
India turned off mobile internet for 63M citizens amid protests in Ahmedabad - ankurpatel
http://thenextweb.com/in/2015/08/26/india-just-turned-off-mobile-internet-for-67-million-citizens-amid-protests-in-ahmedabad?
======
Indyan
I'm in two minds regarding this. This reminds me of the clampdown in many of
the middle-eastern countries during the Arab spring. On Principle I don't
believe that the state should be allowed to place such restrictions on
civilian freedom. However, I can't deny that the measures worked. The protest
had become extremely violent and needed to be defused instantly. This measure
possibly saved lives.

~~~
mtgx
You may not always want peace. Could Americans have "peacefully" convinced the
Brits to turn back and leave them alone?

~~~
flangloria
Oh please. This isn't the same. What these guys were trying to do, was to
bully the state into placing their community above the rest.

~~~
meric
Could the revolt have been defused by Britain granting more voting power to
American colonial authorities? Or would they continue to demand placing their
community above the rest by being completely autonomous?

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prateek_mir
Not a freedom of speech issue. whatsapp messages spread quite virally. A large
number of users of such services who have got access to mobile internet quite
recently are susceptible to take a spam/hoax message as an authentic piece of
information, specially the ones which can directly affect the person. Also,
you need to keep in mind that services like whatsapp have become a significant
source of information for many people.

A large number of such messages that I have come across are photoshopped
images, mix it with the ease of sending bulk messages and you get an explosive
mixture.

One way to tackle such situation will be, IMO, to make bulk messaging an
expensive (computationally) operation, something of the nature of HashCash.

~~~
ypcx
No, no government should ever be able to do this. Why? Because when you track
it down to the person getting the switch flipped, it is always someone with an
interest not serving the whole, a.k.a. private interest. And the government
should serve the whole, otherwise it is oppressing a part.

And in regards to your argument — the longer you keep the immune system from
exposure to a threat — the longer you allow the threat to evolve and become
even more dangerous. Let the people learn what is hoax and fake. Yes, they are
perfectly able to do that.

~~~
Sven7
The threat is a large mass of illiterate people being riled up by inflammatory
rumors they see on their phone. They aren't the kind of people who know what
the words "fact check" means.

Add to that a semi-educated police force and you end up with 3 people dead and
a whole bunch of public infrastructure burning.

If you are in government, you don't really have the option to call the
protesters in to have a nuanced debate.

~~~
selimthegrim
I look forward to Gujarat experiencing, like Punjab, the tender mercies of
AFSPA (sarcastic, I don't wish that law upon anyone)

------
pjc50
It's amazing how many people on this thread are keen to go for the easy,
rights-restricting solution (just turn off the internet locally for a bit!)
rather than the harder question: why are people primed to riot? Like Ferguson,
it's usually a combination of longstanding grievance and trigger event.

~~~
Manishearth
> it's usually a combination of longstanding grievance and trigger event

That's because riots and such protests are rare in the US; and Ferguson
brought _new_ issues to light, not the same old issues.

That's not the case in India. The concept of a "bandh" (close the city and
shops, if your shop doesn't comply, you might get beaten up by party thugs) is
a common one used by political parties for various reasons. If someone told me
that there was a bandh in Mumbai tomorrow, I'd not be surprised, not even
really annoyed. One gets used to this stuff.

Riots are a few steps above this, but aren't too uncommon either. Many of them
have legit motivations. India is a country of many, many communities and many,
many views and it's common for some community to feel aggrieved by something;
often rightly so.

This one, I don't think it has a legit motivation either, but I'm not so sure.
The reservation system is a rather broken one -- not that I'm saying it should
be removed (affirmative action can be quite effective) -- but that it could be
improved quite a bit, checking against income and with more safety nets for
students/etc who are boosted by this but don't do well. This case seems to be
one of people from a non-suppressed community clamoring for reservation,
motivated by other non-suppressed communities who got reservation due to a
political move (ICBW here).

Thing is, fixing the overall reservation system is a really, really hard
problem in practice. There's a lot of politics involved -- anything perceived
to weaken it will severely affect your image, and besides, most of these laws
need a majority of folks from the relevant minority group to approve them, and
due to the way folks vote here, politicians from a minority group depend on
that minority group for votes, and if they were portrayed as weakening the
reservation system, their political career would be doomed. So the reservation
system is something that can only monotonically get worse. Most folks have
resigned themselves to this fact.

On the other hand, in Ferguson, the issue is something which the minority
group was very aware of, but not the majority group. Many people are _now_
realizing that African Americans look at the police very differently due to
the way the police treats them. There's a lot of new information in the
system, and there are many proposed solutions, most of which do not qualify as
political suicide. It's not the case here, everyone already knows about the
issues here, and most if not all solutions are political suicide.

~~~
cma
> checking against income

Schools do that, and it heavily favors whites. (alumni/donor preference)

Maybe not exactly what you were suggesting

~~~
Manishearth
I meant the other way around. If you are using affirmative action to benefit
minorities[1], try not to benefit folks who are already well off (for a
reasonably high definition of "well off"). This issue would be a _lot_ less
contentious then. I don't know the stats on this, but anecdotally speaking
(this also seems to be a commonly held belief), the majority of the folks who
benefit from these things are much, much better off than many of the folks who
don't benefit. (Note that the total reservation of seats is around 50% in most
places, often more).

Of course, it's not as easy as simply filtering by income by setting a
threshhold. In some cases you may want a income-agnostic reservation, too, to
prevent caste-based discrimination (not so common in cities, but it still
exists), in cases where there are strong human elements in the selection
process (i.e. it's not just based on the results of a test, but where there
are people in the pipeline who may discriminate). This is something that may
need to be handled in a nuanced way.

(Not that I'm saying that reservation is the only solution, just saying that
if we want to stay within the confines of this system, it can be improved a
lot)

[1] FWIW, in India, _everyone_ is technically a minority, though of course not
all minorities have been downtrodden. In this specific case a possibly-non-
downtrodden (as far as public opinion goes, this group is in general quite
well off) minority is requesting special treatment, which is receiving
opposition.

------
arsalanb
This is very common in India, for the government to take bizarre actions and
then retreat shamefully when they figure they're exposed. The porn ban is just
one example — for those of you who don't follow, the Indian government tried
to ban porn and did it, albeit half-heartedly, and then were forced to undo
and lift the ban.

Even the story in reference here isn't an uncommon sight. In Jammu & Kashmir
(A state which has a disputed status, yet is claimed to be an "integral part"
of India by the ruling political party) it is very common for the government
to shut down mobile internet and all mobile facilities on 14th and 15t h
August (Which are the countries independence day)

Heck they had even banned text messaging here until 2013. Some "freedom of
speech", eh?

~~~
arsalanb
Update — I expected a lot of downvotes, and I have not been disappointed! :D

"You cannot change the truth, but the truth can change you"

~~~
selimthegrim
Look, as a Pakistani descent person, I am sympathetic to you, but this issue
of the Pandits is a bleeding wound on international credibility that pretty
much destroys any chance of Kashmir seceding. Maybe you were around in 1989,
what the hell was going on? Why did you allow your Hindu neighbors to be
driven out? All the expatriate Muslim Kashmiris start calling me a boot
licking traitor when I ask this (and all the Pannu Kashmir people look like
they are about to kill me)

~~~
arsalanb
So you're saying, since the Hindu neighbors felt unsafe and left it is
justified to oppress the people who stayed?

~~~
selimthegrim
No, of course not, but is the only way they're going to feel safe by
oppressing you? When these masjids broadcast threats why were they allowed to
be used as an arena in the conflict? Why give the Indian Army an excuse to
turn those into a battleground too ( a la Golden Temple)

~~~
arsalanb
There are never threats broadcasted from mosques here.

~~~
selimthegrim
No, I know that, but there were in 1989 (hence the "were allowed" as opposed
to "are allowed")

------
nowarninglabel
This is something that speaks to the need for rumor dispelling engines
[http://www.unahakika.org/](http://www.unahakika.org/)

Instead of cutting off information it should be directed and rumors dispelled
through disseminating the truth.

------
jor-el
In first look it doesn't speak well of a democratic country. But loads of
false information is spread using SMS, other messaging services (like watsapp)
and social platforms. If lives can be saved and bring back things to normal by
doing so, then it is very much justified. The people who are being killed or
facing inconvenience because of the protests are also citizen of the same
democracy. Right to live is more important than right to have internet.

~~~
makomk
Loads of "false information" which happens to be true is also spread using
SMS, other messaging services, and social platforms. This is the excuse of
every authoritarian state.

------
owaislone
India turns off mobile internet, calling and SMS facility in the state of
Jammu and Kashmir multiple times a year.

India turned off SMS facility for ~4 years from 2009 to 2014 in the state of
J&K.

------
sklogic
This is exactly what mesh networks are for.

~~~
mtgx
I haven't heard much about FireChat in a while.

------
techaddict009
Well this was done as a precautionary move so that people stop spreading
rumours and videos of affected areas.

Also to stop mobs to communicate in mass with each other.

~~~
nitrogen
Such "precautionary" moves are putting the cart before the horse; they value
the state over the freedoms of the people. They are incompatible with any
honest representative government.

~~~
srean
I say this as an Indian and with sadness: The notion and importance of free
speech is at worst alien and at best a concept with little or no respect in
India. If you exercise your right to free speech (you can only do so when you
indulge in speech not welcome by anyone who holds influence) you seriously
risk physical harm. This is the reason you dont have Jon Stewart show in
India, wont have in the near future.

If someone drops his pants, or more accurately does something much worse
(multi-homicide level worse) and claims "I did because BTNM said so", no one
will seriously question his/her judgement or responsibility of listening to
BTNM but will fall over themselves in their eagerness to blame BTNM
exclusively and put a blanket ban on anything that is deemed unpopular by the
people who have influence: think of the women and children that may be harmed.

I am _sick and tired_ of waiting for us to behave like adults and treat people
like adults with the full set of responsibilities that comes with it. But no,
we want to be treated like kids incapable of taking responsibility of our own
actions and elect such people to high places.

I expect this to be downvoted if there is a large Indian audience hanging out
here. This is definitely a minority view here, going by multiple conversations
I have had on this topic.

~~~
eklavya
You are correct, however the problem is with the large % of illiteracy/poor
education. I hope things will improve once the society is better educated.

~~~
srean
I wish I could bury it under that rug, but such views are held quite strongly
by the apparently educated and "literate" class. Those who do not hold on to
such beliefs are typically labelled "communist", "unpatriotic" or some such.

~~~
eklavya
My experience is on the contrary. I have seen people being branded right wing
extremists just for having a different point of view. So I think both sides
are guilty of this crime.

------
amrrs
While Indian PM addresses people on Twitter, the countrymen can't even access
basic Internet. Cry for Freedom of speech? Irony!

------
jsudhams
mmm so the digital world will also be part of bans/strikes going forward. So
parties will now call for bundh will ensure online shops are also closed.
<joke>If telephone booth and post office is closed why should the 2g/3g/4g and
land line should work they should also stop..</joke>

------
okgabr
The Egyptian government did the exact same thing during the January 2011
revolution. And they even took it a step further by cutting all mobile
communications (calls and texts) and cutting landline internet (ADSL).
Surprisingly, not a single person was asked or blamed till now.

Very sad to see the same situation happen again!

------
adityab
I'm from Ahmedabad.

Background information:

What is happening is not a religious issue or in any way related to the
communal riots 15 years ago.

From Wikipedia:

 _In India, the Other Backward Castes (OBC) status invokes affirmative action
which provides reserved quotas in education and government jobs. In Gujarat,
27% of seats are reserved for OBC (Other Backward Castes), 7.5% for Scheduled
Castes and 15% for Scheduled Tribes for a total of 49.5% of all seats. The
Supreme Court has capped the maximum reservation at 50% in their 1992
judgement._

What decides if you are OBC, SC, or ST? Your surname, and the community your
family belongs to. Note that membership to one of these segments used to
strongly correlate once with lower economic status (and therefore
opportunities), but in recent years this correlation is significantly weaker.

The agitation is a result of the unsustainable caste politics quoted above.
49.5% of people getting in through a quota is _absurd_. Now I think that
elevating downtrodden sections of society (through economic incentives, or
even a reasonable quota) is a good thing. but when _half_ of all seats in
universities and stable government jobs are tied to a quota, the playing field
for the "general category" is significantly shrunk, and people are going to
get frustrated.

The community that is protesting are the Patels. They are huge in Gujarat;
they're all over the strong middle class spectrum, and parts of the upper
class. What I mean to say is that they are not even remotely an oppressed
downtrodden segment of society. They happen to be an entrepreneurial and
dynamic class; if you're in the UK or the US, you probably are aware of Patels
because they constitute a huge percentage of Indian immigrants/expats. My
point being: Patels asking for reservation is ridiculous. I guess only in
India can a community _demand_ to be labelled as "backward".

But when the playing field is so small, is it a surprise that everyone now
wants their own space carved out?

I hope this protest will die, because animosity between such a large segment
of society and others can become a source of problems in the future. But I
also hope that it will force the government to rethink the crazy huge
reservation system.

People in Ahmedabad are feeling scared and angry right now. Just outside my
parents' home, protestors/vandals lit three buses and a bus terminal on fire
yesterday. Then there's the police, here's a video of the them going on a
power trip:
[https://twitter.com/ndtv/status/636808983131525120](https://twitter.com/ndtv/status/636808983131525120)

PS: Not all Patels are asking for reservations, there are a number of
dissenting factions as well.

~~~
naveen99
Are there a lot of patel's outside the creamy layer ?
[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creamy_layer](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creamy_layer)

The forward castes are 30% of the population and can still get 50.5 % of the
seats, and actually even more in practice. So, the numbers are not absurd, but
quotas are reviewed every ten years, and not permanent. And the quotas don't
apply to the rich backward caste members. See creamy layer.

~~~
adityab
I'm not sure of the proportion of the Patel community within/outside that, but
the creamy layer is a bit of a joke. :/

1\. It applies only to OBC (not even SC/ST)

2\. You need to declare your family's total gross income to be entered into
the creamy layer. If you declare such an income, you need to pay taxes. And we
know how rampant tax fraud is everywhere... The incentives are all wrongly
aligned.

------
uberneo
Thats why India should have more communities like
[http://battlemesh.org/](http://battlemesh.org/) for creating decentralized
adhoc networks

------
known
PATEL population is less than 1% in India; Tell PATEL to take 1%
CasteShareOfLand from India and go build their own nation;

~~~
pjc50
Because partitioning India worked so well last time?

------
apjana
The website [http://thenextweb.com/](http://thenextweb.com/) accesses your FB
credentials without asking for your consent. The headline can't be more
misleading by the way. It was done to contain spread of violence, not to stop
discussions.

~~~
hobs
How would their website accomplish that? That seems to be an interesting first
post, especially considering people communicating openly seems a way to
prevent violence and rumors.

It seems you might want to provide more detail or justification behind your
words, or people may consider you an astroturfer.

------
simondelacourt
India has quite a history of communal riots[0], and Gujarat is a state where
violence tends to become really wacky. As a kid I've lived a few years in
Rajkot, Gujarat, during and after the Ayodhya riots and violence spread easily
based on rumour. But it also has a long history of censorship.

I can understand why the Indian government shuts down a service like mobile
internet, they have had a great number of casualties due to these communal
riots. But it seems far from the right thing to do.

But the root of the problem is so much a social problem, and the current
government (as well as the past governments) have done way too little to
introduce more social equality. The backward class programs have not fixed the
problem of the caste society, and the country still benefits largely of the
enormous cast differences. Modi and his BJP have used the caste system, both
for their businesses (Gujarat mainly is a booming business state) and
political benefit (it is way easier to get your election going through the
system of castes).

Modi and his group had a strange role during the Muslim-Hindu riots of Ghodra,
and his stance towards Muslims is highly doubtful [1].

I wonder what more will come up on this story in the following days.

[0]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_violence_in_India#Gu...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_violence_in_India#Gujarat_communal_riots_.281969.29)
[1] [http://www.nytimes.com/2014/04/19/opinion/being-muslim-
under...](http://www.nytimes.com/2014/04/19/opinion/being-muslim-under-
narendra-modi.html?_r=0)

~~~
notfoss
Nice, carry on the FUD. You are conveniently ignoring UP, Bengal and several
other states where violence is a daily norm. But because Modi is closely
related to Gujarat, so it is the one singled out.

