

The dark side of an MIT brain - andrewljohnson
http://tech.mit.edu/V131/N34/normandin.html

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zacharyvoase
Gosh, that was judgemental. I suppose it was intended to be an opinion piece,
but it took prostitution to be wrong _a priori_ , with no discussion or
justification of this premise. Bandying about words like ‘exploitation’ is,
frankly, cheap. The phrase “exploiting young women and enticing men to have
extramarital affairs” reveals several of the author’s strong inner biases (to
wit, that women are weak and men are evil). If anything, I'd say the author
himself demonstrates ‘the dark side of an MIT brain’.

On a more general note, where are the articles discussing the long-term effect
of prostitution on psychology? For example, do students who sell sex at
college go on to be less or more successful than their cohort? Do they form
longer-lasting or more volatile relationships later in life? Those are the
articles I’d like to read.

~~~
pyre
I'd also like to see the correlation between prior sexual abuse and selling
sex at college. I would assume that those who were abused may be more likely
to do so, but by how much? Is the group of students that do this 99% abused
(1% not) or is it closer to something like 60/40?

~~~
zacharyvoase
Just out of interest, why would you make that assumption?

~~~
loup-vaillant
Because others did:

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prostitution#Consent>

 _Studies also show that most women in prostitution, including those working
for escort services, have been sexually abused as children.[link]_

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DennisP
"When a young woman is in desperate need of money and a wealthy man comes
along and uses that vulnerability to get sex, that's the definition of
exploitation."

Seems like you could also say: "When a man is in desperate need of sex and a
young woman comes along and uses that vulnerability to get money, that's the
definition of exploitation."

~~~
pyre
Lack of money is a much more severe situation than lack of sex. Lack of money
comes with the possibility of poverty, while lack of sex just means that you
will have to wait longer for sex.

~~~
DennisP
The article also says "To test this proposition, make college free. If college
girls were no longer desperately in need of money, I would be more than
willing to bet that SeekingArrangement.com would cease to be highly
profitable."

Seems to me he's saying that the women aren't doing it to survive, they're
doing it to get a college education. I would submit that the drive for sex is
a much more primal urge, going back a half billion years or so, than the drive
for a college education.

~~~
pavel_lishin
I doubt that the women who sign up to be sugar babies are doing it to get
laid.

~~~
learc83
That's not what he was saying at all. Read the last few comments again.

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gacba
_Just as his website was MIT-driven by encouraging Mr. Wade’s entrepreneurial
spirit and putting him in those awkward social situations, it was also MIT-
driven by twisting his view of reality into a purely utilitarian model,
completely devoid of any morals. As SeekingArrangement.com says, “Who is to
say what is right and wrong?” Many would see this as dangerous, but to Mr.
Wade, it is purely a case of the output being worth the input._

It really rubs me wrong that the OP believes that MIT is responsible for
certain actions that are really up to the individual.

\- You are the only one responsible for cultivating a moral compass. A college
can require an ethics course, but whether you absorb any of it or not will be
entirely on you.

\- MIT didn't fail him any more than any other institution. It's not MIT's job
to give him or anyone social skills. Again, see point #1, it's on you to do
something about it.

I get the point of the article and the general depravity of the site he
started, but seriously, is MIT responsible for this or simply collateral
damage in this article's bomb crater? What if Ted Bundy, or Osama Bin Laden
graduated from MIT? Is it MIT's fault that they are sociopathic too?

~~~
esrauch
I completely agree that it is not reasonable to say that any action taken by
an individual is the responsibility of an institution or community, but
conversely I don't think it is fair to say that individuals actions should
never reflect poorly on the community that they are a part of.

> You are the only one responsible for cultivating a moral compass.

I don't really understand this point; you are the only one responsible for
cultivating Physics 1 knowledge as well. If there were high profile instances
of people who had recently taken Physics 1 at MIT and clearly did not absorb
it at all, then that still can reflect poorly on MIT.

Clearly there are going to be outliers, but it doesn't even sound like you are
arguing that this guy is an outlier, but rather that MIT shouldn't strive to
cultivate ethical behavior and any amount of unethical behavior by MIT alum
shouldn't reflect badly on them as an institution.

I'm actually living in Cambridge now, and (based on completely anecdotal
evidence of conversations with students) it appears to me that MIT focuses far
less on being a responsible citizen or an ethical engineer than most other
universities that I have had experience with. At many schools, ethics is not
only a required course, but something that is not uncommonly discussed in the
context of any random CS course. One of my interns from MIT was specifically
surprised to hear that I had talked about ethical considerations related to
being employed in a CS related field in my undergrad.

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bitops
It occurred to me as I read the article that SeekingArrangement.com actually
could not have asked for better publicity than this article. Sure, there will
be a round of condemnation and so forth, but there will also be a great many
thinking "hey, that's just what I need".

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samlevine
> To test this proposition, make college free.

In this case you'd still be taking money from rich men and women and giving
them to the people going to college, only without the services rendered.

It's like asking whether I'd still do IT if I were paid to hang around playing
video games. Obviously I'd rather study, tinker or engage in leisure rather
than do my job. This doesn't answer the question of whether the exploitation
is right or wrong.

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DasIch
The fact that woman feel compelled to go to such lengths is a problem, the
fact that this site (in part) exploits that may be a problem morally speaking
but what are those women supposed to do instead? To which length would they
feel compelled to go if they didn't have this option? It appears to be that
this site provides at least some sort of security. I don't think anyone wants
to see them "work the street" either.

I think the real problem is at an entirely different level and begs an
entirely different set of questions:

\- Why do these women feel compelled to do this?

\- Do they have alternatives and if so why don't they use them?

\- If they have usable alternatives how do we educate them about those?

\- If they don't have alternatives should they be given financial help and by
whom?

EDIT: How do I make this a proper list?

~~~
mst
Why do you assume they "feel compelled" to do this? I mean, it seems highly
likely in my opinion that some percentage (possibly/probably the vast
majority) are doing so as a last or near-to-last resort, but "highly likely in
my opinion" doesn't strike me as sufficient grounds to write up your questions
with what seems like an implicit assumption that the percentage is as close to
100 as to make no useful difference.

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delinka
"...exploiting college women by taking advantage of their financial need..."

Let's replace 'college women' with 'software engineers.' Where's the
difference? You need money, you have a skill set, you trade your skills for
money. Is that not exploitation?

How about at the "lower" end of the wage pool? Are employers not "exploiting"
teenagers with "financial need" by paying the teens minimum wage?

Lest you reply "but ANYONE can have sex," allow me to suggest that you might
not have the ability to offer me sex in a manner for which I am willing to
pay. I don't get this taboo against paying for sex.

EDIT: I am aware that a thread on this topic appeared while I was typing. It
happens.

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guard-of-terra
"To test this proposition, make college free. If college girls were no longer
desperately in need of money... When a young woman is in desperate need of
money and a wealthy man comes along and uses that vulnerability to get sex,
that’s the definition of exploitation."

I would say that the poor blamed site is less responsible for the exploitation
happening, and the mre responsible is higher education being paid and pretty
expensive in USA.

The site in question is a mere adaptation against a problem. And the problem
have a lot more grave consequences than some victimless prostitution. Like
having no future.

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Vivtek
Wow. This is an astonishingly hypocritical screed coming from a college that
costs $55,000 a year.

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reader5000
I think the basic argument the writer was failing to make is that it seems a
bit of a waste of an MIT education for a guy to make a prostitution website.

More disturbing was the site's creator trying to align his site with MIT's
admittedly idealistic "mission statement" with the obtusely reductionistic
argument that a business wouldnt have customers if it didnt "create value".

It would have been less disturbing if the creator was just like "yeah it's
kind of fucked up and sure some of the girls are going to regret doing it but
hey it makes me a lot of money and thats enough for me."

Maybe the more interesting debate is, had MIT known this individual was going
to spend his education on running a prostitution website, should it have
admitted him?

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andrewljohnson
It was an interesting article, but it got real interesting in the last
paragraph when the journalist just comes out and condemns the founder.

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johnnybgoode
Leaving aside the arguments about prostitution for a moment, I think it's fair
to say that a number of these women (not all) are uncomfortable with being
prostitutes and are only doing it to pay for college. College is expensive
largely because it is essentially the policy of this country that everyone,
especially women[1], ought to have college degrees. We've seen how student
tuition rises along with student loan limits; we've seen how students tend to
go to college somehow no matter how expensive tuition is, how much debt
they're getting into, or how important the degree is.

In these terms, far from being contrary to the spirit of universities like
MIT, this type of prostitution arrangement service is in keeping with the
proclaimed importance of college education. I.e., going to college is
considered so important that many female college students are now willing to
prostitute themselves (something most of them would not ordinarily do) to make
sure they can keep attending.

[1] <http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=611440>

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peteforde
This "opinion piece" isn't very well written, and I'm genuinely unclear why
it's on Hacker News.

Surely the author isn't the only hack journalist at MIT, and I doubt Mr. Wade
is the only sex entrepreneur to emerge from MIT.

It's just not that interesting.

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Hyena
The reason that people feel prostitution is wrong is because they feel that
no-consequences sex is wrong and so providing an inducement is doubly wrong,
likewise, that doing anything immoral for money is worse than simply doing it.

All the various comments which go on and on about exploitation fail to see
what actually makes most people uncomfortable about the situation.

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Tichy
I thought desperate need is starving, freezing, facing eviction, not
"struggling to pay for a college degree". Can't you put those degrees on hold
for a while (not sure how the system works)?

~~~
wmf
Many high-school students are told that you _have_ to have a college degree to
get _any_ job above subsistence level, so student loans look like the only
option.

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acroyear
..and another thing - MIT brains should never engage in 'one-night stands'.

..and another thing - MIT brains should never buy a girl a drink unless they
fully intend on making an emotional commitment.

(gimme a break)

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dreww
MIT - not a school known for its English or Journalism programs.

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anonymous
lol he mad.

