
Backpage Shuts Down Adult Ads in the U.S., Citing Government Pressure - ryanmonroe
http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2017/01/10/509127110/backpage-shuts-down-adult-ads-citing-government-pressure
======
hendersoon
Oh no, they shutdown a site on the internet. That'll work!

Shutting down backpage.com was obviously a mistake. It was a centralized
location to advertise illegal services. Everybody knew it existed, it was
hosted, owned, and financed in the US and subject to court orders and
subpeonas.

Now another site will pop up shortly, either in a jurisdiction that doesn't
answer to US law enforcement or, eventually, as a Tor hidden service.
Prostitution and human trafficking volume won't be impacted except in the very
shortest of terms. Just a stupid self-defeating response from our politicians.

The right answer would have been to leave Backpage's sex services classifieds
up and pay for law enforcement to review the site on a regular basis. Control
and regulate. Don't force your primary information asset to relocate to a less
accessible location.

~~~
mtdewcmu
You would think that it would be helpful to leave Backpage alone, because the
cops could use it to figure out who the child sex traffickers are.

~~~
cloakandswagger
I have a hunch that police didn't uncover lots of child sex trafficking rings
on Backpage, nor were they interested in doing so.

It was far more useful as a honeypot & revenue generator for them through John
stings. Setting up a fake Backpage ad for a weekend and raking in $20k through
the relatively safe act of fooling non-violent offenders is the best deal out
there for police.

At the end of it all you get a nice feel-good headline about how the local PD
arrested 40 sex offenders.

~~~
tn13
This. Most of the times it was a honeypot service and backpage probably shut
it down because of that.

------
mundo
Hang on. The CEO and two board members were arrested and charged with pimping
_three months ago_ , and they're just now taking down the ads? That is some
dedication to free speech, I guess...

(The rationale was that, since the site has tools to help posters write their
posts, the site owners were in a "conspiracy" with the authors of illegal
posts. (Edit - that's not very accurate, see below))

~~~
hendersoon
No, if you read the senate complaint, backpage employees actually EDITED posts
to make them less obvious advertisements for illegal activity. And that
clearly breaks safe harbour.

~~~
jandrese
Didn't that argument fall completely on its face in court?

~~~
hendersoon
Yes it did, the Backpage executives were cleared of all charges.

And then the CA Attorney General and Senate apparently went after their credit
card processors in an extra-legal way, applying pressure that forced Backpage
to take down their sex services classifieds.

------
andrewclunn
The best argument for legalizing prostitution is because then it will allow
for a separation of it and child sex trafficing, effectively undercutting the
black market while preventing those unscrupulous enough to promote it from
hiding behind the purposefully vague adult escort services.

~~~
chillwaves
And because women involved have no police protection as long as this is
illegal. They will always be the most vulnerable members of society afraid to
get help.

~~~
cassieramen
The other side of this is that victims of sex trafficking are often so
emotionally attached to their pimp that arrest is sometimes the only way to
separate them and force them to talk to a counselor. These women are often
mentally impaired or were very young when they began "dating" (working for)
their pimp. Convincing them to not just leave but testify against the person
clothing, feeding, and sheltering them is a tall task.

------
xzel
I promise you its just on to the next website... I honestly wonder if the
people that work these cases get tired or disheartened by their game of whack-
a-mole.

~~~
AndrewUnmuted
Although the act of soliciting prostitution is illegal, what exactly is so
wrong about this really? Backpage appears to have provided listings that
allowed consenting adults to engage in business with one another.

Perhaps they just need to stop their mole-whacking game?

~~~
BorisMelnik
underage girls, and pimps taking advantage of drug addicted women. there are
tons of "legit" agencies that operate as true businesses, the majority of the
backpage listings are really sketchy.

 _NSFW_

Check out this escort forum online, it gives some really interesting insight
into the whole debacle. as you can see, most of the girls don't really care
and are even glad:

[http://independentgirls.com/indiboard/index.php/topic/518200...](http://independentgirls.com/indiboard/index.php/topic/518200-backpage-
shutdown/)

"Some criminals and low-life types formerly using Backpage will now go berserk
without their money and/or their drugs. Violent crime in the streets.
Unbelievable."

~~~
cloakandswagger
Well, of course professional escorts are happy. Backpage was, at best,
competition for them, allowing "independent contractors" to offer competing
services for cheaper. At worst, it was a very popular sting site for cops,
effectively scaring off customers in the area.

When you're a "pro" with your own website and $600/hr price, Backpage is
competition. I don't think they're happy about it because of concerns about
human trafficking.

------
kyledrake
I am waiting for the legal process before coming to any conclusions. The
government thinks they have a case to argue that Backpage does not receive
safe harbor protections, and the only way that is possible is if they can
prove Backpage was knowingly promoting sex trafficking. Which means they
probably have some evidence to suggest that.

~~~
ipsin
What legal process -- or specifically, what court case(s) -- are you referring
to? My understanding was that the owners had beat pimping charges [1] using a
CDA defense, and I didn't know what else they still have to contend with.

[1] [http://reason.com/blog/2016/12/10/backpage-leaders-beat-
pimp...](http://reason.com/blog/2016/12/10/backpage-leaders-beat-pimping-
charges-as)

~~~
kyledrake
Thanks for the update, I was under the impression the court case was still
ongoing. Looks like the judge threw it out on safe harbor (Section 230)
grounds.

------
momentmaker
What's the difference between this and a sugar baby site like seeking
arrangements?

~~~
iaw
Backpage offered prostitution arrangements. Sugar babies, in spite of what
people think, aren't prostitutes. It's just that girls that don't sleep with
their sponsors tend to lose their sponsors.

Also, think about what type of men can have sugar babies vs. what type of men
engage in regular prostitution and there's a class based argument that
emerges.

~~~
hendersoon
There is no real difference, it's all optics. Sugar baby sites claim there's
no direct exchange of money for sex, so they /look/ less clear-cut
prostitution and thus haven't been actively prosecuted to the same degree.

But when you get a 65 year old rich dude "dating" a 22 year old bartender,
that met on a sugar baby site, it's pretty clear the girl isn't with him for
his rock-hard abs and winning personality.

~~~
iaw
I know women who work as escorts and girls that have been sugar babies,
there's a pretty distinct difference.

~~~
hendersoon
They THINK there's a difference. That's the big con of "sugar babies". They
watched 50 shades of gray and think it's romantic and edgy. They're conning
themselves into thinking they aren't prostitutes when they absolutely are.

Not making a moral judgment here, I feel consensual paid sex should be legal.
But call a rose a rose.

~~~
elastic_church
Don't worry about it and get your jollies off with whatever synonym you feel
like at the time.

~~~
hendersoon
I don't really see why the price charged makes a difference. Either you're
having sex for money or you aren't. Everything else is just cosmetics.

Again, I completely understand that the distinction is EVERYTHING for these
girls, because they truly don't think of themselves as prostitutes. But that's
simply their self-deception.

------
peterwwillis
Please don't be fooled into believing the government had some altruistic
motivator to do this. This is simply politicians and government agencies
buying political capital by hurting morally-offensive sections of society
which they keep illegal so they can have more sway over their real target: the
moral majority.

The only reason to keep prostitution illegal (and pornography legal) is the
moral argument that actually having sex is a sin (and "not classy") whereas
just looking at sex is more of a minor inconvenience morally. By shutting down
businesses like these they get the support (monetary and politically) of the
moral majority. Business as usual.

------
weeksie
Oh good. We should crack down on sites like this because you know what was
good for sex trafficking victims? Street pimps.

Sigh.

~~~
Kadin
The California investigation which resulted in the CEO of Backpage getting
arrested (along with two major shareholders, interestingly enough) "was
prompted, in part, by reports from the National Center for Missing and
Exploited Children of thousands of instances of child sex trafficking through
Backpage." [1]

Backpage's management was hiding behind the 3rd-party provisions of the CDA
(and the usual last-defense-of-scoundrels, "free speech" absolutism) but were
helping to edit and revise ads [2,3] to conceal obviously illegal activity.
Thus they were complicit in it.

It's unfortunate, because there's probably a place for a responsibly-managed
online clearinghouse for adult services. But there's no indication that the
management of Backpage was attempting to offer that; they were hiding under a
veil of 'free speech' when it suited them, while at the same time profiting
from activity they should have known was illegal (and beyond illegal, _morally
repugnant_ even to those of us who take no issue with what consenting adults
do between themselves and find prostitution laws outdated and sexist).

[1]: [http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-
way/2016/10/07/497006100/...](http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-
way/2016/10/07/497006100/ceo-of-backpage-com-arrested-charged-with-pimping)

[2]: [http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Justice/2016/1007/Backpage-
CEO-...](http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Justice/2016/1007/Backpage-CEO-arrested-
in-child-trafficking-probe-Why-the-controversy)

[3]:
[https://www.hsgac.senate.gov/subcommittees/investigations/re...](https://www.hsgac.senate.gov/subcommittees/investigations/reports)

~~~
jonlucc
"It's unfortunate, because there's probably a place for a responsibly-managed
online clearinghouse for adult services."

This is interesting, but unfortunately, doing so would probably be illegal, so
it will likely be shady characters doing the work.

------
conductr
There is a lot of $ at stake here. Why would BP not just move operations to
another country with more favorable laws?

~~~
junto
Because the owners are most likely US based. That makes them still targets for
law enforcement, regardless of where the site is hosted.

There is a gap in the market for someone outside the US to offer such a
service, but ideally that country has no extradition laws to the United
States, nor should the owners of that website ever chose to visit the US.

Gambling sites outside the US have experienced exactly this:
[https://www.cato.org/blog/uk-gambling-ceo-arrested-us-
airpor...](https://www.cato.org/blog/uk-gambling-ceo-arrested-us-airport)

~~~
fencepost
> There is a gap in the market for someone outside the US to offer such a
> service,

There may be an even bigger gap for someone outside the US with no need to
actually make a profit to offer such a service. Consider the merits of not
just scanning the equivalent of the Ashley Madison database for sensitive
addresses, but of actually controlling that database and being able to
advertise in areas where you'd like to acquire users?

I think it'd be fascinating to see if a new service springs up and gets
advertised in the DC area.

------
bdcravens
With this added opportunity, how long until it's added to Uber? /s

------
LeMec
It don't think the Gov doing that will make a dent in online prostitution
because everything is set up so quickly online (on a smart phone). They'll
(sex workers) just set up posts in local ads and continue like nothing
happened.

------
clavalle
This is a Very Good Thing.

I know that it is currently in vogue, with the libertarian current in our
society and in the tech world in particular, to ask why prostitution should be
illegal. People should have control over their own bodies, shouldn't they?

Here is the answer: many of the people selling their sexual services are not
in control of their bodies. Beyond the obvious example of people forced into
it by violence, there is also a huge population of people that are trying to
feed themselves, or their kids, or their addictions with very few options to
achieve those ends. That is not liberty.

If it were true that everyone is absolutely free to choose to engage
themselves in such a way with no whiff of active or passive coercion by
individuals or their circumstances, sure, they should have the choice. But
when the choice is 'do this thing or die, or be in pain' that is no real
choice.

This industry needs to connect to customers. Sure, something else might pop
up, but at least there won't be a central repository for a while. Hopefully
that makes it a less viable.

~~~
pavel_lishin
> _there is also a huge population of people that are trying to feed
> themselves, or their kids, or their addictions with very few options to
> achieve those ends._

Should we shut down strip clubs? What about coal mines? Factory jobs where
people lose digits and limbs? Service industries where people are overworked
and underpaid?

~~~
youdontknowtho
There it is. There's the line.

Those things are different and you know it.

EDIT: I would think that libertarians would be more interested in personal
sovereignty than has really been apparent in this thread? At least I thought
there was more to libertarianism than boiling everything down to commercial
transactions.

~~~
wonder_er
> At least I thought there was more to libertarianism than boiling everything
> down to commercial transactions.

One person's "commercial transaction" is another person's "personal choice"

So a libertarian who supports "personal choice" is being logically consistent
by bristling against any limitations put on a "commercial transaction",
because that's one stroke of the pen away from a ban on personal choices.

~~~
youdontknowtho
I disagree.

------
yarou
Does anyone know if this is another Megaupload situation?

Are there records showing the site operators willfully colluded and
incentivized street pimps and sex traffickers? Or is this another "save the
children" chilling effect on free speech?

------
raitom
The US government should implement a regulated alternative like in Germany
with their FKK.

------
gonz702
thing i dont get is why take down the adult jobs and phone and websites
section got paid ads on there guess everyone is sol

