
Ask HN: Should I part ways with my cofounder? - pinouchon
About one year ago, I decided to start a startup with my brother. We moved into a cheap city and flatshare with my brother and another friend. The other friend is working on his own startup on his own, no issue there.
My problem is that my brother has a very hard time motivating himself working and he is not very motivated about ML&#x2F;AI&#x2F;DL either. A few numbers: he works  ~1h&#x2F;day on bad days, and 3-4h&#x2F;days on good days. And we barely talk about ML&#x2F;AI, maybe once per week. (With the other guy, I talk about these topics constantly).<p>We discussed the issue, it looks like he has an issue with chronic fatigue (in his old work, he had a hard time keeping his focus on his work), so fatigue may be unrelated to work. At the same time, he plays videogames for much longer than that, so I suspect <i>what</i> he is doing impacts motivation.<p>I tried to find ways with him to motivate himself, but I see no improvement. We talked about scaling equity with time spend working. I am thinking about asking him to track time more precisely with an app such as rescue time, but I feel this is a stupid thing to ask to a co-founder and the core issue lies deeper.<p>I have no issue whatsoever working on my own on this project (I wrote the overwhelming majority of the code myself), but I feel bad for him if I push him aside, although it might be a good thing for him because it would force him to take responsibility of his situation.<p>Thoughts?
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FBISurveillance
In my experience you should avoid doing business with your friends and family.
Countless times have I seen relationships get destroyed when money are
involved. Heck, I've been there myself more than once ("this time it'll be ok"
I thought).

If you start asking yourself this question you should probably part ways. If
you're going to hold that to yourself, chances are you'll start hating him
slowly like boiling a frog.

~~~
pinouchon
The situation has been slowly been getting worse and worse (it has a boiling
frog aspect to it). And I think that's why I put up with it for a long time.
But if I compare what I had in mind (startup mode in which we spending the
vast majority of our time working) when we started working and the current
situation, it's night and day.

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throwaway1500
Thinking about this issue from another direction. You mentioned he had an
issue with chronic fatigue. What if that is actually the main factor for him
not being able to focus on work. The psychological factor of not being able to
deliver on promises especially since you are family could drive him down a
spiral even more. Feeling bad for playing games, then playing even more games
out of frustration, because it kills thinking time. I met countless people
with similar issues over the years and many of them could resolve their
problems changing their habits and diet to a healthier one, making sure they
get all the necessary vitamins (especially B12,D if they happen to be
vegetarian/vegan), and of course doing physical excercise. Just doing low sets
of simple Push-ups, Squats, short running, ... 5 days a week can help
tremendously in the first few weeks with mental stability.

If the fatigue is not his problem, it could be he is just not believing in the
success of your mission/product anymore and feels bad about, does not know how
to approach you about it.

If he is still believing. Try to attack the health issue, motivation first.

You should definitly have a serious talk with him what you both can do to
improve the situation.

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nao360
I used to be like your brother; possibly worse. Overweight; unable to find
motivation; waiting for things to fall into my lap; waiting for things to be
'perfect' before starting anything; hiding behind video games and blaming
others for problems I created entirely. There's a lot of us out there, and
your co-founder sounds like one too.

Don't be cruel or unkind, but be honest. Tell him to move aside, and go on
without him for both your sakes. If you stay as you are you will both rot. If
he can overcome his problems (with time - you can't force it on someone who
doesn't want it) he will understand what you did, and why. If not, that's just
too bad. I would bet, however, that your brother will _eventually_ get tired
of being tired, and pick himself up. When that time comes, you'll be there to
reach back and pull him forward.

Best of luck.

~~~
kejaed
Did you do anything in particular to break out of the cycle?

~~~
nao360
TL;DR - sleep properly, eat properly, exercise regularly, and learn to live in
the present.

I learned to calm my mind by reading, and following the exercises in a series
of books called, 'The power of now', and 'Practicing the power of now' by
Eckhart Tolle. Some people have difficulty in picking up these books,
particularly 'The power of now', because it was featured on Opera. Or because
it's a'new age' title. If this is you (dear reader): get over yourself, and
this book will change your life. It's a tiny book that you can read, cover to
cover, in a few hours. It's available in many languages, and also as an audio
book.

These books will teach you how to calm your mind by learning to be 'present'.
You'll learn how to observe your mind -- how to accept the thoughts,
obsessions, preoccupations about things that happened in the past; how to
accept the worry, dread, and anxiety about things that may happen in the
future. Past and future are important, but none truly affect you like the
present. Right now, right this very moment as you read what I've typed, you
are actually free of these burdens.

Learning to be present was foundational to everything else I've done to break
out of the cycle. I became self-aware in a way that made it impossible to
reconcile the various negative character traits I had developed from early
adolescence. I stopped procrastinating not because I developed some super-
human will power or laser-like focus, but because I learned to spot the moment
my mind wandered away from the task at hand. I stopped waiting for things to
be 'perfect' before starting something because, in the present, nothing is
perfect or imperfect -- it just _is_ what it _is_ and that's that. I stopped
waiting for things to fall into my lap (to get lucky) because, for the first
time that I can remember, things started happening because I made them happen.

We'll call this Phase 1, from about 2012 to 2016. The problem is that over
time I became complacent. I got used to the new 'normal'. I started using
'being present' as a band-aid, a life-hack that I could apply whenever I
noticed I was going back to my old ways. I was also increasingly feeling tired
and lacking mental and physical stamina; finding it difficult to stay sharp
and focused in meetings, particularly in the afternoon. It got to the point
where all those old problems -- procrastination, depression, anxiety -- were
becoming more and more difficult to manage simply by being present. The
problem: I was overweight, and likely suffering the effects of early type 2
diabetes; the effects of drinking soda with every meal, eating four or five
meals a day, and limiting my physical exertions to getting on and off the bus
to work.

This is when I discovered intermittent fasting, the _Keto_ diet and regular
exercise.

Phase 2, from about 2016 to the present. I bought a bicycle and started
cycling to and from work (12 miles round trip). I stopped eating breakfast and
lunch. I stopped drinking soda, and eating sweets. I reduced my carb intake to
5g a day. Within about a week, I had lost 3% weight. In the first month, I
lost 8%. After three months, I was 15% lighter. I started sleeping better -- a
LOT better -- and waking up effortlessly in the morning. I had never been a
'morning person', and used to set four or five alarms (and a dozen snoozes);
now I don't even set an alarm. I can't help waking up early and feeling
completely refreshed! I started wearing clothes that fit well -- this is an
underrated, AMAZING feeling! At work, I stopped feeling tired at all; in fact,
I was (and still am, almost to the annoyance of my colleagues) sharp and
focused throughout the day.

> Did I do anything in particular to break out of the cycle?

If you're looking to begin, I would start all of the above at the same time.
It's going to take a few months to really get going, but you'll feel the
benefits almost immediately (certainly within the first week). After about a
year, you will hardly recognise the person you used to be!

Good luck, and godspeed.

~~~
kejaed
Thanks a lot for this, appreciate it.

~~~
nao360
*Above: Opera = Oprah

I wish I'd taken more time to write the response in a way that's easier to
read; you are most welcome. If it's not working for you, or you need
inspiration, or you want to share notes do feel free to drop me an email at
nao-at-nao360.com. I have all the time in the world for people that want to be
happy, and are willing to put in the work.

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aurizon
Sadly, he would rather play games than work on your common future. This is
like swimming with a 150 pound toad on your back who also eats your food, a
good job if you can get it... Analyze this as if you were speaking with a
friend who had this exact problem - what would you tell him to do? From
another point of view. you are creating a fail mode system for him to operate
in. He has no success mode, apart from that of a tapeworm, just keep on
suckin' on little bro, when he is sucked dry, find another host.

~~~
pinouchon
I still get the feeling that he has no bad intensions of "free-riding", just
that he tries but cannot deliver. That's why I'm willing to give him a chance.

I agree with the "fail mode system" though

~~~
aurizon
Try setting him tasks he must achieve, or no supper?

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davismwfl
I see the comments from others about working with family or friends being bad.
I have done both more than once, and I grew up in a family that was
entrepreneurial and supported us through different businesses. Can working
with family be hard? Yep. Is it different then working with a stranger? Nope.

Whether you work with family, friends or strangers it is a relationship and so
you have to choose wisely who you go into business with. Your brother sounds
as though he was lacking motivation before you guys started. My 2 cents is he
is more likely depressed than suffering from chronic fatigue, only he really
knows right now but either way means he should seek some professional
assistance.

In your case, to be direct, you probably picked poorly in this case, not
because he is your brother, but because his work focus was poor prior.
Continuing to accept it only makes the situation harder, so it does have to be
addressed sooner rather than later, which sounds like you are doing.

In my experience and opinion, you need to be direct with him, not
confrontational/argumentative but direct. And you need to say that you don't
want to continue with him as a co-founder if he can't find the motivation to
make things successful. And frankly, ask him if he really wants to be the
reason you suffer. No you aren't laying a guilt trip on him because you are
prepared to move forward, asking him if he wants to see you fail or the
company fail gives him the opportunity to view his actions differently.

The key is you have to make a decision soon. Either you are going to accept
him and try to help him through this while he is part of the business, or you
cut your business ties and move forward but still help him through this
personally to what degree you can. Be clear with this that it is cutting the
business ties and nothing else. Make extra efforts for awhile to continue the
relationship outside of the business and include him in activities so he feels
that not just hears comments. This is the same way you would handle a friend
you cut as a co-founder if you value the relationship, which is why I see no
difference between friend and family in this case. But you have to make a
decision and not blame him for it, it is just facts of the business and move
forward. If you spend your time blaming him or delaying the decision you will
resent him more everyday and this will destroy the relationship, but if you do
that it is your fault not his.

~~~
pinouchon
Very informative, thanks. I feel like I need to both cut my losses short as a
co-founder and be supportive as a brother, which is a delicate thing to do.

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the-dude
Friction very early on + family member.

Cut your losses before stuff gets more complicated, consider teaming up with
the other guy.

~~~
pinouchon
The other guy has his own project and he is kicking ass (good coder, works a
lot, interested in roughly the same topics as I am). So I doubt he would
switch from his project to mine, although I thought he may when we started
flatsharing. I think this is a possibility if my project takes off and his
flattens out, but I'm not counting on that. The most likely scenario is that I
continue on my own for a while.

~~~
the-dude
To both of you : solo-founding is thrice as hard. You could still team up and
work on both projects. Of course, this requires serious commitment regarding
the IP ( you should both become co-owners of each others IP ).

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deeteecee
makes sense to me. best of luck to you.

