

Science Can Neither Explain Nor Deny the Awesomeness of This Sledding Crow - latchkey
http://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2012/01/science-can-neither-explain-nor-deny-the-awesomeness-of-this-sledding-crow/251395/

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martinkallstrom
This is a red herring in my eyes. I really can't see what everybody else think
they are seeing, a crow having fun sliding down the slopes on his newly
invented snowboard. I see a crow trying to open the great-smelling lid of a
jar to get to the food "inside", having chosen a really lousy location for
this activity. The crow is stupid for trying to open an object that is not a
container, and stupid for choosing the ridge of a roof to do this. And above
all, it is visibly frustrated with the results of it's own stupidity. It's not
having fun, it's hungry as hell and can't get to the food it thinks is inside
the lid.

UPDATE just to clarify what I'm saying: I'm not questioning the intelligence
of crows, I'm questioning the interpretation of this video. There could be
crows playing chess and appearing on radio talk shows and I would still argue
that this bird is just trying to find food and being stupid in it's choices
doing so.

He's mostly standing on the lid picking at it, which is exactly how crows eat.
Why on earth would you pick at your snowboard if you were busy having fun in
the slopes?

~~~
jaekwon
It's plausible, but I disagree for these reasons.

    
    
      1.  The crow stands on the lid as soon as it puts it down
      2.  Sometimes the crow waits on the lid
      3.  The crow slides down with the lid instead of flying off of it
      4.  The crow flies back to the same spot
      5.  We already know that crows are rather intelligent

~~~
scotty79
Also when lid got stuck in the snow (at the end of the second good slide) crow
could peck it for as long as he liked. If he wanted to get something out of
the lid he would continue to do it not fly again to the top.

I think the pecking only purpose is to make the lid slide down. Apart from
that pecking is the same for him as the touch is for us. We tend to move our
hands and fingers a lot to improve our sense of touch when we operate an
object.

~~~
martinkallstrom
He flies to the top because he needs something hard under the lid, not the
soft snow.

After two thirds of the video the crow figures out that by having one leg on
the "ground" the jar won't slide down when he picks and pulls at it, then
spending the last third of the video in this position.

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schlomie
I'm always startled when I see speculation or surprise that animals exhibit
"human" behavior as though they're not just animated vegetables; for fuck
sake, yes, they're sentient beings and experience all the same things we
do(!). They're just pretty stupid. ;-)

~~~
eurleif
Out of curiosity, believing that, are you a vegan or vegetarian? If not, how
do you justify killing something that can experience being killed?

~~~
martinkallstrom
Animals can not only experience being killed, there are documented cases where
intelligent animals like orcas and dolphins have made and carried out a
decision to commit suicide.

Humans in general even justify the killing of humans in special situations,
who obviously are capable of experiencing being killed. It's eating the
remains that's repulsive in the case of more intelligent species like humans,
dolphins or dogs, isn't it?

~~~
eurleif
I'm ok with killing humans as part of a justified war, but I wouldn't be ok
with death camps (or slaughter houses) for humans who had done nothing wrong,
regardless of whether they were being eaten.

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jaekwon
"Human beings have a strong, strong, strong tendency that if we see an animal
do something that's analogous to what we do, like use a tool or answer an
arithmetic question, we assume that the animal is doing it and understands the
situation in the same way we do," he said. "And sometimes that's true but more
often it's false."

Those words do nothing but justify one's "animals are non-sentient" hat. I can
say the same towards the actions of other individuals. "I have a strong
tendency that if I see another human sledding, I assume that the human
understands the situation in the same why I do." Why should I assume that
another person understands a situation in the same way that I do, whereas a
crow cannot? Because the person is of the same species as me? "Species" is
just an artificial term that describes the ability to interbreed.

~~~
VMG
> _Beause the person is of the same species as me? That's just an artificial
> term that describes the ability to interbreed._

The term also describes the biological similarity between the organisms, in
this case, similar neural cortices that are _vastly_ different from other
animals.

A crow might be sentient, but you will never find it commenting on hacker
news.

~~~
jaekwon
Biological similarity does not imply similarity of understanding. My
understanding is also shaped by environment and knowledge as much as my genes.

You and I are similar genetically, but I cannot make any statement about your
understanding of any activity (like sledding) as compared to mine, because we
(or at least I) do not know how to compare "understanding" between two beings.

The crow's neural circuitry is different from yours or mine, but the "same"
software can run in many different architectures.

Never say never :)

~~~
VMG
Neurological similarity is necessary for any kind of meaningful understanding,
but it isn't sufficient, so I basically agree.

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ck2
It's trying to break the item open - they do this in other environments with
other kinds of food.

Crows are very intelligent, do not make them angry, seriously, they will
remember you.

