
Cheap and Painless eGPU Thrills on a 2013 MacBook Pro - archagon
http://beta-blog.archagon.net/2016/12/31/cheap-and-painless-egpu-thrills-on-a-2013-macbook-pro/
======
hendersoon
This is interesting academically, but I wouldn't buy a hacked-together TB2
enclosure.

Thunderbolt 3 eGPU enclosures are available now, and are fully supported by
Intel and windows. They started at $500 with the Razer Core, but new models
like the AkiTiO Node and Powercolor Devil Box are coming in at $299, shipping
Q1 2017. More will likely be announced at CES this week.

These TB3 enclosures have 400w+ power supplies, better cooling, and are large
enough to fit large enthusiast GPUs like the Nvidia GTX 1080. You can plug a
TB3 device into a TB2 laptop with a simple adapter. Apple sells theirs for
$29; Chinese versions will be cheaper.

Depending on what features the manufacturer decides to add to their device,
TB3 eGPU enclosures can also charge your laptop, offer USB3 ports, gigabit
ethernet, audio jacks, etc. The $299 models tend to be very bare-bones but
there's no doubt that competition will lead to cheaper prices and more
features over time. Again, watch for more at CES this week.

Current list of TB3 eGPU enclosures:

AKiTiO Node ($300)
[https://www.akitio.com/expansion/node](https://www.akitio.com/expansion/node)

Asus ROG XG Station 2 (price unknown) [https://www.asus.com/Graphics-Cards-
Accessory/ROG-XG-STATION...](https://www.asus.com/Graphics-Cards-
Accessory/ROG-XG-STATION-2/)

BizonBOX 3 ($650, probably because it says it works with Macs) [https://bizon-
tech.com/us/bizonbox3-egpu.html/](https://bizon-
tech.com/us/bizonbox3-egpu.html/)

Powercolor Devil Box ($300. Ugly, though.)
[http://www.powercolor.com/us/products_DevilBox_features.asp?...](http://www.powercolor.com/us/products_DevilBox_features.asp?id=1)

Razer Core ($500) [http://www.razerzone.com/gaming-systems/razer-blade-
stealth](http://www.razerzone.com/gaming-systems/razer-blade-stealth)

~~~
archagon
I would have certainly preferred to do this, but it would have involved a
$2000 upgrade first! (Well, barring the TB3-to-TB2 adaptor approach, but I've
seen almost no builds doing this.) Also, from what I've seen, there's a lot of
uncertainty regarding eGPU support with TB3; many people have reported
problems on TechInferno etc., and even AKiTiO is unclear about Mac support.
(If you check the specs for the Node, you'll see that Macs are listed as
unsupported. Does this mean OSX-only or BootCamp as well? Who knows?) Might be
worth waiting a year for things to shake out.

Also, I was optimizing in part for cheapness. Truly great gaming cards cost
$300 and up, and $400 total was about as much as I was willing to pay for an
upgrade.

~~~
hendersoon
TB3 is supposed to be fully backwards compatible with TB2; it's just a
different physical connector. That's why even Apple only charges $29 for the
adapter.

Waiting a year is way too much caution for me. I wouldn't pre-order anything,
but once other people post it works I'd feel safe to proceed.

~~~
erik
These adapters support hooking TB2 devices to a TB3 host, but not the other
way around.

Intel initially announced that TB3 devices would be compatible with TB2 hosts,
but it looks like they quietly dropped this feature. It's _really_ hard to
find a reference on this though.

~~~
btgeekboy
This guy[0] seems to say it works with the Razer Core.

[https://www.reddit.com/r/apple/comments/5l3y0a/egpu_my_exper...](https://www.reddit.com/r/apple/comments/5l3y0a/egpu_my_experience_with_the_15_tmbp_2016_and_a_15/)

~~~
erik
Looks like I had the wrong impression. Thanks for the link!

------
nfriedly
On the one hand, this is really cool. But, on the other hand, thats nearly
$400 to use a $140 video card with a Macbook that's running Windows and
basically behaving as a desktop computer.

It wouldn't be that much more expensive to just build a cheap Windows desktop
with the same video card - especially when simplicity and low fuss are stated
goals.

("Gaming computers" can be incredibly cheap.
[http://www.logicalincrements.com/](http://www.logicalincrements.com/) starts
at $169, and the tier with a GTX 1050 Ti is $528. Also, given the 20%
performance penalty from TB2, you could probably drop down a tier or two and
still get the same result.)

~~~
archagon
Sure, but there are a few additional factors. First, $400 is the "lazy price".
I had some credit card points to spend so I didn't want to waste too much time
looking for deals. But if you wait for rebates, buy used, or get the less
powerful non-Ti 1050, you could probably get close to $300. Second, I already
had a very powerful CPU in my machine (as well as 16GB of RAM) and I didn't
want to downgrade. Third, I move around constantly and prefer to keep my
belongings to a bare minimum, so a compact eGPU box was far more compelling
than even the smallest gaming PC case.

~~~
nfriedly
Fair enough. I'm glad you're happy with it - it's just not the route I would
choose :-)

Nice write-up either way.

------
slantyyz
In case anyone's wondering about doing it with the new 2016 Macbook Pros,
there's a video about it here:

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vvAB3U5umug&t=1s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vvAB3U5umug&t=1s)

------
Uehreka
This is really neat! I'm in a similar situation (Late 2013 Retina MacBook Pro
13") and have been doing some research on deep learning and neural networks.
Has anyone had success using eGPUs with things like CUDA and CUDNN? Is TB2's
lower bandwidth a bottleneck that would keep you from using a really beefy
eGPU for these purposes?

~~~
rincebrain
TB2 is akin to using one of those x16 slots that's wired to x4 (or worse,
since if you're using a Gen3 x16 GPU, you'd be running at Gen2 x4, which would
be an eightfold reduction).

It'll depend on your workload, but generally, it is going to be visibly slower
than the "baseline" performance for any high-utilization workload.

~~~
AlphaSite
Typically x8 can be used with near zero performance loss in many/most
workloads, and withGen3 x4 should be fine again.

------
paines
There is a mini PCI-E (as well as NGFF and Expresscard) solution or every kind
of laptop, as long as you are willing to fiddle around with your notebook a
bit (hardware wise)

[http://www.banggood.com/de/Mini-PCI-E-Version-V8_0-EXP-
GDC-B...](http://www.banggood.com/de/Mini-PCI-E-Version-V8_0-EXP-GDC-Beast-
Laptop-External-Independent-Video-Card-Dock-p-1011222.html)

Mine is on the way, so for now I cannot comment on the stability of the
system, but I expect it to be better and easier to setup than Thunderbolt,
because PCI-E is longer on the market. Sure the Thunderbolt solution is a
closed one-cable thing which looks way cleaner, but I read reviews from e.g.
Asus ROG EGPU users, with unstable systems. I absolutely don't want to bad
mouth the Thunderbolt solution, I would love to use it, by my system does not
have a port. Also, the TB dock is super expensive.

------
jwr
I wish there was a "target mode" for desktop PCs. Basically a Thunderbolt3
port on the motherboard, which when connected would expose the internal PCI
slots over TB3.

I don't know if this is even possible, but if so, it would be a fantastic
solution. Keep a monster desktop PC for gaming, then shut it down and connect
your MacBook and get a powerful computer for work.

~~~
fooker
Won't this be a matter of writing drivers?

~~~
pcr0
And you'd need a motherboard with Intel's top of the line chipset (Z170) for
TB support. Lots of people choose to skimp on the extra $30 or so as the
perception at the moment is that it's only necessary for overclocking.

~~~
hendersoon
Most Z170 motherboards don't have a TB3 port either, as it's an added cost
that most people frankly don't give a fig about. In PC motherboards, USB-C has
almost total market penetration; TB3 almost zero.

TB3 is much more prevalent on PC laptops, but still nowhere near common.

------
chx
Regarding the AC adapter, if you check that Amazon page it says it's by Mini
Box and Mini Box itself [http://www.mini-box.com/12v-10A-AC-DC-Power-
Adapter](http://www.mini-box.com/12v-10A-AC-DC-Power-Adapter) sells the right
adapter.

~~~
archagon
That one looks a bit more legit than the CD120100A I got. Perhaps I will send
it back and buy this one instead!

------
eltoozero
Fantastic write up, I've been meaning to attempt this very thing having found
the same thunderbolt enclosure and wondering why nobody had used a "low-end"
GTX rather than fussing with ATX PSU wiring.

Not that I'm a stranger to hacking a PSU, but my MacBook is not a RepRap.

~~~
seanp2k2
Eh, because he still had to hunt down a kinda sketchy China PSU from Amazon
and hope that it could do the rates wattage, spent twice as much on the
enclosure as the GPU, etc for a ~3.5x upgrade. I'm guessing that for most
people, if they're considering this, the few hundred extra to get as much
performance as you can out of it makes sense. Rigging up an ATX PSU isn't too
hard, and one could put it all into a SFF desktop case if you care about it
looking nice. Apparently TB3 enclosures are coming which also address all of
these shortcomings except price.

------
kevinsimper
Wow, what a well explained blog and pretty impressive that it doesn't need
more hacking to get it to work! EGPU is really an exciting future!

------
Lio
An alternative would be the Wolfe GPU[1]

I really wish we had an Apple "firing on all cylinders" that released
commercial products like this.

As a business I'm sure the current product line generates the right numbers in
someone's spreadsheet but to me it's just so ...dull.

For the first time since 2006 I haven't updated to the latest macOS and have
no plans to. I've seen nothing compelling in it compared to El Capitan.

I wish Apple had better OpenGL or Vulcan (for cross platform games) or eGPU
support for internal laptop displays. Instead we have Metal. So far I've not
seen an example of a AAA macOS game that actually supports it.

Then again I wish Apple would add an undo feature for the auto"correct" in iOS
but obviously they've got their own agenda. :)

[1] [https://thewolfe.io](https://thewolfe.io)

~~~
9935c101ab17a66
Eh, the Wolfe looks like vaporware at this point. They cancelled their
kickstarter and their explanation was vague and unconvincing. Their website
hasn't been updated fully to reflect the cancelled kickstarter. I don't see a
release timeline anywhere, and there's no mention of how their software works
at all (but they do allude to a software key, even though they imply it's plug
and play?).

~~~
Lio
That's sad news.

Hopefully the other TB3 enclosures will come along at a reasonable price.

------
DigitalJack
I really wish laptops would expose the screen to act as a monitor. I'd love an
external GPU, but I don't want an external monitor.

~~~
freehunter
There have been so many times in my "IT guy" history I would have loved to use
my laptop's screen as a monitor for another computer. It's kind of crazy to
have to track down a monitor just to see if a headless desktop is booting
properly so I can remotely access it from the laptop that's sitting right next
to it.

And my current MacBook has a retina screen, compared to the 1440x900 screen on
my desktop. I'd LOVE to use my desktop's power on my Macbook's screen.

------
kingosticks
Word of warning for anyone thinking of doing this with a Dell XPS 13/15, the
2016 models (at least) only support 16Gbps of PCIe over the Thunderbolt 3
link.

[http://www.notebookcheck.net/Design-flaw-in-
XPS-9350-9550-ma...](http://www.notebookcheck.net/Design-flaw-in-
XPS-9350-9550-may-cause-TB3-ports-to-run-at-TB2-speeds.189743.0.html)

~~~
hendersoon
Interesting-- I was not aware of that!

That's the same bandwidth as TB2, which will add another 10% performance
penalty versus a native 16-lane PCIe gen3 slot, for a total of 20% performance
lost. Still completely workable.

~~~
kingosticks
Nor was I until I started reading around this topic earlier. It's certainly
still workable but just worth keeping in mind before anyone springs extra £££
for TB3 and the latest crazy-powerful GPU.

------
smiled0g
If GPU manufacturers can make an eGPU that's standalone and connect to
PC/Laptop via Thunderbolt3(USB-C), that'd be pretty neat especially if they
can make it <$100 more expensive than the cost of GPU in PC version. I can see
a large portion of people who doesn't want to spend $300+ on an external GPU
box just to be able to upgrade the $200 card inside.

~~~
slantyyz
< $100 might be tough.

You've got to have a decently made chassis to accommodate and cool a full-
sized card and a meaty power supply for the latest and greatest GPUs. And
that's before you add any docking functionality for extra ports.

The cheapest thing I've seen to date is the Alienware Amp which sells for
around $150 but uses Alienware's proprietary port, which IIRC, is a bit slower
than TB3.

~~~
hendersoon
I haven't seen them tested side by side but actually both TB3 and the
Alienware Amplifier offer 4 lanes of PCIe gen3. So they should be pretty much
identical.

As for the lower-end pricing, it's very feasible to fit a laptop-oriented MXM
GPU moodule in a lower power envelope. The GTX 1060 mobile variant only draws
80 watts, and the GTX 1050 mobile sips power at 50 watts. They do obviously
need active cooling, but not a LOT of active cooling.

Note that the 10-series of GPUs are not cut-down versions like previous
generations. The 1050ti mobile is just as fast as the 1050ti desktop card at
same clocks, they bin the chips so it can work with less power.

It's very reasonable to imagine a sealed laptop dock (as opposed to a full
enclosure) with a 50 watt 1050ti inside selling for $300. Comin' soon!

~~~
lewisl9029
Another poster mentioned the Wolfe earlier in the thread, which has everything
I want in an eGPU box:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13304774](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13304774)

The price is a bit steep for the hardware it offers, but it looks super
portable and just powerful enough for my use cases.

Too bad it's apparently become vaporware.

------
andreiw
Does anyone know if the GPU can then be passed thru to VBox or Fusion?

~~~
oneplane
No, this cannot be done. In theory, it should be possible with xhyve in the
future, but at this moment, no PCIe or TB passing is possible because of the
lack of support on the hypervisor side on desktop operating systems.

~~~
rincebrain
What about these setups makes them more complicated to support than simple
PCIe passthrough? Because PCIe passthrough is definitely a thing you can do
currently in several virtualization implementations.

(Unless you mean you can't do it while also using it as a GPU in the desktop,
which is true.)

------
jankotek
I think you could fit entire gaming PC in that little box. There are low
profile gaming cards.

~~~
archagon
Yeah, though I imagine it would have to be a pretty weak gaming PC due to
cooling issues.

~~~
jsheard
Yep, you're not going to cram a proper gaming PC into 160inch³. AFAIK the
smallest case designed for gaming GPUs is the Dan A4 at 433inch³.

[https://www.dan-cases.com/dana4.php](https://www.dan-cases.com/dana4.php)

~~~
xanderstrike
There's also the NFC S4 Mini, which only supports half length GPUs (Gigabyte
makes a good 1070). It 4.3L or 262in³.

Both of these options are certainly smaller than a macbook plus an enclosure
though.

~~~
jsheard
The S4 Mini is news to me, it looks very nice. It does use an external power
brick though, unlike the A4 which is all internal.

Zotac just announced a mini GTX1080 so you could get some amazing performance
density in the S4.

[http://www.anandtech.com/show/10947/zotac-announces-
geforce-...](http://www.anandtech.com/show/10947/zotac-announces-geforce-
gtx-1080-for-miniitx-pcs)

------
jbverschoor
One of the things I imagined and researched for thunerbolt was this.
Unfortunately still quite expensive. Only due to supply/demand.

I hopes apple would offer an external gpu to use with their low powered laptop
gpus

------
dvcrn
I am very curious if eGPUs would work with Mac instead of windows. I am a
video editor with final cut as my main tool and if I could offload to a
external GPU, I would immediately do it.

Anyone knows if this works?

~~~
Fnoord
According to this guide, yes.

[https://www.reddit.com/r/apple/comments/5l3y0a/egpu_my_exper...](https://www.reddit.com/r/apple/comments/5l3y0a/egpu_my_experience_with_the_15_tmbp_2016_and_a_15/)

~~~
dvcrn
Oh damn! That's impressive. I will definitely do some more research on this!

Having a TB3 core with graphic power at home that I could just plug in if I
need the power, and otherwise carry a small lightweld MacBook with me sounds
too good to be true. If it's daisy-chainable I could imagine quite a nice
dock-setup with external display that could turn a small MBP into a work-horse
whenever needed. I'm intrigued.

------
SpicyPython
I understand the curiosity aspect of "Can/could I do this?", but from a
practical standpoint, why? A gaming desktop is more practical, cheaper, easy
to improve and change, etc. But if your problem is mobility, a gaming laptop
is probably cheaper to start off with, then it definitely is after the
external gpu.

~~~
archagon
My use case is admittedly a bit esoteric but: a) I need a MacBook for work, b)
I only have room for a single computer in my life, c) I already have a pretty
powerful computer with a TB2 port. Plus, it's nice to keep things relatively
simple.

------
makapuf
Nice hack, but wow, that's evidence of violence against a mouse (second
photo), call the PETA ..

------
jansenv
This is really amazing! I will be keeping an eye on this tech, as I do a bit
of gaming on my mbp. It seems obvious that the prices will continue to fall on
these components.

------
amelius
Related question: is it possible yet to connect an external GPU to a Raspberry
Pi (where bandwidth is not the bottleneck)? If not, why not?

~~~
Nexxxeh
I would imagine you can, but nothing gaming-grade because you're doing it over
USB 2.0 which is even worse on the Pi than it is on the PC.

------
CN7R
Isn't the main cost of eGPU enclosures the thunderbolt-to PCIe-board? Why
can't Intel sell them for cheaper?

------
lopespm
Anyone here used a similar rig for machine learning?

------
dbg31415
This is great. Thanks!

