
What Does Trump Have Against TikTok? - homami
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/08/07/opinion/tiktok-wechat-china-trump-executive-order.html
======
Wolfenstein98k
It's got nothing to do with "global internet", it's about a totalitarian
surveillance dragnet capturing every bit of data imaginable about American
children.

Tik Tok is unique in the granularity and sheer scope of what it captures, and
it is stored on Chinese servers that are legally compelled to make any and all
data available to the CCP with no oversight or warrants or anything of the
sort.

~~~
close04
> a totalitarian surveillance dragnet capturing every bit of data imaginable
> about American children

Are non-Chinese surveillance dragnets (Facebook, Instagram, Snapchat, Twitter,
etc.) capturing every bit of data imaginable about every nationality's
children or adults more palatable?

Just like China, the US is doing whatever it can to maintain its superpower
status, and its allies and enemies in check. And it's obvious these days that
the US is willing to use the exact same measures that they criticized in the
past when they were employed only by China.

~~~
hh3k0
Please educate yourself on the matter:

[https://www.reddit.com/r/videos/comments/fxgi06/not_new_news...](https://www.reddit.com/r/videos/comments/fxgi06/not_new_news_but_tbh_if_you_have_tiktiok_just_get/fmuko1m/)

~~~
close04
The condescending tone was completely unnecessary given that you failed to
even comprehend my point. Your leg to stand on is that TikTok's (China's?)
"shit" smells the worst as such "we" have the moral high ground. A slightly
less smelling "shit" is shit nonetheless. The world isn't binary and not being
the worst doesn't make you good. But I see a strong sense of nationalism and
patriotism that prevents you from even looking further than "they're worse so
we must be good".

~~~
hh3k0
> The condescending tone was completely unnecessary given that you failed to
> even comprehend my point.

Apologies, I didn't mean to sound condescending.

> Your leg to stand on is that TikTok's (China's?) "shit" smells the worst as
> such "we" have the moral high ground.

That isn't the point, really. It's just that TikTok is in a whole different
league. A quote from the Reddit comment I've linked prior:

> For what it's worth I've reversed the Instagram, Facebook, Reddit, and
> Twitter apps. They don't collect anywhere near the same amount of data that
> TikTok does, and they sure as hell aren't outright trying to hide exactly
> whats being sent like TikTok is. It's like comparing a cup of water to the
> ocean - they just don't compare.

> The world isn't binary and not being the worst doesn't make you good.

Nobody said that. The issue is that TikTok is "essentially malware that is
targeting children".

And pointing that out doesn't suddenly make me a fan of Facebook. Your point
is a false dilemma.

> But I see a strong sense of nationalism and patriotism that prevents you
> from even looking further than "they're worse so we must be good".

I'm not American but German.

~~~
close04
> It's like comparing a cup of water to the ocean - they just don't compare.

The comparison is disingenuous because it makes it look like the current US
based social media scene is as harmless and unassuming as a cup of water. When
they appeared they _were_ the ocean. What they were doing then was just as
unacceptable as what TikTok is doing now. And they were still "shoved" down
our throats with the same tricks of the trade TikTok is using now. We just
raised our baseline and the unacceptable became acceptable.

How about if we say it's like a sea to the ocean? They still "just don't
compare" but both are able to easily drown the world's population and for a
ship on that water for all intents and purposes they're the same.

Let's not delude ourselves, this isn't about "too much data is being
collected" or the gratuitous "but but but children" remark. Between all the
US-based big-tech companies and the NSA/Five Eyes, the US has enough data to
blackmail children for decades to come (see? the children argument works both
ways). No, the problem here is that someone other than the US is doing it and
could get an upper hand.

Facebook and Alphabet have probably collected more info about the people of
the world than any other companies in existence and all of it can/is being
shared with intelligence services if demanded. Isn't this collecting an ocean
of data about your children? [0] I could dig up 1000 stories like that. But
you're not worried because you were educated that some countries doing it is
OK and China's explicitly not on that list.

[0]
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24091006](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24091006)

------
cletus
It should be clear to all but the most biased that:

1\. Chinese companies are extensions of the state. This is not true to the
same degree for US or European companies; and

2\. China deliberately restricts access to the Chinese market so no foreign
company will "win" there. It will always be a Chinese company. This is why
companies kowtowing the China is so pointless.

Trade is about reciprocity. Separation from the state is a national security
issue. China is not playing by the same rules as everyone else is. The only
shocking thing about this is that it's taken what is otherwise the worst
president in America's history (and someone who, with his family, should
probably all be in jail for various reasons) to demand reciprocity and to
point out the obvious.

Yet the carrot of the Chinese market remains for Western companies and those
companies have pressured (if not outright bought) their governments to play
along in a completely rigged game they cannot win.

~~~
spanhandler
This is pretty much exactly my take on this, down to the assessment that
shaking up Chinese trade policy is just about the only halfway sensible thing
Trump has done. Are we crazy or has most of the rest of HN somehow missing the
point of all this? The discussions about this here have been perplexing.

~~~
Wolfenstein98k
Most people still fall for the line that Trump only rags on China because he's
racist, and think that China's govt is basically the same as other govts.

------
makomk
Forget TikTok and the US for a moment - just given the actions of China, the
EU, and India, is there even such a thing as a global internet anymore?

~~~
PedroBatista
Why didn't you start with the actions of the US and US companies? Did you
forgot about the many FB and Google scandals over the years? or you just don't
care because they are your team?

The Internet never was "Global", it was always soft and sometimes hard
controlled by the US. Now that other countries are applying the same recipe
and "winning" all of a sudden that's a problem.

And it really is a problem, but it was a problem since the very beginning of
the Internet, or do I need to mention the RSA backdoor, the Windows kernel
backdoor, the amazing health of the ECHELON project even decades after the
cold war ended?

~~~
meragrin_
Aside from the recent targeting of Chinese companies, what policies has the US
put into place which specifically targets internet companies only and makes it
difficult for foreign companies to have US customers?

------
arbuge
No. Banning TikTok at most suggests that the current US administration no
longer believes in a global internet.

That administration might be out of office as soon as January 2021.

Edit: Comment submitted before title was changed. Title was originally:
"Banning TikTok suggests that the US no longer believes in a global internet."

~~~
threeseed
Data protection and privacy is far more important than a global internet. And
you need a country with a strong and independent judiciary and press in order
for that to happen. China has neither.

And people who think this is exclusive a Trump, right-wing position are
seriously misguided. It's bi-partisan and will definitely continue under a
Biden presidency as well.

~~~
pbhjpbhj
>strong and independent judiciary and press //

Are you suggesting USA has that?

------
Solstinox
Is it true that we (not HN, but US as a geopolitical entity) have ever
believed in a global internet? Seems naive. We’ve believed in the American
internet purveyed by America to the world. Countries like China deployed their
firewalls precisely because it is largely an American internet out there.
Banning TikTok as delivered by a frenemy that sees us as its key rival for the
next _two hundred years_ makes more sense with that context.

------
Simulacra
I disagree with the authors conclusions. All Chinese companies are owned by
the Chinese government. China is a horrible regime that murders it's own
people, not to mention half the nation is starving while the Politburo lives
in fancy houses chauffeured in fancy cars. It is not a great leap to conclude
that a nation like that which owns a very popular social media app would not
attempt to use it for subversive means.

------
CyberRabbi
Belief has nothing to do with it. This is a response to geopolitical
realities. There is no virtue in believing in a fiction, even if it sounds
nice.

Edit: this post was originally titled “Banning TikTok suggests that the US no
longer believes in a global internet” and that is still the main idea of the
article

------
codyswann
TikTok trolled his Tulsa rally

------
raverbashing
Or maybe it believes that those who don't believe in a global internet
shouldn't benefit from it.

The _first_ thing China did was putting up the Great Firewall.

Reciprocity is overdue and important.

------
madballster
Not sure if we should extrapolate from one White House administration as to
what the US believes.

~~~
threeseed
> During the Democrat presidential primaries, Biden called China’s President
> Xi Jinping, who is also the general secretary of the Chinese Communist Party
> (CCP), a “thug” for having “a million Uyghurs in ‘reconstruction camps’
> [sic] meaning concentration camps.

[https://thediplomat.com/2020/07/team-bidens-policies-on-
chin...](https://thediplomat.com/2020/07/team-bidens-policies-on-china-and-
taiwan/)

Whoever the next President is will not be soft on China.

------
unangst
Trump’s fallen for one of the two classic blunders! The first being never put
self above the American people but only slightly lesser known: never go in
against the TikTok hive mind when RE-ELECTION is on the line!

~~~
loopz
Maybe his ML strategists see a way without winning the election?

------
villgax
Having a fool at the helm often yields such outcomes.

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forgot_user1234
Or US believes in trade reciprocity

