
The Berlin Wall fell 25 years ago, but Germany is still divided - tbolse
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2014/10/31/the-berlin-wall-fell-25-years-ago-but-germany-is-still-divided/
======
specialk
I'm a little concerned with the lack of any absolute numbers in the data
visualisations in this article. The 'more/less' and 'higher/lower' bars could
be very misleading on some of these stats. I can understand that adding
numbers can make these visualisations a little more intimidating but is it too
much to expect the high/low ranges to have an absolute number on them?

For example in the disposal income visualisation what kind of magnitude of a
difference is there. Is the average 2 thousand euro a year lower or 10
thousand euro a year?

What concerns me is that some of these stats can be massaged with the right
visuals into producing a difference between East and West that isn't as big a
difference as the graph makes it out to be.

~~~
Rondom
The original article published in the German newspaper Die Zeit has the
graphics with numbers. The article and the graphics are in English.
[http://zeit.de/feature/german-unification-a-nation-
divided](http://zeit.de/feature/german-unification-a-nation-divided)

I do not know why the Washington Post removed the numbers in their graphics...

~~~
ethbro
Washington Post is courting the "numbers are a distraction from the story"
demographic.

------
mxfh
Had a small twitter discussion with the editor of the article yesterday, that
for example the data on trash is not comparable (different metrics in
different municipalities, for example counting collected foliage or not),
especially that it doesn't allow the conclusion for a national divide, based
on some vague stereotypes. At least this fact got amended into the paragraph.

The bigger picture is that the eastern part of Germany got deindustrialized
twice. The first time post-WW2 from both sides. In part by the US-forces who
had seized the western parts, like Thuringia, but had to hand them over to the
Soviets in time, so they seized anything they could easily move out to the
western zones; _We take the brain_ [1].

On the other hand the Soviets, who were way more strict in getting their
reparations than their western counterparts, took apart a lot of factories and
railways and shipped them eastwards. Every bigger company that could, moved
their HQ and center of operations to the western zones — where they stay until
today — on their own as well. With them went up to 3000 mostly well educated
people per day, in total more than 3 million (of 17M total) in the 16 years
before the wall was built in '61\. The motivation of building the wall was
therefore economic in nature, since the GDR couldn't survive this ongoing
brain drain with the mythical _Wirtschaftwunder_ going on next door.

30 years later in the early 1990s after the fall of the Wall and the
reunification the _Treuhand_ , a state owned-holding, who's sole purpose it
was to sell-off the former GDR state owned businesses to potential investors,
kind of more or less knowingly finished off the rest of what was left of the
industry. Since not a few of the western investors were solely interested in
buying up potential rival enterprises, so they could dismantle them shortly
after. This left the east in a highly disadvantageous position with the west
of Germany, since there were practically zero industry clusters left and since
then state subsidies had could only do so much in creating the organic growth
that was needed.[2 includes some good maps]

[1]
[http://www.pentaconsix.com/01gerhis.htm](http://www.pentaconsix.com/01gerhis.htm)

[2] [http://www.dw.de/mapping-differences-in-two-german-
economies...](http://www.dw.de/mapping-differences-in-two-german-
economies/a-17734799)

~~~
growupkids
Don't forget the crushing secret police state, the high cost of the soviet
focus on war production that redeployed commerce across the soviet empire to
make weapons, instead of consumer goods, centralized planning, failed
communist economic policies, gulags, and the decades of communist education
that wiped out generations of entrepreneurs.

~~~
vegedor
Wait a second, who was send to Gulags (in Siberia, I suppose)?

~~~
venomsnake
Little mentioned fact is that after WWII the soviets took almost 1M people
laborers from Germany to USSR. I think some of them returned.

The allies also used a lot of them. Not their brightest hour.

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forced_labor_of_Germans_after_W...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forced_labor_of_Germans_after_World_War_II)

------
miked
Reading this, I couldn't help thinking of an observation P.J. O'Rourke made
after visiting the DDR ("East Germany"): "It takes a special kind of economic
system to turn a nation full of Germans into a third-world country".

~~~
KobaQ
Nails it. Great quote. And you can't reverse the damage of this economic
system overnight, especially when almost all of the young people willing to
build and create something new have moved away.

~~~
ul5255
The last part of your reply is especially important: East Germany is most
likely the blue print of what will happen to the southern portions of the
European Union. I am surprized this is not discussed more widely.
Deindustrialization with most of the educated young generation moving away.
This trend is hard to reverse.

------
brc
25 years is a very short time to expect some of the longer term economic and
cultural changes to take place. Just like the street light bulbs, they'll get
replaced as the old ones die off.

On a related note, I've never understood how you could live in West Berlin and
yet travel freely to the rest of west Germany, because the city itself was
deep in East Germany. I know the city was supplied by airlift during the
blockade, but that eventually stopped. So how did someone from West Berlin
travel to, say, Frankfurt by car? What was to stop someone from East Germany
doing the same thing? The wall only went through the city, right?

I have travelled in East Germany and I found it to be a pleasant place, with
very friendly people. Though they tended to have bizarre fashion sense and
much more limited English compared to west Germany.

~~~
brownbat
This puzzled me too.

Wikipedia has a good overview under the Travel section of the article on West
Berlin though:
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Berlin#Transport_and_trans...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Berlin#Transport_and_transit_travel)

Seems like there were a few ways out, and they all had systems of monitoring
in place. Westerners on the highways could interact with Easterners, but their
trip was monitored at check points, down to how much time they took for the
journey, to make sure they weren't fraternizing too much.

Apparently the GDR, who was bearing the cost of the transit roads and was
facing economic difficulties, began levying fees on travel from West Berlin
and West Germany. They tried to increase these fees, but eventually the FRG,
probably realizing it was over a barrel on the issue, just started paying the
GDR a yearly fee to keep the roads toll free.

The flight travel bit is interesting. If you had fled into West Berlin, you
can't exactly drive through East Germany like everyone else. The Western
government subsidized a flight service between West Berlin and West Germany
primarily for such travelers.

Fascinating period.

~~~
Erwin
The 1948-49 blockade was also fascinating moment. The Western parts of Berlin
(at the time split between France, UK and USA) had their roads blocked off;
rather than start getting supplies from the Soviet side and thus lose control
over West Berlin, an airlift was instituted which did an amazing 200,000
flights to Tempelhof over 11 months. In comparison, Chicago ORD had 580,000
combined landings and takeoffs in the whole of 2014.

Conflict-wise it's interesting to contrast the general Cold War with the non-
wars if Afghanistan, Iraq.

------
KobaQ
I'm always annoyed that while pointing out that the right-wing extremist
parties are stronger in the east than in the west of Germany, they really
don't matter at all. Look at their numbers[1]. However, the left-wing
extremist party "Die Linke" is a direct successor of the SED, which was the
communist party of the DDR, is surprisingly strong [2]. Clearly, it shows the
disappointment of the reunion of quite some people in eastern Germany. The
disturbing fact here is:

The difficulties these regions face are a direct consequence of the
exploitation done by the communist dictation (the SED). It took billions of
euros to alone fix the environmental damage, e.g. in Bitterfeld
[3](unfortunately in German). Also, the industry there was not on level to
compete in the world market, how should it? State-directed economy might have
theoretically advantages when applied worldwide by humans without human flaws,
but in our real world it has been proven wrong again and again.

The damage done to a region by 40 years socialism can't be fixed within 25
years with 0.95 ... 2 trillion (!) [4] euros. But people still vote for the
party who has done all the damage. (And I haven't talked about the personal
damage that has been done by prosecution, murder and torture by the Stasi (the
secret forces of the DDR).

[1]
[http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nationaldemokratische_Partei_De...](http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nationaldemokratische_Partei_Deutschlands)
[2]
[http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Die_Linke](http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Die_Linke)
[3] [http://www.faz.net/aktuell/wirtschaft/20-jahre-
umweltunion-m...](http://www.faz.net/aktuell/wirtschaft/20-jahre-umweltunion-
milliarden-fuer-die-umweltsanierung-im-osten-11054313.html) [4]
[http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosten_der_deutschen_Einheit](http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosten_der_deutschen_Einheit)

~~~
bildung
_The difficulties these regions face are a direct consequence of the
exploitation done by the communist dictation (the SED)._

While that is an often repeated trope, you'll be hard pressed to find actual
studies supporting it. In fact is seems that correcting for the different
start positions of both economies (marshall plan in the west vs. reparations
in the east) explains pretty much all the difference that was appearent in the
late 80s. (see e.g. "Das Scheitern des Realsozialismus" by Steinitz).

I'm not sure why that trope is so successful, but one reason could be the that
from the viewpoint of someone from the western parts of Germany looking at the
eastern parts, what catches the eye is the abysimal effiency of the micro
economical structures, as micro economical effiency is something a market
economy shines at. The macro economical aspects are not that appearent for an
observer because apart from monetary policy macro economies aren't part of the
western political discourse. But Eastern Germany had a planned economy, e.g.
the focus laid on the _macro_ economical development, and macro economical
growth was indeed consistently higher than in Western Germany from the 50s
until the 80s.

 _It took billions of euros to alone fix the environmental damage, e.g. in
Bitterfeld_

...as it did in Western Germany in the 80s. Haven't you seen the pictures of
the massive acid rain damages of the black forest in Western Germany? (have a
look at "der Spiegel" from 1981:
[http://www.spiegel.de/spiegel/print/d-14347006.html](http://www.spiegel.de/spiegel/print/d-14347006.html))
Those massive environmental destructions were results of the industrial
_zeitgeist_ and could be observed in both political hemispheres.

~~~
pinaceae
bullshit.

as it takes a magnitude more energy to refute bullshit than to produce it,
i'll be brief.

1., the complete soviet block collapsed due to its economic system and
policies. growth, consistently from 50 to 80s, higher than in the west? are
you delusional?

2., the "saurer regen" was a) never that bad and b) still tackled and fixed.
what exactly did the east ever fix?

as someone who travelled into the old eastern block due to my heritage i have
to say that your revisionist bullshit is deeply offending.

~~~
bildung
_bullshit._

Thanks for that insightful reply.

------
Theodores
_" Offa's Dyke fell 750 years ago, but, the United Kingdom is still divided"_

I am not sure about flu jabs and childcare or even who does their recycling,
however I am sure that most of the comparisons can be said about England and
Wales. It would be funny if pollsters did surveys and found 50% of English
people didn't think the union with Wales had worked out as well as the king
had told them it would.

~~~
mikeash
Look north instead of west and you'll see a chunk of the United Kingdom where
a lot of people seem to think that joining with the English was a bad idea
after all.

------
uberwach
The light color difference in Berlin is awesome, didn't know that.

Another difference: the Ampelmann West:
[http://tinyurl.com/krew59f](http://tinyurl.com/krew59f) East:
[http://tinyurl.com/k6nk8dx](http://tinyurl.com/k6nk8dx)

~~~
mtmail
I'm waiting for the Lichtgrenze installation (licht=light, grenze=border)
which visualizes the Berlin wall next week.
[http://vimeo.com/105754237](http://vimeo.com/105754237),
[https://fallofthewall25.com/](https://fallofthewall25.com/)

------
brownbat
This led me down a few rabbit holes online. I had never heard the Kennedy or
Reagan speeches from Berlin, but they're embedded on the wiki:

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berlin_Wall](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berlin_Wall)

Those both stood out against the backdrop of dry political speeches. You have
a leading statesman, sure, of a country with plenty of its own flaws, but
calling out a system that is completely absurd, immoral, and against the
course of history. Speaking partly from national interest, no doubt, but still
calling something out, calling it like it is.

Leaders seem to get a lot of extra points in their legacy column when they're
able to pull this off.

If the sitting President were to make such a speech today, I wonder what and
where it would be.

~~~
ams6110
Probably in Syria, calling for reform of radical Islam.

~~~
aikah
> Probably in Syria, calling for reform of radical Islam.

What you say makes no sense.Of all the countries in middle-east,Syria is one
of the least islamic and did a good job at protecting minorities like
christians.

Your saudi folks on the other hand are no different that what ISIS is
preaching.But your government loves saudi money.

~~~
adventured
The US loved Saudi oil, not Saudi money so much. The US never really needed
money from Saudi Arabia. The sole reason the US took a distinct interest in
propping up the monarchy was for oil price and supply stability.

With the US boom in shale / fracking oil (and Canada's coinciding oil boom),
Saudi oil not only matters less by the day to the US, but Saudi Arabia is
increasingly becoming a hostile oil competitor looking to fight the US
domestics for market share. That conflict will get worse by the year going
forward, likely eventually ending with the US reducing its guarantees of
security for the monarchy and with the Saudis turning increasingly to China
for protection.

------
emsy
I'm from Germany (born shortly before the fall) , and I _always_ found it
super weird that this "us vs. them" mentality existed. Compared to the
enormous timespan east and west Germany was considered the same nation, those
40 years seem to pale in comparison. Besides that, there wasn't a civil war or
anything that divided the population intrinsically, but it was forced upon us.
On the other hand, Germans are known for doing or thinking what they're told
and in German media and the German mindset, the wall still exists.

~~~
jboynyc
"Enormous timespan"? I think if you take some history into account you will
reconsider that. We tend to project the existence of a construct called
Germany backward in time, but Germany did not really come into existence until
a bunch of small states were united under Prussian leadership in 1871, and
even then it remained a pretty fragile construct. Lots of tribalisms remained.
Still, if you count the timespan between 1871 and 1945, you get a bit over 70
years. That's not nothing, but not that much more than 40 years. You should
probably subtract the four years of WWI and the 12 catastrophic years of Nazi
rule, and then you are left with less than 60 years of shared history before
the division into east and west.

~~~
emsy
A nation is not defined by borders and politics.

~~~
jboynyc
Yes, it is. National _ism_ as a political ideology just likes to pretend as
though it weren't.

~~~
AnonymousPlanet
Ok, since we're kind of nitpicking over the word "nation": what do you suppose
was the Holy Roman Empire of German Nation?

I'm aware that you were referring to the idea of a nation as it was
established around the time of the French revolution. However, "Germany" as
some kind of coherent construct is not just a recent concept.

------
danbruc
Besides the still visible difference between eastern and western Germany you
should not forget that we are really well off in comparison with other
countries. And not everything in eastern Germany is worse, for example daycare
availability as a leftover from the GDR or infrastructure like roads and the
fiber network due to the heavy investments after the reunion. When DSL became
common it was hard to get it in eastern Germany because there were no copper
cables.

------
gambiting
>>Here is one possible explanation: Having dealt with constant food shortages
until 1989, eastern Germans learned to economize and buy only those items they
deemed necessary

There are two sides to this. After the fall of communism in Poland in 1989
people would buy EVERYTHING they could put their hands on. We had 3 washing
machines in our basement - when I asked my father why, he replied that during
communist times you had to apply to the government for a permit to buy one, so
after 1989, when you suddenly could just walk into a store and buy one with no
restrictions, it made perfect sense to buy 3 at once! You never know if you
won't need more! And the same principle applied to everything. In fact, my
father made a very successful business importing stuff from the West, since
(as he put it) you could bring back a truck full of any junk you could find,
and people would buy it - they were so eager to breathe in this new capitalist
freedom where anyone could buy anything, that they were buying old TVs and
motorcycles by a dozen.

------
PythonicAlpha
I think, one of the reasons, many in Eastern Germany turn to right wing
parties or groups, is that they see it as alternative to the capitalistic
system, which is represented by the other parties. The other alternative, the
left wing side was made unpopular by the fall of the so called "communistic
system" and the saying, that Communism has lost, sticks to the people. So they
turn right wing. Of course, the right wing parties are no real alternative to
capitalism, but that is difficult to comprehend.

Even Hitler himself presented the NSDAP as alternative to the US capitalism in
the 30s. On the surface, it was, but when you looked deeper it was some kind
of "undercover capitalism" under the hood of a movement that claimed to be
social and unite the people -- but in reality it united some people, by
tearing the whole apart, by finding some new foes, the rest of the people
should feel as one. But this was an illusion from beginning.

I think, the right wing parties and groups do the same today again. They find
the problems, the people have with capitalism -- and capitalism did not treat
the eastern people well after the fall of the wall -- and use it as cheese in
their big mouse trap.

Yes, Germany is still divided in my opinion today, because the rulers did not
understand that the people need more than only bananas and some money in their
pockets to go shopping.

Many women -- it is said -- even had an abortion in Eastern Germany after the
fall of the wall, because unemployment was pressing so hard and in spite of
German laws, some employers pressured them to do so. With unemployment still
high and wages still lower than in the western parts, it is understandable,
that many people don't feel to comfortable with a system that gives money, but
once again no hope to those people. In the old system, they lacked bananas,
but they had peace of mind and did not have the pressure to beat their
neighbors. I heard many times, that people where much more friendly and
helpful with each other in the old system, than they are today.

------
zwieback
25 years isn't that long, really. My dad grew up in Berlin during and right
after the war, my mom's family fed to the West after losing their factory and
property in the East to the Russians and were denied education due to their
bourgeois status. Their world view is still shaped by those events so how
could 25 years wipe out the stark divisions between the two Germanies.

It's hard to describe what it was like traveling as a tourist to East Berlin.
Stepping out of the S Bahn station into the East was like emerging into a
movie set of the immediate post war era, it even seemed like being in a black
and white movie. Trying to spend the 25 Marks they forced you to exchange into
Ostmarks was nearly impossible, there was just nothing you wanted to buy there
except for Russion literature, maybe.

------
jedrek
It's amazing how little it takes to create divisions and how long it takes to
reunite. I assume that the Koreas are looking at Germany's reunification long
and hard, and I imagine they are scared shitless.

~~~
venomsnake
If there is North Korea left. They seem hell bent on destroying their country.

------
notastartup
wow I never expected Berlin to be on East Germany.

------
rapidally
Why is this on Hacker News? Is this site going to use its popularity to preach
about social issues now, like so many other tech sites have? That's a huge
turn off for me.

~~~
vegedor
It's kinda relevant economically, and in spirit since Berlin has a thriving
culture of hackers and startups.

A bit defocus and diversion don't hurt either. It's not the kind of breaking
news I come here for, agreed. Social issues are everyones responsibility,
anyway, so it's a fruitful basis for comments.

