
Self-Control Matters Far More Than Raw Intelligence - discolemonade
http://madepublishing.com/wp/2010/09/self_control_is_way_more_important_than_iq_and_why_doubting_it_get/
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chc
The article takes as given that people who hack rather than watch Netflix do
so because of their superior self-control — does anybody else doubt that?

I've had times in my life when I've been really prolific and times when it
would take a Herculean effort to get anything worthwhile done. When I'm
prolific, it's not because I'm exercising self-control to stop myself from
watching Netflix — I'd just rather work on Thing X than watch a movie. When I
find myself watching Netflix instead of putting in time on something I've been
wanting to do, it's because _at that moment_ the movie is more appealing than
the work. It's the same force pushing in different directions.

I'm not saying you can get by with no self-control (there are always some less
pleasant things you need to do), but I think taking this article at face value
might lead people down the wrong path.

~~~
aik
I can relate with the article in that I've noticed in myself that if I ever go
a week where I watch more movies/TV than usual, I VERY quickly notice myself
feeling like it's OK to watch that amount, or more, in the future. Actions of
that comfort turn very quickly into habits, and that's where the real danger
lies - falling into comfort. It's really why so many people work boring jobs.
I bet you a good amount of them have dreams, but are too comfortable and lack
the "metacognition" (or vision, self-control, foresight, execution skills) to
take action.

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j_baker
There will probably be a lot of people who will disagree with me on this, but
here I go anyway: I think self control and discipline are overrated. Some of
my best work has come out of me being distracted and unfocused.

I generally find that it's better to indulge my lack of focus in a controlled
manner than it is to try fighting it.

~~~
Quiark
What kind of work was it? Something highly creative? EDIT: those who upvoted
as "me too" can answer too.

~~~
knowledgesale
I think that he isn't going to answer. He has got distracted.

~~~
j_baker
Funny. But for the record, HN _is_ the distraction. Therefore, I would be
distracted if I _did_ respond. :-)

~~~
Hexstream
And you did...

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TamDenholm
I consider myself to have a hell of a lot of self control, sometimes to a
fault. There have been times in my life that I feel less self control would
have helped me.

For instance, ive been in a few one way fights in my life, I've never hit
anyone back. I remember the adrenalin rushing through my body and the fight or
flight response gearing up, but my mind overcomes that and I usually end up
talking myself out of it or someone else interjects.

But because I control the fight or flight I end up getting the shakes after
the incident because I didn't fight back nor run away, since shaking is the
physiological response to burn off the adrenalin.

Personally, I feel I'd have done a lot better in those situations if I'd acted
on impulse and actually fought back. Hell even running away could've served me
better aswell.

~~~
logicalmind
What you experienced is completely normal in violent situations. If you want
to read a very good book on reactions and consequences of violent situations
you should read this:

[http://www.amazon.com/Meditations-Violence-Comparison-
Martia...](http://www.amazon.com/Meditations-Violence-Comparison-Martial-
Training/dp/1594391181)

Even if you've never been in a violent encounter, this book will help you
understand how you will react. Keep in mind, you don't choose when you become
part of a violent situation, violence chooses you.

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dan00
"The reason they chose to hack instead of watch movies goes to the heart of
what really separates people with self-control from people without it."

I hate stuff like this. When people say that their being is the only right
thing.

~~~
ryanwaggoner
I think you're missing the context. He's referencing his friend who says he
wants to accomplish X, but does Y instead. It's not that Y < X; it's that the
guy truly does want to do X but just can't help doing Y instead.

~~~
dan00
He uses his friends problem exemplary, but by saying 'they', he generalizes
it.

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devonrt
It's really, really hard to take an article seriously when it takes an
"impulsive" five year old and has him committing statutory rape as an adult.
Kind of an unnecessary example, no?

~~~
tomjen3
Not really - it is a real world action with real consequences.

He could have gotten her pregnant too, but that wouldn't have been as good an
example, since that would require the women to take risks too.

~~~
jordan0day
Actually your example seems like a better one. Most men would read his example
about rape and say (truthfully) "I would never do that!"

Neglecting to use a condom in the heat of the moment? I imagine the line
becomes grayer. It's not longer this abhorrent thing where the consequences
are binary (did or did not rape), but instead more of a risk/reward thing
where judging the consequences requires more fuzzy logic.

~~~
nandemo
Interesting. Are you saying that "statutory rape" is generally considered
abhorrent in the US?

I'm not from US, and in my country the roughly equivalent (but different)
crime is called "seduction". It's not nearly as bad as "rape", either legally
or socially. A rapist might get lynched in prison, while nobody besides a 17yo
girl's parents would care about a "seducer" nowadays. Moral issues aside,
unprotected sex with an adult would be much riskier than protected sex with a
minor.

Would most American young men really say that they would never have consensual
sex with a minor? Even if the guy is 18 and the girl is 17? My understanding
is that most guys wouldn't do it in situations like a one-night-stand, when
the perceived risky of being caught/charged is higher. But if the girl is
their girlfriend I believe most guys would do it.

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daniel-cussen
"One thing I’ve noticed is how rarely you see very ambitious people who are
overweight. It’s probably because of metacognition."

Caesar also feared thin men, because they could overcome the smaller
temptations that small-time power brought with it, focussing instead on going
big-time.

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Tichy
Somehow I tend to lean towards a softer interpretation towards people: so I
would assume there might be other factors at play, for example with the guy
who watches Netflix instead of writing his apps. Perhaps he subconsciously
doesn't believe in his success? In general, I think the only way to cure an
addiction is to replace it with something better. That is why often alcoholics
and drug addicts seem to recover by becoming ultra religious ("better" being
subjective, but it fills the void). Instead of looking down on people without
self-control, why not try to help them find something better or motivate them?

Of course with a lot of self-control maybe the app guy would just sit down and
write the apps. But can self-control then not also backfire? At other times HN
is flooded with articles about failing early enough or being prepared to
change course. Self control would prevent that and therefore make you less
adaptive (at least one possibility).

As for the kids with Marshmallows experiment, yeah, I've heard about it, the
guy also wrote a bestseller called "Emotional Intelligence" (notice he is good
at marketing). But how many kids did he test? Has it been repeated? And maybe
it was other factors - perhaps the kids not taking the Marshmallows were more
intelligent and had already learned that Marshmallows are bad for you. Perhaps
kids from families with higher socioeconomic status feed less candy to their
kids, so the kids craving for candy less were already from better backgrounds.
(Not saying that is the explanation, just saying there could be lots of
factors at play besides self-control. Personally, I never liked Marshmallows,
not even as a kid...).

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knowledgesale
The question here is not whether we should look down on people with certain
traits but to find out what makes a person effective.

It is not about judgment, it is about studying the interaction between human
traits and the society.

As for the critique of the experiment, proper screening and appropriate
statistical analysis allow to rule out these factors.

Just read the research paper for yourself
[http://www.columbia.edu/cu/psychology/metcalfe/Old%2520Lab%2...](http://www.columbia.edu/cu/psychology/metcalfe/Old%2520Lab%2520Webpage/PDFs/Metcalfe%2520Mischel%25201999.pdf&pli=1)

~~~
Tichy
Link doesn't work, unfortunately. Hope to get around to reading it eventually
:-/

I actually assume it was a good study, but still, what is self-control? It
seems a rather fuzzy thing, if measured by marshmallow craving. It might be
too simplistic to reduce things to it.

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NumberFiveAlive
'I’m a driven person and I surround myself with other driven people.
Generally, when I land on an exciting new idea, I can’t wait to jump on it'.

I read this as 'Self-control is great because I have great self-control.' I'm
a big believer in the thesis of this article (to an extent, anyway: I'll take
someone with high intelligence and low self-control over an extreme example of
someone with low intelligence but high self-control), but he completely turned
me off in the third paragraph. And then again when he likened a fifth grader
wanting a treat _right now_ with an adult committing statutory rape.

~~~
Tichy
Isn't "can't wait to jump on an exciting new idea" the opposite of self
control?

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deno
Is there something actually based on fact and data that anyone can recommend
about the subject of self-control (and it's impact on being successful)?

~~~
sp332
TED talk video (fun, aimed at a general audience)
[http://www.ted.com/talks/lang/eng/joachim_de_posada_says_don...](http://www.ted.com/talks/lang/eng/joachim_de_posada_says_don_t_eat_the_marshmallow_yet.html)

Jonah Lehrer writeup for the New Yorker (6 pages)
[http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2009/05/18/090518fa_fact_...](http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2009/05/18/090518fa_fact_lehrer)

The actual research (direct link to PDF)
[http://www.columbia.edu/cu/psychology/metcalfe/Old%20Lab%20W...](http://www.columbia.edu/cu/psychology/metcalfe/Old%20Lab%20Webpage/PDFs/Metcalfe%20Mischel%201999.pdf)

~~~
naner
Those three are all the same piece of research.

~~~
sp332
Yes, sorry if that wasn't clear.

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rysmit
Metaconginiton or as the author calls it, "thinking about thinking" sounds
like intelligence to me.

Self-control is mentally controlling yourself. It takes an active, thinking,
controlled mind to put off what is self-indulgence now for one's own greater
good. This may be subjective but I find that most intelligent people are self-
controlled by definition.

~~~
dhimes
_Metaconginiton or as the author calls it, "thinking about thinking" sounds
like intelligence to me_

It's usually used to refer to something more akin to self-awareness than raw
horsepower. Noticing that you didn't understand a paragraph that you just read
is something that some people have to learn later in life than others, for
example. It may have to do with intelligence, but also probably motivation and
cognitive skills.

Edit: fixed typo I may have -> It may have

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tyng
The article is a bit too one-sided while not taking in other factors that play
in life.

Still, I agree that Self-Control is absolutely important when it comes down to
pursuing your dreams. The benefit (or destruction if you don't self-control)
comes at a average-over-time basis

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dnautics
"I know a guy who constantly talks about wanting to start his own business.
He’d like to build it around his very own iPhone app. He’s a talented Flash
designer who resolved several years ago to teach himself how to develop apps.
About 6 months ago, he bought himself a book on how to do that. He hasn’t
cracked it open yet. Instead, he spends his weeknights watching Netflix."

Yeah but the guy who does build the empire around a flash app has to have the
impulsiveness to actually do that, too. It's equally possible to be gridlocked
by fear of failure masquerading as "impulse control".

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kennedywm
For some people, doing something productive isn't an act of self-control--it's
just what you prefer doing. I can't sit and enjoy a movie when I'm excited
about a project I'm working on; I'll just sit there thinking about how much I
want to get back to work.

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wccrawford
I think the article makes a lot of conclusions that aren't based on facts,
just assumptions.

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sandykory
The article makes a false distinction--'raw intelligence' is not necessary
different that 'self-control.' Like emotional intelligence, 'self-control' is
a necessary but not sufficient part of any useful meaning of 'intelligence.'

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hungh3
No amount of efforts or will can ever be more enduring then our love of the
work. Then, even if we are willing to use the wills, instead of love, to
control our behaviour, life is miserable.

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deadbeat
Self-control is pretty strongly correlated with high intelligence.

~~~
aik
All depends on your definition of high intelligence. I know some very
intelligent (rapid cognition, knowledgeable, very capable of thought...)
people, who completely lack any form of self-control and are essentially bums.

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jlgbecom
I would add that genius is more defined by an extreme tenacity than
intelligence.

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c00p3r
Yet another guy just discovered a Marshmallow study? ^_^
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deferred_gratification>

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parbo
What's the deal with all the porn references? Seems like the author has some
issues.

~~~
aik
Perhaps he should have used more objective references. I believe the author
does not find much worth in porn. Your subjective opinion is clearly
different. How is having "issues" related with his viewpoint?

~~~
parbo
I meant that the numerous references to porn detracts from the article, and
instead makes you think about what the author thinks of porn. I didn't mean
"haha, the author is a recovering porn addict".

