
Ask YC: Best ways to become socially adept? - yters
I know about and have done Toastmasters.  Are there any other effective ways to develop my interpersonal abilities, besides reading "How to Make Friends and Influence People" etc?
======
swoodtke
I went with my friend to the convenience store on the weekend. He spent a
couple of minutes chatting with the clerk behind the counter while I watched.
It seemed like the most natural thing in the world.

He later told me that he didn't feel at all comfortable during the
conversation. He said that he has been trying to "bust out of his geeky shell"
by talking to random people. To me it looked like he was just a friendly guy
chatting with a stranger.

Moral of the story: just do it. It will probably feel weird but you are the
only person who will notice.

~~~
crisachow14
Introverted people need to break out of their shell and 'just do things'. This
applies to pretty much everything. If you fail, try, try again and you will
eventually succeed whether you want to be able to socialize with people or
learn a new language or whatever it is that you truly desire.

~~~
ken
Introverts do not have a shell that needs breaking. We're not (necessarily)
antisocial. We don't refrain from 'doing things'.

We just don't get energized from being around people. This doesn't mean we
can't or don't. Like any aspect of temperament, it's mostly immutable: even a
socially adept introvert (which I like to think I am) is still an introvert.

Wikipedia puts it well: "Introversion is not the same as shyness, though
introverts may also be shy. Introverts choose solitary over social activities
by preference, whereas shy people avoid social encounters out of fear."

------
culley
Consider attending a political event. You'll be surrounded by only the
socially adept who will all be forced to at least talk to you momentarily.
Watch as they work a room. A relatively cheap donation will get you invited.
Consider it a training fee. You'll learn more about power and interpersonal
relationships in a night than a month of sitting by yourself at the bar.

btw - I second that this is a skill that does not come from books. It requires
real effort on your part.

~~~
mikesabat
Be sure to donate to Obama.

Also, go to programmer meetups. It will be many people that you can empathize
with. You'll have a lot in common with the crowd an it is a good way to start.

------
okeumeni
From my own experience: It may seem crazy, but try this.

Climb down your geek tower and stop judging people (you may be judging people
without even knowing it), then will come respect for people.

When you respect anyone around, you will gradually find interest in them; That
will help break the ice, conversation will come easy and you’ll found out that
people are much interesting than you think.

~~~
bzerkfury
I couldn't agree more. During Y Combinator, there were two guys sitting behind
me. They said something along the lines of "Not to be sterotypical but I am
suspicious of any girls here. They're probably just project managers and not
really hackers."

Not a very "social" tactical move to do when there were about two girls around
the area who heard his comment and some hackers wonder why girls don't talk to
them.

~~~
ardit33
or maybe those girls are trying to score a future millionare... hehe...

ok, just kidding. But in some "Tech parties" you always seem some of them and
it is very easy to spot the Gold Digging types.

~~~
okeumeni
Pure in-the-hole-hacker thinking.

------
edw519
Find a fellow nerd and go to events together. Make it a project to encourage
each other; that is, if I don't muster up the courage to meet someone and
start a conversation, then _you_ get a demerit. It's almost uncanny how we
will find a way to succeed given a limited scope, easily defined problem.

Once you get into the swing of things, instinct takes over and you'll be fine.
You probably have something interesting to discuss with almost everyone else
out there. The trick is finding it.

I don't buy into the philosphy of learning about popular culture, sports, or
current events just to have something to talk about. Stick with what turns you
on; you can be yourself (who else would you be?), and the same thing probably
turns someone else on, too.

(Aside: A drink or two couldn't hurt. That's what it's there for.)

~~~
astrec
I'm with you on taking a buddy - nothing like the spirit of competition to get
you over the line.

Tech events are great too - barcamps, meetups etc. You'd be surprised at
exactly how many hackers don't just defy the monosyllabic geek stereotype, but
smash it out of the park.

~~~
marcus
We used to play a game in bars and other places, one friend picks a random
person and you need to hold that persons attention for X minutes of
conversation. Fail to do it and the next round is on you.

Iterate until you are comfortable with it, and can leave your wallet at home.

------
cousin_it
A year of boxing worked for me. The experience of being in the ring, seeing
his eyes while he's trying to punch your face, works wonders. You become
peaceful and confident in everyday interactions.

Singing and playing guitar helps too, it makes you wanted and welcome, which
you want to be.

A non-trivial fact for me was that a lot of conversations aren't about
information; talking is a game, played for fun. Read "Fear and Loathing in Las
Vegas", watch "Pulp Fiction", and try to do the same.

------
projectileboy
Start by pretending to be genuinely interested in other people's lives, and
their problems. If you pretend this for long enough, you'll find yourself
actually feeling that way. And then you'll enjoy being around people, because
they'll enjoy being around you.

~~~
staunch
I'm not sure you have to pretend at all. Try to realize that everyone and
everything has a story and that it's often interesting to find out what it is.

Some people and things are more interesting than others of course. Learning
how to gracefully exit a conversation is step #2.

~~~
projectileboy
I agree with you - I didn't mean to sound overly cynical. Although I find that
I _do_ have to pretend when I'm dealing with people who are initially rude or
hostile to me. And I don't always succeed at pretending :-). But I can when
I'm at my best. And over time, I can begin to genuinely appreciate their
stories, too.

------
petercooper
Some great answers on here! Just wanted to give a contrary view though..

I tried becoming more "socially adept" for quite a while, but even though I
can put on a pretty lively appearance on the outside, it's just not me. I'm an
introvert and I accept that.

One of the best bits of advice I've heard recently is to "focus on strengths,
not weaknesses." That is, there's no point hammering away improving at things
you're bad at, and ending up mediocre at everything, if you can focus on the
things you already kick ass at and become world class!

Most people who are socially inept tend only to be so with the public or
people who are not considered close to them. Take Stanley Kubrick. He got a
reputation for being an appallingly bad socializer, yet most of his closest
contacts talk about what a friendly and amazing person he was.

So.. enough people are socially awkward, or even downright grating, but are or
were world class in their field. These people should be an inspiration. Don't
hammer away at making yourself a socially popular person if it takes energy
away from being kickass.. because if you're kickass, you don't need many
social skills.

~~~
yters
I think that's good advice, but I also do think I'm missing something. For
some reason I am just not at ease around others, and I don't get it. I think I
lack a sense of self, there's always a need for confirmation from others, not
that you would think so if you knew me.

Essentially, there is something missing and I feel disconnected from others. I
cannot engage them on an intuitive level, I engage them on an analytical level
which tries to look natural, because my intuition is not normal, i.e. doesn't
sync with most people. I think this is true for many introverts, and is why
they tend to be exhausted by social interaction.

~~~
OpenWebU
My brother just came back from the Hoffman Institute - an intensive 9 day
seminar where they address how to have genuine and connected communications -
picking up on patterns, and in a group therapy setting, reworking those
patterns so you are reconnected... <http://www.hoffmaninstitute.org/>

------
wheels
You can't read yourself into social adeptness. I'd suggest participating in
some non-nerd social gatherings. Figure out something you like and go spend
some time doing it. Oddly enough, the nerds you do meet in other contexts tend
to be interesting and well connected. (In Berlin for instance, there's a large
overlap between the open source / founders social scenes and the electronic
music scenes. I met my cofounder and many of the contacts that we're using
through music rather than, say, the local LUG.)

~~~
knarf
I second the "meet nerds in other contexts" cause. I played some theatre at my
university and besides becoming friends with some very cool girls and
traveling the world, I strangely enough met a lot of other cs guys there. And
those are the ones who are indeed more interesting as they have a life beyond
their computer, travel the world and have a broader context in life.

------
davidw
I had a good time with salsa dancing. It's a good way to meet girls, requires
some actual skill (that can be learned with some effort), is fun in any case,
and... dancing can tell you a lot about someone in a surprisingly short period
of time.

------
mechanical_fish
A) Practice, practice, practice.

B) Listening. Speaking is an important part of socializing, but it's a minor
part.

------
justindz
If you are a programmer and strongly left-brained (not always the same thing),
I'd suggest tricking yourself into thinking you have a logical approach to
interpersonal relationships and then going to social gatherings quickly before
you over-analyze.

Step 1 - Read most of [http://www.amazon.com/Nlp-21-Days-Harry-
Alder/dp/0749920300/...](http://www.amazon.com/Nlp-21-Days-Harry-
Alder/dp/0749920300/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1208783416&sr=8-1) \-
this is NOT a good scientific book, but it seems to be good at convincing you
to step outside your comfort zone. Optionally, skip this step and do sit-ups
and push-ups instead which will make you feel more confident and comes with a
low price tag.

Step 2 - Practice on an opposite-gendered friend whom you have _no_ romantic
interest in. If such a person does not exist, skip this step.

Step 3 - Attend social events. These are easy to find: book groups, local
music, free martial arts class. Talk to people with no intent to "hook up" or
even make friends. And I don't mean "tell yourself you're not interested so
you'll have a better shot." I mean just talk to them. Ask something about the
event. Ask what time it is (don't wear a watch or carry a cell phone). You
don't have to have a conversation. You just have to communicate. Likewise,
anytime you eat at a restaurant require yourself to compliment at least one
employee while you are there.

Step 4 - Rinse and repeat until you realize you're enjoying all of the events
and you talk to random people with more ease. As some of the comments have
said, you can have great conversations talking about silly stuff that you
don't care about if you enjoy the process of facilitating a good conversation.

Tips:

Don't drink unless you _know_ your limit and have a pre-established track
record for staying under your limit. Otherwise, you will end up undoing all
confidence building when you get hammered and embarrass yourself once.

Avoid drunk people. They are a pain in the ass and will spill things on you.
Both of these tips are easy to stick to if you don't go where people are
drinking.

~~~
yters
I suspect you're right about the analytical approach causing me problems. But,
I've had a lot of "step out of your comfort zone" type advice throughout my
life. I've done this, but I guess I'm not persistent enough. At any rate, I'd
like another approach if possible.

------
randomuttering
One thing most geeks have in common is the ability to process information.
Most of us don't have great social skills because we don't participate in
social events but even more so we don't pay attention when we're in these
situations. When you're in social group, push aside your latest paradigm and
actually watch what other people are doing, its easy to pick out the people
with the best interpersonal abilities. Watch them but don't mimic, instead
find similarities in yourself (your interpersonal muscles) and then start
working them out. Walk up to people and introduce yourself. Its hard at first
but eventually it'll come naturally.

------
jdavid
I suggest reading the following books, but I also suggest not using their
suggestions. These books are merely for awareness. I fee like knowing what was
out there, gave me more confidence while I was trying to find my own style.

[the Game] - this book is about the secret lives of pickup artists and their
quest to find either a Beta or Alpha Gal. This book offers- ZERO advice if you
are looking for a Gamma.

[The Art of Deception: Controlling the Human Element of Security] - from Kevin
Mitnick, one of the fore-most books on social engineering. Reading this book
kept us out of a few scams.

~~~
wehriam
I agree with jdavid - books on gender-related issues can be helpful. [The
Game] is hysterical. Read the ones for guys and girls. Some others:

[How to Succeed with Women] - Sounds cheesy, but goes over the basics that
"geeks" often miss, including dressing appropriately, grooming, and polite
conversation.

[He's Just Not That Into You] - Manual for women on how to tell if a guy
doesn't care about them. Useful for learning about behaviors to avoid and
their underlying reasons.

[Self-Made Man: One Woman's Journey into Manhood and Back] - Can't recommend
this one enough. Norah Vincent lived for a year as a man, and reports back on
the challenges and successes she had. Invaluable for understanding both men
and women.

~~~
elai
I disagree with self-made man. She confuses eye flirting with 'rude' eye
contact, and other misunderstandings that would be unique to lesbians. Of
course when the men don't want to flirt with you because they think your a
guy, they don't try to keep eye contact with you! Something like self-made man
could be counter productive, giving you negative social ideas that could make
you even more awkward.

~~~
wehriam
"Eye flirting" might be perceived as rude in the wrong context by people who
aren't lesbians. Understanding that context is part of being socially adept.

There's a fine line between confident and creepy.

~~~
jdavid
yeah, i tend to find, confidence requires you to act quickly and with allowing
her to reject you. creepy usually rests in hesitation, and well non
confrontational actions from a distance.

i will usually look, smile, and see if she responds, before i say something.
if she does not smile, i go back to something else.

------
nomad
Not focusing on how you feel socially inept goes a long way. People will cut
you some slack if you cut yourself some.

------
kj400
"...of awkward self consciousness, and feeling ashamed about said self
consciousness" "...can't connect at the small talk level. I have an easy time
talking with people like xlnt about abstract ideas and philosophy..." "but I
strike out with anyone my age"

those express exactly (exactly!) as I feel. Let's see how much more we can
relate. Do you also:

-Think that you are quite a weird yet funny individual, and wish you can show that to the people you know, but somehow can't? -Also, you are often feel "closed-out" when another exuberant person comes on scene. Also, you have no problem chatting, emailing, etc. and can express yourself without limitation that way. -Speeches are easy because everyone uniformly has their attention on you, but when you are in a casual group situation and have to vie for attention it gets intimidating (and you will undoubtedly reprimand yourself for later). -You also find it hard to come out and say something once you already start a pattern of not saying anything, as you begin to become over-anxious about people's reaction to your change. ...

this list can go on and on...if you're not looking at this thread anymore,
yters, at least i got to spill my guts out which doesn't feel that bad. If you
want to continue the list, i'd love to hear other people's situations as well,
we can treat it as a fun little game.

~~~
yters
Yes, good phrasing. I think I feel some of that less now, i.e. social shame
and getting closed out. But this was very true especially when I was in high
school.

Spilling my guts is something that's helpful for me too.

------
aneesh
Shyness is self-perpetuating. So start small, by doing something as simple as
saying hi to people in an elevator (btw, elevators are a great place to talk
to people, because they can't avoid you).

When you go to social events, go with a friend and make it a friendly
competition to see who can meet the most interesting people.

Volunteer to do as many public speaking things as you can. And just generally
force yourself out of your comfort zone. Reading won't get you very far, it's
just practice practice practice.

------
Dylanfm
I understand what you are saying. I often find myself in situations where I
don't have the confidence or care to involve myself in, or to initiate, a
discussion. I spent a few years as a bartender and something I've learned is
that you can always talk about the present. There are tons of things you share
with another in any given moment, and often they are new experiences. Finding
a common ground like that can be a great way to begin.

------
mrtron
Read "How to Make Friends and Influence People".

Oh you said besides that...well practice what it preaches. Us folk
(geeks/nerds/hackers) tend to like to show how much we know about a subject.
Some old dude is talking about how his phone can now surf the web...what do
you say? Act a bit surprised and ask him a bit more about the subject. Let HIM
show what he knows, and get that little feeling of self-importance. Don't
squash it by saying you could ssh in to work on your phone 5 years ago and
that his phone is garbage.

Also practice, and have someone judge your performance. There are a zillion
things to improve on here, it is a difficult art to master. I would also say
it is a long road that I wouldn't be satisfied in saying I know well until I
can sit in a room with anyone at anytime and befriend them and/or convince
them they want to reconnect with me again shortly.

One last thing, I have the most difficulty talking to people I know well and
respect. For example, I was recently discussing business and my goals with an
old co-worker I really respected, and I found myself a bit flustered. Anyone
else experienced this and/or have any suggestions?

~~~
mlinsey
I found that "How to Make Friends and Influence People" was really good but
more suited to the workplace/building up business contacts.

~~~
mrtron
Valid point, it did have that feel.

But I think the key points are suited to all interactions. If you are first
meeting someone...and I don't know how to phrase this to be politically
correct...you are 'intimately' interested in, perhaps telling them about your
magic card collection isn't the best approach. You could discuss his/her
Starcraft skills instead :)

------
dpapathanasiou
Here's a quote from "Happy to Burn"
(<http://www.surreal.com.au/sankhara/Happy_To_Burn.pdf>):

 _The most effective way I know of is the giving of ourselves. I don't mean in
the passionate sense, but more as a form of empathy, as a spiritual
generosity._

 _For instance, try responding to people as if they were your brother or
sister instead of a stranger, with candid good will; usually they'll respond
in kind. If someone does something you like, tell them - nothing gushy, just
let them know in a direct and quietly thankful way._

 _Let someone in a hurry go ahead of you in a queue, let them overtake you
when you're driving, thank the bank teller or the shop assistant. All these
things are so small, but they all add up, and from each act there will be a
corresponding positive effect within you._

 _The giving of yourselves in this way has an immediate and positive effect on
the mind/body. Try to be aware of how it feels as you do all of these things.
You will feel your whole mind/body loosening up, a feeling of lightness that
can't be achieved in any other way._

------
dataangel
The best method for you probably varies based on _why_ you're socially inept.
If it's because you haven't interacted enough with other people, then the
advice others have given to get more experience makes sense. If it's because
you're under confident or constantly worried about things the other person is
thinking, you should work at getting rid of your insecurities.

The right course of action will then depend on the insecurity, but exercise
and improved health generally boosted my confidence. If you experience anxiety
over others judging you, consider that in most situations the person you're
worried about probably isn't paying much attention to you, and even if they do
notice you do something odd, they won't necessarily remember it; everything
only revolves around you in _your_ head. Most of all, just get off your butt
and do something about whatever bothers you -- if you're embarrassed by your
long hair, get a haircut. A surprising number of my own insecurities were
things like that -- easily fixable if I only took the time to calm down,
consider them, and make a list of solutions.

------
pg
Observe people who are.

~~~
waldrews
But just observing isn't enough; it can be tempting to use observing as an
excuse not to practice and talk.

------
jeffrese
Want to change your lifestyle? You need to force it, it is difficult and you
need to get out of your comfort zone and put yourself in awkward situations.
Here is a great book with a 30 day lifestyle challenge. Each day is a new
challenge. By day 30 you will be comfortable walking up to and engaging any
stranger in interesting conversations. Day one challenge for instance is start
five conversations with 5 strangers. Each day there is a new challenge and
they get progressively harder and funny enough easier as you become more
comfortable outside your comfort zone. [http://www.amazon.com/Rules-Game-Neil-
Strauss/dp/0061540455/...](http://www.amazon.com/Rules-Game-Neil-
Strauss/dp/0061540455/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1208813483&sr=1-1)

------
Soothsayer
Read a book on Typewatching/MBTI. I've found it's much easier to relate to
people when I understand the differences between their personalities and my
own.

------
dbreunig
Come on, this isn't about hacking people." Forget the X minutes, forget the
competition, and just get out for face time with people.

Go to events that you're actually interested in (talking to someone with
similar interests is stacking the deck), join a club or society in the same
vein. When you've got a free night, check out the local calendar. Whatever you
do, just get in the habit of going out, going out, going out! Don't prepare,
read up for tips, construct elaborate plans...just go out. Most people are out
for the same reason as you. Culley says it best when he says you can't find
this in a book. It takes effort.

And remember: the worst thing that can happen is you stay inside and nothing
happens.

~~~
yters
Yeah, I've tried this to some extent, and I'm no social recluse. Right now my
main source of socialization is attending a church service with people my age
(who aren't a bunch of cloistered preacher kids). I do this at least once
every weekend. I also meet with an older couple, interact with classmates and
teachers, etc. I've also tried going clubbing with groups of people, but the
clubs depress me. I seem to be able to get along great with people outside my
peer group (i.e. older and younger who don't see me as equal), but I strike
out with anyone my age.

------
samratjp
IGNORE every advice out there including this, but do learn to LISTEN without
jumping to conclusions - ironically, nature works in such a way that a good
listener is considered exponentially nice already :) Oh, one more thing, if
you learn about yourself, you are social already, for everyone else out there
has the same social "adept"ability concerns - so take it easy on them and you
are on your way to being a socialite (in the good sense of the word, not the
crazy paparazzi); so, only if you find yourself truly, i.e. that listening is
important, then the real learning takes place and fear burns away.

------
dskhatri
Consider attending events about things you're interested in/ where the you
have similar interests with the people attending. For example, you could go to
more alumni events. Go with the intention of meeting at least 5 new people.
You don't have to end up with their business card or contact information. Just
practice as someone else mentioned. You'll find yourself gaining more
confidence and you can start branching out to other kinds of events. This is
what I did and it helped me.

------
clay
I've heard improv classes go a long way.

~~~
ecommercematt
They worked wonders for Michael Scott on "The Office."

------
epi0Bauqu
What exactly is most troubling for you?

~~~
yters
I don't know. I shut down around the more social, outgoing people. It's
partially a vicious regression of awkward self consciousness, and feeling
ashamed about said self consciousness.

The other part is dreadful boredom, which I know sounds way arrogant, but I'm
not saying I'm bored because I think I'm better (though that's part of it). I
also seem to lack something, not sure what. I've heard about people with small
souls and no chests, and I think that's me.

~~~
Tichy
Well, remember Paris Hilton's advice: to appear to be interesting, say as
little as possible. So maybe you have the wrong perception of yourself, and
appear more interesting to the social outgoing people than you realise -
without jumping through hoops.

------
thingsilearned
Use your hacker skills to analyze what makes people cooler or more personal
than you. List those things, then execute solutions.

Things: wardrobe, humor, hair, attitude, conversation, hygene

Dating is a huge help. A girl will help you improve all of the above things.

WARNING: Don't apply hacker skills to understanding women (on anything more
than a very high level). You'll hit a critical error.

------
dusklight
Well have you read "How to Make Friends and Influence People"?

If you haven't, the advice in it sums up to: be honest, respect others,
respect yourself. That's really all there is to it.

The important thing about how to make more friends is to know how to BE a
friend. Think about what you can offer other people, think about how to make
the law of comparative advantage work for you.

I also highly recommend Eckhart Tolle's "A New Earth" .. which will not
directly talk about how to make friends, but will dig into the root causes of
why you have issues with making friends.

Also I would say, one thing that helped me a lot, is I have recently been
watching the latest season of "Beauty and the Geek." observe closely the
character of "Joe," and instead of laughing at him or thinking how much better
you are than him, think about how you are, how all of us are, so very much
like him and so very much unwilling to admit it.

------
DaniFong
Learn to genuinely like people.

~~~
xlnt
there are a lot of replies kind of like this. but wouldn't it be better to
learn to accurately judge people, and _not_ socialize with people who aren't
worthwhile?

~~~
elai
Judgmental people are not successful socially. Get off your geek high horse!

~~~
yters
But it is for this very reason we geeks always gripe about higher management,
at least the ethically loose people who blended in with the crowd to work
their way up the ladder.

------
yters
Thanks for the comments, this is kinda cathartic to see that you guys care. I
haven't really seen anything new though, so I think advice is useless for me.

\- EDIT -

That's too strongly worded. I'm being moody.

Really though, I quite appreciate the concern. And I'll take the advice
seriously and put it into practice.

------
sebg
A few months ago I went down the same road that you did because of my
frustrations with social interactions. I read "How to make friends...", tried
to talk to people on the street, tried social lubricants like alcohol and
caffeine. To my dismay, nothing seemed to work or stick. Then I read the book
"The Game" and started getting into the "pick up" scene. While I felt (and
still do) uncomfortable with the sometimes negative views of women and social
interactions, I have to say that many of the "whys" and "hows" that they teach
have helped me a great deal. The one that has helped me the most is
<http://www.pickuppodcast.com>.

~~~
yters
I skimmed that book. I did feel pretty energized and powerful after reading
it, like I had the inside track on things. I feel weird about that sort of
thing though. I don't want to get laid or anything.

One guy gave me roses to pass out to pretty women at a bar to try and hook up.
I passed them out because I do like the idea of recognizing beautiful women,
but I shut down when one actually was interested in me and tried to make
contact. I also tried drinking and another tried dirty dancing with me, but I
mainly just got depressed and I was pretty much a fish.

------
ardit33
I think it comes with age and experience.

When I was right off school, I had the same problems as you guys, mainly
overthinking about everything, and everybody you meet, makes it hard to just
have casual conversations.

Just as I learned in soccer, you should just stop overthinking and
overanalyzing, and just go with it, causually and naturally.

Also, in my current job, I interact with a lot more people everyday, so I was
forced out of my shell a while ago.

But, when you are in parties, you have to make some effort to reach to people
and talk to them. Even thou nothing might come out of it, it is better than
just staying in one corner and doing nothing.

Anyway, stop reading books and just put yourself out there and practice.

It will help when you meet girls.

------
harbinger
I actually listen to PickUp Podcast (<http://www.pickuppodcast.com>) and found
their advice to be right on point. I plan to enroll in one of their coaching
programs in the near future.

------
mattmaroon
Go to bars and pull up seats next to random people. Make a game out of it. See
how long you can hold a conversation until it gets awkward.

~~~
yters
Yeah, this sort of suggestion is motivating. Actions that shatter everyone's
mental rut and bring newness to everyone's experience motivate me. I might do
what you say, or something similar.

The thing that turns me off in interpersonal interaction is the rote manner of
interaction that I don't know, and don't want to learn. When people interact
as they really are is what interests me.

For instance, a teacher challenged me to ask a girl out, so I made a dare out
of it with a friend. Girl turned me down though:P a couple of them.

~~~
mattmaroon
I'm not entirely sure what you mean by "rote manner of interaction that I
don't know, and don't want to learn."

If you mean the talking about the weather thing, that's what talking people in
bars should teach you to get beyond.

~~~
yters
No, it isn't small talk. It's people expecting me to act in a certain way and
not liking it when I don't.

Maybe I'm just wanting two conflicting goals. The expected way of acting is
natural for most people, but not for me, and I wish I could interact in a way
that is natural for me too.

I think I'll give the bar thing a shot. Any types of people I should watch out
for?

~~~
mattmaroon
I think people have fewer expectations than you might assume. Most people
spend too much time judging themselves when interacting to bother doing it to
others. But the way you judge yourself makes you assume others are judging
you, but they're not, they're focusing on themselves. If that makes any sense,
which it may not.

I'd say work your way up to attractive women. They're the hardest for a number
of reasons (you're afraid of them due to approach anxiety, they're used to
approaches and are more on their guard, etc.) Start off talking to guys and
less attractive females. People are always most receptive toward people who
appear to be in their own demographic and social status level, so start there
and work your way out.

~~~
yters
One more note. I don't think people are consciously judging me, it's just
their natural reaction. I realize most people are much less aware than I am.

But, it isn't my natural reaction, which is why I have to learn how their
system of interaction works, which seems like too much trouble.

------
jeroen
I could tell you what works for me, but unless your personality is much like
mine (which is unlikely), that isn't going to help you.

The best way to find out what works is to try. Just go out there and interact
with people. Observe them to see how you are doing.

------
rokhayakebe
You need not to talk much. I have read somewhere that if you listen 90% of the
time and talk 10% of the time, people will find you very interesting and
socially adept. Life as an introvert can be quite hard.

~~~
yters
Eh, or if you're me people think your weird and aloof, or some kind of aspie.

------
mxyzptlk
Read "How to Win Friends and Influence People", then practice what you learn.
It's even in the start up FAQ.

<http://www.paulgraham.com/startupfaq.html>

------
jamescoops
Just be a decent person - if you're at an event and talking to someone and
another person is hovering near by, bring them into your conversation. Be
friendly, try and help people etc

------
rockstar9
A lot of times, if you just force yourself to smile and be friendly, it starts
to feel more natural. Just do it.

What was that one line? To be enthusiastic, you have to act enthusiastic!

------
noodle
really, its very simple:

1) practice a lot

2) recognize/record your problems/faults/issues.

3) work on either improving the improvable problems, or working around the
unimprovable ones.

it would really help to have a friend looking on from the outside to help note
problems. you have to be really open to change to make this work, though.

------
hobbs
Just remember WWAPD: What Would Austin Powers Do?

------
caveman82
Smile :-)

------
giles_bowkett
Pickup-chicks stuff I have to give very mixed reviews. Yes walking up and
introducing yourself to people will make you better at talking to them. That
much is certainly undeniable. But the online communities associated with such
things have some significant downsides.

I hate to do this but I'm going to advocate acting classes. The reason I hate
to do it is there's always somebody in an improv class who's obviously just
there to become more spontaneous. If you study acting because you have a
genuine interest in doing it, people who are there to become more spontaneous,
or better at public speaking, or whatever, are just annoying as hell. Acting
classes _do_ make you socially adept but _PLEASE_ avoid serious professional
acting classes in favor of weekend workshops at community colleges. Also if
you are "that guy" and you're taking acting classes without any real interest
in acting please understand that the serious actors want you to die.

I think the best option suggested here is user groups and presentations in
front of other geeks. Not because talking to geeks is going to expose you to
incredible social skills - far from it - but because sincere interest is a
much healthier motivator for any type of social activity than the desire to be
social for its own sake.

~~~
yters
I did Toastmasters and was pretty good at it. I've also given presentations to
large groups of people and high ranking people. I don't think public speaking
and spontaneity are my problem.

------
concealed
Going out every day during lunch break to pick up girls in the town center
with a guy who was very good and natural at it worked great for me.

So, I'd say find someone who's really good at socializing and hang out with
him. 1000x better and faster than any book or doing it on your own.

------
xlnt
don't. people are generally least interesting in casual, social situations.
for example, most of the people in this thread have said reasonably
interesting, intelligent ideas. but at a bar they'd say worse things.

~~~
misuba
For anyone who couldn't figure out what the earlier replies r.e. judging
people had to do with anything, the parent reply is an illustration.

~~~
yters
What he says is my problem though. I can't connect at the small talk level. I
have an easy time talking with people like xlnt about abstract ideas and
philosophy, but I suck at talking about "real" things.

~~~
xlnt
"it's a feature not a bug"

what do you imagine would be the great benefits of having more casual social
interactions?

~~~
yters
I don't really know. I suspect you are right, that it is part of my nature to
be this way. But it is hard for me to be convinced, since almost everyone I
respect thinks differently and encourages me to be more social.

~~~
xlnt
well, what do they say the benefits would be? ask them to give solid reasons,
and explain it until you are convinced! and they ought to have a plan for how
you can do it before being sure it's a good thing for you to do.

also they should be open to the possibility that they are mistaken; the
conversation ought to be able to go either way.

~~~
yters
The basic point is that I'm narcissistic and need to be brought out of myself.
I say I don't really know, because I can't see it myself. But, that's par for
the problem of narcissism:P

~~~
wheeler
Like Soothsayer said earlier, I recommend you read a book about Myer-Brigg
personality types in order to understand why other people behave as they do,
why they expect you to behave in the same way, and why it's not your natural
inclination to do that. Then you can accept who you are, and understand that
you're always going to be acting to some extend when, e.g., engaging in small
talk.

A book would be better than an online test because the point should be to
learn about all the other personality types, and how they interact, rather
than understand your own.

[http://www.amazon.com/Please-Understand-Me-Character-
Tempera...](http://www.amazon.com/Please-Understand-Me-Character-
Temperament/dp/0960695400/ref=pd_bbs_5?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1208824604&sr=8-5)

~~~
yters
Now that I think about it, that's a good suggestion.

------
mroman
I think motivating others to socializing with you would be more comfortable
for you (as in let them do the work, so to speak), and that takes charisma.
Didn't pg write that (paraphrasing) charisma is basically about liking people?

Disclaimer: I am quite socially inept, and don't even care . . .

