
Non-invasive nerve stimulation boosts learning of foreign language sounds: study - lelf
https://medicalxpress.com/news/2020-08-non-invasive-nerve-boosts-foreign-language.html
======
iandanforth
This is near-quackery. The vagus nerve is composed of ~100k fibers of which
about 80% are afferent fibers from organs. Each of the fibers conveys
information in a fairly well ordered manner as do most neurons. Imagine if you
will a highway with 100k lanes entering an absolutely massive city. Then you
periodically turn on and off an earthquake machine which causes some cars on
the roads to go faster, some to crash, and some to slow down. Then you observe
the behavior of the city's economic output to see what happens. In one study
one measure of the economy increases and you publish a paper about it.

There is both a scale disconnect (the signal being introduced by the
electrodes vs the thousands of isolated communication channels which operate
independently) and a causal disconnect (you have no idea what happens between
the disruption and the observed behavior). A lot of TMS studies suffer from
these methodological flaws as well.

Rather than saying things like this "opens the door to improving cognitive
performance across a wide range of domains" they should be saying "we have no
idea why this works at all, and you should absolutely not try this at home."

~~~
roddylindsay
A simpler and cheaper brain-stimulating intervention to improve language
learning has been known in the literature since 1972. No fancy electronics
necessary.

“The results of this study are interpreted as confirming the hypothesis that
the ingestion of small amounts of alcohol, under certain circumstances, does
lead to increased ability to authentically pronounce a second language.”[1]

Note that the improvement only happens after consuming exactly 1.5oz of
cognac. Anything more than that and performance drops precipitously.

[1][https://deepblue.lib.umich.edu/bitstream/handle/2027.42/3404...](https://deepblue.lib.umich.edu/bitstream/handle/2027.42/34041/0000318.pdf?sequence=1&isAllowed=y)

~~~
Ma8ee
Does it have to be cognac, or can I use some other brandy?

~~~
mumblemumble
Per the paper, the treatment was actually a punch that was half liquor, half
other things. The liquor was a mix of cognac and light and dark rums.

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arthurcolle
Interesting. There's a whole class of these non-invasive field methods to
affect human brains -
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transcranial_magnetic_stimulat...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transcranial_magnetic_stimulation)
is another similar idea.

I have this cool book that I've recommended before on this site called
Neurochronometrics of Mind or something close to that which discusses a lot of
the data around these methods. It's super dense but I was interested in trying
to build a device 10 years ago and was discouraged by most. Seems like the
data points to it potentially yielding a plethora of positive outcomes if done
properly, but probably not by a non-clinician. Really interesting stuff.
Imagine watching your own brainwaves with a 4096 channel OpenBCI kit
(openbci.org iirc) and then engaging in a biofeedback experiment where
depending on how you consciously react to seeing your various brainwaves in
real-time, the hypothetical combo device also has a series of rTMS tori that
each selectively expose you to varying gauss levels (give me some rope here
I'm not a mad scientist) that the various parts of your brain get exposed to.
Not sure how applicable or useful it might be but it's interesting to think
about. A colleague of mine worked on visualization of brain waves for
technological applications and told me it was a pretty wild experience to see
your brain waves in real-time while also watching them in parallel, so I
imagine creating a tight feedback loop with an inbound magnetic field in
response to your thoughts might have some weird and possibly pretty trippy
effects.

Disclaimer: don't do this, this is probably how you get spontaneously
generated warp singularities appearing in your lab

~~~
mbrumlow
My wife is having a TMS treatment right now.

Feom what I can tell _something_ has changed, and she seems happier.

~~~
DetroitThrow
ECT is one of the most effective treatments we have for depression, and TMS
certainly promises to allow a procedure that's similarly effective but less
invasive/without anesthesia - reducing costs significantly.

You can become manic from ECT, and I'd assume you can with TMS as well, but
I'm sure your wife's psych knows all about the risks.

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wst_
It looks to me like listening practice, really. This is something that people
usualy do when they want to learn a new language - we are learning languages
not by sitting in class but through immersion. I'm wondering how the results
would look like if they'd introduce third group - people who actively
watch/listen to Chinese TV shows or podcasts.

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valine
I’d bet this is useful for a range of memorization tasks other than language
learning. I imagine this works because it strengthens the signal to noise
ratio by pairing auditory stimulus with vagus nerve stimulation. It’s kind of
like how reading something out loud can help you remember it, only in this
case it’s like you are reading aloud and listening to someone else read at the
same time.

I wonder if it could be used to improve reading comprehension. Say you are
reading a story, maybe each character has their own waveform, and as you read
or listen the stim pulse changes based on who is talking.

Or lets say you are reading a math textbook. You could label different
variables with different stim pulses, which might make it easier to follow
complex logic or minimize the need to re-read different sections.

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kanobo
Imagine if scientists could one day figure out how to expand the linguistic
critical period into adulthood, we could all be polygots.

~~~
recuter
I'm a polyglot and half my languages were learned as an adult. I really think
you just need to immerse yourself for a few months.

It feels so so strange to me that the science is apparently still out on that.

~~~
lgessler
That doesn't change the fact that during the critical period people are
muuuuch better at acquiring language than after. Moreover, while people are
fairly equal in their ability to acquire a language during the critical
period, there is _much_ more variance in ability, all else being equal, after
the critical period. The science isn't still out on that.

~~~
recuter
Maybe they are just much better at not being so easily discouraged.

And as for the study:

By the end of the training, those participants were 13% better on average..
There's a general feeling that people can't learn the sound patterns of a new
language in adulthood, but our work historically has shown that's not true for
everyone," Chandrasekaran said. "In this study, we are seeing that tVNS
reduces those individual differences more than any other intervention I've
seen."

"In general, people tend to get discouraged by how hard language learning can
be, but if you could give someone 13% to 15% better results after their first
session, maybe they'd be more likely to want to continue."

Sounds like placebo to me. ROMANES EUNT DOMUS.

~~~
lgessler
I think it's hard to bring this study to bear on the critical period
hypothesis in toto since its scope is narrow in both time and grammatical
breadth (just sound production, and no other parts of comprehension or
production), so we should maybe leave that aside.

You're right that the critical period hypothesis is still not settled, but
let's go back to your proposal, that anyone who's immersed and motivated
enough will be able to acquire nativelike proficiency. While we're in the
realm of anecdotes (since you make reference to your own experience), I
witnessed several peers of mine in a months-long language immersion program
fall behind others in the program by quite a margin, with (IMO) little hope of
nativelike proficiency even with months more of intensive classes, despite
apparent motivation (sometimes much more than the better performers) and 24/7
immersion in the target language.

Going beyond anecdotes now, let's consider results from the literature against
the assumption that if only adults could not be so easily discouraged they
would be able to attain more nativelike proficiency. In that case, we'd expect
at least a few places in time and space to have second language learners who
do a phenomenal job of acquiring the target language, yet as far as I know
that's never been found in the literature. Birdsong[0] reports that the range
of attested rates of nativelike proficiency in L2 learners is between 5% and
25%. Moreover, there's a wealth of literature that documents in detail the
specific ways in which language acquisition mechanisms falter beginning around
age 6[1], which is in line with the suggestion that nativelike proficiency
becomes progressively harder with age.

Neither of these results pushes your suggestion beyond plausibility, of
course, but it does seem to me like the preponderance of evidence is on one
side. If you know of any studies with findings that support the idea that
motivation can be a decisive factor in acquiring nativelike proficiency in a
second language I'd be really interested to see them.

[0]:
[https://web.stanford.edu/~hakuta/www/research/publications/(...](https://web.stanford.edu/~hakuta/www/research/publications/\(1999\)%20-%20CONFOUNDED%20AGE%20LINGUISTIC%20AND%20COGNITIVE%20FACTORS%20IN%20.pdf)

[1]:
[https://www.jstor.org/stable/pdf/44488300.pdf?casa_token=YS2...](https://www.jstor.org/stable/pdf/44488300.pdf?casa_token=YS2OKj08pwUAAAAA:2lw0ukUSquDhgXDK1nwsNKgpr8iKG3wYlGc4Noj-
JuTEx8asUfPrsGA1aitlrALTGaplVv7Uvh2xACytBdIf48CTqvb7pqlmnPBp6ELe3kdHzQdCTlc)

~~~
recuter
> In that case, we'd expect at least a few places in time and space to have
> second language learners who do a phenomenal job of acquiring the target
> language, yet as far as I know that's never been found in the literature.

Respectfully, your literature is gobbledygook. :)

If the preponderance of evidence is on one side perhaps the academic
researches need to get out more and collect better evidence.

I suggest as a start going to touristy places in developing countries (SEA,
Peru, 'etc) where the guides are economically incentivised to speak half a
dozen languages. I've encountered this sort of person over and over. They
simply had to learn, as adults, and so they did.

Bet you'd learn French too if you worked for tips and your kid was hungry tout
de suite!

And as for literature, try cracking a few books open from previous centuries
that involved extensive travel for the author.

~~~
bynormous
I was intrigued in your experience as a polygot and was buying your arguments
until I read your suggestion to listen to guides then that completely reversed
it because almost all the many many guides I've had are definitely not fluent
in their non-native language in the same way children gain fluency. Most have
broken language in the same way older immigrants have broken language despite
the fact that are forced to navigate in their adopted language full-time.

~~~
recuter
Have to start your search somewhere. Watch out for an older distinguished-
looking gentleman giving proper tours, not the fellows that accost you at the
exit of the bus/train station with a few simple sentences.

If I was a researcher with no travel budget I'd try cross referencing a list
of medium-small touristy towns (like Cusco) with decades that had upticks in
tourism and a very bad local economy. Narrow it down to above-average income
college grads and start asking them if they are or know of a polyglot. Can
probably get pretty far with nothing but Facebook.

Just a guess, maybe I'm wrong about this pattern. Let me know what you find
out. ;)

Edit: I was also intrigued by your comment until I read "in the same way older
immigrants have broken language" \- this is indeed the common but rather
narrow experience. I don't think I'll be able to convince you of anything.
Best assume you are corresponding with the Loch ness monster.

~~~
bynormous
My work requires me to travel with guides, I have no idea if they are all
above average income 'gentlemens' as you say (before you edited it out) so I
can't really comment on that. I'm an immigrant myself along with my community
so there's that. If you consider that a 'narrow' view not sure what more to
say. There's a difference between fluency and native-like fluency that kids
obtain. I would love you to post recordings of you speaking and ask the public
to see if they can tell if you're a native speaker or not because I genuinely
am curious.

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mjoxley
tVNS devices are available to buy at [https://vagus.net](https://vagus.net)

~~~
lvturner
It seems similar devices are available on Amazon for considerably less - any
idea why the significant hike in price?

~~~
mjoxley
Devices on amazon are repurposed tENS devices which control voltage rather
than current. tVNS is an emerging area of research and to repeat studies you
need to understand the "dosage" which means the current delivered, because the
same voltage can result in different currents depending on resistance. The
accuracy of the biphasic waveform is also a factor.

~~~
lvturner
I checked your bio and this is obviously an area you know a great deal about,
and one I'm interested in.

Do you happen to have any high-level resources on the differences, pros & cons
of TENS/tVNS/tDCS/PEMF and why one would be chosen over the other?

I'm slowly starting to piece things together, but frankly I'm a bit
overwhelmed by it all

~~~
mjoxley
Thanks. They're all experimental and YMMV. What's exciting with tVNS cf tDCS
is that you can use HRV as a measure of efficacy.

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knolax
Every time I read a neuroscience paper I remember that one study where they
had neuroscientists try and fail to reverse engineer some classic arcade games
with their methods.

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smabie
I use a tdcs device 20 minutes a day while doing dual n-back practice, and
would recommend this regimen to others who are interested in boosting working
memory.

Tdcs devices are really flexible and different electrode placements have
different effects. Check out [https://totaltdcs.com/](https://totaltdcs.com/)
for more info.

~~~
dr_dshiv
[https://tdcsbrain.com/product/apex-type-a-4ma-
std](https://tdcsbrain.com/product/apex-type-a-4ma-std)

Looking at this product, it seems failsafe. You just put the sponges on your
scalp and adjust the voltage?

~~~
smabie
I've never used that particular device, but generally you soak the sponges in
a saline solution, place the electrodes on the desired locations, and choose
your desired voltage. Anything under 4ma is considered safe, though I
personally never go past 2ma.

I use the improved attention montage: [https://totaltdcs.com/electrode-
placement-montage-list/impro...](https://totaltdcs.com/electrode-placement-
montage-list/improved-attention/)

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johnnujler
That day when no wants to put any effort into anything will be a fun day in
the history of mankind.

~~~
totetsu
Perception of phonetic features which are not markedly meaningful in your
native language is a very hard thing. It's not just a matter of putting in
effort of not.

