

'Warrior Gene' Linked To Gang Membership, Weapon Use - amichail
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/06/090605123237.htm

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amichail
Just as computers and the internet have caused all sorts of problems with
existing laws, so too will genetics.

In both cases, there is no solution in sight.

~~~
TriinT
A solution would be to allow violence in a controlled environment, rather than
suppress it completely.

Boys like to fight. Instead of denying it, why not nurture it in a responsible
manner? Get the angry teenage kids out of the cities and suburbs and give them
a real challenge. Martial arts, full-contact, hiking, rock-climbing, white-
water rafting. Whatever works to keep them busy and physically tired.

Most kids don't like to learn. Only a very few teenage boys can be entertained
with math and programming puzzles. But if you give the majority of teenage
boys some _macho_ stuff to do, they will most likely embrace the challenge.

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LogicHoleFlaw
You've just described the Boy Scouts, in many respects.

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TriinT
I was thinking of the boy scouts on steroids, so to say. The boy scouts are
too well-behaved. A little bit of boot-camp atmosphere would be interesting.

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ninguem2
Well, there's the armed forces, but the consequences are not so pretty.

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TriinT
The armed forces are for kids older than 18. I think 13-18 y.o. teenage boys
with too much testosterone could use a sort of "boot-camp lite" thing. Instead
of shooting weapons, they could focus on less deadly stuff which is equally
_macho_. Say, survival training, martial arts, extreme sports, etc.

This would probably never work in Europe because it would bring back memories
of Hitler's youth. I am totally pro-freedom and anti-fascism, but I think that
leaving teenage boys bored in the cities and suburbs with nothing to do is
dangerous. The amount of money spent on teaching them how to fight, rock-
climb, whatever, would perhaps be saved in less prisons and criminality.

Giving a teenage boy something challenging to do can be a huge self-confidence
booster. Moreover, it can allow him to use his aggressiveness in a productive
manner.

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anamax
> Instead of shooting weapons

Why not weapons?

The Rochester Youth Study, one of the longest study of youth behavior, found
that who kids learn to use weapons matters from a lot. Kids who learn from
parents and authority figures are far less likely to use them criminally than
kids who learn from other kids.

This didn't effect didn't translate to less criminality in general - kids who
learned about guns from parents were just as likely to engage in criminal
activity, they just didn't use guns.

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krakensden
Er, but are they controlling for other environmental risk factors? In other
words, I would guess that most kids from the suburbs learn to use weapons from
authority figures- but they were probably never going to fall on the wrong
side of the law anyhow.

~~~
qaexl
It'd be straight out of Lord of the Flies without some sort of authority
figure.

I generally think it is a great idea though, particularly about throwing them
out into wilderness for survival training and martial arts.

Going only by my own memories of being a teenager, 13-18 in our current
society is no different than a Milgram prison experiment. That's gotta
exacerbate the genetic disposition for violence rather than contain it.
Whereas out in the wilderness, violence is simply a part of nature.

Martial arts, on the other hand, explores the edges of natural instincts (for
violence) and civilizing influences. Taught carefully, a genetic disposition
for violence becomes a resource that can be tapped, rather than an external
controlling factor.

I didn't know that about kids who learn weapons training are less likely to
use it for violence. I think I can make use of that.

~~~
anamax
> I didn't know that about kids who learn weapons training are less likely to
> use it for violence.

It's not "learn weapons training" that's important. It's from whom they learn.

Various people have observed that the secret to civil society is dangerous old
men who are civil.

~~~
qaexl
Right, I forgot to add "authority figure".

Among my friends, we call those dangerous old men as having "Old Man Powers".
Having had a day to think this over, I'm not sure "authority figure" would be
the right attitude either. Even though I'm nearing 30, the demonstration of
old man powers still awe me, however, "authority figures" whom I have little
or no respect for (the man, not the office) inspires disgust or contempt. I
like Neal Stepheson's description the best -- every teenage (boy) grows up
wanting to be a badass.

I think someone suggested creating a program for this. Although it would give
violent teengers of apprenticeship age a chance to integrate into society,
that is only the symptom. A more complete solution would be people reading
here -- me personally, you personally -- to acquire badass skills and
cultivate them in the teenage apprentices, regardless of whether they are
likely to be violent or not. Instead of waiting for a far-off government
administration to get the genetic testing in place and create special training
camps, do what you can do in the local environment. Lend some time to Boy
Scouts or Venturing Crew. Or just demonstrate some badass skill to
neighborhood teenagers, saying, "Hey. Check this out."

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GiraffeNecktie
It's too bad the article doesn't provide more information and context. There
are lots of studies that show people with gene x are more prone to y, but for
a given individual the results are not a useful predictor of anything.
Therefore it's a little troubling that people can be flagged as "potential
violent gang member" based on their genetics.

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tokenadult
_There are lots of studies that show people with gene x are more prone to y_

Yes, and many of those studies aren't replicated when another data set is
looked at. Gene association studies related to human behavior are thus far
very subject to failure of replication.

<http://norvig.com/experiment-design.html>

Maybe some day there will be better studies with more reliable, replicable
findings. Then there should be a way to tease out what environmental
influences provide resiliency and protect against the effects of risky genes.
Meanwhile, the first thing to do with this result is to see if it holds up in
a different cohort of young people tested for gene associations to behavior.

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ilaksh
So the logical thing to do is to create a gene therapy correcting germlines
with this variant and provide it to juvenile delinquents (or simply confirmed
carriers) before they reproduce.

~~~
qaexl
Farmers breed docility into their livestock so that they are easier to handle
when sending them to the slaughterhouse.

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kingkawn
Next we're going to hear about the higher prevalence of this gene in minority
communities, and then we'll hear how the prison-industrial complex was really
wonderful all along.

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joeycfan
More anti-male crap. These genes are necessary for human survival, but
academics think everyone lives in a fluffy pink cradle - like them.

