
Gaming the H-1B system for good - FabioFleitas
http://blog.triplebyte.com/gaming-the-h-1b-system-for-good
======
proberts
I practice immigration law and work with startups. I think that this is an
excellent idea/model. My only concern is that the startup/employer not seek
reimbursement from the employee for any of the costs associated with the H-1B
process (filing fees and legal fees), including the fee (equal to 25% of the
employee’s first year salary) paid to TripleByte by the startup/employer. This
is prohibited. The main point of the thread, however, from my standpoint is
that startups should not shy away from hiring employees who are in H-1B status
simply because they are startups. While USCIS might question the operations
and finances of the startup, almost always these concerns/questions can be
overcome.

~~~
gopalv
> my standpoint is that startups should not shy away from hiring employees who
> are in H-1B status simply because they are startups.

This does solve the hiring manager's problem, but will raise red flags with
the outsourced employee's personal risk profile.

There is another rush for a lawyer if the startup you were hired into gets
restructured (acquired/merged).

Honestly TripleByte can offer a small "outplacement" insurance package to the
employee being hired (as a revenue stream) - which works out nearly the same
as having a "talent agent" retainer in the business, except one who knows how
to navigate the legal wrangles when you need a new gig.

------
FlyingSnake
I was working on H1-B for 6 years in the USA. The long wait time, and utter
unpredictability of the Green Card system was insane. Being Indian didn't help
either, as we are subjected to 12+ years of wait (EB3 quota). The stupid H4
laws made my highly qualified wife unable to work. Finally I kicked the plush
job and American dreams and moved to Europe. My employer called me ungrateful
and selfish for leaving after he spent $7k on my visa. I loved the USA but
honestly life has never been better.

I'm sure there are few people on HN who want to keep immigrants out of the
USA, but that's bad policy in the long run. I hope this debate around H1B will
facilitate a better visa regime.

~~~
chrisper
Hi!

I am currently on a student visa in the U.S. and was considering trying the
H-1B route. However, since it is so tiresome and it literally can make you
waste years of your life, I was thinking to not even bother. When I was doing
research, most people say that the US is the best place to be at as a SE. This
makes it sound like if you are doomed everywhere else. I am happy to see that
you seem to be a counterexample to this. If you don't mind me asking, how
"bad" is it really to be in Europe instead of US as a SE? Which country do you
live in? People say pay is so much lower in Europe, but does it really affect
you that much?

Thanks!

~~~
dirkdk
Europe is not that bad. Yes it is nice to earn $120k in Silicon Valley, but
life is extremely expensive with $3500/m rent for a 1br apt. Get a job in my
home town Amsterdam, earn $80k and spend only $1000 on an apartment. Uber
moved its mobile engineering team there for a reason.

In general, the entrepreneurial scene is much smaller, but if you want to
concentrate on SE Europe is fine.

~~~
rb2k_
> nice to earn $120k in Silicon Valley > $3500/m rent for a 1br apt

I think you are a bit off on both :)

Salary:

As a Software Engineer, chances are you can a bit more (especially including
bonus + RSU). If you're "senior" you can earn quite a bit more.

Also: There are tons of other small perks that add up (phone/internet
reimbursement, free food, public transport pass, free electric car charging,
...)

Rent:

You can currently get a 2 BR, 2 BR in Mountain View for about $3500 (managed
newish building 2 minutes from Castro)

(Source: moved to Valley from Europe via Boston)

~~~
dirkdk
In San Francisco you need $4,225 for a 1br

[http://blog.sfgate.com/ontheblock/2015/06/02/san-
franciscos-...](http://blog.sfgate.com/ontheblock/2015/06/02/san-franciscos-
median-rent-hits-a-ridiculous-4225/)

~~~
refurb
That's not true at all. Check out Craigslist. You can still find one-bedrooms
for under $3K.

~~~
MagnumOpus
He talked about the median from Zillow. You are talking about the bottom
decile 1-bed being hawked on Craigslist. Ask yourself, as a developer on six
figures, would you want to live in the latter?

~~~
refurb
The bottom decile in SF is more like <$2,000/month. Or even <$1500.

$2500-$3000/month will get you a nice 1-bedroom in some of the more desirable
neighborhoods.

I should know, I just spent a month finding one.

------
harichinnan
I was on H1B with a true blue American startup. They developed cold feet when
it came closer to sponsoring Green Cards. To start with GC wage levels are
much higher than H1B levels. Also close to 15K+ needs to be spent for
processing+ years of patient follow up to USCIS queries/denials and surprise
site inspections. The new fangled startups won't have the long term
strategy/planning to get me a green card. I had much better luck with a
staffing vendor running an office off his basement. People misunderstand the
H1B outsourcer lock-in. They hold people in through green card
processes/delays. Not through H1B itself. Google for Employment based GC
delays for Indians and Chinese.

~~~
shas3
No country is allowed to get more than 7% of the green cards each year
(roughly speaking). This GC-H1B lock-in problem is very unique to Indians (~10
year wait), and to a lesser extent, Chinese (~4 year wait). The 7% quota would
be illegal were it applied to US citizenship, according to civil rights
legislations of the 1960s (prior to which non-whites were discriminated
against in naturalized-citizenships via quotas).

However, unlike pre-civil rights citizenship quotas, the green card quota
seems ok to everyone. This a moral discrepancy, IMO. Unfortunately, it won't
be addressed in the near future, because though the population affected may be
in the hundreds of thousands, they are not important to any political players.
Even on a generally enlightened forum like HN, you routinely encounter hateful
comments about H1B workers. I think H1Bs deserve some level of representation
in such matters simply because these workers pay the exact same taxes as all
Americans. The situation for many people is utterly hopeless and it should be
of humanitarian concern, here is a moving account from Seattle:
[http://www.seattletimes.com/pacific-nw-magazine/while-
their-...](http://www.seattletimes.com/pacific-nw-magazine/while-their-
husbands-work-immigrant-wives-often-struggle-in-this-new-land/)

I think the notion that after working (and paying taxes) in the US for 6
years, a person has to wait another 10 years to reap the benefits of permanent
residency simply because they were born in a particular country is morally
indefensible.

~~~
ambrood
> I think the notion that after working (and paying taxes) in the US for 6
> years, a person has to wait another 10 years to reap the benefits of
> permanent residency simply because they were born in a particular country is
> morally indefensible.

I came here on a student visa at 17, went on get a CS Masters and now live in
SF on a H1B almost 10 years later. America is pretty much the only country I
know how to navigate as an adult. The fact that it is mathematically
impossible for me to get a GC before 2025 as an Indian used to upset me quite
a bit. H1B simply doesn't allow one to live with dignity or take chances. But
over this year, I've made my peace with this. I'll continue to work here while
I still love my job but eventually go back. Theres no way in hell I'll keep
working the same job years on in hopes of a gc.

~~~
jzwinck
If you can get a well-paying job you could move to Singapore, where English is
an official language, India is much nearer, and the process from initial entry
to permanent residency can be completed within three years (n.b. it is not
guaranteed but you can reapply). And if you can navigate in America you'll not
have a problem in Singapore.

~~~
thansharp
The problem is that your kids (male) might have to undergo conscription. I
know the situation is changing now, but that was a large deterrant behind a
lot of my friends leaving Singapore.

------
NearAP
I read through the article and I wouldn't refer to their approach as 'gaming'
the H-1B system. People who are on H1-B tend not to leave their companies for
2 main reasons

1) They've entered into some agreements where they agree to pay the company
some big penalty if they leave. This is clearly illegal but still happens. So,
the employee knows he/she can do a job transfer but the penalty holds them
back. Some of them might be advised to seek a lawyer but they worry about the
expense involved. Bottom line is they are scared to move because of this.

2) The person has started the Green Card Process and does not wish to 'go back
to the end of the line' which happens if they switch jobs unless they have
gotten to the final stage of the Green Card Process and have waited for 180
days with no decision taken on their application.

~~~
e15ctr0n
This is the most thoughtful and well-reasoned comment in this entire thread.
Would like to see Triplebyte respond to it.

~~~
rodrigokumpera
It's right on spot, if you're on H-1B, there's very little reason (or time) to
switch jobs if green card sponsorship in not on the table.

------
sytelus
Whole H1B system is essentially modern form of slavery. I've seen people
becoming multi-millionaires exploiting this slavery system. Companies in India
have amassed massive revenues exploiting the same. The way it works is you put
advertise in newspaper for minimum expected wage for tech worker. Then you buy
a genius 3rd world tech worker and sell him/her to clients for approximately
twice that rate. Then you put significant chunk of income which was supposed
to be all theirs in to your pocket. Even if you managed to sell only 10 tech
workers you will be minting close to million dollars a year for absolutely
doing nothing but the initial paper work. Companies like TCS, Wipro etc
typically have 100s thousands of such workers for sell. The reason this is
slavery is because your ability to negotiate your wages is extremely limited.
Sure, you can transfer your H1B but companies which accommodates such transfer
is few and far between because of cost and legal people they have to keep on
their staff. Most startups are immediately out of question for employment, for
example. Further, if your H1B is coupled with green card application then it
puts further friction in changing jobs.

So in effect, H1B is just glorified tech slavery. The way to fix this system
would be to allow H1B workers to apply anywhere they want without effecting
other processes such as green cards. This would immediately not only stop
slave labor but also bring wage parity to market.

~~~
harichinnan
Using the term slavery for describing a highly paid white collar job is doing
disservice to the descendants of slaves. Let's not get too far with the
terminology.

~~~
Apocryphon
It's somewhat more accurate to liken it to indentured servitude.

~~~
refurb
So you're saying H1-B workers can't leave? That's not true.

~~~
finance-geek
Are you saying they can leave with the same ease that citizens can leave?
That's not true.

~~~
refurb
Of course not, they aren't citizens. Are you suggesting we give immigrants the
same rights as citizens as soon as they arrive?

~~~
gizmo
Giving people equal rights?? The horror!

All people living in the same region should obviously have the same rights.
They pay taxes like everybody else so of course they should get equal
representation as well.

~~~
refurb
So you'd be up for non-permanent immigrants voting, running for President,
taking jobs that handle classified info, etc?

I'm not.

~~~
gizmo
Yes of course. You can't become President unless the masses vote for you.
That's democracy. As for classified info, there are background checks for
that. No reason to presuppose people who grew up in a different country
automatically have ulterior motives.

------
kgp7
This assumes that the H1B's filed by the outsourcing companies are engineers
your startup would want to hire. Unfortunately thats not true, most good
quality engineers are almost never employed by these outsourcing firms. The
general nature of their work also is mostly maintenance based , and it tends
to attract bottom of the barrel 'engineers' who often couldn't find any other
job. I am skeptical whether any of these 'engineers' would pass the interview
gauntlet at many startups.

~~~
Harj
This is why we think there's an opportunity for us (Triplebyte). Smaller
companies have to focus their recruiting on pools with a high expected ROI
(top technology companies/schools/etc). We're specializing in identifying
talent without using any of the the usual signals (we do our technical
interviews without looking at resumes). We can focus on pools of talent that
other companies might not consider because they expect the majority of
candidates wouldn't be a good fit.

Also in this particular case, I fundamentally believe there are a number of
talented engineers working at these outsourcing companies because it was their
only option and they're too afraid to move.

~~~
negrit
It also assume they won't terminate the H-1B when the employee is leaving.

~~~
snotrockets
IANAL, but you can apply for a transfer without the original employer
knowledge, and once that transfer is approved, then the previous employer can
do nothing about that.

~~~
baby
From everything I read, your current employer HAS to accept the transfer.
Makes it way more trickier than what the blog makes it look like.

------
vskarine
I transferred H1-B multiple times and here is my take on this: This can solve
some problems but not all. Some things to think about:

\- For example, if you go work for outsourcing company that pays only when
there is work to be done (this is illegal by the way) then as soon as you try
to transfer visa, you will be kicked out of US and company will be in trouble.
The reason for this is that when you transfer visa they require you to provide
pay stubs for at least trailing 3 months. If these pay stubs don't add up to
what you were suppose to get paid, you and the company will be in trouble.

\- Early stage StartUps will generally pass costs and co-ordination of getting
green card on you.

\- More problems will come when you try to apply for green card. Transparency
in salary is not something startups like so management will be reluctant to
advertise your salary publicly which is mandatory during the process (postings
around the office, outside the building, newspapers, company website, etc).

~~~
transitorykris
It is not legal for the employee to bear the costs of the green card. Yes,
there will be some coordination work with collecting documentation, medicals,
etc.

Triplebyte also seems mistaken about how the H1B transfer works:

"If you're working on a H-1B at one of these outsourcing companies, apply to
Triplebyte and we'll cover all the costs of transferring your H-1B."

Or are just that many employees being ripped off?

~~~
otoburb
>It is not legal for the employee to bear the costs of the green card.

Can you help clarify this? The three stages I'm aware of to obtain permanent
residence in the United States are:

1) PERM (Department of Labour certification)

2) I-140

3) I-485

The PERM is (always?) undertaken and paid for by the employer. The I-140 is
also sponsored by the employer, so should be paid by the employer. But the
I-485 (the actual green card application) does not have to be paid by the
employer. If you submit I-485 forms for your family members, those also do not
need to be paid by the employer.

This is separate from attorney fees (if any) to obtain the I-485 for you or
your family.

Disclaimer: IANAL, but I basically went through this process (minus the PERM).

------
untog
This is an interesting idea. H1B visas are entirely transferrable, but some
employees never find that out (the shady outsourcing companies aren't exactly
incentivised to point it out). That said, whenever I've transferred my H1B my
future employer has been paying for it - if they didn't, I'd be suspicious
about how committed they really are. So, if Triplebyte (a hiring agency) pays
it instead of the employer then, sure, go crazy. But it doesn't make a huge
difference to me.

That said, I can see opportunity for a hiring agency that is knowledgable
about the H1B process and could even refer lawyers to companies. Many new
startups have no idea what they're doing, and are turned off from employing
people on H1Bs because of it.

~~~
Harj
We do indeed refer lawyers to companies, in particular ones who have filed a
number of these petitions for YC startups in the past so we know they're good.

------
djb_hackernews
I sort of like this except startups typically pay below market salaries which
is sort of against the spirit of the H1-B visa right? And if the startups
aren't paying below market salaries then why do they need H1-Bs?

Suppose I am an SF based startup and I get a candidate from triplebyte that is
on H1-B and is paid 66k by a body shop as a Level 1 Computer Programmer [0]
but she is obviously talented and got taken advantage of by the body shop. Is
it legal/ethical for me to still pay her ~66k if it seems like she really
should be a Level 4 Systems Software Developer[1] at 138k?

[0]
[http://www.flcdatacenter.com/OesQuickResults.aspx?code=15-11...](http://www.flcdatacenter.com/OesQuickResults.aspx?code=15-1131&area=41884&year=16&source=1)

[1]
[http://www.flcdatacenter.com/OesQuickResults.aspx?code=15-11...](http://www.flcdatacenter.com/OesQuickResults.aspx?code=15-1133&area=41884&year=16&source=1)

~~~
outworlder
Not sure if they are paying below market salaries. H-1B households are
restricted to a single income. They could be paying below average market
salaries, but 66k won't fly in the bay area. I haven't seen to many software
engineers living under the bridges.

Disclaimer: the single income restriction is why I fought to get a L-1 visa
instead.

~~~
kirubakaran
"H-1B households are restricted to a single income"

This isn't true anymore [http://www.immihelp.com/h4-visa-
ead/](http://www.immihelp.com/h4-visa-ead/)

~~~
edudar
Still true. H4 EAD falls into very specific categories, both are listed by the
link. Either post I-140 which is 2/3 to a GC or beyond 6 years which is quite
specific.

------
Joky
It tries to hurt the big outsourcing companies, but unless it manages to
transfer (tens of) thousands of engineers each year they just won't notice
it...

Also, very often a company needs someone qualified and found a particular
candidate they want and tries to apply for him. I'm not sure how taking one of
the many low qualified "engineer" coming with these outsourcing companies
would fit the need here.

~~~
Harj
We do full technical interviews with applicants and at this point, we have a
pretty solid dataset on how to calibrate them and would be confident any
engineers we're working with have the skills startups are looking for.

Our goal isn't to directly hurt the outsourcing companies, it's to help
talented engineers find work they enjoy and not be held back by visa fears.
Even doing that for a few people would be worthwhile.

------
kunle
This is pretty interesting. One thing I've seen happen with H-1B employees is
that they feel trapped as a consequence of being sponsored by their employer.
If this enables those 'trapped' individuals to more easily switch jobs, then
it won't matter as much that the big companies are gaming the lottery.

------
anovikov
Is it the lottery in the literal sense? I.e. are applicants who match the
requirements and wanted by employers are randomly selected just as the DV
lottery winners are?

~~~
ktu100
yes, your understanding is correct. The odd was 1 out of 3 this year I think.

~~~
anovikov
it only proves again that H1B process is seriously broken. they must have
sorted people by salary in the offer picking higher paid.

------
1024core
I think it was mentioned before by someone else, but I'll just repeat it
because it bears repeating: H-1B visas should not go by lottery, but by
descending order of salary. At a high enough price, it's cheaper to hire an
American... ;-)

~~~
rezashirazian
this would be a good idea if it didn't corner the visa for tech companies in
the valley that generally pay much higher wages.

All briliant non-tech scientist would have no chance of getting the visa.

~~~
fredophile
First, there are other categories a brilliant scientist could use. The O visas
are set up for this type of person. Second, if brilliant, non-tech scientists
aren't getting as high a wage as a code monkey then can you really say there
is a shortage of non-tech scientists? One of the main justifications of the
H1B program is that it fills a shortage. If there is a real talent shortage
then wages should increase as the supply of available workers dwindles.
Allocating visas based on wage is a rough attempt to identify the biggest
shortages and fill them. It also helps address the criticism that H1B visas
are used to drive down wages.

------
arank
Understanding the mindset of people who are working at these giant
corporations mainly TCS, Infosys, Tech Mahindra and Wipro is important if this
plan has to be successful. Many of my friends work at these companies and have
been to US to work onsite with clients. When I asked them why they don’t look
for another job in US, their take was that they don’t want to settle in US.
They have their family, friends in India and they just want to make their
“money” and return home. They don’t consider themselves “cheap labor” as the
article states because they do save a lot of money as compared to what they
were making in India. They also don’t want to take a risk of branching out and
working at a startup unless its a big name. Which is understandable, very few
of them have worked at startups and with most startups failing they don’t want
to take the risk of finding another job or going back to India empty handed.
Unless they have studied in US and did a couple of part time jobs or
internships in US its tough to convince someone to be a part of your startup.
That said, I will love for this idea to be successful. Good luck!

------
tosseraccount
A scholarly take on the guest worker visas from Civil Rights advocate Norm
Matloff ... [
[http://heather.cs.ucdavis.edu/h1b10min.html](http://heather.cs.ucdavis.edu/h1b10min.html)
]

... major attraction for employers, especially in Silicon Valley, is the
"handcuffed" status of H-1Bs ...

There is no tech labor shortage.

No study, other than those sponsored by the industry, has ever shown a
shortage.

~~~
shas3
> There is no tech labor shortage.

"Tech labor shortage" is not a clear-cut black-and-white issue. The market is
not fully elastic to easily use terms such as 'shortage', etc.

Say, you need to build a team of 5 machine learning scientist with specific
experience in image recognition, there may be 100 people in the country
specializing in this field, and perhaps 10 of them are the job market, and 7
are international citizens. Then you have a serious case of shortage, and face
the possibility of losing the project/business/market to a company in Israel,
India, or China that has the requisite staff or to a company in Canada or
Australia, where immigration laws are more sensible.

At the same time, there may be no shortage for generally skilled engineers
fresh out of college.

~~~
djb_hackernews
why would only 10% of qualified individuals be on the market? Wouldn't all of
them be? Unless you are counting retired, infirmed, and imprisoned?

Generally skilled engineers are great for training programs.

~~~
shas3
I think it is reasonable to assume that only a percentage of the experts will
be willing to quit their job and move to a new one. People have all sorts of
reasons to stick to current jobs!

~~~
djb_hackernews
Everyone has a price... If there are experts out there that fit your need but
you can't attract them because you aren't paying enough then you should
increase your offer. Supply will meet demand.

~~~
dangrossman
Businesses don't have infinite resources to hire workers, and most workers old
enough to truly be experts are not going to relocate easily. 1x, 2x, even 3x
market wages won't be enough to move someone that's already earning a
comfortable wage, likes their job, and has roots (a home, a spouse that likes
_their_ job, children in school, family nearby) in their current community. No
single digit multiple of market wages would get me to move to Silicon Valley,
let alone the middle of West Virginia.

~~~
finance-geek
Luckily, you are just one person. Here, we're speaking about an entire market.
And yes, 2x and 3x market wages would absolutely cause major shifts in labor.
Even < 2x market wages would accomplish this. It already happens the other
way, 1.5x and 2x market wage multiples drive flow of skilled engineers from
California to Wall Street.

------
vigneshv_psg
As far as i know, most of the outsourcing companies have a contract with the
employee that will make the employee pay a huge fine if he quits them after
moving to the US. I'm not sure about the legality of this, but a lot of
companies enforce this somehow.

(source: i'm indian and i have a lot of friends who moved here on a H1B
through the 'outsourcing' companies).

------
srameshc
This is not 'Gaming' for benefit of better talent over good or bad. This is
simply 'Transfer' and everyone who has an approved H1B knows that transfer is
an option. So this is an advertorial which simply says you transfer your H1B
to us and we will get you a contract somewhere, regardless of your talent.

------
EduardoBautista
This does nothing to address the problem of the initial application.

~~~
chillydawg
No, but it helps create a market for what is essentially a very valuable good
that was being farmed by giant body shops. The underlying system is flawed but
I doubt the us congress will ever pass a sensible immigration bill so
workarounds like these are as good as it gets for now.

~~~
vaishaksuresh
Actually the giant bodyshops don't prevent people from transferring. It is the
tiny body shops that are operated illegally here in the US that try and do
this. I've worked at one big body shop and know for a fact that the H1B via is
considered a gateway to come onsite. Many employees can and do choose to then
transfer to other companies. What triplebyte is doing is not helping the cause
at all. Big companies don't care about people transferring. They'll just file
for more visas. This is actually hurting than helping.

------
rodrigokumpera
Moving to a startup when under H-1B could be a very risky and possibly
disastrous choice.

If those are companies that are illiterate on the most basic things, such the
difference between an H-1B application and a transfer then there's a good
chance they will fuck it up on the important parts.

Important things like H-1B renewal schedule, green card sponsorship, visa
renewal expenses and so on.

You change jobs and the next thing you know is that you're stuck in the USA
for up to 6 months because one of the overworked founders didn't apply for the
renewal early enough.

The above is an easily manageable one compared to all the horror scenarios
that a mismanaged H-1B immigration can be.

------
something123
So is this a program that makes it easier for people to change jobs after
coming to the US on an H1B? Doesn't sounds like they're gaming anything, but
it does sound like something that's sorely needed.

As and aside, with all the offtopic comments going one: while the H1B program
is definitely flawed I think it's amazing that no one stops to consider the
ethics of draining the 3rd world of its talent.

If there are all these amazing talented programmers in India or wherever, then
maybe YC should open an office there

------
anpk
So the solution is transfering them to triplebyte and then match them to a
startup?

Who pays them in the meanwhile because I believe its illegal to be on H1b and
not be employed (being paid)?

~~~
Harj
They wouldn't be transferred to us or spend any time unemployed. Once someone
goes through our process, we become their advocate and find them startups
they'd be a good match for. They don't have to leave their employer until
they've found one willing to hire them, at which point they can begin the
transfer process.

~~~
anpk
If you are acting as any recruiter, how exactly are you gaming the h1b system?

~~~
singlow
By improving the mobility of h1b holders and depleting the return on
investment for the staffing agencies.

~~~
anpk
I understand what they are attempting, but I guess I was more intrigued by the
"gaming" part. Was hoping they found some loophole, but its not very
interesting if they are acting as regular recruiters.

------
FD3SA
Does Triplebyte do TN visas? They're almost trivially simple to do, so the
candidate could take care of it themselves without any help from the
sponsoring company.

~~~
boulos
Careful about TN though. The T in TN is temporary, so it prevents you from
applying for say a Greencard or an H1-B (which are attempts to be not
temporary).

Disclaimer: IANAL but I recently looked into a lot of this.

~~~
FD3SA
TN allows for 3 years per visa and unlimited visa renewals, so as long as you
demonstrate that you aren't trying to gain citizenship, the US embassy
shouldn't mind.

As a Canadian, I have no interest in becoming a US citizen. On a TN visa you
can open bank accounts (including investment), buy cars and real estate and do
everything other than start a company. It's incredibly convenient and painless
compared to an H1-B.

Most people gunning for H1-Bs want to become US Citizens. Canadians have no
such need, we just want to work in the US legally and be able to buy stuff and
make investments, all of which you can do easily on a TN.

~~~
xbeta
That's BS. TN doesn't help Canadians with family. Also US CBP can always
terminate your TN visa on the border if they "think" you are abusing. H-1B is
safer for that reason.

~~~
xipho
Any visa can be terminated for any reason at the border, no difference there
b/w TN and H-1B (IANAL).

~~~
xbeta
Well, it's not really a law, but attorney has suggested that CBP normally
don't terminate H-1B at border vs TN as H-1B does have a dual intent, so they
can't just say you have an "immigration intention" to deny your visa at
border.

And that's definitely an advantage over TN.

------
mwnz
This really isn't gaming the H-1B system at all.

------
titomc
This is my life story in US till now. My H1B visa was applied thru one of the
biggest Indian consulting companies and I started working in Kansas. The
project was awesome and I loved the work and our team was programming for the
connected cars. We were paid peanuts by our employer around 62K which was the
bare minimum mandated by LCA in Kansas location. But I didn't care about the
peanuts they were giving me , I loved the project and my client. We were doing
something cool which wasn't CRUD ;)

During that time , I got promoted and my salary increased by 200$/month. At
the same time , another vendor took over our project. So the resource
management people from my employer called me and told "Since you are earning
more salary ( 62K + 200$/month ) , you are not eligible for any other job
location as per the company policy and you have to go back to India. So book
your tickets & get ready to fly back !

The amount of depression I had to face was immense. It was December in Kansas
and it was very cold. I remember smoking 2 packs of cigarettes inside my
apartment every day. I had a used car which was under loan from DCU. My
apartment lease had 5-6 months left. I was in total jeopardy thinking what to
do. Thank god I was not married & had kids going to school, because pulling
kids out of school and flying them back to India , making them adjust to the
environment back in India would have been a nightmare. Kids will have had a
huge culture shock.

Still, being a bachelor, I felt very bad. But I put myself together and
started applying for companies thru linkedin and indeed. Two companies
responded and I went thru many levels of interview ( I already had flight
tickets booked, my bags almost packed and gave power of attorney to my friend
to sell the car and settle the loan ). With all those things happening in the
background , I cleared the interview for both of the companies for full time
employment. I had to fly to company locations for face to face. ( Both
companies arranged the travel & stay )

Both companies were ready to transfer my H1B visa. I chose the big financial
services company thinking about my job security as an H1B worker. Here comes
the catch ! They were not ready to negotiate the salary. They are no small
company ( It is the top financial services company)

The HR knew very well knew that I was on H1B and the stupid me told them that
I desperately need to transfer my visa , since my Indian employer told me to
go back to India. So they took advantage of the situation and were not willing
to negotiate. I had to settle with 80K/year with the big financial services
company and they transferred my visa in premium & I resigned from the Indian
employer. It was either take it or leave situation and I had no other choice
but to accept the offer.

To summarise , I am no low skilled worker and I cleared the interviews very
well. I am well qualified and good at my programming skills. The American
counterparts in my office earn more than me ( ~120K ) for the same skillset
and work that I do. So how did I ended up like this ? Just because of this
broken immigration system. I had to transfer my visa without negotiating my
salary because of my situation and the rule that I will be out of status from
the very next day my employer stops my payroll.

" I was the victim of this broken immigration system of US ". My situation is
one of the examples of how employers abuse H1B workers.

I am getting married in Jan 2016, so I will stay with my current employer
which took advantage of my situation. And hey my future wife can't work on H4
!. She recently resigned her job at Oracle in India and is preparing for the
wedding. I feel bad for her because now she has to sit in the apartment and
watch TV wasting her productive years in US. She is a Masters degree holder in
finance & has excellent communication skills in both English & French.

So what do I plan to do now ?. Since im getting married in Jan 2016, I will
wait till then. Once I get married , I will switch employer and negotiate a
good salary because right now I am not in that situation while I was in
Kansas.

Will I wait for my greencard to be processed ( 6-7 years ) NO. Why ? I am 30
now , so it will be 38,39 when I get my freedom and that too with the ever
changing rules of USCIS. I don't want to try my luck.

Will I wait for my I-140 to be approved so that my wife can work ? NO. Why ?
Again I dont trust this broken immigration system.

So what am I going to do about this ? , Canadian Express Entry gives
importance to skilled workers rather than the lottery system and I will get PR
within 6 months. My fiance is a degree holder and will get extra points for
French. So we will qualify for the PR system.

I don't want to wait in this uncertainty till I grow old to get my freedom. I
rather trust Canadian Express Entry and move to Canada.

~~~
DrScump
You described the U.S. immigration regulations as "broken immigration system"
_three_ times in that one posting.

Is it substantially easier for foreign workers to immigrate into _your_ home
country?

~~~
nindalf
It actually is. I'm living in India at the moment, surrounded by many Koreans
and Japanese people and a few people from Europe and America. Getting a permit
to work was extremely straightforward for them.

I'm sure you didn't mean to sound extremely rude or ignorant, but that's what
you ended up sounding like.

~~~
DrScump
You are equating getting a "permit to work" with _immigrating_. How many of
those foreigners have a right to _permanent_ residency?

------
lgleason
Startups have already been in a position of being able to do this. Basically
another way to reduce the cost of engineers. After all, it's not a sustainable
business unless your MBA's and management are making many multiples of the
rank and file employees.....dripping sarcasm.

------
dirkdk
In general I think no visa is compatible with startups. Even a relative simple
H1B transfer takes months. All work visas are linked to an employer, and this
is at odds with the fluid nature of startups

------
tn13
There are good number of employers who have some other illegal holds on their
employees. Such as bonds, compensation agreements or in some cases financial
deposits

------
hienchu
Those "company" should try Shanghai's car plate lottery system as well :P

------
arikp9396
considering YC expansion in hardware region, why they are still inclined in
hiring programmers, considering that hardware startup needs hardware techie
and makers? Please help me sort this out. (Apologies for being out of topic)

------
jamisteven
H1b's are killing IT salaries in the states.

~~~
anpk
Can you provide some sources?

~~~
finance-geek
Can _you_ provide a source that shows the laws of economics not applying to
technology labor markets?

As for your source -- how about common sense and the most basic econ 101 chart
on supply, demand and price?
[http://www.investopedia.com/university/economics/economics3....](http://www.investopedia.com/university/economics/economics3.asp)
The higher the supply the lower the price.

~~~
aianus
I don't know if it counts as a 'source' but tech companies in NYC/Seattle/SF
pay $75,000/yr+ to 19-20 year old interns with almost no experience. And not
as a rare occurrence, I had 10 offers at the same time any given term and so
did most of my classmates.

Hardly sounds like they're being exploited and suffering due to a glut in
supply. Either that or "exploitation" rates in the US are double the market
rate in Canada/EU.

~~~
finance-geek
Except that you dont get to decide whether someone is being exploited at a
certain salary or not. _The Market Decides, that is how markets work._ If you
want to pay below market, usually the only way is to broaden the labor pool by
importing workers. If that is your goal, then just be honest about it. Dont
say "x wage is good enough."

Since you do bring up salaries though, after taxes, health premiums, co-pays,
75 will get you a shared 1br rent in SF. If that is good for you, great. Don't
say it "should" be good for everyone, it isnt. We live in a market economy, so
everyone needs to play by the rules, not try to justify market manipulations
with "well, oh, that should be good for you."

~~~
aianus
You can't ask the government to protect your salary from foreign competition
and idolize the free market in the same breath. The fair price of labor is at
the intersection of supply and demand.

Absent government interference, that includes supply and competition from
foreign workers who, surprise, by and large do not feel exploited making more
in a year than their parents back home make in a decade.

~~~
finance-geek
I am absolutely fine in allowing foreign competition. But that is a decision
the American people need to make, weighing the pros and cons. That cant happen
when the primary banner is "Shortage." The conversation cannot be shortage,
shortage, shortage. It should be honest: "we want to import more workers to
reduce domestic salaries"

Of course foreign workers dont feel exploited -- if they did, they would not
come here!

------
pduszak
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