
Nude pics as IOU: a new, risky online loan among Chinese university students - JumpCrisscross
http://en.people.cn/n3/2016/0614/c90000-9071896.html
======
camino020
This is just the first step towards something else. But they need a first step
that is not too scary. Once you get used to it then it goes to the next step
and so on until complete slavery. Not middle age type slavery but
psychological slavery where nothing belongs to you anymore, not even your
self. So you will do whatever you are told, since you otherwise have no
concept of possibly having other resources to survive. Frog in the boiling
water approach. And of course the debt will pass on to your family, etc...

~~~
FilterSweep
> Not middle age type slavery but psychological slavery where nothing belongs
> to you anymore, not even your self

Could one argue that almost all individuals who use the modern day internet
("Internet 2.0") with their identity and privacy unknowingly jeopardized are
subject to this same psychological slavery?

I think your comment spills over onto the rest of us, regardless of debt,
after the Snowden disclosures. We are all frogs in the same pot of boiling
water. There are some resources we have (such as end-to-end encryption), but
for the most part, similar leverage is held over most of us.

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adgasf
How do you prove that the pictures have been deleted once the loan is repaid?
Seems like the borrower is exposed to blackmail.

~~~
csomar
I think there can be multiple solutions (and maybe the blockchain can help in
that).

For example, the image is processed in the browser. The platform/lender only
get the nude with the face blurred. The <code/script> to un-blur is available
in a bitcoin/ethereum transaction/contract; and the borrower can stop it if he
pays on time.

But for now, they are exposed to blackmail.

ps: it's interesting how the blockchain can come in handy for all these shady
uses; and we still struggle to find one legitimate use case for it.

~~~
gwern
You're semi-joking, but blockchains _could_ solve this problem cleanly:
releasing secret information unless payment is made. In this case, it's a
subcase of time-lock crypto ([http://www.gwern.net/Self-
decrypting%20files](http://www.gwern.net/Self-decrypting%20files)) and like
time-lock crypto in general, can in theory be solved by 'witness encryption'.

Witness crypto lets you create an encrypted file whose decryption key is _X_
Bitcoin blocks (specifically, their SHA hashes which are the PoW); after _X_
blocks have been created after a particular block ID, the file can be
decrypted. So that's general time-lock crypto, for public broadcast. The
witness could be extended to include the transactions: decrypted iff _X_
blocks pass with <_Y_ bitcoins sent to address _Z_. The _Y_ is the loan, and
the address _Z_ is the blackmail counterparty. To render the blackmail file
permanently undecryptable, one simply sends _Y_ bitcoins to _Z_ before _X_
blocks pass - that is, repaying the loan on time.

Who sets up the file? It could be a third party, who only needs to do a one-
time setup & broadcast rather than permanently storing keys & needing to be
trusted indefinitely. Alternately, you could imagine applying even more crypto
magic: homomorphic encryption in which a CNN verifies the presence of nudity
and facial recognition with the borrower. (Witness crypto is currently in the
'magic' realm but homomorphic NNs are surprisingly feasible:
[https://arxiv.org/abs/1412.6181](https://arxiv.org/abs/1412.6181) ). Then the
borrower provides the data, the NN runs over it, verifies it is blackmail, the
witness crypto-encoded file gets released, and now you have a public secure
blackmail system with no trusted third parties.

As always, if crypto isn't solving your problems, you aren't using enough of
it. :)

~~~
nshepperd
Note that the security level of this by design is no more than the proof-of-
work cost of N blocks, if you pay back the loan N blocks before the deadline.
Proof: If the required key is X bitcoin blocks with no transaction to lender,
and you pay it back after X - N blocks, the lender need only mine N blocks,
starting from the Xth, to obtain the key (X blocks). They can do this at any
time.

Therefore, to obtain "acceptable" security, one should probably pay back the
loan long enough before the deadline that the economic cost of mining N wasted
blocks outstrips the value of the blackmail material itself.

(Not considered: the economic calculation probably changes if one entity is
giving out multiple such loans, and can therefore mine "fake" witnesses for
multiple encrypted materials at once?)

~~~
csomar
Seems like a good use of Bitcoin PoW. The current hash rate will cost hundreds
of millions of dollars to setup.

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troebr
It's super creepy and the interest rates are outrageous; but you have to give
it to them, public shaming as a collateral is good "outside the box" thinking.

~~~
peteretep
But ... what are they being shamed for? I don't think I'd want anyone to have
naked photos of me, but there's a gigantic difference between a picture of me
engaging in "shameful" behaviour, and simply a naked photo of me that's been
used for collateral ... isn't there?

~~~
Broken_Hippo
The shame bit is a cultural difference, so it wouldn't have quite the same
impact. Not that it wouldn't be uncomfortable.

I mean, you get this loan for education. Then you get sick or something and
can't pay it back. Suddenly they are threatening to send that same picture to
your parents and your workplace with the note that it is your penalty for not
paying your student loans on time.

And the truth is that I could explain it to my mother. My brother? Yeah,
that's going to be an awkward conversation but I'd get over it. A discussion
on this with a male boss (I'm female)? Yeah, that's going to be uncomfortable
for some time.

~~~
peteretep
So if someone installed a hidden camera in your house, and tried to exhort you
for money with videos of you showering, is that the same thing? If not,
where's the difference?

~~~
Broken_Hippo
Nope. Pre-acceptance of the terms and conditions is different from being
victimized, assuming you mean that I didn't know about the videos in your
example.

In both cases I can somewhat make the embarrassment minimal by just being
upfront with folks.

In the case of debt, however, the reason for the pictures is because I didn't
pay the debt. It doesn't matter if it was preventable or accidental, i'm still
the guilty party. Not only do you have the photos, but you have outsiders
knowing your financial affairs. Nothing can be done if you don't have money.

In your example, someone had to install that camera without permission then
come forward to try to get money. I could call the police. I could forewarn
folks about getting such an email. I have options. Not only that, but people
are more likely to see that I've been victimized in some respect.

Granted, I'm not for the naked photo bribery method of collecting debt, but it
still is different situations.

~~~
peteretep
So the shame here comes from having defaulted on the debt, with the nudity
being proof of that, rather than anything to do with the nudity per-se?

~~~
Broken_Hippo
In a way, yes. In a way, it is punishment for not paying.

To be fair, though, in some cultures the shame really is with the nakedness.
To a lesser extent, that extends to different regions of the US or different
sorts of families.

Edit: Some of the reaction with the nudity - for a supervisor at work - is
that if I was the supervisor getting that picture, I'd never forget the look
of them naked. Whatever I did see. And so I imagine it is about the same for
other people.

------
Uptrenda
Got to say: I can't really think of a better way to solve trust problems in a
peer-to-peer lending platform between strangers. You could use monetary
collateral but if people could do that they wouldn't need to borrow in the
first place.

Other options include legal contracts but then again, the kinds of people who
accept these loans wouldn't be approved for a regular loan and hence suing
them is unlikely to be cost effective. That really only leaves the threat of
violence and most small time lenders aren't going to have the resources to do
that.

Still, I am surprised that anyone would agree to do this. The deal to me seems
incredibly one-sided since you're still having to trust that the other person
will go through with the loan -after- you give them the collateral - and
that's a huge risk in my opinion. The protocol here could be improved by using
an escrow agent but once again that does not completely eliminate trust.

Information is sometimes more liquid than cash ...

~~~
quink
> Got to say: I can't really think of a better way to solve trust problems in
> a peer-to-peer lending platform between strangers.

You've got to consider the people who just don't care about nude pics being
sent to work mates/friends/relatives. Free money for them? Yes please.

Hell, for the right price I'll do it. Especially if it's just a straight up
nude instead of something compromising or whatnot.

~~~
Uptrenda
I think the biggest problem is photoshop. I can't imagine many people wanting
that to happen to them.

------
shermanyo
That was basically the premise of s02e06 of "Nathan For You", but he let them
choose an embarrassing / incriminating pic.

[https://vimeo.com/104358402](https://vimeo.com/104358402)

------
Uptrenda
I just registered nakedloans.io. Feel free to be prudes but I'm going to take
this business idea to market and help reduce some of the friction in the peer-
to-peer loan market.

If anyone wants to team up please leave a reply with some contact details.

~~~
nonsince
The problem is that it's pretty seriously predicated on you caring about your
naked pictures getting out in the world, which a lot (a majority, even?) of
people in the USA and Europe do not. I know that if I could get money with the
only collateral if I don't pay being that naked pictures get on the internet
then I'd use that as an excuse to make money with my body without having to be
sexually attractive.

~~~
FilterSweep
Also there are some laws in the USA, such as the relatively new "revenge porn"
laws that may have clauses that protect borrowers in the event that they can't
pay up.

Credit where it's due though: "nakedloans.io" is a domain that could be
pivoted to other purposes should this one fail.

------
jrockway
A good incentive to learn Photoshop, I suppose.

~~~
rawnlq
I wonder if this "hack" can be automated completely. Input a bikini pic and
output a fake nude with some magical content aware fill that can stitch boobs
on.

It should be good enough to fool the loaner but leave you with a clothed
original for plausible deniability to debunk your nudes later.

~~~
jasonkostempski
They could just require a particular pose within the next 30 seconds to avoid
it.

~~~
Uptrenda
I like this. Very low tech way to solve the problem and at least raises the
cost to an attacker.

------
ohstopitu
While this might be a messed up concept (bordering something you'd see on
Black Mirror), I feel like this is something that can be made safer with
technology.

You could create a middle service (say with Stripe integration), lenders and
borrowers could register, lenders loan the money to borrowers, and borrowers
have their images stored by this middle service (the lenders themselves don't
see the images).

If the loan is paid off, the image is deleted forever (maybe with a sort of
credit rating built in....so the next time you need a loan, maybe you'd not
need an image upto a certain amount).

If not, the image is posed online on the service's website.

(goes without saying, this would be available only for those above 18, etc.
following all possible laws)

My personal take is: I understand this is basically physiological blackmail,
but how does releasing the images help the lender? (as in, the lender probably
won't receive the money anyway - once the image is released).

~~~
csomar
> but how does releasing the images help the lender? (as in, the lender
> probably won't receive the money anyway - once the image is released).

It prevents other borrowers from doing the same. The people that have their
nudes released are a done deal and the lenders know it. But if they don't do
that, the whole concept is off.

~~~
jandrese
The big huge hole in this entire scheme is that there are clearly a good
number of people who are ok with having their nudes available online. I mean,
just look at the Internet.

How does this service avoid having a Suicide Girl sign up and then immediately
bolt with the money?

~~~
csomar
I think they evaluate the prospect through his facebook/social network to
figure out his a "legit" fund receiver.

------
lordnacho
Surely someone will open a business to be your pretend friends and family?

------
herbst
I mean sure thats shady as fuck. But in find the idea brilliant in a way.

------
lcal
Does China have something similar to a credit score? Or is this intended for
people who would normally be denied after a background check of some sort?

~~~
clouddrover
They'll soon have both a financial credit score and a "social credit" score:

[http://foreignpolicy.com/2014/05/08/why-there-are-no-
credit-...](http://foreignpolicy.com/2014/05/08/why-there-are-no-credit-
scores-in-china/)

[https://techcrunch.com/2015/01/27/data-from-alibabas-e-
comme...](https://techcrunch.com/2015/01/27/data-from-alibabas-e-commerce-
sites-is-now-powering-a-credit-scoring-service/)

[http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-
china-34592186](http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-34592186)

------
exaped
If a blurry faced pic alone can be used to verify that the person who receives
the money is the same as the person in the pic, then probably other people can
identify the person from the blurry faced pic. That at least partially defeats
the purpose of blurring the face.

The best approach I can think of is to use an in person meeting, with trusted
hardware that allows the borrower to show the lender the nude pic briefly. The
borrower needs to prove to the lender that a contract exists that would reveal
the decryption key if he or she doesn't pay on time.

Without an in person meeting, there would need to be a trusted third party
that controls the whole process, vouches for the identity of the person in the
nude pic, etc. --- Otherwise the scheme is just based on exclusivity of access
to anyone's nudity as collateral. It could be anyone's nude image.

------
elcct
That works as long as people are bothered about seeing someone nude...

------
wilhil
So, tit for tat?!

That aside... So, does that mean once your picture is released, you don't need
to pay back? If so, I see some people would probably get rich :/

~~~
Mieaou
It's called porn industry.

------
swiley
This just goes to show the incredible power people who are willing to loan
money have in a society that depends on and expects people to borrow it.

------
mythrwy
Interesting that this scheme is aimed at university students and not (for
instance) senior citizens that need short term loans. But I'm sure it's just
about the money:)

------
Chris2048
To clarify: this is just female students?

~~~
supergreg
The article mentions both males and females take their pictures.

~~~
jbtule
However the article just provides examples of women.

------
ako
Get rich quick scheme for nudists...

------
kahrkunne
Those interest rates, my God...

------
aashishkoirala
This is so Black Mirror.

------
koolba
I shudder to think what a CDO of these IOUs would look like.

------
nedat
What a great time to be a nudist.

Although im sure they would make you agree/state that your not a nudist.

------
quantumpotato_
Connection refused (USA)

------
mwill
Reminds me of that scene from US House Of Cards..

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VMG
This is good for bitcoin.

~~~
nikanj
Could we please leave the memes and jokes to Reddit

~~~
VMG
I'm actually serious, I can imagine a bitcoin loan market here.

~~~
supergreg
Is that so the loan shark can be even more shielded thanks to the
pseudonymity? They require family information from the student. A pseudonymous
coin is not going to change anything.

~~~
VMG
Quite the opposite: the pseudonymous coin changes everything.

We already know that Bitcoin's pseudonymity is good enough to avoid
persecution (dark markets, ransomware, etc)

Now it can be also used by loan sharks to make these loans which are highly
illegal in most western countries.

~~~
Uptrenda
That's exactly what I was thinking when I posted it to /r/btc. This actually
does have legitimate applications and the idea of using information as
collateral can also be applied to other problems (most I can think of are
illegal but there you go ...)

