
High doses of ketamine can temporarily switch off the brain, say researchers - hhs
https://www.cam.ac.uk/research/news/high-doses-of-ketamine-can-temporarily-switch-off-the-brain-say-researchers
======
sibeliuss
My experience with Ketamine was that it was simply _too much fun, too weird,
and felt too good_ \-- I had to distance myself from it, regarding it like
some kind of psychedelic heroin. I can understand why it's addictive.

However, it does have its purpose. I've heard of a lot of people cleaning up
their lives through its application.

And reading about it is always fascinating -- Stanislav Grof:
[https://realitysandwich.com/321100/my-ketamine-journeys-
or-k...](https://realitysandwich.com/321100/my-ketamine-journeys-or-ketamine-
and-the-enchantment-of-other-worlds/)

------
pinopinopino
Well, I honestly can say, that a hole dose of ketamine might change you in
ways you can't comprehend before you go into it. It made me view consciousness
as something special, not entirely captured by physical laws.

It is hard to explain, but beware before you enter. It changes you.

~~~
mc32
Would it have any therapeutic effect for people convicted of violent crimes?
Even white collar crimes like embezzlement?

Obviously they’d have to volunteer for something like that but it’d be
interesting to see if it changes them for he better or worse...

~~~
crocodiletears
I'd be worried about the state endorsing or experimenting with this, even as a
voluntary measure. Coming withing even an AU of normalizing pharmacologically
'correcting' asocial behavior could put us on a very dark path.

~~~
fragmede
For better or worse, we're very much already on this path. We chemically
'corrected' 'asocial' behavior by chemically castrating homosexuals, the most
high profile case being Alan Turing in the 1950's. He is believed to have
later committed suicide.

Society's views on homosexuality have progressed since then, but there _is_ a
bar for being gainfully employed and housed in the US. Unmediated, some
mentally ill people are not able to meet that bar. Too asocial to hold down a
job and thus too poor to afford housing. Medicated, they are. If the
alternative to being medicated and a productive member of society is to be
homeless or in prison, aren't we already there?

For those that are able to finding the right medication, it's life-changing.
We should be very _very_ cautious about what the state can force people to do,
but we should all strive for a society that's better equipped to handle and
treat mental illness and the problems that stem from that.

------
hprotagonist
depression: have you tried turning it off and then back on again?

tongue in cheek, but i think the more we learn about mechanism of action the
more it’s not the worst 1st order approximation.

~~~
tsco77
Ketamine, psilocybin and electro conclusive therapy are all similar in that
regards.

Ect is the definitive treatment of resistant depression, but if you can get
the same effect without requiring a psychiatrist, anesthesiologist, cna,
respiratory, and nursing, why wouldn't you?

------
natch
I was lucky / unlucky enough to have one ketamine experience due to a shoulder
dislocation. I cannot stress highly enough that I would not recommend it
unless you are highly tolerant of some disturbing stuff. It was a very short
(under 15 seconds), very intense, forced experience of being in essentially an
insect mind that was shunted along a path of thought and movement in a 2D maze
with no options whatsoever. It led to a very dark place with a surprise ending
that felt hopeless beyond anything I could have imagined. The punchline was I
learned in real time that not only was I dying (in the trip, not in real life)
but also that the entire universe did not actually exist and never had; it had
all been an illusion and a lie. And as I was learning this everything shrank
down to a point and blinked out, no time for questioning, all gone.

Fortunately at the same time a small part of me was watching the process from
the side (in horror) and somehow at some level I had a distant inkling and ray
of hope that it was all a trip. And then it was over and... extremely slow
fade back to consciousness over 15 minutes or so. Very not recommended but
very interesting.

~~~
Mo3
.. and the part of you that watched all of this and was concious of it
happening is the real you

~~~
warent
That's my understanding of it as well. All this about the universe ending,
never existing, being an illusion and a lie, that's just the collapse of a
ego. The lie it tells us so that we fight for its continued existence is that
the other side of it is some kind of horrific oblivion. Actually, the other
side is a serene wholeness. It is the source of beauty.

The individual ego is a useful way for the universe to experience itself in a
subject/object relationship and we should respect it for what it is, but a
side-effect of confusing the real self with this flimsy thing is pain and
suffering due to the delusion of separation.

I invite anyone who has had this experience, rather than compartmentalizing it
as a bad thing, to try and integrate it into life in productive ways. It can
lead to some really wonderful things.

~~~
natch
Yeah I do try to take the good from it. Thanks for the comment.

~~~
Mo3
Good and bad is simply perspective, my friend.

Go on Youtube and look for:

\- Eckhart Tolle - The park bench (and everything else)

\- Adyashanti - Enlightenment Unfolding (and everything else)

It takes years, but you'll come to terms with it.

------
dbqpdb
So I'm no scientician, but 24mg/kg is like 1.5g for an average human. I'm
pretty sure that this would not only turn of a humans brain, it may cause it
to burst into flames as well.

~~~
ipnon
The median lethal dose for people appears to be between 6g and 32g depending
on method of administration.

[0]
[https://erowid.org/chemicals/ketamine/ketamine_faq.shtml](https://erowid.org/chemicals/ketamine/ketamine_faq.shtml)

edit: After investigating, the source for this claim is the Merck Index from
1989, which is not readily available online. Anyone who would use the above
information to determine the appropriate ketamine dose for themselves or
someone else is a dangerous fool.

------
loceng
Hopefully people will have an open mind reading my comment, however within
spiritual circles it is somewhat known that many people can't tolerate doing
any type of entheogen too many times; what that amount of times is and dosing
where you lose complete connection will be subjective. I'm also not trying to
suggest all changes that occur after going through such an experience is the
act of "losing your soul or connection to your soul" \- however that arguably
is possibility at one end of the spectrum of possibilities. Some people seem
fine doing Ayahuasca their whole lives, like shamans - whether they are now
dependant on it and have regular access to it is another question, however
other people through ego mind addiction (entheogens are powerful for breaking
physical addictions, however are addictive for the mind) and force themselves
into ceremonies or experience that they know they will regularly if not 100%
of the time experience pure terror, not listening to their body's fear
response for what it doesn't want to experience and is trying to guide them
away from experiencing - instead their ego mind maintaining control and tricks
them to continue; the body is inherently intelligent and part of the equation
that needs to not be ignored to find balance and allowing your body's systems
to guide you to optimal health, equilibrium.

~~~
craftinator
> however within spiritual circles it is somewhat known

Writing things like this is really losses credibility for you.

~~~
loceng
Oh yeah? How else would you define the context of people who gather regularly
in community in relation to spirituality or gatherings for ceremony? Curious
what preconceptions and prejudices you have of who you classify that are
automatically discredited in your mind because they use the term "spiritual
circle" \- or am I misunderstanding what in that sentence discredits me?

Ever been to an Ayahuasca ceremony or talking circle? Just trying to get an
idea of your own experiences.

~~~
heavenlyblue
Last time I had been in a spiritual circle in London there was a guy telling a
bunch of single mothers that when he went to India he saw flying meditating
yogis.

The funny thing is that the mothers were there for the company (it was a
pleasant place to be, that’s why I was visiting too); but the guy’s assumption
was that everyone visiting was literally an idiot because he thought they came
there for his theories.

I am sorry but most of the time when I hear this another theory of mind (of
which there’s a bunch on Shroomery btw - you are not alone) and “spiritual
circles” this is what I imagine you are.

------
UI_at_80x24
I have undergone several ketamine treatments for depression. I have had 1
positive session out of 9 total.

Some trips were 'fun' others were not. My first experience with it was quite
rough.

The positive experience went as follows: pure nothingness. (I refer to it
internally as `#cat brain >/dev/null`)

It was incredible. Hope that I can silence all the noise in my brain. It was
peace. It may have been zen. I've wanted to kill myself just so I can return
to that level of peace. I haven't because I shouldn't. But it gives me hope
that I won't feel this way forever.

I have tried a variety of audio therapy and cognitive direction while
undergoing treatment to assist the process.

Examples include: (a) concentrated positive thoughts {thinking of a happy
place/directed peaceful imagery} (b) "not thinking" just let the trip take me
wherever it goes. {this may be the best course of treatment} (c) soothing
sounds {nature sounds, music used while meditating, etc} (d) guided meditation

The most recurrent theme I experienced (the trips would include visual and
auditory hallucinations) would be repeating geometric patterns and a
techo/dub-step style of music. These were pleasant experiences that I didn't
mind, although I felt that they didn't quite do the trick.

~~~
Marciplan
Hey there. I hope you’re well on your way to feeling better/happy. Best of
luck :)

------
spurdoman77
My personal empirical research agrees with the headline.

~~~
sneak
> _Six of the sheep were given a single higher dose of ketamine, 24mg /kg.
> This is at the high end of the anaesthetic range. Initially, the same
> response was seen as with a lower dose. But within two minutes of
> administering the drug, the brain activity of five of these six sheep
> stopped completely, one of them for several minutes - a phenomenon that has
> never been seen before._

You have taken 24mg/kg of ketamine before? I find that nearly impossible to
believe.

Approximately 15% of that dosage causes mammals to lose consciousness.

~~~
codetrotter
What would happen to a human taking such a big dose? Brain damage? Death?
Permanent coma? And would the outcome be the same even if monitored by
healthcare professionals? Or would they be able to stop the person from taking
damage from it?

~~~
Johnjonjoan
"Ketamine abusers are known to take doses many times higher than those given
to the sheep in this research. It is also likely that progressively higher
doses have to be taken to get the same effect. The researchers say that such
high doses can cause liver damage, may stop the heart, and be fatal."

~~~
ketamine__
It is _really_ hard to find a fatality attributed to ketamine. Recreational
users are known to take heroic doses. This sounds like pure speculation.

------
plerpin
Not surprised, vets already have been using ketamine to anesthetize reptiles.

~~~
monadic2
It's used to sedate humans, too:
[https://www.denverpost.com/2019/10/14/ketamine-sedative-
law-...](https://www.denverpost.com/2019/10/14/ketamine-sedative-law-
enforcement-elijah-mcclain/)

------
ben_stevenson
I've been working for a Ketamine Clinic the past few months, and it's
fascinating to learn about (bunch of good resources here:
[https://www.fargoketamineclinic.com](https://www.fargoketamineclinic.com) ).
While it can be incredibly addicting, it's also opening new research into
solving depression. Because it works differently than traditional
antidepressants by targeting the NMDA receptors and binding to them to
increase glutamate, it could vastly help people with treatment resistant
depression. The problem is that with high doses like this article suggests, it
can be dangerous. So it's a complicated area.

------
GordonS
It feels like most drugs change your mood or appear to change your
environment. The thing about k-hole level doses of ketamine is that it feels
like it transports you to another place entirely - lot's of people speak of
feeling the presence of multiple universes and timelines, and of feeling like
they are moving between them.

I have a friend who, after his first k-hole experience, was completely in awe
of life and the universe for some time afterwards. He would become emotional
and choked up talking about the beauty of it.

He was also half way convinced that ketamine would allow him to travel through
space and time to anywhere while in the hole. He couldn't wait to throw
himself back into a hole so he could travel the torrent of the universe stream
and explore further.

Nobody here has mentioned Erowid yet - I highly recommend it if you want to
read more about people's experiences while on ketamine, or indeed any other
drug.

------
oceanghost
The spiritual experiences on ketamine and other arylcyclohexylamine are
_intense_. Far more intense for me than any other drug I've tried. I've had
unexplainable experiences as well, where information retrieved in the drug
state turned out was accurate.

~~~
jeffbee
That’s the wonderful thing about drugs: they trigger the areas of the brain
that normally signal an insight or epiphany, but without the hassle of having
an actual epiphany. In reality you’re lying motionless on the floor for hours
thinking nothing.

~~~
tasty_freeze
Ages ago my next older brother told me that when he smoked pot he liked to sit
and think because he had deep insights, and the right answer to what he was
considering was clearer than in a sober state.

He didn't smoke around me and I hadn't (and still haven't) smoked pot. One
Saturday night he came home and it was obvious he was pretty baked. That is
when he dropped one of his insight bombshells on me: Stevie Wonder is the
Frank Sinatra of our generation.

I had the same though you just made: maybe it wasn't that he had clearer
insights, just the perception of it because other thoughts that might
contradict the conclusion didn't cross his mind.

------
GordonS
I wonder if this could be used in the treatment of brain injuries. Let's say
someone comes into the ER with a brain bleed / stroke - could they induce a
brain shutdown to help prevent further damage, while they worked on the
injury?

~~~
sriacha
That's an interesting thought. I wonder if there are any parallels with how
hypothermia can be induced to preserve brain function (following a period of
hypoxia)?

~~~
GordonS
That's exactly the thing that spurred my thinking :)

------
tezza
And people dancing on large doses of Ketamine clearly have little brain
intervention.

The K Hole must be the plug hole of one’s mind

~~~
dkersten
Dancing on ketamine is such a foreign concept to me. At low doses, its more
like sit quietly because my muscles are so relaxed and at high doses (still
low doses compared to the article) its lie on the floor while falling through
the void. I couldn’t imagine physical activity in either case.

~~~
thatcat
There are multiple forms: esketamine, arketamine, and a racemic mixture of
both of those. Es type is much more effective as anesthetic than other types
so user could experience the hallucinogen effects while remaining sort of
mobile.

~~~
dkersten
Sort of mobile, sure. I’ve been able to walk around on it. A bit wobbly, but
doable. Dancing would be a level of exertion beyond that though.

------
nubb
s/temporarily/permanently

I partied a lot as a kid and this is a lethal dosage for humans.

~~~
ipnon
The median lethal dose for humans appears to be between 6g and 32g depending
on the method of administration.[0] Drugs have different median lethal mg/kg
dose ratios across species.[1]

[0]
[https://erowid.org/chemicals/ketamine/ketamine_faq.shtml](https://erowid.org/chemicals/ketamine/ketamine_faq.shtml)
[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Median_lethal_dose#Examples](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Median_lethal_dose#Examples)

edit: After investigating, the source for this claim is the Merck Index from
1989, which is not readily available online. Anyone who would use the above
information to determine the appropriate ketamine dose for themselves or
someone else is a dangerous fool.

------
TomMarius
Is the person still the same person?

~~~
ravenstine
There's no such thing. We are different people second by second.

~~~
6510
That must be annoying.

------
softwarejosh
isnt ketamine a horse tranquillizer lol, doesnt seem like a stretch for it to
be an anesthetic

~~~
bookofjoe
It is indeed a horse tranquilizer; it works across species, in cats, dogs,
humans, and probably myriad others.

------
Valmar
Why not post the actual source, rather than some second-hand clickbait?

"Characteristic patterns of EEG oscillations in sheep (Ovis aries) induced by
ketamine may explain the psychotropic effects seen in humans"

[https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-020-66023-8?error=coo...](https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-020-66023-8?error=cookies_not_supported&code=8efd8d81-a3eb-4044-8208-2ea77d5a0eac)

~~~
kf
...seems like the official press release of the paper so quite okay.

------
omginternets
Enough of anything can _permanently_ switch off the brain.

I really wish scientific reporters would at least attempt to use meaningful
language in their headlines.

~~~
kylebyproxy
> But within two minutes of administering the drug, the brain activity of five
> of these six sheep stopped completely, one of them for several minutes - a
> phenomenon that has never been seen before.

...

> “A few minutes later their brains were functioning normally again - it was
> as though they had just been switched off and on.”

Headline seems spot-on to me. What exactly is your gripe?

~~~
fortran77
I think he's had too much ketamine.

