

Ask HN:  Can you code more than 40 hours/wk? - netmau5

Greetings HN.  I have a problem, at least I think I do.  I want to code more because I'm really passionate about creating things.  That has meant many different things throughout my life, but it has meant writing software since I discovered my first BBS.  I have a full-time day job and, while I enjoy it, I want to create something on the side.  I've been working on a side-project since early August but I feel like it's developing extremely slowly.<p>I can code about 40 hours a week.  And I mean really code, not just being at work: heads-down, super-productive hacking.  All told, I spend about 32-34 hours a week at work coding so I usually end up spending about 10 hours a week on my side-project.  This comes out to around 6-8 hours coding and 2-4 hours designing, researching, etc.  Those numbers change quite a bit depending on overtime so I typically get in about 25 hours a month on my side-project.  The thing is that I want more, but I simply cannot bring myself to code more.<p>It's somewhat amorphous, but I know that sometime every week I'll hit a limit.  While I can keep pushing on, my productivity takes a dive.  If I persist, after a week or two of overdrive, my overall performance starts to dive.  I thought something was wrong with me so I took several steps to try to improve through life-hacking:  I began going to a gym 3 times a week, dramatically improved my diet, and have almost entirely kicked the smoking habit (down to 2 a day from a sadly higher number).  Nothing seems to work.  The fatigue from ultra-focused coding just leaves my mind incapable after 40 hours of further deep concentration.<p>I typically spend the rest of my free time learning new things, playing games, or being with my girlfriend.   I definitely enjoy these things and like to have some balance, but I feel like I'm missing that hardcore edge to really hunker down and produce a quality side-project once in a while.  I feel like the hacker version of a guy who needs steroids to take it to the next level.  Is this normal?  Are the 16 hour/day guys the exception?  Is it really that naive to try a side-project and keep the day job?  Am I demanding an unreasonable amount from myself?<p>Thanks in advance for any feedback you guys have.
======
bd
People will tell you things ...

This is a topic that:

a) people _really_ like to brag about,

b) it's hard to separate "hanging around" hours from really productive hours,

c) even if you can distinguish those, it's a major pain to accurately track
them (do not trust what anybody says just from remembering).

Do not worry to much about raw hours numbers. Focus more on quality of these
hours.

In my experience, the difference in productivity / results achieved between
"good" and "bad" hours can be staggering. Well rested me can easily outcode
several tired overworked stressed mes :).

Forcing yourself heroically to work more when you already can't can be _very_
counterproductive (game industry notorious for permanent crunch times
sometimes does self-reflection [1][2]).

Working many forced hours can make sense when you have some external situation
where additional benefits of getting something done by deadline outweigh loss
of productivity. But even there, you are only borrowing it from your future
self.

Yes, I had situations where hunkered down and produced magnificent amount of
results working crazy hours every day, but at the end I got literally sick and
was unable to do any intellectual work for quite some time afterwards.

[1] <http://archives.igda.org/articles/erobinson_crunch.php>

[2] [http://www.lostgarden.com/2008/09/rules-of-productivity-
pres...](http://www.lostgarden.com/2008/09/rules-of-productivity-
presentation.html)

------
ohyes
"Are the 16 hour/day guys the exception?"

I sincerely hope so, and I question the hygiene/health of anyone who spends 16
hours a day > 1 day a week in front of a computer. I certainly have done 16
hour stretches of coding, but I don't think anyone can sustain that for more
than a day or two and still be sane. (I think you turn into rms, which can be
seen as good or bad).

The message that I would like to give you is that of quality over quantity.

First off, you don't have to be at a computer to be solving your coding
problems, keep a notebook, keep them in your head, write down answers as they
come. Relaxing you think about a problem probably doesn't count against your
concentration hours.

Secondly, if you are banging your head against a problem, it is probably time
to take a break or get help with it... There are diminishing returns from
struggling with a problem.

I don't doubt that you can spend more than 40 hours a week coding, but that
seems like a shitty quality of life. Wouldn't you rather see the sun
occasionally?

Wouldn't it be better for you to just work within the 40 hours, optimizing
your use of them? Maybe find a way to get stuff done at work more efficiently,
so you can spend more of your quota coding your side project?

It might also help to not try so hard when you are 'concentrating'. Let me
explain:

I feel like if you are trying really hard, it takes more out of you mentally
than if you are approaching it from a mentality of playing. Having more fun
will definitely stretch your endurance for these things.

My mantra is to 'work' as little as possible to achieve my goals. So I like to
turn 'work' things into puzzles/games. 'Work' is psychologically un-fun.

~~~
palish
Interesting!

May I throw in my two cents?

For me personally, and because I am 22, and because I truly enjoy my job (game
engine programmer), I tend to put in way more hours than I need to.

Way more hours.

On the order of 80-100hrs/wk. Of coding. (Which is to say, 80-100hrs/wk of
_actual thinking + typing_. Not "time spent getting ready to program" or "time
spent psyching myself up to begin working on the problem" etc.)

(Also, I love Vim. I'd likely be massively frustrated with all the programming
I was trying to do, if not for ViEmu + Visual Assist.)

And damn, it's fun! The only strain I feel is from lack of sleep.

Also, I think the 'quality' argument is subjective. It's true that if you're
physically exhausted, you can't work. But if I'm merely _pushing myself_ , the
output of my work is of a similar quality as when I'm living a "balanced"
week.

But the insidious thing is, I have a personality where if I try to "balance"
myself, I wind up mentally not "getting in the zone" for any of my projects.
And for me, it's a little depressing to be in that state, because I am only
capable of bug fixes / minor tasks. Nothing architectural.

So, in conclusion, I am certainly not planning on keeping up this lifestyle
forever --- I'm just enjoying the 80-100hr weeks while they last. It's a
similar feeling to being a kid staying up all night at a friend's house. It's
fun!

~~~
nimms
out of curiosity, how do you count 80-100 hours a week? Do you keep
timesheets?

100 hours is 14 hours a day, every day.

~~~
palish
Nah, no tracking. But maybe I should, that would be interesting.

The reason I make those claims is because I don't do much else at the moment
except "work" (which for me equals fun). I don't play any video games anymore
except the one I work on, and even then it's usually only once a week. I don't
use facebook. Etc. Hacker News is my outlet, typically before bed (like now).

Think of it this way... there are 168 hours in a week. A "proper" amount of
sleep is 8 hours a day, which is 1/3 of a day. So 168 * (2/3) = 112 waking
hours. Throw in the fact that I often have trouble sleeping, or go without
sleep, and... well, you get the idea.

I'm not claiming that I typically work 100 hours. This week in particular has
been unique. I'm just saying, for me personally, when I'm passionate about a
thing, I wind up _way, way_ more productive by obsessing over it and pushing
myself than if I try to "balance" myself.

Also, when I'm in "hardcore work" mode, I can only focus on exactly one
project. There is little or no room for any other projects, such as side
projects. Even doing an unrelated small bugfix has the potential to completely
destroy my enthusiasm / flow.

There are downsides, of course... one example that springs to mind is: my
right wrist has been hurting me. Badly, actually. I've been ignoring it, but
that's stupid obviously. I think it's possibly because of the shape of my
mouse. (I've heard that I should get a "splint" to prevent horizontal /
vertical wrist movement.)

Also I need to take care to ensure good nutrition, which I've been slacking
on. Also, Vitamin D pills + B12 pills.

~~~
gridspy
I got a sore right wrist during a Diablo 2 weekend, and it persisted for about
4 years.

In the end I had to get a chair of the right height, a desk of the right
height and a wrist rest.

Take it seriously, the most important thing is an ergonomic work setup and
some breaks.

------
darkxanthos
I think I'm roughly on par with you. I spend 40 give or take at work and then
come home and bang away on a side project. My girlfriend luckily has some
crochet projects usually so all day Sunday I can work on my side project (6-8
hours) plus about 2 hours a night another 4 nights out of the week. So say
maybe 15 hours a week on my side project not counting other research and such
I do for it (researching hosting plans, new gems to make life easier, etc).

Given that there are only 24 hours in a day, pulling a 16 hour day frequently
means you're not getting much sleep nor much of anything else ;)

Worry less about what other people can do. It's an ego-oriented goal and it
can end up causing you to feel defeated as well as lose track of your real
purpose. Instead focus on whether or not you feel like you could do more, and
whether or not it's worth it.

You've got plenty of company no matter what you decide. :)

------
dasil003
First, I commend your self awareness. That right there is the biggest battle
for me honestly. You should pay attention to your mind and body, and make sure
you are letting yourself recharge. I'm reminded of a recent article on here
about how Germans have the same productivity as Americans with fewer weekly
hours and a lot more vacation. The American culture values putting in the
hours more than it does productivity, and it's dreadfully easy to fall into
the trap.

As to the answer to your question, I think it varies a great deal, but I don't
think you'll ever get an honest answer based on any kind of data from silicon
valley, statistical or otherwise. The problem is that productivity is too
amorphous, and there's really no hope of getting an honest appraisal from
actual engineers because they're just as likely to fooling themselves as to
provide factual data. I know I've had some amazing 100 hour weeks where
mountains were moved, but it's really hard to be sure that I wouldn't have
gotten twice as much done in two 30 hour weeks...

Also apropos, I've currently been on a death march for the past three months.
At this point I'm still pulling 80 hour weeks, but I'm so worn down now that
I'm sure I'm not getting anything more done than I would in a normal 40-hour
week. It's sort of a make or break moment for the company I've spent the last
3 years building, so it's worth it this time, but it's also the sort of
experience that highlights the dangers of too much work. My body mind and body
are down far beyond what I could achieve on a personal project, or some
artificial scenario like you are given in college. It's definitely not a
lifestyle that I plan to continue, and I would caution anyone against living
this way. It's better not to burn yourself out, and always keep something in
reserve for when you really need it.

------
iuguy
I think it depends on the project. I've spent the odd weekend starting on
Friday night and finishing on Sunday morning (although that doesn't happen now
with a wife).

Years back I started writing multi-format shellcode, which required me to
learn 4 different OS and 3 different chip architectures to the point where I
could get assembly running across all of them. That was an insane project that
started out as get shellcode that worked on Linux and Freebsd/x86 and just ran
and ran as I found more things to add in and tweak. Then I'd sleep through the
whole of sunday and turn up for work on monday.

On the other hand I've worked on projects in my work time that are so mind
numbingly dull that I've spent 4-6 hours a day actual programming, come home
and collapsed in a heap.

It sounds to me like you're going past your wall and it's not flexible. You
need to qualify and stick to your limits. The gym, diet and smoking side of
things is a good idea, but not enough.

How's your sleep? I find that's the biggest factor in my day.

~~~
netmau5
I can identify with you on boring stuff, even a few hours of work can be
draining there. Not all parts of coding are equally interesting.

I should probably work on my sleep schedule. I get about 5-6 hours a night on
a weeknight and 10 on the weekend. I have a seriously difficult problem going
to bed before 2am, but fortunately my job doesn't expect me in until 9 or so.

~~~
iuguy
Interesting. How much caffeine do you get through in a day, and when is your
last caffeinated drink?

------
gridspy
I managed to code about 20 hours a week for 6 months, while also working
parttime. I blogged about it - [http://blog.gridspy.co.nz/2010/02/part-time-
entrepreneur.htm...](http://blog.gridspy.co.nz/2010/02/part-time-
entrepreneur.html) \- Great HN reaction here:
<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1150061>

I found that trying to be a father, an employee and also a startup
entrepreneur all-consuming. I really couldn't do anything else, all my time
was tied up.

Also, I probably couldn't have done it at all if my fulltime job required my
full talents. As it was, it was a pretty simple role requiring only
lightweight UI work in C++, so it didn't drain my brain at all.

Don't beat yourself up about not sustaining a huge number of hours. The best
solution is to be clever about how you use your time and to try to reduce the
number of hours you work.

------
jason_stidd
Is it about your side-project? You really should only be doing a side-project
for your enjoyment and the challenge. However, if you stress about your
productivity you might lose sight of the reason you started a side-project. I
am the person who can concentrate 16 hours a day, or even days on end without
sleep or breaks (in fact, i'm well known for it). It doesn't mean my projects
get done faster, the real result has been making those around, like my family,
feel neglected. I say enjoy your time with your girlfriend, focus your
productivity at work where it matters, and just enjoy your projects. --- There
is probably a good argument about the mental health of those, like myself, who
can concentrate for days on end, months at a time. Actually, I think its great
that you can relax after 10 hours a week on your project. I can never shut my
mind down long enough stop working on my projects, or even sleep.

~~~
c1sc0
Your last word worries me, because I've seen insomnia and it's a killer. Like
you I often have trouble shutting off my mind, causing me to continue working
on problems in my mind while I'm supposed to sleep. Sometimes productive, but
you will crash in the end, especially as you get older. When it gets really
bad I force myself to sit down & meditate. When I do that for a few days I
know I can find a healthy rhythm again. Heartpain, headaches & stress-induced
illness are not worth any perceived productivity gain. Learn to shut down your
mind.

~~~
jason_stidd
You are absolutely correct. I’ve never met anyone else with my level of
concentration. So other than what I experience first hand, I’ve never seen
anyone suffer from fatigue. But, while others can seem jealous about my small
accomplishments, I actually get jealous that they have lives.

------
kls
I have been slammed with work for the last 6 mo, picked up two other guys and
am still slammed. I literally code 12-16 hours a day and have a side project
that has just been languishing on the back burner for months. It is definitely
not a case of want to but I have too, I pulled a 116hr week one week of
literally non-stop code. I freelance and not pulling those hours means that I
loose the contracts that I have. It is a treadmill but one thing I have
learned and the piece of advice I can give you is that once it becomes habit,
it is actually easy to put in these kind of hours regularly if it is what you
want to do. I now find that while I work long hours when I do work, I also
tend to schedule longer amounts of time off to travel and recharge, it works
for me, but I would like to have enough head room to get back to doing my own
stuff as well.

~~~
davewasthere
A couple of years ago I made the mistake of committing to too many projects.
(I'd just started free-lancing and put a few feelers out and they all came in
at the same time! Typical!)

Think I was pulling 16 hours a day consistently for two or three months.
Managed to meet all deadlines, but in hindsight I think I made a couple of
poor design decisions - and I didn't question some of the things clients asked
for (just cracked on and did them without offering much input).

Now I make a conscious effort to say no (which I don't like to do, but must)
when I don't think I have the spare capacity.

Only problem with freelancing is how difficult it is to find time for your
side-projects. Am also trying to sort out enough head room to be able to focus
on my own stuff. Good luck with it!

~~~
kls
Yeah, I have been doing this for a while, but something is going on as of
late, they just don't stop coming, I double my rate and they still take it,
double that the next time and they still take it. So I am on this treadmill
where I can't say no and bringing people on, means having to stop to train. I
am at that critical point where it is very hard to grow correctly but can't
continue to handle it with the 3 people we have now, the other two where guys
I worked with extensively so they where real easy to onboard, the next won't
be so easy. Our time is so constrained that we don't even have time to build a
company web site (pretty sure we are going to just sub that one out, but we
still have to come up with the marketing messages). Not complaining though it
is a good problem to have.

------
johnthedebs
Don't worry, you're normal.

I've wondered the same thing a LOT. What I've discovered is that you can only
push yourself so much (although it's more than many people believe), and that
there are limits on how long you can spend focusing on one (type of) thing.

Also check this out:
<http://dl.dropbox.com/u/242985/rules_of_productivity.pdf>

It's called "Laws of Producitivity: 8 Productivity Experiments You Don't Need
to Repeat" and it's exactly what it says it is. Very interesting; I forget
where I originally discovered it.

My advice is to keep pushing yourself, but don't sweat it if you don't improve
over night.

------
mfukar
I usually code around 5 hours at work. About an hour is spent getting
coffee/lunch or just stretching, another hour at scrums or the occassional
meeting, another couple in discussions around desks.

At home, when I'm actually working on a project (ie. not work related) it
usually goes from 2 hours to 4 or 5, if it's a weekend I might spend a whole
evening on it, otherwise I save my nights for relaxing, playing a game, going
out etc.

All in all, it's probably more than 40 hours a week; around 55, I'd say. I'm
kind of trying to reduce it though, maybe hit the gym 3-4 times a week again,
or just find a hobby. :-)

------
jedwhite
Have a look at the Mylyn plug-in for eclipse and TaskTop Pro. Even if you
don't use eclipse as your IDE, there is a standalone version and it connects
to your bug-tracker / gmail and other task repositories, and let's not only
very easily track your active time on tasks/tickets, but has some very cool
tools for staying focused and organized.

And the reports really do help understand where your time goes.

They also help you see how your productivity is declining through the week,
and the patterns that match when you can really burn through stuff.

------
jayphelps
I seem to binge code often. Usually that means I'll go for 2-4 months with 2-3
hours of sleep, coding until the sun comes up. Now, I'm not super-human. It
takes a toll certainly. During these binges I'll crash for a good 8 hrs every
week or so to catch up.

I feel surprisingly okay during these periods, but it doesn't last forever.
Eventually my day time performance starts to slow and then I go back to a
normal routine where I still code almost non-stop except I sleep for 4-7 hrs
depending. It isn't out of necessity, it's out of enjoyment, which is probably
why I can get away with it.

(obviously, I eat, shower, and do take short breaks which usually means
Wikipedia, blogs, and such)

This isn't for everyone. I'm sure its very unhealthy and I have no doubt I
won't be able to continue this pattern when I'm older, but it's gotten me some
incredibly productive work done. It's so much easier to stay focused FOR ME if
I work on something in one sitting then to break it up. Some people are more
productive sleeping 8hrs a day...but I'm not one of them. It's hard to sleep
that long for me and I end up feeling like I slept all day.

It's so hard not to binge when there's always something to learn!

Lastly, like most on here I grew up from a very early age sitting at my
computer. Thankfully for me that means I rarely get tired of it.

------
aaronblohowiak
In the 24 or 48hr competitions (rails rumble, node ko, tc disrupt,) the most
frequent winners are those that still get sleep.

I think it is unreasonable to expect > 40hrs of pure programming productivity
a week -- the body/mind needs time to recover.

You should still keep up the gym, diet and smoking improvements as they will
continue to benefit you as you age (we all age, dont ignore it!)

~~~
netmau5
Thanks, my lifestyle changes have definitely made me feel a ton better,
especially in the mornings. Hopefully that will translate into more mental
acuity over the coming months as well.

------
kilian
I find that while my 'dayjob' programming saps my willpower, the same activity
for my sideprojects refills it right up.

I firmly believe that you need downtime though. Between my dayjob and my
sideprojects I always take an hour or so to play, watch television, read or
anything else that doesnt take much brainpower.

~~~
c1sc0
This phenomenon has everything to do with intrinsic motivation. When you can
decide _yourself_ what to work on, you can be orders of magnitude more
motivated & productive. Dan Pink's Drive is a good book to learn more about
this stuff.

------
sundar22in
My two cents: * We need a Work-Life balance and it is easier said than it is
done. * Periodical break and relaxation is essential. * You dont need to be at
computer always to solve problems and design. How about a whiteboard/notebook?

~~~
pa7
I agree with you, I mostly solve really tricky problems when I'm not in front
of a computer.

------
Vishnevskiy
I have been coding 14-16 hours a day for the past year for my startup. The
only down time I have is to hang out with my girl friend to keep her happy.
Originally it was my day job and the start-up and about 18 hours a day, but
ended up quitting the day job because it was draining my energy because I did
not enjoy it. I have to say it is not normal and very unhealthy and I
personally can't wait to force myself to reduce my time (for which I have
plans soon). That being said I don't find my productivity taking a dive and I
do love doing it, it's just awkward not dedicating time to anything else.

------
liamotootle
Is it possible the side projects are not interesting enough? If they feel like
work, rather than fun, it may be hard to keep plugging away at them after a
long day of coding.

~~~
netmau5
I have fun working on it but I think having a partner would really energize me
after a day's work. Unfortunately, living in Alabama makes it hard to find a
partner. I've made contacts over the net but they tend to fizzle out after a
couple weeks. Being solo means isolation and that definitely kills some of the
fun for me.

~~~
c1sc0
Having a partner is amazing. Whenever I feel down or just too tired to get
things done, I go & talk to my partner to get myself fired up again. If you
don't have a business partner, maybe you can find someone who works in the
same field & just meet up for drinks & bullshitting from time to time?

------
TamDenholm
Personally I can't code for more than 5 hours a day productively. Luckily I
work from home so I'm not forced to sit in someones office and be judged not
by what I accomplish but by how long I sit in my chair.

I actually get more done at home anyway since I have my perfect setup, good
music and no interruptions. Anyway, count yourself lucky that you're actually
very productive already.

------
jtchang
Sometimes it confuses me when people say they code this huge number of hours
per week.

To me a large portion of coding (over 75%) is just sitting down and thinking
about the problem. Most of coding these days is about researching libraries,
designing, playing around rather than typing.

Try to be more effective in these bursts. Use tools that help you get ideas to
code faster.

------
hellweaver666
I'd kill for 40 hours a week to work on my project, but between the day job
and family commitments (4 month old son!), I'm lucky if I can get 10 hours in!

Luckily, we're moving house next month and I'll finally have my own space
where I can go, sit at a desk and code - even if it's in short bursts. Trying
to work on the sofa while my wife watches TV just doesn't work for me.

------
vegai
Are you relatively young? Don't burn yourself out.

If I can manage 10 hours per week, I consider the week highly successful.

------
dpavlenkov
I find learning new programming languages stimulating. Or re-learning old
ones.

~~~
netmau5
Totally agree with you: even if I never end up using the language, learning
new idioms and patterns has been immensely useful.

I still make time to learn new technologies, I just find the physical act of
coding to have rapid mental diminishing returns after around 40 hours. That
probably isn't a big deal if you were running a startup. Code for a while and
then attend to the many other aspects of the venture. Having a day job can
really throw that balance off, especially when working for a company that
doesn't waste much time with meetings and busywork (which is a nice thing).

------
p01nd3xt3r
I code 12 hours a day (3 4h sessions). But I dont have a traditional schedule
because dont sleep. I only nap. If I did sleep there is no way I could do it.

------
gosuri
I tend to spend ~40 hours coding and rest designing/discussions and run to
clear my mind. It just wouldn't work if I code all the time.

------
peteypao
I'm doing around 8 hours + side project. I'm still standing, fortunately!

------
known
Can a surgeon do surgery for more than 40 hours/wk?

------
alnayyir
Eh. I'm capable of it, but not at a sustained rate. I exceed that kind of rate
in response to external pressures.

I'm most productive when I fiddle my thumbs and have bizarre bursts of genius
or when I plug at it at a pretty normal number of hours per week.

I've been exceeding that on a regular basis lately mostly because I have a
full-time job + side projects. It's not sustainable and I don't want to keep
doing it, so I'm going to try to wrap up a few things pretty soon.

------
Devilboy
I can't even do 40 anymore. When I was in my twenties I did about 4 years of
60 hours a week but those days are over.

