
Flow Hive: Honey on Tap Directly from Your Beehive - nkurz
http://www.honeyflow.com
======
j_m_b
This is a dream finally come true, the ability to have honey on tap! One nice
thing about this technology is that it is backwards compatible with existing
beekeeping hives. It also reduces the amount of times a hive must be opened
for inspection or harvesting. No matter how careful you are, you always end up
killing bees, disrupting comb and throwing off the homeostasis of a hive every
time you open it.

It is hard to find disadvantages to this system; it is a huge improvement over
current systems, almost at the level of the original invention of the moveable
frame hive by Langstroth. The only big disadvantage I can think of is that is
it might be easier to over harvest with this system. This would result in
beekeepers losing hives over the winter.

Awesome technology!

~~~
electrum
They mention the over harvest problem in the FAQ:

"Do I need to leave some honey in the hive for the bees?

Yes, this applies to all beekeeping. Your bees need honey to get them through
the times when there is no nectar available. The number of frames of honey
that you leave depends on your climate. You should consult local beekeepers as
to how much they leave in their colonies over the winter.

The Flow frames make it a lot easier to see how much honey is in your frames
at any time, so you can learn to manage how much honey to harvest and how much
to leave for the bees.

Watching the honey level change every day is quite fascinating and I
personally feel more in touch with the bees and can’t help but look on a daily
basis. You can also take just a small amount of honey if you choose, by
draining one frame or part of a frame."

~~~
j_m_b
The only big disadvantage I can think of is that is it _might_ be easier to
over harvest with this system.

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panic
Some thoughts on Flow Hive from a beekeeper:
[http://www.honeybeesuite.com/should-you-go-with-the-
flow/](http://www.honeybeesuite.com/should-you-go-with-the-flow/)

~~~
rdtsc
I only know about beekeeping by watching my grandfather. He really enjoyed his
bees. The centrifuge extractions was always my favorite part. I played with
the "smoker" and of course got stungs by bees once in a while.

But anyway, getting the honey out was fun, but there was a lot more stuff I
remember him doing like preparing hives for winter, he put water (maybe sugar
water) for them eat in the spring sometimes, moved the hives to different
gardens and other locations.

------
lekanwang
Cute idea. But as a beekeeper in the Bay Area, I have to agree with
@tehchromic--there's some tricky stuff to consider to make this work:

\- How will they prevent the bees from covering the internal mechanism with
wax? Bees often cover plastic foundations with layer of wax as they build up
the cells.

\- More troubling, why won't the bees cover the mechanism with propolis (bee
glue)? Bees tend to want to cover any crack with the stuff, which is really,
really sticky stuff. Any time we've accidentally left an opening (that's not
the entrance) somewhere in our hives, the bees have completely sealed it up
with propolis, which is then extremely difficult to clean off.

\- How will the honey flow freely? At bay area temperatures during
Spring/early summer harvests, the temperature isn't high enough that the honey
will flow freely when uncapped--it'd take on the order of at least 15 minutes,
and more likely an hour or more if you want to do it cleanly, but leaving a
jar of honey out for that long is going to attract all kinds of pests, and
also bees, which kind of defeats the purpose of this.

\- How do you clean this? As tehchromic mentions, this is going to have
serious crystallization issues. During normal centrifuge or wax-scraping
harvests, you end up having to wash all your equipment pretty thoroughly
afterwards, or else the honey crystallizes and makes everything gunk up.

\- Why would the bees uncap the harvested cells? I agree long-term that this
would happen if you harvested a lot of honey, but I've rarely seen bees uncap
the central stores of honey you're harvesting from, especially if you're
careful about what you harvest to leave the bees enough for the winter.

\- How will you deal with the additional pests and diseases? More nooks and
crannies will encourage more pests to enter and roost. Having a spigot also
encourages bad beekeeping, especially harvesting before the cells are capped.
Honey is supersaturated sugars, which is why it doesn't go bad. But if you end
up harvesting before it's capped, you're going to get nectar or sugar water
that will actually go bad and additionally play host to a ton of pests and
diseases.

Overall, I love that this is going viral--I honestly hope it attracts a bunch
of new people to beekeeping, and I'm curious enough to support the Kickstarter
and try one out, but I'm guessing those who stick with it will switch to
normal Langstroth hives after a season or two.

------
schiffern
For comparison, here is the system this replaces:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AfC1JBGx2TY#t=3m20s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AfC1JBGx2TY#t=3m20s)

edit: Or the old-fashioned way: [http://waywardspark.com/extracting-honey-the-
old-fashioned-w...](http://waywardspark.com/extracting-honey-the-old-
fashioned-way/)

~~~
tehchromic
The old fashioned way gets my vote. Look at the huge wax slab he got out of
it! No way you'll get that with the Flow machine.

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DanBC
Just in case they're readng this: the huge and fixed header is sub-optimal.
[http://imgur.com/JTIImb5](http://imgur.com/JTIImb5)

I don't know why people fix those headers. It's a weird idea.

~~~
Retr0spectrum
It still takes up a ridiculous ammount of space on desktop:
[http://i.imgur.com/4HGJeku.png](http://i.imgur.com/4HGJeku.png)

~~~
dm2
For a split second I thought somebody had attempted to put a bee hive on their
desk.

------
mdisraeli
Anything where you can turn a batch job into a constant stream is going to be
of major appeal to large scale industrial production. Pretty much a perfect
example of a disruptive invention!

Looking for how industrial manufacture of honey works, I found this video:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ctIqmhTo7E4](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ctIqmhTo7E4)

This method would do away with uncapping 'super' frames and centrifuging them.
You could just plumb in the frames, and add control motors to rotate which
frame is released.

As others have pointed out, however, there are risks to this method. It does
make over-harvest more likely, and could lead to fewer inspections of the bees
for parasites and other issues. This is where industrial scale operations
actually would cope very well - the entire system turns into chemical
engineering, leaving bee keepers to focus on the (productive) welfare of the
bees. It could even allow for integrated analysis of the honey, opening up
greater control and closer control of harvest levels.

~~~
tehchromic
It's much more practical for thousands of hives to be gathered by truck and
the honey to be processed out of them by automated machinery, than for someone
to walk around tapping some expensive contraption sitting on each hive, into
mason jars. I don't see how a machine like this could ever be practical for a
large scale commercial beekeeper. This device is intended for the backyard
keeper, who has time to fiddle with it.

~~~
MikeTV
They offhandedly mention pneumatic control (look for "beeks" on the indiegogo
page). Think milking pipeline, but for honey.

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dm2
Best picture of how it works that I could find:
[http://www.honeyflow.com/media/images/content/detail/honey_d...](http://www.honeyflow.com/media/images/content/detail/honey_draining_1-gallery173_Feb18220338.jpg)

------
legohead
If you subscribe to their newsletter the introduction email tells you how it
works. It makes great sense! Good job on them :)

I don't want to paste it here as I wouldn't want to undermine their marketing
approach.

~~~
mparlane
Or read about it here:
[http://www.honeyflow.com/faqs/p/22](http://www.honeyflow.com/faqs/p/22)

------
jemfinch
As someone who gave up my backyard beehive in 2014 because it swarmed four
times in two weeks, likely as a result of my decision not to harvest honey in
2013, this idea excites me a lot.

As someone with young kids, the idea of a window in the hive excites me as
well. I will almost certainly pick up backyard beekeeping again when this
becomes available.

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Qworg
Another beekeeper here. There's no reason to believe that the bees will uncap
the now empty cells to refill them post Flow extraction. I'm with tehchromic
and the beekeeper that panic posted - this is a fad/sham. All of the Master
Beekeepers I know agree.

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tehchromic
As a beekeeper with 40 hives in operation and an avid follower of the organic
beekeeper movement, as outlined by the Barefoot Beekeeper (book), and Dee
Lusby's organic treatment free beekeeping group (Organic Beekeepers Yahoo
group), and a host of associated beekeepers and writers, I'll give you my
simple take: this is a gimmick.

The target audience of this device is the amateur, backyard keeper, aspiring,
or with little beekeeping experience. To them, the appeal of this device is
immediate: honey without work.

Likely, it will cause more work.

All these little funnels and plastic parts aren't going to stay clear. Most
honeys crystallize over time. Some varieties do so in days. If any
crystallization happens at all, the machinery will be useless. You'd have to
remove the whole thing and maybe boil it, or something like that. And
crystallization inside the thing is inevitable.

In fact, I'd bet that there is no regular use of this machine that will
prevent crystallization from gumming it up. Once it has been used once, there
is going to be a steady flow of honey into your bottles, as the bees go about
repairing and refilling their honey stores. At that point, it will be uncured
honey, which can go bad. You could close the tap, to prevent seepage, but My
guess is that the whole contraption will have to be removed and cleaned at
least yearly, on top of the regular visits required to keep clearing honey out
of it.

Meanwhile, I collect my honey once per year, by removing combs and crushing
and straining honey in a press. It's not that hard! And, I don't really have
to worry about honey until the end of the season at harvest time. Until then,
no worries! The bees look after it. I don't know why I'd want to introduce my
own complex system into such a simple one.

Bees don't tend to follow any rules except their own, so mostly beekeeping is
a practice of understanding of what bees want to do, and planning in advance
so they do it in a way that makes sense for you both. Simplicity is a
beekeeper's best friend - the bees handle the complexity, and a good beekeeper
understands not to add more.

Bees appreciate that. They are very sensitive to things going on in their nest
and stores. They often abscond (completely leave) if they don't like what is
going on. Plastic is an alien material in a hive. Comb on the other hand, is
an epidermis for bees. It has it's own biota, a bacterial/fungal/viral
ecosystem that provides a living layer on which the bees work and live. When
given plastic, bees will cover it in comb and propolis like they will with
wood or rock. They never put their honey in anything but comb. The Flow device
replaces much of the natural foundation of a bees honey store system, with
more plastic. I don't think that's a good idea.

For the backyard, keeper, probably the best comparison I can make with the
Flow product is to someone who wants to get in shape buying exercise equipment
off the TV. What's really for sale is the illusion of reward without having to
work. Fancy contraptions won't make beekeeping easier any more than they make
exercise easier, when you're used to sitting on your duff. For most
enthusiastic adopters, this product will probably end up in the garage, or a
land fill.

So I'll say the Flow machine is a fad that will have the end result of
producing more plastic junk. It does make a good gimmick, but I can't wish the
creators luck, as I believe their talents are best spent elsewhere.

~~~
aric
> _The target audience of this device is the amateur, backyard keeper,
> aspiring, or with little beekeeping experience. To them, the appeal of this
> device is immediate: honey without work._

I'd like to do some beekeeping. This device piques my interest not because
it's "honey without work" but because it's honey with possibly less work and
less killing. Even if it's honey with more work but less disturbance of bees,
I'd be interested. Traditional harvesting of honey is one way. That's not to
say it's the proper way. That's not to say new ways like Flow are good either.
You might be right. However, new ways are worth exploring.

> _Comb on the other hand, is an epidermis for bees. It has it 's own biota, a
> bacterial/fungal/viral ecosystem that provides a living layer on which the
> bees work and live. When given plastic, bees will cover it in comb and
> propolis like they will with wood or rock. They never put their honey in
> anything but comb. The Flow device replaces much of the natural foundation
> of a bees honey store system, with more plastic._

How is anything in the human-driven beekeeping process natural either: cut
wood, wire, frames, boxes, glass, disrupting, crushing? I avoid certain types
of plastics but it doesn't seem that invasive here. Bees appear to be making
most of the comb like usual:
[http://www.honeyflow.com/gallery/p/23](http://www.honeyflow.com/gallery/p/23)
Unless I'm misunderstanding the few images they have, Flow appears as
unnatural as other common, unnatural methods, and less destructive. According
to the FAQ: _[There is no reason why you cant have traditional wax combs and
honey Flow™ frames in the same hive, this allows you to have honey on tap and
honeycomb /wax from the one hive.]_

You might be right about it as a whole. I appreciate your words. Its utility
remains to be seen.

~~~
tehchromic
To answer your question, wood is the most natural foundation for honey bees.
They generally live in wood, and cutting it does't alter it materially. They
also live in stone.

As organic beekeepers, myself and many others reject the use of wire, plastic,
glass, and anything except wood in the hive. Most of the equipment in the
modern commercial beekeeping stack, which is also sold to the backyard keeper,
is invented to sell you more stuff, and no good for beekeeping.

I disagree about the less work and less destructive point, and that's the main
point I was making. I think this machine will cause more work, in the form of
maintenance. I think it will cause you to open your hive more, and will
require regular washing and cleaning to work.

Lastly, about killing bees and destroying their home, the common Langstroth
hive is a pretty poor tool for working with bees and avoiding crushing them.
It is heavy and frames are clumsy. However, it is possible to work Lang's
gently, so that very, very few bees are crushed. That includes comb removal
and extraction. An experienced keeper (outside of the commercial industry
where automation and machinery crushes bees like nuts), doesn't crush many
bees.

Even better, there are hive designs much older than the Lang, that are even
easier to work. I use a design based on a Christ hive, which is light and easy
to work. I just never crush bees, even during harvest.

So my point is that, while I do think technology and beekeeping go hand in
hand, I prefer tech that makes things simpler, rather than more complicated. I
think this gadget is a gimmick and would be difficult to use in the real
world. That's my two cents, as an experienced beekeeper. Cheers!

~~~
aric
Thanks for the follow-up. It's good to know. Cheers, and keep on (organically)
keeping!

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reitanqild
Seriously cool. As someone with a background from small-scale farming(not
beekeeping though) I love this and I am happy to see others enthusiastic as
well.

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winslow
So traditionally you have to uncap the honeycomb and then extract the honey
using centripetal force. With this you just crack the center of the honey comb
and it drains out below. This is pretty cool.

Does anyone see any cons to using this method compared to 'traditional'
methods? Also anyone know a price? I couldn't find anything listed.

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jalopy
As an avid consumer: I approve of any device which makes it easier to get this
product to my mouth. :)

Very well done!

~~~
winslow
Have you tried mead? Also what's your favorite variety of honey?

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luddypants
Very cool! (As a side note, do people actually use the phrase "there has to be
a better way!" unsarcastically?)

