
The meaning of life in a world without work - shubhamjain
https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/may/08/virtual-reality-religion-robots-sapiens-book
======
babyrainbow
The meaning of life or its purpose is to do things that one like to do...There
is absolutely nothing more to it...

The triumph of the modern society is that it could twist people's likes to
suit its own purpose, so in the end people are left exhausted after pursuing
their "likes" but still left unhappy, because their likes are not really their
likes, and has been artificially projected on to them by other agents..

~~~
golergka
> their likes are not really their likes, and has been artificially projected

Can you please provide a clear distinction between a though or an idea that
has been "artificially projected" vs "their own"?

~~~
justifier
i'll give it a go..

i work in a cafe, shilling high margin coffee at minimum wage in a city whose
minimum is below the poverty line for cafe owners who own multiple homes along
the California coast

I(i) asked a co-worker(c) if thae do anything in thaer free time and thae
explained how thae get home from work and are so exhausted thae just like to
relax and watch some TV

I responded, 'yeah, I wish i could exhaust myself doing something I liked,
then relax to some entertainment'

Thaer response, 'nah dude, I like working here'

To which I asked, 'would you do it for free?'

(c) 'O hell no'

(i) 'What would you do for free?'

(c) 'Don't know.. I love to cook'

(i) 'Then you should be able to cook what you want, when you want, for who you
want'

(c) 'ha! Sure man, if you say so.. all I'm saying is I like working here'

------
mcherm
What kind of screwed up religion did this author grow up in? Someplace where
people were judged just on the number of times they prayed?

In the religions I see, activities like prayer are largely for the benefit of
the participant (strengthening their connection with God and helping bring
them reassurance and guidance) not to "keep score". And all the religions I
know of have some obligation to their members to invest time, money, and care
into aiding the poor and the needy, which had a direct positive effect on the
world.

And I say these things _despite_ the fact that I am an atheist.

~~~
mannigfaltig
> invest time, money, and care into aiding the poor and the needy

Actually most organized religions are criminally inefficient at this. As an
example the Catholic Church in Germany earns about 6 billion euros per year,
_completely_ tax-exempt. 50% of that actually comes from tax money. Now, if
you look at social institutions which claim to be funded by the church, it is
usually only 5-40% (rather the lower end) that the Catholic church contributes
and the rest comes from insurance companies, contributions by the
patients/care receivers and, again, from taxes. The church does not contribute
to religious education at all and there also is no freedom of strike in the
German Catholic church and many similarly miserable exception clauses.

~~~
klipt
Is the German Catholic church required to spend German donations in Germany,
or can they e.g. reroute them to impoverished churches in South America?

That could explain some of the inflow/outflow discrepancy if you only look at
Germany (one of the wealthiest countries in the world)

------
panic
The spectrum of human experience (and the meaning people find in it) can't be
reduced to a concept like "gaining points". What about art, conversation,
watching TV, taking care of family members, romance, sex, raising children,
playing sports, traveling, dancing, or cooking? What about reading, writing,
listening to music, making music, knitting, or playing with our pets? People
have been finding meaning outside of work for thousands of years.

~~~
avaer
Thought experiment: under the premise that a human brain can theoretically be
simulated by a beefy Turing machine (not a foregone conclusion to be sure),
then wouldn't it follow that human experience can indeed be reduced to a
concept like "gaining points"?

~~~
adrianN
For suitably defined "points", anything can be reduced to the concept of
"gaining points". That doesn't imply that this is an interesting or useful
reduction.

------
agumonkey
I thought about it for long. I used to believe life without work was a goal,
but I've revised the idea since.

I think the problem is what we today call work. IMO working comes from helping
the group you live with, and it's not just work it's teamwork with the shared
pleasure of partnering to insure survival. Ideally it's a lot more meaningful,
you care about others, they care about you, you know why you do things it's a
nice emotional flow.

Today, everything is cut into pieces and decoupled, we work for our economy,
which is an abstract entity that doesn't even really bring back the energy
into you.

We do like work, we all do, we all love to craft, whether it's clothes,
furnitures, devices, landscaping, treehouses, visual arts, musical arts ... as
we love to share and learn.

It's the disembodiment of it that makes it a pain.

In a society without hard requirement for work, we'd probably enjoy leisure
for a while and then seek new ventures to explore. A form of soft competition
would probably emerge too. Which is always "nice" since it tickles a lot of
our emotions. And ventures + competition seems a lot like business.

~~~
dasmoth
_it 's not just work it's teamwork_

That's clearly where many people find satisfaction, but when contemplating the
future of work, please _please_ don't overgeneralise. There's always been a
group who find their satisfaction in (to a greater or lesser extent) "self-
sufficiency". For me, the constant refrain of "team" is exactly the thing that
makes the contemporary workplace taxing.

~~~
agumonkey
Sure, I didn't think about this much. One question: have you never found a
pleasurable collaboration ? Let's say I'm a bit like you, and often had issues
in workplace and was way more efficient when alone after colleagues were gone.
I also fondly remember the best moments of college to be peer programming. We
were sweating like musicians at a concert, a never ending relay of ideas and
problems.

Back to the question, maybe an hybrid structure where everyone can follow its
own ideas as independantly as he needs to but can also gather around to share
once in a while. (sounds like research conferences :)

~~~
dasmoth
Yes, I've enjoyed collaboration -- but almost always when it's reasonably
coarse-grained, i.e. split a problem up then go [at least] several days
without constant re-synchronization.

But still think the biggest satisfaction for me comes from self-sufficiency.

~~~
agumonkey
Note that I'm into frugal/minimal self sufficiency quite a bit too. My brain
enjoys having a clear and generic view on things, oherwise I often feel
distressed by relying on trust and obscurity.

------
nevster
Slightly off-topic - I always find it a bit sad when people say things like
"Christians go through life trying to gain points... If by the end of your
life you gain enough points, then after you die you go to the next level of
the game (aka heaven)".

It shows the author has never actually heard the gospel (ie the good news) of
Christianity - that you _don 't_ need to do that! That's why it's good news.

~~~
FullMtlAlcoholc
> It shows the author has never actually heard the gospel (ie the good news)
> of Christianity - that you don't need to do that! That's why it's good news.

Eh, that's just one view. Christianity also sold indulgences as insurance
(sometimes preemptively)

I wish more people tried to gain a high score instead of entering a cheat code
right before death

~~~
mercer
I'm pretty sure most Christians believe God is all-knowing enough to be able
to detect cheating.

~~~
FullMtlAlcoholc
As I understand it, if one accepts Jesus into his/her heart and as lord and
savior, that is, according to the good news of the gospel, all that is
required, as long as their heart is pure and they truly repent. I may be
mistaken. I only went to Catholic school for 12 years so what do I know?

~~~
mercer
Yes, pretty much. There are probably quite a number of exceptions, for example
denominations that believe in predestination (although I don't know much about
that).

I guess my point was that the way I see it, if someone is truly repentant,
they're not cheating. On the other hand, if you live your life in an 'evil'
way with the idea that you can just speak the magic words on your deathbed, it
wouldn't be truly repentant.

(I have no doubt that there are also groups that believe it's all about the
magic words, but I suspect those are pretty rare.)

------
Mediterraneo10
Comparing the United States and the Nordic countries as speculation about
“basic income” gradually heats up, I could see it working for the latter but
being a disaster for the former. The Nordic countries have a strong tradition
of publicly funding community centres were the jobless can still go out and do
wholesome things. Libraries and clubhouses are well-sustained and many small
locales have an orchestra or theatre. Plus, with alcohol sales being a state
monopoly, people are discouraged from drinking themselves into oblivion
(though some subset of people will do their best anyway).

Meanwhile, in the United States where the state doesn’t always provision such
places, and even churches have been losing their role as an analogue, people
might be relatively susceptible to destructive behaviours. Perhaps the heroin
and meth epidemics in “flyover country” are a harbinger of this: many of the
victims aren’t exactly in danger of starving – existing welfare covers their
needs about as well as a basic income would – but what else is there to do
with their time?

~~~
Xoros
My father and I are arguing around such questions when I try to show him that
BI is inevitable. He thinks that when people don't have to work anymore due to
BI, they'll get bored pretty quick.

Your point is they (some) might start drug.

His point is that people will go back to their primary animal purpose :
reproduction. And that the world population will start rising dangerously
fast.

I guess if they're not plugged in any virtual world as described in this
article, there is a risk.

------
accordionclown
this idea that people are "useless" if they can't be employed by a soul-
sucking corporation to make money for it is patently offensive.

~~~
papapra
He means not important for the political and economical system, not literary
useless.

~~~
panic
What about someone who leaves work to raise their child? Just because they
aren't making money doesn't mean their work is unimportant.

~~~
laichzeit0
But why are they raising a child? What is the "purpose" of that child? To be
nurtured to the point where it can breed and create a child who itself needs
to be nurtured to the point where it can breed and create a child who
itself...

~~~
nf05papsjfVbc
This is indeed the biological imperative bestowed upon us by our genes (and
similarly for almost all the other species).

------
papapra
One line that stuck out for me: "To the best of our scientific knowledge,
human life has no meaning."

Maybe the meaning of life should be to improve our scientific knowledge. By
understanding more deeply the nature, the universe that we live in and how the
brain works, we could answer better this question.

~~~
Kholo
There is a good Micheal Chricton interview somewhere out there where he says
meaning is just a post facto story we learn to cook up over time. You ask a 5
year old WHY they want a particular thing and all you will get is BECAUSE.
Over time that 5 year old realizes he better come up with a good story people
want to hear cause everyone keeps bringing up this WHY question for every
other action he takes. There is no why there is just the fact that you want
chocolate ice cream right now or you want to climb that mountain or save the
world. The why part is just a story you need when others look at you
quizzically.

~~~
majewsky
So the meaning of life is to do those things as often as possible that hit the
metaphorical reward button in the brain as hard as possible? :)

~~~
Kholo
Find the things that are in your nature. Do it to the best of your ability.
That's how things like the Taj Mahal get built. It's not just about instant
gratification.

------
unabridged
"By 2050 a new class of people might emerge – the useless class. People who
are not just unemployed, but unemployable"

This class is already beginning to exist right now. In 30 years it might be
half the population.

~~~
adrianN
That class always existed. It just used to be limited to the old, crippled and
mentally ill.

~~~
zxcmx
Careful, without going all "pc brigade" on you, none of those things make a
person "useless".

~~~
adrianN
It does for the definition of "useless" that the article uses: not employable.

~~~
zxcmx
If you believe a person being old, "crippled" (I suppose you mean living with
a physical disability) or living with a mental illness means they are
unemployable then not only are you wrong, you could easily create a bunch of
legal trouble if you are involved in hiring decisions.

Also, if you genuinely have never worked with anyone in the classes you
listed, I personally think you're missing out on some valuable perspectives.

------
marchenko
>No natural law requires the repetition of magical formulas, and no natural
law forbids homosexuality or eating pork<

One might consider the natural law to be selection on relative fitness:
reinforcing connections to allies, producing descendants, and avoiding
premature death via trichinosis, for example. Societies which encourage these
behaviours (or which strictly regulate who may specialize in genetic v memetic
reproduction, and how) may gain an advantage over their competitors to
propagate genes and memes. The glib treatment of religion in this piece, and
other short pieces by this author,ellides a lot of interesting discussion
about the intersection of social and 'natural' law, and its precriptivist v
descriptivist components.

I'm not convinced by the description of the inducible teenage otaku. Over the
medium term, some will feel compelled to perform activities that garner
attention and praise from potential mating partners. Over the long term, the
otaku are likely to be overtaken by persons who more strongly feel such a
compulsion, and who gain mating opportunities as a result. The scenario he
proposes requires widespread buy-in by both genders to avoid a selective
differential (in the absence of a huge disruption to our current reproductive
arrangements).

------
js8
"What is a religion if not a big virtual reality game played by millions of
people together?"

If only the flamewars about which reality game is better weren't so violent..

------
crispweed
Question: What is the meaning of life? Answer: Why are you asking?

------
Nomentatus
I'm less susceptible to the lure of sports than most, but I love that sports
exist, since they're proof that human beings can create meaning out of thin
air quite efficiently, thank you very much - existential dilemma solved.
Perhaps there's a way to tie ordinary people's activities into ways to
advantage their favorite teams (including in esports), and expand the reach of
that conjured significance?

------
justifier
> by 2050 a new class of people might emerge – the useless class. People who
> are not just unemployed, but unemployable.

We, I am one, already exist

Side note.. the tagline from a favorite movie of mine: withnail and i;

> Two unemployed and unemployable actors mistakenly vacation in the English
> countryside

[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Withnail_and_I](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Withnail_and_I)

------
IshKebab
Kind of interesting. I like his 'useless class', but to call religion a group
virtual reality game is a huge stretch. By which I mean... it's just not.

------
elialbert
maybe virtual reality games of the future will be a valuable source of random
numbers? also currency liquidity? I think they will be more and more useful to
multiple aspects of life, and not just to the people playing them.

------
m15i
I posit the meaning of life is to work toward improving the health of humans
and our planet.

~~~
avaer
Except the article is all about a future in which this might very well be a
senseless pursuit -- in which the technology keeps things healthier better
than we ourselves could.

In which case the position you've forwarded is in trouble.

~~~
ASlave2Gravity
Not really. If anything, the metaphorical dog has caught its tail. Maybe you
can retire in peace? Whatever that means. Or maybe the goal posts start
shifting on the definition of 'health'.

~~~
Cono52
I'd say humans years from now, as we do to the past, will explain how
unhealthy we all were and how many avocados we all ate. so ye the definition
must be moving

------
Melchizedek
If religion is a "virtual reality game" then it is one with very real world
effects. For instance, only religious people reproduce - the rest have sub
replacement level birth rates.

Though I suppose one could regard liberalism and its sub-ideologies (feminism,
diversity-ism, etc.) as virtual reality games as well, with the real world
effect of not having children.

~~~
majewsky
> only religious people reproduce

The totality of that statement is absurd. I've seen plenty of non-religious
people reproduce.

Also, if we're considering the lesser argument of "religious people reproduce
more than non-religious people", then by that logic the people of Niger are
(on average) 4 times more religious than US americans.

Source:
[https://ourworldindata.org/fertility/](https://ourworldindata.org/fertility/)
(I'm looking at the curve from 2005 in the first chart.)

