
Will the New Ethanol Blend Tank My Ride? - pwg
http://www.motherjones.com/environment/2012/12/will-e15-tank-my-ride
======
Sam_Odio
Consumer reports found that E15 causes a drop in fuel economy that's more than
15% [1], meaning you're burning ethanol with your gas for no apparent gain and
to the detriment of the environment in the form of increased emissions.

Ironically, on top of it all you're actually increasing your dependence on
fossil fuels since since e15 requires more fossil fuel to get you the same
distance as e0.

Can someone explain the argument for ethanol-based fuels?

1\. [http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/2011/01/the-great-
ethanol...](http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/2011/01/the-great-ethanol-
debate/index.htm)

~~~
Groxx
I'm not sure where you're getting the fuel economy drop from that link - it
deals with E10 vs E85, where there's about a 30% drop (significant, but far
less than the change in gasoline volume).

~~~
sliverstorm
I'm curious to see how things change when you use an engine designed
_specifically_ for E85. I'm told ethanol behaves a lot like high-octane
gasoline, which means an engine built for ethanol could have greatly increase
compression, which can improve economy. Alternatively, you can run much higher
boost, which I _believe_ can directly improve efficiency, or can simply be
combined with a very small engine.

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tim-locke
Ethanol separates from gasoline in about a month. If the gas sat at the gas
station for a few weeks before you bought it, it can separate before you use
it up.

Ethanol will eventually damage the rubber and other components of your non-
ethanol-safe fuel system. These components can be replaced with ethanol safe
ones.

Small engines in lawn mowers, snow blowers, chainsaws, etc. seem to be more
susceptible to damage from gasoline with ethanol in it.

In some places, the high octane gasoline does not have ethanol in it but some
cars do not run as well on high octane gas because the gasoline does not
ignite at the most efficient time for the engine. Where I live, high octane
gasoline has no ethanol, and mid grade gasoline has half as much ethanol as
regular grade does. Apparently our mid-grade is a 50/50 mix of regular and
high-grade. I don't know if that makes sense, but that is what I've been told
by 4-5 different people.

My car does not get as good mileage out of E10 gasoline. I experimented with
using high octane gasoline and found that, even though high octane costs more,
the extra miles per gallon I got was worth the extra cost. This will likely
not be the case in cars that do not run well on high octane gasoline.

In my area, we do have a few gas stations that sell ethanol-free gasoline.

~~~
bonzoesc
> In some places, the high octane gasoline does not have ethanol in it but
> some cars do not run as well on high octane gas because the gasoline does
> not ignite at the most efficient time for the engine.

I don't believe this is the case. Gasoline engines with higher compression
need the higher octane fuel because it won't ignite at the temperature and
pressure in the cylinder prior to the spark plug firing. Once the plug fires,
the temperature and pressure are right for gasoline of any octane level within
reason to combust.

There's no downside to running high-octane racing gasoline through a low-
compression engine like the Atkinson-cycle engine in the Prius, but no benefit
either. Other engines, like the 5.0 V8 in the Mustang GT, have different
performance ratings for different grades of fuel. Still other engines, like
the 2.0T I4 in the Volkswagen GTI, require high octane fuels for the extra
compression they run.

~~~
dmckeon
If the engine has adaptive ignition (retards spark in response to
pinging/detonation) then using lower octane fuel in a higher-compression
engine may not result in engine damage - just less power.

OTOH, using higher octane than the manual / engine specs call for is just a
waste of money for no extra power - but is not damaging to the engine.

One of the less-noticed issues with ethanol as a fuel is that it
contains/provides ~33% less energy than gasoline[1] - so saving n% per gallon
at the pump may cost you n% in mileage down the road. [1]
[http://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.cfm?id=27&t=4](http://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.cfm?id=27&t=4)

More stops for gas might benefit fuel vendors by providing them more
opportunities to sell you higher-profit impulse or convenience purchases over
the counter.

~~~
lostlogin
It's not as bad as damage from pinging, but fuel lines may still end up
perishing - I have never seen this but have read of it

------
jasonzemos
Are there any engineers here with actual firsthand knowledge? Or are we just
going through the usual repetitions of viral online propaganda?

The "energy to mass ratio" is a straw man. It's a wholly meaningless and
propagandist-type figure that people like to repeat. What we really ought to
do is load cars with plutonium so their energy to mass ratio is just
absolutely stellar, right? I've been running E85 in my 2006 Subaru -- a setup
I designed specifically to work at compression and intake temperatures only
ethanol is capable of dealing with. If my car ran gasoline in these conditions
it would quickly explode.

If the problem with ethanol is economics, let's discuss that. When people
mince economics and engineering this way it reminds me of christian scientists
or something mincing god and empirical facts. It's just offensive.

~~~
CamperBob2
_I've been running E85 in my 2006 Subaru -- a setup I designed specifically to
work at compression and intake temperatures only ethanol is capable of dealing
with. If my car ran gasoline in these conditions it would quickly explode._

And this tidbit of knowledge is useful to the rest of us how?

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1010011010
Where can I get E0? Ethanol in gas means I am burning food and tax dollars.

~~~
lostlogin
Using E0 hasn't been cheap for America. The low pump prices paid have made for
a car market where small and efficient is less popular than elsewhere on
earth, and the prices paid for middle eastern stability (which hasn't been
very successful) has been footed by huge (mainly US) military expenditure.

~~~
justincormack
Small and efficient are popular elsewhere because US gas taxes are hugely
lower than the rest of the world (other than producer countries that have huge
subsidies, like Saudi and Venezuela). US taxes average 49c a gallon vs UK $4
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuel_tax> and thats what makes the difference.

~~~
lostlogin
Yes. And much of the rest of the world perceives (rightly or wrongly) that the
Middle East is that mess that it is in part because of the US need to maintain
their low prices by guaranteeing supply through military aid and maintenance
of some terrible governments.

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sc68cal
I'm a motorcycle enthusiast, and I remember this getting some attention in the
motorcycle industry.

Ducati is involved in a lawsuit because the plastic that they use for the gas
tank, some believe that the ethanol that is being mixed in eats away at the
material.

[http://www.ducatinewstoday.com/2010/11/ducati-sued-over-
faul...](http://www.ducatinewstoday.com/2010/11/ducati-sued-over-faulty-gas-
tanks/)

It's ended up mobilizing some motorcycle enthusiasts, with some advocacy
groups submitting a petition to the EPA.

[http://www.clutchandchrome.com/news/news/ethanol-too-much-
fo...](http://www.clutchandchrome.com/news/news/ethanol-too-much-for-
motorcycles)

The AMA (American Motorcycle Association) has come out against proposed
ethanol standards:

>“The AMA supports the use of cleaner-burning fuels, but we are concerned that
gasoline containing more than 10 percent ethanol could result in premature
engine damage or failure while a motorcycle is being ridden,” Imre Szauter,
AMA government affairs manager said last year, “We’re also concerned about any
degradation in performance, fuel economy and rideability that may result from
the long-term use of blended fuels with greater than 10 percent ethanol.”

------
jrabone
One thing not mentioned so far is the use of high pressure fuel pumps for
common-rail injection petrol engines. This used to be something you only found
on diesels. The lubricity of diesel fuel is a factor in the design and
longevity of the high pressure (~1000s PSI) pump.

Some models (eg. E90 BMW 335i) suffered from early high pressure fuel pump
(HPFP) failures in the US. It would be interesting to find out if there's any
hard data on this (I imagine it'll be closely guarded by the manufacturers)
but I'd suspect ethanol in the fuel as a factor - ethanol is even less of a
lubricant than petrol and the HPFP may well suffer additional friction as a
result.

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afarrell
While this is n executive decision, the EPA is still subject to legislative
influence by those that hold the power of the purse. There are currently 18
members of the U.S. Senate Committee on the Environment and Public Works.

Barbara Boxer - California

Max Baucus - Montana

Tom Carper - Delaware

Frank Lautenberg - New Jersey

Ben Cardin - Maryland

Bernie Sanders - Vermont

Sheldon Whitehouse - Rhode Island

Tom Udall - New Mexico

Jeff Merkley - Oregon

Kirsten Gillibrand - New York

James Inhofe - Oklahoma

David Vitter - Louisiana

John Barrasso - Wyoming

Jeff Sessions - Alabama

Mike Crapo - Idaho

Lamar Alexander - Tennessee

Mike Johanns - Nebraska

John Boozman - Arkansas

According to
[http://epw.senate.gov/public/index.cfm?FuseAction=Members.Ho...](http://epw.senate.gov/public/index.cfm?FuseAction=Members.Home&CFID=12986075&CFTOKEN=12020127)

------
ars
Ethanol also reduced MPG.

So to compares prices per gallon you need to derate the E15 (and the E10).

Does anyone have the numbers? Like 1 gallon of E10 is equal to .9 gallon of
E0, etc?

~~~
greenyoda
"Vehicles will typically go 3–4% fewer miles per gallon on E10 than on
straight gasoline."

Source: <http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/ethanol.shtml>

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wissler
To save the environment, we need to use fuel that destroys cars prematurely.
Makes sense.

~~~
philwelch
If it got cars off the road without replacing them, it _would_ make sense.
Unfortunately this isn't the case, because it's now a matter of federal
interest to save the auto industry.

