
Ask HN: Play Store removed our app, but allows WhatsApp - heroic
We are a FinTech startup in India. We give unserved people a credit card. To ensure recovery we collect user&#x27;s contacts and use them to remind people of their bill if they don&#x27;t pay. All of this is covered in our TnC, and we warn users of the actions we will take before we do so.<p>About two weeks ago, Google Play banned updates to our app from the Play Store citing this section of their Policy, here: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;play.google.com&#x2F;about&#x2F;privacy-security-deception&#x2F;user-data&#x2F;#!?zippy_activeEl=personal-sensitive#personal-sensitive" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;play.google.com&#x2F;about&#x2F;privacy-security-deception&#x2F;use...</a><p>We complied. This is how the screen looked before the change: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;imgur.com&#x2F;a&#x2F;o4Cvh7F" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;imgur.com&#x2F;a&#x2F;o4Cvh7F</a><p>Here&#x27;s how it looked after the change: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;imgur.com&#x2F;a&#x2F;gHP8BDR" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;imgur.com&#x2F;a&#x2F;gHP8BDR</a><p>We were approved after the change. However 3 days later, we were removed from the Play Store. So now no one can download our app, or update their app if they have a buggy outdated version.<p>Despite regular appeals, Google keeps redirecting us to the policy above.<p>Today I checked how WhatsApp handled user uploads, as it&#x27;s the same thing we do; sync contacts on each launch(we don&#x27;t sync when the app is not being used though). Here&#x27;s how WhatsApp looks: <a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;vimeo.com&#x2F;user112475576&#x2F;review&#x2F;406480240&#x2F;9ca7c4e2c1" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;vimeo.com&#x2F;user112475576&#x2F;review&#x2F;406480240&#x2F;9ca7c4e2c1</a><p>Can anyone help us with what should we do? With the COVID crisis our users are unable to depend on us for their daily spends. We&#x27;re are the primary credit card for a lot of them, and not being able to service them now, is making us look bad.
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ccmcarey
> we collect user's contacts and use them to remind people of their bill if
> they don't pay

Are you saying you contact the user's contacts to try to get them to pressure
the user to pay their bill?

\---

I read through your TOS and it looks like this is the relevant line:

> In case of default or late payment, GalaxyCard reserves the right to use
> suitable means to collect dues including electronic and or physical
> communication to the debtor and the debtor's known contacts

I think this is a digusting practice, and I am not surprised Google is
blocking your app. This is _nothing like_ what WhatsApp does - in fact I don't
know of _any service_ at all that does this.

~~~
heroic
Yes. We first contact the user if they don't pay despite calls/emails/push
notification/sms for 45 days. Then we warn them for 15 days that their
contacts will be asked to remind them of the bill, as per the terms. Finally
we contact the contacts.

We do this to prevent having to file legal cases against the users as those
can drag on for very long in India and are a pain for both parties

~~~
mkl
Telling your customers' friends and family about their financial problems
seems like a pretty terrible thing to do.

Edit: And doing so in the hope that they shame or pressure your customers is
awful. I agree with ccmcarey upthread: This is disgusting. Stop it.

~~~
heroic
We do understand that some people may have a financial problem. When user's
approach us and tell us that they are not paying due to such issues, we are
more than happy to accommodate them in every possible way.

One such example of that is that we told our users that we won't be charging
them any late fee during the lockdown as we understand they have issues. We
did this even before our government came up with such an option.

~~~
hncensorsnonpc
Such issues? Accommodate them? What are you even saying, you purposefully
cause those issues. People should contact you AFTER it happened to ask "please
do not contact my contacts" or what?

------
hutzlibu
"Can anyone help us with what should we do?"

Stop using unethical practices. If you use your clients contacts to spam them,
to put pressure on your client, then it seems obvious that you have been
removed. And this is not the same as what WhatsApp does. Their method is not
quite ethical as well, but your method is way below.

------
_gok2
> With the COVID crisis our users are unable to depend on us for their daily
> spends.

If this is truly a humanitarian issue, then then disable the contact
harvesting feature

------
Macha
Did these contacts of the user give consent to be contacted? Your behaviour
seems spammy.

Also the Google page states the following "We don't allow unauthorized
publishing or disclosure of people's non-public contacts. " Arguably
contacting these people is disclosing they are in a user's contacts. You do
seem to breaching Google's policy.

I'm on Google's side here.

~~~
heroic
In that sense, isn't Facebook showing people you may know, also disclosing to
people that they are in my contact list?

~~~
Macha
Contact book presence is but one input into that algorithm, which also
incorporates friends of friends, friends of people who've logged in from the
same IP, people who frequently interact with the same people/content. Its not
directly "You might know Alice, we know because she has your number"

------
olivierduval
Actually, I think that there's 2 different problems here:

\- first is compliance with Google's term. Obviously, you don't say that the
USER's contact will be contacted when the USER bill is out of time and the
USER doesn't pay... so your USER might not have understood that this will be
the case. I think that you should be clearer about the consequences of
allowing your app to access the USER contact list.

\- second, the morality of the app: obviously, some people in occidental (US /
europe) countries might find the app principle awful... because we rely more
on Justice than peer-to-peer social pressure. But it's more a cultural
difference. If the principle is agreed between the people giving and receiving
money... why not ? (I guess that the people giving the money is the one
requiring the USER to download the app... Am I right ?)

BTW: what happens if the people receving the money desinstall the app ? Or
empty its contact list ? Or has no contact ?

If I would like to trick your system, I would fill my contact list with
garbage, get the money, spend it, then let you contact these garbage
contact... Or do you require contacts to use your app too (forced "net
effect") ?

Anyway: nothing common with WhatsApp

~~~
jamil7
> If the principle is agreed between the people giving and receiving money...
> why not ? (I guess that the people giving the money is the one requiring the
> USER to download the app... Am I right

I think your misunderstanding the model. You borrow money from this company
using this app that harvests your contacts without explicitly stating why. If
you don't repay the loan this company starts spamming and harassing your
contacts forcing them to pressure you into repaying your loan.

~~~
heroic
We do give a clear label before asking for user's contacts as to why we need
your contacts. See here:
[https://imgur.com/a/gHP8BDR](https://imgur.com/a/gHP8BDR)

~~~
robjan
From the wording it's not at all clear that you plan to message their contacts
telling them to remind the customer/victim about their outstanding loan.
Furthermore, do you get the consent of the people in their contact list in the
first place?

~~~
true_religion
I am curious. As a thought experiment, how else can having the contacts of
your friend and family be use to remind you of your bills, without contacting
them to remind you?

Personally I can see no other way to read it.

~~~
hluska
I’m sorry but their warning really is not very clear. They write:

“I understand that my contacts will be uploaded and saved on GalaxyCard, and
that they will be used to calculate my eligibility and remind me of my bills.”

Note the use of ‘remind me of my bills’ at the end of that sentence. If this
company truly wanted to be clear, they could have written that:

“I understand that my contacts will be uploaded and saved to GalaxyCard, where
they will be used for two major reasons. First, they will be used to verify
that I am eligible for this service. Second, if I am late to pay my bills, I
understand that GalaxyCard will contact my contacts to tell them that I have
not paid my bills.”

That is significantly more clear as it specifically states they will contact
your contacts if you are late.

~~~
true_religion
Or they will contact them to look for you... like every debt collection
service in the world. That you aren’t paying your bills, might be inferred by
your friends but they aren’t forced to come right out and say you are
delinquent from the get go.

~~~
hluska
Here’s how OP describes their collection process:

“We first contact the user if they don't pay despite calls/emails/push
notification/sms for 45 days. Then we warn them for 15 days that their
contacts will be asked to remind them of the bill, as per the terms. Finally
we contact the contacts.“

This company specifically contacts the contacts to remind the delinquent
person of their bill. I don’t think that warning is very good in light of this
practice. Do you?

~~~
true_religion
Considering that, I would concede that they could have spent a sentence or two
more detailing what they intend to do, instead of burying it in a contract.

------
Jabbles
> To ensure recovery we collect user's contacts and use them to remind people
> of their bill if they don't pay.

Could you explain this sentence in more detail please.

~~~
heroic
We first contact the user if they don't pay despite calls/emails/push
notification/sms for 45 days. Then we warn them for 15 days that their
contacts will be asked to remind them of the bill, as per the terms. Finally
we contact the contacts.

We do this to prevent having to file legal cases against the users as those
can drag on for very long in India and are a pain for both parties

~~~
La1n
So it's basically blackmail? If you don't pay we will let your family and
friends know? Cause the whole reminder thing sounds like a thin veil covering
that, seeing as you remind them already. It's not about the reminder.

~~~
toyg
Social pressure is actually a big part of the success of microcredit
initiatives. In many ways it mirrors arrangements that were common in the now-
developed world at the time of the industrial revolution (i.e. your social
circle would likely know about your outstanding debts, because anyone’s entire
world was very restricted).

I wonder if this is a case of “internet friction”: Indian people would see no
problem with such a behaviour, but one “western” person would be horrified
(because this part of the world has largely moved on from those practices).

------
Jonnax
So you contact people's friends, family, colleagues, and random contacts
saying:

"This person you know is too poor to pay their credit card bill, can you
pressure them into paying it?"

Damn. That's a new level of crazy.

~~~
heroic
These people are not poor. They assume that since it's an app they taking
money from, they can simply refuse to pay. We can, and do, go for the legal
route, but it's much much more painful for the user, and for us, even if we
want to settle it once a case is filed.

~~~
hncensorsnonpc
Dude you LOST, you and India's laws are morally bankrupt about it, you are NOT
heroic! You claim that your customers are not poor but by definition you
stupid lending app is praying in the poor and low IQ people to make you money.
STOP

------
phillc73
Not solutions, but two potential workarounds.

Is it possible to open source the app itself and then distribute via
F-Droid?[1]

Can you provide your customers with a direct apk download? Although, you will
then need to educate your customers about the "scarey" warnings about doing
so. I do not have Google Play Store installed on my phone and it is an
annoyance when app developers do not provide a direct apk download.

Initially, from an ease of update point of view, I guess neither option is
quite as convenient as the Play Store. However, once you've broken your
reliance on Google to distribute your application, you'll never have to deal
with such a situation again.

[1] [https://f-droid.org/](https://f-droid.org/)

~~~
heroic
We are giving the APK as an option to people who are reaching out on support
about bugs. But most people don't have the know how of how to enable
installing from unknown sources

------
anilgulecha
It's a scummy business and even if its fully legal under the text of the law,
you should be ashamed of your tactics and business model.

You'll get no sympathy if a private business will remove you from their store.

------
rognjen
Holy false equivalence Batman!

First, afaik WhatsApp doesn't store your contacts but checks if they're
available on WhatsApp.

Second, it most definitely doesn't contact them.

------
mkbkn
I'm from India and your service seems unethical to me. Good job by Google
banning you. Period.

------
Nextgrid
This has got to be one of the scummiest business models I’ve seen in ages. Do
not do this.

------
t0ughcritic
This is what worries me about building on these platforms they giveth and
taketh at will

------
amelius
That vimeo link doesn't work.

~~~
heroic
Aah! Here's the video:
[https://youtu.be/XVQCJsgmQ0w](https://youtu.be/XVQCJsgmQ0w)

