
Apple Music on Android asks user's card details to avoid Google's 30% cut - ffpip
https://reddit.com/r/apple/comments/hb0jl8/
======
kanobo
Apple and Google are similar to China and America. Apple has more restrictive
policies within a walled garden. Google gives more freedoms but its platform
is wild and open. It's easy for Apple to take advantage of Google's ecosystem
and open policies, but very difficult for Google to do the same to Apple. It's
similar to how US companies don't get a fair shake in China. And in both, the
citizens get taken advantage of and the little people have no power. Did any
of what I just said make any sense?

~~~
clomond
Fascinating analogy.

Given the fundamental differences between corporations and governments (and
the span of control they have over people’s lives) I do not believe this
analogy can be used for any useful inference.

It’s almost as if this example with app stores is an incredibly specific,
narrow example, and government control in this way is incredibly broad in
impact (I.e. life or death, end of the actual world etc).

Did any of that make any sense?

~~~
vmception
> Given the fundamental differences between corporations and governments

I disagree with that line. I feel like people are desperate for there to be a
difference based on some 9th grade civics class, or because an animated
anthropomorphic piece of paper sang to them about bills in elementary school.

The British East India company had the power to jail and kill, for centuries.

The Head of the Executive Branch is the CEO of government agencies.

Anything is possible.

~~~
clomond
Very interesting comment.

The statement was written with the lens of very different goals (corporations
maximize profit within the context of selling goods and services where
governments - usually, serve the people sufficiently to maintain control &
power over its people by being “great leaders”).

Corporations usually sell goods and services, but do not have control over
individuals most fundamental rights including those of freedom, health or even
life - like governments often do. Corporations also rarely have militaries nor
are the final backstop for when disagreements occur.

Your example is interesting because it compares probably the most government
like corporation to ever exist (the Dutch East India Company) and the most
“nurfed” head of state by most metrics to ever exist (I.e. the least powerful
relative to power of the nation - the American President, while being the head
of the largest economically and most powerful country, role by role is quite
restricted and limited in scope and control by design of the founding
fathers).

~~~
asgard1024
> Corporations usually sell goods and services, but do not have control over
> individuals most fundamental rights including those of freedom, health or
> even life - like governments often do.

And yet in the U.S., your health care and pension is often tied to your
employment at a corporation. For some people, for example those on work visa,
having employment in a particular corporation is tied to living in the same
country.

Vice versa, a democratic government has less control over your life than you
might think.

And if we look at things like free speech - I can freely criticize the
government but criticizing the corporation is often difficult.

~~~
TheSpiceIsLife
> I can freely criticize the government but criticizing the corporation is
> often difficult.

What do you mean by this?

Google is a smoking pile of dumpster fires filled with turds.

Should I now expect Google agents to come to my house and disappear my family
and I?

~~~
asgard1024
I come from a former communist country. Non-existence of free speech didn't
always mean that somebody will disappear you. It might also have meant that
you lose your cushy job and get a less cushy job. Which is not really all that
different from what can happen if you openly criticize the CEO of your
corporation, even internally.

------
copp
The usual discussion on this topic goes like this:

Apple defenders - It is their right to do it, since Android store allows them.

Others - Apple is being a hypocrite. While they maintain that app store must
be compensated for all the services they do to developers, When given a chance
they do not agree with their above statement.

I feel w.r.t app stores, Google is User-centric, but Apple is Apple-Centric at
the expense of their customers. They use users as pawns, to bully the best for
Apple, rather than their customers (you and I).

edit: To explain "user centric" better

Because of Apple's rules, you cannot just sign-up from Netflix app in iOS. You
have to sign up in their Browser and then sign in. And Netflix is not allowed
to even specify that in the app. Absolutely confusing, for normal users. Very
bad user experience.

That is what I say when they are holding you as pawns. Apple is okay for you
and I to go through that confusing experience, instead of allowing Netflix to
tell them that users have to sign up in the browser.

~~~
Razengan
> _but Apple is Apple-Centric at the expense of their customers_

Apple has done a lot to curtail scummy developer practices and protect users.

You could go over each of their App Store policies and see how few of them are
"at the expense of their customers."

Not the least are their privacy and anti-tracking protections. iOS 14 already
caught many apps (including Discord and Instagram) stealing our clipboard data
and secretly accessing camera, mic and location.

Claiming Google is "user-centric" and Apple isn't, usually means taking the
side of the corporations that are hurt by limited access to user data.

~~~
politelemon
> iOS 14 already caught many apps (including Discord and Instagram) stealing
> our clipboard data and secretly accessing camera, mic and location.

Not really, this has just been a PR exercise that I'm watching with
fascination - the real news is that they've shifted focus away from their own
shortcomings. The real news here is that iOs14 allows unrestricted clipboard
access. Think about that for a moment. Instead of actually fixing the issue,
they choose to highlight it and call out apps for using the platform in a way
they have allowed.

~~~
Razengan
Even if you gatekeep and hand-wave every positive thing they do as "PR" and
"shifting focus away from their own shortcomings", it has benefited users.

> _The real news here is that iOs14 allows unrestricted clipboard access._

Every OS does, no? Which steps has Android or Windows taken? (genuinely
curious)

------
ehsankia
I honestly did not even think Apple Music was on Android. Are their other
services there too, such as TV, News, etc?

EDIT: Yep, the only 3 apps from Apple are: Music, Beats and "Move to iOS"

~~~
ffpip
While Google publishes every app they make on iOS, because that's the best way
they can gain access to user data there.

~~~
ehsankia
Feel free to be as cynical as you want, but it also happens to be the far more
user friendly thing to do.

------
um304
Double standards! Apple has removed so many apps from App Store because of the
same reason.

~~~
risyachka
Google explicitly says in their policy that you don't have to use their in-app
billing to pay for music.

~~~
ffpip
I didn't post to show Apple is breaking rules. I wanted to show they were
'freeloading', the same thing they are accusing Spotify and Epic of . They
aren't worried about 'user experience, security and convenience' here.

Google has a problem with games like Fortnite and PUBG, because then they
would lose too much. Kids spend millions on Fortnite.

~~~
AmericanChopper
Google Play Store and the Apple App Store can’t be compared in this way,
because they provide completely different services. The Apple App Store review
process is far more thorough, and expensive to operate. Apple also invest more
into ensuring the privacy and security objectives they have for the App Store
are met by way of OS development. It’s not surprising that Google prices some
services differently, and Apple is 100% playing by the rules.

Regarding your comments about security and UX, I know which one of those
companies I trust more on both of those fronts. What phone number do I call
for a billing issue with Google?

~~~
ffpip
Why do you think I'm supporting Google? Google is worse. I'm saying apple
doesn't go through the play store on Android. Is no convenience or security
needed there?

> because they provide completely different services

They provide the exact same thing. Review process is not related to the
service they provide. It is related to devs putting their app on the store.

> Google prices some services differently, and Apple is 100% playing by the
> rules.

Apple does the same thing with Amazon. They also demand a fee on iOS, while
taking a freeride on Android.

> What phone number do I call for a billing issue with Google

You didn't say what billing issue. A quick search gave me this number
1-877-355-5787 . I'm not tech support.

~~~
AmericanChopper
Well Apple does distribute Apple Music via the Play Store, and it follows all
of Google’s rules around payment processing.

> They provide the exact same thing. Review process is not related to the
> service they provide.

The review process is a part of the service they provide to their paying
customers, and it is a key market differentiator for Apple.

> Apple does the same thing with Amazon.

Apple doesn’t take a cut of any sale of physical goods via apps.

> A quick search gave me this number 1-877-355-5787

There actually is no number, because Google doesn’t offer that level of
support (unlike Apple). That is the phone number for premium G Suite and Cloud
Identity customers.

~~~
ffpip
> follows all of Google’s rules around payment processing

That's the thing. They are not implementing these rules on iOS while following
them on other platforms.

>Apple does the same thing with Amazon.

I was talking about Prime Video. Amazon got a discount

~~~
AmericanChopper
I can’t see what argument you’re putting forward for why Apple is being
hypocritical here. Because they distribute their own apps on the Play Store
they should required to implement all of the same policies that the Play Store
does on their own App Store?...

------
koluna
If Apple is so keen on a great user experience, and that’s why they force
everyone through the their own IAP funnel, then they should do the same on
Android - after all, it’s not about the profit margin, but ease of use.

Clearly it is not.

------
njsubedi
Why did this post move from #1 to #36 within minutes?

~~~
altmind
Can confirm, 380 points, 2 hours ago. Position 36. Why?

~~~
reallydontask
Maybe due to there being a previous discussion?

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23564247](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23564247)

~~~
ffpip
Are there algorithms on HN, that sort through previous discussions and
determine freshness, etc?

Or is it a moderator/human review

~~~
njsubedi
Afaik it’s a human review. But they could as well add a label like (dupe) so
we didn’t have to be hugely surprised when a post disappears when reloading
the homepage.

------
rawoke083600
These days, and trust me I hear myself saying and typing this, it seems
Microsoft is the "good guys" bar the repeated GitHub failures. Seems
HackerNews is full of stories how Apple and Google is doing XYZ to developers
or services. What a world we live in !

~~~
kanobo
I'm in my thirties and it's amazing to watch Microsoft evolve since the 90s.
As a teenager I would never have imagined the words 'Open Source' would ever
be in a <h1> tag on a Microsoft-branded website.

~~~
rawoke083600
Shame ! Late thirties - I feel privileged to have grown up in the 90's when
everybody(companies) were still not sure what to make of "the internet" and
Microsoft were the ones using dirty tactics and OpenSource+Linux was enemy #1
!

Oh well - I need to go update my "ipchains" arg I mean "iptables" :D

------
jeroenhd
Kind of scummy for Apple not to hold themselves to their standards, but then
again I expect no less from them. The exemptions in the Play Store rules say
they can, so there's not much anyone can do to stop this.

However, Apple may very well shoot themselves in the foot here. They just
showed that they do not believe their own marketing speak about it being fair
to pay an additional fee to keep app stores running and other such arguments.

------
llarsson
What an Epic move by Apple. Quite ironic.

~~~
hacksore
Baffling for sure!

------
cblconfederate
Now let's discuss which jail is the best to spend our holidays in.

------
praveen9920
People have lot of opinions about apple but looking at ground reality of the
situation, Within Apple, there must be a small team which is taking all the
decisions for this product and they realized that they need to do CC
integration for improving profits.

Should we hold the whole company for this? Yes, of course. Real question
should be how can a company which is as big as Apple can make sure their
standards are propagated across all teams.

I'm not trying to defend apple here but it is a real problem I see in lot of
big companies.

~~~
gandutraveler
Totally agree. There are company policies which are enforced across teams like
trust, safety privacy either via process or reviews. I haven't seen any large
tech companies having policies/safeguards on how the revenue is made. In the
end it's all about making money.

------
edude03
Previous discussion
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23564247](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23564247)

------
freakynit
And apple blocked fortnite for doing the same on iOS. How much more hypocrite
can Apple get? #FreeFortnite

~~~
ffpip
I think that is the first time I've ever seen a hashtag on HN. I only joined a
few months ago

------
hacksore
It’s pretty ironic that apple just removed fortnite for for doing this same
thing. Shouldn’t this mean that google pulls Apple Music from the play store
now?

Edit: seems google is ok with this

~~~
risyachka
It is explicitly stated in google policy that you can use direct credit card
payment for music.

~~~
pietrovismara
A) the same information has been already posted in many comments on this
thread. No need to shill like this.

B) that's not even the point. It's not about the rules but about Apple's
hypocrisy, since in this case they don't care about all the values they used
as excuse to prevent other devs from doing on the app store what Apple is
doing on the play store.

------
jameson
Ouch

------
septillianator
Apple is obligated to maximize shareholders value. Google is a competitor as
well. If apple did anything otherwise, it would cause shareholders losses. Its
a publicly traded company. This is capitalism, not Apple.

~~~
michaelmrose
That a company is obligated to do absolutely anything that will increase
revenue is a position often advanced on the internet and never supported.

You cannot have a bonfire and literally burn the companies wealth in your
backyard. One may in fact weigh the tangible and non tangible benefits of
different courses of actions and make an intelligent decision.

This is covered ably in this article by Cornell

[https://www.lawschool.cornell.edu/academics/clarke_business_...](https://www.lawschool.cornell.edu/academics/clarke_business_law_institute/corporations-
and-society/Common-Misunderstandings-About-Corporations.cfm)

If I may reproduce the most relevant segment.

>Third, corporate directors are not required to maximize shareholder value. As
the U.S. Supreme Court recently stated, "modern corporate law does not require
for-profit corporations to pursue profit at the expense of everything else,
and many do not do so." ( BURWELL v. HOBBY LOBBY STORES, INC. ) In nearly all
legal jurisdictions, disinterested and informed directors have the discretion
to act in what they believe to be the interest of the business corporate
entity, even if this differs from maximizing profits for present shareholders.
Usually maximizing shareholder value is not a legal obligation, but the
product of the pressure that activist shareholders, stock-based compensation
schemes and financial markets impose on corporate directors.

Additional reading is linked for the interested.

