
Ask HN: Need help with job offer negotiation - nicholas73
Background: I&#x27;m about to receive an offer for a position originally posted two levels above my current position.  I passed the technical interviews with essentially no missed questions.  But because the job description states 10 years of experience, whereas I have 8, the HR is preparing me an offer at one level below (but still an equivalent promotion for me).<p>Secondly, I graduated during the last recession, so my salary history is low.  Their HR has heavily indicated that they base offers on prior salary history, with a 10-15% max bump.  Glassdoor has base salary at 30% higher than mine, same company and title, but HR denies that it is accurate.<p>Due to circumstances, 10-15% may not bring much net savings increase for me.  Presumably the job is of higher responsibility and workload, so only 30% becomes meaningful to me.<p>Questions:<p>1. How should I feel about being brought in one level lower strictly because of years of experience on paper?  If there were doubts about my ability, they certainly didn&#x27;t test harder questions during the interview.<p>2. How do I get HR to match what is on Glassdoor?  I might get another offer soon, but HR indicated they want a prompt response.  I doubt my company would move fast enough with a counteroffer too (VP is on vacation).  On the other hand, I don&#x27;t think they have another candidate ready, and they moved very quickly with me.<p>Thanks HN!
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chrisbennet
If you haven't already, read this article by our own "patio11":
[http://www.kalzumeus.com/2012/01/23/salary-
negotiation/](http://www.kalzumeus.com/2012/01/23/salary-negotiation/)

Like others said, be nice but firm. Once during an interview, I was told that
my desired salary range was above the top of the band for that job. I said
with a big smile: "That's not my problem!" The interviewer said "You're
right!"

~~~
patio11
Another good comeback is "I guess that puts your band below my desired salary,
then." and then _say nothing else_.

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codegeek
How bad do you want this job? If not bad enough, say this to the HR:

"I appreciate the offer but I strongly believe that my market value should get
me $desired and if you cannot match that, I will not be able to move forward."

Hit send, close tab and go away from your emails for a while. If they truly
value your skills since they already interviewed you, you will get the deal.
If not, hey you didnt lose anything

This has worked for me many times.

~~~
nicholas73
Thanks. I've got some unique circumstances that do let me walk away, and I'm
only asking for parity within the company.

~~~
dood
There is far more demand than supply for developers right now. If there are
other equivalent employers available to you, you don't have to do anything
other than politely insist on market rate, and be fully prepared to walk away
if they won't meet that.

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askafriend
The biggest leverage you can have in any negotiation is a willingness to walk
away. If you negotiate from that perspective, you'll always be in a position
of strength.

Decide if you are willing to walk away. If you passed the interviews with no
missed questions and the company has already invested a lot of time into you,
it would be idiotic of them to pass on you for a measly extra 15%. Think about
it. They'd have to spend hours/days/weeks sourcing more candidates, who then
would drop off at various stages of the interview funnel. This process is
costly, wasting the time of recruiters, HR people, engineers, management etc
etc.

There is a real dollar value on that time. On top of that, costs like
healthcare and on-boarding you into the team would cost tens of thousands. 15%
is nothing compared to the total cost of hiring and ramping up an employee -
especially relative to the value that you would produce (which is presumably a
multiple of your salary).

So decide if you're willing to walk away, decide what compensation you want,
and be firm yet reasonable/friendly. If they don't budge, then simply walk
away and I bet they will scramble to find a way to keep you. On the off chance
that they don't, then don't feel bad; you did your best and you probably don't
want to work somewhere that underpays you relative to the market anyway.

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rvpolyak
Being an HR professional I would never ask for pay stubs to confirm someone's
wages. What you are being paid is really non of there business. I always
ensure that our Total compensation model is comparable to the industry and
will work with the candidate to get them something we both can agree on.

I honestly wouldn't want to work for a company like that.

Also if your looking at even considering a counteroffer form your current
employer don't!!! If they value you as an employee they should not wait for
you to resign to counter with more money.

~~~
nicholas73
This was a job with the state, so I thought the rules were rigid and payscales
well defined. They ended up offering slightly above what I asked, which I
should have realized that it meant they would have offered even more.

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gt565k
Please tell me you didn't share your previous salary with HR :)

Also 8 vs 10 years of experience is not a significant difference so that HR
can BS you.

They are moving quick on you because you're a solid candidate, and they are
trying to close quick.

Don't let HR BS you, once you get an offer, counter them at 10-20% of where
you want to be, or simply give them a range that you feel comfortable with.

You are the scarce resource, and at an advantage. They've already budgeted for
the position at 2 levels above yours, so they have the money. No reason you
shouldn't be able to get it.

Be firm, don't accept their lowball.

~~~
rpod
Just wondering, how would you respond when being asked about your previous
salary? I'm asking because I'm currently in negotiation with some companies,
and being asked for your previous salary seems to be common practice.

~~~
dood
I was pushed hard on this last time I was interviewing. We danced around a
bit, with them requesting and me declining, until they said they must have my
previous salary because it is their policy. So I responded that it was my
policy not to disclose my salary. They couldn't argue with that, and I got the
offer I was looking for (which I ended up turning down anyway, but that isn't
the point.) This is in the UK, but I don't see why it wouldn't apply anywhere.

~~~
rpod
Thank you for your insight.

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brown-dragon
I found this advice on negotiating to be most helpful:

1\. Always stay polite. Getting emotional works against you in most cases.

2\. Don't give ultimatums. Saying "I want this and this" is fine - don't add
"or else...".

3\. In your current situation, you have lost some negotiating leverage (your
previous salary, your experience) but it's not unsalvageable. Simply bring
them up and counter them yourself:

* Your previous salary is not relevant - only what you want to accept now. HR has a desire to lowball you so you should counter with a higher-than-market request.

* Your experience is _not_ an issue. If they want you for the job then you are qualified for the salary that job entails.

4\. Use the fact that you are _already_ giving them something by accepting an
offer _one level below_! Make this a big deal and ask for compensation for
doing a higher level job.

5\. Pick a price that is 10% above market value and have a list of reasons you
want it (new house, car, ...). Do not be afraid to stick to your ask. After
all, they need you to do the job just as much as you need their job.

6\. When picking a number do not pick a round number (numbers like 30% sound
like you have not given it much thought. Numbers like 101,300/\- sound like
you have figured out your finances and have a good reason for your ask).

7\. Be patient and remember you _both_ want something out of this.

Good luck!

Edit: The Lightning Guide to Software Resumes has a short section on
negotiating that is a good summary. A better book is "Never split the
difference" by Chris Voss which is, I think, the best book on the subject.

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bsvalley
If it's in the bay area I'd say just give your number, they'll do something.
An offer is an offer... It's like buying a car, they give their offer and you
give yours until it works out. I've done it so many times.

Though, the base salary is the hardest thing to negotiate. A lot of companies
won't change that number no matter how good you are, because they try to
maintain their employees within the same bracket and avoid any frictions
between people. Simply by asking I got double sign-on, more RSU's, etc. But
from experience if it's not a google or one of the big 5, then they won't bump
up the base salary. So you should target sign-on and RSU's/stock/options.

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TheCustos
I'd recommend being very polite, but direct with the recruiter.

"I appreciate your generous offer and would love to join the team! The role is
exciting and the team is fantastic. The current offer feels like it comes in a
bit under market both in terms of title and compensation.

I am ready to accept an offer at the initial level at a starting salary of
<$$$$>. I totally understand if this doesn't work for the broader team, but I
want to make sure our partnership starts off in alignment to ensure a mutually
beneficial long-term relationship."

Written on my mobile, so it's a VERY rough draft, but something like that.

Don't let people under pay you, but also be realistic w/ your talent level.

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nicholas73
Update: I just sent my proposal in, with salary and market calculations along
with a request to keep the higher title.

Ironically, they gave me their 10-15% formula as a lowball tactic, but once I
did the calculations this way it came out slightly higher than market.

This was because of differences in benefits and net savings from cost of
living.

I guess the question is now, how can I ask for higher than market? I'm not
sure if I can. I may be a rare candidate that fit all their checkboxes and
they need to move quickly, but this is a good step for me too.

~~~
codegeek
I don't mean this in a disrespectful way but I think you are too hung up on
market vs non-market. Just decide what is a good number for you to quit your
current job and ask for that . If you get it, take it. If not, move on. Don't
make it too difficult for you.

~~~
nicholas73
You are right, and I felt much better after calculating the exact number I
needed and left it with them.

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devnonymous
> 1\. How should I feel about being brought in one level lower strictly
> because of years of experience on paper? If there were doubts about my
> ability, they certainly didn't test harder questions during the interview.

Personally, I would not have felt too great about this. Are you really excited
about this new job or are you switching just for the raise? The fact that they
even have a hierarchy that's 3 level deep, counted in number of years and all
that _after_ a supposedly 8 year cut off just doesn't seem right. I think the
HR is just trying to get you for the lowest offer they think you will find
acceptable, not for what they think you ought to deserve.

About the response time don't sweat it. If they really want you, they'll be
willing to hash out the details. Hiring for a single position can take 3
months or more, it's a lot of wasted effort if a company gets to the point of
making an offer and having candidates decline.

Now, as far as _how_ you should negotiate is concerned, I'm sorry, I don't
think there is a one-size-fits-all solution to that.

Hope this was helpful.

~~~
nicholas73
Thanks, I'm okay with a hierarchy... it's pretty standard for engineers isn't
it? The number of years is a bit old school, true.

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jaclaz
If I may, and this is a general consideration, not necessarily applying to
this specific case, there is often a "mislabeling" of seniority as
"experience".

They are not the same thing.

Now explaining that to a HR might be an issue, but while it is clear that two
years are different from ten, eight years in a given role/position in a
"dynamic" firm - possibly a small one where you have to deal with a multitude
of different problems - might be equivalent (or at least it is equivalent in
my mind) to fifteen or more years in a big firm/highly structured
multinational where the same role/position revolves around doing only what is
on the paper.

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ifdattic
Regarding years of experience this quote from Code Complete book could be
useful "If you have not learned the language/framework in 1-2 years, more
years won't help you" :)

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lancewiggs
Go up. If they are offering under market then consider pushing for higher than
your baseline/benchmark. You only get one chance to start a new job and you
don't want to be pissed off when you do. Tell them that anything less than X
will be demotivational. If they are being unreasonable then so should you. And
just be hardline about the level.

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source99
I think it's important to feel good about your compensation when starting a
new job. You don't want it hanging around in the back of your mind. It might
eat you up mentally.

I would ask for fair market value in order to avoid this possibility.

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akulbe
The other thing to consider... don't only negotiate for money part of the
salary. Think of vacation time, and other perks as well.

~~~
nicholas73
Thanks, I might try to get the title back after the final number is done.

~~~
TheCustos
Don't address one item and then move to another. Be upfront about all of your
concerns at once. If I moved up on salary and then had a prospect re-counter
on title, I'd pull the offer.

~~~
nicholas73
Thanks for your advice. I sent my concerns before receiving an offer letter
now. Before I was hoping to get a first number from them, but it would
definitely cause them more bureaucratic resistance to change offers.

