

Apple design chief Jonathan Ive is knighted - T-zex
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-18171093

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jacquesm
Knighthoods derive from Royalty and as such I'm categorically against them.

I'll never be offered one but if that were the case I'd refuse on the grounds
that by accepting I would implicitly recognize the fact that there are more
than one kinds of people.

But good for Jonathan Ive that his contributions are recognized, too many
people like that never get any recognition at all so from that point of view
this is positive.

~~~
Tyrannosaurs
I'm not sure what protesting the historical origins of the knighthood really
achieves.

These days they're awarded by the democratically elected government and the
royal family's role in it is purely ceremonial. Whichever member of the royal
family carries out the ceremony is basically a paid actor on behalf of that
state in this context.

~~~
jacquesm
It's not historical, see:

<http://www.royal.gov.uk/MonarchUK/Honours/Knighthoods.aspx>

~~~
Tyrannosaurs
Thank you but I'm British, I really don't need to have it explained to me what
I knighthood is.

The whole Royal family works in two ways - the theoretical what they (or more
usually the Queen) can do, and the way it actually works.

In theory the Queen can veto any law, could decide who to knight herself and
so on but in reality this doesn't happen for the simple reason that the minute
she did we the people would advance on Buckingham Palace with torches and
pitchforks and burn the place to the ground. She is very much the Queen
because the people and the government allow her to be, whatever the
technicalities of the law say.

The reality of the situation is that the democratically elected government
(sort of, see the House of Lords below) make all the decisions and the Queen
merely "endorses them" (though even that suggests she has a say in it which
she doesn't in any real way).

Do the Royal family have influence? Yes they do, but I'd suggest it's really
no more than anyone else with that much money has (look at Adrian Beescroft
right now) and they're far better than most with that much money in this sense
as they're aware that they should remain neutral and do so. Generally the
worst that happens is that Prince Charles runs his ill informed mouth about
homoeopathy and architecture.

It's an odd system and no-one in their right mind would design one like it but
as it operates now it's really not that broken.

If you want to take a swipe at something can I suggest the unelected House of
Lords which has genuine power over the laws of the land and frequently uses
it?

And even they tend to be a force for good, curbing the worst excesses of
successive governments, though I may be more positively inclined towards them
than I could otherwise be as I detest the current government so like that the
Lords are giving them the run around.

~~~
jacquesm
Sorry, simply having a Royal class is paying lip-service to a state of affairs
that is unhealthy.

How it actually works because people (or more specifically, parliament) don't
feel like aligning theory and practice is not my problem.

If to the law there are more than one kinds of people then you may say that in
theory it isn't like that however in practice this has all kinds of real
effects and these will remain as long as Royalty is not formally abolished.

Knighthoods are one of those effects, another is the fact that people of
'royal blood' are to some extent above the law. And are protected in ways that
no commoner would ever be protected.

On top of that it is still hereditary rule, you may be Knighted but your
children will never accidentally be born King or Queen. And to me that is just
plain wrong, ceremonial or not.

~~~
JonnieCache
My argument in favor of keeping the royalty can be summed up in one vomit
inducing phrase:

President Cameron.

 _Shiver..._

~~~
panacea
I honestly think that the monarchy represents 'god' in the UK political
system. And Lizzie has behaved as a decent omnipotent hands-off nothing. Far
better that, than a bunch of US politicians running around ostensibly in the
service of an invisible "higher power".

~~~
Tyrannosaurs
As head of the Church of England she quite literally represents God in the UK
political system...

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Tyrannosaurs
A couple of things to note about Jony Ive. One, he's from Chingford, a
painfully unfashionable suburb of London in Essex, the brunt of most
geographically targeted UK humour.

And two: he studied at Newcastle Polytechnic (as I believe it was then), about
as far as you can get from the hallowed halls of Oxford and Cambridge (both
physically and metaphorically) whilst still staying in higher education in the
UK.

In short - it's not where you come from, it's what you do.

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sgt
This whole knighting business is a bit dubious if you ask me, however if
anyone deserves it, I think Jonathan is one of them. He's really achieved so
much and inspired millions of people, whether that inspiration came directly
or indirectly.

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TazeTSchnitzel
Dubious? What's dubious about nationally recognising one person's
achievements? Britain is hardly the only country to do it, anyway.

~~~
unwind
I can't speak for the grandparent, but one obvious thing is of course that
being knighted seems to bring with it "more" respect from people,
automatically (being addressed as Sir, for instance).

This is not very compatible with the idea that all humans have equal value,
it's rather the opposite. It's very much a "class society" thing, at least in
some respects.

Note: I'm not saying I oppose, I'm trying to explain _what could be dubious_
about the concept.

~~~
arethuza
'It's very much a "class society" thing'

Given that knighthoods are usually handed out based on merit I think that's
pretty much the opposite of the UK class system (which is _not_ based
primarily on wealth and therefore doesn't have an implicit link to merit).

~~~
sambeau
Cough. Splutter.

While the lower orders of knights are generally given out on merit the higher
orders are not. At least as far as I'm concerned.

The UK Class System is inherently based on a pecking order and the top of the
pecking chain is kept for those who are more anointed than useful.

Take a look at this list. It is two orders higher than most Knights (and
therefore two orders more special). Are they two orders more deserving?

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Victorian_Order>

~~~
arethuza
I guess my comment (note the "mostly") was based on the assumption that more
of the bog standard knighthoods are handed out rather than the fancy ones.

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reason
Congratulations to him!

Although people will often credit Jobs with the creation of Apple's products,
it's great that Jony is getting recognition here. I can't even imagine the
amount of time and effort he and his team must've put in to developing their
designs.

With the industrial design of products like the iPhone or MacBook, every
single dimension must be precisely calculated. There's no "eh, it's a bit off,
but that'll do" like what we may do with web apps. The number of concepts and
iterations they must've gone through is staggering, I'm sure.

Edit: It's sad to see only two other commenters recognizing Ive's
achievements. It seems now that almost every single accomplishment posted to
HN is questioned, overanalyzed and criticized out of what is likely a place of
envy. We don't need your commentary on the social ramifications of
knighthoods. If that's your reaction to a post like this, then you need to
seriously reassess your perspective.

~~~
JonnieCache
I would argue the exact opposite: celebration of apple and their achievements
is a subject that has been done to death on here and elsewhere. Everyone here
takes Ive's achievements as a given. Discussion of the social ramifications of
knighthoods is likely to be much more fruitful. It certainly seems that way
from this instance.

~~~
reason
This isn't about Apple, though. This is about Jony Ive. And although people
here might know who he is and what influence he's had over the years with
creating such iconic designs, I highly doubt that the every day person on the
street knows.

This is simply about him gaining public recognition. Nothing more.

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sparknlaunch12
Another great achievement and recognition.

Interesting how he worked as a consultant to Apple, eventually becoming a full
time employee.

A knighthood is a special title but has been handed out to some dubious
characters in the past... Goodwin, Mugabe. Not taking anything away from Ive.

~~~
arethuza
At least Fred's title was taken away:

<http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-16821650>

~~~
JonnieCache
That was an insult to the people of britain and the world, a silly little
dance to try and placate us. The worst kind of political manoeuvring, and
typical of the ex PR men who "lead" us.

The guy should be in the dock.

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arethuza
"The guy should be in the dock"

While I am no fan of ex-Sir Fred I'm struggling to think of what criminal
offence he should be charged with.

~~~
JonnieCache
Some sort of professional negligence. Many other people should have been
charged as well.

It may well be true that there is no specific law he has broken, that's part
of what I'm raging against.

I accept that the post-80s regime of light-touch regulation means that these
people were basically doing what they were supposed to be doing, and that
kinda makes it impossible to punish them.

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zerostar07
Hooray for the Aluminum Knight. The rounded rectangles of the universe salute
you.

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huhtenberg
I think Knighthood benefited from this more than Jonathan.

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bborud
I now expect him to commute to work on a horse. Wearing a suit of armor.

~~~
saddino
"This seamless armor, is stunningly beautiful and perfectly smooth. It feels
like cool liquid to the touch. It is also, incredibly strong. It's a fantastic
fusion of design and function."

~~~
zerostar07
Unibody Aluminum Armor; No edges, no stitching; taken off with the press of
the (only) button. Magical(R). Touch-sensitive shield with reinforced glass
finishing that no amount of multi-touching can break. Sword with rounded-
corners (that one's a bummer but it looks beautiful). Optional aluminum quiver
that accomodates 20 iArrows. Stunning design.

Free stickers.

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peterjs
Well, at least I learned that the Queen has a daughter. Is she a household
name outside of the UK?

~~~
JonnieCache
She's not even a household name in the UK.

In general, the rest of the world is far more interested in the british royal
family than the british.

~~~
estel
Really? Whilst noone would talk ever talk or gossip about her engagements, I'd
like to think that most people are at least aware of her existence;
particularly given her competing in the Olympics and huge visibility as
Britain's IOC representative and huge visibility in the run-up to this year's
games.

~~~
JonnieCache
Go out onto the streets of britain and ask people who princess anne is. I
seriously doubt you'll get a good rate of correct answers, especially if you
ask people under 50.

There are so many minor royals, and their lives form such a complex soap
opera, it's very easy for them all to blend into one if you don't actually
follow it, which very few people do.

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rajdevar
How many times will he gets Knighted? IPod is his sword,Ipad his shield,Mac
his armour :-)

