
Official statement from WikiLeaks regarding Edward Snowden's exit from Hong Kong - waawal
http://wikileaks.org/WikiLeaks-Statement-On-Edward.html
======
drawkbox
Playing devil's advocate here, and watched a bunch of spy movies...

What if Snowden is still a CIA agent (he was a CIA agent for years before NSA)
and this is actually a snowjob/whitewash by the government to deflect
attention or essentially control the message about news they knew would be
released (diffusing that/controlling that message) and black-ops about China,
Russia, Cuba + Venezuela how they treat/process possible 'traitors' or spies?

I hope that is not the case and he is sincere, it would be great if the US
could just pardon him and address our Constitutional issues. But if they
pardon him doesn't the above seem like an outside possibility?

Or am I reading too much Tom Clancy and watching too many spy movies?

It does seem most whistleblowers are swept under the rug but here you have one
that is garnering lots of news and attracting lots of attention across
multiple weeks/weekends to things that were previously labeled 'conspiracy' or
only seen in movies (yet have been in the news quietly before, since 9/11).
Now it is international news everywhere. He is almost the perfect leaker,
making more waves than all combined.

~~~
awakeasleep
Ill go a step further. Snowmen is really a bellwether event created by this
administration to either provide a redemption story for the Obama
administration, should the public object too strongly-- or to test if
surveillance can be taken much farther (if the public remains apathetic)

~~~
joe_the_user
The only thing I might agree with is that this may be a bellwether event.

It's not useful scrounging up, uh, conspiracy theories for how it happened
unless there is evidence.

The only argument you're invoking is abduction - that no other approach fits
the facts. But the thing about the NSA is the level of spying and power that's
demonstrated gives a strong indication they just don't have much reason to
care what the public thinks. The average NSA bureaucrat isn't worried about
the public at all but what argument their boss or colleague will use against
them. And letting out information goes so hard against the default impulse
that letting information out intentionally seems way unlikely, even as part of
a clever master plan. I mean, if we're wandering to wild speculation land, the
NSA has dozens of potential master plans. One that releases information and
makes them look bad wouldn't do well in the "master-plan competition" \- held
yearly at Area 51!

~~~
awakeasleep
Yes, my post was an intellectual exercise ignoring the fact that public
opinion plays little to no role in defense politics, especially not for a
president nearing the end of his second term.

------
synctext
Why is this trip of Snowden made into a media event?

The Aeroflot flight number was public! Is this to counter a secret rendition
attempt? Did we wake-up in a world with 007 stuff happening to real computer
nerds, not just high-paid actors?

~~~
Tangaroa
The entire Snowden hoax is a media event, a PR campaign to cover up the fact
that he spied on the US for foreign powers. It's the most effective case of
spin and damage control that I've ever seen.

~~~
danenania
Spying on the fact that the US spies on everybody?

Do you think people who keep their mouths shut as they and their coworkers do
things like torture other human beings and build totalitarian surveillance
infrastructure are good people?

Sorry to invoke Godwin, but the Nazis would have loved folks like that.

~~~
Tangaroa
Please show me where Snowden has exposed his coworkers torturing other human
beings.

Please show me where Snowden has exposed his coworkers building a totalitarian
surveillance infrastructure. Justify describing it as 'totalitarian'.

And for calling me a Nazi, go fuck yourself.

~~~
danenania
If a global system to capture the digital communications of everyone on the
planet does not merit the term 'totalitarian', then that term has lost all
meaning.

I didn't call you a Nazi. I said the Nazis would have loved people who were ok
with that kind of thing. Isn't that fairly obvious?

Do you think they would have preferred a guy like Snowden?

~~~
Tangaroa
Snowden has not, in fact, revealed the existence of a global system to capture
the digital communications of everyone on the planet. Try again.

Also, I'd still like to hear the explanation of how Snowden exposed his NSA
co-workers torturing people. I had not heard that one.

~~~
gareim
Do you care to reply to the others who have replied to you regarding the
Verizon calls or have you lost your voice there?

------
pvnick
This is so exciting. Makes Tom Clancy novels seem dull and predictable.

~~~
dopamean
I cant wait for the movie!

~~~
enraged_camel
Haha, now that I think about it, there _will_ definitely be a movie about this
in 5-10 years. The question is how it will actually portray Snowden...

------
Kiro
"What is being done to Mr Snowden and to Mr Julian Assange - for making or
facilitating disclosures in the public interest - is an assault against the
people."

What exactly is being "done" to Julian Assange? The only reason he's stuck in
the embassy is because of rape accusations.

~~~
arcadeparade
Actually he said he would go to Sweden if they promised not to extradite him
to the USA and they refused.

~~~
gsnedders
…because the Swedish government can make no such promise, as extradition is a
matter for the judiciary, and the judiciary cannot hear the case until they
have an extradition request in hand. Having a strong separation between
government and judiciary is _good_.

He never had any guarantee from the UK that he would not be extradited, and
yet was happy to spend time there.

~~~
vidarh
> …because the Swedish government can make no such promise, as extradition is
> a matter for the judiciary

This is a half truth. The Swedish government can overrule the judiciary to
prevent extradition, and have on multiple occasions.

They government have _chosen_ not to offer such guarantees.

Though frankly, a bigger concern is the prosecutors insistence on not
questioning him in the UK and her claim she somehow can't, despite evidence to
the contrary (Swedish police regularly questions suspects outside of Sweden)

> He never had any guarantee from the UK that he would not be extradited, and
> yet was happy to spend time there.

He was happy to spend time here because unlike Sweden, the UK has not been
_quite_ as willing to illegally hand people over to the CIA for rendition
flights (Sweden has admitted to multiple instances), and has a legal system
that at least has a little bit of a spine in extradition cases on occasion.

~~~
mongol
Within a month, an extradition request was made official for Snowden. But in 2
years time, no such thing for Assange.

~~~
trevelyan
Then there should be no problem with the Swedish government offering a
guarantee against extradition.

------
zissou
Fun fact about Aeroflot: The slogan for Aeroflot back in the days of the USSR
was _" You Have Made The Right Choice"_, which is ironic since Aeroflot was
the _only_ airline in the Soviet Union.

------
darxius
I wonder if this will see Wikileaks become a sort of worldwide whistleblower
protection agency. Seeing as most countries don't exactly have the best
whistleblower protection programs.

~~~
Nrsolis
Exactly how would this work? WikiArmy?

~~~
Nursie
Sure. A modern underground railroad if thats what it takes.

~~~
libria
Could be an interesting poll: Would you secretly house Snowden if he knocked
on your door tomorrow?

~~~
darxius
Would it be illegal to house Snowden for, let's say 24 hours, if you don't
live in the US?

~~~
netrus
Why would it be? It's not my business to report anything to anyone, as long as
he does not brag about criminal activities all too open ...

~~~
gst
> It's not my business to report anything to anyone

Actually it is. If you're in a Common Law legislation there's a good chance
the you could be charged with conspiracy. And if you're in a Civil Law
legislation there's a good chance that your country requires you to report
ongoing crimes once you gain knowledge about them (of course there's the
question if a court will treat Snowden's actions as completed or as ongoing
crimes).

Not arguing about the moral thing to do here, just about the legal point of
view.

~~~
DanBC
> if you're in a Civil Law legislation there's a good chance that your country
> requires you to report ongoing crimes once you gain knowledge about them

Does anyone have any citations for this please? (I'm especially interested in
English law, but any other country is fine too.)

~~~
gst
English law is common law. For further reading I recommend the following two
Wikipedia links:
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conspiracy_(crime)](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conspiracy_\(crime\))
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accessory_(legal_term)](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accessory_\(legal_term\))

It seems that at least in the United States there's quite a broad range of
things that courts consider as "conspiracy". For example, a few years ago
Reinhard Berkau (a German lawyer) was sentenced to prison in the US, because
of a crime one of his clients did. He also published a book on his experiences
(unfortunately in German only) in case you're interested in the background.

------
nraynaud
"Mr Snowden requested that WikiLeaks use its legal expertise and experience to
secure his safety." They tried 2 times before, Manning is in jail, Assange is
living in an embassy. Only losers quit.

edit: I see that Garzon is on board, he's the one who tried to judge Pinochet,
one of the CIA's dictator. His job ended when he tried to bring trials for
acts of the spanish dictature.

~~~
dawkins
His job ended because he knew he didn't have jurisdiction to start this trials
but he proceeded anyway and because he asked for money to a banker who was
judging at the time (the infamous "dear Emilio" letter)

------
jpatokal
Hmm. Either they're calling Venezuela a "democratic nation", which seems a bit
of a stretch, or Snowden's actually heading somewhere other than the media is
reporting. I'm hoping for option B.

~~~
octo_t
Venezuela is one of the most democratic countries in the world?

All of their last elections have been externally ratified as being fair:

[http://www.cartercenter.org/news/pr/hugo-
chavez-030513.html](http://www.cartercenter.org/news/pr/hugo-
chavez-030513.html)

[http://www.cartercenter.org/countries/venezuela-peace-
electi...](http://www.cartercenter.org/countries/venezuela-peace-
elections.html)

~~~
jpatokal
Are you serious? Chavez spent his entire period in office warping the
machinery of the state in his favor, and his successor is refusing to
investigate some pretty serious allegations of fraud for the last one.

[http://www.economist.com/news/americas/21579458-real-
questio...](http://www.economist.com/news/americas/21579458-real-questions-
about-maduros-victory-have-not-been-answered-beside-point)

~~~
justsee
"Chávez himself read my findings on potential elections theft – to his nation
on his TV show – and then he moved swiftly, establishing an election system
that Jimmy Carter, who has headed vote observer teams in 92 nations, called,
'an election process that is the best in the world'.

Here's how it works: every Venezuelan voter gets TWO ballots. One is
electronic, the second is a paper print-out of the touch-screen ballot, which
the voter reviews, authorises, then places in a locked ballot-box. An
astounding 54 percent of the boxes are chosen at random to open and check
against the computer tally. It's as close to a bulletproof count as you can
get." [1]

In the face of significant US interference Venezuala could have gone extremely
dictatorial, but it seems they went the other way and implemented a more
secure voting process than in many other countries where electronic voting is
used.

[1] [http://www.gregpalast.com/did-chavez-pick-steal-the-
election...](http://www.gregpalast.com/did-chavez-pick-steal-the-election-in-
venezuela/)

~~~
cjfont
The way I understand it, the ballot by itself does not unique ly identify the
voter -- however in addition to the physical and electronic ballots, an
electoral notebook records the vote and links the ballot to the voter's
identity. As part of their "audit", The CNE refused to include the information
from the notebooks, and thus irregularities such as an individual voting
multiple times as a deceased person would not be able to be detected.

~~~
justsee
> thus irregularities such as an individual voting multiple times as a
> deceased person would not be able to be detected.

That doesn't seem correct. Voters need to provide identification and their
fingerprints (!) as part of the voting process, so the risk of these
irregularities would be much lower than, for instance, the United States.

~~~
cjfont
The voters do provide this identification, but this information is recorded in
the electoral notebooks, which the CNE does not want to include as part of the
audit.

------
babesh
Imagine the financial power in the data the government has and doesn't want to
reveal. Like who is buying and selling what stocks. That information is gold
for data mining.

~~~
dllthomas
And remember, insider trading basically doesn't apply to Congress...

------
gexla
This seems like a much better move. If I wanted to disappear, I would much
rather take my chances in rural areas where people are less likely to be
watching the news rather than a city which has my picture on banners and
screens everywhere. All I would need is the middle ground between remote and
having a functional internet connection. Then I would just setup a cottage,
create a business profile and financial accounts in my partner's name (which
would likely be my girlfriend, probably on a fast track to marriage, who I
recently met in my new home in South America) and do whatever freelance work I
would need to get by (I'm sure Snowden could find quite a bit of work with his
tech skills.)

I'm not sure I would want for WikiLeaks to be announcing my moves, but this is
probably something you can't escape, so might as well take the help from one
of the players who are reporting the story.

ETA: Or maybe I spoke too soon. I'm not sure anyone really knows where he is
going.

~~~
rdouble
Rural communities aren't great places to hide because everyone is nosey and
tend to be suspicious about recent arrivals. Huge cities are easier to
disappear into anonymity. That said, Moscow and Caracas aren't exactly rural
hamlets.

------
spdy
How does diplomatic immunity work if you are in the entourage of an diplomat?

~~~
Andrew_Quentin
I would think the plane is safe and perhaps the plane could be considered as
territory of the nation of the diplomat therefore the diplomat could offer him
asylum on the plane if need be, but I may be wrong about the latter.

~~~
jpatokal
Nope: diplomatic immunity extends only to diplomats and their immediate
families. As Snowden is neither, and cannot be nominated as one without the
host country's approval, there's nothing stopping Russia or Cuba from
detaining Snowden if they wanted to, no matter how many Elbonian diplomats
he's travelling with.

(Source: I used to have diplomatic immunity.)

~~~
foobarqux
In your opinion what were some of the best benefits of having diplomatic
immunity?

~~~
jmonegro
I used to have diplomatic immunity as well. Getting to ignore parking tickets
and other fines, police officers treating you like royalty, no security
checkpoints or lines at the airport (and a very comfy ambassador's lounge),
complimentary upgrades to first class and not having to pay taxes (sales or
otherwise) at the host country are the first that come to mind.

------
outside1234
Venezuela? Oh no. I feel like this is going to end badly for Snowden. Its hard
to imagine him not getting scooped up in a black helicopter now.

------
tassl
I find it (a bit) ironic that the WikiLeaks lawyer that is giving legal advice
to Snowden is Baltasar Garzon, who was suspended for improper eavesdropping.

*As a clarification, this suspension was mostly political, being Spain one of the most corrupt countries in Europe and with a dark and terrible past due the dictatorship that ended 37 years ago. Garzon tried to investigate the crimes committed by Franco (related to the right wind in Spain) and a few years later he was judging a corruption case (called Gürtel), which lead to his suspension.

------
kator
Looks like he walked right through a legal loop hole (for now).

~~~
jnbiche
There are no legal niceties here. This is about raw military power (Russia's)
and spheres of influence (again, Russia's).

~~~
Nrsolis
What's really sad is that this guy is going to learn really fast that he's now
in a sphere where the rules simply don't apply.

He's put himself in play and he's going to learn very quickly that he has few
friends where a nation considers the information in his brain essential to
their national security.

[http://www.amazon.com/The-Flight-Falcon-Manhunt-
Americas/dp/...](http://www.amazon.com/The-Flight-Falcon-Manhunt-
Americas/dp/1585747718)

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Falcon_and_the_Snowman](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Falcon_and_the_Snowman)

~~~
nraynaud
Yeah, as seen from far away, Latin America is just CIA's backyard, and as far
as I know they have no restrain there.

~~~
Nrsolis
You took the words right out of my mouth.

Remember that the Russians killed Litvinenko in the middle of Mayfair, London,
UK.

The Israelis killed Mahmoud Hamshari in Paris.

Remember that these were all nuclear nations.

I'll leave the research of any possible US involvements as an exercise to the
reader.

~~~
vinceguidry
These sort of tricks are precisely why Snowden went public.

~~~
Nrsolis
Litvinenko was pretty public IIRC. Still dead. Still radioactive.

~~~
vinceguidry
Nobody said it was 100% effective.

------
at-fates-hands
"being escorted by diplomats and legal advisors from WikiLeaks."

Since when did WikiLEaks have diplomats on its payroll??

~~~
X-Istence
They don't have to be on the pay roll to still believe that Wikileaks is
providing a greater resource to the world...

------
sublimit
Suddenly the front page is Snowden Snowden Snowden. Hacker News is even worse
than Reddit at latching to news-of-the-minute.

~~~
trevelyan
The unraveling of the American Republic is news of the century. Additionally,
in terms of the implications of this leak for geopolitics and Internet
business/security, this is easily the biggest and most important story in
international affairs since 2001.

~~~
xtracto
But still not hacker news. This type of news was part of the doom of Slashdot.
Sure, political news are fine, but a lot of us do not come to Hacker News for
political news... we _are_ aware of Reddit, Slashdot and news.google.com

------
reaganing
So cute how Wikileaks is always trying to insert themselves into this story.

~~~
t0dd
Did you even read their statement? They're the ones trying to provide him safe
passage to a place of refuge. Remind me again, as its a common refrain, how
shamelessly self-promoting WikiLeaks is? To my knowledge, everyone involved
has made great personal sacrifices (basically given up their lives) to expose
the truth to an indifferent public. Bradley Manning has been locked away for
years, denied almost all human interaction. Julian Assange is holed up in an
embassy. Snowden is the most wanted man on the planet. Do such people really
deserve your derision?

~~~
reaganing
They do when they knowingly break the laws and run away from the consequences
like Snowden and Assange have (Assange's even more appalling given the rape
allegations he also ran away from). Manning, at least, didn't do that.

I stand corrected about Wikileaks role in this particular aspect of the story
as they do seem to actually be helping him elude justice. But they seemed to
have nothing to do with his actual leaks, yet I've seen multiple 'statements'
from them on the matter that seemed to only serve as a way to remind people of
their existence. At least now they have an actual reason, I guess.

~~~
t0dd
I'm afraid your understanding of justice and my own differ greatly. It's
probably an insurmountable impasse. To me, exposing a massive surveillance
apparatus is a laudable act of heroism, and he doesn't deserve this kind of
condemnation. What if, just maybe, the laws you defend so adamantly are
unjust? What about the consequences for all of us that live under them? Why
not defend those that tell us the truth?

~~~
reaganing
You can argue about whether they're unjust laws or not, but they still exist
and if you break them, you should face the consequences. That's what the civil
rights leaders in this country did, among others.

But honestly, from my reading, I'm mostly okay with what the NSA's doing and
most of what he revealed isn't all that new or surprising (others reported on
PRISM long ago, local governments have kept track of phone records for
decades, it only makes sense the feds would as well). This is also what many
citizens want their government to be doing, hence the many complaints about
the Boston bombers not being adequately tracked beforehand.

The one part that troubles me is the storing of 'inadvertently' collected
communications from US citizens for five years without a warrant. That seems
wrong. Other than that, I only think there should be a bit more transparency.
If Snowden's leaks lead to that, that's a good thing.

------
e3pi
"Over the jungle, the quiet jungle, the drone hunts tonight

...[365/24/7 refrain]...

Over the ice field, the empty ice field, the raptor hunts tonight

...[365/24/7 refrain]...

(sung to The Lion Sleeps Tonight)

If true, this exit is good news! I have worried about his safety for the past
two weeks. ES needs a redoubtable safe-house enclave/bunker like a free
Assange to repeatedly surgically strike while the iron is hot. Exposing
heinous criminal abuse of state entrusted power, founded on self-witnessed
righteous indignation- leveraged by gigahertz worldwide public networks- makes
for a seriously formidable anti-Borg threat. I hope Assange's crack team are
good chess players to be constantly vigilant, and terra-sotto terrified how
dangerous this is. Endlessly run gold/blue team attack game/simulations, have
seasoned and wounded trade-crafters as loyal and encrazed armed sentinels,
handling also, a hyper-alert pack of google-glass augmented Scottish Border
Collies:

