
EU may force iPhone to switch from Lightning to USB - mercutio2
https://www.cultofmac.com/568215/eu-may-force-iphone-to-switch-from-lightning-to-usb/
======
sschueller
The EU should force apple to open NFC to all. The only reason we have these
stupid slow bluetooth adhoc payment systems here is because apple refuses to
let anyone other than their own apple pay use NFC.

I can use my android phone to pay via NFC directly from my bank account (no
android pay, no third party or extra fees.). Why can't apple?

~~~
dogma1138
Apple Pay is secure, does not expose your details and is integrated with the
banks in the bank end.

The last thing you want is to have a plethora of insecure adhock hacked
together contactless payment systems.

~~~
grezql
thats not the problem here. Developers like me dont want to access apple pay
but NFC.

Lets say you distribute nfc stickers to local store, and when someone swipes
their iphone on it, it should wake up my app and fetch the production
information. Such ideas wont work with apples NFC limitation. They require you
to first open the app, then swipe.

Many innovation ideas are hampered by Apples behaviour. Its not about
security, its about Apple pays rollout and adoption

~~~
dogma1138
You are moving the goalposts. You can read NFC tags on iOS devices without a
problem, I don’t want an NFC signal being able to initiate any action on my
device, you shouldn’t want that either.

For mission specific implementations e.g. inventory checking or shopping
costumers can have the app active it’s much less of an inconvenience and a
security risk than being able to wake up apps and communicate with them
without the user being aware of such activity.

While you can argue that many innovative ideas are hampered by Apple this
isn’t one of them they are in the right on this issue and many other security
related issues.

~~~
icebraining
_I don’t want an NFC signal being able to initiate any action on my device_

Isn't that exactly what happens with Apple Pay?

~~~
obituary_latte
No, you have to initiate payment from the device (phone/watch).

~~~
dogma1138
You only need to approve it, however it’s not the equivalent I trust Apple
much more than any random 3rd party vendor. Heck as far as security goes I
trust them more than my bank.

~~~
pwinnski
I'm not sure why you're disagreeing with the parent commenter. On my phone, I
can wave my phone around the reader as much as I want, but until I double-
click the side button, Apple Pay will not be engaged. I must then also
authenticate, but there are no circumstances I'm aware of under which
terminals can prompt Apple Pay to start. Which I believe is as it should be.

~~~
dogma1138
Something is odd with the phone or reader because all contactless payment
readers in the UK activate Apple Pay on mine. As in I don’t need to double
click I even have that option disabled it will prompt the wallet auth even if
the phone is locked.

------
fpoling
If EU wants to save on e-waste, it should dictate that phone should be sold
without chargers or cables. If one wants a new cable or a charger, the person
should pay for it extra.

~~~
gaff33
That doesn't really solve the problem since I already have USB chargers lying
around but not <insert format here>.

A better solution might be to apply a charge per nonstandard charger given out
to customers. At this stage it would practically be an Apple tax.

~~~
icebraining
Isn't Apple's charger already standard USB?

~~~
phoe-krk
Of course it's not. Apple devices don't have USB ports - they have Lightning
ports.

Have you read this article at all?

~~~
seanmcdirmid
Apple chargers are USB on the block, just not on the phone. You can plug a
micro USB cable into an Apple charger to charge your USB devices, and then
switch to a lightning cable (whose other end is full sized male USB) to charge
your iDevices.

You could also use a non Apple USB charger with your lightning cable to charge
your iDevice, though how effective that is depends on the voltage of the
block.

------
zghst
Way too much government overreach. It’s ridiculous for government to intervene
at this level of product development.

~~~
officialchicken
It's just like that mains socket on the wall that every electronic device
uses. Would you prefer if each manufacturer had their own 110v/220v plug?

~~~
sjwright
A poor argument since iPhone uses, and has always used industry standard USB-A
on the "wall" side.

I really don't understand what the EU is complaining about. I'm not aware of a
single smartphone that doesn't charge over USB. Or do they really have stick
up their bum about both ends of the cable?

~~~
michaelt

      I really don't understand what the EU is
      complaining about. I'm not aware of a single
      smartphone that doesn't charge over USB.
    

You know why that is? Because in 2009, the EU told them to [1].

The fact you're not aware of a single smartphone that doesn't charge over USB
is, in fact, a major success for the EU bossing phone manufacturers around!

[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_external_power_supply](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_external_power_supply)

~~~
sjwright
That's basically a lie; the industry was already unifying around USB charging
because it's so cheap to implement and reduces the part count.

(To the extent the EU did anything right, they correctly predicted the future,
which is I suppose fairly impressive.)

~~~
michaelt
If the market was going to give us USB chargers anyway, why do cheap phones
which are excluded from Common EPS rules, like the Samsung E1200, often not
use USB chargers?

~~~
sjwright
So again, they correctly predicted that dirt cheap shit with internal
electronics designed more than fifteen years ago will continue to be dirt
cheap shit today. Wow, the EU is amazing.

What's their next trick? Banning spinning hard disks from laptops? Forcing all
consumer grade digital cameras to use SD cards?

------
rbanffy
Please, make it USB-C

~~~
jacobush
Apple already has it on their Macbooks, so I'd not be surprised if their long
term plan ("plan B?") is to go with USB-C for their iOS devices too.

~~~
dasmoth
At this point, I strongly suspect Apple are hoping to keep Lightning going
until they're ready to make phones wireless-charge-only. That's probably still
a few years away, but I'm sure they're thinking in that direction.

It'll cause some initial grumbling, but I'm not sure it would be a terribly
thing. As well as making waterproofing easier, little sockets at the bottom of
phones always seem to collect lint in my pockets, which ends up causing dodgy
connections.

What would the EU do in this case?

~~~
TomMarius
> What would the EU do in this case?

Fine Apple for not following its regulation, of course. Classic EU.

~~~
swift532
If you want to express how oppressive the EU is, it might be better to use
"late modern EU".

~~~
rbanffy
I would suggest he goes for "socialist EU".

~~~
swift532
I was just joking because before his edit he had "classical EU" instead of
"classic EU".

~~~
TomMarius
Sorry I didn't update the page and didn't see your comment. I'd add an edit
notice, but I thought nobody has noticed. :X

~~~
swift532
You would've gotten away with it, if it weren't for the meddling me! :)

------
sbuk
> "The idea is to cut down on the 51,000 tons of old chargers thrown away each
> year."

Am I imanging it or is this a bit strange? Every single mobile device that I
have owned in the last 5 years, exluding laptops has either come without an
adapter (Kindle, Moto G5) or with its own 5-9W adapter and a plug-in cable
(Chromecast, iPhone)[0]

[0] [https://goo.gl/images/aD7Qxa](https://goo.gl/images/aD7Qxa)

~~~
yebyen
The pictured adapter is the standard one. What do you think you're imagining
exactly? Kindles don't come with a charger? That seems a bit silly, for a
device that has to charge...

You can use this adapter to charge your phone, or power your chromecast. It's
not automatically junk if either of the two aforementioned devices should ever
become junk, like the traditional "wall-wart" with randomly sized barrel
plugs, or some other standard.

If anything is strange, it's that seemingly this law takes no account of non-
USB devices that don't have any reason to plug into a computer, and may have
variable power requirements other than 1A or 2.1A provided by USB at 5V. Don't
get me wrong, I think it's great to have a common standard, it's a shame there
aren't more of them /s

Also wondering what happens under this law when USB-C comes around? It's been
a while since I've seen a new phone that doesn't use USB-C here stateside, but
according to this law I would think that to be impossible and illegal. (So how
does that shake out in practice?)

A quick google search doesn't seem to indicate that this is a solved issue,
finding this result on the front page concerned in 2015 that the wrong thing
will happen: [https://medium.com/@gfrontera/usb-type-c-and-the-
eu-35482b31...](https://medium.com/@gfrontera/usb-type-c-and-the-
eu-35482b314f89)

~~~
michaelt

      What do you think you're imagining exactly?
      Kindles don't come with a charger?
    

The Kindle [1] comes with a USB cable - but not a mains charger. The product
page says "Fully charges in approximately 4 hours from a computer via USB
cable" and offers an add-on item, "Kindle USB Charger (not included) 2017
edition £11.99" or "Kindle Power Adapter (not included) $19.99"

[1]
[https://www.amazon.com/dp/B017JG41PC/](https://www.amazon.com/dp/B017JG41PC/)
[https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B0186FET66/](https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B0186FET66/)

------
gruturo
I think Apple may have even been eyeing a migration to USB-C for its phones
and tablets, but held it back to avoid pissing off their customers after the
(relatively) recent switch from the old 30pin connector.

This provides them with the perfect excuse for going ahead while avoiding (or
redirecting) a bit of customer rage which would result.

~~~
sjwright
If it could be argued that Apple changed because the EU forced them to, it
would be a monumental scandal. There's no way Apple would be so stupid as to
walk into that PR disaster.

~~~
otp124
How would this be a scandal? The post you responded to sounds more plausible
to me than it becoming a monumental scandal or PR disaster.

~~~
sjwright
Apple changing the plug on their iPhone again? After they've told everyone to
invest in lightning cables and accessories? It creates a stir when they change
voluntarily; it would be an utter scandal if it was foisted upon Apple by a
foreign government.

Did you not read about Macbooks and USB-C?

Scandal.

~~~
pedrocr
You're extrapolating your own care for this topic to all of Apple's customers.
You've done it all over the discussion and it massively overestimates how much
people care about this. If there's anything the last few years taught us is
that Americans are quite immune to outrage and scandal. Your example of
Macbooks and USB-C is hilarious. No one outside hacker news actually cares.

------
timwis
What if Apple comes up with some new invention for the charging cables in a
year or two, for example some even faster Quick Charge that USB C can't
handle?

~~~
sjwright
Or what if they invented a better wireless charging system than Qi? The EU is
basically saying innovation is dead. At this rate they'll be requiring all
phones to support Adobe Flash and 3.5 inch IDE hard disks.

~~~
kuschku
The EU merely requires that the currently largest manufacturers form a
council, which decides on which charging standard to use. This council can
change it again at any time, but all manufacturers have to use the same
standard at each point in time.

If the manufacturers want to switch to a different standard, that’s absolutely
fine — just all should use the same.

------
eecc
Apple already provide USB-Lightning cables and USB ported DC adapters,
admittedly a greener configuration compared to hardwired options. It's the
competition that must provide an Apple like option.

~~~
icebraining
My Asus tablets and Moto phones also came with a separated charger + cable. Is
hardwiring common?

~~~
lwkl
Not anymore and we have the EU-law and smartphones tonthabk for that.

I remeber when Nokia, Sony etc. all had a different charger and they all were
hardwired except the iPods and later the iPhones.

~~~
TomMarius
> Not anymore and we have the EU-law and smartphones tonthabk for that.

What? The EU did absolutely nothing that got us this outcome. It was purely
the market itself, when everyone started switching to smartphones and it was
common to connect your smartphone to your PC. Remember that smartphones are
not evolution of mobile phones, but PDAs and MDAs - that had mini USBs for a
long time before any smartphone has existed. This started at least around 2003
and around 2007, it was already clear that not using USB is a disadvantage,
and in 2008/9 it was irrelevant what "dumb" mobile phone manufacturers are
doing as it was clear that smartphones have won in the long run.

Yeah, the EU has created a memorandum. A completely irrelevant memorandum, as
it was created in 2009, very very late in the game.

~~~
imari
It was entirely because of the EU as to why most smart-phone manufacturers
switched to USB. It wasn't really a law per-say but more of a MoU[0] (which
means it's entirely voluntary). Apparently, having them comply with it
voluntarily didn't work out so well, which is why they want to enforce it as a
law[1].

[0] [http://ec.europa.eu/growth/sectors/electrical-
engineering/re...](http://ec.europa.eu/growth/sectors/electrical-
engineering/red-directive/common-charger_en) [1]
[https://www.engadget.com/2018/08/07/eu-study-harmonize-
phone...](https://www.engadget.com/2018/08/07/eu-study-harmonize-phone-
chargers/)

~~~
TomMarius
So how do you explain the fact that I used many PDAs before 2009 (I had 4
between 2004 and 2009) that had mini USBs and there mostly wasn't a PDA on the
market that didn't have mini USB around 2007?

~~~
icebraining
From what I can tell, neither Palm nor Samsung nor the HP iPAQs were using USB
on their PDAs back in 2007. Neither was Nokia on their pre-iPhone smartphones,
like the E-series. And obviously, the original "modern smartphone" \- the
iPhone - didn't either.

