
The Trouble with Mindfulness Apps (2016) - walterbell
https://www.mindful.org/trouble-mindfulness-apps/
======
fermienrico
Meditation and mindfullness are free. You really don’t need an app. What you
need is a book to get started and learn: Cudalasa’s Mind Illuminated is
absolutely life changing.

When it comes to mindfullness, there is a lot of bullshit out there. As an
objective and critical person, I find it hard to trust anyone. If you’re in
the same boat, delete all these apps and buy a copy of Cudalasa. Once you’ve
internalized the method of meditation, it’s there for life.

~~~
eberfreitas
Where can I get the book for free?

~~~
criddell
If you see somebody reading it at the bus stop, you can grab it out of their
hands and run away.

~~~
beobab
Completely accurate, whilst being impractical and a bit dangerous.

You are a genius. I love it.

------
SnowingXIV
Completely felt the same about these kinds of apps previously and likely still
do, I've a had a few people recommend them to me and I've dismissed them
immediately because to meditate or clear my head I want less electronics, I
want to be away from anything remotely related to pixels on a screen.

Since I haven't had much luck on my own, I recently started to use headspace,
basically it's just audio of a guy talking for a few minutes. It's helped me
quite a bit, I imagine this would work just as well if it were a teacher or
friend but I feel few people have to have access to someone who will do that
with them every day.

Each lesson gives some tips on how to help not remove thoughts but accept them
which I always tried to manually delete thoughts but it always failed and
there was too much resistance. I'm adverse to taking any type of anxiety
medications so this is a much cheaper and risk-free alternative.

I don't pay for it as that does distract from the point but it's been
beneficial (I think). It's likely not science, but it helped create a routine
of letting yourself breathe for a bit which in itself is useful.

~~~
pivotal
I feel the same way. Headspace's guided take 10 course was a solid
introduction for me, but once I got used to regular practice, headspace's
"extras" weren't needed anymore. Now all I really want is a timer and tracking
of when I meditated, so I use Insight Timer.

~~~
tunesmith
That's exactly what I did - the ten-talk intro for headspace, straight to the
Insight Timer timer with some background sounds.

------
ThomPete
"When your favorite mindfulness app says it’s based in science, check twice.
Few actually are."

As far as I know, none of them are is based on science.

~~~
billrobertson42
Computer science!

~~~
carlmr
Like one of my CompSci professors said. I don't know how we got away with
calling this a science.

~~~
billrobertson42
Yes, also when we call programmers engineers, same same.

------
alex_lod
What bothers me most about these is that they often charge money. In Buddhism
the teaching of mindfulness has been offered through “dana” (donations).
Teachings so close to our hearts shouldn’t be commercialized in my opinion. If
they are, they lose a lot of their essence. Hard to explain :)

~~~
criddell
I think it depends on if you see a fee as _buying mindfulness_ or _supporting
a teacher_. I really don't have a problem with the latter.

I downloaded and have been using Oak for a few weeks now and so far, I think I
like it. I haven't seen ads and the app is pretty basic. They have guided and
unguided sessions and I find myself returning to the guided version even
though I've pretty much memorized the instruction. The voices are nice and I
actually find myself doing a better job of staying focused on my breath.

I don't know that it's been beneficial yet, but it is becoming a habit.

It also introduced me to Alan Watts and that can't be a bad thing.

~~~
epalmer
What is this "Oak" app you mentioned? There are a lot of Android Apps with Oak
in their name. Thanks.

~~~
skinnymuch
Looks like it is for iOS only.
[https://www.oakmeditation.com](https://www.oakmeditation.com). Apparently by
Kevin Rose of Digg among other things fame.

------
spraak
It's a nice time to remember there are many types of meditation, and to know
your goal of meditating, which can range from being more calm or peaceful, to
enlightenment or connection with God. In terms of types of meditations, some
are more active and dynamic. One of the easiest and most blissful is kirtan,
which is chanting in a group, usually with some instruments/music. It can be
helpful to perform a more active meditation first in order to settle the mind,
after which a still meditation can be more fruitful.

------
walterbell
Free iOS/Android app for “belly breathing”, looks like it was made for
veterans:
[http://t2health.dcoe.mil/apps/breathe2relax](http://t2health.dcoe.mil/apps/breathe2relax)

Are there good paid apps which do not collect data, track user behavior, or
charge monthly subscription fees?

------
moh_maya
So, the article seems focused on apps that are claim to treat / address
depression. There is a difference in practicing mindfulness for "general"
stress management v/s trying to use meditation / mindfulness to treat
psychological illnesses.

A quick google [1,2] suggests there is some research emerging indicating that
such apps can work.

[1]
[https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S030645301...](https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0306453017304109)

[2]
[https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10902-014-9589-1](https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10902-014-9589-1)
(via the headspace website).

I do not disagree with the central thesis of the article, i.e., the claims
that many (most) of these apps make must be validated with clinical trials
before they are allowed to make such claims; especially on issues such as
depression & anxiety --> in effect, they are targeting the (potentially)
desperate people looking for a solution

But I think going from "these claims should be validated" to "none of these
apps are useful; its all snakeoil. Take a book and do it on your own" is a bit
of a leap.

Meditation & mindfulness are personal experiences. Even the best book or coach
that works for others may not work for me. Calibrating my expectations and
systematically trying different approaches (books, coaches, apps) is probably
the only way I (or anyone) can find a method that fits one's personality /
mindset.

------
tripzilch
> Brewer predicts that as more apps for behavioral treatments come to
> market—and as others surface that aren’t clinical apps but use medical
> language in their marketing—organizations like the Substance Abuse and
> Mental Health Administration, which provides guidelines for evidence-based
> treatments and a national registry of programs, could inherit a role in this
> wild west.

Why does it have to be US-based organisations to fact-check these claims?

I mean, I get that one answer that the appstore (and playstore) is pretty much
US-dominated, but it's not like US healthcare is a glowing example to the rest
of the world (or the EU, in particular). And perhaps more importantly, neither
are the US' restrictions on misleading advertising regarding medical claims.

Since the play/appstore are in fact global (or multinational) things, their
corporations multinationals, why not take advantage of the knowledge on other
continents?

~~~
jnordwick
Sorry to say this, but other places still regularly place faith in pseudo
sciences like Traditional Chinese Medicine, Ayurveda, acupuncture, etc. Sadly
this is invading medicine, and I wish the push back was stronger.

While our health insurance system is a disaster, our dedication to the
scientific method is still best, I believe (even with our Integrative
Medicine-like foul ups).

------
spodek
I have a mindfulness app based in science, proven to work.

The off button.

~~~
throwawaysecops
Even better, get a good case of Aphantasia.

------
pharrington
"Be prepared to be bored"

That's actually a damn good ad for a mindfulness app.

------
hateduser2
Mindfulness strikes me as total BS pandering to westerners obsession and
reverence for Buddhism and some orientalist kind of ideas.

Don’t kid yourself and buy into all the marketing.

~~~
Shikadi
Username checks out.

Science disagrees with you. The commercialization may be pandering, but
mindfulness itself is not.

~~~
hateduser2
To the extent that the science says it is one way (and it’s legitimate science
and you interpreted it correctly), I take your view. I still find it totally
ybsatisfting as far as actually understanding the source of stress and dealing
with it in a healthy and long term way.

Thanks for the jab. Makes me hate you a little.

~~~
Shikadi
I don't actually hate you <3

