
Where's the Proof That Mindfulness Works? - xriddle
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/wheres-the-proof-that-mindfulness-works/
======
nabla9
As someone who has meditated 20 years, 2-4 hours per day and participated in
long retreats 7 days to month, I have always been skeptical about this
"mindfulness business". It has it's roots in old meditation traditions, but
they were never supposed to bee quick fix, relaxation or therapy.

Many therapy methods work well with the therapist who developed it, but don't
give good results when packaged into programs and courses. Kabat-Zinn is
experienced meditator and I'm not surprised if his therapy works when he is
involved. He has so much personal experience. Meditation traditions transfer
their knowledge to the next generation trough training regime that takes
decades. It's not (yet) science that can be transferred trough short courses
and readings.

I have instructed newcomers in meditation. If they have mental problems I
suggest they seek therapy and do little meditation on the side. Meditation can
help, but I have also seen meditation induced psychosis several times when
people see it as the cure for everything. Many experienced meditator's go to
normal therapy to deal with their mental problems and find it useful. Some use
medication.

My experience is that people with mental problems benefit more from
concentrative meditation that builds one-pointedness and calmness, than pure
mindfulness type awareness meditation that brings problems into the
consciousness. Build strength before facing your inner dragons.

~~~
thinkling
My experience (personal and from a few friends) is that there's a step
function. A small amount of initial meditation gives some immediate benefit.
Continuing to do that same thing yields little more. Further benefit takes a
much larger effort until new plateau.

Specifically, I think there's definite short-term benefit to be had from small
amounts of relaxation-oriented meditation, and from the common teaching "don't
identify with the feeling" ("I am angry" vs "I notice anger is present"),
allowing some freedom in reaction different from acting out the emotion that
is felt.

~~~
dwaltrip
Strongly agree with this. It'd be nice to see some studies tackle this angle.

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mrleinad
The author seems to discuss "mindfulness" like a generic thing, mentions
trials without actually referencing them or diving into the details in order
to consider their validity, and finishes the article mentioning that "it's a
personal experience".

Quite unworthy article of HN front page in my opinion, besides the possible
interesting discussion that might arise based on it.

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orasis
You could wait for the research to be conclusive, or you could dive in right
now and radically improve your life.

I recommend starting with the free short book, Mindfulness In Plain English -
[http://www.wisdompubs.org/sites/default/files/preview/Mindfu...](http://www.wisdompubs.org/sites/default/files/preview/Mindfulness%20in%20Plain%20English%20Book%20Preview.pdf)

~~~
AnimalMuppet
That's kind of begging the question, though. The question is, _will_ diving in
radically improve my life?

I'm not saying it won't, by the way. I myself practice something that some
might consider to be mindfulness. But you are assuming facts not in evidence,
as a lawyer might say.

~~~
bad_user
Evidence is hard to get due to variables in such studies. You have to observe
people's daily routine for a long period of time, which gets to be expensive.
You also cannot fool the subject, or the people monitoring progress, so
there's no way to do such studies double-blind.

For these reasons studies on nutrition are also hard and mostly flawed. But do
we need a study to tell us that sugar is poison?

Well, ok, we do, but we can also notice our grandparents weren't eating that
much sugar, they weren't suffering that much from obesity or diabetes and
that's enough for me.

~~~
joombaga
I'll grant you the note of our grandparent's diets, but I don't think it's
analogous. Were our grandparents also more mindful? Perhaps I'm missing your
point.

~~~
erikbye
I seem to be missing it too. You don't need mindfulness to be on a particular
diet, or to avoid sugar, or obesity.

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11thEarlOfMar
Engaging in mindfulness implies changing what you think about, or, where your
focus is. This can be therapeutic to persons who are suffer from anxiety and
depression because it interrupts periods where negative thoughts dominate
their consciousness and replaces them with periods where their thoughts
focused on current circumstances that are generally benign or pleasant.

For persons who don't benefit from such therapy, mindfulness could mean re-
focusing away from the abstract thinking that solves problems or invents or
creates. Many people deliver their work product or improve their circumstances
through this type of thinking. Practicing mindfulness may negatively impact
them by reducing the amount of time they spend contemplating in such areas.

~~~
thinkling
Just as easily I could argue that being more mindful can mean becoming more
aware of the anxiety that is present, and that clearing one's mind leaves more
room for clear analytical thought. I think you are analyzing from an armchair,
not from a meditation cushion.

~~~
uoaei
That is why the tradition emphasizes constantly that "you are not your
thoughts." Putting some distance between you and your anxiety helps address it
as the meaningless reflex that it is.

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warent
I frequently hear an argument against these practices that they're just a
placebo. But wouldn't that actually be an argument for it? If the placebo
makes you believe that you have less stress and greater stillness, I don't see
how that's different from "really" having less stress. Which means it's not a
placebo but really works.

Just a food for thought. In any case aside from the endless and consistent
anecdotal evidence, there is a science to it

[https://youtu.be/aPlG_w40qOE](https://youtu.be/aPlG_w40qOE)

~~~
computerex
The placebo effect operates on the domain of perception. In other words,
placebo is a psychological effect, which may deceive a patient into perceiving
that he or she is getting better even though the sugar pills they just took
had no physiological response from the body.

Stress has a big psychological component, but it is also something that can be
physilogically seen and can be measured. It's important to see the distinction
between the psychological perception and the true physiology.

Stress may not be the best example because as stated, stress has a lot to with
the psychological state.

~~~
olleromam91
Stress reduction is one of the few goals of mindfulness though, so it has to
be an example.

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alexssung
Videos of monks performing self-immolation are enough proof to me.

These monks practice mindfulness meditation for decades, and as a result, they
have such control over their minds that they are literally able to "ignore"
the pain of being on fire and sit still through the entire duration.

~~~
Danihan
I'm pretty sure I could do that too without much practice. Assuming it was an
intentional choice, anyway.

Your body can only handle so much pain before it basically shuts off, and then
you don't feel much of anything. The real pain comes later, when you're
healing.

Not going to test it out though.

~~~
alexssung
No, you wouldn't be able to do that. They burn themselves to death.

~~~
erikbye
Burning to death only hurts briefly, when the nerves have had enough damage
you can't feel. Adrenaline helps block pain, as well. Besides, self-immolation
is not exclusive to those who have practiced mindfulness.

Ever had a severe accident, like a motorcycle accident, or been ran over by a
car? The pain comes after, not in the moment when the trauma occurs.

~~~
alexssung
Yes, the pain is only there before your nerves get burnt out, but even just a
minute of being burned alive is enough to make any normal human being,
including you and me, react involuntarily to the pain.

And yes, I have been in high pain incidents. I recall the pain happening
during and after.

------
woodandsteel
I wonder if it is the case that mindfulness is helpful for certain types of
people, ineffective with others, and actually harmful with some people. Maybe
all the effects cancel out when you do a study with a large sample, and that
is why it seems to be ineffective.

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rdslw
That google guy who wrote the book disagrees:

[https://www.amazon.com/Search-Inside-Yourself-Unexpected-
Ach...](https://www.amazon.com/Search-Inside-Yourself-Unexpected-
Achieving/dp/0062116932)

p.s. book is worth read IMO.

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emodendroket
Frankly a lot of times "mindfulness" seems backwards. If I'm upset about
something happening in the present, absolute focus on the present seems like
not really the best approach, and I don't think indulging in thinking about
the future or reminiscing about the past are really features you need to beat
out of yourself. Also I was talked into reading the Power of Now and it's one
of the most ridiculous things I've ever read.

~~~
olleromam91
Embracing and experiencing emotions in the present moment is exactly what the
concept of mindfulness aims to teach. Repression of emotions is widely
considered an ineffective strategy of coping with negative circumstances.

Stress and depression and other mental health conditions are determined much
more by concerns about the past or future, questioning why or how things have
or will happen. That's not to say that these are unreasonable thoughts...but
for afflicted people, they can become consumed by these thoughts. If people
wanted to become monks and completely live in the present, that's their
choice. But striking a balance is probably a more reasonable goal for someone
with aspirations of success...or whatever.

~~~
agumonkey
I don't know what people feel or do when meditating this way. But one thing I
felt in the last years is that our mind is a bit two-part. One feels, the
other kinda decide to focus or amplify that. Meditating is a bit like relaxing
the second and avoiding vicious feedback loops.

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robg
Lame, depends on what you mean and how it's studied.

[https://www.bensonhenryinstitute.org/research-published-
rese...](https://www.bensonhenryinstitute.org/research-published-research/)

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projectramo
What would it mean for it to "work"?

What would such proof look like?

(Self-reports of well-being? Seems wrong)

~~~
ierolastic
That's what the original paper is kind of about. The Scientific American piece
is a little misleading to me, because it implies the paper is about lack of
evidence, when I think the original paper is a bit deeper than that, and about
definitional issues and so forth. I think the original authors might say that
it's about the need to figure out what _exactly_ is working when it does, and
what works and what doesn't.

Self-reports of well-being are important, because self-perceived well-being is
so important to the construct. I'm not saying other perspectives aren't
important, but think of it this way: if you thought you were severely lacking
in well-being, but others thought you weren't, would you want others to ignore
your own perspective on that?

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snambi
Do it yourself and verify. If it works for you, then great! Otherwise move on.
Most of the drugs recommended by doctors and FDA also don't work. But people
are still trying them out. :)

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magic_beans
Try it.

~~~
Y_Y
What are you implying? That the fact that Buddhism exists means mindfulness is
an effective way of dealing with stress and pain? You could say the same of
alcohol or Christianity or depression.

~~~
olleromam91
Do you know of cases where people have to be counseled for harmful effects of
meditation?

