

Big Brotheresque App Kills Your Automotive Anonymity - bryanlarsen
http://www.wired.com/autopia/2010/12/new-app-marks-the-end-of-automotive-anonymity/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+wired%2Findex+%28Wired%3A+Index+3+%28Top+Stories+2%29%29&utm_content=Google+Reader

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DanielStraight
I'm sorry, but this is bullshit. Their privacy policy states they share
personally identifiable information with third parties only with consent.
Their entire business model is the exact opposite. They reason the site and
app exists is to share personally identifiable information with third parties
without consent.

This is nothing but vigilantism.

~~~
jamesaguilar
I assume they mean the private personal information of the _user_, which is
different than the PII of the target.

Also I feel I must again correct this misconception that mere reporting of
violations of the law is somehow equivalent to unauthorized meting out of
punishment for lawbreaking. Vigilantism and reporting crimes are two different
things.

~~~
DanielStraight
Crimes should be reported to the police, not the public. A public report of a
crime _is_ a punishment (see the Biblical story of Cain, public markings for
adultery in colonial New England, etc.).

The sex offender registry in the U.S. reports crimes to the public, and at
best, it's nothing but a source of FUD ("Find the sex offenders on your
block!"). At worst, it's a way of branding offenders for life, keeping them
from holding even completely innocent jobs. Don't forget you can get put on
the registry for something as trivial as urinating in public.

Give me any reason to believe this system will lead to a better end than the
sex offender registry and I'll change my mind.

~~~
jamesaguilar
The problem with the sex offender registry is that its implied claim ("this
person has at some time in the past committed a crime that would lead us to
believe they are a sexual danger to others") is often false. That is, the
actual crime would not lead a reasonable person to believe that the offender
present a danger to them. In the event that it were always true or the burdens
added by the label were always justified, there would be no wrong in reporting
it to the public.

> for "life"

You mean for the duration of their stay in the registry.

> Give me any reason to believe this system will lead to a better end than the
> sex offender registry and I'll change my mind.

Ends are all well and good. But to me, a more important issue is that the
public has a right to state facts about publicly committed acts in any forum
they desire and which allows it. If people believe that it is beneficial to
air their concerns about other people's driving in this forum, no tentative
evaluation of the quality of the ends can be permitted to preempt that right.

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bryanlarsen
I would be willing to bet that most people who use the app to flag other
drivers are themselves worse than average drivers. Does the app send flagger's
info to the insurance company as well as the flagee's info?

~~~
gaustin
I would hope so, because I'm betting most people would be using this while
driving.

~~~
ktsmith
Very few of them are likely to have launched the app prior to getting in the
car as well. So even with the voice entry of the license plate (how accurate
is that going to be) you'll still have to get the app open, then pay attention
to whatever prompts it gives you before submitting to make sure you are
reporting the right license plate. This seems like a horrible app and very
distracting.

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khafra
If, instead of reporting drivers to the DMV and their insurance companies this
sent a message to a mailbox accessible by the driver, it would be pretty cool.

As it is, there are too many drivers so unaware of road rules and best
practices that they people driving correctly are the incompetents. This will
fail to improve road safety, although it may succeed at raising insurance
company revenue by providing an excuse to raise rates.

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joezydeco
What's to keep 4chan from wrecking your insurance record if they decide they
don't like you?

~~~
gloob
Basic human decency, covered with an icing of crossed fingers?

~~~
iamdave
Read his post again, and pay close attention to the part that says _4chan_

~~~
joezydeco
Ding!

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gigawatt
I can't wait until my parked car gets flagged by my neighbor that doesn't like
me and my insurance rates go up.

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harold
There are processes in place already to keep one accountable while driving. We
can debate the effectiveness or lack thereof, but this is not the solution.

Generally, traffic citations and tickets are only reported to the DMV and
insurance companies _after_ someone has been convicted in court or paid a
fine. There is almost always the ability to show up in court and contest the
citation.

DriveMeCrazy seems to circumvent this due process.

They recognize they have 'noise' in their data. That noise is going to cost
time and/or money to sort out if an innocent driver has their license plate
entered by mistake or by some jilted/angry/petty person.

~~~
vaksel
it circumvents the 6th amendment of the constitution, this part in particular:

    
    
       to be confronted with the witnesses against him;

~~~
jamesaguilar
This right only applies to a citizen charged with a crime in a court of law.
It doesn't give you the right to know what people were saying about you behind
your back at the water cooler, or know which people are complaining about how
you cut them off using this app.

~~~
vaksel
when you speed you break the law, which is why you have the right to go to
court to fight a ticket. If I get charged with speeding, and get 4 points on
my license because some asshat thought I was speeding then I should have the
right to cross examine the guy who reported me in court, like I can do with
cops.

~~~
jamesaguilar
You seem to be confused. There is no reason to believe the police will charge
you based on an anonymous comment from a user of this app. If they did, I am
sure he would be called to the witness stand if you decided to contest the
charge. But honestly I cannot see this happening at all.

I really don't understand what you are so riled up about considering in
another thread not five minutes ago you claimed that the police never charge
anyone based on traffic violations reported by other citizens. As I recall,
you had this on good authority from your friend in the NYPD.

~~~
vaksel
my problem isn't with the DMV aspect, since they can't do anything with
it....my problem is with the insurance companies, who might just decide to
factor this into their rate calculations.

And since the rates seem to be taken from thin air, they could raise your
rates without you ever knowing that someone reported you.

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slillibri
Is it just me but, even though the information is sent to the DMV and
insurance companies, it's completely unenforceable? How is this any different
then me just calling your insurance company (assuming I have this knowledge)
and saying 'Hey, this guy was driving like a tool on such-and-such a date'.
What proof is there? If my insurance company or the DMV did anything with any
of these reports against me, I would immediately challenge the veracity of the
data.

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msluyter
I look forward to reports of accidents being caused by drivers fiddling with
their iPhones in an attempt to flag other drivers.

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enomar
While, I don't really like that these "offenses" are stored permanently, I
would like a way to anonymously notify a driver they're doing something wrong.

I can't stand smokers that throw their (sometimes still lit) butts out the
window. It would be nice to have some way to vent other than road rage.

~~~
khafra
Or even to leave neutral or positive comments:

\- Your left brake light is out

\- Thanks for being aware I was on a bicycle to your right and waiting before
making that turn

\- Nice RomRaider decal on the side of your WRX, is there an open-source ECU
tuner's group in this city?

\- I saw a black Mustang, license plate XXXX, clip the side of your parked
vehicle and drive off.

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bryanlarsen
I have a friend who writes down license plates on his bicycle commute, and
phones them in to the cops regularly. This app is no different from that. You
should have no expectation of anonymity when driving a multi-ton vehicle on
public property at speeds that can kill people.

~~~
vaksel
so your friend ties up the 911 line over some petty bullshit like someone
doing +5mph? Just fyi, the cops hate your friend, and I'd bet that they've
never acted on a single one of his tips

~~~
danteembermage
"ties up the 911 line"

Where did he say he's using the emergency line?

"the cops hate your friend"

you don't know this obviously

"I'd bet that they've never acted on a single one of his tips"

even if that were true, the cyclist is going to feel better so long as the
probability of them acting sometime is positive. Think revenge lottery ticket.
Humans don't process small probabilities well you might as well use it to feel
better after getting cut off in the bike lane.

~~~
vaksel
-because the sort of guy to report people as often as was implied in the original post, is the sort of guy who uses 911.

-actually I do, my friend is with the NYPD, and they hate people like that since they waste their time, they can't give you a ticket unless they've seen you break the law

-he said/she said doesn't apply to traffic tickets, so no, there is literally 0 chance of any positive result

~~~
bryanlarsen
If there are several witnesses to a felonious driving offence such as
dangerous driving, the cops will most definitely track you down and charge
you.

~~~
vaksel
that's an old wives tale, ever called the cops yourself? I did.

Was involved in a hit and run, reported the guy right away, took them 2 hours
to show up.

Had a tree fall on power lines, took them and the fire department 40 minutes
to show up...granted there were no sparks flying. But still.

Had 2 accidents, first time had to wait for 4 hours for them to show up. The
second time 30 minutes.

The point being, is that it takes a while for cops to actually act, and by the
time they do, the guy you wasted precious time reporting, already left the
jurisdiction

~~~
bryanlarsen
I've called the cops 3 times, and they've never taken more than 5 minutes to
show up.

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vaksel
reporting to the DMV and the insurance companies is over the top...those 2
entities specifically ignore vigilantism and your record can only be affected
if a police officer who actually knows the law issues a citation.

all this will do is overwhelm the resources of the DMV/insurance companies,
costing them money, which they'll transfer to their customers.

and seriously, the only people who'd do this, would be someone who does 60mph
in the left lane, while everyone else is doing 80. And in fact, the guy is the
one who is breaking the law, since he is impending the flow of traffic.

i look forward to having 4chan track this guy down...snitches get stitches.

~~~
jamesaguilar
> those 2 entities specifically ignore vigilantism

Reporting violations of the law is not the same as taking enforcement of the
law into your own hands. The latter is vigilantism. The former is this app.

> all this will do is overwhelm the resources of the DMV/insurance companies,
> costing them money, which they'll transfer to their customers.

I don't buy the line of argument that insurance companies and the DMV are
incapable of filtering their email, and that somehow this is going to cost
significant enough amounts of money that consumers will be affected.

> and seriously, the only people who'd do this, would be someone who does
> 60mph in the left lane, while everyone else is doing 80. And in fact, the
> guy is the one who is breaking the law, since he is impending the flow of
> traffic.

Since we're going with juvenile arguments, I'll just say that when you assume,
you make an ass out of u and me.

> i look forward to having 4chan track this guy down...snitches get stitches.

Jailhouse moral philosophy! Great finish.

~~~
jobu
Speaking of 4chan. This app could be their next uber prank. All they need to
know is David Miscavige's license plate number, and I bet hundreds of
Anonymous people will be targeting him all over California.

How about high school kids? Piss of a popular kid and all his/her friends
could start targeting your license plate.

This app has huge potential for misuse, and the fact that he's hoping
insurance companies may use it for keeping track of customers is very scary
indeed.

~~~
jamesaguilar
> very scary indeed

I guess the hacker community is just as susceptible to fear-mongering as the
average Republican, because dozens of reasons not to be concerned about this
are screaming out at me:

1\. No one uses it yet.

1.1. We're not sure anyone ever will.

2\. There is zero evidence that it will cause any harm.

3\. There is zero evidence that, if it does cause harm, that harm will be
irreparable.

4\. There is at least some reason to believe that it might have good effects
as well.

5\. Many of the harmful things that people in this comment area are
complaining about could already be accomplished through other means today. The
actual increase in attack surface is essentially nil.

6\. Many of the commenters, while complaining about vigilante justice, are
also calling for vigilante justice against the app's author. On the one hand,
turnabout is fair play. On the other hand, if you embrace this sort of
vigilantism, why not embrace the sort the app's author is promoting? Also,
have you no shame, you hypocrites?

If you think that this app is "very scary indeed," I really believe you need
to work on your fear tolerance because there are things in the world worth
being afraid of and this is not it.

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qjz
Can I use this app to report people who text while driving?

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ams6110
This actually doesn't bother me too much, as long as the flaggees are informed
of the flaggers identity. The responsibility should cut both ways.

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sp332
The whole point of _having_ a license plate (or "tag") on your car is to make
you accountable. Any anonymity drivers may have had up till now has been
entirely incidental. You are responsible for your driving, and you always have
been since you got your state-issued license.

~~~
qjz
The license plate makes the vehicle's _owner_ accountable, mainly to ensure
that the vehicle is fit to drive. But it doesn't identify the driver. I'd hate
to see my insurance rates go up due to this app because I lent my car to a
friend, or because someone behind us got aggravated when the car stalled while
I was teaching my daughter to drive.

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ilmare
I can't see how this [reporting flagged subjects to dmv and insurance
companies] is going to work. First of all they need a proof of violation that
would be difficult to obtain. Also this company will get sued by flagged users
into oblivion for violation of privacy. Awesome monetization idea though.

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edw519
I suspect this app will cause more bad driving than it solves. That's right.
You. Put down that cell phone and watch the road.

~~~
lazugod
Driving alone is at odds with any sort of mobile computing.

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jorgem
Not all bad: It's be cool if someone would report to me when my tail lights
are out. Or that I forgot to turn my headlights on. Or if my gas cap is
hanging out.

~~~
iamdave
tail lights = your responsibility to make sure your car is in operable
condition.

forgot to turn on your headlights = usually other drivers will flash or
quickly flip their lights on/off to warn you

gas cap = again, your responsibility.

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CWuestefeld
_the end of road-going anonymity can only improve safety... Drivers can ...
even flirt with other drivers_

Can he have this both ways?

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iamgoat
Wow, this is horrible for too many reasons.

