
How one man made 22 games in 22 years, mostly from his basement - code_duck
http://venturebeat.com/2015/02/17/the-original-indie-dev-how-one-man-made-22-games-in-22-years-mostly-from-his-basement/
======
pdkl95
ZUN (太田順也)[1] may only be on the 14th game in his "Touhou Project" series of
danmaku[2] games, he that does include drawing all the art, composting the
music (apx a CD worth per-game?), etc. When you add in the fighting game
variants, experimental puzzle games, etc, that he released in the spare time
between the main-series games, you end up with one of the most project
histories that I've ever seen.

The scale of the impact his games have had is shocking. Fans of ZUN's work are
so widespread, you've probably seen some of the art, covers[3], or some of the
fan works that it inspired. If you were near any amount of Anime fandom in the
last decade, then you've seen a _lot_ of stuff based on ZUN's work.

That said, a lot of people haven't actually played his original games, which
are very impressive. They may seem impossible[4] at first, but they have a
certain meditative quality once you get past the initial shock, and can be (in
my opinion) surprisingly effective at tricking the player into a "flow"-style
mental state.

[1]
[http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Team_Shanghai_Alice](http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Team_Shanghai_Alice)

[2]
[http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Danmaku](http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Danmaku)

[3] For example, the youtube suggestions for this well-known cover of Bad
Apple (
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VzEUeWnV73U](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VzEUeWnV73U)
) is full of people being creative with jsut that _one_ song. Some of are
surprisingly talented (
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hr7uwOp0Yck](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hr7uwOp0Yck)
)

[4] Just don't play it on "lunatic" difficulty:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=eJ...](https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=eJxaXWLlWx8#t=77)

~~~
Joona
Touhou is amazing. I don't really care for the games, but the community around
it is huge and creative. ZUN's music is great, but the community also creates
their own versions, in so many different genres.

------
CodexArcanum
> I think a lot of game designers are so tight-assed and want everything to be
> so balanced and so super under control — I think that’s a bad instinct.
> We’re making games. We should allow them to go crazy sometimes.

This is something I notice as a GM in tabletop games as well, and I think it's
the same phenomenon. There is a tension between creators and consumers in that
the former wants to provide a specific experience but the latter cannot help
but to experience things their own way.

Every experienced GM knows that players lay to waste the best plans. They miss
clues and items that they needed to progress, while finding unexpected
workarounds to problems that should have been more challenging. They have too
little power sometimes, but then find a few good treasures or spells and
suddenly have far too much power.

Dealing with this tension usually drives towards one of two solutions: either
control the experience so tightly that deviation is impossible (railroading)
or try desperately to roll with the changes and keep things interesting. Video
games seem to largely take the former solution, probably because it's the
easiest way.

But talk to gamers, and while they'll fondly remember a good story or a good
game they played, it is the moments of accident where the whole thing derailed
that really gets people excited and talking. Gamers like being a little too
powerful, going places they weren't supposed to be. Sadly, game designers have
gotten very good at conducting their railroads, but have done very little to
master the improvisational artform of letting players do what they want, of
feeling free and powerful but still keeping a gentle hand on the steering
wheel.

~~~
thirdtruck
Sounds like you may really enjoy Fiasco
([http://www.bullypulpitgames.com/games/fiasco/](http://www.bullypulpitgames.com/games/fiasco/)),
a GM-less storytelling game. There's a phase called "The Tilt" where things
expressly go wrong in a random way. I've always enjoyed seeing how everyone's
characters (mine included) handle the chaos.

~~~
CodexArcanum
I do really enjoy Fiasco! Lots of fun, and pretty easy to get "non-
roleplayers" into as well.

I also enjoy running just about any game though. With practice and the right
preparation, a GM can riff off what the players are doing in any game.

------
Aissen
Single page URL: [http://venturebeat.com/2015/02/17/the-original-indie-dev-
how...](http://venturebeat.com/2015/02/17/the-original-indie-dev-how-one-man-
made-22-games-in-22-years-mostly-from-his-basement/view-all/)

------
JabavuAdams
Thanks for this article, I really needed this! Jeff Vogel was a great
inspiration to me, but somehow I'd forgotten about him.

I turned 39 today. I have two kids, a mortgage, and luckily a tolerant wife
with a good job. I started working on my own indie games in May 2014. Before
that I was making 6 figures. This year I'm going to struggle to make 40k. If
you count business expenses, that's closer to 20k. I'm in the trough right
now.

~~~
tarr11
Post a link. I'm looking for a new indie game right now...

~~~
JabavuAdams
I'll be demo'ing a new version of Neon Jack at the Game Developer's Conference
(GDC) in a week and a half. Currently, the best place for new info is the
Facebook page:
[https://www.facebook.com/NeonJackGame](https://www.facebook.com/NeonJackGame)

You can get an old build of the game off my website
([http://www.shinyfish.com/neonjack/](http://www.shinyfish.com/neonjack/)),
but frankly it's a bit crap. I'd wait for the GDC build.

~~~
Gbits
Jabavu, put me on your contact list. I wrote this story on Jeff; VentureBeat
cares about indie games, and I'd be glad to take a look at yours. I can never
make any promises - everything has to compete for limited bandwidth - but I'm
always glad to look over something new (and preferably good). Contact info
here: [http://venturebeat.com/author/heather-
newman](http://venturebeat.com/author/heather-newman)

~~~
JabavuAdams
Thanks! I followed you on Twitter, but the email address (domain) linked to
from your VB profile page seems to be to a place holder site. Is it valid?

~~~
Gbits
Yep, because all I use it for is email (I have a day job, so I'm lazy about
updating the brochureware.) Thanks!

------
normloman
So envious of this dude, even though I never want to be an indie developer (I
can't even program). He gets to work the way he choses, on something he cares
about. I commute to a shitty open office where I write bullshit that my boss
approves. I'm sure his life isn't all glamorous, and his success didn't come
easily. But still.

~~~
JabavuAdams
He was one of my original inspirations to become an indie developer. Still
working on the _successful_ indie developer part.

The grass is always greener -- the nice thing about going in to a shitty
office is getting paid. I love the freedom I have right now, but the struggle
to make it sustainable is incredibly stressful.

I don't know anything, any more. I don't know whether what I'm making is any
good. There's a million ways that it's not as good as what's in my head. I
don't know if I should've devoted more time to a different project, etc. etc.

~~~
mathattack
Unfortunately this is the darkside of chasing one's passion.

------
silverbax88
I think (actually, I _hope_ ) the best business advice from the article is
that Vogel just basically built games he wanted to play. I guess it's
fortunate that his desires aligned with enough people that there was a market,
but I do love the idea that you have a vision for something _you_ would use
and build it. Of course, I'm sure there are many cases where this isn't true,
but I sure like the concept.

~~~
visakanv
I like to believe that if you have discerning, evolving taste, and you seek to
fulfill it, over a long enough time with enough iteration you will make things
that other people want, too.

Maybe the timeframe for some things is far too long for an individual to be
successful at (especially large, complex, technical problems).

But for simpler things like games and books and such– I think if you dedicate
yourself to it, there should be some people who appreciate it. Especially
considering that there are billions of people in the world, and more of them
are getting connected everyday. If YOU really, REALLY like something, it's
practically a guarantee that somebody else does, too.

I'm kinda naively optimistic, though.

------
pacoverdi
_" At the same time, when I was young and just getting started and didn’t know
what I was doing, I had a freeness and a looseness and an energy that I don’t
really have anymore. I didn’t know how anything I was doing would turn out, so
I just threw everything in there, and through some weird alchemy, it worked.

A lot of it was just, by modern game design standards, broken."_

This totally resonates with me (replacing "game" with some other domain). I
feel like I'm 100 times better at programming than in my early days but
unfortunately also 100 times slower. I'm probably too much aware of what can
possibly go wrong with every line of code I write (or maybe it is just getting
older and/or losing interest).

------
CodexArcanum
I've tried to play Vogel's games lately (I own them all on steam) but I just
don't have the time and focus like I used to for enjoying them. It makes me
sad. I played the Exile series over a few years in high school, long hours of
my summer spent in his amazing world. I think maybe I can't recapture that
magical feeling of the first time I played them, so the newer ones just don't
seem the same to me.

I wish Blades of Avernum had done better. Blades of Exile was one of my
favorite games. There were some community scenarios that were just so
amazingly good. I think if I'd had some way to port them over as well it would
have worked out a lot better.

~~~
eridius
I have the same problem. The Exile series were some of my favorite games
growing up (especially Exile III). But I haven't been able to really focus on
Avernum. I keep telling myself to play through it, but it just doesn't feel
the same. I have to assume it's because I personally have changed, and if I
were introduced to Exile today I'd probably have some choice words about the
UI. But the nostalgia factor is really high.

~~~
freehunter
I played the original on my 486-DX2 and loved it. Countless hours I played
that. I just picked up the demo of the remake (Avernum: Escape from the Pit)
on my Windows tablet, and it works perfectly. It's not made for touch in any
way, but the touch mostly just works. There are only a handful of situations
where I wish the controls were improved, but the UI, while not modern, works
just fine.

Try the remake. The demo is free.

~~~
eridius
I actually bought Avernum: Escape from the Pit on both my iPad and on Steam.
And I still haven't put more than an hour into it (on either platform).

Really, I think the biggest difference is just that I don't have as much time
to play games as I did growing up, and there are exponentially more games now
that demand my attention than there were back then.

------
ronyeh
Props to Jeff Vogel for surviving (and succeeding) for two decades. I remember
enjoying the Exile sharewares back in the 1990s. I'm glad his company's art
style hasn't improved that much. :-) Gameplay is king, after all.

------
simonh
Sean O' Connor is another great indie games developer, with a bit of a more
varied repertoire (1). Some of his stuff is now available for iOS - Slay is my
favourite. I'm fascinated by these guys. They're great holdouts from the early
days of computer games when any kid could develop a game in their bedroom and
make a living out of it - and they're still doing it!

(1) [http://www.windowsgames.co.uk/](http://www.windowsgames.co.uk/)

~~~
mrec
Yup. His _Critical Mass_ is possibly my favourite game of all time; more than
any other, it really captures the "a minute to learn, a lifetime to master"
ideal.

------
PSeitz
"I think a lot of game designers are so tight-assed and want everything to be
so balanced and so super under control — I think that’s a bad instinct. We’re
making games. We should allow them to go crazy sometimes."

This goes to blizzard

~~~
FD3SA
Definitely. And it has to do with the MMOfication of everything.

I'm playing Baldur's Gate 2, and the things you can do as a player in that
game are just absurd. You can stop time. You can be permanently invisible and
kill bosses without ever being detected. You can summon extremely overpowered
monsters.

It's honestly so refreshing to have unique abilities. World of Warcraft ruined
a generation of RPG design because devs believed that everything had to be
"balanced", whatever that means. So we have a bunch of uninspired game
mechanics in a pretty shell.

I'm glad to see there's people still acknowledging that games do not have to
be fair or sane or balanced. Their beauty is in their madness.

And yes, a wizard who can cast Project Image, Spell Immunity: Abjuration,
Spell Immunity: Divination, Improved Invisibility, Time Stop, Abi Dalzim's
Horrid Wilting, Power Word: Stun and Power Word: Kill is not comparable to a
Fighter with a big sword, and he shouldn't be. Attempts to make the two
"balanced" just become absurd, as World of Warcraft has shown.

~~~
Qworg
A player shouldn't have to play your game just to learn in the end game that
their fighter isnt going to cut it and they'll have to reroll as a wizard.
That sucks (and is bad game design). Things shouldn't be perfectly balanced,
but all play styles should be equally viable.

~~~
apalmer
I mean but one has to expect this. In what sane world is a wizard and a
fighter going to be equivalent?

I think the main thing as pointed out is that in seeking balance a lot of
'fun' or 'interesting' elements have to be thrown out.

~~~
saucetenuto
It's fine if your world is designed this way, but in that case you shouldn't
be allowed to play as a fighter. Do it like Magicka, say, and offer your
players their choice of wizards.

~~~
freehunter
On the other hand, there are things warriors can do that mages cannot. For
example, in many fantasy texts, wizards are social outcasts and warriors are
anywhere between accepted (but maybe not highly regarded) members of society
all the way through respected members of the court. A warrior and a wizard
might not make sense going head to head in combat, but they occupy different
places in the social structure.

~~~
Qworg
In a tabletop RPG, you can represent this easily. I'm sad more games don't
play with this social/physical power dynamic.

------
kzrdude
Jeff Vogel's blog is great. He writes copious amounts about the indie game
market and the "war" against free-to-play games.

~~~
lentil_soup
[http://jeff-vogel.blogspot.de/](http://jeff-vogel.blogspot.de/)

------
onan_barbarian
I have a guarded respect for Jeff Vogel's games, but having played the Avernum
series quite a bit, I'd say part of the trick here is being closer to "making
the same game 22 times" (or the same 4 games 5.5 times each). Certainly
Avernum feels like a rogue-like with a better story, better UI and a more
solid gameplay mechanic. However, it never really rose much beyond that for
me.

I'm glad he's doing what he's doing and doing well at it, but this is a very
conservative approach to making games and IMO rather redundant with commercial
game development. If I just want to trek around a big, semi-open world and do
the same damn thing over and over building a character, there's a half-dozen
Bethesda games that let me do it in 3D or approximately 3000 Roguelikes.

Generally the effort of playing an indie game to me is only rewarded when they
show me something I haven't seen before - and there's real possibility in
these kind of lo-fi games for emergent behaviors and cool gameplay that isn't
being strangled by the huge content pipeline of a commercial game (where
anything that happens has to be brilliantly animated and at least reasonably
voiced by someone, making it unlikely that too many emergent 'surprises' can
happen).

------
zerr
Looks like a one game made 22 times :)

~~~
sebgeelen
A genre is not a game.

~~~
Kiro
You have to admit they look really similar though. Just google some of the
games mentioned: Nethergate, Geneforge and Avernum.

~~~
VLM
All the articles on HN look the same, identical ASCII character set, English
prose...

I like his games and have spent some money on them over the last 20 years,
never regretted it.

They are not focused to appeal superficially visually. Someone who solely
ranks games by polygon count would be horribly disappointed. Thats just not
his market.

~~~
Kiro
> All the articles on HN look the same, identical ASCII character set, English
> prose...

Not a very good comparison since most games do not look like this, while most
written texts do. I'm not saying the games are bad anyway. I'm actually hyped
to try them out.

~~~
shultays
But by same logic, aren't all text only games same?

~~~
Kiro
You have a point but I was actually just referring to the visual aspect where
I would say the same thing about text games.

------
agentultra
> _It’s terrifying. I counted more than 100 indie games on show there. The
> video game industry does not need 100 games a year total. Let alone your
> roguelike 2D platformer puzzle-stealth game._

I don't know if this is true. It seems like it is though. It's what keeps game
development a hobby for me. I'm decades too late to the scene now with
hundreds of games being released every couple of months. That's a lot of
pressure if you're going to try and make a living off of it with a mortgage,
retirement savings, kids, and the whole nine yards.

~~~
gagege
Yeah, if you want to make a modest living, let's say $40k+, it seems like you
have to make accessible games and pray that one of them is a decent hit with
the general population. If you make deeper games with a slow-growing fan base,
it probably needs to start as a hobby for the first ten or more years.

------
wonders_cease
I spent so much time during high school playing Exile 3. I had forgotten about
it and this article made me really excited to learn that the game
designer/developer is still going strong. I have got to look into all his
released games and see what I've missed

------
lordnacho
I don't get how he can be that productive. Just the non-programming things
like creating artwork and deciding on game mechanics and plotlines sound like
they could occupy someone for years. Now throw in the game engine programming.

~~~
gagege
From some of his comments it sounds like he hires contractors.

~~~
matt_morgan
He also does a lot of rewrites ... takes older hits and revises them for
modern systems.

------
colin_mccabe
Exile was great. Good to see Vogel is still out there making games.

------
mkramlich
I've made more than that and spread over a longer period of time, and probably
at a higher average frequency as well. It definitely helps if its a passion
and hobby, not just for money. Though a few of my own were commercial/public
and did sell.

------
expertonkappa
I recently purchased a copy of Escape from the Pit out of curiosity and one
thing that struck me was that most of the sound effects seem like they were
ripped directly from Infinity Engine games. The Icewind Dale series, to be
more precise. I don't think there is any relation between the creator of this
franchise and the IE games, does anyone know why this is the case?

~~~
danielbarla
If you're talking about Exile: Escape from the Pit, it predates Icewind Dale
by 5 years.

I doubt either side would intentionally rip the sounds from another game when
there are relatively cheap and safer alternatives available. If you're right,
it's probably a case of the same sound pack being bought and used - this type
of thing happens all the time with anything related to audio.

~~~
expertonkappa
The version I had was the re-released version (2012) which I acquired from
Steam so I cannot comment on the original game released in 1995. Regardless
you are probably right about this, although it would be great if someone could
find more information about the original creator of these sound files.

~~~
eridius
I don't think they changed any of the assets in the Steam versions, so you're
still probably hearing the original sounds.

