
Vitamin pills don't work and may be bad for you - Someone
http://www.bbc.com/future/story/20161208-why-vitamin-supplements-could-kill-you
======
ellyagg
As always, the devil is in the details. Different vitamins have different
effects, they aren't just "antioxidants". Showing that one vitamin supplement
is harmful doesn't remotely prove that others aren't beneficial because
antioxidants.

This article makes sweeping generalizations that vitamin supplements "don't
work" based on a couple of studies on beta-carotene. Many of us already
thought beta-carotene supplementation would be worthless. And I bet once they
do a study of vitamin E supplementation, it will also be worthless or harmful.
On the other hand, you're not going to find a study proving vitamin C
supplmentation is harmful. And I very much doubt if they did an isolated study
on non-beta-carotene vitamin A, they'd find harmful effects.

~~~
bertm
"A study published in 2007 from the US National Cancer Institute, for
instance, found that men that took multivitamins were twice as likely to die
from prostate cancer compared to those who didn’t. And in 2011, a similar
study on 35,533 healthy men found that vitamin E and selenium supplementation
increased prostate cancer by 17%."

They do cite quite a few articles that show negative effects of specific
vitamins.

~~~
Calist0
That study used 400UI of vit E, which is more than 10x the RDA. Mega-dosing is
what's dangerous. Good multivitamins use a fraction of that dose.

The BBC article is merely clickbait.. People love to jump on the 'vitamins are
actually dangerous' bandwagon. if you do a bit of digging into the studies
they're quoting you'll find that their claims are unjustified.

~~~
pmoriarty
_" Mega-dosing is what's dangerous. Good multivitamins use a fraction of that
dose."_

The problem is that a lot of multivitamins (and supplements in general) have
doses which are all over the place, and megadoses are quite common. You'll
also find many reviews and testimonials that swear to the efficacy of any
given dose of these supplements. On top of that, many doctors recommend that
people take "a multivitamin", without any further guidance as to the
ingredients or their dosage. Finally, a lot of people don't trust doctors and
believe in alternative medicine, naturopathy, or what have you, from which
they'll often hear recommendations to megadose because allegedly, the RDA's
are set way too low (for a variety of reasons, depending on the supplement).

There's a lot of conflicting medical advice out there, and for the average
consumer (who may have a host of medical issues, or suspected issues) it's not
always as clear as "just take the RDA".

------
tzaman
Coincidentally, just yesterday I spoke with a friend of mine who's working in
a shop selling dietary supplements and she claimed that pretty much the whole
western world suffers from a severe vitamin D deficiency. A few hous later, I
ordered bottles of vitamin D and K (on Amazon, because it's significantly
cheaper than her quasi-eco shop).

I'll see how it goes, I'm giving her a three-month lasting benefit of a doubt,
because according to my Google research, what she says is true, but I'm
probably taking a blood test before and after to see what's up - and I'll
consult with my doctor about it prior to taking the pills.

~~~
k-mcgrady
I think the NHS (UK Health System) just announced this week they are
recommending people take Vitamin D supplements, particularly in winter. I
can't find the link now but I definitely read it and it was in the major
newspapers etc. AFAIK the problem is more 'multi vitamin' pills than specific
ones.

~~~
dageshi
Vitamin D pills definitely worked for me, I had what I can only describe as
"brain fog" while mostly being inside during the winter. On a whim I bought
some Vitamin D pills off amazon and within a few days the difference in how I
felt was significant.

I no longer take them every day but I pop one periodically if I'm more
tired/irritable/fuzzy than I would consider normal.

~~~
cpncrunch
That doesn't appear to be one of the effects of vitamin D (and deficiency
doesn't cause any neurological effects). I suspect the placebo effect is more
likely (it will definitely have a large effect on brain fog).

~~~
dageshi
There are some places online that do list the type of symptoms I had as being
down to Vitamin D deficiency. [http://www.healthline.com/health/vitamin-d-
deficiency](http://www.healthline.com/health/vitamin-d-deficiency)

Given that at the time it was Winter in the UK and I'd gotten into a sleep
pattern of being awake at night and asleep during the day, I think a Vitamin D
deficiency was pretty likely.

~~~
cpncrunch
Given that there is no scientific evidence of those symptoms, I suspect that
site pulled it out of their ass. If vitamin D deficiency did cause those
symptoms, they would be symptoms of ricketts.

>Given that at the time it was Winter in the UK and I'd gotten into a sleep
pattern of being awake at night and asleep during the day, I think a Vitamin D
deficiency was pretty likely.

Possibly (assuming you didn't eat much milk or fish). However your symptoms
probably had more to do with your sleep pattern than vitamin D.

------
gabemart
This is why I'm very skeptical of the long-term health of food replacements
like Soylent. We know vegetables are good for you. We're not really sure why.
How can we possibly create a healthy food-replacement system if we don't fully
understand what makes food healthy?

~~~
nether
I'm really liking mealsquares
[http://www.mealsquares.com/](http://www.mealsquares.com/), they're just
expensive. They do rely on whole foods to take care of unknown unknowns in
nutritional requirements.

~~~
WaxProlix
The pricing works out to around $1.50 per bar's worth ($3 each, and they're
around 2 energy bars' nutrition) -- that's not terrible by any means.

~~~
mahyarm
Mealsquares are really small unfortunately. I found it hard to be full on them
if I used for my full calorie intake.

Tasty things otherwise, it basically tastes like dense chocolate pastry.

If you want 'fast food', then a combo of prewashed veggies, frozen food like
trader joes dumplings and things like mealsquares and soylent can work. I
myself dont really like soylent.

------
mrfusion
I'd be curious who here gets enough vitamin c, vitamin d, potassium, iodine?

If you actually look at the RDA and Compare to your typical diet you'll find
you're way under. At least I was and I eat reasonably well.

I've actually noticed a lot of health benefits since I start taking higher
doses of vitamin c.

~~~
scurvy
Doesn't your body produce vitamin D from sun exposure? Just get outside more.

~~~
pdonis
_> Doesn't your body produce vitamin D from sun exposure?_

Yes, but (a) your body's ability to do this decreases as you age, and (b) sun
exposure has other downsides such as increased risk of skin cancer, so there's
a tradeoff involved.

~~~
scurvy
You're not going to get skin cancer in the 10-30 minutes of sun exposure
required for daily vitamin D.

Stop clinging to that as a reason to shelter indoors and replace life with
vitamins and manufactured meals.

~~~
pdonis
_> You're not going to get skin cancer in the 10-30 minutes of sun exposure
required for daily vitamin D._

Different people's skins have different sensitivities. Also, skin cancer
doesn't happen in one exposure; the risk builds up over time.

 _> Stop clinging to that as a reason to shelter indoors and replace life with
vitamins and manufactured meals._

Stop making assumptions. I personally have dark enough skin that a reasonable
amount of sun exposure doesn't bother me. But that apparently didn't stop my
vitamin D from being low (see my post elsewhere in this thread), so evidently
I am dealing with the other thing I mentioned, the fact that your body's
ability to make vitamin D from sun exposure decreases with age. So I started
taking a supplement. Would you rather I just let my vitamin D be too low no
matter how much sun I got?

------
cmurf
Eat real food. Mushrooms have vitamin D, kale has vitamin K.

All of these things have varying degrees of volatility, so cooking can making
them more or less bioavailable, and in pill form they oxidize and have a wide
range of potency. Cheap supplements almost certainly have no potency so you're
just throwing your money away. Most people should just eat real food and not
so much of it. (And pizza is not a real food sorry.)

------
reasonattlm
[http://dx.doi.org/10.7326/0003-4819-159-12-201312170-00011](http://dx.doi.org/10.7326/0003-4819-159-12-201312170-00011)

Three articles in this issue address the role of vitamin and mineral
supplements for preventing the occurrence or progression of chronic diseases.
First, Fortmann and colleagues systematically reviewed trial evidence to
update the U.S. Preventive Services Task Force recommendation on the efficacy
of vitamin supplements for primary prevention in community-dwelling adults
with no nutritional deficiencies. After reviewing 3 trials of multivitamin
supplements and 24 trials of single or paired vitamins that randomly assigned
more than 400 000 participants, the authors concluded that there was no clear
evidence of a beneficial effect of supplements on all-cause mortality,
cardiovascular disease, or cancer.

Second, Grodstein and coworkers evaluated the efficacy of a daily multivitamin
to prevent cognitive decline among 5947 men aged 65 years or older
participating in the Physicians’ Health Study II. After 12 years of follow-up,
there were no differences between the multivitamin and placebo groups in
overall cognitive performance or verbal memory. Adherence to the intervention
was high, and the large sample size resulted in precise estimates showing that
use of a multivitamin supplement in a well-nourished elderly population did
not prevent cognitive decline. Grodstein and coworkers’ findings are
compatible with a recent review (3) of 12 fair- to good-quality trials that
evaluated dietary supplements, including multivitamins, B vitamins, vitamins E
and C, and omega-3 fatty acids, in persons with mild cognitive impairment or
mild to moderate dementia. None of the supplements improved cognitive
function.

Third, Lamas and associates assessed the potential benefits of a high-dose,
28-component multivitamin supplement in 1708 men and women with a previous
myocardial infarction participating in TACT (Trial to Assess Chelation
Therapy). After a median follow-up of 4.6 years, there was no significant
difference in recurrent cardiovascular events with multivitamins compared with
placebo (hazard ratio, 0.89 [95% CI, 0.75 to 1.07]). The trial was limited by
high rates of nonadherence and dropouts.

The large body of accumulated evidence has important public health and
clinical implications. Evidence is sufficient to advise against routine
supplementation, and we should translate null and negative findings into
action. The message is simple: Most supplements do not prevent chronic disease
or death, their use is not justified, and they should be avoided. This message
is especially true for the general population with no clear evidence of
micronutrient deficiencies, who represent most supplement users in the United
States and in other countries.

------
melling
"He consumed 18,000 milligrams (18 grams) of the stuff per day, 50 times the
recommended daily allowance."

Linus Pauling lived to be 93. That probably contributed to people believing in
megadosing vitamin C.

~~~
pessimizer
That's a nice long life, but not any longer than plenty of people I know.

~~~
melling
I think the average age for a man to live in the 1980's was around 70.

[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life_expectancy#/media/File%...](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life_expectancy#/media/File%3ALife_Expectancy_at_Birth_by_Region_1950-2050.png)

Considering his intelligence and age, I'm sure that it was convincing at the
time.

These days more people are living into their second century:

[http://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/there-are-more-
amer...](http://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/there-are-more-americans-
over-age-100-now-and-they-are-living-longer-180957914/)

[http://www.npr.org/2016/03/30/472442367/in-one-italian-
villa...](http://www.npr.org/2016/03/30/472442367/in-one-italian-village-
nearly-300-residents-are-over-100-years-old)

------
joeax
I cured my anxiety and depression with vitamin B supplements. It turned out I
had a B12 deficiency, and the lack of B12 was having a compound worsening
effect on my nervous system, probably depleting the other nutrients and
causing me constant stress. (A bad habit of negative thinking also was the
problem.)

Now I don't believe that vitamins are some kind of cure-all either. Vitamins,
by their design, are supplements. Meaning they augment an existing healthy
diet. From what I read in the article, the people in the study were
overloading on vitamins, which I wouldn't be surprised can cause health
problems. It's no different that say, overloading on sodium. I often wonder if
the synthesizing process and the "filler" material used in vitamins can be
generally bad for you.

~~~
alderz
How did you come to discover that B12 deficiency?

~~~
joeax
My wife bought me a book about anxiety. It talked about vitamin deficiencies
contributing to low serotonin levels being linked to depleted B12 in the blood
stream, so I gave vitamin B-complex a shot. In like a week I stopped having
bizarre, end-of-the-world thoughts and feeling stress over every little thing.
In two weeks I felt like a normal person. I haven't looked back since.

------
wnevets
Frontline has a great piece of the problems with vitamins and supplements in
the US.

[http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/film/supplements-and-
safet...](http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/film/supplements-and-safety/)

------
jstoja
Last year, I was sick all the time, just for a joke a co-worker offered a box
of vitamins (1 month of pills). I took them just to try. My big surprise was
that when taking them I wasn't feeling any "better"... but when I stopped, I
clearly felt that I wasn't sleeping as well as few days before. I tried again
several months later, and to my amazement, it worked exactly as the first
time.

I'm very skeptical about the studies around vitamins and I prefer taking some
in the winter since it's the period of the year I feel the most stressed and
sleepy.

I already spoke with other people having the same experience and none of them
has more insights of how healthy this is or not...

~~~
ClassyJacket
That could be the zinc and magnesium. I sleep better on it.

------
truth_sentinell
What I dread is that how many books like those written by Pauling - who was a
Nobel prize winner - do we consider true and follow its advice because says
so? How many placebos might be laying around?

What would be a practical way for folks that don't have anything to do with X
field to test if what scientists say is actually true? - at least in such
important field as what we consume -

------
golemotron
I heard a doctor say that North Americans have the most expensive urine on the
planet. Most vitamins are flushed out of your system and then flushed away.

~~~
scurvy
My grandfather was an internal medicine doctor and said the same thing since
the 50's, "all vitamins do is make your pee more expensive."

------
emmelaich
As a kid I used to idolise scientists, and Linus Pauling was one of them -
having been one of only two people to ever get two Nobel prizes - the other
one a Peace prize.

Now I count him as a delusional and deluding self-promoter.

On the other hand, I'm sure that it is good to take small doses of many
different vitamins in addition to well-balanced diet.

~~~
scott_s
> On the other hand, I'm sure that it is good to take small doses of many
> different vitamins in addition to well-balanced diet.

The evidence seems to say otherwise. There have been many studies over the
past decade of general vitamin supplementation, and it does not hold up:
[https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/more-evidence-that-
routine-...](https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/more-evidence-that-routine-
multivitamin-use-should-be-avoided/)

~~~
emmelaich
I was going to add a note similar to others here, that many people have a
vitamin deficiency. It would help for those particular deficiencies and have a
very little chance of harm for the other vitamins.

As for most things, it's all about the dosage.

But thanks for the link, I'll read that too.

------
seanwilson
Pretty much everything that can have a positive impact on the body can have a
negative one if you overdo it (e.g. water, salt). If someone is claiming
something can have a positive impact on the body, it doesn't make sense to me
to assume it's harmless as well without evidence.

------
mrfusion
We see these studies every few years. I think it's really just a publication
bias issue. If a result of a study is that vitamins do what they're supposed
to why would you publish that? Why would the media report on that?

~~~
contingencies
Or maybe half the studies are funded by drug companies who enjoy profiteering?
The 'average' person (no medical knowledge, no access to research journals, no
background knowledge to interpret them) has no way to know. Society should
welcome measured criticism, especially from the likes of BBC science
journalists, as a counterbalance to constantly advertised commercial
interests.

~~~
slaveofallah93
No drug company owns a patent on vitamin C. And this BBC article is barely
above clickbait journalism. Don't pretend like this is some example of great
high quality science reporting.

~~~
contingencies
It's not bad. Nutraceuticals didn't invent themselves.

------
gotofritz
Vitamin B12 supplements are ESSENTIALS for vegans, and recommended to
vegetarians. Vitamin D are also recommended. Others vitamin supplements are
quite useless.

------
nercht12
I think conclusions about your diet and this can be summarized so adequately
by the acronym "YMMV".

------
elchief
Anybody know of issues with taking D3 supplements? I take 1000 IUs per day. I
can't drink milk or eat anything with lactose or milk protein, and am a sun-
avoiding ginger

~~~
mixmastamyk
Should be fine, and helpful in the winter.

