
Microsoft's Calibri font is at the center of a political scandal in Pakistan - okket
https://www.engadget.com/2017/07/12/microsoft-calibri-pakistan-fontgate/
======
demystified
MS Calibri font was also part of a debate in Turkey: A CD, claimed to be
produced in 2003 and used as an evidence (about a coup) in a court case in
Turkey, contained MS Doc files written with Calibri font.

The case neverthless went ahead (i.e., the file used as an evidence), people
got sentenced but later all claims were dismissed and judges either left the
country or in jail now.

Full detail in following post from Dani Rodrik - a professor at Harvard
Kennedy School:

[http://rodrik.typepad.com/dani_rodriks_weblog/2012/10/did-
mi...](http://rodrik.typepad.com/dani_rodriks_weblog/2012/10/did-microsoft-
steal-its-fonts-from-the-turkish-army.html)

------
twoodfin
Reminds me very much of the kerfuffle over the alleged George W. Bush Air
National Guard memos that ultimately got Dan Rather canned.

[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killian_documents_controvers...](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killian_documents_controversy)

~~~
MrZongle2
And deservedly so. Years later, he still defended their use despite all the
evidence to the contrary: [http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/live-feed/dan-
rather-stands...](http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/live-feed/dan-rather-
stands-by-bush-report-cbs-news-317993)

~~~
Nomentatus
Well I tried to find that evidence... got tired of chasing references, never
did get to the slam-dunk evidence that it couldn't have been typed on a
selectric, if it exists.

~~~
ghaff
This was one of those (rather common) cases where no one could really get to
slam-dunk evidence that it _couldn 't_ have been typed on a selectric
(especially given they weren't original copies) but any reasonable
interpretation of the evidence suggested that it was far more likely to have
come out of Microsoft Word on default settings. (Per many forensic document
experts.)

Other aspects of the documents looked sketchy as well upon further
examination.

A lot of other news organizations were really pissed because there were some
questionable aspects to GWB's National Guard Service but those were pretty
much off the table for discussion when the apparently forged documents were
discredited.

------
jankotek
> _creator Lucas De Groot, who seemed skeptical of the font 's use before its
> public release. "Why would anyone use a completely unknown font for an
> official document in 2006?"_

> _Microsoft 's website states that version 1.0 of the font was available to
> download separately as far back as 2005. And, according to font consultant
> Thomas Phinney, Calibri was also available as part of a Windows pre-release
> in 2004._

Back then many people were using beta-versions of Windows 2003 Server (or
other server products) . Server edition was great desktop (compared to XP and
Vista), but also very expensive. Prerelease version had 90 days trial period,
which could be easily reset.

MS Office format is basically a memory dump. So forged documents should leave
much more evidence with timestamps, office patches versions, error handling
etc...

~~~
ghaff
It seems as if the bottom line is that someone _could_ have gotten their hands
on Calibri for Windows at an earlier date than 2007. However, given this case,
it seems rather more likely that they used the default font on the released
product at a later date. Like most evidence, you can come up with alternate
theories, but usually the obvious conclusion is the right one.

~~~
Giroflex
The fact that it was indeed publicly available before 2007 kind of throws the
whole thing out of the window, though.

Even if it seems obvious, how are you going to prove that they didn't actually
download the font or have the special Windows edition?

Although it might turn public perception, it shouldn't, I believe, be
considered judicially.

~~~
coldpie
This is what standards of proof are for. "Beyond reasonable doubt,"
"preponderance of the evidence," etc. You use different standards for
different types of trials. In one trial you may ask, "is it more likely that
this is a forged document using the default font, or that the user went out of
their way to download an obscure font before its public release and
specifically chose to use it?" In another trial with a different standard you
may ask, "is there any possible way that this document was not forged?" The
answer to each question is different, which is why we declare the standard of
proof before the trial begins.

Of course, I do not know the standard in use in this country's court system.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_burden_of_proof](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_burden_of_proof)

~~~
smitherfield
Well, in politics as opposed to a criminal trial there's no such thing as
burdens of proof, just whether a scandal has legs.

Among American (and British, Canadian etc) lawyers who advocate quantifying
the concept of "reasonable doubt,"[1] the consensus figure seems to be that
proof beyond a reasonable doubt means greater than 95% certainty (or, stated
negatively, a less than 5% level of uncertainty). Judge Weinstein of the
Eastern District of New York[2] puts the 95% number in his jury instructions,
for example.

If we assume the Bayesian prior that it's at least 19x more likely that
Pakistani politicians at the highest level of influence are secretly corrupt
and/or evading taxes, than it is that they're secretly tech nerds who eagerly
download the latest Microsoft betas and try out all the new fonts, then we
have met that 95% standard. If the accused were a Microsoft executive instead
of an official of one of the world's most corrupt states,[3] the equation
would be different.

Of course, there might be other arguments for doubt besides "the font was
available in obscure beta software." One potential argument is that it's a
newer version of an older document that was typeset in a different font, which
was changed to Calibri at some later point (recent MS Words might default to
displaying the document in Calibri if it were sent to a computer that didn't
have the original font installed, or the file type doesn't include font
information in a way Word supports, or it was copied and pasted from the
clipboard).

[1] Which IMO it should be; most of the clear miscarriages of justice in
either direction that I know of seem like they could have been prevented or at
least been mistrials if, as much as possible, we'd nudged the jury to
carefully quantify the strength of both sides' evidence instead of voting
emotionally.

[2]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_B._Weinstein](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_B._Weinstein)

[3]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_Perceptions_Index](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_Perceptions_Index)

~~~
Nomentatus
I begin to realize the extent to which mere eccentricity (say in choosing
fonts) is already deeply illegal (once you factor in how many decisions we all
make that put us in a 5% box.) No wonder people herd.

------
mrleinad
The deduction that some document must be a forgery because it's dated to 2006
and the font it is written in wasn't available until 2007, sounds like
something out of a Sherlock Holmes story.

~~~
zhte415
Sounds reasonably quick to observe. Lawyers work with documents everyday.

On the basic training I've had in spotting fake documentation, "check the font
seems right" is near the top of the list e.g. in regarding fake company
letter-heads.

~~~
mrleinad
I believe you. I just thought that some quick deduction like that would be
well placed in the Sherlock universe.

~~~
zhte415
Oh yes, absolutely. Would fit in perfectly. Pure deduction ;)

------
ahs1200
This is not the first time folks get in trouble because of pc fonts. A high
profile case is that of Dan Rather, who had to resign from CBS News after the
Killian documents controvery:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killian_documents_controversy](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killian_documents_controversy)

------
iliketosleep
Would be interesting if the document also has the "tracking dots" printer
companies use.

------
KON_Air
All word processors should change their default font every at major version so
we can have #fontgates more often.

~~~
dragon_greens
Apple is already doing so. :]

------
maxpert
Nawaz Sharif and family are clearly lying, people (specially deed writing Govt
sectors) wait few years after stable release. The font shipped in 2007 and I
can bet nobody installed vista right away.

------
dragon_greens
They should have stuck with Comic Sans.

~~~
smnrchrds
For sensitive documents, nothing beats Wingdings.

------
ungzd
That's cyberpunk with vaporwave flavor again.

~~~
zabana
Best comment ever posted on this site hands down. Not even being sarcastic.
Stay cyber, stay punk.

------
projectramo
For those who are interested, this is the text of the full report:

[https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B6leBB47NfItbHQwa3c4d3E0QmM...](https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B6leBB47NfItbHQwa3c4d3E0QmM/view)

(for those wondering why it is in English, that is one of the official
languages in Pakistan).

------
baybal2
Pakistan holds promise as a country and an emerging economy.

Their biggest problem: the country fails to attract foreign capitals, and the
local noveaux riche never keep their money in the country.

To many it is a mystery why a country that holds an incomparably less
protectionistic stance than its neighbors, has retained much of British legal
system, and is more welcoming to foreign capital policy-wise fails so hard at
that.

One explanation that I believe explains more than just saying "it is because
of crazy mountain people surrounding the country," is that the perpetual
uncertainty over power succession, forces rich people to move their capitals
abroad affecting trade balance, and creating an illusion of very low capital
appreciation in the country, this in turn tell foreign investors that the
country is lost cause for conventional investments.

~~~
virtuabhi
Are you serious? The biggest problem of Pakistan is failure to attract foreign
capital? What about harboring terrorist groups like LeT, JeM, and AlQ? Or, the
fact that religious strife is killing innocents - sunnis killing shias,
muslims killing hindus. Or, that the army is not under the control of civilian
goverment, leading to multiple coups. I can provide hundreds of references to
back these claims. Lack of foreign capital is probably the last problem for
Pakistan.

~~~
baybal2
>Are you serious

I'm totally serious Virtuabhi

In total, the amount of lives lost to fighting in the north, and with internal
oppositionary movements amounts to around 4300 people over 10 years - that
digit is from Hina Rabbani Khar. This is not much for such a populous country.

Armed struggle rarely reach big cities where the majority of business activity
take place. On my observation, something big only happens in big cities once a
year or less.

I do not believe that OBL, AQ and co. count for more than a small nuisance.

No armed group ever came close to trampling the central government, nor will
they ever be in the foreseable future.

India is a genuine issue for the country. Not solely because of its military
ambitions. The constant economic and diplomatic pressure from India is the
reason for much of international isolation of the country.

The army, and previously regular army coups could've been seen as an issue in
the past. In my own observation, I see that army's freedom of action was
already on the downward trajectory during Musharaf's reign, and that was
partially responsible for him falling out of power so fast (other being that
Zia's era generals simply died of old age). The civil society (Pakistani
oligarchate), is in antagonistic relations with the army. They are squeezing
them out of power, preventing them from gaining any momentum. Generals are not
coming back to power in our generation. Big buck has won over the military.

~~~
Bakary
Is it totally irrealistic to expect better relations between India and
Pakistan in the future?

------
yellowapple
I specifically remember using Calibri quite a while before it became the
default in MS Office. It looked nice, and it was different from all the Arial
and Times New Roman out there.

------
AngeloAnolin
Wasn't there an article that says some printers were printing small marks on
the document that provides some info on when it was printed, model, etc.? I
suppose the printer during those times may not have the capability yet.

Found the HN discussion[1] related.

[1]
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14501894](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14501894)

~~~
pilsetnieks
Color laser printers. Most places using laser printers, especially for
printing documents, would usually use B&W printers.

------
manav
While I believe there was probably fraud involved, they could have been using
the volume licensed version released in 2016 or the beta (2015) of MS Office.

Piracy of both is rampant in Asia.

~~~
fghafoor
The document in question is of property bought in London and all documents
prepared there.

------
d0100
> The report charges the PM with perjury, hiding his wealth, forging
> documents, and living beyond his means.

You can be charged for living beyond your means?

~~~
Athas
I don't know the details of Pakistani law, but it seems like it could be a
clever judicial technique for fighting corruption or tax evasion in cases
where it cannot be directly proven. If you spend more money than you lawfully
earn, then presumably the rest have to come from illegal activities (assuming
no fortune)?

~~~
lallysingh
Or are in debt?

~~~
kilotaras
The debt should also be verifiably documented. Otherwise one can claim any
money as a loan from friends.

------
minxomat
I guess the government will soon be... Sans-Sharif

(sorry)

~~~
shp0ngle
Reddit one-liners is why I hate HN threads lately

~~~
castis
I can understand your frustration but a downvote would have sufficed. If you
hadn't seen the HN guidelines, take a gander when you get a spare moment.
[https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html](https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html)

Most notably this:

> If your account is less than a year old, please don't submit comments saying
> that HN is turning into Reddit. It's a common semi-noob illusion, as old as
> the hills.

~~~
lmm
My account is a several years old. HN is turning into Reddit. These one-liners
really are a lot more common than they were even 2-3 years ago.

~~~
Flimm
I agree. If I wanted r/technology, I'd go to r/technology. Please, fellow
users of HN, downvote jokes.

~~~
maneesh
You sound like you wouldn't be much fun to hang out with at parties.

~~~
dang
Personal attacks aren't ok here.

------
xyzxyz998
I'm glad we're talking about fonts because I have a question that I want to
ask this audience-

How many of you insist on choosing your own fonts in your websites, rather
than just specifying families? I can understand if the fonts you choose are
fancy. But otherwise, as a power user who has set default fonts for various
families carefuly, I dislike having to read stuff in any font except my own
carefuly chosen ones.

I hope websites defered to users somehow on this.

~~~
toxican
I think things like Google Fonts have lead to an overuse of stylistic fonts
and that should be addressed. But not for the reasons you're stating. 99.9% of
all users don't care about setting their own fonts for websites or even know
that that's possible. I'd rather let the company/website that paid for a
designer to come up with a solid typography dictate how the site should look
than trust my programmer's eye for design (which is to say I'm blind as a bat
in that regard).

The real reason over use of fonts is dangerous is because it's a huge hit to
site performance if not done properly. I've seen way too many sites that are
yanking in Google Fonts all willy-nilly with zero regard for typography or
performance. That's bad, but it's almost always the result of an inexperienced
"nephew that knows HTML" or someone with access to a really shitty WordPress
template.

And since the vast majority of people have zero interest in tweaking fonts
themselves (myself included), why _not_ use fonts other than the handful of
(imo) boring system fonts?

~~~
eropple
_> why not use fonts other than the handful of (imo) boring system fonts?_

Ayup. I use Oxygen on pretty much everything because I really like how it
looks and it's part of the distinctive style I impart to the stuff that I'm
building. The number of users who have _really strong opinions about fonts_
versus the number of users who either consciously or unconsciously appreciate
a good-looking design is not a ratio in favor of caring about the former.

(Also agreed on performance; that's why I use one font family and use it from
Google Fonts--because it caches.)

------
baybal2
Pakistani political establishment is hilarious

------
qrbLPHiKpiux
I guess today 2017 "font" now equals "typeface."

~~~
wolfgke
> I guess today 2017 "font" now equals "typeface."

As a non-native English speaker I really don't understand the subtle
difference between these words.

~~~
pluma
[https://www.fastcodesign.com/3028971/whats-the-difference-
be...](https://www.fastcodesign.com/3028971/whats-the-difference-between-a-
font-and-a-typeface)

> Even among type professionals, there’s a growing acceptance that for most
> people, the terms font and typeface can be used interchangeably. Only
> experts really need to worry about it.

> “For most people in most situations, those terms can swap around without any
> trouble,” Tobias Frere-Jones tells Co.Design. “The distinction would matter
> in type design, obviously, but also contexts which involve engineering, like
> app development or web design.”

I'd agree with that. To save you reading the entire article, here's the rough
definition presented in it:

 _Typeface_ refers to the set of all the distinct shapes. It's what most
people mean when they say "font" in everyday life.

 _Font_ refers to a specific weight at a specific size.

Even as a web developer I find that distinction confusing because a single
"font" file will usually support any number of sizes and can be rendered in
different weights or even as oblique, although of course the result will be
less sophisticated than using the "hand-crafted" weight variants or italics.
And of course there are file formats that can actually contain more than one
such "font" (even from different typefaces).

So outside of actual type design or technical specifications I would say that
the terms should be treated as interchangeable because nobody can be bothered
using them correctly.

I'd actually argue even type designers don't care much what you call them. Or
at least that seems to go for the kind of type designers that actually design
types rather than correcting people on the Internet.

~~~
Sean1708
> Typeface refers to the set of all the distinct shapes. It's what most people
> mean when they say "font" in everyday life.

> Font refers to a specific weight at a specific size.

That's a _much_ better summary than the article's "In brief:" sentence.

~~~
keithpeter
UK: a font was originally a fount of type (from fountain).

[http://britishletterpress.co.uk/type-and-typography/type-
syn...](http://britishletterpress.co.uk/type-and-typography/type-
synopses/typefounders-proportions/)

Above dates from the days when letterpress was still around (my local
letterpress based jobbing printer closed his shop in the late 80s/early 90s
because of repeated break-ins after his lead). Article tends to suggest a
fount would be a given weight/style of a typeface.

