
Trump administration cracks down on H-1B visa abuse - molecule
http://money.cnn.com/2018/02/23/technology/h1b-visa-abuse/index.html
======
tristanj
The title is a bit misleading. This directive seems to target 3rd party H-1B
contractors such as Tata and Infosys, rather than 'High Tech' companies that
directly hire engineers such as Google, Apple, and Microsoft. Companies that
hire H-1Bs directly and employ them onsite shouldn't be affected by this
policy change.

I think the linked CNN Money article provides a better explanation of the
motives behind this change
[http://money.cnn.com/2018/02/23/technology/h1b-visa-
abuse/in...](http://money.cnn.com/2018/02/23/technology/h1b-visa-
abuse/index.html)

~~~
adamrezich
In my experience attempting to get an entry-level programming job at Microsoft
(while I lived in the area), they get a lot of hires through hiring agencies,
all of whom ask you what your legal residence status is as their first
question (which I have to say is highly discouraging when being unable to
score an entry-level CS job in one's own country).

~~~
mancerayder
I've never not been asked my residence status, ever, in direct or agency
hires, in my entire career.

It's most likely (almost certainly) a legal obligation. Each time I had to
furnish a SS card as well. A non-citizen SS card has a disclaimer on it saying
it's not valid for work authorization alone.

~~~
HarryHirsch
_I 've never not been asked my residence status, ever, in direct or agency
hires, in my entire career_

You probably have been asked for documentation that gives you permission to
work. The Department of Labor has a list somewhere (can't find it right now)
of what constitutes a work permit, and the employer has to accept anything
that conforms.

My wife ran into a particularly obstinate HR drone once who wouldn't accept
what she had. She asked _company counsel_ if her documentation was in order
and received a phonecall from HR to please come in and sign paperwork before
the day was over. Yes, federal law has teeth.

~~~
theandrewbailey
It's not the Department of Labor, it's the Department of Homeland Security.

[https://www.uscis.gov/i-9-central/acceptable-
documents/list-...](https://www.uscis.gov/i-9-central/acceptable-
documents/list-documents/form-i-9-acceptable-documents)

------
h1boo
Moving to temp account for this comment.

I have been in US for 15 yrs now. Came here for my masters and still on H-1B
today. I’m one layoff away from having to uproot my family and moving back. My
girls have only known this as their country.

I earn way above market and have paid plenty in taxes over the years. Because
for tax purposes you are considered a permanent resident after 1 yr. Someone
brilliant came up with this.

I never complained about my situation because I always have a choice to leave
US and it is my decision to stay. Most in my situation feel that we deserve to
be bumped up over random lottery and unskilled immigrants. I don’t because I
don’t feel this entitlement. Maybe the current generation is unskilled but
their future generations could go on to create a lot of value. Some even
become President.

Finally this year I’m considering moving out of US. In media it sounds like an
awesome place but a glance at the indexes show a different story (education,
social security, health care, even freedom). Every time I drop my kids at
school I’m worried about them. It all seems not worth it anymore.

~~~
alpeb
It's still, also by many indexes, one of the safest countries in the world,
despite the objectively isolated issues you see in the media... Unless you
come from another top OECD, coming back doesn't sound like a great deal.

~~~
daveFNbuck
What's your definition of "isolated issue"? Most people use it to mean a
random one-off that isn't part of a pattern, which can't reasonably be applied
to mass shootings in the US at this point.

~~~
cm2187
Mass shooting and terrorist atacks are still extremely rare events, very much
like plane crashes, compared to the many other ways one could get killed or
injured.

~~~
daveFNbuck
So your definition of "isolated issue" is an extremely rare event and not an
event that isn't part of a larger pattern?

~~~
cm2187
Call it isolated issue, call it extremely rare, whatever it is, it’s not worth
taking into account when deciding to live in the US or not.

~~~
daveFNbuck
I agree that mass shootings aren't a large statistical risk for an individual.
I'm only objecting to the use of language that suggests they aren't a systemic
issue.

------
trhrowuuo23
This is a good thing.

And I say this as an Indian H1B worker who's actually left the US because of
the broken immigration system.

I spent 8 years working for a big tech firm, and left the country when I
realized that I was essentially never going to get a green card, despite my
application being approved 4 years ago. The queue is now decades-long.

I worked directly for a giant tech company that you all know, and was paid a
very good salary, easily at par with a US Citizen. I know of so many people
who gamed the system, working in cahoots with consulting companies that exist
solely to scam people.

Now I live in Canada, working for the same company, making the same amount of
money, but as a Permanent Resident here. Life is so much simpler because I
don't need to worry about capricious immigration policy, and being treated
with suspicion at the border every time I fly back home.

Your system is broken and needs to be fixed. Now, I don't think your current
administration is going to fix it, but who knows.

~~~
wheretolive
<From throwaway account to avoid leaking personal info>

I feel so great for you! Finally, I am moving out. Enough dealing with the
immigration crap here!

I waited for 8 years too. Didn't let immigration stall my career. Built a
company, sold it to one of the top tech companies in Bay Area. Building
another company to solve a really tough problem. But man it has been
stressful! USCIS keeps getting hung up on technicality and makes it as
difficult as possible to live here.

Meanwhile I have paid millions in taxes in US.

People who are in the lowest part of the value chain, will always find a
loophole - there is too much money at stake and they don't have any other
choice!

Accomplished people will move out or stop coming! US, keep doing this and
eventually H1B will be just be a tool for cheap labor! Best talent from India,
doesn't come to US anymore! And most of who are still here will move out!

I applied for EB-1. They need 3 criteria. Accepted 2 criteria (extra ordinary
contribution to my field and leading role in organizations). They rejected the
media and press criteria because most of the press about my company's
acquisition, while mentioned me by name, was about the _company_ and not _me_.
And BTW I was Founder of the company and built it from scratch.

In any other country, one of the criteria that they accepted would have been
enough.

If you are talented and from India, don't waste your life in US. Where ever
you go, jobs will follow you. Move out as soon as you can!

Good bye US!

~~~
rvo
>I applied EB-1. They need 3 criteria. Accepted 2 criteria (extra ordinary
contribution to my field and leading role in organizations). They rejected the
media and press criteria because most of the press about my company's
acquisition, while mentioned me by name, was about the company and not me. And
BTW I was Founder of the company and built it from scratch.

That is such BS. I was gonna try (I have some publications and stuff) but
that's about it. Now I feel like I am rotting away here.

~~~
wheretolive
Going for EB-1 has been one of the worst decisions of my life. I wasted 2
years collecting paper work, getting letters, wasting money and waiting!

It really a luck thing. And if you have to go premium. You will find out
sooner!

~~~
rvo
Lawyer adviced the same. Told me it was almost impossible for me to do EB-1
and it was all about luck. I don't really want to do that. It's just
frustrating seeing people I went to school with years ago from other countries
become greencard holders so quickly without even doing grad school or STEM.

~~~
wheretolive
It's not luck as in buying a lottery ticket. If the case is not strong and not
well prepared - it will definitely get rejected.

But if the case is really strong, and the petition is really strong - it's
possible that you might get lucky and they might approve it.

It depends on which officer did you get, which side of the bed they woke up
and did they have a fight with their spouse recently!

It really sucks!

------
dblock
I was a beneficiary of an H1B in 99 from Switzerland (easily confused with
Sweden that Trump wants qualified candidates from). After months of waiting I
moved to the US, and got a green card five years later.

I’m grateful. I made my life here. But I think it’s not worth it, the America
we all romanticized is long gone.

~~~
adamnemecek
I think that that America actually never existed, it was all just propaganda.

~~~
chrisper
I think that America existed for a short time after WW2 and maybe the time
before 9/11.

That's when all that Suburban sprawl started and we all think of maybe when we
think of "great USA." Nevertheless, I do think that propaganda (mainly
Hollywood) is adding to that positive image.

~~~
jackweirdy
Sounds like it started and ended with Bretton Woods

------
jorblumesea
If this actually does target the outsourcing firms, eg: Tata, Infosys,
Cognizant, then this is good for tech. We need more experienced foreigners and
not spaghetti code shops.

But really, the system is broken. A lottery is a horrible way to decide value
or qualifications. Let in the people who truly deserve it, not the ones who
flood the system with applications.

Point system, please.

~~~
jeremyjh
Why not award the visas to the companies bidding for the highest salaries?
This aligns incentives better for everyone I think. It would improve the
talent pool and prevent the body shops from using the program to staff project
managers who send work offshore.

~~~
mtremsal
With this approach wouldn't you help established companies against startups
which provide compensation with more stock options and less salary?

~~~
AlphaSite
Have a separate startup visa for complies below a fixed size?

~~~
rohit2412
And that's how you get Infosys/TCS to start/acquire a thousand consulting
startups

~~~
AlphaSite
This can have its own set of criteria, it’s much easier to protect a special
purpose visa. For example just outright ban consulting on the startup visa.

------
ilamont
_" Let's compare the number of H-1B recipients with the 1.1 million green
cards that are issued every year. Why are we quibbling over 65,000 people that
corporations are trying to recruit? And the government is trying to
micromanage this? It makes no sense."_

[https://www.hpe.com/us/en/insights/articles/the-
incredible-s...](https://www.hpe.com/us/en/insights/articles/the-incredible-
shrinking-h-1b-visa-what-it-means-for-tech-companies-1706.html)

~~~
Mountain_Skies
I wonder how many people who say "Oh God yes, please run Trump, please run"
because they thought he'd lose badly now regret that attitude. Telling people
to stop looking at the tech visa issue because the number of green cards dwarf
it just invites a push towards a return to pre 1960s immigration policies.

~~~
mc32
If I understand it correctly the Trump admin wants to institute something more
akin to the AU and CA visa systems --preferring people who fill skills voids
in the US. It's not a return to pre-60's policies.

I think this aligns with most other modern economies out there. If anything,
we're the outlier allowing randoms to come in without regard to skills or
means.

~~~
aianus
Why is this controversial? Why would Americans prefer immigrants chosen at
random through a lottery vs. those who are skilled and vetted? Or worse,
giving illegal immigrants immunity?

~~~
mc32
I don't think it's controversial. Any country I've been to that can control
ingress does control ingress and will promptly deport people who didn't enter
the proper way.

Japan, S Korea, China, Singapore, etc., would be extremely hard for anyone to
work off the books without having to resort to the underworld. Otherwise you
may last a month or two, but most people will get kicked out without a visa.
What's more regular police have the authority and responsibility to make sure
anyone without a visa gets expelled.

~~~
rjsw
Does that work even if the visa-less person can't remember which country they
came from ?

~~~
mc32
This would be so rare that it'd be of little impact. That said, they would
likely investigate who this person was, who originally employed them, and use
those records along with any other trails left at points of entry and use that
info to return the overstayer.

------
megaman22
The proportion of H1Bs that are employed by actual tech companies, rather than
technical consulting companies, is stark[1]. Having dealt with a number of the
latter batch of outfits, through our customers that have outsourced their IT
work to them, I would not be sad to see their business model go away. Neither
would most of our customers, who tend to be regretting the experiment and
trying to bring their IT back in-house, as soon as their contracts are up.

I think the H1B system is dumb. Educated, highly effective workers in in-
demand fields are exactly the kind of immigrants you would want to fast-track
in for real citizenship, rather than exploiting them in quasi-indentured
servitude. The other category I found somewhat mind-blowing was the situation
of a lot of my international classmates upon graduation; educate them for four
years or more at a prestigious US university, and once they graduate, kick
them back home and make it difficult for them to come back.

[1] [http://fortune.com/2017/08/03/companies-h1b-visa-
holders/](http://fortune.com/2017/08/03/companies-h1b-visa-holders/)

~~~
walshemj
Well some of that is universities charge more for international students and
see them as a revenue stream.

~~~
DrScump
What universities charge more for international students than for random,
unaffiliated students from other US states?

Some state systems "discount" fees for state residents, but that's based on
the premise that those families have been paying into the system.

~~~
sotojuan
It's not that they charge more (though I don't have evidence they don't), it's
just that international students almost always pay full price.

American students may receive financial aid either from the government, or the
university itself (scholarship or other aid). International students on the
other hand usually don't. They pay full price. They make universities,
particularly private ones, a lot of money.

I went to a good but not top private college on scholarship. Some undergrad
majors such as business and the graduate business school were overwhelmingly
international students. The law school is approaching 50% international
students.

------
jimmywanger
I think that this is useful for companies who abuse the H1B.

I doubt that any of the big Four (Google, Facebook, Amazon, Apple) will have
any problem with this, but the consulting body shops will be scrambling.

And, this is something else problematic for startups who want to import
talent. You need to have some sort of legal/immigration department to deal
with this paperwork, and most startups don't have/can't afford that.

~~~
fooker
Not directly related, but a friend of mine from India got a J1 visa for an
internship at a big four rejected last week.

~~~
jimmywanger
Sure. I'm just saying that the big four has the ability to deal with this
contingency, and backing paperwork and documentation.

You don't get rejected out of hand for not being authorized to work in the USA
currently.

~~~
fooker
Sure you do. Google, Apple and Facebook (and virtually every company in the
Bay Area) have all stopped trying to get H1Bs for new grads with degrees from
outside the US.

Microsoft is the exception for now.

------
throwaway224
H1b from India here and I think these rules are good. I am working in the US
for the last 7 years and my green card (I-140) was approved 6 years ago. At
the current pace it would take another 8 years to get my green card. It's hard
for me to switch jobs, can't start any company, can't get promoted to
management etc. There is uncertainty in almost all aspects of my life.

I am on H1b, I am not cheap labor. I get paid exorbitant amount of money for
my skills. I seriously thought of moving to Canada, but because of our health
issues with cold weather we could not move. I love this country, my life,
prospects of success once I get my green card and quality of life that my kids
would have.

But I am tired! I am so tired!

~~~
periya
Why does being on a H1B prevent you from getting promoted to management ?

Source : Work at a big tech where several H1Bs have made it to the higher
levels of management.

~~~
throwaway224
A green card application is tied to job responsibilities, role and job
location. Switching to a new job location or accepting a new role (for
example, switch from engineering to product management or for that matter
other management positions) is hard. Such changes would usually require the
whole green card to be restarted (LCA, hiring, cool-off period, PERM, I-140)
and it easily takes more than a year and is stressful.

------
sterlind
We're shooting ourselves in the foot _so hard._ China is expanding
aggressively, and will likely be the next superpower. We need all the
engineers we can get our hands on, or soon, people won't _want_ citizenship
here.

~~~
austincheney
Then why doesn't the US produce more top quality engineers? It isn't as though
the US lacks the population or resources to solve this problem domestically.
My thinking is that Americans simply don't want it that badly.

~~~
rootw0rm
We produce excellent engineers. We also want them badly. We just don't want to
pay them.

~~~
aianus
This logically doesn't make any sense.

What are they doing then, sitting on their ass at home? Emigrating outside of
the US? If not, and they're working, and companies are still having trouble
filling positions, how would paying the existing American engineers more fill
those outstanding positions?

~~~
jimmaswell
When I was applying to job openings after college, the very few times I heard
back from them, I was offered pay in the range of $15/hr, 35k, etc. for a
junior software developer position. Luckily I eventually got something decent
but it really is a problem with the companies. There are way more than enough
programmers out there, companies just don't want to pay them/don't want to
invest in junior devs anymore, as discussed here:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16367997](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16367997)

~~~
aianus
What year was this in? It wasn't my experience in college in 2010-2015 at all.

Many SV companies recruited mostly useless interns like me and mentored us and
paid us well over the median US household income. All in the hopes that we
would become useful and join after graduation (at well over six figures
salary).

And I'm Canadian so they were also paying flights, relocation, visa fees, etc.
It doesn't make a lot of sense for them to do these things if it's so easy to
hire an American developer at $50k, but maybe their hiring process is that
broken?

~~~
jimmaswell
2017\. They could easily fly in students from other states too if they wanted.
My experience was in NY.

------
austincheney
I always find the concept of technology worker immigration to be a rather
strange scenario. How the hell can the US be so dependent upon immigrants for
work when there are so many Americans wanting to work for big technology
companies?

This begs the question: _Are Americans workers too incompetent at technology
development?_ If so what is the cause of that problem?

~~~
klipt
Think of it this way - does a global company like Apple or Google want to hire
just from the best in the US, or the best in the _world_?

If they hire from the best in the world, is it better for America if those
hires are in the US paying US taxes, or overseas paying taxes to some other
country?

~~~
jimmaswell
Another perspective: does a global company like Apple or Google want to hire
just from the cheapest in the US, or the cheapest in the world?

~~~
klipt
If they wanted cheap, why would they put their HQs in Silicon Valley?

Google has an office in freaking _Paris_. It's not like international hires
choose Silicon Valley over Paris because they're enamored with overpriced
suburban living. It's just because they need to be at the HQ for better career
advancement.

------
yanslookup
This is a major gift to the non infosys/Tata type employers. It looks good on
the surface but it does nothing to address the real problem h1b causes. The
power imbalance remains, the wage suppression continues, the greencard backlog
remains and the government gets to wipe their hands and say they fixed it.

------
sumanthvepa
I think the best place for an Indian to be an entrepreneur is, surprise,
surprise -- India. I faced this problem a decade ago and decided that it was
better give up a green card than to give up on entrepreneurship and returned
to India. I really cherish my decade in the US, and in many ways that country
defined my liberal political views. But returning to India was the right
decision. Still I feel sad for the this generation of smart young Indian
graduates who may not be able to get the experience of working in a foreign
country and really understanding its culture.

------
briga
What exactly does this change? Now there's some extra paperwork? Presumably
this wont be a problem for the companies already willing to shell out tens of
thousands of dollars for the H-1B process.

~~~
MR4D
It’s not just paperwork, it’s more chance to accidentally distort the truth.
This increases risk substantially, and the chance for penalties to rise
increases as well.

So the direct costs may not be huge, but the indirect costs just got raised
quite a bit.

------
gumby
But not the H-2B visas that Trump uses for his properties. Hmm.

[https://www.vox.com/policy-and-
politics/2017/7/20/16003254/t...](https://www.vox.com/policy-and-
politics/2017/7/20/16003254/trump-h2b-visa-program)

~~~
TheAdamAndChe
It would be illogical for a businessman not to exploit the system within the
bounds of the law. Those who don't get outcompeted. The behavior of
businesspeople should not be expected to be the same as elected politicians.

~~~
jasonlotito
Sure, but he is a politician, and so we are holding him to those stated
standards.

Why shouldn't we judge a politican as a politician?

~~~
TheAdamAndChe
We shouldn't judge all his past behaviors under the lens of a politician
because he wasn't a politician. He was a businessman. The fact that he is
pushing for immigration reform while he historically exploited those systems
shows that he is able to differentiate between necessary ruthless business
tactics and civic duty.

~~~
jasonlotito
I'm not.

These are things his companies are still doing since he's been a politician
and the President.

So, I ask again: Why shouldn't we judge a politician as a politician?

------
Ilikepancakes
Does this change anything ?. This is not something new. This is something that
is being enforced already ( source: I am on H1 and doing this already). can
somebody tell me what is different this time ?

------
mesozoic
Do you think this will put positive or negative pressure on wages for current
and future US tech employees?

------
RandomCSGeek
As an Indian who suffers from discriminatory policies of Indian
government(reservation based on caste, gender and physical disability), if
someone offered me an option to move to US(or any other developed country for
that matter), but on a salary say 3x less than avg salary of US employee, I'd
most likely accept it. The grass looks greener on the other side, and there is
hardly anything to lose by trying.

If you really want to stop people from scamming the system, you need to make
the system stronger.

------
jmpman
When is the minimum salary requirement going into effect? Trump had promised
$100k minimum salary. Now, paying immigrants $100k is foolish macro economic
policy, when they’ve been shown to work for substantially less. The purpose of
the $100k minimum is to make the US citizens more competitive, but there’s no
reason the additional money needs to go to the H1B. Instead, the additional
money should be a tax (say $40k for an H1B making $60k), and that money should
be earmarked for scholarships for US citizens studying in the field occupied
by the H1B. This increases the labor pool, which is the justification for the
H1B system in the first place, and keeps these newly minted US citizen
graduates competitive against the H1B flood. The policy should be supported by
the left as it helps college students and by the right as it increases the
labor pool, ultimately driving down wages using domestic labor and improving
trade balance by dramatically reducing money sent overseas.

