
Ask HN: How do I find meaningful work? - throwawaybs
I look around and I feel like all the startups are either bullshit or making the world worse off. I&#x27;ve been a software engineer and data scientist. I&#x27;ve worked with machine learning. What should I do next?<p>I&#x27;m sick of working with advertising-based businesses because I believe advertising is convincing people to buy useless shit. I don&#x27;t want to work in health, because the government and insurance have fucked up the healthcare system, and I don&#x27;t want to be part of it. I kinda like fin-tech, but it seems at the end of the day about make rich people richer and&#x2F;or getting poor people to pollute more. I&#x27;ve thought about heading more towards pure research, but I want to know I&#x27;m doing something for a good purpose.<p>I&#x27;m also totally sick of the ideological crap at lots of startups. I don&#x27;t want to have to drink the kool-aid. Neither do I want to work for some large corporate machine.<p>I want there to be real values behind what I&#x27;m working on that I can believe in. Despite claims to contrary, I find the entire business culture rotten to the core. What should I do?
======
kevinconroy
Try the nonprofit world: [http://idealist.org/](http://idealist.org/)

I used to say "Nonprofits? They aren't doing anything interesting with tech!!"

One day, my wife convinced me to try searching on Idealist just to see if
there were any nonprofits doing anything interested with tech. I feel in love
with the _very first result_ , got the job, worked my way up the ranks, and am
now Chief Product Officer at GlobalGiving.org and I couldn't be happier.

Looking for a shortlist of orgs that I'd recommend? Try any one of the orgs at
[https://www.ctosforgood.org](https://www.ctosforgood.org)

~~~
Asparagirl
This! But you know, starting your own non-profit is a great idea too. I
started one this year, and now I get to invent my very own job every day:
fighting and sometimes suing the government under state and federal Freedom of
Information laws, and rescuing millions of records that I return to the public
domain! It's meaningful work that I can do on my own schedule, and it fills a
void that no one else was doing. And no dumb-ass recruiter is ever going to
beat that.

~~~
KGIII
I read through to see if anyone had mentioned this.

When I retired I was rather bored and felt as if life was not really giving me
any challenges. So, I found it in volunteering, including a small non-profit
startup.

I'd also add that there may not need for it to be your work, as in gainful
employment, that is meaningful. You may be able to fill that outside of work -
assuming you have time. Dunno if it will work for you, but I'll add it.

It's nice to be able to give something back. It's uplifting to fill a void for
someone else. I suppose, in a way, it may even be a little selfish. I do,
after all, sometimes do it because it makes me feel better.

Ah well... Just some potential food for thought.

------
Top19
One suggestion might be to just work 35 hours a week at a business you find
“passable”. The other 35 hours can be dedicated to something that really makes
a difference. In fact it’s really hard to find a job that does serious good.
Good agencies throughout the world are so low on funds they need volunteers,
not workers for the time being.

Since you hate advertising, a not-immediately similar path might be anti-
corruption. These guys advertised for help from data scientists a while ago on
HN: [https://www.occrp.org/](https://www.occrp.org/)

Also Open-EMR, which is a free end-end software for hospitals is also an
option. By implementing this software, hospitals save immediately $1 M+
compared to systems like Center or Epic, it’s almost comical. There are lots
of statistical packages, so your help could be useful there: www.opem-emr.org

~~~
throwawaybs
I'd be up for volunteering. I'm not quite sure how to find a good group to
volunteer for.

Occrp looks interesting, but it looks working there involves going to Kosovo.
Open-emr looks potentially interesting, but I'm not sure how much I care about
hospitals being able to make more money. I'm not convinced electronic medical
record are actually a good idea.

~~~
pkalinowski
This is the project I like, open source hospital software for poor countries:
[http://hospitalrun.io/](http://hospitalrun.io/)

I see it that way that you can make healthcare more efficient with low risk of
fraud (there is no money involved directly here).

------
acrooks
I think that the companies delivering the most raw value to the world are the
ones that fly under the radar. The 100 person software company that builds a
properly meaningful product isn't making the news because it isn't sexy, or
because it isn't generating huge cash (like we see in fintech or advertising
or social media). And 100 person companies aren't hiring a ton, so you don't
always see them on job boards. So I think it is partly a matter of looking
really hard, jumping on the perfect opportunity, and staying a while.

The company I work for today builds software for the marine shipping industry
that makes people better at their jobs, and cargo ships more fuel efficient. I
feel like the work that I do has a legitimate positive impact on the world.
Purely because of the work I have done on one of our products, I will forever
be carbon positive. I deeply care about the environment so that means a lot to
me. Send me an email (profile) if that interests you.

------
brad0
There’s a lot of “I don’t want X” in your text but no “this is what I believe
in”. This is the core of your issue.

If you don’t have an ideal you work toward then you will always end up hating
your job.

You sound like a smart guy, you just need to take some time and work out what
your ideal world would be. When you know what that ideal is then work toward
it every single day of your life.

EDIT

I’m guessing you’re someone who has looked to others to make decisions for you
from the tone of your text.

You need to start putting faith in your own actions and needs, rather than
getting advice from others.

------
joeld42
Don't count on work to be meaningful. You might find it, you might not, but so
much in the world of work is outside your control. You're more than your job,
find meaning elsewhere: in making art, activism, politics, altruism, building
something, family, whatever feels meaningful to you. Let your work support
that and don't let it define you. Eventually these may align and your passion
and your work will become the same but you can't make that happen.

------
phugoid
I work in aviation safety/training. The most meaningful work I've done is
developing code for flight simulators, so that pilots can learn how to handle
real-world problems. Sometimes that means modeling data from flight recorder
boxes, which is a special treat.

Reading through the list of things you don't like, one thing they have in
common is being software-only. Hardware products have a huge impact on
people's safety and well-being that might inspire you. Aviation, robotics,
medicine, even manufacturing.

~~~
hugocaracoll
The change from software-only to hardware can have a great impact. That's a
very interesting observation of yours.

------
Jedd
> I don't want to work in health, because the government and insurance have
> fucked up the healthcare system ...

Eloquently put, but you don't mention where you live (ie. which government
this is). Generally people that don't say where they are when asking these
kinds of questions are in the USA - a fair assumption, I'm sure, as 5% of the
world lives there.

Anyway, consider that 'health' is big - really big - and isn't just the bits
you've seen. I'm confident there are some good efforts being made under that
banner domestically that may fit your criteria. Further, if 'the government
has fucked things up' maybe consider relocating to a place where things aren't
quite so regrettable -- lots of (perhaps 'every other) countries have better
health systems than the USA. Useful if it's an area you're genuinely
interested in _but for_ local government (mis)management.

------
bevan
Research Effective Altruism and check out the 80,000 hours job board.

[https://80000hours.org/job-board/](https://80000hours.org/job-board/)

------
blubb-fish
I absolutely second your sentiment - 100%. Of course, this is not going to
resonate well in a forum where the majority is invested one way or another in
startups producing what I would also refer to as bullshit.

Defining the term bullshit is a bit difficult though in this context. But one
definitely can categorize a product or a project into "attempting to improve
society and environment" and into "creating incentives to consume more".

I think ML and data science driven political and legal investigations is an
interesting field. The only downside is that companies or organisations in
those areas usually pay less.

But I would love to do work for Greenpeace or Human Rights Watch or similar
projects as opposed to my IT position in ad industry. But it feels odd to
voluntarily accept a low wage for that. I guess I will give it a try sooner or
later - at least for a couple of months.

------
16961714b
This might sound cheesy, but first of all: Know yourself.

\- What are your values?

\- What do you stand for?

\- What do you want in work and life?

A design thinking approach, how to find a meaning in your work (and life) is
through a simple 3 step process, provided by Burnett and Evans
([http://designingyour.life/](http://designingyour.life/) or
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SemHh0n19LA](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SemHh0n19LA)):

1\. Get curious

2\. Talk to people

3\. Try stuff

Simple as that...

Nevertheless, I think that work defines us and it becomes our identity (e.g.
Joseph the Carpenter, Bob the Builder), but at the same time there is so much
more in you than just work. From what you are writing, I could identify what
you don’t stand for and don’t want :-) this realization is a good starting
point. However, now is the time to get curious, observe, reflect and start
choosing your battles wisely, because you might wake up one day and realize
that all you have been doing is wasting your time and energy on fights you
didn’t actually care about that much… And this is precisely why it helps to
know yourself, know your values, what you stand for, your talents and
strengths, and maybe even your vision or dreams of how would you like to live
in the future, and how would you like the world to look like in the future…
Knowing this, I think, would allow you to focus your energy on something that
is meaningful for you. Because meaning exists only in your head. So whatever
we do, whatever happens in the world or the universe is meaningless per se.
The meaning is interpretative. You create and give meaning to whatever you do,
or whatever happens to you or in the world.

> but I want to know I'm doing something for a good purpose.

I think, you can never know in advance whether the purpose turns out to be
“good” or “bad”, here is a little illustration of that :-)
[https://www.conures.net/stories/horse.shtml](https://www.conures.net/stories/horse.shtml)

------
fecak
1\. Identify causes that truly interest you.

2\. Make yourself look like a strong candidate on paper.

3\. Search for companies that are focused on the causes you care about.

4\. Reach out directly to the appropriate individuals at those companies.
Don't pay any attention as to whether or not they are hiring.

5\. In your approach, briefly mention your qualifications but also your
interest in the organization's mission. Mention the latter first. Make it
clear to the recipient that your message was written exclusively for this
organization.

------
NumberCruncher
Get married and have children. Make them happy and let them grow to happy
adults. Or adopt children who weren't lucky enough to born in a happy family.

Start an own company, treat and pay your employees well that they can provide
a happy and secure life to their children.

~~~
bdcravens
It's almost like you can derive joy outside of the characters you punch into
an editor :-)

~~~
NumberCruncher
Just imagine you are sitting on a lonely island till the end of your life,
alone. What would you do? Punching characters into the editor or listening to
the birds and waterfalls?

Does punching characters into the editor make more sense if you are not
sitting on a lonely island alone, as long as it pays the bills? Do your
friends, spouse, children, humanity like you less, if you hit the wrong
characters?

------
hw
As others have and would point out, going out on your own and doing something
you _want_ to do will be one of the real ways to work on what you want to work
on, unless you're not keen on the overhead that comes with entrepreneurship.

It'll take time to find a company that both exudes the same values as you and
is in a domain that you enjoy working with. More often than not you get one
but not the other.

Usually what I would do when evaluating a company, is ask if I'd ever want to
spend my weekends contracting / part-timing / volunteering for that company.
If you have a M-F 9-5 job and are looking forward to the weekend with that
company, then it's a good step in the right direction.

Then meet with the team and talk to their employees both while on an interview
or if you can get one or more of them out on an informal coffee or meal to
talk it would help too. Plenty of times interviews are too official, too rigid
and pre-meditated to truly gauge the culture of the company/team.

You might end up jumping around a few times before you find something you
like, but the important thing is you find something you like, instead of
droning on at a big tech company or startup where you reap the benefits
financially but suffer emotionally and psychologically.

------
sebg
1) Go to your local job board. Here in the us, I recommend indeed.com or
[https://angel.co/jobs](https://angel.co/jobs)

2) For your local and particular interest get a list of potential jobs

3) Do a pairwise comparison between first two jobs. For these two jobs and
only these two jobs, which you would prefer to do in your current state.
Ignore qualifications or everything else, if you were given the choice of
starting only one of those two jobs tomorrow, which would you choose.

4) Then do a pairwise comparison between second two jobs

5) Keep doing this for at least 10 minutes

6) Now you have a list of potentially attractive jobs for you.

7) For this list you compiled, do this process again.

8) Then once you've made it through all of those, do it once more.

9) By the third time, you will have chosen some jobs 3 times over other jobs.
So you're task now is to look deeply at all of these jobs that won 3 times and
try to figure out what is in common between all of them.

10) Once you have some of those clues, go back to step 2 and try searching for
more jobs that have those key-words and/or criteria you found in step 9.

What you are doing here is to force some sort of revealed preferences for your
self based on currently available jobs. You aren't trying to solve the "what
you should do next", you are trying to solve the what interests me enough that
I would do it over something else. With enough research you'll have a few more
ideas of what roads you should be exploring.

~~~
throwawaybs
I've been going there, and thinking I want to work for any of these companies.

------
rl3
You sound like quality founder material. I mean that: a lot of good innovation
comes from people who simply loathe how something is currently done and want
to improve the situation by doing it right.

Have you thought about starting your own business? It doesn't necessarily have
to be a startup; lifestyle businesses are just as valid a path. That said,
startups do unfortunately require you to drink your own Kool-Aid to a degree.
They do not however require you to foist bullshit upon your employees, which
most founders unfortunately do anyways.

Of course, founding isn't for everyone. It's hard, and there's a lot less
guarantees involved than working for someone else. It may not even be a
possibility given your current life situation, I don't know.

------
bdcravens
> I'm sick of working with advertising-based businesses ... I'm also totally
> sick of the ideological crap at lots of startups. I don't want to have to
> drink the kool-aid. Neither do I want to work for some large corporate
> machine.

Work in health care. Lot of work there building apps that support clinical
trials, etc. Probably a lot of ways you could apply your data scientist hat.

Work for a small company that creates a real product or service. That means
you might have to look outside of the typical startup world and may lose all
the coolness that goes with, but it sounds like you're over all that anyway.

Do your own thing. Training, consulting, etc. I'm sure you have an idea
burning in your mind, like we all do.

------
prosthetics
What about designing software for prosthetics? Seems like that could make a
huge difference in people's quality of life.

~~~
vassilevsky
Prosthetics and implants are the coolest shit

------
rvijapurapu
I moved from being in a software only world where I couldn't see the benefit
of my work, to one where I see my work being used on a daily basis. I find the
sense of helping people and improving their lives oddly satisfying.

I do acknowledge working with non-technie teams is frustrating to start with,
but once you bring them to learn the benefits it becomes pleasurable.

------
Mz
_I want there to be real values behind what I 'm working on that I can believe
in. Despite claims to contrary, I find the entire business culture rotten to
the core. What should I do?_

Have you considered seeking employment with organizations working in extremely
distressed parts of the world, like refugee camps?

------
framebit
I understand you're asking about meaningful _work_, but there's more to life
than work. Sometimes it's good enough to have a day job that doesn't suck and
find your meaning outside of your work: faith, family, art, volunteering, etc.

------
uoaei
"Meaningful", by itself, doesn't mean anything, because meaning is entirely
subjective.

You will first have to identify what really makes you tick, grinds your gears,
revs your engine, and whatever other mechanical analogies seem appropriate.
This requires a lot of introspection.

Look around you. What upsets you? What do you consider among the most pressing
issues of our time? Once you've done that (think a timescale of weeks, not
hours), start hunting for groups at home and abroad who are trying to rectify
those things, and who are doing so in ways that you feel are effective.

You can have a diverse set of concerns, which means that finding a relevant
project is easier.

------
hauget
"The worthwhile problems are the ones you can really solve or help solve, the
ones you can really contribute something to.... No problem is too small or too
trivial if we can really do something about it.” - Richard Feynman

I could give you ideas on how you could change people's lives by volunteering
to teach at places like [http://shhkids.org/](http://shhkids.org/) but I
won't. What you should do though, is find something where you can cause
impact, no matter how small, and then work your way up from there towards
something that gives value and happiness to YOUR LIFE.

------
itamarst
Plenty of companies doing useful things. E.g. just from reading their website
these people seem pretty cool:
[https://www.remix.com/](https://www.remix.com/)

------
sandGorgon
Work on privacy enhancing block hain. Work on stuff like Monero. Couple of
reasons - it is well within your ideological beliefs, it's technically super
challenging, and you can make gazillions of money

------
lvbu
Ok my thoughts 1) Pick up a problem that is worth working on. Like healthcare,
nature conservation, poverty reduction 2) Find a company that is working on
this 3) Talk to them 4) Work with them

------
tixocloud
Our world needs real leaders to start companies that do make a difference and
you might very well be one of them. You've got an incredible skillset as a
software engineer and a data scientist - I've a similar background as well and
I'm interested to see how we can pit our brains to try and solve problems for
the needy. A belief I've held is that education has the ability to transform
lives. Maybe this is something you'd be interested in as well?

------
jey
> I'm also totally sick of the ideological crap at lots of startups. I don't
> want to have to drink the kool-aid.

I don't mean to threadjack, but what are some examples of this?

~~~
throwawaybs
The typical is we are the best and we are changing the world for the better.
If you make critical comments, you get pulled aside and told that criticism is
frowned upon. The general expectation that employees be true believers while
the founders are just in it for the money. The ideological belief that
entrepreneurship is the solution to the world's ills.

Basically, I'd say the TED ideology. Look, tech is amazing, and it can all the
solve all the worlds problems. Yet, beneath the veneer it is just
propagandizing the power and wealth of 'divine' founders.

I'm also sick of startups talking how they are doing good for the world, when
it turns out they are actually serving ads. When you look at the ads, the ads
are often dishonest, unethical, and encourage behavior not in the interest of
the viewer or broader society.

This can all be compounded by the creation of 'reality distortion fields' by
dishonest founders. This can be compounded by the whole game of
misrepresenting the value of stock option. Then, this is compounded by the
naive belief in stock options. Further, I object cult-like devotion to the
startup cult over strong moral values.

~~~
pcmaffey
The irony here is that many of the responses in this thread are pushing you to
start your own thing and change the world in a way you care about... which is
pretty much the origin of these cult mentalities you're trying to get away
from.

It's a real tough challenge to go from strong founding values and vision to
then having to promote those values in a way that keeps your business alive.
In fact, it's antithetical to the dominant business model of the internet.

My suggestion: focus first on the business model you want to operate with. How
do you want to exchange with the world? As a non-profit? As a VC funded
startup? A private company bootstrapped on revenue? A large public company? A
consultancy? Making royalties on IP? Investing? A small local business?

IMO you'll find more relevant people and opportunities that share your value
system this way.

------
RomanPushkin
How about your own non-profit? I founded one. Actually, not non-profit at the
moment, but I was lucky to win a grant of $25K from one non-profit accelerator
(they scammed me and didn't pay at the end). But it's kind of fun to do it if
you're willing to spend your weekends on something.

There are plenty of other non-profits, but they usually don't pay good enough
to even cover the rent in SFBA. So IMO it's better to play your own game if
you have a plan.

------
BurritoAlPastor
I'm on the same page as you about advertising, and that really eliminates a
lot of companies. But I would encourage you to reconsider your reluctance to
work in any part of the healthcare sector. I work for a company that provides
medical treatment programs, and I feel great about what I do; there's room to
work in health care without being part of the insurance complex. (Although
insurers are still how you get paid.)

------
SycamoreSavage
Would you be interested in co-founding a startup with me? I currently work in
fashion and feel the same disgust/dissatisfaction with my current business as
you've described with yours. I want to build an industry-wide platform which
will help clothing companies reduce waste as well as promoting (smaller)
companies who are already working to do this.

~~~
JSONwebtoken
You want to build or you want your co-founder to build while you do
"marketing"?

~~~
SycamoreSavage
I'm not a programmer. The last time I did anything technical was about 20
years ago, when I taught myself basic HTML in order to make a fancy Angelfire
website for my 13 year-old musings. Needless to say, that is not the career
path I followed. That being said, I am willing to learn, but my efforts would
probably be best used establishing connections throughout the various
companies, factories and contractors who would need to be onboard in order for
this to actually work. So yes, I am looking for a technical co-founder, one
who actually cares about making a difference in the world. I'm not desperate,
my husband is a test manager and has plenty of contacts. I just saw the
posters comments and felt that we are in the same mindset, which is crucial
for co-founders.

------
jlehman
Meaningful work has less to do with the company or job than the person doing
it and his/her set of values—“real values” and “good purposes” describe an
infinite set of potential jobs/companies. If you cannot find meaningful work,
perhaps the problem is that your values are poorly defined. I’d suggest
focusing on that part of the equation first.

------
chrisabrams
I advise a few companies that are using data to truly make the world a better,
smarter place. Feel free to send an email: chris [at] abrams.ventures

Also, my wife works at Engima if you want an intro:
[https://www.enigma.com/](https://www.enigma.com/)

------
crispinb
What an excellent question. Possibly one I should have asked years ago, but
instead I largely turned my back on the world of work in disgust - not a
course of action I would recommend!

Anyway, there's a slew of helpful and positive answers here and I wish you
luck in making use of them.

------
m0dE
Think of who you needed the most during the hardest time of your life, and be
that person

------
hectcastro
Perhaps you might be interested in working at a B Corporation:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benefit_corporation](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benefit_corporation)

------
keeptrying
Self driving cars are fun. Immediate feedback on code on car after down ramp
up.

------
temp-defualt
Meaningful hmmm... I started teaching in a high school once a week (cyber)
it’s meaningful and really fun ! Try the goverment as well you can really make
a difference if you can handle the amazing slow speed

------
mrburton
Find someone who’s vision is inline with what you want.

What type of work do you like? What type of business would you like to build?

Fuck it, what’s your feeling on building solutions for people just like you?
That’s what I’m looking to do.

~~~
throwawaybs
I want stronger community and trust between people. I don't want to just build
something for individuals. I want to transform overall society.

~~~
toomuchtodo
[https://www.sundayassembly.com/](https://www.sundayassembly.com/) might have
opportunities that would fulfill those desires.

------
vfulco
Love the truth seeking of your inquiry. Hope you find your work nirvana.

------
notyourwork
What do you do that no one pays you to do? Answer that than apply software
engineering to it. If there's a company try to work for them, if not start a
new company. That's my advice.

------
j45
You may find some interest working in the social enterprise / social
innovation space with your skillset and desire to connect a passion and
purpose.

------
nikanj
I'd be very surprised if you manage to find a sector with a better "good" vs
"corrupted" ratio than health.

------
aiNohY6g
Meaning is subjective. It's hard to try to answer here. Please msg me on
torchat (ID:fp5gkjilpvllfi6z) within 48 hours.

------
adammichaelc
Come work with us.
[https://www.freeplayapp.com/](https://www.freeplayapp.com/)

We want to take all of the advances in psychology and ML, and instead of
applying it to the problem of getting people to click on ads, we want to
persuade people to have a fun exercise that improves their life.

Email me. adam@freeplay-app.com

------
mathgenius
You can always donate the money you make. This can bring alot of meaning to
what you do.

------
nether
I think transport companies are doing largely beneficial work. They're making
cars, airplanes, spacecraft safer and more efficient. This was my former
field, and it was great to hear a story of how one customer used our product
to rescue family members from a volcano, or how people just found them safe
and useful. Like it was clear that what we made actually added
enjoyment/utility to their lives. You just don't hear people say things like
"thank god for Facebook" like they do about their cars, or a good rice cooker.
Agriculture has potential too. FarmLogs is helping farmers grow more
efficiently, competing against the goliath Climate Corporation (Monsanto).
Weather tech - for startups there's Dark Sky and ClimaCell, of course there
are the big players like Weather Channel and NOAA. FlexPort has massive
potential in overhauling global freight.

I think in tech, meaningfulness is inversely correlated with sexiness at this
point. Just focusing on industries with _physical goods_ will yield markets
that have less frivolity and pointlessness than say, social media.

