
GoPro shows its vulnerability after horrific Q3 earnings - tomjacu48
https://techcrunch.com/2016/11/03/gopro-trading-halted-as-company-misses-revenue-expectations-by-23/
======
Fr0styMatt88
So, I'm starting a VR project that's going to need 180-degree (or thereabouts)
stereoscopic video. Ready to spend money on cameras and actually get started.

"Cool! This should be straightforward, everyone uses GoPro cameras for that,
so a I'll need to buy two GoPros!" was my immediate thought. All ready to give
GoPro my money.

Oh, but they dropped stereo genlock after the 3+..... wait what?!?! VR
filmmaking is one of those things that people are heavily experimenting with.
Why would they purposely drop this segment when it's only just starting to
pick up? This is a segment not filled by their ultra-expensive 360 rigs.

So off to eBay I go. Hmmmm.... do I need a 3, a 3+, a 3+ Black? A 2? Is there
a 2 Pro or something? Do I need the 3D kit or the dual-Hero kit? Does it even
still work with the latest firmware?

It's so confusing that even some people on eBay honestly weren't sure what
they were selling.

There are a few things that could fill this niche, all right now frustratingly
in 'pre-order' or 'might be out the end of this year' state. Yet GoPro had
this and they just.... dropped it.

Too many different models in the past, just far too confusing.

For the record, I've gone with used GoPro Hero 2s from eBay. Just waiting on
the sync cable now. Will see how that works out :)

~~~
kitanata
If you're doing any sort of software development requiring cameras GoPro is
definitely NOT the way to go. We use Point Grey for our camera equipment. Not
only are the cameras very high quality, but their API is a developer's dream.

Unlike GoPro's overreaching application process, $100, or $1k fee, and an
extremely limited API/features, these guys practically shove as much
documentation and libraries down your throat that they can. I fucking love
Point Grey cameras.

[https://www.ptgrey.com/blackfly-usb3-vision-
cameras](https://www.ptgrey.com/blackfly-usb3-vision-cameras)

~~~
jimcsharp
Thank you for this. GoPros have been challenging and we're looking for
alternatives for the next camera rig we build. One nice thing about GoPro
cameras that I think I would miss with these is their built in WiFi. It's
perfect for ad-hoc field laptop scenarios.

------
mikestew
I try not to generalize personal experience to a company's stock price. But in
GoPro's case I'm picturing a bunch of folks like me who bought one, and then
swore to never again buy anything with GoPro's name on it. And those people
tell their friends who are considering an "action camera". So you end up with
a segment of customers from whom you'll never extract another dime, plus all
of the people who might have bought one had they not spoken with current
customers. (I'd recommend the Garmin offerings if you're in the market.)

I won't reiterate my complaints with my GoPro camera because I've bitched
enough already on HN. The summary is that it is probably one of the most
disappointing, and frankly, aggravating pieces of tech I've purchased in the
last decade. It's not a matter of "cheap Chinese knock-offs" being almost good
enough. It's that what the Chinese are copying wasn't all that good to begin
with, so it's not terribly hard to match on quality and then undercut
massively on price.

~~~
barrkel
GoPro is a poor shape to use with motorbikes; helmet mounts in particular are
ludicrous. Any particular reason you didn't consider Drift? Fairly happy with
mine, using it as a helmet-cam.

~~~
mikestew
_Any particular reason you didn 't consider Drift?_

Because, as I've outlined elsewhere in this thread, I'm an idiot who thought
the name brand was a safe bet and didn't do enough research.

That said, most of the time it's mounted to the front crash bar or a
saddlebag. Not a big fan of protrusions on my helmet.

~~~
barrkel
Drift is mounted on the edge of my helmet, opposite my Cardo Scala Rider
intercom system on the other side. There's not much way for it to hit the road
first without my shoulder going AWOL, and if it did, it would snap off pretty
rapidly.

A key advantage of the Drift and similar systems is the camera sensor can be
rotated with respect to the camera body. So it doesn't matter that it's at an
angle, close to your shoulder: the picture is still upright owing to one
twisting the lens.

------
niftich
They have a drone?

Oh, they do, but it doesn't ship until the end of November. The Engadget
review (dated today) [1] presents a good look at the device and how it
compares to the competition -- different trade-offs. Nicer if you're in the
GoPro ecosystem, but the competition is a better flyer.

So perhaps the market for rugged cameras is fairly saturated by their own
products, and the aerial market has partially sailed while they were working
on theirs?

[1] [https://www.engadget.com/2016/11/03/gopro-karma-
review/](https://www.engadget.com/2016/11/03/gopro-karma-review/)

~~~
giarc
I think GoPro suffers from two problems.

1\. Many people buy these camera's that never use them, or use them a few
times but realize editing videos takes longer than they hoped it would. So
after a while of non use, they sell the camera.

2\. They built a good product, one that lasts and is therefore good for the
used market. People are comfortable buying a used GoPro because they know it's
rugged and well built.

So GoPro's have a good resale value and therefore many people that might
normally buy a new one, instead turn to the used market which doesn't help
GoPro at all.

~~~
odbol_
If only they made crappier products that break more often, at least then their
stock shareholders would think it's a good company. This exemplifies
everything that's wrong with capitalism and planned obsolescence.

~~~
WalterBright
Leica cameras have always been quality products and that didn't hurt them at
all. A Leica will last forever.

~~~
gregshap
Leica is privately owned, which does make it easier to choose less growth. As
a public company you need to grow or return enough steady dividends to make it
worthwhile for people to keep their money invested in you.

------
NumberCruncher
Company misses revenue expectations or revenue expectation misses reality?
Hmm...

~~~
jkestner
For better or worse, it's partially on the company to manage expectations.
Amazon does a great job of this, which is why it can get away with minimal
profit most quarters.

~~~
totalZero
Agreed. Managing expectations into earnings is a large part of a CFO,
treasurer, or other investor relations officer's job.

I do admit that it's necessarily hard for GoPro to do this, because they're a
high-tech, discretionary consumer product -- the competitor landscape is
always shifting and advancing, and a ton of factors affect consumer spending
choices. GoPro is not a networking company with ten big and slow-moving
clients. Something as simple as gas price hikes (less discretionary budget),
or a new wearable product released by a different company (drains from "cool
new toy" budget), could affect their sales.

Stocks like GPRO, FIT, etc are really hard to analyze, for these reasons and
others.

Then again, I guess you could say that makes the task of managing expectations
all the more important.

------
1024core
What else would you expect? The CEO took his money when the stock hit ~100
[1]. He didn't even wait for the lockup period to expire. The suckers left
holding the stock have ridden it to the bottom, expecting it to takeoff any
moment now... but if the CEO thought it would reach ~100, wouldn't he have
waited?

[1] [http://money.cnn.com/2014/10/02/investing/gopro-charity-
shar...](http://money.cnn.com/2014/10/02/investing/gopro-charity-shares/)

------
sschueller
Go pro is very good at marketing them selves however the cameras are not much
better if not worse than many way cheaper competitors.

The drone would be a big hit if Dji didn't just blow the roof of with their
incredible mavic pro that came on the market this week. It is by far the best
consumer drone available and smaller than the go pro.

~~~
bendauphinee
I've seen both the Mavic and the Karma, and I have to say they hit different
use cases.

The GoPro is for when you want a drone that can carry your camera that you can
also detach and use with their stabilized handle, which you can then take the
GoPro out of completely and use on it's own.

The Mavic is for people who want a smaller drone.

Both are good tech, and I plan on getting both of them within the next year,
but the GoPro one is going to be my first of the two.

~~~
VilleSalonen
The concept of GoPro Karma is intriguing but based on some early reviews it is
a horrible drone. For example see this review by iPhonedo:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-xmqthgCvxk](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-xmqthgCvxk)

Based on this video the price, stability, amount of features and just about
everything is worse than my old DJI Phantom 3 Standard.

I wished GoPro Karma would be good but based on reviews I'm not impressed and
probably end up going with Mavic Pro even though I just bought GoPro Hero 5.

------
GavinMcG
Who halts the trading? Is it a normal circumstance before earnings reports are
released, or does it have something to do with the magnitude of the miss?

~~~
topbanana
There are circuit breakers operated by the exchange in case of significant and
sustained orderbook imbalance (ie a stock is being hammered)

These are today's on NASDAQ
[http://www.nasdaqtrader.com/trader.aspx?id=TradeHalts](http://www.nasdaqtrader.com/trader.aspx?id=TradeHalts)

~~~
conistonwater
That page lists the reasons as _T1_ (halt pending release of material news),
and _T2_ (halt while news is being disseminated). So then it's not a circuit
breaker ( _T5_?)?

I wonder how exactly that works. What kind of news does it apply to? Is it
common? Can a company ask for a trading halt on its own before it releases bad
results?

~~~
maruamx
My understanding was that the markets have a duty to provide equal access to
information that would determine your decisions.

This is one of the reasons why companies often release their quarterly results
after market close. It allows all relevant parties to be able to access the
latest information before selling resumes.

If this wasn't the case, then users with the fastest connections would be able
to process, and react to the data before others in the market had a chance to
do so as well.

~~~
narkee
Wait, isn't that the entire point of high-frequency trading and their low-
latency access to markets?

~~~
harmegido
1) HFT is more than just US equities. Many exchanges are open 23 hours a day.

2) Many HFT firms do not specialize in 'news-reading'. That is, they will sit
out periods when an expected announcement is coming. You can observe this by
looking at the liquidity of a product just prior to an expected relevant news
release - there will be very few orders.

3) There are more events than just news events that require speed.

------
topbanana
Perhaps the chinese clones are denting sales? I own two GoPros but I
understand the clones are very nearly as good, for a much lower price.

~~~
tonyplee
Agree, one can easily study the clone's features, price and customer reviews
here:

[https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_ss_c_1_12?url=search-
alia...](https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_ss_c_1_12?url=search-
alias%3Daps&field-
keywords=sport+hd+camera&sprefix=sport+hd+cam%2Caps%2C583&crid=25PNMHE1JA0HR)

They use the same SOC, camera sensors. There are tons of HD Videos comparison
reviews on Youtube.

~~~
joshu
I am told the GoPro is very similar to the ambarella reference board. Are you
saying these are similar? Because that would be very useful.

~~~
tonyplee
I believe they used the same chip.

Anyway, I got one of the clone after study the youtube video of the output for
$50+ to put on my kid's model airplane. It works great. He crashed the
airplane a lot. With only $50, I feel better.

------
BinaryIdiot
I interviewed there a few months back and I gotta say I'm not surprised.
Granted all of the people I met were really smart and seemed to know what they
were doing but at the same time the product direction was...confusing to say
the least. They also want to get more services and software going to monetize
but it wasn't clear how they were going to monetize any of it just that their
software needs to improve and be usable by other cameras not just there's.

It sounded like a cool place to work but I was a bit worried about their next
2-3 years.

------
gk1
I almost bought the new Session just a few weeks ago. After seeing these
comments, I'm glad I didn't.

The reason I didn't buy is I realized how much they are screwing people by
charging crazy prices for essential add-ons. $xx for a basic mount (a piece of
plastic), $xx for a bolt to connect to the mount, $xx for a case, $xx for a
charging kit, and so on and so on. You thought you were buying a $400 gadget
but suddenly your cart total is 2x that.

~~~
Florin_Andrei
A Xiaomi Yi can do 1080p60 for $90 or less - and works fine. It's about the
size of a GoPro. I use it as a helmet cam on my motorcycle.

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UAYgVvbXkLU](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UAYgVvbXkLU)

I made my own helmet mount for the Yi:

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k3w-twe4seQ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k3w-twe4seQ)

A Mobius ActionCam can do 1080p30 or 720p60 at $75 and it's even smaller -
about the size of a matchbox, or keychain dongle. I use it on mini-
quadcopters; my son put it on a model rocket. It still works. :)

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tbh2O4_UWT0](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tbh2O4_UWT0)

~~~
Nexxxeh
Seconding a Yi. Especially with the newer firmwares. (It'll do 2k video
capture that upscale reasonably to 4k supposedly, but I use 1080p).

The app is a bit clunky, but the camera is spectacular value compared to the
GoPros near the price bracket.

------
adamnemecek
They went from 86.97 on Oct 4, 2014 to 11.94 now. Isn't looking too good.

~~~
mikestew
I remember having an alert set for if GPRO ever bounced up from (let's say)
$45. It hit that number and never bounced, it just kept on going down. I
consider my GoPro to be my worst tech purchase in the last ten years, but as a
mostly technical trader I'll occasionally (though rarely) buy a stock despite
my feelings about their offerings. But GPRO demonstrates that, once again, I
should stick to companies that sell things I like.

~~~
jkestner
Yeah, I bought some as well. Can't win them all. I believed their vision of
being a lifestyle company that could weather the whims of the tech market.
That may be so, but looks like they never expanded their market, and their
user experience didn't evolve to suit consumers.

OTOH, if I bought what I really liked, I would've bought HTC and stagnated.
The Re action camera is an excellent value and gets the experience right.

------
pja
Tom Scott was very positive about the new GoPro Hero5 fwiw:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VTx9lYpfWSg](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VTx9lYpfWSg)

~~~
vacri
Tom Scott's "Things You Might Not Know" series is extraordinary. In a sea of
internet tidbits and factbites that you've seen umpteen times before, his
videos are almost always new things I've never heard about before; certainly
less than 10% would be my guesstimate of things I knew of beforehand.
Definitely worth checking out.

------
dorianm
Still have mine somewhere, just too annoying to charge and doesn't last long,
then I need to use their app to get the files etc etc. Just too much hassle
for a simple use case.

(Why didn't they use a standard charging cable...)

------
spyspy
I'm almost positive threads about GoPro are stalked by Xaomi employees. Almost
every comment is a plug.

~~~
kogepathic
Or Xiaomi products are simply better than GoPro's.

I was in the market for a 4K action camera and ended up buying the Yi 4K
because the GoPro model only offered interpolated 4K, while the Yi offers full
30FPS 4K.

I won't say the Yi is perfect. The Xiaomi app stopped connecting to the camera
after an update (and hasn't connected successfully since), and early firmwares
had issues with 4K recording randomly stopping.

But they've since fixed nearly all the stability issues with subsequent
firmware releases.

Overall the camera is loads better than anything that GoPro had on the market
at the time, and the camera only cost me $250 with accessories (waterproof
case, spare battery), plus $70 to DHL for customs and duties.

I'm not a Xiaomi shill, I'm just very pleased with the product I bought.

------
foolfoolz
the GoPro camera is the best camera I own. I don't need a DSLR, I'm not a
serious photographer, I'll use my phone for regular pictures. but I really
enjoy having a high quality camera for surfing, snowboarding, scuba diving,
and slow mo

but it's so well made, and it's always in the case (so I can put it on a
mount) that ot still Looks feels brand new. I bet it will last me 5 more years

~~~
neves
I agree. It just fail at low light. But now I travel just with the GoPro and
my phone. Nothing heavy anymore.

------
jpeg_hero
commodity hardware -> build a brand...

find out maybe works with soda water (red bull) but ppl don't take the $100
overprice hit on commodity camera just for brand feeling...

how many wingsuit enthusiast are there anyways ?!?

~~~
ryhamz
Speaking of Red Bull, how has someone not come out with a cheaper alternative
in the US.

Not talking about other energy drinks. Korea has Hot 6ix, which is way cheaper
and goes for the Red Bull taste.

------
mtw
Dnd future doesn't look good. Their star product is not as advanced as the new
DJI mavic pro. The new gopro 5 don't have new amazing features (5k, raw
recording, much better dynamic range etc.), it's mostly a small bump from the
4 series.

Unless you are a total GoPro fan, there's no reason you would buy the newly
released products.

~~~
odbol_
Does the Mavic pro have a detachable camera stabilizer? That's the reason I
would buy GoPro's drone.

~~~
mtw
The Mavic Pro doesn't have one.

You are right, a gimbal is a very smart addition. Put it on the backpack for
skiiing or on a bike to record smooth rides.

My biggest problem however is the lack of "intelligent" flying with GoPro's
drone. Most people overestimate their flying skills. It's very easy to have a
collision, loose your done. It's also difficult to do subject tracking. Many
find themselves with a broken drone after just a week of use. On the other
hand, the Mavic Pro has their most advanced visualisation technology + sensors
to make your job easy.

If you are confident with the GoPro drone, I would recommend purchasing it
from a store with a liberal return/exchange policy. Try it for one week and
record a few videos. And then compare with the mavic pro

------
djsumdog
Why is not selling enough a bad thing? You make a good product, everyone loves
it and don't need another one? This is why I haven't replaced my original
Pebble either. I remember Intel hitting this same type of market/stockholder
crunch.

Hello: not selling more stuff is A GOOD THING! It means your last generation
was really good (well, if people are still using it and not buying another
one). It means you can lower factory worker numbers and pay them more.

So a company that makes shitty products you have to refresh is going to do
_better_. This cuts to the core of the entire economy of growth and economy of
scale problems with our current economy. There needs to be a way to reward
companies for making good products that last forever instead of them having to
pump out crappy products every two years to stay afloat. (I'm looking at you
Pebble Time Round!)

~~~
epistasis
If you're going to ask that, you also need to ask why needing to halt trading
is a bad thing. "Good" and "bad" are value judgements that change in different
contexts.

A large component of stock price is the expectation of profits for share
holders in the future. If those expectations change, and the stock price
plummets, it's not necessarily good or bad in the sense of a product being
good or bad, or a company being good or bad.

~~~
nzjrs
Well put. If someone can't find happiness in gopro being a successful 100mil
company instead of a 1bil company, then we have become unmoored somewhere

------
xor1
Can anyone recommend a good GoPro model (or similar product) to pick up for
use on a helmet? Specifically while cycling. I once had a Contour, but lost
it, and never replaced it.

~~~
shash7
The new gopro session is looking good. For a higher quality one, get the hero
silver.

If you're looking for mounts, stick the standard mount on your helmet or use a
'wraparound' mount on the handlebars. (Get one of
these)[[https://www.amazon.com/Black-Common-Outdoor-Sports-
Session/d...](https://www.amazon.com/Black-Common-Outdoor-Sports-
Session/dp/B00PLBXUMS/ref=sr_1_5?s=photo&ie=UTF8&qid=1478214431&sr=1-5&keywords=gopro)]
You get a ton of accessories for cheap.

~~~
EA
I second the Session recommendation. There's one button to press and it "just
works". The session is lightweight too, so it will create less torque on your
head/neck than other cameras.

------
jliptzin
I bought a GoPro a couple years ago because I was considering buying the stock
as it was about to be listed. Took it on a ski trip. It was one of the worst
pieces of consumer electronics I've ever used. Just atrocious. It seems they
took every wrong turn possible whenever faced with any design decision. I
avoided the stock but should have shorted it.

------
deepnotderp
Problem is that the people who want gopros already have them and their drone
got destroyed by the dji mavic.

------
trungonnews
GoPro needs additional applications to their camera besides being an action
cam. How about adding home security, or baby monitor capability? Otherwise the
GoPro camera will sit in the closet for 364 days of the year. What a waste.

------
jotjotzzz8
They have one niche product that is very expensive. It does not offer anything
new or extraordinary to the experience other than what it should do: take
video. Customers can get a product that is similar for 70% less price (from
China _cough_ ). It's no surprise.

~~~
pedalpete
Is there a valid reason to describe "from China cough"?

I believe GoPro cameras are manufactured in China.

~~~
colmvp
Yeah I don't get the derision. On my desk are multiple electronic items
(laptop, speakers, mobile phone, mouse, keyboard, external hard drive) that
are all either made in or assembled in China.

------
gigatexal
Meh, I am buying some shares of FitBit and GoPro tomorrow as either could get
acquired or bust, but at > 25% discounts i'll take that risk as the potential
upside is too good to miss. Purely speculation on my part

~~~
neves
And their new product looks great. For the first time I lust to upgrade my
Hero 3+.

~~~
gigatexal
everyone has a hobby -- i trade stocks and have done pretty good for myself.
They both picked up a few percentage points from their after-earnings lows.
Either they get bought, go kaput, or soar again a-la AMD in their most recent
restructuring (selling HQ and leasing it back, paying down debt,etc.); either
way I win: I win because this is fun, and I win if the shares rise.

~~~
stouset
Something tells me you aren't going to feel like you've won when you're out
thousands of dollars.

It's not hard to make money in a bull market. Getting out before it turns sour
is the trick.

------
proee
The New Iphone 7 with iP67 water-resistance rating will negatively affect
GoPro sales. People will likely bring their iPhone to the beach/lake if they
trust it doesn't get damaged by an accidental water splash.

~~~
brandon272
Water resistance seems like only one of many advantages a GoPro has. I would
never consider doing with what my phone what I've seen many people do when
they are tossing around a GoPro.

~~~
proee
This it true for extreme situations, but I do believe with the new iPhone,
people we be less likely to use a GoPro, if even just 10-20% less it does
affect the bottom line.

------
kylehotchkiss
It's too bad they didn't capitalize on the opportunities to partner with
Facebook for live video. And their API is a joke. If they would open it up,
developers might make something that would drive sales.

------
amyjess
Huh, the title in the URL is less sensationalized than the actual headline:
"gopro-trading-halted-as-company-misses-revenue-expectations-by-23"

------
cromulent
Anyone have any experience with the Nikon KeyMission action cameras?

------
ktamiola
Crama drone was a massive flop. DJI have simply smeared them. The latest
camera releases are not innovative at up. They are desperately trying to catch
up!

------
bitmapbrother
It's gotta be tough going from ,,, to ,,

------
mangeletti
This coming Monday's low, in my humble opinion, not investment advice, is the
best time to buy GPRO.

