
US citizens will need a visa to visit Europe starting in 2021 - daegloe
https://www.cnn.com/travel/article/us-citizens-need-visas-to-visit-europe-in-2021/index.html
======
rmind
The article mixes two seaparate issues:

\- EU is introducing ETIAS, an electronic authorisation system which is pretty
much modeled after the US ESTA system (used by visa-free nationals). It will
apply to all countries which currently enjoy the visa-free regime with the EU
and that includes USA. So, technically it is not a visa, but your details will
be pre-checked and it will cost €7 (compared to $14 for US ESTA). Ironically,
after Brexit, this requirement will also apply to UK.

\- There is a separate dispute between EU and US, because US imposes visas on
five EU states (Bulgaria, Croatia, Poland, Romania and Cyprus). According the
EU law, all EU countries should be treated equally or otherwise reciprocal
measures should apply. There have been calls within the EU to respond tit for
tat and impose EU visas on US citizens, if the issue does not get resolved
soon.

As an EU citizen, I can just add that I support both initiatives.

~~~
zaroth
Tit for tat is a great model in pre-school. The more mature response is to
investigate the underlying issues.

Instead of putting your fingers in your ears and yelling “We are EU, you must
treat us all the same” there could be some acknowledgement that travelers from
those countries are disproportionately overstayers and there is a justifiable
reason to need to more closely track them.

If US travelers are overstaying in any particular EU countries, I would expect
and appreciate the same measures would be put in place.

Policy should be set based on the reality on the ground and not merely
policital fantasy.

If those countries citizens are not in fact disproportionate over-stayers than
the US should change their policy and apologize.

EDIT: This short brief [1] seems to imply there’s room for improvement on the
US side. I don’t quite understand why the subjective visa refusal rate is so
high for some of these countries when the overstay rate is so low. Unless you
argue that the refusals are preventing the overstays, but that is very much
unproven.

[1] -
[https://www.heritage.org/sites/default/files/2018-01/IB4812....](https://www.heritage.org/sites/default/files/2018-01/IB4812.pdf)

~~~
rmind
Just a few points:

\- Tit-for-tat response is a geopolitical reality. Regardless whether you
think it is pre-school model or not, this is what pretty much all countries
do, as it is a perfectly rational way (and sometimes even the only way) to
defend your interests. By rational I am talking about the Game Theory kind of
rational. :)

\- You suggest to look at each EU country individually (just also keep in mind
that there are no border controls beetween the EU countries in the Schengen
Zone). In such case, should we also look at each US state individually
(because they are also not uniform, e.g. some are much poorer than the
others)? EU as a whole has much greater weight and leverage. The point I am
making here is that it is another geopolitical reality: countries use their
weight and, for example, US uses its weight to exert its influence pretty much
all over the world. Well, so does the EU in this case, whether the US likes it
or not.

\- Your point about the citizens of those countries being disproportionate
overstayers is not true. As a matter of fact, the overstay rate of these
countries is lower than some of those which are already in the Visa Waiver
Program (VWP), e.g. compare those fives countries with Spain, Greece, Hungary,
etc. So, if there is some kind of threshold they cross, then it should apply
to the current VWP countries to, shouldn't it? Please the see offical US
Homeland Security report as a reference here:

[https://www.dhs.gov/publication/fiscal-
year-2017-entryexit-o...](https://www.dhs.gov/publication/fiscal-
year-2017-entryexit-overstay-report)

~~~
ardy42
> You suggest to look at each EU country individually (just also keep in mind
> that there are no border controls beetween the EU countries in the Schengen
> Zone). In such case, should we also look at each US state individually
> (because they are also not uniform

US states have no foreign relations. There's no Californian embassy in Sofia,
but there is a Bulgarian embassy in Washington. No American travels on a
Californian passport, but Bulgarians travel on Bulgarian passports.

If you want foreign countries to treat the EU as a single diplomatic unit,
then all the EU member-state embassies should probably be closed and replaced
with EU embassies, and all member-state passports should be replaced with
generic EU passports.

~~~
mpweiher
Why? The EU and its member states are free to organize themselves any way they
see fit, and states can decide on collective action, see NATO article 5.

~~~
ardy42
The US is also free to organize its policies as it sees fit. If the EU really
doesn't want the US to treat its member states as diplomatically separate
entities, due to treaties the US was not party to, then it should stop holding
them out as separate entities and present an unambiguously unified front.

As a practical matter, no country could subject citizens of different EU
member states to different visa policies if they all had identical passports.
That's exactly the situation with American passports.

~~~
mpweiher
> The US is also free to organize its policies as it sees fit.

Yep. And then you get disagreements and tit-for-tat. Just don't claim that the
US's policies are in some way more legitimate.

> then it should stop holding

Says who? On whose authority? If the US wants its citizens to be treated
uniformly, then it shouldn't give out per-state driver's licenses.

~~~
ardy42
> Says who? On whose authority?

The authority or reasonableness and practicality.

> If the US wants its citizens to be treated uniformly, then it shouldn't give
> out per-state driver's licenses.

It may be news to you, but those aren't travel documents and are
nonstandardized to boot. But if you think the EU should wade into that mess, I
guess you're entitled to your opinion.

Also, it's probably worth noting treating Americans as citizens of their state
and not the US for immigration purposes is totally unprecedented in the modern
era of passports. On the other hand, the precedent over the same period has
been to treat Europeans as citizens of their member states and not of an
undifferentiated EU.

------
SyneRyder
This is really bad reporting. It isn't just US citizens, click here for a list
of the 57 countries that will also require ETIAS in 2021:

[https://etias.com/about-etias/who-needs-etias](https://etias.com/about-
etias/who-needs-etias)

It even includes the island of Palau and their population of 20,000 people:

[https://etias.com/about-etias/etias-for-palauan-
citizens](https://etias.com/about-etias/etias-for-palauan-citizens)

This has nothing to do specifically with the US.

~~~
Scoundreller
It’s funny to see the scam sites launch so quickly, just so they can charge 50
EUR in 2021 for sending in your 7 EUR application.

------
Simulacra
This is in response to security concerns for some EU countries, so it's really
just a political tit for tat.

"The United States has been in a dispute with the EU's European Parliament and
European Commission over visas for Bulgaria, Croatia, Poland, Romania and
Cyprus. Travelers in those five countries are the only EU nations that the US
requires to apply for a visa."

~~~
Findeton
The EU is acting as a single political body, that's good. The US requires a
visa for visiting from the EU, thus the EU requires the same to USA visitors.

~~~
repolfx
It's not that good. Now travel for millions of Americans is becoming more of a
hassle. This suits the political agenda of the EU because it wants all of
Europe to be a single country run by itself and doesn't care about collateral
damage along the way or even revels in it (look how big and powerful we are).
But in the end it's still just making travel harder for people, despite all
their rhetoric about how freedom of movement is one of their "four pillars".

There is no obligation for countries to always get bigger, or for countries to
pretend there's no regional variations. ESTA is a pain and stupid and it gives
me a worse impression of the USA every time I have to fill it out. There is no
reason why the rest of the world should follow suit.

I see nobody else has said it yet, so I will - I hope that after Brexit the UK
can drop this ETIAS nonsense and be more welcoming to Americans, even if they
don't drop ESTA in response.

~~~
acjacobson
The reason the rest of the world should follow suit is to pressure the US to
drop ESTA. Visa free is visa free - if your country creates additional
hassles, expect the other country to respond in kind.

------
cm2187
To be honest it very much looks like the US ESTA which is a visa in disguise.
This seems like a legitimate reciprocity to the measures the US have taken
against Europeans.

------
kashprime
This is for an electronic travel authorization, which the US, Australia and
Canada already require of all visitors. It's simple and takes minutes online,
hardly a 'visa.'

~~~
cm2187
How do you define a visa then?

~~~
philipov
"An endorsement on a passport indicating that the holder is allowed to enter,
leave, or stay for a specified period of time in a country."

A hat and a helmet both protect your head, but you wouldn't call them by the
same name.

~~~
cm2187
Well, with centralised IT systems, it doesn't need to be a physical sticker on
your passport but rather an authorization number associated with your passport
number (more secure than relying on someone not faking the sticker). But the
vetting process is still there. Fundamentally isn't it the exact same thing (a
sort of an electronic helmet)?

~~~
philipov
You asked for a definition, so I looked it up. I'm not advocating a specific
opinion.

------
geff82
The elephant in the room is that between the EU and US, there should be no
visa at all, ideally some kind of free move zone like the EU is itself (and
befriended states like Switzerland)

~~~
fiblye
>there should be no visa at all

And why is that?

~~~
ajmurmann
We need people to travel and get different perspectives more and not less. I
too often see arguments in political discourse that something could never
work, yet I've been to many countries where these things are normal. For
example, I want all US citizens to experience a great pic transportation
system so that we can elevate the discussion in the US about it. Likewise I
want everyone to experience a Japanese city, so that we can have a better
discussion about the forever in the US and Japan's zoning system. I want
Germans to see that the sky doesn't fall off you get rid off the insane system
that requires permission from existing, local stores before you can open your
own or just even see how convenient a countdown on a traffic light can be.

We have so much to learn from each other! In fact I wish we could make it
mandatory for everyone to have to live a year in a foreign country. It would
make the world a much better place.

~~~
Youden
> In fact I wish we could make it mandatory for everyone to have to live a
> year in a foreign country.

I get where you're coming from and agree that would be great for America but I
really don't want mass migration of Americans to Europe. The number we have is
enough. The culture is poisonous and already destroying America (see
homelessness, healthcare, government shutdowns, racial conflicts, political
divisions), we don't need it spreading here any more than it already is.

If Americans showed any inclination of integrating this might be a different
story but I'm surrounded by expats who despite residing in European countries
for years haven't learned the language, put their kids in English-speaking
schools and otherwise gone about their American lifestyles in European
countries without any apparent consideration for the locals (and often go on
to complain about how "unwelcoming" the countries they live in are).

Don't get me wrong, I don't hate Americans, I don't think they're horrible
people and the country certainly has huge achievements. However, the idea of
mass (albeit temporary) migration to/from Europe to give "different
perspectives" terrifies me, as it feels like it'll largely be in a single
direction, at least when it comes to culture.

~~~
ajmurmann
Unfortunately I think you make a good point. I vividly remember how during my
most recent Japan visit I'd feel frequently embarrassed for other westerners
who were either unwilling out unable to talk quietly in public and especially
on trains. It almost physically hurt. Meanwhile I know Asians who've lived on
the US since many years and still haven't figured out that it's bad behavior
her to make loud chewing noises while eating. Maybe the majority of people
just aren't interested in learning alternative ways to live.

It's honestly really hard for me to wrap my head around this, since hardly
anything is more interesting to me than learning about other cultures, their
different norms etc. It not only opens your eyes to how some things could be
better but you also gain a fresh perspective on your own culture and yourself.

------
obrisintor
That is a shame. Whenever I would take a long trip that went geographically
over the EU, I would usually buy a ticket that had a 8+ hour layover somewhere
in the EU and tour around for a little while. I guess I will now have to find
another country to take a layover in. Maybe I will start flying British Airway
if the UK lets me visit visa free.

------
Scoundreller
Ugh, I hope their system avoids some real messes, but unlikely:

1) massive number of scam sites charging tons of money to submit your
application (hopefully)

2) doesn’t crash on the first day

3) doesn’t exempt rich people that come by private plane (unlikely)

4) still allows EU nationals to get into EU with the Canadian or American
passports. I’m technically an EU citizen by lineage, but havent bothered to
get that passport since I don’t even speak the language.

It will probably still have to loophole if flying into a non-EU country and
then driving in.

------
dontbenebby
It sounds like this e-visa is good for 3 years... does that mean
hypothetically I could go digital nomad in Schengen Area as a US citizen?

~~~
nyrulez
If you conduct business or "work", you might have to get a separate visa with
different terms. EU seems to be pretty strict about "work-permits". There are
risks to doing such activities on a regular tourist visa.

~~~
dontbenebby
I was under the impression if you're employed by a US company and simply
traveling you're fine. The EU has a pretty strict definition of "working" \-
eg checking an email from your boss on vacation in Berlin is technically
working.

I think what _would_ run afoul is if you're doing journalism, photography, or
something where you're doing the work in th EU, versus firing up a corporate
VPN and writing code on a US server for a US company.

(Keep in mind you can do things like go to meetings or attend conferences w/o
a special visa in the EU and Canada currently)

I suspect in the long term "digital nomad" visas will become a thing. After
all, if someone wants to work in say, Tokyo or Talinn for 2 years in their
early 20s, and is willing to pay Japanese or Estonian taxes, that could be a
win win. You get someone in a high tax bracket bringing money in, and
presumably buying other things (eating out, rent etc).

------
Scoundreller
When scenario that really has really caused issues in the Canadian system is
that they required Canadian permanent residents and Canadian work permit
holders to travel with those permits.

They were ineligible for the Canadian ETIAS.

But if they lost their permits while overseas, it could take weeks for a new
permit, meanwhile a Canadian passport holder could get a new one in 24hrs.

------
mk89
Completely useless response from our incompetent and overpaid European
politicians two months before the elections. The world goes in one direction,
and what do they do? They really think to increase security by applying these
measures against countries like USA, Canada or Mexico... ? I must be living in
a parallel universe.

------
aaomidi
Americans are usually extremely lazy about this stuff. I wonder what the
effects are going to be on Tourism in Europe.

~~~
arkades
It won't be a problem. It's not like Americans bring any tourist money to the
EU.

~~~
patrickaljord
Checking in from Paris, yes they do bring a lot of money.

~~~
casefields
Pretty sure he was being sarcastic.

~~~
patrickaljord
Sorry, yes I noticed he was being sarcastic but just wanted to make it clear
for anyone wondering :)

------
ElBarto
No, no visa will be needed.

The EU is introducing a system equivalent to the US's ESTA. (Most) EU citizens
may travel visa-free to the US but must register (and pay) on ESTA.

It will be the same for US citizens to travel to the EU.

~~~
throwaway12iii
Both systems are visas. Fact.

~~~
ElBarto
No, they are not.

ESTA specifically allows people to travel visa-free.

------
anonu
We are witnessing the breakdown of the world order established post WWII. The
EU exists because of the US. Its security and trade routes are guaranteed
because the US is an ally. No EU country has a military that compares to that
of the US, especially in terms of naval power.

Hindering access to the EU may be a minor nuisance on the surface. But its a
harbinger of worse things to come and undermines the unprecedented peace and
stability we've seen in the world in the last 75 years.

~~~
ElBarto
The EU exists because of Europeans. The US do not want the EU to be a
political power.

The US have had the 20th century, that great for them but it's high time for
Europe to recover.

~~~
casefields
You don’t see how the Marshall Plan helped at all? That of course, being after
that little skirmish of World War 2.

~~~
ElBarto
The Marshall Plan was the US keeping the Reds at bay.

Peanuts in comparison to the jackpot that WWII was for the US, and it cemented
their influence.

------
Fjolsvith
Preposterous! Central American citizens don't need a visa to visit the United
States!

------
tjbiddle
This sounds amazing! When I first began traveling, I had to strategically time
my time in the Schengen region to not overstay 90 days within a 180 day
period. I ended up going to the Balkan region for a few months before circling
back into the Schengen at the tail end.

This setup allows for 3-years multi-entry. That's insane! Well done, EU.

~~~
ucha
The 90 days within 180 days period restriction still applies. It's just that
you will need a visa now and it will last 3 years whereas you didn't need one
before.

------
UnpossibleJim
So, given that the ETIAS was only for 5 countries of the EU and the EU has
reciprocated by enacting a union wide measure that, essentially requires the
same thing (in school yard fashion); are we now going to "push back" and
require an ESTA for all countries in the EU?

~~~
tgsovlerkhgsel
Which EU countries do NOT require an ESTA to travel to the US?

~~~
UnpossibleJim
To my understanding it was only Bulgaria, Romania, Cyprus, Poland and
....shoot, I always forget the 5th one, anyway, I'll edit this when I look it
up. That needed one.

~~~
tgsovlerkhgsel
I believe these countries need real visa. Germany etc. still need ESTA.

------
arthurofbabylon
Will visitors be permitted to stay longer than 90 days per 180 days?

~~~
tapppi
No, since the traditional visa waivers are only for stays of up to 90 days
originally as well. So you'll still need a visa for longer stays, most likely
either a work or student visa.

[https://www.schengenvisainfo.com/etias/](https://www.schengenvisainfo.com/etias/)

> You can enter the Schengen member states for as many times as you want, for
> as long as your ETIAS is valid, and you have not stayed more than 90 days in
> a 180 days period.

------
christoff12
“The Union said that the ETIAS visa is valid for three years and allows
Americans to enter the Schengen Area as many times as necessary.”

> if I’m understanding this correctly, it’ll make things easier for nomads

------
sys_64738
I'm an EU citizen who enters Europe on a US passport. Will I be forced to pony
up money for this?

~~~
cr1895
Why would you enter the EU on a US passport if you’re an EU citizen?

~~~
sys_64738
You must enter/exit the USA with a US passport.

~~~
acjacobson
Yes, that means you must use a US passport when you are leaving a US airport.
When you enter at an EU port you you can use whatever passport you want
(unless the country you are entering has a specific requirement). I have an
old friend that is dual US / UK citizen and both countries require that he use
his passport when entering / exiting the country. So he leaves the US using a
US passport, and he enters the UK using a UK passport. And vice versa. If you
are a dual EU/US citizen you ONLY have to use your US passport when you enter
the US, and when you leave (which hardly counts because there is no exit
immigration in the US). Once you arrive in the EU use your EU passport to take
the fast line.

------
ycombonator
They have ex ISIS fighters and god knows who else walking freely across EU
into countries like Germany & Sweden and they are worried about people across
the pond. ️ In my opinion EU is trying to assert strength to demonstrate to
its remaining members that’s a viable entity. The union is held together by
fragile alliances and Germany can’t keep paying the bills for ever. It’s only
a matter of time the whole thing unravels.

~~~
chappi42
Germany has immense social costs for migrants, I don't think this is
sustainable. There are also many 'single cases' of unwanted consequences
(especially for women). Insofar I agree and think this retaliation is not
where the action needs to be (also I'm not aware of a high number of Americans
causing issues in Europe). Tit for tat is weak.

