
California bans ITT tech from accepting new students - emeraldd
http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-itt-tech-aid-20160826-snap-story.html?utm_source=fark&utm_medium=website&utm_content=link&ICID=ref_fark
======
crazy1van
I agree with a lot of the complaints I've heard about ITT. They seem to
broadly fall into three camps:

1) They are expensive and rely on their students getting gov't loans,

2) They don't adequately prepare students for the work place, and

3) The teachers aren't very good.

I think those are all great reasons to not go to ITT. But, I think those
reasons could also apply to a whole lot of other schools, profit, non-profit,
private, and public.

Certainly, I think #1 applies to a whole lot of schools and student #2 applies
to any school that has majors with poor job prospects. And I think nearly
every college student has experienced #3 with at least some of their
professors -- sometimes because they dont know the material well and other
times because they are completely uninterested in the teaching aspect of their
job.

~~~
jmcgough
Yes, these are problems that are present for some other schools, but ITT Tech
is far worse. For-profit schools aren't even in the same ballpark as other
types of schools, in terms of the default rate.

These are businesses where the "admissions counselors" are salespeople who are
told to lie to people and strongarm them into attending, taking out massive
government loans and effectively stealing money from the federal government
when they inevitably default.

"In 2011, 22% of student loan borrowers from ITT Tech defaulted on their
federal student loans. In contrast, the average default rate for 4-year public
institutions was 8.9%. For private student loan borrowers, ITT’s projected
default rate is a whopping 64%. This is primarily because of the high tuition,
low graduation rates, and low job placement."

([http://higherednotdebt.org/blog/time-itt-tech-
go](http://higherednotdebt.org/blog/time-itt-tech-go))

~~~
gremlinsinc
why not allow them to operate instead of force them out--make them pay for all
defaulted loans above 8% -- that might make them work harder to get their
students gainfully employed so they can cover their loans. -- not that I like
ITT, I abhor them, and think that Bootcamps are WAY better in terms of quality
education and quality of job prospects.

~~~
tn13
Yes this.

The problem here is with the government instead of ITT in my opinion. If you
are lending money to someone who is taking significantly more risk it is your
fault if the person fails to pay it back and not of the consumer or the
business selling the service.

In fact it makes sense for the government to do better credit risk analysis
for every college-course-student instead of providing loans for any student,
college course. The private banking industry already has this system and it
makes sense for government to just leverage that.

~~~
euyyn
Well, that's exactly what the Federal government did. "If you want a student
loan, you can't enroll in ITT, as it's too high risk".

~~~
cloakandswagger
That's what the government of the state of California did, not the Federal
government.

~~~
dragonwriter
The federal government banned new students with federal financial aid from
enrolling in any ITT program or campus.

Then, the California state government banned _all_ new student enrollment at
ITT campuses in California.

------
bane
One of the things that's very interesting to me is how information asymmetry
helps drive people to these kinds of companies. I don't know everybody's
story, but when I was just out of high school, there was no chance (I believed
at the time) that I'd be able to go to a traditional school. I had bad grades,
my family was poor and nobody in my family had gone to university except for
my father, who had quickly abandoned his post-University career for more blue
collar work.

Wanting to try to make over minimum wage, I went to an ITT-like trade school
to talk with an "admissions counselor" seeing if they would accept me (of
course they would, for a price). I took a fairly simple "placement exam"
(which of course I passed). I told the counselor I didn't have any money (no
problem!) I was then shown a variety of ultra high-interest loan options which
would guarantee I could get through the "program" (just sign here!). I
remember getting odd, cagey, answers about the accreditation of the trade
school, and couldn't imagine how I'd pay back a loan that large if I took it
on.

I had the presence of mind to "let me think about it" instead of giving in to
the hard pressure sale the guidance counselor was offering, went on to work my
crappy jobs for a couple more years before accidentally running into an old
friend who grew up in a similar situation as me and ended up going the
community college route.

It was "real" college (for some value of "real" and "college"), was a tiny
fraction of the cost of the trade school, and graduation guaranteed placement
in a state school of my choice. _That_ sounded too good to be true, at least
the trade school had some kind of real cost associated with it. But I went and
checked it out, it was all true. A.S.->B.S.->M.S. and now I have a career, no
student debt and choice of great high-paying jobs.

Later, while I was attending community college, a coworker was going to that
same trade school, hemorrhaging money and then one monday came in and told a
story where they had gone out of business, didn't tell anybody, and just
padlocked the doors over the weekend.

Of course he still owed all the money for his loans.

~~~
antisthenes
Community colleges are a hidden treasure in the United States. Many of them
have very good professors, are cheap and have the benefit of having transfer
programs into a big name university for the last 2 years of your 4 year
degree.

I'm not sure why schools like ITT or Phoenix even exist or how they attract
"customers/students".

This may sound arrogant, but for me, an ITT or Phoenix degree is worth less
than the piece of paper it's on. I would actually pay money to have my name
never associated with them on a resume or otherwise. Buying a fake diploma in
a subway might be a better investment.

Having a school like that on your resume is pretty much the best way to signal
to potential employers to never hire you for the kinds of jobs that will let
you move up the financial and social ladder.

~~~
autotune
It's not arrogant at all, as being able to do some basic research is a big
part of any IT field you get into. If you can't be arsed to google for the
reputation and qualifications of a "degree" from a for-profit "school" you're
investing thousands of dollars in, what does that say about the potentially
critical type of purchasing and general infrastructure decisions you'll be
making on the job?

------
headmelted
Reading the comments here has been really eye opening to me.

I always knew that tuition was orders-of-magnitude more expensive across the
Atlantic but now it's a bit clearer why.

Here (Northern Ireland, but it applies to the UK as a whole), students don't
start to repay their loans until their earnings are over a certain threshold,
then repayments are proportional to how much they earn over that level. If
their annual earnings ever fall below it again, payments stop until they're
back on their feet.

I can't remember exactly what my interest rate was but I know it was fixed
BELOW the central bank rate at the time.

Standard financial advice here is to max the loan out even if you weren't in
need of it and just put it in a savings account for the interest (probably not
worth it these days).

Lastly, if the loans aren't fully repaid by retirement age, they're written
off.

So yeah, you folks are really getting screwed over there.

~~~
djsumdog
New Zealand use to have free education. Then it became interest free ...
unless you left the country. They bleed a lot of talent out to Australia, so
if you move for more than 6 months they start charging you interest.

It turned from being a good socialist system that helped everyone to being a
forced means of talent retention.

In the same way, American student loans are really aimed at keeping people
trapped in industry they might grow to hate. Everyone has to pay the mortgage
and all that.

~~~
elemenopy
I think "forced means of talent retention" is an unfairly harsh
characterisation. It's a pretty reasonable policy considering taxpayers have
to service the debt, and people who go overseas stop paying tax. It's all very
well to propose a "good socialist system" but if people pay domestic fees and
then leave NZ they're essentially getting a free ride and it's the people who
don't go to uni who end up paying for it.

------
rdtsc
Are there any good ITT / University of Phoenix type schools? They all seem
like scams.

I don't count community colleges here, I know those can be very good. My wife
went to one, got great education, was able to pay it by just budgeting money
every month out of her part time work. Then switched to a 4 years univeristy,
transfered credits and graduated with honors after 2 more years (with minimal
loans).

Would it be hard for any of these for-profit school to also do a good job?

~~~
buddylw
The quality of education varies between institutions. I graduated from DeVry a
little over 10 years ago. I got a decent education (ABET accredited B.S.
Computer Engineering Technology) and was able to put myself through school and
get a good job. I could have done it a little cheaper in a state school and a
lot cheaper with a community college, but for what it was I don't really have
any regrets.

My only critique is that they accept ANYONE. This leads to a large number of
dropouts. You have people that haven't been able to grasp basic algebra and
they bust their butts learning basic math and then hit Cal I, Cal II, Signal
Processing, etc and they just can't hack it. By the time they flunk out
they've wracked up tens of thousands in student loan debt.

We lost something like 60-80% of the students we started with in the first 2
years.

That seems immoral on the face of it to take advantage of those people, but at
the same time this happens (albeit to a much lesser degree) in all schools,
and I was grateful for the opportunity DeVry extended to me as a student with
terrible grades in highschool.

~~~
Digory
One attorney I know pursued several claims against scam schools a few years
ago.

Of the schools he had investigated, he said DeVry was unusual because it was
trying to operate like a real educational institution.

Federal loan money has distorted for-profit and non-profit institutions. But
it's depressingly uncommon to find for-profit trade "schools" that actually
care about educating students.

~~~
rdtsc
Interesting. Other comments imply that too. It would seem like actually trying
to teach students something might be good for long term survival. Being around
longer means make more profits for investors, go figure...

------
jorts
At my last company we had a slew of ITT graduates apply for a role one time. I
talked to probably 10 or so of them. They seemed to have received little to no
educational value from their time at ITT. I assume they were all promised
great jobs, but all of them were not remotely qualified to get even a basic
entry level technical role. I felt terrible for them paying money for the
"education" that they received.

~~~
increment_i
I'd be interested to hear what you would expect as bare minimums for a "basic
entry level technical role." I've heard of recruiters being dumbfounded at CS
grads not being able to code FizzBuzz and to be honest I can't believe it.

~~~
iamdave
Let me flip that around and offer that I've had "technical" recruiters fail
their end of this transaction as well.

One experience involved a recruiter who wanted a compete rewrite of a CV
portion outlining a SQL project from planning to continuous implementation
models I built.

This on top of 8 years of other experience in data design and management.

The recruiter wanted to pass on my resume because I had failed to indicate my
experience with flat CSV files and thought I needed more experience with them
as a "highly specialized software stack".

I decided not to pursue that company further, maybe it was ego getting in the
way but insisting I rewrite a technical resume covering 10 years of database
experience over the omission of operating with flat files seemed like refusing
to hire a qualified electrical engineer because he didn't list AA Batteries on
his resume.

~~~
splicer
> refusing to hire a qualified electrical engineer because he didn't list AA
> Batteries on his resume

LOL! It won't be long before the majority of EEs under 25 won't even know what
an AA battery is. In fact, I bet it would be pretty hard today to find someone
in their 20s who knows what a 9-volt is.

~~~
JackFr
Let alone experience licking one.

~~~
wvrvwwwe
Haha! I'm 28, and my dad and I bonded over, among other things, licking a
9-volt battery.

------
electic
What about coding bootcamps? Aren't they worse? They try to make you a "coder"
in a couple of months and promise people jobs if they finish the course. It
sounds eerily the same thing as ITT...

~~~
jmcgough
Depends a lot on the bootcamp, and how motivated the person participant is.
Some of my coworkers are bootcamp graduates and all are fantastic.

I met someone when I was at college who went to ITT and said that he paid $30k
and learned nothing from unqualified instructors, he felt (and clearly was)
scammed.

~~~
PhasmaFelis
I mean, that was also my experience with my degree from a major university.

I told them I wanted to be a computer programmer, they said "Oh, you want a
Computer Science major, then." I didn't realize until after graduating that
I'd learned about electrical engineering and processor architecture and
compiler design and lots and lots of math, but almost no actual, y'know,
computer programming. Pretty much had to start from scratch to make an actual
career.

~~~
sanderjd
But...if you learn all that stuff, isn't programming pretty easy? It's just
specific abstractions on top of the fundamentals you already know... (I don't
mean to be dismissive, I'm honestly mystified by your perspective here.)

~~~
Ologn
I talked to a number of seniors majoring in computer science at a decent
college not long ago - none of them knew what software version control was.

While, or right after, taking these theoretical courses in Java or graphics or
whatnot, I would launch a project in that area to ground all that theory in
something I could then manifest. I don't think this occurred to many of them,
but to be fair, they are young and have been in school all their lives, and I
went to class with a lot of (mostly non-programming) experience in the IT
business already under my belt.

~~~
timdev2
> none of them knew what software version control was.

I was pretty intimately familiar with CVS by the time I graduated (very late
in the 90s). But now that I think about it, it was probably introduced in an
"Intro to C and Unix" which was a 1-credit class one of the faculty forced as
a pre-req for certain higher-level courses like those on compilers. It was a
crash-course on C (for students who had mainly used Pascal in their first year
or two), Unix philosophy, and some associated tools (make, cvs, vi/emacs).

It only met the first third of the semester, so it could be taken concurrently
with the class the required it. I wonder if other schools do something
similar. It worked quite well, since by the the time you got up to speed, it
was time to start building lexers in the compilers course.

------
imh
I think this is a fantastic step in the right direction, but what is the legal
justification here? ITT is in no way alone in being evil and predatory, so I'm
surprised I keep hearing about crackdowns for them but not for anyone else.
I'd love to see some new rules to keep _all_ of these predatory places from
operating instead of what kinda seems like a picking out a scapegoat. (Or is
all this recent news more general and everyone just mentions ITT?)

~~~
Kadin
California would probably _like_ to ban all of the for-profits, but can't.
ITT, however, stepped so far beyond the pale that it gave regulators an
opportunity to punish them.

California is basing its move on a US Department of Education decision, which
itself was based on a history of previous litigation, which _started_ because
of concerns over ITT's accreditation. Basically: no accreditation, no loans,
which given ITT's business model would basically put them out of business. And
if a school's accreditation is threatened in some way, the Fed can step in and
require the school to post a bond, so that the USG isn't left footing the bill
(students are already protected by law).

This, from what I can tell, is what happened to ITT: their accreditation was
looking sketchy, so the Feds started to get concerned, and required them to
post progressively larger bonds to protect the government against a closure,
and also cut off new Federally-funded students from starting. This may or may
not be enough to kill them as a company. CA is using this concern over future
viability, combined with what appear to be some pretty strong consumer-
protection laws, to prevent them from registering new students _at all_ in CA.
(I'm somewhat surprised they can do this, if you were just going to pay cash-
on-the-barrel-head and not get anyone else's money involved, but they must
have some particularly stringent laws about higher ed in CA. Probably not a
bad idea all in all.)

It's been speculated that what the US DOE is doing is a rare example of the
administrative "corporate death penalty" in action; that the moves are
designed not just for the immediate regulatory ends, but actually to kill ITT.
_Pour encourager les autres_ , as the saying goes. Of course they can't come
right out and _say_ that, but it would fit with some of the evidence.

And personally, I'm ready to throw some rotten vegetables as they're climbing
the scaffold to the noose.

~~~
r00fus
To keep with the analogy, do you think the _Robespierre_ will arrive to usher
out the age of neofuedalism?

~~~
coredog64
Minor nit: It was an English admiral that was killed to encourage the others.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Minorca_(1756)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Minorca_\(1756\))

------
gdwatson
Does anyone have references to more specific accusations against ITT? There
are lots of vague claims in the article, but the only semi-specific ones --
misleading students about program quality and pushing them into irresponsible
loans -- could just as easily be laid at the feet of public and private
nonprofit colleges.

I have no particular reason to trust or distrust ITT. But it strikes me as a
trade school that presents itself as a college, and that seems like one viable
approach to our credentialism issues, so I want to know if it's being attacked
for legitimate or political reasons.

~~~
imh
The gist is that they let anyone in (and advertise heavily to try to let
_everyone_ in), regardless of their ability. They also charge exorbitant
amounts that students can only pay because of their government loans. That
might sound a little like the general complaints about college, except that
they don't really offer anything in the way of actual education, and the costs
are really high, even for U.S. colleges.

So what ends up happening is the government pays the school and the students
lucky enough to graduate end up with massive debt, no useful skills, and a
degree that actually counts against them on the job market as employers think,
"They were dumb enough to fall for that scam?" Other students who leave part
way through are often surprised to learn that none of their credits are
transferable to a real college because other schools know how bad these are.

~~~
Jach
Do they really provide nothing resembling education? I once had a friend of a
friend ask me for some CSS help for some assignment, later I found out it was
for some University of Phoenix course. Ideally the instructor would have
taught the principles of CSS so that my assistance wasn't needed, but
instructors not teaching the fundamentals and letting students figure it out
somehow (or muddling through without ever learning) is par for the course at
most colleges. Presumably these schools have lectures, assignments, projects?
What explains the gap seen by companies on the other side apart from letting
students graduate without actually having learned anything? And does this
really only apply to these sorts of private schools?

~~~
ryuker16
Class quality varies greatly by program but they are notorious for recruiting
people who can barely read or will pass since the real goal is aquiring their
hefty federal student loan allowance.

So either classes are dumbed down so they can eventually graduate or fail many
leaving them with a gigantic loan amount(most schools try to max this out) and
no education cert.

Also, they tend to pay fairly low for teacher faculty while having little
prestige or oversight: quality is unlikely in this environment.

However they have top notch recruiting and sale teams.

------
rayiner
Not a bad thing, but I feel like many public institutions at the bottom end of
the scale aren't much better, just a little cheaper. There is a whole rung of
public 4-year universities where the modal outcome is working a job that
doesn't require the degree you paid a lot of money for.

------
WhitneyLand
Btw to avoid confusion I've seen happen when a new guy shows up in the
workplace: ITT != IIT

ITT = ~University of Phoenix, everyone gets in

IIT = Elite programs in a variety of sciences, almost no one gets in

~~~
SapphireSun
To clarify, IIT is the Indian Institute of Technology, a series of schools
that are basically India's MIT as I've had it described to me by people that
went there. I had some graduate friends from there while I was in undergrad
and they were very bright.

------
ghshephard
"Last year, it enrolled 45,000 students and reported $850 million in revenue".
That's about $19k/year/student. Just to put that in perspective, a 10 day
Cisco Network Engineering course from Unitek in the Bay area (last time I took
one, great school, at least in network engineering) costs $8,200. The issue
isn't the cost, honestly, $19k/year isn't that expensive, the issue is whether
they are delivering value for money.

~~~
ryuker16
Those courses are paid by your company as training or to accqure some cert to
obtain a contract.....its not priced accurately nor intended for guys on the
street.

~~~
ghshephard
Not sure what you mean when you say, "Not priced accurately" \- I looked
around, and pretty much all the schools charge around the same price, if you
want to be sitting in a lab with other students for 10 hours a day for 10 days
with a best-of-class instructor. Lots of room for competition if someone
thinks they can do it more cheaply, but the instructors are very expensive
(they are the best in the business - and if you aren't happy with them, you
walk out and demand a full refund at that kind of price). We definitely had
students in the room who had paid out of their own pocket for the course. I've
taken these courses both through work, and independently, paying myself.

I would much rather give someone $8500 and 10 days later come out with some
highly relevant, actionable knowledge then spend a year (or two!) of my time
getting some "credential" \- there is a pretty big opportunity cost to my
time.

~~~
ghshephard
Also - put another way, not even including the cost of facilities, and
equipment - I'm paying $8500 for 100 hours of instructor time. $85/hr
(admittedly shared with a small group of other students) of a world class
education, where every single second is optimized.

Seems reasonable to me.

------
joshmn
Are they preying on desperate students, or people who are considered
"unfavorable" to learning otherwise?

I know a few people who considered ITT. They all have one thing alike: they're
not the smartest or most driven of people by any means. (that's two, sorry)

I'm curious... What are their student's standardized test scores, as well as
high school records? I'm sure there's a pattern there that can describe some
their default rates.

~~~
ben_jones
Companies like ITT specifically target military service members because they
are:

1) In their twenties and looking to start a career outside the military.

2) Eligible for a variety of loans, grants, and other financial services
unavailable to the general public.

3) If they are still in the military, they will have much lower default rates
as the military takes debt very seriously (as a representation of character
really).

(IMO) none of these qualities are unfavorable to traditional institutions.
Companies like ITT are 100% vultures.

source: many friends in the military

~~~
jcurbo
All true. The Post-9/11 GI Bill was a large driver of this - if you've done
your time, it's basically free schooling and all you have to do is sign up.
The govt sends the tuition money directly to the school, you just have to
recertify with the VA every semester. (In the old GI Bill you got the money
first, and the rates were different)

(source: prior military, used Post-9/11 GI Bill to get my master's)

------
WhatIsThisIm12
As someone who graduated from an Ivy Leage school, and boarding school before
that, all on full financial aid with _zero_ loans, I count myself incredibly
lucky. I also see the student loan system as incredibly fucked up.

The worst aspect of it to me is that the most predatory loans go to the lowest
qualified students, who are the ones who get the lower paying jobs. Top
universities are the only ones with loan-free, need-blind financial aid
programs. Yet they're the ones with students who would be most qualified to
pay any loans back. Meanwhile lower tier universities charge tuitions almost
as large as the top tier ones, yet send students to $40k/yr jobs.

The students who need the money most don't get it.

~~~
ryuker16
Actually these students qualify for a large amount of federal student loans
due to poverty.

Private student loan vendors are would never lend to these for-profit students
with out collateral or a well off co-signer.

------
nsxwolf
Why _can 't_ there be such thing as a good for-profit school? We buy the
highest quality smartphones from Apple and Samsung after all - I don't see a
lot of non-profit phones or government phones.

~~~
dragonwriter
Phones tend to be a repeated purchase that people are quickly able to assess
costs and benefits of and optimize. It thus more closely approximates the
rational choice model under which free markets are efficient.

------
h4nkoslo
One aspect of ITT and its ilk is that the students often only sign up so they
can take out "education" loans for living expenses, with the class work as a
very secondary concern.

~~~
Blackthorn
You're gonna need to provide a citation for such a serious claim.

~~~
h4nkoslo
It's hardly a secret that student loans, intentionally, cover living expenses,
and that enrolment rises when the economy sucks. Students aren't embezzling
the money; living expenses are bundled with the (crappy) package.

[http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB100014240527023045850045794150...](http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424052702304585004579415022664472930)

------
ne01
I don't like our current educational system and really hate for-profit schools
like ITT, so I'm kind of happy to see them fail.

Unless you really add value to the learning process, it is ugly to charge
someone to teach them something they can easily learn on their own and most of
the time ruin their curiosity!

In the future more people will learn on their own and just take a free test to
get a certificate! Oh and books will be free (or very cheap) with government
subsidies.

------
serg_chernata
Does anyone know which other national institutions something like this may
affect?

~~~
finid
Virtually all of them. Their main interest is the Federal student loan
program. Vets are a special target.

> The emergency order, which takes effect Sept. 1, comes one day after the
> U.S. Department of Education banned ITT from enrolling new students who use
> federal financial aid.

------
tomohawk
Maybe they should have done what Laureate did.

[http://money.cnn.com/2016/08/23/news/clinton-laureate-
univer...](http://money.cnn.com/2016/08/23/news/clinton-laureate-
university/index.html)

------
pkaye
This caption pretty much captures what is wrong with ITT tech.

"Jorge Villalba, shown in 2015 in front of the ITT Technical Institute in
Encinco, left the school owing about $150,000 in student loans."

How the heck does someone end up owing $150K for a basic education?

------
yamike
I went to ITT Tech and had mixed experiences in different classes. All in all
it would have been cheaper and much better for me to have attended the state
university and gotten a BS rather than the two years at ITT for an associates
degree.

In terms of the classes, I had some taught by really great instructors, local
professionals who were great about teaching skills that companies would
actually care about. I also had some totally worthless instructors. In one
instance I ended up standing up in front of the class and teaching everyone -
instructor included - what polymorphism is.

------
roymurdock
For those interested you can find reactions from students, teachers, trolls,
and the peanut gallery here:

[https://www.thelayoff.com/itt-educational-
services](https://www.thelayoff.com/itt-educational-services)

On the front page of the website you'll notice that Education Management Corp,
University of Phoenix, Corinthian, Zenith Education, etc. are receiving an
increased amount of attention.

------
wallace_f
This is just the tip of the iceberg with problems in education, though. Let's
not act like higher education in the US is exemplary.

------
grej
ITT seems like an easy first place to go because of their shady rep, but I
think the risk here is that well entrenched interests in will ultimately give
bootcamps and other online training courses the same treatment if they start
eating into the educational establishment's pie too much. We have to be
careful of a slippery slope.

~~~
ryuker16
Too late, some of the bigger chains have been bought out.

------
yuhong
Just "ordered to engrossing and enrolling":
[http://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billStatusClient.xht...](http://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billStatusClient.xhtml?bill_id=201520160SB1192)

~~~
zerocrates
An "enrolled" bill is one that has been passed.

------
twblalock
I hope DeVry is next.

~~~
bbarn
I don't know if they're as deserving of the vitriol. I've interviewed and
worked with several people with DeVry degrees. I can't say if it's sample size
or just good luck or both but I haven't been disappointed with them.

------
beenfired
According to the ITT Tech Website they have now stopped accepting new
enrollments nationwide.

------
SFJulie
Education is a small tulip: try to compensate unfairness of life by
subsidizing a flower to wed, an housing, health or education ... and here
comes the bubbles fueled by the greed of a few who have had the luck of being
born lucky.

In the case of tulip, it has still not be proven that wedding a girl that had
an obsession for a foreign expensive flower was a good idea. And for coding
neither the diploma, nor the idea of ruining yourself before either beginning
to work has proven to be useful.

Overvalued diploma are a scam. Education is partly made of a financial bubble
that takes its non-productive toll on economy. I hope Europa will begin to
fire its teachers in public shcools and stop the privatization of education
alike. I hate to fuel bubble with my taxes like a Dutch in the XVIIIth
century.

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electriclove
Bravo, now let's ban the rest of the fake schools!

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known
I believe many ITT students are from India.

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praneshp
I doubt it. Even if we wanted to waste our money there, the chances of getting
a F1 visa is slim to none. Maybe there are Indians attending these schools
illegally but pretty sure it's not large enough for anyone to notice. Do you
have a source?

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ryuker16
There is a con where guys looking for a usa visa get accepted at a school with
no classes. i wouldnt be surprised if some for-profits did this on the side
for extra cash.

Also, some foreigners just dont know any better and get conned.

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beedogs
Great. _Now_ how will I learn TV/VCR repair?

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trengrj
This site is absolutely unusable without an ad blocker..

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finid
Well, I read the article and don't have an ad blocker. People tend to take
this complaint about ads way too far.

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cloudjacker
wow thats horrible news for all those motivated people that "were the first in
their family to go to college"

