
America's Most Underappreciated Right: Public Assembly - welcome_dragon
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2019/12/americas-most-under-appreciated-right/603910/
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virtuous_signal
Something I wish was addressed is what the right to peaceable assembly even
looks like in the age of technology. I guess the same could be said about free
speech, but I feel the greatest threat to these rights isn't from the
government, but from tech monopolies whose platforms have become defacto "town
halls" or "town squares". If Reddit, Twitter, Discord etc, are how people
assemble and communicate in the 21st century, then what are the implications
of these companies being able to shut down groups unilaterally?

~~~
notatoad
The "Town square" has never given you a global audience.

Reddit, twitter, and discord are not the equivalent of a Town square, they're
a global square giving normal people access to an audience they never would
have previously had access to.

I get that you have opinions about this, but pretending that the right to have
your tweets promoted to an audience of millions and the right to free assembly
are in any way the same is just muddying the waters.

~~~
whateveracct
Well the first amendment also includes freedom of the press, which inherently
involves the amplification of speech to reach the masses. So I think the
Internet is easily covered.

~~~
joshuamorton
No, it prevents the government from censoring the press. It does not require
that any given press publish you. In other words, if you're going to consider
that "Facebook" is like "The Washington Post", you have no right to be
published in either.

And the government forcing either to publish you _is_ an attack on the freedom
of speech of the publisher. Because forcing them to say something they don't
want to is a clear and obvious violation of their freedom of speech.

~~~
Floegipoky
Freedom of the press has nothing to do with publishers or institutions; "the
press" is not a separate entity from "The People". All citizens may exercise
freedom of the press whether they're a credentialed journalist or a rando with
a camera phone. And I think the argument being made is that social media like
Facebook is more akin to a public forum than a curated publication like The
Washington Post.

~~~
joshuamorton
I'm well aware. Of what the press is, as defined by the Constitution.

And my point is that such an argument is wrong, and furthermore dangerous. If
you allow the government to control what Facebook can or cannot publish, well
you're now saying the government can control the press.

If it's a monopoly, deal with the monopoly. Being a monopoly doesn't revoke
constitutional rights.

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grecy
Assembling peacefully is OK in the USA, unless the authorities don't like it,
then it's not OK.

Like Occupy wall street when loads of people were arrested just for
assembling.[1]

Of course, there's always the classic "arrested for resisting arrest" [2] too.

[1] [https://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/oct/19/naomi-wolf-
arr...](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/oct/19/naomi-wolf-arrested-
occupy-wall-street)

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KeDsO5R8Xr0](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KeDsO5R8Xr0)

Even when you know the law, and follow it very closely, you can still be
arrested.

[2]
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Moe1-8rguk](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Moe1-8rguk)

~~~
Kalium
It's important to remember that even fundamental rights are subject to things
like time, place, and manner restrictions. The right to free speech does not
generally include doing so at 150Db at 2am in a residential neighborhood. It
also sometimes includes restrictions like not blocking public right-of-ways
while assembling in public. Freedom of religion does not extend to freedom to
engage in the practice of human sacrifice.

I understand that not everyone shares this understanding. I also understand
that not everyone agrees that such restrictions are reasonable.

~~~
grecy
I understand and agree with everything you said.

My understanding is that around 2000 people were arrested[1] for peacefully
assembling. It wasn't 2am, and they were not sacrificing any humans.

In the case of Naomi being arrested that I posted above, she very clearly knew
the sidewalks are public, and she was very clearly not breaking any laws, and
was arrested anyway. Of course charges were later dropped, because the Police
very well knew they had nothing on her.

So when the Police in the USA don't like your perfectly legal use of 'right at
assemble' they arrest you, fingerprint you, make sure you get a record and are
out of the way for a while, then just kick you out the back door when they're
sick of you.

That doesn't sound so great to me.

[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occupy_Wall_Street#Arrests](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occupy_Wall_Street#Arrests)

~~~
lawlessquestion
Then it would be up to a competent attorney to sue the arresting officer under
42 usc 1983 civil actions for deprivations of rights. The law provided for
reasonable attorney fees to be paid by a defendant who violated your civil
rights. The nice thing is that even though your suing the officer who violated
your civil rights they are usually covered by an insurance policy so it's
technically not an asset poor officer paying the judgement

~~~
grecy
> _Then it would be up to a competent attorney to sue the arresting officer
> under 42 usc 1983 civil actions for deprivations of rights. The law provided
> for reasonable attorney fees to be paid by a defendant who violated your
> civil rights_

So you somehow feel better about your rights being deprived because "sue
everyone". In the mean time the authorities have effectively shut down the
protest, that was perfectly legal. But they stopped it anyway. So it achieved
nothing, and the 'right to assemble' is a myth.

> _The nice thing is that even though your suing the officer who violated your
> civil rights they are usually covered by an insurance policy so it 's
> technically not an asset poor officer paying the judgement_

Ah, the _true_ American dream. Sue someone for a ton of money, and you don't
even have to feel bad about it because it's not even their money!

~~~
lawlessquestion
Better that then the successful plaintiff being left holding the bag when
their civil rights are horrifically violated. Excessive force cases can and do
result in death and disability not including whatever mental trauma. Better
the people that the state that employs law enforcement bear the cost
associated with their actions, then victims of civil rights violations are
unable to collect against a bankrupt defendant.

~~~
mistermann
Any comment on the "In the mean time the authorities have effectively shut
down the protest, that was perfectly legal" aspect?

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tus88
> Republicans have threatened to strip Planned Parenthood of its tax-exempt
> status

What on earth has that to do with public assembly?

~~~
whateveracct
I'm not sure, but I do know the court ruled that defunding Planned Parenthood
was a violation of their first amendment rights. But I don't think assembly
was it?

------
aSplash0fDerp
Digital surveillance has created somewhat of a dilemma for those that just
want their voice heard and has perverted public assembly along the way.

As mentioned, when the topic of assembly is Okay, its fine and dandy, but if
its only OK (ex. Pot rally) or deemed non-PC, the facial ID exploits, IMEI
catchers and LPR's ensure a detailed record of attendees (more than in
generations past) which is more than the "I got the t-shirt" souvenir most
expect.

Data brokers (public, private,government) have weaponized the first amendment
in many ways and it has been acknowledged in Hong Kong by the obfuscation
needed for peaceful assembly.

Its better to offer surrogates and dark money in a system like that, which
goes against the principles of democracy, but it is what it is.

Its the same way outside of America too:

[https://www.smh.com.au/politics/federal/this-student-
attende...](https://www.smh.com.au/politics/federal/this-student-attended-a-
protest-at-an-australian-uni-days-later-chinese-officials-visited-his-
family-20190807-p52eqb.html)

[https://www.indiatoday.in/india/story/german-student-
jakob-l...](https://www.indiatoday.in/india/story/german-student-jakob-
lindenthal-iit-madras-1631479-2019-12-25)

------
blzrdnofreespch
Worth mentioning this right is often shut down by bullshit police. In Berkeley
they shut down protests over police brutality after Eric Gardner died by
shooting tear gas into the crowds and beating whomever they could. I’ll admit
the next day they were more tame (thanks to all the videos catching their
abuse) but I’ll never forget seeing four officers beat up some female student
twenty feet away. Disgusting.

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jeffdavis
Strange to use the word "most" without much effort to compare to other rights.

And it also doesn't really define "underappreciated" very well.

