

India's skewed sex ratio - sasvari
http://www.economist.com/node/18530371

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bluekeybox
The fundamental problem seems to be that of parents making choices that either
benefit primarily them at the expense of their children or benefit their
children only if they grow up to be exactly like their parents. This is
somewhat unusual (one would assume that most parents would place their
children before themselves), and it appears to be a trait common to many
cultures in the third world (i.e., in addition to biased gender ratio,
indoctrination of children into the tradition/religion/culture of their
parents, child labor, arranged marriage, having lots more children than is
sustainable to be "competitive" with other families and to ensure help from
your offspring into the old age as a kind of "life/health insurance").

I wonder whether availability of medical care and better retirement plans is a
strong predictor of how much "child exploitation" by whatever measure is
taking place.

We don't have slavery anymore, and we have had emancipation of women in many
places, yet most of the world has never had the emancipation of the future
generation.

~~~
sudont
This is common thinking with everyone.

My parents thought I should rather be a janitor, or maybe a shop mechanic than
a developer because it would be "good, steady work" and I wouldn't have to
move away to find a job. Utterly stupid, even the people I worked with on a
paving crew said programing was a better career than anything else. Remember,
one of the arguments against not having children is "who will take care of you
when you're old?"

But on your point about "emancipation of the future generation." There will
never be such a thing, due to the inherent selfishness of a population. This
is why adoption is not a big deal: even if it's not you're genes, it's still
your mores being instilled on the next generation of your tribe. Which is why
the fear of racial shift is so idiotic: in fifty years we Americans will still
be loud, stupid jerks no matter what our skin color.

~~~
bluekeybox
> on your point about "emancipation of the future generation." There will
> never be such a thing...

Agree on your other points, but disagree on this one. I think such
"emancipation" of the young at least partially has happened in the developed
countries (although it is rarely talked about in terms I describe it). It was
enabled first by modern education (kids spending more time with their peers
grouped by age and being taught arts and sciences in school as prescribed by
government standards and not by their parents), and second by the spread of
communication technologies (first by television and mass media, then by the
Internet and the cell phones). I don't think it has fully happened though
because many important (from my perspective) things such as personal finance
management, political awareness etc. are not taught to high school-level
students assuming they are either "too young," or leaving that area for their
parents to teach, which ultimately contributes to much more financial and
political weight being wielded by the older generation. See modern Japan for
an example why too much power in the hands of the older generation may not be
desirable.

~~~
sudont
You've got a good point, however I think the lengthening and restructuring of
adolescence is being counteracted by the disenfranchisement of the youth: by
the time that someone is old enough to have any power to change things,
they've been steeped in the culture long enough to have accepted it.

Every generation is rebellious in youth, and conservative in age. The problem
is that the lengthening of youth means that it's easier for the ruling
gerontocracy to remember the pathways to rebellious ideology, and board that
up.

~~~
bluekeybox
> Every generation is rebellious in youth, and conservative in age

That's a common thing to say, but it only touches upon appearances. What does
the older generation have to rebel against if it is already its own source of
authority? On the other hand, as soon as the 14-year olds develop their own
source of authority separate from that of their parents, teachers, etc., they
are labeled as unstable psychotic teens and measures are taken to make them
conform.

Being a Nietzschian, I am strongly of an opinion that, "once a rebel, always a
rebel," and it may well be that the baby-boomer generation will have set the
mark for generational rebellion that will not be surpassed by their children
or grand children.

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billpg
I read about a scam somewhere (probably apocryphal) that a doctor could
guarantee a boy. People cheerfully paid the fee and undertook the procedure.

If a boy was born, everyone was happy and the doctor kept his fee. If a girl
was born, the parents would go back to the doctor where he would explain that
the technique wasn't 100% reliable but happily gave a refund with a little
extra as a goodwill gesture.

The scam was thet the doctor wasn't doing anything at all. Births remained
roughly half boys and half girls. The fees paid by parents of baby boys more
than covered the running costs and the goodwill payments.

(I'm not going to check Snopes. Its such a good story I don't really care if
its real or not.)

~~~
dspillett
I'd be surprised if it isn't true, and isn't happening right now in several
places. It seems like a really simple scam that would work well and not
attract enough attention to fail due to the "doctor" getting a bad rep unless
some of those the "treatment" failed for were not happy with the level of
compensation.

Back in the days when cheques were common there was a great scam in the UK. A
company promising to sell porn magazines and VHS tapes at (for the time) cheap
but believable prices, but never sending out any product (never actually
having _any_ stock). They just worked on the basis that most people would not
complain. When people did complain they appologised, gave some excuse about
their importers failing to deliver or some such, and a full refund was sent by
cheque. To reduce the outgoings, the cheques carried the (obviously porn
related) name of the company meaning many people didn't want to pay them in as
it would require looking the cashier in the eye if they noticed where the
cheque had come from (there were no automated cheque processing machines back
then). The scam only came to light when the "company" was investigated for
other irregularities (IIRC some of the products they were claiming to sell
were illegal, or at least close enough to the legal borderline to warrant
investigation, which is what caught the eye of the authorities).

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dmm
I wouldn't worry. Human societies have very effective methods for dealing with
excess men.

Here's a popular one: <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War>

EDIT: I really am worried. This is a terrible situation and one which I could
see as getting much worse.

~~~
die_sekte
China also has excess men. And India and China already have a territorial
conflict. If there is a third world war, it's probably going to be there.

~~~
iwwr
Perhaps a rehash of the theft of the Sabines.

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Rape_of_the_Sabine_Women>

~~~
michaelty
Or the Taiping Rebellion.

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiping_Rebellion>

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btilly
Related, Indian men are really, really bad for sexual inequality and violence:
[http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/2011-03-07/india...](http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/2011-03-07/india/28665246_1_indian-
men-international-men-males).

~~~
RickHull
Pardon the meme, but here is an instructive example of both sides:
<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ndX2RFHmMNg> (HOW CAN SHE SLAP)

~~~
btilly
Several points come to mind. The first is that people repeat how they have
been treated. The second is that men are usually much stronger than women - if
it has come to physical fighting you know who is going to come out ahead. The
third is that a quick glance at actual statistics shows that women are the
victims of violence far more often than they are perpetrators. (This is,
admittedly, most because of point #1.)

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honm
It could turn around. Fewer women will mean that your daughter will be able to
choose from a pool of single men and perhaps choose the richest one. If your
family is poor, it can benefit from this.

I think India should be more concerned about its overpopulation than about
single men, if anything having skewed sex ratios will help her reduce
overpopulation in the long term.

~~~
iwwr
Rich men may find it difficult (socially) to chose a bride below their social
class/caste and traditionally the daughter's parents have to pay the hefty
dowry. But either way, it's generally the choice of the parents and not the
bride or groom.

~~~
billpg
"have to"?

I'm cheerfully imagining a conversation between myself and someone wanting a
dowry for marrying my hypothetical daughter.

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shrikant
[http://viewtext.org/article?url=http%3A%2F%2Fmediumboss.blog...](http://viewtext.org/article?url=http%3A%2F%2Fmediumboss.blogspot.com%2F2011%2F04%2Fpandas-
are-dying.html&format=)

A thought-provoking post along similar lines.

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hieronymusN
I foresee a lot of very uptight men in India's future, combined with a booming
brothel industry staffed by women brought in from outside. Then there is the
usual war with China angle which is facing the same demographic issues.

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itissid
Even more problematic is the urgent need in many families to get the girl
married soon and preferably to guys who are 3-4 years older to her. While it
may sit well with many girls to have an arranged marriage(just look at the
huge online matrimonial industry in india), the problem is that parents give
into excess peer pressure in many situations and force the girl into a
situation. They even sugar coat it, they would tell you you have 1 year if you
asked for time, but you must choose. The parent's fears are somewhat elevated
by the fact that all prospective grooms are looking at girls in the age
bracket of <26 and preferably a age diff of 4 years. And dont even get me
started on the caste angle that narrows down the choice to < 2-3% of the
population(Is inter community marriage not akin to almost inbreeding? What
about the poor gene pool? Not to mention the ick factor). I am a guy and
looking from the outside who has never been on any side of this system. I can
say that though this system has its upsides, like more stable financial
prospects etc and perhaps the fore fathers in there infinite wisdom had a
method to the madness. But is this hurting India due to the people who do it
all wrong?

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rjhackin
The law of not revealing gender before birth has been there for a while,
doesn't seem to work all the time and moreover the perception/acceptance
towards girl child should change which is slowly happening due to people
getting educated.

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deskamess
I did not realize West Bengal was below the "natural" rate. Kerala (higher
than natural rate) and West Bengal are the top two states on the list. While
geographically and culturally distinct, they both have a habit of electing
communist parties to power and are labor union friendly states.

Is the average mentality of 'equality' in those two locations above the norm
of the national average? Is this a small part of what leads to better
representation for women?

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pragmatic
Wow. Doesn't take much to get _Lord of the Flies_ to break out on Hacker news
(in response to comments about war, rape, etc).

There's also the possibility of mass emigration. Like say if one country had a
need for a lot of skilled engineers, programmers etc and another country had a
hefty supply of the aforementioned.

The countries themselves are left as an exercise for the reader.

~~~
rjhackin
Interesting..even i was observing, within an hour this thread got carried away
into different directions even though the article and some of the comments
were good.

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tzs
Someone on twitter had a suggestion for dealing with this: "India has more
boys than girls. Pakistan has more girls than boys. Fuck the partition, let's
kiss and make up."
(<http://twitter.com/#!/amreekandesi/status/54963127854448641>)

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Seth_Kriticos
That's a sad social status quo.

