
Storyboarder: free, cross-platform storyboard tool - open-source-ux
https://wonderunit.com/storyboarder/
======
opensourcenews
Note: This licensing is really unclear and problematic.

[https://twitter.com/charlesforman/status/909863346127671296](https://twitter.com/charlesforman/status/909863346127671296)

[https://wonderunit.com/thoughts-on-free-and-open-
source/](https://wonderunit.com/thoughts-on-free-and-open-source/)

~~~
setpixel
Why is it problematic? I think I lay my thoughts out pretty clearly.

~~~
opensourcenews
Because open source has a very specific definition which the licensing on this
application does not conform to. The ability to produce derived works is a key
attribute of open source.

And I understand that these are your thoughts, but what I'm looking for is a
clear and legally enforceable license, which seems to still be missing.

~~~
aviflombaum
I would love to know the very specific definition of open source you are
referring too. I believe there are multiple very specific definitions that are
drastically different, from Stallman's "Free Software" to "Open Source" to
"Creative Commons" and the flavors in-between. The proliferation of Open
Source Licenses seems to suggest that it's not as clear as your myopic
viewpoint suggests.

"The ability to produce derived works is a key attribute of open source."
Where did you get that gem from?

"but what I'm looking for is a clear and legally enforceable license, which
seems to still be missing." As far as I know the only OS License that has been
deemed enforceable is GNU General Public License.

It's free software and the code is viewable, what's so hard to understand?

~~~
opensourcenews
> Where did you get that gem from?

From the open source definition:
[https://opensource.org/osd](https://opensource.org/osd)

> As far as I know the only OS License that has been deemed enforceable is GNU
> General Public License.

The OSI recognizes a number of different licenses, as do the attorneys of the
numerous individuals and companies making use of them.

> It's free software

It's not, unless I have a legal right to redistribute a modified copy.

"Open source" and "free software" both have requirements to meet their
respective definitions. And additonally, "source is viewable" is not the same
thing as a license.

~~~
aviflombaum
OpenSource.org doesn't own the definition of "Open Source." It's a concept and
idea interpreted and implemented by lots of people in different ways meaning
different things.

No one gets to "own" what open source means.

But, in their definition: "The license must allow modifications and derived
works, and must allow them to be distributed under the same terms as the
license of the original software."

All that says is that derived works are allowed under the same terms as the
original software, which technically could enforce a royalty payment to the
original for any derivative, how would that sit with you?

You're conflating community and cultural definitions with legal precedents and
enforceability. GNU GPL is the only enforceable one in a US (and I think UK)
court of law.

In the end of the day, what's the argument - you want the software creator to
use a LICENSE you approve of or else not call their software release "free" or
"open" because you feel that misleading?

~~~
pessimizer
> OpenSource.org doesn't own the definition of "Open Source."

Don't they, though? "Open Source" is not even a natural turn of phrase like
"Free Software" is. Open Source is a strange phrase made up to describe a
specific thing, and that thing is not that the source is available to be
viewed.

edit: Also, thinking that the GPL is the only enforceable software license is
just strange.

~~~
kittiepryde
I was watching a stream at one time (wish I had a link, but it was a Microsoft
project), and they called that concept 'source open' (viewable but not not
modifiable).

~~~
cookiecaper
I think the preferred term for software that doesn't comply with the OSI's
definition is "source available".

------
pmontra
If the author reads this, I can't view the site with the latest Firefox on
Android (can't check the desktop one yet). The error is
SSL_ERROR_NO_CYPHER_OVERLAP which means that the site and Firefox don't share
any cipher so it's really the end of the story.

The ciphers supported by Firefox are

TLS_ECDHE_ECDSA_WITH_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (0xc02b)
TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (0xc02f)
TLS_ECDHE_ECDSA_WITH_CHACHA20_POLY1305_SHA256 (0xcca9)
TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_CHACHA20_POLY1305_SHA256 (0xcca8)
TLS_ECDHE_ECDSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (0xc02c)
TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (0xc030)
TLS_ECDHE_ECDSA_WITH_AES_256_CBC_SHA (0xc00a)
TLS_ECDHE_ECDSA_WITH_AES_128_CBC_SHA (0xc009)
TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_CBC_SHA (0xc013) TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_CBC_SHA
(0xc014) TLS_DHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_CBC_SHA (0x33)
TLS_DHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_CBC_SHA (0x39) TLS_RSA_WITH_AES_128_CBC_SHA (0x2f)
TLS_RSA_WITH_AES_256_CBC_SHA (0x35) TLS_RSA_WITH_3DES_EDE_CBC_SHA (0xa)

The last three ones are reported as weak by
[https://www.ssllabs.com/ssltest/viewMyClient.html](https://www.ssllabs.com/ssltest/viewMyClient.html)

The author should add at least one of the others to the web site SSL
configuration.

~~~
danso
Internet Archive has a pretty good snapshot of the site as it appeared earlier
today:

[http://web.archive.org/web/20180328000037/https://wonderunit...](http://web.archive.org/web/20180328000037/https://wonderunit.com/storyboarder/)

~~~
mcny
I also like archive to or archive is

You can archive things on demand.

[https://archive.fo/PAL3t](https://archive.fo/PAL3t)

~~~
danso
FWIW, Internet Archive provides snapshot-on-demand too -- see the "Save Page
Now" feature in the bottom-right:
[http://web.archive.org/](http://web.archive.org/)

More info: [https://blog.archive.org/2017/01/25/see-something-save-
somet...](https://blog.archive.org/2017/01/25/see-something-save-something/)

------
IAmEveryone
NOTE: You may want to stay far away from this project.

The author is trying to do an end-run around Open Source licensing, as can be
seen in the last section of this weird and rambling rant:
[https://web.archive.org/web/20180130105751/https://wonderuni...](https://web.archive.org/web/20180130105751/https://wonderunit.com/thoughts-
on-free-and-open-source/)

There have been several issues and PRs raised trying to add a license to the
project. These were never acknowledged by the author, and silently closed
after a while.

~~~
danso
It's a strange position that the author takes. It seems that a good part of
his reluctance/cautiousness comes from a run-in with some educator who forked
the repo and made some aesthetic changes ("removed all the swears") and then
scrubbed the fork of any mention of "Wonder Unit":

> _The readme, the software, and even the images. Because of the way GitHub
> works, it now looks like we are contributors on his project._

IANAL, but if Storyboarder was MIT License, this forker couldn't just scrub
the license of all mention of Wonder Unit (or whoever was listed as copyright
holders), right? But as far as making a fork look like his own project...Sure,
that's the risk with any open source venture, but by and large, forks
(especially by individual people) don't seem to go anywhere. This forker isn't
likely to end up with anything but an outdated buggy copy of a ostensibly
popular and evolving product.

It does seems like the creator and his collaborators have put in a non-trivial
amount of thought and desire into going OSS, but are also wary of running into
any unseen pitfalls. It just seems strange that they've come this far
developing the product and putting it in the open; why be hung up about some
educator doofus who wants to clean up cuss words in the code/docs, as if he
and his ilk present a real threat to what Wonder Unit have made?

edit: grammer, wording

~~~
fapjacks
Right, and even a cursory search would reveal that for license violations, you
can file a DMCA takedown request with Github against the offending repository
[0]. It literally takes ten minutes and Github is _required by law_ to act
immediately and ask questions later. And then at that point, the ball's in the
other guy's court. He could file a DMCA Counter Notice with Github to get the
repository reinstated, but in doing so, he is swearing under penalty of
perjury that he is telling the truth claiming that he didn't violate the
original code's license. If the forker didn't credit Wonder Unit as required
by their original license [1], well, then _clearly_ Wonder Unit has a case to
have the code removed. This isn't Vietnam. There are rules.

[0] [https://help.github.com/articles/dmca-takedown-
policy/](https://help.github.com/articles/dmca-takedown-policy/)

[1]
[https://choosealicense.com/licenses/mit/](https://choosealicense.com/licenses/mit/)

~~~
IAmEveryone
The Github ToC require you to allow forks for public repositories. So a fork
on Github is almost literally the _only_ use of this software that they
couldn't stop.

I'm reasonably certain that Github would check this when served with a DMCA
notice, as well. The ToC read as if they are a reaction to exactly such a
case. They don't want it to be possible to infringe copyright with the single
click of a button.

~~~
fapjacks
But the fork wasn't the problem. The problem was the forker scrubbing
attribution, which is against the license it supposedly had at the time. Or,
at least, that seemed to have been the problem at the time?

------
jjeaff
Interesting that pains were taken to require an email before downloading, even
an extensive blacklist to block throwaway email services like mailinator. Yet,
the release is freely available on the linked github page.

~~~
dEnigma
Seems like setpixel now wants more than just your email:

[https://twitter.com/charlesforman/status/978808181425082368](https://twitter.com/charlesforman/status/978808181425082368)

~~~
theyinwhy
@setpixel, your behaviour is very unpleasing and clearly violates the most
important principle of hackernews: civility.

"Since long before the web, the anonymity of online conversation has lured
people into being much ruder than they'd be in person. So the principle here
is: don't say anything you wouldn't say face to face. This doesn't mean you
can't disagree. But disagree without calling names. If you're right, your
argument will be more convincing without them."

You can find the rest of the site guidelines here:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/newswelcome.html](https://news.ycombinator.com/newswelcome.html)

------
hellofunk
Apparently, the author of the software thinks all "good" artists steal the
software they use:

> "Let's be completely real – I've never known anyone working on dope ass shit
> to be paying for the software they use anyways."

If I had known this, I wouldn't be giving up several hundred dollars a year
for Adobe Creative Cloud. No wonder I'm not a good artist.

~~~
bauerd
The whole paragraph makes me wonder what went through the author's head …

>And fuck Sony Pictures. They make the worst fucking movies. What does that
have to do with free software? Not much. Maybe use free software to make great
movies and don't waste money going to a Sony movie? Fuck.

>And fuck Dave Morin. And Gary Vaynerchuk. Ugh.

~~~
hellofunk
Clearly he has a vendetta against key people in the industry and wishes to
call them out with school-yard bully insults.

------
setpixel
Hi, this is Charles. I made Storyboarder. I used to be in YC in 2006. We are a
super small team, making Storyboarder without any funding. We're just trying
to make a tool to use on our own movie project. 150k people use Storyboarder
and we are struggling to keep up with the response.

~~~
atarian
I'm interested in seeing the movie. Where can I find more info about it?

~~~
setpixel
just email me: charles@setpixel.com - its not even close to done yet tho

~~~
master-litty
Are you making an animated film? 2D or 3D?

------
pcurve
The shot generator feature looks unbelievable.

Scroll down and check out this text. Would love to get inside scoop on this.

"Storyboard Pro - Shitty software that costs $1000? Boords and other online
software that just allows you to order images and costs a monthly fee?

Fuck those guys.

And fuck Sony Pictures. They make the worst fucking movies. What does that
have to do with free software? Not much. Maybe use free software to make great
movies and don't waste money going to a Sony movie? Fuck.

And fuck Dave Morin. And Gary Vaynerchuk. Ugh."

~~~
setpixel
I just wrote that because it's how I feel, and it's free software. I answer to
no god but myself.

~~~
opensourcenews
But again, to be clear, it's not free software according to the commonly
accepted definition of free software.

[https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-
sw.en.html](https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.en.html)

~~~
keithnz
well, to be clear, the dictionary says free means "without charge". You can
use this software "without charge"

~~~
egeozcan
"Free software" and "open source" have very clear meanings in software
industry. Nobody can force you to use them correctly but don't get angry or
even act surprised when people complain that you are wrong and even deceitful
(when the error doesn't seem naive).

If you go to a flight engineer and say that a plane has a high risk of
stalling, first thing the engineer thinks would be a problem in the
aerodynamics, not some engine problem, which would not make sense according to
the dictionary definition: _Stalling: Stop running, typically because of an
overload on the engine_. (Random example from the top of my head and my
example can theoretically be very wrong, but I hope my point is clear).

~~~
Flimm
I agree with you on "open source", that term was basically introduced by the
OSI and people still stick to the OSI definition, but I cannot agree with you
on the term "free", that word has a very long history of meaning gratis long
before the FSF.

~~~
egeozcan
I personally understand different things when I hear that an application is
"free" vs that it is "free software" [1].

It also helps to look at the more correct terms to use when talking about a
different kind of "free" [2].

It doesn't actually matter, but even if we dig the actual root of the word,
and its usage, we see that the "libre" meaning precedes the "kostenlos"
(without monetary cost). It meant "noble, free person" in the proto-Germanic
[3]. If you say that someone is a free person, no sane person would think that
he/she can be owned for free. So the phrase "free software" is a very
unsuitable substitute for "free to redistribute" or "free to use", even when
you ignore the industry jargon. License to use it is free, not the software.

[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_software](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_software)
,
[https://fsfe.org/freesoftware/basics/summary.en.html](https://fsfe.org/freesoftware/basics/summary.en.html)
, [https://www.fsf.org/about/what-is-free-
software](https://www.fsf.org/about/what-is-free-software) ,
[https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-
sw.en.html](https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.en.html)

[2]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_software_(disambiguation)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_software_\(disambiguation\))

[3]:
[https://www.etymonline.com/word/free](https://www.etymonline.com/word/free)

------
ixtli
Buried deep in the marketing page is a dynamic shot generator powered by
typing in keywords?! I don't know much about video production but this seems
insanely cool.

~~~
setpixel
Once you play with it, you'll see it's really early. There's so much I want to
do with it. It's very much v.0.1 of shot generator.

~~~
ixtli
I'm not surprised. I'm not really in that biz, so it's just really cool to me
that such a thing exists. I love coming across applications of tech that, to
us engineers, are pretty simple but to the user are game changing.

------
hellofunk
This snippet:

> When I look at people like Richard Stallman, I just don’t know what they
> want out of life, but it’s certainly not to cultivate great taste, or to
> make great art. He seems to want to politicize some open source agenda as a
> religion to the detriment of taking a shower or exercising. I fail to see
> what he is trying to achieve. He seems to connect with only certain types of
> people - definitely not me.

------
needcaffeine
I cannot get the site to load in Chrome 65, by the way. I'm getting:

>This site can’t provide a secure connection

>wonderunit.com uses an unsupported protocol.

>ERR_SSL_VERSION_OR_CIPHER_MISMATCH

~~~
danso
Same here. Works fine on Chrome iOS from my iPhone.

------
westondeboer
the download link
[https://wonderunit.com/storyboarder/download/](https://wonderunit.com/storyboarder/download/)

------
dbranes
For people wondering about the type of thing that the generator supports,
there's this config file
[https://github.com/wonderunit/storyboarder/blob/f0a7cc75beb1...](https://github.com/wonderunit/storyboarder/blob/f0a7cc75beb1247a6317411a133fb1345b6395ad/src/js/shot-
template-system/shot-properties.js)

------
wodenokoto
The software looks very impressive, and the marketing page really sells it
well.

I know next to nothing about storyboarding, and I can see easily see the
value-proposition of it.

The author himself seems like quite the character too, judging both from the
comments in this thread and on some of the off-hand remarks in the marketing
material.

~~~
the-dude
Do you mean he seems to be his own worst enemy?

------
gitgud
Wow Generating the initial wire-frame scenes with the shot-generator feature
looks amazing!

------
thedaemon
Wow, I feel really bad for the authors of this wonderful free software.(Even
though I liked the previous Storyboard Foundation build better...) Everyone
hating on the project because it doesn't have a normal license is a weird
thing to complain about. This software is for artists; we just use software
and we don't really care about the license. We use paid and free software.
That is the only different to the end user. Is it paid or free? Software that
is open-source has little to no effect on me directly as an artist. I don't
edit the code, I use the software.

~~~
monkmartinez
That is not smart. "Artist" or not does not preclude one from the enforcement
of law.

Its like saying; "I'am just going to build a sculpture right here.... I don't
really care about the codes or who owns the land, I am an artist so rules
don't apply to me!"

------
askvictor
This looks awesome; a quick look at the source shows it uses Electron. How
feasible would it be to package as a Chrome app? I would be awesome in
education, but a lot of our students use Chromebooks.

~~~
setpixel
I'd love to try to figure that out!!! Do chromebooks have pens?

~~~
askvictor
Some do, some don't. Increasing numbers of them have touchscreens though.
Also, some of them have access to the Android Play store, so if it can be
packaged as an Android app, that might also work. I don't know what sort of
API's chromebooks have for pens though.

------
dharness
I found the drawing tools limiting -- I just need 1 brush that has the option
to change: \- size \- opacity \- color

Also there are a finite set a pre-defined artboard sizes for some reason.

~~~
setpixel
We have a totally new drawing system we are working on:
[https://s3.amazonaws.com/test.wonderunit.com/index.html](https://s3.amazonaws.com/test.wonderunit.com/index.html)

~~~
maroonblazer
Nice! FWIW I think Procreate does a really great job of striking the right
balance between options/flexibility and simplicity.

~~~
setpixel
Yes! I'm modelling after their brush system.

------
spookyuser
This is amazing, the frame-generator is so futuristic I feel like it could
almost replace Frameforge as is. I can't wait to see how this matures.

------
sramam
This looks really wonderful!

Interesting that there is a CLA, but no embedded license file? Rather curious
for such a well executed application and launch page.

~~~
setpixel
Thanks! I haven't made up my mind on the LIC yet. As for the launch page, it's
a thing that comes easy to me.

------
dec0dedab0de
I would rather pay for Free Software than use zero cost Non-Free Software.

Edit: To elaborate, if you take the time to learn how to use this, and
incorporate it into your workflow, you're at the mercy of the developer. If
they decide to stop distributing it, and you get a new computer, then you're
not even legally allowed to install it.

------
askvictor
Just had a play; stylus input works a treat, as does mouse/trackpad, but using
a touchscreen (finger, or 'dumb stylus') doesn't seem to let me draw
continuous lines at all. A _lot_ of laptops have touchscreens nowadays, much
fewer have 'real' styluses.

------
hippich
I am no story designer and just checked it out out of interest.

For whatever reason drawing (using touchpad on my laptop) is super slow
(running it in Ubuntu 16.04) - is it expected and I should be using tablet to
draw, or this is some issue with my video drivers or something along these
lines?

------
erichdongubler
This is odd because the "download link" that gets mailed seems to be a
MailChimp email subscribe link too. What the heck? I wanted a download link,
not a subscription to whatever marketing you want to send my way later...

------
mindcrash
"An error occurred during a connection to wonderunit.com. Cannot communicate
securely with peer: no common encryption algorithm(s). Error code:
SSL_ERROR_NO_CYPHER_OVERLAP"

What the hell?

------
fredguth
Reminds me of an old tool called Animator.

------
erikb
https errror and it's not just that the certificate is unknown.

------
ohmichel
WOW! So cool what Wonderunit just did; a really cool, useful, FREE creative
software.

------
ausjke
site is down, DDOSed by HN visitors I assume

~~~
setpixel
You can download from here:
[https://github.com/wonderunit/storyboarder/releases](https://github.com/wonderunit/storyboarder/releases)
Feel free to star too :D

------
fairpx
This is genius! As a designer & storyteller I love this and I’d like to
support you guys with my team’s UI design power (we occasionally help open
source or charity projects for free). Reach out if you guys could need some UI
design help. Details in my bio.

~~~
warent
It's a nice gesture but why not email them directly with the contact info on
the website? Maybe I'm being a prig but this post seems like an ad, free or
not

~~~
dragontamer
You're not alone in your sentiment. There are a few posts around here that do
not "feel" like a typical Hacker News post. So my astro-turfing alarms are
going off.

Granted, this looks like a good tool (at minimum: a very good marketing page),
and the practice of astroturfing is unfortunately utilitarian (aka: it works )
in many contexts. But there's something offputting about some of the comments
on this story right now.

With that being said: I'm not entirely sure if this tool is best suited for
the hacker news audience? Its definitely more of an art tool, while the
audience around here is more programmer / technical.

------
antidaily
Dooooooope.

------
senectus1
Dammit I wanted to see this... hope the site comes back up soon!

~~~
setpixel
Hmmm - is DNS not responding? I was switching to cloudflare earlier, maybe I
screwed something up. Had no idea I was going to be on HN

~~~
askvictor
I'm getting this problem from my work network, but works fine from my 4G
connection.

