
Reddit purges 1/2 of The Donald’s moderators – replaces them with approved mods - rhema
https://reclaimthenet.org/the-donald-moderators-purged/
======
Traster
I find it kind of funny that people are getting so excited. Reddit has long
had a policy of banning users who breach the site rules. /r/The_donald has
long had a policy of breaching site rules including brigading, harassment,
threats and sharing personal information. The users of that forum have
literally been linked to public shootings. Given how often the breaches occur
it seems quite reasonable to actually step in.

You'll note that with literally any other sub-reddit, the response to this
behaviour would have simply been to shut down the sub-reddit. How many second
chances do you need? Personally I would've thought the first person shooting
up a restaurant would've been the red line but apparently not.

~~~
s_y_n_t_a_x
That's not true. It's plastered all over not to brigade. NP links are required
to prevent it. Ironically T_D deals with brigading from other subs all the
time.

The mods at T_D have followed every rule to the tee. Other subs are not
expected to control all of their users, but at least to enforce the site
rules, T_D mods have done this. I haven't seen any evidence otherwise. Guilty
until proven innocent if we want to use the fairest judgement standard.

~~~
JMTQp8lwXL
NP links aren't 100% effective in stopping brigading. You can simply remove
the "np." from the URL.

~~~
sdfgdsfgdfg
The point was the mods were following the guidelines to prevent encouragement
of brigading.

Of course you can change the link, any user in any sub can change a link and
brigade, at that point the blame is on the individual, not the group.

I could show you many examples of rule breaking all over Reddit, that doesn't
mean you quarantine the entire sub, there would be nothing left.

------
maverick2007
I personally think that this article buried the lede as far as controversial
Reddit actions go. Users now can be (and have been) banned for upvoting posts
in quarantined subreddits (both on the right - T_D - and the left - Chapo Trap
House - among others). I've seen controversy erupt all around Reddit about
this and it doesn't feel right to me. If the content that people are upvoting
is bad enough to get banned over shouldn't it just be removed from the site
and not left up to upvote?

Edit: the official policy is that only upvoting rule breaking posts will be
cause for banning which makes sense. The Redditors I've heard from claim
differently but are obviously biased. So take what I said with a grain of
salt.

~~~
baybal2
FYI, Reddit's major investors include one big Internet company from Shenzhen

Advance publications is also having huge exposure to China through Condenast's
business in China

~~~
rdtsc
Oh interesting. I thought it was a Conde Nast company.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reddit](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reddit)
says it's headquartered in San Francisco and owned by
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advance_Publications](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advance_Publications)
which is headquartered in NYC. Where do the Chinese come into play?

~~~
dave5104
Tencent invested in reddit's series D financing round in 2019. Can't figure
out what % they "own", but OP implying full ownership is not entirely correct.

Edit: and looks like OP edited their comment to clarify.

------
ortusdux
There is more info & conjecture on r/subredditdrama for those interested:

[https://www.reddit.com/r/SubredditDrama/comments/f9g0t9/redd...](https://www.reddit.com/r/SubredditDrama/comments/f9g0t9/reddit_today_announced_that_it_would_be_removing/)

[https://www.reddit.com/r/SubredditDrama/comments/f9xk6p/cont...](https://www.reddit.com/r/SubredditDrama/comments/f9xk6p/continuing_on_from_yesterdays_shit_show_the_mod/)

------
morley
It's ironic that this publication is ostensibly anti-censorship. One of the
few things I know about this subreddit is how quick they were to delete posts
and ban commenters that didn't fit in with their worldview.

~~~
charwalker
Similary the conservative subreddit has a rule stating it is not a debate
platform and dissent or debate will be removed.

It's an echo chamber of self-victimization that probably sees the Youtube case
earlier this week on first amendment application as both a win for private
companies and a loss of what they consider their right to free speech.

~~~
derision
The same echo chambers exist on the left. I was banned almost immediately from
the Bernie subreddit for asking why he's running on a platform of getting
money out of politics while at the same time being the most aggressive
campaign when it comes to requesting donations. The "I am once again asking
for your financial support" meme perfectly captures this.

~~~
wtallis
> I was banned almost immediately from the Bernie subreddit for asking why
> he's running on a platform of getting money out of politics while at the
> same time being the most aggressive campaign when it comes to requesting
> donations.

It seems like you were rightly banned for being deliberately obtuse.
Pretending that there's no difference between grassroots small money donations
and the kind of money that Sanders wants to eliminate from politics is
straight up trolling. Even if you believe that both categories need to be
eliminated, you didn't start with anything resembling a lead-in to a
reasonable discussion on the matter.

------
XPKBandMaidCzun
Don't know about the politics, but we beat up each other too much:

People end up in groups based on their journey to find someone who validates
their hardship.

In 201x, the process goes something like this:

When we struggle, we reach out for help, and rather than finding articles that
are soothing chicken soup, they're news articles that we are worthy of
contempt based on characteristics we have. The reader may get angered, as
preposterously, some how, a specified group of people's needs and niche
circumstance eclipses everything else. The algorithms leads to a string of
sensational articles about how society needs to be restructured honor the
whims of people based on a trait and exceptional edgecase circumstances.

Respect is conditional based on tribal loyalty and repeating generalized
tropes with religious zeal - if you dare to dissect it as a social
construction - you're out of the club. You're not enlightened, don't get it,
and generally what's wrong with society, somehow.

I think general miserliness and insensitivity create the conditions for people
to resort to unifying over absurd polarizing generalizations above all else.
If our feelings and worth are based on preconditions, I'd assume it'd be
pretty hard to build consensus, cooperate and make everyone feel loved and
cared for.

That said, when people squabble over rhetorical devices instead of unifying to
improve the conditions of legal persons universally, it's great for the stock
market.

------
mrits
What is really happening is reddit is just taking over all the most popular
subreddits. They want to control the main vibe of the site. Understandable for
a corporation but not in line with the original idea of the founders.

~~~
Gunax
You're correct that it isn't surprising.

Best action is to bring this to light. Make everyone aware that Reddit is not
a free speech zone--its a closely monitored and profit-driven business.

~~~
blackflame7000
Yes we all know closely moderated speech has been Reddit's hallmark for
success.

------
macinjosh
Advertising and free discussion do not mix, at all. It is not surprising this
sort of thing is being done by a company whose true customers are their
advertisers, not users. Internet companies who mess with user content to
appease advertisers are going to learn soon enough that they can't serve both
masters at least for anything anyone is very passionate about, like politics.

When I was a kid®, this sort content lived in web forums or newsgroups hosted
by interested parties. You were unlikely to find any of it unless you went
looking for it. It is probably best if it goes back to that.

Internet pro-tip: If you don't want to be beholden to reddit, YouTube,
Twitter, etc. don't use them, it is really that simple.

~~~
viklove
The problem is there aren't many places where free discussion can be had
without ad funding. It's one of the reasons I started plebia.io -- because ad
funded discussion platforms will ultimately make decisions that are in the
best interest of their customers (ad companies), not their users.

I go into more depth in a blog post here:
[https://www.plebia.io/blogs/site/uDIkCFPp2b8+Online-
Discussi...](https://www.plebia.io/blogs/site/uDIkCFPp2b8+Online-Discussion-
Platforms-Have-Changed)

------
shadowgovt
"""

Under these new rules, users can be warned or even suspended for simply
“upvoting policy-breaking content within quarantined communities.”

"""

That's an interesting policy. I can see the benefit if one's goal, as owner of
a forum, is to constrain the tone of the forum.

I wonder how the tone of Hacker News, for example, is changed by users
upvoting comments in clear violation of forum policy.

~~~
jermaustin1
As owner of a large HN dataset (~4M submissions, all the submissions since
starting HNNotify.xyz), I've wanted to do some analysis on this.

Currently I only collect submissions, but it isn't hard to also look at the
users and their age/karma as well.

~~~
runeb
How can you own data that is submitted to a site you don't own? Or do users
submit to hacker news through your site?

~~~
jermaustin1
I do not own it in a legal/licensed sense, I own the bytes that are stored in
my database. As it it is easily queryable by me, where it wouldn't normally be
if only using the API.

~~~
runeb
Ah, thanks for the clarification! English isnt my first language.

------
crystaldev
Worth pointing out that Reddit up/downvotes have been heavily monitored for as
long as Reddit fought voting rings. At least ten years. Any "suspicious"
account has its voting rights neutered: The arrows become placebo buttons.
I've observed this with every Reddit account I've owned (another certain
website does this).

------
sergiotapia
It looks like they've moved to
[https://thedonald.win/](https://thedonald.win/) \- I wonder if they're using
a fork of reddit's old source code. The site feels like a subreddit.

~~~
hombre_fatal
It's far more active than I would have imagined from this sort of splinter
forum. Though it's also the height of T_D drama which lights the perfect fire
under a splinter forum.

~~~
s_y_n_t_a_x
It's been the official website of the T_D subreddit for awhile now.

This is not the first wave of drama T_D mods have dealt with. They've dealt
with quarantines, post-editing, brigading, and ranking algorithm changes,
that's why they have a site already and are using it as a primary platform as
opposed to a backup (although the subreddit still has a much larger user base,
the content is fresher on the main site).

Also, half of America approves of Trump's job, it's not crazy to think that
there's a large amount of traffic, they have to go somewhere online.

~~~
brokensegue
Less than half. About 43% according to 538

~~~
s_y_n_t_a_x
50% according to Gallup

46.4% according to the RCP polling average, within the margin of error to say
half.

[https://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/other/president_tru...](https://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/other/president_trump_job_approval-6179.html#polls)

The average approval rating is strong enough to hold my point that there is a
large number of supporters, do you disagree?

~~~
brokensegue
there's no doubt there is a large number of supporters. the evidence suggests
that number is less than 50%

~~~
jessaustin
Just wait. Next week they'll be trying to impeach him because he asked the
prime minister of Italy for a pizza. By the end of that, he'll be up at about
58%. Good job!

------
swebs
So I tried to visit
[https://www.reddit.com/r/The_Donald/](https://www.reddit.com/r/The_Donald/)
to see what the fuss is about, but apparently Reddit wants me to jump through
hoops to give them my email to even be able to view it. Is there any archive
site or whatever that will let me view this subreddit without giving reddit my
personal information?

~~~
Bozzz
AFAIK, when you make a reddit account it asks you for your email, but you can
just leave that field blank.

~~~
OrgNet
They only make it look like your email address is required... black pattern by
Reddit...

------
Andhurati
What does this do besides drive them to Whatsapp? Indian Nationalist movement
grew to the level it is today in part because of the rapid growth of
Nationalist whatsapp echo-chambers.

~~~
Agenttin
In the end, the reddit admins aren't responsible for moderating whatsapp.
Replacing TD moderators isn't a solution to end white nationalism, it's just
about policing a forum which consistently flaunts site rules. If those people
want to build their own site, with blackjack and hookers, they're more than
welcome to. I mean, that's where Voat came from.

~~~
handedness
Whatever one's personal views, selective enforcement has been used as a stick
with which to beat certain groups and should concern everyone, even if–perhaps
especially if–you aren't a member of the group being beaten at the moment:

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selective_enforcement](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selective_enforcement)

~~~
toomuchtodo
Reddit’s platform, Reddit’s rules. I get to pick and choose who I let yell
from my front yard too, but the sidewalk is mostly fair game.

~~~
handedness
Sure. But selective enforcement of rules on a platform undermines its value as
a platform.

~~~
snowron6
If anything, the_donald has gotten preferential treatment compared to everyone
else. They've routinely broke rules and ignored warnings from admins. If any
other subreddit did what they've done it'd be banned instantly. Instead Reddit
keeps giving r/T_D leeway because they don't want to seem biased.

Here's a list from a year ago of rules they've broken:
[https://old.reddit.com/r/AgainstHateSubreddits/comments/851r...](https://old.reddit.com/r/AgainstHateSubreddits/comments/851rgd/i_compiled_a_list_showcasing_the_donalds_50_worst/)

~~~
DuskStar
I'm not sure that AgainstHateSubreddits is exactly an impartial observer here.
Or anything close to it.

------
floatingatoll
Reddit’s letter to the forum mods:

[https://i.imgur.com/lX83eZV.png](https://i.imgur.com/lX83eZV.png)

~~~
craftyguy
> Sign in required

>This page may contain erotic or adult imagery. You'll need to sign in if you
still want to view it.

Fuck that.

~~~
floatingatoll
That’s usually due to supporters of the forum in question flagging it to
prevent others from viewing it easily. If you have the mobile Imgur app it can
view the link without being signed in.

~~~
prepend
It’s also due to Imgur’s new anti-user policy trying to get more logins.

They could easily have a button to bypass, but require signin. Same with
YouTube and others following this asshole design pattern.

------
ordinaryradical
A theoretical example

1\. I develop a community dedicated to fascism. 2\. I appoint moderators who
are themselves avid ideological defenders of fascism. 3\. Given the motives
for belonging to the subreddit, the users naturally chafe at and violate the
sitewide rules for reddit. They have their own interpretations of how to best
implement and promote fascism. 4\. Because of the moderators' sympathies for
the underlying motives and tendencies, abuse and rule-breaking continues.

Is anyone at fault here other than myself, the moderators, and the users?

PS: This article is poorly written and doesn't actually explain any of actual
things going on in the_donald, it just insinuates a political agenda to this
happening.

~~~
loxs
So, Trump memes are now fascism? Are we going to be surprised (again) when he
wins again?

~~~
ordinaryradical
This is a bad take. I don't follow the_donald or its memes. I'm saying that if
you build a community that is committed to breaking the rules of reddit it's
going to get banned. You can insert knitting for fascism. It's the same across
the board.

~~~
loxs
Only difference is that apparently fascism violates the ToS and knitting does
not.

~~~
ordinaryradical
The actual difference is that certain ideologies attract people who think the
ends justify the means or find transgression itself attractive and amusing;
these qualities in the right combination lead to communities that will
inevitably break the rules and undo themselves.

------
cwperkins
News sites like NYT and WSJ have introduced a featured comments section that
is curated by the editorial team. In order to expose reddit users to different
biases could the politics sub appoint a moderation team “fairly” and pick a
few featured comments to expose reddit users to different leanings?

~~~
creaghpatr
I would venture that reddit subs in "The_Donald" are not there to be exposed
to reddit users of different biases.

~~~
cwperkins
I would argue that that’s true for most reddit users. The US House has rules
for decorum in the political arena where people take turns speaking. Should we
try to recreate that for the politics subreddit?

------
beloch
Reddit has become highly successful as a political discussion forum for people
from pretty much every part of the spectrum, but the moderation is utterly
opaque. Even relatively centrist subreddits, such as /r/Canada, have mods who
ignore the published moderation rules of their own subreddit and do what they
please. If they don't like a thread or post it just disappears, even if it
violated no rule. Reddit's moderation system is designed to prevent users from
seeing how it works.

The result is a cocktail of factors ripe for exploitation:

1\. Some political subreddits have hundreds of thousands of users and are
highly influential.

2\. Mods have unrestricted power and virtually no accountability. Users have
no way to check that moderation is fair and unbiased.

3\. Mods are unpaid and anonymous.

If Russia or China specifically set out to design a way to influence foreign
politics, Reddit would be a fantastic platform to do just that. If you can get
mods in your pocket you can promote or suppress issues to suit whatever agenda
you desire.

If Reddit were going to try to reign in the very worst of its mods,
/r/The_Donald would probably be a good place to start. Most reddit users view
that forum as a cesspool that was quarantined for good reason. However, the
methods Reddit is using here are as opaque as that of the moderators
themselves. There has been no direct communication to users. All the reporting
on this "purge" is sourced from the purged moderators themselves. While I have
no sympathy for the mods of /r/The_Donald whatsoever, the way Reddit is
operating here is indeed reminiscent of a totalitarian state's propaganda
ministry. They permit much, but certain things bring the fist down hard, and
it's done in a way that most people are not meant to see.

If you rely on Reddit for political information then you are making yourself
vulnerable to unknown influences. While reddit is a fantastic resource in many
ways, it's simply not safe to rely upon for certain things.

With most traditional news sources now being owned by a small number of
international conglomerates, there is a real need for alternative forums of
political discussion. Reddit, as it currently exists, should not be that
forum. However, with changes something like Reddit could be made to work. Such
a forum would need to make moderation much more transparent. You can't give
mods the power to simply disappear that which they don't like. Users need to
be able to examine the actions of moderators and question them. Taking away
the toy of unchecked, anonymous power would naturally make it harder to find
mods, so they might actually have to be _paid_. How you make money like Reddit
does without volunteer moderators is a problem worth solving, as is finding a
way to select moderators that can be trusted by the community they serve and
not necessarily the company paying them.

~~~
viklove
This is a huge problem with popular discussion platforms. Users have no
oversight over moderator action, and forums are run like fiefdoms. This can be
a real problem when these forums grow to 100k+ users, and moderators abuse
their power for person gain or just to stroke their own egos.

I'm going to shamelessly plug my own discussion platform
[https://plebia.io](https://plebia.io), where there is total oversight over
all moderator action (a record of deleted posts and banned users), and users
can actually change the rules of their forums and _replace moderators_ through
a voting system. If your mod is absent or abusive, you now have a mechanism to
replace them with someone who is better.

Forums should work best for their users, not their moderators, and most
importantly, not their advertisers (basing a discussion platform on ad revenue
never ends well, which is why Plebia will never run ads of any kind).

------
hcarvalhoalves
Reddit is a private site, and everyone is free to host their own site with
their opinions, right? What’s the problem?

------
iron0013
Any other subreddit would have simply been banned long ago for unremitting and
unrepentant rule breaking and evasion. And by the subreddit moderators
themselves, no less, not just the users!

~~~
commandlinefan
Well, I don’t follow this _that_ closely, but I do sort of follow, and it’s
still not clear exactly what rules they were actually breaking: after all,
Reddit doesn’t have that many. No illegal content, no real names, and no
“group voting” (did I miss any)? Have the mods actually engaged in any of
that? This seems to me to be very selective rule enforcement; every time I’ve
looked through t_d, all I ever saw was silly pro-trump and anti-democrat
pictures.

~~~
floatingatoll
You did not look closely or often enough, and there is sufficient evidence to
disprove your “it seemed fine to me” anecdote.

------
agumonkey
where do these users go ?

~~~
ehvatum
The writing has been on the wall for a very long time, so thedonald.win was
started by r/the_donald moderators in anticipation of the inevitable. That's
the recommended place for r/the_donald users to migrate.

Check out r/worldnews or r/politics for reddit's consensus view of "impartial
moderation". The recent events are to be expected and certainly were.

------
baalimago
The 'frontpage of the internet' is actively taking control of the subreddit of
a presidential candidate, in an election year. I know that HN is highly
against Trump, and probably cheer for this decision, but how is this not a
democratic issue?

~~~
bovermyer
I am continually amazed at how many people believe that "free speech" applies
to anything other than the government.

No government agency is allowed to impede free speech (with a handful of
exceptions). This rule does not apply to any other organization.

~~~
dx87
I'm continually amazed at how many people believe that "free speech" didn't
exist before the 1st amendment was added to the constitution of the USA.

~~~
sixstringtheory
What’s your point? That because in theory you might have been able to say
something without losing your head before the US constitution existed, that
suddenly we should apply constraints meant only for the government to private
entities or citizens? Seems like a non sequitur to me.

~~~
s_y_n_t_a_x
It's funny how pro-capitalistic people get here when this comes up.

Everyone here is big government, anti-censorship, pro-speech, pro-
decentralization, anti-corporation UNTIL conservatives are targeted.

As a conservative (libertarian) yes, legally speaking they can do whatever
they want, but morally speaking, it's fucked up.

Ironic the quote below now applies to the opposite side.

\----

First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out — Because I was
not a Socialist.

Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out — Because I
was not a Trade Unionist.

Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out — Because I was not a
Jew.

Then they came for me — and there was no one left to speak for me.

~~~
sixstringtheory
I see nothing wrong with it according to my morals. Maybe you could expand on
what moral system would force people to interact with trolls. And I’m
surprised to hear from a self-avowed libertarian that doesn’t seem to have
heard of the concept of freedom of association.

The “they” in that poem refers to the Nazi government. Reddit is not a
government. It is people having discussions on a website run by a company.
Everyone has a choice of whether or not to use it; not so with the Nazi
regime.

Have you never had to throw unruly people out of a house party? If not, well
then lucky you, but that’s basically what’s being done here.

~~~
s_y_n_t_a_x
> I see nothing wrong with it according to my morals.

Then you're blinded by bias.

> Maybe you could expand on what moral system would force people to interact
> with trolls.

The members overall aren't trolls and trolling isn't concentrated just in the
T_D. Stopping all trolling is impossible and T_D mods did not encourage it in
anyway. I have yet to see proof in this thread or the Reddit announcements.

> libertarian that doesn’t seem to have heard of the concept of freedom of
> association

I wouldn't mention freedom of association because it's heavily tied into
freedom of speech in the US judicial system (NAACP v. Alabama). It rules that
freedom of association is an essential part of freedom of speech because, in
many cases, people can engage in effective speech only when they join with
others.

> Reddit is not a government.

Well this contradicts your previous point above, but sure let's take this
path. Yes, Reddit can do whatever they want, I noted that above saying it's
legal. That does not mean if makes it right. If the government couldn't do it
because it violates the Constitution then it's wrong in my eyes for a company
to do it, even if they can legally.

> Everyone has a choice of whether or not to use it; not so with the Nazi
> regime.

No they don't, because they are being kicked out and the rules have been
changing specifically for them.

> Have you never had to throw unruly people out of a house party?

Have you ever thrown a small get together and everyone in the block called the
cops because they just hate you and want to see your fun shut down? That's
more what it's like it my eyes.

~~~
sixstringtheory
>> Everyone has a choice

> No they don’t

You misinterpret my point. Nobody is forced to use Reddit. It is a privilege,
not a right or requirement.

> Have you ever thrown a small get together and everyone in the block called
> the cops because they just hate you and want to see your fun shut down?
> That's more what it's like it my eyes.

I disagree this is a better analogy. That would be more like
Twitter/Facebook/etc wielding some power of e.g. regulatory capture to shut
down Reddit.

But you do raise an interesting point. This is like the rule “if you run into
an asshole on your way to work, chances are they’re just an asshole. If
everyone you meet is an asshole, it’s probably just you that’s the asshole.”

If you really have multiple neighbors shutting down your house parties,
chances are much higher you were fucking up, either with the party itself, or
generally in your relations with those neighbors.

Same goes for T_D. It’s much more likely they are the assholes here. Split
hairs all you want, they’re getting kicked out because they just aren’t
pleasant citizens of the site in the opinion of the admins, which at the end
of the day, are the only opinions that matter on _their site._

I won’t hold my breath waiting for thedonald.win to adhere to your moral
system of fairness. Nor would I expect them to with _their own site._

------
vermooten
Good news for once.

------
dylkil
can they do the same for r/bitcoin

------
rhema
I think the approach is bizarre. How will replacing 1/2 of T_D mods with new
management solve anything? What is the goal? I would really like to understand
what is going on in the room when these ideas are presented.

T_D is a cesspool. It's not the only cesspool on Reddit. It is a special
cesspool with special attention and solutions that are tricky, especially in
an election year. At some point, big tech companies are going to have to
articulate their role (wanted or not) in tweaking society.

~~~
wtallis
Reddit is pretty clearly trying to find any viable alternative to outright
banning T_D. They're attempting a proof by exhaustion that the community will
not cooperate with any viable moderation policy. They're rightly afraid to
just pull the trigger and delete the whole subreddit.

There's also some chance that they can get the community in its current form
to die in a more organic and less sudden manner, by expunging enough of the
worst users and behaviors that it is no longer such a self-sustaining
cesspool. Banning mods who directly encourage "shitposting" _by name_ seems
like a reasonable step toward that goal.

~~~
superkuh
If you think shitposting is a "bad" thing that should invoke bans you're a
little bit out of touch with the web jargon.

~~~
wtallis
What obscure and/or twisted definition of "shitposting" are you operating
under where you _don 't_ see it as bad for a forum that's intended to foster
civilized discussion?

If you _want_ shitposting, why would you ever choose a platform that has
moderation and content guidelines in the first place?

~~~
superkuh
> If you want shitposting, why would you ever choose a platform that has
> moderation and content guidelines in the first place?

That's a totally legit argument. People shouldn't. But as someone that was on
reddit from 2008 on there were a few years were it wasn't corporate run and
actually celebrated free speech in both words and policy. Then that changed. I
stopped. But network effect keeps groups there.

