
How did non US citizen founders funded by YC get allowed to work in the US? - faikr
Hi, first time posting here.<p>I've been thinking about applying to YC but the thing is that I am not a US citizen. I know I can travel to the US to do busines (attending meetings and such) done so fo my current employer. But how about starting a company and writing code?<p>I've read somewhere that YC has funded startups with non US citizen founders so it should be possible somehow. If there are any YC funded startups founded by non US citizens reading this (or anyone else that knows anything about this), how did you do it?<p>Note that I do not have a green card or visa or anything like that.<p>Cheers
======
alain94040
I have been on 6 different visas, over 15 years, I have quite a bit of
experience in the matter.

1\. 90% of the answers in this thread are _bad_ advice. Some of it really bad.
A lot of it just misleading, bogus or exaggerated (on HN, it's bad form to
criticize others, but when it comes to life-altering advice such as here, I
can't let it stand).

2\. It's too complicated to explain in a paragraph. It depends on too many
factors.

3\. The best lawyer site I have ever seen is <http://usvisanews.com>. Read
this weekly for 6 months, then you'll start having an idea of how it works

A few facts:

a. anybody can incorporate a US corporation. You don't even have to set foot
in the US, by the way, to do so.

b. the main issue is living in the US while having some kind of activity for a
company. It's usually defined as work, and that's when you must be very
careful and have the right status.

~~~
jayliew
Yup, agreed with Alain that there's so much legally correct, but also legally
wrong statements on this thread. This immigration question depends on like a
million factors. To name a few,

* which country you are a citizen of makes a HUGE difference - every country has a different relationship with the US. Some citizens walk in and out freely and do almost anything they want, while others can't even get their foot in the door

* what stage/maturity of your startup is in. If you're already proving that you have profits, can hire US citizens, have raised $, you're going to look a lot better than having nothing but an idea (again, just a broad generalization)

* Immigration fraud is a HUGE no-no. If you get caught, they might not ever let you in again. Ever. Depending on severity

* A million other tactics. I'm not a lawyer. But I know this is a question that needs an answer that is more than just cookie-cutter advice (if you're serious about your intentions). Talk to a lawyer. Many lawyers.

Yes, it sucks and all this is very anti- to the idea that America is the land
of opportunity :( Good luck and wish you guys all the best. Do share what
worked and what didn't with your fellow immigrant entrepreneurs

~~~
gorbachev
"which country you are a citizen of makes a HUGE difference"

While it makes a big difference in getting into the US (legally) and acquiring
whatever visa you need, it makes no difference whatsoever with regards to
requirements to work legally within US. You have to have legal authorization
to work in the US (i.e. either being a citizen, permanent resident or a
temporary resident) regardless of your citizenship.

------
amirmc
I suspect that while the non-US teams are at YC, some of them are technically
'tourists' (i.e just on holiday). They don't need a visa to enter the country
so it's a case of hear-no-evil, see-no-evil.

If they decide to stay in the US after YC, then they have to deal with the
nightmare of immigration and get themselves proper work permits.

For those who need a tourist visa to even enter the US, I have no idea.

~~~
wheels
"Seeking investment" is a valid reason to enter the US from visa waiver
countries. My (German) co-founder used that when entering for YC and had no
problems. It's also a perfectly reasonable simplification of what happens at
YC.

------
bluishgreen
I am an Indian on H1B Visa, possibly the worst country to be from relative to
the US Immigration System.

An immigration lawyer told me that I can register a company but I cannot work
for it. But later when I find U.S investors who will own equity in my company
I can ask them to sponsor the transfer of my H1B Visa to my own company.

This doesn't make me thrilled, but hey - it is something. Sitting on my hands
is killing me, so I am moonlighting in the hopes that the lawyer is right, and
that I can find investment using only my moonlighting efforts.

If anyone knows better please let me know.

~~~
MediaSquirrel
talk to a different lawyer. Try these dudes:

Leon Hazany 310-500-5052 leon@hazanylaw.com

Robert Goodman 914-935-0015 rig@rigoodmanlaw.com
<http://www.rigoodmanlaw.com/>

Leon is based in LA and was very helpful when i spoke w him about my co-
founder. Robert is based in NYC and was particularly knowledgeable about tech
and immigration.

also, fyi, ALWAYS TALK TO MULTIPLE LAWYERS, especially when one does not give
you a satisfactory response. Immigration is complex and many are bleeding
heart save-the-poor types who do not understand the biz/startup side of the
equation at all.

Every lawyer will give you 30-60min of their time on the phone for free.
Multiply that by the number of lawyers in the world and you can get A LOT of
legal advice for free.

Good luck!

~~~
bluishgreen
Thank you MediaSquirrel. I sure will talk to other lawyers. But based on your
talks you find the above scenario not feasible?

------
fbnt
I have a slightly different question: considering I have no interest in
emigrating to the States, what if my hypothetical startup gets funded by YC or
any other american early stage venture firm?

Would I be able to incorporate in US and pay taxes accordingly? Can I keep
working from my home country? What are the real, tangible advantages of
running your team in US, other then the favorable startup environment you can
get in places such as the Valley/SF? Are investors much less inclined to
funding foreign teams, does it makes it more troublesome?

Sorry for the loads of questions, but sometimes I fail at understanding why so
many people think is a _must_ to go to the states to get a startup off the
ground.

And thanks to anyone who will take the time to answer.

~~~
dotBen
This probably becomes off-topic to this OP, but the whole point of YC is the
resources and network you get accepted into. And you need to be here for that.

Also, if the idea is to obtain funding during/after the YC program you will
find that VCs will rarely invest in distant companies.

If you don't want to be here for that, even for the duration of the program,
(and really, with the aim of moving here) then YC is probably not for you -
but perhaps there is a similar program locally to you?

(NB: I'm not connected with, nor work for, YC)

------
bombs
Adioso (YC W09), originally Australian, "re-incorporated" in the US.

<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1605659>

~~~
tomhoward
This doesn't allow us to work in the US. We still don't have working visas,
and we spend most of our time back in Australia, coming and going from the US
on Visa Waiver for meetings etc.

~~~
jedwhite
Hey Tom, too long between nights out on Russian Hill :) I can't remember if we
talked about it, but you should look at the E3 visa - no cost for the company,
and relatively straightforward process at the US Consulate in Sydney. The main
gotchas are that you need to show either education or equivalent experience in
a specialised field related to the position you list for, get a Condition of
Labour Application completed, and be paid the going market rate for the
position. It's a special visa for Australians under the US-AUS free trade
agreement, and the number of people who apply each year is way under the
quote. I was told the Melbourne Consulate isn't so straightforward, so do
through Sydney. In the interview they were ok with us basically taking an
australian company and expanding it to the US so long as you are upfront about
what you're doing. If you can find a US board member and have US shareholders
then that seems to count in the interview.

------
moondowner
I was planning to work for a company in the USA via Faculty (Java & Database
stuff), for 4 months - during the summer, and as I was reading, the applicant
gets a J-1 visa (or it was J-2, I can't recall now), but I got another offer
so I didn't go.

My point is, J-1 & J-2 are visas for students, teachers, business trainees,
certain specialists, and more... If YC wants you, maybe you're eligible for
this kind of visa.

------
DirtyAndy
I've also been interested in how they get around this.

Technically on a business tourist visa (forgotten what it is called, but if
you are from the right country you just tick a box on your way in) I think you
are allowed to attend meetings and tradeshows. From an IT perspective I am
pretty sure you are able to do analysis if the aim is then go back to your
home country and do development. But I cannot see how a startup can go there
and actively start a business (although I guess you could argue it is similar
to sitting around a pool on holiday checking a blackberry - big argument, but
there is a case there - it isn't like you are an employee of anyone there).

Entering the US is always a bit painful, but I think when you come from a
country that they don't have a major overstayer problem with then you are
probably OK.

I'd be interested in how people from countries that don't qualify for visa
waiver get on.

~~~
vgurgov
its called b1/b2 and even if you are from country that qualify for waiver you
should get it. it gives you 6m+6m instead of 3month and more.

------
eru
I hope you will get some good answers. Just a short note: Please do not
include HTML-tags in your posts. Thanks!

~~~
faikr
Sorry for that. Don't know where those html-tags came from.

~~~
pmjordan
You should still be able to edit your submission and remove them. For
paragraph breaks, just insert a blank line.

------
marcamillion
I lived in the US for 7 years, did both degrees there and worked in between.

Thoroughly familiar with the immigration system.

The short answer is, without making a 'large' investment (i.e. $500K min) +
showing that you can provide at least 10 jobs in 2 years - you have a steep
climb to be able to stay in the US.

That being said, anyone can register a company - from any country. You can
have the company in the US, register a bank account, get a tax ID, pay taxes,
etc....but unless you are doing a certain amount of business and creating at
least 10 jobs, you can't actually live here.

People will say you can register a company on a student visa (F1), that's BS.
Don't do it. You might not get caught immediately, but it violates the intent
of the student visa - which is a 'non-immigrant student visa'. i.e. you have
no intention of staying in the US. You are just there to work.

The same applies to H1-B, and other work visas. All of those visas are non-
immigrant visas, which means you don't intend to migrate to the US
permanently.

Some people have successfully started a company on F1, but if you ever get
audited by the US Immigration service, there is a very high probability that
you will get deported.

All of that being said, don't worry about it. You can travel to the US on a
visitors visa, or a business visa, for a few months (for e.g. to participate
in YC), and then go home - while still having your company operating in the
US. Once you are big enough, if you sell to a large company, like Facebook or
Google or something, they can do an internal transfer (I believe it is a
J-visa).

Also, there are paths to a green card (family, marriage, or investment) that
given your situation the best would probably be investment once your company
grows enough for you to open an office in the US.

All of that being said, make sure to see an immigration attorney and get good
advice. But more importantly, read the various requirements for yourself -
from the links others have posted here.

Some attorneys might tell you they can get you a green card through an F1 or
H1-B....make sure you know your stuff, and be suspicious.

I have many friends that have told me that they have spoken to attorneys that
assure them they can start a company on an F1 visa. I have spent hundreds of
dollars and visited at least 4 different attorneys (including a past
immigration judge) and they all tell me the same thing. By doing that, you
violate the intent of the law.

~~~
ehsanul
About starting a business on F1: you can do it if you're on OPT and got your
EAD card. Being self-employed is noted as one way to keep your status as an F1
with OPT (as 90 days unemployment means you're out of status), besides getting
a job or volunteering. I'm doing that now myself, after talking to my
international student advisors and a couple lawyers.

Thing is, the business MUST be in a field related to what you studied on your
F1 visa, which is severely limiting.

As for the green card, DO NOT apply for it during your F1, as that's a non-
immigrant single-intent visa. Your purpose is to study and _leave_. However,
the H1-B has a well-established route to a green card (after you work for 6
years or something), as it is a dual-intent visa. I'm not sure about
particulars, but I know many go through this route successfully. No reason to
be suspicious about this if a lawyer mentions it.

~~~
marcamillion
That's definitely wrong.

I can guarantee you, if the USCIS finds that you have registered a company on
your F1, they will likely cancel your visa.

[http://www.uscis.gov/portal/site/uscis/menuitem.eb1d4c2a3e5b...](http://www.uscis.gov/portal/site/uscis/menuitem.eb1d4c2a3e5b9ac89243c6a7543f6d1a/?vgnextoid=e34c83453d4a3210VgnVCM100000b92ca60aRCRD&vgnextchannel=e34c83453d4a3210VgnVCM100000b92ca60aRCRD)

Employment

F-1 students may not work off-campus during the first academic year, but may
accept on-campus employment subject to certain conditions and restrictions.
There are various programs available for F-1 students to seek off-campus
employment, after the first academic year. F-1 students may engage in three
types of off-campus employment, after they have studying for one academic
year.

These three types of employment are:

Curricular Practical Training (CPT) Optional Practical Training (OPT) (pre-
completion or post-completion) Science, Technology, Engineering, and
Mathematics (STEM) Optional Practical Training Extension (OPT)

Optional Practical Training is for you to get a job in your field. That's it.
Not start a company.

Edit: Ok...I take that back. You can't do it, if you want to stay in the good
graces of USCIS and stay in the US. If you don't mind being deported...then
you most definitely can. Nothing is stopping you - once you have an SSN.

~~~
eduardo_f
Wrong. Read the OPT Policy Guidance, section 7.2.1:

All OPT employment, including post-completion OPT, must be in a job that is
related to the student’s degree program. For students who are not on a
17-month extension, this employment may include: (...) Self-employed business
owner. A student on OPT may start a business and be self-employed. The student
must be able to prove that he or she has the proper business licenses and is
actively engaged in a business related to the student’s degree program.

------
mgh2
What about the EB-5 visa? (The Entrepreneur's Visa)

The specifics of the visa are: 1\. Each year 10,000 entrepreneurs allowed into
the US. 2\. The entrepreneur has to attract investment of 1 million. 3\. In
which after he attains this, he is granted with a 2 year period of
'probation'. 4\. In these 2 years, he has to create at least 10 full time
American jobs and make a revenue or attract an additional 1 million dollars.
5\. If this is achieved, he will be granted a green card. If not, he has to go
back.

So my questions are:

A. I know it seems impossible, but how many foreign entrepreneurs actually can
achieve this? Are there numbers of how many get this type of visa each year?

B. When is the EB-6 visa coming out? (Same visa but only with 1/2
requirements)

~~~
mgh2
For more info go to: <http://startupvisa.com/>

------
suthakamal
If you enter the US on a B2 business visitor visa, after being in the country
for 60 days you can petition in writing for an Adjustment of Status to change
your visa to another type. You can remain in the US under the terms of the B2
until you get a reply to your petition, even if it is after the 90 day
expiration of the B2.

Note that the above is true for canadians. Ymmv for other nationalities.

~~~
dotBen
I don't think this is correct. NEVER stay in the US longer than the duration
of your visa on your i94 under ANY circumstances. Even if it's day 89 and the
airport is closed for bad weather you _must_ drive to the border (or whatever)
to leave otherwise next time you come back into the country it will be picked
up and you can get deported + bared from entering US.

PLEASE get legal advice if this is your situation.

(source: I'm a foreign national working in US on a visa, having spent a lot of
time + money with my visa lawyer on this issue. I also have a startup investor
friend who went over his visa duration and is barred from entering the US
again.)

~~~
suthakamal
If you overstay your visa, then you're absolutely right, you're in for a world
of trouble.

However, ONCE you have entered the US on a B2, you can file an I-539 to permit
you to extend your stay and apply to change your status to another class of
visa.

As it happens, this is precisely the process I've gone through to go from B2
-> TN-1.

That said: Ben's right that you should seek legal counsel from an immigration
attorney on all things related to the visa process.

~~~
dotBen
So I have a TN (as it happens). If you are looking to get a TN as a Canadian
citizen _(rather than Mexican, different rules apply for them)_ you can
actually apply for a TN at any airport (not just via Canada). This is a little
known fact.

The advice given to me was just to take a trip somewhere and come back into
the country to get the TN rather than apply for an AoS with the DHS (which can
take ages to process - they are not really incentivized to process it with a
short turnover).

I got my most recent TN at SFO in secondary checking, it was trivial (assuming
you qualify + your paperwork is in order, etc).

------
kareemm
Surprised nobody has mentioned the O-1 visa for "aliens of extraordinary
ability":

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/O-1_visa>

AFAIK, a couple of non-US citizens have gotten them to work in the US on YC
(the Auctomatic guys). I know DHH was on one to work for 37S.

------
hippich
non residents can open company in most if not all states. once entity is
created - anyone can fund it. you just can't be hired by this company and be
US resident in the same time. But you can be on US territory to sign
contracts, or you can work for company while being out of US land.

but after going through work visa i can say it's doable, but really complex if
you are not from "good" country, like canada, australia, etc. =)

------
kgthegreat
This site has some info <http://startupvisa.com/about/>

~~~
ojbyrne
"We hope to have one or both of these bills formally presented to Congress
sometime later this year."

~~~
jrockway
So in another 15 years, there will be subsidies for startups that grow corn?

------
switch
apply for a hsmp visa in UK or canadian permanent residence.

Most of the advice in this thread - except for the first two - alain and
tololRon - is very very dangerous - it'll get you barred from US forever if
you try some of the stunts recommended.

------
diehell
Does YC consider funding an idea for a startup with non-US resident founders?

~~~
lewstherin
It says so on their faq page which is why I have applied :)

------
impeachgod
So thus we have a good reason to have more women founders - immigrant hacker-
startup guys are usually male. Thus, they can just marry their US-citizen
startup cofounders.

~~~
dotBen
Or we all push for marriage equality so that LGBT folks can marry too, with
full federal recognition including immigration status for the other partner.

------
vgurgov
I am not YC founder, so i dont know how YC do that. But technically everyone
can come to US, register a company and work for it. Its YOUR company, so no
prob here.

Although you might need to come back to your country every 6 months or so.

Edit: Surprised to see so many comments and and downvotes from "experts" for
that. Get business/tourist (b1/b2). You are not working you are considering
investing in US- one of the simples rules to remember when crossing border-
and there are many others.

~~~
duke_sam
There is a visa (It's one of the E visas) for people bringing capital into the
states but you it's not a trivial amount and you need to prove that you will
employ a certain number of Americans.

~~~
eduardoflores
Info on the E1 (trader) and E2 (investor) on the US Embassy in Mexico
<http://www.usembassy-mexico.gov/eng/evisas_E.html>

Highlights for the investor visa: \- The investor must be coming to the United
States solely to develop and direct the enterprise \- The investment must be
substantial. It must be sufficient to ensure the successful operation of the
enterprise \- must have the capacity to generate significantly more income
than just enough to provide a living to the investor and his or her family, or
it must have a significant economic impact in the United States

I'm not sure if a YC funded founder would be elegible, but seems hard

~~~
mdda
I've been running my own business in the US on an E-2 visa for the last 12
years. The minimum recommended initial investment is of the order of $100,000
- and a majority the E-2 company must be owned by citizens of the non-US
'treaty country'.

Rough guide to application : 0.5-1.0 inch thick.

------
yardie
Okay, first things first. Apply for a greencard. I know it's a long process,
it's expensive, and it's very invasive but do this first. People assume they
don't qualify and don't even bother asking. But the US still has the highest
immigration of all countries, only the UK is a distant 2nd. So obviously,
people are getting in everyday.

Now, contact the US embassy in your country. Get all your paperwork together,
set an appointment, pay the fees, and wait. Depending on the country you are
coming from can be the difference between success and failure. Each country
has quotas and some are filled immediately (Mexico, for example) and some go
unmet (Switzerland, because no one ever leaves switzerland)

So do all the paperwork, fill in the envelope and mail it, and wait. That's
all you really can do.

~~~
jbarham
This is lousy advice. It's not as if just anyone can "apply for a green card".
You need to have a sponsor who is either a relative and US citizen, or you are
already employed by a US company on a work visa and they are willing to
sponsor your green card application. (I am in the second category.)

Even if you have an employer willing to sponsor your green card application,
the preliminary paperwork can take over a year before you're officially in the
green card pipeline. How long you have to wait depends on your country of
origin. Canadians can expect to wait at least two years, Indians and Chinese
five years or more. But the kicker is that if you lose your job or change
companies while you're in the pipeline, _the whole process restarts_! (Unless
you're in the final stage, but that's comparatively short compared to the
whole process.) That is, if you can find a new job. If you can't, you have to
leave the US.

The US is unique among western countries in not have a way for skilled
immigrants to get into the country unless they first have a sponsor. The US
work visa program effectively creates a class of indentured laborers as their
continued residency in the US is entirely dependent on their employers.

~~~
mynegation
For Canadians, there's also TN-1 visa, which is a simplified way to get a work
permit for a year. It has limitations compared to H1-B in terms of
occupations, but it is much simpler to get. You need to have a letter from the
company stating that they intend to employ you.

Now, how that relates to startups and whether your own corporation can sponsor
you - I honestly do not know.

~~~
jbarham
Sure, TN is easy to get (I've had it) but there are two major restrictions:

1\. You _cannot apply for a green card_ on TN visa 2\. It has to be renewed
annually, and you have to demonstrate continued strong ties to Canada (bank
accounts, family, etc.), so US immigration would no doubt get suspicious if
you kept renewing

~~~
kareemm
> You cannot apply for a green card on TN visa

Actually, you can:

<http://www.naftatnlawyer.com/applying-for-green-card-tn-st/>

> It has to be renewed annually

There's a 3 year TN now:

[http://www.naftatnlawyer.com/nafta-tn-
blog/2008/10/16/three-...](http://www.naftatnlawyer.com/nafta-tn-
blog/2008/10/16/three-year-tn-rule-approved.html)

If you're Canadian, I suggest subscribing to the Grasmick.com newsletter and
poking around the site. Lots of good info there.

~~~
dotBen
_If you're Canadian, I suggest subscribing to the Grasmick.com newsletter_

Not sure if the _newsletter_ is up to date but I noticed that the most recent
items on Grasmick.com's News section dates back to 2001!

The world of immigration into the US has really changed quite a bit since
2001, post-9/11 especially. For a start the INS doesn't even exist anymore and
was replaced with the DHS.

So if the rest of his information is from this era and pre-DHS then it's
pretty much worthless.

~~~
kareemm
The newsletter is indeed up to date. For example, it's where I learned about
the new 3 year TN back when it was approved in Oct 08.

For some silly reason he's basically abandoned the website and what used to be
incredibly helpful forums.

