

BitTorrent Chat: The Want For Privacy - eroo
http://blog.bittorrent.com/2014/06/11/bittorrent-chat-the-want-for-privacy/

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chewxy
FWIW, I wrote my own version of it not knowing about BitTorrent chat:
[https://github.com/chewxy/nanjingtaxi/](https://github.com/chewxy/nanjingtaxi/)

It doesn't use the BitTorrent kademlia though. If anyone thinks that should be
the case, feel free to send a pull request

~~~
vxNsr
Is there Windows support in the works, or is this more of a weekend project?

I would offer to help but I don't know go at all.

~~~
chewxy
Yup. Eventually. The first things I'm planning to add is some NAT and greater
internet traversal stuff. Then using
[https://github.com/andlabs/ui](https://github.com/andlabs/ui) I might want to
add a UI.

Unfortunately my life schedule is kinda... complicated right now, so progress
will be extremely slow

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zimbatm
Is this going to be open source ? Unless the code is verifiable by third
parties and we have reproducible builds then trust is just transferred to
Bittorrent Inc.

~~~
x1798DE
It's possible that BitTorrent's business model is going to change, but with
the original BitTorrent, they kept the client closed source but the _protocol_
was open, allowing for a wider variety of BitTorrent clients. It seems quite
possible that they'll do the same thing for BitTorrent Chat (if not for
BitTorrent sync as well), at which point an open-source client will likely be
created that's compatible with the original.

Either way, even if it were open source, it's _new_ software, not stable
software. Chances are almost any new software is going to be fairly leaky and
buggy for some time. At the moment, I would personally trust BitTorrent chat
somewhat more than Google, Microsoft, etc. to not deliberately put back-doors
in their clients (not to mention it's not like those companies are claiming
their stuff is end-to-end encrypted anyway, as far as I know), and I'd trust
them to write higher-quality software with fewer severe exploits than many of
the nascent open-source alternatives out there at the moment. That said, in a
few years, I fully expect to be using something open-source for this sort of
thing, whether it's Tox or TorChat or an alternative BT Chat client, and for
the moment I don't plan on using _any_ of the current "private chat" programs
for anything important.

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navyrain
Until there is open source and deterministic builds, this is just as
functionally "secure" as Skype.

~~~
vxNsr
Well here's the thing though, skype isn't p2p anymore, they've switched to a
sever based model, is in that sense this is slightly more secure in that only
those involved in the conversation have access to it.

~~~
shmerl
Skype was never purely P2P anyway.

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nvk
Is it going to be fully Open Source or the same joke as Bitorrent Sync where
no peer review is possible?

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unicornporn
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TorChat](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TorChat)
is open-source... Not a tough choice for me.

~~~
synchronise
That doesn't seem to have had much activity lately. Personally I use Torsion
[https://github.com/special/torsion/](https://github.com/special/torsion/)

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ProfOak_
I think there should be mention of Tox as an open source chat alternative. I'm
really excited for it!

[http://tox.im/](http://tox.im/)

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drdaeman
There's no technical info in the article. This one (link from the article)
seems to be more resourceful on details:
[http://engineering.bittorrent.com/2013/12/19/update-on-
bitto...](http://engineering.bittorrent.com/2013/12/19/update-on-bittorrent-
chat/)

The interesting part is their claim they somehow made DHT public key to IP
discovery (mapping) "encrypted" and "secure". Sadly, I hadn't found any
further details.

~~~
AnthonyMouse
Using a public key to authenticate an IP address is trivial. You just sign the
address (and a timestamp for how long it's valid) with the private key.

Making it private is the interesting bit. Obviously you can't have privacy in
the sense that someone who knows your public key can't use it to discover your
IP address, because doing that is the DHT's _purpose_. So what they're
probably talking about is that somebody observing the DHT can't use it to
learn public keys, IP addresses or both. But it would be nontrivial to do that
in a way that isn't useless (e.g. storing under public key fingerprint instead
of public key: now you don't have my public key, and having fingerprint is
_totally_ different, right?)

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stasiek
Why talk about it again? We're waiting like... 8 months since they've opened
the Alpha Signup? =.=

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doctorKrieger
if you want privacy you can simply encrypt your gtalk chat with gpg, another
unecessary overhyped feature.

~~~
ffadaie
Disclosure: I am working on Bittorrent Chat.

There are a few issues with using GPG over gtalk, gmail, mail, etc:

1- The metadata still exists. If you use gpg with any email server, the
provider of that service knows that YOU contacted someone (and they know who
that someone is). They also know "when" this happened. In fact, if metadata is
not a concern, there are other much simpler solutions than using GPG.
Technically speaking iMessage (or many other messaging apps) should give you
the same result (well, if you trust Apple to be doing what they claim to be
doing). With Bittorrent Chat, there is none of that. Bittorrent Inc. does not
know who is talking to whom at what time.

2- It's difficult to use GPG (or OTR, etc) with your friends who are not
technical or just don't want to spend that much time on sending a message.
Honestly, I have rarely used it myself because it's just too difficult to get
right both on the sending end and the receiving end. A messaging app that
intends to be private is not doing a good job if everyone doesn't like it (or
don't know how to use it). Privacy should be accessible otherwise people who
need it the most, cannot use it.

We are trying to create an app that is not only private but is in fact easier
to use than other messaging apps. It has cool features (for technical users as
well as non-techies) that everyone understands and can use. People should not
have a "private messaging app" that they use for their "private" conversation
and one that they use with their "normal conversations". Basically if you
cannot say it on Twitter, it's private [to some extent]. Technical people
should love it and use it with their non-technical friends and non-technical
people should love it because it's just easier to use than other apps (and
provides cool features that no other app is).

~~~
doctorKrieger
@1 Is the connection in Bittorrent Chat working the same way as in tor? And
are you randomizing payload size + providing some kind of delivery delay? If
not you are still susceptible to attacks. As for the configuration part, it's
relatively easy to install appropriate plugin in ekg or pidgin.

~~~
ffadaie
Bittorrent Chat works differently from Tor. The protocol is not yet finalized
but we'll make sure to have external security experts review it to ensure that
we deliver on our promise.

Getting to how-easy or how-difficult the installation is, is an endless
discussion and is very subjective. One thing that I should add though is that
something that might be super easy for you might not be as easy for 99% of
Internet users (which is bad for a messaging app specially since you are
likely to have friends whom you want to talk to in the 99% category).
Installing/configuring a GPG plugin is likely to be one of those.

~~~
doctorKrieger
You haven't answered my question, i was asking whether you've removed all the
possible information leak cases or not.

Yes the message timing , payload size and ip you're connecting to is leaking
some information aswell and can be monitored e.g on a ISP level.

