
Zappos CEO Tony Hsieh is stepping down after 21 years - jchin
https://footwearnews.com/2020/business/executive-moves/zappos-ceo-tony-hsieh-steps-down-1203045974/
======
betocmn
I grew up in Brazil, where customer service was bad-to-terrible in 90% of the
companies I had to deal with.

When I moved to Australia, I thought it would be a lot better. It wasn't much
different.

When I joined a wine subscription startup in 2016 as the technical co-founder,
I wasn't just building the recommendation engine. I was also helping to pack
the boxes at the warehouse.

We all got fascinated with Tony's book "Delivering Happiness" [1]. As I packed
boxes, I listened to the audiobook several times. Then I read it later on
again.

I'm still surprised how bad customer service is in most companies. Don't talk
to me like a robot. Just pretend you're messaging a co-worker in plain-
friendly-English. And be genuinely interested in solving my issues knowing
that you will have higher LTV in the long term if you invest the time and
resources to make me happy now.

A few years later and our customers are obsessed not just about the wine we
recommend. They also write love letters about how happy they are to deal with
our customer service team. I'm still writing code on the other side, but it
makes my day to see that part of the business working so well.

[1] [https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/6828896-delivering-
happi...](https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/6828896-delivering-happiness)

~~~
tjr225
> Don't talk to me like a robot. Just pretend you're messaging a co-worker in
> plain-friendly-English. And be genuinely interested in solving my issues
> knowing that you will have higher LTV in the long term if you invest the
> time and resources to make me happy now.

This is an easy thing to say as a customer or a customer success oriented
person.

I am leaving a support role just now. I am actually taking a pay cut to do so.
Almost all of my customers speak to me in a rude tone.

I have no incentive to pretend to have an interest in their issues. I don’t
think the issue is with customer support, but general attitudes among IT
professionals.

On top of this, customer success is treated as a second class to engineering
even if our problems are harder and more stressful. Imagine finding a bug and
being blamed for the bug not being fixed while at the same time engineering is
mad at you for wanting it fixed. Gross.

Anyway- support; never again.

~~~
nkohari
> even if our problems are harder and more stressful.

I suspect that you're going to catch some grief for this statement. :)

~~~
ascendantlogic
Any engineer that takes issue with that statement has never spent a day
dealing with rude, angry customers and has no accurate frame of reference to
draw up a response.

~~~
user5994461
I remember some time in support, most customers weren't rude. It's boring
calls to register on the service, moving out to a new address, or confirming
identity.

~~~
wink
If telephone support is the final option after email doesn't work, I feel
entitled to be angry. That doesn't mean I have to be rude, but I let the call
center person now that I am fucking angry if I wrote 2 emails/support tickets
already and they haven't solved the problem.

------
dvt
I want to also counter-balance the negativity towards Hsieh with my own
experience. From 2015-2017, I worked at Edmunds.com which was (to put it
lightly) a bit _obsessed_ with "Delivering Happiness" and Zappos' culture. So
much so, that the leadership team visited Vegas to get a tour of the Zappos HQ
(this was before I joined). But Edmunds based their entire cultural approach,
including hiring, interviewing, and onboarding on Zappos.

The Edmunds onboarding experience has been _by far_ the best out of any
company I worked at. Sure, it was silly games and scavenger hunts that didn't
really have anything to do with "work," but I look back at the entire
experience with a lot of nostalgia. I loved the onboarding so much, I've been
contemplating doing a startup that literally just focuses on improving
cultural onborading at companies. It made my first few months at Edmunds not
only incredibly productive, but also intellectually and socially stimulating.

And they were doing something right. Over there, I had the honor of working
with one of the best managers I ever had (he's now at Amazon), and with one of
the best software architects I've ever worked with (he's now at Facebook). My
team was made up of motivated, smart, folks from all walks of life (recent
grads to data science PhD's in their 50s). I still keep in touch with my old
team even though we're spread all over these days: doing our own startups, at
Facebook, Uber, Amazon, and beyond.

I have the utmost respect for the cultural revolution that entrepreneurs like
Tony Hsieh brought to the fore. People that call it a "cult" are missing the
point. It's no more a cult than cheering for your school mascot or being in a
club. We seem to forget that people are inherently social and need a sense of
belonging.

~~~
hn_throwaway_99
> We seem to forget that people are inherently social and need a sense of
> belonging.

As someone who used to work at a company that also was fairly well known for
its 'cultish' culture, while I agree with your statement above, I also
strongly believe that the modern corporate workplace is _fundamentally_
incompatible with the sense of social belonging that humans need. Worse, many
smart people take advantage of this need for a sense of belonging with the
sole goal of making more money for rich people.

Early human social groups, namely the family, village, and tribe, were
strongly cohesive. You were only "kicked out" if you had made some severe
transgression against the group (or you had "come of age", and needed to start
your own group, which is something else entirely). You were not kicked out the
second the group's profits took a dip or it was determined you were dead
weight and the group you could do better without you. But these days
"fiduciary duty" actually _demands_ the group leaders take a simple
utilitarian viewpoint of whether they keep you in the group.

This isn't meant to be totally pessimistic. Some of my favorite times and best
friends were at companies that had a great corporate culture with a corporate
mission I believed in. But these actually tended to be more mature
organizations that were honest about what they were doing: being a successful
business that made money, was an enjoyable place to work, and created value
for customers. It's actually the 'cultish' places I find that people get
extremely bitter when they leave because they were sold a bill of goods that
was never true to begin with.

~~~
dvt
> As someone who used to work at a company that also was fairly well known for
> its 'cultish' culture, while I agree with your statement above, I also
> strongly believe that the modern corporate workplace is fundamentally
> incompatible with the sense of social belonging that humans need. Worse,
> many smart people take advantage of this need for a sense of belonging with
> the sole goal of making more money for rich people.

Totally agree with this and you should always draw a line between "work stuff"
and "personal stuff." There's definitely a dark side here. However, I do think
there's value in making your employees feel welcome and wanted.

~~~
layoutIfNeeded
>there's value in making your employees feel welcome and wanted

More like there's more value in making your employees feel welcome and wanted
by feeding them Kool-Aid, rather than paying them well.

~~~
dvt
For what it's worth, I got paid on par with FAANG.

------
jerlam
A few years back, I went to their office tour in Vegas, and I've read Hsieh's
book, which doesn't cover much of the post-Amazon years.

It seemed pretty clear to me that Zappos was in decline as an independent
entity. Fulfillment was already gone. They were in the middle of removing
their product photography team. A section of their office was being used as a
community co-working space. There were fun quirky office areas but completely
devoid of employees. It wasn't clear if Zappos did anything beyond customer
service. I don't know if Tony Hsieh could really call himself a CEO anymore
under Amazon's thumb.

Zappos was really proud of their long weird onboarding process. They stress
over and over their core values. You write and perform a skit about those core
values to the company when you "graduate". At the end, if you don't think
Zappos is the place for you, they'll pay you a few thousand dollars to leave.
I'd imagine that people who aren't completely in love with the company would
never go through this process.

~~~
nradov
Some people can pretend to believe anything for a paycheck.

~~~
ashtonkem
There’s a fine line between trying to to welcome people to a new culture, and
being creepy.

Personally I find the “we’re a family” attitude of a lot of these places
deeply offputting; most families won’t lay off members when things get tough
economically, so let’s stop pretending that we’re doing this for fun.

------
meddlepal
Worked with someone that had bought into the cult of Zappos as an HR/Head of
People/Whatever the fuck you want to call it these days.

They were gross. The happiness culture is toxic and if you don't buy into it
and aren't projecting rays of sunshine 24/7 from all your orifices you're
expected to just fuck off.

~~~
dboat
Your stance that they are overly intolerant would have more credibility if you
had stated it more tastefully. As it is, you have lead me to believe your
attitude was more likely the actual problem.

~~~
pirocks
I mean often online discourse is different from real life discourse.
Additionally I could imagine that OP could be fairly upset about this, I know
such a culture would drive me insane after a few days.

------
adaisadais
One of my favorite (and definitely my Mom’s favorite) parts of Zappos is the
hand written note that they send with each pair of shoes.

My mom is an avid walker and she loves comfortable shoes so most birthdays and
Christmas’s I send her a pair from Zappos.

The hand written note is such a nice touch for such a big business (especially
from a parent company like Amazon- the anti-personalizer) that it makes the
gift of Zappos (or even the gift card) something fun to give and fun to
receive.

Tony, keep on experimenting! It makes it more fun for the customer.

~~~
onionisafruit
I’ve never seen a note in my zappos order. Have I been inadvertently throwing
away these notes for years?

~~~
milofeynman
I haven't either. Is it possible it's a "this is a gift" option?

~~~
marmshallow
It seems so. According to their blog post about it, they're writing cards
specific to the life event - birthday, get well, etc.

[https://www.zappos.com/about/stories/pec-
cards](https://www.zappos.com/about/stories/pec-cards)

------
ipsum2
Does anyone know how his "The Downtown Project" (aka Vegas revitalization) is
going?

~~~
bluedevil2k
Have you driven the blocks around downtown Vegas lately? It's very seedy, full
of pawn shops and payday lending stores, liquor stores and closed stores.
Streets are dirty, numerous homeless people. I admire his goal of revitalizing
it, but it didn't work.

~~~
ryandrake
It's too bad, because I really wish Vegas could somehow magically turn into a
tech jobs hub. It's got a lot going for it: No state income tax. Cheap
housing. Minimal regulation. Cheap, relatively private LLCs. World class
restaurants. World class entertainment/shows (even if touristy). Casinos, if
you're into it. If NorCal is a heaven for people who like outdoor activities,
then Vegas is the heaven for people who like the indoors. The only down side
is it's really hot, but going indoors fixes this.

If my employer opened an office anywhere near Las Vegas, I'd list my house and
call the moving truck the next day.

~~~
marcinzm
Nevada lacks the three laws/regulations which make California, imho, popular
for entrepreneurs:

* Limited non-competes

* Limited IP assignment clauses

* Limited anti-moonlighting clauses

It's hard to start a business when your current employer can block you from
doing so.

~~~
1024core
For a long time, it's been quite obvious that these 3 laws are a cornerstone
of why California had the tech boom. And yet almost no other state has managed
to put these on the books! I'd be willing to bet that if Nevada implements
these (properly), they'll attract a lot more tech startups.

~~~
ryandrake
True for small tech companies, but major tech companies routinely flaunt CA
loopholes to lay claim all sorts of employee-produced IP, and prevent
moonlighting. If an invention is similar to something your company makes or
might one day make (which could encompass anything for a major tech company),
then they can lay claim to it and prevent you from moonlighting working on it.

------
war1025
I had no idea they were a 20 year old company.

I assumed they were a fresh startup around 2015 or so when they started
getting a lot of media traction.

Maybe I was just out of the loop, but that's really surprising to me.

~~~
bitwarrior
2015 was the year you personally started paying attention:

[https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=all&geo=US&q=z...](https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=all&geo=US&q=zappos)

~~~
jheriko
I disagree this is broadly unknown outside of a niche...

Even if the company practises seem to have had a knock-on effect. .. if the
article is accurate of course.

------
pcurve
"In 2009, Zappos was acquired by online behemoth Amazon.com Inc. for 10
million shares of Amazon stock"

Stock went up 30 times since then. I wonder many shares he kept.

~~~
Paul-ish
It probably has split too.

~~~
newobj
It's never split in the 21st century.

------
ponker
This sounds like a forced exit. For the founder and CEO and basic Messiah of
the company to leave with 0 days notice, and for the _incoming CEO_ to be
sending the notice, sounds like someone got their email terminated and walked
off the property. Even CEOs who are fired for company performance sometimes
get to send their own farewell letter:
[https://www.theguardian.com/technology/blog/2013/mar/01/grou...](https://www.theguardian.com/technology/blog/2013/mar/01/groupon-
andrew-mason-fired-letter)

------
CameronBanga
I had the chance to meet Tony in 2009, ~early July. Looking at Wikipedia now,
I guess it was a month before they sold to Amazon. I was part of the first
"Zappos Insights" class. I was able to find my application, and posted it on
Twitter, sorry anyone who sees it who was involved:
[https://twitter.com/CameronBanga/status/1298465073430700033](https://twitter.com/CameronBanga/status/1298465073430700033)

No idea what people think of Zappos, their culture, and Tony in 2020. I was
able to interact with him I guess via email and in person from ~2008-2010?

Every interaction I had with Tony, and every story I heard, he was just Tony.
Personally happy for him, as 21 years at the head of any
clothing/fashion/design company has to be tough.

------
amrrs
I first heard (about) him on a Podcast called How I built this. It's a good
listen. [https://www.npr.org/2017/01/23/510576153/zappos-tony-
hsieh](https://www.npr.org/2017/01/23/510576153/zappos-tony-hsieh)

~~~
Rebelgecko
I first learned about him from reading about drunken Zappos employees ordering
a 100x100 burger from In-n-Out

[http://whatupwilly.blogspot.com/2006/01/in-n-
out-100x100.htm...](http://whatupwilly.blogspot.com/2006/01/in-n-
out-100x100.html)

------
throwawaysea
Zappos is an interesting experiment but I’m not sure what to make if it
overall. It isn’t ubiquitous or commonly known to everyday consumers. The
model of shopping online for something that requires personal fit just doesn’t
make sense to most people.

Hsieh has also made some strange choices internally like to reorganize using
“circles” (holocracy). I’ve heard secondhand that this experimental approach
to management didn’t work out in practice, that a lot of talent left, and that
the circles ended up having organically emergent managers anyways.

------
Elnaxon
He was interviewed a few years ago on "How I built this".

[https://www.npr.org/2017/01/23/510576153/zappos-tony-
hsieh](https://www.npr.org/2017/01/23/510576153/zappos-tony-hsieh)

------
gkanai
So 'holocracy' is a failure, alongside with Hsieh's fever dream of
revitalizing downtown Las Vegas. Holocray was always a creepy idea to me.

~~~
tyingq
It wasn't creepy to me, just unrealistic. Power structures form, whether you
want them to or not. So 'holocracy' still has managers, it's just unpublished
info who they are.

------
faramarz
When he came out with his book, I read it cover-to-cover in a night and so
enjoyed it for the engaging narrative. I wish him all the best.

------
watersb
Thanks for the shoes. They served me well.

------
willio58
I've always heard mixed feelings about Tony. I wonder if there are any HNers
who have a perspective they'd like to share.

~~~
seibelj
I am leery of any company that comes off with culty-vibes and that was the
impression I got from various media I read and watched about it. I’m sure it’s
great for business but not for me, I am free thinker. Same reason I think Ray
Dalio / Bridgewater is an insane asylum. I briefly worked with someone who did
a stint there and he embraced the principles / radical transparency thing and
it made him extremely hard (even obnoxious) to deal with.

~~~
switch11
the radical transparency thing is very interesting

When you embrace it, you will definitely piss off a LOT of people

society is all about 'being polite' and 'wearing a mask'

 __ __ __ __

if you stop being polite and stop wearing masks, while still maintaining
common courtesy

life becomes MUCH easier

 __ __

I 'll give you an example

2 of your friends have problems which prevent them from having a good
relationship

you have a frank talk with them

Hey, Jack, you need to get over your abandonment issues and commit to a woman
and marry her. You've passed on some pretty amazing women just because your
father walked away when you were 4

Hi Sophie, perhaps the reason you only date losers is that is your type.
Perhaps your type is guys who will cheat on you. Perhaps when your mother
divorced your father after he cheated on her with her sister, his secretary,
and the school principal, you should have realized that's genetically your
type. So you can either accept that you are making this choice and be at peace
with it, or you CHANGE your decision making process

 __ __ __ __ __ __ __*

guess what's going to happen

usually, 1 of them will get mad at you, then realize you are right, and then
make a change, and then your friendship will be much stronger

and the other will hate you for life. Well not hate you. Will avoid you
forever

 __ __

So that 's what radical honesty and radical transparency does

 __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __*

of course you have to be prepared for people to also be radically honest with
you

you find out things that are painful. Then you have to decide whether you will
embrace the honest feedback you are getting or run away from it

~~~
fatbird
Here's another problem with radical honesty: You _think_ you're right, and say
something that's going to be a painful but beneficial truth. But you might
simply be wrong: you don't have all the facts, you're missing some context,
your interpretation is hampered by your own issues, whatever. Now you've
caused someone pain and _haven 't helped them_, and maybe further contributed
to their problems.

Radical honesty works great with I-statements (e.g., "I stopped listening to
you a couple minutes ago because you're boring me") in terms of communicating
effectively without the baggage of courtesy. But radical honesty for criticism
rarely works as well as propenents think.

------
jheriko
Today I learned this existed.

