
The Future of Meat Is Plant-Based Burgers - zbravo
http://www.outsideonline.com/outdoor-adventure/culinary/Replacing-Meat-Plant-Based-Meats-Vegetarian.html
======
cwbrandsma
Where I live, range cattle are everywhere. You go to the mountains and desert,
just everywhere. Actually, we could raise a lot more here. What we can't raise
easily is crops. There is too much rock in the ground, you can't plow without
dynamite. Plus there is little water (that desert part). Pretty much every
field with crops is irrigated -- constantly.

Yet, somehow, cows and sheep do just fine. Sometimes you have to bring in
water, but that is NOTHING compared to what it takes to grow crops here.

I will also add one other item to the mix...don't call it burger. I will eat a
vegetarian meal, it does not bother me at all. Just don't call it chicken or
beef. In fact, don't try to be those things, just make good food without meat
and I will eat it. But if you tell me it is beaf and it isn't, I WILL notice,
and I won't be happy.

~~~
puredemo
>But if you tell me it is beaf and it isn't, I WILL notice, and I won't be
happy.

Seconding that. Also, I'm allergic to legumes but not real beef. So you could
be putting me in danger by calling a legume patty a "burger" or "beaf".

~~~
somedudethere
Isn't "Beaf" supposed to be mash upbetween "Beef" and "Leaf" so you shouldn't
expect "Beaf" to be "beef"

But a burger can be anything. Chicken burger, hamburger, pork burger, etc. So
I wouldn't have a problem having a vegetarian burger. Since "burger" describes
the delivery mechanism and not the contents.

But I do have a problem with things like "Chikin", "Beaf" and the like. Not
because they are misleading, but because it is tacky. Just don't try to
imitate real meat or at the very least make up a better description of the
contents. "Legume burger" vs "Beaf burger". The deliberate misspellings of
real food just make it "mystery meat". I've been looking at "veggie patties"
on menus for years and still don't even know what the primary ingredient is.
And that makes it harder for people to "trust".

People seem to blindly eat these patties and what not but it just seems really
weird to me that you are eating unidentified goop of vegetables that they are
trying to pass off as meat. I guess you could spend time looking it up, but
eh.

We already have a problem where the majority of kids can't even connect that a
chicken nugget comes out of a chicken. Calling it a "Legume burger" will seem
kind of alien but in a few years it would help make the word "Legume"
mainstream and familiar and everyone would be better off. I want to _easily_
identify what is in my food if we switch off of meat.

~~~
puredemo
>Isn't "Beaf" supposed to be mash upbetween "Beef" and "Leaf" so you shouldn't
expect "Beaf" to be "beef"

You can tell if you're reading the name, but not verbally. If I was at dinner
party and someone asked me if I had tried the "Beaf," there's no way to know.
Same with "Chik'n" or whatever it's called.

Naming products that way seems fairly irresponsible.

~~~
somedudethere
I'm sure in the context of the dinner party you would know ("hey did you try
the beaf, hard to tell its vegetarian", or its a vegetarian dinner party, or
usually at dinner parties there is ample notification for allergens if its
catered or if it is home prepared, the host usually proudly tells everyone
what he made).

Or in the context of giving an order you would know. No one is trying to pull
a fast one on you. Granted non-english speakers would probably have a harder
time figuring it out. Its a problem but not as big of one as you make out.

Rarely do you go into something completely blind and oblivious except for the
punctuation of one word.

~~~
Zancarius
In my own personal experience with food sensitivities, it'll be the last thing
that crosses their minds. It's not necessarily that the hosts in this case are
intending to "pull a fast one" on a potentially allergic guest as much as they
simply don't think of it. _Most_ people don't have food allergies, and unless
you mention your own issues, it's not likely to come up in conversation
because it's the absolute _last_ thing on their minds. This is especially true
for rare and very uncommon allergies and sensitivities.

Now, granted, if you have such an allergy, it's important to make sure anyone
preparing food for you is made aware--but in the context of this hypothetical
dinner party, if someone is introducing a meat substitute, there's always the
possibility that they're going to remain silent in order to gauge their
guests' reactions. _That 's_ where the real danger is: Guest assumes meat is,
in fact, meat; host wishes to see guest's reaction to meat substitute. In such
circumstances, the guest isn't going to ask if it's made of a legume because
he or she has already made the assumption that it's _meat_.

Alas, this illustrates that food sensitivities require those of us who suffer
from them to remain vigilant.

------
discardorama
As a vegetarian, I'm looking forward to more products from Beyond Meat and
Impossible Foods.

One of the criticisms people have is: it doesn't taste like real meat. To
that, I'll say: tastes change. Sure, you (presumably of European descent) and
your ancestors have been eating meat for 1000 years; but look at the spread of
Indian/Chinese/Mexican places; your ancestors never had those foods! Heck,
"chicken tikka" was voted as the 'national dish' of Britain, when a 100 years
ago hardly anyone had heard of it!

More people would be vegetarian if restaurants had it as a decent option.
Hopefully, these new products will encourage restaurants to expand their
veggie menus.

~~~
scrollaway
I'm not sure what kind of strawman you are using as an argument here.

People complain it doesn't taste like meat because they like the taste of
meat, and your answer for those people is saying that since some people like
some things they never tasted before, _that_ specific food will grow on them?

How did you get from A to B?

(Edit: And obviously I have nothing against vegetarianism. I just don't like
your argument here...)

Edit 2: Really with downvotes now? This logic is acceptable to you?

~~~
WalterSear
Tastes are very malleable.

Among people who have gone without meat products for a while, who then taste
meat products, either accidentally or on purpose, it is common to be disgusted
by the taste, and find it in no way resembles the one they remember.

I've had the same phenomenon related to me by people who radically alter their
diet in other ways, such as body builders.

So, ultimately, clinging to meat 'because you prefer the taste' is more about
avoiding temporary discomfort, rather than permanent dissatisfaction. Though,
of course, it doesn't appear that way until after the fact.

~~~
scrollaway
I'm a huge Linux enthusiast.

Have you ever tried to put Linux on someone else's computer? Tell them that
it's just _so much better_ than Windows, and that they can _do everything they
currently do with it_ and that they _won 't even notice the difference!_?

Then you'd be a very dishonest person. Linux is not a drop-in replacement for
Windows.

It is far superior, there's no contest there. And in my life, with my skills,
I can use my linux systems to do all the things people do with windows, most
often more efficiently. But never would I market Linux as a drop-in
replacement because then, when I do drop it in, people would tell me they
don't like it _because it doesn 't feel like Windows_.

Are you seeing the analogy yet? Let me help you...

I installed Linux on my mom's laptop. I told her it would be very different
but that I'm sure she could adapt, and that I'd be able to help her if she
runs into trouble. She never had problems with it and only ever needed my help
to print things.

By contrast, had I told her it would "all be the same", she'd have been very
upset, right?

So why are people trying to get meat-lovers to eat "veggie meat" by telling
them it's a replacement for it? Here, just yesterday, in the "What to eat
after the apocalypse?" article:

> "You would never know the difference between say, a sausage patty, a veggie
> sausage patty, and an insect sausage patty. It’s all the same! It’s just the
> spices."

WTF? Yes, I can taste the difference. Something is wrong with _your_ senses if
you can't. That's not to say I _dislike_ the taste, but that you won't get
people to eat these things by telling them "close your eyes, pinch your nose,
and just imagine you're eating caviar".

I'm finding it very hard to explain my point further. It boggles my mind that
people try to sell this stuff by ... lying.

------
murbard2
The part about E.Coli in burger reminds me of a very unfortunate state of
affair. I like my burgers rare, they just taste much better this way. I eat
them that way because at my age (32) the risk isn't too great.

There is a way to make ground beef extremely safe for consumption, without
cooking it to oblivion (a.k.a FDA guidelines). That technique is irradiation.
Unfortunately, people are very squeamish about the idea of having their meat
irradiated, and mandatory labeling laws mean that it's very hard to find
irradiated meat.

As a result, people get into the habit of eating overcooked burgers, which
further reduces the potential demand for irradiated meat, etc. Shame :(

~~~
SoftwareMaven
Find a local farmer whose meat handling you trust to reduce the likelihood of
contamination.

Otherwise, get a steak, wipe it with an ammonia solution, rinse it, and grind
it up yourself. The E.Coli, if it exists, is going to be on the outside of the
steak; the ammonia wash will kill the vast majority of it, and you get the
benefit of fresher hamburger.

Alternatively, freeze your steak by dipping it in liquid nitrogen. A normal
freezer isn't sufficient to kill E.Coli, but a liquid nitrogen dip will do the
job. :)

~~~
jules
Amonia has a _very_ strong & bad smell though? Even if you wash off 99.9% it
will still smell bad.

------
jasonisalive
It's a shame to see the conversation here bypassing the real issue, which
isn't taste, technological wow-factor, production efficiency,
environmentalism, or entrepreneur chic. The real issue is animal welfare.

Remember, every time you eat meat, you are actually eating the body of a
former living creature, equipped with eyes, ears, a nose, a tongue, and a
complex nervous system capable of integrating its sensations, of feeling pain,
fear, and depression. Rememeber, you have no way of guaranteeing (and in fact
can actually be almost always certain) that this animal's life wasn't short,
miserable, and didn't culminate with an utterly barbaric episode of fear and
torture - and then rapid, mechanical dissembly into anonymous pieces, shipped
off to your local supermarket or burger shop, its brutal, dirty provenance
hidden by a facde of bright and happy advertising. Remember, every time you
eat eggs, eat dairy or buy leather, you are participating and endorsing the
same thing: industrial scale mistreatment and torture of animals.

Watch the video linked in the article ([https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZRS-
kzgoRq0](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZRS-kzgoRq0)) and remember, if you
live in the US, the USDA is a captured regulator, completely toothless to
prevent animal torture in slaughterhouses - in fact it simply assists in
declaring whatever practices the food industry wants to use as humane.
Remember, the majority of states are busy passing laws to make it illegal to
film undercover videos in CAFOs and abattoirs, so no one can see what is
actually going on (because if people did really see it and really understood
they would be disgusted to their core.)

If you live in any other country in the world, the situation is either much
worse, or a little, but not much, better.

If you believe that humans should live compassionately and avoid inflicting
unnecessary suffering on other feeling, emotional creatures, then go vegan.
Not vegetarian, vegan. Don't wait - do it today, not tomorrow. It's the only
way that a person can look themselves in the mirror and be truly proud of what
they see.

~~~
Perceptes
This is one of the best comments I've read on HN. While I strongly agree with
you, it's important to remember that even in what seem like brain-dead obvious
cases, morality won't always be enough of a motivator to change people. What
makes research and development like this important and exciting to me is that
I believe it's the only way the world will ever really change on this issue.
Convincing the entirety of the world that animal welfare is reason enough to
go vegan is simply not going to happen. In the end, not eating meat needs to
be 1) equal to or more satisfying than eating meat 2) equal or cheaper in cost
3) equal or more convenient.

~~~
jasonisalive
Thanks for the positive feedback! For your other points, it's useful to draw a
comparison with slavery here I think.

1) Our stable, successfully post-slavery world (which I would argue ours
largely is) isn't a world where everyone plays slavery-reenactment videogames
and has slave dolls while secretly wishing they could still own the real
thing. It's a world where people overwhelmingly concur that slavery was a
reprehensible practice, where people are happy that slavery is no longer
mainstream, and where the wish to hold slaves is a tawdry, extremely minority
desire held only in absolute secret.

Similarly, a stable, successful post-animal cruelty world isn't a world where
everyone eats mock meat and secretly wishes they could still eat the real
thing. It's a world where people overwhelmingly realise that eating meat was
actually always a disgusting, barbaric practice, that lead to countless
inhumanity and injustice, and where people are glad that humanity has outgrown
it.

2) The abolition of slavery was achieved because a vocal minority of people
who cared pushed for it - not because they took the easy, meek route and tried
to design slave-replacing mimics - "So servile you won't even notice the
difference! Just as beatable but he'll never try and run away!" Similarly, for
progress on meat to occur, people need to be supported, encouraged, and pushed
to realise when they are behaving badly. That includes pointing out that in
encouraging convincing substitutes for barbaric products, you implicitly
condone the normative value of consuming that product in the first place, and
you don't push people to feel disgust at the idea of even eating animal body
parts.

3) Fake meat burgers are to meat-eating what methadone is to heroin. An
uncomfortable, temporary fix, undoubtedly necessary, but not admirable or
desirable in the long or even mid-term.

People are capable of trying to achieve something because it is right, not
because it is easy or more convenient. Pushing people to realise that their
behaviour is wrong and needs to change is always going to be harder than
saying "hey, just eat this burger, it'll satisfy your need to eat cooked dead
bodies, but avoid all those nasty side-effects" \- but it's much, much more
effective and important. And it does work, even if slowly. I turned vegan
because I came across people speaking passionately for its necessity, and I
hope everyone who believes in it as much I do has the courage to push equally
as hard, even though it is always tempting to make concessions.

Edit: I'd also just like to say that living vegan is honestly not that hard.
It's actually very fulfilling because you know that even as you're doing the
right thing, you're also making it easier for others to do the right thing
too, and as more people turn vegan, it becomes easier and easier for everyone.
A nice positive feedback cycle.

------
gdubs
I grew up hearing that a chicken nugget was filled with a lot of stuff you
wouldn't expect it to be filled with. After seeing the 'pink slime' video, I
often wonder why fast food chains wouldn't just use plant-based alternatives.
Surely growing plants is cheaper than raising livestock. And if it's not, than
it's at an enormous moral cost in how we treat our livestock.

At minimum, it's _crazy_ to me that McDonald's does not have a veggie burger
on the menu. Why?

~~~
kmnc
I would guess because the veggie burger market is basically nothing and
McDonald's does not want the conversation to become "Is McDonald's going
healthy?" before they are 100% invested into those new marketing avenues. The
reality is the whole "fast food chains going healthy" hype has died down
almost completely and those succeeding in fast food now are the gourmet fast
food shops that focus on delivering quality food (but definitely not healthy).

IMO McDonalds have excelled when it comes to Coffee and marketing the McCafe
brand and I don't doubt they could do the same thing with "healthy food
choices" I just think the hype around healthy fast food has died for now and
McDonalds is not willing to push it until the public demands it again.

~~~
scrollaway
Veggie Burgers are an option at virtually every fast food (including
mcdonalds) here in europe -- or at least in France, the UK, Germany, Sweden
and Spain; I don't know about any other country.

~~~
vram22
Also common in India.

------
ars
I tried the product mentioned here "Beyond Meat". The texture was perfect. The
taste was terrible - worse even than vegetarian meat alternatives (that don't
have the right texture, but at least taste good).

I only tried it once.

I see they have some new products now, maybe I'll try those.

~~~
blakestein
I've had Beyond Meat chicken. The texture is close but not nearly as close as
the article makes it out to be. Some of the flavors are good up front, but
sometimes it tastes like something close to playdough.

------
patrickg_zill
No, the future of meat is... more meat.

Really, the Saul Alinsky-style, revolution talk and identity politics are
simply not needed when you are making an alternative to a product.

------
jemfinch
Reading this article made me think of Terry Bisson's "They're Made Out of
Meat", particularly apropos the conversation earlier today about the Fermi
Paradox.

[http://www.terrybisson.com/page6/page6.html](http://www.terrybisson.com/page6/page6.html)

------
Retric
Rather than focus on 100% plant based burgers I think we could go a long way
by replacing say 10% of the meat with plants and working your way up. The goal
being a small enough change that you don't notice a difference.

~~~
JoeAltmaier
You can change a nation's diet abruptly too. Young folks buy and eat whatever
is convenient and cheap. They don't care that its different; they know no
different.

~~~
tracker1
I was going to mention that Taco Bell already does this...

~~~
blakestein
It's been awhile but their alleged fillers probably make it healthier than it
would be otherwise.

[http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/01/25/taco-bell-beef-
laws...](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/01/25/taco-bell-beef-
lawsuit_n_813185.html)

~~~
JoeAltmaier
My Mom's meatloaf also has other ingredients than beef. It's called 'cooking'.

------
leovander
My girlfriend is vegetarian and she swears by Quorn. She had me convinced when
I tried their [Quorn Roast]([http://www.quorn.us/products/44/turky-
roast](http://www.quorn.us/products/44/turky-roast)). I wouldn't say its on
par with real meat texture, but hell of a lot better than other veggie
products.

~~~
blakestein
I've had a couple Chik'n products and the beef crumble from Quorn and so far
it's been the best substitute as far as flavor/texture combination. Making
spaghetti with meat sauce was actually a little hard to tell the difference. I
think the only turn off is that it barely seems to be made out of food.

~~~
jules
Quorn tastes pretty good, though in my opinion it's over flavored and it
doesn't taste like meat and doesn't have the texture of meat either. I'm sure
most people would be able to taste the difference in a spaghetti bolognese.
The thing is though, it doesn't have to be like meat, it just needs to taste
good and have good texture.

------
akurilin
What kind of impact would fully switching to this kind of meat would have on
hypertrophy?

~~~
WalterSear
There's evidence that a vegan diet increases testosterone, by providing more
of the precursors.

There's actual proof that it can make no difference either way in terms of
protein quality.

~~~
brerlapn
The statement "there's evidence that a vegan diet increases testosterone, by
providing more of the precursors" could use one, or better, two, supporting
citations: one, to the evidence that a vegan diet increases testosterone, and
two, to the evidence that consumption of precursors is sufficient to cause
increases of the desired substance (and particularly in the case of
testosterone). I'm aware of at least some dispute about the effectiveness of
increasing consumption of precursors.

I don't have any emotional attachment to eating meat, and have eaten raw vegan
and vegetarian diets before (and found most vegetarian dishes to be tastier
than meat-based ones). One of the reasons I don't go in for any special diets
anymore is that the health assertions in support of them often end up falling
short of supporting evidence.

------
pietro
Why not just skip burgers? There's no way this can be healthier or more
delicious than fresh vegetables.

~~~
anon4
As far as I know, people can't synthesise the needed amino-acids just from
plants, but can from this products. So it is more healthy.

~~~
Symmetry
Being vegan makes it a bit of a challenge to get enough of the right sort of
vitamins but it certainly is possible. And if you're willing to consume dairy
it's actually pretty easy. You can't quite survive on milk and potatoes alone
but it's close.

~~~
vram22
I'm not a nutritionist, so take this with a grain of salt (pun intended :) -
just adding my 2c about what I've read:

I've read that vegetarian food (with the right combination of veg. items) can
supply all the nutrients that humans need, except for vitamin B12. For B12 you
need dairy or meat products, IIRC.

About amino acids and a vegetarian diet: I had read long ago in a book about
nutrition, that diets like the staple Indian diet of cereals and pulses (and
vegetables too, of course) can supply all the needed amino acids, if the ratio
is around 3:1 for cereal:pulse (where pulse == legume (seeds), like dals /
beans / lentils / chickpeas / etc.). And that ratio is roughly what people use
when eating rice with dal, or rotis/chapatis with dal, for example. This works
because the cereals and pulses are both deficient in certain amino acids that
humans need, but different ones, so combining them works to give enough of all
of them, in the right proportions.

Coincidentally, just today I was reading up on Chinese cuisine, and one link
led to another and I looked up Legume in Google and then in Wikipedia:

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legume](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legume)

See under the section Nutrition Facts on that page. Interestingly, the article
also says that that theory of protein combining -
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protein_combining](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protein_combining)
\- is now out of favor, but still says that that ratio works, and gives
examples of people in India and other countries eating foods that give that
combo - e.g. "Mexican beans with corn tortillas, and the Middle Eastern Hummus
(Chickpea spread commonly served with Pita bread) and Mujaddara (A dish
consisting mainly of rice and lentils).[7]"

In this connection, the story of Alain Bombard, which I read as a kid, is
interesting too - he sailed across the Atlantic in a small boat, with no
provisions, catching fish and plankton to survive. I think I read that he
researched nutrition needs and decided to get plankton too, because meat /
fish do not contain Vitamin C.

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alain_Bombard](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alain_Bombard)

------
tracker1
I had the worst burger I've ever had about a month ago... It was a delivery
place via grubhub and was only up a couple of weeks... I'm fairly certain it
was at least part vegetable protein, and was horrible. "Garden Burgers" are
way better than what this was.

I don't know if it was genuine or a sad experiment... beef wasn't actually
mentioned anywhere so I don't know. The texture was weird and the taste was
way off.

\---

edit: Wow, voted down because I had a bad veggie burger experience? For the
record, here it is..

[https://www.grubhub.com/phoenix/chef-efes-
burgers/](https://www.grubhub.com/phoenix/chef-efes-burgers/)

~~~
ceejayoz
You probably got downvoted because "I once had a yucky burger" really isn't
all that relevant to the discussion.

~~~
tracker1
I'm pretty sure it was a TVP meatloaf/burger... that it was veggie and the
worst I'd ever had, thought it may be relevant... or at least a comment on
taste.

I know that they can be better, but sometimes people will attribute better
taste to something by its' nature, not that it actually tastes better.

~~~
rosser
Nope, still not relevant.

I'm a vegetarian, quite a fan of Beyond Meat's "chicken" strips, and very much
looking forward to trying a Beast Burger. I've had some shit veggie burgers,
too, but if Beyond Meat can do with "beef" anything like what they've done
with "chicken", this won't be among them.

~~~
intopieces
How do you prepare the Beyond Meat Chicken Strips? I've tried them a few times
and (as I mentioned above in another comment) the flavor seemed too strong,
like they were trying to cover something up. I've been veg for a while so I'm
always looking out for new alternatives, and this company intrigues me.

~~~
rosser
I usually stir-fry them, though granted often with things that tend to have
strong-ish flavors of their own (green onion, garlic, asparagus, miso paste,
and cayenne are regulars in my Beyond Meat stir-fry). I think they got the
flavor less right than they did the texture, but texture seems to be the
bigger source of complaint meat eaters have regarding meat substitutes (and
rightly so, IMO).

