
Takata’s Air Bag Crisis - usaphp
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2016-06-02/sixty-million-car-bombs-inside-takata-s-air-bag-crisis
======
mc32
There is little doubt these bags are dangerous and pose a known threat to
passenger safety. But to call these car bombs is irresponsible. They are not
purposely armed with the intent to inflict damage to people. Yes, they have
design flaws which have resulted in deadly injuries. But while technically
these are explosives to aid in deploying the safety mechanism, they are not
bombs as most people understand things.

This is as unjust as calling people who get arrested "disappeared" with all
the connotations that word has (i.e. secret summary executions). This has the
same approach, a bombastic approach to headline writing. For shame!

~~~
paganel
When I read that they used ammonium nitrate first thing I thought about was:
"That's bomb-material, how can you put that into a running vehicle?". One of
the worst road-side accidents that happened in my country was this:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mih%C4%83ile%C8%99ti_explosion](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mih%C4%83ile%C8%99ti_explosion)

> The Mihăileşti explosion occurred on 24 May 2004 in the village of
> Mihăileşti, Buzău County, Romania. A truck loaded with ammonium nitrate
> rolled over and caught fire, and one hour later exploded killing at least 18
> people and another 13 were wounded

Notice the "one hour later" part. They are indeed ticking time bombs.

~~~
digler999
> That's bomb-material

how else do you suggest they produce enough gas within milliseconds to inflate
two or more airbags ?

~~~
paganel
As I understood from the article ammonium nitrate is way more unstable
compared to the other solutions. Apart from the Oklahoma terror attack and the
case I mentioned there is also this
([https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_Norway_attacks#Breivik_Ge...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_Norway_attacks#Breivik_Geofarm)):

> The place of business was given as Åmot in Hedmark. On 4 May 2011 Breivik
> purchased six tonnes (13,000 lb) of fertilizer through Geofarm at
> Felleskjøpet, three tonnes (6,600 lb) of ammonium nitrate and three tonnes
> of calcium ammonium nitrate. According to neighbours, all the fertilizer was
> stored in his barn.[47] After conducting a reconstruction of the bomb with
> equivalent amount of fertilizer on the farm in Åmot, police and bomb experts
> concluded that the bomb had been 950 kilograms,[48] about the same size as
> the one used in the 2002 Bali bombings.

All I'm saying is that they could have chosen another explosive-like material,
not one which is known to be unstable and which has been used by terrorists to
make bombs exactly for this reason.

~~~
hga
(Note, all this is based reading, explosives are something I've thoroughly
avoided, I like my fingers.)

Nope, ammonium nitrate is a secondary explosive, and as far as I know a rather
insensitive one, although how insensitive would depend on what fuel you mix it
with. I don't recall if it was mentioned if Takata is mixing it with one. By
itself, it's quite insensitive, but in large quantities in worse case
conditions has resulted in some of the worst explosives disasters:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ammonium_nitrate_disasters](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ammonium_nitrate_disasters)
Note the Texas City one was in theory pure ammonium nitrate (although I wonder
if it was pure enough...), many of the others had other stuff contributing, or
starting the disaster.

Don't know about sodium azide, but lead azide has been used as a detonator,
and therefore a primary explosive as far as I know, in non-corrosive firearms
primers for some time (although I think lead styphnate is more popular).

Ammonium nitrate is a preferred explosive component for many classes of users,
military, civilian, and terrorist, simply because it's very very cheap, it's
also used as fertilizer. Which of course then makes it relatively accessible
to the latter class of users, but not in the ideal form, the more surface
area, the higher the boom.

Which circles back to the Takata problem, they haven't been able to keep it
from turning into a powder, which has the max surface area and turns it into
an explosive that turns the air bag into a true, metal fragment and splinter
producing bomb.

------
metaphor
> [Shigeshisa Takada] didn’t mention that Takata had _tried_ to fix the
> problem by changing the propellant formula in 2008.

My Acura TL is affected by this airbag recall, and it's a fairly recent 2012
model too. Whatever changed circa 2008 apparently didn't work.

> NHTSA says those companies are making 70 percent of the replacement
> inflators.

When I took it to the dealership for servicing about a week ago, I also
inquiried about the airbag issue. According to service rep, it's a quick 30
minute fix assuming parts on hand...problem is the 30-45 day lead time for
parts, which blew my mind away considering the nature of the issue in a state
well known for its warm weather and humidity. Considering the logistic
predicament, I wonder how quality will be affected given the number of 3rd-
party players manufacturing a complex replacement component for a proprietary
airbag system.

~~~
lstamour
The 2008 fix, according to the article, started in Europe and was also used in
China.

------
unexistance
1998 article on the Paresh Khandhadia, the Takata engineer

[http://www.autonews.com/article/19980223/ANA/802230779/slow-...](http://www.autonews.com/article/19980223/ANA/802230779/slow-
starter:takatas-non-azide-airbag-inflator-took-a-while-to-catch-)

~~~
shiven
So, he basically created a very safe airbag inflator (tetrazole) and later
screwed everything up by going with ammonium nitrate? WTF!

------
danso
A great longform article, one of the best indepth overviews of a company's
culture and current controversies that I've read in awhile...and a pretty
egregious controversy at that.

------
Animats
Check your car by VIN here:
[https://vinrcl.safercar.gov/vin/](https://vinrcl.safercar.gov/vin/)

------
masida
I think this story also shows the problems with patents. If Takata was allowed
to use the mixture that was "invented" by other airbag makers, would they have
used their dangerous ammonium nitrate mixture?

It also shows the dangers of the drive for lower costs in companies like this.
The current system is doomed to reintroduce the same problems all over again,
regulation and more control will not change this.

~~~
mikeash
The other side of that question is: if other airbag makers weren't able to
patent the better mixture, would they ever have bothered to invent it?

I'm not implying that the answer is necessarily "no," but the mere fact that
patents discouraged the use of a safer mixture in one case doesn't tell the
whole story.

------
WallWextra
The article mentions Honda's efforts to track down owners of cars with
defective airbags. Why can't state motor vehicle registries cooperate in
recalls like this?

~~~
coredog64
I have an 11 year old Honda subject to the recall. I'm the third owner and I
bought it from a dealer with no Honda affiliation. Honda has been bombarding
me with notices, suggesting that the state _has_ been helping.

What I'm more annoyed about is the UX. Honda is getting press puff pieces
published about what an awesome job they're doing up to and including rental
cars for people who are concerned while parts are on backorder. Meanwhile my
local dealership told me that they'd drop me off/pick me up in their shuttle
as long as I wasn't more than 2 miles away.

~~~
AmVess
User experience is going to vary widely because dealerships vary widely.

The dealership where I bought my Honda gave me a loaner while my vehicle was
repaired. I dropped my car off on the way to work, and picked up the loaner.
The work was done by the time I got off work. The whole experience was
painless.

------
LeifCarrotson
> Takada has only $520 million on hand and is worth about $340 million

Does this mean they have $520m in cash, but the stock valve is less than their
bank account?

~~~
aab0
Sounds like it. Take into account the impending fine, all the lawsuits in many
countries, the family control of the firm... Takata at this point could well
be worth nothing at all.

~~~
chiph
They have other product lines (the article mentions their seat belt business),
but my guess would be that the airbag liabilities would vastly exceed the
income & valuation of those.

------
King-Aaron
Very interesting read, and makes me recall back to being a kid and setting off
airbags in the back yard. You could immediately tell the difference between
the older propellant and the newer ones, though I wasn't aware of how
poisonous it was for us.

------
feld
My Subaru dealership can only order 5 airbags per day. I was a couple hundred
deep in the list. They said it takes 4 hours to do one, but Subaru claims 2.

I'm going to be waiting for quite a while.

~~~
post_break
2 hours to pull it into the bay, 45 minutes to contemplate life, 15 minutes to
swap the air bag, and 1 hour to day dream about an FA20 WRX STI. It's
seriously so simple to swap, they are lying.

~~~
feld
my 2005 outback has to have the entire dash removed to do it.

~~~
post_break
Passenger side I assume, that would definitely take a long time.

~~~
feld
Correct!

------
hew
[http://hondaairbaginfo.com/news-updates/statement-by-
america...](http://hondaairbaginfo.com/news-updates/statement-by-american-
honda-regarding-expanded-recall-of-takata-non-desiccated-passenger-front-
airbag-inflators/)

"Automobile models and model years included in the _first stage_ of this
recent expansion of the Takata non-desiccated passenger front inflator recall"

Doesn't make me feel warm and fuzzy as a 2006 Odyssey owner.

~~~
hew
Yep, talking to myself:

[http://www.nhtsa.gov/About+NHTSA/Press+Releases/nhtsa-
expand...](http://www.nhtsa.gov/About+NHTSA/Press+Releases/nhtsa-expands-
accelerates-takata-inflator-recall-05042016)

"The _five recall phases_ are based on prioritization of risk, determined by
the age of the inflators and exposure to high humidity and fluctuating high
temperatures that accelerate the degradation of the chemical propellant."

So I guess I'm a phase 2 or 3 kind of owner. Meanwhile, sitting at the vaunted
10 year marker in a hot 'n humid climate...

~~~
RankingMember
In your situation I'd probably just yank the fuse until the replacement
occurs. On that car it looks like it's in the interior fusebox on the driver's
side, fuse #22, "IG SRS". You won't have any airbags in an accident with it
pulled, but you also won't run the risk of getting the equivalent of a shotgun
blast of metal shards to the face.

------
userbinator
As I understand it, the problem is that the explosive becomes more powerful
over time, _too_ powerful. Here's a wild idea --- how about "pre-aging" the
explosive until it's reached basically its maximum "strength", and then
filling the airbags with a smaller amount to provide the same equivalent force
as before? It could save them even more... and they could spend some of the
savings on making the casings stronger and thus less likely to fragment.

~~~
gvb
It is not the force that changes, it is the rate of gas generation (burn
rate). You need to generate airbag gasses fast enough to inflate before your
face hits the airbag, but slow enough not to tear itself apart (especially the
metal forming the gas generator).

As the ammonium nitrate based gas generator mix ages, becomes less stable in
that it burns faster, generates its gasses faster, and crosses the threshold
between gas generation and explosion (RUD).

Ref:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gas_generator](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gas_generator)

~~~
hga
Does it become less "stable", or just much higher in speed of detonation? I
don't remember reading any accounts of these airbags going off when they
shouldn't have, just bad results once the system triggered them.

~~~
gvb
Stability here is being used in the chemical sense, as in "how fast it
oxidizes".
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chemical_stability](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chemical_stability)

A gas generator (airbag inflater) does not detonate, it generates a large
volume of gas very rapidly but at a designed (predictable) rate - the faulty
airbags are detonating.

Spontaneous ("accidental") deployment would be the ultimate bad instability,
but I don't believe this was a major problem (yet). IIRC, there was one
reference to an "accidental" deployment which could be instability-related or
a fault elsewhere, e.g. in the sensor/trigger circuitry.

The instability that is causing the major problems is causing faster
combustion than designed.

------
tropo
Ammonium nitrate is at least non-toxic. You can sprinkle it on your soup. The
exhaust gases are likewise harmless, and even have enough oxygen to keep you
alive.

Sodium azide is deadly both ways. Unreacted azide is nasty stuff. Sodium makes
lye when it gets in your eyes or lungs, and is also an extreme fire hazard.
There is no oxygen.

------
riffraff
the article mentions 13 deaths of which 10 in the US. This seems a very odd
distribution, can someone explain it?

~~~
hga
I think tmd83 might be on to something (as well as m_mueller), the NHTSA
decided in the ... '70s I think to make the tradeoff to maximally protect
those who don't wear belt.

But environmental conditions might also be a factor, the higher the heat and
humidity, the faster the ammonium nitrate pellets turn into very dangerous
powder. And that's being used to target the limited supply of replacement
parts in the US. How does Japan's population distribution and climate compare
to the US?

~~~
throwaway7767
The (very good, worthy of a read) article deals with this. It states that the
european subsidiary of Takata developed a propellant based on guanidine
nitrate because of concerns with the safety of ammonium nitrate, and have used
that since 2008. It also states that their Chinese subsidiary used that one.

------
tomjen3
Would it be better to deactivate my airbag until it can be replaced, or run
the risk of having this issue pop out, assuming my car is affected?

If it is worth anything I drive like a maniac.

~~~
bunkat
Step 1 would be to stop driving like a maniac. Otherwise since there have been
13 deaths for millions of air bags, probably still safer to leave it
activated. The chance of serious injury from your head striking the steering
column is still significantly larger than shrapnel from a defective air bag
injuring you.

------
BooneJS
My 2007 CR-V is affected. Since I live in the northern part of the US, my
airbag isn't a priority as they're doing southern states first.

~~~
AmVess
I live in one of the driest states, and my air bags were swapped a year ago.

------
princeb
> Torture the data until it confesses

such a sad and tragic misunderstanding of the meaning of this phrase.

------
CamperBob2
One of the early criticisms of air bags in passenger cars was that they were
said to protect only people who aren't belted in, with nothing but
potentially-injurious effects for anyone who is.

Does anyone know if that is still (or was ever) true?

~~~
dmckeon
I believe that was never true for vehicle occupants in the typical ranges of
height, weight, and age.

Failure to use seat-belts with earlier generations of airbags tended to lead
to unbelted occupants "submarining" under the opening airbag, leading to lower
body injuries, although the "submarining" jargon now appears to be applied to
situation where a lap belt is wore higher on the abdomen rather than low on
the hip bones, with the higher position tending to lead to abdominal injuries.

With newer generations of airbag design and other tech such as active seat
belt pre-tensioners, I would be extremely surprised to find any
recommendations against wearing seatbelts, except perhaps for the 1 in 100,000
cases - near-term pregnant women or persons with recent abdominal surgery.

Here's a detailed review (from the mid-90's)
[http://www.nhtsa.gov/Laws+&+Regulations/Air+Bags/Third+Repor...](http://www.nhtsa.gov/Laws+&+Regulations/Air+Bags/Third+Report+to+Congress+Effectiveness+of+Occupant+Protection+Systems+and+Their+Use)

and more recent reports
[http://www.nhtsa.gov/Driving+Safety/Research+&+Evaluation/Be...](http://www.nhtsa.gov/Driving+Safety/Research+&+Evaluation/Behavioral+Reports:+Seat+Belts)

[http://www.cdc.gov/motorvehiclesafety/seatbelts/facts.html](http://www.cdc.gov/motorvehiclesafety/seatbelts/facts.html)

