

Nest - The Learning Thermostat - erohead
http://www.nest.com/

======
brk
This is interesting. I've been involved in home automation for about 15 years
now, and HVAC controls are one of the top things to control in most systens.

Occupancy sensing is also extremely difficult to do passively in any kind of
reliable scenario, especially when your occupancy sensor is limited to a
single location in the house.

I've frequently seen two broad categories around regulating HVAC systems: 1)
People keep a fairly regular schedule, and a standard 7-day programmable
thermostat works sufficiently.

2) People keep a very non-regular schedule, and a standard programmable
thermostat doesn't work, nor is there any inferable pattern to their home/away
schedule.

In case #2, it is usually more beneficial to get home/away status from
something with a more direct output eg: a burglar alarm system, vehicle
presence detectors in the garage (photobeams), status of lights, etc.

I'll be very curious to see what the real-world reactions are to the Nest
thermostat. If they can come up with some truly creative solutions it could be
a really cool device.

~~~
iramiller
Why not setup a system that detects the presence of your Bluetooth phone?
Perhaps even look for your phone on the wireless network if a sensitive
detector is not sufficient?

It would not be a stretch at that point to have a simple website served from
the device that let you see the history and choose some basic night/day
setback points.

It takes some time to raise/lower the temperature of the house depending on
the outside temperature so learning the rate at which the house warms/cools is
required to reach the desired set point at the requested time. Including the
local weather forecast as a sensor and being able to see a graph of temps and
system demand cycles would be really nice.

~~~
ShabbyDoo
I would be willing to carry something-er-other in my wallet which would alert
my home automation system (which I don't have) to my presence/location in my
home. I usually leave my wallet in our bedroom when sleeping, so it would
still be accurate at night. My wife might be willing to wear a small ring or
something like that, but it would be a harder sell.

~~~
iramiller
The benefits to the phone, you already have it and keeping it charged and in
general not forgetting it at home are more or less taken care of.

If I were considering options for additional units to purchase for determining
occupancy (perhaps the kids do not have cellphones yet) then a small zigbee
type mesh sensor would be ideal. This type of solution would give many options
for those with zone based heating and cooling and would lend itself to even
more pretty visualizations.

Edit: Getting a post right the first time from a phone is harder than it
should be.

------
jrockway
Dear people trying to sell me stuff:

Please put something on your website that I can read. I do not want to watch a
video, and that's all you have, so now I will never learn about your product.

~~~
rapind
Dear people trying to sell me stuff:

Please don't put a ream of text on your landing page that I have to read in
order to learn about your product. I'm a visual person, and the web has not
been a text-only medium for quite some time now. Something like a video,
relevant pictures, and big bold text will do just fine thanks.

I'm not trying to play devil's advocate here. This is actually what I prefer,
and I think they did a good job.

~~~
fluidcruft
I think your zeal for snark has lead you astray.

I understand what you're saying--nobody wants to land on a stuffy wall of
text. But in this case, there's nothing to find but the window dressing. I'm
fine clicking on a "find out more" link that takes me to more detail. But
that's missing here entirely.

~~~
rapind
No, I truly didn't have an issue with the usability of their landing page.
There's a clear link to more information in the CTA area (which is a page with
video and a breakdown of features). There's also a clear call to action "pre-
order" button. Then 3 more links with more info above the fold.

Then if you end up with the _living-with-nest_ page you get a slideshow, video
link, clear links to more info, a step by step slick UI describing it, etc.

I'm pretty impressed with the balance of information and usability. If I had
to nitpick one thing it would be that the "Meet the Nest Learning Thermostat"
link could be a little more obvious (being next to a button hides the fact
that it's a link).

------
bteitelb
Pure genius! Just one thing, anyone upgrading from an old mercury switch
thermostat will be left with a mercury waste disposal problem. Properly
disposing of these can be a real hassle and some not-so-environmentally
responsible customers are likely to just chuck them in the trash. Nest could
raise the bar of their environmental responsibility another notch by including
a postage-paid mailer and some bubble wrap to return your old thermostat to
them for proper disposal.

------
asmithmd1
Compare this to the WiFi thermostat that I previously thought was cool:

<http://www.radiothermostat.com/filtrete/>

In addition to being a touch screen it has hard buttons labeled: PROG, MENU,
MODE, FAN, and SAVE ENERGY

It is a total disaster. When I went away for vacation this summer I wanted to
turn off the daily program and hold at a max of 85. Instead I put it into
winter hold mode and it maintained a chilly 62 for the entire week I was away.
The WiFi link failed the first day I was away for some reason and the iPhone
app happily reported the last temperature it had received as current so I had
no hint there was any trouble.

~~~
WalterBright
Any ui with a "mode" button is inevitably a disaster.

~~~
jarek
Meet my alarm clock, 12 years and going strong.

Perhaps I should upgrade to something with a touchscreen and wifi.

~~~
WalterBright
I've thrown away many watches and clocks with 'mode' buttons after losing its
instruction manual.

~~~
jarek
I'm pretty sure my alarm clock's manual is on another continent.

Then again, it doesn't take me a manual to figure out the "mode" button cycles
between showing seconds, day of the week, time in both current and configured
secondary time zone, and time and date in secondary time zone. I'm sure it
could be made much more user friendly, material efficient, durable, and
affordable with a touchscreen.

------
div
Curious about how many other cool projects / companies can come out of that
line of thought:

"Here's a plain everyday thing that everyone wants to ignore, let's make it a
cherished item"

~~~
palish
The Learning Toilet.

~~~
Elepsis
You laugh, but TOTO is a hugely successful corporation that's spent millions
on toilet R&D. If this bathroom doesn't fall into "object of day to day use
made into a cherished item" I don't know what does:
<http://www.totousa.com/Neorest/NeorestSuite.aspx>

~~~
krobertson
Nearly shit myself when I saw the price tag on some of those! Looks nice, but
damn. A $250 thermostat is fairly reasonable, but a $5k toilet is way outside
the WAF (Wife Approval Factor).

~~~
jrockway
I think most people get that as a line item on their $450,000 house.

------
brudgers
Suffers from HGTV syndrome at $249.

It isn't going to change the world or revolutionize home automation it's just
going to be another "subzero" or "commercial range" as seen on Househunters:
Tahoe.

The issue with programmable thermostats is that they are not about temperature
but comfort, and comfort is affected by what you have been doing and what you
are wearing than a few degrees of setting on the thermostat.

It's the exceptions that make programmable thermostats problematic - the day
you get home early from work and the house is 82 F and high humidity in July,
or when you are home with the flu and the heat is off...neither is worth $10 a
month of possible savings.

We have a non-programmable digital thermostat. It simply has a button with a
"$" which bumps the temperature a few degrees toward energy savings based on a
user setting.

[[http://trane.com/Residential/Products/Thermostats/Non-
Progra...](http://trane.com/Residential/Products/Thermostats/Non-Programmable-
Thermostats#)]

The bulk of our energy savings since the install probably comes from the fact
that the temperature is set digitally rather than with an analog resister - so
we tend to adjust the temperature more conservatively and less often.

~~~
Splines
Yeah, $249 is way too much. I'd be pressed to spend more than $30 on a
thermostat when the one I have works good enough. Programming my current one
is like pulling teeth, but I only do it once a year or so (if that).

I keep it low and don't have A/C. If I'm hot I'll change into shorts, and if
I'm cold I'll put on a sweater.

------
algoshift
Ridiculous.

Depending on where you live you can save more money by simply using a good
size fan blowing cold air into the house at night during the summer. We did
just that this summer and did not have to use the air conditioner at all, even
during days where daytime temperatures reached well over 100 degrees. On some
nights we could get the house down to 65 degrees overnight.

The $250 fan paid for itself in less than a month! Total cost of running it 6
to 8 hours per day was less than $10 for the month.

This was an experiment to determine whether or not a whole house fan would be
a worthwhile investment for next year. Obviously, it is.

Next on the list is converting the A/C and heating system to what's known as a
"zone" system. Why heat or cool several thousand square feet of a home when
you only need one or a few rooms to stay warm or cold?

Next would be what I would call "intelligent flow" management. This is of
particular value if you live in a two story home. How is a single thermostat
on a wall in the family room downstairs going to make decisions about what is
best for heating or cooling the upstairs bedroom? Well, it can't.

What you can do is have sensors in every single room as well as a way to pump
air to and from various locations. Cold air will accumulate downstairs. Hot
air upstairs. When the downstairs is comfortable in the winter the upstairs is
boiling hot. By using this "intelligent flow" concept the system would simply
look for suitable sources of what it needs, say, hot air, and choose to use
the least costly source before moving on to a more expensive solution.

If the upstairs has three really hot rooms and only one room is occupied, you
can pump that hot air back downstairs rather than engaging the furnace. If the
sun is keeping the solar collectors nice and hot, use that instead of burning
fuel.

Following that is some combination of geothermal and solar assist. A simple
$20 microprocessor board with some relays and a few sensors can easily manage
a set of valves to select a heat source or sink that is more energy efficient
than using a compressor or a furnace.

Granted, some of the above would cost far more than a $250 gadget to
implement. However, it should be obvious that they would more than pay for
themselves in relatively short order, particularly the first couple of
options.

The greater point, I think, is that home energy efficiency is a much larger
problem that cannot be addressed in an meaningful manner with a wifi-enabled
gadget on a wall, no matter how cool it might look.

The good news is that, if we take a serious look at how we build our homes and
change the approach the savings can be absolutely monumental.

~~~
nitrogen
All of these things can be automated. Since the Nest is connected via Wifi and
Zigbee, a future firmware upgrade (or an external controller) could add
support for a Zigbee-connected fan controller. If the outside temperature is
in the direction of the target temperature, turn on the fan.

It sounds like you're in a desert-like area with wide temperature swings. The
learning system when integrated with your zone system could figure out how
cold you're willing to get at night to store cold air for the day, or even use
unoccupied rooms to store very cold air to be released into the house
throughout the day.

I agree that a thermostat alone isn't enough to save significant amounts of
energy, but this does have the potential to get get some smart technology into
more homes, where it can be expanded later to include everything you describe.

~~~
algoshift
The "Nest" is simply the wrong approach. By itself it is nearly worthless (my
not-so-humble opinion) for anyone but the most technologically incompetent
thermostat users out there. And even then, you'd have to wonder. Where is the
data on how many people can't or don't program their thermostats?

Now, some people might buy it just because it looks cool on the wall, and
that's OK.

A real thermal management system for the home does not start with a high-
design thermostat on the wall. You need multiple types of sensors in every
room and multiple outdoor points.

You need to change the way airflow can be channeled around a home.

You might even need to change the paradigm and heat/cool objects that can
provide thermal inertia (like the floor or walls) rather than just air.

You need to be able to selectively inject other heat sources or sinks into the
system.

You need solar thermal panels and geothermal heat exchange system in the
ground.

As far as control, a very simple embedded PC board running embedded Linux
would be the "lazy" way to build it. It would actually be overkill, but
there's an argument to be made for the COGS aspect of it.

Any number of relatively low cost embedded boards running very simple embedded
software could monitor the sensor array, make decisions and activate valves,
fans, etc. as needed.

I guess what I am saying is that you really can't fix the problem without
engaging in a fundamental pivot from what we've been doing to thermally manage
homes for the last, say, 100 years.

Having said that, it is a lot easier to sell a cool looking $250 gadget than
asking someone to spend $5,000 to modify their home. Even though the gadget is
very likely to not do much and the more extensive home modification is almost
guaranteed to save the home owner thousands of dollars per year.

Talk about an opportunity for government stimulus!

~~~
BrandonM
> Having said that, it is a lot easier to sell a cool looking $250 gadget than
> asking someone to spend $5,000 to modify their home.

I think a little creativity in the payment model could help this problem a
lot. The whole point of the system is to guarantee a decrease in the cost of
heating and cooling, right? Doing some statistical analysis, it should be
possible to estimate how much your customers will save. Tell them you'll pay
their bills for them for the next X years. Charge them 90% of their current
costs, pay the actual bills yourself, and keep the rest to pay for your
system. After 3 years (or whatever statistically works out to be a
comfortably-profitable threshold), they own the system free and clear and pay
their bills themselves, again. Obviously they can pay off the system in full
at any point, to allow for home sales and things.

~~~
algoshift
> I think a little creativity in the payment model could help this problem a
> lot.

100% agreed.

------
joezydeco
I'm impressed that Nest fixes and repaints the wall when you remove your old,
large rectangular thermostat.

~~~
pivo
I wondered about that too, but I see that it does come with a bracket that
covers the wall if you need it.

~~~
joezydeco
That plate looks way too small and square to cover up the holes left by most
rectangular thermostats. Look at 0:12 in the intro video, you can see the
mounting holes for the "old" device. Interesting that the holes are painted
white and have no screws in them.

------
csomar
Some readers complained about the content of the website, I think they are
missing the point.

Most people aren't HN minded, they are not really into how Nest learn about
your Energy needs. They just want simple and short content that explain in
basic words. Nice looking design will give them confidence that this thing
works really well.

The Website and the product are very well designed, and this is something that
is not quite common in such products. It's really well designed.

This page (<http://www.nest.com/living-with-nest/index.html>) explain in
simple and basic sentences how the device will work out for you. Pretty
simple, yet convincing.

Yes, it's missing the hacker part. But I doubt that people are interested in
that. I actually wish that more businesses invest in such designs.

------
pjin

      27. Hardware/software hybrids. Most hackers find hardware
      projects alarming. You have to deal with messy, expensive
      physical stuff. ...
      There's a lot of low-hanging fruit in hardware; you can
      often do dramatically new things by making comparatively
      small tweaks to existing stuff.
    

While Nest doesn't fall in the young startup category, Next is still a great
example of what you can do with hardware and software, where "the software
plays a very visible role." The design speaks for itself, but the magic is in
the software---meaning whatever tricks they pulled from AI, machine learning,
control theory or other fields.

Of course, "small tweaks" might not be the best way to describe it from the
hackers POV, but it makes sense if you're using this device.

------
bprater
Yes, please, more of these kinds of innovative products!

Edit: Ah, created by an ex-Apple guy behind iPod and iPhone. No wonder it
looks so damn slick.

TC link: [http://techcrunch.com/2011/10/24/ipod-godfather-tony-
fadell-...](http://techcrunch.com/2011/10/24/ipod-godfather-tony-fadell-
finally-reveals-his-new-product-a-thermostat-no-really/)

~~~
mhb
_Ah, created by an ex-Apple guy behind iPod and iPhone. No wonder it looks so
damn slick._

And costs $249.

~~~
wanderful
Consumers have shown that they are willing to pay a premium for a well
designed user experience. Problem is, Apple doesn't have much competition.

------
quonn
If one wants to build stuff like that -- I wonder - how do you do the low-tech
stuff (the hardware that is not electronics but the plastics/aluminium shell,
glass, etc.)? What skills/tools are required to actually create that? How do
you get started if you can't afford mass-production at the beginning?

~~~
HeyLaughingBoy
Simple: you design your electronics to fit existing cases that can be
purchased off the shelf. Here's one of my favorite vendors:
<http://www.polycase.com>

There are many, many vendors of plastic and metal electronics enclosures. Many
of them will customize them for you with printing, cutouts for displays, etc.
I know Polycase will do so very cheaply.

~~~
HeyLaughingBoy
Replying to my own post because I can't edit it.

If you have a specific application in mind, you can contact me if you like. I
have used a bunch of enclosure types and I might be able to make a suggestion.

------
delinka
As long as 'comfort' includes monitoring humidity and adjusting temperature
accordingly, I'm in. Did anyone notice if Nest does this?

~~~
adolph
Yep, at a minimum it claims to have a humidity meter.

------
zhyder
Looks nifty. Some feature requests:

1\. Should get feedback for actual energy consumption from the meter.

2\. Should allow installation of extra sensors that are wirelessly connected
to the main unit, in case the main unit is far from the couch/bed.

~~~
ojilles
For 2. this is where the iphone/mobile/tablet apps come in I guess.

I was thinking it would be great to have an extra sensor or two that would
help detecting the auto away.

------
savrajsingh
Here's a quick list of some other folks taking a swing at the Internet-enabled
thermostat space: EnergyHub, EcoFactor, Proliphix, EcoBee, Inthrma, Suntulit,
and GE's "nucleus."

Nest clearly has some cool differentiating features like "time to temp" and
some interesting learning / AI technology. If it delivers on claims of 20%
energy savings and they can bring the price down (that must be the plan, I'm
sure) I can imagine it being broadly adopted. The challenge with thermostats
is there are a few different wiring standards, so you often do need a third
party to help you, which introduces a pretty big barrier to adoption. They
also seem to have a strategy to lower that barrier, which is cool.

As someone who's been in the energy space for over two years now, I'm excited
that Nest is bringing some much needed consumer attention our way, and I'm
excited to try Nest!

~~~
ja2ke
They have a "is your thermostat Nest compatible" guide and video that isnt too
unfriendly. <http://store.nest.com/#compatibility>

------
cjoh
Here's what I don't get -- why have the display to begin with? Why can't the
whole thing be programmable via API/Web/Mobile App/Watch/Whatever.

Ideally that's what I'd like -- some kind of intelligent device that lives
inside of my house that connects to my boiler and AC unit, as well as other
major appliances if possible and provides an open API for people to build on
top of, and can connect to my router.

If someone wants to make a thermostat that looks like Nest, then, it could be
something that you just stick to the wall but requires no direct wiring. But
it also means that I never need to buy a new thermostat: if I get tired of the
Nest, I can switch it like I can any other app. Or just keep it controlled
from my phone or tablet or the web.

~~~
ShabbyDoo
"why have the display to begin with?"

My guess is that many consumers have replaced thermostats before and have
found the process fairly painless. Or, maybe they understand the idea of
replacing one dingus on the wall for another. The idea of cutting wires in
one's basement is much scarier. Your suggestion is quite rational but probably
hurts sales.

------
seasoup
This thing paired with Siri would be awesome.

"Siri, what's the temperature at home?"

"Home is currently at 65 degrees."

"Siri, set home to 75 degrees."

"Temperature set to 75 degrees, it will take 15 minutes to reach this
temperature."

~~~
jrockway
Computer, tell me a joke.

Knock knock.

Who's there?

Orange?

Orange who?

Orange you glad you bought a Power Macintosh?

Oh sorry, I was amused at how Apple is marketing early 90s technology as
amazing in 2011.

~~~
seasoup
Apple does well because it presents old technology in a way that is much
easier for the masses to grok and use. I don't know why this offends geeks.
I'm a geek and I love it when technology is presented in an easy to use way.

I hate TV remote controls, I know how to use them but I shouldn't have to have
5 of them and universal remotes out there are pretty much crap. I have one,
but the Tivo remote is so much more intuitive for that interface that we've
abandoned the universal all together. That's an example of an industry ripe
for someone with the design and tech chops to come in and fix and then
jrockway will be talking about how amused he is that fools are so excited by
this old technology. :)

------
jayfuerstenberg
I watched the video and was impressed by how well designed it is. If it
operates as demoed it could save a great deal of electricity.

Also I wouldn't be surprised if, like the iPod, it didn't come with a manual
because it's so easy to use.

------
Androsynth
I'm more impressed by the founding team (with KCB backing) than the product.
Can this be the company that finally gives us the smart home we've been
promised for decades? I can't imagine they intend to limit themselves to
thermostats.

~~~
jpadvo
I don't think they plan to. From their website:

"At Nest, what matters to us are homes and the people inside them. We’re
changing the way you think about your home and the way your home thinks."

------
jrnkntl
Why, why US only? Please tell me, it can't be because everything on this
device is hard-coded for Fahrenheit.

~~~
madflo
I would not worry too much about that. I think that they will be able to
handle the Fahrenheit/Celsius conversion.

~~~
jrnkntl
:) I wasn't serious about that bit, just wondering why.

~~~
duck
The same thing that kills a lot of cool things - regulations.

------
cantlin
I wonder if they'll provide an API. Are any companies in this space taking a
platform-oriented approach to their domestic gizmos? Someone needs to put my
home on the command line.

------
coob
I don't care for the 'learning' aspect, although I'm sure it's great.

My boiler has 19 buttons and 3 dials, I just don't have the time to understand
it. This I understand.

------
there
i've had an ecobee (<http://ecobee.com/>) thermostat for a few years and it's
little more than a way to bump the heat up while i'm lying in bed. i work from
my home so i can't do much with pre-programmed schedules, and i have a dog so
i can't let the place get super hot or cold if i'm gone during the day.

when it first debuted, they tried to charge a monthly fee for the website
(which is a key part of the product, though it can be adjusted from the
display itself). my brother works for an hvac company and was having trouble
selling any of them because of the monthly fee.

eventually they ditched the fee and the website is free for life, and now they
have an iphone and android app to easily see and adjust settings.

i setup a hack that watched my wireless router to see if my android phone was
connected, as a way to detect whether i was in the apartment or not and let
the temperature slide more.

[http://jcs.org/notaweblog/2011/08/30/an_ecobee_automation_ha...](http://jcs.org/notaweblog/2011/08/30/an_ecobee_automation_hack/)

~~~
dfc

      "i have a dog so i can't let the place get super
      hot or cold if i'm gone during the day."
    

You do realize that dogs used to live outside? I have a dog and he can play
for hours outside in 20 degree or 85 degree day. You are fooling yourself if
you think your dog can not handle indoor environmental temp swings from 50 -
85 degrees.

Do you always use your dog to justify things?

------
nitrogen
I like the design of the case. I wonder if there's any way to display custom
data on the screen, and how they're powering it (apart from the rechargeable
battery).

I've always said that in order to get home automation into more people's homes
it'll have to be "hidden" in something they already buy, like a TV or in this
case a thermostat. I'm doing an automation startup[0] that focuses on building
more of the behind-the-scenes technology for early adopters and eventual
integration into consumer products, but that technology eventually needs to be
packaged into something more consumer-friendly.

It looks like their presence sensing is actually motion sensing (the tech
specs list "activity" sensors). I'd like to combine this with a more detailed
presence sensor like the Kinect or Xtion Pro for more detailed control of
temperature, lighting, etc.

[0] Shameless plug: <http://www.nitrogenlogic.com/>

------
spot
here's their white-paper PDF: [http://assets-
www.nest.com/white_papers/efficiency-simulatio...](http://assets-
www.nest.com/white_papers/efficiency-simulation-white-paper.pdf)

"The auto-away feature is based on algorithms that interpret occupancy sensor
data and provide a confidence determination of whether or not the occupants
are away from the home. When the confidence level is high that occupants are
away, the autoEaway feature makes a decision to override the existing schedule
to save additional energy"

it has sensors for movement, temperature, humidity, and light.

------
brador
I'm guessing this will have premium pricing, in which case, are the people who
care about shaving a few $100 off their energy bill going to have the
forsight, disposable income and knowledge of installation to make the
purchase?

Cool looking product, but too many barriers to purchase for my liking.

~~~
iqster
Preorder price is 250. About 100 bucks more for professional installation. 25
extra for each additional terminal. It doesn't seem too bad ... I was
expecting 500 after watching the video.

My biggest concern is installation. I live in a rental, so I will have to
uninstall the Nest with me when I leave. They have a nifty video plus
compatibility checking app. Will try it when I get home tonight.

~~~
brador
I did not see the price. Looking at it now, I'd say it seems nice in relation
to the iPhone price point, but remember what this is. It's just a nicer
looking thermostat.

The learning functionality is next to useless for most as they're in and out
during the day/evening, so it needs constant changing just like a regular
thermostat regardless. Effectively, the patterns can't be learnt. My
thermostat is beside my front door. I enter my home, I set it, then again
before bed and in the morning again. There's not much to it and I wouldn't
cede control for $250+$100. $50, yeah. Maybe even $100 for a cool looking,
easy to install device. But not $250.

~~~
HeyLaughingBoy
Why not just use a programmable thermostat? They are down to around $20 these
days.

~~~
brador
I had a programmable in my last property. Didn't really use it much due to my
erratic schedule. If I was a 9-5 it would be super handy though.

------
ezy
Sorry, a simple digital thermometer with a digital push button up/down
temperature select is more than sufficient, and cheaper.

Home automation, in general, has a similar feeling to all those weird devices
you put in your microwave to make bacon. Buy a damn frying pan.

~~~
tomkarlo
Sufficient, but clearly not optimal. Temperature regulation requires time-
based cycles to minimize power use, a scenario that doesn't tend to be served
very well by a manually-controlled system.

For example, it generally makes sense to reduce heating use an hour or two
after bedtime, until an shortly before folks wake up - is someone going to
wake up to do that?

There's a lot of room here for simple innovations that will save huge amounts
of energy when spread out over thousands of homes. Think how much power is
saved by motion sensitive lights at offices now.

~~~
ezy
Ok, I can buy that my perspective is slightly different on these matters. I
see people who set their AC to 67 and their heat to 78 -- even with time
regulation this isn't going to save energy.

IMO, Blankets and socks are a fairly universal solution, and that coupled with
a few button presses saves an equal amount (maybe more[1]) of energy.

I think the main selling point is going to be geek lust and how pretty it is,
however. The energy savings is a loose justification for the consumer to spend
money on it.

[1] I wonder how much of the energy savings will be negated by people turning
up the temperature in lieu of dealing with a little inconvenience and minor
discomfort because they figure the t-stat will handle it.

~~~
tomkarlo
One place it could help is with the problem that most houses have - multiple
people playing with the thermostat. It could help find the compromise point
where everyone's happy enough that they stop fiddling.

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eps
Thermostat managed through a hosted web service? I'm sorry but this is
idiotic. Looks neat though.

~~~
earthboundkid
Hard to say. This is the sort of thing people have been talking about forever
("smart homes"), but maybe the timing is finally right.

Quick, does anyone use their iPad to "store recipes"?

~~~
egypturnash
Fuck yeah. It's called "googling for a recipe with it". I do this regularly.

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mark13
They should consider selling accessory units that plug into the wall and
monitor the temperature of a specific spot in the house, syncing with the
master control via wifi (instead of only reading temperature/motion in the one
place the thermostat is installed).

I'm thinking of a corner in our house that is always cold -- if it detects I'm
there, crank up the heat so it is comfortable _in that location_. When I
leave, do the same for the next spot, or revert back to the "master control"
unit. I'm not sure how much money this would save, but it would certainly be a
valuable feature I'd pay for, and it would knock the socks off what any normal
thermostat could do.

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Tichy
Could this have an API? Thinking about it, some neat things could be done. For
example, might it be possible to infer from electricity use if somebody is
home or not? Also all sorts of fancy remote control options could emerge
(Twitter is a must :-)

~~~
thomasjoulin
Their iPhone app should have geofencing (if it doesn't yet)

~~~
Tichy
If every member of the household has an iPhone, that is.

~~~
jarek
Pretty safe bet for households that buy this kind of thing.

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dolbz
I hope there's an override for auto-away. Imagine going away over Christmas
and your pipes freeze because there has been no heating at all... Not a
problem in California where this has been developed but a realistic problem in
much of the world.

~~~
stereo
I suppose it simply keeps the temperature above freezing even when you're
away, like most thermostats

~~~
_delirium
That's not sufficient for many home designs, though; you may need to keep the
interior temperature into the 40s or 50s to keep the pipes in the wall above
freezing, depending on the outside temperature and your house design. One
reason the default "away" temperature for many thermostats is actually pretty
high, like 55 or 60.

~~~
mturmon
True, and just "learning" your regular day-to-day habits would not necessarily
inform the system about an absolute lower bound on temperature.

I think the thermostat control problem is harder than I might have given it
credit for. Any time you have to learn in a nonstationary environment
(<http://mathworld.wolfram.com/NonstationaryTimeSeries.html>), nasty surprises
can happen. The future may not look like the past.

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conductrics
Not sure why the focusing on the learning alogs or the utility of the
thermostat - my guess is that company really isn't about the thermostat at
all. You can almost hear the founders/investors excitedly throwing around the
various buzz terms with this one: 'Big Data!' 'Data Exhaust!', 'DataScience!'
'Household Traffic Patterns!' 'Web cookie for the home!!!!' etc. Looks like a
cynical play at trying to become a BigData company by collecting household
energy consumption and traffic patterns and who knows what else. Doesn't seem
like it provides enough value to trade off being spied on in your home.

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protomyth
It would be worth the cash since my parents could actually read the
temperature. I do hope Apple adds Siri integration into apps, then my Mom
could just tell it what temperature she wanted.

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davidjhall
If this thermostat has activity sensors, how can it tell the difference
between a pet and a person? Not that I advocate freezing pets while I'm not
home, but they don't need a toasty 72.

~~~
qjz
I also wonder if it can tell the difference between a teenager and the person
who actually pays the energy bill.

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ShabbyDoo
Darn. I have a dual-fuel system (heat pump for spring/fall with natural gas
for winter), so I think I'm out-of-luck for now. My current thermostat has an
exterior temperature sensor and switches between modes when the outside temp
drops below a certain level. Heat pumps are energy efficient on mildly cold
days but don't work very well in the dead of winter. FYI, I live in Ohio.

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nicksergeant
Does anybody have any research to suggest that this would result in less
energy usage with a boiler (baseboard water heating)?

From what I understand, frequent fluctuations in temp settings with a boiler
result in more energy usage, as the boiler requires far more energy to go from
65° -> 68° as it does to maintain a steady 68°.

Thoughts?

~~~
asmithmd1
Thermal transfer is proportional to the difference in temperature between the
inside and outside of your house. For every bit of energy you put into
maintaining the difference some energy is lost to the atmosphere. If your
system is equipped with an aquastat that turns the circulator pump on only
after the water reaches a certain temperature then it is possible to waste
energy if the boiler runs for a short time and the water does not warm up
enough to start the circulator.

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adolph
I can't tell from the site if they have done away with the whole cool/heat
switch but it seems like they have, which is awesome.

~~~
brk
It is, _if_ they can truly intelligently control the modes.

In much of the US, we are in that time of year where it can be cold in the
morning and hot in the afternoon. A common thermostat on full auto mode will
be running the heat in the morning and the A/C in the afternoon. Most people
opt to set their thermostat for one mode or the other, usually forgoing the
A/C in the afternoon, knowing that it will soon cool back down naturally.

Full HVAC control is one of those things that is _really_ hard to get right
with just a mostly passive device like this.

~~~
brucehart
I noticed that the Nest asks you for your zip code. Maybe it uses the Wi-Fi
connection to pull weather information so it can make adjustments like this?

~~~
alirov
You're right, it does check the weather through the Wi-Fi connection:

"Nest uses its Wi-Fi connection to keep an eye on current weather conditions
and forecasts so it can understand how the outside temperature affects your
energy use."

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blahedo
I read the Wired article about this, and was loving it, and then: "Indeed, the
Nest will not only do its learning thing in your home, but also report data to
a web site."

Really? Does _every goddamn thing_ have to report my habits out to the
internet now? Wtf. (Too bad, because I love the idea. Maybe you can turn the
spying off.)

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seanos
Seems like a solution in search of a problem.

~~~
Maakuth
Well, probably most of us don't see their utility bills as a problem per se
but wouldn't mind 50% reduction. And Nest claims to deliver that. Certainly
that claim is to be taken with a grain of salt but I don't think that it's a
bad idea.

EDIT: No they don't actually claim that, my bad.

~~~
seanos
Assuming the learning algorithm is perfect and always gives the desired
temperature, then a saving of 50% means that your desired temperature pattern
is 50% cheaper than the temperature pattern you would program with a regular
thermostat. That could be true, or it could even be more expensive.

Also, it might be annoying to have a thermostat trying to second guess what
temperature you want through a "learning" algorithm, rather than the
deterministic temperature you have programmed or adjusted manually.

~~~
bgarbiak
If the house is cooling down while you are away - don't you need more energy
to warm it up again than you would use to just sustain the temperature? I'd
say that an 'intelligent' thermostat has greater chance to balance this right
than anyone could with a manual adjustments.

~~~
bbest86
No, I don't think so. Go to the extreme and think about leaving for a week or
a month - it is quite clearly more efficient to let it cool and then warm it
back up again. On a shorter time scale, your house will lose heat at a faster
rate when the temperature differential to the outside is higher, so letting
the house cool will reduce the rate of energy loss over the time period the
house is cooler. The amount of time you are able to leave the heating off
while the house cools will compensate for the higher load when you need to
heat it up again.

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thanithani
For those using Chrome on a Mac to view this link, dont. The site only shows
an egg and a testimonial.

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deepGem
This is way too cool. Wonder if the device can actually detect the number of
people in the room and adjust the temperature for that room accordingly. Not
sure how this will work in age old central heating systems which contain one
thermostat for a 10,000 sq ft building.

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gcv
This device looks great, but might not be usable in some municipalities. Some
building codes mandate that a thermostat must be individually programmable for
a different temperature for each of 7 days a week, and specify an energy-
saving min-max range.

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wmblaettler
Interesting. Their pre-order system went down from heavy traffic this
afternoon, and now I see a redirect to Best Buy for pre-orders. I wonder if a
quick deal was struck between Nest and Best Buy to get the pre-orders back
online quickly.

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kruhft
Wasn't one of John McCarthy's original AI papers about an intelligent
thermostat?

~~~
rgovostes
I thought of this too when I heard about it:

> In ten or twenty years Minneapolis-Honeywell, which makes many thermostats
> today, may try to sell you a really fancy home temperature control system.
> It will know the preferences of temperature and humidity of each member of
> the family and can detect who is in the room. When several are in the room
> it makes what it considers a compromise adjustment taking account who has
> most recently had to suffer having the room climate different from what he
> prefers. Perhaps Honeywell discovers that these compromises should be
> modified according to a social rank formula devised by its psychologists and
> determined by patterns of speech loudness. The brochure describing how the
> thing works is rather lengthy and the real dope is in a rather technical
> appendix in small print.

<http://www-formal.stanford.edu/jmc/little/little.html> (1983)

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icefox
Nitpicking: Does it annoy anyone else that the website always has a horizontal
scrollbar? Also not sure what about the layout confused me, but I didn't
realize that I could scroll down to find out information.

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thebandrews
From what I can tell the "learning" phase is just an extended version of
programming your thermostat. I'm curious how this is any different than a
traditional thermostat?

~~~
mcantor
As opposed to explicitly "programming" your thermostat, you just use it and it
programs itself.

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mrspandex
How much does this thing cost? The store seems to be down.

~~~
phuff
It looks like it's $249 per unit.

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jeffrese
I love it, sign me up.

------
Jayasimhan
“First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you
win.” - Gandhi

