
Samsung TVs May Upload Screenshots for Automatic Content Recognition - aritmo
https://www.samsung.com/us/account/privacy-policy/
======
buddylw
I'm getting ready to go full Battlestar Galactica in all of my appliances.
It's now difficult to find high end washers and ovens without these features.

At least right now we can choose not to connect the devices, but what happens
if iot LTE connections get cheap enough that the choice is removed altogether,
like with Tesla and other high end modern cars?

I don't think I'm just being a Luddite. This really seems like a bad idea. We
need some way to assure security and limit data collection.

~~~
joeblau
I was talking to a few people in a slack channel the other day about the
potential market for a whole set of "dumb" appliances. At the end of the day,
we came to the conclusion that it wouldn't be a able to reach mass market
because the mass consumers seem to care more about price than security.

~~~
Kaibeezy
Make cars too, please.

Manual transmission (actual stick and clutch, not silly paddles), minimal
ECUs, disableable seatbelt chime, cigar lighter, and so forth. You know, less
cyber.

~~~
andrewksl
Wouldn’t that make it almost impossible to meet emission regulations? I’m not
a fan of how opaque cars have gotten, but I’ll accept some loss of control for
cleaner air.

~~~
Scoundreller
Automatics are still too dumb to keep the clutch engaged while braking.

Officially automatics and manuals are a wash for mileage, but I think driving
style can make manuals the winner.

All that kinetic energy getting dissipated by brakes instead of turning the
engine and all of its accessories in autos.

I’m quite surprised auto manufacturers haven’t implemented engine braking for
émissions, reducing brake wear, and quicker « free » cabin heat in cold
conditions.

~~~
Phillipharryt
Automatics disengage the driveshaft to save wear on engine parts. It's an
active decision, not being "too dumb". Wearing out brakes is cheaper to fix
than wearing out your brakes, and people like longer lasting, cheaper to fix,
cars.

~~~
Scoundreller
I figured they disengaged because they can’t know if you’re wanting to coast
or wanting to brake when you step off the accelerator.

If they always assumed you wanted to brake, that would really hurt mileage.

And it would have to disengage anyway at some point to avoid stalling.

Engine braking is more RPMs in aggregate, but nothing particularly bad for an
engine.

~~~
Phillipharryt
Automatics don't use a traditional clutch for transmissions, so it wouldn't
actually stall, but your other points could be true.

------
userbinator
The old Soviet Russia and Orwell jokes have taken on a whole new meaning in
these "modern times"... 6 years ago it was discovered --- through packet
inspection --- that LG TVs actually did something similar:

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6759426](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6759426)

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6778397](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6778397)

Now I bet they're all using TLS and won't let you trust your own certificates,
making it even more difficult to MITM it and verify what exact information
it's sending.

For those who don't mind a bit of DIY, you can "lobotomize" a smart TV by
replacing the main board with a dumb one of the type used in computer monitors
--- there are many online sellers of these, just search for "LVDS board" or
"scaler board". You will need to know the model of the panel, and the seller
should be able to help with that since the board needs to be programmed with
the correct parameters for the panel it's driving. Something like this:
[https://www.aliexpress.com/i/32860791745.html](https://www.aliexpress.com/i/32860791745.html)

------
notduncansmith
It’s hard to believe Samsung has any customers outside of their Korean
hegemony.

Samsung hasn’t proven themselves as a trustworthy smart electronics vendor in
the past, be it smart TV, smart watch, or smart phone:

2015 - [https://www.cnet.com/news/samsung-changes-smarttv-privacy-
po...](https://www.cnet.com/news/samsung-changes-smarttv-privacy-policy-in-
wake-of-spying-fears/)

2015 - [https://arstechnica.com/information-
technology/2015/06/new-e...](https://arstechnica.com/information-
technology/2015/06/new-exploit-turns-samsung-galaxy-phones-into-remote-
bugging-devices/)

2015 - [https://www.cnet.com/news/samsung-lg-smartwatches-yield-
pers...](https://www.cnet.com/news/samsung-lg-smartwatches-yield-personal-
data-to-researchers/)

2015 - [https://www.techhive.com/article/2881944/samsungs-latest-
sma...](https://www.techhive.com/article/2881944/samsungs-latest-smart-tv-
snafu-injects-pepsi-ads-into-your-personal-videos.html)

2016 -
[https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/oct/19/samsung-g...](https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/oct/19/samsung-
galaxy-s6-explosion-lawsuit-note-7-recalls)

2018 - [https://betanews.com/2018/07/03/samsung-messages-photo-
bug/](https://betanews.com/2018/07/03/samsung-messages-photo-bug/)

2018 - [https://www.consumerreports.org/televisions/samsung-roku-
sma...](https://www.consumerreports.org/televisions/samsung-roku-smart-tvs-
vulnerable-to-hacking-consumer-reports-finds/)

That’s not to mention they’ve been found price fixing, astroturfing,
embezzling, and bribing.

Vote with your dollar.

~~~
amphibian87
I agree, Samsung doesn't deserve our money. I boycotted Samsung after they
destroyed my perfectly good Galaxy s5 with software updates. Sadly, the Pixel
I got next wasn't much better.

They dominate certain RAM markets though, and that's kind of unfortunate.

~~~
kowbell
I had an S5 too, and actually still have it in case I ever need a backup (e.g.
last week when _my_ Pixel started getting caught in an infinite boot loop!)
Though I hadn't noticed the S5 being destroyed by software updates - the only
reason I stopped using it is because they stopped updating it and it was
locked from custom ROMs, which was a sad conclusion because it had still
decent hardware. Could you elaborate on the villainous updates you
encountered?

~~~
hvindin
My personal S5 experience leads me to believe that there was some trickery
afoot from Samsung's end.

When I realised that my S5 was starting to get a little bit dodgy (having
owned it from April 2011 until around December 2018) I went and bought 8 of
them. Surprisingly, they were still available for purchase on the Samsung
website over 7 years after they were originally released, although they
quickly ran out of stock and I needed to go trawling through mobile phone
stores asking them to check their store rooms.

From here I noticed that every time I updated my phone to the latest software
version, deleted all the extraneous bloatware that actually made no sense to
have pre-installed, and go to using a device: it would start to behave weirdly
within weeks. Apps that had previously run just fine (like, as an example,
google maps) were laggy and constantly crashed.

After going through 6 of the 8 phones in just over 3 months (the rate of
failure seemed to have more to do with the fact that they were S5's in 2019
than anything I was doing to them) I eventually just gave up and bought an
S10+ (because I honestly just wanted to see what the hell one would do with a
terabyte of Storage on their phone - turns out it's absolutely nothing, but
the possibilities initially intrigued me, but I guess I'm not really creative
enough to come up with something worth doing with all that storage space).

Now I'm still bitterly using the aforementioned S10+ waiting for someone to
release a phone that I perceive to be as good as the S5....

So no hard data, just my experience with a large amount of S5's that all
seemed to become unusable based on the date rather than actually being
broken....

~~~
skylanh
There are recent updates from LineageOS for the S5 (multiple variants).

[https://download.lineageos.org/](https://download.lineageos.org/)

------
criddell
How did we go from a country that made it a crime to share video rental
records to one where everything you watch is constantly monitored and
monetized?

~~~
JustSomeNobody
Too many people saying, “I have nothing to hide.”

Also, people like “free” stuff.

~~~
asdkhadsj
It's not even a free problem, it's general pricing. Companies constantly seek
ways to increase profits, while customers constantly seek bargain basement
pricing.Electronic privacy is not a problem people have dealt with at large, I
think. People also often view the competency of corporations much higher than
the HN crowd typically does.

I think this is the same for any category of information though. Informed
people will heavily advise against things that the public just has no idea on.
Health is a big one.

My question is what can we do aside from running around in panic? It feels
hopeless.

~~~
ethbro
Mandate transparent disclosure.

Consumers don't care about these schemes because they largely don't know the
details.

There should be clear, tobacco-esque disclosure requirements of this sort of
thing _on the product packaging_.

If Samsung et al. want to data mine their customers in exchange for lower
pricing, they're welcome to do so. What should _not_ be legal is doing so and
_appearing_ the same as a company who does not do so.

Then the market can make up its own mind.

~~~
inetknght
Transparent disclosure doesn't mean shit when the company can honestly say
what it's doing and there's zero repercussions for it.

~~~
jellicle
I think it would make a difference if some TVs came with large stickers
mandated on the box, advertising, and included within, that said:

"THIS TELEVISION MONITORS ALL OF YOUR VIEWING HABITS AND THE DATA IS SOLD FOR
PROFIT. ANY TIME IT IS USED, THE PROGRAM BEING WATCHED IS SENT TO THE
MANUFACTURER. IF YOU DECLINE TO BE MONITORED, YOU HAVE THE RIGHT TO RETURN IT
FOR 30 DAYS FROM DATE OF PURCHASE AT NO CHARGE TO YOU."

and some did not.

------
rohan1024
Few reasons why I prefer dumb TVs, just a flat LED panel:

1\. You have control over bullshit like this

2\. You can make them smart by attaching the external box

3\. You don't have to throw the TV because your Software is now old, just
change the box.

4\. There's new format which requires hardware support (av1 is coming), change
the box.

5\. Want to add new hardware? Upgrade the box.

~~~
twostorytower
What's to prevent you from doing the same with a SmartTV in the future? Just
disconnect it from the network and keep a box plugged into HDMI1.

~~~
M4v3R
Some functions of "smart" TVs are impossible to turn off, unfortunately. I
personally don't like the FPS smoothing most modern TVs do, and for many there
is no option to turn it off completely.

~~~
SlowRobotAhead
I’ve never personally seen a TV that can’t have the soap opera effect turned
off, but I believe you they are out there.

Apples to oranges feature though.

~~~
fernandotakai
it was the first thing i turned off when i bought my LG tv.

funny thing: i did not know the name of it and i couldn't not understand why
"Avengers: Infinity Wars" was so upsetting to watch.

took me literally 20min of poking around to find out the option and turn it
off (it's called "TruMotion").

~~~
SlowRobotAhead
Yea, it’s usually something with Motion or Smooth in it.

What’s crazy to me is that some people can’t see it! Or think they line it...
or the lunatics that actually do!

Once you see it; I don’t think it can be unseen.

------
EddieCPU
That sure is one hell of a privacy policy:

Information we may collect automatically includes information about:

access code , advertising IDs , apps and features you use , app usage
information , clickstream data , connections to certain Services , connections
to other devices , current software version , device model , device settings ,
Google Ad ID , hardware model , IMEI number , IP address , log information ,
MAC address , MNC , mobile network operator , non-persistent device
identifiers , Personalized Service ID , referrer pages , sales code , search
terms , serial number , subscription information , use of third-party websites
, web browser characteristics , web pages you visit

~~~
aritmo
Practically, a Smart TV is an oversize mobile phone that you use in landscape
mode.

In that respect, all ad-supported revenue for a phone is extended to the smart
TVs.

------
kiwee
Unfortunately all vendors do it. Here is how to disable it, for most brands:
[https://www.flatpanelshd.com/focus.php?subaction=showfull&id...](https://www.flatpanelshd.com/focus.php?subaction=showfull&id=1518081245)

~~~
driverdan
Here is how to disable it for all brands: Don't connect your TV to the
internet.

~~~
hatch_q
Some of the newer TVs need to be configured with internet access to even work.

~~~
WiseWeasel
I'd return it and get a different manufacturer.

------
saganus
If you don't want to read the whole thing, the content recognition part is
this:

> Viewing Information Services This privacy notice should be read in
> conjunction with the Samsung Privacy Policy, which also applies to your
> receipt of customized Smart TV experiences and can be found at
> [https://www.samsung.com/us/account/privacy-
> policy/](https://www.samsung.com/us/account/privacy-policy/). In order to
> provide you with customized Smart TV experiences, some of our feature and
> services will rely on your TV viewing history and Smart TV usage
> information. Your TV viewing history includes information about the
> networks, channels, websites visited and programs viewed on your Smart TV
> and the amount of time spent viewing them. We may use automatic content
> recognition (ACR) and other technologies to capture this information. Your
> Smart TV transfers video snippets or TV tuner information in order to
> determine the programs watched.

------
ssss11
To those in this thread denouncing these dystopian times my question to you
is, how do we as technologists create a meaningful and successful career
changing this?

I’ve been against this for a very long time and can’t see any easy way to
contribute (and also provide $ for my family) short of being in government
policy making or law making which would require substantial career changes and
further education and then some luck.

~~~
Skunkleton
Unfortunately I don’t think there is a legitimate opportunity to work on this
problem, and also have a stable high paying job. At the moment I think the
best thing to do is educate people. Eventually, awareness will build and the
market will emerge.

~~~
ssss11
With all the media coverage and growing concern of recent years I was hoping
that time had come.. that’s a shame

~~~
Skunkleton
Well don't take my word for it. I'm just some rando on the internet. There are
positive trends too. Apple sees consumer interest in privacy, for example.

------
mlacks
The answer to connected TVs is commercial display. These are "dumb TVs" that
you've seen 10K times at airports manufactured by the usual suspects such as
Sony, NEC, LG, and yes - even Samsung. They are offered in 4K, have plenty of
ports, and are price competitive to smart TVs

[https://www.necdisplay.com/category?category=displays#1](https://www.necdisplay.com/category?category=displays#1)
[https://pro.sony/en_GB/products/small-
displays](https://pro.sony/en_GB/products/small-displays)

~~~
troydavis
I tried this. At least for larger sizes, the price premium is often 2x or
more. Also, finding HDR - let alone HDR, HDMI-CEC ("Turn on the TV when the
source comes on"), and ARC ("Generate decent audio without two cables") - is
hard:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21664952](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21664952)

It's hard to find a consumer TV that doesn't have HDR, CEC, and ARC in 2019.
Commercial displays may have other missing features I don't know to look for.

Anyway, expect a 200%+ premium for a product that in nearly all respects is
inferior for this task.

------
maxton
Stuff like this is the reason I don’t connect smart TVs to the internet. If I
need web content on the TV, I can connect my laptop with HDMI. The TV should
be no more than a display and speakers with a tuner.

~~~
dividuum
Can't confirm this myself, but in previous threads about similar topics,
people noted that some of those "smart" devices probe every open WiFi they
find and use that without your explicit consent. So it's not always possible
to disconnect them.

~~~
coryrc
Solder the antenna to ground on the wifi module. It's what I'll be doing on my
next TV.

~~~
reilly3000
Or you could just block the TV’s MAC address on your router.

~~~
choward
How does that solve anything? Your WiFi should already be password protected
anyway. It's other people's routers with open networks you need to worry
about.

~~~
lostgame
I don’t see an awful lot of open networks anymore... :/

------
jakereps
I discovered this "feature" when I set up a PiHole on my home network. After a
few days I noticed that my TV was phoning home on an almost minute-by-minute
basis. After digging into the URL (which had the acr in it), I read a few
posts about their data collection and immediately lobotomized my TV (reset to
factory) and disconnected it from the network. There is no universe where the
manufacturer of my television needs to know what I'm watching on it.

------
tjoff
The solution most of us fall back to is to never connect a smart tv to the
internet.

But that is not a long term solution. It is only a matter of time before
devices start shipping with their own sim card that you can not turn off.

I don't know what else to do but to focus on manufacturers that don't do this
in the first place. If there are any.

~~~
dev_tty01
Remote comms with no user intervention or control is already happening in
medical devices. Almost certainly coming to consumer devices soon.

------
sambull
Also the FBI recommends you have a separate network segment for your TV/IoT
devices [0].

[0] [https://www.zdnet.com/article/fbi-recommends-that-you-
keep-y...](https://www.zdnet.com/article/fbi-recommends-that-you-keep-your-
iot-devices-on-a-separate-network/)

------
mrtksn
People like subsidized stuff. People who subsidize things like to do it only
when they are paid more than the subsidies they give and they are paid based
on who they subsidize because the people who are paying the subsidizers must
go to the subsidized people and take their money for the subsidies.

It's a rock-solid business model with a requirement to know your customers,
it's not going away unless a better alternative is invented.

~~~
josho
But consumers are not being informed that they’ve bought a subsidized tv. For
example, Several salespeople have told me in the past few weeks that none of
their TVs serve ads. Looking deeper into the TVs the salesperson was clearly
wrong. Few consumers even know to ask the question. Even fewer know that the
sales guy is wrong.

~~~
mrtksn
Remove ads pop-up at the first set-up? AFAIK the games that offer this option
make a very little portion of their games from ad-removal IAP.

Most people simply don't care enough. For those who care, there will be a
niche premium market.

------
kawsper
I think I read that Roku does this as well, and it does cause a lot of strange
traffic on our network, which is why I want to get rid of our Roku. I'm
considering replacing it with an Apple TV when a new version hits the streets.

~~~
caconym_
At least Roku can only capture screenshots of content it's serving from
itself. Not that I'm defending this practice in any way, but it's
significantly less disturbing than my TV doing the same thing.

What if I'm using my TV to watch [homemade] porn, or browsing sensitive
personal data on a PC connected to the TV, or something like that? Sounds like
Samsung will get screenshots of all my content, regardless of what it is or
which input it's coming through.

~~~
Pxtl
See, that seems like a lawsuit waiting to happen for Samsung.

If it's my content and they're taking a copy and you're living in a place
where clickthrough EULAs are illegal, they're violating copyright.

------
spartas
I run pi-hole and have a Samsung smart TV. How do I know that the Samsung DNS
servers are being blocked? What prevents Samsung from registering new
meaningless-sounding DNS names and continually pushing out TV software updates
peddling “Security and bugfix” release notes?

~~~
Twinklebreeze
This is the exact reason I didn't buy a Samsung smart TV 2 weeks ago. My wife
reminded me about ads, so I looked into using Pihole. It wasn't guaranteed to
work, so I went with a brand that won't run ads on a TV I paid for. That is a
big pet peeve of mine. I hate ads, and refuse to watch them if I pay. I don't
pay for the privilege of viewing ads.

------
dev_tty01
It is simple. Never ever connect the TV to the internet. Use a third party box
(or computer) you trust to handle the streaming connection. Apple has fairly
reasonable privacy policies for Apple TV. Other boxes may as well.

Related anecdote. My TV needed an update via internet. I noticed that there
was no way to delete a wifi password, meaning once connected it was game over.
The only solution was to setup temporary wifi credentials, do the update, then
change the router credentials again.

The TV also asks for wifi credentials to show you help pages. So, enable help
and game over for connectivity and privacy. Nice.

~~~
29083011397778
> My TV needed an update via internet.

How could it possibly know it needed an update? And what could your advantage
be letting it update, considering it would otherwise be forever air-gapped?

~~~
dev_tty01
I knew it needed an update. It was a high-speed HDMI bug that required a
software update. I learned about it via internet searching.

------
jadams3
Surprised I haven't read this in thread yet, but isn't this Issue what makes
homekit enabled routers appealiNg when they finally release ? As I understand
it the router can isolate Internet access on a per device basis.

Yes you can VLAN & firewall your way to the same place, but dealing with it at
a consumer router level seems like a really great feature of homekit to me.

And yes, homekit supported devices are relatively rare and often more
expensive, and they don't have a $€|$$> doorbell. But If we are talking about
BSG Colonial style dishwashers, then this seems like a small price to pay.

------
castratikron
So who is going to start the FOSS smart TV firmware alternative that I can use
as a replacement for Samsung firmware? Or do DRM requirements for apps like
Netflix make that impossible?

------
troydavis
I'm not surprised that most mainstream buyers don't know about this, but I'm
surprised that this is still news to HN readers. In addition to past HN
coverage
([https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21657930](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21657930)
and others), in the last year it's been in NYT, WaPo, Consumer Reports, and
tons of other places.

That said, if anyone doesn't already at least skim the privacy policies of any
networked devices they own… now is a good time.

Even retailers often sell your info. For example, Target "may share your
personal information with other companies." Crate & Barrel may share "a record
of any transactions you conduct on our Website or offline" with third parties.
The defaults are worse than any reasonable person would expect.

(Have a few extra dollars? Consider spending it on a DIY public service
campaign. I've been promoting
[https://twitter.com/simpleoptout/status/1191029269691957249](https://twitter.com/simpleoptout/status/1191029269691957249)
and other tweets to followers of Samsung's Twitter accounts.)

------
djsumdog
There are a number of gaming TVs coming out that are essentially big monitors
with high refresh rates. They're expensive, but they don't have Ethernet
ports, or built in apps or any of that bullshit.

I've never connected a TV to Ethernet/Wifi and I don't understand people who
have those fucking Amazon/Google/Apple spy devices (aka digital assistants) in
their homes. I disable all that shit on my phone too.

~~~
developerdylan
Any good recommendations?

~~~
djsumdog
Linus Tech Tips did a review of this one:

[https://www.nvidia.com/en-us/geforce/products/big-format-
gam...](https://www.nvidia.com/en-us/geforce/products/big-format-gaming-
displays/)

..but in a recent review he actually recommend a high refresh rate LG over it
due to price. There might be others too.

------
3guk
I've listed all of the Telemetry servers that I could find my set connecting
to should any of you wish to block them on your local network.
[https://factory-reset.com/wiki/Samsung_Telemetry_Servers](https://factory-
reset.com/wiki/Samsung_Telemetry_Servers)

If you guys notice any others, let me know and I can update the list.

------
nabla9
If only there was good guy ISP service that would maintain blocking list for
these and all tracking tools so that even clueless people are safe.

~~~
Eikon
They would be sued to hell as the role of an isp is not to be a regulator of
what a company can and can not do.

~~~
nabla9
It could be sold as security feature for additional $1 per year.

~~~
RandomBacon
Try $5 a month. $2.99 if you're lucky.

I'm surprised ISPs aren't providing this service already. Just run a virtual
PiHole for your customers.

~~~
o-__-o
Most ISPs are also content providers, so they may not be able to based on
contract agreements they have (e.g. to get the nbc app preinstalled on a roku,
they cannot block xyz domains on any of their corporate networks)

------
spullara
When we were developing Yahoo TV, which ended up being deployed on a bunch of
"smart" TVs for a while one of the things we struggled with was "what are
people going to do with this?" First thing that came to mind for me was, "look
up the show on imdb.com". One huge issue though was that the TV basically
didn't know what was on — the connected devices don't transmit that
information. So we started thinking about a database of shows & movies so that
we could identify what was on (using audio and video) when someone wanted to
find out more about it. Amusingly, we were thinking about user convenience and
not about advertising at all. I don't think Yahoo ever shipped that but I am
not surprised it exists.

------
chrisfinazzo
Apologies as the thread is long, but has anyone mentioned Vizio's creepy ACR
tactics yet and how they got sued into submission?

I got a one for the bedroom about a year ago and although it was priced well
for a 4K set, I had already heard about their adventures in getting viewing
data on the sly and turned all that crap off as soon as I was able to do so.

Sounds like Samsung may well be trending in that direction.

We just bought a Q80 to go in our renovated basement and I'm starting to think
about all of the small tweaks I'll need to make in order to minimize the data
it collects.

Hard wired w/ Cat 6, Pi-Hole the ad servers, etc.

------
kawsper
Washington Post had an article about this here:
[https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2019/09/18/you-
wat...](https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2019/09/18/you-watch-tv-
your-tv-watches-back/) it was also discussed on HN here:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21657930](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21657930)

------
jerrac
Is this the sections the OP is referring to with their link title?

> Your TV viewing history includes information about the networks, channels,
> websites visited and programs viewed on your Smart TV and the amount of time
> spent viewing them. We may use automatic content recognition (ACR) and other
> technologies to capture this information. Your Smart TV transfers video
> snippets or TV tuner information in order to determine the programs watched.

~~~
aritmo
Yes, this is the section.

The Smart TV has many inputs, including PC input (if you connect with your
computer), Camera input (to watch the photos you took with your camera),
Chromecast streaming from your phone.

The wording in this section syas that any of these are fair play to be sent
over to the manufacturer for recognition purposes.

------
Trias11
>>>Samsung Electronics Co., Ltd., along with our affiliates and subsidiaries,
(collectively, “Samsung”) knows how important privacy is to our customers.

Translated:

Samsung spits in the face of customers and will do everything in it's power to
monetize users private information without compensating users in any way,
shape or form.

------
3guk
I've actually been researching this a little bit more using some of the test
sets that I have, and it seems that there might be a way to disable some of
these features through the service menu.

If you enable the service mode / service menu of the set: [https://factory-
reset.com/wiki/Samsung_Service_Menu](https://factory-
reset.com/wiki/Samsung_Service_Menu) \- then navigate to the "Control" sub
menu, disable the following settings:

Voice Recognition OFF, Network Support NONE, BT Support OFF, Samsung Smart
Control OFF

With the "Network Support" in particular it seems to disable all internet
related settings on the TV.

It seems that in some cases this is in the "extended service menu" for which
you will need a special remote to access.

------
hindsightbias
Would this cover using your TV as a monitor only? Theoretically, the monitor
could recognize/screenshot your wifi/account setup information (presuming
passwords weren’t *-out), do recognition on it, and then log itself into your
wifi while pretending to be a dumb monitor.

------
nemoniac
So why isn't there a market for open source TVs? Wouldn't that make sense?

Or is it a similar story to printers?

------
myrandomcomment
My Samsung TVs are not connected to the internet. I have never even run the
“setup” on them as it turns out you can name inputs and change video settings
without excepting any terms. Also before someone post “they look for open
WiFi” again it would be great to have proof of that statement that has been
made 100 times. Anyway, I was thinking about the screenshots. I wonder what
happens if it could not ID the program? Does a human review? It would be a
blast to take some shots of Samsung executives and family members and do some
deep fake work on them, maybe including Kim Jong Un and some North Korea
propaganda broadcast. Except all the terms, hook up to the internet and play
the fakes and the propaganda for a month at a time. Just saying..

~~~
rvp-x
My TV has an obnoxious full volume boot sound unless you connect it to the
internet :-/

------
nine_k
Good thing large computer monitors are still a thing, and seem to do well.

I don't have a single proper TV in my house, because nobody needs them. We can
consume whatever video streams we care about via the internet, using computers
that I reasonably control.

Not an option for non-IT people, though, alas.

------
visarga
Will Samsung take screenshots even when it runs as a dumb monitor on HDMI or
Display Port?

~~~
Tempest1981
I'm sure they would find value in doing so. To understand what you watch on
your set-top boxes (cable TV, Amazon/Google/Roku/AppleTV)

------
Thorentis
Well, that just justifies my decision to never buy a TV. Yes yes, I own a
smartphone already. But I've tried to lock it down as much as possible by
deactivating some services, limiting which apps I install. There will always
be _some_ tracking if you own a phone by the carrier anyway.

But TV's are becoming a whole other thing. I also just hate free-to-air TV,
hate having a black void in the living room begging to be switched on, and I
hate the effect it has on kids. A projector that only comes out on special
movie nights is more than enough. And a laptop to watch Netflix or something
with my wife is better than having a TV.

------
drclau
We are beyond fighting this with technical solutions. This can only be
properly fixed via regulations and laws. Unless it can be proven that certain
information is required for the product to function, it should not be
collected. If it is required, it should only be stored for as long as
technically necessary.

I am not familiar with the details of GDPR. Does it help in this particular
case?

------
maxmax
Roku has been doing that forever, and now all those cheap TCL TVs are doing it
too. Keep this in mind, especially if you use one of these in a productivity
context.

[https://docs.roku.com/published/userprivacypolicy/en/us](https://docs.roku.com/published/userprivacypolicy/en/us)

[https://test.tcl.com/eu/en/privacy-notices-smart-tv-
services...](https://test.tcl.com/eu/en/privacy-notices-smart-tv-
services.html)

------
dep_b
This is why you pay more for a Dumb monitor than a Smart TV. The monitor has
no avenues to sell your data so all cost and profit needs to be extracted from
the consumer through the sales price.

~~~
MisterTea
Is that really the reason though? I highly doubt they would lower prices
because they are compensated by selling our privacy down the river. Mining
data is extracting more value, why lower your profits?

Before the advent of the smart TV, bumb TV's have always been cheaper than
commercial displays or monitors of similar screen spec. The commercial
offerings have things like rs232 control, sdi video for long runs, and other
features to allow them to be remotely controlled for signage and kiosk use.
The dumb TV went away because we're knee deep in cheap SoC's that can both
control the TV portion and run hulu and netflix. No boxes, wires or cables. No
separate remotes. Digital convenience, aka "faux luxury", is the drug of
choice nowadays.

------
the8472
Note that this is also in the UK privacy policy[0]

 _> We may use automatic content recognition (ACR) and other technologies to
capture this information. Your Smart TV transfers video snippets or TV tuner
information in order to determine the programs watched._

And in the german one[1], which is just a translation

 _> Wir können zur Erhebung dieser Daten die automatische Inhaltserkennung
(ACR) und andere Technologien verwenden. Ihr Smart TV ermöglicht die
Bestimmung der gesehenen Programme durch Übermittlung von Audio- und Video-
Ausschnitten bzw. von Informationen vom TV-Tuner._

I doubt that this is defensible under GDPR.

[0]
[https://www.samsung.com/uk/info/privacy/](https://www.samsung.com/uk/info/privacy/)
[1]
[https://www.samsung.com/de/info/privacy/](https://www.samsung.com/de/info/privacy/)

------
wonderhamster
I work on this technology(not for Samsung), they do not upload the
screenshots. They upload a cryptographic hash of the image and match it to
known content. Also, this is true of nearly every smart TV available for
purchase and quickly being integrated into projectors. If you want to turn off
the functionality, you will have to go through the feature sets of the
devices.

------
deogeo
> Your Smart TV transfers video snippets or TV tuner information in order to
> determine the programs watched.

Can this upload screenshots even if you use the TV as a mere monitor?

~~~
aritmo
The wording of the privacy policy does not preclude getting video snippets
from the PC input. Unless the wording changes, it can be assummed that it can
be affected as well.

~~~
deogeo
I suppose if I film a sex tape and watch it on a Samsung TV, it will upload
images from that as well.

------
lpgauth
Samsung Smart TVs do not take screenshots as far as I know. They do audio and
video fingerprinting. It would be way too costly and inificient to upload
screenshots for content recognition
([https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automatic_content_recognitio...](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automatic_content_recognition)).

Disclaimer: I work for Samsung, but not directly in the TV software.

~~~
mkarliner
So, they do video fingerprinting? To me, that means that they can identify
what you are watching, which I think is what the OP was pointing out,
regardless of mechanism. Mike (ex-CTO Shazam)

------
Zelphyr
My Vizio that I’ve had for years recently popped up an “opt in” that asked me
to allow them to track my usage. Except it wasn’t opt in at all. I couldn’t
use any of their services if I didn’t agree to let them track me.

So I promptly did a factory reset and now we use the AppleTV exclusively with
that TV.

It is not only the last Vizio product I’ll ever own but I’ll go out of my way
to find a dumb tv the next time I need one, if such a thing exists by then.

------
deepsand
There was a good conversation about this on HN a few months ago [1].

Has anyone successfully blocked unnecessary outbound traffic from their smart
TV using a firewall such as pfsense? Whilst maintaining usability. A separate
VLAN for IoT devices seems like a good first step.

[1]
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21002745](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21002745)

------
thelittleone
If some dystopian scifi author described in a book 30 years ago what is
actually happening today regarding the points of consumer data collection
they’d likely be laughed at.

The programmatic elimination of any expectation of consumer privacy.

Thank fluky we have heroes doing open source projects. Yet open source
hardware alternatives remain quite limited or non existent.

Can anyone suggest meaningful ways to contribute?

------
ferros
> We offer you certain choices in connection with the personal information we
> obtain about you through the IBA Service. You can opt out of receiving
> interest-based ads from the IBA Service on your Samsung Smart TV at any time
> through your Smart TV settings menu, at Menu > Support > Terms & Policy or
> Menu > Smart Hub > Terms & Policy.

------
cityzen
I have my samsung spy device blocked at the router. Always amazed at the level
of bullshit consumers have to put up with.

------
asiachick
I think I wish there was a fine per customer per data item when a data leak
happens. That it was 3x if it is discovered the company didn't report it in a
timely manner and that it was high enough that companies would be reluctant to
collect the data in the first place.

not sure what unintended consequences there would be.

------
A4ET8a8uTh0
I initially thought it is anti-piracy measure, but then I slowly recognized
that I live in a world where my proclivities are captured, measured, and then
sold to whoever thinks they call sell me stuff. I never thought I would say
it, I liked previous regime better. At least there was a clear distinction.

------
Scoundreller
So uhhhhh, my Samsung TV got stolen, can I compel them to cough up information
leading to its current location?

------
rambojazz
Where does it say "screenshot"?

~~~
matthew-wegner
"Your Smart TV transfers video snippets or TV tuner information in order to
determine the programs watched"

------
ptcampbell
Not trying to downplay Samsung's sinister behavior, but could you just not
connect it to the internet?

I was recently shopping for TVs and found it impossible to find a model I
liked without this kind of stuff baked in.

Then you could plug your Apple TV, Xbox, Chromecast or what-have-you and avoid
being tracked — oh wait...

------
Cougher
Interesting. So say a couple likes to take nude photos . . . Samsung reserves
the right to collect and use those photos if you store them on "your" tv. So
you decide that you won't store them there to be "safe", but Samsung can take
a screenshot of them anyway?

------
partiallypro
For my last TV I intentionally tries to find a non-Smart TV, in part because
of the privacy stuff, but also it always is in your face about wanting you to
use the SmartTV features. Unfortunately Samsung and LG really have no
competition on the higher end of the spectrum anymore.

------
mikeiz404
Relevant sections:

> Viewing Information Services

> ...

> Your TV viewing history includes information about the networks, channels,
> websites visited and programs viewed on your Smart TV and the amount of time
> spent viewing them. We may use automatic content recognition (ACR) and other
> technologies to capture this information. Your Smart TV transfers video
> snippets or TV tuner information in order to determine the programs watched.

> You may change your privacy choice at any time by going to the settings menu
> to disable the particular feature or service at your sole discretion, in
> which case your TV viewing history will cease to be collected for that
> particular feature or service.

> Bear in mind that your privacy choice may affect the availability or quality
> of the specific viewing information based service.

> Interest-Based Advertisement Services

> ...

> In order to make the advertising on your devices more relevant to you, the
> IBA service will rely on your TV viewing history (including information
> about the networks, channels, websites visited, and programs viewed on your
> Samsung Smart TV and the amount of time spent viewing them), Samsung Smart
> TV usage information, and other statistical data obtained from trusted third
> party data sources. We may use automatic content recognition (ACR) and other
> technologies to capture your TV viewing history.

> Based on the information above we create groups of Samsung Smart TV owners
> who share similar interests and use these groups for the IBA Service. The
> information above is used to determine the groups to which your Samsung
> Smart TV is assigned and thus, which advertisements your devices receive.

> You may disable the IBA Service at any time by visiting the Settings menu on
> your Samsung Smart TV.

> PSID

> Your Smart TV viewing history and usage information collected for the
> purposes of providing interest based advertisements will be linked to a
> randomized, non-persistent, and resettable device identifier called the
> Personalized Service ID or “PSID”.

> You may reset your PSID at any time by visiting the Settings menu on your
> Smart TV and, once reset, your Smart TV viewing history and Smart TV usage
> information with respect to interest based advertisements will be de-linked
> from its previous PSID. Bear in mind that if you reset your PSID, the
> quality of customized and interest based advertisements may not be fine-
> tuned.

------
zhsvszkvx
Is it possible to open the TVs and snip snip the wifi/LTE/5G module/antenna?

I guess the antenna is hard to snip in 5G since it’s probably part of the
circuit board.

Are the modules entirely on the cpu chip?

Is it possible to screw up the timing (say replacing the crystals) w/out
breaking something else?

------
xphilter
This is not new. It’s been embedded in tvs for years. You can thank judges who
don’t care about consumer privacy and mandatory arbitration clauses for the
spreading of this junk. If consumers could sue these companies none of this
would be happening.

------
nivenhuh
I join my smart* devices to my network, then add a policy to block all of
their traffic on my eero router.

Not sure if this is good practice or not — I remember something about there
being an attack vector for devices not on a network. Started doing this since.

------
ecmascript
This is one of the big reasons I bought a projector instead of a large tv.
Because all the large(r) TVs came with "smart" crapware in them.

I just need a HDMI port. Please. Let there be options for us that's not only a
friggin' projector.

------
spydum
The days are coming where STBs and TV's can do Direct Ad Insertion right on
top of your existing video stream, either augmenting or outright replacing
other advertisers content. Going to be super interesting..

------
wurst_case
I occasionally use my Samsung tv as a second screen. I can't be sure but I may
have had my banking information on screen. Does this mean they are keeping
screenshots of that too? Isn't that unlawful?

------
ReptileMan
My girlfriend asked why I carry a gun around the house?

I looked her dead in the eye and said, "the motherfucking Decepticons". She
laughed, I laughed, the toaster laughed, I shot the toaster, it was a good
time.

------
alistproducer2
I use Pihole and block all my appliances and other traffic I deem unusual or
unnecessary. Its also very useful forensically if I suspect shenanigans on my
network. I recommend it to everyone.

------
thdrdt
It is possible to post to a Samsung endpoint so we can help them gather data?

This is why I never connect my TV to the internet and made it 'smart' via the
HDMI input.

Next step is to rebuild my house as Faraday cage.

------
alt_f4
Ha, if this disturbs you, wait to see what's going to happen when we perfect
under display cameras. Your TV may be watching you, just as much as you're
watching it.

------
ironschool
Surprisingly, why are we talking about TVs only? It says they can collect
photos stored on the device (including phones I guess), isn't that the the
prime crime?

------
andymoe
I connect my smart tv to my internet connection and then explicitly block it
at the router. (Easy to do with eero - yes yes amazon gets my Mac addresses
etc though)

------
daveheq
Just don't buy a smart tv, don't connect it to internet, cover its camera, and
disable its microphone if possible.

These things are cyberdystopic surveillance devices

------
xtat
Lets say you work with private data such as something under HIPAA- does the
liability fall to you for buying one of these or could you go after Samsung?

------
Trias11
What if _all_ Samsung appliance buyers will buy and then return Samsung
appliances back to store because of unacceptable data collection policy?

------
Uhhrrr
Hm, I was pinged by a company (samba.tv) earlier in the year which does
exactly this for a number of TV models. They claimed it was always opt-in.

------
joeblau
If you buy a smart TV, disable these features, disable network connectivity,
and then plug in another 3rd party box you should be fine right?

~~~
ThrowawayR2
Unlikely, because the third-party box probably uploads screenshots or does
something equally noxious as well, if not today, then in the not-too-distant
future.

~~~
hyperbovine
I was kinda hoping Apple TV would adopt a more privacy-forward stance. No?

~~~
ThrowawayR2
Maybe? Depends on whether some Apple exec ever decides they need the revenue
or not. For comparison, even Google's "Don't be evil" reputation only lasted
about a decade or so.

~~~
colejohnson66
Google depends on data to make money while Apple doesn’t. They make their
money from the hardware.

~~~
ThrowawayR2
Sure, Apple makes most of their money from the hardware, currently. When times
get tough for Apple and they're in a situation where they need to look for
more revenue (remember the MS bailout back in '97?), well, we'll see...

------
qmmmur
I pihole on my local network and samsung is the biggest blocked domain on my
list with the default block lists. It's INSANE.

------
danmg
If you just point out that it would ID what types of porn you ware watching,
it would make enough buyers opt out.

------
lancewiggs
The simple answer for any new TV, as Samsung is not at all alone here, is to
never connect it to the internet.

------
macawfish
Just another of many reasons to push back against 5G. Enabling this kind of
crap is an end goal of 5G.

------
acd
Can we stop calling these things smart. What is smart about devices sharing
user data with companies?

~~~
userbinator
They're smart enough to be rebellious...

------
m3kw9
If they are gonna do that Lowe th price significantly, let us choose to get
screwed or not

------
geophile
Could something like pi hole fix this problem, without disabling services such
as Netflix?

------
toddmorey
Would love seeing the materials Samsung uses to market this “feature” to their
partners.

------
isoprophlex
And because these things will connect to any open WiFi network, you have to
open them up and work over the networking components with a Dremel. Only then
can you be really sure it doesn't fuck you over.

My Samsung asshole tv started showing banner ads overlayed on hdmi signals,
already in... 2017 or so?

Fuck these practices.

------
dbg31415
What DNS settings do I need to change to block this shit?

Covered under default Pi-hole settings?

------
techbio
Is there a Raspbian + dumb (non-monitoring) monitor that’s smarter?

------
scottmcleod
Spoiler alert most TV's in the US already sell this data..

------
dburenok
The solution is simple. Stop watching TV and read lol

------
tqi
Are they uploading screenshots or hashes?

------
NewEntryHN
Not sure if it's available to everybody or just Europeans, but there is a
checkbox to disable it (I don't remember whether it's checked by default or
not).

Settings -> Support -> Terms & Policies -> disable "Viewing Information
Services" (there is detailed information about what this checkbox entails, and
it includes using ACR on screenshots)

Could be a placebo button of course, but that would be a pretty big violation
of GDPR and a risk for a huge fine.

------
mensetmanusman
That’s why we use projectors.

------
cascom
Who offers a non-abusive tv?

------
plg
not if I don't connect the damn thing to my network ... right?

------
ddingus
Which TV's?

------
3ds
TLDR: the page says: "Your Smart TV transfers video snippets or TV tuner
information in order to determine the programs watched."

------
Lutzb
As soon as 5G is widely available, TV manufacturers will most definitely
include a modem in each set. A GDPR style regulation is needed.

------
husamia
privacy is dead!

------
tus88
Truly WTF.

------
egdod
You can disable this feature, but of course you have to trust the manufacturer
that it’s actually disabled. And if the manufacturer were trustworthy, they
wouldn’t be doing things like this to begin with.

~~~
blackhaz
We need something to firewall the Internets from our too-smart house stuff!
Something like an inverse firewall. A waterwall.

~~~
JadeNB
Blocking unwanted egress is already accepted as possibly part of the
functionality of a firewall (see, e.g.,
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egress_filtering](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egress_filtering)
); there's nothing inherently 'reverse' about it. Indeed, note the symmetry in
Wikipedia's definition of a firewall
([https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firewall_(computing)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firewall_\(computing\))
):

> In computing, a firewall is a network security system that monitors and
> controls incoming and outgoing network traffic based on predetermined
> security rules. A firewall typically establishes a barrier between a trusted
> internal network and untrusted external network, such as the Internet.

~~~
blackhaz
I was trying to joke here. The untrusted network in our case is the internal
network. In that sense.

~~~
JadeNB
> I was trying to joke here. The untrusted network in our case is the internal
> network. In that sense.

Sure, and I'm sorry to miss the joke; but I think that it's nothing new that
the internal network is untrusted. Before one ever had connected and untrusted
smart appliances, one still had untrusted _software_ running on one's general-
purpose computer, and it was (and remains) often desireable to fence off that
software from the outside world. Little Snitch
([https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_Snitch](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_Snitch)),
for example, was designed around exactly that idea.

------
suff
Fortunately, you can specify your own DNS to point at a black hole proxy like:
[https://pi-hole.net](https://pi-hole.net)

~~~
reaperducer
Or you could just not connect your TV to your internet connection.

~~~
Pulcinella
I imagine the thinking is that if the TV is not connected to any WiFi, it
might try to connect to something public or non-password protected neighbornet
so it’s better to connect it to something non-functional rather than
unconnected. Of course, the TV could just lie about what it’s doing anyway...

~~~
Twinklebreeze
I wish there were more dumb TVs on the market. What kind of dystopian market
is it where you can't even trust an appliance you own to not spy on you.

~~~
reaperducer
I think it's because the phrase, "None of your business" has fallen out of
common use.

I would hear that all the time when I was a kid. I don't think I've heard it
in public in decades. Or maybe I was just a nosy kid.

------
samstave
This has been a reality for years.

I can't tell you how I know this - but I can tell you it has been a fact for
more than five years.

------
Koshkin
Not sure what the problem is. The user consents to this by saying 'yes' when
they are asked if they agree with the Terms and Conditions.

~~~
Macha
It's hard to argue a click through agreement presented after they already
bought the TV represents informed consent.

I know rejecting it on my Samsung TV just reset the wizard

