
A physics master’s degree opens doors to myriad careers - digital55
https://physicstoday.scitation.org/doi/10.1063/PT.3.4180
======
oneepic
I've also heard the opposite, that it leads to absolutely nothing and you are
kind of treated like a PhD dropout, at least in the US. Just be careful, I
guess, and get plenty of advice from real people who took that path
(successfully or not).

Oh, and a bachelor's in engineering physics seems to lead to nothing as well.
Have had quite a few friends go to career fairs and every company rep lost
interest as soon as they heard the words "engineering physics". They just went
on to grad school in plain old physics since they had 0 other options besides
learning to code.

~~~
agentofoblivion
That hasn’t been my experience. I have M.S. in physics at a shitty school and
went into industry. (I didn’t fail anything, and actually had a 4.0 gpa, just
didn’t want to spend more time in school). Eventually switched from material
science to data science. Currently an ML research scientist at AWS. It’s been
a fun journey. No one gave a shit about what I did or didn’t do in college. It
might matter to HR people, which can be the resume gate keepers. But the
hiring managers and peers don’t care. In fact, if you polled them, I would
guess half would know my background is in physics, a third that I have a
masters, and 0 which school I went to.

~~~
Ragib_Zaman
I'm currently getting a Masters in CS (specialising in ML) after leaving a
pure math PhD. I'd love a research type job from anywhere, let alone Amazon,
but every job posting for roles with 'research' in the title says they require
a PhD. Was your success a case of simply applying anyway? I know they say to
apply anyway but it feels like a long shot to me. Do many of your peers have a
similar background to you?

~~~
agentofoblivion
My primary mechanism was reaching out to recruiters and people on LinkedIn
that already had the jobs I wanted. I found that just applying through the job
site almost never went anywhere. It comes down to a numbers game, so I would
sort your hypothetical list of jobs from "dream job" at the top to "I guess"
at the bottom, and then start applying from top down. You should absolutely
take job postings and required skills with a healthy grain of salt. These are
almost always generic, copy/paste artifacts.

An exception might be if you see "Publications in top-tiered journals" as a
requirement. Those positions likely actually target PhDs with relevant
publications. They might overlook a lack of a PhD if you're a recognized
expert in the field, of course. But I interpret this requirement as "we want
an academic", and there primary job is likely research and publishing papers.
A Research Scientist at AWS is not an academic, as someone at Google Brain
might be, but rather someone building applied ML solutions.

------
no_one_ever
Please please please do not pursue a PhD or MSc in Physics on the sole
expectation it will open a door to a career that you believe would otherwise
be closed. You will not enjoy it.

~~~
nikomen
So I assume it would acceptable to pursue a degree if you enjoy physics and
hope to use the knowledge and degree to advance your career. Are the job
prospects for advanced degrees in physics that poor?

~~~
plazmaphyujin
I would say yes. Pursue physics only because you love it. Unless you want to
go into Defense the job prospects are terrible. However, learning physics
teaches you how to learn anything and how to do it fast. This turns out to be
an invaluable skill for programming, so physicists make great programmers. You
just have to earn it on top of all the physics.

~~~
rongenre
Yeah it's very much like that with my math degree. Demonstrated ability to
torture myself with difficult concepts.

~~~
jackcosgrove
I think engineering degrees demonstrate an ability to torture oneself with
boring and routine concepts. A skill which is apparently more valuable in the
working world.

------
muvek
I have an MS in physics and I disagree with this. If you want opened doors, go
for software engineering. You have so many things you can do with software,
seriously.

I have finished my master's in November, and I have been looking for a job. I
have not been very lucky so far. I am looking for data-science related stuff.
If you have any suggestions, please, I am all ears. (I am in Europe)

There was a time when, if you had a degree in Physics, they'd throw money at
you. That is no longer true.

~~~
mjfl
why data science and not something where physics degrees confer more of a
comparative advantage? Something like telecommunications engineering or
something of that sort?

~~~
muvek
My MS was in astroparticle physics (applied). That means I am better suited
for data science than for engineering stuff.

Weirdly enough, if I knew optics but no coding I would be in a better place
than the one I am in right now, which is: I know (a little bit of) coding but
no optics.

~~~
MockObject
Applied?

~~~
muvek
Well, it's more experimental than applied, bad word I guess. It could've been
theorical, but it was experimental.

------
Y_Y
I didn't do my physics PhD expecting it would lead to a job. Which is good
because it hasn't.

~~~
robertAngst
I am very happy I choose to work on my own projects than peruse a PhD.

Anecdotes like yours from my peers were very helpful in making this decision.

Not to mention, both teachers seemed like they wanted me to pay to do their
work.

------
ShepherdKing
As someone who obtained their Master's in Physics, I have to agree with the
article. The breadth and depth of my scientific training has made me a much
more capable data scientist (and engineer) than most of my peers who went the
CS path. I only wished that I could have double majored in biology. I would
say that my study in physics has taught me how to better see the "bigger
picture" and to try to account for all possible outcomes in a given scenario.

~~~
stdbrouw
> As someone who obtained their Master's in Physics, I have to agree with the
> article. The breadth and depth of my scientific training has made me a much
> more capable data scientist (and engineer) than most of my peers who went
> the CS path.

Not knocking on you specifically, but I've seen this kind of overconfidence
before in physicists, mechanical engineers, mathematicians etc.: "programming
/ statistics / data science is so easy, of course I know what I'm doing and
will be up to speed right away." Their work is generally not bad, but not
particularly great either. I do think the scientific training and rigorous
education in these fields helps, but if it's not supplemented with a little
humility it makes for poor colleagues.

~~~
sidlls
It isn't overconfidence. The academic material these individuals study is
directly and specifically related to the work of a data scientist. Statistical
analysis is built in to any reasonably good physics curriculum starting with
undergrad lab courses and proceeding through statistical mechanics, quantum
physics and beyond.

~~~
SantalBlush
In your mind, do you think a physics degree or a statistics degree is better
suited to doing data analysis, and why?

~~~
JumpCrisscross
> _do you think a physics degree or a statistics degree is better suited to
> doing data analysis, and why?_

For finance, physics 100%. (The more experimental, the better.) When you're
forced to map your theories to reality, and deal with the divergence, you
develop an intuition for a certain set of problems. Those problems recur in
commercial data science.

~~~
SantalBlush
I'm not sure how this speaks to the superiority of physics over stats in this
regard.

------
noetic_techy
Not my experience and I have a Engineering-Physics degree, which is
essentially a full physics degree with additionaly courses gears towards
training us as systems engineers and luckily that's how I landed a job
afterwards. I tell all prospective physics majors to dual major in CS or EE or
some other engineering useful discipline if you truly want to do something
good. You have a much better chance of landing a job afterwards and gaining
the foothold you need to propel into what you really want to do. Most places
outside academia don't know what to do with you. Funny thing is, the people I
know with physics degrees end up being some of the best engineers and quickly
bubble to the top. HR types have a hard time seeing that potential if you
don't fit their criteria degree exactly.

~~~
nikk1
I'm a recent graduate with a BS in Engineering Physics (EP) as well. I chose
the field because I love mathematics and because of the "infinite career
possibilities" that the Physics department advertised (just like in this
article) which was actually very misleading. I had a really hard time getting
started right out of college (your description of HR's view of EP majors is
spot on) and started to pursue my Master's at the same University in EP. I
dropped out of my Master's program after about a year because I realized I
hated doing academic research. A lot of the courses that I took were also very
similar to my undergraduate courses... So I didn't feel like I was gaining any
added value from my MS.

Most of us graduates in EP either went to pursue graduate work or became
Systems Engineers. Now I'm working as a Systems Engineer really only because
it felt like the only alternative. I'm planning on getting my Master's in CS
so I can get myself on track to the career that I really want. I don't regret
studying physics - but I wish I had done a double major instead.

~~~
noetic_techy
Yup, this resonates with me. I hated academia and wanted to get out there and
do some real high level engineering work, so I took my BS in EP and left.
Luckily I had some decent programming skills and it helped me land my systems
engineering job doing simulation work. Yes I reversed engineered system in
order to understand how to simulate them which applies to my degree focus, but
without the software background I could never put theory into practice. Now
I'm a project engineer leading teams of other systems engineers, so it worked
out ok for me. If you are the more mathematically inclined theoretical type
rather than the build systems hand on type of physics major, you will have a
harder time. First thing I do when I go back to visit my Alma mater is dispell
their "infinite possibilities" myth.

------
throwaway2019Z
From my experience both interviewing and hiring, a physics degree absolutely
will not help you in tech. You will have more credibility than any non-STEM
graduate, but employers will constantly wonder if you've bridged the gap
created by your lack of a CS degree.

~~~
cjhanks
I guess my experience has been the opposite. On every software R&D team I have
been on, there has been about an even mix of computer science, physics, and
mathematics with a few sprinkles of data science from the biology fields.
Especially by year 5 or so - who can tell the difference between a computer
scientist that knows physics and a physicist who knows computer science?

The only skills a person needs to learn coding is the desire to learn coding
and the persistence to do it.

~~~
throwaway2019Z
This has been my experience within teams as well, but it was clear to me that
we were hired _in spite_ of our degrees rather than _because_ of them.

I do not regret my physics education, and I would encourage young people who
are passionate about the subject to pursue it. However, I think that they
should go in knowing that unless they intend to stay in
academia/research/defense, a physics degree is, at best, a signal of
intelligence, and, at worst, a signal of overspecialization in a disparate
field.

------
occamschainsaw
I don't agree with this article. I did my undergrad with a Physics & CS double
major. It was painful, 9 semesters of maximum allowed courseload. While people
seemed to be impressed, I always felt like an imposter, knowing less CS than
the CS students and less physics than the physics students. Couldn't maintain
a great GPA either. Applied to 8 PhD programs, got rejected by all of them.
Most of the CS companies also rejected me (a recruiter said I had too many
degrees (???)). I did end up working at a National Lab, which was an amazing
experience.

Side note: The American Physical Society(APS) publishes undergrad physics
employment data[0] that my peers and I used to look at to feel good about our
non-grad school prospects after BS. After my degree I realized it is biased at
best, misleading at worst.

Currently I am doing an interdisciplinary (read flexible) masters program in
computational science. It allows me to take both CS and physics grad classes
and do research in physics labs too. Now I plan on pursuing research in
machine learning applied to super big data hairy physics problems. I am gonna
apply to PhD programs again (fields are fuzzy: physics, CS, ML, data science).

Would I do it again? Hell yeah. Started out as physics and then CS seemed
interesting. Both gave me valuable skills: Good understanding of data
structures, HPC, prototyping is helpful with physics problems, and I am not
afraid of math in grad ML classes because of physics.

Would I recommend it to others? Not really unless you are extremely passionate
about both (took me about 2 years to feel that) or are a genius and confident
in your abilities (I am not). I am still anxious about the future, and where
will I fit. If you have a passing interest in physics, do CS with a physics
minor to satisfy that itch or pursue an interdisciplinary program[1] so you
are not stranded employment wise. Set on being a physicist? Take some CS
classes (data structures, simulation, numerical analysis, HPC, algorithms
etc.)

People of HN, if you have a similar background/work in a similar field, I
would love to pick your brain about your path and research/career options.

[0]
[https://www.aps.org/careers/statistics/index.cfm](https://www.aps.org/careers/statistics/index.cfm)
[1] [https://www.siam.org/Students-Education/Resources/For-
Underg...](https://www.siam.org/Students-Education/Resources/For-
Undergraduate-Students/Detail/graduate-and-undergraduate-programs-in-
computational-science)

~~~
mettamage
I didn't read the artidcle yet, but I experience the same issues.

Computer science + business minor as a bachelor

Psychology (honours) as 2nd bachelor

Game studies master

Computer science research master

My fields of interest: computer science, psychology and business.

For the rest, your comment is almost identical, to some extent even the math
parth (as psych. is quite statistics heavy compared to CS).

------
radres
Grad school is one of the biggest modern scams that convinces highly skilled
people to work for peanuts for years on end.

~~~
nikofeyn
it really is messed up. in addition, it creates a bunch of weird spots in the
job search space. for example, i have come across many jobs that i am more
than qualified for, but they ended up being "post-doctoral fellowships". so
they are jobs that i can't get because i don't have a ph.d. but even if i
could get them, i would take around a 50% pay cut. it doesn't make any sense
whatsoever! the only explanation is the post-doc thing being basically a
version of slavery for skilled and educated people.

------
andrewfromx
i like the story of the college grads with terrible undergraduate grades
applying for the masters program, and getting in! And then turning their life
around. After they graduate with a master's degree its like all their
undergraduate sins are erased.

~~~
metamet
After your first job out of college, your undergraduate sins are essentially
erased as well. The longer your career exists, the smaller the emphasis (and
value of) your undergraduate performance becomes.

------
uptownfunk
Came to check this to confirm my experience. I would hire an ex PhD physicist
as a data scientist only if they actually talk data science in an interview.
Even better if they have good work experience in the same field.

One thing that really irks me is this notion that PhDs in physics are so smart
just hire them and they can figure it out. Maybe that’s the case, but is it
something I’m willing to take a bet on? probably not at least until you’ve
learnt the field and ideally if you have experience.

That said my best friend in high school was one of the smartest people I know,
went on to do a PhD in physics and then took two years to find a job. I know
the struggle these guys go though because I spent a lot of time trying to help
the guy out. Thankfully he landed on his feet, but the sad truth is a lot of
these guys either just really love the field or think they’re going to be the
next Feynman, until they realize how competitive the physics world is for only
a few tenured spots.

The good news is if you’ve still got what it takes after a PhD or postdoc and
you have the time or determination you’ve definitely already proved you have
the horsepower, the work is then just converting that into something the real
world appreciates.

------
superqd
I have worked in the software world for 20 years, and started coding while in
grad school studying for my master's in astrophysics. I initially was building
websites on the side to make extra money, but then decided to go full time. My
physics background never seemed to matter to anyone. It neither seemed to help
or hurt, so long as I could do the work, they seemed content to believe I
could learn anything else I'd need to know. Which was true. I bought books on
various languages, patterns and computation theory (one of my favorite
textbooks).

Other than having co-workers find out I have a physics degree and thinking _I
'm_ the nerd as a result, there really hasn't been upside or downside to
having studied physics.

Though, I totally went into physics not for the career but because I really
wanted to learn physics.

------
stevenwoo
If one is thinking about trying to become H1-B, one should be extremely wary:
[https://www.mercurynews.com/2019/04/16/h-1b-more-advanced-
de...](https://www.mercurynews.com/2019/04/16/h-1b-more-advanced-degree-
holders-selected-in-this-years-lottery-feds-say/) obviously this could change
from Presidential administration to administration but they no longer permit
those with physics/E.E./math advanced degrees to have H1-B for software work.

~~~
romwell
What awful news!

Unbelievably stupid (for reasons hopefully clear to everyone here). Extremely
infuriating that someone would think that the people with these skills aren't
extremely valuable for suitable software jobs (...contrary to what the market
says).

Especially so in Silicon Valley, where so many software engineering jobs are
more on the side of scientific computing, and actually _require_ advanced
science degrees.

E.g.: my previous employer was an EDA firm; guess what: writing software for
litho mask optimization requires a solid knowledge of EM physics, chemistry
and math quite beyond what a typical MS in Comp. Sci. might give. (Everyone on
my team had a PhD, none a CompSci).

Then there's the whole academic pyramid aspect: there are way more PhD
students than academic jobs, and cutting off access to jobs for people getting
PhD's in the US is a good way to slowly kill science (which is an
international endeavor).

Out of all the stupid anti-immigration initiatives, this one is the most
outrageous.

Signed, a mathematics PhD working in software engineering.

------
jakeinspace
Does anybody have experience going from a CS/engineering undergrad to a
physics MSc? I graduated last year with a CE/EE degree (so, some relevant
background in mathematics and electromagnetism, not much quantum). I'm looking
at programs which would let me leverage CS/software skills to make up for my
lack of physics education, and of course I'm reading textbooks in my free time
to try to catch up a bit. I don't have any expectation that this would be
helpful to my career.

~~~
BenMorganIO
I have met a physicist at Perimeter Institute who went all the way to
Engineering at Master level and pivoted to Physics PhD. If he could do that,
I'm sure you can. I do not remember his name, just his face.

~~~
ConfusedDog
I know a person who can do that - Howard Wolowitz.

------
projectramo
Its just a strange thing to hear people say a physics masters is useful
because it demonstrates your capacity to learn the same material as a computer
science undergrad.

I certainly respect a physics degree for the same reason I respect a math
degree: it shows me that this person can work really, really hard for a long a
time.

If you're in physics or math you may know exactly what I mean, but if you're
outside: it is bonkers how hard they have to work.

------
raegis
Just get a masters in mathematics. If you end up teaching, there are way more
mathematics openings than physics openings. Usually there are 0 physics
openings.

------
BeetleB
In the US, a lot of Master's degrees in physics and mathematics are really
watered down. I was an engineering student, and had an MS in engineering, and
was pursuing a PhD in it as well. I dropped out of the PhD and got another MS
in physics as a "consolation degree" \- I basically had all the coursework
done as part of my PhD, so the credits just transferred over and I had a free
MS in physics. I almost got another MS in mathematics just for the heck of it
(took courses for fun).

Why do I say they are watered down degree? Because both the math and physics
Master's requirements allow you to use courses _that are required for their
Bachelor 's degree_! So the main undergrad analysis class could be used for a
Master's in mathematics (unless you had a math undergrad degree).

They structured it this way to try to get people from outside the discipline
(like me) into the MS program. I could get an "easier" MS in physics than a
physics student could (they could not double count their credits for the MS
degree).

It may be another reason the MS degree in these disciplines is looked down
upon.

------
dekhn
I knew a ton of Physics PhDs who went on to be very successful software
engineers. They were always sad they couldn't do physics because of either
lack of salary or lack of good job options, but they were often very good
quantitative engineers.

My PhD opened a lot of doors but it also taught me that I didn't want to be a
scientist.

------
elamje
This should be nuanced with the fact that a Master's degree in the US is much
different than Europe. Typically, in Europe, STEM fields do a "Masters" but
it's really equivalent to junior and senior level coursework in the US. This
was the case for me as an exchange CS student in Sweden at KTH, and it seemed
that all of my Euro friends that were getting masters in their respective
country just treat a Masters in STEM as a necessity and it didn't have the
same pedigree or difficulty that a top tier US masters would. This is no shot
at Euro schools, but something that was very clear to me and my American
exchange counterparts when we talked to our EU friends, which were all
engineers of some kind.

~~~
repsilat
For a countervailing viewpoint, I got a Masters in CS from Georgia Tech, and
it was just coursework at the level of my 3rd and 4th years of undergrad in
New Zealand. Bit of a let-down.

~~~
elamje
In person or online?

~~~
repsilat
Online. Could have something to do with it.

Some classes were very good, but on the whole I think of it mostly as a cheap
thumb on the H-1B scales. (Not true on the whole, though -- students of the
online program are statistically _far_ more likely to be American citizens
than their on-campus counterparts.)

~~~
elamje
I tend to think online programs, even from great schools like Georgia Tech or
John Hopkins, are definitely easier than on campus. Typically on campus will
attract students that did very well in undergrad and are on their way to a
PhD, where as online has no option to continue for a PhD.

~~~
barry-cotter
At least sixteen and possibly twenty students from GA Tech’s OMSCS have gone
on to Ph.D. programmes. The following 14 universities have OMSCS grads and CMU
admitted one.

National University of Singapore

MIT

UNSW

Florida International University

UBC

UC-Santa Cruz

Iowa State University

Tokyo Institute of Technology

University of Southern California

Virginia Commonwealth University

Auburn

Georgia Tech

University of New Hampshire

[https://www.reddit.com/r/OMSCS/comments/awvb03/omscs_phd/](https://www.reddit.com/r/OMSCS/comments/awvb03/omscs_phd/)

~~~
elamje
Not trying to discredit your evidence, but according to the GT OMSCS website,
there have been 8664 students in that program. 20/8664 is less than .25%.
Anyways, all I'm saying is that I'm confident that Online MSCS are not held to
the same pedigree or difficulty as their on campus counterparts.

~~~
zd123
But what is the basis for your confidence?

The vast majority of students are working alongside the degree and not looking
to go on to phd programs...

Imperial, Stanford, Columbia, Gatech, UIUC, Utexas Austin all offer online
degrees.

Being in one of these programs myself I can assure you that the standard is
rigorous. I attended a top university in the UK and the quality of education
is not any lower.

There are some universities that are absolutely frauds but that is not the
case for the universities listed above.

If you disagree go on the coursework pages and try and do the first problem
set then tell me it’s not as difficult.

------
Anon84
Case in point: an Ask HN from a few week ago about what people with Physics
backgrounds are currently working on

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19500151](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19500151)

------
loblollyboy
ITT: a bunch of people with engineering physics or masters’ of physics who are
either doing really well or not so well and ascribing that to their degree.
I’m a loser because I have anxiety and don’t know how to sell myself, not
because I have an MS. I keep going for shitty IT/programming jobs and they ask
me “why aren’t you doing physics.” I say “I don’t think I’m smart enough.”
Which is honest but I could just as easily bullshit them and use it to talk
myself up. I don’t think many recruiters would last a month in those courses
anyway.

------
wyattjoh
Interesting!

Personally, I started with an B.Sc. Astrophysics, finished that. Realized that
it may take a while before I could get in a job related to an area that I'm
interested in. I went back and completed an B.Sc. Computer Sciences.

I've typically justified the two degrees by explaining that physics taught me
how to learn, how to break apart a problem, and computer sciences provided the
foundational basics as to how to associate abstract concepts into software. It
was certainly an experience!

------
batbomb
This is probably bad advice. Better advice would be to just find a good
experiment at a reputable school and latch on.

Projects in experimental physics at a good state school are typically a great
place for access to a machine shop, computing resources, and the possibility
for travel, in addition to the departments typically having a lower student to
professor ratio compared to the engineering schools.

You're also more likely to work for people with a variety of skills.

------
msvan
I've spent a lot of time getting an MA in mathematics, but I sometimes feel
that I should've just gone straight for computer science. I never intended to
do pure math research. My CS friends know more about databases and distributed
systems than I do, even if I know more about representation theory. Still, if
you subscribe to the signaling theory of education, what does it matter.

~~~
mjfl
> My CS friends know more about databases and distributed systems than I do,
> even if I know more about representation theory

I don't mean to be rude but this was a very foreseeable outcome of a masters
in math. Why didn't you foresee it?

~~~
msvan
My reasons for choosing what I chose do not fit into a Hacker News comment.

------
ptero
I think there are two parts of it. Physics degree is good -- obtaining it
correlates with the head being screwed on straight and is often appreciated by
employers.

On the other axis, I am puzzled on why they consider a Masters as a sweet
spot. If a graduate degree is not required, it does not get you much, career-
wise; and wherever a graduate degree is appreciated a PhD gets you further.
Just my 2c.

------
fspeech
Once you have the job a master's degree is a master's degree. If your employer
(esp. large ones) has some benefits in place for possessing a master's you
will qualify. However when you apply for jobs hiring managers may not know
what your master's degree (or Ph.D. for that matter) in physics entails.

~~~
jeffreyrogers
Depends on the job. Some government labs will only hire people with MS's or
PhDs in physics or a related field.

------
spullara
It me! Dropped out of my PhD program to do software engineering. Great
preparation for thinking from first principles.

------
mark_l_watson
Physics is a great general purpose education. I have a BS in Physics, from the
early 1970s, and while I have always worked in some form of software
development or research role, Physics was a great start.

In current times, a BS degree is probably not as useful, so spending a little
extra time to get a MS makes sense.

------
PaulHoule
... except in physics.

------
kmm
I'm supposed to get my master's degree in physics this summer (only a thesis
remains), and this thread is not doing me any good. Good thing I can program,
I guess.

~~~
throway1
I am enrolling in an undergrad physics+mathematics program soon. And I started
feeling uncomfortable.

------
rarrrrr
In general, physics majors tend to be badasses.

I know of people in a myriad of tech careers: site-reliability engineer, MBB
management consulting, QA, offensive security.

------
billfruit
Some universities have an Engineering Physics undergraduate program, seems
like a good option, of having choices to work in a lot of industries.

------
kkarakk
Another thing that opens the door to myriad careers is learning to code and
learning math. it's free

