
Ask HN: What to do about distracting mental chatter? - jpeterson
This is a bit strange, but somehow I figured I would find fellows among this crowd. For some time now, I've been experiencing what I would characterize as highly distracting and annoying dialogue going on in my head, out of my control. This goes far beyond the usual stuff that happens during e.g. debugging or any other puzzle-solving activity. There are various different disconnected voices, and they will constantly whisper, speak, and shout inanities. Oftentimes it's quite profane, and sometimes I catch myself unintentionally vocalizing it.<p>Does anyone else here face this? Have you found any remedy? Have I gone nuts?
======
an0nym0us
I mirror the sentiments of everyone who said to see a psychiatrist. If you do
have schizophrenia, the good news is that it's not the end of the world. Start
taking medication, establish routines for yourself, and you can (continue to)
lead a meaningful life. One of the smartest and most productive people that I
know is a paranoid schizophrenic; another of the smartest people I know is a
chronic untreatable undifferentiated schizophrenic. I myself am a disorganized
schizophrenic, having been diagnosed eight years ago.

Now for the bad news: you should never have posted this, unfortunately, and
you should definitely keep information regarding your mental health very
private. Make sure everybody that you tell understands that it is confidential
information. I'd love to tell you that we live in a tolerant and understanding
society, but we don't. Schizophrenia is not well-understood by the general
population, and if people find out that you have it, you will have been marked
by the proverbial scarlet letter. If you're lucky, you'll find a group of
people who support you. If you're not, you can expect to be hounded, and you
may never escape it.

~~~
swombat
_you should never have posted this, unfortunately, and you should definitely
keep information regarding your mental health very private_

Since I have no experience of having mental illnesses myself, I cannot
disagree with you. And you're probably right - many people react with
intolerance to anything that's different and hard to understand. However, that
could be said for other quirks too (such as an unhealthy passion for
programming...), and I would imagine most people on this community are well
used to being treated as different. From entrepreneurs to technical gurus (or
both at the same time), we have severed ourselves from "normal society" in a
number of ways already.

Because of that, I would imagine that this kind of community is probably more
tolerant of these sorts of differences than most others. One piece of evidence
for that would be the useful advice posted here, and general lack of "Lolz
you're nuts" or "Get off the drugs" type of comment (well, there's one or
two..).

I'd like to also offer the anecdotal evidence that I know a number of people
with mental disorders and those mental disorders don't get in the way of us
being friends (in some cases very close friends). Not everyone ostracises
people with mental disorders.

~~~
eru
Yes. The more serious problem is: Google loves Hacker news. What happens in
here does not stay here.

~~~
rms
It's no big deal; just email pg and he'll kill the thread.

------
dfranke
See a doctor and do it soon, unless you're in your late teens or early 20's,
in which case do it yesterday. That's the peak age range for the onset of
schizophrenia.

~~~
swombat
To clarify this, hearing voices in the way you describe is a common symptom of
schizophrenia.

More info is available here: <http://www.schizophrenia.com/diag.php>

No one here can diagnose whether or not you have schizophrenia. Only a
qualified, experienced psychiatrist can do that. And if you have
schizophrenia, you very probably need medical help because it can get worse
with time, if left untreated.

~~~
tungstenfurnace
People here want to be helpful and responsible and so they are recommending
seeing a doctor or psychiatrist immediately.

I certainly wouldn't advise against that. However, it is also helpful to put
up a few countervailing arguments:

(1) Whether the psychiatric profession knows anything much is a legitimate
question. See for example,

<http://www.spiritus-temporis.com/rosenhan-experiment/>
<http://www.flickr.com/photos/romasita/1801370299/>
<http://www.szasz.com/freeman15.html>

(2) The diagnostic criteria for schizophrenia seem incoherent and lacking in
empirical content. Prostate cancer, OTOH, is an uncontroversially real
condition with clear cut symptoms and diagnosis.

(3) Being labelled with a mental disorder can be a huge stigma that you have
to deal with for the rest of your life. It might affect, for example, your job
prospects and your parenting propects. (People are learning in the UK that new
mothers are unwise to admit feeling depressed to medical staff.)

(3) Everybody has voices or at least one voice in their heads. It is just that
only a few people such as the poster and Richard Feynman have the necessary
self-awareness and intellectual integrity to talk about them openly.

As Eckhart Tolle might say, the real question is whether one _identifies_ with
the chattering voice. People who are completely identified don't perceive it
as an external entity, but it is still there: they _are_ the voice.

(4) Such voices are thoughts, and many of our thoughts are random and
contradictory. When we daydream (or dream at night) they are connected only by
loose associations. Nobody really has control of their thoughts. Try drinking
6 cups of coffee after a 24 hour fast and watch the cascade begin!

(5) By listening to our thoughts and becoming more aware of them we remain in
control of our actions. Just because we have a particular thought, it doesn't
follow we must enact it. The psychiatric profession is all about regulating
people's _behaviour_ for social reasons.

~~~
agola
As someone with a close family member who is schizophrenic and has spent a lot
of his life refusing treatment, I think it is inadvisable in the extreme to
deliberately avoid recognizing the condition, to minimize or trivalize it, and
deliberately avoid seeking help for it. The kind of voices the poster
describes do not seem to match the kind of stray thoughts that most people
have.

As an adult, unless you pose an acute danger to yourself or others (which this
fellow gives no indication of being), nobody can force you into treatment or
medication that you do not want to take. The least he should do is learn about
the condition, find out from a professional whether or not it actually applies
to him at all, and his options if it does.

While psychiatry certainly does have its shortcomings, I have not seen a lot
of good come from the Scientology anti-psychiatry approach, or trying to deal
with problems of this magnitude (potential schizophrenia) on a pure self-help
basis.

------
gojomo
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hallucination#Auditory_hallucin...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hallucination#Auditory_hallucinations)

If it's enough of a concern for you to ask about here, you should seek other
expert (medical/psychological) counsel, or at least discuss with a trusted
friend or family member, in person.

Where people have previously mentioned similar experiences to me, the
incidents were ultimately attributable to either (1) drug use (including
misprescribed stimulants); or (2) onset of mental illness. However, the
Wikipedia article also mentions a movement to manage hearing voices without
considering it a medical problem:

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hearing_Voices_Movement>

Still, since it's bothering you, I think you should talk to someone wiser than
this comment thread in person.

~~~
Tichy
The hearing voices movement is interesting. Just makes me wonder: maybe for
some hearing a voices is just a minor anomaly in their brain, similar to
people who can hear colors? What I mean is, perhaps we all have voices in our
heads, but only for some they actually become audible - because brain regions
"overlap"?

I don't think people who can hear colors are considered to be ill. If
anything, they are considered to be advantaged?

(This is the first time I think about hearing voices, I have no real knowledge
about it whatsoever).

Edit: found Wikipedia article, <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synaesthesia> \-
think I mixed it up, it is usually seeing tones as colors, not colors as
tones. But other things, too, like "numbers, days of the week and months of
the year evoke personalities"

~~~
gojomo
Similarly perspective-bending ideas (which I first learned about via _Snow
Crash_ ):

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bicameralism_(psychology)>

~~~
jdale27
Exactly what I thought of when I read Tichy's comment. _The Origin of
Consciousness in the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind_ might be total BS, but I
can't say it wasn't a fun read.

~~~
mahmud
Well, it might have been a "fun read" but this is someone's life and mental
health we're talking about.

~~~
gojomo
It might be a helpful and fun read for someone dealing with hearing voices,
too.

The diversity of comments here (as well as the referenced Wikipedia articles)
indicate the situation could require a more complex and long-term strategy
than simply "run to doctor; do what doctor says." (Even though talking with
experts is almost certainly part of the right course.) In that case,
discussing "fun reads" with relevant perspectives is part of coping.

------
gruseom
I haven't experienced what you describe, but have had different involuntary
auditory experiences for years. The key for me has been to learn not to be
bothered by them. Everyone has involuntary thought processes; I don't see why
some shouldn't be connected to the auditory parts of the brain.

It helped me to see that what was bothering me was not whatever I was
"hearing" but entirely a secondary process - thoughts _about_ what I was
hearing, like worrying or frustration. I don't know if that makes sense, but
it's a critical point and I recommend it.

Equally helpful (and intimately related) has been to develop simple somatic
awareness. A good way to grasp this is to pay attention to the space between
thoughts. That is silent, so it is a mode you can shift to when you don't want
to deal with mental chatter. Having that option provides relief. It is also
grounded in the body in a way that most thoughts are not (I'm speaking purely
experientially). Developing that awareness over time gives you greater inner
depth, which turns out to be invaluable in a lot of ways.

If the auditory stuff never settles down, maybe the space "between" thoughts
is inaccessible; in that case I switch to the silence behind them. Inner
silence is never far away, but you need to find your own way of connecting
with it.

As I said, I don't know if this will make sense. These things are hard to
articulate. I will say that sometimes they are challenges that pay off if you
learn what you need to learn.

As for whether you're going nuts, who cares? You can be a balanced, well-
grounded nutcase. This is an example of a secondary idea that pretends to be
about the underlying experience but actually isn't; it's a meta-worry.

------
anigbrowl
You have not gone nuts; that's when you give the voices greater priority than
your external sensorium. But such symptoms could (at worst) be a sign of
schizophrenia or Tourette's syndrome (particularly the profanity and
involuntary vocalization).

There is much good advice above. Have a chat with a psychiatrist - call a few
of them in your area to find out what they charge, and pick one you that
sounds busy but pleasant. Don't feel bad about trying another if you leave the
first meeting feeling unsatisfied in some way, that's not unusual. Setting
some time and money aside to visit a doctor and having their number handy can
be a good stress-reducer in and of itself. There isn't a pharmaceutical 'magic
bullet' for this, by the way. Your brain chemistry is as individual as you and
your thought processes, so whatever therapeutic approach you adopt, if any,
will require some experimentation and patience.

Meantime, don't stress too much. Learn about the voices if you can: do they
have persistent identity? do they respond to question or challenge? do they
remind you of anyone? If you set aside some quiet time and just listen to the
chatter, does anything of substance emerge? Having some experience with this,
the best analogy I can make is that it's your regular dreaming process but
with the volume turned up so that you can still hear it from the next (waking)
room. I'm sure you can think of coding analogies too. Doesn't mean you're
broken, and it's not necessarily a one-way thing either. It may just as well
tail off in its own time.

Also, another vote for _The Origin of Consciousness in the Breakdown of the
Bicameral Mind_ by Julian Jaynes; Daniel Dennett is also worth reading, and so
is Stanislaw Lem.

------
jpeterson
Many thanks to all who have responded here. I will go with the prevailing
opinion and talk to a doctor.

~~~
magv
For what it's worth, I've had a similar thing a year ago, but arguably less
intense than yours.

I was experimenting with meditation, and after a while I started hearing a
disordered stream of voices during the process. First I could barely hear
them, but I did not resist and with time the volume rose; some phrases where
as loud as screaming.

I also started hearing the chatter without meditation, usually when it was
quiet or I was calm enough. It actually was fascinating, as most of the
phrases where quite surreal. I even wrote down some of them (it's hard to
remember the actual words I was hearing, they disappear rapidly from the
memory).

Anyway, right now I don't meditate (and sleep significantly more than I was
back then); the voices are no more. I'd actually love to see some explanation,
and while I have no desire to see a doctor (I don't think it's a decease),
maybe you'll tell us what he thinks it is?

PS. Can you remember the actual phrases, and give a few examples?

~~~
gojomo
Meditation affects people differently; for a few people it is associated with
seizures or other problems. See this article for more info:

<http://www.sfweekly.com/content/printVersion/313883>

------
justlearning
@jpeterson. Can you give more insight. I have similar situations- sometimes
swear words just come out of my mouth(mostly alone..like when i am sitting on
the throne or in shower). I would like to know if there is any similarity. I
don't have any kill someone thoughts, but death of my close ones sometimes
engulf me. Sometimes, I catch myself making weird groans/grunts in the shower.
(i try to reduce this by reading while s(h)itting and sometimes reading aloud)

I have problems concentrating on anything - lately i have been trying to work
on SICP and then I read about "achievers" - who of the same age - have forged
ahead and i get depressed. small things like the ongoing world-war on rails-
django affects me - in terms of picking which one. I start a project (after
the long battle of picking which platform) and then lose the motivation in
between. (lately i thought of an idea of twitter app and then read of these
out of the world ideas/apps coming out and this literally gives me the sinking
feeling, i get sweaty and out of energy)

PS: i have been unemployed for a while. i am severely under-confident while
giving interviews.i am highly depressed - not knowing what to concentrate on
(i will do an ask-hn on this later). I think I have no programming skills.this
after sitting thru enterprisey application doing j2ee/ejbs etc that could have
been done in simpler ways. I envisioned the whole 20 member team being done by
7 members with some reflection apis...but i never mustered courage. Now when i
start something, i think why? how is it going to help the world? i see the
news - srilanka so many homeless people, darfur, faith based killings and i
think what is my to-do app going to help? I cannot explain in words the
depression - it is the niagara waterfall and not a stream that i can try to
concentrate and pinpoint.

I tried to pen my thoughts to make myself thoughts "active". but at that
instant, my mind freezes and i have nothing to write. my ever-patient wife
helps me everytime she can, but while she is at work, i am getting paranoid in
my isolated cell.

i have been thinking of doing an ask-hn on this for a while and everytime i
dread getting these apathetic one liners - go see a doctor/ get a gf/ get
laid. but i think i will post and do a reference to this one.

@jpeterson - care to share more of your thoughts/experiences and your contact
info?

~~~
qohen
(1) First of all, definitely see a doctor--depression, anxiety, and/or
whatever else you've got can and should be treated.

There are some other things worth doing as well that may help alter your
mental state for the better:

* Get exercise--the brain is part of the body and is affected by its state. Regular exercise can help clear out some of the cobwebs/gloom-and-doom, etc. Exercise connects us to the physical reality that we inhabit. The endorphins may give you a boost as well.

Additionally, if you go to a gym, you will interact with other people, which
will likely help your mood and, perhaps, can lead to more tangible things,
i.e. a job -- that's right, you can actually do social-networking away from a
computer!

* Get some sunlight.

* Eat properly.

* Sleep regularly.

* Get out of the house during the day.

If you want to work on coding, go to a Starbucks or a library or a friend with
spare office space or whathaveyou.

Just get the hell out of the house.

* Get a job--any job.

Even a temp job, if necessary--something to get you out of the house, doing
something useful and getting compensated for it. A non-technical job might
take some of the pressure off you, let you approach technical stuff in a more
relaxed way, etc. The social aspect can be useful too. If you get bored, well,
that'll give you an incentive to study-up so you can get a more interesting
job. And, it'll give you something to talk to your wife about, will bring more
money into your household, etc.

Also, you may find out about problems that need solving that can be turned
into opportunities for consulting, etc. You might even be able to build a
company based on solving such problems.

If things are really bad where you are, perhaps you can volunteer and get some
of these benefits too.

Good luck.

And, as stated the top, see a doctor.

------
dryicerx
Three possibilities depending on what the _voices_ in your head are saying

\- If they are random useless sayings: ignore them (see a doc)

\- If they are good ideas : write them down

\- If they tell you to do anything harmful: go see a doctor immediately

It's healthy to talk with your self in your head... like playing devils
advocate and viewing the same problem/idea in different perspectives... but if
it's unintentional, might be something else. Wish you best of luck.

~~~
echair
"If they are random useless sayings: ignore them"

This seems irresponsible advice. There are serious conditions whose symptoms
are hearing voices. He should at least consult a doctor.

~~~
dryicerx
Good point, fixed.

------
rms
Just to clarify with regards to everyone saying "doctor": you could see your
doctor to get a referral to a psychiatrist but make sure you are getting your
mental health care from a mental health care professional.

------
pysch_skeptic
In contrast to what these others are suggesting, I think you should be
somewhat reticent to approach a doctor about the situation.

My take on what qualifies as a mental illness is this: If something is harming
you to the extent that it is disrupting your ability to survive in society, it
might be in your best interest to classify that thing as an illness and seek
medical help.

If, on the other hand, your brain functions in a way that is toward the end of
the human bell curve but you're a functional member of society, take pride in
your unique situation and learn to deal with the areas where you're rough
around the edges. So if you hear Abe Lincoln in your head telling you you're a
swell guy every day and it doesn't affect you negatively, who cares?

A couple other things to weight before you decide to classify yourself as
having a mental illness:

As some of the other posters have mentioned, there is a stigma associated with
mental illness.

I don't know what your health insurance situation is, but if you're self-
insured in the US, having this kind of thing on your medical record can cause
you significant grief.

~~~
swombat
I would agree with you for many lighter disorders, but schizophrenia is a
pretty serious disorder that's well known to have a tendency to degenerate
from "harmless, I-can-live-with-it" to complete disaster if not cared for.

Your advice is akin to telling someone not to see a doctor about the lump on
their prostate.

~~~
gojomo
While I believe it's important the 'Ask HN' poster talk to an expert or wise
family/friends, I also think the grandparent 'pysch_skeptic' post has a fair
perspective.

Definitively treating this as the worst thing it could be -- schizophrenia or
some other issue requiring fast medical intervention -- may be unnecessarily
alarming and stigmatizing. From the diversity of comments and sources cited in
this thread, there are other explanations that require a long-term
understanding-and-management approach, that might sometimes lean on medical
experts, but don't involve simply "run to the first doctor that will see you;
do what that doctor says".

I would say the most important thing no matter what course is taken is to have
a local, in-person confidant who can monitor/discuss the situation daily for
worsening, and who can know all the other details that can't (and shouldn't!)
be shared here -- such as any other drug history (prescribed or otherwise),
family history, or work and personal matters that could shed additional light
on the situation.

------
rjurney
Are the voices you, or not?

------
mooneater
This might sound crazy. I used to hear voices as well, and I thought I was
losing my mind.

In my experience, the voices were not random chatter. They tell you where your
mind is at. Listen to them and get to know yourself. Maybe try talking to
them. You may not be "broken", your mind may just work in a slightly different
way. Respect it.

In my case the voices were paranoid. As I worked on my self-esteem, they
slowly transformed into positive voices, and then disappeared.

See a doctor if you wish, but you might end up on drugs and not learning about
yourself.

Read Jungian writers for more on this perspective (Robert A. Johnson "Inner
Work: Using Dreams and Active Imagination for Personal Growth" might be very
relevant, the voices could be seen as different aspects of you).

Of course I dont know your situation so please take this with salt.

~~~
mooneater
For the record I am against psychiatric drugs, since they appeared to play a
big role in my mothers suicide.

------
burke
Apart from the obvious "seek help" answer, try meditating. Some practice
clearing your mind might help.

~~~
michael_dorfman
I agree, but I'd nuance it a bit more.

If, upon seeking help, you find that the voices are just the everyday mental
chatter that most of us have. you should give meditation a try, as it can
definitely help with that.

------
tagnu
Hey, check this book "Power of now", the author explains this issue in detail.

------
guicifuentes
drop drugs

------
xenophanes
A lot of people hear voices. Most of them are completely healthy. You should
stay away from psychiatrists, who will not look out for your best interests
but will instead tell you that your mind is broken and you should defer to the
ideas in their minds.

Have some self-confidence and self-esteem. Don't turn your life over to people
with impressive uniforms and titles.

~~~
swombat
A lot of people hear voices that shout profanities and chatter constantly to
the point of distraction?

No, I don't think so.

------
teyc
Post a message for one of the meditators at Dharma Overground. They might have
some insights on what's going on there.

~~~
mahmud
NO!

The last thing he needs is spiritual/religious/new-agey/hippy/pseudo-science
bullshit.

Get medication: REAL doctors, trained and licensed.

