
Ask HN: What was your relocation package like? - relothrowaway
I was recently offered a relocation package to move my family (myself, wife, and daughter) from Canada to California. I have nothing to compare my package to so I don&#x27;t know if what I&#x27;m being offered is good or not. I tried to find information around the web but I couldn&#x27;t find much.<p>The package that I&#x27;m being offered is $30,000. My position will be as a Software Dev Manager. We&#x27;ve been told we can use that money towards anything with a few exclusions. Oddly enough, legal fees for immigration are not covered by their package. Some quick math we did for moving costs, air fare, temporary rent while we buy a place, various furnishings, etc. still came in above $30,000.<p>What have your experiences been like with relocation packages? How good is $30,000 for moving a family of three?
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pfarnsworth
A couple of tips (these only apply to the SF Bay Area):

1) Unless you can afford a $1.5M US house, don't bother thinking you can just
sweep in and buy a home within a month. The competition is way too fierce
these days. It will probably take you about 1 year unless you're very rich
already. Since you have a daughter, you need to figure out if you want to live
in a cheaper area, far away from your work with a long commute, and send her
to private school, or live closer to work, and pay an exorbitant amount, and
probably still pay for private school.

I suggest paying the exorbitant rent for 6 months or a year, in a place close
to work so that you familiarize yourself with the area, and then start the
search to buy a place.

2) $30k sounds like a very generous relocation package. I think your
expectations as to what it will cover are way too much. Things like multiple
airfares and real estate broker fees sound like you have a sense of
entitlement. Those shouldn't be covered in my opinion, those are the cost of
leaving your home.

~~~
BinaryIdiot
> Since you have a daughter, you need to figure out if you want to live in a
> cheaper area, far away from your work with a long commute, and send her to
> private school, or live closer to work, and pay an exorbitant amount, and
> probably still pay for private school.

In SF itself most public schools are lowly rated. But many areas, especially
MOST of the East Bay, public schools are very highly rated. Unless the OP
moves into SF I don't think private school is necessary at all. Just make sure
to check the ratings before moving into an area.

> I suggest paying the exorbitant rent for 6 months or a year, in a place
> close to work so that you familiarize yourself with the area, and then start
> the search to buy a place.

This is good advice and what we ultimately ended up doing. It's crazy
expensive but now we know where we want to live, how much to expect things,
etc. Our weekend trip out here to pick out a house was just no where near
enough time to buy or figure out the area for renting.

> Things like multiple airfares and real estate broker fees sound like you
> have a sense of entitlement. Those shouldn't be covered in my opinion, those
> are the cost of leaving your home.

Relocation is meant to cover the cost of leaving your home. Many friends I've
talked to had company cover air fair and sometimes real estate broker fees. I
know a company I went with did.

I think it's a bit much saying OP has a sense of entitlement; OP seems to not
know what to expect and simply asked a question and discussed the real
logistics behind the move. When you search online many places offer to cover
that and many do not.

~~~
pfarnsworth
There are pockets of good school districts in the Peninsula, but any one of
them have prices of > $1.5M for 3br2ba and ~1500 sqft. I can't speak for the
East Bay, though, but that increases the commute tremendously. Much like the
CAP theorem, you can only optimize for two of: good schools, good commute,
good house prices.

I said it sounded like he had a sense of entitlement, I actually meant from
the point of view of the company. I mean it sounds like he also wants free
meals included, and Wifi on the plane as well. $30k I think is pretty
generous, all things considered, and at some point, it won't make sense to
move to the Bay Area. Does he really expect a $100k relocation package? I hate
to say it but he's only a dev manager. Personally I don't think unless his
wife is an engineer or another high-wage career, that they shouldn't move.
Their quality of life will suffer. Anything less than $300k combined salary is
tough with kids, rent, commute, etc.

~~~
BinaryIdiot
> I can't speak for the East Bay, though, but that increases the commute
> tremendously. Much like the CAP theorem, you can only optimize for two of:
> good schools, good commute, good house prices

Tremendously seems overstating it. Many in California are used to driving very
long distances to work but you can get from even beyond where the BART line
ends in Easy Bay to SF in an hour even with bad traffic. The trains in the bay
area are a great way to minimize commuting to and from the city.

Good house prices is too subjective. In some general sense sure but I don't
think CAP is a good analogy here.

> I said it sounded like he had a sense of entitlement, I actually meant from
> the point of view of the company. I mean it sounds like he also wants free
> meals included, and Wifi on the plane as well.

I didn't get anything like that AT ALL from the OP's post. This sounds more
like a strawman than anything else.

> I hate to say it but he's only a dev manager. Personally I don't think
> unless his wife is an engineer or another high-wage career, that they
> shouldn't move. Their quality of life will suffer. Anything less than $300k
> combined salary is tough with kids, rent, commute, etc.

This...is wildly off topic and pretty terrible advice. You don't really know
anything about OP other than they wanted to know what other people's
relocation packages were so they can compare and get an idea as to how
generous, or not, this company's offering is.

Yes the bay area is expensive but less than $300k a year isn't "tough" unless
you're trying to live in a million dollar home and you're burning through
money. You seem to have very unrealistic expectations.

Personally, I make considerably less than $300k a year with two kids. We rent
a large house and my kids go to highly rated public schools. It's expensive,
yes, but I don't think I would call it "tough". In fact I see my family far,
far more than I did when I worked on the east coast.

My point being: everyone's situation is different and I think your perspective
is a bit too narrow to be giving general, unsolicited advice.

~~~
pfarnsworth
I guess we will agree to disagree. I stand 100% by my opinion/advice. I have
many current and ex-coworkers and friends who suffer through a long commute, a
shitty neighborhood, etc, even though they have great jobs. They are
critically unhappy because they should be able to afford a home and live in a
good neighborhood but they can't.

If you want a reasonable commute (less than 1hr) (ie. South Bay, Peninsula,
SF, etc) close to great companies, live in a safe area, with good schools,
then earning anything less than $300k combined makes it tough. You can't even
afford the mortgage payment on an average house in those areas at $150k/yr,
unless you have a massive down payment, and God help you if one of you or your
spouse loses their job.

~~~
BinaryIdiot
> If you want a reasonable commute (less than 1hr) (ie. South Bay, Peninsula,
> SF, etc) close to great companies, live in a safe area, with good schools,
> then earning anything less than $300k combined makes it tough. You can't
> even afford the mortgage payment on an average house in those areas at
> $150k/yr, unless you have a massive down payment, and God help you if one of
> you or your spouse loses their job.

Reasonable commute is relative. For example if you live as far east as the end
of Pleasanton / Dublin in East Bay you can have a roughly 45 minute commute to
the financial and nearby districts in SF.

Point being you can hit your most or all of your marks and not need $300k a
year. In fact that's a difficult amount for the average or even above average
person to make and it's not always possible to have spouses working.

Let people judge what they can and cannot afford to do. General statements
like saying making under $300k is going to be tough isn't constructive and
while it may be true in some instances it's certainly not true for all.

~~~
pfarnsworth
Of course it's constructive. People making $75k/yr with a family and a home in
North Carolina and then getting an offer for $150k/yr in the Bay Area might
think "I'm going to be rich!" when in fact they're probably going to be worse
off. People need to understand this, it's a very, very expensive area to live
in. I ask EVERYONE and they agree that $300k/yr is about the threshold where
life stops getting "tough". You may disagree, but as I said, we will agree to
disagree.

~~~
BinaryIdiot
> People making $75k/yr with a family and a home in North Carolina and then
> getting an offer for $150k/yr in the Bay Area might think "I'm going to be
> rich!" when in fact they're probably going to be worse off. People need to
> understand this, it's a very, very expensive area to live in.

Before people pick up and move their entire lives they typically research the
area. Suggesting otherwise is just a way of calling them stupid. If someone
tells me they're doing X and want feedback on Y, I'm not going to
automatically assume they're being stupid about X.

Sounds rude to me.

> I ask EVERYONE and they agree that $300k/yr is about the threshold where
> life stops getting "tough".

Sounds like you're in your own bubble. Its always good to seek out alternative
views on something instead of just doubling down in your narrow set of
anecdotes. If you're only asking your rich friends you're not going to have a
good idea on the reality.

~~~
pfarnsworth
Nah, it's fine.

------
rcarrigan87
$30k is very solid.[0] The majority of relo packages are in the $10k range for
non-exec employees. Relocation packages, in general, have been on the decline
since 2008.

I would suggest doing a little more research on the tax implications of
moving. The only major expense you can write off is what you pay the moving
company. Everything else is counted as regular income and taxed. This can
especially bite you with the USA's confusing AMT tax system.

Also, try and get the move done prior to May. Prices will go up 20-30% and
availability will be a lot tighter for moving companies

[0] co-founder of [https://www.movebuddha.com/](https://www.movebuddha.com/)

------
benhoyt
Three years ago my company paid me US$28,000 to move my family (me, wife,
three young kids) from New Zealand to New York City. This covered a moving
company (approx US$10,000), flights, and one month's rent while we found a
place to live. So it was basically enough, but there were a few costs we just
covered ourselves (always the way). So from my perspective what you're being
offered sounds reasonable, especially seeing you have fewer kids and it's
"only" from Canada.

------
mbrameld
I've gotten 2 relocation packages in the last 5 years that were very
different. Both were for senior developer positions, neither in any of the
tech hubs.

The first time I was given $2,500 to move from FL to AK to work for a small
consulting firm. Really just a token gesture, but it paid for the ferry and
hotels for the drive up. I had to arrange everything myself, pay out of
pocket, and submit receipts for reimbursement.

Second time I moved from AK to TX to work for a large financial institution
and the total was $22,000 and some change all together. They flew me down to
house hunt for a week all expenses paid, then flew me down again when I
actually moved. They had my car shipped, I had to drop it off at the port in
AK but it was delivered to my house in TX. They had movers come to my place
and pack everything, then deliver and unpack everything on the other end. All
I had to do was pick the dates for everything to happen. It was like a
military move but better, because I wasn't in the military anymore.

------
jcadam
Congrats, relocation packages are rare these days. The last time I needed to
move for a job (from VA to FL) I had to foot the bill myself (of course, this
was the company that at one point stopped buying office supplies and made us
bring in our own _pens_ ).

That said, $30,000 is pretty decent, though I've only moved within the US, so
I'm not sure of the costs associated with moving from Canada.

The one relo package I've received during the course of my career reimbursed
the cost of moving my household goods (we rented a 'POD' and a couple of
helpers at either end of the move), gas/mileage for the long drive, per diem
for meals, and up to X nights in a Hotel. It didn't cover things like rental
deposits, costs associated with setting up utilties/services, DMV fees in the
new state, etc. All in all, it probably covered about $15-$20k worth of moving
expenses for a coast-to-coast move.

------
chondl
About 10 years ago my wife and I relocated from Minnesota to California moving
a very full 3BR house. We did not need temporary rent but we did have ~3
months of storage and paid for the movers to pack our stuff. I believe it cost
my company ~50k USD, including travel and other misc expenses. That number
doesn't include assistance the company provided for expenses selling my old
house which would be another 20k or so.

Also, be sure to check whether the money you receive is taxable income because
that potentially will take another large bite.

------
adnam
Adding this to my "remember when we had it so good" scrapbook.

------
x0x0
So, there's multiple traps here.

1 - I _think_ that you want to be reimbursed, not given a bonus. The
difference is you'll pay tax on the bonus, but if you're just reimbursed, no
tax. If you must get it as a bonus, take your estimated expenses and divide by
.6 to get the required bonus. Also don't forget that the US has two tax
systems and this could bump you up close to AMT.

2 - make sure that, in case the job blows up, at _bare minimum_ your required
repayment falls by 1/12 each month. Better yet, no required repayment. You
don't want to be in a situation that just happened to a friend of mine where 6
months in he and his manager mutually agreed it wasn't working and they want
$25k back.

edit: I'd suggest 6 months with it falling 1/6 each month. If your new
employer pushes back, I'd point out you're taking the far bigger risk here by
moving countries.

------
SHNM
A little on the low side given all you have to do with it. Made a 'similar'
move about 2 years ago from Canada, in the end, with about the same amount
spent, we found that it ended up being a loss of about $10k. Can provide more
details if you like, send me an email.

One key recommendation that no one seems to have noted here, don't sell your
house or belongings yet or buy new stuff. The comment about the role not
working out and then having to figure out what's next from x0x0 is coming from
someone who knows what they are talking about. Give yourself at least 6 months
to understand if the job will work out before buying at your new location.
This is especially true given that you will be on a visa. With the job gone,
you will have 3 months max to unwind and leave the US.

~~~
otoburb
I'm not an accountant, but since the OP is moving at the beginning of this
year then they'd have at least 9 more months before having to sever their
residential ties to Canada (i.e. selling their house). If the CRA believes
that they're still a resident for tax purposes (even after having moved to the
US), they may be on the hook for both Canadian and US taxes for the 2017 tax
year. The tax treaty between Canada and the US for tax offsets may not apply
because both countries may claim that the OP is resident in their respective
jurisdictions.

Of course, I'm sure they're already consulting an accountant, but at least
they have a window of opportunity to see how the new job works out before
pulling the trigger on selling Canadian assets.

~~~
mahyarm
When I did it many years ago, I was resident until my move out date and then I
was a resident in the USA. You basically file 2 'partial' tax returns. I was a
student with no assets although, so you will need to look into how Canada's
departure tax effects you: [http://www.cra-arc.gc.ca/tx/nnrsdnts/ndvdls/lvng-
eng.html](http://www.cra-arc.gc.ca/tx/nnrsdnts/ndvdls/lvng-eng.html)

Definitely talk to an accountant.

------
tucaz
I got about 4K + VISA fees to move from Brazil to the US. It seemed fair and
enough. We sold everything back there and started fresh here with way less
things and a lower lifestyle, but it was still worth it.

Everytime I hear about similar subjects and people talking about business
expenses I'm always spooked by how much business money people spend. When it
comes to other people's money (company in this case) it seems that one doesn't
care like it was theirs.

~~~
ghaff
In a case like this I'll certainly optimize for reimbursable expenses. It
doesn't really make sense for me to replace stuff on my own dime if I can move
it on someone else's.

------
BinaryIdiot
So I've been offered two different relocation packages over the past few
years. I eventually took one of them up and moved to the Bay Area (you'll be
able to guess which package I picked).

\- Company A: $10k for relocation _or_ cover the cost of a moving company to
pack and move all of our stuff including our vehicles.

\- Company B: $22k relocation "lump sum" (this varied depending on your
circumstances; I was a home owner in another state so I got the max), company
paid moving company to pack everything up and move it across the country
including two vehicles, reimbursed airfare for flying out to house hunt and
again for the final relocation airfare, paid for closing costs to sell our
existing home, paid for company to help us buy or rent a home in the bay area.
I also got a starting bonus but that wasn't technically part of relocation.

I know a lot of people who have relocated in the past. Everyone seemed to
agree Company B offered probably one of the best and most thought the average
for the area was a range with Company A at the low end and somewhere in the
middle between Company A and Company B being at the high range.

Hope that's helpful!

------
hnrodey
Mine was a little less than that (I stayed within the US but moved several
states away). However my "relocation package" ended up as a signing bonus so
it was fully distributed to me and taxed but the upside is that I could use
the money however I saw fit. I see pro's and con's to either approach.

Send me a message if you have any questions about my experience or any
advice/follow up.

------
ZeroFries
It costs more than $30,000 to move? Sell everything, buy new, and I still fail
to see how a move could cost over $30,000. Why would rent be included, by the
way? That's cost of living, not relocation.

~~~
relothrowaway
It's not that simple. Rent is included because we would be looking to buy a
home in the US. We currently own a home here. Rent is so we have time to find
the right place. We could also use that money to do house hunting visits but
those are a lot more expensive.

Here's a few other costs we've found and we find more every day:

\- Legal and processing fees for filing immigration paper work, doctor's
visits, travel to interviews

\- One way airfare or multiple airfares if I move first and family comes later
so I can see them

\- Getting all our belongings packed up and moved by a reputable mover

\- Assistance with job placement for my wife since she also works

\- Realtor fees for buying/selling ourt homes

\- Some assistance with furnishing the new home

It can go on and on.

~~~
natch
Some of the things you mention seem somewhat exaggerated. Your expectations
and apparent level of entitlement are a bit surprising.

I wouldn't have said this if the offer level was, say $10k or $20k. But $30k
seems pretty good even if you have decided that you require the ability to buy
a house (not everybody has that privilege; you should feel lucky, and not take
it for granted).

It is an offer. It gives you and your family certain benefits. You may also
have certain costs. Those are your business. Just deal with them, or not.

You can take it or leave it. If coming to California is worth it for you and
your family, take the offer. If not, don't. Not every opportunity in life is
cost-free for you. For some of them, you have to step up and pay some of your
own contribution.

That being said, your concerns are all valid. These are all things you need to
consider, and it's good you're thinking it through. Maybe you can present them
to your prospective employer as inputs to your decision. Just don't give them
the feeling that you have a very entitled attitude, although you seem to,
because that could backfire either with a withdrawn offer, or feelings of
rancor later.

~~~
sheepmullet
> Your expectations and apparent level of entitlement are a bit surprising.

Why do you say that?

It sounds like he doesn't want to be out of pocket for a relocation.

He has an upper middle class job and lifestyle and is moving for an upper
middle class role. So he wants an upper middle class relocation package.

------
natch
Sounds pretty fair. Maybe your estimates are based on taking the deluxe option
on everything? Personally if I was being moved to California I would consider
putting up with a lower priced but still decent hotel room for a few weeks,
cheap coach air travel (you may have already priced it as coach, not saying
you chose first class, but I'm saying you can shop around within coach with
different dates and times and get cheap coach prices which are way less than
the highest price coach prices), dorm-style cheap furniture to start out with,
and maybe sell a car or two instead of moving them. My relo package was only
$10k but that was many years ago when rent was cheaper.

------
manyxcxi
I was offered a package that basically just said we'll cover your expenses to
move. There were some exclusions, I think mostly based on tax rules, but it
wasn't a lot. I could imagine if I had submitted a $30K bill it would've been
an issue though. The difference is that it's not like I could economize to
pocket extra cash.

$30K seems reasonable, if not even generous. I guess it's all relative to your
base comp and if you're getting any other bonus. For instance, I also received
a sign on bonus that was divorced from anything about the moving costs.

To move from Portland to Seattle (I know, not THAT crazy of a move) it cost us
about $10k including having the moving company pack up the entire house,
storage fees, etc.

If the wife hadn't have been pregnant and I would've taken more time off (I
literally ended one job on Friday and started the other on Monday) we could've
probably halved that cost, if not more.

If it was me and I had a $30K lump sum I'd do what I could to minimize the
charges the moving company was hitting me with by packing up myself (I hated
how they packed us up and I had more things broken in that move than I have
ever had in any move and I've moved across the Atlantic and back).

You also will want to look at selling anything that's kind of big or heavy
that isn't sentimental and worth less than a few hundred dollars.

For example, get rid of any IKEA furniture you have and buy it again when you
get to where you're going. It will literally cost you more to move than it is
worth.

On that note, especially if you have lots of stuff and/or are in a fairly big
house now- try to sell or give away as much as you can. Use this as an
opportunity to clean out the accumulated life cruft and start fresh. If it was
up to me when we moved we would've been able to fit it in the back of my
pickup.

Save money by driving instead of having your cars shipped and flying- and take
a vacation while you're at it. Shipping your cars costs a lot, it's a hassle,
and they'll probably get banged up. Plan a road trip and have fun with it.

~~~
nbclark
One thing to keep in mind is that relocation expenses trend to be tax
deductible. What's not used will be taxed as a bonus

------
partycoder
I got offered $3000 in reimbursable expenses, plus a free rent for a month, a
couple of years ago.

The free rent allowed me to provide my future landlord with a previous address
and a landlord reference.

When I was looking for a place, many places asked me to provide 1 to 3 months
of rent as a deposit, because of a lack of a credit score. However I found a
nice location that didn't have that requirement.

Taxes and rent are high in California. In that sense, working in another
state... in a city like Seattle, allows you to keep much more of your money.

Then, I would interpret it as "up to $30,000". So keep the receipts/invoices.

------
iends
How do people who own houses for less than 5-10 years relocate? If I sold my
house right now, the real estate agents would eat most of the 30k up (and
certainly would after taxes).

------
netule
Very good. Mine was $5,000 back in 2012 to move from Florida to California.

------
bsvalley
What type of visa are you getting? I thought visa applications were not
opening until April.

~~~
relothrowaway
I'm a US citizen. We would be applying for green cards for my wife and
daughter.

~~~
amance
uuh... how is your daughter not a US citizen?

~~~
mdasen
I don't know about their situation, but US Citizenship doesn't pass down from
parent to child in an unlimited way (though it is often thought to).

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_nationality_law#...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_nationality_law#Birth_abroad_to_one_United_States_citizen)

If you're born abroad to a single citizen parent, that citizen parent must
have lived in the US for at least 5 years total and at least 2 years after the
citizen parent's 14th birthday. If the citizen parent doesn't satisfy that
when you're born, you don't qualify for birthright citizenship.

So, the US requires a substantial period of residence prior to the child's
birth in order to pass down citizenship to the child.

------
nunez
$5000 cash, taxable as income. NYC to DFW

------
kasey_junk
It's low.

~~~
kasey_junk
To add detail I've had 3 different relo offers. Not to California but to NYC.
The only one that was less than this included 3 months of paid corporate
housing.

