
Final thoughts on Windows 8: A design disaster - mtgx
http://zdnet.com/blog/hardware/final-thoughts-on-windows-8-a-design-disaster/20706
======
simonsarris
> I’m going to avoid commenting on Metro on touch-based systems for now
> because Windows 8 is too far off in the future to know what the hardware is
> going to be like. Instead, I’m going to limit my discussion to using the
> operating system on desktop and notebook systems.

I think he roundly missed the point.

Yes you scan over the screen and it might be hard to find the things you want
on day one. That's how it was with our iPhone and Androids too on the first
day we got them.

You all know what happens. People rearrange to their taste or memorize the
locations of the less-than-five applications that they commonly use. It's not
as if the "where's waldo" game goes on indefinitely.

I think he's being intentionally obtuse about this. Windows is trying to unify
their UI among the XBox, Phones, Tablets and Desktops and he wants to focus on
the one where it will be less useful than the others by complaining about a
problem that literally every smartphone user has already solved by day three.

Typing the name of the app you want is clumsy, you say? More clumsy than
eyeballing a list that gets rather large?

<http://i.imgur.com/Z0pCc.png>

If you know what you want, typing is _vastly_ easier than scanning a long
startmenu list of items.

~~~
old-gregg
But what stops you from re-arranging and placing the most often used
application shortcuts on your desktop in Windows 95? And indeed, most users do
just that. The reviewer correctly points out that this new UI doesn't really
add anything, only takes things away. Shortcuts+search have been around for a
while.

Actually I have no opinion on Windows 8 because I have not seen it myself, but
this review fits both Gnome Shell and Unity very well: it's like they all
suddenly joined the iphone-as-a-desktop cult.

Typing the application titles does not work for me. Because for frequently
used apps I already have hotkeys or sidebar icons, but I never remember the
names of rarely used apps: should I be typing "Monitor settings" or "Display"
or "Desktop" or whatever, if I need to change the background or a screen
resolution?

Lastly, is that really the biggest problem with the modern desktops: finding
apps? Seriously, of all things that could possibly be made better, why are
they all trying to re-invent how we're launching applications?

~~~
simonsarris
> but I never remember the names of rarely used apps: should I be typing
> "Monitor settings" or "Display" or "Desktop" or whatever, if I need to
> change the background or a screen resolution?

Windows Vista and up automatically help you with this. Even typing things like
"DPI" or "wheel" into control panel come up with a list of all possible
relevant _actions that could be taken_ , as opposed to just different panel
screens. Here are a few examples of that in action:

<http://i.imgur.com/c9uN1.png>

<http://i.imgur.com/hZStY.png>

<http://i.imgur.com/dQR9U.png>

> why are they all trying to re-invent how we're launching applications?

My comment said why! It's not a re-invention, just a unification of the look
and feel with the rest of Microsoft's ecosystem (xbox, phones, tablets, PCs
will all have the same "start" screens).

~~~
sesqu
I hate the wizardly control panel, incidentally. Just the other day, I was
trying to remove a device. After maybe five minutes I decided it's not
possible, until some time later accidentally finding the right button to
press. It's very much not clear to me anymore what I can do, or how.

~~~
seabee
Not sure whether you're removing drivers or ejecting hardware, but Device
Manager is still in the control panel and Eject Hardware is where it always
was. I wasn't aware of any other way you could do it, past or present.

------
forbes
I've been using Windows since 3.11 and when I first booted up Windows 8 I
clicked the Windows Explorer button in 'Metro' and was taken to the 'Classic'
desktop. No Start menu. It took me a good fifteen minutes of clicking around
to discover how to get back to Metro so I could launch any program.

In short it made a programmer feel like an idiot. I can't imagine how many
grandads are going to be furious with it if they upgrade. I have no idea why
removing the Start menu is a good idea.

I use OS X, Ubuntu (headless servers) and Windows 7 daily and I will
definitely wait until Windows 9 before I upgrade my Windows VM. They are
definitely sticking to the 'every second release sucks' cycle, like Star Trek.

~~~
bztzt
"I have no idea why removing the Start menu is a good idea."

Because it wasn't removed, it was changed and given a new presentation. The
alternative would have been to have two redundant start menus.

~~~
pbz
Even keeping the icon where the old one was which when clicked would take you
to the new "start menu" would have helped...

~~~
bztzt
That was the original design (seen in the first public preview).

~~~
objclxt
I think that's probably an indication that the whole "It's not a replacement
for the Start Menu, it _is_ the Start Menu" school of thought is a bit flawed.

~~~
suby
They've removed all visual cues that let you know what things do. You'd have
no way of knowing that clicking the bottom left takes you to metro if someone
or something doesn't tell you. If you click on the bottom right corner, you
minimize all windows -- There's a visual cue for this in windows 7. The button
still exists, but they've removed this visual cue in Windows 8, and I have no
idea why. I'm really baffled by it.

------
ams6110
It sounds like it's going to be the "Ribbon" debacle part deux.

The debut of the Ribbon UI in Office 2007 was the tipping point where I
started to look at other platforms and other productivity suites. It made no
sense at all to me to switch from literally decades of convention in the UI to
something that to this day leaves me frustrated every time I use it (probably
because it's not often).

The Ribbon is why I now use a Mac, and don't use Outlook or any Office
products.

Windows 8/Metro is going to be another such pivotal moment. It's so different,
I wonder how many people are going to say "wow, maybe I ought to look at a Mac
/ Linux if I have to relearn everything anyway."

~~~
AlexDanger
I really like the Ribbon. Just like everyone else I found it a pain to begin
with but it didnt take long to adjust and now I much prefer it to digging
through menus. The customisation options are also really great.

Is there any research or evidence to suggest that the Ribbon is a UI failure?
Office 2012 will use the Ribbon (restyled to look all metro-y).

~~~
makecheck
The Ribbon is too big. It often looks stupidly redundant (section titles
matching action button titles, like Find/Find and Exit/Exit). Icons are
overused; it shouldn't be a sin to let "only" a word be the label for
something. Mostly it looks like somebody emptied all the drawers onto the top
of my desk, forcing me to stare at a pile of junk all day long even though 90%
of the time all I need from the pile is my pen.

~~~
untog
"Is there any research or evidence to suggest that the Ribbon is a UI
failure?"

"The Ribbon is too big" is not research, and is anecdotal evidence at best. I,
too, would love to see some actual research into the Ribbon. Programmers and
the like hate it, but what about the "average Joe"?

~~~
AerieC
Here's some info I've found:

[http://www.wseas.us/e-library/conferences/2010/Faro/DNCOCO/D...](http://www.wseas.us/e-library/conferences/2010/Faro/DNCOCO/DNCOCO-25.pdf)
[http://www.exceluser.com/explore/surveys/ribbon/ribbon-
surve...](http://www.exceluser.com/explore/surveys/ribbon/ribbon-survey-
results.htm)

Personally, I'm a programmer and I have no problem with the ribbon interface.

------
josteink
I'm probably not the norm here, but after installing Windows 8, getting the
apps I care about pinned on the desktop taskbar I really, really like Windows
8.

It mostly feels like a cleaned up version of Windows 7, and it is much, much
snappier. Whatever you do happens _now_. Even when you wake it up from cold
hibernation it boots in less than 10 seconds. When it's only suspended it's
ready just like that. Instantly.

It's as close to instant as my laptop has ever been. All the animations are
silk smooth. Everything is fluid. This thing has been optimized to hell.

There can be no doubt that Windows 8 contains a multitude of technological
improvements. Unfortunately for Microsoft, they seem to insist on literally
taking the Windows out of Windows and forcing Metro on everyone. Even those
who don't want it.

Every now and then (like when connecting to a new network) you have (Metro)
infobars sliding in from the side and you can just tell that they come from a
_different_ world somehow. They don't belong in your desktop. And that makes
the entire experience feel a bit less coherent.

But all in all, I may be the exception, but I love Windows 8 so far. But to
Microsoft's dismay, I love it not because of Metro, but despite it.

They've done this before though. Remember the Ribbon? I used to hate it and
now I can't live without it. We'll see if Metro fares as good, although deep
down inside, I doubt it.

~~~
megaman821
I am with you. I am wondering when exactly these desktop power users will even
see Metro. Nearly all the apps I use day-to-day are pinned to my task-bar.

~~~
jinushaun
I haven't run the Consumer Preview yet, but in the Developer Preview, I kept
getting kicked out of Desktop and into Metro when requesting a lot tasks that
were initiated from the Desktop. The fullscreen transition was very jarring
when I expected to stay in Desktop.

------
aggronn
It sounds to me like he loves windows 8, but doesn't like the metro UI.
Literally, despite how he repeatedly said "Windows 8 is a totally failure",
his only complaint was with the ribbons. Everything else was about metro.

What does he even do in metro? Why does he keep returning to it? I've been
working in windows 8 for months, and I'm only on the start screen after my
computer boots up.

I can't help but wonder if he actually hates windows 8 as much as he sounds
like he does, or if he's using link bait for page views.

The only noteworthy comment he made was this one:

> The biggest problem with Windows 8 is that it wasn’t born out of a need or
> demand.

Too bad that has little to do with what the rest of the article is actually
about.

~~~
wvenable
If you're not using the start screen / Metro then isn't Windows 8 basically
just Windows 7? Is there any compelling reason to upgrade _at all_?

~~~
LinXitoW
One thing that is pretty useful is the multi-monitor support. You get a
taskbar for every monitor. Apart from that, though, Windows 8 has added
absolutely nothing to my experience.

~~~
wvenable
I already use DisplayFusion for multi-monitor taskbars in Windows 7.

------
prophetjohn
I can't imagine how typing the name of the app you want to open is a design
failure. I use Windows 7 and OS X Lion about equally and Alfred on OS X and
the Start search box on Windows 7 are the _only_ way that I find apps that I
want to open. It's largely the same way with finding files I want. It's my
preferred way navigate the operating system.

~~~
glesica
I agree with you. In fact before I discovered that feature on a Mac I was
absolutely baffled trying to figure out how people used Macs for real work.

On the other hand, I do a decent amount of desktop support in my job and I
have yet to find a user who knew it was possible to hit the Windows key and
start typing. There's a huge difference in usage patterns between the "power
users" and "everyone else".

~~~
Tyrant505
I too have used windows since v.3 and didn't know about this... One of the
reason's I love OSX is using quicksilver.

~~~
nikatwork
try Launchy for Windows, it's no Quicksilver but it does a good job.

------
nemo1618
I think more people would be fine with Windows 8 if people stopped telling
them that they should hate it.

Same for Vista; personally, I never encountered problems with
drivers/sluggishness that people told me were bound to happen. It wasn't a
spectacular upgrade from XP but I think most people avoided it because people
were very outspoken about how supposedly awful it was.

~~~
einhverfr
With Vista nobody told my wife she should hate it but the version that came
pre-installed on her laptop never worked right and so she told me to return
the laptop or put something on it that worked, so I installed Linux.

The problem with Windows 8 seems to be a general issue going on with UI design
generally. If you look at Unity and GNOME-3 for example, these also break
settled user expectations. It's like there is a rush to tell the users they
are stupid and don't know what a usable UI is. I don't get that.

------
FigBug
I don't know if Windows 8 is good or bad, but I do know the perception of it
is bad. Perception is reality. If Microsoft doesn't get control of Windows 8
image ASAP then it's going to bomb.

~~~
phene
When was the last time Microsoft had control of the image of any of its
products?

~~~
FigBug
It's been a long time, but now there is more viable competition as well as
less need to upgrade from older versions.

I think Microsoft would be far better off doing more frequent OS updates with
smaller changes.

~~~
Tyrant505
This is clearly a result of pressure from investors. Osx,iOS/android and
chrome/*nix are all rapidly advancing.

------
Karunamon
In my (limited) experience, ZDNet has always been very friendly of Microsoft.
The fact that even they are throwing around words like "disaster" doesn't bode
well in my mind.

------
thetabyte
It comes down to this: Microsoft doesn't care about the desktop market. They
don't have to. People will keep buying Windows. It doesn't matter how bad the
experience gets, the average consumer will still buy it, and the manufacturers
will still ship it. Not to mention the desktop market isn't growing. The
tablet market is a different story. This is a young market with lots of
potential and people are still making decisions. Steve Ballmer is a
businessman. He knows desktop windows can be as bad as he wants, and nothing
will change. But if Windows 8 works well on tablets, Microsoft might have a
new revenue stream. From a business perspective, the desktop Windows
experience does not matter, and so it will be designed for the tablet.

~~~
fpgeek
> He knows desktop windows can be as bad as he wants, and nothing will change.

If that's the plan, he's in for a rude shock. Given the Vista experience,
Microsoft has probably room for a mulligan. They'll bleed a few users, but it
will be a flesh wound. Most people who really care won't have trouble skipping
a release cycle like they did before (plenty of them haven't upgraded to
Windows 7 after all). But if two versions in a row suck, if there's no light
at the end of the tunnel... people will have plenty of places to go, and they
will.

------
redcircle
I'm excited about Metro. I've hated every one of my Windows experiences to
date. So I'm in a different boat from most people, who are probably upset
about the changes, which will require learning something new with dubious
benefits. But for me, I might actually find Windows useable for the first time
(where the payoff of using it exceeds the effort to use it).

~~~
Ygg2
Interesting, you might be an outlier. What UI experience did you enjoy then?

------
krschultz
It's hard for me to say much about how the UX feels without having used it.
However, one thing sticks out to me as a concrete example of Microsoft's
failings.

"Another annoyance with the Metro Start Screen is that all roads lead to it.
Almost everything you do ends up throwing you into the Start Screen. I find it
utterly crazy that I can go from clicking on a tile on the Start Screen and
then be unceremoniously dumped into things like a Classic Control Panel applet
or Windows Explorer. Then, to do the next thing, you’re back to the Start
Screen again."

Microsoft effectively has unlimited resources (cash and people). There is no
excuse for not updating all of the applications to match the new UI toolkit.

This sounds exactly like happened with Vista. They updated the OS, but not the
1st party applications. Windows 7 updated many of them (Paint, Movie Maker,
etc), but even then not 100%. I guess the issue was that the 'Ribbon UI' was
an Office team invention, not a Windows team invention, but as a user I don't
really care about the office politics behind it.

Now they're adding a Metro layer and they made the same mistake? It makes the
OS so inconsistent. They can't do much about it for 3rd party apps, but the
1st party apps should be consistent. The cost of rewriting the presentation
layer across all of those utilities has to be a small amount compared to the
overall budget.

------
stefanve
I hope MS will up there release schedule just like Apple and Ubuntu. When OSX
first landed most people didn't like it at all. But every year it was a bit
better and at least since 10.4 one of the best if not the best desktop OS.
Same thing go's for Ubuntu, the first incarnation of Unity was not good . But
12.04 is a really usable OS and for me (since I don't use OSX specific
software) perfectly fine replacement for OSX. I'm really excited to see where
they are going with it. So if MS is serious about there new desktop they
should release a new version at least once a year. Perhaps they will need a
LTS strategy for the Enterprise starting with windows 7. So by the time
windows 8.4 comes a long Metro is matured and most workers will know how to
use is.

------
cageface
_I just can’t shake the feeling that Windows 8 would be better off as two
separate operating systems._

Bingo. Apple succeeded in mobile because they were forced to break entirely
new ground. Frankensteining Metro and the old desktop UIs together makes about
as much sense as WIMPing the XBox.

~~~
freehunter
The desktop is a fallback. Same as 16-bit mode, low graphics mode, XP mode, or
the Classic Mac emulator in early versions of OSX. It's not going to be in
Windows RT, and it won't be in Windows 9.

Microsoft can't just up and cut all support for programs designed for the
previous versions of their OS.

~~~
cageface
_Microsoft can't just up and cut all support for programs designed for the
previous versions of their OS._

I'd go further: they should leave Windows pretty much as it is for the
foreseeable future and treat mobile like the separate market that it is.

They shouldn't even _think_ about deprecating the Windows WIMP UI until
they've got something inarguably better for the average desktop/laptop user.
Not even Apple is that reckless.

~~~
freehunter
The thing is, I'm not sure that mobile is a separate market anymore. How many
corporations are doing a BYOD initiative? Personally at the company I work
for, all the salesmen (a few thousand) are getting tablets instead of laptops
for the next refresh. It just makes sense. Likewise, instead of handing out
corporate laptops, they'll be giving employees a stipend to buy whatever
device they want as long as it fits their needs.

When corporations (even IBM) start adopting bring-your-own-device and that
includes mobile, mobile is no longer a separate market. It's time for mobile
to evolve, something it hasn't done since 2007.

------
nchlswu
OS X's yearly release cycle highlights a key problem that Windows 8
highlights. Making changes that are anything more than miniscule can happen
over a long period of time that users can adapt to.

Microsoft is stuck trying to cater to two fundamentally different interaction
paradigms in one gigantic release, which is very difficult.

I think if anything, the author's article highlights some common perceptions
many consumers will hold with Windows 8. While I haven't used Win8, a lot of
the authors complaints seem like he wasn't willing to embrace something new
and wasn't willing to learn. They don't seem like design failures per se; but
if 8 wasn't designed well enough to appease these types of criticism, then I
guess it is a design failure

------
rlu
Once the new form factors come out I think Windows 8 will do very, very well.

But we'll see!

------
stcredzero
_Windows 8 wasn’t born out of a need or demand; it was born out of a desire on
Microsoft’s part to exert its will on the PC industry and decide to shape it
in a direction — touch and tablets — that allows it to compete against, and
remain relevant in the face of Apple’s iPad._

Early relational DB pioneer Michael Stonebraker once said: A company produces
software architecture that resembles its org chart.

Maybe this is indicative on how well Microsoft can execute at this point.
(Though, the overall trend seems positive for them.)

~~~
gruseom
That's Conway's Law. <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conway%27s_law>

------
zvrba
Who the hell reads these "professional" reviews? And why aren't people able to
make their own opinion? It must be a dream-job (for some at least), get paid
for playing prohpet and writing shit about other's (yet unfinished) products.

Personally, I bought my laptop a few years ago with XP preinstalled and Vista
CDs alongside. I installed Vista out of curiosity, mostly _because_ people
almost unanimously said it was crap, and, wouldn't you believe it, I _liked
it_. I got a rock-solid, capable OS that was way ahead of the clunkiness that
I remembered from the XP days and way better than crappines I was starting to
experience with Linux.

So a message to all you schadenfreude-review writers: go to f*ing hell.

------
debacle
I disagree completely. I tried the RC a few months ago, and it was abhorrent,
but the image from just a few weeks ago was very usable.

I somewhat dislike the 'chrome' of the UI (I think it's hard to determine what
is a button and what is just flair), but I've been running in 'Windows
Classic' mode since XP so I may be an outlier.

They made that tile menu more transparent, to the point where you don't have
to ever see it again if you don't want to, and many of the components that
were Vista-y in the older RC have been polished for the newer image.

I'm not going to go out of my way to upgrade to Windows 8 like I did for
Windows 7, but I also wont be downgrading to Windows 7 like I did with Vista
(to XP).

------
damian2000
_There’s a palpable fear that Windows 8 will stumble out of the door._

If push comes to shove, you'd think MS could easily make the Windows 7 desktop
the "default" look and feel, and let you turn on the Win 8 look via a setting.
But then again, isn't the whole Windows 7 desktop just one click away anyway?
This whole article seems like its vastly exaggerating the issue.

There's a good article here comparing Win8 to Apple's first release of OS X
(with its built in MacOS 9 classic mode) ...
[http://www.osnews.com/story/25691/Windows_8_s_desktop_mode_M...](http://www.osnews.com/story/25691/Windows_8_s_desktop_mode_Microsoft_s_Classic_)

------
flebber
Clearly the author is to old in body or mind or both. Yes I agree us old folk
get stuck in our ways. But it's my kids that are going to love it, they
already try and touch the monitor and TV like it was a smartphone, my 6 year
old operates an iPhone perfectly.

Yes an article about old people worried about new ways isn't surprising at all
heard the same tired tunes with regards unity which after a few release is
starting to humm and now feels intuitive.

You can wait for windows9 all you like it will just be a more refined 8.

------
jakeonthemove
I really hope they let users disable Metro UI - while it seemed pretty at
first, having to switch to a full screen Start Menu 5-10 times to open all the
programs I need is a bit tiring - the old Start Menu was much more
inconspicuous. There are plenty of things to love about 8, but Metro just
screws everything up, it seems.

------
amatheus
The thing I keep thinking when I hear about windows 8 is: how should a new
windows application be developed? I think it's very confusing. If I were to
start an application now, would I do it for desktop or windows RT? If I create
for desktop then it will look bad with windows 8, with all the start screen
swapping.

------
joelthelion
>And if nothing else, I want to like Windows 8 because I know that I’ll be
spending a lot of time using it over the coming years.

That's a pretty stupid thing to say. If you don't like windows, there are
plenty of alternatives, except maybe for very nichy work.

~~~
lmm
Not for those of us with conventional jobs.

------
einhverfr
I kept reading this and going "wow, he's describing GNOME 3!"

------
Mordor
Well, this is just another Visa - hardly a huge problem while Windows 7 is
still available. Just wait for Windows 9.

------
anaheim
Dammit, this is going to lead to a whole new set of questions from confused
family members.

"How do I get to Start > Programs > [Some app which was made for usage on
Windows XP]? I can't find the Start button, this new Windows is no good.
_grumble_ "

~~~
kristofferR
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v4boTbv9_nU>

~~~
peterkelly
This video is truly amazing

~~~
stdgy
There's nothing particularly amazing about watching a man try to navigate a
system he hasn't been taught how to navigate. Most of these kinds of
experiments tend to end the same way, unless the system includes metaphors the
users are already well accustomed to using.

I don't think there's any question Microsoft will include an extensive
tutorial in Windows 8's final release. If they don't, we can safely laugh at
them. As it is, though, this video is rubbish. I could make a similar video
filming my Grandmother trying to use Windows 7(She only knows how to use a
specific type of Web TV, sans mouse). I guarantee you we'll see similar
results.

Windows has a massive install base. One of Microsoft's most important tasks
will be to train their current users to make the transition to this new UI.
It's not a small feat. But this video completely sidesteps the most important
part in the process, and instead asks a man to use a novel, manufactured
system with nothing but his natural inclinations. On those grounds, I think he
does quite well. But the video is rubbish.

~~~
peterkelly
There's another video at <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XeeOkHjV7nM> where he
is asked to use a mac for the first time in his life. The guy has apparently
used XP for many years and is a die-hard windows fan. Watch how quickly he is
able to pick it up (with zero instruction) in comparison to Win8.

The Win8 start screen isn't hard to get to - _if_ you know how. I'll have no
trouble with it, you'll have no trouble with it, and anyone who is given a
tutorial or basic training will have no trouble with it.

But I'll bet there's going to be millions of users who find themselves in the
same situation as the guy in the video, and it's going to be a nightmare for
any company who tries to deploy this to all their users.

For me the big take-away is this:

Important user interface elements should be visible on screen.

~~~
stdgy
I'm troubled by the invisible UI stuff, including the hot corners. And I'm
worried because knowledge of these features is required to operate the system
at a basic level. That's kind of frightening. Not insurmountable, but
frightening.

I think OSX's interface elements are more approachable than these hidden
elements, given his(and most people's) prior experience. If you've used
Windows, you're not going to be a stranger to drop down menus or desktop like
icons (a la the dock).

And I agree that the invisible user interface elements will be a nightmare for
IT people around the world. But to be frank, I don't want to restrict change
to things that make IT folks happy ;) (Of course, I'm not a company worth a
few hundred billion dollars whose livelihood depends on enterprise
acceptance...)

I'm interested in seeing how long it will take for these 'new' UI concepts,
where screen edges and corners are elements to be touched and modified, to
sink into the general consciousness. It seems to have sunk into the OSX world
rather quickly. Now it's time to see how the other 90% cope with it.

------
donutdan4114
agreed

