
What is Happening in Istanbul? - bencevans
http://defnesumanblogs.com/2013/06/01/what-is-happenning-in-istanbul/
======
ChrisNorstrom
CNN STORY (with images): [http://www.cnn.com/2013/06/02/world/europe/turkey-
protests/i...](http://www.cnn.com/2013/06/02/world/europe/turkey-
protests/index.html?hpt=hp_t2)

It's now a full blown anti-government riot. The park issue was just the last
straw that set it off.

The original poster was telling the truth now stop arguing about shopping
malls.

~~~
bconway
When I see stories like this, I'm always impressed at the wide availability of
gas masks. Are we even allowed to own those in the States?*

*Yes, I know how sad of a question that is.

~~~
blhack
Of course we're "allowed" to own them in the United States...

Despite what people on reddit, and other fringe internet forums would have you
believe, The United States has some of the strongest personal liberties in the
world.

~~~
wtn
Here are the rules by US state:
<http://www.anapsid.org/cnd/mcs/maskcodes.html>

~~~
e3pi
Do riot police arbitrarily make these rules up on the fly?

13+ years since WTO Battle in Seattle? Melissa Kaplan still cannot find
Washington State wearing gas mask code/regulations?

What is it about Evergreen(Evergray?) Washington State?

Last updated January 13, 2013

State Codes Related To Wearing Masks

Compiled by Melissa Kaplan Need to wear an air filtration mask when you go out
to avoid the effects of fragrances, chemicals, pollens and more?

You may be breaking the law.

Each state has its own code relating to masks (though some states may have no
such code) and/or disguises. In some, you may be okay wearing a filtration or
surgical mask; in others, you may be required to carry a note from your
physician stating that you need to wear the mask for health reasons.

If you find the code section for your state and send me a copy of the section
and language, I will add it to this listing.

.......................

The only thing I could find:

Seattle municipal court judge dismisses WTO gas mask case on February 17,
2000.

On February 17, 2000, a municipal court judge dismisses criminal charges
against a man accused of violating the emergency order prohibiting the
possession of "devices commonly known as gas masks" during the period of
unrest surrounding the World Trade Organization (WTO) meeting which occurred
in late November and early December, 1999, in Seattle.

Mayor Paul Schell had issued an emergency order prohibiting the possession of
gas masks in Seattle except by military and police on December 1, 1999. Later
that day, journalists were allowed to possess gas masks, but the ban did not
extend to firefighters.

Justin Reed of Seattle was arrested at City Hall on the day the ban was signed
when he attempted to attend a City Council hearing called to discuss and
ratify the mayor's order. The judge ruled that prosecutors did not prove that
Reed knew of the ban when he was arrested. The charges were dismissed "with
prejudice" meaning that Reed could not be charged again with the same crime.

As of February 17, 2000, only 24 persons out of more than 600 arrested during
WTO protests were still charged with crimes, including four accused of
violating the gas mask ban.

[http://www.historylink.org/_content/education/index.cfm?Disp...](http://www.historylink.org/_content/education/index.cfm?DisplayPage=output.cfm&file_id=2145)

------
Steko
Via wiki's list of turkish newspapers
(<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_newspapers_in_Turkey>):

<http://www.zaman.com.tr/> Democratic, Islamic, Liberal ENGLISH:
<http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/>

<http://www.posta.com.tr/> Populism

<http://www.hurriyet.com.tr/anasayfa/> Nationalism, Kemalist, Centre-Right
ENGLISH: <http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/>

<http://www.sabah.com.tr/> Liberal Conservatism, Center-Right

<http://www.sozcu.com.tr/> Nationalism, Kemalism, Secular

<http://www.milliyet.com.tr/AnaSayfa/> Kemalist, Nationalist, Secular, Center-
Left

<http://www.haberturk.com/> Nationalism, Conservatism, Right-Wing

<http://www.turkiyegazetesi.com/> Conservatism, Right-Wing

<http://www.stargazete.com/> Liberal Conservatism, Center-Right

<http://www.gazetevatan.com/root.asp> Kemalist, Nationalist, Secular

<http://www.bugun.com.tr/> Conservative-Democrat, Nationalism, Center-Right

<http://www.takvim.com.tr/> Center-Right

<http://www.aksam.com.tr/> Center-Left

<http://yenisafak.com.tr> Islamism, Conservatism, Right-Wing

edit: added some English links above. Also <http://www.goodmorningturkey.com/>

~~~
mseebach
What is the significance of being Kemalist?

~~~
Steko
{I just shuffled wiki's labels around and claim no special knowledge of
Turkey. I'd guess Kemalists, despite their nationalism, would generally
identify more with secular and democratic protestors than with the Islamist
government}

~~~
mseebach
That's roughly where I am, but that's why I asked.

------
quarterto
Loath as I am to cite Buzzfeed, but: the images of the people on the bridge
are not from these protests. They are from the 2012 Istanbul Marathon.
[http://www.buzzfeed.com/hunterschwarz/one-of-the-most-
popula...](http://www.buzzfeed.com/hunterschwarz/one-of-the-most-popular-
photos-from-the-protests-in-turkey-i)

~~~
OoTheNigerian
I did not find a replica of the bridge posted.

Perhaps it is a popular crossing that gets filled up whenever major events are
happening?

~~~
mertd
No, it is a major highway. Pedestrian traffic is are not allowed. Getting on
the bridge as a group of people is very rare and requires significant critical
mass to pull off.

~~~
cdash
Like a major protest?

~~~
mertd
The go-to location for major protests is the Taksim Square, which is four
miles from the bridge by foot. The protests need to be really widespread and
populous to spread to the bridge. I don't remember that happening in my recent
memory (except for a local soccer thing).

------
DeusExMachina
I just went to Youtube, and on the first page there was this video of a
protester overrun by a police tank:
<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sbYQ_dzFniY>

EDIT: it looks to me that at the beginning of the video you can spot the feet
of another person behind him.

~~~
rplnt
I don't think they saw him though. And the shield hopefully saved him.

~~~
DeusExMachina
I looked at the video again. If you look it in slow motion, you can see that
there is another man crouching in the back. Although the man in the front
might not be visible to the tank driver, the one behind should be and has no
shield. Also, just before the impact the tank fires the water cannon in the
exact direction of the two. Might be a coincidence or a proof they saw them.

But even in the event they did not see them, you just don't drive a tank
against a barrier where you don't know if there are people or not.

~~~
itry
> If you look it in slow motion,

There is slow motion on youtube?

~~~
jakub_g
Enable HTML5 trial <http://www.youtube.com/html5> and then on some videos
(non-VEVO etc.) you can control the speed.

~~~
itry
Interesting. I see the speed setting on some videos now. But clicking on them
has no effect. For example when I click on 0.25x the video keeps playing at
normal speed. Im using Iceweasel on Debian 7.

------
mathieuh
The police are basically treating this like war. Remember this the next time
someone says we should treat the police with respect because they're 'just
doing their job'. It's not a stick with a worker at both ends, it a stick with
a worker at one end and the state at the other.

~~~
yekko
It's becoming a civil war.

------
vrodic
Looking at it from a class perspective:

"Erdogan’s vision of Turkey is one full of citizens who piously pray in the
country’s ubiquitous mosques and then go shopping at one of its equally
ubiquitous malls, which are frantically being built in urban areas.

As long as the imports, credit card, and debt-driven Turkish economic bubble
remains intact, the government will continue to pursue these and other
neoliberal policies to the great praise of western think-thanks, private
equity firms, and politicians who all repeat the fallacy of the ‘Turkish
[success] model’.

Notwithstanding these neoliberal economic policies, Erdogan is still extremely
popular among Turkey’s poor and working people in both urban and rural areas.
Most western observers have missed this crucial fact and are, therefore, quick
to enthusiastically compare the Gezi Park protests with the ‘Arab Spring’.

One has only to speak with blue-collar workers in Turkey to understand popular
attitudes toward the government. Whenever I am in Istanbul, I engage in
political small talk with people from various walks of life, including
waiters, construction workers, and young men working on the ferries crossing
the Bosporus. I also frequently visit my family members, who are from a poor
Anatolian background.

In my conversations with these people, I have heard nothing but firm support
for Erdogan. When asked about Turkey’s unemployment rate or the Prime
Minister’s nepotism, most of these individuals do not hesitate to say, “I know
that Erdogan is also ‘siphoning the cash’ (hortumluyorlar). But good for him
(helal olsun). At least he is leaving us some crumbs. The previous bastards
never gave us everything.” Memories of many decades of economic and political
oppression by secular elites are still fresh for many Turks. Because of the
AKP, these people now have access to things like privatized health care,
credit card use, and unprecedented infrastructure development."

[http://muftah.org/why-the-gezi-park-protests-do-not-
herald-a...](http://muftah.org/why-the-gezi-park-protests-do-not-herald-a-
turkish-spring-yet/)

------
idoco
I recommend - <http://occupygezipics.tumblr.com/>

What puzzle me the most, is the voluntary cooperation of the media with the
government. Even if the media does not support this event, how they not cover
it at all? sad, I always thought of Turkey as the most successful example of a
Muslim democratic state.

~~~
claudius
> Muslim democratic state.

There are very, very few religious democracies, and if you only consider those
both officially and effectively religious, I won’t be able to name a single
one.

~~~
markdown
> I won’t be able to name a single one.

UK?

~~~
desas
officially religious but not effectively.

------
saurik
Another explanation, with more detail "on the ground":

[http://www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/1fi07t/im_so_conf...](http://www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/1fi07t/im_so_confused_can_someone_provide_a_clear_cut/caaggt6)

~~~
diminish
and others on quora, [http://www.quora.com/Istanbul/What-is-happening-at-Gezi-
Park...](http://www.quora.com/Istanbul/What-is-happening-at-Gezi-
Park%C4%B1-in-Taksim-Istanbul)

~~~
kmfrk
[http://www.quora.com/Istanbul/What-is-happening-at-Gezi-
Park...](http://www.quora.com/Istanbul/What-is-happening-at-Gezi-Parkı-in-
Taksim-Istanbul?share=1)

Append "?share=1", and the dumbass registration wall goes away.

~~~
wavefunction
System hacking detected! Querystrings are our last defense!

~~~
kmfrk
It's such a weird thing to implement on top of a registration wall.

I imagine it's something friends, VCs, and the tech press were told about, but
the rest of us aren't supposed to use.

~~~
wpietri
No, everybody was told about it. It's an official feature. Because Quora power
users keep bitching up a storm about the registration wall.

It is still a weird thing, though. The Quora management swears that forcing
people to log up makes things better somehow, although they've never been
particularly clear on how that works.

------
pessimism
@Brown_Moses (<https://twitter.com/brown_moses>) is one of the best people to
follow on these subjects.

Eliot is an interesting example of one a single well-connected individual can
accomplish in the digital age: [http://www.indiegogo.com/projects/the-brown-
moses-blog/x/255...](http://www.indiegogo.com/projects/the-brown-moses-
blog/x/2550379).

His feed is a bit of a firehose feed, so I recommend you only follow him,
whenever you need to immerse yourself in an ongoing story.

The things going on in Turkey are so insane, they have to be seen to be
believed.

EDIT: His YouTube playlist with videos of the clashes:
[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zvUktDH-
OBM&list=PLPC0Ude...](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zvUktDH-
OBM&list=PLPC0Udeof3T6EQfTPPnuyek1gNRCTiulH&index=1).

------
api
"These people are my friends. They are my students, my relatives. They have no
«hidden agenda» as the state likes to say. Their agenda is out there. It is
very clear. The whole country is being sold to corporations by the government,
for the construction of malls, luxury condominiums, freeways, dams and nuclear
plants. The government is looking for (and creating when necessary) any excuse
to attack Syria against its people’s will.

On top of all that, the government control over its people’s personal lives
has become unbearable as of late. The state, under its conservative agenda
passed many laws and regulations concerning abortion, cesarean birth, sale and
use of alcohol and even the color of lipstick worn by the airline
stewardesses."

It sounds as if the protestors, if the author is genuine, are protesting
something I call "Singaporification." It's the fusion of authoritarian quasi-
fascist rule with capitalism-- a kind of socially conservative, often (but not
always) religious conservative, but economically neo-liberal state of affairs.
On the surface it sometimes looks theocratic, but in reality it's more of a
dictatorship of gentrification. Religious morality (or sometimes secularized
versions thereof) is used as a facade to condemn any form of social deviancy
and especially to mentally control the lower classes by manipulating their
religious faiths.

(We see the latter in America with the "culture war," which is a way of
distracting the largely-religious working classes while their future is sold
out from under them.)

In conversations with fellow techies, it's disturbed me to what extent many
seem to tacitly support this kind of thing. I've been in many conversations
explicitly praising Singapore -- a country that permits death sentences for
minor infractions -- as a viable model of the future.

The thing that makes Singaporification scary is that it works. The scariest
dystopias are not hideous hellscapes where nobody would want to live, as those
tend to self-destruct or at best persist in tiny enclaves and never catch on.
Who would want to emulate North Korea? But seductive dystopias are dangerous
because they _can_ catch on. Who wouldn't want low crime, clean streets, and a
wonderfully healthy economy? In that sense I find Singapore to be the scariest
dystopia in the world today.

Historical precursors include Franco's Spain. Think of Singaporification as a
gentler, less overtly violent form of Spanish fascism. But as we see if you
openly challenge it, the gloves rapidly come off and your shiny clean utopia
busts out the tanks, tear gas, and death penalty sentences.

Edit: on second thought, it also represents a fusion of liberal nanny-statism,
conservative social authoritarianism, and neo-liberal economics. Government by
and for the uptight, culturally xenophobic urban professional.

As Benjamin Franklin said: those who sacrifice liberty for security and
prosperity deserve neither.

Worth watching: <http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0066434/>

"Buy, and be happy."

If action flicks are more your thing, this is a fun and a bit underrated riff
on the same theme: <http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0106697/>

~~~
enraged_camel
Wow.

I am speechless.

As someone who was born and raised in Turkey, and visited Singapore for long
periods of time, let me say very clearly: _you have absolutely no idea what
you're talking about._

Turkey and Singapore are two completely different worlds, with different
histories, cultures, and geopolitical situations, and are not related in any
shape or form. There may be a _few_ surface-level parallels, but that's where
the similarities end.

I am stunned however that a person who very likely has never even visited
either place (much less lived in them) has the gall to call what Turkey is
going through "Singaporification." I mean, it's not like I haven't noticed the
anti-Singaporean sentiments on HN lately - they don't surprise me, since a lot
of HN folks are white middle/upper-middle class and lean libertarian[1], which
is the exact opposite of Singapore. But using the events in Istanbul as an
opportunity to bash Singapore is just... petty and shameless.

I would love to give you a detailed breakdown of the differences between
Singapore and Turkey, but that would be an essay. I'll highlight a few
important ones.

Singapore is one of the least corrupt countries in the world. Turkey on the
other hand is rampant with corruption, especially the current government.
That's part of the reason why the protests started: the contractor that was
going to build the mall on top of Gezi Park has ties to the Prime Minister,
who was going to profit from it. That's just ONE example.

Singapore is extremely diverse culturally. There are several religions and
languages. As a result, there are often no culturally accepted behaviors. In a
sense, Singapore does not really fit the traditional definition of a nation,
and instead has been called a society in transition. In contrast, Turkey has a
very strong cultural identity rooted deeply in the country's history and
predominant religion, Islam.

The two country's governments are also extremely different. Singapore is a de-
facto one-party state; the dominant party, the PAP, has won every single
general election since the first one. In contrast, Turkey is a multi-party
system, which creates very complex dynamics in the political landscape.

I can go on, but you get the idea. Hopefully.

[1]Table 10 in <http://www.cato.org/sites/cato.org/files/pubs/pdf/pa580.pdf>

~~~
balsam
You know, actually the US isn't that much freer in practice compared to
Singapore. In theory, perhaps. And the reason has less to do with the decline
of rugged individualism amongst soccer moms than the existence of a constant
low-level background threat, whether from terrorism, a sizable underclass, law
enforcement, or (this might be embarassing for some) alcoholism. They don't
check IDs for alcohol in Singapore. If you want to see actual practical
examples of freedom, you have to go to western Europe. However, if you say
that it is the US which makes sacrifices to provide those freedoms, I will
actually agree with you. For the record, I was born and raised in Singapore
and have lived in the US for the last decade.

EDIT: all these debates have the political reek of programming language
wars... US <-> Lisp; Singapore <-> C++.

~~~
WildUtah
_If you want to see actual practical examples of freedom, you have to go to
western Europe._

You have to go where?

[http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/france/1009...](http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/france/10092939/Marine-
Le-Pen-loses-immunity-over-comparing-Islamic-prayers-to-Nazi-occupation.html)

I think if you want to see practical examples of freedom, you can conquer your
own island and start inventing them. No modern nation is going to tolerate
very much of it.

~~~
smutticus
For all its faults the USA has very strong 1st Amendment protections.

I also find it strange that most western European countries outlaw the Nazi
party and denying the holocaust. I suspect this only serves to give them more
legitimacy in the eyes of society's downtrodden. The American model of dealing
with these groups just seems more sustainable. Give them enough room to say
all kinds of stupid things.

Le Pen is an ignorant racist. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't give her
every opportunity to say all the stupid shit she wants to say.

------
manishsharan
I have sympathy for the protesters but I do wish they had protested just as
vehemently when the government began to silence the Press. A Free Press does
not guarantee democracy but it does bark loudly and fiercely when it senses
danger to the democracy.

~~~
tome
I wish they had protested when the government started imprisoning generals,
although admittedly it is harder to get worked up about the army than it is
about the press.

------
grigy
Similar thing happened in Yerevan, Armenia last year, but in a smaller scale.
Group of people protected a park from construction of boutiques. It took
around 2 months and the government finally gave up. There is a wikipedia
article covering the story:
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mashtots_Park_Movement>

------
kposehn
What is currently going on in Turkey is the Islamist ruling party pushing hard
to make the country much more conservative instead of secular, all the while
pushing their way back into the Arab world to regain their clout and power.

The youths are protesting because what was once a fairly liberal set of
standards is rapidly being removed.

Ironically, it was the military that protected this set of freedoms.

~~~
Perceval
There's nothing ironic about that. The military in Turkey have styled
themselves the defenders of Ataturk's constitution, which enshrined certain
"Kemalist" values like secularism, republicanism, and populism. They've
engaged in military coups several times in the history of Turkey in order to
(ostensibly) protect the constitution. In the past they've removed any leader
that was deemed too politically religious.

Erdogan's big accomplishment was to be moderate enough in his political
Islamism that he didn't trigger a military coup. Further, the European Union
disapproved of Turkey's history of military coups, making it clear that they
weren't going to admit a country that relied on military coups to defend its
constitution from democracy. So the military did not remove Erdogan, despite
the AKP's moderate Islamic agenda.

The military is a conservative force in Turkish society insofar as it defends
an interpretation of the constitution and politics rooted in Ataturk's
ideology from the 1920s. But it is not a conservative force in the socially
conservative political Islam sense. You should not be surprised that secular
urban youth and the Turkish military end up on the same side.

~~~
ludwigvan
Good stuff. Though, it is better to say military used to be like that, as
currently, all the generals including the leading general 3 years ago have
been jailed, so indeed military is very powerless now. It is not only that AKP
did not trigger the coup, it is that they learned from the mistakes of their
political ancestors, and this time, crushed the military before moving on to
their real Islamist plans.

------
fatiherikli
Live cam from Taksim, Istanbul <http://rt.com/on-air/turkey-protest-istanbul-
park/>

~~~
MarkHarmon
Error 404 now.

------
antihero
This is disgusting, the "right" to profit/property is the _least_ important
thing, it should _never_ trump people's well-being or the environment.

~~~
claudius
Yet a democratically-elected government made a decision in the name of the
people to replace this park with a shopping mall. People protesting against
that by blocking the construction process (i.e. stand in front of bulldozers
etc.) are effectively overturning democracy in order to protect their personal
interests.

This is a general problem I have with such active counter-protests, be they to
stop a station from being built (Stuttgart 21, [0]) or to block a legitimate
demonstration of right-wing idiots. The rights to free speech, to assemble and
to demonstrate are important, but in my opinion the right to
demonstrate/protest _in a specific location_ does not trump the right of the
majority to implement a democratically made decision or the right of a
minority to voice their opinion.

That said, there are obviously cases were a small minority has the right to
(even violently) protest a decision made by the majority[1], but building a
shopping mall in a park is not one of them.

[0] <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stuttgart_21>

[1] <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_of_revolution> , e.g. Art. 20.4 of
the German Basic Law – does the Turkish constitution have a similar provision?

~~~
carbocation
> People protesting against that by blocking the construction process (i.e.
> stand in front of bulldozers etc.) are effectively overturning democracy in
> order to protect their personal interests.

I think this is getting at the heart of _civil disobedience_ : the violation
of laws or decrees considered unjust.

I know nothing about the Turkish protests, but another example of civil
disobedience is Martin Luther King, Jr. He committed crimes, technically, as
he protested. But I don't think that it makes sense to say that MLK's
protesting == overturning democracy in America. By analogy, it's hard to
imagine civil disobedience in Turkey to be overthrowing democracy there.

~~~
claudius
First let me clarify that instead of ‘overturn’, ‘ignore’, ‘overrule’ or
‘disregard’ might have been better, as I wanted to say that such protests
overrule one particular democratic decision and not necessarily the whole form
of government.

Then, as I said, the matter is difficult – essentially you have to weigh the
predictable functioning of the democratic process against the damage that can
be done to people if this process ‘goes wrong’. Unfortunately, this has a
whole bunch of problems:

\- we do not have a universal definition of when a democratic decision is so
wrong it is acceptable for someone to stand up against it

\- that someone has to judge objectively whether his rights were violated in
such a way that he is justified to stand up against the democratic will

\- in many cases, we do not know what the majority ‘really’ wants

\- even if a given system/constitution has securities that allow people to
stand up against democratically made decisions, these might be seen as either
too lax or too restrictive.

For example, the German constitution would allow the people to overthrow a
democratic government that wants to cut back on social security in such a way
as to violate article 20 of the Basic Law[0] – in the US, on the other hand,
people apparently sometimes feel obliged to oppose a government that wants to
introduce such social security. If even two relatively similar western
societies cannot agree on when it is acceptable to overrule a democratic
decision, how can we expect to find universal rules for that on a global
scale?

In essence, it is a philosophical discussion on how much you respect
democratic decisions as compared to the rights of individuals, and whether or
not you only accept positive law or also include some ‘natural’ law in your
decision-making.

I tend to like both democracy and positive law, but YMMV, of course. :)

[0] It defines Germany as a ‘social federal state’, does not allow to change
that definition, and allows everyone to take up arms against those trying to
change it, provided that all other means have been exhausted.

~~~
carbocation
I don't really see cause for surprise that the US and Germany are politically
different. Without commenting on the merits of either, you described Germany
as a social federal state, while the US is not that (and is known for staunch
proponents of individuality). In that framework I don't find it surprising
that people protest on opposite sides of an issue in the two countries. (This
is meant to be something of a logical statement, not a political one.)

I don't think that the nature of civil disobedience is disregarding laws. To
the contrary, I think it can be found in regarding laws very carefully and
choosing when and how to break such laws for maximum impact; then, by freely
suffering the consequences for even greater impact. (This is a general point;
I do not mean to imply that the Turkish protests are civil disobedience; I
don't know enough yet to judge.)

------
berkay
One of the more hackernews relevant aspects of this event is the role of the
media. Turkey has a very robust media, with dozens of TV stations and
newspapers, yet there are no laws preventing the media from participating
other commercial activities, or owning both newspapers and TV stations, etc.
In fact, most of the media is owned by large corporations. Add to this the
large role the government plays in the economy, it's almost inevitable that
media is corrupt and avoids going against the government.

Even with that background, the reporting by the mainstream media about the
events of the last couple of days has been a disgrace, and social media is
filling the void.

The following is the most insightful analysis I've seen on this topic "Is
there a Social-Media Fueled Protest Style? An Analysis From #jan25 to
#geziparki "<http://technosociology.org/?p=1255>

~~~
tome
Turkey does not (currently) have a robust media. It has a very high rate of
incarceration of journalists.

~~~
berkay
Not really what I refer to by robust media. I'd say 200+ private TV stations,
hundreds of radio stations, 40+ national daily papers qualify to call it
"robust". IMO high number of incarcerated journalists is more reflection on
the government that ,though democratically elected, does not seem to
understand you can't really have democracy without respecting individual
rights and freedoms.

------
guelo

      "There is now a menace which is called Twitter," Erdogan 
      said. "The best examples of lies can be found there. To me, 
      social media is the worst menace to society."
    

I've been surprised by the amount of control the government has over the
media. I always thought of Turkey as being more liberal.

~~~
wavefunction
People (and countries) can change, especially when people who are interested
in changing a country gravitate to power. The only guarantee of our freedoms
in a modern civil society is our continued vigilance and active participation
in it.

~~~
muhuk
When he was doing his first campaign, Erdogan portrayed himself a liberal.
Even after he became president he distanced himself from his old
fundamentalist islam friends and followed relatively liberal politics.

Oh, also he had portrayed himself as a victim. This is the achilles heel of
Turkish people. They love you unconditionally if they think you are victim. (I
am Turkish)

AFAIK, general population is no more or no less liberal compared to 10 years
ago. Honestly they weren't/aren't quite liberal.

------
cdwhite
Hürriyet, a left-leaning English-language daily, is covering the protests (and
Erdoğan's response, the resulting politicking, and so on):
<http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/>

I should note that Hürriyet is historically quite unfriendly to Erdoğan; in
particular (IIRC) it raised quite a bit of noise when Doğan Holdings, which
owns Hürriyet, underwent tax fraud investigations that may have been
politically motivated.

------
yk
Can someone perhaps comment on the alleged use of agent orange? [1] From my
limited knowledge of chemical weapons ( in lack of a better word), it is an
deforestation chemical, and has no direct use for riot control. So currently
my take is, that this is a rumor, since its use would better fit into the
narrative than into a plausible police strategy.

[1] for example:
[http://www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/1fi07t/im_so_conf...](http://www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/1fi07t/im_so_confused_can_someone_provide_a_clear_cut/caaggt6)

(from saurik's comment)

~~~
mcintyre1994
I'd find Agent Orange hard to believe, given that it did a bit more than
deforestation in Vietnam. The Redditor describes it as "a derivative of the
Vietnam era deforestation chemical Agent Orange. It is incredibly toxic and
forbidden by the UN after the horrific effects it had on both the Vietnamese
and Americans exposed to it.", but derived from could mean anything really.

I'd find it hard to believe that anything closely resembling it is used by any
sane police force, that seems like it would be classified as chemical warfare?

~~~
pathy
my memory is a bit hazy but wasn't the most dangerous part of agent orange the
fact that it was contaminated with very toxic dioxins rather than the toxic
properties of 'clean' agent orange?

Why would Turkey resort to chemical warfare when they don't have to, why risk
the wrath of the international community when you can 'just' use tear gas and
such?

~~~
ars
Yes, you are correct. The active ingredient in Agent Orange is routinely in
use for weed control.

> > It is incredibly toxic and forbidden by the UN after the horrific effects
> it had on both the Vietnamese and Americans exposed to it.

It's not forbidden by the UN, the active ingredient is 2,4-D and is the 3rd
most used herbicide in america.

The other ingredient 2,4,5-T is non toxic, but making it commonly contaminates
it with the very toxic 2,3,7,8.

~~~
mcintyre1994
Thanks for the explanation, I wasn't aware of that. When they say it's a
derivative, they probably mean closer to that herbicide then?

I still haven't heard anything about it actually being used there, but would
that seem at all reasonable to you? A police force that uses tear gas and
don't want to kill people, would they plausibly use such a derivative for the
same purpose?

~~~
ptaipale
"When they say it's a derivative, they probably mean closer to that herbicide
then?"

When they say it's a derivative, they most probably mean that they saw
something orange, and that is why they call it Agent Orange. Unfortunately,
the average person seeing teargas is fairly ignorant about chemistry and
biology. It makes no sense to spread a herbicide in a demonstration. It is
harmful in the long term but has no impact on people in the short term, thus
is just no use in that situation.

Agent Orange was called AO because the containers it came in had an orange
strip. The substance itself is colourless, just like the same herbicides
today. And is not particularly toxic to humans, the problem in Vietnam was
trace amounts of dioxin in manufacturing the 2,4,5-T component.

------
cjc1083
Tear gas and Water cannons are the best non-lethal methods for crowd control
available... honestly I think the turkish police are doing a good a job at
controlling this as possible.

All the media and reddit pictures are from the side of the protesters, a few
pictures of people who get knocked in the head with a tear gas container !=
cops beating and shooting innocent people as they would have you believe.

Also from empirical evidence as an American who spent two weeks in Istanbul
last year I've found the city and police to be totally welcoming and open ...
to include bar crawls around taksim, walking 20 miles on foot through every
nieghborhood in the city, to visiting some of the holiest artifacts in Islam
at topkapi palace.

I'd like to see the other side of this... I understand the government has been
culling the ranks of the top military to weaken their influence and push the
Islamist agenda.. I do, but that said, turkey is not syria or iraq, it is a
large cosmopolitan and wonderful country I would hate to see it destroyed.

Edit: I'll add for reference if it matters I'm a large, shaved headed and
tattooed, obviously american man, who was a solo traveler.

~~~
swift
Tear gas canisters are "non-lethal", perhaps, but that's not the bar I think
should be set. An example of the kind of thing that can happen:

[http://gothamist.com/2010/06/01/cooper_union_student_loses_e...](http://gothamist.com/2010/06/01/cooper_union_student_loses_eye_in_w.php)

------
rth
The folk need your support right now, may be tomorrow will be late. 30 minutes
ago the president Erdogan gave a spech in television. He calling twitter "a
piece of shit", because the folk organizing, talking about him and reality in
twitter (for sure there is fake news also but if he did not bought the turkish
media than we won't need twitter, twitter is only option for now), even his
voters commenting on twitter, the politics people are unbelievable.

How to help: Even sending a picture, with your city name and a support message
(even only a support message) may be will change his mind. Please send your
tweet with support message and #direngeziparki #direnturkiye or #direnankara
hash tags. (which means in order "resist gezi park", "resist turkey", "resist
ankara". gezi park is the start point of the protest, Ankara is (the captial)
city where cops hitting people right now)

Even writing in your language will help us to reach more people. You could
write whatever you think about "fascism". For sure he got 50% vote, but it
does not mean he will not listen the other 50%.

------
oakaz
Darth Vader entering the war zone:
[https://twitter.com/yigitkilinc7/status/341139175782891520/p...](https://twitter.com/yigitkilinc7/status/341139175782891520/photo/1)

------
juandopazo
The New York Times reporting on Istanbul
[http://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/02/world/europe/despite-
prote...](http://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/02/world/europe/despite-protests-
turkey-vows-to-push-ahead-with-plans-for-
square.html?pagewanted=2&_r=0&ref=global-home&pagewanted=all)

------
Jun8
I've been following the events since the beginning (in fact I was there at the
solitary meeting in Chicago yesterday:
[http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/breaking/chi-
local-...](http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/breaking/chi-local-
demonstration-supports-turkey-protests-20130601,0,5732219.story)), so let me
summarize what's been going on. However, if you have time to read just a
single post, read this (<http://technosociology.org/?p=1255>) spot on analysis
instead of my comment.

First, it's not an Istanbul thing anymore, many Turkish cities, especially
Izmir and Ankara witnessed large protests and clashes with the police in the
past couple of days.

On paper, this started with a small group of protesters sitting in the park to
stop its demolition and cutting down the trees on Monday. That evening and at
5am on Tuesday morning they were violently attacked by the police. The attacks
continued on Wednesday. The appalling police brutality unfortunately is
nothing new in Turkey but this time it triggered an unexpected reaction from a
wide swath of people.

People's discontent with AKP has been rising for some time, although they have
provided a stable economy for the past 10 years. Some of the recent events
have really notched it up, though, e.g.:

* The fact that government made no official plans to celebrate the May 19th holiday, which is an important day in the creation of the Turkish Republic (mirroring their approach to the October 29th holiday, which is like July 4th for Turkey)

* Lack of adequate response from PM Erdogan to the bombing in Reyhanli. Rather than cancel his visit to the US to visit the town, he went with his original plan. A lot of people thought that he brought such terrorist activities on Turkey due to his agressive rhetoric on Essad and his strong support of the dissidents there.

* The recent ban on the sale of alcohol between 10pm and 6am ([http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/may/31/turkey-alcohol-l...](http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/may/31/turkey-alcohol-laws-istanbul-nightlife)). This was an unheard-of move that angered a lot of people, not because Turkey consumes a lot of alcohol but it was interpreted as a step to the Islamic Law.

What really surprised me (and I witnessed many a protest and a few military
coups there) was the exponential growth of the protest and its apolitical
nature. Before, people used to write the usual leftist slogans on the walls,
this time there were a lot of funny graffiti about Erdogan, the police and the
pepper gas (examples at [https://eksisozluk.com/gezi-parki-isgali-duvar-
yazilari--385...](https://eksisozluk.com/gezi-parki-isgali-duvar-yazilari--
3858340), for Turkish readers).

Due to the wide use of social media there were some disinfomation as expected,
spread around by excited people, e.g. that the police was using Agent Orange.
This was due to the China-like complacency of the Turkish media. In fact, when
CNN International was transmitting live from the riots in Istanbul CNN Turk
was running a documentary about penguins! The reason for this is two-fold: the
intimidation of reporters in the past 2-3 years (e.g. see the OdaTV case,
where the owner of a TV station and reporters were swiftly jailed with scant
evidence when they criticized the government:
[http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/28/world/europe/soner-
yalcin-...](http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/28/world/europe/soner-yalcin-owner-
and-editor-of-odatv-freed-from-prison.html?_r=0)). The other reason is the
financial blackmail that the government exercises over large media
conglomerates, e.g. when the Dogan group got a colossal $2.3B tax fine in
2009.

~~~
mda
I read, listened hundreds of things about events, but honestly, all I see is
vague hand wavy things about the real cause. "Lack of adequate response.. No
official plans to celebrate May 19.. No alcohol sale after 10pm.." Seriously?
I maen really?, To me this this whole mess seems to be reduced to "Hey police
pepper sprayed my friend yesterday, and btw I also hate this government and
PM. I am going in." reaction.

~~~
makmanalp
Let me give you a quick chronology of what happened. It was a peaceful sit in
in May 27th to 30th. On the 30th at 5am, police walked in and tear gassed
protestors and burned their tents. Strike #1.

People gathered back at 1pm, and did yet another peaceful sit in. Protestors
red eachother and the police books, sang songs. Police attacked them yet again
with tear gas and pressurized water. Strike #2.

They kept doing do over and over again for the next few days even though the
protestors STILL were not causing damage. Strike #3.

They, "unknown" civilian groups were photographed, carrying sticks and beating
people while the police is holding them. Police beating people. Police aiming
with tear gas guns at people and hitting them with it at close range (can
cause severe trauma by the sheer speed of the canister), and then dancing
afterwards in joy. Strike #4.

Also, you seem to be a Turkish speaker, so you know the significance of all
those things that you're saying "Seriously?" to. Trivializing it won't help.

~~~
mda
I am not trivializing, I am away from the country for long time, I am really
trying to understand. So from what you wrote I think that you agree with me,
they are mainly rioting because police is using excessive force to rioters?

------
joshuahedlund
One of the most challenging aspects of learning about important, under-
reported events is correcting for the biases of individuals who are reporting
on it

For example, while there are no doubt many shopping malls in Istanbul, I doubt
there is "at least one in every neighborhood!" (unless that word is better
translated as something more like a suburb)

This makes it harder to trust all of the details of the more serious accounts
of police aggression, or the simplifed context of things like "The whole
country is being sold to corporations by the government". As another commenter
has pointed out, even photos can end up being from unrelated events.

This is not to say that this person's perspective is not extremely important,
or that the Turkish state is not committing indefensible acts of aggression.
It's just harder for outsiders to piece together a full and accurate picture
of what is happening. Fortunately, multiple individual perspectives can help
corroborate and enhance the picture to quite a degree.

Edit: Certainly media has biases too, although there are at least in theory
standards for verifying reported facts, and the bias is (often) more about
what they choose not report or what context is not given.

Edit: good points by buro as well. This account and others may well be very
reliable, I'm more speaking from experience with past events that were
reported in similar ways where key important facts turned out to be wrong or
missing. (I know, that happens sometimes in traditional media too)

~~~
buro9
Sure but some things are quite easily researchable online. You doubt that
there is a mall in every neighbourhood, but a quick look on Google Maps:
[http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?q=shopping+mall&hl=en&...](http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?q=shopping+mall&hl=en&ll=41.041556,29.036007&spn=0.13012,0.098705&sll=41.041556,29.00322&sspn=0.13012,0.164108&hq=shopping+mall&t=m&z=13)

And yup, there are a phenomenal number of shopping malls, some only a couple
of hundred meters from another.

I did spot check quite a few, looked at a few of the websites, and they are
all multi-level, large shopping malls.

In fact this one is a mere 300m from Gezi Park:
<http://www.demirorenistiklal.com/>

The great thing about the internet is that it is possible to get a sense of
whether a claim is true or not very swiftly.

On the one fact you doubt and then use as an example to undermine the rest of
the argument, a quick search verifies that claim. (Should you revisit the
doubt you extended to the rest of the argument in light of some evidence to
the claims that you used to undermine it?)

Of course there is emotion in there too (the government selling the nation to
corporations), but we're mostly rational and will spot that surely.

The fundamental question is whether or not the reports in general speak of a
true event, and overwhelmingly they do appear so. The level of consistency in
the very many reports and sources is too much to be attributable and dismissed
as any individual being emotional... of course they are emotional; some of
their friends, family and fellow citizens are dead, others are in hospital or
jail.

~~~
glurgh
Just because you can type them into google doesn't mean they're 'easily
researchable'. How many shopping malls in NYC?

[https://maps.google.com/maps?q=shopping+mall&hl=en&l...](https://maps.google.com/maps?q=shopping+mall&hl=en&ll=40.730348,-73.993092&spn=0.074277,0.119648&sll=40.714476,-74.005966&sspn=0.074295,0.119648&gl=us&hq=shopping+mall&t=m&z=13)

These results seem pretty lousy and not particularly different from those from
Istanbul.

~~~
iaskwhy
Well, I've been to both cities for two weeks and I didn't find any mall in NYC
(I'm sure there must be some, I just didn't find them) while in Istanbul they
are really everywhere, you cannot ignore them if not only because they are
usually guarded by security people with riffles. Here's a list:
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_shopping_malls_in_Istan...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_shopping_malls_in_Istanbul)

They are usually huge. I was very surprise because in my home country,
Portugal, we used to believe we had a lot of malls (we do) but Istanbul is
just unbelievable.

Back to Istanbul, in Levent (near the financial district) you can have three
right next to each other. On one of my stays there my hotel was actually
around the corner from one of this malls.

~~~
glurgh
I don't have any trouble believing there are many malls in Istanbul. I do have
some trouble believing you can reasonably answer whether they are too many by
just checking on the internet. In fact, as you point out, it's possible to
visit NYC and not notice how many there are.

I also have some difficulty with the idea that people are heading out to the
streets, risking life and limb, in multiple cities across Turkey just because
of a mall in Istanbul.

The notion that we can figure this out just by hitting google maps seems
obviously wrong.

~~~
mpyne
Well, this exact crisis has been on Reddit for a couple of days and I even saw
it on BBC News's online front page last night. I can't tell you exactly why
people are doing it but it certainly sounds like a demonstration against a
shopping mall was the spark.

~~~
glurgh
Oh that part seems plausible. The bit that seems like over-reaching is that we
can easily and quickly gain some insight into the situation by hitting google
maps. Mohamed Bouazizi's suicide sparked popular protests in Tunisia and
subsequently, across the middle east. Is there a lot we can learn about the
Arab Spring by googling 'street vendors, Ben Arous'? Probably not.

------
pknerd
The funniest thing is that US is _worried_ about protest. Ahem, someone should
remind Administration about Occupy Wall Street and violent moves by Obama
Administration.

~~~
ptaipale
I don't there's anything funny. You may think that the Turkish government is
your enemy, but your enemy's enemy is not necessarily your friend.

Take the Arab Spring: is there more liberty, better law, better civil rights
in the countries where the dictators were overthrown? I'm unclear on that, and
certainly some places have moved from secular, predictable dictatorship to a
very unpredictable, unstable situation.

------
coverband
Let's shift the conversation _away from_ Singapore and towards what's
happening in Turkey (not just Istanbul anymore, in fact, there have been many
protests abroad in support).

The original protest was about the ruling party abusing their majority at the
polls in such a way that they didn't feel bothered to listen to any opposing
view or legitimate concern.

After the unjust and extremely heavy-handed police response, the original
protest turned into something much larger, with new support from concerned
regular citizens. In fact, since the police response has not become any
better, some of the people that voted for the ruling party seem to have
changed their positions in support of the protesters.

As a result, I think the Turkish PM lost whatever credibility he had abroad,
along with his perceived role as a mediator for the Syrian conflict. I hope
these demonstrations conclude in a peaceful way and cause Erdogan to rethink
his (obviously limited) understanding of how democracy should work. If not,
I'm afraid the country may not be able to hold off the fraction of the Turkish
military that would want to step in and take over once again.

------
dougk16
Coincidentally, I've noticed the same thing happening in Szczecin, Poland as
per the shopping mall phenomenon. I lived there from 2005-2008, and there were
a few shopping malls, nothing crazy. Every 1-2 years I've gone back, there has
been at least one or two new major shopping malls put up, and that's just in
the few places I frequent around the city center.

Besides the philosophical question of whether it's a good thing for a city, I
just don't understand the economics of it. How do all these places coexist?
Where does the demand and up-front money come from? Is there actually real
demand at all, or is it just completely manufactured/delusional (build it and
they will come!)? When I lived there, people's shopping needs seemed
fulfilled, and the population has flatlined since then [1]. I heard tell of
some EU grants involved. Overall, it just doesn't seem sustainable from an
economic perspective, even in the short-term.

[1] [http://www.citypopulation.de/php/poland-
zachodniopomorskie.p...](http://www.citypopulation.de/php/poland-
zachodniopomorskie.php?cityid=3262011)

~~~
Noxchi
What if it's just corruption? Maybe a political person having one built by a
construction company he has financial ties to.

------
beyti
main cause: block the destruction of a historical park

Thousands of people of all ages gathered without any formal notice, just by
friend to friend, neighbour to neighbour; didn't allow provocation; resisted
days of assault; assured the security of the park; almost all of the other big
cities supported by protesting; protesters cleaned up their own mass, junks
collected;

I guess this is a simple description without political adds.

------
CurtMonash
There are a number of defended buildings & complexes near Taksim. Consulates
galore; a military hospital on Inonu Caddessi that has a bunch of sandbagged
positions on it, along w/ more conventional guardposts; etc. And there's a
military museum on the edge of the park, right next to where dozens of cats
happily live.

Any of those places reporting troubles? Or is it all in the streets and park
itself?

~~~
cdash
Not really, there was a video of police showing up at a military guarded
position that tried to order them around and force them to let them have
access. They told the guards that they will be forced to shoot tear gas at
them if they don't comply and the military told them we have things we can
shoot at you too and then the police left. The military is not really taking
any action and the protests are not upset with the military as the military
has been the secular force in Turkey for a long time and has staged coups
before to keep it so.

~~~
CurtMonash
Sounds consistent with other reports I've seen -- the protests haven't morphed
into a general riot. cf. the photos of protesters cleaning up Istiklal Street
when they finish. (Istiklal is the premier historical consulate/shopping
street of central Istanbul, ending in Taksim Square. A bit disappointing to
tourist on, actually, but a big deal even so.)

------
mpowel
Here are some links that may help you see what is happening in Istanbul...
Turkey is turning into a viloent police state... Thats whats happening!

 __* Evidence collection site for police
violence:<http://delilimvar.tumblr.com/>

 __* Police and pro-government militia attacking innocent
people:<http://pic.twitter.com/QTunT6irOF>

[http://f.cl.ly/items/263f2A3T0b093I2D0r2G/alsancak%2002.06.2...](http://f.cl.ly/items/263f2A3T0b093I2D0r2G/alsancak%2002.06.2013.mp4)

[http://24.media.tumblr.com/339ecfc6a17e0d372896dcf1065672b6/...](http://24.media.tumblr.com/339ecfc6a17e0d372896dcf1065672b6/tumblr_mns0nrMBPQ1su2tnjo1_500.jpg)

 __* Streets and residential areas indiscriminately turned into gas
chambers:<http://youtu.be/WaDT1KPEuB8>

<http://pic.twitter.com/0RogcpOIUV>

~~~
muhuk
* Photos: <http://occupygezipics.tumblr.com/>

* More photos: <http://geziyardim.com/>

* [Turkish] Live feeds: <http://www.geziparkicanli.com/>

------
AlphaSquared
A friend of mine who's currently honeymooning in Istanbul says the riots are
mostly regarding the laws against the sale and use of alcohol........

Him and his wife were caught in the midst of a riot and teargassed. They saw
tons of public urination and most of the protestors are 25 or younger and
drunk + smashing beer glasses all over...

~~~
sampo
Here is video of very well-behaved protesters from a Turkish inland city,
Eskişehir: <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=enHoMtf_2g8>

------
cangencer
There is a lot of misguided information floating around. I think this is the
most objective article I've read so far. [http://www.al-
monitor.com/pulse/originals/2013/06/istanbul-p...](http://www.al-
monitor.com/pulse/originals/2013/06/istanbul-protests-who-are-protesters-
turkey.html)

------
woodchuck64
> The government is looking for (and creating when necessary) any excuse to
> attack Syria against its people’s will.

Wait, I thought Syria/Assad is the bad guy. The Turkish people support Assad
but the Turkish government doesn't? Now I'm confused.

~~~
ars
The internal factions and politics in that part of the world a not easy to
understand from little snippets you read on the internet.

And the "people" don't always support things that a western person would agree
with. People always assume that if there is a popular revolt it would always
be in the direction of democracy and secularism - it's not so at all.

Don't support a popular revolt just because it's by the populace. Support it
if you think it's right. And if you don't understand the situation then
reserve judgment.

------
mtts
Ok. So how's about this. Istanbul is, and always has been, the most secular
city in Turkey. Not Erdogan's base of power at all. Erdogan proposes to tear
down a park near a location the inhabitants of Istanbul consider to be central
to their identity as secular westerners (Taksim square). Revolt ensues, police
reaction is excessive. Awful, of course, but hardly an event that will change
the course of Turkish history.

Isn't this what is going on? Terrible if you're a native of Istanbul, but
hardly something to worry about if you're one of the 50 million Turks that
doesn't live in Istanbul and doesn't share that city's liberal standards?

------
brownbat
So many questions...

How does a NIMBY protest turn into Tiananmen Square? Does someone in
government actually say, "They don't want malls? THEN GIVE THEM TANKS!!!"

Why would a government that has "sold out to corporations" restrict the sale
of lipstick and alcohol?

~~~
omni
> Why would a government that has "sold out to corporations" restrict the sale
> of lipstick and alcohol?

Governments are groups of people that are at least partially restrained by the
wills and opinions of other, much larger groups of people. People are very
complex. If you are expecting the government to have rules that it follows
100% of the time, you will be disappointed.

A rule such as restricting lipstick sales is something that is mostly
inconsequential that the government can still point to and say "See, we don't
just blindly do what megacorps tell us to!"

~~~
AnthonyMouse
>A rule such as restricting lipstick sales is something that is mostly
inconsequential that the government can still point to and say "See, we don't
just blindly do what megacorps tell us to!"

What it really does is to keep the government in power by pandering to
extremists. Rational and well-informed people don't respond well to the
imposition of corporate oligarchy. If that's what you intend to do, you've
lost the support of those people. Now you need the support of someone else.
Religious extremists fit the bill nicely, because although hardly anyone will
actually prefer corporate oligarchy, there are people who place more value on
"conservative values" than they do on economics, so you ban some lipstick and
you restrict abortions and those people support you no matter what else you
do.

You see the same thing with the Republican party in the US.

------
yskchu
One from new yorker :
[http://m.newyorker.com/online/blogs/newsdesk/2013/06/occupy-...](http://m.newyorker.com/online/blogs/newsdesk/2013/06/occupy-
taksim-police-against-protesters-in-istanbul.html)

------
jcrites
I was curious to learn the current status, so I looked through Turkish news
sites. According to Hurriyet Daily News, the project to demolish the park has
been suspended:

"Court suspends planned Artillery Barracks project to replace Gezi Park. An
administrative court has suspended the conversion project in the lung of
Istanbul."

[http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/court-suspends-planned-
arti...](http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/court-suspends-planned-artillery-
barracks-project-to-replace-gezi-park.aspx?pageID=238&nID=48006&NewsCatID=341)

~~~
cdash
Too late, the protest is no longer about the park.

------
saejox
Many local shops are looted by the protestors. Cars turned, stones thrown
etc... So much for peaceful a protest. Mayoral election is less than a year
away. Protest with your votes, not your fists.

~~~
markdown
It didn't start that way. It started peacefully. The government escalated the
situation when they tear-gassed peaceful protestors.

Once the government starts attacking its people, all bets are off... emotion
will trump reason and bad shit happens, often to innocent bystanders or
property in the vicinity.

~~~
mseebach
No, this is a coward's excuse.

The police "attacking" is NOT a free pass to turn cars, throw stones or loot
shops. You are always ultimately responsible for you own actions, and you're
also responsible for being associated with bad actions if you stand by quietly
when they are going on.

~~~
markdown
> No..

What are you disagreeing with? I didn't state a position on the matter, or at
least didn't intend to.

> The police "attacking" is NOT a free pass to turn cars, throw stones or loot
> shops.

Yes of course; I never stated that it was.

That behavior however, is a predictable occurrence when there is enough anger
in a mob and herd mentality kicks in.

~~~
mseebach
> It didn't start that way. It started peacefully.

OK. But as it did not end peacefully, not really relevant.

> The government escalated the situation when they tear-gassed peaceful
> protestors.

How is this relevant except to excuse the behaviour? The protesters didn't
respond to the escalation by consolidating their resolve and standing their
ground, they started destroying random people's property.

> Once the government starts attacking its people, all bets are off... emotion
> will trump reason and bad shit happens, often to innocent bystanders or
> property in the vicinity.

You indicate that the government bear the responsibility for this "bad shit"
happening. They might _trigger_ it, in the same way a big row _triggers_ that
someone hits someone else.

Edit: I'm pretty sure that what's going on isn't that random peaceful
protesters turned violent, but rather that this protest, like most other
protests bound to clash with the police, is "anarchist" catnip. These
troublemakers will turn up under the guise of being part of a legitimate,
peaceful protest, and at the first sliver of police yielding power, they'll
let go and start their regular regiment of vandalism and violence. I'm no sure
what the best response is for the legitimate peaceful protesters in this case,
though.

~~~
Ygg2
Or the government sneaked in their people to delegitimize the protesters. This
is a well known way police or covert agencies work.

Usually if protesters are well versed in such tactics the ring of strongest
forms the ring around rest of the mass to protect them from interlopers that
would give police a provocation they needed to attack the protesters or to
delegimitize them.

~~~
mseebach
How very convenient. Hand-wave it away: Maybe the police did it.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

~~~
Ygg2
I know it second hand from an acquaintance that studied Philosophy in
Belgrade, Serbia. According to him it was spoken by Dragoljub Micunovic during
the student protest in Belgrade during the 90-ties. This is something
Milosevic was fond of doing to discredit the student protest.

I know this acquaintance had no reason to lie to me, it came up in regular
conversation. I don't have any archive material to corroborate but I could try
to find something.

~~~
mseebach
Oh, I'm sure it's happened in many places. But that doesn't make it an any
less extraordinary claim that that explains what happened in Gezi, given the
spontaneous nature of the protests. Also, by all accounts, police moved in on
peaceful (if illegally congregated) protesters. The point of instigating is
that you can paint the protest as violent _before_ you move in.

------
cancan
I also jotted down a couple words on the background to these protests if
anyone is interested.

<http://duruk.net/turkish-protests-of-2013/>

------
capkutay
The situation is really unfortunate because its such a beautiful country and
the young generation is pretty incredible. People are usually blown away by
how beautiful Istanbul is, along with many other parts of the country.

What's worst is that Erdogan is a strong-arm leader who most likely won't be
going away anytime soon. The best hope for these protesters is that the
opposition party gets their act together, which I see no evidence of; they've
had the same idiot running against Erdogan for as long as I can remember.

------
kolistivra
"Twitter is the biggest headache of societies" ~Recep Tayyip Erdogan

------
ichinaski
Some images: [http://onedio.com/haber/gezi-parki-eyleminden-dehset-
veren-f...](http://onedio.com/haber/gezi-parki-eyleminden-dehset-veren-
fotograflar-116604)

------
kenster07
I am impressed by the arrogance of some of the commenters here, who seem to
believe that they understand the totality and diversity of human nature and
cultures.

------
iz
Stop lie about Turkey <https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BLwbtR7CUAASWSe.jpg:large>

------
hik13
This is ridiculous. These synthetic news making to top of HN. Let me wrap up
the situation very shortly: You know Ingress? That alternate reality game,
yes. Scribbles like this are alternate reality too, so they have tie-ins with
reality. But unlike Ingress, they are so far off from reality and so
illogical; they are neither compelling nor fun! BTW, I'm writing this from the
peaceful Turkey :)

------
bdaver
Watch this : <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cqIiWHMnM94>

------
ankitml
Very less covered in India too - I see only firstpost having a story on this.
Even the largest paper - TOI has not even mentioned turky on their homepage.

[http://www.firstpost.com/world/protesters-defiant-as-
turkey-...](http://www.firstpost.com/world/protesters-defiant-as-turkey-
unrest-goes-into-third-day-834053.html)

~~~
claudius
In comparison, Die Zeit[0] (liberal) has a number of articles currently in
slot three of the homepage (slot one is describing floods), Die Süddeutsche[1]
(liberal/left) in slot four (they’re based in Munich, so the most important
bit is apparently football) and FAZ[2] (conservative) around slot three, too,
where slot one is about education. No idea what their printed edition looked
like (SZ and FAZ are daily newspapers, Die Zeit is a weekly one). The German
word for Turkey is Türkei.

[0] <http://www.zeit.de/index>

[1] <http://www.sueddeutsche.de/>

[2] <http://www.faz.net/>

------
nekojima
Two of the Facebook pages with continuous updates:

<https://www.facebook.com/geziparkidirenisi> (330,000 Likes in less than 72
hours)

<https://www.facebook.com/OccupyGezi>

------
oakaz
<http://occupygezipics.tumblr.com>

[https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.459147254177879.10...](https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.459147254177879.1073741824.100002478261619&type=1)

------
hcarvalhoalves
I just hope Turkey doesn't end like another country where the people die in
the hand of the government while the international community watch with their
hands folded because it's on their best interest to destroy another muslin
country - like Syria.

------
nanch
Who specifically is responsible for the government's actions? What can we do
to assist?

------
cdooh
Aljezera has had this story in their line-up for a couple f days now, not sure
what they said about it because I wasn't overly concerned. Nothing on BBC
though. So atleast one international news organisation is getting the word
out.

~~~
alan_cx
Nothing?

<http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-22744728>
<http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-22744895>
<http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-22740506>
<http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-20028295>
<http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-22740038>

Why would you say something so absolute with out even checking? Are you one of
those weirdo instant BBC haters?

~~~
cdooh
It wasn't in the news, atleast that I saw. It wasn't a headlining on TV

------
ajays
To follow along, there's also Flickr and a search for "Istanbul" and "Gezi" :
[https://www.flickr.com/search/?q=istanbul+gezi&s=rec](https://www.flickr.com/search/?q=istanbul+gezi&s=rec)

------
joeblau
Thanks for filling me in. I was walking down Market Street yesterday and about
100 people were protesting with signs. I couldn't understand what they were
saying nor could I read their signs as most weren't in English.

------
yekko
It's civil unrest, with an upgrade to civil war, revolution possible.

------
pknerd
By the way, can anyone tell me how a _Revolution_ or occupation anywhere in
the world has any link with _Hacking_ that the news featured on HN?

~~~
jetblackio
What? I'm not sure I understand what you are trying to say. Might want to edit
it to make it clearer.

Anyway, I think you are wondering why this news is on Hackernews. I'd say it's
because there are a lot of politically conscience people here, who care about
what's going on in the world.

One point I think people miss is that the content of this site does not
necessarily have to be related to tech (though usually is). I personally come
here for the discussion that results from the submissions, and world news like
this is important to me. And I'd like to be able to discuss the news/situation
with other people of similar educations, vocations and mindsets.

~~~
pknerd
Hackers are Humans as I know so they have interest in other stuff as well,
does this mean we will be expecting posts about Justin Bieber and Lady Gaga in
near future?

~~~
Apocryphon
If they have the certain je ne sais quoi to attract enough views and upvotes,
sure. For what it's worth, not every non-tech related political, financial, or
social news article hits the front page. Certainly at most times there may be
one to three non-tech focused news story on the front page, but that's usually
the limit. And this particular story is at least tangentially related to tech,
what with the prominent role social media is playing in the ongoing events.

------
drac89
<http://showdiscontent.com> \--- here is some pictures about what happening..

------
saurabhnanda
Why don't people identify the policemen and make their social life (outside of
their police duty) a living hell. Bully their kids in school, boycott their
spouses, refuse to do any kind of business with them (no groceries, no milk,
etc.)

At some point people have to be held personally responsible for their wrong
doings. They shouldn't be absolved of personal responsibility just because
they're in the police force, which is being commanded by some nutcrack
dictator.

~~~
code51
Did their children do any wrong? Since when did you start to punish other
people instead? You'll also want to "mark their houses" at some point...

Please think before you write such things. That's not outright hate speech but
it sure leads to hateful actions.

~~~
saurabhnanda
The idea was not to advocate hate crime, but social boycott. The idea is to
make people personally responsible for the organizations that they work for.
Is there any other solution for this mess?

In the end it's people from within the society that join governmental
organizations and inflict torture / injustice on rest of the society.

------
shn
This article is grossly misleading. Papers and televisions are showing what is
going on, one can read from internet, and express his opinion. Turkey is a
democracy with multi party system similar to France since 1946. Unfortunately
the minority group who held the power in Turkey for decades lost their control
of most of the government and state after years of corruption with 2002
elections. In 2001 Turkish economy experienced a similar economic meltdown
after a "soft" coup of the people who support and make the current
demonstrations. The economic repercussions was so deep it effected almost
everyone similar to what has been going on in Greece and Spain. Since then the
new government handled economy and democratic process so well, even in the
current terrible economic situation of the world Turkey managed to become the
fastest growing economy in Europe. Turkey has made the last debt payment to
IMF couple of weeks ago. For the first time her existence Turkish economy's
credit rating became investment grade by Moody's on May 17th this year[1].
Most importantly the clash with the Kurdish minority ended with a new peace
process. This is by far the most important achievement of the current
government given the 30 years of history of violence in South Easy of Turkey.
Over 40K people have died since it started in 1980.

The person who wrote this article and those demonstrators are hoping to show
their anger towards the government akin to Egypt's Tahrir Square
demonstrations. However this is all reading it backwards. Current government
is popularly supported by the people and the support has increased with each
consecutive poll since 2002, leading to 50% [3] of the popular vote the last
time. This government is leading a commission and effort to write a new
constituition to raise the standards of human rights in Turkey. This is one of
the biggest selling point to end the Kurdish violence since they now feel
their rights will be protected better in the future. Current constitution is
put together in 1980 by the people who engineered the last "hard" coup in
Turkey [5], a coup literally executed with brute force, guns and tanks. With
this government the efforts to get into EU increased tremendously [6] and
actually it has been their strategy to balance the power in Turkey against
Military's long standing anti-democratic ambitions and practices.

Recent demonstrations at a park in Istanbul got bigger by exploiting the
grossly wrong police brutality. Unfortunately where there is demonstration be
it in US [7], Spain [8] or Greece [9], in any country the police is very heavy
handed. Otherwise the park that is in middle of the city is part of project
[10] that will transform the area and close all the motor vehicle traffic and
allow only pedestrians. This is going to be done by diverting traffic to
underground roads that will be build as part of the project. Decision for the
project taken by the people who was elected including members both from ruling
and opposition party, and was voted unanimously.

Author of this article and those demonstrators are supporting the old regime.
A regime that dictates certain ideology build around a cult leader like the
ones in former Soviet Union, China and North Korea. Ours is Ataturk. You have
to think like them, act like them, speak like them, live like them. During my
mandatory military service I was forced to memorize who is Ataturk which was a
list of 10 items that goes like this: 1) Ataturk was the best person in the
world 2) Ataturk was best statesman in the world 3) Ataturk is the best
military leader in the world. And thise list goes on and on...

Let me give you an example of what this people againts. Can you buy liquor
after certain hours in States? Can you walk with an open beer can, alcohol
bottle? No, because in States, varying by state, shops can not sell alcohol
after 10pm or 2am. For example in England even places where liquor served as
part of the service has to close by 1am. When this government made a similar,
banning sale of alchol from 10pm to 6am, these people made a big noise. This
is one of the arguments they have been telling during these demonstrations.

[1] [http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-05-16/turkey-raised-to-
in...](http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-05-16/turkey-raised-to-investment-
grade-by-moody-s-on-debt-cuts.html) [2]
[http://www.hrw.org/news/2013/04/25/turkey-justice-central-
ku...](http://www.hrw.org/news/2013/04/25/turkey-justice-central-kurdish-
peace-process) [3] <http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-13740147> [4]
[http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-05-10/turkey-s-
kurtulmus-...](http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-05-10/turkey-s-kurtulmus-
sets-july-deadline-for-new-constitution.html) [5]
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1980_Turkish_coup_d%C3%A9tat> [6]
<http://www.cfr.org/turkey/turkeys-eu-bid/p8939> [7]
[http://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/UC-Davis-pepper-
spraye...](http://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/UC-Davis-pepper-sprayed-
students-settle-3896116.php) [8]
[http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/sep/29/spain-riot-
polic...](http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/sep/29/spain-riot-police) [9]
<http://www.businessinsider.com/greek-police-brutality-2011-6> [10]
<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Opean5HeR-8>

~~~
hik13
This wraps up the 'real' situation perfectly. Well put, sir. As a Turkish
citizen, thank you for speaking the truth!

------
protolif
Turkey doesn't fluoridate their water. Just sayin'.
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fluoridation_by_country>

~~~
w1ntermute
Neither does Portland: [http://www.theverge.com/2013/5/22/4355312/portland-
residents...](http://www.theverge.com/2013/5/22/4355312/portland-residents-
reject-bid-to-fluoridate-city)

------
yason
Who says city planning isn't a big deal?

------
AlexeiSadeski
> Control over the decisions I make concerning my on my body

It's nice to see that the fight against heroin prohibition is being fought in
Turkey too!

------
LoonaSezz
nice

------
monsterix
> Two young people were run over by the tanks and were killed.

That is extremely serious. My condolences with those who lost their lives, and
best wishes for your friend to recover from her injury.

While we all discuss and throw ourselves around when a dying industry (read
Hollywood) misbehaves and tries to screw with our Internet freedoms, free
speech etc. I wonder what would when happen when the same fate, and it is
coming, falls on the Governments of the world.

A dying model of Governance could take things to a rather unprecedented level
of nastiness and cruelty.

~~~
mseebach
"We" don't really do anything consistently. When it's Hollywood or SOPA or
NSLs or wiretaps "we" are passionately anti-government, when it's AirBnB or
Uber flaunting local restrictions, "we" are very skeptical and when it's
Google not paying enough tax, "we" are government cheerleaders.

That said:

> A dying model of Governance could take things to a rather unprecedented
> level of nastiness and cruelty.

You haven't paid much attention these last 250 years?

~~~
trotsky
Doesn't that just sound like "we're" pro citizen?

~~~
mseebach
Any half-competent political hack can spin anything so it's "pro citizen". A
staggering proportion of citizens are in favour for the privacy/security trade
off, it's just that We Know Better(tm). Of course Google and Apple should pay
their fair share, I just can't get excited about it, I don't see how adding
more money to the same semi-corrupt deeply immoral special interests buffet
that brought you SOPA, and simultaneously distracting from the ongoing
scandals of the political system, benefits anyone but the politicians.

~~~
trotsky
you don't think government spending benefits anyone but politicians? So for
instance, medicare only benefits politicians?

~~~
mseebach
Well, Medicare is underfunded to the tune of $38T. If all of Google and Apple
was liquified at current market cap and put towards funding that liability, it
would be underfunded by at little more than $37T. Retroactively cancelling the
Iraq and Afghanistan wars would give you cash to knock the number down to
$36T.

Of course people benefiting from Medicare benefits from Medicare, but
"championing" Medicare benefits only politicians, because they know better
than anyone else that it's going to go away, soon, but they'll happily lie
about it in order to get reelected while they wait for it to happen.

~~~
trotsky
By the same token wouldn't farming be worthless because we know the sun will
explode in the future?

------
thoughtcriminal
The tearing down of trees for commercial and residential areas is happening
here too. It's called urban sprawl. Land developers wipe out natural habitats
like forests and leave sterile, artificial suburbs and plazas in its stead.

Most citizens never hear about it until it's too late because it's not easy to
find out about the latest zonings. Trying to have a say in the process? Well,
that's a whole new level of obfuscation.

The process is confusing for a reason: to keep concerned citizens like you and
me out.

What is happening in Istanbul is happening here too.

~~~
chrismcb
This isn't urban sprawl, this isn't the tearing down of forests. This is
removing a park in the middle of the city. Imaging if they came in and
bulldozed Central Park.

~~~
bcks
You actually raise an interesting parallel: poor communities and planning
organizations had railed against the bulldozers of Robert Moses for decades,
but in the media he could do no wrong. That was before he tried to build in
Central Park. When his policies finally threatened a beloved playground to
build private parking, a group well-to-do mothers on the Upper West Side stood
up and it triggered the beginning of his downfall.

~~~
bgruber
while trying to build a parking lot in central park is part of moses'
downfall, the picture painted here is not really accurate to my knowledge. for
one, a lot of stuff was built in central park during moses' reign as parks
commissioner, particularly early on: something like 20 playgrounds, including
the demolition of the casino restaurant for rumsey playground; a ton of ball
fields; tavern on the green; major changes to the central park zoo. more to
the point, characterizing residents of the UWS in the 60s as well-to-do is
particularly odd. Like the residents of greenwich village more commonly
associated with Moses' downfall, I would think that middle class is the far
more accurate description.

~~~
bcks
Yes, Moses built many things in the park. But more to the point, the many
famous and well-heeled mothers and residents of west 67th street involved in
the protest listed at the beginning of chapter 42 of "The Power Broker" makes
your comment particularly odd.

------
kmasters
Im confused by the use of the occupy lingo. Is occupy just a meme now for any
protest?

~~~
markdown
What's confusing about it? They were calling for protestors to "occupy" the
park to prevent it being bulldozed.

Or at least that's how it started.

~~~
ctdonath
What's confusing is: in the USA, the term "occupy" has been taken as a
practical trademark for a series of organized political protests. Look up
"Occupy Wall Street" as the first and primary instance.

~~~
markdown
Hard to ignore the stereotype of the American who knows little of what happens
beyond their borders :(

The Occupy Movement was a global one, with protests in over 80 countries. It
started there, but it wasn't just a Wall St. thing.

~~~
ctdonath
'scuze me for not keeping up on the happenings in each of ~200 countries, and
assuming not everyone everywhere is keeping up on the latest in my sphere of
awareness.

Yes, Occupy was global. I don't know who from where knows how much about it. I
was answering a question about why someone might be confused by usage of the
term "occupy" when it was unclear whether it was an "Occupy"-brand event vs
"hey let's go occupy this space to save it". I referenced the Wall St. thing
precisely because that's where Occupy started.

Besides, <http://xkcd.com/1053/>

------
spcs
This was a posted by a friend on Facebook:

Since I see that some friends have got excited about the recent events in
Turkey I decided to write something about it and provide some context. I think
it is good to know a bit of history of Turkey before AKP to understand what is
going on there. It has been more than 10 years that AKP is in power so people
might not know or may have forgotten the situation before AKP.

Turkey was ruled by ultra-nationalist ultra-secular militarist groups for
decades. The military overthrow several elected governments and jailed
politicians. Torture, extra-judicial killings, suppression, and corruption
were widespread. The laws that people often object to are from that area and
the constitution written by Turkish military, including insulting Turkishness
being a crime. These groups who are sometimes referred to as Kemalists had the
control of military, judicatory, academia, media, etc. Yet, they couldn't
tolerate even the government being in the hands of people they didn't like.
The large majority of Turks who are practicing Muslims were excluded. It was
illegal to wear a head-scarf in universities and government departments in a
country where over 70% of women wears head-scarf. Essentially these women were
banned from attending university. Public officials and even university
professors would be thrown out and even jailed if they showed any sign of
nonsecular tendency. Writers and intellects were jailed for expressing
opinions against Kemalist ideology. Erdogan, the current prime minister was
jailed and banned from politics for 10 years for reading an old poem while he
was the mayor of Istanbul. The existence of Kurds who are around 20 percent of
Turkey's population were completely denied (not a joke)! Speaking or reading
in Kurdish was banned and the popular Turkish singer Ahmad Kaya was forced to
exile for saying that he will record an album in Kurdish. Popular political
parties were closed regularly even when they won elections decisively. The
news of corruption in police and politics was a regular daily routine as was
the news of human rights violations.

In the years before AKP there were several short-lived governments by parties
both on the left and on the right. Inflation was very high (hyperinflation),
unemployment was high, governments were unstable. The value of Turkish lira
dropped to a third in one night. Nightly interest rates tripled to completely
ridiculous amount of 139%. You can look at Greece these days to have an idea
of Turkey of that time. Turkish foreign policy was essentially dictated by the
US government. There was a very harsh IMF imposed economic program so Turkey
could pay its debts and a technocrat from world bank was imposed as the
economy minister on the Turkish government to make sure they will implement
what IMF wanted. The government and the country were in such a bad shape that
it is almost unimaginable today after 12 years of AKP.

AKP was formed at that time. Erdogan was still under the ban from politics as
well as many prominent politicians from his previous party. But some other
politicians from the party were not under the ban. They created a new party:
AKP (Justice and Development Party). Its members were moderate and pragmatist
politicians from the banned party plus several other pragmatist and moderates
from other right of the center parties. The current Turkish President Gul
became the head of the party though Erdogan was significantly involved behind
the senses. The party won a landslide election and has been continuously doing
so for over a decade, increasing its share of votes in every election. You
have to know that the length of Turkish governments before AKP to get a
feeling of its significance: a few months!

Over a decade AKP has modernized Turkey, removed many of the laws that EU
objected to, fought corruption in police and politics, improved the economy to
its current amazing state, forced military out of politics, ... Until Syrian
crises it had perfect relations with its neighbors. It followed what I would
consider an awesome independent foreign policy. It is trying to find a
political solution to the Kurdish "problem" and the right of Kurds have
improved significantly under AKP. The list of AKP's achievements can go on.

So what is the problem? The problem is that the support base of AKP is not the
western oriented seculars, it is the conservative majority who didn't have a
voice in politics for decades (the silent majority) as the Kemalist and what
Turks call "Deep Government" didn't allow the political parties supported by
them. In all elections AKP has lost in the touristic Mediterranean coastal
cities and European parts. You can find the map of the last general election
results here:

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkish_general_election,_2011>

Yellow is AKP, red is CHP, and light green is MHP. The south eastern parts are
Kurdish areas where independent Kurdish politicians won.

The protests that you see these days are by this secular minority who has been
voting for CHP (around 25%, significant, but still a minority).

Now, what are these alternative parties?

MHP is an ultra-nationalist racist conservative far-right party. Look up
Wikipedia if you want to know more about them.

CHP is the party of the founder of the Turkey, ruled Turkey for decades in a
one-party system, is a Kemalist party. It had strong relations with Turkish
military, right now it is essentially the party supported by the elite who
ruled Turkey before AKP and their supporters. The elite tried to topple AKP
government undemocratically. Try to see if they objected to continuous serious
violations of human rights before AKP.

Obviously I don't agree with everything that AKP and Erdogan do. However, AKP
(and Erdogan) is definitely the best thing that has happened to Turkey over
many decades, and Turks know it. That is the reason AKP keeps increasing its
share of vote in elections. They are creating a strong developed democratic
lawful independent Turkey. When you hear about protests in Turkey against AKP
and Erdogan being authoritarian it is good to remember this context.

One final thing: AKP is often criticized for ignoring secular Turkish citizens
who have not voted for AKP. Watch Erdogan's victory speech after winning the
last election in which AKP further increased its share of votes. His attitude
was completely humble and reconciliatory.

The problem, in my humble opinion, is not Erdogan and AKP being arrogant and
authoritarian, but rather the secular minority demanding more than their fair
share. I mean they objected to the removal of the ban on head-scarves for
students attending university and consider it Islamization of Turkey (a
country where over 70% of women wears head-scarf).

~~~
krzyk
Where does the 70% came from? Do you have a source for this? It would be
better to check how many "scarf-wearers" are going to universities, this
percentage would be meaningful. My opinion is that universities should be
religion-free as science doesn't play well with religion.

I think that the problem might be that the (nonsecular) east wants to rule the
(secular) west and viceversa.

~~~
mc-lovin
"religion-free" is a highly ambiguous term. Can you clarify?

I think that a person has a right to wear whatever clothing they feel
appropriate, assuming they aren't committing indecent exposure and they don't
have giant spikes protruding from their clothing that could endanger others.

Can you clarify what individual rights you think exist on university campuses,
and how these interact with your goal of keeping universities "religion-free"?

------
mtgx
Is Facebook the one blocking the occupygezi pages or is it the government
somehow?

~~~
monsterix
Yes unlike Google, Facebook seemingly easily bends over to censor free speech
and citizen pages when the local Government asks them to.

------
pknerd
Another _sponsored_ revolution.

~~~
dasil003
That comment merits an explanation.

~~~
varjag
Some people find it deeply unsettling that someone could hold different
political views sincerely. They cope with it by assuming the others are
compensated in some form for their abnormal behavior.

When I protested in my homeland I heard accusations of being paid to do this,
even the price was specified ($20). Twenty bucks to go into a harsh cold night
to be assaulted by police and possibly imprisoned on terrorism charges, what a
deal :)

~~~
dasil003
Strange kneejerk reaction since the commenter is from Pakistan. If he has some
actual reason to believe this I'd like to hear it for discussion's sake.

~~~
pknerd
Not knee jerk reaction, my mistake I did not expain at first place as I
wrongly assumed readers would like to make attempts to learn facts.

~~~
dasil003
Clearly from my comments you would see that I am interested in learning facts
so don't act so wounded. However, so far all you have presented is the idea
that if the US sponsors some protests against an Islamic government, all
protests against Islamic governments are created by US sponsorship. It's not
very convincing without evidence.

~~~
pknerd
Evidence. So far many things world believed didn't have any evidence, for
instance WMD.

Coming to your main Question, If you look how Egypt Spring started, it was all
to getrid of Mobarak, US, the former ally of Mobarak left em all alone as did
it in past.

I could share articles like
this([http://www.deathandtaxesmag.com/50553/wikileaks-u-s-
governme...](http://www.deathandtaxesmag.com/50553/wikileaks-u-s-government-
behind-egypt-revolution/)) one but I left you upto you to figure out.

Point is, every _revolution_ got started turned against US; be it Tunisia,
Egypt and now Turkey.

Those who are protesting will be crying out loud if some stern Islamic leader
comes all of sudden and rule upon them.

~~~
wavefunction
I understand you're from a part of the world where a lot of people are not
fond of America (for both valid and invalid reasons, in my opinion). The same
thing these people in Turkey are fighting against is going on all over the
world, INCLUDING the US.

I hope you understand that like pretty much everywhere, there are "good and
decent" people and some "bad" people. Unfortunately, the "bad" people always
seem to be the sorts who want to force other people to live their way, while
the "good" people mostly want to live their lives the way they want and not
force other people. It's as true of America as it is of Pakistan.

