
Let’s help Airbnb rebuild the bridge it just burned - emhart
http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/doc/2013/05/28/lets-help-airbnb-rebuild-the-bridge-it-just-burned/
======
graue
Interesting to read about the story behind this. I recently tried to use
Airbnb to get a last minute spot in Boston. The most annoying part of the ID
process was that it acted like everything was cool, let me browse the site,
let me make a reservation and put in my credit card info, and only _then_ told
me to give them tons of extra info before they would process the reservation.

I actually tried to go through their process and it was quite draconian. They
ask for tons of stuff. Last 4 of SSN was one part, and they also asked
questions about streets I lived on years ago, specifically, which county those
streets are in. They must have a contract with someone who has a database of
this kind of stuff.

But I got through that and was hung up on the last step, "Online ID", which
requires a Facebook account (don't use it under my real last name), LinkedIn
account (don't have one), or recording an introduction video (not possible
while I'm sitting in a busy coffeeshop, also seemed like a pretty absurd ask).
At this point I wanted to bail out but there was no "Cancel Reservation"
button anywhere and they had my CC info hostage. So I had to close my whole
account.

By the way, this was an account I had previously used to book an Airbnb place
with no problems, and got a positive review from the guy. The surprise ID
requirements struck me as manipulative, as if they knew if they'd asked for
all this stuff _before_ I booked a night, I wouldn't have used their site. So
they pretended they were going to hook me up with a room, then sprung this out
of nowhere.

~~~
jrockway
The "creepy questions" are a pretty standard identity verification scheme. If
you ever open a bank or brokerage account online, you'll probably be asked
these. They're used because they're simple and work reasonably well. Anyone
can steal or guess the last four digits of your SSN or driver's license, but
it's harder to learn random details of your life.

(Then again, I recently answered the creepy questions for a friend of mine, so
it's not protection against someone you know stealing your identity.)

I don't know why Airbnb needs to know your identity, but I could come up with
some reasons. Imagine someone signs up under your name as a host, and their
first guests have their laptops stolen. _Your_ name is going to appear on that
police report, and that's a pain for you. If the whole fake identity scam can
be nipped in the bud, though, this won't happen as often, making life easier
for more than just Airbnb's users. I don't think that's a terrible thing.

In a business where you're having total strangers stay in your house, is it
really an invasion of privacy to ask you to verify you are who you say you
are? This isn't an online blogging service or something, after all.

~~~
bm98
The "creepy questions" -- in the USA at least -- are just another revenue
stream for the three credit reporting agencies. They (or third party companies
paying them for the data) pull data from your credit report and then ask
multiple-choice questions based on the data. It's absurdly insecure given the
large number of people who have subscription access to credit reports
(landlords, car dealerships, employers, etc.). Even more ridiculous is that
the questions are based on data that is often false. A scammer who applies for
a credit card in your name provides a false address; that false address is
added to your credit report and now can become part of the identity
verification scheme. And of course the onus is on _you_ to fix the bad data
held by these companies.

~~~
dman
I recently failed such an authentication. The system had bad data about
someone they thought was my relative even though I have no relative by that
name. I was asked three different questions about this "relative" and on all
three said I dont know anyone by that name. In the end the agent administering
the test told me I had failed the self identification. I was eventually able
to talk her into putting in a manual override but the whole experience was
disconcerting.

------
onemorepassword
Airbnb's concept, however wonderful it may be when it does work, is full of
practical and legal holes which are now beginning to emerge.

The big question is: can Airbnb close those holes without significantly
reducing the usefulness of their service?

I very much doubt that. Hospitality is an industry with a long history, lots
of regulation and self-regulation (which is _not_ just corrupt government
protecting incumbents), and disrupting that means tackling a huge range of
issues an liabilities which Airbnb heavily oversimplifies.

I expect an increase in regulatory intervention, horror-stories in the media,
lawsuits and Airbnb becoming increasingly more bureaucratic and complex in an
effort to handle that.

~~~
onemorepassword
I wonder what part of this comment was a reason to slowban me?

------
rurounijones
I love the usual weaselly worded "We apologize if our changes caused you
distress" automated response to her second email.

That kind of corporate lingo is what I expect from soulless corporations.

[EDIT]

To make it clear. She offered lots of suggestions on what other services they
could use and instead of a personal "Thanks for that, we will investigate"
they gave her the brush-off with an obviously automated email.

Pretty shoddy customer relations.

~~~
hkmurakami
Wasn't Airbnb the company where the founders took a special dividend using
funds from one of the later VC rounds (which Ron Conway publicly objected to)?

That sounds like something leaders of soulless corporations would do.

~~~
kiyoto
No, it was Chamath who called them out (They later reconciled).
[http://allthingsd.com/20111001/vcs-unite-chamath-
palihapitiy...](http://allthingsd.com/20111001/vcs-unite-chamath-palihapitiya-
decries-airbnbs-recent-112m-funding-for-excessive-founder-control-and-cashout-
in-email/) and [http://allthingsd.com/20111002/airbnb-investor-chamath-
palih...](http://allthingsd.com/20111002/airbnb-investor-chamath-palihapitiya-
settle-differences-with-employees-to-get-liquidity/)

~~~
hkmurakami
Thx for the correction :)

Did not know that they arranged to give employees liquidity after the initial
news.

 _> Brian and I have spoken at length and based on our discussions, I’ve
learned some new items that have proven to me that everyone is paying serious
and thoughtful attention to the needs of all shareholders including employees.
Specifically, the company has developed a strategy about their next financing
round where all employees who have been with the company for some length of
time will participate in a structured liquidity program. While the details
haven’t been finalized, I know Brian and completely trust that he will execute
on his commitment._

[http://allthingsd.com/20111002/airbnb-investor-chamath-
palih...](http://allthingsd.com/20111002/airbnb-investor-chamath-palihapitiya-
settle-differences-with-employees-to-get-liquidity/)

------
gamblor956
1) Why should we help a company valued at over $1 billion dig itself out of a
hole of its own making?

2) The primary complaint is that Verified ID reduces the number of bookings.
This is only a concern to people who are using AirBnB illegally-i.e., as an
unregistered hotel--and thus depend on volume. The people using AirBnB for its
proper purpose--occasional temporary "guests"--are largely unaffected by this.

~~~
unreal37
I like the tone of Doc's post. Very positive and solution focused.

As for #2, it remains to be seen I guess how much % drop in AirBNB bookings
are caused by this. It will be some number, but obviously I think they're
prepared for it. I don't think this has anything to do with "unregistered
hotels".

~~~
groundCode
I like the tone of Doc's post as well, however, as a consumer, I don't think
it's my problem to help a company out if they suck at serving their
customer.....and if I don my entrepreneurial hat, the more AirBNB annoy
people, the bigger the opportunity for a good competitor to pick up the
pieces.

------
danso
> _As a host, it is up to me to choose who I allow in my home. I like that I
> can decide how many requirements to place on my guests. Should I choose to
> place strict requirements, I get more protection and probably fewer
> bookings. I like having the choice. Airbnb just took the choice away from me
> and I’m not happy about it._

Before we get into arguments about the validity of libertarianism...I think it
shouldn't be shocking that when a company becomes large (with more at stake),
they have to act in ways that will be overbearing in comparison to what they
were before.

The quoted complaint above could easily apply to, let's say, the Apple iOS
store, in which decisions are made _heavily_ in favor of playing it safe and
clean. I would like to argue that I'm wise enough to make my own choices about
downloading immoral/unpleasant apps...and I'm entitled to make that argument.
However, I can't argue that this...ahem, proactive policy prevents a great
many shit-fests that might otherwise arise were it not in place. And I really
can't dispute that Apple so far been wildly successful in the app marketplace.

Likewise, from Airbnb's perspective, I can see why they've made the
calculation that proactively _preventing_ scammers is overall, a good business
decision. Because a few disasters from slightly foolish customers is enough to
doom the entire ship.

~~~
bradleyjg
How exactly does a LinkedIn or Facebook profile, much less a personal video,
prevent scammers? All three of those are trivial to fake. On the other hand a
public feedback system with persistent identities, _which they already have_
is harder to game.

No, this is a ham fisted marketing initiative pretending to be about security.
Why they didn't just buy 'likes' with coupons like every other scummy company
out there, I don't know.

~~~
lbarrow
It's actually not super easy to fake a Facebook or LinkedIn presence. Most
services that use social media presence as an identity check ask questions
like:

1\. How long has your account been active?

2\. Does your account have a human-like pattern of activity?

3\. Do your social graphs overlap realistically? Are you Facebook friends with
your LinkedIn connections?

Etc. It'd take an extremely patient scammer to fake that sort of data. It can
be done, of course, it's not trivial.

~~~
lessnonymous
My "Social Graph" between Facebook and LinkedIn is approximately 2. One is for
social networking, the other for professional. So if they think there's any
good to come from comparing the two, there's going to be a lot of people like
me for whom it Just Doesn't Work.

~~~
roel_v
More likely, there will be _a few_ people like you for whom it Just Doesn't
Work. Which is fine, as a company you need to decide on which customers you
want to take on, and outliers generally aren't worth the trouble (nothing
personal).

~~~
drharris
No, I think "a lot" is more accurate. I have only 3 crossovers. I do not FB
friend my coworkers, and I do not LinkedIn random FB friends. One is social,
one is professional, and I think quite a few people use it that way. Not all
of us consume social networking like a buffet.

~~~
roel_v
OK sorry if this reply sounds like I'm nerdraging, it's because I am - don't
take it personal, it happens so often here nowadays that sometimes I can't
hold it back any more.

Can we please please please stop with the 'anecdote of 1 = data' and 'I do it
like this and so do my friends (who are self-selected to be as much like me as
possible)' arguments. _It does not matter_ what _you_ do, nor does it matter
what you _think_. Businesses have much more data on this than the vast
majority of HN readers, and while it's nice to think that they're all stupid
in the 'I am so much smarter' sense, it is most likely not true. If Airbnb
had, over the course of testing their validation approach against the first
let's say 1000 users found out that the majority had little to no overlap in
their social graphs between social networks, do you think they would keep
using it this way? Clearly the answer is no, which leads to the prima facie
conclusion that your generalization of your own behavior to the population at
large is flat-out wrong. I'm not saying there is no way it could be that
indeed most people have little overlap, just that the evidence we have so far,
plus some reasonable thinking, points to the other conclusion.

Of course, if you do have (or can point to) _data_ (i.e., not anecdotes, not
'I think', but hard data, obtained in a methodologically sound way) to the
contrary, that would be a valuable addition to this discussion. All these "I
don't do it like that so it sucks!" replies are just noise, and that was (in a
passive-aggressive way) one of the underlying points in my reply.

~~~
jdbernard
Your argument is based on tenuous reasoning predicated on the assumption that
you know how the Airbnb people are thinking and how they intend to use the
data. The other argument is based on the assumption that there are probably
other people who use Facebook and LinkedIn in a similar fashion (I am another
data point). I do not see how your argument carries any more weight than
theirs. It certainly fails the hard evidence test you put forth.

------
gojomo
In the middle of a recent trip, AirBnB asked me for more verification info to
make a new reservation -- credit-report-based questions -- even though I'd
already...

(1) been a well-reviewed AirBnB guest on multiple occasions;

(2) concluded transactions through them on more than one CC for those previous
stays;

(3) linked my Facebook and LinkedIn profiles long ago.

Such verification questions can involve things like car loans from more than a
decade ago, and on at least one of the questions I wasn't even sure I
remembered the right answer.

Though I understand they have fraud concerns, I felt it kind of obnoxious to
spring this new requirement on me in the middle of a trip, when I was
depending on AirBnB working the same as before (and indeed as it had worked on
my 1st AirBnB reservation of the same trip).

Had I been required to send a scan of some government ID, I'd have felt even
more like they'd breached our prior understanding, without warning, at an
inconvenient time.

------
bambax
Requiring users to record an "introduction video" is beyond parody; next step
is probably to provide a front-and-back naked picture of yourself holding
today's newspaper.

And you thought DHS was bad! And you thought "regulations" were bad! Let's get
rid of it all! Let's _disrupt_!

But now, Facebook decides to police _jokes_ according to vague claims by
special-interest groups [1] and AirBnB requires its users to do a little dance
for them before they can use their services.

Democracy has a lot of flaws, but constitutional rights and democratically
voted laws, and a functioning judicial system, and well-run government
agencies (I know, I know) are several orders of magnitude preferable to petty
policies that grow in the mind of the average "community manager".

[1] [https://www.facebook.com/notes/facebook-
safety/controversial...](https://www.facebook.com/notes/facebook-
safety/controversial-harmful-and-hateful-speech-on-facebook/574430655911054)

------
nchuhoai
I am building a trust platform for p2p marketplaces
(<https://www.credport.org>) and while there have been many great points
mentioned in this thread, I'd like to chime in as well.

In general, most of the critics seem to say one of the two:

1\. I'm obviously trustworthy, just look at me.

2\. I want to have choice, I want to decide whether to host someone unverified
or not.

What people need to realize about trust in p2p marketplaces is that trust is
irrelevant, it's the experience that matters. At the end of the day, it
matters whether you get what you wanted, and if you didn't, well fuck, it must
be Airbnb's fault. It's never the users fault. Think about it.

On eBay, people get scammed every day. Does anyone say "well, that's just the
users fault"? No, everyone says "eBay is full of scammers, I will never do it
again". Same with the AppStores/Software Downloads. It's mostly the user's
fault for downloading malicious software, but the platform always gets blamed.

So what you do in this case, and what Airbnb is doing is to "clean" the
platform, cause the last thing you want is to have another Methlab incident or
become the next eBay

------
guard-of-terra
Airbnb is an inherently international business and there is no way this is
going to work for around the globe customers.

In many countries people don't use facebook. Linkedin is a joke anyway. Where
they do they're not used to authing with it. Where they don't you may use
local social networks but they're often anonymous or don't provide api as
rich. There is also this huge problem with languages: how are you going to
read korean id in hangeul? how are you going to link airbnb name in latin with
social network name in cyrillic? do you seriously expect people to be able to
record videos in english that can't then be used to ridicule that people
(they're going to be public, right?)

In many cultures people are just averse of posting private information about
them on the web.

~~~
CaptainZapp

      In many countries people don't use facebook
    

In my country people use Facebook just fine.

It's just that after Facebook more and more turned up the creepy volume to -
for me - intolerable levels I chose to "delete" my Facebook account and don't
plan to re-activate it ever again.

If your business relies on me having a Facebook account (or a specific piece
of hardware) then I guess I'm not in the range of your targeted customers and
we will never, ever do business together.

If you offer an (even more inconvenient) alternative I'm probably fine with
that. For example: If your mobile boarding pass doesn't work with my device
and I have to print it at an airport kiosk I'm fine with that. If I _must_
have an iPhone to fly with your airline then I guess it's just not meant that
we do business together.

~~~
guard-of-terra
That too. I've seen people annouce proudly they've left facebook, exactly the
audience AirBnB wishes to serve.

------
encoderer
Generally, I feel people are too cynical. And writing-off the Facebook and
LinkedIn integration as merely a ploy for access to your social graph at first
made my eyes roll.

But the truth is, there are a lot of things we do online that require real,
meaningful identity verification. You put your SSN and DOB in and the computer
gives you a series of multiple-choice questions from items on your credit
report. People are used to them. They work.

And at the least, why not offer the credit report ID verification as the
backup, perhaps alongside this video? Seems to me it would really cover their
bases: The free spirits who would sooner die than submit to a credit check can
produce a video. The professional, 2-million-miler, harvard-law types wouldn't
flinch at an identity check that they've done every time they opened a credit
card or bank account or many investment accounts or used the US Treasury or
IRS systems or a credit monitoring product or, the list goes on. There's just
a nominal cost associated with these, and unlike applications for credit they
do not impact a persons credit score.

I'm not sold, but _maybe_ there's something to the reliance on Facebook and
LinkedIn afterall?

~~~
s_baby
I have neither. What am I supposed to do?

~~~
mwfunk
Don't use a service that requires you to have one? Or make an account with one
of them so you can use a service that requires you to have one? Seems pretty
straightforward.

~~~
guard-of-terra
1) seems straightforward along with making them a bad name every time it comes
to discussion.

------
mbesto
Ah my friends, this is what happens when you reach scale. It means you have to
protect against every little black swan that comes along (mainly for PR
reasons) which overburdens the rest of the white swans.

This reminds me of all of the companies trying to compete against PayPal, who
tell themselves and customers that "We'll do it better this time I swear!". I
can't wait until they try to reach the size of PayPal and realize their whole
business model is based solely on fraud prevention. Something not easily, dare
I say possibly, solved by any algorithm.

This is also why I like 37Signals, since they let their customers outgrow
their software. For every project manager that says "ugh basecamp doesnt do
this, I need something else", 37Signals quietly says "see ya later, you'll be
back in a year!"

------
JacobAldridge
Seems to me the bigger issue here is HOW they implemented this, not WHY they
implemented it.

Yes, some people are asking that they personally be allowed to take the risk
of hosting unverified people. As AirBNB continues to grow, I understand and
agree why they won't let you do it - more cases of drug parties or robberies
could ruin their business, and your business isn't worth as much to them as
their business.

But requiring (if I understand it correctly) one of Facebook, LinkedIn, or a
video? Telling you this ~80% of the way through a booking process?
Implementing it with no notification (so people currently on holidays suddenly
bump into the requirements)? These are the bigger issue.

I doubt they will cancel the current implementation plan in order to rethink a
new one. But improving upon it - in particular with additional ways to verify
identity - seems important.

------
nathan_f77
No matter what you do, there's always going to be complaints. Verified ID is a
seriously good idea. I would definitely feel safer hosting verified people. Of
course, they might still be horrible guests, but that will be their last visit
with any AirBnb host.

~~~
sdas7
Good on ya. But it should be an option, not forced. If you only want to host
people with "Verified ID", then just reject anybody who doesn't have it.

~~~
signed0
If I read the article correctly, hosts are still in control as to whether they
will allow all guests or just verified. Did I misinterpret this?

Is the uproar over the mandate that a random 25% of users are now required to
go through verification?

~~~
Dylan16807
25% is really high and might as well be mandatory. Only a fool would count on
not having to verify, especially when they don't tell you until the last
second. This isn't a pilot program, this is a massive, invasive change.

------
lawnchair_larry
Wow, I was planning to use them for the first time for a vacation in a few
weeks. No way in hell they're getting my business now. Way more invasive than
a hotel.

A video? Who seriously thought that this was a good idea?

~~~
mazzer
Hotels unilaterally ask for ID and a credit card these days.

~~~
bambax
Some (ok, maybe most) hotels ask for an ID when you check in.

But I've never been to a hotel that asked for an ID _just to make a
reservation_. I use booking.com, which is perfect BTW, and they never asked
for an ID.

------
dwightgunning
"Quit trying to mine data under the guise of trust." A commenter to the
original AirBnB announcement.

So true and happens all the time.

------
DigitalSea
Sounds like the process Paypal have been using for a while. I recall having to
send a scan of my passport, drivers licence and Visa card to them a while back
to prove I am not a money launderer and using the service for legitimate
purposes. While intrusive I am more inclined to trust Paypal than Airbnb for a
couple of reasons. One of those being Paypal have been around longer, they've
established a rapport and two, I either comply or lose any funds I have in my
Paypal account and make it hard for others to send me money in the future.

These kinds of processes scare me mostly from a safety point of view, but also
from a trust point of view. How do I know the person verifying my credentials
on the other end isn't secretly funnelling my documentation off to a nefarious
third party using it to get a loan in my name or steal my identity to commit a
crime? This has trouble written all over it, surely there is another way? The
step requiring LinkedIn or Facebook is just ridiculous, what if you don't use
any of those services?

If a company like Airbnb wants to dig themselves a hole, why should it be up
to us to help them get out of it? I won't be using the service any more
because of these changes and I assume others won't either.

~~~
scrrr
One person in that post said it right: "You want people to send you their
photo ID / passport? Are you out of your *&#%& mind?"

I am not even sure if I am legally ALLOWED to send a copy of my ID anywhere in
my country.

The right answer to a request from a company asking for such information is
"F.U., no".

~~~
lysium
In Germany, you are not allowed to copy your personal ID document.

~~~
jacalata
That's an interesting claim, what do you mean?

~~~
lysium
You are not allowed to make a photocopy of the personal ID document. It
contains data about your electronic signature.

~~~
jacalata
I really meant 'who says so?' It sounds like an unusual restriction, and when
I tried googling it I couldn't find any mention of this.

~~~
lysium
Its in Section 14 of the relevant law:

<http://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/pauswg/__14.html>

(in German, obviously)

It says who is allowed to 'process' the relevant information from the
document. Copying is not mentioned.

The German Wikipedia has a section on it:
[http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personalausweis_(Deutschland)#K...](http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personalausweis_\(Deutschland\)#Kopiereinschr.C3.A4nkungen)

------
toddmorey
My question: What exactly is AirB&B trying to solve for here? Is it safety for
the host? Legal requirements? Payment fraud and chargebacks?

As mentioned in the article, it feels like increased verification requirements
should be an option available to to the host rather than a universal
requirement.

One important lesson learned: no one wants to record a brief video as a step
of any verification process.

~~~
aacook
Agreed the video is somewhat ridiculous. It could be a supply/demand tilt
(more demand than supply: weed out the crappy demand). It could also be a long
term move. If they're able to have all verified people in the network, they'll
have basically the most powerful local network ever created.

------
freyr
I objected when a roommate wanted to rent out our living room on Airbnb. I
realize that the probability is extremely low that we'd end up with a deranged
lunatic in our house. But for me, that tiny possibility (and more so the
irrational stress that accompanies it) far outweighs the benefit making a few
extra bucks on the side.

So would I reconsider using Airbnb now that they have Verified IDs? Probably
not. The root of the issue is that I don't want strangers in my house while
I'm asleep. Even if Airbnb has their info on file, they're still strangers to
me.

This move likely alienates many of their core users, while offering no appeal
to non-users like me. Perhaps there is another segment this appeals to --
users who are concerned about the possibility of petty crime, and who feel
this would be a deterrent or would aid with legal recourse?

------
lucisferre
> Banks lose customer data all the time and they have some of the most
> stringent standards possible

Tell that to my maximum 6 digit, no special characters bank web login pin.

------
ranman
Am I the only person who thinks all of these people are overreacting?

~~~
guard-of-terra
How so? I genuinely don't have facebook or linkedin, I genuinely don't want to
record a video (in english lol wtf?) with my personal details and I'll
genuinely not use them ever if they start doing that to international
customers.

They think they're unique but their business model is trivial to reproduce
once they have alienated half of their audience.

~~~
ranman
Why are you so opposed to having your identify verified so that hosts know
you're not a scammer? You couldn't give them even a library card with your
photo on it or something? The ease-of-use of Airbnb is what makes everyone
like it... I don't think that's super easy to replicate. I also don't think a
quick ID check dramatically reduces the ease-of-use.

~~~
guard-of-terra
They don't just want an ID, what they want is an account on some intrusive
social network.

------
Travelchick
Wow... what on earth are they thinking? And what on earth are some people who
have commented thinking, to support this?

I go to hotels, hostels, couch-surf, etc; I know people who rent properties
with varying degrees of seriousness and involvement, and couch-surfing hosts.
I interact with people who do these things on every continent. Airbnb is
ridiculously out of line; it's requiring more than authoritarian governments
do, much less any of its competition.

------
mike_esspe
It's already a common practice in Russia to ask for ID during check-in. Why
not ask all hosts to do it, it will have less friction for guests.

Lately, my Russian friend was trying to do a last minute reservation via
Airbnb and they asked for verification. Russian users do not have facebook,
they use vk.com, and instead of linkedin they have moikrug.ru. So she had to
use a local alternative (sutochno.ru). Lost money for Airbnb.

------
orangethirty
I'm just waiting for the first AirBnB user that declines to leave the rental
property. Eviction in some places is a really hard and long process.

------
NameNickHN
What I don't get is how is a video supposed to verify anything? Why did they
pick loyal customers to do the verification? It would be more comprehensible
if they required it from new customers. And lastly, why don't they use a real
id confirmation service. Where I live we can go to the local post office, show
some ID and that's it. No sending personal data anywhere.

------
ISeemToBeAVerb
I think AirBnB has every right to ask its users to verify their identity in
some way. It just so happens, the methods they chose were maybe not the best
options for their UX.

I mean, I don't see how you can go half way on this. Leaving the choice up to
the host doesn't protect anyone. It's easy to say "hey, I don't want to bother
with this.", but the minute something DOES go wrong, who are they going to
blame? AirBnB.

They have to cover their ass, simple as that. It sucks, but we live in a
litigious society that loves to transfer blame.

If you were in a position where you had to make a tough choice and disappoint
some people to protect your family(or company), you'd do it too.

As far as data mining goes... what's new? Are there any massive scale online
businesses that aren't looking for new ways to mine their users for marketing
and business data? I don't like it either, but I can't say I didn't expect it.

------
atechnerd
Deja vu when reading the Airbnb reply. Did they really repeat a paragraph, or
is that an error in the blog post?

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stratosvoukel
A big concern of mine is that this verification process does not seem
inclusive to transgender people. Obviously the official documentation of these
people would not necessarily match their online profiles , or in case of video
their appearance. Thoughts?

~~~
moheeb
No one really cares about transgender people. They make up such a small
percentage of the population that they're not worth worrying about. In nearly
all cases they are forced into the existing system/structure, unless legally
required otherwise.

~~~
stratosvoukel
Do you think that this is right or wrong? I think that it is wrong. Also the
assumption that they make such a small percentage is wrong.

~~~
ranman
I don't think it's right or wrong (on the part of Airbnb, maybe wrong on the
part of society as a whole -- there are federal laws for
handicap/accessibility problems but not yet for self-identity not matching
government issued identity)

The issue is that transgender people make up (I'm guessing and feel free to
correct me if I'm wrong) < 5% of the general population. I would then assume
that < 1% of the Airbnb population is transgender. That's a low enough number
that it is more efficient for Airbnb to solve for those issues on a case by
case basis rather than in code / process changes. Simple case of optimizing
for the 90% instead of the 100% -- if that's offensive then I apologize but in
my opinion it's justified in the near-term (maybe not in the long-term)

------
zephyrnh
Hey everyone, I'm one of the engineers who worked on Verified ID. I'm going to
keep reading all the comments people leave, but rather than respond to all of
them on here, I've written up some of my thoughts on our blog:
<http://nerds.airbnb.com/verified-id/>

I'd just like to stress that this doesn't address all the issues brought up,
since some of them require more time, but I'm happy to answer more questions
if you leave a comment on my post.

------
jspiral
I think i was an involuntary early adopter of this process, my experience was
that the ID upload kept failing and then broke the connection to my linkedin
and facebook accounts. Support wasn't able to help, beyond suggesting I make a
video.

<https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5710284>

------
triplesec
Inevitable as a company get bigger it likes bureaucracy more and wants to
cover its ass over being sued for bad experiences.

We all hate Paypal for its overofficcious moneylaundering ID requests which,
should its dBs be compromised could easily screw the finances of millions. Do
we really want to give these people IDs?

~~~
Vivtek
The difference there is that Paypal is required by law to make those ID
requests. AirBNB is not.

~~~
triplesec
Oh quite right! This is why I'm entirely against this, whereas I just deeply
hate Paypal's lack of customer service.

------
mcintyre1994
Wow, this could be interesting. Scaling this across the world, reliably
verifying anybody in the world, seems like an extremely hard problem,
especially with the restraint that people can't just walk away.

------
whynotbalu
Anyone else surprised at the fact that this poor UX is happening at a company
and founding team that pride themselves in their design roots? Wtf.

------
crucini
I don't know much personally about airbnb.

I wonder how many bad incidents airbnb has facilitated? Searching for "airbnb
robberies" seems to point to only one incident (San Francisco) where the
victim blogged about it.

But generally we shouldn't expect to hear about crimes facilitated by airbnb.
Neither the cops nor the victims have an incentive to publicize it.

airbnb may have paid out a lot in hush money and settlements.

So, while this new identity scheme is unwelcome and intrusive, it may be the
only way forward for airbnb.

------
stefantalpalaru
Bankruptcy is normal in a free market. Let's let Airbnb disappear and make
room for better companies.

