
Review: Purism Librem13 laptop - qplex
http://www.davidrevoy.com/article341/review-purism-librem13-laptop
======
gkya
I'm surprised that people call this a weak laptop. Clicking through to the
article I thought it would have 2-4GB RAM and a weak CPU. It has 16G of ram
and a very recent 3.10GHz Intel CPU. What are you doing on your laptops? This
is a deeecent laptop and it is 13". The software you use is crappy if you can
choke this machine w/o running a bunch of VMs concurrently.

~~~
nookoking
I'm surprised at this entire comment thread.

> Dual core is pretty weak

> I had 16 GB of ram in 2010 and it was not even a top computer at the time

> It has 16G of ram and a very recent 3.10GHz Intel CPU. What are you doing on
> your laptops? This is a deeecent laptop

What exactly are all of you people doing with your laptops? I'm running an old
W500 Thinkpad at 2.8Ghz dual-core, 4GB DDR2, and a 500GB HDD. The only times
this machine has struggled was when I was using a memory-leaking software
(Firefox, etc.) or one that tried to load a _whole_ large file into memory
instead of chunks.

If I need to work with _heavy_ graphics I can stick an eGPU into the PCI
express or an FPGA if I'm doing specialized calculations.

But besides that, I don't understand why anyone needs all this gear.

~~~
0xcde4c3db
> What exactly are all of you people doing with your laptops?

C/C++ project builds. Losing two cores just about doubles build times, and
template-heavy C++ code makes the compiler want gigs of RAM all to itself. In
principle I _should_ do this on a desktop or server, but IT isn't on board
with that.

~~~
gkya
Do you do _full recompilations_ all the time? Don't you use incremental
builds? If yes, the compilation time should only rarely be a problem. But
reading people's comments I feel like there are many projects out there using
a shell script like "gcc -c a.cpp; gcc -c b.cpp; ...; gcc -o prog *.o" out
there.

~~~
nine_k
Changing something closer to the root of a large dependency tree triggers a
lot of recompilation. The lack of real modules and reliance of `#include` in
C++ makes dependency graphs larger than they could be.

~~~
gkya
Not necessarily. Say I'm editing "bob.cc", and in the mean time edited
"common.h" #included by many many files. While I'm editing "bob.cc", there is
no need for me to rebuild the entire project until I want to see how it links
to everything else (which can be postponed quite a bit if you have some
tests); so I either run "make bob.cc" or "make test_bob.cc && ./test_bob". I
don't know much C++ and all this is theoretical, but I think this is the ideal
workflow with C/C++ development, and this is why incremental builds are
useful, especially if the code is nicely separated into testable units.

------
kyleperik
I bought this computer for work just recently. Like he said, I really
appreciate how easy it is to open it up and modify it. I'd add that it's very
lightweight and small, but has specs just as good as my old MacBook Pro.

Great laptop for travel and customizability.

~~~
bo1024
I really like these aspects as well, and would add battery life as a feature
(I get 6-8 hours of typing+browsing with the brightness not cranked).

Some are disappointed that it's not a superpowered battlestation, but that's
not what it's designed to be. It's really good in its niche.

------
buu700
Librem 13 would without a doubt be my next laptop if it had a >=Retina screen,
USB-C†, and ideally a form factor as close to the current-gen MBP as possible.

I think they have a real opportunity to win over the group that doesn't like
Windows and is getting increasingly scared off from macOS >= High Sierra, but
not if it means a downgrade in any aspect of our current hardware.

† (Edit): I see that it actually does have one USB-C port, but I'm thinking
more along the lines of dropping all non-C USB ports and charging over USB-C.

~~~
bitexploder
As amazing as Retina/HiDPI is, is it really worth trading "freedom" for? I
have found high quality traditional 96ish DPI displays are really quit fine.
Objectively, what does HiDPI provide? Do you write code faster? Do you write
better words? I don't mean this sarcastically, but in a positive inquisitive
manner. HiDPI is one of the few real innovations in the last decade. And yet,
as cool as it is it doesn't add much as far as I can tell.

I went to a Dell. 32 GiB RAM. Xeon Quad Core. Heavy. But great.

~~~
leadingthenet
> As amazing as Retina/HiDPI is, is it really worth trading "freedom" for?

I think for most people that answer would be a resounding "Yes". Me included,
unfortunately.

~~~
briandear
If am not even sure what “freedom” I am giving up. I don’t care about
upgrading old machines, I don’t even care about modifying the OS. I just care
about getting work done quickly and with a nice experience. Freedom for me is
not having to think about the Linux kernel or carefully inspecting software
licenses to be sure I’m not polluting “freedom.” I like MIT and Apache
licensed open source software — but the almost religious fervor surrounding
the Richard Stallman fringe of the tech community wears on me like the
persistent, yet infuriating good nature of Mormon missionaries.

I want the freedom to just get my work done without having to consider an
ideological struggle each day. I care more about WHAT I create and less about
the purity of the tools upon which I create. I submit pull requests for open
source software I use and I am happy to by licenses/donate (such as Sidekiq
Pro, or donating to the Vapor team,) but beyond that, I’m not going to try to
perform tech gymnastics or compromises to make some “free” computer work
“almost as good as a Mac.” You know what IS actually as good as a Mac? A Mac.

Lots of respect for the FOSS folks; I appreciate your mission despite not
sharing the obsession.

------
cobbzilla
I really like the Purism design aesthetic, but hardware-wise they just don't
pack enough punch for me to work with.

Last year I ended 10+ years of developing on macos because their latest "pro"
edition had a weak CPU and didn't support more than 16G memory (don't even ask
me about the TouchBar).

After some research, I went with a quad-core System76 with 32G memory (could
have gone to 64) and 4TB SSD. The laptop is an absolute beast for software
development; various compile/build times were cut nearly in half (versus my
previous MBP), it is a screamer. While I do love it, I must admit it's pretty
heavy.

If Purism made a quad-core laptop with 32G+ memory, I'd be very interested.

~~~
ekianjo
> If Purism made a quad-core laptop with 32G+ memory, I'd be very interested.

Seems like it's difficult to get 32G+ RAM on recent Lenovo models. There's not
so many options out there actually.

~~~
Joeri
It's the same reason why the macbook pro tops out at 16 GB, most laptops use U
series CPU's and optimize for thinness.

The U series CPU's are typically matched with (soldered) LPDDR3 for battery
life and thinness, which maxes out at 16 GB. The Xeon and H series CPU's are
matched with DDR4 for performance and therefore can go past 16 GB. AFAIK the U
series CPU's with 32 GB will come with the cannon lake generation with LPDDR4
support, which should start shipping this year.

Lenovo used to sell the T470p which marries an H series CPU with a small (but
not thin) form factor, but since the 8th gen U series chips now also have 4
cores / 8 threads (basically matching the 7th gen H series for performance)
they've silently dropped that line, opting for a simpler line-up based on U
series across the board, topping out at 16 GB in many cases.

~~~
noir_lord
I bought my t470p last year (2560x1440 variant) and its the best software dev
laptop I’ve ever bought.

Damn shame imo their won’t be a t480p.

~~~
Joeri
I have a 32gb t460p (skylake) myself and it is still an awesome machine. All
day battery life during normal web dev with the extended battery pack, but it
can also handle a 20 gb ram hadoop vm without bogging down, and bioshock
infinite ran nicely on the nvidia graphics. It has just one real compromise:
it looks very dated.

It seems they intend the t480 series to be its successor, now that you can get
quad core cpu’s with dedicated graphics in that line.

~~~
noir_lord
Yep but the P was special because they put the insane HQ's in, the new 15w
Quads are impressive but still way behind the 35w in raw crunch power.

That was the thing I liked about the T470p for performance it was the last
step before doubling the price and getting a bigger heavier P-series.

The amount of power they put into 14" that stays cool under heavy load was
damn impressive.

------
tombh
I didn't see a price in the article. But there's a page on the Purism website
to calculate prices:
[https://puri.sm/shop/librem-13/](https://puri.sm/shop/librem-13/) Judging
from that, I'd guess the model in the article is about $1700USD.

------
sowbug
Aargh, just noticed the keyboard violates another one of my cardinal usability
rules: everything directly below the Enter key must be a Shift key. This one
invented a need for a second Fn key and then fulfilled it by taking away some
of the right Shift key... worse, it took the area that touch typists actually
use to press Shift.

Chromebooks, Apple, and Microsoft understand this. Dell mostly does. Logitech
does not, nor do second-tier manufacturers who try to shrink down layouts
without user-testing with conventionally trained touch typists.

Purism, if you're reading this, please: right Shift must fully overlap the
horizontal space of the Enter key.

~~~
hoosieree
A few of Lenovo's Flex/Yoga line have this infuriating right shift key
placement:

[https://duckduckgo.com/?q=lenovo+flex+4+shift+key&iar=images...](https://duckduckgo.com/?q=lenovo+flex+4+shift+key&iar=images&iax=images&ia=images&iai=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.laptopkey.com%2Fuploads%2F2068_1487725612_yyj.jpg)

(the SHIFT key is to the right of the UP_ARROW key)

Why laptop manufacturers feel the need to get creative with the key placement
is beyond me.

~~~
darklajid
My laptop doesn't have an End key.

Trips me up every time I am without a decent keyboard (to be fair: I mostly
use it docked).

------
0xCMP
Wow, this seems like a pretty nice laptop that supports OSS software out of
the box.

Keyboard, screen, and form factor seem to be exactly what people want. I
wonder how the trackpad is (usually a major problem with non-Apple devices to
get "right").

I also wonder what the battery life is like since I didn't see that in the
review either.

~~~
nfoz
I know I'm not normal about this, but I can't use a Linux/Windows laptop
without physical mouse-buttons on the touchpad. This is actually the only
reason I didn't buy a Librem13.

Apple's touchpad is better than the other OS's at least in part because the
software driver is smarter. I think Purism themselves were working to improve
the linux driver so there's hope on that front.

I read Apple's touchpad-driver source-code about 10 years ago, which was
available to read under some OpenDarwin apple license. It was pretty neat.
IIRC they draw a perfect circle from the center of the touchpad, radius
extending to the top and bottom. Any time there's a keypress on the keyboard,
within a small time-delay, any mouse motion outside of the circle is
discarded. Brilliant! In comparison, the Linux and Windows drivers of the day
would typically just say: within some larger(!) time-delay of a keypress,
discard ALL touchpad motion. Which is noticeably more frustrating -- you had
no way to reliably move the cursor at all while typing.

In any case, Macbooks were less enjoyable to me when they removed the physical
button, but their driver is still ahead enough that it's not so bad to use,
and their UI requires somewhat less right-clicking than I need especially on
Linux. But for Linux usage I require precise left and right clicks which I can
only get from real buttons.

I'm currently using a Dell Latitude 7380. The touchpad is great with real
buttons :) But hilariously, I found (and taught them about) a bug with their
keyboard firmware causing me frequent typoes, which affects all XPS 13 and
Latitude 7xxx laptops. Last month they issued a BIOS update to fix it,
specifically for the Latitude series. But if you have an XPS 13, I think they
have not provided a fix yet, so you are probably running into typoes that are
not your fault!

~~~
nfoz
I suppose I shouldn't leave on a cliffhanger, even if it's off-topic.

If you have a Dell XPS 13, try the following in any editor: 1\. Type the
letter "k". 2\. At virtually the same time, type the letters "o" and "k".
Press them at basically the same time except so that the "o" is first before
the "k".

You should expect to see "kok", but if you encounter the bug then you'll just
have "ko". This problem is for any two keys on the keyboard, if typed in that
"A, BA" pattern.

Let me know if you have the bug! If it's not solved in the latest BIOS, then
Dell probably needs a kick-in-the-pants from a real XPS13 owner to solve it
(even though I tried my best to convince them that it has the same bug as the
Latitude 7xxx, which is basically the business-equivalent but with my beloved
touchpad buttons).

~~~
heywire
Just to add a data point, I recently bought a Latitude 7370 (refurbished from
eBay), and it does not seem to have this issue (BIOS 1.7.4). And now that I
look at this version on Dell's site, it looks like I really need to update!

Side note: If you're looking for a laptop like the XPS13, under $500, and
don't need as much processing power, check eBay. The refurbisher I purchased
from seems to have lots of these, and may take offers. I got one with
3200x1800 QHD+ matte touch screen, m7-6Y75 CPU, 16GB RAM, and 256GB SSD for
$475 shipped in the US. The service tag says it was in use almost exactly one
year, and it looks brand new. I've only had it a few weeks, but so far my only
complaint is that the battery life could be better (seeing ~4h average).

~~~
heywire
So, after updating the bios to the one released Feb 2018 (1.15.3), I can
reproduce this issue, but only about once every ten or so attempts. Hopefully
I didn't just start a nightmare :)

BTW, if I had to guess, BIOS 1.8.3 sounds like it probably introduced the
issue:

\- Resolved internal keyboard double letters issue.

------
sowbug
Does anyone know whether the USB-C port will charge using a typical USB-C
charger? I don't buy anything that requires anything else anymore.

Very annoyed that the Dell XPS 13 is barely compatible with any USB-C
chargers. It won't even recognize USB-IF certified chargers.

~~~
ghancock
I have a Librem 15 v3 and it would not charge with an Apple USB-C charger.

~~~
sowbug
Though that charger is not fully standards-compliant, it is one of the more
compatible chargers out there because it's popular. So if the laptop doesn't
work with it, it probably doesn't work with the others, either. That's
unfortunate. Thanks for the info.

------
sfRattan
Has anyone else noticed that, on Purism's website[1], you can only select
"Don't Include" for the TPM dialog box if you have also selected the "English
(UK)" keyboard layout option? Or is this some bug in my particular web
browser?

For a company whose advertising copy on their "Why Purism?" page includes, "We
believe people should have secure devices that protect them rather than
exploit them,"[2] only allowing removal of the TPM chip for a particular
keyboard layout is a pretty big red flag.

[1]: [https://puri.sm/shop/librem-13/](https://puri.sm/shop/librem-13/)

[2]: [https://puri.sm/why-purism/](https://puri.sm/why-purism/)

~~~
ghancock
This [https://puri.sm/posts/tpm-by-default-and-free-
international-...](https://puri.sm/posts/tpm-by-default-and-free-
international-shipping/) says they are moving to including the TPM in all
systems, but there are some UK models left in stock without it.

The TPM is a security feature--you don't have to use it. I have not used it on
my laptop but I see from the documentation that it is different from some
other trusted computing systems in that the end user controls the keys and
what is loadable, not the vendor.

------
gattr
The laptop looks nice enough, but the lack of dedicated PgUp/PgDown/Home/End
keys is a deal-breaker to me. I'm also on a 13.3" (Lenovo E31-70, previously a
HP ProBook) and fitting these keys really isn't a problem.

------
merinowool
I wonder when it will become illegal to produce such laptops as states
progresses with surveillance and data collection about citizens. I would
really like to buy privacy oriented laptop as I don't feel comfortable that
someone can look up my private life. But this laptop is pretty weak to use it
for work I do sadly. When something more up to date is going to come out, I am
definitely going to buy.

~~~
lioeters
That's a probable future scenario, that computers will have privacy-invasive
data collection or some kind of security/encryption bypass _required by law_.

I feel like those of us who are privacy-conscious need to support
projects/companies/products like these, that are transparent/open-source and
respect their users' privacy.

I also agree with your sentiment that this particular laptop model might not
be powerful enough for "serious work" \- although it's getting close, and I'm
considering something similar in the near future.

------
walrus01
I don't see any specs on the wifi card there. _Assuming_ it's an Intel
802.11ac dual band minipci-express interface, (likely 2x2, not 3x3), which has
decent linux kernel driver support. But if it's not specified it could be a
lot worse. There's a shocking number of "new" laptops that still ship with 2.4
GHz only, 1x1 (SISO) wifi cards, because they're cheap as hell.

~~~
andrewcchen
They say on their website "Atheros 802.11n w/ Two Antenna"

Wi-fi cards are actually a huge issue if you are concerned about privacy. You
have no idea what the firmware is doing, and it has access to your entire
memory through the pcie interface, and the internet at the same time.

~~~
walrus01
802.11n

in the year 2018

ewwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww.................

I don't see how using a Qualcomm (Atheros) 802.11n chipset is any better than
an Intel chipset card, developers do NOT get access to the code that's running
its firmware. Same as Intel.

~~~
SahAssar
If you look at [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_open-
source_wire...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_open-
source_wireless_drivers) you can see that a few of the atheros chipsets have
both OSS firmware and OSS drivers, the intel ones only seem to have OSS
drivers. Perhaps they are using one of those that have the OSS
firmware/drivers combination?

~~~
walrus01
It really doesn't matter, the actual RF baseband inside the chip is still
closed source. Atheros never released it for any model. The firmware interface
to the OS driver, yes, but not what's going on under the hood.

~~~
SahAssar
It's still better than a proprietery firmware though, right? The baseband does
not have as deep access to the system (like DMA), so having the firmware be
OSS should at least be better than the alternative.

~~~
walrus01
I do not see the logic in having a M.2 NVME SSD attached to the pci-express
bus, which certainly has a totally closed source binary in its onboard
controller... That's in the laptop, and it's OK? It has access to every disk
read/write operation and manages a small RAM cache for the SSD flash,
organizes the write wear leveling algorithm, etc.

But they have to go with some weird, ancient 802.11n card instead of a modern
802.11ac 3x3 MIMO, dual band Intel chipset card, because they don't like the
binary blob in the ROM of the Intel minipci-express card?

At some point in time you have to trust the devices you're attaching to the
pci-express bus in an x86-64 system or you won't have any useful functionality
left.

~~~
SahAssar
I agree in principle, but there is also something to be said for not having a
closed system being able to talk both to a wireless network and have DMA.

Anyway, the more open components the system the better, and if this shows
there is an interest for an more open system, the next one might be more open
than this.

------
steve19
This looks like a really great system. The gpu is a little of a letdown but
other than that maybe this is the laptop to replace my MacBook.

------
tluyben2
What is up with that battery life... Lenovo X laptops with older batteries I
have (i5-i7) run 15+ hours while coding and browsing. And lighter laptops I
have with Ubuntu/Debian get well over 20 hours. Does this thing have a very
small battery or is it too powerful? So little battery life is a shame so
wondering if it is software or hardware.

------
teddyh
From what I can see, still no RYF certification, meaning no purchase for me. I
will continue to watch any further developments.

See also:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15358342#15359710](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15358342#15359710)

------
ne01
Interesting to see high quality laptops for open source OSs. I would so buy
this laptop if it came with a typematrix 2030 keyboard built-in

~~~
loup-vaillant
I carry both (laptop and typematrix) on my bag. Heavier, but bearably so. And
since I use a Roost laptop stand, I can't use the built in keyboard most of
the time anyway.

[https://www.therooststand.com/](https://www.therooststand.com/)

~~~
codetrotter
I used to do the same. Eventually the cable of my TypeMatrix 2030 USB was
damaged and I tried to fix it but I didn't know what I was doing back then. I
replaced the first one with two new -- one for having at home and one for
having at work.

I bought my first TypeMatrix 2030 USB in 2010 and kept using TypeMatrix 2030
USB until december of last year when I bought an ErgoDox EZ Shine with Kailh
Thick Gold switches. Completely black with nothing printed on the keys. The
ErgoDox EZ keyboards are ortholinear like the TypeMatrix and they have similar
keys in the middle but they are split in two and they have legs so you can
angle them. Also they are programmable so you can assign your own mapping. My
key map is based on Dvorak of course.

The ErgoDox EZ is quite expensive but it has been worth it IMO. Very much so
:)

The ErgoDox EZ is a bit more convoluted to travel with and you wouldn't be
able to use it without a table but then again I had already stopped carrying
my keyboard and laptop most of the time -- I now only bring them if I am going
someplace and will be away from home for many days. Laptops aren't that great
anyways; short battery life and the screens are too small. I mainly use a
stationary computer with dual 24" monitors, 32GB of RAM, an AMD Ryzen 7 1700
CPU and an Nvidia GTX 1060 6GB graphics card.

Here is the ErgoDox EZ website: [https://ergodox-ez.com/](https://ergodox-
ez.com/)

Here is the layout I created for my keyboard using their online tool:
[https://configure.ergodox-
ez.com/keyboard_layouts/qppwjy/edi...](https://configure.ergodox-
ez.com/keyboard_layouts/qppwjy/edit)

There are two things that are really nice about having the keyboard be
programmable;

1\. I can use it with any computer without having to configure layout
customization on the computer itself. Just set the keyboard layout of the
computer to be US QWERTY if it isn't already (I live in Norway) and I can use
my keyboard with the Dvorak based variant that I have defined.

2\. It can send different signals based on whether you are tapping or holding
a button pressed. Some people remap their caps lock to ctrl, some to esc.
Typically people that use emacs will map it to ctrl and vim users will map it
to esc. I use vim but I think having ctrl in that position is nice as well, so
I have the button in that position configured so that it sends esc if I tap it
and it sends ctrl if I press and hold.

Here is a photo of my room that I took just a couple of days ago:
[https://i.imgur.com/NcqDL9N.jpg](https://i.imgur.com/NcqDL9N.jpg)

------
wpdev_63
Unless purism can prove they are NSA proof, I would not buy their computers.
They expect a very large premium for the fact that their computers are open
sourced.

Don't get me wrong. I believe what Purism is doing is great and with the
direction of where society is heading this is a much needed product. I just
feel like they could be doing more to prove that they have a truly secure(from
NSA) and open.

With the Chinese social credit system and the vault 7 leaks; this is going to
be a massive market segment.

~~~
mamon
Actually, I wouldn't be surprised if Purism itself was a secret NSA division
:)

That would be the smartest way for them to target specifically the people that
are actively trying to avoid being spied (so, logically, they have something
important to hide).

~~~
wpdev_63
That could be but if purism open sourced their designs and their drivers
etc.(like they have) then it would be harder to mask that fact.

Or maybe you are a NSA agent trying to send false flags! :p

------
visarga
> GPU: Sixth Generation Intel HD Graphics 520.

Every time I see Intel HD Graphics I think weak GPU. Bad for image, Intel.

~~~
djsumdog
Really? I want Intel graphics. Fuck dual CPUs on my developer laptop. I don't
want to figure out how to disable or switch a separate NV/AMD GPU if all I'm
doing is photo editing and running docker images.

I'd really prefer if the XPS15 or HP Spectre 15in had the option for an Intel
card instead of an nvidia GPU I'll never use.

~~~
snovv_crash
What about the new Ryzen Mobile? Decent GPU and CPU, no crazy power overheads
with PCIe or GDDRx.

~~~
jhasse
Unfortunately the laptops with that CPU all suck. If the XPS 13 would include
Ryzen as an option I would have chosen it.

------
chuckdries
Am I to understand this laptop doesn't support uEFI?

~~~
rekado
It comes with coreboot. Is there a free UEFI-based init software that you
would want to use instead of coreboot?

~~~
mappu
Coreboot is low-level plumbing, on top of which, you can place either a BIOS
(SeaBIOS) or a UEFI (TianoCore). Purism chose the former.

There's an open question [https://forums.puri.sm/t/install-tianocore-
payload/2629](https://forums.puri.sm/t/install-tianocore-payload/2629) and a
somewhat-relevant developer comment at
[https://forums.puri.sm/t/librem-v15-boot-
issues/1202/7](https://forums.puri.sm/t/librem-v15-boot-issues/1202/7) .

