
Yes, India is a police state - Christopher Soghoian - kshatrea
http://blogs.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/WebWise/entry/is-india-a-police-state
======
smutticus
India is not a police state. India is a dysfunctional state only made
functional through continuous petty bribery.

Historically police states like Nazi Germany or Mao's China operated by being
well organized at all levels of society. India is absolutely not well
organized at all levels of society. Instead India seems optimized for the
petty bribe seeking bureaucrat. It's not the all knowing police state. It's
the disorganized mafia state.

I had an easier time getting a work permit in Russia last year than India. The
sheer amount of paperwork and rubber stamps required for my Indian work permit
was the worst I have ever had to deal with and I've worked all over the world.
All of this paperwork and stamping allows perfect opportunities for small time
bureaucrats to extract bribes and favors from people who just need to get
something done. So when I look at something like requiring ID to use wifi I
don't see Total Information Awareness. I see Tammany Hall and a genius system
that's operating exactly as it was designed, to extract graft from normal
people at every possible opportunity.

Disclaimer: I lived in India for 0.5 years in '99 and recently worked there
again in 2011 for a month. My answers are based on these experiences and of
knowing lots of Indians frustrated with their government.

~~~
vishaldpatel
Why didn't your employer get it done for you? If it was a big firm then they'd
have someone who knows their way around the system to get things like this
done efficiently.

~~~
jonathanyc
First, he never said it was a big firm, second, I don't see how your comment
is at all relevant (aside from being tremendous fodder for cynics).

~~~
vishaldpatel
Hmm, I don't think I was trying to attack his position as much as posing a
question. Any company that wants to hire a foreigner thinks about the ease
with which they can be brought on board. Companies that are used to doing so
in India tend to have people that can navigate the system so the employees-to-
be don't have to.

------
quanticle
I would disagree. India is not a police state. India is a bureaucratic state.
These regulations are not meant to frighten or intimidate people. As the
article points out, they're so ineffectual as to be laughable. Police states
tend to be quite a bit more brutal than that.

No, all of these regulations, permits and rules are classic hallmark of
bureaucratic empire building. All those Internet cafés now need to be
inspected to ensure that they're keeping track of their customers. The
department that manages to grab that privilege has access to more lobbying
power, more bribes, and more influence. Any politician would lust after side-
benefits like that. So, after any catastrophe, the answer is always more
regulations and more inspections, regardless of whether those regulations and
inspections would do anything to actually solve the problem.

~~~
CWuestefeld
_India is not a police state. India is a bureaucratic state._

Even that is interesting. It shows us that bureaucracy (and, I'd say, failure
to respect one's property rights) can become indistinguishable from a police
state.

~~~
smutticus
I'll just leave this here.

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Trial>

~~~
simonbrown
Also:

<http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0088846/>

------
dr_
A few years ago I had traveled to India, and had plans to leave the country
for a week then return. Big mistake. I was advised to go to the Indian embassy
in the destination country to get permission to come back. I did so, they took
my passport and told me to come back the following day, hence delaying my
travels within that country by a day. I returned to India ok. When i was
leaving India I was asked why I had not checked in with the local police after
returning. This was confusing to me but this said its a requirement for any
foreigner leaving and returning within a 2 month period. As such, they
wouldn't let me board the plane. I stayed in a hotel near the airport thru the
weekend. On a Monday I went to the appropriate station, where there was a long
line of foreigners in a similar predicament. When it was my turn, I was told i
would need to show proof of a relative or someone I was staying with, so my
uncle came and brought his passport and electric bill. Then I was told it
would take some time, but he went in the back, met the director of that
station and talked him up by mentioning people they knew in common and I got
approved. Then there were no seats on my plane available for the rest of the
week, but I had to get back to work, so I bought a new ticket and went home. I
am Indian mind you, although born and raised in the US. I will not be
returning to India ever again.

~~~
kamaal
>>I am Indian mind you, although born and raised in the US. I will not be
returning to India ever again.

Sad, I am Indian too. Born, raised in India, Bangalore.

The process you describe is something that every 'Indian' here goes through. I
was a little taken aback when you said 'I am Indian mind you'. I think you
refer to the legal status. Because although I agree that its painful- Being an
Indian you experienced what each of your country men experiences everyday. I
don't see why anybody would give you preferential treatment- merely because
you returned from the US.

Besides this reminds of an incident about Gandhi, when he was asked why he
wears and lives like a peasant after living in South Africa as a barrister
wearing a suit, necktie, pant and shoes all the time. He replied that only way
he can be one among the Indian and convince Indians that he can fight for them
is to live like they live, wear what they wear and eat what they eat. To rub
shoulders with ordinary Indian in their day to day lives.

Every time a NRI complains about stuff like this I always wonder- legally sure
you might be an Indian.

But are you actually an 'Indian'?

~~~
eshvk
I am confused: Are you actually saying that asserting one's Indian heritage
means that one has to accept all the shit that happens due to an incompetent
completely broken system?

~~~
irahul
> one's Indian heritage

Depending on your perception, either there is no such thing as _India
heritage_ or it's so broad that it's bordering on being indistinguishable from
non-Indian heritage.

1\. We are talking about a country of over a billion people who are
descendants of different races. Aryans, dravidians(I believe aryan invasion is
under dispute but there are more people leaning towards it). I don't know what
race the north-east folks are but they are different.

2\. We follow differing, and sometimes totally different cultures. North and
south India has different cultures; more so with north-east folks.

3\. We belong to different religions with different practices. Hindu, Muslim,
Sikhs, Christians, and a lot of other minorities. Owing to the huge
population, even the minorities aren't really minorities. The number of
Christians in India, for example, is larger than the number of Christians in
Australia.

4\. We have a vast economic divide. People on the peak and right of bell curve
have totally different lifestyle than those on the left. People who are on the
extreme right aren't any different from their else-world counterparts.

5\. Even among the same income group, the lifestyle differs depending on the
location. A person earning 25k/month in a small city and a person earning
25k/month in Bangalore isn't the same thing.

6\. Though the low-lives tend to go up in arms every few weeks ostensibly
trying to protect the Indian culture, there is no sole authority for deciding
what constitutes Indian culture.

If we talk about Hinduism, it has 4 vedas, 108 upnishads, and number of other
books. There is no canonical book and many a times the scriptures are
contradictory and/or ambiguous. More importantly, Hinduism is based more on
orthopraxy than orthodoxy. Many a times courts have quashed bullshit "against
Hinduism" litigations ruling that fucking read the scriptures, quote us the
exact lines, make sure other scriptures don't say differently; or else don't
waste the court's time.

Now one might say that most of my points are about lifestyle, and don't
represent Indian heritage per se. I would say lifestyle and companions are a
big variable in shaping a person's values and viewpoints. Heritage, as in
inheritance, depends on who you are inheriting from, and this hypothetical
Indian "who" doesn't have a canonical definition.

Personally, I was trying to look at myself and find out things which would
constitute Indian heritage. I couldn't think of anything. Would somebody help
me out with what constitutes Indian heritage?

~~~
intended
Right now? Helping out country men from the north east, and surviving the
daily tribulations of India with stoicism, and the ability to be open to all
castes, creeds and colors

The one thing that united most of India was mysticism and the belief that we
are one under some god.

You can experiment with that as a start. It's what bound the Sufis, Hinduism,
Buddhism, Jainism and several other religions during the best of our times.

We don't want to emulate our worst times.

~~~
irahul
> Right now? Helping out country men from the north east, and surviving the
> daily tribulations of India with stoicism, and the ability to be open to all
> castes, creeds and colors

The discussion started from a post talking about _Indian heritage_ , and the
things which you listed(substitute _people from north east_ with just _people_
) are basic qualities expected in a decent human being - there is nothing
uniquely Indian or heritage about it.

> The one thing that united most of India was mysticism and the belief that we
> are one under some god.

More often than not, I don't see a united India, which doesn't bother me much
as long as people treat other people as human beings, and not some abstract
entity(viz. Hindu, North eastern, Tamil etc). Countries are imaginary
boundaries, intentionally and/or unintentionally created for various
reasons(ease of administration among others).

Mysticism is something I never subscribed to. I was indifferent to religion,
miracles, rituals from a very young age. I believed a relation between me and
god is personal, and priests, temples, rituals have no business being there.
Eventually, I became an atheist. Granted not many people are atheists(in
India, or any other part of the world), but _people not into mysticism_ is
very common. I am pointing this out as you were listing it as something which
is inherently Indian, and I am saying it isn't and there isn't an authority
which decides the Indian heritage.

> You can experiment with that as a start.

Experiment with what? Mysticism? Show me, I will verify. If it works, at that
point, it isn't mysterious any more. If it doesn't, it is just imagination
gone wild.

> It's what bound the Sufis, Hinduism, Buddhism, Jainism and several other
> religions during the best of our times.

If that is the binding factor for you, good for you. For me, I don't give a
shit which part of world you are from, what gods you worship, what color your
skin is, what language you speak etc etc. You will get basic "one human being
to another" respect, followed by "earned respect". If I just met you, you get
the basic respect and empathy. If you are a superb programmer, good doctor,
good athlete, good human being... you earn my respect. If you are an
asshole(homophobe, sexist, xenophobic, wife beater...), you lose my respect.
My system works for me and I don't see a reason to switch to Indian or
American or Martian system.

~~~
intended
1) are basic qualities expected in a decent human being - there is nothing
uniquely Indian or heritage about it.

Yes exactly my point. Were you expecting rocket science?

The best parts of heritage come from doing the right thing. And doing the
right thing is often hard and stark. Today is one of those junctures.

Heritage is not just historic, its being built right now. Your heritage today
includes a grand ability to argue, and to mistake articulation for action. You
didn't come across as someone who wanted to leave it at that.

Re: mysticism.

> I believed a relation between me and god is personal, and priests, temples,
> rituals have no business being there. Eventually, I became an atheist.

AFAIK, the personal, as opposed to institution driven, connection to 'God'
lands under the penumbra of mysticism.

I am glad you have those answers, but those are your personal answers.

The answer to your question i.e. common heritage, is linked to 'Indian'
history, which in turn is inextricably linked to religion.

For example : When the Mughals first came here, (and ironically displaced the
previous Nawabs), they said that they found so many things different between
the cultures that they could never foresee common ground being reached.

It was when the Sufi saints came though, and discussed their take on religion,
that they found a lot in common with the cultures already here.

> I am saying it isn't and there isn't an authority which decides the Indian
> heritage.

I am not providing authority, I am providing history. You had a question, you
got an answer. If you want your answer to be something else, well read through
Indian history.

If anything, the history of India gives space for almost everything, be it a
Fakir who wants to be close to gods by being close to the ashes of the
departed, or someone who is an atheist and appreciates the logic of code.

\----

Your final para is about having normal standards to deal with people. Its a
great system, stick to it. But again, your question was about heritage not
common sense behavior.

\----

I am not sure what you were aiming for in your response. You've been able to
point out that India is very diverse, which I agree. I am pointing out as
well, that the way that melting pot was bound together was often through
mysticism.

\----

Here,

The west had its progression from the Greek states, their fall, the dark ages,
the renissance, the enlightenment, the reformation, along the way including
things like the french revolution, women's suffrage and civil liberties.

India followed another path altogether. Indian heritage is defined by that
path.

~~~
irahul
> Yes exactly my point. Were you expecting rocket science?

I was expecting a logically sound, coherent response - not straw-man appealing
to mysticism.

My original question was I am having a tough time figuring out what is this
Indian heritage, and I don't see which part of me comes from Indian heritage,
and not from being a decent(or indecent) human being and common sense. The
answer is none. It was as simple as that.

> Your heritage today includes a grand ability to argue, and to mistake
> articulation for action. You didn't come across as someone who wanted to
> leave it at that.

"grand ability to argue"

"mistake articulation for action"

Take a breath.

If you don't want to discuss(or argue as you put it), don't throw around
bullshit on public forums. More importantly, don't add more bullshit on
existing pile(mistake articulation for action? Where the fuck that came from?)

> I am glad you have those answers, but those are your personal answers.

Never claimed otherwise.

> I am not providing authority, I am providing history. You had a question,
> you got an answer.

No, I don't have an answer to my question that "I am having a hard time
figuring out what exactly is my Indian heritage". For the nth time, when you
specifically label something as "Indian heritage", it has to be specifically
Indian and inherited, not something which is common among people worldwide.

> If you want your answer to be something else, well read through Indian
> history.

Now what on earth would that mean? If I want my answer to be different, read
History? And get the fuck off your high horse. Reading a couple of books and
assuming other people don't know about Indian history isn't a commendable
quality.

> Your final para is about having normal standards to deal with people. Its a
> great system, stick to it. But again, your question was about heritage not
> common sense behavior.

Please stop intentionally misrepresenting my question and your answers. In
response to what the hell is Indian heritage question, you had a blurb about
helping north-eastern folks, to which I said is a common sense behavior and
not some distinctly Indian heritage.

> I am pointing out as well, that the way that melting pot was bound together
> was often through mysticism.

If you are just going to throw claims around, have some citations for what is
your mysticism and how it binds India. And no, "read history" doesn't cut it -
cite me particular instances and occurrences. India isn't and was never
bound(if it is bound at all) by religion.

EDIT: And if it's still too hard for you to comprehend why I was pointing out
India is a diverse country, my purpose was to establish there is no "Indian
heritage/culture/tradition/whatever". India is gigantic and diverse, and there
isn't a common pattern significant enough to warrant a mention. When different
parts of India has significantly different culture and tradition on
macro(north-south) and micro(tamil brahmins and non-brahmins, castes within
the same religion), Indian culture means nothing, and that is a good thing.
Same goes for Indian heritage.

~~~
intended
Do a quick search on mistaking articulation for action, it should be helpful.
The first I heard it from was a diplomat, Swiss I believe. The top search
result is from Sir Swan, the gent who reached both poles.

So that's where it came from.

It very justly describes the majority of India.

I used to use the India is too big and diverse argument myself.

Yes India is diverse, yes for every x it's opposite x' also exists.

I use it where relevant even today. Unfortunately with time comes change, and
that theory which I thought was unassailable, I can now see nuances in.

Anyway, it seems we are speaking past each other. I wish you well.

~~~
irahul
> Do a quick search on mistaking articulation for action, it should be
> helpful. The first I heard it from was a diplomat, Swiss I believe. The top
> search result is from Sir Swan, the gent who reached both poles. So that's
> where it came from.

I don't know how and why you got the idea I couldn't understand an English
phrase consisting of 3 simple words which are most probably part of a 5th
grader's vocabulary.

If you find "mistaking articulation for action" thought provoking and
profound, good for you. To each his own; many people find "early to bed, early
to rise" or "time is money" profound as well. The good thing is I don't have
to pretend I don't find it inane and obvious. I did a google search just in
case it has some interesting back story like "Keep calm, carry on" - I didn't
find anything.

When I said "where did it come from", I meant why are you throwing this at me.
Did I say by posting on HN I am changing India? It's like you randomly wanted
to use some phrase you heard somewhere and posted it in the reply.

> Unfortunately with time comes change, and that theory which I thought was
> unassailable, I can now see nuances in.

We are well past discussion, but your personal perception change doesn't mean
India has changed - it's still diverse and averse to generalizations. If it
were uniform, that would have been fine with me. But it isn't, and any
attempts to make it look so, or actually make it so(the horror) are just
wrong.

------
phaedrus81
I am not sure if India is a police state yet or not. I think tourists don't
have it easy as they don't understand the country as well as the natives. If
you are a native you do know how to get things done. However, it is true that
India is on the slippery slope where its most important democratic
institutions are slowly breaking down. The first to go was the media, an
example of which was the media now running paid columns as well as the attacks
on journalists who threaten the status quo. The next in line is the judiciary.
While the top levels of the judiciary seem to be still untainted, the lower
levels seem to have been corrupted. The Election Commision was tainted a long
time back as well. All this is happening and most of the middle class is
unconcerned at this stage.

~~~
intended
True.

The recent media coverage of the recent riots and migration was distressing,
marking yet another nadir in their slide downwards.

I got better reports from following leads on reddit and forums than I did from
looking at the media.

At first I didn't give credence to what people said about the media being
mouth pieces for various parties. Now I wouldn't trust them if they told me
the earth was round.

The judiciary is doing a better job, but are constantly having to encroach on
duties supposed to be carried out by the government.

Take the idea of Public Interest Litigations which were propounded by a Chief
Justice. They in turn became a corner stone of the fight against corruption.
Allowing people to take up injustices so that the common good can be defended.

Fortunately the election commission found its teeth a while back and fought
hard against to bring us fair elections. Unfortunately there were some signs
of push back against the EC recently, so the next wave is underway by the
looks of things.

Similarly the government is headed by what should be the most progressive of
leaders, the man who helped create the 1991 liberalization reforms.

Yet it is constantly hamstrung by its own politics to increase its power, and
at the mercy of pro communist, anti market, and anti progress swing parties.

The middle class WAS concerned recently with the Anna Hazare campaigns to push
for an anti corruption ombudsman.

That was frightening to an extent for the government because they had a vote
bank which was apathetic suddenly show signs of life.

The subsequent destruction and implosion of the organizers of the anti
corruption drive, have now left the middle class in a stage between waking and
sleeping.

~~~
ramkalari
I think Manmohan Singh gets far too much credit for the reforms. Those who
have studied Indian Economics will know that liberalization was forced on us.
We were close to bankruptcy in 1991 and the IMF forced the reforms on us in
exchange for a bailout. Unfortunately, having branded him as an architect of
our reforms, we have also set our expectations very high.

~~~
intended
What makes you think I don't know?

The balance of payments crisis was a long time brewing, and books have been
written to do it justice.

Heres how it went -

Rajiv Gandhi was murdered in 1991.

That year a "stop gap" intellectual was made Prime Minister, The now un-
lamented Narasimha Rao.

He chose Manmohan Singh, a quiet intellectual to be his Finance Minister.

Manmohan was the planner, and Rao the force that allowed him to follow his
goals. Manmohan in turn broke the task down and gave it to several different
competent people to implement.

At one point, over 3 days, the devalued the RS by 20%.

Following that he told the new commerce minister, P. Chidambaram, that he
wanted to abolish the export subsidy, because the lowered RS was enough of an
incentive.

That would have ended his Chidambaram as a commerce minister, since it was his
only way to encourage exports. Yet he had to agree in the end.

So he asked if he could also announce a formal trade reform at the same time.

He and Montek Singh worked to demolish the import licensing raj and had only 8
hours to manage it. They settled on an exim scrips, which allowed market
forces to help settle currency trades, and removed the bureaucrat from the
process.

40 years of red tape, vested interest, a wounded economy, and under the
hardest of deadlines they managed to slice off a huge chunk of that.

If you think, the details of that are trivial or obvious, please spend some
time to read the document.

When asked, Manmohan Singh said that it was worth doing, and Narasimha Rao
signed the bill.

Thats how a good team works. They had a good FM, a PM which was willing to do
the task, however reluctantly, and well ordered subordinates.

Other countries have faced easier challenges and failed.

And thats only the dismantling of the export license raj. They dismantled the
industry side of the raj. Then they went on to abolish the MRTP act, opened up
everything from banking to airlines, allowed foreign investment (remember Coke
buying thums up?), reduced tax rates, and on and on.

This happened over 2 years. They didn't have to beyond a point though. They
could have said "this is well enough".

\---------------------

When you say > Those who have studied Indian Economics will know that
liberalization was forced on us.

You make it sound like a trivial task. As if one were breaking an egg.

Ask Russia how it went for them after Yelstin, in contrast. I never saw tanks
having to protect our Parliament from a coup.

The theory du jour is to reduce the importance of Manmohan Singh to the reform
process. But these reductions first don't understand the role he played in the
first place.

~~~
ramkalari
I was a big fan of Manmohan Singh and used to be a vocal supporter. I had high
hopes too that we finally have someone who understands what India needs but
his leadership through these scandals has been poor, to put it mildly. In any
case, when it came to liberalization, he had no other option. The previous
budgets used expenditure control and increased exports as a strategy to solve
the BOP crisis but it failed miserably. He couldn't have ignored the IMF and
continued a policy that had failed for the last 4-5 years. In some ways, the
previous finance ministers were already taking small steps towards that path
by encouraging public sector disinvestment. I'm sure any other Finance
Minister would have taken the same decision. On the topic of execution, his
team did a great job. However, the Indian government always steps up when it
is in a serious crisis. Whether it is Kargil/ Commonwealth/Tsunami/Terror
attacks, we manage to unite in a crisis and find a way to get things done. So,
should we start calling Shelia Dixit the "architect" of Commonwealth Games.
I'm not so sure.

~~~
intended
His current leadership is poor, mainly since there is little of it, as I
stated in the grand parent post. So we are in agreement.

We agree for most things except the last.

No, other fin mins could have stopped short. As I pointed out in my post, this
went on for 2 years. Once the BoP crisis was over, and the gulf war induced
oil shock was gone, they had no reason to stay on course.

Check a chart on the price of oil for the periods under question, they
stabilize pretty quick.

more credit should be given to PV N Rao, who was the driving force and the
source of courage behind Manmohan.

Many people fail during crises. Just because some people step up when the
chips are down doesn't mean that their achievement was ordained. It means they
had the mettle and is actually more praiseworthy for their ability under
pressure.

This is also why I brought up Russia. They opened up their markets and it was
eaten alive by corruption the way a wolf eats a new born lamb.

Manmohan is given credit as the architecht and designer of the reforms because
he designed it and decided who was to head what committe and what they should
aim for. He obviously had people execute it. He is given credit where it is
due.

HPG Is given credit for Ycomb in a similar manner.

While you may have stopped being a supporter, like many of us, it should have
no bearing on his past achievements.

If anything it only highlights how he would have performed with a stronger
hand behind the throne, sadly.

------
suprgeek
The problem with the Indian govt is that it is known to take the most sweeping
knee-jerk but completely ineffective measures in tackling security: some
examples-

\- SMS used to spread inflammatory stuff? BAN SMS

\- Bicycles used as bomb placement locations? - ID needed to buy bicycles

\- E-mail used to claim credit for incidents? - Strong ID proof for surfing
the net

\- Many terrorists that the incompetent intelligence agencies cannot track?
every tenant in any rental place needs to submit to "Police Verification"

\- etc, etc etc

Incompetence and Dysfunction combined with corruption & fear - Result >
current state of India

------
sigkill
RE: Cybercafe - To be fair, they do this because they don't have the
infrastructure or the technology to track you and all your data.

RE: Bank accounts - Yeah, I've heard this happen from my friends. But they say
that it's quite much easier to open accounts in private banks as compared to
the "State Banks". But even they require some sort of person to vouch for you.

~~~
sifar
They should not track my data. Period. Yes, so one has to use other means to
remain anonymous.

------
manojlds
> Just finding a place with public Wi-Fi is a serious effort

That boils down, mostly, to poor infrastructure. It's getting better at
airports.

> This is a police requirement that is supposed to track terrorists.
> Unfortunately, we are yet to see a case where this requirement has managed
> to stop a terror attack in India.

It is known with proofs that many threats emails were sent from internet
cafes. That was the real motive.

> Photocopy issues

I carry color photocopied ids everywhere in India. This is about not knowing
where to get what.

> But no nation does it at the cost of its own citizens. No free country
> harasses, and humiliates, its own citizens.

TSA of the US comes to my mind, and that too, is just a security theatre as
has been pointed out so many times here on HN!

------
ashray
In all of this the funniest part is that the government/bureaucracy is so
uselessly inefficient and corrupt that the very IDs they ask for are
meaningless.

Case in point, my driving license has my name and address incorrectly written
on it. I didn't make any effort to do this, it was just carelessness by the
person filling in the details. I can now continuously use this as an ID
everywhere and they believe they are 'tracking' me. Extend this to the other
millions of folks out there who have similar documents.

The main issue here is that they are trying to track people with a broken
system. Their efforts at security are laughable at best and redundant at
worst.

Meanwhile the average Indian citizen suffers from documentation hell. (unless
they're friends with someone important ;)

Obviously there's also the question: Should they try to track you ?
Unfortunately respect for the average individual in India is so low that this
discussion does not make sense there. Privacy has absolutely no meaning in
India. It's almost like asking "Should dogs wear collars ?". There are no
philosophical discussions involved. Just practical ones.

------
areddy
We been called many names but never a police state.His cry is all about
providing id. One 9/11 and the government started stripping people and
entering your bed rooms.In India, the average ratio of a police to citizens is
around 1:200. This is from major cities. When you go rural, the ratio will
shrink further. Considering the number of terrorist attacks we have and
population density, ids are the bare minimum preventive measure we have.For
Indians, the accepted id can be any one of voter id, driving license, atm card
with photo, ration card, passport and college id. Even my son's play school id
was accepted in air port. We usually keep photo copies of one of the above.

I am surprised to see crap like this got many points. What's next? something
related to Jersey shore?

------
phusuke
I have a problem with people who like to call India simply a dysfunctional
state. What does that even mean? The author here is hypothesizing a reason for
the dysfunction. Its just a hypothesis but its still well ahead of calling it
simply broken. Also I believe 'police state' doesnt imply big-brother-esque
behavior on the part of the govt. Even unending policing and related rules can
be called that. Far too many people especially Indians take comfort in calling
it 'simply dysfunctional' thereby oversimplifying the situation and hence not
bothering to find out what can be done to improve.

------
ck2
Your police aren't given $100 Million from taxpayers to buy toys like this,
including land and air drones.

[http://www.theatlanticwire.com/national/2012/08/hardcore-
sec...](http://www.theatlanticwire.com/national/2012/08/hardcore-security-
gear-protecting-conventions/56174/)

I think US has India and virtually all other countries beat.

I expect they are going to start to do random stops for IRIS scans like they
do in the middle-east over here soon - you know, for all the terrorists
roaming our streets and airports and buses and trains.

~~~
tptacek
Huh? This article says that in India, the police have required store owners to
collect ID before allowing people to use the Internet, have required hotel
owners to deny rooms to people from Delhi, require police verification before
you can rent an apartment, and require witness statements to open a bank
account.

And so you have one article suggesting that the police somewhere wasted money
on an APC, and now "we have them beat"?

What kind of argument is that?

~~~
ck2
You are talking about policy which can be undone with laws.

Try DE-militarizing our police which respond with massive weapon-grade force
to unarmed, legal, protests (or shoot a dozen innocent bystanders to get to
one crazy person).

------
anuraj
India is not a functional state. It is not a state even. It is a collection
diverse states that are held together through British Era bureaucracy. The
states that indian union is composed of has very different outlooks and
cultures. Blame it on British for the invention of India!

------
dharmach
The Worst Argument In The World (lesswrong.com)
<http://lesswrong.com/lw/e95/the_worst_argument_in_the_world/>

------
rheide
Great website.. As soon as I open it a javascript popup shows saying
"ReferenceError: FB not defined".

~~~
eru
I get: "TypeError: Object #<Object> has no method 'api'"

------
leeoniya
"But no nation does it at the cost of its own citizens."

don't be so certain.

------
zakshay
My experiences are __unlike __the blog says. You've got to know your city and
where the services, things are not that organized ofcourse. Also, India is big
on Human powered telephony search query based services(see 1). It _really
really_ works here. For example, you could ask who runs the nearest color
copier via phone, and the answer would be SMSed to you.

Also another thing which is unique in India, is the home delivery & pickup
culture. You can get virtually anything home delivered like fresh meat, booze,
and ofcourse snacks(see 2) etc. Also pickup services like laundry (one of
many), are really popular.

Need a new credit card, or a phone connection ? You can have a representative
visit you. These kinda of services are primarily possible to India's abundance
human resource (and various other factors of course).

In my opinion, these are more accessible that internet based services are they
rely on a phone.

Its a pity that blog posts these get a lot of attention because of their
extreme nature. Most of the local media tends to be sensationalistic, for
grabbing eye balls I guess

My daily reads of good quality Indian news are

* <http://www.thehindu.com/>

* <http://india.blogs.nytimes.com/>

_References:_

 _1 Eg.<http://justdial.com>

_2 Eg. <http://www.delyver.com/>

~~~
kamaal
This is nothing new.

For a while talking in English in India was considered a sign of being forward
and modern. Parents used to take pride that their folks talk in English, even
if all they do is swear. It used to look odd, strange and hilarious at times.

And you see this India bashing not just in blog posts and news. But also in
Novels and books, giving a bad perspective of India to a already troubled-by-
outsourcing west sells well- Because it gives them 'See, we told you...'
moments.

Are there problems in India, sure there are! Like every other country in the
world. But NRI's talk about India like its the biggest hell in the world. And
how they are totally justified in immigrating to a different country. A friend
of mine went to do his MS in the US, when he came back for an yearly vacation
all he had to say was was how awesome America is and how horrible India is. He
seemed to find every reason under the sun why its worth settling down in
India.

Well if you want to go out and settle in the west or where ever. Sure you are
in full rights and please do it.

But justifying your personal ambitions by talking low of your country and
country men to make your ambitions not look greedy is really a cheap way of
doing it.

~~~
ashayh
"But justifying your personal ambitions by talking low of your country and
country men to make your ambitions not look greedy is really a cheap way of
doing it."

Pretty sure the reason why anyone "talks low", is because they are stating
facts.

~~~
kamaal
'Facts' are that our country still has a lot to progress. And people need to
do something about it.

Those 'Facts' don't give you a free pass to endlessly badmouth your country to
justify your immigration needs. While the actual 'Facts' you did it for are
totally something else.

------
huntesh
we are turning into communist nut-jobs. Thanks to the gandhi family and
congress. _gandhi family were lead in forming the congress party which was
formed under british rule to support british_ indra gandhi declared an
emergency and edited the constituent of india(made us socialist) *gandhi
brought u features like no more than 20 SMS per mobile no more cars below 16
liter/KM average 10^32 scams a shitty budget that gives average family 1000Rs
off on income tax while increasing taxes on corporations by a factor of 2 free
mobile phones for poor(lol) the biggest mid day meal till date(billions Rs
spend) ....I can go on all day

It was awesome during Atal Bihari Vajpayee time.

Wishing BJP(ie Modi) to take over...

~~~
kamaal
Don't know what you wish to say here.

I am a native Bangalorean. And from what I know of history our state. Close
99.99% of IT growth work you see today was the work of Deve Gowda(JD-S) and SM
Krishna(Congress). On top of that biggest projects were conceived under
Congress- IT Park constructions, Bangalore Metro etc.

Not a single thing has happened under BJP. The biggest scam in Karnataka's
history mining scam happened and was done by BJP MLAs.

Avoid venting your political opinions here. like 'intended' user mentioned
rationally there is hardly a party in India which isn't corrupt.

~~~
huntesh
not venting.

rationally trying to describe the shit ideas of the congress(gandhi family)
while the stupid UI at ycombinator does not add \n after I press enter.

the ideology that thinks the nation is before the single individual, will not
think twice adding stupid restriction like those mentioned by "Christopher
Soghoian".

the ideology is like this: since they care(as shown by providing free mobiles
to poor etc..) they have a right to act like parents and impose such violation
of personal rights.

the thinking foundation itself is wrong.

The same thought that imposes ban of cars above 16 km/liter average (ie
Ferrari will never show its face in India)is responsible such stupid laws.

The same thought that created ibfindia which is now censoring simple words
"menstrual" on TV because they think its their job to care what enters my ear
is responsible for such stupid laws.

congress is like a physco slut girl friend of every Indian

------
sudmah
IF I WANT TO GO US, I HAVE TO GIVE MY BLOOD, MY DNA. THIS IS DUE TO RISK FROM
TERROIST. HAS THIS SYSTEM EVER STOPPED A TERROIST ATTACK.

AMERICA IS A POLICE STATE WHERE IF YOU DOWNLOAD AND SHARE A FEW SONGS, YOU
WILL HAVE TO SELL YOUR HOUSE TO PAY THE OUTRAGEOUS FINES. ALL IN THE NAME IF
THE RIAA.

~~~
nrbafna
This is a wrong way to reason about it.

The article appears in an Indian paper, why single out U.S. as the country to
compare to?

Also, just because other countries have other restrictions (wrong or
otherwise), that doesn't justify such restrictions in India.

P.S. Avoid typing in all caps. It comes off as rude.

~~~
sudmah
I'm actually quite fed up with people portraying India negatively. Oprah
Winfrey has done this and I am surprised at how this seems to be the consensus
with the media.

Yes India has some issues with policy and infrastructure, however they are
trying to sort this problem out. Have you heard of the 4g network that's a
work in progress?

If you actually read the article you would know that non Indian wrote it.

"It’s a police state here in Delhi. Just finding a place with public Wi-Fi is
a serious effort, and then they copy my passport."

Now hold on since when was India, Delhi. Do you even know what a police state
is?

"Some want only a government-issued ID. Some insist upon an ID with a
photograph. And there are some who have a fascination for your passport or
driving licence – nothing else will do. I mean, just to check a mail, which
will take 5 minutes, you have to fill in a form (particulars in a register)
and submit a copy of a “proper” ID"

I live in the UK. I'm 27 years old and when I go to the buy cigarettes. I am
asked for Id, only photo id will do. I have no driving licence so am forced to
use my passport. Same thing happens when I buy alcohol and at bars clubs.
Having to give my id to an arrogant bouncer who can blatantly tell I'm over 18
is greatly annoying.

Every internet café I have ever been to in the U.K has CCTV. the owners of the
internet café also has to keep a record of all sites visited. Maybe India
should take this big brother approach.

~~~
kshatrea
> If you actually read the article you would know that non Indian wrote it.

Dead wrong. Jawed Anwar wrote it, a ToI columnist. He just quoted Soghoian's
tweet and used that as linkbait. I posted this article on HN, without the
question mark as heading, because this is one headline where Betteridge's law
would not apply.

~~~
sudmah
im referring to Soghoian

~~~
prakashk
You'd still be wrong. Soghoian's "contribution" to the article is just his
tweet cited by the actual author and nothing more.

