
Ask HN: Are programmer salaries expected to drastically drop in the near future? - integricho
Essentially my question is related to whether there is a saturation of programmers in progress right now?<p>Looking at freelancing sites it seems that programmers from many regions come to work for ridiculously low rates. As programming is considered one of the more rewarding jobs regarding payment (at least in developing countries like mine), it makes me wonder whether this state will remain as it is now, or we should be expecting that it will fall apart, essentially putting programming jobs back to the same level with other day-to-day jobs.
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sokoloff
I don't see any evidence of saturation and as a hiring manager with a couple
hundred person organization, I'm sure not budgeting for cuts or dramatic
shifts downward in engineering labor cost.

As for programming jobs regressing to day-to-day job compensation, I don't see
that as likely. In a good case (not even the "best" case), programming can
create substantial multiples of the value created by a regular job. There's no
reason for me to think that if we suddenly got more truly qualified engineers
(that's a big "if"), that we wouldn't discover even more things that would
demand qualified engineers to do and still be +EV for the companies.

Let me turn it around. What if you did know, with certainty, that programming
jobs would regress in compensation. What would you do about it?

~~~
integricho
Interesting point, and to be honest I'm not sure what would I do at this
point, so far my main philosophy was that deep understanding of fields that
you specialize in + years of experience would pull you through whatever has to
come. This is why I asked the question, wasn't sure if that holds true or not.

~~~
sokoloff
Years of experience is completely over-played by a lot of people (and in my
experience, it does seem specifically overplayed in the case of programmers
from India, possibly because of the strong influence of Wipro and similar
shops in that market, possibly because of cultural influences or other factors
that I don't understand).

A Java dev with 7 years experience and a Java dev with 12 years of experience
are "utterly the same" in my book. Without any other information, I'd be
willing to flip a coin between the two. That might even hold true for all
values 4 or greater; I'm not sure.

I'd much rather have someone with 2 years Javascript, 3 years .Net, and some
hobby work in Haskell or Go, even if I was hiring for a Java project. That
person shows they have passion for programming, not about getting a
programming job. (Yes, someone on the team would need JVM experience.)

There are other hiring managers and many recruiters who just want "N years or
more in X tech", so if you are more comfortable getting N+1 years in X tech,
you'll probably be able to keep finding jobs, but to me "finding jobs" isn't
the only (or even primary) point of working in our field.

To be clear: deep understanding of a specialty and able to work effectively on
a team is great and should always bring value. Years of experience (once over
a pretty low threshold) is mostly irrelevant IMO. See:
[http://chiefexecutive.net/ideo-ceo-tim-brown-t-shaped-
stars-...](http://chiefexecutive.net/ideo-ceo-tim-brown-t-shaped-stars-the-
backbone-of-ideoae%E2%84%A2s-collaborative-culture/)

~~~
brianwawok
> A Java dev with 7 years experience and a Java dev with 12 years of
> experience are "utterly the same" in my book

Most people will hire the 7, as he is generally about 10-20k cheaper... (see
ageism problems)

~~~
sokoloff
Why would they be 10-20K cheaper, especially if that was 1 year of experience
7 vs. 12 times in a row?

I don't think this is an ageism problem at all. (I'm 45 by the way, supposedly
squarely in the crosshairs of ageism in our industry.)

Ceteris paribus, I think we can all agree that someone with 2 years of
industry experience is more valuable than a fresh college grad. Most would
think that 4 years is more valuable than 2. Thus, it's appropriate that people
in that stage of their career are getting promotions and raises in excess of
inflation/CoLA increments, as this reflects a fair price for their increasing
value.

At some point, if that same person stops really learning, growing, and
differentiating themselves, their value stops going up (except for modest
inflationary raises).

If that 12 year veteran is no better than the 7 year veteran but won't take a
job offer at the same wage, then they damn well deserve to not get the job,
IMO. That's not ageism; that's simple, proper, natural market forces.

Companies pay programmers to create value, not to be old or young. If I can
create the same value as someone older or younger, I should be paid the same
as them, regardless of age or years of experience.

~~~
brianwawok
Except you are missing how salary works.

It is never "You create X value. We will pay you .5x" (Outside of very niche
places like Trading).

99% of the world is "Oh you made X at your last job? We can pay you X + 10k.

Hence the older dev tends to make slightly more salary than the younger dev,
even if the skillset was similar. And by older, I mean years of coding not
physical age. If a guy was a chef for 20 years and a programmer for 3, he is
the same programmer age as a 3 year out of college guy.

~~~
sokoloff
I agree that many places work that way, particularly if they have no idea how
much value a dev creates. I don't know if it's 99% or not; that seems high to
me, and even at such places, if I go in with proof/truth that I made $500K at
my last job, I'm not getting an offer for $510K as a dev...

~~~
brianwawok
500k will not lead to a 510k offer. If you aren't someone famous, likely true.

But if you have two identical guys going for 2 spots.. one guy last made 120,
one guy last made 160. I bet their offers are 130 and 170, despite their
IDENTICAL skills.

This is why the salary of your first few jobs after college matters so much.
Screw it up by 10k and you can EASILY lose 200-300k of salary over your
career.

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tedmiston
It really depends on your skill level. Becoming an entry-level programmer,
basic front-end dev, etc has become easier and easier in recent years, however
the further you move up the ladder / the more advanced your skills get, the
talent pool is small. Making the jump from journeyman programmer (what most
bootcamps focus on) to _software engineer_ with a solid grasp on CS
fundamentals and running at scale is non-trivial.

------
ericb
Seems pretty unlikely. Back in the early 2000's the freelance sites often had
prices that were 1/10 or 1/20th of US rates. Unless these places are getting
cheaper--and they're not, because the rates in a location mainly tend to
increase--there's not much to fear.

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cweagans
Freelancing sites are not good indicators of the industry at large, IMO. The
rates on elance and similar sites have always been pretty low. gun.io is
pretty much the only exception to this that I've found, and that's because
they do some vetting of the clients beforehand. Highly recommend checking that
out if you need work. I am not affiliated in any way with gun.io, other than
being a happy user of their platform (as a freelancer).

------
itamarst
The current tech bubble is likely to burst eventually. In 2000 when that
happened jobs became harder to find.

That wasn't a dramatic drop, more of a bimodal thing where some did fine and
some had no income at all.

~~~
aphextron
>The current tech bubble is likely to burst eventually.

Is it a bubble though? I think this is just the new normal. A good portion of
the largest companies on earth are silicon valley tech companies now. They are
driving trillions of dollars in combined revenue. This is what the future of
employment looks like.

~~~
kasey_junk
By what metric are you judging largest companies? I suppose by us market cap
you have Apple, Google & Facebook near the top of the list but it's hard to
conclude SV tech companies are a large portion other than those.

------
DeonPenny
No, I haven't worked at any company where we felt has enough engineers most of
the time it was quite the opposite. A lot more industries are now augmented or
being replaced with software.

Not to mention that those foreign programmers as plentiful as they may be,
don't typically pass the bar for many of these companies. If so those
countries would just build their own companies. Why would they even need to
freelance here? This issue being building product is hard and silicon valley
despite it's less than academic reputation has gotten really good at building
things.

------
kchauhan
Yes it will going decrease but in certain situation.

If technology become common and lots of developers are in that same technology
then changes are high that rate will go decrease.

But at same time you will find something latest, something complex and
something which needs mastery to accomplish - for this salaries will remain
high as it is.

'I wonder what would happen, if there were a language so complicated, so
difficult to learn, that nobody would ever be able to swamp the market with
programmers?' \- Bjarne Stroustrup [1]

[1].
[http://harmful.cat-v.org/software/c++/I_did_it_for_you_all](http://harmful.cat-v.org/software/c++/I_did_it_for_you_all)

------
Philomath
There is certainly an increase in the number of people interested in learning
programming, but there's also a shift in the global economy where old
enterprises are being modernised and therefore need programmers.

What I would seriously consider is to be really up to date with what
programming skills you get. Maybe frontend isn't what you need, but AI and NLP
is.

------
tslug
Yes, in general, available work will decline significantly as will pay. That
said, there will be an ever-narrowing niche for work that requires extremely
high skill and that pays unprecedentedly and increasingly high returns. This
is because every time a piece of software antiquates a former programming
market, that software requires a shrinking group of even more talented coders
to develop.

We're seeing this in machine learning right now. Machine learning can replace
a lot of the code we used to implement with expert systems or rote heuristics.
If you can develop that code (and not many can), you can command unusually
high salaries, but there will come a time when developing machine intelligence
becomes fairly straightforward itself. In fact, this is already beginning to
happen. And then even these coders with their rare skills will start to see
their salaries fall.

This has been a consistent pattern throughout the history of software
engineering. However, I believe we're going to see salaries fall off a cliff
soon, because I believe we're actually quite close to automating good software
engineering in general.

It's going to be amusing, as a lot of the best coders feel particularly
superior and entitled to their impressive compensations.

~~~
whenwillitstop
Yeah I think the same thing. If we compare Hadoop to Spark, Spark is just
easier and faster. It is superior in almost every way (unless we are talking
about 1PB+ scale). I think data science will be automated. Some things wont,
but engineers can already get pretty far by jamming data into ML packages.

------
wayn3
"web dev" is going to go down. "engineering" is not. learn real skills.

if your skillset is "i can write crud apps", india is not your competition. AI
is.

~~~
wbayg
Can you elaborate on "real skills"?

~~~
wayn3
about 95% of all "engineers" think that math skills are not necessary and
anything that requires actual original thought has no place in their workday.
you can apply this to web dev the same way you can apply it to AI. Tensorflow
is already here. in order to run a somewhat working "machine learning" thing,
all you have to do is grab a model of the shelf and shove your data through
it. web dev isnt really the problem.

lets say you work in web dev, though: can you implement an http server from
scratch? can you write an application without relying on a web framework? I'm
not saying that that makes sense from a business point of view, but unless you
can actually do these things - at least in principle - you dont really
understand your job.

same thing with AI. of course you dont need even undergrad math to run a
model. nobody has to. but do you really understand whats going on unless you
can speak confidently on measures, confidence intervals, model building,
tradeoffs between models, running scientific experiments, linear algebra etc.?
i dont think so. you may be able to hang on. but you dont really know what
youre doing. not really.

very coincidentally, the people who always say you dont need actual skills are
the same people who are running around scared to death by the next impending
wave of layoffs.

if you have real skills, you wont ever be laid off. not going to happen.

i dont really care whether ai solves crud jobs or not. why would i? i think
its likely. maybe its not. time will tell.

but its a bit cute for 5 million ios app developers to tell themselves that
they will find the same job creating the same single page "uberified"
interface over and over and over again. i dont know whether its ignorance or
arrogance and i certainly dont care. but if i was them, id be at least aware
of the possibility that it could happen.

------
stachenfeld
Not in the near future for sure. Right now, programming is still contained
(for the most part) to product development/ web stuff. The next step is for
programming to leak into all aspects of business - from lead generation to
marketing automation to operations optimization and really across all the
boards. This is already happening in 'tech' companies, but will soon be
prevalent across all industries. If you want job stability, learn code AND a
non-technical skill like marketing, and you'll be gold.

------
golergka
Try talking to these cheap freelance developers, and look at the quality of
code they produce.

------
bsvalley
The answer to your question is the same as: will the cost of living
drastically drop in the near future?

Nope. Salaries? Same.

------
baybal2
Rates on freelancing websites were sky high for every non-western country
(plus, you don't need pay tax on income from abroad), but people tend to die,
age, or move on from development. This is in part a reflection of normal
demograpgic trends. Freelancer rates were rising for the last 10y

