
MentalHealthError: an exception occurred - cool-RR
http://www.kennethreitz.org/essays/mentalhealtherror-an-exception-occurred
======
tominous
This story struck a nerve because (in hindsight) I saw the same thing
happening to my brother when he was about 19. He was suddenly interested in
astrology, reiki, "tachyon energy disks", epiphanies, angels and demons, the
vibrations of the universe.

At the time I thought it was a phase. My mother was always talking (tongue-in-
cheek?) about her "parking angel" and burning incense, so I thought he had
just picked up that part of her personality.

Turns out he had (and still has, many years later) schizophrenia so he was
genuinely using his considerable intelligence to try and make sense of what he
saw, heard and felt, drawing on any "truth" he could find.

It really put me off religion and spirituality for a very long time. If these
concepts weren't out there and accepted by so many people, maybe he would have
been diagnosed and treated sooner and be in a better place today. I don't
know.

These days I do think some amount of religion/spirituality is positive, and I
think in total it makes the world a better place, but if I ever felt that kind
of epiphany personally I know I would head straight to the nearest mental
hospital.

~~~
kruhft
This is an interesting read on the difference of views between the Western and
African views of 'mental illness' from an African (Witch) Doctor after
visiting some western mental hospitals:

    
    
        http://www.wakingtimes.com/2014/08/22/shaman-sees-mental-hospital/
    

tl;dr: Most of what we view as mental illness they view as the birth or
awakening of a 'healer' and should be treated that way for proper acceptance
of the person into society and eventual recoverey.

~~~
kenneth_reitz
Yeah, I read that article a lot.

~~~
makmanalp
And what was your conclusion on it, now that you had an experience and came
out of it safe and sound? I don't have any serious mental issues, but the
thought of having any and the stigma around them honestly terrifies me. (And
reading stories like yours does the opposite) And so while I'm not behind the
woo woo of the article, I do like the gentler approach to treating the ill.

If you're mentally ill, "oh weird, that's happening to me" seems like a better
state of mind to be in than to be terrified, ashamed and dealing with the
petty indignities of being a patient at a clinic. Though I guess modern mental
health clinics are much more human than they used to be. Thoughts?

------
protothomas
A well written and brutally honest article - the author should be commended as
this kind of honesty is what's needed in beginning to address mental health
issues. I did feel the last throwaway point "don't date the crazy chick" let
it down slightly - by his own hypothesis she too was suffering (bad) mental
health issues and blithely shifting blame to her seems a little off.

~~~
watty
I'm curious what kind of drugs were involved. Crazy chick, traveling the
world, doing shamanistic rituals (which often use drugs), sleep depriving
oneself until hallucinating, etc.

He doesn't say it outright but had he not taken part in these damaging things,
he may not have had the psychotic episode and wouldn't know he was bipolar.

[http://www.elle.com/beauty/health-
fitness/advice/a14193/ayah...](http://www.elle.com/beauty/health-
fitness/advice/a14193/ayahuasca-drug/)

[http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2521132/DMT-
spirit-m...](http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2521132/DMT-spirit-
molecule-drug-used-Shamanic-ceremonies-sweeping-country.html)

~~~
bshimmin
I thought this too, I won't deny it. I suppose two counterpoints would be:

1) If you really can work days and days on end without feeling tired or
feeling the need for sleep (as someone who works very, very excessive hours, I
can safely say I spend most of that time _yearning_ for my bed), in all
likelihood you are going to come crashing down at some point;

2) You can definitely start hallucinating purely from lack of sleep, after
"only" a couple of days, without the assistance of any hallucinogenic drugs.

------
nnq
Side note on the "mystic flavor" yoga (as oppose to plain "mindfullness
meditation" and "yoga for back pains") and other "eastern" spirituality
things: I think there's a reason why there are so many initiation ceremonies
and tasks that one was/is traditionally put to do before going-off-the-deep-
end, and why ancient hindus saw being a yogi as a path for one that was of a
certain age and already had a family and proved itself capable of functioning
in society - _to weed out anyone with preexisting mental health conditions._
You even see this pattern in the story of Buddha's life - he was a socially
capable young prince born in a loving family and had no frustrations and most
material needs fully satisfied. And also for the zen philosophy attitude of
"but don't take these things too seriously" \- _to prevent people from
actually "drowning" in these mystical visions and loosing any contact with
reality._

Overall I think that _a lot_ of people would benefit from the occasional
mystical perspective on life. It's awesome for creative problem solving! And
most people have become a bit too secular and boring. But if they go on and
apply the "work hard on it and take it seriously" pattern to spirituality
they'll just go and OD on it.

The "westernly refined eastern spirituality" seems as close to the original
thing as purified cocaine is to chewed coca leaves: very different
concentrations, very different use scenarios. How can it _not_ go wrong for
the more psychology sensitive individuals among us?

People should go and read/listen some of _Allan Watts '_ book/recordings. You
can try starting with this:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8130_-3d3PA](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8130_-3d3PA)
. He had some good ideas on how to use an occasional mystical perspective to
enrich one's life, without taking it too seriously and completely loosing it.
Mind it, I don't agree with most of his ideas, but they are still better than
what others are selling.

~~~
yahyaheee
Upvote as well. My personal mystical experiences have been very positive in my
life. My friends and I call it "cleaning out the cobwebs" and do it a couple
times a year. And yes this stuff is not good for people with mental illness,
but let's not throw it away all together. Psychedelics have an incredible
promise to heal, and have helped me substantially with my own trauma. However
they should be used in chorus with a certified therapist. Beyond that I get a
little agitated when people feel that none of it is of any substance and we
already "know" reality. I think we are actually very far from understanding
the nature of reality and these experiences may hold legitimate truths in
them. Let's not be reductionists and keep an open mind

~~~
kenneth_reitz
This was me, six months ago.

~~~
ggreer
But unlike the parent commenter, didn't you have hypomanic episodes before
going down that path? I think most who do that sort of thing don't end up in a
hospital. At worst, they end up following Deepak Chopra.

Also, thank you for sharing your experience. It takes courage to talk about
one's mental issues. And thank you for requests. It's crazy useful!

------
wife2715
Almost the exact same thing happened to my wife recently. As somebody who
experienced this from the "other side" it is truly frightening. It nearly tore
my family apart.

Even now, months later, not everything is back to 100% normal. My wife still
occasionally shows signs of her episode and is on medication (although we have
transitioned to a low dosage of a more forgiving drug). The most obvious
problem is a stubborn insistence that what is going on in her head right now
is the only reasonable option and any discussion otherwise is an active
attempt to undermine her (i.e. a conspiracy against her). This transcends
normal disagreements. She also still has trouble sleeping.

At the time she had her breakdown she constructed an elaborate and paranoid
fantasy inside her head that everybody was out to get her (including close
family members and myself). This was tightly wound with inscrutable religious
imagery and governmental conspiracy.

It was terrifying and I had her committed to the psychiatric unit (this is
what nearly destroyed our relationship).

The most frightening aspect of the whole thing is that she was 100% convinced
she was right at the time. Her logical reasoning facilities simply broke down.
There was no reasoning with her. In fact, if anything, trying to talk to her
using logic and reason aggravated the situation.

Even now, when she looks back, she can see how strange it must have been for
everybody else, but she's still struggling because her brain is telling her
she was "on the right side" of this problem the whole time.

This can happen to anybody, and it's nobody's fault. Sometimes, shit happens.
Nobody should be ashamed of this. Take care of yourselves and others. Most of
all, get a good night's sleep and eat well!

------
cmrx64
> Sleep is _really_ important.

This cannot be overstated enough, I think, beyond just the effects of severe
sleep deprivation. It's very true in my personal experience with major
depression as well.

Also good to do: eat well, get exercise, get sunlight. Minds don't exist in
isolation from the body, it's all the same sack of chemicals.

~~~
IndianAstronaut
I wish we would stop praising or making light of sleep deprivation. We need to
stop thinking that sleeping a lot is a sign of laziness.

~~~
afarrell
Some universities (cough *MIT cough) have a habit of saying "sleep is for the
weak" and that part of their culture needs to change.

~~~
ArkyBeagle
Engineering schools still have the bones of being military academies.
Selecting for people who don't need a lot of sleep is important to militaries.

MIT, unlike say, Texas A&M, was founded as a polytechnic and not as an
explicit military academy but I'd bet there's still some of that orientation
in its DNA.

------
arca_vorago
My main scientific interest is in how much of this kind of mental problem is
genetic, and how much is not. In particular, I have felt for quite some time
now that those who are raised very religiously are much more likely to have
mental issues and have problems thinking fully rationally/logically.

I am a combat vet with mild ptsd, but I was very religious before the war. I
am now not just an athiest, but I am antithiest, and during what I call my
"descartes reset" I had to relearn many things I thought I "knew". I
eventually realized that while in general I was fairly smart, there were
entire areas of life that being raised religious effectively neutered any
logical thinking. As a result, I feel like I am intellectualy a teenager,
because so much of my early years were wasted with this religious
indoctrination, and to me the key is that in many/most cases, forcing children
into religion is very mich indoctrination. I recognize some of the techniques
the military uses in theirs!

Of course the genetic angle is an important one that I hope cheaper and more
broadly available sequencing can help with, because some people
arenpredisposed to these kinds of mental breaks and can be told they are at
higher risk if they do drugs, dont sleep, etc.

That being said, living in the bible belt, the connection between religion and
mental health interests me just as much.

~~~
majewsky
> "descartes reset"

I love that word. Especially because studying Descartes in high school has
also shaped my world view very strongly.

------
auvrw
> Sleep is really important.

so true. remember it's cumulative, too, so you can't miss a bunch of sleep,
sleep 8hrs one night and then be alright.

>This can happen to anyone, even you.

not as concerned a/b this, but i s'p so.

>Don't date the crazy [person]!

totally date the person you feel a connection with, and don't worry a/b
labeling them, yourself, or anyone else w/ such a gross, pejorative label as
"crazy". do remain true to yourself under any & all circumstances. travel, in
particular, can be tricky, depending on the time of year, especially.

> That is unlikely to happen again

this is a catch-22: it's as unlikely to happen as one is convinced that it
could happen and remains vigilant.

thanks for Requests and stay safe!

~~~
kenneth_reitz
I'm using the humorous/endearing form of crazy :)

~~~
auvrw
i get that, and i'm probably oversensitive. there is some semi-açcurate
analogy to be made w/ the use of racial epithets w/in and outside of racial
groups here. playfulness can be fine (to a point) in polite company, but it's
helpful to be a little more guarded w/ language in open forums.

idk, i just recently had an experience with overhearing a conversation that
used not just "crazy" but specifically "bipolar" in a way that made me feel
uncomfortable/marginalized. that's on me for being oversensitive, but it's
totally on other ppl/society for not recognizing that "mentally ill" ppl do a
lot of useful and producive things, that w/ proper care it's possible to do
just a/b anything someone w/o a (diagnosed) condition can do, and for lumping
an actually variegated an nonhomogeneous group of ppl together under a few
easy labels.

uuugh, enough hn for a while, one way or another.

------
throwaway172648
Im very happy to see this on the top of hn. I had a very similar experience
but do not talk about it at all because the stigma is so strong.

A major problem with the conversation in mental health is that having
thoughtful or well formed opinions about the subject can incriminate you. I
have a tremendous respect for anyone that is willing to talk openly about it.
I am no that brave.

~~~
joepie91_
Serious question: have you considered publishing it anonymously?

If you've run into issues with that idea (like being concerned about
unintentionally revealing hints about your identity, or how/where to publish
it, etc.), I'd happily try and help out - my e-mail is admin@cryto.net.

------
davycro
A courageous story. I felt the author captured the pace and psychotic features
of a manic episode. Call me a terrible person, but I chuckled when I read
about the "Dynamo algorithm to replicate life". I can imagine the author
wandering around the hospital with the whitepaper in hand demanding that
doctors read it.

------
stickfigure
Eerily similar to this recent story from This American Life, which
unfortunately has a less happy ending:

[http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-
archives/episode/579/m...](http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-
archives/episode/579/my-damn-mind)

TL;DL: Man goes into a manic state, checks himself into a hospital, and gets
shot by police.

~~~
kenneth_reitz
I was tased :(

~~~
jzwinck
How did that happen? And what if anything do you now think about the
permissive attitude of some people toward tazing? E.g. did you find any
lasting effects?

By the way, hi. I enjoyed your talk at PyConSG a little before this all
happened.

~~~
kenneth_reitz
It was extremely traumatizing. I felt electric shocks and tingles in my body
for a week afterwards (that may have been unrelated), and had massive anxiety
around electric-sounding noises, like cicadas.

It would probably be less traumatizing to a person in a normal state of mind,
but I'm not certain. It was absolutely terrifying.

~~~
baus
This is terrible. I'm sorry.

------
w_t_payne
I already hold Kenneth in great esteem because of his work on Requests and
Clint, both of which I make use of and admire.

This post amplifies my respect for him as a human being.

I welcome posts like this (and there seem to have been quite a few recently)
because I really want to be able to talk openly about mental health to gain
clarity and understanding.

I am particularly interested in issues around arousal, focus and mania, since
these affect our profession so profoundly. (I wonder how many of us in this
forum owe our professional skill and aptitude to a predisposition towards
hypomania and intense focus).

It feels like our society is moving in a positive direction here -- a move
which I applaud and welcome.

The mind is powerful, wonderful and strange, and we need to treat it with
respect and understanding -- something that can only come about by being open
and honest.

------
michaelwww
This is an excellent article and I applaud Kenneth for writing it because it
will help someone who reads it. Coincidentally, after reading this I came
across another article about bipolar illness and how it has wrecked the life
of a once famous woman:

The best African American figure skater in history is now bankrupt and living
in a trailer (Debi Thomas) [https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/social-
issues/the-myste...](https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/social-issues/the-
mystery-of-why-the-best-african-american-figure-skater-in-history-went-
bankrupt-and-lives-in-a-
trailer/2016/02/25/a191972c-ce99-11e5-abc9-ea152f0b9561_story.html)

------
mooseburger
I am oddly disappointed. I thought the article would be about more "relatable"
mental problems like depression or low self-esteem, rather than a full on
psychotic break. Sometimes I wonder if programmers are afflicted with the
above plus anxiety more than the average. It certainly has affected me as
someone who grew up nerdy and bullied, but most of my coworkers seem pretty
happy.

~~~
Confusion
You probably also look 'pretty happy' to your coworkers. They experience you
as you experience them: without any knowledge of what goes on in their minds.
Conversation is required to probe deeper. There may be many that have, or at
least understand, your problems.

------
mycroftiv
Threee years ago I experienced a very similar manic episode with delusional
thinking, but in my case, it was absolutely the best thing that ever happened
to me. The creative energy and imaginative thought patterns I experienced then
transformed my life in a positive way. I know this is an atypical experience
and I was lucky to dodge many possible negative consequences of actions based
on delusional belief systems. For me, the key was maintaining my social
connections and using the perceptions and reactions of other people to keep
myself connected to shared reality.

------
mystikal
A lot of people think that believing you're Jesus is some kind of grandiose
delusion, but in the case of manic psychosis, it's simply the logical
conclusion of all the super intense messages from the universe you're
receiving.

Enlightenment is hell.

~~~
kenneth_reitz
Exactly! It is the inevitable truth you are being constantly presented with.
You are forced to accept it.

~~~
davycro
I love this, well said

I knew a bipolar patient who believed he was a shaman. In his last manic
episode he was found wandering outside naked in minus twenty temperatures. He
said he had transcended to a higher consciousness where the cold no longer
affected him.

I interviewed him a few months later to see if he was taking his medicine. He
was, but said he didn't like the medicines because they took away his special
powers.

He had frost bite on his hands and feet from the incident by the way.

~~~
kenneth_reitz
Hah! I did exactly this, but far less extreme. I would walk barefoot on the
street, where the sun had been painfully heating the pavement, and adjusting
my psyche so I could not feel the pain.

According to the books, an excellent meditative practice.

------
fishnchips
I personally found out that coding before sleep is a horrible thing for you -
your mind keeps working on problems long after you close your IDE.

~~~
hacker_9
I agree your mind doesn't stop, but sometimes I solve my problems in that
moment before sleep, I think because I can direct all my energy to it (even
eyes are closed, so no visual processing needed).

Though the tired mind is often very keen to simply recurse over thoughts
you've already had opposed to think of new ones. If you find you can't stop
yourself going over the day though, then 10-15 mins of meditation, where you
force yourself to concentrate on clearing your mind, can stop these thoughts
so you can sleep. Do this every night for a few weeks and it becomes second
nature.

~~~
dmoney
I've found that reading sci-fi/fantasy before going to sleep helps me
transition to sleep mode. I think it's because sci-fi problems are really
somebody else's problem, so my brain can let them drop when I put the book
down.

~~~
joepie91_
I really couldn't agree with this more. Reading before you sleep is _so
important_ to getting a good night's rest. Using a physical book or an e-ink
screen, anything that doesn't emit light itself.

Seriously, invest $150 into getting a good e-reader, if you don't have one
already. It's well worth the sleep benefits, potentially even more than a good
mattress (for a programmer, anyway).

~~~
fishnchips
One thing I personally found useful was f.lux - an OS X app that changes the
temperature of your screen when it gets dark outside. Sounds trivial but makes
a huge difference.

~~~
majewsky
I use red sunglasses for that (sometimes advertised as "UV protection"). The
advantage is that it works on all devices, even analog ones. :)

------
Xc43
He is lucky. All of you without mental problems are quite lucky.

Kenneth, if you are reading this: I feel you man.

I had a similar experience to you. Similar fleeting views... without a crazy
chick. I was the crazy one. What I did not say so far is that I too am lucky.
My psychiatrist said that I was in the 1% of the 1% (I am not sure of the
percentages). Those who recover among those who suffer from schizophrenia.
Now, 4 years later, it seems that I made a full recovery. Yet I lost 2 years
of my life to it. Two years of my life where I did not take medication. You
are older than me, you accomplished so much more. I still have to get my C.S.
degree. I am in my last semester. I now somewhat look up to you. Before
reading this article, I had no idea of your existence. Now I found an
inspiration I can relate to. Thank you for sharing.

------
TrevorJ
>A breakthrough occurred when I slipped the doctor a piece of paper containing
the URL to this website. This gave him a really good idea of who I actually
was, and was a very useful tool in helping him diagnose me.

Is it expecting too much of our health care professionals to assume that they
should be I don't know, spending five minutes on google looking for this
information themselves? What about interviewing family and friends? How do you
expect to treat a mental health patient without a baseline in the first place?
This tidbit did not instill any confidence in me whatsoever.

~~~
kenneth_reitz
Trust me, where I live, less that 0.1% of the population has any form of web
presence, other than a Facebook profile.

I live in a rural town in the country of Virginia. Lots of confederate flags
and rednecks around these parts :)

The doctor did spent much time on the phone with my parents, however, and was
well aware of their claims. Having tangible proof of the things I've normally
been able to accomplish, however, takes that to a whole other level.

~~~
zzleeper
I dunno why but I always had the idea you lived either on SFO or Seattle. Well
at least you can ski a lot as you're probably close to WV!

On a more related note, thanks a lot for your great posts, and for the
simplicity and clarity of your code :)

------
josscrowcroft
This brings to mind something I read by Ken Wilbur, about "Waking Up" vs.
"Growing Up".

In a nutshell, as I understand it: Waking Up without Growing Up - like
spiritual bypass - can lead to delusion, psychosis, inflicting unconscious
wounds on ourselves and the world... Advancement in Waking Up, which I suppose
we need for ultimate fulfilment, doesn't by itself cause progress in Growing
Up, which we need to function as part of our world...

I've seen friends who started earnestly seeking spirituality around the same
time as me go deep into madness (with spiritual names), for example dealing
with 'entities' they claim to be real, yet are not part of shared reality, and
I suppose failing to see that their experience is actually mirroring their
inner state.

My own brief touches with psychosis triggered by intense - and arguably
premature - spiritual work have emphasised for me the importance of remaining
grounded in the daily life of being human, doing that basic work first to
become emotionally literate, calm, healthy and self-nurturing.

What concerns me is that people throw the baby out with the bathwater when
they stifle or medicate their spiritual longings due to fear of (or experience
with) mental illness. Mental health seems like it could be a prerequisite for
facing the challenges of sincere growth, but not a reason to avoid
spirituality.

I believe Ram Dass said _" You gotta be somebody before you can be nobody."_

~~~
baus
> Mental health seems like it could be a prerequisite for facing the
> challenges of sincere growth, but not a reason to avoid spirituality.

Going through a severe bipolar episode, basically forced me to rethink my
entire life. I'm not saying it has been fun or easy, but I think when it is
said and done, I will be stronger for it.

------
exizt88
Could this have been prevented? Is there a reliable way to check on your
mental health status?

~~~
teamhappy
Psychosis is pretty hard to hide I think. Basically any doctor should find out
that "there's something going on" simply by having a conversation with you.
The same is probably true with family (they may notice you're "acting
weird/different" or something like that). If your friends are very spiritual
they might think this is normal of course, so maybe stick with
professionals/family.

I'm not sure about bipolar disorder and similar diseases, but I suspect
they're much more difficult to diagnose (but also a lot less scary than
psychosis).

~~~
xyzzy4
I had psychosis several years ago and I was pretty good at hiding it until the
point where I became hospitalized. The trick is you have to be acutely aware
of whether you are sounding crazy to others, and how you're being perceived.
You can think as many crazy thoughts as you want, as long as you don't express
them.

~~~
teamhappy
I don't know much about psychosis other than what I've told you. I saw a
therapist some time ago about anxiety/stress and that kind of thing and I
mentioned that I've googled the hell out of it already (bad idea!) and a long
list of really scary stuff came up (including psychosis). So I've mentioned
that stuff starting the list with psychosis and he laughed and said he would
have figured that out by now (and explained that I'd talk differently, etc.) I
know that he also works with homeless people/drug addicts, so I assume he met
1 or 2 people who actually suffer from psychosis.

Having said that; if people manage to hide schizophrenia, hiding psychosis is
probably also possible. But still, I think psychosis is not the kind of
disease you should worry about having without realizing it (unlike e.g.,
depression or bipolar disorder).

\---

BTW: You mention you were aware that your thoughts would seem crazy to others.
Were you also aware that they are crazy (or did they seem perfectly reasonable
to you at the time)?

~~~
xyzzy4
> BTW: You mention you were aware that your thoughts would seem crazy to
> others. Were you also aware that they are crazy (or did they seem perfectly
> reasonable to you at the time)?

They always seemed as "reasonable" as they've always been. Ideas like
solipsism, being God, free will, etc. And many more stupider and embarrassing
ones. They are often philosophical in nature and you can argue them in many
directions without reaching firm conclusions, whether you are having psychosis
or not.

The difference is that when I started to become manic and have psychosis, they
became about 100x more interesting and I had a very strong desire to share
them with people, which made a fool out of myself by doing so. When you have
psychosis you also misjudge social interactions a lot which makes it even
worse.

In the hospital when the psychosis was getting really bad, it's like reality
itself begins to break. For example I have very vivid memories of another
patient reading my thoughts and then saying them out loud. I'm still not sure
what happened there.

At work I was pretty good at keeping it under wraps, though.

------
randomname2
Interestingly the author states his symptoms started through a combination of
lack of sleep and dating a disturbed individual [1].

Such a diagnosis is possibly offensive, ableist and unscientific, however
there are many such anecdotal reports of people with (developing or fully
developed) mental illness pairing up.

While there is little evidence of such pairing up being a _cause_ (i.e. some
sort of "contagiousness", as explored in [2]), there _is_ some evidence that
people suffering from mental illness (including personality disorders) can be
attracted to one another [3].

[1] [http://www.kennethreitz.org/essays/purging-the-unexpected-
ne...](http://www.kennethreitz.org/essays/purging-the-unexpected-negative-a-
narcissistic-partner)

[2] [http://www.rawstory.com/2015/12/is-mental-illness-
contagious...](http://www.rawstory.com/2015/12/is-mental-illness-contagious/)

[3] [http://www.medicaldaily.com/law-attraction-mental-illness-
ma...](http://www.medicaldaily.com/law-attraction-mental-illness-
marriage-375268)

------
mathattack
I had a roommate who also had very serious mental health issues following a
heavy investigation into meditation. I never could piece out if there was any
causality - did the issues cause him to seek help from meditation, or did the
meditation cause the issues, or was it spurious? In the end it's a lot of
brain chemistry.

I appreciate courageous writers like the OP who help take the stigma away from
mental illness with their writing.

~~~
xyzzy4
Doing things that challenge your sense of reality can cause a lot of mental
health disturbances, especially when your brain isn't fully matured. So there
is a lot of correlation between the two.

------
mysticmode
This is quite interesting. Recently I was told by a friend about "Kundalini
Crisis". Basically Mentally unstable people doing kundalini and intense
meditation will lead them to a psychotic episode.

~~~
yahyaheee
Yea kundalini is known for this. Other forms of yoga and meditation are very
safe and healthy

------
maxander
Kudos to the author for this article; it takes real courage to write something
like this, and it will undoubtedly help many in similar places.

I'm inclined towards Buddhism and other spiritual weirdness as well, but I
recognize (and I hope that this article helps teach others) that this sort of
fun wisdom often comes at the expense of _groundedness_. There is much to be
said for being somewhat ungrounded- see every great leader and thinker that
was criticized in his or her time for being an out-of-touch idealist, or their
era's equivalent invective- but one can also find oneself losing many of the
"common sense" reference points that are important for dealing with day-to-day
existence. Human minds are messy things, and often generate absurd notions
that we all, mostly subconsciously, squash simply because they violate our
ideas about who we are and how the world works. Be "open" enough to take in
radical new spiritual ideas, and you're also open enough to take in a great
deal of fuzz.

This sort of openness doesn't need to take the form of metaphysical "woo"
(see, for instance, conspiracy theorists), but the belief that we're animals
living in a physical world is a useful one, since it lets us easily declare
invalid a large range of potentially harmful beliefs. _Perhaps_ its untrue,
but while our human urge to take nothing for granted is noble, it can easily
land us in trouble.

The "hacker" crowd is, stereotypically, full of bright individuals who like to
take nothing for granted, so I wouldn't be surprised if Reitz's story
represents a fairly common narrative. There's an interesting parallel; for
spiritual seekers, just like startup founders, its crucial to learn how to
balance oversized ambitions with the necessities of mere human existence- and
to rein themselves in, or even to give up the chase, when the latter becomes
seriously threatened.

------
dhubris
Good sleep hygiene definitely contributes to better mental health. Not bi-
polar, but struggle with depression. After my last crash a few years ago, I
was left curled up on the floor just saying I wanted to die. It took me about
a year to recover from that, and during most of that year I usually slept at
least 10 hours a night. It was definitely part of my recovery.

These days I'm usually between 7.5 to 8.5 hours. Having had a history of
insomnia I try and get on top of any sleeplessness issues pretty quickly.
Usually just taking melatonin for a week if I have a couple of nights in a row
with difficulty getting to sleep will fix it for me.

Also, if you suspect you might suffer from sleep apnoea then get it checked
out. The quality as well as quantity of your sleep is important.

------
kenneth_reitz
I added a new paragraph to describe the type of hallucinations I was
experiencing (since that's such an ambiguous word):

> The first time she left my apartment, I watched as a red/glowing infinitely-
> detailed sacred geometry adorned my plain white door. These are the types of
> hallucinations I would see upon occasion, especially after prolonged periods
> of meditation or excitement. These experiences were interpreted to be of
> deep spiritual significance. Most hallucinations were non-visual, however,
> and involved subtle sensations best described in yogic terms as "feeling the
> flow of pranic energy". The rest could be described as an explosion of
> mental imagery with remarkable resolution/clarity.

------
snikeris
This guy had a similar episode and wrote a book about it:

[http://www.amazon.com/And-Then-Thought-Was-Fish-
ebook/dp/B00...](http://www.amazon.com/And-Then-Thought-Was-Fish-
ebook/dp/B008DZEWF8)

------
tangled_zans
A very excellent read, thank you for sharing. I've experienced a very similar
thing about a year and a half ago, so it's always comforting to read about
someone else's experience!

I still remember it vividly now, I took exhausting notes during the process -
notes that I thought were full of pure spiritual brilliance - and which turned
out to be mostly mad gibberish in the end.

Among other things there were a few days that I spent convinced that I was a
character in a video game and I had to make sure that the game was
"entertaining" or else the "player" would "switch it off".

Some things were downright Lovecraftian in nature. Reading his stuff now, I'm
pretty sure that a lot of his stories were inspired by his own mental trips.
ie, one of my favorites:
[http://www.hplovecraft.com/writings/texts/fiction/hy.aspx](http://www.hplovecraft.com/writings/texts/fiction/hy.aspx)

But mostly it was full of that exhilarating rush of being connected to some
hidden truth that no one else has access to. I can see why it's hard for
people to just walk away from that when those visions feel so meaningful at
the time.

Anyway, well done for recovering! I guess a lot of people don't, which is
quite a disturbing thought - being stuck in that mental state forever - so
that makes us quite lucky.

------
baus
You're not alone: [http://baus.net/im-bipolar](http://baus.net/im-bipolar)

It is interesting that meditation was one of your triggers. Meditation and
mindful awareness is something I'm personally spending a lot of time on to
reverse the effects of bipolar -- specifically to slow racing thoughts and
dislocation from the moment. For me, I feel like it helps. Many things that
cause me anxiety I'm able to work out through meditation. For me, one of the
hard parts is just letting go.

------
nibs
I am saddened that after reading stories like this one, people remain
skeptical of fortifying water with Lithium. A study from the 90s [1] found
that rates of violent crime and suicide was much lower in Texas counties with
naturally occuring Lithium in their water, as opposed to demographically
identical ones with less. Lithium is an element that is implicated in Bipolar
Disorder and appears to affect critical brain functions. The public's
experience with Flouride makes people deeply skeptical, despite the obvious
objective proof [2] that it too contributes to superior quality of life.
Fortifying water with Lithium would have an immense effect on the wellbeing of
entire cities and cost relatively little. Huge impact potential.

[1]:
[http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1699579](http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1699579)
[2]: [http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/tooth-decay-calgary-
fl...](http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/tooth-decay-calgary-fluoride-
water-1.3450616)

~~~
masklinn
> I am saddened that after reading stories like this one, people remain
> skeptical of fortifying water with Lithium.

You start with that, next thing you know you're crop-dusting Miranda with G-23
(and we all know how that went).

More seriously, lithium has significant side-effects, lithium toxicity can
occur both acutely and chronically, and lithium toxicity isn't always much
higher than therapeutic doses (especially as it's compounded by sodium
depletion). And there's a significant risk of fetal toxicity.

Normalising medical lithium use sounds like a great idea (especially as part
of a wider normalisation of treatment of mental distress and illness), but it
doesn't sound like the best substance to spike water with.

~~~
nibs
I spent 20 minutes trying to find this reference and could not find anything
convincingly close enough. It is a sci-fi reference or something that happened
in our world? The only thing I could find was FireFly related. My concern in
this case would be chronic toxicity, which does as you say occur in some cases
at lower than pharmaceutical dosage levels. I would only be campaigning for
raising Lithium in towns <25% percentile to a level found in towns in the 75%
percentile. This would be relatively simple to communicate to people, and you
could point to a road down the street from which people's Grandparents grew up
and demonstrate that you would simply be replicating amounts found in that
town naturally. I think what is more disturbing is the concept that most
people have no idea what is in their water, not that we could arbitrage
minerals between different towns and try to come to some kind of optimal
mineral content. In the study I reference, the spread between "highest" and
"lowest" Lithium content is between ~2000x and ~1000x less than is currently
used in the pharmaceutical. So if <10% of Lithium patients have any signs of
toxicity (real number, around 10%) and 1% have life threatening toxicity, we
could (perhaps not perfect math) assume that only 0.001% of people would
experience a similar issue in dosages of 1000x less. My thought is that
dosages at that level are akin to living in an area with high Lithium
naturally, or eating lots of seafood, and that people would at least consider
it, if you could reduce the rate of suicide by 50%. I could be wrong though,
lots of opposition to this thesis, including here, including among people who
no doubt know far more science than I do.

~~~
masklinn
> I spent 20 minutes trying to find this reference and could not find anything
> convincingly close enough. It is a sci-fi reference or something that
> happened in our world? The only thing I could find was FireFly related.

It is a scifi/firefly reference. Spoilers ahead for the Serenity movie.

Miranda is a planet on a far far "edge" of the Verse (the "known universe" in
Firefly) and considered fictional before the events of Serenity as the
Alliance had basically struck it from records (and it was deep in "Reaver
space" where people of the Verse don't go without a serious death wish). An
Alliance research program was tried there: G-23 Paxilon Hydrochlorate ("Pax")
had been found to reduce aggression, and on Miranda it was tried on a large
scale, spread throughout the planet via the air processors system.

The compound pacified 99.9% of the population so much they basically stopped
all drive. They stopped working, talking, feeding, moving and ultimately
leaving.

The remaining 0.1% blew a gasket and went the exact opposite becoming ultra-
violent self-mutilating merciless and fearless animalistic — but not stupid —
monsters: the reavers, which have plagued the Verse since.

~~~
nibs
Disturbingly relevant. It would be too easy to think we could just change the
water and solve Bipolar, but the concept that a small percentage of people
would rise up against it violently is not hard to imagine either.

------
brbsix
This story is so raw and real that you'd naturally expect it to be anonymous.
Pretty incredible that it is not, and you've just got to respect that. I think
this is something many people can relate to, if not in their own lives, at
least in others around them. The whole torrid affair sounds like a bit like a
never-ending ketamine and LSD fueled-bender. Yikes...

------
malyk
I wonder if a "sudden" interest in eastern religions/philosophy is a precursor
to bi-polar diagnoses often. My aunt went through something very similar where
she was just my normal aunt, then started going deep into buddhism, then had a
bad mental break, wound up in the hospital, and was then diagnosed with
bipolar disorder.

------
mbrock
Thanks to Kenneth for sharing, and good to hear he's back.

The title seems to be funny because it highlights that mental health mostly
isn't about discrete erroneous events, but about the ability for a mind to
cope within a world...

I was in love with a bipolar woman. We shared an apartment for a few months,
not too long after she had emerged from a manic period.

Her mania came on when she was alone in a new foreign city, used psychedelics,
and became close friends with several people who were... firmly distanced from
the reality-based community, let's say. She slept little, hallucinated, had
strong ideas that all kinds of random events were connected, centered around
her own destiny, and all that stuff.

I'm also pretty weird. Like Kenneth, I could attribute much of my erratic
productivity to periods of hypomania. Never had any real mania. I'm very
interested in semi-esoteric stuff like Buddhist philosophy, Zen Masters,
insight meditation, and other things you might guess at.

I had a period when I was trying to read kind of arcane philosophy like
Deleuze & Guattari's _Anti-Oedipus_ and _A Thousand Plateaus_... I remember
being in my dorm room drinking too much coffee, reading that book or David
Foster Wallace's _Infinite Jest_ , or some pirate PDF about Spinoza, or
whatever I could find...

The D&G books are subtitled "Capitalism and Schizophrenia" and one thing they
do is kind of hijack the term "schizophrenia" and use it to designate
something like the subconscious creative processes of the mind that seek to
connect things, create these proliferating conceptual networks, build ideas
atop ideas, change things, experiment, become different, etc...

I'm reminded of this because I'm thinking of the way hypomania can be a
"positive" and "productive" state as long as you can maintain your health and
groundedness... it seems related to how I sometimes feel like I need a slight
bit of some kind of insanity or delusions of importance in order to have novel
ideas.

Like, I'm thinking about a new kind of database, that I imagine is going to be
really useful, beautiful, and novel. Sometimes I get what I jokingly call "too
much coffee syndrome" and my rather simple idea starts to branch out into some
impossibly grand project... like, I don't know, maybe to implement stored
procedures, I need to make a new stack-based language with type inference...
and content-addressed values... with a new kind of source control system...
and a new kind of IDE that will be usable on mobile devices... and so on until
I haven't eaten all day...

So in that whole sphere of my life, the idea-generating, novelty-demanding me
who wants to reformulate basic parameters, invent totally new things,
revolutionize everything, explain to everyone the new better way... etc...
that's something I have to manage. My ideas aren't _insane_ , I could explain
them patiently, and I realize I don't have time to implement them... but the
restlessness of my thoughts can be painful.

So anyway, partly because of this restlessness and tendencies toward some mild
mania, I've taken an interest in mind pacification, especially through
meditation.

Meditation is attractive because it also comes with connections to all kinds
of fascinating theories about the mind, reality, and who knows what, and
cultural treasures like Buddhist sutras, Tibetan art, and all kinds of
stuff...

Here's a pretty plausible scenario:

1\. You feel restless and anxious.

2\. You get into meditation.

3\. You hear about "Zen" and start studying.

4\. You learn that its founder taught the Lankavatara Sutra.

5\. You pick up Red Pine's translation from a local hippie store.

6\. You sit and read Mahamati's praise to the Buddha:

> Like a flower in the sky / the world neither ceases nor arises / in the
> light of your wisdom and compassion / it neither is nor isn't

> Transcending mind and consciousness / all things are like illusions / in the
> light of your wisdom and compassion / they neither are nor aren't

> The world is but a dream / neither permanent nor transient / in the light of
> your wisdom and compassion / it neither is nor isn't

> There is no self in being or things / no barriers of passion or knowledge /
> in the light of your wisdom and compassion / it neither is nor isn't

That's fascinating stuff! What does it mean? Clearly it is deeply important,
since people say it's the whole basis for Zen, and Zen meditation is obviously
deep and profound, since the whole industry of mindfulness tacitly reveres all
of Buddhism...

This comment is probably a good demonstration of my mind when it's bordering
on "too much coffee." I kind of forgot how I was going to tie all this stuff
together, and now I'm really hungry.

In the relationship I mentioned, I took on a role of helping, which worked
fairly well. We made sure to get enough sleep, to get out and be kind of
healthy, to just ground ourselves in different ways. It was an educational
period of my life, because it helped me realize I need to take care of myself,
too.

------
chris_wot
I wonder if I'm going through a bit of a manic state right now. I've just had
surgery, had to take a relatively large amount of of oxycontene to deal with
the severe pain, I may consider that I can change things in an organization
going through turmoil (though I really can't), I'm trying to fix heaps of bugs
in an important code base, but sleeping and having weird dreams like believing
that Rolf Harris is my relative (bloody disturbing) and waking up feeling
disturbed, but in pain.

Whatever it is, it's horrible. I'm sorry the author went through worse than
this!

------
ck2
Wait, I've never heard of hallucinations from bipolar disorder and these
sounded super heavy duty? Was this something more?

But I am really glad they got help, even responsible enough to get help.

~~~
mehwoot
Well he also said he basically didn't sleep for 10 days. I think that would
contribute a lot.

~~~
ck2
Again I'm confused because I've not heard of bipolar disorder allowing people
to go weeks without sleep.

Just a wild guess but this sounds like something more and bipolar was an
effect not the cause.

~~~
cmullinstu
There's different severities of bipolar disorder and manic episodes can worsen
to the point of hallucinations and psychosis when left untreated. I've read
quite a few books on bipolar and lack of sleep for many days and
hallucinations are more common than many people realize. Myself included until
I read books on the subject.

~~~
ck2
Interesting, thanks for the enlightenment.

~~~
cmullinstu
No problem, if you're interested in reading about this I highly recommend the
book An Unquiet Mind. It's a true story about a psychologist who finds out
later in life she is bipolar. It's interesting and goes in depth into her
manic episodes. I strongly recommend it.

------
nbulkzz
Scrutinizing deductive and inductive logic can induce manic states too - look
at Cantor, Godel, and Boltzmann.

------
ahoyfuckers
Hi everyone, One of my friends in college was recently diagnosed with Bipolar
disorder. I don’t personally know any other people with the disorder, but I
wanted to learn more about it directly from the people (patients, friends,
family, healthcare providers) who have experienced the gaps in
treatment/management for the disorder. Hoping some of you out there might be
willing to participate in this anonymous questionnaire. Thanks.

[http://goo.gl/forms/hzG1bPiorR](http://goo.gl/forms/hzG1bPiorR)

------
libeclipse
Awake for 12+ days? Doesn't that mean he's broken the world record?

------
mrthrowaway123
I don't know where I stand on his conclusions but I went through a
manic/psychotic episode once too and yes, it's really an impacting experience
to think "I went literally crazy". So, in my case, before having a psychotic
event I had already seen it before because my mother is diagnosed with Bipolar
Affective Disorder too(not that this means I knew what was going on, just that
I already had seen mental health issues), I was in my later adolescent years
smoking lots of cannabis, had experimented LSD and Cocaine, too, besides the
drinking. When I was high sometimes I'd had this very weird sensation of my
mind going in loops sometimes which now I see as slowly getting more and more
detached/unstable.. So I lived like this and I was also into Nietzsche and of
course over time I was getting more into exoteric stuff etc and eventually I
went crazy, I was never the best sleeper but never did streaks of being waken
up like he mentioned, so, not really sleeping is really red alert and I'd say
that the first time he was awaken for days he was probably already going down
the cliff.

The thing with me that I'd like to express tho, and one that I'm skeptical is
some of the conclusions, backfits and categorizations made. After going
through that I was diagnosed as bipolar too and was prescribed Zyprexa and
Trileptal... So, I took then but then eventually I stopped, I tried to be
careful with it my way, like paying extra-atention to my thoughts and being
rigorous in logic and rationality, my mother, of course would freak out about
this, specially since she lives with it and takes heavy medications that from
time to time need adjustments, I also offered to go to a psychologist
regularly so my state would be checked. It's been about 9 years and I'm fine,
I took this decision maybe out of skepticism that the event meant my brain was
'deffective'("Bipolar Disorder is something I've had for a while, and will
have for the rest of my life"), that the event couldn't simply be a result of
the drugs and the psychiatrist would dismiss that, and also because I was
pretty sure some convulsions I had after the fact were linked to the medicine
and the psychiatrist would dismiss that too, even though that could mean a
life hazzard for me(I still have scars of convulsing in the middle of the
street on my way back from work, gladly I didn't have a car then). So, yeah, I
have a little bit of mistrust of pure psychiatry even though my mother lives
with it and I have lived through this, and I think of myself as completely
normal, I just think the brain isn't such a fragile software that's easily
corrupted and then it's just glitched, this stuff evolved over millenia,
right? It could be that I'm setting myself for tragedy... But I don't know, at
least for the moment I still think the old ways of dealing with mental
distress and how people used to think about it apply... e.g.: A person can be
made to go crazy if you trap his mind/body, or that someone can make himself
go crazy if he isn't able to handle stuff and this doesn't necessarily mean
this is a chronic case(although, sure, if it's going out of control or if it
won't be contained by other means, medicate it), that would be psychology,
reflecting, thinking and also spirituality(maybe not the wacko one tho). I'm
still into philosophy, "eastness", understanding religious/spiritual matters
etc(definitely not in a mystic/supernatural way nowadays, though), and I still
have my drinks and so on... I have a friend who's a psychologist and also
takes this view of psyche(which I just checked that means "spirit") over
medicine, and we joke that "well, at least you found the meaning of life once
and that was it, if you're getting that every other month that's probably an
issue"

So anyway, maybe it's irresponsible to talk about this at this stage(e.g.: 6
months after), but I think it should be said, maybe you're fine and the drugs
and bad decisions(yeah, _DO_ sleep and if you can't go check yourself) and a
fragile/immature mind sent you there. Maybe I'm wrong and I'm a ticking bomb
for a manic episode and it's gonna be a hard lesson.. But I do feel like I
have a very strong mind now and I really like it. So, yeah, that's my
experience :)

------
sitkack
I recommend getting a sauna, definitely helps if used before bed-time. I love
sleep.

I was serious. Not getting enough sleep is a precursor for many ills. A sauna
will definitely help.

------
astazangasta
Pyschosis is not an accident, and it is not caused by kundalini yoga (although
in this case indirectly).

It is my belief that psychosis is the product of spiritual crisis. Humans are,
fundamentally, mythological creatures - we have deeply-held beliefs and myths
that guide our basic thinking, and we hold onto these firmly. When something
challenges these fundamentals (usually some horrible trauma), we slip into
spiritual crisis, our root becomes undone, and the mind attempts to
reorganize.

During this period, the mythological root comes to the surface, is exposed,
and explored and acted out through psychosis. This seems dangerous and
alarming if we treat it as hallucination or nonsense, but is actually the mind
seeking a healthier organization. A lot of the features of the psyche can be
seen in the patterns of psychosis (the ego showing up as seeing yourself as
Jesus/Metatron, etc.), which are quite regular if you read different people's
experiences.

I don't know Kenneth, but I'll speculate on what happened here. Kenneth took a
yoga class, met an amazing woman who took him on a magical journey of yoga,
drugs and great sex. Poor robot Kenneth, who had been so sure he was a hard-
edged science man, could not deal with this. My god, was there really
something to the world of "woo-woo spirituality" that he had so derided? Could
it really be a source of happiness and fulfillment?

This upended his belief system. Psychosis proceeded - the mind moved towards
this new possibility, then away from it back to the familiar. No; Kenneth
likes programming, and hates yoga, all is well.

Perhaps it had actually resolved by the time Kenneth started taking drugs;
perhaps he has not resolved anything (I think neuroleptics prolong and
interrupt this process, they certainly don't cure you).

This is an unconventional understanding of psychosis, but I believe this to be
a better and more likely avenue for resolving crises than the "just shut up
and take your pills" approach.

~~~
ascorbic
Bipolar disorder and schizophrenia (the main causes of psychosis) are genetic,
not caused by "spiritual crisis". The spiritual stuff is a symptom of
psychosis, not a cause. "Heritability for schizophrenia was 64% and for
bipolar disorder 59%."

[http://europepmc.org/articles/pmc3879718](http://europepmc.org/articles/pmc3879718)

~~~
fiatjaf
You don't know that.

~~~
ascorbic
The paper that I cited is just one of dozens if not hundreds of studies on the
heritability of the diseases. The evidence is overwhelming. Anecdotally,
almost everyone I know with serious mental illness has at least one family
member who does too.

~~~
fiatjaf
The statement that 'Bipolar disorder and schizophrenia (the main causes of
psychosis) are genetic, not caused by "spiritual crisis"' is not backed by the
results of the paper.

~~~
ascorbic
Yes it is. That's what heritable means.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heritability](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heritability)

~~~
fiatjaf
There are many things you don't know and don't know you don't know, that is
complicated to explain. I, for sure, am ignorant of a lot too, but at least I
know that estimating heritability on the occurrence of bipolar disorder
doesn't prove that these disorders are "caused" (you used this word, while the
article doesn't) by genetic factors.

~~~
ascorbic
They don't use that word because that's what heritability implies. The fact it
has a genetic cause doesn't mean that everyone with those genes will have
bipolar disorder.

Of course I don't know everything. I am however more inclined to believe
things with a lot of evidence (such as the genetic basis for schizophrenia and
bipolar) rather than those without evidence (that it's caused by spiritual
crisis).

------
alexashka
I find the conclusion of 'this can happen to anyone' to be so delusional,
bordering on sad.

A guy believes in a bunch of non-sense, spends a year reading up on it and
taking it seriously, dates a quack with whom he screws with his mind by taking
dangerous substances and doing 'spiritual practices' and finally goes off the
rails...

His conclusion? Coulda happened to anyone! No Kenneth, it usually happens to
people who lack self-awareness and believe in healing crystals.

~~~
kenneth_reitz
This post mentions nothing of any substances.

And yes, it could happen to anyone. My solipsist philosophical interests were
intellectually sound, and far from non-sense. Mania, however, started to
slowly but drastically modify my mental model of the world, and a snowball
effect occurred.

~~~
alexashka
You're right, there was no direct mention of substances.

Can you with complete honesty say you did not engage in any substance use? The
fact that you went with 'post did not mention' as opposed to 'I did not use
substances' says it all doesn't it?

Furthermore:

"Around the same time, right after having gone to my first Kundalini Yoga
class, I ended up meeting (and falling in love with) a mesmerizing crazy chick
that guided me off-the-deep-end with this type of thinking: numerology,
synchronicity, manifestation, the mayan calendar, tarot, crystals, &c."

Tarot and crystals. Intellectually sound?

Ok then...

I don't mean to be on the offensive but you don't seem to wish to be honest
about the entire picture and end up concluding 'coulda been anyone', which's
simply not true.

Claims about the nature of losing your grasp of reality to the extent that you
have need to have some serious backing. You seem to be engaging in self-
rationalization rather than owning up to having made some mistakes and being
lucky for regaining your faculties.

This should be a cautionary tale - not a 'hey, cool story bro', I sincerely
hope you can see that.

~~~
DanBC
> don't mean to be on the offensive

You might want to try a bit harder.

Mental illness is not the result of dabbling in tarot or crystals. The
causalilty probably runs the other way. There's not much correlation between
tarot and mental illness.

~~~
alexashka
There are people who are mentally ill through no fault of there own.

There are people out there who at the very least significantly exacerbated
their condition via 'shamanic rituals' and 'kundalini practices' and then
some.

Kenneth has chosen to remain quiet when asked about his substance use. I rest
my case.

~~~
DanBC
Feel free to try to provide any kind of citation for this.

