
Ask HN: Is this common in the gaming industry? - mr_digital
I just want to know if the following is pretty common thing in the gaming industry, being all new to the field I am not too sure. It would be nice to get feedback.<p>I recently applied for a junior software engineer position with Crytek(Germany).<p>As a first line of assessment they had given me a coding test to be completed within a week, the HR lady gets back to me after a day to tell me that I have only 2 days to complete it. No big deal, as I had already completed it the same day, I submit it.<p>Next after a couple of days, I was asked to attend an international telephonic interview with 4 senior programmers. Unfortunately for the interview, there were some technical problems from their side which resulted in a telephone call where I could hear their conversation but they could not hear me.<p>Shockingly, as they were trying to fix the problem for an hour without realizing that I could hear them, I overhead them making racial jokes&#x2F;taunts at me.<p>Without giving any further thought to what just had happened, I emailed the HR to request a re-schedule of the interview but I have still not received any reply. I am thinking they might have dropped my application for the fact that it maybe too much hard work for them to assess me.<p>what I would like to know from those of you who may have a lot of experience in the industry, is this something common, that one should expect when you interview in the gaming industry regardless of the company being an AAA games developer.<p>To be honest, I was shocked and appalled by the lack of professional courtesy.
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seannaM
Crytek is a huge mess, even by game dev standards (Which has a lot of huge
messes). They've recently gone through periods where they just stopped paying
their employees, they have a 2.5 score on glassdoor (That's pretty low.)

~~~
mr_digital
yeah I read that as part of my research on them for my interview.

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talon88
This is not common in the gaming industry, nor is it professional, nor would
it likely be legal in the United States. Given that they're in Germany,
though, I'm less sure of the laws there, so I can't speak to that.

Honestly, though, even if it were common, I would still not want to work on a
team like that, and not just for idealistic reasons (if you allow things like
that to happen you're just letting the industry continue to be racist, sexist,
etc): that behaving from a team you'd be working with would reflect poorly on
your career and your future, as the explicit racism would likely also exist
implicitly in performance reviews, compensation, and future recommendations.

~~~
naruse
totally agree

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hayksaakian
I'm not sure what you're looking for here.

Common or not, I would steer clear of any employer that behaves this way.

That might mean you have less options in the gaming industry if such behavior
is more common.

The easiest way to influence change on this issue is to name names and make
sure everyone avoids them like the plague.

Think about it this way, if the company you want to work for behaves this way
-- then maybe you don't want to work for that company in the first place.

~~~
mr_digital
what I am looking for is feedback that whether such a thing is common or not.
If it is, then I am simply making a big fuss out of it as this is my first
such experience and I will not be as shocked to expect such a thing again and
just keep trying.

~~~
rooster8
Regardless of whether it's common or not, I'm sorry to hear you had this
experience. I encourage you to not pursue a job with them if they contact you
back. You deserve to be treated with respect.

~~~
mr_digital
thanks.

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noonespecial
You got lucky and _they_ failed the interview. Now you won't be posting a long
entry at The Daily WTF this time next year.

~~~
mr_digital
I did not even know about DAILY WTF before you mentioned it.

~~~
protomyth
read Daily WTF and [http://clientsfromhell.net](http://clientsfromhell.net) to
prepare yourself for a career in consulting. Clients from Hell is a designer-
centric site but it mirrors the IT side way too well.

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Mithaldu
Honestly, i'm curious as to what the jokes/taunts were. Maybe you just
stumbled across something that's weird german humor? Since i am german i might
be able to give you an inside perspective. (Or confirm they're asshats.)

~~~
tesseractive
In general, if you make jokes that a member of another race would perceive as
racist, you've already done something wrong, even if _you_ don't perceive it
as racist, but just as some sort of "weird" humor.

If it made the interviewee feel unwelcome at the company, there is no possible
explanation that would make this ok -- the simple fact that they feel excluded
is what makes it not ok.

Making people feel excluded, or even doing or saying things behind closed
doors that would make people feel excluded if they knew about them, is part of
the problem that makes people who are not part of the majority feel unwelcome
in a company's culture, and in the industry as a whole.

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register
It's not the industry: it's the country. I worked with German suppliers and I
can tell you that German culture is generally permeated by a strong
"superiority complex". If you don't come from a Northern European country or
UK or USA people will generally be very suspicious about your honesty,
integrity and skills. You will have to prove yourself on the field to gain
trust. The strange thing is that I found the same attitude also in foreign
people that stayed in Germany for a long time and considered themselves German
as well. Of course this is a rough generalization and I found also a lot of
nice people without any prejudices however expect to be treated with distrust
when you are in Germany.

~~~
Mithaldu
In short: This happens because __in general__ engineering, __on average__,
german work is superior. Mind, this is not due to something inherent to
germans, but due to our social environment. In germany you tend to get paid
more* for your work and have more time to complete your work because it's
expected that you deliver quality. Meanwhile outsourced work is paid little
and expected quickly, so foreign workers (especially east-european) have
little incentive or reason to improve their work quality and even if they
care, have little opportunity to do so. (No time to actually read "Perl Best
Practices" when some german manager wants the work done 'now'.) Added to that
there's also the fact that higher education in germany is for all intents and
purposes free, adding just another early education edge for people here.

* higher wages all around, illegal to work without health insurance, law-mandated minimum paid vacation (24 days), all (real) sick days fully paid

~~~
register
This is the perfect example of the "it's not germans is that Germany is
better" meme that permeates the German culture directly from the words of a
German guy :). The hidden implication is that Germans engineers are better
because they grow up in a better environment. I'll leave it to you to judge.
Let me just add a small note: it's not uncommon to see IT companies in Germany
employing a lot of people from Eastern European countries.

~~~
Mithaldu
As i said, on average. For every company that tries to copy the american
outsourcing model and ends up with a crap heap because they're too cheap to
pay for good code, i've seen two that actually care.

Also, i don't get where you get the "hidden implication" bit from. I'm
outright stating that it is a fact that while german engineers may not be
better people, or developers, or engineers, they have a lot of advantages
pushing them beyond peers from less fortunate countries.

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hellbanner
Hi OP, I used to work for a big game company (that had great culture --
opposite of what you described!). I'm now working on indie games. Although
it's not as glamorous as the "games industry", you can find a day job or do
contracting in a more sensible industry.

The gaming industry is infamous for having killer 80 hour work weeks & sexist
culture.. if this is your first exposure, I recommend working in a different
industry that will appreciate and respect you then making some games on the
side with your friends.

~~~
mr_digital
I know about the work hours but the industry is responsible for many great
things and I do not want such an event to be a deciding factor to come out of
it.

Moreover, the indie option has always been at the back of my mind.

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midnightclubbed
I've been in the games industry for almost 20 years and have never heard of
anything like this happening. Coding tests are a fairly standard thing (good
or bad) and they may have had their reasons for switching up the timing -
would give Crytek the benefit of the doubt there.

However as someone who has been on the other end of those calls I am saddened
that you were treated to such an unprofessional and disgusting display. When
you contacted HR to reschedule did you mention how the interviewers treated
you with such disdain? I would hope that their HR and legal departments take
such behaviour very seriously (and HR probably have no idea what happened).

Personally I would take this experience as a bad sign for this particular
application and not pursue the job any further (would you want to risk dealing
with that every day). BUT you should make sure HR and senior management at
Crytek are aware of what happened - it sounds as though US law may well have
been broken (and probably european law also). Hopefully they will respond to
you in a positive way.

Despite the games industry getting a bad rap don't let this put you off. The
hit driven and creative nature of the industry does mean that sometimes the
wrong people get put in positions of power and responsibility, but there are
many well run companies out there where you'll be able to contribute to
exciting products and work with skilled and passionate peers.

When you get into the interview process remember that you are interviewing
them as much as they are you. If the job or company feels wrong you can and
should respectfully pass on them and keep looking for the perfect match.

Be persistent, be professional, sell yourself and you'll do great!

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hamburglar
I'd like to echo some of the sentiments that whether or not this is common,
you should probably just write this team off. It seems like they're assholes
and even if they could suppress it long enough to hire you, you'd know that
they really think shitty things about you because of your race.

However, the reason I'm bothering to reply here isn't that, it's to say that
you may simply want to reconsider aiming for the games industry. I know
working on games sounds sexy, and I wanted to do it once too, but I landed a
gig in the games industry once, and it made me realize that developing games
is not really any more fun than developing any number of other software
products, but it has the huge drawback that there are a bazillion people who
want to work on games bad enough that they will settle for a shitty salary
with shitty working conditions working on a shitty game. These are the
candidates you're competing against, so this is the candidate you will become.

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IvyMike
It is terrible that someone did this. Nobody should have to put up with that
bullshit.

I do not know anything about German law. But for reference, if this had
happened in the US, I would recommend that you contact an employment law
attorney, because as you described it you might have a basis for a lawsuit.
(Only a lawyer could tell you for sure.)

~~~
Jach
What would one hope to gain from such a lawsuit?

~~~
IvyMike
Compliance with Title VII of the Civil Rights Act. In the US, they would be
breaking the law, and that's how these things get enforced.

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EarthLaunch
I worked in the industry in California for four years before going indie. No,
that is not normal. There are good teams out there; aim for them. You want to
make friends in the industry more than you want a famous company on your
resume, and the two aren't mutually exclusive.

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UnnamedGamedev
This seems incredibly unprofessional to me. I'm an indie gamedev; my friends
are mostly 4chan posters, perverts, and unemployable layabouts. _WE_ know not
to tell deliberately offensive jokes in a professional context, how can
Crytek's staff not?

I don't have much experience looking for work with normal employers, so I
can't give you anything firsthand about how pervasive this sort of thing is,
but what you describe seems abnormally bad.

One thing to note: AAA development (at least in the US) is known for terrible
working conditions. If you want to go into game development, make sure you get
a good idea what the studio you're applying to will actually expect before you
accept a job.

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bbody
By the sounds of it you deserve better.

I definitely won't buy any games from them in the future.

~~~
pimlottc
Because of a single pseudonymous post on HN?

~~~
bbody
I don't play games period, just wanted to show my support.

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mikerichards
I'm assuming you're a few years out of university?

No, run..not walk..run from the game industry.

You should make $80-90k fresh out of college

Big demand. If you're smart and you know you're smart, demand 120k

After that, be a hero! and not a zero!

~~~
sillysaurus3
$120k for a college grad?

~~~
mikerichards
Yes, after 6 mos..you demand $120k, if you're good, and you know you are.
Demand $120k in St. Louis

~~~
sillysaurus3
For a college grad in St Louis? In what context? Webdev, or...?

~~~
mikerichards
Senior devs in St. Louis should at least demand $75/hr..which ain't much on
the coasts, but very good money here. You get it.

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empressplay
I don't think it's "common" but unfortunately casual racism can turn up
anywhere, even in software development companies.

I'm sorry that you had to experience that, but not surprised.

~~~
mr_digital
thanks, have you experienced something like this yourself?

The fact is when you are starting new in the industry (like me) such a thing
can quite easily be very demoralizing and be a deciding factor to not continue
in the industry.

~~~
MrDom
If this is all it takes to demoralize you, don't go into gaming. I put it off
for years myself because of the EA spouse scandal in 2004. When I graduated, I
went into web development instead. Years later, I had a convenient opportunity
to work at a gaming company and only stayed in the industry for 3 years.

When people say only work in gaming if you can't imagine doing anything else,
they mean it. The work is hard, the hours are long, the people are "colorful"
and most gaming companies are completely disorganized, even by startup
standards. Read "masters of doom" and realize what is depicted in that book is
practically industry standard, including the egos, yelling, screaming and off-
color humor. Some see those things are a bonus. Some don't.

The upsides are the technical problems and the coolness factor. To a certain
extent, gaming has ruined me for web development. After coding a solution to
efficiently visualize an EXPLODING PLANET, it's hard to get excited about
creating yet another social network.

~~~
mr_digital
Thanks for the advice and I did not know about the EA spounse scandal.

------
mikerichards
If you're Scandanavian then chill at home for a couple years and work on the
Unreal4 engine.

There is nothing better.

Work on some cool level-of-detail streaming. How can we massive streaming
worlds?

Think of Carmack when he was a pup!

------
pandaman
There are many different companies. Very few hire regularly. In a company that
is not hiring regularly the hiring process is not streamlined and the
experience will be completely random.

------
tslug
Yes and no. Crytek is a very unusual company with its own distinct
personality. If you're a graphics engine programmer or an artist, it would not
hurt your resume to work at Crytek. They make beautiful, sexy shit. If you're
just about anything else, there are a lot of good reasons not to work at
Crytek. They've spent a lot of time and money without having seen commensurate
returns.

Joking around in sometimes very non-politically-correct territory is not at
all uncommon in the game industry, but it is also not that uncommon in lots of
other industries. The things people say when they think they aren't being
heard are generally very different from what they say when they know they're
being watched/recorded. The typical butt of jokes in just about any industry
is whoever isn't in the room.

To be honest, I wouldn't worry much about racism. I'm not saying it isn't an
issue with some folks, but on the whole, if the game industry is anything,
it's a meritocracy. If you've got a fucking cool demo, you can open just about
any door with it. Many people of profoundly different colours, nationalities,
sexes (including indeterminate), behaviours, and smells have paved the way for
you.

It's very unlike film, for example, where there are strict hierarchies of who
you are and aren't allowed to talk to, and contacting the right people is
extremely difficult without the right introduction.

Actual talent and what you do with your time is so important to the game
industry that it eclipses just about everything else, including
professionalism. I'd definitely get used to that. They really don't want to
interview you. They want to make games. They don't want you to do tests. They
want to make games. They just want to know whether you're a fucking bad-ass
coder, to see whether they want you to make games with them. If you can prove
this in some other way (a great demo/game w/ source), you can also drop any
pretense of professionalism and tell them you're not going to do their tests
or interviews. Great coders with demonstrable proof of same are in such short
supply that you will still be seriously considered at most places.

~~~
codezero
Don't worry about racism because the game industry is a meritocracy? I don't
understand the logic here, can you elaborate?

~~~
tslug
People make racist, nationalist, sexist, and all other kinds of off-colour
jokes in the game industry, particularly when they don't think they're in
earshot of the butt of their jokes (obviously with some notable exceptions),
but it doesn't have much effect on whether you'll get or keep a job as a
coder. If you write sweet code, you write sweet code. End of story. People
will want to hire you.

~~~
codezero
This only enhances my point. People should be worried about racism. Great
coders can work anywhere. Why work amongst casual racists?

~~~
pandaman
Some people believe that racial jokes make one a racist as much as cannibalism
jokes make one a cannibal.

~~~
tesseractive
Yes. And those people are racists.

~~~
pandaman
Sure. Everywhere I worked there had been people from all countries and
continents but Antarctica, working together without any problems but they are,
apparently, racists.

You know, I'd rather be with friendly "racists" who have not fired anyone over
their alleged "racism" than anywhere in Tech, where one seems to have to be
conforming to the party line even outside the work in order to keep the job
(e.g. Adria Richards incident).

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stefan_kendall3
What were the racial slurs?

Come to the US. The game industry is tough and pays shit, but if anyone
actively makes racial slurs DURING AN INTERVIEW you're getting a payday via
lawsuit.

~~~
tesseractive
Only people who are not members of minority groups think that someone saying
something degrading to you is an easy path to riches. It simply doesn't work
that way in real life.

First off, no one is going to believe you, and everyone will seek to explain
it away and inpugn your credibility. But even if you somehow have audiovisual
evidence that proves your claims conclusively and you have a slam dunk court
case, there's zero chance that you're going to make enough money from it to
cancel out the income you will lose from making yourself effectively
unemployable to anyone who runs a background check on you. If you're on record
as a troublemaker that sues their employer, no one will hire you.

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angersock
Look, if you want to deal with racist jerks and bad telecom, you might as well
just do web development. You'll get paid better anyways.

(games industry is worst industry)

~~~
mr_digital
I have been told about this so many times before...

~~~
angersock
There's a reason for that. :|

