
The Secret to Ribs Is Already in the Kitchen: The Oven (2010) - Tomte
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/30/dining/30curious.html
======
jacobkg
My wife made ribs in the oven using a similar technique a few weeks ago. They
were delicious! This was the recipe she followed:
[https://smittenkitchen.com/2015/06/oven-ribs-even-
better/](https://smittenkitchen.com/2015/06/oven-ribs-even-better/)

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chomp
Ribs are very forgiving in the smoker. I stick to the 3 2 1 method (3 hours
low and slow smoke, 2 hours wrapped in foil, and 1 hour back on unwrapped) and
they always come out perfect.

~~~
mcdoh
I'm a big fan of 3-2-1 as well. What temperature do you aim for? 225F?

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strictnein
The oven is the secret to bacon too. Without a rack[0] or with one[1], it's
super simple.

[0] [http://www.thekitchn.com/how-to-cook-perfect-bacon-in-the-
ov...](http://www.thekitchn.com/how-to-cook-perfect-bacon-in-the-oven-cooking-
lessons-from-the-kitchn-107970)

[1]
[http://www.theyummylife.com/how_to_bake_bacon](http://www.theyummylife.com/how_to_bake_bacon)

~~~
chongli
I tried doing this once. I did not like having bacon grease spattered all over
my oven. I use my broiler a lot so bacon grease on the ceiling of the oven
results in a lot of smoke every time I broil.

~~~
oomkiller
You might try buying higher quality bacon that doesn't have sodium phosphate
or other "pump-up" fluids added. I prefer Kiolbassa brand, as it's truly a
different product than most bacon you buy in the store. I believe it is a
regional product though, so you may not be able to get any.

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exabrial
Man.... ya'll need to move to Kansas City

> I season the meat simply. True, it can be fun to concoct rubs and mopping
> liquids and sauces with dozens of ingredients, but the end result is usually
> an indistinct, generically fruity and spicy flavor.

/me grabs my pitchfork

~~~
tptacek
I've spent time in Memphis, Lockhart TX, and Kansas City, and found KC to have
the least distinguished barbecue. You really can't get Lockhart anywhere but
in Texas or in rare specialty places. But you can get something about as good
as KC most places.

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linsomniac
The oven is a critical component of my ribs and tri tip. My method usually
makes people go WTF, but that part of it was passed on to me from a
championship rib guy.

Give them a good rub.

I put it in my grill (a Kamado style), with chips (usually apple) right on the
coals, and the upper vent closed almost all the way, and the lower open maybe
10%. As low as it will go and keep the chips smoking, I shoot for 250 but temp
control is imprecise here. 30 minutes of smoke.

Wrap the ribs thoroughly in plastic wrap. Yes plastic wrap. Then wrap them in
foil. The put them in the oven at 225 for 1-2 hours. If they sit for more than
half an hour after, wrap it in a towel or two to keep them warm. Or put them
in a cooler with no ice, again to keep warm.

~~~
theWatcher37
You wrap hot food in an oven in plastic?!

~~~
evilduck
The double wrap, once in plastic and then again in foil probably makes it
work. Same as you can boil water in a plastic cup over an open fire. As long
and the ribs are sufficiently moist, the steam will keep the plastic below
melting temps and foil will reflect a lot of infrared. They make microwave
steamer bags out of plastic, and even pre-made pork chop oven bags. Modern
plastic wrap is also supposedly free of all the leachable nasty phthalates and
stuff of yesteryear. I can see it working out.

That said, I don’t understand why double wrapping ribs would be any more
effective than well crimped foil wrapping.

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kemiller2002
He's not wrong. If you don't have the appropriate equipment you can bake ribs
in the oven. This is no secret, restaurants who aren't bbq places have been
doing this for years. That being said, the secret to ribs is to have the
appropriate equipment. That's why real bbq places have smokers instead of
using gas ovens. A gas oven can impart an off flavor and smokers give smoke to
the meat.

Also among some, wrapping ribs to get them to cook is considered bad form.
They can come out soggy, and the meat can end up being mushy and fall apart
too easily. It really depends on what you are trying to accomplish though. If
you don't mind that, then it can be the way to go.

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drewcon
Wrapping ribs in foil is essentially boiling them in their own steam. Mushy
and bland unless you're a pro.

The oven is fine, but if you want speed and smoke taste, brine and cook at 300
degrees on a grill for about an hour. Best of both worlds.

~~~
tptacek
Wrapping in foil, in the oven or on the smoker, is one of the oldest tricks in
barbecue:

[http://amazingribs.com/tips_and_technique/texas_crutch.html](http://amazingribs.com/tips_and_technique/texas_crutch.html)

The "you're a pro" part of this basically comes down to: you have to wrap your
product tightly and with no gaps (else you still have the evaporative cooling
that is the reason for the crutch in the first place), and you have to remove
the foil midway through cooking.

I don't see how you can get tender ribs in 60 minutes at 300f. Tenderness is a
function of collagen conversion, and that just doesn't happen that quickly,
especially in dry air cooking.

~~~
dekhn
Tenderness is a complicated beast. It's not just collegn conversion. Brining
causes a big change in the molecular structure of the meat that retains a lot
more moisture compared to cooking un-brined meat. That doesn't do anything for
connective tissue, except you can crank the cooking heat higher to melt the
fat, which lubricates the meat further, and then just cut the remaining tissue
away, rather than breaking it down. It's a tradeoff- it doesn't taste as good,
but it's got pretty good texture.

~~~
tptacek
I don't think you're not really "melting the fat". Fat by itself melts almost
immediately. What you're really doing is breaking down the connective tissue
binding the fat, which takes time.

Brining _does_ cause the meat to retain more liquid and that _does_ increase
juiciness, but it can also harm texture and flavor.

------
tptacek
Additionally, meat doesn't absorb much additional smoke flavor after a few
(most say 3) hours in a smoker, so the advantage to keeping them outside ---
apart from simplicity, I guess --- is minimal.

~~~
kemiller2002
It's not hours. It's temperature. After meat reaches, if I recall, 145
degrees, it won't absorb any more smoke flavor. Also the smoke flavor will
become more intense the longer you wait to eat it. So if you smoke something
and then let it sit overnight it will become more intense the next day.

~~~
dawnerd
Can confirm, Smoked ribs this weekend and the leftovers (and the smell of the
entire house for that matter) was intense and delicious.

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oomkiller
My apartment-life rib making method is to sous vide for 48 hours in a custom
dry rub and liquid smoke, then finishing in the oven to caramelize the sugars
and proteins. To someone who doesn't like super smoky barbecue, it's close to
perfect and nearly indistinguishable from the real thing. The best part is
it's so quick to get started and clean up. It's much more trouble to fix
proper sides. They're so inexpensive, too.

~~~
mistermann
Any chance you'd share your recipe (ingredients & instructions)?

~~~
jerkstate
Not OP, but here's my sous vide baby back ribs recipe. They are always a huge
hit, they are extremely meaty and tender.

First make sure to remove the mebrane from the inside of the ribs. You can't
do it with frozen ribs so thaw them in the fridge for a couple days if they
are frozen.

Make a dry rub with a generous portion of chili powders (I use ancho,
chipotle, and sweet paprika, whatever I have around) brown sugar, garlic and
onion powders, salt and pepper, and maybe some cumin, cocoa powder, cinnamon,
nutmeg, whatever you feel like. I hate to be so vague about this but I usually
eyeball - maybe 6 or 8 tbsp of combined chili powder, about the same brown
sugar, 1-2 tbsp of onion and garlic powders, 1 tsp of salt/pepper and less of
the other flavorings, for 4 racks of ribs. Make plenty of rub and really coat
'em good.

Before you seal the vacuum bags put half a teaspoon or so of liquid smoke in
with each rack of ribs

Sous vide for 36 hours at 145 degrees F, turning the bags every 6-12 hours to
evenly distribute the juices.

Open the bags (you can save the juice to make a spicy bbq gravy or spread on
toast if you want, but there will be a LOT of it) - I usually cut the ribs in
half either at the beginning or now, because otherwise they will fall apart.
They are very tender at this point.

Grill them at a relatively low temperature while carefully flipping and
coating both sides a few times with barbecue sauce, allowing the sauce to
carmelize.

Slice into individual ribs, serve with lots of napkins.

This is a great guide to consult on sous vide ribs of various temps/textures:
[http://www.seriouseats.com/2015/09/the-food-lab-complete-
gui...](http://www.seriouseats.com/2015/09/the-food-lab-complete-guide-sous-
vide-pork-ribs.html)

~~~
mistermann
Thank you!

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ijidak
I find that even on a small grill, you can simply pile the ribs on top of each
other on the far side, away from the coals. I think it results in better
flavor as the juice from the ribs on top bastes the ribs beneath. But you do
want to rotate which ribs are at the bottom, if your temps are running a
little high at the bottom.

So, I disagree about being completely limited by surface area for larger
parties. I feel volume of the grill is more important.

~~~
jobu
My preference is to sear the ribs on a _very_ hot charcoal grill for 3-5
minutes a side, then wrap them in tinfoil and bake for several hours at a low
temp. They get the great smokey flavor, but stay moist and tender. Also,
slather them with Stubbs Original BBQ sauce before wrapping and putting in the
oven.

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bane
Another secret? Toss some ribs, a few veggies and seasoning and a bit of beer
into your regular every day rice cooker. Set it, come back when it's done and
enjoy fall off the bone ribs and sides (the veggies).

My wife also does an oven rib recipe in a Sriracha and Gochujang "marinade"
(with some onions and such). Let sit for a day in the sauce then toss 'em in
the oven for a bit. Works great for chicken too.

~~~
itchyouch
Do you mean the high pressure asian rice cookers like a Zojirushi or Cuckoo?
Not the $30 black and deckers you can get at Bed Bath and Beyond...

~~~
allannienhuis
I don't think the high pressure asian rice cookers qualify as 'your regular
everyday rice cooker' :) But I'm also sceptical. The regular rice cookers cook
for quite a bit less than 1 hr; not sure how you'd get fall-off-the-bone ribs
cooked that quickly. That said, it's super easy to try...

~~~
njarboe
I'm not really sure, but I thought that rice cookers turned off when all the
water was gone (absorbed and boiled off) and the temp got above 100C. Then,
with lots of liquid to boil off, the cooker could heat for a long time and
turn off when the fluid is gone.

~~~
dagw
My old rice cooker at least a had hold cycle that would keep the rice warm
'indefinitely' after it was done. I'm guessing this is what is being used to
cook the ribs.

~~~
njarboe
Mine has that feature also and I think you are right that this is what is slow
cooking the ribs.

------
Cerium
Lazy Costco Ribs - Buy pre-seasoned Costco ribs. Wrap in tightly sealed foil
pouch, meat side down, and cook at a 225 for 2.5 hours. Open, and flip onto
fresh foil, discarding the oil. Wait until you are almost ready to eat, then
cook at 4:50 for ~10-15 minutes until desired level of browning.

------
kswahl1
Aaron Frankin has a great series of videos on YouTube if you're into that sort
of thing. [https://youtu.be/0eSFdddaRnk](https://youtu.be/0eSFdddaRnk)

------
graycat
This thread looks MUCH better informed on BBQ than the OP.

"Collagen," that is, melting it -- from all I could tell, yup -- that's the
true _secret_ to cooking a wide range of meats.

Yup, from the investigations I did on the Internet, the secret number is 160
F; first cut, for just one number, that's the temperature at which collagen
melts.

The next secret is that the muscle fibers are always tender. That is, if meat
is tough, the cause is that the collagen has not yet been melted out.

Next secret is, if get the muscle fibers much over 160 F for too long, then
the proteins change, expel their water, and become dry and brittle. No
additional cooking will fix that. You have ruined meat.

For years I read dreamy recipes from the NYT, Julia Child, Jacques Pepin, etc.
about delicious, lovable, traditional beef stew from France, Italy, etc.,
please the family, the neighbors, guests, have a great dish for pot luck
dinners, have everyone in the family gathering around with family bonding,
etc., and tried and tried and tried, with lots of garlic, onions, carrots,
beef stock, red wine, etc., everything done more carefully than I worked in
college chemistry lab, and the results were always disaster. Always. That went
on off and on for years. Lots of wasted time, money, effort, and groceries,
and lots of ruined meat.

Why? Never, not once, ever, did any of those dreamy sources mention meat
temperature. Not once. With iron determination, feet locked deep in reinforced
concrete, the authors, apparently on penalty of slow torture or being stewed
themselves, ever, Ever, EVER let themselves mention meat temperature of 160 F
and melting collagen.

From those years of frustration and failure, I still resent what the NYT,
Child, Pepin wrote. I'm no longer explosively mad, boiling oil mad, or just
boiling mad, but I'm still simmering. This thread alone is MUCH better. So,
we're talking (A) the highly self-esteemed NYT and some high end book
publishing houses and (B) some largely anonymous HN readers. And, may I have
the envelope please? And the winner, by huge margins, on all points, is HN!

Finally I learned on the Internet from some sites with some people quite
serious about good BBQ. Gee, they were serious enough to use thermometers! In
the meat itself, not just the hot air under some metal dome 16 inches above
the meat, not just the wall of the oven! And they fully understood melting
collagen!

The writers were famous? Nope. Well informed? YUP!

But, now the NYT has improved, right?

Let's see: The OP has some thing about 135 F for many hours. Hmm .... Last I
heard, we want 145+ F for food safety. Uh, I'd suggest, that stuff that was at
135 F for some hours, try to take the family yacht about 200 miles east of
Boston, weight the stuff down with lead, and, in the dark, without the EPA
around, drop it overboard. Hope it doesn't kill off the worms three miles
down. Uh, maybe wrap that meat with a copy of the NYT?

Generally, my opinion about the NYT and the cookbook publishers is that they
are interested in vicarious escapist fantasy emotional experience
entertainment (VEFEEE) with little connection with reality, facts, times,
temperatures, weights, volumes, pH, information, instruction, or actual good
cooking results. E.g., for decades they wouldn't tell me about 160 F and
collagen, and now they are saying something about 135 F. Did I hear that the
NYT is going out of business? Maybe I heard some such thing.

But, I know; I know; the OP is fine if want to imagine a really great backyard
party, with 20 guests, some A-listers, a couple of Ferrari cars on the grass,
lots of good beer, heck, Chardonnay, pass around a football, some hoops, etc.
That's all on the porch of a Manhattan high rise apartment building?

Suggestion: NYT people, if you want good BBQ, order carryout! Or, gee, even
have some via FedEx from Memphis!

Next, we might consider Maillard browning? And especially for ribs, smoke
rings?

BBQ is good, not just a little good but really good. Fancy? No. Good? Darned
right. Why? As in

Gray Kunz and Peter Kaminsky, _The Elements of Taste_ , ISBN 0-316-60874-2,
Little, Brown and Company, Boston, 2001.

BBQ hits hard on all of sweet, sour, salty, hot (as in pepper), and onion and
garlic.

I apologize here because due to working on my startup I'm temporarily out of
cooking for a hobby. I hope to return. Everything I posted here is from years
ago. But, when I return I will have this thread as additional information!

~~~
dragonwriter
> Let's see: The OP has some thing about 135 F for many hours. Hmm .... Last I
> heard, we want 145+ F for food safety.

Holding at 145F for a short time works for most bacteria of concern (some you
need higher for a short time), but most can also be killed at 135 for a long
time (hours). Temperature and time need to be considered together.

~~~
graycat
So, while holding this meat at 135 F for the specified hours, in the last 30
minutes a fly touches down on the meat. Oops, the meat is no longer safe.

In practice 135 F is a bit too cool to be very safe.

Sure, the situation is more complicated than just one number for temperature
and, sure, time is also important. And, sure, can still eat rare (never got as
warm as 135 F) beef steak, say, a thick T-bone, if are sure the cow was
healthy so that the interior of the steak is sterile and if have browned the
outside to sterilize it.

I remember Dad's remark on rare steak: "I've seen critters get hurt worse'n
that and get well." IIRC for human fingers, pain to the touch is about 140 F.

Still, for practice 135 F is a bit cool, especially for holding meat at that
temperature for a long time as in the OP. Or, sure, if the meat at 135 F were
in some sterile, air-tight situation for all the hours, okay, but that's not
very realistic for a real kitchen.

------
drewcon
Just no.

