
The New MacBook Pro: Unfixable, Unhackable, Untenable - PedroCandeias
http://ifixit.org/2763/the-new-macbook-pro-unfixable-unhackable-untenable/
======
archgrove
The argument doesn't really hold up, as we're only given two choices:
Upgradable, or amazing screen. If there was a third, "Upgradable _and_ amazing
screen" with the applicable price/weight tradeoffs, then the "we can choose"
view would be more tenable.

Regardless, the lack of upgradability isn't something that bugs me. My last
two Apple laptops were "upgradable", but all I ever did was throw some RAM in
there. The subset of people who want to really tinker inside their machines is
vastly outweighed by people who want a very lightweight machine, so offering
the "lightweight" option is a no-brainer. The lack of a upgradable machines as
an _option_ is presumably beause they've done the maths and realised that the
number of people who choose that won't warrant the costs of maintaining the
product line; viz. the death of the 17" Macbook LapCrusher(tm).

There was a comment (I think here) yesterday that said, effectively,
"Upgradability was a defect of technology not being 'good enough' for long
periods". These days, the stock specs of the Macbook Retina will be fine for
even power users for _years_ ; almost certainly the life of a laptop. The tiny
group of "super power users" are those likely to just upgrade their laptops
every couple of years anyway.

~~~
pasbesoin
Off the top of my head (and so, perhaps wrong), I seem to recall the amount
Apple is charging for going from 8 GB to 16 GB to be on the order of US$200.
[1]

For RAM that they are purchasing and installing in volume.

That's a lot of net profit into their pocket, for each unit.

And that's where I have one particular concern: Apple closing down and
engorging itself on yet another market segment (upgrades).

You can argue that it's their product, to do with as they please.

But when they start to own entire supply chains (just how "easy" is it going
to be for competitors to get retina-class displays, in a timely fashion?),
well... you have to start considering the word "monopoly", even if you stick a
"quasi" in front of it.

They've done an excellent job with their products, and with their marketing.
But there's a reason that "competition" continues to be a mantra throughout
the world, one that is held by many factions of differing ideology. Over the
long term, total control tends to go bad.

[1] I don't know from where my memory has retained the $200 figure, but
looking at Apple's web site, I see that switching from the 8 GB / 256 GB
configuration to the 16 GB / 512 GB configuration takes the system price from
$2199 to $2799, for a $600 difference.

[http://store.apple.com/us/browse/home/shop_mac/family/macboo...](http://store.apple.com/us/browse/home/shop_mac/family/macbook_pro/select)

Amazon has a retail Samsung 830 256 GB at $253 and a Samsung 830 512 GB at
$677, for a $424 difference.

~~~
mikeash
Many of Apple's suppliers are also competitors. Samsung, for example, supplies
a lot of iPhone parts while also selling iPhone competitors. I doubt it would
be that difficult for others to source an equivalent display, if they're
willing to pay an equivalent price,

~~~
latch
This isn't how it works. Apple has exclusive deals in place with many of its
suppliers. Many of the parts Apple buy are either not available for anyone
else, or not available at the same price.

One way Apple has done this is to provide some of the initial capital needed
for new plants/technologies. For example, if retooling a plant for new LCD
production costs $1 billion, Apple might front 1/2 the money in exchange for
6-18month exclusivity on those panels.

Also, Apple has scale in its favor. They can negotiate better terms and ensure
that their quota gets filled first.

~~~
Someone
On the other hand, there is nothing that prevents the likes of HP, Acer, Dell
and Samsung to do the same. All of them could have the economics of scale
Apple enjoys, but they choose to have a more diverse product line instead.

Your argument would carry more weight if Apple had a much larger chunk of the
market than all others.

~~~
2muchcoffeeman
I don't buy it. The traditional cycle, if Apple had a new technology first, is
Apple releases it, wait a year and everybody else can do it just as well and
probably cheaper. You can get Android handsets whose specs are better than the
iPhone 4 in every way except the screen.

If a manufacturer could out do the iPhone 4, iPad or MBP screen, they would
have. Especially since they are traditionally spec driven.

~~~
mikeash
There are Android phones with screen resolutions equal or superior to that of
the iPhone. They may not do as well in less concrete terms like overall
quality, but when it comes to common specs with numbers on them, you can do
better on Android.

~~~
spullara
You cannot get an Android phone with the DPI of an iPhone 4 retina display.
I'm sure you know that but you clouded the issue by referencing screen
resolution.

~~~
danboarder
You're mistaken. There are several Android phones with comparable DPI, as well
as others with higher DPI. Edit: For example, while the iPhone4 is 329 DPI,
one LG display for thi years phones is 440 DPI.

~~~
spullara
The LG phone was a prototype, not a shipping phone.

[http://www.macmyth.com/2012/06/touch-screens-5-440-dpi-at-
lg...](http://www.macmyth.com/2012/06/touch-screens-5-440-dpi-at-lg-and-
new.html)

But as others noted there are some with comparable displays, I was just
unfamiliar with them.

------
generalk
I'm on the fence. On the one hand, the new MBP is a fantastic machine and if I
pay the premium for the 16GB of RAM, I'm probably going to be set for years.

That said, I'm currently running the _original_ Late 2008 Unibody Macbook Pro.
It's survived for four years because I've been able to, over time, upgrade the
RAM, replace the spinning disk with an SSD, and replace the aging battery.
SSDs weren't available when I purchased the machine, but because it uses
standard connections the upgrade was easy. I didn't pay an Apple premium for
RAM, I waited a few years and the price dropped even more. And the battery was
a 2-second replacement.

I don't know if I'm comfortable giving that ability up.

~~~
jsz0
Upgrade-by-replacement. In 2 years you'll still be able to sell this machine
for about 70% of its original price. From there you can buy the latest &
greatest model at basically a 70% discount. Factor in the price of the parts
you would have upgraded and I bet it's a wash or pretty close to it.

~~~
driverdan
Where do you get the 70% figure from?

I bought my 2010 MBP almost exactly 2 years ago for $2700 + ~$300 for an SSD +
drive enclosure. Today I'd be lucky to sell it for $1500 considering you can
get a 2011 MBP refurb for that price.

~~~
aes256
Depreciation is going to be worse on the more expensive models. As the initial
purchaser you're effectively paying a premium to be at the 'cutting edge' that
doesn't translate into an increased residual.

That said, pick up a $1,500 MacBook Pro and you shouldn't have any trouble
selling it on for $1,000 after two years of ownership. Even better if you
bought it with a student discount, and it has a three-year warranty (included
with the student discount, at least in the UK).

It's something people often don't consider in the 'Mac vs. PC' debate. Yes, a
MacBook Pro may be $200 more expensive than a similarly specced laptop from
another manufacturer, but it's the total cost of ownership you should be
considering, and PCs tend to depreciate an awful lot worse than Macs...

------
reneherse
There is one thing that to me indicates Apple has really thought through the
consequences of this new design: The fact that the SSD is socketed and thus
user removable. The machine retains that most critical aspect of home or in-
store servicability.

Why this is important: the specific failure case where you have a faulty logic
board, or any other failure that requires a full machine replacement. You
still have the ability to pull out your drive and replace or wipe it before
sending the machine back to Apple for either a complete replacement or "depot"
repair. (No doubt there will be SSDs available with the new connector soon.)

So sure, we've lost the ability for the most common, fun, and economical
upgrades, and that's a let down for those of us who like to tinker. But the
construction of the machine still allows you to protect your personal data
before sending your machine off to be repaired, and I have to believe that is
the most critical issue for power users.

~~~
ctdonath
Bingo. Repairs are now super-easy: move SSD to identical replacement machine,
done.

Makes supply-chain management MUCH easier. For Apple, they can now concentrate
actual repairs in one place, rather than rolling out parts & training & etc.
to stores. Just have a stack of new or refurb units ready to swap and mailers
for returns: user brings in a broken notebook, swap SSD, user has a like-
new[1] machine in minutes and leaves happy, store just mails the broken beast
back for repair in a very efficient & well-equipped facility.

[1] - some hypothesize that Apple refurb units are _better_ than new.

~~~
diegobc
could you expand on the point that refurb units could be better?

Also, remember that most companies get valuable manufacturing feedback by
analyzing failed machines which have been "in the wild."

~~~
ctdonath
Based on very little information and lots of intuition reaching conclusions
shared by others...

Most "refurb" units are just bought-and-returned products. There's nothing
wrong with them. If there is something wrong, it was a problem with a new unit
(either broken at purchase or soon thereafter), someone bought it assuming
"new" better than "refurb" and got a lemon; the problem is easily identified
and replaced with a working part. If something's gonna break, it's gonna break
very near the time of acquisition (or near predicted end-of-life); few
breakages happen during the middle 80-90% of product life.

New machines are cranked out in a factory en mass. Refurbs, most of which are
either undamaged/new or lightly/obviously broken, are individually inspected
with the keen awareness that _this particular unit may very well have a
particular problem_. They receive more attention from better trained
inspectors, and with more...domestic sensibilities. Then they're put thru the
same, if not greater, QA testing as the factory provides.

So, at the risk of the occasional abused machine with deeper chronic problems,
most refurbs are in effect (if not actuality) new units with an added layer of
real-world testing, individualized attention/correction, comprehensive re-
testing, all done within local cultural norms. And you get all of that not at
added cost, but at a discount off the original price.

So the theory concludes (again, just hypothesizing with little knowledge of
what really happens) that the refurbs are the most reliable and/or best value.

~~~
jonah
This general idea - that refurbs are more thoroughly tested and therefore more
reliable - has been confirmed to me by Apple staff.

My guess is that it's primarily the likelihood of failure soon after purchase
which is greatly decreased.

~~~
jpxxx
Let's put this to bed. Returns and refurbs alike are binned into lots of, say,
50 units. Third party repair companies bid on them. The winner takes
possession, runs triage according to apple protocols and apple diagnostic
tools, performs any needed repairs out of pocket, and then places them up for
sale linking in to Apple's web store. The products may also be sold in-store.

Any purchase of a refurb is fulfilled from the repair shop with generic
packaging. Warranties are reset to day 0. The end.

~~~
jpxxx
Oh, and scuzzy remanufacturing shops will sell the truly fucked unrepairable
gear in-store and try to pass it off as new. Get caught and Apple will
annihilate you.

------
gokhan
The title part "But should we really blame Apple?" rather than the original
"UNFIXABLE, UNHACKABLE, UNTENABLE" is a perfect replacement for Apple loving
HN crowd.

~~~
taligent
I love the idea that upgrading RAM/Hard Disk somehow equates to hacking your
machine.

It's akin to someone thinking they are an F1 mechanic because they can replace
the car battery.

~~~
Evbn
How would you define hack, if not fiddling with hardware against the
manufacturers intent?

~~~
jfoutz
Best example off the top of my head is a very old one, adding CD sound
processing to a SPARCstation II

<http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/4.12/ffmassalin_pr.html>

I don't have a super high succes rate with reflow soldering, but my hotplate
isn't quite perfectly flat. I assume the mac boards are all double sided, so
i'd be inclined work out a solder bath style solution. Maybe a friendly
college student would give access to the EE department's stuff. Maybe there's
a cheap benchtop solution. It can't be _that_ bad

------
illamint
I've always been in the camp that rarely replaces the battery in my Mac
laptops, especially with the new LiPo batteries. It's not like they're NiCads
that need replacing every month (I remember having a _stack_ of batteries for
my Powerbook Duo). Additionally, in the past, the only other components I've
replaced have been drives (adding an SSD) and memory (upgrading to the max
amount supported by the board). In this case, you've already got those. If you
go the 16GB route and pick an SSD appropriate to your needs (I'd never want to
trust 768GB of data to one drive in a portable machine, anyways), what's left
to upgrade?

Seriously, most people talk about adding SSDs and replacing drives: it already
_has_ an SSD that is near-as-makes-no-difference fast enough to saturate the
SATA bus. People expecting to get the one-time boost they got from going to a
5400RPM drive to a blazing-fast SSD won't ever experience that again until we
push past SATA interfaces. The 16GB of RAM you can option it out with is also
pretty close to not only the limits of practicality but also the limits of the
chipset. So, those points are moot. Max out the RAM and pick any SSD and
you'll never need to touch them during the lifetime of the computer, and if
you could, it wouldn't have any real effect. The SSD is even socketed so--
should it die--you can replace it.

And, sure, the screen is hard to replace, but it's not like Apple's ever been
the pinnacle of upgradability anyways. What were you expecting, a socketed
processor and some thumbscrews so you could drop in a new chip? Whether you
know it or not, this serves the needs of well over 99% of Apple's market for
the MacBook Pro, and if it doesn't serve yours--if you really insist that you
must be able to replace and/or repair _every single component_ in your
computer, then a Mac wasn't for you in the _first_ place. Two Thunderbolt
ports and two USB 3.0 ports further drive the point home. I do, like many of
you, lament the loss of the "hacker" ethos that enables us to modify our
computers and drop in new parts, but we're kidding ourselves. This isn't a new
state of affairs and we're making a mountain out of a molehill.

~~~
jaems33
During these four years, I have been able to: replace the keyboard (after I
had improperly cleaned it), replace the battery, upgrade the RAM, and upgrade
the HDD. I can give it to a family member as a hand-me-down as it not only
wasn't that expensive but has a lot of newer the components that make age
well.

Four years ago, I was fine with having even just having 2 GB for a bit of
Photoshop and browsing on my current white MacBook. Now, even after expanding
to 6 GB (the undocumented max for this model) I still get memory swapping due
to the newer Photoshop and tons of tabs in Chrome. That's of course, a
limitation of this model. If I had even one of the newer MBPs, I could go up
to 32GB in memory when 16GB sticks come out, as I believe that this Ivy Bridge
model and the early 2011 (not the late 2011) Sandy Bridge MBP's can be
upgraded to 32GB of RAM despite Apple's documentation that it only goes to
16GB.

Unfortunately, because the RAM is soldered, it means I don't really have that
option. Which kind of blows because in three years, 8 GBs could be closer to
the normal use case, and 16GB will probably be what some professionals need,
while 32 GB could become the cushy future proofed number that 16 GB is right
now.

And then with the SSD, I think the idea is that some people (including myself)
would rather pay for the minimum right now, and pay for the upgrade when parts
come down in price. Effectively paying $600 largely for an extra 256GB (as the
processor upgrade of .3GHz is quite unnoticeable for most) isn't outrageous,
but I think the onus is then to front-load the costs instead of appropriately
upgrade when some costs come down. Thankfully, it is possible to upgrade the
hard drive (like Air), only it's just a bit more tricky than a standard SSD
because there are less options outside of OWC.

The Macbook Pro Retina is a great and beautiful computer, but it's the
toughest laptop choice I've had to make in my lifetime. I've always felt
burned by front-loading computers ($4k PowerMac G4 which was a beautiful
machine but easily underpowered after a few years, my hand-bult built $2k
desktop that was outdated six months later when PCI-Express became ubiquitous)
as I rarely feel justified spending $3k on something that is left behind in a
short amount of time, even though I do 100% of my work on it. So I've
preferred going with a bare-bones approach with upgrading components as they
get more economical.

~~~
gcv
YMMV. I have bought fully-loaded mid-release-cycle Apple laptops for the last
ten years, starting with the Rev. D TiBook. Each lasted for several years of
heavy use. At year 3, they started feeling dated, and at year 4, I generally
replaced them.

------
bitwize
Steve Jobs had a dream of selling sealed boxes to customers who would treat
them as appliances, like toasters. That's what he's been pushing for, and now
Apple is on track to doing it. So they deserve half the culpability, inasmuch
as this is a bad thing. The other half is with the people who buy such
machines.

~~~
keithpeter
The use case for a toaster does not change that much, and the mains voltage
and the properties of bread remain reasonably stable. A good toaster can last
for decades.

The things we expect our computers to do change over time, so sealed boxes
must have short lives. That in itself might not be a problem if the boxes
could be returned and factory upgraded in some way. Looks like the bonding of
glass and metal make that harder.

~~~
spartango
A curious question is that of whether the need to upgrade computer components
over the years is _slowly_ starting to decrease. As normal users become more
oblivious to performance improvements (above the 'good-enough' threshold). We
aren't there yet, but perhaps we'll slow enough that people replace entire
machines with the intervals, rather than parts.

------
fjorder
Okay... This is kind of important:

The new Macbook Pro's use Apple's proprietary pentalobe screw.

That statement probably didn't rock your world, but it's one reason why I'm
not buying a macbook pro. This screw has one purpose and one purpose only: to
keep you out of your own laptop. The Air's have been using them for a while.
You may think that you can get a driver when you need one, but it's not as
easy as you think. Apple will not lend or sell you a pentalobe driver. They're
probably actively trying to sue anyone who will. If you can get one, it will
most likely be from an online source and take weeks to arrive.

Why is this bad?

Most users, myself included, don't plan for failure. Life is life. Stuff
breaks. I can fix a lot of it. I've owned relatively few laptops over the
years because I nurse them along into extreme obsolescence. I've spilled
coffee on my laptops many times. If you power-down and remove the battery
immediately and do some careful disassembly/cleaning you can rescue almost any
laptop from a coffee spill no matter how much sugar and cream you take in your
joe. Provided you have the tools to take it apart that is!

My air lasted exactly one spill. I couldn't remove the battery. I couldn't
take it apart. Apple refused to do either for me. They made me wait 4 hours
for an appointment so they could tell me it's now off warranty and offer to
repair it for, I kid you not, more than I paid to buy the air new!

The end result is that my nice 2011 machine aluminum unibody air had a total
life-time of less than a year. These devices may feel like they're built to
last, but a device built to last is _serviceable_. The air's and now the pro's
are built to be disposable.

~~~
Jtsummers
[http://www.ifixit.com/Tools/MacBook-Air-5-Point-Pentalobe-
Sc...](http://www.ifixit.com/Tools/MacBook-Air-5-Point-Pentalobe-
Screwdriver/IF145-090)

It doesn't seem to have been taken down in the year or so that they've had it
in their store. FUD is FUD, and also worthless. One google search for
pentalobe screw turned that up.

I'm not going to defend Apple's decisions, it likely is related to making it
harder for people to open up themselves, but $13 is not cost prohibitive for
anyone buying a >$1k laptop. And for anyone buying a >$2k laptop, a warranty
plan is within reach as well (10% extra).

------
acdha
> Would we support laptops that required replacement every year or two as
> applications required more memory and batteries atrophied?

This is the key misunderstanding most people made: a 2010 MacBook Air still
makes a fine system, even for software developers. For almost all users,
hardware capacity has exceeded their needs for years and the newer battery
technology holds up better than the older designs as well.

~~~
sudonim
When I was 14 I would build my own computer from parts and boy did I care
about upgradability and serviceability. One of the reasons I switched to Apple
is I didn't want to spend time making computers, I wanted to spend time making
things with my computer.

My 2011 Macbook Air is the best computer I've ever owned. Go to any meetup for
software developers and you see a lot of the people in the crowd who have gone
the same way. Being a geek (for me) doesn't mean I need to upgrade the ram, or
harddrive in my computer. Sorry if that means I get a better, thinner machine
at someone else's expense.

~~~
grecy
> One of the reasons I switched to Apple is I didn't want to spend time making
> computers, I wanted to spend time making things with my computer.

I can't up vote that comment enough.

Before VM Ware, I used to run a Windows 2k box, and a Mac OS X box. The
fundamental difference was when I used the PC, I was always busy fiddling with
hardware or software (the registry, etc.) Using the Mac, I simply got work
done.

------
forgottenpaswrd
I bought an Asus netbook some years ago. The battery(easy to put or remove)
died pretty soon, so I went to see the replacement new battery cost more that
what I paid for the netbook.

As it has a special shape is it very difficult to replace with a generic
battery, and it is on purpose.

I see all the manufacturers doing the same if they can. As a geek I could make
it to work but 90% of the people can't.

~~~
rmckayfleming
It's the same with power bricks. My sister had her netbook brick go and the
price for a new one was nearly a third the price of a new netbook.

~~~
cbr
Really? I bought a replacement brick for my original eeepc (7" screen and all)
and it was something like $15 shipped.

------
taude
I agree with the article, it makes valid points. However, you're paying for a
luxury item that's a powerful computer and something with an inherently short
lifespan. Take it for what it is. You won't be upgrading this machine, but
selling it and buying a better one in two or three years. If you're the type
of person buying this MBPro now, you're surely going to want the latest and
greatest sooner than later. Most people don't work on their modern day cars
with all their custom parts, so what's the big deal about a computer?

~~~
DennisP
It's going to be challenging to sell with a dead glued-in battery.

~~~
jaems33
You can get Apple to replace that battery.

~~~
ktf
...for $200.

~~~
btgeekboy
Add a decent markup (perhaps $100) for the added marketability. After all,
unlike other used laptops out there, this one now has a brand new battery
that's guaranteed to hold a charge for years to come.

------
jzeltman
I know this isn't the place to say this, but. Think about the context of who
they're [Apple] going after now.

Regular people who don't care whatsoever if they can upgrade their RAM or have
a bigger hard-drive.

They want something that just works. Furthermore, even though applications
eventually require more RAM or computing power, the majority of Apple products
purchased today will handle that for years to come, especially when most
people use them as facebook machines. They aren't running xCode alongside of
Photoshop along side of Chrome with 20 tabs open.

~~~
moystard
In Macbook Pro, there is Pro. These models have been designed for
hackers/designers in mind and those people usually want to have a good control
over their hardware (especially the former).

~~~
stan_rogers
If I recall correctly, the "Pro" simply meant (originally) that the machine
had the aluminum body and an Intel x86 processor (as opposed to the Gx series
aluminum MacBook, which never carried the "Pro" designation).

------
Steko
Reminds me of this debate that played out when the ipad was released:

<http://daringfireball.net/2010/01/various_ipad_thoughts>

[http://radar.oreilly.com/2010/01/the-ipad-is-the-iprius-
your...](http://radar.oreilly.com/2010/01/the-ipad-is-the-iprius-your-co.html)

As noted, this war was already fought and lost with automobiles. People
overwhelmingly prefer the advantages gained over the tradeoff in self-
serviceability.

------
jbellis
I don't buy that thin-and-light requires glued batteries, soldered ram, and
proprietary hdd connectors. As exhibits A, B and C I cite my Thinkpad 420s and
the machines I almost got instead, the Samsung series 9 and Sony Vaio Z.

~~~
akgerber
That machine is 2 pounds heavier, half again as thick, and has a shorter
battery life; in other words, it's more like the cheaper model 15" Pro, which
is also easily upgradeable, and also an inch thick and lighter at 5.5 lb.

~~~
jbellis
Please note that I cited the 420s, not 420. It's under 4 pounds, which is half
a pound lighter than the new mpb. It's slimmer than my 15" old-gen mpb,
although I believe the retina is slightly thinner still.

~~~
achompas
This is kinda moot, as Lenovo doesn't sell the 420s online anymore. Are there
any decent alternatives?

~~~
Ralith
What? Both the 420s and its successor, the 430s, are available directly from
Lenovo's site--it took me only seconds to find them:

<http://www.lenovo.com/products/us/laptop/thinkpad/t-series/>

------
jalfresi
I used to be on the PC component treadmill for years. I'm a developer by trade
and I got fed up with maintaining the hardware of my various computers,
preferring to concentrate on coding. Now when it comes to hardware I prefer to
buy the best I can afford, as fully specced as I can afford with the intention
that the hardware should last me for 5 years. Being upgradable all of a sudden
is not an issue for me anymore. It means I bought my 11" Air with the spec
maxed out (yes even the expensive RAM) because I had too: it had to last me 5
years and is not user upgradeable.

I've never been happier with my current hardware choices and I dont have to
fret over with processor has 0.2Ghz benefit or which ram has 100Ghz clock
speed over whatever. I get to concentrate on writing servers in Go all day :)

------
jcoder
You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means:

> unserviceable — adjective > not in working order or fulfilling its function
> adequately; unfit for use.

Is the submitter arguing that the closed nature of the machine prevents it
from fulfilling it's function, or did they just decide to change the original
title which used accurate wording ("Unfixable, Unhackable") on a whim?

~~~
jcoder
Excellent! Looks like a mod took pity on the English language and changed the
title to match the linked article.

------
kenrikm
Purchase New Apple Laptop -> Sell on Ebay after 12months having only lost
$200(average) in depreciation -> Purchase New model. I have followed this
cycle since 2004, It's kind of like leasing but on my own terms.

I personally feel that $200/year is a very small price to pay for a machine
that brings in the bacon. I spend a LOT MORE to keep my Adobe CS Master up to
date.

~~~
Scramblejams
I want to see your ads. I've never been able to sell a laptop (Apple or
otherwise) of recent vintage and take so small a hit.

~~~
kenrikm
Oh, forgot to add purchased with a student discount. So when you're saving
$200 and you take a $200 hit it's really $400 less then retail.

------
theorique
What's the life cycle on laptops?

I tend to upgrade every 18 months or so. I'm sure many other professionals and
power users upgrade even more frequently.

At this rate, as the article states, we've voted with our actions.

~~~
gnaffle
I think most people buying a $2000+ laptop keep it for more than 18 months. I
know I would.

~~~
pearle
I tend to aim for a minimum of 3 years.

~~~
sigkill
Yeah. My $1400 laptop, and 3 years officially up next month. Funny thing is,
because of the GPU (GTX260M) I'm pretty confident that I can easily pull
another year out of this. Unless they launch a new console.

It's strange that not just games, but even software requirements are
indirectly influenced by consoles.

------
Hoff
Increased integration has been the goal of most everybody involved in
designing and building computers, since before transistors were formed into
integrated circuits.

At the same time, a goal of less necessary maintenance, too.

Vacuum tubes (valves) are gone.

Connectors and moving parts are removed.

The field-replaceable units (FRUs) get larger and larger, and whole peripheral
units get swapped where that's possible.

It used to be that you swapped a head-disk assembly within a disk drive. That
you had periodic maintenance visits to clean or replace the air filters on
your servers and clean out the dust bunnies and dust rhinos. That you isolated
to the board and repaired it, or used a wire-wrap tool to fix a loose wire on
the backplane. That you unscrewed and swapped a switch. That you modified
configuration switches to re-address I/O cards.

This trend is all part of what was once known as solid-state electronics.
Where a designer looks to remove the "stuff" that fails and that takes up
space and time and manufacturing effort, that requires stocking more SKUs in
manufacturing, whether that's connectors or CRTs or disk drives or daughter-
cards or whatever. And you work to remove the humans from the repair and
maintenance process where you can, as that's a source of problems, and costs.

And yes, the hobbyist and enthusiast market has different goals and designs
than the mass market. If you're looking to tweak and incremental upgrades
(short of swapping FRUs), then you probably won't be buying a MacBook Pro
Retina.

------
marknutter
For years Apple has wanted to get closer and closer to the "appliance" model
for their products. They are targeting consumers who's gut instinct when it
comes to fixing their computers is to call a "geek". These consumers just want
the damn things to work and would rather not worry about upgrading it over
time. This is of course very unattractive to the hacker crowd, but they make
up a much smaller percentage of the computer using public now than they did 20
years ago.

~~~
Spooky23
No, they are targeting consumers who call their "bank".

The service life of modern computers is more than 3 years. So instead of
buying a 16GB memory upgrade for $29 in 2015 to rejuvenate your laptop, you're
looking at buying another $2,000 device. (Assuming that Apple doesn't decide
that you only need an iPad 8)

~~~
marknutter
The average person doesn't need 16GB of memory, and by the time they do, they
need a new computer anyways.

~~~
Evbn
The average person doesn't run Chrome and Gmail?

~~~
lparry
There is something seriously wrong with your computer if you feel that 16GB is
required to run Chrome and a webapp.

~~~
abalashov
I would have thought so too, but with where "web 2.0" is going nowadays...

------
ctdonath
Seems nobody is addressing the supply-chain issues. If Apple, say, makes the
MBP-R battery replaceable: they then have to design for user-replaceability
(both battery and case), provide replacement batteries as a separate SKU part,
provide covers as a replacement part, include new cases & connectors etc. in
the supply chain, devote manufacturing lines to building & packaging user-
handleable batteries, ship them as separate products, devote store space to
them, deal with return/replacement thereof, provide personnel support/service,
and so on ... all for something which 95% of all users won't use or won't care
if they can't.

Being so keen on minimalism for the sake of cost savings, Apple eliminates a
huge cost sink by just gluing long-lasting batteries into a sealed case. Re-
routing the savings, they can pour more money into the battery power &
longevity _and_ reduce the final product cost, delighting users ... and, of
course, increase profits.

~~~
RandallBrown
MBP batteries haven't been "user replaceable" in a few years. The difference
now is that the cells are glued in instead of screwed in, so even adventurous
people can't give it a try very easily.

------
Tloewald
If theydriver hey made the battery and drive readily upgradable by technicians
I think the article would be moot. They didn't so it isn't. Today's laptops
tend to sell with the maximum addressable ram in them (apple only charges $200
for the 16GB option).

I had a PowerBook 1400 - the most modular and upgradable apple laptop ever,
with the CPU on a daughtercard. When I upgraded the CPU the laptop was still
pretty useless because the ram was maxed out. Today, CPU progress is far
slower, you're almost certain to have maxed out RAM, so the only things that
really matter are storage and battery.

~~~
minimax
> apple only charges $200 for the 16GB option

Only $200? That's twice what it would cost to buy from Newegg.

~~~
MartinodF
And they're charging 200$ for an 8GB upgrade, not the whole 16GB!

~~~
Jtsummers
That's what they charge, but your cost to upgrade is either $200 via Apple or
$100 or so via newegg. The 8GB option is two 4GB dimms, and the 16GB option is
two 8GB dimms, it's not like buying one more 8 GB dimm and throwing it in.

~~~
Ralith
But the cost to _Apple_ is much less.

~~~
Jtsummers
Right. Apple has found that they can charge 50%-100% more than the aftermarket
upgrade cost (though in this case that wouldn't be an option) and people will
still pay for it. That's capitalism, don't like it? Buy something else. In
particular, it's not abusive of their market position, and it hardly takes
advantage of end users. Seriously, how many people upgrade their Windows PCs?
It's a minority, and a small one at that. The Mac world is no different.

Is it unfair for Apple to produce a product that cannot be upgraded by the end
user (RAM specifically) and charge so much to do the upgrade before it gets to
you? No, because you are not compelled to purchase it. This isn't like when
AT&T leased phones, or MS forced OEMs to include Windows on all their systems
(and had a >95% market share). Apple has no monopoly, they have no special
sway with corporations and gov't (in fact, their absence in those fields and
success despite it is somewhat remarkable and speaks well to their business
acumen). If the prices are unreasonable, and people stop buying the products,
the prices or the product will change.

Wasn't the Macbook Air similarly expensive when it was first released? Found
it, $1799 for the base model when first released
([http://www.apple.com/pr/library/2008/01/15Apple-
Introduces-M...](http://www.apple.com/pr/library/2008/01/15Apple-Introduces-
MacBook-Air-The-Worlds-Thinnest-Notebook.html)). People bought them, but the
price came down on future versions. The same thing will happen here, and if it
doesn't then it means the consumers don't mind.

------
dutchbrit
Good way for Apple to make extra cash. It's not something most consumers
consider when buying a laptop, and forces them to get Apple to fix problems or
buy a new Mac if repairs are too expensive. However, it's going to be extra
painful for the genius bar to fix laptops under warranty. Note to self, get
Apple Care next time I buy a Mac!!

It's like new cars, all that plastic under the hood to make it harder "force"
owners to go to the garage for simple part replacements..

------
toemetoch
Since when is a soldering iron high tech? Since when can't you solder SMD
chips due to the small pitch? They're not BGA, so you can solder them, even
with that pitch.

Dear HN "hackers". Removing and adding RAM from a fool-proof socket that is
found on most motherboards isn't hacking. Figuring out pincompatibility,
configuration and (de)soldering SMD chips: that's hacking.

~~~
makomk
Modern RAM chips have actually moved to BGA packages now, and if you look
closely at the iFixit teardown the ones on the new Macbook Pro Retina
definitely appear to be BGA. Good luck desoldering and replacing those by
hand.

------
Aykroyd
These sort of arguments bug me. I won't repeat the great criticisms that have
already been made. One of the types of things that he says that get me are
completely unsupportable statements like: " Apple products have historically
retained their value quite well, in part due to third-party repair manuals,
but also due to a number of very modular, very upgradeable designs."

Not only would he probably be unable to find any evidence for that as being a
reason but it doesn't pass the common sense test. PCs are very upgradeable as
well... I'd argue more so... so clearly that's not the reason that macs have
better resale value.

In the end, he sounds like an old mechanic complaining that fuel injection is
worse than carburetors because they're less tunable. The car industry has
already gone this direction making it harder and harder for amateurs to tinker
and fix their vehicles and yet cars today are safer, faster, and more reliable
than cars 20 years ago.

------
KeyBoardG
I think the bigger realization is that with cloud services pushing to become
commonplace that the personal computers we use are just appliances. Use them
until they break, discard.

Wasteful? Very.

Edit: Don't downvote because you hate it. I hate it too. Its just where things
are going as computers are becoming commodities.

------
mnl
I don't get this "less options is better" vibe. Applying this logic the best
thing is having just one option, isn't it? The fact that Apple reduce costs
and their customers are always happy doesn't make it a good engineering
solution IMHO.

~~~
spiralpolitik
In depends on the requirements. And if your requirements are to produce the
thinest high-end laptop while minimizing production and support costs then the
retina MacBook Pro is a good engineering solution.

------
brianfryer
"When we choose a short-lived laptop over a more robust model that’s a quarter
of an inch thicker, what does that say about our values?"

It says that we value our time, and have other things we wish to do with our
time than spend it upgrading a computer.

------
supar
I've been recently travelling with several friends for a long trip. It was
very fun to see how you cannot use any recent macbook or an ipad as a
"portable" computer anymore, as you cannot swap the battey with a fresh one.
Sitting on a power source while waiting for the thing to recharge is also very
fun when you know you could be able to just pre-charge another one.

Very sad in my opinion, as the swappable battery is essentially what makes an
"appliance" portable. Recent mp3/music players, phones and pads have basically
the same issue. You can't simply _continue_ to use the device while the second
battery is recharging.

------
51Cards
The upgrade-ability aspect is not what gets me, it's the service-ability.
Screens crack, Ram chips and SSDs fail. Under warranty, fine... but a LOT of
these machines are going to see use well beyond warranty as Macs hold a resale
value.

I would really think twice about buying a non-warrantied notebook (or new if I
planned to keep it for years) where a back-light fail or crack means a whole
new lid, and a bad RAM chip means a whole new logic board (and I'm sure not
for the cost of the bad RAM chip). Do I want to potentially be without my
notebook for days because its battery reached its known cycle limit?

~~~
jiggy2011
I suppose that is part of the reason though, they want you to buy a new one.

------
splamco
Apple people who justify buying expensive technology that can't be repaired
are like people who don't mind being spied on because they have nothing to
hide. Apple has traded engineering principles for another dollar.

------
gdi2290
I really don't like the way Tim Cook is handling Apple :/ he seems to care
more about profits without any real vision

Note: I'm not an apple fan-boy and this article seems a bit bias since his
business revolves fixing hardware

------
abalashov
This ultra-thin laptop craze makes me wonder about durability. For instance, I
usually type on an IBM Model M keyboard at my office desktop, or a similar
Unicomp at home. Try as I might, I am accustomed to a fairly violent, intense,
high-speed mode of typing and can't be as soft on laptop keyboards as their
fragile design would like. It makes me wonder if I would totally destroy one
of these Air devices in a month or so. It is one reason why I have tended to
favour Lenovo's somewhat blandly traditional, but very durable designs.

------
ctdonath
Apple realized users realized notebooks get replaced far more than they get
upgraded or [non-Apple] repaired. Why expend money/volume/weight/logistics for
something most consumers won't use?

------
meterplech
I think this is proves Apple is going to continue holding design and user
experience above all else even with Steve Jobs no longer at the helm. In
reality you operate under a very fixed amount of constraints, and easier
upgradeability would make the laptop bulkier in a way that is against Apple's
design principles. They made a tough design decision given engineering
constraints - just like they did when they removed the disc drive from the
Air. I bet consumers respond in turn.

~~~
cloverich
I agree in part.

But the cynical side of me see's this: The base device isn't wildly
overpriced; their "upgrades" are. I upgraded my macbook Pro to 8gb Ram for 50
bucks. The same from Apple was 200.

I think - at least in part - they see an opportunity to incentivize
"upgrading" at time of purchase and boosting their profits. Not an
unreasonable business move - just feels a bit scumbag.

~~~
jlcx
That's one of my least favorite things about Apple as well. They have always
been able to leverage the fact that they are the only maker of Macs, and now
they additionally have these more closed designs with RAM, storage, and
batteries that are difficult to impossible for users to replace.

That said, Apple is not the only offender, nor are they the worst; I checked
out the Lenovo online store, and they charge $160 extra to go from 4GB to 8GB
of RAM on the laptop I looked at. Apple, despite the soldered-in RAM on the
new MBP, now charges $200 to go from 8GB to 16GB.

~~~
eropple
Lenovo does gouge on that stuff, but it's weird: every Lenovo customer service
person I've ever talked to (I order my machines over the phone, it tends to
lead to some nice discounts) has straight-up said, "don't upgrade your RAM or
disk from us". Three different people. Almost wonder if it's policy...

------
stantona
To me the Macbook Pro is a misnoma, if it's designed for "pros" to do whatever
they want with them. The fact is when you buy a mac, you work with it's
constraints, both hardware and OS (try setting up the perfect macosx and linux
dual boot environment). If we expect high spec with compact design, we need to
confront the fact that our options for upgrading are limited. Apple are
merging high specs with slim compact design, so something has to give here.

------
metatronscube
Oh well, if you don't like it buy something else, but to be perfectly honest,
90% of folk out there will not be bothered with this at all. They are probably
buying the laptop for its portability, price point and performance and like
every aspect of life, there are trade offs. I would be quite happy (very happy
in fact) with buying the new Macbook knowing that it has no upgrade ability.

------
jdietrich
"Unrepairable Apple hardware bad" says Apple hardware repair company.

Bravo to iFixit for their PR efforts, but it's clear that the market simply
doesn't care.

~~~
yoklov
Did you read the article? It's clear they understand that.

------
jsz0
I've been using the MacBook Air since 2008 which shares many of the same
design choices. It hasn't been an issue at all. The resale value of Apple
computers has to be considered too. If I can resell my old machine for 50-60%
of it's original list price then upgrade-by-replacement is a good strategy. I
only paid about $300 to upgrade from the 2008 MBA to the late 2012 MBA.

------
rabidsnail
Is there really no way to get the batteries out without splattering them
everywhere? My current Macbook Pro (which is seven years old and still limping
along) has required two battery replacements. If I want my next laptop to last
longer than three years I'm going to have to figure out a way to replace the
batteries.

------
nsomething
I dislike propriety SDD connectors mainly. Full disk encryption and backup are
even more musts.

I enjoyed migrating foolishly unbacked up data from a laptop with a dead
[Insert failed component that's not the drive] by popping the 2.5" drive into
an external enclosure. Now I have to give my drive to somebody else? Or use
iCloud.

Tough sell to me

------
Limes102
I would have preferred it if Apple had designed it to be the same thickness,
given it a bigger battery, took out the CD drive and allowed us to replace SSD
and RAM... As great as they are, I won't be getting one.. Stuff breaks too
quickly for me.

------
donniezazen
Even when things are serviceable, then are too expensive to get fixed in
America. I didn't read full article but I read memory sticks were soldered and
memory sticks can easily get faulty. More restrictions from Apple is not
surprising.

------
ericb
In the era of miniaturization, this strikes me as an inevitability. If
computers shrink to dime-size some day, I don't see how you can make those
serviceable, so it is only a matter of when the tradeoff happens, not if.

------
robert_nsu
As long as other OEMs and other industry leaders don't follow Apple's lead on
this, I'm fine.

I won't need a retina display in the near future unless Visual Studio or vim
suddenly require it.

(and I really don't see that happpening -ever)

~~~
spiralpolitik
Given that Apple for the most part is the other PC manufacturers R+D arm I
would expect most of the other OEMs to follow this move over the next 2-3
years.

~~~
josteink
I'm sorry, but you'll need to back up that claim with some sources. It
absolutely does not stand on its own.

The only example I can think of would be the Macbook Air and how it has
inspired the rest of the industry to make more lightweight laptops.

Apart from that, I cannot see a single thing Apple has done which the industry
has followed on, mostly hardware-vise, for their PCs, Apple has done almost
zero innovation. There would be nothing to follow.

~~~
spiralpolitik
Among others:

\- Ditching the floppy disk drive on the original iMac G3.

\- Switching to all USB instead of a mix of serial and parallel ports.

\- The one piece case design of the late 2008 Macbook Pro as now mimicked by
half of HPs laptop range.

And that's just the easy ones.

~~~
josteink
Switching to all USB was a natural consequence of all new gadgets and
equipment coming with a USB connector, not a innovation by Apple.

And ditching the floppy was actually something you could not do on a Windows-
machine until quite recently. I'm not sure if you are aware of this or not,
but until Windows Vista, if you wanted to install Windows on a machine which
had IO controllers or other hardware it did not recognize required to complete
the install, you would need to provide Windows setup with drivers. And until
Windows Vista those drivers could only be provided by a floppy. For real. I
know it sounds like madness, but those were the breaks. PC vendors had to deal
with that.

So basically until Vista, having a floppy-drive was a defacto requirement for
a Windows-machine. And people didn't like Vista, so until Windows 7 you sort
of had to play by those rules as well.

As for laptops, I find it hard to give Apple credit for innovating when all
they did was the same as everyone else, make things smaller and lighter, only
taking it a bit further.

So... None of your points have any substance to them what so ever. But you
said those were the easy ones. In fact they were so easy that they completely
missed.

With that out of the way, please feed my interest. Give me the real juice, the
uneasy ones, if you like. Tell me how Apple in any way has done anything which
can be considered innovative in the desktop space, which "the rest of the
industry will copy"?

I'm thrilled with interest here.

~~~
spiralpolitik
USB prior to the iMac was moribund. Very few devices, half the motherboards
didn't ship with drivers for the ports. While everybody was talking about how
great USB was and how it would replace all the other ports, none of the PC
manufacturers took it seriously until Apple shipped the iMac.

Same could be said with Bluetooth. Lot's of talk about how great it was/would
be, but none of the PC manufacturers really did anything with it until Apple
started to ship it standard on their devices and make a fuss about it.

Ditto with WiFi. I believe that the original iBook was the first mainstream
computer designed and sold with integrated wireless networking. I don't recall
any PC manufacturers chomping at the bit to make it standard across the range
on their models.

"As for laptops, I find it hard to give Apple credit for innovating when all
they did was the same as everyone else, make things smaller and lighter, only
taking it a bit further.'

Taking it "a bit further" by innovating in manufacturing processes. Please
point me to PC laptops that were constructed from a single block of aluminium
prior to the late 2008 Macbook Pro.

Given that you seem to claim that there is so much rampant innovation in the
PC market, please point it out.

~~~
josteink
So you are saying that USB in general wasn't taking of until around the the
time of the iMac. That does not make it the iMac which drove this development.

Bluetooth, at least in my opinion, has severely limited use. Most my devices
has it, has had it (apart from desktops) and on all of them I turn it off. It
is a relic from ancient times.

Ditto with wifi? Seriously? No really? You are going to pick widely available
products and just claim that some iProduct popularized it?

You're obviously seeing the world through Apple-coloured glasses and are
unable to see general technological progress as just that.

And like I said in the original post: lets ignore laptops, because those are
not what we are discussing. Someone wanted to know what Apple would do with
_desktop system_ since evidently the entire PC industry will copy that in 2-3
years.

I'm still waiting for a single example from you which holds valid. None have
been provided so far. Only fanboy-cheering.

As for the PC business in general and all that innovation you claim that I say
is happening there... My point is that there isn't. It's a very standstill
market. There has been little to no innovation the last decade, except making
things cheaper, more efficient, smaller, lighter and prettier.

You know... The general trends for all things technology. It's just evolving.
And here you credit all that general evolving to one company without any proof
what so ever.

I don't buy it fanboy.

------
sbochins
This site seems kind of bizarre. The kind of people that buy apple products
usually don't know or care about upgrading them or fixing them themselves.

------
EternalFury
You don't like it, don't buy it.

This being said, we know how Apple manages a 50% profit margin: Lots of people
can't help themselves, THEY LOVE IT.

So...all discussions can end NOW. :)

------
gcheong
In light of this, are people going to be more likely to buy the extended
warranty?

------
Leon
Yes.

------
xtractinator
Nope, you should blame a market that buys computers but doesn't care about
computers. What you get is Apple.

------
dr42
I can't upgrade the RAM in my Canon 5D, the damn sensor is soldered on, and
the damn thing has such tiny screws I can't repair it when it goes wrong.
Useless, untenable design, if you ask me. They won't sell many of these...

