
India’s Messy Electric Vehicle Revolution - denzil_correa
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/08/22/technology/india-electric-vehicle-rickshaw.html
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readme3
I read recently , just some numbers that many TPS (Thermal power stations) are
slowly being shutdown , because of myriad of reasons including water shortages
, coal emission norms and falling costs of power (TPS /unit power is much
higher than other sources)

[https://numerical.co.in/numerons/collection/5afecac0291c55fc...](https://numerical.co.in/numerons/collection/5afecac0291c55fc1f45e6ec)

There are places like Raichur (famous for Rice cultivation down here) that has
Super thermal stations that shutdown due to lack of water.

In my home state , we can generate solar power from the rooftops and send it
back to the grid and get paid for it. Best part is , I get the panel on a
subsidized rate as well. Where i currently stay , solar water heaters are
mandatory to get occupancy certificates for individual houses.

Without crediting anyone (and hence labeling myself as pro/con government) ,
recent norms have forced rethink of dirty fuels. Delhi had a ban on diesel
passenger vehicles as well. An example is India's largest car manufacturer
Maruti to stop diesel cars by 2020
([https://www.deccanherald.com/business/maruti-to-stop-
making-...](https://www.deccanherald.com/business/maruti-to-stop-making-
diesel-cars-from-2020-730653.html))

A combination of improved public transport (metros) and these little steps on
energy self sufficiency will go a long way in the short to middle term (5-10
years is my guess)

In a hugely negative world , I find these heartening.We have unstable grids ,
but quite looking forward to stability in electricity.

~~~
0xFFFE
If only we can get an efficient & cost effective Thorium reactor working, most
of the coal plants can be shutdown much sooner. Going by publicly available
data, we are no where near a working prototype.

~~~
pjc50
Aren't these also going to be vulnerable to the lack of water problem?

~~~
0xFFFE
Valid point. For the same generating capacity, water consumption should be
similar assuming same location. But a nuclear power plant has different site
selection criteria than other plants.

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nautical
I have been living in Delhi city since a LONG time and I have seen these
cropping up mainly on metro routes. There is a major shift towards using
public transport in general. Many people having cars have started to prefer
e-rickshaw and metro combination for daily travel.

It is very cheap ( about 1 dollar e-rickshaw and metro combined - both ways -
basically about 30 dollar your monthly travel is sorted ).

It is cleaner ( Being public mode, there are benefits )

It has become one of the fastest way to travel.

~~~
bobsil1
Delhi metro is fantastic — new, modern, floor-through, nicer than
NYC’s/London’s.

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mastazi
> It’s messy, improvised and driven by the people. The government and vehicle
> makers are now trying to gain some control over it.

This is a good introduction but the rest of the article seems to side heavily
with the latter (vehicle makers and startups like SmartE) while criticising
the "homebrew" market for being "disorganised".

I'm going to disagree for two reasons:

1\. From a workers rights point of view, I'm not sure that drivers renting
their vehicle from a startup is better than drivers owning their own ride.

2\. On a technological level a varied market with many alternatives can
sometimes better facilitate innovation as opposed to an oligopoly limited to
2-3 larger actors.

Disclaimer: I know nothing about India in general, so my opinion is that of an
uninformed external observer.

~~~
abhiminator
>1\. From a workers rights point of view, I'm not sure that drivers renting
their vehicle from a startup is better than drivers owning their own ride.

I agree with the gist of your comment, however, given that the majority of
drivers in India are illiterate and not economically well off (especially
considering the maintenance costs as a % of the vehicle's initial MSP), I
think it makes sense for them to rent the e-rickshaws out from a centralized
provider/operator -- initially, at least -- until the drivers reach a certain
level of economic prosperity and familiarity with the technology.

Another option could be the mass training of vocational technicians and other
auxiliary support staff in a co-operative framework to keep the whole
operation running, thereby creating a ton of good, decently-paying side jobs
in the process.

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9nGQluzmnq3M
One thing not mentioned in the article is that virtually all of Delhi's
autorickshaws are powered by CNG, not gas/petrol. On the other hand, most of
India's electricity comes from coal, and dirty coal at that. So is switching
to e-rickshaws really a net benefit?

~~~
ggm
Even dirty coal is possibly better than dirty diesel and petrol. Yes, its
dirty: what kind of remediation can be done in a centralized generator,
compared to distributed catalytic converters in exhaust (which fail in
service, or are not fitted) and a huge burden in NO and related problems.

Coal is bad, polluting, creates health hazards and we need to get rid of it.
Petrol and Diesel are not "better" and there are reasons central generation
may overall be net beneficial especially given the efficiency of generation,
transmission losses and in-engine effects comparing ICE to EV

~~~
0xFFFE
India has an ambitious goal of generating 175GW from renewable sources by
2022. There are various solar power plants coming up all over the country.

Source: [https://www.niti.gov.in/reports](https://www.niti.gov.in/reports)
[Line item 6]

PS: NITI is the apex advisory body to the Indian Govt.

~~~
xvilka
India also investing smartly in the nuclear technology, while less smart
governments ditching it.

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supermatt
a governments smartness is defined by its investment in nuclear energy? why
are renewables not a smart investment?

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Aloha
You still need to generate base load, only hydro out of the three renewables
is good with base load, and no, batteries are not a replacement for base load
generation. Pumped storage is, but it's pretty inefficient and requires the
right physical siting to build.

~~~
ggm
Base load is a misnomer. Nowadays people talk about dispatchable power. base
load is an economic forcing function to justify high efficiency "always-on"
generation models. Nobody actually wants this, as much as they want power when
they need it. Synchronous condensers, PH, and fast response batteries with
some topping up from gas turbines could be as good. Base power is just the low
engineering effort answer.

There are other answers than "base load"

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nkoren
These are a step in the right direction, but are not as environmentally
effective as you might think. Major changes in India's grid energy are needed
before this will yield significant improvements.

I was the project lead for a (sadly failed) electric autonomous vehicle
project in India, the Amritsar Pod[1]. This was using a technology which, when
deployed in the west, is _vastly_ environmentally superior to (say) buses.
That's for several reasons that are broadly shared with electric rickshaws:

1\. As a demand-responsive vehicle, it only runs when there is passenger
demand. So (aside from empty-vehicle redistribution movements) there is a
minimum occupancy of 25% (for a single person in a 4-person vehicle), and in
many cases, the average occupancy is closer to 35%-50%. This is in contrast to
buses, which need to keep circulating even when there is little or no demand.
A full-occupancy bus is very efficient, but a 50-person-capacity bus that is
carrying 4 passengers is more polluting, per-person than a single-occupant
SUV. This is in fact the case in America, where the average occupancy of urban
buses is 9%. In Europe it's more like 20-25%. But in both cases, pods are
still more efficient.

2\. As electric vehicles, they of course produce no tailpipe emissions, and
are as clean as whatever grid they draw power from.

So put these two factors together, and it's an environmentally winning
proposition _in the West_ (although it hasn't caught on there either, yet).
But interestingly, this calculation doesn't work in India:

1\. The urban buses are hardly low-occupancy. Average occupancies tend to be
around 55%, and can reach 85% in some cases. Replacing these with 25%-50%
occupancy pods is only a win if the pods are _significantly_ cleaner.

2\. The grid energy is horribly dirty.

What I found when I did a CO2 analysis of my system is that what would have
reduced CO2 by > 90% in the West was merely a break-even proposition in India.
Didn't increase CO2 -- and would've been worth doing on the basis of travel
time savings, pedestrian conflicts, etc. -- but didn't actually help with CO2
either. This will be the case for any electric vehicle until India's grid
becomes significantly cleaner.

1: [https://www.ultraglobalprt.com/wheres-it-used/amritsar-
india...](https://www.ultraglobalprt.com/wheres-it-used/amritsar-india/)

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sudhirj
I'm in a major city, and the grid isn't very stable, but stable enough for me
to get an electric vehicle that I need to charge once a week. Solar panels are
easy to get, but the utilities are realizing that nett metering isn't a good
deal for them - my otherwise high electricity bill will be zero if I get solar
panels, and so they have no incentive to service my house.

That aside, because our cities are so crowded and generally hot already,
everyone is very keenly aware of the heat and smoke diesel and petrol vehicles
put out - if electric vehicles are affordable and charging infrastructure is
in place, there's going to be no problems with adoption. The issue, of course,
is that making them affordable and setting up charging infra go against the
interests of the oil and gas companies that built India up to where it is so
far.

To its credit, though, the government seems keen to get things going, even at
the expense of breaking earlier promises to big oil and big auto. Now it's
just figuring out the chicken and egg situation of bringing down costs and
setting up infra without clear current demand.

~~~
noneeeed
We really need to move to a model of charging a flat fee for a connection, and
then metered rate for electricity. Wrapping everything up in the metered rate
just creates annoying disincentives for the utility companies.

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ForFreedom
Messy? "The automakers are loosing business because of custom made electric
vehicles" should have been the title.

~~~
factorialboy
Typical NYT bias when it comes to reporting on India. Not the first time,
certainly won't be the last.

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oska
In the looping video at the top of the article, notice how confidently the
woman in the red & yellow sari steps out in front of the rickshaw (making it
wait for her to cross).

~~~
srean
Right of way works a little differently in India, different from what you may
be used to.

~~~
oska
I like it. I like pedestrians asserting themselves in traffic.

I think in urban areas pedestrians should have precedence. Walking is our
natural way of getting around.

~~~
vinay427
In most places in Europe or the US, you wouldn't have to stand in the way of a
vehicle to get them to stop. You would just use the nearest crosswalk and
vehicles will nearly always stop as soon as it's clear that you're crossing.

~~~
srean
India is an exception to that too. There they will speed up to scare you out
of the crosswalk

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cindyyy
“I have struggled a lot,” he said in an interview in the one-room flat he
shares with his eldest son. “But now she can use her hands. Now she can walk.”

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dillllan-li
About 60 million Indians hop on an e-rickshaw every day, analysts estimate.
Passengers pay about 10 rupees, or 14 cents, for a ride. In a country with
limited shared transit options and a vast population of working poor people,
the vehicles provide a vital service as well as a decent living for drivers,
who are mostly illiterate.

~~~
wsxcde
What is the citation for the drivers being "mostly illiterate"? Sounds like
bullshit to me.

The country is something like 70-80% literate and a significant part of the
illiterate population consists of old people.

~~~
brij0102
Memory is foggy and I don't have a citation but didn't the definition of
literacy in India just involved the ability to read/write your name
(officially by govt)? I wouldn't be surprised if a significant percentage was
functionally illiterate - that doesn't mean they aren't smart though - likely
smarter than the author :)

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modi15
India auto sector (mostly ICE based) is a bit in the doldrums. It seems to me
that govt. just maybe wants to let it be in favor of a longer term move to
electric.

