
Ask HN: What to do for logos? - michaelfairley
I have a project that I'm launching in the next few weeks, but it is still logoless. Should I leave it logoless for a while (while bootstrapping), or suck it up and drop a $300 on a 99designs custom design or something? Is there a cheaper alternative?
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iamcalledrob
You don't care about a logo.

You need to care about your brand, and this should be an intrinsic part of
what you're doing. It defined who you are, as a company.

If you're doing things right, you'll already know a huge amount about your
brand, but most business and tech people are not used to expressing this.

Even if you have a crappy, hand-made logo, what matters is the brand, and
being honest with it. If you're 2 guys working out of a garage, maybe a home-
made logo does represent your brand better?

99designs and other sites are purely for eye candy. You won't get a well
thought out logo that reflects your brand. It's purely visual design.

Source: I'm a Designer & Brand Consultantw

~~~
c1sc0
I'm more in favor of skipping the logo and brand entirely if you can. Startups
have become so cheap & nimble these days that it is worth waiting out on
establishing a brand. Worry about branding once you get user traction. Once
you have user traction, you know who your customers are, what they want & what
kind of brand identity will appeal to them. Starting to worry too early about
branding is just money down the toilet if you ask me.

~~~
peteforde
This is bad business advice. I'd down vote if I could.

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drewcrawford
99designs.

I feel bad about it because I would hate to see a programmer in the same boat.
The truth is I just haven't found a versatile designer that's reasonably
priced whose work I consistently like.

As long as 99designs consistently provides better results for less money i'll
probably keep using it.

~~~
placer14
You might be interested in this review of 99designs from a designer's
perspective. I tend to agree with his comments. However, there also seems to
be a market and if all parties are aware of how choosing a service like
99designs (as described in the review) will impact their final product, then I
would say "Go for it". FYI, strong language in this review.
<http://www.graphicpush.com/99designs-bullshit-20>

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brm
Learn a little bit about typography and then peruse fontsquirrel.com, pick an
interesting font and let it do the work for you. Most enduring logos are not
graphically complex.

Simple Logos: Bayer, 3M, Twitter, Facebook, Yahoo etc

I also second the recommendation to make friends with inkscape and gimp

~~~
peteforde
The branding and logo development for each of these cost five to eight
figures. Money well spent, because the average consumer recognize them
instantly.

~~~
pwim
Do you have a source for this?

According to this blog, twitter's logo cost $10-15 and nike's cost $35:

<http://www.logoblog.org/wordpress/cost-of-famous-logos/>

~~~
peteforde
I concede on the example of Twitter; that said, I had no idea _that_ was
Twitter's logo. I thought their word mark was their logo, and perhaps this
helps make my point regardless: did you know that Twitter's logo was a bird on
a tree? That particular bird on a tree?

Anyhow, as I've said elsewhere in this thread my beef is with folks who think
your logo is your brand, and that a brand is something you can do in Photoshop
if you have some good fonts installed. It's not just wrong, it's damaging
business advice.

I could also cop out and say that both Twitter and Nike have spent a lot more
than $15 and $35 on their brand, regardless of the cost of their original
logos.

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pwim
The cheapest option would be to make something up yourself.

Inkscape (<http://www.inkscape.org/>) is a decent open source vector graphics
editor that you should be able to use to whip up something halfway decent.

The issue you can have if you go with a really cheap logo is that it may be
just a rip off of some other logo, and you may run into trademark issues.

~~~
peteforde
If you think paying for a good logo is too expensive, just wait and see how
much a free logo will cost you.

~~~
pwim
Care to elaborate? Whether or not you have a professionally designed logo
would make an interesting A/B test. Have you done or are you aware of any
research about this?

~~~
peteforde
I think my use of the word logo in my comment contributed to the problem
instead of a solution. Specifically, if you think of branding in terms of
firing up Photoshop and trying out some cool fonts, then you are not seeing
the big picture.

The specific reason that this thread has tweaked me so much is that it's just
so typical for us developers to minimize the effort that goes into good
design. It's like it's somehow incomprensible that a team of people with years
of experience would spend weeks coming up with a brand strategy that works
well across many mediums and tells a coherent story.

There's a really good article about the process of creating the FedEx logo on
HN right now. He wasn't starting from scratch or doing a style guide and it
still sounds like it took months.

~~~
lrm242
But right now the guy is bootstrapping. He doesn't have money for brand
design. He shouldn't even be worried about brand design. Having a decent
looking logo so he looks professional to the 99.999999% of us who aren't brand
designers is the key. Doing it at as low a cost as possible is important. This
may tweak you and other brand designers out there, but the reality is he
doesn't need anything more than eye candy right now.

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hcho
Do you have to have a logo? If you provide widgets and such, yes you do.
Otherwise logos for websites are overrated. They are remnants of print
publishing, where logo mattered to catch the eye of the consumer when he is
picking magazines off the rack. Internet does not work like this.

Spend your money on a better domain name instead. This will help you being
remembered without writing it down. And after that have a favicon that stands
out. This will help you get noticed in a stack of browser tabs. But once the
user is in your site logo has no purpose.

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ComputerGuru
I dropped a hundred bucks on a logo for my startup before there were all these
crowdsource sites. It sucked (really, _really_ sucked) and was nothing like
what I actually wanted.

I spent a day doodling and bouncing ideas off friends online, and with some
luck, came up with the logo that I still use till today..... and I suck at
drawing or design.

Like other commenters said, it's not about the crazy graphics.

(Just for reference, this is my logo: <http://neosmart.net/> )

~~~
peteforde
It's true - you get what you pay for. How's business? Might be time to revisit
your branding conversation.

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mindviews
If you're willing to put in a little work learning some design principles,
that will help you out enormously when it comes to deciding which logo is best
for your product. Whether you buy an inexpensive one off the web or create one
yourself, you'll be able to make better design decisions.

For an introduction/overview to logo design and a set of resources, check out:
[http://justcreativedesign.com/2008/12/02/logo-design-
resourc...](http://justcreativedesign.com/2008/12/02/logo-design-resources/)
Especially spend some time looking at logo redesign critiques since you'll get
a better feel for why a particular logo might be better or worse. Also find
some examples of bad logo design - that should give you a sense of what to
stay away from.

To learn how to think about logo creation, skim a bunch of the "process" and
"logo design roundup" posts: <http://imjustcreative.com/category/branding-
identity/> If you decide to create your own, a typographic logo is probably a
good place to start and there are several of the "process" samples that go
into a lot of depth for that type. This is my single favorite place to learn
about logo design.

And finally, for a solid overview of graphic design principles, there are a
bunch of good tutorials collected here:
[http://psd.tutsplus.com/articles/web/50-totally-free-
lessons...](http://psd.tutsplus.com/articles/web/50-totally-free-lessons-in-
graphic-design-theory/) Knowing a few of the design basics will help improve
everything you create (not just your logo) much more than you may realize now.

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jtheory
I used LogoTournament instead of 99designs -- similar approach. I'm generally
happy with the result, BUT yeah, it was 300+ bucks, and I was not comfortable
with the way that some other designers (including one who went through
multiple revisions) kinda got screwed when I had to choose one.

BTW, though, I started out with a self-designed logo:
[http://forum.emusictheory.com/templates/emusictheory/images/...](http://forum.emusictheory.com/templates/emusictheory/images/logo.gif)

Here is the new one: <http://www.emusictheory.com/images/layout/logo.jpg>

For you to choose what route to take -- well, can you say more about the kind
of site you're building? If you're selling to (enterprise?) customers who'll
really need to know that you'll be offering professional support, long-term
presence, etc. then the craigslist approach won't work for you (and you need
more spit & polish right from the start). If it's something like wrttn
(reviewed earlier today on HN) then you'd be wasting your money; just go with
clean & minimal for the site, and use a nice clear font for a lettered "logo".

------
peteforde
Lest you listen to the "design is overrated" crowd below:

<http://www.thesneeze.com/mt-archives/000273.php>

~~~
SkyMarshal
Out of curiosity, I checked the front page of that site. From the top blog
post:

 _"I remember once when I was a teenager, I was walking through the woods and
I came across an old pair of leather boots. The incredible thing is, when I
looked inside of them I found 4 pieces of gold!

The not incredible thing is, I was a fat, lonely nerd playing Dungeons &
Dragons.

Interestingly, playing Dungeons & Dragons is how I met my first girlfriend.
(That's actually not true. Sometimes I just like typing sentences that no one
has ever seen.)"_

Lol. Funny guy.

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damoncali
Spending any money on a logo is simply not necessary in your position. Until
you feel like you need to cultivate a brand, don't do anything. When you do,
consider just picking a unique (but not too unique) font for the app's name.
You can pay for the font if you must.

Designers get offended by this, but I've yet to see a case where logos are
even slightly important to a bootstrapped business. You can always change it
later.

------
DonLivingston
I'm an aspiring Designer/Developer. I've had some experience with logo design,
and I'm always looking to expand my portfolio. You can check out some of my
work at <http://donaldlivingston.com/portfolio> Feel free to contact me via
<http://www.donaldlivingston.com/contact/>

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cdawzrd
There are tons of designers who will do logo artwork for $150-200. I would
suggest doing the typography yourself in Inkscape or Illustrator if you can,
and then if you feel the need for a nice vector drawing to add to the text,
pay someone later.

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tbranch227
I think you need to keep ironing out your solution first. A logo is not as
important as a great product. Once you can afford (from your project's
profit?) a designer, hire them to help you solidify your presence. Good luck!

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uurayan
A method that worked for me but might not work for all. We had a friend in a
graphic arts program at the local university. We asked him if he wanted to do
our logo for a project.

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mindcrime
I have a friend / former co-worker whose sister is a graphics design student.
She (the sister) created the last logo I needed, and I'll probably go back to
her in the future.

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Chirag
Do a quick logo yourself. You can use Inkscape or GIMP.

~~~
getonit
Never use GIMP for anything, except, of course, for demonstrating how not to
do UI/UX.

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thereddestruby
You can get a copy of Drawing on the Right Side of the Brain and learn to
draw. Proceed then to design the logo you have in mind.

~~~
qbert
Drawing from life and designing logos really aren't the same thing... Studying
a bit about typography would be of much more use.

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theprodigy
twitter bought its logo for hella cheap, but go find an online graphical
design community. Most of them are looking for any type of work to add to
their portfolio and most will do it for free or on the cheap.

~~~
huwshimi
I really have to disagree here. I think this is absolutely the wrong attitude
to have towards the design community. If someone came to this community and
asked to build them an app for free they would get shut down.

Instead of putting up $300 on 99 design have a look around for a designer that
makes logos that you like the look of and send them an email and ask what they
can do for that amount. You might only get a few hours of their time, but
you're probably going to get a much better result, and you'll be doing the
whole design community a favour by not asking for free work.

EDIT: As a stop-gap, the inkscape option that pwim suggested sounds good.

~~~
techiferous
"you'll be doing the whole design community a favour by not asking for free
work."

This is a free market. Supply and demand. If people are willing to do quality
work for free, let them. If someone is looking for quality work and they find
it for free, they should take it. Doing a group of professionals "a favour"
does not enter into the equation.

"If someone came to this community and asked to build them an app for free
they would get shut down."

That's because no one made millions because of a logo. Apps are simply more
valuable than logos, period. And they require more skill to create.

~~~
woodrow
I agree with your first point in as much as people are free to work or not
work as they please. That said, here's some perspective from the design side
which may help you understand how designers may think about these kinds of
things, even if you disagree or find it a touch extreme: <http://www.no-
spec.com/faq/>

As for your second point, how much would you say the brand equity of Apple,
Coca-Cola, or Nike is worth? They would simply be selling electronics, sugary
water, and shoes if they didn't have design and marketing experts building and
executing their brand (experts who I'm sure have been compensated quite
handsomely). While I'll agree that it's easier to "throw together" a logo than
a web app, good design does require reasonable skill, training, and
experience.

ADDED: I guess I should be clear that I'm rebutting the assertion that design
is necessarily less valuable than software development, not that startups
require Fortune 500 branding.

~~~
natrius
In the early stages of a company, the logo contributes very little to the
company's success. All it does is signal that the company is somewhat
professional. It requires little uncommon expertise to achieve this goal.

The comparison to Apple, Coke and Nike isn't applicable. You're describing a
different product than most startups are looking for.

Exhibit A: <http://techcrunch.com/2006/07/15/is-twttr-interesting/>

Exhibit B: <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_logo>

~~~
techiferous
Here's another example: the GoDaddy logo.

[http://www.dotweekly.com/the-story-behind-the-godaddy-
name-a...](http://www.dotweekly.com/the-story-behind-the-godaddy-name-and-
logo)

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nreece
Ash does some simple and inexpensive logo design work -
<http://inkash.com/Print>

~~~
dot
that background... geocities?

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faramarz
Do you have a concept in mind or are you looking for the concept generation +
design rendering?

Ping me, email in my profile.

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Flemlord
99designs.com

