
Ancient Roman coins found buried under ruins of Japanese castle - diodorus
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/archaeology/roman-coins-discovery-castle-japan-okinawa-buried-ancient-currency-a7332901.html
======
sandworm101
One of the coins has a classic hole punched through it. I've seen these as
punched circular holes, but this one seems to have been done with a blade. You
can almost see the outline of a one-sided blade. This screams to me that the
coin was once worn as jewellery, an image of the emperor worn around the neck
on a strip of cloth. So this may have been brought by a traveller, even a
tourist far from home. Coin collectors might dismiss it as damaged, but to me
it's far more interesting because of this possible backstory.

[http://www.japantimes.co.jp/wp-
content/uploads/2016/09/n-old...](http://www.japantimes.co.jp/wp-
content/uploads/2016/09/n-oldcoin-a-20160927.jpg)

edit: after looking at the pic and how small the hole is, could the strip of
cloth have been anything other than silk? That means the hole was punched in
the east, not in the west where silk would be too expensive for such utility.

~~~
icanhackit
AKA cash:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cash_(Chinese_coin)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cash_\(Chinese_coin\))

Like Wampum, Chinese cash was kept on strings.

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United857
I'm guessing coming via trade with China?

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sino-
Roman_relations#Roman_and...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sino-
Roman_relations#Roman_and_Byzantine_currency_discovered_in_China)

~~~
Turing_Machine
Right. No need for any direct connection between Rome and Japan. Coins were
traded at their bullion value.

I suspect the "baffled" part came from the journalist, not the actual
archaeologists.

Even today there are coins that are used that way, for example:

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maria_Theresa_thaler](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maria_Theresa_thaler)

This coin has been minted and circulated continuously since 1741 in parts of
the world far removed from its point of origin (indeed, the very government
that originally minted it is long, long gone).

~~~
mratzloff
Except they were copper coins, not silver coins.

~~~
jdmichal
Why does the metallic composition of the coins matter? It doesn't effect the
point at all, so your use of "except" is confusing to me.

Only point I can see is that copper is not a traditional bullion metal. I'd
argue that that's up to the trade partners to decide, not us centuries and an
industrial revolution later. For instance, aluminum was considered a precious
metal until the late 1800's when new smelting processes drastically increased
supply.

~~~
sandworm101
That holds for coins used as currency, but not necessarily for coins used for
bullion. Krugerands, the definitive bullion coin, don't have denominations
printed. Their value is based only on their metal. With ancient coins there is
a very fine line between a valuable piece of currency, and an attractive lump
of silver. I suspect that by the time this coin is in Japan, it is worth more
than its weight suggests. But does that intrinsic value appear because it is
currency or simply novelty? I think the latter. This is a bullion coin worth
more purely by circumstance.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krugerrand](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krugerrand)

~~~
digi_owl
My personal impression is that coinage is complicated.

I suspect they started out as weights for measuring out a certain value of
grain or similar.

Then you stamp the weights with the mark of the sovereign that validates them.

Then at some point it becomes just as easy to just swap weights around as
bring out the scales.

~~~
sandworm101
There were more primitive systems of currency before authorities started
endorsing coins. Hoards of bronze-age axeheads, few of which show signs of
use, some that couldn't ever be, point to them as a means of moving wealth via
standardized units. A standardized shape of metal used in trade... sounds like
coinage to me.

------
BuckRogers
While a stimulating find at first, these were likely brought over when they
were already ancient with the 17th century Turkish coins. Katsuren was built
around 1300, so that leaves the fact someone buried the coins there. Probably
in the 17-18th century for safekeeping.

~~~
saynsedit
Yeah, the fact that they were Constantine coins reinforces that theory.

------
Pitarou
This is an interesting find, but not at all surprising.

At the time the coins were buried, Ryukyu (now called Okinawa) was not a part
of Japan. Until the 19th century Ryukyu was a tributary of China, and at one
time it was a regional trade hub, so one would expect coins from distant lands
to find their way there.

~~~
jpatokal
It's more complicated than that: Ryukyu was a tributary of both Japan _and_
China, and de facto a vassal state of Satsuma from 1609 onwards.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Ryukyu_Islands#...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Ryukyu_Islands#Ryukyu_Kingdom)

------
contingencies
_Katsuren Castle was known to have been the focal point of trading
partnerships with China and other Asian countries_

There is loads of evidence for early trade... the _Periplus_ [0] is a well
known period navigational text showing knowledge of India and China. Roman
coins have been found in Cambodia[1] and Vietnam[2]. Coins from East Africa
have even been found in Australia.[3] Essentially we know that seaborne travel
was very much going on in prehistory but we have no way to track a lot of
it... most of the evidence is gone. In the case of Japan, however, they
probably obtained coins by land trade through the Silk Road[4]... much like
they did Buddhism.[5]

[0]
[https://depts.washington.edu/silkroad/texts/periplus/periplu...](https://depts.washington.edu/silkroad/texts/periplus/periplus.html)
[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Funan_(Southeast_Asia)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Funan_\(Southeast_Asia\))
[2]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%93c_Eo](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%93c_Eo)
[3] [http://www.smh.com.au/national/out-of-
africa-20130908-2tes7....](http://www.smh.com.au/national/out-of-
africa-20130908-2tes7.html) [4]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silk_Road#Chinese_exploration_...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silk_Road#Chinese_exploration_of_Central_Asia)
[5]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanto_Rokush%C5%AB](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanto_Rokush%C5%AB)

------
jpalomaki
Last week there was also some news report regarding skeletons of chinese
origin having been found from Roman cemetary. These were dated to 200-400 AD.

[http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-3803648/A-mee...](http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-3803648/A-meeting-
two-ancient-empires-Chinese-skeletons-Roman-cemetery-promise-rewrite-
history.html)

~~~
mcguire
Relations between the Roman Empire and China are reasonably well documented.
([https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chronology_of_European_explora...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chronology_of_European_exploration_of_Asia))

Explaining these coins' presence as "trade" leaves a lot of questions open.
These had to have arrived after they were minted in the 4th century. The
Turkish coins are late 17th century, but Wikipedia puts the last use of
Katsuren as early 17th century. That all leaves a lot of intriguing
possibilities: Roman trade with China followed by either trade with Okinawa or
a "gift" of intriguing artifacts, Portuguese trade directly with Okinawa
(which would make sense with the Turkish coins), or something else.

If the two sets of coins are related, who after the late 17th century is
toting around 4th century coins? And why bury them in an unused castle? If
they aren't related, how do they get in proximity?

Some of these are probably answered by the archaeology, but even so these
things are going to be damned weird, "trade" notwithstanding.

------
ocschwar
A gold coin would be melted down and re-struck again and again as it traveled
or as kings died or were usurped.

A copper coin, however, would not be worth the bother. This coin had plenty of
time to travel

~~~
JoeAltmaier
More frequently, gold and silver coins were melted down and re-struck _to add
tin_ and make one coin into two. The most frequent tool found in old buildings
are coin molds and strikes - hidden away (because illegal) they got left when
the building was abandoned.

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JoeAltmaier
Confused: what was the date of the ruins? Can't find any date in the article.
Without that info there's no mystery. You can buy Roman coins via Ebay.

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CamperBob2
Please stop with the autoplaying audio links, or at least post a warning in
the headline.

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radiorental
plausible explanation to clickbait title leave HN readers baffled.

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smegel
> We don't think that there is a direct link between the Roman Empire and
> Katsuren Castle

Well I'm glad that's cleared up!

