
Ask HN: Getting a math degree as a working adult? - darkxanthos
My question: I've found a math degree to pursue, what (1st or 2nd hand experience-based) feedback can you provide as advice?<p>I am thinking of enrolling in this online BA in Mathematics program through Southern New Hampshire University: http://www.snhu.edu/mathematics-BA-online.asp<p>I'm a software engineer already working in the field I want to be in for the next 5-10 years (data logging and analysis).<p>I want to get a degree in math for a couple reasons:
a) For me. I've always deep down wanted a degree but couldn't admit it to myself. I would for whatever reason regret it if I never earned a degree.
b) When giving people advice around data I would like to train myself around many of the biases we are all so prone to. Learning though on the job in a business intelligence role seems like a very expensive feedback loop. (Imagine making a mistake in a recommendation that costs the company millions of dollars)
c) I would like to eventually move into more machine learning and recognize that for now and the foreseeable future statistics and other math will play a HUGE role in that. For jobs in this realm a masters degree is very much encouraged.<p>Some background on me: My company and myself all work remotely so the discipline that an online degree requires isn't at all an issue for me. Also I am a self taught software engineer so I'm looking forward to taking whatever I learn through my courses and building on top of it as much as possible as I go.<p>Just to clarify my question is: I've found a math degree to pursue, what (1st or 2nd hand experience-based) feedback can you provide as advice?
======
pflats
Backgroud: I have a BS in mathematics, and teach high-school mathematics. I'm
working on my MS in applied mathematics part-time (in an actual classroom),
but I'm considering switching over to a PhD program.

How much math have you studied? How much CS? Do you like proofs?

A degree in math is not just about knowing statistics and algorithms. You need
to have the dedication to plug away at a seemingly dense problem, without
visible success, for often hours at a time. If you've done a lot of
programming, you might have the skill set for this already.

Beyond that, the best advice I can give to any math student is this: whether
or not your teacher checks your homework is irrelevant. Do every assignment,
and make sure you understand it. If you don't do so, you're probably in for a
rude awakening on a test. There might be a level you can rise to, in HS or in
college, without doing homework, but you will eventually hit the ceiling.

I assume an online course is twice as hard in this regard, as it's easier to
put on the back burner. Start out taking only one class at a time. Get used to
the level of work you'll have to put into it. It will probably be more than
you're expecting.

Finally, while I can't say anything about the university you've picked out, I
will warn you: a number of my math/science professors mocked the idea of
getting a Bachelor of Arts in the hard Sciences, because BAs don't go as
deeply into the subject matter as a BS. If you're not planning on a career
change into engineering, academia or the sciences, this probably doesn't
affect you, and I wouldn't worry about it. Just be aware of the bias.

~~~
excuse-me
>because BAs don't go as deeply into the subject matter as a BS

Some places, like Oxford and Cambridge, only give BAs not BSs - so it's not
always a good guide unless you know the institute.

~~~
apawloski
Oxford and Cambridge are certainly exceptions. In general, if an institution
offers both a BS and BA in the same subject (at least in the sciences), the BS
tends to be more technical.

I'm not saying this to diminish the value of a BA, because what their
curriculums lack in technical equivalence are often compensated for in breadth
and general well-roundedness.

Of course this is not hard fact, but it's a generally correct pattern in
American universities.

~~~
pflats
I hope that it was clear that I wasn't trying to diminish the value of a BA
either. There is definite merit to wanting more breadth than depth, especially
if you already have a job. I just wanted the OP to be aware of the biases out
there. The school he's looking at doesn't offer a BS in Math, but it does
offer other BSes.

~~~
tzs
> The school he's looking at doesn't offer a BS in Math, but it does offer
> other BSes.

Sounds similar to UC Berkeley. The do offer BSes, but not in math.

Here are some majors that offer only BA, not BS:

    
    
       math, applied math, physics, earth and planetary sciences,
       molecular and cell biology, astrophysics
    

Here are some majors that offer only BS, not BA:

    
    
       chemical engineering, nutritional science,
       molecular environmental biology, molecular
       toxicology, business administration,
       engineering
    

And here are some that offer both:

    
    
       chemistry, computer science, environmental sciences
    

The reason the latter three offer both is that you can take these from two
different colleges. You can get your computer science degree, for instance,
from the College of Engineering, in which case it is a BS, or from the College
of Letters and Science, in which case it is a BA.

There are also schools where the only difference between the BA and BS is in
the requirements for electives outside your major. For instance, I recall one
school where a BA required a certain number of units in a foreign language.
The BA and BS required the same total number of units and the same required
courses in the major--the BA simply required that you include in your
electives a foreign language.

There are even schools where the requirements for BA and BS are exactly the
same. When you fill out the form where you tell them how you want your name
spelled on your diploma, you also check a box to say whether you want it to be
a BA or BS.

When interviewing a candidate, you really should place no stock whatsoever in
BA vs. BS, unless you _know_ that his school offers both and you _know_ the
differences between them. There are just too many exceptions to make any kind
of generalization about the two that won't give too high of a
misclassification risk.

------
Nrsolis
I did this but with a CS degree from an Ivy-League university. I already had
two years of credit under my belt when I went back to school and it took me
four years of study half-time and all three semesters (Fall/Spring/Summer)
during the year to finish. Best thing I ever did.

Let me give you some advice:

1\. Start slow. Take one class to start with. Get used to the pace of
lecture/study and getting your assignments done. It's very hard to work full
time and also study. You will need uninterrupted space and time to get your
work done.

2\. If you're taking online classes, you MUST be sure that your teaching
fellow/assistant and professor are willing to communicate via email or instant
message. If you can attend office hours DO IT. It helps for a professor to see
you as a serious student and not as a faceless email address. GO EARLY in the
semester to office hours and make it a regular thing. THIS PAYS DIVIDENDS AT
GRADING TIME.

3\. Make sure your school is a "real" school. Don't go to one of those for-
profit schools. Make sure that your school is regionally accredited by the
REAL accrediting agencies, not the fake ones that are set up by the for-profit
schools.

4\. Connect with another student (or students) and work with them. Just like
for startups, it helps to be "in it" with someone else.

Good luck.

P.S. One of the guys I helped get through my program was a father of five kids
(and one of the way) and he took two flights each way one day a week for a
year to attend class. After 3 years he finished. He also held down a full-time
job while he did this. It's do-able. You just have to commit yourself to doing
it.

EDIT: more advice.

~~~
darkxanthos
This is great advice, thanks! Discerning the fake accreditation from the real
is somewhat difficult. I had done some searching though and this school seems
to be accredited by the same place that accredits dartmouth so I think it's
legit. How can I figure out if the accreditation is worth it's salt?

Thank you again!

~~~
Nrsolis
This guide: [http://www.amazon.com/Bears-Earning-Degrees-Distance-
Learnin...](http://www.amazon.com/Bears-Earning-Degrees-Distance-
Learning/dp/1580082025)

goes a long way towards helping you figure out whats legit and what's not.

Generally speaking though, you want a program that's "regionally" accredited.
Here's a link:

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regional_accreditation>

Just an FYI: I've heard that some schools that were non-profit and independent
have been purchased by for-profit entities mainly for their accreditation.
Caveat emptor.

FWIW, most "pure" degrees from liberal-arts or engineering schools are
probably OK. If your candidate school has a sports program, it's probably OK.
Go visit the university. Meet the administrative officials and check out the
student body. See if they have a library. There are lots of "tells" that will
alert you to the possibility that your program is more about collecting money
than offering a valuable educational experience.

Just do your checking beforehand. You dont want to find out halfway through
that your degree isn't worth the time or money. Dont forget that all programs
within a school aren't created equally. I spent six months doing due diligence
on my program and the school is VERY well known.

~~~
darkxanthos
Thanks! Bought it. Also looks like it it is regionally accredited but I'm not
sure about my specific program though. That's something I'll check out
tomorrow.

------
raheemm
You may want to check out this blog written by Scott Young who is pursuing an
MIT computer science degree on his own, all from their online classes.

<http://www.scotthyoung.com/blog/2012/07/04/the-diy-degree/>

~~~
wilfra
He had me right up until he revealed (at the very end) that the whole thing is
about getting a degree from a completely unknown mail-order University. Brand
matters in higher education. UConn degree > what he got. He does a very good
job of selling himself and his degree so he may be able to overcome it, but
it's self-delusion if he actually thinks he's better off with the degree he
has. If he applied those same salesmanship skills to the UConn degree and
making himself stand out with that, he'd be better off than he is now -
speaking strictly in terms of academic pedigree and how he is perceived by
potential employers.

~~~
DASD
I'm not sure how you attribute "unknown mail-order University" to Excelsior.
I'm willing to guess that a fair number of HR managers and several million
U.S. service members(and obviously their families as well) and veterans might
know very well the name of this institution. Look up Regents College if you're
interested to know the history.

------
noblethrasher
Simplest advice: Structure your schedule so that you can devote one semester
each to the proof-based courses: Abstract/Modern Algebra and Real Analysis.

My Story:

I earned a BS in mathematics (and BA in Philosophy/History) as a working adult
(late twenties – early thirties, tech support and later developer) with a 1.5
hour commute between work and school.

I didn't have any significant difficulty until Real Analysis. That's usually
the "weed-out" course for math majors and for which absolutely _none_ of my
programming experience prepared me[1]. I ended up switching to
Philosophy/History for a while but luckily got the confidence to try Real
Analysis again before completely giving up on the math degree.

I think anyone with an aptitude for programming will be fine in the math
courses that are science and engineering-oriented. However, real math is about
reading and doing proofs; if you have not done much of that I would try to
arrange the schedule so that you end up studying stuff like Real Analysis and
Abstract/Modern Algebra exclusively in a semester.

[1] In fact, my programming experience probably hurt me because I was overly
focused on the “fine logic” aspect of proof writing rather than trying to
understand the big picture.

~~~
mdm_
I'm starting part-time study for a joint honors degree in philosophy/math at
the university where I work as a full-time web dev this September, ten days
before my 30th birthday. I'm glad to hear that other people have been there,
done that, and got through it.

~~~
noblethrasher
Neat.

You and I will have a _very_ similar story. The only difference is that I
started working as a full-time web developer at my university after I was
already taking classes here... I got the job a couple of weeks after my 30th
birthday.

------
rytis
Although the popular trend is against a formal higher education I would
strongly advice you to pursue your decision/wish to get a degree. Yes, perhaps
you could obtain the same level of knowledge and understanding throug the
studies of your own, but I found that getting formal education gives a lot
more - not only you learn the subject, but you also get to understand the
methods of obtaining the knowledge. And this experience, at least for me, was
far more important. Can you do this on your own? Perhaps, but I doubt it.

~~~
kintamanimatt
> you also get to understand the methods of obtaining the knowledge

I don't understand what you mean by this at all.

~~~
excuse-me
Learning how to learn is far more important than knowing something.

That's why maths/physics PhDs are more valuable in industry than BSc's in the
exact detailed topic.

~~~
khyryk
Is this reflected in earnings and unemployment rates?

------
apawloski
I don't have any feedback on online programs or working while getting a
degree, but I do have some thoughts on pursuing a math degree with your goals
in mind:

1\. Although there is a lot of math in computer science, a typical math
curriculum will take you well outside of what might be applicable to your
goals in computer science. This might not be important to you, but it's
something you should keep in mind as you think about _why_ you want this
degree.

2\. I looked at the curriculum you linked, and, with your goals in mind, it
actually looks pretty reasonable in terms of rigor and relevance. Based on
your goals, regression analysis will be a critical subject. But, and I don't
want to paint this in too negative a color, most undergrad curriculums I know
go further that this program does.

3\. Unless your heart's already set on this program, or there are other
considerations besides what you've listed, I'd actually suggest looking at
other programs first. If what you want is a math degree, than this might be a
good fit. But if what you want is a degree that will be most helpful in
statistics/data analysis and machine learning (which you listed as important
to you) I'd suggest looking at either an Applied Math program or a CS degree.
I don't know your background, but there _are_ Masters programs in CS that
don't require an undergrad degree. You would still need the equivalent working
knowledge of a BS in CS, though.

------
altrego99
I have the same question about computer science.

The fact is, without the degree you cannot seem to get into a job that you
like, which is about programming. I have learned unfortunately that this is
true within a company I work - and I am sure the prejudices will be a lot more
if I apply outside.

To elaborate, I have an advanced degree in statistics, but none in comp
science. What I have is though interest, and I know I am better than the lot
who typically apply for such jobs. I approached this programming oriented
team, and the senior leadership were thoroughly impressed - some people in
that team (at senior position than mine) actually agreed that they cannot do
what many things that I have already done and showcased.

Then I did an 'evaluation' project with them, again in a month I created
something that was beyond what they would expect from their own. In the end
when I was told that they cannot hire me now because of some leadership
decisions - as the current objective is to procure 'x%' of people with com-
science degree in the team and that leaves no room for my background.

Though I doubt if I will approach that particular team again (this move
frankly speaks of their guts - and I am utterly doubtful of how they can
defend me in the future too if I join), I think hiring PhD's may be the norm
in the industry - e.g. in other farms like Google too.

I am happy in what I am doing, but I don't like doors being closed to me just
because of the background - and there is a chance that I will be happier in a
programming oriented job. So, even though as of now it is a far away thought,
is there a way for me to get a PhD while working in my field?

~~~
darkxanthos
Interestingly I actually have the Opposite "problem." I don't need the degree.
Somehow I've managed to become a good engineer making great money. That's why
I could never commit before. I made it such an economic choice. Now I'm
letting it be an emotional/intellectual one and it's become obvious I need to
go back.

It sounds like you're on track though. Keep at making personal projects and
applying for any programmIng job you think you might enjoy eventually you'll
find he intersection of the right portfolio and right opportunity. Good luck!

~~~
Nrsolis
Let me tell you my story:

I got two years of college under mt belt and had to leave school for many
reasons. Went to another university a year later to try and finish and got
caught up in the building Internet boom/bust. The experience I gained was VERY
valuable and it was definitely the right decision to leave school to pursue my
career, but I had the nagging sense that I was missing out on some jobs
because I didn't have that degree.

So I found a company that would help me pay for part of my education via
tuition assistance and had relatively regular hours and went to it. When I
finished the degree, I changed jobs and got a 60% pay raise.

Mind you, I already had a six-figure income BEFORE the degree.

Since then, I've changed jobs twice and each job has been more rewarding and
better paying that the last. I definitely feel like my program (which was from
a well-known school) helps to open doors. I feel like the degree added a
multiplier to my efforts that helps me to earn credibility and break through
barriers.

Like it or not, the lack of that degree will subject you to prejudice you wont
be fully aware of until you're freed from it. You can certainly be successful
without the degree, but having it makes enough of a difference that I'd be
hard pressed to recommend someone go without it unless they were clearly an
exceptional individual with a clear goal for what they wanted to do in their
lives.

~~~
darkxanthos
I don't really like that that's true but I've noticed that prejudice even in
myself. Thanks for sharing this. It's one more reason to hold onto.

------
bricestacey
I had a pretty intense full-time job (managing an academic library's digital
services) and going to school part-time to earn my BS in CS. It was incredibly
difficult to manage my time.

Every semester I would work 9-5, take classes from 6-10, go home, fall asleep,
rinse and repeat. I had no time to study, but when I did, I often did other
things because I had no energy or motivation. I did this for four years (and I
already had 2 years of college prior to this!). It was exhausting.

My only suggestion would be to take a light workload and aim to master the
subject. I breezed through most of my classes because I already knew the
material. For tougher subjects (e.g. statistics, compilers) I struggled. The
material wasn't that hard, but because I didn't take it too seriously at the
start (when it was easy) I fell behind due to weak understanding of core
concepts. Never fall into that trap. Commit to studying consistently,
seriously, and keeping at pace with the class.

I only did this because I wanted a degree. I think it's a piece of trash, but
I wanted a little bit of security in life (I was in my early 20s and just
getting started). Since you want to learn for learning's sake, commit to that.
Don't try and cut corners.

------
is74
A degree in mathematics requires a very large amount of effort and discipline,
especially given your other obligations. Is this effort best spent on a
mathematics degree, or maybe you could spend this effort differently and get
what you want faster?

While point a) is a good reason to get a mathematics degree, points b) and c)
are not. For point b), machine learning and statistics are much more
appropriate than mathematics, and for point c), it is worth knowing that
machine learning requires a fairly small subset of the mathematics you'd learn
in a math degree. For example, a math degree covers many areas of mathematics
(such as a heavy focus on proofs, abstract algebra, complex analysis and
topology) that have no bearing on statistics and on practical machine
learning. Conversely, a math degree also does not focus on statistics and
probability, which are essential for data analysis.

Thus were I in your shoes, I would only study the math that is necessary to
understand statistics and machine learning, and would start taking a machine
learning course. The only math you need is multivariate calculus, linear
algebra, and probability.

------
mdlthree
My background: Double major in Mathematics and Statistics. I am currently
studying for a masters in Industrial Engineering BECAUSE my math/stats degree
could not secure me a job after looking for 1.5 years. People don't see the
value in math and you can't make them. That's why I am going to trick them by
getting a degree with "engineer" in the title and maybe I can finally make it
past the HR robot resume scanners.

1.The course content looks ok. There is always some sort of crap class that
the department "thinks" you should take. For you it is Mat 380 Error-
correction Codes. Out of the classes you get to pick, you should absolutely
consider "QSO 320-Intro to Management Science". Mathematics departments (I
have been through about 4 different ones) do a terrible job of application.
None of your classes except QSO 320 will have day to day usefulness.

2.If you have not paid for this degree yet I would encourage you to look up
programs for the following departments. Management Science, Operations
Research, Operations Management, Business Intelligence, Data Science. They
usually have just enough theory to carry you but focus on problem solving
methods and decision making.

3.If your future goal is to go on to a masters then to some sort of research
based work, then a math degree is a great jumping point. When ever I have come
into a practical application course, I crush the theory and have an advantage
in the ease of absorbing the knowledge. If you are not really sure about
research/MS/PHd I strongly advise against this plan. You will be disappointed
in how little people understand the how to leverage math skills.

In general, school is where you pay money for the privilege of doing homework
and writing tests subject to the human faults of a non-perfect professor. I
would advise you to look at the course syllabi for the following Coursera
classes. So much good content coming from there. At least you will be more
knowledgeable of the breadth in these subjects. \-
<https://www.coursera.org/category/cs-ai> \-
<https://www.coursera.org/category/stats> \-
<https://www.coursera.org/category/cs-theory> \-
<https://www.coursera.org/course/operations>

The funny thing about that list is none of them are from the mathematics
category. Math is pervasive but struggles to compete without context. Take
courses with context, unless you really want to pursue an academic career.

~~~
walrus
> 1\. [...] There is always some sort of crap class that the department
> "thinks" you should take. For you it is Mat 380 Error-correction Codes.

Error correcting codes are fun! Taking a class on coding theory gave me some
insight on compression, cryptography, and reliable data storage/transmission.

------
cschmidt
I have a Ph.D. in engineering, which entailed a great deal of math. I do a lot
of machine learning now. I think you'll find that proofs are the great divide
between "real" math, and the more applied stuff you use in ML or CS. I suppose
it is kind of obvious, but the math that _isn't_ "applied" will have very
little application in any other aspects of your life.

I do get a little queasy about the for-profit schools like SNHU. It is
convenient, but I'm not so sure that the quality will be that good. Your peers
in these classes are probably not going to be like HN. Are there any regular
non-profit schools near you that might offer online classes as well?

If I were paying for online classes out of my pocket, I'd look at something
like the Stanford Center for Professional Development.

[http://scpd.stanford.edu/public/category/courseCategoryCerti...](http://scpd.stanford.edu/public/category/courseCategoryCertificateProfile.do?method=load&certificateId=1209602)

They have some interesting Data Mining and ML related stuff.

~~~
darkxanthos
Interestingly SNHU is a non-profit from what I've read though I'll admit I
don't know what the real difference between that for profit is... People are
still making money y'know?

Where did you see them labelled as a for profit? Or are you referring to them
being a private university?

~~~
cschmidt
My previous job morphed from being something quite interesting, to a company
running a jobs website that sold education leads. Before I left, I ran the
traffic to a website selling education leads. It was many of the big online
players. You should be aware that many of these schools had a pretty shady
business model. Their students would get student loans, fail to finish their
degrees, and default on their loans. That was Ok from the schools point of
view, because for a year or two the schools were charging fairly high tuition
rates. They were essentially programs for transferring money from the federal
government (in the form of loans) to the schools. These are the so-called "for
profit" schools. It is not their "for profit"-ness that was the problem, if
you will, but the way they treated their students. The government is starting
to really crack down on these abusive practices (bad for both students and the
government). Many of the students were of a fairly low income background, who
had never been to college. There are a number of news documentaries about
this, under the "for-profit" label. It seemed from me, on the outside, that
most of these students would have been better served taking classes for much
less at a local community college.

I am only aware of SNHU in the sense that they were buying leads in the same
space as the for-profit companies. You are right that technically they seem to
be a traditional non-profit college, that has started an online program.
However, that online program seems to be the tail wagging the dog in this
case.....

[http://www.fastcompany.com/most-innovative-
companies/2012/so...](http://www.fastcompany.com/most-innovative-
companies/2012/southern-new-hampshire-university)

I am not saying that they are bad - I certainly _don't know_ that. But before
I signed up, I would spend a few evening Googling their specific reputation. I
would worry that this school is simply trying to hide the same "for profit"
motives in a non-profit cover. I know there are other players that are doing
this exact thing, by taking over a small traditional school. In particular,
find out what their graduation and retention rates are for their online
students. What educational backgrounds do the students have? Is their program
going to be of a quality that you'll be happy with?

There are a lot of very shady schools in this space. Make dead sure that
you're not getting into something you'll regret. I guess, in short, _Caveat
emptor_ , there are lot of bad online degree programs.

Feel free to contact me directly (email in profile) if you have any other
questions.

------
misiti3780
I have an MS in Applied Math and work in machine learning (for the past 3
years). The only real advice I can give is I am not sure how much a BS will
help (it certainly wont hurt) you with getting a job in machine learning. I
ended up here but I spent my entire MS studying wavelets and signal
processing. I did take a few courses in machine learning, but nothing super
crazy.

I think if were in your position, I would spend six months taking free
courses, writing some open source projects, making some cool visualizations
with d3.js, and then leveraging that to try to get a job (or transition into a
job). If I was hiring someone for a position in ML at my company, I would be
more interested in seeing that type of stuff than asking questions like "How
does an SVM work" or "Where did you get your BS in Math from?".

With that said, if you can afford the classes, have time to put in (a lot of
time to really understand math), and you have always wanted to get a degree,
go for it, and dont let anyone here stop you.

~~~
darkxanthos
I think if I were only worried about a job I wouldn't go at all as I recently
moved onto the Business Intelligence team at work because of how passionate
and excited I am about the subject. I want more than I job, I want to deeply
understand what I'm doing and excel at it. I'm going less for the short path
(that I took in programming) and more for the most enriching.

Thanks for your feedback! I really appreciate it.

------
mdkess
Nothing hurts more than regret. If you are serious about this, go for it. to
test yourself, grab a Calculus book - I recommend Stewart's Calculus - and
challenge yourself to work though it at a reasonable, but predetermined pace
(say 1 chapter per week).

------
mattdeboard
How will you pay for it? Furthermore, how long will it take this (for now)
theoretical career in ML which will require an MS to pay off the money you
sunk into your degree?

Can you afford it mentally? How much time and effort can you afford to siphon
away from your work to excel at your math studies? You can't go full-bore on
both.

While some on HN I'm sure have been working software engineers AND pursued a
bachelor's degree AND received it in only 4 years (or less, even), the truth
is that it is very, very difficult. There will be a lot of misery, and a lot
of time & money spent on something that, for now, is over a decade away.

~~~
darkxanthos
I have successful career as a software engineer already so I'll be paying out
of pocket. Time wise I've been discussin this with a friend who is in college
in his thirties and I will probably follow in his footsteps and stop my
personal programming projects while I attend.

Also since my current role at work is in the same vein what I learn will
directly and immediately apply to work do that help lessen the impact at work.
Even so it will be tough. Very much so you're right.

------
chr15
I've found classes in graph theory, linear algebra, probability, and
statistics to be the most useful for me. Probability and statistics have much
more practical applications outside the classroom.

I received a minor in math, and it's been more practical than my major
(information systems). It helps you frame and understand the world
differently.

Classes get much tougher once you start doing math with letters instead of
numbers (usually linear algebra and up), because things transition from
computation to understanding the properties of numbers.

------
alinajaf
Hi there. No advice, I'm in a similar situation (i.e. a software engineer who
wants to get a degree).

I have a degree in CS, but by 30 (26 now) I want to be enrolled in a physics
degree, followed by something in the vicinity of aerospace
engineering/robotics.

This is not because I think it will be useful for work, just because they're
subjects I'm interested in and I wish I had time to be on the cutting edge of
these fields. I aim to support myself + my family through some sort of SaaS
product(s), so working hard on that at the moment.

Either way, best of luck!

------
munin
I'm working on my undergrad degree while working. it really sucks. be prepared
for 4-6 years of having no friends and never sleeping. you will probably burn
out in 2 years but stick with it.

I also work remotely and this helps but only a little. take your current
schedule and subtract 25 hours a week from it. you won't be left with much,
especially if you have a family.

------
propercoil
third year of my cs degree (which is basically a math degree for the first two
years) and only one thing comes to my mind seeing ~12 ppl i knew that drop out
from their math degree:

If you study for a math degree you will probably be a mathematician.

let that sink in for a while because shockingly people discover that later on.

~~~
darkxanthos
Haha that's a great point I hadn't considered. Luckily I'm good with that. I
don't want to be "just a programmer" I want to have real skills that my
programmIng ability can augment. That's my mental model for a recipe for
success. Also coincidentally I'm drawn to study actuarial sciences if not for
the huge regulation and the boring environment.

Thanks!

------
decasteve
First hand experience. Almost identical background, self-taught teenager
started working professionally at 18 with very little formal training. 33
years old now and almost completed a part-time math degree. (2-1/2 years to
go)

Advice: don't just pursue the math that you think will directly benefit your
software career.

I went into my part-time math degree thinking that because I was a self taught
programmer the limiting factor in my career was lack of exposure to higher
maths.

I ended up discovering that the math I enjoyed the most was the more
theoretical stuff in analysis, topology, category theory, abstract algebra,
etc. The applied math came easier, and I probably could have self-taught most
of it, but the challenging pure math subjects have been most rewarding.

~~~
xwowsersx
Thanks for sharing. Mind if I ask where you're getting the degree from?

~~~
decasteve
Mount Allison University (Canada)

------
1337biz
Is this going to be your first undergraduate degree or do you already hold a
bachelors? Just in case you have something to built on - there are a bunch of
top notch Universities offering Masters in Applied Mathematics via Distance:

Columbia University: <http://www.cvn.columbia.edu/app_math_MS.php>

Penn State: [http://www.worldcampus.psu.edu/degrees-and-
certificates/appl...](http://www.worldcampus.psu.edu/degrees-and-
certificates/applied-statistics-masters/overview)

University of Washington: <http://www.amathonline.uw.edu/>

~~~
darkxanthos
Yes! This is where I want to get to. I don't currently have any degree.

------
JeffBlauser
I worked in IT into my late 30's before going to school for some of the
reasons you list. I got so much out of it. When you go back, you know which
courses will directly help you, and you will probably learn many new things
about where your strengths and weaknesses are. This is how your situation is
different from many who enter college directly from high school who may not
know what they want to do. Self learning on the job got me where I was, but
the education got me further. Plus it really helped how I study and learn, so
even the softer skills I learned prove beneficial today. Good Luck!

------
chubot
What makes you know that that's the right degree for you?

When you say "math degree", I don't think of something that applies to machine
learning all that much! :)

Math is a huge field, and undegrad math covers a big swath of it. Have you
taken a stats course yet? I would consider just taking a stats course first,
and then maybe asking anybody you meet with similar interests in data
logging/analysis what the relevant courses are to take.

That said, looking over the summary on that page, it does seem more "applied"
than most math degrees, which is probably what you want.

~~~
darkxanthos
Yeah the program has some courses that seem directly applicable to my goals.
Also, I have taken an online free course in statistics and probability from
Carnegie Mellon and loved it.

I'm pretty excited by the school. It seems exactly what I want in a BA and
seems well accredited as well which can be hard to find in an online program.

Thanks for your input!

------
drumdance
I'm a programmer who never studied or CS or even took college level math. I'd
like to do something like this too, though I don't want or need a degree. I'd
just like to have a deeper understanding of algorithms and how they are used
in things like graphics, animation, statistics, data visualization etc. I'd
like to audit some classes at the local university but am not sure where I
should start. Intro to statistics? College level calculus?

~~~
excuse-me
<https://www.coursera.org> or my own personal favorite
<http://www.udacity.com/>

But you have to do the work, all the problem sets, and the exam - just having
the youtube video open in a window isn't enough

------
philh
> When giving people advice around data I would like to train myself around
> many of the biases we are all so prone to.

A math degree is not the best way to go about this. (I just got one myself.)
It will teach you to think clearly about groups, graphs, metric spaces and all
that, but it won't teach you to think clearly in real life. That's something
you'll need to learn elsewhere; although it might be true that a math degree
will help you to learn.

~~~
Someone
I (dis)agree with you. One thing that a math degree will learn you very, very
well is the spotting of gaps in logic. That is very applicable in e.g.
software engineering/programming. For example, it will make you spot missing
cases in long if/else if/else chains, both in code and in requirements. In the
latter case, the risk is that you will get distracted by minor holes that do
not really matter at the scope, and that other people may see as "not worth
discussing now, as it distracts from the main course.".

Also, reading <http://www.snhu.edu/mathematics-BA-online.asp>, my main thought
was "do they call THAT a math degree?" At the very least, I would put a
sticker "applied" on that. That is a judgment, but not one that judges one
item as better than the other. For your ambition in machine learning, it will
probably be tons more useful than what I (and from his reply, I guess philh)
think about when hearing the term.

For an impression of the difference: With a MS in (abstract) mathematics, you
will be able to prove properties of some algorithm or formula from some
preconditions, and you may be able to generalize them to some highly abstract
terminology (for an example, see
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Measure_(mathematics)>, which grew about
mathematicians thinking deeply about what the concept 'area' means) but you
need not get any experience in recognizing those preconditions. As an applied
mathematician, it is more important to have a good intuition on when an
approach works then to have a good understanding on whether/why it works in
esoteric cases (infinite dimensions, with less than two inputs, etc)

------
EToS
Could be worth investigating some of the free online courses that MIT and
other Big Universities run.. also experience a taster of studying before
getting into a longer term course

I've been looking at Masters courses online recently, but for 9k and very
little added monetary gain, i've decided it might be more rewarding to run a
side project/business

------
pfortuny
Forget about "Mathematics" and study "Statistics", man. You will never need
the Maths stuff for your job.

And notice I am an Algebraic Geometer, not a funny CS. <http://pfortuny.net>

Enjoy the knowledge but do not strive for what you do not need unless you do
it just for fun (which does NOT look so to me).

------
keva161
Sorry to ask in an existing topic but im looking for a online math degree also
in the UK.

Can anyone provide institutions apart from the open university which offer
this?

------
devgutt
Don't you need a degree to self call "software engineer"? I'm outside US.
Serious question here, just to know what North Americans consider SE.

~~~
darkxanthos
Meh. If only there were some standard around it :-/

~~~
devgutt
like this? <http://www.bls.gov/soc/2010/soc150000.htm#15-1100>

~~~
darkxanthos
Am I crazy or is software engineer not listed? I guess using that at all goes
against your "standard"? Hmm.

------
criveros
Why math and not computer science?

------
earl
.02 from someone who does data analysis / ML and has an undergrad in math:

A math undergrad is a nearly total waste of time. If you want to do data
analysis, learn to do data analysis. Real analysis and proofs and abstract
algebra and diffeq are fascinating yet utter wastes of time.

If you want to learn useful stuff, take: applied calc, applied linear algebra,
applied probability, applied stats, applied ML. And nothing else. All the
skills you build proving stuff are, at best, tangential. And you don't need a
bit of it to do things like derive gibbs samplers or EM samplers.

If you can take an activity such as someone interacting with ads, model that
as a graphical model, derive a gibbs sampler and implement it, you'll be
worlds ahead of even most grad students. Focus on getting there and it should
be great for your career. But a math degree is just a shiny distraction.

Oh, and one more thing: if you want to work in a particular area, then a
degree _in that area_ may be useful. Eg bio, genetics, chemistry, fluids,
optics, etc.

edit2: Please don't think I'm arguing against you getting a math degree. If
you want one, get one. Just understand it's probably at least 80% intellectual
masturbation instead of job skills. For example, as far as I can see in
production machine learning, there is virtually no integration. Oh there are
integrals all over the place but none of them are feasible and they'll all
have to be numerically evaluated or worked around. So all those integration
skills people spend endless hours learning are basically useless because the
real world has virtually zero nice integrals. So understanding how to
manipulate integrals and how to numerically evaluate them is very valuable,
but not well covered in virtually all calc classes.

edit3: consider looking at the community colleges in your state. They often
are stupid cheap and offer online courses.

~~~
tgrass
Regarding your opening line: leave it to a mathematician to forgo units. I
assume you meant $0.02.

:)

\- a sarcastic engineer.

------
excuse-me
I can't offer any specific advice about the place but I can say - go for it.

Apart from the personal satisfaction of being a mathematician you go straight
to the top of my interview list. Anyone with the dedication and commitment to
do a maths degree on their own is the sort of person I want to talk to

My (admittedly personal and biased) guide is maths/physics and pref. advanced
degrees first.

Followed by CS degrees from really top notch schools and then I ask why, if
they are so smart they didn't do maths/physics at MIT? Acceptable answer is a
complete overarching love of computer science.

Followed by no formal qualification devs - with some evidence that they have
read/learned more than simply the SDK they were using.

And last on the list are CS grads from some no-name, anyone can get in, CS
school. People who did a CS degree because their school counselor said it
would get them a well paid job.

~~~
derefr
And here I'm a no-formal-qualification dev with many years of experience, now
considering getting a CS degree from a no-name anyone-can-get-in school just
because it's a prerequisite to being allowed into the US on an H1B or TN visa
(because, as HN discussed yesterday[1], Canada has no tech scene.) You'd skip
over me, no?

[1] <http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4275634>

~~~
excuse-me
There are no absolute statements.

I was just highlighting that while many bad jobs insist on a CS degree, many
good ones treat a CS degree with some suspicion.

See also
[http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/ThePerilsofJavaSchool...](http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/ThePerilsofJavaSchools.html)

~~~
jfoutz
"There are no absolute statements."

This is exactly the kind of trap that will send a mathematician off on a few
minute or years long tangent.

I know it contributes little; given the context i couldn't resist.

~~~
excuse-me
It was intended as a Godel-joke !

------
edgar_loc1
zaide arrieta

