
How Seattle Got More People to Ride the Bus - colinprince
https://www.citylab.com/transportation/2017/10/how-seattle-bucked-a-national-trend-and-got-more-people-to-ride-the-bus/542958/?utm_source=SFTwitter
======
adamnemecek
My experience has been less than stellar. Busses coming 20 minutes late or not
at all. 545 at 6 pm on a weekday is so over packed I feel like I’m going to
second base with half of the bus.

Seattle should look to a city like Vienna or Prague. The transportation
systems are surprisingly well engineered but that might be due to the fact
that a larger part of the population takes it.

~~~
mulmen
I'm not a transit engineer but I think this is because we are asking buses to
do too much. When a route sends a bendy bus every 10 minutes it's no longer a
bus route and is now a really expensive train. The Rapid Rides are packed at
rush hour as well. What we need is something like light rail that can go
between neighborhoods and then let buses move people within those areas.

~~~
samsolomon
Are several of those extended buses really more expensive than light rail?
There's a lot of upfront cost for light rail and if demand changes, routes are
pretty inflexible.

~~~
WalterBright
Light rail will create demand to live near and locate businesses near the
stations.

~~~
DrScump
Can you name examples where this oft-predicted result has actually happened
(in the USA, anyway)? That certainly hasn't been the result in the Bay Area.

~~~
briandear
Definitely didn’t happen in Houston. There was a spike of enthusiasm but light
rail proximity has almost no effect on property values.

~~~
brewdad
Is Houston's light rail actually useful? Last I knew it really only ran from
one end of downtown to the other.

------
jorblumesea
All of these are great things, but I think there's a few other practical
considerations the author missed:

1) Paying for parking is really expensive compared to other cities. A downtown
parking spot is easily ~$300/month.

2) Most employers subsidize orca cards (transit pass) but do not subsidize
parking spots

3) With Seattle traffic being as bad as it is, most buses are just as fast as
cars because of the prioritization they get. In any other city the bus takes
twice as long. In Seattle it's on par with driving.

4) Seattle's natural geography encourages density which makes public transit
more effective. Most new hires and population growth is also happening in the
closer in neighborhoods which are already well connected to transit.

5) Suburban commuting is harshly punished by the above geographical and
societal pressures. If you live in Woodinville and commute to the SLU you're
looking at 1hr, one way, on a good day. Similar point about population growth
happening close in to the city.

~~~
TulliusCicero
Re: 4, it's funny because while Seattle is somewhat dense by American
standards...it's still got tons and tons of areas that are restricted to only
low-density detached single family homes. A major city like Seattle should
have few if any areas like that.

(Not that SFHs should be illegal of course, but they shouldn't be mandated)

------
bensonn
How did Seattle get more people to ride the bus? 1\. They made coummuting by
car miserable. Average commute time for Everett to Seattle (24 miles) is 76
minutes, Federal Way to Seattle (22 miles) is 66 minutes... Reducing
congestion is not a goal of WA DOT. 2\. They make driving really expensive.
$30 car tabs that cost hundreds (if not thousands) and one of the highest gas
taxes in the nation. 3\. They subsidize the heck out of it. Bus fares cover
less than 1/3 the cost of operating the bus.

Ironically, if it weren't for all the cars the buses couldn't afford to
operate. For every driver that switches to buses cost go up and revenue goes
down. Maybe this is fine, but I don't think it should be ingored.

This article seemed to praise Seattle and Metro but the area is always ranked
as one of the worst traffic areas in the nation. If it is working so well, why
is it so bad?

Is there something Seattle or King County Metro has done well that makes
people want to use it? Does it smell nice, is it quiet, are the drivers really
friendly, do they offer good coffee..? Or is mass transit around here "good"
compared to all the other bad options.

One thing that is not transit's fault that makes traffic bad around here-
Seattle area is filled with some of the worst drivers I have ever seen. Born
and raised here so I think I am allowed to criticize, we collectively suck at
driving!

~~~
techsupporter
Commuting from Everett to Seattle via single-occupant car has taken forever
since the turn of the century. 405 and I5 simply don't have the space for all
of those cars. _That 's_ what transit does: it provides an alternative--
primarily through the use of HOV/HOT lanes--to slogging along in your own car.

Also, on those car tabs, voters approved them ourselves. Every single transit-
related charge on your vehicle registration was approved by a measure put in
front of voters. (Same for sales tax.) I disagree strongly with our
legislature's predilection for punting hard tax issuers to voters but if
you're gonna blame anybody, you've only the voting public to blame. (Full
disclosure: I've voted "yes" on every single transit tax measure--except for
the monorail--I've ever seen.)

Oh, and on farebox recovery: very, very few transit systems recover their cost
of operation. In the United States, only the Las Vegas Monorail recovers 100%
of its costs. The only widely-used system that comes close is San Francisco's
BART at 71%. (All figures courtesy Wikipedia:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Farebox_recovery_ratio](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Farebox_recovery_ratio))

It may come as a surprise to you, but vehicle owners don't directly pay the
cost for the roads they drive upon, either. The motor vehicle fuel tax
basically pays for the Washington State highway system (including part of the
Washington State Ferries...which also has approximately a 70% farebox recovery
ratio[0]). County and local general fund taxes pay for local roads, including
basically every road you drive on inside a municipality.

This is the same for transit. County and city taxes pay for the bulk of the
service and fares and grants cover the rest.

Oh, and public transit taxes in Washington State are almost universally put in
front of the voters because the legislature won't let transit agencies impose
taxes on their own authority. Road and fuel taxes? Pfft, those are somehow
different and _they_ get imposed by the legislature with no vote. I _want_ the
legislature and our representatives to handle taxation and spending; that's
why we elect them. But this double standard of approval-required-for-transit-
but-not-for-roads is galling.

0 -
[http://www.wsdot.wa.gov/NR/rdonlyres/A72D0350-674E-4D50-8483...](http://www.wsdot.wa.gov/NR/rdonlyres/A72D0350-674E-4D50-8483-109EC26B8F3F/0/FY2016ROUTESTATEMENTS.pdf)

~~~
bensonn
At the turn of the century HOV lanes were rare (1 on I-5, 0 on 16) and Sound
Transit was almost non-existent (sure they were there but they just quietly
taxed us and nobody really saw them and no light rail around here. At the turn
of the century I didn't dread going anywhere near downtown or the airport. At
the turn of the century it took 30 minutes to go the 30 miles door to door
from Tacoma to Auburn. By 2010 it took 45 minutes to try and meet somebody
half way. That is why I quit meeting my friend to play tennis after work,
which is why I got fat. Thanks mass transit for making me fat.

Only tolls really pay directly for the roads- and now more and more tolls are
being charged, in addition to the other taxes and fees.

I agree we (not me) voted for $30 tabs, many times and never saw them. And yes
we (not me) voted for the new Sound Transit. Since we did pass the last one I
actually stand behind it, if we sold bonds based on the taxes we have to pay
them now.

"I want the legislature and our representatives to handle taxation and
spending; that's why we elect them." -Agree with you there!

I am perfectly fine having transit subsidized. The transit agencies love to
adverties what a bargain it is and many of the comments mentioned how much
they use the bus. My only point is transparency. If the true, unsubsidized
fare were charged would people still ride? Would it still seem like a good
deal? Would it still seem like the best plan?

I often don't care if it is left or right, red or blue- just if it works.
Seattle seems to be a shade of blue that doesn't work well, at least in
transportation. Something Seattle and King County are doing, or not doing, is
failing miserably and keeps getting worse. We keep giving the transit agencies
with more and more money and they keep delivering more and more congestion.
This is the commonly accepted relationship we have with them, the cycle will
only continue until something gives. I wouldn't be surprised if Seattle bans
cars soon, except for the rich and government employees of course.

~~~
CalRobert
"My only point is transparency. If the true, unsubsidized fare were charged
would people still ride? Would it still seem like a good deal? Would it still
seem like the best plan?"

Do you pay tolls for all the roads you use? Do you pay to park at the store?
Do you pay for other's care for their emphezama? Will you buy their flooded
house? Do you pay for the funerals of dead walkers and cyclists? Will you pay
for new habitat for the wildlife displaced by roads?

~~~
StudentStuff
Nope, Single Occupancy Assholes, who make up sub-30% of Seattle Commuters and
create nearly all the traffic are very entitled. They expect the rest of us
taxpayers to fully subsidize the roads, provide free parking at most public
buildings, parks and on most streets, and then have the gall to complain about
minor point of use fees!

Lets cut the bullshit and bill drivers directly for every mile of wear they
put on the road, and for the massive hidden (and unbilled) cost of car storage
on public streets and at public facilities. Given a fully transparent market,
single occupancy commuting would die a quick death!

Hell, even a minor $1 entrance fee into/out of downtown would shave SOV
traffic down 15% to 20%, despite not passing through much of the cost.

------
jlmorton
I don't want to take away from the good things that Seattle has done with
transit, but it's worth pointing out that Seattle is far and away the fastest
growing city in the US, with an astonishing 3.1% (21,000 people) between
2015-2016.

If ridership increased by 4.1% between 2015-2016, then population growth alone
may account for a significant chunk of that.

[https://www.seattle.gov/opcd/population-and-
demographics](https://www.seattle.gov/opcd/population-and-demographics)

[https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/data/seattle-
once-...](https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/data/seattle-once-again-
nations-fastest-growing-big-city-population-exceeds-700000/)

~~~
keepkalm
And some of the worst housing affordability. People who move out of the city
can't justify to drive and park in Seattle.

It would be near impossible to navigate Metro, SoundTransit, and surrounding
transit agencies without OneBusAway or Google Maps. Idk, SoundTranist also
tried a massive money grab on car tabs on inflated valuations. They are doing
just as much to undermine support for transit as anyone.

~~~
aaronbrethorst
Thanks, I appreciate the kind words about the utility of OneBusAway for you.
You may not know this, but the people who make OneBusAway for iOS and Android
are unpaid volunteers.

n.b. I'm the maintainer of OneBusAway for iOS.

~~~
CaptSpify
I did not know that, and I appreciate your efforts. It's one of the few apps
that I know fairly consistently works, even though it's an inherently chaotic
system that deals with estimation.

Is the data behind that available anywhere as an api or anything? I was trying
to find a way to parse out some stuff for a project at home, and access to the
times in say, json, would be helpful.

Thanks!

~~~
icebraining
[https://transitfeeds.com/](https://transitfeeds.com/)

~~~
aaronbrethorst
I haven't seen this before. Thanks for sharing!

------
paule89
Well. If people start to invest into public Infrastructure and Busses, Trams,
trains. The quality will increase and more people will use it. The same thing
with dedicated bike lanes. Not for every scenario. But it helps the people.
The low and middle class and that is the best we can do. Help those who don't
have the money.

~~~
selectodude
The irony is people who need better public transit are the ones more
virulently against bike lanes.

~~~
mulmen
Can you substantiate this claim?

~~~
mandelbrotwurst
I'm not the parent and I don't have any data, but I think he is saying that he
thinks people in lower income areas tend to not be supportive of efforts to
support bicycling and/or bicyclists.

Just based on my personal experience, I think there may be some correlation,
possibly due to the fact that bicycle commuters tend to be from higher income
brackets, and that lower-income folks often see efforts to support bicycling
as both a symptom and cause of gentrification that does not do anything to
help them personally as they are less likely to be bicyclists themselves.

Just my two cents.

~~~
tomjakubowski
> bicycle commuters tend to be from higher income brackets

In the United States, the income segment with the highest rate of bicycle
commuting (1.5%) is those individuals earning $10k/year or less [1]. Workers
from households earning under $35k/year are 10x more likely to bike to work
than workers from other households [2].

Of course, this doesn't directly imply that bicycle commuters tend to _not_ be
from higher income brackets, but if you examine the US household income
distribution [3], it seems probable; as of 2014, a third of US households have
an income below $35k/year. The Census Bureau provides some data tools which
one could certainly use to break down bicycle commuters by income category,
but their interface gives me trouble.

[1] [https://www.census.gov/newsroom/press-
releases/2014/cb14-86....](https://www.census.gov/newsroom/press-
releases/2014/cb14-86.html)

[2]
[http://bikeleague.org/sites/default/files/equity_report.pdf](http://bikeleague.org/sites/default/files/equity_report.pdf)

[3]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Household_income_in_the_United...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Household_income_in_the_United_States#Distribution_of_household_income_in_2014_according_to_US_Census_data)

------
piokuc
Transportation is a big and growing problem and this exceptionally interesting
HN discussion is a testimony to that. But, no mention of a potential to reduce
the problem by increasing the number of people working remotely from home and
eliminating part of the transportation demand. Any thoughts on this?

~~~
uberstuber
Tax breaks for companies that implement 4 day work weeks / off peak commute
times / WFH days?

If I ran a company I'd want my employees to have shorter commutes anyway. A
stressful drive in the morning can't be great for productivity.

------
paxunix
It could get even more people to ride the bus if they extended the idea of
dedicated lanes for buses farther into the suburbs and along major corridors
(like I-5, but they'd get crucified by all the car drivers if that were to
happen).

I absolutely hate my commute because on the very best of days (i.e. minimal
traffic, which is almost never), it's 1h20m long (were I to drive on that
exact same day and conditions instead, it would be 30 minutes--that's a steep
price to pay for me to prefer public transit). 10 years ago it was great--40
minutes max by bus, but commuting from point A to point B almost only ever
gets worse over time, never better. I'd love to take the bus all the time if
it was much more consistent--but it never will be.

------
akhilcacharya
I wonder how much this has to do with employers giving their employees ORCA
cards

------
loukrazy
For some commutes in Seattle the bus is _way_ faster than trying to drive out
of downtown. The bus tunnel is pretty fantastic.

~~~
vkou
That bus tunnel also makes trips on the LINK take way longer then they should.

~~~
lh7777
Which is one of the reasons why they're going to be kicking all of the buses
out of the tunnel as soon as 2019. Good for light rail, but I don't see how
3rd Ave won't become total chaos.

------
narrator
I think what Muni in SF has done with putting cameras and microphones
everywhere has kept the thug problem under control. I used to ride Muni a lot
before that and would regularly watch and overhear people graffiting, planning
some sort of gang violence, screaming in ecstacy while obviously extremely
high after refilling their opioid prescription at sf general, openly smoking
their crack rocks across from me, etc. That's why people don't ride public
transit.

~~~
DrScump
Both Muni and BART are also getting more crowded due to the new California
law[0] that exempts juveniles from fare evasion enforcement; they can
effectively ride anywhere for free, now.

[0] SB882 (Hertzberg) This one change costs BART alone $25 million per year
(Matier & Ross, SF Chronicle, May 8 2017, page C1)

------
Spooky23
That’s awesome. The bus authority in my area saw massive ridership changes
when they added BRT to one trunk route. It dramatically improved transfers and
has been a boon to them.

------
matt_the_bass
My city “solved” the bus traffic issue by reducing bus coverage during rush
hour. No wonder no one finds the bus in my area convenient.

------
Animats
Maybe the monorail plan will come back.[1]

[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seattle_Monorail_Project](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seattle_Monorail_Project)

~~~
curtis
I think it's unlikely, although I personally would like to see some sort of
elevated solution re-visited.

------
locusofself
Riding the bus in Seattle is usually a bad experience (olfactory, auditory,
etc). Hobos, wangsters, creepers, stinkers, etc.

But it costs ~$40 to park downtown for work day. How could anyone
afford/justify that? I had a parking pass that my company paid for for about
$250 a month for a while. The lot was crazy packed and was valet only (but not
in a nice way).

I work from home now, and we got an office in Lynnwood. Not as cool, but it
works for us. Parking was too expensive, bus far too time consuming..

~~~
mseidl
I used to Work in Seattle. I just moved to Belltown a few blocks from work.
Saved a lot of money on gas and commute time. Parking was a pain, but then
again my company offered a subsidized 90$/mo pass. My rent did go up a lot,
but when factoring in gas/time saved it was worth it to me.

But this was quite some time ago.

------
mschuster91
> They added bus bulbs on the side of the road to pick up passengers without
> blocking traffic.

Interesting. Here in Munich new bus stations are explicitly _not_ in bulb
form, because buses tend to pick up too much delay from morons ignoring the
bus while it blinks and blinks and blinks until finally someone has the sense
to let the bus merge into traffic.

On the other hand, the "blocking" way has its own downsides. I live on a
1-lane-per-direction road, directly next to a recently converted bus station -
and now I have angry honking whenever there's a load of school kids or
wheelchair-bound people, and morons trying to overtake the car on the other
direction's lane... so far no accident has happened but I'm waiting for it.

~~~
userbinator
_because buses tend to pick up too much delay from morons ignoring the bus
while it blinks and blinks and blinks until finally someone has the sense to
let the bus merge into traffic._

That would be easily solved by making buses always have the right of way ---
when it starts signaling, traffic behind it has to stop if safe to do so and
let it merge in.

~~~
brewdad
In Portland, they already do have right of way. Still drivers often don't
yield. Most experienced bus drivers learn to just play a game of chicken and
pull out anyway. Makes for some exciting conflicts.

------
mikeytown2
If the park and ride lots didn’t fill up the bus would be viable for our
household. We actually went from using the bus to not using it because of this
issue.

------
matty22
I live on the Eastside, so not sure that my experience qualifies as "Seattle",
but bus transit is so good here that I sold my car and my wife and I reduced
down to a single car household.

I bus commute to work 5 days a week and couldn't be happier. My bus is nearly
never late, my connections are short, the buses are clean and comfortable. I
have no regrets on selling my car.

------
ronnier
The problem in the Seattle area (including Kirkland and surrounding areas)
continues to be 1) Park and rides are completely full by 8:30 2) street
parking was stopped in many areas by making it 2 to 4 hours only 3) many
waiting areas have no cover -- so you'll stand in the rain waiting for a late
bus.

~~~
somethingsimple
> many waiting areas have no cover -- so you'll stand in the rain waiting for
> a late bus.

This is something I don't get about the Seattle area. It's like people here
are in complete denial about the fact that it rains for 9 months a year. It's
not just bus stops - my daughter says recess at school sucks most of the year
because the playground and other play areas are all uncovered. So all the kids
have to stay stuck in a very limited covered area where there's nothing for
them to do. Same thing with parks - no covered playgrounds or places where
people can sit and relax without getting wet.

------
baybal2
Does any US city have private run in-city public transport?

~~~
tomjakubowski
Denver does for two rail lines.
[https://www.bizjournals.com/denver/news/2017/06/07/rtd-
put-o...](https://www.bizjournals.com/denver/news/2017/06/07/rtd-put-on-
notice-by-contracyordenver-transit.html) (edit: not actually "in city", I
guess, since it's commuter rail)

The heavily urbanized San Gabriel Valley in the LA metro is serviced
by—amongst a few public transit agencies, including the county's system,
Metro—the privately operated Foothill Transit. Foothill also runs commuter bus
lines to/from downtown LA.

------
juancn
78000 passengers a day? Isn't that too low? I'm from Buenos Aires and buses
alone move 1.7M people each day.

------
leyth
The Seattle bus system is pretty good, they’re always improving. I know that a
lot of people won’t ride the bus because they complain about homeless people
sleeping in the back, it is an over exaggeration. Lately, I’ve noticed an
influx of tech bros who refused to ride the bus because it “smells bad.”

I’ve been using the Seattle public transit over 7 years to mostly commute to
downtown, it has been a good experience.

------
njarboe
Personal, on-demand, point-to-point, high-speed, low-cost, environmentally-
friendly, and quiet transportation seems to me what people want. This is what
we as a society should be working towards. Not making using a car so broken
that a train or a bus in dedicated lane is the better option.

I hope Elon Musk can get his tunnels with electric vehicles going and remove
most of the problems with our current transportation systems. By taking the
shortcut of making using a car a moral failing, instead of the negative
externalities of car use, we end up condemning a great tool that just needs
improvement to remove its current negative aspects.

~~~
PhasmaFelis
Mass transit will always be cheaper than individual transport, and we often
can't even get taxpayers to fund that. I love the idea of efficient, on-
demand, self-driving vehicles, but a world where _everyone_ has access to them
is an impossible utopia for the foreseeable future.

~~~
njarboe
When you don't have to pay a driver, I don't see why that is the case. A bus
costs around 1/2 to a million dollars. A very good used car is 2 grand.
Electric car motors are expected to last a million miles and the rest of the
car, excepting tires, brakes, and batteries, can be made to last that long
also. Electric cars are likely to be less expensive that ICE cars in the long
run.

Automatic vehicle systems today could easily run in a tunnel or other highly
controlled road today. Small and large vehicles (cars and buses) could both
use such a system. This would be a mass transit system that could work for
everyone.

~~~
avar
Because what you're primarily saving with public transport is not the cost of
the vehicles themselves, but all the infrastructure needed if people who would
otherwise take the bus all own cars.

Sure, if the 50 people on the bus all buy used beaters you'll probably come
out ahead, but once you start thinking about the real cost of the land in big
cities needed to park those 50 cars it gets expensive real fast, and that's
before factoring in extra load on the road system and other externalities.

~~~
njarboe
Yes, I agree. That's why a multi-level tunnel system with automatic vehicles
is needed if we would like to have our world get better instead of worse. Hope
we can try it and see if it works at least.

~~~
PhasmaFelis
Multi-level tunnel systems, cool as they might be, aren't exactly a major
improvement cost-wise.

