
How I negotiated a software-engineering job offer in Silicon Valley - sanj
https://blog.usejournal.com/how-i-negotiated-a-software-engineer-offer-in-silicon-valley-f11590f5c656
======
jplahn
I recently finished reading the book Never Split the Difference and I would
highly recommend it. It's a slightly different take on the traditional
negotiation tropes we've all heard.

I've managed to employ many of the techniques in my day to day as a PM with
success, but his discussions on salary negotiation resonated with me. I'm sure
you can find some notes on the book to derive 50% of the value, but the
author's stories and explanations drove it home for me.

~~~
khazhou
TLDR please?

~~~
jplahn
I don't know if this really qualifies as TL;DR, but they seem to have captured
the high-level points: [https://www.freshworks.com/freshsales-crm/sdr-sales-
developm...](https://www.freshworks.com/freshsales-crm/sdr-sales-development-
reps/summary-of-never-split-the-difference-blog/)

~~~
shakestheclown
Interesting that their suggestion "People often get tired of hearing their own
name. Switch tracks and use your name instead." is at odds a bit with Dale
Carnegie's "Remember that a person's name is to that person the sweetest and
most important sound in any language."

~~~
tejon
My name is for getting my attention. Once you have my attention, I enjoy
hearing it exactly as much as I enjoy an ongoing fire alarm.

~~~
jjeaff
Nothing sets off my sleezy salesman proximity sensor faster than someone using
my name more than once in a few sentences.

------
Taylor_OD
Every time something like this is posted a, likely very good, engineer who
does not live in the Valley post about how overpaid these engineers are.

Compensation is heavily dependent on market rates. It's far more difficult to
hire a strong senior engineer in the valley than it is in most other cities in
the US. Even companies in fairly remote areas can hire a remote developer or
pay a SF engineer to relocate for less than what most Valley engineers make.

It's not about what you can actually do... It's about what you can do compared
to the other available people around you.

~~~
souprock
Here, I'll break the trend: they are underpaid

It's all relative to how much things cost. Suppose one of these engineers
wants to buy a home. Here, somebody of similar skill could afford any one of:

a. new McMansion

b. waterfront property with a boat dock and canal access to the ocean

c. canal access for an airboat

d. a condo literally on the beach

e. 11 acres, sheep, goats, can fire an AR-15 in the backyard

For each of the above, I've had a coworker get it. For half those prices, a
house within a couple thousand feet of work can be had. An actual house right
on the beach seems possible too, perhaps requiring a 30-minute commute in low
traffic.

That is single-income by the way.

So, are these things available? If these would be unaffordable, you're
underpaid, no matter how big your dollar figure may be.

~~~
esoterica
Why are you using a McMansion and a boat dock as part of the canonical
benchmark lifestyle? What if you want to live in a tiny apartment and direct
your money towards travel, cars, hobby gear, or index fund shares so you can
retire at 35 instead? All these things cost the same whether you live in the
Bay Area or rural Kansas, so you’re better off maximizing absolute income even
it means living somewhere with expensive real estate.

~~~
ChristianGeek
Because a tiny apartment in the Bay Area is going to cost you as much as a
McMansion in rural Kansas.

~~~
sershe
What if you don't care about a McMansion? It's like a restaurant where they
give you a 3-pound steak, but it tastes kinda crappy and you cannot box it.

We have a 1300sqft house in HCOL and it still has a bunch of unused space; we
used to have the same problem even in a 1100ft apartment. My friends have a
cheaper big house a 40-minute drive away; the reason they have a big house is
because they want to be near certain outdoor activities, and there are no
small houses in that area. Half the house is literally unfurnished, nobody
ever goes there.

Come think of it, my two main problems with my house is that (1) it's too long
of a walk to a bus (like, 7 minutes) and bars/etc. (like, whole 5-15 minutes);
(2) (didn't affect us directly yet) heroin addicts stealing stuff. Both of
those would be worse in a typical LCOL where I could afford a McMansion I
wouldn't bother fully furnishing.

I'm not in BA and I think BA is vastly inferior to where I'm at, but for me an
apartment in BA >> a 4000sqft house in rural Kansas. It's like, not even on
the same level. Judging by the prices, many people agree :P

~~~
souprock
Those problems listed in your 3rd paragraph would not be issues of concern at
all.

Nobody wants to take the bus. It doesn't run 24x7. It doesn't go direct, door
to door. At the beginning and end of the trip, nobody wants to walk 7 minutes
in unpredictable weather while lugging a bunch of stuff. Nobody wants to
endure a slow trip, stopping every couple blocks, with a couple bus changes
that take a half hour each. Before you get your groceries home, either your
ice cream melts or your hot chicken gets cold. You just wouldn't do that.
You'd hop in your car, go a couple miles without any traffic, and use the free
parking.

Heroin addicts aren't normally a problem in reasonable non-city areas. Yes,
you could choose to live in the worst neighborhood, maybe renting for
$200/month, but that isn't normal for a "software-engineering" person. More
likely you'd be in a neighborhood where calling the cops about a suspicious
person would get the cops there in a couple minutes, and/or you'd be in a
place where burglars get shot at with full approval of the state legislature.

~~~
sershe
I actually want to take a bus, or walk. Taking the bus for groceries is
insane, only someone living in suburbs could come up with that ;) You should
be walking for groceries. Buses save a lot of time since you don't have to
drive so you can read or even work; even in my location where buses are far
away and there's no express bus nearby (so I make a transfer), for my commute
in realistic, not over-the-top traffic the bus is only about 1.5-2.25x slower
counting parking time in the free garage, so the net wasted time is actually
higher by car; buses are way cheaper (same commute, $2.75 by bus, $5-6 by car
before even counting tolls and with free parking); less bad for your health,
esp combined with walking; much less stressful; you don't have to bother with
parking that is often scarce in the areas you'd actually want to go; you can
drink 3 beers and not worry about who will drive; if the weather is terrible
like now in Seattle, buses mostly keep running even though most people cannot
drive and Ubers are non-existent.

Mind you, that's all in the city where buses actually kinda suck. Where I'm
from, subway runs 19 hours a day, and peak hour train interval are 50 seconds,
up to 7 minutes at night. Many people still drive (it actually takes much
longer at rush hour), well as I say, why stop the self-inflicted suffering,
there are all kinds of kinky people :)

The way I see it, driving yourself is a menial job that makes about as much
sense to do as pumping your own overflowed sewer with your own advanced
plumbing gear. If you cannot pay someone else to do it (no plumbers or
buses/ubers accessible), either you live really far in the mountains, or the
place you live in is run by idiots.

Crime rates, except for the most benign property crime like car prowls and
package theft, seem to be way higher in the LCOLs I looked at, ~4 years ago
when we were deciding where to move to. I was actually surprised how much
higher, although I don't remember the details. Anecdotally, someone I know
lives in a LCOL in Texas and they got burglarized no problem in a gated burb
that is way far out, you cannot get there in any way other than by car.

~~~
souprock
That is truly a strange and different life.

You must be very comfortable in crowds, without much concern for the fact that
some other person could do something bad to you. Suburbia exists largely
because other people disagree. These other people can not relax on a city bus.

Fixing your own sewer is something people do for privacy (strangers again, IN
THE HOME), scheduling, and to take pride in doing something with real physical
results. It's like cooking your own food, changing the oil in your car,
walking your dog, washing your dog, teaching your kids to read, driving, and
mowing your lawn. All these things can be paid for, but that takes variety out
of life and reduces privacy.

Getting burglarized in Texas is pretty special. Somebody knew he wasn't home,
or at least that he wasn't armed.

I shouldn't be walking for groceries. The HCOL/LCOL distinction sorts by
family size, being both cause and effect. (you choose a place according to
family size, and then the choice you made will influence your family size) I
have 11 kids, so try to imagine hauling the groceries for 13 people.

Going by your price, it's $35.75 for us to take the bus.

~~~
sershe
As far as these preferences go, I think of myself as an outlier in the US, but
with 11 kids and pride in fixing your own sewer and/or not wanting a plumber
in your house for privacy reasons, you appear to be much more of an outlier in
the opposite direction. Sure, in that case, you have to live in suburbs (or a
rural setting). I know some people who want to live walking distance to long
mountain running trails, that places even more severe restrictions on them.

For an average person though, preference for suburbs is usually just based on
outdated preconceived notions and habit (scared on a city bus? buses in HCOL
areas, esp. those going to major white collar employment areas e.g. Seattle to
Redmond, have like 30% of the people on their laptops half the time;
uncomfortable in crowds, in the US? most US cities have no crowds to speak of
even in downtown core, and in any case most people are quite fine in a crowd
at a football game or a concert).

Also, even with an extreme bias towards suburbs in the US ("the children!"),
many people do prefer cities if you judge by the price per sqft.

------
angarg12
What bothers me about this is not the figures, but the feeling that the only
thing that matters to increase your salary is competing offers.

The more articles I read the more convinced I am that this is by far the most
important factor in an offer, including interview performance. Companies seem
to rely in a 'wisdom of the crowds' of sorts.

~~~
sershe
I've had two options last time I negotiated, and I couldn't really tell which
project would be better. It's really hard to tell from the outside when the
people giving you answers about the good and bad aspects of the job are the
people trying to hire you. So in the end I just chose using the money. The
not-so-surprising part is that the project is not as good as it was described.
The surprising-but-unsurprising part is that the negative aspects are not at
all what I would have predicted. Sure, I could have gone with the other
company for less money; the odds are, I would have still had no idea
beforehand w.r.t. what I'm getting into. Unless one of the teams/offers is
obviously better, it's a crapshoot and the money is literally your only
reliable data point. If you have to bail in a year (which I never had to do so
far), at least you get more out of it.

------
galaxyLogic
You should strive for a deal that allows you to go independent after a few
years. They want to keep you dependent on them of course. I wonder if the
practice of law-firms should work for IT, at some point you get an offer for
partnership. Otherwise even if you work for Google and all your income is
spent on living, including family, then what safety is there for future. You
should be working for somebody else in order that at some point you no longer
have to work for somebody else.

------
titanomachy
Those salaries seem high compared with the equity, what is your level? Never
heard of FB/GOOG L3 making 180k base, although the equity sounds about right
(for someone with aggressive and well-planned negotiation).

Nice work. I went through the experience recently, although with two offers
instead of six... and that was stressful enough! Well worth it in the end,
obviously.

------
B-Con
What are people's experiences around having requiters you submit a competing
offer for them to negotiate against it?

I've had recruiters tell me they need to see a copy of an offer letter in
order to match against it. I assume this is to minimize people lying about
competing offers to squeeze a few extra percentage points out of their offer
and to give the recruiter maximum negotiation leverage.

What response do you get if you just tell them "no"?

~~~
titanomachy
They absolutely refused to move without a copy of the competing offer. I kept
pushing but finally gave up and sent them a screenshot of the offer. They
called me within 30 mins offering a 40% increase over their "best and final
offer".

This was at a top 5 tech company.

------
kmonsen
One thing to keep in mind is that (in theory, but also from what I have seen
in practice) better starting salary at Google will fairly quickly be negated
by smaller raises in the future.

Same level / performance will be equal after a few years, so the really
important thing to work on is (perceived) performance.

~~~
nomel
> Same level / performance will be equal after a few year

For the person who didn't start higher, the difference between those curves is
lost income.

~~~
kmonsen
It is true, but starting higher and not progressing as quickly can also lead
to feeling of broken promises.

------
sigfubar
Wow. I have 15 years of experience and am making under 220k in NYC. There’s no
way I’d have offered that much money for someone with 2 years of experience.
It just isn’t worth the price.

~~~
codemac
You are underpaid.

~~~
cschep
220k base + 220k in options a year isn't underpaid. All depends on the
options.

~~~
sigfubar
Options, in the vast majority of cases, are worthless. We can trade anecdata
all day, but each individual's personal stance towards options is shaped by
their own experience and the experiences of those who they've worked with.
I've never met anyone who made any money off options.

With that disclaimer/explainer out of the way, I can say with confidence that
I don't factor options into my comp. When an employer gives me options, I say
thank you. When they don't, I don't feel upset.

~~~
cschep
I'm sorry I used the wrong word. I meant RSU's. Actual stock. Not worthless at
all.

------
crimsonalucard
200k+ for 2 years experience in the valley? That is crazy. This guy is
overpaid. How realistic is this? I work in the valley I have roughly a decade
of experience and I am definitely under 200k.

Am I getting shafted?

~~~
crimsonalucard
Anybody willing to pay me 200k+? I'm a python expert. I know golang. I can do
fullstack work but my preference is for the backend. I'm basically a polyglot,
willing to do anything from scala, haskell, python, lisp, you name it.

I have good fundamentals, and extensive experience diving into and navigating
large/old codebases.

~~~
throwaway68479
This might be an unpopular opinion here, but I would change how you
pitch/market yourself.

First, if a candidate talks about programming languages a lot (especially if
they're talking about Lisp and Haskell), that can be a sign that they're going
to be unhappy working within the confines my team's Java/C++/whatever
codebase, and that they're going to complain a lot and try to rewrite things
in other languages. That's not a dealbreaker, but it's not a great first
impression.

Second, bragging about how many languages you know also codes as "junior
engineer" or "recent graduate", even though the rest of your post makes it
sound like that's probably not the case. Most teams are looking for someone
who has demonstrated that they are really productive in at least one language,
so focus your sales pitch on that. Again, this is just a first impression
issue.

Finally, I probably wouldn't claim myself as "expert" on anything, unless I
was a top 10 committer to the project or I was specifically trying to bill
myself as a consultant on that specific technology. Seeing "expert" sets off
people's BS alarm bells, and they'll evaluate everything else you say with a
more skeptical eye. It can also get you in trouble in interviews. Point #7 on
this blog post explains it better than I could: [https://steve-
yegge.blogspot.com/2007/09/ten-tips-for-slight...](https://steve-
yegge.blogspot.com/2007/09/ten-tips-for-slightly-less-awful-resume.html)

Anyway, please read this as constructive advice rather than someone on the
internet trying to tear you down. I'll echo what the other comments have said
- practice coding interviews, apply to the big tech companies that have a
presence in your area, and don't get discouraged if you don't get an offer
right away. The big companies are full of people who had to interview 2-3
times to get an offer.

~~~
xyzzyz
All of this advice is spot on.

I recommend not even mentioning a language in your resume, just explain what
you worked on. If they ask if you can program in X, the answer is "of course I
can program in X", because of course you can, languages are easy to learn. If
they ask if you worked with technology Y, you say "yes" or if that's not true,
you say that "I worked with similar technology Z, and I looked at Y and it
seemed easy enough to learn in a few days".

You want to position yourself as a person that will do anything that needs to
be done, and if it requires learning something new, you'll learn that quickly,
as you've already done many times before. Just don't lie, as it can easily
poison the well.

Some companies are looking for e.g. Rails developer, and they might reject you
if you're not Rails developer, or they don't realize that you are. This is
fine, these companies almost never pay $250k+ anyway. Companies that do are
looking for people who can do anything they ask them to, not just some simple
well-specified tasks.

------
bateman_
So, how much is the interview grind worth to you? A few months work for a shot
at 7 figure potential salary over 4 years? Sounds like a deal to me.

------
aportnoy
>Late last year I interviewed at six top companies in Silicon Valley in six
days, and stumbled into six job offers.

Misleading. He applied at 20 companies, interviewed at 6, got 6 offers.

~~~
paulcole
That's not misleading at all. He doesn't say he applied at 6 companies, it's
pretty clear he went 6 for 6 in his interviews.

------
matchagaucho
To put this in bay area perspective, that $300K per year gets broken down as:

    
    
      42% Tax bracket. Net $180K per year
      $6K per month in rent/mortgage. Net $108K
      $3K per month in living expenses. $72K
      $1K student loans (maybe). Net $60K
      $1K in insurance (health / renters / home). Net $48K
      $1K disposable income. Net $36K
      $8K vacation. Net $28K ( or about $2.3K per month for savings)
    

Not bad. But you can see how bay area cost of living can quickly erode income.

Add kids, dependents, cars, transportation, day care, private schools... and
it's a net wash (or possibly even net negative with more debt).

[EDIT: If we're getting _precise_ here, the effective tax is 38.18% before
deductions. The point being that $150K yr is near the poverty line in bay
area. $200K is barely enough to survive. $300K is what a FAANG will pay 90
percentile Engineers to ensure they're comfortable]

~~~
dmode
This math is remotely not accurate. 42% tax rate ? Tax rates are progressive.
I made a whole lot more last year and my effective Federal + State was 28%.
Remember, there are a ton of deductions available. $6k in rent ?? Who pays
that ? I have a large house and my mortgage payment is close to 4.5k. And I am
building massive equity on my home as well as paying down an expensive asset.
Home insurance is $1k for the whole year, while health insurance is roughly
$250/month for the whole family. If you play your cards right, you can save
upto 200-300k in 3-4 years. Now here's the cherry on top. Add a partner who
makes the same amount.

~~~
matchagaucho
Enter $300K into [https://smartasset.com/taxes/income-
taxes](https://smartasset.com/taxes/income-taxes)

Take home pay for CA is $185K

~~~
dmode
I entered "married" in the same calculator and it gives me a 29.75% effective
rate and 210k take home. If your math above is for a single person, I haven't
met anyone who is paying more than $2500 in rent. $6k for a single person is
way out of range.

~~~
nomel
> I haven't met anyone who is paying more than $2500 in rent.

Out of everyone know, I'm the only one paying under $2500. How many bedrooms
and what's the square footage of these places? Are they shared?

