

Side effects of PhD programs - gandalfgeek
http://blog.vivekhaldar.com/post/4986502776/side-effects-of-phd-programs

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jseliger
_And they do it for dirt cheap rates._

This would seem to be an argument for students not to enter PhD programs—if
their labor is undervalued, they're better off going into industry than
getting advanced degrees in academia. It's certainly true that the current
system works reasonably well for universities, but I think both "The PhD
Factory" and "What is a Phd really worth?" are targeting people thinking about
grad school.

I'd observe one other thing: a lot of undergrads might be getting what's paid
for. That's one reason I wrote How Universities Work, or: What I Wish I’d
Known Freshman Year: A Guide to American University Life for the Uninitiated
([http://jseliger.com/2010/09/26/how-universities-work-or-
what...](http://jseliger.com/2010/09/26/how-universities-work-or-what-i-
wish-i%E2%80%99d-known-freshman-year-a-guide-to-american-university-life-for-
the-uninitiated)), as freshmen and sophomores often don't understand what grad
students and profs are actually rewarded for.

~~~
hardhead
While it might be true that TAs are "undervalued" in their paycheck, you have
to also account for the fact that the university is often paying 5-20k+ for
your tuition, fees, insurance, retirement, and other costs of being a student
and employee. They are also training you to be an academic. Teaching
undergrads the fundamentals of your field is very useful towards that end.
Graduate school is not something to be undertaken on a whim--it is a huge
commitment in time and resources. Ultimately, graduate school is not something
to pursue if you're trying to make more cash.

I left a lucrative and successful career in IT 5 years ago to pursue my PhD
because I wanted to research and teach in academia. I have met many other
students who left lucrative positions to come back to school. Universally all
these students understand that this career choice is not about the money, it
is about lifestyle. The academic tenure-track job market is fiercely
competitive and can be brutal. The tenure process is tough for young faculty
members. Ultimately, a doctorate is for those who are passionate about
pursuing high-quality, highly technical or theoretical research (either in
academia, the government, or private industry) or for those who have a passion
to teach at the university level.

I'm fortunate to have secured a tenure-track position at a research
institution starting this autumn. The salary I'll be making will be
considerably less than what I would have been making, not to mention the 5
years of not making a decent salary. The ability to continue pursuing my
research agenda, collaborate with incredibly bright colleagues of my choosing,
work more flexible hours than in my previous jobs, create and develop courses
for undergrad and grad students which may have an enormous impact in their
careers, and spend more time with my wife and kids makes me very happy with
the "value" I'll be getting out of the time and effort it took to pursue a
PhD.

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larsberg
Another possibility is the replacement of particularly the intro-level courses
with lecturers instead of research faculty. Of course, that would mean giving
up on the "you are taught only by professors at <X> university" tagline + US
World News ranking point.

Caveat: I am currently one of those PhD-pursuing TAs. In fact, it's time to go
proctor a midterm! <enqueue maniacal laughter>

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zheng
Couldn't agree move, save the point about professors hating dealing with
undergrads. Even the most research focused professors actually enjoy talking
to undergrads given that they are respectful and show some desire to learn (in
my experience). Grading, yeah they won't touch that with a 10ft. pole.

I think the point about drawing internationals to America is understated. I
never really thought about this, but its very true. I've personally met more
high achieving, very intelligent foreigners who came for grad school and were
planning on returning home, but for one reason or another ended up staying
here. This is invaluable for the US, in my opinion.

~~~
scott_s
It is, but unfortunately, the importance of retaining these highly educated
people is too subtle a concept to express in the immigration yelling that
happens at the national level. Most of my colleagues are not American, but
they have to jump through hoops to remain in the US - despite being educated
at public universities. We've already invested in them, the rational thing to
do is to try to retain that investment.

~~~
zheng
I'm unaware of the legal hurdles immigrants have to face, never having to deal
with it personally. It's upsetting to hear this, especially when we're talking
about the kind of people our government keeps telling us we need. Such is the
way of politics, I suppose.

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ohyes
It seems criminal to me that Universities are allowed to have teaching
assistants teach classes. Aren't they supposed to be the assistants, not the
teachers?

It seems OK to have them help with grading or tutoring, but teaching the
entire class? Why do we allow Universities that do this to remain accredited?
Why do students put up with it? In more expensive places, you are paying a
TA's entire yearly pay for 4 classes.

~~~
scott_s
I would agree with you if there was a connection between the quality of the
teaching and whether or not the teacher is a professor or a TA, but I don't
think there is. Professors are hired for their ability to do research, not
teach. Many see it as a chore. And TAs are - in my experience - only allowed
to be the instructor of record when they've been around for a while.

Personally, one of my best math teachers in undergrad was a grad student. He
was _leagues_ better at teaching than all but two of the math professors I
had. I also had two TAs who ran recitation sections (homework help and extra
discussion) who were excellent. The TA who ran the recitations sections for
one of my physics classes was a far better teacher than the professor for the
course, and I would have preferred he teach the class.

I taught a class when I was a grad student. It was a summer course on intro to
programming for non-majors. My department historically asks some grad students
to teach the summer classes. Several of my students told me they were thankful
that they got a good teacher.

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rxin
In most top CS schools, the teaching requirement for graduate students is
minimal (e.g. you are only required to teach once or twice). This only works
when the research groups are well funded and you don't need to teach to earn
your living stipend.

~~~
rflrob
If, as many articles seem to be suggesting, we decrease the number of grad
students, then that just means that the ones left will teach more, which
distracts them from the research and (presumably) lengthens the PhDs. It's not
a completely linear tradeoff, but certainly something to bear in mind.

