
Ask HN: Is it worth staying in college? - modwest
Is it worth staying in school? I'm in my 30s, have no degree (well, an AAS in an unrelated field) but have become semi-proficient at programming in the past year or so in which I've pursued this career.<p>I started back to school last fall, and continued through the spring as a part-time student. I decided that this fall I would go full-time, in addition to my full-time job programming in the energy sector.<p>However, I've lost almost all my passion and drive for learning new things. I don't study new languages anymore, or read blogs, or write blog posts myself anymore. All the time I used to spend enriching myself I now spend doing Geology homework (a science elective..) or taking Computing II. I am taking Discrete Math, and that's interesting and applicable down the road. But I'm left wondering, is it worth it to have, in my early- to mid-thirties, what will likely be 3-4 completely unproductive years? I feel like instead of constantly improving myself at my own pace, I've slammed the brakes on my education by going to college.<p>All that being said, I want to continue to be employable. I live in a midwestern city, a big one, but not one that is heavily tech-centric. The crunch for developers is very severe here, so I don't take the fact I find work relatively easily as a sign that I'm some super programmer, or that I'm universally hireable.<p>I just want to know the opinion of those more experienced than me. Is it worth it to stay in college? Or is that parchment more worthwhile than continuing to pursue programming as the passion it is for me?
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bendmorris
"Is it worth it to have, in my early- to mid-thirties, what will likely be 3-4
completely unproductive years?"

Education (and by that I mean the official, credential-providing type of
education) is an investment. Yes, some less productive years are a given. But
if you do it right, your earning potential will be higher, you'll be able to
work on more interesting and challenging problems, and you'll give yourself
more career options. There are certain problem domains that it'd be very
difficult to break into without a guide to get you started in the right
direction.

With that said, it really depends on what you want to do for the rest of your
life. If you don't have any specific career goals, either find some or drop
out, because it's a bad investment and you'll waste time and money. If you
want to make simple web apps for a living and you're sure that's all you'll
ever want to do, drop out, because you can learn that easily on your own.
College is definitely not worthless - you just need to figure out what it's
worth to you.

My advice: look around for professors solving problems you find interesting,
and make contact with them and see if they'd be willing to work with you. Try
to find work that really stimulates you, and do that.

~~~
modwest
Yeah, I definitely do not want to be working on web apps in 3 years. That
being said, I do have an interesting job doing interesting work that is both
challenging and rewarding, and is NOT in the website business. They seem not
to care too much about whether or not I have a degree; the CTO was more
impressed by my github repos & other public-facing aspects of my "hacking
life." But good thoughts, thank you.

edit: I'd eventually love to be working on problems e.g. NLP & ML but those
are master's and phd-level fields afaik, and I definitely am not interested in
chasing that at this point in my life.

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jdelsman
I think there is little to no correlation between a programmer being
"employable" and their level of education. I have no (finished) degrees from
any universities, however, I've been employed time and time again, and I
continue to innovate and have a drive for learning. That being said, some
fields simply require a degree. I would feel a little uneasy (scratch that: a
lot uneasy) about seeing a doctor or a lawyer who was self-taught.

This is all pointless if you can't afford school in the first place. I know
too many people who fork out $40,000-160,000 for a four-year college degree,
and for what? Most of them are "unemployable" as soon as they exit with their
shiny, expensive piece of paper. This is why I chose to stop going to school
and focus on making myself "employable" by learning new languages, new
techniques, marketing myself, getting better and better at what I already know
how to do, and focusing on gaining experience in the work force.

This sounds like what you need to do.

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salemh
There is always the argument of staying for 1) Meeting those you may
eventually do business with, have mentor rings, etc. (networking, cannot be
understated)

2) social experience; I always find those (personal anecdote) of those taking
1-2 years off of highschool straight to college and experiencing Something
(going to Europe, seeing new cultures, etc.) experience lower levels of
burnout.

Make college the most of the experience you desire, and their is no such thing
as a "waste" of experience.

~~~
salemh
Then with your parent "I just want to know the opinion of those more
experienced than me. Is it worth it to stay in college? Or is that parchment
more worthwhile than continuing to pursue programming as the passion it is for
me"

With your current situation then, perhaps some self study of the "why" of what
your goals / future endeavors could bring would be beneficial. Meaning, take a
meditative walk, hike, "alone" time with shutting down all electronic mediums
(NO distractions) and, a freewrite into a blank pad of paper on your passions,
goals (separate columns), link them up (passions to goals to competencies),
and pursue / iterate until fruition. Without further information, I'm not sure
what I can offer, but I hope it is helpful :)

Prometheus Rising
[http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1561840564/ref=as_li_ss_tl?...](http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1561840564/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&tag=xlracom-20&linkCode=as2&camp=217145&creative=399369&creativeASIN=1561840564)

Is a great mind-hacking novel to expand your views of reality, what many would
identify with "aha" moments, and, many would cite (in sections) "hokey." But,
expanding your creative juices (even if that is staring at a sunset whilst
calming your mind to any and all distractions, quiet your mind) and, see what
comes :)

Cheers!

Edit: with regards to networking outside of college, do not discount the
possibility of the up and comings / future generation of movers Within
college, that could be of future value (whether you add to their experiences
(mentor), or they, "ping" something to lead to a slight "aha" moment).

~~~
modwest
Thanks, I think writing down pros/cons and thinking hard is exactly what I
need to do.

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steve8918
Make hay while the sun shines. In this economy, you need to earn as much as
you can and save up all your money and don't turn down any job offers.

If you want to go to school, go part-time. If you have a sustained career
without a college degree in your 30s, chances are you won't need it.

------
daegloe
I'm a programmer and a college dropout. I've always been the type to march at
the beat of my own drum. While genuinely interested in the humanities and core
curriculum offered at my school, I loathed the slow pace of the classroom. I
wanted to jump ahead and skip the basics and go straight to the "fun stuff!" I
harnessed that energy and began skipping classes, teaching myself a self-
selected curriculum and started developing software. Unfortunately, that path
wasn't compatible with the university and I soon found myself on academic
leave. It was 1995, however, and the budding Internet era was my oyster. I
said goodbye to school and never looked back. Well, at the behest of a college
professor I did consider returning to school a few years later but ultimately
declined the offer.

Flash forward 7 years, and I was already a (twice) successful entrepreneur and
now executive at a global media company. The lack of a college degree and
formal education had not (in any meaningful way) impeded my career, nor had it
handicapped my ability to continually learn, adapt and innovate.

One day, Microsoft came knocking. They were recruiting me to join the team.
They flew me in for the infamous day of interviews and Mensa riddles, and not
a single person asked me about my education. That is until the (8th and) final
interview of the day. The head of the division said something along the lines
of, "so, I see here that you never graduated from college?" I more or less
shrugged off the question, made some smug remark about my entrepreneurial
tendencies and referenced his boss, Bill Gates. I'll never forget his
response. He said, "look, college is like bootcamp. Above all else, it
prepares you for life by requiring you to follow someone else's rules. If you
couldn't follow the rules of your school for 4 years, how do I know you will
follow ours?"

It may seem obvious to others, but for me, that was the very first time
someone had framed the college experience in a way that, well, actually
resonated! There was a sudden, epiphany-like clarity. I couldn't even tell you
what I said next. But the interview did go well, and they made me a formal
offer the next day. I turned it down. You know why? He was right, whether I
was capable or not wasn't the issue. I didn't _want_ to follow their rules. In
fact, I soon after resigned my position at the media company and set myself
back on the entrepreneurial route. I've been innovating and starting
businesses ever since. Marching at the beat of my own drum and happy as a
clam.

Each individual's life experience is unique, and I'm certain others might
disagree with my message and sentiment. However, college _is_ kind of like
bootcamp. Many people benefit from its structure and curriculum, and the
social experience it offers. Hey, it's not for everyone, but I do believe that
if you have that fire burning inside of you, if you hear that drumbeat in your
head, and are disciplined enough to learn as you go and manage your own
education, you won't let a missing piece of paper hold you back.

Good luck!

~~~
modwest
Well, I was a Marine for over ten years, so the "kind of like boot camp" facet
is redundant for me since I've been through actual boot camp.

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thegent88
There's no way to know if it will worth it or not. But I found out that
companies (most of the time) are looking for people who can get the things
done.

~~~
modwest
Meaning what? Get college done or solve problems

------
Yxven
Why are you in school?

If your goal is improved career options, stay. If your goal is education, drop
out, and teach yourself.

I say this as someone who recently chose the latter.

~~~
modwest
Well, that's the thing. I am mostly just here to learn the hard stuff I
wouldn't have occasion to teach myself. Discrete math, data structures, etc.
Plus, just based on my experience of constant job offers from networking and
having a decent-sized number of repos on github, I don't feel like my options
are all that limited, with regard to companies I want to work at.

I just don't want to have regrets in 3-5 or 15 or 30 years.

~~~
Yxven
That was actually my reason for wanting to go back to school. I wanted to be
able to ask questions in case I got stuck learning math. I ended up with
horrible math professors (each with 10+ years of experience) and had to teach
myself discrete math, linear algebra, and differential equations.

I hope you will have better luck with professors than I, but in hindsight, I
would have been far better off financially and emotionally if I hired a
private tutor when needed instead of paying tuition.

~~~
modwest
Yes, my calculus professor this semester is terrible.

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MarkPNeyer
no.

i have a bs (from a liberal arts college in the midwest) in CS, math, and
physics. i have an MS in computer science from the university of north
carolina.

if i could take those and exchange them for another 5 years of work
experience, i'd do it in a heartbeat.

~~~
modwest
Yes, I am beginning to think my ability and drive to self-teach in my free
time, coupled with the fact I do have an extensive work history in other
careers, removes much of the benefit of attending college.

How has your MS impacted your ability to find work? I'm deducing it hasn't had
a positive impact, and the work experience displaced by your education has had
a negative impact.

~~~
MarkPNeyer
the degree itself is worthless compared to my experience. i've never had
anyone ask what i studied in grad school at an interview.

------
mikeburrelljr
Stay in school. You'll regret it later.

~~~
modwest
Ok, do you have specifics or just vague platitudes?

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divvlr
No. I'm very passionate about the topic of whether not school is necessary. My
conclusion is that it is not, yet I still finished 4 years of school. Now that
I've graduated I found out I love programming a lot!! I wish I would have
started younger. I'm sorry you lost your passion for it, but it may not be
your passion that is lost but your direction in life. I would recommend
reading a book the magic of thinking big.

It's unfortunate but we live in a world where society tells us to go to
school, get good grades, get a good job, and then live that life style.
However, if you look at the result of that you will see it's a bad plan. Most
people go to school both time and money poor. When they graduate they get a
job around about 21-24yrs of age. If they keep that job they're their income
goes up steadily until about the age of 32-34. That is the age when most
people's income levels flat-line. However, they don't only flat-line but they
take a small decrease because raises are usually around 3% when inflation is
around 4%. Then round about the age of 60-65yrs of age you retire. However,
the retirement age is now around 75 (I think the current life expectancy age
is 74 for men).

Anyway you retire and my income level drops to a 1/2 or a 3rd of what you were
making when you maxed you income. Your back at where you started.

Here's an example. When I started college I wanted to be a supply chain
manager. My starting wage would have been $45,000 my income would be expect to
max out at around $90,000. When I retired, lets say at 1/2 the income. How
much will I be making? $45,000! I'm right back at where I started when I was
22! That makes no sense. (Stats from the USDL United States Department of
labor)

Many people say well you can invest but I don't think I need to say anything
about that. For the average person and the volatility of the stock market,
lets not waste our time. Plus most people go into so much debt after
graduating that the invest doesn't have time to mature.

So my tone has been very negative so far. Here's my message of hope. I heard
once, find someone who has want you want and do what they did. What I took
from that is you first need to write down what, you want, your life to look
like. Do you like to travel? Do you want lots of kids? Do you want land? Do
you want cold or hot weather? Do you want to spend time with your family (man
I could really go on about how kids are losing their parents do to corporate
America)? And yes I'm support capitalism I'm not a hippie, though I friends
that are. I digress......

Once you have established want you want out life things tend to work
themselves out to putting you in a place to getting them. Your mind has a way
of wanting to make things come true. So once you put something in front of
your mind that you want. Your mind begins to calculate a way to bring it to
existence.

So I assume you're going to school because you want a job that can get you a
better lifestyle. Take a moment and make a list of what you want in life. Then
look for things that help you get it. You'll be surprised where it leads you.

"Life is like a map if you don't pick a destination you're going to end up
nowhere."

P.S. look up on google "The Secret the law of attraction" it's a bit spiritual
and pantheistic. However, there are some good points.

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lclaude01
Got only this quote:

Dream about the future, but work hard today. Dream big. Set goals and plans
for the future. But working hard today is always the first step towards
realizing your dreams tomorrow. Don’t allow dreaming about tomorrow to replace
living in today.

