
Show HN: A Github for writers? - petervandijck
http://www.penflip.com/
======
dylandrop
When I hear "writer", I think of a screenwriter, novelist, or poet of some
sort. "Github for writers" is misleading, since I think the people who would
use this wouldn't be writers, but rather technical people who collaboratively
write things. This is cool, given its audience is people who write blogs or
possibly research papers.

I think you showed this (or the premise of this idea) on HN a month ago or so.
It still has the same problems as it does then... IF your core audience is
still writers as defined above.

1) Writers write in revisions, and don't like to have every word they change
critiqued by their editors/producers/etc.

2) Writers don't like markdown -- they want WYSIWYG. This feature alone makes
me feel like your goal was to make this tool for technical people.

3) I think a lot of meaningless changes would get jumbled up in the mix if
you're writing something long. If you're writing a novel, it would be nice to
go between different versions of the novel, but perhaps a bit too much if you
had a commit for every punctuation mark.

This being said, I'm sort of interested what you think your audience should
be. I think it could be a good tool given the right circumstances.

~~~
antjanus
Novel writer here (unpublished but I've written several books, writing my next
one in a month).

The site looks intriguing but yeah, I agree with your points:

1\. I do write in revisions. Smaller changes don't matter as much when it
comes to the end product. However, what I WOULD love to see is a previous copy
on the right of the screen and a text editor on the left. I tend to do my
revisions that way so that I can look at what I wrote, copy/paste what's fine,
and rewrite what needs to be rewritten while still looking at the original.
2\. After trying out a million "distraction free" writers, I am still on MS
Office. It's really worth it for me. I can't stand writing in Libre, or OO, or
Ohm, or Monkey (whatever it's called). Scrivener may be the only exception but
I usually just port my stuff there. 3\. Exactly

Here are the things I do like:

1\. chapter by chapter separation of concerns. I like that. Even if it's in
the form of text files, it's great. 2\. one-click publishing. I really
appreciate that. It's a pain to go from Word to a properly formatted PUB file.
Having a tool that does this for you from the get-go is awesome. I've spent
way too much time reformatting Word to be accepted by Smashwords in the past.
3\. Comments. I enjoy this as well. If I had someone to help me out with my
book, this would be a great feature. If I was to hire someone to help me out
with editing and critiquing my work, I'd use this tool. Definitely would.

With that said, I would abuse the hell out of this for blog writing.

~~~
e12e
> 2\. After trying out a million "distraction free" writers, I am still on MS
> Office. It's really worth it for me. I can't stand writing in Libre, or OO,
> or Ohm, or Monkey (whatever it's called). Scrivener may be the only
> exception but I usually just port my stuff there.

Just curious: Have you tried AbiWord? Arguably it shares a lot of the good
parts of its interface with MS word -- If you have I'd love to hear what you
(dis)like about it (and how Word is better or just as bad). No affiliation
with AbiWord - just curious.

Personally I write too little at present, but when I do write, I write in vim,
either in plain text or in some variation of ReStructuredText. I very much
prefer to keep writing and formatting separate, starting with an outline of
headings+notes, and expanding section by section. I've never attempted
anything beyond essay-length, though.

------
brm
Yeah, I might be late to the party here, but... I signed up for penflip two
and a half hours ago and have received eight emails from you guys since then.
This is not cool. I don't care if they're notifications. Auto-on is a terrible
default from a user experience stand point in this case.

 __Edit: Also, I can 't easily find where to turn them on or off, and if its
available I'm having difficulty figuring out how to delete my account.

Edit 2: Done being blinded email rage, I located the notifications control
panel which is relatively obvious (so facepalm for me there), however, having
searched the site it does not appear as easy to delete my account altogether.

~~~
guynamedloren
Just a quick update - I've disabled all email notifications from the alpha
project (the source of these notifications). No more emails should be sent
out. Again, very sorry about that. Rough day.

~~~
baby
quick reply to feedback, that's what we appreciate, thank you for this!

Just my 2 cents:

* Why can't I use "," in my project name? My book is titled "Je sais ce que je fais, du moins je pense" but I had to replace the , by a .

* Fiction? My book is not really a fiction book, more of an autobiography.

* Edit to add/create files? I know you want to make it like git/svn but this is counter-intuitive (or maybe I missed something here?)

also. I might not be the best writer, but this is how I work : I have one
folder for each big "chapters" that has several chapter_x.txt. And each
chapter has a chapter_x_notes.txt with notes about the chapter I'm writing.

I wrote a small javascript/php client that reads my txt and display them like
Emacs/Sublime Text 2 buffers and display my work on the left and the
appropriate notes on the right. Because I really think that it's important to
have a guideline at all moment when you're writing something.

For example :

    
    
        + china
        
            - chapter 1 - first steps.txt
            
            - chapter 1 - notes.txt
        
            - chapter 2 - first meal.txt
    
            - chapter 2 - notes.txt
        
        + france
        
            - chapter 3 - paris.txt
        
            - chapter 3 - notes.txt
        

etc...

* my connection crashed during a save, when I got my connection back the save wouldn't finish. I guess there is a timeout but then it should cancel the save and let me continue it when the connection comes back. I hope I make sense.

* for something as important as a book, I'm really scared doing that on an external website. I normally write on ST3 locally + dropbox for backup. I know I can download the thing on .epub,.pdf,.html etc... but I want to be able to download it in a way I can import it back to your application in case something goes wrong or I want to clone the project.

* I can't delete a file I'm currently editing

* When a filename is too long the bin icon when you hover it in the list of files on the left is overlaping with the name

* in my resolution, which is quite small, it doesn't scale very well, especially when I display the file tree on the left.

* Really need folders on this file tree.

* When editing a project, the only way to go back to its index page is to click on its name in the file tree. Not very clear. A breadcrumbs system would be nicer to tell you at least what project you're editing.

* Also I know this might be too much and too much of a fancy feature, but importing a folder (like the example three I gave you) would be very nice. I have to copy/paste all my .txt now

------
guynamedloren
Hi everyone, I'm the guy building Penflip. Apologies for the load of emails
and rough edges - Penflip actually still in alpha, and is not quite ready for
the primetime.

------
adrianh
Reminds me of Draft, which seems much more fully featured (and is made by
frequent YC contributor Nate Kontny):
[https://draftin.com/](https://draftin.com/)

~~~
davidw
For that matter, it's not too different from LeanPub.com

------
kmfrk
The interface is incredibly well-done. Great job on that.

I would ask to see more information before providing my sign-up information,
though. Speaking of which, it seems obvious to just let users sign in with
their GitHub information.

------
csense
Other than the scrollbar, there's no indication on the front page that you can
scroll down to see more.

Requiring signup is a huge barrier to entry for me. I don't want to give a
website my email until I have a clear sense of what their value proposition
is. In other words, the more I can do without signing up, the more likely I am
to see the value and eventually become a registered user, paying customer, and
recommend the service to others.

With Github, for example, I lurked for months before joining. Usually browsing
and cloning public projets.

Letting your users see real projects that people are working on (even ones
that have voluntarily become public) is a plus.

Also, I think that, since you're targeting a market that's not already
familiar with Git, your marketing should focus specifically on the value that
Git-enabled workflows can provide. Explain how a reader can send you a pull
request with a grammar fix, how you can easily merge changes from multiple
contributors, how you can attribute each line to a specific person.

~~~
guynamedloren
I'll update the landing page to link to public projects, which, by the way,
are indeed accessible without signup:

[http://www.penflip.com/discover](http://www.penflip.com/discover)

> _Also, I think that, since you 're targeting a market that's not already
> familiar with Git, your marketing should focus specifically on the value
> that Git-enabled workflows can provide._

This is a bit of a challenge, as there's a balance between tech and non-tech.
It's possible that these explanations could be overwhelmingly confusing for a
large number of (potential) users. I think a video would be the best way to
explain concepts like this, which I intend to have eventually.

Thanks for the feedback!

------
Brajeshwar
My humble suggestions to any service/product you introduce, even to beta
testers, is to quote a price or an inkling of the upcoming pricing slabs. If
there will be a free version with limited features, do mention that. For
instance, I know Trello and Evernote will always have a free version which is
good enough to a large extend and they promised that. I'm on Evernote Premium
out of love though I still do not need the premium features. So is the same
with Trello (few people were generous enough to sign-up through my links).

Without a price that I can calculate for continued future usage, I'm very
reluctant to "get used-to" a particular app/service/product.

These days, if I like a product/service/site, and cannot find a price tag, I
email the founders asking for an idea. Many do reply but it gets irritating
that I have to do this quite often.

I do understand the marketing temptations and tricks of getting more users
with "free trials". However, if your price in future is not affordable, then
I'm going to be sad, irritated and may even hate you. Please don't let your
customers hate you. It should be pretty OK to avoid customers from the
beginning, who may not be ready to pay the price you quote than to promise
them something and charge them another in future.

~~~
guynamedloren
Thanks for bringing this up. I completely agree. Penflip is actually still in
alpha, and wasn't quite ready to be shared with a larger audience. I was
planning on posting HN with beta, which would include pricing.

Anyway, just so you know: the pricing model will be similar to github: free
for open source / public projects, small monthly fee for private projects ($5+
a month depending on number of projects).

~~~
reissbaker
Unsolicited advice, but: I'm not sure that's the best business model for a
tool aimed at writers. Github's model succeeded because there was already a
thriving community of people contributing open-source work; with writing, most
FOSS licenses don't make sense for the way that the content is consumed, and
there isn't much of a pre-existing community built up around it that you can
lean on. Most importantly, though, and unlike OSS, even people who publish in
the public domain generally don't write drafts in it: they release articles
and stories when they're finished.

I'd try to structure your business model more along the lines of behavior that
people already have. Some ideas off the top of my head:

1\. Notebooks. All writers are intimately familiar with the concept, and
having separate notebooks is a useful organizational tool. First notebook's
free, and you can pay for the rest.

2\. Blogging. You can have one private working document at a time, and
unlimited number of public blog posts. The private document is important — no
one wants to publish half-finished. Want more working documents? Pay up.

3\. Collaborators. You can collaborate with one person for free; if you want
multiple collaborators, you have to pay.

I'm sure you can come up with others. My point just is: structure your company
around your customers.

~~~
guynamedloren
Good advice, thank you. I appreciate it.

On your first two points, this is not too far off from what GitHub does (and
what I plan on doing) - the main difference is the nomenclature. You call them
notebooks/blogs/documents, I call them projects, GitHub calls them
repositories. The model is the same, though. FWIW, I'm calling them 'projects'
because it's confusing to have multiple names for essentially the same thing.

The "first one's free" concept is interesting, and something I'm considering.
However, I'm not entirely sure I agree with 'no one wants to publish half-
finished' \- Leanpub ([http://www.leanpub.com](http://www.leanpub.com)) is
built on this concept, and seems to be successful. Another argument is for
open source and community-driven projects [1], which could be considered to be
always in an unfinished state.

[1] [https://github.com/HoTT/book](https://github.com/HoTT/book)

------
possibilistic
Whoa guys, you send way too many emails!

In the last hour I've received about 15 emails, and they're still coming in.
Please don't subscribe me to every event by default!

~~~
guynamedloren
Sorry about this. Still in alpha, explained here:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6619284](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6619284)

------
cpr
Looks good at first blush, but please fix the embedded hyphens in the top
screen shot. (Must have been a quick copy'n'paste from public domain text.)

~~~
guynamedloren
Good catch :) You are correct!

------
thatthatis
Im not sure you've necessarily cracked the code, but I applaud the effort to
get sane version control and collaboration into other aspects of work.

Compared to the elegant and bullet proof code versioning with git, adding
v_2013_1026_1300 to the end of file names in powerpoint, word, and excel just
feels barbaric.

------
petervandijck
Not my project, but I'm using it. One guy working on it. I think it's a
wonderful, wonderful concept.

------
eoinmurray92
Anyone know what they are using for document conversion, turning the document
into a PDF for example?

~~~
guynamedloren
Pandoc with custom templates.

------
tehwalrus
Just in time for Novel Writing Month![1] I will be penning my 50,000 words in
this (both on the web interface, and locally in Mou[2].)

[1] [http://nanowrimo.org](http://nanowrimo.org)

[2] [http://mouapp.com/](http://mouapp.com/)

------
booruguru
How am I supposed to create new pages for a "book" project? Also, when I
created a new document, it took me a while to understand that I was supposed
to edit/delete the text in the current document to begin writing. (In that
instance, I was also looking for a "new document" button.)

I don't want to do writing using a web interface. I think a desktop client
would make a service like this far more attractive. However, I think it would
be a bit of a hard sell because of the slight learning curve. I think you need
to demonstrate Penflip's value proposition by providing actual use cases for
such an app.

Otherwise, your app looks very slick and quite promising.

~~~
guynamedloren
There will be a desktop app eventually!

If you're comfortable with git, you can clone the project and work on your own
computer, like you would with any git repository. If you have the GitHub app
on your computer, you can use that for Penflip projects as well:

[http://www.penflip.com/Penflip/help/blob/master/WorkingOffli...](http://www.penflip.com/Penflip/help/blob/master/WorkingOffline.txt/preview)

------
cphoover
If you use wordpress my friend is working on a very cool plugin called post-
forking: [http://wordpress.org/plugins/post-
forking/](http://wordpress.org/plugins/post-forking/)

This post brought it to mind.

------
benwerd
Looks neat.

My favorite app in this genre is Poetica, which is in private beta but a real
joy to use: [https://poetica.com/](https://poetica.com/)

------
rpedela
Do writers (non-techies) use and/or want to use Markdown?

~~~
co_pl_te
It depends. I like using Markdown for writing. Being a 'writer' does not
preclude one from being a 'techie'.

~~~
Dewie
I think he only meant to ask about writers who are _not_ techies.

~~~
rpedela
yes

------
GotNothing
Been watching something very similar now geared to social writing, but less
technical.

[https://editorially.com/](https://editorially.com/)

------
Blahah
It looks a lot like the prose.io interface. I like prose.io, but the huge
problem with the browser editor is that there's no on-going autosave, so for
example, accidental backspaces can wipe out all the work you've done since the
last commit. Haven't checked out penflip yet, but I hope it doesn't make the
same mistake.

~~~
hadem
Couldn't developers use the browser's local database for auto-saving? Or save
drafts back to the server every so often via Ajax calls?

~~~
saraid216
The issue isn't "is it technically possible" but rather "did the app developer
realize it's sort of important and actually implement it".

------
may
I'm a writer and I'm not sure why I need this.

If I'm doing something collaboratively, I'll either use a DVCS or meet with
people in person. Or hack something together via Google Docs. (OK, I'm
starting to see how this could be useful).

That said, I use Draft on a daily basis and it's awesome.

------
cheez
Don't use developer language.

~~~
csense
This is very vague. What specific instances of "developer language" do you
see? Better yet, what are the alternative ways of explaining?

------
abhididdigi
A suggestion to Author: I signed-up yesterday. The UI and the way it works is
okay, with one exception. I get 8 mails from loren@penflip.com. 8 e-mails?
Seriously? Reduce the count, and send emails if someone subscribed to
them(explicitly)

------
karteek
Looks neat. I was casually checking html source and found that there is some
HAML code visible as comments
([http://i.imgur.com/TNDRHNy.png](http://i.imgur.com/TNDRHNy.png)).

------
the1
As a writer for digital media, I use MS Word. Need to write without being
online. And I send my file to editorial team to merge (with images and other
writers work) and convert to web page format.

------
co_pl_te
Love this. Actually working on something similar ('GitHub for storytellers')
as my first Rails project. I have to learn a lot more to get mine even
presentable, though.

------
oneeyedpigeon
There's a footer, but with 'infinite scroll', it's impossible to access.
(Other than that, looks great so far - just a quick bit of constructive
criticism!)

------
philip1209
I write in LaTeX and version control with Github. Pretty efficient,
considering that losing one's work is always the biggest fear. My commit
messages are my word count.

------
franklovecchio
I want to see [http://fountain.io/](http://fountain.io/) built into these
editing tools. Screenplays in markdown!

------
btbuildem
Can't try it out without signing up, what gives? At least have a short video
that showcases the MVP..

------
ghosttie
How is this different from Google Docs?

~~~
Heliosmaster
Markdown, for example

~~~
jfromaniello
I've a pet project [http://mdocs.io](http://mdocs.io) aims to be closer to
gdocs for markdown. We use operational transformations for realtime editing
and we allow connecting Google Apps domains so you can share to everyone in
company and so on. The Interface needs more work . it is open source.

------
iancarroll
This seems to be based on Gitlab. I'm sorry if it's not bit something tells me
it is.

------
spindritf
Very cool. Is there something like this for collaboration on reST
(reStructuredText) documents?

------
vinitool76
Really like it, great work. Would love if it follows a pricing models similar
to github.

------
jeremia
Would you mind sharing what technologies (languages, frameworks, etc.) for
this?

------
bedspax
[http://20lin.es/](http://20lin.es/)

------
jasonkolb
Why not just keep your files in git? Use a git GUI if the command line is
intimidating to writers. That way you don't have to create a brand new writing
tool. I keep scrivener files in git, it works great.

~~~
co_pl_te
Git is certainly capable of this, but I don't think that makes a service like
Penflip that focuses specifically on collaborative writing superfluous.

I like to code and I like to write, but I'd be much more likely to put a Rails
app on Github than, say, a short story on which I'd like to collaborate. It's
not that Github can't be used as an effective tool for collaborative writing,
but rather, that it isn't really the place for it.

I have a lot better chance of social interaction around code on Github versus
writing because the primary social object on Github is code.

There is no question that good writing exists on Github and that it shines for
particular forms of writing, but the dearth of writers to coders there seems
to signify that a service like Penflip has a market that could be better
served.

~~~
jasonkolb
That's a good point, I hadn't considered the collaboration aspect. Out of
curiosity, what kind of projects require this? I suppose a book with multiple
authors is one good example, are there others?

~~~
aaren
A research paper with multiple authors - possibly in very different locations.

Research often involves code as well, which would make github more suitable.

------
feronull
It's so slow for me, hn effect ?

------
vincentperes
interesting! any idea on where I could find writers that would help on my
story?

------
dyoder
make sure your login and signup are via HTTPS before you go much further.

------
nav
This is awesome.

------
caiob
another one?

