
My experience hiring a developer on Elance to build my first iPhone app - naren87
http://thenextweb.com/entrepreneur/2013/11/03/hired-developer-elance-build-first-iphone-app-experience/
======
jawngee
This enrages me. I feel horrible for the developer.

First, my day rate as a professional full-time iOS dev is higher than what he
paid for the entire project. Granted, I've been writing software for almost 20
years now, the last six strictly Cocoa and iOS, and I live in NYC. But even
then, all I can tell him is that he got what he paid for.

Second, if a client is going to withhold final payment based on Apple
acceptance, there is no way I would work for them. Specially for some dumb app
like this.

But the part that really irks me is the last bit about "doing it yourself next
time". Good luck with that. I would love to be around the moment you have the
epiphany about how much you got for how little you spent and what an asshole
you are about whining about it.

~~~
paulftw
> Second, if a client is going to withhold final payment based on Apple
> acceptance, there is no way I would work for them

It sounds from the article that payment terms were agreed upon before
commencement of the work. Why did developer accept that contract if he thought
it was wrong or unfair? Walk away / ask to change that bit / extra payment,
etc. But renegotiating payment schedule half way through the project, really?
That's poor work ethics.

And, BTW, I don't think it's a dumb app - it is actually quite smart, main
risk was apple finding technical issues like "you are using wrong api / it
crashes on iphone 3g". Customer wanted protection against issues like that.

Rephrase it in a way "you build app, I pay you. If you help me get it approved
I give you $200 more". What is wrong with that?

~~~
ojbyrne
Everything in this article is from the writers perspective. The developer may
have done all the things you said, informally, but the article writer didn't
bother to mention them. Perhaps he should have gotten a lawyer, and gotten an
iron clad contract, but that itself would have cost more then the total amount
he was going to be paid.

~~~
cpayne
The project budget was $800. How much do you think a lawyer would cost? I
guess you could get one cheaper on Elance...

------
Iftheshoefits
Once the author "learns to do it [him]self," maybe he'll appreciate how
complicated even "simple" iOS apps are to develop, and maybe he'll realize his
expectations were a bit unreasonable.

Also, this author's post is exactly why I will never ever work on Elance
again. The clients have expectations far out of line with what they're willing
to pay.

~~~
rickyc091
I feel like that's the case with doing consultant work in general.

~~~
mkramlich
it's more pronounced with clients that are less sophisticated, smaller, more
mom-and-pop, "I had this great idea!!!! but a very small budget" types. avoid
them, and you'll do better

~~~
ryandoom
Agreed. Consulting and working with individuals to develop their 'baby' is
extremely difficult. Majority of the time their expectation is that coding is
fancy typing and changes take seconds not hours.

As a developer I would suggest building in a reasonable monthly fee for X
months for support. It's unrealistic to assume apps are going to meet
customers expectations 100% of the time. Discussing this and setting a budget
for after 'completion' helps a ton.

The poster and most individuals expect to pay a one time fee and start making
tons of money on their idea without reinvestment.

As developers we need to help educate clients. But, individuals are hard, we
never do it unless they are well funded. Not just for their app but for their
marketing and overall initiatives.

~~~
mkramlich
> Majority of the time their expectation is that coding is fancy typing and
> changes take seconds not hours.

THIS. spoken like from direct experience. that's a definite pattern I've seen
with some kinds of clients. "How long will it take for you to type up these
features?" They have no clue as to how complex software is, all the moving
parts, the interactions, the hidden bugs and quirks, lurking complications,
constraints, trade-offs, under-documented or mis-documented behaviors, etc.

------
kclay
One thing I have learned about using Elance and other bidding type sites from
time to time with work is low,is that most project posters determine the bid
solely based on price. Now I understand this but, if you do that then you run
into this type of game with contractors.

Most non-developer don't understand when someone that is well qualified to
handle your project they will make sure there is enough conversations before
hand to make sure that all specs and milestones( yes I know you can't know all
but just for argument's sake) are fully understood by both parties.

The first red flag should of been an iOS app for $800. I don't do iOS
development but I for sure you can't get decent developer for $800.

Red flag #2 was when the client felt indebted to the developer for doing a
fix. To me it looks like he is just trying to nickel and dime for everything
little change. Maybe that how some people work but from my personal experience
as a developer and from contracting from sites like these I've never had an
good contractor do this, now that's not to say I haven't had this happen, I
have.

Last one was when he said he would hold the sources until a 5 star review,
this made me laugh. Now I can see for a review, in some eyes a project isn't
complete until a review about one's work has been done, so I can understand
that. But denying source until he gets a 5 star that's just absurd. If it was
me I would of first made sure all of this convo happened in Elance workroom
and then get Elance into it (yeah it would take longer for them to resolve but
he would get his files) and then right a lengthy review for this developer to
make sure that no one else has this problem.

I guess that's just what you have to deal with when using bidding sites. I'm
glad he go his app approved but the old saying still stands:

You get what you pay for

~~~
macspoofing
> To me it looks like he is just trying to nickel and dime for everything
> little change.

For $800 you bet your ass the developer will nickel-and-dime. After all, he
was nickel-and-dimed.

~~~
eli
By whom? The system? The developer bears at least a little responsibility for
submitting a bid that is too low to cover successfully completing the project.

~~~
macspoofing
>The developer bears at least a little responsibility for submitting a bid
that is too low to cover successfully completing the project.

I didn't say he doesn't.

The guy talked the developer down to an $800 fee, and then his interpretation
of the agreement was the developer should take his feedback into account after
the code was submitted to him ("I figured some graphics changes would be OK.
Basically, the overlay graphics are slightly different. Same functionality").
That's definitely a self-serving interpretation. Clearly the dev does not want
to do anything more than he absolutely needs to do. For that amount of money,
he wants to knock-out an app in minimal time and move on.

So I'm saying they both nickel-and-dimed each other. I'm not judging, but
that's what happened, and I have slightly more empathy for the developer in
this case.

~~~
eli
Sure, fair enough, but roughly zero projects are going to succeed with that
sort of minimal approach. It almost guarantees the client will have to pay for
additional work.

I was only being slightly facetious, though -- the system really does suck and
I think deserves most of the blame.

------
jmduke
I'd hesitate to blame the author for the issues that arose with the project,
as the larger issues lie with Elance (et al)'s feedback mechanism. It should
be reasonable to assume that someone with, say, a 4.8/5 rating is a sterling
developer, but instead feedback gets perverted into a form of currency to be
exploited as opposed to a canonical source of information -- just like what
happened with eBay.

I think a possible solution for this issue would be to include third-party
anonymous auditing: get someone with domain expertise to review the spec, the
final product, and communications (without being given the personal details of
the two other parties, of course) and give an honest rating of both sides.
Obviously, this has scaling issues, but I think a decent amount of people
would be willing to pay a premium for a better value proxy.

~~~
vassvdm
I think you're on to something. Ratings on sites like Elance are broken.
Clients feel compelled to give 5 star feedback to freelancers, sometimes just
to get them off their back. This basically means that you can't look at a
reputation score to tell you how good the freelancer actually is. I like the
idea of a third-party anonymous person doing an audit. That person would need
to have access to all the relevant files though, and have the right skills to
judge the freelancer's work. Even the prospect of being audited could be a
deterrent to the kind of behavior we saw in this case, which means that
randomly auditing one out of every x gigs could be enough.

~~~
chii
Real life jobs/recruiting solves this problem via references.

Why isn't this something elance can provide? You can get an anonymized contact
info for previous clients of the dev. You can ping them for some questions
etc.

~~~
richiepear
Good idea - right now, the best proxy for this is to look at the % of clients
who re-hire and their comments. While I agree that 5 star systems across the
Internet are inflated, I always use rehire % and really scour the comments
when hiring on Elance.

------
trevmckendrick
I've worked with a _lot_ of Elancers in a variety of tasks.

The key to managing them is setting clear expectations upfront and then
sticking to them.

As soon as you release that first payment despite the milestone not being 100%
finished you've given them permission to ignore all other deadlines.

What's worked best for me is to make 50% of the contract payable after the app
has been approved by Apple, but funding the entire project up front. That way
the Elancer knows you're serious about payment, but you don't "lose" any money
until the app is actually in the App Store.

~~~
mkramlich
the root problem is fixed scope/price contracts. almost always one party or
another, or a mix of both, ends up getting screwed. I prefer to pay-for-time,
then both sides evaluate results/experience continually, with each side able
to "fire fast" or "up the anty" if/when that party decides.

~~~
chii
pay for time is just as "bad" to the client as fixed cost for the dev. The
root problem isn't with the way the payment is made, but with the way one
party's expectation does not match reality (whether it's the dev's or the
client's).

Fix that, and any payment model will work.

~~~
mkramlich
I agree with you that that model can go bad too.

I disagree with you on both models being equally bad, or prone to going bad at
the same statistically rate. In my experience, as well as the reported
experience of many senior programmers/consultants/freelancers/ISV's I trust,
the pay-for-time (honestly worked, of course) is the model that's the least
likely to explode on either party. And, surprise surprise, that's also closer
to how the traditional direct employment (FT, PT, salary, wage, whatever)
model also works. And in general terms, both sides always have the "escape
hatch" of being able to fire the other party (speaking in general, with the
caveat of arbitrary laws per jurisdiction, blah blah blah.) But in general, if
one party isn't happy, they can vote with their feet. That's always true in
life, in the general case.

But paying for hours/days means the worker is paid in proportion to how much
work is involved, whether planned or surprises along the way. And the pay-per-
time rate allows the worker to set a value that reflects the quality of his
work, his productivity, or his rarity in the marketplace, or total demand for
his time, etc. Win and win.

Fixed price, fixed scope is like... an unstable equilibrium. Trying to balance
a chainsaw on your pinky finger. It can work out just fine. But that's not the
way to bet, and to be avoided if you'd like to retain all your body parts.

------
gexla
I don't care where you live in this world. The cost of living is going up
everywhere. If you pick up a cheap developer, expect the person is going to be
hitting you up for payments regularly. At this rate, the person can't really
save to get ahead, he is likely struggling from one payment to the next.
Getting screwed over would probably be devastating to him, though I imagine he
was more concerned about quick payments than getting screwed over. If you have
someone doing cheap work and doing well, keep the payments flowing. If you are
happy, then make the developer happy as well.

~~~
mkramlich
> If you have someone doing cheap work and doing well, keep the payments
> flowing. If you are happy, then make the developer happy as well.

THIS

x 10

------
rubiquity
I feel like sites like Elance just foster bad client-developer relationships
from the get go. With everything being so prix fixe it sets aside the #1
attribute of software development - uncertainty.

From reading this post it sounds like everything was honki-dori until the
client came back with changes. Changes equate to more development which
equates to more money. Clients need to understand the uncertain parts of
software development better and paying up front sites like Elance and others
just don't support that.

------
cpayne
There's a reason lawyers (generally) don't do fixed price. Or if they do, you
are going to pay more for time and materials.

I see articles all the time and just wonder, what did you expect?

You can add whatever clauses you like (won't pay until xyz etc) but honestly-

1\. There's no repeat business. They know your $800 is your entire budget. 2\.
I've been hassled before for a 5 star rating. The author has already spent
75%. It's worth the risk of holding the source code hostage.

If you were a freelancer, would you do any different?

------
ryanackley
One thing the author mentions is he asked the developer _for a few small
graphical changes_.

As a freelance developer, this is what we call changing the requirements. In
layman's terms, the author is re-negotiating what he wants done. It's accepted
practice that this means the developer can renegotiate the money.

~~~
fourstar
Have done freelance in the past. Can confirm. Author blew it.

------
Untit1ed
I can see why he's annoyed, but at the end of the day he's got a reasonably
well-reviewed app for the cost of $800 and a few hours arguing over email...
still a pretty good deal.

------
amrit_b
I did freelancing till 2010. And I will say its 100% your mistake. But I
believe now you know how it works. Someone said its the Elance model problem
and blah blah. When you assign the project to any developer, the payment, the
model doesn't matter. You both agreed to money, deadline, product, etc. What
you need to do is make real short milestones and precise task list. Which
includes bug fixing, meeting schedules, and of-course delivery of source-code
(I prefer a private Git repo with bitbucket or something similar) and hosting
to app store. Both should exactly know what needed to be developed and on what
date & time. It should go like this:

Milestone 1 ($50 / 2hours / 4th Nov 2013 - 10AM delivery): \- Git init \-
splash screen # Your task (1 hr) -> test - release $50 as a go ahead

Milestone 2 ($50 / 2hours / 4th Nov 2013 - 10AM delivery) \- Screen 1 - form
submit \- Backend - process form # Your task (1 hr) -> test - release $50 as a
go ahead ......... You should also include closing of project, giving reviews
and source code details in the milestones.

You are not hiring an agency whom you know and who won't mess up (btw, even
big agencies mess up). You are hiring a guy whom you have never seen/met. And
you just paying $800 for an iPhone app! What you need to do is just tighten up
the milestones! If he have good reviews - he definitely have the capability to
do the job.

Its good to learn app development (also helps to check developer's source) -
but there's nothing to be afraid of elance or freenalcer.com. You just need to
use the right strategy. The app idea is already in your mind. Spend 2-3 days
to plan the project management and make a list of tasks. Then you are all set!

And congratulations for your app!

~~~
dsuth
So basically you have to micro-manage the project in extreme detail, which: a)
takes up a lot of your time; and b) requires in-depth knowledge of programming
tasks.

That doesn't strike me as a very useful arrangement. If the guy had that kind
of time and knowledge in the first place, why wouldn't he just build it
himself?

~~~
ProblemFactory
I occasionally do freelance mobile app & data analysis work, and also
subcontract some of the work to other freelancers. The ability to write great
specs and milestones (micro-managing) is _the_ biggest cost differentiator in
commissioning work.

• If you know precisely what you want (to pixel-perfect photoshop mockups of
every screen and interaction), you can hire anyone on Elance for $10/hour and
get a good result.

• If you know mostly what you want - a written spec with some gaps - you need
to hire a skilled, local developer for 50-100$/hour who will sit down with you
to describe the relative complexity of features, make technical decisions, and
offer suggestions on what to cut out to reduce cost.

• If you only have a vague vision, you need a huge budget, because you are
hiring an UX designer, graphical designer, developer and a business advisor,
and paying for their time spent on changes after seeing prototype demos.

The more you "micro-manage", the cheaper developers you can hire (and still
get an acceptable result), and the less time you need to budget for changes.
For a $800 project, there is no other way to make it work.

------
logn
An app for Santa to track gifts and children's associated good deeds to earn
them. And this guy is quibbling over being asked to leave a developer a 5-star
review and $800. Sure, you shouldn't hassle clients for good reviews, but
maybe you also shouldn't expect people half way around the world to have
perfect business etiquette. Besides, every time I go to a store or call a
customer service line, plenty of Americans ask me to fill out a review and
also often ask if I'm totally happy with their service. This isn't much
different.

~~~
ye
What if he doesn't want to leave a 5-star review?

He paid for the project, which included the source code. The source code needs
to be delivered.

~~~
logn
If the client refused to leave a 5-star review, I'd speculate the developer
would improve the project such that he would get a 5-star review. I think it's
his way of saying, "we're not done until you're totally satisfied". Of course,
the developer went about it in a rude way, but that's exactly what you can
expect hiring someone from a totally different culture than ours whom you've
never met.

Basically this entrepreneur is complaining that being an engineering manager
isn't 100% easy. And then he concludes by saying that being an engineer is
totally do-able and probably easier than managing. lol

~~~
ye
I wouldn't leave a 5-star review simply because the developer requested to get
paid earlier than the agreed upon schedule.

If he doesn't honor what he agreed to, he doesn't deserve 5 stars.

------
EGF
My starting conversation for someone looking for outside help on a project is
always; Price, Quality, Time - pick two. This helps guide the conversation as
there is usually some limiting factor to the "job" whether its budget, when
they need it, or how good the quality has to be.

~~~
rpwilcox
> Price, Quality, Time

Please don't use those terms. There are better ones: Price, Scope (size) and
Time.

The problem with the phrasing "Price, Quality, Time" is that nobody wants to
sacrifice on quality. Everyone wants a app that doesn't crash -- the client,
the end users, and the developer. Yes, yes, technical debt is a quality
concern, but as long as the app runs the client doesn't care _in the moment_
that there's copy/pasted code everywhere and future changes will be
"interesting". It's hard to sell "but if I take an extra half day to make this
change future improvements will be easier", at least not in tight projects.

But Scope, scope can start negotiation with clients. "Ok, you do know this new
control you want will probably take something like 10 hours to write, do you
really want it or can you make do with a default one?"

If a client drops a fixed bid project on me with a dictated time deadline,
sure as anything I'm going to take control of the scope side of the project
triangle.

~~~
ScottWhigham
Good post. The only quibble I could have is that almost everyone understands
what "Quality" is yet it requires education and experience to understand
"Scope". Maybe that's a conversation/education you have with prospective
clients though.

~~~
rpwilcox
> The only quibble I could have is that almost everyone understands what
> "Quality" is yet it requires education and experience to understand "Scope"

I would say that's a feature, not a bug ;)

Everyone "knows" what quality is so nobody wants to cut it. The client expects
a deliverable with a (mostly) bug free deliverable, and the developer expects
to be able to try to create a codebase with as little technical debt as
possible.

There are certainly situations where quality is cut (technical debt that you
might avoid if you had more time, the customer deciding to skip beta testing),
but as a developer I can't say, "You want this cheap and tomorrow, so we as a
team are going to ship a buggy app". Because the first thing the client does
when they give the app like that a spin? Come back to the developer with a bug
list a mile long and say the current quality is unacceptable.

So then it's not the project management triangle of, "You take two sides, I'll
take one". ;)

But if, as a developer, I say, "You want this cheap, and tomorrow, which means
this thing needs to have _two_ of these things you want, not all 10. Help me
choose the most important things here." Which is a hard conversation (nobody
wants to kill their darlings) but you can quantify scope (estimate and
prioritize the work).

We certainly know a lot about quality from Deming, Juran, and Pirsig, but the
margin is too small, and the night too short, to put this conversation in that
scope.

------
pyalot2
Learning to do it yourself is the best investment you can make.

However, don't loose sight of the fact that for serious software development
you'll need to hire somebody if you're not a professional programmer (i.e.
somebody who writes code for a living, every day, for the last couple of
years).

------
6d0debc071
Specs being more or less fixed is fairly standard for any creative industry.
Otherwise you end up doing many multiples of the work you originally signed on
for for people who are continually changing their mind or having one extra
little thing. You wouldn't say to a builder who came to your house to fix the
roof "Oh, and while you're up there, the chimney needs doing." And not expect
to pay for it.

How you handle that varies, I don't work on a fixed fee - I give estimates but
it costs what it costs, so in many ways it's easier for me. Still, I give
people three goes to change their minds about the graphical assets and
placement of interface elements, within the specs we've worked out of course -
and then if they want to change it we work something new out or we go ahead
with one of the prototypes they like; I'm not going to be messed around by
someone who can't make up their mind, there are other clients. The way I look
at it my initial contract is to make up to three rough versions of the thing
for them - and if we're working well together we take it from there, or if
we're not we walk away from the thing.

#

Other points -

Hired someone who may have had flawed English skills, (from reading the back
and forth)

Paid $800 and expected top notch service.

Unclear milestones.

Hired someone in a dramatically different time zone (always a bit of a pain.)

------
aeberbach
"I should learn how to do it myself."

That's an excellent idea. You'll still hire a developer next time of course,
but you'll know exactly why you are doing it and you'll appreciate the result
a little bit more.

Sure the demand for a 5-star review was a little underhanded but what do you
expect when you are bottom feeding like that? $800 for any app is way below
bargain basement.

------
AlexeyBrin
There was once a website were you, as a buyer, were assured of having complete
rights over the source code and the binary of an application for which you
hired a developer. Also, the developer was assured the money for the
application are in an escrow account once the project was awarded and he will
be paid if he can deliver in time. This site was RentACoder, later renamed
vWorker. There was no way for a coder to be able to keep the source code
hostage until a 5 star review was given or for the buyer to delay the payment.

Today, vWorker doesn't exist anymore, it was bought by Freelancer. On
Freelancer there is no guarantee that you will get your final product (as a
buyer) or that you will be paid (as a coder). Actually, a buyer can post a
project, pay you for an application, get the application and than request a
charge back from the credit card company :). Freelancer has no inclination to
protect the buyer or the coder.

~~~
ricardobeat
It's been a while since I visited elance, but I think that's exactly how it is
supposed to work. Freelancer.com is a weird experiment in gamification, feels
like a scam from the start.

------
woodylondon
This was an interesting read, and had very similar experiences.

My current problem is an IOS developer who I have used on 2 projects without
issue. I then started a new project 3 months ago which should have taken 2-3
weeks max. So far his mother, son have both died. He lost his house. His
computer broke, and then another one. Finally his son died again!? Still
nothing has been sent, and he has had 50% of the money.

I suspect the problem is that he has taken on too much work. I have paid him
well in the past, been fair with spec changes etc. He saw me an easy touch to
screw over on the 3rd project. No plans to work with him again. It's not the
money that pisses me off, its the wasted time!

~~~
mkramlich
Without knowing the specifics or the absolute truth about the situation on his
side, I can say it's possible those things really did happen. And consider
that in the alternative scenario where you had to have him on payroll as a
FT/direct employee, you'd be paying regular paychecks + benefits to him this
entire time. You're lucky to have the option of engaging someone only as a
temporary "disposable" contractor. And for every scenario where the client
appears to have been "screwed" by the developer, I guarantee you the reverse
scenario has happened. Possibly even with that same guy, with the shoe on the
other foot. It's truly a jungle out there.

------
krrishd
Things like this about some developers just piss me off. I'm a freelancer, and
really like the idea of a platform like Elance that could easily connect me to
clients, but all the good clients stay away becuase of people like that.

~~~
mkramlich
but the reverse is also true. many/most good developers stay away from it
_because_ of the bad/cheapskate clients that are rife there. "I have a great
idea that will make me millions!!! just need a developer. oh but my budget is
tiny, so sorry! and add this and this and this and I need it by next Tuesday."

case of a market-for-lemons, plus race-to-bottom

~~~
chii
The client, in that case, should've just had a profit sharing offer, instead
of paying a measly some, for the off chance that the app takes off (thus
screwing the dev). If the great idea is gonna make millions (for real), the
dev would not hesitate to accept the profit sharing option.

~~~
mkramlich
agreed that's more fair, if the client can only offer low pay, they need to at
least give them a piece of the potential equity upside. though in reality, in
the general case, all other things being equal, that equity share will
probably be worthless. plus in this day and age it's never been easier for a
developer to purse a wide range of business venture ideas, and retain full
ownership and equity upside. "Gee, I can work on your Big Idea for small pay
and 1-10% equity, or, I can work for somebody else for Big Pay and,
disconnected from that, either on the side or afterward (during "bench time"
or sabbaticals) work on my own thing for ~100% equity." Choices, choices.

------
pekk
What a scam. If Apple doesn't like your project, you don't have to pay the
developer. No risk for you.

------
cmbaus
I've outsourced some development on oDesk, and it worked out ok. I even hired
one of the developers full-time for a different project.

What I did was start with a small project, and verify the developer's work.
This is much easier to do if you are technical.

If you are non-technical, I think these sites are worthless. There is no way
to know what you are getting.

Edit: I should say they are worthless for technical work. I've also hired a
non-technical assistant who was in the US and that worked out great, and I'm
sure other non-technical people could do the same.

------
mamcx
This kind of sites have the problem (big one IMHO) that the projects
descriptions are almost useless as specs, and a lot of developers don't know
how build that from the customers (and rarely a customer know what to say, ask
or give). I wish that when a customer send a project, somebody review it and
check if the assumptions of the customer are on line with reality, or can do
some consulting to properly scope the projects before div in.

Probably having projects manager in the side (not in the middle!)?

------
avalaunch
Prior to teaching myself to program I hired off of Elance and what I remember
most is how helpless I felt. I had no way to verify that the code the client
wrote was any good. I worried that I'd pay the first 3 of 4 milestones and
then the developer would flake out on me because the last milestone would take
10x as long as the first 3 combined. Or I'd pay all 4 milestones but have no
way of noticing huge bugs that would surface later on. I had no idea what was
technically challenging and what was simple. All I really wanted was assurance
that the money I was spending wasn't being wasted.

A lot of people are getting upset with the client for making the "unreasonable
demand" of not paying for the app until 10 days after acceptance into the app
store. But that's what the client wanted and more importantly that's what they
both agreed to. That's what matters most to me. If you agree to a condition
you later regret agreeing to, suck it up and consider it a lesson learned.
Don't hold hostage the client's deliverables. That's just wrong.

In any case, as a freelancer, if a client presented me with that particular
milestone requirement, I'd see it as an opportunity and price it in. I'm in a
much better position than most clients to determine the likelihood that their
app gets approved. I'd research the idea, calculate the risk of it being
rejected, add a premium, and adjust my quote accordingly. I'd probably present
the client with 2 bids, one where I shoulder the risk and the other where he
does.

I wonder if there's a business to be had there - providing a sort of insurance
against apps being rejected from the apple store.

For those wondering, I paid 8k for my web app (over 10 years ago) only to
later realize that the core functionality was faked.

------
frank_boyd
> really make me wonder how much faith we can put in the reviews on Elance

Pretty much the same faith we can put in LinkedIn recommendations, I suppose.

------
saihan-tal
After skimming through all comments, I decided to humbly post my blog a while
ago about hiring offshore team on Elance to develop my first iPad app, because
it is a journey along which I learned a lot and derived pleasure.
[https://medium.com/on-startups/bad992e31ab6](https://medium.com/on-
startups/bad992e31ab6)

------
aferreira
What's that old saying? You get what you pay for. What did you expect for
$800?

"Oh but it's a simple app" \- Well, so is the electrical grid! I delivers
power to your house, simple right? Oh wait. NOPE.

Additionally, I do agree that once you've accepted to pay the final fees once
development ends, you should pay them then and not when the app is 'accepted
onto app store and 10 days have passed so users can report bugs'. What on
earth were you thinking? That's not the developer's problem. That's _YOUR_
problem.

I find it nice that he even offered to fix any bugs found on the review
process or after the store's release, most developers could charge you extra
for this.

Please get this right once and for all: You pay consultants / freelancers a
combination of time spent + expertise. Never for a finished product.

~~~
EpicEng
I agree with you, but this is a bit much:

 _" Oh but it's a simple app" \- Well, so is the electrical grid! I delivers
power to your house, simple right? Oh wait. NOPE._

Really? Comparing a trivial iOS app to the electrical infrastructure, a huge
engineering task (sorry, Santa's List iOS isn't engineering). Please.

~~~
aferreira
Hey I can blow things out of proportion and create unreasonable expectations
just like the author does :)

~~~
EpicEng
...fair enough.

------
benmorris
I'm not really surprised to read this synopsis of hiring on Elance. I've done
a lot of hiring on there, but have found out you can leave no room for
guessing. No matter what you want done needs to be speced out meticulously and
attached to the project.

It has been said, but you absolutely get what you pay for. Again, for the
price this sort of nagging for payouts of pretty typical I've found also,
especially for low paying jobs.

I must say contrary to the author I would be leaving a negative review for
this developer. There is no excuse to hold the source code hostage for a 5
star review. Tacky and unprofessional

------
fit2rule
Whats missing from this conversation: An ELance Human Being.

The third party would have made all the difference in the world, moderating
this conversation. The two parties were clearly working against each other -
either wanting too much for so little, or wanting too much for more work,
either way: capitalistic exploitation is relatively easy to detect, and
offends the newbies.

I tend to think the developer was kind of a punk, though I compel with _all_
the reasons given for wanting more $cash.

------
gameguy43
I was hoping this would happen when I read the comments on this post on
/r/entrepreneur. Compare the comments there and the comments here. Fascinating
case study:
[http://www.reddit.com/r/Entrepreneur/comments/1pp2bg/i_hired...](http://www.reddit.com/r/Entrepreneur/comments/1pp2bg/i_hired_a_developer_in_china_via_elance_to_build/)

------
JoseVigil
Mike experience did not look that bad after all, ultimately with some patience
on his side he has an app up on the store. Either on the side of the client or
on the developer there is a very hard work to do in order to accomplish a
simple app. I think Mike underestimates the challenge and I wish him good luck
on the development side, a new trip is waiting for him.

------
joshuaellinger
I was considering trying Elance until I read this.

Not I am thinking I cannot afford it because of the demand it would place on
my time to manage and because I can't trust that a 5 star rating correlates
with quality.

Sheesh... I wouldn't have been willing to have that argument for $800 much
less write any code.

------
scottydelta
But it would be very unwise to consider all the developers to be same just
because of a bad experience. I have worked as a freelancer on elance and I
have never asked for a 5-star on review or for money upfront.

~~~
jawngee
> or for money upfront

You must not be doing this for very long. I don't work with clients who don't
pay 50% upfront for fixed fee projects. And those types of projects I try to
avoid.

~~~
scottydelta
but isnt 50% upfront too much? If I were a client, I would never pay 50%
upfront because what If the developer is not capable of delivering the
product.

~~~
collyw
If I were a developer why would I spend a number of hours developing,m not
knowing if the client would pay?

------
sneak
The author should have given him a one-star review for holding the source
hostage for the review. Now how will others know this guy is an unprofessional
dirtbag?

~~~
billmalarky
I'm a bit torn here since I feel like a good review was part of the expected
"payment" to the developer (reading in between the lines suggests he accepted
a lower payment in exchange for a good review).

Is it against the site TOS and sketchy? Yes. But then the author is just as
responsible as the developer for agreeing to such an arrangement. But it
becomes understandable that the developer would withhold the product if he had
not yet been "paid" in full.

------
shearnie
Would setting up a version control repository for the developer that you can
access avoid the problem being held at ransom for the five star review?

~~~
sneak
The output from all devs (on sane projects) is github.

A better solution would be to not falsify five star reviews when people act
unprofessionally, so the ratings system can ACTUALLY WORK.

------
mkramlich
> I had virtually zero budget

at this moment I strongly suspected that I knew how it would turn out

> and since it was already late

and this made it a slam dunk

other tells (statistically speaking):

\-- the "I had this great idea!!! just needed a developer" factor

\-- looking for programmers on Elance/Guru, etc.

~~~
georgiecasey
> > I had virtually zero budget

> at this moment I strongly suspected that I knew how it would turn out

I was sure the app would never get as far as the app store. but it did, and
all for $800. he got very lucky.

------
rfnslyr
There should really be a website where each worker has been interviewed by
some sort of staff, where bad reviews are taken seriously and resolved. Not a
willy nilly battlefield of near scammers.

~~~
tejay
GroupTalent ([http://grouptalent.com](http://grouptalent.com)) maintains some
personal checks on their talent pool. Not sure if they'd be into smaller
applications like OP's, though.

~~~
mamcx
Something like this for remote work exist?

