
At Vice, Cutting-Edge Media and Allegations of Old-School Sexual Harassment - mrjaeger
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/23/business/media/vice-sexual-harassment.html
======
BlanketApple
I'd heard rumors about this at Vice. Glad to see it getting some air.

Stories like this are important, because I think the traditional view of
sexual harassment is that it happens at JP Morgan, or Exxon, or "stodgy" old
companies.

People don't think that it can happen at their cool, hip workplace where
everyone's woke. But, power is power.

Incidentally, and totally based off of a gut reaction and not data: I wonder
if this is the death knell of "company outings." More and more it feels like
people are content to let work be work, and avoiding things like holiday
parties and after-work gatherings.

I wonder if it's partially because of situations like this: You might be
inappropriately propositioned. Or, you might have too much to drink and make
an inappropriate advance - I don't even mean anything grossly egregious here
necessarily, but a superior making an advance on their subordinate is pretty
inappropriate even if the advance itself is tame.

~~~
torpfactory
I think, in general, that it is totally fine to have company outings, but
propositions of any sort should be avoided. You're certainly asking each
individual to have self discipline, but in my mind this is a very reasonable
expectation.

As a rule, everyone should probably avoid relationships at work. If you do
decide to have a relationship, do it right and start extremely slowly (i.e.
coffee shop date, etc). Feel things out, not up :) and make sure that both
people have the same ideas before moving to the next level. Relationships
between superiors and subordinates should generally be forbidden.

~~~
Disruptive_Dave
On the other hand, think about how much time you spend at work. How close your
interactions are with others. We - human beings - are jammed into little
4-walled boxes for the majority of our days with a bunch of people we already
have something huge in common with...and told not to get too close with them.
It's pretty wild, the whole scenario.

~~~
rayiner
As a married guy I find this line of thinking hard to understand. “How are we
supposed to work so closely with these people without getting ‘too close?’”
Uh, I’m not allowed to solicit a date in any context: work, the grocery store,
cafes, etc. Somehow I manage, and so do most married people.

~~~
xkcd-sucks
As a married guy, if your marriage is truly fulfilling, this problem is
irrelevant to you.

Given that proximity is the single largest determining factor in romantic
partnership, if you work the majority of your time then coworkers will be your
most promising dating pool. If you don't work much, you're probably stressed
from unemployment. The number of people that have free time to enjoy close
proximity with non-coworkers is certainly a minority.

------
danso
Related story from last month: [https://www.thedailybeast.com/unsafe-and-just-
plain-dirty-wo...](https://www.thedailybeast.com/unsafe-and-just-plain-dirty-
women-accuse-vice-of-toxic-sexual-harassment-culture)

One of the interesting parts to come out of that (and from the OP) is VICE's
"non-traditional workplace agreement":

> _New hires at Vice also sign a “Non-Traditional Workplace Agreement,” an
> infamous internal document that requires employees with no experience at
> Vice to agree as a condition of employment to not be generally offended by
> anything that goes on there._

[https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/4203989-Non-
Traditio...](https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/4203989-Non-Traditional-
Workplace-Agreement.html)

~~~
trhway
> to not be generally offended by anything that goes on there.

Is it a one way or two way street at Vice - ie. are you allowed to "offend" in
your turn too?

~~~
pwaai
Seems pretty one way:

> One woman said she was riding a Ferris wheel at Coney Island after a company
> event when a co-worker suddenly took her hand and put it on his crotch.

So basically the letter the women sign is a license for certain men in a
elevated position to assault women.

I feel like this kind of shit puts us two steps back, especially when the
American president is accused of similar behavior towards woman, now it will
give that side another "whatboutism" ammunition.

I have a strong nagging feeling that there are bound to be more #metoo stories
shortly from Vice.

I mean it's so fucking bizarre to have a systematic infrastructure set in
place to allow it's higher up members to traumatize defenseless women.

If the mainstream media wanted to destroy Vice once and for all, now seems
like an appropriate opportunity.

~~~
dominotw
> If the mainstream media wanted to destroy Vice once and for all, now seems
> like an appropriate opportunity.

So I guess its well accepted now that "mainstream media" is not merely there
to report what is going on but have active agendas to shape the world
according to their wishes. It a weapon of destruction.

~~~
electricEmu
> So I guess its well accepted now that "mainstream media" is not merely there
> to report what is going on but have active agendas to shape the world
> according to their wishes. It a weapon of destruction.

I'm not sure what you're angling for, but they're all corporations with market
interests. The NYT itsself authored the article.

Your comment appears to be reaching pretty hard to throw in that MSM comment.

~~~
jessaustin
Wat? That was a quote of parent. Besides, Vice would have to try pretty hard
to get more mainstream than it already is. Is TFA _not_ discussing Matt-Lauer-
style remote-kidnapping locks?

------
ucaetano
Straight from 2004:

[https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/av759j/the-
vice-v11n5](https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/av759j/the-vice-v11n5)

"The VICE Guide to Partying

Here are some of the types you'll need to invite.

TRANSSEXUAL: Pre-op is good, but post–breast implants, pre–gender reassignment
is PERFECTION. All transsexuals are slutty, so don't worry about that. This
guest is a very high priority and should be catered to accordingly. Put her
first in the queue for cocaine and drinks. Tell her how pretty she is. Touch
her a lot.

GUY WHO WILL FUCK TRANSSEXUAL: He is your #2 guy, your party wingman. If the
tranny doesn't feel loved, she will leave. Then you're fucked. If you don't
have a tranny chaser in your six-degrees network, I have one word for you:
craigslist.com. We posted there for this party ("Guy wanted to fuck tranny in
ass") and had 20 respondents within an hour. I picked this particular man
because he has the biggest ring through his cockhead that I have ever seen.

WANTON DRUNK SLUT: This is a surprisingly tough one to find. Once you get a
reliable drunk slut in your life, someone who will shed her clothes and let a
room full of people write on her with indelible markers at the drop of a hat,
hold onto her like a dinghy in the perfect storm. She is a true party staple
and will prove again and again the fact that nudity at a party is as
contagious as the bird flu. Just as the night begins, give her (and only her)
a handful of shrooms."

Yep, that's Vice. The current progressive, cutting-edge image is just makeup.

~~~
frankzinger
Wow, that article only gets worse. It's actually weird that one of the
takeaways of the top-level article is that people were surprised to find
sexual harassment/assault at a "young, hip" company like Vice. But looking at
this kind of content one has to expect it to be _much_ worse at Vice than at
"traditional, old-school" companies.

------
provost
> In 2003 Vice reached a $25,000 settlement with the freelance writer Jessica
> Hopper. The deal involved defamation claims tied to an interview she did
> with the rapper Murs that was published in the February 2003 issue of the
> magazine, according to a copy of the agreement viewed by The Times. During
> the interview, Murs asked Ms. Hopper if he could have sex with her. She said
> no and included that answer in her article.

> But before the article was published, the magazine changed her response to
> yes and printed it under the headline, “I Got Laid But Murs Didn’t.”

> Mortified, Ms. Hopper hired lawyers. The two sides struck a settlement that,
> in addition to a payout, required Vice to print a retraction and a formal
> apology.

Wow. I feel so poorly for Ms. Hopper. They defamed her and shamed her, yet a
$25,000 settlement likely only paid for her lawyers. Disgusting -- they should
feel ashamed.

~~~
pwaai
I hope that she can get the appropriate justice. $25,000 is a pittance
compared to the psychological trauma from having to relive the trauma over and
over from being discussed. I mean, fuck man, why even become a lawyer if you
are going to achieve such poor results?

But I guess when you can't afford the same lawyers a large corporation can,
its going to be an uphill battle. Especially now when the US courts is
trending towards less class action lawsuits.

When all goes wrong you are supposed to be able to count on the law. Seems
like a pretty big asterisk is needed there.

~~~
nyolfen
humiliation surely, but 'trauma' sounds like a truly extreme stretch

------
craftyguy
> One woman said she was riding a Ferris wheel at Coney Island after a company
> event when a co-worker suddenly took her hand and put it on his crotch.

I have absolutely no idea why someone would think this is OK to do. Generally
I can try to piece together how someone might rationalize their behavior but
the best I can come up with on this one is: alcohol.

~~~
freeflight
That incident happened after a company event, isn't that considered private
time? I mean, she would have had to agree to go with the co-worker, during
their off-hours, in the first place and he might have interpreted her
willingness to go along as a signal of mutual interest (romantic, sexual) in
each other?

That isn't meant as an excuse for such creepy, if not straight up criminal,
behavior. But as somebody with some social issues of his own, I can relate
quite a bit with not being able to properly interpret social and body cues.

To me, the vast majority of people are walking blackboxes where I have no clue
how they would react to most actions of my own. Which boils down to me acting
rather passively in most social situations out of fear I might break some
unspoken rule, misinterpret the current mood in the room/between people.

~~~
vforgione
If a woman wants to touch you, she will. End of story.

~~~
lkerrekfjk
Wouldn't that be assault as well?

~~~
astura
Yes.

------
xir78
I recall an episode about Lady Boys in Thailand, where at the end Shane signs
off by essentially says he’s going to have sex with a male prostitute.

That seemed more “wrong crowd” than just “edgy” to me.

------
pwaai
The co-founder of Vice started a alt-right white boy club[1], which was pretty
shocking to be honest. It did make me stop watching Vice & Vice News
altogether.

[1]:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gavin_McInnes](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gavin_McInnes)

~~~
eropple
McInnes is a racist, misogynistic shitheel for sure, but he also left in 2008.
Since, Vice has become an outlet that does objectively good stuff with its
reporting and its specialist media--I love Waypoint, I have a friend there
whose moral compass is beyond reproach as far as I am concerned, and I have
zero doubt that that friend wouldn't be there if they weren't convinced of the
place.

Near as I can tell, Vice is an outlet that escaped its asshole founder and
gone past his goals. Should probably be commended for that (while at the same
time expected to clean house when confronted with meritorious allegations).

~~~
michaelbuckbee
Not sure why you're being downvoted.

Austin Walker (current editor in chief for Waypoint - Vice's Video Games site)
is the walking antithesis of an alt-right bro.

It is a good question though: how long do you hold an organization responsible
for someone or for their collective actions?

~~~
malvosenior
> Austin Walker (current editor in chief for Waypoint - Vice's Video Games
> site) is the walking antithesis of an alt-right bro.

What does being left wing or right wing have to do with anything? We’re
talking about sexual harassment, not politics. The majority if the recent high
profile cases have been democrats doing the harassment btw.

~~~
adamson
Read two posts above you. We were talking about how one of the founders is a
public racist, but how Vice's current editorial approach seems to have move
passed that.

I don't think it's controversial that sexual misconduct is persistent across
the political spectrum.

~~~
malvosenior
Yes, Vice is extremely left wing. They apparently also commit a good deal of
sexual harassment internally if this article is to be believed.

Not sure what the founder who left (and his politics) well before any of the
alleged offenses has to do with anything.

------
1337biz
I am baffled by the outrage. Isn't Vice known to be an edgy, drugy and
boundary bending outlet? Are we seriously pretending to be suprised that
drugged up late teens are doing sick stuff. Or what am I missing here?

~~~
saas_co_de
just because d-bag is your "image" doesn't make you immune from sexual
harassment laws.

~~~
1337biz
I am not criticizing the laws. What I have issues with is the fake outrage. It
seems so hypocritical to me acting suprised about this situation. For me it is
on the same level than breaking the news that rock stars are taking drugs and
having sex with girls half their age. Sure, it is illegal and for some morally
problematic, but pretending this is a scandal is beyond ridiculous.

------
bogomipz
Yesterday's "The Vice Guide to Right Now" podcast was about sexual harassment
in the restaurant industry[1]

Hypocrites.

[1] [https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/59w3q3/sexual-
harassment-...](https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/59w3q3/sexual-harassment-
in-the-food-industry)

~~~
Fricken
Vice has different people saying and doing different things. It's not a
monolithic entity. I'm not sure what might've given you the impression that
is.

~~~
bogomipz
The entity is vice.com, not Viceland the cable channel, not Vice Magazine, not
Vice News or Vice Films but vice.com the website.

Now look at how many articles on sexual harassment vice.com the website has
published recently:

[https://www.vice.com/en_us/topic/sexual-
harassment](https://www.vice.com/en_us/topic/sexual-harassment)

And yes someone has editorial control of vice.com.

------
ringaroundthetx
I dont think these expose’s and #metoo campaigns are going to have the effect
that they are going for. These things are merely exposing consequences (or
lack thereof)

I think it is more likely that gender exclusive clubs will become more in
vogue again, where they simply bus in the people willing to be objectified

Unfortunately There is nothing about this that is curbing behavior or desires,
it is only showing the folly of gender diversity in the workplace. The
additional liability incurred

Im not endorsing these observations, I and almost everyone will publicly say
this is wrong, upvote how heinous people in power can be, but what I perceive
of peoples desires are unchanged.

~~~
noobermin
I'll bite even though I shouldn't. What do you mean by the "folly of gender
diversity in the workplace?"

~~~
ringaroundthetx
The additional liability incurred, as I wrote

