
MacBook Pro - rl3
http://www.apple.com/macbook-pro/
======
npgatech
This event was by far the most disappointing Mac event in the history. A lot
of the time was wasted in:

\- Mildly funny jokes and comparison with 90's technology.

\- 90% of the talk was about the touch bar.

\- Awful demos of Photoshop & some cringy DJ.

I was hoping we would see:

\- A new MacBook with all day battery life and touch bar, even thinner design.
Ok, I understand that they are trying to consolidate their product line but
the category of a web-browsing machine that is 12", super small design and an
adequate processor is left without any update.

\- A MacBook pro with some real innovation. They could just copy Microsoft
with a detachable screen (oh but they would cannibalize iPad market), pen
input, touch screen. But, instead we get this touchbar thing which is great
but I am just disappointed that it is the only thing they have innovated here.

\- Killed Macbook Air.

\- No iMac update (!!!).

\- No monitor announcement.

Microsoft really hit it out of the park yesterday. Apple's entire presentation
felt like they are trying to fill the 1.5 hours of time with bullshit.

Also, Panos Panay sounds like a genuine, authentic, passionate and
knowledgeable whereas Jony Ive sounds like an Evangelical designer who feels
"fake". I don't know how to explain it.

~~~
rayiner
> Microsoft really hit it out of the park yesterday.

Did we watch the same event? Microsoft introduced a $3,000 desktop PC in an
era when nobody uses desktops anymore. It introduced a minor update to the
Surface Book that _starts_ at $2,300 with dual-core CPU, only 8GB of RAM, and
last-gen graphics hardware.

For the same price as the new Surface Book i7, I can get an MBP 15" with
bigger screen, twice the RAM, and a quad-core CPU, and it's _Microsoft_ that
hit it out of the park?!

~~~
throwanem
> Microsoft introduced a 28" desktop PC

No. Microsoft introduced an entirely new _kind_ of tool for digital artists.
I'm not one myself, but the Surface Studio makes me wish I were. And the
people I know who are, are over the moon about it. They can't _wait_ to get
their hands on one.

Yes, it's Microsoft that hit it out of the park, and made Apple look amazingly
weak by comparison. Today's event wouldn't have been particularly impressive
even on its own. By comparison with yesterday's, it's just embarrassing.

~~~
bilbo0s
I'm a digital artist myself. I'm a more goal based guy, so I use both Windows
and Mac hardware and software. I know that I am probably the target market for
both the Macbook Pro and the Surface Studio, but I have to say, I'm not
impressed. And I'd argue that the only people who are would have to be
Microsoft or Apple fans. Certainly not tech based artists.

First, this is a business for me. And I suspect it's a business for anyone
that Apple or Microsoft expects to sell this stuff to. And having to pay $3000
for outdated hardware is a tough pill to swallow. The hardware in the Macbook
"Pro" is simply inexcusable. (REALLY???? 16GB RAM MAX!?!?!?) But the hardware
in the Surface Studio is equally galling. They give you an NVidia what? 965
for $3000??? And the BEST I could even POSSIBLY get would be a 980??? And for
that magnanimous gesture on their part I would be obliged to pay a MINIMUM of
$4100??? For LAST GENERATION graphics cards???? On a machine purportedly about
graphics???? (A 1080 would run both faster AND cooler using LESS power
Microsoft. And at this point in time, for a business investment 64GB of RAM
should really be offered by anyone NOT trying to screw you. What's the deal
Microsoft???)

I think to objective observers who were waiting for these presentations...
both proved SEVERELY underwhelming considering the pent up expectations. I
mean... OK... if you put a gun to my head, I'll probably buy the Surface
Studio. But don't expect me to pretend that I don't know that both Microsoft
and Apple are robbing me.

Sorry for the rant.

~~~
dperfect
I think you (and a few others here) are making the mistake of equating
_digital art_ with a need for high-end _graphics cards_. 99% of what most
digital artists consider to be "digital art" does not require state-of-the-art
GPUs. Graphic design work, retouching, painting, etc. barely even scratch the
surface of what the last generation of graphics cards could handle.

Let's call high-end graphics cards for what they really are: gaming console
graphics hardware stuffed into PCs. Apart from a relatively small number of
professionals who work with 3D rendering, high-end graphics cards are an even
greater waste of money (unless of course you're buying the machine for gaming,
which doesn't really fit the "digital artist" target of these machines).

Microsoft and Apple may still be pricing these products too high ("robbing
you" as you say), but that's a separate discussion.

~~~
bilbo0s
"...I can't help but notice that you (and others here) are making the mistake
of equating digital art with a need for high-end graphics cards. 99% of what
most digital artists consider to be "digital art" does not require state-of-
the-art GPUs. Graphic design work, retouching, painting, etc. barely even
scratch the surface of what the last generation of graphics cards could
handle..."

I can't help but notice that you are equating that 99% of "digital art" that
can be handled by mobile graphics cards, to the 1% of "digital art" that
anyone's going to actually PAY someone to produce. As I said, this is a
business. If I could make the living I currently make retouching photos, then
I'd gladly pay $3000 for an underpowered machine...

but I can't.

because no one is going to pay us that kind of money to retouch photos are
they?

Look, these machines, to a business, are INVESTMENTS. You invest for the
FUTURE, not to take advantage of the past. A 1070 or 1080 is not too much to
ask considering Pascal's MANIFEST superiority in efficiency. Additionally, I
was being kind, I think MS should OFFER 64GB in the Surface Studio, but a
128GB option would really be necessary to future proof this thing.

I'll tell you what MS and Apple are going for here... it's a money grab. And
they are setting themselves up to come back to guys like me every 18 to 24
months for another mandatory money grab instead of just giving us a 60 month
machine from the outset.

Offer me a 60 month Surface Studio at the $3000 price point and I'd update
every workstation here. But that's not what they're offering is it?

~~~
mangeletti
What kind of art are you talking about? I've done much graphic design (yes,
paid) and used Photoshop and Illustrator for nearly a decade (though I now use
Affinity, as of last year), and I have never been in a situation where I was
running out of resources.

Up until this year, I have never owned a machine with more than 8GB of RAM,
and never a video card with more than 1GB of RAM until now either.

Are you perhaps talking about video editing or CGI rendering?

~~~
danudey
Our artists at work were drowning with 8 GB of RAM. Upgrading them to 16 GB
made a substantial difference for them.

Then again, with Chrome taking up >4GB of RAM, they probably could have gotten
half that performance just by closing their browser or using Safari.

~~~
themodelplumber
> Then again, with Chrome taking up >4GB of RAM, they probably could have
> gotten half that performance

Can confirm. Got up to 15GB RAM usage today, before closing 30+ tabs to get
back down to 7GB. Maybe it's ridiculous, but based on the information I'm
needing from those tabs--100% text--it's infuriating.

Oh, and also sitting awfully comfortably in that 7GB area is Dropbox, which is
doing who knows what with all of its RAM...I do like the Linux command line
tool though.

~~~
brynjolf
I had same issue but at home where my work flow is different. My solution was
to use the extension "The great suspender" which sleeps tabs that hasn't been
used in a while. Might help you too.

------
ynniv
Apple has replaced the MacBook Pro with a faster MacBook Air labeled "Pro". I
have no idea how they could think that professionals would use a MacBook Air
(no ports, shallow keyboard, no expansion, no innovative features, marginally
lighter). A tiny ribbon display is completely useless to me. They removed the
escape key. Twenty years of using Macs and I'm not sure what my next laptop is
going to be.

~~~
computmaxer
Four standard (non-proprietary) multi-use ports is a complaint?

No innovative features? What do you call a ribbon display that no one has ever
done before?

No expansion - nothing new to the MBP line.

~~~
twic
> No innovative features? What do you call a ribbon display that no one has
> ever done before?

A gimmick.

~~~
jwalton
A $600 USD gimmick, it seems.

~~~
igravious
Seems the price differential between the 2 port TB-3 13" and the 4 port TB-3
13" w\ Touch Bar & Touch ID is $300 USD.

If I'm not mistaken. I went o_O … Seems steep. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

~~~
vilhelm_s
The model with the touchbar also has a faster CPU, I guess some of the price
difference is due to that.

------
blocke
The touch bar examples shown are a usability disaster. You're going to hide UI
from the screen and make me keep looking at the keyboard to find
functionality?

I stopped looking at the keyboard every 10 seconds when I learned how to touch
type.

The presenter spent most of his time looking at the keyboard and not the
screen.

This gimmick will disappear when Apple decides a touch screen is needed to
complete the slow merge with iOS.

~~~
coldtea
> _The touch bar examples shown are a usability disaster. You 're going to
> hide UI from the screen and make me keep looking at the keyboard to find
> functionality?_

That's the wrong way to think of it.

It's not a keyboard, it's an adaptive toolbar. And it's close to what
professionals in several industries pay handsomely for -- control surfaces,
only this one is also adaptive.

> _I stopped looking at the keyboard every 10 seconds when I learned how to
> touch type._

It's obviously NOT meant for typing heavy workloads. Secretaries and
programmers coding will not use it when doing their thing.

~~~
Eldandan
These professionals in several industries paid handsomely for the Adaptive
keys on the 2nd generation Lenovo Thinkpad X1 Carbon. So much so that Lenovo
had to remove adaptive keys for the next iterations.

~~~
B1FF_PSUVM
Eh. In the days when the animals talked, there were keyboards with generic
function keys in a top row, with enough space around them for a plastic
template sheet labeling the keys with functions for specific software.

Some templates came pre-printed for specific packages, some were blanks for
pencil-your-own. Rarely used, but at least those thingies were cheap and did
not remove real keys.

~~~
agumonkey
Such things were even part of marketing features, lots of old calculators had
them. HP calculators even had dedicated modules paired with custom ....
stickers (or overlays) to adapt "like" the touchbar.

------
untog
I know USB-C is the future, but it's going to be a long, long, long time
before all our devices are using it - particularly external displays. My
current Macbook Pro has an HDMI port. I use it every day. I do not want to
carry a converter dongle with me everywhere (I did that with my old Air that
only had a DisplayPort).

To echo other complaints: this is supposed to be a professional machine. I
don't care about it being several mm thinner, especially when it comes at the
cost of useful ports and a great keyboard. Give me a device that I can use,
day in day out. Don't take away the damn escape key to trial out a new "touch
bar" that inputs emojis, and don't bump the price up by this much when you
know I'm going to have to go out and buy a host of $20 dongles when I buy the
thing.

~~~
karmelapple
And the wild thing is, the ports introduced today aren't even USB-C; they're
Thunderbolt 3 ports.

Thunderbolt 3 and USB-C are not the same, right?

~~~
potatolicious
No, but the ports are dual-mode. Plug a USB-C thing into it and it's a USB
port. Plug a Thunderbolt device in and it's a Thunderbolt port.

Similar to the dual-mode mini-DP/Thunderbolt ports of the past.

The ports introduced today absolutely are USB-C.

~~~
anonymfus
If all USB ports on machine are also thunderbolt ports, it looks like a
security problem.

------
nkw
Wow. I hate to say it, but I thought the products in Microsoft's event
yesterday were way more exciting than anything from Apple lately. This plus
macOS Sierra seems like a whole lot of "meh". This coming from a guy whose
first computer was an Apple IIe, who owned a Mac Cube, and whose daily driver
is a trashcan MacPro.

~~~
josho
Sadly I have to agree. I wonder if Jobs really was that much of a visionary
that the company is lost for ways to innovate without him.

~~~
tedajax
I try not to buy too much into the Jobs hype because it falls into the same
line of thinking that leads to the "Great Man" theory which I don't put much
stock in.

That said he did seem to have a way of understanding the whole ecosystem that
Apple was trying to sell. In the post Jobs era the number of products and
configurations available is getting pretty unruly and you now have an issue
where you can't plug an iphone 7 out of the box into a new MBP without a
dongle. That's pretty disjointed and strange. The TouchBar also seems to be
misplaced on the MBP which every time I've had one for work is pretty much
immediately folded up and put under a thunderbolt display (now requiring
another dongle) and making the TouchBar worthless.

So yeah I don't know if you need Jobs specifically but you certainly need
someone looking over the entire product range and making sure it makes some
amount of sense.

~~~
josu
>you can't plug an iphone 7 out of the box into a new MBP without a dongle

Amazing

~~~
ythl
> Amazing

ly poor foresight on Apple's part

------
swang
I have the early 2013 MacBook Pro. It is still pretty fast.

Nothing I saw today makes me happy to upgrade as a developer. Sure it's
lighter and thinner and HUUGE trackpad that's a nice to have when I'm
traveling. But the TouchBar requires me to look down at my keyboard which
slows me down. And they can't even leave the keyboard itself alone with the
terrible butterfly implementation coming over from the 12" MacBook. And I am
sure all the Mac developers will enjoy developing apps that both have and do
not have TouchBar. Just wait 5-7 years for all the non-TouchBar based MacBooks
to not be as common.

Then the ports. Apple seems to think that it can force upgrades to technology
like they did with (arguably) floppy drives and cd-rom/dvd drives. But USB
(non-C) is not a dying standard, neither is an SD-card slot. People still use
SD-cards Apple! I don't want to buy dongles all the time. I am shocked they
even bothered to include a headphone jack. Where's your courage now Apple?

All of this has been very off-putting as a developer. And where are the iMac
and Mac Pro updates?

edit: also they got rid of magsafe. i guess thats a split since their magsafe
2 cables were way too loose.

~~~
freshyill
I have no idea with the idea of MagSafe, but on my Retina MacBook Pro (also
early 2013), it's become extremely finicky. About 20% of the time, it just
doesn't charge. I just have to connect and disconnect it a few times and
eventually it works.

~~~
jacobolus
You have dirty contacts or a plug which doesn’t seat properly. Try wiping both
sides with a dry q-tip (this is Apple’s recommendation) or use one soaked in
isopropyl alcohol.

Sometimes little bits of magnetic debris can get stuck in the computer side,
e.g. iron filings, staples, etc. You can try to get these out with Blu-Tack or
similar if the q-tip doesn’t cut it.

~~~
freshyill
I've made a point of keeping it clean ever since it started, but it doesn't
seem to help much.

One time I noticed the connector was wobbly, and I found a very, very small
piece of metal in there. I had hoped was the source of all my problems, but I
think I caught it right when it happened because it didn't fix the problem.

Getting that metal out of there took a good half hour of trial and error. That
magnet is powerful!

------
wkirby
What I wanted:

\- 7th generation Intel chips. Skylake (6th generation) is from August 2015.

\- A move to Nvidia GPUs

\- Retain the magsafe power adapter

\- At least one dedicated display-out port, preferably HDMI

\- 32GB RAM for the 15 inch base model

\- Support for the airpods using their new W1 chip

What I'm mad they included:

\- Price increase for low value

\- Touch Bar does away with physical keys I use daily (most importantly
escape), while providing very little functionality I see using in my daily
workflows (auto-complete on a desktop? I type faster than that.)

What they could have surprised me with:

\- A full touch screen

\- Support for the Apple Pencil on the new larger trackpad

\- Any mention of their desktop lineup

~~~
josu
>32GB RAM

Everybody asking for more RAM, what do you use it for? I have 8GB and they
never seem to become a bottleneck.

~~~
pmontra
The usual culprits are virtual machines, large images, video editing. A little
less common: big data, large matrices, scientific computing in general.

I never hit 16 GB on my laptop (I even disabled swap) but I got close once
with three browsers open (I segregate some web apps into different browsers),
a few VMs, some other random application running. It made me think if it was
time to buy the extra 16 GB I can fit into my laptop. I just checked, it's
about $100.

~~~
josu
I see. So this is also part of the cross-cutting problem everybody is
mentioning here of Apple not catering to the pros.

~~~
drunkenazi
For sure, I regularly sit between 12-16GB used (mainly doing web development +
docker work, large systems, many services), but frequently will be above that
when running a lot inside of VMs.

You are also up against a loosing battle of programs using more RAM to do the
same job. You get a better experience now, but you can also expect normal PC
usage to result in big RAM usage.

------
lostgame
Unbelievably unimpressive compared to Microsoft's announcement yesterday, and
45 minutes into the keynote I still have no idea what the specs are.

I don't need some stupid touch strip on my Mac, I need a touch _screen._

I haven't been this let down by product announcements ever as I have been this
year with everything Apple's done.

Now we get all our standard USB ports removed, very little by way of actual
hardware improvements, are we even going to get an upgraded Mac Pro that might
meet the minimum 4GB gfx card requirement for Oculus, etc?

I've sworn by Apple products for a decade and a half. I'm done.

~~~
lostgame
Didn't think about the 'touch typing' thing others have mentioned...totally
valid.

Furthermore, the lack of a Mac Pro update is just frickin' pathetic.

~~~
Jtsummers
As a touch typist, I'm not sure this'd be an issue for me.

The distance between this Touch Bar and the monitor is minimal. With a bit of
experience with a particular app, I imagine I'd be able to use my peripheral
vision and muscle memory more often than not to achieve any particular
function.

It's not like the distance between my desktop monitor and keyboard. That would
be incredibly annoying as I'd actually have to take my eyes completely off the
monitor to see the Touch Bar in that situation.

~~~
swiley
Try touch typing on phone before you start to believe that.

~~~
Jtsummers
Admittedly not my phone, but I can touch type on my iPad. Not quickly (is
there a way to switch it to dvorak? haven't checked), but it's doable.
Probably 50-60 wpm with decent accuracy thanks to autoincorrect.

It feels weird as hell, though. Not getting any sort of finger travel as I
press the keys.

EDIT: As well, on my phone (switched to a Nexus, not as familiar with it yet
so still feeling it out), I can type pretty quickly without looking _directly_
at the onscreen keyboard. My eyes see it, but my focus is on the text area
itself. I imagine this touch bar will be like that for me, it's not so far out
of my focal point that it'll totally disappear for me, and glancing at it
won't require significant head or eye movement.

------
dchuk
(Posted in another thread, that probably will not make it as high as this)

I think conceptually this is really neat, but it could potentially suffer from
one major flaw: I hardly ever look down at my keyboard. A flat, digital screen
containing changing buttons does not cater well to touch typists, of which you
can reasonably assume most are who use a macbook pro. Touch ID is sweet
though.

~~~
MPSimmons
You are making the assumption that they care about sophisticated users, and I
can't see any evidence that they have for quite a while.

~~~
rsync
Not only does apple not care about sophisticated, or "power" users, it's
becoming more and more clear that there are not many sophisticated users
_within apple itself_.

Let's take multiple monitor support as an example - something that vacillates
between barely working and a dumpster fire, depending on the release of OSX.
Aren't there people _within apple_ that need three screens ? Aren't there
power users _within apple_ that demand this functionality ? We are left to
conclude that zero, or almost zero, people inside of apple are using this kind
of configuration[1] - otherwise there is no way it would be allowed this kind
of dysfunction.

Some other things that we are forced to conclude nobody at apple does:

\- use USB cellular modems/dongles

\- tile windows to hide unnecessary desktop

\- primarily mouse-free usage

\- move files in the finder with 'cut'

\- use the _god damned escape key, for the love of christ_

We all knew this was coming - the day that Apple "mac pro'd" the rest of the
lineup. We got a sneak peak with the 12" macbook. Now the other shoe drops.

[1] For instance, this relatively boring use-case: three primary screens on a
desktop and a large flat panel connected as a secondary display. Kind of sort
of works in snow leopard. Various, random dysfunction in each release of OSX
thereafter.

~~~
rayiner
What's wrong with Apple's multi-monitor support? At least mixed-DPI
configurations have worked fine on Mac for years, unlike with Windows.

Also: (1) USB tethering to an iPhone is just about the easiest cellular
solution there is; (2) Google "Divvy"; (3) a big draw of the touchpad is that
mousing doesn't take your hands that far off the keyboard; (4) real men and
women use Terminal for file management.

~~~
rsync
"What's wrong with Apple's multi-monitor support?"

One thing immediately comes to mind: configure a multiple (3 or 4) monitor
setup (again, not exactly exotic) and then full screen a video in one of the
monitors ... now change focus to a different window in a different physical
screen. Fun ensues. Different fun, depending on OSX release.

USB or bluetooth tethering is great - I'd prefer to use that always - but some
use-cases demand a physical thing stuck into the laptop and the plain old USB
A-type is flexibility I don't like to see deprecated. I'll gladly take 1mm
additional laptop thickness in order to retain those and I think the 11"
macbook air, with one type-A on each side, is a pretty powerful swiss army
knife.

~~~
rarepostinlurkr
I'm not sure why you indicate 3-4 monitors is not exactly exotic. Pretty sure
its the 1% or less. Wouldn't that be the definition of exotic?

Wait'll you see what happens when you rotate them!

We are living in a bubble, our use case is not even remotely close to the
average or above average use case. Looking at the data broadly, this barely
registers as a 'thing'.

Spoken as a multi monitor user too.

------
brentm
I hate to take away from the complaining in here but I actually think it looks
pretty nice. I was pleasantly surprised with the interactions they
demonstrated with the new ribbon display. I knew they were going to announce
it and didn't think I'd care but I will walk away from the video with the
feeling that I want one.

~~~
alejandromaka
congratulations on being the only positive comment in here. thank you.

~~~
Spooks
probably a valid reason for all that negativity...

~~~
cooper12
Not really, all I see is stuff like: "they removed the escape key" (except its
still there, even if it isn't a physical key), "no one looks at the keyboard"
(touch typists aren't the target demographic), "only 8GB ram?!" (again, HN is
not their target demographic), complaining about the removal of ports (not a
surprise at all, and Apple is moving the industry towards USB C), and the
expected "Apple stopped innovating after Jobs!" comments on every Apple event
thread. Personally I found the Touch Bar to be cool in exposing common actions
in a touch-friendly manner.

~~~
Retra
Who is their target demographic?

~~~
cooper12
I can tell you it's not programmers who need the latest CPUs, 32GB RAM,
mechanical keyboards, and every gizmo possible in their laptops. It's
definitely a more casual professional user. (For anyone who truly needs that
kind of power, they have the Mac Pro)

------
dguaraglia
As a heavy Vim user, this might be my last Apple development machine. I can
always remap Caps Lock to Esc, but years of muscle memory > a flashy feature I
have little use for.

There's nothing I'd pay extra for in this new machine: touchbar is a meh,
biometric authentication has been around since ~2005, the hardware specs are
finally catching up with what everyone else has been shipping for a couple
years, the new keyboard is horrible, Siri is the new ubiquitous feature nobody
wants, USB C... meh.

I wonder if 2017 will finally be the year software developers go back to Linux
machines? If only the story for mixed DPI displays was solid, I think it might
finally be The Year of Desktop Linux :P.

~~~
massysett
Linux is not bad. But nobody is making decent Linux hardware, and the instant
you slap Linux onto a Windows machine, battery life plummets. My days buying
Windows machines and struggling to get Linux on them are over. I'd rather buy
a Mac and get a Unix I can use without having to install it.

Is anyone actually selling a decent preinstalled Linux laptop? If I really
wanted to use Linux I would rather buy a Windows laptop and run Linux in a VM.

~~~
JorgeGT
> Is anyone actually selling a decent preinstalled Linux laptop?

I have heard good things about the Ubuntu line of Dell:
[http://www.dell.com/learn/us/en/555/campaigns/xps-linux-
lapt...](http://www.dell.com/learn/us/en/555/campaigns/xps-linux-
laptop?c=us&l=en&s=biz&~ck=mn) The Precision 5510 with a Quadro GPU and 32 Gb
of RAM seems gorgeous.

~~~
dguaraglia
They are OK, but to be honest you might as well get the Windows version from
the Microsoft store and slap Linux on it. For the same price you are getting a
copy of Windows and a somewhat better customer experience.

~~~
thomasahle
How is the customer experience better, when you have to change the OS
yourself, and presumably can only get support for an OS you no longer use?

------
makecheck
When I am at a desk, the lid is closed so both TouchID and touch-anything
effectively don’t matter, including any display information. In fact, I am
worried about applications gradually putting information _only_ on the Touch
Bar that cannot be found anywhere else.

Perhaps they could have placed a TouchID button on the SIDE of the laptop
(usable when open or closed). And hopefully the ENTIRE Touch Bar display is
also available as a global window ON the screen so that it is still able to
display/activate things when you are lid-closed connected to an external
display.

The real shock though is that a lot of these changes show a lack of usability
testing. Like, “10 minutes in the hallway” level of testing. How much
_serious_ work can actually be accomplished with such tiny touch keys that
require you to look down at them, constantly changing and mostly
unpredictable? Before ever creating new hardware for this, they should have
enhanced macOS to provide an on-screen version of this ever-changing toolbar
to encourage more universal support from developers and work out the usability
kinks. Instead, now they’re stuck: this thing is _in_ your laptop, with all
its flaws.

~~~
Someone
That on-screen version would require a full-size touch screen, and eat into
precious vertical screen space.

The naive implementation also would move the mouse whenever you touch the
screen. I think that is loss of usefulness; now, one can select with the
mouse, click a function, select with the mouse, etc. I expect there will be
cases where this will be convenient (but, unfortunately, only when repeating
the same function on each object. Also, power users currently can already do
that by assigning a key combination to the function)

Also, I'm not claiming they did any, but what do you base _" a lot of these
changes show a lack of usability testing."_ on? My gut feeling also tells me
this mostly is a gimmick, but I don't dare claim it is correct.

~~~
makecheck
I never said the on-screen version would support touch (I wouldn’t want it
to). The orientation doesn’t have to be horizontal (my Dock is vertical). For
that matter, it doesn’t even have to be one-dimensional. Every aspect of Touch
Bar is constrained by where Apple wanted to put it, and not what would be the
best experience.

They should have started in pure software, and then they would have figured
out just how many possibilities there really are. Some examples:

\- What if I want my “system-wide ever-changing functions pad” to be a 4x5
grid of icons located in a window at the bottom-left of my screen?

\- What if not every action/status item is ideally laid out in a bar? Maybe
some items are vertically rectangular, some are horizontal, or some are shaped
like triangles. Maybe I want lots of space between things. Maybe I want 4
different contextual areas, all over my screen, instead of being confined to
one region. (This is a PRO laptop...)

\- What if I want complete control over the show/hide mechanism? Examples:
Floating, non-floating (can layer documents on top), sliding in from the side
of the screen, popping up only while a certain key is pressed, attaching to
Dock...

\- What if I want my ENTIRE laptop screen to become a contextual display while
doing working primarily on an external monitor?

Any one of these scenarios could come up when doing real work on a laptop and
_none_ of these can be handled by an expensive Touch Bar control. Conversely,
we already have context-sensitive commands mapped to the keyboard and status
mechanisms (menu bar, window toolbars, other application functions) and the
Keyboard preferences pane lets you map commands any way you want.

~~~
Someone
_" they should have started in pure software"_

Again: what do you base the implicit claim that they didn't do that and/or the
implicit claim that this solution isn't worth the extra hardware costs on?

And again: I think it mostly is a gimmick, but I withhold my conclusion until
I have used it and/or I've heard from many people who have had lots of
experience with it.

------
brian-armstrong
Replacing hardware keys with a touchscreen on a laptop made for power users is
a sign that Apple has lost touch with what made the MacBook Pro popular in the
first place. I think they could have just upgraded to the newest CPU and put a
new battery in and made everyone happy.

~~~
revicon
I think the thing that is being missed here is that Apple doesn't make much
money off of "power users". They make money off people buying movies on itunes
and subscribing to icloud for their photos. Everything Apple is building is
aimed toward that market, emojis and all.

If you feel that Apple isn't designing with you in mind it's probably because
you've outgrown them. Time to look at alternatives.

~~~
dudurocha
You are missing the real statistics. Only 11% of all apple revenues come from
services (app store, Icloud, itunes).

apple makes money from selling phones and computers. If you want to sell a
$1,799 notebook (or even $2,399 for the 15 inch version), they need to think
on power users.

------
overcast
Ugh. I don't know what to do here. I've been waiting for Mac updates for ages,
and this is what we get. My 2008 Mac Pro is maxed out on upgrades, and has
been on the fritz lately. I can't go forever on an 8+ year old machine.
Especially one that is no longer "officially supported" by Apple, and now
requires 3rd party patches to install Sierra and its updates.

Microsoft's Surface presentation yesterday was VERY tempting.

~~~
mrgreenfur
I went hackintosh a few years ago and while it's got tons of it's own
headaches, its a good way to get solid hardware that you can pick out
yourself.

I won't pretend that I ever press 'install updates' without a few hours to
spare and db backups ready.

~~~
Void_
I used Hackintosh for about a year as primary macOS development machine.

Updates were a headache and the inability to install pre-release software.

But with Xcode and Swift being so slow I'm thinking about going back there and
just getting the 4ghz i7...

Another option is a Mac Pro, but I really don't have 3000+ money to spend on a
computer...

~~~
mrgreenfur
If you've already got experience doing hackintoshes you can't beat building
your own Xeon machine and just dealing with a few hours here and there of
update headache.

The price of raw commodity hardware is suuuuper cheap compared to off the
shelf macs. There are even nice mini-itx cases if you want a powerful,
slightly-larger-than-mac-mini machine.

------
davesque
Man...this just feels like such an epic letdown. All the new "killer" features
just seem like gimmicks. I could care less if there's a touch strip (that I
have to look at to use) on my keyboard. I also don't give a shit if I can scan
my fingerprint instead of just typing my password to login. The hardware is
also just not cutting edge (the price _is_ though). Such a huge
disappointment. It seems pretty clear that Apple just doesn't care about their
desktop/laptop business anymore. And all this after months of waiting to
purchase a new laptop since Apple delayed their normal product schedule.

~~~
josho
My last 3 MacBook Pros were purchased just before Apple did a major redesign.
This time around I don't have the usual pang of desire for the new model.

Maybe taking one of msfts new models for a spin might be opportune for you.

------
simonsarris
Interestingly they removed the pricing from their landing page, this morning
the Macbook pro prices (for the old gen) were pretty prominent at the top of
the page, above the fold and above any images of the computer.

The 13 inch now starts at $1,499 (but no touch bar at all unless you spend at
least $1,799), up from $1,299.

The 15 inch now starts at $2,399, up from $1,999.

If you want to compare the copy, you can see the old version cached here:
[http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:z7BWPC9...](http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:z7BWPC9E778J:www.apple.com/macbook-
pro/+&cd=20&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us)

~~~
qz_
Who the hell are they marketing this to?

~~~
Etheryte
The same question struck me. Because it's obviously not meant for the previous
pro audience.

------
justanton
Apple is being run more and more by marketers, rather than by techies.

As a developer, I don't want to see "emojis" on my keyboard, but I do want to
be able to plug in any device I need in that exact moment, without looking for
a right dongle.

Apple needs to stop sacrificing usability for "looks".

~~~
josho
Agreed. The venn diagram of people that can afford the pro and those that care
about emojis is likely rather slim.

However, watching the photoshop demo I could see the value. Honestly though, I
think an add on accessory the size of a trackpad would be better.
Unfortunately, that would sell in numbers so small that software support would
be non-existent. So, this is a compromise solution that doesn't have Apple's
usual boldness to it, rather a lacklustre add on that will deliver lacklustre
results (to both sales and usefulness).

~~~
jakebasile
I don't know, I see emoji infiltrating my tools more and more. For example, I
had to submit a PR to Yarn [1] to add a flag to disable the terrible things.
GitHub uses emoji to indicate the type of commit [2].

I hate it.

Edit: I mean GitHub the company, not the product. Atom is maintained by
GitHub.

[1]:
[https://github.com/yarnpkg/yarn/pull/922](https://github.com/yarnpkg/yarn/pull/922)

[2]:
[https://github.com/atom/atom/commits/master](https://github.com/atom/atom/commits/master)

~~~
majewsky
It's nice how these emoji in [2] do not offer any advantage at all. In fact,
they're worse than the appropriate words ("bump", "fix") because I can't
Ctrl-F for them.

~~~
jakebasile
I really do not understand the attraction to it. It makes things harder to
read and understand. It can destroy terminal formatting. They're harder to
type on physical keyboards.

I don't often use emoji unironically in my personal life, but in computing
tools it should be anathema.

------
daturkel
I think in a few years, we're going to be looking back at this as a half-assed
hack before we were ready for a macbook with a full touch screen. Touch
typists (which I'd imagine are an increasing proportion of computer users)
don't look at the keyboard. Touch cues (ridges on the F and J keys, placement
and size of keys) guide typing and control without the need to look.

Even if you just used the touchbar to allow for context-sensitive buttons, I'd
lose the real tactical feedback of a keyboard and need to build new muscle
memory for each application.

Worse is when you start putting GUIs on the touch bar—now I'm _really_
expected to look down and scroll through a library of photos or find my
favorite website on this tiny strip which _isn 't_ on my screen? Why?

~~~
toufka
Or maybe a full-sized touch 'interface' where the entire keyboard used to be.
Imagine if the entire bottom half of the laptop was one of those touch-pads
with some kind of haptic feedback. You could dynamically have mouse, keyboard,
contextually customized input the entire mirror of the screen itself. Input
below, output above. A curious concept. If this little touch panel merged with
the trackpad (a better placement for it in my mind), you'd have a pretty
powerful input system.

~~~
digi_owl
Was it Lenovo that demoed something like that just recently, or was it some
other asian company?

Edit: Ah found it, the Lenovo Yoga Book.

[http://shop.lenovo.com/us/en/tablets/lenovo/yoga-
book/](http://shop.lenovo.com/us/en/tablets/lenovo/yoga-book/)

~~~
toufka
If done properly, I fully expect that kind of input idea to be inevitable. If
done poorly, it's a total failure and prevents any work from being done. In
order to bridge that gap it seems Apple is starting small.

------
mickronome
/rant mode partially activated

While I want more RAM and better GPU to be able to connect more and bigger
screens, I don't want any gimmicks. If they could get the keyboard to feel
crisp longer, or make it cheaper to replace would also be great. But instead
they add a bar that will probably make keyboard replacement even more
expensive, and then they remove the magsafe which has saved my computer on
several occasions, what's up with that ? Stupidly hunting for a mm thinner
profile ?

I never really like Jobs, but to me he always appeared to want to build
beautiful tools, and while I have not always agreed with the aesthetics and
the hows, they were still tools, and I respected both him and Apple for that.

In contrast to that, Apple today appears to think they are selling a
innovative fashion statement, or maybe a lifestyle ? Completely foregoing the
tools aspect, and now it has reached the MBP line which have been mostly
spared until now.

It's a pity.

------
joeguilmette
If I'm not a professional user I don't know what is - I spend a double digit
percentage of my life on a laptop (wow that's depressing), running multiple
VMs, Terminal, Sketch, Sublime Text, and around 15+ other apps all the time.

I went through two or three MBAs, have a MB, and am excited to be moving to a
new 15" MBP. I am not sure if I'll be keeping the MB.

I am pretty sure my main use case for the ESC key is to close out full screen
windows, which thankfully is still possible with the Touch Bar. I am a
touchtypist - the only time I ever look at the keyboard is to figure out which
function key will adjust the volume/brightness/skip track/pause music. I don't
use the Mission Control function keys and I seldom adjust key brightness or
use the power button.

I have wireless headphones and the only thing I ever plug in to my computer is
my phone to charge it, and even then I usually just plug it in to my little
travel USB/AC surge protector that the MB charges from. I bought a dongle for
the MB and don't mind the negligible amount of space/weight it takes up. I
can't wait for the day when everything (Lightning included) is finally
replaced by USB-C.

Yea, it cost me nearly $4k out the door. Maybe I could save a couple bucks on
another platform, or maybe they could've included newer/faster components. I
stopped giving a shit about which model CPU was in my box around the same time
I stopped building Windows desktops (hint: I was installing XP on them). I
look back fondly on those days but very much enjoy the simplicity of today's
computer, at least in terms of hardware.

Long story short: I consider myself a Pro user, am excited about the MBP, and
really don't mind any of the growing pains that everyone seems so enraged
about. If as many people do jump ship to Msft as are saying it, that's great -
they need the users, and Apple needs the competition.

------
sakisv
Sometimes I really cannot understand the guys at apple:

\- No regular USB ports

\- No HDMI port

\- No F keys

\- No option for more than 16GB RAM

\- No mag-safe

\- More expensive

Why not bump the specs, allow for more RAM, and just add an extra USB-C to
start the adoption slowly?

~~~
yoz-y
Apple was never much into slow adoption.

~~~
sakisv
True, but on the laptops they did it on already declining technologies, like
removing the CD/DVD drive. I don't think that USB is dying any time soon, no
matter how great USB-C is.

I'm actually kinda surprised that they didn't remove the headphone jack. That
would actually be a really effective way to push the adoption of USB-C :)

~~~
oldmanjay
The removal of optical drives was accompanied by all this same hand-wringing
and prognostication of doom, but if there's one thing I've learned over the
last 20+ years, it's that nerds on nerd forums have no idea what people want
and no ability to stop themselves from asserting they do.

~~~
TillE
Nobody except five Apple dorks in the world gives a damn about advising
companies about how best to exploit their markets. We all just want a product
that suits our needs.

No USB-A ports (and no Ethernet) really sucks for a lot of people. Apple will
continue to be a profitable company. These things are not contradictory.

~~~
oldmanjay
Yes, I well understand that you and others are engaged in hand-wringing that
has no real impact on anything. Hence my comment.

------
rayiner
I think the touch bar is gimmicky, but I have to give Apple credit for bucking
the trend of hiding UI and making functionality more rather than less visible
to users. The trend in the mobile OSs has been to hide more and more functions
being hamburger menus (Android), toolbars that only pop up when you tap them
(Apple Maps), cryptic flat icons, etc. It's totally undiscoverable. This is
the opposite: context-sensitive commands that show up and let the user know
what he or she can do.

EDIT: This is how I feel about the "ESC" key thing as an Emacs user:
[https://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/59dp9u/apple_f...](https://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/59dp9u/apple_flips_off_vim_users_removes_escape_key_in).

~~~
willtim
Don't forget the 2014 X1 Carbon had a similar touch strip design that they
reverted due to user backlash. It appears that the new MBP has a similar
keyboard to the MacBook, if you're an Emacs user, you deserve a better
keyboard.

~~~
aljones
It isn't that similiar.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8L-mIqJW1v0](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8L-mIqJW1v0)

~~~
majewsky
I'm so baffled by this... Does Lenovo really use text-to-speech for their
marketing video voice-over?!?

------
mindo
They should have called it "MacBook Hipster". Call me stupid, but this spring
I bought mbp 13" mid-2012 model not because it's the cheapest one they have,
but because that's the only one they had with swappable hdd, ram, battery and
even with ethernet port that I personally don't care that much about.

I much rather have slightly lower specs but when the day comes and my ram is
corrupted or i need ssd replacement I could order one online and get delivered
the next day, rather than drive 200km to drop it for repairs, wait god knows
how long and drive those damn 200km to pick it up.

Hispter glue sandwiches is not something I'm planing to buy as my next
computer, I just really hope Apple will get their sh*t together and release
another laptop for old school guys like me...

~~~
distrill
They're not going to...

~~~
mindo
I'm not religious, but I'll pray every night for a miracle. :)

------
ChicagoDave
TouchBar. Dead on arrival. This is a cute feature, but kind of embarrassing
from an innovation perspective. And given the announcement of the Surface Book
update and the new Surface Studio, Apple is inconceivably playing second
fiddle to Microsoft on the innovation front.

The leap ahead on ports is premature at best.

I'm sure Apple will hold most of their fan base, but there are going to be
quite a few defections me thinks.

~~~
drawkbox
I just don't get the appeal of having to look at your keyboard instead of the
beautiful screen.

The Microsoft approach with the dial on the screen at least is on the screen.
Why do I want to keep looking down to be sure the TouchBar has the keys I
expect?

I'll take a look at them and see, but it seems like something that will be
used very little and almost annoying.

The locked 16GB memory is a deal breaker for developers, can't even run OSX
and Bootcamp for Windows 10 on it. 8GB per VM is not enough and really we need
32GB/64GB to have 16GB/32GB each. Same with their current iMacs, next update
better have 64GB+ options or they are making themselves irrelevant to
developers and designers without having to spend $6k on an Mac Pro.

~~~
scottmf
"Why do I want to keep looking down to be sure the TouchBar has the keys I
expect?"

How far are you looking down? I have to make more of an effort to look up to
the menu bar than to look down at the function keys.

The touch bar looks great and makes a lot of sense. Far more than having to
lift your hands up to touch a screen. I'm just not a fan of the price
increases.

~~~
drawkbox
It might be cool, still have to check it. As an owner of the last lapzilla
(17" screen) I think I'd just prefer a 17" screen and more space to put
things. I feel like some of their demos are not as useful. Seems like fat
fingers will be in the way instead of precise touchpad placement, same issue
as using tablets/pads with just your finger, your finger hides precision.

\- Picking a color with your fat finger having to look over your fingers and
down to see it, why not just a color selector on the screen next to your work?
Usually droppers are used as well, messes up flow.

\- Browser tabs on the navbar, cmon, just use the tabs on the browser or
hotkeys.

\- Video editing on the navbar, not going to happen. Anything with sliders,
precision will not be fun on that. Buttons will probably be fine.

\- Placement changes, people know app dialogs/panels more than they will when
having to look down at the changing buttons. If it sits there constantly
changing while you do actions on the screen, it could be quite annoying almost
like a flashy ad on a site forcing you to look down more than you want.

Customizing your keyboard a bit and the keys available is pretty nice, and it
is probably cooler in person. But I feel like this won't be used much and will
just be an annoyance.

I could be wrong, sometimes you get an Apple feature and it just works.

~~~
scottmf
If you're questioning things that much, why have keyboard shortcuts at all?

>Anything with sliders, precision will not be fun on that.

Why wouldn't it offer precision? People do the same with trackpads right now.
And multitouch on this thing looks far more useful than with a trackpad.

>Placement changes, people know app dialogs/panels more than they will when
having to look down at the changing buttons

Why wouldn't people learn positions of buttons? Hell I can type faster on my
iPhone without looking than most people can type with a physical keyboard.

I'd have expected people here to be far more accepting of this feature. This
thing looks far more useful on a laptop than a touch screen, particularly for
people like us who make heavy use of the keyboard.

Apple doesn't tend to make gimmicky features of this level, especially not at
a $4-500 premium. It's a defining feature of the new MBP and I trust it has
had a lot of thought put into it.

There's incredible potential here, it's sad a lot of people here don't see
that.

~~~
drawkbox
It may very well be awesome, just pointing to concerns, I don't look at the
keyboard all that much.

Keyboard shortcuts are precise and are unchanging.

Trackpad is precise because your fat finger isn't covering the result, same
issue on tablets/pads if they don't offset selection from your finger, hard to
get exact placement.

The touchbar demos they conveniently remove the persons fat finger. Larger
sliders are fine like the Premiere timeline movement but trackpad and arrow
keys work for that as well quite nicely.

From a button perspective it could be nice, I like customizing my keyboard.

I just wonder about the other things, I don't see myself changing browser tabs
or sliders much on it.

I agree though that Apple doesn't usually throw in a gimmick that isn't well
thought out but on the fence until I try it.

------
vegasje
Seems like my next laptop won't be a MacBook Pro.

Can anyone recommend a good Linux laptop that will offer up to 32gb of RAM and
have decent battery life?

~~~
mtift
[http://shop.lenovo.com/us/en/laptops/thinkpad/t-series/t460](http://shop.lenovo.com/us/en/laptops/thinkpad/t-series/t460)

If you need 32GB of RAM, then the ThinkPad T460 would qualify. And Lenovo
claims it has 18 hours of battery life, which seems more than decent to me.

I switched from MacBook Pros to the ThinkPad T Series running GNU/Linux a few
years ago and I have not been disappointed. My only caveat is that I like to
run Debian stable, and that seems to work better on older ThinkPads,
especially for things like video chats. In my experience, the newer ThinkPads
work better with distros that use newer kernels (at least I _think_ that is
why), such as Ubuntu or Fedora.

I would have suggested the T460s, which is lighter, but that only goes up to
20GB of RAM.

~~~
Symmetry
I have a T460p and I'm very happy with it. I can't give you a precise battery
life but I've stopped plugging my laptop in when I'm using it outside the
house. The only problems I've had have had to do with running Linux with a
high DPI screen.

------
verandaguy
I'm surprised (and a bit disappointed) by the lack of HDMI and
DisplayPort/Thunderbolt ports.

I'm even more surprised by the lack of a physical escape key. I'm concerned
that it could break some applications (Vim, Emacs, all kinds of command-line
stuff), even if <Esc> isn't as big a deal with Apple's non-developer user
base.

... At least they kept the 3.5mm jack.

~~~
nodesocket
Map "esc" to caps lock should work.

~~~
djhworld
I have Ctrl mapped to my caps lock key :(

~~~
bobwaycott
I have both mapped to caps lock. Single press is esc. Hold with another key is
ctrl.

I do a similar thing with my shift keys. Single press of left/right shift
places the appropriate parentheses. Holding acts like shift.

~~~
sic1
Whoa, whoa... explain your magic wizard. I've had caps lock mapped to control
for years (i don't use the actual control keys for anything, don't like the
weird pinky motion), but having a quick esc like that sounds great.

~~~
bobwaycott
First, I use OS X Keyboard preferences to map caps > ctrl.

Then, I use Karabiner like so:
[https://cl.ly/3W2X1A2j3y3l](https://cl.ly/3W2X1A2j3y3l) (screenshot of my
settings).

I don't go too crazy with things. But I have the caps > ctrl+esc, shifts >
parens when pressed alone, and I have my backtick/underscore key swapped so a
single backtick press gives me an underscore, and I do shift+hyphen to get a
backtick (which I need far less frequently than I need underscores).
Sometimes, when I feel like going really crazy, I swap my numbers and symbols
so I get symbols as unshifted keypresses and numbers with shifted keypresses.
But that sometimes gets confusing to years of muscle memory.

EDIT: You can find Karabiner here:
[https://pqrs.org/osx/karabiner/](https://pqrs.org/osx/karabiner/)

EDIT2: I also have my pipe symbol & backslash swapped (mostly for Elixir,
where pipes are more common than in, say, Python). You can setup your own
private.xml with Karabiner to do that like so:
[https://gist.github.com/bobwaycott/d3a52718927519f3a11fbff8b...](https://gist.github.com/bobwaycott/d3a52718927519f3a11fbff8b849b03f)

------
felixrieseberg
I cannot understand how a company like Apple, known and proven to build
exceptional hardware, won't let me use my iPhone headset with the new MacBook.

~~~
duaneb
What is an iPhone headset? How does it differ from other headsets?

Edit: thank you. Does that mean the female lightning connector would only be
used for headphones? Yeah, talk about vendor lockin and connector deprecation.

~~~
rrdharan
No lightning jack on the laptop, is what the poster meant.

------
j79
Given the opening of the Keynote and the focus around accessibility, I'm
really curious how Touch Bar will work for non-sighted users. Will it require
running your finger over the controls while VoiceOver relays the context of
the button? Or, will the Touch Bar require "focusing" where a user swipes
through the buttons, similar to iOS?

Personally, I don't need application aware function keys (sure, emojis are
cool in messages...) and would love an option for the 15" MBP to have physical
keys, similar to the 13" option...

------
gniquil
I don't understand why there's so much backlash against the "bar". Personally
I'm actually really excited. I'm a programmer. I can imagine all sorts of
plugins and addons one can make for one's favorite editor. Imagine writing a
plugin for vim or sublime text to inc/dec font size, mapping short cut
functionalities to "named" buttons rather than F9. Don't like it contextually
changing on you? Just program it to stay static. Some here complain that
there's no escape key. But what prevents you from putting it there (better
yet, maybe we could make it twice the width so you won't accidentally hit
F1?).

In fact, extrapolating further, perhaps in 10 years, the entire keyboard (and
touchpad) will eventually become one giant touch screen, with location
specific haptic feedback. By then, the younger generation of programmers who
grew up in the age of touch screen phones and ipads will not miss the real
keyboards (like we don't miss the blackberries). And that one giant
touchscreen will be infinitely more customizable.

------
ookblah
honestly, pretty let down by the event. apple touchbar is ... i cant' even.
it's like trying to force features that were on my phone on to the laptop. and
this thing is supposed to be geared toward professionals.

1) what if i'm docked to an external monitor + keyboard? becomes completely
useless.

2) going forward and back in safari? "quick type" autosuggestions when typing?
really is that the innovation? i'm pretty sure i can type and/or correct
myself faster than it takes to look down and touch an autocorrected version of
what word i just typed. why not build that ui into you know.. the on screen
software. this is just a terrible ui decision that was brought over from a
phone... which makes 100% sense there given the small real estate.

anybody who uses pro apps already knows all the primary shortcuts or remaps
them so they are easy to access by feel. now you require me to stare at my
keyboard and manage two touch surfaces that aren't close to each other.

3) and thanks for removing my esc key and replacing it with a one that changes
context every time i switch apps (or even within an app). i'm sure that goes
well with all the developers out there.

that pretty much leaves being able to... quickly select emojis in messages and
touch id (which admittedly was very cool). seriously debating this (given the
bumped specs) or a previous gen macbook pro or new macbook. if i could move
out of apple ecosystem i'm seriously considering it this time around.

------
ilyanep
Still can't go above 16GB RAM. As someone who is frequently running a lot of
servers on my development machine (but still values portability), this is
pretty disappointing.

~~~
nodesocket
I agree, 32GB RAM should be an option.

------
matt4077
HN is full of people who touch-type F9, I know. But I'm pretty excited about
the toolbar. In anything but my primary editor, it will dramatically increase
my ability to get by keyboard-only. For 99% of people, the increased
discoverability will dramatically increase their ability to use shortcuts.

And even the other 1% don't spend all their time within a set of applications
small enough to memorize all shortcuts.

~~~
igravious
Poll: Do you touch type? (by mcobrien 1723 days ago)

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3566079](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3566079)

    
    
       ▲	The Right Way
    	318 points
    	
       ▲	Sloppily, without using home keys
    	210 points
    	
       ▲	No
    	45 points

~~~
cdubzzz
So that explains the reaction here on HN, at least. I had no idea polls are a
thing!

------
avitzurel
I can't get over the ESC key.

I need to experience it in order to make a final decision but even though it's
"there" the position looks awkward.

~~~
jasonjei
In typical Apple fashion, there's a dongle for that.

Sarcasm aside, I wonder how well this will work if you use Boot Camp. Does the
TouchBar revert to a normal function bar when OS isn't in control of it? Let's
say I don't use VMware, and I want to boot into Linux or Windows, what happens
to the TouchBar? Installing Linux or non-OS X operating system could be made
more difficult without function keys. And yes, VIM and other modal editors are
going to be less fun with the loss of tactile ESC.

I'm hoping the TouchBar will have some failsafe firmware mode that allows
normal use of Func keys when OS doesn't have control over it.

The worst possible case in my mind is buying a small, tiny external keyboard
(dongle) with just the Func keys if Boot Camp doesn't have a good solution.

~~~
pault
You can use ctrl-[ instead of esc in vim.

~~~
Matthias247
On a german keyboard layout that's somewhere between hardly typeable (requires
3 keys) on Mac and impossible on other OSes (Ctrl+AltGr == AltGr == No Ctrl)

~~~
metafunctor
From what I've understood, on a German keyboard you type Control + Ü for ESC,
instead of some three-key combo.

~~~
Matthias247
Just tested it on my Mac. It's Ctrl + Ä. So this works. However haven't tested
yet of what windows/mingw does with this.

~~~
Matthias247
If anybody is interested: In Windows it works with Ctrl + Ü.

------
ROFISH
16GB RAM max, DP1.2 (so no 5k display support), worthless Touch Bar when I use
my current MBP dual monitor with the lid closed. Pass.

Sadly I really wanted something better since I'm on an old 2012 MBP that badly
needs an upgrade but I'm not dropping $1500+ for something that doesn't
support 32GB and 5k displays.

~~~
davesque
I'm a bit confused. I thought the event showcased a setup with two 5k displays
attached to one 15" macbook pro.

~~~
drinchev
Correct, but why would you use 3 screens when you can use just 2? And anyway I
use external keyboard with numeric keys and a magic mouse instead of the
trackpad. So why should I keep my Mac open anyway?

~~~
masklinn
> Correct, but why would you use 3 screens when you can use just 2.

If you can use two 5k displays at the same time, you can probably use just
one...

------
kennell
I don't get it.

The entire presentation was absolutely cringeworthy. The touch bar is a stupid
gimmick being sold for a $300 price bump. Any serious developer, video editor
or audio engineer knows all his shortcuts already and simply does not want to
look down on his keyboard. The entire idea is flawed to begin with.

I really would not care if they put this on their toy-macs (the 12" "Macbook"
or the "Air). Go ahead. But for the love of god, just leave one machine for
people that use their Macs as a serious, professional everyday work tool

------
arihant
This does not seem like a major announcement to me. They added a bar and touch
ID. But they added force touch with taptic engine last year and it took 3
minutes to introduce.

Between this and Surface with Bash built in, it's the first time since Windows
98 that I can see myself using a Windows computer.

This machine is not pro, as in not for professionals. No self-respecting
Musician, Artist, Writer, Programmer, Photographer, Sportsman, etc. can make
their living on this. This is what you take to a coffee shop to check e-mail.
Anything else requires a dongle. It doesn't "just work" if you need to plug in
a series of cables first. That's how Windows laptops were handled. They needed
drivers for anything meaningful, this needs dongles.

I need a laptop to create. I don't need a laptop that competes with a notepad
on thickness and usefulness. It was all Steve Jobs. All of it.

When is 4mm thicker laptop less elegant than thinner laptop with 5 dongles?
Only on paper.

~~~
phil21
I agree with you here. Unfortunately I will still be buying one as I don't
believe bash on windows is there yet. However it was a painful choice and if I
hadn't dropped my old 2012 rMbP repeatedly I'd be holding out. I think in a
year or two Windows is going to look far more compelling.

So apple won me with software. For now. The hardware is a step back though
that I'm disappointed in. I'm strongly considering simply purchasing the
latest rMBP release and use it for another couple years to see if anything
meets my requirements then. That's a bad sign if you're Apple with a willing
customer wanting to give you money whose primary driver is not cost.

I'm actually all for the move to USB-C, but that was enough. A HDMI port at a
minimum is a requirement for a pro series laptop in today's business world.
It's either resign myself to carrying a dongle around, or buy the older
generation of hardware. Sounds trivial but it's the overhead of a mental tax
that simply doesn't need to be there.

I run Windows 10 at home and it's getting pretty stellar as far as UI and
features like high DPI. It sounds like they are rapidly making inroads on
battery life (if not already surpassing Apple - the reason I switched to OSX
in 2012 to begin with) on the same hardware, and as soon as they get some
competent software like a terminal emulator that doesn't suck (assuming the
linux subsystem development push continues) Apple really loses it's moat for
this market segment. As far as I can tell though in the past couple years -
they just don't care.

At this point the largest missing piece for me switching back to Windows is
lack of a stellar terminal emulator. Everything I've tried so far on the
desktop (@4k) still either annoys me for closed source reasons, or just does
not look as good as iterm2 on the retina. It's a silly thing, but something I
don't want to have to worry about. It's also an incredibly shallow moat.

~~~
arihant
I did the same thing. I have a 2015 MBP, and I plan to hold it at least till
AppleCare expires and then see how's the landscape is. Having the 2015 model,
I don't feel at all left out with this release. I think I have a better laptop
that this release. They are still selling it on their website.

But I don't think it will be a just-buy-another-mac type of purchase when I'm
out for my next machine.

------
gchokov
I for one like what I see.

I currently have 2012 rMBP and love the form factor, love the material. Why
would I want something different from what I really like already? I am sure
the display will be a lot better, but here, nobody talks about it.

I totally agree that functional keys take too much time and there are some I
never ever use. Can't wait to jump on the new MacBook. I'll be more than happy
if it lasts me nearly 5 years again.

I don't understand all the negativity recently here on HN. Do you try to look
cool guys? Go get MSFT book and leave the rest of us to use what we already
love, but better one.

------
elnygren
Why is everyone so disappointed? This is still by far the best laptop out
there - let's go through the painpoints:

\- no 32gb RAM. Name one laptop (a laptop, not a battleship) that has 32gb.
Dell and Lenovo have a couple monstrosities with trackpads from the 90s with
that amount of RAM.

\- no ESC key. C'mon, obviously the toolbar has it when running macvim or
iTerm (or some other terminal) with vim.

\- no Intel something, no Nvidia this and that. So? With regards to GPU and
CPU this is probably the best laptop in the market that is this thin and
light.

\- 10h battery life. MBP already has the biggest battery that is allowed in
airplanes. Nobody can do better with same amount of computing power.

\- USB-C. In a way this is valid, however, the world is better off with less
connectors (it's Apple, everyone's gonna follow suit). For MagSafe, look at
something like ZapTip.

To people saying they are abandoning Apple after a decade of use: why?

\- still the best keyboard and trackpad BY FAR in the market

\- still the best build quality, design and dimensions in the market

\- excellent display

\- excellent software

\- an actual laptop that you want to carry around instead of a Dell/Lenovo
plastic monster battleship

I think other people already did the comparison against Microsoft. Surface
Books are much more expensive ($/performance) with only the touch screen going
for them.

~~~
theseoafs
> Name one laptop (a laptop, not a battleship) that has 32gb. Dell and Lenovo
> have a couple monstrosities with trackpads from the 90s with that amount of
> RAM.

This seems pretty unfair. "Name a laptop with 32GB of RAM, except the ones I
don't like don't count."

> C'mon, obviously the toolbar has it when running macvim or iTerm (or some
> other terminal) with vim.

I don't see how that's a foregone conclusion. Moreover I like using the
terminal app that comes with the actual machine.

> still the best keyboard and trackpad BY FAR in the market

Trackpad maybe, but Apple's keyboards have gotten tremendously terrible.

------
bit_logic
Something I wish Apple would do:

 _Apple Executive_ : Engineering team, make the new MacBook Pro 20% lighter
and thinner!

 _Apple Engineering_ : OK!

 _(Many months later)_

 _Apple Engineering_ : We're done! We had to make massive improvements in
energy efficiency, thermal issues, etc. but we did it.

 _Apple Executive_ : Now give all that 20% weight/width back to the battery.
Pro users probably care more about battery life than weight/width at this
point which are more than good enough.

------
duaneb
They aren't buttons, it's a touch screen. Meaning: fuck blind people and touch
typists.

~~~
kgwgk
how do blind people use current macbook pro laptops? (serious question).

Edit: at least there is an option to get actual function keys in the 13" model
if they are required to use Voice Over and they cannot be reliable found on
the touch bar... and the user won't really care about the screen size (I'm
joking, I can think of many reasons why a blind person might want/need to use
the 15" model).

~~~
talmand
With the keyboard and VoiceOver.

------
csomar
Lots of negative reviews here. My first mac was a 15" rMBP-2014. I have really
fallen in love with the machine and OSX.

Here is what I think Apple got right (from a personal perspective):

1- Lighter and thiner. When I'm out, I care only about how light it is; and
how thin it is. I have a bluetooth mouse, and I don't really need an HDMI and
SD card slot.

2- I can see myself using the TouchBar for Chrome and Mail. I usually
browse/mail when I'm out.

3- The cheapest version has a good Graphic Card that supports 4 HD screens. My
current retina does support only two HD screens and I have been thinking of
building a 3or4 screen setup.

4- Larger Trackpad. I can see myself using this too.

Here is where I got disappointed:

1- Limited CPU upgrade. Would have loved if we got a real killer CPU here
(xeon mobile or something like that)

2- Possibility of a 32GB RAM Upgrade.

3- Higher resolution screen, but this is low on my list as the current one is
fairly high-res.

4- Better front-camera. 720p? Come on, it's 2017. At least a 5MP camera. It'd
not add much to the cost and make my skype calls less miserable.

5- nano-SIM Slot for 4G internet. Seriously, I tether most of the time. This
function has been in my 10" LG 6 years ago.

------
huac
I'm very sad that the MagSafe connectors will be gone. It's one of my favorite
parts of the Mac ecosystem, and a huge advantage.

~~~
lostgame
Why? Why? Why?

Are they actively trying to piss people off by removing key features?

What is the advantage of this?

~~~
bronson
Why Every New Macbook Needs A Different Goddamn Charger

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jyTA33HQZLA](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jyTA33HQZLA)

------
satysin
The touch bar could do with being a little taller. Considering there is space
above it it is a shame they couldn't make it 3-4mm bigger.

I find it amusing Apple makes such a big deal of adding a fingerprint reader
to a laptop, I have had that for about a decade on all my Windows machines.
Hardly anything special these days.

So it is thinner, yay!(?), but it was pretty damn thin anyway, would have been
nice to have a 20 hour battery (estimating on size differences if same battery
life as previous).

God I hope they improved the butterfly switches from v1. Those things were
like using a Blackberry keyboard on a laptop. Disgusting IMHO.

Does anyone know if their "wide" colour display beats the OLED in the new
Lenovo?

Edit: Also 4 USB-C, how long until they kill the Lightning port on the
iPhone/iPad do you think? Seems idiotic to have a phone and tablet with one
connector and a laptop (and desktops I assume in the future) with a totally
different port. They should have switched to USB-C on the iPhone 7 when they
killed off the 3.5mm jack IMHO.

~~~
grzm
_" I find it amusing Apple makes such a big deal of adding a fingerprint
reader to a laptop, I have had that for about a decade on all my Windows
machines."_

I think it's more than just the the fingerprint reader though, right? The
secure enclave and integration with a payment system is pretty compelling as
well, isn't it?

Granted, I'm not familiar with the fingerprint readers you've been using. Are
they integrated into the machine? Do they have the equivalent of these secure
enclave hardware?

~~~
satysin
The fingerprint _should_ be stored in the TPM. The payment features have been
possible for a long time although not built into Windows so you would have had
to use third party software to manage that. This is what Windows Hello is
supposed to unify however I cannot remember if Microsoft has actually deployed
these features yet, I know they have talked about them. The hard part is
getting everything to support a single way of managing secure payment.
Obviously with Apple Pay this gives you that single platform however I wonder
if Microsoft would fall foul of the law if they _only_ support bio-metric
payment with an MS Account?

~~~
grzm
Thanks for the details! I had forgotten about the fingerprint readers in
ThinkPads (and likely others). How common were they? I think it's pretty cool
that the fingerprint reader is being deployed in a pretty mainstream laptop.
Edit to add: Even with all of the recent legal issues surrounding fingerprints
as opposed to passwords. We can figure out what we want to secure using
TouchId, perhaps even relegating TouchId to convenience rather than
privacy/security.

Interesting point about limiting biometric payment through a particular
account. Would it make a difference that Apple Pay serves as a gateway to
existing payment services?

~~~
satysin
I think pretty much all ThinkPad models have had the option of an fpr for a
while now. Dell and HP have also had TPM-based fpr in their business machines
also.

I honestly don't know if how Apple Pay works is the same as how MS plans to do
things. They had Microsoft Wallet before but it didn't go anywhere. I expect
to see _something_ from MS over the next year or two but as they failed so
hard in mobile and clearly don't care much about trying to fix that at the
moment I am not sure how much of a priority it is to them.

------
trurl
Still no 32GB option. I guess Pros just don't need that kind of memory?

~~~
dev1n
And you know macOS is gonna suck up half of that at the very least.

~~~
taivokasper
What!? Only half? I would expect it to make better use of the free RAM and use
all of it for caching!

------
dasmoth
Does anyone else get the feeling that Apple are planning to kill desktops
entirely? I went into this kind-of interested in the touch bar but thinking
"how will they add it to external keyboards." Now, I don't think they ever
will. The "pro workstation" sequence they showed during the live event is what
they're aiming at: set your desk up so that the laptop us the keyboard and
just add monitors (and perhaps external storage).

And you know, perhaps they're right. But may take me a while to accept.

~~~
kennell
They can't kill it. Someone (we) has to continue making all those fancy,
shinny, shitty little $1.99 apps.

------
binthere
This trend of killing hardware buttons needs to stop. It's very inconvenient.
The sense of touch is important for me. It's one of the annoying things I
don't like about many Android devices and it seems that Apple is slowly
transitioning to this as well.

~~~
santaclaus
Hardware buttons have no place in a post millennial world. Kids under 12 don't
even know what physical buttons are.

~~~
rjohnk
2056 After decades of touch interfaces, Apple releases, "Button" a
revolutionary device that connects the physical world with the digital. FEEL
the movement. HEAR the keypress.

Old millenials gesture wildly and swipe back and forth on VR forums saying how
amazing it is to actually use senses of touch.

------
rl3
"6th-generation Intel processor"

So in other words it's using Skylake, not Kaby Lake (7th-generation).

No mention of display resolution either, which leads me to believe the 15"
model won't feature a 4K display. It's using an unspecified AMD Polaris GPU.

There's also a 13" MBP sans Touch Bar, featuring normal function keys.

~~~
TurboHaskal
"6th-generation Intel processor"

(Audience claps)

~~~
Jayakumark
If you notice its mostly the first 2 rows who are clapping for everything,
they are apple employees or executives

------
sccxy
Pro device with emojis.

Did you hear about emojis? I guess they mentioned it five times in the
keynote.

~~~
FireBeyond
Well, you -know- the Surface Studio doesn't have an emoji keyboard.

~~~
mastax
Well, actually:
[https://i.ytimg.com/vi/tb6fWHelumA/maxresdefault.jpg](https://i.ytimg.com/vi/tb6fWHelumA/maxresdefault.jpg)

it's probably not bad on a touchscreen.

------
jmspring
Dear Tim Cook,

As the owner of a 16gig, 13" MBP, i7 processor, MacBook Pro, explain to me why
I upgrade?

Utili-bar is stupid.

Old processor, no chance for more memory, OS going to shit by trying to be as
constrained as iOS.

Upgrade why?

------
Matachines
I was either happy/neutral about everything but the price... not sure what to
do now. I'm just too used to macOS and don't feel like making the switch to
Windows or Linux.

~~~
Lio
I'm in the same boat. For the moment I think a thunderbolt 2 eGPU on my
existing 2103 13" MacBook Pro might be enough for what I need. When it gets a
bit older, I'm not sure what I'll do.

~~~
Matachines
I think I'll bite the bullet and get the non-Touch Pro and a USB Hub.

~~~
ant6n
It's stupid to pay so much money and then be so inconvenienced.

------
sandGorgon
Four Thunderbolt 3 ports that support USB-C. Any one of the four ports can be
a charging port.

/win

Hopefully, this will disrupt the rest of the industry. The XPS 13 is a
brilliant machine (IMHO better than the Mac) but why did they not use the
USB-C for charging is beyond me.

~~~
raesene6
For me it would've been a win if they'd also included some other ports for
backwards compatibility.

Having only USB-C ports means that pretty much every user will have to have a
set of dongles for things like USB2/3, HDMI, Display port etc, which doesn't
seem like it's an ideal approach.

~~~
sandGorgon
as the iPhone 7 keynote had mentioned.. its about courage.

And in case of type-c, most new products (and charging cables) are moving
towards a single standard. Its well worth the temporary pain I'd say ;)

~~~
raesene6
it'll be years before the legacy peripherals are gone, would it have hurt
Apple too much to include a USB3?

So all the users of the product get years of inconvenience and expense for
"courage" ... that's a word you could use, probably not the one I'd go for.

------
40acres
I was very intruged by the Dell XPS 13/15, especially since they come in a
developer edition which runs Ubuntu. I've been holding off on a purchase
because I wanted to see what Apple would come up with, Dell looks pretty
strong today.

~~~
kilroy123
I bought one a few years ago. Worst laptop I've ever bought!

The keyboard was broken right out of the box. They replace it, reluctantly. I
always had problems with the touchpad after that.

The CPU fan went out after a year. Then I had lots of trouble with
replacements after that.

Ugh. Much happier with my Macbook Pro.

~~~
ianai
No hardware problems on my XPS 13. But the trackpad, however, has never worked
properly with Windows 10. They seriously dropped the ball on the trackpad. I
don't understand how that's possible on a laptop.

------
gizmo
Why would any professional want to look at their keyboard to do anything? This
is just a reinvention of the F-keys row from the 80s, but worse:

[https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/1/1b/Norton_Comman...](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/1/1b/Norton_Commander_5.51.png)

~~~
bluedino
Lenovo dropped it from the X1 already.

------
inputcoffee
Everyone seems disappointed but I think the reason is this:

There isn't that much to innovate on the laptop.

If you want real innovation, you need new form factors: voice recognition, VR,
intelligent devices and so on.

The laptop is excellent at what it does and the only thing you can really do
is make it faster and lighter.

~~~
lostgame
Everyone's disappointed because we don't _WANT_ innovation.

We _WANT_ better battery life, not a slightly thinner laptop.

We _WANT_ our USB ports and MagSafe.

We _WANT_ a touchscreen MacBook.

We _WANT_ significantly upgraded specs, and expandability.

We _WANT_ to have the same physical keyboard layout we've had forever.

We _WANT_ Apple to stop f•••ing us around by increasing the price while
actively removing features.

THIS laptop is not 'excellent at what it does' if I can't:

• use any of my existing peripherals with it without paying an exorbitant $35
PER ADAPTER to get it to do so.

• provide me with a significant performance increase to a laptop I bought 4
years ago.

• provide me with the same features the previous laptop had (built-in HDMI,
built-in SD card slot)

This is head-shakingly, miserably sad and would've been a punch in the balls
already for any serious pro user if it wasn't an additional punch in the balls
for Apple considering Microsoft showed yesterday it's actually willing to
innovate.

~~~
TheRealDunkirk
For me, "please, no," to the touchscreen. I think Apple is quite rightly
keeping the dividing line between macOS and iOS with a touch screen.

~~~
cygned
I never understand people who want to have a touch screen in such a form
factor. I mean, I would have to move my hand from my keyboard to the screen.
That sounds very inefficient to me (but I am a heavy keyboard user, though).

~~~
yoodenvranx
A friend of mine has a yoga 900 and for some stuff a touchscreen is quite
cool, especially if you are lazily on the couch and you do Youtube or movie
watching or you listen to spotify. For such stuff it's really nice to just
press on the play or next button on the screen.

It's nothing you _have_ to have, but for lazy computer usage it's a nice
feature.

------
stemuk
How come all that complaining and rambling about the missing upgrades for the
iMac or Mac mini? I really think that Apple did a great job at evolutionally
improving the MacBook Pro under the hood, and the TouchBar seems to be a
really usefull addition for creative professionals.

Quite a fraction of the HN community really seems to enjoy complaining about
what possibly could have been, rather than just beeing happy about the stuff
Apple delivered today. And if you just can't stand the new MacBooks? Who
cares! There are tons of other manufacturers to choose from and a different
machine may just fit your taste perfectly.

~~~
cooper12
HN just loves to be anti-Apple so they can say they aren't sheeple. Every
keynote thread here has had comments about how Apple stopped innovating after
Steve Jobs. And yet every year they still somehow innovate. Comments like that
show how deep HN has fallen into the cult of personality, that they actually
believed it was Steve who was coming up with all of these ideas. So much for
not being sheeple ;).

~~~
ajeet_dhaliwal
I don't think this is fair. There are features many devs care about that going
away. Everything soldered to the board meaning nothing can be upgraded, no
increases in ram (which is fixed and makes this even worse), getting rid of
ports that people use, now a touch bar that does not appeal to touch typists,
and then to top it off a huge jacking up of prices .

~~~
cooper12
The soldered-in stuff is not new to this model and is unlikely to be reversed.
Your average user does not need more than 16GB of ram, and as said before, is
not a new thing with Macbooks. (it's like expecting smartphone makers to
suddenly include SD cards, sorry but the ship has long sailed) As for ports,
they have USB C which can do everything the old ports did; that's where the
industry is headed anyway, Apple is only jumpstarting it. Lastly, yeah the
Touch Bar is not for touch typists, so what? No one is going to force you to
use it. Price is price, that's just the Apple Premium (TM).

It's naive of the commenters to think that Apple is suddenly going to appeal
to them, sorry, but you're not the target demographic. Go buy some decades-old
Thinkpads and install Linux on them since that's what you were going to do
anyway.

~~~
ajeet_dhaliwal
They appealed to us before, that's the point. Things have changed over the
last 5-6 years.

------
agentgt
"We took that track pad that your palms occasional rub against and
accidentally move your cursor.... yeah we took that and made it extra big so
your wrists will now participate in cursor screw ups"... think different.

~~~
bluthru
Obviously software ignores those touches.

~~~
ncallaway
Sometimes! My current MBP misclicks occasionally when I'm typing. Even though
the software is probably quite good and preventing 99% of the misclicks, the
1% of the time it occurs still ends up being a couple of times per session.
It's frustrating and annoying.

Unless they have significantly improved their software, this is a net-negative
change for me.

------
Sgt_Apone
4 USB-C ports. Kind of a bummer that I have to get a dongle to charge my
iPhone SE with this thing.

~~~
akramhussein
They really screwed over iOS devs here. I have multiple cables as backups and
in different bags etc - all need replacing now...except that I can't use the
USB-C variant in the power brick :( I also do Android dev...need to get a
USB-C to Micro-USB too just for that! Just one big mess.

~~~
nicky0
Can you expand on what you mean about not being able to use the power brick?

~~~
akramhussein
My iPhone power brick for charging. Has USB-A input.

[http://www.apple.com/uk/shop/product/MGRL2B/A/apple-5w-usb-p...](http://www.apple.com/uk/shop/product/MGRL2B/A/apple-5w-usb-
power-adapter-folding-pins?fnode=97)

Sorry figure adapter is more accurate word not brick.

------
tedmiston
There's a lot of dislike for the new machines in this thread. It's a good time
to remember that previous gen machines are often found in the Refurbished [1]
and Clearance [2] sections of the Apple site in the months following a launch.
Clearance is empty right now, but there are plenty of rMBP in refurbished.

[1]:
[http://www.apple.com/shop/browse/home/specialdeals/mac](http://www.apple.com/shop/browse/home/specialdeals/mac)

[2]:
[http://www.apple.com/shop/browse/home/specialdeals/clearance...](http://www.apple.com/shop/browse/home/specialdeals/clearance/mac)

------
pbhowmic
My single biggest fear was that they would end the MagSafe and that has come
to pass. 3 kids, 3 cats, 2 dogs, the MagSafe has saved my existing MacBook Pro
so many times.

~~~
walterbell
Could someone make a MagSafe-to-USB-C adapter?

~~~
yaegers
Someone already does. ZapTip etc. But how often have we heard about issues?
Short Circuits and even fires and it ended up being a non Apple Third Party
acessory that was faulty and caused the issues?

Is it really that much to ask if one wants to use only official apple tech?
One dedicated magsafe and this would have been a non issue. It can't have made
the macbook thicker seeing as how small the magsafe is. They could have even
mentioned in the keynote "and if you don't want to use the magsafe, charge
your macbook from any of the usb-c devices" And simply put both charging
options in the store so people could get a non magsafe usb-c is they wanted.

------
ucha
Interesting fact: the 13" macbook without the touch bar has a 10% larger
battery; however they don't describe it as having a 10% better battery life:
they're both rated at 10 hours.

~~~
wmeddie
More capacity and with one less display to drive. It should definitely last
significantly longer.

------
alva
$1200 upgrade cost for 2TB option. 16GB RAM maximum.

edit: Jeez. For 15" with 1TB UK buyers will be paying £3,059.00

~~~
codemac
This + 6th gen Intel is disappointing.

I used to buy macbooks to put linux on them. I'm happy with my switch to
Lenovo (20g ram, 6th gen Intel, 512g nvme). Oh, and ports.

------
dtnewman
The loss of the escape key is something I find annoying, even if it can be
remapped[1] to caps lock (which i never use).

[1] [https://9to5mac.com/2016/10/25/remap-escape-key-action-
macbo...](https://9to5mac.com/2016/10/25/remap-escape-key-action-macbook-pro-
macos-sierra-10-12-1-modifier-keys/)

------
te_platt
I've been looking forward to this for while now but my first reaction is that
I don't think I need a new laptop. And I really wanted a new laptop.

It looks nice, the last model looks nice too. The touch bar looks like it
could be nice, 95% of my time I use an external keyboard. The new display
looks really nice, 95% of my time I use two large external monitors. The USB-C
ports will in the long run be more convenient, right now I'm looking at > $100
in adapters.

I'll check them out at the store but I may just look for a good price on the
last model.

~~~
ben174
It'll be interesting to see if Apple releases a new external USB-C keyboard
with touch bar. I'd expect it to be priced around $150.

------
Osmium
Would be curious to know if they tested the Touch Bar below the keyboard
instead of above it.

I wonder if, as the concept further evolves, the bar might become larger or
migrate locations. The comparisons they made to the original PowerBook were
interesting, in that it really showed how constant incremental changes really
add up in the long term.

Edit: Another possibility is to integrate an OLED display into the trackpad
too, so then you have haptics as well, and could interact with both mouse and
touch bar with one hand.

[Reposted my comment from the other thread.]

~~~
slantyyz
>> The comparisons they made to the original PowerBook were interesting, in
that it really showed how constant incremental changes really add up in the
long term.

I spent a huge chunk of my savings to get a Powerbook 170 in the early 90s to
get the active matrix grayscale screen. I still miss that trackball. It was
--awesome--.

------
rl3
There's a 13" MBP model that lacks Touch Bar, featuring normal function keys.

Apple is using last year's Skylake processors (6th-generation), not Kaby Lake
(7th-generation), even though some OEMs are starting to ship hardware with
Kaby Lake right now.

> _Retina display

>15.4-inch (diagonal) LED-backlit display with IPS technology; 2880-by-1800
native resolution at 220 pixels per inch with support for millions of colors_

No 4K display on the 15" models.

The GPU configurations are as follows based on the order page:

 _Intel Iris Graphics 540 (13 " sans Touch Bar)

Intel Iris Graphics 550 (13" with Touch Bar)

Radeon Pro 450 with 2GB memory (15")

Radeon Pro 455 with 2GB memory (15" top-end)

Radeon Pro 460 with 4GB memory (both 15" models, optional)_

As a WebGL developer, I'm really happy to see the Intel HD Graphics 4600
chipset die. It's basically been _the_ performance target for consumer-
oriented web applications for years now. Unfortunately, that target will still
linger until older models finally reach obsolescence.

~~~
Matachines
The only problem with the non-Touch Pro is the lack of ports :/ Otherwise I'd
get one right now.

------
transfire
More like "MacBook Blow".

I mean really. They are trying to innovate but this thing still has a giant
Caps Lock key, yet no Esc key? And who wants to use those tiny up and down
arrows? I think the touch bar is a fine idea, it is actually way over due, but
why make is so thin? And honestly I hate touch pads, force or no force. How
about Leap Motion instead -- that would be innovative.

And then there's the price. I guess people in San Fran can afford it. But it's
certainly not a computer for the rest of us.

------
optionalparens
Looking at the various missing keys and the touch strip, I couldn't help but
laugh and cry. Less is more, right? I think we all know this is aimed at
casual users, but it's still fun to poke at it.

The first thing that came to mind is any time now that I walk into a coffee
shop, if I see someone passing themselves off as a programmer on a new
Macbook, I'll know they are just screwing around or otherwise extremely angry
(and should not approach). I guess carrying around your own keyboard is going
to be more of a thing for people who like to work outside the home/office. As
an Emacs user and someone who spent at least some time in Vim and Vi over the
years, wow, I can't imagine the inner rage of some people I know if they tried
to use this.

The other thing I thought of is hasn't this quite often been a problem for
other people who tried similar approaches? For example, we tried the UI with
not looking at the main screen with things like the WiiU, did we not?
Obviously gaming is different than productivity, but still, the screen is the
primary focus. Could we also not just throw dynamic UI like this on in other
ways?

A few I've seen/heard of or could be a future tech:

* Remapping an icon or otherwise minimal custom glyphs/text per key.

* Remote style. Ex: Second display like they had with Vista or other things, but via iPhone or other devices - put it next to you, in front, whatever, boom - extra contextual touch screen. Apple even does this for many apps like Logic Pro X.

* Perfecting tactile response better and using a full dynamic keyboard like on some laptops out there right now (but with more mechanical response). Obviously easier said than done.

The problem with all this is I wonder who is looking down so much or wanting
to look down. If you have time to look down, is it really such a problem then
to use the OS UI to get the same thing done?

Probably the only time most people I know that can actually type decently tend
to look down at a keyboard is to orient themselves again in some way. I know
sometimes when I switch languages/locales on my machine to type in some other
languages, it takes me a second depending on the language. But this tech
doesn't help at all with that except giving me a button to flip, that is
already a keyboard chord anyway.

~~~
sundvor
I'm fully with you. Programmers _NEED_ physical function keys, and at the very
least the escape key. Anything that requires you to look down is just a joke.

Lenovo quickly learned their lesson with their (imho, as a touch typer,
brilliant) X1 Carbon, when they went fancy with the function row in Gen2.
Suffice to say, the near perfect keyboard layout of Gen1 was back in Gen3.

------
hartator
I think it's also interesting to note that for the first time Apple is lagging
behind in term of CPU generation when introducing redesigned MacBooks.

The new MacBook Pro are said to be using 6th generation of Intel CPU (Skylake)
when you have already on the market the 7th generation on Intel CPU (Kaby
Lake). You are even competitive laptops using them already:
[http://www.gsmarena.com/new_dell_xps_13_laptop_comes_in_rose...](http://www.gsmarena.com/new_dell_xps_13_laptop_comes_in_rose_gold_finish_launching_next_month-
blog-20520.php)

As a web developer, I think something like this laptop with Windows 10 is
becoming more and more interesting. With Ubuntu native integration in Windows,
you can even run the Ubuntu versions of the full stack including Node.js,
Mongodb and Rails. 100% matching your deployment environment.

~~~
zeusly
as I understand it, the MBP line uses the 45W CPUs and I think they aren't out
yet

~~~
mamon
So what? Apple could do the same thing Dell did: release 13 inch version with
Kaby Lake today, and postpone 15 inch till December. I personally can't wait
until xps 15 with 7th gen Intel and NVidia Pascal debiuts

------
benologist
TBH the touch bar seems like a half-arsed response to everyone else getting
touch screens. Swiping photos, swiping timelines ... would be more natural on
your actual screen, and almost as natural just using the trackpad or mouse.

~~~
cpr
Except that you can reach these "keys" with your hands staying on the
keyboard. No "gorilla arm" problem.

------
brandon272
The most exciting and practical product of the announcement was squeezed in at
the end, the oddly named MacBook Pro replacement for the Macbook Air. And when
I say exciting I am speaking relatively.

There was no mention of battery life, which is hugely important to me as a
notebook user and which I guess I will have to find out from the Apple website
once it refreshes.

I just found the whole thing to be kind of weird and underwhelming. Maybe the
TouchBar is mind blowing in person. We'll see.

~~~
cstross
Battery life was mentioned: "up to 10 hours" (all machines).

~~~
silverwind
The non-touchbar version will probably last longer because in addition to
having one less draining device, its battery apparently also has around 10%
more watt-hours.

------
EdSharkey
Apple removed a physical Esc key - clearly a productivity superstar, but they
DIDN'T remove that IBM-wannabe boat anchor Fn key?! The touch bar is all
dynamic and touch-screeny, why the heck would you even need a PHYSICAL Fn
key?? Just make Ctrl nice and fat like it used to be and dump Fn!

I'd have less of a problem with Fn if Apple put it to the right of Ctrl like
Dell does/did. But noooooo, they had to copy those usability whizkids at IBM.

------
valine
Being able to charge from any of the four ports is legitimately cool. I also
will be happy not buying an $80 power brick every time my cable frays. The
touch bar will provide some significant user experience and workflow
improvements. Overall I'd say it's a solid upgrade.

~~~
Lio
If you don't mind me asking, how do you think you'll make use of power to the
4 sockets?

Is it just for the convenience of swapping sides or is there another use case
I'm missing?

~~~
valine
I was just thinking about the continence of swapping sides. Unless it's
possible to charge from all four ports at once. 4x charging would be cool ;).

------
Luftschiff
Can anyone here give me Buying Advice?

Mine just died and I was really looking forward to this event because I have
wanted to switch to Mac for a while now (I really don't like the "new" Windows
interface and I've only had trouble with my previous Windows Laptops) but I
don't see a reason to pay what would amount to about 2 months pay for one of
the just announced MBp.

I want to be able to do all kinds of hardware intensive things (photo and
video editing, data science/statistics, maybe software development) because I
don't know what exactly I will need my laptop for yet and want it to last for
at least 4-5 years. I'd also love my machine to be designed with some care, I
just can't stand the look of the Thinkpad series.

Any ideas?

~~~
bo1024
How about a Macbook Pro model from earlier this year or last year? They're
great machines.

~~~
Luftschiff
I was considering that option. How much RAM do you think I'd need? My work
machine is an old thinkpad with 12GB but it does slow down/freeze fairly
frequently (this might be a because of other reasons though) so I am thinking
that 8GB would never be enough. Is macOS less or more resource intensive?

~~~
bo1024
Good point - I don't really know, depends on your needs I guess. I don't do
very much memory-intensive stuff so 8GB has been fine for me.

~~~
Luftschiff
What kind of tasks do you usually do? My old Laptop was already 6 years old
when it died so I have no point of reference haha.

~~~
bo1024
Usually a light virtual machine and a bunch of browser tabs. Watching videos.
Some coding.

------
bnchrch
I think there's one fact that a lot of people overlooked here.

The new touchbar is optional.

The new MBP comes in two models and one still has your typical function row. I
do agree that the announcement was disappointing, leaving me questioning if
I'd get a new macbook anytime soon. I would have liked some more ram but its
not work flow changing for those of us who are already accustomed to mac
laptops.

~~~
shorodei
You also don't get TB3 without the touchbar.

~~~
fakename
you get 2x tb3 ports on the model without a touchbar. (
[http://www.apple.com/macbook-pro/specs/](http://www.apple.com/macbook-
pro/specs/) )

------
jmspring
Apple has failed at cloud. They have fired their car group. Software-wise,
they want MacOS to be as restrictive (I mean featureful) as iOS. Underwhelming
hardware updates -- I work for Microsoft and was waiting on upgrading to a new
MBP...

I'm an apple household...

Apple 2016 is Nokia 2007.

No innovation, no inspiration.

A strong rival could bury them -- though it will take $$. I'm not seeing how
Apple buys them self out of this hole.

------
Wonnk13
I'm no longer the target audience of Apple. I still own an iPhone, but their
notebook line doesn't appeal to me at all. I'm still using my aluminum macbook
from '08 and my next one will probably be a chromebook running Fedora.

~~~
ajeet_dhaliwal
Lots of 2008 Unibody Macbook owners coming out today. My sentiments exactly.

------
heyiamlukas
Macbook Pro.

The Pro stands for Emoji.

~~~
alva
The Pro now stands for Prolapse

------
slg
I find the back to back introduction of the Surface Dial and the Touch Bar to
be interesting. These two input devices are going to rely on developer
commitments for any real level of success, but why should developers spend
time on them when they will only be available on a relatively small percentage
of devices? If these were web browsers we would all be complaining about
standards, but there seems to be little blow back because they are OS level
devices. Meanwhile this would seem to be a big headache for developers of
cross platform software.

~~~
ohstopitu
my bets are, major devs (corps like Adobe) are going to integrate with the
surface dial, a few more devs are going to integrate with the touchbar (and
that will probably increase over time) but in my opinion, both are going to be
relatively niche devices for the next few years (one more so, than the other)

------
nodesocket
The base model of the 13" with touch bar price increases from the current
$1399 to $1799. That certainly surprised me and is substantial.

Also, why would anybody buy an air now? It is worse in every possible
category.

~~~
munchor
I think the reason you'd buy an Air is for the regular good old keyboard
(without Touch ID) for those of us that want a real Escape key.

~~~
rpeden
Well the low end model of the new MBP has the F keys instead of a touch bar.
But it is still $200 more than the previous base MBP.

------
mcintyre1994
UK prices are absolutely batshit crazy, I know, Brexit, but oh my God. Middle
range MBP 13" has gone from £1100ish to £1749. Bottom priced one used to have
128gb SSD and now has 256GB, but they've crippled it by only giving it 2 TB3
ports where the others have 4.. and it's still £1449.

------
bpesquet
Do you remember the last time you weren't totally or at least partially
disappointed at the end of an Apple event?

Me neither.

Maybe we expect too much. Maybe Apple has consistently failed to deliver for a
long, long time.

------
dvcrn
This event confused me. I had a bunch of emotions from happiness to utter
confusion.

I love gimmicks and thought the TouchBar was cool. Then I thought about it how
I would usually use it, and the answer was "close to never because I
touchtype". Then I realized that the ESC key that I use for so many things
blindly is now more awkward to reach. Then I realized that the TouchBar
doesn't have haptic feedback which makes precision work more difficult. Then I
realized the coming version might actually have haptic feedback and force
touch.

Then I realized that the MBP is still limited to 16GB RAM max. If I buy this
machine I want to use it for 6 years to come. 6 years with 16GB RAM doesn't
seem realistic.

I am not a negative person and absolutely love my Mac. I love the apps that I
own and I can't wait to get my hands on the new Final Cut Pro. But I don't
know if I want to buy another Mac. Remember when everyone told you the 15"
MacBook is effectively a desktop replacement? That's what I want. A desktop
replacement for work that I can also put in my pocket and carry somewhere
else.

I absolutely don't mind buying 2 Macs. One portable one (12") and one
semi/non-portable one for the heavy lifting. But right now that doesn't seem
to be the option.

For example: The new FCPX is amazing! But it requires a lot of specs to deal
with the ever increasing resolution. It's highly possible that phones can soon
record 6k footage in <6 years that need to get edited somewhere.

------
hydandata
Funny, the original PowerBook they showed had a mechanical keyboard and a
trackball, things that are much more compelling, and definitely more useful to
me personally. You know, as a professional programmer I sort of take pride
that I am immune to all this "innovation" crap. It is surprisingly easy to do
as well. Erik Naggum sums it up pretty well [0]:

"... they don't make poles long enough for me want to touch Microsoft
products, and I don't want any mass-marketed game-playing device or Windows
appliance _near_ my desk or on my network. this is my _workbench_, dammit,
it's not a pretty box to impress people with graphics and sounds. when I work
at this system up to 12 hours a day, I'm profoundly uninterested in what user
interface a novice user would prefer. ..."

You can just plug in Apple here instead of Microsoft and the truth still
reigns. Now obviously Apple is not targeting professional developers with
their products, no matter how much you try to pretend that they do, just stop,
stop accepting inferior tools for doing stuff that puts food on your table, no
other field is as bad at it as ours.

[0]
[http://www.xach.com/naggum/articles/3065048088243385@naggum....](http://www.xach.com/naggum/articles/3065048088243385@naggum.no.html)

------
Randgalt
I was totally prepared to buy one of these new MBPs and now I likely won't.
Spec wise these are not much better than last year's model. Frankly I don't
care too much about the ribbon-bar thing. What I really needed, as a
developer, was 32GB. Damn.

------
asimpletune
It's plain to see from reading the comments on here that Apple's graded on a
curve, and they've gotten so good at what they do now that people are
completely out of touch with reality. Bearing that in mind I think Touch Bar
is amazing. Laptops still occupy a very important computing space - having a
dedicated physical keyboard -, but this also makes it really hard to make them
better. Which is why I was all the more impressed to see how how delicately it
augments that laptop-experience I mentioned in such a subtle and nuanced way,
yet decidedly introducing a new, patient dimension of interactivity. No, this
isn't splashy or in your face "innovation", that would be too easy, but for
those of us who have the imagination and can reserve judgement for a moment,
this is going to dramatically improve the computing experience. And it's not
about this being a "pro" product, hopefully Touch Bar will make it to their
whole lineup down the road, it's about them being focused and disciplined in
introducing something that people will actually find long term value in.

------
Rezo
I hope the Touch ID reader w/ secure enclave can be used with 3rd party apps
like LastPass. Could be more convenient than a Yubikey (that you now cannot
connect without an adapter!).

My biggest worry is the new regular MacBook-style keyboard (which is complete
rubbish), even if they claim it's improved. That's definitely something you'll
want to try in person if you have a current MacBook Pro, at these prices.

------
pwenzel
My technology prediction for 2017: Adblock for Touch Bar.

~~~
walterbell
Best comment of this 1000+ comment thread!

------
pier25
\- 6th gen processors

\- gimmigck touch bar

\- no USB-A ports

\- no SD card reader

\- no magsafe

\- super expensive for what you get

~~~
binarycrusader
I wonder what all the people complaining yesterday about Microsoft not using a
7th gen Intel processor instead of a 6th gen are going to say now...

Ultimately, neither one of these product launches could line up their supply
chain with Intel's newest processors and nVidia's newest mobile chips. They
just weren't ready yet.

------
ChuckMcM
Interesting, I really like the touch bar (see my comments about wanting to
create something similar, if somewhat larger, in other responses) but the
overall product leaves me flat. I get thinness in general but when is it thin
enough? I certainly felt "if they just made it thinner" wasn't really
something that would inspire me to upgrade. Now a cellular modem built in?
Maybe. Doubling the battery life? Sure that would be pretty awesome. A clever
way to turn it into much expanded "desktop" kind of experience? Sure that
would have some interest (Macbooks have sucked at "docking" for a long time).

I think it looks great, and the design touches are top notch, but it doesn't
seem to be an improved _product_ than what it is replacing. I miss Steve Jobs
keen insights into the way I used things or imagined I might use them. I
always felt he was speaking to the issue of "what every you are trying to do,
using this tool will make it easier/faster/more intuitive Etc." what I got
from this Macbook event was "look how beautiful it is."

------
toor2
This is just another run of the mill update to me. I'm a developer and sys
admin in research computing and to me, everything they removed I never used
anyways. F-keys? Practically never use them, I much prefer keyboard shortcuts
that allow me to stay closer to home row. Lack of ports? I never use them on
my MacBook anyways so I don't really care Lack of power? All my heavy
computing is done on remote compute clusters

Not to say that my needs are homogenous or anything. I guess my point is, from
my perspective, this update isn't some catistrophic failure on apple's part,
and it actually fits my needs as a professional quite well. That being said, I
will definitely not buy the new MBP. My late 2011 MBP still runs flawlessly
and does everything I need on the go. All I'd really want out of a new laptop
is for it to be as small and light as possible. For me, the point of a laptop
is to be _portable_ , not some do-it-all machine that can hold all of
Wikipedia in RAM at once

------
ftrflyr
Is Apple completely out of touch with reality? The Mac Book Pro starts with
256GB? Same processor as my current 13in MBP? Disappointed.

~~~
lukeholder
It's not the same processor at all though?

~~~
ftrflyr
I stand corrected on the processor bit - I overlooked the "Dual." I still
stand by what I said about storage.

~~~
lukeholder
It's not the dual or quad, it's the whole CPU architecture upgraded, they are
now using intel skylake CPUs.

------
overgard
So as a programmer, this stupid touch bar thing is a huge downgrade. I use the
function keys all the time in my development tools. Now I'm supposed to use
some stupid tiny touchscreen with no tactile feedback? And I have to look down
at it every time I want to tap something?

This thing solves approximately zero problems I had, but creates a bunch more.

------
plusepsilon
I feel like a touch screen on the trackpad would've made more sense. Since
it's so large there's room to be creative with on-screen shortcuts, dragging
sliders, choosing an emoji :), etc. You can still keep all the keyboard
shortcuts you need and not need to look at 3 things at once (screen,
keyboard/trackpad, touch bar).

------
everly
Less than two weeks ago I bought a 13-inch retina MBP with a 3.1GHZ i7 and
16GB RAM for $1,799 [0].

I was expecting that the update would make me wish I'd have waited but nope.
Would buy the same one I currently have again, if given the option.

[0] [http://i.imgur.com/IT5LWJy.png](http://i.imgur.com/IT5LWJy.png)

~~~
mixmastamyk
> There's a 13" MBP model that lacks Touch Bar, featuring normal function
> keys.

The upgraded internals and lightness would be welcome.

~~~
everly
The internals aren't really upgraded though since I got the 3.1ghz i7 and 16gb
memory. I've never once thought it to be heavy. And even if I agreed with
those two points, it wouldn't be worth the loss of the ports.

------
maxxxxx
I switched from Windows to Mac two years ago and I am really happy with my MBP
13". But this new announcement is pretty underwhelming. 16GB max RAM, more
expensive, no touch screen, nothing new and interesting, but a need for even
more adapter cables. But it's really thin!

I am not sure what I'll do when my current Macbook breaks down.

------
codeinstyle
Am I the only one disappointed by the butterfly keyboards on the new Macbook
Pros?

I've been a Mac user for roughly about ten years now, but I think it's time to
switch back to Windows.

~~~
icedchai
IMO, Mac laptop keyboards have been going down hill since they switched to the
chicklet style. I much preferred the pre-2008 MacBook Pros with "regular"
keyboards.

------
shogun21
Apple is fully supporting USB-C on their MacBook line. I don't know why they
didn't just go all the way with unifying that across the iPhone 7.

------
orkaa
My friend found a receipt for the macbook air he ordered in 2012.

[https://twitter.com/OrkAA/status/791772715564826624](https://twitter.com/OrkAA/status/791772715564826624)

Isn't this just a tad sad? :)

------
godmodus
so it's more a toy than a work computer. They boosted the "entertainment"
factor - nothing else really.

Lenovo ruinning the thinkpad, Apple turning pros into toys. it's been a harsh
few years. - i think there's slowly a good hole to fill in terms of proper
workstation laptops that are modular and robust.

are people still hanging on to their 2012 pros? last i checked they still are.

~~~
mickronome
Yeah, one of those and one a bit newer. Have been waiting for one with 32G RAM
since forever, but feared they would have time to bodge the entire line before
getting around to it. Sometimes I hate being even _partially_ right.

From expensive tool to expensive toy.

~~~
godmodus
Ever took a look at the HP Z Book?

I might grab one if apple doesn't bring something out next year that has
proper builtin hardware. A Z book can take 64Gb Ecc ram and has a xeon inside
I think and it's very modular. Sadly not very compact tho.

------
xxxmaster
I am not sure if I have to pay so much extra money for fancy bels and whistles
that do not help me as a programmer. I was really hoping for performance boost
rather than fancy touch screen that makes me watch the keyboard instead of
touch typing.

What I saw from the presentation made my actually go back home and check what
Windows announced yesterday, since I was quite disappointed (I actually found
the presentation of the surface book more close to what I was hoping the next
macbook pro should be).

I believe the only thing that continues to save Apple for consumers like most
of the ppl around here is that it is Unix based.

~~~
rootbear
I have a long history with Unix (6th Edition on a PDP-11) and it was OS X that
brought me to the Mac. I would hate to go back to Windows for commercial apps,
except now there is the Linux subsystem in Windows 10. I was not impressed
with today's Apple announcements and I thought the Surface Studio announced
yesterday was pretty amazing. And expensive. My 2014 Macbook Pro may be my
last Mac laptop. We'll see. I look forward to seeing what the next iMacs are
like. I doubt at this point there will ever be a next Mac Pro.

------
6stringmerc
So, Apple didn't stick with their, ahem, "courage" and eliminate the headphone
jack from the MBP? How curious.

~~~
KingMob
Possibly because professionals with actual pro headphones won't stand for it?
I'm seriously contemplating switching, but if they'd tried to make me buy a
dongle for my $300 headphones, there'd be no question I'd buy a Win/Linux box.

------
Philipp__
Oh God, I miss Steve so much. I remember the time when Apple conference was a
real event, everybody would watch, and second it was done we would call and
talk for hours about it. Now after 10+ years at Apple camp, I am afraid that
this machine I bought 9 months ago might be my last if something doesn't
change in next few years. And I fear nothing will change, because Cook is
leading this company by profit and numbers, and he is doing great! But that is
what killed Apple many, many years ago. And worst of all, I do not see anyone
who can fill the shoes Apple had 5-10 years ago.

------
Roritharr
Can anyone just point me to a 32gb ram 13" machine with TB3 Ports?

I would pay handsomely. If Microsoft had included a single Type-C port in the
surface book, I would be at least in office bliss.

We could all have just bought Type-C dock monitors and had instant flexdesks
with one cablee... But no... I have to wait at least half a year more for that
to happen :(

If MS would just sell me a Surface Studio Display that works as a TB3 Dock for
both Mac & Win Devices, offering Surface Pen & Dial support Windows only, or
heck even Surface only, we would buy so many of them MS would have to become
actually good at supply chains...

------
JoClimb1ng
Next level:
[https://twitter.com/neuemodern/status/791231970588106752](https://twitter.com/neuemodern/status/791231970588106752)

------
guessmyname
Is the Touch ID sensor the new power button?

When I buy it, how am I supposed to power it up?

I feel stupid and old just for asking this question :-(

~~~
josho
Didn't notice, but I like your hypothesis as it makes for a smart design. That
you can't even power on the hardware unless your fingerprint matches--saves me
from setting a firmware password that I may forget since I never go into the
firmware.

Ironically this is the only thing that impressed me from the announcement, yet
it wasn't discussed.

------
Tistel
I will bet $1.43 that Apple's next version of the iMAC will have a tilt bevel
like the Cintiq art monitor and the new MS Studio computer. I think Wacom
still claims to have better pressure resolution that the MS touch (no sure if
true). I have a small cintiq that I enjoy. I feel a bit bad for Wacom, they
seem to have attracted some mighty competitors. Maybe Cintiq/Wacom could try
to partner with Apple. Have some sort of Wacom/iMac thing. Microsoft seems to
have gotten some good leadership.

------
bdcravens
I'm sure it's a great machine, but disappointed that it's still capped at 16GB
(since there have been lightweight machines like the XPS15 that support 32 for
a bit)

------
wkoszek
Makes me wonder how people here feel about the USB-C and basically all gadgets
requiring adapters. I like Apple and Mac, but this piece.. Isn't it ugly at
the end, that if you want to use an SD card from your camera you must get an
adapter, adapter for your iPhone 7 lighting headphones and adapter for your
$1k 27" Retina display which isn't 5k, but still pretty freaking good. That's
3 ports, and 1 USB-C port left you'll use for charging.

~~~
grzm
_" how people here feel about the USB-C"_

The idea of only needing one type of port is very appealing. No longer need to
worry about ThunderBolt, DisplayPort, Mini DisplayPort, VGA, HDMI, USB,
Firewire 400, Firewire 800, Ethernet. ("What? We don't have all of those any
more!" I hear you say. Yup! Isn't it grand?)

I'm ambivalent about losing MagSafe, but that's it.

 _" if you want to use an SD card from your camera you must get an adapter"_

I can see how the SD card port is useful. That said, I remember the days when
I had a camera with CompactFlash. Never had a computer than had a built in
reader for that, and it wasn't that bad.

As for adapters for other accessories, now all of the adapters will be X to
USB2/TB3. The piles of adapters from this to that that I've collected over the
years amazes me, in particular for displays and old FW drives. I'll be able to
get rid of a lot of old adapters going forward.

A tweet I saw today made me smile:

"If someone isn’t raging about a hardware port, it’s not really a successful
Apple event."

[https://twitter.com/rands/status/791733073972908032](https://twitter.com/rands/status/791733073972908032)

Edit to add: Yup. Gonna be buying adapters. Won't be the first time, but going
forward it's looking like that's going to be much more sane going forward.

~~~
wkoszek
Hm. Didn't get that. It's not that you've had USB->VGA or Thunderbolt->VGA etc
adapters and you were confused which to buy. There was always 1 VGA adapter
for projectors, 1 HDMI adapter for TV etc. (exception confirms the rule:
there's combo Thunderbolt->VGA/USB-C/Lightning port) This won't change. It's
basically the same now: you need all those adapters. So I'm going to throw
away >= $100 of adapters to buy new >= $100 of adapters or more.

I feel like I'd dislike Apple less if there was cable and adapter buyback
program.

~~~
grzm
I can see what you're saying. To paraphrase, I have this type of peripheral, I
need to connect from that to that type of I/O port on my laptop. Over the
years, I've seen a lot of different types of I/O. It might sound silly, and
perhaps you'll fault me, but it's sometimes been the case that I don't
remember what kind of port my current laptop uses for a particular interface
type. (And is it my work machine or my personal one?)

For example:

Data: a couple different types of SCSI, FW400, FW800, USB, serial

Network: coaxial, RJ-45, RJ-11

Display: VGA, a couple types of DVI, HDMI.

Audio: 3.5mm out, mic in

This article from the Verge

And I know it's not including some of the variants of these.

[http://www.theverge.com/2016/6/29/12054410/apple-tech-
death-...](http://www.theverge.com/2016/6/29/12054410/apple-tech-death-chart-
headphone-jack-ports-usb-c)

Now having a common input to the laptop simplifies this a lot. Yeah, if the
type of input changes again and we want to continue to use existing
peripherals, we'll have to get new adapters. And I fully expect to. Until we
no longer need to physically connect devices together, ports are going to
change. I do think it's going to be easier to keep track of going forward.

I agree it looks like Apple has more port turnover than other manufacturers,
and I wouldn't be surprised if that's actually the case. I don't expect
everyone to agree with me when I say it's not a deal killer for me.

------
mo1ok
Dual core i5? What year is it, 2004?

~~~
subie
I'm still using a 2008 Macbook for most of my development. You'd be surprised
how much OSX can do with little resources.

That being said I wouldn't buy a new laptop without a quad core.

------
pc2g4d
I really dig how laptop input devices are in flux right now. There's this
trackbar thing, and then there are RGB keyboards like on the Razer Blade Pro.
Here would be my ideal input configuration:

* Touchbar with haptic feedback to make the buttons feel more concrete * Physical escape key * RGB keyboard with good travel * Regular-size clickpad

Of course, this configuration doesn't exist anywhere.

The new MacBook Pro is intriguing, but I have concerns: * Max 16GB RAM *
Oversized trackpad is going to be a palm-click nightmare * Not sure if I'd
like the new keyboard * GPU performance is unclear---they didn't give enough
details to assess it

Based on the level of detail in the video on Apple's website, I'm clearly not
the target audience of this product. They hardly touched on the actual specs
at all, except in a very handwavy, marketeering way.

I had been waiting to see what Apple would offer before replacing my ancient
laptop. I just might go with the Dell XPS 15 but have been worried about build
quality issues. I'd like something that can play games decently but I'm
willing to sacrifice some performance in exchange for reasonable thermals and
weight. 5.5 lbs is probably my max weight---I use it on my lap a lot.

~~~
6stringmerc
Agreed on all the choices. Getting kind of crazy.

How about my "Wristband Carpal Tunnel Keyboard" concept for all your devices?

[https://medium.com/@6StringMerc/why-i-keep-secrets-as-a-
wann...](https://medium.com/@6StringMerc/why-i-keep-secrets-as-a-wannabe-
inventor-cc06886147d3#.f1czka7g4)

------
audessuscest
wtf Euro prices are 200€ higher than dollars price ?!

$1,499.00 -> 1 699,00 € for the first model

~~~
audessuscest
even upgrade options are more expensive in Euro

~~~
cygned
I have just spent ~2.8k EUR on a 13". Feels a little weird.

------
finstell
I guess, that's the end of it. Hereby, my love relation will die when my early
2015 Macbook Pro dies. There is absolutely no reason I'd update. Nil. What
kind of "pro" would care about a touch bar? It's merely a toy. More often than
not, these machines are attached to larger screens. It's not even going to be
used much even if you wanted to. It's stuck with a 16GB RAM. If I buy it now,
then I will be stuck with a 16GB RAM laptop for several years. The only thing
I can appreciate is it's lighter now, but then I need to carry all the
adaptors for HDMI, SD cards, USB devices. I wonder if it would feel lighter or
a headache to travel with the new MacBook pro. To sum up it up, I would not
consider to replace my 2015 Macbook Pro to a new one even it's for free. What
was needed a lighter, more powerful "pro" computer with more battery juice
maybe. What we get instead? How am I supposed to benefit from this? Will being
able to select emojis from the touch bar increase my productivity?

------
davesque
Ironically, I feel that the touch bar just makes it more glaringly obvious
that the screen itself is not a touch screen. It invites you to expect that
you can interact with your computer via touch. I'm sure there are going to be
a lot of people who go right from tapping some icon on the touch bar to
mistakenly tapping a close button on the actual display. Seems like a UX
failure.

~~~
mixmastamyk
With the touch bar next to the keyboard however, you don't have to raise your
arms up to the main screen. It may make sense on that level.

------
hyperbovine
No more MagSafe? Count me out.

~~~
otterley
Fortunately, a third-party solution already exists:
[https://griffintechnology.com/us/breaksafe-magnetic-usb-c-
po...](https://griffintechnology.com/us/breaksafe-magnetic-usb-c-power-cable)

~~~
kennell
yay, more adapters.

By the time you purchased all the adapters you need you have dropped another
$100

~~~
hyperbovine
To say nothing of the fact that this "solution" is totally inferior to
MagSafe.

I really do not understand what Apple is thinking here... Steve is turning in
his grave.

~~~
otterley
Have you used it? Why do you think it is inferior? (Other than being
unidirectional.)

~~~
hyperbovine
1\. One more little doo-dad to not lose.

2\. It protrudes more than 1cm from the edge of the case, so we're right back
to where we started in terms of things unintentionally dragging the laptop
around.

3\. MagSafe is patented by Apple, and not licensed to anybody. To get around
the patent, other manufacturers had to make an inferior product. In
particular, the polarity of the magnets in MagSafe is optimized to make the
connection as strong as possible, and that's written right into the patent
([https://www.google.com/patents/US7311526](https://www.google.com/patents/US7311526)).
The knockoffs are wimpier.

4\. Dropping $2500 on a laptop and then having to spring for a $40 part than
came from free with your $1700, last-generation laptop is just annoying.

------
bane
So it's looking like Microsoft may now be offering highly competitive and
innovative hardware, now has a *nix subsystem and prompt you can drop to,
better gaming, larger software library and so on, and tons of clone
manufacturers who will ape Microsoft and Apple's offerings at a discount, why
should my next machine be an Apple one?

Arguing with myself, I'd say hardware quality is probably going to be better
from Apple -- but damn that's a hefty Apple tax to pay (and it doesn't stop
when you buy the machine).

I can also say, working in a mixed shop, that most people who got Surface Pros
in the last couple of years are generally happy with them, but they have all
kinds of weird bugs and can be kind of flaky. A few folks with Surface books
report similar issues. So there's that.

But really, this was honestly kind of a disappointing showing a day after
Microsoft pretty much reinvented creative computing.

------
calebgilbert
I really can't believe that 'OLED touchbar' is the lead off for this thing. a)
if I hear 'OLED touchbar' one more time, think I'm going to freak/gag, b) if I
cared less about anything regarding a mac in my life I'm not sure what it is.

Guess I'll be hanging onto my 2011 Macbook Pro a little longer.

------
ohstopitu
I was looking to get a new laptop this year (black friday) and now I have no
idea what I'm getting. I've waited years for a Retina Macbook Air and instead,
we got this.

Overall, I'm less and less impressed with Apple. I am considering getting a
mac mini for iOS development and calling it quits and moving over to the
Windows world.

------
Matthias247
So if I compare the base model (13", no touchbar) with my current-gen 13" pro
I see exactly one advantage:

Thunderbolt 3. Seems nice to have for future docking stations and monitors.
Don't care if only used as a notebook

And lots of disadvantages:

No Magsafe connector, no HDMI (which most current-gen monitors have), no SD
Card, probably a worse keyboard if they adapted the 12" Macbook key style and
300€ more expensive.

The touchbar might be a nice gimmick for some casual users which never used
the function keys anyway. But I guess for most folks here that use their
notebook for programming it will cause more trouble than help. It's not like
most IDEs will support for the touchbar anytime soon if at all. And without
special support it can be only worse then physical keys. They should have
probably offered at least the 15" version without a touchbar too.

------
jandrewrogers
The most interesting new feature (to me) is that a Secure Enclave processor is
built into the laptop. Depending on the details of the implementation, that
may have interesting implications for the overall security of the laptop.

I do agree that the rest of the updates are pretty underwhelming.

------
hartator
I think I am a bit disappointed by the Touch Bar.

I can see it being more annoying than useful. They could have set themselves
apart by doing something grandiose like having small oled screens for each key
that are changing dynamically according to apps and keyboards. But, I guess
this time of true risks are gone.

~~~
frankchn
I can see it going both ways. Some power users will completely customize the
touch bar, while others will just be annoyed at it.

------
msimpson
CNET wrote up a quick comparison table, found here:
[https://www.cnet.com/news/macbook-pro-vs-surface-book-vs-
raz...](https://www.cnet.com/news/macbook-pro-vs-surface-book-vs-razer-blade-
vs-dell-xps-15/)

------
thetinman
100% agree with this. I'm still using the mid 2012 MBP 15 b/c I've waited for
a major upgrade and now this... is probably going to wait 6 months and by the
last MBP at close out prices then use that until the next version of the MBP
because this one fucks up my work too much.

------
zyngaro
I currently have a mid 2012 Macbook air and I love it. I was thinking about
buying a new Mac but now I gonna buy a Thinkpad. Apple strategy has become
clear now. They are targeting the - wealthy that do not care much about
technology and just want a fancy product - part of the market.

------
SnowingXIV
With all this confusion, has anyone figured out the best scenario for 1 cable
to dock for work/home? Are there any good ones made yet? Lot of the third
party docks have different watts and other issues. Plus, with TB3/USB-C
(getting that right is a headache) what are people doing? Just have a million
adapters? I was hoping this would make life more portable not less. I
currently have a MBP 13-inch 2011 that I've upgraded RAM to 16GB and a SSD.
Was waiting for this announcement for a long time and feeling kinda eh.

Thinking ethernet, charge iPhone, external HD, and connect to external monitor
HDMI/DisplayPort?

------
EugeneOZ
Ok, Apple, my current MBPr 13' have i5 2.6 GHz and new MBPr 13' have i5 2.0
GHz. Thanks, bye.

------
ryanmarsh
The 15" is capped at 16GB RAM???

------
adrianlmm
The new touch bar looks pretty useless and unconfortable to use, a missed
oportunity if you ask me.

------
rnernento
I see a headphone jack, that seems downright cowardly.

~~~
overgard
Removing the escape key was courageous though.

------
Yabood
Why do the Apple presenters keep bringing up the whole "use both hands" point
when demoing touch bar. I mean isn't that how keyboards are used? Without
looking I might add. I was ready to drop 3K on a new MacBook pro, but now I'm
not sure.

~~~
grzm
_" Why do the Apple presenters keep bringing up the whole "use both hands"
point when demoing touch bar."_

I think it's to reinforce that it's multi-touch capable.

------
vladimir-y
So now there will be no way to use new Macbooks with Linux/Windows installed
due to that weird numeric touch keys row?

I better consider recently updated HP Spectre x360 with newest Kaby Lake CPU
and usual fn keys row, plus it's convertible if someone needs that.

~~~
thoth
Windows support for the touch bar gizmo will depend on Apple updating their
bootcamp drivers.

As for Linux... I guess somebody will need to reverse engineer and write a
driver for it.

~~~
vladimir-y
Doesn't sound very encouraging, but yes there is no other way since obviously
Apple is not supposed to support Linux/Windows systems.

That Spectre x360 laptop in my opinion does look like a real Macbook
competitor, even a better device in some aspects.

------
mobiuscog
Has _nobody_ in their R&D, user-focus groups, etc., realised the inconvenience
of now moving your focus between 3 disparate areas - the screen, the 'touch'
bar and the trackpad.

With a touch screen, it's all on one surface. Using a mouse / trackpad it's
all on one surface.

Sure, when using the keyboard, you have an additional surface, but then there
are two things to offset it - touch-typing and keyboard shortcuts.

If you really want to help 'non-tech' users who can't manage shortcuts or
mouse/trackpad.... just give them a standard touch screen.

Oh right. It's Apple.

Even using the phone would probably be more 'convenient' for most users in
this category.

------
ommunist
Awww... Can I get "ESC" key on Touch Bar kind of permanent? Does anybody know
that?

------
crazy__joe
So, where do I plug in my new iPhone 7 headphones?

------
dorianm
_Starts stockpiling 2013 Macbook Pros for my lifetime use_

(Seriously the 2013 Macbook Pro 13" feels so perfect)

P.S.: It's weird how they never mentioned programmers in the keynote but I'm
sure they are far more programmers than video editors on Macs

~~~
paganel
> I'm sure they are far more programmers than video editors on Macs

One would thing so, yes, but by reading these HN comments it seems that the
only "professionals" worthy of the "pro" name are photographers and video-
editors. There are even a couple of comments dismissing vim users (?!) for
daring to touch-type, or something similar.

------
gfodor
graphics card on their site for the 15 says its a "AMD Radeon R9 M370X with
2GB of GDDR5 memory", but I think this is the current mbp gfx card. slides
said radeon pro 450. maybe placeholder text didn't get updated?

------
ashishb
Has anyone tried this GNU/Linux notebook alternative:
[https://www.crowdsupply.com/purism/librem-15](https://www.crowdsupply.com/purism/librem-15)?

------
trevorhartman
Any word on max memory? 16GB is standard on 15" but can it be upgraded to
32GB?

~~~
trevorhartman
16GB is the max :( [http://www.apple.com/macbook-
pro/specs/](http://www.apple.com/macbook-pro/specs/)

~~~
lostgame
Reminder that Apple has a solid history about lying regarding maximum RAM in
their hardware.

Wait 'til it's out to get people's actual feedback. ;)

~~~
callahad
Since 2012, all MacBook Pros with Retina displays have had factory-soldered
RAM.

------
orky56
Microsoft Ribbon on the HUD to Apple Touchbar on the Keyboard. I think this
was a natural transition since it is more customizable and baked into more
applications. The mobile/social UIs have created an opportunity for Apple to
make a more modular interface that goes beyond the screen, or at least extends
the screen onto the keyboard.

This also allows Apple to avoid making the primary screen a touchscreen since
they ergonomics don't make sense with the current form factors. Also, by not
making the entire keyboard surface touch it ensures the primary typing
experience with haptic feedback stays intact.

------
chadcmulligan
The touch bar seems interesting, perhaps what I'd like is a separate product
that sits beside my mac and gives the touch bar functionality - something the
size of a trackpad would be fantastic imho.

------
dman
Is there really a return of the 17 inch?

~~~
randallsquared
No, sadly. 13 and 15.

~~~
dman
Sigh. Looks like there is a typo in the article - "According to the company,
it’s the thinnest and lightest version of the Pro to date, with the 17-inch
version of the laptop measuring in at 14.9mm thick. The 15-inch version of the
notebook weighs in at four pounds and the smallest 13-inch version comes in at
three pounds." . That is a cruel error to make since it made me hope for one.

~~~
Hoasi
False hope for me as well. Disappointed already.

------
pacomerh
Apple is really struggling to innovate and its playing it safe with these
updates. It would seem like they fear launching semi-failed products like the
MS Surface RT, Google Glass, Amazon Fire Stuff, etc. What would happened if
they did?. I guess they would become like any other tech company, not so
special anymore. Was Steve Jobs really what this company had on their secret
bag of tricks? or why are they going through this bland face. I would hope to
be proven wrong.

------
kibaffo33
Here is the evidence. The free thinking optimistic innovators of the tech
community are really skeptical pessimists, doubting and disappointed. Like the
rest of us, I suppose.

------
wineisfine
Anyone else here still working on a Macbook Pro 17" ?

Seems like everybody forgot about it, but was a great machine back in the day.
And you could even buy a matte version of the screen.

~~~
buckyball
Yes, i do. I replaced the hdd with a ssd 2 or 3 years ago and i still use it
every day and love it.

------
anupshinde
It seems like they built the touch bar first and then asked people to build
use cases around it. A touch screen with a software enabled touch bar would
have been much better

------
leroman
I cracked it! the laptop was designed for DJs! Now they can scratch and mix
right from the laptop instead of putting it on a stand as if it was a super
model..

------
j45
Boy, I'm a little relieved to have a fully loaded 13" rMBP with 1TB SSD,
doesn't look like the new 13" with touchbar can let you go higher than 256 GB
storage. If one standard was going to be picked, maybe 512 would have been
better for a $3000 computer.

The new Base model rMBP may be the next one for me for that reason for now.
Keep finding it worth to always wait until the 2nd generation of a Mac laptop
before diving in.

~~~
lelandbatey
The new 13 inch rMBP can definitely have up to a 1TB SSD. See this order page:
[http://www.apple.com/shop/buy-mac/macbook-
pro?product=MLL42L...](http://www.apple.com/shop/buy-mac/macbook-
pro?product=MLL42LL/A&step=config)

~~~
j45
Your link has the new rMBP sans touchpad which can be upgraded.

It seems the entry level rMBP with touchpad can't upgrade it's SSD.

[http://www.apple.com/ca/macbook-pro/specs/](http://www.apple.com/ca/macbook-
pro/specs/)

------
fivesigma
Re: the wide gamut display

I really really hope there's proper sRGB emulation for those of us who want to
make content for the 99.99% of users out there.

Edit: not every app is color managed

------
kevindong
The Touch Bar seems like it'll go the way of iOS's/Mac's Force Touch:
completely unused by users and completely unsupported by developers.

------
mherrmann
The touch bar is going to be really useful for a file manager I'm developing
[1]. Traditionally, such file managers use function keys for common tasks (eg.
copy with F5). On Mac, you have to press Fn to get the function keys, which is
very inconvenient. Now my users can use the traditional key bindings _and_
remember them more easily!

[1]: [https://fman.io](https://fman.io)

~~~
EpicEng
Nice plug. Why wouldn't people be able to remap the keys as they like? Using
the function keys for common shortcuts seems wrong.

~~~
mherrmann
People are able to remap the keys [1]. It's just that fman is a dual pane file
manager and in that niche it's been the convention for 20 years to use the
function keys. I also use them on Mac, but I have configured OS X to not
require me to press Fn.

1: [https://fman.io/docs/customizing-fman](https://fman.io/docs/customizing-
fman)

------
poorman
16GB of RAM? Are they serious? I've got 64GB in my MacPro and I can tell you
these electron apps (like Slack) are consistently using 20GB of RAM.

[https://twitter.com/NickPoorman/status/791715570718769153](https://twitter.com/NickPoorman/status/791715570718769153)

Not to mention I use my esc key all day to switch Vim modes in Atom.
Disappointed.

~~~
SCdF
Uhm, surely that's a bug? I can't fathom what Slack would be doing with 20GB
of RAM…

------
calferreira
When most people are discussing Surface Studio on a Mac thread you know that
Microsoft really caused impression and Apple is in bad water.

------
i336_
This will get buried, but I was curious about the Touch ID bit.

It's at the far right edge of the touch strip.

Zoom in on this: [http://images.apple.com/v/macbook-
pro/j/images/overview/intr...](http://images.apple.com/v/macbook-
pro/j/images/overview/intro_large_2x.jpg)

------
josho
It's strange that they killed all the port options, but choose to keep the one
port that was removed from the iPhone (the headphone jack).

I appreciate that Apple kills off older tech to push the market forward. But,
Thunderbolt, USB3, SD cards, nor HDMI strike me as legacy plugs needing a
swift transition. I've yet to encounter a USB-C plug in the wild, so this port
killing is a misstep.

------
mark_sz
Disappointing, almost boring event.

Almost, because it made me laugh when I heard someone saying "incredible"
again and app called "TV" :)

~~~
ajeet_dhaliwal
The presentation at times looked like it was ready made for comedians to
spoof. Tim Cook's delivery is like something out of Office Space. And that TV
section. Statements of the sort "Look! What we've just watched has been added
to the recently watched list.", "This is going to change the way we watch TV."

------
sunstone
The web page itself is a sign of the non-Jobsian direction Apple is taking. I
doubt he would stand for all that shifting javascript crap.

------
quicklyfrozen
Wow, they're dropping the 15" model without dedicated GPU so no 15" under $2k.
Dead silence when they announced pricing. :-)

------
thadk
Is Apple including GPUs in all versions of the 15" now because of any future
move around software development, augmented reality and VR?

Is there really a GPU-4gb guideline on Oculus or is it mostly to do with the
power of the cards. If so, is there any speculation about how these "Radeon
Pro" 450/455/460 cards map to the prevailing laptop GPUs?

------
3adawi
How am I gonna use intellij with function keys :(

------
chiph
"Emoji Bar"

Seriously, who did Apple talk to (besides their navels) in designing this? No
more dongles, Apple. Not on a pro-level device.

------
kriro
So HTC recommends an RX 480 or up as a GPU for the Vive, how does the Radeon
Pro 460 (highest available upgrade for the new MBP) compare to that? I read on
Reddit that it's about 85% the power of an RX 460...so I guess not enough raw
power for VR? Didn't Apple promote the new MBP line as VR-ready or am I
misremembering?

------
sbuttgereit
An aside, but I just watched the "design video" on the Apple site. Does Apple
and Microsoft use the video production team? The exploded device views and the
exploding color dust bombs made it seem like the Apple video and the Microsoft
Surface Studio video were made by the same people at the same time. Very much
the same look and feel.

------
Etheryte
I think a good summary of how "innovative" this release is, is the fact the
news didn't even reach top 20 on HN.

------
anonymfus
There should be a single thread about all announcements on that event to don't
flood front page with separate submissions.

~~~
ihuman
Usually there's a thread for each new/updated device. I don't know if there is
an official policy on it.

------
babygetoboy
For someone who was planning to get this, but not is rethinking, what is a
good PC alternative laptop to get to run linux on?

------
sundvor
Non-physical function keys are a horrible idea for programmers. I wouldn't go
near the new MacBook Pro.

Lenovo quickly learned their lesson about that with the Gen2 of the X1C, and
reverted to Gen1-style layout in the third generation. I could see myself
upgrading then, if my 1st gen still didn't work so well (i7/8/256).

------
beedogs
Apple has officially lost the plot. It's truly sad what's happened to what
used to be such a great company.

------
redditmigrant
This finally settles the vim vs emacs debate.

------
dman
I got downvoted for this comment from 2 days ago
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12783720](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12783720)
=> I am expecting apple to drop both the headphone port and usb ports this
time around. Maybe 2x USB C ports on either side

~~~
stephenitis
close but no cigar. headphone jack is still there.

------
cyphar
Wait, why are they talking about "Thunderbolt 3"? Hadn't Apple finally decided
to use a standardised protocol for its ports (USB C) rather than creating a
new proprietary thing? Or was the Macbook 2015 just an interim design while
they worked on some new bullshit proprietary connector? Goddammit.

------
TurboHaskal
They better show another computer refresh later on to save they keynote. This
is incredibly gimmicky and disappointing.

~~~
davesque
And...nope.

------
gejjaxxita
I'm surprised by the number of people concerned about the lack of ESC key. I
literally never ever use it. Perhaps that's because I've been a Linux user for
most of my life and only recently began using Macs. I use emacs as my only
editor. What do you use ESC for?

------
Longhanks
The website isn't even updated yet...

~~~
robtaylor
It is with UK prices [http://www.apple.com/uk/shop/buy-mac/macbook-
pro](http://www.apple.com/uk/shop/buy-mac/macbook-pro)

~~~
derekmcloughlin
And despite Sterling getting a hammering at the moment, the UK price of the
fully-specced out MBP works out 500 Euro cheaper than the price from Ireland.

------
EpicEng
>And if you really want to go crazy, you can use the 15-inch version to run
two 5K displays side by side

Yeah... I wonder how well it can really do that. The thing that always makes
me hesitant to jump back to a MB Pro is their terrible GPU performance. I hate
spending that much on a machine which can barely run WoW.

------
erickhill
Too many USB types now. Basically if you want the fancy new MB Pro, you have
to sign up for new accessories or lots of ugly (and probably flaky) adapters
all over the place. I totally get it, but it's annoying at the same time. I
wonder if the Refurb Apple store is going to get nailed...

------
aurelienb
Congratulation Apple. You have added the worst feature ever: the touchbar with
adaptive keys. I discover this feature with Lenovo X1 Carbon (not the first
generation): I would have paid not to have it. I lost so many minutes
everyday. [Yes, I know this is optional on MacBook]

------
douche
Why is it being thinner such a draw? This is bordering on too thin for me to
comfortably grip.

I'll stick with the EliteBook I just bought for 10% of this price, and damn-
near every port ever made. It doesn't really bother me that it's about 3"
thick and doesn't have an emoji bar.

------
0x0
No tactile escape key and no magsafe is a bit of a letdown, to say nothing of
tactile function keys :(

------
blinkingled
Apple's price points are no longer attractive anymore for the laptops.
Previously you could buy a current gen MBA 11/13 for decent prices relative to
what they offered. You could also buy MacBook Pros for less - for a 15" the
starting price is now $2399!

~~~
hiram112
Agreed. For non development use, an Air was fine and I'd actually recommend
them at $900 (often on sale at BestBuy or Ebay).

I just bought a brand new Dell Latitude Ultrabook with i7 and SSD for $600
from the outlet store. I added ram for $40 and it has a three year warranty.

An i5 MBP at 2x-3x the cost is no longer worth the OSX premium, especially for
those users who need only a browser and MS Office.

------
Randgalt
Only 16GB!!!! No!!!!!! That stinks.

~~~
jnsaff2
Yeah, total bummer.

------
weinzierl
The new MacBooks are here and one of them will come with function keys and ESC
included. Yeah.

------
lifeformed
How does Apple always have the worst websites? They _never_ work properly for
me. Do they not test in Chrome Windows? The video links never work, the
horizontal sliders are always broken. Aren't they supposed to be good at
design or something?

~~~
JoshGlazebrook
What isn't working for you? I've never had any issues with Chrome on their
website.

~~~
lifeformed
Every time I check out a new product page of theirs I get these problems. The
video players never work or even open, and the horizontal sliders are always
broken or sticky. I turned off all my plugins and nothing helps.

------
Mikho
Fact that majority of comments here in MacBook Pro topic are about Surface
Studio and whether people still use desktops, and not nearly enough comments
about Touch Bar--the only real innovation during Apple event--says a lot about
both events.

------
tarikjn
If I had to take some wild predictions/hopes, I'd say:

    
    
      - The Thunderbolt Display live on with the iMac, the new iMac having
        a new Thunderbolt target mode, allowing USB-C Macbooks to use all
        its peripherals/ports, including the GPU.
      - This new iMac will also be released with a touchbar keyboard
        accessory
      - e-ink keys keyboard will either be released with the new iMac or at
        a later stage, also triggering an update on Macbooks, which, as a
        side effect, will allow Apple to reduce its number of SKUs
      - no new Mac Mini, the iPhone has now enough power to take over that
        role with a new accessory or target mode and code updates on OS X
        allowing everyone with an iPhone to try or use OS X
      - Mac Pro will be updated
    

In short:

    
    
      (1) the thunderbolt display will merge with the iMac
      (2) the Mac Mini will merge with the iPhone

------
weinzierl
The new MacBooks are here and one of them comes with function keys and ESC
included. Yeah!

------
esseti
What's the next tool for developers? i'm happy with my mac pro, but this
"upgrade" has set the milestone for the "don't buy it if you have to develop
software". what do you people buy?

------
jaxondu
Curious will the Touch Bar show the standard function keys when run bootcamped
Windows?

------
setheron
I agree with lots of the sentiment here that the Microsoft lineup looked
superior, but what option do I have if I do lots of development that gets
deployed to a Linux environment.

I know I can do docker/VM but I like the native coding experience.

------
sly010
Fully reinvented .. bla bla .. Our most physically backward incompatible
computer yet!

------
catbird
What would be the best time to buy the previous model of 15" MBP?

The slight bump in processor speed doesn't make up for the loss in
connectivity to me. I don't think I could live without magsafe power and an
integrated SD card reader.

------
israrkhan
no physical escape key.. I suspect this will negatively impact vi/vim
experience.

~~~
coredog64
I guess we know where Apple comes down in the vi vs. emacs war.

~~~
minitech
They make sure to irritate everyone equally by having Control to the right of
Fn.

------
merb
the 15" now has less ssd space for the same price than it had previously, i'm
not sure if that satisfies me. also the lack of good docks for USB-c is a real
bummer. better wait till 17/18 and get one with kaby lake

------
reustle
I'm so happy they are continuing to offer the 13" pro with function keys.

------
headmelted
Spectacular.

What people don't understand is that the reason Apple stays so far ahead of
the rest of the industry year after year is their ability to integrate
software and hardware, which as Jony Ive says in the video, is unique to
Apple.

Bravo.

~~~
sdegutis
Not anymore. The Surface Pro is a great counter example.

~~~
headmelted
I maybe should have been less subtle above, but this was me trolling.

On a side note, I cannot believe in 2016 Jony Ive actually mentioned
integrating software and hardware in a product video. This is a shockingly
disappointing product launch, if only for how lost in the wheat they are.

I'm starting to wonder if there's a very real possibility that Apple's
marketing is so good that they've come to believe it themselves.

------
davesque
Other than the touch bar, I feel like the only really interesting thing here
is the 4 thunderbolt 3 ports. The rest just seems really underwhelming and
leaves me feeling like they hardly put any effort into this.

------
skMed
Do you know anyone that purchased Logitech keyboards for those sweet visuals
on the tiny LCD screen? Me neither. This is a total gimmick. Power users don't
look at the keyboard, it's a waste of time.

------
bitsoda
Constantly having to shift your vision forward and down and back again is a
usability nightmare. This isn't too different from the gimmicky nature of the
Nintendo Wii U. Apple has lost its compass.

------
stillhaveadream
What a waste of my time, was really expecting something better than this.

------
ComputerGuru
So, really, new touchbar aside, the MBP doesn't really bring much to the table
at all, does it? It's a device for pros... who already have the keyboard
shortcuts for the same actions the touchbar provides long since memorized. I
thought this was supposed to be a MacBookPro event - but it seems like it
should be called the Apple touchbar event, really.

I personally found the suggestion that taking my fingers away from my keyboard
to tap on the touchbar for autocomplete suggestions would let me "type faster"
to be beyond ridiculous and even borderline insulting. Obviously Apple
couldn't say - in a room full of developers - "When is the last time you used
a function key?," and instead had to go with an awkward joke about no one
using IBM mainframes any more...

And power users sharing MacBooks? That automatic profile switching belongs on
the new iMac, which is _actually_ a PC meant to be shared with family... oh
wait, there is no new iMac, is there?

Craig also deftly avoided mention of the fact that as soon as you let go of
the function key, the F1-12 buttons disappear once more - at a time when
laptop developers have given up on forcing the alternate Fn behavior over the
standard F1-12 buttons by default.

I'm also concerned Apple won't give a damn about making the UI of applications
accessible and intuitive and simply assume everyone wants to use the touchbar
instead. It seems they've given up on innovating when it comes to desktops and
workstations and have decided to simply shoehorn any mobile innovations they
have into their notebooks rather than come up with something -actually-
useful.

I posted this part yesterday, and I'll post it again:

I just gave up on Apple ever shipping you are MacBooks and received my custom
order HP two days before they announced the October 27th event. My (magnesium
unibody) ZBook is as slim as my retina MBP, has a higher-PPI display, also
comes with a glass trackpad, has user-replaceable battery, 2x M.2 PCIe SSDs,
and upgradeable ram. I was able to pay a bit extra and get it with a mobile
Xeon CPU (E3-1545m with Intel's top-of-the-line Iris Pro 580 integrated GPU)
which is the equivalent of the i7 6920HQ only with more cache and better
graphics, meaning I was able to buy 32 GB of ECC RAM for only $130. It has a
4GB nVidia Quadro and still manages to weigh less than my rMBP.

The only thing that sucks is the noise. It's fairly quiet even with the fan
running at its highest RPM, but the frequency of the resulting noise is very
distinguishable and it has a tendency to rev up and down quite suddenly (and
often). It doesn't help that there are two fans, one on each side, which turn
on and off independently - meaning you can suddenly feel like you've lost
hearing in one of your ears until you realize the noise level is imbalanced.

I don't know if Apple will introduce Xeon workstations (update: they didn't.
The crowd clapped at "6th generation Intel" because they didn't realize it
meant two year old tech), but even if they did, I'm not sure I'm ready to give
up my three USB 3.1 (non-C), three thunderbolt 3 (/USB-C), hdmi, gigabit
ethernet, 3.5mm audio/mic, and power ports along with my function keys,
home/end/page up/page down buttons, Kensington lock slot, and a proper typing
keyboard that celebrates instead of denounces key travel in exchange for a
more-pleasant acoustic profile.

While I _might_ be willing to give up the ECC memory I use with my Xeon 1545m
for the standard DDR4 Apple's new maxed-out MBP configured with an i7 6920HQ
supports (which is otherwise more-or-less identical to the Xeon 1545m, except
with less cache), I'm _definitely_ , over-my-dead-body not willing to trade my
32GB of RAM for the paltry 16GB the new MBP offers [0].

Did I mention I've been a faithful Mac user for over a decade?

0: [https://neosmart.net/blog/2016/apples-best-newest-macbook-
pr...](https://neosmart.net/blog/2016/apples-best-newest-macbook-pro-still-
has-only-16gb-of-ram/)

~~~
TheRealDunkirk
> an awkward joke about no one using IBM mainframes any more...

I was watching the video on my MBPr, while literally writing a C# program on
my work Dell M6800 to automate running programs and fetching the resulting
data... from a mainframe... by embedding a 3270 emulator.

:-/

------
digi_owl
Could have sworn i have seen this come and bomb at least once already...

------
stillhaveadream
Really a waste of my time.

------
sidcool
I for one like the new MacBook pro. Good idea to bring touch id, touch bar
etc. Think programmable bar. I m sure it can be locked to standard mode. HNers
are a tough crowd to please.

------
drinchev
What about upgradeability. I guess the fight is lost. I thought "Pro" stands
for that.

The reason that I will ( probably ) buy Apple MacBooks was narrowed to
software compatibility. So sad.

~~~
mieses
Are SSD and RAM user-upgradeable or soldered on?

------
hittaruki
Thank you apple, for not putting a touchscreen on that. As a developer One of
the reasons I use mac is that, it is one of the few high end laptops without a
touch screen.

------
gnicholas
Seeing this makes me want to go out and buy an 11" MBA (currently running a
2013 model), before they're gone. It reminds me of when the 12" Powerbook was
retired.

~~~
ianai
Long live the 12" powerbook!

------
bluehazed
Vim users: best of luck.

~~~
thatrascaltiger
Now might be a good time to rebind Caps-Lock to Esc.

~~~
bluehazed
(or control ;))

------
ant6n
They said fn-keys are a 45-year-old tech we don't need anymore.

Next up: removing the screen, that's 70-year-old tech we don't need anymore
either. Let's be brave!

------
pisarzp
They could've at least put lightning port in it. Android and Mac users can now
charge and listen to music using same cables, but it's not the case for iPhone

------
ihuman
I'm happy to see the escape button is still there,and you can bring back the
function buttons by pressing the "function" button on the physical keyboard.

------
ROFISH
No Displayport 1.3/1.4 means no 5k displays. :( Why spend thousands on a new
device when you can't even use modern displays from a standard out since 2014?

~~~
madlynormal
A short segment of this event specifically showed the new Macbook Pro
connected to dual 5k monitors.

------
hprotagonist
As long as TouchBar supports IDE actions, we're good. If it doesn't, I'll be
damned if I have to type Fn Ctrl Alt 6 just to step in a debugger.

------
chmaynard
On Hacker News, everyone has an opinion about everything and feels compelled
to share it with the world at every opportunity. Sheesh!

------
JoshGlazebrook
They didn't skimp out on the graphics card for once.

------
greatest-ape
Wow, people are getting very emotional about this. You know, Apple doesn't
have an obligation to create the perfect product for your unique snowflake use
case. And you don't have an obligation to buy any of their products either.
Like, what are you people expecting from Apple?

A few thoughts of mine:

Pros: \- Beautiful, thin, lighter design \- Great screen (could of course have
been even better) \- Fast enough processor for most pro tasks \- Judging by
Apple's history, very good build quality \- Up to 10 hours of battery life \-
A great OS mixing UNIX and support for professional programs

Neutral: \- Touch Bar: might be amazing, might just be an irritation. We don't
know yet. I for one think it could be nice for music production and DJing, but
likely not for programming. A few people actually use the function keys a lot.
As before, they will be available while pressing the fn key. But people might
want real keys. Since I use vim a lot, it's irritating that the Esc key won't
necessarily always be where I expect it to. Sure, it will be available in the
terminal, but in IntelliJ with the vim plugin? I might have to remap Esc to
Caps Lock. An irritation but not a major deal breaker for most people. \- Only
thunderbolt ports. I think this is the right move and in line with expected
Apple behavior, but I guess some people want to be able to simply connect
old/current generation USB peripherals without any adapters \- No more
MagSafe. \- Faster AMD graphics. This is of course nice, except for CUDA
people and people who want to install Linux on their MacBooks (but seriously,
why would you want to do that?) Also, positive: good support for external
screens. But only for certain ones? I'm not sure about this, has anyone
figured out exactly what screens can be used? \- New keyboard, which some
people will like and some won't.

Negative: \- Maximum of 16 GB of RAM, wtf? This is the only major deal breaker
I see that applies to many people. \- Hefty price. But we're talking about
Apple here, folks. Pay to play

To conclude, a great but expensive premium notebook with the major flaw of
being limited to 16 GB of RAM. If you really need CUDA support, real function
keys or have to be able to plug in various peripherals without adapters, this
might not be the right computer for you.

------
adgasf
Does it have lightning so that one can use a single pair of headphones with
the new MacBook Pro and an iPhone 7? Seems like a crazy oversight if not.

~~~
tuxracer
Nope. USB-C and traditional headphone jack only.

------
bdcravens
Given it's only TB3, and the party line is to get adapters, won't this mean
that you'll need to add $100+ to the price for adapters?

------
x0x0dead
ok agreed USB-C is way forward, what about.. -no usb typeB (iphone 7 cable)
-headphone jack mismatch (lightning to 3.5mm) -no hdmi -no sdCard Reader (dslr
pic transfers.?) they should sell a docking station as well., or wait for
802.11ad for wireless hdmi etc but wait no 7th gen intel processors as well.
hmm Mac Pro should be called Mac TouchBar

------
antoaravinth
I'm not sure if I'm the only one who worried about Apple Logo On Screen lid
which is not present in new macbook pro!

------
holografix
The day we get a believable competitor the Apple iPhone the MacBook will be
dead. Zero innovation coming from Apple right now, just amazing!

I love Apple products but I had to buy a Surface Book due to the lack of
updated hardware... guess what: it's a pretty decent laptop and the touch
screen + pen is great.

I expected a little more from Apple. Sorry the lcd Fn keys just don't cut it
for me I hope I'll be proven wrong but right now I think it's quite a poor
gimmick.

------
smnplk
I think my next ultrabook is going to be the new Dell xps 13(Kaby Lake) or
Razer Blade Stealth. Probably not mac anymore.

~~~
stock_toaster
I want to like the xps 13 too, but the non touch model (I want the matte
screen of the non touch model) has a max config of 8gb board soldered ram. :(

~~~
gregwebs
I definitely need matte. Dell sells other laptop models with Linux pre-
installed, some with larger RAM Configurations:
[http://www.dell.com/learn/us/en/555/campaigns/xps-linux-
lapt...](http://www.dell.com/learn/us/en/555/campaigns/xps-linux-laptop)

~~~
stock_toaster
hmm! Nice find. That Precision 15 5000 Series looks like it has fhd antiglare
screen too, and can be configured with up to 32gb ram. A bit pricey but might
be worth it.

------
dfischer
On one hand disappointed - on another hand... what could you really do with a
laptop at this point of innovation cycle?

------
dmritard96
Anybody know what software is used for the design renders/exploded views?
Keyshot, Maya, Blender, something else?

~~~
valine
I'd be more interested in which render engine was used. The animation portion
could be easily be done in any of the software you memetioned. My guess would
renderman due to apples relationship with Pixar, but that's complete
speculation.

~~~
omnimus
Its unlikely pixar is involved. It can be realy anything. But it has nice
realistic atmosphere at times. Looks very unbiased. I would guess Arnold
because unbiased would take too much time and Arnold just has that real vibe
without being too slow.

------
collias
It looks like I'll be waiting for the 2nd gen of this.

Gen 2 wishlist:

\- Something more than 16GB RAM

\- Nvidia GPU (always had issues with ATI)

\- Cheaper option with no Touch Bar

\- MagSafe power

~~~
Kequc
There is a no touch bar option currently. I think you'll get your first two
wishes along with a vastly superior CPU if you wait for second generation.

~~~
yedpodtrzitko
Two ports only is a joke.

~~~
grzm
Which ports do you currently use? On my MacBook Air (13-inch, Early 2015), I
use the MagSafe and either a USB port for charging/syncing a phone or the
ThunderBolt display. If I'm plugged into a display, I'm using USB ports on the
display for charging.

If I were using additional peripherals, I think I'd most likely be using those
when I'm also connected to a display, so I can use the ports on the display
for those as well. That said, for the target market, I don't think it's
unreasonable to think they likely need only two ports the vast majority of the
time.

I'm not saying you don't have a use for more than two ports. Just that "two
ports only is a joke" sounds quite dismissive without any additional details.

~~~
yedpodtrzitko
You're right, I'll be more verbose.

I was looking forward to this event as I was considering getting a new
machine. However the new machines are full of compromises I would need to do
(usual things I hear a lot are "oh you can remap Escape, you can buy a dongle,
you dont need that much ports etc.")

I am a touch-typist (and I use the F keys), so the machine with Touchbar is
no-go for me. What's left? The non-touchbar machine, with two ports. I will
omit the thing I would need a bunch of adapters from USB-C to anything.

If I look on my current setup right now, that would be a charger (1st port), a
monitor (2nd port), a mouse (3rd), a mobile device for development (4th).
Ocasinally I use an external disk too (5th). So if I am doing the math
correctly, I am missing 2-3 ports. I guess that would mean some extra adapters
to be able to connect all of this. All of them on one side of the laptop
(including headphones). That's just mess.

------
sly010
It has a headphone jack. How oldschool.

------
pattisapu
We're here to give you a computer, not a religion.

\- attributed to Bob Pariseau, at the introduction of the Amiga

(fortune of the day)

------
hiram112
Does anyone know what is to become of the 2012 13" model that they still
contine to sell that allows upgradable ram and HD?

You can still find them for $800 on EBay (brand new), but it doesn't look like
it is still available on Apple's site.

There is a 4th 13th inch on the site, instead, but it is not the same as it
has 128 SSD and newer graphics. It would be great if this had upgradeable ram
and HD.

~~~
PhantomGremlin
I think this was discontinued as of yesterday. It was definitely available on
Apple's website until then.

I have one and it's great. Of course I ordered it with SSD, since the default
spinning rust would have made it behave like a slug. But it is 1 pound heavier
than more modern 13" models, and 1.5 pounds heavier than the newest ones just
announced.

Normally I'm OK with the extra weight, but it makes a big difference for the
occasional time that I'm a "road warrior".

Edit: someone linked to a story about it being discontinued.
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12811050](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12811050)

~~~
hiram112
Thanks for the help. Might be time to grab one of them before they're
completely gone on ebay.

------
callesgg
I can live without the legacy USB ports but the lack of HDMI and a magnetic
charging port is harder.

------
hellofunk
I use Apple products for most things in my life, but their marketing
department has jumped the shark. "A Touch of Genius," it reads. Did they copy
this line from page 1 of the "Grand Book of Cliches" ?

If I had just a fraction of a penny for all the times in my life I've heard
this phrase, I could buy a majority ownership in Apple, Inc.

------
claudiug
given the new mac book pro, genuine question:

What is the best linux notebook that close the gap with macbook pro?

~~~
anuragsoni
I have been using the Dell Developer Edition since April of this year. There
were a few hiccups because of some driver issues related to their USB-C dock
(Correct me if i'm wrong, but I guess this problem was not limited to just
their linux laptop?)

Ever since upgrading to Ubuntu 16.04 things have been pretty smooth. I believe
any distro with a 4.4 series kernel or higher will behave pretty well.

Before this I had a thinkpad T series (I miss the keyboard, and the abundance
of ports. It was really good), and I never had any problem with running any
distribution of Linux.

In Summary: I think you cannot go wrong with either a Thinkpad or the Dell
Developer edition. They are well made machines with good support for linux.

~~~
rorykoehler
I've been looking around. These look like sub-par options. Horrible plastic
cases are a deal breaker. Also the track pads seem to be toy like compared to
the macbook pro. I've been waiting to get a new mbp but after yesterdays
announcement I'm not so keen anymore. Would love to switch to a linux machine
but the hardware needs to be equal or better than the mbp not only in specs
but in quality of finish.

~~~
anuragsoni
The Dell developer series isn't made of plastic. And the trackpad is really
good. I'd put it on the same level as the MacBook.

------
bfrog
How many apps will really support this for the one or two generations that
actually have it?

------
cpr
Of course, as some wag said a while ago, the cost of the MBP that I want
remains at $3K. ;-)

~~~
mikestew
I don't know if John Dvorak was the first to say it, but I recall him saying
that in PC Mag (?) in the mid-80s: the price of the computer you _want_ will
always be about $3K. Less accurate over the last ten years or so, but for Macs
it remains true.

------
sly010
Apple will literally replace the keyboard with a touchscreen an inch at a
time. Then everyone will follow suit, so we will all have to use external
wireless keyboards (because the USB3- USB2 adapter will cost more than a new
keyboard). Fast forward 5 years and Apple will announce "Macbook Bro", a
laptop with a tactile buttons!

------
rdslw
Hurry. I need to buy previous generation macbook pro while supplies last.
Three years more!

------
jakebasile
They are also still selling the old models. For the same price as when they
were released.

------
jblake
Not thrilled, but I need to replace my 2011 Air. Apple has me in the corner
with Xcode...

------
0942v8653
For some reason the old page is still showing up for me. The only new thing is
this image from the homepage:

[http://images.apple.com/v/home/cy/images/gallery/macbookpro_...](http://images.apple.com/v/home/cy/images/gallery/macbookpro_large.jpg)

------
hota_mazi
"Our best addition so far: the removal of the ESC key!".

Just kidding.

You can still have one but we moved it.

------
elcct
With W10 having usable Ubuntu built in I can hardly see a use case for having
a mac.

------
sly010
Where will I stick my yubikey?

~~~
sly010
[https://www.yubico.com/2016/07/yubikey-route-
usb-c/](https://www.yubico.com/2016/07/yubikey-route-usb-c/)

------
sprite
Seriously, no 32gb ram option?

------
seaghost
When you look at the venue you see how much they appreciate MacBook brand.

------
banhfun
They actually removed the USB ports and function keys, the absolute madmen!

~~~
dandandan
They added more USB ports; there are four now.

~~~
wkoszek
Don't be blinded.

I think there are 2, because if you're a hacker or a designer or a home user,
you quite likely have a Mac hooked up to the power and the 2nd screen :)

------
laurent123456
Still no 17-inches version unfortunately. I don't get why they no longer make
one - is there no demand at all for it? It's basically why I've switched to an
ASUS laptop since I don't want to bother with an external monitor (not to
mention the extra cost).

------
btym
_> The space is a small multitouch screen that utilizes gestures and taps to
perform a wide variety of different tasks_

Oh, like trackpad gestures?

 _> from showing typing suggestions to displaying tools for various apps – all
based on the context of what the user is doing at the time._

Oh, like a toolbar?

------
cowardlydragon
Monitors: just buy a quad HD TV for 40-55" for five hundred bucks.

------
HugoDaniel
Does this mean i can put an external gpu in those thunderbolt ports ?

------
noir-york
All I wanted was an updated Macbook Air. Instead we get a toy bar.

Quo vadis Apple?

------
winteriscoming
Esc key gone? Using vi editor is going to be much more fun now!

------
elcct
13 inch only 8GB? Wat...

~~~
thoughtsimple
upgradeable to 16 GB

~~~
elcct
ah, true you can upgrade at checkout

------
0x7fffffff
So, does it charge faster if you plug in multiple chargers?

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out_of_protocol
* two colors, yay!

* model with physical keys is shit (2x less USB-C, way worser CPU etc)

* no physical keys for 15"

* [http://i.imgur.com/1Y0Elul.png](http://i.imgur.com/1Y0Elul.png) :)

* jack 3.5 in all models - not brave enough

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yasky
I am sorry, does anyone know how to navigate this comment page??? I can't even
find the 2nd comment. The first comment has tons of replies and I have
scrolled 30 pages and cant even find the 2nd comment.

~~~
PhantomGremlin
There are now collapseable comments. Just click on the [-]. This works at any
level of hierarchy. Of course, you need JavaScript enabled for that to work.

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HugoDaniel
headphone jack ? what kind of treachery is this ? :D

~~~
wkirby
Where will I plug in my new lightning headphones...

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LeicaLatte
Microsoft’s dominance over desktops has never changed. Be it servers, PCs or
game consoles. And it is Apple who have forged their own path into mobile
computing these last 15 years.

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erikb
At the time of this writing this article has 748 points and 1530 comments. For
an uncommented link to a product page, really? This is not a shopping site!

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ianai
am I the only one wondering who wanted a 67% brighter display? I for one would
like a display without a backlight...

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msh
Seems like the mac mini is dead.

I rather liked that one :(

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emilecantin
At least they kept the headphone jack...

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arcosdev
Not nearly enough RAM

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pmyjavec
Apple...less is more

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SocratesV
Understand that for most, yesterday's event was a disappointment. For me it
was a good step in the right direction, despite the boring presentation.

(I'm speaking as an Apple user, not claiming Apple came up with all these
first)

1\. Touch

First they made Apple users get used to, in laptops, working with a trackpad
for more functionality than just moving the mouse and clicking. Then they
reduced the profile of the keys. Now they've introduced a touchscreen in our
keyboard area.

Wouldn't be surprised if we see a move towards a full touch keyboard. How? Not
sure. Today "me" would think of some kind of glass like material that could
display any layout and image while molding its surface to it (or at least
something like the Optimus keyboard done properly). Tomorrow "me" will
probably thinking of completely getting rid of it and using the future AirPods
as wireless brain interfaces (you can ridicule me for this if you want, I know
I would).

Nevertheless, we got physical keys replaced by something more flexible and
that will give us a more meaningful interface for what you can do depending on
the context we are working in. Alpha-numeric shortcuts will always have a
steeper learning curve than an good icon or descriptive button (some real
estate issues there for the number of combinations, one for UX to solve).

Know that this doesn't seem much, but it is once you start thinking of the
possibilities and that it's only the beginning of what's to come.

Will talk about Microsoft later in this comment...

2\. "Standard" ports

Finally! Thunderbolt 3/USB-C.

Dongle fest? Maybe in the first year or two. Then it means every single
peripheral (power, external SSD, network, screens) will only use one physical
interface to connect to your Apple laptop (others have also started doing
this, so the wheels are in motion already).

What about your old peripherals? I'm a hoarder when it comes to tech, so still
have PS/2 keyboards and mice at my parents'... Remember then? What about
Serial? Sure, it was over a longer period of time, but things evolve quite
faster now, especially when you are trying to simplify and make things
smaller, lighter. Different physical interfaces are the enemy in these cases.

As I've previously said, was surprised that the iPhone 7 didn't come with
Thunderbolt 3/USB-C. Imagine it was either some control issue they wanted to
maintain or didn't want to rebuild/refactor that part of the device just yet.
Would expect the next iPhone to make the jump and join the USB-C family.

Have addressed the issue of SD Cards and such in comments in the iPhone 7
thread. The future is wireless, which is also valid for cameras. Pain in the
short term, bliss in the medium-long. My 2 year old Panasonic compact camera
has Wi-Fi, others have Bluetooth (and I'm not saying it's the best experience
as it is, mostly due to poor attention to the software, since cards are still
the preferred way).

3\. Apple TV

They now seem to be a bit more serious about Apple TV. Why? Remember when they
used to go silent for years?

Sure, nothing groundbreaking or that it hasn't been done by others, but it is
becoming a more enticing device now that they are at least catching up to the
rest of the devices. Still think that using it for socialize during sports is
grasping at straws. You know you want full screen for the transmission and
just use your smartphone/tablet to comment... Maybe work on a better
integration there?

4\. What about computing (CPU, memory, graphics) power?

Need more than 16GB of RAM at this stage? Better graphics card? Mac Pro. Want
a laptop? Not Apple at this point.

Wait for the next iteration. This wasn't one of those, as you only change so
much between them to minimise complications.

5\. What about the Air?

Look at the Macbook and the new Macbook Pro? The Air was the spearhead, the
prototype that made both possible and prepared the audience, it will
potentially die, which kind of makes sense (the amount of choice was becoming
overwhelming and probably not that efficient from a production POV: more lines
to manage and maintain, less focus on each one).

6\. Microsoft

Yes, their new computer looks nice, for people in graphic design and
audio/video editing maybe.

Going to be polemic, but I think the dial is a gimmick and will be the source
of a lot of frustration. You can already do a lot with touch and I reckon
physical device feedback is still better than bland plain touch. However apart
for a niche application, I don't see the general public using it.

Big touch screen? Unless they revolutionise the way we do touch and interact
with the OS, and I hope they do, it will get boring and a pain to use for most
people that simply browse, watch videos, listen to music, send emails and play
some games. Kids? You probably go for an iPad Pro or equivalent, something you
can carry around easily.

Final thoughts

My take on Apple at the moment is that, despite what people say, that they've
lost their way and are doomed, I think that's not going to happen, they do
have a vision for their ecosystem and they are focusing on it, both on the
hardware as well as well as the services side and experience.

They are slowly introducing changes which minimises the risk (of going down
the wrong path) and allows them to learn more from users as they go. Think
that 5 years from now when you look back, the evolution and experience will be
quite clear (and again, the mostly mocked AirPods are going to be pivotal in
this, not because of the sound or current function but because of what, as a
device to be developed, they'll enable).

We cannot expect big bang innovation every year or even every few years and
when it does happen, you then take a while to refine it and make it better.

~~~
zimpenfish
> Wouldn't be surprised if we see a move towards a full touch keyboard.

Well, Apple did buy FingerWorks[1] who used to make the multitouch "zero
force" TouchStream keyboards[2].

[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FingerWorks](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FingerWorks)
[2]
[http://ergocanada.com/products/keyboards/fingerworks_lp.html](http://ergocanada.com/products/keyboards/fingerworks_lp.html)

------
frenck
Time to hit ESC... ow... wait... :( :S

~~~
pvdebbe
There's no escaping the Apple walled garden!

------
obiefernandez
Where the hell are the USB ports?

~~~
wkoszek
They got smolla :)

------
cygned
Just bought one.

Too sad, the MacBook Air is dead.

------
mick_schroeder
Can it play Civ VI?

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floor__
I can't believe they didn't increase the ram. Wait till next year I guess.

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emars
microsoft employees pls go

------
vermooten
meh

I'm sad that i waited this long only to be disappointed.

It was a COO's view of being innovative.

------
nwrk
The ESC on touch bar is really funny

------
adamnemecek
Do apps have to be changed to use the OLED bar or does it work automagically.

------
Matachines
A sorta-maxed out non-Touch 13" Pro looks perfect except the lack of ports :/

------
wkirby
I'm beginning to think Steve Jobs didn't die, he just got hired by Microsoft.

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msie
Does it have user-serviceable memory? I doubt it.

~~~
msie
Really? -4 points? Valid question since I have a Macbook Pro from 2012 which
does have user-serviceable memory. "Pro" should count for something.

~~~
mixmastamyk
[http://arstechnica.com/apple/2016/10/apple-quietly-kills-
non...](http://arstechnica.com/apple/2016/10/apple-quietly-kills-non-retina-
macbook-pro-it-sold-for-four-years/)

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leitasat
No USB-C port? That's I call consistency!

~~~
morinted
All four ports are Thunderbolt 3, which _is_ USB C compatible, plus some extra
features.

------
milankragujevic
DAAAMN what a disappointment. No Mac Mini, no iMac... Well, might as well not
buy a new computer afterall... :S

~~~
dasmoth
I think Apple are looking to kill off desktops within a few years now. If you
watched the event, they had a sequence showing a "pro workstation" with a
laptop taking the "keyboard position on the desk" plus external monitors and
thunderbolt storage. That's where they're heading...

~~~
josho
That's fine for Pro's, but a silly strategy for the home/family market.

Buying a mini is a no brainer. Buying an iMac is a bit iffy compared to PCs on
price. But, a MacBook + display is a no go for most homes.

I suppose Apple feels their iPads will target the home market.

~~~
dasmoth
I don't think they expect home users to use an external display for "work"
usage. For video or casual gaming you can connect to a TV.

(Not necessarily happy with this logic, but I think it's the direction they're
headed...)

------
aabajian
The top 14 comments are negative. Five of them are about Microsoft's
announcement yesterday. It's almost as if MSFT is paying for these comments.

