
Coffee shops look to oust 'laptop hobos'  - Irishsteve
http://money.msn.com/now/post--coffee-shops-look-to-oust-laptop-hobos?sharedfrom=scpshrjwlinkedin
======
enraged_camel
A lot of people don't understand that WiFi service at coffee shops is provided
as a _courtesy_ , and as a result they tend to take it for granted. I know
people who, after buying their first drink (the absolute cheapest one on the
menu) sit at a table for hours at a time and use the Internet. Fundamentally,
I think this behavior is unethical and I'm fully behind coffee shop owners who
take measures to discourage it.

The best one I've seen is the method where your receipt includes a WiFi code
that is good for two hours after activation. That is plenty of time to get
work done, and afterward if you want to continue working then you go buy
another drink.

~~~
toyg
Even better: have the code last longer depending on the amount you spend.
Buying a high-margin drink? Have 3 hours on the house! Grabbing the cheapest
option on the board? Sorry pal, it's 30 mins for you. There's a business model
there, I think.

(The only problem for me is that I _hate hate hate_ wifi portals. They all
suck.)

~~~
enraged_camel
That would be OK if most high-margin drinks weren't packed with sugar and all
kinds of other shit. Why punish people who want a simple Americano by forcing
them to get up every 30 minutes and make a new purchase? :)

edit: Of course, the appropriate response to this is that getting up every 30
minutes to walk around and stretch is good for health. Yes, I do debate with
myself in my head...

~~~
anotherevan
Buy four Americano's at a time, get two hours wi-fi and tell the barista to
give the three extra drinks to their next three customers. You get your wi-fi,
limit your caffeine intake, and help the shop generate goodwill with its
customers, which in turn generates goodwill of the shop towards you.

If you're gonna be a hobo, at least try and be classy about it.

~~~
fudged71
Ah, but the people who receive free drinks won't get WiFi! :)

------
k-mcgrady
This doesn't surprise me. I recently read a thread (could have been on HN but
I'm not positive) and I was surprised at the number of people that think it's
fine to spend a few dollars on a cup of coffee and then take up a seat and use
the free wifi for 8 hours. Most coffee shops (excluding the higher priced
places like Starbucks) rely on a high turnover of customers to make a decent
profit. There is quite a high markup on coffee but as it's usually so cheap
($1-3) they need to serve a lot of customers. In my experience coffee shops
also tend to be quite small and finding a seat is difficult. When I see a
place like this I usually go somewhere else. I can understand why they get
annoyed at 'laptop hobos'. If you're going to take over a seat in the coffee
shop for a day at least buy something every couple of hours.

~~~
cookingrobot
The obvious answer (to me) is for libraries to sell coffee.

------
shalmanese
A German Coffee shop is innovating with a new model where the coffee is free
but you are charged for the time you spend:
[http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/05/28/slow-time-cafe-
germ...](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/05/28/slow-time-cafe-
germany_n_3345531.html)

This seems like an interesting way to keep the incentives more aligned.

Personally, I wish there was a more socially acceptable way to just rent space
at a coffee shop. I don't drink caffeine and I often need to find a place to
crash for 2 hours which means either I buy a high calorie pastry/juice that I
don't really need to be eating or I feel like an asshole the entire time I'm
there. It'd be far easier for me if I could just drop $4 in a jar and have
that cover my time.

~~~
epsylon
What you need is a Bring Your Own Computer Internet café.

10 years ago, I hanged out a lot in internet cafés, and loved it. There was
definitely something cool about it: hanging out with tech-savvy people, using
beastly machines on powerful internet connections, exploring the exponentially
exploding internet, playing games, ... It was a very social experience, and I
befriended a few other regulars there.

I do miss the ambiance of these cafés, and I wish that laptops, better
internet connections (the days of 56k are long gone) and ubiquitous free WiFi
hadn't killed that kind of business.

There's potential for a revival of internet cafés, though. Good Wifi,
preinstalled docks for common laptops, smartly arranged space (to avoid
spilling coffee on your precious laptop because you accidentally pulled a
cable !) and a different pricing model, you could attract easily the horde of
Starbucks and McDonald's "laptop hobos"...

~~~
tomhschmidt
Yes! I totally agree! It doesn't even have to be intended as a coffee shop -
just like a coworking space where I can show up, plug my laptop in to a
monitor, keyboard, and mouse, sit down at a comfy office chair and desk, and
work for a few hours. Would gladly pay for that service.

~~~
redblacktree
Search for co-working spaces in your area. Most have an annual fee (I believe
the one closest to my house charges $500 for the year) and are exactly what
you described.

~~~
tomhschmidt
Really? I live in the Bay Area and the ones that I've seen have pretty poor
amenities. Even rather famous ones like Hacker Dojo look like just some cheap
tables and chairs thrown together.

~~~
redblacktree
I can't help you there. I'm in Indianapolis, and there are a number of nice
spaces. One of them is a bit grungy, but it's part of its charm.

------
jbail
Is this really a serious problem? Anecdotally, 9 out of 10 visits to a coffee
shop, I just get coffee and leave. 1 out of 10, I am meeting someone, usually
to go over some business. In the 21st century, this typically requires
Internet connectivity.

Not offering WiFi or putting time limits on it would make me feel unwelcome.
Feeling unwelcome will make me not want to patronize said coffee shop the
other 9 out of 10 times.

What's the secret sauce that makes Starbucks so successful? They made it a
comfy place to hang out...the "3rd place" between home and work where you can
go and feel welcomed. Schultz is always talking about it. Obviously, Starbucks
is one data point, but I think there's something to it.

~~~
showerst
'Serious' is a strong word but I have this problem all the time.

2 of my favorite coffee shops (Filter and Peregrine in DC) are really small
and constantly full of people working on laptops. I love the coffee but don't
take guests or coworkers there because there are never open tables to sit and
chat. I know other people who avoid them entirely because having sitting space
is more important to them than the coffee itself.

People who stay for more than, say, an hour or two hurt turnover which is
critical for smaller coffee shops that also serve food or snacks, whereas
places like SBux make most of their money on people getting a quick morning
fix, and can also afford bigger spaces.

I'd prefer if things bifurcated, big national chains that can afford the room
offer wifi, smaller local places kill it to keep turnover up. I can see how
it's a lose-lose for coffee shops having to choose one group or another. Some
places turn it off after, say, 3pm which is a nice compromise.

~~~
jseliger
One interesting tech solution I've seen at Argo Tea in NYC is the deployment
of Wi-Fi codes on receipts: each code lasts for about half an hour or an hour.

~~~
thejosh
That's actually a good solution.

Giving them codes that relate to the total cost of their receipt, so for
example 1 coffee = 30 minutes, 2 = 60 so that way when you have a group you
each get 30 minutes or something.

Now there is a good startup idea... ;-)

~~~
bsimpson
I've seen this done in many (unmemorable) places.

------
BudVVeezer
As a telecommuter, I recognize when I go work from a coffee shop that I am
using their resources. But that's why I 1) buy stuff while I'm there, and 2)
tell all of my friends what a great place it is.

If one of my local shops pulled this on me, they'd not only lose my business,
but that of friends when I tell them about the experience. Perhaps this isn't
a big concern (I'm not particularly important, after all). But if it happens
with enough customers, it could be bad for business in a more broad sense.

~~~
zalew
People that don't like being surrounded by laptops will take your and your
friends' place. No worries, cafes without wifi work just fine.

~~~
staunch
Exactly, catering to the the growing logizomechanophobic segment is so hot
right now.

~~~
m_ram
_logizomechanophobic_

Wow, what a word!

[http://medical-
dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/logizomechan...](http://medical-
dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/logizomechanophobia)

------
toyg
This is why I 1) only hang around coffee shops with big seating areas, 2) pick
the smallest table near a power plug, 3) try to buy something every two hours,
be it water, coffee, sandwiches or muffins, to "simulate" turnaround as much
as possible, and 4) evangelize for my local on G+, TripAdvisor etc.

I'm probably a bit over-sensitive because I come from a country (Italy) where
waiters and owners will basically tell you to sod off if you hang around a
table more than one hour... which is probably why most cafes there never
offered wifi in the first place.

~~~
snogglethorpe
> _I come from a country (Italy) where waiters and owners will basically tell
> you to sod off if you hang around a table more than one hour_

Of course, that would also be a perfectly reasonable solution. It has the big
advantage of being straightforward, directly addressing the actual problem
without inconveniencing non-campers), and letting the customer know what the
issue is, and it seems much more likely to work than any of these technical
tweaks... (after all, you can easily use a laptop without wifi in many cases,
or with a cellular modem, and some campers aren't using a computer at all)

Ideally they'd also apply such a policy thoughtfully, e.g., being more lax
when the cafe is uncrowded, and letting you stay around longer if you were
buying enough stuff. [After all, you're essentially renting space, and the
appropriate price shifts up and down with demand]

Around here they explicitly put up signs saying they may ask you to leave if
it's crowded and you've been there for a long time, but I've never, ever, seen
that policy actually applied (and some people, mainly students studying, sit
there for ages and ages nursing small coffee).

Personally, I'd also like it if they also gave one the option of
straightforwardly _renting_ space... sometimes I like to sit in a cafe, but
don't really feel like drinking or eating anything...

------
epoxyhockey
The Grove on Fillmore St in SF has a _goodbye to wifi_ sign near the entrance
that I just noticed a couple of weeks ago, which I thought was pretty
interesting. I, personally don't mind the wifi'ers at Starbucks or Panera, but
my main comment is that the seating plans of these shops are not setup for
solo workers. One visit to Starbucks had a slew of wifi workers sitting at
2-person tables. I couldn't help but think that the shop was a 1/2 occupancy
just due to the seating plan.

It's definitely an interesting problem. Everyone has laptops, and coffee shops
seemingly are not hurting for patrons anymore.

------
princess3000
Seems like there might be an opportunity for something in the middle ground
between neighborhood coffee shop and full-on coworking space.

~~~
Avshalom
Libraries.

~~~
superuser2
Silence + no food allows creates a _very_ different space from a cafe. It has
value also, but it's not remotely the same thing.

~~~
uxp
If you're near a University, check out their library. Most of the time they'll
have a cafe, guest wifi, and a reasonable amount of white noise for a library.

~~~
ben1040
Yep. I live a mile and a half away from a university and I use their library
for working on side projects. I've found it to be a great place for helping me
focus.

Years of schooling have programmed me to think that the library is where you
go to be serious about getting work done, and I'm often more effective there
than if I sit at my desk at home.

------
wybo
Not in defence of laptop hobos, but the following is bs:

> "For centuries cafes have been places where people go to meet, trade gossip,
> network and otherwise come together informally, and some coffee shops are
> trying to encourage that social interaction again by taking action against
> the laptop hobos."

Anyone who has done a bit of history (or can find WP) knows that coffee-houses
and pubs used to be places where people used to read, work, play games, and
hang out for hours on end, whole days or evenings; every evening. Why? Because
it saved money on not having to heat ones own living-room in winter...

Using a bit of electricity on top seems relatively minor in comparison...

(though a shift in the relative price of space and drinks/food likely explains
the current issues...)

------
ok_craig
Sounds like a great opportunity for someone to create a new coffee shop chain
specifically centered around the idea of seating people with laptops for a
long time. Actually I'm not sure why this hasn't happened yet.

~~~
haldujai
Because you won't make any money. If you have 20 * 2 seater tables you're
looking at:

$60-80 coffee per 4 hours - x * $40 for four hours of a barista(s) - employee
overhead - electricity - internet usage - business overhead - rent = < $0

Rent is the limiting factor in this model, you want to be in a high traffic
area to get those customers but not have to pay ridiculous rent and still have
a decently sized store. Not going to happen.

~~~
ok_craig
Aren't those issues accounted for by simply charging more?

~~~
haldujai
Then:

A) people will just go to the multitude of coffee houses that still offer
unlimited WiFi

And

B) you're no longer a coffee house, you're an Internet cafe / temporary office
space offering coffee. Big difference.

~~~
ok_craig
Internet cafes tend to be boring white boxes without food or drink, the walls
lined with five year old crumbling windows PCs.

It seems like there is a middle ground which has not been explored, which is
simply a more expensive coffee shop with more space, where you are
allowed/expected to stay for long periods of time. I would pay for that.

You can call that an internet cafe if you want, but it wouldn't really be like
any I've been to.

------
abraham_s
How about coffee shops offering to rent out a table for n hours for x dollars?
It might be weird but I would like a option to pay for the facilities without
having a coffee every two hours.

------
Ellipsis753
I honestly have no problem with this. If a shop feels the need to enforce
limits then that's fine and is up to them.

If I go to a shop and there are frequently no seats for whatever reason I will
stop going there. If I need wifi for something and a shop doesn't offer it
then I won't go there either. It's up to the coffee shop to decides how best
to balance this for themselves. There are plenty of other coffee shops and I
will go to the one that normally has space and has wifi and good coffee if at
all possible.

If I'm ever at a coffee shop too long then a worker there can ask me to leave.
I will happily pay my bill and leave. However I will likely never return to
that coffee shop. This is up to the shop, if they need the seat more than my
custom then I honestly have nothing against them and as I said, there are many
more shops. (I have never actually been asked to leave a coffee shop however.)

------
TheCapn
Such a weird topic to me. Wifi as a free service became popular as a way to
attract people to establishments but the side effect is they get leeches. So
at this point they want to reduce them, some taking steps far enough to remove
the wifi. But now if they need to remove the wifi to keep their customer's
flowing and happy why did they need it in the first place? Knee jerk reaction
to a fad? Maybe it helped them grow in the first place?

I think any service, free or paid needs some sort of regulation from those who
will take advantage of it. Having rules which state you need to be paying a
customer and limit your stay to 30 minutes or whatever per order is probably
the absolute maximum you require since its privately owned property. Having
the rule covers your ass when you need it but doesn't require you to enforce
it when traffic is slower.

~~~
coldtea
> _But now if they need to remove the wifi to keep their customer 's flowing
> and happy why did they need it in the first place?_

There's this concept of "moderation" and things going over some limit etc.

That they added something (free wi-fi) to lure customers, does not mean they
also want people taking it's use to an extreme (forgetting about the coffee,
etc).

Similarly, that I needed a friend and made friends with some guy doesn't mean
I would appreciate seeing him 24/7 around my place.

~~~
showerst
I think this might also be something technology could solve.

Hosted wifi networks always seem awful, If there was some way to super easily
enforce a bandwidth and per-device time limit to discourage squatters without
making the network impossible to use, that would be great.

------
marincounty
Start to insult customers; they will leave, and remember.

I used to buy crap at Costco. Since they changed their "100 percent
satisfaction guarantee policy", I don't buy much anymore. I don't even think I
will renew my card.

The worst thing a company can do is assume their customers are parasites.

------
ripter
It always seemed to me like leachers are something that shops should deal with
on a customer by customer basises. But I can understand why they want rules
from corporate. It can be very hard for a barista to tell someone to leave (or
even kick them out) but let another person stay.

I know several Starbucks where people will spend 8+ hours sitting there with
their laptop. There was even one guy that would be there from open to close
4-5 times a week! Some of these people would get agressive about which table
was "theirs" or which outlet they used. (one guy was from another country and
his power adaptor blocked the second outlet.)

Blocking the power outlets help, but a good MacBook will last 4-8 hours
anyway. I'd hate to see the free wifi disappear because of a few bad apples.

~~~
anotherevan
Bring your own power board and be a hero to all your fellow hobos. :-)

------
mindstab
Could almost make a case for a "tragedy of the commons" situation here. Common
resources of seats and wifi. Most people treat them reasonably using the seats
for social interaction and the internet for meeting resources perhaps, but
some people having no reason not to leech onto it and over use it then causing
the aforementioned problems ruining it forever one with blanket bans and plug
power slots.

As per usual moderation is probably the key. Around here lots of places give
out wifi for 2 hour per drink. At least they keep you buying if you are going
to sit and take up space and wifi. Seemed pretty fair to me. Most casual cases
and meetings are well with in 2 hours so more cases are covered and the hobos
get the boot or are forced to pay.

------
A__MJ
As someone who works remotely a lot - I hate working at my apartment, so I
usually coffee shop-hop when I'm getting things done. I like being around
people, and a lot of the times I'll meet up with a friend and cowork, catch
up, etc.

So, open question: What are good alternatives? (in SF) -The libraries are full
of actual hobos (i.e. they smell like piss) -I researched coworking spaces
awhile ago and most required an exorbitant subscription/startup/VC funding.
Wix was awesome but then they pivoted into something else. -Noisebridge is
great for side projects and hanging out but I don't bring my professional work
there.

Ideas?

~~~
bdcravens
I think you need to challenge the idea that remotely working means that
someone out there is supposed to accomodate you.

------
geekymartian
First, who reads msn.com ? Second, in 2010 starbucks in NY required you to
have a starbucks card to access wifi. That didn't work well and they gave wifi
free again, so stay cool-- they know what is good for their business.

~~~
FireBeyond
As an ex-Senior PM for MSN.com, well, lots of people. When I worked there a
couple of years ago, we were the fifth most visited website in the world,
averaging 7,100 articles read per second. But hey, I realize it's not hipster-
chic.

~~~
kalleboo
> we were the fifth most visited website in the world

Isn't that just because it was the default site in IE for Windows XP?

~~~
FireBeyond
That doesn't account for the 7,100 articles -read-, not the home page visits.

------
MWil
You can tell a good coffeeshop by the ambient temperature they maintain. If
you're cold, they want you to get it and go.

I'm lucky to have a coffeshop/arcade nearby. The owner wants you to stay, hang
out, play games, read some comics. Sometimes I've gotten 3 drinks and food
throughout the day. It's not a great study/work location especially when you
get distracted watching someone else play a new game on the projection screen
but the ample seating means no one walks in and goes "oh...well, guess I'm
getting it to go"

------
exhaze
Mishka's Coffee in Davis, CA has an interesting approach to this. They have a
small dedicated section at the front of the cafe that is reserved for [1] "the
original, intended way [of using a cafe]". You're only allowed to read a
newspaper or hang out and chat in this section.

[1]
[http://daviswiki.org/Mishka%27s_Cafe?action=Files&do=view&ta...](http://daviswiki.org/Mishka%27s_Cafe?action=Files&do=view&target=therule.jpg)

~~~
kroger
And what is the difference between spending x hours reading the news paper and
the same x hours working on a laptop?

~~~
noptic
There is none. If you sit arround for 3 hours with 1 cup of coffee your an
<insert rude stuff here> no matter what you are doing.

~~~
kroger
That's way banning laptops per se is silly.

~~~
noptic
True. Do not ban laptops. Kick idiots.

------
antitrust
That's a bummer. I like the ability to go hang out at a coffee shop on off
hours, do a little work and a little websurfing while I down a cache of
caffeine.

However, I have seen some of the true hobos who are using it as an office, and
taking up more than their share of space. It even happens at restaurants that
will let you order only a coffee.

We seem to have a lack of public spaces in the USA. At least, public spaces
that have wi-fi and power outlets which you don't have to rent by the hour.

------
mikeash
Am I the only person who just _asks_ these places if it's cool for me to hang
out with my computer for a few hours? Plenty of places welcome it.

------
darkarmani
All of the comments on the msn page, seem very self-righteous.

If only there was a way to monitor bandwidth per attached wifi device and
slowly limit it for devices attached for a very long time. Why can't they do
something like this using a $50 WRT54G and the Tomato firmware? Just turn the
QoS setting on and put everyone in a very low bandwidth class. You don't need
a perfect solution (like giving 50MB per coffee).

~~~
joezydeco
Then it becomes an arms war with people installing MAC-spoofing widgets on
their systems. People will always find a way to cheat the system.

~~~
darkarmani
I don't think the system collapses if 5% of the people cheat the system. The
problem is that 50% of the space is taking up by leachers. The enemy of the
good is this perfection you are looking for.

------
bane
I feel like I should probably buy a cup of something every half hour to an
hour when I sit there. Nothing irks me more than looking for a seat to drink
and surf a bit then tables full of people who don't even have a drink but are
just using it as a public free wifi office (lots and lots and lots of
salesmen).

Putting codes on receipts that die after a half hour or so is the best
possible solution to me.

------
mgraczyk
It's interesting to notice the attitudes of the individual shop owners and how
they appear to have changed over time. It used to be the case that coffee
shops wanted to attract the quiet techie types, clacking away at their laptops
and sipping on lattes while checking email, watching videos, working, building
the next facebook... whatever. It didn't matter, as long as the ambiance
reflected that progressive hopefulness that a quiet 20/30-something on a
laptop used to project.

"Used to project," being the key phrase there. It seems that based on the
attitudes of coffee shop owners, we're entering a post-internet era. Are
people finally starting to again realize (as they once did in the early 90s)
that being antisocial in public is simply not cool? I tend to think we've
evolved with understanding as a basic part of our subconscious. We see a
person engaged in antisocial behavior in a public places, and we tend to think
less of that person. It would seem that our innate beliefs are once again
rising to prominence.

------
sologoub
The one thing that still fascinates me is the thought that somehow lack of
wifi and electric outlets will drive people away. Sure, it might work for a
short while if there are suitable alternatives near by, but once those
alternatives follow suit, people that rely on coffee shops for a place to work
will simply resort to air cards/phone tethering.

A typical MacBook Pro will last you 6-7 hours with screen at low brightness.
Newer Airs do even better. Ditto for iPads, etc. Plus many of tablets/netbooks
come with a built-in LTE service.

A more sustainable solution would seem to be better equipped spaces. Someone
kept going off on people taking tables that would seat two-four others. While
the comments themselves illicit no sympathy from me (especially about spending
10x), there is a good point made that if we developed etiquete of providing
and using laptop-specific seating, it would ease some of the congestion. Just
a thought...

------
D9u
I've never been a coffee drinker, so I'd sometimes park where I can pick up a
signal, using my vehicle as a power source, but since I got a "4G" mobile
hotspot I no longer use free wifi and I have the option of smoking while in
the confines of my automobile as well as a change of scenery as the situation
permits.

~~~
anotherevan
You should check out Geek My Ride. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5kG-
Qprpt80](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5kG-Qprpt80)

He claims to have the fastest web server on the planet. It'll do about
160km/hour.

------
unsignedint
As for Starbucks, my local one (it's one of few bigger "reserve" store) had
this problem before they renovated.

When they renovated the store, they changed it so they have "bar" desk facing
the two sides of the store facing the window with plenty (pretty much every
seat) and also some in the very middle section of the seat.

What I have been observing is that people who need power for their laptop tend
one of those seat -- while some people do use laptop in other seats, they are
more transient.

Of course given this is all given there are enough space to do this type of
arrangement, but sometimes these approach of actually manipulating behavior
rather than being prohibitive is one approach those places can take.

------
mountaineer
Is it just me or are coffee shops turning up the music too? I'm having a hard
time finding a coffee shop where I can have a skype or phone call. Loud music
and/or noise is one way to discourage long-term telecommuters who need to stay
in touch.

------
bitwize
I'd be more understanding of this sort of thing at Starbucks if the Starbucks
locations near me weren't friendly to ACTUAL hobos. I've walked into SB and
been hit with a wall of piss reek on more than one occasion.

~~~
FireBeyond
Heaven forbid a business's policy to provide food and drink to the homeless
interferes with and limits your "understanding"/acceptance of their not
desiring you to spend the day using the Wifi whilst not spending money,
probably whilst claiming that you benefit the business somehow by "creating
atmosphere"...

------
pjbrunet
Newer laptops have 6+ hour batteries. Not having a power outlet won't deter
anyone in the future.

Also, if you have Clear or tethering you don't need WIFI to get online. I have
Clear and it's been fun to find new places to work. (I just wish Clear had
better coverage maps.) So why be a "hobo" at one location when you can work at
several locations?

As far as limited space, this is not really an issue unless you live in a big
city. If you're in NYC, you're elbow to elbow like sardines all day long
everywhere you go, is this really news to anyone? If you don't like it, move
somewhere less crowded.

------
dkrich
Fairly simple solution- try selling Gogo-style wifi to customers? That way
people who are using the wifi the most will be paying their share.
Counterargument: "I'd just go to a place that has free wifi." Exactly.

------
hekker
A simple solution to this problem would be to replace the seating in the
coffee shop with less comfortable ones.

A while ago I had to work from a coffee shop for one day and while the chair I
was sitting on was comfortable for 3 to 4 hours, my back and arms really
started to ache after that time. The next day I still felt it.

This would solve the problem: regular laptop hobo's will not use your shop
because it will not be comfortable to work there, while customers that are
there to socialize are there for a short amount of time anyway.

------
BWStearns
I work in an office where I frequently lose internet (thanks Comcast!) during
the middle of time sensitive projects, so I have definitely camped out for
several hours in a Starbucks while crashing on some issue or another. However,
given that I buy more than 1 coffee per hour, I don't see the damage. Also,
last time I had to crash land at the Starbucks I went to the restroom to find
my seat snagged by an actual hobo (title reminded me), so I went to the bar
that offered free wifi instead.

------
hatu
In Berlin there's St. Oberholz:
[http://www.sanktoberholz.de/](http://www.sanktoberholz.de/) which has really
embraced the people using it as an office. Feels like a very welcoming place
when you have to get some work done and you won't bother "normal" people since
everyone knows what the place is about. They even have added a better co-work
space with more office services like snail mail, scanner, printers, conference
rooms etc.

------
Zikes
Obviously there are two sides to this coin, and that calls for two solutions.
Some coffee shops can certainly adopt this and similar policies to cater to
customers that would prefer not to be around people tapping away on their
keyboards, while other coffee shops can become the new haven for those people.

I think it's a fair solution, and it reminds me of how some restaurants will
adopt policies to ban children from the premises for similar reasons.

------
ratsimihah
> Some shops say they've had enough. They're either laying down customer rules
> for Wi-Fi use or eliminating it at certain hours -- or even altogether --
> while blocking their wall outlets.

Portable hotspot all-day batteries (e.g: Macbook Air's) are two examples of
bypassing such restrictions. Forbidding the use of laptops sounds more
convincing. But that should be enough to trigger some sort of segregation
anyway. Not a slick move.

------
boxysean
A good non-technical solution to this problem is an intentionally
slow/standard Internet connection, such as at my cafe of choice.

For me, it is frustrating to be at this cafe at peak laptop hours and I think
it causes people to churn in and out. So, I try to only use my laptop there
when there are fewer laptop users at the cafe. I think this is a good
psychological effect for the cafe to impart on its customers!

------
adamconroy
Not dissimilar to the old days where chess player hobos took up all the space.
Hang around for hours, buy one coffee, drag the image down.

------
hgcheah
IMHO this is one of the many signs that soon there will be a new kind of
coffee shop that emphasizes more on the social space rather than on coffee.

What people like us are looking for is not a cup of freshly-brewed black
coffee (although that definitely adds to it) but a social space with stable &
fast internet. Something that is a crossover of a coffee shop and an open
workspace.

------
makhanko
Why hasn't anybody figured out to put a reasonable time limit on each device
Mac address? 1 hour since you first log in should be enough to satisfy 90% of
customers and discourage the 10% hogging seats. Its like saying - you are
limited to 5 refills and being able to enforce it discretely. Who would object
to that other than those taking advantage?

~~~
unsignedint
I think the reason is because that really didn't work for some reason.
Starbucks experimented that idea for a while. (I think it was something like 3
hours for buying a something using registered card, and that then they decided
to open it up...)

My personal opinion about MAC address filtering though, if they become the
norm, everyone will start using a piece of software that changes MAC address
periodically... (As it's already trivial to change your MAC address...)

------
ck425
Coffee shops have traditionally also been places to read or write, why is
using a laptop that different? For those who have complained about laptoppers
taking up two person seats a) Most cafes I've been to have had few one person
seats and b) most laptops with a coffee take up the space of a two person
table.

------
WalterSear
In my experience, most coffee shops don't really have that much to offer if
they take away the opportunity to sit somewhere pleasant and work.

Coffee shops that actually serve good coffee tend to drive away people who
want to sit quietly with their computers - they have too much business.

~~~
dman
Noise cancelling headphones make this situation more nuanced.

------
nickpinkston
Visit San Francisco's 'Coffee Bar' in the Mission to see a place the eeks out
every drop of profit with many kinds of seating and various rules over time
for some areas. Always packed and people learn the rules quickly. Lots a good
nudging going on.

------
vickytnz
As someone who occasionally does spend a few hours in a cafe writing (I'm
doing my PhD and it stops me going mad), what's the fair payoff? Sit at a
small table and buy a decent coffee (i.e. a latte rather than a cheap filter
coffee) every two hours?

------
beachstartup
anecdata:

i can't remember the last time i sat in a coffee shop just to chat for 20
minutes. i am in, and out, because EVERY single one is filled with laptop
'workers'. even the $15 exotic coffee place that looks like a meth lab is
filled with hipsters on their laptops.

i live in santa monica, this is definitely a recent phenomenon - i used to be
able to walk into a bean or bux and grab a table for a few minutes, like... 3
years ago

------
daniel-cussen
From a business point of view, this is so bad that coffee shops should not
only not have Wifi altogether, but _have jammers._

------
tommaxwell
At least for me, no wifi = no business from me for the coffee shop.

------
thufry
WiFi is a decreasingly relevant weapon as more people have more devices with
faster 4G connectivity. They'll need to start outright bans.

~~~
vinceguidry
I've noticed that there are two types of laptoppers that frequent coffee
shops, the "well-heeled" and the "hobos". The former are social, interesting,
always buy drinks/food. They may stay for a long time, but they typically add
to the atmosphere rather than detract from it. The only thing that really bugs
them is when the Internet is spotty or really slow.

Then there's the other sort, the "hobos." They bring a ton of crap, (I saw one
guy haul a fricken printer into a Starbucks) it's even chances on whether
they'll order something or not, get angry at the drop of a hat, and you get
the distinct feeling like they don't have / can't afford Internet at home.

The thing about the latter is, they tend to have older laptops whose batteries
can't hold a charge. Guaranteed they won't have 4G devices. So removing the
power outlets is probably the easiest and best solution to the problem. You'll
keep the good sort from being able to stay all day, but if the problem is
really that bad, the well-heeled wouldn't want to stay anyway due to the
atmosphere being created by the hobos.

------
amerika
Free wi-fi? Free power? SOCIALISM!

