
Nintendo Switch is not USB-C compliant - lambada
https://plus.google.com/102612254593917101378/posts/2CUPZ5yVTRT
======
zdw
In watching the evolution of USB-C over the last few years, it seems like it's
extremely hard to implement correctly with the huge number of modes, alternate
modes, and power delivery in the spec.

When you connect two USB-C devices today, you have almost no idea what is
actually going to happen, which device is the master, and which way power will
flow.

While having one connector and cable type for everything seems like it would
be a good idea, in practice it's turning out to be a giant mess. Maybe it'll
clear up in a few years, but given the race to the bottom in price and quality
in the accessory market, this seems doubtful.

~~~
dmoy
I partly agree that it's a bit harder than before. But a lot of the faulty
devices we're seeing are just straight up using an incorrect resistor value or
similar, and apparently released to the public without proper testing.

Maybe that's on USB spec people for not having good material, but on the other
hand maybe that's on the manufacturers for not hiring EEs who can actually
read a damn spec sheet properly...

~~~
ljm
Is it really that simple? Just changing a resistor value? I got an XPS 13 for
work, it’s all USB-C, and the versatility of the port is fantastic (doesn’t
matter which port I plug into, it still charges, so I don’t have to wrap the
power cable around the back of the machine or sit in a weird position to keep
some slack in the wire). However, I took it to the office and naturally I
plugged my power adapter into one port. I then plugged in the monitor (also
USB-C, delivering power), and the two ports cancelled themselves out and
confused the OS. Windows thought I was charging the laptop yet it also said
the battery was depleting. They were negating each other and the battery loss
continued as it would with no power connected.

It makes sense for a monitor to power the laptop because it’s mains connected.
But then you have one of those classic programming problems: if there are
multiple inputs providing the same thing which do you consider the source of
truth?

~~~
criddell
They could always ask the user if they are that confused then remember the
answer so they don't have to ask again.

~~~
ljm
Can you imagine a typical laptop user who assumes everything 'just works'
(like me, by virtue of thinking I need to power my laptop while attaching a
powered monitor) seeing a prompt in the OS about which thing should provide
power and which should either reject it or use it to charge a battery?

~~~
acct1771
Can you imagine someone not understanding a clearly worded UI that they use to
do the things they have to do to function in society?

------
Klathmon
Why does USB-C have such terrible failure modes? I'm sure that the people
behind it are bright engineers, so why do I have a fear unlike anything I've
ever felt when buying a USB-C cable or charger or device?

Is this just a "tragedy of the commons" where every manufacturer expects the
others to follow the spec so that they can skimp, or is there some kind of
fundamental flaw in the USB-C spec that is making it so seemingly dangerous
and difficult to use correctly?

~~~
delecti
Prior to USB-PD, USB maxed out at 4.5W, and that was a later addition,
originally it maxed out at 2.5W. The USB-PW spec allows for 100W power
transfer. There are far more modes in USB-C/PW, and they're _much_ higher
energy. If all you ever need to deal with is 5V and 0.1-0.9A then there's a
much narrower range of failure states.

~~~
spookthesunset
What voltage is the 100W coming through at? If it is low voltage, that is
gonna be a really beefy cable... At 12V that is more than 8 amps. 5v is 20
amps. That is a lot of current to send over a typical USB cable...

~~~
bri3d
Profile 5 is 20V@5A

~~~
gargravarr
Suffice to say, this makes me very hesitant to connect a USB-C phone (which I
don't have, thankfully) to a laptop USB-C charger, because even though they
/should/ negotiate the correct voltage, the idea of a bug in the
implementation causing the charger to fry my phone, perhaps even setting it on
fire in the process, isn't worth the risk.

As others note, the poor implementations wind up causing us to use only the
adapters shipped with the device in the first place, which is actually a worse
situation than with standard USB - right now, I know that I can plug a device
into any USB charger and get 5 volts. Amperage may vary considerably, but
unless the adapter is a real lemon (and yes, I know those exist), it's not
going to kill my phone or burn my house down if I don't get the planetary
alignment of adapter, cable and device right.

------
013a
While this is more of an interesting fact than anything: The Nintendo Switch
website [1] does not advertise that the Switch has a USB-C port. It has HDMI
and USB 2.0 on the dock... but no USB-C anywhere.

[1] [https://www.nintendo.com/switch/features/tech-
specs/](https://www.nintendo.com/switch/features/tech-specs/)

~~~
Klathmon
Then why did they use the port? I'm guessing it's the obvious answer of "it
was cheaper".

As much as it pains me to say it, a "pay us to use the port shape" group like
HDMI that will threaten litigation unless you pay them to use the port would
probably have prevented this kind of thing from being as widespread with USB-C
as it is. While just about everyone doesn't want that to be the case (myself
included), I don't see any other way of aligning incentives to make it
_harder_ to use the port/spec incorrectly than it is to make it correctly.

~~~
shmerl
They should stop using HDMI and switch to DisplayPort.

~~~
theclaw
Fun fact: the Switch does output a flavor of DisplayPort to the dock, which
converts it to HDMI using a Megachips STDP2550 MyDP-HDMI converter for output
to TVs[0]

[0] [https://www.tweaktown.com/news/56650/switch-dock-uses-
mobili...](https://www.tweaktown.com/news/56650/switch-dock-uses-mobility-
displayport-hdmi-converter/index.html)

~~~
shmerl
Hm, so actual Switch alone does output in proper DisplayPort (as MyDP)?

------
e1ven
I love the idea of USB-C - Being able to have one cable which can do
everything is great.

But I've become very leery about actually trusting it in practice - There are
so many examples of bad cables, or devices which don't _quite_ follow the
specification, causing things to break badly.

If you end up having to follow a defacto "Only use 1st party tools" rule for
safety reasons, I'd almost rather manufacturers went back to proprietary
connectors. Those aren't inter-operable, but at least they don't pretend to be
and risk me breaking everything.

~~~
lbotos
My favorite is I have an HP Envy USB-C monitor to use with my Macbook, and
using the HP factory supplied cable, every time I power it on I get a warning
that I should use an "official HP USB-C cable". It's literally the one
straight from the box!

~~~
LanceH
My macbook won't wake up my usb-c monitors consistently. I have tried 8 cables
at this point. I have to unplug the cable and plug it back in.

I also refuses to mount my phone straight usb-c, and the _known_ workaround is
to go usbc -> a -> c.

At this point in my relationship with Apple, I can only assume this is
deliberate.

~~~
indecisive_user
So _that's_ why my monitor doesn't wake up.

I got the new xps13, it only has thunderbolt/USBc-C ports and it's pretty much
50/50 whether my external monitor will wake up.

I figured it was the cable and was about to buy another one but you saved me
the trouble.

I also got a hootoo adapter that's supposed to support power delivery but that
hasn't worked either :/

~~~
olyjohn
This isn't just a problem with USB-C. There are also tons of video adapters on
the market that say they support 4k, but really don't. We have grips of
2560x1440 monitors at work, and they had tons of issues like this where the
monitors may or may not wake up, may handle the native res for a while, then
power down or switch back to 1080p. The only consistent fix for them has been
to buy one particular brand of adapter that we found works and making sure
it's active. So I guess what I'm saying is, display tech has already been
having issues for a long time with crappy components, and USB-C is just adding
one problem into the mix now.

------
cavanasm
Can the title be changed to note that this is from 2017? It's new to me, so I
assumed it was recent (but it was also posted on Google+....).

~~~
esnard
Some consoles are getting bricked since the latest Switch update because of
this problem, that's why it gained visibility.

~~~
Someone1234
More info on that here:

[https://www.reddit.com/r/NintendoSwitch/comments/86wu9t/psa_...](https://www.reddit.com/r/NintendoSwitch/comments/86wu9t/psa_if_youre_using_a_third_party_dock_stop/)

Both the update and third party accessories seem implicated to a degree.

~~~
jakebasile
It's absolutely insane that Nintendo still has no way to backup saves in the
event of console failure. This compounds the already ridiculous situation
where you risk bricking the console when you plug it in to a charger.

------
kbenson
_However, because it was USB-C compliant (followed the darn spec) and robustly
engineered, it will work with the Switch even though it came out nearly two
years before the Switch was released. (Hooray!) Innergie had the foresight to
add 15v as an "optional and extra" voltage level and now it reaps the rewards.
(It also has $1mil in connected device insurance, so I can recommend it.)_

I think maybe I just found a new preferred provider of cables and chargers.

------
parliament32
Unrelated, but I really wish G+ posts were a bit wider. They look great on
mobile but reading a "card" on a laptop screen is insane.

~~~
kalleboo
Reader Mode seems to work fine to reformat the page

------
BluSyn
In case others are looking for something similar, I've had great success using
Anker's 20100mAh USB-C portable battery to charge my Switch on the go. It's
the only USB-C battery I've tried that actually works with the Nintendo
Switch.

Link: [https://www.amazon.com/Anker-PowerCore-Ultra-High-
Capacity-P...](https://www.amazon.com/Anker-PowerCore-Ultra-High-Capacity-
Portable/dp/B014ZO46LK/)

It also gets me a full recharge of my 15" USB-C MBP (though you can't use the
MBP and charge at the same time, it takes a while).

~~~
SrslyJosh
I've got the same battery, bought ~2 years ago. Seems to work fine with my
Switch and an Anker-brand USB A-to-C cable.

My 40W Anker PowerPort wall-charger also works.

Now I'm a bit worried about trying anything else, though. o_O

------
mavdi
Well this is exactly what I was wondering last week after noticing the USB-C
port on the switch dock is labelled "Power Adapter". I thought it was a little
off that there is no mention of USB-C, either not to confuse the users or
perhaps because they didn't have much confidence in their hardware compliance.

------
chx
In my humble opinion, the greatest sin of the USB C standard is the lack of
introspection. Given the huge amount of possibilities, it should be possible
to question a USB C socket with a cheap device what Alt modes it is capable
of, what device roles it is capable of, what USB PD it supports etc.

~~~
jws
One out of three: This device will show you what power deliver modes are
available, request the most it can get, and make that available on terminals.

[https://www.tindie.com/products/ReclaimerLabs/usb-c-
explorer...](https://www.tindie.com/products/ReclaimerLabs/usb-c-explorer/)

(Also, if you didn't know about _tindie.com_ , and you are a certain sort of
person, then I apologize for consuming the next couple hours of your day.)

~~~
chx
That's 79 dollars. I said cheap :) 20 bucks is realistic, even if it's just
the hardware and needs a phone or even a laptop to be plugged into. Even a
laptop is reasonable.

------
setgree
I can't make heads or tails of the technical details of this, but I think it's
fair to start with the prior that Nintendo doesn't care too much about non-
proprietary formats/interoperability/etc. I developed this impression when the
Gamecube came out -- weird minidisks when Sony had already switched over to
CDs and then DVDs, no ability to play external media, an online community that
seemed pretty half-baked.

I haven't played videogames regularly for a decade though so perhaps things
have changed. I now use a PS4 controller to play some games on my computer,
and it's really nice, integrates naturally.

~~~
taternuts
I hadn't played video games for close to a decade before I kind of randomly
bought a switch, and it's actually got me back into gaming. Nintendo has kind
of always done their own thing though, sometimes for better, sometimes for
worse.

------
joecool1029
I have a feeling I'll be buying one of those fancy USB-C amperage/voltage
meters. I hit issues with the charging spec on a GPD Pocket (tiny laptop). Its
maximum supported charging voltage is 12V, which is now optional in the USB-PD
2.0 standard. So most chargers I see now are 5V/9V/15V

Macbook charger for instance is missing the 12V, so it charges slow off that
charger since it ignores the 15V rail. Has to fall back to 5V or 9V in
theory...

------
Reason077
My Apple USB-C charger and cable (which came with my 2017 MacBook Pro) work
fine to charge my Switch. No crashes here.

~~~
bluedino
Apple's USB-C chargers skirt around some standards, as well.

~~~
gumby
Can you say more? Thanks.

~~~
bluedino
Apple uses a non-standard 14.5V @ 2A PDO unit in the smaller MacBook charger,
they also have some protocol-level 'quirks'.

[https://plus.google.com/102612254593917101378/posts/ftb7qCZf...](https://plus.google.com/102612254593917101378/posts/ftb7qCZfPQf)

~~~
gumby
That's quite interesting, as in the last 20 years that I've been dealing with
Apple hardware they have typically been excessively _strict_ with hardware
spec conformance (not especially "liberal in what they will accept"). They of
course had plenty of in-house stuff (adb, AUI etc) back in the pre-jobs-
departure and pre-jobs-return eras, but that was often because no standard
existed at all.

I wonder if something has changed or if this is an outlier, or perhaps it's
just my sampling (which of course is hardly enormous) has simply entirely
fallen in a pool of strictly conforming equipment. I can certainly believe the
last possibility.

------
_bxg1
Presumably this investigation was prompted by the Nyko dock catastrophe.

I'm a software guy; what do these revelations imply about which other
accessories may or may not be unsafe to use, whether they work or not? In
particular, third-party charging cables. My girlfriend uses her MacBook
charger to charge her Switch sometimes, and now I'm worried it could brick it
one day.

~~~
caltelt
I find it absolutely mindboggling that Switch's are bricking when 3rd party
accessories are plugged in isn't being treated as a bigger issue. Everything
I've heard is that the Nyko dock is at fault, but why the hell aren't people
mad at Nintendo? Then again, I haven't followed it very closely, maybe people
are? All I've read is how the dock is bad, and nothing about the Switch's
apparent fragility.

~~~
jldugger
People are somewhat mad, but Nintendo's only recently bothered adopting
anything akin to industry standards around power adaptors. Even the 3DS is
proprietary, and the Switch dock itself is some voodoo magic with a chip
inside.

USB C itself has been sort of a minefield of adaptors getting the spec wrong,
so I doubt anyone is surprised that docks are buggy and even capable of
damaging parts.

------
holtalanm
the switch is advertised to only work with official nintendo cables and
accessories. Anything else and you're just risking damage to your
console/tablet/thingy.

I don't think they have ever claimed that their USB-C connectors were
compliant with the spec.

~~~
gambiting
What they claimed is almost irellevant - the device bears USB-C logo and has a
USB-C port - so plugging a USB-C device into that port should in the worst
possible case result in a system message "sorry, this device is not
supported", not brick the device! There's a reason why you can't use a USB-A
cable in your device to carry 220V - because someone _will_ plug it into a
normal USB-A socket and burn their computer down. If both sides of the
connection have the official USB logo, then connecting them together should
_never_ result in either device becoming damaged.

~~~
starmftronajoll
The Switch has many logos on it, but a USB-C logo is not one of them. Nintendo
does not use the term "USB-C" in its literature for the Switch.

~~~
stordoff
Nintendo of America may not, but Nintendo UK and Japan both refer to it as a
"USB Type-C terminal"

UK: [https://www.nintendo.co.uk/Nintendo-
Switch/Specifications/Sp...](https://www.nintendo.co.uk/Nintendo-
Switch/Specifications/Specifications-1176277.html#1)

JP:
[https://www.nintendo.co.jp/hardware/switch/specs/](https://www.nintendo.co.jp/hardware/switch/specs/)

~~~
starmftronajoll
I stand corrected. Good catch.

------
simias
I'm not sure I buy the vendor lock-in thing, if that was the core motivation
why not at least bother to use a custom USB-C connector? This way you wouldn't
have to deal with the reports of users plugging other USB-C peripherals and
getting crashes.

Seems more likely what whoever implemented that part of the Switch did a poor
job. Was it even done in-house or did they contract a 3rd party to hack it?

------
phjesusthatguy3
My son just bought himself a Switch, and TBH this isn't surprising at all.
What _is_ surprising is that Nintendo didn't modify the port so that a USB-C
cable wouldn't fit. I don't think it's advertised as being a USB-C port,
though.

The specs page[0] says there are three USB 2.0 ports and a power port (which,
by looking at it, uses the same connector as USB-C).

[0][https://www.nintendo.com/switch/features/tech-
specs/](https://www.nintendo.com/switch/features/tech-specs/)

------
kevindqc
Why not require some kind of USB-C compatibility details on all USB-C related
products? So you know if you use the device/cable what will actually work/not
work?

------
smaili
On a related note, what are some reputable brands for USB-C adapters that
actually do have proper implementation and quality assurance? Anker? UPTab?
Belkin?

~~~
Tijdreiziger
Check out [https://usbccompliant.com/](https://usbccompliant.com/)

~~~
petecox
Cheers, presumably the AC wall plugs have international equivalents for the
non-US market?

(i.e. their 'compliance' has been tested on 240V scenarios)

~~~
Tijdreiziger
Actually, I don't think so. These have been tested by one Google engineer, and
he lives in the US.

------
carc1n0gen
I thought type-c was just the shape, while usb 3.1 and 3.1 gen 2, or
thunderbolt 3 being the common specs that usually carry this shape.

Or is it more complicated than this?

~~~
LeoPanthera
Type-C can carry things that are not USB, that's the problem. USB-PD can't be
carried over non-C connectors.

~~~
kalleboo
USB-PD is still allowed on classic USB-A/B ports

------
russellbeattie
USB-C peripheral makers desperately need to agree on a color/marking scheme
for the devices and specifically the cables. Right now it's chaos. Red, blue,
green, black, ABCD, 1234, square, circle, triangle, cross... Whatever. Just
make it so users can tell what's going on.

------
Fej
I was under the impression that some of the issues with third-party adapters
were caused by insufficient tolerances, causing damage to the type-C
connector. In addition to the non-compliance.

------
pbhjpbhj
Maybe it's USB-C because of future usage requirements, that they envisioned
they might need USB-C to interface with attachments (VR headset? New GB/DS
generation?).

------
CaliforniaKarl
I’m curious, how many of the issues enumerated could be fixed by a firmware
upgrade? Personally, I wouldn’t be too surprised if the dock isn’t upgradeable
at all.

------
saudioger
huh, I thought Plus was dead

------
ebbv
How is this at all surprising? Controlling what third parties are allowed to
make accessories and games has been part of Nintendo's business model since
the 80s. They truly believe (and you can argue this if you want) that the
Nintendo Seal of Quality is part of their success.

~~~
stordoff
Given the video game crash of the early 80s, it's entirely likely that the
Seal (or at least the principles behind it) was part of Nintendo's earlier
successes. Whether it's still relevant today is questionable, but I wouldn't
write it off.

~~~
vlunkr
Also, every other console may not have an official "Seal", but they all have
the same process. Nintendo created that idea when anyone could release games
for consoles without the console manufacturer approving or even knowing about
it. I can't just make an Xbox 1 game and release it legally either. Blaming
this on the Seal is completely misunderstanding the context.

------
iamjk
I was just amazed that a google plus post got so high on hn.

------
logfromblammo
Perhaps if Nintendo had boarded the standardized-connectors train at the
terminal, rather than just hopping on at the last station, they would have
been more familiar by now with the need to read and follow all the rules of
the standard.

