
I Fell Victim to a $1,500 Used Camera Lens Scam on Amazon - QUFB
https://petapixel.com/2017/08/11/fell-victim-1500-used-camera-lens-scam-amazon/
======
dingaling
Recap as I understand it, since the blog post isn't

0\. Buyer purchased item from third-party seller on Amazon

1\. Seller picked a name and address in buyer's town, from an obituary, and
sent parcel containing two baking mats thereto ( instead of camera lens )

2\. Occupant of that address signed for it believing it to be for the deceased
relative

3\. USPS updated status to 'delivered' with signature and address recorded

4\. However the proof of delivery shows the address from (1) and not the
buyer's address

5\. Buyer repeatedly appealed on the basis of (4) but Amazon only check that
the parcel was signed-for IN THE SAME TOWN. Therefore requests for refunds or
further action were denied.

Very clever seller, knows the system well. I wonder how many items he had to
sell before striking it rich with a $1500 "lens".

~~~
jjoonathan
I got hit with the same-zip-code scam for a $6000 VNA on eaby and the response
was completely different. Customer service immediately shuffled me off to a
special claims department that investigated and got my money back within about
a week.

At no point did I encounter anything resembling the Kafkaesque web of
strategic incompetence that I half expected. They followed up every step of
the way with courtesy and professionalism even though the seller had woven a
substantially more convincing lie than in OP's case -- they had a many year
history of selling equipment and radio astronomy books along with two previous
successful VNA sales. Evidently it was an account hijack. In this price
bracket, even a solid account history isn't a guarantee.

I no longer resent the 10% cut eBay takes. They saved my bacon on this one. It
sounds like Amazon's team could learn a thing or two from eBay.

~~~
snowwrestler
I have shifted all my budget and used buying from Amazon Marketplace to eBay.

At this point it seems like there are new stories about Amazon Marketplace
scams almost daily. Does anyone think Marketplace is a priority for Amazon
leadership these days? Does Bezos even know it is still operating? It's not
getting the A team, obviously.

Meanwhile connecting sellers and buyers is _all_ eBay does. They don't make
devices, produce TV shows, run cloud services, etc. etc. Of course their
support is good. It has to be.

~~~
stryk
If you're _buying_ eBay is great. If you're the seller however, it's an
entirely different story. eBay heavily, heavily, _heavily_ favors the buyer in
almost all disputes -- so much so that at times it seems as if it's automatic
to the buyer's favor. I guess that's how they get people to spend money on the
platform, and of course take their cut of the transaction.

There are tons and tons of seller horror stories, especially with buyers from
Asian countries. They will buy an iPhone or something, pay for it, then
request a return/refund from the seller but they send back a box of scrap.
Even if you don't manually refund their money, they will dispute it, and eBay
just sees the return tracking # as 'delivered' and gives them their money
back. It really doesn't matter how much you protest, eBay pretty much always
sides with the buyer.

~~~
viraptor
But what's the solution here? Without an escrow service which verifies the
contents both ways, the best they can do is arbitrarily choose the winner.

~~~
pvaldes
What we need is maybe a species of md5 for mail packages

A formulae that mix weight + dimensions + sender data + receiver data +
followed route + category of contents. In several parts. Some parts (buyers
adress, weight, category, etc...) can be verified for buyer, other for seller.
The total formula is available only for the postman and would be easily
verifiable.

When the package is sent, a mobile app sends the buyer a message with the
buyer part that is checked against the data entered by the buyer in his/her
own telephone. The buyer can quickly compare both md5 in the phone and must
answer to the postman approving the message in order to the package being
accepted in the post.

All returned packages have to be put in a special post yellow envelope
available only in the post and checked against the maild5 using the weight and
measures of the original (plus-minus a reasonable confidence interval). A
machine calculates the statistic probability of having a different content and
if under some p-value the postman will not accept the returned package.

~~~
jaclaz
>What we need is maybe a species of md5 for mail packages

Or maybe just more honest people?

~~~
exergy
And where do you propose we find more such "honest people"?

~~~
jaclaz
No ideas, most probably it will be many years in the making, you have to start
with children ...

It was just an alternative (jokingly) to the idea of the "MD5 for mail
packages".

The actual issue is not with the Postal Service or the delivery, it is with
Amazon checks on it.

The package was sent to address B instead of address A, it was delivered by
the post/courier to address B, and properly signed for by a valid recipient at
address B.

It is the Amazon checks that failed to detect that the order was intended for
address A and that having it delivered to address B does not represent a
fulfillment of the order.

There is however IMHO no need of a complex verification algorithm, and a
statistic p-value calculation triggering this or that action.

~~~
pvaldes
> It is the Amazon checks that failed to detect that the order was intended
> for address A and that having it delivered to address B does not represent a
> fulfillment of the order

Of course. But maybe this should be automatized and solved in advance instead
to allow it and solve (or let fall the customer) later, at least for most
valuable items

~~~
jaclaz
Well whilst a directive "check that the address is exact" to the people
providing assistance for issues at Amazon would be fine and cost very little,
revolutionize the whole way packets are sent, courier/postal service
procedures, etc. to have the "MD5 for packets" seems too much.

I mean, it's not like the number of this kind of frauds is that large,
probably somewhere there is an Amazon report stating that they have a
fulfillment rate with full satisfaction of customers of 99,9999%, the whole
issue (not only Amazon's of course, most "remote" or "call center based"
assistance is terrible) is about how poorly this (minimal) 0,0001%is managed.

If the numbers are so small, I believe these large firms could well put in
charge of these cases someone with some more capabilities than the "standard"
call center guy/gal just reading a script and incapable of solving (or not
allowed to solve) these cases.

------
mikeash
I'm wondering more and more why Amazon hosts third-party sellers at all.

They dilute the Amazon brand to a tremendous degree. It used to be that buying
from Amazon meant a certain level of quality and service. Now there are really
two Amazons: the old one, and a new one that's basically a shitty version of
eBay.

I have to go out of my way to avoid these crappy third-party sellers when I'm
searching for stuff on Amazon. It's not a nice experience to go searching for
a product and have to step through a minefield of "cheap" items that take two
months to arrive, or have outrageous shipping fees, or are outright scams.

It is really worth it for Amazon to have them? I struggle to see how.

~~~
noncoml
This 100 times.

I never buy from third-party sellers in Amazon, but I am having such a hard
time explaining to friends and family how to do the same. They keep buying
from third-party sellers and keep wondering how it is not "Amazon".

I wish there was an option to set it once and never see third-party seller
items again.

~~~
balls187
> I never buy from third-party sellers in Amazon, but I am having such a hard
> time explaining to friends and family how to do the same. They keep buying
> from third-party sellers and keep wondering how it is not "Amazon".

3rd party sellers are usually fine.

There are things I check for:

1\. A "critical" mass of 4-5 star reviews

2\. Prime Shipping

3\. History of selling the types of items I want to buy.

If I am going to buy from someone who is a one-off seller, I'll do so locally
via Craigslist, or OfferUp.

~~~
Dove
I feel pretty comfortable if the seller's name is the manufacturer, and their
inventory is full of stuff they manufacture, with a long history of positive
feedback.

I get scared off by seller names that sound like alphabet soup, small numbers
of sales and reviews (for a $5 item I'll chance it, though), and recent
reviews suddenly changing for the negative.

And I'm really skittish about clothing, unless I know the brand. Too many
times, I've gotten what was listed, technically, and it really isn't what I
was thinking. T-shirts that look glorious but are really crappy iron-ons,
shirts that look great but are really, really thin... that sort of thing. I
don't want to go to a store, but I order brands I like and trust directly from
them instead.

------
rgbrenner
filing the chargeback is a good idea... but also, the sender made a critical
mistake sending it usps.. that makes it mail fraud. Talk to the US Postal
Inspection Service, it's a branch of law enforcement, and I'm sure they would
be very interested with all of the evidence youve collected. They can cross
state lines and arrest the sender.

[https://postalinspectors.uspis.gov/](https://postalinspectors.uspis.gov/)

~~~
bradleyjg
I'm a little more skeptical of the claim that crossing the post office is a
big mistake after nothing came of this case: [http://www.postal-
reporter.com/blog/usps-oig-investigating-a...](http://www.postal-
reporter.com/blog/usps-oig-investigating-arrest-of-on-duty-letter-carrier-for-
possible-federal-violations/)

The comment sections at the time were full of people talking about how it was
a federal crime and the cops would be in deep trouble but the postal inspector
seems to have been a paper tiger.

~~~
sombremesa
That's not remotely close to being the same thing. There isn't a grey area
when it comes to fraud (if there is enough evidence), whereas there is plenty
of grey area when it comes to making arrests in the field, which may involve
some amount of human error and judgement and therefore has leeway.

------
ransom1538
Why do people do mail fraud?

While mail fraud crimes often involve the use of the United States Postal
Service, or USPS, you can also commit the crime when you use any interstate
carrier, such as FedEx, UPS, or other delivery services. Mail fraud is super
easy to prove [prints on box, cameras at fedex offices, credit cards used for
materials, amazon accounts, logged ips, bank accounts involved, federal
authority] and carries ridiculous sentencing: 20 years. THIS is a bad plan for
$1500. Most likely this person DID THIS MORE THAN ONCE so they could face like
10 counts - it is 20 years _per count_. Not to mention people doing the
investigation are federal officers - they are on point. With 2nd murder you at
least get parole and probably wont do 20 years or charged with multiple
counts. mail fraud = bad times.

[http://www.criminaldefenselawyer.com/crime-
penalties/federal...](http://www.criminaldefenselawyer.com/crime-
penalties/federal/Federal-mail-fraud.htm)

~~~
giarc
It's probably hard to track the seller. They can use a fake email, illegally
obtained credit card to sign up, PO box or just some random address, drop off
packages to FedEx drop boxes or just drop ship an item. They may never even
touch the packages.

~~~
ransom1538
Uh. No. If I were a federal officer I would just contact amazon and find out
where the money went. Paypal or Bank account - game over. Contact whatever
bank he picks it up from get security camera details, address info, on and on.
I would also grab all the ips, entered in info and the prints from the box. I
bet he would be in my office by lunch. Plea dealed to 5 years by monday.

~~~
inetknght
Put your money where your mouth is. Go provide your legal services to
article's author.

I expect to see an article on Monday, from you, which bemoans exactly how
_easy_ it is to track thieves like this. Show us the face of the accused, too.

~~~
ransom1538
So become a federal officer by monday? I need an extension.

~~~
inetknght
It sounded to me like you already had all of this figured out. Why do you
suddenly need to be a federal officer?

~~~
thedufer
> I would just contact amazon and find out where the money went

I like to think that Amazon won't give its users bank details to random
people. A federal officer could force them give it up.

~~~
Simon_says
Maybe I'm Pollyannaish, but I'd hope Amazon would not give bank details to a
federal office and instead hold out for a subpoena or search warrant or court
order.

~~~
ransom1538
I bet the feds even have an api.

------
toast0
It won't get your money back, but it is worthwhile to file a fraud complaint
with the USPS as well. Mail fraud for $1500 is a big deal to sweep under the
rug with a charge back.

~~~
DaiPlusPlus
I don't see why he wouldn't get a credit-card chargeback authorized - he has
clear evidence of fraud on the party of the seller, and evidence of the
middle-man's (Amazon's) unwillingness to investigate further. As Amazon is
accepting the credit-card payment they will eat the chargeback - if they do
ever dispute this then elevate it to a small-claims court case and the judge
will easily side with the customer.

~~~
simcop2387
One potential problem with that is that Amazon can retaliate by closing the
users's account if they didn't agree with the charge-back even if they're
unsuccessful at fighting it. That can be really difficult to deal with if
you're also using AWS for hosting or other things.

~~~
ryandrake
Whenever I see comments about how "Company XYZ deleted my account after I
issued a charge-back!" I ask: Why would one want to continue doing business
with a company that made you issue a charge-back? Charge-back is pretty much
the nuclear option of last resort when you have exhausted all avenues of
redress. You're basically doing it to get your money back and "salt the earth"
as you leave. I've done a few charge-backs in my life, and not once, ever,
under any circumstances would want to do business with those companies again.

~~~
KGIII
I frequently see people suggest a chargeback as the first option. I have seen
people suggest it instead of even trying for an RMA. I have seen it suggested
for delayed delivery.

I have no idea about the frequency, but I have reason to suspect some are
quite frivolous.

Like you, I believe it should be the last option. I'm just not sure that we
are the majority.

------
_Codemonkeyism
The only way I've got problems solved with Amazon is going to the police and
let them sort it out. Worked every time.

Amazon was in now way responsive or helpful before I've got the police
involved.

~~~
tnorthcutt
What did that process look like for you? Do you just call up your local non-
emergency number and and tell them Amazon cheated you?

~~~
mi100hael
Not OP, but pretty much. Works much better if you can investigate and assemble
most of the evidence yourself so all they have to do is make an arrest.

~~~
wfunction
Does it bother them enough to get other police departments involved? I imagine
no one they can arrest is within their jurisdiction...

~~~
mi100hael
Usually they will forward the case on to the relevant department as long as
you stay involved and apply pressure. There's nothing stopping you from
personally contacting the relevant department, either.

------
shiftpgdn
This is the poison in Amazon's well. The average layman has very little grasp
of sold & shipped by amazon vs amazon marketplace. Amazon needs to tighten the
clamps on all of these awful third party sellers before they become a casualty
like ebay.

Anecdotally my father purchased a projector recently and the seller tried the
"I can't ship it unless you make payment on my offsite merchant page because
Amazon is holding me hostage" scam. My father remarkably recognized this as
fraud and reported it to Amazon. He said they were less than helpful in
getting a refund to his credit card so he could go make a purchase from a
legitimate merchant. They made him wait out the full 30 days it could have
possibly taken to ship before they were willing to work with him.

------
davidu
It seems like the Amazon reps weren't paying attention to the detail, or the
seller was also supplying fraudulent evidence of delivery.

This blog post will likely get it resolved for the buyer, though it shouldn't
have to be this way.

~~~
ajross
I'm more sympathetic to Amazon here than most. Scams are hard to detect. They
set up a shipping confirmation process that's worked fine for them for almost
two decades now. It has a hole (it only checks the town and has no closed loop
to verify that the shipper shipped to the right address in that town), but
none of the existing employees actually know that it has a hole. They get a
report about a missing shipment, check their process, and it says it was
received. Case closed.

This is like trying to report a web site vulnerability to a help desk
employee. It doesn't work. You have to escalate until you find someone who
understands the root issue, and escalation is messy (and involves blog posts
like these).

~~~
mikeash
The author appealed, stating that the delivery address was incorrect. Amazon's
rejected the appeal on the basis that the tracking information "shows that
someone at your address signed for the package." That's not a mysterious hole
that low-level employees are unaware of, that's just inattention on the part
of whoever was handling the appeal.

~~~
ajross
The point was more that "mysterious hole" and "innatention" are mostly the
same thing. My words were "scams are hard to detect" and I stand by them. The
people you want to be more attentive make hourly wages and probably see
_thousands_ of these appeals every week, statistically none of which are
creative scams worthy of arguing about on HN.

You're asking too much. Those employees don't exist. You have to get over
their heads to people who design the processes, and that sometimes requires
writing blog posts and making noise in public.

~~~
mikeash
I don't get how this shows that "scams are hard to detect." This scam was
_trivial_ to detect. When the seller's supposed proof of delivery shows a
different address, then it's not actually proof of delivery. All it would have
taken to detect this was looking at the tracking info and looking at the
order's shipping address and observing that they weren't the same.

Yes, obviously something is terribly wrong at Amazon which meant that this
simple comparison never happened, but I don't see why we should expect this,
or why we should be sympathetic to Amazon about it.

~~~
ajross
> This scam was _trivial_ to detect.

No, it's trivial to _understand_. It's simply an objective truth that it's
hard to detect, given that you and I are hearing about it for the first time
in August of the year 2017, when it exploits a USPS tracking data that
probably hasn't changed much in 15 years or more. If it's so trivial why
didn't you figure it out before? Why haven't Amazon and the post office closed
the hole? Why haven't more people been scammed?

~~~
mikeash
What do you mean, why hasn't the post office closed the hole? Are you or I
misunderstanding what happened here? The post office had no problems here.

And what do you mean, "why didn't you figure it out before?" Why would I have
figured anything out about this...?

Why haven't more people been scammed? How do you know they haven't?

------
amorphid
Amazon seriously pisses me off these days.

Here's an example:

\- search Amazon.com for "1 tb usb flash drive"

\- the first hit (for me) is a fraudulent drive for $26.99 USD [1]

\- there's no mechanism that I can find to report the drive as fraudulent,
suspicious, or spam

As far as I'm concerned, Amazon is the new Best Buy. I go there to find
something I want, and then buy it somewhere else (NewEgg!)

[1] [https://www.amazon.com/Flash-Drive-Memory-Stick-
Storage/dp/B...](https://www.amazon.com/Flash-Drive-Memory-Stick-
Storage/dp/B01KOFOLLO)

------
deft
These amazon emails literally look like automatic mails with a small custom
message on top. He stated multiple times that what they said was WRONG yet no
one bothered to listen to that part. If I was the author or if this ever
happens to me, I'll go directly to disputing the charge.

~~~
ceejayoz
As the "owner" of thousands of dollars worth of Kindle books, I'm terrified of
disputing an Amazon charge.

~~~
kuschku
If you are in the EU, you don't have to worry - you are the owner. If Amazon
bans you from accessing your Kindle books, they're committing a crime.

In a recent court case
[https://openjur.de/u/879923.html](https://openjur.de/u/879923.html) this
exact topic was discussed in the EU. If your account gets banned, you might
want to take a lawyer and cite this case - OLG Köln Az 6 U 90/15.

------
wolfd
I had something similar happen about a year ago and it was a really bad time.
I purchased some hard drives from a third-party seller (claimed as new, seemed
reasonable in price, but huge mistake in hindsight, I know), and they arrived
fine. The problem was, the hard drives were not what I ordered, and were
almost certainly used (scratched up a lot).

I requested a return, and had the seller provide me a shipping label, I sent
them back, and never got my money back. The tracking showed that the package
was delivered, but because the seller had provided me a label that didn't
require a signature, Amazon said they wouldn't give me my money back, as the
seller said they hadn't received the item.

At this point, I left the seller a review saying what had happened to me, and
a few days later, I visited the seller's page, and noticed that my review was
gone.

Not only does Amazon provide really shoddy support for people that have been
scammed, they actually help protect the scammers in a way, by allowing sellers
to remove a couple bad reviews from their page every month.

~~~
fnj
Didn't you bother to run SMART and see what the power-on time was? Just for
curiosity if nothing else.

------
poke111
I don't get why he kept hammering on them for the fact that it was delivered
to the wrong address. The bigger problem here, and a better basis for a
refund, is the fact that they sent the wrong item. If they sent the wrong item
to the correct address it should be eligible, right?

~~~
frandroid
Amazon probably has a process for "wrong item at right address", but since
this is "wrong item at wrong address", they don't have a process for it.
That's why this seller did this; they probably made a mistake once and
discovered the loophole, and now they're driving a truck through it.

------
vgprice
I don't even buy anything that is not sold via Prime. I assume anything non-
prime is of the lowest possible quality or a scam. For some reason I feel
comfortable with prime thinking that the items have had some sort of quality
approval. (at least getting my item as described and expected.)

~~~
Stratoscope
Prime doesn't mean it's sold by Amazon. It can be a third party seller using
Fulled by Amazon services. And in that case, the item may not even come from
the specific seller you're buying from, because of inventory commingling -
they put all of the sellers' inventories into one big bin and send you any of
them.

What you may be looking for is "Ships from and sold by Amazon.com". But there
have been reports that even those products may be commingled with third-party
inventory. (I don't have any personal knowledge on that one way or the other.)

~~~
djrogers
> the item may not even come from the specific seller you're buying from,
> because of inventory commingling - they put all of the sellers' inventories
> into one big bin and send you any of them.

Yeah, but in that case you're at least very likely to be getting the _item_
you ordered. I've got the same policy for ordering stuff from Amazon - if it's
prime and does from their warehouse I'll trust it. Haven't been burned yet,
and the occasional mistake is always cleared up, usually with a 1 month credit
to my prime subscription.

~~~
mark-r
The biggest issue in that case is fake merchandise. Fakes can get shipped from
the warehouse just as easily as the real thing.

------
iamleppert
It's a prime example of what happens when you deal with a large company with
reps who are not empowered to think for themselves, and often times are
incapable of doing anything other than following a very rigid process, and
have extreme apathy.

I had a similar experience with NewEgg. In these cases it is sometimes helpful
to use LinkedIn and contact people high-up in the company (Directors and Sr.
Managers). Send them an inMail, it goes directly to their personal e-mail in
many cases.

In several instances, contact like this via LinkedIn has helped me. Other than
that, don't waste your time and just file a charge-back.

------
awinder
I feel like either amazon, or the market, is missing an opportunity when I
read stuff like this. Amazon could be:

1\. Gathering intelligence about the person making the claim from public
sources (twitter, LinkedIn, blogs, etc.) 2\. Mashing that against past
purchase history (inside amazon or through browser fingerprinting across a
wider pool, though they are amazon and should be pretty wide on their own) 3\.
Ferreting out when high-trust customers are making claims against more shaky
merchants

Claims like this should be the backbone of a fraud management platform. They
can take high-quality customers getting screwed over and not only rectify the
problem but also spare their other buyers from the embarrassment & fraud

------
maxk42
In 2016 I made a couple hundred (yes hundred) purchases on Amazon. Of those,
more than a dozen failed to ever arrive. All of the ones that failed were from
third-party sellers.

Amazon Customer Service is _very_ willing to work with you if you call
directly. (I've also had a $1500 item fail to arrive.) I wouldn't trust their
email support though.

Long story short: Pick up the phone.

~~~
k3oni
Read first, comment later! He called initially and then decided to start
emailing so he can add he's own extra details to the emails and have a paper
trail.

------
martin-adams
How would this have played out if it was sent to the correct address, signed
for but just had baking mats in there instead of the Lens? Would Amazon side
with the seller still?

If not, why didn't the buyer just claim the items in the package was not as
described?

------
losteverything
It was not signed for.

There are many dispositions once usps presses delivered. One is "to an
individual at address" that is what i interpret - not signed.

Some other dispositions: at or by box, other or garage, office, (there are
many more)

So the usps carrier pressed 4 - individual at address. He she handed it to
someone.

Also, the exact gps coordinate of the initial scan is recorded. So the carrier
scans the amazon box... That time&location is address knowing. In fact, the
usps can turn on a feature that tells the carrier "you are more than 200(some
distance) away from the address" this is used primarily when sunday newbies
are delivering.

It sounds like amazon does not receive all the data collected from the
carriers handheld. Also, there can be multiple dispositions for a parcel. Like
"damaged" and delivered.

------
ada1981
So glad that Jeff's assistant isn't even able to read an email. This sucks
man. Appreciate you taking the time to document it and share it.

~~~
morley
I'm guessing too many people know about the "email jeff@amazon.com" hack, and
that they now forward everything from there to customer service.

~~~
yahna
Time to start mailing s-team members instead

------
Havoc
1500 bucks purchase 2nd hand from a seller with 1 review?

10/10 bravery

~~~
giarc
I would say the description makes it appear to be an actual photographer,
although that's very easily duplicated from somewhere else. Also, Amazon is
usually very good about protecting buyers from scams.

~~~
Havoc
>Also, Amazon is usually very good about protecting buyers from scams.

Retrospectively...sometimes.

Don't get me wrong I like them (average like a package every 48 hrs) but I
have fairly limited confidence in their ability to protect people. Especially
with the inventory co-mingling fiasco.

------
pdq
The correct solution to this is a 3rd party escrow service for these expensive
items prone to fraud.

Amazon could physically validate the lens with pictures/weight, and verify
they shipped it directly. This blocks fraud by both the customer and the
seller/shipper.

~~~
cr0sh
Exactly this.

If I'm buying something off of Ebay from a private seller (particularly used
gear and such) that is going to cost more than I feel I can possibly
comfortably lose ($200.00 is the upper end there), then I ask the seller first
(before doing a buy-it-now or bidding) if they'll do escrow (usually via
escrow.com, since that used to be an ebay thing).

If they won't, I don't bid or buy - because it is likely a scam of some sort.
Usually, I explain that the protection is both for seller and buyer, and that
I will pay all fees involved (so they aren't out anything). If they still
balk, then forget it. Not worth it, no way.

I've never used Amazon Marketplace to buy used goods or anything like that
(everything I buy from Amazon is prime stuff; rarely do I do third-party
seller unless its from a place that has a real website too - and even then I
exercise caution).

For large cash transactions via Craigslist? Take a friend with a gun, in case
things don't go the way they should. My last purchase from CL was a car, and I
swear I thought at one point I was going to be rolled for cash I didn't have
with me. It was in the vehicle my friend was driving; I was riding with the
owner in the vehicle being sold - we were trying to find a place to transfer
the title - I know that doesn't sound like it should be difficult, but the
story is much more complex. In the end everything went fine, the guy got the
cash, I got the car, and we parted amicably.

------
caffodian
a similar scam has been going on for a while, with at least video games, board
games, and bike gear, from what I've seen on Amazon Canada.

Third party sellers with a "real" looking name will list an item at a
ridiculous discount off retail. If you buy it, you get a Chinese international
tracking number. This takes forever to "arrive" and it turns out Amazon only
really cares that the tracking number shows to Canada. I'm not sure what is
actually in the package, since it's not possible to figure out more than just
the city it went to.

Eventually, Amazon will refund you, but it's a bit annoying. It's pretty easy
to spot once you get bit the first time, but you'll usually see the third
party seller spike to several hundred bad reviews before the entire situation
gets resolved.

This seems like Amazon CSR just failed to read the writer's complaints
correctly. It should eventually get fixed, because it often does get fixed,
even for hundreds of customers at a time.

~~~
jonathonf
This happens with books too, though in these cases it can be more difficult to
spot beforehand (e.g. 20-30% off a cover price isn't too unusual). However, if
the seller has _every_ book listed for the same price, something is very
obviously wrong.

From those I've seen, it looks as though old and/or inactive accounts have
been compromised. These have a decent history, possibly even a positive
feedback rating, but no activity in (e.g.) the past 12 months.

~~~
caffodian
on .ca they seem to be newer accounts, often "FIRSTNAME LASTNAME" "located" in
the US somewhere.

Totally forgot the _every_ book thing - they also sometimes have items that
aren't actually released yet, but are available for immediate shipping, which
I guess gets them bumped up a bit.

------
soyiuz
The A-Z guarantee is actually pretty biased towards the costumer. Something
went wrong here obviously, but in part it is a side effect of too much
information. There was no need to go visit your neighbors--once the wrong
address is confirmed, A-Z should come into effect. Get someone on the phone if
you can.

The larger problem is the integrity of the package. For example, as a seller,
I've had multiple chargebacks from customers who claimed that the package they
received was empty (and A-Z always ruled in their favor). I've also had
customers "return" items that were not at all the same as the original
purchase. In once case, the returned materials were clearly counterfeit (where
I sold the originals)! A-Z ruled in customer's favor in each case. I've since
stopped selling on Amazon due to prevalent fraud.

The package is pretty well tracked, how do we make sure what goes into the box
corresponds to the sale or refund?

~~~
ryan-c
> In once case, the returned materials were clearly counterfeit (where I sold
> the originals)!

Do you use FBA? If so, do you allow inventory intermingling on your items?

------
8note
oh hey, I work on a team that should prevent this kind of thing. This should
be fun to fix.

[I'm not allowed to say more on the topic, nor do I speak for Amazon, as per
the current Amazon guidelines on what we're allowed to talk about on social
media. We're hiring though, and it's a fun adversarial engineering job]

~~~
CamperBob2
I'd hesitate to blame you if you're on the engineering side. This doesn't
sound like a technical problem, necessarily, but rather a policy-level
problem. The whole sordid affair seems to have taken place because the reps
either didn't comprehend the issue or weren't empowered to do anything about
it.

At a minimum, Bezos needs to have a come-to-Jeff meeting with the people
answering email in his name. It shouldn't be necessary for a customer to start
a Twitter debacle or a social-media shitshow in order to receive good customer
service.

------
QuestionTopic
We're hearing the Complainer's version, and not Amazon's. Lady Justice carries
a balancing scale, with both sides being weighed.

Whenever I see blotted out information, I wonder why...., so let's look at the
evidence carefully.

Notice the ship to address on the Amazon invoice-- the green-blotted-out
portion with the ship to address beginning with a 4 and then green-- possibly
holding another 8 to 10 characters.

Then look at the the USPS confirmation ship to address "Glenbrook Cir" with 13
characters and erased number preface.

The number of characters in the Amazon invoice and USPS confirmation are
probably different. Complainer claims Amazon did not "see" or refuse to
acknowledge the incorrect ship-to-address. Difficult to believe. And according
to Complainer's writing on Amazon's response, Amazon stated the ship-to-
address is correct. If Complainer wants to make a better case, remove the
blotting. The Courts will never allow for this type of deliberate blotting as
evidence, and I don't think we should either.

I've never had problems reaching Amazon support by phone or chat (my choice),
and the delay is usually 30 seconds or less. An easy-to-understand scam as
this would be critical to Amazon's business. Difficult to believe Amazon staff
had trouble understanding Complainer's complaint.

What I see so far is a Complainer who blots out unique identifying person or
address information, and gives photos of various documents, which are
partially related. Partial relationship, not total.

Lady Justice's scale has two weigh pans. The Complainer's weigh pan already
has some holes.

------
luckydude
I got burned in a different way. I have the mark 1 version of the Canon 400mm
DO lens. The mark 2 came out, to rave reviews, I wanted one, got a little
toasted one night and said "screw it, I'm gonna get one". It's $6700 lens.

I clicked around and found one cheaper, it was $6500 so I got that one.

Imagine my joy (jk) when I open it up and found that Amazon/Adorama thought it
was OK to sell me the mark 1 version of lens for $200 less than the much
better mark 2. That's nuts, the mark 1 lens was selling used for about $4000
before the mark 2 came out, when the mark 2 came out, the used value of the
mark 1 dropped to about $2000.

So it's pretty lame of Amazon/Adorama to put the old lens up there for $200
less when it should have been $3000-$4000 less. And pretty stupid of me to not
notice the version.

I had to threaten Adorama with a media campaign before they took the lens
back. Left a sour taste in my mouth and I buy all my stuff from B&H now.

------
Hollow3d
Long time lurker here. Amazon has let a lot of shady business in lately.
Abuses on all sides.

Even my local USPS abuses the system for the 2 day delivery. (They marked a
packages as incorrect address, and than, not available to sign... I called
them, the woman said the were too heavy, so I now get it on day 3..). Now I
know about the free months of prime, but I would have to get USPS to confess
to Amazon what they told me. And I'm not as dedicated as the author.

And the preditory tactics they allow sellers to implement are crazy. I paid to
return a dead on arrival ipod, and I had to send multiple emails to confirm I
was getting my money back. (Seller stated they needed RMA or no refund, seller
never provided RMA after 3 emails. Never even sent an RMA after all that,
Amazon just ended agreeing to refund after multiple calls). Seller is still
active with same terrible return policy.

Good article, I feel less crazy now. Hopefully more of these stories
circulate.

~~~
gergles
Calling your postmaster about the USPS will get the problem fixed. I had a
similar problem where my carrier refused to do Sunday deliveries – they'd
always use the disposition of "nobody available to accept package".

I called the postmaster and complained, and she said they'd look into it. Two
days later, she called back and explained that they had pulled scan records
for the packages going to my apartment building and that all the Sunday
packages were scanned as "nobody available" while the packages were still at
the post office (!).

Apparently, the USPS has GPS attached to all their scan records, so she was
easily able to tell that there was chicanery and to deal with it. I've not had
a problem with Sunday deliveries since.

------
sjoerger
Be wary of Amazon closing your account due to the credit card charge back
dispute.

I had Amazon close my account several years ago due to a credit card number
change right when I made a purchase. It was hell getting them to re-open my
account and take my payment for the product I ordered and received.

~~~
kuschku
I had a similar issue (account didn't authorize a SEPA ELV transfer, so it
bounced), and I just had to send the payment + 6,50€ to amazon via SEPA wire
transfer, and they reopened it.

------
davewasthere
Amazon need to have a "This is a scam" checkbox for resolution. Something
where instead of the automated process, an actual human with a brain looks at
the evidence.

A one-minute read would show that this is fraud and the customer should be
refunded immediately.

------
seshagiric
For those wondering how this scam happens, here is a live example:
[https://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-
listing/B002JCSV8U/ref=dp_ol...](https://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-
listing/B002JCSV8U/ref=dp_olp_all_mbc?ie=UTF8&condition=all)

Notice how the first item is listed at 1/4th price of other listings, and that
seller is a 'just launched' third party. If you text or email asking them to
confirm item is genuine and not stolen, you will not hear from them.

If Amazon wanted they can detect and remove such listings (also good candidate
for ML based fraud detection)

~~~
seshagiric
if Amazon could at least drop third party individual sellers or thoroughly vet
them I'd assume it will reduce such scams considerably.

------
chaoticmass
I don't get how this could happen. I used to sell on eBay and PayPal was very
strict about only shipping items to the address given to me on the PayPal
payment. A way I'd been scammed as a seller was when the buyer asked me to
ship an item to their work address. I complied, and then the buyer did a
paypal dispute saying they never received the item, and I automatically lost
the dispute because I didn't ship to the address on the payment. I just don't
see how Amazon isn't siding with the customer in this case.

------
thezach
If you are the person this happened to file a complaint with the United States
Postal Service office of the Inspector General. As they used USPS this would
actually be mail fraud something the law enforcement arm of the postal service
has jurisdiction over.

You can file a complaint at
[https://postalinspectors.uspis.gov/contactUs/filecomplaint.a...](https://postalinspectors.uspis.gov/contactUs/filecomplaint.aspx)
or by calling 1-800-ASK-USPS

------
ufukbay
This is one of the main reasons I avoid buying anything from Marketplace
sellers on Amazon. One can argue if it is right or wrong but you can't expect
the same level of service which you are used from Amazon for Marketplace
sellers.

Couple times I ordered something without double checking that it is sold and
delivered by Amazon and had nothing but trouble. I’m sure there are honest
Marketplace sellers as well but I just can’t be bothered.

I hope that the OP gets his money back.

------
thezach
I would open a case with the USPS Inspector General
[https://postalinspectors.uspis.gov/contactUs/filecomplaint.a...](https://postalinspectors.uspis.gov/contactUs/filecomplaint.aspx)

This seems like it would be considered mail fraud, and as UPSP was used they
have jurisdiction to investigate it. I'm not sure how serious they will take
the case however.

------
payne92
Contact USPS immediately.

Using the US mail system to commit fraud is a crime, and the post office has
postal inspectors that investigate exactly these kinds of cases.

------
captaindiego
I've had a similar thing likely happen from about $100 of things off
aliexpress. Air china handed off to the USPS and it showed up as delivered
without me ever having signed for it. I argued with aliexpress, and they just
saw air china had it marked as delivered and just closed the claim against me.
If they can do this locally, they likely can pull this off from outside the US
as well.

------
MRSallee
I don't understand why the scammer bothered to ship to an alternate address --
if Amazon is just confirming that the package was delivered and signed for,
wouldn't that also occur if delivered to the buyer's address? The buyer would
sign for the package before opening it and realizing the camera lens wasn't
inside. (The weight difference could be made up with rocks.)

------
cycomachead
Very weird -- earlier this year the FedEx guy delivered some photo mattes to
the apartment across the street. The vendor wouldn't refund me because it
showed as delivered, but Amazon told me (and refunded the $40) specifically
under their A-Z program. Eventually a few weeks later, the box turned up
because I guess someone decided to actually check the address and re-deliver
it.

------
noisy_boy
Item was supposed to be sent to address 'A'. Was accepted at address 'B'. This
billboard-size neon-glowing discrepancy takes so little time/effort to spot
that I'm incredulous that multiple customer "service" people in mentioned in
the blog post didn't see it. It has to be impossible to miss this bloody
obvious gap. Just how?

------
beejiu
I don't know if it is the same in the US, but in the UK you would basically
tell the credit card company this is their problem.

------
rdl
If your credit card doesn't support a chargeback here you should sue the
issuer or st least widely publicize them. Any reasonable issuer would support
this chargeback, particularly with all the evidence you have provided.

I am wary of buying things through amazon, even first party amazon.com LLC
stuff, due to counterfeits and other scams. It is as bad as eBay.

------
sharjeel
Wow. Close call. I was about to get the same lens from the same seller about a
month ago but at the very last moment I thought I can wait for a few weeks to
see some more reviews of the seller come in.

I was thinking about getting defective product shipped etc but never thought I
could have faced such a sophisticated scam.

------
seshagiric
I generally reach out to third party sellers before placing an order. Only if
they respond, do I place my order. In general it's better to avoid them
though. Another scam and actually more hurting to buyer is the sale of stolen
goods (again camera items like in the article).

------
megablast
> The description of the used lens indicated the lens is in excellent
> condition and the price seemed very good… maybe too good

If the lens sell for $1,500, and he got it for $1,490, why does he say he
thinks the price may have been too good? It seems like it would be an accurate
price for it.

------
ratsimihah
Thanks for putting that out here. Amazon shouldn't get away with their bots
like that.

------
benwilber0
about 3 months ago I bought some USB-C <-> USB-A [1] cables on Amazon. I
plugged one into my MacBook and it immediately turned it off and banned it
from the system. I started to smell electrical burning. I yanked the cord out
of the wall and never touched it again. Threw away the whole pack.

The cables were made in China and re-branded by a USA company.

Don't buy cheap Chinese garbage electronics.

[1]
[https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0161GVULY/ref=oh_aui_deta...](https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0161GVULY/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o05_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1)

------
tdburn
Why did he even bother about the shipping address? He should have begun with
reporting receiving the wrong item, that would have then lead to discussion
about the shipping address and incorrect weight. Potentially

------
randyrand
I guess this is why Ebay always sides with the buyer. Scuks for sellers
though.

------
dclowd9901
What? As someone who's sold on Amazon, all the buyer had to do was _cough_ and
they were given a full refund with absolutely no obligation to ship the item
back. Something's not being told here.

~~~
paulgb
Out of curiosity, have you sold items in the 1000+ price range?

------
tarr11
I never purchase an expensive item (>$25 or so) unless it is sold by Amazon.
Right now, I've been looking at buying a Nintendo Switch, which only is
available from third party sellers.

No thanks, I'll wait.

------
gambiting
It's very unfortunate, when the same thing happened to me amazon refunded me
straight away, they acknowledged the person who signed the package was not me
and I had my money back straight away.

------
ctingom
Someone hacked my Seller Central account a few months back. It took 8 weeks to
sort it out with Amazon. In the meantime, they completely suspended my entire
Amazon account. What a nightmare.

------
kylehotchkiss
For the amount of business Amazon gives USPS/UPS/FedEx, you would think their
APIs could show Amazon that a package with a given tracking number matches the
address for the order.

------
gumby
For $1500 it's worth taking Amazon to small claims court. Not for the fraud --
that was the fraudster -- but for their refusal to to honor the terms of their
guarantee.

------
bayesian_horse
From my extremely limited understanding of legal matters, I'd say this should
be a criminal fraud case. Maybe the police can get through the "wall" at
Amazon.

------
celerrimus
In my opinion this makes amazon an accomplice of the theft, especially that
they earned a commission from this operation.

Hope that buyer will get help and get his money back.

------
ashbrahma
Amazon solves for these types of problems in other markets (India) through
Cash on Delivery.

------
pjc50
As the author says, this is what the credit card dispute system ought to sort
out.

~~~
ceejayoz
Not if you've got EC2 instances or Kindle books.

~~~
pjc50
You're saying that disputing with Amazon will _pull all your kindle books_? I
don't think that would fly in countries with consumer rights. Bear in mind
this is also a Marketplace seller and not the real Amazon.

~~~
ceejayoz
Steam happily bans accounts that make chargebacks, so it's apparently legal
(or at least get-away-with-it-able) in the US. I'm really not willing to take
that risk with Amazon.

~~~
Simon_says
You know, I think I just decided never to use Steam again. Thanks.

------
noncoml
I hope you get enough social media visibility to get your money back.

------
chrismealy
What's Amazon's cut of a $1500 third party sale?

------
KiDD
Amazon Marketplace is full of garbage sellers...

------
redleggedfrog
"...trustworthy as Amazon."

?!

Amazon has their money, and most everyone's money. There is little incentive
here to do the right thing.

------
Hnrobert42
Enter binding arbitration.

------
ScamAlert
test

------
softwarefounder
I like how this list is zero-indexed.

~~~
haburka
Liking zero indexed lists is such a dumb programmer meme. Lists are for humans
to read and therefore should use the natural numbers, which start at one.
Arrays are zero indexed because the first item of the array starts with zero
offset.

~~~
joshontheweb
I found it interesting to see that building floors in Australia are zero
indexed. The first floor there is what Americans would call the second. Not
sure why they chose to do it that way but it works fine in the real world.

~~~
cyphar
That's not the case in all Australian buildings. Usually we call the ground
floor "ground floor" (which you could argue is 0-indexed), and the floor above
it is "the first floor". But there are a lot of buildings that follow the
American style of "the ground floor is the first floor".

We also don't use negative numbers, basements are prefixed with a B, so B1 is
like -1.

------
yahna
I would reply to Jeff again with the particularly unhelpful email.

------
ucaetano
Email jeff@amazon.com.

I've done it a few times before when Amazon really messed up. I got a call
back in less than 24 hours and my problem was solved.

[Edit: read the article again, it seems he did :) ]

~~~
pacificmint
If you read the article, he _did_ , someone got back to him on his behalf and
it did not resolve his problem.

------
dangerboysteve
As the other commentators on the posting pointed out. Stop pissing around with
Amazon customer service (who are usually excellent) and perform a credit card
charge back.

------
eutropia
Maybe this sort of fraud becomes impossible if we had cryptographic ledger
based delivery confirmation systems (keyed to sender, recipient, delivery
address). Edit: Because apparently technological solutions aren't to be
discussed if they involve recent, trendy tech?

~~~
mi100hael
lol blockchain.

It'd only work if they wrote the APIs in Rust and the management UI was
isomorphic React.

~~~
qaq
no noSQL? it's not webscale

