

Social Norms and Gendered Expectations - webology
https://kateheddleston.com/blog/social-norms-and-gendered-expectations

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A_COMPUTER
The only thing I disagree with here is the idea that assertiveness is uniquely
or predominately associated with white men, and that it's a problem to be
solved (that's how I read her, anyway.) To me, there are two problems to be
solved here, the first is that women are uniquely punished for being
assertive; the second is that, in my opinion, you need a mix of assertive and
relatively unassertive people in your organization to accomplish the most, but
being assertive will naturally get you more attention, money, etc, which can
create an imbalance in staff rewards. So I would not say that the problem is
assertiveness in any way whatsoever (insofar as you are not being abusive eg
interrupting) but of mediating the two groups and assigning appropriate
compensation for individual staffers' abilities.

I initially had a slightly defensive impression about the article, but I ended
up agreeing with it.

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asgard1024
I hate to say this, but she will just have to get over it. People have biases,
and are not entirely rational (in fact, if anything, we are machines built to
rationalize to other people what we deserve).

The article goes to the ridiculous area, which is trending in the U.S.: Taking
on the impossible task to train people to avoid these "unconscious" biases. It
will a be a lot wasted effort, for ultimately impossible goal.

Let's assume there is a surgical procedure that lets you get of your biases.
Would you do it? Are you going to require people to undergo the procedure? At
some point, we just have to accept the biases, because the cost to get rid of
them is too high.

And even if I would accept her solution, one of the big biases is that we
judge similar faces to our own more positively. How are we ever going to get
rid of that bias? For a given minority, you can perhaps consciously think, "Am
I here biased?". But for person which looks differently than you? How can you
even know you are biased?

Finally, I would like to warn, attempts to correct bias may create more bias,
overshadowing any bias that was originally there. For instance, if you have
positive discrimination, people may think that minorities have a leg up thanks
to it, and may judge them more harshly.

I don't think any amount of anti-bias training will change people's biases.
What does change them is role-models, and yes, in biased environment, these
require hard work, on part of people who don't want to be perceived in biased
fashion. Tough cookie.

~~~
erikpukinskis
I don't understand what problem you think she has that would be solved by
"getting over it". She seems like she's doing fine to me. Getting stuff done.
Supporting herself. Writing stuff other people want to read. What's the
problem?

> How can you even know you're biased?

It's a lot like learning any other thing. As a young programmer, how can you
even know you're using classic anti-patterns in your coding? The answer is you
can't. When you are just starting out you don't even see the playing field,
let alone how to shine on it. But you start with what you know, practice, and
keep trying, and you get good as it. Learning about bias is no different than
anything else.

~~~
asgard1024
> I don't understand what problem you think she has that would be solved by
> "getting over it".

She will have to accept the fact that people are unconsciously biased and
won't fix it.

> It's a lot like learning any other thing.

My point is - people won't do it. Especially people in power, who make
decisions; they are often not "nice". What she wants is a micromanagement of
social relationships.

It actually may only confuse a couple of nice nerds and make them socially
more awkward as they honestly try to navigate the maze of these new social
norms. If anything, I am worried that the result will be even worse perception
of the IT profession.

------
JoeAltmaier
tl;dr: Interesting summary of the issues. Not much actionable at the end.

~~~
toothbrush
The author does suggest tracking data. This seems like a good idea: when
people get what promotions and raises, etc. This is to counterbalance our
tendency to see what our bias wants us to see.

~~~
alwaysdoit
I can see how this would work for larger minorities, but it doesn't seem to
scale (down): the smaller a minority, the higher variance you will see in your
data. I'm not sure it helps at all when you get down to the point where you
have only a single member of a group in your population.

------
malandrew

        behavior like assertiveness, dominance, or even interrupting
    

I've observed these behaviors in both women as well and people who aren't
white. What's common among these "exceptions" and the "white males" who
exhibit these traits is that they typically have a very aspie/autistic brain
with a strong focus on constructivism and proofs. There are also plenty of
white males who are not assertive, dominant and interrupt. And many white
males are interrupted by other white males that are assertive and dominant.
Women and non-whites are not the only ones who experience being interrupted by
assertive and dominant individuals.

If you're wrong about something (or perceived to be wrong about something) in
a discussion with someone (of either gender) who scores high on having
systemizing cognitive traits and mind-blindness, you'll likely experience them
interrupting you to assert their dominance about why you are wrong through
proofs and/or deductive reasoning.

Research indicates that the main correlative factor with these behaviors is
likely exposure to higher levels of fetal testosterone. While it is
statistically more common for males to be exposed to high levels of fetal
testosterone, females exposed to high levels of fetal testosterone also
exhibit similar personalities/behaviors. Levels of fetal testosterone exposure
are more predictive than gender insofar as measures of systematizing and
likelihood of mind blindness is concerned.

Focusing on this being a "gendered" issue leads you to ignore other factors
that may be more predictive (and possibly causative, but there's nothing
conclusive yet) than what sex chromosomes someone has.

Check out the research work from Simon Baron Cohen from the longitudinal
Cambridge Child Development Study.

[http://www.autismresearchcentre.com/project_15_foetaltst](http://www.autismresearchcentre.com/project_15_foetaltst)

FWIW, I am one of those assertive, dominant individuals that interrupts others
often. I try to be cognizant of this "habit" of mine. I interrupt white males
way way way more often than I interrupt those who are not male or white. I
happen to be a white male and aspie. As I have these traits, it's much easier
for me to recognize it in others irrespective of gender and race.

A great contributing factor to interrupting others is that I have an
incredibly hard time picking up on the facial and voice inflection cues that
indicate that someone is done speaking. I often perceive someone as being done
with their thought when they actually are not. When I err on the side of being
conservative and really wait for it to be obvious that someone is done
speaking, it results in me missing the opportunity to speak next and someone
with a greater capacity to realize when someone is done speaks up before I get
the chance. Because of this I either end up in scenarios where I interrupt
more often than I should or not having any opportunity to speak. It's quite
challenging to find the sweet spot where my timing is such where I can pick up
on when someone is done talking and speak next without interrupting them.

~~~
jlynn
I do not think the purpose of "gendered expectations" is to say that all
"white males" behave this way and that other types of people do not. It is not
meant to be predictive. As you point out, many people have these traits and
there is interesting research finding correlation between behavioral traits
and biological factors.

Instead, gendered expectations is about behavior that a society/environment
deem acceptable for a certain type of person. That is, it is more acceptable
for a man to behave in a loud and assertive manner.

Your final point really rung true with me. It is a great example of how
environments encourage, or even require, that type of behavior. I can recall
many times that I have been in a meeting and had anxiety that I couldn't get
my point across because someone else was interrupting more effectively. And if
I don't interrupt at the right time, I get spoken over and eventually the
topic moves on.

Know that in those environments, you're not the only person in the room
feeling that way. And for the less assertive people or those who think it is
inappropriate to interrupt others, they get even less opportunities to speak
up. It seems like that is the status quo for so many discussions and I have to
wonder, is there a better way?

