
Udacity to offer entire CS curriculum, certifications to obtain a degree online - dhawalhs
https://plus.google.com/b/107809899089663019971/107809899089663019971/posts/ipuBzuy5o9h
======
keiferski
A good portion of a degree's value is in its branding/prestige value. It's not
just about the knowledge, it's about the overall reputation of an educational
institution. The material at Penn State is 99% the same as MIT's. If this
weren't the case, MIT and Stanford would have lost their luster to public
schools decades ago.

Unfortunately I don't see a degree from a website named "Udacity" garnering
anywhere near the level of respect that a traditional university has. Step 1
to bringing down the university system: pick a decent name.

~~~
noahc
Udacity isn't a brand yet. Someday something like it or it will be. Then it
won't matter.

I respect people who are resourceful and get stuff done. If you choose to go
to college and wait out the great recession, I'll look down on you no matter
if you went to MIT or Stanford. If you went to college for business or
technology and you didn't produce anything during your time at college, you'll
have a hard time convincing me to hire you.

It's only a matter of time before the rest of the world catches up to my way
of thinking.

~~~
lightcatcher
"I respect people who are resourceful and get stuff done."

Does getting a college degree not count as getting stuff done? Would you
rather someone list every single problem set, proof, project, etc that they
have done? I can vouch that a degree from some schools requires much more
work/time/resourcefulness than making a couple of cool projects on github.

Also, as a technologist, my ultimate goal is to push things forward. Think
SpaceX, Google, Intel, or even something smaller like Lytro or projects like
Google's autonomous vehicles. These technology beneath these things (cheap
manufacturing, PageRank, integrated circuits, etc) isn't invented by the
people who make CRUD webapps; its made by those who master a field and have
some insight to vastly improve their domain. That's what changes things.

Note, mentioning Apple or Facebook might seem like a counterpoint to my
statement. I would argue Apple has pushed design forward in the same way Intel
has pushed the semiconductor business forward. However, Facebook seemed to
have no extraordinary technology at its core, but just capitalized on a hole
in the market so much that it actually has changed how society functions.

Also, I'm not at all discounting the hustlers who get stuff done, by I think
to really change things, one must be a hustler (or know one) and also have
extraordinary technology.

~~~
noahc
I don't doubt that a degree can take much more time or work. In fact I'm sure
it probably does, which is all the more reason to NOT go that route.

That's awesome that you want to push things forward. We need that, but what
I'm saying is that nothing is going to help you except down right
resourcefulness. You're going to have to go deep and master something to do
that, sure.

Five years ago, I think you would have been right. The resources to get
started weren't there. Today it's all changed and now resourcefulness gets you
so much further than it ever has before.

------
WildUtah
Does anyone have a pointer to ow this company pans to deal with the Blackboard
patents? A few years ago Blackboard patented various aspects of online
classroom applications. They offer a free license to not-for-profit projects
but it's unclear Udacity intends to remain entirely not-for-profit.

~~~
tylermenezes
From what I understand Blackboard lost almost every legal case they filed with
those patents, so as long as they have enough money to get through a lawsuit,
they should be fine.

~~~
hack_edu
However, they still sue everyone they possibly can in order to still lock down
their market. For a few years now, the barrier for hasn't been the patents but
for the cost of standing up to them in court.

~~~
simonbrown
Isn't that illegal (IANAL)?

<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frivolous_litigation>

~~~
shimon
Theoretically this is illegal. In practice, it's hard to draw a sharp line
between "plaintiff actually feels his patent should apply here" and "plaintiff
doesn't honestly believe his patent applies, but is using the courts as an
anticompetitive measure".

The US patent litigation process is a horrendously bloated system that favors
lawyers and companies with deep pockets, and makes it possible for a
sufficiently rich and motivated company to bankrupt an upstart competitor.

------
dhawalhs
List of courses Udacity (www.udacity.com) is expected to offer in 2012:

1\. Theory Of Computation

2\. Operating Systems

3\. Computer Networks

4\. Distributed Systems

5\. Computer Security

6\. Algorithms And Data Structures

7\. Software Engineering Practices

8\. Building Web Applications

Courses that have been confirmed and starting on 20th Feb:

1\. CS 101: Building a Search Engine

2\. CS 373: Programming a Robotic Car

~~~
tyrelb
It would be awesome if they could compare (or map) this course list to what
would be typically taught by a University-level Computer Science program...

I'm not interested in earning a degree/certification, rather I'd want to take
these courses for general interest only.

I'm interested in understanding the depth and breadth of each course, vs. just
going off the heading. If I can understand the value of each Udacity course as
compared to the standard (eg: another University's program), I'm more likely
to commit / buy into the whole Udacity approach.

i.e. "At Stanford, a typical 4/5-year degree has these X topics /
competencies... and these 8 coures meet 50% of these competencies."

Without understanding the value of each course as it relates to, say, another
University program or competency map, I have a hard time understanding the
value of Udacity.

This probably sounds confusing, so if there's anyone from Udacity that wants
to chat I'm more than open to. I think what Udacity is trying to achieve is
great.

~~~
ams6110
Those course titles do sound very typical for an undergrad CS program, if a
bit heavy on the practical subjects.

------
tybris
This sounds bold, but I think the success of Khan academy is simply due the
fact that Sal Khan is a brilliant man, and so is Sebastian Thrun. The best
teachers provide the best teaching experience, and the Internet allows
everyone to have this experience.

~~~
pjscott
The internet also allows everyone to avoid the crappy teachers, which is
hugely valuable.

------
rgbrgb
I really wish they had chosen a name for their university that was not so Web
2.0. It makes it unclear to me whether this is a startup or an educational
institution.

~~~
DrCatbox
Yes, the name is very important, just look at the name google, that doesnt
sound so Web 2.0 at all, I mean, who can even pronounce that?

~~~
burgerbrain
Well Google is not a school, is it?

------
danielharan
Is it far fetched to think of traditional universities meeting the same fate
as Blockbuster?

How far can this go?

~~~
tikhonj
It is.

A university offers a lot more than just classes--one of the primary functions
is just to bring together lots of smart people. Being able to talk to both
other students and professors face to face is important; and having plenty of
other like-minded students around is great for more than just classes.

On top of this, universities also offer research. Being able to work on
something exciting while you're there is important. And research benefits both
from having a high concentration of smart people and having the appropriate
facilities. (It also sometimes benefits from having a university full of
guinea pigs :).)

Also, while most CS classes are easy to move online, this does not hold for
other technical subjects which need equipment and labs. An online-only EE or
Bio or Physics class cannot reproduce the hands-on experience which is very
important to understanding the material well.

~~~
lightcatcher
I think its important to distinguish that a lot of EE, biology, or physics
classes could moved into an online format because not all of these classes are
labs. The demos would be easy to replicate just as part of the videos of the
lectures.

~~~
fl3tch
I'm a graduate student in the sciences and every biology, chemistry and
physics class that I took had a lab, except the evolution class. You could put
the lectures online, but universities will never be completely replaced, as
long as people want to learn science or do research.

~~~
moonchrome
>as long as people want to learn science or do research

Maybe this will create a large demand for amateur level/mass producable/cheap
lab equipment and that would eventually lead to a situation like PC vs Server
where even top notch servers are ~ comodity hardware on steroids. This would
lower the barrier for innovation significantly.

------
gatlin
I've said this elsewhere. Good lectures, even good exams, must be matched with
good projects and discussions with peers (refereed by a deeply knowledgeable
teacher). I wonder if a cottage industry of local study groups will form
around these lecture sources. Perhaps Udacity could even spearhead the
creation of these and offer some kind of certification to vouch for the local
teacher.

Then you have the best of both worlds: an internally consistent curriculum
with good lectures and digested information paired with one-on-one instruction
and project development / discussion which will serve individual students in
their own unique ways.

~~~
mwmnj
would be great to start seeing "Udacity meetups" or something

~~~
gatlin
I think community based schools will start cropping up. They'll align with
some subset of online course material and there might be a local teacher to
help coordinate but otherwise, it's the students themselves helping each
other. The local tangible presence would not only allow for that interaction /
project based element I'm so fond of, but also to help pool resources for
equipment.

If we're going into this brave new world of private, decentralized education
we may as well do it in such a fashion that your own financial status doesn't
prevent you from participating.

------
magoghm
My 16 year old son took the online Introduction to AI class and liked it very
much. I told him that Udacity plans to offer an entire online CS curriculum &
certification, and he's now very interested in evaluating if he wants to get
an Udacity degree instead of going to a more traditional university. I guess I
will have to do some serious thinking before I decide if I should encourage
him to get an Udacity education or a more traditional education.

~~~
thomaslangston
I'd encourage him to get both.

At least in the short term an Udacity education is going to be considered the
same as self-taught. A traditional education however is going to open up other
opportunities that the self-taught cannot easily obtain. As long as Udacity is
free however, there's no reason to not pack in some extra classes if he has
the time.

~~~
magoghm
I have a traditional education, BS in CS & EE, and it seems to me that it
never has been relevant in my professional life. I'm not talking about what I
learned in college, that part has been useful. I'm talking about the
certification aspect. I finished college 29 years ago, and in all that time
I've never had the issue of showing some kind of certificate come up when
being offered a job. Maybe I'm an exception and I'm underestimating the
certification aspect, but what I'm more concerned about right now is that he
wouldn't experience meeting many different kinds of people if he stays at home
to study instead of going to some campus, and that doesn't feel right to me.

I'm also concerned about how complete is the curriculum at Udacity going to
be. I'm sure all the CS classes are going to be pretty good, but what about
other subjects like math & physics? I wonder what they are going to do about
that and who's going to teach them.

~~~
jacalata
As someone who moved to the US for work, one important benefit of 'the
certification aspect' is that it'll open up travel opportunities he'd
otherwise struggle with: most work visas require a degree, sometimes 'or
equivalent experience' but that's harder to demonstrate. If he actually wants
to immigrate somewhere the degree may also provide points for that.

~~~
magoghm
That's a good point. Thank you for telling me about that.

------
ashconnor
How will they combat cheating? I mean if it's all done remotely then what is
stopping somebody completing the degree for somebody else?

~~~
learc83
There are plenty of online schools already. They usually either have you take
tests at a local third party testing center, or they watch you through your
webcam while you take tests.

Additionally there's plenty of cheating going on in traditional universities.
I've even heard of people being paid to take entire classes for other people.

~~~
derektc
Taking the big tests at third party testing centers should be the way to go.

However, I would like to point out that an university does not merely comprise
of lectures. The research projects, internships and even the interaction with
peers cannot be recreated online. Traditional universities still have an edge
over this.

~~~
learc83
If enrollment was high enough, local meetups for some classes would go a long
way towards solving this problem.

What I would like to see eventually happen is for learning and credentialing
to separate.

I'd like to see a university that was more freeform. What if instead of just
offering 4 year degrees, you could take a 6 month AI program, or a 3 month
probability and stats course.

------
IvoDankolov
I've received one of these emails as well. Almost makes you wonder how much
would offline university degrees be worth in a few years.

Objectively, this is not a new idea. We have been talking about
revolutionizing education for years - and free online education is pretty much
the ideal. There is even enough material about most scientific fields and
areas of study (some are more open than others, though) to become an expert.

So what is the problem? Becoming an expert with enough authority for people to
actually listen to you. Easy enough to do it on your own in programming or
entrepreneurship you might say. Not so easy in medicine or biochemistry
(though I will admit I have no first-hand experience).

In that regard, certifications are a significant next step, provided that they
get wide enough acknowledgement. That is the next battlefront, I think -
convincing industries, governments and academia that online education is the
way to go.

~~~
splatterdash
I think this will highlight differences among fields of education (?).

Programming is a very pragmatic field. Your ability to code is at its core
judged by whether you can program something that works. Don't have a formal
education? Whip up several interesting programs / websites on your own, and
less people will care about your degree. In addition to that, it's becoming
increasingly easy to learn the subject on your own.

Not many other fields are like that. Medicine for example. Sure, you can learn
the names of the bones in your body, understand the use cases of different
drugs in the market, but can you diagnose a patient? To learn that, you need
access to training in real hospitals which are only given to students enrolled
offline.

Same thing with biochemistry (needs access to labs and direct mentorship), law
(access to courtrooms? or certification from proper boards). Many of these
other disciplines are based on initial trust. It takes time for a biochemist
or a lawyer until their work results in something. Having an actual (offline)
degree places some kind of 'proxy' for the work result, until they actually
appear.

I'm not that certain that they can be replaced / revolutionized by online
classes. I'm all for revolutionizing education, but I don't think this new
approach is able to revolutionize all fields of education.

~~~
ippisl
> but can you diagnose a patient? To learn that, you need access to training
> in real hospitals which are only given to students enrolled offline.

There are medical simulation tools that teach you to diagnose patients, train
you in surgery , etc.They seem to be very effective as a training tool. One
can imagine a certification process that tests you using this tool, and
verifies that you have good diagnosis and prescription skills , and maybe part
of the treatment skills.

That might be a good enough basis to admit you on a trial basis as a resident,
or to a pre-residency short program.

Maybe in a similar fashion, one could build a simulation software that can
train biochemists affordably ,and test to see you're qualified enough to work
in a lab.

~~~
splatterdash
Call me a skeptic, but I don't think those simulations can ever replace real-
life situations.

The human body is bewilderingly complex that it it still a subject of
thousands of researches worldwide. How can you simulate something you don't
completely understand?

Plus, in the case of medicine, one needs to know also how to interact with a
patient. Is he/she telling the truth about his/her symptoms? Is there
something the person's not telling that might affect your diagnosis? What
about educating the patient about the disease?

These are real day-to-day situations that can never be simulated.

~~~
ippisl
How can you simulate something you don't completely understand?

Many medical diseases are reasonably understood, at least at a level we know
to associate symptoms with tests and treatment processes.And there is real
simulation software that being used in teaching med students, so it must have
passed some quality assurance.

Yes , simulations might have a hard time replacing human interactions, but as
far as i understand , you learn patient interaction in an environment external
to the university(a hospital). There's no reason well educated online students
won't have access to those experiences.

------
Vivtek
Certifications for free? I mean, that's certainly what it sounds like. Talk
about disruption!

~~~
waterlesscloud
There's nothing that says the certification will be free...

~~~
swalsh
It doesn't have to be free... it just has to cost less than 20k a year to be
disruptive. This has the potential to be very disruptive.

One of the things that excites me the most is not only the potential to
eliminate the massive load of debt that your average graduate inherits when
they're finished with college, but it also lowers the barrier of entry to
classes. So a person who already has graduated can study a cross-discipline a
lot easier. I think the amount of people have an expertise in very different
areas is going to increase. A lot of potential opens up if/when that becomes a
trend.

~~~
leak
State universities if you're a resident of the state don't cost $20k/yr. Mine
cost me $4k/yr.

~~~
geogra4
Which state are you in? Even the cheapest state schools here in PA are closer
to 4k/semester.

[http://www.sru.edu/financeandadministrativeaffairs/studentac...](http://www.sru.edu/financeandadministrativeaffairs/studentaccounts/tuition/Pages/UndergradIn-
StateFees.aspx)

~~~
leak
California. Attended California State Universities. They have gone up a bit
since I graduated about 7 years ago but not that much.

Average for all CSU's - $5,285

Link:
[http://www.calstate.edu/budget/fybudget/2011-2012/documentat...](http://www.calstate.edu/budget/fybudget/2011-2012/documentation/14-mandatory-
fees-table.shtml) Link 2: <http://www.calstate.edu/sas/costofattendance/>

------
itmag
As someone who is extremely interested in getting started in the e-learning
space, what are some ways to offer credentials to people via your e-learning
company?

I imagine there is a host of options, ranging from formal university credits
(which would require teaming up with some educational institution) to just an
email saying "congrats, you done it bro". I'd imagine the interesting options
lie somewhere in the middle?

------
ilaksh
How do they make money if the courses are free?

------
RuchitGarg
Also, checkout <http://www.9slides.com>, which is not an university
experiment.

