
Real Men Go to Sleep - r0h1n
http://blogs.hbr.org/2013/11/real-men-go-to-sleep/
======
nlh
The culture of "napping = weakness / laziness" is still so prevalent in the US
workforce. It's frustrating - because it's not logical, it's just pretty
deeply ingrained.

I set up a (rather nice) nap room at my company's office and I'm the only
person who EVER uses it. It turned into a storage room. I sent articles about
the virtues of napping - the studies - the benefits - the facts - to all of my
employees, and nobody seems to care. I _still_ get an eye-roll when I head off
to the nap room in the middle of the day for a 20-minute power nap.

Meanwhile, the employees in the office just head to the espresso machine and
down shot after shot to keep themselves lit up. It's so odd - I can explain
100 times over how I get all the benefits of caffeine (and MORE) by taking a
20-minute nap, and they just don't seem to care. Deeply ingrained, hard-to-
change views.

~~~
enraged_camel
Correct me if I'm wrong, but if you're getting sufficient amounts of quality
sleep at night, there is no reason why you should need 20-minute "power naps"
in the middle of the day. (There may be exceptions, such as extremely
demanding manual labor, but I think we're talking about white collar jobs in
this context.)

~~~
nlh
Not for me. I can get 10 hours of sleep at night but I'll still hit an
afternoon lull post-lunch. I'm sure if I really worked at it I could figure
out why (too big a lunch? blood sugar spike?) but regardless, I'm good to go
for 6+ more hours w/ a 20-minute nap. Meanwhile everyone else sits and forces
their eyelids open, stares at YouTube videos, and downs espresso shots...

~~~
graeme
This lull disappeared for me after I stopped eating wheat.

Not saying you'd get the same effect from quitting wheat. But there's decent
odds it's something you eat.

~~~
pekk
Do you have Celiac disease, or did you just decide on your own that wheat is
unclean?

~~~
DrStalker
There are a few things other than Celiac disease that cause problems with
wheat; I've never been able to get a solid diagnosis other than ruling out
Celiacs but I know if I have too much wheat, especially in the form of light
fluffy baked goods, I get very tired and cranky as well as having digestive
issues.

It could be an additive used in commercial baking because I seem to be fine
with no-wheat gluten and some forms of wheat,but pragmatically avoiding wheat
helps me.

~~~
xiaohanzhang14
This entire thread is like a WebMD page. Somehow a food coma resulted in a
Celiac disease diagnosis. Not that it's impossible, but it's certainly
implausible.

Sounds like your lunches include a bunch of carbs, too much sugar, and/or
maybe a drink or two. If it happens frequently, habits form.

Get real, guys.

~~~
graeme
I didn't say I have Celiac disease. I said, since I quit wheat, I never get
food comas. I used to get them routinely.

I don't know WHY I don't get them. Celiac is not the only issue wheat can
cause.

I feel fairly confident in these results. I tested wheat in isolation,
repeatedly. I've tested other variables: carbs, sugar, dairy. None of them
ever gave me a food coma, in the absence of wheat.

It seems completely reasonable for me to avoid wheat, given the results of my
experiments. Why are you so certain I must wrong?

------
x0054
While studying for the bar, I used to take 2 hour 'naps' in the middle of the
day. My schedule was 4 hours on, some food and nap, 4 hours on. Probably most
productive 3 months of my life. I got to say, those siesta embracing countries
might be on to something.

~~~
wil421
I usually feel groggy after naps and it would be hard for me to go back to
studying or working.

~~~
rootbear
There are thing you can do to make naps more effective. I do well with a 20
minute nap in mid-day, but I'll feel groggy if I nap for too long. It's better
if I don't lie down, but instead sit in a comfy chair, so I don't go too
deeply asleep. If you drink coffee, have a cup _before_ the nap, and the
caffeine should kick in about the time you want to wake up. Other suggestions
can be found on line.

~~~
wil421
For me I think part of the problem is that I cant just go to sleep it takes me
almost 30 minutes just to relax into a state where my mind isnt thinking.

------
waterlion
What? I just see a black screen with INVEST IN YOURSELF. I cannot understand
the confusion of ideas that leads people to prevent visitors from reaching
their content. I'm not going to click that ad, I'm not going to view your page
so I'm not going to see the other ads on that page either.

~~~
snarfy
view source -> delete spammy node

~~~
levosmetalo
Why bother? This kind pic ads is just an indicator of poor content.

~~~
enraged_camel
In my experience, HBR very rarely has poor content.

------
josefresco
I take my sleep advice from infamous hip hop artist Nas - "I never sleep,
cause sleep is the cousin of death"

In reality I sleep 8+ hours and laugh at those who "boast" at how little
sleep, or how many hours they work at the expense of other valuable things in
their life (family, socializing etc.)

Also, a lot of these comments are about the mid-afternoon/post lunch nap.
Honestly I'd prefer to get home to my family a bit earlier, than take a mid
day siesta and have to come home later in the evening.

Getting up early and _clocking out_ early are especially tempting given how
little daylight we have (Northeast US) this time of year.

~~~
hfsktr
Everywhere I've worked (for the most part) you had to be there between 8-5
(roughly). You just couldn't leave early even if you came in early. I know
it's not like that everywhere. My current job I am almost always the last one
here by 5 and it's just hard to break the habit that I have to be here until
closing time. Exceptions were made if you made arrangements with management
but usually only people with families or college/schooling got any leeway.

~~~
Romoku
I work 7:00 - 3:30 and go home early on Fridays.

~~~
ekianjo
wait, how can you go home earlier than 3h30? :)

------
androidb
Closed the page before reading the article for the fact that they popped up a
modal advertisement window with a black background - ironic is that Adblock
removed the ad content so it was a white box on a black background.

~~~
dwaltrip
I'm sick of seeing comments about how someone didn't even read the freakin'
article because they didn't like "X" on the page.

~~~
pc86
Seriously. If you're so [self-]important that you can't be bothered to close a
modal window, you clearly don't have time to be reading articles from HN.

~~~
freehunter
I wouldn't refuse to read an article because of something like that (unless it
made it overly difficult to read the article), but I think bad design habits
do need to be called out. They seem to be becoming more popular on sites that
really should know better. If your design choices make the article
uncomfortable or annoying to read, it detracts from the content.

~~~
ganeumann
You're not the target audience (if you're the average HN reader, that is,
don't actually know you personally.)

HBR gets a high price for its ads because its audience is older businesspeople
(decision makers on high-priced services and products) who consider its
content high-worth and authoritative (this attitude rubs off on the ads around
the content.) Having a gating ad that scares away people who don't value the
content enough to close it probably increases the price per ad more than
enough to make up for the slightly decreased viewership of the ad.

------
spuz
It was my understanding that while Google has nap rooms in some offices, they
are seldom used. The culture is geared around long hours and if you are seen
to be napping that is seen as a potential sign of weakness. Of course I could
be completely wrong (I'm just pulling this idea out of a vague memory of
reading about it here on HN) so I hope a Google employee will correct me.
However, it seems reasonable that a company would need to do more than just
offer the opportunity to take breaks, work from home and work sensible hours.
The culture of seeing hard workers as more valuable must be a difficult one to
break.

~~~
erre
I'm not a Google employee, but I once visited their Zürich office and was
shown the nap room. Not only was it really cool, but there were several people
using it (just after lunch).

~~~
abrichr
There's definitely a significant difference in attitudes towards sleep and
work between Europe and the US. Perhaps someone who has experience working in
both can comment.

~~~
oscardelben
I worked in both, and while I see more people taking naps here in London, they
definitely take naps in MTV too!

------
dpcheng2003
Or it can just say healthy, productive people go to sleep. I find the "real
men" headline bait almost as annoying as the pop-up.

~~~
drcube
I think it's A) a callback to the "Real Men Don't Eat Quiche" book/concept.
And B) trying to overcome the macho, ego mentality that they feel is driving
professionals to sleep less.

~~~
visakanv
It is. Some people believe that we should lead the concept into healthier
territories, which would be a superior outcome to the status quo. Others
believe we should avoid using it altogether, and that any use of the term
automatically perpetuates the macho, ego mentality- whether intentionally or
not.

There's not much winning to be had, I've never seen anybody really change
their minds about this, because we feel good about the side we pick. Best IMHO
to just acknowledge the deeper issue, address it and keep moving forward.

------
mfjordvald
At our offices in China almost everyone naps during the lunch break. Lights
gets turned off and fold out beds dominate the floor space. Took a bit to get
used to when I first got here but it's actually quite nice to get a short nap
in the middle of the day.

~~~
fatihdonmez
I was loving it when i was expat there. now sleepless lunch times in my
country.

------
hownottowrite
At Day's Close by Roger Ekirch is a great book about our historical
relationship to the night (sleep and not sleeping). [http://www.amazon.com/At-
Days-Close-Night-Times/dp/039332901...](http://www.amazon.com/At-Days-Close-
Night-Times/dp/0393329011)

------
rayiner
Some small portion of the population naturally needs less sleep:
[http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=genetic-
mut...](http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=genetic-mutation-
sleep-less). For everyone else, you're not going to beat those people by
trying to emulate their sleeping habits.

There is definitely a "sleep is for losers" kind of machismo that pervades
professional industries, but it's stupid. While sometimes you have to cut in
on sleep to get something out the door, making a habit of not getting much
sleep isn't likely to be a competitive advantage for you in the long run.
Ironically, its the sorts of professions that glorify not sleeping that tend
to require the quick thinking, creativity, and careful attention to detail
that is undermined by not sleeping. It's worth while to cut into other things
to make time for adequate sleep.

------
pantalaimon
All real people sleep.

It's robots that don't, but I think they could easily fake it.

~~~
zacinbusiness
Data has an "off switch," and he powers down sometimes (I forget why). Not
sure if he dreams of electric sheep or not.

------
anonhacker
I'll have to admit that I try to get away with as little sleep as possible.
It's not that I'm trying to be a hero or show that I'm macho, I'm doing the
whole nights and weekends thing to work on my product because I'm driven to
make it successful and it feels absurd to trade off progress for sleep.

I'm well aware of the potential consequences health and otherwise but I see it
as a short term cost for a long term benefit.

~~~
cesarbs
You would probably make even more progress if you allowed yourself a good
sleep schedule. If you "try to get away with as little sleep as possible", it
is very likely you are sleep deprived, which leads to bad decisions and more
frequent mistakes.

~~~
anonhacker
It's reasonable to assume I'm hurting my productivity but like I said I'm
doing the whole nights and weekends thing, a couple extra hours of less
productive work is better than none.

As far as grogginess/tiredness after you wake up goes that's related to where
in your sleep cycle you wake up. I use one of the numerous iPhone/Android apps
that use the accelerator to detect and wake you up at the end of a sleep
phase.

------
trynumber9
I'd love to nap. But no matter when, where and how I try, I feel more tired
afterward. It doesn't help me. I just need a good night's sleep instead.

------
zacinbusiness
My schedule is really weird. Because I work in America for a company in
Scandinavia there is a pretty wide time difference. When I first started they
asked if I could be "at work" around 8 or 9 my time, which is very reasonable
considering that is 2 or 3 their time. I often volunteer to wake up early when
there's something important that's going to happen, and I often work late into
the night if I'm trying to get something accomplished, but it's all of my own
doing - they never ask me to, or tell me that I have to, and I've actually
been politely asked to go to bed before.

On normal working days, though, I wake up naturally around 6, go through my
normal routine, and am "at work" by 7-8 anyway. And then I work until around 1
or 2 at which point I take a nap for an hour or so, and then I get back to
work until I've finished all my major tasks for that day which is typically 4
or 5. After that, I'm free to do whatever I want, and I try to get to bed by
11 so that I can be sure to wake up the next day fully rested (this is mostly
out of respect for my employer rather than out of a sense of habit or of good
health).

~~~
vetler
What kind of work do you do?

~~~
zacinbusiness
I do what is best described as marketing automation. For instance setting up
campaigns that will send personalized content messages to client customers
(think the offers that you receive from a company such a Bestbuy). So there's
a lot of planning and testing involved before the campaigns are executed.

Then there's other things like designing some business processes and,
occasionally, editing some HTML here and there.

------
pshin45
I wish I could find it again, but I remember reading about a study that stated
that a small percentage of the population, maybe 5% or 10%, are genetically
wired so that they actually can function normally with only 4 or 5 hours of
sleep.

It seemed to make sense, especially when I later heard stories of professional
athletes like Gilbert Arenas (professional basketball player) who were able to
play at a very high level despite regularly only getting only 3 hours of sleep
per night during the NBA season.

It got me to thinking that maybe these "Sleep is for the weak" proponents like
Thomas Edison, Donald Trump, and Uber's Travis Kalanick belong to this
genetically blessed contingent of the general population, and that they may be
mistakenly propagating this false belief that "If I can do it, everyone should
else be able to do it, otherwise you're just being lazy."

It would be awesome if someone could help me dig up that study.

~~~
jacalata
This Harvard sleep summary page [0] gives a few references at the bottom for
similar sounding studies.

[0]
[http://healthysleep.med.harvard.edu/healthy/science/variatio...](http://healthysleep.med.harvard.edu/healthy/science/variations/individual-
variation-genetics)

------
yetanotherphd
I feel that it's somewhat unfortunately that comments tend to hijack articles
and focus on something the article isn't about. This article only mentioned
napping in passing. The main topics were cultural attitudes towards sleep,
allowing for flexible work schedules, and eliminating graveyard shifts.

------
Gyy0
"Sleep is for sissies." also reflected in the Ben Franklin maxim "There will
be plenty of time to sleep once you are dead."

A friend had a short stint working in Taiwan and he was surprised by the fact
that almost everyone took a nap sometime during the day. Long term thinking
that.

------
abalashov
Two problems with this for me:

1) I can't just nap like that. I can lay there for thirty minutes, an hour, or
more, without falling asleep. Reading or watching something usually helps, but
in all cases, the degree of exhaustion, or other fatigue or unconsciousness-
inducing factor, has to be fairly high.

2) I can't wake up after 20-30 minutes. I just can't. If I'm going to take a
nap, it's going to turn into a 2-3 hour nap (and more often, a 3-4 hour nap).
And then I'll be up all night.

------
bobbles
This is what I get to see when I visit this website:

[http://i.imgur.com/aQE2AVD.png](http://i.imgur.com/aQE2AVD.png)

what a great experience.

------
alphanumeric0
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Segmented_sleep](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Segmented_sleep)

------
Dogamondo
Is this the premise of where the saying "you snooze, you lose" came from?

------
cdbattags
ironic that this is upvoted while the US is asleep

~~~
eitally
Heh, real people wake up early to take advantage of the uber-productive time
between 5-7am.

~~~
mhurron
I hate that I know there is a 5am. Unfortunately this week I'm in a training
class and have to get there earlier than I usually have to get to work. I
can't wait to sleep this weekend.

------
StandardFuture
This article argues that the 'American idea' of regarding sleep as
weak/unecessary stems from the early industrial days with men like Thomas
Edison. Hmmm ... it seems that the American industrial age and beyond has had
a lot more productivity than at any other time in history. And you know who
else didn't consider sleep of very high importance? Isaac Newton.

Oh, but some guy writing a random article with nearly zero authority has
accomplished SO MUCH MORE than any of those men right?

I understand the importance of sleep and its effects on mentality and
productivity. But, I really don't think we are going to properly understand
the implications behind sleeping schedules for individual (types) with some
random internet articles that we keep linking to on HN.

EDIT: This may get downvoted, but since I assume HN is an intellectual
discussion site, it would be appropriate to offer up your counter-arguments to
my points rather than just give a "NAY!" gesture hiding anonymously under the
guise of some sort of self-righteousness. Thanks.

~~~
tehwalrus
Anecdata. You forgot Margaret Thatcher (4 hour nights).

The article also pointed to a counterexample - Albert Einstein (10 hour
nights).

Anecdotes are not sufficient to prove either point, you should look at the
research on this. And research shows[1] that animals that are sleep deprived
perform significantly worse in cognitive tasks.

Now, when humans start being "sleep deprived" will vary among individuals -
but _at least_ 6 hours is definitely required in _most_ of us (of course,
exceptions to every rule.)

[1]
[http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2982737/](http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2982737/)

~~~
StandardFuture
Obviously, (as I am sure you are aware after careful consideration of my
argument) my conclusions were towards the need for a better understanding of
the subject itself and not towards "proving" a particular subjective viewpoint
on the matter.

I thought it fair though to offer up symmetrical counterpoints to the OP to
show that this is all drawing global conclusions on a particular set of
examples (or small sample sizes if you will).

~~~
tehwalrus
from the article:

> _An abundance of scientific findings, many from research sponsored by the
> military and NASA, has led many executives to abandon the quest to minimize
> sleep unreasonably._

They aren't arguing entirely from anecdotes, they are using them to illustrate
the point mostly. They are writing for a broad audience of non-scientists,
which they've used as an excuse to exclude references from passages like the
above, perhaps justifiably.

~~~
StandardFuture
Ah, but we would need to know the parameters and conclusions of these studies
to know if the author was utulizing the data and findings correctly or if he
is using it in a biased manner.

Assuming, he references the generality of the studies appropriately (abandon
the quest to minimize sleep unreasonably). Then the discussion should cater
towards the differences between unreasonable sleep deprivation expectations
brought on unwillingly and its toll on the mind vs. sleep deprivation
willingly done due to a personal will to finish a project or continue a streak
of creativity, etc.

~~~
tehwalrus
If you want to know, raise some funding and do a meta-study. This was just an
article to provoke thought among business-types (being in the Harvard Business
Review) - If you want to find The Truth then you can, the universe is right
there in front of you to measure.

(I'm only half joking - if you put a proposal for a meta-study about this
research up on Kickstarter, I will back it.)

~~~
Fomite
Hell, a meta-analysis doesn't actually need funding, just a library card or a
local university.

