
Students: You Are Probably Not Mark Zuckerberg, So Stay In School - cwan
http://techcrunch.com/2010/09/25/students-stay-in-school/
======
jasonkester
I graduated from high school in 1989, at the very apex of 80's butt-rock heavy
metal. My school had probably 200 guys with ratted out long hair, most of whom
owned a guitar and dreamed of being a rock star.

Of that group, probably 50 played well enough to do a creditable "Eruption"
solo, and there were half a dozen guys who could get on stage at an assembly
and keep the entire school entertained for 10 minutes.

Lots of those guys, when asked what they planned to do after school would look
you in the eye and tell you they were going to be a rock star. Lots of them
tried, forgoing college to form bands and live the dream. At the time, there
were so many stories of starving bands rising out of the LA club scene to land
million dollar contracts that it seemed like all you had to do was show up. It
was a lot like reading the tech press today about the Bay Area.

Anybody care to guess how many of the guys from my school actually became rock
stars?

So here we are, 20 years later, seeing exactly the same pattern. We hear about
the Twitters of the world, getting zillions of dollars for some trivial idea,
and figure we can do that too. And just like the kid from my youth with the
Judas Priest t-shirt, we ignore the overwhelming amount of evidence we see
every day that there's pretty much zero chance of that happening.

Here's an idea for a reality check. Do a quick search for "Ask HN: Rate my
startup" here. Count(*), then Count(millionaires). That's what you're up
against.

If I were in school, I'd stick it out just to hedge my bet.

~~~
Mc_Big_G
I was one of those guys and if I hadn't given it a shot, I would have
regretted it for the rest of my life. I learned some hard lessons and then
went to college and got a bachelor's in engineering.

Okay, so I put off financial security for a few years, but I have a lot of
great memories and the satisfaction of knowing I had the balls to try. No
regrets.

From the condescending tone of your post, it seems you think you're better
than all those guys who pursued their dream. You're wrong and I salute each
and every one of them. What fun is life if you don't take chances?

~~~
agentultra
Right on.

I dropped out of high-school to work at a web company programming in perl. I
was ensconced with the idea of doing something I usually tinkered with at
three in the morning while trying not to wake up my mother AND making a butt-
load of cash doing it (at least for a teenager).

The crash came about a year later and I had to go back to finish school so I
could get into college. That was a little embarrassing, but I got through
it...

... and did it again. Fast-tracked a year of audio engineering and thought I
could start up a label and produce records. Started my own business this time.

 _sigh_

I wouldn't get back into programming for a few years, but I say it was worth
it.

Now I love programming, but who knows? In a few years I might want to be
building hot-rods or running an expat cafe in some foreign country.

You only get to live once.

UPDATE: _edited for spelling/grammar/clarity_

------
kyro
It's funny, because even people like Zuckerberg eventually had to pull in
experts with extensive educational backgrounds to help in developing the
company. And if you look at any billion dollar company, those with degrees
have played and continue to play a critical role in said company's growth and
success. While I do agree that with a field like computer science, real world
experience rather than educational background may be far more valuable (read:
Diaspora), I hope this mentality is limited to those within that demographic.
This certainly does not apply to people pursuing medicine, law, finance, etc.
Some of the comments go so far as to claim that higher education is this era's
biggest scam, which is an extremely ignorant view. I attend medical school
currently, and am certain that the value I gain from the plethora of resources
available, from discussing cases with professors to sticking my hands in a
cadaver, is significantly more than that I'd get out of watching a few videos
online, or taking some dissection tutorial. And these resources aren't free.

~~~
nostrademons
"Some of the comments go so far as to claim that higher education is this
era's biggest scam, which is an extremely ignorant view."

There is a gigantic difference between medical school and University of
Phoenix.

~~~
lzw
And between getting training on a job where you actually do the work involved
and "watching videos online".

------
treblig
This is an excellent post, and a very timely one with The Social Network
coming out. The film certainly glamorizes startup life, and makes it seem like
you won't fail.

I released my iPhone app this Summer (SeizeTheDay,
<http://seizethedayapp.com>). I'm in school at Ohio State for my senior year.
We got featured on the App Store, and received app of the week from Time and
CNET. This has put us around 100k downloads in the first couple of months.
While in SF this Summer, I received a lot of advice to drop out and blow it
up. I disagree significantly. College is fun, and the idea is that it's
something I can do on the side while I'm in school.

I'm currently making somewhere between beer money and a salary from iAds (will
probably post some data on this at some point when we have more data
available). I figure if I can grow revenue to about 4x what we're currently
doing, I can afford to dive in full time. This gives me 9 months of school to
keep working on the side, and see if it's realistic when I graduate.

We put about $800 of investment into it, and our only recurring cost is
Apple's dev license ($100/year). While not every startup can operate this way,
I feel this is the way to do it. Our model lends itself pretty well to
tackling a small problem and growing slowly.

~~~
jcnnghm
I've been using your app for the last couple of weeks. I think it's the best
tasks app on the iPhone at this point, really well thought out and easy to
use. Any plans to offer an in-app upgrade to disable ads?

~~~
treblig
Coming next week :)

------
faramarz
There still is a stigma for putting university on hold or dropping out. Trust
me there is. All you guys (Arrington included) in the valley are in a bubble,
which is fine, because it works there but the rest of society doesn't feel the
same (good or bad).

Anywhere else, your family, your friends, your colleagues, they will not take
you seriously until you finish your degree.

The stigma will only die when every single college dropout has found success.
So.. let's not egg people on to quit school because social pressures aren't
there anymore, that's not true.

Secondly, I don't thinking you have to quit completely. I am a HUGE supporter
of taking a year or two off after high-school to explore the world, read
books, grow up and develop a character before pursuing post-secondary
education.

This is what I did and I can tell you every word that came out of my
professors mouth made sense to me, and if it didn't I would challenge him and
raise my voice. I understood the subjects better. I felt compelled to
challenge myself and take on TA roles. If I had gone to university straight
out of high-school, I don't think I would have benefited the same way.

This expectation that you have to choose a college in your senior year,
getting accepted, doing four years and moving on to a job has made student
numb. not dumb, but numb to the fact that they're merely a tiny spec in an
automated process. No one really grasps the subject as long as they memorize
enough to pass the course, and eventually get handed a piece of paper which
they can get a job with.

Break out of this cycle and start learning. You will then see education as a
tool that will broaden your horizon and open a lot more opportunities.

~~~
btmorex
Disagree completely. I only have about 50 college credits and have no plans to
finish. I've also lived pretty much all over the United States and there
really isn't much of a stigma... certainly not from my friends and family.

Large companies and universities might have to make special arrangements for
you to be on the right "career track", but that's about it (and they will do
that, I have personal experience with a University inventing a new position
for me).

~~~
faramarz
Then IMO you're in the small percentage of people who are motivated enough,
talented enough and have the discipline to go and get what they want. Most
people need to be taught that.

~~~
ant5
No, most people are taught _not_ to pursue their own individual goals during
the first two decades of institutionalized education.

------
alain94040
It's really so much simpler... they are both right.

While in college, start a startup!

It's the optimal time of your life where taking such a risk is really no risk
at all. If your idea takes-off, great, figure out what to do _then_. For
everyone else, finish your degree and try again soon (you'll be that much more
experienced).

~~~
dasil003
I like your answer, though I was actually gonna say the opposite.

They're both wrong! First of all this aim high stuff is nonsense. Facebook did
not start with the goal of toppling MySpace. Microsoft did not start with the
goal of running on 95% of machines. Twitter did not start with the thought of
becoming a billion dollar company. These companies get their through
consistent cycles of ambition and execution. There's nothing particular about
a "lifestyle" business other than that the ambition has waned. There's
literally no business that exists that can not have ambitions and grow into a
major corporation through a series of growth cycles. Likewise, there's no
business plan for a billion dollar company that someone can draw up from day 1
and have it survive the market on its way to that size.

As for education, _that's_ the qualification for knowing how to run a
business? There's nothing about growing a business from nothing to 9 figures
that a few years in the trenches of silicon valley won't teach you better than
education. Sure higher ed can teach you a lot, and you can make a lot of
connections, but there's nothing special about it, and in fact it doesn't
really have the same culture that makes successful startups possible. My
advice to anybody in college with a project as successful as Facebook was at
the time Zuckerberg dropped out is, "yes, you should drop out too. You won't
be the next Zuckerberg (that ship has sailed), but you'll likely meet with
some success in the valley, and certainly you'll learn more about running a
real business than you were going to finishing out school."

~~~
ahoyhere
1000x YES on the "aim high stuff is nonsense." It's cargo-culting, pure and
simple. Copying the way an accidental empire was built is as silly as building
a straw plane in the hopes that the real plane will come back. Or buying Aeron
chairs and a foosball table.

As Basho once wrote, "Do not seek to follow in the footsteps of the wise. Seek
what they sought."

That said, can't agree with you on the statement that a lifestyle business is
a business where the ambition has waned. Lots of people with "lifestyle"
businesses are getting exactly what they wanted. Getting what you want is
getting what you want, regardless of whether somebody on the outside deems
your ambitions "good enough."

HNers seem to treat "lifestyle business" like a slur, while lionizing people
with unlikely lifestyle businesses (hi patio11). I'd like to see that
cognitive dissonance resolved.

~~~
dasil003
Careful there. I put "lifestyle" in quotes due to my own rejection of the
prevailing VC-driven silicon valley disdain for lower-growth businesses. FWIW
I also feel like HN is pretty well balanced on this issue as well (at least
compared to SV at large).

However ambition is ambition, let's not redefine the word as a means of
affirmative action. I never made a value judgement that every business should
have endless ambition, or that getting what you want from a business and being
satisfied is bad; I merely stated that the moniker "lifestyle business" is
defined more by the ambitions of those running the company than any inherent
quality of the business.

~~~
ahoyhere
Late to the party but, that word (ambition) doesn't mean what you think it
means. It only means "a strong desire to do or achieve something" -- it
doesn't pass judgment on how "big" that thing is.

By your (faulty) definition... for you to want to own a world-class airline is
ambitious. But for Richard Branson, it's a deal brokered over lunch. See the
problem?

------
d_r
The main point, really, is causation. Mark Zuckerberg (and Bill Gates, Sergey
Brin, etc, etc) dropped out of school AFTER starting a successful business.
Even Paul Graham quit his day job AFTER starting a successful business.

On the other hand, dropping out of school, or even quitting your day job, do
not guarantee success.

~~~
alex1
I thought Bill Gates left school to start a company. He hadn't even started a
company before dropping out.

~~~
d_r
Technically, it seems both are correct.

(From <http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/exec/billg/?tab=biography>) _While
at Harvard, Gates developed a version of the programming language BASIC for
the first microcomputer - the MITS Altair.

In his junior year, Gates left Harvard to devote his energies to Microsoft, a
company he had begun in 1975 with his childhood friend Paul Allen._

------
rumpelstiltskin
There's just 2 problems with Vivek's position -

a) Cost - In today's economic climate, I simply cannot justify an education
that, on avg, costs over $100K. Especially when student loans are involved.

b) Time - 4 yrs is an unnecessarily long amount of time for a bachelors
degree, not to mention another 1-2 yrs for a masters. The opportunity cost of
this time only compounds the first problem.

Edit: Sorry, I should have been more clear. In terms of cost, I meant that
there's an institutional problem within the American education system that
allows for such skyhigh tuition rates.

The same reasoning applies to time. Sure, students can ramp up their classes
and finish a 4 yr degree in 3 yrs, but why should they have to? Why not make
it 2-3 yrs to begin with? This can easily be done by making non-relevant
classes optional instead of core for a given major (for example, I had to take
a course in art as part of my biology major).

~~~
mikeryan
I can kind of see the cost point - though most would argue that the lifetime
earnings of someone with a college degree far outweigh a $100K investment.

But the time thing kind of bugs me. As driven as HN is this may be a minority
position but I really don't believe you should be working (in a 9-5 career
style job) between 18-24. I really don't care so much abou t college, but have
fun, go out, date guys and girls, travel, there are so many things you should
be doing at that age then starting a business and you'll end up better for it.

I didn't start my career until my late 20s and I don't regret that at all.

~~~
jackowayed
How'd you finance that?

~~~
mikeryan
Waiting tables and tending bar, great jobs for your early 20s ;-)

~~~
jackowayed
How much did you work? Given how little waiters make, it seems like you'd have
to work something close to full time to get by, especially with enough excess
to cover travel, which makes it no more free than a real job, but making less
and doing less interesting stuff.

Now, consulting 5-10 hours a week (or a few months a year) while enjoying
yourself and traveling could be appealing.

~~~
mikeryan
It really depends on where you work but waiters make pretty decent money (for
a 20 something) - and its all cash. You get payed minimum wage in CA but that
just about covers the amount you need to pay in taxes. I'd work about 25 hours
a week and get about $20 in a paycheck every 2 weeks. You really end up not
paying much in taxes (I'd guess closer to 15% then the 30-40% you'd end up
paying salaried) so the money you make goes further. I worked at Bucks in
Woodside CA, which is actually a bit notorious with the Sand Hill VC crowd. If
you needed to you could make rent in a weekend by picking up extra shifts.
Then the rest is cash. I mainly worked nights and could pick up some other
work during the day if I needed to. When I wanted to travel I'd slam out about
2 months of serious work and do fine for a few weeks of travel. You also get
to know people in the industry so I could take time off and pretty easily find
a job when I got back.

I definitely made more money waiting tables 25 hours a week then my first two
40hr positions salaried.

But hey consulting would be a good way to go too.

------
alex1
I think that saying something like "dropping out of college increases your
chance of success in a startup, just look at the Forbes 'Richest People in
America' list" is a huge fallacy. Let's face it, _most_ college dropouts will
not become billionaires.

But, there are exceptions.

I recently went through the Forbes billionaire list and picked out everyone
that made their fortune through technology. I found that about ~35% had no
Bachelor's degrees and ~55% had no Master's degrees. Then I looked at the top
7 on the list and saw that more than 50% did not have Bachelor's degrees. It
is also interesting to note that billionaire college dropouts are worth $9bn
on average, compared to billionaires with Ph.D.'s, worth an average of $3bn.

Most college dropouts don't become billionaires. But, an overwhelming number
of tech billionaires _are_ college dropouts. Interesting...

Why is there such a high percentage of tech billionaires that are college
dropouts? My theory is that there are people that are born entrepreneurs and
will become billionaires whichever path they take in life. Most of these
people are very smart, and, as a result, end up going to Ivy Leagues. But, a
time comes (usually around age 19 or sophomore year in college), when
something just wakes up in them and they decide to drop out and take the
plunge. These are the Bill Gates and Mark Zuckerbergs of the world.

Dropping out of college does not increase your chances of success. If you look
at statistics, it decreases your chances. It's just that the born
entrepreneurs "wake up" right around age 19-20 (which happens to be right in
the middle of college), and end up dropping out. Only if you are in this tiny
group of born entrepreneurs would it make sense for you to drop out of
college.

~~~
atomical
This successful entrepreneur probably would have ended up somewhere else if he
had been able to get a job with a criminal record. Sometimes life happens and
people are forced to become entrepreneurs.

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duncan_Bannatyne>

------
yewweitan
Oh, how much different life would be if I were in the US. I'm a University
Student in Australia, and 1 year in Stanford is literally equivalent to 4
years in Melbourne University (say $40,000/year for stanford vs the
$5,000/year I pay now). Not to mention that my education is on an interest-
free government loan.

I can see why it's so appealing for a University student to want to drop out
solely because of the cost. We all have to admit that University can't
possibly cover all bases and teach one how to build a business and product. We
also have to admit that University provides some very valuable connections,
knowledge and perspectives for those who are there.

Hence, to me, it's a question of relative value.

That aside, it then again depends on the type of career path you want to take
down the road. If you're in the software world, I guess you can say that
building a software product is something that you can do without University.
Or put slightly different, University won't make you a better programmer.

Merit in our world is won by building the better hack. However, I've got
friends in accounting and finance who have leveraged the crap out of the
exposure opportunities at University. I'm sure many of them will land high-
paying jobs in the future.

Bottom line is to know your system and thrive.

I sorta dislike the way Vivek tries to push statistics of startup founders as
a justification for a college education. Statistics show the current state of
affairs, but they don't necessarily link to the point that he is trying to
make.

Basically, what he says is that one should learn the ropes by working for some
large companies, or even at a startup. The assumption there is that you need a
degree to work at a company to gain experience, which again, varies by field
(accountants better have a degree, coders at a startup, maybe not).

That said, I agree with his evaluations on the merits of a college education.
It would also be stupid to admit that a college degree doesn't confer a
certain level of credibility; I'm sure that those with a degree will find it
easier to get their foot in the door at large companies.

After all of that, the questions I still think needs to be answered first and
foremost is: What does it cost? Am I ready to bear that cost?

------
anondropout
(long time user, anon for obvious reasons)

I say you should drop out for a sufficiently interesting project. Even if it
doesn't work out, by the time you're done you'll have enough experience to be
far ahead of your peers.

Personally, I dropped out of a top-tier school to found a startup (we closed
our Series A ~3 weeks after I decided not to sign up for classes. Scariest 3
weeks of my life ;-)). After I left the startup, I was worried about my
options w/o a degree - but it's really not a problem.

Within 2 weeks of leaving I had 6-figure offers in NYC, Chicago, and SF. I'm
now 24 yrs old, making ~$200K/year, doing work I really enjoy, and still no
degree.

The important thing is to prove you can do stuff. And the best proof of that
is _actually_ having done stuff.

------
ojbyrne
Even if you look at Zuckerberg, he hedged his bets quite a bit. He went to
Harvard, started facebook, then worked on it full time for a summer, and even
when he decided he wasn't going to go back in the fall, it could easily have
been just a year off.

------
rblion
Not everyone is meant to learn within four walls and from dispassionate, jaded
professors. In my view, the best way to learn about life and how to survive
using your skills and talents is 'in the wild' or by autodidacticism aka
'learning by experimentation by day and reading classics by night'. Just be
prepared for a lot of initial rejection and to have enough conviction to walk
to Mordor in your bare feet. It will take a lot more effort but it will make
you much greater in the end.

I am 20. I dropped out a semester before I was to transfer to Georgia Tech. I
dropped out because I know the surest path to greatness is autodidacticism.
It's the way da Vinci, Lincoln, Einstein, and Jobs/Wozniack did it. Being a
bit more rebellious and more curious than most, it's the only method of
learning that I have ever excelled with anyways. I taught myself to read and
write at 3 watching Disney movies with captions. I have been reading a book a
week since 5th grade. My dad got me into web design and development while I
was in middle school. By the end of high school, I was already feeling jaded
with our Industrial Age school system and decided to learn of the Cosmos by
direct experience...

HOW I GOT A WORLD CLASS EDUCATION FOR FREE:

1\. ) I worked for my older brother's bootstrapped startup (Myriann.com). I
watched him build websites from scratch, close big deals while still in
college, and manage a team of designers and developers from all over the
world. He is profitable and on pace to retire within a few years (if he
wanted).

2.) I took advantage of iTunes U, TED, my public library, and free lectures
from MIT, Stanford, and Harvard. I read world classics, epic biographies, and
all branches of science. I discovered myself by going deeper into all subjects
to the root of where each came from and why each exists. I now have a deep
passion to be an artist and a scientist for the rest of my life. I will remain
a student the rest of my life and apply everything I learn to my work...

3.) MY WORK: I am building a startup by trial and error. I have attempted to
launch a startup 7 times since I was 15. All of them have had little success
or went up in flames. I learned from each attempt and kept asking, thinking,
and creating. I am now on attempt #8 and will try to enter YC this fall. I
have never applied before.

DON'T LET YOUR VOICE BE DROWNED BY DOGMA!!!!!!

------
eof
If school is free, it's definitely worth it. But to take 60-100k out for a
good school, and to get the maximum value, you are talking 4 years of time and
effort plus 1-3 likely years salary.

In those same 5 years, if you're willing to struggle, take on a little debt,
apply yourself to learning whatever it is you were going to be learning in
school, you'd likely come out ahead.

Maybe I underestimate the opportunities that are opened to you when you get
your bachelors. Obviously, the connections you get from an Ivy league school
are priceless. The work ethic you learn from very motivated individuals is
also priceless.

But the reality is the vast majority of people going to school aren't going to
a top tier school. They aren't going to bust their ass, they are going to get
into debt, and they aren't going to come out of it a super solid prospect.

------
grandalf
Sometimes it takes courage to quit school, sometimes it takes courage to stick
with it. Instead of outright quitting I'd recommend using the resources
(discounted housing, compute resources, etc.) with a light course load while
bootstrapping.

------
annajohnson
Is the question really: am I better off completing college, spending a few
years with a big company (or a startup) and then starting my own company... or
is it: what do I want to achieve - e.g. build my own company in the xyz
industry - and what is the best way for me to achieve that? If you know that
you want to start 'a' company but don't know exactly what kind of company or
what industry, etc the question may then become: what would I like to learn
about and what will enable me to learn about that? The answer may well be to
go to / stay in college and then work for a company or two in order to develop
business skills and work out what kind of business you'd like to build. On the
other hand, if you know exactly what you want to start, and have the skills
and resources to 'just do it', maybe you are better off dropping out of
college. Personally, I am almost a textbook example of Vivek's advice
precisely because I wasn't sure what kind of business I wanted to start back
in my high school and university days. I will say this, though, even if you
stay in college or work for another company, I recommend starting some kind of
business on the side. Not only will you learn skills you won't learn at
college or in a big company - and you may stumble on the business you really
want to commit to - but it will also help off-set the socialization (i.e. to
keep that nice, high paying job with benefits) that can arise in a big
corporate environment and that may stop you from ever taking the
entrepreneurial plunge.

------
byrneseyeview
It's weird that Vivek Wadhwa's articles keep running on TechCrunch. All his
controversial posts say is that the conventional wisdom outside of the valley
is better than the conventional wisdom inside it. If you asked someone in,
say, Iowa, they would say that dropping out of college to start a startup is a
bad idea, that your CEO should be older and more experienced, that an MBA is a
smart decision, etc.

If I wanted to hear that, I'd just ask my parents.

------
danielnicollet
I agree with that call for students thinking twice before dropping out for a
startup. If everyone is leaving school to start companies, just go the other
direction. This is just a classical case of market psychology. You never want
to enter the tail-end of a big wave of risk-taking like this. Education is one
of the lowest risk, highest return investment you'll ever make.

------
nedwin
I went back to finish by degree after a few years in the work force and while
it has been tough it's definitely been rewarding.

It certainly hasn't stopped me pursuing the startup life and over the last
three years I've worked on a bunch of startup projects with varying degrees of
success.

Being a university student meant that I could open doors not normally open to
me, getting access to mentors and market data that I wouldn't have if I was
out in the open. It also meant that while I was switching between startups I
could get away without being seen as flaky as I was still "just" a university
student.

I'm now in a profitable startup that is growing incredibly fast but still
studying, hoping to graduate in the middle of next year. People around me have
said "why finish? surely you've proved you don't need university by now?" but
from where I'm standing I have to finish.

I used to say "if I get to x revenue or if y deal happens then I'll drop out".
But having hit a couple of those milestones I'm still there - I need to prove
to myself that I can finish this.

------
DanielBMarkham
_The harsh reality is that for every Zuckerberg, there are a thousand who drop
out of college and fail. Many get discouraged after their failures and move to
other professions which require less skill and education._

So if this is the problem, the goal here should be to prevent folks from
getting discouraged and doing things they'd rather not do, right? To keep on
learning no matter what place they live in, right?

Or is the goal to self-validate the importance of colleges?

Yes, you are probably not Mark Zuckerberg, but that's okay. Mark Zuckerberg
wasn't Mark Zuckerberg either until FB took off. As long as you work hard and
keep learning you'll do as well as anybody else, college or not. In fact, it's
better to work hard and keep learning than it is to get pieces of paper to
hang on your wall. Many times you can get so enamored with the little bits of
paper you forget the "work hard and keep learning" part.

------
vaksel
I've said it time and time again...college is not that tasking...at most
you'll spend 20-25 hours a week on it. With half of that being bullshit
classes you are taking as a requirement. Which gives you a ton of time to work
on your startup.

------
mlinsey
An under-emphasized detail is what your college's policy is on leave-of-
absences, or allowing dropouts to return. For me, dropping out to try my first
startup and returning to school after it failed was literally filling out a
single-sided form when I left and filling out a similar single-sided form when
I wanted to return. If it's that easy at your college, the risk of dropping
out is extremely small, so if you have an idea you are passionate about and
the opportunity to execute on it, you may as well try. I'll bet somebody told
Mark Zuckerberg that he was probably not Bill Gates, so he should probably
stay in school.

------
ndl
"To build a business, you need to understand subjects like finance, marketing,
intellectual property and corporate law."

Many colleges, especially small ones, have absolutely nothing in these
subjects. As for the ones that do, many successful founders and MBA holders
tell me to be suspicious of said programs' ability to prepare one for actual
entrepreneurship (as opposed to writing academic papers about
entrepreneurship).

I personally did finish college (this year), majoring in physics with minors
in math and computer science. I attended a small liberal arts college with no
practical business classes, of which I took 3 by hacking around the system.
The physics major taught me how to get projects done, work efficiently and
endure recurring high-stress situations. The math minor taught me that I
suffocate in a room with too many mathematicians. The CS minor was really a
collection of "X cool research area has Y," which is occasionally relevant. I
definitely learned in a college, though I've yet to reach a conclusion on
whether it was "worthwhile." I wish I'd taken more theatre and had more fun.

I'm much more weary of grad school. As far as I can tell, college is more
about exploring and learning general life lessons, while grad school buys you
specialization. Specialization has power; most tech companies recognize this
and hire PhDs as soon as they can afford to. But I currently have every reason
to think that great founders are better off as generalists. Specialists get
pulled in to support specific areas. Furthermore, while I admire those who
were born to do one thing and do it well, I'm not one of them. I have very
little idea what I would study. I certainly don't intend to spend my life
researching a narrow subfield of physics. Unlike in college, I couldn't spend
the 1st 2 years of a PhD or masters program field hopping. Occasionally
someone tempts me with an interdisciplinary program; maybe I'll try one of
these someday. Part of the draw of entrepreneurship is how multifaceted it
appears.

I have every reason to believe that for recent college grads dreaming of
startups, the best way to get experience is by trying it. That's exactly what
I'm doing at the moment. I also tried to form a startup in college. That
didn't go too well. Now I'm starting up full time.

------
dalewindon
I read this and all I can say is the education system is not creating
entrepreneurs. I belive an entrepreneur is a person who has clear goals and
sheer determination. Persistance is the key to success, you dont have to go to
harvard to become wealthy... you just need to know what you want and the world
will bend around you!... Keep networking and you can allways find people who
can help make your dream into a reality!

~~~
palish
It's interesting that HN is developing an anti-drop-out-of-school mentality.
It's been fun to watch it manifest itself.

People probably do it through a combination of "I don't want to be partially
responsible for screwing with a kid's life" and "if they get discouraged from
starting a startup, they weren't meant to anyway".

That said, it's kind of silly that your insightful (and true) comment is being
set upon by those types of people.

------
siddhant
This is (IMHO) very opposite to what this article says -
<http://www.stanford.edu/~pgbovine/startup.htm>

Vivek talks about gathering experience before you start/join a startup (I
think he mostly talks about _starting_ a startup, rather than working for
one), while Philip talks about why you should work for a startup right after
your undergrad.

------
Jun8
Look, actually it's quite simple:

1\. Finish your undergraduate, because in most societieis there's a big stigma
associated with not having a college degree.

2\. While doing that, assess yourself. If you think you've got the
entrepreneurial balls, don't get a degree. It's a sure way to (slightly)
higher salary but wastes time at a crucial stage in your life, i.e. the pre-
wife, pre-kids time.

3\. Problem is, you can assess yourself theoretically only up to a certain
point. You've got to try. So, set a time limit, e.g. 1 year, start a company
and give it a shot. Then, go back to (2) and reassess. Steps (2)-(3) may be
repeated a couple of times till you converge.

I traveled the path of least resistance since (i) there was no one around to
give me the above advice and (ii) I was in a another country where doing a
start-up was rare at an early (or late) stage.

------
devmonk
IMO what's wrong with kids wanting to be entrepreneurs? He might not be the
best role model, but so what? We need a culture that supports and admires
startups and small business.

------
rahooligan
Whether or not a wannabe entrepreneur should quit school and swing for the
fences really depends on his level of competency. Some folks like gates, jobs
and zuckerberg are competent enough to pull it off. Some arent. But if you are
serious about becoming a successful entrepreneur you have to assume that you
can pull it off which means that you should quit school.

------
atomical
Most students probably don't think that they are the next Mark Zuckerberg but
some are probably thinking about the merits of taking a chance and learning
something versus taking a bunch of meaningless courses or writing a paper that
will never see the light of day.

------
myoung8
He doesn't seem to realize that you can learn all those things they teach you
in business school (finance, marketing, corporate law) as you go if you're a
real entrepreneur. Sure, you might make a few mistakes early on, but there's
no better way to learn.

------
garrettgillas
@vwadhwa "Does anyone think that Mike would have been able to build TechCrunch
if he was a college dropout?"

\- I do. So would @petecashmore.

<http://twitter.com/garrettgillas/status/25568001071>

------
rblion
Fix your course to a star, not a degree. Neg me, I don't care. Just think
about how short life is and how capable any of us are when we really apply
ourselves. Why do you need anyone's approval to change the world?

------
amichail
One problem with college is that you start to develop interests that are
completely out of touch with what users want.

The more educated you are, the less practical your startup ideas.

~~~
ryanhuff
I would agree if your users are not college educated. Otherwise, I don't see
it.

Anyhow, life is more than just catering to user "wants". Yes, college is
mostly seen as a gateway to a profession, but you can get much more than job
skills out of the experience.

------
dzlobin
That chart is stupidly loaded. How about the figures for startups with
founders that didn't graduate from the Ivy League?

------
bretthellman
Don't beat people down. You only live once.

------
marknutter
Except that Mark Zuckerberg himself didn't know he would become "Mark
Zuckerberg."

------
gfodor
I've never read "Outliers", but apparently neither has Arrington.

------
eof
I could not find a video of this, anyone got a link?

------
jteo
Correlation does not imply causation.

------
bialecki
The comments here are a wall of text.

------
palish
_Here is the problem with Arrington’s logic: students may come up with great
ideas and start a company, but they aren’t going to be able make it big unless
they have the educational foundation._

Oh _really_?

