
Chicago's About to Get a Lot Less Orange - tptacek
http://www.chicagomag.com/city-life/April-2017/Its-Really-Hard-to-Figure-Out-What-Color-a-Citys-Streetlights-Should-Be
======
60654
I've been watching some of the neighborhoods undergo early adoption of LED
street lamps. It's been interesting.

The new lamps are definitely much bluer than the current sodium lights, which
gives the street a different, unfamiliar feel. The article suggests the city
ultimately adopted 3000K lamps, but it definitely feels like the pilot program
used 4000K ones, they looked _very_ cool.

Another interesting development with these so-called "smart lights" [1] is
that the city can potentially modulate brightness on a street-by-street basis,
and asking different neighborhoods to weigh in on where they want the lamps to
be brighter (or maybe, if they want them dimmer on side streets etc). This
sounds like a very good change - customizing street lights based on
neighborhood requirements is a very nice development!

[1]
[https://www.cityofchicago.org/city/en/depts/cdot/supp_info/c...](https://www.cityofchicago.org/city/en/depts/cdot/supp_info/chicago-
s-smart-lighting-project.html)

~~~
abcanthur
All color considerations aside, one thing I find quit discomforting (first
subconsciously, until I put my finger on it, and now even worse) is that led
lights are very very often a rectangular array of lighting elements. So
instead of a point (or at least a large diffuse, continuous "point" in various
bulb constructions) there are between 25-64 points of light in a 6"x6" area.
From a 20' light pole, looking at the shadow of your hand on the sidewalk, you
see (let's say) 36 different vague shadows, in a rectangular array, with a
disfigured hand shaped​, darkest shadow in the middle where the shadows all
overlap. Truly, it can be dizzying if you try to focus on the shape of the
shadow from a single object. Tree canopies become shifting fields, everything
gets a blocky 16bit feel to it. I'm only human, but I can imagine some animals
are well tuned to single point shadows and this effect might really throw them
off.

(Interesting aside, I first noticed this while leaving LACMA (LA County Museum
of Art) where the pure Instagram gold of Chris Burden's collection of old LA
street lamps tightly packed, produces the same effect)

~~~
sorenjan
Yes, those shadows[1] are weird and feels a bit like low res shadow maps in
games. Hopefully they start using diffusers in the future.

[1]
[https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CIUkuDmUcAAqiF7.jpg](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CIUkuDmUcAAqiF7.jpg)

------
supernumerary
Regarding chicago this:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_Cup](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_Cup)

Regarding a city that's already done this - Detroit went full LED this year:

[http://www.mlive.com/news/detroit/index.ssf/2017/01/led_ligh...](http://www.mlive.com/news/detroit/index.ssf/2017/01/led_lights_make_detroit_a_brig.html)

The difference on the ground is quite noticeable, partly because we're so used
to sodium yellow and as LEDs are in the 6000K range - i.e. daylight ... it's
'uncanny', things certainly seem more HD - here's a picture I recently took at
night:

[https://iainmait.land/img/photos/1280/street_crossing_2_2017...](https://iainmait.land/img/photos/1280/street_crossing_2_2017_iain_maitland.jpg)

~~~
klipt
You can get "warm" LEDs too. Got some for our bathroom after I realised the
"daylight" ones were waking me up too much at night.

~~~
ams6110
For bathroom lighting at night, red would be ideal. You can see but it won't
really wake you up.

~~~
_ph_
This is where smart lightbulbs - like the Hue - are great. The allow to tune
the color temperature and the brightness according to the situation. In my
bathroom at night, the light comes on only to 50% and at a much warmer tone.
For my living room, I have a pure dark red setting, whenever I plan to do some
stargazing.

~~~
err4nt
I have migraines and I use Hue to control temperature. I find the cooler the
light (blue, white) the easier it is on my headaches, where the warmer
(yellow, orange) light makes me feel like I'm squinting, or in a daze and not
fully awake. With Hue I can change just the area of the house I'm in to cool
white and my wife can have her yellow warm glow everywhere else.

------
f_allwein
Same debate is going on in Rome at the moment, where orange-y light also
contributes alot to the beauty of the city at night:
[https://www.nytimes.com/2017/03/27/world/europe/rome-
streetl...](https://www.nytimes.com/2017/03/27/world/europe/rome-streetlights-
led-lights.html?_r=0)

What I wonder is: ok, so LED ligts save a lot of energy, which is great. But
do they all have to be #FFFFFF white? Given that there's LEDs in all colours,
would it be much more expensive to build/ buy/ run e.g. orange LEDs?

~~~
ferongr
Modern white LEDs are actually a blue LED behind a yellow phosphor mask that
turns the light white. More power emmited in the blue side of the spectrum
results in better efficiency, and the difference is significant.

~~~
jacobolus
The “better efficiency” of privileging the blue light coming directly from the
diode is oversold.

At night, what happens is that directly visible blue lamps in your peripheral
vision cause a severe adaptation response from your eyes (a kind of “oh hey,
it’s daytime” misjudgement), which causes everything that isn’t directly lit
to recede into dark shadow as the rods are swamped. You end up using mostly
cone vision, where the blue part of the spectrum doesn’t really contribute to
brightness response anyway, defeating the original purpose.

Longer wavelengths don’t cause the same kind of adaptation, allowing the rod
cells in the eye to remain useful down to much lower levels of overall
environmental lighting.

Industry has made up bogus metrics/arguments about “mesopic efficiency” of
high-CCT street lamps and car headlamps which are IMO based more on marketing
needs than dispassionate scientific investigation.

I’m hoping that someday non-industry-funded color scientists will do some
proper research on the glare and adaptation effects of different outdoor
lighting sources.

~~~
jacquesm
Wow.

You may have solved an issue with a new tunnel here in the Netherlands. The
contractors and operators are puzzled why the accident rate of the new tunnel
is so much higher than the old one, what with all the efficient and 'bright as
day' white light. But if you're right and that adaptation happens then likely
going into the tunnel your nightvision gets 'switched off' long before you
still need at (at the tunnel entrance) because you're staring into the well
lit tunnel, and at the end of the tunnel your eyes are likely still overloaded
and are re-adapting to darkness.

The monchromatic lights they were using before probably did not cause any such
adaptation and therefore did not mess up the nightvision of the drivers to the
same extent.

They have tried to remedy the problem by dimming the lights overall and
gradually upping the intensity as you get further into the tunnel but it is
still a problem.

(sorry, only have a Dutch source for this:
[https://www.bnr.nl/nieuws/mobiliteit/10100389/rijkswaterstaa...](https://www.bnr.nl/nieuws/mobiliteit/10100389/rijkswaterstaat-
neemt-maatregelen-tweede-coentunnel))

So do I understand you right that would mean that during the night they should
use monochromatic lights and during the day white?

Edit: I've sent an email to 'rijkswaterstaat', the federal infrastructure
department of the government here with a link to this thread. Let's see if
they reply.

~~~
jsmthrowaway
When Caltrans rerouted the Bay Bridge here in SF, they also took the
opportunity to clean the central tunnel through Yerba Buena and replace its
lights with similar "bright as day" lighting. At night, I notice I
unintentionally squint as I enter the now blindingly-white westbound tunnel,
and my eyes feel "disoriented" (for lack of a better word) when I come out.

I thought I'd get used to it by now, but I haven't. Maybe similar.

~~~
dnr
I've taken to putting on sunglasses when I drive through that tunnel. Yes,
even at 11pm, which is when I usually find myself going through it. I think I
might be more sensitive to light color and brightness than most people.

------
jedberg
As all these cities convert to LED, not a single one is remembering one of the
big advantages of sodium lights on the environment -- it's better for the
animals. A lot of animals navigate by moonlight. When it looks like there is a
moon every 50 ft, that really screws them up.

Not to mention how bad it is for humans. I installed a bunch of 1850K lights
in my house as well as f.lux on my computer and night watch on my phone. After
11pm, I try to avoid any light above 1850K at all costs.

And it has worked. I sleep a lot better since I went "all 1850". But when I
have to drive late at night, it screws that all up.

~~~
thought_alarm
Many neighbourhoods did not convert to sodium lights until the 70s and 80s.

For the better part of the 20th century we used mercury-vapor street lights,
which bathed the streets in soft blue light. The complete lack of red
wavelengths in these lights would make a red car look black, and made humans
look like vampires.

The animals and the humans will be just fine.

~~~
adrianN
For the better part of the 20th century we put lead in gasoline. That's not a
particularly good argument for doing that again.

------
jacobolus
Current versions of LED streetlamps are absolutely awful. They have very high
blue glare which is not only momentarily distracting in peripheral vision and
disruptive of sleep cycles but also totally wrecks your night vision. It
doesn’t help that they are often turned up to several times brighter than
necessary. Same goes for LED car headlamps (especially on SUVs), which should
be regulated right off the road. After San Francisco installed some awful LED
lamps on my street, I’ve taken to wearing orange safety glasses when I walk my
dog, and if I had to drive with any regularity I would consider wearing orange
glasses to drive at night.

The excuse I’ve heard that “these are the same color as moonlight” is total
nonsense. We don’t have 10 moons hanging 20 feet off the ground on every city
block. Nighttime is not supposed to look like daytime. People are not supposed
to be reading novels in the street at night, or critically examining the
colors of paintings.

Moreover, much of the efficiency story is exaggerated. Recent types of high-
pressure sodium lamps are very efficient. The big advantage LEDs have is that
they (theoretically) don’t need to be replaced as often. We’ll see how it goes
in practice over the coming decades.

The real story of course is that lighting companies have made a big marketing
push, and from what I understand there is state/federal grant money available
for new LED lighting projects (which are sold as “environmentally friendly”,
etc.).

If cities want to use LED street lamps, they should be <3000K correlated color
temperature, with as little blue light as possible. They should include
diffusers, should be shielded to not shine in the eyes of pedestrians or
drivers who aren’t intentionally looking upwards, should be spaced closely
enough together that there isn’t a huge contrast between patches of dark and
light going down the street, and should be set to a reasonable brightness.
Human rod vision is incredibly adaptable to seeing in very dark situations.

~~~
kingmanaz
>If cities want to use LED street lamps, they should be <3000K correlated
color temperature, with as little blue light as possible.

Agreed that as "little blue as possible" is preferable, however, 1900K at high
lumens should be the target, IMHO. Man is adapted to see at night via
firelight and 1900K hits the mark.

Actually performed this experiment at home...

After having used clear bulbs for far too long, bought several of the
following for our living room:

[http://www.verbatimlighting.com/prod/led-lighting/candle-
led...](http://www.verbatimlighting.com/prod/led-lighting/candle-led/vxrgb-
true-candlelight-led-lamp/candle-led-sku-98423/)

The "feel" of the room is entirely different, particularly when unwinding
after work. "Cozy seat at the fireplace" best describes it. Our baby falls
asleep gazing at the bare bulbs.

Conversely, for the locals loitering to rap in our alley, bought a "clear"
150w mercury vapor fixture and bulb from e-Bay. Installed the light and even
the cockroaches no longer venture into that eerie glow. If the mercury vapor
alone doesn't solve the loitering issue, one can purposely damage the
fixture's transformer so it produces an intolerable buzz.

Perhaps the correct lighting depends on the situation.

~~~
throwanem
For those not overjoyed at the idea of spending $22 per bulb, G7 Power makes
[1] a low-color-temp bulb on an E12 base. I have several, in various accent
lamps and nightlights, and they produce a pleasantly orange glow that's much
warmer than the 2900K specification suggests.

[1]
[https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B00CRHG63Y/ref=pd_aw_lpo_60_b...](https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B00CRHG63Y/ref=pd_aw_lpo_60_bs_tr_img_1?ie=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=CJ3D0G94MG5H4Z410FB0)

------
mattbettinson
A photo I took of Chicago from an airplane from a while back:
[http://bettinson.tumblr.com/post/107622904892](http://bettinson.tumblr.com/post/107622904892)

------
pasbesoin
I remember when the sodium vapors _started_ deploying. Ugh... a fairly common
reaction, at the time.

So, this may be a "change." But it's a change away from a few decades of
orange.

One thing I wonder, is whether they will continue to deliberately "light
everything", or whether they will implement some tuning to restrict lightflow
to more relevant areas.

It isn't just street lighting. In places like Chicago, they've chosen in many
areas to make that light as much as possible a seamless and universal
presence. It doesn't just illuminate the streets and walkways. (Because crime,
is the primary rhetoric around this.)

P.S. One difference between the sodium vapor (and before them, the mercury
vapor) lights and the new LED lighting, is that the former hang down within a
diffuser. This makes it easy to have illumination up to the second story
windows. The LED lights I've seen have the LED's within or at the edge of the
overhead hood. I wonder whether such broad illumination is as readily achieved
with them. Also, the LED's are very bright pinpoints of light. Especially if
they are going to go for "illuminate everything," this could make looking down
the street kind of uncomfortable. I, for one, do my best not to look at those
bright spots -- they are painfully bright, and I even worry about vision
damage.

~~~
autokad
a new building development put up LED lights and its awful. I cant open my
curtains without having piercing white like come in. its hard to explain, its
not like a spot light is on the window, but it hurts my eyes even when its
hitting the peripherals.

~~~
kingmanaz
I know what you mean. The words "sterile" or "clinical" come to mind. Chalk it
up to another unintelligent fad, much like the 20,000-lumen tiny blue LED
lights hardware manufacturers use indiscriminately as status indicators. Lord,
I've wasted so much duct tape covering those things...

~~~
pasbesoin
Lithographer's tape. Unfortunately not currently available.

[https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000QDRVNA/](https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000QDRVNA/)

Well, there's some Scotch brand, here:

[https://www.amazon.com/3M-Scotch-616-Lithographers-
Tape/dp/B...](https://www.amazon.com/3M-Scotch-616-Lithographers-
Tape/dp/B00B4FMT6I/)

------
city41
San Jose also uses orange sodium lights to help reduce light polution for the
Lick Observatory.

I agree with the article they have a "gloomy" effect. They are also pretty
much the exact same color as the yellow in traffic signals, which can make
driving at night a tad more annoying.

~~~
f_allwein
Light pollution is another important side aspect of this. What if, as light
becomes cheaper, people/ cities just use more of it? From other comments, it
sounds like this is already happening with LED.

~~~
bsder
LED will pretty much be better in terms of light pollution. With tubes or
filaments, you need to make expensive reflectors to prevent the light going in
directions you don't want.

LED lighting is _much_ easier to make directional. With LED lighting, the
difficulty is making it more isotropic.

~~~
colanderman
Sodium lights are trivial to block using optical filters. This is very common
in astronomy.

LEDs + phosphor, not so much, due to their wider spectrum. That less is
emitted directly skyward doesn't help if what's reflected off pavement can't
be filtered out. (Pavement is surprisingly reflective even though it's
"black".)

------
blurrywh
OT: When I was kid I remember that all cars in Paris had yellow front lights
which gave the city a special and unfamiliar look. Is this still the case?

Edit: Just googled myself, it's called Selective Yellow[1] and the reasons are
interesting and depending on the source different [1][2].

[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selective_yellow](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selective_yellow)

[2] [http://www.french-cars-in-america.com/why-did-france-have-
ye...](http://www.french-cars-in-america.com/why-did-france-have-yellow-
headlights)
[https://www.tripadvisor.com/ShowTopic-g187147-i14-k711979-Ye...](https://www.tripadvisor.com/ShowTopic-g187147-i14-k711979-Yellow_headlights_a_vanishing_French_oddity-
Paris_Ile_de_France.html)

~~~
fphilipe
No. Once in a while you still see old cars with yellow lights though.

------
Spooky23
A large institution I'm aware of that installed thousands of these lights in
indoor and outdoor public spaces during the recession. The hook, which was a
ROI written by the lighting companies and fed to the facility people indicated
that the lights would save some ridiculous amount of money, factoring in fewer
bulbs, fewer service calls, etc. The reality is that total cost is only
marginally better.

The problems are twofold -- the lights don't last as long as advertised,
particularly in enclosed fixtures. Warranty claims are difficult, and they
cost 7-12x the legacy bulb. In reality, they are spending more than they did
with legacy bulbs because they need to dispatch people when they (frequently)
break vs. do scheduled maintenance.

The other issue is that new bulb tech is harder to buy thanks to the carnival
marketplace. Legacy bulbs involved a janitor looking up a part number written
on the fixture. Exceptions were limited -- exhibit space needed a fancier
bulb. The new stuff has different color temps, intensities, etc that _nobody_
understands and many people disagree about.

I'm skeptical about cost savings in these programs. If there are cost savings,
my guess is that the savings is stemming from the "managed service" model that
the vendors push (i.e. Contractors making $20/hr, vs a $45/hr city worker) and
less from the electric bill.

------
forgotpwtomain
Relevant: Light-Induced Retinal Damage Using Different Light Sources,
Protocols and Rat Strains Reveals LED Phototoxicity [0]

[0]
[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/labs/articles/27751961/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/labs/articles/27751961/)

Was discussed on HN previously:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13330611](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13330611)

------
brianbreslin
I'm curious if anyone has tied the recent talk about different hues of light
and their effect on human health and citywide lighting? I'm referring to the
types of stuff Dave Asprey and bulletproof people talk about. Could you
influence the community as a whole through lighting choices?

~~~
droidist2
I bet the birthrate drops. People's complexions will look worse and their
confidence and willingness to socialize will decrease.

------
prmph
Also many newer cars have this uber-bright white headlamps, which I think are
blinding and actually more dangerous for road safety

~~~
rootusrootus
The larger problem with newer headlights isn't so much the HID or LED source,
but the fact that nearly all cars are coming with projectors. Even halogen
looks really bright to oncoming traffic when it's focused down to come out of
a small-diameter source. I would be interested to see what we could do with
lower power LEDs in an array -- same or more light actually hitting the road,
but potentially much less glare to oncoming drivers.

~~~
Zak
Legal limits on headlight intensity have been increased several times. In the
US, before 1978, it was 37,500 candela. Now, it's 150,000. This isn't just a
technology issue; it's not terribly difficult to get 150,000 candela from a
halogen incandescent bulb given a decent size reflector or a focusing lens.

------
unclebucknasty
Seems like household bulbs are either too yellow or too blue/white. Our
choices are now dim yellow or harsh unnatural white. For me, the GE Reveals
and old "standard" bulbs were perfect.

It literally changes the colors we see in our environment. Always took
colors/lighting for granted until the war on incandescents.

~~~
jacobolus
Nope, “too yellow” is what you want for outdoor nighttime lighting. Anything
else wrecks your night vision and your sleep schedule.

~~~
unclebucknasty
Yeah, don't want the harsh white, but once upon a time there were bulbs that
created natural warm light that wasn't dim and didn't cause the environment to
yellow out.

------
caiob
Sao Paulo's former mayor Fernando Haddad's popularity took a plunge as soon as
he announced that he was replacing all conventional bulbs with LED. The
population thought that was a step backwards and instead elected the host of
the Brazilian version of "The Apprentice". Sound familiar?

------
interfixus
The sodium lamps never really caught on where I live, but we had the pleasure
of them along a few select stretches of motorway, though by now they are long
gone.

I liked them. Pleasant for night driving, easy on the eyes, and not blending
in with everything else.

I image I would like them even more today. Eyesight fine, but dammit, with age
you start loosing contrast after sunset. Driving the city at night, especially
in rainy weather, gets really tiring after a while. And the headlights on
newer cars seem to be in fierce competition of unpleasant blue harshness.

------
djrogers
Several years ago this was a big issue in Los Angeles for filmmakers - there
was a distinct look that people expected from a night scene in Hollywood,
sunset, or pretty much anything in LA. Filmmakers would hunt down the last few
neighborhoods to switch and film there before the streetlights turned blue.

Now to get the same effect, you've got to provide your own lighting.

------
hyperion2010
Finally. The hateful orange glow will be gone. I my 4 years living there that
sodium emission line was among my least favorite things.

~~~
hasenj
I never understood why westerners like orange light. I find it depressing. The
same goes for the lights at home. I make a point of always replacing the 2700k
bulbs with something whiter.

~~~
quickben
Nothing to do with"westerners".

Yellow is summer, warm Sun, early autumn, fire, warmth, life.

It's just a human/animal thing to like all that, feels right and safe, feels
home.

Now, winters, are cold and blue. What culture are you from that you consider
"westerners" liking too much orange?

~~~
kingmanaz
>What culture are you from that you consider "westerners" liking too much
orange?

Probably Asia. I believe the aversion to warm colors stems from skin tone, as
sallow predominates in that region of the world. In the "seasonal coloring"
used by many women (such as my wife) such a coloring would be termed "Winter",
and is best complemented by a blue-cast. In Northern Europe and its diaspora
populations the warm-cast-favoring "Spring" and "Autumn" predominates.

------
tptacek
I had no idea orangey street lights were a Chicago thing!

~~~
thefalcon
They're not a uniquely Chicago thing, for sure.

~~~
Pulcinella
Yeah lots of cities and towns use HPS lights.

------
jloughry
Are there any EEs on HN who can explain a characteristic failure mode of LED
lamps---as well as LED-lit commercial signs---that very bright, metronomic 2--
5 Hz flashing that they do? I've seen it happen to street lamps, desk lamps,
commercial signage, traffic signals...it's not the usual 50 or 60 Hz flicker,
but a distinct failure mode, regularly flashing a few times a second, like a
circuit breaker resetting, but faster.

It's distinctive to LEDs, must be something in the power supply. But why do so
many LED lamps do it?

------
_ph_
For street lights, it might be interesting not to have "white" LEDs but rather
a combination of single-line red, green and blue LEDs. Without the phosphor,
they should be more efficient, and it would help handling the light pollution
for astronomy, as one could use selective filters. It would also make it
trivial, to get the desired color temperature by balancing the three colors.

------
jrockway
They started switching over to LED lights in Brooklyn a year or two ago. At
first, it was unbelievable eerie, but I've gotten used to it. There was kind
of a connection to the yellow lighting and being out at night, and that's gone
now. It's just shitty daytime at night now.

------
jakeogh
Most of Tucson does not have street lights. On purpose. It's awesome; walking
around you get to keep your night vision.

[http://darksky.org/](http://darksky.org/)

------
mark-r
On a related subject, does anybody know where to get night lights for inside
your home that are not too blue?

~~~
upofadown
You can just get monochromatic yellow LED nightlights.

------
ourmandave
Sure would be nice if the new lights increase the accuracy of the drive-by'ers
so fewer innocents don't get caught in the cross fire.

Chicago Gun Violence in Infographic
[http://heyjackass.com/](http://heyjackass.com/)

------
chaz6
There is a simple solution, retrofit a plastic amber film.

------
andmarios
Switch to RGB LED and rename to Disco City. :)

------
gerdesj
Why is Chicago's lighting important? It's not exactly new - I live in a small
rural town in the south west of England (Yeovil, Somerset). We sprouted new
lighting spectra last year (or earlier).

Chicago - major city (you've heard of), Yeovil - small town (you haven't).

~~~
amha
It's not important per se––it's just that the orangeness of the night light is
very iconic for anyone who's lived in or spent any time in Chicago. I went to
college there, and late-night walks home in a completely ORANGE world are one
of my most vivid visual memories.

It gets even stronger on cloudy nights in the winter, when all that orange is
just bouncing back and forth between the (reflective) snow and clouds.

