
The Vigilante Manifesto - tbfaux
https://medium.com/@CrimeNoMore/vigilante-manifesto-e665696a4ebb#.82wc9fo30
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HorizonXP
The lens of a camera cannot lie, but video editing can.

In the spirit of trying new ideas, I think this is definitely an interesting
one. I think it will be interesting to see how the public responds to this.

That said, I see a couple of things happening: 1) Most people will not care
about this, nor use it. Human apathy is pretty powerful, and I don't mean that
in a bad way. I think the majority of us are happy going about our own lives,
and don't really want to upset that order. If a crime is happening, I don't
think a lot of people will react to it, especially like in the video.

2) A small percentage of people will react, but that's probably not what you
want in a situation like this. In emergency response, the number one thing
they drill into you is to ensure the area is safe and secure. Paramedics will
not render aid to a person if it means they could be harmed themselves. It's
useless to have the paramedic injured as well as the victim(s).

LEO and emergency personnel are trained to respond to these situations, and
are paid to put their lives on the line. Adding other citizens to the mix is
dangerous and irresponsible. I understand that Vigilante is only encouraging
people to record what's happening, but even that act is dangerously
provocative.

Nevertheless, it is an interesting idea, and I likely have outlined the same
kneejerk reaction that most would have to this, and I could very well be
wrong. I think this type of app would work best in larger situations like at
protests or more open public spaces. Situations like those in the video
probably won't happen often, and probably would have the issues I brought up.
But then, how is Vigilante different from folks just posting videos on FB
Live, Twitter/Periscope, etc.?

~~~
smokeyj
> LEO and emergency personnel are trained to respond to these situations, and
> are paid to put their lives on the line.

The keyword here is paid. We need more market forces in policing. It needs to
be easier to fire bad actors and promote the good ones.

~~~
incongruity
Actually, training is a pretty important word there too...

We can debate about the quality of current training standards for certain case
types, but on balance, I think it's hard to dispute that many situations need
the expertise of trained first responders (paid or unpaid). More people on
scene doesn't always make things better. Without thinking about the specific
problems this is meant to solve and working to enable solutions, this app can
be just as dangerously bad as it tries to be good.

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jdmaresco
We released a blog post and video to explain more about the vision behind the
app: [https://medium.com/@CrimeNoMore/vigilante-
manifesto-e665696a...](https://medium.com/@CrimeNoMore/vigilante-
manifesto-e665696a4ebb)

~~~
ch4s3
Your claim about 2015 murder rates seems to be fear-mongering, from where I
stand. The murder rate nationally is at a 51 year low, even with the 2015
uptick[1].

What exactly is the aim here? Your question "Could we restore trust between
law enforcement and community" doesn't seem to be answered in the post, and
the implication that your app could do this seems dubious.

Is you aim to get people to flock to 911 calls and film them? That seems like
what the post is driving at, but never directly says.

[1][https://mises.org/blog/fbi-us-homicide-rate-51-year-
low](https://mises.org/blog/fbi-us-homicide-rate-51-year-low)

~~~
jdmaresco
We debated whether to leave those statistics in, even though we're citing
major sources. You can look at these statistics from different angles.

Our main point is that there is still a real and often growing problem with
violent crime, especially in the communities we're working with. Many people
still feel very unsafe and are looking for solutions.

We've gotten a lot of positive feedback both from police and civilians. People
are excited to see a tech company trying to help, and they have told us they
feel safer when others are recording the scene in a peaceful and unbiased way.
During our beta tests we had users help deter crime, break up fights, and
support their neighbors.

~~~
ch4s3
>Our main point is that there is still a real and often growing problem with
violent crime

That's just it though, the data do not support this claim. The general trend
is decreasing crime. In fact the sole source you cite says:

>Many crime experts warn against reading too much into recent statistics. In
fact, murder rates remained largely unchanged in 70 cities, and decreased
significantly in five. “Even if the uptick continues in some cities, I doubt
the pattern will become universal,” Dr. Sampson said.

And sure, you have some positive feedback, great. But how often has your app
been misused? How "concerned citizens" mistaken an innocent person as having
been involved in a crime? What about the privacy of victims of crimes? How do
you store your data? How do you ensure privacy? Do you give data to law
enforcement? Without warrants? Do you disclose any of this data? What do you
do to protect extra sensitive data like domestic abuse, and sexual assaults?

Why should we trust you?

------
rymohr
One time I was at the park with my three kids and all the sudden every parent
at the playground grabbed their kids, rushed to the parking lot, and got the
hell out of there.

I had no idea what was going on. So we kept skateboarding.

Next thing I know cop cars are zipping in and out of the neighborhood, dozens
of police are running around jumping fences, and there's a helicopter circling
overhead.

Our car was parked in the center of the chaos, so we stayed on the far side of
the park and watched.

Would have loved to have an app like this that day. Still never got to the
bottom of what was actually going on. Or figured out how all those other
parents were privy to the situation before I was.

~~~
freeformed_co
I think a lot of people have experienced situations where they'd like to know
(or at least have the option to know) what is happening around them.

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0xffff2
It's absolutely unfathomable to me that someone thought this was a good idea.
If I'm calling 911, it's because I need professional emergency services.

Can someone name even one scenario where some random person off the street
intervening is more likely to harm than to help when intervening in a
situation based on this app?

~~~
throwusawayus
I can't verify this, but I was told that the lead investor is Peter Thiel /
Founders Fund. Seems believable, since it's consistent with his investment
thesis.

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teilo
No possibility of controversy here. Especially with a name like that. Wow.

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moduspwnens14
Music plays when I open the app for the first time, despite my ringer being
off.

It certainly looks like a cool idea, although it says my area isn't covered
yet.

~~~
cloudjacker
annnd you're dead, thanks Vigilante! Maybe they'll push respawns in the next
update

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drivingmenuts
Apple really needs to get a different URL for the app store. My first thought
was "what dumbass at Apple thought that would be a good idea?"

Then I saw it was a non-Apple app.

~~~
daveguy
No, apple didn't write it, but I am surprised it made it to the app store at
all. This seems like it is ripe for abuse -- get instant updates on where the
police are heading next!

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alistproducer2
Sketch Factor[1] is that you?

[1]: [http://www.newyorker.com/business/currency/what-to-do-
when-y...](http://www.newyorker.com/business/currency/what-to-do-when-your-
app-is-racist)

------
jamesfe
Are there a lot of people who have the time and flexibility of schedules to go
chasing down 911 calls in their neighborhood?

I'm not heartless, I certainly open the front door and take a gander if I hear
my dog barking or a loud noise out front, but beyond that, I'm not sure I'd
just leave my family in the house with no plan other than to videotape what
could be a violent criminal in the heat of the moment.

Also, what relationship does this company have with a user once that user gets
shot in the chest for running around and videotaping an armed robbery with
their flashlight beaconing their position and activity to the criminal?

What about when someone calls in a sexual assault - are there protections for
their privacy?

~~~
EdHominem
> What about when someone calls in a sexual assault - are there protections
> for their privacy?

How do you think the company gets the 911 calls? You should focus your privacy
concerns upstream.

> I'm not sure I'd just leave my family in the house with no plan other than
> to videotape what could be a violent criminal in the heat of the moment.

Right, but so what? Someone else might, or might be able to from their window.
And if not, you weren't going to anyways.

> Also, what relationship does this company have with a user once that user
> gets shot in the chest

What relationship does Google have to a movie-viewer who doesn't like the
movies playing in the cinema that they asked Maps to direct them to?

> for running around and videotaping an armed robbery with their flashlight
> beaconing their position and activity to the criminal?

You can choose to move _away_ from the alerts, you know... The app doesn't
compel you, it only informs you.

I can see many non-violent but interventionary tactics people could use. A
pastor could use it, and respond to the 'Children harassing an old man' call
the website uses as an example. Not immediately, as if they could stop any
ongoing violence, but later to try to find the perpetrators and reach out to
them.

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akc
I had no idea dessert bars were so dangerous.

