

CEOs vouch for Waiter Rule: Watch how people treat staff - jkuria
http://www.protocoladvisors.com/wp/news/articles/ceos-vouch-for-waiter-rule-watch-how-people-treat-staff

======
apenwarr
The waiter rule works - if someone is rude to a waiter, it's an incredibly bad
sign, because at the very least, it means they've never heard of the waiter
rule.

However, just because someone is _nice_ to a waiter doesn't mean they have
good social skills or don't treat inferiors badly. It turns out there's an
even better variant of the waiter rule: listen to _all_ a person's
interactions with other people. Listen, for example, to how that person talks
about other people behind their back. As the aphorism says, what people will
say to you about other people, they would say to other people about you.

In my real-life example of this lesson, there was a person who always gloated
about how they had screwed or were about to screw other competitors,
negotiators, etc, but of course always made sure to point out how much he was
helping me. I foolishly believed it, when of course all the evidence was that
I shouldn't. Eventually, the situation changed, he didn't need me anymore, and
sure enough, he took advantage of me too.

Knowing how people treat others is _supremely_ important as a defense
mechanism.

~~~
jorangreef
A corollary to this, always speak in private as you would in public. Never say
anything about someone else you would not say to them directly (even if you're
talking to your spouse about work issues whatever). Sometimes you think you
need to, but looking back it's always better to keep your own voice strong and
true. It's like playing a violin. The more wrong notes you hit when you
practice in private, the more wrong notes you hit when you perform in public.
Eventually the bad notes resonate so much they start affecting the voice of
the instrument and it starts to develop poor tone in and of itself. The wood
particles start to re-align themselves. That's what separates the great
instruments from the cheap instruments. Sure the great instruments were made
well to start, but they were also played well throughout their lives. Always
speak in private as you would in public.

~~~
swombat
This rule applies online too. Try not to make statements online that you're
not comfortable seeing on the front page of the New York Times tomorrow, or
indeed in 20 years.

Nothing online is private. Nothing.

~~~
jorangreef
As we share more we're learning to value our privacy more.

------
hugh3
_The purple sorbet in cut glass he was serving tumbled onto the expensive
white gown of an obviously rich and important woman... Thirty years have
passed, but Odland can’t get the stain out of his mind, nor the woman’s kind
reaction. She was startled, regained composure and, in a reassuring voice,
told the teenage Odland, “It’s OK. It wasn’t your fault.”_

That woman had admirable self-control. It's difficult to retain your composure
when you're inconvenienced by the incompetence of your social inferiors, but
it's usually worthwhile.

The trick, I find as I get older, is to make the move from asserting status to
_assuming_ it. Instead of the mindset "I'm so fucking awesome, why won't these
goddamn idiots stop inconveniencing me", you move to the mindset "I'm so
fucking awesome, which means I have a responsibility to set a good example for
these people". As soon as you start seeing your role at the top of the pyramid
as being all about setting a good example for those below you, rather than
being served by those below you, dealing with them gets a whole lot easier.

(Then again, maybe that's just me, and I've just over-shared enough to mark
myself out as a supremely arrogant prat.)

Another story I like of noblesse oblige is about casino magnate Steve Wynn,
who shortly after purchasing a $139 million Picasso accidentally ripped a hole
in it at a cocktail party. "Oh shit", he said, "Thank goodness it was me". If
anyone else had ripped Steve Wynn's $139 million Picasso it would have ruined
their life, but if Steve Wynn accidentally rips Steve Wynn's Picasso then the
painting is just as ripped _but_ nobody's life is ruined.

~~~
corin_
Sorry, but I really do hate your attitude. It takes a very big person to never
think of yourself as better than anyone else (I'm definitely not that person),
but a few points:

\- Why does the fact that it is people who are less important than you
screwing up annoy you more than anyone else? I get just as pissed when I'm
screwed around by a CEO as when I get screwed around by a taxi driver.

\- Some people find it difficult not to get angry at stuff, I don't know if
that's just because they've learned to be that way or if it's unavoidable. But
for lots of us it's possible to, for example, have a drink spilt on you and
think "fuck that's annoying" without getting mad at, or even blaming, the
person whose fault it was. Even if for some reason it does make you angry, you
shouldn't need any motive for hiding that anger rather than being a jerk about
it, assuming they didn't do it on purpose (again, no-one's perfect, few people
manage to never act like a jerk, and, again, I'm not trying to preach, I'm a
long way from perfect when it comes to being a dick to others.)

\- The fact that people have done less well in life (and/or were less lucky)
means you can think "I've done better than them", you can't think "I am better
than them". They're not "inferiors", and you're not at the "top of the
pyramid", at least not in society, just (I assume) in your wealth. Being rich
doesn't mean you're good for or important to society.

And for all your comments about having come across badly in your comments,
that really hits at the heart of the problem so many people have with this
rule. The last time the "waiter rule" came up on HN it was talked about in
comments as a "yes, you should always be nice to waiters or you will appear
like a jerk". No, that's missing the point; you should be nice to waiters
because otherwise you _are_ a jerk. And the fact that normally these views are
kept in your head rather than spoken outloud doesn't change the fact that they
are your views, your problem isn't that you told us, your problem is that you
have them.

I know I've been pretty negative to you, but I do feel like you were asking
for it.

~~~
ericflo
"I've done better than them" vs. "I am better than them" is such an important
distinction, it really is those subtle differences in attitude that make all
the difference in how we view the world and what we get out of the world.

Somewhat off-topic example: my mom told me later in life that, when I was
younger and I did something stupid and my parents scolded me they always
phrased it as "that was a stupid thing to do" instead of "you are stupid for
doing that thing."

It's a minor difference in phrasing and attitude, but it's a major difference
in impact. The former makes you feel bad, you understand that you screwed up,
and you don't want to do it again. With the latter, you either A) accept
subtly that you're stupid, which has all kinds of negative consequences, or B)
you reject the notion that you're stupid, so you don't feel the need to change
the behavior and your anger can then be directed at your parents for calling
you stupid.

~~~
tuhin
Exactly!

I was reading this book " How We Decide" (must read by the way) and one of the
examples was this distinction between two groups of students who scored well
in an easy test.

One group was told, "Wow you must be smart" and the other "Wow, you must have
worked really hard at this". The first group showed deteriorating performance
with increasing level of difficulty of test and gradually accepting maybe they
were not as smart as they were told.

While the other group kept trying even in higher test and score far better. Of
course both the groups were divided equally in terms of intelligence and
attitude.

Very important perspective for every walk of life.

------
Anechoic
I find it just fascinating that _anyone_ (CEO or whatever) would ever be rude
to a person that is handling their food.

Oh well.

~~~
corprew
Yeah, every time I see someone being rude to a waiter, my first thought isn't
about the waiter rule, it's whether this person didn't watch fight club.

------
Nycto
I was a bit surprised to see an entire article devoted to this, as it's a very
common in the theatrical world. Because of the short turn around time,
directors are constantly having to work with new people. As well as calling
people they know on the resumes, they will often ask the people collecting
headshots and herding cattle outside the audition room if anything notable
occurred. It can make or break an actors chances.

This is easy to apply to business. If you have a secretary greeting interview
candidates, just get a quick opinion. Nobody wants to work with an asshole,
and everyone remembers them.

~~~
danssig
If this is the case how come so many assholes got through the screening
process? The arrogance of very successful actors is legendary (though very
successful singers may surpass it).

~~~
qq66
They pretended to be nicer people before they were very successful.

That's why the waiter rule is so weak -- it has a lot of false negatives.

------
mgkimsal
And yet, somehow, we continue to see psychopaths promoted up the corporate
ladder while decent folks - who pass the 'waiter test' with flying colors and
are otherwise qualified for the positions - are passed over.

~~~
justin_vanw
And _they_ keep promoting them! I can't stand _them_ or anything they stand
for. _We_ should do something about this, like we would have in the good old
days!

------
j_baker
I'm always amazed at how nice people are when they want something from you. If
you want to see their true colors, you have to watch how they treat people
they don't want something from.

------
kingkilr
Interesting, a friend of mine used to own a chain of restaurants in Chicago,
recently he went out to dinner at a nice restaurant with family, he said that
his sister-in-law's boyfriend had some habits that indicated a similar to the
personality that's described here, but that aren't as obviously obnoxious. For
example if a waiter didn't introduce themselves by name he'd ask theirs,
apparently waiters hate stuff like this because it's such an unequal
relationship.

------
vaksel
It's kinda sad that we need the waiter rule...is it too much to ask for people
to treat others nicely?

~~~
rendezvouscp
Unfortunately, yes. Some people don’t see the point of treating others nicely,
_especially_ when there are no consequences to mistreating others.

------
evangineer
Bill Swanson may not have invented the Waiter Rule:

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_H._Swanson#Swanson.27s_...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_H._Swanson#Swanson.27s_Unwritten_Rules_of_Management_and_plagiarism)

------
nraynaud
I like the idea of the Waiter Rule ; but here in France it would be quite
difficult for a client to be more rude than the waiter. :)

2 anecdotes: An American friend of mine wants to become a waitress when she's
back to US, just to give people the experience she didn't have here in France.
Last time I was shocked to find such a soft-speaking waiter, and I though for
a few seconds he was just joking.

------
loy22
Down here. Cached:
[http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:l0Yrdc_...](http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:l0Yrdc_X8lMJ:www.protocoladvisors.com/wp/news/articles/ceos-
vouch-for-waiter-rule-watch-how-people-treat-staff+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk)

------
sayemm
I could see this. During my senior year in high school I worked as a waiter at
a four-star restaurant on Park Ave in Manhattan. The clientele included a lot
of business execs working nearby and they often met for meetings. Some of the
regulars were casual, friendly, and very cool, but then there were always a
few who had a snobby and obnoxious air about them.

I like this as a psychological indicator, not just because of the employer-
employee dynamic, but because I think it shows how one perceives their own
self-worth, as well as that of others. If you're elitist and too self-absorbed
in your own status, you're probably not well-suited for a lean merit-based
culture and you're probably also going to be blind to spotting hidden talent
in others as well.

~~~
smiler
Four star restaurant? The only internationally recognized star system for
restaurants is the Michelin guide, which has a maximum of 3 stars. It really
grates me that Americans go on about 4 star and 5 star restaurants

~~~
corprew
There's also an difference between the michelin system, where most restaurants
get 0 stars and getting even one star is a biggish deal, and rating all
restaurants from one to five, which is what the system used in the us seems to
do.

Like the rating system on the web, it's useful for rating all things, not just
the highest ranks.

The Michelin guide is also not particularly useful as a global system because
it's heavily weighted towards french cuisine --
[http://www.urbanspoon.com/blog/14/Fixing-Michelins-French-
bi...](http://www.urbanspoon.com/blog/14/Fixing-Michelins-French-bias.html)
\-- and only serves major tourist destinations outside of europe -- six cities
in the US for example.

The Michelin green guide, which is more the equivalent of other rating
systems, does use a 1-5 scale.

------
rilindo
That is why when you are interviewing at a company, you treat everybody you
meet politely and cordially - even the cranky secretary. :)

~~~
SoftwareMaven
I always ask the receptionist about how the candidate acted. You don't have to
be all warm and fuzzy (heaven knows I'm not!), but you do have to be
courteous.

------
tuhin
Here is a simpler version: "Would you be OK with someone talking like that to
you?"

If the answer is no, then you know what to do. If the answer is Yes, then the
other person probably did cross the line or whatever. If the answer is Yes,
but ________"Insert any statement of the contrary nature or how infallible you
are here"____________, then you are a jerk.

It is not just about waiters, but any human being be it higher in whatever
illusionary status system you believe in or lower than you.

Treat others how you would want to be treated.

------
danielharan
Rather ironic that it's the CEO of a weapon manufacturing company that's
moralizing about how to treat others.

~~~
brl
Perhaps not as ironic as you think:

[http://www.nytimes.com/2006/05/03/business/03cnd-
raytheon.ht...](http://www.nytimes.com/2006/05/03/business/03cnd-
raytheon.html)

------
tzs
I'd worry about someone who mistreats waiters for the simple reason that it is
a sign that person is a complete idiot. Unless all that's left is for the
waiter to bring the check, you are pissing off someone who is going to be
handling your food. Mistreating the waiter is just asking for the next dish to
be seasoned with spit or worse.

~~~
danssig
Depends on the country. There are still places where being a waiter can be a
career but if you get caught doing something insane like that (I personally
think spitting in someone's food should be a crime on the level of assault at
least) your career is over.

------
blumentopf
Working link:

[http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:l0Yrdc_...](http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:l0Yrdc_X8lMJ:www.protocoladvisors.com/wp/news/articles/ceos-
vouch-for-waiter-rule-watch-how-people-treat-
staff+site:+www.protocoladvisors.com/wp/news/articles/ceos-vouch-for-waiter-
rule-watch-how-people-treat-
staff&hl=en&lr=lang_de%7Clang_en&client=safari&tbs=lr:lang_1de%7Clang_1en&strip=1)

------
Mz
I've skimmed the comments and haven't noticed these two thoughts, so will add
them:

1) Opening line of the article: _Office Depot CEO Steve Odland remembers like
it was yesterday working in an upscale French restaurant in Denver._ Waiters
won't necessarily remain waiters. We are all human beings, regardless of our
current role at the moment. There are also cases where someone may be more
important than they appear to be -- for example, managers run cash registers
during busy times at my local grocery store. I have long liked collecting true
life anecdotes about such things: Charlie Chaplin entered a Charlie Chaplin
look alike contest and came in third; a bank turned down some long-haired,
jeans-wearing young person for an account and then they were given the account
when one of the younger employees recognized them as a wealthy rock star;
someone in a bank was an utter ass to a guy in overalls covered in paint who
threatened to move his accounts. She said something like "feel free". He was
the owner of a construction company worth millions and did, in fact, move his
accounts.

Treating people badly who appear to be your "social inferiors" at the moment
is simply stupid. That person may not really be the "social inferior" they
appear to be. And even if they are at this moment, they may not remain so. If
you are an ass to them, they will remember it when the table has turned. It is
shocking how often you run into people later, sometimes many years later.

2) Even if they truly are your social inferiors and will always remain so, it
is still stupid to mistreat them. That waiter carries your food from the
kitchen to your table. Do you really want to give him reason to do something
to your food? If you think he won't, then you think he's a nicer guy than you
are. Don't be so sure. People with power may be assholes to your face. People
without power are very likely to reciprocate but in a way that covers their
ass, so it is more likely to be done behind your back.

So aside from my hippie-tree-hugger, give-the-world-a-hug, we-are-all-first-
and-foremost-souls-on-a-spiritual-journey idealism for trying to be decent to
people I meet, I think folks who mistreat others in this manner are simply
stupid. Last, I will note that my observation has been that folks who try to
lord it over others in this manner are also usually insecure and hiding behind
their degrees, titles, big paycheck etc. I'm not impressed by such behavior,
at least not favorably so.

------
vnkatesh
I didn't know that this was a management rule! I loved this article.

