
Relativ – A VR headset that you can build yourself for $100 - realusername
https://github.com/relativty/Relativ
======
TipVFL
I was expecting this to be another phone holder, much more interesting that
you hacked together some hardware. Does this feature a low persistence
display? Also, you mention "cheap tracking for next big update", is this just
going to be an improvement over your current tracking or a full 6 DOF
tracking? I don't think I've seen any hobbyist 6 DOF tracking for VR yet.

Oh, one note, in your read me, the part about Jonas convincing Chinese
factories to sell you parts at premium prices should be changed. You probably
meant he got really good prices, but premium pricing means basically the
opposite.

~~~
usrusr
> I don't think I've seen any hobbyist 6 DOF tracking for VR yet.

Webcam based hobbyist 6dof headtracking for use with desktop screens has been
around for many years (freetrack, ftnoir/opentrack and so on), but the quality
is rather dreadful. Still, people who don't mind glacial latency from very
heavy smoothing have been very happy with those solutions.

But VR requires so much headmounted technology that tradeoffs between
cost/weight and quality shift a lot. For desktop tracking, adding head mounted
sensors to the existing single camera 6dof tracking solutions would at least
double the amount of hardware involved. But when your baseline is a full VR
headset, those sensors are an almost negligible extension. Gyro sensors and/or
an "inside out" camera could easily add a lot of precision/speed (effectively
the same metric, with filtering) to the rotary axes of single cam 6dof. Last
time I looked at opentrack it already supported some sort of fusion between
stationary camera and Android gyros. This would be a good starting point for a
hobbyist VR rig (not room scale).

------
rsbartram
We see DIY VR a lot within the STEAM educational programs.

Focusing this type of educational attention on children at an early age is
critical for future personal and professional development.

This is what allows consumers to have a build yourself VR headset for $100.

I have covered a few early STEAM programs in the Los Angeles area.

[https://latechnews.org/raymond-ealy-founder-
steamcoders/](https://latechnews.org/raymond-ealy-founder-steamcoders/)
[https://latechnews.org/stem3-academy-open-house-
november-4/](https://latechnews.org/stem3-academy-open-house-november-4/)

~~~
hrktb
About early age children using VR, there was a warning of potential risk for
children using VR, two/three years ago: [https://uploadvr.com/study-vr-
children/](https://uploadvr.com/study-vr-children/)

it’s not a big study nor does it comes to any concrete results, so I was
wondering if you knew of more data on the subject, or knew of any real word
feedback on the matter.

~~~
jesscxc
From what I've read (which isn't hard to find, but I'm mobile right now), the
danger of VR for kids is not an issue, and in fact can actually more quickly
bring to attention if they have a biological issue (like more quickly reveal
if glasses would benefit them).

------
52-6F-62
Kids these days have all the fun. In school They taught us how to animate a 2d
box across the screen.

This looks like a real fun project.

If you belong to it, then great work!

~~~
realusername
I don't know them, I just found that project by chance and thought I would
share it on HN since it looks cool!

~~~
maxime-coutte
Hi, I'm Maxime. This is really nice to share it! Thanks.

~~~
loulouxiv
Félicitations pour votre classement HN petits veinards ! :) C'est quoi la
prochaine étape du projet pour vous ? Vous voulez transformer ça en job ?

------
bufferoverflow
Motion-to-photon latency isn't mentioned. It's basically the most important
characteristic of a good VR set. That's why all smartphone-based VR solutions
suck and make you sick.

Carmack has long lectures about that issue.

~~~
dsnuh
A 16 year old and her classmates built this. I'm sure your comment has
technical merit, but man, give these kids some props!

~~~
mkempe
Agree with props! nit: Maxime is a boy's name, so _his_ mates.

~~~
maxime-coutte
Are you sure that I'm a boy? ;)

~~~
mkempe
en français on peut rester garçon toute le vie, non? en tout cas quand on
parle entre copains.

~~~
maxime-coutte
Ce que je voulais dire, c'est es-tu sure que je ne suis pas une fille ?

~~~
mkempe
Bien sûr, le nom, la photo, sans la moindre hésitation...

Allez, développez votre création et votre histoire à long terme, c'est ça qui
compte!

------
dTal
>the chief architect at Oculus, Atman Brinstock... gave me a precious piece of
advice: "open source it".

If only he followed his own advice.

~~~
supermatt
What would you have him open source? His employers property?

~~~
admax88q
As chief architect he probably has some sway to push FB to open source it.

Even if he can't its pretty hypocritical for him to ask these people to open
source their work, allowing Occulus to benefit from it rather than worry about
them as competition.

~~~
khedoros1
Is it hypocritical to encourage someone to open-source some IP that they own,
while not being allowed to open-source some IP that you don't?

It seems like a chief architect would have a lot of pull in technical
decisions, but a lot less in business or legal decisions. Open-sourcing the
code would have to be considered from all three perspectives.

------
x775
This is really cool -- also great to see a teacher having an impact in this
manner. Awesome!

------
kristaps
Here's one teacher who doesn't have to doubt if his work is meaningful,
awesome!

------
praulv
This should carry a trigger warning for imposter syndrome.

~~~
arpa
We're all impostors, so what? I sometimes feel that this basic insecurity in
IT really creates strife and abrasiveness between people instead of mutual
respect. I find it better to embrace your own imperfections and in this way
find your own strengths, which, sadly, are too often shadowed by the need to
keep up appearances. There is no perfect IT person. We all suck. All tech
sucks. People in general suck at things people do. This is life, and I am ok
with it: I am content with who and where I am, and I am ok with other people
having different goals, different life experiences and different achievements.
My friend works at NASA; I've tried a lot of psychedelics; somebody has been
backpacking around the world with 5$ in their pocket - and we're all deserving
to be allowed (by ourselves) to be happy.

That having been said, these kids are really cool and I wish them the best of
luck!

*edit: punct.

------
JepZ
Without knowing anything about the quality I can say, this is pretty amazing.
I mean putting together a team which builds hardware and software for what
they want to have.

Cool kids :-)

------
jsemrau
Sometimes I would love to go through the black markets of Shenzen and pickup
the parts for projects like these

------
zackmorris
This is really cool.

Quick question for any experts reading this - do Oculus or VIVE use any sort
of dead reckoning/movement prediction in their tracking? Also does anyone have
any documentation on the APIs for this, or information on how the devices keep
track of their latency and calibration information?

There are fundamental limits on latency, especially with spread-spectrum
transmission when all of this goes wireless. As accurate as the tracking and
pointing are for controllers, I feel like some additional extrapolation is
happening. It would be great to have an open source library for this so we can
give hand-built rigs the best tracking that's mathematically possible.

~~~
aphextron
>Quick question for any experts reading this - do Oculus or VIVE use any sort
of dead reckoning/movement prediction in their tracking? Also does anyone have
any documentation on the APIs for this, or information on how the devices keep
track of their latency and calibration information?

Absolutely. Vive uses a combination of IMU based dead reckoning combined with
Lighthouse sensors to provide tracking. The dead reckoning is super important
for maintaining tracking during sensor occlusion. The API it interfaces with
is SteamVR, which is mostly open source, so you can even see how they’re doing
it. The new generation Vive Pro will combine this along with stereo camera CV
based inside out tracking for even better precision.

~~~
DiThi
Do you have a source on the stereo cameras of the Vive Pro being used for
inside out tracking?

~~~
aphextron
This is pure speculation on my part, but it’s the only concievable use for the
cameras. They are laid out in the exact same way as the Samsung Odyssey
headset which does that. I cant imagine they have solved the compositing
issues involved with doing pass through AR yet, although I’d be impressed if
that’s the case.

~~~
T-A
> They are laid out in the exact same way as the Samsung Odyssey headset

Look again. The Odyssey's cameras sit below eye level and point down &
sideways, which makes sense for tracking:

[https://www.samsung.com/us/computing/hmd/windows-mixed-
reali...](https://www.samsung.com/us/computing/hmd/windows-mixed-
reality/xe800zaa-hc1us-xe800zaa-hc1us/)

The Vive Pro cameras sit at eye level, at average interpupillary distance, and
point straight ahead:

[http://s3.amazonaws.com/digitaltrends-uploads-
prod/2018/01/h...](http://s3.amazonaws.com/digitaltrends-uploads-
prod/2018/01/htc-vive-3-2.jpg)

That makes most sense for pass-through AR.

------
maxime-coutte
You can chat with Fellowship of this project!
[https://discord.gg/W9VKbjU](https://discord.gg/W9VKbjU)

------
txsh
I wonder if you could replace the Arduino with a battery-powered Steam Link
without the headset being too heavy.

~~~
ansible
You still need a cable for the screen per and HDMI.

~~~
txsh
A cable between the screen's board and the Steam Link inside the headset.

------
koiz
Cool.

Can't wait for the day when we truly have modular VR.

It's going to take a few years and I know Oculus has the right idea with their
eco system but it sort of bums me out that the Vive didn't end up being the
hackers headset.

Today it feels like the Vive was built out of spite and HTC got lucky Valve
went them first.

~~~
mmanfrin
I think the less cynical answer is that HTC often has good ideas for physical
devices but then often fails to follow through and iterate well. They're also
just struggling as a company in general.

But damn, so I 1000% agree with being bummed about it not being the hackers
headset. I preordered the Vive because of a VR video of a guy programming the
environment he was in at the moment:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=db-7J5OaSag](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=db-7J5OaSag)

I would love to use a VR IDE some day.

~~~
mncharity
> I would love to use a VR IDE some day.

The LCD Windows MR HMDs seem pretty close to being a sufficient display. The
useful visual area is something like 900^2 px. Big, visible pixels, that are
ok with a 7 pt font. And one can do subpixel rendering, so ~3x the horizontal
resolution. If you are ok with working on a small laptop screen, you might be
ok with this.

Otherwise, there's Varjo[1] later this year. Similar resolution to looking at
your laptop. ~55 px/deg. For "under $10k".

For gloves, that you can still type in... we'll see. I had hope for
[https://senso.me/](https://senso.me/) , but they've gone quiet. If you don't
mind spending $10k, there are existing trackers.

For software... sigh. Maybe if market size explodes this Xmas, things will
improve. There's been a lot of "do something, then abandon it, because the
area isn't ripe yet" over the last half decade. And software dev in VR hasn't
been where people's attention is focused.

Oh, if one's interest is in-VR creation of VR, instead of in-VR general
software dev, then there are a bunch of "authoring environments" being worked
on.

[1] [https://www.anandtech.com/show/12102/varjo-announces-
shippin...](https://www.anandtech.com/show/12102/varjo-announces-shipping-of-
vr-high-res-headset-prototype)

~~~
dkudriavtsev
I thought that their products were available to order now...

~~~
mncharity
> I thought that their products were available to order now...

Senso.me? [https://senso.me/order](https://senso.me/order) has said "Estimated
shipment date: December 2017" for long time, and blog hasn't been updated
since Sept.

Varjo? Last I saw, Alpha version available to partners. Though Beta was
expected Q1?

------
mncharity
Imagine this with a 4k panel. Depending on the lenses, it could be the highest
resolution HMD currently available.

Panelook seems down, but even if only 4K@30 5.5 panels are currently
available/affordable... well, no gaming, but I use Vive and WMD at 30 fps as a
desktop alternative.

~~~
sitkack
I'd be interested in how your desktop alternative works with the VR displays.

Do you edit text, code, email and surf inside the helmet?

Do you have any issues with keyboard and mouse?

Do you sit in a desk chair?

~~~
mncharity
> I'd be interested in how your desktop alternative works with the VR
> displays.

"your desktop alternative" -> collection of crufty exploratory kludges. :)

I'm running custom stacks on linux and X. Browser as compositor, and three.js.
React. Tracking from low-level Vive lighthouse driver[1], or laptop webcam
optical, or none. Camera passthrough AR.

Most recently, I'd just plug a Lenovo WMR HMD with a duct-taped-on camera into
an old laptop with integrated graphics; run a browser full screen on the HMD;
run xpra to put emacs and xterm on laptop and HMD; with the camera AR in
background; and sometimes track head motion using the laptop webcam and yellow
duct-tape HMD marks. Boring and crufty. Though emacs looks kind of "hip" with
text changing depth.

> Do you edit text, code, email and surf

Desktop is just xpra[2]. A remote desktop that pulls in individual X programs.
No "plug in a null display device" Microsoft silliness. Text is ok. Video is
low fps (though I've not tried to improve it). I'd not want to surf in a such
small window - think a 900 px square.

Because of resolution (and budget) limits, the UI is more 2D on sphere than
3D. Just picture normal desktop windows. Vive resolution was unusably low and
PenTile. LCD Windows MR resolution is tolerable with individual pixel control
(thus the 2D). 3D might be ok with subpixel rendering, but I don't yet have a
laptop with a dGPU, so I've been putting it off. Given 2D, I'm still just
using xpra's kb/mouse handling. Bits of a React-and-three.js approach. For
hand tracking, leapmotion is unusable, my finger tracking with fiducial
markers is currently too slow, and gloves with IMU fingers are still like
$4k+. So I'm basically just doing exploratory spikes, waiting on late-2018
hardware availability and prices.

> desk chair?

Desk chair, conference room, classroom, subway. All sitting with laptop
keyboard. I've explored room-scale UI before, but for this, just emacs and
xterm in space. Not even in space, just in your face. I'm tired of burning
life fighting ephemeral display and input limits. I'd like to do software dev
and collaborative compilation and category theoretic type systems in 3D. But
I'm going to wait for the needed hardware, rather than struggling against the
glacial pace of tech progress.

[1] [https://github.com/mncharity/node-webvr-alt-
stack](https://github.com/mncharity/node-webvr-alt-stack) [2]
[https://xpra.org/](https://xpra.org/)

~~~
sitkack
Wow, thanks for this response. It sounds like you should go for a phd in VR/AR
non-game HCI. I like that you added AR or something like it, do the
passthrough cameras do edge detection with motion compensated infill (more
pixels come through the closer/faster they move) so one doesn't feel cut off
from the outside world?

Too bad the IMU finger gloves are so expensive, doesn't make sense since the
sensors are only $9 each qty 1. Using gloves like these [0] along with a HMD
that had integrated wide field cameras could have great finger tracking
support.

[0] [http://news.mit.edu/2010/gesture-
computing-0520](http://news.mit.edu/2010/gesture-computing-0520)

~~~
mncharity
> AR or something like it

Just simple passthrough video for now - no vision. And mono, in a bid to
reduce eye strain from long hours of use.

> do the passthrough cameras do edge detection with motion compensated infill
> (more pixels come through the closer/faster they move) so one doesn't feel
> cut off from the outside world?

Do you mean making "big vision-occluding windows" more transparent when the
world behind them changes and/or head spins?

> expensive, doesn't make sense

Existing small high-end market; immature big low-end market; limited ability
to do market segmentation; no HomebrewComputerClub-like market-bypass; lack of
incentives to avoid collateral damage to rate of progress.

My hope is Xmas 2018 will see both finger and eye tracking get products priced
for consumers.

> [color] glove

Yeah. Sigh. They did a startup... and were bought by Oculus. I don't know of
an open source release. So here we are, literally a decade later, and you
can't easily get one.

It's been interesting to watch VR's widespread innovate-startup-acquisition-
unavailable dynamic, and contrast it with say the ferment of HCC. It attracts
investment, but devastates the market ecosystem, and cripples research.

------
j45
This is incredible - well done guys.

My immediate thought went to seeing if a VR headset could be created with a
200+ degree field of view similar to a Pimax or StarVR using two of these
displays!

------
coldacid
Inspired by watching SAO? I wonder if they prefer Asuna or Lisbeth.

~~~
maxime-coutte
Hi, how did you guess? Me and my friends were completely in love with SAO, and
we decided to build a virtual world to go after (or instead) school. But we
ended up building a VR headset.

~~~
QasimK
It's pretty great (and unusual) that a TV show would result in doing something
productive! They can be inspirational and give ideas. How did you go from
watching the show to starting to build a VR headset? Was there any particular
trigger at the start?

------
VectorLock
Strange to me this price point isn't being met by Alibaba/Banggood

~~~
sitkack
Because there is no software platform for driving it? There should be a serial
usb / xml interchange format for sending the device capabilities to the
driving PC. Something HDMI device-id but for VR displays.

------
ensiferum
Cool project by teenager kids shame that its useless in practice since thered
be no sw support from major engines. So as a next project youd need to make an
engine plugin for ue4 for example.

~~~
ereyes01
All the "useful" stuff you're thinking of very likely started out much less
polished / refined than this project. It seems to have struck a chord with
this audience, and it will only get better from here.

~~~
ensiferum
I dont think this particular project will go anywhere really. But these kids
will probably gain something for this for their future careers.

