
Magnet Ban Cleared - pcvarmint
http://zenmagnets.com/magnet-ban-cleared-game-on/?mc_cid=c367632cce&mc_eid=398b89c080
======
jessriedel
Note: you're making a mistake if you read this story and think "well, at least
the system basically works, and the right decision was finally made". The
maker of ZenMagnets was tirelessly and _bizarrely_ passionate about
overturning this ruling. For every entrepreneur that struggles through a
hurdle like this, a dozen more wisely choose to silently forgo developing a
similar a product.

~~~
notacoward
For every entrepreneur that struggles through a hurdle like this, how many
personal injuries and environmental harms are avoided? You make it sound like
regulation exists for no reason or has no upside, but that's a very money-
centric POV. From a _human_ POV it's often just as well that some of those
startups didn't get off the ground. How many cases of food poisoning or
malnutrition were avoided because a dozen Soylent-alikes were - rightly! -
told their products were unfit for human consumption?

~~~
Fordrus
You're committing a critical fallacy here, you're making it sound like this
has to be a "virtually non-existent regulation" situation or a circumstance
like Zen Magnets went through.

The CPSC and related regulators CAN regulate dangerous stuff without making
idiotic wars on toy magnets that undermine their entire existence. Seriously.
They can fulfill their entire function, standards of error for mistakes
included, without EVER committing such heinously overregulatory acts as this -
in fact, it's important to their continued existence that they DO NOT
overregulate this badly (because when they do, their opponents gain
substantial ammunition to eventually disband/defang them).

~~~
762236
They aren't toy magnets, which is part of the problem: people have
internalized that these are toys, which leads to hazardous situations. An
educational campaign is surely something that needs to happen.

------
quantumhobbit
I'm glad these are available for adults but the danger to children and pets is
very real.

A kid eats a magnet waits a while then eats another one. The magnets are
strong enough to find each other through the intestinal walls. The result is
pretty horrifying, so be careful with strong magnetic toys.

~~~
jemfinch
No doubt the injuries are horrifying, but so are fireworks-related burns and
gunshot wounds. It's hard to imagine a world where neodymium magnets should be
more regulated than fireworks and firearms, but that's the world we lived in
before the 10th circuit vacated the CPSC's regulatory overreach.

~~~
slg
Those examples are obviously dangerous while magnets are not. A parent is
going to leave their 2 year old playing with a loaded gun, but they might
leave them to play with a bunch of magnets without realizing the danger.

~~~
anigbrowl
Every box of neodymium magnets I've ever bought has a big warning on it saying
'DANGER - do not swallow' with an explanation of why. It's not the
manufacturer's fault if some people refuse to pay attention to clearly stated
warnings. It's those parents which are putting their children at risk, not the
manufacturers.

 _Those examples are obviously dangerous while magnets are not. A parent is
[not] going to leave their 2 year old playing with a loaded gun [...]_

I amended your quote as you seem to have omitted a word by mistake. However, I
have to disagree - lots of small children die or shoot others every year
because the parents _do_ allow them to play with a loaded gun. Sure they don't
hand them a gun and say 'have fun Timmy,' but it's quite common for people to
leave the gun accessible to children who then play with it. I don't recall how
many kids die this way each year but it's far from zero. Given the wide
popularity of guns, I'd think a lot more 2 year olds get shot than die or
suffer injury from eating magnets.

[http://www.gunviolencearchive.org/reports/child-injured-
kill...](http://www.gunviolencearchive.org/reports/child-injured-killed) has
pretty up-to-date raw data for anyone interested in analyzing this.

~~~
slg
You are right I omitted a word there, but it is too late to edit my post.

>they don't hand them a gun and say 'have fun Timmy,'

That is the distinction. These things are marketed as toys. The expectation is
that they will be played with and probably by kids.

Regarding the warnings, almost every kids toy has these type of warnings. It
is easy to get desensitized to them. A parent should still be aware of them,
but it also means that in practice these type of warnings might not be enough
to stop potential problems.

And for the record, I'm not saying these should be outlawed or anything. Just
that the comparison to guns and fireworks or using those as a justification
for a lack of regulation is silly due to the marketing and perceived danger of
all three products.

~~~
anigbrowl
_almost every kids toy has these type of warnings. It is easy to get
desensitized to them_

I agree and think it's a mistake to put on so many warnings that tired
parents, or stupid parents, or parents who can't read English well, or
whoever, become so overwhelmed by the warning information that they just
ignore it. But it's also a mistake to say 'well people don't pay attention to
warnings so we'd better just take the product off the market.' That's just an
absurd over-reaction.

'You can have fun with this' =/= 'Safe for kids to use unsupervised.' Or more
bluntly 'fun' =/= 'carefree.' Lots of enjoyable things are also dangerous. At
some point liability accrues to the person who willingly engages in the
dangerous activity; manufacturers should clearly inform consumers about the
existence of risk but should not be expected to actively insulate them from it
under every circumstance.

 _And for the record, I 'm not saying these should be outlawed or anything.
Just that the comparison to guns and fireworks or using those as a
justification for a lack of regulation is silly due to the marketing and
perceived danger of all three products._

I don't think so. Guns and fireworks are often marketed irresponsibly from
what I've seen, and while responsibility is a matter of opinion it's easy to
find advertising materials suggesting that guns and fireworks can be employed
for fun, so I hope you'd agree that that's a fact. It's definitely a fact that
while in pursuit of said fun, people do stupid shit with guns and fireworks on
a regular basis - every year a few people kill them,selves on the 4th of July
doing some idiotic firework stunt, and the toll from gun accidents is higher
again.

So look, while I agree that magnets are not as obviously dangerous as guns or
fireworks in that they don't involve explosions, they're still dangerous and
anyone over the age of about 12 who doesn't appreciate this is rather
ignorant. When the magnets are sold with a large warning saying 'this is
dangerous because you could die' and people choose to ignore than, then
they're being _willfully_ ignorant.

I don't understand the compulsion to make excuses for willful ignorance. Most
households have several dangerous chemicals in a cupboard under the kitchen
sink and it's well understood that you shouldn't let kids drink drain cleaner
etc. etc. Why are parents expected to exercise reasonable judgement where
firearms, incendiaries, chemicals and so on are concerned but the same level
of warning isn't considered sufficient for some other products? It's a self-
defeating position.

~~~
jmcdiesel
Simple.

In America, you're not expected or even allowed to be completely responsible
for your child's safety. You're told what to do and what not to do (no matter
your own educated experience)... the state knows best, don't you know?

~~~
anigbrowl
I don't think these kind of simplistic characterizations are the least bit
helpful. This particular regulatory outcome is atypical, and furthermore
you're ignoring the rather significant body of tort law and its impact on
theories of legal liability, even though the state is rarely a party to
product liability lawsuits.

More and more, every time I hear the word 'simple' it's followed by some
irrational bullshit. It's becoming my least favorite word.

------
forgottenpass
Interesting blog post on the psychology surrounding the ban/regulation of
buckyballs, NYC soda size limits:

The Nanny State Didn't Show Up, You Hired It
[http://web.archive.org/web/20150315003211/http://thelastpsyc...](http://web.archive.org/web/20150315003211/http://thelastpsychiatrist.com/2012/09/the_nanny_state_didnt_show_up.html)

------
LukeB_UK
Seems to be having issues. Google cache:
[http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:p6SCH51...](http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:p6SCH51MG-
EJ:zenmagnets.com/magnet-ban-cleared-game-on/+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=uk)

------
ShakataGaNai
This was an amazingly stupid action on the CPSC's part to begin with. Are
magnets often considered a "toy"? Yes. Can magnets actually cause harm? Yes.
But this is true of almost anything in our world.

There are a lot more dangerous things that are a lot less regulated than a
wholesale ban. The CPSC needs, apparently, a much strong leash put on it. We
need a government, not a nanny state.

~~~
dmix
Much like how Kinder Eggs are banned in the US but not Canada (and many other
countries). Besides firearms, the US is in many ways as regulation and control
obsessed as many state-heavy European countries - probably much more so given
the size and capitalization of the various governments and agencies, plus the
breadth of industry there - despite having the image of being a place of
liberty and freedom.

One of the problems is the hysteria of the press whenever anything close to
bad happens. It's created a culture of hyper critical control systems over
defaulting to trusting the common sense of individuals, the ability of
information to disseminate to educate peoplel (warning labels, stories of
people getting hurt educating people on what not to do, etc), and the ability
of parents.

~~~
ashark
I read through the archives of some Russian world traveller's extensive photo
blog a couple years back, and I remember him commenting more than once that
one of the most striking things about the US is how many posted regulations
and notices there are compared to other countries. None but a couple other
countries (I think Australia was one) were similar to the US in that regard.

------
komali2
The idea that the agency banning the magnet balls is ignoring much more
dangerous issues such as pools or balloons is interesting - I can think of
many examples of disproportionate government enforcement. For example, huge
sentencing for computer crimes that under the right circumstances can be more
punitive than what a child molester or violent assaulter could expect, or the
entirety of the insane war on drugs. I'd be curious to see what kind of
"balancing" could be done on the legal system.

~~~
tw04
I'm in no way supporting the complete ban by the CSPC, but I also think it's
unfair to compare a toy that was on the market for a relatively short period
of time with relatively small market penetration to a balloon which you can
find in most American homes (with children) at some point during a given year.
That's like comparing the number of railgun deaths per year to the number of
handgun deaths. You can't be killed by something you never had access to in
the first place.

------
tedmiston
I thought that Buckyballs were a cool novelty when I received them as a gift a
few years ago (and it seems like Zen Magnets makes pretty much the same
thing). Once I opened and played with them once, they just weren't that
interesting anymore, where I thought they'd feel more like Legos. Kudos to
them for winning, but I probably won't buy another new set.

~~~
smokey_the_bear
If you want magnet toys that feel more like legos, check out magformers,
magnatiles or tegu.

I think magformers are the best toy we own.

~~~
snuxoll
My 4 year old loves her magformers sets, she's still at that age where she
needs a lot of assistance with them, but she likes building "houses" and other
structures to use with her small figurines.

------
mibbiting
Kinder surprises still banned though?

~~~
fragsworth
It costs money to fight it, but Zen Magnets will probably make a killing
because of this. Maybe the Kinder surprise company will be more interested in
fighting the ban now.

~~~
biztos
I think the Kinder-surprise company[0] has a lot more money than the magnet-
surprise company, and my first guess would be that they don't think the
liability risk is worth the effort.

[0]:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferrero_SpA](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferrero_SpA)

------
AstroJetson
Posts about him fighting on tirelessly. I look to them like the NewEgg of
Patent trolls. He stood up and fought back a group that seldom has cases turn
on them.

Good for him!

------
switchbak
I honestly had no idea this was even an issue. I purchased some outrageously
strong magnets from Lee Valley for some wood working projects.

You don't want to get them stuck between your fingers, but besides keeping
them away from visa cards and rotating hard drives, I didn't think much more
about the potential dangers. Thank goodness the negligence of my government
didn't cause me all manner of danger (kidding).

~~~
fpgaminer
Strong magnets are incredibly dangerous; about as dangerous as a table saw I'd
say. You can know what you're doing but still get hurt. All it takes is one
stray nail under the table to put a damper on your ability to grab a cup in
the future.

I bought tiny neodymiums at a store once. They're about 3/4 the size of a
dime. You have to pry them off the fridge, they can hang pictures on the wall
if a nail is hiding behind, and I _have_ hurt myself with them before. It's
easy, and happens before you can blink.

------
iplaw
Wow, they claimed that they reduced their prices by 10%. What I'm seeing on
the website is a 100% price increase. Talk about price gouging, and what a way
to be reintroduced to the general market!

2015 Zen Booster Set: 216 Zen Magnets. 6 Spares, .5mm PVC Card and Velvet
Sack.

Was: $32.98

Now: $65.96

~~~
deelowe
Those are the prices from when they were selling the NOS and buybacks. This is
how they stayed in business through the court rulings. They couldn't import
new stock so they were selling what they had warehoused pre-ban and what they
could buyback from previous customers.

The 2017 prices are published (I'm guessing the ban doesn't end immediately)
and they are indeed 10% cheaper.

[edit] I'm not affiliated with zen magnets in any way, but I bought their
largest set available pre-ban and have been following their progress on this
ever since. They are an extremely reputable company and I highly recommend
them.

------
lwhalen
Your logic is the 'but think of the children!' fallacy. Please re-examine and
re-submit.

~~~
sctb
We detached this subthread from
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13056942](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13056942)
and marked it off-topic.

