
Amazon Pulls Out of Planned New York City Campus - uptown
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/02/14/nyregion/amazon-hq2-queens.html
======
zelias
If Amazon had just quietly announced plans to expand to LIC without the "HQ2
Search" dog and pony show they almost certainly would still be here.

Google buys entire city blocks and nobody bats an eye. Turns out that publicly
shaking down cities across the US tends to draw out the opposition.

More publicity = more scrutiny = more angry opponents of your business
decision

~~~
siruncledrew
Amazon's spectacle reminds me of Lebron's "The Decision". It's one thing to
work out the details and make an announcement, but to purposefully turn it
into a show about "What can you do for me?" instead of "Here's what I can do
for you" made it not sit well with people.

Also, the pull-out letter also basically dumps the blame on state/local
officials for not wanting Amazon, despite not all stakeholders being present
at the table when discussions started.

~~~
bko
I don't see it as a "what can you do for me". A lot of Amazon's interest were
aligned with that of many New Yorkers. Both Amazon and most New Yorkers want
to have a strong transportation system and a diverse economy that doesn't just
rely on taxing bloated financial bonuses to pay for services. They also want
New York to be an in-demand tech hub with a deep labor pool and be a place
where people actually want to live. Cities should strive to be places where
employers want to invest. We aren't talking about handing over duffle bags of
money to Bezos. They agreed to offset some of NYC's exorbitant taxes and
regulations that make this city hostile to many businesses. And supposedly the
incentives were available to any employer of that size. The fact is that
having a large Amazon hub in NYC would greatly benefit the city and its
denizens

~~~
asdfasgasdgasdg
I'm of two minds on this issue, but: how can the city have good mass transit
if there are no tax dollars to pay for it?

~~~
rhizome
I'm under the impression that Amazon has never been a big taxpayer.

~~~
ehnto
Their employees still pay tax though. With tech wages as high as they are it
is probably non-trivial amounts.

I am not advocating for big businesses evading tax mind you. Just suggesting
it would probably still be a boon for the state tax income if a bunch of tech
wages migrated to the NY tax base.

~~~
C1sc0cat
And also make less demands on the social services

------
raiyu
After being a resident of NYC for 30 years and seeing the city change and
become a technology hub and just a financial center I think this is a real
loss for NYC.

It would also be in Long island City which would provide a huge influx of new
workers and move that neighborhood forward in development rapidly. The down
side would be that it would push some residents and business owners out but
this is simply a fact of life in NYC where on a long enough time line every
undesirable neighborhood eventually become desirable simply because of
increase in residents and increase in real estate prices. That would also
conversely make adjacent neighborhoods more attractive.

As for the tax breaks those would eventually be off set and it would still be
cheaper than the amount that was spent on a useless Subway line that took a
decade and really added no real capacity where it mattered.

~~~
RockyMcNuts
If you're talking about the 2nd Ave stub, yeah, it was crazy expensive but
it's serving 200K passengers a day, alleviating crowding on the Lex (entire
Lex is like 1.3m), and UES to Times Square is hella faster.

Anyway, for me it hinges on how much special treatment Amazon got, $100K in
tax abatements per job seems excessive, but others say it was pretty standard,
would have been a huge anchor tenant for NYC tech and LIC, so much smoke blown
on both sides it's hard to say ¯\\_(ツ)_/¯ .

If they want to sell and support AWS to bigcos in NYC they are going to need a
major presence regardless, not sure how much sense it makes for their other
businesses to have a big HQ in NYC.

~~~
lallysingh
$100k in taxes is maybe 6.5 yrs of a tech worker's state income (using 6.85%
state income tax @ 220k/yr).

That's before other taxes, like property (directly or indirectly through
rent), sales, etc.

They don't need 25k jobs to support AWS clients in NYC. It's not like they're
supporting on-site installations.

~~~
sbov
Usually 1 job means 1 person-year worth of work. So 6.5 years of a tech worker
would usually mean 6.5 jobs.

The jobs also tend to include things like construction workers, etc. So if you
hire 500 people to build the place over 2 years that's 1,000 jobs created.

------
SCAQTony
Hey, remember those Amazon insiders that bought property on the cheap?

"...Amazon employees are apparently eager to get a head start on the New York
City real estate game.

Condo sales in Long Island City are soaring following the announcement that
the Queens, New York, [a] neighborhood will host part of Amazon's HQ2, The
Wall Street Journal reports. According to The Journal, one brokerage firm sold
150 units in four days last week — 15 times its usual volume — after Amazon
announced plans to open a headquarters in Long Island City...."

[https://www.businessinsider.com/amazon-employees-buy-
apartme...](https://www.businessinsider.com/amazon-employees-buy-apartments-
in-new-york-city-2018-11)

~~~
coryfklein
That was my first thought on seeing the headline as well.

However I think those buyers will still do just fine. I doubt very many people
have lost money by investing in NYC real estate.

~~~
acjohnson55
Depends if they can hold. A lot of speculators are going to have to take an L
if they thought they were going to flip as Amazon ramped up. Especially if
they took debt to do so.

~~~
RubberShoes
The L only runs through Brooklyn

------
cletus
So this was (IMHO) a shit show from go to whoa. The dog and pony show was a
transparent shakedown where Amazon would still probably go where they were
always going to go.

The whole splitting HQ2 I think showed this. Like it's not even an "HQ" in any
sense of the word. It's just an expansion.

Also with talk of "25k jobs"... what jobs? Are we talking software engineers
or warehouse workers? There's a difference.

I don't know the inner workings of this but it seems like Cuomo was the driver
here with de Blasio on board. This was a missed opportunity. NYC needs several
things from NYS that are politically unpalatable upstate. Top of that list is:

\- Property tax reform; and

\- Congestion pricing.

NYS grossly favours SFHs for property taxes. For example, a $3m brownstone in
Park Slope I saw had ~$700/month in property taxes. A similarly priced
apartment would have more like $1500-2000/month taxes. A $100m apartment would
be taxed at ~$15k/month.

NYC has on several occasions tried to introduce congestion pricing on people
driving in or into Manhattan (something I 100% support) but the efforts have
failed as this is the jurisdiction of NYS and NYS has no interest in this (so
far).

Why not frame this issue as NYC supporting these efforts to fix issues with
NYC like these? The deal may have gotten much more traction were this the
case.

So I understand the need for government intervention in large projects, say if
Amazon were to build 8m sq ft of office space. Regulatory approval can be nigh
on impossible.

That much office space is hard to find in NYC. I think Amazon missed the boat
with Hudson Yards (probably the last place this would've been possible in
Manhattan).

I agree with other commenters that the net effect of this is about zero.
Amazon is trying to have a PR moment. They'll still expand in NYC as it suits
their needs. They'll still get tax breaks like any large corporation in
NYS/NYC would.

This really is just a corporate tantrum.

~~~
quxbar
> what jobs? Are we talking software engineers or warehouse workers?

Workers with an average salary of $150,000, I think it's disingenuous to act
like you don't know that but you're also an expert in property tax reform.

~~~
cletus
Pay one person a salary of $1m and you can pay 9 people $55k to average $150k.
The average means nothing. Will there some site lead earning $20m/year
bringing up the average?

~~~
all_blue_chucks
25,000 x $150,000 = $3.75 Billion dollars of new taxable income, regardless of
how it is distributed.

~~~
QML
Those billions aren’t uniformly taxed: that’s what they were pointing out.

~~~
hannasanarion
Actually, those billions wouldn't have been taxed at all. That was part of the
deal: Amazon gets all of the income taxes that are paid by their employees in
the first ten years.

~~~
kevindong
To be more specific, this part of the deal is called the Excelsior Jobs
program. It rebates to Amazon 6.85% [0] of the wages earned by the company's
employees, which effectively does mean that income taxes get paid out to
Amazon (in reality, the income taxes paid plus a little more due to the NYS
tax brackets [1]).

That being said, there's no city-level income tax rebate. Assuming the tax
brackets currently in effect hold steady until the full 25k jobs promise was
fulfilled, the city of New York would get ~3.8% of $150k * 25k jobs = ~$142.5
million/year once the 25k job mark is reached [2].

[0]: [https://esd.ny.gov/excelsior-jobs-program](https://esd.ny.gov/excelsior-
jobs-program)

[1]: Note how the 6.85% bracket only applies to income above $215.4k; income
above $1.08 million gets taxed at 8.82%; consequently Amazon will get more
rebated than employees paid in income tax the vast majority of the time. See
the second table of page 57:
[https://www.tax.ny.gov/pdf/current_forms/it/it201i.pdf#page=...](https://www.tax.ny.gov/pdf/current_forms/it/it201i.pdf#page=57)

[2]: The ~3.8% is approximated based off of page 69 of
[https://www.tax.ny.gov/pdf/current_forms/it/it201i.pdf#page=...](https://www.tax.ny.gov/pdf/current_forms/it/it201i.pdf#page=69)

------
forkandwait
Of all the places, why did NYC offer Amazon subsidies? NYC actually has too
many good jobs for the amount of space...

I am also proud of my cantankerous fellow New Yorkers who fought this.

~~~
untog
A clarification: NYC didn't offer Amazon subsidies. New York _State_ did.
That's really the core of the tension - the whole deal was negotiated in
secret then announced to the world as a finished product. That tends not to
earn you goodwill with city politicians you deliberately excluded from the
process.

~~~
quartz
My understanding was that Amazon was intending to use existing city programs
to fund $1.3B of the $3B in incentives, most of that tied to the number of
employees they hire to work in specific zones including LIC [1].

Why do they have to involve the city politicians in the decision-making
process if they don't need any special treatment?

[1] "While New York City has not offered Amazon any direct subsidies, the
company also plans to take advantage of two city tax breaks that will further
sweeten the deal by nearly $1.3 billion.

One is the Relocation and Employment Assistance Program, which offers
businesses moving to certain parts of the city a tax credit of up to $3,000
per employee for 12 years. The program will benefit Amazon to the tune of $897
million, Gov. Andrew Cuomo said.

The other is the Industrial & Commercial Abatement Program, which provides
property tax abatements. It will be worth nearly $400 million to Amazon, Cuomo
said."

([https://patch.com/new-york/new-york-city/nys-amazon-deal-
wha...](https://patch.com/new-york/new-york-city/nys-amazon-deal-what-it-
holds-queens-
company?fbclid=IwAR0pOqcCzmQkN2Wdt3i_7f9hCd_7JwylL0hGUuANN8hSk04lgorEmgCKfLk))

------
aaronbrethorst
Google didn't need any dog and pony show or significant forms of corporate
welfare (that we know of) to announce a doubling of their presence in New
York.

[https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2018/12/17/google-...](https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2018/12/17/google-
announces-billion-expansion-new-york-city/)

~~~
akhilcacharya
Doubling their office there still pales in comparison to the headcount
projected for LIC. 7K max vs. 25k targeted for Amazon.

Amazon already has a presence in NYC.

~~~
taude
Would be interesting to know how many employees Amazon currently has in NY. I
wouldn't be surprised to find out it's already in the thousands.

~~~
NathanKP
It is in the Amazon statement: "There are currently over 5,000 Amazon
employees in Brooklyn, Manhattan, and Staten Island, and we plan to continue
growing these teams."

Disclaimer, I'm one of those 5k. Currently I work from home 99% of the time
because the office spaces Amazon has in NY aren't fantastic. It would have
been nice to have a new headquarters building, but I'll still be enjoying
working from home now I guess.

~~~
badfrog
> There are currently over 5,000 Amazon employees in Brooklyn, Manhattan, and
> Staten Island

How many of those are working in tech? When I interviewed at Amazon NYC in
2016, I think there were only around 100 software engineers there. Has it
grown a lot since then?

------
cbdumas
If Amazon hadn't turned this whole "HQ2" thing into a national drama they
could have built a huge presence there without riling up so much backlash.
Hopefully this ridiculous stunt is a lesson to them.

~~~
phaedryx
Unfortunately, I think they learned that cities will bend over backwards for
them and offer up tons of free data and tax incentives.

~~~
cbdumas
<speculation> Honestly I think they had only a very few locations in mind when
starting this "search" anyway, but wanted to frame it as this big, open-ended,
national competition in order to wring the highest dollar amount out of their
favorite spots. They were never going to take the risk of attracting workers
to Tulsa, Detroit, or {insert other city in Middle America} over an existing
large pool of talent in an attractive metropolitan area. </speculation>

~~~
PhoenixReborn
While it is conjecture, I think this speculation is accepted relatively widely
at this juncture. So given the farcical nature of the HQ2 competition, I think
it's all the better that NYC doesn't bend to Amazon and allow them to dictate
the terms at which they enter an already competitive labor marketplace.

------
slg
I wonder how many Amazon employees sold their nice new condos in the last
couple weeks.

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18503434](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18503434)

~~~
josefresco
I wonder how many Queens residents sold their apartments/condos _before_ this
news broke? Talk about timing. I know of one person who was drooling at this
unexpected windfall and will now be very... sad.

~~~
schnevets
Between this and the L train drama impacting Williamsburg, I wonder how much
volatility the outer borough housing market can take.

Sure there has been a housing bubble there for a decade, and I'm certain there
are some real estate insiders benefiting from this arbitrage, but this kind of
dysfunction can't be good for the economy.

------
annexrichmond
> We do not intend to re-open the HQ2 search at this time. We will proceed as
> planned in Northern Virginia and Nashville, and we will continue to hire and
> grow across our 17 corporate offices and tech hubs in the U.S. and Canada.

So this whole HQ2 thing ended up being a grand waste of everybody's time.

~~~
rexreed
Not for those of us in the N. Virginia region. I'm celebrating the
announcement as a double-down on our region

~~~
rexreed
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17503917](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17503917)

------
JDiculous
As someone who lived in NYC for 5 years, I can't understand how anyone can not
consider this a loss to NYC. Don't get me wrong I hate corporate welfare as
much as anyone else and I have no desire to work for Amazon because it seems
like a corporate sweatshop, but 25k jobs at an average $100k+ salary would've
been a boon to the city, even despite the $3 billion in tax subsidies. The
additional revenue for workers and taxes would've been a huge boost to the
economy and would've more than paid for itself.

The jobs would've been in Long-Island City, which is basically a glass tower
condo ghost town with practically no office/business presence. The subway for
people commuting into LIC for work is probably currently fairly empty, so the
subway could accommodate them. (The same cannot be said of the reverse.
Commuting from Astoria, Queens or Williamsburg, Brooklyn into Manhattan for
work during rush hour is horrible).

I agree that politicians need to do a better job of accommodating those who
are displaced by gentrification. NYC housing costs are insane (as someone else
mentioned we undertax single-family homes and $100m penthouses), the subway is
failing, etc.

Perhaps the deal would've gone through had politicians better communicated how
the $3 billion subsidy package was not just a handout to Amazon but would
actually improve the city and the well-being of its residents.

But given the city's failure to build affordable housing (not the "affordable
housing" buzzword where luxury apartments are subsidized to low income people
who enter a lottery, but doesn't actually meaningfully increase affordable
housing stock) and fix the subway, maybe the city isn't capable of managing
itself and stemming the pitfalls of gentrification, and so the opposition was
fired up by this awareness. It seems that so long as fundamental aspects of
NYC like its subway system are managed by NY State, we will never see any
meaningful change at anything more than a snails-pace. Perhaps NYC should be
fighting for independence from NY State to be in full control of its own
destiny rather than being at the mercy of politicians in Albany with a poor
track record of attending to the city's needs. (sorry I got derailed there a
bit, just a stream of thought)

~~~
Voloskaya
> "maybe the city isn't capable of managing itself and stemming the pitfalls
> of gentrification"

You seem to understand pretty well why some are not seeing this as a loss
after all.

~~~
JDiculous
Yea, the more I research this, the more I realize that this is the crux of the
issue. The residents have no faith that the politicians will stem
gentrification.

The affordable housing crisis and congestion will only be further exacerbated.
Your average Queens resident who's already barely making her rent will see
rents skyrocket, forcing her to move out and further into the boondocks come
lease renewal time.

I think the opposition reflects a dissatisfaction with the
politicians/administrators who run their city more than a hatred of Amazon.

------
berbec
Not going to miss them. Local governments giving huge tax breaks in exchange
for stadiums, businesses relocating never works out.

~~~
kodablah
I have plenty of examples where it works out. The town I live in gave large
tax breaks not too long ago and it's working well. Nearby, sports facilities
were financed with balloted measures at the request of the public, sometimes
in conjunction with the local ISDs who share the facilities. The vast majority
are benefiting from this public/private economic cooperation.

~~~
JohnFen
I can offer a counterexample. In the city I live in, there have been several
major tech companies that were given enormous tax breaks and other gifts in
exchange for moving in. They'd move in, build their buildings and factories,
and everything would look rosy for 3-5 years. Then they'd cut and run, leaving
the city worse off than if it had never done the deal in the first place.

~~~
kodablah
Yup, goes both ways. Assuming the companies promised more and underdelivered,
your city's economic council should have written the contract-break into the
contract. Or assuming the companies didn't promise that much, your city seems
to either have done a deal aware of the potential of negative outcome (and
accepted it) or did not do due diligence. But it doesn't discount the idea of
economic incentives as a whole due to poor city planning in this case (or a
gamble, whichever it was).

~~~
JohnFen
> it doesn't discount the idea of economic incentives as a whole

I never said it did.

However, if you really need to make a contract iron-clad in order to protect
yourself (and good luck with that!), that's a very strong indication that the
entity you're dealing with is untrustworthy and you shouldn't be getting into
bed with them in the first place.

The problem with most major corporations (and particularly major tech
companies these days) is that they are not trustworthy actors.

------
supernova87a
As much as the anti-gentrification politicians would claim a small victory,
this is a loss for NYC and the future development / resilience of its economic
base.

Cities will keep on losing this kind of battle until some form of government
or policy arises to counter the power of corporations (which are de facto
increasingly taking the role of governments). Under our current regulations
and incentives, I'm actually glad to see Amazon flex its political capability
and teach NYC a lesson in what happens when you let vocal minority dictate
public policy. Let examples like this teach us how broken our laws are.

Note I am equally glad to see some day that government (federal, state) come
up with policies that stop cities and states from undercutting each other to
get a temporary revenue / population / popularity boost at the expense of
giving away the farm just to get it (until you find out it wasn't worth it,
and get to try and remember that at the next election). Or god forbid,
actually create policies that in the long-term stimulate as many jobs as a
corporation might in a single swoop.

~~~
djsumdog
Isn't this exactly the opposite? Amazon would have destroyed the general
economy in NYC like they did in Seattle. This is the city ignoring the big
corporation and listening to their people. NYC doesn't need Amazon. It needs
to fix it's rail system.

~~~
marcell
And how do you fix the rail system? With money from... taxes... from well paid
workers, for example.

I think a lot of people get so caught up in hating on tech workers and
opposing gentrification they forget where the money comes from.

~~~
fastball
The average employee in that 25k cohort would need to be paying $12k worth of
state taxes to NY _every year for ten years_ in order to recoup the $3B tax
break figure.

~~~
adventured
Average $160,000 household income per employee = ~$14,000 per year in state +
local income taxes. That's ~$8,500 per year just to the state in income taxes.

Include all taxes from 25,000 employees + their families (property taxes,
sales taxes, etc), and it's a very likely $4.5 to $5 billion over ten years to
state & local coffers from the employees.

And that's just the direct benefits. It excludes any taxes Amazon corporate
would pay, such as property taxes on any real-estate they buy over that ten
years. It also ignores the potential for additional expansion in that ten
years (Amazon will more than double in size over that time, to half a trillion
dollars plus in sales, I'd bet on more than 25k employees).

It would have easily paid for itself, which was actually never in dispute.
People didn't like it regardless of the fact that it would have paid for
itself. They disliked the idea of giving Amazon anything.

~~~
fastball
How do you figure that a family is paying more in property tax / sales tax
than a _not_ family? Property size is a function of income, as is sales tax,
and you've already included income in your calculations.

The other issue is that this is assuming literally all 25k employees would be
new residents of NY. Assuming this is true (which it probably wouldn't be),
that also means that the city needs to maintain infrastructure for at least
50k new residents (probably more like 75k assuming an average family size of
3). That's not an insignificant amount of new people who require public
services.

Regardless, ($14k * 25k * 10 = $3.5B). Not that much more than the initial tax
rebate, and not accounting for any additional costs to the city. Also assuming
that the rate of tax-paying by employees remains consistent, and that they
don't cut any staff in HQ2, which is far from certain.

As to:

    
    
      Property taxes on real-estate owned by AMZN
    

You realize any property that Amazon would purchase is already owned by
someone, right? And that the current owner is already paying property taxes.

Amazon already has an office in NYC. If they want to expand in NYC they can.
Amazon growing in NYC is not _at all_ predicated on the existence of HQ2. The
only probable reason Amazon would continue to expand in NY specifically would
be for _more tax breaks_. Which kinda defeats the argument that "Amazon will
grow and we can collect more taxes".

------
FilterSweep
2018: _Billions in tax breaks to amazon will add thousands of jobs_

2021: _After hitting 2020 growth targets, Amazon quietly lays off 5000_

It’s not like we haven’t seen this before.

~~~
ajhurliman
Have we? It seems like the number of employees has increased every year:
[https://www.statista.com/statistics/234488/number-of-
amazon-...](https://www.statista.com/statistics/234488/number-of-amazon-
employees/)

------
Justin_K
If these states are so flush in cash that they can give tax breaks, they
should go to small business... not the richest guy in the world. Why should
government intervene in in a free market and give one business a massive
advantage over everybody else?

~~~
kevin_thibedeau
NY has multiple programs to attract small business:

[https://esd.ny.gov/excelsior-jobs-program](https://esd.ny.gov/excelsior-jobs-
program) [https://esd.ny.gov/startup-ny-program](https://esd.ny.gov/startup-
ny-program)

~~~
elicash
Wasn't the NY proposal to take $1.2 billion in Excelsior tax credits and give
them to Amazon? And I think Start-Up NY is an Excelsior program?

I mean, I think it's great if there's now budget to increase support for small
businesses.

------
tribune
1\. $3B in "incentives" sounds like a lot, but would this have been a good
investment? i.e. would the city and State have gotten a reasonable return in
the long run?

2\. New York already has a lot to offer in terms of labor market, real estate
for employees, and access to capital markets. Did Amazon really need
incentives to want to be in NYC?

3\. No huge loss for either party. NYC doesn't need Amazon, and Amazon can
make the little people dance for them somewhere else.

~~~
shaki-dora
It isn’t about the net loss or win for NY.

The problem with subsidies is that they needlessly cost money in a zero-sum
competition between cities. It was always clear that Amazon would build
somewhere. A race to the bottom competition over the exact location leaves
everyone but them worse off than the alternative, which is coordinating to
refuse to engage in it, like any sane economy like the EU does.

~~~
jumbopapa
It's almost like there is a demand for Amazon to have a presence in the
community.

~~~
hannasanarion
Demand and price are not the same thing unless both sides have perfect
information. The fact that Amazon ran a secret auction for their HQ2 compelled
New York to overspend, for fear of missing out.

------
SethMurphy
The Allowance of a helicopter pad shows how tone deaf the proposal was. Never
mind the safety issues of a helicopter flying over a heavily populated area,
the noise of one was such an issue in Brooklyn that they banned any flights
over land as a quality of life issue (other than police or news helicopters I
think). They still come close enough to the land that they are a nuisance if
you live near or enjoy the new publicly accessible waterfront areas.

EDIT: Apparently there were limits placed on 120 landings a year and it was on
the waterfront campus mitigating some of the safety concerns. It was still a
major concession given though that does nothing I can think of to add to the
community.

------
thisisweirdok
This Amazon process has been complete shit for every idiot city who jumped on
(my city included). I call the mayor's line here to leave messages about stuff
like this every time it happens and say "see, you dummies this was a bad deal"

This has happened with Amazon, Casinos, GE, The Olympics, F1 racing... cities
need to not be so fucking desperate to sell out their residents to the highest
bidder.

I'd be more amenable to a property tax increase than any of this garbage.

------
hello_friendos
Good, Amazon shouldn't be getting any subsidies just for having their offices
in a city.

~~~
lovecg
Even if the city gets back much more in tax revenue?

~~~
CydeWeys
No, because then it's a race to the bottom and all other companies start
expecting these same deals (or even better), and eventually you do end up with
a situation where the city does _not_ get back more in tax revenue.

It's simple negotiation; you may lose some money on that one deal, but you'll
gain more in the end by not decreasing the value of all subsequent deals.

~~~
SilasX
Or, you'll lose out on all the businesses that won't start or expand there
because the baseline level of taxation is too unfavorable for the economy (in
either sense of the word) that the city offers.

It's almost like taxing easily-moveable economic activity is a bad idea.

~~~
CydeWeys
And yet there's a huge number of businesses that do have presences in NYC
because the tax revenue funds all sorts of things that make NYC attractive to
businesses that can't be gotten elsewhere.

A lot of what makes NYC great (like the 24/7 public transit system, the best
in the country) costs serious money to operate. You need to get that money
from tax revenue.

And businesses aren't actually easily-movable, not at all.

~~~
SilasX
>And yet there's a huge number of businesses that do have presences in NYC
because the tax revenue funds all sorts of things that make NYC attractive to
businesses that can't be gotten elsewhere.

Most of which were present there because they set up a long time ago. The
current environment makes it so that you pretty much have to get a discount to
make it worth starting there, per the famous reddit comment:

[https://www.reddit.com/r/nyc/comments/9wploz/ocasiocortez_bl...](https://www.reddit.com/r/nyc/comments/9wploz/ocasiocortez_blasts_tax_breaks_for_amazon_says/e9mdind/)

>And businesses aren't actually easily-movable, not at all.

"Where they decide to locate new offices" is.

~~~
CydeWeys
If that's true, then fix it for _all_ businesses, not just for Amazon. Amazon
deserves the white glove treatment the least.

~~~
SilasX
On that point, I agree.

------
saosebastiao
Surprise, backroom sweetheart deals between businesses and politicians are
wildly unpopular.

And it was dumb for Amazon to seek out subsidies anyway. Amazon only needed
one criteria to have a successful HQ2: A willingness to accommodate new
housing demand. $3B in subsidies would be dwarfed by the increase in salaries
from higher costs of living. If a city can allow housing to be built, and keep
up with Amazon's hiring demand to keep housing prices flat, that alone would
be worth far more than any city or state could ever hand over to Amazon in
subsidies.

------
RPLong
I guess I didn't realize how many commentators here were New Yorkers. XD

Everyone's moving to more comfortable places with lower costs of living. NYC
is not an attractive place for job candidates unless those candidates are
already in NYC. Even companies with a strong presence in NYC are expanding in
places like Nashville, Omaha, Dallas, Denver, etc. rather than in NYC.

At some point, New Yorkers ought to ask themselves why everyone wants to move
to these nice midwestern cities.

~~~
ianstallings
Truth. I took a lower paying job in the midwest, and I can now save a lot more
money, while also living a less stressful life. NYC is a really cool city and
I enjoyed living there. But I "did my time".

I think more and more tech workers are going to wake up to the fact that while
mega-city life can be cool, it's not the only way to live.

~~~
sotojuan
I’m not sure why tech workers think they’re special. Almost everyone that
moves to NYC for a good office job goes through this. Moving to a suburb or
another city after age 35 is a stereotype. So is staying here and enjoying a
DINK or single life (unless you have a lot of money!).

Job-wise, the NYC tech market is as good as ever.

~~~
ianstallings
This may shock you but we have cities out here. I live in one and walk to
work. Not the suburbs. That being said, what is your overall point?

------
legitster
A bit disappointed. The narrative really turned on Amazon during this process.
But I feel like every organization shops around for deals - Amazon was the
first company to do it transparently and openly tell cities what they have or
are missing. There was a real opportunity to bring tech industry to heartland
cities.

In the end all they proved was this kind of stuff should just stay in the
backroom. And good paying tech jobs stay on the coasts.

~~~
jandrese
I would't feel too bad for Amazon. They are the ones that made it a big
spectacle and dragged it out for far longer than necessary or wise.

~~~
legitster
I don't necessarily feel bad for Amazon - I guess I just hate how
disappointing the result was. Transparency lost.

They likely could have avoided it if they had just selected one of the dark
horses like Indianapolis or Saint Louis.

~~~
untog
> Transparency lost.

The process was anything but transparent. "Cities’ Offers for Amazon Base Are
Secrets Even to Many City Leaders":
[https://www.nytimes.com/2018/08/05/technology/amazon-
headqua...](https://www.nytimes.com/2018/08/05/technology/amazon-headquarters-
hq2.html)

------
whatok
[https://blog.aboutamazon.com/company-news/update-on-plans-
fo...](https://blog.aboutamazon.com/company-news/update-on-plans-for-new-york-
city-headquarters)

~~~
tomstockmail
"We do not intend to reopen the HQ2 search at this time."

I wonder if this is to let some of the news cool, work behind the scenes with
some of the previous offers, then surprise announcement down the road.

~~~
Cshelton
It has already been rumored that Dallas is working with them, still. The head
of the initiative, from the start, has stated, "We have never ended talks with
Amazon, they are still ongoing". That was as of earlier this week/last week.

------
rexreed
As someone from the N. Virginia region I think this is a huge win for our
region. And I think it will do great things to continue the grow the region's
technical strength. I'm glad they can focus on building a single larger HQ and
not two equal HQs, which always seemed odd to me anyways. NYC is not too far
on the Acela line to DC. And this might spur development of more high speed
rail or hyperloops or whatever.

------
aeriklawson
Amazon is being a huge diva. They enjoy public support and the deal was
guaranteed.

I remain unconvinced that they care about local politicians' angry takes on
their campus (who they probably expected to hate it in the first place).

------
bluedino
>> _We do not intend to re-open the HQ2 search at this time_. We will proceed
as planned in Northern Virginia and Nashville

Weird.

~~~
the_gastropod
I'm not sure it is. There was always a suspicion that Amazon knew from day one
they wanted to open a HQ in NYC—they just put on this show to get cities into
a bidding war to provide the biggest tax break. I don't imagine the publicity
around having NYC tax-payers subsidize the world's richest man's business
dealings is positive.

~~~
mturmon
Amazon also got a lot of free, confidential data on growth prospects from
midsize to large cities all across the US, which would be useful for planning
other facilities like warehouses and retail outlets like Whole Foods.

------
arx1422
An unfortunate missed chance for NYC to diversify its tax base away from a
dangerous reliance on the financial sector.

------
jotjotzzz
NYC Subway is already falling apart. Fix that first! Less corruption, and get
rid of de Blasio while we're at it.

~~~
CydeWeys
Why would that be an either-or thing? I'd rather have Amazon here with no tax
subsidies so that total tax revenue increases so that there's more money to
fix the subways.

~~~
thex10
> Why would that be an either-or thing?

ask the state government, who's happy to give Amazon the tax break but not
nearly so happy to fund the agencies running its largest city's transit.

~~~
jotjotzzz
This! They are deferring the inevitable time when the subway is no longer
sustainable. Are we waiting for another Sandy?

------
CydeWeys
A shame. As an employee of a Big N company in NYC, this would have provided
upward pressure on my salary (even if personally I wouldn't want to go work
for Amazon).

But I didn't like the big tax breaks, and as a taxpayer of the city I'm glad
my money won't go towards subsidizing the expansion of one of the world's most
valuable companies.

It's too bad Amazon wasn't willing to pay their fair share.

~~~
drugme
_As shame. As an employee of a Big N company in NYC, this would have provided
upward pressure on my salary._

The fact that that's all you can think about ...

is exactly why people are starting to lose their love for Big Tech in general.

~~~
Erik816
Yes that's all the poster can think about. If you refuse to read the next
sentence.

~~~
drugme
I read it also but on balance he did say, after all -- "A shame".

------
zw123456
This reminds me of the asshole billionaires who shake down cities to get a
free stadium for their stupid football, basketball or whatever team and have a
bunch of regular people pay for their toy.

------
lordleft
I would have liked to have had Amazon become a bigger presence here in NYC,
but I strongly disagreed with their tactics and use of a contest to facilitate
a race to the bottom among municipalities.

------
40acres
I think this is more on the city and state government than Amazon itself. Of
course Amazon was going to push for the sweetest deal they could get but Cuomo
and DeBlasio bent the rules too far and the massive push back was justified,
if I recall correctly the city council was going to use some really iliberal
moves to get this tax package through.

NYC could've had Amazon, even with decent tax breaks, but the government just
went too far without the support of its constituents.

------
zxcvbn4038
Some practical considerations that nobody talks about are 1) the 7 train that
would have served Amazon's HQ2 location would be hard pressed to accommodate
25,000 additional riders. The 7 train is notorious for delays whenever there
is in-climate weather - for at least the past twenty years the slightest
precipitation knocks out the signal system and the segment connecting to
manhattan shuts down every alternate weekend and whenever the weather is in-
climate for maintenance. 2) housing in the area if at capacity so not sure
where they think 25,000 additional people are going to live 3) schools in the
area are over capacity so not sure where they think the kids of the 25,000
extra people were going to go. I've also observed that Amazon employees live
in utter terror of being out of contact - I'm under the impression that
missing a support call results in immediate termination - and there are
numerous dead spots within the city and along commuter corridors where you
will be out of contact for prolonged periods of time.

------
thecybernerd
So is this a boon for Northern Virginia or will something similar happen
there?

~~~
gk1
This is the first time I’m seeing Nashville mentioned, so I wonder if they’ll
benefit somehow from this.

~~~
hindsightRegret
They'll never get 25k workers to relocate to Nashville.

~~~
Apocryphon
Why not? Isn’t it the new Austin?

------
johndill
good riddance. This was a bad deal for NYC. 2-3 billion in corporate welfare
to the richest man in the world who heads a company that made 10 billion in
profits and paid ZERO federal income tax. Against all odds I suspect NYC will
survive. Now that Cuomo has an extra 2 billion or so in his pocket maybe he
can fix the transit systems that are the lifeblood of the City.

~~~
magduf
>Now that Cuomo has an extra 2 billion or so in his pocket maybe he can fix
the transit systems that are the lifeblood of the City.

You actually think that's going to happen?

------
endofcapital
The big tech giants seem to be A/B testing different ways of opposing and
working with the government. Sooner or later these tests are going to start
showing they have more power than the government, and they will start ignoring
laws because they are irrelevant to increasing whatever metric is important
this quarter.

This may have already happened, it's really hard to say.

~~~
skh
My current pet idea is that the Electoral College ought to be replaced with
the CEOs of the Fortune 500 companies. That way we could do away with the
facade that presidential elections currently create.

~~~
magduf
That's actually not a bad idea. We've already proven that the American people
do a terrible job selecting a president with the current Electoral College
system, so letting the F500 CEOs select the President surely can't be any
worse.

~~~
chiefalchemist
Whoa. Let's back up a bit. The DNC and the GOP do a terrible job finding
qualified candidates that can do the job. The system is designed to elect the
electable. We The People don't have much say in who the parties serve up, who
is willing to run __, etc.

 __If the relentless (Media) attacks of DJT are an indication, there are few
"outsiders" who are going to get involved in the future. And isn't that
exactly what status quo'ers like the DNC and GOP want?

~~~
skh
_If the relentless (Media) attacks of DJT are an indication, there are few
"outsiders" who are going to get involved in the future._

Consider the possibility that he isn't being attacked. That his
actions/statements are being reported on. That what you call an attack is
indicative of the nature of the man. When you cause George Will to leave the
party then....

~~~
chiefalchemist
George Will? He's part of the status quo that laid down the foundation on
which Trump build his successful candidacy. That George Will? The old white
blowhard? That failure is not Trump's fault, it's Will's & Co. But people like
Will don't have the integrity to stand up and be counted. Instead, they use
diversion and misdirection, and sadly people fall for that. Will left because
he was embarrassed, embarrassed by his own incompetence. Trump was a
convenient excuse.

My benchmarks are these:

1) The USA went to War in Iraq over over lie. Thousands died, gazillions were
spent, etc. as a result of that lie. The Media barely noticed. People who
believe Trump is the worst thing ever clearly never understood who and Dick
Cheney was. Trump is a pussy cat compared to Cheney.

2) Not only did BHO renew the (so called) Patriot Act but he expanded its
depth & breadth. The Snowden revelation also came to light on Obama's watch.
Again, the Media barely noticed. Real journalists would find both of these
troubling. Instead, BHO was our first BuzzFeed POTUS.

\--

I am by no mean a fan of DJT but the truth is nothing he has done to date
comes close to either one of those. He's got __a lot__ of work to do to top
either one of those. The Media is bending over backwards to discredit DJT
because:

1) It's a favor to the DNC. It lets the DNC off the hook because ppl are too
distracted to ask the DNC what should be asked. That is: "How negligent and
incompetent do to have to be to lose to DJT? And what heads are going to roll
for your debacle? We want names!!!"

2) The GOP doesn't like him either. He stepped in on their dance, made all
their candidates look like the fools that they are, and made it to the
Whitehouse. That's not how it works.

3) Neither party wants to see another outsider do what DJT did, and they will,
by any means necessary, make sure it doesn't happen again any time soon.

4) Trump is good for the Media's business. They love the "outrage". They love
the "controversy." As long as it draws eyes and clicks - cha-ching, cha-ching,
cha-chaig - they're happy. The media finally discovered that giving Bush #2
and Obama free passes didn't help pay their bills. For the Mainstream Media
DJT is like printing money.

That is the context. That's how W.DC operates.

~~~
skh
_George Will? He 's part of the status quo that laid down the foundation on
which Trump build his successful candidacy. That George Will? The old white
blowhard? That failure is not Trump's fault, it's Will's & Co. But people like
Will don't have the integrity to stand up and be counted._

George Will has been a solid conservative for decades and written numerous
books lauded by conservatives. Consider the possibility that it was precisely
his integrity that caused him to abandon the party. Perhaps it's possible that
Trump represents a part of the party that a reasonable person with some sense
of moral and intellectual consistency wants nothing to do with. How far right
does the party have to go before you will question the state of affairs? Trump
called Ted Cruz a liar. He implied Jeb Bush is a wimp. He implied that Ted
Cruz's wife is ugly. He implied that Rand Paul is ugly. He said that McCain is
a loser because he was a POW. He was a loser for getting captured. Trump
agreed that his own daughter is a nice piece of ass. This was on the Howard
Stern Show. How far does the man have to go to lose credibility in your eyes?

~~~
magduf
>Trump called Ted Cruz a liar.

To be fair, was he wrong? How many career politicians do you know that aren't
liars, especially Republicans?

>He implied that Ted Cruz's wife is ugly.

Again, to be fair, I just did a google search and he's not wrong, IMO. Yes,
it's in poor taste to make remarks like that, but Trump is a populist, so he's
basically playing the "I call it like I see it" card, which gets votes from
his base.

>How far does the man have to go to lose credibility in your eyes?

The things you're complaining about are _positives_ in the eyes of Trump
voters. That seems to be the problem you're having with understanding. They
don't want another regular politician; this is why populists come to power now
and then. It seems to me that the biggest problem that both parties have, and
is shown by your post here, is a completely inability to comprehend the appeal
of someone like Trump to low-information, low-class voters.

------
nxlouie
I wonder if the victory for local organizers here will provide a model for
anti-tech movements in other urban areas?

------
kodablah
I think this is fantastic for both as they don't deserve each other. Residents
don't want a company getting breaks and Amazon wants breaks. Amazon has plenty
of other places where the residents value them more and NYC has plenty of
other companies to fill the coffers/employment.

~~~
akhilcacharya
Most polls had residents supportive of the move even with subsidies.

[https://nypost.com/2019/02/12/majority-of-new-yorkers-
want-a...](https://nypost.com/2019/02/12/majority-of-new-yorkers-want-amazons-
hq2-in-queens-poll/)

------
chmaynard
In 2016, I relocated from Silicon Valley to southern Rhode Island to build and
reside in a new custom home. Over the next two years, I probably injected up
to $1M into the local economy. I didn't expect or receive any special
treatment from the local government. I didn't go to local officials and
threaten to relocate elsewhere unless they gave me incentives, tax breaks,
concessions, enticements, zoning variances, etc.

In my opinion, the type of special treatment that New York offered Amazon is
fundamentally anti-democratic and just plain wrong.

------
codyb
Good riddance.

It irks me to no end that our system is set up to reward the largest and the
wealthiest.

NYC should have prepared a package for Amazon and said "this is what we'll
guarantee in breaks to small business owners if you come here".

I didn't even think it was a particularly bad deal all things considered, I
just hate the idea.

Meanwhile, half of NYC and the country is wondering what NYC will do without
25,000 jobs. Or before that, wondering how the housing market could possibly
bear it.

25,000 people, a ton of whom were already living in NYC (thats why they wanted
to come) was going to be barely a ripple.

The whole thing was a sham. People were way overstating the affect it'd have,
and NYC needs better subways, not more tech jobs (or both in conjunction).

~~~
samstave
NYC has 38,500 police officers.

I could give a shit about 25,000 potential AWS employees.

~~~
codyb
Exactly. I didn't understand what the big deal was from the get go.

In terms of impact on a regular residents life at least.

------
taude
Wonder how many people started real-estate speculation who might be hurt from
this?

~~~
CydeWeys
Who cares? If you indulge in speculation and then get hurt by it, well then,
you knew the risks going in.

------
samuelyoussif
IMO, Corporates are not evil per se. How it is run, and by whom is the
question. America was built on the progression and opportunity of both
economical and social high fluency. Stepping on the breaks of the progress of
the largest economy, doesn't only heart the US, it heart all the western
economies which have trusted and followed that example. If the problem is that
Amazon has made a mistake, punish the act and collect the taxes that should
have been collected. Don't step on the neck of the economical progress,
please.

------
jpochtar
This move will keep more tech in SF and not in NYC, beyond just Amazon. For
every Amazon we lose, we lose 50 startups to the valley. I can't believe NY
politicians let this happen.

------
sharno
I just don't understand why it's so hard to go build such a huge head quarters
in a semi-big city that's close to a big one. They get all the benefits of
having talent nearby, they get to use good enough infrastructure. Businesses
definitely will flourish around, lots of people and companies would be moving
into this city just because of the flourish

------
Yabood
This could be an interesting development for the DC metro area.

~~~
dacur
>We do not intend to re-open the HQ2 search at this time. We will proceed as
planned in Northern Virginia and Nashville, and we will continue to hire and
grow across our 17 corporate offices and tech hubs in the U.S. and Canada.

~~~
CydeWeys
It's not clear to me how this comment is relevant. Northern Virginia _is_ the
DC area, and if this cancellation means that all of the jobs that were
previously slated to go to NYC will instead go to the DC area office, then
that will have huge effects on DC.

------
josefresco
"70% of New Yorkers support our plans and investment, a number of state and
local politicians have made it clear that they oppose our presence"

Sounds like a negotiating tactic, to encourage residents in support of the
campus to put pressure on their representatives in government.

The "politicians" are upset, because their constituents are upset. Amazon,
attempting to turn the tables is an interesting tactic - sort of a reverse
psychology. I wonder if it will work.

~~~
whoisjuan
What negotiation tactic? They already withdrew their plan of building a HQ
there.

It would be absolutely ridiculous and absurd if they decide to come back, just
because the narrative between officials and constituents changed.

~~~
josefresco
It certainly looks final, but that line struck me as odd. It's either a "final
jab" as they walk out the door, sort of a message or lesson to other cities or
regions, OR it's just a very hard-line negotiating tactic.

Honestly, them coming _back_ to NYC wouldn't be any less of a shit show then
the process of them coming _to_ NYC.

------
tareqak
Union leader says Amazon had agreed to a framework of a deal with state and
union officials to salvage plans for its NYC HQ a day before its cancellation
- [https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-02-14/amazon-
wa...](https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-02-14/amazon-was-holding-
talks-wednesday-to-make-nyc-deal-happen)

------
dmode
In a way this is good as we need to stop this race to bottom with government
subsidies. Amazon should be expanding in NYC not because of some handouts, but
because of the talent it has to offer. Also, Amazon's statement that they are
not doing a HQ2 search really underscores what I always suspected - the dog
and pony show is about maximizing handout for a natural increase in satellite
office headcount

------
barkingcat
My guess is they are using NYC as the hammer to get concessions from their 2nd
choice that they've been negotiating with behind the scenes.

------
ineedasername
I can't imagine this was simply due to a vocal minority that opposed the move.
Instead, I'm more inclined to think that the powerful NY unions who were
dissatisfied with the deal were seen as a long term threat: They represented a
likely avenue to unionization of Amazon employees in NY that would, from
Amazon's point of view, be a very dangerous precedent.

------
jgalt212
The Davos crowd hates this news. And for that reason this is great news, and
great news in general for clamping down on cronyism.

------
kingkawn
Try to bulldoze your way through community politics in NYC and get your ass
handed back to you, every time.

The only person who successfully circumvented NYC politics was Mike Bloomberg,
and that was solely a result of his personal charity giving over $600 million
in donations to different community orgs and non-profits over the course of
his mayoral tenure.

------
duxup
I don't have a strong opinion one way or another.

I did however love the protester's signs:

[https://static01.nyt.com/images/2019/02/14/nyregion/14nyamaz...](https://static01.nyt.com/images/2019/02/14/nyregion/14nyamazon/14nyamazon-
threeByTwoLargeAt2X-v2.jpg)

------
fallingfrog
What needs to happen now is that we need to use the Commerce Clause to make it
illegal for a company to cut this type of deal with a city or state in the
first place. It just creates a race to the bottom where cities have no choice
to subsidize corporate bottom lines with taxpayer money or else have
businesses leave.

------
danschumann
Come to my town of Oshkosh, WI. We have some of the highest rates of drunk
people.. I mean.. uh.. we have lakes!

------
skiw
Question: What does everybody think this might mean for the Crystal City VA
area (i.e. the DMV)? The article said they plan to continue on as planned.

Does anybody think that Amazon pulling out of NYC will make their impact on
the DMV greater or would it probably be the same as if they had HQ2's both
places?

------
m_ke
I wonder if Cuomo and De Blasio will try to save face by letting other
companies bid on the space instead.

~~~
CSMastermind
That'd be hilarious

------
chiefalchemist
Not to get off topic, but given all the talk about climate change and rising
oceans, the LIC selection always struck me as odd. Why dig in (with a HQ2)
that's so likely to be compromised by storms, rising tides, etc.

Yeah. It sounds odd, but it's certainly not crazy / wrong.

------
raldi
This will strengthen Amazon's hand in negotiations with any other region.
Politicians in Virginia, Nashville, and elsewhere will say, "We don't want
what happened to Long Island City to happen to us; let's capitulate more!"

------
kickapps
Amazon announcement: => [https://blog.aboutamazon.com/company-news/update-on-
plans-fo...](https://blog.aboutamazon.com/company-news/update-on-plans-for-
new-york-city-headquarters)

------
jowiar
In addition to the pushback against the tax incentives, the cancellation of
the L-Pocalypse made a massive expansion in LIC less desireable.

LIC was a perfect location to recruit folks whose easy commutes from Brooklyn
to Google were going to be complicated.

------
QuantumGood
This is the same thing that happened to the Mall of America many years ago. It
was extremely welcomed, then opposition, and it got scaled down considerably
and lost some benefits the state was offering.

------
dandersh
Hopefully seeing someone (even as well off as NYC is) push back against
showering taxpayer dollars on a company of Amazon's stature will lead to a
reevaluation of taxpayer subsidization for corporate relocation/expansion.

------
pointillistic
In this story I am only sorry for people who bought up all the real estate
around the future campus, ouch! Remember all the "insider trading" condo
purchases, just before the announcement, that is going to hurt...

~~~
orblivion
I saw leftie Twitter refer to it as "insider gentrification" which I thought
was a hilarious and clever observation.

------
onetimemanytime
Loose, loose: Amazon would have won had they come to NYC without any subsidies
but also NYC /NY would have won despite paying some subsidies.

But to save face, AMZN now has to pull out of NYC that has a great pool of
talent.

------
jdhn
Interesting. I guess they estimated that the battle to retain the tax breaks
wasn't worth the fight. I wonder if they'll continue to expand in Seattle, or
wait a few years before putting HQ2 elsewhere.

------
ihuman
I wonder if this means they'll expand the plans for the north Virginia hq

------
rb808
Its a sad day for NYC I think. The only exception to that is Queens, I agree
its not great to put a corporate office there, it should have gone to
Manhattan like every other big office building.

------
jrochkind1
> We do not intend to re-open the HQ2 search at this time. We will proceed as
> planned in Northern Virginia and Nashville

Wait, where'd Nashville come from? I thought the choices before were NoVa and
NYC?

------
sjg007
Come to the Twin cities, plenty of land, lots of tech already, highly educated
work force. Lots of lake houses and downtown is booming. Winter isn't that
bad.

~~~
protomyth
_Winter isn 't that bad._

Have you been there this year? It was -26F without the wind chill a couple of
weeks ago.

Come for the cold weather and stay for the high taxes and high housing prices
on the St. Paul side. Also, traffic is going to be fun on the west side for a
couple of years.

~~~
sjg007
Lol.. I live there. Polar vortex and all.. and that vortex impacted most of
the country. The flip side is that houses are pretty cheap. You can buy in
most brackets in almost any area you want to live in. Taxes aren't that bad.
Cost of living is cheap. Summers are great.

~~~
protomyth
Which side do you live on, the houses on the east side are up there. Taxes are
that bad. I lived there for over a decade, and my family is still there.

------
samstave
There was a story in the past about AWS employees buying apartments in NYC
before NYC was announced... I wonder what happened to those apartments?

------
rsuelzer
I don't understand why these tech companies love building headquarters in
areas where property prices are unaffordable even for their own high paid
workers.

------
ashelmire
I started to get that impression when I, as an east coast dev, started getting
hit up by Amazon recently... for jobs in Seattle and SF. But not New York.

------
hammerbrostime
They broke up with us on Valentine's Day. Heartless.

------
DigiMortal
So what about the 25k jobs? I do notice uptick in hiring, AWS and engineering
in the Denver area. But that could just be business as usual

------
Vaslo
I wonder how many speculators bought property in NY based on this proposed
move, and what happens next now that they leave.

------
throwawaymath
I wonder how the real investors who purchased Queens apartments are taking
this. Those apartments tripled in price.

------
bluedino
So who are the 'State and local politicians who refuse to work with us"?

Ocasio-Cortez, Gianaris, van Bramer...?

------
EGreg
Good. Why do the good people of NYC need to be taxed just so their taxes can
be given as corporate welfare to a large corporation that will then come and
organize other New Yorkers’ activities in such a way that money is siphoned
out of the city?

If we want to create jobs, we don’t need a giant corporation using our tax
money to help organize this human activity. We can hire each other for our own
local purposes.

If we want to keep NYC rich then we don’t exploit the labor of the local
population to send money out of the city.

The biggest US export by far is Dollars, ever since Bretton Woods they are in
demand all around the world. We trade them for stuff others make. It has made
Americans lazy and fat.

Do you really want jobs? Like race-to-the-bottom Amazon warehouse slave jobs?
Is that the goal of humans? No. It’s just fed to them.

Donald Trump said he’ll keep the jobs in this country. Bernie said he’ll keep
the money in this country by preventing corporations and billionaires from
offshoring it through loopholes.

I know which goal I’d prefer, if I wanted Americans to be the masters and not
the slaves. (I happen to believe that money going to poorer areas is good, so
I don’t hold that nationalistic position - but if I did, I would want the
money to stay, not jobs.)

------
linkmotif
Ideology triumphs over reason.

Big loser here is New York City.

Amazon will get its tax break somewhere else.

------
throwawaysea
Amazon is making the right decision to pull out. Given the political
opposition, flip-flopping from politicians who previously supported the deal,
and activist fervor, there is just too much risk in committing to NY and NYC.
The losers will be residents of NY and NYC. This would have been a huge win
for them, with massive job creation and tax revenue increases well in excess
of what it costs. That revenue could have helped improve services across the
city.

Note that Amazon did not provide projections on economic impact or tax
revenues or other aspects here. The city and state made those promises, based
on economic analyses they commissioned (and likely used in their
negotiations). It includes things like taxes from the additional jobs and
businesses that will be created outside of Amazon.

All but $505m of the ~$3b in subsidies here would have come from programs that
already existed in NY State and NYC (Excelsior, ICAP, and REAP). Would you
give up $3b over 10 years (and just $505m above programs that are broadly
available) to attract business that will provide an incremental $28B in new
tax revenue and $186B in GSP over 25 years? That is a _tremendous_ ROI, the
kind that typically does not exist in the market, and a $505m capital grant
(the primary Amazon-specific concession) was a small price to secure it. The
9:1 return they projected on this deal was the best such program NY State and
NYC would have ever run, and possibly the best such deal ever across the
country. To put it into context, the Film Tax Credit program had a 1.15:1 ROI.

We can argue all day about whether the HQ2 search was a bluff or sham or
whatever, but there is no reasonable claim to certainty here - and hence
negotiation enters the picture to turn something uncertain (Amazon MAY come to
NYC) into certain (Amazon WILL come to NYC).

Here are the quotes from the original HQ2 press release on the economic
benefits:

> The construction is expected to create an average of 1300 direct
> construction jobs annually through 2033. Overall, the project is estimated
> to create more than 107,000 total direct and indirect jobs, over $14 billion
> in new tax revenue for the State and a net of $13.5 billion in City tax
> revenue over the next 25 years. The project provides a 9:1 return on
> investment.

> According to an economic impact study by REMI, Inc., a world leader in
> dynamic forecasting and policy analysis, the Amazon project will generate
> over $186 billion in Gross State Product for the New York State economy over
> the initial 25 years. REMI also projects over $14 billion in total new tax
> revenue for the State (in 2019 dollars), with annual revenues growing from
> $10.8 million in 2019 to nearly $1 billion in 2043. The City forecasts $13.5
> billion in total new tax revenue.

[https://www.governor.ny.gov/news/governor-cuomo-and-mayor-
de...](https://www.governor.ny.gov/news/governor-cuomo-and-mayor-de-blasio-
announce-amazon-selects-long-island-city-new-corporate)

The ROI here is well beyond any other conceivable option. It is so large that
even if projections of a 9:1 ROI are way off, it would be a big win. Also,
most of the subsidy to Amazon is not an up-front lump sum. Rather, most of it
takes the form of credits for prior actions. For example, they would get tax
credits for job creation in the prior year incrementally, based on what they
actually delivered.

Taking all this into account, this would have been a super safe path to
greater tax revenues, which would have improved the city/state as a whole. I
hope as a next step Amazon considers cities in other parts of the country,
away from blue coastal cities. Economic revitalization across a broader slice
of the political/ideological/cultural spectrum can only be a good thing.

------
perseusprime11
Where are they going next? Will that decision be a new contest?

------
Simulacra
Will this foretell how Amazon will punish NYC for its obstinacy?

------
Bucephalus355
Totally anedcotal evidence, but the first 5 top level comments (make that 6
now) are all against Amazon for NYC.

Looks like we’ve reached our “Gettysburg” moment against corporate welfare.
Terrible years of war still left, but the tide has turned.

~~~
kokokokoko
It's very different because a large amount of NYC residents rent as opposed to
own. To a resident that rents in NYC, Amazon moving in means they will have
higher rents and less money on their pocket. It ends up costing many NYC
residents actual money in rent to host Amazon, regardless of the subsidy. I
think this one is a special case.

~~~
magduf
I don't see the problem here at all. If you have higher rents, that's because
there's more demand for housing, and not enough affordable new housing is
being constructed. Who controls that? Your local politicians. Who controls
them? The voters who elected them, which is you if you live there. So you have
no one to blame but yourself, and no cause to complain. You have the
government you deserve.

~~~
elfakyn
That is a very shortsighted blame-the-victim mentality. You're conflating the
power of the individual voter with that of the entire voting bloc. Besides,
even if new affordable housing was constructed (which is getting harder and
harder in nyc as people are being pushed further and further out
geographically), it's not easy to just up and move, even in nyc.

~~~
magduf
Sorry, I have no sympathy for "victims" who have _all_ the power, and bring
their misery on themselves. The voters have the power over their government,
so if they don't like their government, it's their own fault. In the short
term, sure, voters can be fleeced, and have to wait for the next election to
choose someone else, but this kind of stuff isn't happening within election
cycles, it's long-term.

As for "being pushed further and further out", that again is the voter's own
fault for not voting better. They don't need to move farther out, they need to
build more densely, and they don't do it. This is largely an American problem
because for some reason, Americans associate dense residential areas with
"slums" and think that only suburbs with McMansions with gigantic and useless
lawns can possibly be "nice".

------
infocollector
NYC had brains enough to do the right thing. Why invite a monopoly that should
not exist, and give it subsidies? (unless of course the governance is broken -
and can not make the right decisions)

------
ErikAugust
No paywalls, or use of JavaScript (for that matter):
[https://beta.trimread.com/articles/44](https://beta.trimread.com/articles/44)

------
dlandis
Austin here they come. <ducks>

------
acjohnson55
Good for NYC, good for Nashville.

------
AzzieElbab
Victory!!! Now, wtf did we win?

------
allengeorge
It’s a negotiating tactic.

------
sjroot
Is there a press release or any statement from Amazon about this? Paywalled
here (and would prefer a direct source anyway).

~~~
stephencoyner
From Amazon

"After much thought and deliberation, we’ve decided not to move forward with
our plans to build a headquarters for Amazon in Long Island City, Queens. For
Amazon, the commitment to build a new headquarters requires positive,
collaborative relationships with state and local elected officials who will be
supportive over the long-term. While polls show that 70% of New Yorkers
support our plans and investment, a number of state and local politicians have
made it clear that they oppose our presence and will not work with us to build
the type of relationships that are required to go forward with the project we
and many others envisioned in Long Island City.

We are disappointed to have reached this conclusion — we love New York, its
incomparable dynamism, people, and culture — and particularly the community of
Long Island City, where we have gotten to know so many optimistic, forward-
leaning community leaders, small business owners, and residents. There are
currently over 5,000 Amazon employees in Brooklyn, Manhattan, and Staten
Island, and we plan to continue growing these teams.

We are deeply grateful to Governor Cuomo, Mayor de Blasio, and their staffs,
who so enthusiastically and graciously invited us to build in New York City
and supported us during the process. Governor Cuomo and Mayor de Blasio have
worked tirelessly on behalf of New Yorkers to encourage local investment and
job creation, and we can’t speak positively enough about all their efforts.
The steadfast commitment and dedication that these leaders have demonstrated
to the communities they represent inspired us from the very beginning and is
one of the big reasons our decision was so difficult.

We do not intend to re-open the HQ2 search at this time. We will proceed as
planned in Northern Virginia and Nashville, and we will continue to hire and
grow across our 17 corporate offices and tech hubs in the U.S. and Canada.

Thank you again to Governor Cuomo, Mayor de Blasio, and the many other
community leaders and residents who welcomed our plans and supported us along
the way. We hope to have future chances to collaborate as we continue to build
our presence in New York over time."

------
JustSomeNobody
Well, now all those people who bought property ahead of the move will have to
try and sell.

------
imsodrunklol
Dallas is waiting yall.

------
Schnitz
Good riddance

------
YeahSureWhyNot
Great news! The richest man in the world and his company should have to play
by the same rules as the rest of business in New York. Gotta love New Yorkers
for their no BS attitude.

------
ummonk
Good. One-off corporate subsidies are basically corruption and create an
uneven playing field. Crony capitalism at its worst.

------
gammateam
Bezos practicing his pullout game sooner than I thought

------
trumped
amazon should be pulled from all of of their projects...

------
endofcapital
So massive amounts of corporate welfare and blatant handouts aren't enough?
AFTER doing that, we're also supposed to play nice and continue to say good
things about the most massive, powerful corporation in the world or else they
will just take their ball and go home?

This whole thing is beyond stupid, no aspect of this model works for anyone.
Just stop.

------
sigfubar
Good riddance! NYC is already overcrowded. Let's build some subways to non-
hipster neighborhoods first, then we can talk about adding more office space.

------
wwarner
This is really tragic and foolish. The taxes generated will far far outweigh
the tax incentives offered. The local city politicians _reversed_ their
positions because they didn't get to bring up their pet projects in the
negotiation phase. There is absolutely _no reason_ why the city couldn't use
new revenue to protect low income residents from dislocation. It's not a
corporate scam -- this is real economic progress for a city with a 43% poverty
rate.

~~~
jayess
I find it amusing to watch the political class eat its own on this one.

