
Foursquare Merges with Factual - leothekim
https://www.wsj.com/articles/foursquare-merges-with-factual-another-location-data-provider-11586193000
======
mangoman
Back in college I used to love Foursquare (about 9 years ago). It was fun,
lightweight, addicting (competing to be 'mayor' of my apartment building).
Actually I feel like all social media was fun back then. When they split off
the actual fun part into it's own app, I knew the fun was just dead. Sure
Swarm was more polished, but I didn't really understand why would I move out
to another app to do what I was already doing in the Foursquare app. I think a
better product owner could have kept it unified somehow.

But alas, Foursquare simply had no way of making money. The often quoted 'How
Not to Die' by pg seems especially relevant to foursquare. Compare the company
they started out as, to the company they are now. They may not have 'died',
but they sure as hell aren't the same company, product, or userbase. They
figured how to not die by pulling a Ship of Theseus, replacing fun with
features, features with ads, replacing ads with 'tools'.

Is there a way for social media to stay fun and profitable? I guess Instagram
is probably the closest thing to staying fun, though for some reason I never
latched on to Instagram. Perhaps it's focus on vanity never really resonated
with me. When I think of goofy fun, I don't think of Instagram - Instagram is
for the beautiful and that's not what I think of myself as.

Reading the line 'Foursquare is No. 1 when it comes to attribution and ad
effectiveness, when it comes to app developer tools' is so the opposite of
what I considered Foursquare to be when I used it.

~~~
arkanciscan
As a long time Foursquare user who switched to Swarm I can say it's still the
same FourSquare it always was. It's just as "fun" as it ever was. It's awkward
to have two apps on my phone and I hate that product decision too, but it's
better than them killing off the check-in feature altogether. That's what
Google would have done.

~~~
mastre_
There are almost no badges in the new app, useless coins (at least if you
could upgrade your badges with them as back in the day).. I fail to see how
it's the same "fun" as it ever was. I have a few friends that still use it
religiously, one day I plan on thinking deeply about what these people have in
common because on the surface they seem rather random -- some are
technologists, some aren't; all of them are 30+.

I think there is a _lot_ to be done in the field. As with anything these days
it would most likely require a large effort with sizable investment, but I
think it's an area that's grossly overlooked.

~~~
chipotle_coyote
I still use it and I'm well over 30. I can't speak to your friends, but I like
the history of where I've been. I love driving and finding new places -- at
least, back when things were open, remember when there were cafés and stuff?
-- and, on the flip side, I (used to) go out to eat for most meals and could
fall into regular patterns, and sometimes checking Swarm to remind me that,
yes, I _had_ been to such-and-such place twice already this month could kick
me into trying something new.

Making the coins utterly useless irritates me, though, and I'm kind of
surprised they dropped the whole notion of partnering with businesses to offer
specials to regular customers they had in the pre-Swarm days. While I presume
they pivoted into selling location data because the partnerships just didn't
make them enough money, I'd hope the partnerships weren't _losing_ them money,
and I think they really drove usage.

~~~
mastre_
> but I like the history of where I've been

This is kinda the deep down reason I still use it. I sort of passively compete
with the friends that use it, especially when I'm traveling, since I get to
check into a ton of new stuff. The list of friends that use it is _very_
static. It's been the same group for _years_ now, w/o a single new person (and
I don't think anyone's dropped). We're not close friends either. All in all,
it's a fascinating experience in that regard.

~~~
kelnos
I hadn't thought about that, but my experience is the same: no discernible
changes to my Swarm friends in _years_.

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chadlavi
It's sad how many mistakes they've made with foursquare along the way. The
checkin thing was fun, then they moved the only fun part of the app to a
mostly neglected junk drawer secondary app (Swarm) and turned the name brand
app into just another yelp.

Now it seems it's just going to double/triple-down on the data mining part,
and there's no clear indication of what value this adds to the user.

The only thing I really use Swarm for is to keep a little calendar-integrated
diary of places I've been (with an IFTTT), but I can do all this myself much
simpler and with less data mining. So long, 4SQ.

~~~
whoisjuan
The original 4SQ was awesome, but it was also absolutely non-viable (no
business model whatsoever, besides selling branded badges to advertisers).

Putting aside the nature of their current business, I really admire 4SQ
ability to pivot and re-invent itself several times, while keeping beloved
functionality like the check-in (even if it’s through another app).

This is a company that by all measures should have died in any of those past
struggles. They even had a couple of down rounds. And somehow they managed to
overcome all those dead-ends.

Very few startups have done that, and I can’t think of a single one that did
it at 4SQ’s scale.

~~~
chadlavi
Yeah, as a business they've been amazingly resilient. I just wish the product
was still fun/worthwhile.

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gkoberger
(EDIT: Hmm, WSJ frames it as a Foursquare merging into Factual, but both
companies are framing it as Foursquare "purchasing" Factual.
[https://www.factual.com/blog/factual-joins-
foursquare/](https://www.factual.com/blog/factual-joins-foursquare/))

I started using Foursquare the day it launched over a decade ago, and still
check in to every single place I go... and I don't know why. It might
literally be the only habit I actually have. I love having a log of everything
I've done over the past decade, it's amazing. It's also so great to see where
people I know have been in random countries or cities. It makes the world feel
a lot smaller.

I was glad they found a way to monetize it with data, and I really really hope
Swarm never goes away :) Great job Dennis and team!

~~~
monksy
Just turn on Google location services. If you want to see where you've been
and when, it'll show up on google maps timeline.

I like using that to find out where I've been overseas.

~~~
gkoberger
There's a signal vs noise issue, and it doesn't feel intentional. I add
comments and photos, I mention who I'm with, etc. I much prefer Swarm over
Google.

(And, not really the point, but I trust Swarm with my data more than Google,
even though I know Google already has it...)

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code4tee
The business model of these companies seems in question long term given that
they rely heavily on location data “opted in” from users that honestly
probably didn’t realize they “opted in” to share their data for such uses.

As more efforts continue (by Apple, Firefox and others) to crack down on that
sort of thing the proportion of reality represented by the data such companies
hope to sell gets smaller and smaller.

It’s increasingly not “people shop here” but “people with bad privacy settings
on their device shop here.”

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kndjckt
I love foursquare so much. I still use it all the time and in every country I
visit. The community is unique and always delivers solid recommendations.
There's much less noise when compared with yelp, tripadvisor, and google.

~~~
sonar_un
I use Swarm a lot and it has been invaluable for me to remember places that I
have been to. I use it all of the time to remember what places are worth
returning to and to tell my friends who are looking for recommendations in
certain cities.

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Touche
How crazy is it that at one point there were 5 or 6 check-in apps, it was all
the rage and now there is essentially 1 (which itself is neglected). There
were startups that were getting serious funding with the hopes of being 3rd
place in the check-in category.

~~~
CPLX
I mean Instagram is, in many ways, a check-in app, and is spectacularly
successful.

~~~
Touche
Sure, if you stretch it far enough every social network is in some way a
check-in app.

~~~
CPLX
Right. But they weren’t when Foursquare launched, and now they are.

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codingslave
The main business model of these two firms is quickly becoming selling
location data to hedge funds. This needs to be illegal.

~~~
cpitman
I've really appreciated that Android has started telling me when apps are
pulling my location in the background. Every once in a while I am ok with that
application doing it, but for the vast majority I immediately disable that
app's location access.

After a couple weeks, I'm much more confident that my location data isn't
leaking all over the place.

~~~
dumbfounder
They don't need gps location shared to know where you are. They can get this
data via sniffing wifi and bluetooth devices in the area (including other
phones) and knowing where those devices are.

~~~
driverdan
That's not what they were referring to. Android alerts you when an app tries
to access location data in the background and allows you to disable it.

There's a system-wide setting to disable app access to BT and wifi location
data.

~~~
dumbfounder
Turning off gps based location data provides a false sense of security, which
is the point I was trying to make. There are other ways to get your location
that are nearly as easy and precise. I don't know anything about disabling app
access to BT and wifi location data, what does that mean exactly? Is it
disabling the ability for apps to sniff nearby devices?

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dmix
Where does Factual get their data from? They've got tons of big name partners,
who I assume share it with them, then combine it to get a wider view:

[https://www.factual.com/company/partners/](https://www.factual.com/company/partners/)

Since Foursquare seems to be caring less about their consumer-facing products
I'm guessing they'll shift more towards a collection + analytics style
product? Where they integrate with other popular apps instead of collecting
their own data.

But I'm just speculating.

~~~
soared
Factual is probably the biggest vendor for selling user location data and
audience targeting for advertising, and I would imagine adding in foursquare
creates lots of new possibilities for both companies.

~~~
texasbigdata
It would be nice to get a full list. Just phone apps?

------
andrewacove
I lived in New York for a good chunk of Foursquare's life, and while it was
magical, at least half of the population hated the concept, for good reason.
Every woman I knew who had used it was terrified by the privacy and safety
risks engendered by making their location public. The ones who did check in
somewhere would typically only do it as or after they'd left. The "magical
power" to see through walls that Dennis touted was a nightmare for women, who
already deal with constant harassment and stalkers in the city. Which was a
shame, because it really could feel magical to meet up with friends because of
where you'd checked in.

For a while, Foursquare also had the most reliable review data – or at least
its users tastes better aligned with mine. It was refreshing to get useful
content about a restaurant without reading through paragraphs of self-
indulgent drivel on Yelp. But after the launch of Swarm, the reviews more or
less rotted over time.

The founders of Foursquare got to take a lot of money off the table in a
relatively early round, ($8M each? Series C?), which is something I'd love to
get the present perspective on from investors and employees who were there
along the way.

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jboggan
Whoa! Congrats to Gil and the rest of the team back at Factual. I'm eternally
grateful to them for giving this ex-bioinformatician a shot and starting my
career as a data engineer, I learned from some of the very best. They were
doing some brilliant stuff, both from a technical standpoint and an
organizational standpoint, so I am glad to see them continuing forward!

Gil is also responsible for bringing Google to LA when they bought his
previous company Applied Semantics so he had a lot of cultural imprint on that
office as well.

~~~
elwell
+1 for Clojure companies

~~~
arobbins
They aren't much of a Clojure company at this point. Also laid off most of the
remaining Clojure devs today.

~~~
elwell
Sorry to hear

------
product50
Apple needs to deprecate IDFAs and the business models of all these location
tracking apps will come crumbling down. If you can't identify users, then the
point is moot.

~~~
godzillabrennus
Doing that basically hands whatever is left of retail after this coronavirus
to Amazon.

Brick and mortar has so few tools to compete comparatively. The big guys even
buy our data from equifax/transunion to improve marketing efforts.

~~~
product50
This is never a good argument. We can't let these smaller companies completely
flout all privacy/tracking rules just so that they can sustain. The model is
broken to start with.

~~~
godzillabrennus
No one is flouting a privacy rule.

You are talking about a group of people using freeware in exchange for their
data.

No need to disable the functionality as it’s entirely opt in.

~~~
product50
It is fine. You need to educate yourself more on how companies like Factual
get their hands on location data. If you think Facebook flouted privacy rules,
you haven't seen anything yet.

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duxup
I was just thinking about Foursquare when I crossed a foot bridge I (and
others) used to check in at all the time.

I remember liking it and then they turned into something(s) else and I'm
pretty sure I remember not really understanding what they were supposed to be
and I sort of gave up / couldn't figure out why it got so much media talking
head attention after that and then ... I don't think I heard anything about it
again.

The whole process of "Do a neat thing that isn't really profitable (or at
least not a unicorn profitable), then pivot into something else / away from
users." thing happens time and again.

Honestly I think I try / don't install as many apps anymore because of such
things.

~~~
morley
For me, the Foursquare of today is a more accurate, more up-to-date Yelp. I
find it more useful now than when it was first released as a check-in app. Not
all pivots are net negatives.

~~~
duxup
Humm that sounds pretty good. Not the thing I remember liking about it but
certainly I could go for something beyond the noise of Yelp with all the "I
had a bad time this one time" and "This place isn't as good as that place that
is 3x as expensive" or the worst of "I think Pizza Hut is the peak of cuisine
but I ended up at this french place and it sucked!" It seems all services sort
of devolve into that noise.

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xster
AFAIK, Foursquare was also the first mobile app to start the if-you-think-
there-are-tabs-your-users-don't-use,-now-they'll-really-never-use-them-again-
in-a-separate-app trend.

I thought they still had a pretty good differentiator making an effort to make
recommendations in the main app based on your specific food tastes etc. Too
bad they were a bit half hearted focusing on it.

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arkanciscan
I've used FourSquare/Swarm a lot but I have also developed apps using their
API. I've been watching their documentation stagnate and I was worried that
the API might get shut down entirely due to 4sq shutting down. Glad to see
they are still alive. Hopefully this gives them incentive to improve their
docs, and support.

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dopamean
Some years ago a foursquare founder got forced out of the company (cant recall
why) and was bought out by the investors iirc. I suspect he cashed out the
most from this whole saga despite how it must have felt and looked at the
time.

~~~
floatingatoll
7 years ago:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6159963](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6159963)

~~~
fernandopj
Sadly that interview didn't reveal that much, only that he left not by choice,
and "still hurts him".

The only somewhat objective info about it was that he didn't have a defined
role in the company anymore.

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kitotik
Long live Gowalla!

But seriously, Foursquare pivoted away from consumers and went down the data
broker path many, many years ago. 2011 maybe?

As much as I despise both of these companies and their business models, the
merger makes a ton of sense.

~~~
skinnymuch
I miss Gowalla! Wish I backed up the data.

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robbiet480
Wonder what this means for Swarm? It's still a fun game, even all these years
later (although seeing lower use I'd imagine during this pandemic).

~~~
sonar_un
I hope swarm doesn't go away, though I still lament them splitting the apps in
two.

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ChrisArchitect
the split of the apps wasn't detrimental. Swarm is for your daily/weekly
checkins to places - acts as a diary/bumps up the activity on restaurants etc

Foursquare is great when you're away/on trips/in a foreign city - to look up
places to visit, get recommendations, make planning lists etc. Proven useful
for me for many years.

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rsp1984
Can anyone here explain how Foursquare's business works? It seems like they
are capitalising on location data that they gather from devices, but AFAIK the
Foursquare and Swarm apps are pretty much dead.

So how exactly are they getting possession of the location data? Or is that
not even their biggest source of revenue?

Just genuinely curious.

~~~
kevstev
I interviewed there a few years back- I actually really liked the team there
and came close to taking a less lucrative offer to work there. To the best of
my knowledge, this is not in any way secret information, its just not widely
known.

Foursquare is essentially a service for other apps at this point- They are a
library embedded into many apps. Foursquare is likely on your phone somewhere.
The app owner gets a whole lot of location data "for free", and Foursquare
gets is own copy. They give you analytics on the data fed to them- the details
were not laid out to me, but its not hard to fill in the blanks here- how many
people walked into your store that day- how many people walked into your store
after you covered that zipcode in an ad campaign, etc, what is the shape of
your traffic in terms of people coming in from 9-10am, vs 10am-11am (helping
them refine their staffing) etc... None of this couldn't be built themselves,
but its already built and refined, and more refined.

On the flip side, there are some very lucrative uses for this data in
aggregate. I am a hedge fund, and I want to know how many people are walking
into a Macy's, or Chipotle after its dust-up, or even an entire mall (to get
some edge on the owner's health). Right now it would probably be very
interesting to look at someone like Home Depot's foot traffic- they are
"essential"\- but is anyone going? Combine this with some data like Yodlee
(for e-commerce- they sell gift card data) and you can get a quite accurate
model for where their revenue is going to land. Hedge funds are willing to pay
a lot of money for this type of data.

This was the state of affairs 3 years ago, things may have evolved since then.

~~~
rsp1984
Hey, thanks for your comment! This definitely makes sense. I just wonder how
they are able to gather this location data.

From my naive point of view, most people have their phones on standby in their
pockets with GPS turned off most of the time while they go shopping. And even
if it is turned on they are probably using Whatsapp or Insta. So, in a real
life scenario, what circumstances would have to come together for Foursquare
to successfully collect data?

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neonate
[https://archive.md/8wYjr](https://archive.md/8wYjr)

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nunez
This was the only somewhat-popular alternative to Yelp and Google Reviews.
Sucks that their City Mapper service will probably go away.

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maxdo
Still using foursqure over yelp for reviews.

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NoblePublius
EBITDA is not profit

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sharma_pradeep
About time

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davmar
next up: yelp & groupon

~~~
maxerickson
Does groupon have a meaningful amount of incoming data?

