
Ask HN: Am I ridiculous for finding 8 hours of work as a coder, ridiculous? - EC1
I work 10am until 6pm every day and I have a lot of endeavors I&#x27;d like to partake in post-work, everyone else on the team just works and then chills after work.<p>Ideally I&#x27;d work 6 hours a day, from home with no breaks (obviously a 10-15m lunch) but that&#x27;s it.<p>3 hours of mine are wasted <i>every day</i>. 1.5 hour commute&#x2F;getting read, 1.5 hours lunch + various breaks.<p>So essentially 8 hours of work, and an extra 1.5 hours of wasted time, taking up 9.5 hours of my day. I could be saving 3.5 hours per day (that&#x27;s a full month and 5 days every year!)<p>It just seems ridiculous to me as I&#x27;ve already had two really successful remote roles and the dynamic &#x2F; team size &#x2F; software stack is the exact same as previous startups I&#x27;ve worked at.<p>I&#x27;m their first hire and the founders come from a corporate culture so they just do all the same corporate stuff, meanwhile me and the employees are dying and I&#x27;m really feeling like quitting. I am cleaning up the mess of their old developers of the past 5 years, I am very good and in one month I have already completely rehauled their entire product myself. I have the stones, the problem is I am very very young and tend not to get taken seriously.<p>Time is MUCH more valuable to me than money. The money just goes in my account and investments, I don&#x27;t really go out or drink or anything so that money to me is just future time.<p>What should I do?
======
PhilWright
You have learnt a valuable lesson whilst early in your career. When you
consider a job opportunity you have to take into account many factors that are
important to you but might not be to the employer. Factors such as your travel
time, company culture, remote working, free soda and so forth.

You have three options...

1, Accept it and get on with the job. (Seems like you are not likely to go
with this)

2, Request/persuade boss to let you remote work. (Seems unlikely if they have
a corporate culture)

3, Look for another job that does match your desires. (Should be easy as you
have 'the stones')

------
matthewmacleod
_What should I do?_

You should probably look for another position elsewhere that is more suited to
your requirements. It's not like it's difficult to find work as a talented
developer, and there are many opportunities available – as remote workers for
startups, or contractors for example.

That said, I'd caution:

 _I am very good and in one month I have already completely rehauled their
entire product myself. I have the stones, the problem is I am very very young
and tend not to get taken seriously._

This makes you sound arrogant, to put it mildly. You almost certainly didn't
do what you describe; it might be worth taking a step back and more
realistically evaluating your strengths and weaknesses.

I'm also skeptical that you indeed work for 6 hours with a minimal 15 minute
break for lunch – and if you are, it's almost certainly not healthy
(physically or mentally).

~~~
EC1
I converted a crappy old PHP code base to a modern one by breaking down their
product and re-building it, re-using assets as I needed. It took a lot of time
and extra work but I did just that.

You flatter me by thinking that comment comes from a place of arrogance.
Assume the aforementioned codebase is complete garbage coded by two non-
programmers. It's an MVP essentially.

It's not like I worked somewhere like Facebook and re-did their
infrastructure. I remade the work of two business guys.

Why? You just sit there and work, 6 hours isn't a very long time. Maybe I have
a unique ability to stay focused for hours on end.

~~~
martinni
Really? After looking at your post history, I found this.

>I've lost the ability to focus on a single task for hours at a time like I
used to as a kid. Even if it excites me. My attention has been completely
ruined by social media and I don't know how to recover. Always some sort of
chat or something in the background. I really don't know what to do, should I
get counselling or something?

~~~
EC1
Yes, in my hobbies. Work is a context where I have to force myself regardless
of how I feel or I get fired. Motivating yourself to be equally disciplined in
your hobbies where there is no incentive to do so is much more difficult. Stop
attempting to dismantle me and post a proper reply instead, otherwise we're
done.

------
ImTalking
With so much patting-yourself-on-the-back, I couldn't begin to tell you what
you should do. Actually, my advise is to stop patting yourself on the back.

~~~
EC1
Thanks for the condescending comment. Really helpful.

------
bobby_9x
You say you are 'very very young'. I worked extra hours for awhile (even if I
didn't get paid for these extra hours), just so I can get the experience
needed for a better job.

But, pretty much every job is 8 hours. If it's not 8 hours, it's more..not
less. You will need to get used to this.

If you want flexibility, become a contractor. You can then work 6 hours every
day.

I got tired of this as well, so I started my own company.

~~~
EC1
>You will need to get used to this.

No, I won't, because I've _already had_ two roles that match my criteria, and
the conditions at this job don't warrant a mandatory 8 hours per day. We're
not doing repetitive tasks that don't have an end in sight. It's win-win on
both ends. I get more work done because I'm more motivated and relaxed in my
day-to-day life and as a result, their product improves.

There's really no bullshitting in my company. We don't go out, or take
excessive breaks, we just work with our music on and barely talk _all day_.
It's really quite exhausting. It's not that we don't like each other or
anything, we all just come from super corporate F100 companies.

~~~
lgieron
At "super corporate" companies people are at their desks for 8 hours, but
hardly anyone is working that much. It's all a game of pretending to be
working hard (desks where people walking by can't see your screen are highly
sought-after).

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d4rkph1b3r
Why don't you go work for a big four company? They'll pay more than enough to
live a good lifestyle for a young person, you can get an apartment within
walking distance/five minute commute. They offer plenty of life/time saving
services. If you're as good as you say, you can absolutely get by working less
than 8 hours a day.

------
danielvf
I know two competent people who have gone from working full time hours to
working two to three hours a day from home for only a small reduction in pay.

Both quit their jobs to become freelancers, and mentioned to their bosses on
the way out that they would available for consulting. They were then
contracted in at more than 4x their previous hourly pay.

------
smt88
I was once in a similar situation. The culture of the company was corporate,
and I was fixing legacy code (and getting blamed for bugs I didn't introduce).
I was also working long hours.

Start looking for a new job. If you don't find one, no big deal -- you're just
in the same position. If you do find one, you might be able to correct the
problems you're feeling and avoid burnout.

If you really get to a breaking point, don't quit right away. Tell your bosses
that you'll be forced to quit if working conditions don't change, but there
are things they can do to keep you (better hours, remote work, etc.)

~~~
gozur88
>Tell your bosses that you'll be forced to quit if working conditions don't
change …

If you put your boss over a barrel like that he'll make the changes you
want... long enough to replace you. It's better to be a little less direct -
"I want you to know I'm really unhappy with this situation." The implied
threat is still there, but your boss won't feel like he's giving in to
blackmail if he gives you what you want.

~~~
EC1
I currently only have one chip, which is the pay cut I took to work here. If I
use that chip right away, it screams entitlement, which is only compounded by
my age. I need to finish the rest of their product and really wrap everything
up and prove my worth in relation to their previous developers with hard
numbers. Then I need to convince the other employees to side with me.

Only then I can play a full hand instead of pleading and begging and being at
their mercy.

The first chip only benefits me. The first two benefit me and the founders.
All three benefit everyone in the company.

I think I'll sit on it for awhile longer and go with this strategy. It's
perfect because it makes sense for everyone, and if they reject it I know it's
not the right company for me because at that level, that decision would be
coming from a place of fear, and that's not somewhere I want to work.

~~~
thatcat
>Then I need to convince the other employees to side with me.

This seems like a bit much. Why involve the other employees?

~~~
EC1
I don't want to magically be the only one who gets to be special and work from
home. There's only a few of us, we're in a shared office with our laptops.
They've also voiced their discontent.

~~~
kspaans
Try easing into it with a "everyone gets 1 WorkFromHome day a week" policy. If
there is an enterprisey vacation-planning tool you use already, WFH can be
added as a special kind of vacation. This means the managers can approve WFH
requests so that, e.g. not everyone works from home the same day of the week.

~~~
dragonwriter
Since WFH breaks in person coordination, you actually probably are better off
with the whole team doing it at the same time. I mean, for something like
software development.

------
Spendar89
I'd work on being more humble, and open-minded, especially considering your
lack of experience. This is one of the more ridiculous posts I've read on HN.

~~~
archenemy
Maybe you should practice what you preach. I'm 34 now and I'd side with the OP
on this.

I did a similar thing on my first job: took their web app codebase and totally
remade it in the first couple of months, with demonstrable gains on efficiency
(Mind it: it was the first web application made by some guys whose previous
experience was in Sybase PowerBuilder). I was given a raise the same week I
demoed it to my bosses.

I still do programming and I'm still being humbled frequently by the awesome
things some of my younger coworkers code effortlessly.

I also share with OP the impression that 8 hours coding as a daily thing is
totally overkill. That's suited for factory work where every minute you're not
cranking out stuff means losses.

My 'sweet spot' for coding seems to top at 4 hours, a few hours resting and
then maybe another couple hours at the end of the day if I feel like I found a
better way to do it.

Fortunately I have flexible hours where I work, but I'm still suppossed to put
in 8h every day. The result is: when things go well, I complete my tasks and
are left with at least 3 hours a day where I'm supposed to be working (so: no
relax, no rest, you're on the clock); and when things are not going so well,
mostly due to planning mistakes from high up, I have to put in my 8 hours, and
then some more.

So please, go tell to be more open-minded to the right people, and let people
work to the best of their abilities.

------
misja111
What you should do is let your bosses know that you're not happy in the
current situation. Be reasonable but on the other hand do make clear that if
the situation does not improve, you will start looking for another job. But
tell them that you would regret that because there are also many aspects of
your job which you like. (assuming of course that this is the case)

And then, if things still don't get better, switch jobs!

~~~
theWold
Nice, Polite, but Direct. I'll always recommend this type of way when facing
conflict.

Speak your problems logically and show that you've given some thought to them
when you talk with your boss.

------
rajacombinator
You're right that it is difficult, probably infeasible, to program
productively for 8 hours per day. But there's value for a youngster like
yourself in toughening up and working a crappy job for some time. When you go
back to a better situation, hopefully you will appreciate it more.

------
byoung2
I was in this situation, now I'm contracting with Surge, working 100%
remotely, making my own hours. There are days where I work 4 hours, and days
that I work 12. I enjoy not commuting, being able to work out in the middle of
the day, take my daughter to the park, cook lunch, etc.

~~~
erkanerol
In stackoverflow, there is a job advertisement:
[http://stackoverflow.com/jobs/15018/hiring-senior-
software-e...](http://stackoverflow.com/jobs/15018/hiring-senior-software-
engineers-surge)

The sentence is very important NO OFFSHORE CANDIDATES

~~~
romanovcode
This is so ridiculous:

    
    
        .NET / C#
    
        Node.JS
    
        Java
    
        PHP
    
        Ruby
    
        Python
    
        C++
    
        Objective C
    
        Android
    
        Windows Desktop (WCF, MVVM)
    
        BS in Computer Science
    

What exactly are they doing with all these languages? :)

~~~
TranquilMarmot
It says _One or more of the following skillsets is also required_

You wouldn't necessarily be doing all of those things every day- I'm assuming
they go out and find short-term work then assign it to you and you do it. So
you could be doing just about anything.

As a side note; I'm only a few years into my career and have extensive
experience with a vast majority of those technologies/frameworks, and picking
up a new one is a cinch if you just put the time in.

------
NameNickHN
I've read advice from someone a while ago about this topic. The gist was that
you have to ease your bosses into letting you work from home.

Start with the odd day like when you're sick or when there is a single day
between weekend and holiday. Prove that you can do the same or more work this
way.

Once you convinced them that your remote working does no harm or even helps,
you can extend things.

------
EVdotIO
Welcome to the absurdity of life champ.

------
poof131
You are not being ridiculous and don't let people hate on you.

1\. I see expert programming similar to Mathematics.[1] If you can do two 2-3
hour spurts that produces a ton, it can be draining and you need time to
recharge. It's generally better to do a smaller amount of excellent work when
programming than a lot of easier busy work. One star feature or optimization
or whatever built right can have a much larger impact than hours of crap work
in the wrong direction.

2\. In this day in age of material production, why someone with a valuable
skill can't earn a decent living with less than 40 hours a week work is kind
of pathetic. Don't feel bad if that is what you want. If you are providing
value to the company, that is the primary thing, not how many hours your butt
is in a chair. Also, this relates to #4.

3\. Time in the office can be valuable. I wouldn't dismiss it entirely. It
makes communication a ton easier and can build a better sense of team in
people, but remote should be acceptable too (at least part time). Inability to
handle remote probably signals a weak team.

4\. Most founders are closer to the VCs than to you. Know what the cap table
looks like and what your reasonable exits look like. If you are as talented as
you say, make sure you aren't getting screwed. First hire should at least be
in the 2-3 percent range and that can still be a screw job if you are
providing so much value as to build out their entire tech stack. Remember,
most likely exit is none, and then most likely is middle of the road (Founders
make $5-10M each, you make what? At 1/20 = $250-500k) Over four years, really
as much as you are probably giving up if you worked for a big company
(including stock and bonus and more salary). So 50% chance nothing, 40% chance
same as you would have made +/\- a bit, 10% chance you make double, triple?
.1-1% chance FU money. The founders will probably be flying lear jets before
you buy a house. There's a lot of fucking stupid people getting a lot of
money, so keep this in mind. [2, 3] Just because people are founders doesn't
mean they are competent, just means a slightly above average chance, like
going to a good school.

The fact their previous team of developers left is a red flag. The fact that
other employees have issues in a small team is a red flag. "Corporate"
founders with other people building their tech? Your biggest issue may not be
remote but the possible turd of a startup you are working at. 5 years? Startup
years are like dog years, how is the company still alive and not growing.
Sounds like a small lifestyle business calling itself a startup.

While other people are trashing your arogance, I sympathize. Keep moving until
you find a place that feels right, where you respect the people you are
working with, and where you feel you are valued and earning or learning or
living the way you want. It's your life, don't let other people tell you how
to live it.

[1] [http://calnewport.com/blog/2012/08/31/henri-poincares-
four-h...](http://calnewport.com/blog/2012/08/31/henri-poincares-four-hour-
work-day/)

[2] [http://nextshark.com/8-reasons-clinkles-lucas-duplan-is-
the-...](http://nextshark.com/8-reasons-clinkles-lucas-duplan-is-the-worst-
startup-founder-ever/)

[3] [https://www.quora.com/Why-do-so-many-people-want-to-see-
Clin...](https://www.quora.com/Why-do-so-many-people-want-to-see-Clinkle-
fail/answer/Michael-O-Church)

------
wkubiak
It really seems unlikely that the situation will change in your current
workplace. Best to start searching for something more fitting to your wishes.
Good luck!

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kasey_junk
>First hire...old developers of the past 5 years

Are they used to working with contractors? If so they just might need to be
educated on the difference between FTEs & guns for hire.

~~~
0_00_0
>FTE

Fuck The Engineers

------
GFK_of_xmaspast
If you're the first hire, who were the old developers you're cleaning up
after.

------
LifeQuestioner
You don't have to stay... You can find a remote job...

~~~
chippy
It's our market. If you are even an average coder you can have the pick of the
market.

