
Judge unseals trove of internal Facebook documents from 2012 legal action - dustinmoris
https://www.revealnews.org/blog/a-judge-unsealed-a-trove-of-internal-facebook-documents-following-our-legal-action
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jammygit
I was talking to my wife the other day about how League of Legends used to
accept Subway gift cards as a form of payment. My theory was that it was to
get at kids lunch money in case the parents wouldn't give them money for a
game - that way they could target vulnerable kids with their systems.

I can't know if I was right or not, and its pretty cynical, but in this other
case from the article we have Angry Birds with an average player age of 5
years old using deceptive in-game currencies and gambling/behaviourist
inspired design practices to make thousands of dollars off of certain young
high risk players.

Every year that goes by I'm shocked this sort of thing continues to be legal

~~~
sametmax
Before that we had (and still have) Magic the Gathering. I remember spending a
huge amount on money on "boosters": packs of random cards with a chance of
containing a good or rare one.

Then you had (still have) Mac Donald and their monopoly game.

And you had (and still have) the TV games where you could send a text, and
before that call, for a chance to win, with ads during kids show. And before
that, you could send a letter.

In France we had a sweet called "mistral gagnant", which you bought because if
the sweet was a winner, you'd get another one for free.

I'm pretty sure things existed way, way, before that, I'm just not aware of
it.

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mschuster91
> Before that we had Magic the Gathering.

Similar to Pokemon, you at least got something _tangible_. Even if MtG or
Pokemon shutdown tomorrow, you can still play with your cards until you die,
and then your kids can play with them.

Or you can sell them to other kids or collectors.

> Then you have Mac Donald and their monopoly game.

Also, here you got a tangible benefit (you got fed).

This is the key difference versus paying for Ninja Wars, or even for non-
pay2win-stuff like "skins". The second the game servers get shut down is also
the second your collection becomes worthless. And if you're done with the game
you can't even sell on your stuff to someone else.

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sametmax
Watching a movie on a DVD or from a file on your hard drive is still a movie,
tangible or not.

In the example of the Magic card, those cards had no value for a human being,
biologically speaking. We gave them value. You could as well write the card
text on a piece of paper and play it the same way.

The fact they are tangible pieces of paper doesn't erase the gambling-for-
children aspect. Nor does it give them any more real value than a video game
bonus. They have the value we estimate in our heads.

You give for example a low value to a LoL skin. But to a player that spends
hours a day on it, and use it as a central platform for social interactions
and fun, the skin has an impact, and for a long time.

I played dota for a years, I never bough a skin, but when I won one, I sure
used it.

~~~
Semaphor
A difference with MtG is also the target market. I started playing with 8,
went to my first tournament (also the first time I met players other than my
best friend) at 10 and we got laughed at for having German cards. Pretty much
everyone was 5-7 years older than us.

Not sure how it is nowadays, but on the other hand, from what I read, you just
buy whatever deck you want directly instead of going through boosters.

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peteretep
One thing HN has taught me many times is I’m too trustful of people and
things. I was defending Theranos way past their sell-by date, and I’ve been
refusing to take “Facebook / Zuck is evil” seriously for a long time too. This
isn’t a good look for them at all tho

~~~
reasonablemann
My high school had the foresight to have a media literacy class 20 years ago.
I never looked at an advertisement the same after that.

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Cpoll
Do you recall what the required reading was?

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TaylorAlexander
This is truly a fantastic place to start (there is a book of the same name):

[https://youtu.be/AnrBQEAM3rE](https://youtu.be/AnrBQEAM3rE)

~~~
pennaMan
Outstanding. A 1992 documentary that describes fb and all modern media down to
a T.

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tareqak
Quote: The judge agreed with Facebook’s request to keep some of the records
sealed, saying certain records contained information that would cause the
social media giant harm, outweighing the public benefit.

How does that make sense? If the action Facebook committed was somehow morally
reprehensible, but legal?

~~~
isomorphic
The interesting part about that to me is that they don't regard the fleecing-
children part to be "giant harm." I.e., the court has records that are even
_more_ damaging to Facebook.

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detaro
Or they think in that case, the public benefit outweighs the damage to
Facebook.

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pc86
This is much more likely IMO. The public benefit of different pieces of
information can vary greatly, with most probably approaching zero. Even if the
child-fleecing stuff was the _most harmful_ of anything to FB, it's still
reasonable that other things are not beneficial enough to release even if they
likely are not as damaging.

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mschuster91
Jeez. If half the quotes from there are accurate, there should be actual _jail
sentences_ for those involved. This is exploiting kids for cash. Utterly
reprehensible.

It's bad enough to exploit adults, but kids who literally do not understand
the concept of money?! Or doing the internet equivalent of the "snacks
display" right besides the supermarket cash register line - make the kids
throw tantrums at their parents so that they put up cash. Vile!

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lordnacho
The marginal cost for FB of providing games to a kid like in the example is
zero. I'm surprised their support staff didn't just fold when there was a
complaint. If they did this might not have ended up in the press.

I can understand if a firm sends out some product that depreciates like a
lollipop, they might suffer an actual loss if the purchase was done by a kid.

But in this case it's hard to see anything reasonable about how FB has
behaved. Clearly the kids don't want to be spending hundreds of their parents'
dollars.

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CuriousSkeptic
Why is it still standard to use a single shared card number for non-revocable
authorization and no interactive confirmations for online payments?

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azthecx
This is exclusive to Portugal right now, but we have a system called
MBNet/MBWay that is supported by all the major banks in which you can create
one-time use cards or cards with recurring monthly allowances for use in the
same vendor.

It's really well polished and has a lot of other very useful QoL features,
such has direct transfers based on cellphone numbers, which allow you to
instantly pay dinner debts to your friends. I am surprised to hear it doesn't
exist outside pt.

~~~
asaddhamani
Also Privacy.com

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throw2016
There is now a whole lineup of pro corporate decisions by judges that need
more scrutiny and dissent, and some way to return to defending the public
interest.

In this case sealing was clearly not in the public interest, at the very least
it would have alerted parents, prevented more abuse and increased public
awareness of a growing toxic culture.

This would have have produced better outcomes for all parties, including
Facebook and their employees by forcing a rethink of their business practices
and processes.

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sshagent
How do they know the average age of Angry Bird gamers at the time were 5?
Surely they know if they are 13+ (and specific age if so ).

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laurex
> "The judge agreed with Facebook’s request to keep some of the records
> sealed, saying certain records contained information that would cause the
> social media giant harm, outweighing the public benefit."

What could possibly be more harmful than what has already been released? It's
a bit mind-boggling.

~~~
trobertson
A redditor in the /r/technology thread on this recalled that Facebook has
performed emotion manipulation experiments in the past. It may be that
Facebook was using those capabilities to make kids and teens more vulnerable
to ads.

[https://www.reddit.com/r/technology/comments/ahbj8b/federal_...](https://www.reddit.com/r/technology/comments/ahbj8b/federal_judge_unseals_trove_of_internal_facebook/eed949m/)

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renholder
>Edelman declined to say more, citing a confidentiality clause in the
settlement.

Confidentiality agreements _always_ keep these kinds of things from coming to
light, merely because the cost of breaking them is too damned high.

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excalibur
> Yet the company continued to deny refunds to children, profiting from their
> confusion.

> Facebook often failed to send receipts for these purchases, and links on the
> company’s website to dispute charges frequently failed to work, according to
> court records.

So if you can't get a refund from Facebook, contact your financial institution
and dispute the charges through them. There's no guarantee of success, but you
probably have a better shot going that route.

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mrguyorama
How is not sending out receipts legal?

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rahimnathwani
What law obligates a vendor to send a receipt?

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mtnGoat
I think all the card associations require it as do a number of us states. I
can't find a federal law but there might be one as well.

Edit:spelling.

