
A phony STEM shortage and the scandal of engineering visas - supercanuck
http://www.latimes.com/business/hiltzik/la-fi-mh-the-scandal-of-engineering-visas-20160226-column.html
======
diogenescynic
In my opinion, the real fix is to make the H-1B 'lottery' into an auction.
Instead of accepting 65,000 H-1Bs at random--accept the 65,000 H-1Bs with the
highest wages. That way we are getting the immigrants with the highest valued
skills and stopping companies like Cognizant and Infosys that game the
immigration system by applying for the cheapest H-1Bs possible. Look at the
biggest H-1B recipients: [http://www.myvisajobs.com/Reports/2015-H1B-Visa-
Sponsor.aspx](http://www.myvisajobs.com/Reports/2015-H1B-Visa-Sponsor.aspx)
It's all low quality outsourcing shops like Cognizant and Infosys.

If you've ever applied for an H-1B then you know how easy it is to abuse the
prevailing wages. The process to evaluate the skills of the applicant is
simply filling out a form online for their experience level, job title, and
location. Give it a test here:
[http://www.flcdatacenter.com/OesWizardStart.aspx](http://www.flcdatacenter.com/OesWizardStart.aspx)
It's very easy to game their job title and location to lower the salary.

Here is the law firm Cohen & Grigsby advising other employers in running
classified ads with the goal of NOT finding any qualified applicants, and the
steps they go through to disqualify even the most qualified Americans in order
to secure green cards for H-1B workers:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TCbFEgFajGU](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TCbFEgFajGU)
This seems like clear fraud. The issue I have with H-1Bs is when companies
lie/cheat/commit fraud to outsource jobs that Americans do want and are
qualified/willing to do, all for the sake of driving down wages.

~~~
hwstar
I agree, and these people should be offered a green card as soon as they start
with the employer.

~~~
dominotw
>should be offered a green card as soon as they start with the employer.

they can jump ship to a big company like google after your small startup went
through the hassle of lawyers/visa fees/ govt fees ect.

~~~
hwstar
Maybe you should have paid them as much as what they would make at Google
then. Having to compete on salary,benefits, and working environment is the
true meaning of an open and free market, not a rigged market as the current
H-1B system is.

~~~
yummyfajitas
Then whoever poaches them can just offer salary + cost of getting the visa.
It's always cheaper to freeload off the guy who paid for the visa.

The right solution is that if google or whoever hires an H1B 1 year into a 3
year visa, they need to pay for 2/3 of the cost of the visa.

~~~
hwstar
Google in a hypothetical case would then offer a lower salary to cover the
visa cost, and/or deem it too much trouble to bring the H-1B on board. This
leaves the H-1B worker operating in a suboptimal market. The issue of visa
fees does not confront the H-1B employee, only the employer which sponsored
them in the first place. Besides it should cost slighly more to bring in an
H-1B than current parket rates. Maybe then more natives would be hired.

~~~
yummyfajitas
Why would it be beneficial if more (extremely wealthy) natives were hired
rather than (extremely poor) immigrants?

Why would you want to use trade barriers to increase inequality?

~~~
hwstar
Is should be slightly more expensive to bring in immigrants because one of the
governments missions voters expect is to ensure that there is a job market
where there are good well-paying jobs, not a market where it is flooded with
immigrants that have driven down wages. Having American citizens and green
card holders idled or having to work in a lower paying job is not a true free
market because only the employers are benefiting.

Once the domestic pool of potential employers has dried up, then employers
will bring in the slightly more expensive foreign labor.

~~~
yummyfajitas
Why is it the government's mission to harm Indians, harm consumers of software
services, and benefit sellers of software services?

Again, why is creating more inequality, harming the poor, and harming
consumers via rent seeking a good thing?

~~~
blfr
The idealised government's role has always been acting in the interest of its
citizens.

More importantly though: how is not letting Indians into the US harming them?
Are Indians incapable of creating a US-like environment in their own country?
If so, that's an argument to keep them out. If not, why wouldn't they do just
that instead of moving half-way around the world?

~~~
yummyfajitas
Why don't we pass laws saying it's illegal to move out of Flint, MI. Would
such a law harm the people living there who might like to move?

Black Americans in Flint seem incapable of creating a NYC-like environment in
their own city. Is that an argument to prevent them from moving to NY?

And none of this explains why American consumers should pay extra. Apparently
Indian humans count for less than 3/5, but don't American consumers count as
full humans? Why should labor sellers be privileged over consumers?

~~~
blfr
First, it's dishonest to compare a law stopping foreigners from moving in and
a hypothetical one making Flint residents prisoners in their county.

Second, New Yorkers routinely enact regulations to stop unapproved immigrants
from moving in through housing cooperatives for example. And Americans all
around the country do with gated communities.

I lost track of what you're arguing. Are you arguing against freedom of
association? For some sort of forced integration where everyone should be
allowed to move wherever they please regardless of the opinion of people
already living there?

~~~
yummyfajitas
Why is it dishonest? Why is it wrong to make people prisoners in their county,
but not prisoners in their country?

 _I lost track of what you 're arguing. Are you arguing against freedom of
association? For some sort of forced integration where everyone should be
allowed to move wherever they please regardless of the opinion of people
already living there?_

I'm arguing that it's wrong for person A to use violence to prevent person B
from hiring person C, even if that undercuts the wages of person A. I believe
this to be true even if person C was born into an unfavorable group.

None of the arguments you've made explain treating Indians different from
Flintians.

Maybe you are arguing that some arbitrary lines on the map (e.g. countRy
boundaries) deserve moral weight, but not others (e.g. county boundaries)? Is
that your claim?

------
kozikow
I didn't get an H1B visa in the lottery. I didn't magically vanish and made
place for an American engineer. My employer moved me to UK and I got paid very
similar salary.

I know about many USA tech companies increasing size of their European
offices, including Google, Facebook, Microsoft and Palantir. It is bad
situation for everyone. USA general public: Role of USA as the tech capital of
the world is diminished, as there is more intellectual capital elsewhere. My
taxes go to UK rather than to USA. Tech companies: They need to open offshore
offices. Foreign tech workers: There is less choice of companies in Europe
(especially startups). Some people may want to live in USA for various
reasons.

The only potential beneficiaries are American tech workers. I believe that the
benefit is only in the short term. If tech companies could get all engineers
they want into USA, they wouldn't need to open offshore offices. As soon as
offshore office is opened, the company have access to more engineers than they
could import to USA, as not all people are open to relocating to USA,
regardless of Visa situation. Therefore, "value" of an American engineer drops
more.

Edit:typo.

~~~
DyslexicAtheist
>> ... including Google, Facebook, Microsoft and Palantir ...

Palantir is opening up a EU based branch? Where? I think people who work there
should be put on lists and never be allowed to work in a normal company again.
If by now a person still thinks it's ok to work for Palantir they really
should be closely watched.

~~~
Fiahil
First, their EU based _branches_ have been opened for years, the last one
being Paris.

Second, you should defined what is a normal company. They are pretty much the
same as any big tech company, and they are definitively hiring the same
profiles as Google, Facebook or Criteo, in a very similar process.

Last, what makes working for Palantir worst than, let's say, working in
adtech, fintech, or anything resembling a buzzfeed-like mobile social network?

~~~
DyslexicAtheist
Palantir a _normal_ company?

Palantir is helping California police develop controversial license plate
database: [http://www.theverge.com/2013/6/29/4478748/california-
license...](http://www.theverge.com/2013/6/29/4478748/california-license-
plate-reader-database-palantir)

Congressman continues drumbeat on controversial intel system:
[http://security.blogs.cnn.com/2012/08/24/congressman-
continu...](http://security.blogs.cnn.com/2012/08/24/congressman-continues-
drumbeat-on-controversial-intel-system/)

CIA-funded upstart: THE TRUTH about Prism and NSA's web snooping:
[http://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/06/10/palantir_denies_powe...](http://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/06/10/palantir_denies_powering_prism_spy_system/)

Helping Build The Surveillance State Is Good Business: Palantir Gets $196
Million More In Funding:
[https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20130927/17175624683/helpi...](https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20130927/17175624683/helping-
build-surveillance-state-is-good-business-palantir-gets-196-million-more-
funding.shtml)

------
skybrian
Easily fixed, in theory, by letting people holding H1-B visas switch employers
easily. Then they'd make market rate, and there wouldn't be incentive for
companies to sponsor them to cut costs and have captive workers.

In practice, it's impossible because Congress isn't going to do anything.

~~~
neilk
But you can. The H1-B program is designed for all that. The sponsor has to
prove they're paying market-ish rate (in practice it's at the low end of
market, but close enough). And the employee can quit and go to any company
willing to file a little bit of paperwork.

But that's IF you're the kind of worker the H1-B was designed to allow into
the USA – someone highly skilled and in demand, with the cultural competence
to navigate US society. The hordes of TATA people, I don't know.

The real issue with the H-1B (in my opinion) is that you need to jump to a new
employer very quickly if you quit. You can't quit a bad situation and then
spend a couple of months trying to get a better one.

~~~
throwaway11221
It's still hard. I'm an H1B worker.

I came to the US for my MBA (from a good school), graduated in the top 2% of
my class with a 3.94 GPA. I got a job with a Fortune 150 company. My starting
salary was 94K, and now I make more than 150K. All this happened in the last 4
years.

I am not "cheap labor" and I don't work in IT. I am highly skilled (I'm a
lawyer with an MBA - it's not all that common). I have an approved green card
application.

But - I'm from India, and there's a LONG line of people ahead of me waiting
for green cards. It will take 5-7 years to get a green card. In the meanwhile,
I have received job offers where I would get paid more - nearly 200K in one
instance. But I'm unwilling to take those offers because it would mean
restarting the green card process. There are ways to keep your spot in line,
but they aren't foolproof, and for me, it's easier to stay with this company
and hold onto my spot rather than take a higher paying job.

So yes, even for people highly skilled and in demand, it's not easy to switch
jobs. There are many factors that you have to look at, and it's stressful
knowing that if you lose your job, you have days to find a new job - or else
give up your life in the US and leave. I have been here for years, I have a
house, cars, friends.. you can't easily just leave everything behind.

The US needs to work on this issue. I agree that people shouldn't be losing
their jobs to cheaper labor, but at the same time, what about highly skilled
immigrants who want to contribute to the US economy and build a life here? The
sword of Damocles hangs over our heads - lose your job and you have 10 days to
find a new one, or get out. Doesn't matter if you've been here 10 years and
have done everything you possibly could to be a good citizen.

~~~
winter_blue
> The sword of Damocles hangs over our heads - lose your job and you have 10
> days to find a new one, or get out

No, you don't even have 10 days -- it's zero days. You are immediately out-of-
status (or in more common parlance, an "illegal immigrant") as soon as your
H-1B employer terminates you.

USCIS has an official FAQ / Q&A on this:
[https://www.uscis.gov/tools/ombudsman-liaison/practical-
immi...](https://www.uscis.gov/tools/ombudsman-liaison/practical-immigration-
consequences-foreign-workers-slowing-economy)

I'll quote them here: _" If the employment ends, this condition is no longer
satisfied and the individual is no longer in a lawful nonimmigrant status and
may be subject to removal proceedings."_ and _" There is no automatic 10-day
or other grace period for terminated employees holding H-1B status"_.

The employer is required, by law, to notify USCIS as soon as your employment
ends. So USCIS does know immediately, that you are out-of-status.

~~~
throwaway11221
Indeed. There are ways to get USCIS to grant you a few days, but again,
nothing is certain. Living as a legal immigrant isn't as stressful as being an
illegal one - but it's not too far off.

My job is fairly secure, but who knows, right? I have a range of worst-case-
scenario strategies, including how to quickly sell everything I have and move
to Canada (which is far more welcoming of highly skilled people - I qualify).

I wish I didn't have to think of all this though. I shouldn't have to. I do
everything according to the letter of the law, work hard, pay my taxes. None
of that matters. Lose my job - and bye-bye life in the US.

I know people who don't make as much as I do and aren't getting job offers.
They are even worse off and often complain of feeling like slaves to their
employers. My company doesn't treat me any different to a US citizen - but
smaller companies routinely abuse their H1 workers, because they know they
have them over a barrel.

~~~
winter_blue
> Living as a legal immigrant isn't as stressful as being an illegal one - but
> it's not too far off.

True, whether USCIS chooses to act on a sudden unexpected layoff you might
have, and begin "removal proceedings" against you -- or in other words, send
ICE agents to your home, arrest you, throw you in a detention center ("jail")
for an indefinite amount of time, until you are put on a plane back to India
(forcibly), is up in the air.

The likelihood is that, as someone who came to this country on a skilled visa,
you are probably not on the top of their priority list. There is also,
_prosecutorial discretion_. If you get laid of suddenly, and if you find
another willing sponsor super-fast (in let's say, 10 days), they can basically
ask USCIS for forgiveness for the fact that you were out-of-status. They'd
have to write a letter explaining that the circumstances were outside your
control. However, prosecutorial discretion, is completely at the discretion of
the officer reviewing your case.

However, another thing to be much more wary about is, if you were let's say
driving in Alabama, where police officers can stop you[1] on suspicion that
you are illegal (for which the sole, if not primary criteria is
race/appearance), they can and do contacted the federal government to check if
you are in the country legally, and you could be dragged and chucked into an
ICE detention facility by the local police.

Alabama law requires local police to do this. But I've heard of stories of
police in upstate New York doing this unilaterally (not because state law
directs them to). NY driver licenses show the expiration date of your visa.
This person had overstayed their F-1 student visa, and the upstate NY officer
after seeing the visa expiration date on the driver license, dragged him over
to ICE and handed him over. What's interesting is that NY doesn't have any
state law[2] that requires the police to do this. With Indian people being
frequently confused for Hispanic people, you are at high risk in any rural
part of this country, or really any part of the U.S. with low immigrant
populations.

[1] Alabama has a statute that allows them to do that:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arizona_SB_1070](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arizona_SB_1070)
It was much harsher, as originally you would have been made guilty of criminal
felony (under state law) for not having legal status, but the Supreme Court
overturned most of it, except for the ability of local police to randomly stop
you because of "reasonable suspicion" that you lack legal status:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arizona_v._United_States](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arizona_v._United_States)

[2] But the local laws of New York City expressly prohibits this. The local
laws of the "sanctuary cities" in the U.S. all expressly prohibit the police
from inquiring about your immigrant status. Even if they can know from just
looking at your driver license that you are illegal, the sanctuary cities
prohibit the police from taking any action based on this. More on this:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanctuary_city](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanctuary_city)

~~~
winter_blue
One more thing: the President has the power to make a rule saying that all
H-1B visa holders receive _X days of guaranteed prosecutorial discretion_ , if
they are laid off / terminated.

We could petition the President and ask him to create such a rule, but we'd
need a lot of people, and a lot of support. If you are interested in working
on this, feel free to get in touch with me at the email address listed on my
GitHub profile (which is linked to on my HN profile).

------
discardorama
A solution to this wholesale import of cheap labor is to rank all the H-1B
applications in order of salary, and take the top N. Presto: problem of low-
wage imports solved; companies will now be able to find local talent, since
they'll have to pay more, and tech workers will make more money. Win, win, win
for all.

~~~
shas3
...which would suck for the supply chain expert hired at some company's
Kentucky logistics center. And yay for the software engineer in SF?

~~~
gherkin0
That's a strange attitude. Immigration is not some weird form of corporate
welfare, where corporations have some right to get employee-immigrants at
prices they can afford.

Honestly, I'd like it if the Kentucky logistics company were forced to pay SF
wages. It might help drive up wages for skilled workers in Kentucky.

~~~
shas3
How is it corporate welfare? The objective is a legal framework to allow
companies to hire skilled international workers: pharma scientists as much as
Ruby-on-rails wizards. It is also corporate welfare if you are indirectly
loading the die in high-paying SF/NY jobs.

------
oldmanjay
I have the (unfortunate, given reality) mindset of believing borders are an
outmoded fiction, so protectionist arguments never seem very convincing to me.
No one has yet made a believable case for Americans being more deserving of
employment than any given nationality, and I believe the global federation of
skills that happens as a result of various immigration programs _is_ the
greater good for the species.

~~~
greeneggs
The potential gains, especially from freer immigration, are astounding.

"The gains from eliminating migration barriers dwarf---by an order of a
magnitude or two---the gains from eliminating other types of barriers. For the
elimination of trade policy barriers and capital flow barriers, the estimated
gains amount to less than a few percent of world GDP. For labor mobility
barriers, the estimated gains are often in the range of 50–150 percent of
world GDP." [1]

A typical example:

"Take a male construction worker in the capital of Ghana. There isn’t much you
could do to greatly raise his economic productivity in Ghana; access to better
tools or training might make him modestly more productive. But if you let the
exact same person emigrate to work at a construction site in any big U.S.
city, his economic productivity would rise roughly 700% to 1,000%." [2]

[1] Clemens, Michael A. 2011. "Economics and Emigration: Trillion-Dollar Bills
on the Sidewalk?" Journal of Economic Perspectives, 25(3): 83-106.
[https://www.aeaweb.org/articles.php?doi=10.1257/jep.25.3.83](https://www.aeaweb.org/articles.php?doi=10.1257/jep.25.3.83)

[2] [http://www.cgdev.org/blog/trillion-dollar-bills-sidewalk-
why...](http://www.cgdev.org/blog/trillion-dollar-bills-sidewalk-why-
don%E2%80%99t-more-economists-study-emigration)

~~~
soared
I really like this idea in theory. But in practice, even the given example is
kind of broken. Would a random Ghana man be able to survive in the US? How
much training and teaching would it take for them to actually be successful?
Our culture and daily life are really not that similar. Undoubtedly there
would still be a lot of economic gain for him, but the sheer logistics of it
don't seem possible to overcome.

~~~
retroam
They are actually more similar than you would imagine. The national language
is English and there is a decent size community in the bigger American cities
that make it easier for a Ghanaian immigrant to assimilate.

------
shas3
The skills shortage issue, in my experience is the inability to find someone
with the specific skills and talents for a given job. It is real, as anyone
who's tried to hire in certain areas can testify. It is not a strict commodity
market where terms like shortage are easy to define. The purpose of the H1B
visa is to make it easy for US companies to look for talent wherever in the
world it is available without having to open up offices there. It fails to do
this in an equitable manner. One can arrive at this conclusion without
invoking STEM shortage and implying that foreign workers are somehow
deficient.

Frankly the only place where H1B seems to be "misused" is in the outsourcing
industry. And that too it is "misused" if you look it from a protectionist
perspective.

I've never seen any high skilled jobs going to H1Bs just because it is
cheaper. In fact I've seen the opposite: small and mid-size companies
hesitating to hire H1Bs because of the uncertainties involved.

Also, PhD glut in bio has nothing to do with H1B! The author misleadingly
brings it up because it has the "woah" factor to buttress his argument.

Also can somehow explain to me how it is not protectionism to forge Disney to
do something in house while it can be done cheaper by engaging a foreign
company like Infosys?

~~~
waterlesscloud
Which specific skills and talents are in shortage?

~~~
bobosha
I'll start. 1\. Deep learning, Neural networks, anything to do with AI. 2\.
Machine Vision, 3\. Genomic Science (CRSPR etc. 4\. Robotics/Mechatronics...
and that's just a start.

~~~
bsder
> 3\. Genomic Science (CRSPR etc.

Did you _read_ the article?

> The mismatch is especially stark in the biomedical field. There, according
> to a 2014 paper by experts from UC San Francisco, Harvard and Princeton,
> "the training pipeline produces more scientists than relevant positions in
> academia, government, and the private sector are capable of absorbing."

~~~
jdminhbg
Genomic Science is not the same as "the biomedical field." I'm not familiar
with the job market in that particular field, but nothing you learn from
_reading_ the article gainsays the idea that it's hard to hire people to do
genomic stuff.

------
wmil
The US can fix most of the H1B problems by just giving them out quarterly
based on salary.

This will mostly damage employers abusing the system -- I doubt this hog
processor really vitally needs all of these "Manager Trainees" earning 30k.

[http://h1bdata.info/index.php?em=&job=MANAGER+TRAINEE&city=&...](http://h1bdata.info/index.php?em=&job=MANAGER+TRAINEE&city=&year=All)

The whole prevailing wage and government allocation business is just too ripe
for abuse. If they're genius visas you can afford large salaries.

~~~
johansch
Ding ding ding! This guy solved it.

------
andreshb
This article is confusing offshoring with outsourcing, it says of the h1b:

"outsourcing firms that use them to import workers"

And throughout it interchanges offshoring and outsourcing, all the way through
its conclusion:

"Overwhelmingly, the H-1B program is working to speed up the offshoring," Hira
said, "rather than keeping [jobs] here in the U.S."

What h1b does is keep the jobs in the U.S. staffed by work permit holders, it
is the opposite of offshoring.

~~~
tosseraccount
Please see : [http://www.myvisajobs.com/Reports/2015-H1B-Visa-
Sponsor.aspx](http://www.myvisajobs.com/Reports/2015-H1B-Visa-Sponsor.aspx)

The biggest H1B companies specialize in outsourcing and offshoring.

------
4bpp
Taking the circumstance that a half of STEM university graduates fail to find
a job as evidence that there is no "STEM shortage" seems to be based on a
misunderstanding about what it means to be qualified for a STEM job, or
perhaps the quality of a university education. In CS, at least, which seems to
be their go-to example field, my experience is that it is pretty much
impossible to fail to graduate due to incompetence - I have seen the system
bend over backwards to ensure that people who barely got 40% in a course with
plenty of freebies in its marking scheme get passing grades, and the reason
given was actually "they want to graduate this year". Considering also the
number of people who flock into the relevant programs hoping for a slice of
the startup cake every year, it does not seem at all surprising that half of
the US graduates are simply objectively unqualified for any job in the field
they graduate in.

~~~
hkmurakami
Reminds me of the PhD degrees being handed out based on pity despite gross
incompetence of the candidates.

------
rm999
People concentrate on legislative solutions, but the H-1B program is well-
defined by the current law. It seems to me that this is on the executive
branch - why isn't the Department of Labor cracking down on obvious abuse?

Does anyone know if anything ever came of this investigation?
[http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/12/us/politics/outsourcing-
co...](http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/12/us/politics/outsourcing-companies-
under-scrutiny-over-visas-for-technology-workers.html)

~~~
jessaustin
Why do any of our captured regulatory agencies fail to regulate? Many times
it's because senior staff will get their pension within the next five years,
and they want to make sure they have a nice private position to transfer into
when that happens. If a large firm fails really egregiously in meeting
standards, it will get a series of phone calls and private meetings as the
prospective junior exec demonstrates how "helpful" she can be. If OTOH some
small manufacturer with forty employees (executive positions available: 0) has
the safety info signs installed too far from the equipment, the regulatory
hammer is sure to hit it hard.

------
raven105x
H1Bs are a form of corporate welfare that has to stop. Let me TL;DR this for
you.

Q. "B-b-but there's a shortage of skilled workers!"

A. Good, let supply-demand make you pay what you should be paying for it. Let
our colleges give meaningful education to people they're putting in debt for
jobs they can actually get later on.

Our economy is bleeding to death while corporations rack in record profits
because of outsourcing.

Few simple rules that would help a lot.

* Want an H1B? Pay them in the top 10th percentile of similar domestic professionals' wages. * Want an H1B? Great, but once you sponsor it, they're free to work for anyone in the U.S. * Want an H1B? Great, but you'll be limited to no more than 5% of your total employees. * That 5% limit includes overseas offices and "international" owned ventures.

If a company is domestic, they should stay domestic. If it's international,
they have no need for H1Bs.

I'm writing this as a disgruntled software engineer turned into a business
owner.

People getting away with crap like this is infuriating.

------
lukeschlather
It's sad that the focus is on just ripping down the program. Right now the
thing is a huge bureaucracy which costs tons of lawyer time as well as
employee time. Raise the minimum H1B wage to $110k, index it to CPI, and the
problem will basically go away overnight.

I'd also advocate that we allow companies to convert their existing H1Bs to
green-card holders after 3 years, in exchange for getting a new H1B. This
would effectively raise the cap while increasing mobility among immigrants
working under the program.

------
tapiwa
Can someone please remind me again why USians should have a god given right to
jobs in the US? Or put another way ... should an accident of birth(place) be
the most import decider on whether someone should get a job or not?

I realise that this is probably going to get stupidly downvoted, but I am a
die hard libertarian.

Why is it, in 2016, still OK to pick on the foreigners? Replace the word
"foreigner" with Black/Woman/Jew/Gay/White/Whatever, and it would be totally
unacceptable.

Way I see things, in a hundred years or so, picking on foreigners will be seen
in the same light as picking on some minority group today.

I just worry that I won't get to live to see that day.

~~~
diogenescynic
>pick on the foreigners?

You're being ridiculous. It's not picking on them at all. They are trying to
protect US citizens from losing their jobs (or getting wages cut) due to a
sudden availability of cheap labor. A government is rightfully concerned with
making sure its own citizens are gainfully employed. Citizens vote, foreigners
don't. Every person within those borders who does not have a job puts a drain
on the rest of the country. Someone without a job outside of those borders
does not. So bringing someone across those borders while an unemployed person
is within them is a net economic negative. Look at the biggest H-1B
recipients: [http://www.myvisajobs.com/Reports/2015-H1B-Visa-
Sponsor.aspx](http://www.myvisajobs.com/Reports/2015-H1B-Visa-Sponsor.aspx)
It's all low quality outsourcing shops like Infosys and Cognizant.

>why USians should have a god given right to jobs in the US?

These laws/protections are intended to prevent a race to the bottom. If the
public subsidizes the operation of a company through security, education, and
infrastructure, the community that makes that investment is entitled to ensure
that the fruits of that investment go to other members of the community.

~~~
tapiwa
>>They are trying to protect US citizens from losing their jobs (or getting
wages cut) due to a sudden availability of cheap labor.

Mmmm. I hear you. Sort of. Your argument though, is not very different from
the "women are taking jobs that rightfully belong to men" spiel that was all
the rage after WWII.

I suspect that my argument is fundamentally based on wishful thinking. That
said, you can't have your cake and eat it. The 'race to the bottom' you alude
to is already happening with offshoring though.

But my central argument remains ... foreigners (based on borders determined by
middle aged white men a couple of centuries ago), remain the last 'minority'
group that you can still discriminate against, vocally, in polite society.

~~~
diogenescynic
>discriminate against

The fact that you think it's discrimination shows you completely misunderstand
the issue and are coming at it from an emotionally biased perspective. You
aren't entitled to anything. The government is rightfully concerned with
protecting its own citizens and making sure they are gainfully employed.
Citizens vote, foreigners don't. Every person within those borders who does
not have a job puts a drain on the rest of the country. Someone without a job
outside of those borders does not.

Also, the last I checked Americans aren't allowed to work nearly as freely in
most of the countries where we accept immigrants from. We are already an
exceptionally generous country and our visa program is already abused and rife
with fraud. To expect even more from the US is just hypocritical and self-
entitled thinking.

------
dominotw
Another day another 'stem shortage' article on front page. Complete with same
old recycled "solutions" in the comments.

last one here from 11 days ago :
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11105798](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11105798)

------
datashovel
"Congress is still holding hearings that lead nowhere"...

And who continues to vote incumbents into office? It's as if we have no one to
blame but ourselves.

~~~
a3n
People vote for who they've heard of, and who they've heard. Who pays for all
those ads? Not ourselves.

------
geodel
H1B or no H1B with the advances in computing (cloud, automation, ML AI etc)
are now getting mature enough that we will simply not need so many workers in
IT sector. Even folks in outsourcing destinations like India are staring at
layoffs and downward income revisions.

------
known
Tax Corporate Revenues, Not Profits;

------
serge2k
> These workers aren't uniquely skilled, engineering grand masters, but are
> rank-and-file IT often with bachelor's degrees and supplementary on-the-job
> training. But their salaries often come to $100,000 or more, leaving them
> vulnerable to lower-cost imported workers.

Okay, but if they aren't skilled and no shortage exists then why aren't
companies able to find cheaper US based graduates?

> Employers are legally required to pay visa holders the "local prevailing
> wage" for their jobs, but enforcement is porous. "It is extraordinarily easy
> to pay an H-1B worker much less than an American worker," Hira observed; the
> trick lies in how the job is defined

So fix this.

> Evidence is ample that the very claim of a STEM shortage in the U.S. is
> phony. Salzman noted that "overall, our colleges and universities graduate
> twice the number of STEM graduates as find a job each year." The mismatch is
> especially stark in the biomedical field. There, according to a 2014 paper
> by experts from UC San Francisco, Harvard and Princeton, "the training
> pipeline produces more scientists than relevant positions in academia,
> government, and the private sector are capable of absorbing."

Wow. That's compelling evidence since everyone known STEM degrees are entirely
interchangeable.

How many H1-Bs are given out to biomedical graduates?

