
Rollerball pens that use fountain pen ink - toymachine
https://unsharpen.com/rollerball-pen-fountain-pen-ink/
======
danShumway
If you currently use a ballpoint pen, switching to a rollerball will be a
_huge_ jump in quality to your writing experience. However, if you already use
rollerballs, and you're looking at this and thinking you'd like to try it out,
but you haven't ever tried a fountain pen, I would heavily advise giving one a
shot. If you know you need a rollerball, then a stick with a rollerball. But
don't dismiss a fountain pen out-of-hand -- the cheaper brands will be the
same price as the pens listed here, and will be a big jump in quality for a
nontrivial number of readers.

In particular, I've used a Fine nib Twisbi Eco (~$30) for multiple years now
as my main pen, and I consider it to be one of the better purchases I've ever
made. It's cheap enough that I can throw it into a bag or my pocket alongside
my keys without worrying too much about it getting scratched or stolen, but it
still looks reasonably nice, writes beautifully, holds a ton of ink, and is
just a joy to use. There are cheaper pens out there, but I really like having
a piston-fill pen, and I think it's just a really good quality, versatile, fun
line -- there are even a lot of different color options.

I can describe mechanically why a fountain pen feels good, but I can't really
convey how it feels. The best thing I can say is that it takes something
that's very mundane (writing) and it makes it feel a tiny bit more pleasurable
and 'extravagant' (for lack of a better word). I write a lot, I fill notebooks
with handwritten notes. With a fountain pen, it just feels good to write. My
handwriting has improved a lot, particularly my cursive -- I suspect in part
because I pay more attention to what I'm writing. It's easy to take care of,
but it feels good to occasionally wash it out and switch to a new ink color.
It feels nice to use permanent things.

I've seen a few people talking about avoiding fountain pen ink even in the
rollerballs because they dissolve in water. On that note I will swear by
Noodler's Black Waterproof ink. I've completely submerged and soaked pages
that I wrote on with that ink, and not only does it not dissolve, it does not
even smudge. It's really crazy. One of the really nice things about fountain
pens is that there's such a wide variety of colors and styles and glitters,
and it just adds to this feeling of making your handwriting feel more
expressive and personal. It makes total sense to me that rollerball users
would want to be able to use the same ink.

~~~
iCarrot
Nice to see another fountain pen enthusiast here. I love my Twisbi Eco too, in
fact I love all demonstrator pens especially with the Iroshizuku ink. It's not
unlike swirling wine.

But for beginners I would only recommend the Pilot Metropolitan, coming at
~$19 with fancy metal body and high quality Pilot nib. That pen is insane bang
for your buck and will last years.

~~~
wenc
As someone who owns two Pilot Metros F and TWSBI Ecos M and F, I would say it
really depends on several variables like how big your handwriting is, what
kind of paper you write on etc.

The Pilot Metro is often recommended as a beginner pen, but I’m not sure if it
ought to be. The F is a little scratchy even on Rhodia Premium paper.

In retrospect, I would have saved the $15 and paid $30 for a TWSBI Eco F. That
said, there is a mental barrier to paying $30 for a pen, especially for
beginners who are just testing out the waters. On the other hand, the Pilot
Metro doesn’t really adequately represent the true pleasures of writing with a
fountain pen—-it gives one glimpses but falls short of a full experience.

P.s. pen enthusiasts should check out the upcoming Chicago Pen Show. Yes,
there’s a trade show for pens.

~~~
iCarrot
Well that is because the Japanese nibs are finer than the European
counterparts, largely because of dense kanji characters. The rule of thumb is
always go one size up for Japanese pen. I have a Metro M, it is smooth as
butter.

I'm also eyeing the Twsbi Go line. If it write comparable to the Eco I'll
purchase a bunch of them as gift (friends seem less intimidated by the
unassuming pens)

------
filleduchaos
As someone that still fills a notebook roughly every three months, these pens
are actually pretty nifty. Most regular ballpoints aren't ergonomic at all (I
don't know how to describe it, but they take way too much force to write with
and that leads to hand cramps in a long writing session). Rollerballs are way
easier on the hand, and I tipped over to buying refillable ones because
someone introduced me to J. Herbin ink and now I hate writing with anything
else.

I'm still very much a pen noob though - I just like vivid ink and not having a
cramp after half an hour of steady writing.

~~~
yumraj
Try fountain pen, they are much more easier to write, as in even less effort.

Especially if you go with a medium nib.

~~~
sizzle
My nibs are always getting clogged and feel dull like it starts to lack the
precision it once had where the nib once felt like it was exquisitely carving
into the paper. Any tips on good nib hygiene or how to restore nibs?

I only have used Lamy fine and extra fine nibs, any recommendations for other
companies?

~~~
phaus
That shouldn't be happening even with an extra fine nib, what kind of paper
are you using?

~~~
sizzle
I switch mediums often which might be the reason. Typically I use my
leuchtturm1917 notebooks which have decent weight paper that absorbs the ink
nicely.

I think when I switch materials on occasion when I'm in a meeting and only
have scrap paper, think some waxy coated film papers e.g. 3M post-it notes
material, this is clogging my nib somehow. What do you think? I never made
this connection before, might help me avoid some future grief if I can stick
to proper fountain pen paper.

I use noodler's bullet proof black ink.

I have several Lamy pens up to $100

~~~
phaus
I'd bet its the scraps of paper and the post its. The nicer paper for fountain
pens actually has some kind of finished surface, which prevents ink from
bleeding much at all. For paper where ink bleeds a lot, the surface of the
paper is becoming completely saturated to the point where your nib is scraping
soft chunks of ink soaked paper up as you write. That's probably what does it.
If some of the paper is waxy, that could also cause clogging.

Different inks might have better results on a wider variety of paper, but
that's something you have to try until you get something that works. I
generally always either keep a high quality notebook around or I just use felt
tip pens and keep my fountain pen at home if good paper isn't available.

Black and Red makes a decent quality notebook that's a good amount cheaper
than Rhodia, Leuchtturm, etc.

Also stay away from moleskin they are trendy garbage. Ink bleeds like crazy
because the paper they fill them with is of incredibly poor quality.

------
chrisseaton
I work in a job where I have to sign things with a fountain pen for etiquette
reasons. I wonder if this will give the same effect as a fountain pen but be
more practical.

~~~
egypturnash
Probably not, all your signatures will be with nice ink, sure, but they'll
still look like ballpoint signatures rather than fountain pen signatures.

~~~
GuiA
It depends if it’s the act of signing itself that is ceremonalized, or the
quality of the ink on the paper.

~~~
chrisseaton
What matters is that it appears to have been a fountain pen when the recipient
receives it. That's probably a combination of ink viscosity, pressure on the
paper, things like that.

------
thom
Yes! If there's one thing I always wanted out of good pens that don't leak or
cause a mess, it's a way to make them leak and cause a lot of mess. Finally!

~~~
slowmovintarget
You're not very familiar with modern fountain pens, are you?

Most don't leak, and if you are really finicky about mess (like I used to be
before children) you can fill them with a syringe... not a stray drop
anywhere.

The utility (and cost-effectiveness in many cases) of bottled inks, and
avoiding the landfill waste of using cartridges is worth the extra effort in
cleaning and maintaining a fine instrument.

~~~
thom
That sounds pretty much exactly as high maintenance as I was picturing.

~~~
fishmaster
Which is not really that much. Clean it once in a while and the refill is
extremely easy, even with a syringe.

------
ThePhysicist
Nice, I was looking for something like this. I currently use a Lamy Al-Star
with an ink converter (to use ink from a bottle instead of single-use
cartridges). Really great for writing but sometimes I miss the speed and
fluidity of a rollerball. Lamy also offer rollerball pens but only with
single-use cartridges that are ridiculously overpriced (I think around 3 € for
a single cartridge which might last a few weeks to months) compared to normal
ink, which costs around 3-5 € for 30 ml and will last several years. My
writing fills roughly one 100 page notebook per year, in addition I write down
a lot of things on scrap paper as well.

~~~
ryanobjc
Try a broader nib - with a larger surface it’s less scratchy. Also your nib
probably needs a smoothing and tune up too! There’s many resources online to
learn how to do that. In short very fine abrasives.

~~~
sizzle
All my nibs are failing, please share any trusted guides that aren't just
cleaning the reservoir with soap and water.

~~~
alfalfasprout
Flip the pen so you're writing with the nib backwards. Then gently press to
re-align the tines. Then do a bunch of figure eights with the pen in the
correct writing position on a brown paper lunch bag (around 5 minutes). Press
down harder than how you'd normally write and see if that doesn't help.

~~~
sizzle
I'll try this thanks!

------
raintrees
I went all the way to a fountain pen that I put a refillable cartridge into,
currently a Cross silver beauty with Blue-Black ink from Japan - Gorgeous
color.

Originally I studied and trained as an Architect - A lettering sheet a week to
practice my hand lettering skills.

Rather than go into Architecture, I went into IT, eventually being a phone
jockey providing tech support for half a decade. While trying to keep up
(somewhat) with the conversation, my note taking speed meant my lettering
quality went out the window.

So I bought my first fountain pen to force myself to slow down and spend more
time lettering better. If I forget, my ink stained hands serve as a reminder.
:)

I have only changed pens when I lose the previous (like once to the TSA along
with a pocket knife, another time while using a shopping cart as a skateboard
back to the market). Hopefully someone found that one and put it to use...

Although I do not like fat pens, the cartridge style cannot get too thin,
which also means they are more pleasant to hold in the hand. That turned out
to be important to me if significant time is spent using it.

Of course, YMMV.

------
randomcarbloke
I much prefer a ballpoint to rollerball or fountain, I grew up using a
fountain pen and still have a couple of nice ones but they are just don't do
it for me, rollerballs sacrifice the practicality of a ballpoint and the style
of a fountain, why not just pick one or the other.

------
jonrx
I went a little overboard with fountain pen ink a few years back and stopped
using fountain pens until recently. I'm left handed, but my wrist placement
(underhanded) doesn't cause any problems with ink smear. I found that using
them for notes and summaries "slows me down" and I process information better.
YMMV.

I use the Herbin ballpoint for quick notes and I really like it. For longer
sessions, I'll whip up a Pilot Vanishing Point as I find that the added flex
causes less fatigue. I also ordered Yookers felt tip pens that takes FP ink
([https://yookers-shop.com/](https://yookers-shop.com/)). I love the Sharpie
pens, so if they feel the same, I might just hoard them and slowly empty my
ink collection.

------
Pamar
There is also a small scale producer that is not listed in the article:
Kakimori (Tokyo).

[https://kakimori.com/english](https://kakimori.com/english)

I own one of their ink pens but I use it rarely so I can't say much about
durability.

------
joecool1029
I'm an ambidextrous and writing by hand tends to be a tedious experience for
me. Where many in this thread are enthusiasts or writing professionals, I
rather want to convey a more utilitarian mindset. My goals are to have people
understand what I write and not be in pain. For whatever reason, ballpoint
pens and I can't mix with legibility. I believe it's the pressure and dragging
that kills it for me. Pencil is also not great when writing with my left
(because it smudges, using a #2.5 pencil helps a bit, but then I'm using more
pressure to get the lines dark).

I found I could write much more legibly using a fountain pen, so I've been
using them since 1st or 2nd grade. There's a ton of drawbacks to using
fountain pens for everything daily. First, while rare, I'd still get leaks and
ink on my hands. For instance, if I dropped the pen. Second, there's a bit of
a maintenance burden on fountain pens, the nibs need to be cleaned from time
to time. Finally, pretty much all of these inks will wash out if the paper
gets wet, so it's super bad for legal documents. I like the Pilot Metropolitan
fountain pens as they strike the right balance of affordability and quality.
The Fine nib for me (correlates to EF from American/European companies) seems
to be the sweet spot, Medium feels imprecise for me. Noodler ink seems great,
I was previously using Schaeffer ink and it was just ok.

The latest pens I've come enjoy using are Pilot's Frixxion line. I grabbed on
a whim awhile back and feel like every student of mathematics should know of
these pens. They are a gel pen with fine point options but they can be
'erased' by rubbing a plastic nub on the back against paper. This heats up the
paper and causes the ink to disappear. The effect can be reversed by throwing
the paper in the freezer if erasure was unintended (or if a notebook was left
in an extremely hot cat). I wish I had known about these pens when I was in
school. Gel-type pens seem a bit more practical than fountain for daily carry
or occasional use, not as good as a fountain but the ink seems to flow better
than ballpoint and the tips don't get messed up like a felt pen.

EDIT: More on topic though, I have tried rollerball pens and did not like
them. They seemed even less precise than ballpoints for me and skipped more.
Terrible writing experience all around, would not do again.

~~~
ecspike
Many Noodler's inks are waterproof and have served me well even for legal
docs.

I've even found a bunch of other inks that aren't advertised as
waterproof/resistant that ended up to be waterproof depending on the paper.
For example J. Herbin Perle Noire on meh paper.

I do fine with them as an everyday carry, my gripe is mainly when I get a new
pen, paper or ink knowing that a paper might not like a certain pen or ink.

~~~
bebna
If you get your hands on it:

Rohrer & Klingner dokumentus or sketch-ink

First one is certified document proof, the others work the same, just that the
used pigments are not as hardened against chemicals to allow strict iso
certification.

They are both fast at drying and once dry, won't give a inch to water. Not
even coloring the water and marking the rest of the paper, where it flowed.

------
throw0101a
Accompanying video with some writing samples:

* [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7lBPfSTC_p8](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7lBPfSTC_p8)

------
odiroot
Hah! I use exactly the same model as pictured. It's just so pleasant to write
with. And even works for lefties like me.

~~~
ryanobjc
I thought the ink drying speed was an issue for lefties and the resultant
smear. These pens don’t seem to solve it... same ink after all.

~~~
slowmovintarget
There are fast-drying fountain pen inks designed especially for left-handed
overwriters. Have a look at Noodler's Bernanke series, for example:
[https://noodlersink.com/product-tag/fast-
drying/](https://noodlersink.com/product-tag/fast-drying/)

Funny story, the inks are named that as a commentary on Quantitative Easing.
So much cash had to be printed so quickly, you see, that Bernanke really
needed the ink to dry really fast...

------
ryanobjc
I guess I don’t quite get it. The inks are the least good thing about fountain
pens - the ink drys slow and often doesn’t well on cheap paper.

I personally love fountain pens. The style, the tech, the aesthetic,
everything. So this to me seems like a step back - and the writing end breaks
every 20-30 fills!

~~~
mrob
How well a fountain pen writes on cheap paper depends very much on the ink.
Several years ago, when I first became interested in fountain pens, I
exchanged ink samples with other enthusiasts, and tried many different inks. I
had the best results with Noodler's Black, which avoided feathering or bleed-
through even on cheap paper. I got through a 3oz jar of it, and I'm currently
using a 3oz jar of Noodler's Bad Black Moccasin, which I don't like as much.
Next jar will be the normal Noodler's Black again.

Nib size also makes a difference; this was with an extra fine nib on a Lamy
Safari.

~~~
slowmovintarget
I'm currently working my way through a bottle of Noodler's Dark Matter. Really
well behaved ink, though I'll likely trade-up to Noodler's X-Feather (anti-
feather black) or plain black.

I have samples of Noodler's 54th Massachusetts and Lexington Gray that I'm
looking forward to trying.

------
ianai
OT but on topic of choosing writing instruments. My personal go to are the
pilot G2 rollerball gel ink pens - preferably 1 mm tip. They feel very smooth.
Look more authoritative somehow too. Can be bought by he dozen.

------
itronitron
If anyone knows of a 1mm rollerball that can handle acrylic (pigment-based)
ink please post it here. While Molotow has several nice pen nibs they are
plastic and wear out sooner than I would like.

------
ittan
I use a western broad for most of my writing. I would also recommend Lamy
Safari as a good beginners pen because of its ease of use and wide variety of
nib choices.

------
m0zg
You can take my Uni-Ball UB-157 from my cold, dead hands.

------
crtlaltdel
this thread represents the reasons i love HN. i totally learned a lot from
this!

------
SlowRobotAhead
Am I missing the point here?

>You might be wondering, why is this a question?

Why yes, exactly my thought, please tell me...

>If you check out Unsharpen’s Ink Types Guide, you’ll see that while
rollerball ink is great, fountain pen ink is quite special.

Oh, ok, so I'll follow that link, and...

>It is, of course, the ink used in fountain pens, but it takes thousands of
forms. The ink can be in a bottle or cartridge, it can be iron gall or water-
based, it can be handmade or produced by the vat, it can be lubricated,
fluorescent, quick-drying, or any number of other qualities. [...] Fountain
pen inks are a looser, more watery consistency compared to all other pen inks.
This means they are free-flowing and prone to splashing, forming droplets, and
doing other things that have been known to ruin countless shirts.

Ok... So if I an to recap... The only real reason to use a ball pen with
fountain ink is so I can refill it with whatever ink I like? OK, HN, I have
some particular interests as well, but this is about the article of least
importance I've ever seen on here.

It's as if all my other problems in life have been solved and I can be a
pen/ink hipster? Maybe for someone, but I guess I'm just not there yet!

~~~
OnACoffeeBreak
I'm not into pens, so maybe sometime who is can shed light on the specifics.
In general, I see this as any other hobby that can be taken to obsessive
levels. I see it as similar to, for example, building your own PC and making
sure all parts are color matched and all cables are routed in an esthetically
pleasing ways, or growing Bonsai.

~~~
bransonf
You can draw a close parallel to mechanical keyboards. If you spend all day
behind a keyboard, it makes sense to invest in a good experience. If you spend
all day writing, it makes sense to have a nice pen.

