
Intel is changing the future of power supplies with its ATX12VO spec - wyldfire
https://www.pcworld.com/article/3518831/how-intels-changing-the-future-of-power-supplies-with-its-atx12vo-spec.html
======
DiabloD3
Four important things to consider:

First, this already happened to some extent. Outside of drives and fans, the
virtually all of the power used in your system is exclusively 12v; either from
the 12v pins on your ATX24 or P4 or EPS12 connectors, or via the PCI-E
connectors; very little non-drive or non-fan power is supplied via 3.3 or 5v
rails.

Second, almost all PSUs today use 12v DC to 3.3/5v DC converters to increase
efficiency given how little 3.3v and 5v is required. The PSU itself is often
designed internally as a high efficiency multi-module single rail 12v-only
design.

Third, Intel is not in a position to dictate anything. Intel has tried to
float many changes in the standards (such as the WTX board standard (with
matching incompatible mobo plug), and the BTX board standard (using ATX
plugs)), and all failed. The only thing that stuck was using 4 and 8 pin PC
Minifit Jr plugs (the same ones ATX, PCI-E and countless other plugs come
from); and, annoyingly, somehow not compatible with PCI-E's pinout.

Fourth, Intel is also not the dominant player in the field now, AMD is. They
failed to get major changes through as the dominant player, what makes them
think anyone cares to hear what they have to say today? It is unlikely AMD
will ever ship machines that don't ship with normal ATX unless they just
jettison the ATX24 altogether.

Side note: 12v capacity: ATX24 144w, P4 192w, EPS12 336w, PCI-E 6 75w, PCI-E 8
150w, and the PCI-E slot itself 75w.

A modern desktop could theoretically be ran off a dual EPS12 and a PCI-E 8+8
for the GPU; modern mobo designs run the CPU and RAM VRMs off the EPS12
entirely, modern GPU designs run the GPU VRMs off of PCI-E plugs and the VRAM
VRMs off the PCI-E slot power, very little power of any voltage is supplied to
the system via ATX24.

Another side note: Any board that has a legitimately clean 5v rail for USB is
_not_ feeding it off the PSU directly. Any board that has absolutely garbage
USB power probably committed this sin.

~~~
chrisseaton
> Fourth, Intel is also not the dominant player in the field now, AMD is.

This is delusional - AMD’s market share is like 15%.

~~~
roblabla
I agree it's delusional, but to give some hard data, Mercury Research
published its quarterly findings on x86 market share as of Q4 2019[0].
Specifically:

\- On the server side, AMD market share is only 4.5% (up by 1.4 percentage
point from last year)

\- For desktop, market share is 18.3%, up by 2.4 pp from last year.

\- For laptop, market share is 16.2%, up by 4.0 pp from last year.

\- For overall x86 chips, market share is 15.5%, up by 3.2 pp from last year.

So it's pretty clear that AMD isn't quite leading the market, although there
is an overall upward trend in market share, and the rate at which AMD is
gaining market share seems to be on the rise. Maybe in 4-5 years, AMD will be
the dominant player. But it's still too early to call them this.

[0]: [https://www.techpowerup.com/263612/amd-desktop-processor-
mar...](https://www.techpowerup.com/263612/amd-desktop-processor-market-share-
now-at-18-3-mercury-research)

~~~
maallooc
> Maybe in 4-5 years, AMD will be the dominant player. But it's still too
> early to call them this.

Highly unlikely. This is AMD's prime time because Intel screwed up, and
they've peaked at 15%. I predict Intel to gain the pace in a few years and
dominate the market once again.

~~~
milsorgen
Perhaps but I'm not so sure we may see things play out in AMD's favor since
they are fabless but Intel remains shackled to ever more costly and difficult
fabrication. Either way they did hire Jim Keller and I am excited to see what
he can do with their resources and technology.

~~~
maallooc
I disagree. Intel’s capacity needs are huge, to the point where the benefits
of outsourcing just can’t happen. Also, it’s not a good idea to rely on
others, because they can screw up. Remember 28nm and the graphics fiasco?

Sure, the costs will be high and there will be some risks of an in-house fabs
but it’s Intel. They’re better off with it.

~~~
theandrewbailey
> Also, it’s not a good idea to rely on others, because they can screw up.
> Remember 28nm and the graphics fiasco?

How long has Intel had 10nm on it's roadmap? I think their earliest roadmaps
said it should have happened 5 years ago.

~~~
maallooc
[https://en.wikichip.org/w/images/thumb/5/5c/7nm_densities.sv...](https://en.wikichip.org/w/images/thumb/5/5c/7nm_densities.svg/1050px-7nm_densities.svg.png)

Because their 10nm is denser than tsmc's so called _7nm_?

~~~
roblabla
TSMC has a new process called N7P EUV that has a higher density than Intel's
10nm process[0], in production since last year. They also are on track to have
their N5 process in production next year, which is supposed to have an even
higher density[1]. Obviously, N5 isn't in prod yet so this is just a roadmap,
maybe they'll hit roadblocks like intel here.

But still, it's disingenuous to claim that Intel is trying something that
wasn't achieved by TSMC already. TSMC has already beaten Intel on transistor
density fair and square.

[0]:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7_nm_process#7_nm_process_node...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7_nm_process#7_nm_process_nodes_and_process_offerings)

[1]:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5_nm_process#5_nm_process_node...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5_nm_process#5_nm_process_nodes)

~~~
maallooc
N7+ EUV is 1.2x denser but also it's yield is horrible according to sources.
[https://wccftech.com/tsmc-7nm-euv-yield-
alleged/](https://wccftech.com/tsmc-7nm-euv-yield-alleged/)

And you can't compare tsmc vs Intel directly because their target chip size is
different. Intel produces chips size of avg. 180mm² while tsmc and others aim
for under 80mm². Even the industry leader producing small chips are suffering
in yield for ranges of 113MTr/mm². Intel producing huge chips with
100.76MTr/mm² density even without EUV means they are going through the right
way.

With those knoledges on non-EUV nodes I expect Intel to be on par (which it
already is) or be superior than others in about 1-2 years.
[https://en.wikichip.org/wiki/File:5nm_densities.svg](https://en.wikichip.org/wiki/File:5nm_densities.svg)

People having insight to this industry doesn't think Intel has ever been left
behind in this race towards density. Fanboys and regular people influenced by
the media does.

------
PaulDavisThe1st
I love computers with 12VDC native power jacks. Why? My solar-powered van
(interior only, the engine is still diesel) is 12VDC everywhere, and that's
good clean battery DC, not some noisy-ass AC/DC conversion.

I love it so much that 2 of the last 3 computers I built (on an ATX form
factor) were 12VDC native. I have external AC/DC power supplies for them, but
when travelling/living in a solar-powered environment, I get to just plug them
straight into the clean juice.

Sadly, monitors used to be this way too - they came with external power bricks
and were 12VDC native. But sometime in the mid-2000's, something changed. My
guess is that someone figured out how to shrink the necessary converters to a
size that made it more "sensible" to put them inside the monitor. Result:
almost impossible now to find a monitor you connect to a 12VDC supply. The one
I have in the van took me months to find on ebay back in 2015. The only
exception are "TV" monitors specifically made for RVs, which is great and all,
except that most of them are crap compared to a modern monitor.

One small problem with plugging 12VDC native computers into a solar system:
it's not atypical for the solar charge controller to drive the charge voltage
over 14V, at which point most internal "PSUs" designed for 12V will shutdown.
You need a voltage regulator between you and the battery-terminal voltage.

~~~
mcv
I was recently wondering if 12VDC shouldn't become the new current standard
for inside homes. Everything is still 230VAC (in the EU at least, I think the
US uses 110V?), which is way too much for a lot of household appliances. The
only reason modern LED bulbs are hot and expensive is that they need to
convert down to 12V from 230V. It's mostly washing machines and kitchen
appliances that need that much (and some of those even need 380V).

Almost everything in the home needs adapters and power bricks to convert it to
something sensible, which usually is 12VDC. So why not just make that the
standard?

~~~
ppf
> So why not just make that the standard?

Power loss in cables at low voltage / high amps.

------
russdill
In one sense this feels like pushing the efficiency problem under the rug.
There's a requirement for _power supplies_ to meet a certain efficiency
standard, and generating 3.3v and 5v rails are pushing that number down.
Solution? Move that task to the motherboard where they won't count against the
power supply efficiency requirement.

Of course, from a purely engineering perspective, it really does make sense
and it's overdue.

~~~
simias
The motherboard "knows more" than the PSU though, it should be able to better
deal with these idle power situations by shutting down things that aren't used
anymore and powering them back up when needed. An external PSU would have
tighter constraints regarding power availability and wouldn't be able to
optimize the power profile quite as aggressively since they don't really know
exactly what they're driving.

~~~
russdill
Many DC-DC supplies have auto-standby/idle modes that take care of this
problem in an automatic way.

------
Animats
Makes sense. Should have happened long ago. All those old voltages date from
when +5 from the power supply was used directly by the logic. Facebook's Open
Compute rack delivers only +12 to the boards and drives, and that's from 2011.
There's a power supply in the base of the rack that takes in three-phase AC or
48 VDC or whatever and puts out +12VDC. All other conversion is on the board.
This is just catching up desktops to where the data center went years ago.

~~~
laurencerowe
I believe the Open Compute designs moved to 48 VDC for efficiency.

~~~
Animats
Ah, they did.[1] The power busbars are in the same place, so you can't have
both 12V and 48V in the same rack. The connectors are intentionally
incompatible so you can't plug into the wrong voltage.

[1]
[http://files.opencompute.org/oc/public.php?service=files&t=8...](http://files.opencompute.org/oc/public.php?service=files&t=827d028fc82b4b55315a4d7815b43c78)

------
yellowapple
> PSU vendors don’t want to release ATX12VO products for DIY builders until
> there are motherboards that support ATX12VO. Motherboard vendors don’t want
> to create products until power supply makers support them.

Seems like that could be addressed with one of two adapters:

\- A passive adapter cable with a female ATX connector (with the 3.3V and 5V
pins disconnected) and male ATX12VO connector

\- An active adapter cable/board with a female ATX12VO connector, the
necessary circuits to step voltages down to 3.3V and 5V, and a male ATX
connector.

One or both of these could happen today and immediately solve that chicken-
and-egg problem for the custom market, no?

~~~
o_x
This is already somewhat happening, but it's very niche:

[https://j-hackcompany.com/?product=j-hack-m2427-for-
corsair-...](https://j-hackcompany.com/?product=j-hack-m2427-for-corsair-sf-
series)

[https://smallformfactor.net/forum/threads/m2427-cable-
manage...](https://smallformfactor.net/forum/threads/m2427-cable-management-
freedom.10349/)

------
vifya
It was bound to happen eventually, there has been a long trend towards point-
of-use regulation displacing multiple output supplies. I'm just surprised they
went with 12V, and not 19V which has lower rectification losses, less power
loss to wire/trace resistance, and a large existing design ecosystem from
laptops where 19V has been the norm for years.

~~~
numpad0
Why is it 19V for laptops? I had suspected it’s to compensate for voltage drop
at linear regulators. Batteries are either 11.1(3.7v 4 cells) or 14.8(3.7v 3
cells 1-3 parallel) and these voltages doesn’t seem immediately consistent
with ATX12V to me.

~~~
thehobgoblin
The nominal voltage of a battery isn't the maximum voltage, 3.7V lithium cells
are typically charged to around 4.2V.

A 4S battery (or equivalent) will have a nominal voltage of 14.8V and a
maximum voltage of 16.8V, which leaves 2.2V extra, probably to account for
losses.

Why 19V ended up being the typical voltage rather than rounding it up to
something like 20V or 24V is beyond me (probably a matter of compliance, try
checking IEC 60950-1 or related standards).

~~~
cesarb
I have seen many laptops where the charger sticker says the output voltage is
19.5V. And the nearest USB-C standard voltage is 20V, so that's probably what
most newer laptops which charge through a USB-C socket use.

------
mmastrac
12V makes so much more sense to be sending around - the losses at lower
voltages are rough. It would be nice to replace legacy molex connectors with a
more modern standard, however.

~~~
kbumsik
> It would be nice to replace legacy molex connectors with a more modern
> standard

Any example of the modern one? I personally have no issues with the current
one. I am not sure if those molex connectors should be called as legacy.

~~~
Marsymars
The SATA power connector is the obvious successor. Most random doodads (e.g.
internal fan controllers) have moved from using molex connectors in the past
to SATA power connectors now.

~~~
yellowapple
> Most random doodads (e.g. internal fan controllers) have moved from using
> molex connectors in the past to SATA power connectors now.

They have? I've literally never seen this in the wild.

~~~
Marsymars
I've had this fan controller in my desktop for probably five years now:
[https://www.thermaltake.com/commander-fp-10-port-hub-for-
pwm...](https://www.thermaltake.com/commander-fp-10-port-hub-for-pwm-
fans.html)

~~~
yellowapple
Huh. That's pretty cool. I've only seen (and used) the Molex to whatever-that-
connector's-called adapters, which is indeed what I used in my Threadripper
build about a year ago.

------
Melkman
I wonder how easy this would make server local UPS systems. A battery with a
single buck/boost converter should be enough as a power supply. Just need to
add a mains fed charge circuit.

~~~
mmastrac
Probably would allow _very_ cheap power supplies w/built-in UPSes. 12V±5%
voltage is the allowed range.

~~~
michaelt
Most desktop users would probably prefer a UPS that also ensured their monitor
stayed on.

~~~
loeg
I actually leave my monitor off UPS intentionally. While I'm away, I'd rather
my workstation survive a brownout or short loss of power and if I'm actively
working, it's easy enough to move the monitor's power cable to the UPS to save
my work and shut down. My CPU draws ~45W at idle; my monitor draws a whopping
130W — having it on battery materially shortens the off-AC runtime.

~~~
Marsymars
Your monitor shouldn't draw 130W at idle. My 34" monitor is ~3W in sleep mode,
34W when on. Even my eight year old 55" TV only draws 90W when on.

~~~
loeg
It's a 10 year old TFT: [https://support.hp.com/us-
en/document/c02159509](https://support.hp.com/us-en/document/c02159509)

"Typical power consumption: 130 W."

~~~
ComputerGuru
Right, but doesn’t it suspend when you’re away? DPMS should be at least an
order of magnitude less, if not two.

~~~
loeg
Nope. I turn it off when I'll be away for a long time. But not if I'm just
grabbing food or doing some housework or whatever.

------
raverbashing
It's an interesting development. Things like -12V made sense on the 80s
(sigh), while high-powered 3.3v/5v needs made sense on the 90s (it still makes
some sense today, for example for USB)

Though one thing they might have considered but maybe rejected was going for a
higher voltage single rail power supply (something like 24v)

Your board might still need those voltages but will have to DC-DC convert it
themselves (as opposed to a multi-tap transformer as the article was implying)

~~~
throwaway2048
pretty much all modern boards use DC/DC power stages from 12v, even for 5v and
3.3v stuff.

~~~
baybal2
Indeed, found that for myself when got into mobo design.

ATX 5V is really unsuitable for USB power, and can play tricks on you.

Similarly, 3.3V from PSU is useless at powering 3.3V logic.

You have to do power staging on board to guarantee that PCI and i2c stuff
turns on after the bridge/soc.

Some PSUs don't follow reset timings, or don't do them at all on standby rail.

So if you do ATX power by the book, you may end up with improperly inited
board, and 3.3V ICs booting up before the CPU.

So, yes, most of ATX power supply functionality is already duplicated by most
mobos

~~~
garaetjjte
>ATX 5V is really unsuitable for USB power, and can play tricks on you.

Why? I don't think current motherboard duplicate 5V converter.

>you may end up with improperly inited board, and 3.3V ICs booting up before
the CPU.

Why it cannot just hold reset line for these chips high until CPU started?

~~~
Gibbon1
A lot of peripheral IC's don't have reset lines. Sometimes this is a big big
problem. You can end up with failure to come up maybe 1 in 10,000. Exactly the
sort of thing that shows up late in development or worse in the field.

Tip: If anyone tells you power supply and reset sequencing is 'easy' ignore
them.

------
superkuh
This makes sense for specific use case computers, specialty ones, etc. So
it'll be adopted. And because of economies of scale it'll push into actual
desktop computers and their mobos. Having to dissipate all that heat on/in the
mobo will be terrible for actual desktop computers. But it'll happen anyway
because it's better for corporations and the desktop market doesn't drive
their decisions.

~~~
jleahy
A typical CPU (or SSD even) uses a voltage of 0.9V currently, surely it
doesn't matter whether the motherboard is converting 12V to 0.9V or 5V to
0.9V.

Back when this stuff was originally designed 12V, 5V and 3.3V was all you
needed (actually with the AT standard it was just 12V for motors and 5V for
logic, that was pre-CMOS). Now every component requires a different voltage
(if there's any standard it might be 1.8V or 1.2V), and to get several
hundreds watts of power at 0.9V would require cables about an inch thick.

12V is the defacto standard for powering pretty much anything these days.
Converting 12V into whatever you want is utterly trivial and incredibly
efficient.

~~~
michaelt
Maybe for a lot of things, but I've seen plenty of SSDs that only need 5v
power, and I've never seen one that only needed 12v.

~~~
btian
You mean 3.3V (since M.2 is 3.3V only)?

It's trivial to convert 12V to 3.3V tbh

~~~
michaelt
No, I mean if you look at 2.5" SSDs with datasheets specifying the operating
voltages, they will commonly specify 5 volts.

Intel SSD 530? "5.0V SATA Supply Rail" [1]

Seagate 600 SSD? "+5V Max" [2]

Toshiba SG5? "Supply Voltage 5.0 V ±5%" [3]

Swissbit X-60? "5V± 10% (3.3 V available upon request)" [4]

Apacer SV250-25? "5.0V ±10%" [5]

So the statement that "12V is the defacto standard for powering pretty much
anything these days" isn't accurate in the case of 2.5" SSDs. I acknowledge
desktop computers often supply 12v to the motherboard and graphics card, of
course!

(Some 2.5 inch SSDs, like the Micron 5100 Series use both 5v and 12v [6] - and
I agree that M.2 is 3.3v only)

[1]
[https://www.intel.com/content/dam/www/public/us/en/documents...](https://www.intel.com/content/dam/www/public/us/en/documents/product-
specifications/ssd-530-sata-specification.pdf) [2]
[https://www.seagate.com/files/www-content/product-
content/ss...](https://www.seagate.com/files/www-content/product-content/ssd-
fam/600-ssd/en-us/docs/600-ssd-data-sheet-ds1780-3-1305us.pdf) [3]
[https://toshiba.semicon-storage.com/content/dam/toshiba-
ss/a...](https://toshiba.semicon-storage.com/content/dam/toshiba-ss/asia-
pacific/docs/product/storage/product-manual/SSD-SG5-Series-Brochure-
Revision1.0.pdf) [4]
[https://www.mouser.co.uk/datasheet/2/615/X-60_fact_sheet-163...](https://www.mouser.co.uk/datasheet/2/615/X-60_fact_sheet-1633266.pdf)
[5]
[https://www.mouser.co.uk/datasheet/2/24/SV250-25_AE2.255XXC....](https://www.mouser.co.uk/datasheet/2/24/SV250-25_AE2.255XXC.XXX04_Spec_rev1.1-1602155.pdf)
[6]
[http://www.mouser.com/datasheet/2/671/5100_ssd-1283974.pdf](http://www.mouser.com/datasheet/2/671/5100_ssd-1283974.pdf)

------
jaclaz
Only as anecdata, in my practical experience over the years, I needed to
change many power supplies[1], and very few motherboards. (excluding
replacements due to upgrades)

I would go a little bit further and say that the PSU is probably the most
replaced "standard" part of a PC, followed by hard disks.

I also a couple times repaired a PSU replacing this or that failed component,
but it is simply not worth the time and money, as spare new PSU's are cheap
enough, the replacing is very easy whilst even procuring a single chip or
capacitor is complex for non-professionals, besides the soldering tools, etc.

Hopefully the parts that age or however tend to fail will remain in the
(easily replaceable) PSU, otherwise we will see an increase in replaced
motherboards.

Some sort of (standard) "daughterboard" with the voltage regulating components
would have made more sense (to me), but surely it makes less sense from an
industrial manudacturing point of view.

[1] be it due to capacitors, power transistors or mosfets or _whatever_ , and
due to _whatever_ reasons, be it aging, power surges, etc.

~~~
unlinked_dll
Are you buying bottom of the barrel PSUs? I've had the same Corsair unit in
three machines over the last decade. Works perfectly fine.

~~~
jaclaz
>Are you buying bottom of the barrel PSUs?

If you mean that "standard" OEM PSU's (think Asus, Fujitsu, IBM/Lenovo and a
few - mini-ITX Shuttle cases) are "bottom of the barrel", yes.

Then, since often an used, original, non-standard (say) IBM/Lenovo PSU can be
found for a mere 100-150 € on e-bay, I started getting el-cheapo (though not
el-cheap _est_ ) ones with no appreciable decrease (or increase) in
durability, putting them externally and re-mapping the cables.

For the mini-ITX cases (that use a not-very-common form factor) I gutted new
1U server PSU's and managed to fit them in.

The PC I am writing this with (ASUS) is 2008 and I replaced a PSU in 2012 and
one in 2016 or 2017, cannot remember.

Out of the four IBM/Lenovo's I have at another office, dated 2010 or 2011, two
have still their original PSU, two have the external adapted ATX, no other
parts replaced.

All in all (and for _whatever_ reasons) I would estimate that over a 5-10
years lifetime of a system[1] there are:

1-2 replacement of PSU's

1 replacement of hard disk(s)

No replacement of other parts, let alone the motherboard.

Sice 2012 I am at the third Fujitsu ThinClient (used as router) with PSU
failing (in this case they are so cheap second hand that I change the whole
little machine).

[1] the mini-ITX's (there were three of them) before being decommissioned)
lasted 2003-2018, i.e. 15 years, running NT 4.0 or 2K 24/7 each with 2 PSU
replacements, the last one, being a server grade PSU most probably would be
just fine for another five or more years.

~~~
murillians
That is an insane rate to be going through PSU's. Many of the enthusiast PSU's
myself and friends have put into our computers usually outlive the other
components. Generic grey box PSU's off ebay usually dont have the same
standards as a SeaSonic or Thermaltake unit

------
ChuckMcM
I remember the days when Microsoft and Intel would host the "PCxx" spec (where
xx was the last two digits of the year) and tell everyone what all the
standards for desktop machines were going to be for the next few years. Those
days are gone though.

12V rail PSUs are nice for a number of reasons but I always liked that you
could feed your DC input from the AC side or a battery and have a "free" UPS
at the same time. It is a bit tricky with a switching supply since you don't
want to have the battery seeing 25Khz power outages as the switcher turns on
and off but its very doable. With a little bit of instrumentation you could
have the PC itself control charging and monitoring the battery itself so only
a minimal amount of hardware needed to give every motherboard its own UPS.

~~~
effie
I am very much interested in this, using DC power sources is the future. How
do I go around adding a 12V DC power supply to the ordinary ATX computer? Can
you find some links for this?

~~~
ChuckMcM
Such supplies exist for some levels of power. Very popular in the MiniITX
community where power levels are < 300W.[1]. There is also a wealth of
material on developing DC to DC converters and a number of modules for the
same.

For a non-engineer putting something together I would look at DC-DC converter
modules (see [https://www.digikey.com/products/en/power-supplies-board-
mou...](https://www.digikey.com/products/en/power-supplies-board-mount/dc-dc-
converters/922?k=dc%20to%20dc%20converter)) that provided the necessary power
rails, at the power level that was required.

Such a solution would not be compact and integrated like one that was designed
from scratch to be used in this way, but would certainly work.

I used one of the MiniITX supplies to power a system that is mounted in a box
on a tree with a solar panel charging a deep cycle battery. It is the
download/storage point for a number of wildlife cameras nearby.

[1] [https://www.amazon.com/250w-DC-ATX-Power-Supply-
Supplies/dp/...](https://www.amazon.com/250w-DC-ATX-Power-Supply-
Supplies/dp/B00NB6U3TS)

~~~
effie
Thanks, this is useful. I am thinking about building a UPS at home from
batteries, so it can supply around 650W of DC power. I assume that using
voltage of 12V on the supply side of the DC-DC converter would be too energy-
inefficient for such high a power, so I'm thinking I'd better string such 12V
batteries in series to get higher voltage, say 300 V. This should have minimal
transmission losses, so I can lead this to my DC-DC converter via standard
electric wires.

~~~
ChuckMcM
Most of the mid-range UPS systems that are rated at 650KVA or above will use
dual 12V batteries for 24V driving an inverter. You can get 1kW inverters for
RV's but they need thick (0 gage) wires connected to the battery.

For "universal" battery power (and lots of gear in the market already)
consider 48V power. That has been the standard at phone companies for decades
so there is a lot of support for it. I once bid on a 10kW 48V inverter on eBay
that had been removed from service at a phone company. It made (240V two phase
power for telephone racks).

------
gggmaster
This will make motherboards more expensive and fragile. Desktop chipsets from
Intel can only support two generations of processors. While a good PSU can
have ten years of warranty.

~~~
guerrilla
A plan for planned obsolescence?

~~~
gggmaster
Delivering only 12V has its own pros, so I will give them the benefit of
doubt. But I think this move will increase my cost of building desktops.

------
jotm
Not the first time Intel is pushing for tighter VRM integration.

Haswell had FIVR, which I think was pretty revolutionary, the die itself
contained VRMs for the CPU, IGP, memory and more.

Sadly, they gave up on it, probably because it made the processors run hot as
hell.

There's not enough die area to cool all of that plus the processing cores and
multiple controllers themselves

------
rb808
Why 12v though? What requires that much voltage? The chips are running at a
few volts. Spinning drives are gone, is it just for fans? Seems silly to
provide 12v then shift it down again.

~~~
mcv
True, but motherboards need to shift down anyway. The motherboard controls the
voltage of the CPU, and that can be anything.

------
microcolonel
So I guess this makes it cheaper to make lower-idling power supplies; or does
a high quality current ATX PSU, like one of the Seasonic Titanium models, not
meet the CEC standards for idle power?

------
ksec
I actually want a spec that is similar to Apple's Mac Pro, there should be
Zero Cables.

------
AncientTree
The big advantage could be finally moving the PSU out of the case, and having
it as just an external power brick. This will make systems significantly
lighter and smaller (and thus more portable), take heat out of the case, and
improve airflow.

You can already buy 330w laptop chargers - just beef them up and you could
easily run a mid-grade gaming PC.

[https://www.amazon.com/Dell-Adapter-
DA330PM111-ADP-330AB-332...](https://www.amazon.com/Dell-Adapter-
DA330PM111-ADP-330AB-332-1432/dp/B00CGA5JQM/ref=sr_1_6?keywords=330w+laptop+charger&qid=1583854491&sr=8-6)
You can already buy

------
tus88
Fuck them. Building retro PCs using modern power supplies will get ever more
harder now.

~~~
sounds
It'll be easy to find converters once the market shifts. There are enough
retro builders that one will get built.

------
londons_explore
Why does this still have 10 pins?

2 pins would be plenty. 12v Power, Ground, and an overlaid capacitively
coupled 2 way data comms running at a few hundred khz to send and receive
status messages, fan speeds, model/serial numbers, firmware/ temperatures,
on/off commands, etc.

~~~
mackal
1 pin is called PS_ON, this shorting to ground turns it on. 1 called PWR_OK
which says everything is working in some way I don't want to research. 1 +12V
for stand by. 1 +12V sense for detecting voltage drop or something. And then 2
normal +12V and 3 ground. There is 1 reserved pin as well (rectangle connector
so needs even pin count)

~~~
jleahy
> +12V sense for detecting voltage drop or something

This is actually the best bit, incredibly smart idea. It's a kelvin connection
to ensure that you get 12V at the motherboard, regardless of power dissipation
in the wire.

~~~
thedance
Why is it important to have absolute accuracy on the 12V pin?

~~~
magicalhippo
Not absolute accuracy, but you can easily drop a few volts on transmission
losses if the cable is poor or damaged.

~~~
blattimwind
If you drop a few volts on the 12 V cable of a PC you're about to start a
fire.

