
Should I tell the founder his top employees are lazy and liars? - throwawayagency
Hi, everyone. I know the title is blunt and the post is a little long. Please bear with me.<p><i></i><p>1. I&#x27;m an employee at a small agency (&lt;10 of us).<p>2. I&#x27;ve been here almost a year. I&#x27;ve already seen a couple of raises and a promotion. I&#x27;m killing it and I sense my job is secure despite what I reveal to my employer. But who knows?<p>3. I discovered the most senior employee was charging a client for work that was never performed.<p>4. I let it go. I discovered this 6 months into the job and just wanted to play it safe. Nobody likes a snitch.<p>5. We ended up losing the client. I felt guilty for not speaking.<p>6. At almost a year in now, I&#x27;ve found that last month alone this individual is billing four clients for work that was also not performed. It makes me sick when I&#x27;m around this person.<p>7. I&#x27;ve recently discovered that the next most-senior employee is also charging three of their clients for work that is also not being completed.<p>8. In a recent private meeting with the founder, I informed him that I think people aren&#x27;t doing their work. He said that was &quot;distressing,&quot; sighed, and we continued discussing some other matters. He also said he&#x27;d like any other concerns brought to his attention whenever I felt I needed to raise them, his &quot;door was always open,&quot; etc. I know he could sense I was wary about telling him anything too specific. I&#x27;m glad that he didn&#x27;t push the matter at that time. This was about 3 weeks ago.<p>I have another meeting with the founder later this week. What should I say?
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traskjd
Frankly, I'd be surprised if the founder in such a small business wasn't aware
this was already going on. If he didn't then he's incompetent, if he does then
he's as dodgy as the employees you reference.

Integrity is one of the most valuable traits you can look for in people.
Rather than worrying about the company so much, I'd be more concerned with
yourself and how it reflects upon you being associated with this type of
behaviour.

Just my 2 cents. Good luck!

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throwawayagency
Thank you for your well wishes.

While not incompetent, I do believe he's neglected his responsibility to
properly evaluate the performance of his employees more closely.

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evan_
Tell the founder everything you know. Be honest and truthful, don't
editorialize.

Unless major changes happen quickly, you need to quit. Your salary is being
paid with stolen money, and you cannot accept that.

~~~
throwawayagency
Thank you for your response. (Though amusingly enough I am satisfying clients
enough to bring in over 3x my salary. Makes me wonder if I should just
freelance, haha...)

~~~
JoeAltmaier
Yes! Freelancing is scary; but not as scary as being part of a legal
proceeding, implicated in their crime.

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duncan_bayne
3 - 5 ... sounds like you've worked out for yourself one reason that keeping
quiet was wrong.

What I'd do:

\- Give up any idea of continuing to work for that agency; you might come out
of it smelling like roses, but you might get fired as well. Accept that acting
ethically might cost you your job, and act on that assumption. Also, remember
that being fired for acting ethically is, in the long run, an act of mercy:
you don't want to be associated with crooks.

\- Put your complaint in writing, with details. Names, dates, amounts,
clients, anything & everything you can remember. Give it to the founder, and
explain that you'd like something done about it.

\- Repeat the previous step a few times. If nothing happens, tender your
resignation. Again: do you want to work for crooks?

\- If resignation is necessary (or, if you're fired), then go to the clients
and present them with the very same written complaint you presented to the
founder. Be aware that being sued by the agency is a very real possibility
should that happen.

~~~
throwawayagency
Thank you very much for your response. I appreciate it.

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jf22
In writing could bite you in the ass later.

I wouldn't put those type of accusations in writing.

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duncan_bayne
In writing will provide a paper trail that may later prove very handy.

E.g. "oh yeah, that guy: I fired him for poor performance." How would you
prove otherwise without a paper trail?

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bjourne
Either that or you're young, naive and a bad judge of character. The founder,
whom you obviously look up to, is likely much older and more experienced than
you. Of course he knows what is going on in his own company. The other guys
didn't become senior employees by accident. Thinking otherwise is frankly
stupid. Leave asap.

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Chetane
Assuming the founder is unaware of the situation (if he is, I would advice you
to find another company), then he probably cares more that anyone else about
the business succeeding. From that perspective, he will be very attentive to
what you have to say, and thankful for you bringing it up.

Now there are a few different ways to break the ice. I would start with
something positive as most people don't like starting a discussion with
conflicts. Maybe tell him about how you're excited about your work, because
seeing clients happy and satisfied gives a sense of purpose and achievement,
while strengthening the company brand. At the same time, you've noticed (and
it pains you) that other projects are not being delivered, and causing clients
to be lost, and the company looking bad. Share some evidence (a.k.a facts)
that brought you to this conclusion, and if possible a way for his to double
check. From there I'd play it by ear depending how the conversation is going.
One thing to keep in mind however, is to see whether he knows already or
not... if he does approve of such practices, then it's probably not a place
you want to work at. Good luck :)

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throwawayagency
Indeed, the fact that the founder can be so unaware is disturbing in itself
and does encourage me at many moments to find another company.

I will certainly bring evidence. The type of work not completed can still be
audited by the founder. This indeed will be crucial in his realization of the
issue.

Thank you very much.

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codeonfire
The founder is clearly in on the overbilling. Your perception and judge of
character is going to be biased and flawed. Bad people look and act just like
normal people, probably even more so. I wouldn't say anything, just try to
find a new job at a more ethical firm. you've got five new clients already
lined up.

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jfoster
Taking the clients of your former employer would be unethical as well. Yes,
they haven't done the right thing by their clients, but doubling the ethics
deficit doesn't make everything right.

~~~
codeonfire
The two aren't in the same ballpark. Overbilling clients is stealing.
Persuading clients to use your firm instead of someone else's is good
business. There's agreements to protect trade secrets but those can't last for
all eternity.

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janeglendale
You didn't mention much about the founder. Is he someone with a different
background that just doesn't understand what's happening? Is he too busy with
other things to see this? Does he actually think everything is going well, or
does he just not know how to fix it? Or maybe he knows it's happening, but
also knows money is tight?

~~~
throwawayagency
Thank you for the questions! These are great. Unfortunately due to the,
understandable, character limit of a post I cut out a handful of text which
addressed a couple of these.

The founder is fortunately technically versed enough that he should be capable
of an audit of the work conducted by his employees. However, I think he's
clueless to what's going on at the moment. He's an awesome guy and his heart
is in the right place, but he's much more sales-oriented and concerned with
bringing in business than he is with auditing the performance of his
employees. Unfortunately. I believe he is indeed too busy with with other
things to see this and I think he thinks everything is going well in terms of
operations (despite my vague alert). That said, business was booming several
months ago and he was not concerned at all about money then. These past couple
months have been poor though.

~~~
ProblemFactory
It's difficult to predict what the outcome of the situation will be.

It could be that the founder keeps himself officially "unaware" on purpose.
This way he can shift the blame to others if it becomes public, and still make
a profit from defrauding clients.

If he is truly unaware, you will still be up against two senior employees who
will deny the accusations - and you may end up looking like the "crazy
disruptive new guy".

I would suggest gathering as much documentation as you can on the excessive
billing. Then approaching him without _directly_ accusing the senior
employees, and pitching it as a way to improve the business. "I have figured
out why the clients left, we made mistakes on their bills!" instead of "Your
senior people are defrauding clients".

If the founder seems to be unconcerned about the "mistakes", start looking for
a new job.

~~~
throwawayagency
Interesting way of posing the situation to the founder. Thanks for this.

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jfoster
It sounds to me as though the founder might know more about it than you think
he does. I can't be sure, of course, but in his position wouldn't you react
just a bit differently? He could have asked you for more details whilst being
sensitive to the fact that you mightn't want to provide them yet.

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lifeisstillgood
How exactly are you charging clients for work not done? Do they pay? How do
you know they pay? How do you know they Re not getting rebates and apologies ?
Over-billing hours is a serious crime but hardly unheard of. Claiming to have
done deliverables is just foolish. Which is happening?

~~~
throwawayagency
Thank you for your questions.

All of the over-billing is coming from supposed ongoing work (and of course
not a retainer situation). It doesn't happen in any initial phase where it
would be difficult to fake something.

The agency is small enough that we all have access to each other's client
hours, invoice information, etc. and we often correspond directly with clients
regarding their invoices, etc.

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segmondy
well, you should tell him, but don't just tell him for the sake of telling
him.

tell him from a business perspective so he can really understand. explain, how
fixing this will save/make more money if not immediately in the future.

~~~
throwawayagency
Thank you for this insight. Bringing up the problem as it relates to business
goals is important.

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viennacoder
Tell the founder. If the culprits aren't immediately fired, then quit.

If you stay it will damage your reputation.

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kunil
If he does not know already he is probably lazy or liar too.

~~~
throwawayagency
I certainly don't think of him as lazy, but I think he's been too busy to
realize what is going on, unfortunately. "Unaware" may be a better word, even
though he should have been aware to begin with.

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davidsmith8900
\- I say that you should SUBLIMINALLY GIVE THE FOUNDER HINTS. DONT NAMEDROP.
JUST GIVE HINTS and then mind your business.

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yowza
No, because I might be that employee.

