
Geeky Stats About Magic Mushrooms - sganesh
http://motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2011/06/magic-mushrooms-safe-still-illegal
======
zyb09
Hope not to sound like a extreme liberal, but a lot of the highly illegal hard
drugs, aren't nearly as hazardous or addicting as they made out to be and can
have positive effects - IF used right. That includes psilocybin, MDMA, THC,
DMT, LSD and whatnot. Others are clearly toxic and very unhealthy, like crack
or meth. It's all matter of being well informed about the effect and right use
of the drug, as well as a having clean products. The one thing that makes them
dangerous is the potential of miss use is very high.

~~~
Wingman4l7
I might remove MDMA from that list -- the head researcher at Johns Hopkins for
this study was interviewed about a similar 2006 study he did; it mentions that
studies at John Hopkins have shown the potential for brain damage from MDMA
("certain nerve cells", anyway).
[http://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/Press_releases/2006/Griffiths...](http://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/Press_releases/2006/GriffithspsilocybinQ)

~~~
rdl
MDMA is much more potentially dangerous than those other drugs, especially in
an acute way. The "safety factor" (ratio between dangerous dose to useful
dose) is huge for THC, LSD, mushrooms, DMT, K, etc., and much smaller for
MDMA, Meth, K, opiates, coke.

There are a few (DOB?) which have safety factors around 2-4x, which is really
unsafe.

erowid.org is probably a much better source of info on this topic than hacker
news, though.

~~~
MichaelGG
According to Wikipedia, morphine has a therapeutic index of 70:1, and even
cocaine is 15:1.

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Therapeutic_index>

------
briggsbio
There's a saying in drug development, that resonates in the context of this
article: "the only difference between a drug and a poison... is the dose."

Psilocybin, marijuana, and LSD should be decriminalized and approved for
medicinal use across the US. Control, quality, and safety would be much
improved over the recreational and black market dealings we are left with
today--thus, invalidating much of the "war on drugs" and taking a huge cost
off the taxpayer and turning it into much needed revenue. Law enforcement
would then be freed of significant resources to focus on the more insidious
drugs (crack/heroin/meth).

~~~
mparr4
The LD50 (lethal dose for 50% of the population) for psilocybin cubensis being
consumed by a 150lbs person is 3015g (over 6 lbs!). A "high" dose is anything
over an eighth of an ounce (~3.5 grams). That's quite a large difference
between drug and poision!

Link:
[http://www.erowid.org/plants/mushrooms/mushrooms_chemistry.s...](http://www.erowid.org/plants/mushrooms/mushrooms_chemistry.shtml)

------
powertower
You can purchase mushroom spores (in syringes) legally, get some simple grow
medium, pack it in glass cans, sterilize that in oven, inject the medium with
spores, and grow those mushrooms in a converted fish tank (they needs
humidity). Takes about 2 weeks.

Spores do not contain psilocybin.

Here is one seller: <http://www.thehawkseye.com/> that I remember.

~~~
woodall
Highly illegal once grown! Had a friend's pet dealer get life, but that was
for a couple pounds; he sold them at festivals. [US]

*by pet, I mean animals

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lyudmil
The sample seems a bit odd. Reading the comments it seems that a
disproportionate percentage of the subjects were into meditation (a number of
them report "increasing meditation"). I haven't read the study but it seems to
me they'd have a hard time publishing their conclusions as they stand now.

I'm particularly skeptical of medical research. An ex-girlfriend was a student
at Harvard Medical School and worked in three different labs on drug
development. Two of the three studies all the labs published in a year
contained data that was either pruned or simply misreported to exaggerate the
effect of the drug. I know that's anecdotal evidence, but there's a lot of
grant money floating around in medical research and all the incentives are
skewed towards positive results, which often leads to bad science. I fear this
may be yet another example (speculating, admittedly).

~~~
Alex3917
"Reading the comments it seems that a disproportionate percentage of the
subjects were into meditation (a number of them report 'increasing
meditation')."

I haven't read this study yet, but I know that Johns Hopkins is doing another
study where one of the groups actually takes meditation lessons for six months
before taking the drug. These studies are mostly meant to validate the
methodology and to demonstrate that they can be used safely in a well chosen
population when done under professional supervision. It's not really meant to
accurately measure what percentage of the population at large would be able to
safely achieve ego death and/or have a primary religious experience.

Also, I agree with you that medical studies are generally sketchy, but these
aren't medical studies. These studies might eventually be used by a drug
company in convincing the FDA to grant a new drug investigation permit, but
probably not for at least another 5 - 10 years.

------
mparr4
Is anyone else not eager to see these legalized? I'm very interested in
psychedelics--and an occasional user--but I've seen what can happen when
someone who shouldn't be taking them has a bad trip.

Sometimes, it's not even a matter of preparation. A friend and I decided that
we wanted to experience a psychedelic. We spent the year prior to our
experience reading trip reports and literature, listening to lectures, etc.
and had seemingly done everything within reason to prepare. Yet when the
moment came, my friend fought it with every ounce of his being and is still
recovering from the anxiety this experience caused nearly two years ago.

The fact is, psychedelics are _NOT_ for everybody. To get the positive effects
this study reports requires a good deal of preparation, a proper set and
setting, and a trusted sitter who can help right the ship if anxiety starts to
creep in. Even then, there are those among us--like my friend--who are unable
to let go of control and surrender themselves to the experience.

Certainly one can make the argument that legalization/regulation could provide
greater controls over who swallows the pill and who doesn't, but I'm not sure
that is true. On the other hand, it is unfortunate that something that can be
so beneficial to an individual can at the same time be so destructive
(referring to the legal consequences this time). But, the way it stands now,
someone who is serious about pursuing this experience can grow the mushrooms
themselves for relatively little cost and at relatively little risk (provided
they don't sell to others).

The current situation (with perhaps some softer penalties against possession)
of limited medical research and legally available spores seems to me
satisfactory. Is it ideal? No, certainly not. But is it optimal, given the
reality of politics, law, and our attitude towards "drugs"? Perhaps.

~~~
VMG
> Sometimes, it's not even a matter of preparation. A friend and I decided
> that we wanted to experience a psychedelic. We spent the year prior to our
> experience reading trip reports and literature, listening to lectures, etc.
> and had seemingly done everything within reason to prepare.

I'd say you overdid it.

> The fact is, psychedelics are NOT for everybody.

Neither is alcohol. But if you are over 18, this should not be for the
government to decide.

~~~
mparr4
>I'd say you overdid it.

That is certainly possible. I've often thought that was true for my friend
(who would read worst case scenario trip reports so he could know what he was
"dealing with"). The year of preparation wasn't intentional actually, we were
just unable to get our hands on any and weren't in a position (living on
campus) to be growing ourselves.

>if you are over 18, this should not be for the government to decide.

In an ideal world, I would agree with this. But I think the reality of the
situation is that, unless it accompanied some broader systemic change, if
psychedelics alone (or just mushrooms) were legalized and nothing else
changed, they would be immediately abused and the media would cover
sensational stories of people hurting themselves, driving under the influence,
freaking out, etc. Take salvia as an example.

Again, I agree with you in principle. I just think pragmatically it's not that
simple. Perhaps legalization _would_ be better, perhaps not.

------
stef25
About the selection protocol - it sounds like at least some of the
participants in the study were in to yoga before the experiment. Those kinds
of people usually already have a spiritual streak or will at least be more
open to it.

It would be interesting to see this experiment repeated with more "mainstream"
subjects or something like 30 Wall St bankers.

~~~
pyrhho
Apparently Herman Kahn spent his LSD trip finding the best way to bomb China.
So there might be something to be said for the theory that it "intensifies"
your existing personality/interests.

------
hopkins007
I was actually a participant in a follow up study that I read about on Hacker
News about a year and a half ago. Thanks to whoever posted it I haven't been
able to find the HN post since then.

Just to confirm what Alex3917 said, they did ask us to follow a meditation
program before the first of either 2 or 3 sessions(I ended up with 3).

I don't know all of their selection criteria, but for the study I was in they
were looking for people with existing "spiritual practices" and little or no
previous psychedelic experiences.

------
guard-of-terra
I wonder why won't some starving poor tiny pacific island legalize [some]
drugs. They could probably make good money from drug tourism.

~~~
mcdowall
They have, I went to the Gili Islands 2 years ago, no cars and they advertise
legal mushroom shakes, also amazing island for diving (not in conjunction
however!)

Example <http://www.flickr.com/photos/sgoralnick/2625980738/>

~~~
maqr
That picture looked really appealing until I found some context:
<http://wikitravel.org/en/Gili_Islands#Stay_safe>

~~~
gwern
Well, it does say it's just the locals who get busted; executing tourists
would be bad for business.

------
quinndupont
Seems like there has been renewed interest in psychedelics in the geek
community. I'd recommend that everyone read Markoff's "What the Dormouse Said"
for the history of geeks and drugs.

~~~
Alex3917
The book is vaguely interesting, but truth in advertising is that it's pretty
dry and only ten or twenty pages out of the entire book are about drugs.

------
trucious
A couple of links containing stuff every psychonaut should know:

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Set_and_setting>

<http://deoxy.org/poru.htm>

<http://deoxy.org/pdfa/kidz.htm>

------
themgt
If psilocybin was unknown and a pharmaceutical company discovered it along
with the "appropriate" dose and published this study, their stock would be
worth approximately the entire western world's GDP tomorrow

Except... it wouldn't because these people only required 4 doses, each a month
apart, and then had better results 14 months later than every "take daily for
life" psych drug on the market today

~~~
mannicken
It's not that easy :) The "take daily for life" pills work always; you can
have the crappiest day of life and take a pill and you're happy. That's why
they're addictive, even stuff like cigarettes or alcohol -- always work,
always calm you down, bad trip impossible.

Psychedelics require preparation, and active cooperation on the patients side.
If you think you can be depressed and suicidal and eat a mushroom and have it
all gone you are in for a world of bad trip, that will have consequences after
the bad trip: insanity, panic attacks, anxiety, and symptoms of PTSD.
Basically, psychedelics aren't an immediate fix, they require preparation
before and taking actions after the trip.

Psychonautics requires learning; experienced and knowledgeable people can
guide their mind to benefit greatly from a bad trip, but most people are not
be able to handle it, and delve even deeper into depression or whatever. Some
killed themselves afterwards or during. Some have peed their pants while
crying and shaking throughout the trip but came out better. Some had
absolutely wonderful experiences with psychedelics.

From personal experience, your set and setting will determine whether you
discover the wonders of the universe or hallucinate a penis staring at your
face, thinking you are being raped for 8 hours. I am not joking.

People like immediate fixes, hence why psychedelic therapy doesn't get much
attention.

~~~
flatline
> "take daily for life" pills work always

Sadly, the immediate fixes are not as sure fire as they are made to sound.
Most people I've known on medications for depression and anxiety are juggling
prescriptions and dosages to retain the benefits of the drugs. While SSRIs may
not give you a "bad trip", they can have paradoxical effects as well as a host
of terrible side effects, and withdrawal can be long and difficult.
Benzodiazepenes are still widely prescribed and tolerance and addiction build
rapidly in most people. For many people these work great but for many they do
not, or never completely.

------
omarchowdhury
The (positive) mushroom experience is like being in love with _everything_.

~~~
hyperbovine
Agreed. I only tried them once, in Amsterdam, and the experience was so great
that I have never done them a second time. It could never measure up.

