
A Driving School in France Hits a Wall of Regulations - danso
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/24/world/europe/a-driving-school-in-france-hits-a-wall-of-regulations.html
======
GuiA
Oh man, the whole driving school process in France is so dumb and painful. It
is layers of bureaucracy upon layers of bureaucracy. It is the worst in Paris,
where you are going to have to wait longer and pay more to get a license. I
have an increasing number of friends in their late 20s/early 30s who live in
large French cities and don't even have a license - they live and work in the
city, so it's not a problem for them.

When they do need to visit family in the more rural areas, they either take
the train, or use a carpooling service (the most popular one is blablacar.com,
which has been taking off like crazy in the recent years. The vast majority of
French people I talk to when I go back home have heard of it- one of the few
innovative French startups).

In France, I spent a year and half and about 1500 euros in driving lessons
related stuff and didn't get my license. When I first moved to the US
(southern state), it cost me something like 30 bucks and 30 minutes of my
time. The test consisted of driving around the block, and parking the car
(only snag: the inspector by my side, a rather overweight lady, told me that
I'd lose points the further away I parked from the DMV's front door. I thought
she was joking, but she wasn't).

The conservative French people say that more expensive, stricter, longer times
for obtaining a driver license leads to safer roads; but if you compare US
driving fatalities to French ones, there's not much of a difference- and
people in the US drive way more than they do in France.

Like many other aspects of French culture, it's ridiculous how deeply
legislated it is, and how the only ones benefitting from it are the ones
making the rules. I find certain aspects of the US driving culture a little
too much on the other extreme of the spectrum (learner's permit at 14? the
driving test being just a drive around the block? the written test being a
multiple choice questionnaire with the answers available on YouTube?), but
France is worse by far, and it's hurting young professionals (my brother is
without a college degree, and when he was unemployed he found that most jobs
in rural areas require a car- but getting a license takes forever and is
expensive. So that was a few months where he could do little but wait to get
his driving license).

~~~
hk__2
> it cost me something like 30 bucks and 30 minutes of my time

It cost you 30 bucks and 30 minutes of your time to _pass_ the exam, not to
_learn_ how to drive. That’s what is costly in France, because it costs
~€50/hour to have someone teaching you how to drive. People usually take at
least 20 hours to learn, which is 20x50 = €1000. If you already know how to
drive you can bypass the whole process and pass the exam as a “candidat
libre”, which is _free_ [1] (but it’s hard to get a slot).

[1]: [http://vosdroits.service-
public.fr/particuliers/F2825.xhtml](http://vosdroits.service-
public.fr/particuliers/F2825.xhtml) (in French)

~~~
Natsu
Where I learned in the US, we had a few weeks of driver's ed classes in HS,
then practiced with an instructor for a bit. After that, getting a permit then
a license was simple enough. At this point, I don't get anything more than
vision tests and I don't actually have to renew my license until I'm 60 or
something.

------
jokoon
As a 29, unemployed, native french man, this shows perfectly how france has
many examples of over-regulations. I'm currently doing driving lessons, the
unemployment institution, pole emploi paid for 90% of the cost. It cost
something like 30 or 50 euros per hour. It's crazy when you think how
important transportation is in a developed country.

I'm usually for socialism in general, but not if it completely hinders the
economy and reduce opportunity, and sets in monopolies.

The government recently did a study, and it showed that small but important
local businesses like pharmacists, bakeries, notaires (civil law notaries),
tobacco sellers, alcohol resellers, kiosks, doctors, and many more, are
heavily regulated, and tend to be monopolies because the government don't
deliver that many licenses.

It's weird because I tend to have leftish beliefs when it comes to politics,
but you can't deny that you need to relax the rules if you don't want to have
those kinds of situations.

I never worked more than 2 months in total in my life, I just wish I could
just pick a shovel and do any kind of demeaning work for a change, just for
the sanity of waking up in the morning to do something. It's just not possible
because of labor laws and a high minimum wage. France is anti-liberal in many
aspects, and it's not just sad, it's just depressing. I just can't like my
country. I like many things, but in terms of economic opportunities, it's
soviet-like. People just receive welfare, stay unemployed, get unmotivated,
and this settles in, and there's nothing concrete you can really do for a
change if you don't have a network.

At least in the US, there are shitty jobs by default. In france, the only one
negociating are the unions. Companies can't even fire people unless they did
real damage to the company. Nobody gets hired because of that.

Sometimes I honestly believe I could try to just become an illegal immigrant
and go to places where they give work to strangers, but it's hard to give up
comfort.

It's a life of being rewarded for being lazy. It's weird.

~~~
throwaway000002
You're young, clearly you don't like the status quo, what's keeping you there?
I find it hard to feel sympathy, but I don't know whatever situation you may
be in. Don't let the structural problems of your country hinder you, be part
of the change.

~~~
jokoon
> what's keeping you there?

Zero work experience. You can't really change country without finding a job
first in another country, or at least having a plan. I would gladly work any
job to become an US citizen or canadian citizen. Sweden, Norway, Finland, any
cold country.

I don't know how to search for a permanent job abroad. I don't want to just do
tourism and work abroad for one year. There always seems to be tons of
discouraging paperwork. Canada requires you to have 2000 euros or more if you
want to go there. With 9/11 the US will be a difficult place to go as I don't
have any job experience.

> I find it hard to feel sympathy

I don't care about your sympathy, I'm not asking for it. Nobody has sympathy
anyway. What do you mean by that anyway ?

> be part of the change

What does that even mean ? I don't care about change, I just want to get out
in the morning, do anything that can be done, and go back home.

Like I always say, where can I pick a shovel and start working ? Job
applications are stupid too, there are always requirements, and nothing about
the real supply and demand of the job market for that kind of job.

~~~
throwaway000002
Hey jokoon, you're clearly in a rut, and it's clouding your thinking and
decision making. Your attitude needs to shift from where it is because,
presently, it's so negative that it amounts to self-sabotage. I would suggest
seeking some help, any help. It'll be lousy, and you'll have to wade through a
different morass of bureaucracy, and unhelpful people, but eventually I
strongly feel you'll be able to shift yourself from where you are.

Things don't magically get better in other countries. Each has it's own set of
crap that people there have to deal with. But you know this.

Bonne chance.

------
TheMagicHorsey
No wonder I meet so many French programmers in Silicon Valley.

They always seem to pine for France, but they still stay in California. Its
also really weird how fond and romantically they look upon such regulations.
You'd think that they would be furious at the thought of such regulations in
America, but they are actually pretty sympathetic about them. Even though such
regulations have tied up the job market in France so much that they have been
driven to a new continent, they still have faith in the State to fix things
with rules.

That is one of the reasons I think libertarians can never win in the long run.
Even very smart engineers have boundless optimism for the capacity of human
managers to micromanage complicated systems like entire national economies.
They also have boundless faith that bad actors and inside players can be
prevented from manipulating regulations for their own benefit.

~~~
Daishiman
Libertarians can't win for the simple reason that free markets tend towards
oligopolies without a system to break them up and because "free markets"
suspiciously never account for externalities.

~~~
Houshalter
Libertarianism is a sliding scale. Many libertarians are ok with some
government regulation and things like anti-monopoly laws. Others believe they
aren't necessary and that most monopolies are created _because_ government
regulation rather than in spite of it.

~~~
Daishiman
I have never, heard any libertarian publication in the internet advocate for
anti-monopoly laws. And the second position is fantasy, because every single
economic theory (including those by Von Mises, Friedman and other "heroes" of
libertarians) can describe the existence of natural monopolies quite well.

Doesn't take a genius to know that these extremist positions are the result of
ignorance in the way money and power flow through society. Unfortunately, it's
the sort of ignorance that reaches into the "not even wrong" territory.

~~~
Houshalter
There's no need to advocate for anti-monopoly laws because they already exist.
They just don't spend time advocating against them.

Natural monopolies are a different issue (anti-trust laws can't affect a true
natural monopoly because it's by definition impossible to break up.) Some
libertarians dispute that they are an issue at all, more on that position
here: [https://mises.org/daily/5266/](https://mises.org/daily/5266/) Others
believe the government should handle things like public utilities, just
nothing else.

Accusing others of ignorance is never helpful.

------
joshuaheard
Here is my French driver's license horror story. I was an American expat
living in Paris for 2 years. Fortunately, I had a Texas driver's license which
is apparently one of a few states with reciprocal privileges, so all I had to
do was exchange my Texas license for a French one, no class, no test. However,
it took me 5 trips down to the French DMV, each time taking a number and
waiting an hour. Each time, the clerk would find something else wrong with my
application, even though my company had a French attorney assisting me, and I
usually had a note from the previous clerk saying all I needed was one thing.
Finally, all I needed was a copy of my Texas driving history. Texas does not
provide a certified copy since you are able to download a copy from the
website. Of course, France did not accept this. So, I wrote Texas DMV and
asked them to mail me a certified copy. They sent me basically the same
download. France did not accept it, but said the cover letter was
certification enough, if I had it translated. Taking a number and an hour
later at the US embassy, I had my translated document, which France finally
accepted and issued my a license in exchange for my Texas license.

Then, 2 weeks later, I get a letter from the French DMV. They were not going
to accept the letter and said I needed to come down and turn in the license
they had issued me and bring in a properly certified driving record from
Texas.

I gave up. I did not comply with this letter and kept the French driver's
license. Fortunately, I was never pulled over and did not have any problems.
When I left the country, I went back to exchange my French driver's license
for my Texas one. I got a nasty scolding from the clerk, but I just played the
dumb American and she eventually gave me my Texas license back.

I have to say, the absurd bureaucracy in France was not limited to the DMV,
and I have more horror stories about the government regulations and
bureaucracy there.

------
gniv
It reminded me of this[1] recent Tyler Cowen article that is basically arguing
that France and other European countries will have long-term negative growth,
mostly because they are over-regulated and hence cannot adapt to changes.

[1] [http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/24/upshot/lesson-from-old-
ind...](http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/24/upshot/lesson-from-old-india-when-
an-economy-just-doesnt-get-better.html)

~~~
Daishiman
I honestly fail to see why this is a problem.

Growth for growth's sake is an irrational obsession. If people's standards of
living are satisfactory, technology leads to reduced consumption without
compromising standard of living, and individuals lead a good life, what more
is there to it?

~~~
zem
they still haven't discarded the requirement that everyone needs a job to have
an acceptable standard of living, so lack of growth leading to unemployment is
definitely a problem

------
hartator
Disclaimer: I am from France and now, I am living in the U.S. since 2 years.

This article rings true. Driving in the U.S. is 100 times easier than back in
France. The driving test is easy, if there is one! (I lived in Austin, Texas
doesn't have anything OR at least doesn't have almost anything that looks like
a driving test from a french perpective.)

I've spent something like 3,400 Euros to get my permit back in France, and
I've waited maybe 9 months. It's true they are not giving away easily spots
for the tests and it's also true that they try to get you doing as much as
hours as possible.

~~~
techsupporter
Texas most certainly has a driving test (I know, I took it when I was 16 years
old). If you gave the Department of Public Safety a France-issued license,
Texas deemed you to already know how to drive so it did not require you to
take the state test:

"Individuals who hold a valid, unexpired driver license from another U.S.
state or U.S. territory, or from Canada, _France_ , South Korea, Germany or
Taiwan (the countries Texas has license reciprocity agreements with), do not
have to take the knowledge or driving tests."

[http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/DriverLicense/movingtotexas.htm](http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/DriverLicense/movingtotexas.htm)

~~~
hartator
Paying $50 for 20 minutes of test where they check ur abilities to put an
automatic on D is not a test.

~~~
techsupporter
I don't mean to turn this into an argument over the quality of Texas' driving
test, just point out that I, too, hold a Texas license and it is my first
license. The driving test consisted of approximately two hours of driving near
my local DPS office. I had to go through different types of intersections,
parallel park, merge onto the freeway, make legal U-turns, signal
appropriately (which is to say, all of the time, and is a skill that
apparently didn't stick with most of my fellow drivers), stop at the
appropriate spot, and so on.

My original point was that if you gave the DPS clerk a French license, you
didn't have to do any of that because Texas considers it a license transfer.

------
TeMPOraL
Less new drivers a year, selection of the best, many hours of practice, no
easy passing, hell, this sounds like a dream!

They have half the rate of traffic accident as US or my country (Poland), so
here's one obvious gain. I'm curious about the public and private transport
infrastructure there - there seems to be an economic incentive to develop it.

I see the obvious injustices described in the article, but overall, this time
it seems to have a positive effect. What the world needs is definitely not
easier ways for people to get driving licenses.

~~~
aikah
> I'm curious about the public and private transport infrastructure

If you live near Paris(or a big city), you dont need a car.

If you live anywhere else you absolutely need a car! (or a motorbike, scooter
... ).

The infrastructure is good,but the train is extremly expensive today,(wasnt
the case 10 years ago) and railways are crumbling.

Up unti recently you couldnt cross regions by bus in France,it was forbidden
to preserve the train monopoly.Today people use ridesharing a lot,because
taking the train is such a ripoff.

~~~
hk__2
Yeah, in most situations planes are cheaper than trains in France (e.g. Paris-
Biarritz is 5h20 by train for €110 while it’s 1h30 by plane for €70).

~~~
VeejayRampay
It's cheaper sure, but you're not in the center of town, you have to get at
the airport way sooner so you don't really save that much time in the end.

~~~
hk__2
Yes, but you save money.

------
revelation
I don't exactly see the wall of regulation. In France, as in Germany, you have
to learn driving through an instructor, you can not do it in your parents car
as it most likely lacks the necessary emergency controls for an actual
licensed driver. Hence the cost, mostly paying for 20+ hrs of an instructors
time.

There is only a limited amount of exam slots, and they are assigned based on
previous pass rates, ensuring you don't waste it on unprepared students. That
seems like a perfectly sane policy when there's only a low fixed amount of
exam slots. In Germany, you pay a fee (to the government) for the exam, so its
possible to add more tester.

~~~
macspoofing
>There is only a limited amount of exam slots

Why?

~~~
superuser2
Fixed amount of money and therefore instructor labor.

------
nraynaud
I don't want to throw away all regulations. If France has a good cheap
internet and reasonable prices (compared to the US) and contracts terms for
communications, it's thanks to heavy regulations. There are heavy regulations
in consumer protections that I really miss in the US, where you never know
what something will cost (taxes and tips are never on the sticker price), the
contracts can be and routinely are leonine, and everybody is trying to rip you
off all the time.

~~~
te_chris
The exclusion of taxes on prices in the US is so infuriating and backwards.
Having to manually calculate every price when you're in a store is just a
pointless waste of effort. If you have to pay the tax it's part of the price
so just regulate that that is the sticker price.

------
tomjen3
This is great news actually, hopefully with the economy in France becoming
worse and worse they will finally be forced to change - it was possible to
bail out Greece and to some extend Spain, but there is no way, shape or form
where we actually bail out France, not even partially.

Deregulation and freeing the economy worked for Germany (they used to be
considered the sick man of Europe) there is no reason it couldn't work for
France.

~~~
sfk
Germany is really a special case: Around 1990 the first world western part
merged with the second world eastern part, while giving all citizens of the
eastern part around 2/3rd (I think, correct me if I'm wrong) of the western
level of social benefits.

It's a little like if the U.S. would merge with Mexico and give all Mexicans
huge social benefits.

So I would be careful with an analysis why the economy has improved exactly.
After all the regulated economy had worked fine in the West until 1990.

