
When You Are Depressed, Make Something - ohjeez
https://byrslf.co/when-you-are-depressed-make-something-49467edd1933#.yg26duthw
======
sixo
When you are depressed, see if there's a serious problem in your life that is
causing you to be depressed and devote as much time and energy as you can
muster towards exploring solutions to that problem, even if they entail
dramatic life-changing decisions, because that's the kind of problem we're
dealing with here.

Examples of such problems: you hate your graduate program. You have no friends
in your city and no idea where to look. You are unattractive and wish you
weren't. You are skeptical of your faith. You have no activities or hobbies
that involve other people and wish you did. You are not as good at software
engineering as you want to be. Your job is hell. You fake a character in
social situations that makes you hate yourself. You are impotent at facing
injustice that you perceive in the world. You are uninspired by the prospects
of the career or community available to you. Any of the above + you drink, do
drugs, or play video games to avoid dealing with it. * Another: your career is
pointless or selfish

Short term solutions like exercise, making friends, or talking to people, and
making something will only fix the depression if they happen to address the
actual problem - which there's a good chance they do. And of course, the whole
situation can spiral out of control and compromise your ability to do
something about it, in which case professional help + drugs can make all the
difference.

~~~
komali2
I completely disagree with you.

I believe you are describing solutions to problems that can make someone sad
or frustrated, which is a fine thing. I'm all about being real about your life
situation and doing something about it.

However, depression is a disease independent of external factors. I had it
when I had arguably one of the coolest jobs in my life up until that point. I
treated it with medication, got out of the slump, and applied techniques to
stave it away.

Those techniques are what you called "short term solutions." I think of them
as long-term preventative measures to stave off the chemical imbalance that
can cause depression. Regular exercise keeps up your serotonin and endorphin
levels, as well as helps you maintain a healthy body-image. Interacting with
people, also increases serotonin and endorphin levels, and ensures you don't
feel lonely. Engaging creatively keeps your brain active and, you guessed it,
increases serotonin and endorphin levels, as well as distracts from the "why
do I bother" feeling, aka, gives you a "reason."

One of the most important lessons I ever learned when I had a shit job. I kept
thinking "if I just get a better job, then I'll be happy." Then I realized how
much it would suck if my internal happiness depended totally upon
externalities - who's to say a good job is the "best" job? If I adopt that
mindset I'll always be chasing the carrot on the stick. The important thing is
to do what is necessary to be happy no matter what, and _then_ focus on the
externalities (the "problems" you describe).

~~~
cpncrunch
>Those techniques are what you called "short term solutions." I think of them
as long-term preventative measures to stave off the chemical imbalance that
can cause depression

What causes the chemical imbalances? Research on animals show that chronic
stress causes depression, so it definitely can be caused by external factors.
If your job is causing chronic stress then changing job is obviously a
plausible cure for your depression.

~~~
Broken_Hippo
To do that, you actually have to both be actually able to find and take a
different job plus have the clarity to know that such a thing will improve
your situation.

And with depression (or anxiety), this isn't so easy. It gets difficult to see
opportunities and easier to blame yourself, thinking, "I'm lucky to have this
crappy job and that they put up with me". It can make your job seem crappy,
even when it isn't.

I get to see the way the chemicals affect my brain once a month. Once a month,
I think I'm going to lose my job. That people dislike me. That people are
suddenly treating me harshly and I must have done something wrong. I consider
changing jobs.

This is like this even when I enjoy my work and actually like the folks I'm
surrounded with. It doesn't stop with work, but is a handy example.

I likely should be on anti-depressants half the month - if you've not figured
it out, I'm female and this is entirely hormone-related. Instead, I've
adjusted life. Once I realize what is going on, I can relax some on the
temporary nature of it all. Sometimes it works better than others.

The thing is when depression hits, for me, it is much like this. All the
freaking time. Work becomes a relief from home, home becomes a relief from
work, sleep a relief from it all. I literally don't have the capacity to sort
out which things in life to change or what to do next. I get stuck.

This is why it is a long-term preventative measure. Gotta catch this stuff
before the darkness sets in and messes with your sensors.

~~~
komali2
>before the darkness sets in and messes with your sensors

I like this language, "messes with your sensors." Depression is a disease
within the brain, and naturally it's difficult to observe a system from within
that system - _especially_ when those observational tools are affected by the
system itself.

So it's really hard to know you have depression and take the steps to treat
it, when you have depression.

~~~
stevedonovan
It is a marvelously true expression. _Whatever_ the cause, a real black-dog
depression robs a person of all sense of effective agency. The leg is broken
and needs a cast, and for many the drugs do work (personal experience). But
then the person needs to learn to walk again. It may be a disease (there is a
genetic component) but we don't know whether the observed neurotransmitter
problems are cause or effect.

Freud said that the purpose of therapy was to replace neurotic misery with
ordinary human unhappiness. Some Californians find that a bit of a downer, but
it's true, and we can do something about unhappiness.

------
paulpauper
The problem with trying to create something is once you begin to work hard at
it, you realize that you're not very good and others have done it far better
than you. I have notice this a lot with math.I will work on a problem and then
a Google search later reveals that the problem is not only completely solved
but in a way that is far better than I could have ever conceived. Another
problem is when you run out of ideas or if the creative endeavor doesn't
produce sufficient results. Creativity and execution is really hard, that I'll
grant.

~~~
HeyLaughingBoy
Then _deliberately_ set your standards low. I used to have a "bad art night"
where I'd create something, no matter how crappy, just to say I'd done it.

Perfect is the enemy of good; good is the enemy of good enough.

~~~
zaque1213
This is why I've enjoyed my time taking improv classes. I'm with a group of
other complete beginners and failure is encouraged. It has a beginning and
end, and whatever happens will only happen once ever. I go home with a sense
of completion and accomplishment, but I don't have the feeling of having to
show anyone else for validation.

------
rangibaby
The first half of the article has a lot of wisdom.

The second half reminds me of well meaning people who make things worse by
trying to help. "Just (go jogging, do something creative drink vegetable
shakes)"

I would if I could damn it! lol

~~~
flippmoke
There is a very large difference between clinical depression and situational
depression. The ideas and suggestions of those who have suffered from
situational depression are often not very helpful for those who suffer from
clinical depression. I think this article is clearly about situational
depression, but I don't think people often know there is a difference.

~~~
nzjrs
I think the article doesn't know the difference...

~~~
yellowapple
The article thinks it knows the difference (by trying to distinguish
depression from ordinary "sadness"), but then seems to fail its own test.

------
empath75
As someone who has periodic depressive episodes, if you're capable of leaving
the house to go to a DJ class, you're probably already over the worst of it.

"Just go do x" sort of has a "Get off the couch" pre-requisite that needs to
be satisfied.

~~~
magic_beans
There are days I can't even leave my bedroom.

~~~
nbardy
Try meditating. My favorite way to meditate is outside sitting up, but on the
days were I struggle to even get of bed I'll start meditating right there and
try and work my way to the floor and then sitting up. It's not about doing it
right, well, in certain positions or any. Start trying to bring your attention
to your breath until you feel like you can work your way out of bed to the
floor and then upright.

I've also found bike riding can be modified in a similar way. Throw on a
hoodie even if its hot out. This allows you to put your head down and your
hood up and generally ignore the world. Even when its hot out, its normal
enough to wear a hoodie to work up a sweat". Bike riding also works at low
enough speeds you can do it in a very apathetic manner(I find it easier than
walking.) You don't have to work hard, just getting a little motion starts
blood-flow and can provide a small lift. For me its about finding the easiest,
simplest, way to provide some sort of lift to start the day and then hopefully
you can snowball it.

------
a_brawling_boo
I feel like what happened to the author epitomizes the experience of a
generation that graduated in the year or two right before the crash of 2008.
The first round of layoffs obviously disproportionately effected people that
were just starting off their careers at that time (of course other groups were
disproportionately hit hard as well). It happened to me being about a year
into my career as I was still feeling my way around. It happened to many of my
friends as well, and was especially hard on the group of folks that didn’t
have the fortune to have gone into the IT field. And once you are out of work
for a year or two when the recovery started happening, the resume’s of people
fresh out of college look more attractive than the out of work ‘lazy
millennial’ which only compounded the problem. Having facebook made it easier
to kind of see what was going on with the larger crowd of acquaintances that I
maybe would not have explicitly kept track of and though its hard to compare
my experience against other cohorts I feel like depression and alcoholism are
more of a problem for the group I am describing than others.

In my case I feel lucky for the experience, I was only out of work for a few
months and learned that you should never trust the company you are working for
beyond the next paycheck. Never work on weekends with the promises you will be
‘paid back’ etc. You are ultimately working for yourself regardless if you are
salaried or contract.

~~~
npsimons
> I feel like what happened to the author epitomizes the experience of a
> generation that graduated in the year or two right before the crash of 2008.

Same could be said for many who were laid off in the crash of 2000/2001\. I
was one, and in many respects I'm still recovering from it. I'm not entirely
happy with how my career has gone since then, but I like where I live enough
that I'm not willing to change that, and I realize the tradeoffs.

Passion for your job is not necessarily bad; passion for your career is
better, and passion for the work itself is even better, but there are things
beyond work, and perspective is a powerful thing.

------
md224
A lot of people have pointed out how real depression makes it difficult to do
the very things that would help alleviate it. In some cases, medication can be
the crucial tool that helps you escape this cycle.

At the same time, I have mixed feelings about psychiatry. The field has done a
lot of good, but I also can't help but feel that modern antidepressants are
seriously lacking. They help some people, but they don't help everyone and can
take weeks or months to work; they can also backfire and make some people
suicidal. Prior to the 1950s, the common antidepressants were opiates and
amphetamines. These fell out of favor due to their addictive properties, but
in a way their addictiveness comes from how effective they are at rapidly
alleviating depression. If you found a pill that made you happy within an
hour, it's easy to see why you would want to keep taking it (and why you might
want to take more of it than you need).

It can be very difficult to create an antidepressant that makes you feel
better without also having addictive qualities. I often wonder if stigmatizing
opiates and amphetamines -- and replacing them with MAOIs, tricyclics, and
SSRI/SNRIs -- was a mistake. I'm not saying that they should be first-line
treatments, but it seems a little weird that we would rather give people ECT
(induced seizures) than psychoactive chemicals that reliably and rapidly
alleviate dysphoria.

I've personally found Kratom (a plant with opioid alkaloids) to be very
effective at relieving depression and anxiety, and of course states have
already moved to ban it. Sometimes it feels like all the useful drugs are
illegal, and we're left with these half-assed pharmaceuticals that have a low
potential for abuse precisely because they don't do anything useful.

Again, I think psychiatry has done a lot of good, and many medications _do_
help people. But desperate individuals are still committing suicide. We need
to do better.

~~~
throwaway1280
A bit of a digression, but possibly a useful one for anybody wondering if
amphetamines or other drugs might be an easy panacea for depression. The
answer may well be "yes, and then very much no."

I had my first (and so far only) ecstasy pill a year or so ago, and it was
wonderful - lit my brain on fire, caused me to experience the best music
festival I've ever been to, and gave me the kind of intense connection with my
friends I'd been missing from years of crippling depression. The following
week was hell, and caused slight but permanent damage to my family
relationships. It took a couple more weeks to recover to even my low standard
of 'normal'.

It was only later that I learned that ecstasy, amphetamines, LSD, and
basically anything that acts on the seratonin system can cause severe
depression lasting a week or more - and if you've already got depression, that
can get _really_ bad.

It's worth being careful with these things.

On the other hand - a similar experiment a couple of months later with a small
dose of synthetic psilocybin yielded a week of the best mood I've been in for
years, with no obvious side effects.

I'd love to see more research on these things. I'm probably not going to do
much more research on it using my own brain ;)

------
ohstopitu
The number of times I have that I felt I could do better - and then I start
working on it, get 80% done, but then I struggle with the next 20% - and then
almost burnout and give up and feel depressed because I'll never be able to do
anything in life, is just insane.

Then I start wondering - what is all of this for? and what's the entire point
of even living?

Talking to people does not help either (as it is, I'm not very social and then
to add to that, most friends would have a general response along the lines of
"oh wow...look at you and your problems", talking to parents is worse -
they'll tell me to pray and that's how life is - which I refuse to accept).

Distractions are the only thing that has helped me yet - I distract myself
with almost anything I can find - games, cars, tv shows, movies - just so I
don't think of anything else.

I write this because, as the author mentions "Make something" \- the will to
make something disappears. Which is why distractions help.

~~~
chocolatebunny
Why does living have to have a point?

I generally agree with your sentiment. Anything I do seems to fall so far
short of my expectations that it makes me depressed.

My mom used to say "when you reach for the moon, at least you'll climb a tree"
but to me the image of man on a tree, reaching out to the moon fills me with
hopelessness instead of inspiration.

~~~
shopkins
You're right it'd be sad. But if you climb a tree, you're not gonna reach out
to the moon; you're going to be a little out of breath from climbing, and
notice your lungs. You'll have put your arms and legs to use. You'll notice
something around the tree you didn't. And maybe then you'll do something else.

It's not actually about reaching the moon, but (I think) just doing
_something_. Because purpose and meaning can also come _after_ doing something
which previously had no apparent meaning.

------
6stringmerc
Very good front half. The second half ruffled my feathers with conflating
lifting other people's work via sampling and tossing flourishes in and
suddenly feeling like an authority on creativity. I say this as both a 100%
from scratch producer and frequent unsanctioned remixer of other people's
work. Glad it's therapeutic for him, genuinely so.

He's wrong though, not every human is "innately creative" in the sense that
there's an artist, singer, dancer, drummer, painter, sculptor, or didgeridoo
maestro hiding somewhere inside each of us if we only look. That's not fair.
Some people will go looking and find disappointment, much in the way I think
for some reason I'll never enjoy Calculus II or have much of an aptitude for
it. I just think false hope can lead to, eh, other depressive tailspins.

~~~
HeyLaughingBoy
I really think people do themselves a disservice by feeling that everything
they do has to meet some imaginary bar.

I'm a _terrible_ flute player. I go so long between practices that I sometimes
forget where my fingers go, but the simple joy in making notes with a wind
instrument makes me smile me every time. The "bar" is set at "just create
tunes" not "be a classical virtuoso."

------
dbg31415
Everyone is different, so I'm not going to knock the author for his views.

What I found over the years is that having a routine helps ward off
depression, and by definition almost making something isn't a routine it's a
one time event.

I would suggest something much simpler. Walking. Take as many steps as you can
every day. Log the results, but really you just want to do something to get
you moving so the results don't matter, I just like to compete against myself
and walking is something I can do just about any day.

Eventually you will feel like doing something other than walking, but there
may be weeks or months or you don't -- and that's OK too.

The point is just not to lie around letting the self-destructive thoughts
spiral and lock you in that place you don't want to be. But even when you're
there, you can still put one foot in front of the other...

------
rm_-rf_slash
Start with a daily journal. Write down the stuff you did and the thoughts you
had. Write down the things you want to get done tomorrow in the same journal
and cross them off if you accomplish them.

This way every day of your life will have significance. Even if the day was
dreary, mundane, sad, or even horrible, recording the memory records the
significance _because you lived it._

Journaling didn't cure me of depression, but it helped me build a ladder out
of my pit of despair.

~~~
a_lifters_life
+1 to this. I've found this is incredibly helpful in other facets of life -
for me, I like to know what I was thinking roughly last january

------
Waterluvian
I have about 100 things that are 5% finished. I would start a neat project and
have no willpower to take it anywhere. It was a depression feedback loop.

I discovered I was depressed because I felt like any time I wasn't actively
being "productive", I was wasting my life. I would come home from a long day
of engineering to jump into more engineering.

Over the holidays I vowed, as an experiment, to just do nothing "productive".
Maybe if I play video games and watch Netflix and be with my wife more, I'd
end up being more productive in the long run.

These past 3 weeks have been my happiest in years.

The part I'm still trying to figure out is how to convince myself of this
truth the next time I feel like leveling my Night Elf while watching Suits
with my wife is a waste of time that I could be using to make something really
cool.

------
codezero
When you are depressed, please try seeing a professional if you have the
time/money/insurance coverage.

We've made a condition that is largely out of your control a taboo and I don't
know why. It's ok to want to be functional, and people can help without
pretending like your depression/any other condition isn't real.

~~~
yellowapple
"We've made a condition that is largely out of your control a taboo and I
don't know why."

The reason "why" is (I suspect) because the people who don't understand
depression think that it's _not_ out of one's control. Thus, since they don't
experience the effects of depression, they insist that people with depression
will be magically cured if they just tried to be happy.

This approach to curing depression - much like trying to fix a severed limb by
pretending it's still there - is almost always destined to fail. When it does
inevitably fail, the non-depressed people - still failing to understand
depression - resort to blaming the depressed people for being depressed.

It's very unsurprising, after all, much like how it's unsurprising for a
physically-healthy person to take for granted the ability to use stairs, or
how it's very unsurprising for right-handed UX designers to assume that users
are right-handed (I'm looking at all y'all Android designers...), or how it's
very unsurprising for developers to brush aside bugs with their software
because it "works fine on my machine, so you're obviously just doing it wrong;
RTFM".

No, I _already_ Read The Fucking Manual™; you just suck at comprehending that
your exact situation is not everyone else's.

~~~
codezero
> how it's unsurprising for a physically-healthy person to take for granted
> the ability to use stairs

I broke my arm a year ago and I was surprised to see how much rote behavior I
relied on using my left hand for! It was pretty enlightening and I try to
think about what I take for granted from time to time.

~~~
yellowapple
I had a similar experience when I tore my ACL; I still don't _really_ feel
comfortable going down stairs (up is fine for some reason) even after a very
successful surgery.

------
Dachande663
Friends have worked for me[1]. I've tried travelling, running, working,
drinking, innumerable distractions. But having friends who can spot when I'm
falling and reach out, because I'll never ask for their help, has been
invaluable.

[1] [http://hybridlogic.co.uk/2015/11/the-
well/](http://hybridlogic.co.uk/2015/11/the-well/)

~~~
g00gler
You're a lucky human

~~~
Dachande663
I tell myself that every time. Without them I would be lost, so I try and make
it up to them in the periods I can.

------
fredley
I agree with this 100%. I find though, that the crippling part of the worst
bouts of depression can be the inability to get up and make something. The
impetus to create - usually strong - disappears.

~~~
kris-s
My strategy in those situations is to get out my phone, set a timer and say:
"I'm going to work on x for five minutes, if I still feel crappy after five
minutes I'll stop." That mental bargaining is bizarre in that I know its
irrational but it always works, five minutes is enough for me to get enough
'creative inertia'.

Making things isn't a panacea for me, when I'm done working I'll still
sometimes feel less than great, but it always helps.

~~~
syphilis2
I've had a similar experience in that getting started is a large barrier. I'd
like to see an article that bridges the gap between saying, "just do it," and
the understanding that someone who is depressed does not want to do anything.

I respond best to very specific instructions that don't require choices on my
behalf. For example, "do something active," won't move me. Instead I need,
"put on running shoes, go outside, run around the house three times." It's a
silly example, but the point is that I won't "do something active" but I will
"put on running shoes, ...".

~~~
vertex-four
I can fully understand that - I occasionally wind up asking other people to
tell me to do specific small things and it can help a lot with just getting
through the day.

------
sdegutis
> _The whole world deserves to experience what it feels like to be in your
> present moment._

I'm glad the author found something that helped him through depression.
Unfortunately this is not a silver bullet. It won't work for everyone, or even
every time depression hits.

There are many different activities you can try to help battle depression, and
they are definitely helpful, and creating things is one of them. But they'll
all fail without a key ingredient: realizing that you have to just do whatever
you have to do, simply because it's the right thing to do, regardless of your
emotions, or how intense they are, or lack of them.

If you live by that philosophy, you'll find yourself doing all the right
things, and for all the right reasons, and you may not ever get out of
depression, but it won't be crippling anymore.

A major difficulty with carrying this out as a person in tech though is that
we're inherently a little more existential and philosophical than others
because of the nature of programming being very intertwined with philosophy,
and we get paid more generally which means we usually have more time to think
too. Combine these with modern philosophy, and you usually have programmers
who see no real value in life other than to enjoy it and have a good time
(which explains why we love alcohol and sugary drinks like Red Bull so much),
and when that good feeling runs out, life feels pointless and empty for us,
because we can't find any motivation.

That also explains why there's a steady stream of philosophical and
motivational posts on HN's front page. Because usually that good feeling that
programming gives you doesn't last forever, so we try to look for
explanations, or we try to look for other motivators. It also explains why we
keep coming back to exciting topics on here, like bitcoin and the newest
programming languages or tutorials on Haskell monads (which nobody can ever
understand even though we know we should, so the closer we think we get, the
more excited we are).

I don't have numbers on how many programmers are turning to religion, but I
wouldn't be surprised if it was growing too, because we're looking for some
motivation to keep us moving forward after the excitement runs out (and it
always does, and never lasts very long).

~~~
md224
> realizing that you have to just do whatever you have to do, simply because
> it's the right thing to do, regardless of your emotions, or how intense they
> are, or lack of them.

Right, but how do you figure out what the "right thing to do" is? Especially
if you ignore emotional response as a guide?

~~~
sdegutis
Well that's the point of philosophy, isn't it? To figure out what we're
supposed to do. For some people, just living life going through the motions is
enough, and they never stop and ask this question. Other people keep bouncing
from philosophy to philosophy, or religion to religion, looking for something
that fits. Some of those people find something that works, and stick with it.
And of course others just kill themselves because they never can figure out an
answer that satisfies them, so life seems infinitely meaningless and they see
no reason to keep going.

------
yellowapple
To me, this comes across equivalently to "If you're depressed, start being
happy and productive". It ain't like there's an on/off switch in my brain
labelled "start being a productive member of society".

I'm not sure if I'd call what I experience "depression" (a doubt that makes me
suspect it might very well be actual depression, but I know better than to
pull a Freud and try a self-diagnosis), but whatever it is, it boils down to a
finite state machine where the only transitions are "feel worthless for being
unproductive" and "be unproductive because you're worthless". There ain't any
breaking out of that sort of loop, at least not easily.

------
benevol
(Especially!) if your government doesn't give you access to a therapist or if
you don't want to suffer side-effects due to anti-depressants, then do :

1\. Mindful meditation [free] -> Daily practice (30+ minutes)

John Kabat-Zinn [0] masters the link between science and meditation and has
published very valuable books (including guided/audio meditation exercises)
[1]. There are a couple of scientific studies which prove effectiveness [2]
[3].

2\. LSD [$5-10/dose + $25/multi-use test kit] -> One-time experience (every 6
months max.)

LSD however requires one to literally read/understand/know everything about
the substance before applying it (minimum literature: "The psychedelic
explorer's guide" by Fadiman). Also, order a test kit and test before you
ingest. Certain "edge cases"/people should not try it and educating yourself
about everything will allow you to decide if it's a good idea in your case or
not. In addition, you may be able to access your spiritual dimension, which
increases quality of life even further (it is less immediate with meditation).

You may combine micro-dosing LSD with meditation for accessing the meditative
state easier (it's quite a challenge for depressed people).

[0] [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jon_Kabat-
Zinn](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jon_Kabat-Zinn)

[1]
[https://thepiratebay.org/torrent/4180277/Mindful_Way_Through...](https://thepiratebay.org/torrent/4180277/Mindful_Way_Through_Depression_-
_Guided_Meditation_Practices)

[2] [http://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2011/01/eight-weeks-
to...](http://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2011/01/eight-weeks-to-a-better-
brain)

[3] [http://www.vox.com/2015/8/27/9214697/meditation-brain-
neuros...](http://www.vox.com/2015/8/27/9214697/meditation-brain-neuroscience)

~~~
jes5199
There is good reason to be cautious with meditation while depressed.
Meditation helps people get some distance from their emotional reactions - but
depressed people are often already _unhealthily_ dissociated from their
emotional state, and mediation may exacerbate that rather than repair it.

I'm with you on the LSD thing, though.

~~~
benevol
True.

Meditation becomes rather unrealistic once your depression is past the
"moderate" level and has become "clinic" (strong), in which case either anti-
depressants (mostly with side-effects) or a well researched and full-blown LSD
experience can "jumpstart" your brain again (and therewith enable you to start
practicing meditation which then helps you avoid falling back into strong
depression).

------
g00gler
IME, it's hard to do anything when you're depressed. When I was seriously
depressed, I couldn't write code :(

Its my favorite hobby, I love creating things, but I often couldn't bring
myself to open the text editor or even open my laptop. When I did, I was
constantly distracted.

Honestly, I still love to code but I'm yet to find the same gusto even still,
when I'm markedly better but not feeling as secure as I was before.

I don't know how writers and other creatives can pull it off when they're
depressed, I know I'm much better at it when I'm feeling stable.

Ask HN: how have ya'll delt with depression, other than psychoactive drugs?

~~~
matchu
For me, I trick my brain with indirection.

When I'm just sitting around saying "am I happy yet?", I never am. It just
reinforces the depression by reminding me of the challenges. Happiness, in my
experience, is the sort of thing that I can't usually produce on demand.

But I _can_ set yourself up for success. I ask myself what tends to make me
happy, and then I make the hard decision to legitimately engage with it: I
challenge myself to be swept up in the moment, even though it _really_ seems
like I won't be.

For example, I generally find happiness by making progress on the things I'm
invested in. But, even though I _am_ invested in being happy, I can't just
dive into coding and expect it to work, because coding isn't actually what
makes me happy: coding helps me accomplish things I care about, and _that_
makes me happy.

So, first, I find a self-contained goal, like "I'm gonna work on this really
cool project _because_ it's really cool", or "I'm going to make progress in
this video game _because_ it challenges me to think in new ways". Fulfilling
this goal for its own sake, because I'm legitimately invested in it, is what
makes me happy. In order to succeed at happiness, I carefully choose a
different target, and focus on it instead.

That's what's been working for me recently, anyway.

------
overcast
When I'm feeling depressed, the last thing I want to do is jump up, and start
working on something. This sounds like advice written by someone who has never
been depressed. Like a skinny dude, telling a fat guy to stop eating.

------
costcopizza
Ooof. Like many of the previous comments, this "solve depression with
creativity" isn't for all.

I'm recovering from 2 years of clinical depression, and lemme tell you, trying
to write songs while you doubt every single goddamned thought, bone, and
instinct in you is a _bad_ idea.

Creativity requires a modicum of self-trust and curiosity. Major depression is
so mentally engulfing that there's no room for those two things.

------
pfortuny
Actually, when you are depressed you should seek some help. First.

Then we can talk.

~~~
parthdesai
As someone who was in OP's shoes literally, ( my 1st job was a 4 month
contract with an option to extend, which never happened) you tend to shut out
people. It just happens. I can't explain it why but it does. I consider myself
as a social person who can't live without friends, but i ended up just sitting
in my room. When i graduated and while i was working i could never imagine me
not going to gym but guess what, i hated going to gym. Heck i stopped going to
gym even though i was sitting at home all day. I can't explain why it happens
but it does.

~~~
SmkyMt
One of the core symptoms/phenomena of major depression is anhedonia - the
inability to experience pleasure.

It’s very difficult to _imagine_ what that would be like - until _you_
experience it. Hope you’ll seek out some effective help. It’s hard to dig out
all by oneself.

------
drewmol
So I texted this link to my mom and told her to read the comments, she's
struggled with depression her whole life, as have I, but thought her
experience and response might be insightful or interesting to some: (She's 60,
single, of Christian faith, and just got back from a year in Kenya/Madagascar
a few months ago. Last year, she quit her stressful job as CFO of a
construction company in Cleveland, Ohio and moved to Nirobi to volunteer in an
orphanage. After about 7 months the foundation who runs the project heard of
her accounting experience, and offered her a volunteer position setting up the
financial system for a new clinic in Madagascar being built by the Freedom
from Fistula foundation, which she took. She's back in Cleveland now, but
still remotely assisting in the payroll and accounting as they transition to
local Madagascar permanent employees handling the finances. She just started a
new position with a different local Cleveland construction company as she
plans/saves for retirement. Her new position is much less stressful, according
to her mainly due to the respect and treatment from the owner which she was
not afforded from her previous employer)

Her response: [Wow. I didn't read the article either but the comments are
really insightful. There is no "right" answer for everyone, but it's
reassuring to read that people who are susceptible to depression can
acknowledge it, find ways to fight it, and live well in spite of it. I think
that's much healthier than looking for a 'cure'. I believe that I will always
be the type of person who struggles with depression, but over the years God
has given me the coping skills to have a full and joyful life as who He
created me to be, not who other people think I should be. Does that make
sense?]

Note that I am not advocating nor denouncing a faith based approach here, but
as many here have recommended, I think openness to complete lifestyle changes
is something to seriously consider for those struggling.

As always, thanks for keeping these discussions civil, insightful and
constructive!

------
entropyneur
Fascinating how depression is one of the hottest topics in this community. Are
hackers particularly vulnerable to it? Or just particularly aware? Or is it
simply one of the next big issues entering the public mind?

~~~
SmkyMt
It touches each of us or someone near us:

"In 2015, an estimated 16.1 million adults aged 18 or older in the United
States had at least one major depressive episode in the past year. ...6.7% of
U.S. adults."

[https://www.nimh.nih.gov/health/statistics/prevalence/major-...](https://www.nimh.nih.gov/health/statistics/prevalence/major-
depression-among-adults.shtml)

------
mirimir
I have decades of experience with depression. Two insights have helped
greatly. One was noticing how I'm typically either on an upward emotional
spiral, or a downward emotional spiral. Maybe that's because I'm bipolar.
Anyway, as the article argues, I've found that it helps to make things. Or
more generally, to accomplish things. That's often enough to put me back on an
upward spiral.

In saying "accomplish things", I'm not focusing on the issue(s)/problem(s)/etc
that triggered the downward spiral. Those are often too difficult. Rather, I
find it useful to accomplish something that's easy, and enjoyable. Sometimes
that does involve making something, manually. Cooking. Repairing stuff.
Whatever.

The other insight is that emotions reflect what I'm thinking about. Part of a
downward spiral is thinking about what went wrong, how I screwed up, etc. And
also, thinking about all the previous times I've failed, what's wrong with me,
and how it's hopeless.

So I've trained myself to notice when I'm doing that. And now, that awareness
always brings a smile to my face. Because it's funny how someone would get
into such a stupid loop. Often there are epithets that come with that,
classics involving Jesus, chain-link fences, and razor wire ;)

------
nutate
next post in series:

When You Break Your Leg, Walk It Off

------
pmoriarty
I'd like to encourage anyone feeling depressed to take a good, hard look at
their diet and to consider the possibility that they lack some essential
nutrients.

I'm not saying that a poor diet or lack of nutrients will necessarily be the
only or even the main cause of depression, but these factors could have an
impact (sometimes a profound impact) on the severity or frequency of
depression.

For most of my life I've had a pretty poor diet, and while I knew diet could
affect one's mood, I really didn't realize how profound an effect it could
have until poor health recently forced me to make drastic changes in my diet
and to consider and study the potential effects of diet on mental and physical
health.

What I learned was that many, many nutrient deficiencies could have very
severe consequences on one's mental (not to mention physical) health --
including depression, dementia, and even death. Symptoms of a nutrient
deficiency are not always obvious, and some of them take a long time to
manifest -- so long that they kind of sneak up on you and you could almost
feel like what you're experiencing is "normal" or just the way you are (ie.
depressed, just because you have a negative outlook on life).

Once I improved my diet and started taking supplements for essential nutrients
which my diet still lacked, I felt so much better, and have had much more
energy than I'm used to, don't need as much sleep, and my mood and motivation
have dramatically improved.

I now firmly believe that many people who suffer mental issues, including
depression, may be malnourished or nutritionally deficient in some way. Taking
one's diet seriously, reading up on it, and improving it could really change
your life.

------
padseeker
There should be some distinction made between "I'm sad" and "I'm clinically
depressed".

I've had first hand experience where making something or doing something makes
me less sad. I've never been clinically depressed and those who are sometimes
can't get out of bed. Making something might not be solution for someone who
is clinically depressed.

------
JohnGoGoGo
I'm not sure whether if he experienced a true depression but this article
doesn't give any answers. Plus, it can be pretty harmful for those who don't
have any 'loved ones'. I'm a depressed student who don't have any friends nor
family to talk with. This article make me think I don't have any chances.
Anyway, it could help some.

------
laurex
While I believe depression has biological contributors, it's amazing how much
learning techniques to combat the mental spiral can do to help avoid
depression, along with the "maintenance" of proper sleep, food, and exercise.
It seems strange that learning "thinking techniques" can have such an impact
on "chemical imbalance," but in my experience, anyway, practicing these
techniques works better than drugs do for affecting chemically-connected
depression, though that may strike you as controversial. Two things that have
been helpful to me are Dr. David Burns's book Feeling Good
([https://feelinggood.com/books/](https://feelinggood.com/books/)) and
Marshall Rosenberg's Nonviolent Communication methods:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fmHVrkdzr8A](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fmHVrkdzr8A).

------
krrishd
The accuracy of this struck a chord; when I was at my lowest point during
depression one of the worst symptoms was that I no longer enjoyed what I
thought I liked (making things, in my case particularly with tech).

What helped me slowly find my way out of that place was forcing myself to do
those things regardless of whether I was perceiving enjoyment anymore + taking
on a new hobby (coincidentally music). It took a lot of time but the things
that made me enjoy it in the first place started to become more clear and I
got over that slump, with a new interest to show for it.

The depression certainly hasn't disappeared completely but the fear of losing
passion for certain things is more manageable given that I've gotten it back
before. Not to minimize the negative impact of depression but the
understanding of that fear has often pushed me harder towards progress than I
would have pushed myself under normal circumstances.

Might not be the standard experience but this post still this resonated with
me.

------
supervillain
Depression is nature and unescapable, you just have to bare it and build
endurance to lower the threshold of the stimulus that trigger it. It needs to
be running simultaneously with your other natural brain activities.

In 2011, I found a job of my dreams, but it ended in 2012, since then I began
to took jobs that I'm not comfortable and I do not like just to provide for my
family, it was hard and sad, and it lasted from 2012 to 2016. Now I'm happy I
have a new job that I'm very comfortable with.

Depression is not new to me, I've experienced it since childhood, teenage
period and throughout college. There's no OFF switch for it, the only way to
turn it off is build strength and endurance for it, sooner or later it it will
attack again, but it would be too weak to affect you.

~~~
mildbow
This.

A huge part of the problem is we think we need to be happy/succesfull/whatever
and any discomfort/pain is a existential problem.

It's not. It's life. It's got ups and downs. Don't let the downs get you too
down[ _]. Find joy when you can.

[_] This doesn't mean you have to just "be happy". But rather, recognize there
is a problem and actively try to get help so next time you are more resilient.

------
asciimo
Here's a popular track on his prolific SoundCloud account:
[https://soundcloud.com/treblesandblues/clear-skies-
ahead](https://soundcloud.com/treblesandblues/clear-skies-ahead)

------
dgudkov
When you're depressed find something you are truly enjoying. Sometimes it can
be a hobby like it was in the author's case. Depression is often caused by
forcing ourselves into doing something that we don't like. Up to the point
where we start forgetting what we like at all. Question "what do I like?"
stops having not just clear answer -- any answer at all! That's why strong and
stubborn people can be more susceptible to depression -- they can be
exceptionally good at doing something they don't enjoy. If you find yourself
depressed -- find something that you enjoy. Honestly, truly and deeply.

------
startupsco
One of the things that helped me was teaching myself a new skill. Finishing a
Udemy course and knowing that I have a new (and marketable) skill is a great
feeling that encourages me to find projects to apply it towards.

------
keeptrying
When you are depressed

1\. talk to people who care about you - face to face at every meal if possible
but at least at every lunch if not. Be around other people and interact with
them. Join communities where performance is not needed but people are thankful
if you just show up.

2\. do small tiny things. Eg: buy and cook eggs and eat them, clean your
apartment. As you do slightly bigger things, do things for other people. Send
$10 to a charity online or to a watsi patient.

Its a constant struggle and its hard as hell. But small tiny steps and support
from others help a lot.

~~~
agumonkey
Two things I've noticed that are surprisingly small but significant:

\- leaving your home \- talk to people

They switch your mind off some inner loop. As an ex loner that loop was my
favorite mode, but abused you end up grumpy, acid, somehow depressed.

Just being on the move changes that. And talking to people even short polite
chit chat will feed your brain with .. I don't know .. negative entropy ?
external energy that refull your mind in more efficient ways that most your
lonely activities, even those you love (music, painting, reading,
programming).

------
michaelkeenan
This seems like good advice, but it's based on one example. If you want
depression advice from a psychiatrist who's reviewed the academic literature
on depression, try Things That Sometimes Help If You Have Depression from
Slate Star Codex: [http://slatestarcodex.com/2014/06/16/things-that-
sometimes-h...](http://slatestarcodex.com/2014/06/16/things-that-sometimes-
help-if-youre-depressed/)

------
127
I wonder how much depression is mislabeled. When you are sad, it's a natural
state. It's not something that you're supposed to medicate. What you need is
healthy human relationships and a sense of meaning and importance.

I see a strong incentive to mislabel sadness as depression, as it releases the
society and the individuals living in that society from the responsibility of
actually taking care of people who aren't doing so well socially.

------
tn13
When you are depressed seek HELP. Help from people qualified to provide it
first. None of the internet advice, friends, family etc. are alternative to
this HELP.

------
payamb
Bring nature to your own place, Thats what helps me. I do gardening to help
myself.

Just seeing them growing everyday, Give me some kinda of hope and makes me
feel i'm not alone.

Its so easy to start with and so rewarding, Just get some pots and soil and
start planting your own vegetable or flowers! I promise you'll be happiest
person on earth when your chilli fruits!

You can try to make your own coffee/tobacco or _medicinal herb_ if you have
enough space!

~~~
camtarn
Heh. That's fine until the plants die :P Living things can be tricky
sometimes.

It's good advice in general though. Having plants that depend on you to do
something - even if that something is so simple as watering them - can mean
the different between doing nothing on a day and doing one useful thing. And
perhaps that one useful thing is enough to not have to write that day off as
useless.

------
huherto
Great insight. I never thought of it this way. Perhaps this is the best
justification for art education. It is not about producing beautiful objects.
Perhaps it is about our mental health. More like meditation. It is the process
that gives us value, regardless of whether other people are willing to pay for
the art that we make.

~~~
drinkjuice
As someone who started out messing around with trackers in like '98 with
FastTracker 2, and who hasn't made anything I would call a "real song" to this
day, but spend hundreds and thousands of hours on it, I can absolutely
confirm. I wrote lyrics that were decidedly not about making beatiful
objects.. more like a process to clean myself, which produced dirty rags. The
really mean and ugly ones I deleted after I had outgrown them, the rest I
still love dearly even as they make me cringe from tip to toe haha. Art is a
bit like dancing, it's awesome when people share it, but it would be tragic if
they never did it just for themselves.

------
vorotato
To all the people who are posting "if you are sad" answers, you're wrong, and
woefully uninformed. Depression is not sadness. I'm going to repeat this,
depression is not sadness. The article is describing a component of cognitive
behavioral therapy. Your "opinions" are ignorant, please stop.

------
Learn2win
A little bit of smile, a little bit of patience, and a little bit of self-
compassion brighten me up.

------
elihu
I have a theory about why some people create art.

When you're happy and things are going well, there's no need for any external
purpose for your life because living and experiencing it are their own
purpose.

When things are going badly and you aren't happy, then you tend to start
looking for ways to justify your existence, like maybe your life kind of sucks
but it still has some higher-level meaning because you can still make
something beautiful or that makes other people's lives better. I think a lot
of good art came about in this way, and I think it's usually good for the
creator of the art as well as the rest of us who are enjoying the things they
created.

Helping people directly rather than through art is another thing that a person
might do, but that's harder, especially when you're going through hard times
yourself.

Of course it is quite possible to be prevented from creating art by
depression, in which case other ways of dealing with it (such as seeking
professional help) may be in order.

------
leptoniscool
Bacteria in the gut can also influence depression:
[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4662178/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4662178/)

------
Tomte
This sounds alarmingly like "don't be a baby and just get over it".

I feel good for the author that he found a way to battle his depression, but
it's more of a luck thing, not a repeatable treatment.

------
invious
What about being depressed that you can never be with any of the most
beautiful women, whose model photos consume you when you open Instagram

------
partycoder
When you are depressed your reward seeking behavior (dopamine) basically shuts
down so it's really hard to get excited and do something.

------
HillaryBriss
> Talk to your loved ones. Don’t be afraid of judgment. You’ve already
> encountered the worst of it: your own self-criticisms.

so true man, so true

------
aphextron
Realizing that you are feeling depressed and that you don't have to feel that
way is the first step. Eventually you learn to recognize it and analyze the
underlying cause. For me it's usually just something physiological that's been
thrown off. Eating, sleeping, etc. However, coding is always a sure fire way
to clear the mind. I've found that I am _always_ happy when caught up in
coding something.

------
Question1101
To me it seems like depression is a mindset issue.

After all if depression was caused by external factors only wouldn't all poor
people, ugly people, disabled people be depressed? Didn't the majority of the
world always live in poverty? How would we have come so far if most people
were depressed?

So the question is how can you truly adopt a positive mindset once you got a
negative one? Doesn't that feel like self-deception?

~~~
g00gler
My question to you is, how can you change your unconscious thoughts and
behaviors?

Think of this in relation to thought crime, from 1984 by George Orwell. You
say to yourself, "Okay, I am depressed. I have thoughts of suicide and in
general, I am miserable 24/7\. Let's stop"

What do you do when, untriggered, a mistake from your past or even a happy
memory of what once was comes to the front of your mind and you begin to dwell
on it?

Do you tell yourself "Okay, stop thinking about this now"?

It doesn't really work like that, especially when you don't have someone to
talk to.

I've struggled with these things for some time, largely alone. For me and a
lot of people I've come across, depression isn't just sadness, or immense
sadeness.

Depression is hopelessness, dread, [lots of] anxiety, self loathing and
loneliness.

Depression is wanting so badly for someone to help but the few that are
willing can't since you're unable to articulate what you need because you
don't even know.

Depression makes you feel isolated and different from all of the people around
you, forces you to be withdrawn. You want to break out so badly but you can't,
and at worst people (friends and strangers alike) actively avoid you because
you seem so off. Conversations are ended abruptly, odd looks are given, and
that just adds to all the stress.

------
temp246810
There was a post here with someone recommending LSD, just curious what
happened to it.

Did the mods delete it or did the user?

~~~
detaro
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13366300](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13366300)
?

~~~
temp246810
Thanks, just missed it I guess.

------
Dowwie
I've found DIY restoration and home improvement therapeutic. It's time
consuming but rewarding.

------
andrei_says_
"When you can't make yourself do anything, do this thing that we recommend."

------
bananabill
I don't feel like it

------
emjoes1
For me making something is like a drug. I have a lot of fun working on it and
even immersing myself but after a while the fun runs out. If I finish what I
am working on I feel awesome then almost immediately sad. Then I have to find
something else.

------
steveplace
Just make sure not to share what you made on hackernews

------
Question1101
I think being able to draw would really make me happy but I just can't make it
through those countless hours of deliberate practice I would need to put in
before I can produce any worthwhile art.

~~~
alimw
That's crazy talk. How good would you have to be before your work was
"worthwhile" enough to make you happy?

~~~
Question1101
It would just have to not look ridiculous.

~~~
alimw
It doesn't take long at all to teach the basic tricks of how to draw. Maybe
find a short course of evening classes at your local college? And have fun :)

Edit: I hope that doesn't sound patronising, I am assuming you are a beginner
but of course you might just be someone with impossibly high standards

------
revskill
Or we can just automate more. The more automation, the more time to explore
our inner self. I must say, we work hard to avoid all kind of depression, not
to suffer from it.

------
remymock93
Eckhart Tolle Force is strong with this one

------
chx
And what do you do when you are depressed because you are banned from making
something you love most?

------
andrewclunn
When selecting the thing to make, please avoid the child option. Making a kid
to cure your depression is not a good idea.

------
st3v3r
Yeah, just make something. And while you're at it, stop being so sad. Be
awesome instead.

------
tdkl
1986 - I feel sad. Well that's life.

2016 - I feel sad. It must be that I'm depressed, let me read more about
depression so I'll know even how I fail in life, because everyone around me on
social media is so much successful and happy.

~~~
smacktoward
This is unfair. It's more like:

1986 - I feel sad. Well that's life. _Kills self six weeks later_

In other words, it's not that people today are getting treatment for things
that people in the past just knew how to live with; people today are getting
treatment for things that people in the past _died_ from. People drank
themselves to death, or ODed on drugs, or put a rope around their neck, all
because they couldn't calm the storm raging inside their head.

~~~
mildbow
What bullshit (the "I feel sad. Well that's life. Kills.. " triggered me :))

Feeling sad is part of life. Dealing with it requires practice. I think people
did it a lot better before our age of needing to be happy all the time or
worry something was wrong with us.

~~~
mustacheemperor
I don't really grasp how people who have only ever felt sad and have not
experienced clinical depression are so quick to assume that only the former
exists. Like, if you'd only ever had normal headaches and met someone with
cluster headaches, would you just insist to them that their head just hurts
and they need to deal with it?

~~~
mildbow
Sorry my comment comes off as "just feel better".

But, as someone who was actually depressed and that due to things that in
retrospect don't really matter, I do think that if I had been more resilient I
would have had an easier time.

------
zenpusher
We are all slaves to dopamine. The higher the karma a user on HN has, the more
enslaved he or she probably is ;)

More seriously, making things and having a sense of accomplishment was one of
the dopamine-triggers I used in my new system for breaking bad habits:
[https://repla.xyz/](https://repla.xyz/)

