

Startup Founders: Don't Defer Long-Term Travel Till Retirement - todsul
http://globetrooper.com/notes/travel-retirement/

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jasonkester
Until maybe 10 years ago, there was exactly one profession where you could
travel full time and still do your job at full efficiency: Writer.

Now there are exactly two.

It amazes me that so few software developers take advantage of this fact. You
can fit your entire working world into a four pound laptop and connect to the
internet through the _sky_. People will pay you the same money to write your
code from the beach as they will to write it from a cube in the suburbs.

The future is pretty cool.

~~~
xentronium
> It amazes me that so few software developers take advantage of this fact.

Actually software developers would take advantage of this fact, if there were
more jobs for remote workers. Look into HN "who is hiring" monthly threads:
most companies want on-site workers, most workers want remote jobs.

~~~
sliverstorm
Indeed. Workers think they can be just as effective working remotely, but
employers feel otherwise, and I have come to agree with them. The only time I
could see working remotely go well is if you were doing something simple and
lone, such as developing a website as a contractor.

~~~
todsul
It took us about 6 months to really find our groove and work efficiently on
the road. Now after more than a year, we settle into new places pretty
quickly. It takes a day or two to get fully productive, which is pretty
negligible out of 3-6 months. Plus we lose another couple of days to arranging
flights, visas, etc.

There's also a productivity uptick from working in foreign cities. With no
friends or family around, you'd be surprised how much extra time you have.
Some of that time is spent meeting locals and joining expeditions, but
otherwise, weekends are free from external disruptions (unlike at home).

It's certainly not for everyone because some people find it difficult to self-
motivate and others just don't like to travel. And if there's one real
downside, it's that we spend less time with other tech founders. We try to
meet-up with them where possible, and in Montreal we met many more than at
home, but in lesser developed places, it's not so easy.

All of that said, living in countries like India, Bolivia, Peru and Thailand
(which we've previously done) is highly thought-provoking. I don't mean in the
clichéd charitable sense, but day-to-day seeing how we all live. It tends to
get the creative juices flowing.

Watching how people do business in India, for example, provides a lot of
lessons for business in developed countries. The fundamentals are the same,
but often the drivers are different (lower margins, higher volume, lower
income, cheaper labour, government regulation, corruption, etc.) Both positive
and negative drivers provide useful lessons.

I remember suggesting to one guy that his idea wasn't very scalable because it
relied on lots of manual labour. He said, "what do you mean, of course labour
is scalable." Of course in India, labour is pretty scalable. I was very
surprised to see the value you'd get for $1.

This actually brings another positive of working on the road. In places like
India, we saved a lot of time because we never have to cook, clean, wash
clothes, drive, etc. It makes sense to outsource these services because the
price drops way below the value we ascribe to our time.

We have recently promised to slow down a little; maybe 6+ months in each city
where visas allow.

~~~
sliverstorm
I wasn't even thinking about the impacts of constantly moving around on
individual productivity; rather, I have usually worked in a team, and things
work better when you can speak face-to-face.

------
bignoggins
Absolutely agree with this. I left on a round the world trip in April with my
wife. We've been through Australia, South Korea, Japan, Taiwan, Hong Kong,
Spain, Germany, Czech Republic, Hungary, and now Austria. I spend half of my
time traveling / meeting people and the other half building my mobile app
business. The trip is costing us about $5000/mo (using airbnb and being fairly
liberal with spending on food and attractions, we have 0 expenses in the
states since we packed everything into storage), but I've managed to triple
revenues this year to ~ 25K/mo, so if we wanted to we could do this
indefinitely.

I know many people who are working 80 hrs/week on their startup while letting
life pass them by (including a few in YC), but I wouldn't trade places with
them. These days it is entirely possible to build a company and live your
dreams at the same time.

~~~
endlessvoid94
I'd love to know your story and background. Do you have a lot of experience in
the mobile space? iOS or Android? Do you have employees? Contractors?

What sort of apps do you build?

~~~
bignoggins
both iOS and android. I use some contractors but do most of the programming
myself. My apps are listed in my profile, mostly sports related.

------
cageface
Quitting my 9-to-5 to travel around SE Asia was the best move I ever made. Not
only have I had countless irreplaceable experiences but my code has improved
more in the last six months than in the previous five years combined.

~~~
endlessvoid94
why has your code improved?

~~~
fragsworth
New experiences probably have some effect on your ability to think abstractly.
I've heard similar anecdotes of people improving various skills due to
traveling.

~~~
sliverstorm
Alternatively, being forced to get away from the console may have helped get
him past coder's block in his development.

------
Tsagadai
This really depends on your definition of 'travel'. Do you just want to go
places? See ruins? Meet people? Eat? It all depends on how you define what
travel is. I personally prefer to think of travel as cultural immersion.
Jumping into an unfamiliar situation and going gonzo. Live as they live; learn
the customs, language, modes of interaction, how to cook the food, how to
relax, and so forth. You don't have to travel in the traditional sense to do
this, there are many cultures available and accessible within your own
country. I'll list a few for you, the military, remote communities, big
cities, artistic enclaves, and the list keeps going. Join one. Experience it,
learn the good and bad and finally move on, or don't. Rinse and repeat.

Experiencing what humanity has to offer give valuable insights. It really
don't matter where or who, you can learn something new and if you think about
how you can harness that information you can use it to found a successful
business or just keep it to yourself for your own satisfaction.

If you want to build a startup, what better way to do that than to find an
untapped market in connection one or more groups of people. Travel is as much
an investment in yourself as formal and self education.

------
CitizenKane
I'm doing this right now actually. I've been in Europe for two weeks and I'm
in Prague for the next two months.

It does take a somewhat adventuresome spirit. Often it's difficult to get any
kind of long term accomidation beforehand. You're often going to places where
you don't speak the language. It can seem very daunting. However, I've found
that in most places things seem to go reasonably well. I've managed to find
few month accomidation in countries where I don't speak the language at all.

As far as cost, it can be surprisingly cheap. The most expensive part by far
are the initial and return flights. Beyond that, the US Dollar gets a long way
in places and I've found that doing this also helps you accumlate less junk
(you don't really want to be carrying all that stuff around with you).
Thankfully, reliable broadband internet is becoming pervasive and with that
there are more and more places that you can reasonably work out of.

If you haven't done it then get off your ass and do it! You won't regret it.

~~~
todsul
Finding accommodation is one of the toughest parts, but I think it teaches you
how to be resourceful. When in a country with a different language and non-
latin script (e.g. Russia, China, Japan), you really have to hustle and work
with locals to find good deals. It's tough, but it toughens you up too.

We especially found it easy in Argentina and Thailand, where there are big
medium-term accommodation markets.

It was much harder in India, despite many English speakers, because in some
states they have funky regulation where you have to pay 10 months rent as a
deposit, even if you're only staying for 3 months.

As for broadband, after India, the US had by far the worst and least pervasive
WiFi of anywhere we've lived. New York was a shocker. We were running around
looking for Starbucks just to use Google maps.

In Chiang Mai (Thailand), everywhere has at least 6Mbps free Wifi. When I say
everywhere, I even mean little open-air cafes that sell pad thai for $1. Right
now there's a pub around the corner from us that has a consistent 20Mbps. It's
always free and the food/drinks are super cheap.

------
driverdan
I left my job to do freelance web development full time in February this year.
In June I started traveling. I can do it for $50-75 a day, including food,
transportation, and lodging. Hostels, cooking my own food, and public transit.
This is in the US too, it's even cheaper in southeast Asia and other parts of
the world.

------
mathattack
Travel (even if short term) increases cultural awareness and creativity -
there is a payoff too.

------
michaelochurch
People don't defer travel because it's "too expensive". It's not. They do it
because they can't when they're young. Most people are not established enough
to set their own rules, and like it or not, the career game is age-graded and
being in a 25-year-old's position at 30 makes it that much harder to be taken
seriously in the future.

The OP is already established enough to be able to travel and work. One of the
things that comes out of a private equity stint is a fat Rolodex. That's a
top-1% situation.

Most people aren't in a position to travel until age 30-35, when they have
kids. This makes it hard to travel, except in the summer. And because of
extreme government irresponsibility (not cracking down on airlines and hotels
that jack up their rates when school's out) it's far more expensive than it
should be.

~~~
dualogy
Here's a fast track for you to "get established" and come out at "top-1%" with
a "fat rolodex": launch those "fair airlines and hotels" that are _not_ more
expensive than you presume to know "they should be". No government needed.

~~~
michaelochurch
Hotels are generally fairly priced during the off-season.

Airlines: often they have long-term leases on airports (i.e. government
favoritism) that give them a gatekeeper privilege. Hence the ridiculous fares
.

If you really think that an average person can bring together the means to
"launch" an airline, then my advice to you is to stop spending so much time on
Hacker News now that the school year has begun. The first rule of freshman-
year survival: cut distractions.

~~~
dualogy
True, an "average person" cannot launch an airline, but then, an average
person cannot launch much of anything. Is this the extent of your aspirations?
Richard Branson could pull it off. As for the freshman thing, thanks for the
laughs, trollman. Now please continue with your frustrations about how hotels
and airlines destroy your quality of life (rather than, say, contribute to its
improvement at any price that works for both parties; otherwise, no one's
loss). And if you're deluded that by handcuffing them, "the government" (any
govt. really) would be acting only in your own best interest, wait until they
stoke you, too.

~~~
michaelochurch
Okay, okay, s/average person/person of average means .

Yes, I am a fan of government action against private malfeasance. The private
health insurance industry, in the form that exists in the U.S., shouldn't
exist.

------
georgieporgie
For any young HNers out there, let me say that travel is a skill like any
other, and you shouldn't put off building it.

Growing up American, my image of travel was staying in hotels in Europe and
looking at things we were told were important when we were in school. That's
expensive and very isolating. This may be great for well-heeled, older couples
looking for a minimally-exposed, relaxing jaunt abroad, but it's not what you
want. It seems like every travel brochure I ever saw in the U.S. featured a
photo of a healthy looking, silver-haired couple laughing and enjoying views
from afar.

Instead, traveling on the cheap, staying in hostels, and getting directly
involved in adventures is fun, mind-expanding, and most of all, _not_ lonely.

I stayed for a week in a very friendly guest house in rural, northern Thailand
for $6 per night. The hosts would cook meals for around $2, or you could tromp
around and play every expat's favorite game: Who Has The Cheapest Lunch.

Like I said, though, travel is a skill. Just like that crappy code you wrote,
your first trip will probably suck. But you'll look back on it fondly, after
you've absorbed all the lessons it contained, and forgotten a few of the worst
parts. More importantly, you'll level-up and your next trip will be better.

~~~
mibbit
Travel is something _some_ people enjoy. Like playing football. Sure it's a
skill, but it's one that not everyone will be good at, or enjoy.

Just to provide a counterpoint... If you don't enjoy, or want to travel,
don't. Find something you do enjoy and do that instead.

~~~
georgieporgie
I disagree. Travel is much, much bigger than football. If you don't enjoy
travel, then you haven't found the sort of travel that you enjoy.

~~~
mibbit
OK football was a bad choice. A better one would be learning about history.
Some people enjoy learning history. Some don't.

