
Why Aren’t There More Asian Americans in Leadership Positions? - kungfudoi
https://hbr.org/2016/12/why-arent-there-more-asian-americans-in-leadership-positions
======
terda12
I'm not a business leader by any means so keep that in mind.

I'm an Asian, and I don't see this as a problem tbh. American leaders have,
historically, tend to be white men (think the first 49 presidents). We're
definitely starting to see diversity in leadership positions. Obama, Sundar
Pichai of Google, Satya Nadella of Microsoft, Yishan Wong/Ellen Pao of Reddit
are some examples that come to my mind.

Even Ellen Pao, who received flak for some reddit drama, was never criticized
for being an Asian female.

So yeah I'm not too worried. I think we're seeing a shift towards a more
diverse country for sure. It won't happen overnight but it's definitely
shifting.

~~~
novia
> Even Ellen Pao, who received flak for some reddit drama, was never
> criticized for being an Asian female.

Yes she was. They referred to her as "Chairman Pao" as well as other racist
and sexist slurs which I do not care to repeat.

~~~
chipperyman573
Wasn't she on the board of Reddit? Making her a chairman (or is the PC way to
say that chairwoman and you're trying to make this a sex issue)

~~~
novia
Ok, fine, here is a link to a comment from a year ago that is both racist and
sexist:
[https://www.reddit.com/r/opieandanthony/comments/36mx0n/redd...](https://www.reddit.com/r/opieandanthony/comments/36mx0n/reddit_ceo_ellen_pao_its_not_our_sites_goal_to_be/crfbssl/)

The Chairman Pao nickname was used to draw comparisons between Ellen Pao and
Chairman Mao. Yeah, not racist at all.

~~~
mbrameld
Is it racist to compare a white male leader to Hitler?

~~~
sushid
I don't think you can categorically say that (but are welcome to make that
accusation). Are you saying that because we as a society make comparisons to
Hitler, it's okay to call an Asian woman in a leadership position something
like "Chairman Mao?"

If a black person were compared to Mugabe, is that also racist? What if you
compared an Italian person to Mussolini? is that racist?

You can ask more asinine questions but you're really skirting around the real
question here (with a fairly clear answer).

~~~
EdHominem
> Are you saying that because we as a society make comparisons to Hitler, it's
> okay to call an Asian woman in a leadership position something like
> "Chairman Mao?"

Are you trying to guilt trip everyone by making it seem like mocking power is
a racist thing just because people of many races are involved? Rather than
this passive aggressive attempt to trap someone, why don't you come out and
simply say that you think it _is_ racist and inappropriate?

> What if you compared an Italian person to Mussolini? is that racist?

Just some random Italian person you see walking around Rome? It's likely just
wrong.

But when comparing some bossy jerk to a tyrant, is it more racist to pick
Mussolini for an Italian person? Probably not, because the dictators were a
product of their cultures. Italians probably are more like Mussolini than Mao.

Your post insinuates that people are insulting black people, or asians, and
just throwing out any insult that fits. Yes, it is racist to just insult
someone just for their color - regardless of who you compare them to. But if
you're going to insult someone for non-racist reasons it doesn't suddenly
become racist just because you pick Mugabe to compare them to, for instance.

We don't do anyone any favors by over-reporting racism and in fact that's a
common racist troll tactic; call everything racism to water it down or make
victims look like complainers.

~~~
sushid
Wow, I didn't expect anyone to reply to those specific examples. My point was
that they're asinine. Context matters and those situations are clearly vague
enough that it's doesn't warrant any further discussion.

In Pao's context, the comparisons drawn does suggest a racist undertone, an
issue the parent commenter in my post seems to try and skirt around by asking
another question.

Basically, you're literally missing my point. I'm pointing at the moon and
you're too busying looking at my finger.

As an aside, it's hilarious to me that you think it's accommodating to compare
Italians to Mussolini (over Mao or other dictators due to their shared
cultural connection).

~~~
mbrameld
You're focused so hard on the moon while everybody else has been talking about
the stars the whole time.

Pao sounds a lot like Mao. It would regardless of the race of the person with
the name Pao. Mao was an oppressive dictator. The people that called Pao
Chairman Pao weren't doing it because she's Asian, they were doing it because
they didn't agree with her leadership style and were comparing it to the style
of an oppressive dictator.

You are the one who saw it as a racial thing, the problem is with you.

------
Torgo
>It is time to rethink the “good leader” prototype of being masculine,
dictatorial, and charismatic.

Good luck, there's a reason those attributes are dominant.

~~~
n00b101
_" >It is time to rethink the “good leader” prototype of being masculine,
dictatorial, and charismatic.

Good luck, there's a reason those attributes are dominant."_

I agree, and I think it is a ridiculous and offensive conclusion that the
authors are making here. They are perpetuating a stereotype of Asians based on
a claim that "Eastern cultural norms encourage humility and deference to
authority."

Firstly, this claim is not based on any data. I am reluctant to accept the
stereotype that everyone in Asia is the opposite of "masculine, dictatorial,
and charismatic," especially people who are candidates for positions of
leadership. Did anyone go to Asian companies and see that all their executives
are all feminine, un-charismatic, pushovers?

Secondly, even if we take this claim of an "inferior leadership culture"
seriously, it can only logically apply to unassimilated Asian immigrants. What
about Asian Americans, people who are born here? Are we to believe that they
are all also all "feminine, un-charismatic, pushovers?"

This seems like a post hoc, pseudo-scientific justification for what is really
an executive and baord level diversity issue.

~~~
nylonstrung
>Did anyone go to Asian companies and see that all their executives are all
feminine, un-charismatic, pushovers?

Racist stereotypes don't have to be logical.

>Are we to believe that they are all also all "feminine, un-charismatic,
pushovers?"

When is the last time you've seen media depict an Asian male as sexual virile?
When is the last time you've seen an Asian male kiss a woman on screen in
Western media. For every one instance I can think of 10 depictions of exactly
what you described.

I say this not because the media is solely the cause of these perceptions but
it is clearly representative of the greater societal attitudes at play here.

------
throwaw12ay
America has this weird obsession with race and dividing everything by race.
Since when "Asian" is a race? It's so weird that people in US need to choose
their race on a form when applying for college or even for a job, or on a
census. So you can't be just american, you need to be Asian american or
something american, like being american is not enough to constitute a
nationality or an identity.

~~~
drewrv
The US has a long and nasty history of racism. We need to collect racial data
in order to see if we're fixing it or not. To refuse on principal to collect
race data in education or criminal justice would obscure real problems and be
akin to burying our head in the sand.

~~~
stcredzero
_The US has a long and nasty history of racism._

Culture in the Americas was particularly afflicted by _class_ becoming
associated with _race_. There was rampant indentured servitude in Korea
hundreds of years ago, basically slavery with different formalities. (I've
been told that my surname makes it likely my family is descended from such
people.) No one really cares about it any more, because we are fairly racially
homogeneous. There is something particularly nasty about making an inborn
trait a kind of "brand" of class status.

Racism is weirdly and deeply rooted in US culture. A friend of mine started a
gay Asian men's group in Seattle in the last century. He then had to start a
2nd one with a by-law limiting attendance to Asians, because the 1st one had
become a pick-up scene for middle-aged white men to find a "Rice Queen." My
20's and 30's were punctuated with the occasional weird transgression from
older white men. Much of my youth and childhood were punctuated with rare but
memorable occasions of racial/ethnic harassment. I went on a date with a
fellow musician who was born in Thailand, and in conversation I realized that
an uncomfortably large portion of her flirting history consisted of white men
doing things like putting their hand on her thigh in public while talking
about prostitutes.

There's something about US culture that seems to be enabling for a fairly
extreme level of transgression by some small part of the populace towards
Asians, which also results in ethnic self-hatred in American born Asians. My
current China born girlfriend has a Ph. D. and an MBA, and she thinks the
notion that Asian guys are somehow sexually
inferior/unattractive/noncompetitive to be bizarre. Yet, I've had multiple
discussions on reddit and Hacker News, where commenters promulgated such weird
ideas of inherent Asian inferiority!

The reason why I particularly dislike intellectually bankrupt SJW ideology, is
precisely because I know that it has a point! There _are_ weird racial
attitudes in various subcultures in the US. It is something that is very hard
to pin down and discuss, yet needs to be explored. Representing such a thing
badly is precisely the best way to ensure it never gets discussed usefully.

------
ksk
I think this article is quite poor. It doesn't explain _why_ you would expect
there to be more Asians in the first place. Asians are over-represented in
STEM fields. You could just as well ask a general question about "nerds" not
getting hired into executive positions.

~~~
nylonstrung
Likewise even in finance there is serious overrepresentation at the junior
levels (and overwhelming overrepresentation in terms of applicants) yet the
same near total absence of Asian leadership

------
jeffdavis
Why do we expect uniform outcomes from diverse people?

Say two groups are different enough that, when you put them together, you call
that "diversity". Why do you expect them to be statistically identical when
you divide the groups apart again?

Prejudice in career advancement and other important decisions is bad, of
course. People should be judged on their own merits, not group statistics. But
that doesn't mean that group statistical differences are necessarily due to
prejudice.

~~~
concinds
This.

Why should America reflect world diversity? And how could it? Are there not
enough whites in executive positions in Asia? The question doesn't make sense,
because "enough" is a normative question and it's impossible to find a metric
that's truly "fair".

Equality-of-outcome politics is one of the most dogmatic and dangerous
movements in recent years, and it's incredible that it gained acceptance in
all elite circles without any pushback. It's something that is fundamentally
broken and unjust, because of widespread group differences. Have people here
read the article in OP? They mention differences in education in different
demographic groups. These aren't the only differences, so for example South
Asians may be more likely to be engineers, but will be underrepresented in
other industries, because of differences in majors and career preferences.
Should equality be legislated?

Fight for equality of opportunity, and basta. This is a highly politicized and
dogmatic movement that's trying to engineer the perfect society, and thinks
there won't be any consequences.

~~~
ftrflyr
Yes, yes, yes. I anticipate your comment will be down voted because HN is
predominately liberal.

~~~
pc86
It won't be, because it adds to the discussion and is a coherent point. Yours
(and mine!), on the other hand...

------
brighteyes
This is an important topic, but as often happens, the article just treads the
same old themes. It's looking for answers in the usual places, when it's not
clear the answers are there.

First of all, Asian Americans are still overrepresented in tech leadership
positions. Just less than they are overrepresented in tech positions in
general. So looking for a negative (discriminatory) effect may be the wrong
thing - we may need to look for less of a positive effect instead. That's
harder to do, of course.

Second, while the stereotypes described in the article may well play a role
here, there are other explanations that are overlooked but may matter as much
or more. We know that height is a significant factor in earning and in
particular in getting to leadership positions. It's of comparable effect to
the gender gap, but not as studied, because it's not "interesting" \- US
culture is focused on looking for discrimination on the familiar axes of race,
gender and sexuality. But just like height might explain women's relatively
low leadership rates, it might explain Asian American's, as they tend to be
shorter.

~~~
n00b101
> _" Asian Americans are still overrepresented in tech leadership positions."_

No, the article clearly states that they are under-represented. It cites 2015
report on diversity looking at 5 Silicon Valley companies: Google, Hewlett-
Packard, Intel, LinkedIn, and Yahoo. The report finds that, "Asians and Asian
Americans are well represented in lower-level positions but _underrepresented
at management and executive levels._ Asian Americans (including Indians) are
27% of the workers in these companies, but only 19% of managers and 14% of
executives. In contrast, whites represented 62% of professionals and 80% of
executives in these firms."

> " _We know that height is a significant factor in earning and in particular
> in getting to leadership positions. It 's of comparable effect to the gender
> gap..._"

Height being a "confounding variable" in discrimination against both Asians
and women seems like an interesting theory, but it doesn't fit the facts from
the article :"This is worse than the glass ceiling effect that’s been
identified for women; in these five firms, men are 42% more likely to have an
executive role than women, and _white men and women are 154% more likely than
Asians to hold an executive role. And Asians represent only 1.5% of corporate
officer positions in the Fortune 500_ "

I am also reluctant to accept your stereotype of "short Asian men" (South and
East Asian) without seeing any data specifically on the distribution of
heights of _American_ Asian males versus American white males. I suspect that
the difference is not as large as you make it out be.

~~~
brighteyes
> No, the article clearly states that they are under-represented. It cites
> 2015 report on diversity looking at 5 Silicon Valley companies: Google,
> Hewlett-Packard, Intel, LinkedIn, and Yahoo. The report finds that, "Asians
> and Asian Americans are well represented in lower-level positions but
> underrepresented at management and executive levels. Asian Americans
> (including Indians) are 27% of the workers in these companies, but only 19%
> of managers and 14% of executives.

Yes, but Asian Americans are just 4.7% of the US population [1]. So even 14%
of executives is 3x their expected representation. That's a very high amount
of overrepresentation! Just it's smaller than their overrepresentation
elsewhere.

[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demography_of_the_United_State...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demography_of_the_United_States)

> Height being a "confounding variable" in discrimination against both Asians
> and women seems like an interesting theory, but it doesn't fit the facts
> from the article :"This is worse than the glass ceiling effect that’s been
> identified for women

Oh, definitely I don't think we have anywhere near the data to claim it is
100% of the explanation here - which would mean it could be disproved using
the method you used.

All I am saying is that we know height has a major effect on income and
leadership position attainment. This is true in business, politics, everywhere
basically. So for shorter than average populations, it is plausible it
explains part of their lower income or leadership attainment. (Does it explain
all of it? No reason to think that.)

And I am saying that this is an often-ignored factor, which shows that we
aren't actually looking at this topic objectively. We have cultural blinders.

------
Spooky23
Senior leadership is a club. People like to work with their friends, and the
qualification to be a high level person in many situations has low correlation
to skill.

Once you get in the club, you move up. I think South Asian asians do better
here as many have excellent language skills. East Asians have a disadvantage
there, and cultural friction makes it hard for "ABC" chinese. IMO it's less a
glass ceiling for asians and more that people will take care of their tribe
first. (ie. companies who only want to talk to Stanford alum, etc)

You see this in government. One city agency that I consulted with had a
disproportionate number orthodox jewish folks and east africans in leadership
positions -- associates of the boss and deputy boss. In a county in another
state, all of the leadership of verticals were Indian from a specific region
whose name escapes me.

Corporations are different, because corporate leadership is more incestuous
and boards lack real power over hiring anyone outside the club, unlike a
Mayor, Governor, etc who has total control.

~~~
samspenc
> cultural friction makes it hard for "ABC" chinese

Can you clarify what you mean by "cultural friction"? I always thought that
"ABCs" and "ABCDs" (Indians born in the US) were better at integrating with
workplaces here than those coming from Asia?

~~~
Spooky23
I'm not an expert on this (Not a psychologist, don't play one on TV), but I
took a lot of East Asian studies classes and did a fairly substantial research
project as an undergrad on the topic. Our team interviewed about 120 young
Chinese people at our university and neighboring schools. About 75% were ABC,
25% immigrants. As I recall, the dominant theme from the ABC kids was a
dichotomy of different expectations and pressures.

Examples:

\- They found themselves in a position of go-between with folks outside their
family at a young age. One person described being the translator for their dad
in buying a car at age 10.

\- They had an intense pressure to succeed. They felt that family was
struggling mostly to provide them with the tools for success. One person's
mother worked 90 hours a week in traditional immigrant gigs at a laundromat
(pressing shirts overnight) and restaurant.

\- Simultaneously, the older generation of grandparents and family abroad saw
them as decadent americans. People outside the family saw them as foreigners
-- they would be asked in the street if they spoke english or knew about
America. Many described rebuke for their clothing, differences in education,
etc. A few talked about over-compensating and trying to be "the ultimate white
kid", but not really identifying with that persona.

I walked away from that project with a deep and profound respect for the folks
we talked to and the differences in perspective and even thought process. My
grandparents were immigrants and talked to me often about their experience...
but being an Irish immigrant in 1940s NYC, while a struggle is a very
different when you're bridging language and big cultural gaps. My parents,
aunts and uncles very clearly identified as Americans, and nobody inside of
outside the family questioned that.

------
sametmax
How many white or black do you see in a leadership position in China ? In
India ? In Thailand ? This is not an american thing.

~~~
hirsin
I'd place a bet that relative to the Chinese, Indian, or Thai citizenry,
whites are overrepresented in management positions.

And talk about comparing apples and oranges - India is less than 3% "non-
brown" including SE/E Asian, black, and white. China, 7%. Thailand, 1-2%. The
US is >35% non-white, which is why under-representation shows and matters so
much. Chinese/Indian/Thai management and government look a lot like their
populations, whereas American equivalents do not.

~~~
mc32
I think you're making a mistake in looking at color to investigate bias. All
those countries have internal minorities who superficially might look similar
to you but are not to locals. And government does not always look like those
proportions.

~~~
hirsin
Being part Indian I'm well aware of the different ethnicities. That said, a
more nuanced answer likely wouldn't have meant much to someone engaging in
whataboutism

------
douche
Take a look at the demographics of the Ivy League and the other schools in the
traditional pipeline to leadership and power. Give it twenty years.

This will also start getting well into the meat of the second and third
generations of those who came to the US after the relaxation of exclusionary
immigration laws[1].

[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asian_immigration_to_the_Unite...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asian_immigration_to_the_United_States#Phasing_out_of_exclusionary_policies_.281943-1965.29)

------
chrisco255
Statistical fallacies abound in this article. One thought I had while reading
it, is that what is the average tenure in those companies among Asians vs.
whites? It can take years to get into leadership roles. Leadership numbers are
lagging indicators. A lot of immigration has occurred in the last 15 years,
especially with the H1-B visas and my theory is that Asian makeup of companies
has increased steadily in that time frame.

~~~
nylonstrung
Do you think Silicon Valley had a shortage of Asians in 2000?

The thought process behind what you said is correct but not in light of the
fact that Asians have been one of the most educated groups in the country for
over 20s years.

There still is a severe underrepresentation even when you factor that into
account

~~~
chrisco255
I don't think the percentage of entry-level technical employees was 27% in
2000, based on immigration trends, I highly doubt it.

------
omot
Asians are 5% of US population, Sundar Pichai and Satya Nadella are CEO of
major tech companies. I'm Asian and I feel like our demographic is
overrepresented in some sense.

------
microtherion
It would be interesting to correlate this with time of residency in the US. Of
the companies cited, Google and Intel are in the top 20 H1B visa sponsors, so
a sizable percentage of those Asian American employees might have been in the
US for only a few years (and hired specifically to be individual contributors)
[http://www.myvisajobs.com/Reports/2016-H1B-Visa-
Sponsor.aspx](http://www.myvisajobs.com/Reports/2016-H1B-Visa-Sponsor.aspx)

------
dsl
Why aren't more black women leading companies in Asia?

------
voidr
Lot of these studies overlook the fact that it might have more to do with
culture than race, also, I didn't see them try to do their experiments in
reverse, maybe 'Asians' have bad stereotypes towards others that set them back
as well.

> As the population of workers in the United States changes, so too should
> models for leaders.

There is no proof for this, maybe there is a reason why in general us white
boys are better at leading people. What people overlook as well is that
leadership is not just unicorns and rainbows, as a leader you will get a ton
of abuse from your bosses and have to deal with the complaints of your
subordinates, maybe white men in general are just better at handling this.

Maybe we would be better off with more 'Asian' or 'women' leaders, but maybe
not, there is no proof that having a white men majority in leadership roles is
a bad thing for society.

> In the meantime, businesses should focus on determining the competencies
> needed to fulfill a leadership job and then select leaders who fit the
> requirements rather than leadership stereotypes. If we do this, it is likely
> that more minorities and women will reach the top.

It's not always the most competent people who ascend to leadership roles.
There is a good reason for this: the most highly skilled people sometimes just
lack social skills and as a result would be lousy leaders.

I'd wish there would be studies that would look at people in a rock, paper and
scissors kind of way that would ignore race and focus on culture instead,
something like Myers–Briggs.

------
brilliantcode
Looking at history of US, Asian Americans are going through what Jewish
Americans did 100 years ago.

