

Why OpenPhoto will defeat Picasa and Flickr - rohshall
http://benjaminkerensa.com/2012/05/03/why-openphoto-will-defeat-picasa-and-flickr

======
hcarvalhoalves
"You decide where to store photos"

That is most likely the reason this, as many other "open" alternatives, won't
defeat proprietary solutions.

A normal human being won't bother setting up an S3 account and integrating
with this service when they can just pay Flickr/Picasa and forget.

~~~
greggman
Agreed. Flickr is $25 for unlimited storage. That's much better than S3 AFAIK.
Especially in this day and age when I go out with my DSLR and come back with
4gig of new images.

~~~
bad_user
It may say unlimited, but only a fool would believe it. How many photos do you
have uploaded anyway?

Also, good luck dowloading your whole photo collection from Flickr.

~~~
ceejayoz
> Also, good luck dowloading your whole photo collection from Flickr.

I periodically fire up an EC2 instance and do just that via the API.

> It may say unlimited, but only a fool would believe it. How many photos do
> you have uploaded anyway?

Unlike your average "unlimited" shared web hosting, I've yet to hear of a
single person booted off Flickr for uploading too much (legit) stuff. Storage
is cheap, and the folks paying $25 to upload a photo a month likely subsidize
the really heavy users a little.

~~~
fakeer
>> _I periodically fire up an EC2 instance_

That was point oc put forward: _A normal human being won't bother setting up
an S3 account_.

~~~
pretoriusB
No, but for them there are tons of exporter apps for Flickr they can run from
THEIR computer.

~~~
jmathai
In theory, yes. But there are a plentiful of Flickr users who grudgingly renew
their Flickr account because they don't see any alternatives that includes
porting their photos.

The solutions exist. But no one knows about them. I believe this is a big
problem and we're baking data portability right into the service.

If Flickr had a big button that said, export all of your photos then I imagine
people would.

And by export I don't mean download zip file. I mean move where your photos
are stored without losing the benefits of having them "up in the cloud".

------
snogglethorpe
Hmmm, never heard of it.

I think to defeat Picasa and Flickr, first, it has to actually be known
about...

The reasons given in the article are well, nice enough features, but they're
absolutely not enough to guarantee success or domination... not even close.
Major success is of course extremely fickle; it's not just major features that
are important but all sorts of incidental stuff. In many cases, much of this
comes down to luck as much as anything else (e.g. FB's big advantage was being
in the right place, at the right time, and not screwing up that advantage
completely), and is notoriously hard to predict.

So... good luck, I guess, but, well ... meh.

~~~
lnanek2
Same here, never heard of them. Don't really see anything in the article that
could somehow get their name to the huge masses of people who know Facebook,
and maybe Flickr, and don't really hunt around for advanced options. Instagram
at least had the public feeds and following and some sort of way for it to
spread. You can't win this by building a better photo tool alone.

------
jmathai
I'm the founder of the project. Benjamin is one of our community managers and
I'm glad he wrote this.

The value of OpenPhoto differs for many people. Benjamin stated why he uses it
and even volunteers his time to help make it successful.

What I'm focusing on is making it easy and useful for people to regain control
and peace of mind that all their photos are safe, in one spot and enjoyable.

We are doing this a few different ways.

* As the article points out, letting users (optionally) choose whee their photos are stores. I say optionally because we provide storage for those who don't know what that means or don't want to.

* Allow people to import photos from Flickr, Instagram and Facebook. More coming soon.

* Enable folks to change their mind at any time with their choice of storage service. If they choose us and want to change or find a different service that is cheaper or suits them better, we make the migration seamless.

We're an open source project but as you'll see we are very consumer focused.
It's why we have apps on the app stores and offer a "hosted version".

Happy to answer questions.

~~~
berberous
How the hell do I delete my account and/or photos? There seems to be no way to
deactivate my account, or delete my photos.

Also, it took like 6 hours before it pulled any photos from Facebook.

No offense, but all in all, this was a really frustrating and unhappy user
experience for me.

~~~
jmathai
Drop an email to support@openphoto.me.

Sorry it took 6 hours to import your photos from Facebook. We didn't
anticipate having so many people initiate imports so we throttled ourselves a
bit much (on top of 3rd party API limits).

Besides the delay in imports was there anything else you found frustrating?

------
brianchu
The problem with things like this is that it's doubtful whether this product
will be ten times better than the alternatives, which is how much better it
needs to be if it wants to displace the entrenched players, which already
enjoy some lock-in through 3rd party integration. Simply offering a cheaper
and open source alternative or a free alternative that requires somebody to
link it up with Dropbox doesn't cut it. There has to be a killer feature, in
my opinion.

Your average user will initially shop around for a service, stick with the one
they find, and stop then simply stop considering alternatives unless the
alternative is simply amazing or all their friends are using it.

~~~
jmathai
Completely agree. We are enabling users to import from multiple sources. This
seems to be the feature that resonates most with people - to get all their
photos into one location.

------
1gor

      If you have been living in a cave for the past few months...
    

I want to stop reading right here.

~~~
ghshephard
Yeah, I had the same reaction - I have about 20 different camera apps on my
iPhone, and all the typical flickr, pbase, shutterfly, picassa, photostream
accounts that shutterbugs tend to pick up.

I read dpreview/techmeme/theverge daily, and I'd never heard of "OpenPhoto"
before. I presume I'm the target audience for this new service, so it's
probably not a great idea to start off a posting by simultaneously insulting
me and losing credibility.

------
codenerdz
Just when I wanted to learn more about the project, it appears to be down :(

<http://theopenphotoproject.org/>

~~~
ghshephard
I tried to go add an account via the iOS app - was told, "Couldn't Execute
Requests".

I guess on the flip side, it makes me feel better about PhotoStream uptime.
:-)

------
darklajid
So, I was curious and tried installing it locally for a test drive.

The installation was painful (issues with imagemagick, for one). I installed
from git, according to their installation guide [1].

The result is broken (for me/in general) on several levels. Let's start with
the best one:

The configuration file that you generate during the intial setup of the
application (from a UI. It's not my fault, I didn't miss anything, this file
is totally autogenerated) has a different idea of the configuration parameter
name for the password salt. Result? The admin account ends up in the db
unsalted (or .. whatever their configuration returns for 'value not
configured'), because it searches for 'passwordSalt' in the config and
previously just dropped a 'secret' in there.

Why did I even notice that? Because I was hoping to use that thing with my
wife. Two accounts, both allowed to upload. Seems to be a concept that this
project doesn't support: For all I can tell only _one_ user is allowed to
upload pictures. You can have multiple (local) users, but for that you need to
read the code and edit the config file directly. Yeah - and figure out the
salt bug above.

Uploading failed with a division by zero error when I used ImageMagick as
backend.

The gallery sometimes _didn't show the image, just the tags and the general UI
around_ (in both Chrome and FF). Quite a bad thing, since that is the only
usecase.

It took me ages to understand how to delete images. The only way I found is
hidden in some 'batch manipulation' dialog.

I could go on. It feels unfinished and rough. It doesn't solve my basic needs.
Replacing Picasa and Flickr would be great, but this app is from away from it.

1:
[http://theopenphotoproject.org/documentation/guide/Installat...](http://theopenphotoproject.org/documentation/guide/InstallationUbuntuApache)

------
adamnemecek
Even though it would be cool, I think that the situation is similar to
Diaspora/Facebook, i.e. end users won't run their own servers and it would not
be profitable for third parties to run them either.

~~~
ChuckMcM
This comment tugs at me.

 _"end users won't run their own servers"_

The reason it tugs at me is because I can't tell if it is because they don't
_want_ to, or that they _can't_.

~~~
adamnemecek
I mean can you imagine say a high schooler having to maintain a server running
their facebook profile?

~~~
ChuckMcM
Yes, I can imagine a high schooler running a server that not only maintains
their facebook profile but provides a chat room and runs a home grown mmo ...
what I _can't_ imagine is their grandmother running a server. She needs/wants
something that is easily farmed out to minimally trained technicians.

------
nextstep
I'd bet against this happening... nobody knows about this. Also, hasn't
twitter, shared photo streams and Instagram/Facebook already "defeated" simple
image hosting platforms?

~~~
jmathai
I'm betting against that. Photos, unlike many other types of content, are not
ephemeral. If you don't believe they are then ask anyone who takes photos of
their kids.

It is often difficult to defend my thoughts with younger more technical
groups. If all people care about really is sharing photos in the moment then
I'm wrong and OpenPhoto will be a failure. I'm bullish.

~~~
pretoriusB
> _I'm betting against that. Photos, unlike many other types of content, are
> not ephemeral. If you don't believe they are then ask anyone who takes
> photos of their kids._

Only each and every hosting solution one might pick for OpenPhoto (S3,
DropBox, their hosting company, whatever) is just as ephemeral as Flickr and
Picassa. A lot of them even more so (I've seen tons of hosting companies
close, Google can shut down Picassa like it has closed down lots of it's own
products, Dropbox could get bought by the big players and close down, etc).

> _It is often difficult to defend my thoughts with younger more technical
> groups._

And yet, those are the only part of the population that might be interested in
a self-hosted, open source, photo hosting.

~~~
jmathai
> Only each and every hosting solution one might pick for OpenPhoto (S3,
> DropBox, their hosting company, whatever) is just as ephemeral as Flickr and
> Picassa.

That's the benefit of de-coupling the data storage from the application logic.
If you are using Dropbox and they announce they're shutting down you can
seamlessly migrate your photos to another provider and experience no
disruption in service.

The way it's done today is you have to export your photos from one service to
another.

------
DigitalSea
OpenPhoto who? I had never heard of OpenPhoto until now, so I guess that kind
of weakens the point of this article by about 50% straight up. Flickr in my
opinion while having failed to stay relevant in a world of Instagrams and
Facebook, it's still the best place to store your photos and from what I hear
Marissa is focusing on Flickr quite heavily recently.

Free might seem better than $25 per month, but $25 per month for actual
unlimited photo storage is something not even Dropbox or S3 can compete with.
Not to mention Flickr has no barrier to entry, you upload your photos and
don't have to worry about paying for a third party service like S3.

It's nice to dream that an open source Mozilla project can steal some of
Flickr's thunder, but it isn't going to be happening any time soon.

~~~
kawera
Flickr Pro costs $25 per year not per month.

------
laureny
> Currently Google’s Picasa and Yahoo’s Flickr lack the same openness

What lack of openness exactly? I can go to Picasa at any time and download a
fully original picture (the very same picture I uploaded to Google's servers).
I also have an API I can use to access Picasa and Flickr.

> With all of the above reasons in mind and all the features that are being
> added its going to be hard to find any reason not to use OpenPhoto.

Yeah, Linux has been using the same tired argument for a couple of decades
now. The bottom line is that "it's open and free" is not enough to convince
millions of users to use your product.

> Note: I’m currently a member of the OpenPhoto Team

Ah... ok, I wish I had read this first and I wouldn't even have bothered
posting this.

~~~
jmathai
> What lack of openness exactly?

I believe the openness the author is talking about isn't merely the ability to
get a photo back out. It's the ability to have your photos be portable. That
you have the ability to store the photos wherever you'd like. And the ability
for anyone else to clone and modify the application. And your ability to
seamlessly start using that without having to download and upload your photos
all over again.

Much of it is philosophical but if Flickr had embraced this model it wouldn't
have stagnated for the last 5 years.

> Yeah, Linux ...

I know. We're trying to move away from open and free. In 4 weeks the name
won't even have "Open" in it.

> Ah... ok, I wish I had read this first and I wouldn't even have bothered
> posting this.

Don't let this discredit the entire article. Even if you disagree with it
there's some very forward thinking approaches to how to store and handle user
data. The web would be a better place if applications in the future at least
adopted parts of it.

Disclaimer: I started this thing.

------
aufreak3
Here is a hypothesis to examine - given the first computing revolution
involved people determining how to use their computers by purchasing and
installing software with the needed functionality, is a second such revolution
where completely controllable personal storage and compute resources reside in
the cloud, with individuals deciding how to put them to use by installing
various server sofware components?

I'm personally sick of lockins and wouldnt mind a "desktop like" interface to
installing and using software on servers. There were some startups that seemed
to start down this path. Know of any that's moved further along in this
direction?

------
magnet_ball
This article has an asterisk at the beginning which leads to a footnote "Note:
I’m currently a member of the OpenPhoto Team". This should be at the
beginning, it sets the articles tone. I'd take it seriously if it was an
outside source but being written by a developer on the project, for me it's a
cute introduction to the software and it doesn't tell me whether this software
is actually good.

What I do learn from this is that it would probably be a good solution for
hack-it-yourself enthusiasts from the Linux community who always look for the
open source solution.

~~~
jmathai
Because that's the perspective of the author.

For those not interested in installing themselves we offer a hosted solution
at <https://openphoto.me>

------
SideburnsOfDoom
>"OpenPhoto is Free Open Source Software that anyone can download at no cost
and run on their own servers"

So, back to the 1990s? Not that it's a bad thing, but aren't php scripts and
wordpress plugins to do this kind of thing old hat and _pre-date_ flickr,
picasa, skydrive et all?

A well-designed 2013-era take on the problem may be interesting to see, but
the mere existence of software to store, present and manage photos on your
website is as mundane as can be. So, what's new here?

~~~
Gravityloss
No.

Openphoto works like this (among other ways):

You can get [name].openphoto.me account and link it with your dropbox. You
upload photos to your openphoto account by dragging them into a window - but
the files actually go to folders on your dropbox account. Hence - full
control, backup ability and everything. Anybody (you, the FBI, a hacker) can
delete your openphoto account tomorrow but you don't lose a single photo.

~~~
SideburnsOfDoom
But, on the other hand anyone (you, the FBI, a hacker) can delete your dropbox
account tomorrow and you'll lose all your photos. This just moves the problem.

~~~
jmathai
Moves the problem in such a way that if you stop trusting Dropbox you can
easily move your photos to another location without any disruption of the
service.

------
dokem
I hope I don't come off as cynical, but there's no way this project will ever
'defeat' Picasa or Flickr. It could very well end up being a successful
project, but it will never be on top. Also drop the whole 'Open' and 'Free'
thing when it comes to naming. No one outside of the dev community cares about
or even acknowledges the existence of FOSS. This project sounds great, it just
doesn't seem tailored or marketed towards a mass userbase.

~~~
jmathai
The name of the hosted version is changing in a couple weeks. There will
always be multiple players in the photo space but Facebook proved me wrong
with that in regards to sharing.

Here's a graphic that depicts just how dominant Facebook is.
[http://www.pocket-lint.com/news/42150/facebook-digital-
photo...](http://www.pocket-lint.com/news/42150/facebook-digital-photo-
dominance-infographic)

------
laureny
> If you have been living in a cave for the past few months then you would
> have missed the success of OpenPhoto

I don't live in a cave, and while OpenPhoto is promising, it's quite a bit
premature to call it "a success", especially in the presence of competitors
boasting millions of users such as Picasa and Flickr.

Let's talk again once OpenPhoto reaches a million users.

~~~
jmathai
It's a bit boring to make this statement once it has a few million users :).

I agree with you on it being premature though :). And it's not exactly the
goal of the project.

Disclaimer: I started OpenPhoto.

------
Gravityloss
I've used it since summer now. It's mostly ok, but it sucks for actually
viewing any photos as they are really really small and most of the screen
estate is just navigation stuff.

I hope at some point in the future it will be useful for its intended purpose:
viewing photos.

Seems to be down at the moment as well...

~~~
jmathai
We're keenly aware of the UI issues and have been addressing them in the
upcoming release which is about 4 weeks out. Hopefully it'll be much more
useful once we release it.

~~~
Gravityloss
Thanks jmathai, that's awesome!

------
bhadra
Can the android and the iPhone app be used for sharing photos through email or
with with Facebook, Twitter and Google+?

~~~
jmathai
Email, Facebook and Twitter. Not yet Google Plus.

~~~
bhadra
Do you have any short-term plans for Google Plus?

~~~
jmathai
Not at the moment. But it's something that's easy enough that it'll just make
it into a release before we officially plan it.

------
esalman
Why every project whose name starts with "Open-" is to be considered a future
success?

