

Ask HN: College business model? - jonsen

Regularly we see posts regarding higher education considering deflation of educational value, questioning the return value of tuition investment, etc.<p>We often see good business advise here. Do you have any visions of alternative business models for higher education in the modern world?<p>What would it cost to run a school with lecturers fully dedicated to teaching?<p>In 2007 we were two CS lecturers trying to start a private software engineering college in one of the smallest countries of this world where you had to move abroad to get a CS degree. Lots of interest among the local businesses looking forward to hire well educated software engineers. Graduates abroad were far from all inclined to return.<p>We managed one course in discrete math in a rented classroom. Then funding negotiations stalled.
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oldgregg
Right now college still has too much residual cachet. New MBAs realize they
just got hosed, but high school juniors still obsess over what school they
will get into. It will take some time before you have a significant number of
people looking for alternatives that they are willing to fund. It's a bit of a
chicken and the egg problem.

We probably have to eliminate lectures. It's terribly inefficient. Course
content needs to be converted into video clips / scannable web content. Get
the best teachers in each field and have them create the course content.
Everyone else should just be DIALOGUING with students. Answering their
questions, listening to understand when they don't understand something, etc.

In terms of business models, you're lucky you are in CS where degrees don't
matter. Medicine and law are in bed with the government so the status quo
won't change for a long time.

My Dad was a college president for awhile but didn't like how slow things
moved or the pain-in-the-ass faculty. One of the things he is doing now is
one-on-one mentoring and it works-- much fewer people, but they tend to really
excel in their fields.

You can also think about it this way. If I spend 15k/yr in tuition the
bureaucracy takes that vast majority of that. The bureaucracy that provides
almost no real value! So imagine if you had 10 students that you mentored for
10k/yr with zero overheard... That would be a great deal for both of you! You
send them articles and books to read and then dialogue with them individually
or in small groups. This does work but you have to really sell the idea to
people of an alternative education.

The problem is that as higher education has become disconnected from reality
many teachers simply don't know how to function outside of the bubble, who
knows how to solve that one...

~~~
jonsen
...yes, a hard nut to crack. Solutions has to come from outside the bubble as
I see it.

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TallGuyShort
I may be the least qualified person to be giving you advice here, but one
thing that jumps out to me is that your first could was on discrete math. If
your local business wanted to hire software engineers and you're a very small
country, perhaps you should begin by focusing on something more practical and
general. Doing so would bring a more immediate benefit to your investors. Then
once you had some basic courses in place you could begin offering higher-
quality education, and more theoretical classes.

~~~
jonsen
I get your points, thanks, but one thing we never wanted to comprise was
quality. An education is often once in a lifetime, so I think one deserves the
best possible.

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TallGuyShort
Sorry, quality was the wrong word. I don't mean to say you should the quality
of your teaching, I mean you should focus on a more practical subject rather
than something that you may see as a subject taught at "the best schools". Let
me use food as an analogy. I see discrete mathematics as a spice. Yes, it's
essential for a complete gourmet meal. But why offer a spice before the main
staple? Sure it's a high-quality spice, but you're trying to sell it to people
who don't have bread.

Honestly, if I need software engineers in a small country, and you asked me to
invest in your school, I'd withdraw all funding the second I found out your
first and only (at the time) class was on discrete mathematics. To me that
seems completely irrelevant to what your investors need.

~~~
jonsen
Perhaps you nailed a major problem:

Education should not give employers what they want.

Education should give the graduate the best possible odds for a fulfilling
professional lifetime.

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michael_dorfman
It doesn't sound like there's anything wrong with your model; you just need to
continue your funding negotiations.

If you've got two lecturers, what are the major expenses? Salaries, and rent
for the classroom? How big is the gap between (enrollment x tuition fees) and
expenses? What kind of enrollment would it take to get "ramen profitable"?

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jonsen
Thank you. I do believe we had a viable model. Perhaps other disturbing
factors were too difficult. What interests me is rethinking the educational
model in the large maybe catching new opportunities.

~~~
michael_dorfman
Why did you give up? It sounds like you were on the way to profitability.

If you want to do it on a larger scale, the trick would be to a) sign on
sufficient lecturers of sufficient quality, b) obtain the proper facilities,
and c) attract enough students. In terms of c), I imagine that it might
behoove you to talk to talk to the unemployment office in your country; I know
that here in Norway there are a lot of funds available for retraining of out-
of-work workers.

~~~
jonsen
_Ja riktigt ja! Ja ikke sant!_ In fact I live in Norway now :-) But I am
danish :-0

The short version of a complicated story: we pretty much gave up on the
country - The Faroe Islands. No funding of the kind you are talking about. And
overall a non progressive culture.

I see I ought to further investigate the possibilities here in Norway.

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dmillar
I can't speak for everyone, but in regard to CS, I, and many of my colleagues,
learned most of our trade from books, experience, and each other.

I never really found much utility for lecturers in CS classes in college. I
learned just as well--if not better--from a good book.

~~~
jonsen
I learned most on my own too. But that's not for everyone I believe. Some are
better off guided. Then there are lecturers and there are lecturers. What I
mean is that the scale of performance in lectures varies extremely wildly. And
how could it be different. As a lecturer you are often very much on your own.
You (hopefully) have good subject credentials and that is what you are hired
on. But no one really cares for how you perform pedagogically.

