

Soylent International - ajaymehta
http://blog.soylent.me/post/52848169533/soylent-international

======
jgrahamc
I'd be interested in seeing a comparison of Soylent against Ensure Complete.
They seem to be very similar in intent: [http://ensure.com/products/ensure-
complete-shakes](http://ensure.com/products/ensure-complete-shakes) and based
on the nutrition information for Ensure Complete from that page and the rough
description of Soylent
([http://robrhinehart.com/?p=424](http://robrhinehart.com/?p=424)) I do not
see a major difference.

It would appear that to get the same nutrients as Soylent I would need to
drink 4 bottles of Ensure Complete per day. From the Abbott store they are
$41.99 for 16 bottles: a week's supply works out at $73.48. Very close to
Soylent pricing.

What makes Soylent better?

~~~
scott_karana
Looking at Ensure, I don't get the impression that you're supposed to be able
to live _entirely_ on it.

It looks more like a meal substitute (liquid nutrition bar) than a food
substitute.

~~~
uncoder0
From the Ensure FAQ @ [http://ensure.ca/en/faq/](http://ensure.ca/en/faq/)

" >For how long can I use Ensure?

Ensure products deliver complete and balanced nutrition that is always
beneficial. There is no time limit to using Ensure products. In fact, long-
term use is encouraged if you’re at a nutritional risk (for example, if you’re
an older adult).

>Can Ensure replace a meal?

Yes. Ensure products are complete and balanced, when used in appropriate
amounts they can be used to replace meals. "

I believe it is also used in hospitals with a feeding tube for long term
sustenance however, I'm not finding a great source for that with a quick
google.

~~~
jjoonathan
Well, here's a source for that (they use it in Guantanamo):

[http://www.miamiherald.com/2013/04/29/3370916/more-navy-
medi...](http://www.miamiherald.com/2013/04/29/3370916/more-navy-medics-
arrive-at-guantanamo.html)

~~~
kefs
I wonder how the creator of Ensure (or Soylent) would feel knowing that
they're products were being used in this way..

~~~
DanBC
The creator of Ensure know that the products are used for force-feeding. It
happens with anorexics all the time.

EDIT: But kefs makes a good point; you think you're making food and then you
find out it's being used for something that you strongly disagree with. what
do you do? Take the money? Or don't sell to certain markets?

------
tokenadult
This is perhaps the worst example of people who learn their science and
medicine from reading Reddit that I have yet seen in the Hacker News
community. It illustrates the fallibility of human nature behind every new
business scheme, and shows that a business doesn't have to be a big,
multinational publicly traded corporation to engage in business with little
regard for customer safety or public benefit.

AFTER EDIT: I have read the numerous stories submitted here about this YC-
affiliated company before, and, yes, I am painfully aware of the company
founder's appalling lack of background in nutrition and medicine.

[http://blog.soylent.me/post/51007573199/the-biggest-pivot-
in...](http://blog.soylent.me/post/51007573199/the-biggest-pivot-in-yc-
history)

~~~
jamesaguilar
Yeah, I'm pretty sure that you don't actually know where this guy learned his
science and medicine. Let people experiment on themselves. IMO there are
enough humans that if a few get slightly ill from this, it is worth it for the
chance that it does work (which seems significant given the experimentation he
did on himself, the presence of similar, competing products, etc.).

~~~
jljljl
One of the reasons we have consumer protection laws and the FDA is so that
people _don't_ have to experiment on themselves in order to verify the more
extravagant claims made by products.

People should have a reasonable expectation that when they buy a product, it
will work as expected and as advertised. And they should have recourse if this
turns out not to be the case.

~~~
jamesaguilar
I'd totally have a problem with this if it were being advertised as a highly
tested, rock solid product rather than a nutritional experiment. Since that's
not the case, I'm fine with it.

~~~
DanBC
From the crowd funding page:

> _For anyone who struggles with allergies, heartburn, acid reflux or
> digestion, has trouble controlling weight or cholesterol, or simply doesn 't
> have the means to eat well, soylent is for you._

> _Soylent frees you from the time and money spent shopping, cooking and
> cleaning, puts you in excellent health,_

> _By taking years to spoil_

> _The founders and scores of DIYers have been living on Soylent for months
> and there is much evidence that is considerably healthier than a typical
> diet._

There's no mention on the crowd-funding page that this is an experiment.

I tend to agree with you - people can do what they like with their bodies and
this product would fit a lot better if it was sold as an experiment, with
access to discussion forums and etc.

I notice they now have a disclaimer on that page.

------
DanBC
Soylent have mentioned world hunger. Here's how the World Food Programme
tackle it: ([https://www.wfp.org/nutrition/how-wfp-fights-
malnutrition](https://www.wfp.org/nutrition/how-wfp-fights-malnutrition))

Here's the list of WFP food products ([https://www.wfp.org/nutrition/special-
nutritional-products](https://www.wfp.org/nutrition/special-nutritional-
products)) - especially look at the price. I guess they're making full use of
charitable status and economies of scale.

Here's Plumpy'Nut, a fortified food product for starving children
([http://www.irinnews.org/report/83124/malawi-cheaper-
recipe-f...](http://www.irinnews.org/report/83124/malawi-cheaper-recipe-for-
treating-hungry-children))

EDIT: And even here micronutrient powders are nothing new. See the link to DSM
embedded in WFP page above. Here's their corporate page
([http://www.dsm.com/corporate/investors.html](http://www.dsm.com/corporate/investors.html)).
They're pretty big.

Note that an important part of Soylent, which is offloaded onto the consumer,
is a source of clean water. Much of the world, especially in the target hungry
world market, does not have access to clean water. I think people would
criticise Soylent for that, so it's something for them to be thinking about.

I have no idea how Soylent is in anyway "disruptive" to that market.

Ignoring the "fixing world hunger" bit, liquid foods are not new. Here's a
list:

([http://ensure.com/](http://ensure.com/)) Ensure

([https://www.nutricia.co.uk/fortisip//](https://www.nutricia.co.uk/fortisip//))
Fortisip

([http://www.complan.com/](http://www.complan.com/)) Complan

([http://abbottnutrition.com/brands/abbott-
brands](http://abbottnutrition.com/brands/abbott-brands)) Abbott Nutrition
Brands

([http://www.medifast1.com/index.jsp](http://www.medifast1.com/index.jsp))
Medifast

([http://www.optifast.com/Pages/index.aspx](http://www.optifast.com/Pages/index.aspx))
Optifast

([http://www.slim-fast.com/products/](http://www.slim-fast.com/products/))
Slimfast

Again - I have no idea how Soylent are disruptive.

Selling into other markets is interesting. I hope they've put disclaimers on
some of the more outrageous claims, or they may find resistance. For example
"For anyone who struggles with allergies, heartburn, acid reflux or digestion,
has trouble controlling weight or cholesterol, or simply doesn't have the
means to eat well, soylent is for you." contains medical claims which are
treated very differently in the UK than they are in the US.

I see no evidence that Soylent have done any research at all.

------
tasuki
Not impressed. I manage to eat a healthy (and tasty) diet cheaper than that,
while spending minimal amount of my time in the kitchen.

Vegetables steamed in the microwave take less than 5 minutes to prepare. (More
on my eating habits: [http://blog.tasuki.org/how-i-didnt-stop-eating-
food/](http://blog.tasuki.org/how-i-didnt-stop-eating-food/))

I think eating only Soylent exposes you to a significant risk of missing
something vital that we usually get incidentally from regular food.

~~~
aroch
>Scrambled eggs are pushing it, preparation takes like 15 minutes and there’s
the dirty pan left afterwards. But sometimes I still enjoy them.

How the hell does it take 15mins to prep scrambled eggs? It should take less
than 5 and your cleanup should take all of a minute

1\. Put Small/medium saucepan on stove

2\. Add 1/2 Tbsp butter

3\. Crack 2 eggs into pan (Do no beat beforehand)

4\. Put pan on mid-low flame and stir briskly for 2-3mins or until eggs are at
a runny-curds texture (soft but "together").

5\. Plate

~~~
jack-r-abbit
Some people prefer a few other things in their eggs. So if you need to chop
some onion or peppers or meat that will add to the prep and the clean up.

~~~
aroch
Given OP's other "recipes" it seems unlikely that this is the case. Even if it
were, it'd hardly add another 10minutes

------
jckt
I doubt they really care about HN's opinion given the vast number of
criticisms put forward, but I do really hope that they'd post more product
information, perhaps more of the science, more of the research. Again, as I've
said before, hiring a few more relevant scientists would help with their
credibility, and might it be possible? -- improve their product. That is all.
May there be no more flamewars.

(Granted, I've stopped following this story, so my information might be way
out of date)

~~~
schabernakk
I just skimmed through their discussion board for a while, and it seems they
are planning to employ a couple of industry experts (whatever that means)
fulltime or for consultation with the money they made from their crowdfunding
campaign.

------
schabernakk
I really like the idea but am hesitant at this early stage to buy soylent. If
the general impression is still good after it has been on the market for quite
a while I am pretty sure I will order. I don't think I could switch
completely, but it sounds like the perfect food to have when you just don't
want to invest time to cook something. This would definately be better than to
just have a pizza.

------
mapt
Here's how you create a Soylent without losing the DIY aesthetic:

1) You make it an open source project under an open license, OpenSoylent

2) You leave any health claims to be made by the OpenSoylent community. If
this is unsatisfactory, you put out a bounty for MetaMed to write an
independent report on the OpenSoylent wiki with references.

3) You accept people's patches to OpenSoylent

4) You create a separate, unaffilliated company to provide Soylent(tm), an
implementation of OpenSoylent, with zero health claims, in a commercial
kitchen, and link back to the OpenSoylent wiki for more information

Whether the above is _legal_ or not, I'm not certain, but A) it's a hell of a
lot closer than the present situation, and B) it doesn't offend geeks who
apply critical thought to businesses that blog.

------
ChikkaChiChi
I was interested when it was one guy on a mission for himself. I've become
less so now that its clear he wanted to go worldwide with this as soon as
possible.

I do not wish the project ill will, but I won't be signing on at this time
unless things (re: testing) get a lot more transparent.

~~~
ctdonath
When huge numbers of people take intense interest in your hobby and keep
shouting "shut up and take my money!", to the tune of millions of dollars, it
kinda motivates you to go worldwide with it as soon as possible.

You know, what ycombinator is all about.

~~~
ChikkaChiChi
I never thought about it that way...

------
brownbat
I'd really get behind an Open Soylent project.

More power to Soylent to monetize this, become a business just like Ensure or
Slim Fast (succumbing to all the commercial pressures such products face,
like, "Y'know, let's drop pricey molybdenum and just encourage people to have
normal food once a day.")

I guess I was way more excited about the project when I thought he was
starting a discussion where we can all pool information on self
experimentation to help each other generate a cheap, nutritionally complete
chemical sludge.

------
superkamiguru
I'm not liking how they are going about this at all. They should ensure it is
safe first before trying to sell everywhere. I don't like the perception of
their intents.

~~~
Afforess
And you need money to do that. Or is crowdfunding now not cool?

~~~
superkamiguru
They aren't crowdfunding with the intent of verifying the safety of their
product. They are just crowdfunding to make ample amount of product to start
the cycle of selling. The fact that they already have anticipated shipping
dates shows that verifying the use of this product from a health standpoint is
secondary to their goals.

Why soylent has intrigued me since this first started out. The way they are
going about everything makes it feel so much like snake oil...

------
troels
Why on earth would they name their company/product that? Or am I just missing
the joke here?

~~~
fredsted
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soylent_Green](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soylent_Green)

~~~
jljljl
While clever, this reference doesn't exactly make the name more appetizing.

------
nostromo
I just can't get over the name.

If someone tells you, "hey, the cook spit in your food" \-- it doesn't matter
if the cook actually did, you're going to be grossed out by the food because
you're in an icky state of mind.

So, while I know Soylent is not made out of people, it just makes the product
less appetizing than it would otherwise be.

However, maybe this is just a problem for people who dig old scifi.

~~~
jack-r-abbit
Soylent Green was made from people. Soylent Red and Soylent Yellow were not.
This is Soylent Grey if that makes you feel better. lol

------
axefrog
How the heck are people enthusiastic about this? Are there really that many
people that take no enjoyment from the flavours, colours, textures and smells
of the food they eat? And that's not to mention the fact that the body craves
variety, the need for which it manifests by making you feel sick of eating the
same thing over and over again.

~~~
Afforess
Yep. I hate cooking, and honestly I end up eating like the same exact 5 meals
every week. Apparently there are $500000 worth of us, so there's a market.

~~~
axefrog
That's still 5 meals worth of variety. Also, what about breakfast and lunch?
Are you having the same thing for breakfast, lunch and dinner on each day?

~~~
fragmede
yes? I'm just surprised I'm not the only one.

------
t0
Doesn't this require monitoring of blood levels? How could an average person
order it and know they're healthy?

~~~
fredsted
If you don't feel sick... Although I'd just go to the doctor for a checkup.

~~~
chasing
The problem is that you're average twenty-something can live off of all sorts
of crap for an extended period of time before feeling sick. How many of you
live off of fast food and Mountain Dew?

------
mixmastamyk
I wish the guys at soylent well. But, please get a nutritionist on staff so we
don't have to listen to the same complaints every time.

Also, I think the difficulty in preparing food part is overblown. Haven't any
of these guys heard of Trader Joe's?

------
mdisraeli
I've checked with someone in the industry[1], and yes, Soylent would be
required to be regulated by the FDA and the like.

[1] Conflict of interest, as they work for a potential competitor in the
market. However they come from a medical background, and put patient health
first. Surprising exactly how important nutrition is, actually!

------
tocomment
So they're not shipping to the US or am I reading it wrong?

~~~
Afforess
They were always shipping to the US. They are _adding_ international
locations.

------
DiabloD3
Doesn't sound very Paleo to me.

~~~
pjv
Because it's people!

~~~
ubi
People would be paleo ;)

------
olgeni
Not sure how anybody could actually survive without a balanced diet of hot
dogs and pretzels.

------
yellowapple
Is it people?

