
Being Suicidal: What it feels like to want to kill yourself - roflc0ptic
http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/bering-in-mind/2010/10/20/being-suicidal-what-it-feels-like-to-want-to-kill-yourself/
======
darius42
Speaking as someone who has been suicidal, I think that that article is a lot
of hot air.

This is what it felt like to be suicidal: Imagine the worst heartbreak you
have ever felt, and multiply this by ten. Imagine the worst anxiety you have
ever suffered and multiply this by ten. Imagine that every second feels like a
minute, in each of those minute-long-seconds, you feel like a lion is just
about to jump out from around the corner and rip you apart slowly. Imagine
that everything you used to enjoy is meaningless and nothing at all is fun or
enjoyable. Imagine that both your parents just died in a horrible car crash
right after disinheriting you because they felt you were a terrible disgrace.
Imagine that you constantly obsess on what it was you did so wrong, and what
you might have done differently. Imagine repeatedly reliving every word you
can remember saying to them with a terrible and critical eye, and repeating to
yourself every harsh word they ever said to you. Imagine that you can't think
of anything else at all no matter how hard you try, and these obsessive
thoughts just spin in your head over and over and over and over and over and
over again with no relief. Imagine that all these feelings just go on and on
and on and on and on and on, for hours, days, weeks, months, with no relief.
Unrelenting torment and misery with no escape, no out, no one who can
understand you, no one who can calm you, no one who can make anything the
slightest bit better.

Imagine that the only reason that you didn't kill yourself in order to end
this interminable torment is because you figured you'd fuck even that up and
just end up a quadriplegic, and then be truly screwed, since you'd never be
able to end your eternal misery then.

~~~
hkmurakami
>Speaking as someone who __has been__ suicidal

I've battled depression in the past, but I don't think I ever quite reached a
suicidal state. The way I got out of my depression state, was to finally admit
that I can't keep suffering in my current life situation anymore, and to get
away from the things that were causing my anguish, anxiety, stress, and
despair. I spent the next two months doing utterly nothing (well at least,
nothing productive), slowly becoming healthy again.

You definitely had it much worse than me, and so I want to ask sincerely, what
if anything, got you out of your depression/suicidal state of mind? Or
alternately, what has helped you manage these urges and emotions?

~~~
drostie
I am not the person you replied to, just another sufferer.

So, for me, depression feels very similar to what both darius and the original
article were saying. It's like an erupting storm. It starts with something
small -- some tiny failure which a normal person might say "okay, no biggie, I
can deal with that." My problem was the multiplication. We have associative
memories, and I as a depressed person immediately associated this failure with
other recent failures, which associated with others, and others, until there
was a deluge of connections. It feels like a literal suffocation by failure --
I mean it becomes hard to breathe and there is often an ache across my chest.

There was often a growing sense of paranoia -- that _they would all find out_.
What they would all find out was not terribly clear, but it was something as
simple as "I am useless" or "I'll never live up to any of their expectations."
(If you've never suffered from depression you might even wonder _why this is a
bad thing_ \-- but that sort of metanarrative doesn't happen when you're
depressed because it's just _obviously_ bad, it's rejection, and rejection is
_painful_ emotionally, and there is no reflection.)

And so each thing triggers other things, until I am just left with this deep
feeling that I have failed as a human, like everyone else has this thing going
for them and I simply do not, and my only normalcy comes from the lucky fact
that most of them are not paying any attention to me, which is also sad in its
own way.

I live a much less stressful life now, and that helps. I try not to commit
myself to any futures -- I tell people that I don't make _plans_ per se but
only _resolves_ , so that I am sure of the direction that I'm sailing, but not
what I will find. That helps with avoiding that seed of failure from which the
storm starts.

As for the storm itself, I've found that deep breathing does more good than
you'd expect, because if you're focused on your breathing then you're not
associating those thoughts so much; the thoughts still swim around your head
but they don't breed new ones so much, and you can kind of quietly nod at them
without indulging them. This gives me a better sense of the objects around me,
which actually seem to totally disappear as I disappear into myself.

But sometimes, I will confess, I feel duty-bound to be honest to my younger
self. And so sometimes when those seeds start, even these days when I can
cope, I do just let them expand and expand until I cry myself to sleep. I feel
oddly at home there, as if this is some permanent part of myself which I'm
oddly glad I haven't lost. But because this is now a choice, and it's
voluntary, I no longer feel suicidal during these periods -- just awful.

~~~
benched
Wow, these descriptions reflect my own experience exactly. The small failures
that snowballed and became patterns.

I had been working at a large software company for several years. I was in
kind of an oddball group, doing miscellaneous web development. For the most
part, it was fun. The team became like a family for a time.

The constant re-orgs were stressful, though. That was like having to re-
interview for my own job every ten months or so. I have done 3D graphics
programming on my own time for about 20 years, and I always told myself that
one day I would find a way to do that for a living. Setting up a very high
expectation - kind of like wanting to be the lead guitarist in a band.

I tried to interview for any graphics job I could find, during my four years
at the company. I never got an offer. Eventually, there were so many re-orgs,
that most of my friend-co-workers had moved on to other teams. I decided to
quit and work on a game, doing what I love. Technically, that went amazingly
well. But from a design standpoint, it never quite gelled.

Then my relationship failed at the worst possible time. Then I exhausted my
runway. I interviewed with goog and failed (more high expectations). I
interviewed with a startup for a graphics position and it seemed to go very
well!! But then baggage from that failed relationship, and doubt, stopped me
from relocating during a critical window.

Then came crippling anxiety and horrible depression. My life seemed to go from
amazing to over in only a few months. Friends grew distant and didn't know
what to do for me. I couldn't face anybody. I stopped taking any calls. It
felt like life was trying to tell me "Go home. You lost the privilege of
playing with the grown-ups."

Sad to say, I am still "down in it". I had to move "back home," which is an
isolated place. I haven't written much code in months. Despite having been a
programmer for 20 years, I fear I won't be able to pass anymore technical
interviews. Rationally, I know I am a very good and accomplished developer,
and I know that everyone who has worked with me would say the same; but I'm
extremely anxious about approaching the job search and the interviews anymore.
One day I will find the motivation and the nerve to start over again.

~~~
lmkg
The most important thing I learned about depression is that it snowballs in
both directions. Big tasks and big goals loom even bigger in your head,
especially when you spend all your time in your head, dwelling. Don't worry
about those sorts of things right now. As long as the whole 'starting over'
thing is a shadow in your head, it will stop you from taking the first step.

Focus on something small and achievable, and achieve it. Even if it's just
goddamn FizzBuzz. Reverse a linked list, and messsage one old friend on
facebook to have lunch. That's it. Just do something small. It cuts off the
downward spiral, and establishes momentum in the right direction.

------
roflc0ptic
"So there you have it. It’s really not a pretty picture. But, again, I do hope
that if you ever are unfortunate enough to experience these cognitive dynamics
in your own mind—and I, for one, very much have—or if you suspect you’re
seeing behaviors in others that indicate these thought patterns may be
occurring, that this information helps you to meta-cognitively puncture
suicidal ideation."

I tend to think there's not a lot of value in talking publicly about suicide
due to the Werther effect (<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copycat_suicide>),
and I know that for my own part reading about suicide tends to reinvigorate
some pretty unfortunate cognitive patterns. But since we're already on the
subject, I share this article. Bering articulates very well the experience of
wanting to do yourself in. For folks who don't experience it, this might help
you understand. For folks who do, maybe understanding it better will help you
get past it. Don't let your depression win.

~~~
lilsunnybee
It wouldn't be that way for most people. Most people are just trying to
understand and find a way to help, and don't get triggered easily by stuff
like this.

Even if you've had suicide attempts and ongoing depression, it is something
you can get past. It all depends on where you are in your life.

If its triggering for you, avoid it for your own mental health. But others
still might want to discuss, analyze and come to terms.

~~~
roflc0ptic
Thanks. I'm the one who posted it, and I was hoping it would help others to
come to terms. I'm in a much better place than I once was. I'm not sure at all
that this thread was the right thing to do.

------
baddox
> _In considering people’s motivations for killing themselves, it is essential
> to recognize that most suicides are driven by a flash flood of strong
> emotions, not rational, philosophical thoughts in which the pros and cons
> are evaluated critically._

That sounds very likely to me, but given my utter inexperience with suicidal
thoughts or acquaintances, I'm wondering if there is any proper evidence
corroborating it. What percentage of suicides _are_ evaluated critically?
Obviously, "evaluated critically" is difficult to define, let alone measure,
but I'd like to see any studies done in this area.

~~~
alanctgardner2
There are a few pieces of evidence that suggest long-term depression can
impact neurogenesis, which could lead to altered cognition. I don't know if
that's a prevalent theory, and as the author points out, it doesn't explain
non-depressive suicides.

I can, however, answer this anecdote with another anecdote. I've been dealing
with suicidal thoughts for about 5 years, and at some points some very limited
self-harm. On an earlier post, I detailed what I thought was my most
frightening, closest-to-suicide moment.

> The scariest, closest to suicide moment I ever experienced was when I was
> shopping at a mall. It wasn't very busy, and I was feeling very... manic
> might be the word. Head down, headphones in, speed walking between errands.
> I had to keep moving, no matter what. I noticed the sort-of cut-away in the
> floor, so you could see from the top floor down to the ground. It was only 3
> stories, but I had a really strong, sudden impulse to vault over the railing
> and see what it would do to me. Maybe I could land on my head, that might
> work. It was something I had never really considered before, it wasn't a
> very efficient way to do things, but it just gripped me very suddenly and
> all of a sudden it was a huge crisis. Being suicidal, generally, is death by
> a thousand cuts. You have a predisposition, and all the stresses in life
> push you in that direction (as you've said). But the jumping off the ledge
> moment is crucial; personally, I have strategies for daily temptations like
> putting away knives in the kitchen. It's the spur of something unexpected,
> the sudden, strong, irrational impulse that really scares me.

~~~
ghc
Aren't impulses like that relatively common? I can recall hundreds of times
where I felt a sudden impulse like that since about the age of 10, all
triggered by finding myself in a situation where something not normally
dangerous presented a very real possibility of death. I always figured my
brain was using that impulse to viscerally play out the consequences in my
head so as to scare the living daylights out of me (e.g. when first getting
used to traveling by subway having a sudden strong impulse to jump into the
subway tracks, making me keep well away from the edge of the platform).

I always thought the difference between a suicidal person and a normal person
was that a normal person would have those thoughts, but they would inspire
great fear, where as a suicidal person would experience those thoughts and not
experience the corresponding revulsion.

~~~
nostrademons
Yeah, they're really common; I remember discussing them in Intro Philosophy
course in college. Most people have had a moment where they're in a situation
that could lead to death and wonder "What if I..."

Thinking back to when I was 13 and suicidal, the big difference is that now,
when I'm mentally healthy, it's a "What if I...?" thought, while back then it
was an "I should..." thought. I remember looking out my front door at the
traffic going by in the street and thinking "If I just run outside and into
the road in front of a car, it'll all be over." And it was like I got tunnel
vision, like that impulse was all the universe consisted of. It's like the
article said, about thoughts tending toward concreteness.

I wonder, too, about how this relates to a another comment here about it being
crucial to increase the physical time necessary to commit suicide. Our
driveway was a good 160 feet long; I wonder if a major factor was that it'd
take a good 15 seconds to run the length of it, and on some level I realized
I'd chicken out before I got to the street. (I didn't get much farther than
opening the door before thinking "What the hell am I doing?")

------
orionblastar
I have attempted suicide 13 times, and decided I would not go for a 14th time.

This article is not accurate. When you are suicidal it is very hard to
explain. You are miserable and in a lot of pain, you have negative racing
thoughts about how terrible you are and what a horrible person you are etc and
that the world would be better off without you, and you never really fit in,
people just took advantage of you and abused and bullied you so you don't feel
like you are connected to this world anymore, that the only way to end your
suffering is to kill yourself. Logic, reason, and anything else no longer
works for you, you can't think straight anymore and any thought just hurts you
like a hot knife slicing into your brain. Every bad moment in your life plays
out in your head, and each one just kills you inside a bit. You cannot even
remember the good moments, you cannot recall that you have friends and family
members who love you. You feel like nobody cares about you and everyone hates
you and wants you to die.

I really don't know how I got out of it, except my attempts failed because I
didn't do massive things like gunshot to the head or whatever, I did things
that could be undone like overdose, etc. It was the only control I had at the
time to survive, pick my way to die, and pick one that others can undo when
they find me.

I got so sick working, that I developed schizoaffective disorder from the
stress, and workplace bullies who abused me daily. I was a top-notch
programmer, but now I am on disability trying to get my act together. Not
being surrounded by sociopaths is helping me to heal up.

~~~
DigitalTurk
Orion Blaster!

I don't want to reveal my K5 nick but I'm happy you're still around. :)

~~~
orionblastar
Thanks you must be one of the few K5 users who like me alive. Most told me to
"kill yourself" when I posted a diary. I think it started a K5 trend to post
"kill yourself" after a Blastar-like diary.

I am learning how to program all over again. I started with ANSI C and GCC and
worked up to C++ with G++ in Unbuntu. Just small programs I'll move on to
bigger stuff later.

Just hope I don't end up like MDC, I hear he's been 5150'ed again in
California.

~~~
smosher
Small world. I remember quitting K5 after it filled up with people I couldn't
call friends.

Take care.

~~~
orionblastar
Thanks friend, good to hear from you again.

I hope Mike Crawford gets out of jail, he did some 911 phone calls and bragged
about it on K5 and then crashed Hacker Dojo and other startup events. Here is
a musical mix of his 911 tape: <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X7RglDs2DkA> It
has the Crawford Cats in it as well.

Crawford sees himself as a hacktivist and has been suicidal in the past. Here
are some of the things that got him in trouble:

[http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2012/04/startup...](http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2012/04/startup_weekend_entrepreneuria.html)

[http://startupweekend.org/2012/04/30/not-even-bmob-
threats-c...](http://startupweekend.org/2012/04/30/not-even-bmob-threats-
could-deter-portlands-entrepreneurs-at-startup-weekend/)

[https://twitter.com/dhawalc/status/209088242094571520/photo/...](https://twitter.com/dhawalc/status/209088242094571520/photo/1)

[http://www.reddit.com/r/michaeldavidcrawford/comments/ur825/...](http://www.reddit.com/r/michaeldavidcrawford/comments/ur825/mike_crawford_on_his_hackerdojo_campaign_posted/)

~~~
smosher
I remember a lot of mental illness and suicidal folks. Many were people I had
good conversations with. A lot of the time it felt like family.

~~~
orionblastar
Yes but the trolls chased us/them all away from K5.

------
mcphilip
For those interested in philosophy, Albert Camus famously said "There is only
one really serious philosophical problem and that is suicide" [1]. Basically
Camus asked the question why shouldn't he commit suicide and then worked on
finding a philosophy that gave him reason not to.

This comment may have no practical use to someone feeling suicidal, but those
interested in a philosophical discussion of suicide should consider reading
some of Camus' work.

[1]<http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/camus>

~~~
pekk
If you are in a position to work for years on a philosophy to give you a
reason not to commit suicide, then probably you are not really in the kind of
position from which people normally commit suicide.

Existentialism is a hobby and a thing to talk about, not a tested therapy for
major clinical depression.

~~~
saraid216
GP didn't say otherwise.

------
hudell
I've tried to kill myself twice when I was a teenage. It was really silly. The
first time I was in my bed, trying to sleep, when I tought : "Why don't I kill
myself?" I don't remember what kind of problems I had at the time. I was 15
and that was the best year of my life up to that point (ages 10 to 14 really
sucked and I would understand if it had happened at that time). I didn't do
anything special, just covered my head with my pillow cover. After a few
seconds I realised that wouldn't work, dropped it and went on to sleep. I
don't remember when or how the second time happened, all I remember is that I
tried a second time that same year. Many times I caught myself thinking about
using gas to end it all, but I would not do anything that would cause trouble
to my family (even though I had no reason to like them at the time).

A few years later, I got really depressed after a party and, on my way home, I
stopped in a bridge, looking to the river and thinking. I knew I would never
have the courage to jump, but I stood there. Then, from the other side of the
bridge, came an old crazy friend, he was really drunk and hugged me real hard,
leaving me with the stench of cachaça (brazilian rum). He kept going and I
went home.

I never had any suicidal thought after that. On contrary, sometimes I feel
that I now am "immune" to that kind of thing. Even if I feel depressed, it all
goes away after a good night sleep. And I even became a person that is really
good at talking to people with suicidal thoughts. I'm 24 now and, in the last
five years, I've had a few friends come to me saying they were thinking about
killing themselves and I somehow made them feel better.

I think that the most important thing when talking to people about this is:
never say "don't to it". I usually say: "it's up to you, but.. have you
considered this and that?" If you just tell them no to do it, they will ignore
you, because they will think you don't understand their problems. And they are
probably right about that.

~~~
hudell
Just to be clear: neither I nor any of these friends I talked about had real
cases of depression, we would just feel depressed sometimes and it would
sometimes makes us think our life wasn't worth it or something like that.

------
jjb123
As someone that has had a sibling take her own life, and another that has had
suicidal thoughts frequently, this article was extremely helpful in seeing the
cognitive layers beyond the emotional layers. Pretty eye-opening. I wonder if
the cognitive destruction would prevent a person from even realizing they're
experiencing cognitive destruction (eg, after reading an article like this)?

~~~
saraid216
It doesn't necessarily; I think that varies wildly depending on the person.
I'm a highly analytical person, for instance, and I immediately recognized
each layer in myself. I'd be willing to bet, however, that there are plenty of
people who'd read each item and deny their existence while experiencing each
perfectly. I find myself unable to actually imagine this, but eh.

------
gesman
Article describes classes of thoughts that causes suicidal tendencies. Which
is good recreational read but practically useless. Then article self-derails
in disfunctional, impractical advises (for the lack of having anything
better), such as: "this information helps you to meta-cognitively puncture
suicidal ideation" or: "scientific knowledge changes perspective. And
perspective changes everything".

This works all great in theory but absolutely fails in real life with real
people.

It reality it's the deep and sharp inner pain that causes people to be driven
to suicide. In suicide prevention - the cause of pain _absolutely does not
matter_. What matters - is to teach people to transcend that inner pain.
People only know how to suppress, express, or escape pain. Mostly via
distractions, entertainment, chemicals and sex.

Suicide is an ultimate act of taking the strongest pain killer.

When other painkillers no longer works - and pain grows too sharp, and person
does not know anything better - that seems to be the best way out.

The ultimate suicide guidance teaches people how, instead of running away from
inner emotional and physical pain, turn toward it, observe, see it for what it
really is and let it dissolve in irreversible manner.

When person transcends pain in this way - by facing it, observing it, feeling
it - not only it causes the pain itself to dissolve - the situation or painful
past that caused the pain to be in the first place - fails to re-ignite and
fails to cause pain any longer.

That's it the ultimate healing direction.

That's the real way up from puny, harmless "positivive thinking" toward _any
thinking_. When any thought, any memory, any recollection, no matter how
"negative" fails to cause you to feel inner pain.

~~~
saraid216
The floggings will continue until morale improves.

------
xijuan
I am glad that people here are very understanding and very open about what
they have experienced. I think I have been there. I don't know how bad my
situation was comparing to some of them described in the comments. I have
fought hard to get myself back up. I remember I tried so hard to seek help.
Reflecting back, I think I really just wanted a peace of mind knowing that I
will get better if I could see a doctor. What horrified me was not what I had
to go through. What horrified me is how some people start to treat me
afterwards. They would treat me as a mental patient; they would think I am
dangerous and crazy.. They also think I probably would be able to achieve
anything in life anymore. I feel so sad about this. I have never been treated
like this.

------
cmod
The absolute best evocation I've yet found (and most beautifully written) on
the feelings of depression is Darkness Visible by William Styron. [0]

What he describes may not be accurate for all instances of depression, but he
certainly hits the nail on the head for many.

[0] [http://www.amazon.com/Darkness-Visible-Madness-William-
Styro...](http://www.amazon.com/Darkness-Visible-Madness-William-
Styron/dp/0679736395)

------
lhnz
I think it has a different feeling for lots of different people and that the
feeling can change.

Sometimes it is the physical feeling of nausea and of cold water running
through your veins.

Other times you shake with anxiety and your thoughts do not stay still. You
wonder if you will be crazy permanently as it stunts your abilities, and begin
to count 1..2..3..4..5..6..7..in order to keep your mind..8..9..10..connected
to that one thought you were trying to have.

Or perhaps you feel everything has gone wrong and you recall how you tried to
improve everything and what little effect you had; and you tell yourself off
for your inadequacies and tell yourself that you must try harder next time.
But you feel like it's hopeless: you did your best before and cannot see what
you could do better. So you begin to cry and then start to laugh from the
bitter-sweet realisation that you have given it everything. You ask yourself
whether there's somebody to talk to about all of this, but the counsellors
didn't work, your family have their own troubles, and your friends always cut
you off at any sign you need their care. Why should you receive help anyway:
nothing you are experiencing is out of the realms of normal human experience.
You live a good life.

Sometimes you run across the road and, as you run, a car narrowly misses you.
"I'm not ready to die yet!" you joke, yet your mind counters "Who am I
kidding?" So next time you walk slower, imagining the vehicle slam into you.
Or you imagine throwing yourself off the buildings you're walking past, or
walking into the bar and starting a fight with the most threatening looking
thug so you could either win over something you hate or die violently.
Sometimes people wonder where your new-found courage has come from: why you're
not worried about failing anymore. The horrible truth, it was the best take-
away from the worst thought: you want to win or be ripped apart.

Other days you think of the positive mental attitude you have tried to grow,
the self-help books you have read, the people you have given your love to, and
the pressure that you are putting yourself under to try and come out of this
and you just wonder _how it has been months since I felt pleasure_. A thought
enters your mind: another 10 years for everybody's benefit but mine. Do I
deserve this? Is being able to will myself to continue all there should be
[0].

[0] <http://www.nyu.edu/classes/keefer/hell/camus.html>

------
TempAccount767
I tried to do it once. It's a really terrible place to be in. I tried to take
a knife to my wrists but failed, then ate all the drugs I had on my shelf.
Knocked myself out, and woke up in my own vomit with very sore wrists, not a
cent to my name and all my credit cards maxed out from online gambling. The
lowest point of my life.

There was a build up leading up to that point, I had previously fantasized and
romanticized about it.

For me being suicidal was like being down an inescapable black hole. Managing
depression was similar. When hard times hit, it's all too easy to let your
mind slip down this black hole and start feeling suicidal and depressed, I
have to fight to not go to that place mentally. But when you're feeling low
and you can feel yourself slipping into this black hole it's very tempting to
allow yourself to fall right in.

For me also being suicidal was a deeply visceral experience, and also an
experience of high perceived clarity. Mentally I felt very clear and focused.

It was also a time of uncontrollable and intense emotion. I felt deeply
emotional about life and humanity in general, with small moments of shame. It
was also a time of high desperation, and a place I could see no escape from.
It was a very strong cocktail of negative emotions which are hard enough to
deal with individually. Life as it appeared around me I perceived as
meaningless and vacuous. The path of least resistance to get through each day
was cynicism. Sometimes when I watch the TV or news I had uncontrollable
surges of very intense empathy which would cause me to cry. It's very hard to
articulate exactly how low and desperate I felt.

Fortunately for me my family were always there for me, and now I feel I am
better. Even though at times I did not recognise they were there for me, they
were and they were acting on it. Eventually I started to recognise it and very
slowly I started to make things better.

I really don't think there was any other way for me to escape it all except
with the help of my family. I dread to think what would of become of me if I
didn't have that support network. I feel if I did not have that support
network, I do not think I would have escaped alive. For suicidal people in
worse position than I was I do not know how you would go about helping them.

------
richardlblair
I think this article is great, but what is better is the discussion in the
comments.

From what I've seen we have supportive people who are curious, and people that
have had darker days.

if you came here looking for something yourself, some glimpse of hope, just
read the comments. Many people here suffered, and they found a way through it.
You can too. Hang in there, you will get through it. Just keep fighting. Its
worth it

------
dbbolton
>“The delusion consisted of the patient’s absolute conviction she was already
dead and waiting to be buried, that she had no teeth or hair, and that her
uterus was malformed.”

How did the researchers know this? Did the patient somehow believe she was
dead but that she was still able to speak with the living?

~~~
roflc0ptic
I think there's a really tasteless joke to be made here about looking the
study up on JSTOR. Anyways:

Abstract from scientists who published that study:

> Cotard's syndrome is a psychotic condition that includes delusion of a
> supernatural nature. _Based on insights from recovered patients_ who were
> convinced of being immortal, we can (1) distinguish biographical experiences
> from cultural and evolutionary backgrounds; (2) show that cultural
> significance dominates biographical experiences; and (3) support Bering's
> view of a cognitive system dedicated to forming illusory representations of
> immortality.

<http://philpapers.org/rec/COHPOS>

------
codex
In my opinion, suicide is an evolutionary trait design to unburden the group
when the self is no longer felt to be of any worth; e.g. contributing
positively. If this were true, then placing the suicidal individual in a
completely different environment; one in which they might be more successful,
might be therapeutic. For example, relocated to another country with a foster
family. More easily said than done.

~~~
graue
There is a problem with this theory: it hypothesizes a benefit to a _group_ ,
but no benefit to the _individual_ who commits suicide. Individuals who do not
have the gene(s) that predispose toward committing suicide would therefore be
more fit than individuals who do, and these gene(s) would never become
widespread.

I believe this was one of the main points of Dawkins' _The Selfish Gene_ :
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Selfish_Gene>

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im3w1l
Well if you sacrifice to save a group that also has the gene (e.g. extended
family / tribe) it would work out.

~~~
pjscott
Damn it, you can't just say that; there is math involved! On the one hand, you
have the evolutionary cost to yourself: if you die, then you can't have any
more children. On the other hand, you have the evolutionary benefit to your
close kin: they have access to more resources with you gone. This benefit is
weighted by how closely these other people are related to you. A rule of thumb
is that you break even if you sacrifice your life to save the life of two
siblings, four nephews/nieces, or eight cousins.

Do you really expect that a get-depressed-and-die instinct would reliably
result in at least that much benefit to someone's close kin? If not, then you
don't really expect such an instinct to evolve by kin selection.

~~~
im3w1l
>Do you really expect that a get-depressed-and-die instinct would reliably
result in at least that much benefit to someone's close kin? If not, then you
don't really expect such an instinct to evolve by kin selection.

Consider the case of cancer. Cells have builtin functions for commiting
suicide when something goes awry, and also do not breed excessively normally.
However since knocking those inhibitions out is advantageuos in the short
term, cancer arises again and again. The mutations seems to confer an
advantage, for the first generation, the second generation... quite a few
generations actually. Then suddenly, as the cancer cells reach critical mass,
and the parasite/parasitee ratio grows to large, it becomes a huge liability.
The cancer cells die. Every single one. The end.

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chookrl
There are a lot of extreme sports that could look like people are literally
trying to get themselves killed.

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Evbn
This discussion should have a professional hot line number attached. Real
people could get really hurt venturing into this area.

1-800-273-8255

