
Banned from buying iPads... for life. - mrcharles
http://www.protocolsnow.com/2010/04/17/how-i-went-from-apple-store-newbie-to-lifetime-ban-in-one-week/
======
cscotta
I'm surprised by the outrage in this post. This is a very common - indeed,
necessary - practice in retail.

A friend of mine manages a high-end retail store in the area. He tells me that
there are a number of people who match this buying profile. The products
either show up on Craigslist, eBay, or are moved out of state to be sold
elsewhere, often in markets the retailer is unwilling or unable to enter for a
variety of reasons. Like it or not, in pretty much any retail environment,
this practice is unacceptable.

He also tells me that these small groups of people will often approach
customers in the parking lot as they exit their vehicle, offering them cash to
enter the store, buy the goods with a few crisp hundred-dollar bills, and to
keep the change. This gray market is very real.

Beyond that, the guy admits he knew of the policy and was willingly violating
it. There's really not much room for outrage here.

~~~
viraptor
Why would a high-end retail store care? They sell some product. They might be
unwilling or unable to enter some market - and this guy does it for them. The
retail store still receives the money and people who get the product are aware
of the fact that they paid more than they would at the shop.

I still don't get why this practice is unacceptable. The shop doesn't seem to
lose anything here.

~~~
DrJokepu
Because they feel that shopping experience is part of their brand and people
buying their "high-end" products in large quantities just to sell them
elsewhere would hurt the brand on long term. Don't forget that Apple is very
careful about its brand and image.

I'm not saying I agree with this practice, that's just the reason this is
disallowed.

~~~
mnemonicsloth
_they feel that shopping experience is part of their brand_

You're right, but say it like you mean it. They treat your opinion of their
company as their property.

That's what having a brand _means_.

~~~
dasil003
No it's not. It's more like a softer version of anti-slander than it is like
they own _your_ opinion. Are they going to send you a threatening letter if
you don't like them?

------
jacquesm
Excellent reason to pay cash for your purchases, this is exactly the kind of
privacy violation that people always think will never happen to them, but your
credit card record is a nice way of tracking your previous interactions with
the store.

Besides that, they were welcome to not sell him his second one, so I think
they really messed up there.

As for being banned from buying ipads, he can always go to a different store
and get them paid cash. Interesting how there is a 'lifetime limit' on
customers buying your product, anybody else would be insanely happy about
people buying more of the product.

The stonewalling on how many items you're allowed to order is the best bit,
not only is there a rule, but you're not allowed to know it.

~~~
unfletch
Unfortunately you must either use a credit card or leave empty-handed; Apple
stores don't accept cash on these high-demand items in order to enforce this
very policy. IIRC this was instituted some time after the launch of the
original iPhone.

That said, enforcement is at least a little spotty. There are reports of Apple
Store employees helping customers circumvent the no-cash policy by taking the
cash for a gift card, and immediately accepting the gift card for the original
merchandise. In the other direction, there are also reports of purchases with
gift cards being denied for the same reason as cash.

~~~
billswift
I wonder if that is even legal. I thought the legal tender laws _required_
anyone to accept cash as payment for any debt.

~~~
riffic
debt.

~~~
eru
I guess you can pretend to pay with a credit card, then cancel the transaction
(or something). Since you have the product now, you have a debt with them, and
could pay them with cash.

Of course, in theory they could counter that by having an artificial hight
price (say a few millions), but give you a discount (down to the normal price)
if you pay with a credit card. This way you wouldn't want to pay cash.

------
thestoicattack
I have no problem with the iPad-limit policy. The annoying part was that the
clerk was not able to volunteer any information at all about what the policy
actually says. From the customer's tone it seems like he wasn't going to throw
a fit, but it would be nice if Apple were slightly more forthcoming.

~~~
bartl
>The annoying part was that the clerk was not able to volunteer any
information at all about what the policy actually says.

That was probably because they were making it up on the spot.

~~~
bphogan
I don't know - I doubt it. I've dealt with situations like this before. The
clerk is told by his boss what to say. In this case he probably is not
allowed. He phrased it very specifically if you notice. "All I can say is..."

It probably is all he _can_ say.

~~~
po
so… his manager was making it up on the spot.

------
starkfist
Banning people who are obviously buying stuff for resale is extremely common
in luxury goods retail. There's a book "Bringing Home the Birkin" about a guy
who had an entire lifestyle based around skirting Hermes rules about buying
too many Birkin bags.

------
rbanffy
I agree Apple has to limit the number of unit purchased per individual, but a
lifetime ban? On an undisclosed policy?

The "undisclosed" part is what bothers me more. I was banned from AdSense for
some reason Google can't tell, but when I asked them to check if whatever I
did was really done, they came back a week later saying "yes, we checked it
and you pretty much did whatever we said you did, but we still won't tell you
what you did"

If someone writes me a letter stating I am in violation of such and such
policy, I go in and fix whatever is wrong. I can't fix stuff they don't tell
me.

In the end it was good. My blog makes a couple times more money now than it
did with AdSense.

~~~
evgen
If they tell you and everyone else trying to game the system and find
loopholes then the policy becomes much more complicated than it needs to be.
There is a reason laws are written in a specific sort of legal jargon, and
most stores would probably like to avoid this situation. The general policy of
most stores in my experience has been "don't be a dick", but for some reason
people seem to think they are entitled to get a written copy of the policy
(usually so they can see if there are any loopholes they can take advantage
of...)

~~~
rbanffy
In this case, it wouldn't need to be much more complicated than "not more than
two per month".

Lifetime ban? Come on!

------
madair
It's a good example of how corporate policies create a pseudo-government and
censorship environment, and our ethical ideas have not caught up to deal with
it.

Let's keep in mind WHY he was doing it: to send to other countries. But that's
okay to bar him, because Apple doesn't explicitly mention race or nationality,
they just don't sell them elsewhere. So what we've got is a type of class-
system based on nation states and residencies. And most people consider that
normal and reasonable. In my opinion this classism is not a minor issue, and
in the future it's going to be a bigger as the U.S. steadily loses economic
superpower status, whether it happens now or later.

Or instead imagine Apple as a Chinese company and China continues its progress
and actually manages to usurp the United States as economic superpower and
someone gets banned for life for purchasing an iPad for American friends.
Seems sorta craptacular all of a sudden.

~~~
madair
Also today: the Hitler parodies getting taken down from YouTube.

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dareiff
[http://74.125.155.132/search?q=cache:2TxVRfz30WwJ:www.protoc...](http://74.125.155.132/search?q=cache:2TxVRfz30WwJ:www.protocolsnow.com/2010/04/17/how-
i-went-from-apple-store-newbie-to-lifetime-ban-in-one-
week/+how+i+went+from+apple+store+newbie+to+lifetime+ban+in+one+week&hl=en&gl=us&strip=1)

Text-only cache.

------
DLWormwood
I ended up missing out on the first shipment of iPads to Toledo, OH due to
similar caginess by my local retailer. After finding out on the evening news
that the device sold out here, I visited the store in person to complain. The
store owner(?) was very apologetic to me, explaining that Apple gave them a
very strict script they had to follow when fielding questions before the
release. They couldn't even tell me that they were getting any at all on
launch day, or that even putting down my name was pointless. (In retrospect,
some of their choices of wording to me over the prior month should have tipped
me off to wait before the store opened. Afterwards, the store guy confessed
that they weren't even allowed to _recommend_ that!)

Things finally did work out in the end...

\-- Sent from my iPad ;-)

------
S_A_P
I wonder what his definition of "Just a little bit extra" was. This seems
fishy to me.

~~~
mr_justin
Exactly. The whole thing is fishy imo. Buying iPads privately and shipping
them worldwide?

------
jonknee
I wonder how would go about buying iPads for your company... One of my clients
is going to need ~6 for his sales staff.

~~~
kordless
Have them expense it? Of course then you limit their ability to buy more
themselves!

------
adnam
Or "Josef K. buys an iPad"

~~~
d_c
Hope there's no bug in it.

~~~
mturmon
An apple also figures in the story:

"One day, when Gregor emerges from his room, his father chases him around the
dining room table and pelts him with apples. One of the apples becomes
embedded in his back, causing an infection. Due to his infection and his
hunger, Gregor is soon barely able to move at all." (via wikipedia)

------
duck
This is by far the best article I have read about the iPad. It pretty much
sums up Apple in so many ways - you follow their rules, some of which are
unspoken, or you don't play.

~~~
hackermom
"best article about the iPad"..? The article isn't really about the iPad at
all. And I think you're exaggerating. It's not the first time a store or
reseller puts a harsh limit on items (does the "one per household" term spring
to mind at all?) It also seems as if the guy has been "ticket scalping", which
I believe no reseller anywhere accepts. The entire experience the guy writes
about is common practice like... everywhere.

~~~
jrockway
_It also seems as if the guy has been "ticket scalping", which I believe no
reseller anywhere accepts._

I am sure if I bought 10 eeepcs or something from Amazon, they would be more
than happy to fill my order. And if I wanted 10 more, they would send me
those, too. It's like if you give them money, they give you the product, or
something. Pretty awesome.

Anyway, why doesn't the OP go to Best Buy or something to get the rest of the
iPads? They probably don't care how many he buys. (Or rather, the shifts
change frequently enough that nobody will recognize him.)

~~~
GHFigs
_Anyway, why doesn't the OP go to Best Buy or something to get the rest of the
iPads?_

They probably don't have any, and that's important here. Unlike the EEE
example, the context here is that the iPad is in short supply. So short that
even the Apple store he was buying from had ran out of stock--as have most.
The story he tells is about picking up one he had reserved several days
earlier, and reserving yet another while he was there.

Now, from the retailer's perspective, this guy is taking the limited supply
away from their actual customers. Even though a sale is a sale and they are
making the same amount of money from it, they have no incentive to sell to
_him_ over anybody else in line. It's going to get sold anyway--and if you
have to pick between selling it to an end consumer vs. selling it to a middle-
man who is going to raise the price to your end consumer, you're probably
going to chose the end consumer. It sucks if said middle-man was really just
trying to do a favor for international buyers that can't get one any other
way, but his purchasing behavior is indistinguishable from someone who is just
profiteering.

If supply were adequate (as it is for EEEs, presumably) then they probably
wouldn't have taken notice.

~~~
jrockway
_this guy is taking the limited supply away from their actual customers_

What is an "actual customer"? Last time I checked, if someone is in your
store, wants to buy something from you, and have handed you their credit card
to pay for the thing of yours they want, they are a pretty fucking excellent
customer. The best, you could go so far as to say.

If you're worried about a secondary market, make more of your thing. Then the
secondary market is fucked.

~~~
GHFigs
I love how you ignore every single relevant detail here in favor of an
interpretation that doesn't fit anything but your existing biases. I love
consistency like that, it's amazing.

 _What is an "actual customer"?_

Someone who is going to actually use the product they are buying from you, as
opposed to someone whose sole intent is to capitalize on your product's
scarcity. The end consumer, as opposed to the middle-man.

 _they are a pretty fucking excellent customer._

And what about the next guy in line? The "actual customer" as above, who
doesn't get your product because you're too busy selling it to the guy who's
only interested in making it even more scarce. Like I said before, you make
the same amount of money from the sale, but if you can afford to be choosy
about your customers (and in this situation, Apple can), the "actual customer"
is the one you want to favor. The retailer has no incentive to favor the
middle-man, who _at best_ is going to raise the price to the end consumer
without earning you a cent.

 _If you're worried about a secondary market, make more of your thing._

In what bizarro world does this happen instantaneously?

------
eplanit
Wear it like a Badge of Courage.

You've certainly helped highlight Apple's narcissism and tendency towards
being a god-damned control freak. Making and selling products is about making
and selling products. They sold a bunch to this guy -- customers are to be
appreciated. Volume and repeat customers, who expose your wares to larger
audiences, are to be cherished.

Apple? they abuse them.

Substitute 'developer' for 'customer' in the above -- still true.

------
mikecane
The iPads were being shipped out of the country. Are there
certification/liability issues involved here where Apple is not permitted to
put a device on sale unless approved by gov't regulators? Could this be a
factor? I recall how Israel has been (still is?) banning and confiscating the
iPad.

~~~
VBprogrammer
It is very unlikely that the liability could be transfered to Apple in this
case. Of course IANAL.

------
jcmhn
Factor in the innate hilarity of anything involving the iCult with the soup
nazi reference and you have what the kids call "comedy gold". There isn't any
outrage here, just slightly amused contempt for the ridiculous way the retail
drones handled things.

------
joubert
A store _PowerBook_ ?

------
pathik
ROFL..

"All I can say is that you have reached your lifetime limit."

------
stevederico
I like Apple Products, but I hate Apple Retail stores. I buy online every
time.

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josh33
Can anyone get this to load or did you copy the text. The site is down.

~~~
brettnak
AFAICT, the site is working, just really, really slowly.

Google Cache:
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i-went-from-apple-store-newbie-to-lifetime-ban-in-one-
week/+http://www.protocolsnow.com/2010/04/17/how-i-went-from-apple-store-
newbie-to-lifetime-ban-in-one-week/&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us)

Bing Cache:
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US&setlang=en-US&w=a6ebafc1,c67ceb9a)

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evo_9
I think it's f-n awesome he got banned for life. If you read the article
carefully he tells you the reason why - he is buying and selling these marked
up (though he 'claims' he wasn't as bad as others - yeah right!). I hate
duecebags like this... you didn't play by the rules and you got burned. So it
goes.

Oh and really what does it matter, if the guy wants an ipad legit he can get
someone to buy him one later. Or get it used off ebay later. This will just
stop his bs mark-up scam, and probably scare off others doing it.

~~~
Nask26
If I remember correctly he was charging 650$ for a 16gb. Hardly making a
profit after all the fees and shipping.

~~~
evo_9
Ah well, didn't know that price, drag for him. Either way, it's not a big
deal, he can still easily buy them if he really wants too.

I think people would have a different reaction if this was their company. They
have the right to decide how and when they roll their products out, and mostly
this is an effort to keep the 'pro' traders at bay. They know this just makes
it harder, it doesn't stop them, but it slows them down.

