
US teen died after drinking caffeine too quickly, coroner says - sonabinu
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-39932366
======
iambateman
Randomly, this happened in the county where I live.

But more pertinently, this seems like a horrible fluke. One time my dad, a
chaplain, was called to a scene where a girl was hit in the chest by a tennis
ball and killed. The ball stopped her heart. Crazy accidents happen, but that
doesn't mean caffeine is suddenly the silent killer.

Very sad though.

~~~
psyc
Exactly. How many times have you heard of a person dying from caffeine? It's
very unusual for _any given person_ to have a fatal reaction to some drug.
It's not at all unexpected for 1 person out of a billion to have a fatal
reaction to some drug.

~~~
astrodust
Depends on how much of a rockstar you are. Dave Grohl was famously
hospitalized for drinking way too much coffee:
[http://www.nme.com/news/music/them-crooked-
vultures-14-12945...](http://www.nme.com/news/music/them-crooked-
vultures-14-1294541)

He had a conversation with his doctor about it that went something like "So
how many cups of coffee do you have a day?" and his answer was "How many cups
are in a pot? Because I drink like five of those..."

------
fb03
The article says the teenager had no pre-existent medical (cardiac) condition.
Question is : Could it be an undiagnosed, latent condition? The kid was really
young and it's not usual to have teenagers do heart check-ups etc.

~~~
tyingq
This story is confusing to me. There are even studies where previous heart
failure patients were given acute high doses of caffeine with no adverse
effects.
[http://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamainternalmedicine/article...](http://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamainternalmedicine/article-
abstract/2569283)

------
fabian2k
The link to caffeine seems rather tenuous, given the low dose of around 0.5 g
mentioned in the article. In another incident someone was given 30 g of
caffeine and they survived ([https://www.theguardian.com/uk-
news/2017/jan/25/students-caf...](https://www.theguardian.com/uk-
news/2017/jan/25/students-caffeine-newcastle-crown-court-northumbria)), and
the same article mentions a reported death at 18 g of caffeine.

I can't really see how the causality is established from the article between
the caffeine and the death.

~~~
giarc
I wonder if the deceased had an underlying, diagnosed heart condition as well.

~~~
karmajunkie
The article mentions that he had no preexisting heart condition.

~~~
trendia
that they knew of. I doubt that most teens with underlying heart conditions
(like atrial fib) go to a cardio center.

~~~
6nf
They did an autopsy, this is the coroner's report. He would have checked for
heart conditions.

------
notacoward
Like many others here, I consume more caffeine than this on a regular basis.
I'll bet many of this kid's fellow students do too. Wouldn't be surprised if
his parents and the coroner also fit that description. So it's not _just_ the
caffeine intake that's involved here. Possible factors:

* Latent undiagnosed medical condition or unusual sensitivity

* Dehydration or intense exercise

* Potentiating effect from some other ingredient, or somethig else he had consumed

* Other substances that might have shown up on a proper toxicology scan (mention of which is notably absent from this story)

Without addressing these alternate hypotheses, "it was the caffeine" is
premature and a bit irresponsible.

------
vivekd
A lot of people are questioning the coroners conclusions because they don't
believe that the dose could be harmful. But he makes it clear that the issue
is not the dose but the speed at which the drinks were consumed:

>"We're not saying that it was the total amount of caffeine in the system, it
was just the way that it was ingested over that short period of time, and the
chugging of the energy drink at the end was what the issue was with the
cardiac arrhythmia."

Energy drinks weren't all that popular until recently, we we can expect that
we are only now going to see the effects of high levels of caffeine intake on
the general population.

------
obstinate
Caffeine's ld50 is estimated to be 80-100 cups of coffee worth in a single
sitting, more if any time is given to eliminate some of it. Seems like the kid
just got incredibly unlucky or had some sort of latent sensitivity.

------
staticelf
People have been drinking coffee for ages, if caffeine would be so dangerous
wouldn't it be very clear by massive evidence?

Me and basically every friend I have exceeded this intake several times.

~~~
nv-vn
Caffeine is dangerous in a way. It's very addictive and lethal at relatively
low doses. Not everyone experiences lethal effects at the same dose: "The LD50
of caffeine in humans is dependent on individual sensitivity, but is estimated
to be about 150 to 200 milligrams per kilogram of body mass or roughly 80 to
100 cups of coffee for an average adult." Maybe this teen had some condition
before hand/was taking other medicines? I guess if they were very thin that
might do it?

~~~
Leszek
> relatively low doses

> roughly 80 to 100 cups of coffee

You and I have different definitions of "low dose".

~~~
douche
That would also be well over the volume of pure water that can also cause
death by water intoxication - see the "Hold your Wee for a Wii" incident.

~~~
davidddavidson
Assuming the caffeine was delivered in liquid form (in coffee, energy drinks,
sodas, etc). It would be fairly easy to exceed lethal dosage via caffeine in
tablets, powder, or capsule form.

------
sb8244
A bit of an aside: I cut caffeine out 8 months ago except for the occasional
caffeinated coffee or coke. Felt great after the first week, even, and haven't
looked back since.

~~~
Eyas
I genuinely don't follow: "Cut caffeine ... except for the occasional
caffeinated coffee" \-- what does that leave? Do you mean you just reduced
your coffee intake?

~~~
sb8244
adenadel is correct. I am a coffee snob and will pour over or brew espresso
every day. However, I switched out caffeinated coffee for decaf for all of the
6 months and have recently been tempted by some new beans. I'm really into
trying different origins and roasters, which makes doing decaf hard over time.

I probably do < 1 caffeinated beverage per week on average, and never drip
coffee due to the caffeine content. Lately I've been having a bit more as I
experiment re-introducing it with L-Theanine.

The biggest reason I cut it out initially is a type of heartburn that I
couldn't explain the source of. It vanished once I cut caffeine.

~~~
Eyas
Cool. Yeah-- I've had various stints with going with decaf instead, but
(somewhat like you) the wider selection always pulled me back.

------
gwbas1c
I doubt it was purely caffeine. The last time I consumed a small energy drink,
I had heart palpitations. Pure caffeine (from No-Doze) doesn't give me heart
palpitations; but energy drinks contain more than just caffeine.

------
bluesign
The LD50 of caffeine in humans is dependent on individual sensitivity, but is
estimated to be about 150 to 200 milligrams per kilogram of body mass or
roughly 80 to 100 cups of coffee for an average adult.

------
rgbrenner
"may have consumed about 470mg of caffeine in just under two hours"

I find it hard to believe that caused a problem for a 200lb person. I'm 150
and drink more than that every morning and have for years (2/3rds or a full
pot, big cup, it's gone pretty quickly--like 1.5 hours). I also pretty
regularly will drink 3 or 4 (150mg/ea) venti lattes in a couple of hours. As
far as I can tell, I'm still alive.

~~~
ceejayoz
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drug_tolerance](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drug_tolerance)

~~~
tantalor
Tolerance generally does not affect the lethality of a drug.

~~~
ceejayoz
Hospice patients on morphine would strongly disagree.

[http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/562216_3](http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/562216_3)

> Pharmacokinetic changes occur, for example, if the drug up-regulates the
> activity of a metabolic process that represents a major pathway for its
> elimination from the body. Enzyme induction results in a gradual reduction
> in plasma drug concentration while the daily opioid dose remains unchanged.

------
Taylor_OD
I never drank caffeine until college, got hooked on it for the last 5 years or
so, just stopped using it last week. I feel great now. If you don't drink
coffee for pleasure and only for the caffeine it's worth trying life without
it.

~~~
juandazapata
You have to stop the caffeine intake for 2 weeks every 2 months, otherwise the
adenosine receptors adapt and you won't feel the same effects.

~~~
sevensor
I find it's worse than that. I still get the nervousness and eyelid twitches,
but not the sharper focus. That's when I know it's time to cut back.

~~~
matt_wulfeck
Is everybody really drinking coffee to become super workers? I think it tastes
great and is nice to sip. It provides a _distraction_ from my screen. I don't
even know if I'd notice its decaf.

~~~
whicks
I can't tell if this is sarcasm or not, but I would go so far as to say that a
vast majority of people have coffee (or another source of caffeine) in an
attempt to boost their productivity.

~~~
matt_wulfeck
It wasn't sarcasm. I was surprised that most of the coffee drinkers here were
commenting about it in regards to productivity. I actually thought most people
were like me and drink it for the flavor, provided distraction, therapeutic
feelings it invokes, etc, along with productivity.

In fact, sitting my back yard and sipping a nice, warm cup of coffee is just
about one of my favorites Saturday rituals, and I have no plans to be
productive that day. Coffee is just... pleasant!

------
sonabinu
Interesting how this story suddenly disappeared from the front page of hacker
news.

------
Neliquat
This is not passing the smell test. I, and many familiars, have greatly
exceeded this kids intake. There has to be something else going on here. The
media FUD surrounding this is deafening.

~~~
TillE
A lot of things can be triggers for undiagnosed heart conditions.

~~~
DamonHD
It turned out that "running to the river carrying a boat on your head"
triggered my then 18-year-old brother's undiagnosed heart condition.

The fact that he was otherwise fit as an ox and his friend knew how to do CPR,
meant that after a multiple bypass op he was back riding a bike in a few
weeks, and has since turned out fine as a patent lawyer ... oh wait ....

------
tptacek
_" We're not trying to speak out totally against caffeine," Mr Watts said. "We
believe people need to pay attention to their caffeine intake and how they do
it, just as they do with alcohol or cigarettes."_

What.

~~~
KyeRussell
What's not to understand?

~~~
dionidium
For starters, alcohol and tobacco are _massive_ killers, two of the biggest
known, responsible for millions of deaths worldwide each year (and hundreds of
thousands in the U.S. alone).

Mentioning coffee alongside these other two is patently ridiculous.

[https://www.niaaa.nih.gov/alcohol-health/overview-alcohol-
co...](https://www.niaaa.nih.gov/alcohol-health/overview-alcohol-
consumption/alcohol-facts-and-statistics)

[https://www.cdc.gov/tobacco/data_statistics/fact_sheets/fast...](https://www.cdc.gov/tobacco/data_statistics/fact_sheets/fast_facts/)

~~~
fivestar
Yes! I can't get over how people can think "smoking bad" but "alcohol ok".
Alcohol is a fuel. Do you drink gasoline?

"But muh beers..."

