

Amazon.com criticising new iPad on homepage - dutchbrit
http://www.amazon.com/?iPad

======
georgespencer
There's so much about this which is disingenuous. I'm not surprised by this,
but it's worth pointing out some of the tricks Amazon are employing here:

1\. Much More for Much Less. Much More is obviously the kindle fire HD, and
Much Less is the iPad Mini. Heck, if you remove the 'f' of 'for' you get to
the central point here which is to turn the choice into 'Much More or Much
Less'.

2\. Kindle Fire HD branding is used (sexy typeface, orange gradient), iPad
mini has some weird typeface which a cynic might argue has been deliberately
spaced to make it look antiquated and unprofessional.

3\. The Kindle Fire is "stunning" and the iPad Mini is "standard".

4\. Just because the iPad Mini display is high definition and has 30% more
pixels than the iPad Mini, it doesn't mean that the iPad Mini is a "low
resolution" display.

5\. Because the iPad Mini has a bigger screen in the same overall form factor,
they make the same point a different way ("30% more pixels than the Mini" =>
"216 pixels per inch"). If the Kindle had a bigger screen but lower PPI they'd
put the screen size in here.

6\. "Watch HD movies and TV" "No HD movies or TV". The phrasing here is very
clever. To a technically competent individual it parses as "no HD content on
iPad Mini, only standard definition". But the "and TV"/"or TV" phrasing means
that an average consumer might assume that you can't get any TV shows on iPad
Mini.

7\. The screen of the Kindle Fire is odd looking. The iPad Mini behind it is
on its default home screen. I'm guessing that the Kindle Fire has deliberately
been shown all in black (with the bg the same colour as the bezel) because it
makes it unclear where the bezel ends and the screen begins. (I don't know if
this is the default setting of the Kindle Fire HD or not).

8\. The iPad Mini has been photoshopped horribly. For a start I have no idea
which iOS that is, but it's not the one which ships with the iPad Mini or the
one which Apple are using in any of their promotional shots. If you overlay
one of Apple's promotional shots on top and adjust the size and opacity,
you'll see that the iPad Mini has been warped so that the icons seem slightly
smaller and the positioning is off.

8\. Ultra-fast MIMO Wi-Fi vs. A BLANK SPACE. Not even trashing the fact that
there is Wifi in the iPad but it's not as fast. It looks like they just gave
up at this point.

Again, I'm not blaming Amazon for any of this. It's just interesting to see
how much thought has gone into basically attempting to deceive consumers.

~~~
neya
I recently read an article on HN wherein a user posted asking all of us to be
'civil'. This is the reason why HN isn't so civil. You like a product, you try
to support as if you created it and as if the company cares for you, while in
reality the company doesn't care about you and you're just doing free
marketing for them.

Not to say that you can't defend what you like, but most of what you've
written here is very very subjective. One could argue otherwise too, and which
is what is happening right here - You're adding subjectivity to your claims
and provoking a 'fanboy' war. This is unacceptable.

For example, if I were to counter you, I would then say the entire of Apple's
presentations and Marketing is just plain BS. For example they frequently
market saying "The world's best Operating System (referring to Mac OS)" or
"The fastest phone ever" etc. while these are not true. The iPhone for
instance, still runs on a dual core processor. How the fuck can it be the
'fastest' while high-performance quadcore chips were long released even before
this phone came into existence?

Where were you during Apple's presentations? I never saw you arguing "Hey
that's not true, this is disingenuous" while they marketed their products in a
similar fashion.

So may I kindly request you to cut the crap and stop the bias and avoid
provoking people into such techno-wars?

Thanks

~~~
chris_wot
You know, your whole post coud be rewritten as:

 _A lot of what you have written here is quite subjective, and in fact you
could mount a case that Apple's marketing team do the same sort if things as
has been demonstrated by Amazon._

There is no need to flame the original poster. Please reconsider whether the
last three sentences were necessary to contribute to the conversation here at
HN. In my opinion, they were needlessly inflammatory.

~~~
neya
I agree, my apologies. I do realize it was a bit harsh, but his comment was
very biased and I just couldn't stand it. I will follow your approach next
time. Thanks.

------
eigenvector
The iPad Mini's far from impressive DPI is no doubt the result of Apple not
wanting to introduce another resolution into the iOS ecosystem (the Mini's
resolution previously appeared on iPad 1 and 2). I don't think they were
cutting costs with this panel, rather, you are seeing the non-resolution-
independent iOS chickens coming home to roost as software limitations begin to
hold back hardware innovation.

Apple needs to bite the bullet and implement true resolution independence in
iOS and OS X otherwise every new device form factor (or Retina display, in OS
X's case) is going to make things more and more painful.

~~~
dabeeeenster
If I had to guess, I would say that the resolution dependence has been a major
contributing factor to the high UI/UX quality in iOS applications. Yes, there
are other aspects to consider, but this single design decision has a lot of
benefits to developers.

~~~
eigenvector
It's definitely a major contributor to the simple fact that iOS apps, on
average, look a whole lot better than Android apps. That being said, it's a
burden on Apple hardware designers that will only increase with time.

It's a tough decision if there is an elegant solution out there, I can only
hope that Apple is already working on it.

~~~
TazeTSchnitzel
Windows 8 modern-style UI applications are (largely) resolution independent,
and they look pretty good.

------
Spearchucker
When you're a Microsoft, an Apple or a Google you have the money to create
something truly epic - and none of them have.

The Surface has great design, as do all of Apple's products. However the
Surface, while having the potential for great software, comes with something
not quite finished. So while it's eminently usable as it is, it falls short of
greatness.

The iPad Mini, similarly, has the quality one expects from Apple, and yet the
features, such as the display resolution and lack of GPS, give it a feel of
mediocrity. And iOS itself feels a little long in the tooth these days. Not
what you'd expect from Apple.

Google of course have an OS that outsells any other. And yet that's plagued by
patent infringements, operators and manufacturers that aren't incentivised to
update the OS, and the subsequent slew of (real or perceived) security holes.
Android could be truly open, but isn't.

All three companies have the resources to create something earth-shatteringly
innovative, usable and beautiful. And yet they don't. Nokia with the 920 is
the only one that seems to get close. This really surprises me, given the
importance we're placing on the mobile market.

~~~
bornhuetter
I think they are all _epic_ in their own way.

Especially in the case of the Surface - it's the first version of the product!
The original iOS and Android devices all had crappy or non-existant app stores
when they were launched, and were plagued with problems and limitations.

Similarly, for the right use-cases iPad Mini and the Nexus tablets are _epic_
, and many people adore them.

~~~
mtgx
What's so great about Surface besides its design and build material? I don't
mean to knock on those. I think they are great, but that doesn't equal that
the product overall is great. Windows RT is performing very poorly on an
_high-end_ ARM chip (don't want to imagine how it would perform on an older
dual core ARM chip, or god forbid a single core one) compared to the true
mobile operating systems like Android and iOS, and its app store is virtually
non-existent. Office on it is also an exercise in frustration.

The price is also too high for what it offers. Even if the build of materials
is exactly the same as the iPad 4 (I think it's lower), that doesn't mean it
should cost exactly the same as an iPad 4. Because it offers lower _value_
than an iPad (think ecosystem, brand, etc). I also don't think it's acceptable
for a $500+ product to have such a low resolution anymore. And don't tell me
it has an "extra 16 GB". It doesn't. It only has 17 free GB of storage.

~~~
lotso
You should go play with one in person. It is a really neat tablet experience.
Spec for spec it may not appear that competitive, but the user experience is
really slick. Snapping apps side by side (have your music on a small pane, and
another app on the larger one), the app switching model, side swipes to pull
up menus, and the look and feel of Metro are all really refreshing takes on a
touch os.

------
duiker101
I believe that what Gizmodo says is actually true and something that Apple
"forgot" to mention when comparing(highlight the "good" things while omitting
all the other things) the Nexus 7 with their new iPad so I do not blame Amazon
for pointing it out to a wider public. If Apple wants to play this game, they
must be ready to get fought back.

EDIT: also, I still have no idea why isn't that thing Retina. I mean, they
have putted it on everything, iPhone, iPad and Air, why not this? the Retina
might be still the only great feature of iDevices and they have removed it?
Why ? to put it in the next model to double the sales? To make it cheaper? It
is not. This things make me really dislike Apple.

~~~
mbesto
I suspect Mini "2" will have Retina.

~~~
axx
yeah, so all the idiots ran to the next apple store to replace their one year
old iPad mini FINALLY!!11 with a Retina one. I HUGE INNOVATION IN DISPLAY
TECHNOLOGY!

I was an Apple "Fanboy" for years, and all my computers are macs, but from
time to time i get the feeling i need to switch to Unix or something else...

~~~
unimpressive
> I was an Apple "Fanboy" for years, and all my computers are macs, but from
> time to time i get the feeling i need to switch to Unix or something else...

You're already using Unix. Mac OS X is a certified Unix system.

~~~
axx
yeah, i know that already. I meant a more Linux oriented OS. So to save time i
wrote unix instead of mentioning all those popular unix distributions.

~~~
sbuk
Linux isn't a UNIX distribution. It's Linux. Linux can be described as 'UNIX
like'.

------
TillE
Not a bad idea. The low dpi screen of the iPad mini really is a glaring flaw
when you consider the price.

And because of that price, there's going to be a long future for Android
tablets in the sub-$250 range, now that Google and Amazon have proven you can
make and sell a worthy device for that kind of money.

~~~
zwily
They've proven that you can sell at that price, but not that you can make
money at that price. Time will tell.

~~~
SquareWheel
Their profit isn't from the hardware sale, but from the media/apps thereafter.

~~~
admiralpumpkin
Their profit isn't.

[http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/10/25/us-amazon-
results-...](http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/10/25/us-amazon-results-
idUSBRE89O1IE20121025)

------
metatronscube
Oh yeah, another pro Android/Amazon/Google anti-Apple
comment/article/submission. This is not getting tired, not one little bit.
This specific point has been covered recently as well. While this points out
select bits where 'on paper' the Kindle HD is 'better' its not the entire
story is it? Nothing there about build quality or durability for instance, or
the ecosystem or UI/UX or that the user can most probably update the OS
(compared to Android where updates are few and far between and tend to never
come if you are talking about Samsung)

I loved my Nexus 7, right up until it broke (for the 4th time). This time
round the screen split from corner to corner previous times the screen
developed faults and once the screen actually came loose from the body. It
cost 209 quid in the UK (including delivery) and I wished to hell I waited off
to get the iPad mini because apart from the beautiful responsive UI/UX,
applications, app store and iTunes store its probably like most Apple devices
in that its built like a tank.

Sometimes its not just about figures.

~~~
snupples
"Sometimes its not just about figures."

Neither is it about your anecdotes. This isn't an anti-Apple submission so
much as the news of Amazon's first real direct marketing attack on Apple.

------
philwelch
They left out the bullet point about the remote wipe feature. I hear that's a
Kindle specialty.

~~~
pm90
Ha, that's a good point! I'm curious, though: is it possible to do that on a
Kindle Fire? I had thought that was only possible on a regular (Black and
White) Kindle

------
bornhuetter
It's a shame that they have resorted to direct attacks, but given Apple's
comments about "all 7" tablets" I can't really blame them.

I do wish they would all just shut up and concentrate on the value of their
own products though.

------
Jabbles
Discussed previously: <http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4710114>

------
jjguy
My experience shopping on Amazon - a bit like browsing in a vast, chaotic and
disorganized third-world marketplace - is not one I'd like extended to my
computing platform.

Amazon and others can tout narrow features as much as they want, but I still
prefer the better-managed end-to-end experience Apple provides in their
ecosystems.

~~~
hiddenstage
Ever use the app store?

------
ElliotH
The Fire HD seems to have an easier to sell homescreen too. While the iPad has
these small icons with flowers and such (even in their official marketing) the
Kindle's homescreen presents a plethora of stuff to appeal to the mass market:
feature films, popular books, popular magazines, angry birds (I'm not sure
about the US, but Angry Birds seems to have quite a long lasting appeal
especially among young teenagers), Facebook, Skype, TV.

While the iPad can do all of this, the Kindle immediately demonstrates this to
the consumer. I can see it doing really well against the iPad mini with that
sort of imagery being shown to customers.

------
f1nch3r
Having owned both, I am sticking with the iPad. The Fire is good for the price
but I constantly got the feeling that I was working to use the device. But
that's just one man's opinion. I know others who swear by the Fire.

------
FilterJoe
The first 2 lines (display, PPI) and the price line are why I did not buy an
iPad mini, which would have been my first tablet had it been priced at $200 or
maybe even $249. So marketing is dead on, in my view.

Instead I bought an Apple-refurbished iPad 3, for $379, which is $79 more than
the soon-to-be-shipped Kindle HD 8.9".

For $50 more than the Mac Mini I get a bigger and better display. And for $79
more than the Kindle HD 8.9 I get better apps and user experience.

EDIT: clarified what first 2 lines were

------
davidjgraph
So companies use marketing to spin their products? Selecting language and
images that favours their stuff over the competition?

Let me get a pen and paper and write this down.

------
goostavos
I'm becoming "that guy," it seems, but how is this relevant to Hacker News?
This is little more than something which will stir up "fanboys" -- which by
the way seems to have worked judging from the current top, and needlessly
long, comment.

Summed up, this 'news' story boils down to: "Amazon advertises product." Queue
hundreds of comments arguing about why the add is accurate or not; why product
X is the worst, and shameful, and product Y is the best and wholesome.

Has anyone opened a news paper, magazine, turned on the radio or TV, or been
on the internet? One company saying that it's product is better than the
competition is kind of, well, _completely normal_ \-- Advertising 101, if I
may be so bold. Why aren't we arguing to death about car commercials slamming
their competition? Hell, what about Oxy-Clean, huh? Billy Mayes' talked a
bunch of crap about Tide. Where is that discussion? Are people not ready to
defend Tide's name as they are Apple/Amazon's?

People get so emotionally invested in certain products. It's completely silly.

Can we stop this inanity and go back to endlessly arguing about how worthless
PHP is now?

------
venus
Here's their full comparison:

[http://www.amazon.com/gp/feature.html/ref=amb_link_366177422...](http://www.amazon.com/gp/feature.html/ref=amb_link_366177422_1?ie=UTF8&docId=1000846051&pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_s=center-6-2&pf_rd_r=0SS0BG0JCHNJR5AMPVDE&pf_rd_t=201&pf_rd_p=1409302382&pf_rd_i=B0083PWAPW)

Tell you one thing, apple.com's got them beat on URLs ..

~~~
prof_hobart
"Create custom profiles for each child".

This is actually something that I do wish iOS would introduce. My daughter is
not getting her own iPad any time soon, but I'd love to be able to lock down
the apps/features that she's able to use on mine.

------
scotty79
Does anyone know why iPad has single speaker?

~~~
jasonlotito
Just want to add that this is one of my biggest gripes with the iPad. I have
to position things behind my iPad to hear things sometimes. It's by far the
worst part of the iPad.

~~~
robmcm
I expect they will say it's because having two speakers so close together
wouldn't give you a stereo experience (be distinguishable).

<cynical> That is until the next version where it becomes a
feature...</cynical>

~~~
scotty79
I think it should have one speaker at each of 3 corners at least.

Also it would be nice if they invented some cleaver way of directing sound
towards the user because now when I use iPad I have to user my hand as a
makeshift reflector to hear anything.

------
gulbrandr
The URL for the "Shop now" link should have been:

<http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B008GGCAVM/>

instead of:

[http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B008GGCAVM/ref=gw_c1_kf_ipa...](http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B008GGCAVM/ref=gw_c1_kf_ipad/184-2145246-1700130?ie=UTF8&nav_sdd=aps&pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_s=center-1&pf_rd_r=0KM1RNXMFDM1XNKE3J35&pf_rd_t=101&pf_rd_p=1409304522&pf_rd_i=507846)

------
chj
They forgot to mention app numbers..

------
vitobcn
And that is exactly the reason why vendors like to control the distribution /
means of access to their products. e.g. Apple retail stores selling Apple
products, Chrome as a browser to access Google products from desktop or
Android from mobile, etc.

The goal is not having other companies in a position in which they can
significantly affect your business if they choose to do so (e.g. indie
developers and the Apple app store).

------
taylorbuley
So we're using the word "ballsy" now in promotional copy? Because it seems to
me that the word could be construed by some to be sexist.

------
sharpneli
They forgot one feature:

Your device can be locked at random and only by raising a major media storm
you may regain access to your device and stuff you've bought.

I do not know if Apple has done this, can someone enlighten me?

------
lnanek2
Have you seen their commercials? They have one where a whole family has
Kindles for and drive home how much less it costs compared to a loner guy with
an iPad. So not surprisingly they compare direct like this...

------
mrcomment
Sorry, only eink kindles are being sold to Canada, and if I bring one in,
software portion of device de-activates after 30+ days of being outside of the
US, So thus no comparison unfortunately.

------
denzil_correa
Somehow Amazon have upped the ante against Apple ever since Steve Jobs passed
away. The keynote slides in which Bezos revealed the Kindle Paperwhite and the
Kindle Fire HD were so Apple like.

------
digeridoo
If only the kindle fire shipped to countries where most people live.

~~~
goatforce5
The list of countries where Amazon has deals in place to distribute digital
content (apart from eBooks) is pretty low:

[http://www.macstories.net/stories/mapping-the-
entertainment-...](http://www.macstories.net/stories/mapping-the-
entertainment-ecosystems-of-apple-microsoft-google-amazon/)

------
cageface
In the long run I am in complete agreement with Bezos on this. Content is what
matters. Devices come and go but my relationship with an album or a book means
something to me.

------
tsieling
If they talk about the competition, they're scared of the competition, and the
more they talk, the more scared they are. That goes for Apple, Google, Amazon
and all the rest.

------
bitsoda
This bothered me at first, but then I thought to myself: anyone naive enough
to believe the Kindle Fire HD is better than the iPad mini deserves to own a
Kindle Fire HD.

~~~
IheartApplesDix
I was just thinking the same about iOS device customers.

------
jemeshsu
My first impression is that Amazon is displaying the possible margin they
could get with Kindle Fire HD. Maybe someone in AMZ is regretting pricing it
that low.

------
minton
Doesn't matter how much better the specs on this device are. I'm uncomfortable
using it to purchase content that can be revoked without warning or appeal[1]
and nothing short of a popular article on Hacker News can reverse their
decision (and only then as a PR issue).

I realize you're also "renting" content from Apple but the company doesn't
have a history of abusing this and Amazon does.

1 - <http://digitaljournal.com/article/335484>

------
chj
Perhaps Apple will release an iPad mini with Retina Display sooner because of
the peer pressure:)

------
ritratt
ipad/iphone has never been the best device hardware-wise. but they deliver a
good experience despite having inferior hardware with better OS, apps, content
etc.

------
marban
And [Special Offers] aren't available on the iPad either...

------
Mordor
Are Apple competing on hardware or software?

------
MattRogish
Amazon doth protest too much, methinks.

