
Seneca: On the Shortness of Life - stingraycharles
http://www.forumromanum.org/literature/seneca_younger/brev_e.html
======
mattjaynes
For a very accessible and practical guide to Seneca (and other stoic
philosophers), check out "A Guide to the Good Life: The Ancient Art of Stoic
Joy" by William Irvine

The title is a little cheesy, but the content is gold. It's one of the books I
re-read (or re-listen to via Audible) multiple times a year. I find the
repetition is really valuable since I can slip so easily back into my old
thought patterns.

When I count books that have been most helpful to me, this one is at the top
of the list (followed by "War of Art" by Pressfield).

For a synopsis, check out Derek Sivers book notes on it:
[https://sivers.org/book/StoicJoy](https://sivers.org/book/StoicJoy)

Derek's intro to the notes: "Rating: 10/10\. Almost too personal for me to
give an objective review, because I found when reading it that the quirky
philosophy I've been living my life by since 17 matches up exactly with a
2000-year-old philosophy called Stoicism. Mine was self-developed haphazardly,
so it was fascinating to read the refined developed original. Really
resonated."

~~~
dome82
I agree with you. I re-read it multiple times and doing it again in these
days. The content has been so helpful in critical situations in my life like
the death of my father. I should probably buy the Audible version too...

Another great book that I would like to suggest is Meditations by Marcus
Aurelius.

~~~
ca98am79
+1 for Meditations

------
ealloc
Seneca sounds extremely privileged to me. His advice might be useful to rich
people, but not the vast majority of people (in his time, or ours) who have to
work hard just to survive.

His main complaint is against rich people who "squandered in luxury and
carelessness", the various ways in which "riches [are] a burden", how men care
too much about the "limit of their lands". Almost every sentence seems spoken
to someone too rich for his own good, with too many slaves, mistresses,
clients, and land.

It fits in with my picture of Rome as having a strong class hierarchy (and up
to 30% slaves!). This are the words from the "optimo iure" to themselves.

~~~
eruditely
Your comment is so out of line. You are still wealthier than him by vast
amounts. So no matter what you think he sounds like. You can still benefit
from his advice.

~~~
graeme
I agree with your sentiment, but I doubt this is true. Seneca was just about
the richest man in Rome. He ran the empire from behind the scenes, along with
Burrus for several years.

There were certainly many things Seneca didn't have access to from our time.
But I think on any sensible measure he was wealthier than almost anyone alive
today.

We've made many advances, but we forget that whatever we have often merely
replaced an older version that did the job well enough, especially for those
with means.

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seneca_the_Younger#Imperial_adv...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seneca_the_Younger#Imperial_advisor)

~~~
eruditely
You are still incorrect. The average wealth and rate of innovation is richer
you have more aggregate wealth in all the forms that matter to you(Dental)
except possibly status.

I'm pretty sure he wish he had dentistry.

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pjmlp
This is why it is so valuable to preserve the writings across centuries.

I always find a deep sense of joy being able to read such interesting thoughts
that were put on paper, papyrus, wood, stone so many centuries ago.

In a similar timeframe will anyone be able to read our digital thoughts?

~~~
MrRage
> In a similar timeframe will anyone be able to read our digital thoughts?

Lots of famous writing from the ancient world doesn't survive in the original
and had to be copied; what we have is copies of copies of copies, etc. And
plenty of ancient works are lost.

We will need to copy to newer media what is important for archival purposes
even now it seems.

~~~
sebkomianos
Once concern is that while we still discover ancient works, with digital if
something is lost, it's 99% lost for good.

------
k-mcgrady
I recently started reading "Letters from a Stoic" [1] and I'd highly recommend
it. It's a collection of letters, each a few pages long, written by Seneca. I
read one a day and have a pen nearby as I'll typically find at least 5 useful
pieces of advice or useful ways of looking at things differently.

[1] [http://www.amazon.co.uk/Letters-Stoic-Epistulae-Lucilium-
Cla...](http://www.amazon.co.uk/Letters-Stoic-Epistulae-Lucilium-
Classics/dp/0140442103)

Edit: in fact the letter I read yesterday was, like the one posted here, on
life. Some things I liked from it:

"...death ought to be right there before the eyes of a young man just as much
as an old one. [...] Every day, therefore, should be regulated as if it were
the one that brings up the rear, the one that rounds out and completes our
lives."

"To live under constraint is a misfortune, but there is no constraint to live
under constraint."

"Whoever has said 'I have lived' receives a windfall every day he gets up in
the morning."

------
petercooper
I wrote some notes with choice quotes, etc, on this book several years ago:
[http://peterc.org/pedia/seneca-shortness-of-
life/](http://peterc.org/pedia/seneca-shortness-of-life/) \- it might whet the
appetite of anyone without the time to read the full thing right now.

------
randomacct001
This is why I keep coming back to HN. Everyday I find weird and wonderful
surprises on the front page.

~~~
untothebreach
I really enjoy the writings of the Stoic philosophers. If you enjoyed Seneca,
you should check out Marcus Aurelius' Meditations[1] and Epictetus'
Discourses[2]

EDIT: changed the links to Project Gutenberg links on jwdunne's suggestion

1:
[http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/2680](http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/2680)

2:
[http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/10661](http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/10661)

~~~
jwdunne
Because of age of the writings, you can probably find free digital copies on
Gutenberg.org. I'm sure that's how I got Meditations.

~~~
untothebreach
Good idea. Edited to include them.

------
Padding
Stoicism is an interesting way to look at things and it certainly does make
for some engaging mental exercises .. but I'm not sure how much actual value
it can provide to everyday life.

One major problem with it, speaking as a 30-year old, is that it's not trivial
to come up with some "ultimage goal" or "prime principle" for life. But maybe
that's just me being unimaginative and isn't necessarily a flaw of the
philosophy itself.

The real issue is that being consequent about stoicism seems to always result
in contradiction given mankind's current state of knowledge. On one hand
stoicism is concerned with not wasting time (on indulgences) and at the same
time it ignores that a market economy (embedded in a democratic society) is
the only way we know of, that can reliably force a larger population to strive
for efficiency.

Of course the market economy isn't free - we pay for it by e.g. giving up
moral values. It still allows for huge bubbles of inefficiency to form -
things like complicance regulations that provide zero real value and only
serve as market barriers. And of course we're all just fallible selfish
humans, so there's no shortage of people studying and abusing these processes.
But all these points are, practically speaking, irrelevant, seeing as how
there are no (better) alternatives (yet).

So what is a stoic to do? Give up on a proven path to efficiency because he
doesn't want to be a "tool"?

Just imagine how much more of our time would be wasted if there weren't an
army of "tools" out there, working 8 hours a day towards the "indulgence" of
ensuring that there is allways enough fresh milk stocked in the supermarkets
of our cities.

~~~
Renaud
Stoicism is a personal philosophy. It doesn't concern itself with the whole of
human kind but with you. That much is clear in that stoicism advise you
against the temptation for fame, power, money, vice.

It's a philosophy that embraces fatalism and keep you on the path of finding
your nature and then keeping on that path, just being yourself, without
regards for external influences.

The notion of duty is however very strong in stoicism: social duty is part of
your nature. You have to accept your obligations and perform them the best you
can, without search for external rewards.

All in all, stoicism is a search for personal tranquillity, inner peace. It's
not even a philosophy of efficiency, at least I've never seen it described as
such.

Stoicism doesn't rely on "tools" either. You can be a milkman and still adopt
stoicism as your personal philosophy of life.

Duty is a very big part of stoicism: it acknowledges that we live in a social
world and that our nature, our role, requires that we perform our duties to
the best of our abilities. This is the only way to achieve some sort of peace,
by removing the fact that you need something eternal to yourself to find
satisfaction about what you do.

So, you can be a janitor, collect rubbish, be a developer, a manager, an
office worker, a CEO, it doesn't matter. You'll only achieve peace if you find
your own way to derive satisfaction in whatever fortune you find yourself in
at a given instant. In short: accept what fate threw at you, don't sweat what
you can't control, and learn to make the best of it.

I'd say it's a perfect philosophy for today.

~~~
Padding
> accept what fate threw at you, don't sweat what you can't control, and learn
> to make the best of it.

Yes, that's what drew me in at first too. But the details seem sketchy.

> It's not even a philosophy of efficiency

I believe that ultimately it is.

What is the point of giving up on deriving happiness from external sources, if
not to make the path to happiness a shorter and easier one? What is the point
of not worrying about things outside your control, if not to help focus your
efforts on the things you can actually impact? What is the point of
tranquility, if not to allow for more concious rational thought? How is that
not efficiency?

> you can be a janitor, collect rubbish, be a developer, a manager, an office
> worker, a CEO, it doesn't matter

By being a "tool" I didn't mean someone engaging in menial jobs. One can have
a prestigeous well-paid job, and still be bored to death, because his heart
isn't in it, or because tasks are perceived as too repetitive or too petty. (I
hope I'm not offending anyone by saying this, but just think of e.g. divorce
lawyers if you need an example.) Yet at the same time that individual might
be, because fate saw fit that way, the perfect person for that particular job
in a given society.

How can one both accept the fate (or duty?) he was dealt (or that his younger
self chose for him), and at the same time still stop wasting his life? How can
one find meaning in a process, that over the years has evolved to become
devoid of meaning, because ultimately that's what is necessary for it to
achieve peak efficiency? E.g. Like lawyers and doctors detaching themselves
from their clients and patients, because they'll burn out otherwise. (Again,
no offense intended, this is just the first thing to come to mind.)

> Stoicism is a personal philosophy. It doesn't concern itself with the whole
> of human kind but with you.

That doesn't invalidate any of my original points. The market economy benefits
the majority of it's participants. I.e., someone feeling like a tool, wouldn't
just quit because of some overall concern for society, but simply because he's
still wasting less time this way.

Another concern also is that if we advocate to some broader public to adopt
some "new" philosohpy, I think it's a prerequisite that that philosphy be one
that ensures the wellbeing of a society as a whole. Otherwise it might prove
difficult to engender support.

(By "new" I mean currently unknown/unpopular amongst that broader public.)

~~~
Renaud
> I believe that ultimately it is.

Then we'll have to disagree. Being more "efficient" may be a by-product of
stoicism, but it's not a measure of it and it's not a stated goal. At any
rate, stoicism is not a shortcut to happiness. It's a arduous one because it
takes practice and conscious effort.

Stoicism isn't about removing external pleasures either, the philosophers warn
us about the dangers of seeking pleasure where it could trap us. They never
said you shouldn't enjoy what surrounds you, on the contrary, they urge you to
take pleasure in the things that are accessible to you instead of lusting for
things that you believe will bring you pleasure.

You can call that efficiency if you wish, but that's a strange way of putting
it.

>Another concern also is that if we advocate to some broader public to adopt
some "new" philosohpy, I think it's a prerequisite that that philosphy be one
that ensures the wellbeing of a society as a whole. Otherwise it might prove
difficult to engender support.

I think this is a delusion: billions of people believe in mainstream religions
that have encouraged bigotry, hatred and wars. Countless have died in the
process.

Stoicism doesn't promote intolerance. It promotes reason, compassion, an
awareness of our personal place in the world and our responsibilities to it.
In terms of well being for the world, I'll take that over most other forms of
philosophies. You are perfectly free to wait until something better (for you)
comes along.

------
buster
Also a good read is Ciceros Cato Maior de Senectute:
[http://www.bartleby.com/9/2/1.html](http://www.bartleby.com/9/2/1.html) A
philosophical story about aging and death

~~~
sundance0
+1 for de Senectute. Very insightful work

------
riemannzeta
Those who feel they have discovered a treasure here should consider reading
Seneca "On Anger" and Musonius Rufus also.

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msane
I would not have expected Seneca to be the top result. Good on you HN.

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michaelsbradley
Those interested in Stoicism, and who are curious if and how its ideals might
be "baptized" and employed in a Christian philosophy of life, ought to look
into the writings of Fr. Alphonsus Rodriguez, who has been described by some
as a "Christian Seneca":

 _Practice of Perfection and Christian Virtues_

[https://archive.org/details/PPCV-Manresa](https://archive.org/details/PPCV-
Manresa)

~~~
jcromartie
Not to mention the church fathers called him "our Seneca"

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jcromartie
Perhaps I just need to keep reading, but he seems to be speaking against
squandering time, being engrossed, attached (hints of Buddhism here), etc.,
but he does not offer any advice other than seizing the day and tending to
your own desires, which sounds a lot like the hedonism he is denouncing at the
very same time. Are there some activities that are not vices, and are not
"giving away" your time?

~~~
andreer
Skip to Chapter XIV, if you must.

"Of all men they alone are at leisure who take time for philosophy, they alone
really live; for they are not content to be good guardians of their own
lifetime only".

------
anvarik
I am currently reading Letters from a Stoic, somehow the style resembles
except the fact that it is not written to Lucilius

~~~
freshfey
Letters from a Stoic is one of my favorite books on life in general. Almost
everyone I gave the book found something applicable for his/her life -
definitely a recommended read!

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IvyMike
I'm not sure why this is on HN today, but in a Baader-Meinhof Phenomenon kind
of way, I just came across it yesterday. It was in this commencement speech at
University of Minnesota College of Liberal Arts by musician/artist/writer
Dessa. It's 22 minutes long, so maybe you'll skip it, but it's a surprisingly
inspiring and motivating speech: [http://youtu.be/u38ue-
XxHtw](http://youtu.be/u38ue-XxHtw)

~~~
ssm008
Yeah, read about Seneca yesterday. I like the Baader-Meinhof Phenomenon, makes
things feel special.

~~~
krsree
Went thru an e-mail yesterday from Amazon that my wish-list book by
Seneca:Letters from Stoic was on discount, but couldnt buy it on time. BM
Phenomenon again!

------
myhf
(49 CE)

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sbmassey
Of course, in practice Seneca was considered rather hypocritical. But I guess
being an important aristocrat during the reign of Nero does that to you.

The best book I have read on the Stoics is the Cambridge Companion to the
Stoics, by the way, which has articles on every aspect of the philosophical
movement.

------
EGreg
I have read this, and my question is, what kind of activities does Seneca
consider NOT wasting time?

~~~
Raphael
Philosophizing?

~~~
EGreg
That's it? So sex is a waste of time? And what is the point of philosophizing?

------
0800899g
crazy how the stoics and buddhists never met .

~~~
akurilin
I was going to say, there are so many wonderful parallels between the two
philosophies. No reason not to merge them.

------
3rd3
Summary: An unexamined life without art and wisdom is short.

------
stingraycharles
This is an essay I will always remember. It helped me get through a burn-out,
and contains a lot of wise lessons. One quote specifically touched me:

"The part of life we really live is small."5 For all the rest of existence is
not life, but merely time.

Cherish the moments you really live. The moments you create your memories.

~~~
thret
I like: "You squander time as if you drew from a full and abundant supply,
though all the while that day which you bestow on some person or thing is
perhaps your last. You have all the fears of mortals and all the desires of
immortals."

~~~
stingraycharles
There are so many beautiful gems in there. This one might be particulary good
for the HN community also:

"Can anything be sillier than the point of view of certain people—I mean those
who boast of their foresight? They keep themselves very busily engaged in
order that they may be able to live better; they spend life in making ready to
live! "

People, here on HN also, are so busy planning their future life ("I will
retire when I'm 40!"), that they spend all their life planning their life,
without actually living their life.

Ah... I could give a seminar about this essay. It helped me in so many ways.

------
kartman
Yup, the printed version of this book is always a go to favorite read of mine.
Highly recommend. Among Stoics I found this most easy and good to read
repeatedly.

In some ways Benjamin Franklin's autobiography also feels similar, not sure
why.

------
delinquentme
And imagine how wise he would be now if still alive. Fight Aging.

~~~
reasonattlm
Seneca: "Death: There's nothing bad about it at all except the thing that
comes before it - the fear of it."

Insofar as death is oblivion, the destruction of the self, it is rational to
be unconcerned about being dead. You won't exist to have feelings on the
matter - which is exactly the same situation as for all time prior to the
point in your development at which you like to think that you became yourself.

Equally, it is rational to be very concerned about being dead at some point in
the future. Humans are creatures of action. We like to achieve, observe, and
experience. We place value upon these things, and death will stop us from
gathering that value.

So the world of people might be divided at any point in time into (a) the
group that is horrified by the prospect of oblivion, and (b) the group that is
unbothered by personal extinction. It's a very sharp dividing line, not often
explored in casual conversation, for all that one person's views might cross
back and forth between camps over the years. Try a poll of the folk you know
at some point in time: I think you'll find the results interesting.

Whatever your opinions on oblivion, however, it seems near universally agreed
that the process of becoming dead is something to be feared - so much so that
we work to hide the ugly reality from daily life, we put it from our mind, and
we even rise up in anger to confront those trying to do something about it by
fighting aging through the development of new medicine.

Terrible pain, injury, and degeneration are not on anyone's wish list. But
we'll all be receiving these dubious gifts anyway - unless something is done
about it. The difference between our age and the age of the Greek stoics is
that we have the chance to do something about it: defeat aging by repairing
its damage, improve our biochemistry, and ultimately replace our bodies with
superior technology that is immune to all that plagues us now.

~~~
tcopeland
> Insofar as death is oblivion

But that's the rub, right? When we have shuffled off this mortal coil...

