

Java as we know it is over. Time to fork? - auxbuss
http://gregluck.com/blog/archives/2010/10/is-it-time-to-fork-java/

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wccrawford
I've noticed a trend. When people sit around and talk about forking a project,
it doesn't happen.

When someone forks a project, there's a chance it'll take off.

You can't convince someone else to fork something. If they had the drive to
fork it, they wouldn't need convincing in the first place.

~~~
rudasn
I was watching a video on TED the other day about this phenomenon. If you talk
about your goals your brain releases the chemicals that are needed to make you
feel that you have actually done something. You "feel good" about doing
something even if you haven't actually done it. Having already felt good about
your self you have little to no motivation to start doing it.

In contrast, if you don't talk about your goals then you really try to achieve
them because you know at the end you will "feel good".

~~~
krschultz
That sounds interesting, which TED talk was it?

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dho
He probably meant this talk:
[http://www.ted.com/talks/lang/eng/derek_sivers_keep_your_goa...](http://www.ted.com/talks/lang/eng/derek_sivers_keep_your_goals_to_yourself.html)

~~~
rudasn
yes, that's it

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keyist
I'm surprised that IcedTea (<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Icedtea> ) has not
been mentioned yet.

From the link:

"On June 2008, it was announced that IcedTea6 (as the packaged version of
OpenJDK on Fedora 9) has passed the Technology Compatibility Kit tests and can
claim to be a fully compatible Java 6 implementation."

I'm not a Java developer -- is there something about the project that makes it
less appealing than a fork from scratch?

~~~
j_baker
My personal anecdotal experience from using it on Ubuntu is that Iced Tea
isn't as reliable or compatible with Java code as the Sun java. Maybe that's
changed recently?

~~~
technomancy
Definitely not true in my experience. The only difference I've noticed is that
the Sun one forces you to manually download some jars in order to get strong
crypto because of some outdated US legal BS, while openJDK bundles them.

~~~
crosvenir
The last time I used the openJDK on ubuntu was version 9.10 and then JGoodies
LaF looked abysmal. Well, by abysmal I mean that the openJDK inserted spacing
between most components and the sun JDK looked consistent with the rendering
on Windows and AIX.

~~~
technomancy
Hmm; I haven't done any GUI work with OpenJDK, but now that you mention it I
do remember some caveats about the font rendering engine being one of the
pieces that they were having difficult tracking down provenance on for open-
sourcing.

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rwl
Wouldn't a fork be running smack into a patent suit? I confess to not
understanding the Java ecosystem _at all_ , but I do know that Oracle just
sued Google over their alternative Java implementation...how could a fork
avoid this?

~~~
btilly
If you start with existing GPL code from Oracle, then you have an implicit
patent license. But your code has to be under the GPL.

If you meet the "Technology Compatibility Kit", then you're an official Java
and have a license. Unfortunately Sun was not in the habit of giving access to
the TCK to people who were doing things they did not like with Java, and there
is no reason to believe that Oracle will be more generous.

Google's problem was that they didn't want GPLed code (wouldn't work for the
vendors who want to customize Android), and Sun wouldn't give them access to
the TCK.

So anyone can create a GPLed fork, or someone who already has access to the
TCK (eg IBM) can fork as long as they maintain complete compatibility with the
TCK.

~~~
bad_user
The GPLv2 patents provision is rather weak, and it is extremely unclear if
derivate works of OpenJDK are protected.

In case you haven't realized it, Oracle's intent is to effectively kill open-
source Java.

~~~
joe_the_user
It would be extremely difficult to sue someone who for patent infringement
when they were following the letter of a GPL _you_ issued. The law still
involves a modicum of common sense. Stepping up to a judge and saying "yeah, I
did say he could do that but I had an extra secret thing written on my
shirtsleeve saying he couldn't" just doesn't wouldn't fly well however you try
to reword it...

IANAL YMMV of course...

The weird system of Microsoft-Novel is closer to the way a sinister patent
take-over could work, though; a third party who never GPL'd any code walks in
and claims everyone owes them royalties, maybe. They then play divide and
conquer, with the aid of some shills in the audience.

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dminor
Oracle hasn't canceled JavaFX - they're discontinuing JavaFX _script_. JavaFX
is going to live on through an API (third time's the charm for a Java UI
API?).

~~~
seltzered
Still, having a separate markup/scripting language for the UI layout has
become an established paradigm for anyone writing apps that need to run in a
browser.

side note: this action I guess has prompted the creation of "visage"
<http://steveonjava.com/accouncing-visage/> as a JavaFX scripting alternative.

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whatajoke
What is wrong with <http://harmony.apache.org/> ?

It is a from scratch implementation of the JVM. And is backed by IBM AFAIK.

~~~
wmf
What's wrong is that Oracle won't (ever) allow Harmony to be called Java
Compatible™, even though it is.

~~~
whatajoke
> What's wrong is that Oracle won't (ever) allow Harmony to be called Java
> Compatible, even though it is.

The same can be said of a fork. It will not be allowed to run the Java test
suite (I forget the name) and certify itself Java.

Edit : Typo

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strebler
Can't we just get IBM to make J9 free & open? Last I checked, they supported
more OSes than Sun did and the VM was pretty speedy too.

~~~
ShabbyDoo
I wonder how encumbered it is with Oracle contractual restrictions? Didn't IBM
at one point license Sun code to build its own version of the JVM?

~~~
whatajoke
Much of high performance modern VMs (not just JVM) are built on Self project
and StrongTalk acquisiotion by Sun. I think Oracle would have quite a few key
patents due to this.

Though the Visual works contribution to VM technology cannot be discounted.
And it is owned by IBM. So probably IBM and Oracle will not use these patents
against each other.

~~~
whatajoke
The excellent research done under Jikes project in IBM cannot be forgotten. It
to contributed to IBM's patent portofolio.

Bad to reply to own comment, but can't edit it anymore.

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po
The only part of this that makes me think that a fork will have to happen is
the fact that IBM, HP, Google, RedHat, etc… have _got_ to be more than a
little uncomfortable with Oracle in the driver's seat.

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zephyrfalcon
It seems the Lava name has already been taken:
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lava_%28programming_language%29>

~~~
Setsuna
Lava = Libre Java?

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lukev
Time to fork? Yes.

Practical to fork? I hope so, but the pessimist in me doubts it.

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retroryan
Why fork? Just go with Scala! <http://www.scala-lang.org/>

~~~
mseebach
Why the downvotes? That's a perfectly reasonable suggestion.

Java is attractive because it's mostly sane, and it's backed by The Enterprise
in a big way. Sure, if Google, RedHat, HP and IBM gets behind a fork, it could
work - but I can't really see what RH and HP has to gain there. They both need
to keep support for Oracle Java to stay relevant. IBMs primary interest in
Java is consulting - and the consulting-money going to stay with Oracle Java.
Google has a lot of stuff in Java, but they're by no means married to it,
except for Android/Dalvik. I'd bet they're more keen to push something like Go
(or even Scala for that matter).

But without the enterprise backing, Java is just a pretty dated language.
Scala, on the other hand, is a very modern language by most measures, _and it
will integrate seamlessly with your Java legacy stuff_.

Sure, it doesn't solve the problem of depending on the JVM, but if Oracle
kills Dalvik, getting a good open source drop-in replacement to the JVM is not
going to happen. If not, well, then we have Dalvik :)

~~~
jaaron
Depending on the JVM is a bigger issue than you suggest. Without an
unencumbered open source JVM, any languages which rely on the JVM will
ultimately be dependent on Oracle. Bugs can't get fixed, new platforms can't
be ported to, improvements to the VM can't be added.

Jumping to Scala or any other language is just ignoring the more fundamental
issues that have _always_ made a proper open source JVM important, regardless
of Java's corporate owner.

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davidw
Apache Harmony is something to look at, although of course the Oracle/Android
patent suit seems like it might have implications for Harmony.

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barnaby
I doubt that even the best quality fork can compete with Oracles sales
machine, no matter how badly they ruin Java. Even if all the great and
passionate Java developers leave to become Python programmers, Java will still
be the most common language out there.

~~~
Tyrannosaurs
On top of that Java has the brand.

Programmers may not feel positive about it but it's embedded in a lot of large
organisations, many of whom will, at the management level, be perfectly happy
with the Oracle acquisition. They won't see the need or the appeal to move to
something else until there is a strong incentive to do so.

Against that sort of entrenchment programmers will struggle to influence
things a whole load in a lot of Java's key markets.

~~~
dkarl
Users have little obligation with respect to the Java trademark. My
organization can use the word "Java" internally to remind our execs that we're
doing the safe, boring thing, and there's no problem if we actually deploy
Lava or Fava or Cava (my pick) to our servers. As long as we don't publicly
advertise that our services rely on Java technology (and who does that
anymore?) we're free to call anything Java internally.

If Oracle targets an "OMG Don't Get Caught Using Fake Low-Quality Java"
marketing campaign at our upper management, we'll talk to management ourselves
and paint Oracle as losers who lost their grasp on everything but the
trademark and no longer offer the premier, industry-standard implementation
that we require.

~~~
nl
Oracle doesn't do marketing like that.

Oracle doesn't care what you do, unless you are in their target market:
enterprise software.

If you are, then no amount of talking to management will trump the potential
of their talk with management: "Sorry, you are using an unsupported
configuration. Your 500K support contract is now void, you will no longer
receive critical updates and your licence will expire at the end of the month.
Good luck getting your data out before then. Oh, BTW, if you keep your
database running after the licence is expired then we'll sue you"

You'll never win taking Oracle on head on like that.

OTOH, they are very vulnerable to _new_ applications that just happen to be
written in Cava on a JVM-derived virtual machine.

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16s
Using the name Lava would surely get you sued. Only one char difference. The
trademark holder would be all over that. NcDonalds can't sell BigNacs and get
away with doing so.

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Hexstream
What about: let Java die and let something better take its place?... But it's
true I live in an alternate reality.

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shareme
The author forgot that java is already forked and supported by many JCP
members..

The project is called Harmony an dis under the Apache banner supported by such
JCP members as IBM and many OHA members as well.

Given Oracle's planned moves they will end up killing java on Mobile except
for Android and Java on enterprise except for the open source stacks that
support Harmony's use..

Also note that the harmony project does use off-shoots of the JVM research IBM
invested in as well..

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mjv
Too bad, Minecraft just made me respect java a little bit!

