
Police search homes of Zwiebelfreunde board members and OpenLab in Augsburg - meskio
https://www.ccc.de/en/updates/2018/hausdurchsuchungen-bei-vereinsvorstanden-der-zwiebelfreunde-und-im-openlab-augsburg
======
whyever
I found this part the most disturbing:

> While searching the premises of the board members in Augsburg, Jena,
> Dresden, and Berlin, the police – on their own accord –decided to extend the
> search to premises also used by members of the CCC: the OpenLab in Augsburg.
> Here the officers were confronted with hackers in their natural habitat:
> substances to clean and etch circuit boards as well as hair bleach. After
> interpreting the contents of a whiteboard as a bomb making manual, the
> officers then went on to accuse random people present at the hackerspace of
> plotting a bombing attack. Three people were arrested on the spot and the
> hackerspace was subsequently searched without a court order and without any
> witnesses.

So working on circuit boards is being construed as plotting a bombing attack?
Really?

~~~
Tepix
Apparently there was a chemical formula for an explosive on a whiteboard.

~~~
Doxin
So claims the police. I don't know about you but I don't think the average
police officer is going to be able to distinguish between any old chemistry
and explosive chemistry.

------
blattimwind
The gist of it:

Someone did something probably illegal and put a @riseup mail in as the
contact info. Police looked at riseup (Not-in-Germany) and found some people
(In-Germany) forwarding donation money to riseup. Police and state prosecutor
somehow conclude that these donations might be relevant and seizes them (and
the usual bycatch).

\--

Now my commentary: On the face of it this seems overblown and rather out of
proportion. To me it looks like some AG was looking for an excuse to raid
these left-wing organizations. It doesn't have to be that way, but I have a
hard time imagining how some leftist hateblog I've never heard of before
justifies such a large scale raid of (presumably) at best tangentially related
entities. It's a somewhat different story of course if it turns out that the
backers of the blog have actually been raided as well as part of these raids.

~~~
throwwwafgk
Whatever a "leftist hateblog" (!) might be, that description doesn't seem to
be fitting here.

~~~
blattimwind
I'm referring to the blog which is said to be the reason for all this. The
blog is named "AUGSBURG für Krawalltouristen" and has the tagline "Den AfD-
Bundesparteitag am 30.06./01.07.2018 angreifen!". Translated: "Augsburg for
Hooligans: Attacking the AfD party conference on the 30.06/01.07.2018".

"Krawalltouristen" specifically is a term that came up for the first time, I
think, with the G20 protests last year. Hooligans might not be the most
accurate translation; it essentially means people who travel somewhere
specifically to participate in riots/vandalism/looting under a political
pretence.

If you know a more fitting description for a blog like this, please do
comment.

~~~
throwwwafgk
So the purpose of the blog is to inform about a political protest. I still
think it's misleading to refer to it as hateblog, even if the organisers are
militant or radical.

~~~
yorwba
The blog doesn't just "inform about political protest", it explicitly
advocates for violence. Their primary motivation seems to be hate of the
political right. As a leftist myself, I think that "leftist hateblog" is a
pretty accurate description.

~~~
woah
We can get into word definition games here, but “hate” generally refers to a
desire for the extermination or oppression of a group of people based on
personal characteristics like race or ancestry. Conflating “hate” with any
call for political violence is disingenuous and a sloppy attempt at bad faith
rhetoric.

Do you consider the New York Times a “hateblog” for their endorsement of
political violence against the former government of Iraq?

~~~
wu-ikkyu
>Do you consider the New York Times a “hateblog” for their endorsement of
political violence against the former government of Iraq?

No, that's war mongering/yellow journalism by a mass media company, far worse
and more destructive than a "hate blog"

------
donquichotte
Fun fact: the police found a "3d printed, bomb shaped object" and put it into
an evidence bag with the label "offence: causing an explosive blast". The
object can be seen in action here:

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g2HDoyKE2W8](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g2HDoyKE2W8)

~~~
singularity2001
to be more precise, police identified it as "presumed model of an atomic
bomb".

But the criminal offence is spot on:
[http://cdn1.spiegel.de/images/image-1310464-860_poster_16x9-...](http://cdn1.spiegel.de/images/image-1310464-860_poster_16x9-kdvc-1310464.jpg)

~~~
ckastner
Incredible. It is obvious that they will not be able to show intent beyond
reasonable doubt as to this "crime" (they even acknowledge it is just a
model), proceeding regardless is just farcical.

Amusingly enough, they labeled it "mutmaßliches Modell einer Atombombe"
(presumptive model of an atomic bomb) with the crime being "Herbeiführen einer
Sprengstoffexplosion" (causing an explosion), but the relevant norm [1]
explicitly excludes nuclear explosions.

[1]
[https://dejure.org/gesetze/StGB/308.html](https://dejure.org/gesetze/StGB/308.html)

~~~
blattimwind
There's actually StGB § 307 specifically for nuclear explosions.

~~~
ethbro
Not sure when it was put into law, but Germany has hosted tactical US nuclear
weapons since the Cold War.

------
khabaal
Its especially chilling, because in germany, we dont have the food of the
poisonous tree doctrine. So even if the police searches those places illegaly,
if they find something else while conducting the search, lets say small amount
of drugs, they will prosecute you for that.

~~~
ethbro
Small note, it's usually rendered as "fruit" of the poisonous tree.

[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fruit_of_the_poisonous_tree](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fruit_of_the_poisonous_tree)

~~~
jwilk
Non-mobile link:

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fruit_of_the_poisonous_tree](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fruit_of_the_poisonous_tree)

~~~
L_226
FYI I made a small chrome extension to auto-redirect links like this:
[https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/demobile/poikbhnlb...](https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/demobile/poikbhnlblolailelfnhbdifkdhhmikm)

~~~
jwilk
I looked at the source, and to be frank, it's awful:

    
    
      var newUrl = details.url.replace('.m.', '.').replace('/m.', '/').replace('/mobile.', '/');
    

This could easily break legitimate URLs.

~~~
L_226
I absolutely agree, I'm not a JS developer. One day I'll fix it...

------
majewsky
After my initial outrage, I calmed down and looked at this dryly. What if the
main issue is that the prosecutors just do not have appropriate mental models
of hackers?

The crucial step is that they wanted to get ahold of Riseup, a mail provider
(and hence, in their view, a commercial entity). Then they find those German
people (whom they _can_ get ahold of) who collect money for Riseup. I find it
very likely that they just _could not imagine_ someone collecting money for a
commercial entity without being financially and personally intertwined with
said entity.

For example, if you see someone collecting money for Coca-Cola, wouldn't you
think that they're paid by Coca-Cola, no matter how much they insisted they're
"just fans"?

(Note: This argument only concerns the original warrant. What the policemen
did at the hackerspachackerspace was just preposterous.)

~~~
phicoh
If you are directly or indirectly paid by a company, then it is unlikely that
you have sufficient amount of operational information at home to warrant
searching your home.

Worse, if you suspect that somebody's role is related to fund raising then it
very unlikely that that person has detailed operational information.

To the extent that the police is aware that riseup is a US-based organisation,
then any kind of forced cooperation the German police would get from the
people outside the US would unlikely to have any effect, because a US-based
organisation is likely to only respond to requests from a US police
organisation.

So this kind of action can only be explained by criminal carelessness or a
goal to intimidate.

------
niklasd
A bit of perspective for non-Germans: The raid was ordered from Bavaria, a
state in Germany which is traditionally governed by the conservative CSU
party, which is currently also in the (international) headlines for the
ongoing immigration fight, since they are part of the federal government with
Merkel (they are taking a very though standpoint on immigration).

Just recently this party introduced a new police law in Bavaria which is
considered to be the toughest in Germany, making it considerably more easy for
Police to read your mail, block your bank account, to surveil you etc.

While this is not directly related to the CCC raid, the raid was ordered by
the Munich Attorney General. For Germans, it is not surprising that such an
act comes from the Bavarian justice system.

~~~
Tomte
And Munich is traditionally governed by the center-left SPD.

I find your attempt to inject party politics in this a diversion.

Just because the state government is well to the right and turning populist,
it doesn't mean that the independent judiciary is just the same.

~~~
TomTomXC
In germany the ministry of justice (state, not city) is authorized to give
orders to the prosecutors, allowing for a very direct influence of party
politics onto the judiciary system.

~~~
Tomte
That's correct, but it happens extremely rarely (the well-publicized! incident
with netzpolitik.org and the Mollath case are the only ones that comes
immediately to mind) and leads to massive criticism in the press.

------
Rjevski
Not an expert in German legislation, but is this even legal? Seems like those
people weren't convicted nor even suspected of crimes.

I hope the victims fight back and get adequate compensation.

~~~
Tomte
Of course it is.

Raids can also be at witnesses' places if it is necessary to get the evidence.

Otherwise I'd simply stow the bodies in my friends' cellars.

~~~
radisb
Help me understand as I am not living in Germany:

Authorities can search and seize property of any civilian without a warrant if
said civilian is just a witness? If yes, then who decides and how is it
decided that someone is a witness?

If for example I happen to stand in front of my window and witness a crime
being committed in the street, they could search my house without any consent
or warrant?

~~~
maze-le
>> If for example I happen to stand in front of my window and witness a crime
being committed in the street,

That is probably not an instance, where a search warrant would be reasonable.
But if for example you denounce someone for embezzlement, and during the
investigation it comes to light that you have profited from this act of
embezzlement yourself, a search warrant would be given (against you) despite
of you beeing a witness.

>> they could search my house without any consent or warrant?

They do need a warrant, handed out by a judge. The idea is, that a judge gets
a request for a warrant and decides if it is reasonable or not. The problem
is, that the judiciary is so overwrought, that almost any judge will decide in
favor of a warrant, even if its not reasonable.

I am almost certain, that this warrant would not be reasonable if a judge with
time had thought about what actually happens here.

~~~
phicoh
Given that searching somebody's house is a serious invasion of privacy, there
should a very good reason why this search is required. I.e., if somebody is a
witness only very loosely connected to a case, then it is better just ask that
person to provide the required testimony.

So a judge who makes mistakes like this, should be kicked out. Of course, that
will never happen. I'm not sure if there is even a reasonable procedure to
file a complaint and get such a judge kicked out.

~~~
namibj
The thing he would get thrown out would likely be "Amtsmissbrauch", but that
is a rare occurence.

------
itchyjunk
Is there an Electronic Frontier Foundation equivalent in Germany? If not, what
stops police from conducting searches like this in future? (If this can even
be shown as illegal in a court.) I doubt individuals or even small
organization can properly fight legal battles.

~~~
Mashimo
>Is there an Electronic Frontier Foundation equivalent in Germany?

The CCC is a bit like that. And in this raid they searched offices that where
also used by CCC. And they do have the resources and willingness to fight
this.

------
DyslexicAtheist
wow they had chemicals (for 3d printing) and they were building a bomb
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g2HDoyKE2W8](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g2HDoyKE2W8)
/s

~~~
dangerbird2
They could shoot someone's eye out!

------
justinclift
Ugh. That confiscated equipment... much of it that gets returned (eventually)
won't be suitable for using on Tor/Tails development. There's no telling what
changes will have been done to it. :(

------
fcDVb7R6
This reminds of an era which we will soon see around the world. Today fighting
for your privacy is not a choice, it is a need.

~~~
stuaxo
John Titor?

------
fcDVb7R6
This seems a malicious ruse to intimidate hacker activism

------
Tepix
There were additional police raids carried out in Dortmund, Germany last
night. They were targeting a server hosted at Wissenschaftsladen (free.de) but
ended up searching other unrelated offices, including the rooms of CCC
Dortmund.

[https://heise.de/-4100194](https://heise.de/-4100194)

------
yAnonymous
The CCC are in no position to complain. They have become too political and
openly support left extremist groups. They allow talks by Antifa members and
they have Antifa flags in their centers [1]. These are people who threaten and
practice violence for political reasons and are watched by state police.

[1]
[https://twitter.com/DandelionInaBox/status/90147462783431884...](https://twitter.com/DandelionInaBox/status/901474627834318848)

~~~
klez
> They have become too political

Become? The CCC has always been a political organization.

------
oblio
For someone completely out of the loop, since this jumped to #1 on HN:

What's Zweibelfreunde?

What's OpenLab?

Why did the police raid them?

Why should I care?

And more importantly, why does HN care so much, apparently? :)

~~~
kevingrahl
Read the article goddamnit this isn’t reddit..

~~~
oblio
I clicked the link and it was in German... I guess they changed it. They've
also changed the HN title at least a few times.

------
zorkw4rg
There are also a ton of websites from german nazis (I mean common folk nazis,
not institutional nazis like the CSU) that use webhosting in the USA to
circumvent the more restrictive free-speech in germany. Not like thats pursued
of course.

Unfortunately a common sentiment in germany is that left and right extremism
is equally pernicious, or even worse people tend to be more annoyed by the
left burning luxury cars than they are with nazis burning refugees.

