
Introverts, Emotional Processing, Self-Esteem and Salary Negotiations - 19870213
http://www.cliffc.org/blog/2017/07/30/introverts-emotional-processing-self-esteem-and-salary-negotiations/
======
scottLobster
Seems like most of his advice could be summed up as: "Don't over-complicate
the situation".

To use his first example, when he's being insulted why spin off into
emotional-analysis neverland? What's happening there is you're being abused by
an asshole, and you should respond to said abuse and, once that situation is
resolved, examine the real issue more thoroughly.

I'm speaking as someone who used to think exactly like this guy. What I
realized in early college was: In general, no one cares. No one cares if
you're partially wrong, no one cares if you're a little off or awkward, no one
beyond your family/SO and close friends gives a flying fuck about your
emotions. Nor will they remember a slight moment of awkwardness a week later.
They're simply far too consumed with their own lives for it to matter.
Demanding perfect social interactions is paralyzing, irrational and not
expected.

He does arrive at some appropriate conclusions ("Know thy worth"), but all the
analogies and self-analysis he does isn't "emotional processing", it's simple
insecurity. IMO the only emotions he's processing in those moments are fear
and anxiety.

~~~
silassales
> In general, no one cares. No one cares if you're partially wrong, no one
> cares if you're a little off or awkward, no one beyond your family/SO and
> close friends gives a flying fuck about your emotions.

Took me awhile to figure this one out, but once I did, life was significantly
better.

~~~
pixelperfect
People do care about these things if you are a well-known public figure. I
think the constant scrutinizing over the conduct of public figures misleads
people into believing that their own actions are being scrutinized in the same
way.

~~~
scottLobster
More accurately, people who don't like those well-known public figures care
about those things. The fans and neutrals usually don't care and often even
defend the awkwardness.

------
gboudrias
This is amateur psychology, and it's mostly wrong. Psychology is a real field
and writing about what you don't know in this field can do more harm than
good.

I stopped at:

> Getting anger out requires some physical activity to get the adrenaline to
> metabolize.

This has been disproven. "Letting it out" only leads you to be more
aggressive. Maybe at a more appropriate time, but still, it doesn't "calm you
down". Time and reflection do that.

The bit about "The Aspects of Farmer, The Magi, and the Warrior" seems
particularly out of place. It is pure conjecture, and seems arbitrary to me.

It's good to know yourself but please refrain from giving general advice based
on your personal anecdotal evidence. I'm talking about everything after your
own introspection. It seems like helping but it isn't.

Edit: Also to anyone reading this, for the love of god, don't take
psychological advice from untrained internet strangers. If you find yourself
struggling with the same issues, see a therapist. They're good at this stuff.

~~~
eksemplar
Anything that divides people into introverts or extroverts is humbug. It's
true that some people are more introverted than others in certain situations,
but as a general rule, everyone are both things.

Preferring to stay home and read a book rather than socialize at a bar is an
introverted trait, but dungeon mastering (or even participating) in a role
playing event is extroverted. Being unsure what to say at lunch is
introverted, owning the tech meeting is extroverted.

I mean, its obviously more complicated than this, but the basic rule is that
there is no such thing as an introvert, and honestly, as a manager of people
with varying degrees of loudness, it's not always the loudest or most social
people who are good at bargaining for a raise.

~~~
rimliu
Pretending something does not exist will not make it to go away. Yes, you will
hardly find pure introvert or extrovert, but you will find plenty of people
not in the middle of the scale and those can be called introverts or
extroverts. It's like claiming that gays and straight people do not exist
because there are no 100% gay or 100% straight people.

Yes introverts do some "extroverted" stuff, and may be even very good at that.
What makes them different from extroverts is that extroverts get energised by
doing that, and introverts get drained.

~~~
eksemplar
I'm not really pretending, it's a scientific fact proven empiricaly, but by
all means go a head and believe in fairies if you want.

------
rhizome
Is "stun-locked" from a video game I don't play or TV show I don't watch?

A lot of the psychologizing and self-diagnosis in this post could be cut out
if the author realized he was simply being verbally abused by an asshole.
Which he was. No need for the "red" and "green" stuff. "Why" rarely matters,
and even less often is something you can do anything about, while choosing
your response is. Sometimes that response should be "you're a fuckin' asshole,
Chad," which doesn't rely on knowing why they're being an asshole. Do I have
to feel that I grasp the "Warrior" mentality in order to tell someone they're
being rude?

There's a lot of metaphor and cruft in this story as it trundles on, and
oftentimes naming things is used to _not_ deal with them. Is anybody
disrupting copy-editing as a service for bloggers?

~~~
mfoy_
"stun-locked" is video game terminology, at least as far as my understanding
of it goes.

Essentially some act "stuns" you, in this case a direct challenge or statement
made by the guy verbally assaulting him sends him reeling. Each statement is
made successively so he was stunned by each statement... hence "stun-locked"
as in he was stunned, then stunned again, then again, and had no time to
collect himself or respond.

In video games "stun-locking" usually means to render another player out of
control of their character temporarily, but when the effects are chained the
other player can do basically nothing until the perpetrator has run out of
ways to keep the "stun-lock" going.

~~~
0xcde4c3db
As an illustration, here's a speedrunner stun-locking the first boss of Final
Fight [1].

[1] [https://youtu.be/_UPVa_ftVWk?t=58](https://youtu.be/_UPVa_ftVWk?t=58)

(Explanation: in Final Fight, you can normally only chain 3-4 hits on an enemy
before knocking them down, which makes them invulnerable until they stand up.
However, if you miss an attack, it resets the counter. Turning around,
punching the air, and then landing another hit can be done in less than the
length of most enemy stuns.)

------
dgreensp
I'm confused about whether the "WTF your crap is crap" example is exaggerated
or true-to-life. If true, I would leave that job, or at least report to
management that I'm unwilling to work with that person and be treated like
that. If the example is exaggerated, then it confuses the point a bit because
it bakes the author's sensitivity into reality for the purpose of the article.
Maybe I've just always worked with other sensitive, conflict-avoidant
engineers, and not assholes, but the example is way outside of bounds for me.

The way to think about a situation like that is in terms of having boundaries,
not about ego. Don't take abuse. You don't need a witty comeback. Or, it will
come when you stop thinking you need to tolerate abuse.

The part about talking with your partner about what works for you in sex is
lovely.

------
j_s
Paging HN's own JoshDoody, who helps developers with salary negotiation for a
living. And/or anyone who has used his (or similar) services!

 _“What’s your current salary?” is a trap question–Here 's how to answer it_ |
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13724755](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13724755)

"Before you even get a job offer, it's important to decide what your "walk
away" number is [...] I recommend literally writing it down" \-
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14447890](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14447890)

~~~
JoshDoody
Thanks for the mention j_s! This is a really interesting thread and a long
article by Cliff. I'm working my way through it now.

Looks like the "current salary" question came up. Any other topics I should
jump on for this thread? (Soooo many comments, it's taking a long time to get
through them.)

Cheers!

~~~
j_s
My question would be to help a community I've recently discovered where
college grads are practicing mock interviews on Twitch:

What mindset is needed as someone with minimal production development
experience (perhaps an internship or something) goes into a job interview
salary negotiation? That first negotiation forms the foundation of the rest of
their career -- no pressure!

~~~
JoshDoody
Great question. My top answer is the article you linked to in your original
comment: Don't disclose your current or desired salary. That will cost you a
lot of money.

Since you mentioned mock interviews, I'll assume that Twitch channel is mostly
focused on interviewing, getting more interviews, and ultimately getting job
offers. If that's the case, the single best thing they can work on is their
positioning - telling a story about how they'll make the company better if
they're a part of it.

I have a video of how Software Developers can do this effectively here:
[https://fearlesssalarynegotiation.com/software-developer-
pos...](https://fearlesssalarynegotiation.com/software-developer-positioning/)

This is especially useful for internships and entry-level jobs because most of
the resumes submitted for those jobs look very similar. But positioning can
help a Developer stand out from the pack. Sometimes, standing out as a
slightly stronger candidate is all it takes to get an offer.

------
namuol
> Has this ever happened to you?

> <verbal abuse from coworker>

 _Hell_ no. Not even close.

What kind of terrible places have you worked? If you ever experience anything
close to this level of abuse you should report it if possible, and if nothing
changes, quit.

------
bsaul
Many of this reminds me of lack of self confidence. Being affected by other
people's emotions when they are directed at you is also due to the (too) high
importance you grant to their opinion of what you'll do or say or respond.

~~~
intjk
Oh, I see we've met!

My current hypothesis is that a sever lack of self-esteem causes me to rely on
esteem from others. But because negative interactions hurt so much more than
good interactions feel good, I just end up avoiding others.

There's also my mother's hypothesis that some combination of drugs will fix
me. I think this seems improbable, but she claims it's how she was fixed.

~~~
bsaul
My personal way of helping myself is to first of all realize everybody feels
like shit, do lame things, has moments of weakness, etc.

Once you've really really realized that ( knowing it is not enough, you have
to know people that seem brilliant and successful and find out how shite or
vulnerable they sometimes feel), you start to be a little less ashamed of your
own weaknesses.

Another good thing is your start to be a lot more tolerant and human, and,
well, less of an asshole.

You also become less afraid of failing, which lets you try more things.

------
kevinburke
Every time I am about to quote my rate for a contract, or enter a salary
negotiation, I reread the details of [http://www.cbsnews.com/news/silicon-
valley-software-engineer...](http://www.cbsnews.com/news/silicon-valley-
software-engineers-accuse-google-apple-intel-adobe-of-collusion/)

That usually gets me fired up enough

------
danielharrison
An alternative approach I use to combat alpha-holes, and general abuse/anger
is to not answer the question 100%, or answer with a lot of ambiguity. The
goal is to raise more questions than you answer (don't answer them, just throw
a curve ball). Couple it with some down-talking and you're good to go.

This throws the attacker into a bit of mental confusion and their anger
subsides instantly as they're trying to process this unexpected deviation from
their pre-planned storyline. Example:

Ahole: Your code broke while demoing it. You're a shit dev and you should feel
shit.

You: You demoed with the alpha code?! Really? Did your mom never tell you to
ask before you touch? hope you learnt a lesson today. Maybe you should write
some lines.... ' I shall not touch alpha code....'

This is probably an extreme example but it works in every day situations too.
The goal is not to argue back at all. Just flip the entire thing on its head
and leave them out to dry. If they come to battle with a knife, shoot to kill.

~~~
JumpCrisscross
> _Did your mom never tell you to ask before you touch? Hope you learnt a
> lesson today_

If I weren't livid already, that would get me there. It's condescending,
needlessly brings in and insults a loved one and offers zero empathy or
productive feedback.

~~~
AnimalMuppet
_And that may be exactly what is needed._

If someone is trying to be the alpha-jerk, playing emotionally manipulative
games, they're not teachable (at least not at that moment). Compassionately
asking whether they had a rough childhood is not going to help. (I mean, it
might, at a different time and setting. It won't in the current one, though.)

And what they are doing is _not OK_. Life is too short to have to deal with
that kind of garbage.

So what are your options? Silently take it, but that's not helpful - not for
yourself, for your coworkers, _or even for the aggressive jerk who 's abusing
you._ It's probably better to inform the jerk, in no uncertain terms, that
behaving that way will have immediate negative consequences.

Now, it's better if that message comes from the jerk's supervisor, rather than
from a coworker. And it may be better to start with a slightly less aggressive
response (the first time).

Note well: I'm assuming that the behavior is deliberate. If it's not - if they
genuinely don't know any better - they need training on how to not be a jerk.
(Hey, we've all got to learn sometime.)

~~~
JumpCrisscross
> _It 's probably better to inform the jerk, in no uncertain terms, that
> behaving that way will have immediate negative consequences_

There's a bright line between telling someone they're being rude and being
rude back. OP could communicate something like "you're coming across super
aggressively right now; that makes it hard for me to have this conversation."
That draws a clear maturity line. Such lines can motivate better behavior, by
laying the groundwork for mutual respect. They also, in the worst case,
clearly establish fault.

In a professional environment, you can't demand someone stop being an asshole
by being one back. That just invites others to feel fine being rude to you in
the future.

> _I 'm assuming that the behavior is deliberate_

That is an untested assumption. Double check, preferably by asking them as
directly as possible, _e.g._ "this is coming across in an incredibly hostile
way; I don't think that's your intention."

~~~
AnimalMuppet
You're right, of course, on all counts.

Today doesn't seem to be my high point for patience...

------
js8
I don't understand why is he letting the other people to define that there
should be a conflict? For instance, in salary negotiations - I don't get why
so many people (in IT) are opposed to idea of open salaries or at least a
professional organization.

~~~
JustSomeNobody
The people usually opposed are the ones who wish to maintain some sort of
control.

~~~
PhasmaFelis
Why is this (currently) being downvoted? The purpose of closed salaries is to
keep wages down.

~~~
PhasmaFelis
It just baffles me that people are drive-by downvoting this on Hacker News of
all places. I think most of us here agree that transparency is desirable in
government, software development, security, and so many other areas. Why do
employers get a pass with the tired old "we're keeping secrets from you for
your own good" line?

~~~
BurningFrog
HN also agrees that privacy is desirable in just about as many areas.

~~~
PhasmaFelis
How is my privacy protected by a rule that says I'm _not allowed_ to disclose
my salary to my coworkers? Because that's what we're talking about, not just
that the company doesn't publish salaries.

------
robhunter
"The Warrior engages in a fight, and might indeed revel in it. Politicians,
CEO’s, Lawyers, wheeler-dealers, and used car salesmen fall into this camp."

CEO's? Really? Walking into a conversation with a CEO with this stereotype in
mind surely impacts the conversation, no?

~~~
WJW
Walking into any discussion with that mindset impacts the conversation. It
might still be the right strategy if the CEO is really like that.

For example, it would probably be a bad choice to go into negotiations with an
used car salesman without a "Warrior"-like mindset.

------
fundabulousrIII
When you let the other guy piss you off you have lost. Just be amused in
general + skilled and have some trust in your abilities and intelligence and
don't trust anyone but your people.

If you sucked you will suck forever to the people who knew it. Know thyself
and move on.

------
aorloff
Rather than coming up with a set of emotional safeguards to deal with poor
engineering management, why not just find a better manager ?

------
ryanmarsh
Warrior here. It took me some pretty embarrassing red flagging in
relationships with good Magi to realize what I was doing wrong. It's so easy
to roll over people without meaning to. I'm sad and embarrassed to tell you
there are a few people from early in my career who won't return my calls or
blocked me on twitter. These are people I deeply respect.

It's so easy to fuck this up when you are a decisive competitive extroverted
energetic person.

I cannot stress enough the importance of a soft touch around quiet creators.

If I could humbly recommend a trick that will warn someone like me of the
damage they could do. Send an email after the first "stun lock". Explain how
the interaction made you feel. If the person isn't toxic they will realize
what they've done and apologize immediately. If they don't you're dealing with
a grade A asshole and there's honestly nothing you can do short of learning to
be a bigger asshole which would probably violate your integrity.

------
burritofanatic
Lift heavy; do Jiu Jitsu - deter the manager from ever attempting to verbally
abuse you lest risking discordance. Relish in your newfound mental clarity.

~~~
big__air
squats and oats

~~~
rarec
We're all gonna make it.

------
Nihilartikel
As an introverted, quiet, and pathologically sensitive by nature person, I
found this article to be an interesting perspective. Also liked the 'magi',
'farmer', 'warrior' personality disposition vectors.

In the pursuit of not letting my own emotions and tendency towards avoidance
of potential conflict or failure rule my actions I had the notion that no
person is well served by being much more self conscious than a golden
retriever. That is, their feelings remain in the moment, and then they move
on.

This got me running with a few other dog metaphors that have served me well.
For instance, I consider my own emotions, instincts, and drives as if they
were also 'dogs'. Different dogs with different dispositions. Some fearful,
running to hide at the drop of a hat. Others willful, jumping up on the table
to grab the steak even though there will be hell or hangover to pay for later.
Still others coiled, tense, and ready to bite.

The question is, is the measure of a (hu)man, the sum of their dogs? I would
opine that the better measure is in the ability of their master to keep them
on leashes of the right length, and to perhaps, if possible, train them to sit
and shake when it is needed in order to act as the person that you really wish
to be. Just like training a dog or strengthening ones grip on their leash it
takes consistent, deliberate, exercise and it will not happen with any amount
of wishful thinking or un-acted-upon research into bettering ones' self.

Stoicism seems to be a bit of a cliche of late, but I can say that it found me
at the right time, and that it's brought a lot of value as a non-doctrinal
system of perspective for ones' place in the universe and how to best leverage
the one thing that you can actually hope to control, yourself.

I'll allow myself a feeling of pride when I reach the point that a surprise
verbal assault leaves me not with an hour of bruised ego, red face, and
bristling nape, but with the same neutral irritation as when the ornery dog of
a negligent owner barks and growls at me in passing. After all, what's the
difference if the persons belligerence has as little to teach me as the dog's?
Would I vow vengeance on the dog to protect my honor? Lie awake at night
wondering what I did wrong? Of course not. It proves nothing and I have better
things to do.

------
lowbloodsugar
With regard to the "WTF..." issue, I would recommend that you hold a post-
mortem. Get together the relevant stake holders (head of sales, head of
development) and review 1. What Happened, 2. What was the root cause and 3.
Remediating Actions.

If its treated as an opportunity for improvement, and specifically not an
exercise in assigning blame, then I've seen it be very successful. People have
knowledge gaps, incorrect assumptions, institutional knowledge from other
institutions, or just flat out make the wrong call under pressure, in
hindsight. Learn from it and improve. That said, I've also seen it be
completely pointless when a team _believes_ it to be an exercise in blame
assignment, no matter how much its been promised to the contrary. If its not
possible to hold such an exercise, then the company has way bigger problems,
and wouldn't you much rather work somewhere healthy?

------
oDot
While it is useful, I disagree with the concept, which to my understanding is:

> I have the following problem: "..I can’t do verbal processing and emotional
> processing at the same time..." Here are ways to mitigate it.

Mitigation, in my opinion, is secondary to actually solving the problem. I'm
not sure whether OP believes it's solvable and chooses to mitigate, or just
mitigates because he thinks there's no solution -- either way, I believe it IS
solvable.

People who have that problem can learn to do both things at once, A person can
gain control of his Farmer/Magi/Warrior aspects instead of just exhibiting a
given, and most importantly: People can avoid win the war without engaging in
battle. There are so many "fights" going on in that piece, when things can be
solved without them.

Don't underestimate your own capabilities.

------
siliconc0w
I find in general it's helpful to prepare for all interactions. Salary
negotiation especially. When you get on a call to talk about salary with a
recruiter you should already know pretty much how that call is going to go. If
someone catches you off guard with, "Hey your demo shit the bed and ruined the
client meeting" just ask them to schedule a meeting to talk about it. Always
feel you like you can 'reject the premise' that you need to have a
conversation on someone else's terms.

------
icc97
> Right question is:

> Why was I stun-locked?

> Why couldn’t I think of the snappy response?

> Because I can’t do verbal processing and emotional processing at the same
> time!!!

This is worth repeating from the article. It explains an unbelievably common
feeling I've had for my entire adult life - not knowing what to say at the
time and then getting frustrated later on when you do think of something

That one piece is an absolute gem.

His answers for solving this aren't perfect, but certainly worth reading.

------
rukuu001
This describes my personality perfectly.

I learnt to cope with those situations by emotionally distancing myself from
them. Then I'm free to respond more naturally.

~~~
jventura
I used to the same, but that didn't brought me anything good as I started
ignoring my emotional state up to the point that people around me started
saying that I was like a robot or something.

Lately, I've started to read some peer-reviewed research and book by
researchers on emotions, and I've come to accept that emotions are mostly a
biological mechanism which allows for a faster reaction to inputs (from
external inputs or internal inputs - thoughts) before your intellect has time
to process those inputs.

The book "Emotional Intelligence" by Daniel Goleman has a very interesting
chapter (Anatomy of an Emotional Hijackin) that tries to explain biologically
what happens with emotions. The idea is that some of the sensory inputs, for
instance, visual, are sent to the amygdala as well as to the visual cortex.
But since the visual cortex has to do some processing which takes time, the
amygdala has a faster but sloppier response. For instance, someone throws a
ball into you while you're looking away. You can grasp something by the corner
of your eye, and then you raise your arms to defend yourself. Only later you
see that it was an inoffensive beach ball. The first reaction was by the
amygdala while the identification of the ball was done slowly by the visual
cortex..

So now I try to enforce a small amount of time to understand my emotional
feedback mechanism before reacting to things. But if it's a shark coming my
way, I flee, of course. You learn a lot about your self and your own beliefs
by listening to your automatic emotional responses before commiting yourself
to any action/reaction. For the case of the coworker, ideally I would say him
to slowdown, unless I knew beforehand he was a jerk, and maybe I could be more
prepared..

------
swayvil
I was did a contract at a local engineering shop a year ago. Tech writing.

The engineers were INCREDIBLE ASSHOLES.

Really cold and dickish, to me that is.

But to each other! JEEZ. Cliquish, abusive and just fucking mean. Total lord
of the flies shit. Really toxic.

I had a serious talk with a couple of the more abused ones. Told them, "no, it
isn't you, it's them. You need to quit."

I've seen some places that were a bit... diseased... but wow. Is this normal?

~~~
socrates666
Cliques within large companies like Microsoft are common actually. From a
higher perspective, it is a subset of people who agree to a particular
fiction, and they live by it.

So, for example, there is the "Indian Brotherhood" within Microsoft (NOT being
racist, it is THEIR term). There are people who send in doubles to interview
for them (to help you understand: at Microsoft you interview with a team you
won't be working on, and on top of that, several months to a year may pass
between the interview and when you actually start work). Such that, it becomes
the case that the guy who shows up on day 1 is not the guy who passed the
interview a few months ago. If you are a manager, and maybe you came from
India and were hired in by the same route, you may feel an overwhelming social
obligation to protect persons like this. It becomes the case that anyone who
shows disgust, or judgement whatsoever is now a threat to them. On top of
that, you have an incredible amount of leverage over this person. They have
demonstrated that they are willing to lie, cheat and live a totally false life
in order to impress family that lives across the seas. That person is your
bitch now, and they'd better do whatever you say, or you will reveal them as a
fraud/fire them (or so they think).

Reality sucks so hard.

------
devdevdev83
This applies to extroverts as well, not just introverts (and there are plenty
of extroverted programmers too)

~~~
nroach
I’m not convinced that the headline properly represents the content. I think
it’s unfair to imply that the characteristic of introversion is correlated to
a deficit in the ability to process emotional input in realtime. I would
consider myself highly introverted, but I don’t identify at all with the
emotional reaction of the author.

It’s possible that in his specific situation he is both introverted and highly
emotionally responsive. But it’s a logical fallacy to then extrapolate that
connection to other individuals with only one of those attributes.

------
mleonhard
The advice about removing bad people from your life is really good. I did this
a few years ago and my overall life satisfaction improved a lot.

------
mcappleton
When someone acts like a jerk to you, remember this: hurting people hurt
people. It is a natural tendency to lash out at others when we are hurt. So to
fix the situation, try to figure out what's hurting the other guy and see if
you can help deal with the source of his pain. Don't fight back or you'll just
hurt him more and make him more mad.

------
mdns33
you are the man. great work.

------
jaggajasoos33
I think what works in dating works in such scenarios too.

You ask a girl out she says no, you have to just move on to the next one. You
have to tell yourself she does not know you yet properly and it is her loss.
Our brain is very good at forgetting failures over time. You do it sufficient
number of times and you learn to take No like a champ. Spending too much time
thinking about that one failure will only result in waste of time. Of course
it goes without saying that you need to see how to improve things over time.

I was lucky to learn this lesson quickly. Every year I remind my boss that the
salary needs to be either adjusted for inflation (and real estate inflation)
or I should be put a performance improvement plan because if my performance is
down you should not keep me employed.

