
Ask HN: What is your company's policy regarding side-projects? - shubhamjain
I realised today that Google has a separate committee [1] from which the employee needs permission if she wants to continue working on the personal project and also retain the copyright. Otherwise, Google owns any IP created while you&#x27;re at the company.<p>How liberal is your company regarding personal projects?<p>[1]: https:&#x2F;&#x2F;opensource.google.com&#x2F;docs&#x2F;iarc&#x2F;
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CM30
The last two companies I worked for were pretty clear about it:

Everything you work on outside of work is your own property, and we have no
real interest in it. Even on work computers, as long as it's not part of a
client project, then it's your property.

Honestly, I'm kind of surprised how many companies seemingly don't work like
this. I mean, maybe I'm really lucky in that sense, but I never worked for or
even interviewed at a company that cared what their employees were doing in
their free time.

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corobo
Previous company was essentially "We own everything you create whether during
work or not" I think my contract was worded in a way that meant technically
speaking any _ideas_ I had while under their employment belong to them too.
I'm not sure how they'd have enforced it, but was unwilling to challenge it.

Major part of my reasoning to leave. I left with a fair bit of leverage due to
an unrelated matter so managed to secure all the rights to my side project on
the way out.

Current job - don't compete directly with us and don't let it get in the way
of your work and we're cool with whatever.

~~~
bsharitt
I had a job offer from a company with that kind of "Everything you create is
ours" clause in the contract(along with a pretty broad non-compete). I think a
bit part of it was a that it was a remote work position. When I pushed back
about it, the guy trying to hire me basically told me "don't worry about it,
I've seen it enforced", and I'm not even sure how legally sound the clauses
were, but I ended up not taking the job over it.

~~~
derekp7
If you really want the job, mention that you do community volunteer work and
that you want to make sure that other worthy causes aren't affected -- so you
want to send the contract to your lawyer, and have it hashed out between
lawyers. Then make sure your lawyer really knows what your goals are so that
they can get the wording changed.

Specifically, I'd accept wording that included "excludes personal project work
done 100% outside of a work context, unless such work is related to a direct
work assignment". But a lawyer would have to point out any loopholes in that
wording.

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anandkulkarni
At Crowdbotics you are required to be working on at least one side project,
either for fun or for profit, at all times. You own it.

~~~
cableshaft
Some people might not like that, but I think that's awesome. I wish more
companies operated like that.

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telebone_man
I won't copy paste the terms, but they say any employee can do what they like,
as long as it doesn't utilise the resources of the business (which are defined
as equipment, offices, money, time etc.).

And if it does, then the business operates a 'first-refusal' policy. In cases
where the business has decided to utilise the side-project, this is normally
combined with financial compensation in some form (a salary raise, a bonus,
something like that).

FYI, I'm in the UK (midlands). I think this is quite a liberal approach
compared to most. But it seems to motivate staff to think outside the box in
the interests of the business.

~~~
Swinx43
That is fantastic to hear! I am also in the UK and every single contract I
have signed was accompanied with clauses basically stating that the company
owns anything I create while I am employed by them. This includes anything
outside of work as well. I believe this is the standard terms for UK
contracts. I was lucky in getting my current employer to add an addendum to my
contract giving me certain exclusions to this clause, it was however a process
to get it past their legal department.

~~~
rosbrith
Mine (also UK) is similar to what you describe, minus your addendum. It makes
reference to agreeing that inventions (new software, I imagine) developed
during the course of my employment must be made available to the company for
its use. I've never known the company to call anyone out on this.

~~~
Swinx43
Yes that is true, I have never known anyone that was called out on this.
However I am sure if an invention becomes popular and really valuable that
some organisations, espcially big ones, would not hesitate to give it a try.

~~~
nmstoker
My UK contact has no IP terms but the employer added something into the
employee handbook claiming to own everything which was a problem for me as I
do a number of non-work projects outside work.

I had a discussion and got a clarification on the scope and we agreed that it
covered specified things with work applicability, so I'm satisfied now (will
start work on the best selling novel and string of number one hits right
away!).

It was important it wasn't just based on a vague ill-defined idea of "outside
work" because typically a portion of what is clearly work related IP I
generate doesn't happen in a formal work situation, yet I understand it as
work (and am fine with that) whilst equally there is plenty of non-work IP
that is just as clearly in no way work (as it doesn't relate to our line of
business).

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mattbgates
When we have downtime at work, I'm working on side projects. I would hope the
company would prefer me working on something than sitting there twittling my
thumbs.

Any thing I work on is only improving my knowledge for the company itself. I
don't think they have any policy that it is theirs. Though most of my work is
kept on the Internet and very rarely do I ever have the files I am working on
on the computer, and if they are, they are just mock files that have no
purpose other than UI.

I have heard of plenty of companies claiming to own your ideas, but unless you
directly stole something from your company, like their core code -- in which
case, a lot of Google's stuff is open source anyway, so really, how can they
claim to own your projects? And if thats the case, than what share of your own
idea do you get?

Anyways, unless the company wants to help you market and advertise and sell
your product, than they really have no say. But companies will do as they
please. They are certainly better off allowing people to be creative. There
are plenty of projects I work on that I'm sure my company has no interest in.
Would they want to claim something I wrote that encourages swearing and
cursing? Yeah.. probably not.

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martin_a
General rule for Germany is, that your employer must allow you to have a job
besides your main job.

This does probably not really fit to what we understand as "side projects" but
if you are making serious money and invest time in it, you´ll have to talk to
your employer.

Employers will most likely do not allow it, if it´s very time consuming (you
need to be fit your main job) or very related to your main job (say:
freelancing graphic design while working for a design agency).

I found that it really depends on the employer and there is no general rule.

~~~
fredm-de
That's actually wrong.

An employer can require you to inform him about side jobs but is legally not
allowed to prohibit you from taking a side job unless you work against his
interest (eg. negative impact on your performance or competing with your
employer).

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alberth
A must read in this topic. Give perspective on _why_ companies want to own
your side projects.

[https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2016/12/09/developers-side-
pr...](https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2016/12/09/developers-side-projects/)

TL;DR - companies don't want you to sue them in the future where you claim
copyright on their product.

~~~
andy_ppp
The whole of that has been totally debunked and it's also illegal in many
states.

I'm a contractor and I've been asked to sign some work I did over to the
company I work for; it's very very clear what "The Software" is in the
contract that my client was paying for, why make it so complicated?

"Your game designer works for a year and invents 7 games. At the end of the
year, she sues you, claiming that she owns 4 of them, because those particular
games were invented between 5pm and 9am, when she wasn’t on duty."

You have the option to specify clearly and record what you paid the games
developer for; it's on you as an employer to show this and it's a ridiculous,
straw man example. If you cannot prove that the developer did this work solely
for you in exchange for salary then maybe you don't deserve to own these
games.

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crypto5
> Otherwise, Google owns any IP created while you're at the company.

Not necessary in California: Any provision in an employment agreement which
provides that an employee shall assign, or offer to assign, any of his or her
rights in an invention to his or her employer shall not apply to an invention
that the employee developed entirely on his or her own time without using the
employer s equipment, supplies, facilities, or trade secret information.
[http://law.justia.com/codes/california/2011/lab/division-3/2...](http://law.justia.com/codes/california/2011/lab/division-3/2870-2872/2870)

There are exceptions of course, major one: you have not compete with your
employer.

~~~
BillyOblivion
There's very little space in the "NOT competing with Google" set.

~~~
cidibe
Games, luckily for me

------
Artlav
Huh. Everywhere i worked, the rules were along the lines of "you can do
whatever you want as long as the goals/deadlines are met".

A company taking copyright of personal projects of it's employees is unheard
of around here (Russia).

I've actually encountered this kind of clause in a contract for working as a
subcontractor for an american company (they own rights to everything i made
during the contract), but when i pointed it out as unacceptable it was removed
without any questions (before signing).

So this feels like USA-specific and predatory type of a clause, at least from
my perspective.

~~~
BillyOblivion
It's not really predatory, or at least not in intent (you always have
exceptions).

The basic rule of thumb when seeing stupid clauses like this is 'Someone did
something shift, a lawsuit happened and the words "I didn't know I couldn't"
came out of the defendant's mouth and that cost/almost cost the plaintiff the
case. So now they make it overbroad so you can't claim you didn't know'.

There have been _several_ cases over the years--one of which got several cow-
orkers of mine fired--where the "side project" turned into a real company and
it turned out to either be based on the companies source code, or created by
looking at the companies source code (in one case a competing product, in
another case a complementary product).

In some ways it's an "anti-predatory" clause.

I've mostly been subject to it at much larger companies and defense
contractors.

It's also something that you can usually get a 'waiver' (or whatever your
company calls it) for. Go to your boss, or whomever and get them to put in
writing that "Yeah, we know about this, and it's ok with us".

------
rishabhd
Varies from organization to organization.

The current place I work has a policy that they own stuff which I create on my
business machine and I am free to pursue interests which do not cause a
potential conflict of interest or competition.

In my previous organization, it was a simple "we own your ass, home or
otherwise and don't you dare engage in a side project without informing us" .

------
kentt
At mine you can work on your own project on your company provided computer.
You own the IP. I think it has gone well for everyone.

------
justinhj
The last few jobs I've worked have had the policy that they own everything by
default but you can declare in writing past and new side projects and ideas to
exclude. I think this is a reasonable balance between freedom for me and
securing the company interests

~~~
alok-g
1\. They would own everything by default from the point you join the company.
Even if you do not declare past projects in the form, they cannot own it if
you can prove that those were past projects from before you joined. Declaring
just makes things easier. One company asked me for proof of prior existence of
these projects; their proposal was to keep my pre-existing source code in an
immutable vault that both parties could access in case of a lawsuit, just
before I join the company.

2\. "New" side projects may not be covered by such declarations, which are
about the past. So if you want to continue some side projects, you should read
the language of the agreement carefully, and/or, reach an agreement in writing
with them that you are working on the said side projects and this is OK with
them.

------
derekp7
A related question -- for companies that assert copyright over all your work
done on personal time -- do you typically receive this prior to your start
date (along with the job offer letter), or is it something that you have to
sign after starting?

~~~
alok-g
You are usually made to sign those agreements within a few days of joining.
Sometimes you can get a copy ahead of the time, especially if you ask. Offer
letters generally state that the offer is subject to your acceptance of these
agreements (that you would later sign).

------
simon1573
I work at as an IT consultant (developer) and the general policy seems to be
that everything that you develop using their hardware belongs to the company.
There are no explicit rules regarding side-projects on your own time and
hardware though.

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ericclemmons
Outside of work hours, as long as it doesn't compete it's yours.

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Clownshoesms
Most of my contracts have been: everything to do is ours, if it's on company
computers. Some have snuck in clauses like "Everything you do is ours", but 0%
of them would work in a court of law.

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devops_monkey
When I left a previous employer, their legal department sent me a certified
letter sternly stating that any "thought" or "idea" I had during my employment
was their property.

------
bsvalley
Why are we seeing all these questions involving "Google" on "Ask HN" lately?

In most of the big companies is as you've described.

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tmaly
I had to get permission from the founder for any outside business, even side
projects.

~~~
Clownshoesms
That's crazy town to me. Have you had a frank discussion about that with him?
i.e. your own personal time, is your own.

~~~
BillyOblivion
Think about it from the Founder point of view. Very few startups are 8x5. Most
expect you to put in a few extra hours, be on call, etc. By letting them know
if you've got a side project you plan on _dedicating_ yourself to you are
taking those hours out of that pool.

If it's just for an Open Source project, that that's one thing, but if you're
also working 10 or 20 hours a week with another company then they (a) need to
know that they have to account for that in scheduling and expectations and (b)
want to know that you're not working for a competitor and passing inside
information.

I had one guy on my team who was working 16 to 24 hours a week at another job,
which meant that needed to be careful how I scheduled him (because at the time
we didn't have enough work to schedule everyone full time. If we had, well
then he'd have to sort that out).

