
Windows 8 Arrives - dragonquest
http://www.microsoft.com/en-us/news/Press/2012/Oct12/10-25Windows8GAPR.aspx
======
luma
I've been running Windows 8 since they release the RTM version to TechNet
subscribers on my primary laptop (about a month now).

Short version - outside of Metro it's basically Win7SP3 and it works great.
Metro is every bit the usability disaster that people have claimed when not
running on a touch screen.

The good news is that you really don't have to interface much with Metro at
all. It replaces the start menu, but it does so in a manner that works with
how I'm used to dealing with the start menu already. That is, I already just
hit the Win key and then start typing until the thing I want pops up, and that
behavior has carried over.

So, yeah Metro is awful for all the reasons everybody has already laid out.
Despite that, Win 8 has been a solid performer and I won't be loading Win7
back on this system.

My primary home system will continue to run Win7 until I am comfortable that
my production applications will all run successfully (and by that, I mean
"games").

~~~
nonane
Plug: If you're running Windows 8 Pro and have an iPad you can try out the Win
8 Metro's multitouch features using my app
([http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HWUEAx4dqP4&hd=1](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HWUEAx4dqP4&hd=1)).
Send me an email: support at jumpdesktop.com and I'll send you a free coupon.

~~~
moconnor
I've used Jump for the past year; it's an excellent remote desktop client.

~~~
nonane
Thank you! Appreciate it :-)

------
jerednel
I happen to think that Windows 8 is a welcome refresh. At first, I was
confused by the dashboard but I am finding it easier and easier to navigate
around.

For instance, going to the traditional desktop is as easy as clicking the
"Desktop" tile. And opening a new tab in the metro-IE was a bit confusing but
after figuring out that double finger pressing the touchpad brings up the tab
list and url bar it has become easier.

I also like the new native mail client and calendar apps.

For the record, I am running Windows 8 on a 2011 macbook air via bootcamp and
it runs perfect. Guild Wars 2 also gets about 10 fps more than it does on the
mac client for what its worth and makes it actually playable on an Air :)

Following this tangent a bit more, I feel like if the drivers were updated
enough to support 3 finger left and right gestures to wipe between the
different screens I wouldn't revisit OSX for a while.

Windows 8 is a fun operating system.

~~~
TazeTSchnitzel
Perhaps it will wear off, but Windows 8 feels quite refreshing compared to
other interfaces.

------
w1ntermute
_The Verge_ gave it a pretty solid score (8.8/10):
<http://www.theverge.com/2012/10/23/3537710/windows-8-review>

The Surface, not so much (7.0):
[http://www.theverge.com/2012/10/23/3540550/microsoft-
surface...](http://www.theverge.com/2012/10/23/3540550/microsoft-surface-
review)

~~~
clauretano
i.e. Windows 8 got a good score, Windows RT not so much.

~~~
MBCook
I'd also imagine that the Surface's 7.0 is because of the hardware. Every
review I've read has said that the hardware is pretty fantastic and the
keyboard covers work surprisingly well.

It's only Windows RT that people seem to be complaining about.

------
at-fates-hands
I see this as a pretty big leap. Remember, this OS isn't about forgetting
about Windows or forcing change on anybody. It's about creating an ecosystem
similar to what Apple has. They want you to use their apps (Office, Bing
Search, X-box Games) across all of their products (Desktop, Surface, Windows 8
phone) and make it so you can access the same info anywhere you are.

I'm surprised more people haven't picked up on this rather bold move.

~~~
tsotha
It's not that people haven't picked up on this "bold move". It's that they
want an operating system, not an ecosystem.

------
rossjudson
I've gotten to look Metro more than I did at first. I still don't stay in it;
I mostly just head to the desktop and use the newer, flatter Windows 7 I find
there.

The elephant in the room for me is the horizontal scrolling. I'm sitting there
spinning the mouse wheel vertically, and what's on the screen is moving
horizontally. That's a total disconnect.

Why this emphasis on horizontal scrolling? I don't see how the horizontally
scrolling items are in any way easier to use than a vertically scrolling set
of items. Seems like different, for difference's sake.

~~~
nlawalker
Horizontal scrolling is easier and more natural if you're using touch. The
wide screen gives you lots of room to sweep your finger back and forth and
"throw" the content if you want to. Horizontal touch scrolling also evokes the
feeling of paging through a book.

Of course, if you're not using touch, then yes, I agree it feels a bit weird
at first. It doesn't take that long to get used to though.

~~~
sliverstorm
Besides, it kind of makes sense now that everything is widescreen.

------
Permit
Anyone whose University participates in Microsoft DreamSpark will be happy to
know it's available for free there already.

~~~
sturmeh
Free on DreamSpark or MSDNAA? I can't seem to find it on Dreamspark...

~~~
Galactor963
MSDNAA (which has been replaced by "DreamSpark Premium")

------
engtech
Windows 8 Pro upgrade for $39 dollars ($15 for newer PCs). [1]

That's... reasonable.

I might consider buying a copy of Windows 8 Pro at that price and then waiting
until it hits SP1 to install it.

I might even spin up a VM to try it out.

I like that the $39 upgrade applies to anyone with Windows XP, Windows Vista
or Windows 7. I think they're realizing that a lot of people don't upgrade OS
because they don't want to upgrade their hardware.

(like my old Win XP laptop that I use as a VNC terminal to other machines).

The only reason why I wouldn't want to jump in with two feet is that I have a
general dislike for the Xbox dashboard and I suspect that Metro would be very
similar to it.

[1] You can use this tool to check that you have a genuine version of Windows
<http://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?linkid=52012>

[2] Windows OEM licenses are transferable if it included the hardware

[http://www.microsoft.com/oem/en/licensing/sblicensing/pages/...](http://www.microsoft.com/oem/en/licensing/sblicensing/pages/licensing_faq.aspx#fbid=9yMpxLPoxsV?faq2)

[3] Windows retail licenses are transferable

[http://www.microsoft.com/About/Legal/EN/US/IntellectualPrope...](http://www.microsoft.com/About/Legal/EN/US/IntellectualProperty/UseTerms/Default.aspx)

Here's a direct link to a PDF for Windows 7 Home Basic in English

[http://download.microsoft.com/Documents/UseTerms/Windows%207...](http://download.microsoft.com/Documents/UseTerms/Windows%207_Home%20Basic_English_266c7e01-34d6-4b9a-8d43-6cc2d1d39056.pdf)

[4] Windows Anytime Upgrades are pretty much considered to be OEM

    
    
       17. TRANSFER TO ANOTHER COMPUTER. (retail)
       a. Software Other than Windows Anytime Upgrade. You may transfer the software and install it on another computer for your use. That computer becomes the licensed computer. You may not do so to share this license between computers.
       b. Windows Anytime Upgrade Software. You may transfer the software and install it on another computer, but only if the license terms of the software you upgraded from allows you to do so. That computer becomes the licensed computer. You may not do so to share this license between computers.
       18. TRANSFER TO A THIRD PARTY. (retail)
       a. Software Other Than Windows Anytime Upgrade. The first user of the software may make a one time transfer of the software and this agreement, by transferring the original media, the certificate of authenticity, the product key and the proof of purchase directly to a third party. The first user must remove the software before transferring it separately from the computer. The first user may not retain any copies of the software.
       b. Windows Anytime Upgrade Software. You may transfer the software directly to a third party only with the licensed computer. You may not keep any copies of the software or any earlier edition.
       c. Other Requirements. Before any permitted transfer, the other

~~~
ajross
That's the upgrade price. AFAICT they haven't announced pricing for an
installable new copy of the OS.

~~~
ConstantineXVI
Newegg is listing OEM pricing at $100[0], and Pro for $140[1]. FWIW, this
matches Win7 OEM pricing.

(It appears "retail" copies have been given the axe entirely, which isn't
particularly surprising.)

[0]
[http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16832416...](http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16832416550)

[1]
[http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16832416...](http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16832416552)

~~~
jiggy2011
No Retail copies? So to get a copy you have to buy a new PC or have an
existing Windows OS?

~~~
ajross
Pretty sure the pure "retail" version of the OS disappeared with XP->Vista.
Everything on a store shelf today is an upgrade copy, and the version sold
from people like Newegg (which is what I meant) is titled something like "OEM
version for system builders".

~~~
jiggy2011
I have a Windows 7 Retail copy sitting on my shelf.

~~~
jasomill
Me too. And unlike the new "personal use license", it doesn't include new,
ambiguous changes to the license text, like the prohibition against "licensing
more than five copies of the software for commercial use in total" (concurrent
or consecutive?) and the restriction that it may only be used on computers
that "you are building for your own use". Given any reasonable interpretation
of "build", this should exclude, say, a MacBook, and it leaves open questions
about computers that _I own_ but am _"building" for the use of others_.

I suspect the real reason for this train wreck of an EULA is that "no retail
copies" is yet another stick to force volume license users to purchase
software assurance, as it _does_ mean that the only current-version Windows
base license available to companies with more than five seats is the
restricted, nontransferable OEM EULA. Or, oddly enough in the case of most
volume license agreements, Mac OS X.

------
jiggy2011
Well looks like this is judgement day for MS then.

The price is much lower than for previous versions of Windows, this makes me
suspect that we should start expecting new releases of Windows much more
frequently, similar to how Apple does it.

With the radical changes going on in Windows 8 it wouldn't surprise me to see
a tweaked and improved Windows 9 in less than 2 years.

~~~
MBCook
I hope so. They clearly learned that the delay between XP and Vista was way
too long. I think they learned that the shorter delay between Vista and
Windows 7 was beneficial too.

Having the shorter releases seems to work very well, at least it has in the OS
X world. The ability to release new features and get them in the hands of
users faster than once every 3 or 5 years is a big improvement.

It's also nice to see them drop the price. At the old $99 or $129 level, an OS
upgrade really needs to justify it's existence. Many people would just hold
out and buy a new computer (especially if you only paid $400 or $500 for it).
At $40 it's much easier to get people to update without waiting for a hardware
refresh.

------
learc83
Metro reminds me of the Acer Computer Explorer (I think that was the name, I
was 11 at the time) that was installed on my very first computer (windows 95).

The computer booted up to a home screen with icons for all of your programs,
and you had to click exit to desktop to get into windows.

~~~
MBCook
Come to think of it, the start screen isn't too far off from At Ease either. I
remember all the Macs in school ran locked down copies to keep the students
from messing with the computers and make it easier to find programs for the
little kids.

[1] <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/At_Ease>

------
jaybill
And it STILL doesn't play DVDs without additional software! _sigh_

~~~
potatolicious
This seems far less egregious now than it was a few years ago...

~~~
pkmays
Oddly, Windows 7 Pro does have DVD support out of the box.

------
foohbarbaz
The only way I am going to see Windows 8 is with a new PC (which is a few
years away, next purchase is probably an Apple product), or at work.

At work the IT dept will hopefully skip this version all together, or take a
few years before "approving" it.

------
mikeratcliffe
Meh, the interface makes no sense without a touchscreen.

~~~
Iaks
Exacerbating this is the fact that Windows 7 is arguably at full stride right
now and has almost no points that I really want changed. Why then do I give
myself (actually, pay for) a headache with this new release?

~~~
aik
>> Exacerbating this is the fact that Windows 7 is arguably at full stride
right now and has almost no points that I really want changed.

Sounds like another anti-innovation/change comment on hn. If this is not,
please tell me how?

~~~
dendory
How is changing the desktop we currently have, which works for most people and
everyone is used to, for a completely new system that is clearly meant for a
device other than the PC, innovation?

Change != always good.

~~~
untog
I think he was just pointing out that Hacker News can be somewhat
schizophrenic on this topic. "WTF why won't Craigslist improve, it is anti-
innovation" vs. "Why did MS change their UI?!?"

And yes, before someone makes the statement, HN is made up of individuals with
their own opinions etc. etc.

~~~
viscanti
I think the difference is between things that work don't need to be changed,
just for the sake of change. Things that are broken, or suffer from poor
usability should change. Not everything needs to change, but I think it's fair
to want broken things to change without advocating that everything change just
because.

~~~
HelloMcFly
But that's so short-sighted! You know what worked? The Motorola RAZR. But then
the iPhone came out and it was a radical change and, even though many said at
the time "I just need to make calls and text", it set the standard.

If your mentality is always "if it ain't broke don't fix it" then you're
probably going to get disrupted. Windows 7 wasn't broke, but the future of the
desktop environment looks like it might be, so Microsoft is trying to merge
desktop and mobile. It may not work, but you must at least somewhat sympathize
with their need to try.

~~~
CamperBob2
Metro is no iPhone.

~~~
HelloMcFly
No, it doesn't need to be in order for the illustration to be apt. "If it
isn't broke, don't fix it" is a mentality asking for disruption.

~~~
viscanti
The argument isn't "If it isn't broke, don't fix it". It's that not all change
is necessary (or even good). If something is clearly broken, by all means fix
it. If it's not, then things get more complicated. Maybe a change is still in
order (but maybe it's broken in a non-obvious way, like the Razr in a smart-
phone world). The idea that change is always good and always a sign of
progress is absolutely false.

------
itry
Will this thing behave nicely when I put it on a machine which already has
grub and several linux partitions? Or will it insist on killing grub or even
do worse stuff to my machine?

~~~
mulletbum
I would assume it kills Grub. I haven't tried, but Microsoft will most likely
demand you use the Windows boot loader as they usually do in previous
versions. Then you can probably re install Grub and set all of them back up
together.

------
tonyedgecombe
I've been using it since the RTM and it seems fine.

However I can't say I am any more productive than I was with Windows 2000.

------
whalesalad
Microsoft has a problem with not specifying fallback fonts for non-Windows
machines: <http://wsld.me/KPlc>

Looks like they're setting the font explicitly to 'Segoe UI' and nothing else
in many spots. Telerik, a .NET CMS provider does a similar thing.

~~~
Timmy_C
I suspect they believe only visitors with Windows machines will ever visit
their site.

------
mbesto
I'm trying to download it from GB and looks like it only allows from the US.
So I hopped on my US-VPN and still redirects me to the GB site. Anyone have
any idea how I get around this? (Note - I have a valid US credit card and am
prepared to pay in USD)

~~~
subsystem
Change your language setting to en-US?

~~~
mbesto
Yup, that'll do it. Thanks.

------
roryokane
Ars Technica’s five-page review of Windows 8:
[http://arstechnica.com/information-
technology/2012/10/window...](http://arstechnica.com/information-
technology/2012/10/windows-reimagined-a-review-of-windows-8/2/)

------
lucb1e
Quick question: Which build is released as consumer version now? There's
already been a release preview, I wonder if they are the same.

~~~
Zr40
The RTM version is, which is 6.2.9200.16384.

------
mtgx
I don't think regular users will like this much, and forcing them to go into
Metro will only make more people hate it, rather than like it. Fan bases grow
when the growth is natural, not when it's forced.

[http://www.foolproof.co.uk/is-planet-earth-ready-for-
windows...](http://www.foolproof.co.uk/is-planet-earth-ready-for-windows-8/)

~~~
MBCook
It really wouldn't surprise me at all if it turned out that tons of regular
users _loved_ Metro. The problem I keep reading about is the fact you can't
stay in Metro all the time. There are some settings that you have to go into
desktop mode to mess with, and if you're only used to Metro that's going to be
really confusing.

~~~
contextfree
The design is that there really isn't a "desktop mode". the desktop is a
feature/surface of the system, it's not something you switch your whole
computer into.

~~~
Zr40
While perhaps technically true, as a user you really don't notice any of that.
When you log in to Windows 8, it automatically shows the Start screen. While
this is Metro, all you have to do is start any desktop application, and the
desktop appears.

This is no different in Windows 7. After logging in, surely you would start
any application, either by opening the Start menu, or by clicking a
application pinned to the task bar, or by double-clicking a shortcut on the
desktop. You can put anything onto the Windows 8 Start screen (just right
click a file or directory and select Pin to Start), so it's functionally
identical -- just with bigger buttons.

And if you really don't like it, you can always move the Desktop tile to the
top left, so you can enter the desktop by pressing Enter.

------
zwischenzug
...and screws up my evening by apparently breaking flash. We only warned our
clients 4 months ago.

~~~
Zr40
How does it apparently break Flash? It's working fine for me in Chrome and
Internet Explorer.

~~~
zwischenzug
Yeah I should have clarified: for IE10, if you're not on the compat list, and
you're in ModernUI.

We did warn them... but did they listen?

------
niggler
Windows 8 has been available for months for free on Microsoft BizSpark
(<http://www.microsoft.com/bizspark/>)

------
Tooluka
So how can I buy it? (full, not upgrade). I thought that they'll sell digital
Win 8 Pro for 79$ but can't find any option for this at MS store.

------
Syssiphus
Run for the hills!

------
fady
i like how the kids look super into the new surface (pic 4).. i bet those
peeps were either "paid" to be there, or set up so that they would all look so
interested in that device.. srsly, why would someone buy a surface?

~~~
freehunter
Wow, a big surprise that actors are employed in marketing material. Next thing
you're going to tell me is that Justin Long and John Hodgman got paid for the
Mac vs PC commercials or that the guys in the Samsung Galaxy ads weren't
actually real people happening to stumble upon a crowd at an Apple store.

Unless by putting "paid" in scare quotes, you were implying something slightly
less scrupulous...

~~~
fady
yeah i was.. i was just saying that those kids look waaay to interested in
what that guy is doing, and his facial expression also seems a little off.. i
may have miss-communicated my intention, for that, i apologize

------
propercoil
Someone once said Windows 8 looks like a 5 dollar app. That sums it up for me

