
Self-driving car on Moscow streets after snowfall [video] - atrudeau
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bx08yRsR9ow
======
ocdtrekkie
If anyone was going to focus on making sure their self-driving car could drive
in snow, it'd be the Russians.

Mind you, self-driving when snow has coated all your landmarks is definitely
impressive, but the title made me think it'd be driving _in snow_. Which it
isn't. The roads are, what we'd call in Chicago, "clear". The car is not
driving in/on snow or ice in this scenario, which is something I do regularly
every winter.

~~~
walrus01
Canadian perspective: This is very clear. Much more challenging is something
like a multi-lane highway where the road markings have completely disappeared
under snow. I'll be impressed when it can drive from Hope into the BC interior
in winter in conditions that a human driver can handle with winter tires and
possibly studs, but no need for chains.

[https://www.google.com/search?client=ubuntu&channel=fs&q=coq...](https://www.google.com/search?client=ubuntu&channel=fs&q=coquihalla+highway&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8)

~~~
kosmet
I'd be impressed if I see a self-driving car making a left turn in a crowded
junction without a specific left-turn signal at LA. The only way to turn left
in such roads is to make an illegal turn after the signal just becomes red. I
wonder how the self-driving car would do in such a situation.

~~~
kbuck
In California (and most places I've lived), this is actually legal. To
complete the turn, you first enter the intersection while the light is green,
then wait for traffic to clear. If it only clears after the light turns red,
you're still in the right - because only when you fully entered the
intersection (on the green light) is considered. See here:
[https://patch.com/california/sanbruno/ask-a-cop-should-i-
pul...](https://patch.com/california/sanbruno/ask-a-cop-should-i-pull-halfway-
into-an-intersection-while-waiting-for-oncoming-traffic-to-pass_2c7b8d8a)

Of course, this only allows one car (or maybe two, if the intersection is
particularly large) per light cycle, which isn't much. People who enter the
intersection on the yellow or red light (tailing the person who was in the
intersection waiting to turn left) are turning illegally.

~~~
friendzis
In my country there is very specific provision along the lines "it is illegal
to enter intersection if an obstacle would force a stop in intersection and
block traffic" which means that in a "turn left or go straight" lane you enter
intersection and cannot turn left due to traffic and block traffic for cars
going straight making that technically illegal. Human drivers, of course, do
this all the time.

~~~
usrusr
Are you sure that moving, oncoming traffic is seen as an obstacle under that
definition?

The real trick against gridlock is to equate the switch to green not as "go",
but as "go, once the previous wave has cleared the intersection". The "don't
enter before there is room for your car on the far side" is only an
optimization on top of that.

~~~
friendzis
I am not a lawyer so I may not be 100% correct. As far as I remember my
driving classes and other resources (cannot quickly find exact provision),
anything that is not part of road infrastructure (there are intentional
obstacles to guide traffic) and causes vehicle to change speed/direction is an
obstacle, so moving traffic kind of is. I understand that this particular
provision is specifically there to prevent gridlocks and is never enforced in
this particular situation.

The way traffic works is somewhat dependent on region. I can go to another
city an hour away and already feel a bit alien traffic wise there. This is
relevant in discussion on autonomous vehicles: in any foreseeable future we
need them to coexist with human drivers and abide by unwritten "everyone
drives like that here" rules.

------
tw04
I'm sorry - this isn't a "heavy snowfall" in Moscow. It's just barely a
dusting. That isn't even an inch of accumulation. Being able to self-drive
when there is black pavement to be seen isn't impressive in the least. Show me
a self-driving car functioning in white-out conditions (which is what Moscow
faces on a regular basis, as does a large portion of the US) and I'll be
impressed.

This: [http://bgr.com/2018/02/06/moscow-snow-russia-winter-
storm/](http://bgr.com/2018/02/06/moscow-snow-russia-winter-storm/)

Is what it looked like ~two weeks ago. Show me your self-driving car in THAT.

~~~
taylored
In fact this scenario is easier than no snow, since road edges are so clearly
defined

~~~
keldaris
Then it should be easy to show a self-driving car working in those conditions.
Somehow, despite this argument coming up in virtually every discussion of this
kind, nobody's done it yet.

~~~
tw04
What are you talking about? Ford demonstrated this 2 years ago.

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vShi-
xx6ze8](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vShi-xx6ze8)

~~~
keldaris
Did they ever release any substantial information in that regard? The video
just shows a few cars slowly driving around empty streets with barely any
snow.

------
neutered_knot
If you look closely the car is driving in circles. They revisit the same roads
many times in just a few block radius.

~~~
kurthr
I also noticed that it was driving 25... I assumed that was 25 km/hr, which is
pretty darned slow (15mph) even on snowy city streets. However, it could be
that they're running the car in US mph instead?

~~~
alkonaut
I think it's 25km/h but those streets are pretty narrow and filled with
pedestrians. Normal speed limits on those streets is 30km/h so driving between
20 and 30 seems right.

~~~
szajbus
The video should be watched at 0.25 speed to get the realistic impression.

~~~
NietTim
But the speedo will always stay the same

------
lnanek2
I'd love for it to be true, but it's tough to believe that's real. There's one
point where a pedestrian is standing in the snow on the road just to the side
of where the car would pass:
[https://youtu.be/Bx08yRsR9ow?t=35s](https://youtu.be/Bx08yRsR9ow?t=35s)

Wouldn't any pedestrian detection decide the person in the road has priority
and stop and let them cross? It isn't capable of reading a person's intention
to stand there vs. cross or not.

The title claims it supports interactions with pedestrians, and the video does
seem to show it pausing in the middle of a turn once for a pedestrian in the
road, but that could be easily faked by having the driver still using manual
breaks.

~~~
stefan_
I thought 1:50 was a lot more concerning:

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bx08yRsR9ow&feature=youtu.be...](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bx08yRsR9ow&feature=youtu.be&t=110)

That pedestrian is _already in the street_ and they momentarily stutter then
pass the pedestrian with very little room.

That and the way the steering seems super sensitive to various snow remainders
on the side of the street. It's almost as if it's controlling for its position
relative to the snow instead of picking a mostly straight trajectory.

~~~
deadA1ias
In much of Europe, and I would assume Russia as well, that's a pretty typical
scenario. I suspect the car is set up to handle the situation much like a
native driver.

~~~
gandhium
> like a native driver.

Considering the amount of traffic-related deaths in Russia... They'd better
handle it like non-native driver.

------
ckdarby
If that is after a heavy snowfall they need to test in Canada.

~~~
avmich
Maybe it's also after cleaning streets right after heavy snowfall? :)

For snow-covered roads we'll have to wait for reports from, say, Chelyabinsk.
Or Tomsk, or Novosibirsk...

~~~
randomdata
I expect this point of contention is that the snowfall wasn't all that heavy.
In Canada we typically don't think of snowfall as being heavy until you're
pushing 30cms (12 inches) in a single snowfall event. Indictors suggest that
they'd be lucky if they received 5cms in this single event, and have no more
than 30cms from all of the snowfall events the city has received.

~~~
falcolas
Or the "heavy snowfall" was immediately followed by a 10° heatwave. Usually
that's the only way we get black city streets after a snowfall in the northern
US.

------
seeekr
So this video features a self-driving car developed by Yandex. Does someone
have insight into why so many big tech companies seem to all be in agreement
that developing self-driving cars is an area they need to be pursuing? Is it
mostly everyone looking at what Google is doing and replicating that? Or is it
the getting swept up by the Uber hype? Or is working on self-driving car
software just such a natural extension to what these tech companies have been
doing all along in their main areas of expertise anyway?

(I feel like this question must have been brought up a number of times
already, since these projects have been going on for a while by now.)

~~~
lokopodium
Yandex runs an Uber-like service in Russia, would make total sense to get
driverless cars.

~~~
nmbr213
They actually did a sort-of merger for post-Soviet territory

[https://yandex.ru/blog/company/130717](https://yandex.ru/blog/company/130717)

[https://www.uber.com/ru/blog/future-uber-
yandex/](https://www.uber.com/ru/blog/future-uber-yandex/)

------
vpribish
technically correct title (the best kind!) - but clickbaity because everyone
wants to see a serious test of self-driving on snow-covered, icy roads,
ideally with actually blinding, falling snow - at night. This is, if anything,
even easier than a non-snowy drive because of the high contrast between the
completely clear road and the snow-dusted sidewalks.

The dream that the developers, the media, and many of us share is to change
the world by making driving a thing people do not do. Matching a human driver
in the most treacherous conditions is a major, and unmet milestone. This is a
misleading post.

~~~
web007
Have you ever seen someone driving in snow anywhere south of Pennsylvania in
the US?

This tech, as-is, could probably save millions in damage on minor or one-car
accidents in snowy aftermath. Even if it snows once or twice a year, somehow
everyone forgets how to drive safely in the snow and Every.Single.Time there
is snow the world just stops.

Unrelated to this video, I was impressed with my Subaru EyeSight performance
in a whiteout rainstorm. I could tell what was going on - barely, with the
wipers at full tilt - and my auto-cruise worked without a hitch at > 50MPH for
several minutes straight. It's definitely hit-or-miss though, since sometimes
it gets confused on a bright overcast day at 25MPH.

~~~
Piskvorrr
Survivor bias - literally.

------
bmer
Anyone else find it strange how still the one hand in view is? It never
moves...

~~~
adventured
It moves at 17 seconds in, at 44 seconds in, 1 min 51 seconds in, etc. I'm
guessing the driver was intentionally holding his hand there with effort,
ready to grab control of the wheel if necessary.

------
golergka
I live in the neighborhood; these streets are all around Yandex headquarters.
It's one of the best districts in the whole city, streets rigorously cleaned,
very light traffic and surprisingly cultured drivers. Even after recent
record-breaking snowfalls, these streets were very clear short after.

Would love to see them trying to drive anywhere else in the city though.

------
gaurx003
Compared to here in Minnesota, those roads look very clean - no drifting snow,
no dry salt lines, no black ice.

------
BugsJustFindMe
This is heavy snowfall? It looks like only an inch or two.

------
Piskvorrr
Wonder what's that thing at 1:40 ;) "at turn, wipers suddenly full tilt for no
apparent reason, person gives input to the right paddle" \- yes, I know that
control normally sends CAN messages for wiper operation in all modern cars,
and that it wouldn't make sense to release a video with overt manipulation of
the system; I have been conditioned to look for side channels though, and this
is technically a human giving a driving-related input.

But seriously, what does the car need the wipers for? All the sensors are
outside anyway, no?

~~~
undersuit
The wipers are needed for when a human needs to take control and if a human
needs to suddenly take control they need to have the wipers already working
recently.

------
tyingq
The hardest human equivalent in New England in my youth, was a 4 way stop at
the peak of a steep hill. Would have loved to seen this scenario with the self
driving car.

------
M_Bakhtiari
I wonder how it handles those erratic Ladas flying at you from all directions.

~~~
nasredin
Wait, flying cars? Did I miss something? How long have I been asleep?

~~~
eric_h
see
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16418056](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16418056)

------
pvaldes
I hope that this is not the normal speed of the video. It looks a dangerous
situation for pedestrians to me, specially in urban roads and streets.

~~~
Tolika
There's a 4x indicator in the top right corner.

~~~
pvaldes
Few, for a moment I though that driving like at 100Km/h in a narrow slippy
street navigating random pedestrians was a cultural thing from Moscow.

The video deserves a second view, with a proper BSO :-)

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Bx20cflBBk](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Bx20cflBBk)

------
thriftwy
It's actually area around Yandex's main Moscow campus, Red Rose. I have walked
there countless times when we went out for dinner.

------
EADGBE
Would love to see how it performs before the plows reveal the pavement.

This isn’t as impressive as I was led to believe. Those roads are completely
exposed!

------
mizzao
Next up...self-driving car dashcam videos!

------
chemodax
Most of the trip speed is 25 km/h, while speed limit in Moscow is 60 km/h.

~~~
dmix
The speed limit on narrow side roads is 60km/hr? I find that hard to
believe...

~~~
rimliu
It's the default for urban areas, so unless the limit is specifically lowered
it's 60 km/h.

~~~
alkonaut
The actual speed "limit" on those streets is definitely no higher than 30km/h,
regardless of what the signs say. If I drove 60 there I hope I'd lose my
license for reckless driving.

------
timvisee
I like how the car alows down a lot when squeezing through tight gaps

------
Jyaif
Why do people think that driving on snow/ice is going to be a challenge?
Compared to recognizing the cars, lights, pedestrians, and their intention,
that's pretty straightforward.

~~~
alkonaut
Because it's harder to orientate when you can't see the street markings, see
the street signs, when your cameras are snowed over. If you tried parking a
new BMW after a snow storm and looked out the rear camera you know what I
mean. Basically they have to do all they normally do but just the equipment
they need to keep cameras and lidars without snow either costs an extra
fortune, OR the passengers will have to start their ride by carefully wiping
all sensors. If there is heavy snowfall, you'll probably have to clean them
during the trip too.

Roads that are usually 2 lanes become 1 lane when snow accumulates enough.
People improvise to get where they want anyway - the 2 lanes at the traffic
light which are normally one lane for turning and one for straight - is now
just 1 lane for both turns and straight because of accumulated snow. The AI
would need to observe other drivers (and pray they aren't all AI drivers)
because stored map info will not work.

As a driver you have to be able to guess whether something that looks like a
1ft ridge of snow is actually passable drift powder snow, or a frozen barrier
of ice that will damage the car or get you stuck if you drive through it.

~~~
cesarb
> but just the equipment they need to keep cameras and lidars without snow
> either costs an extra fortune

Sorry if I'm being ignorant (where I live, below 20°C is really cold weather,
and the lowest it gets is around 10°C, which I don't recall ever seeing), but
wouldn't heaters be enough?

~~~
Piskvorrr
Not under current paradigm "go to car, start it up, [wait 15 minutes for
sensors to unfreeze], go." Might be viable if the cars are 1.shared and 2.at
high % of utilization (in other words, the car is never frozen).

Of course, in mountainous winter, I've had wiper fluid freeze _when it got to
the windshield_ of a warmed up, running, moving car - had to stop and scrape
off what was essentially a rubbing alcohol solution: even heating wouldn't
help when local temperature goes to -40 (either scale ;)).

------
mitjak
I want to see AI trained to drive like people in Russia:
[https://i.imgur.com/wDhO25d.gif](https://i.imgur.com/wDhO25d.gif)

~~~
Defolter
No, please, we need AI, which will make road a bit less dangerous. We have
such an anecdote: when you cross the road in Russia, you have to look not only
left and right, but also up.

------
jijojv
WoW - This looks more real than than the Tesla FSD which many have been
scammed into buying which is years away.

~~~
gnode
Fully self driving cars are essentially here, except for needing an alert
driver to take over when they steer into oncoming traffic. When you have Tesla
drivers who wedge oranges into the steering wheel to trick the car into
believing someone is holding it, Tesla are going to want to make their system
robust before rolling it out.

------
dmvaldman
In Soviet Russia, car drives you.

