
Jeffrey Epstein: Financier 'found dead in cell' in New York - MobileVet
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-49306032
======
mc32
This sounds too convenient. If this was a suicide and not anything more
sinister, this is gross negligence by prison authorities. It was their solemn
duty and responsibility to see this person face trial.

This will only inflame conspiracy theory minded people to believe there is a
vast conspiracy by the powerful to protect themselves.

This is depressing. I’m yet hopeful evidence will be used to bring guilty
parties to justice. This wasn’t just mr Epstein.

~~~
joshgel
I am not a lawyer, but @klasfeldreports on twitter quotes an unnamed legal
source who says:

"Background: An important note after Epstein's death: no one else will have
standing to challenge the search warrant on his house. Everything will be
admissible against any other defendant without possibility of a motion to
suppress."

So maybe this will be a net good for justice?

~~~
mc32
Maybe. One hopes this can be salvaged. I guess we may never know who was
behind it all pulling the levers. Mr Epstein can’t have been at the top.

~~~
dragonwriter
Epstein was quite plausibly the chief procurer; he no doubt had a wife array
of powerful clients, but there's not a lot of reason to think there was a
higher-level mastermind behind Epstein in the procurement operation.

~~~
ryacko
Epstein comes off as an unhinged individual. With a mansion full of sex art, a
normal reaction would be “we should have known in retrospect”, not a
sweetheart plea deal.

~~~
dragonwriter
> Epstein comes off as an unhinged individual. With a mansion full of sex art,
> a normal reaction would be “we should have known in retrospect”, not a
> sweetheart plea deal.

That Epstein had politically powerful clients and friends is not in serious
dispute (which were clients and which were merely friends unconnected to his
child rape business is somewhat less clear), and explains the sweetheart plea
deal without resort to some behind-Epstein mastermind.

It's not impossible, but there is nothing that is explained more easily by
such a mastermind than by the Epstein being the master of his own sex trade
operation which garnered him influence (simply heading that operation means he
has powerful blackmail material on powerful people.)

~~~
ryacko
I suggest reading the book October Surprise by Gary Sick. Intelligence
agencies don’t use competent people.

Your understanding of the situation is incorrect, and is leading you to
incorrect conclusions.

~~~
dragonwriter
> I suggest reading the book October Surprise by Gary Sick. Intelligence
> agencies don’t use competent people.

They use incompetent people who can be manipulated into believing they have
common interests and competent people who believe in their own that they have
common interests, but, yes, they often use incompetent people. The relevance
of this observation is unclear, as it still presents no existing phenomenon
that requires a shady superior to Epstein to explain.

> Your understanding of the situation is incorrect.

You have as yet provided no way in which my understanding is incorrect.

~~~
ryacko
Looking at Epstein’s life seems incredible.

It is so incredible it is beyond my understanding.

But you claim to understand it, which is also very much beyond me.

But you are right, more so than you think, I cannot provide a way for you to
understand something I don’t understand.

------
s9w
This makes me so angry. Such an important case, so much on the line. And then
this. And if you question the official narrative of "suicide", you will
probably soon be labeled a conspiracy theorist.

Oh an just by the way, this news broke first on 4chan (thread 222518349). That
just on the matter of what the value of these sites are.

edit: and already there are [dead] comments who question this

~~~
belltaco
The problem, in my experience, is that for one legit fact usually there is a
lot of actual fake news thrown in, along with context free facts, in those
communities. This causes a lot of people believe false things and keep
repeating it to others. A form of brainwashing. Also people who assume
someone's guilt and then work backwards towards showing it, while ignoring
other signs.

~~~
Fjolsvith
This is the way I would have explained the main stream media.

------
alkonaut
Wow. I don’t think I have seen a situation before where Occam’s razor doesn’t
help writing off the conspiracy. It seems harder in this case to believe
someone in a jail cell on suicide watch kills themselves than to believe that
it was arranged (that is, at least “allowed”). It’s suspiciously sloppy.

~~~
DanBC
People "on suicide watch" die all the time. It's not super rare.

~~~
ASalazarMX
It's not super common either. He was a very high profile criminal, but also a
potential witness against very high profile people. Special precautions should
have been taken.

~~~
tfha
And he was under 24/7 camera surveillance. If it was a clean suicide there
should be video evidence.

~~~
FireBeyond
And wouldn't you know it? "Oops, camera malfunction. We'll investigate that,
too..."

~~~
2_listerine_pls
That's indeed what happened.

~~~
wellyeah
I believe you, but could you cite a source on there being a camera and it
malfunctioning? Because damn, this is just getting truly impossible to believe
it was just a suicide.

~~~
2_listerine_pls
I shouldn't have affirm it. @michaelcoudrey tweeted it yesterday, without a
source, and others followed.

------
heymijo
These headlines...

"Financier"

Everything I have read since this came out states no one has any idea
how/where Epstein made his money. And yet, the headlines read "Financier." Not
convicted criminal. Suspected sex trafficker, rapist, pedophile, or anything
of that nature.

Everything about Epstein and this case shows the insane power imbalance
between those at the top of our society and everyone else.

~~~
sangnoir
In the press, the alleged victims were "young women" \- not "minors" or
"underaged". The difference in reporting is amazing to behold.

~~~
grandridge
There is a term for that.

------
koralewski
Somehow 4chan knew it before media reported it:
[https://archive.4plebs.org/pol/thread/222518349/](https://archive.4plebs.org/pol/thread/222518349/)

~~~
MobileVet
Maybe because they didn’t need to corroborate the story first.

------
faissaloo
It may be a good idea to watch out for cops and guards from that prison
suddenly 'buying businesses', making other large and successful investments,
receiving expensive gifts and/or gaining large amounts of wealth. My current
theory is that Epstein had a bounty on his head and was killed by a cop or
guard, it's often case that prison 'suicides' are in fact covers for police
brutality gone too far, so I think this is the most likely scenario.

~~~
mieseratte
> it's often case that prison 'suicides' are in fact covers for police
> brutality gone too far

How often?

~~~
mayankkaizen
Are you implying that prison suicides are always genuine suicides?

Are you denying that police doesn't commit extreme brutality?

How can anyone give a number? Sure, one can give a number for suspicious cases
but how can anyone say for sure that a given suicide was in fact a murder?

Can you always access the actual information regarding what happens in jail?

How often do you think Black people are mistreated by police? What are the
actual numbers of black people being subjected to police brutality? If you
cannot provide the actual numbers, does that mean it doesn't happen at all.

I am all for data but many times I feel like people ask for data just for the
sake of derailing the otherwise meaningful discussion or because they're
trying to be over smart.

~~~
mieseratte
> Are you implying that prison suicides are always genuine suicides?

I'm asking how often they are cover-ups.

> Are you denying that police doesn't commit extreme brutality?

I'm asking how often they are cover-ups.

> How can anyone give a number? Sure, one can give a number for suspicious
> cases but how can anyone say for sure that a given suicide was in fact a
> murder?

Maybe someone has done some research into this or is otherwise more informed
than I and I would love to know.

> Can you always access the actual information regarding what happens in jail?

No but one can certainly try.

> How often do you think Black people are mistreated by police? What are the
> actual numbers of black people being subjected to police brutality? If you
> cannot provide the actual numbers, does that mean it doesn't happen at all.

That's irrelevant to my question.

> I am all for data but many times I feel like people ask for data just for
> the sake of derailing the otherwise meaningful discussion or because they're
> trying to be over smart.

Sometimes I feel like people derail a thread because they're presumptuous and
read too much into a simple question.

------
fencepost
I was expecting to see conspiracy theories due to the assorted powerful and
wealthy people Epstein has been linked with, but really think about it. He was
a wealthy man who lived a pampered lifestyle and had largely escaped
consequences for his actions in the past but was unlikely to do so in this
case. He was looking at spending the rest of his life not just in prison but
as something of a pariah in prison (wealthy, privileged, child abuser). He'd
attempted suicide previously and if that was an attempt on his life he had
ample opportunity to say so.

As far as the suicide watch, sure he was high profile but he was in jail
awaiting trial and there are probably plenty of people put on suicide watch.
The jail doesn't have the resources to monitor everyone 24/7, and frankly
regular checks are probably plenty to catch or prevent most attempts.

~~~
cjbprime
Hanging yourself takes material and a room where you can tie it up. Suicide
watch is supposed to involve access to neither. That's a more important
component than someone watching you occasionally.

------
gooseus
A lot of people talking about how hard it would be for him to kill himself and
conspiracy stuff, but if there is a conspiracy then I think it's just as
likely that Epstein could use his immense resources and connections to make
sure that someone was looking the other way when he attempted.

It certainly could be a murder, but I'm not quite as convinced as other people
seem... I'm sure it's very convenient for lots of his ghoulish friends, but it
also makes a lot of sense that he would do anything necessary to get out of
facing his crimes and the surrounding media circus.

~~~
ASalazarMX
> Epstein could use his immense resources and connections to make sure that
> someone was looking the other way when he attempted.

If we're entering conspiracy theory territory, why couldn't Epstein use said
resources and connections to find a lookalike/prop artist, buy people and fake
his own suicide?

~~~
breatheoften
It’s not actually a conspiracy theory to suggest that — all that’s required is
ordinary corruption.

~~~
ASalazarMX
Another possibility that doesn't require a conspiracy theory: Epstein's death
is fake but blatantly obvious because he agreed to be a protected witness.

~~~
Lambdanaut
That's also a conspiracy theory...

A conspiracy theory is just a theory that a group is conspiring without the
knowledge of others. In this case, the conspiring group is the one faking the
death.

~~~
ASalazarMX
I never thought of the witness protection program as a conspiracy, but I guess
it fits.

------
tyingq
Oy. Certainly they knew this was a strong possibility, and a high profile
case. I'm not prone to tin foil hattery, but this smells bad.

~~~
rejschaap
There was an earlier attempt or incident and he was on 'suicide watch'.

------
joshgel
Paraphrase from someone I saw on Twitter (can't find now):

Most people have already jumped to the conclusion that he was murdered. That's
child's play for conspiracy theorists.

The real conspiracy theory is he faked his death!

~~~
rurban
The current theory is that they faked his death, they switched someone with
him, who will get cremated very soon. The NY Post photo of him showed a
different guy, and the meds looked also very suspicious.

------
Millennium
What a waste. May none mourn this creature's passing, but his particular case
represented too many valuable opportunities for him to be allowed to die
before trial.

Whoever allowed enough of a lapse in his suicide watch that the concept of him
being "found" at all even makes sense should be fired and sued for gross
malfeasance.

~~~
willis936
Even then they would only be getting another little guy, and not the malicious
party.

~~~
Millennium
True, but honestly, with so many people clearly after him, I'm not sure we can
assume any of them got him. His psyche had clearly been cracking for many
weeks now: I got as much sadistic pleasure as anyone else out of watching him
basically flat-out break down and beg the judge for a chance to flee. We
already know he'd tried to kill himself once before any of his long list of
enemies could get their hands on him. If he was indeed "found dead", then
yeah, it's fun to joke that he was clearly hanged 37 times by the CIA, the
Clintons, Hollywood, MI6, MIT, the Russians, Trump, and at least two alien
species, but I don't think we can discount the possibility that he simply
siezed on the next opportunity to beat any of them to the punch.

He should have gotten that horrible 24-hour naked suicide watch thing that
Manning got, all the way until trial. Certainly he demonstrated better need
for it.

------
sushikokk
[https://www.armstrongeconomics.com/international-
news/rule-o...](https://www.armstrongeconomics.com/international-news/rule-of-
law/when-will-epstein-be-found-dead-before-or-after-a-deal/)

Predicted by Martin Armstrong

~~~
mavdi
Didn’t take much analysis to predict it.

------
rdtsc
If he was suicided, it was very well done, and a message sent to everyone who
is involved. The message is "if you betray us, we will find and kill you even
while you are on suicide watch in jail".

Epstein just didn't seem like a guy who would have a guilty conscience and
decide he couldn't handle all any more.

I looked a bit into his case, mainly prompted by articles like these:

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20576530](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20576530)

There made the point of connecting Brin to Epstein and other SV tech people,
but then Clinton didn't show up to his dinner party once. Hmm. It seems to me
like there is a deeper connection to the Clintons since they are going out of
their way to distance his from Epstein with such awkward articles.

I guess, maybe those who feel brave enough should see if the prison warden or
one of the guards on duty ends up getting some scholarships or trust funds for
their children. Or one of them suddenly pays off a large chunk of their
mortgage.

~~~
0xcde4c3db
> Epstein just didn't seem like a guy who would have a guilty conscience and
> decide he couldn't handle all any more.

He did seem to me like a guy who would take the prospect of a life sentence
_very_ badly, though. Based on recent reporting, he seemingly believed that he
was going to usher in a new stage of human development through a combination
of spreading his own DNA (i.e. impregnating dozens of women) and funding
research into genetic engineering, AI, and maybe even ESP. The near-certainty
of recent events dooming that project could have been a fatal blow to his ego.

------
einpoklum
NYT reports Epstein was taken off suicide watch, and that on suicide watch, he
would not have had something to easily hang himself with, plus, he would
likely have had a cell-mate to keep him out of trouble.

[https://www.nytimes.com/2019/08/10/nyregion/jeffrey-
epstein-...](https://www.nytimes.com/2019/08/10/nyregion/jeffrey-epstein-
suicide-watch.html)

So, yup, definitely fishy for him to be taken off suicide watch.

------
not_a_moth
This happened hours after the latest tranche of documents were made public,
documents that named names.

Unfortunately for this community, one of our MIT heros was on that list. Don't
even know what to say.

~~~
MobileVet
Source please... I want to see the names, ALL of the names.

------
xwdv
If you were in his position though why not just kill yourself off? At 66
there’s not much life left to live and what’s left is going to be pretty
shitty anyway behind bars.

~~~
vnchr
If I was his attorney, I would have advised he negotiate for a lighter
sentence in exchange for cooperation around bringing others to justice.
Standard practice. He could have gotten off with a light sentence and brought
many others to justice. He’s literally done that before.

~~~
goalieca
It sounds like trump was involved in at least one instance. I don’t think any
lawyer would advise against flipping on that turd sandwich while Moscow mitch
is running the senate.

~~~
whamlastxmas
There's zero evidence of this.

~~~
JKCalhoun
Certainly testimony anyway: [https://www.snopes.com/news/2016/06/23/donald-
trump-rape-law...](https://www.snopes.com/news/2016/06/23/donald-trump-rape-
lawsuit/)

~~~
makomk
That case was odd. It's not clear that the plaintiff even exists. The
addresses on record for her in the court system were bogus, journalists
haven't been able to speak with her, she was a no-show at the press conference
promoted by her lawyer where she was supposed to appear, and all of the
lawsuits were dropped before she could testify.

------
AndrewBissell
"Epstein will be 'suicided' in prison before he talks" went from "conspiracy
theory" to fact in a matter of weeks. When a certain mindset or perspective is
able to see that clearly around the bend, it's time to start considering that
it has some real explanatory power.

Although this feels less like a conspiracy than an open demonstration of
power. "Yes, we run everything and we're completely above the law to the point
we don't even need to hide it anymore. What are you gonna do about it?"

------
m0zg
And notice how all mainstream media headlines use a strictly affirmative tone
wrt whether it really was a suicide.

CNN: "Jeffrey Epstein died by suicide" NyTimes: "Jeffrey Epstein hanged
himself in jail" ABC: "Jeffrey Epstein died by suicide"

etc etc. Just go to Google News and see for yourself. It's as if no reasonable
person could possibly suspect that he was helped along, even though literally
everyone was saying he will not live long enough to see trial, for months.

Lots of very powerful people (including some/all of the media owners) want
this swept under the rug as quickly as possible for obvious reasons. I expect
that it will be memory holed within a week at most.

If DOJ/FBI/US penitentiary is not complicit, they should take in Ghislaine
Maxwell into custody at this time and put her on the suicide watch, but for
real this time. And possibly also offer protective custody to some of the
girls who are testifying.

------
willis936
This "suicide" is as believable as a "Russian reporter falling on a knife 26
times".

~~~
harambae
[https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Moscow%20Sui...](https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Moscow%20Suicide)

------
buttcoinslol
Does anyone know the going rate for a prison murder in NY? Through the guards,
not the other inmates.

~~~
tyingq
I imagine the stakes are high enough here that the _" going rate"_ is
irrelevant. Millions would be a pittance.

------
kshacker
Jokes from Reddit:

1\. Committed suicide by shootings himself 15 times at the back of his head

2\. If you are surprised by his suicide, imagine how surprised he himself was

Reddit has been predicting this for days or weeks now.

------
anonu
How does a guy on suicide watch kill himself? This is a massive failure of
Justice.

~~~
DanBC
"Suicide watch" covers a range of activity. Someone may be getting a visual
check once an hour, once every 30 minutes, or once every 15 minutes. That may
be as simple as looking through a hatch / peephole to see if the person isn't
obviously ligatured, or it may include calling to the person and hearing a
response.

There's not much evidence that 15 minute observations work, and some evidence
they cause harm. If someone's risk is high enough for them to be on
observations they probably need to be on continuous observations.

Continuous observations are tricky. Imagine another person being with you 24
hours of the day, watching you while you eat, bathe, defecate. We want to
avoid them if possible because it doesn't build the patient's / prisoner's
safety. It keeps them safe for those few days, but it may significantly
increase their risk afterwards.

And this is if the observations actually happen. Sometimes staff lie.
[https://twitter.com/KirstenSjovoll/status/106738247933674291...](https://twitter.com/KirstenSjovoll/status/1067382479336742912?s=20)

15 minute obs disturb sleep and don't work:
[https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/bjpsych-
bulletin/art...](https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/bjpsych-
bulletin/article/against-the-stream-intermittent-nurse-observations-of-
inpatients-at-night-serve-no-purpose-and-cause-sleep-
deprivation/BF2CD76D8F8970581ED48C7594E9A3C4#.XGPGNer5dXM.twitter)

~~~
tfha
Wasn't he on 24/7 camera surveillance?

------
jamesdmiller
How common is it for a federal inmate on suicide watch to commit suicide?
What's the Bayesian prior?

------
drukenemo
Relevant
[https://reddit.com/r/WhitePeopleTwitter/comments/covug3/noth...](https://reddit.com/r/WhitePeopleTwitter/comments/covug3/nothing_to_see_here/)

------
aiscapehumanity
Now we may not find out the further extent of his rings, the clients, etc.

------
badrabbit
I too believe this might be a conspiracy of some sort

But there is still a chance he committed suicide willingly. Perhaps he himself
couldn't stand the upcoming revelations and bribed the guards or someone else
to remove some of the restrictions so he can roam free enough to do the deed.

I read before,he has had a conviction at some point where he only served time
on weekends and basically had cops dedicated to his "protection" who called
him "Mr. Epstein" unlike they would a normal prisoner.

I just hate concluding with incomplete information at hand.

------
atemerev
Epstein’s case shows why all those “Pizzagate” and other similar conspiracy
theories seemed believable, no matter if they were fake.

The current political crisis is the crisis of trust.

~~~
krapp
I want to reply to you before your comment probably gets flagged.

That "political crisis of trust" is not entirely organic, and mentioning
Pizzagate is an example of why that shouldn't be taken at face value.
Pizzagate wasn't just a meme, it was an orchestrated attempt to poison the
well of support for Hillary Clinton and the Democratic campaign. People in
this very thread are _still_ trying to push a connection between Epstein,
Pizzagate and the Clintons.

I mention this because whenever this "crisis of trust" is brought up,
inevitably the blame for it is placed either entirely on "the left," "the
(left-wing) media establishment" or (probably leftist) politicians... in other
words, its scope and nature is almost always framed in a way that benefits a
specific political narrative.

~~~
atemerev
That was my point. The Russians, or whoever was behind that particular
operation, chose this narrative over many other options, exactly because it
was believable.

Any real controversy will be amplified, inflated and exploited by foreign
interests these days.

------
sadmann1
This is totally not suspicious

~~~
febeling
Agreed. He has motive for suicide, too, though.

~~~
mynameishere
And the motive would be...he swore a blood oath to commit suicide once he was
caught. It was either that or an ordinary political murder.

The idea that this guy killed himself out of despair or whatever is an
unbelievable laugh. He was psychologically a reptile.

~~~
0815test
I don't think we can know this for sure. He was definitely a sex predator,
quite possibly a sociopath, but to call him a psychopath with a 'Reptilian'
emotional structure seems like a step too far

------
ada1981
My default perspective on this is that he was an intelligence asset tasked
with blackmailing the worlds most powerful people.

~~~
kurthr
Because a well known creep with a $B doesn't already explain it? Instead we
postulate an extra hundred horrible people all keeping a terrible secret...
that also have terrible OpSec so they pay people off all the time.

Or the "underage girls" were actually fembots designed in an underground lair
by radio controlled sharks?

~~~
ada1981
This perspective was reached after a discussion with a top adviser of Trump,
Clinton, Obama and other world leaders.

~~~
ada1981
Its very HN to get downvoted for sharing a perspective and how one arrived at
it.

Acosta said the reason he didn’t give him a harsher sentence back in 2007 was
because he “belonged to intelligence”.

>> He’d cut the non-prosecution deal with one of Epstein’s attorneys because
he had “been told” to back off, that Epstein was above his pay grade. “I was
told Epstein ‘belonged to intelligence’ and to leave it alone,” he told his
interviewers in the Trump transition, who evidently thought that was a
sufficient answer and went ahead and hired Acosta. <<

[https://observer.com/2019/07/jeffrey-epstein-spy-
intelligenc...](https://observer.com/2019/07/jeffrey-epstein-spy-intelligence-
work/)

~~~
kurthr
Wow, you literally have to go to Jared Kushner's magazine to find that out...
of course there is other controversy as well, but it seems a bit self serving.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Observer_Media](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Observer_Media)

------
thallium205
Suicided.

~~~
glbrew
Probably not suicided in the direct sense. Probably, "we aren't going to walk
by your cell for the next hour, if you're still around rich and powerful
people will make you wish you had taken your life."

------
sidcool
This reminds of the famous 'Whackings' scene from the movie The Casino.

Reference: [https://youtu.be/m4NUFTwAlQc](https://youtu.be/m4NUFTwAlQc)

------
aldoushuxley001
Why was he not on suicide watch considering he just had a failed suicide
attempt? Either that's gross incompetence or something more sinister

~~~
DanBC
"Suicide watch" doesn't have a fixed meaning.

People on 15 minute observations can and do die by suicide.

If someone is at risk and you think obs are going to help (they don't always
help, they can make things worse) you need to have them under full time obs.

But even then how close does that need to be? Two staff members within arms
reach 24 hours of the day, including during eat, bathing, defecating?

~~~
alkonaut
I thinking he would have been under some kind of regular watch and in a room
with no sharp corners, no cables, no belt, ...

It’s going to be really interesting to hear how it happened.

~~~
DanBC
People rip their clothing to form ligatures.

------
chimen
Just one word comes to mind: "convenient"

------
13of40
It's an interesting question whether a person in his position has a right to
commit suicide.

~~~
liability
No, not really, that doesn't seem like an interesting question at all. Can you
convince me otherwise? It seems obvious to me that while a right to commit
suicide _might_ exist typically, somebody imprisoned is obviously not entitled
to it. We restrict many rights when we imprison people, and I see no reason
why the 'right to commit suicide' should not be one of them. Allowing such a
man to kill himself denies his victims, some of whom may yet be unidentified,
to opportunity to resolve the matter in a satisfactory way.

~~~
gridlockd
> No, not really, that doesn't seem like an interesting question at all.

You say that, yet you went through the trouble of writing a reply that ponders
this exact question: At what point does suicide become _morally_ acceptable?

I do think it is an interesting question. I'd go the way of saying: If you
still have serious responsibilities (as in this case), it is immoral.

It's worth noting that suicide used to be a serious offense - or even a
capital offense, ironically.

~~~
liability
I can think of many situations in which suicide is morally acceptable. I'd be
very critical of anybody who asserts otherwise, that would be a much more
interesting conversation to have, if only because I think I could really lay
into anybody who disagreed with me on that matter. Whether prisoners should be
able too is less interesting, so far I've not seen a compelling argument for
permitting it. It seems like a perversion of justice to allow it.

------
notathing
Does this mean that the case will be immediately dropped since he was the only
accused?

~~~
nradov
Only accused _so far_. Hopefully other indictments will be coming.

The civil suits will continue against Epstein's estate.

------
rurban
But the dead guy who was photographed when they rolled him out, had a
different nose and a different ear. Convenient, if so.

------
bencoder
Helped by the powerful right up to the end

~~~
18pfsmt
Is the death penalty "cruel and unusual" punishment, or helpful?

There is no way to humanely force people to tell the public what they know.
This doesn't really impact the accusations against him other than preventing
people from asking him questions to which he lies as a response. His suicide
does not erase the evidence, nor witnesses and accusers.

~~~
bencoder
It just seems like he must have had help, somehow, in order to kill himself.
Regardless of his or his assistant's motivation.

------
maxaf
Monsters can occur anywhere. What makes a real difference is a community’s
capacity for looking the other way when an individual sheds their personhood
in the perpetration of heinous acts. Look at religious organizations (Catholic
Church, Orthodox Jews in Brooklyn, ...) and in the sports world (USA
Gymnastics) and in financial/political circles.

Now more than ever, if you see something - say something. No matter how
esteemed a person may be within their field of activity, monstrous acts demand
the swiftest of retribution.

------
kgwxd
This article doesn't ask, let alone answer, the question in the HN title.

~~~
MobileVet
True, sorry. Having no legal background I was genuinely curious what happens
next.

Does the state drop everything? Are the materials made available for other
cases?

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turk73
Here's your choices:

1) Killed by cleaners doing the bidding of the elite to protect them and cover
up their misdeeds. If so, the reach of the mighty is total and that would
explain why so many politicians and public figures are scared to commit to
changing anything and why police detectives commit suicide mysteriously and
why so many public officials "fall in line" isn't just to keep the dental plan
but to stay alive.

2) Committed suicide because he was either loyal to a foreign intelligence
agency or to whoever is on the other side of the people he was helping
blackmail. A disciplined foreign agent? Seems unlikely. Maybe more of a rogue
agent or someone who "left the reservation" as they say. Usually those types
get cleaned up before they can do much damage, but suppose he was protected?

3) It is entirely possible that he entered a witness protection program of
some high-level variety. I think this is less likely since those types of
things usually happen after the trial and this was his own trial but the
evidence entered into the record would likely have implicated many public
figures and well known people. I would venture as far as saying 99% of those
people would be Democrats. Sorry to make it partisan, fwiw GOP establishment
people are just as crooked, but they accept bribes.

3a) Like the allegations surrounding Ken Lay, maybe he had enough money to
create his own escape? It would be "allowed" the way it was "allowed" that El
Chapo escaped from prison in Mexico. Bribery, deals, etc.

4) Facing the prospect of remaining behind bars for the rest of his life
(10-15 more years?) he took the coward's way out as did so many evildoers
before him. Recall that he hobnobbed with the fanciest and most fast moving
people in the world and to be brought low like this is impossibly damaging to
that kind of personality. It's also possible, however unlikely, that his
conscience finally caught up to him. He certainly did abuse a lot of young
women.

What have I missed?

I'm enthralled but also disgusted with what is going on these days. In the
span of just one week we've seen 8chan taken down, which, even if you hated
that place, you have to admit was a major blow to actual freedom of speech on
the Internet. Someone used influence and corporate preference to do what
governments couldn't do, which is shut up a vocal minority asking real
questions. We can't even have the barest, most meager free speech, not really.
Yes, that site was full of antisemitism salted with kiddie porn, but I suspect
that stuff was spammed there by agents provocateur in order to chase away the
curious. It was just too constant a thing, as was all the astrological
horseshit and other attendant, easily debunked nonsense. How better to
marginalize dangerous minds than to apply the "child porn" label to them?
There is no better way! Wait until "Red Flag" laws get weaponized.

So Epstein is dead or won't be heard from again, at least. Assange is next.
What after?

The entire Western world seems to be sleep-walking right into totalitarianism.
When we lose the rule of law or when there is two sets of policies for the
elite and for the "rest of us" or for the "party loyal" that portends the next
wave which is violence. It is entirely clear that violence is what is sought,
too. They aren't even pretending to care what moderate people think anymore or
who ends up being harmed, as long as power keeps concentrating.

~~~
nkurz
> What have I missed?

I think there are many other possibilities, but unfortunately, we may never
have a more conclusive answer than the one we have now. Without trying to give
any particular weight to any of these:

Perhaps he unintentionally died during an "enhanced interrogation", and death
by suicide is an officially sanctioned coverup.

Perhaps he died naturally of a heart attack, and for whatever internal reason
(to cover for the lack of proper medical response?), the prison decided to
report it as a suicide by hanging.

Perhaps he was poisoned by a guard or another inmate simply because accused
child molesters don't fare well in prison. The prison decided that declaring
it a suicide was better than explaining why their security was so poor.

Perhaps the rumors are true that he was working for an intelligence service
(US or foreign) and he was sprung by his employer. The apparent suicide is
merely a coverup to explain his sudden absence, with the prison deceived as
well.

Perhaps nothing at all has happened to him, but for some reason the
prosecution and defense decided that a false story about this was the best way
to "flush out" some other offender.

I think the real pressure should be on obtaining proper video evidence of
whatever did happen. Who knows if it's true, but there are rumors of camera
malfunctions. Like police body cams that seem to avoid recording crucial
moments, this would seem incredibly suspicious. Was there ever any video found
for his "previous suicide attempt"? If nothing else, perhaps there can be a
change in policy so that at least the expectation of video evidence will
prevent some future recurrence.

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cannedslime
What a wierd header to use for this story. What about "Jeffrey Epstein:
Suspected child trafficker 'found dead in cell' in New York"

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moltensodium
Can we just shut down the Department of Corrections? They are, at best,
massively incompetent and negligent, and at worst, massively corrupt and
negligent.

~~~
frozesodium
So just let all the inmates out into the streets, not because they do
absolutely nothing, but because they aren't perfect according to your
standards. A stop the world rewrite, HN style, right?

Have you ever seen documentaries of prisons in South American countries?

Peru has some truly apocalyptic examples of prisons that are just walled yards
with dilapidated shelters and no guards. Well, maybe a maximum of watch towers
manned with snipers...

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nvu575hiOOc](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nvu575hiOOc)

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peruvian_prison_massacres](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peruvian_prison_massacres)

In these prisons they just drop raw ingredients for food that the gates to the
yard, and transfer them to the inmates' possession. On occasion there are
incidents that require communication or the transfer of individuals, and they
treat it like handling hostages.

So, it's not like your suggestion isn't in use. Consider the shape it takes,
when directly applied to real world scenarios.

~~~
greggyb
Your comment was dead. I vouched for it, because I think the point you're
making is a valid one.

I'll just note that you come across very combative. HN is intended to be an
environment of thoughtful and substantive discussion. I would recommend that
you peruse the guidelines[0] for discussion.

Some specific feedback on what I interpret as combative, and what I expect led
to the killing downvotes:

The first paragraph is very dismissive and responds to your assumption of the
intent of the parent, rather than something they said. I would suggest a
clarifying question to understand what shape they expect their suggestion to
take, rather than assume a strawman.

The second paragraph is disparaging and suggests that you consider the parent
to be ignorant.

[0]
[https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html](https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html)

~~~
eitland
And to top the irony this comment is downvoted as well.

I know the guidelines say something about not talking about voting but there
are times when I guess it would be good to understand the spirit of that rule
instead of the letter.

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6nf
He was suicided.

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gwicks56
Most conspiracy theories are obviously bullshit.....

