
Fortnite seems to have been removed from the Play Store as well - cinntaile
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.epicgames.fortnite&hl=en_US
======
blunte
Good. The sooner a big well-funded company hits this duopoly wall, the better.
They will have the resources to fight this, and the outcome will hopefully be
positive for all other developers.

Apple and Google are gatekeepers to all mobile devices (practically), but the
value they add as gatekeepers is questionable. Certainly there is some value
in their delivery (and much lesser so, their security) service; but their fees
are not market set (since they are effectively monopolies by device type). If
there were actual competitors, their rates would be much lower... around 2-5%
probably.

~~~
simonh
Android has a plethora of app stores, there have always been tons of them.
Some phones have shipped with three or more, one from Google, one from the
phone manufacturer and one from the network. Then you could add another one
from Amazon, etc, etc.

Google Play Store won out on Android simply because the multitude of stores
was a nightmare for customers. They don’t want multiple stores, they want one
store on this phone, that will also be on their next phone. Any ‘monopoly’
wasn’t seized by Google, it was pushed eagerly on them by customers craving
consolidation and simplicity.

Same for me, I don’t want 5 blasted stores on my iPhone. I want one store and
run by someone I trust. The same goes for my Switch too, I’m quite happy for
Nintendo to run the store for it. If I don’t like how they run it, I’ll get a
PS 5 or XBOX. That’s where the competition is. I have plenty of choices
thanks.

~~~
ocdtrekkie
This is completely false. The Play Store has "won" by Google chopping the legs
off all the alternatives. They have to be sideloaded and you have to enable a
scary checkbox to do so, that suggests it's less secure to use any app store
but the Play Store.

~~~
megablast
Yeah? you think users love hunting down a particular app store becauase that
is the one that has the app you are after???

~~~
untog
If only there was an example of a platform where you downloaded apps from the
web and installed them at your own will!

Oh, wait. It’s what we all did and do with computers. This isn’t some mystical
unknown.

~~~
scarface74
And we see how that worked out. Viruses, malware, ransomware, key loggers, 10
toolbars on your browser.

~~~
untog
Which is where the (existing, robust) system of app permissions comes in.
Something the desktop world never had.

(besides, last time I checked my macOS machine is neither virus ridden nor
covered in toolbars)

~~~
scarface74
Because no one bothered to write viruses for it. There were more viruses for
Windows than Classic MacOS and it was a complete shit show compared to Windows
between 1995 - 2000. It didn’t even have memory protection.

~~~
untog
I’m talking about the macOS I run on my MacBook today. It is not virus ridden
nor covered with unwanted toolbars.

~~~
scarface74
And again it’s because no one bothered to write toolbars and viruses for the
Mac. I never got viruses on a Windows PC but are you going to say they don’t
exist? You never had to clean up your less tech savvy relatives computer?

~~~
untog
What I’m saying is that the vast, vast majority of desktop users have an
entirely satisfactory computing experience today, using operating systems that
let you install whatever you want.

Yes, if you go back in time you find OSes with hideous security models that
made things like keyloggers possible. Mobile OSes today do not have those
problems, and have strict permission prompts that gatekeep functionality.

Yeah, I’m sure there would be some shitty experiences if people could install
whatever they want on their phones, it’s the price of giving everyone that
freedom. But if desktop OSes in 2020 are anything to go by, it’s really not
that big of an issue.

~~~
scarface74
So the whole ransomware and virus problem is imaginary?

------
bigtones
The real reason Epic Games did this... Money - they were forced to hand over
more than $500 Million dollars to Apple and Google in the past 12 months
alone. That's $1.3 Million dollars per day.

Epic gave Apple over $360 Million dollars in the last twelve months just to
list the game in it's app store, and over $150 Million to Google to do the
same. By any measure, having to hand over half a billion dollars is just an
insane cut of revenue to have to give two companies that had absolutely
nothing to do with conceiving, designing or developing such a successful game.

[https://www.nytimes.com/2020/08/13/technology/apple-
fortnite...](https://www.nytimes.com/2020/08/13/technology/apple-fortnite-
ban.html)

~~~
Ductapemaster
"...absolutely nothing to do with conceiving, designing or developing such a
successful game."

But it has _everything_ to do with _distributing_ the game. Also it has a lot
to do with outsourcing the maintenance of the mobile platforms — designing
hardware, OS releases, etc. Epic did not design their own hardware, their own
silicon, build entire global supply chains, design UX, etc. Apple and Google
did. Do they not deserve a cut?

I'm not here arguing the percentage of the revenue, just that that _some_
percentage is clearly warranted here. Their relationship with Apple and Google
is clearly a partnership, meaning it has to benefit both sides. Same way it
works with consoles.

~~~
wvenable
> But it has everything to do with distributing the game.

Because they're the only option. I mean there's no reason why Epic couldn't
host the app on their server that people could download. It's not without
precedent. But it's just not allowed for mobile.

> designing hardware, OS releases, etc. Epic did not design their own
> hardware, their own silicon, build entire global supply chains, design UX,
> etc. Apple and Google did. Do they not deserve a cut?

Seriously? You think Epic should have to pay for the hardware that we
consumers buy for thousands of dollars? Apple has some of the highest hardware
margins in the world. They don't need software developers to pay for the
hardware that we've already paid too much for. These aren't consoles sold for
a loss.

~~~
interpol_p
> Because they're the only option. I mean there's no reason why Epic couldn't
> host the app on their server that people could download. It's not without
> precedent. But it's just not allowed for mobile.

Didn't they move to the Google Play Store (from their own download manager)
specifically because sideloading was too hard and scary for customers that it
was having an impact on Fortnite installs?

Having the option wouldn't be enough for Epic even if it were available on
iOS, because it wasn't enough for them on Android

~~~
wvenable
Well Google specifically doesn't make it easy or safe to install apps from
other sources. But there's no reason why it couldn't be just as simple and
safe as getting it from the app store.

The problems mentioned below are really only possible because Google kind of
leaves everyone to the wolves when it comes to sideloading.

~~~
interpol_p
Epic's quote at the time was the following:

> Google puts software downloadable outside of Google Play at a disadvantage,
> through technical and business measures such as scary, repetitive security
> pop-ups for downloaded and updated software, restrictive manufacturer and
> carrier agreements and dealings, Google public relations characterizing
> third party software sources as malware, and new efforts such as Google Play
> Protect to outright block software obtained outside the Google Play store.

------
soulofmischief
A lot of people are giving Epic a hard time for this, but I think it takes
quite a bit of gusto to disrupt such an insane moneymaker in order to rally
its userbase against these anti-competitive practices.

~~~
MBCook
Really? I don’t think I’ve seen anyone today with an anti-Epic take. Maybe I
just haven’t gone down far enough in the comments.

~~~
echelon
Twitter has Apple fans rushing to criticize Epic. I'm absolutely flabbergasted
the freedom disruption blinders are so strong.

Why _anyone_ supports Apple is a mystery to me. What if the web forced you to
use Apple Payments? What if Microsoft forced all installs to go through the
Microsoft Store?

Apple took focus from the web and then extinguished openness. It's tyranny.

~~~
bhupy
I'll try and play devil's advocate for you.

Apple recently rolled out "Sign-In With Apple", which creates burner e-mail
address that you can seamlessly use with 3rd party services. As a privacy-
conscious consumer, this was great! On top of that, Apple forced all of its
developers to support "Sign-In With Apple". This is one of the many reasons I
continue to use Apple's phone and OS, because it gives me some peace of mind.

Apple Payments, similarly, gives me some financial peace of mind by providing
me with one centralized place where I can view and cancel my
subscriptions/purchases. I can't tell you how many times I've forgotten to
unsubscribe from a service that I don't use. With Apple's in-app payments
system, I can keep tabs on _everything_. It's like a user-friendly financial
reconciliation layer.

Both of these Apple services place some amount of burden on the developer, and
I'd even argue that the first example was pretty broadly celebrated by
privacy-minded HN readers. The strongest devil's advocate argument is that the
second example provides the same value to Apple customers, and that's a
distinguishing feature of its platform that it ought to be able to maintain.

There's a strong argument to be made that one ought to be able to side-load
apps and install competing app stores on their iPhones (I tend to agree), but
that's somewhat orthogonal to this particular issue, especially considering
the Google Play Store action.

~~~
paulgb
I think there are basically two ways to look at Apple's App Store policies:

1\. Apple acts like a sort of consumer union, coordinating behavior of a
massive and lucrative audience so that apps have to meet certain minimum
standards to reach it.

2\. Apple acts like a protection racket, extracting a piece of the consumer
surplus because they can.

It seems that you like the benefits of #1, and I agree with you. The problem
is that in the Fortnite case, it appears to be a case of #2 posturing as #1.
Does anyone truly believe that Fortnite players are _better off_ paying 30%
more to Apple?

~~~
JumpCrisscross
This is a good framework. One way to merge these views is with a graduated
take rate. So Apple might take 30% of the first $10mm, 20% of the next $10mm
and $10% thereafter.

------
reissbaker
This is also bad, but Google still allows Android users to install Epic's game
store (which does continue to list Fortnite), so I think it's a bit more
defensible than Apple's ban in which it's now just impossible to install the
game at all. Removing from the Play Store on Android isn't equivalent to
removing from the App Store on iOS; you can install apps from outside of the
Play Store on Android, but you can't install apps from outside of the App
Store on iOS (at least, not without jailbreaking).

~~~
ridiculous_fish
Epic already tried to make a run of it outside the Play Store, and gave up,
citing Google's efforts to "outright block software obtained outside the
Google Play store." I don't think there's a practical difference here.

~~~
reissbaker
If I go to fortnite.com/android, I can still download and install the Epic
Game Store for Android. So it's definitely better than the situation on iOS.
In practice, you can still install Fortnite on Android (and it's only a Google
search away — when I searched "fortnite android" just now, it was the top hit
of the search results, just after the News section that's filled with the news
of the Play Store ban); you can't install Fortnite on iOS at all.

It's actually even slightly easier to install APKs on Android than installing
non-Mac-App-Store software on macOS — with Android it prompts you right when
you open to allow or disallow installs from the source you downloaded from,
whereas macOS makes you dig around in Settings the first time. I tried
installing the Epic store just now on Android, and it was a fairly seamless
experience.

I'm sure it gets fewer sales, since the Play store is bundled with most
Android phones and the Epic store isn't. But it's pretty different than an
outright ban: the Play store is charging you the 30% Google tax for
reach/audience, but you're free to list on an alternative store if you choose
to.

------
ivanstojic
It's important to remember that Epic games isn't a champion of freedom here.

After Epic store launched on the PC in 2018, Epic used their platform's
growing popularity to bait and/or strong arm (it's unclear to me) indie
developers into exclusivity contracts on Epic's game store. This action caused
a massive uproar in the gaming community because with those exclusivity deals,
Epic made developers break existing preorders.

This isn't about freedom or choice or walled gardens. It's about cutting off a
slightly bigger slice of a billion dollar pie.

~~~
el_nahual
I happen to know some first-time indie devs that were given this deal. The
deal is incredibly generous. Basically, epic offered them a bag of money in
exchange for a certain period of partial exclusivity (basically "don't be on
Steam"). That's it. This bag of money allowed the developers to:

\- Grow the dev team enough to accelerate time to launch--QA extra engineers,
heck, the devs even used the money to pay for _porting the game to other
devices!_

\- Guarantee that they could continue to fund development of the game after
launch. Bugfixes, DLC, etc.

\- Have enough left over to "try again" and launch a sophomore game regardless
of the performance of this one.

You'd think that fans of indie games would _love_ this. Who could possibly be
opposed to having an indie dev get funds that would enable them to graduate to
managing a small indie game studio instead of a ramen diet & 20 hour work days
in the living room.

And yet they got enormous amounts of hate from so-called indie game fans and
members of the gaming community. And yes, the devs were aware that the hate
was coming from a disproportionately small number of people and that most
people don't actually care at all. But still, the psychological toll of having
to deal with the harassment was enough to make them strongly consider not
taking the money--even though it was the right thing to do both from a
financial pov and from a development pov (because it would guarantee they
could finish and support the game).

The crazy thing is that _even if you hate epic_ you should love these deals:
cheer for your favorite dev, then wait a year and buy the game on Steam,
doubly sticking it to the man.

~~~
donmcronald
Exclusives on consoles suck, but the Epic store has been a huge win for
developers and gamers. Bags of money, more choice, and competition and the
only downside is needing to install an extra launcher. Yes please!

~~~
shuntress
Important distinction: this is choice and competition for the developers but
not for the consumers.

It would be choice and competition for the consumer if users could access any
game through either platform and choose their favorite.

------
627467
Good for Epic to open this new battle front against Apple (and it seems
Google).

As I wrote in the Apple thread: I think Epic are the ideal entity to do this
since - so long as Apple or Google won't actively erase apps from people
devices - they already have large install base and it's unlikely to grow much
more.

Those who managed to install the latest update are already able to use epic
"apple/google tax"less payment system so that protects their revenue for a
while.

If either of those para-monopolies start erasing apps from people's phone's
that would only add to the narrative that Epic, Spotify, EU et al. are already
pushing: these two entities have built a global extractive platform that keeps
partners and consumers hostage by their fees.

------
mcint
It may not just be for a lawsuit. They may provide fuel for a change of law,
as Congress bumbles through an attempt at anti-trust enforcement, maybe they
can become a test case for lawmakers looking for loss of competition and
consumer choice. (Although existing lobbying dollars from Google, Apple,
Facebook, & company may be effective in holding back representatives. Money in
hand, in election season no less.)

Epic Games can show just how much the on-going appstore tax prevent new
business models from taking hold. They shown an incredible ability to entice
people to separate from their money, even convinced Disney?! to partner for
branded content.

Alongside Epic Games licensing of the Unreal Engine at-or-below cost (12%
[1]), I believe Sweeney's commitment to growing a "Metaverse" market at the
expense of Epic's short-term profit.

This comes alongside EPIC(.org)'s comparisons about American vs Chinese &
emerging markets competitiveness, linked today [2].

[1]:
[https://www.matthewball.vc/all/themetaverse](https://www.matthewball.vc/all/themetaverse)
[2]: [https://epic.org/foia/epic-v-ai-
commission/EPIC-19-09-11-NSC...](https://epic.org/foia/epic-v-ai-
commission/EPIC-19-09-11-NSCAI-FOIA-20200331-3rd-Production-pt9.pdf)

~~~
mschuster91
Isn't Congress on summer vacation and then they'll all be fighting for
reelection anyway? I hardly doubt anything will get passed until next year if
it's not important enough to get a bipartisan vote.

------
nsgoetz
The Google statement really feels like they're subtweeting Apple:

> The open Android ecosystem lets developers distribute apps through multiple
> app stores. For game developers who choose to use the Play Store, we have
> consistent policies that are fair to developers and keep the store safe for
> users. While Fortnite remains available on Android, we can no longer make it
> available on Play because it violates our policies. However, we welcome the
> opportunity to continue our discussions with Epic and bring Fortnite back to
> Google Play.

------
jay_kyburz
I look forward to putting my game Neptune's Pride in the Epic Games store and
using PayPal to collect payments.

~~~
DetroitThrow
I had been trying to remember the name of this game for over a year now, my
few Google searches for "long term space strategy mmo" never yielded anything.
I love that hackernews seems to dredge up the interesting parts of the net.

Anyways, Neptune's Pride is very very fun and I can't wait to play it again!

~~~
jay_kyburz
Hello DetroitThrow! Glad to hear my not very subtle plug for the game might
get at least one player back!

------
Andrew_nenakhov
I won't stop telling this: mobile platforms need not only third party app
stores, but third party push notifications services too. Both iOS and Android
love to kill apps in the background. This behavior, sans push notifications,
cripples a lot of types of applications (chiefly, all messengers).

If there ever would be some legal pressure on Apple& Google to open up their
platforms, it is important to make this point known to legislators.

~~~
user5994461
Applications have to be paused to save battery, or killed to save memory. You
can lookup the Android doc since the first version 10+ years ago, it explains
very well the lifecycle of apps. Mobile devices would be unusable if it were
not for that.

~~~
Andrew_nenakhov
This obvious thing you say doesn't change the fact that there is no a way to
wake an app from sleep without FCM push notifications or running a background
service with persistent notification (which users hate), which has a lot of
restrictions that get tighter with every new version of Android.

------
TillE
I really don't see how Epic has a leg to stand on here, not on a platform
which allows sideloading. The Apple case is complicated, but this seems like a
straightforward violation of an entirely voluntary contract.

~~~
dannyw
Microsoft got pinged for pre-installing Internet Explorer.

Android could potentially get pinged for pre-installing Play Market and not
offering a choice.

~~~
dagmx
Doubtful. Android can be customized by the OEMs and many do provide alternate
stores preloaded. They'd have to go after Pixel phones (not a massive market
share) or after the requirement to use Play services to be in the store.

------
drusepth
Not commenting on whether Fortnite should or shouldn't have been removed from
either app store, but wanted to point out one HUGE difference between Android
and iOS here:

Removing Fortnite from the iOS store wholly removes the ability for people to
download and play Fortnite on iOS devices, unless they're jailbroken.

Removing Fortnite from Google Play does no such thing. It's still readily
available to download and play from other app stores and/or Epic directly. No
need to jailbreak or root.

This is a huge difference in paradigms that'll probably go overlooked with
headlines of "Apple and Google remove Fortnite from app stores".

I think this is why Epic is so ready to "take on Apple" (see: their Nineteen
Eighty-Fortnite ad). This'll be a legal battle that's exciting to see,
especially in the current/brewing anti-big-tech political climate.

------
leereeves
Confirmed by The Verge, who got a statement from Google:

> The open Android ecosystem lets developers distribute apps through multiple
> app stores. For game developers who choose to use the Play Store, we have
> consistent policies that are fair to developers and keep the store safe for
> users. While Fortnite remains available on Android, we can no longer make it
> available on Play because it violates our policies. However, we welcome the
> opportunity to continue our discussions with Epic and bring Fortnite back to
> Google Play.

[https://www.theverge.com/2020/8/13/21368079/fortnite-epic-
an...](https://www.theverge.com/2020/8/13/21368079/fortnite-epic-android-
banned-google-play-app-store-rule-violation)

~~~
crazysim
It's definitely a statement that's very aware of the situation on iOS.

------
brundolf
It's _fascinating_ that Google is deciding to form a unified front with Apple
instead of playing the "good guy" and taking an opportunity to paint their
competitor in a bad light. It really betrays just how important that 30% fee
must be to them. The plot just keeps thickening.

------
tony
If anyone likes to follow app store case law, Oyez has the verbal arguments
for Apple v Pepper that follow with text captions:
[https://www.oyez.org/cases/2018/17-204](https://www.oyez.org/cases/2018/17-204)

[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_Inc._v._Pepper](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_Inc._v._Pepper)

------
jandrese
As I see it this improves their chances of winning the suit. By having Google
act in the same manner they have a stronger case that the market is a duopoly
that restricts customer's freedom.

Remember that courts tend to be very lenient towards business practices, so it
takes egregious behavior to convince them to step in. This bolster's Epic's
position.

------
jonplackett
This is a PR move. They would have known they’d get kicked off for adding
their own payment system.

They didn't make this in the time it took Apple to reject it. It's all pre-
planned

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N6B4glqJFz0&feature=emb_rel_...](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N6B4glqJFz0&feature=emb_rel_end)

~~~
MereInterest
So? That something is predictable does not make it ethically right. That Epic
could predict Apple enforcing its monopoly does not make it right for Apple to
have a monopoly.

~~~
cvandebroek
Epic is also not ethically right. They shamelessly make their money on minors
and pretend to do good for the gamers.

~~~
adtac
What's wrong with that? Besides, how Epic makes money is irrelevant to this
discussion. Your statement is blatant whataboutism.

(FWIW I despise many of Epic's decisions, particularly their hostile attitude
towards Linux as a platform, so no, I'm not biased towards them.)

~~~
cvandebroek
It's not irrelevant when you start argueing about being ethical.

Besides that, Epic themselves play Gatekeeper through the Epic Game Store and
pay big money to ensure they are the Gatekeeper (excluding retail and other
platforms), made on kids by loot boxing them.

------
rangewookie
the 1984 ad is a little strange TBH. Apple was saying IBM wants to control the
future of all information in this country, so come join us instead. Epic is
saying, we want more money so standby while we go to court. Where is the epic
smart phone alternative which is going to save us from the apple monopoly?

It will be better for all developers if the gatekeepers lower their rates, but
epic really doesn't strike me as a white knight here.

~~~
kmonsen
I agree with the spirit here, what we really want are more phone operating
systems and competition that way.

They are of course really hard to make ...

~~~
suby
The problem is that app stores are charging 30%. More Operating Systems and
competition would be good, but it's not going to fix the problem. After all,
Steam takes a 30% cut, and they've got a client for multiple desktop operating
sytems, as well as numerous stores competing against them (Windows Store, Mac
Store, Itch.io, GoG, Humble, Greenman gaming, tons more). Normal people are
just not going to install another operating system on their phone, or app
store for that matter.

Apple or Google may cave in this particular case because Epic has some
leverage with their userbase, but I'd be shocked to see either of them lower
the rates for anyone other than Epic. I think it's going to take legislation
to fix this.

------
mulmen
I'm confused, the other story on this is " _Apple_ kicked Fortnite off the app
store". Did Google coincidentally do the same thing? Did Epic actually pull
their game in both places?

~~~
3PS
Epic pushed a server-side update which gave users on both iOS and Android
access to discounted prices that sidestepped the usual 30% cut to Apple or
Google. This was a violation of terms of service on both platforms, so
Fortnite was removed from both the App Store and the Play Store. Epic already
knew this would happen, which is why they prepared their PR and legal teams
accordingly.

------
z3t4
One reason for the duopoly is that it cost more to have your app on more
platforms. Its a disaster that for example government apps like id only works
on the latest ios or android. There are also Sailfish, FirefoxOS, bunch of
feature phone OS, and likely a lot I dont know of. The duopoly is self
inflicted by the software industry.

------
Aissen
It seems Google is still using the same tactics it used to kill Skyhook (Maps
competitor on wifi location), and probably most GApps competitors: they
blocked Oneplus from bundling the Epic launcher with system permissions
(allows updates in background, like the Play Store):

[https://www.androidpolice.com/2020/08/13/google-
reportedly-b...](https://www.androidpolice.com/2020/08/13/google-reportedly-
blocked-oneplus-from-pre-installing-the-epic-games-app-on-its-phones/)

------
dustinmoris
It's important to remember that Apple and Google only have a Duopoly, because
nobody else seems to be able to develop anything that is remotely appealing to
customers. Microsoft tried with their own mobile operating system many years
ago and they failed at every attempt.

If Apple was told to open its App Store they could literally just shut down
their App Store instead the next day and in a few days or weeks consumers all
around the world would put too much pressure on any legislator to revert their
changes, because not a single consumer cares about Epic, but everyone cares
about their iPhone to remain as awesome as it is today, ad part of it is
Apple's walled garden.

~~~
gizmodo59
I don’t see Apple shutting down App Store even for spite. Not sure their
operating expenses on App Store but if they reduce their cut, it won’t look
bad on the books.

------
gumby
I really don’t understand the argument about Apple’s store, when Apple has
only 20-25% of the installed base and the dominant platform has many stores to
choose from.

Customers are plainly choosing the open platform.

~~~
partiallypro
First off, that's globally, not the US (in the US it's ~50/50.) Secondly,
despite Apple not having a "monopoly" on the install base they do essentially
have a monopoly on store expenditures and revenue. There is a reason why Apps
launch on iOS first (usually), AppStore members are more likely to buy the app
and do in-app purchases than Android users. This is BY FAR. I forgot the exact
numbers, but I believe it's near double or triple that of Android. The
AppStore is a cash register for Apple, 30% is insanity.

------
Mandatum
What happens to players who refund everything from these stores once the apps
are no longer accessible? Does Apple or Google just eat the cost? I presume
Epic has already been paid out, it seems like Apple and Google wouldn't be
able to claw back that refund money.

------
BooneJS
Will my kid be able to buy new skins with something other than vbucks when
this is all said and done?

------
grawprog
Was fortnite on the play store? A few months ago I decided to try it for
android, I had to download the epic games store app from their site and
install it from there. This was in like February or something.

------
FridgeSeal
I can do nothing but laugh - I have precisely zero sympathy for Epic here.

------
social_quotient
Did this decision likely get made before the meeting with congress? Curious
the lag time on corporate decision making on something like this.

The fight was bound to happen but I’m fascinated by the timing.

------
tibbydudeza
Hey does TenCent not own a big chunk of Epic ???.

It would be great for Huawei if this whole closed appstore ecosystem would be
broken up and give customers the freedom of choice.

------
bredren
I thought they required an install from their Epic Games app store on Android,
specifically to get around Google Play fees.

~~~
mcny
They did. Seems like it only changed in April. Maybe they wanted to see the
numbers and gather data.

[https://archive.fo/Z0huU](https://archive.fo/Z0huU)

~~~
bredren
Huh. I presume these numbers will look very bad for Google. There are no
extra-app store options on iOS.

If lowering the cost of app sales royalties to all 3rd developers is the only
result of this, I'd say this will be worth it.

------
skc
Google may have missed a great PR opp here.

~~~
SquareWheel
I'm sure they weighed that against setting a precedent that developers can
sidestep their 30% cut. The income was probably considered more valuable than
the PR.

~~~
dragonwriter
> I'm sure they weighed that against setting a precedent that developers can
> sidestep their 30% cut

That precedent is being set anyway, the Epic Games store still exists on
Android, and you can get Fortnite through it, and this dispute can't do
anything but bring more attention to that fact.

Of course, that kind of does show a way in which they are better for devs and
consumers than Apple, since dispute over store terms with devs are less of a
total barrier to delivering/selling (for devs) or getting access to (for
consumers) apps on the platform.

------
csneeky
The link leads to nothing? Has been removed? (Sorry if late to the game but
seems no one has mentioned this yet)

------
quotemstr
Totally not coordinated at all. That Google and Apple have been completely
consistent on demonetization, censorship, and general fuckery is just a
coincidence. That the principal people involved all hail from the Bay Area and
have similar social circles doesn't matter. Nope, no antitrust problem here,
no cartel, no siree.

------
chrisan
Don't xbox and playstation also take a 30% cut on sales?

------
tomcam
Apple and Google are totally not acting like a cartel.

------
muyuu
Any official statements released?

------
damnyou
I've been very critical of Apple, but Google deserves the same as well. Hope
Epic files a lawsuit against Google too.

~~~
dragonwriter
Since there are alternative stores on Android (incluid Epic’s own, which,
IIRC, they used Fortnite exclusivity to launch), to which developers
demonstrably do resort if Google's pricing or other terms become unfavorable,
there's a lot weaker antitrust argument with Google Play.

~~~
damnyou
I use Android with alternate app stores everyday, so I'm intimately familiar
with the issues with them. The most prominent ongoing issue is that they can't
auto-update apps the way Google's can. It's not a level playing field.

------
baby-yoda
the enemy (aapl/goog) of my enemy (antitrust regulators) is my friend?

~~~
markus_zhang
No but you want them to fight at least

------
Datsundere
This is exactly what DHH fought over apple to get their app approved in the
play store. If you still think that having to pay 25% of your profit just to
list your product that you didn't even use their tools to make, then you're
insane.

------
scott31
As a Fortnite player, its time to buy an iPhone then

~~~
tveita
You might have missed some steps of this still developing story:
[https://twitter.com/markgurman/status/1293984069722636288](https://twitter.com/markgurman/status/1293984069722636288)

------
lwansbrough
Crazy number of boot lickers in these threads.

------
teknopurge
This is going to backfire for Epic. I see both sides, however, the App Stores
have overhead to support free apps, and they need to be compensated.

If a software developer has an issue with the distribution channel, then they
can make their own, including the R&D and operate expense for the hardware. I
know, really unpopular take. Bigger question is are Apple and Google (with
hardware/software ecosystems) deserving of Bell-style regulation? The US
already has a playbook for this.

~~~
wvenable
According to another comment here, Epic paid Apple over $360 Million dollars
in the last twelve months. I'm pretty sure Apple's overhead isn't so high that
they need to charge that much money for just one application.

Epic already has a distribution channel, payment processing, the whole 9
yards, what they don't have is anyway onto the hardware that you own.

~~~
teknopurge
The amount paid to Apple is not a factor - it's what the agreement was. If
that 360 MM is 30%, then we can also say I doubt Epic has over a billion in
overhead. I do not believe the point is valid.

Epic does have a way onto the phones: provide an easy way for User's to
jailbreak them as part of the ingress to the Epic distribution channel.

"In 2010 and 2012, the U.S. Copyright Office approved exemptions that allowed
smartphone users to jailbreak their devices legally,[62] and in 2015 the
Copyright Office approved an expanded exemption that also covers other all-
purpose mobile computing devices, such as tablets"

So all Epic needs to do is assume the cost and investment of managing the
inter-dependencies of the hardware with various other pieces of software,
including their distribution channel.

------
Wowfunhappy
IMO, this was Epic's one misstep—they should have pulled Fortnite from the
Google Play Store a week before this stunt. Apple is the big fish (revenue-
wise) with the most draconian policy. Provoking two giants at once was not
necessary.

Every other aspect of how Epic played this has been brilliant IMO.

~~~
wvenable
I disagree. This proves that one can be shut out of the almost the entire
mobile software market in a single day.

Apple is not a monopoly but Apple and Google together have just shown the
incredible power they wield.

~~~
kmonsen
Of course you can when you break the terms of services. Try adding some porn
to your game and see it gone from both stores in a day as well. Or some other
way to obvious break their terms.

~~~
wvenable
This is a protest and a law suit against those terms of service. They have to
break them to even have a case.

~~~
Wowfunhappy
But the protest works is they're doing something which ought to be allowed. If
Epic got pulled from the App Store for suddenly showing pornography, I don't
think they'd get much sympathy.

------
emadabdulrahim
Epic will lose this fight, because they initiated it the wrong way.

You just don't start a law suite by violating the terms, then go ahead and cry
about it.

~~~
ffggvv
where did you get your law degree?

~~~
emadabdulrahim
Epic Games, obviously.

------
wetpaws
I predicted it one hour ago -
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24149151](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24149151)

~~~
taytus
Take it easy Nostradamus.

