
Want to be an entrepreneur? Drop out of college. - dwynings
http://www.caterina.net/archive/001234.html
======
chegra84
I think advice like this should be taken lightly. This writer simply says look
at this or that, not realizing these guys are the exception, not the rule.
What worries me is she gives life changing decisions without any data to back
her approach.

Some data for you: 1\. 95.1% of entrepreneurs had a bachelor degree or higher
2\. 41.4% of entrepreneurs succeed on the first go (There goes the apprentice
argument) 3\. The average and median age of company founders in our sample
when they started their current companies was 40. The standard deviation for
this distribution was 7.7.

[http://www.kauffman.org/uploadedFiles/ResearchAndPolicy/TheS...](http://www.kauffman.org/uploadedFiles/ResearchAndPolicy/TheStudyOfEntrepreneurship/Anatomy%20of%20Entre%20071309_FINAL.pdf)

------
mechanician
I think correlation is being confused with causation. It is probably more that
intelligence and ambition are traits of great entrepreneurs, but are also
correlated with dropping out of college. In addition I bet that most people
who graduated from college do not regret the experience.

------
pg
I suspect it may not be so much that the kind of people who don't finish
college make good startup founders as that many other jobs filter them out.
But that may be changing. General Motors probably still cares if you have a
college degree, but I wouldn't be surprised if Facebook doesn't, so long as
you can hack.

~~~
puppetsock
The filtering phenomenon is obsolete; as you note, GM probably still cares
because it's old fashioned, but modern companies don't care at all. Even if
the filter exists/existed, that's hardly a sufficient or effective motivation
to start a startup -- good startup founders don't seem like the type who'd
just take a salaried gig and become complacent if it was offered to them.

There's probably some traits useful to startup founders that are more common
amongst dropouts than the general population -- like a willingness to take
responsibility for one's future into one's own hands.

~~~
prodigal_erik
If widespread filtering means a founder couldn't get a salaried gig long
enough to pay the bills and accumulate some savings, that's a worst-case
problem they need to be aware of. I keep hearing it really is rough out there
without a degree, but I started out with one so I don't actually know.

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sosuke
Ha! The title reminds me of an old Calvin & Hobbes comic, Calvin is talking
about Einstein getting bad grades and he says something like "you heard
Einstein got bad grades in school? well mine are even worse!"

I don't think not attending college was good or bad for me but I'm going to do
what I can with what I've got.

~~~
jimmyjim
Sorry to nit-pick, but Einstein doing poorly in his earlier education is a
myth.
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_Einstein#Early_life_and_...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_Einstein#Early_life_and_education)

("In 1889 Max Talmud (later changed to Max Talmey) introduced the ten-year old
Einstein to key texts in science, mathematics and philosophy, including Kant’s
Critique of Pure Reason and Euclid’s Elements" -- my goodness, Kant's critique
when he was _ten_?)

------
jmillerinc
Classic selection bias. The dropout founders of Apple, Twitter, and Facebook
need to be balanced against dropout founders whose companies failed. Of
course, we have no idea who they are and so it's difficult to point to
examples.

------
jmm
I'm often amazed at how cavalierly advice like this is given. We're talking
about a major (yes, major) decision here.

And the logic... drop out of college because a handful of very smart
entrepreneurs were able to start successful businesses without their degree?
Come on. Let's count the successful college graduates who have made it big AND
the college drop-outs who have tried and failed (and double count the ones
that never went back; yikes, hard to count). Or let's make it conditional, "if
you know you're of Bill Gates' stature and timing is of the essence, sure,
drop out. If not, get the piece of paper you've already put time and money
towards (and have fun!). Then start your business."

But at least they're putting their money where their mouth is via investments.
I'd be curious, though, whether the drop-outs they're funding are recent drop-
outs, or whether the founders cut their teeth elsewhere before starting their
current venture. If the latter, the advice perhaps becomes, "drop out of
college to get a job at a start-up and maybe start your own business later."
Which leads us to the obliging question to Fred and Caterina (and everyone
else in tech) - how many young non-grads have they hired recently in their own
companies or portfolio companies.

~~~
JoeAltmaier
Read Outliers by Malcolm Gladwell - Mssrs Dell, Gates and Jobs are all the
same guy, largely social forces put them where they are.

~~~
jmm
Huh? First off, I'm not really into Malcolm Gladwell. Second, what are you
replying to anyway? The general point that anything one does matters?

------
kevinh
On the other hand, look at Brad Fitzpatrick. He managed to successfully run
LiveJournal while enrolled in college (full-time I believe) and said he
wouldn't have done it any other way if he had the chance.

~~~
bryanh
This is more or less the route I've been taking (though I'm short on the type
of success Brad has had). I rather like it. I feel like I'm learning a lot
more when both lifestyles collide.

~~~
yesimahuman
I also have to admit that college has really been an enlightening experience
even though the work was tough (I graduate in a few weeks). I'm so glad I
went, even if I've been distracted the last year on my business.

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brazzy
Sounds like burning bridges. "Want to do something hard that few people
succeed at? Eliminate your alternatives so you have no other choice than to
keep going!"

~~~
r0s
Well you have to make a choice to some degree.

If you postpone school till you're 40 the job market might not accept you. If
you don't attempt your startup while young you might not have the energy.

------
jaekwon
Entrepreneurship is a compulsion, not a want.

I think you find the spark and _become_ an entrepreneur when you stop
"searching" for something, but begin reacting intelligently to your future
customers.

You don't need to drop out of college if the college demographic is a good
demographic for your next product.

------
huntero
I think that college is the perfect time to be an entrepreneur. Any typical
college class schedule leaves students with a fair amount of free time. If you
want to start something, it's a lot easier to find time while in college than
once you are out and having to support a "real life". Essentially, you have
nothing to lose.

Additionally, you are surrounded by other smart people who are in the same
"nothing-to-lose" situation. Grab and friend and make something great! The
opportunity to go to class and learn something new is secondary to the people
you meet.

------
jorgecastillo
<sarcasm>

Awesome advice everyone should follow it. Just imagine how much more start-ups
(future corporations) we would have since "1 college drop out = 1 kick ass
entrepreneur".

<sarcasm>

------
chromacoders
I think the better model is to hang around a college and meet the interesting
folks...without enrolling in classes and having to go into heavy debt. Spend
your days on your startup...and your nights meeting/talking to interesting
potential co-founders.

The other important thing is the mindset shift...from having to validate your
learning by an authority figure to being able to trust yourself to learn
things.

------
maqr
> You put in a student and out comes a scholar.

This seems generous.

------
jasonlbaptiste
Been there, done that. Advice: if you're dead set on your company, go focus on
that. You can always go back. If not? Use college as a time to learn new
things and find similar minded people. Also fill the gaps in your weaknesses.

------
dfield
This topic comes up on HN every few months and never fails to create a lively
debate. As a (potential) future entrepreneur / freshman in college, I've gone
back and forth a few times about whether I should continue my education. Here
are the conclusions I've made:

(FYI - I'm probably just reiterating what others have said, but I'm lazy and
don't want to properly cite by finding all the "should you go to college" blog
posts / comments...)

0\. Staying in school doesn't hurt. College is a four year block of time where
you are encouraged and expected to experiment with every aspect of your life.
This experimental space can't be found anywhere else. (The financial aspect is
a different story; if going to college puts you in a huge amount of debt, this
point may not be true.)

1\. Know that you can always dropout. I take comfort in this fact. If I come
across a life-changing opportunity, I can always just postpone college.

2\. Theory != Practice. When I first started studying CS at school, I was
peeved that professors didn't optimize code as much as possible. Why should I
disregard the constant for a linear time algorithm? However, I've since come
to appreciate the generality of this method of thinking. Thinking generally
about specific problems is (to me, at least) a valuable skill to have and one
that I need to work on.

3\. It's not about the classes, it's about the people. This is an old but
important argument and it's completely valid. You'll learn way more from your
classmates than you will from your professors. It doesn't matter how great of
a coder you are... if you don't learn social skills you'll be a terrible
entrepreneur.

4\. Professors are really smart. At any decent university, you'll have access
to a group of people who have spent their entire careers being clever. Most
are more than happy to explain their work / mentor an interested student / try
to impart some cleverness.

5\. A three-month summer. The fact that summers are exactly three-months is a
good thing. If they were longer, students might not return from really
wonderful jobs. If they were shorter, students wouldn't be exposed to jobs
long enough. By taking full advantage of summers, you can "job hop" and sample
careers / businesses in a way that would be otherwise frowned upon. I've
learned a lot about how I would create company culture by working at different
companies, and I still have three more summers to keep learning.

6\. Keeping relevant paths open. Entrepreneurship has always sounded
attractive to me, but I'm curious about a lot of things. I'd rather be
positive about the career path I choose than always wonder if I should have
done something else with my life. By trying out research / acting / underwater
basket weaving now, I can either decide certain professions aren't for me or
find a way to incorporate them into my eventual line of work.

7\. Recruitment. From a purely economic, slightly perverse perspective,
college is a great place to recruit for a future startup.

~~~
hga
" _college is a great place to recruit for a future startup_ "

Indeed. I've seen this in several startups, and saved LMI in 1983 by
recruiting a fantastic engineer who was just graduating. He'd built a baby
Lisp Machine for his 6.111 final project and finished the design and debugging
of LMI's first in-house designed machine (something Greenblatt and the physics
graduate he'd hired to do the digital design weren't capable of).

And it's worth pointing out that he learned the skills necessary to do this by
finishing his formal education.

------
mcculley
I'm an entrepreneur and a college dropout. One reason I'm an entrepreneur is
that, lacking a formal education and degree, I had fewer options within big
tech companies. While I'm completely happy with my own career trajectory, I
advise young folks to finish their degree so that they have more options.

I really think the article and the general sentiment of romanticizing the drop
out entrepreneur does a disservice to young people.

------
rjurney
On the flip side, the best thing you could do for your entrepreneurial career
at 18 is to go to Stanford.

~~~
JoeAltmaier
Did that, working on my 5th startup, 3 were bought out (by Unisys, Screaming
Media, Dell). Works pretty good.

------
avk
If only there were schools that encouraged entrepreneurship while broadening
your horizons with more smart, interesting people than you might ever meet
again...

~~~
JoeAltmaier
Stanford

------
ojbyrne
At college you might learn the phrase "anecdotal evidence."

------
lovskogen
I found out why I'm not in college. It's not the "learn", but the "must lear".

------
xiaoma
Apparently, dropping out of grad school also works well.

------
TotlolRon
Want to be an entrepreneur? Be an entrepreneur! Want to be a college dropout?
Drop out of college!

Me think, education and entrepreneurship are not, and should not be presented
as, mutually exclusive.

~~~
dfield
I think you're right, but in my opinion they don't overlap very well either. A
startup is _very_ unlikely to succeed without complete devotion and it's very
hard to take the most rigorous classes while working >20 hours a week.

~~~
stingraycharles
Who says you can't start a startup after completing college?

~~~
r0s
Sally Mae?

~~~
telemachos
Or, pick another college. I attended a school in the City University of New
York system. When I started it cost around $700 a year (yes, you read
correctly). By the end, even with a massive increase in tuition (by
percentage), it cost around $1400. I worked part-time all the way through,
lived at home and went off to graduate school debt free. I also got an
excellent education. State by state and city by city, I'm sure the quality of
public colleges varies, but many local systems are quite good.

------
ilkhd2
My answer: Google. Drastically different from all the companies created by
entrepreneurs mentioned in the article. (The difference is that Google is
truly innovative - built on a very original idea of PageRank, while neither
MS, nore FaceBook, nor even Apple invented anything new). Why? May be because
the founders are not dropouts?

Now if you want to be drug addict - be a college dropout. The best addicts I
know are dropouts. Do you want to be a crank - be a college dropout. The best
cranks I know are dropouts.

~~~
pgbovine
_built on a very original idea of PageRank_

careful about this slippery slope ... it's rare for something to be 'very
original'. PageRank is based on well-known academic research by Jon Kleinberg
and others on graph reputation algorithms ... of course, the application to
web search and wonderful execution was what made Google's start possible. You
could argue that MS, Facebook, Apple, etc. also innovated greatly on existing
technologies and created something 'very original'.

~~~
ilkhd2
To understand the scientific paper, nonetheless you need to have a degree.
Even to know about its very existence, you would still need a degree.

~~~
pgbovine
i totally agree ... if larry page hadn't been in a Ph.D. program, he would've
likely not gotten exposed to that sort of research, especially because back in
the early 1990's, it was _much_ harder for people to get access to or even
knowledge about research papers (you couldn't just, ummm, Google for them!)

------
drew__
Yet this came up on HN (again). Why?

What do people here really want to talk about? It's surely not Caterina!

Damn. I'm (almost) tempted to sign up (again) just to be able to talk smack.
Actually, I just deleted a whole crapload of incendiary junk. Um. Me sad now.

Yeah, so I got an account (again). Grrrr.

