
YC China and Qi Lu - sama
https://blog.ycombinator.com/yc-china-qi-lu/
======
ulfw
I find it funny how YC is focusing only on places where the majority of the
world won’t or can’t easily work (US visa policy is atrocious and getting
worse every year + raising xenophobia in recent times) and China isn’t an easy
country to navigate if you don’t speak Mandarin, let alone succeed in as a
foreigner (for a variety of reasons). Asia and Europe are big places as are
Canada and Australia. Time to think broader than just US+China!

~~~
fsloth
1\. It's not about empowering everyone on the planet, it's about creating
companies which become billion dollar unicorns

2\. The probability of Unicornism is directly related to the size of the
market you can access. US is the biggest single market on the planet.

3\. Accessibility of markets: While EU is the second largest single market [0]
US companies have entered european markets just fine. On the other hand, to
operate in china, it's best to be a chinese company. Hence, to fund growth on
a global scale going native in china is an obvious move.

[0]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=List_of_countries...](https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=List_of_countries_by_GDP_\(nominal\)&mobileaction=toggle_view_desktop#Lists)

~~~
Gwaih1r
Are you sure nominal GDP is the right metric to be using to compare market
size? By adjusted (PPP) GDP it's China, EU and then the US. Those billions can
go a lot further in China and the EU than they can in the US.

[https://www.thebalance.com/world-s-largest-
economy-3306044](https://www.thebalance.com/world-s-largest-economy-3306044)

~~~
Eridrus
You want money in nominal terms, so PPP doesn't matter. EU is not really a
single market, they have unified regulations, which is helpful, but at the
very least language differences mean you're doing custom work for every
country.

~~~
chimeracoder
> EU is not really a single market, they have unified regulations, which is
> helpful

The EU doesn't really have unified regulations. I mean, regulations passed at
the EU level are unified, but countries have a great degree of country-
specific regulations themselves.

Now, technically states within the US have the ability to regulate things at
the state level, but due to various aspects of Constitutional law (the
Commerce Clause, and case law such as the Sherman Antitrust Act, etc.), there
are far fewer state-specific regulations that companies have to worry about
for interstate commerce within the US than international commerce within the
EU. Unless you're dealing with very specific regulated industries (money
transmission, health insurance, etc.), you generally don't have to worry about
a lot for basic interstate commerce in the US.

------
kaptain
The political concerns are real. It's too cynical to say that YC just cares
about money, though. There would be better ways to create an incubator than to
do it like this, if that were the case. One obvious question that hasn't been
raised is: "Why not base it in Taiwan?" It's still "China" (for some
definition of China), you can still get access to the talent that you want
(you just have to try a little harder), and you could still get access to the
market you're targeting.

It's not going to be easy, but it would better address the political and
humanitarian issues raised.

~~~
bnomb3
> "Why not base it in Taiwan?" It's still "China" (for some definition of
> China), you can still get access to the talent that you want (you just have
> to try a little harder), and you could still get access to the market you're
> targeting.

Native Chinese here. I don't think this is the case. It's not even close to
ideal to base in Taiwan given the political environment between the straits
nowadays. The policies are very unfriendly. Recruitment and market delivery is
even more complicated than between foreign countries actually.

~~~
Kagerjay
Adding onto this, in China you also have to deal with the Great Firewall as
well

The apps used in Taiwan and China are significantly different. In China, its
anything owned by tencent, baidu, or alibaba.

The app market in Taiwan uses mostly English offerings (google, facebook,
instagram) with a combination of Asianic/Non-china based apps including Line,
which is similar to Whatsapp or Wechat.

~~~
devy
> Adding onto this, in China you also have to deal with the Great Firewall as
> well

Not you don't. For most of the Chinese entrepreneurs create startups inside
China - their local market is big enough to not to have to worry about
internationalization. The big three you named there, Tencent, Alibaba, Baidu,
didn't worry about that at all for many years sine their establishments.

> In China, its anything owned by tencent, baidu, or alibaba.

There are certain truth to it, but there are exceptions too. I.E. Douyin/Tik
Tok(social vlogging) and Pinduoduo (e-commerce) have been immensely popular
and successful in recent years and weren't owned (or significantly owned) by
the big three.

------
jn1234
What will be the Code of Ethics? [https://www.reuters.com/article/us-china-
monitoring-insight/...](https://www.reuters.com/article/us-china-monitoring-
insight/from-laboratory-in-far-west-chinas-surveillance-state-spreads-quietly-
idUSKBN1KZ0R3)

~~~
est
Since when Code of Ethics equals to McCarthyism?

~~~
friedman23
Doing business in China is unethical.

~~~
dang
No flamebait or flamewars, please. Least of all nationalistic ones.

~~~
friedman23
It has nothing to do with nationalism. The PRC is a dictatorship that
currently has millions of people in concentration camps undergoing
reeducation, suppresses freedom of expression for its citizens, and crushes
minority cultures.

~~~
dang
Dismissing or condemning an entire country like you did, besides being
unsubstantive, certainly qualifies as nationalistic flamebait in the sense
that we use the term here. Please don't post like this to HN.

~~~
friedman23
I have nothing against the people of China but the PRC government and Chinese
business is so intertwined that I don't think it's possible to do business
with China and not interact or enable the PRC in any way.

~~~
dang
The trouble with this is that when people bring such grandiose and generic
rhetoric onto this site, the only place the discussion can go is into
flamewar, as others get even more grandiose and generic (or personal).

You're not adding any information when you post like this. It's just a big
opinion with a strong feeling attached. When someone else with the opposite
opinion comes along and blasts their opposite strong feeling, is any
information going to be exchanged? No it is not. Therefore it's off topic for
thoughtful conversation, which is what we're trying for here.

HN threads thrive on curiosity and specifics, wither on the gruel of
grandiosity, and burn under scorching rhetoric.

~~~
angersock
Okay dang, have a link:

[http://time.com/5366225/china-uighurs-detention-
report/](http://time.com/5366225/china-uighurs-detention-report/)

A million Uyghur and Muslims in camps. That's a sixth of a Holocaust.

~~~
dang
It's unsurprising that you Godwinned this thread, since where else can
monotonic escalation go? By doing that you've cemented the point.

If you guys want to fling furious links around, you need to find another site
to do it. It isn't part of thoughtful discussion—it's pure reflex.

~~~
throwaway2048
Complaining somebody "godwinned" a thread (which is a total misrepresentation
of godwins law, and even the person that coined it said this kind of
interpretation of it is stupid) is an unbelievably lazy dismissal of a
situation that is quite literally directly comparable to some of the worst
actions the nazis took.

If we aren't allowed to talk about and compare what the nazis did, how will we
learn from it?

If this comparison is not permitted in this situation, when will it ever be?

Really quite disappointed in your stance on this one.

And please, spare us the condescending attitude that we don't actually care
about this stuff. If we are going to veer off into "unstated positions and
assumptions" territory there is a white hot glaringly obvious apparent
conflict of interest with HN moderation shutting down discussion of human
rights abuses right as YC china launches, dont you think?

~~~
dang
On the internet, basically no one is "talking about and comparing what the
Nazis did" for the purpose of learning. It's a rhetorical device, the
cheapest, most sensational, lowest-information one around.

We actually moderate HN threads less, not more, when YC is the topic—this is a
longstanding principle on HN. But that doesn't mean we don't moderate them at
all. You only need to read a small sample of the moderation comments we post
to this site to see how consistent we are on these questions.

[https://hn.algolia.com/?query=by:dang%20national&sort=byDate...](https://hn.algolia.com/?query=by:dang%20national&sort=byDate&dateRange=all&type=comment&storyText=false&prefix=false&page=0)

[https://hn.algolia.com/?query=by:dang%20ideological&sort=byD...](https://hn.algolia.com/?query=by:dang%20ideological&sort=byDate&dateRange=all&type=comment&storyText=false&prefix=false&page=0)

[https://hn.algolia.com/?query=by:dang%20flamewar&sort=byDate...](https://hn.algolia.com/?query=by:dang%20flamewar&sort=byDate&dateRange=all&type=comment&storyText=false&prefix=false&page=0)

------
vadym909
Nice move YC. I know Qi is highly regarded by Chinese students. He seems like
a corporate vs startup guy though, so while I trust he has great access to
talent and connections in industry and Govt, I'm not sure he's the best person
to mentor a scrappy startup. Hope he has a good support cast.

~~~
rqs
Given the previous information, he's a capable person [0], and more
importantly, "honest and dedicated to work" (Originally:
自去年一月陆奇加入百度以来，公司发生了很多积极向上的变化。我和广大同学一样，都对他正直的人品、忘我的工作精神和在技术及商业领域的敏锐洞察力印象深刻……)
[1].

So I guess I'm not join the team of doubt this time for now.

(Before you click, grab yourself a translator first)

[0]
[https://www.zhihu.com/question/277693647/answer/396254674](https://www.zhihu.com/question/277693647/answer/396254674)

[1] [https://www.pingwest.com/a/167091](https://www.pingwest.com/a/167091)

------
jumelles
YC's got a very, very fine line to tread if they're serious about China - with
its limits on human rights and authoritarian tendencies, the Chinese
government is absolutely not to be trusted. I worry about what sort of
concessions tech companies have made and will make to gain access to the
Chinese market.

~~~
varsitywork
Exactly. I am not sure what Sam Altman is up to here, but this may be
something that Silicon Valley companies and the free world will regret deeply
in the future. He mentions

> to ensure that the benefits of that are fairly spread throughout humanity.

Yes, but technologies at the hands of a dictatorship is dangerous. This
morning, there was just a thread about Chinese surveillance/censorship
technologies being sold to other countries. Lord help us if the Chinese
government somehow gets its hands on a superior weapons tech, or smarter AI.

He also says

> Qi will also take over as the Head of YC Research, YC’s non-profit research
> lab.

We've heard several prominent lawsuits in recent months on how Chinese
nationals stolen and transfered US techs into Chinese companies (possibly
government involvement). Qi Lu literally said "The Chinese government
understands what AI can do, and they show a lot of commitment for sustained
and long-term investment...AI is part of China’s national five-year plan, and
just a few months ago, the Chinese government published a comprehensive white
paper to call out a systematic investment in AI."
[https://venturebeat.com/2018/01/09/baidu-coo-says-chinas-
gov...](https://venturebeat.com/2018/01/09/baidu-coo-says-chinas-government-
will-help-the-country-dominate-ai/). We're literally handing the Chinese
government some of the Western world's greatest knowledge and inventions.

This is scary scary thing. I am not sure what YC is thinking, allowing Sam
Altman to do this.

~~~
shard972
> Lord help us if the Chinese government somehow gets its hands on a superior
> weapons tech, or smarter AI.

Why wouldn't they get their hands on that? With companies like HPE existing as
now defacto chinese companies I just don't see how anyone can see this as a if
rather than a when.

> We're literally handing the Chinese government some of the Western world's
> greatest knowledge and inventions.

Isn't this great though? More innovation spread amongst the world. This is
what liberalism tells us, that there is no distinction between people living
under different nations.

If we can make the lives of chinese citizens better like we use AI to make
ours better, why should minor issues like government "stealing knowledge"
(whatever that is) be some big issue?

~~~
varsitywork
> Why wouldn't they get their hands on that?

They wouldn't because most of the western democratic countries are now
actively preventing China from stealing their technologies. US with the
empowered CFIUS, with the latest defense bill. Germany just prevented 2 key
companies from being taken over by China. France drafted anti-takeover
measures (aimed at China) amid foreign investment boom. EU is actively seeking
to put up united front against Chinese investment by end of year. And yet Sam
Altman is just going to give China free knowhow/technologies.

> make the lives of chinese citizens better

Are you not aware of the sesame credit enacted by the Chinese government?
Facial recognition in cameras installed everywhere? Millions of muslims in
reeducation camps in Xinjiang? Are you proposing we _give_ this government
even more power and innovation??

If anything, the Chinese government can take over a private startup quickly,
and use the tech against Silicon Valley companies.

~~~
shard972
> They wouldn't because most of the western democratic countries are now
> actively preventing China from stealing their technologies.

Thats all kind of small considering the kind of information that has already
been dropshiped out with no real punishments to the chinese government itself.

All these efforts are is trying to plug the holes, not realizing the holes
aren't just company buyouts but mostly espionage via chinese citizens. Even if
you lock them up, they still sent the data, nothing was really prevented.

> And yet Sam Altman is just going to give China free knowhow/technologies.

Yea? Because that's all government and politics. This is markets and profits.

> Are you not aware of the sesame credit enacted by the Chinese government?
> Facial recognition in cameras installed everywhere?

Yea alot of people actually like it, being able to get benefits for being an
upstanding system. I've heard it described as a system of karma.

Besides, we have the same things anyway, credit scores and CCTV, we just have
a different cultural view of it.

> Millions of muslims in reeducation camps in Xinjiang?

And we don't put muslims in jail at higher rates than the native populations?
See this just all seems like reflecting the fact that all countries have these
issues.

> If anything, the Chinese government can take over a private startup quickly,
> and use the tech against Silicon Valley companies.

Maybe, but that's the business risk you take. If they think that's the best
way to run their country, what right do we have to tell them they are wrong?
Especially when we aren't exactly innocent.

~~~
jumelles
This sort of whataboutism isn't helpful. We have the right to call out human
rights abuses; further, I think we have an obligation to use that right lest
we lose it. Are you aware that the average citizen in China simply cannot tell
their government that it's wrong? It doesn't matter what abuses the US or
other Western nations have or haven't done - the PRC is still in the wrong.

~~~
shard972
> the PRC is still in the wrong

Ill just leave it here by saying that to even label something in another
culture as "wrong" you first have to understand that the word "wrong" is
deeply entrenched in western culture and can't simply just be thrown around at
other cultures who have constructed entirely different systems of morality and
language to express them.

------
seanmcdirmid
Ah, this is the same Qi Lu who was basically responsible for the creation of
Bing, then got Office and AI in a reorg, and then somehow got pushed out by
Satya and went on to be CTO of Baidu for awhile.

The YCR connection makes sense, since he has a lot of experience in AI where
much of YCR is now at, but it will be interesting to see how he will interact
with Bret Victor's group. Are they going to start a YC-like incubator in
China? It will be interesting to see how this compares to Kai Fu's Innovation
Works.

~~~
curiousDog
Bing really is a pile of garbage though (perhaps a little better these days
but no where near as good as Google). I'm surprised he wasn't fired sooner.
Was he friends with Ballmer?

~~~
seanmcdirmid
Qi was actually one of the better SVPs at Microsoft, I think he was even on
the list for the CEO spot that Satya got.

He was given an almost impossible task in competing with Google basically from
scratch. Ya, he didn't completely succeed, but that isn't very surprising.

What happened at the end, I'm not really sure. I was pretty surprised when I
heard he was gone with Harry Shum taking over most of what he was in charge
of.

~~~
Analemma_
(I worked at Bing when this all went down.)

It was a strange departure. He apparently got in some kind of cycling accident
and took medical leave from Microsoft for recovery, but then just a few months
later he was a senior executive at Baidu. Not sure what was up with that.

But contra the GP, the general opinion both during and after Lu's tenure was
that he did a good job. It took a while, but Bing is profitable now, and he
did a lot to get that in motion. I imagine it can't be psychologically easy to
run an unprofitable department for years with the eye on long-term strategy,
especially in the Ballmer era, but he pulled it off. Bing is not the disaster
money pit that a lot of HN assumes it to be.

~~~
piggybox
As good as Google is, I'm glad we have alternatives to choose from. Bing is
actually pretty good in China where Google is not available.

~~~
client4
I use Bing as my primary search engine while in China. It isn't blocked, has
excellent search results, and is a general drop in replacement for Google/DDG.
Baidu is a bit harder to navigate as a foreigner. I don't even try with Baidu
Maps.

~~~
seanmcdirmid
Baidu sucks and isn’t really worth the time to use. Maybe it’s kuch better in
Chinese, but their English results are horrible.

------
gdsdfe
Hahaha people talking about ethics are silly ... This is business in a market,
potentially, at least 3x bigger than the current biggest market! Are you nuts?
Everybody's gonna do business in China! Everybody! In some form or shape.

~~~
jumelles
Caring about human rights is silly?

~~~
shard972
If you want to make it in China then yea, you probably shouldn't be too hung
up on human rights. It's not some universal concept that has applied
throughout the world for our existence so it's quite rude to pretend like
China has to bow to these systems of human rights we developed without china's
input.

~~~
wggl
> It’s not some universal concept

> it’s quite rude

> we developed without china’s input

It is hard to argue that detaining 1 million people for their beliefs[0] and
then torturing them[1] is justifiable by cultural relativism. Or massacring
people for that matter[2]. At that point you could argue for any atrocity.

It’s not rude it’s basic humanity. It’s not just completely reasonable to ask
a government in charge of more than a billion people to please exercise basic
humane standards, it’s morally atrocious to suggest otherwise. The Chinese
government deserves all they criticism they get for what they have done and
continue to do, and it’s arguable that we in the west deserve criticism for
enabling them.

[0] [https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-
china-45147972](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-45147972)

[1] [https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/asia_pacific/former-
inm...](https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/asia_pacific/former-inmates-of-
chinas-muslim-re-education-camps-tell-of-brainwashing-
torture/2018/05/16/32b330e8-5850-11e8-8b92-45fdd7aaef3c_story.html?utm_term=.4a132a1c28f1)

[2]
[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiananmen_Square_protests_of...](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiananmen_Square_protests_of_1989)

~~~
enwa
Most Americans just don't care. In a few years it will be as unpopular to talk
about China's exploits as it is talking about Israel-Palestine. You can argue
that Europeans don't care either, but at least the work culture and society is
different enough from China to make the latter unappealing. Much less so for
Americans.

------
tomglynch
Very exciting to have such a huge presence opening YC China. Keen to see what
comes out of this!

~~~
dmix
A response to the press is not legalese.

------
europeanperson
I assume that most of the people that commented on this article live in the
U.S. The majority of the world sees the U.S. as the world's biggest threat to
world peace, yet I don't see anybody on Hacker News claiming companies
shouldn't do business with the U.S. Since the war in Iraq, can we think of
something that the Chinese government has done that is worse? I disagree
strongly with the notion that the Chinese government's influence on the world
is somehow worse than the influence of the U.S. I do think there is something
to be said about boycotting governments that abuse human rights, but I think
it is hypocritical to think that somehow that doesn't apply to the U.S.

~~~
mattigames
USA is fairly variant in its own chaos, no president gets more than 8 years,
internet censorship by the state is looked down by all parties; people who
oppose the wars it goes can complain without fearing for their lives; a big
chunk of this behavior and similar ones is because the US is made from people
of a lot of races including Asians and Asia-descendants.

On the other hand China just recently confirmed a "president for life", that's
always a bad idea, remember the last "president for life" China had? Yeah...
So despite U.S. being more likely to start wars its open to change from the
inside; China is a solid big time bomb with little to no space for change and
once they decide to enter a war it will likely be the last one.

~~~
europeanperson
I agree that the U.S. is way more democratic than China. My argument is that
the wars that the U.S. has started have been way more damaging to the world
and, as a consequence, moral objections to doing business with China without
having those same objections when doing business with the U.S. just seems
hypocritical to me.

~~~
mattigames
The chance that in a couple decades the US is part of no big war is existent;
the chance that China is gonna become a democracy in a couple of decades is
null; so yeah, doesn't seem that hypocritical to me.

~~~
europeanperson
This is not a game of chance. Hundreds of thousands of people have died. Let's
base our principles based on what actually happens. I think it's ridiculous to
give the U.S. a pass because the killing might stop in a few decades.

~~~
mattigames
Well... you are using a website created by silicon valley millionaires in the
heart of America using a technology called internet created mostly by a
military organization (DARPA) to check news about american startups and
american technologies so that probably puts you a bit on the hypocritical side
of things...

------
vorg
> YC has been very successful in the world by believing that hackers – not
> businesspeople – can build the biggest companies.

Virtually every non-technologist businessperson who becomes a manager in the
IT industry will present themselves as a technologist. They will usually have
some real technical people at their beck and call to help with the stuff they
can't fake.

------
kazinator
> _Hand-held devices allow police to quickly check the content of phones on
> the street._

That's amazing to anyone who has struggled to connect an Android device to
Windows via USB just to access a file or two.

------
ksec
I guess that pretty much leaves out Hong Kong, Macau then?

The interview [1] by 36kr does a much better job of introduction and vision he
has for YC China. Unfortunately it is in Chinese only.

[1] [https://36kr.com/p/5148299.html](https://36kr.com/p/5148299.html)

~~~
vincvinc
Interesting! Unfortunately it doesn't seem to say where YC China would be
based.

Some interesting snippets (G Translated):

Lu Qi: YC China's new business will include

1) business incubation, 2) talent training, 3) research and 4) public welfare.

These are all in a way that Lu Qi's plan will operate in an unprecedented way.
He wants more than just new technology. Technology is only an ability to
change society. He wants to establish a new ecological support for new
technology to change the society. That is the correct way to open the new
world in his mind.

[...]

Q: How will YC China start?

Lu Qi: Among the four businesses, the first to start is the incubator.
Incubation camps are the first attempt at YC localization, but at the same
time it draws on the core of YC:

1\. The methodology of the incubator process and training content established
by Paul Graham;

2\. A network of YC alumni with more than 4,000 people. Alumni will help later
entrepreneurs, and for Chinese entrepreneurs, alumni networks around the world
can set up channels for offshore companies;

3\. The YC brand, which is incubated by YC, is equivalent to being recognized
and endorsed, and is more likely to be favored by investment institutions.

In other respects, YC China may develop its own entrepreneurship curriculum
and expect to reverse the influence of American entrepreneurs because I
believe that globalization is the best way to innovate. YC China's research
institute will be established under the YC Global Research Institute and will
establish cooperation with Chinese research institutions. Finally, the charity
business is hoping to focus on solving the impact of new technologies on
people's employment.

However, it is now the first day of the launch of YC China, and everything is
still very early. I only have one person now. The most important thing at the
moment is recruiting people.

[...]

Lu Qi: Because we need to build a new innovation ecosystem, so many players
with different roles can participate.

The first is Chinese investors. Because YC China will be closer to the early
projects, it hopes to establish good interaction with Chinese middle and late
investors. Also, YC China will also raise funds independently, and I hope to
get support from China LP.

Second, we and the big companies will also have a lot of cooperation. YC
China's investment projects may be acquired, acquired, or serviced by large
companies in the later stages.

YC China Research Institute will also establish contacts with government or
research institutions within the enterprise, and hopes to become China's
support for the country to become a big country in innovation.

[...]

Sam has said on many occasions that 10 companies will reach Google in the next
decade, three to four of them will be born in China, and more than 20 years of
professional experience tells me that these three or four companies must be
Believe in long-term companies.

------
koolba
Is this going to follow the same investment structure as YC “Classic” or will
that be changing as well? The amount of cash thrown at a YC company could go a
long way in China.

Will YC be taking a stand on China’s rampant theft of intellectual property or
tacitly encouraging it as part of “being a start up”?

------
ForrestN
It’s troubling that this statement is so overtly unserious. Has YC and its
surrounding culture become so insulated that they cannot see the obviously
self-defeating through-line in this statement?

“Our mission at YC is to enable more innovation than any other company in the
world, and to ensure that the benefits of that are fairly spread throughout
humanity.”

Do you really think it’s possible to ensure that the benefits of innovation
are spread fairly while simultaneously partnering with an oppressive, cruel
government in order to create vast pools of wealth controlled by a tiny subset
of individuals allied with that government?

I can understand why someone would try to get as rich as possible and would
turn a blind eye toward obvious moral compromise. I can also understand the
utilitarian impulse to “ensure that the benefits of [innovation] are fairly
spread throughout humanity.” But I can’t understand ignorance of the wild
contradictions between those two “missions.”

If you want to spread innovation equally, you should be working to support
dissident voices in China and you should be putting 95% of you and your
associates’ vast personal wealth behind the political project of reversing
Republican-engineered inequality here at home.

Helping people in China who you deem most likely to succeed (working in
harmony with the government, of course) to become even more successful is not,
in fact, helping to make the distribution of benefits among humanity more
fair.

TL:DR — Choose only one: fairness among humans _or_ the accumulation of vast
personal wealth by collaborating with governments that brutally oppress their
own citizens.

~~~
justicezyx
There are majority of society and economic activity that are neutral to
policitics.

Why cannot YC improve invocation by focusing on those areas?!

If your dad said harsh words to you, are you going to claim that you are made
inferior to normal citizen or you are working with a repressive parent?

~~~
mattigames
When you help a country get richer and that country has a history of human
right violations you are aiding the tyrants running the country even if you
declare yourself "neutral to politics" and even if you have the best of
intentions.

~~~
justicezyx
Isn't China's human rights situation got vastly improved with its improved
economy?

~~~
Sporktacular
No, it hasn't: "One Million Muslim Uighurs Have Been Detained by China, the
U.N. Says. Where’s the Global Outrage?"
[https://theintercept.com/2018/08/13/china-muslims-uighur-
det...](https://theintercept.com/2018/08/13/china-muslims-uighur-detention/)

~~~
justicezyx
OK OK Seems no country improved in terms of human rights. I cannot continue
this nonsensical discussion.

~~~
Sporktacular
Some have, but the topic is China. If you want to generalise it would make
more sense to pick better examples.

------
maxwin
Looking forward to YC South East Asia or YC Asia. Don't forget us.

~~~
repsilat
I don't think it'll happen. If you're from New York or Canada or Europe etc,
the advice is "Come to SV for the incubator, start an American company, and
run it from back home in the long run if you don't/can't move here."

That doesn't work so well for China because of capital controls and because
the Chinese business environment is so hostile to foreign companies.

------
mattigames
I assume companies with websites censored by the great firewall won't have
access to YC China funding?

------
vinceyuan
Not sure Qi Lu is the best person for this position.

Though Qi was born in China, he almost spent his all career time in the US.
Probably the time he worked in China is less than one year. You can't expect
this person knows China market, Chinese young people, Chinese companies well,
and has connections with people in China gov.

And he worked for big companies only (Yahoo, Microsoft, Baidu). He never
worked in startups. Can he find and invest good startups? I don't know.

Anyway, YC entering China is a good thing. Hope Google search will come back
to China soon.

------
contingencies
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qi_Lu_(computer_scientist)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qi_Lu_\(computer_scientist\))

------
j8hn
Someone told me that a webpage with the following would get your internet
access cut off in China: June 4th Tiananmen Square Massacre. Can someone
translate to Mandarin please.

~~~
seanmcdirmid
It used to be that if you searched for some bad things in google.cn or
wikipedia you would get put in a penalty box for 5 or so minutes where your
internet wouldn't work. Two things stopped this: first, everyone moved over to
https so ISPs couldn't tell what you were doing anymore; and google was
eventually blocked anyways.

Now, China solely relies on blocking entire websites or relying on compliance
of services. So Google is blocked, while Bing will actually harmonize their
search results in China (the search will still turn things up, but some
results might be hidden).

------
microdrum
Will this be located in the independent sovereign nation of Taiwan so as to
have the benefit of freedom of thought, religion, the rule of law, and private
property?

~~~
cercatrova
Of course not, it will be where the markets are, mainland China

------
echan00
Key question: will Chinese startups be required to register as US companies :)

~~~
echevil
Nope. There’re tons of Chinese startups already with or without YC. Would US
startups be required to register as Chinese companies if they receive Chinese
VC money?

~~~
seanmcdirmid
The US is open to arbitrary FDI so it doesn't matter. China's laws are
more...complicated. For example, you can't give stock options to non-Chinese
employees if your company is Chinese and not already listed, see
[https://www.chinalawblog.com/2018/03/china-scam-week-
part-4-...](https://www.chinalawblog.com/2018/03/china-scam-week-part-4-the-
china-stock-option-scam.html).

I'm not aware of any foreign funded startups in China currently. I mean, there
must be some small players with private foreign funding, but it is so easy to
get Chinese funding I'm not sure why anyone would even bother.

~~~
bgee
Most big tech companies (Baidu, Tencent, Alibaba) in China has received
foreign funding when they were "startups". See VIE Structure [0] (in Chinese).

[0]:
[https://www.zhihu.com/question/19634851/answer/13095653](https://www.zhihu.com/question/19634851/answer/13095653)

------
helloguys021
I'm currently living in Shanghai and I want to work for YC China. Will YC
China or Qi Lu post any job openings somewhere?

~~~
client4
Hey! I'm in Shanghai a lot and love meeting up with other tech people if
you're interested in a drink.

------
pnathan
This is a recognition that the Chinese world is a rising superpower, both in
innovation and in politics. Reminds me to study Mandarin!

I wish them _all_ the best, and I hope that the interactions with the great
qualities of YC produces an excellent step forward for China and its
technologists.

~~~
o0-0o
China is 3000 years years old and still considered an emerging market. Why do
you think that is?

~~~
qiqing
Well, prior to the 1600's, it was the dominant economy on the planet, and then
during the mid-later Qing Dynasty, there was the critical leadership error in
not sufficiently investing in the military instead of investing everything in
economic growth.

As a result, China was invaded over and over again by colonizers who levied
punitive fines for losing the war. And then there were a series of
revolutions. (I know, I was born in a part of Shanghai that's commonly called
"the French Concession.") The Bolsheviks were the first to give a bunch of
that money back ... maybe because they wanted an ally or because they had a
conscience.

Oh, also the Versailles Treaty, which ended WW I, involved a clause that gave
Shandong province to Japan (from German control), which caused students to
take to the streets in protest against the KMT who ratified it, the political
party that eventually lost popular support and went to Taiwan and prevented
the international community from recognizing the CCP's government as official
China because the KMT maintained that they're the official China.

Is that what you're referring to?

------
joshu
Congrats Qi!

------
philip1209
What effect does switching from Baidu to YC have on Qi's social credit system
rating?

~~~
hungryhobo
honestly i thought HN is better than this.

~~~
client4
Why? Are you willing to elaborate? This type of comment really doesn't add
value to the conversation.

~~~
hungryhobo
Working with YC wouldn't have much effect on Qi's social ratings.

Sorry I thought people had common sense

------
echevil
Really excited to see how YC model would work out in China!

~~~
Markoff
it won't, there are close to zero IT companies that cracked Chinese market

------
bing_dai
I'm wondering which city will the YC China be based in? Certainly one of
Beijing/Shenzhen/Shanghai I would guess.

~~~
seanmcdirmid
Beijing would make sense for political reasons, and it also has a strong
software culture. Shenzhen for hardware, and maybe Tencent. Shanghai...would
be the dark horse in that race, but it is the NYC of China.

I wish they would pick a western city, like Chengdu or Kunming...to become the
"san francisco" of China. But there is really not much in those places to work
with.

~~~
Jommi
Chengdu would be quite an interesting pick. There's a lot of startup activity
there for sure, and it's really far from Beijing.

~~~
seanmcdirmid
Well, I would prefer Kunming because of the weather, but less activity than
Chengdu or Chongqing.

------
carapace
Not a word, not a breath, of concern in that press release for the ethical
aspects of doing business with the Chinese Communists.

I think I'm gonna have to close my HN account. I don't even want to be _this
close_ to YC anymore.

(They practice _organlegging_ over there. Your wait time for a new kidney is
so low because there are prisoners kept as involuntary donors. Most of the
prisoners are incarcerated due to practicing something called Falun-Gong. They
are not violent criminals.)

------
fhe
this is a very interesting move by YC. I can't wait to see if the "YC
methodology" will work in China's startup scene. China's startup culture is
notably different from Silicon Valley.

------
sealon
赞

------
auganov
Encourage everyone to boycott YC. I certainly won't be applying again.

It's funny to watch YC do this, the one time I was actually invited to
interview with YC was when our Chinese co-founder submitted a rather
fraudulent[0] application. Angry that we wouldn't participate in his fraud he
disappeared and filed a frivolous lawsuit against us (which after many years
we won).

China's tech growth is built on IP theft and protection by a murderous regime.
It's a total antithesis of what made the Valley great. Big numbers put out by
some people in China don't change that.

If YC plans to invest in local Mainland startups:

\- ownership is going to tough, likely through dubious trickery

\- these uncertain legal rights expose YC to strong political pressures,
anybody that has vested interest in China knows it - if you want to have a
chance at cashing out your better be in good graces with the CCP

\- unethical behavior of YC pupils is inevitable, a PR nightmare in the
making. "it's not the real YC, it's YC China, don't blame us!"

You've destroyed your brand, now good luck getting a dollar out of China.

And again, a necessary reminder I like to tell everyone: China is actively
imprisoning and killing thousands of people for their religious beliefs.
Censorship is nothing.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organ_harvesting_from_Falun_Go...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organ_harvesting_from_Falun_Gong_practitioners_in_China)
Few people know it, I certainly didn't, I wish I have. Like many I've heard
something about the Falun Gong, I've seen the signs but never bothered to
looked into it. It's all real, it's big, almost Nazi scale persecution. Please
share it with anybody that does business with China.

[0] because in China I guess that'd only be normal-fraudulent, right?

------
angersock
So, how much money is there in PRC contracts for surveillance and social
credit software?

For reference, this is the market they're excited about joining:

[http://time.com/5366225/china-uighurs-detention-
report/](http://time.com/5366225/china-uighurs-detention-report/)

[https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2018/02/ch...](https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2018/02/china-
surveillance/552203/)

[https://techcrunch.com/2017/12/13/china-cctv-bbc-
reporter/](https://techcrunch.com/2017/12/13/china-cctv-bbc-reporter/)

------
erdosnew
is this the guy that served as former senior VP of Microsoft and later CEO of
Baidu?

------
notbeevil
look at the comments. What a fucking greedy world!!!

------
telltruth
Sam, this exec BS doesn't look good on you. If Qi Lu is the "one of the most
impressive technologiest" you have known then I would say you can be impressed
pretty easily. Qi Lu is the guy who couldn't do a squat with Yahoo so he
jumped ship to Microsoft. His main achievement there was to rename their
product to "Bing". Finally not getting anywhere for almost a decade, he
finally got pushed out and so he jumped on the Baidu train to get dip in to
Chinese internet boom. Again no special achievements whatsoever at Baidu and
virtually everything he touched was half assed and pure PR vaporware. You also
have to remember this guy is not _technologist_. He doesn't write code, do
design or understand modern software architecture. He is a suit which big
multinationals need for a public face, sales and marketing purposes.

So let's be honest here. YC needs to tap in to Chinese market's booming
startup scene. You can't do that without having native Chinese guy leading
these effort. You ideally need a suit who has network and hopefully also
understands the little details, you know, like code. But you got only the suit
who has network. You will try to do best with what you got. That we get it.

~~~
lunaru
When it comes to navigating China and your choices are Suit, Network, or Code,
you take the Network every time. Alcohol tolerance is a plus.

~~~
client4
Please tell me more about this drinking game ;)

------
PaulHoule
Of all places they could go.

China appearing to succeed at a time when democracy is on the ropes is a
dangerous trend for democracy.

When you import goods from China, you import repression.

Short-termed capitalists might think the repression applies just to workers,
but China is a country with no human rights, no property rights, no rule of
law. The Chinese government reserves the right to take anything you "own"
there. Somehow it is a capitalist and communist hell at the same time.

~~~
claydavisss
> When you import goods from China, you import repression

can you please tell us where the goods in your home were manufactured? why not
start with the ones with the glowing white apple on them?

if you won't change, why should anyone else?

~~~
PaulHoule
I have.

I own very little Apple hardware and only because I am a software dev.

I certainly buy many things from China because it is hard to never get
anything from China, but often you do have a choice.

I was at Target, for instance, and I bought a Samsung branded microwave oven
from Malaysia which has a 44/100 score from Freedom House as opposed to China
which has a 14/100 score.

I have also gotten into fixing old toasters and things because I've found that
recent models from China are based on inferior technology. When toasters
started coming from China they would burn up -- multiple times my mother and
law would buy them from Wal*Mart and thought she got a deal but it lastest
less than six months.

A few years later, Chinese toasters traded toasting speed for safety, then
they went from two slots to four slots to make up for lost time. It doesn't
help though if you are watching your carbs and want just one or two slices.

Old toasters fail in a predictable way and can be repaired easily. It might be
true about new toasters but why bother.

~~~
claydavisss
"very little Apple hardware" still means you own more Apple hardware than 95%
of the world's population, including 99% of the people who manufacture it.

but it sounds like you have rationalized this somehow, so why shouldn't
everyone else?

~~~
hguant
This is a fallacious argument, akin to conservative talk show hosts dismissing
the concerns of college students because they own iPhones.

Just because you exist within a system does not invalidate your complaints
about the system.

~~~
claydavisss
It is absolutely not "fallacious" \- if you are going to moralize, then you
need back it up with action.

The OP was not "complaining about the system" \- he was making a claim that by
doing business with China you are "importing repression". It is completely
fair that someone who claims I am willfully "importing repression" should be
held to the same standard.

OR, you can just go on believing that the rest of us are immoral thugs while
you are the lone enlightened paragon of virtue who would gladly rebel against
the odious powers that be...if only they would stop making such pretty toys!

I know, its all my fault

~~~
PaulHoule
Another thing about this dialogue is that is assumes that everybody is an
apple fan, has an infantile relationship with "their" smartphone, etc.

In many trade magazines and other commercial publications today a mention of
"your smartphone" is frequently part of a hypnotic induction to get somebody
thinking like a consumer.

------
lawnchair_larry
YC China? Why would you even consider this?

Sam has lost his mind.

~~~
apta
Why enable them even more? People have to watch out about what China is doing.
Unfortunately money speaks.

------
nullifidian
>to ensure that the benefits of that are fairly spread throughout humanity.

What about Uighur internment camps YC money will finance through taxes?

~~~
hungryhobo
what about the millions of people that have been lifted out of poverty in
China? they don't count?

~~~
ForrestN
This is a false choice—are you saying that internment camps were required to
lift millions out of poverty in China?

~~~
hungryhobo
no, i'm simply stating things that the tax money have gone to for the benefit
of chinese citizens, that most people here seem to ignore.

------
jmspring
Interesting to see YC embrace someone who went on leave at MSFT due to
injuries of a bike accident... or so the news claimed. Yet popped up at
Baidu/etc.

Next up YC will hire the Amazon Exec that puffed himself up and was fired
before he joined Uber?

~~~
jmspring
For reference - [https://www.recode.net/2016/9/29/13103352/microsoft-qi-lu-
to...](https://www.recode.net/2016/9/29/13103352/microsoft-qi-lu-to-exit)

------
knuththetruth
Is HackerNews accessible from mainland China? There’s been a lot of discussion
here recently about Google working with the CCP’s censorship regime, kidnapped
dissidents, and the interment of Muslims in Xinjiang. What impact will this
move have on the featuring and discussion of these stories?

~~~
justicezyx
Yes. I tried 3 weeks ago, it works. That's the only western site I frequnt and
still accessible from inside. My savior!

------
google_censors
It's amazing that a company that Paul Graham co-founded is getting into bed
with an authoritarian government notorious for its human rights abuses. To
succeed in China you can't go against the government. So is he going to be
pushing as hard for political change in China as he is in the US, or will he
remain silent as his company reaps the profits?

~~~
omarforgotpwd
There are a billion MORE people in China than in the US. There is enormous
industry and innovation there. China's government is terrible but that is
their issue to resolve. All we can do is speak out, but refusing to do
business hurts Chinese and American people far more than it hurts the Chinese
government. Our government kills many innocent people accidentally as part of
the normal course of war, but we consider it an acceptable place to do
business anyway.

~~~
scandox
I'm sure that some more fully articulated and sophisticated version of what
you've said forms the basis of YC's decision to continue pragmatically
pursuing its goal of being big and important (and incidentally making lots of
money).

~~~
omarforgotpwd
What, I'm not sophisticated and articulate at 3 AM? ;)

~~~
scandox
They've just had a hell of a long time to polish their excuses :)

------
claydavisss
Another me-too move by YC. Does anyone actually expect anything to come of
this?

~~~
erikb
Well, they are now an established business, the growth of US startups has
dwindled. So what do you expect?

