
How Teachers Came to Be So Underpaid in America - hbcondo714
http://time.com/longform/teaching-in-america/
======
kennethh
Bait click heading.

Nationwide, the estimated average public-school teacher’s salary is now
$58,950. Not a bad salary I would say, and the salary is 20% lower than
similar college degree which is not to bad considering one have more time off
than other jobs (summer vacation etc).

Would be more interesting if there was a lack of people wanting to work as
teachers but the article didn't say anything about that.

~~~
gadders
If you assume they work only 8 months of the year due to holidays, pro-rata
that would be $88,425.

~~~
dagw
If you assume they work only 8 month of the year, then you probably don't know
too many teachers.

~~~
gadders
What do they do in the 3-4 months off each year? They're not attending their
schools.

~~~
mtberatwork
No teacher in the US is off for 3-4 months (summer break in the US is only ~10
weeks to begin with). During summer breaks teachers take classes, renew
certifications, prepare lesson plans, tutor, return early to setup classrooms
and otherwise prep for the upcoming school year. During the school year,
teachers work before and after the students arrive, meet with parents/school
officials and get things ready for the day. They also as work weekends grading
papers/projects/etc and otherwise organize the upcoming week ahead. Hours can
be long and arduous during the year and the amount of actual vacation time
available to be off is equivalent to a typical office worker (3-4 weeks at
best). Source: in-laws/wife are all teachers.

~~~
gadders
As I understand it from teachers, creating lesson plans is something you
typically do infrequently - certainly less than yearly. Absent major
curriculum changes you can re-use your lesson plans for years.

The coming in early and working late, as well as the occasional weekend is
something that a lot of other professional jobs do as well, without a ten week
summer break.

~~~
rhexs
Useless anecdote incoming, but after always reading the many hastily posted
defenses posted after anyone claims that teachers get to take summer off, I
asked a friend who started teaching a few years ago. He said that you do
indeed get most of the summer off. Few conferences you might have to attend,
some teachers take second jobs, etc. Granted, he's a really smart guy and
probably has less difficulty than others making lesson plans, but seems like a
good gig if you have decent time management skills and enjoy the privilege of
teaching the next generation.

I'm sure it depends heavily on the district, but the "teachers are the hardest
workers!" tagline always seemed like an easy story to tell to (justifiably)
ask for wage increases.

" _gasp_ They have to grade homework at home!". Well, yeah, I have to take
office work home as well as the United States has no labor laws preventing
that.

------
2ion
Can't even fathom how many MSc educated people in the sciences would never,
ever consider teaching due that laughable pay (even worse when converted to
hourly) when compared even to the lowest-paying industry jobs. That's not how
you educate a society for the 22nd century.

To catch up with what is common in Western Europe, the pay needs to at least
double to 80k USD and more for teachers of upper secondary classes.

~~~
Jian-Yang
>To catch up with what is common in Western Europe, the pay needs to at least
double to 80k USD and more for teachers of upper secondary classes.

What do you mean by this? It seems that the USA pays very similar to what
Western Europe pays their teachers (ignoring outliers)?
[https://www.businessinsider.com/teacher-salaries-by-
country-...](https://www.businessinsider.com/teacher-salaries-by-
country-2017-5?IR=T#elementary-school-teachers-best-and-worst-1)

~~~
distances
Direct comparison isn't very useful. Teacher salaries in Germany seem to be
just above the US when just reading the chart, but in reality it's higher than
e.g. most software developers make in Germany. Thus, gets you a lot further
than in the US. You should rather compare teacher salaries to local engineer
salaries, as the education is similar (assuming Master's is required).

------
jorge-d
I guess this is what happen when a country spends ~8 times more in its
military than in educating its people. ($574bn vs $68bn).

Edit: as noted by a comment bellow, this is only the budget at the Federal
Level

~~~
GuiA
The military is, for many, vocational training, even though you may disagree
with its outcomes (I certainly do).

~~~
consp
I do not know the numbers but dare to say with great certainty that regular
vocational training is orders of magnitude more efficient and thus lower in
cost than the military.

------
roel_v
"“I can’t tell you how many letters I got this summer that said final notice.”
Cooke, who makes about $69,000, often skips doctor’s appointments to save the
co-pay and worries about paying for her eldest daughter’s college education."

(a bit up it says she's in Raleigh, N.C.)

Not to question this woman's problems, but can someone shed some light on what
the situation there is that would make a salary like that 'low income'? The
median house price is 234k according to Zillow, so I would imagine rent being;
what; 700 to 1000? I want to feel for these people, and I'm not claiming they
are making things up; but when I see articles like this, they usually have
examples that make me scratch my head a bit.

~~~
tallanvor
She's a single mother of two. The article doesn't say how old her children
are, but if they're young enough to need child care before and after school
(they may go to different schools that start at different times than Cooke,
and she has work to do before and after school starts) that will add up very
quickly. You also don't know anything about how much money she had to borrow
to afford getting her degree (or degrees if she has a Master's). So yeah, $69k
can be a low amount of money, even in places like Raleigh with lower costs of
living compared to New York or SF.

~~~
roel_v
Daughters are teenagers, there's a pic in the article.

If her predicament is because of student loans she had to take out to get this
job, then the problem is really 'degrees are too expensive', and not 'teachers
don't make enough', right? Or are excessive (relative to income) student loans
an especially big problem for teachers?

The median _household_ income in Raleigh is 55k (first Google hit). She's
making almost 20% more than that. Sure, she may have a bunch of expenses that
others don't, but is the story then that teachers make too little, or is the
story that some people have high student loan repayments, or pay a lot in
alimony, or have to help out family, or have debts from previous bad marriages
or whatever?

My point is: if I was a PR guy, trying to gain public support for the idea
that teachers are underpaid, I wouldn't show off someone who makes 20% more
than the median _household_ income on her own. If you're looking to make a
point, you find some good examples of the problem you're illustrating; not
even necessarily the worst cases, but surely not someone who raises questions
for even a sympathetic reader like myself. So then I wonder in this case, what
else is there 'hidden' in this story we're not being told but that would
change the narrative substantially?

~~~
mirimir
Yes, that jumped out at me too.

For whatever reason, $69K may not be a livable wage for her and her family.
But most people in Raleigh would think, on the face of it, that she's making
good money.

But this is an article in Time, not a PR piece. Maybe the author has an
agenda, or maybe they're playing it straight. Whatever, maybe Ms. Cooke should
have declined the interview.

------
dschuetz
This reminds me of the fictional character of Walter White in Breaking Bad.

Best advice I can offer in such cases - leave the country. Try your luck
elsewhere. Teach internationally. Get paid premium.

~~~
swingline-747
Leaving permanently doesn't solve the underpayment problem. Striking and
collective bargaining often does. It sucks but it's vital.

~~~
dschuetz
As a teacher? In the US? Good luck with that. At least it might solve the
personal problem of working off your behind just so you get something to eat.

The profession of a teacher/mentor was once one of the most respected
professions that had ever existed. Now look at what is happening to education
in the US. Teachers are underpaid, curricula cut and trimmed to the minimum,
tuitions in private schools worth a fortune. Public schooling is in danger.
How to survive that as a public school teacher? Go on strike? LOL

------
swingline-747
My stepsister and her husband are on benefits in order to make ends meet
because teaching special ed in America, by the signal of pay, isn't valued
enough for livable recompensation.

------
simula67
John Stossel did a section on highly paid teachers in South Korea :
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TxMPfY_YDsE](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TxMPfY_YDsE)

Some numbers : [http://ncee.org/what-we-do/center-on-international-
education...](http://ncee.org/what-we-do/center-on-international-education-
benchmarking/top-performing-countries/south-korea-overview/south-korea-
teacher-and-principal-quality/)

~~~
eloisant
yeah I'm not sure "celebrity teachers" is a great model either

------
jimhefferon
One political factor in the US is the belief, which I have heard expressed out
loud any number of times, is that if you are good you then become an
entrepeneur. So if you are instead a teacher then you must not have real
skills, and should not get real pay.

(Not my attitude, very much not, but the reality that there are many who think
that way needs to be noted.)

~~~
scarface74
The whole “become an entrepreneur” is mostly a Silicon Valley bubble thing.

In the rest of the US, most people aren’t expected to start a business, they
are expected to go to college and get a job.

~~~
jimhefferon
I have many times heard people say, for example at events for a ham radio club
I belong to, that if you are a teacher then it is because you couldn't, or
wouldn't, make it in "the real world."

Pointing out that teachers are highly-trained professionals who are often
quite skilled, and who are an important part of what it takes to make a better
future, in my experience just does not register very much.

~~~
scarface74
There is a huge difference between “not making it in the real world” and
“starting your own business”. Not that I agree with the first sentiment
either.

------
serversystem
10 years ago it was working 2 jobs (Breaking Bad Season 1 reference).

------
booleandilemma
If people know they’re going to be underpaid, why do they pursue that career
path? No one becomes a teacher by accident.

Let’s have a shortage of teachers so that they’re forced to raise wages.

~~~
GoMonad
Having a long period of too few teachers could lead to large class sizes and a
reduction in education quality. Those that could afford it would switch to
private schools and we could end up in a feedback loop of reducing funding,
worsening education and less support for public education.

~~~
darkerside
Some would argue that's already happening

------
js8
Is there a country in the world where are the teachers paid well? I don't know
of any. I suspect if there is a reason, it has nothing to do with America per
se.

~~~
badestrand
In Germany they are paid quite well. At least older, married ones with
children as those things give you bonuses. A relative of me had ~4k€ net
(after taxes and healthcare) which puts you in the top 15% income earners
according to a quick Google search. Not bad for teaching in some random school
somewhere in the countryside. Unfortunately most German states are currently
trying to lower the wages.

~~~
darkerside
The family bonus is a little fascinating. I imagine something like that would
be met with outrage if implemented here in the states. It certainly does make
sense though, as teachers with children are likely to have more experience
with caring for children as well as greater need.

------
eloisant
What about teachers working in outrageous expensive private schools, are they
underpaid too?

------
RickJWagner
It's truly a calling. My son is a junior in college, studying to become an
elementary school teacher. I've talked to him several times about likely
future earning prospects, he's well aware.

I have the highest admiration for true teachers.

