
After accidental vote, EU copyright bill faces three legitimacy issues - walterbell
http://www.fosspatents.com/2019/03/after-yesterdays-accidental-vote-eu.html
======
mrosett
I'm not sure if the author is in the "denial" stage or the "bargaining" stage
of grief. The outcome of the vote is an absolute travesty, and I don't
understand the intricacies of EU politics, but everything I've seen gives me
the impression that this is a done deal.

~~~
johnnyfaehell
Just curious why you think upholding copyright is a travesty?

~~~
DINKDINK
Regardless if you think "copyright" increases or decreases quality of life, it
is irrefutable that it violates Natural rights. If I memorize an illegal
number [1], then I've made an copy that the corporate/state doesn't allow and
consequently, I no longer own my body. Enforcement of copyright breaks the
NAP.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illegal_number](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illegal_number)

~~~
CamperBob2
The EU isn't big on natural rights, though. They talk a good game, but once
you get beyond the vaguest platitudes, the people in power at the moment are
the ones who get to define what "rights" mean. As usual it comes down to
whoever has the most lawyers, guns, and/or money.

The concept is problematic enough here in the US, where our founding documents
assume that rights are granted by a deity who rarely bothers to put in an
appearance when said rights are being violated. It's best to find more
rational bases than "natural rights" for arguments like copyright reform, if
at all possible.

------
johnnycab
_Others have said the incorrect votes were perhaps not so accidental. Magnus
Andersson, leader of the Swedish Pirate Party, suggested on Twitter that MEPs
may have corrected the record just so they could later say they meant to do
the right thing “as a way to get away with how they voted.”_

[https://www.theverge.com/2019/3/27/18283837/europe-
copyright...](https://www.theverge.com/2019/3/27/18283837/europe-copyright-
directive-accidental-vote-meps-amendment)

Some votes cast in the plebiscite were incidental rather than being
accidental; the upcoming European elections in May, might require some members
to contain the backlash or limit any blowback.

------
thepangolino
For me this is not just the EU copyright bill that faces legitimacy issues but
the whole European Parliament. The vote only served to highlight systemic
issues regarding how votes are conducted.

~~~
gambiting
How so? Can you expand on that?

~~~
fasterthanlime
Here's MEP Dobromir Sośnierz showing how the two different kind of votes look
like:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zLh9DMuetm4](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zLh9DMuetm4)

It seemed incredible to me how one could "accidentally vote wrong", but seeing
the process and speed at which it goes, I totally buy it now.

~~~
seba_dos1
Keep in mind that this video comes from a very biased source (an unimportant
party that literally went to elections with a claim to want to "destroy the EU
from inside"). The issue may be real, but beware of how exactly it's being
painted in this material.

~~~
lisper
If this issue is real (and it seems plausible to me) then destroying the EU
from the inside might very well be an honorable thing to do.

~~~
trickstra
It most certainly isn't plausible. Have you ever seen any livestreams or full
recordings of parliamentary sessions? Not necessary from EP. They are voting
whether to have 10 minute break. They are voting whether to accept the daily
schedule. They are voting whether to follow with the next point in the
schedule. They are voting whether to start voting. Those are the ones voted by
raising your hands. Those are the ones that nobody expects any protests so the
people don't even raise their eyes. Copyright act was voted by names,
otherwise Julia Reda wouldn't have the lists

~~~
lisper
> Copyright act was voted by names

And yet there are ten EU parliament members on the record saying that they
voted in favor of the copyright act "by accident":

[https://www.theverge.com/2019/3/27/18283837/europe-
copyright...](https://www.theverge.com/2019/3/27/18283837/europe-copyright-
directive-accidental-vote-meps-amendment)

So there's clearly _something_ wrong with the procedures.

~~~
isostatic
In Westminster the voting system means you have to leave the chamber and go
through into another room. Takes about 15 minutes.

You get MPs that vote both yes and no.

People saying they “made a mistake” only say such a thing because they regret
it - they’ve probably never had anyone contact them about which way they voted
in the past.

~~~
IanCal
I'm not sure how a different chamber votes is all that relevant.

> You get MPs that vote both yes and no.

Do you? I've not heard of many issues with the process apart from things
typically hundreds of years ago.

> People saying they “made a mistake” only say such a thing because they
> regret it

Or because they actually did make a mistake.

~~~
jdietrich
_> Do you?_

Occasionally, yes.

[https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-
politics-21591602](https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-21591602)

 _> I've not heard of many issues with the process apart from things typically
hundreds of years ago._

We've had some serious issues recently with pairing. MPs cannot vote in
absentia for any reason. The informal process of pairing allows an ill or
otherwise unavoidably absent MP to be paired with an opposition MP, who will
agree not to vote and so cancel out the absent MP. Brexit has led to a number
of broken pairing agreements, which could have seriously undermined the
legitimacy of a close vote.

[https://theconversation.com/pairing-and-why-it-matters-in-
th...](https://theconversation.com/pairing-and-why-it-matters-in-the-house-of-
commons-100278)

A broader issue is simply the slow pace of voting; a division can take at
least 15 minutes, so the vast majority of votes are taken orally in the house
without a formal count. There are long-standing concerns about the ability of
back-bench MPs to vote with their conscience; MPs physically have to walk past
their party whips to enter the lobby, which some argue contributes to a
culture of bullying and intimidation.

[https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/dec/15/rumours-
of-...](https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/dec/15/rumours-of-
government-whipping-operation-abound-in-westminster)

------
kozikow
Brexit vote expressed people disagreement with bureaucracy and corruption like
this, not with being a part of Europe.

~~~
viraptor
You may need some references for that idea. I'm not saying it's wrong, just
that extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

~~~
jgmjgm
Nonsense. This type of criticism is unwarranted and I suspect disingenuous.

There are lots of contexts in which we can say we would like to see more data.
However, when someone is making a point which is a fairly standard one in the
Brexit debates we don't need "references". Nor would referring to an article
that said the same thing as OP somehow validate the point. There is a place
for asking for references, but on a basic comment like this there is not.

Based on the other comments, it seems people are more upset about the
perspective behind this idea rather than its truthfulness. I don't agree with
the perspective that leaving the EU is a good thing but it is uncontrovertible
that a significant portion of the population in the UK agrees with OP's
statement.

~~~
daveFNbuck
Leading up to the Brexit vote, there was famously a bus driving around
expressing the idea that voting to leave would result in a savings of 350
million pounds per week, which could be reinvested in the NHS.

I don't think there was a bus about bureaucracy.

~~~
areyousure
The UKIP bus pictured here one week before the Brexit vote says "British
farmers freed from bureaucracy - Stuart Agnew MEP":
[https://twitter.com/ukip/status/743369504844091393](https://twitter.com/ukip/status/743369504844091393)

(It also says "Free business from EU red tape - Margot Parker MEP".)

~~~
daveFNbuck
I wouldn't say that bus was about bureaucracy. If anything, it bolsters the
point that the Brexit vote wasn't about any one issue.

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trickstra
accidental my ass

~~~
OrgNet
they think all of us are stupid...

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karmakaze
"Well that didn't go as intended. Let's amend it. Oh right, we can't."

