

Sexist Reactions to an Ad Spark #ILookLikeAnEngineer Campaign - user_235711
http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2015/08/04/429362127/sexist-reactions-to-an-ad-spark-ilooklikeanengineer-campaign

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alexc05
Thank God!

It feels like weeks since the last gender in tech hashtag has trended. I've
been waiting desperately for something to steal the internet's vitriol and
outrage from this whole Cecil the lion thing.

OK - yes - I'm being entirely facetious there. This might take off it might
not, but I am personally tired of the seemingly endless new thing to be
outraged by.

Tim Hunt, Gamergate, Doglegate, Meritocracy Carpet, Beach Body Ready, Cancel
Colbert ... then if you start googling around for "gender hashtags" you'll see
articles extoling the "social change hashtags" of the year - but if you look
at them [http://www.forbes.com/sites/karenhua/2015/06/03/tweeting-
to-...](http://www.forbes.com/sites/karenhua/2015/06/03/tweeting-to-empower-
feminist-hashtags-2015/) ...
[http://www.forbes.com/sites/tomwatson/2014/12/29/top-
social-...](http://www.forbes.com/sites/tomwatson/2014/12/29/top-social-
change-hashtags-of-2014-focused-on-race-and-gender/)

What has actually changed? How is the world a better place?

I'm honestly appalled that this poor young woman had to suffer shitty troll
comments in the internet, but a hashtag isn't going to actually _do_ anything.

Do we really think those idiots are the same ones reading the social justice
pages of the huffington post?

Holding on to outrage or fanning the flames of outrage are NOT the right way
to effect positive social change.

Shame and fear may be effective methods of effecting change, but they're dark
and hurtful. Love, patience, forgiveness and kindness is better for everyone.

[http://www.futurity.org/shame-942522/](http://www.futurity.org/shame-942522/)
[https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/creative-
synthesis/2015...](https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/creative-
synthesis/201501/shame-and-motivation-change)
[https://www.jbs.cam.ac.uk/fileadmin/user_upload/research/wor...](https://www.jbs.cam.ac.uk/fileadmin/user_upload/research/workingpapers/wp0807.pdf)

There's a reason this stuff is in the 2000 year old wisdom of Jesus (turn the
other cheek) and the 2500 year old wisdom of Buddha.

Love is the answer.

~~~
jrochkind1
Wait, her response, with the hashtag, was to promote the fact that there are
lots of engineers who don't look like many people's stereotype of an engineer,
no?

What about that involves 'shame and fear'?

Why does it bug you?

~~~
dvg25
Maybe because Isis Anchalee Wenger is not an engineer, despite what her
inflated job title ("platform engineer") and 3-months of web development
bootcamp may tell her to the contrary. That doesn't mean she doesn't face real
sexism -- just one comment about her appearance is one too many. The more
interesting question, however, is what does a software engineer actually look
like? Does a 3-month web bootcamp give you the rights?

~~~
jrochkind1
I don't know anything about her, and didn't really care enough to research her
personally, and still don't really. Why did you? What is it that bugs you?
Cause I still say there is no "shame and fear" involved in this 'campaign'.

I think anyone who has a job writing code can legitimately call themselves a
software engineer, it's just a synonym for programmer these days, and if you
program, you're a programmer.

(I play accordion, not all that well. Once a teacher of mine, who is an
incredible musician, overheard me answering the question "Do you play
accordion?" with "Well, I'm learning," and he said to me something like "Don't
say you don't play the accordion, of course you play the accordion, I've seen
you playing it, you play the accordion, you're a musician. If you pick up the
accordion and play something on it, you are an accordionist, which is
something to be proud of. Never deny it." This coming from a guy who is
probably one of the top accordionists on the planet, better then I'll ever be
(because he's been dedicating himself to it for decades since he was a child)
-- was a lesson for me in confidence and generosity to oneself and others vs
being excessively self-critical).

There are enough software engineers that I think it's clear that the answer to
"what does a software engineer actually look like" is: Just like everyone
else, they look like everyone.

~~~
dvg25
Why do you assume I researched Ms. Wenger? Why does that bother you? FYI,
someone who was a classmate of hers mentioned it in the comments to some
article on her. >>I think anyone who has a job writing code can legitimately
call themselves a software engineer, it's just a synonym for programmer these
days, and if you program, you're a programmer. That's exactly it: what you
think. Anyway, it's not clear because people do ask (this time I just did my
research...even the US Bureau of Labor and Statistics differentiate).

Btw, I'm not talking about appearance when I ask what a software engineer
looks like, I'm talking about whether three-month experience from a web
development academy makes a software engineer. That bothers me.

~~~
jrochkind1
What do you think (which of course will be "just what you think", as you say)
are the qualifications for calling oneself a software engineer?

What is it that bothers you about people who have jobs coding calling
themselves "software engineers" when you don't think they qualify?

I think a survey of job postings would confirm that even entry-level job
postings, for which someone with 3 months of training might qualify, are
routinely advertised as 'software engineer' positions. So it may not be "just
what I think".

If you're reading comments from classmates on some article about her, you're
clearly doing more research than I am. I've read nothing but the OP, and don't
have any particular interest in learning more about her, honestly. But I like
the hashtag.

~~~
dvg25
>>What do you think (which of course will be "just what you think", as you
say) are the qualifications for calling oneself a software engineer? Are you
asking me to find out what I think, or are you just asking in order to prove a
point? It's unclear, as you've mentioned yet again how you have no particular
interest in Ms. Wenger... >> What is it that bothers you about people who have
jobs coding calling themselves "software engineers" when you don't think they
qualify? I can't imagine that three months of experience makes anyone
particularly qualified for anything but to learn that they like something,
which is not necessarily bad. But why three months? Why not at least a year,
like the Udacity Android developer programmer?

>>I think a survey of job postings would confirm that even entry-level job
postings, for which someone with 3 months of training might qualify, are
routinely advertised as 'software engineer' positions. So it may not be "just
what I think". Have you done a survey of entry-level postings? Given that
reading comments in an article already constitute "research" to you, so I'm
guess the answer is no. Thus it is indeed "just what you think" (And perhaps
what some HR personnel think). It's just unfortunate that somewhere in the
hiring process, people with a 3-month bootcamp experience can get hired but
older software engineers/developers can't. Seems that the valley can't keep
female CS/EECS/SEng grads in tech and can't hire older developers after age
30. But web bootcamps can certainly pop up and try to sell the myth that one
can become a fully-contributing software engineer after three months.

Your only interesting point was the sharing of the accordion story and
generosity of spirit. Thank you for that exchange.

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henry_vonfire
The worst thing is that "looking like an engineer" is a pejorative
description. People expect some kind of nerdy appearance from an engineer no
matter what gender the person is.

~~~
mycroft-holmes
Exactly. I've been told I don't look like an engineer but it doesn't matter
because I'm a man.

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deadmik3
As if companies never hire attractive models to feature in their campaigns

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totierne2
I think the hashtag is cool. Just waiting for lots of male engineers in drag
to subvert it. Seriously though it's cheap and I really do not see a downside
except woman may be encouraged to become engineers and be surprised by long
hours impinging on family time (long hours (if a little self inflicted)
impinge on my family time). (I will not declare whether I am male of female.
My bio: Engineering degree/programmer).

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s_kilk
Something tells me it's going to be a long, slow process stamping out sexism
in tech. But this is a good step forward.

Edit: I know remarking on downvotes is frowned-upon here, but I just can't
help it. Good to see HNs resident mysogynists are keeping on top of their
game!

~~~
jazzyk
You were downvoted (not by me) for not providing anything meaningful to the
discussion, not because of your bias.

Stop being a victim, don't blame other people every time you screw up (as we
all do from time to time)

