
Justice-as-a-Service - gwintrob
http://henrikzillmer.com/justice-as-a-service
======
hyperion2010
The depth of misunderstanding of what justice is here is utterly staggering.
Contract enforcement (or just enforcement) as a service maybe, but going after
a company because you feel that they wronged you is as far from justice as
revenge killing (to be fair the article does specifically mention violation of
consumer protection laws here). The notion that anything other than a state
(read: leviathan) can administer justice is a dangerously misleading notion
since unless both parties agree to abide by the system then there is no
consistent notion of justice (note that accepting your citizenship is tacit
agreement).

~~~
6502nerdface
> The notion that anything other than a state (read: leviathan) can administer
> justice is a dangerously misleading notion since unless both parties agree
> to abide by the system then there is no consistent notion of justice (note
> that accepting your citizenship is tacit agreement).

Well, how Hobbesian! Of course, this is not the only possible conception of
justice, which is, as Plato put it (in Jowett's translation), "sometimes
spoken of as the virtue of an individual, and sometimes as the virtue of a
State." But in either case, if we want to get all philosophical about it, I
share your skepticism... if justice is a virtue, can we really have a virtue
as a service (VaaS)?

Seriously, though, I don't think the OP's point is to propose _administration_
of justice outside the state, but rather that certain tech advances can make
it economically feasible for small, individual claims to be given a "fair
shake" _within_ the state system; claims which currently are too small to be
worth a lawyer's---or even the claimant's---time without said tech.

~~~
hyperion2010
I agree, and I think that it is actually pretty cool that there are some
solutions that could put previously uneconomical enforcement to become
economical. I do get the feeling though that this wouldn't be as much of an
issue if corps were not continually trying (and succeeding) to prevent
collective action against them (eg class action suits).

------
liamcardenas
"Maybe your flight got cancelled. Or your cable subscription got more
expensive. Or maybe you bought something online and the day after the price
dropped. Or the package arrived two days late."

Sorry, those are not injustices. Especially service price increases and "after
purchase" price drops.

This makes me wonder: What if a JaaS company alters its prices? What recourse
will consumers have to correct this "injustice"?

In all seriousness, however, I believe that this deserves a better name. Maybe
Reimbursements as a Service (RaaS).

~~~
mattlutze
The author calls it "justice-as-a-service" because it fits the mnemonic.

The article is really talking about automated consumer rights services, which
is something quite different. In that, helping consumers take maximum
advantage of what local, state, or federal law offers them could certainly be
both a helpful public service and a lucrative market.

------
patio11
There exist a lot of opportunities for startups to use technology to make
previously high-friction experiences dealing with the bureaucracy into low-
friction experiences to the mutual benefit of bureaucracy and its clients.

An example: substantially every state has a legal requirement that businesses
which find themselves in possession of property which isn't theirs must hold
it for a while (for the rightful owner) then escheat it. Escheating means
"deposit with the state for safekeeping." This doesn't extinguish the original
owner's interest in the property; in principle, you have a long or unbounded
amount of time to ask for the property back. (You might be thinking "A lost
hat" but think more "An abandoned bank account" or "The surrender value of a
life insurance policy" or "A paycheck that was never deposited.")

Those processes typically take place on paper and are relatively high-
friction. For example, you need to get a document notarized, provide various
proofs of ID and previous address, etc etc. Some states have very simple CRUD
apps which let you check the status of claims these days. Those CRUD apps
could be much, much improved upon by e.g. making it more straightforward for
people to find and claim their own property. (This is generally free under the
laws of most states, and some less-scrupulous operators charge for essentially
running a free search then presenting the results to you, but one could
imagine a value-adding business here.)

~~~
hodgesrm
Another way to look at it is that there are many use cases (like the one you
cite) that involve information asymmetry. [1] That's usually a good place to
create new markets. The legal field seems rather promising in this respect as
the current delivery model of $300/hour with high minimum costs is incapable
of addressing basic quick-hit problems like evaluating an offer letter to help
with employment negotiation.

The interesting issue is not so much technology (it's basically there) but how
to market to customers who only intermittently have a problem that requires
your product. You have to find niche market customers who experience the
asymmetry on a regular basis or you have to go through channels instead of
direct sales. (Example: piggy back on LinkedIn as a channel to deliver
services to assert rights under prevailing labor law.)

[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Information_asymmetry](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Information_asymmetry)

------
pbiggar
I've dreamed of this for spam. You scan my email and find people who have
spammed me, violating whatever laws govern these things. Then you claim the
statutory penalty on my behalf, taking a cut. Then maybe people will stop.

I'm mostly talking about recruiters and salespeople emailing me direct. I'm
not even sure if that's illegal though.

~~~
rhizome
See: Intel vs. Hamidi

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intel_Corp._v._Hamidi](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intel_Corp._v._Hamidi)

~~~
pbiggar
Is that situation the same as a outsiders spamming? I don't see the
connection.

------
readams
Some of the links are wrong.

The real links are: Fixed: [https://www.fixed.com](https://www.fixed.com)
Paribus: [https://paribus.co/](https://paribus.co/)

------
delinka
“No Win, No Fee”

So people will begin to submit every little grievance since they won't get
charged if they don't 'win' on the chance that they'll get a payout if they do
win. At what point does JaaS stop scaling? Perhaps this one stop on the way to
fully digitized contracts?

Two things came to mind when I see this (neither of which my Search Fu is
successful at finding...): 1)A short story placed in the 'near future' where
people receive emails from lawyers about copyright infringement where
settlement of a few cents is offered and can be paid right from the email. 2)
Recent research into digital contracts for financial systems. JaaS feels like
#1 developing from the consumer direction.

~~~
schoen
> A short story placed in the 'near future' where people receive emails from
> lawyers about copyright infringement where settlement of a few cents is
> offered and can be paid right from the email.

I've read that story and think it was by either Cory Doctorow or Charles
Stross.

There is automated high-volume litigation as a plot point in Stross's
_Accelerando_ , but I think that's not the story that you're thinking of.

[http://www.antipope.org/charlie/blog-
static/fiction/accelera...](http://www.antipope.org/charlie/blog-
static/fiction/accelerando/accelerando.html)

I think the one you're thinking of features a little girl being sued for
benefiting from colonial-era crimes in the Belgian Congo (among other micro-
lawsuits).

~~~
martey
_I think the one you 're thinking of features a little girl being sued for
benefiting from colonial-era crimes in the Belgian Congo (among other micro-
lawsuits)._

This is Paul Ford's "Nanolaw with Daughter":
[http://www.ftrain.com/nanolaw.html](http://www.ftrain.com/nanolaw.html)

~~~
schoen
Yes, it sure is! Thanks for the reference.

------
readams
I think in this area there's only so much they can really do since if they
really make an impact they'll just be blocked or terms and conditions updated
to prevent them from being able to operate. Fixed, for example, has been
blocked by various cities, including San Francisco.

~~~
hobbyjogger
Yeah - calling it "justice"-as-a-service seems a little ambitious. More like
"(semi-)automated emails/letters asking for refunds"-as-a-service.

These emails/letters are, for the most part, only going to be as effective as
corporate policy allows.

~~~
mdpopescu
patio11 calls lawyers "professional letter writers"; this does seem to lead to
"letter writing as a service" :)

~~~
hobbyjogger
Ha, maybe these guys need to team up with
[http://snailmailmyemail.org/](http://snailmailmyemail.org/) so that the
recipients can't reliably identify and block their LWAAS.

------
tempestn
Did "Justice-as-a-Service" bring to mind a hit man for anyone else?

~~~
sheraz
This is exactly what I thought it was. In fact, my imagination flashed forward
to a typical SaaS page with pricing tables and everything depending on the
level of "Justice" you want served.

The $49 package is a firm knock on the door, some harsh words, and light
intimidation to motivate the servee to make things right.

The $99 package is a everything in the $49 package, plus some unsavory
physical intimidation.

And the final $299 is the "Justice Served" package. Full Stop.

------
danielfoster
You might also want to add Pixsy to your list:
[http://www.pixsy.com/](http://www.pixsy.com/)

One of the things we're working to fix is helping photographers overcome the
vast complexity of international IP law. Artists have the right to their work
in almost every country, but it's practically impossible for them to enforce
this at home let alone in unknown legal systems. We currently help artists
obtain compensation for the unauthorized use of their work in nearly ten
countries.

~~~
finnn
That sounds (to me) like corporate newspeak for "litigious copyright troll as
a service"

~~~
danielfoster
In what way? Photographers work hard to make a living, and we've seen many
cases of businesses (we only pursue businesses) knowingly profiting from
photographers' work, and then in turn tell the photographers to go take a
hike.

Here's a perspective on image theft from one of our photographers:
[https://www.pixsy.com/pay-up-for-the-photo-you-
stole/](https://www.pixsy.com/pay-up-for-the-photo-you-stole/)

I don't see how helping a photographer obtain compensation for a stolen photo
is any different from helping an airline passenger collect compensation.

------
zekevermillion
Online dispute resolution works b/c the disputes in question are small. You
would not want to have an important civil matter (like a divorce) settled in
ODR b/c the rules are so flexible. It's basically, whatever the arbitrator
thinks is "fair". I'm exaggerating slightly, but in many cases (e.g., modria)
I've read that the arbs are given a fairly light training on anglo-saxon legal
principles then left to apply their moral intuition. That's fine if you're
just arguing over an ebay return. It's not fine if you're arguing over custody
of your kids. Cynically, I wonder if ODR would work just as well if the result
were random (as long as the disputants don't realize this). The process gives
the illusion of redress for small wrongs, a way for angry customers to vent,
and a 50/50 chance at "justice" for each party.

------
breakingcups
Over here (in the Netherlands) there are already a handful of websites (backed
by young lawfirms) that will challenge your traffic ticket for you (not just
parking, but speeding violations, seatbelts, etc, etc.).

They will do all due diligence (requesting the full report, speeding camera
photo if provided, checking every response from the DA-equivalent for any
errors, etc) on the basis that, for those cases in which the ticket is
dropped, the Dutch state is obligated to pay for the lawyer fees.

The process for the end-user is incredibly simple. Upload a scan of the ticket
/ summons, fill in a short blurb about why you think the ticket is invalid,
sign a permission slip and done. It will never cost you a thing.

------
ipsin
I also think that the effect of money on the law is corrosive, and while this
kind of technology may level the playing field, that's not a universal good.

Right now in some venues you can buy "the right lawyer" for a lot of money and
get a DUI pled down to a slap on the wrist.

That's not justice, but lowering the price to $200, and turning "the right
lawyer" into an algorithm that snows the court into letting you off isn't
justice either.

------
ipsin
This seems infeasible in the United States.

If I've already agreed to a stacked arbitration process as part of a contract,
isn't "the legal system" mostly out of the picture? All you're left is
appealing to a company's reputation, to "do the right thing".

~~~
ianferrel
I think it's only going to work in specific cases where policy or regulation
demand. Note the examples: Airlines, telecommunications companies, parking
tickets. Either heavily regulated industries or the government itself.

Amazon and the shipping companies aren't, but I fully expect that if this sort
of thing becomes a major cost, they'll simply adjust their policies to
eliminate it. Amazon doesn't _have_ to offer a refund for a later price drop
the way that airlines have to compensate you if your flight is sufficiently
delayed.

Is there any indication that this will extend to general companies? I'm
guessing that there aren't legislated consumer rights in most industries.

------
mike_hock
Well, lawyers are essentially "justice as a service," aren't they.

~~~
jameshart
Well, shops which retail boxed shrinkwrapped software are essentially
"software as a service" aren't they?

~~~
lotyrin
Not really.

Maybe if they rented transferable licenses.

~~~
jameshart
Oh. So maybe lawyers are also not justice as a service. Maybe that was my
point.

~~~
lotyrin
No, my point was that lawyers are not products unless you mix in human
trafficking.

What do you think the split between service and product is?

------
legalfoundry
Free (to you), Self-Service arbitration vs Comcast, AT&T, Verizon, TWC and
many more...

[https://www.legalfoundryllc.com/](https://www.legalfoundryllc.com/)

------
jMyles
Justice-as-a-Service: What the DoJ has been falsely claiming to provide since
1870!

------
trhway
reminded USSR/Russia ~25 years ago - justice/protection/extortion/etc.-as-a-
service and all at the same time by the same gang controlling given territory
or business domain .

------
foxhop
Free idea, likely worth millions if executed properly:

Consumer rebates management service

------
gnaritas
> Justice-as-a-Service

Justice that has to be bought isn't justice; justice as a service, what an
absolutely terrible idea. As if we don't already have big enough problems with
justice depending on the depth of your wallet.

