
Ask HN: Draconian rules/policies at your current or previous company? - throwaway_draco
Throwaway for obvious reasons.<p>In the place I work at, we start off the day with a standup meeting from members of different teams at 8:00am, which is a little bit on the earlier side of the day since many employees have 1+ hour commutes. This standup was imposed after many of the team members that participate joined the company (before that, the standard time to arrive was at 9:00am). The meeting is in-office, mandatory.<p>Any person that arrives even one minute late, gets  50% of their corresponding pay for that day off. Mind you, many of us work 10-12 hours a day and are expected to be available at any time of the day in case someone needs us and even during the weekends (I, for instance, have a mandatory meeting on Saturday and it is expected of me to fix anything that goes wrong with our product during the weekend). We do not get paid extra-time for any of those extra hours that we put.
======
el_dev_hell
I really hate when I read a post about a particular issue with a company and
everyone dog-piles on with "find a new job".

Usually, the issue is minor or can probably be resolved with a discussion.

Not in this case. Start applying for new jobs ASAP. The fact that the company
is willing to dock your pay by 50% for a on min late arrival signals a god-
awful culture. RUN.

~~~
throwaway_draco
> The fact that the company is willing to dock your pay by 50% for a on min
> late arrival signals a god-awful culture

I brought that up to the CEO/founder and he responded that he's open to
proposals. I said that my proposal was to eliminate that policy, but he
mentioned that "you cannot replace an idea with a non-idea". Then I mentioned
that they should at least reduce it, but he responded that if they reduced it,
people would start getting in late (which they rarely did before that policy,
and if they did, it was for very justifiable reasons).

~~~
sethammons
You should always come with solutions, not just problems. Here is a solution:
we move the stand up back to a reasonable time to better retain talent and we
immediately stop the half pay dockage and retroactively repay all those
affected to not be in violation of labor code, which could constitute serious
fines. And I do recommend looking up the code.

~~~
throwaway_draco
I liked the way you expressed it.

------
tcbasche
> Any person that arrives even one minute late, gets 50% of their
> corresponding pay for that day off.

Is that even legal?

~~~
davismwfl
IANAL, but from what I know if this is happening in the U.S. it isn't legal.
Even piece meal pay wouldn't allow for it, and hourly surely doesn't. Salary
also doesn't permit this as type of pay docking as you aren't being paid for
"hours", but for a position.

Frankly, I'd report it to the wage and labor for whatever state, but my guess
is this is outside the US.

------
throwaway_draco
Thanks to everyone that has responded so far. I didn't want this post into an
advice-seeking conversation, but I really appreciate that you're pointing the
red flags. I know that no workplace is perfect, so I just wanted to relate
with others that have terrible workplace environments with toxic cultures.

I could go on with the list of things that are definitely off (the
gaslighting, the verbal abuses, the fear culture that's been instilled, nano-
management, etc.), but that's really not the point.

Also, this is not in the US, but it's also illegal here.

I've started to interview at other companies and will leave soon (and
hopefully wiser).

I also think that many of these rules, policies, toxic culture, etc. weren't
created in a void, but they were built with one stone a time, all of that
subtly disguised in 'the company's mission', or with statements like "less
millenialism, more professionalism", and the 'work hard' mentality (that the
founders don't even abide to, since they work the least of all, some even have
side gigs). I really feel sorry for many of my non-tech co-workers that don't
have that many options out there.

------
WheelsAtLarge
Dude it's time for you to find a new job. I understand the meeting. Every
place I worked either had them or started soon after I started. Programmers
tend to get in later and later and eventually production starts to suffer. But
losing 50% pay is not acceptable. Also they are monopolizing too much of your
time. You can do better and should move on.

------
thowaway11
I'll _try_ to present a different point of view from the other comments.
(Whether it applies or not, depends on the actual context within your
environment - which only you and the people around you are privy to).

There seems to be some history to this decision (and probably other
decisions), as indicated by your comments:

    
    
      This standup was imposed after many of the team members that participate joined the company (before that, the standard time to arrive was at 9:00am)
    
      I brought that up to the CEO/founder and he responded that he's open to proposals. I said that my proposal was to eliminate that policy, but he mentioned that "you cannot replace an idea with a non-idea". Then I mentioned that they should at least reduce it, but he responded that if they reduced it, people would start getting in late (which they rarely did before that policy, and if they did, it was for very justifiable reasons).
    

I find it hard to believe that simply having new hires would have triggered
this change in timing from 9am to 8am. Did someone, _deemed_ senior/important,
request this change? Is the standup headed by your founder? Were people
constantly late to this standup/meeting?

Further, what is the average/median work-ex of team members in your company?
Are people able to work largely independently, or do they essentially need
face-time with senior members to be productive?

PS: Try not to internally frame this as an "but flexi-time _should_ be there,
it is best for developers" argument. Those are not universal truths. They need
to be seen in the context of the business/domain you are in, the maturity of
the team, and the culture that the company wants to build/promote.

Context: I'm a founder where I have implemented heavy-handed policies after
getting tired of people not adhering to basic work-place protocols
("professionalism"), even after informally pointing out such things multiple
times.

~~~
throwaway_draco
Thank you so much for your insightful reply. There's definitely history to
that decision. It started with the 8:00am standups because that was the time
when all the participants were free (since most arrived at 9:00). The way I
see it is that essentially they forced everyone to work for an extra hour,
because none of their other duties where reduced.

And while I'm an advocate of being on time, and perhaps use sticks when people
are not, 50% off from your daily salary seems excessively harsh. Please take
into account that most people have 1+ hour commutes, sometimes even 2+ hour
commutes (we live in a city with some of the worst traffic in the world).

> I find it hard to believe that simply having new hires would have triggered
> this change in timing from 9am to 8am. Did someone, deemed senior/important,
> request this change? Is the standup headed by your founder? Were people
> constantly late to this standup/meeting?

Maybe I didn't explain clearly, but this change wasn't because of the new
hires. What I meant is that when most of the participants in the meeting
joined the company, we joined with the idea of a standard 9-6 job. The late
arrivals weren't that big of a deal to impose such policies.

> Further, what is the average/median work-ex of team members in your company?
> Are people able to work largely independently, or do they essentially need
> face-time with senior members to be productive?

It's a highly operations-driven company, so we need a lot of communication,
both us team leaders with our teams, and between team leaders.

> Try not to internally frame this as an "but flexi-time should be there, it
> is best for developers" argument. Those are not universal truths. They need
> to be seen in the context of the business/domain you are in, the maturity of
> the team, and the culture that the company wants to build/promote.

I completely agree with this point. I see value in having those standups. I
see value in having them at a specific time. I see value in having them early
in the morning. Heck, I even see some value in using sticks if we're not there
on time. Perhaps my frustration stems from my personal situation, where I'm
constantly pulling 60-70 hour work weeks, plus a mandatory leadership meeting
on Saturdays (11am-3pm), plus whatever bug arises at whatever time. The 60-70
hours a week are not mandatory, but it's what's needed to get things done. It
just sounds unfair.

> heavy-handed policies after getting tired of people not adhering to basic
> work-place protocols ("professionalism"), even after informally pointing out
> such things multiple times.

This is a great comment. Would you mind sharing some of the policies that you
implemented?

Now, I hold an important position in the company and I'm very close to the
founders, so I understand the rationale behind these policies. But I disagree
with the outcome.

Now, I'm one of the least affected since my commute is short. But it has
forced me to change some habits, like commuting on Uber instead of public
transportation (which has significantly increased my expenses). Even when I do
arrive late (about once or twice a month), it doesn't affect me financially (I
don't live paycheck to paycheck). But I think it's so unfair that it really
pisses me off.

My course of action will be to vote with me feet and leave. But I definitely
want to get a better sense of what's fair in the workplace and what's not.
Which ones are acceptable punishments and which ones are not.

~~~
thowaway11
Also, please see if you can get (or estimate) the following:

    
    
      - absolute pay deductions in a month
      - pay deductions as a percentage of monthly salary bill
    

My guess is that both these numbers will be miniscule. I don't think the idea
is to "steal pay" and make a profit. The underlying motivation is something
else, and it has been unfortunately implemented in a very questionable manner.

------
mc3
I'd say: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ySO-
gryuO-c&feature=youtu.be...](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ySO-
gryuO-c&feature=youtu.be&t=96)

------
wmf
Find a new job immediately.

------
beefchops
This is ridiculous. Tell us what the company is, we as a community need to
know so that we can avoid this bs.

Also as others have said, you should start shopping around for a new position.

------
gesman
Depending on jurisdiction this company exposes itself to legal liability.

Sounds more like a sweatshop

------
BrandonBradley
Sounds like a '50% corresponding hours' for a minute late.

