
Linus Torvalds defends his right to shame Linux kernel developers - shawndumas
http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2013/07/linus-torvalds-defends-his-right-to-shame-linux-kernel-developers/
======
cromwellian
I see a lot of confirmation bias in these kinds of threads. Because Linux is a
success, it must be because of Linus's particular brand of being a jerk, for
the same reason that Apple is a success because Steve Jobs was a jerk. That
is, an effective leader must be a jerk.

But there are lots of other companies that are successful where people don't
act like jackasses. For example, Google culture is anti-jackass, Googley means
not being a dickhead. If you have a problem, explain what's wrong calmly and
coherently, it's more efficient. Simply telling someone that they, or their
code, is a piece of shit is not likely to be as efficient.

IBM is another, when I worked at T.J. Watson, people were very civil.

Civility is not about being "fake" or "politically correct", it's about being
able to communicate your position by reason instead of by emotion, by
shouting, by abuse, by reptilian brain.

Linus gets a lot of leeway because of his work on Linux, and we will forever
be thankful for that. But I don't believe good works earns you a pass from
criticism of behavior. The founders of the United States are forever thanked
for the Constitution, but that doesn't let them off for being slaveholders.

I expect there will be some reflexive downvoting on this for criticizing the
prophet, but honestly, Linus makes geeks look bad socially. Say what you will
about Richard Stallman, there are lots of things he says I disagree with, but
he says them with integrity and positivism and love, and not with angry
denouncements.

~~~
seivan
Could you enlighten me, what did Stallman write about Jobs again?

~~~
loser777
"As Chicago Mayor Harold Washington said of the corrupt former Mayor Daley,
'I'm not glad he's dead, but I'm glad he's gone.' Nobody deserves to have to
die – not Jobs, not Mr. Bill, not even people guilty of bigger evils than
theirs. But we all deserve the end of Jobs' malign influence on people's
computing."

Clearly, that was an _angry denouncement_... /sarcasm

~~~
seivan
No, it was passive aggressive bullshit, hidden in eloquent crap. The very
thing Linus tries to avoid.

~~~
cromwellian
Seemed to be pretty obvious truth to me. Steve Jobs has created an ecosystem
that is far more locked down than the 1984 he envisioned in the original Mac
Ad. He has ushered in an era of computing in which the general purpose device
is giving way to a device where you don't even control what content you can
put on it.

We used to think that DRM on desktop PCs was bad, but for mobile devices it's
10x worse.

Now, see how I just explained the issue with Steve Jobs, instead of saying "He
was a piece of shit who passed of Woz's work as his own, lied to him about
money, denied paternity of his daughter, verbally abused employees and kept
them in a state of fear, maintained an 'enemy list' of journalists, .....!"
That's inflammatory rhetoric, and not relevant. The only thing that is
relevant is the sea change in DRM'ed computing platforms have been popularized
and his role in them, which is what Stallman was alluding too -- the effects
of his leadership.

------
vowelless
> Please be sensitive to _my_ culture too.

> Google "management by perkele".

> Do you really want to oppress a minority? Because Finns are a minority
> compared to almost any other country. If you want to talk cultural
> sensitivity, I'll join you. But my culture includes cursing.

That made me chuckle. Based on my experience having worked with a few Fins;
they are quite efficient and straight to the point. There is also a Quora
answer [1] on why Nokia phones are so durable.

Israelis have a similar mentality. From [2]:

> Whenever there was a bombing, Israelis would run TO the blast to bandage
> people and help out. They risked their lives without a second thought to
> help each other with an 'of course' kind of attitude. Israelis don't even
> realize this is unique to them. Most just silently believe everyone shares
> the same attitude toward helping people in danger.

> When you're in that kind of society, fake politeness is actually offensive.

I've also experienced this mentality with Punjabi Sikhs.

[1] [http://qr.ae/INWWl](http://qr.ae/INWWl)

[2] [http://www.quora.com/Israeli-Culture/Why-are-Israeli-
people-...](http://www.quora.com/Israeli-Culture/Why-are-Israeli-people-so-
hard-to-work-with)

~~~
Ras_
I believe that this Israeli-Finnish mentality of informality and "to the
point" attitude has something to do with both still having military draft,
besides the usual being small, educated, remote and history of living under
threat. In both countries there is remarkably small difference in perceived
(and acted upon) status, say between prime minister and common man should they
engage in casual conversation.

------
jerf
The core problem here is that there are two different ideas about tolerance in
play here, which I think is poorly understood as people tend to fling around
the term without understanding that the word can describe almost diametrically
opposed things.

Linus is advocating for what you might call personal tolerance; as a human
being, you should be prepared for the fact that not everyone in the world is
like you, not everyone shares your standards or your culture, and that some
people may be abrasive by your standards in a way that is acceptable in their
culture or microculture. (And while it is talked about less, the alternative
can occur too, where you encounter a culture that is more deferential than you
are used too, and similar misunderstandings can easily occur.) It is for each
person to accept these differences and learn to deal with them.

The American left/liberalism has embraced a different definition of
"tolerance", what I might call social or societal tolerance, which is that
each individual is responsible for learning what is offensive to the person
you are dealing with, and treating them as the other individual expects. This
is what has given birth to the concept of "political correctness", and this is
the domain in which "You have offended me" takes on moral overtones; you have
abrogated your social responsibilities in that case.

I mention this without endorsing one or the other. (I'll freely admit to
thinking the former is generally more scalable and a better idea, but I could
easily write an argument in favor of the latter as well. As a personal matter
I tend towards a mix of both.) I just don't think you can really understand
the full context of this discussion without having this idea clearly in your
head.

~~~
jeltz
This is similar to the difference between Ask and Guess cultures.

[http://lesswrong.com/lw/375/ask_and_guess/](http://lesswrong.com/lw/375/ask_and_guess/)

------
oellegaard
The use of words such as violence and abuse is disturbing. We are talking
about a guy thats swearing - not a rapist. Sorry, but swearing isn't very
uncommon in Scandinavia.

I didn't sign an agreement to act according to some US code of conduct - I
assume Linus is feeling the same way. Although I certainly wouldn't do what he
does, I respect him standing up against the American CoC mafia.

I heard Steve Jobs was very rude to his employees, if they did a poor job as
well - I guess all of this happened inside the Apple HQ as well - its just
easier to be angry with someone who is not your boss (oh, and if everything
happens on a mailing list).

~~~
tptacek
Nobody called Torvalds a rapist. Engage with her argument or don't, but don't
caricature it.

~~~
jerf
However, "Linus Torvalds is advocating for physical intimidation and
violence." is something I just copied and pasted. I don't think it's _that_
out of line to observe that this is an attempt to win the argument by defining
Linus' behavior as intrinsically beyond the pale without having to engage it
directly. It's not like that's a particular uncommon rhetorical tactic....

------
dkarl
She says she will "roar back" and considers that a threat of retaliation that
might deter them, but she is talking to people who don't mind roaring at all.
She really is missing the point of cultural sensitivity -- cultures that are
louder and more confrontational aren't required to play by the rules of
cultures that work more quietly, just to cooperate with them. There isn't any
accusation here that Linus unfairly judges the work or contributions of people
who don't "roar." They just want him to stop yelling because their cultural
bias causes them to perceive him as a threatening and potentially violent
person.

~~~
tptacek
The premise of your argument is that it's reasonable for a project manager to
invoke "Finnish Culture" as a justification for calling people on their team
names and singling them out for expletive-laced approbation in public. I don't
know a lot of Finns, but do you honestly think a typical Finnish person would
be comfortable with having their culture summed up that way?

~~~
hamburglar
I thought the Finnish culture excuse was pretty weak, but I think he'd be
perfectly justified in saying "I don't plan to stop cursing at people who I
think deserve it. If that means nobody wants to work on my project, then so be
it."

Because it's pretty obvious that there are plenty of people with enough
enthusiasm for working on the kernel that they're willing to work with a
profane curmudgeon, or perhaps people who do it because they actually _enjoy_
that type of environment.

And trying to frame this in terms of Linus being an abuser or advocating
violence or preying on the weak is just extremely dumb and insulting to people
who are actually victims of real abuse. It's emails on a mailing list calling
your code shitty and/or calling you stupid for writing shitty code. For fuck's
sake, if you're victimized by that, maybe every open source project isn't for
you.

~~~
tptacek
She also didn't say she was "victimized" in any way.

~~~
hamburglar
She didn't claim that _she_ was vicitimized, but she definitely took it to
that level on others' behalf:

> Good lord. So anyone that is one of your "top maintainers" could be exposed
> to your verbal abuse just because they "should have known better"?

> You know what the definition of an abuser is? Someone that seeks out victims
> that they know will "just take it" and keep the abuse "between the two of
> them". They pick victims that won't fight back or report the abuse.

~~~
cromwellian
Maybe she should, some people are scared to speak up for themselves.

And look at the sexist flak she's getting
[https://plus.google.com/photos/116960357493251979546/albums/...](https://plus.google.com/photos/116960357493251979546/albums/5901285206596474753/5901288095984358098?pid=5901288095984358098&oid=116960357493251979546)

~~~
tptacek
I'd be hesitant to draw conclusions based on pseudonymous troll messages.

~~~
ceol
There's plenty of sexist garbage over on reddit, as well. It's definitely
showcasing a problem the programming community has.

------
Zikes
I dream of working for/with someone like Linus Torvalds. Seriously.

There is absolutely no pretense here, no guessing, no fakery. If you work with
Linus, you know exactly where you stand. He doesn't hold anything back,
including criticisms that are critical to your own growth as a developer.

And there can be no question - NONE - that what he does WORKS. Linux is on
BILLIONS of devices worldwide, affecting BILLIONS of peoples' lives in as
literal a sense as can be imagined. You have to be strict about that sort of
software, you have to be hard, you have to have a very sharp edge, and you
absolutely cannot afford to make mistakes.

You don't have to like it, and you don't have to agree with it, but you
certainly don't walk into Linus Torvalds' kitchen and tell him it's too hot.

~~~
tptacek
How many of those billions of installs were enabled by Torvalds telling Mauro
Carvalho Chehab to "SHUT THE FUCK UP" after Mauro tried to explain a previous
patch? Try to be as specific as you can, thanks.

~~~
johnbm
How many of the people whining about this problem have ever submitted a Linux
kernel patch or considered it and said they wouldn't because of him? Name
names, thanks.

~~~
thesnider
I will never submit a patch to the linux kernel, specifically, and only,
because I cannot support Linus's attitude towards mailing list discussions.

------
moomin
He's wrong, the behaviour isn't acceptable. He's right: he can run Linux
however he wants. It'd be a bit more honest to say "I can be a jerk because I
wrote Linux." than all of this moral relativist survival of the fittest macho
bullshit, though.

~~~
slantyyz
>> He's wrong, the behaviour isn't acceptable.

I agree that he's wrong, but clearly his behaviour _is_ accepted by his
colleagues, because they continue to work on _his_ kernel.

------
tptacek
Sarah Sharp is not messing around; here's her commit log:

[http://git.kernel.org/cgit/linux/kernel/git/torvalds/linux.g...](http://git.kernel.org/cgit/linux/kernel/git/torvalds/linux.git/log/?qt=author&q=Sarah+Sharp)

She's a USB developer and it looks like the primary maintainer of the Linux
xhci driver.

~~~
brokenparser
Yep, she wrote it. I know because it says so in TFA.

~~~
tptacek
Neat. I know it from looking at her commits.

------
twerquie
It's clear that Linus, having spent his career working from home in his
bathrobe, has absolutely no clue what professionalism means. It's less about
the neckties and watercooler politics he imagines and more about treating your
peers with basic respect and human dignity.

He appears to have the social skills of someone recently released from maximum
security prison. He's like a homeschooled kid who bites the other children at
birthday parties.

~~~
bjornsteffanson
As a Swede, it seems to me he's just acting Swedish.

~~~
sp332
Sorry to break it to you, but he was born in Helsinki. Edit: OK I guess this
is more complicated than I thought :)

~~~
bjornsteffanson
Geographically, sure. Culturally - not at all.

~~~
Ras_
Yes, I believe another Finnish Swede active in this scene is somewhat more
culturally Swedish - Monty Widenius, founder of MySQL/MariaDB.

On the other hand Linus' father is a Member of the European Parliament for
Swedish People's Party of Finland, and was until 2011 the party vice chairman.
But he (Nils) has been quite relaxed about things like mandatory Swedish
education, which most Finnish Swedes dearly cling on to.

------
dobbsbob
Why is everybody so concerned about Linus being who he is? Every month there's
yet another article about 'rude open source developers'. I thought we were
hackers and not conformists. I could care less what Linus says it's his
kernel, his project, his life, his personality. Linux is not a job, it has no
sensitivity training or rules of social conduct. If you don't like it don't
volunteer.

Nothing stopping you from forking the kernel, developing it yourself and
calling it Sensetivlix: The GNUspeak conformity project.

~~~
avens19
You're absolutely right that it's totally up to him and he can act the way he
likes, but I think the point of the article is that if you're claiming that
open-source is a "community" endeavour, then perhaps being a giant asshole
isn't the best means of accomplishing that end. He is discouraging potential
developers from wanting to work with him for exactly the reasons you
mentioned: it's not a job, there is no pay, he's not your boss. The last thing
I want when volunteering my free time is some guy belittling me. As has been
mentioned in this thread, there are ways of accomplishing the same task while
being a reasonable human being. His ego and entitlement are justifying his
behaviour and it's bullshit.

~~~
hamburglar
I'd say open source _on the whole_ is a "community" endeavor, but individual
open source projects are not necessarily. There are countless projects that
are a single author who accepts bugfixes here and there but in general it's a
one-man show.

The linux kernel is like that: it's Linus' project that he lets some people
help with. It's a dictatorship, largely ego-driven, and he has the last word
on any philosophical, design, architectural, or even political decision. For
better or for worse.

------
dyno12345
Am I the only one that thinks both sides are over the top?

Linus is overly abrasive and I can't say I would want to work with someone
like that, and at the same time, Sarah Sharp and Linus' critics are
exaggerating and being overly dramatic (e.g., Linus is "advocating violence")
and I wouldn't want to work with someone like that, either.

~~~
tome
I subscribe to your point of view.

------
gruseom
Having experienced abusive behavior in the past, I feel strongly about neither
engaging in nor tolerating it. But when I read Linus' rants, I don't get the
feeling of someone being abusive. They're vociferous and profane, but they
don't seem mean. Instead it feels like there's always a wry chuckle hidden in
there (yes, even in "Mauro you are full of shit"), a sort of "You see what I
have to put up with" winking to the side, and a kind of nimbleness in how he
can take up or drop that tone very quickly.

Emotionally violent people, in my experience, aren't like that. They get stuck
in anger, and the situation is usually about them personally (they've been
insulted, are not getting their due, no one recognizes how smart/gifted/good
they are, etc.) I don't read that in Linus. His ego doesn't seem so involved
in those rants, which is probably why, even when he's yelling, there's an
accompanying lightness.

I have no idea how accurate that impression is. One would have to know someone
personally to say.

~~~
foobarbazqux
My feeling is they're still abusive, but I also agree with your analysis.
They're so over the top that it's impossible for them to be completely
serious.

~~~
Tobu
> so over the top that it's impossible for them to be completely serious.

You are completely correct:
[https://www.kernel.org/doc/Documentation/ManagementStyle](https://www.kernel.org/doc/Documentation/ManagementStyle)
(ch. 2, but the whole thing is worth reading)

------
tomp
So many words for nothing... Why don't we all just learn to judge others by
their behaviour and not by their words? Sometimes, it looks that a well-spoken
murderer would be better-perceived than a cursing saint...

~~~
steveklabnik
Speaking words isn't a form of behavior?

~~~
tomp
It is, but people tend to take it too seriously.

Two examples:

1) Nigger. The word in itself is so politically incorrect, that it's
inappropriate to use it even in conversations about the word itself! (E.g. to
point out the "reverse"-racism, how blacks can use the word "nigger", but
whites can't.)

2) Almost any topic that people have a very strong opinion about. E.g.
feminism, chauvinism, and using rape threats against Adria Richards - for
example, I could argue that people are wrong of accusing those who threatened
her to be chauvinists, because if you want to threaten someone, it makes
perfect sense to threaten them in the worst possible way - death, rape,
hurting their children... so the problem aren't rape threats, but threats in
general. But most people only hear the part of the argument "rape threats
aren't the problem" and totally disregard the rest of the conversation or even
the fact that I don't necessarily believe what I'm saying, I'm just presenting
the rational argument!

In words of Aristotle:

> It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without
> accepting it.

Many people don't get this. Attacking a good person because they swear is
usually the symptom of this.

~~~
steveklabnik
You're considering words entirely outside of their social, political, and
historical context.

Context matters: if I point a gun at you, should you get upset? Why, I mean, I
haven't actually _done_ anything to you, it's just a threat! Sure in an
abstract sense a gun imposed no inherent harm. It's how you use it.

Also, this isn't very 'rational,' for example:

> so the problem aren't rape threats, but threats in general

If threats are a problem then rape threats are a problem.

------
grannyg00se
"Sharp wrote: Linus Torvalds is advocating for physical intimidation and
violence."

Please, show me where Linus is advocating for this. Sounds absurd.

~~~
didocmkcdkj
Seriously, she had to be a fucking woman. Keep in mind that she made it about
gender.

~~~
to3m
And good on you, kind sir - or, perhaps, fair ma'am - for not making it about
gender yourself.

------
if_by_whisky
Verbal abuse might be necessarily unprofessional, but nobody is asking Linus
to wear a tie. It would be nice if he would just not bully well-intentioned
contributers.

~~~
thezilch
It would be nice if seasoned veterans did not submit crap and regressions. It
would be nice if there was documentation coming out of our ears. It would be
nice if P always equals NP. It would not be nice if Linus were a saint.

~~~
jfb
One of those things is in his control.

~~~
jeltz
Yes, making sure that veterans do not submit crap by calling them out on it.

------
mrt0mat0
this is why you have to keep mainstream out of technology. We're going to
start acting like gossip girl. I've worked in all different fields, and IT has
been the most efficient field by far, mostly because of the lack of coddling.
I've done the nice thing, and all it does is create more work for me. Being
more direct, and yes, rude may not be your favorite way to communicate, but it
is direct, and at the end you have no doubts about what needs to be done, and
what people consider important. Plus, people are a bit sensitive

------
zalew
Why am I not surprised the majority of people complaining and _getting
offended_ in the name of third-party developers are American? It's not like we
don't have our dose of pc on the old continent, but you'd be surprised how
much less of a fuck is given about such issues around here.

~~~
Taranis
It's because we in the US have had actual intelligence beat out of us in our
schools so that garbage like this is important. I think Linus is right on the
money with this.

~~~
zalew
You will enjoy 'Finland phenomenon', a documentary about their education
system, if you haven't seen it yet.

------
shmerl
He can't excuse foul language with his inability to express what he wants to
convey. His lack of manners is really shocking.

~~~
slantyyz
>> His lack of manners is really shocking.

Yes, it is. But it's his kernel and people _choose_ to work on his kernel, and
not a fork, in spite of his well known behaviour.

He gets away with his antics because of his rock star status. On the other
hand, I find Linus' own behaviour much less bothersome than people who behave
like Linus who aren't even remotely at his stature.

------
dkrich
Linus Torvalds not withstanding, I've never understood the "I can't be
bothered with your idiotic questions because I'm so Goddamned smart" bullshit.
I remember in the nineties if you had a question about Oracle or Unix and ran
a search on most message boards all you'd find were snarky comments pissing on
people for not following the posting rules or not reading some obscure
documentation. It was completely counterproductive and one of the reasons I
began to lose interest in development after college.

I give a ton of credit to dhh and Joel Spolsky for bringing development to the
masses by speaking in terms people not completely socially inept would respond
to.

As an aside, most developers I've worked with who put on the dickhole computer
prodigy facade were just unhappy shitty programmers with zero communication
skills.

Obviously Linus is not who I'm referring to, but I think buffoonery displayed
in abusive emails is emblematic of that attitude and sets a terrible example
for developers who aren't Linus Torvalds. I can just picture a thousand mid
level managers running around yelling at their reports thinking they're the
next Steve Jobs.

------
ssw1n
I will take a 24/7 roaring colleague who roars about all of good and bad to
you without reservations than a colleague who will put on smiling face, and
back-stabs you when the time is right.

Sadly for most people, it is more about Corporate Culture and Interpersonal
Skill and Street Smart and blah blah blah than being really competent and
getting real things done.

------
spiderPig
This will sound rosy until something like this actually happens to you. It is
very emotionally taxing and traumatic.

And worse, once people like Linus start advocating it, all these fan boys (who
have in no way made a significant contribution like Linus) will start
following suite. Imagine, that guy who setup your repo at work or your QA,
come and tell you to diaf and jump off a bridge in front of everyone in the
office for making an off by one error.

I think people need to realize the insignificance of the things they're doing.
Yeah you think you optimized the hell out of your app, ok big guy, take a trip
to Africa, no one gives a shit.

------
adamnemecek
A developer does not understand sarcasm, more news at 11.

~~~
sp332
I think it's hyperbole she's missing. "You may need to learn how to shout at
people" is not literal, but it's not the opposite of what is meant. It's just
exaggerated.

~~~
claudius
The parts about Kroah-Hartman being able to ‘squish’ you were quite obviously
sarcasm/banter and not actually meant literally.

------
eggnet
I'd like to hear some advice from another leader of an open source project of
similar magnitude and diversity of contributors.

It occurs to me, there is no such other person. Maybe, the way Linus sets
standards and decides who to communicate and how, works for his situation.

If most people are put off by his philosophy and would rather contribute
through intermediaries, well, mission accomplished. Somehow he has to whittle
down the 10,000 people who would like to communicate with him constantly to
maybe, 20.

------
cromwellian
I find the "I'm Finnish" defense to be somewhat strange. Let's say someone
comes from a culture with rampant sexism and racism, and he manages a project
by throwing sexist and racist epithets at contributors, would we excuse it?
Then why do you get a pass just because you were raised to be a jerk? At some
point, you've got to break free of some of the bad personal habits you were
raised with.

~~~
jeltz
A cultural relativist view would disagree with you. What is superior about
this specific breed of American culture some think Linus should conform to? As
a Swede I do not see Linus as being particularly rude. Linus seems to be of
the view that people should try to cooperate despite cultural differences
instead of trying to remove them and all conform to a single culture (which
one should they pick?).

~~~
cromwellian
Why is being civil all of a sudden an American property?

------
everettForth
If you don't like working with Linus, the answer is simple: Fork his
repository and work without him. He encourages you to do this. He publicly
states that people give his fork of the Linux kernel far too much authority,
and he even designed a version control system to make it extremely easy for
anyone to fork his work.

However, contributing to Linus's git repository is not the same as working for
an "equal opportunity employer."

I think it's unfortunate that, being a dad, and with all that he's given to
the world, he doesn't show a little more kindness and empathy. I think this
would benefit everyone.

Maybe the linux community could just try being super extra nice to Linus, and
see if it wears off on him? Every time he says something mean, we try even
harder to respond with polite and kind language. I'd like to see that.

------
brunnsbe
I'm just wondering if Linux would have been different it it wouldn't have been
built on this "management by Perkele". I personally think there are a lot of
competent developers around the world that could have contributed to the
kernel but chose not to because of Linus style of communication Personally I
uust feel embarrased by his behaviour, it's not typical for working in an
international environment

------
Scryptonite
While I wouldn't express my vision for linux the exact way Linus does if I
were in his position, but I actually agree with Linus' argument. Sharp
shouldn't be trying to enforce her cultural bias on Linus; it is just the way
he is, and she should just put up with it. Linus, so far, has shown how to
move linux forward, albeit Sharp not being comfortable with his
colorful/abrasive use of the English language.

------
cromwellian
Look at some of the private emails sent to Sarah:
[https://plus.google.com/photos/116960357493251979546/albums/...](https://plus.google.com/photos/116960357493251979546/albums/5901285206596474753/5901288095984358098?pid=5901288095984358098&oid=116960357493251979546)

------
_sabe_
The best kind of friends are those that right out calls me idiot when they see
I'm doing something idiotic. It's liberating, because we both know that the
harsh tone is not due to my whole being being defined as a idiot, but that
specific thing I did was indeed stupid and he/she cared enough about me to
tell me straight out...

~~~
dntrkv
If your friend is acting like an idiot, you pull them aside and tell them so.
You don't yell "_SABE_, SHUT THE FUCK UP" in front of the whole world. You can
be a good friend without resorting to acting like the asshole that is Linus
Torvalds.

