
The 4-Hour Dentist - zdw
http://bygonebureau.com/2011/02/02/4-hour-dentist/
======
ryanwaggoner
Huzzah! A straw man attack!

Am I seriously the only person on HN who has gotten useful, effective stuff
from both of Tim's books? Does everyone just hate him because he's such an
effective promoter that they assume he must be selling snake oil?

4HWW led me to quit my job and start freelancing, spend three months traveling
through Asia, build some online passive income streams, and generally have a
healthier respect towards my time and how I spend it. The 4 Hour Body has led
me to completely change my diet over the last 6-8 weeks and I feel incredible,
better than I have in a long time.

I know I'm not the only one, but am I the only one on HN?

~~~
klbarry
It reminds me of the criticisms of Guy Kawasaki (of Rich Dad, Poor Dad fame).
He gives mostly excellent advice, but markets it to the lowest common
denominator so a lot of smart people turn away.

It actually shows something about the HN crowd. We're actually susceptible to
marketing; the stuff we value is stuff that doesn't look like 4 hour workweek,
even if it might work better.

EDIT: It's actually Robert Kiyosaki, how embarassing.

~~~
rikthevik
Woah. Guy Kawasaki was chief evangelist at Apple.

Robert Kiyosaki is the hack who wrote Rich Dad, Poor Dad, a book that
advocates highly risky real estate maneuvers and multi-level marketing. His
books are endorsed by the newest incarnation of Amway.

~~~
salemh
<http://www.johntreed.com/Kiyosaki.html>

"A number of people asked me about Robert T. Kiyosaki and his book Rich Dad,
Poor Dad. When I said I didn’t think he was a real-estate guru, they insisted
he was. Several told me I would like him, that he preaches a message like
mine. Eager to find such a guru, I bought his book, Rich Dad, Poor Dad, in a
bookstore.

Summary Rich Dad, Poor Dad is one of the dumbest financial advice books I have
ever read. It contains many factual errors and numerous extremely unlikely
accounts of events that supposedly occurred.

Kiyosaki is a salesman and a motivational speaker. He has no financial
expertise and won’t disclose his supposed real estate or other investment
success.

Rich Dad, Poor Dad contains much wrong advice, much bad advice, some dangerous
advice, and virtually no good advice."

------
joshkaufman
Much of what Tim Ferriss writes is genuinely useful, particularly when it
comes to experimentation, testing, and questioning assumptions.

Unfortunately, these messages are (1) packaged in the form of breathlessly-
sold, instant-results snake oil; (2) explicitly modeled on the past 20 years
of _Men's Health_ and _Cosmopolitan_ magazine covers; (3) contain obnoxious
levels of social signaling and influence-via-association.

The reality is the above three factors are what have contributed the most to
his renown. People want to instantly become wealthy, famous, and desirable
with zero effort. They want to believe that someone (anyone) can provide these
things, and they're willing to pay money on the off-chance they're able to
deliver. They want to be associated with someone who travels around the world,
hangs out with famous people all day, and seemingly succeeds in everything.

Ferriss promises people exactly what they want, so they buy. Simple as that.

The operative question for all of us on HN: what Ferriss does clearly works.
Do you choose to emulate him? Why or why not?

~~~
ryanwaggoner
This is a (relatively) good summary of the situation. I think you exaggerate
on point #1, but it doesn't really matter, so let's not quibble.

Your question is interesting though: if you have genuinely good content (or
functionality), do you market it as aggressively as possible, knowing that if
you don't, less useful stuff by superior marketers is going to win out?
Doesn't game theory indicate that you should, if you want to positively impact
as many as possible?

~~~
joshkaufman
I think it goes deeper than that - it deeply influences the market you choose
to serve in the first place.

If you can semi-credibly promise to give people instant results in wealth,
physique, sex, etc - your offer _will_ sell.

The real question isn't whether or not you choose to market your offer
aggressively. It's whether or not you choose to enter those specific (proven)
markets, using that specific (proven) approach, knowing full well that you're
intentionally exaggerating for the sake of attention and results.

Personally, I've intentionally made the decision not to go that route. It
makes my job more difficult, but it's a tradeoff I'm willing to make.

~~~
eavc
As someone who once dabbled in coaching, allow me to say that I always noticed
you as an example of a person doing it in a way that I found honorable and
admirable. The integrity you mention here is certainly a large part of why.

~~~
joshkaufman
Thanks - that means a lot to me!

------
chrisaycock
That's precisely what I've been thinking about Tim Ferriss. His books look
like get-rich-quick nonsense pawned off on the gullible. No notion of the hard
work (and natural talent) required to build a great business or become a
successful athlete. His next book will surely claim that we can all make
Carnegie Hall with minimal practice.

~~~
ryanwaggoner
Tim's books are effectively about finding the 20% of your efforts that give
you 80% (or 90%) of your results, and then just doing those things. They've
both been very effective for me (as in, they've introduced life-changing ideas
and strategies to me), but you sound like you've made up your mind. Have you
read them?

~~~
kmfrk
You've basically described all self-help books in the history of mankind.

~~~
ryanwaggoner
You're not making sense. So if a book purports to help someone, it's
automatically bullshit? Even if many people have found it to be useful and to
have a positive impact in their lives?

~~~
kmfrk
I'm just saying that you are doing a poor job of dispelling people's
reservations.

What I'm saying makes perfect sense to people who can't stand the industry and
Tim Ferris. I don't know what it looks like to you.

There will always be people who love something, regardless of what it is, and
whether it works or not.

~~~
JimJones
And crosshairs in moon landing photos make perfect sense to people who belive
it was faked.

Tim's books have some worthwhile advice backed by solid data and also some
very anecdote-based conclusions. If you're not flat out calling him a liar,
his methods have worked for at least himself. That's all that he claims. If
you want to know if they'll work for you, try some of them or do the research
yourself.

------
jacques_chester
I haven't read any of his books, but as an Australian, Mr Ferris's tone fills
me with dread, suspicion and an instinctual need to take the piss.

I've seen various endorsements here on HN of the diet and the training
regimen. In both cases I have a point to make: almost all of you are seeing
novice gains.

Strength coaches recognise this phenomenon. The novice can see amazing gains
in hypertrophy and strength in a short time with very little stimulus because
they have never had to adapt before. Their capacity for adaptation is barely
tapped by infrequent training and they're coming off a low base. It is not
uncommon to see total newbs put on a decent weights program add substantial
weight to both bar and body in 8 weeks.

In fact, novices are so underadapted that almost any training at all will see
improvements in strength. Riding a bicycle will improve squat maxes, for the
novice.

Likewise with diets. Often folk swear by diet X because it works for them. One
of three things is usually happening:

1\. It's their first diet, and they're simply having a caloric deficit for the
first time in their lives.

2\. They're still enthusiastic and regimented when they make the endorsement.
Boredom has yet to set in and sabotage the gains.

3\. They're an experienced dieter, having tried quite a few; but this
particular diet just so happens to fit their particular combination of taste,
hormonal cycles, insulin resistance, adipose senstivity juuuust right.

It's not linear. Did you gain/lose 10kg this month? Don't count on it next
month. Maybe 9. Don't count on it for a year, either. In my first month
serious weight training I added 60kg to my squat max. If progress was linear I
should be squatting several tons by now.

But it isn't. Eventually you require more and more stimulus to disrupt
homeostasis, to force new adaptation of the muscle, bone, tendon, nervous,
cardiovascular and endocrine systems.

Take my sport: Olympic weightlifting. When I first started I went from naked
bar to snatching 60kg in about 6 weeks. On a linear basis I would be snatching
750kg or so at this point, which would make the world-record holder by a
factor of 3. Of course that doesn't happen, currently I am just shy of
snatching 120kg.

With a goal of snatching 130kg in March, I am now training twice a day, four
days a week.

Elite-level international competitors in my sport will train 3-6 times per
day, 6 days per week. At the elite level it takes enormous stimulus to cause
adaptation. 4 hours per month, let alone per week, just isn't going to work.

One more thing. Apparently Feriss mentions hCG in his book as an aid to sexual
performance. Does he mention that its major use as post-cycle therapy for
steroid users? Because, to be quite honest, I would be surprised to find _any_
iron sport enthusiast using hCG who wasn't also performing the twist-and-jab
exercise first.

~~~
jonmc12
I think you are missing the point of the book (not surprising since you did
not read it).

The thesis of the 4-hour body is to understand as much of the science as
meaningful, and then to do the absolute minimum in terms of diet and exercise
in order to improve your body. As you know, the book is written for a general
audience.

As an elite athlete, it may be easy for you to look at the situation and say
'you are seeing novice gains'. But thats not the point. The point is that the
book is a knowledge repository for me to accomplish the goals the author has
set forth.

Instead of just criticizing, perhaps you can offer a suggestion for a better
alternative of a knowledge repository aimed at the goals and the audience Tim
Ferriss is trying to impact?

~~~
jacques_chester
> The thesis of the 4-hour body is to understand as much of the science as
> meaningful, and then to do the absolute minimum in terms of diet and
> exercise in order to improve your body

And my point is that the absolute minimum is all you need to get novice gains,
_in any system_. High reps, low reps. High frequency, low frequency. High
intensity, low intensity. High density, low density. High volume, low volume.
High tempo, low tempo. _They will all work for the novice_ , just not very
long. Nothing I have heard about this book changes this fact.

> Instead of just criticizing, perhaps you can offer a suggestion for a better
> alternative of a knowledge repository aimed at the goals and the audience
> Tim Ferriss is trying to impact?

For novices, the go-to golden standard is _Starting Strength_ by Rippetoe.
He's a strength coach with decades of both practical and research experience.
I'd back him in a controlled twin study against Feriss for AU$1000 right now.

~~~
jonmc12
Again, you seem to think the book is about this claim that TF has invented
some new kind of workout routine. Its not.

At a novice level there is a minimum amount of work that can be done to get
the desired outcome. Further, an intermediate or professional athlete also has
a minimum amount of work that can be done to get their desired outcome. In
every goal, no matter what your experience or skill level, there is a minimum
amount of work for the desired outcome.

How do you quantify this minimum amount of work is? The 4 hour body prescribes
a methodology of continual trial and measurement. That is what the book is
about.. applying this principle to your goals for your own body. And, he has
sections in the book for both beginners and more experienced athletes.

Occams Protocol, as the book refers to it, is really a brilliant principle if
you can just remove yourself from your expertise in this subject for one
minute.

Starting Strength looks great. I started lifting about 15 years ago - my first
read was Arnold's 'Encyclopedia of Body Building'. Either of those books would
take me a few weeks to really absorb. The Four hour body took me about 6 hours
to read, it encouraged me to cut back my workouts from 6 hours per week to 3
hours per week - so far with solid results. That is significant, that is
important to me - that is something that I would like to share with other
people.

btw, I would not take your bet, however, if that challenge was to happen, I
would not bet against Tim Ferriss.

~~~
jacques_chester
> Again, you seem to think the book is about this claim that TF has invented
> some new kind of workout routine. Its not.

OK. Admittedly I am attacking my own impression of a book I don't own (and
don't plan to). Technically I am beating up a strawman, which is always an
uneven fight.

> How do you quantify this minimum amount of work is? The 4 hour body
> prescribes a methodology of continual trial and measurement. That is what
> the book is about.. applying this principle to your goals for your own body.

Thank you for the best point made yet. I think it's great to experiment on
yourself. I keep a log for more or less this purpose. However, it is
problematic to generalise from "this worked awesomely for me" to "this will
work awesomely for everyone _forever_ ", because novice gains dry up fast.

> Starting Strength looks great. I started lifting about 15 years ago - my
> first read was Arnold's 'Encyclopedia of Body Building'. Either of those
> books would take me a few weeks to really absorb

Yeah, I had Arnold's book in high school. Spent hooooours in the gym doing
every variation of shoulder exercise known to man. My only really fond memory
of the book is that it insisted on squatting and by god I did lots of them.
Squats have never let me down.

> The Four hour body took me about 6 hours to read, it encouraged me to cut
> back my workouts from 6 hours per week to 3 hours per week - so far with
> solid results.

I am very pleased it is working for you. I note in passing that Starting
Strength aims for 3 workouts of 45 minutes duration -- less time than you are
spending now.

Edit: a good book to follow _Starting Strength_ is _Practical Programming for
Strength Training_ , by Rippetoe et al.

------
runjake
I lost over 20lbs in January by lazily following Tim's Slow Carb Diet, as
described in the book. I'm currently working on a blog entry about my
experiences and observations.

I anticipate losing another 15-20lbs this next month. I'll report back then,
the next time a 4HB criticism is posted here.

~~~
treblig
I'm doing it as well, and have seen similar results. Not as drastic, but very
impressed. It's all about a lifestyle change for me, just needed a little kick
in the pants. Excited to read your blog post.

------
JacobAldridge
In case you missed the word 'Humour' at the top (I originally did, but I
recognised the parody), this link may help save you from wasting the next 3hrs
54mins planning to mutilate a patient - <http://mixergy.com/timothy-ferriss-
four-hour-body-interview/>

I'm hoping somebody can provide a direct link that demonstrates just how
wonderfully the OP nailed the style of Tim's book!

------
surlyadopter
This is a hilarious take on Tim Ferriss's style.

~~~
aaronblohowiak
I thought this gem was particularly hilarious: "Objectivity is subjective, and
the laws of science are for victims."

------
neworbit
I enjoy Tim's books (and find them somewhere between entertaining and useful
depending on chapter) but I found this darn near keyboard-kill amusing.

"Be careful of reading health books. You might die of amisprint." - Mark Twain

------
Dylanlacey
There is a nugget of value to be taken from TF and every single successfully
sold diet.

People love a system. LOVE A SYSTEM.

Anything that promises to take the work of determining what will lead to
success out of an equation will be wildly popular.

"Always Eat Before 9pm" "Don't Sell on a Monday" "Drink 43.2mL of water per
dollar you earn"

will all, ALWAYS, be more popular then "Eat food. Not too much. Mostly
plants."

Why do we need to know this? Because your startup will be more likely to
succeed if it presents a systematic solution to a problem (OMG OPINION).

------
zacharycohn
After I watched the Mixergy interview a few weeks ago and read snippets of his
books... this is so spot on.

------
c0riander
It's like a written, Tim-Ferriss-ized version of those Old Spice commercials!

 _"Hello, ladies, look at your man, now back to me, now back at your man, now
back to me. Sadly, he isn’t me, but if he stopped using ladies scented body
wash and switched to Old Spice, he could smell like he’s me. Look down, back
up, where are you? You’re on a boat with the man your man could smell like.
What’s in your hand, back at me. I have it, it’s an oyster with two tickets to
that thing you love. Look again, the tickets are now diamonds. Anything is
possible when your man smells like Old Spice and not a lady. I’m on a horse."_

------
kmfrk
Sometimes, there is a fine line between parody and imitation.

------
dlsay
I just choked on an almond. That was hilarious and dead on.

~~~
jordanmessina
One of the two that you're eating for breakfeast after following this guide?
;)

~~~
grk
More like one of the twenty four-hours-before, if he's following 4HB. ;)

------
wallflower
This essay reminds me of the classic College Admissions Essay from Hugh
Gallagher.

    
    
        I woo women with my sensuous and godlike trombone
        playing, I can pilot bicycles up severe inclines with
        unflagging speed, and I cook Thirty-Minute Brownies in
        twenty minutes. I...
    

<http://www-users.cs.york.ac.uk/susan/joke/essay.htm>

------
zdw
Anyone else get the Steve Martin Dentist song from Little Shop of Horrors in
their head while reading this?

<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bOtMizMQ6oM>

------
lanstein
All this talk and not one person has discussed the fifteen-minute O?

------
stcredzero
Scientific Self Help:

[http://lesswrong.com/lw/3nn/scientific_selfhelp_the_state_of...](http://lesswrong.com/lw/3nn/scientific_selfhelp_the_state_of_our_knowledge/)

------
KeyBoardG
Brb... Searching for cod liver oil Syringes on Amazon.

------
Groxx
> _Success comes to those who force reality to bend to their will._

Words of wisdom in any age. Utterly fantastic.

------
trustfundbaby
I bet Tim Ferriss is somewhere laughing at all this ... all the way to the
bank.

