
Cliff Stoll, the mad scientist who invented the art of hunting hackers - wglb
https://www.wired.com/story/meet-the-mad-scientist-who-wrote-the-book-on-how-to-hunt-hackers/
======
numlocked
At work, we give Cliff’s Klein bottles as the quarterly award for engineering
excellence. When I ordered the first batch, I called the number on the Acme
Klein bottles website to ask whether they could be engraved (the site states
the CLIFF won’t engrave the bottles but I wanted clarification if ANYONE would
engrave them). It rang and went to voicemail. I started leaving a message with
my question when suddenly there was a lot of noise as the phone was picked up
(apparently it was a real answering machine) by someone shouting “don’t hang
up! Don’t hang up!”. It was Cliff. I was briefly star-struck, told him what an
influence The Cuckoo’s Egg had on me when I was younger, and then received a
15-minute oral history of engraving methods and why none of them would work on
his Klein bottles. An absolute highlight of my year, and I think they’ve been
well received as engineering awards...even if we have to use a label-maker to
add the recipient’s name :)

~~~
driverdan
Did he say why laser engraving wouldn't work? I can see the curves causing
some distortion but you should be able to compensate for that.

Edit: He answers the question in his FAQ

> The borosilicate glass laughs at laser beams

..which makes sense. Seems like sand blasting would be the best way.

~~~
CliffStoll
In short - engraving borosilicate is difficult, because it does not expand
very much when heated. So when hit by an infrared laser beam, the glass
doesn't locally expand and spall off a tiny speck of glass .... instead, the
glass locally _melts_. When the beam moves on to the next pixel, the first
site either solidifies or sometimes dribbles away. Laser engraving of
borosilicate just doesn't work well. And, because of the compound curves of
the Klein bottle, you need a big depth of field as well as a rotary bottle
holder. All laser engravers that I've played with have a very short (10mm or
so) depth of field. Diamond engraving doesn't work well because of the curves.
Sandblasting with a rubber mask works, but making the mask is a pain. So,
after lots of attempts, I've given up on engraving these guys. Also: mistakes
are expensive -- this is hand-blown glass.

~~~
pmoriarty
Can't acid be used to etch glass?

Also, why not use glass that's easier to etch?

~~~
wnkrshm
With quartz glass, it's going to be hydrofluoric acid and I invite you to read
up about its toxicity and lethality (user stories like: splashed a few ml on a
leg, did all the emergency procedures exactly right, got quick emergency care,
leg amputated, died anyways).

~~~
benibela
HF is also used to wash cars by people wearing no protection,
[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5779585/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5779585/)

E.g. "As a case example, one worker (case 1) splashed his left leg while
transferring a cleaning solution of HF and sulfuric acid between containers.
He did not irrigate the area and continued to work for approximately 1.5 hours
with soaked pants and shoe until he developed an uncomfortable burning
sensation" ...

~~~
mcguire
" _...Upon evaluation, the patient was reported to have a quarter-sized brown
necrotic area on the anterior left ankle and burn to the anterior left lower
leg. Emergency medical technicians irrigated the area with calcium gluconate
and transported him to a burn unit, where he received a calcium gluconate
injection. He sustained a small area of full-thickness skin loss requiring
excision and debridement with a skin graft. The worker received outpatient
burn therapy and returned to part-time work 6 weeks after the injury. A foot
paresthesia developed, and the worker received a permanent partial disability
payment._ "

I'm going with "things I won't work with", Alex.

------
eddieroger
Sometime in high school (middle maybe?), I had to pick a non-fiction book to
read for school, and picked Cuckoo's Egg by Stoll. I was already in to
computers, but had no idea what was possible or where that interest in
computers would or could go, and this booked changed my view for the better. I
distinctly remember my teacher questioning it was non-fiction when reading the
jacket, but sure enough, it was. It's an great memory and amazing book, well
worth reading still.

~~~
nerfhammer
Check out more recent interviews with him. Interesting guy:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-k3mVnRlQLU](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-k3mVnRlQLU)

~~~
tectonic
He's my neighbor. I went over to his house and received this exact experience.
It's very practiced and pretty amazing.

------
hyperman1
I find this remarkable:

    
    
      This is the other ingredient to Stoll’s hacker-hunting obsession [...] a kind of low-burning moral outrage.
    

because I notice the same in a lot of other people worth listening to. In
general you won't notice it until you spend some time with them. There is some
internal moral compass influencing all decisions subtly, even in the knowledge
most of the world doesn't care. Its different from SJWs etc in that its mostly
silent, internal, invisible, doing instead of saying.

For an other example, here's what Neil Gaiman says about Terry Pratchett:

    
    
      There is a fury to Terry Pratchett’s writing: it’s the fury that was the engine that powered Discworld 
    

[https://www.theguardian.com/books/2014/sep/24/terry-
pratchet...](https://www.theguardian.com/books/2014/sep/24/terry-pratchett-
angry-not-jolly-neil-gaiman)

~~~
tclancy
>Its different from SJWs etc in that its mostly silent, internal, invisible,
doing instead of saying.

You lost me right there. At some point enough tinder on the lowest burn turns
into fire. The end of the interview suggests much the same on the part of the
subject.

------
musingsole
I bought one of his Klein bottles and on top of being a great piece of work,
he sent along with it fantastic pictures of him putting it in the box for
shipping. Probably my favorite experience buying anything ever.

~~~
CliffStoll
You bet, MusingSole ... customer service is easy when you run a zero volume
business.

~~~
numlocked
Just caught the “zero volume” joke, upon second reading.

~~~
StavrosK
Hah, I hadn't until your comment. That's a good joke.

------
at_a_remove
The book is completely fascinating from multiple perspectives and I suggest
anyone who wants to get a feel for the era read it. It's quite enjoyable, as
well. The Internet, today, feels very metropolitan in some ways, but then this
was something of a wild frontier.

Reading _The Cuckoo 's Egg_ gave me a frisson of recognition, as I was
similarly torn between the abstract world of physics and the (comparatively)
more concrete world of computing, as well as running into people mucking about
where they had no business being during a time period when law enforcement had
yet to develop a solid framework for responding to those sorts of issues.

I have considered contacting him purely for some hourglass work, or at least
tips as to what to look for.

~~~
lscotte
Back when I watched the original NOVA episode, I noticed they showed his UUCP
email address. Since I had recorded it on VHS, I paused it so I could write it
down. I emailed Cliff, apologetically, but thanking him for the story. I was
quite surprised when he replied. Super nice guy, great story well told. It was
probably a decade later that I read the book but somehow his narration in the
NOVA episode is very personable and real, it just nails the story; and the
interview with the actual hacker is great.

~~~
CliffStoll
UUCP email? Ouch! Sends me back several decades...

~~~
lscotte
At least anyone who watches the episode today can't use that as a hint to bug
you like I did nearly 30 years ago. :-)

------
pseudolus
His follow-up book "Silicon Snake Oil: Second Thoughts on the Information
Highway" was also a great read [0]. It's a shame that collectively we couldn't
heed some of his warnings about the hype we were being sold about the
Internet. In many ways the future he hinted at turned out to be substantially
worse than he predicted.

[0]
[https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0385419945/ref=dbs_a_def_r...](https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0385419945/ref=dbs_a_def_rwt_bibl_vppi_i2)

~~~
fmajid
+1 for a silicon Snake Oil.

There are many hucksters out to make money from overstretched school budgets
by pandering to parents’ tech anxiety, and no money in sage warnings, and in
our marketing-driven attention economy, that means the latter is ignored to
the detriment of the common interest.

------
hprotagonist
I am perpetually happy that Cliff Stoll figured out how to be his normal weird
self in the world.

That unselfconsious joy about stuff is exceptionally wholesome.

~~~
CliffStoll
Zooks! My normal-weird self. I gotta parse that...

~~~
hprotagonist
It is seductively easy to become jaded and "too cool" to show how into
something one might be. Kids are allowed to, but starting at about age 14,
I've found that society tends to do its best to tamp this exuberance down.

The other trap is to figure that even if you're really into something you
somehow have to be "serious" about it in a way that means you can't admit that
you're having any fun -- or that you have to work on "serious problems".

You avoided the traps! You are an inspiration, as a direct result. The very
best people I know all have this trait -- a very early mentor in my life, my
graduate advisors...

So, thanks. :)

~~~
CliffStoll
And thank you for your kind note, Protagonist of H. Funny you should mention
it ... round 14 years old, I stopped watching TV. I was too busy building a
ham radio set; I'd come home and dive into electronics. And, well, I've not
watched television since then. I've missed an enormous amount of popular
culture & goodness knows what else. On the other hand, it's a bit like being
given a few hours every day to build stuff or figure out how things work. I
guess this tends to make my 'normal' into 'weird'.

~~~
themodelplumber
Cliff, it's neat to see your jumping in here. Thanks for sharing your time
with us. I have enjoyed periodically re-reading _The Cuckoo's Egg_ since my
sister gifted the book to me in the early '90s. I didn't know you were a ham
though; may I ask what was/is your call sign? And are you still active in the
hobby? Just curious & thanks again. 73

~~~
CliffStoll
K7TA ... got the call when I was in grad school in Tucson Arizona. But I don't
get on the air much ... a little bit of CW on the low bands, just to keep my
fist in order.

~~~
wglb
Check out FT8

~~~
taborj
I love FT8, but I think Cliff would probably find it a bit boring. It's too
automated, it's basically computers talking to each other.

To an introvert like myself, it's cool. I love seeing how far I can get (with
my 40m Z-dipole mounted in my single story attic -- i.e. too low, and hiding
inside a building -- I've gone 5150 miles on 10 watts).

But it doesn't offer the challenges (and rewards) as CW, or even SSB phone.

------
tom_mellior
The Cuckoo’s Egg is a great read. For another great hacking story from the
same era, see "An Evening with Berferd: In Which a Cracker is Lured, Endured,
and Studied":
[http://www.cheswick.com/ches/papers/berferd.pdf](http://www.cheswick.com/ches/papers/berferd.pdf)

From the abstract: "On 7 January 1991 a cracker, believing he had discovered
the famous sendmail DEBUG hole in our Internet gatewaymachine, attempted to
obtain a copy of our passwordfile. I sent him one. For several months we led
this cracker on a merry chase in order to trace his location and learn his
techniques."

~~~
lunchables
It's absolutely one of my favorite reads ever. In fact, I think it's about
time to read it again.

------
heipei
I had the immense pleasure of seeing my childhood idol Cliff Stoll on stage at
a conference organised by my company. They had invited Cliff as the keynote
speaker. He brought honest-to-god slides and a projector, his talk ran over
due to popular demand and he was a stark contrast to the otherwise "corporate"
atmosphere.

What impressed me most about Cliff though was the level of interest he
displayed in everything. In what our company did when talking to the execs
before the talk and in everyone who came up to him after the talk. He stayed
in the conference room to take photos with each of the dozens of fans lined up
one by one. Eventually we were kicked out since the next event was about to
start.

15-year-old me would never have dreamed of meeting my childhood idol, but when
I finally met him it was like he just had finished writing the book and walked
onto the stage. Thanks Cliff!

~~~
scottlocklin
I can one up: I actually _worked_ with the guy on a contract. The people we
did the work for were kind of jerks, but Cliff was amazing. Old school mad
scientist. Except he radiates a saint-like benevolence and good-heartedness
which is all too rare these days. Like a cross between the professor on "back
to the future," Yoda, and a Catholic saint.

LBNL should have given him a lab, a quarter million bucks for equipment he
might find interesting and permanent access to the machine shops and library.
The fact that they didn't is ... one of the reasons I no longer work there and
why modern science and its culture is a trash fire.

------
gdubs
The Cuckoo's Egg and Silicon Snake Oil were life changing for me. I was in
middle school, snowed-in in upstate New York, on my computer most of the time.
And the writing tips at the end of Silicon Snake Oil have stuck with me to
this day.

Cuckoo's Egg is a great thriller. Silicon Snake Oil was ahead of its time. The
thing I liked about both is that they showed me what a rich life could be like
beyond computers. And what was this magical place called Berkeley?

Cuckoo's Egg is also something of an anecdote to 'imposter syndrome'. It
showed how someone who was coming in to the field from the outside could trust
their instincts and do something important. As others have said, a lot of us
have come into this field from a wide variety of backgrounds. Stoll's books
showed me how that can actually be an asset.

------
progre
If you're into podcasts there is a biographical interview with Cliff Stoll
here [https://www.numberphile.com/podcast/cliff-
stoll](https://www.numberphile.com/podcast/cliff-stoll)

~~~
nxpnsv
Possibly the best single podcast episode ever. I cried.

------
JshWright
Someday I want to be as excited about something as Cliff Stoll is about
everything...

~~~
kleer001
IMHO the key is removing empty media calories and replace them with load
bearing subjects.

~~~
Andhurati
How do I do this?

~~~
bitwize
Step one might be "stop reading Hackernews so damn much".

------
jrd259
Why call Cliff a "mad" scientist? He's a polymath possessing diverse skills,
some of them esoteric (glassblowing), but there's no evidence that he's even
eccentric, much less "mad". Sure he built a robot, but it doesn't even have
weapons. Seriously, would you have called Feynmann, Heinlein or Minsky mad?
There's this trope that if you are smart and do anything unusual you must also
be "mad". Smarts, curiosity, and hard work are not an illness.

~~~
yathern
I think the "mad" in "mad scientist" makes it form a compound word - that
doesn't suggest the person is clinically insane. To me, I hear "mad scientist"
and I think:

\- Very knowledgeable across a range of studies \- Likes to build homebrew
projects \- Impressive work ethic and devotion to projects \- Does it not for
money or fame, but just because it's what they do

~~~
TremendousJudge
\- Has crazy hair like Cliff Stoll or Albert Einstein in that one picture

------
sohkamyung
For those who want to know more about the Klein Bottle and mathematical side
of Cliff Stoll, check out the videos featuring him on this Numberphile
playlist [1]

[1]
[https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLt5AfwLFPxWJeBhzCJ_JX...](https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLt5AfwLFPxWJeBhzCJ_JXdaIXi_YJl7Bh)

~~~
eindiran
This one is particularly good: every time you think he can't have more glass
props, he pulls out another one.

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k8Rxep2Mkp8](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k8Rxep2Mkp8)

------
philpem
I find Cliff's closing points extremely relatable.

> “I remember when the internet was innocent, when it crossed political
> boundaries without a care, when it was a sandbox for intellectually happy
> people,” Stoll had told me in our first phone call. “Boy, did that bubble
> burst.”

> He never imagined, 30 years ago, that the internet would become a medium for
> dark forces: disinformation, espionage, and war. “I look for the best in
> people. I want to live in a world where computing and technology are used
> for the good of humanity,” Stoll says. “And it breaks my heart.”

Idealism and 'the greater good' are locked in a perpetual battle with human
factors, and human factors always seem to win. :(

~~~
boneitis
Recently stumbled upon this RMS speech transcription[0] for the first time.

I find it quite relevant to your quoted passages and, I suppose, corroborative
of your commentary.

Bit of a long read.

[0] [https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/stallman-
kth.html](https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/stallman-kth.html)

------
dang
[https://news.ycombinator.com/threads?id=CliffStoll](https://news.ycombinator.com/threads?id=CliffStoll)

------
noonespecial
Don't miss Cliffs "robotic crawl space warehouse". Take that Amazon.

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mw54zsON4MI](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mw54zsON4MI)

------
JDiculous
I remember watching his TED talk 11 years ago
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gj8IA6xOpSk](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gj8IA6xOpSk)
and buying a couple Klein bottles afterwards. This brings back memories!

------
brk
I first read this story somewhere, back in the early 90's. It is a great piece
of hacker lore, and a lesson (IMO), to not ignore little "rounding errors", as
they can often be indicative of bigger problems lurking beneath. That is not
to say these issues always need to be fully addressed and resolved, just
properly _understood_.

~~~
CliffStoll
Too often, we're driven by getting the right answer. I care more about
_understanding_ \-- figuring out what the answer means. As well as the
difference between precision and accuracy.

------
bdamm
A friend gave this book to me during my high school years - in 1995. Cliff's
book fundamentally changed my perspective on computers, and at just the right
time, is partially responsible for my career to this very day. It's been an
interesting career for sure, so, thanks Cliff!

------
jgrahamc
I met Cliff Stoll at Kepler's Bookstore in Menlo Park, CA years ago when his
book High-Tech Heretic came out (about computers in the classroom). We had a
great discussion about something and he signed my book "I hear you John!".

And I have no idea what we discussed...

------
trasz
There’s a German movie, titled “23”, which tells the story from the point of
view of the opposite side.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/23_(film)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/23_\(film\))

------
Merrill
>He never imagined, 30 years ago, that the internet would become a medium for
dark forces: disinformation, espionage, and war. “I look for the best in
people. I want to live in a world where computing and technology are used for
the good of humanity,” Stoll says. “And it breaks my heart.”

30 years ago the US phone network was losing about $6 billion / year to toll
fraud, operator fraud, and cellphone fraud. Captain Crunch had been arrested
in '72\.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Draper](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Draper)

------
chrisallick
If you haven't read the book, get on it! it's a really easy read and really
inspiring. Although it's sad how his obsessions cost him.

------
odyssey7
I remember finding Cliff Stoll's Klein bottle website a number of years ago
when I was younger, but of course I didn't remember the name of the person
behind it. The concept prompted a lot of interesting geometry-related
thoughts. It was surprising to see this come back up while reading about
cybersecurity and what sounds like a neat book!

------
janpot
Bought one of his bottles a few years ago. I have it right in front of me as a
desk toy, next to a Theo Jansen strandbeest model. Every time I look at it I'm
reminded of how delightful the whole experience was of obtaining it. I can
only recommend everybody buying one of these.

~~~
dcminter
I too bought one as a gift for a friend and mentioned in the comment form how
much I'd enjoyed The Cuckoo's Egg. The reply was effusive, and the overall
"purchase experience" still leaves me with a warm glow.

------
wglb
As part of the security awareness training I gave to each of the software
engineers during onboarding. I challenged them to see how things have changed
in the years since that happened. The answer is not very much. Except it is
worse.

------
abhgh
I have given away a couple of Klein bottles to collaborators I have really
enjoyed working with, as a token of appreciation. He sends emails that show
him packaging, and a bunch of eccentric paperwork accompanies the bottle,
which are a delight. Visiting him at his lab is on my todo list (his website
mentions "You're welcome to stop by for coffee & chat - please call ahead if
you plan to visit."), I don't stay very far from his place! Maybe I will get a
copy of his book signed too.

------
mathattack
Nothing beats the Cool Awesome Nerd factor of buying a Klein bottle from him.

[https://www.kleinbottle.com/](https://www.kleinbottle.com/)

~~~
zimpenfish
I have a Mobius scarf and Klein Bottle hat from him. Figured the shipping of a
glass one to the UK would be a) expensive and b) likely to end up as glass
dust given how godawful our local carriers are.

~~~
power
I got one shipped to Ireland and it arrived in one beautiful piece. Cliff also
sent on a email documenting the process and I replied with an unboxing photo.
It was worth ordering just for the lovely interaction.

------
mirimir
Yet another site that doesn't load anything for me. Just a bunch of scripts
and photo captions.

So what are these people doing to make their stuff so elusive?

~~~
slater
They're using Javascript, first released in 1994.

~~~
mirimir
Good one, there.

But seriously, I have no problem with over 90% of the sites I visit using this
Firefox instance. But then there's wired.com and imgur.com, for example, which
display just blank pages.

I have no clue what it is. I've made too many changes.

But I'm reasonably confident that it's something evil that they're doing,
rather than something silly that I've done.

~~~
reificator
When I visit Google Play Music in Firefox the interface loads about 80% but
all clicks result in an error message.

I'm fairly sure it comes down to the automatic tracking protection Firefox
touts, but I can't seem to find how to turn it off for one specific site. Or
better yet the specific requests that cause breakage on the specific site.

------
kazinator
Amazing TIL: the famous Berkeley hacker hunter and the Klein bottle guy are
just flipsides of the same Möbius strip.

------
qidydl
I knew Cliff first as my dad's old college buddy, so it's always a little wild
when articles about him show up. He's an actual human being and a good person,
so I hope the scrutiny and craziness of public attention doesn't give him too
much trouble.

------
qu4ku
Just have watched 'The KGB, The Computer, and Me' a few days ago:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hTx9h3Sm29I](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hTx9h3Sm29I)

~~~
chriscyber
Came to the thread to post this. It's a hacker classic. There is also this
German movie, telling the same story from the side of the hacker:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YsYD_lmK-
KE](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YsYD_lmK-KE)

------
Fnoord
[https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0126765/](https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0126765/)

------
ChrisMarshallNY
I remember seeing the 60 Minutes interview with Stoll and his girlfriend when
his book came out.

Pretty crazy duo. I liked it.

~~~
jlgaddis
> _... with Stoll and his girlfriend ..._

Don't tell his wife!

~~~
ChrisMarshallNY
She was still his girlfriend, back then. They were pretty “bohemian.”

I think she is now his ex-wife.

------
HiroshiSan
What a fantastic picture! I recognize Ramanujan, Euler, and Turing but I'm not
sure who the others are.

~~~
saagarjha
I think I spy Emmy Noether and Joseph Fourier.

~~~
CliffStoll
On the wall are some of my friends -- people who have taught me good things.
From the left - Felix Hausdorff (Who did so much for topology, and who took
his life before being deported to a concentration camp) Gosta Mittag-Leffler
(complex analysis) Alvin Turing (Computability) /below, hidden somewhat/ Tesla
on a blue Serbian banknote, Newton, Stefan (of Stefan-Boltzman fame), Feynman/
Sofia Kovalevskaya (PDE's) Cahit Arf (on the Turkish 10 lyre bill -
topologist) Emmy Noether (Rings & Fields) HSM Coxeter (Canadian geometer ... I
met him when I was in High School!) Euler (on the Swiss 10 Franc banknote)
Srinivasa Ramanujan Felix Klein Fourier and I'm resting on a Friden STW
calculator that I've rebuilt.

~~~
CliffStoll
Oh - up top is Bernhard Riemann and August Mobius

~~~
saagarjha
Thanks!

------
jki275
I was loaned _Cuckoo 's Egg_ by my first CS professor back in 1989. Great
book.

------
pvaldes
I'm finding the "mad scientist" cliche more and more offensive each day.

~~~
taborj
Meh, I'd rather own it than waste time being offended by it. To me, this isn't
a label worth getting offended about.

------
29athrowaway
Watch the Nova episode, "The KGB, The Computer, and Me".

------
b3lvedere
Awesome read. I love the Klein bottles!

------
gdy
With all due respect to Cliff Stoll, I'm perplexed by the "Don’t go screwing
with information that belongs to innocent people!" bit.

Seriously, the article is talking about German hackers intruding military
targets:

"the hacker’s intrusions to the Department of Defense’s MILNET systems, an
Alabama army base, the White Sands Missile Range, Navy shipyards, Air Force
bases, NASA’s Jet Propulsion Laboratory, defense contractors, and the CIA"

"Stoll’s hacker-tracking work at Lawrence Berkeley National Labs inspired its
sister institution, Lawrence Livermore National Labs"

This is where nukes are designed.

And after that "Don’t go screwing with information that belongs to innocent
people!", "You have a responsibility to your colleagues like me to behave
ethically", "low-burning outrage", "[the Internet] was a sandbox for
intellectually happy people".

Innocent, ethical, intellectually happy people creating means to murder
hundreds of million people and pesky hackers who have no right to be snooping
around.

~~~
marksweston
> pesky hackers

...working on behalf of the KGB, seeking military advantage for the
totalitarian police state they served. Yes, let's be on their side instead.

~~~
gdy
"As soon as men decide that all means are permitted to fight an evil, then
their good becomes indistinguishable from the evil that they set out to
destroy."

