
Former IBM exec says company told her to hide layoff age data from government - Dotnaught
https://www.theregister.co.uk/2019/01/18/ibm_government_lying_claims/
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throwitawayibm
Going throwaway since usual username is my full name...

Honestly I’m glad this lawsuit is happening. I used to work at IBM and left a
few years later. During that time, they killed the pension program, modified
separation packages that significantly affected tenured employees, and we
almost exclusively hired college grads. Our budget for experienced hires was
so low that it made it impossible to get any takers. I witness very well
qualified folks be let go for no reason. I’ve witnessed college grads getting
paid much much more than senior employee.

There were jokes of calling certain employees “dinasaurs” since they were put
on terrible jobs in hopes to make them quit, but they would stay strong doing
something they hate to get their pension. I’m talking about full time support
positions on software that has had no development in 10+ years.

I think a lot of this has to do with cost. Old people cost more money. Young
people are gullible and willing to take a 60k entry level with no bonus. I
think age discrimination is a result of shady budgets. They need a spanking by
the government and I’m glad this person of such seniority cane forward. I
10000% believe the statement.

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tehlike
You mention colllege grads being cheap, then also say: "I’ve witnessed college
grads getting paid much much more than senior employee.".

~~~
throwitawayibm
Its all about economics over time.

Those starting IBM straight out of school then sticking around for 10 years
vs. people coming into IBM with 10 years of experience are two separate
worlds.

For example: if you started IBM 10 years ago with an undergrad, you might have
been offered $55k where I live.

Then over time, you might get 2 promotions and economical raises from software
engineer -> staff software engineer -> advisory software engineer. You might
work yourself up to $100k. However, they would motivate new grads with ivy
league degrees with 100k offers. It made me physically ill at one point
working in hiring and watching coworkers get turned down for minor requests
for raises to amounts lower than what these fresh faces are getting before
negotiations start.

If you want to hire someone with 10 years of outside experience, those people
would command at least $150 - $175k, but IBM could get 3 college grades for
the price of 2 experienced hires.

Thats what I mean about college grads getting paid more than more senior
employees, while college grads are cheaper than experienced hires.

Those who worked at IBM for 20 years have less motivation to keep up with
current trends and tend to focus on proprietary offerings they work on. As a
result, college grads are better economical value since they come 'pretrained'
with the new stuff. This is my theory why older people are first to go,
especially in the short product cycles IBM tend to have.

A previous co-worker who still works at IBM has been there about 20 years and
he pulls $140k... I have 6 years out of college so far and pull $150k + $15k
bonus + 10% yearly RSUs at a listed public business down the road. Thats not
an abnormal salary)

~~~
jxfreeman
Pensions and other benefits run about 36% of base salary nationally (meaning
it could be higher or lower for IBM). College grads aren't usually vested in
their pensions, so they may be paid higher salaries and net a lower expense to
the company. What's aggravating (especially from the younger posters) is the
assumption that older people aren't/won't stay current. Currency is a dubious
argument, if you're wedded to an older product, the new stuff doesn't benefit
you directly on the job. After that comes quality/rates of errors. Younger
employees tend to make hard-learned mistakes long after the older engineers
have learned the same lessons. So cost/value isn't the same when comparing
older and younger engineers. In the "real" engineering fields, younger
engineers are universally required to work directly under licensed (read:
older) for precisely this reason. It prevents preventable mistakes.

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russellbeattie
I'm sure the MBAs have calculated to the penny the cost of these lawsuits and
decided it's worth it. Getting rid of one 62yo VP with 40 years of seniority
will pay for at least a dozen young workers from a developing country, on
contract, with no benefits or retirement plans to worry about.

~~~
tchaffee
This is why we need mandatory jail sentences for white collar crimes. Until we
do something similar to that, the companies will simply continue to base these
decisions on a calculation.

~~~
conanbatt
Mandatory jail times to protect 60 year old VPs over low socioeconomic status
workers?

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realbarack
Are you the one who gets to decide which ageist (, sexist, racist, etc.)
employment practices are legal because they benefit a party you see as more
deserving?

~~~
kittiepryde
Being illegal and going to prison aren't the same.

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fencepost
This is part of the reason I'm working on setting up my own business rather
than looking at moving back into corporate IT.

A regular salary and defined responsibilities in specific areas ("I'm building
X" where X is project-level not
project+financial/taxes+management/employment+regulatory) has its definite
attractions, but I'm very concerned about long-term sustainability. "Flow"[0]
only gets you so far, and if you have to worry about the viability of _your_
employment vs the viability of the project, product or company it's an added
set of stress.

Silver temples as a company owner negotiating a services contract seems like a
very different thing than silver temples as a software developer looking for
work.

[0]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flow_(psychology)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flow_\(psychology\))

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vikingcaffiene
The thing with being over 40 is that it happens to everyone if you live long
enough. If its proven that IBM did engage in this behavior, may they burn to
the ground and be made an example.

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aperrien
I don't know if it's as effective to go after the company for this. In an
ideal world, you'd go after the people who made the decision, even if they've
left the company.

~~~
doktrin
I think I see where you're coming from, but at the same time we shouldn't
establish a precedent that makes it even easier for companies to hide behind
some named scapegoat. The decision was carried out in IBM's name, and IBM
bears responsibility for it.

~~~
ambicapter
> we shouldn't establish a precedent that makes it even easier for companies
> to hide behind some named scapegoat.

As opposed to just hiding behind the corporate charter?

~~~
doktrin
Not sure what kind of answer you expect. The existence of one oft-used
loophole is a reason to create another?

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mathattack
The crazy thing is when I interact with IBM, it’s mostly older workers. I
can’t recall a smart young person going there in decades.

~~~
hardwaresofton
I thought the same way for a long time but there's some vibrant development
happening in Austin from what I hear.

They also bought Strongloop[0] a while back, so the developers from aqui-hires
have to go _somewhere_.

[0]: [https://strongloop.com/](https://strongloop.com/)

~~~
dunpeal
> _They also bought Strongloop[0] a while back, so the developers from aqui-
> hires have to go somewhere._

That would be somewhere _else_.

Strongloop is in SV, there's no shortage of opportunity for the devs who
worked there.

Unless they got some serious golden handcuffs, in which case I'm sure some
will stay for the 3-5 years these last.

~~~
hardwaresofton
Ah I didn't mean to imply that Strongloop was in Austin -- didn't know that
Strongloop was in SV though, but I guess that makes sense.

I would think IBM has excellent golden handcuffs, not to speak of prestige and
interesting problems. Like other big companies, it just depends on your
distance from the C-levels and which team you get to be on -- do you get to do
the interesting work or the boring work.

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SrslyJosh
Just wait till you hear what they were up to in the early 40s...

~~~
NullPrefix
Calculating "layoffs" back then, calculating layoffs now

~~~
onetimemanytime
More to the likes of improving gas chamber efficiency or something like that.

~~~
onetimemanytime
for those that downvoted: _" However, another invention did exist: the IBM
punch card and card sorting system-a precursor to the computer. IBM, primarily
through its German subsidiary, made Hitler's program of Jewish destruction a
technologic mission the company pursued with chilling success. IBM Germany,
using its own staff and equipment, designed, executed, and supplied the
indispensable technologic assistance Hitler's Third Reich needed to accomplish
what had never been done before-the automation of human destruction. More than
2,000 such multi-machine sets were dispatched throughout Germany, and
thousands more throughout German-dominated Europe. Card sorting operations
were established in every major concentration camp. People were moved from
place to place, systematically worked to death, and their remains cataloged
with icy automation._ [https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/ibm-and-quot-
death-s-ca...](https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/ibm-and-quot-death-s-
calculator-quot)

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jibanes
It's not just IBM, it's really any company that had a few consecutive bad
quarters at this point.

~~~
WalterSear
IBM has a long history of this.

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omouse
This is why we need unions.

~~~
tchaffee
Or just much stronger labor laws with harsher penalties that make it not worth
discriminating. In terms of being realistic about what might happen I think
stronger laws would be easier to achieve than getting programmers to unionize.

~~~
luckydata
You don't get better labor laws without unions. You just don't.

~~~
justtopost
To call that unverifiable would be polite. Do you have any evidince to support
your claim?

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jahaja
Uhm, compare western European labour laws with US labour laws?

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tchaffee
Can you provide a source backing this up? I worked in the EU for many years
and was never a member of a union. I worked in technology. However I enjoyed
strong labor laws. It could be as simple as voters choosing politicians who
promise strong labor laws? So it's not self-evident that unions were involved.

~~~
jahaja
I thought it was self-evident that most western European countries have a long
tradition of social democratic parties with strong trade union connections.

Those politicians to vote for doesn't come about magically. In the US there's
no such options, just two right-wing parties, and that's reflected in their
labour laws. The labour movement in large have provided those options in
Europe and the trade unions are where the practical power is through the
threat or use of strikes etc.

~~~
tchaffee
It's not self-evident that the unions played any role or a strong role. If it
had been, I wouldn't have asked for a source. It's a sincere request. I lived
there for a long time and am not aware that unions themselves were responsible
for the strong labor laws.

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Shivetya
When we had a "force reduction" being friends with three people who were let
go I was given a copy of the paperwork they had all of which was in PDF form.
There was a section that detailed their rights and such but also included was
a list of every position and the age of the person in that position for those
being let go. No names, sex, or race.

~~~
lallysingh
In the UK?

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tmm84
Ageism is real. The older I get, the more and more I see it with my eyes. I
have seen people denied jobs purely on age and have to work for peanuts
because of their age (old or young). I sometimes fear the future because we
are all getting old and the only ones living comfortably will be the elite
money hoarders.

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omeid2
I am afraid I am risking to be misunderstood, but I think, it is a question
worth asking and considering.

One's outlook and productivity changes with time and age, just like an
athlete's fitness. I suppose the hard question is, if a _productivity and
alignment with organization attitude and culture_ index correlates indirectly
with age, what is to be done?

~~~
acct1771
Stop tying compensation to seniority, and start giving it upon completion of
tasks/improvement of business...?

~~~
paganel
The task thing is questionable, because that way you just create incentives
for the people involved to introduce more (most of them un-needed) tasks into
the system, tasks which will show up on the performance reviews as being
completed. A lot of the senior guys solve un-created tasks, so to speak, by
saying stuff like YAGNI or KISS or by eliminating potential bugs (future
tasks) by pointing out that going a certain development route will create
those bugs.

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patrickg_zill
So I wonder if there is a difference between the stock grants offered to older
workers vs. current stock grants offered to the new hires. The executive
officers left would be able to get a larger slice of the stock pool.

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techntoke
Corporations are no different than being in the armed forces. You do unethical
things, but it is all justifiable because you're "just doing your job and
taking orders".

