kayoone
Sounds strange to me. I put alot of my own money and some of my parents into
my startup, got seed financing and failed 2 years later. I am now 30 and still
have to pay back my parents and havent saved a dime in my life while being a
pretty decent software developer (not in the US). I learned a ton, but
financially it has been a disaster.

So a Big-Co job ist still not too bad when starting out imo, you probably wont
learn as much but startups are high-risk if you take it seriously.

~~~
argonaut
Well, the mistake you made (and that a 19-year old starting a company should
avoid) was getting into debt in the first place, even if it was with your
family.

~~~
kayoone
yeah, felt like the right decision back then though as we were gaining
traction.

------
dotBen
If you are not a US Citizen and think your career might take you here/want to
come here to the US, then you should do college.

Not having even a crappy and unnecessary degree from a crappy university made
my ability to work in the US very very difficult, and all future immigration
reform for high-skilled workers still orientates around STEM qualifications.

------
cosmc
A lot of this feels like bad advice. Like playing penny stocks rather than
index funds. I am 18, and saying that my most productive years are from 20-25
seems shortsighted and arrogant. The startup community, although cool and
interesting, seems like a gold rush situation to me.

That's why I plan to get my CS degree, and get a stable job, such as one at MS
(which the author seems to look down upon). I could see joining/starting a
startup, if the opportunity popped up, but seeking a risky situation irks
me.Maybe I am just risk adverse?

------
jenius
I don't think easily identifying companies that will "almost certainly be
successful" is within the capabilities of any normal human being. Even the
absolute best people at identifying successful companies get more wrong than
they get right (the right ones just pay well enough to cover the wrongs).

Even if it was only that statement I took issue with, that would be enough to
make me say that this is not actually good advice for a 19-year-old. Be
realistic when giving advice...

------
arizzitano
"working at an already-massively-successful company means you will learn much
less, and probably work with less impressive people."

Not true. I learned more in my first month at a "big company" than in the two
years I spent in the startup world. I started out working for startups, and
while it was fun at first, it was a big mistake. My development skills ended
up stunted and patchy from churning out MVP after MVP. I never learned how to
maintain or scale an application, since most of the time I was just pounding
code as fast as I could, hoping to score more funding. Since most of my
coworkers were also young and inexperienced, I learned little of value and
picked up a lot of bad habits. Maybe I just wasn't enough of a "smart young
person" to pick ideal companies, but really, who is?

That's just my personal experience, but my point is that startups don't
necessarily equal prime education. If you really want to learn and grow, find
a team of disciplined people who understand and enjoy their work. Maybe it's a
startup, maybe it's MSFT -- the size of a company doesn't necessarily dictate
its viability as a learning experience.

------
beat
I just hired a talented, ambitious 18 year old graphic designer as my first
employee. I've known her for several years as a close friend of my daughter
(me, I'm old enough to have 19 year old children), and I thought of her
because I felt she has what it takes to be not just a good graphic designer,
but a good startup employee. And with her freshly out of school and in no
financial position to go to college, she sees the opportunity.

Even if the startup fails, she can probably eke a couple of years of
professional experience and a reference out of the deal - enough to get her on
the path to a nice career. And if the startup succeeds, she has the career and
could make enough in options to pay for art school.

Because she's smart and ambitious, she sees the logic of the situation. I have
no doubt I'll get great work from her.

------
tekacs
Heads-up in counterpoint to the second footnote:

I was most definitely considering academia at 19 (I was near dead-set on it).

Then I got to university and got a good look at academics, doctoral students
and the environment for myself - I'm no longer so sure that it's something I
want to do, at least for now. :)

------
PencilAndPaper
>>However, getting nothing done for four of your most productive years is
actually pretty risky.

This is how I feel about my post secondary education. I regret being herded
into it and wasting all of those years parroting and memorizing so that I
could learn "critical thinking"

------
jmgrosen
Anyone have any particular advice for an ambitious 14 year old with three
years left of high school?

~~~
samsnelling
Yep. Keep learning. Read as much as you can. Start lots of projects. Try and
finish them.

I am 21 and just sold my first startup while finishing my last year in
college. I started programming at 13ish, and have never stopped reading and
learning.

Don't get caught up in what your parents or friends say (it's hard explaining
SaaS to people who don't quite "get it"), but make sure you keep whatever you
build simple enough for them to intuitively use your project. There's no
reason why you can't launch something and start building something now. Go and
do it, and a lot of people will lend a helping hand as you go.

------
6d0debc071
> Starting a company that you’re in love with is the right kind of risk.

Questionable. I know someone who started a company around half a decade ago,
is now out of business with nothing really to fall back on and can't collect
contribution related unemployment benefits because they weren't paying N1
national insurance contributions.

Yay companies! May be a big thing, but some people really should not be
starting companies.

> If you fail at an idea that you really loved and could have been great,
> you’re unlikely to regret it, and people will not hold it against you.

Depends on local culture a lot. Notably in Europe, IME, it's much more likely
to be held against you.

============

I do agree with the general tone of the piece though: That if you want to do
something great you'll have to take on some measure of risk. IMO the time to
take these risks is when you have a strong fall back position. What you don't
want to do is get to 30, have got things wrong repeatedly, and not have a
steady income or a home or anything really to your name. You've got to know
what you're going to do if things go south.

------
adriancooney
I have this exact dilemma of whether to stay in college and build projects on
the side or leave college and get a job at a start up or create my own. I'd
love to be able to choose the latter but the one thing that's holding me back
is that I'm in Ireland and it's not exactly Silicon Valley when it comes to
the start-up scene. It's extremely frustrating because I have the talent and
skills but companies feel it's too high of a risk to relocate and house an 19
year old undergraduate but it's understandable.

~~~
jtbigwoo
Your clock isn't running out to the extent that you think it is. At the rate
most of us go these days, you've got forty more working years, with at least
10 to fifteen childless years if you continue to be drawn to entrepreneurship.

I'd suggest making the choice that moves you toward your goal while still
leaving as many doors open as possible.

------
sbuccini
I faced this dilemna last year. I chose college, and it was t he best decision
of my life. Yes, it's expensive. Yes, I _could_ learn how to code by sheer
willpower and practice. But the people I've met and the things I have learned,
not just academic lessons but lessons about life as well, have already made
the experience worth it.

My advice to people in my situation is to really, _really_ think about your
decision. It's sexy to drop out these days, but it's not always the right
thing to do

------
eshvk
Interesting. I see two types of assumptions (in the comments):

1\. MSR does cool research projects, any one joins has a chance of working on
those. A large percentage of the people who work there are research PhDs.
Similarly working at Google doesn't necessarily mean you get closer to flying
balloons or whatever.

2\. Money is bad, learning/glory is good. Simplistic. Spouted by people who
can't pay you well. My response: I am curious, I will learn anywhere. Fuck
You, Pay Me.

------
aphelion
The thing about risk-seeking ambitious 19 year olds is that they have
absolutely no real idea what risk is, or what their real ambitions for their
life will be.

------
lettergram
My intent is a mixture of both, I'm taking the safer route. Go to college,
work on projects (in school and out), then i'm going to (hopefully) get paid
at a corporation, get some experience. Then when I have a life settled when
i'm 25-26 start a company, with a bit of financial backing, no student loans,
it makes more sense than going out with no support and no experience (in my
view).

------
QuantumGuy
I am 19 and I think this is terrible advice.I would love to work at Microsoft
not just because of the pay but because of the people I would work with. Some
of the greatest minds in the world call Microsoft their place of work. Mind
you I am doing my own thing and not looking to get hired but still if
presented the chance I would take it.

------
rats
Guys, anyone. What is "W record"?

------
bliker
I expected advice.

Now I am more indecisive than before.

------
michaelochurch
_Becoming employee number 50 at a company that still has a good chance of
failure is the wrong kind of risk._

I agree. Actually, those VC darlings aren't likely to fail in the classic,
pink-slips-for-all, sense because the VCs have already worked out an emergency
acq-hire and a backup emergency acq-hire. They are, however, likely to fail
_you_ , which is worse. Now you have to explain a bad separation from a
company that still exists and has pump-and-dump VCs and tech press (still in
the "pump" phase, obviously) propping up its reputation.

 _If you join a company, my general advice is to join a company on a breakout
trajectory. There are a usually a handful of these at a time, and they are
usually identifiable to a smart young person._

Citation needed. I'm no longer very young (I'm 30) but I'm quite smart and
still 0 for 2 when it comes to picking startups. Incidentally, I don't doubt
that I'm better at judging companies than most engineers and VCs; I'm probably
above 95th percentile in judgment of talent (judgment of character I could
work on) but it's just really hard to forecast startups. Most people who think
they can do it, can't. Most people who think they can't do it are right.

Also, most of us don't pick from the full space of companies, either. We pick
opportunities that make sense in the context of our career stories (career
coherency). For example, I'm reaching an age where non-senior/lead roles
(except at top AI labs or hedge funds) don't really make sense anymore. If I'm
not a strong match (enough to qualify for a senior role) it doesn't make sense
for me to apply even if the company looks like a "rocket ship", because a
junior role is not acceptable at my stage unless the people are known, world-
class entities.

~~~
pchristensen
_company on a breakout trajectory_

I think he's talking about companies like Square now, Groupon a few years ago,
Facebook a few years before that, Google a few years before that. $1B+
valuations, positive glowing aura, disproportionate talent attraction. The
kind of company where you can tell almost anyone you work there and they say
"Wow, what's that like?"

~~~
michaelochurch
Sure, but by the time companies are at that point, the equity they give out is
trivial (sub-0.01%) and the important positions are already filled.

------
throwaway10001
_I just watched someone turn down one of these breakout companies because
Microsoft offered him $30k per year more in salary—that was a terrible
decision. He will not build interesting things and may not work with smart
people._

Interesting things....like making people click on ads? Microsoft products are
used by billions of people worldwide and by virtually every Fortune ()
company. And then we have Microsoft Research, love or hate Microsoft as
company all you want but Microsoft Research is top notch. Quite a few smart
people there
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_Research](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_Research).
Maybe not as smart as Sam Altman (the OP) but smart nonetheless.

~~~
selimthegrim
I've met and had the opportunity to learn from top people at Microsoft
Research in Santa Barbara. I guarantee you Sam Altman isn't fit to tie their
shoelaces. No disrespect to him and not saying he couldn't get there, but
they're just in a totally different ballpark and level of problem solving and
execution. They're solving problems people don't even realize they're going to
have yet.

~~~
FakeSamAltman
They are solving problems people won't ever realize they're going to have.

~~~
selimthegrim
This is a fair point. But what's that saying about talent hitting the target
in front of you, but genius hitting the target no one knew was there?

