
Charter the Seasteader I - pelle
http://www.seasteading.org/lease-the-seasteader-i/
======
jcfrei

          seasteading communities — floating cities — which will allow the next generation of pioneers to peacefully test new ideas for government
    

there's a lot of marketing mumbo jumbo on the site, but I really support their
premise (and frankly I would pull off something similar if I had the funds).
from what I understand, they are trying to offer a research center in
international waters, free from any national restrictions.

I believe it's very unfortunate that we live in a time where basic democratic
processes and the deliberations of a bunch of (mostly) law students decide
which kind of research is permissible and which is not. this shouldn't be in
the hand of a bunch of politicians but rather a dedicated and separate ethic
commission. if governments don't adapt we'll (hopefully) see more such
projects.

~~~
derekp7
The thing is, I don't see how this gets around government restrictions. From
what I understand, a ship has to sail under the flag of some existing country,
otherwise it is a pirate ship and subject to coercion by any country's navy.
So the laws of whatever flag it is operating under will apply to that ship.

~~~
glenra
The main benefit is jurisdictional arbitrage - you get to pick whatever flag
imposes the least restrictions on whatever use is most important to you.
Unlike on land, on a ship if your assigned "country" becomes too oppressive
you are free to change it without changing where you live/work. Since flagging
countries get paid a small amount (and gain a small amount of status) by
virtue of their flagged vessels and have no physical territorial claim over
them, flagging countries have more incentive to be generally agreeable than do
territorial governments.

So simply "sailing under a flag" gets you quite a lot of the potential benefit
of seasteading. Sailing without a flag is something to think about in the far
distant future but not really worth worrying about for now.

There are oodles of business models that could make use of this today. Right
now, the only one that's really been tried is "day gambling cruise" - sail out
of a port where gambling is illegal, gamble once outside the relevant
imaginary lines, sail back into port. But there's lots of other business-space
to explore, like medical cruises.

Currently many Americans fly to Germany to get medical operations that aren't
yet approved here or fly to India to get medical care that is far less
expensive than here. Those who live near a port city might save money and time
accomplishing the same end - cheaper, more flexible care - by shuttling out to
an offshore floating hospital.

------
confluence
> _There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life:
> The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that
> often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading
> to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with
> the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs._

\-- John Rogers

Suppose we should add ships without laws to the list. The entire Sea Steading
concept makes no sense.

1: International waters do have laws and you are subject to them and the flag
you fly under.

2: If there were no laws you had to live under - why don't you think criminals
would already be using these to have drug or arms sales? Oh yeah - it's
because you are still subject to laws like everyone else.

3: Let's say you have a ship with no laws - what's to stop someone from
killing you and taking your stuff? Who is going the enforce those rights? I
government like entity? I thought we were libertarians here!

4: What happens in the case of an emergency? Do you rely on other governments
to bail you out? Will you help the people on your boat - I mean what is the
return on saving someone else's life? Who's responsible for the screw up? What
about medical treatment? Do you not treat a guy who can't pay but has a
festering open wound you could easily fix?

Libertarianism - just like this Steading initiative - is a fairy tale for
nerds that does not work in reality. But hey - a fella' can dream can't he?

Successful business people are like children, give them too much freedom, and
they'll pollute the heck out of you given half a chance.

Governments are like adults, wield too much power and you beat the innovation
out of the kids with authoritarian regimes.

You need both and you need good relationships between them - neither is better
or worse than the other - they're just people.

~~~
jasonwatkinspdx
The individuals involved with seasteading.org are quite familiar with these
issues (and are generally anti-objectivist personally though I don't believe
the organization has any stance on that). There's a book as well as
information on the website that will inform your mistaken criticisms.

Yet another trivial criticism voted up on hacker news from someone who is not
familiar with the material.

~~~
jasonwatkinspdx
Deleting posts because someone called you out is pathetic.

~~~
confluence
I deleted them because I realised that they didn't add to the conversation -
you would do well do do the same for the above.

------
zerostar07
Isn't there another way to find _some_ place on earth (preferably an island)
that will be outside international conventions? Wouldn't that be more viable
and cheaper than seasteading? I wonder if there have been attempts to do
something like that in collaboration with some government.

Regardless, this could be a profound experiment. If something good comes out
of it, people will demand changes in world governance. (We ran out of
governance ideas after the last french revolution)

It's important for the institute to be completely transparent about what is
being conducted there (legal or not), or else people are going to turn against
it.

~~~
ceejayoz
> Isn't there another way to find some place on earth (preferably an island)
> that will be outside international conventions? Wouldn't that be more viable
> and cheaper than seasteading? I wonder if there have been attempts to do
> something like that in collaboration with some government.

It has been tried.

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_Minerva>

Tonga forced them off the newly created island with a couple soldiers, and now
they and Fiji are disputing which one of them owns it.

------
patdennis
_we work to enable seasteading communities — floating cities — which will
allow the next generation of pioneers to peacefully test new ideas for
government._

It's an interesting idea. I don't see why a small oceangoing socialist or
libertarian or whatever community wouldn't be viable.

The key would be the fact that they're made up of a small self selecting
group. It's much easier for a group of like minded people to get along than
for a much larger and diverse nation to do so.

------
anateus
I've been a supporter of the institute for a while now, and one of the things
I really appreciate about their approach is incrementalism. Build in small
individually viable steps that let you evaluate both the underlying
assumptions and the optimal direction to take from there. This steady approach
makes me much more confident in them than previous similar ventures.

~~~
billswift
I participated in their forums for a few months several years ago, but I quit
bothering because they are not particularly incremental. As one of their
references, Jon Fisher's _The Last Frontiers on Earth_ , points out, one of
the things pioneers have always had to deal with is leaving behind some of the
comforts of home. They seem to think they are going to start out with all the
comforts of a city, or at least an "edge city" suburb; it's not going to
happen, they'll just keep on daydreaming.

~~~
anateus
I honestly don't know how representative the forums are, I've mostly helped
out a bit with the conferences and interact with current and former board
members in person fairly frequently. My sense is that the desire to have as
many comforts as possible is to attract a varied initial core. From the very
beginning the aims were to get the people who are super into, and then build-
up. But if you don't have sufficient social infrastructure you're going to end
up only with the hardcore who don't serve as a useful seed for a growing
system.

I think they're trying to skip the true frontiersmen, those folks are already
living aboard their boats. They're trying to enable the homesteaders that come
after them, and from whom settlements grow and expand.

------
stcredzero
There was once a proposal for an offshore incubator/co-working facility that
would help individuals get around visa difficulties.

EDIT: Whoever flagged the question of the comment below went a bit too far.
What in the world is wrong with someone asking, "How would that work,
exactly?" (Aside from the imagined tone of voice, which can be interpreted in
both a positive and negative light.)

There was an idea that people would work in international waters, but within
close reach of meetings ashore. (Which they could attend on tourist visas.)

~~~
glenra
That is indeed one of the ideas has been promoted by the Seasteading
Institute. The spinoff company now pushing that plan is called Blueseed; they
expect to have a ship in 2013-2014, but the ship they use will probably be
bigger and more residential-ish than this one. Here's their site:

<http://blueseed.co/>

------
davidw
I am not really aligned with their world view, but they definitely get big
credit for trying, and also trying in a way that's sort of an "MVP". I wish
them luck.

------
Sambdala
Even though this specific ship is not something I'm really interested in, I'm
excited to see what iteration 5 or 10 will look like.

Also, even if the institute/project is filled with a lot of people commonly
thought of as nutjobs, I wouldn't bet against Peter Thiel in many areas.

------
mkopinsky
I hate to be "that guy", but the floating social media buttons are horribly
distracting. Please get rid of them.

~~~
cabalamat
I just put an xterm over them.

------
Aloisius
You have to love libertarians and their utopian fantasies. It is often a
surprise that any of them have become (or remain) wealthy without government
support, regulations or laws. Oh wait.

Seriously though, someone must see the irony in libertarians starting an ocean
commune.

