
Many Covid Patients Have Terrifying Hallucinations and Delirium - samspenc
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/28/health/coronavirus-delirium-hallucinations.html
======
a-wu
> The ingredients for delirium are pervasive during the pandemic. They include
> long stints on ventilators, heavy sedatives and poor sleep.

> To allow the ventilator to completely breathe for him, doctors had him
> chemically paralyzed, which required heavier sedatives to prevent the trauma
> of being conscious while unable to move. So Mr. Temko’s sedation was
> switched to midazolam, a benzodiazepine, and fentanyl, an opioid — drugs
> that exacerbate delirium.

> The repeated nursing visits Mr. Temko needed interrupted his sleep-wake
> cycle, so he’d often take daytime naps and become sleepless and agitated at
> night, said Jason Bloomer, an I.C.U. nurse.

Sounds like a perfect storm for delirium. I've had several stints in the
hospital and the ones in the ICU and tele-wing were the worst. The opiates
combined with the constant interruptions in the middle of the night meant that
I got terrible sleep but also was constantly drowsy so I felt like I was in a
persistent zombie state. When I was able to sleep it would be this half-
awake/half-asleep state and I would talk out loud. I really sympathize with
these people. Being hospitalized sucks (but yes, obviously I'd rather be
hospitalized than die).

~~~
Balgair
ICU Psychosis/Delerium is a really real thing [0]. And it is not fun,
especially for pediatric patients or otherwise mentally atypical people.

One of the ways SV is trying to help with this is via AR/VR. The research is
_slow_ going, but there may be some promise. If you can use VR/AR to lessen
some depression/pain medication dosages, you can open up a lot of other drugs
for use.

Maybe you can let long term patients out to a VR beach for a few hours or go
back home or to church. Maybe let them game/socialize for a bit while
partially mobilized. Every little thing helps (maybe, send more grants).

[0]
[https://www.medicinenet.com/icu_psychosis/article.htm](https://www.medicinenet.com/icu_psychosis/article.htm)

------
bacon_waffle
Glad to see it's getting more coverage. An elderly family member contracted
COVID-19 and experienced confusion which progressed to full-on delirium and
intense pain for their last several days. They didn't exhibit much respiratory
trouble at all, no interventions were necessary beyond the supplemental oxygen
they were on before.

I get the impression that many still think of this as simply a bad flu, and
believe that a more accurate picture of the effects of the disease might help
people respond a bit more sensibly.

~~~
selimthegrim
Sorry for your loss.

------
empath75
My dad’s pancreas burst five years or so ago, which basically caused multiple
organ failure — kidneys, liver, lungs. He was on dialysis and a ventilator for
weeks, the doctors told us he had about a 20% chance of surviving.

He experienced what this article is talking about — icu psychosis.

He thought that he had been kidnapped, that he was being tortured, that I was
trying to kill him and replace him. He begged me for mercy, he apologized for
anything he did to me. And I was just standing there telling him he was going
to be okay. He didn’t know who I was a lot of the time. It was terrifying to
watch.

Eventually they put him into an induced coma when they put him on a
ventilator, but even after they woke him up, it took a week for him to realize
who he was and who we were and what had happened to him. He kept begging us to
take him home.

Every time he woke up, we had to tell him where he was, who we were, what
happened to him, what year it was what day it was.

It really took him 6 months to get anything close to who he was when he went
in and he’s still not completely the same person. The light went out in some
ways and never came back in again.

~~~
idunno246
My sister was on a respirator for three days pre-covid. Came out refusing food
and drink for weeks, hated us, thought the nurses were trying to inject bleach
in her ivs. It’s rough, totally feel for what you went through

Did a bunch of research, this isn’t covid specific, some huge percentage of
people in the icu go through this but it’s not publicized nearly enough. The
worst part is it’s a known thing, but there’s zero mental health support
coming out of it. Especially since my sister went to rehab, they just weren’t
staffed for it but couldn’t get her to people who were until the rehab ran
it’s course.

~~~
empath75
Yeah the doctors were all like, yeah this happens all the time don’t worry
about it, but it’s hard to not worry about it when your father is having a
psychotic break.

------
renewiltord
Is this any different from any really bad disease that gives you a fever and
lowers bloody oxygenation? I know I was completely delirious when I had some
damned good leptospirosis. I thought my body parts were having a breakup
conversation with me and that they'd each decided to go separate ways after
that.

~~~
wyldfire
A bacterial infection that was probably nowhere near as transmissible and
treatable with antibiotics? Sounds way different from SARS-CoV-2.

EDIT: gee, sorry if this came off the wrong way but I really was trying to
answer the question "is this any different ...?"

~~~
noobaccount
Don’t take the downvotes personally. The censors are part of our societal
problem.

~~~
wwright
A group of people telling you that they don’t like what you say isn’t
censorship, it’s being in the out-group, and it’s been a thing since animals
evolved social behavior

If you want to see real examples of censorship, a forum for liberal tech nerds
overlapping with venture capitalists probably ain’t it

------
ars
This is not from the COVID virus, it's from the sedation.

It happens a LOT with sedated patients, and no one tells them about it first.
It can leave some patients with severe PTSD because the same sedation that
causes it also blocks them from communicating about it.

See: [https://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/07/22/nightmares-
after-t...](https://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/07/22/nightmares-after-the-i-
c-u/) or just search for "sedation hallucinations".

~~~
brbsix
I've heard it been referred to as postoperative delirium. My SO has spent a
good amount of time in hospitals, but coming out surgery this last time she
started to hallucinate. At first we all had a good time as she described these
fantastical visions to her nurses and I as if she were watching something on
TV. Later things started to get quite terrifying. She was convinced that the
nurses were conspiring to kill her. Not a fun experience, but I've heard from
many others that it's a fairly common one.

------
mrfusion
This thing is pretty amazing for a corona virus. Crosses species between
humans, dogs, and tigers. Gets into just about every organ. Is harmless to
children but gives some Kawasaki. It even gives some people diabetes.

~~~
Aeolun
So many strange traits that have never been seen combined before in the same
virus. I can see why some people say it was engineered.

~~~
usaar333
Most of the traits noted above were applicable to SARS as well.

~~~
generatorguy
Except for the extreme ease of transmission between humans function this virus
somehow is well adapted to.

------
amyjess
I've been seeing an increasing number of people saying covid is more of a
neurological disease than anything else.

I first started seeing it in regard to the "happy hypoxics" [0], and I've been
seeing more and more reports on the neurological effects... [1]

This is bad.

[0] [https://www.cnn.com/2020/05/06/health/happy-hypoxia-pulse-
ox...](https://www.cnn.com/2020/05/06/health/happy-hypoxia-pulse-oximeter-
trnd-wellness/index.html)

[1] [https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20200622-the-long-term-
ef...](https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20200622-the-long-term-effects-of-
covid-19-infection)

~~~
H8crilA
> covid is more of a neurological disease than anything else

It seems that there are neurological complications (as well as clotting
problems and kidney problems), but let's not forget that this disease
primarily turns lungs into chewing gum. I don't think any neurological
complication can cause a patient to self-destruct their lungs.

~~~
mrfusion
Well for some people it could damage lungs but chewing gum is an extreme
description.

25 percent to 80 percent of people with COVID-19 have such mild cases that
they are unaware they have the virus. [https://www.healthline.com/health-
news/50-percent-of-people-...](https://www.healthline.com/health-
news/50-percent-of-people-with-covid19-not-aware-have-virus)

Beyond that a follow up study done on severe patients with lung damage that
showed the damage healed within 2.5 months:
[https://www.researchsquare.com/article/rs-27359/v1](https://www.researchsquare.com/article/rs-27359/v1)

~~~
glandium
Some (a lot?) people unaware they had the virus have later been found to have
lung damage.

~~~
mrfusion
Source?

~~~
glandium
Google for "silent lung damage covid", you'll find multiple articles with
possibly links to studies. IIRC, it came up as early as when people from the
Diamond Princess have been studied.

BTW:

 _> Beyond that a follow up study done on severe patients with lung damage
that showed the damage healed within 2.5 months_

That's good news. Some weeks ago, medical researchers were afraid the damage
might be permanent.

~~~
amyjess
For what it's worth, another good search term to use would be "ground glass
opacities".

------
rapjr9
I've experienced this during a previous illness. My suspicion is that some of
it is caused by withdrawal from alcohol. Many people drink a lot and when
entering a hospital ICU you are suddenly a teetotaler. This, in combination
with opiates, seems like a recipe for delirium. Maybe there is no other
recourse, certainly giving a patient alcohol while using opiates in an ICU
seems like a bad idea, although clinicians are used to carefully maintaining
balances of drug combinations. This also seems like an area where research is
not being funded, similar to how research into finding a cure for the ill
effects of alcohol on the body is not funded. There is a strong streak of
misplaced moralism in medicine that has been present for decades if not
centuries, that I believe inclines doctors to think such bad effects are
punishment for drinking in the first place and hence letting people suffer is
just. I hope I'm wrong.

------
ck2
covid is going to have long-term, even lifelong damage for many, it is not
being covered by media (and soon not even insurance) only "deaths" seem
dramatic enough and then people write it off with "well I'm not going to die"
but there are states that may be worse than death, permanent damage to lungs
and hearts and now minds

[https://globalnews.ca/news/7111094/coronavirus-scientists-
he...](https://globalnews.ca/news/7111094/coronavirus-scientists-health-
problems/)

[https://tribunecontentagency.com/article/the-enduring-
grip-o...](https://tribunecontentagency.com/article/the-enduring-grip-of-
covid-19/)

------
eiji
How many? This is a disease with millions of cases. Tell me the article has at
least some numbers.

Can't read it due to paywall. I'm expecting "reports" and anecdotes. Any
disease that impacts the body will show a great range of effects. If the case
reports is not in the 5 or six digits we are really talking about a rare. Not
many. Everything can be "many" with case numbers this high.

~~~
wyldfire
[http://archive.is/KnD9Q](http://archive.is/KnD9Q)

~~~
eiji
Nothing. Anecdotes and individual hand picked stories. You can get
hallucinations from smoking pot or a heat stroke. Pure manufacturing of
societal fear.

I don't mind reporting on this, but this is click bait. It should say "in rare
cases or unknown cases this happens". Not "many".

~~~
quicklime
This looks like more than anecdotes and individual hand picked stories to me:

> Reports from hospitals and researchers suggest that about two-thirds to
> three-quarters of coronavirus patients in I.C.U.’s have experienced it in
> various ways.

TFA cites the following for the two-thirds[1] and three-quarters[2] figures:

[1]
[https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMc2008597](https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMc2008597)

[2]
[https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.05.31.20118679v...](https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.05.31.20118679v1.full.pdf)

~~~
ramphastidae
I wouldn’t waste your time.

OP admits themselves that they had already made up their mind about the
content of an article they couldn’t even view. They’re not arguing in good
faith.

~~~
eiji
Not two thirds of corona virus patients!

One study is named Neurologic Features in Severe SARS-CoV-2 Infection. Severe!
The other is named irium Incidence, Duration and Severity in Critically Ill
Patients with COVID-19. Critically ill!

So we talking about critically ill patients. Within the US that's rare. Simple
numbers. When you say two thirds, make it clear what two thirds you are
actually talking about. Leaving out half of the context will make anything
look scary. That is why people on the street say you might be asymptomatic but
you get brain damage. Which is BS. First you have to be critically ill from
covid19. With all treatment side effects and everything. So no, your
asymptomatic friend is not having hallucinations. Pure click bait.

------
m0zg
Many NYTimes journalists have terrifying thoughts that covid fear porn will be
harder to write in the coming weeks. Yesterday 285 people died of (or, to be
more precise, _with_) C19 nationwide, and deaths have been trending down since
mid-April. Yet we're still treated daily to a "we're all gonna die for real
now" rhetoric.

~~~
bla3
It's Sunday, for whatever reason deaths / day are down 50% on weekends. N new
cases per day fairly consistently lead to >= 5% of N dying a bit over a week
later, so with 40k new cases a day at the moment that's 2k death/day. That's
over 10k / week. Even compared to the number of natural deaths (320M replaced
over 80 years => 77k / week), that's a pretty sizable figure -- 13% higher
mortality than normal.

~~~
m0zg
Look at the trendline for deaths. It's the only one that really matters. It's
been going down linearly since mid-April. It looks like the recent "increase"
in cases is due to some states (e.g. Texas) counting serology tests as "Covid
tests" in addition to rT-PCR.

[https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/us/](https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/us/)

