
The new land of opportunity for immigrants is Germany - felixbraun
http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/the-new-land-of-opportunity-for-immigrants-is-germany/2014/07/27/93464262-7eff-4931-817c-786db6d21ec8_story.html
======
rayiner
The various sides of the immigration debate are talking past each other. This
article describes a German program that takes high skill people like the
architect profiled in the article, while those opposed to immigration are
mainly concerned about the large numbers of low-skill people who are not
interested in assimilating. The anti-immigrant folks in Britain and France
aren't worried about Mr. Pinol. They're worried about the people who want to
self-govern according to Sharia law inside a western country.

As for the U.S., the key difference with Germany is that our fertility rate is
1.89 (over 2.1 during the boom). Theirs is 1.36 (under 1.4 since 1990).

~~~
freehunter
The article does talk about African laborers and Bulgarian demolition crews.
Not high-skilled work. Also "Angela Merkel... has spoken out against
immigrants relocating here merely to tap generous domestic welfare benefits."

You're right that masses of low-skill immigrants is a problem, especially when
they are not integrating with society. It seems Germany has this problem too
("And many Germans still call the lack of assimilation among Turkish
immigrants a leading national problem.").

Your score is bouncing quite heavily, indicating that this is a controversial
comment. You're not wrong though. The question I still have after reading the
article is, how is Germany dealing with the low-skill immigration (or how
effective is their vocation training and welfare system)? Can the US or UK
implement similar plans with any success?

~~~
_delirium
The Turkish "problem" is longstanding and kind on both sides as well. Many
Turks are not that sure if they want to integrate into German society, and
many Germans are not sure if they want them to either (though this sentiment
is weaker than it once was). That produces a self-reinforcing situation.

Many of the current Turkish residents came during the 1960s as part of a
guest-worker program [1], or are descended from those who did. The expectation
was that they would be temporary workers (no path to citizenship) and
eventually go home again. The program was closed in 1973, and the government
spent much of the late '70s and '80s trying to encourage them to leave, more
than encouraging them to integrate. There are many kids who've grown up 100%
in Germany (some _grandkids_ too) who aren't German citizens, and until very
recently, were not encouraged to become citizens. (Germany does not have _jus
soli_ citizenship, and before a reform in 1999, it was also very difficult for
someone not of German descent to naturalize.)

The fact that many Turks in Germany come from poor and highly conservative
regions of Turkey (generally not Istanbul) doesn't help assimilation, of
course. But it also doesn't help that the message for decades was that they
aren't German and can't become German. And non-integration is complex, too.
When Americans think of unintegrated Mexican immigrants, for example, they
think first and foremost of Spanish speakers who can't speak English. But
almost all the Turks considered unintegrated do speak German. Some (especially
younger generations) don't even speak Turkish fluently (or at all), but _only_
German.

Lots of these aren't German-specific problems, though. Since at least the late
19th century, European counties have been based on the ethnic nation-state,
and transitioning to some idea that people can change nationalities, or even
have more than one (and what that means) is slow and produces opposition.

[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gastarbeiter](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gastarbeiter)

~~~
enraged_camel
As a Turk, I don't see the "Turkish problem" as being Germany's fault at all.
These people went to Germany on a temporary basis, and decided to just not
leave when the guest-worker program ended. In other words, they overstayed
their welcome.

Imagine inviting a guest to your house for dinner, and them liking your house
a lot and deciding to just move in permanently. Are you then expected to
encourage them to put their name on the lease (i.e. become a citizen)? I don't
think so.

~~~
coldtea
>As a Turk, I don't see the "Turkish problem" as being Germany's fault at all.
These people went to Germany on a temporary basis, and decided to just not
leave when the guest-worker program ended. In other words, they overstayed
their welcome.*

Here's how it went down. First, Germany slaughtered and exterminated millions
of people, invaded tons of countries, destroyed their infrastructure, commited
heinous crimes, etc. What we know as World War II.

After the end of the war, West Germany, as a valueable ally of the West
against USSR, got all kinds of help and special treatment to rebuilt its
economy. And they started a program for bringing in workers from places they
invaded and decimated, like Greece. Those workers, like the involuntary
"arbeit mach frei" workers before, were brought to serve as cheap immigrant
labor, under exploitative conditions, to assist the very people that had
unprovoked invaded their countries and killed their relatives and fellow
citizens a decade or so ago. The guest-workers, besides being exploited with
lesser wages than Germans and fewer opportunities for advancment (like b-rate
citizens) they were also treated with extreme racism and prejudice.

Now, the problem of the Germans (the "they overstayed their welcome") was that
these people didn't just disperse when they were done with them, but instead
felt that those hard working years in Germany gave them a right to stay and be
integrated as full citizens.

Such nerve, huh?

~~~
CmonDev
"a program for bringing in workers from places they invaded and decimated" \-
against their will?

~~~
coldtea
I don't really understand this notion -- I usually get this kind of question
from Americans: that if you consent to something, it makes it OK, regardless
of the circumstances under which you gave your consent. I think this ideas
usually comes from people playing life in "easy mode" (white, well educated,
middle or upper middle class), that have never been forced to consent to
humilliating or exploitative demands of the kind billions of people often
have.

If I burn down your house (and kill your cousin and your Jew neighbors), and
you or your kid, starving, accepts to come work for my company, and I treat
you like shit on top, that doesn't make it OK in my book.

~~~
CmonDev
Maybe my knowledge of history in this area is not sufficient.

------
tokenadult
I wonder how many of us commenting on this article read past the headline to
take a look at the chart (displayed on the left side of the article text, as I
view the article in my browser) titled "More Immigrants Moving to Germany"?
That chart shows very plainly, based on OECD statistics, that the United
States has a higher absolute number of immigrants each year than Germany, as
it has for a long time. The striking thing about the very recent statistics is
the recent higher percentage of immigrants in relation to the total population
of the country (313.9 million for the United States, 81.89 million for
Germany), if I'm reading the chart scale correctly,[1] although other
statistics sources continue to report that the United States has a higher rate
of immigration.[2] If that trend is sustained, Germany will indeed be
noteworthy as a country receiving a large percentage of immigrants year on
year, but let's see what happens as the immigration trend interacts with
economic growth trends in Germany and in Europe generally.[3] The economy has
to stay somewhat healthy in German for immigrants to desire to move there.

[1] [http://www.dw.de/immigration-to-germany-at-its-highest-
rate-...](http://www.dw.de/immigration-to-germany-at-its-highest-rate-in-
nearly-two-decades/a-17363452)

[2]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_net_migra...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_net_migration_rate)

[3] [http://www.bloombergview.com/articles/2014-08-14/europe-s-
ec...](http://www.bloombergview.com/articles/2014-08-14/europe-s-economy-is-
broken)

~~~
kbar13
there are more immigrants moving to germany <compared to the past>

------
DasIch
It should be noted that Germany is only a land of opportunity, if you intend
to study there, have a university-level education or are wealthy enough that
your education becomes irrelevant.

Furthermore unless you are doing software development, research or something
similarly internationally focused you will have a bad time, if you don't speak
German.

------
freehunter
What is the chance of moving to Germany from the US without a college degree,
but rather with five years industry experience and a handful of
certifications, plus a good grasp of the German language? Would companies
generally go for that, or would German authorities allow that?

~~~
emsy
I'd say it's possible. I had colleagues with no grasp of the German language,
minor English skills and no degree because the IT Industry in Germany is
terribly hungry for employees. This was in Stuttgart (southwest), but I assume
it's the same accross the country.

~~~
trentmb
Sorry for the dumb question, but how would I find these employers?

I did study four years of German in highschool (so I can hold a conversation
with a toddler. Maybe) and have a degree in mathematics from UIUC.

~~~
kamakazizuru
look on monster.de for english speaking jobs, or thelocal.de - there are also
facebook groups for startups in berlin who are looking to hire. Your best bet
is to be here and look for something though - the odds of getting hired
sitting in the US are slim to none unless you are really highly qualified /
have tonnes of experience. If you're looking to get hired in tech get in
touch.

~~~
trentmb
Hey! I appreciate the intel, but...

Sorry, I'm less than entry level. My studies were general math, though I did
get 'supporting coursework' in CS (~half in CS theory, half 'applied:' Java,
C++). I can't find any entry-level/junior positions that don't require 3-5
year experience in X.

I'm willing to spend my free-time (in addition to working early/late hours)
learning whatever technology you work with, but no one feels like giving me a
chance.

I have a resume link in my profile if you don't mind giving advice.

------
aaron-lebo
Berlin has been talked a lot about on HN, but what is the situation like now?
I know for awhile it was relatively cheap which was one of the big perks, but
housing costs have gone up due to people moving there. What level of
experience would you need as an American programmer to move to Berlin and find
work? Is it a realistic option?

An example of a past thread:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3221799](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3221799)

~~~
DasIch
Rent prices have definitely exploded and there are no signs that the upwards
trend will stop anytime soon. Nevertheless they are still low compared to
cities like London or Paris.

Furthermore software developers in Berlin are in very high demand. If you
speak English fluently and are a good software developer, getting a job in
Berlin should be no problem.

~~~
rememberlenny
What are examples?

~~~
probably_wrong
If you mean examples about rent prices, a 1-room apartment in Charlottenburg
(nice location) costs around €600. Similar apartment in Wedding (a bit further
north) is around €500.

For reference, a regular programming job should be around €1500 per month
after taxes, while a month worth of supermarket food costs around €250
(although the right habits can shave almost a hundred from that). Add another
€100 for a month of unlimited public transport, and you are set.

~~~
uberwach
1500€/month after taxes sounds very low. That is like 27k yearly before taxes
(Steuerklasse 1 / no church taxes). Eastern europeans get paid that, because
you can lowball them so easily. But as far as I know 40k is a lower bound for
cs graduates.

For reference I got 56.5k/year base salary at my first job after graduation
(small company) and that were 2770€/month after taxes. I even have two friends
that earn more than I do. Quit that one after half a year though (russian
offshore programmers communication hell).

Your rent/food prices are correct though. Small hack: your employer can pay
you 44€/month tax-free for the public transport ticket (geldwerter Vorteil
Freibetrag).

------
Mz
Excerpt:

 _“Berlin is different than other parts of Germany, and that’s why I think I
can make it here,” he said. “It is more relaxed, more accepting than other
German cities, and there is no pressure to behave a certain way.”_

As I understand it, that would be something of a holdover from the cold war
days when the culture there was unique due to it's odd political situation.

~~~
krebby
Largely due to the high numbers of young counterculturalists who moved to West
Berlin in the 70s and 80s. (Unlike the rest of West Germany West Berlin didn't
have conscription.)

~~~
facepalm
That sounds unlikely, because I think counterculturalists have very strict
ideas of how you should be.

~~~
krebby
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conscription_in_Germany#Conscie...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conscription_in_Germany#Conscientious_objection_in_the_past)

------
mobiplayer
I don't have much information about Germany apart from a couple one-week
holidays, so I can't really comment on those.

On the other hand, I've moved to Britain 2 years ago (with a secured job that
I'm just leaving for a new one this week) and in my experience this isn't far
away from "The Land of Opportunity". The Greater London area and, to some
extent, the M4 corridor is just the paradise for skilled IT workers. Heck,
even some towns have almost nil unemployment in general (Reading, I'm looking
at you).

Seriously, IT companies struggle to find skilled and experienced people and
often hire from the rest of the EU just because it is a bigger pool and many
>35 y.o. people already speak decent English so, why not?

~~~
Apocryphon
Isn't the London real estate market as pricy as S.F., though?

~~~
mobiplayer
Yes, it is. Hence my comments about the M4 corridor as well... Worth checking
it out (surely not as cheap as Berlin though).

------
mqsiuser
An architect (known HERE IN GERMANY to be an over-run study-topic with too
little jobs or low pay (until you made it)), a social worker, which is now a
dish washer. Highly qualified foreign workers (which we highly need)...

even if the article portrayed a university guy... where are we (Germany,
Europe, rest of the world) on a global ranking on universities?! (We are well
behind Berkley, Stanford and Harvard!)

There were only 170 "expert workers" coming in the first year [1]. Also on
that link a more in-side discussion (german residents) with much more critical
tone (Google translate may help).

And I am not against that all the Russians, Rumanians and now also the people
from the recent crisis come here because of hard economic problems in their
country. But... you know... let's keep the church in the village.

People are having less and less offspring because live gets more difficult
here (work opportunities only in big cities, living costs (esp. housing FOR A
FAMILY), taxes, requirement to travel, etc.). And then arguing "we need
people/imigrants"... it's just twisting everything... like a german politician
said "I make me my world as I'd like it to be"). There is even the debate
here, that "Germany gets rid of itself".

And then YC summer "batch" consisting of 68 groups, which received funding
(some, then "B", "C", what 1 Mio, then 21 Mio)... wow... there is not much
here (sorry, no it's not!)

Ignorance is bliss ("ja ja ja, the Americans are just more risk-friendly", end
of personal horizont)

It's good to be called a "SF based company"

"Made in Germany", yeah... cars... and cars and cars (I wouldn't wonder if
Google or Apple or a StartUp (Tesla?) would crush these next)

Europe, welcome to the old world!

But what will it look like in 10 or 20 years?

[1]
[http://m.welt.de/print/welt_kompakt/print_wirtschaft/article...](http://m.welt.de/print/welt_kompakt/print_wirtschaft/article131322266/Im-
ersten-Jahr-kamen-nur-170-Fachkraefte.html)

~~~
facepalm
I think the universities are really good. I agree on the cars issue. Makes me
really nervous that everything hinges on the car industry and they don't seem
to get the future at all.

------
avar
What's the endgame for propping up population numbers with immigration? Surely
the whole system falls apart once the net fertility rate falls below 2. What
then?

There's good reasons to be immigration-friendly, but dealing with the endgame
of the inevitably shrinking population like the Japanese are doing seems like
a better long-term strategy than the temporary band-aid solution of solving
the problem in the short-term with increased immigration.

------
idlewords
So immigrant-friendly that sometimes it even comes to you!

~~~
l33tbro
Immigrant friendly, sure. Refugee friendly? Not so much. Berlin is having some
massive issues right now with how to handle them (1).

Then again, I'm in Australia, so I can't really talk.

(1) [https://news.vice.com/video/berlins-refugee-
crisis](https://news.vice.com/video/berlins-refugee-crisis)

------
ExpiredLink
"Immigrants" from Italy and Spain? Is the author joking or just ignorant?
People within the EU can live and work wherever they want. No "immigration
procedure" necessary. Just pack your things and go.

~~~
sapiogram
> immigrant, noun.

> 1\. A person who leaves one country to settle permanently in another.

I think he knows exactly what "immigrants" means.

