
Apple tells lawmakers people will hurt themselves if they try to fix iPhones - minimaxir
https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/wjvdb4/apple-is-telling-lawmakers-people-will-hurt-themselves-if-they-try-to-fix-iphones
======
equalunique
_Following media coverage of Apple lobbying in those two states, the company
has been much quieter. Rather than lobbying on its own behalf, the company has
relied on CompTIA, an organization funded by tech companies like Apple,
Microsoft, and Samsung, to testify against the legislation at hearings and
meet with lawmakers._

 _The in-person meetings in California came a few weeks after CompTIA and 18
other trade organizations associated with big tech companies—including CTIA
and the Entertainment Software Association—sent letters in opposition of the
legislation to members of the Assembly’s Privacy and Consumer Protection
Committee. One copy of the letter, addressed to committee chairperson Ed Chau
and obtained by Motherboard, urges the chairperson “against moving forward
with this legislation._

I am shocked and ashamed that CompTIA would lobby against right to repair. To
think that they are viewed as a high and mighty standards organization in the
IT world - it's sickening to think that people worshiping them are essentially
boot-licking - a term that I try to avoid using, but in this instance,
unfortunately seems accurate.

~~~
barbecue_sauce
Does anybody really take CompTIA seriously anymore?

~~~
equalunique
CompTIA Security+ is basically a minimum requirement for any DOD-related IT
contract at Leidos Inc., and probably for most other large IT contractors
along the Washington DC-area "beltway" too. So yes-ish depending on whether or
not US government IT is a "serious" thing in your opinion. On the other hand,
you have nuclear missile systems using floppy disks as recent as 2017, so I
guess it's a bit of a toss-up.

~~~
oneplane
Usually, if a place seems to filter on CompTIA stuff they don't get anywhere
close to the places I filter for employed work or contract work. If you as a
company or government department can't figure out how to do a job right (hint:
it doesn't have anything to do with CompTIA) it's not a place I'd want to be.

~~~
nvr219
The type of people out there getting CompTIA certs are the people who are
trying to get ahead and can't really be super selective like you.

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imgabe
People can hurt themselves trying to fix their cars too, or any other object.
That's not a good reason to make your product unrepairable.

~~~
jVinc
It seems to me that an iPhone is a lot easier to repair than a car. Sure you
need to be careful about the gluing if you want to retain the aesthetics, but
replacing the motor in your car is also a pretty extensive operation requiring
extremely expensive tooling and if you aren't careful you'll end up hurting
the aesthetics just the same. Of cause you could then redo the paint job, but
at that point, aren't we really in the realm of cost/tools/effort where doing
a decent repair job on an iPhone is still much easier?

~~~
giggles_giggles
>replacing the motor in your car is also a pretty extensive operation
requiring extremely expensive tooling

Well SOMEONE's dad didn't have a small collection of junker vehicles in the
yard to pull parts from growing up. Shoot, I know multiple people (including
Dad) who rebuilt their Volkswagen Beetle engine in their unlucky girlfriend's
living room (yes that unlucky girlfriend is now my mother) with hand tools. If
you think working on cars requires expensive tooling, you just don't know
enough rednecks! lololol

~~~
sverige
I knew a biker who had a beautiful girlfriend he was thinking of marrying.
Every winter he tore his motorcycle apart in the living room and rebuilt it
with incremental improvements. His buddy said to him, Will she let you
overhaul your bike in the living room every winter? So he asked her. She said,
Hell no!

He ended the relationship right then and there.

------
xoa
In America at least I think the repair debates as a matter of law are off the
mark overall. What I think is at the actual root of the problem for most
people (and for the market), and what I'd really like to see legally, would be
adaptive mandated warranty periods that better match the common sense
expectation of how long a device should reasonably last. Say 1 year per $200
up to a max of 5 years for a napkin example, though it may be that a non-
linear curve with monthly resolution would work better. But the core market
issue really is the same old story about externalities and information
asymmetry: manufacturers know failure rates far better then consumers, are in
far more of a position to make money on the tradeoffs, and the total cost
isn't reflected in the sticker price. While for something super bargain
basement there is an understanding that durability may be less, I think most
people feel like a premium, ~$1k+ computer should be expected to last a good
4-6 years, and if not then the manufacturer should repair or replace it at no
additional charge, including a reasonable amount for shipping (COTUS at
least). _How_ exactly a manufacturer chooses to hit that should be up to them,
but that's what the standard result should be.

So in the case of Apple, if they still wanted to make expensive to repair
1st/certified-3rd party only devices they could, but they'd have to eat all
the expenses of that. No foisting it off onto an unlucky 0.1% or 1% or 2% or
7% or whatever of customers, it should be their job to get it right. If it
makes the retail price too expensive, then they'll naturally have to figure
out how to lower the failure rate or decrease the repair cost. Extended
warranties should never be a thing except for special extra commercial
services (onsite repairs, specific SLAs, advance replacement and so forth).

~~~
umanwizard
I've never actually owned a phone that stopped working for any reason other
than negligence on my part. Maybe I'm just particularly negligent, but I
always either lose them, drop them, or get them wet long before their natural
life expires.

Part of the reason is that the repair or replacement cost doesn't bother me
enough for it to be worth putting it in a case (which is a privilege of being
a well-paid software engineer; I understand not everyone can afford to have
the same priorities).

But at any rate, if I were more price-conscious, repairability would matter
much more than a longer warranty, since with repairability I could fix
problems that are my own fault just as well as ones due to normal lifespan
issues.

Do other people have different experience?

How long would an iPhone last without abuse?

~~~
vbezhenar
My first smartphone was iPhone 4S which I bought at 2012. Its WiFi started to
work very bad exactly after 1 year of use, so warranty was not applicable. I
found repair guy who replaced WiFi module for something like 10% of this phone
initial cost. I used it for around 5 years and recently switched to iPhone 8.
It still works now without any issues except degraded battery and software.

Well, charging cables of course were broken after one or two years, that's
problem for all Apple devices I've owned so far. Not a big problem, Chinese
cables are cheap and of better quality anyway.

------
nategri
Reminds me of the difference between the Apple II and the very Jobs-ian
Macintosh. One you could get into and upgrade without even a screwdriver. The
other took two special tools and would happily zap you to death if you touched
the wrong part, even unplugged.

~~~
organsnyder
Some of that had to be unavoidable due to the integrated display, though. CRTs
inherently deal with dangerous voltages.

I don't think of Jobs as having been against repairability directly; rather,
his singular pursuit of elegant designs resulted in a lot of other desirable
features—repairability being a big one—getting steamrolled.

~~~
everyone
Ignoring many of the more pragmatic requirements of a design in favour of
superficial aesthetics is not elegance. Elegant design is solving as many
requirements as possible with as few elements as possible. A claw hammer is
elegant, macs are not.

~~~
tomjakubowski
Weight + slimness (the primary drivers of unrepairable Mac designs) yield
pragmatic benefits in laptops and especially in phones. There are superficial
aesthetic qualities to slimness also, to be sure, but you cannot just brush
away the benefits in ease of use and portability.

~~~
everyone
Well the parent comment was referring to the apple macintosh, which is what I
was also referring to. Though that does seem to be Apples general design
policy 'make it look nice' to the exclusion of all else. Hey it sells though!
I've literally seen a regular non technical person, when asked what kind of
computer they want to buy, answer "I want a red one!"

------
cfitz
People will hurt themselves because of the difficulty in repairing the device,
not because everyone trying to repair an iPhone (or other Apple device) is
incompetent.

Of course you are more exposed to injury when you need to simultaneously use a
heat gun and 1-2 other tools just to get started fixing a cracked display on
an iDevice...

Edit: Speaking from experience here. Used to purchase broken iPhones in
college, fix them, and sell them for a profit. The latest generations are
miles away from the repairability of the first several generations.

------
Someone1234
If Apple provided the same jigs, repair tools, and documentation that the
Apple stores use wouldn't that reduce the likelihood of injury?

Nobody is suggesting Apple provide these for free, but right now Apple will
even block third parties from trying to provide equivalent jigs, tools, and
documentation.

~~~
eridius
End users wouldn’t be using them.

I’m all for Apple providing support for third-party repair shops. I’m against
Apple being forced to allow actual end-users to open up and “repair” their
phones, because the latter is not going to end well. I shouldn’t be allowed to
open up my own phone, but I should be able to take it to a third-party repair
shop with access to Apple tools and training materials.

~~~
Notorious_BLT
In what universe should it not be okay for you to open up your own phone? You
own it, you should be allowed to do whatever you want to it.

~~~
eridius
You’re allowed to open up your phone today. Nobody is saying the police should
knock down your door because you opened your phone. What’s at stake right now
is if you open your phone, you void your warranty and Apple will not provide
any more support for you. Which seems perfectly justified to me; iPhones are
sufficiently complicated that end users will absolutely damage or destroy
their phones by opening them up.

The distinction I’m drawing is between end users and third-party repair shops.
Users need to have a way to get support, and Apple Stores aren’t available
everywhere, or aren’t necessarily offering repairs as cheaply as a third-party
shop could. Third-party repair shops should be able to repair iPhones without
voiding warranty, as long as they use Apple-supplied parts and with access to
Apple-supplied training materials. But end users shouldn’t.

~~~
asdff
People replace screens all the time, it is not a difficult job.

~~~
eridius
Every single case of third-party screen replacement for iPhones I've
personally ever heard of has resulted in disaster down the road for the person
who got their screen replaced. And that was _before_ the edge-to-edge iPhone X
screen.

Apple uses highly specialized and expensive equipment for screen replacements
(at least for the iPhone X screen). Even if third-party shops had the ability
to buy the same equipment, I don't think they'd want to pay for it.

------
nsxwolf
I've only hurt my ego. I've tried to fix an iPhone and an iPad. Destroyed
both.

~~~
progval
I know someone who got his macbook on fire by trying to remove the battery. It
wouldn't have happened if it wasn't glued to the computer.

------
holy_city
This is an absurd argument, and I'm 50/50 on right to repair.

"This is dangerous to disassemble so we shouldn't have to provide
instructions, tools, and documentation on to how to safely disassemble it."

Or

"Normal people can't repair these things, so we shouldn't be required to help
normal people repair these things."

Those are exactly the arguments why Apple should provide documentation, parts,
and tools! So people _don 't_ get hurt!

~~~
SpicyLemonZest
Apple's arguing that some people will hurt themselves no matter what they put
in the documentation. If that's true, this legislation really would put them
between a rock and a hard place, because you bet I'm suing Apple if a battery
blows up while I'm trying my best to follow their official directions.

~~~
holy_city
That's why there's such a thing as limited liability. Guitar amps are a good
example - they're extremely dangerous if you're not careful. But manufacturers
have provided repair manuals for decades, and I highly doubt any of the people
who have hurt themselves because they forgot to discharge the rectifier caps
successfully sued the manufacturer because they were being stupid.

~~~
kakwa_
I really like how Fender is shipping the schematic with their amp (I hope they
still do it).

That being said, guitar amps, specially tube amps are indeed extremely
dangerous, not only the caps, but also the 300, 400 and sometimes 500 volts DC
around the tubes. You need to be extremely cautious when handling these,
specially if they are powered and opened (to check voltages in various points
of the circuit for example).

That being said, I've not seen a lot of guitarists actually opening and
servicing their amp themselves, even if the circuits tend to be quite simple
and easy to maintain/repair (few components, no SMD).

------
js2
I'm handy but not a trained technician. For example, I've replaced a starter
in a 2003 Honda Odyssey, repair appliances around my house, etc. I used an
iFixit kit to replace the battery and screen in an iPhone SE. It took me about
an hour following their guide. The hardest part was getting the old battery
unglued from the case. I was careful to follow their warnings about fully
discharging the old battery. Nothing burst into flames.

Was it potentially dangerous? I suppose... but so is using power tools.
Frankly I'm more worried about fire every time I charge one of my 18650
flashlight batteries.

This is BS from Apple, and further it's paternalistic.

~~~
tty2300
Thanks to the work by ifixit its possible for anyone to replace an iPhone
battery but without the hard work from a 3rd party there is no way you would
be able to replace a battery.

You have to know exactly which screws to remove, the direction to lift things,
the connectors to discounted and when to apply force because lifting the
battery requires a huge amount of heat and force.

~~~
snotrockets
But that’s exactly what the right to repair is all about: requiring apple to
sell the manuals and tools needed to safely fix your devices.

If anyone should be lobbying against it, it should be ifixit...

------
PaulHoule
If they are that dangerous then they shouldn't let you take an iPhone on a
plane.

~~~
saagarjha
The list of things that are allowed on planes is not necessarily grounded in
reason: [https://www.xkcd.com/651/](https://www.xkcd.com/651/)

------
Shivetya
Well then, if the battery is such a risk I can only recommend two outcomes.

packaging improve for the battery component so that it is not a risk or that
such items not allowed to be taken into areas where they may be a risk.

heck they could even be regulated as such they be replaceable without
disassembling the phone if Apple cannot render them safe otherwise.

~~~
protomyth
Yep, if the battery is such a danger then the government needs to step in and
mandate some safety packaging on mandate no glue may be used to secure a
battery and it must have a safe way to replace it. People are putting these
things up to their heads and if its a repair danger then it is obviously a
danger in other situations.

~~~
jbverschoor
This is the only correct response.

------
Animats
The next step is probably hermetically sealed phones. With the headphone port
gone and wireless charging, just seal the thing up at the factory, filled with
dry nitrogen.

~~~
m463
Why have any internal gasses at all?

~~~
sokoloff
Barometric sensor works better that way, for one.

------
bsmith
I don't see why anyone feels the need to compel Apple to make their phones
"repairable" in the first place. If you want that feature, I'm sure Samsung or
myriad other manufacturers would gladly sell you their handsets instead.

Maybe you could make some sort of anti-trust arguments about the probably-a-
little-too-tight relationships between wireless carriers and the device
manufacturers, but there are a lot of handset makers to choose from and the
market can choose who wins.

~~~
ajross
That logic only works if iPhones cannot be repaired. Obviously they can be.
The demands in the various Right to Repair bill drafts never talk about
changing the _design_ of the phone, only about requiring the information and
parts necessary for repair be available to the public.

~~~
intopieces
>only about requiring the information and parts necessary for repair be
available to the public.

The parts and information are already available to the public, as noted by the
article. The Right to Repair bill would compel companies to provide that
information and parts directly.

~~~
simcop2387
This isn't always true. Take a look at the whole thing with Linus Media
Group's iMac screen repair. The screens are not available publicly, only to
approved apple repair centers (which didn't even exist at the time of LMG's
fiasco). They didn't give details in the video where they finally repair the
thing, but strongly hint that they actually ended up getting the replacement
part essentially off the black market of apple parts.

Along with this Apple has a history of having customs destroy third party
refurbish parts when being brought into the US.

[1] final repair video
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EdwDvz47lNw](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EdwDvz47lNw)

[2] first video about it
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EdwDvz47lNw](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EdwDvz47lNw)

~~~
holy_city
>Along with this Apple has a history of having customs destroy third party
refurbish parts when being brought into the US.

Apple doesn't "have" customs do anything. Customs enforces the law. Those
parts are counterfeits, and importing them is illegal.

If they're not off-the-shelf, Apple has exclusive deals with their suppliers
and forbids them from selling those parts to anyone else. Whatever you're
buying as a "3rd party refurbish part" is either a fake, defective because it
failed QA, or excess bulk that Apple didn't purchase. It's usually one of the
former. Talk with some people in the device manufacturing biz about this -
I've heard stories about suppliers getting customer support calls about QA
issues when it turns out the distributor for the parts was selling both legit
and counterfeits without the supplier or manufacturer knowing!

And this is a tricky issue - if I manufacture something abroad you're damn
sure I want the feds to help prevent counterfeits from being imported. Doesn't
matter if it's the final product or part of the supply chain. And in as a
supplier, you're not going to manufacture something longer than you make money
off it, and the repair volumes don't justify anything.

That said, I think a middle ground here could be a limits on exclusive deals
between suppliers and manufacturers, and stricter "use it or lose it" policies
on IP held by suppliers. So if Apple isn't buying batteries from FooBar corp
anymore, they should be able to sell the batteries the previously did to
repair shops stateside. Nothing nefarious there.

~~~
genmud
Not sure if you know this or not, but I assume you aren't willingly
misrepresenting the situation.

People will ship _GENUINE /ORIGINAL_ apple parts, with lets say a cracked
piece of glass, but otherwise good screen assembly, back to an OEM to have
them replace the glass. When the _REPAIRED_ part is returned to the company
who sent them to an OEM, customs will destroy them as counterfeit, even though
they aren't counterfeit parts, just repaired.

I'm oversimplifying, but if repairing something makes it a counterfeit, then
the same logic could be applied to a dell computer that had its HD replaced
while overseas and should be destroyed, using that logic.

------
mmastrac
Injured myself a few times trying to separate some of the new devices that are
glued together (looking at you, Google Pixel). My Amazon Kindle's screen died
trying to get the plastic bezel off it too. :(

Right to repair + repairability legislation is the double-punch we need. Apple
is probably concerned that the latter will be the next step after we get the
right to repair things, but we really need it.

~~~
js2
Did you follow a guide? I didn't have any trouble with an iPhone SE, but I had
an excellent ifixit guide and their toolset.

~~~
mmastrac
For both I did. The Google Pixel screen cracked because the safe space for
prying it apart is so tiny. Kindle guides aren't as good as phone guides and
didn't explain the risk of pulling apart the display layers when wedging apart
the bezel. :(

------
intopieces
>”The issue is that many of these companies operate in a grey area because
they are forced to purchase replacement parts from third parties in Shenzhen,
China”

What is the grey area, here?

~~~
detaro
Buying parts that "got lost" from the official supply chain at some point, are
knock-offs of unknown quality or legality (where patents etc apply), ...

Lots of parts in such devices that aren't standard components that you can
just buy from the maker or an intended distributor. Recycled parts might be
legally clean, but how do you know that's what the parts you're buying are?

------
smsm42
I am not a handy man at the least. Pretty much anything beyond hammering a
nail into a wall is beyond my skills. I've just repaired my Motorola phone
using a kit from iFixIt and an online video, and it took me 15 mins. Yes, the
phone still works. That's why I am never buying an iPhone (one of many
reasons, to be sure).

------
r00fus
Apple really should double down on the concept iPhone-as-a-service bundled
with AppleCare.

~~~
rblatz
My wife and I signed up for their iPhone as a service plan. It’s really the
best way if you want to do a new iPhone every year. But if they start dropping
crappy iPhones I may change my mind.

------
segmondy
Apple cares for the consumers so long as it's in alignment with profit. Never
solely for the happiness of the consumer, but for profit.

------
msla
> Apple tells lawmakers people will hurt themselves if they try to fix iPhones

"Are you threatening me?" \-- The Great Cornholio

Seriously: That sounds like a... well, like a threat. Like they're willing to
employ active measures to enforce Do Not Repair, and then say "I told you so!"
when one of their designs just happens to draw blood if you attempt to open
the case without specific foreknowledge and specialized tools.

~~~
Pmop
That would be a sad but funny epilogue to this history: trap laden phones,
designed to keep their owners away from any diy repair dreams.

------
exabrial
I don't imagine this will sit well. The government wants a monopoly on running
people's lives.

------
snarfy
Hey HN mods, why was this buried? Posted 3 hours ago and now it's gone from
the front page.

------
rrggrr
Anyone interested in this should view Louis Rossmans many YouTube videos on
the topic.

------
simonsays2
Apple is doomed. Huawei will replace them.

------
return1
... or any phones

