
I'm a 30 year old with no experience, I want to build a startup - chamboo
I spent 276 days trying to figure out what to do with my life, I still don't have an answer.<p>I have no experience in programming, nor do I have delusions about becoming an elite programmer. I just would like to learn enough to have a better filter to notice/process ideas as mentioned here: http://www.paulgraham.com/startupideas.html<p>I have decided to commit to learn programming at a base level, enough to possibly make prototypes/potential to find co-founder.<p>I left a previous job that paid well for many years because 1.I wasn't talented and 2.I did not see my life as being fulfilled down that path.<p>A couple points for your consideration<p>1. I have over 1mm liquid, and I have no debt, don't own a house or car. This may be tacky to mention, but since I am anonymous, I just wanted to put it out there out of desperation in hopes someone can give me some solution (wishful thinking).<p>2. No one depends on me, I have as many hours as there are in a day to work on this.<p>I started doing some html work on code academy, it seemed a bit slow and thorough for what I'm trying to do. I looked at Zed Shaw's courses, and they seem like a good idea, but I'm not sure if it's overkill (or underkill?) for what my goals are.<p>If any of this makes sense, you would SIGNIFICANTLY help me by giving me guidance to help achieve my goal.  I don't want to waste time learning things that I really won't need to know (near term).<p>I have searched much, but not knowing what I need to know, it is hard to discern what is and isn't necessary. (In terms of the base goal).<p>Maybe I am not cut out to be a founder.  But I do know that reading pg's essays make my mind run wild, and I find instant inspiration and excitement in his writings.  I have spent 276 days trying to figure out something else, and nothing is jumping out at me.  So it's about time to make some sort of a commitment. For better or for worse.
======
argimenes
In my experience it is not unusual that an intelligent, ambitious, and
creative person finds themselves at a crossroad in their late twenties.
Perhaps it began in adolescence, even childhood, where they knew that they had
an above-average intelligence and a mind open to possibilities -- but, at the
same time, a grave sense of self doubt existed, which only grew year by year
as ambitious projects floundered and others (who to appearances were less
intelligent or at least less imaginative) thrived. This can reach a crisis
point in the late twenties, when the options for avoidance begin to dry up --
and one is faced with the increasing reality of finding work, starting a
career, etc.

This can be a frightening moment -- but it is also a liberating moment, viewed
correctly. At this point the self's ego-image -- the set of core beliefs about
who you are, what you are destined for, how 'intelligence' and 'success' are
defined -- come into conflict with the reality principle. This is naturally a
very painful moment (drawn across months and even years). It is also an
opportunity to redefine these core beliefs -- to reexamine them -- to ask
yourself what are your fundamental assumptions about intelligence, creativity,
success.

In my own experience, and watching similar-minded friends, this crisis point
is a fundamental conflict between what we THINK intelligence, creativity, and
genius is -- and what we actually see in ourselves. On the one hand we "know"
that we are smart, imaginative -- on the other, the reality principle demands
proof and evidence. But here is the paradox: this very belief in intelligence
creates its own contradictions. For example, if you believe that smart people
are smart because they do clever things easily -- then your brain can start to
believe that if you find something hard to do, it is proof of your stupidity.
The brain then finds ways to avoid this painful conflict between ego-image and
reality -- by dreaming up great ambitions and projects, but then shying away
from realising them. Or, you can develop an aversion to "lesser work" -- which
reinforces a belief that you are innately special and "above that".

The problem is in the core assumptions one makes about worth -- examining
these assumptions deeply, being open to see the paradoxes in them, the
hypocrisies even, can reveal avenues out of the situation. You can find
practical things to do -- this in turn can build real confidence, not ego-
confidence. Work seems then less like 'drudgery' and more like the slow and
steady strengthening of your powers.

Just some thoughts...

~~~
chamboo
_"For example, if you believe that smart people are smart because they do
clever things easily -- then your brain can start to believe that if you find
something hard to do, it is proof of your stupidity. The brain then finds ways
to avoid this painful conflict between ego-image and reality -- by dreaming up
great ambitions and projects, but then shying away from realising them. Or,
you can develop an aversion to "lesser work" -- which reinforces a belief that
you are innately special and "above that"_

This is me. It seems very complicated to overcome such a thing, as some of the
assumptions seem rational. What do you deem as 'practical things to do'? (Or
do you have any examples of this?)

Also thanks for this. I don't know what to say, but this hits home rather
hard.

~~~
bones6
My advice would be do something seriously FUN as a first project. Do you have
a hobby that could be a springboard? For example, I love Radio-Controlled
stuff. So a project could be arduino controlled R/C car/drone. A little coding
and a little wiring with real results. It's not trivial, but it's not over the
top difficult either. That's my example, but try to get a concrete project to
tackle. You will learn what you need to learn in the journey to finish it.

~~~
chamboo
Well I did build a custom, fully watercooled computer with flow/temperature
monitoring and custom fan control from scratch. Custom wired and designed and
overclocked to 5GHZ. Although it's just a computer, it actually took quite a
bit of extensive planning and research. Not sure that it really did anything
for me, I don't tend to give myself credit for anything for some reason. I
figure if I can do it, it must not be too hard.

But yea, maybe that is a good start. I need to shrug this feeling of
worthlessness that I carry so heavily. Maybe these are the baby steps needed.

------
mbesto
Hi!

I've tried to do what you, and after about 6 months of trying to get myself to
fully code, I fell flat. But I still really wanted to build a business and
have slowly realized what I enjoy most - finding the easiest route to
acquiring customers by building a MVP.

I now have a team of 3 (biz dev, web dev, and UI) could build you an MVP for
around $15-20k. It will help you validate a lot of your assumptions and help
flesh out any idea you may have.

More importantly, I believe it will help you jump start the journey of what
you want to focus on. You will get exposure and advice to the 3 core elements
of starting an internet business - web development, business development, and
user experience. Which, if all done properly mean acquiring customers.

Contact details in profile if you're interested! Good luck either way!

~~~
chamboo
Thanks for your support. I will keep your contact info, and keep it in mind as
I progress down this path. Hopefully I will be in touch soon.

~~~
mbesto
Happy to help. Even if means just talking on the phone to understand better
what you want to do! Everyone's passionate about something different.

------
JimWillTri
I was in your position financially and career-wise - just hated what I was
doing. Gave a little thought to coding but decided I had plenty of money to
just hire people to complete the project. Went to every dev firm in the US who
I thought had the skills. Most quoted around $25k - which would be great but I
dint believe they could do it.

Instead went to a firm in SV that wanted $54k. They had worked on a large
prior project so I thought they could get it done. They couldn't even get the
first milestone complete after giving then two times the allotted time. Fired
them.

Finally found my own people and launched 5 months ago and going great. I would
suggest finding some good people on HN.

~~~
chamboo
I'm very happy to hear that you're doing it. For a very long period, I started
to give up hope (and I had never even attempted anything). I would very much
like to find some people here. Can you say what you are working on building?

~~~
JimWillTri
It's very difficult to find good programmers. I would suggest finding someone
on HN that has a very good rep and using him to sort through and find quality
ones. One of the biggest challenges is that, even when you find quality
programmer(s), most will attempt to outsource to crappy devs. I found out that
the sv dev firm I hired, outsourced to $4.50 hour ukraine devs on odesk.

~~~
chamboo
Same thing happened to me when I tried to outsource a slot machine app to a
company on Odesk in India. Was ridiculously dumb to try and work with those
guys.

------
runjake
This is going to sound like an insult, but it truly isn't:

In my mind, you obviously don't want to a put a lot of research into it -- as
if you did, you'd just read everything you could, and get an MVP going --
instead of posting this. Don't worry, I'm often the same way. I suppose it's a
sense of urgency.

So you might look into DevBootCamp (<http://devbootcamp.com/>). It doesn't
mean you have to be an RoR programmer forever, but you gain coding skills and
contacts in a relatively short amount of time. You have the cash and time.

~~~
notintegral
I expect DevBootCamp to fail like all other things with which Michael Staton
is involved. Staton is the type of entrepreneur who screws over countless
other individuals in order to achieve his own success; he pretends to help
edtech companies with the sole goal of advancing his own agenda, and his own
product -- Inigral -- is rarely used by the universities or the students who
pay for it. All in all, Michael Staton is one of those wantrepreneurs who
advances because of his success as a "socialite" (in his own words) rather
than any prowess, intellectual ability, or entrepreneurial talent.

------
GioM
>I started doing some html work on code academy, it seemed a bit slow and
thorough for what I'm trying to do.

Upon reflecting on my professional life, I found that most of my problems were
caused by trying to run before I could walk. I needed to learn patience in
order to make myself into the person that I desperately wanted to become
(These days, I'm still working at it, but I'm making great progress). The crux
of the matter is that it's easy to think of awesome things to make, but hard
to put in the time to learn how to make them. Take the time to learn, and
although you may find that what you wanted to make is not achievable, you will
see other possibilities and opportunities open up for you.

With regard to beginner-level resources, I have had some great success with
oreilly's headfirst series (<http://shop.oreilly.com/category/series/head-
first.do>) They provide an excellent, quick, entry point into a subject, and
enough base knowledge that you can expand on your own (and you will have to -
they're beginner books). Combine these books and your future learning with
diligent note-taking (via Evernote) and you will have a searchable and very
useable database that will serve you well.

Good luck, and I hope it works out for you.

------
kevin_rubyhouse
Hey how's it going?

Sounds like you're in a great spot to pursue a goal, as soon as you've settled
on what you'd like to do.

How did the programming go over the past 276 days?
(<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3964837>) How did your prototype come
out?

I somewhat agree with cjbenedikt about investing. The issue though is that
without actually experiencing startup or being in the trenches with technology
it is harder to filter/process ideas that people talk to you about.

You're cut out to be a founder if you are consistently applying effort to
improving yourself as an entrepreneur/in business. Persistence is key, because
that way you can eventually navigate all the obstacles to building a
successful company, something I've managed only to a minor degree.

I won't presume to give you any advice besides that. What I can help you out
with though is getting a solid start to learning how to program. Feel free to
reach out to me with any questions, especially related to programming (front-
end, back-end, software, architecture, mobile, games... anything) at
kevin.stubbs at therubyhouse dot com.

P.S.

With apparently all the time in the world, don't worry about learning too much
programming. Just work your ass off at it and you'll be a fair enough
programmer for your needs soon enough. (I prefer overkill courses too.)

~~~
chamboo
Hey Kevin,

I never committed to it. I spent time questioning whether this was right for
me, wavering between this and that, giving up, almost going back to work at
what I was doing before. There have been some very dark days between then and
now. I know nothing more about programming now than I did then. Every time I
would sit down to start, I became overwhelmed and then didn't do anything. The
recurring thought is 'there is just too much to learn'. 'The people getting
into Ycombinator are Harvard/etc.. grads, why do I think I can compete'. These
are illusions to some degree, but definitely kept me from making a move up to
this point.

Thanks for this advice, I'll definitely follow up.

~~~
whichdan
Honestly, if you can afford to spend a year learning to code, put the startup
on hold, and just write some code! Instead of focusing on "I need to build
blog software," try to think about it as more of an iterative process.

Part 1:

1) Create a database

2) Manually input test data

3) Make a page to list all of your posts

4) Paginate your posts

5) Give your posts permalinks and their own pages

Part 2:

1) Create a simple login system

2) Create a page that lists all of your posts

3) Create a page to add new posts

4) Create a page to edit posts (you can reuse the "add new posts" code)

5) Create a page to delete posts

6) Allow posts to be scheduled in the future

Part 3:

1) Use the same method above to allow users to sign up for your blog and post
comments.

This is exactly how I learned to code. I started with a small core problem ("I
want to display posts from a database") and started tacking on features one-
by-one. There was no end goal, no todo list, no lofty requirements -- just me
seeing how many features I could build by myself.

While you could certainly find a benefit in moving to the Bay Area and
networking or joining a "learn to code" program, I think there's a lot to be
said for just sitting down and churning away at a project like this. Once you
get the hang of things, you can pick up contract work, which will both offset
your living expenses, and let you improve your skill on someone else's dime.
It has the added benefit of forcing you to work on problems you might not
normally encounter, like parsing email sent to your server.

Mainly, before anything else, coding should be fun. If you get yourself into
the swing of things, you'll have a hard time _not_ working on your startup.

~~~
chamboo
First, thanks for the specifics here, it is very helpful to someone like me
who is grasping at a starting point.

Second, I so want to believe that this is true. Even if I could just make
1k/mo, my stress level would go from 9.5/10 to 0. I've been told so much by my
parents that I'm a fool to pursue such a thing, that I'll fail etc... I think
it's really ingrained in me that it would take nothing short of a miracle for
me to succeed doing this. It doesn't seem at all rational, but I fear it for
some reason.

~~~
coryl
If it helps, I learned to program last year. I wrote a blog post recently with
a few tips:

[http://coryliu.com/post/42990233356/how-i-learned-to-
program...](http://coryliu.com/post/42990233356/how-i-learned-to-program-aka-
the-surest-way-to)

~~~
chamboo
Man I want to hug you for this. I am so glad you were able to make it work.
I'm just going to do it too, it can't hurt me at this point, and I felt very
much the same as you. My doubts are what has kept me from actually doing it.
Is there any reason you started C first before Python/Ruby? Probably a stupid
question, but I don't even have a basic grasp of the differences or if it even
matters. Thanks for posting this.

~~~
coryl
I wanted to make iOS apps, which uses primarily uses Objective-C. After a bit
of trying to learn, I found that Obj-C resources weren't very good. Some
suggested that I should learn C first, which is where Objective-C was based
off of, so I figured I'd do that.

In terms of your choice of language, first figure out what you want to make.
Web apps? Mobile apps? Desktop software? That will let you know your options
for languages.

------
mswen
Over the past 14 months I have put myself through the same self-learning
process with a similar goal. Be able to build full working prototypes of the
web app ideas in my head. I am fully aware that if one of these start to get
some customer traction I will need to have a more experienced dev help me deal
with a whole variety of issues from scalability to security and a designer to
help with UI/UX and visual appeal.

Although I had read a couple of books and tried some tutorials none of it
really felt like it stuck until I just started building a site that I wanted.
Even though it isn't the most systematic education, each piece that you learn
is focused on solving a current problem.

As I look back over the year, I have learned a reasonable amount of HTML, CSS,
Javascript, PHP and MySQL and just enough of deploying to a LAMP stack at my
hosting company so that I can get sites up and running.

It sounds really daunting, and there were some really hard days this last
year, but if you stay focused on solving one or two chunks of the overall
problem at a time you can work your way through it.

I now can now do what I set out to do, which is build full working prototype
sites. I have several demos deployed and am starting pilot implementations
with customers on two of the sites.

I don't know your technical background or formal training. My own background
was pretty technical but not web development. Even if your background is not
technical, there are plenty of examples of people with Liberal Arts
backgrounds and teens teaching themselves do do web development.

Another possibility for you, is to try to go to one of the dev bootcamps, you
commit 12 weeks of undivided intense concentration under the tutoring of
experienced developers. This would quickly get you a foundation.

Best of luck

~~~
chamboo
I basically have no technical background other than basic engineering, but
nothing software related. On the bootcamps, do you personally know anyone who
attended and recommended a specific one? I thought about doing this, but I
heard mixed reviews (I know there are quite a few now).

~~~
mswen
I don't know anyone who has gone through one of these dev bootcamps - but in
the grand scheme of things 12 weeks of intense effort under some guidance is a
relatively small investment to give you a feel for whether not you have the
talent and enduring interest to go down the route of building out the skills
to be the technical founder yourself.

Even if you decide that doing the web development yourself isn't all that
exciting, you will now be in a much better position to evaluate other
programmers that you hire to execute your vision.

------
hipsters_unite
>"it seemed a bit slow and thorough for what I'm trying to do"

Okay, so as somebody who quit their job to learn to code (I just didn't
realise that was what I was doing at the time), I'll say: if you are going to
code you have to be thorough. Codeacademy is a good start. I began by doing
pretty much everything on that site in a couple of 8hrs/day 7-day weeks. From
there, Treehouse, Zed, books, blogs, StackOverflow... there are a hundred
ways.

Bottom line: if you want to be a technical founder you've got to commit to
learning the hard way, be passionate and determined. Non-technical, you should
read and type along to something like Michael Hartl's Rails Tutorial book so
at least you've got your hands dirty with code and can understand how it works
when working with a co-founder. For a brief intro to simple web apps, you
might try the Essential PHP with MySQL course on Lynda.com as you can see the
inner workings of CRUD etc.

I've been at it six months and I can hang out with devs and talk shop, no
problems. You could probably get to where I've done quicker too. Good luck!

~~~
chamboo
Thanks for these resources, never heard of the Rails tutorial, will definitely
check it out. What area of the world do you live?

------
shail
Hey

Would you be interested in joining another startup, like mine, as a cofounder?
I am the only founder.

As a suggestion, you should join a startup (not necessarily mine) and since
you are not burdened by the thought of securing your next meal, you can really
take much bigger challenges, much higher risk (in terms of time, not
necessarily money).

For instance, I see a lot of people saying release early, go to market asap,
but I somehow feel the otherwise and I agree that's a risky approach but not
totally unworthy.

Just a suggestion.

I am looking for cofounder currently, someone who is willing to take risk (a
lot of it) so if it suits your appetite, then you are welcome. I do not expect
any money from you, will not pay you ad expect you to take care of your
expenses until we secure a round or go profitable.

As far as what I am working on, I am elaborating a lot on it because that does
not matter. Personalities should match first.

Contact me: shail2@live.com if interested. I am based in India.

------
lifeisstillgood
1mm liquid implies you are actually a lot better at the "reality" thing than
you might think.

And being a programmer is a necessary but not sufficient part of being a
founder.

I would suggestto you the HN Proposition approach:

<http://hnproposition.blogspot.co.uk/>
<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5037694>

Basically - you seed a hacker with 5000 USD to build their MVP, then you seed
yourself to promote it, SEO it, sell it basically. Its essentially a way to
buy an MVP. It may work really well - it may not, but whatever, you seem in
the right place to do it.

You will benefit from learning to code no matter what, but right now I suspect
you need to hustle. And trying to sell three or four new startups, birth them
into the world, is certainly going to do that for you.

~~~
chamboo
Thanks for this, I did see this earlier. I will certainly consider this option
as I progress.

------
klaut
I would suggest you to do this:

First, ask yourself why you want to learn programming. Is it something that
really excites you? Go watch some of the Destroy All Software[1] screencasts:
do your hart jump everytime you see Gary orchestrate Vim with elegance? Are
you eager to start molding your ruby/python code with his mastery? If the
answers is yes, then just let yourself go and start learning: define an easy
project and just try to build it up from scratch (watchign screencasts,
reading tutorials along the way).

If the answer is no and all you want is to start a tech business, then perhaps
it is better for you to hire/find a team?

Btw, if you want to discuss programming, bouncing ideas off and just general
support chat, fire me an email (in my profile).

Good luck! :)

[1] <https://www.destroyallsoftware.com/screencasts>

~~~
chamboo
Hey, thanks for the support. I admit I don't know enough about what was going
on in that vid to make it exciting, but the thought of being able to make a
website do whatever I want to sounds incredibly fulfilling.

~~~
klaut
you can start with Ruby Koans: <http://rubykoans.com>

~~~
chamboo
Thanks for this link. :)

------
filvdg
If i was in your situation i would move to silicon valley, visit coding events
and finds bright coders and offer them your time , not your cash to help them
to get traction , you will develop plenty of other skills you will need to
succeed and you might find an activity you really enjoy that is not coding

~~~
chamboo
I hear this often. Is this really a good idea? I have thought of it, but I
wonder, am I just going to move all the way out there, and then I still won't
find anything? What then. I guess I could just sit here and do nothing too, I
guess that would be similarly effective. I would like to think that what you
suggest is true. I hope that it is. I don't know why I have so many doubts
without even actually attempting it. Maybe a visit out there would be a good
idea to break this way of thinking.

~~~
rdouble
If you have a million dollars and have not done anything for 276 days, why
wouldn't you just try it out?

------
segmondy
Ha, we have the opposite problem, we have experience programming, delusions of
being elite programmers, we have great ideas or so we think. Got debt, house,
cars, bills, and no cash. Trade you idea for idea. How did you earn your cash?
Teach me, and I can teach you how to code.

------
cjbenedikt
I wish I had your problem ;-)Where r u based? You don't need to learn how to
code, there are excellent devs out there, find your mission/passion and spend
some of your cash on it. One area could be mobile tech for develop. countries
- exciting! Best of luck

~~~
chamboo
Hey, I am currently in Dallas. I really have no ties here, I am considering
picking up and moving, but not sure yet. I would definitely like to know some
people who have worked on, or are working on something programming related.
Part of the reason for me wanting to learn basic coding is to find my
mission/passion. I have many interests, most too large probably to be feasible
on any level, but I feel that as I become more aware of things that are
missing in my life, more ideas pop into my head. I would like to be a little
more prepared than I currently am in case the need arises, to put it coarsely.

~~~
cjbenedikt
Hmmm, I'm beginning to think that maybe you should formulate WHAT you want to
do before you get to the HOW. Maybe it'll turn out coding may only be a small
part of it. Building a start-up goes way beyond coding. Jeff Bezos never coded
yet look at where Amazon is today...Just a thought

------
aliston
Out of curiosity, how have you managed to save 1mm by age 30?

------
tectonic
I am involved with, and have started, a number of companies. Feel free to send
me a email if you want to chat. Contact info in my profile.

