
Rapid recovery from major depression using magnesium treatment (2006) - amelius
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16542786
======
bad_alloc
A quick search on Google Scholar reveals more studies confirming this: [1] [2]
[3]. It might be worth trying out, since it seems to be pretty hard to
overdose on magnesium unless you have kidney failure. [4]

[1]
[http://ijp.sagepub.com/content/19/1/57.short](http://ijp.sagepub.com/content/19/1/57.short)

[2]
[https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Betina_Elfving/publicat...](https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Betina_Elfving/publication/272513367_Dietary_magnesium_deficiency_alters_gut_microbiota_and_leads_to_depressive-
like_behaviour/links/560a742208ae1396914bd253.pdf)

[3]
[https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Claudia_Schmuckermair/p...](https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Claudia_Schmuckermair/publication/262149492_Dietary_magnesium_restriction_reduces_amygdala-
hypothalamic_GluN1_receptor_complex_levels_in_mice/links/5405d27e0cf2bba34c1db295.pdf)

[4]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypermagnesemia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypermagnesemia)

~~~
sbierwagen
1 is behind a paywall, so you can't see how many patients were in the study or
what the effect size was. 2 and 3 were in mice.

Mice are useful model organisms for many things, but it is very important to
remember they are _not humans_. For one, they have wildly different
inflammation responses,
([http://blogs.sciencemag.org/pipeline/archives/2013/02/13/mou...](http://blogs.sciencemag.org/pipeline/archives/2013/02/13/mouse_models_of_inflammation_are_basically_worthless_now_we_know)
) and inflammation is yet another thing that seems to influence mental
illness.

~~~
photoJ
From Journal of Immunology with impact factor 4.92

Note the following quotes are take from an article that's "aim is to sound a
word of caution" about the use of mice as a substitute for human studies. Even
they note how well mice have served and will continue to serve as a model for
human biology.

"Mice are the mainstay of in vivo immunological experimentation and in many
respects they mirror human biology remarkably well."

"In this review our aim is not to suggest that the mouse is an invalid model
system for human biology. Clearly, with so many paradigms that translate well
between the species, and with the relative ease with which mice can now be
genetically manipulated, mouse models will continue to provide important
information for many years to come. "

[http://www.jimmunol.org/content/172/5/2731.full](http://www.jimmunol.org/content/172/5/2731.full)

~~~
sbierwagen
Yes, and that is indeed the journal of _immunology_ , which is speaking of
mice in a primarily immunological context. One might easily guess that mice
are less useful model organisms in neurology.

------
visarga
I think getting the news out about this research could be very important as
many people could seek more heavy handed treatment for tiredness, depression
and anxiety, not knowing the cause was a simple mineral deficiency.

I used to feel tired all the time, with permanent pain in the neck and the
retinas, even though I slept 7 hours a night. After I started taking
magnesium, I felt 15 years younger. I could finally get a good night's sleep
and my energy recovered. There were also other effects: my sex drive
increased, dandruff almost disappeared and my bowel movements have improved.

Another useful mineral for me was Calcium. I got rid of a nagging back pain
that affected me for the last 10 years. Other treatments such as massage and
exercise had no effect.

It feels like doctors had no idea to check for these two minerals in my case.
Even though I visited various specialists and went to a sleep lab to test my
brain waves, they had no useful recommendations. Could it be true that doctors
have no idea about magnesium and calcium?

~~~
6stringmerc
Regarding your question at the end - I firmly believe that doctors and day-to-
day medical professionals traditionally despise discussions regarding
supplementation. This his extremely anecdotal of course, but there seems to be
some kind of 'wall' \- probably on purpose - where medical professionals
believe that only the knowledge on the inside of the wall has merit. This can
be seen in the marketing/'re-evaluation' of opiates like Oxycontin, where once
the establishment type leadership said it was okay, a lot of doctors started
writing up scripts with this encouragement, and now the US is in the grips of
a horrible addiction crisis.

It's not that medical professionals don't appreciate healthy living - it's
that I frankly don't believe they're trained to promote healthy living.
Rather, they treat symptoms. Some things are easier to figure out than others,
and anything outside of the 'wall' is more often than not viewed in a negative
light.

~~~
carbocation
It's really just that most nutritional supplements have either low-quality
supporting data or contradictory data. The hype surrounding the field of
nutrition is not matched by its benefits.

This is not to say that there is no future for it. Rather, it is to say that
there is _a huge_ future for it, because at present the field has little to
offer backed by strong evidence.

~~~
petra
Even if there's not enough data, the risk of supplements is very low ,
especially compared to the risk of pharmaceuticals.So why not try ?

And the reason they don't have as much high-quality proof as
pharmaceutical(clinical trials), is just because of monetary incentives,
nothing more.

~~~
carbocation
When we talk about pharmaceuticals, we talk about financial toxicity.
Americans spend over $10 billion on nutritional supplements annually [1], most
of which have very poor supporting evidence. Should people be able to spend
their money how they see fit? Sure. Are they getting utility from it? Not the
utility they're hoping for.

1 =
[https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2015/02/04/ameri...](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2015/02/04/americans-
are-ignoring-the-science-and-spending-billions-on-dietary-supplements/)

~~~
teslabox
When we talk about healthcare, we talk about financial toxicity. Americans
spent $3 trillion on healthcare in 2014 [1], much of which had very poor
outcomes. Should the healthcare system get a defacto blank check to charge
insurance companies as much as they want? Sure. Are the patients getting
utility from it? Not the utility they're hoping for.

1 = [https://www.cms.gov/research-statistics-data-and-
systems/sta...](https://www.cms.gov/research-statistics-data-and-
systems/statistics-trends-and-
reports/nationalhealthexpenddata/downloads/highlights.pdf)

(lol, sorry. $10 billion on supplements is a drop in the bucket.)

------
a_c_s
This is from 2006: surely by now there is more evidence to support/reject this
hypothesis?

~~~
dang
Thanks, we added the year.

------
chriskanan
Here is a review article on using magnesium to treat depression:
[http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0306987709...](http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0306987709007300)

It claims that magnesium supplementation is as effective as anti-depressants.

~~~
vzip
The caveat is that anti-depressants aren't any better than placebo for typical
cases of depression:
[http://jama.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=185157](http://jama.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=185157)

~~~
amelius
This article is about major depressions, not typical cases.

------
6stringmerc
I recall the big splash that came with the marketing of ZMA as a supplement[1]
for testosterone production quite a while ago. It was something OTC that I
tried on several occasions and found to have limited merit. Unlike some other
products, I didn't feel the ZMA effects in muscles per se, but noticed
significantly deeper (better?) sleep and recovery. If ZMA was assisting in
recovery and sleep more than anything, then I could definitely buy into the
notion magnesium has quite a few physical and mental upsides as a supplement
(with further research!).

[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ZMA_%28supplement%29](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ZMA_%28supplement%29)

------
j_s
What is the recommended procedure to be tested for vitamin/mineral/whatever
(vitamin D = steroid?) deficiencies... is it best to head to a random doctor
to get blood drawn?

It seems like a good idea to get levels checked regularly - like an annual
physical! If there's reliable, low-cost way of getting everything or at least
everything important checked I would love to hear about it.

~~~
klodolph
That's part of my yearly(ish) physical. They always tell me I have a vitamin D
deficiency, so I take supplements for a few months, forget about it, and I'm
deficient again by the next physical.

~~~
FreeFull
The most efficient way of getting vitamin D would be from sunshine.

~~~
exhilaration
Not in winter if you live in northern latitudes:

"If you live north of Atlanta (ahem, Boston), it’s impossible to produce
vitamin D from the sun in the winter, because the sun ray’s never get high
enough in the sky for the ultraviolet B rays (UVB) to penetrate the
atmosphere. This can be a problem for most of us that aren’t lucky enough to
have winter homes near the Equator."

source:
[http://www.bostonmagazine.com/health/blog/2013/01/11/vitamin...](http://www.bostonmagazine.com/health/blog/2013/01/11/vitamin-
d-sun-winter/)

~~~
FreeFull
This is true. Having a lamp that produces UVB radiation could help (with
appropriate use and eye protection)

------
photoJ
Anecdotal Experience follows: The combination of coffee and exercise was
leaving me truly exhausted. I was drinking water but still had signs of
dehydration(foggy, listless etc).

Started using rehydration packets EMERGEN-C ELECTRO MIX and instantly(15 min)
felt distinctly better than after a liter of straight water. Given the rest of
my diet, magnesium was the main probable culprit. I switched to SLOW-MAG and
it reduced earlier symptoms. (in theory this was controlling for other
electrolytes). My recommendation is to try the Packets first as they effect is
within 15 min, although it might take two if you're really dehydrated.

~~~
eli
How can you know this isn't the placebo effect?

~~~
photoJ
Not sure if your response is rhetorical or not.

1\. I cannot.

2\. I noted that in the first line that this was anecdotal. The implication
being that other the comments should be considered just as highly and I offer
nothing beyond what is commonly accessible on the web in terms of research,
with N=1 additional observations.

3\. Despite not being a double blind study(with blood work to corroborate with
ground truth, what could in fact be a psychosomatic condition), I varied my
choice of supplements considerably and noted those lacking in magnesium
provided little benefit.

4\. My experience fits what is known in the literature. To quote Carl
Sagan,'Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.' but in our case,
its effectively an application of occam's razor.

5\. Finally, I present what I think is the best way for other people to test
if my effect was a placebo effect. The slow absorption isn't nearly as
dramatic as the instant with a litter of water. Try it yourself if you think
its the case, (not that that will remove the placebo possibility).

------
photoJ
From Neuropharmacology, which has an impact factor of 5.1.

"Furthermore, a causal relationship between Mg2+ and anxiety is suggested in
mice with low plasma Mg2+ levels which display increased anxiety- and/or
depression-related behaviour..."

[http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3198864/](http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3198864/)

~~~
photoJ
At the very bottom I've listed other resources, but they've been down voted...
:(

------
RankingMember
The hilariously small sample size of this article and the lack of peer review
aside, if you want to try this just for the hell of it, be sure to _not_ buy a
bunch of magnesium oxide (the cheap stuff), as the bio-availability is
terrible (~4%).

Instead, buy chelated magnesium, something like this:
[http://amzn.com/B000BD0RT0](http://amzn.com/B000BD0RT0)

------
jhartmann
This link discusses the paper in question:
[https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/evolutionary-
psychiatry...](https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/evolutionary-
psychiatry/201106/magnesium-and-the-brain-the-original-chill-pill)

------
arprocter
My SO used to get regular migraines, but since taking daily magnesium they've
completely stopped

~~~
petra
For those seeking research about magnesium and migraine, it's recommended here
for prevention of migraine:

[http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26252585](http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26252585)

------
amelius
In this study, N=small, but nevertheless, I think it is a very interesting
article. Because the effects are so rapid, and magnesium supplementation is in
general harmless, it is imho definitely a good idea to see if a magnesium
deficiency is the cause of the disorder. Please take note that not all
magnesium supplements are equal.

~~~
Nicksil
> Please take note that not all magnesium supplements are equal.

Could you elaborate on this, please? Would like to know more.

~~~
xlm1717
From some admittedly not very scientific research into this, it seems that
different forms of magnesium are absorbed differently by the body. It is
claimed that magnesium oxide is poorly absorbed by the body and can lead to
more side effects than other forms of magnesium. Magnesium citrate is supposed
to be better, but the best forms are supposed to be chelated magnesium
compounds. Chelated magnesium is supposed to be most easily absorbed by the
body and best tolerated in terms of side effects.

From personal experience, I will say that I feel better after taking chelated
magnesium vs magnesium citrate. The specific chelated magnesium compound I
take is magnesium glycinate/lysinate. It has helped ease symptoms of anxiety.
I had previously taken magnesium citrate, which ended up making me feel
nauseous.

A lot of the sites that come up in google are alternative health sites
(Mercola, etc.). Here are two links that may be more reliable:

[http://www.webmd.com/vitamins-
supplements/ingredientmono-998...](http://www.webmd.com/vitamins-
supplements/ingredientmono-998-magnesium.aspx?activeingredientid=998)

[http://www.drugs.com/mtm/chelated-
magnesium.html](http://www.drugs.com/mtm/chelated-magnesium.html)

Also, here is a PDF of a class action lawsuit filed against a manufacturer
accused of putting magnesium oxide in their chelated magnesium to cut costs.
Has a lot of information on the purported benefits of magnesium and on how the
magnesium industry is run:

[https://www.truthinadvertising.org/wp-
content/uploads/2014/0...](https://www.truthinadvertising.org/wp-
content/uploads/2014/04/Hoffman-v.-Bluebonnet-Nutrition-Corp.-complaint-.pdf)

~~~
amelius
Very interesting. Can you recommend a specific brand?

By the way, I have noticed that flaxseed oil (1-2 tablespoons/day on some
bread) also helps ease anxiety in my case. I have no clue about the mechanism
behind it, but I just wanted to mention it.

~~~
stevedonovan
Flaxseed oil is a good source of an omega 3 essential fatty acid, ALA.
Generally most people don't get nearly enough omega 3 - the other source is
oily fish. Our nervous system is particularly dependent on it.

------
NoGravitas
Appears that the author of this paper is a quack hawking magnesium and zinc
miracle cures[0].

[0]:
[http://www.ibiblio.org/london/herbs/forums/alt.folklore.herb...](http://www.ibiblio.org/london/herbs/forums/alt.folklore.herbs/msg00123.html)

------
ceedan
I found this related article on chelated minerals as a mood stabilizer. Others
might find this interesting, too.

[http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11780873](http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11780873)

BACKGROUND: To determine in open trials the therapeutic benefit of a
nutritional supplement for bipolar disorder.

METHOD: The sample consisted of 11 patients with DSM-IV-diagnosed bipolar
disorder aged 19 to 46 years, who were taking a mean of 2.7 psychotropic
medications each at study entry. Three additional patients dropped out
prematurely. The intervention is a broad-based nutritional supplement of
dietary nutrients, primarily chelated trace minerals and vitamins,
administered in high doses. At study entry and periodically thereafter,
patients were assessed with the Hamilton Rating Scale for Depression (HAM-D),
the Brief Psychiatric Rating Scale (BPRS), and the Young Mania Rating Scale
(YMRS).

RESULTS: For those who completed the minimum 6-month open trial, symptom
reduction ranged from 55% to 66% on the outcome measures; need for
psychotropic medications decreased by more than 50%. Paired t tests revealed
treatment benefit on all measures for patients completing the trial: HAM-D
mean score at entry = 19.0, mean score at last visit = 5.4, t = 5.59, df = 9,
p < 01; BPRS mean score at entry = 35.3, mean score at last visit = 7.4, t =
2.57, df = 9, p <.05; YMRS mean score at entry = 15.1, mean score at last
visit = 6.0, t = 4.11, df = 9, p < .01. The effect size for the intervention
was large (> .80) for each measure. The number of psychotropic medications
decreased significantly to a mean +/\- SD of 1.0+/-1.1 (t = 3.54, df = 10, p <
.01). In some cases, the supplement replaced psychotropic medications and the
patients remained well. The only reported side effect (i.e., nausea) was
infrequent, minor, and transitory.

CONCLUSION: Some cases of bipolar illness may be ameliorated by nutritional
supplementation. A randomized, placebo-controlled trial in adults with bipolar
I disorder is currently underway, as well as open trials in children.

~~~
ceedan
I'm not sure how reputable the journal is that this was published to, and not
experienced in determining that.

------
photoJ
NIH points out that "Early signs of magnesium deficiency include loss of
appetite, nausea, vomiting, fatigue, and weakness."

And "An analysis of data from the National Health and Nutrition Examination
Survey (NHANES) of 2005–2006 found that a majority of Americans of all ages
ingest less magnesium from food than their respective EARs"

Link: [https://ods.od.nih.gov/factsheets/Magnesium-
HealthProfession...](https://ods.od.nih.gov/factsheets/Magnesium-
HealthProfessional/#h5)

~~~
ashark
If Cedars-Sinai's list of magnesium levels in foods[1] is accurate, it seems
to me that it'd be kind of hard _not_ to be deficient a majority of days
(sources I'm seeing say you need between 300-400mg/day). Add in trying to get
enough of all the other things you're supposed to get such-and-such mg/day of
_and_ trying to save time/money by not having to cook with 100 different
ingredients every week[2] and you're really in trouble if you want to
_consistently_ get enough of all this stuff solely from food sources.

[1] (PDF WARNING!) [https://www.cedars-sinai.edu/Patients/Programs-and-
Services/...](https://www.cedars-sinai.edu/Patients/Programs-and-
Services/Documents/CP0403MagnesiumRichFoods.pdf)

[2] It seems that comprehensively nutritious eating is firmly at odds with the
typical Internet advice: "you guys are so wrong about how much it costs and
how much time it takes to cook at home, just do what I do and make a big pot
of rice & beans on Sunday then eat leftovers all week, takes an hour and costs
me like $2/day"

------
evmar
It bums me out that HN readers just read and respond to the headline without
analyzing the actual content.

My immediate reaction to medical headlines is always to wonder "why should I
believe this"? In this particular case the paper tests _four_ people, one of
whom is described as only "moderately depressed" and who lost his "craving for
smoking, dipping, cocaine and alcohol" with the treatment. I am very skeptical
of this magical cure.

(From there, I might also add that the publishing info itself is pretty
sketchy (author appears to be some random dude self-publishing, paper cites
his own website a lot), but it's a bit ad hominem to rely on this. It's also
entirely possible that this hypothesis is correct but I don't think this paper
is a good first step on proving that.)

~~~
Balgair
Here here.

As it is a snow day, I can't get the other articles as well or do a good
search (Fallout4 for me, oh shucks).

That said, just because there are only 4 people in a study does not mean that
it is a bad article. I agree that the guy is maybe a quack, but that can be
said of a lot of scientists too. Truth has a different metric than the
opinions of people. That there is only 4 subjects is not all that off in
biology, especially in humans. For instance, in the hearing pathway, there is
a single layer of neurons that helps mediate the location of low frequency
noises in mammals. The Nature Letter that revealed this was done on 4 cells
total. The difficulty of the experiment was extreme. Sectioning brains at
essentially random, probing neurons perfectly from the input and output
neurons to those special neurons, all at body temperature, and in mature
animals, it took that team 10 years for 4 neurons. ALL of them now are bakers
in Germany; they quit science.

So, though the guy may be a quack, and though this experiment may not be as
hard, it does not mean he is necessarily wrong.

~~~
bkmartin
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Any depression study with
only 4 people is not extraordinary considering the pervasiveness of the issue
in society.

------
honua
"..using this one simple trick"

