
The antidepressant effect of sleep deprivation - onuralp
https://mosaicscience.com/story/staying-awake-surprisingly-effective-way-treat-depression/
======
uhhyeahdude
How very odd for me to find this on HN this evening. I'm on "day 2" of my once
a week sleep fast, which means things are a bit surreal to begin with.

For each of the last seven weeks, I stay awake from Thursday morning until my
"regular" bedtime hour Friday evening.

I do this because it actually seems to be an effective way to avoid falling
into a hole of anhedonia and "stuck-ness." I am hip to many of the cognitive
tricks of depression, and can deal, kind of--I am utterly unable to deal with
the physical listlessness and absence of drive that comes with it.

Skipping sleep on a set schedule seems to work for me. At first I didn't think
I could keep it up, and I was concerned by potential safety hazards. My
concerns are justified, as I am pretty loopy by Friday afternoon, or around
the 32 hour mark.

Of all the esoteric treatments for my mood, this is perhaps the only real
success except for Yoga (BKS-style Ashtanga).

I have a feeling I might receive some benefit from ascetic practices in
general; and will experiment with caloric restriction, e.g. in future months.

I have no idea if I should expect the effects of this practice to remain
pronounced, and my experience seems to differ somewhat from that described in
the article.

I sure hope I continue to benefit, because I don't respond well to any of the
usual methodologies. Also, I don't feel comfortable enough in the onions to do
a proper Ketamine trial.

// I don't mean to sound breezy. I only include that last note to emphasize
how unendurable my world was becoming.

If this makes sense to you, I feel for you. One foot in front of the other...

The downside: I am totally sober, but I know my executive function is not
working very well, and I may very well regret commenting.

edit: some glaring issues with words

~~~
pgt
Wow! I awoke early this morning from a bit of a bender last night and have a
similar feeling of mania (the positive, productive kind). At first I
attributed it to a GABA rebound, but thinking back, a sleep fast has
historically injected a sense of urgency and vigour.

I have been fasting intermittently after reading Valter Longo's metabolic
oxidation research (the term they used for aging research to get it
published). I skip breakfast and try to leave 16-18 hours between meals. Have
been losing weight but keeping muscle tone almost effortlessly. My skin has
also improved. No negative effect so far.

Good interview about I.F.:
[https://youtu.be/d6PyyatqJSE](https://youtu.be/d6PyyatqJSE)

~~~
gingerlime
I'm also skipping breakfast. Trying to keep at least 16 hours between dinner
and lunch. Started nearly a year ago. Generally I feel better, and intend to
continue, but:

* Somehow I didn't lose much weight. I wasn't particularly overweight to begin with though. Maybe lost 1-2kg over this period(?)

* My blood tests showed _increase_ in cholesterol. I was reading about it and it seems common (or not very uncommon). It's still not too bad, but higher than before.

Actually, I'm not sure what I'm trying to say or ask :) but mostly curious if
there's something I'm doing wrong I suppose.

~~~
52-6F-62
You should be careful doing that too regularly. Once a week is the maximum
I’ve understood would be healthy for typical first world lifestyles.

It will otherwise coax your body into starvation response. This is true even
with low calorie diets.

You can cause you’re body to retain store energy and retain fat rather than in
a constant state of burning what you take in.

If you’re looking to lose weight you’re better off just limiting carbohydrates
on non workout days. Eat a lot of vegetables and protein, take a multi, and do
cardio and high intensity interval training 3-5 times a week.

If you want to build strength and lose weight then mix in resistance training
into the routine as well.

As a baseline that schedule will help with anxiety, depression, and get your
metabolism on track.

For most people, that is. I’ve been on antidepressants before as well as some
anxiolytics. Excercise, vitamins, and eating healthy most of the time does a
world of difference. Another benefit is you don’t have to limit you’re
calories as harshly. Energy levels go up as well— to the point where sitting
at a desk all day is too much idling!

Btw, I eat between 2 and 6 eggs a day (between breakfast and lunch), use
butter/olive oil/sesame oil in cooking regularly, and my cholesterol has never
been high following that general scheme. No hacks or tricks.

[https://www.health.harvard.edu/diet-and-weight-loss/does-
met...](https://www.health.harvard.edu/diet-and-weight-loss/does-metabolism-
matter-in-weight-loss)

~~~
gingerlime
> Once a week is the maximum I’ve understood would be healthy for typical
> first world lifestyles.

As far as I understand, the 16-hour fasting (skipping breakfast) is something
you keep doing rather than once a week. Unlike a 24/48+ hour fasting some
people do once in a while... Maybe I missed some crucial piece of information?

~~~
52-6F-62
Yes, that calorie reduction to that degree increases the chance (body type-
dependant) that your’ll induce starvation prevention reactions in your body.
An at rest adult human typically requires 2000 calorie sharing a day to
maintain weight. That’s if you never left your bed. Regularly reducing that
further will cause your body to store more energy which results in fat gain.
And not always the good kind.

The simple way for me to put it is move your body and fuel it regularly for
the best results. You don’t have to fast 16 hours a day, and I d wager you’d
meet better results without doing so.

If you don’t want to move your body then that’s a whole other world of
questions. But if you’re generally healthy and capable, you should.

~~~
sutterbomb
The IF literature I’ve read indicates that calorie reduction isn’t really a
goal, though it often happens to some degree. But I’m generally not taking in
2/3rd of prior calories just because I’m eating 2/3rd of the meals - more like
3/4 or 4/5.

This is all new to me so curious where you’re getting this info from so I can
read up.

~~~
52-6F-62
No problem. I really brought up calories, etc due to the other posters
mentioning limited weight loss (or sometimes gain) as well as increased
cholesterol even though they were reducing the frequency of meals (I was
guessing at a reduction in calories because of that, though it’s fair to say
that I don’t _really_ have that insight in this case)

The info I’m conveying is part coaching, part experience/anecdotal, and part
reading aggregate from health studies, running and sports health magazines, as
well as general health magazines.

My parents were national-level athletes (70’s/80’s) and, later on, coaches. My
mother was certified to coach in the Olympics (though she did not and
continued her work locally). I was an athlete when I was younger and learned
most of it then, but have in recent years taken a return to focusing more on
my health. Also much of my reading stemmed from trying to lose weight after
quitting smoking (also went from a physical job to a physically-idle one
around the same time. Gained nearly 50 pounds. I was on antidepressants and
anxiolytics at the same time. It was messy)

My girlfriend’s step mother is competing at the world championship Iron Man
race this fall in Kona, and her advice was much the same (we plug everyone we
can for coaching. Her stepmom even has her on a custom workout).

I don’t have much hard reading I can provide off hand, but a few searches
surrounding the points I put out there should yield quite a bit of
information. Primarily links between excercise and how it helps with
depression and anxiety, and metabolic studies including starvation responses.

If you want to continue the discussion further I’d be happy to, and happy to
help find further info that might resound more than some hexadecimal-aliased
rambler on a message board. ;)

------
romwell
I've definitely noticed that this works for me on occasion - staying up all
night to see the sunrise and then going about as usual seems to be a cleansing
experience of sorts.

In such a state, it feels that the mind is too exhausted to lend itself to
worry or anxiety. The troubles seem far less consequential through the haze.

I didn't keep track of what happens the day after catching up on sleep, but in
general, being lifted even for a single day out of the quagmire is very
helpful: one can make plans for the future (in a depressed state, people tend
to not make any plans because they don't want anything, and what they want,
they think they can't do), and one can feel contrast between their good and
bad states of mind (depression tricks people into thinking that their
depressed state is actually their normal state).

That said, sometimes staying up all night just meant sleeping all day -- and I
don't know to which extent my experience even compares with the one of the
people in the article.

Still, it's something everyone suffering from the symptoms can try for free.
Beats a night of restlessness and bad sleep hands down, and there's little to
lose if you experiment on a weekend.

~~~
agumonkey
exhaustion is often a nice way to cleanse; but I've been ill to the point of
not being asleep for 5 days, and the confusion was nearing madness to the
point I'd avoid feeling that way as much as possible :)

------
perlgeek
Somehow my quackery detectors go off on this one, but I'm not quite sure.

The article talks about "recent studies" without linking to them. The
"references" section at the end links to a single peer-reviewed article
([https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5447205/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5447205/))
in a journal with an impact factor of less then one (compare
[https://www.researchgate.net/journal/0379-5284_Saudi_medical...](https://www.researchgate.net/journal/0379-5284_Saudi_medical_journal)
for example).

If it works, why not give some citations in more reputable journals, for
example?

Most articles, when searching for depression + sleep deprivation, talk about
the correlation between the two, which seems to be pretty well-established.
There's little on the possible treatment of depression through sleep
deprivation.

I found a meta-analysis on the subject:
[http://europepmc.org/abstract/med/28937707](http://europepmc.org/abstract/med/28937707)

"The overall response rate to sleep deprivation was 45% among studies that
utilized a randomized control group and 50% among studies that did not. The
response to sleep deprivation was not affected significantly by the type of
sleep deprivation performed, the nature of the clinical sample, medication
status, the definition of response used, or age and gender of the sample.These
findings support a significant effect of sleep deprivation and suggest the
need for future studies [...]"

I don't have the qualifications to assess this meta analysis; at least it's
published in a more popular/reputable journal.

~~~
dahart
I felt a little bit like this last time the subject was on HN, and after
similarly looking into the research further, I feel like the treatment is
valid and works, but only for specific people with specific problems. It's
very important that the article qualifies this as working only for severe
depression and/or possibly bipolar disorder.

Treatments having the opposite effect on someone with an uncommon symptom as
they do on the general population aren't unheard of. Like how some people with
real ADHD are calmed by caffeine.

I attribute my disbelief about sleep deprivation to not having heard about
this before and to the mountain of social narrative around good regular sleep
being so critically important to your health, which also has evidence but
isn't trivial to pin down specifically by reading research journals.

------
B-Con
It sounds like the theory behind this is kicking the circadian rhythm to see
if it improves.

> Depression is also associated with altered daily rhythms of hormone
> secretion and body temperature, and the more severe the illness, the greater
> the degree of disruption. Like the sleep signals, these rhythms are also
> driven by the body’s circadian system, which itself is driven by a set of
> interacting proteins, encoded by ‘clock genes’ that are expressed in a
> rhythmic pattern throughout the day.

A classic, almost cliche, way to address "common depression" is to normalize
the person's sleep schedule. Many people keep erratic schedules and
participate in activities (eg, playing video games) at end of day that make
going to sleep hard. They get poorer quality sleep and have no consistency,
which messes up the circadian rhythm and contributes to depression. Such
people are advised to at least try keeping a consistent sleep schedule for a
couple weeks to see if it helps them.

The technique in the article seems to be the figurative opposite, possibly
because regular sleep cycles are either inadequate or infeasible to achieve.
They force a short-term horrible sleep cycle to see if they can jolt the
circadian rhythm into working better.

~~~
lloeki
I can attest that for me a regular sleep schedule works, but only so far.

At first it works kinda well as I feel increasingly settled as days go by, but
at some point it seems being too restful kicks my mind into overdrive mode.
From experience I can now detect such events, as it starts with a general
feeling of everything being awesome, incredible energy, and fantastic
happiness as I just am _there_ (as with mindfulness and meditation), do many
things† for a day or two, then everything inevitably crashes down†† as I start
feeling increasingly but subtly anxious about minute details, followed by an
increasing inability to focus and then comes listlessness. If a (even
remotely) bad event happens right after the peak happiness state it can send
me spiralling down even faster.

The only thing that can curb that is:

\- an occasional short night (like getting 3 to 4 hours of sleep) once a week
or so, after which I feel surprisingly refreshed. Sometimes it happens
naturally as I wake up in the middle of the night and can't sleep, or go to
bed late. But it better not last two or three days in a row or then the
crashing down thing happens and it's even harder to climb up as the added
sleep deficit combined with listlessness makes me very sleepy during the day.
Note: I am largely unable to voluntarily control my sleep schedule.

\- regular strenuous physical exercise, like daily, and for hours, and
preferably outside. It seems I need to shoot my body through a satiated state
of physical sensations in order to saturate my nervous system and keep my mind
in check. I can skip a day or two but exercising, say, every other day doesn't
check out as though the slope, while less steep, is still trending downwards.
Outdoors is incredibly important to me as there are so much more physical
stimuli (light, wind, sounds) and with greater variations than indoors.

\- food and water. Regular hydration is capital for me, and some kind of
mineral water is best. Tap water is out of question for some reason (strangely
seems to upset my bowel/urinary system after a few days). A balanced diet can
do wonders but it seems I can be derailed easily on that front.

I sort of picture my mood swings as _f(t+phi) = mood_ , with f basically
resembling a sine wave, and physical exertion seems to help me in adjusting
phi. My general strategy to combat that is to try to hit that sweet spot where
I'm right before the super-happiness point and attempt to ride the wave using
exercise, caffeine and nicotine†† (sadly, using tobacco).

Honestly though I try not to put too much thought into it as I managed to turn
anxiety about the situation into more like curiosity. Anyway on a larger scale
the general mood trend is sensibly upwards as looked at retrospectively I'm
climbing inch by inch out of that hole.

† I tried not being so hyperactive, pacing myself and not doing so many things
but it doesn't change a thing to the process.

†† I found out that one of the dead giveaways of when I'm trending towards the
downward slope is that I start skipping on automatically hydrating myself.

††† caffeine seems to act as a baseline offset but too much outright prevents
sleep, while nicotine seems to act as a dampener, both for high and low swings
of mood.

~~~
Jarwain
If you're using nicotine to help regulate your mood, I would definitely
recommend grabbing a vape; your lungs will thank you.

On the flip side, a vape 'may' not be as effective, as it is possible its one
of the other chemicals in tobacco that's helping. Tobacco is known to act as
an MAOI, and MAOIs tend to be prescribed as antidepressants

------
geoka9
Haven't read the article yet, but it sounds grim, I don't think it can be good
for me.

Instead of forced sleep deprivation, try this for a week: intermittent fasting
and calorie restriction, good nutrition (veggies, nuts, olive oil, eggs,
etc.), no drinking (at all), going to bed early (like 10 pm), waking up early
(at dawn in the summer at 4 am would be perfect), but naturally, without an
alarm clock.

Doing this, you may find out that you only need 5-6 hours of sleep, especially
in the summer. And moderate (outdoors) exercise - this is important.

Since a lot of you guys are in the bay area, you have a lot of sun during the
year; that makes this routine a lot easier and more rewarding (sunshine
increases the feeling of "high" for most people).

After doing this for a while, you might find out you're naturally high all the
time, without going through crashes.

~~~
djsumdog
> good nutrition (veggies, nuts, olive oil, eggs, etc.)

I'd highly recommend reducing carb intake; cut out your bread, sugar, starch,
pasta and try to stick with meat and greens. Low carb diets (Keto, Adkins,
etc.) made a huge difference for me health wise.

~~~
obmelvin
Ugh. Carbs are fuel. Cutting out the specifics you mentioned are good, but
generally cutting out carbs is not good for most people.

~~~
grzm
Carbs are one source of fuel/calories. Fats are another, and protein as well
(albeit to a much lesser extent).

~~~
obmelvin
Yes, but if you look at studies for the vast majority of people the common
denominator across diets like the GP mentioned is improved diet quality and
eating less. Most people don't need to remove carbs themselves. Sure, pasta is
refined grain etc, but if you are well and not overeating then there's nothing
wrong with it. A (if not the) primary problem is that people tend to overeat
things that contain lots of carbs and/or fats that fail to satiete.

~~~
grzm
To your point, restricting carbs in those diets is one of the keys to eating
less. You mention (and rightly so) that "people tend to overeat things that
contain lots of carbs and/or fats that fail to satiate": if there aren't carbs
in the mix, fats (and protein) satiate more quickly (and for longer) than when
accompanied by a hefty portion of carbs.

'djsumdog pointed out diets that many have found successful and meet the
requirements that 'georka mentioned, moving the conversation forward
constructively. If you have diets suggestions that also meet those
requirements, or constructive criticism that 'georka's or 'djsumdog's points
are off base and have alternatives, great!

As for "Most people don't need to remove carbs", at least in the US, while
complete removal isn't necessary, I believe many could benefit from
restricting their carb intake, keeping everything else constant (as long as
they're getting adequate protein and vitamins/minerals). Whether that's due to
shifting the macronutrient balance or just from the reduced caloric input,
they should see a benefit, and likely will not feel hungry. It sounds like you
agree that low carb diets can benefit people. In that case, if you have other
diets you prefer, offer them up constructively (though likely elsewhere, as
this is now well-off the beaten path of this thread).

------
lkrubner
For me, the big shock has always been the extent to which sleep can kill a
fantastic streak of productivity. I sometimes have weeks of incredible energy,
where I work 12 or even 14 hours every day, and I do my best work, and I have
deep insights, and invent new products and new kinds of software. And
generally, over the course of a week or two, I become more productive each
day. And finally I have a day when I am on fire and I'm writing incredible
code and I'm writing some of my most popular essays, the stuff that continues
to be read years later. And I go to sleep thinking that tomorrow will be just
as good. And I sleep 9 hours. And I wake up and I am a completely different
person. My thoughts don't make sense. I'm a bit disoriented. I drink 3 cups of
coffee but I still feel groggy. I have no energy. The magic is gone. I'm lucky
if I get 4 hours of good work done. And the next day is terrible, and the next
day is terrible, and the so on. And it is always a shock what a sudden start
there is to this prolonged grogginess, and it always seems to start with one
night where I sleep a bit too long.

~~~
projectramo
Maybe you’re mixing up cause and effect. Maybe your “sleep” was collapsing
with exhaustion when it all caught up?

~~~
lkrubner
That theory would only work if sleep caused me to feel refreshed. But I don't
think any of us have ever had the experience that more sleep lead to more
awakeness. It's not as if we are well rested after 8 hours of sleep, and even
more energized by 9 hours of sleep, and even more energized by 10 hours of
sleep, and even more energized by 11 hours of sleep, etc.

I think most of us have had the experience of over-sleeping, and then being
strangely groggy all day. Certainly, most of my friends have had that
experience.

~~~
projectramo
That may be because your sleep deficit is say 20 hours and your need 8 (6 if
lucky) to break even so you need something like 10 hours a day for 10 days to
catch up.

All this is to say I occasionally feel groggy but if I consistently sleep “a
lot” I feel great after a few days.

------
tombrm
"if you’re depressed, [sleep deprivation] can prompt an immediate improvement
in mood, and in cognitive abilities. But, Benedetti adds, there’s a catch:
once you go to sleep and catch up on those missed hours of sleep, you’ll have
a 95 per cent chance of relapse."

Sounds like there's a high risk for turning depression into insomnia. Not sure
if it's an improvement.

~~~
hihungryimdad
Yep, once I caught up on my sleep the next day would be the same anxiety,
depression cycle all over. Crazy to read about this today after having this
exact phenomenon happen to me years ago.

------
yani
My personal experience is exactly the opposite. Lack of sleep induces
depression. This is also supported by many studies. I recommend this read
[http://healthysleep.med.harvard.edu/healthy/matters/conseque...](http://healthysleep.med.harvard.edu/healthy/matters/consequences)

~~~
Synaesthesia
In the article it says:

“Sleep deprivation really has opposite effects in healthy people and those
with depression,” says Benedetti. If you’re healthy and you don’t sleep,
you’ll feel in a bad mood. But if you’re depressed, it can prompt an immediate
improvement in mood, and in cognitive abilities.”

~~~
exodust
Sounds like the theory relies on distraction to provoke attention away from
depression. "Look at that shiny thing over there". Unfortunately the shiny
thing is the effect of unhealthy sleep deprivation.

------
peterburkimsher
My experience is that sleep deprivation amplifies emotion. That can be good or
bad feelings. It's like an op-amp.

Prayer is like a diode. It manages the low emotions.

Together, sleeping less and praying more works like an AC-DC rectifier. My
average emotion moves above zero, so things are better.

------
master-litty
I'm in the middle of a sleepless night now and am already feeling that
familiar high.

I've never met anyone beyond family who could relate -- especially about the
cognitive improvements, this is when I do my best work! This is an
exceptionally interesting post for me.

Much of my mother's side is bipolar and it continues in me. As long as I can
remember noticing, I run through 3 very definitive emotional states:

* I am feeling productive and withdraw from society. I get frustrated when I'm unable to work and often go without sleep to make up lost time

* I am feeling social and withdraw from the extreme productivity. I simply don't want to sleep when I can have late night company

* I am feeling depressed and withdraw from everything and everyone. I am inconsolable and confused by my mood. I eventually and magically get sick of it, often after a sleepless night

The sleep deprivation is a critical part of my natural rhythm now that I
really think about it. The article rings deeply true.

------
mjfl
So the cure for depression is to take hallucinogens like ketamine or
deliberately deprive yourself of sleep? It's like making yourself happier by
making yourself less sharp. Perhaps, then, one is depressed because one is
_rational_ \- because there are real, serious problems with life that need to
be dealt with, not escaped. The recent "cures" sound almost Huxley-an.

~~~
ehnto
You can have everything you want in life and still be depressed. I find even
people who have been there and overcome can forget this about depression.

Depression is a thing that happens to you, an ailment that occurs. Sadness
about a sad thing is not depression, apathy because things aren't going okay
is not depression. They can lead to depression if they go on long enough, but
they aren't themselves a mental disorder. They're just emotions.

Depression is a mental disorder. An incorrectly operating subroutine in your
brain that's flooding you with emotions that make no sense and shutting down
others that you would normally feel given the circumstances.

You stop smiling at puppies, you stop crying for movies, but then you cry
because you dropped your fork, and get annoyed that people you love are
talking (okay, sometimes that's normal!).

Granted, your line of thinking is why I think some people stay at jobs they
hate, stress themselves out with it, and then fall into depression through
years of stress and apathy toward their health. But you could also suffer from
depression while working a job you love and sleeping on stacks of cash every
night.

~~~
psyc
This isn't wrong, but it is a simplistic model of one layer of depression,
which can be a pragmatic way to look at it for some people during some
periods, typically the most severe periods. I've suffered from severe
depression for my whole adult life, and I am thankful that I haven't had a
psychiatrist who subscribed to the medical model as an absolute, in many
years. The big picture of depression can indeed be about your life, and no
psychiatrist I've seen in the past 15 years has failed to acknowledge that.
It's well known that major depression often follows major life stresses such
as divorce, breakups, deaths, trauma, other illnesses, and so on. I've never
found it fruitful to make it either all about the brain, or all about your
life. It's rather a feedback loop between the two. The very nature of
subjectivity makes it almost nonsensical to try to distinguish between your
mind and your life, from your own perspective. And there's a reason treatment
almost always includes talk therapy. I've always been able to articulate what
my depression is about. Some people can't. It's just not so clear cut.

------
shams93
Personally I find it's the opposite if I'm not well rested I feeling death and
feel super depressed. I had a job that believed this and limited us sometimes
to only 90 minutes sleep. I never worked with a more angry group of people.
I'm 46 years old, working like that at 45 almost killed me. Oversleeping can
also be a factor in depression but there is a golden sweet spot of just enough
sleep and not too much that can vary greatly between individuals you have to
find out for yourself what that sweet spot is. Certainly 90 minutes is not
enough to sustain health

~~~
jlarocco
> I had a job that believed this and limited us sometimes to only 90 minutes
> sleep.

Can you elaborate on that? How could your employer possibly control something
like how long you sleep?

------
adamnemecek
I’ve experienced this first hand. However the line is very thin as sleep
deprivation tends to ricochet in the other direction.

------
hihungryimdad
Roughly 2 years ago I fell into a depression because of debilitating anxiety.
The anxiety would keep me awake through the night. Low and behold the whole
next day the depression and anxiety would be gone. I wouldn't be overly tired
either, so the trade off was fine. This would happen roughly once or twice a
week. Always, the next day following a sleepless night I pretty much felt
'normal'.

Eventually I swallowed my pride and went to the doctor and was prescribed an
SSRI & NDRI. I was too afraid to take the SSRI(with anxiety can some OCD, I
was obsessed for awhile I was becoming schizophrenic) so only took the
NDRI(Wellbutrin, generic). Eventually it pulled me out of my depression and I
was began sleeping normally again. I weened off the NDRI about 6 months later.

Luckily the depression hasn't came back, in full force. I go through cycles of
what I would say "mini-depression" every once awhile, but I am able to push
through and conquer. The medicine was a must for me to get through my
depression and get back on a normal sleep cycle. I don't miss the sleepless
nights at all, but they sure helped me stay somewhat sane during those rough
times.

~~~
KurtMueller
The symptoms you described in your first paragraph describe what I'm currently
going through to a tee. Theses symptoms only started about a week ago for me.

Day 1: Debilitating anxiety, can't concentrate.

Night 1: Can't sleep, overwhelmed by anxious rumination.

Day 2: Anxiety eventually subsides because I'm so exhausted. By the evening,
I'm feeling like my old self again - I might have anxious thoughts but they
don't become obsessive ruminations.

Night 2: Sleep well. Repeat cycle.

\---

I'm glad you got better. Hopefully the same will happen for me as well.

------
amelius
Ok, so this is _one_ possible thing to try when one has depression. Who is
keeping a list of _all_ things to try, and where does this experiment fit in
that list?

~~~
jimnotgym
Sounds like a a web app with voting would be a useful thing. In the UK mental
health services have almost disappeared, especially for those who are not
extreme. Maybe a list of things to try yourself is useful?

~~~
jimnotgym
Well this got the better of me, there is now a list on Github
[https://github.com/Jimnotgym/Hacking_Depression](https://github.com/Jimnotgym/Hacking_Depression)

Please PR if you want to comment. I'll do a ShowHN once there is more on it

~~~
amelius
This is a great initiative!

Some quick ideas. Perhaps you can mention what should determine the order in
the list. For example, every experiment has:

\- A success rate.

\- An average time to noticeable improvement

\- An average time to recovery.

\- Risk and severity of side effects.

\- Cost.

\- Difficulty.

\- More?

So for example, checking for nutritional deficiencies (very important) or
other tests can be near the top of the list (little side effects, low cost,
not difficult, etc). But psychotherapy should be near the bottom (high cost,
difficult, long recovery time, etc.)

Perhaps split according to cure/prevention/coping strategy. (For example SSRIs
are in many cases a coping strategy and not a cure).

Again, great work!

~~~
jimnotgym
If we can get a consensus about what people are doing, rather than just what
is getting posted on HN I am happy to write a quick app that applies your very
sensible success criteria. Comments Issues and PR are most welcome

------
cl0ne
Interesting, this has worked for me on occasion during times of suffering from
depression and anxiety and I was wondering about it recently. Sometimes I have
trouble sleeping and have noticed positive effects in my mood and energy level
the next day after staying up all night.

------
kevingrahl
> “We can think of it not as sleep-depriving people, but as modifying or
> enlarging the period of the sleep–wake cycle from 24 to 48 hours,” says
> Benedetti. “People go to bed every two nights, but when they go to bed, they
> can sleep for as long as they want.”

That reminds me of the sleep experiments performed by Michel Siffre [1] in the
60‘s & 70‘s who studied the experience of time underground without time cues.
He found that without time cues, several people including himself adjusted to
a 48-hour rather than a 24-hour cycle.

[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michel_Siffre](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michel_Siffre)

[2] www.cabinetmagazine.org/issues/30/foer.php

------
jokoon
I have a history of depression and anti depressants. I stopped them some years
ago, and I went to a 2 weeks military training 3 years after I stopped those
meds.

Not only did I love it, but it really gave a big energy boost. Awesome sleep.

Maybe depression comes from boredom.

------
77pt77
Another way is travelling and getting hit by a considerable time difference.

It seems resetting your circadian rhythm can, in some circumstances, have
beneficial effect.

I knew someone that referred to doing that as "degaussing".

------
haywardgb
I disagree with that study. Myself and a colleague used to go for days on what
were called "micro naps". After a certain amount of practice you can train
your mind to hit REM within the first few seconds of shutting your eyes for
sleep.

Over time it really messes with your head. You become very irritable. Lookup
"Peter Tripp, radio DJ". A very famous story with a very sad ending. Long-term
sleep deprivation is very bad for you. I know, I've tried it.

------
ClassyJacket
I can anecdotally confirm that for me, sleep deprivation appeared to
significantly alleviate symptoms of severe anxiety. Around a year ago I was
having what I think you'd call panic attacks every day and general anxiety all
day. I had a breakdown of I think about six weeks, mostly focused on my
insecurity about not having a better job, masters degree, etc. Etc. I was non
functional.

I read about the sleep deprivation studies then. One day I had stayed up very
late anyway, so I decided I would just wrap it around and stay up all night. I
had no job to go to anyway.

That day I had no strong attacks and generally felt far more relaxed. It was a
great respite.

However, it's very temporary. For me it felt like respite, not a cure. A break
from attacks and nerves. It came back over the next few days. I wish I'd kept
a more detailed diary. Why I'm okay now I can't say for sure, however I sleep
too little and quite badly now, being busy with work, clubbing, parties, and
coding in my spare time, so there's possibly a correlation there - causation,
who knows. I don't think eight hours of sleep is bad, I think it's beneficial,
but I do think over sleeping is harmful to mental health and easy to do - my
theory is that like high calorie foods, we didn't evolve with unlimited sleep
available to us, so getting too much just wasn't a thing.

Of course, it's one data point and could be the placebo effect for
coincidence, but, much like my experience using MDMA to improve a depressive
attitude (careful: may make it worse for some people), the effect was real
enough to me that I personally believe in it and think it can be valuable to
at least a subset of people if used carefully.

------
ada1981
The most useful model of depression I've found is that it's anger directed
inward.

Essentially, a restriction of emotional freedom and a suppression of feeling
all our emotions.

This is typically due to trauma or neglect or some other developmental
adaptation not to feel fully.

This is reinforced by a culture in which people try to fix or cheer you up
when sad or angry.

In a culture where actually feeling basic human emotions are taboo, feeling
said emotions can be extremely isolating.

If you've never felt safe fully feeling your emotions, it will be unlikely you
will ever learn unless you conciously work on it and build relationships with
people who can hold space for your entire range of experience.

Psychedelics can help because they loosen the pathways of suppression and can
help us reintegrate the parts of ourself that we've been suppressing.

Main stream treatments like SSRIs end up making things worse long term because
they just reinforce suppressing symptoms.

I spent a decade of my life dealing with depression, psychosis, schizophrenia,
suicidal thoughts, bipolar, anxiety and panic attacks.

The things that helped me were a mindset that feeling all of my emotions was
fully was required to be healthy, seeking out people and processes to help me
get more embodied and to feel, Psychedelic therapy (specifically to be able to
go deeper into emotion), NARM therapy to help me do relationship in a way that
was connected; telling the 100% truth in relationship and holding space for
the emotions that emerge; falling and staying in love; Gratitude.

I've mapped out these states of consciousness enough in myself and in people
I've worked with combined with finding enough accounts of others as well as
emerging research to believe that we are on the cusp of a fundamental shift in
how people deal with mental health.

I'm now in love and enaged, working on a number of creative projects, my
relationships are antifragile and honest, I have a practice helping others
with relationships & mental health; don't take psychiatric medication
(occasionally a tune up with psychedelics); and if I encounter a context which
triggers something like depression, psychosis, mania, anxiety, etc. I
understand how to work with those states to emerge from them even more
integrated and connected to myself.

The biggest developmental edge now is that once you start healing old traumas,
you need to finish the work. Meaning, things will continue to come to the
surface for your attention. It's not always easy, but the end result is always
worth the time and work to release and heal.

This last month I've really gotten aware of how being sexually assaulted at 25
really left an imprint. I had remembered what happened intellectually, but
realized I never released the somatic memory of it.

Residual anger, shame and fear kept coming up during sex with my fiancé and it
wasn't until I made space to fully go into those emotions that I was able to
see the connection with the assault (in grad school a male student got me
drunk under the pretext of going to pick up girls and then tried to have sex
with me while I was too drunk to move.)

So, the work is not done, but man, my life is unrecognizable to where it was
when I began this work and my creative life has really opened up to more
possibility (we just signed a contract to buy a tropical island in Panama and
build a village for visionaries! Please come visit!).

Anyhow, I feel its my dharma to share my story and experiences and the
personal research I've done, so thanks for giving me a space to do that.

~~~
wslh
Excellent comment. Returned after some hours to check if some other people
followed your thread and I felt the need to give you this simple feedback.

Feelings/Emotions are a neglected part of our western culture.

~~~
ada1981
The inner world is really our final frontier. Appreciate your feedback.

------
LeighoBeigho
On the herbals: Fishoil gel tablets work very well for depression, if you
don't mind some occasional fish smell. They keep me very clear when I take
them. Caveat: If you have MAOI inhibitor issues you gotta make sure you can
take certain supplements safely. This is a great discussion and the 2nd time I
have heard of the positive impacts of sleep deprivation on depression (SD/D).
1st time I didn't buy it because lack of sleep, unless I am working on a
project, makes me amped up and close to rowdy. I use the rowdiness to workout,
walk, skateboard or bike; all of the above manages depression and absorbs high
energy. Hearing so many intellectual viewpoints on YC makes the SD/D argument
more believable.I thought I was the only one with this issue.

------
tabs_masterrace
This is good news, but also shows how little we actually understand the
complexity of our bodies and our brain in particular. We have good
antidepressants, but besides observing the positive effects, there doesn't
seem much of a consensus on what exactly these psychoactive molecules are
doing to help.

So no surprise that something seemly simple like sleep deprivation can have a
massive effect on the issue. It's not like we understand all the mysteries of
sleep either.

The involved mechanism and chemistry are so complex, and we barley scrap the
surface, even with all the advances in medicine. So many people arguing about
what depression is, what it's causes are, but it would be foolish to assume we
have this even remotely figured out, and I would be very open-minded to
anything on this issue.

------
yedpodtrzitko
inb4 a lot of sources sleep deprivation is hurting your brain in a long term.
Not sure what's better.

~~~
rocqua
It should be noted that anti-depressants also have side effects.

~~~
yedpodtrzitko
I dont doubt that. The way how I treat depression myself is via acupuncture.
Works great so far.

------
m3kw9
If you are tired maybe you don’t think too much, thinking too much is part of
depression

------
alexozer
Saw this article and decided to try to roll over my half-phase-out-of-sync
horrific sleep schedule by staying awake through the next day. My mind was
nowhere near fully functional from the period of 6pm the first day through
11:30pm the next, but I somehow managed to experience a sense of urgency and
elatedness I may have forgotten how to feel over the last few years, and got
some work done to boot.

Unfortunately I'm back as hopeless as ever today, but I would be willing to
bet with a little more discipline it'd be a pretty great way to at the very
least quickly restore a sleep-early wake-early sleep schedule.

------
tda
> “Sleep deprivation really has opposite effects in healthy people and those
> with depression,” says Benedetti. If you’re healthy and you don’t sleep,
> you’ll feel in a bad mood. But if you’re depressed, it can prompt an
> immediate improvement in mood, and in cognitive abilities. But, Benedetti
> adds, there’s a catch: once you go to sleep and catch up on those missed
> hours of sleep, you’ll have a 95 per cent chance of relapse.

This is really counter intuitive to me. The article goes on explaining that
using a combination of skipping sleep, lithium and light treatment the results
are much better.

------
b0rsuk
I noticed this myself a long time ago. I have major anxiety, stress and
depression problems(the last one I mostly fixed).

When I stay up very late, or lose most of a night's sleep, I no longer care.
I'm very resistant to stress. The downside, aside from numerous all other long
term negatives of sleep deprivation, is that I can't focus on anything
moderately complicated and take loong to get anything done. It's like time
passes faster. And it's really hard to make decisions.

------
sevenfive
In retrospect, I've been leveraging this effect constantly since early high
school. I suspect this explains many people's poor sleep habits. Anyone else?

------
savanaly
Whenever I read about this sleep-cures-depression topic on HN (and it seems to
come up relatively often) I think about and often go back and read this post.
[0] Definitely doesn't have all the answers but it really changed how I
thought about the issue.

[0] [http://slatestarcodex.com/2016/12/14/ssc-journal-club-
mental...](http://slatestarcodex.com/2016/12/14/ssc-journal-club-mental-
disorders-as-networks/)

------
juanmirocks
Besides experimenting with polyphasic sleep and such, I could never think that
sleep deprivation could become a therapy.

Regardless of the validity of these claims, I welcome this new idea into my
brain.

------
krzyk
Strange, in my case (tested on myself and my wife) sleep deprivation (e.g.
sleeping and hour or two less than optimal sleep time) causes depression.

------
ninjakeyboard
Ya I used to pull an all nighter once a week. It has a lot of long term
deleterious effects but it does the trick for a day break from depression.

------
m3kw9
And then there is just a new article posted up there in HN that talks about
how bad sleep increases risk of depression

~~~
m3kw9
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16562599](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16562599)

------
dorfsmay
I've successfully managed allergies with sleep deprivation. The issue is that
it is obviously not sustainable.

~~~
rjdlee
Care to explain how?

~~~
dorfsmay
How: By keeping myself busy and not sleeping!

But I suspect that's not the question you were asking.

Does it really work: It works for me, yes. But we are all different and I
suspect it'd have different effect on different people.

Why does it work (for me)?

I don't know for sure, it could be placebo effect or... I have read that lack
of sleep affect the production of cortisol and histamine, interestingly enough
some studies say increase, some say decrease (could it be a different effect
based on individual?). The fact is, both histamine and cortisol affect the
immune response, and allergies are basically your immune system reacting too
much or reacting to the wrong thing.

Definitely not sustainable for more than 2 or 3 days, but it's a nice way to
take a break from drugs.

------
WheelsAtLarge
Careful with this, sleep deprivation is known to cause health issues.

[https://www.webmd.com/sleep-disorders/features/important-
sle...](https://www.webmd.com/sleep-disorders/features/important-sleep-
habits#1)

------
caseymarquis
This article confuses depression and bipolar disorder quite a bit. They're
inducing mania through sleep deprivation in patients with bipolar disorder
going through a period of depression. This is somewhat dangerous, as mania can
have severe consequences. The article even states that there's a 95% relapse
into depression for those not taking lithium. Only people with BPD take
lithium. It's not about the lithium, it's about that population having BPD.

DO NOT TRY THIS IF YOU HAVE BIPOLAR DISORDER WITHOUT MEDICAL SUPERVISION.
Inducing mania could ruin your life. If you don't have BPD, then this likely
won't work anyway.

I have several family members with BPD. Irregular sleep schedule is a major
warning sign that mania is coming on, and interrupted sleep schedule can
induce mania.

I can see why you might try this in a controlled setting, and I'm not saying
it doesn't work. I'm just saying that this is very dangerous, and should not
be done without qualified medical supervision.

~~~
Shikadi
It's probably worth noting that bipolar disorder and manic depression are the
same condition. In other words, bipolar disorder is a form of depression,
though they could have been more clear and said "other forms of depression" in
certain places.

~~~
_delirium
In recent writing it's usually seen as more clear to treat them as distinct
(though related) disorders rather than bipolar being a subset of depression,
although that usage is still common. The ICD, for example, classifies "Bipolar
affective disorder" (F31) and "Recurrent depressive disorder" (F33) as two
distinct disorders under the parent category "Mood [affective] disorders".

------
cup-of-tea
> Sleep deprivation really has opposite effects in healthy people and those
> with depression

I used to "play" with my sleeping pattern a lot. I would stay up extremely
late sometimes because it's impossible to go to sleep before a bug has been
fixed. But being a student I could just sleep in the next day. It had that
classic effect which is observed in hackers of drifting "West" and becoming
completely out of phase with the Sun's cycle.

I did suffer from depression. It's always difficult to say this, though. How
do I know that I _really_ had depression and I wasn't just unhappy? I don't
know. But maybe it suffices to say that I had near constant suicidal thoughts
at times.

I've since turned my life around and I am no longer depressed. I attribute it
to having a much more regimented life which includes regular and sufficient
sleep, regular, healthy meals and regular exercise.

So the above quotation suggests that I am "healthy". Presumably as opposed to
those that are "unhealthy" and _really_ have depression. But what is the
difference really? I have to do this particular thing to avoid depression, and
they have to do that particular thing to avoid it? Is it just that my "cure"
happens to be the same as everyone else's cure? Or am I missing something
here?

------
ebbv
Huh well whatever works for people. If I don’t get enough sleep I am more
prone to depression, not less.

