
A Third of Valve Is Now Working on VR - jn1234
http://uploadvr.com/valve-third-vr/
======
jn1234
The by far most interesting comment from the thread is this one (It's by Alan
Yates who works on Vive/SteamVR)
[https://www.reddit.com/r/Vive/comments/4osav8/lighthouse_tra...](https://www.reddit.com/r/Vive/comments/4osav8/lighthouse_tracked_osvr/d4geko7).

>Of course. We want AR/VR/MR to be ubiquitous. Over the past four years or so
I've seen many companies big and small bring their demos to show and tell.
They all have bits and pieces of the larger puzzle. Good eye tracking,
interesting haptic techniques, next generation display technologies. But most
of them are narrowly focused on their thing, and struggle alone to make a
successful product. Partially this was just because the market didn't exist
but also many of them were/are just trying to boil the ocean. The minimum
viable product is now a pretty high bar and that can stifle innovation. We can
offer a running start, the traditionally "hard" parts of HMD technology, the
things other than GPUs that kept VR niche for so long. In return we ask that
your device leveraging our technology works with our platform. And mostly that
is it. We won't ask that it only works on our platform, we won't stop you from
targeting other industries. This gives both you and your users freedom of
choice and security that isn't dependant on either party's future decisions.
It is a pretty good deal really. Our platform has a rapidly growing collection
of great content for your end-users so your product won't be an orphan and you
don't need to convince anyone to author for it. Day one people can fire up
Tilt Brush and have their minds blown by your awesome new hardware.

If Valve games are "locked" to SteamVR and won't play on Oculus, then nobody
is going to buy an Oculus. Does Facebook really think that people are going to
choose Lucky's Tale over Portal 3 or Half-Life 3? Facebook is going to have to
capitulate and focus on their hardware advantage.

~~~
ben174
Amazing to hear someone who works for Valve actually mention "Half-Life 3".

~~~
bobbles
That paragraph wasn't part of the quote, it ends the sentence before "If
Valve..."

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partiallypro
In all of my experiencing of the new VR products, I am firmly in the position
that it's not ready for public consumption yet and won't be for quite some
time. The only real reason it's being pushed hard is because people have a
fear of missing out. Meanwhile, if I were a company I'd be focusing on AR,
because at least there you can push for enterprise customers which won't need
the full immersion yet that a general consumer will clamor for. (I also think
AR has a much brighter future)

I expect a lot of VR units are shown off to friends and thrown into the closet
or put on a shelf to collect dust. It's something you show off, but not
something you'll (at least 98% of people) use.

~~~
flatline
VR fundamentally conflicts with how the eyes focus, and it will never be
solved with the current technology. For some people it's not a big problem,
but a sizeable portion of the population will be unable to use VR at all or
for any extended period without ending up with eye strain, headaches, nausea,
and/or a general sense of malaise. It will always be something of a niche
technology IMO - very cool, but of limited use.

It's the same basic problem that 3D films have. There's a reason that films
are still shown in 2D. I have only ever watched one film in 3D and it was
overall an unpleasant experience that I don't care to repeat.

Application developers could work to mitigate the worst of the effects on the
eyes, and that's something that would help adoption. That has, however, not
happened with films and I doubt it will with games - everyone seems to want to
give people as great a sense of depth as possible, which simply doesn't work
_at all_ for many people.

AR largely eliminates these problems, and I'm inclined to agree there is more
overall promise there.

~~~
arielweisberg
Do you own a CV1 or Vive? How many hours do you have in them? How many people
have you demoed them to?

The last pair I demoed to spent 3 hours in the Rift, with a single person
spending two hours without stopping. This was their first experience ever with
VR.

VR sickness is a thing and it's varies from person to person and use case to
use case, but I have never experienced (personally or vicariously) issues
related to eye strain. The lenses are supposed to take care of that by
allowing your eyes to focus at a distance.

One of the reasons room scale is making so much noise is that it's a very
different experience in terms of VR sickness. Far fewer people get sick in
room scale because positional and rotational tracking are good enough that it
feels "right". There are fewer motion cues mismatched with visual cues because
you are physically moving and the headset is tracking 1:1.

Room scale also has vastly improved immersiveness (now we are calling it
presence) especially when combined with tracked controllers and environments
that afford all the interactions you would expect from whatever environment
you are in.

~~~
marricks
I've had similar experiences. Showed Edge of Nowhere to someone a week ago,
they spent 3 solid hours in.

Tried talking to them to see if they wanted to go for a walk or something. No
response, too engrossed in game.

~~~
ethbro
_> Tried talking to them to see if they wanted to go for a walk or something.
No response, [too] engrossed in game._

Future in a nutshell.

~~~
steven777400
The Fermi paradox has been solved.

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danso
The Valve publications page has a few slides and documents relating to Valve
presentations regarding VR:

[http://www.valvesoftware.com/company/publications.html](http://www.valvesoftware.com/company/publications.html)

One of my favorite tidbits comes in the presentation, "Lessons learned porting
Team Fortress 2 to Virtual Reality", on preventing VR motion sickness:
[http://media.steampowered.com/apps/valve/2013/Team_Fortress_...](http://media.steampowered.com/apps/valve/2013/Team_Fortress_in_VR_GDC.pdf)

> _Don’t change the user’s horizon line, ever. You can see here how the camera
> follows the motion and rotation of the character’s head and so it rolls.
> Your actual head isn’t going to roll when you get killed by an Eyelander, so
> the mismatch will make you sick._

Here's the presentation's video, bookmarked at the aforementioned insight:

[https://youtu.be/Gpr0FE2ATaY?t=19m36s](https://youtu.be/Gpr0FE2ATaY?t=19m36s)

For those of you non-TF2 players, the "Eyelander" is the name of a player-
wieldable sword, and when it connects, the victim's head flies off and rolls
around the ground. Apparently simulating that effect (changing the user's
"horizon line") will make people very sick.

~~~
taberiand
To be fair, being decapitated in such a way that your head bounces and rolls
around will leave you feeling, at the least, very sick.

~~~
thekemkid
So what can be learned from this tidbit? Don't get decapitated.

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kendallpark
Of all the gaming companies, Valve makes the most sense to be this heavily
invested in VR--given their stake in the PC-industry.

Or maybe too many devs thought VR was the coolist project to work on and moved
to it. (Valve is known for their flat structure
[http://www.valvesoftware.com/company/Valve_Handbook_LowRes.p...](http://www.valvesoftware.com/company/Valve_Handbook_LowRes.pdf))

~~~
cleeus
> Or maybe too many devs thought VR was the coolist project to work on and
> moved to it.

I think it's this. That's the problem with hype waves in majority-ruled
organizations. Or I'm wrong and people will soon be sitting in the subway with
a VR headset on and playing Fruit Ninja in VR.

~~~
gberger
Valve doesn't make games that you can play sitting in the subway.

~~~
lghh
Valve also doesn't make Fruit Ninja, but they were just trying to make a
point.

~~~
milesokeefe
No, but they do profit from it being sold on their platform:

[http://store.steampowered.com/app/400760/](http://store.steampowered.com/app/400760/)

Well, technically not the brand name, but hey close enough.

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baldfat
Half-Life 3 on VR would be the killer app. It would be this generations Lotus
1 2 3.

Though I personally feel VR for video games are a lot like Wii its awesome for
a while then its collecting dust throughout the world. I really think the
future is Augmented Reality and VR will be for mostly media consumption.

~~~
whatever_dude
I disagree with that. I played (and finished) HL2 in VR and while it was more
of a prototype (e.g. loading screens were static) it already proved
modern(ish) FPS games are not the best application of VR. Too many kinks of
the genre do not translate well, while other features of VR are left
unexplored. For that matter, racing or space exploration games (where the
protagonist is seated) translate way better.

So I think the killer for VR will be something else entirely. Still from a
first person perspective, but way different from a modern shooter. In the same
way it took us a while to perfect what FPSs should be like, or what
platformers should be like, we're a bit far from what the perfect VR
experience genres will be.

~~~
dyeje
I don't think it's fair to judge the potential of VR FPS games based on
playing a game that's over a decade old and was in no way designed for VR.

~~~
whatever_dude
But that's my point. It is still a good indication of what a modern FPS is,
and of what HL3 would be. I don't see them changing the game radically to be a
"native" VR title, which is what VR needs (and which may not even be what we
call a FPS anymore).

~~~
dyeje
I agree, if HL3 is going to be one of the killer apps for VR then it will be
radically different. I think Valve have the resources to pull it off, and I
suppose we'll see what path they take.

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joezydeco
Jeri Ellsworth of CastAR (ex-Valve AR/VR hardware guru) did an interview
recently* where she mentioned that Valve was kind of "painting themselves in a
corner" by gearing their system's performance to play AAA-title games.

Now owners of those consoles will expect _every_ game to be an AAA title.

* [http://embedded.fm/episodes/156](http://embedded.fm/episodes/156) @ 53:20

~~~
laksjd
I don't quite follow her argument there. Valve's push for a powerful platform
will just mean that games that don't aim to be VR-Crysis have plenty of
performance to work with, making development much easier.

The 'office simulator' example doesn't really seem to be about graphics,
though, but about game length/most VR experiences being more tech demo than
game.

I don't think people are going to be surprised by that. The HMDs are so
expensive, and at least right now, so are the GPUs that can drive them, that
people won't just impulse buy them. People who are spending that much money on
a niche hobby like this will most likely know exactly what they are getting.

~~~
spaceisballer
If AMD can come through with the RX480 and works with VR for around $199 USD.
That makes VR a lot more accessible.

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vocatus_gate
I wish they would get back to what they used to do - make actual computer
games. I still can't shake the nagging suspicion that the recent VR hype is
just the product of the every-decade-or-so fad cycle (similar to what happened
in the 80's with it).

~~~
hew
Have you tried a headset yet? I think this time is different.

I thought it sounded like an early adopter money pit myself until I actually
tried a Rift. It won me over even while underpowered (MB Air!) in very simple
demos.

------
ksec
Side observation.

So Valve now has an better VR Set then Oculus. And all of a sudden every news
on VR seems to flowing in Valve direction.

This reminds me a lot of the early days when we move from iD 's Doom to
Valve's Half Life.

Note: ( John Carmack = CTO of Oculus and Founder of iD )

~~~
croon
I like competition as much as the next guy, but I'm happy as long as the more
open platform is more popular. Wish Oculus took a different route.

~~~
deanCommie
My prediction: Valve VR will be the choice for hardcore games/gamers. Oculus
VR will shift focus to more casual gaming (quick, fun, not graphically
superior), and more importantly media consumption (think: Facebook live 360
video of major media events like E3, or ComicCon, and eventually paid
subscription for viewing of live sporting events like courtside NBA games)

~~~
malchow
This. Facebook is more interested in VR for sports, messaging, telepresence,
news, ads, and entertainment media than it is for games.

Downside of that strategy is that the Valve/Vive bloc could produce radically
superior technology because gaming creates seductive technical barriers to
overcome. FB's intended uses do not.

~~~
fokov
Either Indy or F1 recently had a 360 degree view of the race from the top of
the car. I could imagine some fans would love that for all types of racing
(NASCAR included). Just turn your head to look left/right.

------
fnazeeri
I have been using an Oculus Rift for a few weeks and the experience is
breathtaking. For example, there is an Apollo 11 educational game where you
get to experience the mission from the point of view of Neil Armstrong or
Michael Collins. I think it is hard to argue that "experiencing" history isn't
far superior than reading about it. And the pure games like EVE Valkrie give
you a cold sweat they are so immersive. Just my The cost right now are high,
but no more than an iPhone. I think mainstream isn't too far away. My $0.02 at
least.

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JanneVee
Why wouldn't they? The computer industry is stagnating because people can use
phones and tablets for most of their computing needs. VR has the potential to
drive sales of high-end hardware again. And Valve has skin in that game.

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contingencies
I've just spent a week here in Shenzhen, China. What was the most impressive
thing? There are literally entire floors in the electronics markets here
filled with VR headsets. Even if it's early stage hardware, someone has to be
buying them.

As for killer apps, like every other technology it's a fair bet that
commercial success #1 will be porn.

From a more cognitive standpoint, I've long felt that what segregates spatial
awareness from other senses is the sheer volume of data that can be presented,
reasoned with and remembered. As old school hunter-gatherer-wanderer primates,
it's our highest bandwidth input. This reality will eventually be utilized for
problem solving (eg. VR excel spreadsheet visualizations and black box /
static code analysis may become a non-gimmick norm).

------
alimbada
I've come to realise that Valve is no longer a game developer.

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diziet
VR is amazing and the opportunity is incredible. However, I am worried worried
that the technology to produce high enough resolution displays will take some
time to get here. Without smartphones driving the demand, will we get to 5-10k
dpi displays for VR tech? We have 800 or so dpi displays rolling out, with
current generation devices filling their FOV with about 500 dpi screens. We're
driving 1.3-1.8m pixels per eye, but that is not enough if you want to pretend
to gaze at something 20 meters away. The pixel density, especially in the
center area of the display, should be much higher. Otherwise only abstract low
polygon count content will work.

~~~
conception
I'm also worried about the actual effects of motion sickness once it becomes
actually mass consumer affordable. Generally, reports are that VR can be
particularly rough for most folks.

~~~
slavik81
While I enjoyed the DK2, I got unbearably sick from Half-Life 2 within a half
hour. Playing with Tilt Brush on the Vive, I didn't feel the slightest bit
queasy.

Not sure if the difference was the hardware or the software, but it seems like
a solvable problem.

~~~
Shish2k
FPS games are inherently a million times worse for VR sickness than room-scale
walking around, since the former has the mismatch of the avatar walking around
with the player sitting in a chair, while the latter is 1:1

------
techdragon
So one third of Valve is working on VR... absolutely definitely not working on
Half Life 3 or Portal 3. Which pushes their possible/probable/hypothetical
release dates even further into the future. :-(

~~~
kin
Or... they could be working on Half Life 3 in VR?

~~~
m_mueller
When you think about it, Half Life would actually be a prime setting for a VR
game. The reason being that VR FPS work best when you can teleport rather than
physically move (or move the camera through a continuous operation). Half Life
always has had characters that can teleport, so it's not a big leap.

~~~
CaptSpify
Additionally, HL3 will have to be _big_ to wow fans, or it will be a
disappointment. People have been waiting a long time, and riding the hype-
train the whole way. The HL games were revolutionary, and, this would be
another revolutionary step for them.

~~~
douche
Which is too bad. I really just want a conclusion to the story. If they used
the old modified Quake Gold engine to deliver that, I would be psyched.

------
blastofpast
I wish Valve was publicly traded so that I can invest.

~~~
ungzd
Invest in Clash of Clans, not this nostalgic shooter company. New generation
never played such quakey games. Even Valve already knows that Half-life and so
on has commercial value comparable to Nethack and is building new click-to-pay
free-to-play mobile-first responsive disruptive VR-first AI-first isomorphic
madness.

[http://www.theverge.com/2016/6/21/11986712/tencent-
supercell...](http://www.theverge.com/2016/6/21/11986712/tencent-supercell-
softbank-majority-stake-acquisition)

~~~
zelias
Valve would be a fantastic investment. Steam is essentially the app store for
PC gamers -- which is an extremely dedicated (albeit smaller) userbase that
consistently spends money buying and installing new games that come out on the
platform (unlike actual mobile apps, installations of which are on the
decline).

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intrasight
After reading this thread, I have to comments:

1\. Exclusivity on a headset? Replace "headset" with "monitor" and you get how
childish, stupid, and impractical that will be.

2\. I don't think monitor based games will transition well to headsets.

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giskarda
And in the meantime no Half Life 3. What about priorities?

~~~
ungzd
They can outsource it to Chinese companies. Gamers nowadays are not choosy and
will play anything that has "Half-life" franchise label on it, "Doom" of 2016
confirmed it.

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erikb
Half Life 3 will have VR confirmed!

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josefdlange
Half-Life 3 Confirmed

------
ProAm
HL3-D

------
totoz
Valvr

