
Google pushed to take action against Android bloatware - pjmlp
https://ww.9to5google.com/2020/01/11/android-bloatware-privacy-open-letter/
======
wpietri
Does anybody understand the economic point of making apps nonremovable? From
the point of view of a vendor paying for access, presumably their goal is to
spark interest and shift default choices. So I get why LinkedIn would pay to
be on the phone when it leaves the factory. But if somebody doesn't want it,
what do they gain by preventing removal?

To me it seems kinda like DRM: I'm sure some executives get woodies at the
thought of having power over users. But I really doubt that it's an
economically rational activity.

~~~
at-fates-hands
The interesting thing I always found with Windows phones was how easy it was
to remove any and all bloatware on their phones.

Don't the One Plus and Android One phones come pretty clean with only a few
Google apps on them?

~~~
jfengel
Yeah, and they start in the $300+ range. The others are paid for unremovable
bloatware, which lets them come in at a lower price point.

The Xiaomi Android One line does manage to price in the $150 range without
bloatware, and I'm not sure how.

~~~
goguy
Chinese spyware that doesn't even show as an "app"

~~~
ShorsHammer
You have any proof whatsoever for that or just a general uninformed guess?

I have an A1 and have logged it's network requests all day for fun. There's
absolutely nothing remotely resembling "spyware". Compared to prolific
unremovable bloat than many premium phones have it's an excellent phone. Ended
up buying another for safekeeping if something ever goes wrong with it.

Android One, monthly security updates, official bootlock unloader, some of the
best LineageOS support around. Compared to nearly everything else on the
market (besides Pixels or Nokias) it's an absolute joy to actually have
control over my phone.

~~~
throwaway41597
Not proof, but my Xiaomi A3 (Android One) European version has a couple of
China Mobile packages and what I suspect is China Telecom.

It also has com.wapi.wapicertmanage, WAPI as in World Association of
Professional Investigators! No idea what it does but from the name, it sounds
it's security related.

Do these belong on an Android One phone? Do these fit with the impression that
most people seem to have about Android One?

~~~
derefr
The WAPI you're looking for is
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WLAN_Authentication_and_Privac...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WLAN_Authentication_and_Privacy_Infrastructure).
Which, AFAICT, would allow the phone to connect to some Chinese wi-fi APs that
were manufactured+configured to use the WAPI encryption standards.

You know how sometimes, cell ISPs ban certain baseband firmwares from
connecting to their network, such that you have to upgrade your phone's
firmware before it can connect? Now what happens if you live in some college
dorm that has only WAPI-configured wi-fi APs? Guess your phone's a brick until
you can find wi-fi somewhere else!

In other words, this is kind of a crucial package for a phone you're going to
be using _in_ China.

(But also, it's government-mandated that phones released in China have WAPI
support.)

~~~
throwaway41597
Thanks, that makes much more sense. I only looked at the domain name matching
the package name. I'd still like to remove it but it feels much less worrying.

------
ahartmetz
Motorola (edit: and Google, Nokia, probably other) phones come without
bloatware - vote with your wallets. (The preinstalled Moto apps are very small
and actually quite useful, like accelerometer-based gestures for quick acces
to camera or flashlight)

I buy phones as a platform for software, so it makes sense to pay attention to
more than the hardware.

~~~
Waterluvian
I got a moto because of this. It has _almost_ no bloatware. LinkedIn,
DropBoxNativeClient, and a few other apps I don't use cannot be uninstalled.

Edit: some others I can't uninstall from my international, unlocked Moto G6:
Google Drive, Duo, Chrome, YouTube,

~~~
ahartmetz
Oh wow. My Moto phones never had anything like that. Moto G3, G5, and One
Vision. Bought in Germany without contract.

Edit: I don't see Google apps as an (additional) problem. Google already
controls the phone and its apps don't waste CPU time or memory while not
active.

~~~
franga2000
> its apps don't waste CPU time or memory while not active The 20% of my
> battery used by Google Play Services, despite the fact that the only Google
> service I use on my phone is YouTube, disagrees

~~~
delecti
Google Play Services is a framework which other apps use. That battery usage
is just imprecisely categorized usage of the other apps you have installed.
Some of those apps might be Google's, but anything that wakes your phone or
uses GPS will end up contributing a bit to that percentage.

------
owenwil
Google actually had a program that addressed this head-on a few years back,
where it retailed 'Google Play Edition' versions of flagship phones like the
Galaxy 7, updated directly from Google, with their own factory image and no
bloatware. For whatever reason, they killed the program without it really
going far or being marketed well, which was a real shame:

[https://www.xda-developers.com/discontinued-a-look-at-
google...](https://www.xda-developers.com/discontinued-a-look-at-google-play-
edition-phones/)

~~~
kwanbix
You have Android One today.

~~~
notatoad
My Android One phone has xiaomi apps installed on the system partition. IIRC,
the google play edition phones did not have any third-party apps.

~~~
eitland
My Nokia Android One had only a support app (visibly) installed.

It was still slow and updates took longer than I wanted to arrive.

I bought the cheapest new iPhone I could get last black Friday (around $600)
and for the first time since my Galaxy SII in 2011 I got a phone that I have
actually enjoyed.

FTR, phones I have _not_ enjoyed:

\- Samsung SIII (two, one was terrible, probably a defect part, luckily it
bricked itself so I got a replacement, the second wasn't terriblę just
disappointing),

\- Note (at least one, can't say for sure which),

\- Sony Z3 (screen detached from body - this might be my fault for
disconnecting the charger half asleep many times, but more importantly
installed Amazon adware during Android upgrade),

\- Samsungs S7 Edge (slow, microlag, generally disappointing)

\- and finally Nokia 6.1 Android One (slow, updates took long time to arrive
even if in was Android One certified, spyware concerns - I'm not sure if mine
was affected.)

~~~
kevin_thibedeau
The Nokia 6.1 camera app phones back to Facebook on every startup even if you
don't have any account with them. Other than not being rootable, it's a
reasonable device.

~~~
eitland
I tried to find out more about the issue where it phones back to Facebook but
wasn't able to in a reasonable time. Do you have pointers?

~~~
kevin_thibedeau
Install NoRootFirewall. You'll see the camera app making Facebook requests on
startup.

------
hadrien01
Most of the bloatware comes from Google itself: on my Samsung Phone I have
Google Chrome, multiple Google Play stores, Google Keep, Google Photos (sends
your photos to the Google cloud), Google Drive, Google office apps, etc.

I've never wanted all those apps, I don't even have a Google account...

~~~
true_religion
I think calling Chrome bloatware is a bit much. Is Safari bloateare on an
iPhone? Is the Play store bloatware?

How would you even get anything on your phone the first time without the Play
store or Chrome being installed?

~~~
hadrien01
Chrome is bloatware when Samsung Internet is a much better browser included
with my phone.

The Play Store is not bloatware. The Play _stores_ are bloatware (books,
games, movies, etc.)

~~~
robbya
Is Samsung Internet better than Chrome? I've always assumed it was bloatware
since it's preinstalled and I haven't heard of people using it. I personally
use the Firefox mobile browser, which I think works great.

~~~
nkurz
I tested about a bunch of browsers on my Samsung phone (including Chrome,
Firefox, Maxthon, Dolphin, Cheetah, Brave, Puffin, Opera, and Yandex), and
eventually decided that the "Samsung Internet Browser Beta" was the best of
them for me:
[https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.sec.androi...](https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.sec.android.app.sbrowser.beta)

My main demands were a browser that had a reliable "reader mode", a black
background "night mode", allowed reasonable ad blocking, and had a full screen
mode with minimal clutter. The Samsung browser isn't perfect, still
occasionally makes me mad, but definitely is worth trying if aren't fully
satisfied with what you are using.

~~~
VistaBrokeMyPC
Dolphin! Man, I haven't heard someone talk about that browser in YEARS.

I used that ten years ago back when the play store was called Android Market
because it had addons and I thought it was the bee's knees. I still rotate
through chrome, chrome canary, Firefox, Firefox focus, opera, and sometimes
nightly builds of Firefox just to see what's getting tinkered with lately.
Firefox still my daily driver though.

------
niffydroid
This will be good for the low end phones. My partner mother had an lg with 8gb
of storage, it came bundled with all sorts of nonsense, 2 calculators, 2
alarms, some office suite. It made installing things like whatsapp or Facebook
hard because of the bloat taking up the space. This only damages the
reputation of these brands for me that do this sort of thing. Skins/ui and
other functions are fine, but at least let me get rid of the junk

~~~
MBCook
That’s the thing that astounds me about buying an android phone. When you buy
an iPhone you get one app from Apple for each task. Because it would be
ridiculous to get more than one.

But if you buy an android phone you might get a copy of Google Chrome. And
some sort of rebadged Samsung browser. And maybe a Sprint browser because you
bought a Sprint phone.

Now repeat that for email. And text messaging. And a couple other things.

It’s crazy. I’m amazed new users can figure out which one to use sometimes.

All because every layer of the supply chain has to add their “customization“.
To add “value“.

~~~
pdimitar
They are adding value alright but it goes to invisible (to us) shareholders,
not to the end users.

------
auxym
See: Android One

[https://www.android.com/one/](https://www.android.com/one/)

No bloatware, updates available.

~~~
dna_polymerase
This is a testament to how messed up Android is these days. Have a look at
iOS. The minimal set of Apps they ship their phones with aren't bloated or
anything besides useful. Guaranteeing updates if the vendor decides to ship
them?

It's basically an example of how Apples strategy with tight grip on their
platform makes so much sense. iPhone owners don't have to worry about any of
that. Generally phones are supported way longer and updates available even for
older phones.

~~~
ImprovedSilence
>> aren’t bloated or anything besides useful.

Really? I have a folder on my iPhone three pages deep called “apple junk”
which is nothing but all the apple pre installed bloat apps that I never use.

Do some people find a use case for them? Sure. But there they are on my phone.
Pre installed and just taking up space..

~~~
JiNCMG
Why keep them in a folder? Uninstall them? 3 Pages Deep? That's 27 icons. I
don't think a default iPhone comes with 27 pre-installed apps.

~~~
freehunter
It’s only been recently that you could uninstall them, and even then it just
removes the icon but keeps the data for a lot of these pre-packaged apps.

~~~
saagarjha
It keeps the system frameworks they rely on. The app itself does go away.

------
wjoe
As much as bloatware is awful and Google could probably have some better rules
on this, Google itself doesn't ship bloatware on it's own phones. I guess it
depends on your definition of bloatware, but YouTube isn't exactly bloatware
on the same level as the junk that comes installed on most third party phones,
and it can be uninstalled - a lot of third party bloatware is installed as a
system app and can't be deleted.

If people don't like junk pre-installed on their Samsung phones or by Verizon,
they should probably complain to them, or stop buying those phones. There are
plenty of brands with stock Android that don't come with pre-installed junk.

------
datashow
The two most common sources of bloatware I saw when I was using Samsung phones
were: AT&T and Samsung. Not only the number of bloatwares is crazy, they keeps
coming back (from OS update?).

~~~
tobenortobe
As a samsung user i can confirm this , maybe it has its own contribution to
competition, but i dont see any excuse creating and dictating your own
ecosystem for every single bit of mobile functionality but i am pretty sure
its not limited to samsung. Also what is wrong in my opinion is that they do
prevent flashing stock images

~~~
nradov
Samsung doesn't want to be dependent on Google for a core business. They are
hedging their bets by building out a parallel ecosystem to enable a future
switch to another OS.

------
simfoo
I think this could be easily addressable by Google: remove the option to have
uninstallable apps

~~~
MiddleEndian
All applications should be removable and all notifications should be
disableable. Even Windows 10, which comes with all sorts of useless irritants,
lets you do this.

~~~
SketchySeaBeast
Imagine how many people would accidentally uninstall the play store. Also, as
near as I can tell, there is no actual legitimate "Phone" app available there.

~~~
MiddleEndian
They could have a functionality like the 5 tap thing to enable developer mode.
The lack of an official Phone app is irrelevant since you could just download
another one, assuming you want to be reachable via phonecall.

------
sidlls
This almost doesn’t even matter. I swore I’d never buy an Apple product, but
that changed after yet another Google “core” (nexus/pixel) phone got busted
after an update. I’ve been happy with my iPhone for months now. The quality is
just better in every single way—and most of the quality issues aren’t going to
be solved by tinkering with the deck chairs like this. These “bloatware” apps
are just symptoms of a larger issue: Google isn’t a hardware or consumer goods
company, and it shows in every way in this product space.

~~~
glass_of_water
I think this is an issue with both iPhone and Android. I had an iPhone 6 that
was bricked by an update, but was out of warranty, so I ended up getting a
Pixel phone and have been pretty happy with it.

------
FeatureIncomple
I hope this works.

On Samsung devices, we have to use hacks like using Package Disabler Pro to
disable stuff:

[https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.kinder.pks...](https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.kinder.pksafety)

My phone is considerably faster and and battery life is much better after
using this. No to mention this probably also closes some provacy holes.

Motorola, on the other hand, does a great job by using mostly vanilla Android
with just a few really useful modifications.

------
mschuetz
It's also one of the reason I try to keep phones for as long as possible until
buying a new one. I loathe all that bloatware and hate dealing with it with
every brand new one.

~~~
imgabe
This is why I stick to Google's flagship phones- Nexus and now Pixel. Clean,
up to date version of Android.

~~~
discordance
Any Android One phone runs stock Android

~~~
zaarn
I can totally recommend the Nokia phones like the 7.2 or 5.1. They run A1 and
have a great feature set for the price.

------
satanspastaroll
It's more "asked nicely" than pushed. "Pushed" implies the organizations have
some leverage over google.

------
salex89
I'm blaming mostly Samsung for this. Because of some, for me mind-boggling,
reason, Samsung grew to be The Android manufacturer, and still is today. In
earlier days I really don't recall their phones being any much better than
their competition. But their software was and is bloated beyond good taste.
And I guess because of that, other manufacturers just followed along.

~~~
MiddleEndian
It's still a problem with Android. If you buy a Dell laptop running Windows,
it will come with a bunch of useless bloatware. But you can just uninstall it.
On Linux, obviously you can uninstall whatever you want. On Android, you
cannot, unless you happen to find the right incantations at the right time for
your device before an update stops them.

~~~
bduerst
Windows is proprietary though. If Google starts dictating too much of what you
can and cannot install on Android then they'll get dinged with another anti-
trust suit.

~~~
MiddleEndian
They don't have to dictate it any more than Microsoft does (since they allow
PC manufacturers to install all sorts of horrific nonsense). They just have to
make the OS such that you can uninstall any application. If this is impossible
to do with non-proprietary software, then that's a point for proprietary
software.

~~~
bduerst
The OEMs will just add the uninstallable flag functionality back because
Android is open source.

The only way to prevent OEMs from doing that is to tie it to the Google Play
Services agreement which will, again, open Google up to yet another antitrust
suit.

~~~
MiddleEndian
If this is the case legally, then it seems in the world of phones, an OSS
operating system puts users at the mercy of more organizations (OS developer
and phone manufacturer) rather than giving them more control.

------
Neil44
Cheesy preinstalled apps is the main reason I go iOS not Android.

~~~
ahartmetz
There are brands without any annoying crap preinstalled. If you want iOS go
for it, but "Android has crapware" is not a very strong reason.

------
EastSmith
When your flagship $1000+ phone is filled with bloatware and you still buy it,
it means you don't have a choice and Android is a monopoly.

~~~
freepor
How does it mean that? There are much cheaper phones without bloatware, and
iPhones with very little "bloatware" \-- there are built-in apps but only one
or two of them are shitty.

------
kazinator
I'm afraid it's impractical to ask Google to do anything about this, because
they don't control what a non-Google device vendor gets to put on a device.

In order to have that control, Google would have to supply a completely locked
down pre-built image to all the third party vendors that they are no able to
customize.

And, so then, how would the end users have any modicum of freedom.

No, this has to go from the bottom up: users have to be able to get a blank
device from a vendor with nothing, and then install a clean OS of our choosing
(whether that be Google or whoever else).

The idea that Google can somehow, or should force vendors to give users a
clean(-er,-ish) image is downright wrongheaded. The image cannot pass through
third party hands such that they have no control over it, yet the end user
somehow does.

------
CivBase
You can install whatever you want on the phone before you sell it to me as
long as you let me delete it. A few exceptions could be made for the home
screen, Google Play Services, and Google Play Store just because many users
would have a hard time reinstalling them.

------
donclark
Could app removal be done via an app? This app could also provide a scan and
tell you which apps are bloatware. Bonus if it was a global registry.

Or is it only thru ADB that you can remove (unless rooted)?
[https://www.maketecheasier.com/uninstall-system-apps-
without...](https://www.maketecheasier.com/uninstall-system-apps-without-root-
android/)

~~~
breakingcups
Even through ADB is not a full removal, you just don't see the app on your
"user profile".

------
nickik
The worst fucking thing on my phone, BY FAR, is the Google Assistant. I have
literally thrown my phone multible times because that GOD DAMN google
assistant keeps poping up and no matter how many hours I spend online I can't
fix this issue.

Google Assistant and the Samsung program that does the same thing (namaly
pissing my off and refusing to be deactivated). Its the worst experiance.

~~~
Mikeb85
Open up your assistant, expand it to full screen, go to your user settings,
then assistant, in the list of devices click on your phone and from there you
can disable it.

~~~
rascul
I just did this. Assistant still pops up asking me to enable it when it takes
me too long to move my thumb off the home button.

------
pjc50
It's a good initiative and what they're asking for is extremely reasonable -
but it does imply Google having more control over the OEMs who are responsible
for dumping this stuff onto phones. Microsoft went through this with
"signature edition" Windows.

~~~
saagarjha
> Microsoft went through this with "signature edition" Windows.

…and somehow we still have Candy Crush bundled with "stock" Windows :/

~~~
tialaramex
(Lots of) people like Candy Crush. For them this is like how Windows comes
with a nice solitaire game.

~~~
pjc50
Microsoft wrote their own Solitaire game back in the Windows 3 days. It's not
complicated, there's no reason they couldn't have written their own non-
tracking properly free game.

~~~
Kye
They had a little run-in with antitrust regulation some years ago and probably
want to avoid it. They kept bundling their own stuff, often with favored
access to undocumented APIs, and people stuck to those defaults.

------
FisherGuy44
Really glad to hear this. Hopefully, Google will take action and I finally can
get rid of those

------
PaulHoule
The lesson of history is that people don't learn from history.

Microsoft has gone through phases where vendors like Dell and HP crammed
computers with "crapplets". Microsoft has leaned hard over a long period of
time to improve the situation.

------
dt3ft
For those that may have missed it: a step by step guide on how to remove Bixby
and Facebook:
[https://20-things.com/Thing?thingId=21](https://20-things.com/Thing?thingId=21)

------
Awelton
I'd like to petition 9to5google.com to not make me have to hit back 5 times to
exit the page I just loaded on mobile.

------
Mindwipe
As far as I can see Google's antitrust settlement with the European Union
specifically prohibits them doing most of these things in the EU.

Not sure why the organisations didn't think of that.

~~~
scarface74
Why should Google be able to dictate what third party manufacturers _can’t_
put on their phones? How would that be different than Microsoft telling
manufacturers back in the day not to include Netscape?

Not that I have a horse in this race I buy iOS devices.

------
Jamwinner
Google is half the bloatware on my samsung. Can't uninstall, and only disbled
by a hack. Start by being the change you want to see.

------
gsich
>Google pushed to take action against Android bloatware by 50 organizations

Google should start with ... Google. Lot of bloatware comes from them too.

~~~
izacus
Most apps can be uninstalled from Pixels / Android One phones these days
(including Chrome, YouTube, Google assistant app, Play music/movies) etc. so
they did change quite a bit these last years.

Unfortunately OEMs still love to abuse the "Don't allow installation" flag on
APKs to prevent you from uninstalling Facebook, LinkedIn, etc. (I'm looking at
you Samsung).

~~~
bubblethink
I really don't think you can uninstall play services from any phone. They have
become slightly better by not installing apps like google+, but that's because
they have killed those apps off themselves.

~~~
izacus
Ugh, sorry, I meant Google Play Music, Google Play Movies or what's it. I
fixed the post.

Play Services are considered a core component and I think even app developers
would be pissed if that could be removed.

------
piahoo
this is why i never run stock rom

