
NYC Votes to Close Rikers Island - jbegley
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/10/17/nyregion/rikers-island-closing-vote.html
======
Shivetya
More impressed with changes to bail and what constitutes a misdemeanor and
more. modifying the war on drugs to target those exploiting others instead of
merely using would go a long way to meeting their lower incarceration numbers
they want.

but let us not kid ourselves, those numbers are not majority small time
offenders. a city that large has a good number of people not fit to be around
the rest

~~~
walrus01
Not specific to NYC, but the United States always seems to have plenty of
money for the criminal justice system and incarceration, but relatively little
for drug addiction rehab and treatment.

But look at the cost per day to keep one person in jail for a nonviolent drug
offense...

Decriminalization in Portugal:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drug_policy_of_Portugal](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drug_policy_of_Portugal)

~~~
shuckles
There were lots of European countries were serious drug abuse problems in the
80s and many were able to solve them (Berlin, Amsterdam, and Switzerland all
come to mind) with a range of policies on the supportive to punitive spectrum.
I don't know why Portugal tends to get disproportionate attention.

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VonGuard
Because Portugal decriminalized everything.

~~~
shuckles
Motivated reasoning, then?

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MisterTea
I'd just like to know how spending 8 billion on new buildings will fix the
scandal and corruption issues. I get that the new jails will be more modern
and humane but that's only part of the issue. The only thing this appears to
be doing is freeing up a lot of interesting real estate for development while
leaving more questions than answers.

~~~
sandworm101
This is NYC. The one rule in the big apple is that real estate trumps
everything. Nothing happens there without an underlying benefit to property
owners. That said, reforming jails isn't one of those things that societies do
in isolation. Jail/prison reform always rides on the back of some other
program. What matters is that they make the change. Whether that change is
funded by altruism or greed doesn't matter to those on the inside, today and
tomorrow. They only care about the change itself.

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pastor_elm
Rikers is a nasty place. I know guards that work there. Very soul crushing.

Borough jails aren't going to be any easier to maintain if the federal ones
are anything to go by.

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core-questions
Isn't that supposed to be part of the dissuading nature of punishment? Like,
aren't we supposed to deter the more basal among us from committing crimes
based on their fear of what will happen to them?

Obviously not to the extent of cruel and unusual punishment, but having a
rough go of things seems reasonable enough for a jail environment. It's not a
damned country club.

~~~
andrewxdiamond
As it turns out, not many people commit crimes because they are fun.

Deterrents like hash punishments work, but only to the extent that the person
has an option. Many people who turn to crime have no or few professional
skills, and would struggle to make a living completely legitimately. Hence,
they do what anyone would do in that situation, and commit crime to survive.

And when individuals are locked away in prisons for years at a time with no
rehabilitation, nothing's really changed. They are still in the same situation
as before, except now they have a criminal record, making their situation even
more dire.

This leads to a revolving door effect where many individuals end up back in
the same prison they just left. Not only does this ruin the person's life, it
also costs the public in both lost productivity, and costs associated with
housing imprisoned individuals.

Many modern countries short circuit this cycle by educating and rehabilitating
imprisoned individuals so by the time they leave their cells they are ready to
join the economy as an effective worker.

Think of it this way, if your child was struggling to get passing grades in
school, what would be more effective? Locking them in their room with a book,
or hiring a tutor?

~~~
core-questions
> Hence, they do what anyone would do in that situation, and commit crime to
> survive.

I will believe this when a person is stealing food, or even selling drugs. I
will not believe this when a person is involved in violent acts, rape, murder,
etc. which nobody "needs" to do to survive.

> Not only does this ruin the person's life

Arguably already ruined before they went to jail, in terms of their
trajectory. Very, very few of these people are on the cusp of turning their
lives around; it seems much more likely that they're just on the verge of
getting caught, time and time again, until it finally happens.

> it also costs the public in both lost productivity

I don't believe this. It's rare that someone in this situation would have been
productive at all, their entire lives, if the standard of "productive" is
"pays more into the tax system than they take out". Even if they never went to
jail, there's no reason to assume they'd be helping society somehow with their
presence. And what of the many other unemployed non-criminals who could be
being productive in whatever role you're imagining for our criminal sort? If
we're worried about lost productivity, surely they come first.

> Many modern countries short circuit this cycle by educating and
> rehabilitating imprisoned individuals so by the time they leave their cells
> they are ready to join the economy as an effective worker.

This is such an academic view of the issue. Ex-cons seldom get any kind of
good job - they're relegated to taking jobs that are stuck hiring them because
they literally cannot find anyone else at their price point.

> Think of it this way, if your child was struggling to get passing grades in
> school, what would be more effective? Locking them in their room with a
> book, or hiring a tutor?

What an utterly vapid comparison. Struggling to get good grades is not even
remotely the same thing as committing crimes; and it's not like most of these
criminal sorts haven't had 18 years of second chances and resources being
thrown at them.

You can't reach some folks. You can stop them from reaching you.

~~~
andrewxdiamond
> I will not believe this when a person is involved in violent acts, rape,
> murder, etc. which nobody "needs" to do to survive.

Agreed. There is a spectrum of individuals, and not everyone is good. However,
if you break down the types of crime, non-violent crimes are very much the
majority (0). Most people don't like hurting other people.

If you want an example of a working system with the mentality of "Rehabilitate
over Punish", see many of the Nordic countries (1).

> in the past decade, the number of Swedish prisoners has dropped from 5,722
> to 4,500 out of a population of 9.5 million. The country has closed a number
> of prisons, and the recidivism rate is around 40%, which is far less than in
> the U.S. and most European countries.

You can argue this is due to other factors such as overall wealth of the
nation, but that further proves my point that crime is more often an act of
desperation rather than one of sadism.

[0]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_the_United_States](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_the_United_States)

[1] [https://www.mic.com/articles/109138/sweden-has-done-for-
its-...](https://www.mic.com/articles/109138/sweden-has-done-for-its-
prisoners-what-the-u-s-won-t)

~~~
andrewxdiamond
Additionally,

> and it's not like most of these criminal sorts haven't had 18 years of
> second chances and resources being thrown at them

A lot of these kids _haven't_. You're assuming everyone grew up in a middle
class neighborhood with good teachers and was never pressured by gangs and
never mistreated by authority. That's simply not the case. If you examine the
personal history of many imprisoned people, you'll find a common pattern of
poverty, limited chances, and family issues. All of which aren't the fault of
the individual.

~~~
core-questions
> You're assuming everyone grew up in a middle class neighborhood with good
> teachers and was never pressured by gangs and never mistreated by authority.

I'm not assuming that at all, I just don't buy it as an excuse for anything.
Should we let such problems fester forever? Aww, gee, this kid grew up around
gangs, guess we better give him a free pass for a few crimes that we wouldn't
give to a privileged kid?

If anything we need to be harsher on gangland so as to eventually stomp it
out. Unless you think that we should just accept organized crime as a fact of
life and stop trying? Damn, those Brazilian favelas are looking better all the
time, eh?

> If you examine the personal history of many imprisoned people, you'll find a
> common pattern of poverty, limited chances, and family issues.

Probably also find a common pattern of low IQ.

~~~
andrewxdiamond
> Should we let such problems fester forever?

Absolutely not. We should take measures to ensure that individuals in those
areas are on a path to better futures, if not for themselves, then for their
posterity who will continue to live in that area. But you don't give people
better fathers and mothers by taking them away and abusing them. If anything,
doing that would just inspire distrust in the government and authority in
general into those kids, leading to a poor future outside of society.

> better give him a free pass for a few crimes that we wouldn't give to a
> privileged kid

I never said anything about treating people differently based on their
backgrounds.

> If anything we need to be harsher on gangland so as to eventually stomp it
> out. Unless you think that we should just accept organized crime as a fact
> of life and stop trying? Damn, those Brazilian favelas are looking better
> all the time, eh?

Ironic you mentioned Brazil, a country with massive crime issues and a grim
future, and also aligns with your "Harsh on Crime" stance[0]. Whereas some of
the lowest crime rates in the world can be seen in Switzerland, Denmark and
Norway, where prisons are rehabilitation first[1].

> Probably also find a common pattern of low IQ.

Wouldn't that imply education would help?

You seem to be contradicting yourself, I recommend reading up on the topic a
bit more to form more informed opinions.

[https://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate/2012/12/18/prison-
coul...](https://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate/2012/12/18/prison-could-be-
productive/punishment-fails-rehabilitation-works)

[https://www.ncjrs.gov/App/Publications/abstract.aspx?ID=1338...](https://www.ncjrs.gov/App/Publications/abstract.aspx?ID=133881)

[https://www.foxnews.com/politics/rehab-not-punishment-
must-d...](https://www.foxnews.com/politics/rehab-not-punishment-must-drive-
prison-system-key-leaders-tell-panel)

:)

(0) [https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/2540444/inside-brazil-
prisons-...](https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/2540444/inside-brazil-prisons-gang-
wars/) (1) [http://worldpopulationreview.com/countries/crime-rate-by-
cou...](http://worldpopulationreview.com/countries/crime-rate-by-country/)

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dantheman
I hoping this will reduce the number of people who await trial in jail and we
can move to more supervised release for people.

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creaghpatr
Aside from the history of the prison, I imagine there are more profitable uses
for that land as well.

~~~
hanniabu
Wouldn't be surprised if this is why it's closing. I'm sure there's some nice
kickback from land developers that will put multi-million dollar condos there
or something of the sort.

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dsfyu404ed
It'll be interesting to see how they actually pull off the prisoner reduction
numbers in practice. Hopefully they don't just start ignoring petty theft like
some other places have done. That would likely eventually result in the policy
pendulum swinging hard the other way eventually.

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noarchy
Maybe a small nitpick, but it was actually the city council that voted, not
NYC as a whole.

~~~
slimed
A nitpick for whom? OP copied the title from the Times.

~~~
dsfyu404ed
>A nitpick for whom?

For people living in the CA filter bubble where everything is done via ballot
measure.

Edit:I shouldn't have to explain this but not literally everything in CA is
done via ballot measure.

~~~
slimed
I see. Just pointing out that OP did not incorrectly summarize.

I sometimes forget that there are those who read the HN comments before
clicking on the article.

~~~
mc3
And in this case the paywall means a lot of us are discussing only the title!

~~~
slimed
Also an excellent point

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__jal
For their next trick, I would encourage them to abolish and reform the NYPD.
Although I fear if someone seriously tried, there would be a coup.

~~~
core-questions
I'm not sure I understand. How is a city supposed to function with no police
force? Wouldn't it essentially be anarchy? How long would it take for looting
to start, once people realize nobody will stop them? It only takes an hour or
so of rioting, usually....

If you did something like this, the result would likely be having the National
Guard come in and restore order and be far more oppressive than the NYPD is.

~~~
pjc50
I think people intend something more like the RUC -> PSNI transition, with a
wholesale replacement of only senior staff and a rebuild of the ethos.

Some of the US police problems might be solvable by a floating Federal
civilian force which could come in from outside to replace and investigate the
most corrupt local forces.

~~~
core-questions
That sounds more reasonable than "abolishing" it.

I'm not an American, but it seems to me an issue with a federal police force
is that federal laws may differ from state laws (e.g. with regards to
prohibited substances, among other issues).

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mc3
Whats the TLDR for the paywalled? Not from the US, but I get the impression a
lot of people were in Rikers on remand, some for years without trial. Is that
addressed, or it this just a move them to another prison?

