
First Maine inmate enrolled in graduate school conducts research in prison - bifrost
https://portlandphoenix.me/degree-of-difficulty/
======
JCharante
Portland, ME is a place where within an hour you could walk from the suburbs
of the city to downtown to the very end of the peninsola.

I'm really glad he turned his life around, but I'm also terrified at the
thought that someone got shot at a place where I've walked countless times at
night after school. The Old Port is a very small district, and life just seems
ridiculously safe there.

I think ideally this is the path that should be encouraged for inmates. We
already spend so much feeding and housing them, what's more to try to educate
them some more? Obviously not all inmates fit this description such as the
Unibomber, but it seems like job training or preperation for getting degrees
seems like a better investment than letting them out of prison without anyelse
to do but more crime.

~~~
Zancarius
> I think ideally this is the path that should be encouraged for inmates. We
> already spend so much feeding and housing them, what's more to try to
> educate them some more?

Part of the problem, in my opinion (which may be wrong; this is just how I
view it), is that our penal system focuses on punitive measures rather than
rehabilitative.

It's the same for drug addicts. While rehabilitation might be most costly
upfront, the reduced risk of repeat offenses would almost certainly pay for
itself, not to mention the related drop in crime stemming from such
activities. I recognize it's not perfect, but it's certainly better than
throwing otherwise non-violent offenders into jail with no hope and no help.

~~~
tropo
Our system isn't really punitive or rehabilitative, though we pay lip service
to both. (truly punitive would involve torture, and truly rehabilitative is
simply impossible)

What we are really doing is called incapacitation. For a period of time, we
eliminate the possibility of performing the crime. You can't rob a bank if you
can't get to a bank. If a person does a mugging every week, but that person
spends 80% of grown-up life in prison, we reduce muggings by 80%.

~~~
abeppu
This seems like it's missing the punitive character of imprisonment.

But even ignoring the suffering inflicted by the prison system, both on the
incarcerated person and their family, your example should make us ask -- when
does it even make sense to put a person in prison to remove the opportunity to
do crime?

How much do you think a person takes per mugging? People don't carry that much
cash these days -- suppose one mugging gets you $100 (seems high). Apparently
the cost of keeping someone in prison varies by a lot from state to state, but
an average value is around $33k, which comes out to around ~$630 per week --
i.e. we're likely paying more to keep your hypothetical criminal in prison
than they would cause in crime on the outside.

And when you look at stuff like drug crimes, it gets hard to even figure out
what the actual cost to society is for the crime -- but we put a lot of people
in prison.

Even if you disregard the suffering inflicted by incarceration, even if
innocent people are never convicted, sometimes prison is a bad deal for
_everyone_.

Also,

> truly rehabilitative is simply impossible

How did you reach that conclusion? Surely such a broad statement deserves some
support.

[https://www.vera.org/publications/price-of-
prisons-2015-stat...](https://www.vera.org/publications/price-of-
prisons-2015-state-spending-trends/price-of-prisons-2015-state-spending-
trends/price-of-prisons-2015-state-spending-trends-prison-spending)

~~~
fiblye
People carry out muggings with the threat of harming and killing people. A
mugging isn’t a mugging unless the person is willing to back up and sometimes
follow through with their threats. The punishment for them is high because
sometimes people die.

Muggings without violence or threats are called pickpocketing. Penalties are
far less severe. If penalties for mugging/robberies were lowered to pick
pocketing levels, Paris would have muggers in every train and far fewer
pickpockets.

~~~
abeppu
> If penalties for mugging/robberies were lowered to pick pocketing levels,
> Paris would have muggers in every train and far fewer pickpockets.

This is a good point!

But I think this effect is less about the "incapacitation" issue discussed
above (i.e. we would have muggers on every train because we wouldn't have
detained the muggers for long enough), and more about deterrence (i.e. we
would have muggers on every train because pickpockets would lose a
disincentive from mugging).

There are multiple dimensions to picking how societies respond to crimes:

\- denunciation: we publicly send the signal that your behavior was bad

\- retribution: we want you to suffer

\- rehabilitation: we want to help you become a better citizen

\- incapacitation: we want to stop you from committing crime

\- deterrence: we want other people to be afraid to commit crimes

\- ...

And all of these carry different associated values. My suspicion is that when
people attempt to justify the prison system based purely on the incapacitation
effect, they're trying to don some faultless, sterile, harmless guise. "I'm
not a bad guy for wanting people to be in prison; I just want my neighborhood
to be safe!" But I think often a desire for denunciation, or retribution, or
even angst about deterrence is at play.

~~~
tropo
I wasn't trying to justify the prison system based on anything. We use
incapacitation, but that doesn't justify anything.

I wasn't trying to don some faultless, sterile, harmless guise. To eliminate
your suspicion: my preference is for a combination of retribution, deterrence,
and restitution. I'm in no way ashamed to say that I prefer those over
incapacitation. Sadly, the USA mainly uses incapacitation, probably because it
causes the least outrage.

BTW, you left some items off your list:

\- restitution: the criminal must pay back the victim or the society for the
harm caused (with money, organs, etc.)

\- religion: we must do something (crucifixion, stoning, amputation, etc.)
demanded by God

~~~
sterlind
Perhaps it is useful to separate means from ends. Of course, we both agree
that we want less crime (as an end), but I might favor rehabilitation as an
end - I want prisoners to find their way back to productive society because I
care - but not as a means - I might not think rehabilitating inmates reduces
crime.

Do you favor retribution as a end, or a means?

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adjkant
Getting a database error currently:
[https://web.archive.org/web/20200128215945/https://portlandp...](https://web.archive.org/web/20200128215945/https://portlandphoenix.me/degree-
of-difficulty/)

~~~
bifrost
Probably slashdotted by HN users heh.

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dollar
The United States is a prison, the world's largest prison. You don't realize
how quickly you can be accused of a crime you didn't commit, standing in front
of a judge that doesn't care about truth or justice.

~~~
himinlomax
It's crazy how easy it is to end up in prison in the US compared to Europe.
Most people don't realize this. The consequences are also radically different.
Former inmates are fucked for life in the US.

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frandroid
[http://web.archive.org/web/20200128215945/https://portlandph...](http://web.archive.org/web/20200128215945/https://portlandphoenix.me/degree-
of-difficulty/)

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annoyingnoob
>At the last graduation ceremony at Maine State Prison, Brown delivered a
speech in which he spoke of the potential for prisons to become hubs of
education, because of the power of education to change lives.

Brown is on to something here. Our current prison system could use a lot of
improvement, current recidivism rates are out of control.
[https://www.bjs.gov/index.cfm?ty=pbdetail&iid=6266](https://www.bjs.gov/index.cfm?ty=pbdetail&iid=6266)

~~~
vinniejames
For profit prisons create incentives to boost recidivism

~~~
rayiner
Okay so what’s driving recidivism in the 92% of the former prison population
that wasn’t housed in a for-profit prison? What’s driving recidivism in states
like Illinois and New York where private prisons have long been banned? Or the
23 other states where, although private prisons aren’t banned per se, private
prisons hold 0-1% of inmates?

~~~
mrguyorama
What many people seem to miss in the "only 8% of prisons are private prisons"
claim is that large amounts of services and functions are run by private
contractors and companies even in "public" prisons. Just because the land and
building are owned by the state doesn't mean some CEO is raking in the money
off of pseudo-slave labor, extortion for basic things like phone calls, and
profiteering.

------
seibelj
Inmates have nothing but time on their hands. We should give the
mathematically inclined unsolved problems to turn over, and simple Raspberry
Pis (even disconnected from the internet) for the means to code new software.
If you have nothing but a wall to stare at for 12 hours a day, you may create
something useful.

If I had the power I would free every non-violent prisoner. Any person in jail
for putting a substance into their own body, or for selling such a substance,
does not deserve to be there. Such a waste of society's resources and talent.

~~~
burtonator
I argued this with my dad saying that people deserve our compassion and
someone could discover a cure for cancer.

He said he'd rather die from cancer than help someone who committed a felony.

~~~
tehlike
Unfortunately a very american view. Hope new generations can right our wrongs.

~~~
bifrost
I've heard this from the EU, China, Australia, India, Canada and Japan... It
seems to be popular in "law and order" societies.

~~~
tehlike
I am not sure if i call all of the countries in this list "law and order".

It kind of just sucks that people and their offspring has to suffer through a
bad decision this bad. I wish we had better use of the downtime they have in
prison, to societies benefit, onstead of the private corp that is the prison
operator.

~~~
throwaway17_17
You are making an unfounded assumption that prisoners on the whole desire to
benefit society. I certainly know convicted felons and former inmates who
truly do fit that mold, but I also know vastly more who could not be bothered
to give a single seconds thought for society or what benefits it.

~~~
bifrost
I too have personal examples on both sides.

I have an acquaintance who was convicted of fraud, sentenced to 5 years, got
out early due to performing community service in jail. Haven't heard much from
him after he got out though.

I have another friend who was convicted of manslaughter, he's been a very
productive member of society since he was released and I feel that he's very
trustworthy. I've known him for 15 years and maybe he's had some parking
tickets...

A former peer was convicted of sex crimes in the early 2000s, he's reoffended
in multiple countries.

A friend of a friend was convicted of eco terrorism, they've been on the run
but keeping in contact somehow, they've apparently destroyed millions of
dollars in properties and have yet to be caught again.

If you look at the police blotter in my city, its pretty much all repeat
offenders.

------
ryanmercer
Me: working full time just to make ends meet, not a lot of time for college
and don't want to take on more than a year of my income as student loan debt
that will take a decade or more to pay off.

Convicted criminal: all the free time, working on masters degree (possibly
considerably subsidized, if not for free as there are various programs that
provide college courses for free to inmates).

Good for them I guess. Rehabilitation is truly a great thing, doesn't make it
sting any less though. I play by the rules and have to struggle to attempt to
get ahead, they break the rules to the point of being ordered to live in a
cage for a period of time and are afforded the opportunity of unlimited
studying time and degree programs.

And before someone says "but their crime will make it hard for them to get a
job" so does my bankruptcy from 7ish years ago. Anything dealing with money
and companies won't touch you with a bankruptcy and anything requiring a
security clearance wont touch you either.

------
40acres
It's time to move to what criminal reform activists call 'restorative
justice'. We lock you up, possibly contract your labor to some shady
organization, and don't provide enough tools for those who've served their
time to get back on their feet and contribute.

We can see these effects in the economy if you look closely, the labor
participation rate among men is declining, most new jobs (which are service
jobs) go to women, millions of men are missing in our society due to this
system which throws away human capital. For what?

~~~
throwaway894345
> We can see these effects in the economy if you look closely, the labor
> participation rate among men is declining, most new jobs (which are service
> jobs) go to women, millions of men are missing in our society due to this
> system which throws away human capital. For what?

Is that the cause? I've always heard it was due to changes in education
policy/practice that resulted in lower graduation rates for males (I know some
people here will reflexively think I'm challenging something; I'm not, this is
a genuine question, and for the little I know about it, restorative justice
sounds like a pretty good idea).

~~~
40acres
I don't believe the cause has been definitely described. Education plays a
part, the transition to a service economy plays a part, perhaps even video
games play a part. I do believe that it's clear that labor force participation
among males has been declining in past decades while the number of folks
incarcerated has risen and that there is no doubt a relation between the two.

~~~
throwaway894345
> labor force participation among males has been declining in past decades
> while the number of folks incarcerated has risen and that there is no doubt
> a relation between the two

Would be interesting to look at male education outcomes, labor force
participation, and incarceration rates and compare them against their female
equivalents. I know for fact that female education and labor force outcomes
have been improving at the expense of male outcomes, but I'm not sure about
female incarceration rates. My guess is that they are also increasing, but
perhaps not at the same rate as male rates?

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arberavdullahu
I get Error establishing a database connection

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moneywoes
Does the website not work for anyone else

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shpongled
As a fellow graduate student (but not inmate), I also feel like I am
conducting research in prison.

------
tempsy
It’s honestly insane how a prisoner gets free healthcare, education, shelter,
food, etc. and yet those who do not commit crimes are (ironically) “chained”
by debt instead to pay for all those things.

Honestly if you’re in bad health, old, and have limited savings it would
probably be better to just commit a white collar crime and go to prison than
to die in sickness and poverty.

~~~
Ghjklov
On the other hand, if you're young, one route is to join the military for a
lot of those same benefits. That's what I should do honestly, but I value my
free time and peace of mind as a civilian too much.

You should look at it this way. You either pay in money through debt, or you
pay with your mind and body as a military personnel or a prisoner. Both sucks
ass and none of us are any better under this rotten system.

~~~
throwaway17_17
Your assertion that military service in the US “sucks ass” is rather
inflammatory. The United States Military has provided a life changing means
and opportunity for many. I’m not denying that the risks and imposition is not
substantial. Speaking for myself, I am permanently disabled as a direct result
of my period of service in the Army. But, I would not change that decision for
anything.

I know people will make a judgement about the sacrifices entailed in service,
but “sucks ass” is too broad and too far a generalization.

~~~
Ghjklov
Context here matters a bit. Having to choose between going to prison or
joining the military just to get education, shelter, and food is a very "sucks
ass" situation.

~~~
beerandt
I don't think your context is as vindicating as you might think.

That's not a decision, let alone a difficult one.

------
nikanj
There's a Shawshank Redemption joke hidden in the headline, but I'm just going
to go with heartfelt congratulations instead. Good job on turning that spiral
upwards!

