
Challenges facing North Korean defectors [video] - captainmuon
http://www.wsj.com/video/north-korean-defectors-struggle-to-master-money/009D1B6C-804D-4F1F-A3C6-F498E8E5E98E.html
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crystalmeph
"Looking to the future, experts on the region are focusing on what happens ...
when North Korea inevitably collapses"

I'm no fan of the DPRK regime, but isn't it naive to assume that any state,
even a completely mismanaged despotic one, will "inevitably" collapse?

True, they rely on China just for bare survival, but they have their stuff
together enough to create a functioning nuclear weapons program in the face of
crippling sanctions, so it's not infeasible that they could find a way to
continue on if they were totally isolated - maybe they'd kidnap some Monsanto
scientists to provide them with GMO and fertilizer technology. Basically, they
don't currently bother feeding their people because they don't currently have
to, but there's nothing proving they can't adapt if circumstances change.

And I'm not saying they're likely to conquer the world, but with the nuclear
deterrent, it's not terribly likely that the US or anyone will invade them
without direct cause.

~~~
M_Grey
>I'm no fan of the DPRK regime, but isn't it naive to assume that any state,
even a completely mismanaged despotic one, will "inevitably" collapse?

I could not agree more, and if it does collapse there will be a lot of credit
taken for prescience that will amount to having said the same thing for 60+
years. I think the problem is that the intellectual space around the DPRK is
dominated by loud people with minimal expertise, but since expertise is so
lacking, loud counts for a lot. I've read as much as I could on the subject of
the DPRK, and even thoughtful scholars who make very guarded predictions seem
very aware of the limits of their knowledge.

One thing that most of them seem to agree on, is that most of us in the West
underestimate the degree to which the North Korean people are into their own
propaganda/mythology. That at least, seems to match with the struggles that
defectors seem to face with adjustment. In essence, the people in the DPRK
might not buy into the official line in all things, but what they do believe
is no less bizarre.

~~~
valarauca1

         us in the West underestimate the degree to which the 
         North Korean people are into their own propaganda/mythology.
    

A lot of people truly do underestimate this. It is hard for Westerners to
fully conceptualize but the ideological roots of Juche religious aspects.

A surprising number of North Korean _experts_ actively refuse to read Kim Il-
Sung and Kim Jong-il writing on the subject. Which the DPRK actively
distributes online. Ignoring primary sources is weird when you're an _expert_
in subject matter.

The main purpose of Juche (from the ideological, not material stand point) is
inscribing the significance of the socialist revolution into the consciences
of the people at a religious level. As Kim Jong-il goes on to explain that
people _need_ some social construct of a deity figure on a sociology-
psychicological level. The goal of Juche is to place the importance of the
revolution there (as communism is famously extremely anti-religious).

Kim Il-Sung's writes that while socialism may extend to politics, education,
and military life. It does not extend to the social and religious aspects of
life. Without that daily constant re-enforcement people may lose site of its
long term goals. He goes on to blame the failure of the USSR on this, one of
his many critiques of Stalin.

\---

We rarely think but in English the expression, "Oh God." Is one deeply rooted
within the western Juedeo-Christian tradition. It links our culture back to
history of everything Caesar to Charlemagne to WW1 to the present.

Once you can conceptualize that sociology-psychicological connection you can
really see how deep ideological indoctrination can run. Furthermore what Juche
and the DPRK has achieved.

~~~
ue_
>writes that while socialism may extend to politics, education, and military
life. It does not extend to the social and religious aspects of life.

The shaping of cultural life via the relations to the means of production
refers to the shaping of the superstructure by the base, Marx claims. Although
Bookchin has his own ideas (that the superstructure is not entirely shaped by
the base, as evidenced by societies involving shamanism, something which he
claims does not arise out of the economic base) most Marxists believe that
every aspect of society is given rise to by material conditions, i.e the
relationship of people to their means of sustenance. For the proletariat under
capiatalism, this means their culture and way of life is shaped by working in
return for wage-labour.

However I feel as though Il-Sung may have been hinting at something we already
recognise in our own societies; the "American Dream" may be such a substitute
for a deity figure which encourages blind faith in the capitalist system, in
which "anyone can be anything with enough hard work".

So the question is: does Socialism require such a system of belief, or can it
as Marx claims go without due to the normalisation of the Socialist mode of
production? This dilemma is a common theme of debate within Socialism, with
one camp of Orthodox Marxists saying that everything can be explained in terms
of the economic base, while communalists and "identity politicians" claim that
changing the relationship to the MoP does little to eradicate the _cause_ of
non-economic power structures, including shamanism, racism, sexism etc.

------
jtraffic
If you're interested in this topic, I recommend "Nothing to Envy" as an
excellent and illuminating book. It follows defectors mostly before they
leave, but includes a portion afterward. Money struggles are discussed in
detail, along with other difficulties assimilating.

------
coolsdude2282
Interesting side note that is rarely mentioned, a surprisingly large amount of
defectors actually defect back to DPRK. When you are enclosed in something
like DPRK a lot of the time people can't handle the stress of not being in
that sort of system anymore.

One thing to note, there was a study that showed that even when they are in
countries with an abundance of food, their eating habits remained the same.
They ate the same sized small portions that they used to in NK.

As a comment on the article, I think it would be very easy for China to
transition them into a sucessful Chinese model with capitalist reforms whilst
still being totalitarian. The people don't necessarily want 'freedom' as long
as they are adequately taken care of, transposing western mindsets onto them
and assuming that they consider things like 'freedom of speech' as necessary
isn't generally helpful.

~~~
dominotw
> a surprisingly large amount of defectors actually defect back to DPRK.

Do you have source for this?

A typical north korean escaping to china usually has the option of becoming a
slave/wife to a chinese farmer. I would assume that was still a better option
during 'arduous march' days but have things imporved that much since then ?

~~~
coolsdude2282
There are loads of sources for it, it isn't as odd as you would think, it is
even listed on wikipedia with lots of nice sources. Apparently "their number
is thought to be increasing." and "In one case, a double defector re-entered
North Korea four times." [0]

Edit: I added the link to the nutrition study below also. [1]

[0]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Korean_defectors#Double_...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Korean_defectors#Double_defectors)

[1]
[https://synapse.koreamed.org/search.php?where=aview&id=10.41...](https://synapse.koreamed.org/search.php?where=aview&id=10.4162/nrp.2010.4.2.136&code=0161NRP&vmode=FULL)

~~~
dominotw
I was questioning your claim of "surprisingly large" double defectors not that
there are defectors. 13 out of ~1600 is not a significant number. Your second
source is not relevant.

>"In one case, a double defector re-entered North Korea four times."

Constantly sneaking in back forth is a common thing from the documentaries
I've watched. 1. People stealing goods and selling them back home 2. People
stealing supplies to feed their family back home .

~~~
coolsdude2282
Thirteen publicly acknowledged by South Korea, and 700 missing. Most of which,
if you read the cited article are thought to have defected back or attempted
to.

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brilliantcode
This is a small sample of what's to come should North Korea collapse.

I can see that south korea can experience a huge boost in their labor force
that's currently filled by foreigners.

On the other hand, feeding, educating, housing, employing North Koreans to
integrate into South Korea is going to be pretty hard.

China is also unlikely to allow US bases so close to the Yalu river.

When I factor in all these things, I believe that Korea will go through a
transitionary state where two systems in one country emerge.

All in all, it could be that the unification collapses due to the structural
pressure it places on South Korea and it's citizens to oppose it-Nobody in a
capitalistic society is willing to trade away their good life.

Whatever happens, I only wish North Koreans live a free life, whether it's
under South Korea's control or not.

Because North Korean collapse could mean a significant economic burden as East
Germany's collapse was to West....but they've only had couple decades apart,
North Korea is like dealing with Chosun dynasty.

~~~
AnimalMuppet
In my opinion, the US should make it clear to China that if North Korea gets
absorbed by the South, as long as China is not threatening Korea, the US sees
no need for US forces anywhere in the country, let along north of the current
line.

~~~
brilliantcode
If US withdraws from Korea, it's forfeiting it's sphere of influence in the
region. Will it happen one day? Of course. But until that day comes, the US
will not budge until China too is conquered (unlikely).

------
woodandsteel
From what I have read, China hates the North Korean regime, but is afraid of
what would happen if it collapsed, so it keeps supporting it economically.

