
Socioeconomic group classification based on user features [pdf] - isp
http://pimg-faiw.uspto.gov/fdd/83/2018/28/003/0.pdf
======
zwaps
This is written so broad... facebook basically has just patented statistical
classification if its output are socioeconomics?

How can this be legal? Facebook did not invent machine learning. How can they
patent it?

~~~
citilife
It hasn't been challenged yet, and it likely wont be. Basically, Facebook (and
other companies) patent stuff so if they are sued they can counter sue.
Essentially, causing a kind of nuclear war for the companies (think Apple and
Samsung).

The whole point is to avoid conflict. Even if it's not enforceable it might
cost a few hundred thousand to million dollars to fight it.

~~~
dilap
and non-nuclear-powers (companies w/o a large portfolio of patents) just get
arbitrarily fucked? what a system!

~~~
MichaelMoser123
I think these companies just don't get involved in nuclear confrontations of
this kind - it's a costly buiseness; this is a game for the big suckers. You
still might want to get a few patents of your own in order to prop up your own
valuation. (If you want to be bought out by a bigger player)

~~~
_jal
BigCos routinely use patents against small players. It isn't a huge war only
because the small player can't fight back in kind.

~~~
_rpd
On the contrary, patents are one of the few mechanisms available to small
players that 'BigCos' respect.

------
binalpatel
This seems like Facebook's trying to break more into the realm that the big
credit agencies have occupied re: data products.

All the big credit agencies (Experian, Equifax, Transunion, etc) have products
that cluster people into socioeconomic groups, with ridiculous names.

[https://www.experian.com/assets/marketing-
services/brochures...](https://www.experian.com/assets/marketing-
services/brochures/mosaic-brochure.pdf)

Examples from that brochure:

"American Royalty" "Small Town Shallow Pockets" "Full Pockets, Empty Nests"

~~~
mindslight
Letting them hide behind their branding as "credit agencies" is ridiculously
naive in this day and age. They are surveillance companies. Faceboot's only
difference is being a relative newcomer compared to the incumbents.

This entire surveillance industry is an escalating crime against humanity.

------
jeffreyrogers
Most commenters seem unclear on how patents work in the US, so here's a brief
summary:

1\. Patents starts out as patent applications (what this document is). A
patent application by itself doesn't give you any legal rights.

2\. After waiting a year or more, your patent application gets reviewed by a
USPTO examiner. The examiner either approves it and grants you a patent
contingent on you paying a fee, or (more likely) tells you what's wrong with
your patent application or cites prior art that already does what you claim
and asks you to make changes.

3\. All parts of the patent application except the claims section (which is
the very last part) are for background and explanation only. They don't
determine what you're patenting or whether someone is infringing your patent.
These sections are supposed to be clear enough that someone with ordinary
skill in whatever field your invention comes from could read these parts of
your patent and reproduce your invention.

4\. The claims section (which starts with "What is claimed is:") is very
carefully worded to be as unambiguous as possible and carefully lay out
exactly what the invention is and what its scope is. Any good patent agent or
attorney will make these claims as broad as possible while still being
patentable so that you get the broadest monopoly possible and have the
greatest chance of successfully prosecuting an infringer.

5\. The claims section is the only part that matters for determining
infringement. The text in the rest of the patent and the figures show what the
invention is so that someone can reproduce it, but they aren't used to
determine the scope of your invention.

------
drtillberg
It appears that FB [edit: is attempting to patent] a questionnaire that allows
them to guess your socioeconomic status from, for example, where you live, how
old you are, and how many internet-connected appliances you have. Another
argument for overhaul of the US patent system, and to delete the FB app.

------
isp
Facebook patent application (US 20180032883) for "classifiers input
information about a user and output a probability that the user belongs to a
given socioeconomic group".

Relevant Twitter thread:
[https://twitter.com/WolfieChristl/status/960630738256367617](https://twitter.com/WolfieChristl/status/960630738256367617)

Copy-and-paste friendly version of the patent application, but without images:
[http://appft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-
Parser?Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=H...](http://appft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-
Parser?Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&d=PG01&p=1&u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsrchnum.html&r=1&f=G&l=50&s1=%2220180032883%22.PGNR.&OS=DN/20180032883&RS=DN/20180032883)

Limited news coverage, e.g., [http://expressnewsline.com/2018/02/05/facebook-
to-develop-sy...](http://expressnewsline.com/2018/02/05/facebook-to-develop-
system-to-track-users-socioeconomic.html)

Full disclosure: repost of
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16315606](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16315606)
(from 70 days ago). Reposted by explicit request of the mods. May now be
exceptionally topical in light of the Facebook revelations that have occurred
since.

------
osteele
A patent doesn’t grant the assignee the right to use a technique. It grants
them the right to _keep others_ from doing so. Whether or not this patent is
granted, a separate mechanism, such as regulation or legislation, would be
necessary to prevent Facebook from employing the methods it claims — unless
someone else, who could afford to litigate it and wouldn’t license to Facebook
(a ”non-practicing non-licensing entity” (NPNLE), or “benevolent troll”?), had
patented it first.

------
prepend
This could be really useful for targeted public Health messaging and services.

TV stations need to broadcast a certain number of hours of public good
programming. Online ads should show a percentage of ads for public good.

An algorithm like this could do good since it may have better sensitivity and
specificity than self reported data but would need to be used by non-FB people
to make sure that it’s really for public good rather than has the appearance
of public good.

~~~
PeterStuer
... and ketchup counts as a vegetable in a healthy school lunch. Good luck
with those "public 'health' messages".

~~~
vonmoltke
No, it doesn't. That proposed guideline, as ludicrous as it was to even be
proposed, was rightly rejected and never went into force.

~~~
Retra
And this is why an expert propagandist understands that you don't need to
prove anything. You just say it (preferably with some emotionally-wrapped
slogan), and three to ten years later, people will simply recite what you've
said as though it is fact.

Of course, you can pad it in weasel words and boring facts. Nobody will
remember those parts of the message anyway.

------
diehunde
Wait, is this controversial because of what are they doing with the data? Or
because they are trying to patent something it shouldn't be patentable ?

~~~
monochromatic
It’s controversial because people don’t understand patents.

------
mylons
Fig 2 basically encompasses what most machine learning production services
look like, minus the socioeconomic classifier. Should we all start trying to
patent our classifiers now?

~~~
jeffreyrogers
The claims section (at the end of the document) is what is used to determine
infringement. The rest of the document (including the figures) just
illustrates what the invention is and describes how to make it.

~~~
clavalle
And the claims section basically says 'collect online data, compare it to a
trained socioeconomic classifier and classify said data into socioeconomic
groups'.

------
Arqu
Personally, even with the recent news, I'm still having mixed feeling about
the whole ordeal.

On one side I'm not against using/collecting data for the purpose of better
content (=better engagement) or more targeted ads (still better than looking
at ads that have nothing to do with me). Though I am for it to be anonymized
(ie separating the personal data from the generic things like names from items
bought) however that is pretty much useless from the moment you enter your
name anywhere as they can basically fingerprint the data and match it up to
you anyways.

On the flipside of this, I don't like the direction this all is going - sure I
like tailored content, but at what point do we reach a threshold where people
are just shoved content down their throat since they cant find stuff outside
these mechanisms to broaden their view and interests.

More related to this topic, as long as the data is there, someone will analyze
it, and socioeconomic targeting has been done for a while already (you don't
market 8K curved suround sound TVs to 90 year olds) this is just a step up.
However I'm a bit scared of when we reach the tipping point on content in
terms of targeting: what we might want to see vs what it might want us to see.

~~~
qwertox
I'd rather have untargeted ads.

When I read a printed tech magazine, I get the ad targeting that may be
interesting for me, just because of the content I'm reading. There is no other
information flowing back to online advertisers, or, to be more realistic,
person tracking companies, which is what they really are. The content should
be enough to determine the ad category, which would suite your desire for more
engaging ads.

There's no reason why online publications can't do that as well. If I read a
blog post about food, show me an ad about the coolest frying pan on earth and
also one about the one with the best price to performance to ratio.

Show me ads for a Porsche even if I can't afford it, I may in a couple of
years, and in the meantime the ads may have told my subconsciousness that this
Porsche should be my goal.

~~~
efdee
This is possible for focused websites (like the website about food you
mention), but not really for something generic like Facebook. Unless they
start guessing what you are interested in based on your behavior, which is
kind of what they do now.

~~~
sdoering
Then maybe the business model for these genericas should be toast. No entity
has to have the ability to be able to know me in such a fine grained way as to
be able to even target me out of context and influence me for consumerist (or
even political) reasons.

If I am in the mood of car prOn - show me porsche or stuff. If I ready about
python - show me current books on the topic. Or Udemy courses. Or what not.

If I currently read about how to get rid of pimples - show me beauty products.

But don't try to influence me into buying the latest camera gear, when I am
interaction with my animal protection buddies over facebook.

------
monochromatic
1\. This is just an application, not a granted patent.

2\. The title barely matters at all. The claims define what they’re trying to
patent.

------
John_KZ
I have 2 questions:

-Why do they feel the need to patent this? The algorithm look trivial.

-How is this even acceptable? Making decisions based on such "predictors" should be (and often is) illegal.

>Oh, you're physically disabled? I predict this will cause you emotional
distress and you will perform badly in my college. Sorry, you're rejected.

>Oh, you're black? Sorry, my predictors predict you're a criminal! Don't
worry, the police will arrive soon. You are free to use other banking
institutions.

>Oh, you're poor? Sorry sir, we don't sell cars to poor people, because our
predictors say they typically use our free repair services! That costs us
money, please buy a used car from craigslist or something.

I can't comprehend how they could publish and acknowledge using this kind of
profiling. And that's without getting into politics.

------
wufufufu
Quite the incriminating patent title, and it's not even necessary. Couldn't
they just title it "group classification based on user features"?

It's like FB is trying to push us in the direction of China[1] and they don't
care who knows it.

[1] [http://www.scmp.com/week-
asia/opinion/article/2131737/chinas...](http://www.scmp.com/week-
asia/opinion/article/2131737/chinas-credit-ratings-plan-social-media-medium-
social-control)

------
WontLastLong
This is, literally, cyber phrenology. How can Silicon Valley employees support
this kind of crap?

This is a tool to assist in automated censorship: oh, this person claiming to
be black isn't clicking like a black man, he must be a troll and we must stop
fake news!

You do realize how easy that is to compromise, right?

[https://archive.fo/eYWmC](https://archive.fo/eYWmC)

~~~
azinman2
Or more likely... targeted ads.

~~~
WontLastLong
Why do you think they are mutually exclusive?

------
pjonesdotca
Kinda shocked that someone would apply for a patent for a tool that is
essentially a decision tree.

------
fromMars
Wow. I can't believe they are trying to patent this...

------
bediger4000
How do I find out if I'm one of The Poors or not?

~~~
billysielu
Do you Share stuff from pages designed to be viral, e.g. ladbible?

Does your profile picture contain anime/cat/dog features on your face?

If the anwer to both is no, you're clear.

------
press-any-key
Want to see this applied to Warren Buffet who lives in a reasonably modest
house, in a modest city, and shuns computers.

~~~
douglaswlance
That's not how statistics works. They're classifying groups, not individuals.

~~~
emiliobumachar
Really? Could you please elaborate?

I would think they are classifying each individual into one of many groups,
each group being an arbitrarily delineated social class. If that's true, than
Mr. Buffet would indeed have the potential to be misclassified, because his
behaviours ("features") are atypical of people as rich as him.

~~~
ada1981
They may also look at the socioeconomic status of the people you associate
with and make inferences.

------
ada1981
I'd assume they are already using this. FB ads already allow you to target ads
based on household income.

------
robodale
It's just another metric for targeted advertising.

------
clojurestan
Just ask if they like goldeneye or metal gear solid

~~~
js8
Or ask if they like Napoleon Dynamite:
[https://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/23/magazine/23Netflix-t.html](https://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/23/magazine/23Netflix-t.html)

------
eddieschod
Is this ethical?

~~~
swebs
Well it's marketing, so no.

~~~
dumbfounder
An ethical spin can be made on it, as Zuck did in his testimony. He is making
advertising more efficient for small businesses, which helps those businesses
grow. That is a good goal, and I believe this to be true. We just need to
decide if the juice is worth the squeeze.

------
otterley
Mods: can you change the title, please? This is a patent _application_ ; no
patent has yet been issued.

~~~
sctb
Yes, we've updated the headline. Thanks!

------
poster123
Is this a bad thing? Advertisers want this. It does not make sense to market
luxury cars to the poor, for example.

~~~
ozim
To "clickbait" poor person with luxury car is easier than rich person.

It is not a bad thing because in the end yes, will be discriminated at the
counter by amount of money they have. Of course no one should get stuff for
free.

It is bad in general, because people will be closed by their socioeconomic
status and will have less possibilities to see better things. It can reduce
economic mobility by some business not wanting to deal with people who are
classified by automatic classifiers, even though they might have more money,
be smarter, than what their FB history is telling.

------
nimbius
This has powerful implications I believe in the United States and other
nations that are made to hold the tacit communal belief that they are a
largely middle-class society.

Certainly, you could classify these groups in a closed process and operate to
exploit their individual wants and desires, which is something existing models
of capitalist industry engage in already. However, what if Facebook were to do
this all transparently? For example, being sold something with the _explicit_
revelation that your economic class is the primary consumer?

~~~
VLM
The patent seems to be based on defining class solely on the dollar value of
last years income, whereas the actual measures of class membership take other
forms.

There's nothing wrong or useless about advertising based on W-2 income level;
but that won't have greater sociological effects on economic class or
whatever.

Of course via the magic of widely shared credit reports, everyone already
knows actual class breakdowns based on class differences in personal balance
sheets and other measures.

------
pacaro
I wish people wouldn’t post direct links to patents.

The advice from the IP lawyers at every company I’ve worked for (Microsoft,
Dropbox, Amazon, Google) has been to never read patents or patent
applications.

~~~
wmblaettler
I'm honestly curious what the aversion is to reading patents and patent
applications. Is it to avoid suspect patent infringement by being able to
claim ignorance? i.e. "I have not read any patent that relates to some work
that I've created wholly on my own that out of coincidence achieves the same
as a patented work." Does that actually hold up if defending IP?

~~~
dwheeler
> Does that actually hold up if defending IP?

Yes. You are subject to triple damages if you read the patent, so it's foolish
to read patents unless you have to. It's impossible to read all patents, and
patents in almost all cases are useless, so "I didn't read the patent" is the
normal case for software developers.

Patents make no sense for software, and should be abolished for software.

------
OldArrow
I still think Facebook is US government tool . How it was spread in 2006 -
2010 on all foringe media channels financed by USAID. Most people in US still
think that USAID is free money to foringers and want it to cut.

------
narrator
This probably wouldn't hold up in court because it's essentially doing
something marketers have been doing forever, but on a computer[1].

[1]
[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_re_Bilski](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_re_Bilski)

~~~
mkirklions
God I hate patents.

------
walterbell
What if one country wants their poor to stay poor, and one country wants their
poor to aspire to be rich, so they can take advantage of opportunity for
upward mobility?

~~~
cirgue
Why would this patent or the associated technology (which in my view is barely
patenable) have any bearing on a governments ability to do this? Governments
have been doing this very successfully for thousands of years without the need
of a machine learning model.

~~~
walterbell
They were doing this without competition from a machine learning model.

------
nomy99
I was reading through the paper, and it read like a female gathering rating
their boyfriends or new suitors. The algorithm depicted in figure 2 goes, how
old is he? over 30 uh? Does he have a house? Yea? Nice, Where is it? Toronto,
WOW.

I shouldn't be surprised that a machine learning neural model is classified on
the merit of users who are the nosiest classifiers :).

~~~
131012
We haven't patented it, but sociology has studied mating through the lens of
socioeconomic classes for a while. What you describe is upper middle class
mating! You just forgot to ask if he is an engineer, a physician or a lawyer.

~~~
nomy99
I think this is brilliant. We might discover more about society through the
algorithms that spin off from profit based ventures.

