
The Counterculture Is Better in the Suburbs - proveanegative
http://www.triggerwarning.us/the-counterculture-is-better-in-the-suburbs/
======
shanemhansen
This is actually a common feeling. You need only watch SLC Punk which
addresses this issue.

I really became aware of anti-sheep-sheep in college. I had a pretty tame
outside appearance. My hair was short. I shaved. I dressed in a way that was
affordable in the town south western I grew up in (Old Navy, maybe some music
tshirts from Hot Topic). Ironically I actually hung out with some real
counterculture people (by the definition of this article) growing up. They
accepted me although I didn't always dress like them. There was no way to
dress like them because there was no one style.

My first summer job in college was working with a group that was basically a
group of liberal hippies from the east coast, and I don't mean that in an
insulting sense. We did backpacking and trail work for an americorps program.
I initially didn't get the job, but my girlfriend did. When someone dropped
out of the program I joined.

Immediately I stuck out like a sore thumb. These people weren't even close to
being accepting of any ideas other than their own. They were conformists. I
didn't have the right hair, it wasn't long enough. I didn't wear the right
brand of shoes, Chacos were required. I didn't even drink the right kind of
water because I refilled a cheap gatorade bottle rather than use a Nalgene.
Even the things I did that happened fit in with the group were questioned.
During our first team party I mentioned how much I liked "The Doors", and I
someone had the balls to say I didn't look like I would like that kind of
music.

I ate the wrong food because I wasn't vegan. The chain smokers told me: "don't
you know the crap you're putting into your body?".

After 3 months of backpacking and working in national parks my appearance was
quite a bit scruffier. The head of the program actually had the balls to say
"I looked like a team member now".

I began to value people who had their own ideas, regardless of whether those
ideas were or weren't mainstream. I'd rather see new culture than counter-
culture. I'm suspicious of people who define themselves by being the
disagreeing with mainstream because to me that seems just as restrictive as
conforming.

It's extremely rare to find anyone who's not looking to be validated by their
peers.

~~~
underdown
I don't mean to be a peer validating you, but this comment really hit the mark
for me.

------
jkyle
This article serves as a pretty clear cut example of the pejorative
"hipsterism". She's essentially rejecting the very culture she identified with
previously solely because of its perceived higher degree of popularity in
metro areas.

She also has a wrong headed idea about metropolitan areas in general and about
San Francisco specifically. These are not cities that have inherently
normalized counter-culture, raising a generation of conformist non-
conformists. They are centers of migration. The overwhelming majority of the
population is not from San Francisco or even from California.

The reason you don't see many counter culture types amongst adults in the
suburbs is because, by the very nature of conformity, it's difficult to get a
job and making a living as an outsider. So as you grow up, you either conform
or you move somewhere where there are like minded individuals. San Francisco
didn't create counter culture...the counter culture moved there and created
San Francisco.

She didn't move to S.F. and find out city kids are posers. She moved there and
found 1,000's who moved there from the suburbs just like her. Confronted with
the cognitive dissonance of discovering that she's not a unique snowflake and,
in her own way, is just as conformist as "mainstream", she decided to declare
herself "authentic" and every one else a poser.

She was counter culture _before_ it was cool. For real.

 _edit_

I've seen this sort of reaction so many times it deserves its own logical
fallacy.

The True Scotsman Fallacy.

The True Scotsman Fallacy is the assertion that oneself, or one's inner group,
is the only true representation of a particular culture, viewpoint, or
interest group. All other groups are rejected for various, seemingly
arbitrarily selected, criteria.

~~~
samatman
May I suggest the People's Front of Judea fallacy?

~~~
mcphage
Splitters!

------
bunderbunder
Is there a temporal factor here the author's missing? The specific
countercultural elements she's talking about are all the best-known artifacts
from the countercultures of 30, 40 years ago. Listening to GG Allin in New
York isn't subversive because in New York he's been old hat since around about
the time that I suspect many of the people reading this article were still
learning to read. Listening to GG Allin in the suburbs might be, though,
because it would have taken years or decades for him to show up as a new thing
in the suburbs of south Florida.

The Book of the SubGenius was also pretty darn subversive by the standards of
the whitebread town I grew up in, but the cultural context in which I
understood it sure changed a lot after I grew up, got a job, and found myself
occasionally having drinks after work with a colleague who happened to help
write it. She was nearly old enough to be my mom, and found my enthusiasm for
what she considers to be a youthful lark to be rather adorable.

I bet my parents also thought it was adorable when I discovered the music they
grew up on when I was a kid. Or rather, perhaps they were irritated because by
then the psychedelic counterculture they belonged to had just become another
puppet to use for selling processed cheese products.

I don't know that I can really judge the urban counterculture for the city I
live in nowadays. I'm too busy being old and married and raising a kid and
paying the bills to really notice it. And I'm in bed by the time the shows
start, anyway.

------
sanoli
Sure, countercultures have their own social norms that their members conform
to, and can behave just as sheeply. The thing is, the regular guy from the
suburbs who doesn't do anything 'different' can be the awesome, interesting
person you think only your 'freak' friends were/are. The clothes and labels
are all just junk. You got it right on the big city counterculture, but still
getting it wrong when looking at the suburbs you grew up on.

~~~
kiba
We're all in a subculture of some kind.

And in pretty much every subcultures, there's clothes, labels, things, and
activities that 'define' you as a member of.

~~~
eli_gottlieb
Except for the subcultures who are _actually_ trying to take over the world,
and who therefore dress and self-label _exactly_ so as to fit into the
mainstream.

------
msabalau
How narcissistic does one have to be to think that an important characteristic
of being for or against "the war" is how alienated and edgy it makes you feel?

And while a sense of "not being a part of the crowd" does impact the
subjective experience of culture, to put that at the center of one's
appreciation of is hollow and empty. There's a reason why people view hipster
"I liked it before it was cool" attitude with contempt.

~~~
blazespin
Feeling deeply alienated can make one hyper alert, which can lead to
interesting art if you don't let it kill you.

My big problem with the article was the idea that Miami is considered
suburbs...

------
cwp
This guy needs do some travelling. If you want to feel different, go some
place where you really are different. Go live in Mongolia. Immerse yourself in
the art scene in Milan. Move to a favela.

If you just want to be different for its own sake, then sure, being a goth in
the burbs will work. But if there's any point at all to it—artistic,
spiritual, practical or whatever-you'll get way more benefit from immersing
yourself in a genuinely foreign culture.

~~~
ema
FYI the author is a woman.

------
Xcelerate
I wish people would just behave the way they want and allow everyone else to
do the same (as long as no one is being hurt).

I've often thought that extreme liberals and extreme conservatives are far
more similar to each other than they are to those in the middle. Both groups
have a system of fixed, rigid beliefs. Their mind has been made up on an issue
before you even begin discussing the topic, and the use of logic and reason
fails spectacularly on them. The only difference between them all is that they
just happened to be born into different environments, so their particular
beliefs are mere manifestations of chance.

I'll ask my friends occasionally, "Why you believe that?", and I'm amazed when
I realize that beyond a few brief soundbites, there's no real foundation
beneath their viewpoints. Strong emotions but little rationale.

And the problem is that these same people always want to enforce their way of
thinking on everyone else. I just don't know why. I'm unsure about almost all
of my beliefs -- there's so many variables and so much data behind most of
these subject that I'm perplexed about how _anyone_ can be so certain they're
right.

Quick tip for identifying people like this: if you are debating with someone
and they quickly become emotional, angry, or start using a variety of logical
fallacies
([http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fallacies](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fallacies)),
then you're dealing with someone whose beliefs have no substance. The rules
apply both ways though; this tip applies only if you didn't provoke them
somehow. (For instance, I can become angry in a debate when someone starts
attacking my character rather than my position.)

~~~
kwyjiboo
> Quick tip for identifying people like this: if you are debating with someone
> and they quickly become emotional, angry, or start using a variety of
> logical fallacies
> ([http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fallacies](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fallacies)),
> then you're dealing with someone whose beliefs have no substance.

At this point, it's worth noting that none of Xcelerate's tips are provably
true, and his advice is, at best, an anecdotal fallacy. Every single one of
his methods for proving that a person's beliefs are baseless are, themselves,
baseless. People become emotional and angry for many reasons, and this is not
tightly tied to the underlying rationality of their position. An anti-death-
penalty advocate might have a long list of logically sound reasons for their
belief (e.g. cost of error, ultimate in government overreach, etc), but they
might become emotional because some aspect of state-sponsored executions
touches their heart as well. Please do not fall into the fallacy that just
because the person you're debating gets emotional that they are necessarily
wrong, or that you are necessarily right.

Further, people use logical fallacies all the time. It's very hard to avoid
them, unless one has practiced quite thoroughly.

Another common explanation for all of these phenomena is that you're being
perceived as a jerk. For instance, if you're the sort of person who says 'I
map all of people's beliefs to a single arbitrary dimension and if their
beliefs aren't near mine, then they are almost certainly idiots who haven't
thought things through and can't accept new evidence', then I'm pretty sure
I'm done with you.

~~~
Xcelerate
Haha, fair enough.

------
A_COMPUTER
On a metaphysical level I think Grant Morrison touched on conventional
counterculture in The Invisibles. Counterculture is just another, essential
part of The System expressing itself. Things happen because of The system
you're inside The System, and your "individualism" is an emergent property of
it. The example I think he used was the police. Was there ever a year when
nobody decided to become a police officer? If society was made up of free
people making free choices, there would always be catastrophic upsets like
this, but it doesn't ever happen. So to that extent, I think the article is
incorrect because while you may feel more "authentically counterculture" the
further away you are from "conventional counterculture", you're still just a
slightly rarer perturbation in the tank.

Your counterculture is only useful if it combats or shields you from a
dominant paradigm that is offensive to your values, and if you're alone in the
suburbs being hardcore, you're probably losing. Unless your real goal is to
feel cool, I guess, then by its own standards yes you are more counterculture
than "counterculture". Establishment countercultures may be hypocrites because
they don't recognize they're establishment, but they may also be creating
systems that ultimately comfort the people in them. But it's probably not
sustainable because your primary definition for a culture cannot be one of
contrast to something else. America is a nation that has was born in and has
internalized rebellion. This is probably the worst value we have, because you
can't actually build on that for very long, it's "meant" for the tearing down
phase of a bloated bureaucracy. As a nation gets settled if it doesn't abandon
that value it will start turning inward and attacking itself, which I think is
exactly what is happening.

Did I read too much into this essay?

------
whybroke
>In South Florida it is edgy to be against war. In San Francisco it is
socially enforced to the point of banal conformity.

You can be against a war because that war is wrong or against a war because
it's a fun novelty to be so. I would hope for the former because heaven help
the people under the bombs when the hipness of opposing it wears off.

------
bgilroy26
There was a professor at school who considered monks, nuns, the Amish, DIY
punks, etc to be countercultural.

The hipsters of the forties+50s,the beats, the hippies, etc he saw as seekers
of higher, truer things to consume, and he didn't see that as significantly
different from trying to consume the appliances/cars etc that the Joneses
have.

~~~
sanoli
the former are true countercultures. The latter are just subcultures. Often
people use the two terms as if they were the same.

------
mendelk
> If there is anything the nonconformist hates worse than a conformist, it's
> another nonconformist who doesn't conform to the prevailing standard of
> nonconformity.

\- Bill Vaughan [0]

[0]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_E._Vaughan#Quotations](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_E._Vaughan#Quotations)

------
eli_gottlieb
You know, I grew up alienated in an awful suburb, so I think I feel qualified
to say: _that was fucking dumb._

Counterculture is indeed about rebelling against something, and it indeed dies
on the vine when corporatized, mainstream culture has already absorbed it and
there's no more cheap-and-easy rebellion to be had. But hey: suburbs are
fucking alienating for everyone. If your only moral or political principle on
which to take a stand is, "I feel alienated in suburbia", you're about as Homo
Sapiens as it gets.

The real lesson is not, "counterculture should be preserved by having smart,
rebellious, artistic kids grow up in the suburbs." The real lesson is, "This
is why the overwhelming majority of people don't choose to live in suburbs
when there's any kind of alternative available, but instead in either real
cities or real countryside."

Also, for a bonus lesson: you can't spend your life rebelling against the
suburbs, or in fact against anything whatsoever. At some point, you will
either become just another hipster, or your "rebellion" has to be _for_
something.

~~~
k__
You could also simply live the way you want, even if other people see it as
some kind of rebellion, without it being for anything.

~~~
hebdo
Yes. I don't really get it: why the burning need for fulfilling the definition
of rebellion? Does it give you some sort of safety? Want to be both unique and
socially accepted? This is an immediate contradiction, you know, as wide
acceptance comes at a price of fitting oneself within one or more
(couter)culture categories. Instead just do whatever you want man.

~~~
Retra
It's because you will probably interact with people, and having a socially
aware human brain will cause you to recognize surprise and judgement in
others, and you'll have to find a way to emotionally deal with the resulting
rejection and exclusion.

Most people do this by saying "It's ok: I'm doing it on purpose. I didn't want
to be accepted anyway."

And that's what rebellion is.

------
andor
I noticed that a lot at hacker conventions (CCC). You might think that the
guys in simple black t-shirts are tolerant about clothes and don't judge
people by their appearance.

~~~
tomjen3
I have always wanted to attend a hackaton wearing a 3 piece suit and shoes so
shiny that I could mirror myself in them, just to see if they really wouldn't
judge me for it.

Of course I know the answer.

~~~
GFK_of_xmaspast
I've seen kids do this at hackthons. Good luck staying as natty by the end
tho.

------
formulaT
The problem with counterculture is that it encourages people to uncritically
accept that mainstream culture is horrible (e.g. boring, White, materialist,
racist/sexist/homophobic) and must be rejected.

While everyone feels this way on some issues, counterculture encourages people
to turn a dissatisfaction with some aspects of mainstream culture into a total
rejection of it. And it does so not by rational argument, but by exploiting
people's desire to feel special and enlightened.

~~~
mercer
In my opinion aligning yourself too much with a particular 'counterculture'
should be the domain of teenagers and those in their early-twenties. And
that's fine: we're social creatures and we often need some help breaking out
of the paradigms we grew up with.

But at some point one should learn to forge their own path, separate from any
package of beliefs that comes with any 'culture'.

------
DannoHung
If ever there was a condemnation of the concept of a "counterculture" this is
it.

------
matt_morgan
I sort of agree here, but I think teen alienation is another factor. You don't
feel like you fit in wherever you are, at times in your life. She was in SF
after that period.

------
hyperliner
"In South Florida it is edgy to be against war. In San Francisco it is
socially enforced to the point of banal conformity."

Banal conformity: that was a great summary of the article.

~~~
bonestamp2
Banal conformity is not necessarily a bad thing. Boring perhaps, but _that_
conformity is often why people move to cities like San Francisco, to be with
like minded thinkers.

I grew up in the suburbs and went to college in a small conservative city.
But, my family visited California when I was a child and I always liked it,
although I'm not sure I could put my finger on "why" as a child. So, when I
had the opportunity to do a college exchange program in California I jumped on
it.

The first thing I noticed was that people felt comfortable being different. As
someone who always felt like I didn't belong, I immediately felt comfortable.

It took me about 10 years after college to make my way to California, but I
finally feel at home. I don't enjoy the excitement of being different, I like
the comfort of similarity.

~~~
hyperliner
It's interesting how some of us like the same while some others like
different. I like SF because I am the most boring person you can imagine
(opposite you, who I imagine edgier. I have no tattoos and my hair is natural
color, stereotypically boring). But I like that I can go there and see people
who are so different than me and different among themselves.

~~~
eli_gottlieb
Excuse me, but the Straight Edge subculture is a thing. There are lots of
people with very strange or unusual ideas who don't have tattoos and don't dye
their hair.

------
dmgbrn
I think Freaks and Geeks made this argument pretty conclusively. It'd be
interesting to see what happened to Lindsey after she joined the Dead Tour.

