
Kinesis Advantage 2 - afshinmeh
http://www.kinesis-ergo.com/shop/advantage2/
======
bandali
If you're looking for a mechanical ergonomic keyboard that you can also easily
take with you, I suggest taking a look at Atreus[0], a 42-key column-staggered
keyboard.

I got one a while back. Haven't gotten around to publishing my build log, but
building the keyboard was a lot of fun.

With the somewhat steep learning curve out of the way, I've been really
enjoying it and gone are the days of wrist pain.

Oh, and I'm in no way affiliated with Phil or the project, just a very happy
user dropping his 2¢ here.

[0]: [https://atreus.technomancy.us](https://atreus.technomancy.us)

~~~
gbrown_
Been eying these up for a while now. Also the firmware is completely open
which is nice.

~~~
aban
Absolutely; I'm using a slightly modified layout myself. Both the design and
the firmware(s) are free software:

\- Design (GPLv3):
[https://github.com/technomancy/atreus](https://github.com/technomancy/atreus)

\- Current firmware (GPLv2+):
[https://github.com/technomancy/tmk_keyboard/tree/atreus](https://github.com/technomancy/tmk_keyboard/tree/atreus)

\- Older firmware, great for learning (GPLv3):
[https://github.com/technomancy/atreus-
firmware](https://github.com/technomancy/atreus-firmware)

------
kross
Originally bought because of wrist pain, I've had the kinesis advantage for 16
years, I'm on my third one and I've worn out keys on each one from so much
use. Luckily they shipped me new switches for free and allowed me to switch
the myself (at my request due to timing). Fantastic service and product. I
really do wear them out.

With that said, all three exhibited the sticky modifier problem. I'm used to
it but it always made me wonder if the internals were going bad.

In March I preordered [https://shop.keyboard.io](https://shop.keyboard.io)

I'll be very interested to compare, and if it isn't as good or better, I won't
hesitate to order the updated kinesis advantage.

~~~
TylerE
That looks sort of interesting, but as a programmer, the awkward positioning
of tab and return, and the need to use modifier keys to get the directional
arrows, {}, and [] just completely kills it for me.

~~~
mike_h
No modifier keys necessary for the directional arrows, if you mean the ones
that move the cursor? They're under your pointer and middle finger on each
side. Having return key (and backspace, space, and mod keys) always directly
under your strongest fingers ends up feeling really natural and efficient, in
my experience.

~~~
TylerE
I was talking about the [https://shop.keyboard.io](https://shop.keyboard.io)
thingy.

~~~
ajsalminen
The firmware is open source and you should be able to remap the tab, return
and any other key you'd like anywhere you please.

------
robk
This keyboard style is absolutely amazing. I had pre-carpal style pain in my
hands for years and tried every other keyboard out there, including all the
ergo ones that came highly recommended. This is the only one that actually
stopped the pain for me. 10+ years of satisfaction here - I've got one at
every PC I use regularly now.

The new non-mushy F-keys are a nice improvement, but honestly not sure that's
worth replacing my existing ones since they're built like tanks already.

~~~
andrei_says_
Same here. I thought I'd have to change careers. This keyboard makes it
possible for me to continue coding.

I am wondering, does anyone here use the foot switches that kinesis makes and
in what configuration?

~~~
mtrimpe
Three pedal one here. Bought by accident but now happily use it with middle
one to switch modes using Karabiner and outer two either Cmd/Mouseclick or
pgup/down, left/right, scroll, space left/right etc.

------
richardboegli
I'm waiting for ultimate hacking keyboard in September [1]

[1]
[http://www.ultimatehackingkeyboard.com/](http://www.ultimatehackingkeyboard.com/)

~~~
Paul_S
Why stagger the keys?

~~~
dkhenry
As a ergodox user I can answer that.

While yes the matrix layout is _way_ better, the downside is that if you ever
type on a standard keyboard you are immediately frustrated. I imagine it would
depend on your working environment, but for me the combination of using a
laptop, working with co-workers, and then using my desk with my awesome
ergodox means that I am often fighting my own muscle memory to continue typing
at a high rate of speed.

There is something to be said to conforming to what most people have.
Splitting the keyboard gives me a good compromise, I can still have my hands
in relaxed positions, and while I am not going to be as fast as when I am on
just the ergodox ,I gain by being much faster working in the other
environments I often find myself in.

~~~
pfooti
Personally, I've found that it takes about five minutes for my hands to adjust
when I switch between ergodox and laptop. (Basically working at home vs in a
cafe). I'm a relatively speedy typist in either mode, but it does take
adjusting to swap modes.

That said, this is why I am not using colemak on my ergodox- I dont want to
further distance the two keyboards.

~~~
aerique
I used to type on Dvorak at home and Qwerty at work and switching between the
two was no issue.

------
jtreminio
Personally I am waiting for the KeyMouse[0], a physically-split keyboard with
integrated mouse as part of the keyboard parts, so no need to lift hand from
keyboard to perform mousely duties.

Hopefully it is a great product, but I'm wondering if they couldn't have taken
it a step further and made the keyboards at an angle to mimic natural arm
positions.

[0]: [http://www.keymouse.com/](http://www.keymouse.com/)

~~~
PostOnce
It's a little overengineered for my taste.

I would be very happy if microsoft on the Ergo 4000 instead of including a
stupid, absolutely useless "zoom knob" thing just put a trackpoint there!

[http://www.wolfmanzbytes.com/pc/mskeyb1/keyb4lg.jpg](http://www.wolfmanzbytes.com/pc/mskeyb1/keyb4lg.jpg)

what a bafflingly missed opportunity.

~~~
kabdib
I'd pay good money for an Ergo keyboard with mechanical switches. The last
decade or so of MS keyboards have been rubber-domed disasters. I cannot type
on the things.

I pre-ordered a couple KeyboardIO keyboards, and maybe I can make them work
well with a little firmware noodling. Looks like November or later . . . .

------
paraschas
For those that may wonder "What's the point of a weird-looking keyboard?":

Engelbart's Violin [http://www.loper-os.org/?p=861](http://www.loper-
os.org/?p=861)

~~~
falcolas
Thank you for the link; it and its references were interesting reads.

------
weitzj
I code the CODE keyboard right now
[https://codekeyboards.com](https://codekeyboards.com) And I especially like
the hardware switches to remap some keys. But the Kindesis SmartSet
Programming seems like another level.

------
benevol
The main problem with _buying_ the right keyboard is that you almost never can
try it out (i.e. in a store). There are multiple variables, besides the
general ergonomic question, mainly:

You want to know how it _feels_ to type, you want to know how it _sounds_ to
type (mostly: is it quiet or will you get on your co-worker's nerves?).

I have just bought a Logitech in a store that did not allow me to take it out
of the box to try it out. Once I've tried it out at home, I wanted to throw it
in the trash immediately. F*ck them for selling like that.

So, if you're looking for a start-up idea: Why not set up an online store with
ALL brands (maybe focus on the premium segment which is ergo keyboards,
first). Then you ship the customer keyboards to test at home. Once the
customer's happy, he returns the last test keyboard and gets a brand new
version of it.

~~~
vosper
If you're in the US Amazon generally lets you return anything for any reason.
"I tried it and I didn't like it" would be fine with them. It makes the
process a bit slower, with shipping and all, but you could purchase all your
candidate keyboards together and then return the one(s) you don't like.

~~~
tga
Up until they decide you've returned too many things and they cancel all your
accounts with them without recourse.

As with most stores, I think Amazon returns are meant for actual problems and
cases when things really don't work out, not for trying out hardware.

------
whiteheadrj
I have two of the original Kinesis Advantage keyboards, one for work and one
for home. They have saved my programming career.

------
Luc
Given the usual price multiples, this is going to be a nearly 500 euro
keyboard in Europe (inc. VAT).

E.g. Kinesis Advantage Pro in US: $359 ( [http://www.kinesis-
ergo.com/shop/advantage-pro-for-pc-mac/](http://www.kinesis-
ergo.com/shop/advantage-pro-for-pc-mac/) )

In Holland: 390 Euro ex VAT ( [https://www.backshop.nl/kinesis-advantage-
toetsenbord](https://www.backshop.nl/kinesis-advantage-toetsenbord) )

So let's say for the Advantage 2 the $369 price becomes 400 Euro. Add 21% VAT
and you end up paying about 484 euro, without shipping of course.

Ouch.

~~~
eikenberry
You can usually get it for around 10% off either when they run a sale or off
Amazon. But yes, they are expensive, but they also age well and Kinesis is
great with support. My first keyboard lasted 8 years before a couple of the
switches started to go. Contacting them, they gave me the option of shipping
me new switches for free (requires soldering) or buy a new key-well (the
curved circuit boards) for around $30.

~~~
Luc
The V1's don't age that well, though. My F-keys were starting to fail within a
couple of years. They are rubber dome keys with a little conduction graphite
layer on them, like remote control keys.

Granted, the new version _should_ not have this problem.

~~~
lgleason
The key with the V1's is to remap keys you use frequently from the f-keys to
something else, but if you use them a lot V2 will be a big upgrade for you.

------
Athas
I have used the original edition of this keyboard for some years now, and it
is amazing. By far the best keyboard I have ever used. While I prefer the
Cherry Blues on my older Das Keyboard, the layout of the Kinesis Advantage is
incredibly comfortable and quite efficient. It does take some remapping to
make it work well with Emacs, but that's all done with the keyboard firmware
itself (i.e. no driver software needed).

~~~
lgleason
If you want to solder in cherry blues yourself you might be able to buy the
keyboard without the switches. Kinesis is good about things like that.

------
icefox
Does it fix the shift bug that plagues the model 1? Every user I have talked
has had the issue but the company denies it is an issue even though we can
reproduce it on many different keyboards, different hardware, and os's.

I am very interested in getting this, but I don't want to do it if this issue
hasn't been resolved.

~~~
dsissitka
> ...but the company denies it is an issue...

It sounds like the person you spoke with wasn't familiar with the product.
They've been aware of the problem for years. It's mentioned in the manual [1]
and on their website [2].

[1] [http://www.kinesis-ergo.com/wp-
content/uploads/2015/06/conto...](http://www.kinesis-ergo.com/wp-
content/uploads/2015/06/contoured-ps2-manual.pdf) \- Page 28.

[2] [http://www.kinesis-ergo.com/support/technical-
support/troubl...](http://www.kinesis-ergo.com/support/technical-
support/troubleshoooting-advantage/) \- "Weird behavior with Advantage
keyboard".

~~~
yhager
Ah! Thank you! I've had this issue from time to time. I thought it is probably
a software thing, not the keyboard.

Thanks to the link you've sent I now have a simple solution - tap both shift
keys at once.. Great!

~~~
dsissitka
No problem. :)

You can also use _< Stuck Key> \+ <Program>_ in cases where you only have
instance of the stuck key. Alt or super in the default layout, for example.

------
dylanz
I had RSI issues, and jumped into using a Kinesis Advantage and switching to
Dvorak. I eventually went back to using my laptops keyboard, and still use
Dvorak. I haven't had any RSI issues in the last 6+ years! I highly recommend
switching to a Kinesis if you have hand/wrist pain and still need to work.

------
nubela
For those that prefer a split keyboard, I highly recommend Matias Ergo Pro.

The keys are very nice, more importantly, it allows me to adjust how far apart
each halves of the keyboard should be.

It seriously alleviated my shoulder ache as I can finally type with my arms
open.

------
rsipain
Everyone always focuses on keyboards for RSI. While a great keyboard helps,
removing the pressure off your wrists makes a massive difference.
[https://www.amazon.com/Wrist-Rest-Horizontal-Fashionable-
Arm...](https://www.amazon.com/Wrist-Rest-Horizontal-Fashionable-
Armrest_Silver/dp/B00OFNFPMG) These may make you look awkward at the office,
but it takes all the strain out of your hands and wrists. Your weight is now
on your forearm. Leaving your hands free to move. They articulate in every
direction allowing full "wax on" "wax off" motions.

------
1ris
I can recommend the ErgoDox. It's somwhat similar and DIY, but much cheaper.
For mine I payed not much over 100€.

~~~
icefox
Link: [https://ergodox-ez.com/](https://ergodox-ez.com/)

~~~
nazgob
295$ is not that much cheaper.

~~~
1ris
The PCB is only 35€. And i had most other parts already.

------
dotemacs
Here is "What's new" info:

1) Cherry ML mechanical function keys

Original Advantage: Mushy rubber function keys. Advantage2: You asked for it
and we delivered. The function key row now features low-force Cherry ML
mechanical key switches that offer a satisying, tactile key press plus
unmatched reliability and durability.

2) Whopping 2 MB of onboard memory

Original Advantage: 2 KB of onboard memory (Advantage Pro had 4 KB).
Advantage2: The Advantage2 has 2 MB of memory, as in megabytes, which is 1000x
more memory than the standard Advantage. Now you have an enormous amount of
space to record macros and build custom layouts.

3) Heavy duty macros & increased capacity

Original Advantage: Up to 48 “short” macros (28 characters or less) or 24
“long” macros (58 characters or less) Advantage2: Each custom layout built
with the SmartSet engine can now support 100+ “heavy-duty” macros of more than
200+ characters in each. SmartSet allows you to create even more powerful
macros through the direct editing process. Insert delays into macro playback
of either 125ms or 500ms, or trigger different actions on the press and
release of a given macro trigger.

4) View and edit layouts

Original Advantage: When you remapped a key or recorded a macro you had no
easy way to track you changes or perform any updates. Advantage2: With
SmartSet, all layouts are saved and stored as basic .txt files which can be
opened with any text editing program on any operating systems. Open the text
file and directly edit your remaps or macros. Even insert new actions using
many standard USB hex codes.

5) Share and backup layouts

Original Advantage: There was no way to share or backup layouts. You had to
keep a separate crib sheet if you ever wanted to rebuild your custom layout.
Advantage2: Each layout is stored as a basic text file making them easy to
save, backup or even share with a friend. The days of rebuilding your custom
layout from scratch are over.

6) Status Report

Original Advantage: It was easy to forget which layout was active, which thumb
key mode you were in and other keyboard settings. Advantage2: Thanks to the
new Status Report feature, you can quickly “print-to-screen” a Status Report
showing you basic information about the active layout include the number of
key remaps and macros, and your thumb key mode.

7) Adjust macro playback speed

Original Advantage: All macros played back at one speed. Advantage2: Choose
from 9 different macro playback speeds. Set the playback speed globally for
all macros or set it individually for a specific macro to optimize
performance. Slow playback down to 4.2 characters per second (“CPS”), or speed
it up to a blazing fast 250 CPS- equivalent to typing 3,000 words per minute!

8) Hotkey layouts

Original Advantage: Only supported one custom layout. Advantage2: With the
Advantage2, you can now create dozens of custom hotkey layouts for either
QWERTY or Dvorak and access them with a simple 2-key combination: Program +
the assigned hotkey.

9) Native Dvorak

Original Advantage: When you switched out of Dvorak you lost your settings.
When you remapped keys in your Dvorak layout you did so in QWERTY. Advantage2:
Dvorak is no longer a second-class citizen. Dvorak users get all the same
functionality as QWERTY users, and each custom Dvorak layout is saved to the
keyboard so it’s easy to move back-and-forth or share your keyboard. And when
you’re remapping in Dvorak, you no longer have to translate from QWERTY.

10) Easy firmware upgrades

Original Advantage: Firmware was not upgradable. Advantage2: When you invest
in an expensive keyboard, you expect it to last. Thanks to the SmartSet engine
you can upgrade the firmware when new versions become available. Firmware
updates take only seconds and don’t require opening up the keyboard or
downloading a scary executable file (.exe) from the internet.

11) Kinesis Blue Home Row

Advantage2 features a more vibrant, modern home row accented in Kinesis Blue.

~~~
hacker42
What are some examples what the macro function can be used for? In many cases
the macros I need are so specific such that I define them on the fly in VIM
(i.e. q [a-z] and then q to stop, finally @ [a-z] for playback). Perhaps I
simply don't write enough for macros to take advantage of more permanent
macros.

~~~
zafiro17
I'm not a programmer, I'm a manager that spends far too many hours a day glued
to Microsoft Outlook (kill me, please). I found the macros useful simply to
repeat often typed phrases or keystrokes. So for example, I bound F3 to the
expression "Best regards, zafiro17" followed by Alt-S which is bound by
default to "Send" in Outlook. So I'd write the body of an email, then hit F3
and the keyboard would add my closing and hit send.

------
nspassov
I have been using the Kinesis Freestyle on my Mac with the VIP accessory pads
and it is very comfortable. I place the two parts of the keyboard on the sides
of my 15" MBP.

~~~
toyg
I have the Freestyle 2 (which I reviewed here [0]) and it's great. My wrists
are so much more relaxed. Every time I have to use a traditional keyboard now
I cringe. It's also helped me improve touch-typing.

Unfortunately, I have not found a good solution for a mice. The Magic
Trackpad, even turned around in negative slope, is just not good enough when
there's a bit too much drag&drop.

[0] [http://blog.pythonaro.com/2015/01/kinesis-
freestyle2-multich...](http://blog.pythonaro.com/2015/01/kinesis-
freestyle2-multichannel.html)

~~~
shiftb
I use a Wacom tablet instead of a mouse or trackpad. Holding the stylus
pencil-style is very comfortable once you get used to it.

~~~
dragonne
I use a Wacom for some tasks, but I find it even worse than a mouse if you are
switching back and forth a lot. For drag and drop I recommend the Contour
Design Rollermouse Red. The downside is it doesn't pair well with a deep
keyboard, as it wants to replace any wrist rest.

------
ifoundthetao
Along with everyone else here, I had the same issue with my wrists, took a
gamble, and got the keyboard. I haven't looked back. It's awesome.

I let a co-worker borrow it, because he was having wrist issues, and he had
the complete opposite effect with him. Wrist was turned down when he said it
needed to be turned to the side. So he tried it for 15 minutes and returned it
to me. So I guess it's not for everyone.

------
koolba
How long does it take to get used to using something like this?

Is it worth the effort?

How does it compare to a natural keyboard (the slightly more normal looking
split one by Microsoft)?

~~~
cookiecaper
It took me about 2 weeks until I was up to normal speed. It was probably a
month before I could use it with zero difficulty. I used ktouchtype to train
on it.

The thing is if you have any idiosyncrasies in your touch typing, the Kinesis
will _not_ forgive them. The way that the keys are stepped down into different
levels makes it difficult to use the "wrong" finger to reach the desired key.
Of course, ultimately, that's for the better. It will just take you a little
bit of time to unlearn some of the not-quite-official typing habits you may've
developed over the years.

I absolutely believe it's worth the effort. Wrist pain is almost never an
issue for me anymore. The Kinesis is highly durable and cleans up very well.

I used the "Natural" keyboard for years before I switched to the Kinesis.
There's no comparison. I had to replace the MS keyboard twice a year or more.
Been on the same Kinesis for about 4 years and there are no signs of it
wearing out.

The only downside is that sometimes there are weird firmware issues that sit
unreconciled. For example, there is some incompatibility with the Intel USB
3.0 bus, Windows 7 (at the time, Win8 was the latest OS, and it didn't affect
Win8; don't know if it affects Win10 or not), and the Kinesis. It simply isn't
detected under that OS. No problems on other versions of Windows, other OSes,
or other USB busses. This meant I couldn't use it on a Bootcamp'd MacBook Pro.
Kinesis was apparently unable to get Intel to cooperate in debugging the issue
with their chipset drivers.

That said, it's an investment that I enthusiastically endorse if you're
willing to commit to a couple weeks of learning curve (and since we're talking
about the health of the hands needed to continue our careers here, you
definitely should be).

~~~
ldiracdelta
I had a very similar experience with Advantage 2. 1 week to be mostly usable,
and 1 month for the keyboard to disappear from my mind and melt into the flow.

------
wanderr
I tried out the original and found it to be incredibly frustrating. I'm a fast
typist, used to MS Natural keyboards,and I constantly felt like my fingers
were "tripping" over the keys. I'm sure part of that is just getting used to
the arrangement but I really felt like I was putting more strain on my wrists
trying to move my fingers more deliberately to avoid hitting other keys.

~~~
loup-vaillant
Slow down.

The asymmetry you are used to with the (un)Natural keyboards induced reflexes
that no longer work with the contoured. For instance, to hit many keys in
staggered keyboard such as Microsoft's, you have to twist your wrist a little.
If you counter this natural twist (instead of not twisting at all), this
contracts your wrist even more than it used to.

So slow down, it _will_ get more natural over time.

------
alexkehayias
Anyone know if the firmware allows you to program keys to emulate a mouse? I
use this often with tmk_keyboard
[https://github.com/tmk/tmk_keyboard](https://github.com/tmk/tmk_keyboard)
firmware and found it to be just good enough to never use a mouse and keep the
keyboard on your lap which is much better for my shoulders.

~~~
whyasker
No, but contact the support ( [http://www.kinesis-ergo.com/support/technical-
support/contac...](http://www.kinesis-ergo.com/support/technical-
support/contact-tech/) ) they are wonderful.

~~~
lgleason
Agreed, this could be a feature that could be added if there is enough demand
with the firmware.

------
zafiro17
I bought the Advantage1 in 2008 and it's been one of my best keyboards ever
since then. It's extremely comfortable. I wrote up a few paragraphs about my
impressions here:

[http://therandymon.com/index.php?/archives/167-Typing-in-
Sty...](http://therandymon.com/index.php?/archives/167-Typing-in-Style-with-
the-Kinesis.html)

The one common complaint is that they had used rubber keys instead of
mechanical for the function keys. Looks like that issue is addressed in this
second edition. For sheer key build quality, the Totally Ergonomic Keyboard is
better. But the Kinesis is more ergonomically comfortable, and includes a
couple of USB slots so it can function as a hub (few other ergo keyboards do
that).

I won't buy this new version because my own Ergo will probably last another 20
years - it's built that strongly! - and the rubber function keys don't bother
me a bit.

~~~
dragonne
Maybe this is new, but the TECK has terrible build quality IME. I have been
using two (home and work) and both have accrued keys that don't work properly
---some don't respond reliably, or at all, and some double-press. These are
both Cherry browns. Firmware tweaks haven't helped.

~~~
lgleason
I heard that there were some issues with the solder joints on the switches
with the the TECK. When I went over to being a Kinesis user I had considered
these but decided to go with the Advantage......am very glad I did.

------
anotherevan
I was lucky enough to find a local-ish store that had in-store demos
available. They were nice enough to let me go in and try one out for an hour
or so.

I'm quite happy with my MS Ergo 4000, but I always wanted to try out the
Kinesis. It does take a fair amount of getting use to. Initially feels quite
funny to type on. The deal breaker for me at the time is that too many of the
symbol keys are not in their usual locations, which is more significant when
programming than writing prose.

Here in the Antipodes the markup on these things is ridiculous (e.g.,
AU$550/US$420) so you really have to want one.

------
ScottBurson
Another keyboard to look at is the Keyboardio Model 01:
[https://shop.keyboard.io/](https://shop.keyboard.io/)

They're not shipping yet; as of their last update, estimated ship date is Nov.
1. I have a pair on order, but I haven't had a chance to try one, so I can
only hope they work as nice as they look :-)

------
samdoshi
You could always 3D print your own one...

[https://github.com/adereth/dactyl-
keyboard](https://github.com/adereth/dactyl-keyboard)

Bonus points for having used Clojure to design it

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uk3A41U0iO4](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uk3A41U0iO4)

------
shassard
Hey Kinesis, if you're reading here, I'd love to see a controller upgrade for
the original Advantage to get around the sticky keys bug. It's not even a
problem to lose the built-in USB hub. My two old Advantage keyboards are
trucking along just fine otherwise!

------
kevinherron
These keyboards are amazing. Hands/wrists stopped hurting after ~1 week of
switching.

~~~
michaf
I had a similar experience. Increasing pain levels gradually drove me away
from from pursuing programming projects outside of work. First I tried the
Kinesis Freestyle2, and while the pain got better, my hands could not adjust
to the additional degree of freedom from having two keyboard pieces. Got the
Advantage, and now I can code again for hours without any wrist pain. Highly
recommended.

------
lgleason
I was a beta tester of this. AMA

------
Luc
FINALLY real key switches for the F-keys. I have been making do without them
for at least 7 years now, since they gave out after only a couple of years on
my Kinesis Ergo Elan.

Still using the same old plastic moulds with the weird off-centre label I see.

~~~
bosie
Where do you see that? The photos look like the same rubbery things they are
using in V1?

~~~
lgleason
I beta tested the Advantage 2. They replaced the rubber keys with mechanical
ones using the same size for the switch.

~~~
azinman2
Anything else that's diff? I almost never use my f keys do its not a big deal
for me.

~~~
lgleason
The firmware with the ability to update it and do a lot more crazy stuff with
the macros etc.. I'm not a heavy macro person but do a decent amount of
remapping and liked that. Also the stuck shift/modifier keys has been fixed.

If you currently have one, are happy with your setup and don't really use the
f keys it might not make as much sense to do an upgrade. If you need another
unit, have killed your current unit, or want to make the switch I would
recommend this over the previous models.

~~~
azinman2
Frustratingly I just had a new one ordered for a new job. I can't wait for the
pre-order, I need one now :(

The stuck modifier key issue I didn't know was universal, but is annoying. I'm
surprised they can't do a firmware update for that? Does it really need a new
model to fix it after all these years? I've had the stuck modifier issue from
an advantage from 2008.

~~~
lgleason
The problem is that the previous version did not have firmware that could be
flashed and I'm guessing that they had other micro controller issues. In all
honesty if you run into this issue once a day you are probably running into it
a lot. I currently have a classic and a advantage and it's not a huge deal.
The difference between having a advantage 1 vs advantage 2 is much smaller
than the difference between having a non advantage (well style keyboard)
versus something else.

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clessg
Is it possible for Canadians to buy this? (Or those outside the US in
general?)

~~~
shassard
I've bought a few of the model 1 from
[http://www.ergocanada.com/](http://www.ergocanada.com/) in the past. Be
prepared for a hefty markup and non-trivial shipping costs. It might be
cheaper to buy in from the US in the end.

You might also have some luck contacting vendors that sell other Kinesis gear
and see if they'll special order it for you at a good price.
[http://www.shopbot.ca/m/?m=kinesis](http://www.shopbot.ca/m/?m=kinesis)

------
homero
A macro can now contain a whole program in case you like compiling fresh

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wilsonc91
Wonder if this is worth buying over the advantage 1 in Canada with additional
costs of getting it shipped over the borders. Can get the older model for $400
CDN on amazon.

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allsystemsgo
I have one of these on every computer I own. It's amazing. It saved my career.
I physically cannot type on a regular keyboard anymore.

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johnflan
Wrist damage will be the new back damage.

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SSLy
yeah, that's about 1/3 of my salary...

~~~
noelwelsh
They are far from the only ergonomic keyboard in town. The Microsoft Natural
is decent and about 20% of the price.

~~~
ldiracdelta
After you try the Kinesis Advantage, the Microsoft Natural feels like a joke.
The length of your fingers is distributed like a parabola and the Kinesis
design is the parabola that fits over your fingers to minimize the travel
distance of _all_ your fingers. Conversely, the Microsoft Natural keyboard is
actually a parabola that goes _away_ from your finger to actually _increase_
the travel distance needed for your ring, pinky, and index fingers.

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drivingmenuts
Why is that thing so bloody expensive? The cost of parts for a keyboard are
measure in pennies, for the most part. The manufacturing is ridiculously
cheap.

So, with all of that, what justifies a $350 price tag on any keyboard these
days?

~~~
lgleason
I've had conversations with Kinesis about this. Even though there is a
enthusiast community there is not enough of a demand to send manufacturing
overseas. Also, because of the key well design those PCB's need to be soldered
by hand rather than wave soldering them. The net effect is that they are hand
made in the United States which is why the cost is higher.

~~~
rleigh
It's the same thing with Maltron keyboards, which have a similar 3D sculpted
layout for some of their models. They are individually hand-wired.

On the other hand, when you look at the cost of RSI they are well worth the
cost when you consider the alternative. I tried out the Maltron and it didn't
help me (it's not carpal tunnel), but I get along well with the Kinesis
Freestyle 2. Worth every penny, I got one for home as well, and it helps
greatly. When the alternative is finding another career, it's pretty
inexpensive all considered.

~~~
lgleason
When you factor in how long these things last it ends up being a wash... a
Kinesis will last 8-10 years vs most which start to have issues after 2.

