

Ask HN: Why do we still follow the 'Folder' metaphor? - theschwa

I've noticed that I often have files that feel like they would be equally fitting in one of several folders, and it's easy to forget where I've put them; so I resort to searching. I understand that it would be difficult to completely get rid of the folder metaphor, but why aren't there any tag based file browsers?
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ElliotH
The problem is this needs to be an change throughout an operating system or it
doesn't work.

I know there have been userspace file system projects for Linux systems that
have attempted the tagging system, but none have really become mainstream.
Gnome seems to be going in the direction of time-pased file sorting which is
another non-folder oriented way of thinking.

On the Apple side I think they really want their users to be searching in
preference to tagging.

Microsoft had a go with Windows 7, but obviously they want users to be able to
upgrade their old operating system making it impractical to make it a global
default.

But the other thing to consider is 'Cloud' computing, a lot of online services
(eg Google's) use tagging rather than a folder modal. This means if software
moves more online/browser based we'll see tag-based systems emerge naturally.

Edit: Fixed some typos

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noss
I'm a big fan of tags, and I would argue that we are giving up the folder
metaphor, it is just happening online first (tags was a big part of "web 2.0"
sites, gmail's labels, using google to find files based on keywords, etc).

The location where files are stored is where tags are a bit awkward. The
folders are clear there. It's easy with folders to copy a picture from an SD
card to my hard drive. From hd to a network mount.

The alternative would be to have magical tags, so everything you gave the 'hd'
tag to, it would be stored on your hd.

In fact, the whole concept of adding a storage device to the system is strange
with tags. Mount a 1Tb network share and automatic indexing starts? A
standardized format for storing tag-information? What about computers that
just change files directly without updating the tags? What about incompatible
formats?

I wonder if applications could do a better job at tagging up files they create
compared to the approach (in apple spotlight) to have search engine plugins
that can find tags based on file content (mp3 id data, jpeg exif data,...).

If applications were more tag-aware, they could at least allow you to browse
your files by tags instead of by folders.

~~~
theschwa
I think you've addressed something pretty important. There is a difference
between where something is stored and what is being stored. My issue with the
folder metaphor is that it assumes those two are related when it reality they
can be completely decoupled.

Choose to save the file either on HD, external drive, or online, then choose
how to find it, tags.

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telemachos
Well, in a way, doesn't Apple's Spotlight provide a kind of tag/search based
file system?

For what it's worth, my answer to your actual question is that for a large
number of people and cases, the folder metaphor works well. You have
individual items (files, pictures, songs, etc.) which belong in one bin. When
you want that item, you open that bin. It's a real-life scenario that we all
make use of every day (consider a refrigerator or a drawer with clothing, for
example)

I'm not saying it's perfect, and certainly it would often be better or easier
to be able to say "show me all the files that are (1) in Ruby and (2) have a
certain method name" rather than "show me all the files in this bin." But
folders are not too complex and cover a lot of essential cases.

~~~
theschwa
It works well until you have things that don't just fit in one bin. The folder
metaphor has worked fine for me until I started getting enough files that they
were harder to find. (Is that song in my blues folder or jazz? Is that photo
in the Family folder or GroupShots)

I understand that it would be hard to completely remove folders, but it would
be nice to have the option to use tags for those of us with over growing file
collections.

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fragmede
<http://wiki.github.com/marook/tagfs/demo>

It needs to have its corners rounded and rough edges smoothed out if you were
looking for an easy solution, but it's there.

~~~
fexl
Nifty! You implemented a full "cross product" or "permutation" directory
structure of all tag sets of all sizes, with symlinks at the leaves.

~~~
fragmede
Err, I had nothing to do with the creation/implementation at all! I'm just a
knowledgeable hanger-on.

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radu_floricica
I think some file systems at least aren't as incompatible with this idea as
one would think. In linux (all fs?) one has hard-links, which pretty much
decouple the file from its location. And from what I remember in earlier FATs,
you have different mechanisms for file management and location management
(File Allocation Tables for file management, and special directory files over
it).

As to why there is no application to take advantage of it... maybe because it
requires too much mind-bending. Most people stay as far away as possible from
hard links. When you delete a file you want it deleted, not just "not here
anymore".

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keefe
I see it as a totally different model. I don't particularly want my files to
be stored by tags. I keep a very organized repository of all my stuff. If I
want music I go to media/music if I want code I'm working on I'll go to
code/projects or stuff I'm not I'll go to code/legacyprojects etc. Directory
structures have hierarchy, traditional tag systems do not.

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jmonegro
Windows 7's Libraries address this exact problem.

