
Ask HN: Senior dev, no degree – which countries may accept me? - devb0x
I have a decade plus experience in dev, traditional windows desktop, SQL server, .net, c#, asp, as well as open source mysql, php, python, bash on linux and aix. I am skilled in systems design, requirements gathering and have led a small team. I am a good communicator and able to interact with stakeholders at all levels.<p>I have a family and want to immigrate for their sake.<p>I do not have a degree and most likely will not get one at this point in time. Are there any countries where I can apply for jobs without a degree that will provide me and mine permanent residence?
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jrockway
I believe Hong Kong has a point system that counts work experience and degrees
equally:

[http://www.immd.gov.hk/en/services/hk-visas/quality-
migrant-...](http://www.immd.gov.hk/en/services/hk-visas/quality-migrant-
admission/points-based-tests.html)

If you're under 40 and have 10 years of experience, there's your 80 points.
(You also get 10 points for English. What a deal.)

------
dashdot
In Switzerland, we have the dual education system [1]. This means highschool
students usually choose a profession while they're still in school and go for
an apprenticeship after graduation. An apprenticeship in ICT-professions takes
4 years and when finished successfully they receive the "Federal Certificate
of Competence".

There is a program called "Informa" [2] which validates the knowledge of
experienced craftsmen and gives them a chance to receive the same kind of
degree like apprentice graduates. Which also makes them eligible to further
education paths, like higher professional schools (to get a diploma if you
like).

If you want to move to Switzerland, you don't have to worry about the
language. Many IT-companies here are multi cultural and speak both German and
English. We have a high quality of life here, the goverment is friendly and
our laws favours employees.

I work for a small but successful company in Zurich. We'll move to a bigger
office in January 2014 and need skilled developers to fill it :) We mainly
create web applications and other cloud solutions, but also windows apps and
banking software. We primarily use C#. Oh... and we don't care about
certificates and degrees. We need skill, not paper.

If you have any questions, don't hesitate to contact me - dashdot at dashdot
dot ch.

[1]
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dual_education_system](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dual_education_system)
[2]
[http://www.informa.modellf.ch/index.html](http://www.informa.modellf.ch/index.html)

~~~
kafkaesque
Is the job market for entry-level web developers with no CS/BS degree pretty
poor like in th US and Canada? I'm Canadian and hold a BA. I've just started
doing web development and I'm interested in taking advantage of my visa
options.

~~~
dashdot
At the moment the demand here for developers is clearly higher than the
supply. However, mainly CS/BS are demanded. And if you're not experienced or
you don't want to make an apprenticeship, the market gets very thin.

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byoung2
It would be helpful to know where you currently have citizenship. That may
limit your options more than the lack of degree.

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drakaal
It is not the degree, it is the specialization. If I were you I would take 2-3
months and learn everything there is to know about a very specialized subset
of tech.

When I was at Microsoft I hired a guy out of Russia who was self taught, but
knew pretty much everything there was to know about Forward Error Correction
in Mpeg Transport Streams. So we go him a work visa.

From the work Visa after a time you can convert to a Green Card.

Talk with a recruiter, find something they will need lots of that they can't
find in the US. Learn everything there is to know, and get sponsored.

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pontifexa
Canada has a points system. You'll miss out on a lot of points for not having
any higher education, but you can recoup some of that if your spouse matches
the template:

[http://www.workpermit.com/canada/points_calculator.htm](http://www.workpermit.com/canada/points_calculator.htm)

~~~
3pt14159
Also note about Canada: The startup visa lets you have only one year of
University and still qualify.

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ryanSrich
I'm confused about why this is still a common question. I haven't seen a job
posting in ages that doesn't say "CS degree or equivelent experience".

Of course if you want to do research at Google you'll need a PHD. However 99%
of dev positions don't require even a BS.

~~~
yen223
It's not just about job requirements. A lot of countries require, at a
minimum, a Bachelor's degree in order to get a work permit.

~~~
ryanSrich
I was not aware of this. I assume this is only for folks without citizenship
for the country they seek to work in?

~~~
TheCoelacanth
Yes, I've never heard of any country that makes you get a work permit if you
are a citizen.

------
ysekand
You should look into the following:

[http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2013/dec/06/technology...](http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2013/dec/06/technology-
experts-fast-track-uk-visas-funding)

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bjeanes
Speaking as someone on a work visa in the US, I can tell you that their
requirement is generally 12 years of experience in the field, with each year
of higher education (in that field) counting for 3 years. So a 4-year degree
works, as does 2 years towards a degree and 6 years professional experience.

With a decade or more of experience, you might just qualify for something like
an H1-B and apply for permanent residency while there.

Of course, perhaps you are already in the US and wanting to leave for
elsewhere...

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jzzskijj
Japan accepted me with 10 years of working experience and no degree (studies
98% done, no intention to finish). The company that was hiring me applied for
my engineer's working visa. I got immediately the three year working visa. I
didn't have JLPT (Japanese-Language Proficiency Test) certificate either.

Apartment, moving (suitcase + backbag), traveling & the rest was handled by
me. When pulling from the right strings and being very determined gets you
far.

~~~
devb0x
Do you speak conversational japanese? Are you coping with the language?

~~~
jzzskijj
When I joined I had completed a few courses in open university. It was a
start, but would have been much easier, if my level was higher.

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Nursie
It's worth inveatigating australia. You may not get as many points without a
degree, but you may make the cut. I believe to get rated as a software dev you
need either a degree amd four years experience, or no degree plus 7.

It is not a simple or quick process to get PR in aus though, took me 18
months.

~~~
ajtaylor
I've been in Australia for over 2 years, coming in under the 457 program. No
degree either, and it didn't seem to be a problem. Getting PR through a 457 is
pretty straightforward, though it will take 2 years and is more expensive now
than it used to be. The upside is there's no skills test going this route.

~~~
Nursie
Does require a job though, and you need to keep employed as if you're out of
work for a month you have to leave.

I went the 157 route, took longer but you're much safer.

~~~
ajtaylor
I have the luxury of having both of things. At the time, I had neither the
money nor the time to deal with getting a 157 visa. Guess I've been lucky so
far.

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mcv
I've never considered that having a degree might be an issue for immigration.
As far as I know, to work in Netherland to need you need either an income
above a certain threshold, or the hiring company needs to prove they can't
find someone with your skills locally.

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droope
NZ will accept you if you find a job and/or can prove your experience:

[http://www.newzealandnow.govt.nz/new-zealand-visa/work-
visa/...](http://www.newzealandnow.govt.nz/new-zealand-visa/work-visa/skilled-
migrant-visas)

------
richo
In the US 3 years of work experience is good for 1 year of "uni". So 12 years
industry experience is a 4 year bachelors degree for immigration purposes.

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jeanlucas
With no doubt, Brazil.

~~~
andrewcooke
i am unsure of details (a long time since i came here), but i think also
chile. i am unsure because i do have a degree (a phd) and did provide it at
some point. but i entered on a tourist visa, got a job _offer_ and then
applied for change of status using that. as far as i remember they were happy
to take me provided i would work and pay taxes. if you speak spanish most of
chile's laws seem to be online, so you can probably dig up more info yourself.

since you are with a family, things may be more complex. public education here
is not very good (i understand; i don't have children, but it is one of the
issues in the current elections). there are private schools, but that implies
you have to earn more. but if you can earn a decent wage then life here is
pretty good - friendly people, relatively little crime, a more relaxed pace of
life, great weather, good, low priced, fresh food (but imported goods are more
expensive), very stable politics (for s america).

downsides are large variations in wealth, and relatively little in the way of
public services, compared to w europe (i am english) and a certain lack of
experience with foreigners (which if you are dark skinned can be quite
obvious, and often rather naive, racism). also, hours are long in many chilean
companies (how long you are at your desk can seem more important than what you
do).

i don't regret coming here, at all, but i am (relatively) well off (and, i
realise i haven't said anywhere above, live with - but am not married to - a
chilean, which makes life significantly easier when first finding your way
around).

------
devb0x
Germany in particular caused this question and I am seriously needing to make
the move. My English is perfect. Thanks for all the answers

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dobbsbob
work remotely anywhere you want. live in a country with low cost of living and
use online portfolio to get work

~~~
jimhefferon
You missed this.

> I have a family and want to immigrate for their sake.

I believe OP meant _em_ igrate

~~~
stefan_kendall
I believe OP could mean emigrate alone or immigrate with an implied "to a
better place than where he is." You emigrate _from_ , and he didn't mention
where he was from.

Or the difference doesn't matter, because any large group of English speaking
people will only use the word "immigrate" exclusively.

------
devb0x
apologies on the word immigrate. I would like to emigrate to another country.

~~~
munimkazia
You immigrate to another country and emigrate from your country. You were
actually right the first time, but those two words are often used
interchangeably, so it's no big deal.

Anyway, I am a college dropout, and I am facing the exact same issue as you.
Unfortunately, I just have four years of experience, which is too less for a
non-graduate to get a work permit in most countries. I was applying for remote
jobs for the past few weeks without too much luck. It is really hard for an
Indian with 4 years of experience, and without any solid experience in
Ruby/Python/Javascript-MVC (those seem to be the most popular skills in the
market). I just got another job in another city in India, which pays a little
more, but it is more than what I have, so I have decided to move for now, and
will probably re-look my remote work/immigration plans after some years.

------
zebra
You are maybe from Bulgaria or Romania, right?

~~~
ronaldx
Bulgarians and Romanians have the freedom to work and reside in many EU
countries already, and all of them from January 1st.

------
_3u10
It really depends on where you are, I'm Canadian and in the same boat.

If I had a degree I could get a TN1 VISA, in 6 months I'll have enough work
exp to qualify anyway (12 years). I could get an H1B but it seems like too
much hassle.

The UK will apparently accept me, I have to say there's a world of difference
between UK and US immigration, anytime I've dealt with US immigration I felt
like wanting to do anything another than vacation in the US was criminal. In
the UK however they seemed A OK as long as I had a return flight, they were
even friendly.

Although it didn't pan out as I was extremely jet lagged, sleep deprived and
bombed the interview I'd highly recommend talking to Facebook, their people
were super accommodating and really went the extra mile to get talent on
board. They basically figured out all my VISA options worldwide for me.

~~~
mahyarm
The hiring company will take care of most of the H1-B bullshit & cost for you,
so from that perspective that shouldn't be a problem. The US also pays far
better than Canada or the UK.

Some weird grumpy people at the border that you might deal with for 5 hours a
year tops seems a bit out of proportion. Plus SFO is pretty friendly as far as
us border people go. They wont treat you as a criminal if you have the H1-B
visa already anyway.

~~~
derefr
> Some weird grumpy people at the border that you might deal with for 5 hours
> a year tops seems a bit out of proportion.

For the TN-1 visa, these "weird grumpy people" may, during any one of those
visits, choose to deny you re-entry, completely at their whim. And there's
nothing you can do about it if they do.

~~~
mahyarm
As a guy who re-enters the USA about 5 to 10 times a year with such a TN visa,
with SFO, SEA, local processing at YVR, and BC/WA land/sea border crossings
that is a very overblown worry. The more you cross the border, the more of a
'known' person you become and the less of a probability that becomes. You can
also appeal such denials, try applying again and so on.

The scariest part is when your applying for the TN visa at the border. Make
sure your hiring company lawyers draft the letter properly and possibly bring
proof it's a real company if it's a new startup and so on. Don't do it
yourself. Don't act like your trying to commit fraud with them because your
nervous, and stick to whatever your paperwork says. If it says 'computer
systems analyst', your job is a computer systems analyst. Not lead CSA, just
CSA. Same with 'graphic designer', 'accountant' and so on.

