
Ask HN: Seemingly unable to recover from burnout. Please advise - 19032019_anon
 Dear HN,
Writing this post has been difficult for me. It has been months of procrastination before I’ve been able to put “pen to paper” on this.<p>tl;dr. I am suffering from what appears to be extreme burnout from programming&#x2F;working at a startup. Half a year of “time off” has done little to repair me. I seek advice on how to get my life back on track and move forward.<p>I cut out of a ton of details in order to make this post as short as possible. Even so, it is a bit lengthy. It is about 4,000 characters, which is over the HN limit of 2,000. I have the full text pasted here. https:&#x2F;&#x2F;pastebin.com&#x2F;0kx5jfrK It is a short read. Definitely under five minutes. Thank you for reading it.<p>Let me preemptively respond to some possible suggestions: 1) Exercise. I’ve been exercising daily and eating healthy for years now (well before X). That’s not my issue. 2) Travel. I have been traveling more with my time off, both international and domestic. While I enjoy it, it doesn’t seem to have changed much my outlook on my day-to-day life. 3) Therapy. I went to a therapist for a year or two while I was working at X. I don’t know how much it helped, if at all. It has been about a year since I’ve been back.<p>Thank you, HN.
======
jf22
What helped me un-burn myself was focusing on creating as many serendipitously
boring moments as possible.

I canceled all pre-made plans, stopped pursuing any goal outside of existing,
and did things because I was bored and felt like doing them.

Our culture is 110% fail-forward, goal-oriented, growth-mindset madness that
doesn't give us time to relax and chill out.

I'm not talking about pursuing a hedonistic lifestyle nor walking into the
woods and being a hermit.

Get a dumb job, go to work, go home, do whatever. Meet with friends if you
want too, go out if you want too, but stop all forms of external pressure and
just exist.

I remember eventually I was sitting around with nothing to do and spent an
hour dreaming about dragons and then went for a walk around the block because
I got tired of sitting.

Avoid anti-stagnation gamification bs that only exists to make money like
meditation apps or fitness trackers. Just be.

As you said, people are going to tell you to sign up for a "prescription" like
traveling more or exercising but that is just more of a burden to an already
burned out person.

Travel or exercise if you want but do it because you want too not because it's
on some path to a better you.

~~~
19032019_anon
Isn't that what I'm more or less doing now? Other than the "dumb job" part?
There is no pressure on me to do anything, really. (Except pressure I put on
myself to exercise once a day) I spend large quantities of my time watching
Netflix/playing video games. Isn't that "just existing"?

~~~
jf22
>I have no passion, motivation, or purpose.

See this is what I mean. Is that bad?

Culturally we are forced to have those things but they aren't necessary.

My grandfather worked at a quarry for 50 years and came home every day to have
dinner, a Budweiser, read a book and maybe tv.

His loved sitting outside and watching birds in the summer but I would never
describe that as his "passion".

Seems boring but he was content and had a happy life.

------
maerF0x0
1\. Sleep like your life depends on it [1]

2\. Exercise both cardio and weight lifting in a really generic way. Go hard
on them if you honestly love either.

3\. Eat the "cleanest" food you can afford. I like Michael Pollan's guide [2].

4\. Get a social network, friends, family, dating. Spend at least 2hrs in a
1:1 scenario with someone you care about and cares about you. Spend at least 4
more hours with as many people who care about you that you like (ie 1:1 if
you're more introverted, or as a group if extroverted etc.)

5\. Live the 40 rules for life [3]

[1]:
[https://web.archive.org/web/20190306123706/https://www.super...](https://web.archive.org/web/20190306123706/https://www.supermemo.com/en/articles/sleep#Summary)

[2]: [https://www.webmd.com/food-recipes/news/20090323/7-rules-
for...](https://www.webmd.com/food-recipes/news/20090323/7-rules-for-eating#1)

[3]: [https://www.quora.com/What-are-the-most-valuable-things-
ever...](https://www.quora.com/What-are-the-most-valuable-things-everyone-
should-know/answer/Jordan-B-Peterson)

------
charlesdm
For me, the single most depressing thing in my life was working for someone
else. I now set my own schedule (and have set) for years, working on my own
products, and live a relaxed life.

Six months is nothing. Everything compounds. Working in a toxic environment
compounds and takes a long time to cleanse. Good things also compound. You
need to find something to work on that makes you happy, suited for your
personality.

I went for a 2 hour walk today. It put my mind at ease.

~~~
RikNieu
That's the dream. I just never seem to be able to come up with products that
actually make enough money to replace my salary though.

~~~
charlesdm
I must add that I live in a lower cost-of-living area. However, it works for
me and I travel frequently.

Unless you're on a SFBay salary, most developers could replace their salary by
doing contracting for 3 to 6 months a year. That's how I started, building my
first product (an app) on the side.

I don't like developing enough anymore to do it full time. I however do have
some specialised skills and will from time to time supplement my product
income with some consulting or contracting if something cool crosses my path.

There are usually also some smaller tax advantages. Being able to tax deduct
your computer, mobile phone, home office, etc, some office furniture helps
with keeping as much of the money you are making.

~~~
RikNieu
I'm in a low-cost area too, so theoretical I just need to make a couple of
thousand dollars a month to make ends meet. That's not as easy as it sounds,
for me at least.

I have an app that will be released soon, hopefully that would bring in some
extra income. Who knows. Will continue slogging on tbough!

------
Hermitian909
The symptoms you describe sound very much like depression.

It's great that you're exercising and eating well, that'll make recovering
from this easier, even if it's not easy. I've got some suggestions based on
all the friends I've seen suffer through this:

I know you went to therapy previously but I think you should consider finding
a new, better therapist. If you are friends with any therapists privately
they're pretty frank about how the wide the skill distribution is inside the
profession.

I would also seriously consider seeing a psychiatrist, some people respond
extremely well to medication and if you're 6 months in that option should be
on the table.

Finally, you don't mention whether your sleep schedule has improved since
leaving X. If it has, great, if not I would advise enforcing a regular sleep
schedule. Set a bedtime before midnight, and a time to wake up. Don't sleep
less than 7 hours, don't sleep more than 9 (too much sleep can be bad for you
as well). If you're having trouble managing this try taking a 2.5mg pill of
melatonin 15 minutes before bed.

I wish you well, and hope things get better.

~~~
19032019_anon
I've considered that. I might be clinically depressed now, but since it's not
nearly as bad as I used to be, I write it off as "I'm fine. I've been much
worse."

I really hate the idea of taking mind-altering medication regularly. I was
diagnosed with ADHD as a child (erroneously, I believe) and took medication
everyday for _years._ A few years ago, I deemed it no way to live and weened
myself off of it.

As a transitionary step, though, I guess I'd be open to it.

Ah, yes. I didn't touch on sleep. It has wavered over the months. It's better
now, but not perfect. Often I sleep more than 8 hours, even though I have
alarms set for 0800 and 0900. I do use melatonin when I have difficulty
falling asleep. I think a lack of a "need" to wake up at a certain time (for
work) induces laziness in me.

~~~
hndamien
Sleep is super important, and maybe vitamin D, 5 HTP. I'd be very cautious of
trying SSRI/ SNRI. The data is weak and mildly disturbing, but also, they
aren't completely useless . or bad. I'd just leave it as a final option.

------
NeedMoreTea
Have you considered finding something a little more substantial?

I can relate to burnout, but the only thing that fixed me was getting some
faith in me and my place in the world once again. Time off and being nice to
myself (I mostly couldn't care less) did nothing. In fact it was worse than
nothing.

No idea where your interests lie, but have you considered some months of
volunteering? There's loads of options like medical service overseas, or for
one of the overseas third world projects, or something environmental - to get
you out amongst the world and environment again, perhaps at a charity or group
restoring some historical artefact - whether machine, IT, steam engine or
building there seem to be lots of places for willing, intelligent volunteers.
Even some weeks at a commune or Buddhist retreat - many of those want
temporary helpers too.

I'm sure you can find something that appeals to the deeper you, and doing
something more concrete should give you a little faith once again. You may
also get a clearer idea of where you want to go next.

------
gtsteve
How is your sleep? I find that eating, exercising and sleeping are the base
activities from which everything else follows. You mentioned the other two but
not sleep.

You mentioned seeing a therapist, but have you taken your symptoms to a
doctor? It is possible that your issues stem from a physical illness as
opposed to a situation.

On the subject of practical advice, I suggest keeping a journal or diary of
your moods and events of the day. I was able to use this to identify triggers
that cause me to enter a depressive unproductive state so perhaps there is
something that might help for you.

~~~
19032019_anon
Sleep answered in a comment above.

No, I haven't been to a doctor. I assume this is all mental. Is it possible
I've developed a chronic, physical illness? What would be an example?

~~~
gtsteve
There are a number of illnesses that can cause the symptoms you are describing
such as ME or Lyme disease. There are also other more dramatic possibilities
that are more unlikely as I assume you are reasonably young.

It is also possible you have developed an illness like depression or
dysthymia. It is possible that the strain of the previous few years has caused
this to manifest somehow.

I also recently read an article about sleep apnea which can cause chronic
fatigue like symptoms. Some people don't know they have it because they don't
store the memories of waking up; often it is their partners who prompt them to
seek medical help. Do you share your bed with anyone? Have they noticed
anything strange about your sleep habit? A sleep study might reveal something
you weren't expecting.

But for sure, the first thing to do is to just talk this over with an actual
doctor and not a computer programmer (me) who likes to read Wikipedia for fun.

------
throw3965
Healthy mind in a healthy body. Eating well and exercising is not enough, you
have to let your brain rest. Working crazy hours for long periods of time will
affect your mental health more than your physical health.

Unfortunately I cannot give you more advice than what worked for me: taking
long walks or going on hikes in nature. And switching jobs to work for a
company that respects my free time.

~~~
throw3965
A friend of mine who was also working at my previous workplace and also burned
out took a job at the post office for a year. They didn’t understand why he
was applying there with his qualifications. He told them he was sick of
intellectual work and just wanted to move boxes from point A to point B all
day long. He was hired. It may sound stupid but it helped him and he’s better
now. I’m not saying you should take a silly job, but doing something simple
that keeps you busy while putting your thoughts in order may help.

~~~
19032019_anon
I've considered that. I've considered applying for a job as an auto mechanic.
I like working with my hands. However, other than basic stuff like changing
oil and spark plugs, I'm relatively uneducated about working on cars.

------
w4tson
Therapy didn’t seem to work. Have you tried Cognitive Behavioral Therapy?

If you have an Audible subscription there is “Cognitive Behavioral Therapy:
techniques for retraining your brain”

You can do it on your own but I think you’d benefit from an actual therapist
as it sounds like you have some deep seated problems. (I know you said it
didn’t work the first time)

There’s a great line at the beginning of the book where the author compares
people to appliances. Appliances have instruction manuals, what to do when
stuff goes wrong. Wouldn’t it be great if the same were true for us humans?
There is no instruction manual. But the techniques in the book are a toolkit
for different situations you may find yourself in. They’re meant to stay with
you.

To me it sounds like you currently have an error code. You’re aware, and
making some steps to address it but you don’t seem to have got any traction

I wish you all the best

------
insomniacity
Sorry to hear your story. I would encourage you to think about why therapy
didn't help.

It can take a few tries to find a therapist that works for you. While you may
feel safe talking to them, it still doesn't mean they're going to be able to
help you in the way that you personally need.

I would look for a new therapist.

~~~
19032019_anon
That seems to be a common theme. I'm not opposed, but my health insurance
situation is...complicated. (What with leaving my job etc) This country's
healthcare system is absurd, but that's a discussion for another thread.

------
spacecowboy
Saw your post earlier today and it left me wondering on how to help. Then I
came across this tonight, thought it might be helpful in some roundabout way.
[https://www.forbes.com/sites/laurashin/2013/05/22/7-steps-
to...](https://www.forbes.com/sites/laurashin/2013/05/22/7-steps-to-
developing-career-capital-and-achieving-success/#18efb9b27a9f)

(edited) I went on to discover this article, I found the comments just as
interesting. [https://lifehacker.com/steve-martins-advice-for-building-
a-c...](https://lifehacker.com/steve-martins-advice-for-building-a-career-you-
love-5947649)

------
derp_dee_derp
Interesting read. It sounds like you lack a "mission" that your startup job
provided, and just any old arbitrary mission can't replace it.

My advice would be to figure out what you want out of life: wife, kids, where
would you live, what would you do, etc. And I don't mean look fir a new job I
mean what do you want to dedicate your life to. Maybe religion, maybe service
work, maybe cocaine and hookers. It's up to you.

Then, figure out a plan on what you need to do to achieve it.

You seem to believe that the point of working is the work itself, but the
reality is that the point of working is to get money so you can fund your
life.

Anyways, you are the only one who can answer what your life goals are and what
you need to do to do them so be honest with yourself when your thinking about
it

~~~
19032019_anon
The problem is, I don't know what I want out of life right now. I like to
drink and party, but that's not a "mission." I would like a wife and children
someday, but not soon. Same thing with home ownership. I don't really know
what I want immediately.

> but the reality is that the point of working is to get money so you can fund
> your life.

When I left X, I got some severance pay. So my life right now is essentially
funded, and I still feel lost.

~~~
mrburton
Sounds like that's a part of your problem. No sense of belonging/purpose. If
you find yourself focusing on "What you want from life" and feel compelled to
get an answer, maybe you need to distract yourself mentally from that and not
force it.

A lot of people mentally struggle when they don't know what they want from
life. It can make you feel "worthless". You end up sleeping late because.. why
get out of bed.I took 2 years off of work and went through all of this. The
answer for me was a) mentally accepting myself and b) find work that I felt
good about. e.g, I did a days worth of work. Yes I'm not changing the world or
solving Null Pointer Exceptions for everyone, but hey.. fuck it. I'm doing
something.

I always remind myself to a) Not judge myself so hard because in 200 years or
less no one will remember me. Thats okay and b) Life is better when you learn
to accept yourself even if you're not gods gift to everyone else..

P.S., Everyone will learn to think of me as an amazing person! I'm just giving
everyone time lol jk

------
ohyes
Is it possible that your addiction to work is a result of something else
missing in your life?

I could possibly rephrase your statement “writing code used to give me a
dopamine rush, it does not anymore, how can I reclaim that?”

I’m sure a part of that was the fantasy of riches, another part was being
young and smart and good at what you do, feeling your worth / worthiness.

A better question might be “how can I find meaning and value in my life?” It’s
an important question that you could literally spend your life ruminating on.
I nor anyone here can answer that for you.

My first direction would be to make a list of things that you like doing, and
to make sure you do them regularly.

From there, search for things that can keep you fed and in housing / clothes,
and achieve other goals that you have personally.

~~~
19032019_anon
Something else missing in my life? Possibly. Well, in university, it
definitely was. I _hated_ (and I still do to some extent) the whole high
school/university/9-5 career pipeline. I wanted nothing to do with FANG etc. I
saw X as my "way out." My light at the end of the tunnel. My escape from the
rat race that I so vehemently opposed.

------
mrburton
You need to re-program yourself. It's hared when you program yourself to keep
pushing, improving, growing etc and then you start feeling like you're always
at rock bottom.

You might need to learn how to accept what you are and be comfortable and
fully aware you're not going to be great. I had to learn how to just accept..
well me. Who I am and all my failures, waisted efforts with no "growth".

What have I done to reprogram myself? I go to a coffee shop and just read a
book that is not tech related. I write in my book about what "depresses" me
about myself. e.g, confronting my ego head on. I sit outside in a park
listening to music like a crazy person the call my mom; which I do daily.

Feel free to email me at my user name followed by gee mail.

------
bdibs
Try finding a hobby that you enjoy that isn't related to tech. I personally
find woodworking and knife making to be a fantastic escape from staring at a
screen all day.

------
wrestlerman
I don't know much how to help. I'm sorry. I have one idea though. Maybe find a
temporary work in some other industry? Something new could spark a new
passion? Even a job like a waiter/ress, taxi driver could bring a new look at
life.

I think that interacting with other people could help. IT is very specific
workplace, especially, startups, in my opinion.

------
santa_boy
Many of the comments mentioned previously help and do make sense. However, I'd
like to add .... find a good partner who can relate to you and hopefully not
judge you. It can be a romantic involvement, a friend, a family member. Self-
evaluation and self-prioritization of activities important for you is
important and can be very helpful.

------
marxfits
Write a diary and make yourself your own therapist.

Apart from daily writing, my own philosophy to life is to move very slowly and
concentrate on the minutiae of everyday existence. There is joy in the
patterns of the gravel.

Lastly, I would say study | create simply for the act in itself. This goes
hand in hand with the writing, and the appreciation of the mundane.

------
Dowwie
You could contact the American Red Cross and volunteer for disaster response.
I volunteered for a month with them after hurricane Katrina hit Louisiana.
International assignments are an option but require long term (multiple
months) time commitments but it seems like you might be available for that.

Helping others will help you heal yourself.

------
mythrwy
Find purpose.

If you can't, get yourself in a situation where purpose is immediate.

The problem with programming is that it is opposite of actual life itself.
Everything reduced to symbols. Everything abstracted. Which is all beautiful
in a synthetic way, but it has to tie back into a larger purpose for living or
it's all no good for anything.

------
alexcnwy
I found a combination of these Ayurvedic herbal supplements taken in the
morning before food to be beneficial (do your own research / I am not a doctor
/ etc): 1\. Ashwagandha 2\. Gotu Kola 3\. Bacopa

I’d also recommend considering a micro vacation to somewhere with a spa and
just relax in some hot springs for a couple days.

Also exercise!

------
akeck
In addition to others' suggestions, you might look into getting a dog. For me,
my rescue dog puts a floor on my stress and its side effects, since I need to
walk her quite a bit and she likes to "take care of me" in her own ways.

------
uxcolumbo
Work with animals.

There are so many shelters that need help, like dog walking etc. and the dogs
will love you for it.

------
lvturner
TL;DR Good luck, give it time, stay busy

It took me nearly two years after a ‘startup’ I was working at collapsed and I
realised I was burned out until I was ready to consider writing code as a
dayjob again.

I was in a comfortable position, but didn’t really have the luxury of being
able to do extended travel, so got back in to work as quickly as I could
(mostly technical salss and consultancy type role - wasn’t really ‘me’ but it
helped me recover - there’s something to be said for keeping bisy - and taught
me a few new skills along the way)

I’m now back to programming basically every day and loving it - but it was a
long road.

------
in15minutes
From what you write, you need to start your own company/product. Find
something YOU really passionate about and something YOU want to work hard on.

------
saluki
As far as working, I think you might be happier doing your own thing. If you
have some runway I would look at starting your own company.

It sounds like you might be happy with a lifestyle business.

Inspiration: @DHH Startup School Talk (2008) it's still relevant and a great
talk. Lots of great quotes in this one.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0CDXJ6bMkMY](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0CDXJ6bMkMY)

StartUpsForTheRestOfUs.com is a great podcast, start in the archives. You can
follow Rob along from starting out with job board sites, he even mentions drop
shipping beach towels, to an invoicing app to an SEO SaaS app, to founding
Drip all the way through to a nice exit. Inspirational and sound advice along
the way.

Check those out, that might be your path to a job you can be happy with.

I enjoy work and you have to make a living but there is more to life. Family,
friends, pets, volunteering, mentoring, helping others. These might bring a
new perspective of work time vs personal time and give you things to look
forward to outside of work.

Reach out and find a mentor/group/mastermind to help guide you through this
time.

Take care and good luck.

------
mikekchar
I'll give you my recipe. I have a recipe because I've burnt myself out a
couple of times in my career. Not the best thing to do, but I like to work and
sometimes in pursuing one's passion one over does it.

1\. Forgive yourself. You worked hard. You made a couple of less than optimal
moves. It happens to the best of us. You may not realise it, but often people
feel "stupid" or "weak" for having gotten into the burn out situation. Give
yourself a break. Also realise: it's likely to happen again because
enthusiastic people get themselves into this situation. Don't fear it. Accept
who you are and work within your own nature.

2\. Forgive others. I wrote a fantastical piece on this a long time ago:
[http://mikekchar.github.io/portfolio//UsefulAndBeneficial](http://mikekchar.github.io/portfolio//UsefulAndBeneficial)
(It's surprisingly short for something written by me). TL;DR: People strive to
be useful and then complain when they are used. Instead do what you do because
it is in your nature to do it and maneuver yourself into a place where this
provides benefit for others. It's easy to blame others for the situation you
are in because they selfishly accept everything you give them. They may even
selfishly _ask_ for things that you give them. However, give them a break.
It's fine if people ask for things, even if they are selfish. The key is
learning how to break out of the "useful" mould.

3.Find out why you are a programmer. I can't actually give you good advice
here because I don't know why you are a programmer. I can tell you that I
never wanted to be a programmer. I wanted to be an author. But then my parents
(wisely, I suppose ;-) ) suggested that the job of "author" is not very
secure. So I picked my second best thing, which was programming. And then for
at least the next 20 years I did my best to find a way to quit from that job.
However, I kept getting sucked back in. I thought I was cursed. And then I
realised it: I love programming. That's why I do it. Even when I don't have to
program, I'm programming. My curse is that I love it, which is why I can never
break free from it. See: you aren't the most screwed up person in this
conversation! But anyway, you are a programmer for a reason. You might not
realise what that reason is. Your reason is probably not the same as my
reason. However, without knowing what your reason is, it will be hard to
continue. If you suspect (which I bet that you do) that you don't actually
have a reason to be a programmer, then try something else. Work at
MacDonald's. Do whatever. It doesn't matter. You'll figure out pretty quickly
why you are a programmer.

4\. Write code. Write code every day. Start small. I like doing pomodoros. If
you can only do one pomodoro a day, then only do one pomodoro a day. Try to do
2 some days and eventually you will be able to do 2. Keep trying to do more
pomodoros. Or whatever measurement of work floats your boat. But write code.
Every day.

And that is it. I'll be honest, though. I think you are suffering from more
than burn out. Depression can happen as a result of burnout, but thoughts of
suicide, etc are pretty worrying. You may have an underlying health condition
that needs treatment. I recommend continuing to see the relevant health
professionals and getting whatever treatment you can. I know lots of people
with mental health problems. It's important to understand that this is a
_health_ issue. In the case of thoughts of suicide, it's a potentially fatal
health issue and should be treated just the same as a heart condition, for
example. Our science sucks for these kinds of health issues, but it's getting
better over time. Many of my friends have had really good success and there is
no reason to believe that you won't have similar success. It might take some
time, though.

I hope that's helpful! It's always hard to give good advice on this kind of
issue because it depends so much on the individual. Just try to keep a
positive outlook. Belief is more than half the battle.

