
What happened to all the non-programmers? (2015) - harporoeder
https://www.benkuhn.net/nonprog/
======
hprotagonist
Antidotes include:

\- join the YMCA or other community gym:

 _It’s true that some of my experience could be related to Oakland as a whole,
which is an exceptionally diverse city. But I’ve visited other gyms and
workout facilities in my area, and none of them look anything like the YMCA.
They all lack the wide range of age, race, gender, and ability. I’ve also
visited YMCAs in other states, most recently in Michigan and North Carolina,
and they had a very similar vibe to my own. I’ve come to conclude that
whatever I lose out on from not going to an upscale or hyperspecialized gym,
the YMCA makes up for, because it gives me a much broader sense of community
and allows me to interact with people—in real life, no less—who I otherwise
wouldn’t. Does this solve all of the world’s problems? Of course not. But I
think it’s a small step in the right direction._

[https://www.outsideonline.com/2403867/ymca-local-gyms-
good-w...](https://www.outsideonline.com/2403867/ymca-local-gyms-good-world)

\- spend more time in civic spaces like libraries and public parks. Or just
being outside in public with an open mind.

\- speaking of civic involvement, active participation in your local
government will for sure broaden your social circles.

\- religious organizations -- at least, good ones -- are cross-sectional in
this way too. Quoting MLK Jr, "... any [church] that violates the "whosoever
will, let him come" doctrine is a dead, cold thing, and nothing but a little
social club with a thin veneer of religiosity."

\- community work, like habitat for humanity or the like, will put you in a
new sphere of folks too.

------
dijit
I'm glad I read the article, I thought this was about the death of sysadmins
at first glance.

Speaking to the content though; and it may seem dismissive or odd but: I tend
to make friends with random people I meet. For instance going the extra mile
to be friendly with service workers (remembering names, asking about family
and following up later, generally having good memory for birthdays etc) has
landed me a fair crop of friends.

People are rarely in the service industry long and they tend to be wildly
different, person-to-person, and they have extended friend groups too which if
you get very friendly may end up increasing your circles even further.

It sounds weird typing this out, like I consider them some kind of resource to
be tapped, but what I'm trying to get across is to be kind to people and
friendship will happen. I've never gone looking for friends and almost my
entire friend group (outside of IRC) has nothing to do with tech.

Some of the people I was just friendly with and became friends with are now
personal trainers, nutritionists, nurses and architects. It's almost a problem
because we have very little in common, we can only share lamentation about
things like open offices and the country we live in. :P

~~~
dctas
This may be my lack of social skills speaking, but would you mind sharing a
little more information on how this works in practice?

In general when I interact with service workers, we tend to be focused on the
service at hand - there isn't very much spare time for making friends. And I
can't help but feel they are being paid to be friendly. (I am not from the US,
if this makes any difference)

Also, how much time would you say you spend with new friends? I find that
between work, family, personal projects, and a stable of few but close
friends, my time is pretty well spoken for. But the idea of having more
friends is certainly a nice one.

~~~
dijit
Jesus wept, who downvotes legit questions?

I'm more than happy to answer, but it might sound sociopathic in isolation and
without context. Also I used "service workers" as an example of people I
interact with daily, but it can be anyone really and my point was more
general.

Regarding my service worker friends specifically (usually they work at my
local food places): if I go places more than once I'll ask how things are that
day, if it was busy, if there's any time that is overly annoying, basic small
talk stuff.

Maybe another day I'll ask their name, but I must have already asked a
question on another day, so that a question like this doesn't come out of the
blue.. it's a natural progression, and this is so that I can greet them by
name next time I see them.

After I'm talking with names then I'll ask weird questions like if they had a
favourite customer, maybe make a cheesy joke about it not being me because I'm
annoying with questions.

Maybe later I'll ask if they have any family in the area, or something stupid
about star signs. If their birth month is coming up I'll comment on it and
make a mental note to bring it up later to figure out their birthday and get
them some small gift.

Even later, if I have an event planned or something I'll invite them out- I
always offer 2 or 3 different times/things before I stop offering, when/if
they reject it can be a reason to ask more pointed questions about what they
normally do as activity; the last time you offer you can suggest that they
show you what they're interested in or something.

It helps that I genuinely care for the people I interact with, I really
consider everyone a friend I haven't gotten to know yet.

I know it sounds formulaic, but it's not and I'm just recollecting.

As for hanging out, maybe once every 2 weeks? not sure, certainly not often. I
have a girlfriend who is very demanding of my time.

And, for context, I live in Sweden, so- also not US. :)

~~~
alexpetralia
This is awesome. For my part, I've generally set the goal on "Can I make them
laugh?" A genuine belly laugh. In order to do so, you often have to build some
camaraderie. You also have to be creative to discover what discursions may
make them laugh. It's really been enjoyable for me, and hopefully others as
well!

------
war1025
> \- are under 35

> \- live in San Francisco, Berkeley or Oakland

With those criteria, assuming you are in the tech field, you're probably
making an order of magnitude more than your age-group peers.

It seems entirely reasonable that you wouldn't bump into the non-tech crowd
since they can't afford the same lifestyle as you.

Over here in the Midwest, software jobs pay much more in line with other
college-educated professions.

As a result, I'm the only programmer in my friend group, and most of the
people make the same ballpark of money as I do.

~~~
throw51319
How much does a software engineer make in the midwest?

~~~
war1025
I'm making right around $100k. I believe that's a pretty average market rate
for the area, but I really don't know.

I see a lot of job listings in the $80-$120k range.

~~~
throw51319
How many years experience? Senior?

That's pretty solid... I guess would be comparable to like $150k in a place
like nyc?

~~~
war1025
Yea I think generally they are advertised as Senior level roles. I have ~10
years experience.

------
EVdotIO
Monoculture basically just means upper middle class men in tech coupled with
the argument of implicit negation that less diverse == bad. This self
flagellation from the PMC and tech is just really... I don't know what to make
of it, but I would say is harmful. If you really want to break out of your
professional cohort, pick up a hobby which requires other people like
sports/music/civic activities/religion/car meets/quilting/neighborhood
gardening/whatever. You'll find most of those folk tend to be somewhat like
minded as well, but how we spend our free time basically boils down "doing
what I enjoy doing around others that respect me on some level". You do you,
and let's not get too caught up with having the correct friends.

~~~
selestify
Isn’t the author’s point that the hobbies he picks are also filled with people
from the same profession?

He could pick a hobby he doesn’t enjoy, but that would defeat the point of a
hobby...

~~~
selfinvariant
I'm wondering how much of it is a form of filtering based on a social bias.
There are a lot of hobbies in the world (that the author would potentially
enjoy), but the ones that first come to mind are ones that have an examples
nearby (e.g. my teammate Dan mentioned he went rock climbing on Sunday)

------
MattGaiser
In an Internet world, you can find friends who are a perfect fit, so you might
never need to find others.

I was visiting my grandparents a couple weeks ago and they were baffled at how
young people never know their neighbours. And it is true. I know the one
neighbour that has lived to the right of my parents house. Nowhere else that I
have lived have I even known the names of the people across the hall.

I tend to just have 6 friends at any given time who consume 3 hours a day in
total. There isn’t room for more people without sacrificing other
conversations. And yes, most are software engineers/otherwise in tech.

~~~
m463
I just remember the "7 habits" progression:

1\. dependent

2\. independent

3\. interdependent

I think when people are young, they're trying really hard to leave #1 behind
and be #2... to the exclusion of #3.

#3 might be where you meet your neighbors.

------
wakawaka1
>” In fact, just the fact that I’m interested in doing sports for leisure is
associated with class, since it’s not something that would be so easy for,
say, manual laborers or shift workers.”

I think the bias here is the opposite: the author is politically biased to
believe this “classism struggle” somehow doesn’t enable manual Labors to play
sports?

I think the author should visit the developing world more frequently to
realize how common futbol is here, for example.

I’ve been invited to pickup futbol (soccer) games in Mexico and Panama. From
what I can tell, it’s a sport played around the world, including in the
poorest parts of Africa, Asia, and Latin America.

This is all too frequent—- a politically biased author is unable to face their
own biases and instead attempts to enforce them?

Yes, there are socioeconomic differences between world regions. But that
doesn’t preclude people from enjoying sports.

Not everything is a consequence of neomarxist political thought. Perhaps
explore the world, before making biased presuppositions, author.

~~~
kinkrtyavimoodh
> I think the bias here is the opposite: the author is politically biased to
> believe this “classism struggle” somehow doesn’t enable manual Labors to
> play sports?

It's funny coz statistically speaking these "manual laborers" are likely to
kick the author's ass in whatever sport he wants to do for leisure.

------
toyg
Lol, I wish I had that problem. Where I live, it's finding like-minded geeks
that requires actual effort. IT people are largely social pariahs, unless they
are on the business side of things. And it's really been the case for most of
my life, over two different countries.

It's just that the Bay Area is an economic district, that's all. There are
districts in Europe where everyone is somehow involved in making pipes and
faucets, others where everyone works in the clothing industry, even some where
everyone is into the business of fantasy miniatures....

SF "makes bits", so chances are that if you throw a stone there you'll hit 3
developers, 2 "product guys", and 4 devops (insert a basement-dweller-
sysadmin-joke here). I actually found it pretty exciting the few times I was
over there - a land where nerds don't have to be ashamed of "being in IT"!
Talking coding and gadgets over dinner is socially accepted! How refreshing!

Obviously there is a degree of class selection in place, but it was always
such. Did your parents know a lot of homeless people or fruit-pickers? I
wouldn't think so.

~~~
BerislavLopac
> even some where everyone is into the business of fantasy miniatures

Would that be Nottingham? ;)

~~~
toyg
It would ;)

------
jimrandomh
The 10% estimate is likely too low. Looking around my social circle, I see:

* A grad student neuroscientist (which actually means "Matlab programmer")

* A statistician (which actually means "R programmer")

* Various other kinds of scientists and mathematicians, whose day-to-day work is actually programming

* A rabbi (who is applying to programming boot camps)

* A number of unemployed people, trying to learn to program in various ways (from self-study to degree programs to bootcamps)

Most of these would not be counted, but if I talked to them at a dinner party,
I would count them as programmers.

~~~
in3d
If the author added “male” to the criteria, the percentage would be something
like 18%.

------
poulsbohemian
My brother-in-law is a plumber. Guess what? All of his buddies are in the
trades. My mom was a school teacher. Guess what? All her friends were school
teachers. When I was a software developer, I ran in circles with a lot of
other tech people. Now that I'm in real estate, we hang out with a lot of
other real estate agents (especially given that my partner was formerly in
real estate and all her closest friends were in the business too).

Point being - for a good many people, given well-documented challenges of
making adult friends, our work / industry creates a natural social circle.

Our best friends from outside those work circles came from when she ran an
AirBnB back in the day and met people from all over the world.

~~~
hinkley
Half of my friends are landscapers. Why? Hobbies and volunteer work.

A friend of mine was best friends with someone she sold a piece of crafting
equipment to. Showed up and didn't leave for four hours.

If all you do is eat, sleep, and drink software, then you aren't going to know
anybody outside of software. It's one of the things we mean when we say that
doing software as a profession _and_ your main hobby can be harmful.

Doing other things doesn't mean you never work on software outside of work. It
means you do it when you have other things sorted out.

------
Barrin92
> _I’m barely 150 pounds and don’t like traumatic brain injuries. Preferably a
> more elegant sport that doesn’t require a bunch of awkward equipment. Maybe
> Ultimate or rock climbing– Wait, crap._

hit the gym and do some weight-lifting, solve two problems at once. Also just
go out and hit the bars. (okay maybe not the greatest advice right now).
Unlike the author my parents were solidly working class so I always was very
aware of straddling two very different social circles, between academia and
tech work and the people I grew up with. There's no reason to live in either
bubble really and in a big city it's not that hard to have a healthy social
circle, just requires leaving your comfort zone.

~~~
selestify
As someone who has this problem to a lesser extent than the author, the
question is _how_ to have that healthy social circle.

I’ve never met anyone at a gym or bar before. Other than hitting on girls at
bars, I’ve never seen anyone else in my social circle meet anybody else at any
gyms or bars. I’ve certainly never seen anyone approach me at a gym or a bar.
Has your experience been much different?

I don’t mind leaving my comfort zone, but to do what, exactly?

~~~
LandR
> I’ve never met anyone at a gym or bar before.

Me neither, gym seems an especially weird place to meet people. Aren't most
people at gyms just trying to get their workout in and get out? I can't
imagine trying to strike up conversation at the gym. Feel like it would be
like trying to start a conversation on public transport. Another big no no.

~~~
toyg
_> Aren't most people at gyms just trying to get their workout in and get
out?_

This is what I always thought too, but I've been told there is a very sizeable
amount of people who actually go there to hook up. Still not a "make friends"
situation though.

------
screye
My solution was to find an international/group home. Your roommates friends
become your friends and suddenly you are in a diverse group.

Over the last year I stayed with 9 people in 1 house. 2 school teachers, 1 in
CSR, 1 lecturer, 1 grad student, 3 in tech (and only 1 in big-tech: Me) and 1
in pharmacy.

To-be-fair, I was in Boston . But, my peers ended up in far more homogeneous
peer groups when they just stayed with people they knew or other 1/2 random
strangers.

Pick-up sports or Adult-sports-leagues have worked well for this purpose too.
I play(ed) soccer, but Basketball or the like would also work.

Lastly, just date someone not-in-tech. Dating apps are great for this. If it
turns into a relationship, your partner will make sure their friends become
your friends. It is a story as old as time. Although dating-outside-tech can
be tricky for some. Not every group is as open to brutally honest and
logic-1st/ empathy-2nd style of communication in tech.

------
davidbanham
Try volunteering. I had this exact conversation yesterday on a firetruck on
the way back from a hazard reduction burn, that one of the things we all
valued most about our volunteering experience was that we were exposed to
people we wouldn't normally hang out with in our professional or social
circles.

That said, on this particular truck three people out of the crew of four were
programmers. We thankfully pulled up the conversation about the merits of
Jupyter Notebooks for BI tooling before the fourth crew member, who is
studying forensics, got so bored her eyes rolled right out of her head.

------
LurkerAtTheGate
Clearly not considered: new acquaintances may be filtering out the author. I
was in SF less than a week and found locals were friendlier if they didn't
know I worked in tech, doubly so with the Bay area natives.

If you don't want to be pigeon-holed as the stereotypical Tech worker ('the
ones ruining SF'), then show you have other interests and qualities. Author
has done a fine job of defining the edges of that particular mould. The fix is
the same as the other comments - break the mould, get outside the comfort
zone.

------
altitudinous
Hacker News (or indeed anywhere online) is probably not going to be the space
to resolve this issue! Those who weren't at the dinner party are not here to
provide insight!

------
thekashifmalik
> "Obviously not football, since I’m barely 150 pounds and don’t like
> traumatic brain injuries."

That's exactly something a programmer (or an academic) would say. I box and I
hear the same words from my coworkers.

If you stopped treating your brain as the most important fucking organ in your
body (not that it isn't), you might open yourself up to hobbies that emphasize
other aspects of your person. You would probably meet new kinds of people in
those activities.

~~~
porknubbins
The football comment struck me as wildly out of touch. In my entire life I’ve
never heard of any organized adult football- its obviously way too dangerous
and inconvenient to be anything but a pro or school sport.

~~~
derwiki
It's generally "flag" football--no hard contact. A quick search reveals many
leagues in San Francisco.

~~~
paulcole
Do you think the comment you replied to was about flag football?

------
prettycolors
Do a combat sport. I've been doing various combat sports for 20 years now and
I hardly ever run into people in tech. Plus, it's incredibly fun, useful
(self-defense) and interesting; there is a lot of strategy and creativity
involved.

Jiu Jitsu is super popular most everywhere now, but Judo is really fun too, as
well as wrestling. Striking sports are great as well, but you can't really go
live in practice in a striking sport. You can spar in striking at 50% a few
times a week (and that's pushing it), but you can roll at 100% in Jiu Jitsu up
to every day. I always found the latter much more fun.

------
ck425
I get round this by doing amateur theatre. Most of my friends are from theatre
and they're a varied bunch. Doctors, Teachers, Vets and Lawyers are the most
common professions but also lots of random jobs such as train Conductor, HR
manager, entrepreneur, music instructor, charity worker and marketing execs.

There are a few techies but it's rare, and those that are tend more towards
management type roles that IC engineers.

Unfortunately theatre is likely the last industry that'll recover from covid
but once it does I thoroughly recommend it.

~~~
toyg
I have childhood friends whose personal life was literally changed (for the
better) by theatre. For some of them, their "real job" is now basically a side
activity to their theatre stuff. But it takes a certain type of personality, I
think. Actors can be super-annoying to me.

~~~
ck425
That pretty much describes me to a t. Discovering theatre was the best thing
that ever happened to me and I absolutely work so I can go do theatre in my
spare time. I aim to FIRE so I can go to drama school for fun.

------
ummonk
Does he hang out in the east bay? Oakland / Berkeley is way less techie than
SF so combining the three cities would yield artificially low stats.

------
bsder
Well, it sounds like the author is 1) single and 2) above 30.

That's going to screen most "families" out of your social circle and that's a
_LOT_ of people. Most folks (tech and non-tech) start getting pressured to
have families by the age of 30.

However, the whole premise of the article is that only being surrounded by
techies is _bad_. Why?

Would he feel the same if he was only surrounded by musicians?

------
jpzisme
I found that doing activities not related to nerd culture really helps you
connect with non-programmers. Dancing, sports, volunteering (aside from Code
for America, which is great, but filled with programmers) all help.

Also, regularly socializing with non-programmers seems to be a check against
some of the anti-social habits we're all prone to pick up

~~~
tayo42
> activities not related to nerd culture

maybe, counter intuitively I was playing mtg in SF and didnt run into many
programmers.

------
pvaldes
There is a definitive social glue that will introduce yourself to lots of
people with a wide spectrum of different interests and is a crazy, always
smiling, thing called dog

Dogs are NOT for everybody. Having a dog is a 10-15 years commitment and
shouldn't be done by impulse, specially if you work from home. Could bark at
4AM, the owner will need to remove a lot of s*t and wake up early each day of
the weeks, (Sundays also) and definitely can damage seriously your capability
to focus in remote working from home.

But nothing prevents you to volunteer to walk a pooch or just borrow one once
a month from a friend or grandma to go out and take a walk. A friendly middle
sized dog will love to tell everybody how awesome is their father. Is the
second best visiting card that a human can show after babies (Money would be
the third).

------
Haydos585x2
It might be that I live on the other side of the world to the author but this
hasn't really been a problem for me. I've been a developer for 10 years or so
and find that in Brazilian jiu jitsu there's a pretty even split between
university/not-university educated people resulting in a social circle that is
pretty diverse, at least from a formal education point of view. In my case the
city is somewhat expensive to live in so most of the people that can afford
hobbies in this area will earn a similar income and have similar schedules.
The article also felt like there was a weird bit of class focus and as other
commenters have said the author needs to expand their thoughts on what sports
are available and the lives other "non-tech" people live.

------
geogra4
It's odd because I have never really felt this living outside of sf. my
personal circles include lots of other professionals like doctors, lawyers,
consultants, accountants, (non software) engineers, etc. Don't these people
exist in San Francisco too?

------
pmiller2
I'm also a programmer, but I have quite a few friends who are very different
from me in a lot of ways. For instance, my main hobby brings me into contact
with a lot of people who are 20+ years older than me.

I did not engineer this, nor do I have any particular interest in knowing a
bunch of older, white men. It just happened that way, because my hobby is
popular with this particular demographic. If the author is bothered by their
lack of non-programmer friends, surely the easiest way to correct that would
be to find a hobby that attracts a different sort of folk. That might not be a
viable solution right now due to COVID restrictions, but we're not going to
all be stuck in our homes forever.

------
topkai22
I was at my engineering college reunion around the time this piece was
written. It was shocking the number of people that had pivoted from chemistry,
physics, biology, or engineering into "software engineering", including people
who hold PhDs in non-CS fields. It does feel like the programming profession
has been sucking up talent left and right.

I live in a non-coastal tech center and have the opposite problem- I love my
friends, but almost none of my social circle programs for a living. It would
be nice to be able to talk tech more outside of dedicated meetups or
hackathons.

------
jayd16
I guess the author didn't keep up with anyone interesting from high school or
college?

And I guess they don't talk to anyone outside of engineering at their
workplace? No HR, no producers, no designers?

(Also dinner party? ...ah March 2015)

~~~
selestify
Not the author, but:

No, nobody else moved to the same city I moved to, so even if I kept up with
classmates remotely, it wouldn’t be the same as in-person interactions.

And also no, I never really interact professionally with any of those other
roles at my company. And even if I did, they’re still working inside the tech
industry, so that’s not really breaking out of the bubble all that much. Plus,
I don’t hang out with most people I work with anyways, nor do they hang out
with each other.

I’m guessing your experience been quite different?

------
sokoloff
I played adult baseball for a few years. Incredibly enjoyable and kept me
grounded with a bunch of people from all walks of life. We had a doctor, a
programmer (me), an assistant prof, a plumber, a couple of carpenters, an auto
body tech, a DJ, a security guard, and a couple guys who filtered in and out
where I didn’t know their jobs. It wasn’t gender balanced at all, of course.

Adult softball gives a slightly less diverse in some ways but adds gender
diversity. Neither is particularly dangerous among sports. (I’d put them as
less risk than hockey or soccer and way less than football.)

------
tylerjwilk00
Interesting read. Honestly I never took stock of my "social network
occupational diversity" but after reading this I feel lucky. Almost no one in
my circle of friends shares the same industry, let alone job title. It has a
wide range of age groups -1 decade / \+ 2 decades which may explain it. I'm
rural so age isn't very homogenized and any local bars or clubs have a wide
spread. We don't talk much about work... I'm now wondering if this is because
our professions don't overlap.

------
babesh
It’s because the author isn’t an independent, rational thinker and still
hasn’t realized that.

You aren’t a slave to your current social setting. For instance, sports. There
are far more than football and ultimate. Kind of irrational to stop at 2?

Here’s some help. Sailing. Soccer. Baseball. Softball. Tennis. Golf.
Basketball. Table tennis. Badminton. Rock climbing. Bicycling. Trail running.
Cricket. Swimming. Diving. Fishing. Roller blading. Dancing. Martial arts.
Boxing. Bowling.

The author doesn’t realize that football even at 150lbs is dangerous. Try flag
football.

~~~
roflc0ptic
“The author doesn’t realize that football... is dangerous.” You really missed
his meaning when he said “I don’t like traumatic brain injuries.” What he
meant was that he had no interest in playing football because it’s dangerous.

~~~
babesh
Contact football even if restricted to people 150lb and below is STILL
dangerous. It’s not the weight disparity which is partly how I read that. It’s
that the force that even 120lb people generate is enough to cause concussions
amongst people the same weight.

After college a bunch of lightweight kids from high school would get together
and play football. Two straight meetings ending in concussions ended that. We
were virtually all less than 150lb.

~~~
strken
The 150lb thing was pretty clearly because he thought his weight would be a
disadvantage. Like saying he wouldn't play basketball because he was 5'4" and
had a bad knee, the weight and the danger weren't related to each other, they
were different factors in the final decision not to play.

~~~
babesh
If that is the case, that just shows that the author is on very tall stack of
misconceptions. No one plays full contact football recreationally. It’s
completely too dangerous. People mostly play flag football. Also most sports
have leagues grouped by size or ability. The author dismissed the sport out of
hand with wrong information.

------
dang
Discussed at the time:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9146034](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9146034)

------
ezoe
I regularly go to the climbing gym. I couldn't help noticing that there are so
many programmers in the climbing gym. People talk about programming related
topic all the time.

I also went to a dancing school for a year, but I hardly saw any programmer
there.

I also like snowboarding but it's hard to interact with people around you so I
don't know.

Outside of sports, I like board games and there are more programmers than
average.

------
lcc
Maybe don't rule sports out entirely. I accidentally joined a hockey team full
of lawyers in Oakland. I guess similar people tend to clump even outside of
the tech bubble; it's easiest to recruit people in your network. They would
get their summer interns to fill in if we were short players.

I also know several teachers who rock climb though of course there are plenty
of techies too.

------
loopz
If you have to whip up R to confirm your social immaturity, what hope is there
to break out of the shell and experience life's diversity? But you can be glad
for the friends you have anyways.

------
Animats
I never felt that. Few of my friends are programmers. Horse trainer, corporate
lawyer, landlord, city building inspector, medical illustrator.

------
macspoofing
Join a church (or synagogue or mosque). Secularism has a societal cost, one of
which is the loss of community institutions like churches, where you have a
wide variety of people, from different classes, mixing in a common space.

Also ... start a family.

~~~
WillDaSilva
Your suggestion to join a church doesn't really make sense unless you're
proselytizing. If they don't believe in any religions, then they wouldn't join
a church no matter how good the social benefits might be. If they do believe
in some religion, they have probably already joined a church.

~~~
jagraff
Plenty of atheists go to church. Participating in a religion does not require
actually believing in it.

~~~
selestify
Where do you find these atheists? I don’t know of any atheists in my church,
or any atheist friends that go to church

~~~
yodsanklai
> I don’t know of any atheists in my church, or any atheist friends that go to
> church

Maybe they don't tell you. For instance, my grandmother didn't believe in god
but was culturally attached to the catholic church and traditions. It's quite
common (at least in western Europe where I live)

------
bovermyer
Get out of California. As fast as you can, preferably at a cost that's not
easy to justify.

------
AmericanChopper
The tech community does everything in its power to set up echo chambers and
marginalize outside views as much as possible, then somebody wonders why
everybody in their in-group is all the same as them... It’s not terribly
shocking.

~~~
bovermyer
Replace "tech community" with "literally any human social group" and you're
more accurate.

~~~
AmericanChopper
Perhaps the tech community is simply better at it than everybody else. But I
find that hard to believe. The monoculture in the tech community is blindingly
obvious to anybody who cares to notice it. It’s especially true in the Bay
Area, but not much different elsewhere. Personally I’d suggest that
intolerance is the most important ingredient in establishing a robust
monoculture, of which Silicon Valley certainly isn’t lacking.

