
Police concerned with Apple iOS 6 mapping system - bmmayer1
http://www.vicpolicenews.com.au/more-news/11081-police-concerned-with-apple-ios-6-mapping-system.html
======
enneff
(Disclosure: I work for Google, but not in anything to do with maps. These
opinions are my own.)

I've been to this national park before. It's a beautiful place, but not one
you want to get stuck in unprepared. The temperature estimates given by the
police are accurate. It gets damn hot out there. The roads are gravel at best,
and often just packed dirt or sand. You can very easily get bogged, if you
don't know what you are doing. I got to a point where the road became
unsuitable for my car, and I had to drive backwards for nearly 100 metres to
get out as there was nowhere to turn. I would be concerned for inexperienced
drivers with two-wheel-drive vehicles.

Map data is serious business, and this particular case is an egregious error.

~~~
lusr
The thing I really don't understand is this seems like such a simple thing to
test! Search for X in our data set vs. competitor data set: flag for review if
we are not within 1km radius. Don't release until the number and scope of
flags hasn't been reduced to an acceptable margin of error (don't even have to
test the full data set, just need a good enough statistician to help you
figure out how bad your overall data is based on your sample tested data).

~~~
mda
2 problems here, first, can you use competitors data for comparison and making
your data better? Second, calculating difference is very difficult and size of
difference could be overwhelming. But first issue is the main problem.

~~~
Dylan16807
1\. Yes.

2\. Difficult how? You don't have to perform it on items that can't be
automatically searched for. Then you do subtraction, square, check if you're
over a kilometer.

------
SyneRyder
I think I can explain this one - if I'm right, Apple already has the correct
data, but is using it incorrectly.

One of the Apple Maps data sources is GeoNames (geonames.org), a free data
source available under a Creative Commons Attribution license and also used
with the search on OpenStreetMap. If you search for Mildura at OpenStreetMap
(openstreetmap.org) you'll get the correct location of the town, but if you
scroll down the GeoNames list you'll also be offered "Mildura Shire" as a
search option. Click on that, and the pointer moves to a location similar to
the Apple Maps screenshot, about 70km away from the actual town. It seems
that's the location that Apple's search has chosen to prioritize, over the
actual town.

Mildura Shire is listed in GeoNames as a "second-order administrative
division", so it's probably similar to the middle of a county or council area.

This isn't a problem with datasets or incorrect data, it's a problem with how
Apple is searching & prioritizing the correct data they already have. Choosing
the "town" instead of the "second-order administrative division" would be
appropriate here.

For what it's worth, GeoNames already prioritizes the town of Mildura
correctly in their search engine.

~~~
akent
Nice sleuthing, but if that were the case wouldn't the same problem be seen
more broadly?

~~~
SyneRyder
You can see it more broadly, at least in Australia. I've been going through
some of the examples listed at this blog:
[http://www.unsanelygreat.com/blog/2012/6/24/google-maps-
vs-a...](http://www.unsanelygreat.com/blog/2012/6/24/google-maps-vs-apple-
maps.html)

Many don't line up with GeoNames data, but they do appear to be cases where a
town name clashes with the name of a local council area, and Apple Maps have
chosen the council area instead. Wanneroo is another example here:
[http://theamazingios6maps.tumblr.com/post/32038150409/wanner...](http://theamazingios6maps.tumblr.com/post/32038150409/wanneroo-
perth-western-australia-apple-maps-has)

------
prawn
Recently drove a 4,500 km trip in Australia, including near Mildura. We relied
on two iPhones, one with Google Maps and one with Apple's newer version. For
the most part, we relied on Google's maps and they never failed. Occasionally,
we switched to iOS 6 and had a few different problems including roads simply
not existing. After a while, we'd watch the iOS 6 directions just for a laugh.

Some of the stretches further East of Mildura run 100-200km without petrol
stations and supplies. A number of the national parks in those areas are
unmanned and irregularly visited, and there can be long periods even on sealed
roads where you might not sight another car in an hour of driving. For one
stretch (in and out of Mungo National Park), we stocked up on a lot of extra
water as a precaution and notified family of our plans. Having an infant with
us, I was very conscious of how quickly the temperature can rise once the air-
con is off.

Can easily see how people might blindly follow maps/GPS and end up caught out.
Especially when you're relying on cached phone maps data if your connection
drops, as it does frequently out there.

~~~
rytis
I never rely on a phone whilst traveling (driving, cycling, hiking). When
driving I mostly use built in car GPS or take a secondary dash mount GPS for
longer journeys.

When on feet I use one primary eTrex with maps, and always have a cheap
secondary hand held GPS without the maps. Plus a paper map. And a set of extra
AA batteries.

Google search, maps and other good things you have on a smartphone are nice,
but it's way too unreliable to my taste. Battery life is crap, and without a
connection the phone is pretty useless, unless you use a mapping app that can
download map data. In which case I'd rather use a dedicated mapping device.

EDIT: Obviously all the equipment can't replace common sense. If you see you
can't go any further - don't. Even if all your electronic devices tell you
otherwise.

~~~
arethuza
"Plus a paper map"

I'd never go anywhere risky without a paper map and conventional compass - I
actually rarely use a GPS when out on the hill because I want to keep my
navigation skills reasonably sharp. I generally only use a GPS device to
confirm decisions I've already made in rather "tricky" situations.

------
jws
GPS navigation systems have already killed:
[http://www.npr.org/2011/07/26/137646147/the-gps-a-fatally-
mi...](http://www.npr.org/2011/07/26/137646147/the-gps-a-fatally-misleading-
travel-companion)

Rangers are frustrated by having defunct roads or paths in GPS navigation
systems as roads and having no way to get them removed.

I was traveling in Death Valley recently, and the span of "unpaved road" ran
from "better than my driveway" to "I could try, but there is a 50-50 chance
this rented jeep[1] isn't coming back."

EOM

[1] If you pass through, spend a day, rent a jeep. Don't do that to your own
tires. The rental guy will tell you where to go to see the things you want to
see.

~~~
rdl
Also, dear god, put a couple cases of bottled water in your car. I do that
even when driving around the Bay Area (if nothing else, $0.10/bottle water vs.
$1.50/bottle water at the gas station is a win), but it was weird being in SW
NV seeing people with absolutely no preparations in their car.

~~~
genwin
Even better, use a multi-gallon reusable water container, if it'll be used
repeatedly.

~~~
rdl
Doesn't work as well in a car, in my experience (I have a fair bit of
experience with being in the desert, cars breaking down or being destroyed,
etc.)

Opening and closing the container leads to contamination, and consequently it
is generally "emergency only" use, vs. something you use routinely (and thus
maintain automatically). If you end up having to walk some distance, you can't
really take the container comfortably, vs. throwing some bottles into whatever
bag or pockets you have.

I like bottles because they fit in cupholders, and it's easy to give out
bottles of water to people (e.g. a broken down other car, or someone injured,
or drunk people after a party, or whatever). A case of water is $3-5 from
Costco.

~~~
genwin
Those are good points. Perhaps an alternative is to have many multi-use small
containers, like I have for hiking. Something's got to be better than always
using one-time usage plastic bottles. Of course recycling them helps, but so
few people do that.

~~~
rdl
I have a stainless water bottle (hydroflask; insulated) that I use myself for
water and tea, but reusable = expensive = can't just give to people and not
get back.

The energy and environmental cost of ~6-12 cases of water per year isn't
really that big a deal. The extra fuel burned by carrying 5kg might be more
than the cost of the water bottles.

------
001sky
_Police concerned with Apple iOS 6 mapping system_

\-- You should never blindly follow consumer-level GPS. Full stop.

Especially in remote areas/national parks/widerness areas. Hate to say this is
"common sense", but really it should be. It really has nothing to do with
Apple, the iPhone, or iOS. Its quite the opposite, there are errors on all
sorts of digitized maps. Most people are not aware or the vintage of the
underlying mapping data (pre-digitization) and the variances of map-set data
even amonst variant databases of "real maps".

~~~
enneff
No "real map" would have this error because of the human element: you wouldn't
plot a town where there isn't one, particularly if you were also responsible
for plotting the roads of the town.

This is a data processing problem. Someone's algorithm screwed up and they
didn't bother to have people sanity check the results.

~~~
Anechoic
_you wouldn't plot a town where there isn't one_

It happens. About 12-13 years ago, a colleague and I were driving around Ohio
to document landuse near a freight railroad line. The maps we had (USGS, AAA
maps and local street maps) indicated a small town in one location, but when
we drove there, there was nothing, no remnants, no anything. When we got back
to the office, we looked into it- turns out the town had been wiped out by a
flood a few years earlier and the decision was made to disincorporate the town
instead of rebuild. That town appeared on maps that were printed after it was
abandoned.

Perhaps this doesn't happen anymore with more recent mapping
techniques/technology, but it's not unheard of.

~~~
codeka
But there's a difference between old/outdated data and putting towns in
completely the wrong place.

~~~
AYBABTME
I've used map in the military - of Afghanistan - that were relinquish of old
soviet maps. The soviet would have never got in many places of the desert and
had mapped villages and roads from aerial photography. Those features would
remain on our (US) maps.

As they rushed into the war, the geomatic guys responsible for making maps
somehow reused the soviet maps and there was no way to assume those roads and
villages didn't actually exist. So they persisted on our maps, up until 2010.
Data around main areas would end up getting corrected (patrols would complain
about the inaccuracy and the geo guys would update their database). Data in
the desert would remain erroneous in many case.

For instance, I could simply look at a village's location on satellite
imagery, such as a casual Google Map, and clearly see there was nothing there
but maybe some odd looking shapes and shadows due to rock formations. So even
hand-crafted maps, in military operation, almost 10 years into the war, can
remain inaccurate.

Worst, maps of many military bases in North America are completely wrong as
soon as you get off the few main roads listed on it.

I came to rely on satellite imagery whenever you want to go on a somehow non-
urban track. It's much more reliable than using a map.

------
robomartin
Interestingly enough, today I was having a conversation about whether or not
Maps had made any real improvements. You know, the kind that might compel one
to finally upgrade to iOS6 or even consider upgrading to an iPhone 5. I asked
a few people and nearly all of them expressed concern about being able to
trust Maps. News like this doesn't make one feel better at all.

Frankly, I don't understand Apple's decision in the context of the idea of
being customer-focused. In other words, if you, as an organization, make
decisions for the benefit of your customers --or, at the very least not to
their detriment-- how can you justify pushing out Maps and not keeping Google
Maps on there?

OK, I get it. It would have cost more. A lot more. Fine. That's your problem.
Pay Google for another five years exactly because you care about your
customers. At the same time, put out your own Maps app and --funny enough--
compete on the merits of the app, not the hype.

If in five years you can't turn Maps into an app that people will choose over
Google Maps, then, well, why are you in the mapping business in the first
place?

~~~
ceol
The only way for Maps to get better is for people to report errors. If they
release it alongside Google's version and no one uses it, no one will report
errors, so it would never get better, and so on.

Just two years ago I had Google Maps send me a few miles in the wrong
direction and plant me in the middle of an unfinished housing development when
I wanted to go to a shopping mall. It was a mistake, I reported it, and it was
eventually fixed. It's not as bad as getting stranded in the middle of a
national park, but

a) It should be obvious that the middle of a national park isn't where a town
is supposed to be, and

b) If it's not obvious because you are a tourist, maybe you shouldn't be
blindly trusting your Maps app and only having enough gas to make it to town?

~~~
enjo
This is the worlds most valuable company with billions of dollars in the bank.
You spend some of that money to make sure that things work. They aren't a
start-up, and they have a very real brand to protect. That's the thing, this
debacle was the very first time that devout Apple users en-masse looked at
Android and went "Android does maps flat out better".

That's going to have real long-term consequences I'm not sure Apple even
understands yet. For instance look at how quickly the tech crowd embraced
Google now on the iPhone? The hole in Apple's armor makes it easier for people
to accept that _other_ things are also better. These things really can
snowball, and when you're protecting a luxury brand that's a really serious
issue.

You simply can't screw up what might be the most universally used feature
(maps) on the entire phone. It's the one thing, next to maybe the dialer and
messaging, that people interact with more than anything else. Screwing that up
makes all of your polish, usability, and "coolness" irrelevant. Instead of
arrogantly shoving crap out the door and expecting everyone to love it just
because, maybe that's the time to invest that money and do the quality control
you have to do to make it work. Hire 10,000 people to drive all over the world
making sure you got it right. Google does something close to that (those
Google maps cars improve the accuracy of their data ten-fold), and if you want
to compete you should too.

Now you have to put the genie back in the bottle and hope the damage isn't
long-lasting. It's probably going to be even more expensive and I'm not sure
you can.

~~~
ceol
I'm not really sure what damage you're talking about, aside from posts from
random people online badmouthing Maps. iPhone and iPad sales are still strong.
Maps have gotten significantly better in just a few months (although I never
saw a problem with it myself.) Everyone seems happy aside from people driving
into an Australian desert they've never been to with no supplies— oh, and
folks who need transit directions.

You can't expect _any_ company to hire 10,000 people to work N amount of
hours/day/years just so you can polish your app 5% more when that same polish
can come from users submitting error reports. That's just nonsense.

~~~
mpclark
Anecdotal I know, but I have a chum - a big, big Apple fan - who has so far
refused to upgrade to iOS 6 because of the maps issues. He also expected to
buy the iPhone 5, but when it arrived it just didn't seem worth it. He's even
given my SGS III appreciative looks. All this stuff is cumulative. Apple sales
won't collapse overnight, but it is eating away at goodwill.

~~~
GVIrish
I'm in exactly that boat. I was planning on buying the iPhone 5 but when I
heard about the maps problem it stopped me cold. I depend on Google Maps now
for a lot of things like finding metro stops not to mention that I also use it
when traveling abroad.

I'm at the point where I'm seriously considering going the Android route,
especially since I think Google's OS and services are improving much more
rapidly than Apple's.

------
MetalMASK
The map failure is just another example of where apple's design principle
cannot be blindly applied to every product. Apple's top-down approach on
software design is expected to fail on Maps. Maps put hard requirement on
data, bottom data, nothing to do with your leader's _vision_. Apple's way out
of this is not to engage user input to add missing data or correct data errors
--OSM tried that for years, the most accurate data still comes from semi-
professional survey-er.

Look at other companies that does map, google map started out using Tele
Atlas, NavTeq serves yahoo, bing and mapquest. Let's face it, spatial data
cost money to collect and even more costly to update/maintain. Nevteq and Tele
Atlas are gigantic companies for serving basic spatial data for a reason.

I guess apple didn't do sufficient data QA before saying, "hell yeah we are
going with OSM where every big player is going with commercial data."

Without a solid baseline data, any fancy pants software development would just
evaporate in air.

I have to say though, the GUI for apple map and functionality has very high
usability. Apple just need to adapt a different mindset when dealing with
data-dependent applications.

(disclaimer: I am a PhD student in Geography with CS background, did my share
of processing spatial data for the last 8 years)

~~~
maratd
> I guess apple didn't do sufficient data QA before saying, "hell yeah we are
> going with OSM where every big player is going with commercial data."

Is Apple using OSM? I thought they were using TomTom?

~~~
m_eiman
They credit OSM, so at least some of their data is from there.

------
jyap
As a former Victorian now living in the US, I think it's apt to point out that
46 degrees Celsius is 114.8 degrees Fahrenheit and 70 kilometers is 43.495
miles.

~~~
jerf
Unless you really think the police were being precise to within a meter
(Google says .001 mile =~ 1.6 meters), it's "about 115F" and "about 40 miles",
respectively. (Got a bit unlucky on the miles, I'd also consider "about 45".)

~~~
vacri
You generally shouldn't increase the number of significant digits by more than
one anyway, even if you are after a precise measurement.

------
tripzilch
I heard similar stories about Google Maps a few years ago, people getting
stuck in US desert/parks because the GPS is incorrect (and also reception
wasn't good back then, but that might have improved by now maybe).

At least this story is hitting the HN front page. Because the park rangers
were hitting Google's traditionally deaf customer service ears (which must
have been super-frustrating because people _had_ already died and/or gotten
into life-threatening situations).

I lost the link to that article, sorry. If I happen upon it, I'll post it
here.

On the one hand I suppose it's people's own fault for venturing into dangerous
terrain unprepared. But on the other hand, what's the use of having GPS Maps
when you don't know _when_ it's trustworthy or not? Great effort by
OpenStreetMap (read below) of cross-checking their own maps for consistency
with competitor maps, is at least a step in the right direction.

------
jstclair
I had to go to the main emergency room in Oslo last week. iOS6 couldn't find
it, or even the correct street. Looking at the map in detail later, it didn't
even have a building at the correct location. I was furious.

~~~
kanamekun
Did you find it on the Google Map website/web app?

~~~
jstclair
Yep; on the first try. Unfortunately, I was trying to drive my son (who had
broken his arm) and the Google driving directions would only display the list
mode, rather than on the map. I ended up finding the building on Google Maps,
then dropping a pin on iOS Maps, and using the turn-by-turn.

All-in-all a stressful experience

~~~
nasmorn
Why didn't you call an ambulance? When I worked for the redcross during civil
service I always wondered why we have patients with nose bleed or some other
bubu to drive in and then we take back some guy with a broken leg or life
threatning pneumonia that got in himself.

~~~
jstclair
Actually, my big mistake was not keeping the taxi I'd taken from work
(normally, I take the tram & train) to pick him up at school.

He was in pain, but not anything I'd consider taking the ambulance for (and
the driving distance from his school to the emergency room is ~2-3 km). I
shouldn't have gotten my car, and instead just have dumped him into the taxi.
Norway covers a share of the taxi fare when it's for medical reasons.

------
thisrod
I'm intrigued that the police let this happen five times, and then put out a
press release. After the second time in two weeks, I would have put up a sign:
"This is not the road to Mildura. Go back and turn left at the highway."

~~~
isleyaardvark
"Your iPhone is wrong" would be more effective.

------
readme
So, no, it's not good that apple's map data is inaccurate. But the title might
be misleading.

The bottom line is if you're driving into a wilderness area like a national
park, you should _not_ be depending on your cell phone for your own safety.
One of the first things they tell you if you read the pamphlet outside of a
hiking area is: do not depend on you cell phone.

So sure, the map data is inaccurate. The more dangerous thing about this is
that your battery has a finite lifespan. Also your signal is not guaranteed.

You need to bring water, you need to bring supplies. You need to bring warm
clothing.

Seriously.

~~~
Cogito
Maybe it wasn't obvious to you from the article, but the issue here is that
the maps direct you into a national park instead of Mildura, a nice little
Victorian town.

These people getting lost are _not_ intending to drive "into a wilderness area
like a national park", but were led into one by mistaken data.

Yes, you could presume that the signs you were going the wrong way might be
self evident after a little while, but if someone had literally no idea where
Mildura was then they could easily end up in the middle of this national park
assuming their iPhone was simply taking them the long way 'round. As they have
_no other choice_ they keep following the maps until they get to where they
have been directed, only to find themselves in the middle of nowhere with no
help and no reception.

This is a serious problem, and the map data needs to be fixed.

~~~
onedev
So you're telling me they ignored every sign that told them they were entering
a national park?

5 different groups of people managed to not even have a tiny bit of
skepticism?

~~~
Cogito
I grew up in regional NSW in Australia, and Google would repeatedly offer a
route to Sydney through weird choices of mountain roads. If I did not know
better, I might have taken those roads simply because I knew no other way to
get to Sydney. I never took those roads, but I know people who did, and
fortunately they were only out a couple of extra hours on a long trip.

Sydney is _very_ well known and signposted city, but for Mildura, a town of
just over 30000 people in regional Victoria, the fact that it is not as well
known and is more remote lends credibility to the idea that unknowing people
who have come to rely on technology (and understandably so, technology is
great!) might be misled by rogue data.

\- sidenote - We constantly rely on technology, and come to depend on it. This
is a good thing. Only when technology is unreliable do we need to carry
'backups'. It would be weird to carry a pencil around just in case your pen
broke (edit: in most situations, that is; going into space is not a normal
situation, so it would not be weird to carry a pencil in addition to a pen
there). Digital maps are not yet at their pinnacle of development, nor are
they completely reliable, however that is no reason not to use them
exclusively if they prove reliable enough for the job at hand.

The town was itself was placed in the wrong place. These people could easily
have thought they were going in the right direction, and if they had concerns
about the roads they were taking what choices would they have?

They could have studied the map. Maybe this is a 'scenic route' and there were
better roads to take that the app just missed? If they looked at the map they
might have been able to figure out a better way to go. In any case, the data
was wrong, so they still wouldn't get to the correct location! If they were
very clever, they might note the confluence of highways where the town
actually lies, and navigate themselves there.

They might have asked someone for directions, but this was next to impossible
where they were, especially as there was no mobile reception.

Perhaps they took a wrong turn, so they might decide to turn around and go
back. Go back where? Surely if they just keep going the way the map says they
will get to the right place? The only evidence against going the way that they
were was that it was through a national park, and even that is not unheard of.
In fact, there are a number of highways that go through national parks.

The very fact that (at least) 5 separate groups have been waylaid speaks to
the importance of this issue.

------
djt
It is quite common for tourists to get into trouble here in Australia due to
the differences in climate etc too.

FYI, when you travel make sure to bring extra clothes, water and food.
Australia is a massive land mass and it is hard to fathom for people form a
lot of countries that it can be a very harsh place for the unprepared.

[http://blog.australian-native.com.au/wp-
content/uploads/2009...](http://blog.australian-native.com.au/wp-
content/uploads/2009/12/australiamap.jpg)

Never have a single point of failure. A paper map or extra GPS at the bare
minimum.

------
oohmeplums
It looks like this issue was caused by Apple mistakenly marking the centre of
Local Government Areas as 'cities', in Australia at least. See example at
<http://imgur.com/qlciM> for an example from Perth; Cambridge and Vincent
aren't suburbs, and the others are in the wrong spot (Joondalup CBD is on the
wrong side of the freeway)

~~~
mambodog
A more glaring issue with Apple's map of Perth to my mind is that Fremantle
Harbour has been completely filled in. See the bottom left of this Google map
for comparison: <http://i.imgur.com/GsmxQ.jpg>

------
duncan_bayne
I live in Australia, and while I am not a fan of Apple or their products,I
have to say that I'm surprised anyone in their right mind would go bush with
just one map. Electronic or paper, maps have errors. Don't bet your life
otherwise.

~~~
mwill
Mildura isn't really going bush, depending on where you're coming from. I'd
(before this article) be pretty comfortable following phone directions from
say Bendigo to Mildura, which should just be a straight run down Calder Hwy.
It seems pretty reasonable to use it to find a route between two cities/towns,
which I've done in WA a few times with Google Maps.

Though I'll admit I've never used turn by turn for that, rather just got the
broad strokes. Is this a problem with turn by turn directions, or is Mildura
actually in the wrong place on ios6 maps?

EDIT: Took a look, seems like Mildura is actually marked at the wrong
location, which is significantly worse imo.

~~~
enneff
Indeed.

Here's the road you should be taking: <http://goo.gl/maps/QbZ88>

And this is the kind of road that Apple's maps send you down:
<http://goo.gl/maps/CdCjh>

------
shimms
Unrelated to the content of the post, but humorous that they get the
capitalisation of "iOS" correct, but consistently spell iPhone "i-phone".

------
jasonlingx
Please can we switch back to Google maps now?

~~~
randomdata
Google Maps on my iPhone has tried to send me down roads buried in several
feet of snow (no winter maintenance road) before. Switching back to Google
Maps doesn't make this sort of problem magically go away.

~~~
charliesome
The difference is that the road is still there, it's just buried beneath snow.

It's a maps app, not a weather reporting app.

~~~
randomdata
Sorry if I wasn't entirely clear before. The road wasn't buried in snow
because we just had a blizzard, the road was buried because it has no winter
maintenance. The road should not have come up as a passable route. For all
intents and purposes, it does not exist.

~~~
kedean
That's an interesting issue I've never considered, living in an area where
most roads are maintained, and if they are not they can still be driven on.
Are there any digital map services that do take that into account when
providing possible routes?

------
simonlang
This reminds me of a recent story where some tourists tried to drive their
rental car to an island (through the ocean) because their GPS told them to:

[http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/travel/travel-news/taking-
th...](http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/travel/travel-news/taking-the-most-
direct-route-to-straddie-20120315-1v85m.html)

------
mattquiros
Can't help noticing how those who've never had problems with Apple Maps are
usually people from the US. The iPhone is sold in other parts of the world
too, you know.

~~~
pthreadses
Actually I've noticed quite the opposite. At least in the more populated parts
of Europe, in my experience Apple Maps does fine and in some cases does better
than Google Maps (in my home city of Berlin I find Apple Maps to have been an
improvement, primarily in the department of Apple Maps "knowing what it
doesn't know" where as Google seems to guess and be wrong. Also, transit.
Google is terrible for transit in Europe).

I recently used Apple Maps to roadtrip through Germany and Austria, and it
worked without a single hiccup. This summer I had the beta running in
Switzerland and it was fine.

In the darker corners of Europe, well, I'll just say in Belgrade iOS maps
literally had nothing but a pin. No streets at all. So it seems wildly
dependent on where you are.

------
Argorak
Out of couriosity, I navigated the Kalahari with both a map and a TomTom. I
was quite surprised to find that the paths were quite accurate - but shifted
by roughly 5 kms. So I could use the maps, but not the navigation capabilities
of the system at all.

------
jmspring
Even before the iOS 6 maps debacle, relying on GPS for guidance in places like
National Parks was pretty dumb. There are multiple stories of people getting
stranded (and even dying) when relying on maps for places like Death Valley.
Often times, even if one is in a suitable vehicle, knowledge of the
environment, what to do in case of a problem, etc. are essential necessities
in the case of _anything_ going wrong.

A buddy and I travel the back country of Death Valley regularly and the
stories we have heard, the vehicles we have seen trying to go places they
shouldn't, etc. are just amazing. At a certain point, however, common sense
and personal responsibility need to be considered.

~~~
ChuckMcM
Its not like bad map data on a free service can start a war, oh wait it can
get that bad.[1]

[1] [http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2010/nov/15/google-
map-...](http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2010/nov/15/google-map-dispute-
nicaragua)

------
Pinatubo
James Kim died just about 6 years ago. A lot of people blamed a GPS failure
for his death, but apparently he and his family were using paper maps.

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Kim>

------
bitsweet
I love my iPhone, MBP, iPad, and how generally apple has raised the bar on
software quality. But the maps app is truly intolerable - it's the most
unusable thing apple released since ping, maybe even more so.

~~~
jarcoal
I think it's highly usable, just not useful :)

------
dchichkov
Was driving from SF to Big Sur some time back. Google totally tried to take me
off road from HW 1 [turn right. turn right now], and then calmly stated "There
is no route to your destination".

~~~
RyJones
Google Maps is frequently broken around the thinly-populated Seattle metro
area. I've filed bug after bug, to no avail; in the end, I stopped using it
altogether. It cannot handle the I90 express lanes in either direction;
getting directions to somewhere on Mercer Island from Seattle when you're on
the express lanes eastbound gets a route to Bellevue, turn around, and come
back. No, that's OK, I'll take one of the Mercer Island exits, thank you.

Furthermore, the transit integration is so broken as to be useless. Asking for
a route from Kirkland to the Seattle federal building gives you a bus route to
downtown Kirkland (the post office, actually). The POIs in that area are AFU.

------
ck2
So what was the death rate before iphone or any smartphone existed?

What if the iphone battery dies, even with super accurate maps?

I don't have a cellphone plan so I carry paper maps, I guess I am old and old
fashioned.

~~~
chris_wot
Not to mention smart. If you go to the outback in many areas of Australia
without a map or a backup plan, you are seriously risking your life.

------
nicholassmith
Oddly enough Google Maps got me lost before, a couple of times. Lets stop
assuming Google Maps was all that and a bag of chips, it did have issues at
times.

I think it's because I've done long journeys powered by digital maps but I
always made sure that there was an agreement level between two, or that it
looked sane on a tried and tested road map. As good as they've gotten for the
most part they're still prone to bugs, or to lose signal. Paper maps are a car
essential still.

------
WestCoastJustin
Here is a horror story about a couple from my province that "became stuck in a
remote area when their GPS system led them on to a back road" [1].

[1] [http://www.usaprepares.com/survival/husband-died-just-six-
mi...](http://www.usaprepares.com/survival/husband-died-just-six-miles-from-
help-after-he-and-wife-got-lost-in-wild-because-of-gps-he-died-trying-to-
raise-alarm-but-she-survived-for-seven-weeks-by-staying-put)

------
jmgrimes
I wonder if the big players can improve the quality of their maps by
implementing wiki-style editing systems like OpenStreetMap.

Google seem to have already started down this path with the Map Maker
functionality. <http://www.google.com.au/mapmaker>

~~~
aw3c2
Map Maker is not really wiki-style. At least for me wiki means that you get
your data out in a more of less raw form. With Map Maker you add vector data
and get pictures in return. A drastic reduction in usability to me. You cannot
export your data from Map Maker. You only feed Google with it.

------
georgeorwell
We can all agree that the police are doing a good job by warning people about
the problem, right?

------
Flenser
You should always have a road atlas in your car. Batteries run out and network
connections may not be reliable, you will always have access to a paper map if
you have one. If you have an atlas you can always navigate yourself out of any
problem (diversions, heavy traffic, accidents closing roads etc.) and they are
a good sanity check of whatever your GPS or map app is telling you. Better
yet, check your route in the atlas before you set out and you will know your
route better, and be able to react quicker to any unforeseen problems.

------
MagnitudeSw
The new maps drop a major landmark on my street in Atlanta. We went from dead
quiet to non-stop traffic. Not good when people are driving 30+ MPH staring at
their phones in confusion.

It's been 1.5 months since we've had everyone we can think of submit the
problem. Still not fixed.

What does it take for Apple to actually "fix" an incorrect pin location and
label?

------
dhughes
I have to admit that occasionally during whiteout snowstorms I glance at my
GPS more as moral support that I am indeed on a road.

Telephone poles are also a good guide if I can see them.

~~~
scoot
_occasionally during whiteout snowstorms I glance at my GPS more as moral
support that I am indeed on a road_

In which case you need to be aware that GPS is generally only accurate to
within tens of meters (sometimes worse), and your satnav will pin you to to
the road it thinks you should be on, even if your computed position disagrees
(as you will have noticed if you've ever taken a different route to that which
your satnav is recommending).

~~~
dhughes
I'm aware.

It's far worse than that in my region most roads in my area are wrong, I tried
to submit the errors to the two largest mapping companies but no dice.

The errors I mentioned are at least five years old and still have not been
corrected yet!

------
guscost
"Anyone travelling to Mildura or other locations within Victoria should rely
on other forms of mapping until this matter is rectified. Like Google Maps."

Explication mine.

------
lisperforlife
I would pay money for a google maps app.

------
mtgx
Apple's hatred towards Google is now putting people's lives at risk. Good job,
Apple.

------
hnruss
Whatever happened to reading road signs? They are actually pretty easy to use.

------
davemaya
They misplaced the main hospital in Cambridge, UK.

------
asc76
They first to to get it to work properly.

------
Mordor
Steve Jobs was great at coming late to market with a product superior to
everyone else. Time is telling of his replacement..

------
djbender
"Apple i-phone."

------
bmmayer1
*is stranding

~~~
kaptain
Yes, changing the title would help clarify the content of the article. At
first I thought the police had an issue with the concept of the iOS 6 mapping
feature (e.g. privacy issues). Despite the terseness of the article, the issue
engenders mixed feelings of sympathy and bemusement.

------
rymith
I'm curious how this differs from an outdated paper map.

~~~
akent
The location was shown ~70 km from where it actually is. Even an outdated map
would get it closer than that.

~~~
rymith
Perhaps, I don't know. That's why I'm curious.

~~~
batiudrami
Well, towns don't change location. So if it was merely outdated, at worst it
wouldn't be on the map. If the map was wrong then there's no difference, but
you should be asking why your map of choice shows a town 70km away from where
it actually is.

~~~
rymith
Not even a little accurate. I live in the great white north. Most Canadians
live within 300km of the 49th parallel. Once we take out this southern belt,
it means you have a country the size of the United States with about 10
million people, so the distance between towns is much more than it used to be.
Now with -40 winters, between temporary roads used for oil rigs, frozen lakes
in which we use as roads, derelict towns that are now ghost towns due to
everyone migrating to the city, defunct reserves, etc... A paper map made 10
years ago can get you killed just as easy as an iOS, Google, or Tom Tom one
can. We frequently lose people to the cold all the time. My Dad lost one of
his best friends and his wife last year, and they weren't using a GPS.

------
wilfra
Change title from 'Police' to 'State Police in Victoria, Australia' please.
Title is misleading/linkbaity.

~~~
jval
Sorry mate, but Victoria is not a 'small Australian city'.

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victoria_(Australia)>

~~~
enneff
Victoria isn't a city at all, it's a state. But it's the Mildura police that
issued this warning. Mildura is certainly a small town.

~~~
jval
Without this degenerating into an argument over semantics, by that line of
reasoning any police officer would simply be a 'police officer in a small
neighbourhood police station' no matter how large the police body is. The
warning was issued by Victoria Police members and is on the Victoria Police
website, I don't see there being any issue with its credibility.

~~~
wilfra
There is no problem with the credibility of the article - the problem is with
the sensationalist/linkbaiting headline. Most people are going to assume upon
reading the title that 'Police' refers to something a bit more substantial
than the police force of Mildura, Australia.

~~~
skeletonjelly
They represent the state police force as a whole.

------
assharif
This never would have happened if Steve Jobs was alive

