
Chinese are big customers for schemes selling foreign residency - La-ang
https://www.economist.com/china/2019/07/18/chinese-are-big-customers-for-schemes-selling-foreign-residency
======
roywiggins
Our "First Son-in-Law" has his little hands in this game, too.

> the Kushners' company held an event at a ritzy hotel in Beijing to encourage
> Chinese investments for a development project in New Jersey.

> "Invest $500,000 and immigrate to the United States," read a brochure at the
> event...

> A spokesperson for Kushner Companies later apologized for the poor optics,
> but just two months later, CNN reported that the business was again invoking
> Kushner's status as a senior White House aide to attract investors.

[https://www.businessinsider.com/sec-launches-probe-into-
kush...](https://www.businessinsider.com/sec-launches-probe-into-kushner-
companies-for-use-of-eb-5-visa-program-2018-1)

~~~
oh_sigh
What's wrong with that? It's not like that is a secret program that only
Kusher has access to. Anyone (with the money) can invest $500k and come live
in the US.

~~~
roywiggins
"invoking Kushner's status as a senior White House aide to attract investors"
sure makes it look like they're trying to use Jared Kushner's position as a
_paid White House aide_ to gain a competitive advantage. When you have two
possible EB-5 investment opportunities, and one advertises its a direct line
to a senior White House official, which one do you choose?

How long would Google keep around a senior executive if he was running a side-
business in SEO?

~~~
jlawson
I want to know what that "invoking" sentence actually means. What exactly did
Kushner actually say? Either he did something possibly illegal, or the media
is attempting to leave the reader believing a damaging lie without actually
saying something they can get called out on. We'd need the original quotes to
know which. Until then, we can of course each just assume the reality confirms
our prior beliefs.

~~~
roywiggins
> Meyer, the sister of Jared Kushner, was speaking at an event in which she
> was trying to attract wealthy Chinese investors to the 1 Journal Square
> project.

> During the presentation, Meyer reminded investors of her brother's recent
> role in American politics: "In 2008, my brother Jared Kushner joined the
> family company as CEO," Meyer told a crowd, adding he "recently moved to
> Washington to join the administration."

> The comments coincided with a visual display, which included a photograph of
> Trump.

[https://www.cnn.com/2017/07/20/politics/draft-kushner-
visas/...](https://www.cnn.com/2017/07/20/politics/draft-kushner-
visas/index.html)

~~~
jlawson
Okay, so an innocuous display of generalized status. No indication Kushner
would do anything (through any kind of back channel or otherwise) to use his
position to aid these investors. No indication he _has_ done anything of the
sort.

Pretty much as I expected; media telling the truth to leave you believing a
lie.

------
Tiktaalik
> But Canada closed its federal programme in 2014 (some provincial schemes,
> such as Quebec’s, continue).

Only mentioned as an aside, but for Vancouverites, this has been very painful.

Uniquely Quebec manages its own immigration (let's not get into it) and they
have an investor immigration scheme that essentially sells citizenship for a
pittance. Of course since persons have freedom of movement there's nothing
stopping persons who buy citizenship in Quebec for moving to Vancouver, which
almost all of them do.

Accordingly while British Columbia has enacted various foreign investor taxes
to try to limit the distortions from foreign money on the real estate market,
there remain significant impacts of foreign wealth in Vancouver and BC.

Sadly federal politicians aren't in much of a rush to annoy the Quebec
government by playing hardball on this issue as Canada has an election coming
up and Quebec has heaps of seats in play.

~~~
jseliger
If we only had a technology that could be used to build more housing units on
a given plot of land, we could probably build as many housing units as people
want to buy. Until such technologies emerge from the land of science fiction,
we'll be stuck with shortages, because the problems are really technical, not
legal.

[https://www.vox.com/a/new-economy-future/urban-sprawl-
housin...](https://www.vox.com/a/new-economy-future/urban-sprawl-housing-
costs-solutions-elevators)

~~~
Tiktaalik
Perhaps this sort of sarcastic comment would make sense if we're talking about
SF which doesn't build, but we're talking about Vancouver, which actually
builds quite a bit of housing, and is currently building multi-unit housing at
unprecedented levels not seen in the last 30 years.

The big problem of course that there are real physical limits to the rate of
housing development where people have to touch the process eg. inspections,
design, labour limits and so 'just add more supply' isn't really a solution
when the limited supply you can build are for-sale condos literally being
directly marketed overseas and out of the grasp of locals with mere local
incomes (Vancouver has pretty much the lowest median income of major Canadian
cities).

~~~
jseliger
Do you know anything about supply and demand, or Vancouver, at all? Much of
the city is still zoned for single-family only:
[https://www.thestar.com/vancouver/2019/01/01/2019-could-
be-t...](https://www.thestar.com/vancouver/2019/01/01/2019-could-be-the-year-
vancouver-gets-rid-of-single-family-zoning.html). To call this madness is an
understatement.

~~~
Tiktaalik
Yeah the remaining single family (actually duplex now) zoning hasn't been a
restriction on development. In the last several years the City of Vancouver
took significant parcels of that SFH area such as Cambie, Marpole, and Norquay
and up zoned it to allow for high rise and mid rise residential.

Like I said, Vancouver isn't SF. Even with areas of the city untouched by
redevelopment, there's still thousands upon thousands of units in the pipeline
being developed in the areas the city has up zoned over the last 10 years.
That's just the CoV proper, never mind the huge amounts of development next
door in all the surrounding cities.

On top of this, Metro Vancouver is still a young enough that there's massive
areas of untouched brownfield and greenfield that are being redeveloped as
well, such as Jericho, NEFC and the Squamish lands around Vanier Park.

------
dev_dull
Maybe an unpopular opinion, but I think the $500k investment is a great idea.
Why is it in our interest for that money to be invested elsewhere?

I also think we should staple green-cards to the back of people who receive
higher-education degrees in the united states.

Unfortunately our immigration system rewards the rule-breakers and encourages
people to lie. Like many things in life, the honest people get hosed.

~~~
addicted
While I agree with most of what you say, I'm struggling to see how rule
breakers get rewarded.

For the most part pretty much everyone in the immigration system gets screwed,
other than the wealthiest, whether they buy their residency, or they hire the
workers who are either here illegally or legally.

~~~
dev_dull
Applying for asylum after illegally crossing the border versus applying for
asylum before entering the USA.

~~~
CptFribble
When would refugees fleeing violence with only the clothes on their backs find
the time and money to pop into an internet cafe and fill out the application?

Or do border guards have a stack of asylum application forms to hand out at
crossings?

~~~
dev_dull
If you apply for asylum at a port of entry you can be denied entry according
to the law. If you wait until you’ve illegally crossed into the USA our laws
make it very hard to be deported.

I don’t blame or judge anyone. Like I said the laws reward those who break the
law and punish those who try and follow the law.

------
introvertmac
Peter Thiel wrote about it back in 2014 in his book, Zero to One.

We have a different image of China and China has done a great job posing as
next superpower but the reality is very different on the ground.

Rich Chinese want to get away from China by paying whatever price they can
afford, this is not surprising at all!

~~~
paulsutter
China really is the next superpower AND some Chinese are interested in having
a lily pad outside China that they can hop to.

No conflict between these. Lots of Americans have second passports, including
Peter Thiel.

~~~
z2
A nuance here is that China's nationality laws forbid dual-citizenship and
border officials have been (anecdotally) cracking down on it in recent years.
There are a lot of grey areas in enforcement, and I'm not sure how it would
play out for the rich and powerful, but the general idea is that once you get
a second passport, the first one ceases to exist, along with one's hukou,
right to property and capital, etc.

Thus, as with other countries that don't allow dual citizenship (e.g., Japan,
India, Austria, Malaysia, Singapore) getting another nationality is probably a
stronger exit signal.

Of course, most schemes start by giving permanent residency, which is
different and sort of the best of both worlds.

~~~
f00_
The US doesn't allow dual-citizenship either right?

My girlfriend and her family have Taiwanese, Chinese and US
citizenship/passports though. Wonder how that works

~~~
CharlesColeman
> The US doesn't allow dual-citizenship either right?

The US allows dual citizenship: [https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/dual-
citizenship-all...](https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/dual-citizenship-
allowed-naturalizing-us-citizens.html)

> The United States will not ask naturalizing citizens to take any steps to
> formally renounce the citizenship of their home country. Nor will it stop
> U.S. citizens from later adopting citizenship in another country – though if
> their intention is to give up U.S. citizenship, they can certainly do so.
> You may continue to vote in your home country, if it allows it.

> All this does not mean that the U.S. will tolerate divided loyalties. Dual
> citizens must obey U.S. laws, uphold the U.S. Constitution, and in every
> other way adhere to the naturalization oath that they take. They are also
> required by the I.N.A. to carry their U.S. passport when leaving the U.S.,
> and to present it upon reentry.

~~~
dmurray
There's a bit of doublespeak going on here. What could they mean by "take any
steps to formally renounce their citizenship" that doesn't include (from the
naturalization oath):

> I absolutely and entirely renounce and abjure all allegiance and fidelity to
> any foreign prince, potentate, state, or sovereignty of whom or which I have
> heretofore been a subject or citizen;...

They won't require you to formally tell the other country you are renouncing
it, which is good enough for practical purposes, since most other countries
don't allow you to renounce your citizenship simply by telling some US
bureaucrat you renounce and abjure it.

~~~
techsupporter
What the State Department (probably, I don't work for them) means is that
naturalizing as a United States citizen may be done with no input from a
person's other country of citizenship. Contrast with, for example, Germany,
wherein a naturalization certificate may not be delivered to an applicant
before the applicant shows that he or she affirmatively renounced any other
citizenships or received permission from the German government to proceed with
naturalization absent that step being taken.

------
selimthegrim
As is usual in cases like these, NOLA had their number.

[http://america.aljazeera.com/articles/2015/1/30/chinas-
louis...](http://america.aljazeera.com/articles/2015/1/30/chinas-louisiana-
purchase-new-orleans-own-battle-of-algiers.html)

I remain profoundly ashamed that Al Jazeera rather than an American or local
news outlet had to break this story.

~~~
aatharuv
Huh. On the freeway (CA-84) in the SF Bay Area, I keep on seeing an ad for
some seminar on H1-B to EB-5 (with Bobby Jindal headlining as a speaker). I
wonder if it's related, other than (presumably) being a conduit to invest in
Louisiana.

(Lots of people on H1-B's especially from India want a faster path to get a
green card rather than be stuck in limbo for decades..

------
coolspot
It is large industry. More than one of my acquaintances got their green card
and then citizenship by paying $20-$30k for fake marriage to a US citizen.

~~~
damnyou
Another frame: your acquaintances were frustrated at how hard it is to
immigrate and figured out a workaround. I strongly believe in freedom of
movement so any legal or extra-legal means to do so are all right in my book.

Rules are meant to be bent. Laws are meant to be broken.

~~~
filoleg
>I strongly believe in freedom of movement so any legal or extra-legal means
to do so are all right in my book.

>Laws are meant to be broken.

Those two statements sound a bit conflicting to me. Also, I don’t know how one
can call green card marriage fraud “bending the rules” or a “workaround”. It
is literally lying to USCIS in order to obtain a green card under false
pretenses.

~~~
damnyou
If they are legally married then how is it fraud? The entire idea of marriage
fraud is bogus — it's just another invention used to justify state violence
against a disfavored group. Marriages exist in all shapes and forms, many more
than the state can think of.

For example USCIS apparently puts some people through interviews where they
ask for intimate personal details of the spouse, like what side of the bed
they sleep on or the color of the toothbrush they use. This implies a
particular definition of marriage — one where you sleep on the same bed and
use the same bathroom. Yet I know plenty of happily married folks who have
generally separate lives, including having separate intimate relationships.
That doesn't make their marriages any less valid!

~~~
filoleg
>For example USCIS apparently puts some people through interviews where they
ask for intimate personal details of the spouse, like what side of the bed
they sleep on or the color of the toothbrush they use. This implies a
particular definition of marriage — one where you sleep on the same bed and
use the same bathroom.

They aren’t looking for a “particular definition of marriage.” They are
looking for inconsistencies and divergences between what each partner says,
thus trying to catch them lying. I heavily doubt they will call your marriage
fraudulent just because you and your partner don’t share the same bed.

~~~
damnyou
I've heard very different things, sorry. Folks getting harassed and their
marriages questioned for not fitting into white, monogamous,
cisheteronormative definitions.

------
rootsudo
This has always been a common theme in Asia/South East Asia and is nothing
new.

The biggest barriers are:

1\. Money/Income 2\. Language. 3\. Education.

You can't fit in if you don't know the language, or literate. That's what
makes Student visas so valuable, because it can give an anchor to an family to
move abroad.

Education, you can't survive abroad w/o income and this is usually hand in
hand w/ a degree.

Money, well, money is good everywhere.

~~~
theflyinghorse
> You can't fit in if you don't know the language or literature

I would invite you to visit Richmond BC which happens to be majority Asian (on
top of my head 72% +) and majority of that Chinese. A Chinese national moving
to Richmond would not struggle too much without English language.

Why did you mention literature at all?

~~~
munk-a
A lot of metro-area services that extend into Richmond don't have chinese
language support, and moving to a neighboring city will present a number of
issues as signage very quickly drops off to english only once you cross the
Fraser. Additionally interactions with officials are likely quite stressful if
you're very weak in english - the local Services BC almost certainly has quite
good language coverage, but law enforcement would be hit or miss - ditto with
emergency services (Ambulance, Hospital, Fire).

Lastly, if you're going for residency or citizenship then you'll need solid
english or french comprehension, and you'll likely be going through the
downtown vancouver citizenship office.

------
BooneJS
Our son used to go to a HS in the east bay where foreign nationals would pay
residents of the high school to essentially adopt their kid so they could
enroll, take every AP and Honors class possible, and get into a UC campus.

It’s crazy. We actually hated the public schools and moved away.

~~~
thenewwazoo
That's interesting, back east we called those kids "exchange students" and
they were generally academically excellent, as well as adding to the diversity
of the student body. And then they did well and got into US universities where
they would presumably continue to excel academically.

I fail to see the problem.

~~~
BooneJS
I remember foreign exchange students coming for a year, and they were never
adopted by the host family. I guess the Midwest was different than your
experience.

------
ycombonator
And so are US birth hotels. [https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/feds-raid-l-
maternity-h...](https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/feds-raid-l-maternity-
hotel-birth-tourists-n315996)

------
rb808
The dumb thing is how cheap these go for. If you had to pay 500k for a
passport it would make sense.

Investing 500k costs very little. You'll likely make more money than if you
bought Chinese real estate. Even if you have to borrow 500k its only going to
cost you ~10-20k a year.

~~~
Qasaur
As far as I understand the specific law in question, you are disqualified for
a investment residency if the money you are using to invest is borrowed from
someone else.

------
Balgair
Aside: A lot of comments here mention various methods of paying for various
citizenships. Most of them seem somewhat derisive about these pay for a
passport schemes, so to speak.

But, hold up, isn't this a move in the right direction? Sure, it's all 'rich'
people that can do this right now, but having people from lots of different
countries moving about, having 'table stakes' in many countries, and generally
putting cash into these places, that seems to be a 'good' thing to me. Sure,
yeah, it could be a lot better for even us proles. But the world being such a
place where these 'schemes' can happen at all seems like it's a good thing.

------
rainhacker
An interesting related incident regarding the role of EB-5 in the financing of
Hudson Yards was a top HN post[1] not too long ago.

> Manhattan’s new luxury mega-project was partially bankrolled by an investor
> visa program called EB-5, which was meant to help poverty-stricken areas

[1]
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19644880](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19644880)

------
chaostheory
The reasons for this are obvious:

1\. Money laundering i.e. How can Chinese government officials embezzle tax
money and keep it? Buy real estate overseas and have your family live in them.

2\. Tax evasion. Buy real estate overseas and have your family live in them.

The education angle makes sense, but imo it's not the main reason.

~~~
jseliger
You're missing the most obvious reason that's far more important: Anyone smart
and Chinese knows that there's a very decent chance that the system collapses
and/or the government steals all your money and possibly your life. In the US
and Canada, it's extremely uncommon for the government to steal a rich
person's money and even life, and it virtually never happens without a public
trial.

Anyone smart, Chinese, and with resources is looking for a way to not be
subject to Chinese legal/government jurisdiction, and if you were in China,
you'd be doing the same.

~~~
chaostheory
I agree. China has little rule of law. It runs mainly on nepotism now even
more than pre-XJ. That said, I'm still guessing that most of this money was
made illicitly.

------
yandie
Non paywall and non-ad version:
[https://outline.com/GAF5BU](https://outline.com/GAF5BU)

~~~
kragen
I don't see any text at that link.

------
j7ake
One solution to this is to improve the visa situations for Chinese nationals.
If it weren’t such a pain to travel to western countries with a chinese
passport there may be less demand for these foreign residency schemes.

~~~
seanmcdirmid
That isn’t really why they get residency, it’s more of a hedge on the Chinese
government, you never know when it will come down on you for a good or bad
reason.

