
Twitter engineers replacing racially loaded tech terms like 'master,' 'slave' - martinlaz
https://www.cnet.com/news/twitter-engineers-replace-racially-loaded-tech-terms-like-master-slave/
======
brink
I never in my twenty years of computing have thought of those words in terms
of race until today.

Race is being dragged into everything now and I hate it.

~~~
rvz
It's likely that you have something that has a particular word that some how
'offends' someone.

Given the word 'Master' would asking 'MasterCard' to change its name make it
less racist? Can't say Masters degree anymore because someone has dragged race
into it and has been 'offended' by it. Perhaps you know some academic who's in
a dilemma and can't cite a quote from a paper because the terminology contains
the scary 'Master' word in it due to fear of being called a 'racist' if they
use it. See where this goes? Where do you draw the line and how far will this
be taken?

At some point, someone is going to draw the line somewhere and disagree with
renaming for the sake of virtue signalling.

~~~
HappyDreamer
I'm wondering if "Master" isn't the problem — it's "Slave" that's not so good.

And, when changing "Slave" to e.g. "Follower", it makes sense to rename
"Master" to "Leader" too.

I'm surprised some people want to rename the Git "master" branches to "main",
although the word "slave" is absent in this context. That's similar to your
MasterCard example? (Rename to "MainCard".) But I'm not a native speaker or
color minority person where I am currently, so what do I know.

At the same time, "main branch" is shorter than "master branch" and simpler to
understand for beginners? I think it's a better name.

------
Raed667
(Non-US opinion) I don't mind changing the usage of loaded terms, either
racially or in other ways (like grooming).

Changing the usage doesn't harm me in any way and if it arguably provides a
more welcoming environment for people then why not.

~~~
DyslexicAtheist
it distracts from the real problem and from actual solutions as I mentioned in
my other comment[1]. companies actions (such as using off-shore havens, and
funding surveillance Tech) need to stop. by playing the culture war we make
ourselves feel good without stopping anything.

[1]
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23727420](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23727420)

~~~
iagovar
> by playing the culture war we make ourselves feel good without stopping
> anything.

Thank god I'm not alone.

~~~
WaxProlix
Not only are you not alone, that's both the default view of many (most?)
programmers and the stated claim of many closeted racists who want to detract
from incremental steps by referencing orthogonal issues and derailing
conversations.

~~~
iagovar
I don't want to detract anything, I just find it absurd. You can call me what
you want, don't really care at this point.

------
f3295cde
Please explain to me how "sanity check" or "dummy value" can reasonably be
considered non-inclusive.

There are multiple definitions of these words including:

Sanity - reasonable and rational behaviour.

Dummy - an object designed to resemble and serve as a substitute for the real
or usual one.

It strikes me as incredibly sensitive to say these are unacceptable for use.
Sure, we _can_ use different words but that is not the point - the point is
how can words used as commonly defined and with no spite or foul intention be
banned?

The comedian Stewart Lee has an excellent routine on this:

[https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b03zdyz5](https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b03zdyz5)

~~~
natdempk
Copy-pasted my comment here, but similar to how we no longer use "retarded" to
be sensitive to the disabled, people have been rethinking words like "crazy",
"insane", or "sanity" to be sensitive towards those with mental illness. For
people with mental illness those words may be loaded with negative meaning and
there are often more neutral or descriptive terms that can be used instead.

Update: Not sure why I got downvoted for stating the rationale for why people
are making this change. Objectively I haven't even stated my opinion on the
change, just the rationale I've seen for it. If you want a source here's one
from NPR around this language: [https://www.npr.org/2019/07/08/739643765/why-
people-are-argu...](https://www.npr.org/2019/07/08/739643765/why-people-are-
arguing-to-stop-using-the-words-crazy-and-insane)

~~~
f3295cde
I fundamentally disagree that you can't use a word in one context because of
its use in another. If I call someone a bastard I do not mean that they were
born out of wedlock the context and use of the word are entirely different.

~~~
natdempk
Sure, I agree everything has nuance and context to it. I was really just
stating the rationale I've seen given for avoiding those words rather than
offering my opinion.

That being said, given your example I'd ask you to consider this situation: If
you call someone a bastard jokingly and they happened to be a child who was
born out of wedlock and it was a sensitive subject for them, do you think it
would potentially be hurtful? Is there another word you could choose to get
the same point across that might have been less hurtful? If so, is there a
significant downside to using that other word instead? If you found out that
someone was literally a bastard and the word made them unhappy, would you
continue to use it when talking with them?

------
bluedevil2k
There were masters and slaves thousands of years before it existed here in
America. To claim the terms are _only_ referencing slavery in America is
rather short sighted.

~~~
bmm6o
I'm not sure i saw that claim in TFA. Did i miss it?

~~~
therealdrag0
It’s only “racial” if master/slave is racial. There has been racial slavery in
America. But the master/slave are themselves are not inherently racial words.
To be hyperbolic, it’d be like avoiding the use of the word “cotton”.

------
iagovar
That will change a lot of stuff.

I really have an inside battle when I read this sort of stuff here on HN,
because I don't want to post derailed political comments, I want this place to
be like it is, keep it cool and avoid _kulturwars_ , but man it's hard.

Look, I'm not in the US, so maybe I can't even think how it is with racism
there, but I just can't help to think this is kind of stupid-naive virtue
signaling. It feels like some bunch of uber-priviledged SV guys who think too
high of themselves want to feel good about something and they come up with
this BS that everyone will forget a week later.

Man, it's so surreal. Don't you have poor people in your city? What about
helping your local NGOs? What about working for them for free? One week you
help feed the people, another in the kitchen and another one in accounting.

Dunno, it feels sooooo far away from my reality. I don't know what is to be
earning +100k year and thinking this is a great idea! It was even difficult to
write this comment because I find it funny and just feel the impulse to mock
this.

~~~
jakelazaroff
_> I just can't help to think this is kind of stupid-naive virtue signaling.
It feels like some bunch of uber-priviledged SV guys who think too high of
themselves want to feel good about something_

Except that’s not what happened. This was spearheaded by Black developers who
don’t want to have to read about “slaves” being “rekicked” at their jobs. Is
that not a reasonable request?

~~~
Yetanfou
Please don't capitalise the term 'black' here, leave that to political
pamphlets like the New York Times (who seem to be the ones who started this).
The more people start identifying themselves with their inalienable
characteristics like skin colour, hair colour or eye colour , the further
we'll get away from the ideal of a colour-blind society.

Yes, that is the ideal, that the colour of your skin does _not matter_. If you
don't want to take my word on it, maybe Martin Luther King can convince you:

 _I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation
where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of
their character.

I have a dream today!_

[1]
[https://www.americanrhetoric.com/speeches/mlkihaveadream.htm](https://www.americanrhetoric.com/speeches/mlkihaveadream.htm)

~~~
jakelazaroff
I don’t see that quote as advocating for color–blindness. There is a
difference between seeing the color of someone’s skin and _judging_ them for
it.

But if you adopt MLK’s views like this, can I take it that you then support
reparations and civil unrest in response to racial oppression? That you think
the biggest obstacle to racial justice are white moderates? That you oppose
capitalism and support socialism?

~~~
Yetanfou
> But if you adopt MLK’s views like this, can I take it that you then support
> reparations and civil unrest in response to racial oppression

Why would you think that? MLK was his own agent and so am I. Just like he
agreed with some of the things e.g. Fredrick Douglas said but disagreed with
others, I agree with some things he said and disagree with others. On the
subject of the response to racial oppression I can, in some cases, support
civil unrest as that is often the only way of breaking a status-quo. I do not
support direct reparations because a) this does not solve the problem and b)
neither those who would pay nor those who get paid are either guilty of
enslaving people or having been enslaved. Targeted investments in areas which
still suffer from the effects of earlier redlining and similar Jim Crow laws
are something I can stand behind, as long as they are just that: targeted and
effective. I do not support "Socialism" since I interpret that as being the
precursor to Communism which has cost enough lives by now that it should be
clear to even the most stubborn observer that it is a dead-end street -
literally. I do not oppose Capitalism as it is implemented in e.g. north-
western Europe, i.e. an economically liberal social democracy. Is it perfect?
No, certainly not. Can it be improved? Absolutely. Given all that it still
seems to be a reasonable compromise between individual liberty and social
responsibility, both terms which when taken to the extreme lead to (extreme
liberty) chaos and (extreme social responsibility) oppression.

------
Andrew_nenakhov
Soon:

Chess is racist, blacks always move second and are thus at a disadvantage.
Cancel chess.

Daoism is racist, yin is black and has negative connotations. Cancel Daoism.

Star Wars are racist. Droids are enslaved, C3P0 even calls his owner 'Master
Luke', a racially-charged word. Cancel Star Wars.

Education is racist. Issued Master's degrees use a racially-charged word.
Cancel education.

"To kill a mockingbird" is racist. It is full of insensitive language and it
makes reader feel uncomfortable. Cancel "To kill a mockingbird".

"Mysterious island" by J.Verne is racist. The only black character is a
servant to a wise white engineer and serves mostly as a comedic relief. Cancel
"Mysterious island".

Coal industry is racist, miners are always mocking blacks wearing blackface
after every shift. Cancel coal mining. (Good for environment, too!)

Disclaimer: I'm so insensitive because I was born with a white privilege,
which I greatly enjoyed since my early childhood in an industrial/mining town
in the Ural Mountains, near the eastern border of Siberia.

------
blackbrokkoli
Saying that these terms are racially loaded is, well, racist.

I can kind of understand the argument that there is a history of racism
connected with slavery, but the concept of "slave" predates discrimination of
coloured people by millenia, closely followed by the word itself, which is
actually derived from "Slav" (like you sometimes hear Russians being referred
as). But fair enough, seeing a connection to racism is maybe just misinformed.

But "blacklist" (and "whitelist") is just completely absurd. "Blacklist" is a
term from a play, referring to a literally black list. Whitelist is just an
antonym. Such color metaphors are incredibly common, think wedding dresses or
"black death", or black flags, or white lie. Obviously, none of this is
connected to skin color. How exactly does your mind have to be wired to come
to the opposite conclusion?

As one of the largest (and most criticized) players in political information,
one would think that Twitter could maybe do something better about the current
situation than engaging in etymological misinformation...

------
dijit
This is going to be controversial; thus flagged, but I'd like to have an
actual conversation about this.

It's my understanding that slavery has very little to do with race, blacklist
has nothing to do with black people and "man" is the default term of humanity
that comes from a completely different etymology than the word we use to refer
to a male person.

I'm generally pretty stubborn but given the amount of traction this is
getting, can someone _please_ explain to me the logic here? I'm perfectly
willing to change my mind but right now I cannot fathom that these terms were
harming people- unless those people were looking for reasons to be harmed.

~~~
frandroid
There were eras where slavery had little to do with race (see: the Roman
Republic and Empire) but the history of slavery in the last half-millennium
had everything to do with race; it is the edifice on which white supremacy was
built.

You're not "controversial" for skipping over the blindingly obvious, but we're
not allowed to insult people on this forum, so feh!

~~~
Andrew_nenakhov
> but the history of slavery in the last half-millennium had everything to do
> with race;

Slaves in Russian Empire were freed a few years earlier than slaves in the
USA. There were roughly 5 times more slaves in Russia than in USA, and I can
pretty confidently say that zero of them were black. Even if you add ~2
million black slaves from Brazil, the number of black slaves would be dwarfed
by the white slave population from Russia.

Based on this calculation, I don't think that your thesis about the history of
slavery in the last 500 years holds well.

~~~
Veen
There was also the Barbary Slave Trade, which lasted until the early 19th
Century and during which over a million Europeans were removed from Europe
during raids and enslaved in North Africa. Not to mention slavery in Africa
itself, which goes from pre-history to today. The Atlantic Slave Trade is a
stain on the history of the West, but it is by no means unique.

------
Arcuru
There's been a movement at my employer to replace some of these terms for
years, though it seems to be getting more widespread attention lately.

Some of the terms, especially 'whitelist' and 'blacklist', are also very
confusing to many non-native english speakers. 'Allowlist' and 'denylist' are
just a lot clearer in those cases.

------
micheljansen
Moving away from race a bit and totally anecdotally, but my wife was looking
at my screen once while I was using the command line and she remarked how it
seemed like all the commands were chosen by men: kill, terminate, spawn,
mount, push etc. It may be subtle but words matter and they do attract or
repel people. And then we complain why there are too few women in tech.
Inclusion is not just about race.

------
ibejoeb
>Sanity check becomes quick check, confidence check or coherence check

why?

~~~
natdempk
Similar to how we no longer use "retarded" to be sensitive to the disabled,
people have been rethinking words like "crazy", "insane", or "sanity" to be
sensitive towards those with mental illness.

Update: Not sure why I got downvoted for stating the rationale for why people
are making this change. Objectively I haven't even stated my opinion on the
change, just the rationale I've seen for it. If you want a source here's one
from NPR around this language: [https://www.npr.org/2019/07/08/739643765/why-
people-are-argu...](https://www.npr.org/2019/07/08/739643765/why-people-are-
arguing-to-stop-using-the-words-crazy-and-insane)

~~~
mlyle
An interesting tangent is-- "retarded, moron, imbecile" all were relatively
neutral medical terms once upon a time.

Labels applied to disadvantaged groups linguistically develop a pejorative
connotation over time.

~~~
bobthepanda
It doesn't really help that a lot of what we used to consider mental illness
was mostly just behavior not conforming with the mainstream. US suffragettes
hunger-striking were institutionalized and force-fed under the guise of mental
illness, and being gay itself used to be classified as a mental illness.

------
lollerka
I'm not american and don't know what do these words _mean_ for a lot of
people. My sidestory that I only feel "bad" because as a non-native english
speaker it's really hard sometimes to speak correctly PC-ish. For example my
native tongue doesn't have gender pronouns. Grammatical gender doesn't exist
at all. So third person singular doesn't make a difference between gender like
english. It doesn't exist when I address that person. But when I go to Twitter
or check people's profile they more and more ask how they should be addressed
or what pronoun to use. Just interesting how the language can affect your way
of thinking about the world.

~~~
disposekinetics
It is hard for native speakers to keep up with the demands too.

------
Yetanfou
Are they going to rename their servers as well? The word 'server' comes from
the Latin word 'servus' which means _slave_.

Also, the word 'twit' has several meanings which might not fall so well with
certain people. Ask Google Translate what it means and this is what you get:

Twit: (noun) a silly or foolish person. Syonyms: _idiot ass halfwit nincompoop
blockhead buffoon dunce dolt ignoramus cretin imbecile dullard moron simpleton
clod dope ninny chump dimwit nitwit goon dumbo dummy dum-dum dumbbell loon
jackass bonehead fathead numbskull dunderhead chucklehead knucklehead
muttonhead pudding-head thickhead wooden-head airhead pinhead lamebrain
peabrain birdbrain zombie jerk nerd dipstick donkey noodle nit numpty clot
goat plonker berk prat pillock wally git wazzock divvy nerk twerp charlie mug
muppet nyaff balloon sumph gowk gobdaw schmuck bozo boob lamer turkey
schlepper chowderhead dumbhead goofball goof goofus galoot dork lummox klutz
putz schlemiel sap meatball gink cluck clunk ding-dong dingbat wiener weeny
dip simp spud coot palooka poop squarehead yo-yo dingleberry wing nut drongo
dill alec galah nong bogan poon boofhead mompara tomfool noddy clodpole
loggerhead spoony mooncalf_

While I personally think they chose a name which fits the product very well
indeed I do get the feeling that, if the current witch hunt continues, they'll
eventually fall foul of the mob and be either forced to bend to their will or
find themselves in the position now reserved for Facebook, i.e. the whipping
boy of the social media giants.

------
AzzieElbab
Really sad seeing a flagship company making headlines with something this
superficial.

~~~
Anthony-G
With its 140 character limit and its desire for "engagement", I always felt
that Twitter was optimising for superficiality.

------
cyc116
As an Asian American. I find Yellowstone national park offensive and
oppressive.

~~~
emerged
Sorry but you have to wait your turn. We will burn down buildings, tear down
statues, loot and protest for you after the blacks.

I get dibs after Asians, as a person who has some rosacea. For too long we
have been disadvantaged.

------
baggy_trough
To say that these terms are racist, one must start with a racist point of
view.

~~~
hw
+100. Race is a product of racism, not the other way around. One is not born
of a particular race and the practice of racism is what makes being of certain
colors the same as being associated with a certain race. Would recommend
reading "Racecraft: The Soul of Inequality in American Life" by Karen E
Fields.

------
klagan
ridiculous. context is king

------
jyriand
I would think racism and slavery are two different things. Usually slaves and
masters are of the same race. But I understand why this might be a good move,
the word “slave” itself is pretty loaded with negative connotations.

~~~
frandroid
> Usually slaves and masters are of the same race.

Not for the last 500 years.

~~~
Andrew_nenakhov
In the last 500 years, too, without any doubt. There were 21 million white
slaves in Russia, emancipated only in 1861. USA and Brazil had ~4,5+2 million
black slaves, combined.

------
r721
Another discussion:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23723433](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23723433)

------
kache_
This endeavor is doubleplus good!

------
PeterBarrett
The whole idea is to remove the subconscious bias that it creates in our
minds, always associating black with bad and white with good in the case of
blacklist and white list.

None of this has any effect on me and I don't see the negative side of
changing it.

~~~
f3295cde
Black is not always associated with bad and white is not always associated
with good - their general associations with bad/good respectively are
independent of race.

~~~
PeterBarrett
Judging by your response (and the amount of comments you've made in this
thread) I don't think you really took the time to think about my comment.

We obviously didn't chose black list or white list to donate race but
regardless it's another brick in wall for black to equate to bad.

As a white European this has no impact on me in any way shape or form apart
from wanting a more inclusive space for my friends.

Out of interest why are you so against the idea of changing terms? In your
comment here
([https://news.ycombinator.com/user?id=f3295cde](https://news.ycombinator.com/user?id=f3295cde))
you make the comparison of "will replace the word 'football' as it is
offensive to people with limb difference", you do realise these are
fundamentally different issues right? People aren't looking to replace the
words for the fun of it.

~~~
WaxProlix
It's a troll account made just to stink up this specific thread, report it and
move on.

------
nappy
This is controversial but shouldn't be flagged. It's a link to a factual news
story. Dang could you unflag this or otherwise explain why this remains
flagged?

------
syshum
Anyone else find it ironic the official announcement on twitter about a major
programming change about inclusivity was posted in a non-accessible way?

------
grawprog
Tl'dr the list of words to be replaced:

>Whitelist becomes allowlist.

>Blacklist becomes denylist.

>Master/slave becomes leader/follower, primary/replica or primary/standby.

>Grandfathered becomes legacy status.

>Gendered pronouns (for example "guys") become folks, people, you all, y'all.

>Gendered pronouns (for example "he" or "his") become they or their.

>Man hours becomes person hours or engineer hours.

>Sanity check becomes quick check, confidence check or coherence check.

>Dummy value becomes placeholder value or sample value.

~~~
ethbro
>Gendered pronouns (for example "he" or "his") become they or their.

For the love of grammar, just invent a neutral pronoun.

"He" or "she" is singular.

"They" is plural.

These things are not like each other.

~~~
zorpner
"The Oxford English Dictionary traces singular they back to 1375"
[https://public.oed.com/blog/a-brief-history-of-singular-
they...](https://public.oed.com/blog/a-brief-history-of-singular-they/)

~~~
ethbro
If thou takest thy authority from a 1375 education, methinks the chasm betwixt
us doth yawn overbroadly for debate.

------
cobbzilla
Could "Spartan" and "Helot" work? Or would Greeks be offended?

------
chris_wot
And yet they allow Trump to tweet his hatred.

------
bigpumpkin
Orange is the New Purple

------
senthil_rajasek
Thank you twitter engineers. To the people trying to deflect, consider this as
an opportunity to learn and progress.

So much of the tech language is filled with insensitivity.

~~~
caned
It seems that there is a movement that values "sensitivity" more than
understanding. How does this so-called progress lead to greater understanding?

~~~
senthil_rajasek
Ahhh it allows minorities feel welcome, more involved and free to be
themselves.

It certainly was a relief for me ( I am a dark Indian) when SQLServer went
from master/slave to publisher/subscriber.

I don't have to second guess intonations when people say master/slave as a sly
joke or a sincere discussion in tech meetings.

------
gator-io
We now live in clown world.

------
draugadrotten
There is a lot of "white" and "black" out there to replace, especially on
paper.

------
DyslexicAtheist
github (owned by Microsoft) also was on the FP just recently for renaming
_master_.

this feels like empty (if not hypocritical) when (as Cory Doctrow writes) the
same companies:

 _" spend 20-45% of their budgets on policing on but cops run foundations that
solicit millions from large corporations, which then take tax breaks for their
donations. The money goes into a slushfund used to procure off-the-books
military and surveillance gear. "_ \--
[https://twitter.com/doctorow/status/1278391796733669378](https://twitter.com/doctorow/status/1278391796733669378)

this just fuels the culture wars but does nothing to address the problem of
racism

------
jakelazaroff
To everyone whose first reaction to this is negative, can I ask why? Do you
really have an emotional investment in these specific terms?

We have the opportunity to make tech marginally more hospitable to Black
developers at basically zero cost to everyone else. Let’s not mess it up!

~~~
f3295cde
It is not about the specific words, it is language and the use of words. Let's
say ESPN came out tomorrow and said they will replace the word 'football' as
it is offensive to people with limb difference - would you nod and toe the
line without raising an eyebrow?

~~~
jakelazaroff
Sure. Again, why is that a problem? I have literally zero emotional investment
in being able to call football “football”. Why would I _not_ make a tiny
change that has no pragmatic impact on my life in order to be more
considerate?

------
monkpit
There is a lot of downvoting going on in here on very valid comments. I know
it goes against the guidelines to complain about downvotes, but it’s
surprisingly toxic in this comment section. I expected better on HN, it’s
pretty disappointing.

~~~
dang
People on each side are downvoting the other side. I changed that in a few
cases, but I'm also not seeing a lot of fine comments here that are downvoted.
It's mostly flamewar stuff that breaks the site guidelines:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html](https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html).

If you have links to other examples, I'd appreciate them. You can always send
them to hn@ycombinator.com.

