
In a Car-Culture Clash, It’s the Los Angeles Police vs. Pedestrians - danso
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/12/26/us/in-a-car-culture-clash-its-los-angeles-police-vs-pedestrians.html?hp&_r=0&pagewanted=all
======
pg
Apologies for looking at everything through startup-colored glasses, but my
first thought on reading this was that LA is going to have a hard time
becoming a startup hub with attitudes like this. The hackers and designers
that startups want to hire seem to be disproportionately likely to want to
travel on foot or by bike. So they like to live in cities where you can do
that, and dislike car-centric cities.

There is a bigger trend here though. As several recent studies have shown,
people in their 20s are turning against cars. So a city that favors cars at
the expense of pedestrians and bicycles is also one that favors the old at the
expense of the young.

~~~
mapgrep
> The hackers and designers that startups want to hire seem to be
> disproportionately likely to want to travel on foot or by bike

Startups clustered first in the aggressively car-centric suburbs of Silicon
Valley and in large part remain there. Even the YC offices are a long slog
from Caltrain, on foot through big streets clogged with cars and parking lots.
If Mountain View can attract startups why can't LA? I don't even agree with
these jaywalking fines but there seem to be at least as many car lovers among
my startup friends as my writer pals. (More, actually, when you factor in all
the friends who live in NY.)

~~~
pg
Actually Palo Alto is an exceptionally bike-friendly place. I wouldn't live in
a town that wasn't. I've never seen a town in the US where a higher percentage
of students bicycled to school, or serious cycling was a hobby of more adults.
(Bicycling has for years been the cool sport among VCs, for example.)

And as for YC, it's less than a mile from the Caltrain, in weather that is
almost always dry and warm, mostly along roads that are pretty empty of cars.
A lot of the founders we fund never get cars during the 3 month cycle, because
they can get everywhere by bike and Caltrain.

~~~
mjn
Palo Also is comparatively good for its area, but bicycling's modal share
among commute options even there is quite low, hovering around 10%. Partly
that's because many people who live in Palo Alto work elsewhere, and vice
versa. In other cities on the peninsula it doesn't even crack 5%; nearly
everyone who lives or works in Santa Clara or Sunnyvale drives, for example
(biking's modal share is <2%). Mountain View is somewhere in between, at ~6%.

Those numbers aren't inconsistent with it being _possible_ to bike in those
cities, but they suggest that people in practice don't. Here's a map:
[http://www.flickr.com/photos/bike/8007583135/](http://www.flickr.com/photos/bike/8007583135/)

Infrastructurally, it's quite noticeable as well. The Valley doesn't _feel_
like a bike- or pedstrian-friendly place, but like a place criss-crossed by
huge roads, giant parking lots, and not only interstates and state freeways,
but _county_ expressways, something I've rarely seen elsewhere (apparently the
Peninsula opted out of BART and took the money that would've been spent there,
to build abominations like the San Tomas and Lawrence expressways, instead). I
remember walking from Mountain View Caltrain to the Microsoft campus on La
Avenida once for a SuperHappyDevHouse, and it clearly did not seem like a
route anyone ever expected a pedestrian to walk on.

------
nlh
It's remarkable how different cities have such radically different approaches
and attitudes toward pedestrians. More so how drivers - on the whole - have
this almost ESP-like ability to share a common like or dislike.

One of the most (pleasantly) jarring things I noticed about my move from NYC
to SF is how totally dominant pedestrians are in SF, how totally deferential
drivers are to pedestrians, and frankly how polite drivers are to each other.
SF is filled with 4-way stop signs, and there's a very efficient (unspoken)
system of coordinating who goes when (based on arrival time at the stop sign).
If you dare break the system, you get yelled (honked) at mercilessly.

As a pedestrian in SF, I sometimes have to insist that cars go ahead (I'm
rarely in a rush when I'm walking, and I know how frustrating it can be as a
driver to wait for a slow person to meander across the street). You need to do
nothing more than approach a crosswalk and every car in every direction will
stop and wait for you to cross -- people even insist that you cross and will
stop their cars while in mid-turn. I find that sometimes ill have to actually
walk away from the curb if I'm waiting for someone or not actually crossing
yet, otherwise _I_ impede traffic. It's pretty cool.

I spent a weekend in New Orleans recently, and one of the first things I
noticed was the complete lack of that pedestrian deference. Step in the street
at a crosswalk and cars will rush to get through before you start crossing.

I guess that's what they mean when they say "Live in Northern California, but
leave before you get soft" ;)

~~~
endersshadow
The way they deal with 4-way stop signs isn't "unspoken," it's the frigging
law [1]. That law is _exactly the same_ as every other state. This stuff is
covered day one of driver's ed. If you "break the system," you're breaking the
law and deserve a ticket, not just honking.

Moreover, the same deference can also be seen in Boston, which is a very
walkable city. Although jaywalking is very common in Boston. New Orleans is a
completely different city--only a small section of it has significant
pedestrian traffic, and that section is often closed off to cars, anyway.

[1] [http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-
bin/displaycode?section=veh&gr...](http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-
bin/displaycode?section=veh&group=21001-22000&file=21800-21809)

~~~
vampirechicken
In Ohio, the law at a four-way stop is: one car, rotating clockwise around the
intersection. NOT whoever got there first.

------
bradleyjg
In some of the most popular squares / blocks there shouldn't even be car
traffic during popular hours. It makes no sense to reserve 80% of the commons
60% of the time for hugely inefficient users of the space.

Take Times Square, why should thousands of pedestrians have to wait extra time
to cross, or even just have less breathing room to stand around, so that cars
with one to four people in them can have a more direct route to wherever they
are going? Let them go around.

~~~
culturestate
This is the case in some parts of Hong Kong, and it works beautifully — it's
actually part of an active campaign on the part of the HK government to
increase HK's pedestrian accessibility[1]. Interestingly, even here in one of
the most densely-packed cities on earth where 95% of the population uses
public transportation on a daily basis, pedestrians are only now being thought
of as more than second-class citizens.

1\.
[http://www.td.gov.hk/en/transport_in_hong_kong/pedestrianisa...](http://www.td.gov.hk/en/transport_in_hong_kong/pedestrianisation/pedestrianisation/)

------
Moto7451
Not sure if this really paints the most accurate picture. For one, LA has
plenty of unmarked crosswalks that are completely legal to cross. When I
worked in Downtown LA I never had a problem with this.

Secondly the LAPD regularly does the reverse of this crackdown and has plain
cloths officers cross said crosswalks in order to catch motorists who aren't
paying attention/don't care.

I live in Hollywood and every few months I see a jay walking/unmarked
crosswalk related accident. When you have distracted motorists in a busy area
it's going to happen. When it gets really busy the LAPD cracks down on both
sides and erects barriers to keep people on the sidewalk. Seems to work well
here but probably is too manpower intensive for downtown.

------
revelation
We need to desperately change perceptions for traffic. Cars are the recurring
factor in all crashes, and they can't be even near pedestrians. If that means
they can't clog up the city center, then thats what we have to do.

Just look at this statistic from NY for 2012: [http://www.streetsblog.org/wp-
content/uploads/2013/12/dmv1.j...](http://www.streetsblog.org/wp-
content/uploads/2013/12/dmv1.jpg)

135 pedestrians killed. These are not people that suddenly collapsed and died,
they died from intersections in the space-time continuum with cars. And nobody
is being charged for these crashes, if you are not drunk or flee the scene,
you can kill people with impunity (jumping the curb included).

I highly recommend reading through
[http://www.streetsblog.org](http://www.streetsblog.org) for a few pages. Or
try this article, it's a good summary of all that is wrong:

[http://www.nytimes.com/2013/12/01/nyregion/traffic-agent-
fat...](http://www.nytimes.com/2013/12/01/nyregion/traffic-agent-fatally-
struck-in-manhattan.html)

------
jrockway
Would love to see the NYPD do this. People make absolutely bone-headed
decisions as to when and where to cross the street and get killed every year.

My favorite is when people block traffic to cross one way, then the light
changes, and they do the same thing to cross the other way. If they had just
crossed the two streets in the opposite order, they would have done both
crossings with the right of way. Stupid, stupid idiots.

I also enjoy it when people jump out from between parked cars right into the
bike lane. It must be nice to have a destination that would be out of the way
if you went to the fucking corner to cross the street.

~~~
jrockway
I should also point out that I'd like to see this, _after_ we increase car
ticketing a thousandfold. Every day, I see cars running red lights, people
driving 50 in a 20 zone, cars illegally triple-parked, completely blocking
ambulances, and so on. The reason so many people die in traffic in New York is
because the NYPD does not enforce any traffic laws, and the laws have no bite
anyway.

Did you know that if you don't have a driver's license and you kill a little
kid on the way to school, the maximum penalty is a $500 fine and 30 days in
jail [1]? If you ever want to murder anyone, the message is clear: do it in
New York, with your car.

[1] [http://www.streetsblog.org/2013/12/20/unlicensed-truck-
drive...](http://www.streetsblog.org/2013/12/20/unlicensed-truck-driver-kills-
noshat-nahian-8-in-northern-blvd-crosswalk/)

~~~
code_duck
I would love to see traffic enforcement increase - as Lon as it is fairly and
evenly distributed and not tied to illegal substance possession enforcement.

------
ballard
NWA said it best: "Fuck the police."

But look at the date... End-of-the-month quota-filling dragnet likely.

~~~
talmand
No, it's worse than that, far worse. In hard times a city with a failing
budget does many things to generate revenue. One of the easiest sources of
revenue for a city is a series of laws that imply fines on people for actions
that at the time is considered normal behavior. Often the reason given is for
"public safety" or for "public goodwill" or other similar notions.

New taxes is popular too, but if you live in a city that has legal issues with
creating new taxes they suddenly institute new "fees".

As more cities drown in their budgets you can expect more of this behavior
from some cities. Not all of them will go down this road, but many will.

You can expect, and we've already seen much of this, new ideas of generating
revenue such as fines, fees, and/or taxes. All at the expense of the people
that these revenues are supposed to somehow help.

~~~
walshemj
This the problem when you let local government have to many powers and set
their own laws.

~~~
talmand
Not just local, but all governments. All governments over time build
themselves up to a point that it can no longer be supported by society, nor
itself, so that it eventually collapses. Then the people pick up the pieces,
vow to never let that happen again for the sake of future generations, and
then they go about doing it all over again.

------
replicatorblog
I think the framing of this is a little off—from what I understand from
friends living in LA, ridiculous ticketing is endemic, for minor traffic
infractions to jaywalking. Their perception is that large swaths of the police
force are basically being repurposed as tax collectors.

It makes sense, it generates a ton of revenue and isn't subject to many of the
traditional political procedures. I'd be curious if any LA locals agree or
disagree with that assessment?

~~~
waterlesscloud
No, this is not at all my experience in Los Angeles, and certainly not with
LAPD.

I've gotten tickets here, but one was on the freeway from CHP, and the other
was in Burbank (which is a different city and police department). In Burbank
the officer was explicitly waiting for someone to do what I did, which kind of
annoyed me.

But in Los Angeles itself, LAPD has left me completely alone. I joke that
unless you're actively stabbing someone in front of them, they have better
things to do.

Parking is another matter. There's a parking enforcement department, and they
are quite aggressive, 24 hours a day.

~~~
mixmastamyk
For those of us not prone to drug sales, extortion, murder, etc... traffic and
parking are our only interaction with local PD. So in most cases it sounds
like you are actually in agreement despite the comment above.

Most of us have very little interaction with LAPD, since they maintain low
numbers of officers for a city its size. But when it comes from extracting $$$
from citizens they are a well-oiled machine. You can expect a parking ticket
within 15 minutes anywhere in the city. Santa Monica (a different city) is
even more aggressive.

~~~
waterlesscloud
I'm saying I've never gotten a traffic ticket from LAPD. In my experience
traffic enforcement is pretty lax in Los Angeles.

------
moocowduckquack
Reminds me of the elderly UK historian who managed to get himself locked up
for jaywalking in Atlanta.

 _" First, I learnt that the Atlanta police are barbaric, brutal, and out of
control. The violence I experienced was the worst of my sheltered life.
Muggers who attacked me once near my home in Oxford were considerably more
gentle with me than the Atlanta cops."_

[http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/commentators/felipe-
fern...](http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/commentators/felipe-
fernandezarmesto-the-accidental-criminal-431881.html)

------
Fizzadar
As a Brit living in London the whole idea of 'jaywalking' is hilarious. It's
totally ridiculous to force pedestrians to always use lights & pelican
crossings. Assuming everyone has a bit of common sense (don't walk in front of
a moving car) I can think of absolutely no reason why these ridiculous laws
even exist. A huge number of hours are saved in London every day by everyone
not having to wait for a green man.

And a $197 fine?! WTF? Glad I'm not living in LA, I could rack up thousands of
dollars in a few hours if walking as one does in London.

~~~
pwg
> Assuming everyone has a bit of common sense (don't walk in front of a moving
> car)

And therein lies the problem. There is a subset of American pedestrians who,
because the law says they have the right of way, believe that the laws of
physics also do not apply to them either. I have personally witnessed, too
many times to count, a pedestrian approaching a crosswalk across a busy, four
lane road, who continues, fast paced, without slowing the slightest, towards,
into, and across, the crosswalk, without so much as even a glance left or
right to check where the oncoming traffic happens to be. I.e., they just step
out in front of cars (4 lanes worth) moving 35MPH, with no regard for how much
distance there is between a cars hood and their spot in the crosswalk.

The only thing that saves them from getting killed is the random positioning
of cars such that they don't actually step in front of a car with only 20 feet
left before impact, and the fact that the drivers with 100 feet of space left
nearly skid to a stop because of the fool that forget what his/her mother
taught them: "Always look both ways before crossing the street".

Sadly, this total lack of common sense seems to infest about 20% of the
pedestrian population, and is a major factor contributing to the accident
rate. Because quite simply, if you are not in front of a moving car, you can't
possibly be hit.

~~~
Fizzadar
This is very rare in the UK, everyone's pretty good at looking left & right
(although many will run/jog rather than wait). I guess this is more an
education problem. To be frank if you're stupid enough not to look then you
deserve to be hit (of course that attitude won't work in reality as often the
driver/car will be at fault by default - certainly in the UK).

Perhaps the best approach would be to not punish 'safe' jaywalking but to give
out harsh tickets for those that cause cars to slam the brakes/similar.

~~~
pwg
> Perhaps the best approach would be to not punish 'safe' jaywalking but to
> give out harsh tickets for those that cause cars to slam the brakes/similar.

Yes, this would be best, but sadly like so many root causes of problems, it
will likely not get addressed.

------
pkulak
[http://paleofuture.gizmodo.com/the-invention-of-
jaywalking-w...](http://paleofuture.gizmodo.com/the-invention-of-jaywalking-
was-a-massive-shaming-campa-858926923)

------
sologoub
Some of the details are a bit sketchy, buy $197 for jaywalking really caught
my eye. Got a parking ticket a couple if months back... $128. Seems like these
more than doubled in last few years. Inflation anyone?

~~~
ztrerwtr56
He crossed a red light, that seems fair to me( Europe has similar "prices" ).
A car doing that would get at least 2x times that plus points depending on the
country.

~~~
greeneggs
No, he was crossing with the _green_ light, but started after the pedestrian
signal started flashing red. Provided he still got through on the green, I
don't think this should even be illegal!

The fine for a car going through a _red_ light is only ~$500 in California.

~~~
ztrerwtr56
Flashing don't walk is there to signal new pedestrians to not start walking
and let the existing ones to finish the crossing.

[http://www.walkinginfo.org/faqs/answer.cfm?id=16](http://www.walkinginfo.org/faqs/answer.cfm?id=16)

~~~
ryoshu
I was recently in downtown LA for a convention and there was at least one
pedestrian signal that had a white walk signal that showed for 1-2 seconds. If
you had your head turned to the side while waiting for the walk signal, you
would likely miss it before getting the red flashing "don't walk." LA is the
least friendly walking city I've ever seen.

------
jack-r-abbit
"People upset that previously unenforced rules find renewed enforcement...
news at 11"

I get that a fine of $200 for starting to cross on a flashing "Don't Walk" is
a bit excessive. But people should not be surprised by a ticket for
jaywalking. They are only surprised because it turns out that "everyone does
it" isn't really a good defense. I do it. By myself and with groups also doing
it. Never got a ticket. But if I did get a ticket, it would totally be
justified.

------
thrillgore
This screams of quota fulfillment.

------
steamer25
I'm a card-carrying member of the National Motorists Association so I totally
get the idea of maintaining a free-flowing thoroughfare but this seems
ridiculous. The law should be amended thusly:

    
    
      - if (person.isCrossingWithoutSignal) officer.cite(person, fine=$197.00);
      + if (person.isCrossingWithoutSignal && nearbyTraffic.isImpededBy(person)) officer.cite(person, fine=$30.00);

------
bwanab
I'm not even sure this is news. In 1990, on my first business trip to LA from
NYC, my contact there - a transplanted New Yorker, warned me that jay walking
wasn't tolerated in LA.

------
placeybordeaux
I live in Atlanta and people jay walk, aggressivily every day. I have never
seen either anyone get arrested or an accident result from jay walking.

I hope the LAPD move onto something more reasonable.

~~~
w0rd-driven
I live in the suburbs of Atlanta and it's pretty much all over here. I have a
problem with noticing it primarily because I don't bother doing it, I can wait
those few extra seconds or minutes to be safe. I think the main reason it's
annoying is people often do it knowing cars are coming at full speed, with no
real regard for their safety or the safety of others. Jaywalking to me is a
privilege when used correctly and I'm all for not fining the hell out of
people. It's when they become a douchebag, seemingly trying to win some sort
of lawsuit lottery with their arrogance that really rubs me the wrong way. You
more often die from an automobile striking you than them slowing down just
enough for it to be a "love tap" you can take to the bank anyway.

------
elwell
When I lived in philly, I jay-walked all the time. Now I live in LA, the
streets are usually wider and the cars tend to drive faster so I very rarely
jay-walk.

------
atacrawl
Revenue generation masquerading as public safety.

