
Florida scientist fired for refusing to manipulate Covid-19 data - tmountain
https://www.floridatoday.com/story/news/2020/05/19/florida-scientist-refused-manipulate-covid-19-data-and-fired/5219137002/
======
kuyan
Previously:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23231237](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23231237)

~~~
brlewis
Previously, responsibility for the dashboard was taken away. The firing is
new.

~~~
mehrdadn
Huh? I don't think so... the previous article points to this article.

------
xamuel
makomk posted an interesting comment on another thread here 12 hours ago,
which I'll paste below. (from
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23233097](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23233097))

I think I've got a good guess what data she didn't want removed or changed,
and it's not exactly good for her case. On May the 5th, they day she was
removed from her position, there was an all-time high spike of 113 reported
coronavirus deaths due to Florida reporting a bunch of old deaths all at once:
[https://www.tampabay.com/news/health/2020/05/15/florida-
adds...](https://www.tampabay.com/news/health/2020/05/15/florida-
adds-43-coronavirus-deaths-as-state-continues-to-reopen/)

This did not represent an actual spike in deaths which had in reality been
declining, but if I remember rightly some people did spin it as deaths
increasing due to the lockdown being lifted. Deaths by date reported are
conspicuously missing from the current version of the dashboard; it only has
dates by date of death, which is far less favourable to the claim that lifting
the lockdown is causing an increase in deaths.

~~~
brlewis
Let me enumerate the doubts I have about makomk's speculative guess.

1\. The linked article in the comment reflects a clear understanding of the
lag between occurrence and report dates, which points to the dashboard not
having been in any kind of misleading state.

2\. Even when a lot of politics is being played, it does not seem plausible
that people were spinning deaths reported May 5 as being due to the May 4
reopening.

3\. The "in reality had been declining" part fails to acknowledge the way
reporting by occurrence date always makes graphs have a decline at the end
(see rovolo's comment, sibling to mine)

~~~
jtbayly
> "it does not seem plausible that people were spinning deaths reported May 5
> as being due to the May 4 reopening."

You've got to be kidding. Here on Hacker News people were buying the very same
sort of spin from an article about the 1918 flu epidemic and San Francisco (I
think that was the city). I've seen _lots_ of people on either "side" of this
issue buy into absolutely outrageous claims that are clearly just spin.

For example, weeks ago somebody on the "open up now" side graphed the data
from the CDC showing that deaths around the country weren't increasing, but in
fact plummeting. The page with the data is explicit in multiple places that
the data is incomplete for many weeks into the past. Then, weeks later I heard
that the official death toll from Covid-19 had been cut by 50%. When I asked
for a source, it was that same page with data that lags by up to 8 weeks.

Another example: somebody on the "panic now" side reported (in the news, IIRC)
that Michigan's positive test ratio was skyrocketing and had reached 47%. The
only table that contained positive vs negative test results _clearly_ had not
been reporting the negative tests at all. They should have just gone ahead and
claimed that 100% of the tests in MI were positive, since that was what the
table showed for the previous 5 days.

The fake news around Covid-19 has been driving me absolutely crazy on both
sides.

~~~
JoshTriplett
Framing two sides as "open up now" and "panic now" does not help your case.

~~~
nashashmi
I think putting both viewpoints down basically implied he was impartial and
and talking of those who had an agenda.

It helps reduce verbiage.

~~~
ceejayoz
Calling “stay in lockdown” a panicked response seems like picking a side to
me.

~~~
jtbayly
But I didn’t call it that. I called lying about what was happening in MI in
order to make people think things were way worse than they really are, the
“panic now” side.

Do you not agree that such lies are bad? Perhaps you think the end justifies
the means, but in that case, you might want to consider what telling lies does
to the public’s perception of your trustworthiness when you tell them it’s
necessary to stay in lockdown.

And then there’s all the real reasons _not_ to panic. Because hoarding is bad
for everybody. Because failing to seek necessary medical care for your
ruptured appendix because you’re afraid of getting Covid-19 as a 28-year old
would be pretty bad. And on and on.

What possible good do the lies I described above accomplish?

------
natrik
From a reddit comment:

>An epidemiologist, Dr. Carina Blackmore, was the one who contacted the IT
director to make the change. Then the IT director contacted Rebekah Jones to
actually implement the change and she threw a fit. There is nothing to suggest
Dr. Blackmore is political or wanted to support reopening.

>[https://www.tampabay.com/news/health/2020/05/19/florida-
heal...](https://www.tampabay.com/news/health/2020/05/19/florida-health-
department-officials-told-manager-to-delete-coronavirus-data-before-
reassigning-her-emails-show/)

>What Dr. Blackmore asked to be removed was a count of unconfirmed cases based
on self-reported symptoms. They only wanted confirmed cases represented.

~~~
glenstein
Who is making the claim that she 'threw a fit'? The redditor? That's
patronizing, not something that helps me understand the nature of the
disagreement, and not something that makes me think any attempt is being made
at a charitable attempt to understand her actions.

~~~
boublepop
Charity goes both ways. Jones hasn’t reported more details than this, so to
attack reports that don’t align with hers based on inaccurate language while
supporting her complete lack of details seems dishonest. And come on, we both
know what a developer throwing a fit means.

~~~
glenstein
>And come on, we both know what a developer throwing a fit means.

No, I really don't. Tell me. Did she yell? Knock over a computer? What did she
do? And then tell me which line of which news article supports that as a fair
and charitable characterization. I don't know where that is coming from other
than a commenter just asserting it. Meanwhile, as far as you are concerned, as
long as you can close your eyes and picture what the fictional description of
'throwing a fit' looks like, that, rather than factual accuracy, is enough for
you to accept the description.

And I don't see how 'charity goes both ways' has anything to do with anything,
insofar as it's relevant to the characterization of Jones. It's not an answer
or justification, it's a smoking crater of nothingness. Do you have anything
else?

------
henriquez
> she was fired because she was ordered to censor some data, but refused to
> "manually change data to drum up support for the plan to reopen."

>

> She provided no further details.

We’re gonna need some more meat on this bone. The facts presented do not
support the headline.

~~~
coding123
While I don't disagree that we need more information, basically the only
person that is qualified to suggest what was asked to be changed is the person
fired, so if you don't take her word for it, then the state of Florida
officials that want to bury this, are going to win.

~~~
xamuel
>basically the only person that is qualified to suggest what was asked to be
changed is the person fired

What? By this logic, it would be virtually impossible to fire anyone who was
willing to lie about what was said behind closed doors. Not saying the person
in the article is lying, but I hope we haven't devolved to a state where
individuals can make claims about wrongful termination and just automatically
be assumed to be telling the truth. We have courts of law and discovery
processes and things like that.

~~~
loa_in_
You hopefully do realize that obviously in case of wrongful termination the
state has incentive to cover it up. And... She's the only person fighting on
her side and no lawyer has incentive to take a potentially losing battle
against order of magnitude bigger opponent.

------
pera
There is something really wrong with how Florida is handling COVID-19 data,
just a few weeks ago:

 _Florida medical examiners were releasing coronavirus death data. The state
made them stop._

[https://www.tampabay.com/news/health/2020/04/29/florida-
medi...](https://www.tampabay.com/news/health/2020/04/29/florida-medical-
examiners-were-releasing-coronavirus-death-data-the-state-made-them-stop/)

~~~
KarlKemp
They were (are?) also not counting deaths by visitors from out-of-state.

Even the likes of Belarus, Saudi Arabia, Iran, China, or Brazil seem to have
realised either that it's better for them to be transparent, or that fudging
the numbers is always going to come out in the end.

I'm somewhat certain such shenanigans are magnitudes worse for a state's
image. New York is seen as unlucky, or maybe incompetent. Florida is corrupt.
A failed state.

~~~
ceejayoz
Florida has a _lot_ of out of staters, too; a million elderly folks come for
the winter and typically wouldn’t be counted as residents. They’re also the
demographic that dies at very elevated rates.

~~~
desigooner
Deaths are not reported based on residency - Deaths are reported based on the
actual location of death. If the death occurs in Florida, it counts as a
Florida Death as per CDC / NCHS.

~~~
ceejayoz
[https://www.tampabay.com/news/health/2020/05/06/under-
pressu...](https://www.tampabay.com/news/health/2020/05/06/under-pressure-
florida-released-a-controversial-list-of-coronavirus-deaths-but-key-
information-is-blacked-out/)

> What’s more, the health department has said it is only including Florida
> residents in its count, although after the Times’ report it began posting
> some data on non-resident deaths in feeds online.

> “By their own admission, they are not counting every Florida death,” Nelson
> said. “I’m surprised that they are ahead.”

------
downerending
This article has a bit more detail, particularly on her email to users. It
reads a bit like "I am virtuous, my bosses are scoundrels, and you should
expect my successors to be liars".

It's possible that there really is fire here, but that's a textbook example of
how _not_ to blow the whistle and be seen as credible.

[https://www.tampabay.com/news/health/2020/05/19/florida-
heal...](https://www.tampabay.com/news/health/2020/05/19/florida-health-
department-officials-told-manager-to-delete-coronavirus-data-before-
reassigning-her-emails-show/)

~~~
vaidhy
>It's possible that there really is fire here, but that's a textbook example
of how not to blow the whistle and be seen as credible.

For some reason, this statement strikes me as being cruel to someone who is
willing to take a stand on moral principles. For someone to buck the orders,
it takes a lot of courage and be able to stand up under pressure. There are no
textbook examples of how to whistleblow and I think we owe these people who
are willing to call out problems as they see it a more charitable hearing.

~~~
downerending
> I think we owe these people who are willing to call out problems as they see
> it a more charitable hearing.

In general, whistleblowers should be attended to, due consideration should be
given to what they are risking.

But if you're going to do it, you need to build up a case and make it
carefully and dispassionately, and above all maintain your professionalism.
This reads more like a divorce proceeding.

~~~
hitekker
> But if you're going to do it, you need to build up a case and make it
> carefully and dispassionately, and above all maintain your professionalism.

Last time I checked, the whistleblower wasn't raving or cursing on the way
out.

It sounds like you're just generally uncomfortable with questioning authority.

~~~
downerending
Wrong number.

------
NicoJuicy
Some here mention that possible cases are different than confirmed cases and
she made an error.

If you know the Belgian story and the "big" amount of cases. Then you should
know the country lists "suspected cases" as cases in every metric.

So while the number for Belgium looks a lot higher, since a lot of "other
causes than COVID" are listed as cases in contrary to other countries.

We are one of the few that overestimate their cases, but we also don't need to
verify the suspected cases as confirmed cases ( + put effort in that).

Probably every other country "undercounts" their cases.

This also led to the faulty conclusion of 'president T.' that Belgium is doing
bad, informed observers would have known that is not correct to say :)

One of many references: [https://www.brusselstimes.com/all-news/belgium-all-
news/1064...](https://www.brusselstimes.com/all-news/belgium-all-
news/106454/coronavirus-why-belgium-also-counts-suspected-deaths/)

------
socrates1998
Another example of the people who control the data often can control the
narrative that they want.

The irony that data is supposed to have more truth to it than narratives is
not lost on me.

Regardless of the details of this example, it's scary how in the dark the
public is for something that is insanely important to live and death.

~~~
xamuel
Amen. And the weirdest part is it seems like whenever people manipulate the
data, it's always to support whatever narrative I oppose. Any time the data
supports the narrative I favor, said data is reliable and trustworthy. Has
anyone else noticed this? Isn't it weird?

~~~
rhacker
Even if we have all this math at our disposal, there's always a way to include
all data points you have private access to show the outcome you want. It would
be useful if we had some kind of open record act, as long as it doesn't reveal
PII - if a government agency shows us a graph, we should have the means to
duplicate it by getting access to the raw data (clipped of PII - i.e. Date of
Birth turns into age range buckets) Probably a no-go, but I'm just saying data
can be manipulated if you don't have unfettered access to it. I'm not saying
this to support this specific case - just pondering a possible answer to your
question.

------
HumblyTossed
> Rebekah Jones said in an email to FLORIDA TODAY that she single-handedly
> created two applications in two languages, four dashboards, six unique maps
> with layers of data functionality for 32 variables covering a half a million
> lines of data. Her objective was to create a way for Floridians and
> researchers to see what the COVID-19 situation was in real time.

She will not have a hard time finding further employment.

~~~
Mikeb85
Assuming she told the truth. Governments typically love bureaucracy and
massive projects, seems odd they'd fund any sort of website or app created by
a solo dev...

~~~
enraged_camel
Wow, it's incredible how many people are implying/assuming that she's some
sort of nasty liar.

~~~
Mikeb85
And it's incredible how many people are believing her despite the fact she
literally provided no evidence of any kind to back up her allegations. Not an
email, a text, a screenshot, example of where code or data was changed,
absolutely nothing except an email to a local newspaper with next to no
details.

~~~
cpncrunch
The tampabay news story linked elsewhere has the info. She didnt want to
remove unconfirmed cases. Not looking good for her.

------
every
There's science and there's politics. Guess which one usually prevails in the
short-term...

~~~
ImaCake
There is only so much you can do to cover up a pandemic and an economic
depression. People won't need numbers to understand either event when their
grandfather dies and they can't get a job to feed their children.

------
DonnyV
Its amazing the first thing people assume here is that she's lying. Why would
she lie? What does she gain?

~~~
disease
They are accusing her of lying because what she is saying does not confirm
their biases or reinforce their prejudices.

~~~
non-entity
Yes, the COVID-19 subject has generated way more controversy than I ever
expected. I'm sure if she was fired for refusing to cover up say, some sort of
mass privacy invasion, the general opinion here would be much more unanimous.

~~~
SpicyLemonZest
If she said "yeah they asked me to do a big privacy violation", with no
details about what the privacy violation was, I think people would still be
pretty skeptical.

------
scarmig
It's interesting that the crowd who were so outraged at the CPC carefully
massaging data are all of a sudden deeply sympathetic to the subtleties of
data reporting and presentation and the need to be very conservative when
estimating deaths.

------
ponker
Any idea why the elderly voter bloc in Florida hasn’t been able to
successfully lobby for total and long term shutdown? I thought their voting
power was very high.

------
JadeNB
Not that I have any doubt about political manipulation going on, but removing
"she said" from the end of the headline seems to change its meaning.

------
duxup
Has she said exactly what she was told to change?

That would be more helpful to really understand it. All we have is her
characterization of what happened.

------
jariel
"One day before a top Florida Department of Health data manager lost her role
maintaining the state’s COVID-19 data, she objected to the removal of records
showing people had symptoms or positive tests before the cases were announced,
according to internal emails obtained by the Tampa Bay Times." [1]

This does not support the whistleblower narrative, this seems like a front
end/front line communications person disagreeing with a decision that is
legitimately made by her seniors.

It's hard to tell exactly, but it seems reasonable to me that the board might
not want to include such information, as it may be spotty, not consistently
collected or reported, and frankly it may have no value to the public good.

The Canadian government, the Ontario/Quebec government, the CBC - nowhere do I
see that level of reporting and nobody here is complaining about censorship
and whistleblowing.

I think HN has jumped the gun her to assume the validity of this ostensible
whistle-blowing action, and I suggest there's some nuance here and no obvious
signs of malicious practice.

"As a word of caution, I would not expect the new team to continue the same
level of accessibility and transparency that I made central to the process
during the first two months. After all, my commitment to both is largely
(arguably entirely) the reason I am no longer managing it,” [2] - this is kind
of an arrogant assumption. What she should have done instead was made specific
reference to the information, why it is important, highlighted the problems in
the process and how we can be assured that it's addressed.

And there's this from the same article: “exhibited a repeated course of
insubordination during her time with the Department, including her unilateral
decisions to modify the Department’s COVID-19 dashboard without input or
approval from the epidemiological team or her supervisors.” So it would seem
the state is claiming there's some unprofessional behaviour her on her part,
and the point about not consulting with the epidemiological team is
particularly difficult.

[1] [https://www.tampabay.com/news/health/2020/05/19/florida-
heal...](https://www.tampabay.com/news/health/2020/05/19/florida-health-
department-officials-told-manager-to-delete-coronavirus-data-before-
reassigning-her-emails-show/)

[2] [https://www.tampabay.com/news/health/2020/05/19/florida-
heal...](https://www.tampabay.com/news/health/2020/05/19/florida-health-
department-officials-told-manager-to-delete-coronavirus-data-before-
reassigning-her-emails-show/)

------
jackfoxy
Can someone summarize exactly what manipulation she refused?

~~~
Mikeb85
No because she never actually provided those details. It states this in the
article.

~~~
cpncrunch
See the tampabay art linked elsewhere. She didnt want the unconfirmed cases
removed. Clickbait article. Flagged.

------
tracer4201
The CDC hasn’t had a single briefing since March. The President came out and
stated he’s taking a drug that his own officials say at best, doesn’t do much,
and at worst, can kill you, tells you everything you need to know. The whole
situation has gotten political. Trump called himself a wartime president but
now apparently it’s all a hoax from the democrats.

------
vmchale
This is banana republic shit.

------
pacala
Full title: Florida scientist was fired for 'refusing to manipulate' COVID-19
data, she said

~~~
mellosouls
Don't know why you have been down-voted, the title has been _significantly_
editorialised!

Maybe she was fired for the reasons she claimed, but lets have some diligence
at least in our representation and reading of the article, and respect the
rules of this site.

------
egberts1
Oy, she wasn’t fired. She was removed from her position much like a high
school principal removed toward middle-school math teacher. But she wasn’t let
go, much less fired.

~~~
HumblyTossed
> The scientist who created Florida's COVID-19 data portal wasn't just removed
> from her position on May 5, she was fired on Monday by the Department of
> Health, she said, for refusing to manipulate data.

That's not the way I read it.

------
throwawaysea
This person is alleging that Florida is looking to understate deaths,
presumably to support their reopening plans. There are also stories of states
overstating deaths as well (see
[https://www.freedomfoundation.com/washington/washington-
stat...](https://www.freedomfoundation.com/washington/washington-state-over-
reporting-covid-19-deaths/)), presumably to support their intent to retain
strict restrictions.

I am guessing generally, there is less malice involved than people ascribe to
these situations. We don't have all the facts or perspectives, so let's take
things slowly, wait for more information to come out, and analyze the facts
with the full picture in front of us. Jumping to outrage mode, which then
becomes a hardened position we dig ourselves into, does not help us seek the
truth.

~~~
FireBeyond
Not so much. Even by their own article (with its own biases - show me an
article on this site that has ever postulated that there might be merit to
restrictions):

> Completing each “cause of death worksheet” involves listing the “immediate
> cause” of death, the “underlying cause(s)” that initiated the events
> culminating with the immediate cause of death, and “(o)ther significant
> conditions contributing to death but not resulting in the underlying cause.”
> These fields are completed based on the “best medical opinion” of the
> certifier.

Is not "overstating deaths ... to support their intent to retain strict
restrictions". It's stating - as it would with _any other disease_ that the
patient had other co-morbidities, just as if you had diabetes, or CHF, etc.
It's not the exaggerated, grand standing hyperbole of "Patient in car accident
had COVID-19, so COVID-19 was listed as the cause of death", which simply
hasn't happened. "Contributing to death, but not the underlying cause, in the
best medical opinion of the physician/ME".

In contrast, Florida has numerous documented instances of government
interference with this (restricting coroners from reporting _any_ data,
pressuring law firms related to the media filing FOI requests).

~~~
ngcc_hk
To avoid this, the Italian has tried a side indicator, no of death over
expected death. Not exact but could help.

~~~
KarlKemp
Not just Italy: "excess mortality" is being looked at for every country:
[https://www.economist.com/graphic-
detail/2020/04/16/tracking...](https://www.economist.com/graphic-
detail/2020/04/16/tracking-covid-19-excess-deaths-across-countries)

It's widely regarded as the gold standard, but usually not available weeks or
months later. And while it is very _reliable_ , it is somewhat less _precise_
, and therefore not useful to gain a nuanced picture of the disease's impact
when there are few deaths.

~~~
rsynnott
It’s also extremely slow. Most places are very slow in reporting normal death,
ie those from non-notifiable causes. This is very visible in the euromomo
data.

------
boublepop
I have a fleeting suspicion that her story won’t check out. It sounds a lot
like they brought on more people to back her because of data and operational
errors and she fought back against them to the point where they had to move
her away from her position which she took to the media leaving them to let her
go.

I’m not saying that is definitely the case but I’m eagerly awaiting their
response.

~~~
FireBeyond
What are you basing this on? Certainly not the Florida state government's
official position and activities thus far.

Withholding information on nursing home cases, interfering with media law
firms, refusing coroners to release any information so far.

But now, apparently, "she's doing it wrong; we just want to make sure accurate
and complete numbers get out to the public".

Fleeting suspicion, indeed.

~~~
boublepop
Yes indeed, what I said was a fleeting suspicions was a fleeting suspicion.
Are we really at the point in online discourse where being literal is so
foreign to people that it needs to be attacked?

I’m basing my suspension on the reported article, I’m not making any
accusations. Though as has been reported, there have been issues where poor
reporting of numbers (like reporting deaths by date reported instead of date
of death), led to significantly distorted interpretations, which good data
scientists would tell you that you need to avoid. This is similar to someone
making a “technically true” graph with an offset origin to make it look like
there is a huge relative difference between two columns. In that case how you
make your visuals matter. And if someone tells you that you need to “manually
change the origin to zero” and you won’t do it because your report suits your
narrative, then that’s an issue. If it’s actually the case that she wanted to
keep showing deaths by date reported instead of date of death because a spike
appearing in the less acccurate report made it look like deaths spiked after
opening up, then that’s a valid issue.

But again, this is all just speculation backing a suspicion and it will be
interesting to see their response. Her report is extremely light on details
and can’t really be described as whistleblowing as much as just someone
venting personal frustrations online and making currenlty unbased accusations.
That may change if she provides further details to back her claims of cause.

