
Cops Cuffed Me for Selling My Own Mac - geierdmtr
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2016/05/17/cops-cuffed-me-for-selling-my-own-mac.html
======
xt00
I've read in the past stories about cops getting tips from people that their
stolen stuff is on Craigslist. At the time I thought it's cool they are
catching people but I guess if they rely upon the thinking of a civilian who
just had their laptop stolen going and saying "omg that's my laptop!!" "I mean
sure the serial number is wrong maybe they are lying about that.. It's totally
mine.. Hey police you gotta bust that guy!" It seems like that is very likely
to result in lots of false positives since your average person is not a
detective.. The police should be doing more digging on this stuff before they
just assume stuff is gonna be stolen.. Especially if part of their MO is to
look for people of color.. Completely unacceptable..

~~~
orbitingpluto
I am responsible for creating a false positive. A notebook was stolen soon
after I received it back from an OEM screen repair. The next day the same
model showed up on Kijiji of all places. From the pictures, I was certain it
was mine because there was an identical ExpressCard, the logo on the back of
the screen was bent just as I had received it from repair, 2 of the 4 stickers
were removed just as mine were, Also the RAM and hard drive were a non-
standard upgraded amount. To top it off, it even had the ubiquitous glowing
mushroom background. The cops checked it out, and the serial # and windows
product key did not match.

The 'collision' of my cosmetic and functional alterations matching with
someone else may have seemed unlikely, but it really wasn't. The laptop did
not have a SD card reader (the expresscard), the stickers were in annoying
places, of course you're going to get the same size of upgraded hard drive &
memory, and that logo attachment sucked. Even the mushroom background was
common enough.

The police showed up and asked to match the numbers at the door of the seller.
There wasn't. They apologized. They phoned me back, and I apologized for
wasting their time. I also made an apology to the seller, who was incredibly
cool about it. Probably because no tasers were involved.

------
fsloth
Pointing a taser at someones neck sounds like incredible lack of
professionalism. How long are cops trained there?

~~~
Pxtl
This, to me, is the real problem. Not that they investigated an accusation of
a crime, but that they immediately resorted to serious threats of violence.

Police officers are trained to do this. The level of fear they carry with them
is massive, and so they have an absolute need for control. Watch some police
training videos and you'll see, many of them follow the same template of
"officer managing mundane situatGUNFIRE!!!", driving home that any suspect
could attempt to murder the officer at any sudden snap moment. So the officers
are trained to be paranoid and demand complete constant compliance. Every
unchoreographed, unexpected movement by the suspect could be preparation to
kill, so the police must demand control of every possible movement of every
person involved. Imagine how terrifying it would be to be, for example, in a
suspect's _house_ with many uncontrolled people wandering around, with that
mindset.

I understand that police are trained to control every situation, but the level
of violence we read about constantly is disproportionate and ludicrous. It
also colors every other interaction with the cops - even when an officer
attempts to "control" the situation with the firm voice and glare that we've
all seen, what should just be an attempt to project authority is instead an
implied violent threat.

With that in mind, it's no wonder that spot-checking/carding programs are
getting banned across many major cities. Many police forces have created the
impression that it is simply not safe to even have the casual interest of an
officer.

~~~
fsloth
So the police act as if targeted by guerrillas at all times? Sounds strangely
of actual class-warfare.

As an extreme counter example, I've understood Norwegian police are unarmed
and pick guns only if situation obviously requires it. So there is nothing
intrinsic in the role of a police officer that would require this level of
aggression. Is US really that violent?

------
coldcode
Why would any police organization spend even 5ms on finding a stolen computer
and have the complainant involved in a "sting"?

~~~
xt00
There are a lot of cities in the US where thefts are being treated by cops as
a "meh sorry just call your insurance company.." So many police depts have
been trying to do something to turn that mentality around since people are
pretty pissed about it.. I had my laptop stolen about 10 years ago and that's
exactly what happened.. The cop showed up like 5 hours after it happened and
was like "yea good luck!" And catching people in the act is exciting for cops
so it's something they are interested in doing.. It's good PR and interesting
for cops.. Until this happens..

~~~
imjk
Same thing happened to me. I had my laptop stolen in Miami while I was there
briefly for work. Spent half the day waiting on police and they wouldn't even
write up a report for me. Told me to take it up with insurance when I got
home. Of course when I got home, the insurance company said they couldn't do
anything for me without a police report.

------
nsxwolf
What's with pictures of him as a kid? What does that add to the story?
Sympathy?

~~~
ch4s3
I assume it is to help you empathize with the person the story is about. Some
people are interested in the human element of news stories, the photos are for
those people.

~~~
richmarr
I suspect they're also for the people who see a black man's face and react
untrustingly.

------
mcphage
> Unfortunately, you’ve got a lot of police misconduct, but I never thought it
> would be on this level. [...] You’re innocent until proven guilty. I was
> guilty until proven innocent.

He was investigated, nothing was found, and he was released. He wasn't
arrested, charged, taken to jail, let alone "guilty until proven innocent".

~~~
dahart
What a dismissive, unsympathetic response.

His computer was temporarily seized & searched without his consent, under
immediate threat of force with a weapon. He was prevented from even voicing
concern or asking questions through threat of violence, and forced to comply
with actions that were not backed by a probable cause or even a reasonable
suspicion of a crime having been committed.

In the US, there are laws against this. What happened there was illegal, with
or without an arrest or charges or jail time.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourth_Amendment_to_the_United...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution#Search)

And he was presumed guilty until the search was completed, that sounds like
'guilty until proven innocent' to me.

Innocent until proven guilty doesn't mean only if it takes longer than 5
minutes to prove. It means you _start_ with the presumption of innocence.

~~~
mcphage
> Innocent until proven guilty doesn't mean only if it takes longer than 5
> minutes to prove. It means you start with the presumption of innocence.

Innocent until proven guilty does _not_ mean police aren't allowed to
investigate crimes. And it does _not_ mean they are't allowed to detain
subjects.

~~~
dahart
Your first sentence is correct, you're right there. But it _does_ mean they're
not allowed to point weapons at people and threaten violence without probable
cause or reasonable suspicion of criminal activity. That's what presumption of
innocence means, you treat innocent people like they're innocent. Pulling a
taser on someone is not presumption of innocence, that's presumption of guilt.

Police are allowed to investigate, and that's exactly what they failed to do
in this case. They should have done some basic investigation before they drew
weapons and detained someone. The fact that they didn't investigate, and
didn't attempt to find probable cause, is precisely why what they did was
illegal.

Your second sentence isn't right. It is not legal in the US to detain people
for no reason. Arbitrary stop-and-frisks are illegal, arbitrary traffic stops
are illegal, arbitrary searches are illegal. That is precisely what the 4th
amendment is saying - you have a right to privacy and a right to not be
harassed by police without them having a specific reason. And those things are
illegal even when weapons aren't involved, but when police draw weapons
without reason, it crosses another line.

I'm really not sure why you're still defending the actions of the police, who
clearly did something wrong in this case, and dismissing the experience of a
citizen who did absolutely nothing wrong and was threatened. What would you
do, and how would you feel, if you were surprised and stormed by police and
detained with weapons pointed at you while you were minding your own business?
Do you want that to be allowed and normal? We've already decided as a country
we don't want that. I don't want it, and I think you don't either. So why are
you arguing?

~~~
mcphage
> I'm really not sure why you're still defending the actions of the police,
> who clearly did something wrong in this case, and dismissing the experience
> of a citizen who did absolutely nothing wrong and was threatened.

Because I don't think it's clear (or even true) that the police did something
wrong in this case. A crime occurred, through their investigation they
believed the author to be a suspect, they investigated him and found out he
was not.

> What would you do, and how would you feel, if you were surprised and stormed
> by police and detained with weapons pointed at you while you were minding
> your own business?

Obviously it would suck—but that doesn't mean that the police aren't allowed
to do that.

> Do you want that to be allowed and normal?

Do I want police to be able to investigate crimes? Yes, I do want that.

> So why are you arguing?

Because this article jumps from "this thing happened to me and it sucks", to
"this thing should not be allowed to happen".

~~~
dahart
Okay, I understand where you're coming from. The police should be allowed to
do their jobs, and I don't think the article is claiming otherwise, nor am I.

"This should not be allowed to happen" isn't saying the police can't
investigate. The "this" that's being discussed is whether they should be able
to storm the situation SWAT style with weapons drawn, not whether they should
attempt to locate a perp, verify stolen property, or do the proper paperwork.

The problem I have with your argument is that you're glossing over the threat
of violence and use of weapons. You're calling that "investigate" and painting
it as something demure. I don't feel like you're being completely honest by
insisting on calling it "investigate". Drawing weapons is not an
investigation, that's a detainment of a suspect. The investigation could have
happened another way, it could have involved asking first, it could have
involved checking the serial numbers they already had access to, it could have
involved everything without the taser, it could have been conducted in
private, the police could have announced their intentions and their names and
not tried so hard to scare the guy into submission.

Regardless of what the article said, and whether you like it or not, "this"
already isn't allowed to happen under the law, it's just not enforced much.
The law is already clear that police can't pull a weapon on someone or detain
them unless they have reason to believe that specific person was involved in a
crime. We already decided this, it's a done deal. So the article is right, it
should not be allowed to happen this way.

------
troncheadle
Yeesh. I know I would react badly to having a weapon pointed at me by someone
who is not in uniform. I hate hearing that this stuff is becoming more
commonplace because I know if it happens to me I'll react badly and it will be
my own fault when I end up dead or in jail. I guess now I have a super
compelling reason to practice more mindfulness.

------
fucking_tragedy
If this can happen over a stolen laptop, we have given the police too much
power, resources and authority, and too little training, education and
accountability.

They are essentially armed goons for those with property and the right
complexion.

The people responsible for these actions make upwards of $180k a year and will
suffer no repercussions for their actions. Let that sink in.

~~~
bonestamp2
I generally agree with you and I'm generally very critical of the police and I
think they handled this very poorly, but I don't think we know enough to say
they shouldn't have been involved at all. If Derek is telling the truth that
his stolen laptop with lots of personal information on it has turned his life
into a movie then it sounds like there is a lot more to know.

~~~
TheCoelacanth
It's okay for them to have been involved, but it certainly wasn't okay for
them to use violence in this situation. A taser is a potentially deadly
weapon; it should only be used in response to deadly force not simply because
someone is suspected of theft.

~~~
bonestamp2
I completely agree. Like I said, they handled it very poorly. But OP made it
sound like they shouldn't have even been involved and I don't know that part
is true.

------
krapp
The current title ("Cops Cuffed Me for Selling My Own Mac") makes it seem as
if the police were perfectly aware that the suspect was trying to sell his own
property and just decided to harass him anyway.

Rather, it appears the cops didn't "cuff him for selling his own Mac", they
cuffed him because they believed it _wasn 't_ his Mac to sell.

Is it too late to ask for a more neutral title?

------
somecoder
Unfortunate. And scary.

What's a C-number?

~~~
coldcode
Serial number on MacbookPros start with a C, mine does at least.

~~~
zodPod
In the article, the guy seemed to believe that it wasn't the serial number.
That it was something you had to turn the computer on for or something.

> Derek tells the woman the C-number is off. Not the serial number—they were
> looking for some other number in the computer.

~~~
teh_klev
I don't know Macs, but dell tag numbers are burned into the BIOS. Possibly
checking that instead of a sticker that could have a fake serial is a more
reliable method of verifying the number. i.e. your less than technically
competent thief might not know about this or how to change the BIOS one.

------
imjk
When I had my laptop stolen in Miami, I couldn't even get the lazy police
officers to write up a police report for me.

------
matwood
IANAL, but why is a warrant not required to detain him and search his
property?

~~~
theandrewbailey
To the police, this was a sting. I'm not sure, but maybe warrants aren't
needed for those? The "suspect" willingly allowed the property to be searched
(drive attached and booted). The police overreacted, and according to Derek,
ignored the plan and substituted their own. There's no detail on how Derek was
robbed, but if it was more of a mugging, the police would consider any suspect
"armed and dangerous" in ANY context.

------
ommunist
This is how careers in police are made these days.

------
known
> The architecture student is the son of Goldie Taylor, a political
> commentator and editor-at-large for The Daily Beast

------
loeg
[https://github.com/mark](https://github.com/mark)

And yet, he is a white male. It's a mindset problem where you project your
experiences on everyone else.

~~~
dang
Please don't invoke someone's personal details here to make a point in an
argument. That's a significant breach of civility, and this argument is
already uncivil.

We detached this subthread from
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11715005](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11715005)
and marked it off-topic.

~~~
loeg
Sorry. searine is really missing the point, though.

------
UVB-76
_> My dad had given me his extra computer, so I decided to sell mine: a
14-inch, 2012 MacBook Pro._

Perhaps the cops were going after him for false advertising...

Edit: A point made in jest, but in all seriousness, if he had actually
advertised it as a 14-inch model, it would add to a reasonable suspicion that
the laptop was not his.

You see this all the time with stolen bicycles advertised online. You can spot
the stolen ones a mile off, because the seller doesn't have a clue what it is
they are selling.

