
Staying with the US Digital Service - Matt_Cutts
https://www.mattcutts.com/blog/join-the-us-digital-service/
======
1888franklin
Howdy Matt - will you build a Muslim registry if Trump orders it or Congress
passes it?

~~~
potatosoup
The registry was already there under Obama:

[https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.theatlantic.com/amp/article...](https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.theatlantic.com/amp/article/511505/?client=safari)

Also, it would be silly to assume that we didn't have a database of "country
from" for immigrants or visitors. "Muslim" is not a country, it's a religion,
so you'd need some serious behavior profiling for that -- probably FB/Google
are ones you should be after. (Disclaimer: am immigrant, am minority.)

~~~
walrus01
CBP/ICE already collects retinal scans and fingerprints of people with visas
from many countries. Plus there's the FBI face recognition database.

~~~
knz
> CBP/ICE already collects retinal scans and fingerprints of people with visas
> from many countries. Plus there's the FBI face recognition database.

Permanent residents too (no retinal scan but digital fingerprints and photo
every time you pass through immigration at an airport).

------
jconley
Just a warning for everyone from California, Colorado, Washington, Oregon,
etc. They do require you to certify for the background screening that you have
not done any federally illegal drugs in the last 12 months, and possibly do
drug tests. Might not want to spend too much time on it if that applies to
you.

[https://www.usds.gov/join#who](https://www.usds.gov/join#who)

~~~
walrus01
further warning, if you apply for a secret or ts clearance (which many, many
IT jobs in the federal government require and particular anything that
interacts with the DoD), you will be put through a polygraph... It's even more
intrusive now and the background check is even more thorough in the post-
snowden era.

~~~
webmaven
_> the background check is even more thorough in the post-snowden era._

Why is that?

I mean, this would be a case of "shutting the stable door after the horse has
bolted" except that Snowden would pretty clearly have passed a more thorough
background check. _His background wasn 't the problem._

The only thing I can think of that might actually have preemptively filtered
him (or those like him) out would be some sort of psych test biased toward
authoritarianism.

~~~
walrus01
because knee jerk reaction, assuming logical reasons for well thought out
responses on the part of the federal government dinosaur apparatus will only
make your head hurt.

~~~
webmaven
Hmm. I guess I thought ramping up the number of polygraph tests and re-
evaluating which systems are accessible by people with various roles,
responsibilities, and clearances would be a _much_ higher priority.

Background checks are obviously a necessary and useful tool, I am just not
sure I understand which dotted lines (regardless of their logic or illogic)
connect "Snowden" to "more background checks" in a knee-jerk reaction.

------
Matt_Cutts
Let me know if folks have any questions, but I left Google on Dec. 31, 2016.

~~~
toomuchtodo
No questions, just a compliment. After going through the USDS interview
process and declining an offer, I have nothing but appreciation for those who
serve there knowing what's involved to be selected, onboarded, and what the
day to day looks like.

Best of luck as your journey there continues.

~~~
Matt_Cutts
I'll pass that feedback on--thank you!

~~~
nowarninglabel
I'll tag on here to compliment the usds.gov/join site. Great job at outlining
everything upfront to make it easy for people to figure out if it's right for
them. Might lift some inspiration from it. And thank you for serving!

------
verst
Congrats Matt. It was a pleasure to meet you at the USDS ice cream social last
fall. Today was my last day at 18F. I'm returning to private sector, for now.

I'm proud of what we accomplished in building cloud.gov. I think 2017 will be
a big year for the platform.

~~~
codelitt
Wow! Just took a look at the pricing page[^1]. This seems like a _very_
expensive service. What makes it cost so much in comparison to what we see in
the private sector? There's some info here[^2], but it's pretty general.

[1]:
[https://cloud.gov/overview/pricing/rates/](https://cloud.gov/overview/pricing/rates/)

[2]: [https://cloud.gov/overview/pricing/pricing-
model/](https://cloud.gov/overview/pricing/pricing-model/)

~~~
wslack
The TL;DR answer is that compliance in the government is expensive (for
example, the gov't can require companies to maintain amended terms of
service[1]). There are many vendors who choose not to work with government for
that reason and its one reason the government ends up paying more for
services.

Edit to add this link to a place in a video explaining more about
compliance.[2]

[1]: [https://www.digitalgov.gov/resources/negotiated-terms-of-
ser...](https://www.digitalgov.gov/resources/negotiated-terms-of-service-
agreements/)

[2]:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UwOG3BrdODo&t=1m30s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UwOG3BrdODo&t=1m30s)

------
lazyasciiart
[https://www.usds.gov/join#who](https://www.usds.gov/join#who) says they are
only accepting US citizens. However
[https://www.usds.gov/join#application](https://www.usds.gov/join#application)
only asks if you are authorized to work in the US, and says 'For some
positions US citizenship is required'. So are there any positions that do not
require US citizenship, or should that application form just ask if you are a
citizen?

~~~
csharpminor
I can't answer on their behalf, but I do know that the security clearance
process generally prohibits non-citizens. You can get a Limited Access
Authorization (LAA) in some cases. Given that USDS frequently works on
sensitive infrastructure, I think there's a strong chance that citizenship is
a requirement.

------
TheAceOfHearts
One of the best things to come out USDS / 18F is their design guidelines [0].
It's very comfortable to read, and completely accessible! I think my only
complaint is that the components are all a bit gigantic. But it's
understandable, since they have to cater to so many people.

Considering the government and tech got me wondering: what software do our
leaders regularly use? What measures are taken to ensure it's as safe? How
much of this information is readily available? Hopefully this won't land me in
an FBI watch-list :).

[0] [https://standards.usa.gov/](https://standards.usa.gov/)

------
Keverw
I wonder how the USDS is different than the 18F? Seems like they both are
doing the same thing, why not just merge them?

~~~
Matt_Cutts
USDS and 18F serve in pretty different roles. USDS often comes in when there's
a crisis or a high presidential priority, because the organization sits in the
office of the President. 18F is located in the General Services Administration
and is especially strong when looking at the medium- to long-term goals of an
organization. I'd also say that 18F thinks more about culture change than many
parts of the USDS.

They also have different funding mechanisms that lead to different operating
models. USDS funding comes out of a budget called ITOR and we can represent a
source of "free" engineers for an agency. 18F operates on a cost-recoverable
model where an agency is paying for help or services.

There are other, smaller differences too. For example, it's typically easier
to work remotely for 18F than for USDS.

From a distance, the organizations both look like "tech in government," but I
think they operate better separately. I have enormous respect for the folks in
18F, and the two orgs have collaborated on things like the US Web Design
Standards: [https://standards.usa.gov/](https://standards.usa.gov/)

~~~
Keverw
Thanks for the explanation. I was just curious since I know I have seen posts
about 18F here on HN before which sounded like very similar work. This is the
first time I heard of USDS and as an outsider to government tech, they both
looked the same to me. But that makes totally sense to me now, sounds like
with the different funding and offices they work on slightly different
projects and problems then but still tech.

Plus I remember at one point Obama was talking about duplicate
agencies/programs and consolidating them. Then Trump talks about "cutting the
fat", but I do see how being separate in this case actually seems like it
helps.

~~~
wslack
* I work at 18F

I think the press articles that sometimes lump it all together can be
frustrating at times and I like Matt's descriptions above. Another important
difference: when USDS attends a meeting it's the "White House" in the room,
whereas 18F sitting in GSA (which does other things like support government
real estate) gives us a different context.

We both, though, benefit immensely from strong civil servants that partner
with us. There's a narrative out there that "silicon valley" people have come
to DC to "rescue" all of the government, when many people in both orgs have
government experience (or come from the non-profit sector). Our work is
impossible without partners throughout government who know a policy space and
are ready to benefit from different tools and processes, and I wish those
folks (or even just the tools and processes such as
[http://www.gao.gov/products/GAO-12-681](http://www.gao.gov/products/GAO-12-681))
got more attention than the "hero narrative."

~~~
Matt_Cutts
I couldn't agree more with this.

------
akmiller
Matt, are you not concerned that the USDS could be removed with the
transitioning of President Trump. If I'm not mistaken it's part of the
executive office so not only could it be undone, but it could be undone
swiftly with the stroke of a pen. Seems like a risky move at this time!

~~~
edraferi
It will be very interesting to see how Trump reacts to USDS and similar
efforts that connect the Federal government with technologists and scientists.
The Republicans seem to prefer that government function poorly (e.g. "starve
the beast") but they DO like the private sector. So when you want to use
private sector best practices to make the government work better, does the
administration like it or hate it?

------
new_hackers
What is the mood like with Trump coming into office? Is USDS going to remain
alive and well?

~~~
thogenhaven
There is a good article about it here: [https://backchannel.com/the-final-
days-of-obamas-tech-surge-...](https://backchannel.com/the-final-days-of-
obamas-tech-surge-864b9bf60d34#.pip8ad4cd)

"I also spoke to a number of former team members. Publicly, almost all of them
expressed optimism that the work would continue: The transition was proceeding
cordially, the efforts to reform government IT were bipartisan, and Congress
would back their efforts, which had already saved money for taxpayers and
delivered services for citizens. But lurking behind every statement was an
existential dread that Donald Trump would either pull the plug on one of the
great achievements of the last eight years, or worse — he might order the best
and brightest to work on projects that violated their moral codes. If those
fears were confirmed, it would mean the end of one of the most inspiring
developments in government in years — and a backwards step for a bureaucracy
that had for too long ignored the nation’s most powerful tools."

~~~
thisnotmyacc
> But lurking behind every statement was an existential dread

That sums up the mood in the media: existential dread.Not real. Not tangible.
Not verifiable. Existential.

I doubt the Donald is going to mess with making the awful process of dealing
with government easier. Existential is non-tangible for a reason I guess.

~~~
throwaway942024
That's not what "existential dread" means.

------
tvanantwerp
Since the election, has there been any dropoff in people staying or applying
to join USDS? I ado agree that now is probably a good time to stick with
things--but I'm sure others view it differently. I'm curious if there are
enough such people to see a difference in staffing.

Edit: Also, as a programmer and DC person, I love the work USDS does and I
hope you guys keep working indefinitely.

------
brandonb
Just wanted to say: thank you for your service!

~~~
Matt_Cutts
Thanks, Brandon. And thank you for your service on healthcare.gov!

------
coleca
If you haven't seen Mikey Dickerson's presentation at last fall's Velocity
Conference it's worth a quick watch:
[https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=LGSAyU2RZDo](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=LGSAyU2RZDo)

Watching that video will make you understand why someone like Matt would feel
the call to service he clearly does. USDS is a true example of everything that
is right about civil service and has nothing to do with partisan politics
despite being part of the Whitehouse.

------
jgalt212
I said this in an earlier thread, but also applies to Matt's (and other
Googlers) work for the USG.

AT&T, through Bell Labs, tried to be indispensable to the US Govt throughout
the Cold War so that it would allow its monopoly to continue to exist. Google
is following the same game plan. The problem with this game plan is that by
Google seeming too cozy with USG it makes it harder for it to operate in
foreign markets. AT&T did not have this problem as foreign markets during the
Cold War were much smaller and more closed.

------
usds_app_throw
As a new grad, the USDS was my top choice but I was constantly stonewalled by
recruiters saying that I wasn't experienced enough.

For the USDS engineers on the thread--does the work really require 5+ years of
work experience? Is there really no place for a passionate and moderately-
experienced junior engineer in the organization? I would quit my job in a
heartbeat if I got an offer.

~~~
Matt_Cutts
It does help to have a few scars, in that many of the problems also have
organizational aspects to them. So it's not just the ability to code; it also
helps to have seen a lot of dysfunction within companies, bureaucracies, etc.

------
mi100hael
Anyone know who the guy in the video giving the speech with his shirt buttoned
all the way up is?

Edit: wow I don't recognize Jobs with a beard.

~~~
grepthisab
Steve Jobs.

~~~
saycheese
>> Steve Jobs: "When you grow up you, tend to get told that the world is the
way it is and your life is just to live your life inside the world, try not to
bash into the walls too much, try to have a nice family, have fun, save a
little money. That’s a very limited life. Life can be much broader, once you
discover one simple fact, and that is that everything around you that you call
life was made up by people that were no smarter than you. And you can change
it, you can influence it, you can build your own things that other people can
use. And the minute that you understand that you can poke life and actually
something will, you know if you push in, something will pop out the other
side, that you can change it, you can mold it. That’s maybe the most important
thing. It’s to shake off this erroneous notion that life is there and you’re
just gonna live in it, versus embrace it, change it, improve it, make your
mark upon it. I think that’s very important and however you learn that, once
you learn it, you’ll want to change life and make it better, cause it’s kind
of messed up, in a lot of ways. Once you learn that, you’ll never be the same
again.”

Unedited version:
[https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=0Ydp6bR5HXw](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=0Ydp6bR5HXw)

------
therealmarv
Very inspiring to learn about US Digital Service. I wished somehow Germany
would have something similar.

~~~
hugs
USDS was modeled after a similar initiative in the UK (the Government Digital
Service). Maybe Germany could be next? Or maybe an EU-wide digital service?

------
saycheese
>> "I'm the head of the webspam team at Google."

Just a heads up that the above is on your HN profile:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/user?id=Matt_Cutts](https://news.ycombinator.com/user?id=Matt_Cutts)

~~~
Matt_Cutts
I updated my profile--thanks! It's a bit daunting to think about all the
places where I'll need to update my profile/bio. :)

------
akytt
Fellow public servant and former Skyper here. I can fully see where you are
coming from. Keep up the good work, a lots of folks are looking up to what the
USDS is doing!

~~~
Matt_Cutts
Thanks for the good wishes!

------
bogomipz
Can explain briefly how 18F relates to USDS? I guess I thought that 18F was
the group behind healthcare.gov in the US and clearly I have that wrong.
Thanks.

~~~
wslack
Check this part of the thread:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13433319](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13433319)

Neither 18F or USDS existed when healthcare.gov launched.

------
saycheese
Now that you are officially no longer with Google, is there anything that you
have put off talking about that you now feel is the right time to do so?

~~~
Matt_Cutts
Google Reader, man. Google Reader.

~~~
saycheese
Agree, RIP RSS:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13440672](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13440672)

------
pm24601
Matt - Are you going to resist the Trump administration OR are you going to
enable it?

Sounds like you think you can some how make bad less bad.

------
eikenberry
Why do they not have a remote work option?

~~~
spoon16
I live outside of Seattle. But nearly all of the work I do with USDS requires
me to be physically present. So I travel a lot (4/5 days a week). You aren't
going to find a badly broken technology project in the Federal Government that
is able to leverage remote people effectively.

~~~
eikenberry
I'm a developer and devops guy. If I have to be physically present for
anything, something is very wrong.

~~~
zacharycohn
On many of these projects, something is very very wrong. That's why USDS/18F
are there. If everything is going peachy, we could be spending our time
better, elsewhere.

*18f employee

------
pbarnes_1
Not that I'd work for a fascist collaborator but...

How is the USDS getting around the hiring freeze?

------
pryelluw
What's the interview process like?

What technologies are common?

~~~
redtapemachete
Interview process =

Apply on usds.gov -> Your resume is scored -> Technical interview (akin to
Goog/twitter/amazon) -> EQ interview (can you handle the super weird work and
environment?) -> technical interview (similar to first to follow up on any
missing info) -> Interview feedback is reviewed by hiring panel to make sure
folks are minimally qualified -> Agency team leads compete to make offers to
qualified candidates -> candidates accept one of the offer(s). You can be
dropped at any step and not proceed. Everyone on staff hates turning people
down, because people only apply if they care deeply about helping others. We
are forever grateful for folks who throw their hat in the ring.

Technologies run from COBOL (not kidding) to node. At 18F you will get to work
exclusively in a modern stack, at USDS we're looking for people who are
willing and able to scrub in to fix X, no matter what tech is in the way. The
work is always oriented around solving a problem for humans, regardless of the
stack.

If the greatest python dev ever applied, but couldn't creatively solve
problems for a system that was built in powerbuilder 5.0 (lol/sob), we
couldn't use her.

*USDS employee

~~~
pryelluw
Thanks for the detailed response.

------
throwaway9865
Hi Looking at the salary and that I'm in Baltimore making $135k as Sr. UI/UXer
(designing/coding sites apps for Govt agencies) I'm not sure the salary range
of up to $163k would be worth it. That's probably not for UI/UXers or is it?

My rent here in Baltimore with utilities is 2k ... if I moved to D.C. A lot of
the additional salary would be absorbed by the doubling or tripling my cost of
rent.

Thus I wonder why remote positions and or a mix of remote and on site one day
a week is not being offered?

~~~
dkhenry
I understand your feeling, and even if you could get to the 163k pay rate
(which you might not) you would be looking at a different lifestyle. Its
important to go into the process knowing that a Job at the USDS isn't going to
make the most financial sense, many people have turned down packages many
multiples of 163k for the opportunity to make a difference on a scale that
people would only dream about. If your not excited about the impact I think
you would wash out after only a few weeks.

~~~
shostack
Does that fact tend to "filter out" those who are not young and unencumbered
by financial obligations like mortgages and families or those who are well
off?

~~~
dkhenry
I have a wife, three young children, and a mortgage, and it didn't filter me
out. The money isn't the biggest challenge, it is tough work and it takes a
long time to reach the pay off. The daily grind up against the machine that is
government will wear you down faster then anything else.

------
general_ai
Great to see there are actual adults ready to take a pay cut and serve the
country in spite of maybe not getting the president they like. Far too many
people have fallen victim to feigned outrage and pearl clutching, and excluded
themselves from the conversation completely. That's not how you effect change,
folks. _This_ is how you do it. You go out there and put in the hard work.

~~~
eragoins
Just wondering if you would say the same of people protesting in Hong Kong,
Russia, or Saudi Arabia. Should they also "act like adults" and "go out there
and put in the hard work?"

Depending on a person's life experiences, it causes them to draw the line at
different places. So I don't think it's fair to say those people display
"feigned outrage and pearl clutching," while _this_ specific way is the adult
way.

~~~
general_ai
Speaking of Russia (which is the only one of those countries/localities that I
can speak for, since I grew up there), I will say that Putin is inarguably the
best thing that happened to Russia in the past 100 years.

~~~
khuey
Not very many good things have happened to Russia in the last 100 years.

~~~
general_ai
That's exactly right. And if someone is going to protest Putin, may I suggest
that they peruse the following graph:
[https://www.google.com/search?q=russia+per+capita+gdp+ppp&oq...](https://www.google.com/search?q=russia+per+capita+gdp+ppp&oq=russia+per+capita+&aqs=chrome.4.0j69i57j0l4.6467j0j1&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8).
That's Putin.

~~~
tobltobs
No, that's the price of oil. Anyway, to use GDP as the prove for how good a
president is, is nonsense anyway. Eg.:
[https://www.google.com/search?num=50&q=venezuela+per+capita+...](https://www.google.com/search?num=50&q=venezuela+per+capita+gdp+ppp&oq=venezuela+per+capita+gdp+ppp).

~~~
general_ai
Some of it is price of oil, sure. But if you're going to compare to Venezuela,
you should be comparing PPP GDP, and not just GDP at exchange rate, which is
kinda meaningless. Scroll down to "GDP at parity" here:
[https://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=venezuela+russia+per+c...](https://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=venezuela+russia+per+capita+gdp+ppp+2000-2016).
As you can see, price of oil alone doesn't guarantee that the economy will get
any better. And Russian economy did get dramatically better under Putin. I go
back every 3-4 years, and the country is barely recognizable now compared to
how things were 15 years ago. I could now actually imagine living and working
there.

~~~
nl
[https://www.google.com.au/search?q=poland+per+capita+gdp+ppp...](https://www.google.com.au/search?q=poland+per+capita+gdp+ppp&oq=russia+per+capita+gdp)

Look at that. Russia and Poland are almost exactly the same. Czech Republic
looks somewhat better, Romania somewhat worse but all are similar shape.

I guess Putin is a pretty amazing president! Or maybe there is something else
going on...

------
edblarney
I applaud your commitment to civic duty.

I wish more of the big tech players would encourage leaves of absence to
partake in these important tasks.

~~~
redtapemachete
Microsoft has a special civic leave program for this work, and work like it!

~~~
Matt_Cutts
That's pretty cool. I would love to see Google make this option easier for
people who want to help with improving civic tech at the local, state, or
federal level.

------
codeonfire
Trump is going to shut this down unfortunately. I don't think people have
really come to terms with what is going to change. If there is anything
digital that needs done, some republican backed defense contractor is going to
do it for 100x the price.

~~~
thisnotmyacc
This sort of scare mongering is just plain weird.

~~~
codeonfire
This isn't scare mongering. Just my opinion about how things are going to go
from someone who lived through Reagan and both Bushes. The main theme of right
wing parties is to reduce government, but their stated goal of reducing taxes
always turns out to be a crock of shit. Their motivation is to get tax dollars
(and borrowed dollars) flowing to right wing organizations. Remember faith
based initiatives? They had tax money flowing to churches.

------
iblaine
> Working for the government doesn’t pay as well as a big company in Silicon
> Valley. We don’t get any free lunches. Many days are incredibly frustrating.
> All I can tell you is that the work is deeply important and inspiring, and
> you have a chance to work on things that genuinely make peoples’ lives
> better.

Pretty easy thing to say when you already have millions in your bank account.

~~~
tobltobs
Without millions in in your bank account you wont be starving working for the
USDS either.

~~~
ganley
Starving, no. But making a lot less than you could make elsewhere.

