
Thoughts on dropping out to do a startup - DanielRibeiro
http://joel.is/post/34510193020/thoughts-on-dropping-out-to-do-a-startup
======
pg
"As a result, my advice to anyone thinking of dropping out is to keep
studying, and use every opportunity to build projects and startups on the
side."

Yes. In fact, I'd go even further. Don't even try to build startups. That's
premature optimization. Just build things that seem interesting. The average
undergraduate hacker is more likely to discover good startup ideas that way
than by making a conscious effort to work on projects that are supposed to be
startups.

~~~
w1ntermute
And unless you're Gates or Zuckerberg (protip: you're almost definitely not),
that college degree is going to be infinitely more valuable to you than
anything you might come up with while in college.

A lot of people think that it was because he dropped out that Zuck was so
successful, but IIRC, during Startup School 2012 he said that Facebook hit 1
million users before he dropped out. So unless you're coming up with the next
Facebook (and you're almost definitely not), dropping out is a boneheaded
move.

Your startup can fail at any time before people give two shits about it (and
most do, quite quickly), but a good degree from a quality university will stay
with you _for life_.

~~~
CamperBob2
_Your startup can fail at any time before people give two shits about it (and
most do, quite quickly), but a good degree from a quality university will stay
with you for life._

Actually it'll stay with you for your first entry-level job, after which
people will simply stop asking when/where you went to school.

~~~
kamaal
No, College degree matters. In fact in many cases your resume may not even
pass through the filters if you don't have college degree on it.

People seriously need to think before dropping out. What do you plan to do, if
your start up folds up? Which is a very likely scenario given how many start
ups fold up.

You can do the start up thing anytime. But going to college has always been a
young mans game.

~~~
randomdata
_In fact in many cases your resume may not even pass through the filters if
you don't have college degree on it._

If you want to be a doctor or lawyer, sure. If you want to work in technology,
I've never met anyone who cares. In hindsight, I believe you can optimize your
path for your career which often would not include college, but admittedly it
is difficult to see that path as a youth, which I suppose could make college a
good default.

~~~
shanelja
This is a point which often worries me, I decided to skip higher education to
travel and began programming (professionally for a company) when I had just
turned 19, now, 7 months in I'm starting to see that my friends who went to
college and university are actually light years behind me when it comes to
achievements so far.

It's a bummer that I'll probably never work for the Facebooks or Googles of
the world, but there are always jobs going in tech and once you have
experience, your education is pretty much irrelevant.

 _Your education shows your first employer that you are dedicated and know
your stuff, when you go to your second job, it is your performance in job one
which will instead be validated._

------
jorde
One thing that almost never rises up when people talk about college is US work
visas. Having a university level degree is pretty much essential in order to
obtain a H1b visa to be able to work in the US. Of course there are ways
around it but that itself is a good motivation to finish your studies if
you're a foreigner.

I agree that school is good time to work on side projects and learn by doing.
One other good way is to do a internship for a US based startup as obtaining a
J1 internship visa is relatively trivial if you're in college. That was the
single best thing I did in school.

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rayiner
I'll second the "keep studying" part. After high school and summers during
college, I worked at a wonderful startup. Software was a big part of what they
were doing, but hardware was the real innovation and everybody there except me
was a hardware guy. By my second year I was giving architecture presentations
to the client, because who else was going to do it? At one point I
contemplated just dropping out and going to work because I'd be coming in at a
higher salary than if I graduated and went somewhere else. I spent the summers
grinding at that company, spent the school year doing projects on the side,
and frankly blew off school because who cared about GPA when you had all that
experience?

It's been five years since I graduated college, and to this day I regret not
spending that part of my life focusing on that part of life. Fact of the
matter is that I realized the things I genuinely enjoyed hacking (compilers,
operating systems) had all been done in the 1980's, and I had no interest in
all the web stuff that was being done now. At the same time, anything else I
might have wanted to do was closed off because of my college grades. You don't
realize at 18-19 how much your college grades matter, especially if you wander
outside the tech field.

I'm sure lots of kids are more responsible than I was at that age. They can
balance hobby projects along with acing classes. But if you're not one of
those people, then I suggest either doing school or doing a startup, but not
trying to do both at the same time and letting both suffer. There is plenty of
time in life for entrepreneurship. And frankly, outside the little Silicon
Valley bubble, your chances at starting a successful business will be greatly
enhanced by the signaling devices you can earn by focusing single-mindedly on
school.

I do always like to point out the irony of the fact that Peter Thiel graduated
from Stanford UG and Stanford Law, clerked for a Circuit judge, then went to
go work for an investment bank. He was almost thirty by the time he started
his first venture! Life is long, the only thing you're rushing towards is
death. :D

~~~
dctoedt
> _anything else I might have wanted to do was closed off because of my
> college grades. You don't realize at 18-19 how much your college grades
> matter, especially if you wander outside the tech field._

'rayiner, if you're who I think you are (Northwestern Law?), your grades must
not have been _that_ bad; you seem to be doing just fine career-wise.

------
dools
A lot of the benefits he's talking about appear to assume that you're being
supported financially during tertiary education (college/university) so the
advice is like "if you find yourself in a situation where you are completely
financially supported with a lot of free time, don't stop being financially
supported in order to start a company". Which is pretty obvious advice.

------
colinbartlett
Stop thinking about "doing a startup" and start thinking about "starting a
business".

~~~
pg
That's like saying stop thinking about eating an apple and start thinking
about eating fruit.

Startups are a proper subset of businesses. It's up to each individual what
type he or she wants to start.

~~~
timc3
I think what he is trying to say is just concentrate on what you are
building/creating and not whether it fits a certain buzz word which is sound
advice.

~~~
bravoyankee
He probably should have said that then. I didn't know what he meant initially
either.

------
FD3SA
I think the value proposition of college is completely based upon whether the
learning strategy of classroom lectures followed by written tests works for
you. For me, reading books and attempting projects are the only way I can
learn effectively. Technical lectures are incredibly boring as I can't control
the pacing, and many times I find they are altogether irrelevant.

Technology moves at such a blistering pace that if you aren't working with the
cutting edge tools on a regular basis, you are falling behind. Unfortunately,
most classrooms insist on teaching with antiquated methodologies and
overemphasize classroom time/testing versus building projects with modern
tools. For example, I had to take a full year of Scheme, which in hindsight
was helpful, but could have been done far more efficiently by me reading How
to Design Programs [1] over the summer and attempting the exercises. School
time could then have been used to teach modern methodologies via project work.

1\. <http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/matthias/HtDP2e/>

------
gabchan
If you are not American, do not drop out. You will have issues obtaining a US
work visa without a uni degree, i.e. you cannot go to Silicon Valley, i.e. you
will be at a disadvantage.

~~~
randomdata
On the flip-side, if your reason for going to SV is to look for riches, the
composition of the top 1%, according to Gallup, is comprised of:

    
    
      23% college graduates
      27% college dropouts, or less
      49% post-graduates
    

Unless you are willing to do post-graduate studies (which, I imagine, is
primarily limited to professional degrees like MD and JD), you are
statistically worse off by having a college degree.

~~~
sskates
The statistics you present do not show that you are worse off for having a
college degree.

------
jandrewrogers
There is a reason the average age of successful first-time startup
entrepreneurs is something like 35. And this is something I only learned in
retrospect, having precocious talent for being at the right place at the right
time in my 20s and never really capitalizing on it. Yes, there are outlier
cases but really successful startups tend to be led by people that already
have a few iterations under their belt.

Experience is more valuable than it ever seems like it is before you have it.
It will also take more than the couple years in college you might skip to
acquire it. College does not add that much value from the standpoint of
building a technology startup but there is also little upside in not
completing college or using it as an opportunity to gain some early good
experience.

Dropping out and doing a tech startup should be independent decisions.

~~~
csomar
Your whole point is based on the "35 year-old" static. That being said, if you
don't link to the resource you are getting that data from; your argument is
likely not going that far.

I dropped for two years, and experience was the main bottleneck (though I
thought I had a lot of experience when I did). I'd be interested to confirm
that.

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TheMakeA
In my early 20s. Dropped out of college to get "real world experience."

In retrospect, the thought of having blocks of free time to pursue whatever I
want is very appealing. For now I am stuck doing 40+ hour workweeks and trying
to cram side projects in on nights and weekends.

I wish I were back in college.

~~~
csomar
Could you elaborate more how college would have benefited you more now? Many
people with college degrees are wearing your shoes.

~~~
TheMakeA
I think in particular, I would/could have benefited more from the increased
number of opportunities for free time and flexibility:

* No longer have seasonal breaks outside of the odd vacation time.

* Can't cram work into only a couple days a week as I am expected to show up every day.

* In college, you can skip classes that you already know the material for and only show up for tests (i.e. do the minimum possible to maintain a good grade). With work, you are expected to be 100% productive every single day. There is no chance to get ahead: If you run out of work to do, you are given more, or more will be created for you.

This mostly assumes that you're already very smart and while in college you
are financially supported via loans or scholarships, but if you're attending
Stanford, MIT, or Harvard, you probably meet both criteria.

It's not that I want a college degree. I want to be financially supported
while having (more) time to work on the cool things I want to work on, which
is actually the same reason I want to run my own company. College is one such
example that provides that opportunity.

~~~
randomdata
Why not try freelancing? Take on only enough work to support your living
costs, which should be _far less_ than a full time job if you are a developer
(I'm betting you could get by on 5-10 hours per week if you are careful with
your money), and leave the rest of your time free to do whatever you want.

You are not going to get rich doing it that way, but wealth doesn't seem to be
a concern of yours anyway.

~~~
TheMakeA
That's definitely something I have considered and may well end up doing. I
just haven't started moving in that direction yet.

------
stevewilhelm
As an experiment, pick three random portfolio companies from a16z.com,
benchmark.com, and sequoiacap.com and see what percentage of the founders are
college drop outs.

In SV, what you know and who you know are both very important.

------
damian2000
One thing to keep in mind ... sure, look at Gates and Zuckerberg the two prime
examples of college dropouts who went on to found wildly successful companies.
But if I'm not mistaken, these guys were already wildly successfull before
they dropped out?

Another thing to keep in mind is that the majority of successful tech startup
founders probably did finish college and have some life experience... E.g.
Elon Musk is a prime example - he got degrees in both Economics and Physics
before going on to found Zip2, X.com (precursor to PayPal), SpaceX and Tesla
motors.

------
Jonanin
Hopefully this is related: can anyone give some advice or input on dropping
out to work in silicon valley in general? I'm not close to done (first
semester freshman), but I have an internship at a certain large SV company
this summer. If you were in my position, and that company offered a job, would
you take it?

~~~
breckenedge
Not to discourage you, but your education will likely benefit you far longer
than most SV companies will be around. The benefits of education also brought,
in my life, career choices that would not have been available without it.
Choice is liberating. Who knows though, the world does seem to be changing.

~~~
randomdata

      > Choice is liberating.
    

I find it to be overwhelming. I am routinely contacted by people asking if I
am looking for work, and what they are doing seems like it could be an amazing
experience, but you get comfortable in your six figure job that you love and
taking the risk on something new is a huge decision. Like, "should you divorce
your wife to date the interesting new girl you met?" kind of huge.

I did not have the opportunity to obtain a formal post-secondary education
though, so maybe that is something you learn to manage in that process.

~~~
jarek
> I am routinely contacted by people asking if I am looking for work, and what
> they are doing seems like it could be an amazing experience, but you get
> comfortable in your six figure job that you love

One percent (of developers) problems.

~~~
randomdata
25% of the North American population are college educated. Based on the
previous poster, I would assume at least 25% of the population have to deal
with it. In fact, they probably have it worse given the more opportunities
than I have access to.

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bob_tyson
this is a tricky subject with the current state of free online education. im
currently enrolled in a small tech for game design. its becoming more apparent
as time goes on that everything im learning in school is easily found online.
not to mention my school keeps losing all of our good instructors to full sail
and Disney leaving us with fresh college graduates. for me it boils down to
the quality of education im paying for. i know being in debt is apart of
getting your degree but at what point do you take the leap of faith and just
try to educate and grow on your own?

------
zacharyvoase
It’s really easy to forget that the only reason you have these swathes of free
time is because your life is funded by a student loan (which is usually the
cheapest credit you’ll ever get in your life).

------
timc3
Customer development is not a "Startup concept" it's fundamental. If you get
that wrong then you certainly shouldn't drop out.

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mememememememe
How many startups can actually reach stable revenue? I don't mean you need to
take down Facebook or Google. But there are way too many startups. Sometimes I
start to think: how many customers do they get? Ten? Twenty? Thirty? How long?
A year?

But on the other hand, startup is great for fresh out graduates. They learn
better and quicker in theory - they are forced to adapt to the change of specs
and environment. It's a great place to test your ability as an engineer and a
team person. It's a challenge.

~~~
moocow01
I think the majority of startups teach great lessons in how not to run a
business. Some of the best lessons Ive learned is watching others as well as
myself inadvertently blow stuff up and realizing that should have been done a
lot differently. Every once in a while the stars align but what the tech media
doesn't say is that the majority of work that goes on in startups is doing
stuff that is experimental but typically turns out to be a not so great or
extremely bad business decision.

~~~
mememememememe
I think it's true. Well, two blades. Business wise, you need a real business
man. Technologically you must employ the right technical lead. Then you and
your employees (in particular fresh graduates) will learn quicker and better.

