
How to Be Helpful Online - ingve
https://nedbatchelder.com//blog/202009/how_to_be_helpful_online.html
======
non-entity
I've recently been reading over certain forums that happening to be basically
the only community support option for a niche and honestly I'm not sure I'd
care to waste my time posting there.

In one case a user wanted to do something a bit unorthodox, but not entirely
crazy and was struggling to figure out a way to architect it. One of the first
replies? A more experienced member making a sarcastic, snide paragraph on why
the askers initial architecture was not viable. Thats it, no real info as to
why _(except that it was over complicated andcontrived)_ , no guidance on a
better option. There also tends to be a number of "RTFM" type comments when I
know damn well the official documentation is bad. Its not uncommon to find
broken links, links to obsolete, incompatible versions, poor discoverability
etc. In other places, I've had people call my an idiot for wasting my time
trying to do something because it was "too hard".

It's a different discussion, but I also get the feeling there a number of
communities that don't really care for hobbyists or hackers in general.

~~~
ketzo
I think it’s very common to think “if I had to RTFM, then so do you!” It’s
kind of depressingly pervasive.

~~~
rgoulter
I can see at least a couple of unpleasant interactions: On one end of things,
people who want help but then get harsh/unhelpful replies like that. On the
other end of the scale, if you have the capability to help, but are faced with
people who are too lazy to even listen to your answers. -- It's an asymmetry
with some poor incentives.

I think it'd be ideal if everyone who answered questions was polite,
respectful and helpful all the time. I think it'd be nice if people who asked
questions also did so in a polite, respectful and helpful way.

Somewhat exasperating the asker's position is that.. often if they're
conscientious enough to do the legwork in order to ask a good question,
they're more likely to find the answer.

Whereas someone who is entitled and doesn't know enough about the domain is
more likely to be asking bad questions.

------
mjw1007
« Answer the question first ».

There are so so many interactions that would go better if people would only do
that.

Yes, you may well be able to guess that the asker is taking the wrong
approach, and if they only told you what they were really trying to achieve
you might be able to tell them what your preferred way of doing that is. But
they haven't asked you about that.

If I ask "about how much would it cost to build the hull of an oil tanker out
of titanium?", there's no need to ask me why I think I want to do such a daft
thing, or tell me about all the manufacturing problems it would doubtless
involve. Once I hear about the cost I'm going to give up on the idea anyway.

~~~
nicbou
On the other hand, you might be facing an XY problem

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XY_problem](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XY_problem)

Sometimes it's better to question a person's motives than to hand them a
shotgun to shoot themselves in the foot with.

~~~
mjw1007
You very likely are facing an XY problem.

It's usually still best to start by answering the question actually asked, and
let the asker carry on from there.

Very often the answer to the question is "there's no way to do that", or
"you'd have to build a whole Z by hand first", and the questioner will then
back away from Y on their own.

~~~
Kalium
When responding with an XY problem with the answer up front, it's always worth
bearing in mind that there's a very good chance that whatever you say after
that will be blathering into the void. The consequences of this, especially if
on StackOverflow or similar, can be hard to foresee. This is perhaps something
to be cautious of one-size-fits-all approaches to, especially if the answer
could be dangerous in the wrong hands.

The universality of `chmod 777` among people with no understanding of UNIX
file permissions as a tool to solve all their problems is a great example.

~~~
jbay808
On Stackoverflow, keep in mind that any other users with similar questions may
have them closed as duplicates and redirected to the one you're answering, and
even if _this_ user has an XY problem, _they_ might not, so you should answer
the question first.

~~~
Kalium
You're absolutely right! There are potentially a great many readers with
exactly the same question, and any response should bear that in mind.

At the same time, Stackoverflow and similar public fora are doubly dangerous
for the issue I've described. Instead of the possibility of one person
mishandling information they're not equipped to contextualize, you have
potentially tens of thousands who will stop reading once they get the answer
you have helpfully provided first.

Again, you're completely correct. Any response should bear in mind the
possibly sizable audience. I think it might be the case that there could be
scenarios where answering the question as asked first is actually the least
helpful thing one could do for this audience. I have personally fallen into
this trap, reading the first few sentences of something helpful and getting
the dangerous information I was looking for, coming back for the rest only
when it blew up in my face.

~~~
jbay808
(I guess it's okay to answer the question last, too, as long as it gets
answered).

------
II2II
The biggest issue, in my opinion, is described by the author as "third rails".
I have stopped asking questions online because of it, and tend to avoid forums
while searching for answers because of it.

The problem is that the people answering to the effect of, "you should do this
instead," seem to believe that the person asking the question is completely
ignorant of the issues involved. This is not necessarily the case. Expecting
the asker to justify why they want to use a particular approach not only
discourages the asking, but it distracts from the question. Making matters
worse, the people offering these opinions rarely answer the question anyhow.

~~~
mdifrgechd
I have found this a problem in real life too - people often assume that when
you are asking for help you are asking for them to become a strategic partner
that is going to shape your overall approach to the problem.

For example, getting someone at work with some free time to pitch in on a
minor presentation aspect of a major project, where decisions have been made
over a long period of consultation and trial and error, I have been told all
sorts of things about "it would be better if we did this..."

I guess people are trying to be helpful, but cynically I think it also comes
from overestimating their importance and assuming because you asked for help
it must be at a project steering level and not just to get through a minor
bind.

~~~
gonzo41
Think about it this way. They know something that you don't and you're in a
position asking them for help. Engaging them as a partner in your solution
creates buy in from them. And really they are actually a partner in your
solution now. Their extra information, thoughts and ideas, may all be useless
but letting them say that is the cost of not having to RTFM for yourself.

------
MaxBarraclough
A fine complement to ESR's classic essay on netiquette, _How To Ask Questions
The Smart Way_.

[http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-
questions.html](http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html)

Not that ESR has outgrown straight-up flaming, mind:
[http://esr.ibiblio.org/?p=4650](http://esr.ibiblio.org/?p=4650)

~~~
chillwaves
Really wish I hadn't followed your link, so I can see them post gems like
this:

> >There is no communist invasion force openly posturing to invade and occupy
> the United States.

> No. Instead we have a violent Communist insurgency within our borders. They
> are determined, murderous totalitarians who will shoot you for wearing a
> MAGA hat. And it is time to end them.

[http://esr.ibiblio.org/?p=8752#comment-2450425](http://esr.ibiblio.org/?p=8752#comment-2450425)

Hard pass on that shit.

~~~
ses1984
Wtf.

~~~
some_furry
ESR is a toxic person who attracts other toxic people.

------
nicbou
That website was really pleasant to read on. It's a simple, straightforward
design.

However, the article doesn't tackle the main difficulty I have with being
helpful: laziness.

I really struggle to help people when typing their question in Google verbatim
would lead to an excellent answer, especially so when I am the author of that
answer.

Another common one is questions that should be answered with a quick call to
customer service.

~~~
mixmastamyk
Reply with an URL, if you've already written it or have it handy.

~~~
nicbou
That's what I usually do. I have them memorised by now. It's just frustrating
to put so much effort towards documenting something, and have someone casually
expect you to type words into a search box for them.

This extends to communities where the answer has already been provided several
times.

~~~
mixmastamyk
We know it happens, and will unfortunately continue to. Total noobs often
don't even know where they are. However, I've come to the conclusion that it
takes more energy on the expert's part to complain, rather than simply paste
the URL.

I suppose the only thing that would be less effort would be to delete such
questions. Perhaps a "post deleted for lack of effort (+ FAQ URL)", button.
Would be highly efficient, but feels rather stern to me.

------
lsiebert
This is good advice. I've been helping my partner learn javascript (she's
smart and talented but hasn't learned programming), and the other thing I'd
add is that a lot of the time her questions are about how you would use a
language feature, and why you would use it, and that teaching her has helped
me learn and think about stuff that I took for granted. I think more people
should teach/tutor/help others, because it's honestly made me a better more
thoughtful and less dogmatic programmer.

~~~
mathw
When I started doing instructor training for aikido classes and started being
out on the mat as an assistant, answering questions, helping people correct
things they hadn't realised weren't working like they should, I found to my
great surprise that my own aikido became better.

I mentioned this to the lead instructor on the class I was helping with and he
nodded and said that he was always told "to teach is to learn twice". He is
overly fond of little sayings like that, but it is true.

I am also aware that I became a better programmer in some aspects by coaching
junior colleagues. Partly because you have to translate and explain what's in
your head in a form that somebody else can understand - which is actually the
same as the effect I observed at aikido.

I also think it can help us be nicer to people who know less than ourselves,
because we see more often the reminder that people can in fact learn things,
and also people will ask questions which push the limits of our own knowledge,
or we just don't know the answer, and it's okay to realise that you don't know
and to admit it.

~~~
rrauenza
I've also helped teach Aikido ... mostly to kids.

Having to step out of yourself and break it down is a great learning
experience.

------
svat
This is good advice. I've seen the opposite of every one of these points play
out again and again, across different websites and online communities. I
recently wrote an answer on one of the Stack Exchange (meta-) sites, on why
this happens:
[https://tex.meta.stackexchange.com/a/8472/48](https://tex.meta.stackexchange.com/a/8472/48)
(The short version is that the experts/regulars see so many questions that
they start to become conscious of the "quality" of each new question, which
leads to annoyance for all people involved.)

~~~
ShorsHammer
It probably should mandatory reading for Stack Exchange users, it's an
excellent article. Certainly resonated a lot, both with things I've personally
done wrong and have seen happen repeatedly.

The "No Third Rails" section just screams SE. So many times I've found a
question that is exactly what I am asking only for the responses/comments to
be filled with "Don't do that, do this instead" as though there's not a single
person on the planet who has different usecases or needs than the __current
paradigm__. The whole question then gets derailed and ends up useless yet
still at the top of search results.

~~~
mathw
One way you can get rep on SE is to find those questions and actually answer
them. People tend to appreciate it, assuming they notice amidst the mess.

~~~
ShorsHammer
That's simply not possible for the vast majority coming across these
questions.

------
manaskarekar
Good advice!

An aside, for beginner python programmers, here is a very nice talk from Ned
(among many others from him).

Ned Batchelder - Facts and Myths about Python names and values - PyCon 2015:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_AEJHKGk9ns](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_AEJHKGk9ns)

------
jblakey
I really liked the "answer yes" point. It keeps the person needing help going
in the right direction instead of stopping them cold.

------
randopassingby
Tip: if you want to ask a question and get a satisfactory answer on sites
like, say, MathStackExchange, avoid the gate-keepers. They are not there to
answer questions in good faith, much less learn anything. They are there to be
a part of tight-knit community and, well, keep the gates :) They usually waste
your time picking nits, idly invoking some site rules(for example, removing
"thanks" from your OP) and ignoring your main point, even if they know what
you're asking about. Especially so, if they know (or can sense) you're a
beginner in the subject where they keep the gates. Avoid asking questions
about famous (but elementary) topics which tend to attract the gate-keepers.
For example, likelihood of you getting a good answer(other than sneers) when
asking questions about, say, Birthday problem or Monty Hall problem
(elementary probability) or convergence of some super famous series
(elementary analysis) is very low. Oftentimes, I see people get jumped if they
post wrong solutions to their (elementary) homework in the hopes of
understanding why the answer in their textbook is different from theirs and
how the authors came to that answer. That happens because gate-keepers (a)
feel their authoritah is being challenged (b) never bother/ed to learn
anything in depth anyway(often, they have only a surface level understanding
of mostly classic (elementary) results). Ask questions sourced from more
obscure(less famous) books which attracts more knowledgable folk as these
questions tend to be left alone by gate-keeper (high school mentality)
crowd(who believe correct answers are more important than the whys).

------
dkdk8283
A counter subject: how to ask for help online? Asking a well informed question
will typically solicit higher quality answers.

Folks who sit back and shout RTFM are those who are burned out from people
wanting them to do the work for them. If you’re trying to accomplish something
you need to show some effort, too.

~~~
Cthulhu_
A common saying is "the best way to get the right answer is not by asking a
question, but by giving the wrong answer".

Put the work in; read the docs, write a POC, show the people you're asking
what you tried yourself and where you're going wrong. Prove that you
understand the problem you're solving. And don't ask for people to do the work
for you; in most cases, you're talking to volunteers who are looking for a
distraction during their day job (some exceptions there; some projects will
have dedicated support personnel but honestly those are pretty rare for some
reason).

------
zoom6628
This article is good advice to anybody doing consulting work in tech or other
fields. It lasts out basically how as an expert in something one should
interact with those who (perhaps) know less. From my own decades of experience
I can say that this advice works.

------
herman_toothrot
If anyone knows how, it's this guy. I've seen him on freenode's pound python
for years offering friendly help. I won't list all his contributions to the
community here but he has made many.

thanks ned.

~~~
stan_rogers
Prior to his Django/Python adventure, Ned was with Iris/Lotus/IBM working with
the Notes and Domino platform. It's hard to tell now, what with IBM first
buggering up the system and then nuking all of history with the sale of Notes
and Domino to HCL, but that was probably the best tech hippie love-in
environment ever. Not only was the documentation ridiculously friendly, the
peer-to-peer dev community would often half-build your app for you if you
seemed lost or headed in the wrong direction, and it wasn't at all uncommon
for the platform developers to be in there neck-deep either dealing with
unexpected behaviour (edge cases testing could never have caught) or
explaining why a different approach might be better for performance or
security reasons. Every dev community should be like that one was at its best.

------
ayush--s
nedbat was very respectful when I once asked a rather stupid question on
#python (I was a noob back then). I am very grateful for his replies that day
because it led me to go deeper into python.

