
Users complain that Apple is 'nickel and diming' them - onetimemanytime
https://www.businessinsider.com/hundreds-of-people-are-complaining-on-reddit-about-apple-nickel-and-diming-them-2018-11
======
edhelas
What about just stop buying those things?

Seriously if I'm buying a laptop one day and I'm finding out that there's no
power cable in the box, I just bring it back and said that they made a mistake
and forgot something.

They are just trying to press any last dollar from their customers, that's it.

When you were buying an iPod a couple of years ago you had the AC adapter,
USB/FireWire cable (and long ones!), sometime some extra accessories (pocket
holder for the iPod Mini). All those small extras were really adding a little
plus to the experience.

Today you are just buying an expensive laptop, that you have to bring back to
the Apple Store yourself (if you have one close by) if you have any issue.
They doesn't cover some reparation costs that any other company would do. They
are killing the 3rd party-reparation market. Also knowing that those devices
are more and more fragile (seriously that keyboard on the latest MacBook).

Just stop buying those devices.

~~~
coldtea
> _Seriously if I 'm buying a laptop one day and I'm finding out that there's
> no power cable in the box, I just bring it back and said that they made a
> mistake and forgot something._

There is a power cable, just not a long extension that also used to be.

> _What about just stop buying those things?_

What about we still want them, and we don't want to buy and suffer a subpar
(for our criteria) alternative just to get them to be more generous with their
profit margins...

~~~
cannonedhamster
The only way that you matter to them is how much you bring to their bottom
line. This isn't the Steve Jobs era where you have a sole visionary crafting
something of value. This is a run of the mill hardware company charging luxury
prices for above average hardware in the best of cases and a ton of vendor
lock in.

------
orev
Apple has long been the subject of criticism for its pricing. Usually by tech
people who think that the cost of components is what drives the final price of
a product. This is wrong.

There is a SINGLE driver of price for a is product: how much people will pay
for it. That’s it. If people are willing to pay the price of a product, then
that is the fair price of it. Simple as that.

You can get into some game theory about the sweet spot of lower price vs
volume vs profit, but Apple seems to be doing pretty well in that area
already.

~~~
CPLX
> There is a SINGLE driver of price for a is product: how much people will pay
> for it.

Yeah no. Actually there are two main drivers, the one you mention (called
“demand”) and the one you’re leaving out (called “supply”).

The concepts of supply and demand aren’t even a little novel or unheard of.

So it’s the interaction of people’s willingness to pay with the availability
of other options or close substitutes, and the desire of firms to supply those
items at a given price level.

~~~
coldtea
> _Yeah no. Actually there are two main drivers, the one you mention (called
> “demand”) and the one you’re leaving out (called “supply”)_

Yeah, no. What the parent said covers both demand and supply. Price is exactly
what people are willing to pay given both demand and supply.

~~~
CPLX
This is not correct. If the willingness to pay does not correspond to a
willingness to sell there is no transaction.

The actual selling price and quantity sold is determined by the interaction
between supply and demand.

This concept is first day, first hour, of any discussion of economics.

~~~
coldtea
> _This is not correct. If the willingness to pay does not correspond to a
> willingness to sell there is no transaction._

We're talking about prices as verified by millions of transactions (Apple's
unit sales), so that's already solved.

E.g. the actual prices they managed to sell things, not just some sticker
price for unsold products.

------
ThJ
Apple had a good run. I'm in a twist. I don't like Windows or Android and
Linux just isn't there on the desktop. I made the switch from Windows/Android
around 2012-2014 and it was a relief. Now I hate all their new hardware. They
have really let down their professional users. Every owner of a new Macbook
has one of those flimsy and ugly port extenders hanging off the side of the
machine just to get a basic set of ports, and the butterfly keyboard is god-
awful. I can't type on a keyboard that hurts my fingertips.

As for the iPhone: I'd like to keep my home button with TouchID and my screen
without the notch. I'm not sure what to upgrade to when this iPhone 7 Plus,
which by the way cost a fortune, breaks.

Apple seems to have crossed a line. They're no longer selling good products at
a premium. At this point, they're basically milking their customers. I hope
this backfires severely for them.

~~~
wilsonnb3
There’s a difference between “no longer sells good products” and “no longer
sells the exact product I want”.

~~~
save_ferris
It's weird how as they've added more SKUs to their product lineup, it's become
harder to find the exact product I want. Their product lineup used to be so
simple and easy to navigate, but now it's a mess, and it's opinionated just
enough to push users in a particular direction.

Want a fully-loaded 15 in. MBP without a touch bar? Too bad. I don't care that
it shines when using Garage Band because I don't really use Garage Band.

They appeared to kill the Macbook Air when they dropped the latest iteration
of the Macbook, only to bring back the Air last month.

Sure, these machines are all still well-built and should meet the demands of
their users. But Apple's ability to communicate and ship their various product
lines is getting noticeably worse, and that raises fears for the future
(rightfully so.)

Because at the end of the day, we're not just buying laptops and phones, we're
committing to the ecosystem that these devices grant us access to.

~~~
theabacus
> I don't care that it shines when using Garage Band because I don't really
> use Garage Band.

Who uses Garage Band, ever? Such a limited piece of dumbed down Logic X
garbage. I go buy good software for music and delete that s __t but, man!,
that program is like cancer—it just keeps coming back.

Now, THAT is frustrating.

------
porphyrogene
I just bought a brand new iPhone SE for about $160. It's tiny, fast,
inexpensive and miles ahead of my not-that-old Samsung in terms of usability.
I will probably never use its full computational capacity so there is nothing
attractive about the newer, more powerful phones. It also has a 3.5mm audio
port!

I agree that it is absurd to pay $800 for a phone that lacks features I want
and has features I don't want. So I didn't. It's that easy.

~~~
prolikewh0a
I just bought a $160 Android One phone from China. Headphone jack, dual sim,
256GB SD, FM radio, IR blaster, tiny notch & chin with a really respectable
IPS panel with great colors & saturation, receive at least the next 2 major
Android versions & monthly security updates, 12 hour screen on time battery
life, works fine with T-Mobile & ATT in USA, camera that would easily compete
with mid-range 2018 phones with a portrait mode that actually works better
than I've seen on any other phone.

Why are people buying these $1200 phones that have taken away pretty much
everything?

~~~
StreamBright
This is all great. What are those next two major Android releases include that
I need?

Also, how can I remove the Google surveillance code from the phone? I just
dont like that they trac my location, record my conversations and inject spam
into almost every “product” they got.

Comparing any Android device to iOS is hard because the the former is a data
collection device with some features reminder of a mobile phone while the
latter is a mobile phone primary designed and build for the best UX.

~~~
prolikewh0a
Most of this is opinion, so I'll answer the legitimate questions.

>What are those next two major Android releases include that I need?

These are future releases, so not sure. Android 9 'Pie' should be available
soon and the features included in that can be researched with your preferred
search engine.

>Also, how can I remove the Google surveillance code from the phone?

You can install a third party ROM if you'd like. LineageOS doesn't come with
Google Play Services.

>Comparing any Android device to iOS is hard because the the former is a data
collection device with some features reminder of a mobile phone while the
latter is a mobile phone primary designed and build for the best UX.

Use what you like. I personally find iOS to be terrible with ergonomics, UX,
and just plain everyday features. You can't open zip/rar files, can't download
MP3's, can't play m4a's, can't play .webm's, there's no file management
system. I can do pretty much everything my laptop does on my $160 Android, but
not on a $1400 iPhone.

------
virmundi
Oh, they are. On the other hand, maybe, if you keep the device long enough,
it's not too bad.

Here's my present life. I bought a System76 laptop about this time last year.
I wanted to get away from Mac OS since Eclipse is terrible on it (shortcut-
wise). I prefer Linux, as long as it just works. System76 offers that. Now the
System76 battery is down to 90% of life after moderate use. My Late 2013 MBP
is down to its 80% life after 4 year, the battery swells a bit, but still
stays on longer and charges quicker than the System76.

Maybe on the whole the price is valid.

~~~
chadlavi
I've only used apple laptops since I was in high school, starting with the
first release of OS X in 2001; they're long-lived enough that I've actually
only owned 3 of them in that whole 17 year span. an iBook, a Powerbook, and
I'm still currently using a 2012 Macbook Air.

I wince every time I buy one (with 5+ years between purchases, the ASP is
quite a bit higher each time), but the longevity of the devices does really
soothe the sting of the price tag.

Then again I think they're sort of on to us; I have always believed that the
best thing to do, since the device will last a while, is to max out every spec
that you can't change yourself later, like ram. These days, though, _every_
spec is something you can't change yourself later; you end up having to take
their overpriced upsell on every item if you want a competent machine. It's a
real slap in the face that they charge you $400 over the base price just to
get a reasonably sized ssd for example (500gb vs the base 128).

500gb ssds compatible with the older macs cost about $99. I don't think I'm
getting 4x the value out of having no choice about it, but they know they can
get away with such outrageous prices because we don't really have a choice
about it.

~~~
OJFord
> the longevity of the devices does really soothe the sting of the price tag.

Or does the price tag make you eek out every last fl.oz. of longevity?

Even if a <whatever> with Linux on it wouldn't last 6 years, you could
probably get the same hardware for half the price and replace every 3; you'd
have a time-relative higher spec laptop for more of the time as a result.

e.g. my phone cost £60 2 years ago, at the time was essentially equivalent to
a 2 year old flagship, but new. I should probably replace it soon, but at the
same amortised cost, an iPhone would've had to have lasted me longer than
they've existed. (And the current ones are more than twice as expensive, which
wouldn't bode well for its replacement!)

~~~
chadlavi
It's definitely true that there are cheaper devices out there, and it's not
hard to get a better price per annum effective cost; I'm not saying macs are
the cheapest thing out there, and I'm not maximizing for effective annual
price.

What I'm saying is: I want the mac, specifically. And the fact that I know I
can trust it to last 5+ years makes me less concerned about the overall
premium price they charge for it.

------
jdavis703
This goes for all companies, but I’m tired of every product shipping with a
USB cable. I have plenty already, it’s wasteful to keep shipping more.
Further, can we all migrate to USB C, that’ll further reduce the need to
include a different kind of cable with each electronic device.

~~~
kalleboo
I still get exasperated when I see a brand new product ship with _mini_ USB.
I'm afraid we'll never get rid of these legacy ports.

~~~
prolikewh0a
Just got ATH-m50xBT headphones, brand new as of last week, comes with a
MicroUSB. WTF Audio Technica!

~~~
iamdave
I'll raise you. I once Bought a new set of headphones that came with miniUSB
that plugs into a volume knob which itself plugs into my desktop via USB 2. It
also came with a miniUSB to 3.5mm adapter.

Just this morning I was pulling them out of my backpack getting off the train
and noticed for the first time (I've had these headphones a year) there's a
discreet 3.5mm headphone jack.

You know what _didn 't_ come in the box? A 3.5mm headphone cable.

Which means if I want to plug this thing into an old iPod or my docking
station at work, I'd need to bring a miniUSB cable and an adapter. Or just go
buy my own 3.5mm cable.

Very interesting design choices if you ask me.

------
nickm12
The 'nickel and diming' is definitely there, but also straight up price
increase. Twelve years ago, when I was a student, I was able to buy an iBook
G4 at what seemed like a very reasonable price for what you got. Now it feels
like you can't get into a decent Mac for less than $1200.

I guess Apple's solution is to sell old models forever, rather than design
new, low to mid-range products.

~~~
ken
You're ignoring inflation. The iBook G4 shipped in 2003, and the cheapest one
(no wifi!) cost $1100. In today's dollars, that's over $1500. The entry level
Apple laptop today costs only $1200, or 20% _less_ in absolute terms.

For the lower cost, you get far better hardware (CPU, battery, screen, wifi
included, etc) and software (10.14 vs 10.3, iWork included for free, good
selection of free modern web browsers, etc).

If the iBook G4 seemed very reasonable, the 2018 MacBook Air should seem like
a steal. It's not just better value (technology always does that), but lower
absolute cost. The only thing they haven't done is drop prices _faster_ than
inflation, but that's a pretty arbitrary line.

~~~
ianai
Inflation doesn’t tell the whole story. My 12” PB was all the machine I needed
when I got it. Now I need a cell phone for basic stuff like finding my way
around town. And I still need a laptop for traditional PC use. They’ve added
SKUs to my life and the sum total price of them is outrageous. That’s where
people feel fleeced. Not to mention the new SKUs don’t actually fit the marks
like they used to do.

~~~
zapzupnz
> My 12" PB was all the machine I needed when I got it. Now I need a cell
> phone for basic stuff like finding my way around town

Back in the day, I used to write addresses on bits of papers or print out a
picture of a map. Did that become illegal since the iPhone came out?

One device can still be all the machine one needs, and it can still be a
notebook or even a desktop machine.

------
loopdoend
The USB-C cable the comes with the new iPad Pro (11”) is so short, flimsy, and
awful you would think it was a knockoff.

------
chiph
$9.00 for a lightning to 3.5mm headphone dongle. Yes, I paid. But didn't like
the experience.

~~~
spiritcat
Think how much better the experience would be with air pods though!

(not that i don't kinda want some air pods)

~~~
ianai
I still prejudge all airpod users as douchebags - same as the old Bluetooth
douchebags from the blackberry days. AirPods just look like an over
complication.

~~~
iamdave
I tried them out, just from a functional standpoint of using them as
ostensibly wireless earbuds? They do a really good job, I get the appeal
behind them from a very utilitarian point of view. Just one person's own
opinion.

Wouldn't ever own a pair though. I am absolutely awful at not losing earbuds,
so I exclusively wear over ear phones now. Much harder to lose.

------
dman
If you work for a large company and have a department that does tech support,
talk to the people there about recent Apple products. In my case that made me
realise that the increasing unreliability is not just anecdotal or the result
of people being finicky - it appears that the last couple of years of macbook
pros have had measurably more support issues than previous versions. When my
2013 Macbook Pro dies, I suspect I will not replace it with a newer machine.

------
goldcd
Apple publicly said they aren't going to release sales numbers going forward
(take a guess why). To retain revenue they just need to get more out of each
sale - and that's ensuring somebody who comes in for an upgrade pays more than
last time, sticks a few more accessories in the pack, and clicks to bump up
the iCloud size (or maybe you think they've decided they've got enough, screw
the shareholders and are about to start 'giving back' to their users)

------
ghaff
As in the article my main gripe is the iCloud storage. As you buy more Apple
devices your free storage allotment doesn’t scale up accordingly.

~~~
oneplane
Well, the free storage is for your account, not your device, right?

I suppose it would be nice if you get extra free monthly storage per device
you use your account with. Maybe a model where the amount of devices you have
simply multiplies the free storage baseline.

~~~
ghaff
Yes, it’s for your account. But as you add devices you want to back up it
pretty much pushes you into a paid tier. Hence the fuming. That will be $1000
_plus_ another $5 per month.

~~~
walterbell
Could you use a NAS or external drive on laptop for backup? An 8TB external
drive costs $200.

[https://github.com/libimobiledevice/libimobiledevice](https://github.com/libimobiledevice/libimobiledevice)

~~~
lostlogin
Photos. If you have a lot of photos they won’t fit in your Mac easily.
Photos.app doesn’t work when on a NAS (cloud sync won’t go unless it’s open,
and multiple users can’t access a NAS DB without issues). Apple doesn’t seem
to handle family albums at all without either sharing an iCloud account or
manually sending each photo to a shared album. Eww. I’d love a way of having
all users photos uploaded to a cloud then synced to my NAS, but I’ve yet to
find a good solution.

~~~
walterbell
Take a look at Photosync, solves all those problems.

[https://www.photosync-app.com](https://www.photosync-app.com)

~~~
lostlogin
Thanks - I’ve got that open in a tab already and was reading up on it. It’s
nice to have a recommendation for it.

------
jmull
A thread on Reddit complaining about Apple dongles!?!

Big news indeed.

------
perpetualcrayon
(One of the wealthiest companies in the world) + (increases prices) = not
caring about its loyal customers.

~~~
Filligree
Why would it? That's not evidence of a trust, nor is there any legal
requirement to pass on _any_ amount of profit.

