

TSA agents forced crying 4-year-old to undergo pat-down after hug - rickdale
http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/grandma-tsa-agents-forced-crying-4-year-old-to-undergo-tsa-pat-down-at-kan-airport-after-hug/2012/04/25/gIQAojLohT_story.html

======
bo1024
Honestly I find the victim's quotes and attitudes toward this incident very
disturbing. For example:

> claiming TSA treated her daughter “no better than if she had been a
> terrorist.”

> “There was no common sense and there was no compassion,” Croft said. “That
> was our biggest fault with the whole thing — not that they are following
> security procedures, because I understand that they have to do that.”

So basically, it's fine to treat _terrorists_ this way, just not me and my
family, because we aren't terrorists (but that Muslim family over there might
be). Similarly, I don't mind following security procedures, because those are
all for the good, I just don't think they should apply to people like us.

How can they fail to see that this is _how the system works_? This is what it
is designed to do. There was no mistake made here. This is what you voted for.

No. The problem is not in how we apply these invasive, wasteful, and
humiliating security procedures. The security procedures _are_ the problem.
The problem is not in who in particular is labeled a suspected terrorist. It's
how we treat _people_.

I think the company I keep makes me think that everyone must share my
perspective that the TSA is a huge waste of money and time -- makes me forget
that a lot of Americans actually believe these things are making them safer
and working as intended, and that incidents like this are just small accidents
when the security apparatus gets turned on the wrong people. It's a sobering
realization.

~~~
dromidas
This is a situation that has many different points...

A) Yes the grandmother's attitude was biased with those quotes and further
highlights why America is in this situation in the first place. Americans and
terrorists are both made up of people who believe stupid crap and treat others
based on those beliefs. This is not a situation we can fix.

B) Yes the TSA Agents actually acted like they should have. If I was trying to
smuggle something in I would certainly have a kid along to go through security
first and then trained such that were my smuggling attempt to fail to attempt
some sort of backup plan by running up to me distressed to grab the item from
me. So their reaction was entirely smart to re-screen her. This is also not a
situation that could be fixed.

C) This whole incident further proves that their process is just not going to
work like they want it to. On paper its great, but in reality its just not
going to fly. When their detection capabilities are reliant upon either
shooting X rays or molestation you're going to end up pissing off enough
people to get your company voted off the corporate island. This is a situation
that we can fix, get rid of a lot of the security theatre and point B and C
goes away.

------
read_wharf
The worst thing we've learned is that all we have to say is "we followed
standard procedures" and we get a free pass, regardless of how egregious
standard procedures or implementations may be.

~~~
asmithmd1
I think the TSA clerks here can legitimately be charged with child molestation
- follow my logic:

When I have been patted down by TSA they are always careful to ask for my
consent before they sexual assault me. Since I am past the age of consent I
can give it to them. Here the TSA is relying on the parents to provide the
consent to sexually assault their child. I don't think a parent can legally
give that consent. If I were a DA I would charge both the TSA agent and the
parent with criminal child abuse.

~~~
viro101
Under your logic teens can't be arrested.(you get patted down(aka molested) in
the process)

------
plink
"She said TSA agents had shouted at the girl, telling her to calm down and
saying the suspect wasn’t cooperating."

What suspect? Suspected of what? This kind of pervasive cop-speak strips
language of relevant meaning.

~~~
lurker14
Oh, cop-speak preserve deep meaning. It clearly communicates the mindset of
the speaker, which is an important part of language. When considered in
context (not spoken by a cop), it telegraphs the mental illness of the
speaker.

------
shabble
My suspicion is that, in the (presumed) absence of actual terrorists, the
screeners are tested using 'secret shopper' style undercover people. They
might try a wide range of scenarios, from 'oops, I forgot I left that gun in
my trouser pocket'[1] through to 'can little Molly sneak an extra-large
toothpaste?'

Anyone failing the test gets demoted/retrained/shouted at, until all
compassion and common sense is burned out.

[1] From what I recall of the recent ex-TSA director, they fail even the most
egregious of suitcase weapon plants, including firearms.

Edit: It doesn't appear to get much of a mention in Kip Hawley's Editorial in
the WSJ[2], but [http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/loaded-gun-slips-past-tsa-
scre...](http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/loaded-gun-slips-past-tsa-
screeners/story?id=12412458) mentions figures of easily 50+%, from 2010

[2]
[http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142405270230381540457733...](http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702303815404577335783535660546.html)

~~~
ajross
I have a hard time believing that they'd be doing testing in live airports
with real (or real-looking) firearms. It's just not nearly controlled enough
to be safe. Imagine a wackjob grabbing the improvised knife they always carry
in their bag and trying to be a hero.

~~~
shabble
I edited my original post to include a link to some 2010 stats, and just found
[http://www.nbcdfw.com/news/local/TSA-Agent-Slips-Through-
DFW...](http://www.nbcdfw.com/news/local/TSA-Agent-Slips-Through-DFW-Body-
Scanner-With-a-Gun-116497568.html) from sept '11 as well.

I'm not sure how they could run realistic tests in any other way than with
(simulated) contraband in a public screening queue, ideally with different
people and situations each time.

~~~
lurker14
They insert simulated images of contraband in the scanner monitors.

------
gry
I flew for the first time last weekend since the TSA implemented the pat-
downs.

I went through the backscatter while the TSA scanned my bags, one being a
stylus with a substantial aluminum shaft. I was paranoid it would be deemed a
weapon. During the screening, I witnessed a pregnant woman go through an
examination.

I do not feel safer. In fact, my fear has shifted.

------
viro101
So We shouldn't have pat-downs for kids? this article reminds me of the saying
"Security is only as good as your lowest hanging fruit".

~~~
wpietri
Your desire to touch my low-hanging fruit is the problem here.

~~~
viro101
If certain people are exempt from pat-downs then pat-downs are useless.

~~~
gwright
This presupposes that there is no mechanism for assessing the relative threat
of a passenger. Basically every passenger is an equal threat and so everyone
needs to be processed identically.

Of course that is a non-sensical assumption but 'profiling' is considered a
worse evil and so the TSA terrifies little children in order to avoid the
evils of profiling.

~~~
sanderjd
> Of course that is a non-sensical assumption

Maybe it is, maybe it isn't, but there is no "of course" about it! While I
think the moral indignation about profiling is justified, the real fear is
that a system that relies heavily on profiling is very weak to attack by
learning the profile and planning accordingly.

------
Zephyr314
It looks like the trick is just to buy your way through:
[http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-tsa-
screeners-201204...](http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-tsa-
screeners-20120426,0,4508192.story)

------
rogerbinns
(My opinion is that the whole system is stupid, pointless and performs some
theatre at the windows while the doors are wide open. Someone determined will
be able to get through, or just attack somewhere else. All you want to do is
catch the idiots, which pre-911 screening did just fine. The response to
terrorism is to not be terrorized and to live well, not to amplify the little
things they actually do.)

We should be very careful about "common sense" and screeners making their own
minds up about things. It is far better that they follow a consistent set of
rules. This for example is why the liquids rule is a good one from a screening
point of view. There is no discretion left to the screeners and they don't
have to entertain arguments about which liquids are harmless and which aren't,
types of liquids, size of containers etc. Think carefully - do you really want
each screener enforcing their own views? How trivial do you think they would
be to outsmart by someone determined?

The American political system especially as espoused in the media where
trivial things are inflated to make stories, there is relentless hounding of
politicians who are rational, it is cheaper to have controversial talking
heads instead of research and reporting, someone always has to be to blame,
and issues are presented as black or white soundbites means that no politician
can reasonably try to rein in the system or have detailed discussions on
risks, spending, tradeoffs etc.

------
homosaur
This is what happens when you give minimum wage idiots that would normally be
working at McDonalds fake badges and power. I know for a fact there are a few
good, knowledgeable, professional TSA people at every airport, but the
majority of them around the country are not. The majority of them are
completely incompetent, completely unqualified, and glad they get to tell
someone what do for 8 hours.

------
huhtenberg
First candidate to promise to dismantle TSA will sweep the presidential
election.

------
pyoung
Just out of curiosity, can someone explain to me why TSA articles tend to make
their way to the front page of HN. I know there are some pretty random topics
that HN'ers are interested in, but usually there is at least some small link
to tech/startups/hacking. Not sure what the connection is here.

~~~
drucken
Security.

------
dmfdmf
Where do you get 50,000 TSA agents to do this sort of thing? That is the
question that has to be asked by all Americans;
[http://www.caseyresearch.com/articles/ascendence-
sociopaths-...](http://www.caseyresearch.com/articles/ascendence-sociopaths-
us-governance)

------
junto
They should be charged with harassment and physical assault of a child.

------
Mz
On the one hand, the TSA agents could have been more sensitive. On the other
hand, the parents could probably have prevented the whole thing by not letting
the girl run off to hug grandma.

My dad was career miltary and so was my ex. I spent much of my life around
environments where security was taken seriously. You just don't let kids goof
off in such environments. Somewhat similarly, I also grew up with shotguns
hung on the wall above my parents' bed. They were not loaded but there were
two shells laying in the groove on the barrel so they could be loaded quickly
if necessary. The rest of the ammo was locked up in dad's closet and kids did
not go in dad's closet. Guns were not something children played with and there
were no accidents because the adults in the house just did not allow it to
happen.

------
georgieporgie
_Isabella had just learned about “stranger danger” at school_

What? Does she use a time traveling bus to visit 1990? I thought schools had
wised up to the fact that virtually all harm to children (excluding traffic
fatalities) is brought people the child knows.

I hate the TSA, but I see the dark humor of fear mongering on both sides of
this story: Americans' fear of terrorists and children's instilled fear of
strangers. As a traveler, I'm tired of the former, and as an adult male who
happens to like children and strikes up conversations with strangers, I'm
tired of the latter.

~~~
nikatwork
Attempted child abductions happen all the time (source: constant police
reports in my local media). It's insane to suggest we don't teach kids street
smarts just because you like talking to strangers.

~~~
georgieporgie
_It's insane to suggest we don't teach kids street smarts_

I never said anything of the sort.

