
JFK’s teen mistress addresses relationship in memoir (2012) - loourr
http://nypost.com/2012/02/05/teen-mistress-addresses-relationship-pols-cold-war-fears-in-memoir/
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spodek
Many posts here critical of JFK so far, including one agreeing with link
calling him a monster. Somebody posted here "Its not sexual abuse when you're
either the President or in Hollywood," as if his position or location was
relevant. The relevant point is everyone was adult and participated
voluntarily.

We are all free to share our opinions, but different people have different
values. 19-year-old women and 45-year-old men are adults free to decide to do
what they want. If they choose to do something you disagree with, others
disagree with what you do.

Name-calling and criticizing adults for doing what everyone involved consented
to is opinion and they go both ways.

~~~
AndrewKemendo
>19-year-old women and 45-year-old men are adults free to decide to do what
they want. If they choose to do something you disagree with, others disagree
with what you do.

The president was actively betraying the trust of his wife and family, so in
fact it wasn't as libertarian as you make it seem.

Beyond that, the memoir clearly shows massively inappropriate behavior for a
sitting president or anyone with such a power disparity, to include
significant instances of coercion and actions which denigrate the position and
shame the relationship he had with his wife.

Shame on you for equivocating.

~~~
vdaniuk
Shame is toxic as it silences opposing views with emotional arguments. Please
refrain from using shame as strategy to win discussions.

~~~
gnaritas
Emotional arguments are the only way to sway many people, everyone doesn't
respond to logic.

~~~
vidarh
That may be so, but the problem with that avenue is that often people think
they've made a logical argument when it is full of value judgements. In this
case the comment in question was full of value judgements and assumptions
based on incomplete information (they may be true, but they may also not be),
and the final appeal to emotion was nothing more than a strong emotional
restatement of an argument that did not rest on logic to begin with.

~~~
gnaritas
If an argument doesn't resonate with you it's easy to simply say I respond to
reason rather than emotion, or vise versa. Or point out the problems as you
just did, perfectly fine approach, but you can't ban emotional arguments
because sadly, most people are emotional, and those arguments tend to work
better. It'd be nice if everyone only responded to non fallacious logical
arguments, but it just isn't so.

------
bane
I was born after JFK and never really "got" the mystique with the Kennedy
family. Whenever a Kennedy family special show used to broadcast (pre-cable)
I'd always just switch the channel to something more interesting or just turn
it off. On the few occasions my Grandmother or Parents insisted I always found
the obsessive fawning very tiresome.

The brief bits I learned over the years seem to point to a pretty seedy family
history full of unprosecuted white-collar crime and general hustling before
anybody caught on and criminalized it. Then turned the family wealth into
political connections (as organized criminals are wont to do) and was put in
charge of "campaign contributions" and the rest is history. "America's Royal
Family" is a shameful appellation. I never thought they were terribly
photogenic or glamorous or really all that interesting.

Using that as a background framework, none of the "scandalous" things I've
ever heard about JFK or the family ever really surprised me. This is just yet
another thing to add to the list. So...meh?

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gavanwoolery
I hate to say it, but quite a few US presidents have a psychological profile
that closely, if not entirely, fits that of a socio/psychopath -- in fact,
these traits are invaluable when you are running for president (having this
condition, as pop culture likes to hint, does not make you a murderer
necessarily). A sociopath is risk-adverse, does not take responsibility or
feel guilty, and often is outwardly charming. These days more than ever, a
president is required to "look the other way" or remain "blissfully ignorant"
when the biggest lobbyists secure major contracts, enact laws that benefit
them, or sidestep laws that don't. As a side note, both of my parents are
psychiatrists who have dealt with every variety (including the criminally
insane) - this does not in the least make me an expert, but they did teach me
a lot (for my own safety) about spotting these types of disorders.

~~~
oseibonsu
Those characteristics apply to narcissists. All sociopath are narcissists but
not all narcissists are sociopaths. Sociopaths cannot feel empathy or guilt.
Those who suffer from narcissistic personality disorder feel guilt and are
driven by a deep sense of insecurity.

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narcissistic_personality_disord...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narcissistic_personality_disorder)

~~~
gavanwoolery
Yep - that is entirely true. But wouldn't you feel guilty if you humiliated a
girl like JFK did at the pool with Powers? It seemed that JFK had no remorse
about any of his actions -- but again, this is just working off the material I
am reading here (which matches some other accounts of his behavior).

~~~
phaus
Actually, the article mentions that JFK apologized to both of them afterwards.

~~~
gavanwoolery
Apologizing is different from feeling guilt (or doing it in the first place) -
that said this is still very much the realm of hypothesis for me so I would
gladly be wrong. Sociopaths are able to blend in fairly well exactly because
of things like this - they can even put on the mask of caring or feeling
guilty without being either. I used to work with a sociopath (99 percent
certain of this) - he would do completely reckless things with company money,
then when I would call him out on it he would apologize. Later he would repeat
the same offenses. Similarly, I don't think this was Kennedy's last
questionable action.

~~~
Amadou
_then when I would call him out on it he would apologize. Later he would
repeat the same offenses._

Yes, that fits the profile of a sociopath - he manipulated you in order to get
you off his back. The question wrt JFK is whether apologizing to her and his
staffer was done out of a sense of guilt or was it just manipulation for his
own gain. Unfortunately the article does not give us enough details to decide
one way or the other.

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tptacek
Noah's take on this story seems about right:

[http://www.newrepublic.com/blog/timothy-noah/100566/jfk-
mons...](http://www.newrepublic.com/blog/timothy-noah/100566/jfk-monster)

~~~
rayiner
Its not sexual abuse when you're either the President or in Hollywood.

~~~
cbsmith
Just out of curiosity, is it _ever_ possible for two people at different
levels in the same workplace's hierarchy to engage in sexual relations without
it being sexual abuse?

~~~
n09n
Yes, of course. But only they would ever know that. It's impossible is for
that to happen in a way such that outside observers can be sure it's not
sexual abuse.

~~~
WalterSear
Schrödinger's pussy.

------
DanielBMarkham
One of the terrible things about Nixon's presidency was that when he got
caught in Watergate, presidents stopped taping all their Oval Office
conversations.

We are losing a generation of precious history. Nowadays, if you're anywhere
national public office, you don't leave a paper trail and there are no smoking
guns. Teams of lawyers followed Bill Clinton around getting affidavits from
anybody that might have a chance of releasing anything salacious.

That's a shame, because presidents are all too human -- warts and all. In my
mind JFK was a sexual predator and junkie, but it's better for history that we
know the truth. Instead I fear that all we're going to get from 1975 onward is
a plastic version of the people who occupied the office.

ADD: One point of interest about this particular U.S. President: Mimi Alford's
story is nowhere near being unique. If anything, hers is a tame version of
JFK's lifestyle. Dont' forget that Marilyn Monroe was a mistress, as were many
other people. I've seen estimates of his sexual conquests that number in the
hundreds. Then there's the drug use, including IV drugs administered in the
White House by "Dr. Feelgood".

If anything, JFK's story reinforces for me the great amount of latitude we can
have in a president without fearing that the world is going to blow up.

~~~
srl
> If anything, JFK's story reinforces for me the great amount of latitude we
> can have in a president without fearing that the world is going to blow up.

For me, it underlines a stronger message, since JFK is widely considered to be
one of our better presidents, and I personally rank him as one of the two or
three best. It seems that how good of a person someone is, is not a good
indicator of how good of a president that person will be.

~~~
DanielBMarkham
Apologies for the directness, but JFK was ranked as some kind of awesome
president because he was killed in office, not because of some magic power he
had. Most people who weren't infatuated with the man at the time felt like
he'd barely be remembered if it weren't for his tragic demise.

He was a terribly broken man. I doubt he would have been competent running a
gas station at night, much less the country. His saving grace was that his
family connections gave him a machine to govern with. There were tons of
"special" insiders that helped facilitate both the philandering junkie and the
presidency. It's those folks that carried the weight during his term. Those
are the ones that did the awesome job.

Still, worked out very well. A good lesson in how regular humans can still be
president, warts and all. As terribly flawed as the man was, he was nowhere
near being the worst U.S. President. And _that_ says something very
interesting about the job.

Yes, he has a very high popularity ranking, and that's all it takes to be
president: being popular.

~~~
ninjac0der
>Apologies for the directness, but JFK was ranked as some kind of awesome
president because he was killed in office, not because of some magic power he
had.

Really? You're holding the secret microphone that allows you to speak for
everyone else?

I can think of loads of reasons JFK stood out as an exceptional President, you
sir are confused.

~~~
swansw
You can think of loads of reasons, but you haven't given any. Being
assassinated young is probably the only thing most people know about JFK. It
isn't rocket science to figure out that most people would see him as a sort of
martyr because of it.

~~~
ninjac0der
Thank you for that deep level of insight into other peoples thoughts.

------
pg
This may seem like mere gossip but actually it's an interesting data point,
not just about JFK but about how things were in the US in the 1960s.

~~~
gohrt
> how things were in the US in the 1960s.

Less different from the 1990s (or 1890s, or 1490s in Europe) then one may have
previously guessed.

~~~
31reasons
It seems Time Dilation occurs much more rapidly as you travel vertically to
power hierarchy than in physics!

------
carsongross
"Anyone who thinks they know what's best for 300 million people is a titanic
asshole. So we're just voting for king of the assholes."

\--Shit My Dad Says

~~~
cbsmith
There's a huge misrepresentation in there that a President thinks they or has
any particular knowledge of what's best. Honestly, that's more like the
legislative branch. ;-)

------
aaron695
I always remember a psychologist commenting on someone asking why Bill
Clinton, most powerful man in the world would risk it all, and their reason
was pretty simple.

The point is the wrong way round, it's why you become the most powerful man in
the world. Power, money, these are all just proxies, even if the people who
have and want them don't know it.

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stfu
Just being curious here: Is there anything "illegal" in that story? Sure,
questionable morals of cause. But it looks a lot like a sexual relationship
between two consenting adults.

~~~
chc
> _Is there anything "illegal" in that story?_

There would be if sexual harassment laws had existed at the time. But at the
time, no, making your employees have sex with you was not illegal.

------
WoodenChair
I love how most of the general public (especially those who lived through it)
think Camelot was so classy... like ya know that time the President asked his
manipulated teenage mistress to blow his best friend in the pool.

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philwelch
> On one excursion, she met Vice President Lyndon Johnson. When she told the
> president about the introduction, he lost his composure.

> “Stay away from him,” he commanded, likely worried that Johnson could use
> knowledge of the affair against him.

This probably wasn't the only reason. For all of JFK's misbehavior, he was
nothing next to LBJ. When one of his secretaries was staying at his ranch,
Johnson confronted her in the middle of the night in her bed, saying "Move
over. This is your president." He was also fond of urinating in public and
once urinated on one of his secret service agents. In another incident, he got
frustrated at some reporters asking why he sent troops to Vietnam, pulled out
his (reportedly large) penis, and said "this is why".

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hudibras
This story is almost two years old, how about putting a (2012) in the title?

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j2d3
Don't know why this in on HN, but I enjoyed reading it. Hot stuff! This
discussion about it looks pretty lame - arguing over whether or not Kennedy
was abusing his power or sexually abusing this woman is ridiculous as it robs
this woman of both her agency as an 18 year old and now. At 18, like it or
not, she was an adult. There is not any "raping" described, and she
acknowledges having thought deeply about why she agreed to do this or that.
She used her own adult (teen, yes, but also adult) mind to decide what to do.
Sure there is a power differential, and in this case an extreme one, but so
what... THERE ALWAYS IS! All relationships, especially sexual relationships,
involve a power differential / dynamic. This is what makes it fun. Each person
is trying to achieve a certain level of "control" over the other, even if that
is done counterintuitively by ceding that sense of control to the other. If
one brutally and forcibly wrests control over the other, then it is rape. But,
if both people are adults making their own decision, then it's simply a
typical human sexual relationship!

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andrewem
This story is from February 2012.

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nichtich
"He taught her how to scramble eggs." Can somebody tell me what exactly is
that? Urban dictionary didn't help much.
[http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=scrambled%20e...](http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=scrambled%20egg)

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xedeon
Two words: Character Assassination.

These seemingly mild form of abuse are precursors to physical violence. You
really have to understand how clandestine operations work to fully grasp the
concept.

I suggest you guys watch/listen to his final speech on youtube and really pay
attention and listen to what he was saying before he got assassinated. Quite a
few of the elite didn't like JFK.

You don't just get rid of someone arbitrarily. Especially if they have a
public following and great influence. You have to destroy their credibility
first and demonize them to prevent the public from inquiring and asking to
many questions.

JFK and Michael Jackson are the prime examples of this. Listen to MJ's songs
and the message he was trying to convey. Does it really align to what he was
accused of? and ohh by the way the F.B.I. realized a statement after his death
saying that none of the accusations were true and that he was innocent.

Never take anything at face value, do the research yourself.

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cfontes
Sorry I am not american.

Is it a fact that this really happened? Or just her word?

Did she work there?

have other people confirmed anything related to it?

Thanks

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headgasket
remind me what this has to do with hackernews? Maybe someone understood jacker
news? Even so, this is not really new...

~~~
michaelpinto
Thank you for saying that! Hacker News use to be an amazing resource — now
it's a tabloid magazine that you'd find in a supermarket

~~~
davidw
Perhaps the people voting up this article think that it qualifies for the
"intellectually gratifying" in the guidelines. In that case, one can only
wonder where in their bodies their "intellects" are located.

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grahamburger
Still a better love story than Twilight.

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jotm
It's good to be the president!

