
African firm is selling pepper-spray bullet firing drones - SworDsy
http://www.bbc.com/news/technology-27902634
======
ChuckMcM
I am surprised that anyone would be caught off guard by this sort of thing.
After all it is going to be much more effective to fly over a crowd and shoot
at them than to try to hit them from behind a riot shield.

The Union outrage is interesting too, mostly because I agree that as your
government (or companies) acquire tools for crowd control it certainly has a
chilling effect on peaceful assembly. That said I don't see why these folks
don't have drones of their own. They were used to good effect to document some
of the protests in Turkey. As the drone is probably efiltrating its video
during operation it is much harder for a repressive regime to shut it down and
suppress the video.

~~~
TallGuyShort
>> That said I don't see why these folks don't have drones of their own

There's some important historical context here. The client was a South African
mining company (I assume - it said mining company, and the company is in South
Africa). There were recent riots in South Africa between a miner's union and
the mine, and the miner's got slaughtered (literally). Most likely not the
same company, but miner's in South Africa have a long, unfair history and it's
getting worse. They're extremely destitute and there's no way I see them
showing up to future protests with their own air support.

See:
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marikana_miners'_strike](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marikana_miners'_strike)

~~~
_djo_
The use of UAVs for commercial use, including this application, is at present
illegal in South Africa. So it's not at all certain that the client is a South
African mining company.

You're oversimplifying the events at Marikana, which were somewhat more
complex.

The shooting itself was preceded by days of violence in which striking miners
armed themselves with pangas (machetes) and guns and massacred two police
officers, two mine security officers and six other miners accused of not
participating in the strike.

It was the South African Police Service, not the mine, which shot 34 miners on
that horrible day. They did so after an operation to remove the miners from
the hilltop went horribly wrong, causing armed miners to run towards a line of
policemen who panicked and opened fire.

It also does not appear that the miners' union involved, AMCU, is negotiating
in good faith. Their non-negotiable salary demand of approximately US$1170 in
base pay plus another US$470 in benefits takes them into the upper percentile
of all South Africans and is more than a software developer with a three-year
degree earns on entering the workplace.

Moreover, each time the government and the mines reach an agreement with AMCU
on wages, AMCU has added additional demands not previously mentioned. It's
clear their main desire is to extend the strike, already the longest in South
Africa's history and responsible for two successive quarterly declines in GDP
this year.

Those types of wages aren't sustainable, so we're starting to see the mining
companies adopt the same techniques used in Australia and elsewhere which are
more automated and require far fewer workers.

In the end those who suffer will be the miners and their families, most of
whom live in dirt-poor rural areas and have no other income options. They've
been abused by the mining companies and their own union in equal measure and
let down by an incompetent government. There's no good outcome for them now.

~~~
coldtea
> _Their non-negotiable salary demand of approximately US$1170 in base pay
> plus another US$470 in benefits takes them into the upper percentile of all
> South Africans and is more than a software developer with a three-year
> degree earns on entering the workplace._

Well, miners in general create more value for their country and the world than
the average "software developer with a three-year degree". Without modern
computers you'd live in a 60s - 70s kind of society -- not very advanced
technologically but tolerable. Without mining we'd live in a 1000 B.C. kind of
environment (actually worse -- they still mined stuff back then).

Heck, without miners there wouldn't even be computers for the software
developer to work on (CPUs, batteries etc materials very much tied to mining)!

> _Those types of wages aren 't sustainable_

Says who? The mining companies? The same companies who used child labor ("coal
breakers") and paid miners a pittance while making a killing throughout the
20th century, especially taking advantage of immigrant and black miners?

~~~
_djo_
No, they don't. As with most manual labour work, mine workers produce a
relatively small amount of absolute monetary value per person compared to
software developers and other skilled occupations. Wages are determined by
those productivity levels and supply and demand. In general, the more people
who can do a job, the lower the wage.

It goes without saying that this doesn't mean those with lower productivity
are worth less as people, which is something many forget. All people should be
treated with the same amount of care and dignity.

Your argument about us being perfectly ok without modern computers is odd, to
say the least.

As for the wages being sustainable, the mining firms are public corporations,
publish their financials openly and are audited by both private firms and the
government. We are not merely taking their word for it.

~~~
coldtea
> _No, they don 't. As with most manual labour work, mine workers produce a
> relatively small amount of absolute monetary value per person compared to
> software developers and other skilled occupations. Wages are determined by
> those productivity levels and supply and demand. In general, the more people
> who can do a job, the lower the wage._

Miners ages are mostly determined by supply and demand.

What monetary value they produce doesn't come into play. It's not like the
mine owners share their huge profits with the miners.

> _Your argument about us being perfectly ok without modern computers is odd,
> to say the least._

Well, I lived in an era without "modern computers" and it wasn't that bad at
all. In fact in several respects it was better than today.

What does "perfectly OK" mean? I like my gadgets, shopping online, instant
communications and everything. In fact, I'm one of those "programmers" (though
with a better than 3-year degree).

But none of those things are indispensable. We managed without those, not in
antiquity, but merely 40-50 years ago. And even 25 years ago mostly geeks had
computers. The eighties, seventies are not some medieval dark ages of
humanity. Much less so the sixties.

~~~
_djo_
> _Miners ages are mostly determined by supply and demand._

> _What monetary value they produce doesn 't come into play. It's not like the
> mine owners share their huge profits with the miners._

Of course productivity matters, as that's what determines how much profit is
created and thus how much money is available for higher wages.

Since 2007, the wages of South African mine workers have increased by about
12% per annum on average, well above inflation, while productivity per worker
has declined by 35% and total output has shrunk. For instance, during the
commodities boom of 2001-2008, South Africa's mining sector shrank by 1% per
year as opposed to a global average increase of 5%, largely caused by the cost
increases of labour and electricity. As it is, labour costs are about 60% of
the total costs of an average South African mine, compared to a global average
of around 25%. And while Australian mine workers earn on average three times
more than their South African counterparts, they produce 10 times more value
per person.

So your assumption that mining firms in South Africa are making 'huge profits'
off of their South African operations is incorrect. They used to, but that's
no longer the case. South African gold and platinum mines are nearly all
marginal in terms of profit and face a future of decreasing output and
increasing input costs. That's why there's zero meaningful investment in new
mining operations in the country, as all the mining multinationals have gone
elsewhere in the world to find high-margin and high-profit opportunities. It's
a dying sector.

The only way South African mines can remain sustainable is for costs to be
dramatically cut, which is going to mean mechanising operations the same way
as has been done in countries like Australia, allowing for the work force to
be reduced massively and for higher-skilled workers to produce more. Those who
remain will earn far more than even the highest union demand at the moment,
those who are let go face certain poverty and suffering.

> _Well, I lived in an era without "modern computers" and it wasn't that bad
> at all. In fact in several respects it was better than today._

> _What does "perfectly OK" mean? I like my gadgets, shopping online, instant
> communications and everything. In fact, I'm one of those "programmers"
> (though with a better than 3-year degree)._

> _But none of those things are indispensable. We managed without those, not
> in antiquity, but merely 40-50 years ago. And even 25 years ago mostly geeks
> had computers. The eighties, seventies are not some medieval dark ages of
> humanity. Much less so the sixties._

We coped with that situation decades ago, the world has changed with the
advent of better technology and thus the idea of us turning back the clock and
suffering few consequences is what I find odd.

In any case, it's irrelevant. The software developer's salary was just an
example of what a highly-skilled worker in South Africa earns, so it applies
far more broadly than just to software. A country can certainly not do without
a highly-skilled work force, its engineers, mechanics, scientists, etc.

What it comes down to is a simple calculus: The South African mining industry
cannot afford to pay its 500 000 mostly-unskilled employees higher wages than
the market is able to bear for even highly-skilled workers. Something has to
give.

------
CapitalistCartr
The problem with the tools we are currently seeing created is this:

Nigeria (for example) doesn't derive its power from the people; but from its
oil, currently being pumped by Western oil companies. The populace are simply
an expense. The source of their money comes from Exxon and Shell; their
military might from foreign weapons manufacturers. I know a number of people
who work for said manufacturers.

------
mattgibson
Surely these won't be too effective. They'd be easily brought down by getting
anything at all (fishing wire, string, etc) fired from a makeshift catapult
caught up in the rotors.

High tech crowd control that can be defeated with stuff you've got lying
around in the kitchen doesn't seen too useful.

~~~
6d0debc071
Provided someone brought the kitchen with them, sure.

Though I think you may underestimate how easy it is to dodge relatively slow
moving things in the sky. I could see that sort of thing being defeated by the
operator flicking the drone up sharply when people start throwing stuff.

~~~
jqm
How about a cheap little suicide drone launched by the "protesters"?

But ya, it seems some sections of rope with weights on the end (or improvised
rope launchers) might be standard protest equipment if these things become
widely deployed.

------
jayshahtx
Side note: I'm always a little bothered when people attribute something from
"Africa". Africa has 54 countries, c'mon people

~~~
ars
What about when they attribute it to "Europe"?

Africa is a place, and the countries there are more similar to each other than
to other countries, so combining them is natural.

~~~
jxf
> the countries there are more similar to each other than to other countries,
> so combining them is natural.

That seems like a very inaccurate generalization. If you think, say, Egypt is
"similar to" Madagascar, Malawi, or Mozambique, that's difficult to agree
with.

They're in rough geographic proximity, if that's what you meant. But downtown
Manhattan and Ecuador are also the same distance apart and they're pretty
different.

~~~
ars
I had a feeling someone would mention Egypt. But despite where it actually is
Egypt is usually called Middle East, not Africa.

And you didn't reply about people combining Europe - to someone in Europe
France and Germany could not be more different - to someone outside Europe
they are more similar than they are different.

~~~
jxf
That's precisely my point -- that it's important not to succumb to our
internal biases. Just because we think they're "mostly the same" doesn't mean
they are.

------
jonmrodriguez
WTF. Blinding lasers aren't even allowed in combat during war, they're
considered inhumane and banned under international law.

------
greenyoda
Unfortunately, I can imagine militarized police departments all over the U.S.
getting excited about these kinds of anti-crowd weapons.

~~~
dmix
A few drones plus an 'armored riot-control vehicle':
[https://inkasarmored.com/armored-riot-control-
vehicle/](https://inkasarmored.com/armored-riot-control-vehicle/) with a built
in water canon and those evil protestors won't stand a chance.

------
downandout
For a mining (or any) company to buy this to control workers is reprehensible,
and it's rather shocking that they would publicize this as their first order.
They could have just as easily said that an undisclosed buyer has purchased
the first 25 of them. It's as if they are trying to market this as a slave-
control copter.

However, this makes me wonder why we don't have small military drones with
guns on them. It seems like they only have the large missile carriers and tiny
surveillance drones. Something in the middle that is armed would eliminate
most soldier-to-soldier battlefield confrontations. They could just send
several small armed drones out and fire at their opposition with near perfect
accuracy for every bullet since a computer would control the aiming and
firing.

~~~
bmelton
Define 'small'? Recoil and weight are the primary factors, I assume, in why no
such beast exists.

Anything in the size of the average quad-copter is going to have to manage the
fact that its flight trajectory would be significantly altered with each shot.
The guys at Red Jacket invented something like that, and the way they
mitigated the recoil was to have the barrel pointing straight down, which
limits the effectiveness dramatically.

You're right, clearly, in that there's a lot of room between the missile and
surveillance drones, but big enough to fire a rifle round might be a bit
bigger than you suspect.

~~~
downandout
Agreed that a quad-copter wouldn't be able to handle the recoil, and that
weight is a factor - bullets are (relatively) heavy. I was just saying that
something the size of a Predator drone isn't necessary for close combat. I'm
sure that there is some engineering magic that could be done to manage both of
these issues in a relatively small package.

~~~
stcredzero
A swarm of small drones with photographic flashers could give one side of a
gunfight a huge advantage.

------
jobu
_" Desert Wolf's website states that its Skunk octacopter drone is fitted with
four high-capacity paintball barrels, each capable of firing up to 20 bullets
per second."_

If they sell this in the US our company paintball outings might get a little
more interesting.

~~~
MasterScrat
Take a look at this...

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vICfKPoCubw#t=258](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vICfKPoCubw#t=258)

------
allochthon
If I were a manager at the mining company that purchased the drones, I would
be worried about retaliation in kind by workers who obtained a similar drone.

~~~
venomsnake
Why drones - invest in smart ground based flak cannon manufacturing.

If we can't fly -- we won't let anyone else either - old anti aircraft moto.

~~~
sudont
Indeed. Here's something somewhat related, from PyCon 2012. It deals with
using computer vision to fire a squirt gun at squirrels. The principle is
basically the same.

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QPgqfnKG_T4](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QPgqfnKG_T4)

------
angersock
Technical solutions to people problems.

~~~
scotty79
All solutions are technical. Only some are the wrong ones.

~~~
bnegreve
> _All solutions are technical._

What does this mean? When employees are on strike, one solution is to increase
wages. How is this a technical solution?

------
namlem
While I'm absolutely against using this kind of technology on peaceful
civilians, I think it would be interesting to see autonomous non-lethal or
less-than-lethal weapons deployed against actual terrorists. Not only would it
virtually eliminate the risk of collateral damage, it would also allow us to
capture and interrogate them.

------
oakaz
Fuck that and fuck you assholes who are excited about this torture weapon,
it's gonna be used against people! The first order was probably for a mining
company in Amazon, to torture the locals who defend their land against fucking
mining companies. And soon, it's gonna be used everywhere in the world against
people protesting for rights.

Lots of people lost their lives, lots of people lost their eyes by pepper gas
bullets this year, including this 15 years old kid:
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Berkin_Elvan](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Berkin_Elvan)

See this documentary: [http://www.worldpressphoto.org/multimedia-
gallery/2014/witne...](http://www.worldpressphoto.org/multimedia-
gallery/2014/witnessing-gezi)

------
jotux
They should send the drone to defcon this year to compete in defconbots
(defconbots.org).

------
yellowapple
I can't wait until someone builds a working ManHack. Only a matter of time at
this rate.

