
History made in India: Govt agrees to anti-corruption bill - combiclickwise
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/Lok-Sabha-passes-Lokpal-resolution/articleshow/9759752.cms
======
GeneTraylor
(note: I don't mean to be rude, but this comment has barely been up for 1
minute and I'm already being down-voted. Surely no one can read something this
long this fast and down-vote even faster. I've tried to write a reasoned
critique of the phenomena before me. It's not a political comment, but a
logical one.)

Any constitution is a fine balance of power, a body like this which
concentrates power outside of the constitution without carefully thought out
checks and balances can be used to deliver the coup de grace to democracy.
After all who guards the guards?

This will be extremely unpopular over here, but the citizens of any nation are
responsible for corruption. Their leaders aren't alien beings who have
descended from planet Z to rule upon their country. They were and are chosen
from amongst them, and in a representative democracy it is they who choose
them. You might argue that the vote itself is an ineffective tool, and you
will be right, but it does offer us the opportunity to ruthlessly edit people
from power. At the end it is the culture of a country that shapes a leader to
a great deal. They are simply mirrors of society, but we seem to run away from
that fact.

The same goes for bureaucrats and any other malaise that plagues society. They
are from amongst us, and although the blame may be greater on some shoulders,
it is borne by all of us.

The inherent assumption is that the people in this organization will be
somehow pure, sans biases, and without malice. It makes me doubt this because
human nature being human nature, sooner or later someone creative is going to
come along and will convince people to side with him/her and play this
unbalanced system to achieve control. It's not a matter of if, but when.

Of course, I might be wrong and this bill might be a carefully calculated with
the calculus of power to be perfectly neutral, but I somehow doubt that given
the sheer PR and the herd mentality that seems to surround this. For example
the man portrayed as a Gandhian whipped drunks in his home town in the name of
"social progress", how is that behavior Gandhian? (I'm not questioning if the
behavior is right or wrong, I'm simply asking how can someone who whips people
be called the modern Gandhi?)

I think that something rather interesting is going on over here, and that the
true nature of this bill and the organization it will create will be apparent
as time passes on.

I honestly hope that it's genuine, and it won't lead to a calculated attempt
to gain power, but I wouldn't bet on it.

~~~
bbk
The Indian leader Mayawati has already demanded that there should be
reservation for SC/ST/OBC in Lokpal members.

[http://www.hindustantimes.com/Maya-seeks-reservation-for-
SC-...](http://www.hindustantimes.com/Maya-seeks-reservation-for-SC-ST-in-
Lokpal-body/Article1-738292.aspx)

If this continues, I dont see JLB being any effective in rooting out
corruption. It will end up being just another layer of bureocracy.

Edit:added link

~~~
maheshs
These kind of shits happens in politics in every country with some twist.

I had discussion with one of my friend in UK and stated his statement - "UK
has faced riots for 15 days and India has peaceful movement for 15 days"
earlier these statement used to be reverse.

Change always take time.

------
digamber_kamat
I think this forum perhaps would understand best what is the real cause of
corruption in India. In a place like Singapore an entrepreneur need to take
around 7 permission to start construction, in India you need to take 30+. Is
the way to reduce corruption is to bring a new inspector who will looks after
all those 30+ permission processes or to reduce these permission to 5 ?

Indian government employes 3 million employees out of which 1.4 million are
employed purely by railways. Does it make sense for the Ombudman to appoint
7000 inspectors to look after Indian Railways corruption or Should the
railways try to thin its staff by outsourcing most of it's processes?

Does it make sense to waster tax-payer's money on an ombudsman inspector to
look after corruption in a loss making government factory that manufactures
soap ? (Yes, in India government runs soap companies). Or should it get rid of
that factory itself ?

If you want to start a hotel you need to take around 300 permissions our of
which most needs to be renewed yearly. One permission for example is from the
'weights and measurements' department which certifies that all the weighing
scales in your hotel are up-to the standards. No one bothers to get their
scales checked they just send a packet of money to 'weights and measures'
department and get permissions.

The root cause of corruption in India is not in lack of some laws but the
policies which government has put in deliberately to ensure that politicians
are in position to control every aspect of it's people's life.

In software terms I would say Indian government is a case of bad architectural
layout. You have a zillion components tightly coupled with another zillion
components which are affecting performance of the system. If someone wants to
be efficient he has to hack the system. Adding another layer over this bad
architecture does not solve any porblem, you need to fix the basic
architecture first. Then talk about ombudsman.

~~~
chakde
Have you seen this or not ? <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2CHcKlIsvAQ>

It is not adding another layer, it is refactoring the system based on good
evidence that this has worked before.

People talking about real cause and root cause are welcome to start a movement
to solve that. When you are able to convince a few friends and gather a few
followers, please let us know.

~~~
digamber_kamat
What is there in those videos besides some Anna-glorification ? And to talk
about supporters, yes, there are a large number of people that think like me,
it is just that they are not firing from shoulders of an good intentioned old
man.

You can see the Facebook group: <https://www.facebook.com/Indians4Republic>

Or Pragati: <http://pragati.nationalinterest.in/>

~~~
chakde
What he is actually saying is that people are supporting Anna without
necessarily understanding the reasons why - then he proceeds to lay down the
reasons how we got to this situation after 43 years of the bill and the recent
increase in public pilfering.

Also given is the example of the cleanup of Hong Kong corruption using an
independant body with powers.

Interesting links. But the constitution does not say government should be
small. And flip side of great business freedom is potential for greater
exploitation. So you'd likely face headwinds as strong as Anna is facing if
you were in his position.

~~~
digamber_kamat
Constitution does not say government should be small but common sense does.
Also, wasting taxpayer's money over soap factories and airlines (not even 5%
of India's population uses them) is also exploitation which has lead to abject
poverty. A million children in India die every year just because of lack of
food.

An open economy is certainly not free from faults but it at least helps us get
rid of some basic problems. The new problems that arise that need to be
addressed then. Our primary objective must to end that acute poverty which
then leads to people selling their votes for a bag of rice.

------
blinkingled
As rightly pointed out by Mr. Hazare this is only half the battle won.

Part of the second battle should be simplifying the bureaucracy - paperwork,
transparency, easily interpretable procedures that are available for general
public and infrastructure to monitor the efficiency of the bureaucracy - how
many cases people brought, what was the resolution time, why was it not
resolved etc.

Because the above are the main reasons general public becomes willing to be
participate in corruption - the arcane, unclear, irrelevant processes that
lead to confusion which the bureaucracy uses for their benefit. If they attack
that issue and make the bureaucracy responsible and accountable that will go
long way in reducing corruption and making the general public happier.

That's the harder part though. Without it people will continue to suffer.

~~~
vinutheraj
There will be corruption as long as there are people who want to make a quick
buck without working hard. We can only try to reduce and discourage it.

The problem in India is lack of development and education and poverty. As long
as these issues are not addressed we will never touch the root of the problem,
and will be just trying to treat the symptoms.

~~~
blinkingled
It's a complicated problem - you're right in pointing out that part of it is
education and poverty / lack of opportunities for every class of people. But
again the bureaucracy is part of the problem - Government's schemes, aid
doesn't reach the poor etc.

In that sense making the bureaucracy accountable, transparent is the first
right step to resolve the other problems.

~~~
vinutheraj
Yes, that is right, we have to make things more transparent. The RTI was one
act towards that goal. Though, this particular act in the current form is not
the right path in my opinion. People elected into the Jan Lokpal will be no
different from people elected into parliament. There is no foolproof way to
prevent them from corrupted themselves.

------
architgupta
This topic is going to be a fairly polarizing.

NYT perspective -
[http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/28/world/asia/28india.html?_r...](http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/28/world/asia/28india.html?_r=fb)

The fantastic part was the peaceful way in which the campaign ran. No
violence, rioting, etc took place. Peaceful protests.

------
vinutheraj
IF the act is going to be the same/similar to what is mentioned here -
[http://www.annahazare.org/pdf/Jan%20lokpal%20bill%20by%20Exp...](http://www.annahazare.org/pdf/Jan%20lokpal%20bill%20by%20Expert%20\(Eng\).pdf)
then I will be very disappointed.

Creating an extra-body which itself can act as the police and be outside of
the parliament and be a concentration of power not elected by the democratic
process would be the wrong way to go I feel.

I feel the people have good intention behind coming up with this act, but that
alone doesn't mean that this law is the right thing to do. We are trying to
solve the symptom and not the disease. Corruption is just the symptom created
by the way our society and culture functions, we will have to fix the root
cause to fix corruption. I don't think increasing punitive measures is going
to curb corruption in the big scale. Corruption as a whole is weaved into our
social fabric. We would need a lot more than just a law to remove it.

------
prpon
For those of us who are not aware of lokpal or what the bill contains to
reduce corruption in India, can someone provide a brief summary?

~~~
digamber_kamat
Here is a critic of Lokpal Bill as proposed by Anna Hazare
[http://pragati.nationalinterest.in/2011/08/jan-lok-pal-is-
bo...](http://pragati.nationalinterest.in/2011/08/jan-lok-pal-is-both-
unconstitutional-and-unnecessary/)

------
vinodkd
How is this HN-worthy?

As an Indian, I'm deeply interested in what's happening here right now, but I
fail to see how this is useful in this forum.

------
goombastic
For a country full of software engineers and business process engineers,
India's pathetic bureaucracy has not been in any mood to modernize. Most
modernization efforts have been to buy a couple of PCs load up Windows and
wait for magic to somehow happen. It has not.

Open accounting, transparent gvernance etc were supposed to have happened by
now, they haven't. The bureaucracy is also extremely dismissive of anything
industry suggests as a better way of doing things. Anything that devolves
their ability to sit on approvals or wield power is shot down immediately. The
existing bureaucracy is a waste of tax payer money and an example of redundant
waste.

Even Slovenia now has bench-marked, transparent and open accounting systems.

------
sagarun
For those who wanna know "Who is anna hazare?"
<https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Anna_Hazare>

~~~
0xdeadc0de
Also
[http://www.punemirror.in/article/2/2010101220101012233239336...](http://www.punemirror.in/article/2/2010101220101012233239336854a4d16/Here-
is-why-RTI-activist-could-not-fast-in-Anna-Hazare%92s-village.html)

------
bitops
I'm going to admit my ignorance here...I understood very little of what this
article said and what it's relevance is. I don't follow Indian politics, so I
do not know very much about how the government works, what the Lokpal bill is,
or what it's meant to do. Or who "Anna" is.

Maybe somebody would be kind enough to post a tl;dr? I understand that there
are problems with corruption in India but don't know any of the background
details.

------
evolution
Surely it's going to be part of history. Besides there are being RTI and other
laws, it was much needed. This bill will be independent and answerable to
people not government. Hope it helps for good.

~~~
notanswerable
Actually they are not answerable to anyone.

~~~
ankeshk
Not true. They are answerable to the cabinet secretary and the election
commission.

------
delinka
I don't get how this is OK on HN but the articles on the "right to video
police" are not. Isn't this article also politics?

------
Garbage
Please note that, the bill is not passed yet. It will go to committee and will
be discussed in the parliament again.

~~~
dimmuborgir
Since Standing Committee is not autonomous and since there's a strong
political opportunism in giving support to this ombudsman bill, it'll most
likely be passed without much difficulty.

------
anon5
We can at best _hope_ that it is going to turn out well, in the end.

Anna Hazare is being hastily compared to Gandhi. Before this he had good
credentials, i.e. was fairly well known in India, but he was just one-among-
many-equals (not even first among equals) of social activists.

The positive though is that, the three most important people around him, also
have got good credentials. Okay two at least (Kiran Bedi and Arvind Kejriwal).
About the third - Mr. Bhushan - not much was known earlier.

Arvind Kejriwal in particular had worked very hard in the activism space,
being one of the key guys behind acts such as RTI. (It may interest the HN
community more, that he happens to be a product of IIT in India - the most
reputable tech institution over here. )

But this sudden burst of 'I-want-results-now' sort of hyper activism. Has left
an admirer like me _confused_ at best. Confused, as to whether the good guys
indeed are still on the right track. Or have broken down.

Broken down, akin to a website owner, who after years of toiling to build
traffic the clean and hard way, have suddenly resorted to black hat SEO. (If
the analogy is not obvious, I mean, just like dirty and unethical SEO, may be
easy to build traffic. Similarly _fast to death_ is an easy way to build
frenzy. Not easy always, but easy once in a while, and this technique was
being applied the first time in front of new TV media).

And just being good people and having good intentions is not enough. You have
to be a lot careful with these things. As they say 'With power comes more
.....'.

Want to recount an anecdote to make a point: Recently I had a reason to visit
a village in northern India. I won't polish my words here - The experience was
ugly. The village was very dirty. The people ultra lazy. Open drains all over
the place smelling bad. People just sitting idle. Houses in the state of
decay, but no body is working to rebuild them. Electricity comes only in the
night, that of course is not their problem.

My family and me had planned to stay for 2 days there. But had to rush back
the same day, as I could not simply just get myself to use the dirty toilet
there. (Call me whatever - snobbish, unfeeling, uncaring, etc. but I am being
brutally honest here)

So a thought occurred to me. That its not _corruption-freedom_ they need now
urgently. Its basic education (for their kids) and perhaps some inspiration
(and some training also won't hurt) in life to get up from their haunches and
start doing some _work_.

I may sound like a right wing capitalist here. But that's just a label, and my
anon status gives me the liberty to write freely. And BTW, in general I am
left leaning for various things - have followed Paul Krugman's writings for
past few years. And also, I am a big fan of the Mahatma Gandhi. (I needed to
say this, to give my fellow Indians, a background of where I am coming from.
So before even you start getting to abusing me, please at-least bother to
understand me)

On the matter of abuse, I feel sorry for Manmohan Singh our PM. People just
don't have any broader perspective. And can just so easily be swayed from one
side to another. Not long back - i.e. until about two years back - he was
being hailed as a great person, who ushered India into liberalization of the
90s. Which allowed the GDP to become 8% from and liberated it from the Hindu
growth rate of 3-4%. And allowed a great Indian middle class to emerge, etc.
etc.

But now, the very same people, are just after his blood all the time. I was
almost fearing that the poor guy does not get a heart attack, from so much
pressure, while every body else is worried about Anna's health (no disrespect
to him either).

Now on corruption: People don't even see the irony of what they are saying and
supporting. In the past two years lots of scams have been uncovered - CWG &
2G-spectrum-allocation the most prominent of them.

IMO two things that were most instrumental for the uncovering were: 1) The RTI
(right to information) law passed only few years back and 2) the CAG reports.
Powerful personalities went to jail (still are in jail) and many others still
live in fear.

So is that a good thing or a bad thing? Meaning, will people would have been
better off if these were not uncovered or are people better off now that they
are in fact uncovered.

The least the uncovering of these scams tells, is that the system is working.
So one would expect that people will work towards empowering the current set
of things (laws/institutions) which have proven that they are very effective.
And not indulge in hyper-activism, the outcome of which is at best
unpredictable. Even enact more laws, who is stopping.

But no sir. We want some more blood. And we want it now. So what, if the
movement or agitation, call it whatever you like, shames India into looking
like a Arab country. (Some lunatic journo, surely compared this with an 'Arab
Spring' ... I almost heard him. )

Silent evolutionary things, are much more powerful, than a revolutionary
change. The latter also can be helpful. But people leading them have to be
sure. Really really sure. I honestly am still confused, at best. I still don't
doubt the intentions of Kejriwal and Ms. Bedi. I hope they are guided well by
their inner beings...

And did I miss an Obama like orator, to articulate the government's
perspective on things.

EDIT: No disrespect to Arab countries either. My remark is only intended for
the rulers (kings) of those countries, which have obviously been abusing the
populace, who have now very bravely gathered the will to fight them.

~~~
chakde
I'm sorry but you sound very presumptuous - you could'nt bring yourself to
stay a single day in situations where people have stayed their lifetime - or
clean the toilet yourself - and you presume to dictate what is best for them ?

About the shift in perceptions about Manmohan Singh: a person who is an A
player in one position may well be a C player in a different position. It is a
fact that despite RTI which only affected the lower levels of the govt, the
corruption on the higher levels has only increased in the last few years. The
oratory you miss also affects the effectiveness of the government itself.

I think if you are interested in the subject it behoves you find out more
about the what and why before sounding off confusedly on the topic. More like
Kejriwal and less like Manmohan.

~~~
anon5
I agree with you on your second point. A person good for situation A may not
be good for the position B. But that doesn't give a license to rubbish all of
the person's achievements. As people at large seem to be doing the past few
days.

You caught me in one of my several weaknesses (your first point). But you must
at-least acknowledge that I said it myself.

Don't agree with your last para. Now you are presuming, I have not made an
effort. I did not read the bill. But I made efforts - right from looking up
wikipedia a few months back on 'Ombudsman' and many other things
(articles/views etc.) ...

And second point in your last para: Please distinguish between ambivalence or
(admission of _confusion_ ) regarding somebody else's action and accusing me
of being confused. I spent 45 minutes, trying to articulate my views (it did
tax my articulation capabilities) and re-read it before posting. I am not
confused at all about what I am saying. I am only not sure, if what's
happening is making sense in the right way. My hunch is that it does not.

EDIT: Corrected a few typos

~~~
chakde
Well props to you for truthfulness. I don't think anyone is rubbishing the PM
personally.

I was reading the Progress Principle today. It makes the point that setbacks
have an outsized influence on one's mental makeup - much more than progress
does. Check it out.

What corruption leads to is a set of daily setbacks to individuals. On the one
hand the govt says this problem is impossible to solve. On the other the
protestors say they have researched the issue and here is a way to solve it.

Which one do you pick and support ? It's a no contest to me.

I may have been ambivalent in April. But now in Aug, seeing that the govt has
watered down their version of the bill so much that their lokpal won't even
accept allegations of corruption from the general public ... it is clear they
have a vested interest in maintaining the status quo. That made me more
interested in the topic and I read the bill and both sides of the argument. My
conclusion is that this is the chance to grab. Even if it reduces corruption
by a few percentage points it will be a victory, and will release energy for
the tasks that you mention so urgently need to get done.

~~~
anon5
I am impressed that you read the bill, and then decided to support it.

I did not like the _process_ of getting it done, for one thing. We are having
this discussion in a much more civil way. But please look across the Internet
(just a twitter search on 'Anna' will give you all colors of tweets).
Particularly, in the earlier part of the fast. People are ready to
bulldoze/dominate/abuse others...

The 'I am Anna', 'You are Anna' irritates me. No body can have such a steep
rise in stock, in just four months ...

Wearing a black hat for a moment. The big suspicion I have is: 1) Anna was
used as a _tool_ by Mr. Kejriwal and Ms. Bedi. This is very different than
what Gandhiji would have allowed to be done of himself. 2) Anna also did it
primarily for _fame_ a retired activist, getting his time in the sun at last
...

Now again wearing my grey hat: I do believe that Arvind Kejrival and Kiran
Bedi are good people, basically. But good people also can be misled (they have
to be more careful.)

I think, my note above is written in a sober tone. I have just hinted (or even
stopped before that) some of my fears/concerns without going into some
specific dark doubts that I have illustrated in this comment.

------
naughtysriram
People wake up..!! There are two kinds of bribing/corruption. In most
countries you will see officers take bribe for not doing something that comes
in their authority or that is out of their authority. But only in Great India
we can see that officers take bribe just for doing their job which they get
paid for. Jan Lok Pal bill is the leash that the people of Great India have
got to keep all the officers tied.

------
digamber_kamat
Hardly any history. Matter of time this becomes another useless institution.

~~~
dimmuborgir
Well it's not a constitutional body. So as long as it remains independent
(most likely) it'll be lethal against corruption.

~~~
asdkl234890
_So as long as it remains totally independent (most likely) it'll be lethal
against corruption._

But what if someone tries to corrupt them? What makes them immune from
corruption?

~~~
kartikrustagi
They can be corrupt, but then according to the proposed law every citizen will
have a right to go to Supreme Court against the LokPal. This will surely be a
deterrent.

~~~
vinutheraj
I don't think such deterrents are going to influence corruption.

Does one decide not to harm someone, just because we have laws against it ?

By the way, don't we already have laws against corruption, why hasn't this
stopped anyone yet ? Are more laws going to stop it ?

