
Thousands take to Hong Kong streets to protest new extradition laws - abc-xyz
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-hongkong-politics-extradition-idUSKCN1S405E
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cirrus-clouds
Vox has an excellent video called 'China is erasing its border with Hong Kong'
which details how the Chinese government is tightening it's control of Hong
Kong. It's well worth a watch. Here's the video description:

" _When Britain handed Hong Kong back to China in 1997, Chinese leaders agreed
that Hong Kong would be able to keep its economic and political systems,
including some of the civil freedoms denied to China’s citizens on the
mainland, for the next 50 years.

Although Hong Kong still has nearly 30 years of semi-autonomy left, China has
started tightening its grip, and many believe it is chipping away at Hong
Kong’s freedoms._"

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MQyxG4vTyZ8](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MQyxG4vTyZ8)

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macspoofing
The only thing keeping Hong Kong's sovereignty (such as it is) is Taiwan.
There is some understanding on the Chinese side that a full annexation of the
territory would strengthen independence hardliners in Taiwan - which is the
real prize because Taiwan is absolutely critical for Chinese national defense.
If it wasn't for that, Hong Kong would have been wholly annexed by now.

~~~
everdev
Why is Taiwan absolutely critical to Chinese defense?

~~~
vaughnegut
Taiwan is an unsinkable aircraft carrier. It provides a massive platform from
which to attack the mainland. Maintaining control denies this advantage to any
attackers.

~~~
taobility
There are so many unsinkable aircraft carriers around China. Taiwan is not the
only one, and also Taiwan island is too far away from USA, the only possible
opponent of China. So once the war is starting, China is very easy to occupy
Taiwan before USA can provide the support.

~~~
pimmen
Taiwan is actually very close to two very important US allies, the Philippines
and Japan. It’s alot harder and more expensive to launch an attack from Luzon
or Okinawa than it is to launch it from Taiwan.

~~~
scottlocklin
It's a hell of a lot closer to China than to Philippines or Japan.

FWIIW it was historically used by forces which threatened Chinese sovereignty,
including Japan. Since Chinese leadership actually reads history instead of
making stuff up as they go along, as Westerners do, that's probably why it's
such a sore spot for them.

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chriselles
I wonder how many activists in Hong Kong have been pinched by Mainland China
Ministry of State Security in recent years?

I’ve read of a few missing persons in Hong Kong suspected of being put in the
bag.

If I had to guess, Xi will not allow opposition and the temperature will be
slowly increased over time in Hong Kong.

I believe extraditions will be allowed to Mainland China, openly legitimising
what has already been done in recent years.

~~~
isaaafc
We don't know how many were taken discreetly (perhaps lesser known people),
but the case that caused much concern was the bookstore owners disappearances
[1].

Owners of a bookstore that sold PRC-censored books were taken to China
secretly, trialed and convicted. One of them was even a Swedish national, but
the CCP insisted he was "Chinese". He released a video "admitting" to his
crimes of drunk driving a few years prior but his name in the records didn't
even match his actual name, i.e. he was obviously forced to admit to a crime
he didn't commit. Another one reappeared in Hong Kong, said he would take his
family to China, praised Chinese living quality, and went back to China.

When the law is passed, the CCP doesn't need to abduct people discreetly
anymore. They would simply order Hong Kong's officials to transfer them. In
short, once this law is passed, no one is safe. Not even foreigners.

[1]:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causeway_Bay_Books_disappearan...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causeway_Bay_Books_disappearances)

~~~
closeparen
China could also use mainland family members as leverage, which might explain
its otherwise-surprising influence over HK citizens outside its official
reach. (Could they _really_ credibly threaten to abduct him a second time,
with the whole world watching?)

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est31
You could wonder: why does the mighty bejing government care about these
little provinces that dabble with democracy? Actually, Hong Kong and Taiwan
are very dangerous to the mainland government. They harbour elites who keep
values of democracy and freedom. Those elites potentially could be put into
power in order to oversee democratization of China. Not saying that they ever
will, but it's certainly a danger for them.

~~~
salty_biscuits
I didn't think Hong Kong was particularly democratic. Free market but doesn't
it have system where the electorate votes for some seats and business
interests vote for others?

~~~
FabHK
Yes, basically (35 seats for "geographical constituencies", ie districts, and
35 seats for "functional constituencies", ie industries and the like).

The opposition used to get enough seats to hold the pro-Beijing camp in check
somewhat (with veto power on constitutional reforms), but after the
(entertaining, but ex post unfortunate) oath-taking controversy [1] in 2016,
six members-elect were disqualified, after Beijing "interpreted" the Basic Law
of Hong Kong to "clarify" it (as it is entitled to do under the Basic Law).

Now the one-thirds minority to block constitutional changes is gone.

EDIT to add: Still, it's much too democratic for China!

[1] Among the antics: legislators held a "Hong Kong is not China" banner,
mispronounced "People's Republic of China" as "people's re-fucking of Chee-na"
(the latter a derogatory term), and spent about ten minutes reading the
80-word oath in extreme slow motion.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hong_Kong_Legislative_Council_...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hong_Kong_Legislative_Council_oath-
taking_controversy)

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M9rDqvSP4AY](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M9rDqvSP4AY)

[https://www.hongkongfp.com/2019/03/11/pledging-allegiance-
be...](https://www.hongkongfp.com/2019/03/11/pledging-allegiance-beijing-
purged-entire-generation-political-talent-legislature/)

~~~
salty_biscuits
Wow, watching the video that is a strong protest! Thanks for the
clarification.

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jimrhods23
Good luck. China owns Hong Kong. Since the mainland gets to decide who runs in
major elections, there is only an illusion of independence.

~~~
JumpCrisscross
> _China owns Hong Kong_

Not yet [1], not technically. Hong Kong, through the UK, has legal redress in
international law which would at least make overt subjugation politically
costly for Beijing.

[1]
[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Handover_of_Hong_Kong](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Handover_of_Hong_Kong)

~~~
Mediterraneo10
> Hong Kong, through the UK, has legal redress in international law

The UK has gradually lost interest in ensuring that Hong Kong’s Basic Law is
respected. For the UK, fighting for Hong Kong would jeopardize its
relationship with the mainland, which is much more important in terms of
business and trade.

Plus, mainland China has become more assertive and its leadership claims that
China is rising back up again after the colonial era kept it down – an era in
which the UK played no small role, both in the Opium Wars and in holding Hong
Kong as a colonial possession. That means that if the UK tries to really fight
for Hong Kong, it will be attacked for acting like a meddling colonial power
again. The UK is just too sensitive to the propaganda campaign that China
could throw at it.

~~~
JumpCrisscross
> _the UK has lost interest in ensuring that Hong Kong’s Basic Law is
> respected_

I agree. When I say through the UK, I mean through the UK’s standing in
international law. That gives Hong Kong the ability to petition various bodies
and sue in certain courts. It also gives legitimacy to _e.g._ the U.S. taking
it on as a cause.

TL; DR There are ways for Hong Kong to make an overt treaty violation costly
to Beijing. Unless Beijing is concerned about an imminent threat to its
legitimacy and power, it’s unlikely to find those costs worth incurring.

~~~
hdkrgr
And when you say 'Hong Kong' can sue, you mean its pro-Beijing government?

~~~
JumpCrisscross
> _when you say 'Hong Kong' can sue, you mean its pro-Beijing government?_

When I sign contracts with a company, I negotiate against the imaginary dick
who replaces the gentleman I know. Agreements outlast their signers. Politics
can change.

~~~
bobthepanda
The head of Hong Kong's government is elected via a council mostly consisting
of business interests with huge incentives to keep the territory's main
trading partner (China) happy. Any change to this would require amending the
Basic Law, which only China is allowed to do. Nothing short of a coup would
change the current situation.

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bayareanative
HK is slowly-but-surely heading towards full Orwellian Chinese rule. The
handover was the beginning of the end, and all promises would be unenforceable
and breached. It doesn't matter about petitionings through some international
bodies, China could care less.

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mensetmanusman
It is hard to imagine what it must be like being a young person in HK.

Growing up with some semblance of individual liberty (small L liberalism) and
then knowing it will be gone in your lifetime. It would have been better to
always be under authoritarian rule... then you wouldn’t know what you were
about to go without.

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product50
Hong Kong should just give up at this point. China is a million times more
powerful and no foreign power is coming to save them.

Also, most major businesses have moved to Singapore as their APAC HQ since the
China handover.

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magnusjonsson
No, Hong Kong should lead the way.

