
Tell HN: How we bootstrapped to the #1 rated mattress on Amazon.com - johmas
About 12 months ago we founded a bed company called Tuft &amp; Needle. The HN community has been a great source of inspiration&#x2F;education and we&#x27;re proud to share our progress. We recently reached the #1 &quot;Top Rated&quot; rank in Mattresses and #2 in Furniture on Amazon.com.<p>Website: https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.tuftandneedle.com&#x2F;
Amazon.com: http:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.amazon.com&#x2F;gp&#x2F;top-rated&#x2F;home-garden&#x2F;3732961&#x2F;<p>Problem: Painful shopping experience and extremely high margins in the mattress industry.<p>Solution: We make a good bed without any gimmicks. It is comfortable, safe and attractive without falsely advertised features or fraudulent discounts.<p>Business: We launched with a MVP and a simple landing page to test our ideas. Then about 4 months ago, we listed on Amazon and it&#x27;s caught up to be a significant sales channel on its own. In the last quarter we&#x27;ve had 100% month-over-month growth. We don&#x27;t spend on advertising, and more than half our sales are from word-of-mouth referrals and social media.<p>Technical: We take a pragmatic approach with everything including the storefront, sales tools, inventory tracking and fulfillment processes. We use 3rd-party services for payments (Stripe), bitcoin (Coinbase), shipping labels (EasyPost), CRM (Intercom), etc. Stack: Rails+AngularJS+Heroku.<p>Lesson Learned: Our primary success factor was starting with a rough draft. We didn&#x27;t like our v1 much—an all cotton tufted mattress—but that didn&#x27;t keep us from launching with it. This gave us a chance to experiment with problem&#x2F;solution and to start collecting feedback right away. We had to do quite a few returns at first but we iterated constantly until our customer satisfaction was high enough for us to start getting referrals.<p>We would really value the community&#x27;s opinion. We want to get as much feedback as possible to make sure we&#x27;re going in the right direction.<p>JT &amp; Daehee at T&amp;N
======
mpermar
Being someone that considers himself literate in the mattress industry, as my
wife runs a humble mattress storage and distribution firm I totally agree that
the prices I could see visiting on the US are way over the top. If I lived
there, well, making/selling mattresses must be a profitable business from the
retail pricing I could see. Mind you I was on Silicon Valley which I imagine
must be very pricy.

The website is really beautiful. Well done. It almost makes you feel I have to
buy this!!! I think that's the key point.

Because apart from that... well... there's a rule in business that is you get
what you pay for. Even if mattress retailers are making a fortune on margins,
well you guys also have margins too. And a retail price of $299..to..$499-king
tells me that your mattresses are very low end.

So the website is beautiful but very misleading. Like the infographic about
the cost of making a mattress. It probably should title it "Here is how a
_cheap_ mattress is marked up". Because there is mattresses and mattresses.
Tons of variations, fabrics and qualities. And well.. you're not even selling
mattresses or at least we don't call that a mattress here ( Spain ) but a mat
instead. It is just too thin. Less than half the thickness of a regular
mattress. Then of course, the fact that is made of foam only makes it worse as
with that thickness it will unavoidable deform with usage. Who tells otherwise
is lying or just very new to the business plainly because all foam mattresses
deform to some degree.

Then there is the foam density, that I can't see anywhere in the specs. And as
you can guess when you import materials the bigger the density the more
expensive the foam sheets are. But hey, people today demand cheap prices. But
anyways, mattresses these days tend to have lesser foam densities as people
want cheaper prices. But of course that comes with the cost of deformability
and that's why mattresses these days don't last that much as they used to in
the past.

One thing that tells how good your marketing efforts are is that the mattress
is foldable. Someone not used to mattress would think: AWESOME. Some used
would think, oh no another crappy sofa-bed mat. I'd never recommend anyone to
buy a foldable bed unless for an apartment with very low space and of
course... for a sofa-bed!

So my summary would be: really well done making attractive a low-end product.
The marketing is excellent and you definitely found a market out there. The
website is beautiful but well.... you sell what you sell, tons of half-truths
on it.

~~~
daehee
Thanks for the feedback, and I understand your concerns. I'll address them
below.

>> Even if mattress retailers are making a fortune on margins, well you guys
also have margins too. And a retail price of $299..to..$499-king tells me that
your mattresses are very low end.

We of course have built-in margins on our products, and we try to keep it as
fair as possible while supporting our operational overhead. But to write off
our beds as "very low end" is a misinformed assumption. We have internal
pricing of well known mattress brands that are considered high end by many and
they have the same if not lower costs as ours (due to volume and manufacturing
in Mexico/China).

>> It is just too thin. Less than half the thickness of a regular mattress.

We have a 10-inch model (double the thickness) coming out soon. The price
won't be too much more than the 5-inch, while offering the same level of
comfort. But to be honest, we've never had a return for it being too thin.

>> the fact that is made of foam only makes it worse as with that thickness it
will unavoidable deform with usage

Our foam should last 5-7 years before there is any deformity/compression.
We've done thorough cycle tests in a lab to test this.

>> Then there is the foam density, that I can't see anywhere in the specs. And
as you can guess when you import materials the bigger the density the more
expensive the foam sheets are.

The foam in our bed is roughly about 2 lbs in density. There is some variance
as with any foam manufacturing process. Our foams are poured and crafted in
California, and 3 different layers provide a blend in density that's proved to
be comfortable and durable. To give a point of reference, Tempurpedic recently
dropped below a 1.8 lb density base foam, and that is considered high end.
They used to use 2 lb but they reduced it to increase their margins.

~~~
smacktoward
_> Our foam should last 5-7 years before there is any deformity/compression_

5-7 years doesn't seem like a particularly long time in the context of the
life of a mattress. My (limited) understanding has always been that mattresses
are the sort of thing many people hold onto for decades. In that context
"it'll be good for five years" doesn't sound reassuring.

If you're positioning your product on price, you could make the
counterargument that with your mattresses people could afford to replace them
much more frequently than they typically do, of course. Just pointing out how
this marketing point would strike me, if I were a potential customer.

~~~
SDGT
$100 a year for a mattress at their price is downright cheap, assuming you
don't even go the full 7.

5-7 years is MTTF for just about every mattress in existence. I pitch mine
after 5 years as is; Those things are dirty after 5 years of sleeping on the
same surface every night.

~~~
curun1r
That's the point behind mattress covers/pads. For $50/$100, you get something
to put on top of the mattress to absorb the dirt. After a few years, you can
replace them for a fraction of the cost of a new mattress. They can also be
removed and washed.

~~~
cvburgess
Covers are great (I have and use one) because they keep sweat and dirt out
(which kill mattresses the fastest) but they do not prevent the mattress
itself from deteriorating due to constant weight.

------
Zelphyr
I bought one of these mattresses recently. The 10+ year old spring mattress I
had was on its last legs and I found myself waking up with back pain.

I happened upon an AMA on Reddit by a guy in the mattress industry and someone
mentioned T&N. After some research I decided to give them a try. 30-day money
back guarantee and all.

I think I knew I didn't need the 30 days after the third night. I was sold. I
slept more soundly those first three days than I had in years prior.

Some things to consider:

\- The smell. Its the case with ALL foam mattresses so this is neither unique
to T&N nor their fault. But it goes away pretty quickly.

\- If for some reason you don't like it and want to send it back within the
30-day guarantee period I have no idea how you'd get it back in the box. I
think maybe they should include instructions somewhere just in case. That or
provide a "Space-Bag" style wrapper that you can use.

I highly recommend trying them out if you're in the market for a mattress!

~~~
rafamvc
It says 5-year limited manufacturing warranty now.

------
drharris
I almost wish I needed a mattress! I'm so tired of scammy furniture stores,
and think this is definitely a potential growth market. I'd love if you could
eventually make a recliner that doesn't suck, and even other furniture as well
(I'd purchase a well-made anti-allergenic pillow today). The website is
beautiful, and speaks to an elegant austerity that should be pretty popular
these days. Even though the price point is shockingly low, I don't feel at all
like it's not still a premium product. The little vignettes at the bottom show
that you're part of the handcrafting "movement". The only thing I'd like to
see (and maybe I'm missing it) is how it looks/dimensions when folded, and if
it works in a murphy bed. Happy for your success thus far, and wish you the
best!

~~~
johmas
We really appreciate it. Thank you

------
tieTYT
> Our primary success factor was starting with a rough draft. We didn't like
> our v1 much—an all cotton tufted mattress—but that didn't keep us from
> launching with it. This gave us a chance to experiment with problem/solution
> and to start collecting feedback right away. We had to do quite a few
> returns at first but we iterated constantly until our customer satisfaction
> was high enough for us to start getting referrals.

Putting myself in your shoes, this seems like a scary way to go about things.
I'd think, "those first returns are from unsatisfied people. They'll give the
product bad reviews and that will put the score in a negative rut it won't be
able to pull itself out of. Yes, the next version will be amazing because of
the initial feedback, but now we'll have bad reviews so people won't even give
it a chance."

Would you mind explaining how I'm thinking about this the wrong way? Perhaps
you never put v1 on Amazon and that's how you avoided my concern? But doing so
seems like it could limit the feedback you get on v1.

~~~
daehee
That's a great point. We didn't put our product on Amazon until we reached a
high level of customer satisfaction. In the early days when we first started,
we had to hustle when we had upset customers. We fixed the problems really
fast to avoid them writing about a negative experience. As an example, we've
provided complimentary upgrades to our new versions of the bed to previous
customers.

~~~
tieTYT
If you avoided amazon, didn't this severely limit the feedback you could get?
How did those initial customers discover your product?

~~~
daehee
Yes we definitely did experience limitations in the beginning. We heavily
relied on our dotcom sales for initial traction and feedback. To test our
idea, we carefully trickled in traffic for some long tail keywords from SEO
and Google AdWords. We still don't do any advertising besides some branded
placements on AdWords and Facebook.

Listing our product on Amazon.com created additional sales and a new market
which was great. But we realize this is a 3rd-party platform which we can't
control and don't want to become dependent on it.

------
js2
I thought I'd seen a similar post on HN before so I searched and found
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1701914](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1701914)
(Ask HN: review my mattress startup, 1182 days ago) with almost no discussion,
but they are still around. (I recall a post with more discussuon about a
mattress startup based in DC but I can't find that post. Maybe it was the same
folks.) Anyway, this has apparently been tried before, so while the idea may
not be completely novel, congrats on the execution so far.

Personally when my wife and I needed a new mattress about ten years ago, I
knew that mattress shopping was a miserable experience, but I had recently
stayed in a Weston on business, found the mattress quite comfortable, and
learned that they sold their bed. So after my trip I put my wife up for a
night at a Weston, she agreed about the bed, and that's what we ended up with.
I think it's much more common now for the hotel chains to offer their beds for
sale, but I beleive the Weston was one of the first chains to do so.

I'm quite sure this was a great way to overpay for a mattress, but even if it
was $1000 (which I think it was for the king), amortized over the decade of
use a mattress is good for doesn't seem too bad.

------
cmbaus
At one point I almost went crazy researching mattresses. I like to know what I
am buying, but the industry is non-transparent. The same product can have
different names depending on where it is sold.

BTW, another product like this is range hoods.

I'm impressed that you tried to break into this business. I thought the
existing companies would have it tied up because of their distribution
channels. I did look at latex mattresses at the time, but they were an
expensive niche. About the only viable alternative to the traditional mattress
industry were the foam mattresses being produced overseas.

~~~
jedrek
Over the past 3-4 years I've bought two products that were a LOT more
complicated than they have any right to be.

One was a flashlight (who the hell knew flashlights could have firmware?), the
other was my mattress. To this day, I'm not sure what the hell I'm sleeping
on.

~~~
beagle3
Do you have a link to a description of that firmwared flashlight?

~~~
eichin
They're probably talking about the "hexbright" (usb-rechargable, arduino-
programmable, so you can implement UI experiments like "shake it to make it
brighter" \- it's also a _really_ bright light.) Will it impact the market for
boring "dead-battery storage" D-cell lights? Of course not. But if you've ever
wanted to say "even my _flashlight_ is open source..."

~~~
makomk
It's not just the Hexbright that has firmware; even a lot of the cheap
Chinese-made LED torches are microprocessor-controlled these days.

------
bernardom
Hi guys,

Love the idea, quick point of feedback: it is unclear, from a cursory glance,
whether your prices refer to bed or bed+mattress.

The floor vs. frame view is great, but the price doesn't change- so are you
just selling a mattress? Should you say mattress instead? Are you calling a
"bed" a mattress and the rest is a "frame?"

(Not being a jerk, actually confused!)

~~~
johmas
That's a really good point. We should do a better job at communicating that.

For clarification, we only sell a mattress at the moment. It is designed to be
comfortable placed directly on the floor as it is on a bed frame.

Thank you.

~~~
mr_luc
Dude! You should sell them both.

I want to throw out my entire "sleeping situation" and just fix it.

With the word-of-mouth you guys have going for you, you should see about
partnering with someone who sells great bed frames -- even at a decent markup
-- so people can order the whole shebang and solve their sleeping situation in
one go.

Or maybe include links on your website to great bed frames. I mean, I want to
buy something like what's pictured on your site but I wouldn't know how to go
about it.

There's actual value in solving the whole shebang, for people looking to do
that, so there'd be nothing wrong with adding that as a relatively pricey
option.

Just a thought. Keep up the good work. :)

~~~
johmas
I completely agree. I'll share your feedback with the team. Thank you.

~~~
thatthatis
While you're taking feedback about product integration, here's what I really
want: a murphy bed that when collapsed has a floor to ceiling whiteboard.

I may be a unique person for saying that, but a Murphy+whiteboard would turn a
small bedroom office into urban bliss.

------
MartinCron
While you guys are reinventing mattresses, can you do me a favor and invent
the "square king" mattress that can be rotated and flipped in a bunch of
different ways for even wear?

If you make it, I promise I'll buy one.

~~~
mhb
Make it a cube to get use out of those other four sides!

~~~
MartinCron
If my ceilings were taller, I would consider that.

------
vanni
Clickable:

[https://www.tuftandneedle.com/](https://www.tuftandneedle.com/)

[http://www.amazon.com/gp/top-rated/home-
garden/3732961/](http://www.amazon.com/gp/top-rated/home-garden/3732961/)

------
timjahn
I'm ALL for online shopping and the removal of brick-and-mortar stores where
they're clearly not needed. I rarely shop anywhere but Amazon Prime these
days.

But.

A mattress isn't a trivial purchase (not just in cost, which is what you're
disrupting, but in what it does for you). You use a mattress for a large
period of your life and it has a great effect on your health (either good or
bad).

Being able to physically lie on a mattress in a store provides some value in
regards to feeling how hard the mattress is, how it responds to your moving
around, etc.

I'm not sure I could buy a mattress online sight unseen and just "hope" it was
the one for me (and my wife), hoping I didn't have to deal with returns, etc.
(How the hell would I return a mattress via UPS/FedEx?)

Maybe I'm overthinking it?

~~~
johmas
You're definitely right about that. We estimate that 90%+ of our potential
customers wouldn't buy our bed unless they were able to touch it and lay down
on it.

We setup some really good policies to make it super easy to return without
much risk. We'll have it picked up by a 3rd party before having you ship it
back to us as an example.

We see ourselves moving offline in the future for sure but to bootstrap, it
wasn't really feasible to do anything other than launch online.

~~~
timjahn
Kudos for bootstrapping and being lean about this. Even cooler that you think
90% of people won't buy it without physically touching it and you STILL
started online!

Site looks great, photos are excellent, product looks great based on all that.
Having bought 2 new mattresses in the past 2 years, I know how shitty the
mattress buying experience is.

Good luck to you, definitely rooting for ya!

~~~
johmas
Thank you!

------
YnotHack
Most of the debate seems to have centered on perception vs. price, with some
very amusing points.

It seems clear that by vertically integrating they have cut out a huge chunk
of price to the end-consumer. This point in particular has zero to do with
mattress quality.

This also happened a few years ago in the diamond industry. Online retailers
cut out the expensive jewelry chains with their 1000% markups and sold
directly online at cost + 20%. As diamonds can all be graded and compared
accurately we can see how for exactly the same quality you can get something
for much less.

New models can maintain quality and reduce cost. It happens all the time. The
main proponents of the price = quality concept are marketers who are really
hoping you will pay up.

I also find it interesting that one the main critics on this thread happens to
be a middle-man who stands to lose his shirt because of T&Ns business model. I
feel for you, man.

Lastly, I just wanted to congratulate the T&N team on a great success in a
crowded space. Great example of the lean startup. Very impressed also that
advertising is $0. Wish you all the best in the future!

------
davidjhall
John, thank you for this. As many have commented, I am kicking myself that I
had to buy a mattress months ago and had to go through the whole bait-and-
switch, renamed-same-mattress-from-store-to-store BS.

Next mattress will be from you guys --- any king-sized mattresses in your
future (or is that what the twin XL)

Again -- thank you for disrupting this corrupt business

~~~
arsenerei
That renamed-same-mattress-from-store-to-store BS was actually my favorite
part of purchasing my bed, but this product is awesome and next time I need a
bed it will more than likely be this one.

------
unoti
I can't tell whether there's a frame in my cart or not. I'm interested in
pricing with and without a frame. It's not clear to me whether the pricing and
the cart includes the frame or not, and whether there's an option to do frame
or not.

We just purchased a bed for our daughter a few days ago on Amazon, and totally
would have purchased yours if we had realized there was a startup making beds
here in the USA with a no-nonsense style. I'm honestly not sure how we missed
you during that process. We had to search hard to avoid things with smelly
chemicals and cheap construction like particle board, too.

------
obiefernandez
I feel like a proud Granddad reading this post. JT was one of my developers at
Hashrocket. :)

------
kindmatt
Don't believe the hype. This is a gimmick.

I can buy a similar mattress from one of those big bad chain stores, who
supposedly marks up things up a lot, for $191 plus it is 6" thick.

[http://www.sleepys.com/en/Bayside-Liberty-6-Inch-Futon-
Mattr...](http://www.sleepys.com/en/Bayside-Liberty-6-Inch-Futon-Mattress-
Natural_92652/)

This mattress is made in the USA using materials from the US. It has all the
certifications that tuft and needle have. Excluding using organic cotton on
the outside of the mattress which should only increase the cost by $10 to $20.

This one is overpriced by Sleepy's. Checkout US Mattress with an 8" for
$169.99. [http://www.us-mattress.com/wolf-futon-mattress-
dbd.html](http://www.us-mattress.com/wolf-futon-mattress-dbd.html)

For a company trying to fix the mattress industry, you need to be more
transparent. How much foam is used? What is the exact density and ILD of the
foam? Why so secretive? You are acting like Tempur, Sealy, Serta, and Simmons.

~~~
johmas
Hi Kindmatt,

You're comparing us to a mass produced cotton futon which has a radically
different cost structure to manufacture than a foam mattress. In fact, the
actual cost to manufacture that linked product, based on pricing we have for
those, is around $30 to $55 for a queen. That would put that product somewhere
around 500% markup at the retail price. There is also a big difference in the
quality of material, as an example, if you cut open that futon--they remove
the zippers--you'll see it's filled with scraps of fabric instead of new
cotton batting. They do that to cut product costs further to keep the margins
high. Those are being produced by Wolf Corp in Indiana who is a Serta partner.
Just the quilted cover for our twin size costs more than that to produce.

Organic cotton costs roughly double. So if you buy knitted fabric at $6 a
yard, organic fabric will cost around $10-12 if it's a more than 50% of the
composition. So the pricing difference is drastically more than you mentioned.
You typically use 4-5 yards to make a mattress cover so you're talking $25
increasing to $50 just for the cover fabric. For a futon like you linked,
they're using a low oz woven twill that costs less than $2 a yard typically
totalling about $8 for the cover.

The poly foam we designed currently has a density of about 2 lbs. Which is on
the high end for foam quality. You can learn a lot more about densities on the
Mattress Underground. I'm not willing to disclose ILD, compression modulus or
formula recipes because those are currently trade secrets and we honestly
don't see a good reason to disclose them at this time. Not to mention that the
only people we've found that are interested in those details are competitors.

You are more than free to contact us and ask us questions. This thread is
starting to get old so you might get a faster response if you email me direct
jt at tuftandneedle.

~~~
kindmatt
I would respectfully disagree that the cost to mfg. a mattress is drastically
different.

Your pricing is completely off. You can buy organic cotton fabric for as low
as $6 that is 100% organic cotton certified by GOTS and you buy can knit
fabrics for $12. It isn't that simple of a comparison. If you were in
manufacturing, you would know, but it is easier to come up with a marketing
gimmick. Tuft and Needle buys from a manufacturer and resells it just like Sit
'n Sleep, Mattress Firm, Sleepy's, etc.

Why do you say “about 2 pounds” as the density? This sounds like cop out. You
are probably using 1.8 and some 2 pound. Be open and honest so people can make
an educated buying decision.

You don't agree that those are good comps. How about these? A queen Ikea is
$329 for 2.2 pound foam and a ½” thicker.
([http://www.ikea.com/us/en/catalog/products/00139813/](http://www.ikea.com/us/en/catalog/products/00139813/))
Where Tuft and Needle is $399 for a supposedly 2 pound foam. Surprisingly,
most IKEA mattresses are made in the US so don’t give the made in China
routine on this.

Serta at Sleepy's is $299.99 ([http://www.sleepys.com/en/Sertapedic-Caine-
Firm-Mattress_109...](http://www.sleepys.com/en/Sertapedic-Caine-Firm-
Mattress_109310/)). Even if they were using a lower density, how could they be
marking this 1,000% as Tuft and Needle states. Sealy has one that is 5 ¾”
thick for $299.99 at Sleepy’s ([http://www.sleepys.com/en/Sealy-Austin-Creek-
Plush-Mattress_...](http://www.sleepys.com/en/Sealy-Austin-Creek-Plush-
Mattress_39601/)).

Why is Tuft and Needle $100 more than the name brands which are made in the
USA, too? Don’t give me the density because like Sealy and Serta, Tuft and
Needle won’t disclose density. For sake of argument, let’s say Sealy uses a
1.2 pound and Tuft and Needle uses 2 pound foam. There is 200 board feet in a
queen mattress and the cost per board foot between 1.2 and 2 pound is 25
cents. The added cost would be $50 in raw material.

This is untrue; “Tuft & Needle was founded to offer boutique-quality beds at a
fraction of the cost. You shouldn't have to overpay for a good night's sleep.”
Tuft and Needle is nowhere close to a boutique bed.

Finally, prove to me that mattress stores markup the mattresses 500%. If you
look at Mattress Firm's 10K Report, you will see that there GM is nowhere near
that. In 2012, they had sales of $1,007,337,000 with a COGS of 614,572,000.
That is a 64% markup. No, sales and marketing are not included in this. They
spent 245,555,000 on sales and marketing. Tuft and Needle needs to get the
facts straight.

~~~
johmas
Kindmatt, thanks for the reply. There are many points here and I'll do my best
to address your concerns below.

> _Your pricing is completely off. You can buy organic cotton fabric for as
> low as $6 that is 100% organic cotton certified by GOTS and you buy can knit
> fabrics for $12._

I wouldn't disagree with you about being able to get it for $6 or even for
nearly free when a fabric supplier has material they are getting rid of. There
are varying attributes that makeup a cost other than just raw material. The
numbers I was using was based on averages found in research we collected from
suppliers' prices within the USA.

> _Tuft and Needle buys from a manufacturer and resells it just like Sit 'n
> Sleep, Mattress Firm, Sleepy's, etc._

We are the manufacturer of the mattress, so the comparison to other resellers
is quite misleading. With that being said, we certainly have partnered with
3rd party suppliers for the individual ingredients. As an example, we don't
have our own foam pouring machines or fabric knitting machines yet.

> _Why do you say “about 2 pounds” as the density? This sounds like cop out.
> You are probably using 1.8 and some 2 pound. Be open and honest so people
> can make an educated buying decision._

I'm being honest with you when stating our foam is "about 2lbs." The reason I
say "about" is because foam in general has a slight variance, it's never
exact. It's not abnormal for foam to be .1% more or less dense but, on
average, ours is 2lbs. We don't hide that fact from competitors. For skeptics
we encourage them to purchase and test the foam with lab equipment.

> _You don 't agree that those are good comps. How about these? A queen Ikea
> is $329 for 2.2 pound foam and a ½” thicker.
> ([http://www.ikea.com/us/en/catalog/products/00139813/](http://www.ikea.com/us/en/catalog/products/00139813/))
> Where Tuft and Needle is $399 for a supposedly 2 pound foam. Surprisingly,
> most IKEA mattresses are made in the US so don’t give the made in China
> routine on this._

That is definitely a better comparison. Our intention is not to undercut Ikea
prices and even if we tried it probably would not be possible for a while.
They are a mega billion dollar company and can leverage their economy of
scale. We respect them for their pricing and what we offer our customers is a
different experience than simply price alone.

> _Serta at Sleepy 's is $299.99. Even if they were using a lower density, how
> could they be marking this 1,000% as Tuft and Needle states. Sealy has one
> that is 5 ¾” thick for $299.99 at Sleepy’s_

The markup certainly depends on which product you're talking about and which
retailer is selling it. If that specific Serta mattress is actually priced in
a more fair manner, that would be great. There are also other smaller
companies taking a similar approach as we are, which we are really excited to
see. Mattress Underground has done a pretty good job of discussing companies
like this.

> _Why is Tuft and Needle $100 more than the name brands which are made in the
> USA, too? Don’t give me the density because like Sealy and Serta, Tuft and
> Needle won’t disclose density. For sake of argument, let’s say Sealy uses a
> 1.2 pound and Tuft and Needle uses 2 pound foam. There is 200 board feet in
> a queen mattress and the cost per board foot between 1.2 and 2 pound is 25
> cents. The added cost would be $50 in raw material._

We do disclose our density but will not disclose the other specs you're
wanting because those are our secret sauce. You're giving some examples of
foam board foot costs but to be fair, not all foam is priced on its density. A
1.2 pound foam, as you say, may cost 25 cents but if you pour with a different
ILD, compression modulas, different chemical makeup, dye, or other attributes
of many, it will certainly affect the cost. It isn't black and white. This is
why you find quite a few foam companies inventing new mixtures and formulas
and charging different amounts for the same density. Our foam makeup is
unique.

> _This is untrue; “Tuft & Needle was founded to offer boutique-quality beds
> at a fraction of the cost. You shouldn't have to overpay for a good night's
> sleep.” Tuft and Needle is nowhere close to a boutique bed._

Boutique is certainly a subjective term. For some clarity as to why we use
that word, we're a small team and we're offering something, that we believe,
is specialised.

> _Finally, prove to me that mattress stores markup the mattresses 500%. If
> you look at Mattress Firm 's 10K Report, you will see that there GM is
> nowhere near that. In 2012, they had sales of $1,007,337,000 with a COGS of
> 614,572,000. That is a 64% markup. No, sales and marketing are not included
> in this. They spent 245,555,000 on sales and marketing. Tuft and Needle
> needs to get the facts straight._

The 500% statement I made above was based on the product you linked. I
explained how I arrived at that number above. But as far as Mattress Firm, we
never singled that company out or have ever looked into them. I don't know
what their markup is but it's certainly an interesting question.

I see you just made a fresh HN account and are not exposing your identity in
the profile. If you'd like to have a deeper conversation it'd be great to jump
on a call or meet face to face if you'd like. I'd even be willing to show you
around our facility if you're in the area.

~~~
kindmatt
I’m new to HN, but I don’t think that this takes away from the points that I’m
making. I think that this conversation is best held in a public forum so
people can know the truth rather than sweeping it under the rug.

It sounds like you are using the top end of the tolerance of the foam when you
say “about.’ Everyone else in the industry uses the target density. If you
want to be totally transparent, give the range of the density like I’ve seen
when people talk about ILD or give the target density like everyone else so
that people can fairly compare Tuft and Needle’s mattress. Using the word
“about” makes you sound like you are trying to be sneaky.

Even though IKEA is a huge multinational company, they don’t manufacture the
products. A true mattress manufacturer would be able to overcome their volume
discounts and offer a product for the same price as or less than IKEA. The
Mattress Underground has a list of true manufacturers who I’m sure can easily
produce something for less than or at the same price as IKEA. Fox, Flexus, and
Buis are just a few of examples of the real deal. These are true
manufacturers!

You are not very knowledgeable in the mattress industry. Most manufacturers
don’t own knitting machines and equipment to pour foam. The three largest
manufacturers in the US don’t even own them. Tempurpedic buys foam from
another manufacturer with the exception of their memory foam. Sealy, Serta,
and Simmons buy their fabric from a weaver and foam from other manufacturers.
Mattress manufacturers quilt, cut, sew, and assemble the mattress.

Technically you are a contract manufacturer. You’ve found a factory in
California to make the mattress for you. Just like Apple doesn’t manufacture
the IPhone, you don’t make the mattress. Matt Firm, Sit n Sleep, Sleepy’s and
others do the same thing for their private label. Tuft and Needle doesn’t
lease or own a manufacturer facility nor do they own a quilting machine,
sewing machines, tape edge machine, etc. You are very slick. To prove my
point, if you are truly a manufacturer, does Tuft and Needle own or lease a
factory where it only produces product for itself and their customers? And, do
you have the equipment, like sewing machines, on your balance sheet that you
depreciate on a yearly basis? Just be honest and try not to twist the truth.
This is problem with the mattress industry.

On Tuft and Needle’s website, it states the typically markup is 1,000%. The
reason that I gave the Matt Firm example is they are largest mattress retailer
in the US and the only publicly traded one so we absolutely know their markup.
All the other top twenty mattress retailers operate in this manner. That type
of markup is atypical. I’d bet you’d be hard press to find one with a 1,000%
markup that isn’t based on some myth. Consumer Reports,
[http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/magazine-
archive/2010/may...](http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/magazine-
archive/2010/may/home-garden/mattresses/8-mattress-mysteries/index.htm), even
mentions that the average gross margin is around 30 to 40% which at most is a
67% markup. On the high end, which Tuft and Needle’s is not based on the
comparable from IKEA and others, the markup is 100%. If you were using memory
foam or latex, your argument may be more valid, but even a high density foam
mattress is considered a low end mattress.

Show me one overpriced 5” foam mattress? If you are offering factory direct
prices, I should be able to find one similar to Tuft and Needle for $800 in a
queen given a 100% markup and that Tuft and Needle is selling the mattress to
us at the same price that a manufacturer sells it to a retailer. Please don’t
tell me that you sell at lower margins than retailers pay for a mattress from
the big brands, who have enormous buying power that would offset your lower
margins as you have previous stated in the IKEA example. At Sears, you can get
a 12” gel memory foam bed on sale for $594 which is significantly higher
quality than a 5” high density foam mattress. [http://www.sears.com/sealy-
fergus-falls-ti2-ii-ultra-firm-qu...](http://www.sears.com/sealy-fergus-falls-
ti2-ii-ultra-firm-queen/p-08215881000P?prdNo=3) I could go on with examples
proving my point.

Tuft and Needle may offer a different shopping experience, but I think that it
is mistruth to talk about the money that customer saves when he/she can buy
product of similar quality and durability at a local big chain mattress
retailer.

You can be a good company selling a mattress made for you. Just don’t be
dishonest and twist the truth like the rest of your brethren in your industry.
It is a disservice to the true small independent manufacturers.

------
tbdr
By reading the comments on Amazon your customer support is top notch - kudos
for that. Almost made me buy until I checked that is no international delivery
;)

Question: why there are only renders on the website instead of real pictures
of the product ?

~~~
johmas
That's a great question. We have used 3 different photographers since we first
launched and haven't been able to get the quality we wanted. So to cut on our
costs, and it was really expensive using photographers + studio + models, we
moved to renderings. This allowed us to depict the product as it looks but
move the camera around and get the right lighting.

~~~
infinitone
Wasn't there an article the other day on how majority of home indoor/decor
photos are actually 3d renderings. All to save cost.

------
ktt3ja
My dad has had trouble sleeping the past few years, and I attribute part of it
due to comfort. Your mattress seems promising. However, (although it may be
affordable for other) $400 queen-size is a heavy investment for us, so I would
like to clear up some concerns first:

1\. What do you think is main thing (comfort-wise) that distinguishes your
product from the $200 queen-size foam mattress on amazon? What sort of
feedbacks have you received in this regard?

2\. You have a 30-days return policy. From my understanding, returning
something like a mattress is extremely inconvenient. What are others'
experience in returning your item?

------
MikeGu
I've got two suggestions. First, the foam materials; what are they? The last
mattress I bought was through amazon and, having researched for a few hours, I
came to know some of the basic traits foam mattresses can have (talalay latex,
dunlop latex, polyurethane, high density, low density, and ways of mixing
those different types within one mattress). Most online buyers will do some
research, they need straight up information. You can mention quality and care
over and over agian, but if you don't have some believable reason to back it
up people can be put off by it. For example tempurepedic's marketing
commercials and pamphlets usually mention some kind of micro-bubble foam.
Which is bs, but people see that and somehow forget to look for another
opinion. It's better if you give me the information than if I have to go out
and find the facts or psuedo-facts from somewhere else.

Second, your website shows your "team". It also says you manufacture them
yourself; not in those words, but that's the gist of it. There is no way those
6 people meet the demands of manufacturing and all the other things involved
in running a product company. Nowhere does it say that the team is the whole
company, but mentioning "we" so often puts a spin on the only staff you can
see or hear mention of. It makes the reader think we're a small company and we
do everything ourselves...and here's our pictures. Show some care for the
whole company and everyone involved. I personally think very highly of
companies who do that.

------
giarc
I think one of the major hurdles to overcome with online mattress sales is
perception of shipping. I do a lot of online shopping and have no issues with
it. If I were in the market for a mattress, my first thought about online
mattress sales would be "It's going to be an arm and a leg just to ship it."
and would perhaps not even start the online process. Just my opinion. (From
Canada so Amazon Prime and free 2 day shipping doesn't apply to me).

~~~
johmas
It really is for sure. We've had to get a special machine to package the
mattress in a smaller box but we're still paying for what's called Dimensional
weight. It's large enough that we aren't being billed for the weight but
rather the size.

Luckily we've managed so far though and have been able to streamline some of
the process. I imagine it will become easier as we grow.

~~~
Slix
Is the size of the box why you aren't using Amazon fulfillment, or is there
some other reason?

~~~
johmas
Primarily because we do the fulfillment ourselves and because we don't want
Amazon to take the customer service away from us.

------
steven2012
What type of foam do you use? My concern has always been that not enough
testing has been done on the foam, and the chemicals used could leech into the
both, especially if you like to sleep naked on the bed. I used to sleep on a
memory foam mattress, but after a couple of years, I noticed a distinct
discoloration of where I slept, and it suggested to me there was some sort of
interaction between my body and the foam, so I threw it out.

~~~
johmas
Our foam is a polyurethane foam like most other foam and memory foam
mattresses. We use 3 different mixtures of foam in our bed, all of which have
been offgas tested and meets the strict standards of the CertiPUR
certification.

We definitely wouldn't sell something that we wouldn't want to sleep on
ourselves but I can understand your concern with sleeping on something that
isn't 100% natural.

If you're concerned about sleeping on foam then you might want to take a look
at a more alternative option. Look for 95% natural latex foam (there is no
such thing as 100% because they use glues) or for all organic cotton/wool
tufted cores.

~~~
saurik
Why did you not go with latex?

~~~
fkhatibloo
Possibly speaking out of turn here, but latex allergies are not insignificant.
It would take a big bite out of their potential market.

------
smartician
> Chemical-free flame retardant, CertiPUR safe foam

Does that mean you're not using TDCPP? Is the foam you use naturally flame
retardant so that you don't need a chemical agent to achieve compliance with
California's strict fire safety standards?

After reading about the health effects of chemical flame retardants, I'm very
interested in getting a low-emission mattress.

~~~
johmas
We do not have TDCPP in our foams. We'd never put something like that in there
not to mention there was a new law passed outlawing the use of FR chemicals
inside of foam.

We met the FR requirements of California, the strictest, by using a
rayon/poly/sand blended material that we quilt into our covers.

CertiPUR essentially tests the off gassing to a their strict standards. The
reason we went with a 3rd party for tests is because the FTC hasn't
established offgassing standards yet. So to hold ourselves accountable and to
give a point of reference to our customers, we had CertiPUR test in their
labs.

If you have any other questions feel free to email me. jt at tuftandneedle

------
nigel182
Here's a little usability feedback on your site:

I decided that I wanted to buy the bed but I couldn't immediately figure out
how. I was looking for a link in the main menu like "Products" or "Beds" and
didn't think to click the large "Buy Now" button. I thought it was just me and
didn't think much more about it.

Later, I told my wife about the bed and she wanted to check out the website.
She had a similar experience. She was wanting to cut to the chase and see a
list of products with prices and couldn't figure out how to get there. She
didn't think to click the Buy Now button either, because she assumed it was
what you clicked when you had things in your cart and were ready to check out.
She said if I hadn't been standing there and told her how to click the Buy Now
button, she would have just headed to Amazon instead and searched for the bed.

Also, you don't ship to Alaska? I just tried to buy one but I can't.

~~~
johmas
That's really great feedback. Thank you.

We don't offer shipping to Alaska but we can make it happen for you if you'd
like. Send me an email jt at tuftandneedle

------
SeanKilleen
I'm very interested in this mattress and we're in the market. However, I'm
concerned about the 5-year warranty, as I thought it would be acceptable to
expect a little more. Is that standard for foam beds, how do you differ from
competitors in this regard, and can you explain why/how you chose a 5-year
warranty model?

~~~
johmas
The primary difference is that our warranty doesn't pro-rate. When you see a
10-25 year warranty, those aren't true warranties in our opinion. They
depreciate the credit you'll get each year and have very strict requirements
(no marks on the bed, sagging must be more than 1" deep, etc). So we offer 5
years for any kind of defect and just do an exchange. We expect it to last
longer than that but 5 years is the point we feel most comfortable at
currently, being a new company.

~~~
Nelkins
You may want to consider putting a similar explanation on your website, in the
/about/care section maybe. It's that kind of extra information/anticipation of
a prospective buyer's question that really makes me feel like a company is
being honest. That, and little things like the note you have under your
comparison chart. Those are probably the small touches that will make your
customers extremely loyal.

~~~
johmas
That's a really great point. I'll be sure to share this with the team today.

------
beginagain
Well done on the website and this product, it is something I would try if I
didn't already have a tempurpedic that I got for free from my neighbor.

So I would like to know if you had experience with textiles, mattresses, etc
before deciding on something like this. I have always hated the mattress
industry, this is actually something I wished for many times. I would have
done it myself, but this is such an easy idea to shoot down in your head
before you even do one bit of research.

How did you have the know-how or confidence that doing something like this was
a possibility? I would think that you would have to have some knowledge of
sewing, materials, etc... How did you figure it all out? Or did you already
have experience with it?

I have so many ideas that I shoot down, even though they are good ideas, they
either seem impossible (I would have considered this a silly idea for me to
try), or way too ambitious.

Any insight into this is appreciated.

------
tocomment
So is this a box spring? Or more like a futon? Maybe add something on up your
site that has a cross section picture?

~~~
dangrossman
According to the Amazon listing, it's just 3 layers of dense foam with a
cotton cover. The story is interesting but the only selling point seems to be
the return policy. You can get more mattress for less money from Ikea or even
Amazon itself, and I wouldn't want to sleep on 5 inches of foam at any price
-- it's more a mat than a mattress, and is going to be even thinner once you
put your body weight on it.

Their twin is $199, and less than half the height of a normal mattress. For
$139 you can get a 5-star-rated 8" foam mattress with 4" of dense foam, 2" of
soft foam and 2" of memory foam, delivered tomorrow with the same
certifications and 5-year warranty. [1] For $229, you can get a 12" foam
mattress, which is more like a traditional full height mattress. [2]

1:
[http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B006L9QN4G/ref=oh_details_o...](http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B006L9QN4G/ref=oh_details_o01_s00_i00?ie=UTF8&psc=1)

2: [http://www.amazon.com/Signature-Sleep-12-Inch-Memory-
Mattres...](http://www.amazon.com/Signature-Sleep-12-Inch-Memory-
Mattress/dp/B005A4OQ9W/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1386949785&sr=8-1&keywords=12+foam+mattress)

~~~
mtsmithhn
We recently bought one of those inexpensive spring mattresses from Ikea. Let
me just say that the thing was about as comfortable as a sack of slinkies.
Would not buy again. And you can't try them out in-store either as they don't
have all of their mattresses on display.

~~~
dangrossman
I wasn't talking about a spring mattress, but a foam mattress just like these.
Ikea's start at $79.

------
sputknick
This is so awesome! I'm excited to see manufacturing and technology coming
together. Do you guys manufacture in the USA? I'm of the opinion that this
type of manufacturing is what can bring jobs back to America. Good luck, I'm
going to show your listing to my wife, see if we can buy.

~~~
daehee
We choose to work with suppliers who don't cut corners on quality, and a large
part of that is sourcing/manufacturing in the USA.

------
imog
What are the technical details of your foam construction? There are varying
grades and several relevant ratings for foam mattress materials - on your
specs page these are not listed.

I would be specifically interested in the relevant grades/ratings for your
support core, and the same in the comfort layer.

The type of information I am interested in is that which is outlined in the
relevant foam sections listed on the following pages:
[http://www.themattressunderground.com/mattresses/comfort-
lay...](http://www.themattressunderground.com/mattresses/comfort-layers.html)
[http://www.themattressunderground.com/mattresses/support-
cor...](http://www.themattressunderground.com/mattresses/support-cores.html)

------
ahuth
As other commenters have stated, the website is really well done. My only
problem, is that it seems as if the Tuft & Needle team mislead (lied) to me
about when the bed was manufactured.

I placed an order on 10/14/2013\. On 10/18, I got an email stating that "The
first stitch is in" and "we've begun crafting your bed."

Nothing about this seemed unreasonable. When I got the bed, though, I noticed
the tag says "Date of manufacture: 08/13."

So...you told me that manufacturing started 4 days after it was ordered, but
really it was made 2 months prior to that.

All in all, the bed IS actually pretty good. When it was made doesn't matter
to me (given that the quality is good), so I don't get what you gain from
lying about that.

Maybe to make it seem like it was hand crafted just for me?

~~~
johmas
I assure you we make them to order and that bed was crafted just for you.

To give some more transparency, we do not have enough warehouse space to store
product longer than a week anyway. The only thing i can think of is that we
had pre-printed law labels and used those on your bed. If you email me your
order number I'll personally check this for you and tell you the exact date
and time when each component was made. We are a "Just in Time" factory and
need to operate lean.

Once an order comes in we begin making the cover about 2-3 business days later
(the first stitch) and the day we ship is the same day we put the cover on the
core and package it up. If we put the cover on earlier, there is a chance it
may get dirty or might be touched by someone without gloves.

I'm also willing to show you some photographs of the room where we operate and
store the cores so you can see how small it is. Please let me know if you'd
like to see that at jt at tuftandneedle

~~~
ahuth
I'll take your word for it. It really is a nice bed. As soon as I saw the date
on the tag, though, I assumed you guys were trying to make it look JIT when it
wasn't.

Thanks for responding to the comment.

~~~
johmas
I'm glad it's been working out well for you.

Regarding JIT, I can see large corps trying to migrate to a process like that
but for us it was the only option that was economically feasible, to be
honest. We are very limited in space to even operate day to day. This may not
have been the case if we were making something that was small but these beds
take up quite a lot of space.

Thank you for the feedback.

------
kadabra9
The site, and the bed, look great. Congratulations.

I'd be really interested to read a follow up post detailing a little more
about your story, how you guys got started, challenges you faced, what you'd
differently, etc...at least the details you're comfortable sharing.

~~~
daehee
Thanks! That's a good idea. We'll follow up with a blog post and share some
more of the backstory.

------
minutetominute
Great work so far!

Your bed solved a very specific problem for me, and it may be a valuable
market for you to target. My job requires me to travel to different locations
for long periods of time, and I needed to find a bed that was very comfortable
and portable. Cots and air mattresses are poor long term solutions. Your
shikibutons came up during my research as one of the best values. I purchased
your mattress and a futon from shop4futons.com. When broken down, the whole
arrangement packs down to a very small size. Now I sleep comfortably every
night knowing that no matter where my job/life takes me I can always find a
good night's rest.

Thanks and keep up the good work!

------
brandonpindulic
This is awesome.

Did you start this as a side project?

Also curious how you built the bed as well…definitely a great price and a very
elegant site. Aligns well with your product.

I don’t know if we have any New Yorkers here, but Bob’s furniture (official
sponsor of just about every NYC sports team) sells lower cost furniture, and
you’d never know it based on their cheesy late night commercials, but they’re
actually an extremely fast growing private company, and did a ton of growth in
the furniture industry during the “great recession”

Kudos to you. You should setup a blog and track progress and tell the story.
I’d definitely be a reader!

~~~
daehee
JT and I left our jobs to start a company together. We sought out a stagnant
industry to disrupt and saw ripe opportunity in mattresses. Most of the
products were mediocre and designed without taste, and there seemed to be a
lot of greed among the major players.

So we launched with a very simple v1 product — an all cotton mattress — and
then iterated from there based on customer feedback and surveys.

Thanks for your feedback!

------
squigs25
Wow. Awesome site, and it's incredible that you've proven to be so disruptive
in just a year. I've already told my friends who might be graduating and
moving soon to check you guys out before trying the traditional big-margin
mattress store at every other corner.

What I'm really intrigued about is how did you manage to get up and running so
quickly - particularly how does one go about sourcing a product like this so
quickly? Clearly you're doing something right!

Also how much time and capital did it take to launch your first mattress line?

------
the-swa
Any insights into how you reached the top of the Amazon rankings in under a
year? If half of your sales are from referrals and social media, what about
the other half?

------
timwut
JT & Daehee, really love the concept and approach to this idea and we're
actually trying to chase a very similar concept (transparent retail, cutting
out the middleman and outrageous markups), but in the bridal space.
[http://somethingnewbridal.com](http://somethingnewbridal.com)

Would love to follow up with you guys specifically to chat sometime if you
have the time. Thanks for the inspiration!

------
bjeanes
I'm not in the market for a new mattress just yet, but probably will be when I
(eventually) move back to Australia since shipping my current mattress just
seems crazy.

Do you guys ship overseas? If not, would introducing international
distributors force you to introduce middlemen that significantly drive up the
price or leave marketing out of your hands? Is there another way or will it
just be US-only for the foreseeable future?

~~~
johmas
We don't ship overseas yet. We have to do some more growing first but it's
something we'd like to provide.

The primary issue we see with expanding is that we want to provide excellent
service and if we were to just ship it and have no presence there then we may
not be able to execute on that.

We may need to actually have a presence in the country to follow through on
the experience we're building in the USA.

~~~
gaza3g
I sure hope you'd be able to ship outside the US soon.

Here in Singapore, the markup on foam mattress is pretty ridiculous as well. I
would love to be able to purchase a mattress at the prices that you're
offering.

------
mrmch
Very happy Tuft & Needle customer chiming in -- both my girlfriend and myself
bought one, absolutely love these mattresses and the company behind them!

------
dobbsbob
Well timed article since I am looking for a mattress right now and was having
a coffee reading HN after going to multiple scammy furniture places

~~~
jedahan
Same here, and I have found
[http://www.sleeplikethedead.com](http://www.sleeplikethedead.com) to be an
excellent resource for researching mattresses.

~~~
dobbsbob
Great success bookmarked that link

------
lakesta
T&N - thanks for sharing your story. Really cool to see you going from a MVP +
landing page to this in a year, that's fantastic! From a financial perspective
did ya'll bootstrap or get an investor? Its neat to see non-SASS related ideas
coming to fruition and shared about on HN. Wishing you guys the best in 2014
and I'll be spreading the word on your behalf.

~~~
johmas
We're bootstrapped and haven't taken any funding.

Thank you for the kind words. I'll share them with the team.

------
BadassFractal
I sleep on this $400 mattress I got at Costco, so if you're telling me that
your mattress is comparable to that of the big boys, this seems like a
nobrainer for me. I didn't think I needed a new one until this post :)

Feedback: I really like the idea of having a boutique mattress (whatever that
means) at an affordable price, a product that I can tell had a lot of thought
put into.

------
seiji
Since there are a lot of generic mattress questions in this thread, start
here: [http://www.themattressunderground.com/mattress-
forum/](http://www.themattressunderground.com/mattress-forum/)

They've coved every question and every scenario imaginable from people
(typically the forum-runner) who have researched these things for years.

~~~
daehee
Agreed. The MU forum may not be the prettiest design to look at, but it's run
by an honest advocate of the industry and there are many mattress
professionals active to answer technical questions.

------
Scramblejams
I'd be interested in a crib mattress if it were offered. The low outgas/no
retardants angle is a good one for that use.

------
Echo117
I've had the Sleep Innovations mattress on my list to buy for a while
([http://www.amazon.com/Sleep-Innovations-SureTemp-Mattress-
Wa...](http://www.amazon.com/Sleep-Innovations-SureTemp-Mattress-
Warranty/dp/B003CT37L0)). Any differences between the two that you'd like to
highlight or comment on?

~~~
johmas
I haven't slept on it personally but generally customers really like our
comfort and feel.

* We also work really hard to provide good customer service and policies.

* Easy returns, helping you find a place to recycle your old beds a warranty that doesn't pro-rate and require you to jump through hoops to qualify for.

* All of our materials are made here in the states.

* We're a small team, I think those guys are pretty huge. They supply to Costco and other stores.

Either way, it's mostly about what the perfect fit is for you. Our bed won't
be the best fit for everyone and we honestly would rather help customers find
what they are looking for.

I can elaborate more and answer more questions offline if you'd like. My
direct line is jt at tuftandneedle

------
PunchyKidder
Site says "Free Shipping on all orders shipping within the Continental US",
but will not let me select Alaska. Should say "Contiguous US" if this is
intentional.

[http://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continental_United_States](http://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continental_United_States)

------
eranation
I have to find that HN thread. When some post on Warby Parker was here in the
homepage, someone commented that the next "too big margin" industry to disrupt
should be the mattress one. Nice going!

One question - did you guys come from a pure technical background? or did you
also have significant experience with the mattress industry before?

well done!

~~~
johmas
Daehee and I are both bay area software guys. Breaking into a new industry
that we had zero domain knowledge definitely wasn't easy. It took us quite a
while to break in. Most suppliers wouldn't return our phone calls and the ones
who did just laughed us out of the room. We had to just keep searching until
we found the right people who believed in us.

~~~
timjahn
"Most suppliers wouldn't return our phone calls and the ones who did just
laughed us out of the room. We had to just keep searching until we found the
right people who believed in us."

Would LOVE to see a blog post detailing your experience here with what you
learned (you know, in the time you have in between building mattresses, heh).
The experience of being rejected multiple times is applicable across so many
entrepreneurs journeys.

------
bhudman
Amazing. I just spent $440 on a king futon mattress. Nice execution. Furniture
has the similar issues to the mattress industry. Expensive, and cheap quality.
So many dining tables in a furniture store, but just 1 in 10 did not wobble.
(yes assembly could be an issue, but mechanically not a sound design in my
opinion)

------
thegeezer3
Brilliant idea, website and judging by amazon, execution. Im sure you will be
having a great new year!

One question: Are your beds flame-retardant?

And if so what are your views on flame retardant mattresses?

Ive read somewhere that in America all beds have to be flame retardant but
recently their overall safety is being questioned (chemicals and fumes etc).

~~~
johmas
We aren't big fans of Flame Retardants. There is a big political ordeal around
the need of them. As an example, FR material delays ignition by only a few
seconds but produces quite a lot more smoke which is the primary killer in a
fire. We should probably do a blog post about it.

As you may know, FR is a requirement and mattresses have to be thoroughly
tested in a lab. We use a rayon/poly/sand blend that is inherently fire
retardant. We chose that material because it is chemical free.

------
gcarre
Good job on the website, simple, looks great!

Quick question, I bought a memory foam mattress 2 years ago and I regret it
every day... I'm a 'hot sleeper', I fixed the 'waking up sweating' problem
with a cotton mattress protector but it's still too hot.

Would I have the same problem with your foam mattress?

~~~
johmas
That's one of the reasons that we're not fans of memory foam. We use a foam
that is breathable and that you don't sink into. Ours has a little more
bounce.

------
resu
I’m trying to understand what the difference is between your mattresses and
say a regular mattress you buy from IKEA. Are these mattresses more like the
futons laid on the floor that are very common in Japan and Korea?

Congratulations with the success on Amazon, and thanks for sharing and not
posting blog spam!

~~~
johmas
Well our current mattress is more in line with a traditional mattress. We
designed it to be compatible with the floor in addition to a frame, this is
how we sort of broke into the market. With a niche angle.

Comparing to Ikea, our prices are only comparable because we cut our margins
almost all the way down but the quality of material is very different. In
other words, our bed won't sag after just 12 months.

Thank you for the kind words.

~~~
koralatov
Are you saying that an Ikea mattress will sag after just 12 months, or are you
actually just saying that yours _won 't_ and leaving it up to the reader to
infer that an Ikea one will?

~~~
johmas
I apologize I wasn't more clear. I don't mean to come across as judgemental of
Ikea. I haven't personally slept on one before other than just testing them
out in the show room, but we do have quite a few customers who have replaced
their Ikea bed with ours who have shared their feedback.

------
blakesterz
I have a non-technical mattress question... why can't I get a mattress that
doesn't give me terrible body impressions!?!? I've gone through several in my
adult life. Once they start sagging it gives me terrible back troubles. Drives
me crazy this can't be solved.

~~~
johmas
When you're shopping for a foam mattress, be sure you are getting something
that has a higher density foam. I'd recommend something above 1.8 lbs. When
looking for memory foam you'll want something even more dense like 4+ lbs.

For body impression, unfortunately most mattresses will do this over time.
This is even more prevalent with natural options such as cotton or wool. You
may want to consider replacing your mattress more frequently and using a
mattress protector that will keep body moisture (sweat, etc) from being
absorbed into the core.

------
onedev
More feedback for you: the animation when loading the reviews on your site is
HIGHLY HIGHLY un-necessary. It's quite annoying actually.

This is the URL I'm talking about:
[https://www.tuftandneedle.com/reviews](https://www.tuftandneedle.com/reviews)

------
amalag
Congratulations on this. After sleeping for many years with a mat on the
floor, it always seemed insane when people spend thousands on mattresses.
Kudos for a minimal affordable mattress. If we replace our $200 foam queen
mattress we will definitely go with yours.

------
kposehn
Very, very cool. I've known several people that have taken a similar approach
to their business to great success.

I do have one question though: do you rely on Amazon for most of your
business? I've known several people who are extremely cautious of that
dependency.

------
VuongN
Congratulations on your success. I really enjoy reading your story and looking
at the web site. Are you guys self-funded? I'm curious about the first few
mattresses and orders. Would love to read a longer and detailed article if not
a little to the text. Thank you.

-V.

~~~
johmas
Maybe we'll do a more in depth blog post about that. We are self funded
entirely.

Thank you for the kind words.

~~~
jdotjdot
Please do. I'd be very interested to read it. I've always been interested in
doing a physical-product type company, but I don't want to take outside
investment, and it would be excellent to hear a successful bootstrapping
story.

------
ddoolin
I happen to be in need of a mattress. We're currently sleeping on the floor
(we just moved) and couldn't afford a mattress on top of all the other stuff
we had to buy up front.

I'm going to buy one! Awesome. They look magnificent.

(When I get my paycheck next week. Ha.)

------
beauzero
Really loved your story. Went to ASU worked for IIS...etc. If you need outside
marketing I would look at Terralever. They are there locally and are very
"private". CJ and Scott will help you out tremendously. Good luck.

------
BIackSwan
Have been looking to buy a new one for a while and this looks to be a great
find (on HN of all the places!).

Would love to have a recommendation for an affordable(!) good looking bed
frame on the site while you guys build the replacement.

~~~
johmas
We've heard customers like West Elm frames:
[http://www.westelm.com/shop/furniture/headboards-bed-
frames/...](http://www.westelm.com/shop/furniture/headboards-bed-
frames/modern-bed-frames/)

Our current frame is just a prototype but is something we'd like to make in
the future.

------
wehadfun
did you have previous matress or furniture experience? How do you make a
matress?

------
marcamillion
This looks awesome.

Does this come with the bedhead & frame, by any chance, or is it just the
mattress?

If it is just the mattress, where can we get the bedhead & stand shown in the
images on your website?

I love that you are taking on a stuffy old industry.

------
stickhandle
>> _Technical: We take a pragmatic approach with everything_

Genuinely curious why pragmatism didn't include a SAAS for the website (like
Shopify) or the use of something like Wordpress with eCommerce plugin?

~~~
johmas
Well we started with a landing page with a simple form. We thought this would
be even simpler than using a Shopify. Once we saw some traction I built the v1
shopping cart in about a day. One of the challenges we had was the software
interfacing with our suppliers. We weren't sure if a 3rd party service would
do that for us so we just built it quickly ourselves.

Daehee and I are both developers.

~~~
MartinCron
Don't ever think you need to apologize for writing your own code.

------
ibsathish
Awesome. Very heart-warming to learn your story of success. Shows real
businesses which solves a definite pain point (that has deep conviction) can
be built without external capital.

All the best for your future.

~~~
johmas
Thank you

------
Gaurav322
It is really a great way of starting a business online. But,amazon is the only
source for income or do you have any other sites from where you are getting
more referrals (less than amazon.com)

------
greenwalls
Awesome reviews! It's probably just me but I had to look around the page for
awhile to find the "shop now" link to see the pricing. Maybe making it bigger
would help.

~~~
johmas
Thank you for the feedback

------
hnriot
I noticed how the web site photos have their EXIF info still intact and the
photos at the bottom (two of) are from an iPhone (5 and 4S)

I bought my foam mattress from Ikea for less.

~~~
johmas
We'll check on that. Thank you for pointing it out.

Regarding Ikea, we're not really able to compete with them on pricing as a
startup and I'm not really sure that'd be a wise move for us once we could. We
really just want to focus on fair pricing and a well designed quality product.

------
100ideas
Everlane for mattresses! Cool. The full-window image on the landing page looks
like a rendering to me, which feels a little cheesy. Is it actually a real
photo?

~~~
QuantumGood
Looks like most sales photos, a combination of photoshoppped elements and a
mixture of photos stitched together.

------
tvladeck
Is there any chance this was inspired by Priceonomics?

[http://priceonomics.com/mattresses/](http://priceonomics.com/mattresses/)

~~~
johmas
Not that I can say for sure but we read HN and it may have had an influence on
us if we read it.

------
grannyg00se
I bought an essentia memory foam mattress years ago that still feels like new.
I wonder how this considerably cheaper mattress compares in quality.

------
cven714
Why couldn't you have posted this two months ago before I spent $1200 on a
mattress?

Great site, especially the emphasis on Truth and Honesty. Very enticing.

------
swalkergibson
Good to see some people doing cool things in Tempe, AZ! Best of luck to you
and your team, it seems like you have a really great product going!

------
cmiller1
The title of this article sounded to me like one of those statistically
generated ones that were on here a little while ago!

~~~
johmas
We did pass it around the team to make sure it sound right. That generator
must be pretty good.

------
my_username_is_
How did you identify the mattress industry as needing disruption? Did you have
any personal experience in this space before?

~~~
johmas
No previous experience. It was sort of random how we came to mattresses. It
came out of a discussion we were having on a lunch break in downtown Palo
Alto. I was raging about a bed I had just bought for $3,000+ and wasn't
satisfied with the comfort.

It started from there.

------
tootie
Now I'm curious about the mattress industry. I have always wondered why
mattresses need salesmen and dedicated stores.

~~~
dcaunt
I definitely want to try a mattress and see how it feels before I buy it.
Especially if it's going to cost a lot of money.

~~~
infinitone
I'm reading this sentiment a lot on this thread. But it seems these guys are
surely not the first to go against this trend and achieve success. Another
example is Indochino (suits for men). Apple sold Macs strictly through their
site way before they launched their stores.

The line of trying it in real life is getting spread pretty thin and soon will
diminish against the power of social media and online customer reviews. Why
would I need to try it myself when I can read tons of reviews online of people
who bought the product? Surely a review will actually be more helpful than
trying it myself since it could delineate facts that I may not of considered.

~~~
koralatov
Really? I see that sentiment quite a lot, but I don't really think it holds. A
mattress is definitely something I'd want to try before buying --- comfort,
like taste, is such a subjective thing that no number of online reviews could
really replace just lying on one for ten minutes.

------
livestyle
Interesting so are you using amazon for fulfillment as well?

They kind of replaced a traditional wholesale supply chain for you. Brilliant!

------
dusklight
On what basis do you make the claim that you are the #1 rated mattress? I see
that you have mattresses that are 5 star rated, but that does not imply you
are the best one. According to Amazon's "Top Rated" mattresses, your brand is
not even in the top 10. [[http://www.amazon.com/gp/top-rated/home-
garden/3732961/](http://www.amazon.com/gp/top-rated/home-garden/3732961/)]

~~~
johmas
We currently are #1 in Top Rated in our category of Mattresses & Box Springs
which is the category that encompasses all of those products.

We aren't ranked as the #1 Best seller which we don't mean to cause any
confusion with. Those are typically Prime only products and those are ranked
by sales volume.

There may also be a difference in ranking if you're in a region that we don't
ship to such as outside of the USA. I'm not sure how Amazon differs rankings
by country.

------
charleyramm
Some of your links open in new windows - I really hate that. Also your logo
looks a little grainy on a retina screen.

------
daswolle
Have you looked into Amazon Prime?

And I'm definitely a fan. This is perfectly timed and I'll probably be
ordering one soon.

~~~
daehee
Yes, we'd love to offer Prime shipping at some point. The reason why we are
hesitant to do so right now is because we want to handle our own customer
service.

Thanks!

------
jeffehobbs
Hey, good luck. The mattress business is a terrible quagmire. Nice to see
someone trying to disrupt that mess.

------
nakovet
Do you guys have any plans for Canada?

~~~
daehee
We are available in the US only at the moment, but Canada would be the next
logical expansion for distribution. That being said, we don't have a specific
date on this yet as we don't want to overextend ourselves and risk the quality
of our service.

~~~
j45
Sent you a message - I like a mattress in Canada but don't want to have to
order it to the US and bring it home myself :)

~~~
byjess
There are re-shipping companies that can send you orders from the US to
Canada.

------
lpgauth
Do you also sale bed frames or just the mattress? What bed frame do you
recommend for your mattresses?

~~~
johmas
We recommend a platform bed frame without a boxspring for the best feel.

The frame that we have in our photos is of our design but we're not really
able to move into hard goods yet. Maybe once we grow a bit more.

West Elm has some nice simple designs that we like.

~~~
lpgauth
Great, will probably be buying a new new mattress next month. Great timing :)

~~~
johmas
That's great. If you have any other questions feel free to shoot them to me
direct jt at tuftandneedle

------
smewp
Great job on chosen market, website and pricing. Definitely looking at this
for our next bed.

------
kbelbina
How do you compare with IKEA mattresses? They always seem fairly priced to me.

------
pre-show-mac
What country are the materials from, and where are the beds assembled?

~~~
johmas
USA for all the materials and we assemble them ourselves here too.

------
aagha
What was your measurement of Customer Sat? The rating on Amazon.com?

~~~
johmas
Net Promoter Score is how we measure Customer Satisfaction. Amazon is good but
not as much breadth as we'd like from our customer base.

~~~
aagha
What was the size of your N for a given month?

Net Promoter can be highly flawed due to the following:

\- It's a composite index and so the margin of error (MoE) for your promoters
and seperately for detractors combine to create a NPS MoE which, unless your N
was sizable, could be quite large

\- Due to the previous point, it's hard to trend NPS; if your MoE is +/\- 10
points in two seperate periods of time, unless you had a HUGE swing in your
NPS score (which is another problem w/ small N's when calculating NPS) its
hard to tell if your NPS score (really) went up or down

\- I've seen many cases where the NPS score has "gone up" period over period,
but the number of promoters actually decreased; did you look at the data deep
enough to make sure that didn't happen?

------
budu3
What a beautifully designed site. Do you have a designer on staff?

~~~
daehee
Thanks! Yes, all our design and development is being done in-house.

------
MrBuddyCasino
Looks pretty good, the messaging is very much like Everlane.

------
lucaspiller
Would you mind doing an AMA on /r/entrepreneur?

------
joeldidit
Any plan on making a latex bed? Those are the best.

------
jtmoniii
AWESOME!

Worth it just so you can avoid a freaking furniture store!

------
benhirashima
your site doesn't load at all if javascript is disabled. i recommend fixing
this. otherwise, good looking site.

------
brianmcc
Any plans for UK / Europe shipping?

------
Scorpion
Why no king sized on Amazon?

~~~
johmas
We just released the king size and want to collect some feedback on it before
posting to Amazon.

Amazon is really limiting when it comes to communication with our customers.
This is a major pain point for us for that channel.

~~~
grey
Any chance of a California King any time soon?

------
untitledwiz
Love the website, good job!

------
bhanks
Deahee,

Congrats!

------
coreymgilmore
who makes your mattresses?

~~~
johmas
We make them and fulfill them and we source our supplies such as fabrics and
foams from other factories in the US.

~~~
coreymgilmore
Thanks for the response John,

Please take a look at our website and give us a call. We sell water based,
environmentally friendly, high performance adhesives for the mattress
industry. We are leaders in this market and we can definitely help you. Please
see the link below.

Thanks! [http://www.simalfa.com/](http://www.simalfa.com/) SIMALFA
973-423-9266

------
byjess
Well... Tuft and Needle is rediculous name for a mattress company. But
congrats to your success. Also, please switch up your renders for actual
photos. The renders are quite obvious and feel deceptive.

~~~
nollidge
> Tuft and Needle is rediculous name for a mattress company

I like it. It's classy, rustic, gives the impression of hand-made, and
everybody likes seeing an ampersand in a nice typeface. Compare "Crate &
Barrel".

~~~
byjess
I first thoughts were "matresses are tuff and may feel like needles in them."

