
Genocide and Jedi: Why the Sith may be Right - ryanelkins
http://arstechnica.com/gaming/news/2010/03/genocide-and-jedi-why-the-sith-may-be-right-in-old-republic.ars
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zavulon
There is a great sci-fi/fantasy series of novels I can recommend if you're
interested in this topic:
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Night_Watch_%28Russian_novel%29>

In the second book (Day Watch), the story is continued from the point of view
of the "bad guys" from the first book, and the reader slowly understands that
it's not simple good/evil, all characters have their own complex emotions and
motivations.

Warning however - skip the movie, it really really sucked.

~~~
kilian
Sure, It takes a person called zavulon to defend the bad guys ;)

The Watch series comes highly recommended though. Very fascinating series,
interesting concepts, nice writing style. (also, the movies are o.k. as well.
They get much better when you watch them a second time, as you see a whole lot
more clues)

~~~
zavulon
Ha! I didn't even realize the connection when I was posting this, that's
awesome

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ryanelkins
I thought this was a useful reminder that there are always 2 sides to every
coin. It is useful to understand your opponent's motivation as people are
rarely motivated by simply "being evil".

~~~
billswift
"Your enemy is never a villain in his own eyes. Keep this in mind; it may
offer a way to make him your friend." Lazarus Long

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chops
_"If you seek to aid everyone that suffers in the galaxy, you will only weaken
yourself ... and weaken them. It is the internal struggles, when fought and
won on their own, that yield the strongest rewards. If you care for others,
then dispense with pity and sacrifice and recognize the value in letting them
fight their own battles."_

―Darth Traya

Sounds like a philosophy I can get behind. It's just unfortunate that behind
all that, the Sith will force-choke someone to death for disagreeing with
them. But there are many aspects of the Sith philosophy that are appealing,
especially to startup founders: particularly that of passion, without which,
we wouldn't have too many startups. And Sith are at least allowed to love,
unlike Jedi (though, I guess love could be a subset of passion).

~~~
ryanelkins
You might like Ayn Rand's Objectivism. She wrote The Virtue of Selfishness,
among other fiction (most notably, Atlas Shrugged). To your other point -
perhaps even among Sith lords there are good ones and bad ones? No need to
paint everyone in a faction the same shade.

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philwelch
It's funny that you mention Ayn Rand, because (to be perfectly blunt) she's
kind of a watered down Nietzsche. And the Sith in Knights of the Old Republic
(the sequel to which chops was quoting) were very Nietzschean.

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nnutter
Not knowing much about the story I really enjoyed reading this article. I had
assumed the Sith were just about power-hungry evil villains.

~~~
bad_user
Actually, while watching Star Wars ... I always thought that there was a
mismatch between the Dark Side and pure evil ... are emotions (love, hate,
agony, fear) evil?

... well putting aside the Emperor/Darth Vader duo building an empire and a
big-ass spherical ship that could destroy planets, which was also a familiar
story since at that time I was learning about the Roman empire in school,
which went from monarchy to republic which then was subverted :)

~~~
sliverstorm
> are emotions (love, hate, agony, fear) evil?

I am not a Star Wars guru, but I always took it as allowing your emotions to
control you led you to do evil deeds and become evil. After all, a purely
emotional being will be selfish, vengeful, and a whole host of other negative
things. Love, anger, hate and fear are selected in the movies because they are
typically the most powerful emotions, and the most capable of consuming you
and causing you to act rashly and out of character.

The Jedi went to the extremes in their personal beliefs (avoiding love and
anger etc) to avoid the 'slippery slope' downwards.

This is, of course, just my take on the matter.

~~~
bad_user
Yeah, but isn't the other extreme (cold-blooded, heart of stone) just as
dangerous or even more so?

What's stopping us from killing our neighbors even when instincts of self-
preservation kick in?

I mean, while watching documentaries on serial-murderers, it's always baffling
noticing how disconnected with their victims or other human beings they are or
how little regret they have.

I think moral standards are highly interconnected with feelings, and that's
why it seemed weird to me.

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shadowsun7
But isn't that true for all of us? We are _all_ born wild, and unrestrained,
and emotive. And as we grow we're taught to control our urges, to be more
responsible, to practice restraint, and patience, and understanding.

And as surely as we're taught to control our carnal selves, so the Jedi are
taught to kill ...

(At this point I stop writing because I realize that I'm now attempting to
justify genocide).

Damn. This guy is good.

~~~
sp332
It's not genocide. It's based on a conscious religious decision, not innate
genetics.

~~~
scott_s
gen·o·cide /ˈdʒɛnəˌsaɪd/

–noun

the deliberate and systematic extermination of a national, racial, political,
or cultural group.

<http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/genocide>

~~~
sp332
I had thought of "geno-" as genetics, but Latin gēns can mean tribe or clan.

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sharpn
A Leo Strauss-style variation of the argument is here:

[http://www.marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2005/05...](http://www.marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2005/05/the_public_choi.html)

------
pmichaud
Surprisingly poignant.

~~~
brazzy
Surprisingly _ignorant_ about what the word "Genocide" means.

The Sith were not a people. Calling their prosecution "genocide" is like
calling the death penalty in the USA a "genocide against murderers".

~~~
yumraj
Well, first of all I'll take offense to _The Sith were not a people_.

Who gave you the right to decide who is people and who is vermin (or whatever
you mean by that statement).

Secondly, who gives you the right to decide who lives and who dies. That is a
very slippery slope and similar arguments have been used since as long as
humans have been on this planet to prosecute and terminate whoever didn't
agree with the majority.

 _Edit: According to some replies below I seem to have misunderstood the above
objection as the claim is that Sith were not "a people" as in were not a
group/race/etc. but more like 1-2 persons who were terminated. If that is the
case, I formally withdraw my above objection, else it still stands._

~~~
benologist
Pretty sure I remember reading or seeing that there's only ever two Sith at
any given time.... that's not even mass-murder let alone genocide?

~~~
rev087
As chops pointed out, that was only true during the Rule of Two. Before that,
there was the Sith Empire.

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nova
So, Shadows and Vorlons?

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mjhnghfh
Step away from the computer.

Go outside

Look at the sky

Breathe in the air.

Realize this is not real ......

~~~
ryanelkins
No one is saying it IS real. What's wrong with using fiction to explore facets
of reality? It's an idea that the entire category of "the arts" is based upon.

