
The War on Upstart Fiber Internet Providers - joecool1029
http://chrishacken.com/the-war-on-upstart-fiber-optic-internet-providers/
======
mjevans
The "last mile" (couple KM) of physical infrastructure should be owned by the
people.

This is the way that it works best for walkways, roads, and even utilities
like power and water where (at least I've only ever seen) one single option
exists and is highly regulated. In the case of power that's true for
'transmission' but there have been times I've had options for generation.

IMO laws like the ones in Washington State that were put in place by
entrenched and abusive commercial monopolies (like the cable companies and
telephone companies) harm competition, by restricting existing and new
utilities from partnering with the people to create these last mile platforms,
and allow competition on top of them. Just as how there is competition in
package delivery service on top of the roadways.

~~~
jonpurdy
Back in 2016 in Toronto, I chose a condominium specifically because it had
Beanfield fiber (it was $50CAD/mo for 250 Mbit symmetric, no cap). Other
buildings had Bell or Rogers at double the cost, with caps, and sometimes
asymmetric. Those other buildings signed agreements with either Bell or Rogers
and for the rest of the life of the building, those residents will be stuck
with inferior, more expensive service.

When we moved to SF a few months ago, Sonic wasn't available in our building
so we had to get AT&T. I'm paying almost double what Sonic charges for
basically the same service.

In both cases, where buildings had exclusivity agreements or had the fiber
providers lay the fiber themselves, residents are worse off. Buildings should
be running their own fiber and letting residents hook up to whoever they want.

Same thing with residential house internet; cities should own the last mile
infrastructure (sure, pay providers to dig it and run it if you have to).

Especially since we're migrating off of copper and onto fiber; this is the
chance to get it right for the next few decades!

~~~
vzidex
> Back in 2016 in Toronto, I chose a condominium specifically because it had
> Beanfield fiber

I'm in Toronto, thank goodness this is becoming more common, not less. I was
recently condo hunting and I noticed most new buildings had Beanfield or their
competitor, FibreStream. The building we ended up with has the latter, so
we're getting 500Mbps symmetric/no cap.

Yay for not having to annually fight with Bell for a "promotional" rate
anymore!

~~~
nikon
I'm looking forward to this when I move next. I currently have Rogers 1Gbps on
a promotional rate, which is pretty good, but 30Mbps upload cap. Also double
what you're paying!

~~~
ls65536
The asymmetry between download and upload speeds on cable connections is
really awful in recent years. I see advertised download speeds like 300 Mbps
and 1 Gbps available in many places, but the upload speeds seem to never
exceed 30 Mbps around here (which is just 3% of the download speed at 1
Gbps!). Having something like 250/250 Mbps symmetric available would be
overall more preferable than 1000/30 in all but the most extreme download
situations, in my opinion.

I suppose maybe the cable networks are more optimized for average user
behaviour (far more download than upload), but maybe there's also a
fundamental limitation with the cable infrastructure that prevents faster
uploads, perhaps to do with cable's legacy delivering television broadcasts?
Whereas with fibre, almost everything I've seen available comes with symmetric
speeds by default.

~~~
selectodude
The major reason that upload speeds tend to be far lower is that they are the
lowest part of the spectrum on a cable network. As everything on a shared
cable network is receiving everything else, encryption and noise filters are
imperative. The higher the frequency of your noise, the more likely it is to
cause issues on the rest of the hardware. There are high-pass filters all over
the coax network to ensure that nothing over a certain frequency is able to
get out on the network and screw things up for other customers. In order to
expand the bandwidth by making the coax frequency pie larger, CATV providers
would not only need to replace everybodys equipment to ensure it could handle
the increased noise but also check every single meter of cable to find and
remove all the high-pass filters.

~~~
Godel_unicode
A high-pass filter removes low frequencies, I think you mean there are low-
pass filters.

------
jrockway
One of my secret fantasies is an "Uber for ISPs". That is where someone
ignores all the laws, rules, and regulations, and just builds a fiber ISP
without anyone's permission. String fiber in through people's windows. Instead
of burying them, put them in those temporary cable trenches (that you see all
the time for construction or film crews), or run them beside sidewalks and
cover them with cement. Hell, maybe a really sticky piece of duct tape is
enough.

It would be totally illegal and you'd probably go to prison forever if you
started a company to do it. And annoying people with scissors would be cutting
them every day (not to mention glass-eating wasps! a real thing!).

But I'd pay for it.

~~~
jedberg
I did this on a small scale in college! Back then the only way to get internet
was via dialup, unless you paid $300+ a month for a DSL line (which was about
5x the speed and always on).

Since my friends and I had all just moved into a brand new apartment building
together, I picked up a spool of ethernet and some ends and we literally
strung the wires from window to window (wireless was far too expensive). The
building was blue so I used blue wires and the owner either didn't notice or
didn't care, because no one said a thing about it.

We all split the cost of the initial supplies and then everyone paid me
whatever they could for the internet and I covered the rest. We had 10 people
and I ended up paying about $40/mo for it personally.

On the plus side, since I controlled the gateway (and old computer the
University threw out) I could do fun stuff like traffic shaping and setting up
a web server to be a bulletin board for us. Also I got everyone to install one
of those enterprise notification things on their Windows machines so we could
send blast messages to each other about going to the city or down to the local
cafe for dinner.

Good times.

~~~
nobleach
This is what I did in college! Ethernet cable under the carpet and along the
wall for me. I had DSL piped into a Freesco Router (a floppy disk running
Linux 2.0.36). I remember finally upgrading to an ethernet based ADSL modem
that had the ability to flash it with router firmware. All I had to do was
plug that thing into my 10baseT 3Com switch!!

~~~
aaronax
We checked out a drill from the dorm office (could also get DVDs and stuff)
and attempted to drill from inside of a closet into a beam that crossed the
hallway. The beam seemed likely to be hollow so the idea was that then we
could run a cable across and have glorious gigabit instead of the 100 Mbps
that the dorm switches provided. But the exploratory drilling in the first
closet was not rewarding.

------
edraferi
House Democrats just proposed $100B to fund last mile fiber. The bill includes
thinks like a "Dig Once" provision and supersedes state laws against municipal
fiber.

[https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2020/06/100-billion-
univ...](https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2020/06/100-billion-universal-
fiber-plan-proposed-by-democrats-in-congress/)

[https://www.majoritywhip.gov/?press=clyburn-rural-
broadband-...](https://www.majoritywhip.gov/?press=clyburn-rural-broadband-
task-force-and-house-democrats-introduce-accessible-affordable-internet-for-
all-act)

~~~
tryptophan
ugh, that bill is horrible. 0 talk of deregulating things which allow the ISP
monopolies(which are responsible for the terrible service) to exist. Literally
just another tax-payer handout to private companies.

~~~
xenospn
If I remember correctly, in Israel they forced the telcos to open up their
infrastructure to everyone and the sky didn't fall down.

~~~
everybodyknows
Here in the US, AT+T was ordered to allow independent DSL operators to share
its twisted pair to households. Worked okay for a while, but AT+T found ways
to get the shared equipment e.g. at the local office, misconfigured for those
customers. Source: I was such a one, with a year and a half of intermittent
service.

My fear for open access is where the open market ISPs and the natural monopoly
fiber demux meet -- we should fear attempts at collusion and market
manipulation.

~~~
kitteh
It was the 1996 telecom act and it was implemented poorly and the telcos made
it super difficult to operate within.

Note that cable companies were exempt (which is because they had better
politicians) and telcos had a lot of runway to put up barriers for a clec to
provide services. In the end, the telcos moved the goal posts, could subsidize
customer equipment better and could delay your installs.

~~~
jessaustin
This was always the plan. Pretend to follow and enforce UNE regulations for a
few years, so that lots of investors would be fooled into thinking that
competition could exist in USA telecom. Then after lots of infrastructure has
been built out that the Daughters Bell would like to acquire for pennies on
the dollar (to subsidize their simultaneous large investment on the wireless
side), completely stop enforcing any UNE program. CLEC pitches to new
customers: "If you sign up today, we'll be able to start your service in one
to five months!" Poof, there goes the business. Now you have to sell all your
customers, equipment, marketing, etc. to the same assholes who colluded with
FCC to screw you over, at fire-sale prices. ILEC execs, bankers, and
politicians got rich. Telecom investors learned they have to wire around
anything that FCC/PUCs can reach. In dense locations that may be fiber.
Everywhere else it will be higher-GHz-band wireless. Absorption will make
anticonsumer regulation more obviously corrupt, and there will be only so much
that FCC can do.

In general, this is how massive new laws in USA work. Lots of
consumers/citizens/normal people are somewhat dissatisfied with the status
quo, and so some public-interest people start pushing through a big change to
benefit humanity at the slight expense of entrenched interests. Lobbyists for
entrenched interests aren't stupid; they know you don't step in front of a
speeding train. Instead, they flip all the right switches (i.e. they pay
massive bribes) to direct the train along the tracks they prefer. "Oh, we're
going to have competition in wired telecommunications, are we? Yes, let's
pretend that, just for fun..."

~~~
kitteh
Yes. This was the reality. A ton of money went into DSL/clecs that were gone
within years. Saw it first hand.

------
smoyer
> Recently, the FCC and USDA, among others, have created massive funds in an
> effort to deploy broadband in underserved areas.

The Universal Service Fund was established mid-'90s to get fund
telecommunications connections to schools and libraries in rural areas (in the
same way the Rural Electrification Act did in the early 1900s). Funds were
paid out through 2000 or so but I haven't heard of any contracts being built
using USF funds since then. I will however point out that you can still see
this surcharge on your phone bill. I also agree that these contracts tended to
favor huge CLECs (versus huge cable companies back then) and that more
consideration should be given to "mom and pop" shops.

EDIT: The focus on schools and libraries was an effort to get service into
these geographic areas with the idea that once it was there, consumers would
be targeted as customers who could then "just connect". That's when we also
learned that the "last mile" was way more expensive (often politically) than
anticipated. In the cable industry, the response was to upgrade plant
equipment and create/adopt the DOCSIS standard for data transmission over
coax.

DISCLAIMER: I was a member of two of the committees that helped write specific
portions of the DOCSIS 2.0 specification.

------
lwhalen
This is what is preventing my move from suburban Washington State to rural
Montana or even Idaho. Getting ANY information from wired ISPs is like pulling
teeth. Each address has to be called in, and no ISP can say something helpful
like "we don't service that, but try ISP X", they all say "that's not on our
service area... today".

I have high hopes for Starlink, personally, but my first choice would
absolutely be gigabit fiber to the homestead.

~~~
jschwartzi
Whatever you do, avoid Ziply. It sounds like a great deal but when they bought
out Frontier in our area they cancelled our auto-pay and then wouldn't refund
the late fee. I think we spent more than 16 hours total on the phone with
them. They still haven't mailed out the return label for their MoCa bridge.
The first time we tried calling them the CSR would "put us on hold to be
transferred" and then hang up on us. This happened about 3 times over the
course of 2 hours. Nothing any of their CSRs say can be trusted.

It is absolutely the worst company I have ever had the displeasure of doing
business with, and I'm so happy I had the option of switching to Comcast.

~~~
slivanes
Just be aware that Ziply inherited the Frontier customer support team and the
supposedly poor software as well.

My last call with Ziply 2 weeks ago to upgrade my 50/50 to 100/100 was a great
experience. I'm not saying every call is going to be great, just that it can
be.

------
alexchamberlain
I think we need to make it a lot cheaper to run cables like this: I don't
understand why we have to dig up roads to lay cables. Why can't there be a
shared conduit for cables underneath or beside a road? It can be included in
the initial construction of the road, for example.

~~~
monocasa
> I don't understand why we have to dig up roads to lay cables. Why can't
> there be a shared conduit for cables underneath or beside a road?

Because the city doesn't want to pay for it. And the companies, having the
money to dig the road up don't want to make their competitor's jobs easier. So
pretty classic market failure.

What needs to happen, IMO, is that the last mile should be utility
infrastructure, and ISPs should connect to that. Then the ISPs pay the city
for use of the last mile on a endpoint by endpoint basis. Lowers the barrier
for new ISPs since they don't have to dig up new last mile, and the city is
encouraged to upkeep the last mile since it's a revenue stream with a few high
paying representatives of customers (so no tragedy of the commons), but the
low barrier to entry for ISPs means that the city won't get too connected to
individual ISPs.

~~~
rayiner
Okay but who is going to do that? My county is still working on bringing water
and sewer to most places, and I’m less than 10 minutes outside Annapolis.
Especially places that already have cable or fiber that was privately
installed?

~~~
monocasa
When there's a clear revenue source coming out of it, bonds make sense to pay
for it.

And yeah, if you're in barely first world conditions where you're struggling
to hook sewer up to your residents near a major municipality, you obviously
have systemic issues that get in the way of proper utility work of nearly any
scale.

~~~
rayiner
20% of the country doesn’t have public water or sewer, including many fairly
wealth areas. In vastly more of the country, existing water and sewer
infrastructure is crumbling and needs replacement. Sure, you can pass bonds,
but how do you get people to vote for those bonds when you also need to issue
bonds for all this other higher priority infrastructure?

~~~
monocasa
> 20% of the country doesn’t have public water or sewer, including many fairly
> wealth areas

Almost entirely rural. These people aren't digging up roads, but it's purely a
right of way issue on the poles (if they're getting real high speed internet
either way).

> In vastly more of the country, existing water and sewer infrastructure is
> crumbling and needs replacement.

Yes, the united states is devolving into a third world country when it comes
to infrastructure. My scheme is obviously predicated on not being in one of
the municipalities that are actively trying to run the concept of government
into the ground.

> Sure, you can pass bonds, but how do you get people to vote for those bonds
> when you also need to issue bonds for all this other higher priority
> infrastructure?

So you don't get to have works like this until you have the basics of potable
water covered.

Like for real, 10 minutes outside of Annapolis should be able to have sewer
covered.

~~~
db48x
That's probably a misunderstanding. There are plenty of places that don't have
public water, but that do have abundant potable water. It's just coming from a
nearby well rather than a water treatment plant. Same with the sewer; they've
got private septic systems rather than a public sewer system. This type of
distributed infrastructure is less costly and more resilient than public water
and sewer systems, though it's not suitable for cities or even suburbs.

~~~
monocasa
I understand that, I have a house on a well.

That bit is covered by my first response:

> Almost entirely rural. These people aren't digging up roads, but it's purely
> a right of way issue on the poles (if they're getting real high speed
> internet either way).

The part you seem to take issue with is the part where I think I had reduced
the subset to people who have an issue getting current infrastructure,
probably because it hasn't been maintained properly (thinking of flint like
situations). I'm admitting that there are cases where they have bigger utility
issues and systemic problems managing those utilities, and probably don't have
the bandwidth to deal with a new one.

------
client4
This is 100% accurate. Add in hostile/lazy city utility offices, litigious
competitors with infinite pockets, and people who just hate change and you're
starting to understand the uphill battle that is bettering internet
infrastructure.

~~~
zahma
There’s also intergenerational change. Many older folks don’t care about the
benefits of high speed internet and fiber. Add in resistance to change and
that can create some startling traction against progress.

------
8ytecoder
\- I live in a building with 180 units. Our options are AT&T and Comcast.
Copper is mandatory and old. Want to guess how Comcast is them the only option
for fast broadband?

\- When I upgraded my plan the first person to notice it was my mom in India.
Her internet is so much better that the increase in my upload speed was
visibly apparent to her. I realised I was the bottleneck.

\- I appreciated the local control in the US a lot. But I now know it’s a huge
detriment to develop and improve basic infrastructure. The goal is to keep
things the way they are. In that sense even San Francisco is extremely
conservative.

------
cnorthwood
In the UK, I have a "full fibre" provider (Hyperoptic) which pretty much
exclusively serve apartment blocks. They run fibre to a switch they install in
the building, and then ethernet cabling from that switch to every apartment.
Targetting dense buildings I suspect gives them a really good cost/customer
upfront ratio (in some cities they own their own fibre, in others they use
other commercial providers, including Openreach which was spun out of the
former state monopoly BT and has to provide fair rates to competitors). The
latter seems like a reasonable trade off of government regulation and free
market to encourage competition, I suspect the lobbying culture in the US
wouldn't allow it though.

------
radicaldreamer
In San Francisco, everyone along streets with underground utilities are denied
fiber due to Public Works disallowing microtrenching.

Additionally, AT&T has not upgraded their lines in these areas, so we're stuck
with Comcast or DSL...

~~~
driverdan
Also the NIMBYs and ridiculous permitting requirements, such as needing
environmental studies to add distribution boxes.

~~~
parineum
How do NIMBYs play into this?

~~~
kitteh
They've fought the installation of CEVs (controlled environment vaults) which
are used to put in network/telecom gear to extend broadband services.

One town decided they didn't like this beige box on a main street so they
painted over it with a color that fit better. Turns out, that paint was
important for cooling it: within a few days gear overheated and hundreds were
out of service.

------
gregors
Chattanooga's EPB - 300mbps up/down 57.99, 1Gps up/down 67.99 10Gps up/down
299.00

[https://epb.com/home-store/internet](https://epb.com/home-store/internet)

[https://www.reddit.com/r/Chattanooga/comments/hfeu38/epb_rep...](https://www.reddit.com/r/Chattanooga/comments/hfeu38/epb_representing_im_proud_to_call_chatt_my_home)

~~~
RNCTX
I was pleasantly surprised last time I stayed in Chattanooga ;).

I was flying a private airplane (am a pilot) and the monthly GIS database
updates and PNG map tiles required to fly with an app rather than paper maps
go well into the tens of gigs, which is usually quite painful on hotel wifi.

I set the update going on my iPad one night in the hotel before going to bed,
took a shower, and was pleasantly surprised after coming out of the bathroom a
few minutes later to see that it was done!

Proof that private ownership of infrastructure is bullshit, and utilities
(including internet lines) should not be owned by profit-seeking
organizations.

------
whatsmyusername
Yeah PA this doesn't surprise me. It's Pittsburgh and Philly with a 3rd world
country in between.

The entire state is basically those two islands, and 4 highways to get back
and forth from the northeast. The rest is mountains and nothing filled with
people fighting over scraps while getting snooty about the, 'dangerous high
tax cities.'

Source, grew up in the nothing part of the state. Hit the road for Pittsburgh
as soon as I could afford it and never looked back.

------
akg_67
What is the point of having advanced technologies, products, and services that
are largely inaccessible to large segment of the population? There is
something inherently structurally broken how US operates.

I pay about same amount for an unreliable 50Mbps cable internet connection at
my home in US, and for 1Gbps Fibre internet connection at my home in Japan.

------
llsf
Is a typical thing (i.e. infrastructure) that the government (federal, state
and local combined) should pay and maintain ? Clearly letting private
companies doing it is not working in US. Dig once, lay enough municipal fiber,
and rent it to any ISP that want to reach houses/buildings. Use that
opportunity to properly lay the phone, cable, and electricity, and rent them
out as well to the local provider of voice, TV and electricity. And the nice
bonus would be uncluttered street, no more poles and wires going from building
to building. Yes, it is expensive to lay down fiber, phone, cable,
electricity. But if we had done the investment 20 years ago, it would likely
be ahead now, with lower cost for customers, and a thriving environment with
more innovation...

------
snisarenko
The writer forgot to mention the most important barrier - Basic economics.

Last mile infrastructure is always a winner takes all market.

Even if all the barriers to entry are removed, you won't have 20 different
providers competing in a single city. Only 1 or 2 providers will survive. This
is because operational costs for running your own lines will be constant, but
you will always have only a fraction of the customers if you are competing
with 20 other providers.

I've commented on this topic in a previous HN thread. But I believe the
solution to the problem is a bidding system. Companies bid to build
infrastructure. And companies bid to maintain it for short period of time (3
years).

~~~
knjoy
I think the solution is what the developing countries have done: the national
government just install the cables, then rent out the infrastructure to
private companies to compete/service.

~~~
pottertheotter
Several cities in the United States have implemented municipal fiber. There
are a few different models [1] but my favorite is "open access", where the
city owns the fiber and allows many providers to use it. (See more here [2].)

UTOPIA, a consortium of cities in Utah, operates under an open access model.
You pay a $30 fee to the city for the line and then choose from 12 different
ISPs [3]. A symmetrical 1Gbps plan is around $50, so $80 total. You can even
get a 10Gbps plan for $200. If you're having problems with the ISP you're
using, you just go online and change it.

[1]
[https://muninetworks.org/sites/www.muninetworks.org/files/20...](https://muninetworks.org/sites/www.muninetworks.org/files/2017-07-Muni-
Fiber-Models-Fact-Sheet-FINAL.pdf) [2] [https://muninetworks.org/content/open-
access](https://muninetworks.org/content/open-access) [3]
[https://www.utopiafiber.com/residential3pricing/](https://www.utopiafiber.com/residential3pricing/)

~~~
tracker1
The problem lies in states where they've been successfully lobbied at the
state level to block municipal telecom.

~~~
onionjake
Utah is one of those states that has laws that were originally crafted to
prevent municipalities from providing the service by big ISP lobbyists. The
law prevents municipalities from offering the service directly to consumers
(still does), so UTOPIA was born with an open access network via a 'loophole'
if you will in the laws.

------
r_singh
I work for a company that provides BSS/OSS software to small ISPs in India.
I'm so glad that the legal system in India is so weak that it is not possible
for monopolies to enforce ownership of last mile infrastructure as smaller
local players can just throw wires over buildings and give consumers the
service at a low cost.

Our software is as cheap as 0.1 USD per user per month and has a large list of
features and we're provisioning over a million connections all over India from
villages to large cities like Mumbai.

~~~
iptrans
Email me (see profile) or posts a link to your BSS/OSS. Inquiring minds want
to know if it is usable outside India.

~~~
r_singh
Sure, just emailed you (from address in my profile) with a link to our BSS/OSS
and login credentials for you.

Would love to hear from you if you have any feedback or questions.

------
kayoone
Reading this I am very happy that my hometown state in Germany runs a state
funded fiber project now. My mom had max 3Mbps for the last 18 years or so and
will soon have 1Gbps for the same money.

~~~
ChuckNorris89
Which state/city is that?

~~~
kayoone
I realised the correct term in english is rather County than state though

Kreis Minden Lübbecke [https://standort-minden-
luebbecke.de/Standort/Breitband-Ausb...](https://standort-minden-
luebbecke.de/Standort/Breitband-Ausbau)

------
pyryt
There's probably a good explanation, but let me ask the question: why do we
need to have men cutting hard road surfaces?

If a city extends their subway network, they dont demolish all buildings on
top, lay the tracks, and then rebuild. They do it without any major
interference to the surface. Similarly for mountain tunnels, you dont start by
demolishing a mile of rock. We just dig the tunnel.

Couldn't someone invent a robot to dig fibre tunnels? Then we wouldnt need to
bother any shop owners or neighbours with noise and inconvenience?

~~~
agakshat
I would guess it’s a matter of cost and how deep the tunnel needs to be dug.

~~~
pyryt
It could be. Otoh, if you were able to have less workers on the job, avoid
having to repave entire streets, and avoid having to wait for 6 months to get
started... youd think itd be worth it

------
ethagknight
In Memphis, TN, we have hideous overhead power lines running along most
streets, usually with a combination of high voltage, low voltage,
communication lines, and untold abandoned cabling. Im amazed that citizens
will tolerate a very poorly maintained network of power poles vs arguing with
cities and utilities to begin the admittedly long, expensive, and slow work to
clean ups the more egregious and prominent locations, like along major
thoroughfares. These overhead distribution networks require significant
mutilation of trees (ugly) and are vulnerable to a variety of accidents
including cars striking poles, trees falling on wires, squirrels exploding,
etc.

A city-led effort to install underground conduit duct banks could be federally
funded while also allow new ISPs to come along and lease empty conduit. Thats
where I would focus my grass roots efforts.

In Memphis, its rumored to cost some $3B to bury all overhead power lines
(estimated by the local public utility), therefore infeasible. I say,
excellent, get to work on the easiest 50% of the scoop that over the next
decade!

~~~
toomuchtodo
I would strongly encourage you to run for local office. You're on the right
track, and the path to success is more leverage.

~~~
pottertheotter
More people need to do this! There is so much that can be done by getting
involved in local office. Earlier this year I successfully got a seat on the
board overseeing my city's public utilities. One of my goals is to get
municipal broadband.

~~~
toomuchtodo
Thank you for your efforts!

------
grecy
> _Last year we were installing conduit for our fiber optic network. There
> were countless instances where people would literally stop their cars, roll
> down their windows, and yell profanities at us. In what world is that
> acceptable behavior for an adult?_

In a world that highlights individuals, and where everyone has been taught
their time is more valuable than other people's.

------
rayiner
> Last year we were installing conduit for our fiber optic network. There were
> countless instances where people would literally stop their cars, roll down
> their windows, and yell profanities at us. In what world is that acceptable
> behavior for an adult?

People hate infrastructure. That’s the only explanation.

~~~
saagarjha
Many people dislike construction.

------
kelvin0
I think it really sucks when you try to do good by everyone (community,
business owners, ordinary citizens) and encounter so much friction. I think I
can understand the author's point of view. Many areas seem to have dismal
internet access in the US (I live in Canada).

However it seems to be a much better outcome for all compared to the 'wild-
west-shoot-from-the-hip' method where anyone digs anywhere with minimal
regulation and oversight.

Not having an infrastructure and building it slowly is better in my opinion
than degrading public infrastructure and then having citizen foot the bill to
clean up the mess left by some fast and loose startups.

I mention this in this particular context of building and transforming
physical installations who affect the general public.

------
ggm
Public utility functions are best run by regulated processes and it's just
rubbish to say market forces help here. Prices for internet are now decoupled
from true underlying cost in almost all markets. Fibre is a fifty year plus
investment in the ground. Do it once.

------
johnklos
Interesting, but it's painful to read. It's as if someone is paying Chris per
apostrophe.

------
TrackerFF
With 5G, I think there's even less motivation for ISPs to provide fiber to
those out of range. To the point where they'll just jack up the installation
prices until no-one bothers them anymore.

At least that's the feeling I'm getting now. A friend of mine recently moved
into a new building, which isn't too far from a fiber central. It's also out
in the suburbs, so no extensive infrastructure like you'd find in the middle
of a city...well, he requested a quote, and the company said - "hey, it'll
cost you around $20k for [short stretch], but we're also offering wireless
broadband for only [2-3 times the price of fiber, and 1/5th the speed)"

~~~
Tagbert
What is the price of an unlimited 5G connection? If it is being provided by a
telco I imagine that it will expensive and have limited data caps.

~~~
onionjake
Verizon's is $70/month with no datacaps yet.

Speed and ability to get the service varies greatly by distance and LOS to the
tower.

Source: [https://www.verizon.com/support/5g-home-
faqs/](https://www.verizon.com/support/5g-home-faqs/)

------
alex_young
I spent the last 2 years living in the south of Switzerland.

Wages are very high, costs of goods are high, but telecom services are
inexpensive and very high quality.

In Lugano, I was paying $40 / month for 10 GB symmetric fiber to the home, and
another $40 / month for truly unlimited 4G cell service. They gave me a $10
discount for bundling.

Fiber is universally wired to new buildings, and you have your choice of ISPs.
There were cheaper options.

Whatever the reason, the US has been unable to figure this out. It’s not the
urban nature of Europe. Small villages have the same setup.

------
product50
I feel so lucky that I live in an area with fiber internet and 1000mbps
speeds. I remember when we were house hunting, this was one of my criteria.
While leads to my point - if enough people want fast internet speeds, they
should/could plan their house buying/renting strategies accordingly. Nothing
like incenting local municipalities to take action based on a community of
people motivated by money.

------
greesil
There's a good Planet Money podcast on this

[https://www.npr.org/2020/05/29/865908114/small-america-vs-
bi...](https://www.npr.org/2020/05/29/865908114/small-america-vs-big-internet)

------
qserasera
I believe the strategy is to frustrate tax payers into footing the bill
allowing telecoms access to the enormous teat of the American government and
others.

Rent seeking delenda est

------
seph-reed
So, right now is a terrible time for this logic given we live in an oligarchy
with very little representation, but if we lived in an actual functional
government, services like this seem like they should be socialized.

I don't want 3 different sewage companies ripping up my block to put in 3
different sewage lines. Similarly, I don't want a bunch of different internet
providers having to do that.

Once again, this only makes sense in a functional government. Not in a
lobbyist hacked representative democracy turned oligarchy.

~~~
mulmen
Government dysfunction is a matter of perception. This defeatist attitude is
toxic. Our government is functional. Your vote does count. You do have input,
especially at a local level.

~~~
seph-reed
DUDE. They got root.

If this was a computer system, then they managed to leverage lobbying until
they were able to move enough pieces to be able to turn money into real
systemic changes, and at this point they've reached the top. They've also
reached the bottom in the sense that if this was a pure democracy, they'd
still get majority vote through manipulating non-experts.

The government is a system, and you're a "hacker." Honestly, how much further
could the wealthy escalate their privileges?

P.S. Go vote anyways.

~~~
mulmen
We all have root, that's the point.

Sure lobbyists have a lot of influence. That doesn't make the United States an
oligarchy.

------
MangoCoffee
i have two choices in my area. ATT DSL or Comcast cable. the phone line system
is so old in my neighborhood. it just barely better than dial up so i'm left
with Comcast as the only option for high speed.

i'm hoping Elon Musk's Starlink will give us the high speed that we hope for
that is not control by monopoly like Comcast and ATT.

~~~
lotsofpulp
This is the situation in most areas of the US. A few lucky people are in new
developments where the phone company has run fiber wire and offers a real
fiber to the home connection, but most are stuck with a crappy connection via
coaxial wires.

~~~
ProZsolt
Coax is not that bad. In theory you can get 10Gbps down and 6Gbps up.[1] The
problem is cable companies with monopoly in the US. In Hungary you can get
1Gbps down 200Mbps up for less than 25 USD, and they rolling out DOCSIS 3.1

[2]:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DOCSIS](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DOCSIS)

------
vikramkr
Who owns these poles? Are these municipalities or corporations? If the latter,
who owns the land these poles are on?

------
whatsmyusername
> I remember my brother and I fighting over the computer day in and day out to
> play games like Wolfenstein - Enemy Territory, which was released in 2003.
> (I'm convinced that this will be the all-time best FPS game ever created.)

The author is correct.

------
surajs
The answer is a no, now and forever so get it over with at your own sweet
pace.

------
swiley
Am I weird for not wanting fiber run into my apartment?

Sure it makes sense for ISPs to use it for infrastructure but the link from
their switch to my equipment should be made of copper. It’s so easy to mess
those cables up and having a contracted fish around in your walls just so you
can have your <1Gig connection back is stupid.

When I first got a connection here it took the guy an extra few hours to deal
with exactly this kind of problem.

~~~
maxsilver
The problem is that your going to have a contractor fish around in your walls
and mess cables up _anyway_. If they aren't doing it for fiber, they'll be
doing it for coax or ancient copper DSL lines.

So, if you have to have a person punch holes and fish around in walls anyway,
you might as well get a nice fiber connection out of it, right?

