
Benefits of a Lifestyle Business - adchsm
https://bugfender.com/blog/why-a-lifestyle-business-beats-a-startup/
======
weeksie
Sure! Lifestyle businesses are great, and so is the whole digital nomad thing
(I spent all of 2016 and a good chunk of 2015 traveling around the world).

There are a ton of upsides but I wouldn't go back to it full time. For one,
it's surprising how few of the digital nomad types are really that
interesting, and while integrating with local populations is fun, you'll still
find yourself missing the familiarity of people from your own culture (or
similar, Western cultures, assuming you're a Euro or American)

Once you get used to life on the road it's grand. Still, nomad nests like
Chiang Mai are insipid and full of scores of people hustling their drop ship
schemes. More power to them, but it's just not my vibe.

I dunno. Go nuts, travel, see a bunch of shit, just don't assume the beach is
going to be as stimulating as the (very likely) metro urban environment you're
living in now.

~~~
greggman
Life on the road was not for me. Sure I loved seeing the world but ....

1\. Always having to make plans for the next place to sleep was stressful for
me. I'd arrive at some city and have to start planning the next city else I'd
be homeless once my hotel/apartment term expired. I started booking longer (4
weeks, 6 weeks, more) but even then just the fact that I have a place I don't
have to think about is less stressful for me.

2\. No hangout buddy or really close friends. Some people are great at making
new friends and I did make a few in certain cities but I'm at least a little
introverted and felt pretty lonely quite often.

3\. There only so much tourism I can take. At some point it just got boring
seeing yet another old church, yet another museum, etc. Some recent book
claimed you should take several shorter vacations than fewer but longer ones.
They recommended no more than a week at a time.

4\. Not being able to buy/own anything. That might appeal to some but not to
others, it means no shopping, something that many people enjoy while
traveling. It also means no PS4, no Vive/Oculus, no gaming rig, no tools, no
food supplies. Sure if I rented an apartment I could go buy a few things to
cook but when I have a permanent residence I have tons of utensils and spices
and other things in my kitchen that I just don't have the time to gather in a
temporary place. Similarly I had drawers or closets full of parts and tools,
something I didn't have digital nomadding.

Of course that's all just me. I've met others who really enjoy that lifestyle.
Good for them!

~~~
komali2
Regarding 4, did you ever consider trying a gaming laptop? Razer is coming out
with some pretty insane builds at _very_ small form factors.

As for tools, yea that was always a bummer. Some cities have hacker barns or
whatever but it really depends on where you are. As always, I recommend
digital nomads that like buildin shit to check out Taipei, the maker crowd is
HUGE there (relatively).

~~~
mrisoli
As an expat(who doesn't know how long until I might move again) it's not just
about gaming IMO.

Anything you buy is just more weight to move to the next place. If you enjoy
technology and novelty it hurts, think about all interesting that can come out
of IoT, you can't just get a new thermostat or put a smart mirror in a place
you don't own and need landlord approval.

It gets worse if you are living as a hardcore nomad moving from place to place
within a few months, you need to have a limited supply of clothes, shoes and
other similar things.

~~~
komali2
Funny though, that's exactly what attracts me to the lifestyle :) I love the
aggressive minimalism.

------
sevensor
Your chosen lifestyle doesn't have to involve sea voyages in Southeast Asia or
weeklong ski excursions. It could also be living in a medium-sized town in
Flyover Country, U.S.A., working 40 hour weeks on interesting problems and
spending lots of time with your spouse and children. If you've ever looked
around at your Logan's Run coworkers and wondered what happens when you turn
30, here's one of your answers.

~~~
JBReefer
I can't tell if this is sarcasm - you realize this is just "median American
lifestyle," right?

The idea that you can afford a house and a boat and time with your kids on a
single upper middle class income in, say, Missouri is called "normal" outside
of SF/NYC.

~~~
lifeisstillgood
Does that really exist still? Can you have a house, a life and kids on one
income? It seems to have vanished in the U.K.

~~~
rcoder
My family lives in Portland, OR, which isn't nearly as expensive as (say) SF
or NYC but has seen significant housing cost increases in the last 5-10 years.
My wife works as a transportation consultant, which is a solidly white-
collar/"knowledge" gig but pays far below what most tech gigs do. We could
probably afford our essential costs (mortgage, taxes, car, insurance, etc.) on
her income but we wouldn't have been able to buy a house here without the down
payment that my technical work allowed us to pay, or the cash gift her parents
gave us for our first (USDA-backed, 3.5%-down) home purchase.

My strong feeling is that most places with a robust employment market price
most single-income households out b/c the expectation is now that you at
_least_ have two earners. Kids take another chunk out of your
"competitiveness" because of childcare, cost-of-living, and increased demands
on your time (making it harder to really "excel" at work).

~~~
lifeisstillgood
I have to agree - I was reading Ha-Joon Chang who was saying this is why
salaries have been flat since the 70s - basically household incomes have grown
as one income became two. And of course the washing machine and other
household goods have enabled so much time saving that women could go out to
work

But it does not quite balance out - households rarely have two good incomes,
and the time costs still hurt.

Thanks

------
wanderings
Lifestyle business beats a startup, until it doesn't. I'm the example. Ran a
category leading website for years until I was demolished by a fully focused
bad ass team and thrown out of my leadership position. Ultimately, I was
forced to sell out at a much lower valuation than I'd have if I were totally
focused. It could vary on niche and industry. But one can't generalize it one
way or the other. If you have a great position in a big sector and you don't
go for the kill, someone else will and your lifestyle business would be likely
chewed up by competition. If it's a business with an intrinsic moat(think a
retail store in small tourist town), it's likely to sustain. Take frequent
breaks while running a bad ass startup, but don't for a while think that you
can let the ball drop.

~~~
jitix
I think lifestyle businesses (like Mobile Jazz) should be more service focused
(although they seem to have a few products). That way you get work, do it and
get paid. No hassle of reaching the top and maintaining the lead.

~~~
znq
+1 this is exactly how we did it. Not that any of that was planned, but it
worked out quite well for us. Although now we're struggling with that every
business is struggling that makes the switch from services to products: the
need to put more resources on the product to facilitate growth while the
service clients also have their needs. But we're getting there, step by step.
The good thing about being a profitable lifestyle business is that we're in no
rush.

~~~
jitix
Your new products seem to be SaaS applications. How do you guys plan to
support the operations on a day to day basis? Will there be rotating rosters
for who needs to provide devops support for a given week/month? Because I
presume that would require reliable internet wherever you're working from at
that time.

~~~
aleixventa
I'm one of the rosters that does devops for the SaaS products. What's
important is to plan ahead any time you will be off so any co-worker can be
there when you are not there. It's very strange that all devops guys are out
at the same time. In case of a retreat we always look for reliable internet
connection and we always bring our computers with us.

------
AndrewKemendo
Is there some reason that people keep making the case for creating a standard
business that supports one or two people? These types of posts have been
pretty consistent over the years: "Take control of your life with a small
business" "You don't need to make a massive company to be happy" etc...

I never see articles that encourage: "Here's why you should dedicate your life
to starting a company and try to dominate an industry." It's like these posts
are fighting against a boogeyman that isn't there.

I think 99% of all small businesses are "lifestyle businesses" where the
founders aren't trying to build a market dominating billion dollar company. So
who are these articles target to?

Is it simply the amount of press that surrounds VC and hyperscale companies
that these folks are rejecting? I don't think any VC or founder has ever
claimed that the only way to be happy/make money/do good is by trying to
create a massive market dominating company.

~~~
sliverstorm
Small businesses are usually the norm. But HackerNews, tech, the whole Bay
Area is head-over-heels for the growth business, the make-it-rich-quick
business, so the small lifestyle business concept is the outsider in this
world.

~~~
AndrewKemendo
_the whole Bay Area is head-over-heels for the growth business_

Right, that's it's uniquely identifying characteristic. Literally that's why
people come to SV, do to that kind of business. It's self selection. If you
come to the valley you are trying to build/join an insane rocket ship. I mean
that's what VC and the last 30 years SV is all about.

 _so the small lifestyle business concept is the outsider in this world._

Ok, and? Is there some lack of knowledge that there are businesses that aren't
hyperscale? I can't imagine.

~~~
pfranz
Because Silicon Valley is so associated with tech, it's easy to forget there
are tech businesses that aren't head-over-heels for the growth business.
Similar to video games, you forget its possible to have a work/life balance
because so many video game companies don't have it.

------
k__
Can we please stop calling regular businesses "lifestyle business", like it's
some hobby for people who don't want to work in a " real" startup?!

~~~
dsfyu404ed
x2.

Pretty much every blue collar tradesman runs a "lifestyle business" or
"freelances"

~~~
nulagrithom
I don't think you'll make it very long if you're trying to cut, polish, and
install granite countertops from your sailboat in Micronesia. Blue collar
trade businesses aren't conducive to that sort of lifestyle.

There's an inherent advantage to tech work in that it can be done remotely and
asynchronously. This gives you the freedom of choosing almost any lifestyle
you want.

At least that's what I imagine as the difference between a "lifestyle" and
small business.

~~~
dsfyu404ed
It's pretty common to live out of a camper and travel seasonally or between
jobs. Sure you're not sipping margaritas on a beach but you're fairly free to
take on as much or little work as you want.

People that own their own small businesses (other than an LLC for legal
reasons) don't generally do this because you need to stay where your customers
are but I know electricians, HVAC guys, plumbers and carpenters who will get a
job working on something (e.g. HVAC for a factory) for a few months, park
their trailer local to that job, line up another job before that one's up and
possibly include time for a week of sightseeing and vacation in-between.

~~~
conductr
If those guys are traveling seasonally or between jobs, it's because they're
following the work or out of work. They are not choosing this lifestyle, they
are entrapped in it. Yes, if they end up driving by the beach or a national
park on the way to the next job they will stop and enjoy but, not the same
thing at all. The term lifestyle business does imply something different, more
like the folks in the article, or Tim Ferris, or something whether you like
the term or not.

~~~
ghaff
There are definitely people who string together outdoor guiding, ski
instruction, scuba instruction, etc. etc. gigs. I'm not sure if that really
constitutes a "lifestyle business" though. More an itinerant lifestyle.

On the other hand, they guy who owns the scuba shop and uses the (hopeful)
profits to be a ski bum for the winter probably does have a lifestyle business
if that's his thing.

------
orthoganol
From someone who's done both, they are not comparable, directly, but they have
a complementary relation: The DN (digital nomad) life is absolutely an engine
for the kind of creative and free thinking that engenders killer startup
ideas. Startups are "the thing" you want to commit your life to, the world-
changing vision that you're ready to sacrifice for; the DN/ lifestyle
business/ remote gigs mode is the fertile ground, for when you lack strength
of vision, you don't know what you want right now, so you slow down, gain
experience, and grow your thinking.

Only ever doing one in your life without the other is unenviable, and makes it
hard to fully enjoy and appreciate, or even excel at, whichever one you've
chosen.

------
ArmandGrillet
"A good lifestyle business could even be turned into a multi-million dollar
company, if that’s what you want.": I've stopped reading there, I don't
understand how articles that empty can arrive on top of HN. These questions
(where to work? On what? How much?) get way better answers in "Ask HN"
threads, articles coming from nowhere with a topbar selling me something are
really not making me dream anymore.

~~~
znq
Genuine question: how do you know the article is empty if you haven't even
read 20% of it?

~~~
ArmandGrillet
The sentence I mentioned made me wonder if anything in the 20% I've read
taught me something, I then looked at the top of my screen and saw the
discount, that's when I decided to go back in this thread.

~~~
znq
Interesting point. We actually had set up the HN discount long time ago for
the whole site. But I do get your point that it makes this look a bit scammy.
Thanks for answering and pointing this out.

~~~
ArmandGrillet
I would suggest adding the discount at the bottom of the article so that you
know that the people using it are already kind of engaged. The sentence was a
deal breaker for me as I was on my phone thus in a context pushing for
snacking content instead of going further.

~~~
tertius
That doesn't seem like an effective marketing strategy.

If they moved their coupon code, would that change the content of their
article? Or would it just set you at ease temporarily because you are jaded
(rightfully so)?

------
boyce
This digital nomad thing just looks hellish to me. Maybe I'm getting old.

Can't imagine being somewhere nice but glued to a laptop, or getting anything
useful done without reliable wifi etc, or being part of a team where the boss
has gone on holiday but still showing up in slack etc.

I'd hate to feel like I wasn't part of the team for not getting our kids
together or not wanting to holiday or spend a day off with colleagues. I'm not
impressed by instagram or medium posts from perfect looking beaches giving
business advice.

Not sure when a lifestyle business went from being a business that fits around
your lifestyle to making the appearance of living an idealised lifestyle
everybody else's business.

~~~
gt2
Part of the day working. Part of the day playing. Same as anywhere else,
except you are doing it in amazing new places either every week, or once a
month. Don't knock it til you try it.

~~~
Sleeep
Not everyone enjoys traveling, many people hate it.

------
miheermunjal
I... I feel I can't believe the company has 1) top salary, 2) top benefits 3)
unlimited travel 4) work remote 5) top enterprise clients 6) small teams 7)
work as much as you want?

either someone is ridiculous at managing at all of this (kudos!) or something
is slipping somewhere. Even in custom-dev it can be cutthroat, especially with
large-scale projects and demanding clients.

~~~
dbbk
I don't see what's so unbelievable about it? You can execute really quickly if
you have empowered teams and no bureaucracy slowing you down.

~~~
miheermunjal
at some point, its a cost equation. top of salary, benefits, inconsistent
working hours = potentially unreliable delivery to clients // not complex
solutions. custom dev isn't that groundbreaking, its just a game of balancing
levers at play. Something always slips, its a fact of the game. This just
seems too good to be true (though if it is, happy for them!)

------
jasonrhaas
Meh, kind of a generic article about how you should prioritize lifestyle over
building a startup. I guess this is nothing new to me, I did the digital nomad
thing with Remote Year for a year and change, and now I'm still working
remotely in Austin, TX.

I do miss the constant travel, there is always something coming up to look
forward to. When you are in one place, not constantly traveling, you have to
make your own fun. Which is why I've taken up other things like riding
motorcycles, brewing beer, and speaking at my local Python meetup.

All that year I was working full time as a Python Developer while traveling
constantly. Every weekend was an epic adventure. It's an amazing lifestyle if
you can pull it off, but its not for everyone can definitely will wear on you
after a while.

------
buf
I own a lifestyle business and I work at a startup as the founding engineer,
but I work remotely.

When you work remotely, you can treat both your lifestyle business and your
gig the same, insofar as you have the freedom to take an hour off your gig to
do some calls for your lifestyle business in the middle of the day, or you can
test particular technologies on your lifestyle business before you commit to
it in your startup.

I find them both to be healthily married.

I still have the freedom to hang out with my kid at lunch, or work from a far
away place, while at the same time achieving my career goals and attaining
financial independence.

------
Mz
Give me a break. He is playing fast and loose with terminology and it is
disingenuous because he is twisting _lifestyle business_ to be whatever he
wants it to mean while dissing _startups_ and not giving that term the same
flexibility to be "anything that grows fast, even if it doesn't eat the CEO's
life."

I hate the term _lifestyle business_ and articles like this one are part of
why. I have given my POV previously here:

[http://micheleincalifornia.blogspot.com/2014/03/i-love-
lucy-...](http://micheleincalifornia.blogspot.com/2014/03/i-love-lucy-
lifestyle-business-that.html)

My recollection is that Plenty of Fish was started by one guy who never took
VC money, so he got to keep all the money when he sold for millions. Articles
like this don't mention examples like that when justifying their biased
opinion that "lifestyle business" = good and "startup" = bad. (In part because
of the lack of VC money, I assume that Plenty of Fish was not a pressure
cooker. Upon rereading my comment, that assumption does not seem clear.)

------
chatmasta
A lifestyle business seems fundamentally incompatible with a team oriented
business. Let's assume the goal of a "lifestyle" business by a single founder
is to automate all operations such that little to no work is required on the
part of that founder.

Ok, that's all well and good. But some of that "automation" will inevitably be
delegation to the founder's employees. So the employees have to work. The
founder doesn't have to work. How can the founder possibly show good
leadership and build a strong team if his goal is to work as little as
possible?

As a founder, you are responsible for the well being of your employees. That's
why they're employees, not independent contractors. If you're working four
hours a week with a team of employees, there is a high chance you're shirking
some responsibility toward them.

And if you decide to be a full time boss, then you're still building more than
a business. You're building a team that you are responsible for. That is, you
"answer" to other people - your employees. At this point, the advantages of a
lifestyle business over VC funded business ("low hours," "not beholden to
anyone") start to lose their luster.

If you're interested in building a team, and a lasting enterprise, then it
becomes more logical to just take some seed funding so you can safely pay your
employees and ensure an early growth trajectory. Whereas if you're only
interested in a totally automated business to provide you and your family a
stable income, then you should avoid hiring employees because you'll just end
up beholden to them.

Thus the ideas of a "fully automated lifestyle business" and a "lifestyle
business with a strong team" seem at odds with each other.

~~~
mrisoli
That's the part I don't get, he argues for a lifestyle business being better
than a startup and advertises travel and hobbies.

So the premise seems very clear, you can earn enough money with a lifestyle
business to enjoy life without having to aim for unicorn-hopeful-hockey-stick-
growth.

I only read about the money, the hours, and the hobbies, but what happened to
you know, building a business to address an issue and solve a problem? Help
people?

Even so, the term lifestyle business sounds to me like a smaller workload
sustainable living of entrepreneurial minded individuals regardless of what
their employees think so you can travel to white sand beaches while the
cashflow continues, but some people have fulfillment in building a business,
creating a workplace, a culture where others will thrive and and enjoy life
themselves.

------
mcone
Site seems to be down. Here's the cached article:
[http://archive.is/p5ZLR](http://archive.is/p5ZLR)

~~~
franrull
It's back online again.

------
alissasobo
At a certain point, this blog post seemed mostly about the great traveling
opportunities that this company offers its employees. That's' neat, for
employees who are kid-free. But as a developer married to developer... with 2
kids under the age of three... I can tell you that those work retreats abroad
actually become pretty challenging for families. At a certain point.. people
want to have kids. I would find a company who made their employee perks more
about realistically supporting families far more appealing.

~~~
franrull
I'm a team member of the company and it's true that it's challenging to
organize this kind of retreats for families but we've done it a couple of
times and we're currently organizing one in the Caribbean and looking into
ways to integrate 2 of our colleagues that have recently had or will soon have
kids, e.g. hiring a full time Au Pair.

Also, we organize two types of events. Remote offices where the focus is on
working from a remote place (Thailand, Cape Town) but also retreats (Ski trip)
where the focus is on team building and there's little work. It's always
easier for people with families to integrate in the second.

~~~
alissasobo
That's awesome about the au pairs! Good one.

------
swlkr
Lifestyle businesses eventually give you more of what you really want,
freedom.

VC backed startups seem to just give you a new set of bosses.

------
tixocloud
I think what's important here is that we each have to know what our lifestyle
aspirations are.

For some folks, a lifestyle business is better suited for them as they are
looking to get more time out of their lives to do other things.

For others, a startup might be better because they have more control over
whatever product/service they are providing.

~~~
znq
Totally agree. It's a very personal thing. For us at Mobile Jazz it means to
work on technical challenges, while at the same time working on "startup-like
products" (e.g. Bugfender or Localname), while not having any pressure from
investors and as you said spending also more time on other things in life.

This probably excludes a lot of product types that are highly competitive or
time critical, but there's still a lot left to work on, especially niche
products. In our case that niche are developer tools, which all came up
organically as we built our own developer tools for ourselves anyway.

~~~
tixocloud
I'm glad you brought up the point about investors as I don't think the
implications of taking money from investors gets talked about a lot. As you
pointed out, more pressure to deliver and really should be used for pouring
gasoline on fire instead of starting the fire itself though granted I know
that seed money is required to get things going sometimes.

------
znq
Just in case people are more interested in the details of the business we run,
Indie Hackers recently ran an interview with us
[https://www.indiehackers.com/businesses/bugfender](https://www.indiehackers.com/businesses/bugfender)

~~~
vit05
Great interview. Do you have any text or interview about MobileJazz?

~~~
znq
We do, have a look here: [https://mobilejazz.com/blog/our-ceo-stefan-klumpps-
interview...](https://mobilejazz.com/blog/our-ceo-stefan-klumpps-interview-
with-happy-melly/)

~~~
vit05
tks

------
thefuzz
I'm someone who is thinking of changing carriers at 30 to become a developer.
I love the idea of cutting out bureaucracy and office politics and be paid
decently. I'd love any thoughts and advice from more experienced people about
what I should do in the next 12-24 months.

~~~
donkeyd
> cutting out bureaucracy and office politics

Not trying to demotivate you, but that's just not gonna happen. I'm a
developer who works on 'consultancy' basis. I've worked in multiple
organizations and all of them have bureaucracy and office politics. As a
developer it might sometimes feel even worse, because you're supposed to be
the technical guy and not meddle with business, but you're still impacted by
all the shit that's going on.

Unless you manage to get a job at a well funded, hardly managed, early stage
startup in the burn phase, it'll be like many other jobs. And even if you do
get to work in a startup like that, you'll see that there are also downsides
to it.

My advice; first see if you actually like programming and have at least some
feeling for the analytical thinking required to be able to do it. Do this
after work and during weekends. Pick any language and follow an online course
start to end. Then build something you think of yourself, anything, it can be
useless and stupid, but it should be yours. You'll find out whether you like
it while doing it. If you don't, then don't switch jobs.

~~~
dboreham
Yes there is client politics but the difference is you don't need to buy into
it emotionally.

~~~
pault
If you are emotionally invested in the quality of your work and the product
gets nerfed by some C-level executive power play, it can be just as
demoralizing. This is not at all unusual in my experience.

------
rb808
The people who I've seen who have the best lifestyle have big chunks of work
followed by big chunks of time off.

They tended to work 6-12 month contracts followed by 3-6 months off. This
works great in a good economy, when it turns sour its more difficult.

The other happy group worked in mines or oil rigs on a month on month off
schedule. They got paid tax free and had 6 month long vacations a year to
travel.

I think I prefer those options to working while travelling.

~~~
Naritai
To be clear, they didn't actually get paid 'tax free' (unless they have
extraordinarily unique circumstances). They just got paid under the table.

~~~
dnh44
Foreign workers in gulf states are normally paid tax free I believe.

~~~
Naritai
Ah, but many countries (including the US) expect their citizens to report your
income regardless of source. If you don't, it isn't really tax-free, just 'not
reported'

~~~
dnh44
I believe the US is nearly the only country that taxes its citizens when they
are working abroad. China too I think.

Certainly it doesn't happen in Europe.

------
lquist
Also this doesn't have to be an either/or decision that you have to make on
Day 1. We started our business as a lifestyle business and as it got traction
have decided to pursue a startup approach. On track to do $10M+ revenue this
year :)

------
lafay
I'm all for lifestyle businesses and side hustles. But some ideas really do
require a lot of up-front capital. It's hard to imagine Tesla, SpaceX, Boom,
or Nest succeeding as lifestyle businesses.

~~~
dbbk
I don't think anyone is claiming Tesla, SpaceX, Boom or Nest could have been
built this way?

~~~
lafay
Author's title is "Why A Lifestyle Business Beats a Startup" which implies
that no one should be pursuing a VC-backed startup, in favor of lifestyle
businesses. That would leave all of these (subjectively) great ideas by the
wayside.

~~~
dbbk
I agree the title could be better. I don't think (or at least I hope) the
author isn't speaking in absolutes though. Obviously, there are places for
both styles of business.

------
fiatjaf
Has "lifestyle" changed its meaning? It seems to mean now that if you're
"focusing on lifestyle" you are kayaking on the Pacific Ocean.

~~~
znq
I guess it means whatever is important to you: for some it means going surfing
in the morning, for others skiing in the afternoon and for some it is as
simple as spending more time with your friends and family.

------
josh_carterPDX
I have grown both a lifestyle business and a startup and I still don't know
which I prefer. I mean, it's nice to have some flexibility, but it's also nice
to find the capital that helps propel your business faster. It really depends
on the business, the person, and what you'd like to get out of the venture. At
the end of the day it's a preference. I don't think one beats the other.

------
kornakiewicz
What does 'a lifestyle business' mean, anyway?

~~~
znq
Author here. For us it means optimizing for happiness instead of profit. More
practically speaking what we do is ensuring everyone has a sufficient base
salary, but then also participates in a quarterly bonus program (profit
sharing). But the key is actually that everyone can work from wherever they
want and as much as they want (as long as it is properly planned in advance).
And then on top of that we organize fun retreats like spending a month in Cape
Town or Martinique, or going skiing together in Austria or just a few days ago
we went together to the Italian Alps for a week of hiking.

So this is what lifestyle business means for us: having a good time with great
people.

~~~
playmario
how do you deal with kids/school? Do you take your kids along with you?

~~~
znq
I personally do not have kids yet, but some of our employees have kids and
even newborn babies. One of them just came back from a trip to Norway. It's
all doable and probably less of a problem than people think :-)

~~~
SmellTheGlove
I think they were asking you what do the parents in your organization do on
some of these longer outings - do they come and bring their kids, come without
their families, or stay home?

~~~
znq
Got it! So I'd stay we've two groups of people in the company: those that like
the freedom to spend it at home and those that like the freedom to go
traveling. To answer your question: the retreats we offer are voluntary so not
everyone joins. But we do have a group of people who are strong travelers and
also having kids now and they just take them with them. This is however quite
now to us and we're planning a trip to Martinique where we are considering
hiring a nanny as well.

~~~
SmellTheGlove
That's awesome. I think you're handling that really well. I suspect a lot of
US-based startups use these things as a screening tool to not hire too many
people with families/outside obligations. It's a perk on paper, but you're a
"bad culture fit" if you can't do weekly happy hour or a week long retreat
because you want to see your kids.

------
goodroot
Many comments in here make the dialogue feel like a roiling cauldron of over-
work and burn-out. Whether you're nomadic, working in a start-up, working at a
mega-corp, working at the the grocery store, balance in life is crucial.

In knowledge work, how can one really spend more than 40 hours producing
quality output? It becomes an unhealthy compulsion to sate a hyper-stimulated
existence instead of a strategy for creation. Whichever way you choose to
work, focus on health and ample rest. The rest will take care of itself.

------
chet177
You could pretty much have the lifestyle you want wherever you are. You don't
need to go anywhere really, unless you want to be snorkelling or scuba diving
everyday

Most days you just want to eat well, exercise, meditate, do a good job, try'n
make some money, spend time with family, and sleep well. The odd day you do
feel adventurous just take off on your motorcycle or hop on a plane.

No great scenic view will make your life automatically better. The scenic view
in itself is only benefit there is. That I have to agree!

------
pdimitar
I am getting a strong cognitive dissonance by the loads of people here who
conflate "lifestyle business" with "digital nomad". They are NOTHING alike.

Lifestyle business in this sense is a traditional business with minimal / zero
external investment, no pressure from greedy VCs and people who have no lives
and thus live in the office. A business where you can take a break at any
time.

Why do people here equate this with people who travel around the world with a
smartphone, clothes and some food?

------
astrowilliam
I've been working in tech for the last 10 years. I've come to the point that I
need to enjoy my life and not sit in an office 10 hours a day, coding for
someone else's vision.

So I started a brand ( [https://lasttrystuff.com](https://lasttrystuff.com) )
of my own so I can enjoy an active lifestyle while adventuring. It doesn't
quite pay as much, but the trade offs are immensely satisfying.

------
Grustaf
One thing that is hard to have in a lifestyle business, especially one that is
combined with constant travel, is innovation. A lot of people do startups
because they want to create something radically new and impossibly ambitious,
something that doesn't currently. If that is what drives you then doing web
dev consulting will not be very exciting, even if you do it from a beach in
Bali.

------
lazyjones
How does the business case of such a "lifestyle business" look, i.e. the
numbers? I'm not sure whether operating out of a sailing boat is affordable
for small companies and the $6500 MRR of bugfender can't be covering it...

~~~
znq
Bugfender is part of Mobile Jazz, a service company that we've built over the
past 5 years running with a 20 people team. Our products (e.g. Bugfender,
Localname, etc.) are a more recent endeavor, although growing quickly as well
and currently cover 10% of our overall revenue.

------
matchagaucho
Not sure I'd agree with the OP's definition of Lifestyle Business, given he's
operating a service company with employees, payroll, clients, and sales
quotas.

That's no less hectic than a start-up.

------
jjmorrison
Sounds great if you want to optimize for your personal happiness. But not a
feasible way to really make an impact on the world. The world needs more of
the latter IMHO.

------
quadcore
Why does the author think one has to be happy the way he does? Lifestyle
business beats a startup for some and the opposite is true for others.

~~~
znq
Author here. The author doesn't think that for everyone. But for himself and
the people working with him :-) But I do get your point.

------
sgwealti
What is a Lifestyle business? I read through the first 50% of the article and
didn't see that term defined anywhere.

------
SirLJ
The holy grail is to automate, once done you'll be really free to enjoy life
and give back to humanity

------
SKYRHO_
Whoops... Did HN Crash their site?

~~~
znq
Author here. Sorry for that. We didn't expect this to go #1 on HN. We're
working on scaling up this small machine hosting our blog and also providing
an alternative source as a backup.

~~~
jethro_tell
Must be fresh if google hasn't even crawled it.

