
BuzzFeed employees demand it pay out earned PTO to all laid-off U.S. staffers - cribbles
https://techcrunch.com/2019/01/27/buzzfeed-employees-demand-it-pay-out-earned-pto-to-all-laid-off-u-s-staffers/
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abarringer
When I left AVG Technologies (now owned by Avast) I figured they would try to
screw me on this. I copied a line out of the employee handbook, that I had to
sign a receipt for and acknowledge I had read, that said "All accrued unused
vacation will be paid out in full on an employees termination" sent that line
to HR and asked them if they would pay my vacation if I left. They replied,
you work in FL which does not legally require us to pay it so no. Anyways, I
showed my direct supervisor the email from HR, worked two weeks then took
three weeks off. When "I got back from vacation" I turned in my notice and
walked out even though the handbook said a two week notice was required...
because FL is a right to work state and you do not legally have to turn in a
two week notice. We each enjoyed our own groups at AVG but "Corporate" was
just evil.

~~~
jjeaff
Good for you. Too many people don't stand up for themselves in situations like
these. My grandmother had more than 125 sick days built up when she retired
after 40 years of teaching elementary school.

They told her that a recent change in policy would mean she would only be paid
for a maximum of 30 of those days.

I told her that alone would be enough to make me sick to my stomach for about
125 days (pretty much an entire school year), after which I would be ready to
retire.

Luckily she is at least aging gracefully and goes to the gym daily. She's been
collecting that sweet defined benefit pension for 25 years and will probably
get another 10 out of it at least.

~~~
mhb
Why should people be paid for sick days that they didn't use because they
weren't sick? Otherwise what is the distinction between sick days and vacation
days?

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lmm
If the employer is applying a limit to how many you're allowed to take then
they're acknowledging that they're really vacation days (that you can take at
short notice). Otherwise there would be no limit, because it's not like you
control how often you get sick.

~~~
ghaff
No, but you can go on short-term (or long-term) disability at many companies.
There's an unfortunate pooling of sick time/personal time/vacation time at
many companies today. But, in the US, it used to be absolutely the norm to
have separate PTO and sick days and you were only expected to use the sick
days if you were sick. (And they typically didn't roll over.)

And, if you left for whatever reason, you were paid out your accrued PTO
(which often had an accrual cap) but not sick time.

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Pinbenterjamin
I agree with the idea that all accrued PTO should be paid out, if the release
of the employee was the decision of the company.

I also would like to add, that Buzzfeed did not simply throw these people out
the door and into poverty, they did provide severance and benefits through
April, which should be plenty of time to find another source of income
(hopefully).

"BuzzFeed’s laid-off employees received a severance of a minimum 10 weeks pay,
and benefits through April. Taylor’s response to the petition’s organizers
said the company wants to meet with staff to discuss the issue"

~~~
ohyes
Pto is part of your compensation.

It goes on the books as a liability, which is why a lot of companies are doing
‘unlimited vacation’ now. (And why others don’t want to roll vacation from one
year to the next). If they don’t owe you a certain amount of vacation, they
don’t have to pay it out when you quit.

But if they do owe it, they do have to pay you.

~~~
ngngngng
This is not the case in Utah. I started my career in California and left a
previous job in Utah with weeks of PTO unused and was shocked to discover
there was no legal requirement to pay me for that time.

~~~
WrtCdEvrydy
This is why you check your employment contract or ask your HR department if
they paid out PTO for previous people who left.

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who-knows95
I'm a young male working in cyber security, but before this i was a trained
cocktail barman/supervisor. this means i worked weekends, 12 hour shifts,
holidays, whatever was needed to keep the bar running. (i felt super burned
out, and i was only doing this 4 days a week)

now i work in a office, doing this cyber security work. i would never stay
past 5:30, i'd never forgo PTO, or force myself to over work myself beyond
respectable limits.

“This is paid time that employees accrued by choosing not to take vacation
days, and instead do their work at BuzzFeed,”

when i read things like this it just strengthens my feelings towards it.

is this the right attitude?

~~~
guitarbill
> now i work in a office, doing this cyber security work. i would never stay
> past 5:30, i'd never forgo PTO, or force myself to over work myself beyond
> respectable limits.

> is this the right attitude?

being professional and setting boundaries is absolutely the right attitude.
it's just a job.

~~~
who-knows95
thank you

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not_a_moth
Fun story. I worked at a "trendy" SV startup. I was hired in a wave of
employees around the start of the year. I took no PTO. Around the end of the
year they announce they are moving to an unlimited PTO plan. No one got paid
for unused PTO that year.

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Loughla
I don't care for unlimited PTO. Here's why:

When I accrue time off, you as the employer and I as the employee have a
written contract on what that time is for, when it can be used, and why it can
be used. It places parameters on my time, yes, but it also is an actual
agreement between the two of us, in objective terms.

Whereas unlimited PTO sounds nice, it also opens up more problems between
myself and workplace 'culture'. It's so subjective and down to personal
opinion as to whether or not I'm abusing the system.

It just tastes bad. I've worked in both environments, and I much rather prefer
the structured environment. There seems to be far less drama and nonsense
related to taking time off.

~~~
finaliteration
Part of why I left my last job was due to its “unlimited PTO” policy feeling
more like a “you don’t -actually- have any days we really owe you so you’ll
catch shade every time you take time off” policy. I now work for a place where
I have a set amount of PTO that accrues so I feel more entitled to using it
without feeling bad about it because if I don’t then it’s gone.

Unlimited PTO is one of those things that sounds great to potential employees
who have never experienced it. Until you get in and realize you end up taking
way less time off than if you just had 15 set days or whatever.

~~~
rdtsc
> “you don’t -actually- have any days we really owe you so you’ll catch shade
> every time you take time off”

That's the idea behind it. It's a huge red flag for me.

But it looks fantastic on paper. The problem is you don't know how you'll be
judged if you do take the time off. They'll never come and say "hey it looks
like you took 5 weeks off this year". They'll just say "it looks like you're
not realizing your full potential". So it allows for a lot more sinister
manipulation and control.

It could even be coming from peers, managers, HR it doesn't matter. "Gee, so
and so in on vacation... while we are slaving here at 8pm at night. - Haha. Of
course he is, eye roll..." kind of stuff. And maybe the employee was having a
family crisis and needed to spend time with their loved ones but it's not
something they'll broadcast but people will imply various things and assume
not the very best of intentions.

If the company is so darn generous, just give everyone 6 weeks off and make
everyone take it.

~~~
ghaff
Yeah. I'm not opposed to the idea in principle. "Managing" my time off around
business travel, projects on a deadline, etc. can be a real PITA. (And, to be
clear, I've taken essentially my full earned vacation--or have been paid for
unused time when I've left--through my entire career.)

But, IMO, any company with this policy needs to establish some guidelines and
management from the top down needs to walk the walk to show that they really
expect employees to take 4-6 weeks off (or whatever) and stay home if they're
sick.

Otherwise, it's just about keeping liabilities off the books.

~~~
Domenic_S
Manager at BigCo here, that's exactly what I do in my "welcome to the
team/company" email. We call it "untracked", not "unlimited" vacation, and I
make that distinction clear also.

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ghaff
Untracked is a MUCH better term (especially paired with some general
guidelines). Thank you for that.

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mywacaday
As a European every time I read articles like this and the comments that go
with it it makes me happy that I never moved to the states. In my last job I
had a basic of 25 days PTO + public holidays + whatever days I carried over
from the previous year. If I had to work a public holiday I'd get two days PTO
in lieu. Reached the point that my allowance for my last two years before I
left was 35 days per annum. I'm contracting for the last three years and just
take the days(unpaid) I want , I just can't imaging living under the American
system.

~~~
mbrameld
That's worse than what I receive as an American. Sorry to shatter your world
view!

~~~
cribbles
You are an extreme outlier. American workers have on average nearly half as
many vacation days as are legally mandated in the EU,[1] while EU member
states have more public holidays than the United States.

[1]
[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_minimum_annual_leave...](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_minimum_annual_leave_by_country)

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rdtsc
Surprised this isn't illegal in most states. Good on California for having the
law.

And of course, if you do take PTO that you haven't accrued yet for the year,
and then leave, companies will claw it back, that's legal and "fair" but
paying it out if you don't take it and have some left somehow never managed to
becomes a law.

It's also disappointing that this comes from BuzzFeed. One would expect this
from some fast food restaurant chain and BuzzFeed would be at the forefront,
doing a lot more for its employees.

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joshstrange
This hits close to home as I'm currently in the process of revamping our
handbook and one thing I've fought for for some time is the ability to be paid
out or "take" PTO if you leave the company on good terms (ie. 2 weeks notices,
you aren't on a PIP, etc). My main arguments is our PTO is accrued (not front
loaded) and I feel it is part of my compensation package and I am owed it. The
run-around I've gotten in the past is PTO is a benefit not compensation (I
honestly don't see a difference) and it would cost the company too much to pay
out PTO.

My thoughts are this should be treated like 401K contributions where the
company HAS to set aside the full amount of money even if the employee isn't
fully vested (they get it back if they leave before fully vesting). Also, in
my mind, this is easily solvable with just continuing to pay the employee for
the duration of their PTO when they leave. That way it's not an increase, it's
just the status quo. It would be the same as taking all your vacation then
coming back and putting in your 2 weeks (or just leaving).

Would love to know any arguments you all have or have made regarding this
situation.

~~~
fbonetti
From the employee's side, there's too much risk and uncertainty around PTO
when leaving a job. It's easier to just take a vacation before putting in your
notice than to haggle with your employer after the fact, when you have no
leverage. This is especially true with companies that offer "unlimited
vacation" in which PTO does not accrue.

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cletus
Every time I see a company go belly up and the employees get screwed I wonder
why there's not protection for this.

IMHO regular employees should be treated as creditors of first priority for
unpaid wages/salary, PTO and any IRA/401k benefits. This should probably
include COBRA health insurance for some period of time (this may already be
covered?).

This means paying regular employees should come ahead of repaying investors,
banks, bondholders, etc. And this should be mandated by law.

Likewise unused PTO should be paid out for all employees who leave a job.

~~~
whatok
In almost any case, employees who have unpaid wage claims are treated as
secured creditors. I'm not sure what you mean by IRA/401k benefits as these
are usually employer administered but held by the employee and should be
shielded from any sort of bankruptcy. As mentioned earlier here, PTO is
treated differently state by state. Most of what you have a gripe with is
already covered by existing bankruptcy law.

Sure, if there's no recovery value in a bankruptcy, employees aren't going to
get paid back wages but no one else is getting paid either.

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magduf
Am I missing something? I thought it was _illegal_ to not pay out accrued PTO.
(If it isn't, it certainly should be.)

~~~
cco
Can't wait to get my unlimited PTO paid out!

~~~
pavlov
One of the reasons why "unlimited PTO" is a bit of a scam.

~~~
wolco
Never been in this situation but couldn't you just take off a few months with
unlimited vacation or even a few years.

~~~
reportingsjr
You are pretty much guaranteed to get let go if you tried to do this without
having a very good reason and a very understanding boss. Even though it is
called "unlimited" that doesn't mean you actually get to take unlimited
vacation.

~~~
ryandrake
So, it’s like “unlimited” Internet data plans.

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puranjay
As an aside, why does a meme site have so many employees? I know a few
entrepreneurs who run Buzzfeed clones and they run on a skeletal staff of
freelancers.

I know that the news division needs dedicated journalists, but the main site
is basically rehashing existing content. Surely you don't need 2,000 employees
for that.

~~~
greglindahl
BuzzFeed does two things: they're a meme site with actual, serious
investigative journalism sharing the same brand.

~~~
shard972
So are they just a serious journalistic website now they have fired their
opinions section?

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detaro
previously (16 hours ago):
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19014373](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19014373)

~~~
minimaxir
It's interesting to see the difference in attitudes/voting patterns on this
thread than the previous thread.

------
minimaxir
This article contains the BuzzFeed CEO, Jonah Peretti's response which wasn't
available yesterday. He's also discussing it a bit on Twitter:
[https://twitter.com/peretti/status/1089914253857894401](https://twitter.com/peretti/status/1089914253857894401)

Additionally, the layoffs are not done yet. :(

~~~
simonsarris
CEO:

> I can’t really have this discussion in public, can’t share all relevant
> information on twitter, but I look forward to being very open-minded and
> transparent with the staff council in our upcoming meeting

Seems... dishonest. What precisely prevents him from having it in public
besides his desire not to?

~~~
TomVDB
There are always potential legal issue with layoffs. It seems reckless to have
that kind of discussion in public.

I don’t see that as dishonest (really, how is it?), I see that as being
cautious.

~~~
simonsarris
Can't vs won't. He's making a choice, which is probably the wiser decision,
but by saying "can't" he's offloading the responsibility of the choice.

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paulddraper
They buried the lede: Buzzfeed is paying 10 weeks benefits and salary instead.

They'd probably save a lot more if they had paid for PTO and only PTO.

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randomacct3847
Isn’t the amount of severance a company like Buzzfeed decides to give out
completely arbitrary? I don’t know if there’s stats by industry but 10 weeks
seems above average. E.g. they could’ve paid out PTO but given only a month of
severance (4 weeks) instead of 10 and most employees would be better off with
current situation than the former?

~~~
whatok
In a lot of WARN notice cases, severance mysteriously lines up with the 60 day
notice requirement. Draw your own conclusions from that. This is above but not
such a crazy amount to be considered generous.

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mancerayder
My plan, the next time someone offers me a role with unlimited PTO, is to tell
HR and management before I join that I plan on taking four weeks vacation due
to needing to see family overseas. If someone whines later, they were warned.

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sonnyblarney
Perhaps the worst hypocrisy is that the publication promotes on a daily basis
their own version of 'social equality and justice' etc. which they themselves
don't bother to live up to? Funny that.

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pcurve
Hrm, you would think companies should be legally required to have a separate
pool of cash for unused PTO, and transfer $$$ to their cash book as employees
use them... I'm sure some already do this.

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hhanesand
Maybe instead of lobbying the company we should lobby to change the law...

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bonaldi
It's still a mystery why they didn't unionize when they had the opportunity.
They believed Jonah would look out for their interests more than they
themselves could?

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pjdemers
so, everyone who is left at BuzzFeed will use all of their accrued PTO as
quickly as possible?

~~~
coding123
My recommendation is to use it all up and quit the day you come back with no
notice.

~~~
kaikai
If you quit you don’t get unemployment; better to get layed off in that case.

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newnewpdro
Add PTO protection to the long list of California wins.

~~~
niij
High taxes and widespread homelessness caused by a housing crisis. Nowhere is
perfect.

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jordache
this practice is legal? Isn't that part of the earned benefits?

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vkou
I am consistently told that unions used to be a good thing, but are completely
unnecessary, now that they have fought for, and won all the important employee
rights.

And now I read that in 45 US states, companies don't have to pay what they owe
you in vacation time, when you get laid off.

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grdeken
This is misleading. All employees got 2.5 months of salary. Do you want your
2-3 weeks of PTO or would rather take 10 weeks of paid leave? Legit fake news.

~~~
paxy
Except employees in California got both

~~~
dragonwriter
Because California employment law requires paying out PTO.

Employees outside of California who want the benefits of California law should
lobby their State government to adopt similar rules.

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malvosenior
You would not normally be paid for accumulated vacation time so I’m not sure
why they’re asking for this other than they have enough combined social media
presence to make management capitulate.

~~~
tylermac1
Every job I've had has paid accrued PTO/Vacation when being let go or even
leaving on your own will.

~~~
wil421
Every job I’ve had does not pay accrued PTO no matter how you left the
company. Most states do not require companies to pay out accrued PTO.

~~~
wolco
In Canada you pay 4% towards your vacation each year so it is paid at the end
regardless.

~~~
elliekelly
Can you explain how this works? What do you mean you pay 4% towards your
vacation? Like the employee contributes 4% of each paycheck to some sort of
escrow account?

~~~
Sgt_Apone
The employer pays it for both part and full-time workers. The rates differ by
province, but generally this works out two weeks of wages for the first few
years with an employer - they can increase this if they want but that's the
legal minimum.

In practice this just means that you can take two weeks and still get paid.
You can forgo your vacation in some instances, but you still get paid out the
vacation money. I used to do that when I worked part-time in college and was
short of cash for whatever reason.

Ontario's rules - [https://www.ontario.ca/document/your-guide-employment-
standa...](https://www.ontario.ca/document/your-guide-employment-standards-
act/vacation)

