
Svalbard is as close as you can get to a place with open borders - daddy_drank
https://www.thenation.com/article/svalbard-arctic-open-borders/
======
sdfjkl
Nonsense. The airport has no need of additional procedures because it is
gatewayed by Norway (it's not an international airport).

If you arrive there by boat, things look well different:

> Visiting yachts must obtain a cruising permit before arrival and make
> arrangements for special insurance to cover the possible cost of a search
> and rescue operation. Also compulsory is having a gun to protect the crew
> from possible attacks by polar bears, of which there have been several in
> recent years. Those who do not possess a gun can hire one locally. SAR
> insurance cover is also available locally but is probably much cheaper if it
> is arranged through one’s own insurance company or bank.

Source: [https://www.noonsite.com/place/norway/svalbard-
spitsbergen/l...](https://www.noonsite.com/place/norway/svalbard-
spitsbergen/longyearbyen/)

~~~
_-___________-_
Your quote really doesn't relate to TFA at all. "Open borders" is about
immigration, whereas you're discussing insurance and self-protection
requirements. Incidentally, a gun is virtually essential if you're going
anywhere on Svalbard outside of built-up areas, whether you arrive by boat or
not.

~~~
TheCoelacanth
It doesn't restrict immigration based on nationality. It does restrict it
based on a lot of other things, so it's not really open borders.

------
snowwrestler
I think the degree to which open borders are a reality within the U.S. is
under-appreciated. As a reminder, U.S. states are sovereign entities with
their own criminal laws, tax regimes, educational systems, property and
contract rights, civil rights, economic growth, industries, natural resources,
etc. In some cases their laws are pre-empted by U.S. federal law, but there
remains quite a bit of diversity.

Despite this, U.S. residents can travel or move anywhere they want within the
50 states, with no prior approval and relatively inconsequential paperwork
that largely amounts to notifying local authorities after the fact.

Given this, I think it's surprising, and somewhat illuminating, the degree to
which population, cultural, and economic differences persist across
generations. The states with the highest (MD) and lowest (WV) median household
incomes are directly adjacent to one another, but WV has not been emptied by
mass migration into MD. Plenty of Oregon residents complain about income
taxes, but don't move next door to Washington, which does not have an income
tax. Etc.

I know it's not the same as international borders, but it's also more
significant than a single national government with purely administrative
regions. Thinking about this has led me to question some of the fears about
open international borders.

~~~
rayiner
You dramatically overestimate how much of an economic difference there is
between MD and WV:
[https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-vwpy8_glsgc/Vi5llZ9ZILI/AAAAAAAAI...](https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-vwpy8_glsgc/Vi5llZ9ZILI/AAAAAAAAIvg/odurAYPHYG4/s1600/adjustedRPP.jpg).
Adjusting for purchasing power, the difference in median income is just 10%.
It’s like the difference between Belgium and Australia.

On the flip side, there is actually quite a difference between states like New
York (second poorest in the US) and Virginia. And there is a very large
internal migration from states like New York to states like virginia.

~~~
sixstringtheory
Having driven all over both MD and WV, both in cities and country. they are
_very_ different. I also think that Belgium and Australia are very different
in many ways, but they're also on opposite sides of the earth, whereas, as was
pointed out, MD and WV share a border. I've also been all over NY and VA and
would say they are more similar compared to the WV vs MD comparison. I'm not
sure where you saw that NY is the second poorest in the US... would be
interested to see a source on that.

Median doesn't tell me much because it doesn't describe the skewness of the
distribution of incomes. Without looking, I bet that both: 1) max income is
higher in MD than in WV 2) there are more people at higher incomes in MD than
in WV

So I looked it up for MD [0] and WV [1] and while they don't really help with
my conjectures, MD has a higher per capita income ($24,774 in WV vs $39,070 in
MD) and lower poverty rate (19.1% in WV vs 9.3% in MD).

Also interesting to note from those sources that they have basically the same
retail sales per capita and rate of persons without health insurance (although
MD has about half the disability rate).

[0]:
[https://www.census.gov/quickfacts/MD](https://www.census.gov/quickfacts/MD)
[1]:
[https://www.census.gov/quickfacts/WV](https://www.census.gov/quickfacts/WV)

~~~
rootusrootus
I recently visited WV and I found it an interesting contradiction. A lot of
the major infrastructure I saw was in perfectly fine condition, even quite
good in many places. But in a lot of the little towns the poverty was
palpable. Houses in such an amazing state of disrepair with patches cobbled on
top of patches. Then you drive into the hills around the town and sooooo
beautiful, big houses on big plots of land, etc. It was gorgeous to drive
through and see ... from the inside of our air conditioned van ;-).

I wonder how long until someone builds a high speed commuter line into the
heart of WV from DC. There is probably an obvious reason not to, but from my
west coast perspective it seems like a good idea.

~~~
volkl48
The puzzle piece you are missing is topography. Load up a topo map of the
state sometime. Nearly all of it is a twisted, practically fractal landscape
of hills/mountains.

And unlike some other regions known for mountains (like New England) there are
no (relatively) wide valleys between them.

It's wild, beautiful, and absolutely awful for building even a decent sized
town in. It's why the few cities in the states are at the far edges, and even
they are hilly. It's also obviously terrible for building transport
infrastructure to get anywhere quickly.

~~~
rootusrootus
That is an excellent point. The topography makes it beautiful, but now that
you mention it, I can see how it would make building an expensive hassle.

------
nostrademons
Antarctica too: if you can get there, you can step onto the ice.

There's a pattern here: the only places with open borders are places where you
wouldn't really want to live anyway, while the places with the strictest
border controls are often those that are quite desirable.

~~~
DVassallo
Germany, Ireland, Sweden, Denmark, Finland, Austria, and Netherlands are some
of the most prosperous countries in the world, and they have an open border
with 28 other countries — some of which can be easily classified as very poor
and undesirable places.

~~~
DVassallo
For example, Bulgaria's GDP per capita is $9,272 and Luxembourg's is $114,340.
Yet, there's full freedom of movement between the two countries.

~~~
dmihal
While Bulgaria is part of the EU, it's not part of the Schengen zone, meaning
they don't have truly "open borders".

~~~
DVassallo
There's full freedom of movement, so it's an open border. The Schengen zone is
no border.

~~~
kmlx
it’s not an “open border”. on the contrary. there are actual physical borders
between schengen countries and the rest of the eu. whenever you enter/exit
schengen you have to pass border control.

~~~
DVassallo
If your passport shows you're an EU citizen, you're allowed to enter. So it's
an open border for EU citizens.

~~~
kmlx
that’s not how schengen borders work. it’s not an open border. it’s an actual
border. and yes, you can be banned from travelling into schengen even if you
have an eu passport.

------
wmil
From another article:
[https://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/10/world/europe/a-harsh-
clim...](https://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/10/world/europe/a-harsh-climate-
calls-for-banishment-of-the-needy.html)

"The key to Svalbard’s status as probably Europe’s closest thing to a crime-
free society, according to the governor, is that unemployment is in effect
illegal. “If you don’t have a job, you can’t live here,” Mr. Ingero said,
noting that the jobless are swiftly deported. Retirees are sent away, too,
unless they can prove they have sufficient means to support themselves."

Basically Svalbard can have relatively open borders because it's unappealing
and they are very very aggressive about deportations.

~~~
tathougies
Having deportation along with open borders is the best example of how
doublethink has taken over any sane discussion of nordic economies and
government

------
netsharc
"Amid scaremongering about unrestricted migration, I went to Svalbard because
I wanted to see whether there were lessons we could learn from this
2,300-person community a few hundred miles south of the North Pole."

Translation: "I made up this bullshit and wrote this article so I can have the
magazine pay for my adventure vacation".

------
bsaul
"As climate change renders the rest of the planet as hostile to human life as
the far north, we too must make the choice between throwing up walls and
letting them down"

Is this really the general conclusion about the cause why people want to
emigrate to "developped" countries (the "we" in the citation) ? climat change
?

~~~
TazeTSchnitzel
Climate change was a significant factor in the Syrian civil war and ongoing
migration in Central America. It will only become more significant.

~~~
drdrey
Can you elaborate about the effect of climate change on the Syrian civil war?
I am genuinely curious

~~~
sm4rk0
[https://theconversation.com/is-syria-really-a-climate-war-
we...](https://theconversation.com/is-syria-really-a-climate-war-we-examined-
the-links-between-drought-migration-and-conflict-80110)

~~~
kmlx
that article mentions that drought was one of the many reasons of the Syrian
civil war, not a “significant factor”.

~~~
SomeOldThrow
What is a reason if not a significant factor?

------
jiveturkey
> Svalbard’s geopolitics provide an imperfect but alternative vision of how
> places can be governed, whom they can accommodate, and how communities can
> form.

Hardly. It's a rugged community of 2300 people. That's not a model for
alternative government.

> "This is not a cradle to grave society,” one of Askholt’s colleagues told
> me.

~~~
semi-extrinsic
> this is not a cradle to grave society

Specifically: if you are pregnant approaching 7-8 months, if you become
seriously ill, or if you are old enough to need care, you are flown off to the
mainland. You're literally not allowed to be born or die there.

~~~
incompatible
I'm curious about how that works for people with no visa or right to residence
or healthcare in Norway.

~~~
semi-extrinsic
They will probably never get there in the first place - there's actually
passport control at the airport before you leave the mainland.

~~~
incompatible
You could get there with a tourist visa and stay? After the visa has expired,
I guess they'd let you back into Norway mainland before potentially kicking
you out again, perhaps with a large medical bill.

Edit: The article mentions for example "significant Thai and Filipino
population"; I assume not all would have a right of residence in Norway.

------
rgrieselhuber
The border is the climate.

~~~
tyingq
Currently partly cloudy and 48°F/9°C. Though, yeah, I imagine most days aren't
like that.

~~~
Rebelgecko
The 3 months of darkness is kind of a bummer

~~~
felixfurtak
It does have _really_ fast internet though. There is a dedicated submarine
fiber cable servicing a population of only a couple of thousand people.
[https://submarine-cable-map-2018.telegeography.com/](https://submarine-cable-
map-2018.telegeography.com/)

~~~
hanche
There is a good reason for that: It is an ideal location for downlinking data
from satellites in polar orbit.
[https://www.regjeringen.no/en/dokumenter/meld.-st.-32-201520...](https://www.regjeringen.no/en/dokumenter/meld.-st.-32-20152016/id2499962/sec9#kap9-4-4)

(Edit: But the article points that out.)

------
hestefisk
I really dislike web sites that open a massive pop up complaining I have an ad
blocker installed.

~~~
sm4rk0
You must be using either a wrong or a wrongly configured ad blocker.

------
noetic_techy
Slightly off topic. I've often wondered why so much effort is put into "sea-
steading" when you can simply get enough money to buy island territories away
from countries that may not want them and setup something akin to a prototype
country. Sure the islands of the far north may pose some technological
challenges, but probably less so then setting up something floating on the
ocean.

~~~
kmlx
if you’ve got a big enough army to command the sky’s the limit. if you don’t
then don’t expect your new country to survive for long.

------
monksy
According to the state department:

" Svalbard: The Svalbard archipelago consists of nine main islands located
midway between mainland Norway and the North Pole. You need a passport to
enter Svalbard.

    
    
        Unlike Norway’s mainland, Svalbard is not party to the Schengen Agreement and air travelers to Svalbard from Norway will depart the Schengen Zone prior to boarding.
        Travelers to Svalbard face unique hazards given the extreme weather conditions and limited transport infrastructure.

"

[https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/international-
tra...](https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/international-
travel/International-Travel-Country-Information-Pages/Norway.html)

~~~
evanb
This assumes you get to Svalbard the traditional way--by flight from the
Norwegian mainland, in which case you need a passport to transit or depart the
Schengen on the mainland side. If you arrive by some other means you do not.

~~~
jobigoud
Why do we need a passport to _exit_ Schengen? Just for book keeping for when
we come back ? Why isn't the passport needed when leaving by boat then?

------
EGreg
In Russia you can take a tour boat to St Petersburg from Finland and they let
you in for 3 days no problem.

True of many countries that accept cruises. I think cruise ship may be a good
way to get into a country without trying to get a visa.

~~~
arthurcolle
In the US at least, I would imagine that if your cruise ship stops at a port
in the USA and you come onto the mainland, you would still have to go through
customs if you're coming from another country.

------
univalent
I took the ferry from Dublin to Wales while on vacation. We collected all our
passports once the ferry docked and we went to our car preparing for the
immigration officers, police etc. There was no one. Literally. We only saw
sheep for the first 10 miles or so after driving off the boat.

~~~
schoen
That's due to the CTA
([https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_Travel_Area](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_Travel_Area)).

~~~
incompatible
Another place where border checks will presumably be implemented if/when
Brexit takes effect.

------
incompatible
People who want to live on Mars could start by showing self-sufficient in
Svalbard or Antarctica first. I assume it would be far easier because of the
ideal gravity, protection from radiation, atmosphere and water. Manufacturing
everything required would still be challenging.

------
thomasfl
The norwegian diplomat baron Fritz Wedel Jarlsberg, managed to make Svalbard
Norwegian territory during the ongoing peace negotiations in Paris after world
war 1. It is rumoured that the french diplomat leading the negotitations was
Fritz’ secret lover.

------
bookofjoe
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20619824](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20619824)

------
cardiffspaceman
Also:

[http://archive.is/MGHdz](http://archive.is/MGHdz)

------
cojxd
>The Dream of Open Borders Is Real—in the High Arctic

For whom is open borders a dream?

~~~
jlangenauer
For me. I'd love to see open borders, where everyone has the freedom to move
to where they can achieve their goals and dreams, rather than being restricted
to the country where they happened to be born. How many Einsteins have been
born in Africa, but denied the chance to make the contribution to humanity
that they could have?

(And before the cynics note that open borders are incompatible with welfare
states, that's not necessarily true, and the path to open borders is a long
one, not a sudden change we can make without massive upheaval right now.)

~~~
refurb
_And before the cynics note that open borders are incompatible with welfare
states, that 's not necessarily true_

Ok, why is that not true?

And I'd argue that any Einsteins born in Africa are going to find moving to
another country and near impossible task regardless of how open the borders
are.

~~~
jazzyjackson
OP said not _necessarily_ true

Take universal basic income, if combined with open borders, you are attracting
people who would like to also get (say) $1000/m, who will now use that welfare
to induce demand on people who may like to trade this freshly minted coin for
some service they can render, so the economy grows through immigration instead
of debt.

~~~
toinetoine
_so the economy grows through immigration instead of debt._

Without debt how would the state pay the monthly income for the increasing
number of people coming to collect it?

~~~
mason55
MMT would suggest that the government prints money and then adjusts taxes to
control inflation.

So you have a bunch of new people move, they start collecting UBI, the
government prints money to fund the new liabilities, the newly-immigrated
spend their UBI, incomes/revenues go up for businesses, the overall size of
the pie grows, and if inflation starts to get out of control you raise taxes
such that everyone is still better off than before.

Unfortunately this wouldn't work because of politics. You need a relatively
reactive monetary & tax policy which just is not realistic.

~~~
jmastrangelo
But what happens when you can't raise taxes any further? Or the high taxes
shrink the motivation of the people running businesses to expand their
businesses.

The money has to come from somewhere or you _will_ have runaway inflation.

------
nautilus12
Exploiting the known demographic bias of tech (and thus hackernews) to post a
story that has nothing to do with tech and everything to do with the political
dogfighting in the US knowing that it will go to the top is kind of pathetic.

