
MEPs back EU ban on throwaway plastics by 2021 - lelf
http://www.europarl.europa.eu/news/en/press-room/20181018IPR16524/plastic-oceans-meps-back-eu-ban-on-throwaway-plastics-by-2021
======
hn23
Meanwhile all my vegetables, fruits etc is double packed or I pay three times
the price for unpacked stuff. In my home the amount of plastics I have to put
into the yellow bin has quadrupled over the last 10years.

~~~
mc32
I don’t really get why they styropak fruits and vegetables in parts of Asia
and Europe. I’m not talking bags, actual trays wrapped in plastic film—as
chicken meat in a US supermarket.

Unfortunately even the US is catching up to this trend where things are
portioned out in standard packs (rather than loose).

You can see how different countries have different customs for storing their
goods here [1], this was linked few days ago in a diff thread, but is
illustrative.

[1][https://menzelphoto.photoshelter.com/gallery/Hungry-
Planet-F...](https://menzelphoto.photoshelter.com/gallery/Hungry-Planet-
Family-Food-Portraits/G0000zmgWvU6SiKM/C0000k7JgEHhEq0w)

~~~
saidajigumi
This is very much a regional thing, in my experience. E.g. in parts of the
Southeastern US, I found that plastic+styrofoam overpackaging was ubiquitous
as far back as the 1980s. In markets I've been to in parts of the Northeast
and Northwest in decades since, it's been virtually nonexistent to entomb
produce in plastic – bulk produce has been the norm.

~~~
mc32
Oddly I’m seeing this packing creep in in places like Trader Joe’s and some
other (small) independents, not so much the big chains, thankfully.

~~~
striking
Trader Joe's, a small indie? Try "owned by one of the Aldis".

~~~
mc32
Yeah sorry, I missed the Oxford comma there. Those are separate sets.

~~~
striking
Fair!

------
umvi
One solution is to start a 1000 year landfill pipeline. Plastic is usually
inert and harmless in a landfill and will slowly decompose. Landfills >>
Rivers

~~~
darkpuma
A TON of people have an irrational gut reaction against landfills in general
and the concept of burying plastic in particular. There is absolutely no
shortage of landfill space, but due to some mafia fuckery in the 80s (MOBRO
4000: [https://slatestarcodex.com/2019/01/01/what-happened-
to-90s-e...](https://slatestarcodex.com/2019/01/01/what-happened-
to-90s-environmentalism/#5)) a ton of people think we're on the verge of
running out of space.

~~~
riffraff
If you try to open a new landfill you'll be against a ton of people protesting
you.

So we're not out of space in theory but in practice it's problematic.

~~~
mantap
The same goes for sewage treatment plants or basically any infrastructure at
all. A city where everybody is happy cannot exist.

------
B1FF_PSUVM
(clickbaity piece on topic, sort of)

Metal drinking straw fatally impales woman through her eye after fall

Elena Struthers-Gardner, 60, suffered brain injuries when she fell onto an
eco-friendly metal drinking straw which impaled her eye, an inquest heard.

[https://www.msn.com/en-us/health/health-news/metal-
drinking-...](https://www.msn.com/en-us/health/health-news/metal-drinking-
straw-fatally-impales-woman-through-her-eye-after-fall/ar-AAE5usQ)

~~~
erentz
I’m always very uncomfortable with people drinking out of bottles or using
straws or other utensils in a car while it’s in motion. If the driver needs to
brake urgently bad things can happen.

Bottles will take out your teeth. Straws and other utensils will damage your
palette and throat or an eye.

------
erentz
I wonder if the EU wouldn’t accomplish a lot more for the world if it worked
with (e.g.) China to fund a solution to catch the plastics flowing out of
their rivers.

[1] [https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/stemming-the-
plas...](https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/stemming-the-plastic-
tide-10-rivers-contribute-most-of-the-plastic-in-the-oceans/)

------
dwheeler
The article notes that "Single-use plastic items such as plates, cutlery,
straws, balloon sticks or cotton buds, will be banned in the EU under plans
adopted on Wednesday...." because "These products... make up over 70% of
marine litter".

Being 70% of marine litter is a good argument that there's a _problem_ to be
fixed, but banning something only makes sense if there are reasonable
alternatives or that doing without is acceptable. Plates and cutlery of
single-use plastic have obvious alternatives. Straws are more complicated;
here's one list discussing the alternatives: [https://earth911.com/food/straw-
alternatives/](https://earth911.com/food/straw-alternatives/) It wasn't clear
to me that the impacts of this proposal were considered in detail; I _hope_
the impacts were considered!

~~~
esotericn
Surely 'no straw' is an obvious alternative to straw? In a generic sense, 'no
X' should always be the first option if plausible.

If your car could run without fuel, we wouldn't need alternative fuels!

~~~
sleavey
Tell that to McDonalds' customers who will refuse to "eat" their milkshakes
without a straw. I do agree we should stop using these single use plastics,
especially for junk from McDonald's, but in this instance you can't just tell
people to stop using them in all circumstances.

~~~
tinus_hn
I’m sure the customers will eat milkshakes without a straw when the choices
are eating it without a straw and throwing it away. You don’t need to tell
people to stop using straws. You just stop giving them straws.

Realistically though the plastic straws will be replaced by a slightly more
expensive, biodegradable alternative.

------
cabaalis
I remember a few years ago Coca-Cola was creating a plant-based bottle. [1]
Does anyone know why this tech isn't taking off more than it has?

[1] [https://www.coca-colacompany.com/press-center/press-
releases...](https://www.coca-colacompany.com/press-center/press-
releases/coca-cola-produces-worlds-first-pet-bottle-made-entirely-from-plants)

~~~
checkyoursudo
My wife bought a plastic water bottle at McDonald's in Munich today. I can't
say that I've looked at them much before, but I happened to look at this one.
The label said "plantbottle®" and "14% nachwachsende Rohstoffe, 35% wieder
verwerteter Kunststoff, 100% recyclebar" ( _14% renewable raw materials, 35%
recycled plastic, 100% recyclable_ ). The numbers might not be exact, just
going by memory.

So there's something out there at least. It was Vio brand, which I think is a
Coke or Coke-related brand?

------
Ericson2314
I feel like a huge portion of trash in Manhattan is due to single use utensils
and container for food take out. The plastic bag ban that will take affect in
2 years doesn't even affect takeout.

The trash problem in Manhattan has to do with density and lack of room for
dumpsters in semi-public space, so it isn't more trash but just making
manifest the same trash problem as everywhere else but on a local scale. This
is a good microcosm for politics.

I use next to no paper at work, don't even bring a backpack, and yet use
plastic utensils every day. I'm stuff-free except this most basic wasteful
junk.

I would like to in addition to banning single use plastics also require that
all offices have dish washers, and all take out places allow you to bring your
own container.

------
api
Meanwhile the majority of the plastic comes from certain countries that will
remain unnamed and that will never do anything about it...

~~~
tomatotomato37
Before anyone starts saying anything about trash exports, some statistics for
you to consider (Copypasted from last time this came up, also sorry mobile
users for the formatting):

    
    
      2010 total plastic marine debris[0]: 4,800k - 12,700k metric tons
      2010 EU plastic marine debris[0]: 50k-120k metric tons (Higher than the US by ~1k)
      2010 EU plastic marine debris percentage[0]: 1%
      2016 EU export of nontoxic garbage to a country in top 10 plastic marine waste[2]: 269k tonnes (a lot missing statistics so wide error bars here)
      2015 percent of nontoxic garbage export that is plastic/mixed[1]: ~9%
    
      Probable amount of EU plastic that gets exported to top 10 country: 26.9k - 53.8k tonnes
      Crude adjusted EU ranking if 100% of the doubled amount makes it into the ocean: ~10th 
      Incredibly crude adjusted EU plastic marine debris percentage: 2%
    

[0]:
[https://www.iswa.org/fileadmin/user_upload/Calendar_2011_03_...](https://www.iswa.org/fileadmin/user_upload/Calendar_2011_03_AMERICANA/Science-2015-Jambeck-768-71__2_.pdf)
(the footnote of table 1 specifically)

[1]: [https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-
explained/index.php...](https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-
explained/index.php?title=Waste_shipment_statistics_based_on_the_European_list_of_waste_codes#Non-
hazardous_notified_waste_based_on_LoW)

[2]:
[http://appsso.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/nui/show.do](http://appsso.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/nui/show.do)
(You'll have to screw with the customizations to get useful statistics)

[3]: [https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/web/waste/transboundary-
waste-...](https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/web/waste/transboundary-waste-
shipments)

Edit: formatting

~~~
Pfhreak
> Incredibly crude adjusted EU plastic marine debris percentage: 2%

Whoa, you are telling me can have a measurable, whole integer impact? That
sounds like a huge win!

A lot of the ways we solve this problem are going to be <1% at a time. 0.05%
here, 0.75% there.

We could say, "this doesn't solve a big percentage of the problem so why
bother" or we can meaningfully tackle something as large as 0.5%.

~~~
darkpuma
Technically you can carve a wood log with a piece of sandpaper, but I
recommend a chainsaw.

~~~
Pfhreak
The problem we have is not a wood log. The problem we have is a widely
distributed pile of sawdust. If you find a wood log we can cut with a
chainsaw, by all means let's do so. I just don't believe it exists.

~~~
AcerbicZero
Here are 10 logs. Let me know if you need help starting the chainsaw.

[https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/stemming-the-
plas...](https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/stemming-the-plastic-
tide-10-rivers-contribute-most-of-the-plastic-in-the-oceans/)

When 93% of the ocean's plastic waste is coming from 10 riviers, those need to
be the focus. That doesn't mean ignore the ~7% coming from elsewhere, because
this truly is a problem we all need to solve together.

~~~
Pfhreak
Read that article again. 93% of the plastic _sent into the ocean by rivers_
comes from just 10 rivers. The article says between 4 and 25% of the ocean's
waste comes from rivers.

So, yes, there are some big items there. The Yangtze could be 2% - 12% (based
on the article's comment that it was roughly half of river trash.) But other
rivers are smaller, and we're back into the realm of talking about single
integer improvements.

~~~
darkpuma
Rivers are of particular interest because they represent the primary mechanism
by which _inland_ plastic finds it's way into the ocean. Coastal releases of
plastic only happen in coastal regions. Granted, most of the world's
population lives reasonably close to a coast, but even in those regions the
plastic waste is often carried to the ocean by water through smaller
waterways, such as rain water carrying plastic litter down storm drains. (Or
the waste is left directly on the beach and the next high tide picks it up.)

This article goes into the correlation between plastic waste in Asian rivers
and Monsoon season:
[https://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms15611](https://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms15611)

That correlation suggests that a large portion of plastic in Asian rivers is
being carried into those rivers by rain water, a similar mechanism to how
plastic waste is emitted from coastal regions.

Of course there are other mechanisms in play too, such as municipalities
deliberately, perhaps illegally, dumping their waste into rivers or off a
coast. But a ton of it is coming from ground litter either left directly on
the beach or carried to the ocean one way or another by water. Regions with
the heaviest rain and the most ground liter are the biggest contributors, as
you would logically expect.

