
Momentum Builds Against N.S.A. Surveillance - tippytop
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/29/us/politics/momentum-builds-against-nsa-surveillance.html
======
antoko
_...who is rallying an increasingly unified Democratic caucus to his side, as
well as 61 House Democrats who voted no on Wednesday but are now publicly
signaling their discontent._

That's HUGE. Does anyone have any more details on this?

The tone of the whole article seems to indicate that change is inevitable. We
need to stay vigilant and make sure the changes aren't just window-dressing.

~~~
danso
I'm surprised people find this hard to believe. It's less than 2 years after
the defeat of SOPA, a bill that enjoyed incredible, nearly unprecedented
bipartisan support and in the end, after the blackout, faced massive,
unprecedented bipartisan opposition and retreat.

Politicians may be slow, but they'll respond to momentum.

~~~
SCAQTony
Respectfully, I don't believe the momentum angle; I believe in the tipping
point premise whereas Snowden became the human face for this continuing
failure of the republic.

It's my belief that skilled politicians equate the Edward Snowden revelations
and the fears he has of losing his life to that of the "rape of Lucretia" in
Ancient Rome. (The rape and suicide of Lucretia toppled the monarchy in Rome
and brought in the Republic.)

60-minutes, Wired Magazine, the New York Times have been talking about Patriot
Act abuses and even the signing of the NDAA which gave Obama the right to
imprison anyone without a lawyer or the right to trial. It also gave him the
right to drone-kill anyone if so desired.

All of this has gone over the public's head because a real life example wasn't
involved - BUT - when Edward Snowden, a real person said, "I may be killed for
telling you all of this" and then abandoned a sweet paycheck because he
couldn't live with myself if he didn't that got people's attention much like
the aforementioned rape and suicide of Lucretia in ancient Rome.

Just a thought.

~~~
griffordson
I've been watching the NSA story closely for years and I disagree. Snowden
provided documentation. Until now all the whistle-blowers who were telling the
same stories were easily dismissed because they couldn't provide solid
evidence. And the administration was able to confuse and mislead Congress by
assuring them that they were not doing anything more than a Grand Jury could
do during an investigation. The members of Congress who knew better were
either complicit or they were silenced by the rules covering classified
briefings (a weak excuse in my opinion.)

Granted, Snowden is an important part of the story, and he will be remembered
very favorably by history. But for people who are predisposed to buying the
administration's fear mongering, he has been easily dismissed and used as a
distraction in the short term.

~~~
nitid_name
I think Snowden's utility (in terms of historical significance) is in being
relatively hydrophobic to the mud that's been slung at him. The only thing
that's stuck (from what little I've seen of broadcast/print news reflected off
the people I know who consume it) is his failure in formalized education.

He's a good looking heteronormative guy with no criminal record nor obvious
sexual improprieties. He had nothing to gain from making the disclosure and
apparently quite a bit to lose.

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sologoub
And while this "momentum" builds, Sen. Feinstein (D-CA) engages in further
character assassination of Snowden: [http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/post-
politics/wp/2013/07...](http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/post-
politics/wp/2013/07/28/feinstein-suggests-snowden-might-have-given-info-to-
china-russia/)

~~~
jmspring
Many a Bay Area native is offended that Feinstein is one of our senators. The
sanctimonious blow hard is only out for one cause -- herself. Just google
conceal carry and feinstein. Not to mention, many hated her as mayor of SF.

I look forward to the day she is no longer "serving" the people of California.

~~~
mncolinlee
Put your money where your mouth is. Support a primary challenge against her.
If the challenge gets any real momentum at all, she will be forced to recant
and change her tone. Consider that the Tea Party actually beat several
decades-long Republicans in primary challenges and that our privacy is a
nearly universal concern among voters.

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a3n
There's really no danger for the NSA. If a law is passed prohibiting mass
surveillance, they'll just secretly reinterpret the law to say that it allows
mass surveillance.

~~~
danenania
This is very true and the reason that outrage and reform efforts need to focus
as intensely on the idea of secret courts and secret law ( _especially_ secret
law) as on the surveillance itself.

Say what you want about the "balance of security and civil liberties". Secret
law and democracy are plainly 100% incompatible and a third grader can
understand why. Secret law all but guarantees an eventual transition to
outright totalitarian fascism.

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mtgx
"The sudden reconsideration of post-Sept. 11 counterterrorism policy has taken
much of Washington by surprise"

It shouldn't have. But this is how these things happen. People don't act
immediately on them, even if they think differently. They just build and build
up frustration inside of them, while the politicians keep stepping on them
more and more, growing ever more brave in doing that because they see no one
protests against their actions - until one the people day blow up and the move
seems "sudden".

Politicians should consider themselves lucky this is not a violent revolution
meant to overthrow the government, and they should fix the problem as soon as
they can.

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sixothree
If there is one thing I would most like to see changed it is this secrecy
required of companies compliant in this surveillance.

~~~
greenyoda
I'd also like to see an end to secret interpretations of laws by the executive
branch, secretly approved by the FISA court. If a law is passed by Congress,
its meaning should be clear, and known to the public.

And I'd also like to see the PATRIOT Act seriously scrutinized from the point
of view of civil liberties.

~~~
frostmatthew
I found it interesting that even the author of the Patriot Act (probably not a
huge friend of civil liberties) thinks the NSA is overstepping and said [how
they interpret the provision for collecting phone metadata] "got to be changed
… otherwise in a year or year and a half you're not going to have it any more"
[http://www.theatlanticwire.com/politics/2013/07/nsa-
admits-i...](http://www.theatlanticwire.com/politics/2013/07/nsa-admits-it-
analyzes-more-peoples-data-previously-revealed/67287/)

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codex
It's the case, historically, that civil liberties restrict during time of war
and expand again in peacetime. Lincoln suspending habeas corpus during the
Civil War, Espionage Act of 1917, Japanese American internment camps during
WWII, Smith Act, Subversive Activities Control Act, McCarthyism, etc.

Recent re-expansion has included the New York Times' successful defense of the
publication of The Pentagon Papers. I think we're seeing another example of
this here. 9/11-like attacks have not reoccured, and the public pendulum is
shifting back.

If no more significant terrorist attacks occur, eventually I predict that
significant portions of the Patriot Act will not be renewed. This is somewhat
like firing your gardner as unnecessary because you don't see any weeds in
your garden, but, even so, I suspect the Patriot Act is overkill.

~~~
gknoy
The difference is that now our war is not against a regime or distinct nation
of people, so how can we ever say that we have "won"? There will _always_ be
people that hate our country, and will be labeled as terrorists. Our
government can maintain on this pretext that we are in a state of emergency,
conceivably indefinitely.

I feel so cynical, and dearly hope that I will be proven wrong.

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joering2
Here is what I want and perhaps someone can code it, since I don't have enough
time on my hands right now.

I want a website where I can read about all politicians against PRISM/ deep
surveillance systems, and all those scumbags who voted this thing in, and
continue to go with it.

Then when it comes around next election, I want to go to this website, connect
my mailbox with it just like Facebook or LinkedIn ask me to, and send email to
EVERY CONTACT from my mailbox as of WHY they should not vote on those people
with link to a nice page with description on each and every one of those
scumbags.

Go!

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nsh
Indian has its own set of cyber security is it somewhat the problem similar to
NSA and should Indians protest against it [http://www.techcrump.com/indian-
national-cyber-security-poli...](http://www.techcrump.com/indian-national-
cyber-security-policy-released/)

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D9u
We absolutely must be relentless with our complaints to our elected
representatives, as is our right, lest we lose them all.

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coldcode
The real issue isn't just the NSA but having a secret court than makes secret
laws we can't even be told about: this is what is fundamentally inconsistent
with a democracy (or republic).

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PhasmaFelis
Okay, does anyone have a Chrome plugin to bypass the NYT paywall? It's
annoying to have to open a Incognito window every damn time.

~~~
karcass
I use 'ghost incognito' [https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/ghost-
incognito/ge...](https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/ghost-
incognito/gedeaafllmnkkgbinfnleblcglamgebg)

