
Ask HN: I'm considering leaving a startup to look for big-company jobs (really). - throwaway4921
I know this decision may not be popular around here, but I think the quality of advice that I'll get is good, so I'm going to ask for it. I'm a talented programmer who is now considering <i>leaving</i> a startup and moving back into the big-company fold. My savings are near zero-- that rules out another startup-- and a part of me thinks that a big-company job for a while might not be the worst thing in the world.<p>I've decided to leave a startup in which I was a founder, although the partnership was always a bit unequal (I'm the youngest and don't have any contacts to potential customers or VCs) and our CEO often takes the attitude of it being a one-man show (i.e. he tends to get "set" in decisions without appeal, he makes shitty comments if we take a long lunch, and we deal with 2-4 status checks per day). I've been treated enough like an employee that my motivation has crashed and I essentially am "just an employee" at this point. I don't have a sense of authorship over my work. At which point, why am I continuing to work for low pay? If the major benefit of being at a startup is autonomy, and I don't have that, then what the fuck am I doing?<p>It's been almost 3 years, and we haven't failed, but we haven't launched or secured funding yet and "just around the corner" syndrome has been ongoing ever since I started. I don't think our CEO would lie, but I can't trust his perception that things are "just about to heat up" because he's been wrong on that matter for so long.<p>I don't think, for the record, that our lack of success (to this point) is the CEO's fault, and it's definitely not mine: I'm just a developer. I'd prefer to leave details out, but we expended a lot of energy chasing features for customers who flaked on us, or that would/might appeal to VCs, and hence we are at Year 3 and have a lot of cool code but no minimum viable product.<p>I feel a bit disloyal and selfish for considering quitting, but I also feel like it's what I need to do. It's my career and I need to be selfish.<p>I also know that established, large companies aren't held in high regard here and I share that prejudice. On the other hand, I think large-company jobs, even if they don't lead to nine-figure exits, <i>can</i> turn out well. My view of large company jobs is this: sure, the default is to get bad projects and not learn much, in which case one leaves after 8-24 months for greener pastures; but they're great if someone powerful taps you as protege, favors you in project allocation, and makes you a "made man" (or "made woman") in the company. In other words, "startup" and "big company" are just two games with good and bad possible outcomes, with more variance in the startup scenario and, in both, with the "good" outcome being somewhat rare (1/5) and the "bad" being the norm. The career game is just about spinning the wheel, repeatedly, until you actually win. And I think it's time for another spin.<p>The question: what does leaving a startup-- one that a future employer won't have heard of-- do for (or to) one's career? Is it right for me to expect "career credit" for the 3 years I spent? Or am I fucked in that regard? Strategically, what should I be doing to maximize my chances of getting a <i>decent</i> big-company job? Also, what is the programmer job market like? When I last looked around (2008) it was horrendous. Has it improved?
======
dexen
I've went from a startup to a large (15k+) company and back to a small
company.

The overall experience is that it's hard to foresee what workplace factors are
important to you. Perhaps the ones you take for granted, but won't be at the
other place.

After leaving the startup, I had high hopes for better organized workplace at
larger company. Boy, I was wrong.

Untill I took a goot root at the large company, I never imagined programmers
and managers could create so many, countless even, artificial problems. Every
tool in our toolbox was inadequate, but changing that was next to impossible
(decisions taken at the uppermost level). Most people exhibited the ``don't
touch it if it works'' attitude that drove me almost crazy. The software would
pass the tests but a lot of weirdness was swept under the proverbial rug with
copious amounts of special-cased code. Software delivery took months. We were
implementing features in an ungainly way, and had no way of reporting a much
better implementation of very similar feature was possible on this hardware.
The list goes on...

Now I'm happy at a 60 strong company. We aren't a software shop, but a small
dev team builds software for internal use, marketing purposes and for our co-
operants. We iterate quickly and deliver features in between 3 hours and 3
weeks. Every person in team has vertical responsibility -- oversees all steps
of development of his feature. We are in touch with users (both internal and
external ones) and work with them closely (that turned out to be an important
factor to me I never appreciated before -- I thought I'm a lone wolf, turns
out it's not the case).

But the best thing for me: people genuinely like using my software. Feels
great! :-)

------
ct
3 years is an eternity in Internet years. If there's a failure to generate a
MVP like you mentioned in 3 yrs (one should've been able to get something out
in 6 months to a year at most to test the markets), then it's time to cut your
losses. Tenacity and willingness to not give up is one thing, but it's also
another to know when to call it quits.

Each day spent without releasing an MVP is a day of lost opportunity that
could've been spent elsewhere.

A large company isn't necessarily a bad thing either as it'll help you
accumulate savings in your early years (which are the most important years to
accumulate savings so you can put it to work generating interest, capital
gains, etc. so that the power of compounding works passively for you). There's
some chart out there somewhere comparing savings compounded early on vs.
someone that started later and the difference when you retire is huge.

Plus sometimes you learn alot about how big companies processes work, how they
make purchases, contacts, etc. that will help you later on in life if you do
intend to go back to a startup world or start your own.

Good luck!

------
kstenerud
1\. The programmer market is HOT HOT HOT now. We're having no end of trouble
finding developers.

2\. You need to take stock of what you've done these past 3 years. How are you
different today from when you started? THAT is your "career credit", and you
need to figure out how to communicate that to a big company. You probably have
a ton of management skills (project management, people management, time
management, etc). Big companies like that.

3\. There's NOTHING wrong with going to work for a big company. Big company =
stability, and after a long roller coaster ride with daily uncertainty, that
can be appealing. You can always start over if it turns out you're stuck with
the entrepreneurial bug ;-)

The key to being an entrepreneur is failing fast, right? You're 3 years in and
haven't launched. Why? Do you know what your customers want? Because once you
build what they actually want, no matter how crappy your first launch (within
reason), you'll have the opposite problem of not being able to retain enough
talent to keep up with their demands. You'll be constantly inundated with
emails to the effect of "Yeah I really like your product, but it'd be so much
better if it did X..." Failing is not just the CEO's decision; it's
EVERYBODY'S decision. YOU are an entrepreneur, too. Use your spidey sense!

And make sure you're honest about it when you talk to your CEO. If you can't
come to common ground, that's too bad, but if you CAN, you might turn this
around yet.

Also: Read up on Founder's Syndrome if you haven't yet:
<http://managementhelp.org/misc/founders.htm>

Edit: And if you're an Android or iPhone developer who's interested in
education and games and lives in the bay area, forget everything I just said.
Your company is beyond help and you should come work with us ;-)

~~~
throwaway4921
> Edit: And if you're an Android or iPhone developer who's interested in
> education and games and lives in the bay area, forget everything I just
> said. Your company is beyond help and you should come work with us ;-)

Who is "us"?

I'm in New York and wouldn't leave except for a really great job, but I meet
at least some of that bill. I'm also not available for at least 2-3 months.
But I would love to talk to you even if it doesn't lead to anything. Care to
take this offline? march19th2011@gmail.com

~~~
kstenerud
We're MindSnacks. We do bite-sized mobile learning in a fun way that makes
people come back for more!

You should be receiving a message in your mailbox shortly.

~~~
FreshCode
MindSnacks is the cutest thing I've seen all day.

------
originalgeek
I sense a slight tinge of guilt in your post where you mention being selfish.
Choosing what is right for you is always acceptable. If any of your co-
founders cannot release you with love, then it is they who are being selfish.
I'm going through the opposite right now, losing one of my best employees to a
better opportunity. She has to choose what's right for her.

I would not rule out other, perhaps funded startups, during your job search.
You won't get as big a piece of the action as a founder, but that may be
irrelevant, depending on where you land.

On the other hand, being an entrepreneur is not for everyone. You seem to
deeply desire autonomy. The are two truths about autonomy. First, one is never
fully autonomous, there are always customers that will hold you accountable.
Second, autonomy has it's price. The most successful entrepreneurs usually
have a long stream of failures in their wake. It's about taking and applying
the lessons from the failures, redoubling efforts, sometimes living an austere
lifestyle while figuring out how to keep the bills paid, and trying again.
Like I said, it's not for everyone. I have many times considered leaving my
venture for the stability of a steady paycheck at a "regular" job. I would be
much less concerned about the future for my family and children. But I know
that choice would be a choice to accept a mediocre vision for my children,
cutting off access to the best toys/learning tools, schools, etc. and I want
better than that for them. I believe the same mediocrity would ripple through
my career path as well. That pressure has caused me to apply the past lessons,
and take risks, some of which are paying off.

The bottom line, reward comes with risk. At a corporate job, the big wigs and
shareholders are taking most of the risk, so they get most of the reward.

Your CEO, from the limited information you have presented, sounds perhaps like
he is more charismatic than he is in possession of the skills necessary to
steer your venture toward profitability. If he has time to check in on all the
guys 2-4 times a day, it sounds to me like he has run out of ideas or has no
real sense of direction for doing what is needed, securing customers or
funding, or just choosing a vision for a product and keeping the lid on the
feature set until v1.0 is achieved. I am also wondering what kind of legal
agreements you have in writing for your startup. He sounds like he is setting
himself up to be the lone founder, claim the lion's share of the spoils, and
screw you and the other co-founders.

------
trevelyan
"I don't think, for the record, that our lack of success (to this point) is
the CEO's fault, and it's definitely not mine: I'm just a developer"

If you really have the attitude "it's not my fault... I'm just a developer"
then you should look for a job at a larger company where work processes are
institutionalized. And if you get the temptation to do startup life again
start your own thing on the side WITHOUT a co-founder so you don't have any
temptation to fall into this mindset again.

Without assigning fault, it isn't good that you're abdicating the
responsibility to define the business and get customers, and then balking when
your partner makes demands. You've settled into a subordinate position and
your post basically reads as if you want to switch to another alpha male since
this one doesn't seem capable of driving growth.

I don't mean this to sound critical, but life doesn't work this way, or at
least it never has for me and most of the people I know. When you start a
business you have to do almost everything (if only because most other people
can't). So - sure - work somewhere insulated from the market to support
yourself and and force yourself to be more entrepreneurial by starting a side
business.

~~~
throwaway4921
Wow. Thanks for the criticism. (No, I'm not being sarcastic. One of the great
things about the Internet is that people say what they honestly think.)

I have settled into "just a developer" mindset, because every time I raise
issues, I lose. I pointed out things that were screwed up a long time ago, and
they never changed. I guess, subconsciously, I've just accepted that I'm not
an alpha male, at least not _yet_. I'd love to be wrong on that, but I've felt
"beta" for more than a year.

~~~
ScottBurson
If you _were_ an alpha male, under these circumstances you would have left
long ago. Someone who refuses to address problems is not worth keeping as a
co-founder.

~~~
throwaway4921
I did. Not in a "here's why you're wrong" confrontational manner, nor with
lines in the sand, but I did raise many of the issues. It got me nowhere.

I don't think I'm an alpha male, though I wouldn't step as far as "not worth
keeping". I make decisions about when to confront and when not and sometimes
they're the right ones, sometimes not.

~~~
ScottBurson
No, no, I meant _he's_ not worth keeping as a partner, not you!

------
kevin_morrill
One tip if you join a bigger company: make sure you join a team that knows how
to ship and is critical to the company. I don't think you want to spend
_another_ three years on something that doesn't get traction. Working at
Microsoft for several years, I saw too many team that didn't know how to
really arrive at a meaningful feature set and ship. Well established companies
often have so much money these teams don't get weeded out as quickly.

Fortunately, I didn't have to ever live through this first-hand. And that was
by far my favorite aspect of working at a big company, I knew that I was
working on something that tens of millions of people would use, and it would
be a significant part of their lives.

Go for it! There's plenty you'll learn and you can get financially rewarded a
lot more than many startups.

~~~
jrockway
This is not that important. What's important at a big company is title or pay
grade; after you're there for a while, it's going to be very hard to get a
significant raise. But when you're coming in, it's very easy. Plan how long
you want to be at the company, then ask for the title and salary you want
_then_. Otherwise you are just going to be bitter, because the people that
have no programming ability but have been warming the chairs for ten years are
going to make a lot more money and have a lot more decision-making power than
you.

Remember, as a programmer: they need you more than you need them. There are
plenty of other places to work.

~~~
brown9-2
"Not that important" depends on what your goals are. Sounds to me like the GP
is taking the view that job satisfaction and the pleasure of seeing the work
you are doing contribute to the bottom line will be significant to the OP - I
think this is good advice.

Your advice also makes sense if all you are concerned about is the size of
your paycheck. But we all have different goals at different time, taking a
good look at which ones are currently important to the OP will help him/her
find a happier spot in life.

~~~
jrockway
You don't need a job to have fun programming.

~~~
cpeterso
Real programmers have day jobs? :)

------
mirkules
I've been working at a large company for the last 7 years, recently quit to
join another large company. I have always had projects "on the side," but
those have (so far) never led anywhere, and I can only dream of joining a
startup -- Why? Because the money in corporate work is good enough, the job is
stable, and you are right that if someone takes you under their wing, you can
go far.

On the flipside, upper management is usually not a good place for
(ex-)developers (which means less money). Maybe it's just my perception of
things, but it seems like you already have to be a part of the upper
management club to join the upper management club, if that makes sense.

Another bad point is you have to deal with people that you will never be sure
how they even got a job. This can be very frustrating at times because
sometimes these people can hold a position of power, and you just have to
learn to say "yes sir" in the face of an obviously-bad decision -- in fact,
you may be experiencing this right now.

Finally, you there can be a huge amount of bureaucracy that you have to deal
with and this can be frustrating if you're the type that just wants to get
stuff done.

After joining corporate, you might not want to join a startup because your job
is "cushy" and you don't want to take on that much risk. You will be
"comfortable." And if you're ok with that, I say go for it, it's not so bad as
everyone here thinks it is :)

------
Contractor69
What's wrong with a job at a small or medium sized company? I'm guessing
you're very, very young (18-22) to have such a myopic view of things. "The
career game is just about spinning the wheel, repeatedly, until you actually
win." Wow. Really? How about making things happen for yourself instead of
spinning a wheel? There's more opportunities in this world beyond startups and
"big" companies. Plenty of mid-sized companies would love to get their hands
on a talented individual like you. And not all jobs will suck your soul and
drive you to the edge of sanity.

BTW, at 3 years in, you guys aren't "startup"-ing anything. You're playing
around at best. Time to get out and get some experience.

------
jackfoxy
2-4 status checks a day, and you have not launched? That is dysfunctional. The
only time that kind of status checking is warranted is during some sort of
production crisis, which by definition you cannot be having.

The right big company job can be fulfilling and good for your career. Like any
other career choice, it has to be evaluated on its own merits.

~~~
throwaway4921
_2-4 status checks a day, and you have not launched? That is dysfunctional._

Thank you. It's a bit much. I've observed that it leads to the micromanagement
death spiral: status checking leads to low productivity leads to a further
sense (on the manager's part) of the need for status checks. Too high a ping
frequency leads to a work environment that's about "beating" the checks, which
is shitty going both ways, an awful way to work (from an employee's
perspective) and a terrible work ethic (from a manager's viewpoint). If you
manage people like children, they either become children or get out.

I really let myself slide, staying out of a sense of loyalty, even though the
negatives turned me from an A-player to a B-player to now a middle C. I want
to be an A-player again. If that means changing jobs, so be it. The nice thing
about this job search (as opposed to others) is that I have a job and no
urgency.

I really enjoyed this job for the first 18 months, though. For all the
negatives, it was fucking fun as hell at first, even though I was living on
very little money. Then we had a panic point when we discovered how terrible
our first technical hire did his part, and how much work that put between us
and a launch. (No one had, to that point, audited his code. Ever. The guy is
very smart and has been programming for 10+ years so no one, myself included,
saw the need. Lesson learned: a programmer can be smart as hell and have years
of experience and still be bad in his specific role. Trust but verify.) I
disagreed with the CEO on how to manage this awful code (he wanted to use it
and put me into kludge/workaround hell, I wanted to rewrite) and lost, so I
dropped to a 9-to-5er because I was pissed about his decision, and _then_ the
insanely-frequent status checks came.

------
code
I'm sorry to hear about your situation. From the way it sounds, you were never
treated as a cofounder and three years and still no launch is an insane amount
of time for a startup. Regardless of what the reason may have been, it should
definitely not have taken that long.

Given your low reserves and being unable to join another startup because of
that, I don't see an issue with joining a company that can payroll you till
you're able to pursue another startup idea down the road. You should be able
to work on something on the side. I actually don't share the sentiment that
working at a big company is bad (or as you say, not held in high regard).
Definitions of startups are skewed. Technically Facebook is a startup, yet I
look at them like they're a big company. It really depends. I think there's
value in being at a big company as well. Some of my best business lessons were
from regular jobs working at some bigCo prior to building a startup.

In regards to your career credit... you should have been vested for stocks on
a typical four year vesting schedule where if you've been there for three
years, you should have vested 3/4th of your stocks already. If you were an
employee, and had stock options, that's different. You would need to check.

As a developer, assuming you're good, the market is wide open.

PS As a side note, if you're ever interested in joining another startup, I am
looking for a cofounder (made a post on here earlier).

~~~
throwaway4921
_From the way it sounds, you were never treated as a cofounder_

On a personal level, I like our CEO a lot. He's really smart and one hell of a
great guy but he wants to hold the power/control in his hands as much as
possible-- a "benevolent dictatorship" of sorts. I also think he has a great
vision and would be excellent in a lot of contexts.

My issue, personally, is that I am doing this to get to a position of high
autonomy-- and that may never happen, I'm coming to realize. I figure that if
I work to get rich, I'll probably be miserable and might fail and, even if I
succeed, won't be for the better for it (though if I have kids, they will be).
Or I can work toward autonomy and enjoyment, maybe get rich and maybe not, but
at least have the rare privilege of actually _enjoying_ going to work. I'm
doing the startup because, if it pans out, I'll have a really cool job and
lots of autonomy. Maybe. But if the CEO decides I'm "just a developer" and I
end up answering to some hired-gun VP, then I'll have no choice but to quit
and, if my equity doesn't do well, years of my life will have been lost.

There's a certain natural distrust I have of business people. Most of them
don't mean to do any harm, but they waste others' time and ruin lives with
their overconfident promises and their willingness to trample others'
interests if they see it as the profitable thing to do. On the other hand, a
dismal realist like me, one who acknowledges that failure is _possible_ ,
can't inspire people in the way profound promises can, now can he?

 _three years and still no launch is an insane amount of time for a startup.
Regardless of what the reason may have been, it should definitely not have
taken that long._

I'm not sure how I feel about that one. First of all, there were definite (but
forgivable IMO) time-eating mistakes we made in the process, and our first
technical hire is brilliant but was a really bad choice for the first
programmer, and we're still paying that down. As for time-to-launch, I think
there are a lot of "social" startups that can be hacked together in a few
weeks, but deep technology takes longer. Maybe not 3 years, but definitely 12
to 18 months.

 _As a developer, assuming you're good, the market is wide open._

I think I'm both too good and not good enough. "Too good" in the sense that I
die a little bit when I have to use languages like Java instead of languages
like Haskell or at least Python. "Not good enough" in the sense that I didn't
become a programmer until age 24 and, despite natural talent, I feel like I
have a _lot_ of catching up to do. There's so much in software that I've never
touched; it was only a few months ago that I learned HTTP and REST.

 _PS As a side note, if you're ever interested in joining another startup, I
am looking for a cofounder (made a post on here earlier)._

Thanks. I'll look at it. I'm actually not looking to move until mid-summer.
Given that this is a tiny company, I'm more inclined to give 2-3 months'
notice than the standard 2 weeks.

~~~
impendia
> (though if I have kids, they will be)

Not a parent, but I think the best thing you can do for your kids is to lead a
good life yourself -- where good is by your own standards.

> I feel like I have a lot of catching up to do.

I must say -- you describe your skills similarly to most people I know who are
_seriously_ good. Really good people recognize there's a lot of stuff out
there they don't know and would benefit from learning.

------
drndown2007
Leave. Your hard work is being wasted there. I was in almost an identical
situation. When I left the company folded, but funding was getting short
anyway (the first time a check bounced I used that as my excuse). The boss
won't be happy, but you can only go up from where you're at.

Happy side note: 10 years later I'm running my own startup (only founder) and
it's great. However, working in big companies between the two was definitely
helpful.

------
russell
I've found that small companies,100 or so people, with shipping profitable
product are a good fit. They are small enough that an individual developer has
an impact, but they dont have the stifling bureaucracy of larger, especially
public, companies.

Surprisingly, I've found that the frequency of releases is a good indicator of
how happy I'll be. A release every week or two is very comfortable without
huge pressure. Releases every few months are hell. Death marches, endless
requirements documents, way too much process, lack of tools, cant get
something because it wasnt budgeted last year. You get the picture.

------
yurylifshits
There is also an option to go for mediums-sized companies that have validated
business model and revenue stream: Eventbrite, Chegg, Twilio, Palantir, etc...

~~~
throwaway4921
Good point. I've never worked in a truly large company before. For me, 100 is
"large". Most people probably call that medium-size.

I have nothing against working for a funded startup at this point.

~~~
bgentry
Not sure of your background or skill set, but Heroku is hiring like crazy.
We're now owned by Salesforce.com but that relationship is as hands-off as you
can imagine. I think we've got the best of both worlds (startup & big
company). Take a look at jobs.heroku.com or send me your info if you're at all
interested. Did I mention we're remote-friendly? b [at] heroku.com

------
bx_lr
It seems you are in a situation where I was a long time ago. I also was
frustrated, because the CEO had the same attitude, the start-up never started
making money, low pay, no savings.

I was thinking about quitting for a long time, but didn't do so. I felt
loyalty, I was green, I was the developer guy, I didn't really know how
businesses are created, yadda, yadda. At the same time I felt that things were
not right, we were not going to the right direction.

After some years I decided to quit. Being broke was the last straw. I was also
becoming toxic, a hostage, I had to quit to save myself and the start-up.

It was a bit hard to find a corporate job, because I didn't develop any good
connections to the industry during my start-up time. Eventually I landed a job
in a big company. It wasn't the best of jobs, but got me started in my current
career. After two years I got a call from a manager that quit from that
company. That's how I got my next corporate job. Then after three years, the
same manager called me again and I got my current corporate job. And now I
called that manager and some other ex-colleagues to offer job opportunities.
You get the picture.

In hindsight quitting was the best decision I ever made. Two years after I
left the start-up lost funding and went bust. Steady income improved my life
significantly, I paid off debts, started saving, travelled, had real
vacations. Almost all the stress and pain in my life was gone.

The only thing I regret is that I didn't quit earlier. I didn't believe in the
start-up, but I kept hanging around, I was wasting my time. Since this
experience I have made the decision to trust my gut feelings. If I feel
something is wrong, I'll trust myself. So far this has served me well. I keep
large savings. The idea is that if I ever need to make a jump to the void,
then I'm able to do it.

My advice based on my own experiences:

\- If you are finished, get out, because you are wasting your time and
potentially other people's time.

\- To maximize your chances to get a job in a big company look for a good
match. When I quit I applied to all sorts of interesting jobs, but never got a
reply. I did graphics programming, and unsurprisingly I was eventually hired
by a company that desperately needed a graphics programmer.

------
elliottcarlson
I work for an established company - we are only 60ish people, but the company
has been around for a very long time now. The resumes I see often contain
companies I have never heard of and that is perfectly fine - as long as you
can tell me what cool things you worked on, you would be a candidate I would
listen to. Just because you haven't worked at some larger agency, it really
wouldn't matter. It's how good of a coder that you are that really matters.

------
zbruhnke
I agree with some of the other posters here, there is no shame in working for
a big company, there is also no shame in working for a startup and not having
an exit (lots of people do it)

I would say you are a great fit for some well funded companies that are still
considered "startups" i.e. Twilio, Airbnb , HipMunk, etc. judging from your
comments and without seeing your resume.

I am rare in the sense that I have never actually looked for a job since I
have always had my own ideas for projects or startups that I have always
decided to pursue. But I can tell you the one thing I see most often when I am
looking around is that almost everyone hiring is looking for a 4 year degree
(since I am a dropout maybe thats why I usually dont look/apply for jobs) but
if you have finished your degree I am sure you'll do fine.

Personally I was not even going to school for programming I started doing it
in middle school for a hobby and it progressed from there, I sold a software
company in my junior year of college and never looked back, even still I am
not sure many companies would hire me because of my lack of a degree, so that
is something else to consider as well.

I dont think you should at all feel selfish for considering your future or
desiring to be able to save money again, at the end of the day if you are not
happy you are not putting your all into the product and the MVP probably will
never be as good today as it would have been if you had put it out 3 years ago
with a fresher vision and lots of drive.

I'd say to follow your gut, seems to me most peoples first instinct is almost
always their best.

Good luck with everything!

------
codelust
Moving from a start-up to bigco: Most important change - you can go from
VP/head Engineering (in a 2-man team) to something significantly smaller,
especially if you don't have many years of experience.

Career credit: Depends entirely on what you have done at the start up and how
it fits with the target company/role.

The answers aside, life decisions are not popularity contests. You need to do
what makes most sense for you and most importantly, what sits right with you.
Outstanding HN karma does not pay anyone's bills :)

Early stage companies are much like relationships, they don't always work out.
You need to know where the invisible line that demarcates your being good for
the company and being bad for it lies. Sometimes, the propensity of
things/people you love and care for the most to cause you more harm than even
your worst enemy is incredible. Stay on the right side of the line.

Not everyone will like you all the time, you can't do everything right all the
time, nor will good fortune follow you all the time. When it is bad, lie low,
survive, find your way out. When it is good, pay it forward and make up for
the bad you have done.

Good luck :)

------
kazuya
Here is my story about leaving my own and joining a big.

We started it aiming to be a big fish in a tiny pond (software for embedded
wireless devices, niche market, yes). But, as an expected result for a project
without well-defined goals, we weren't able to build any working software.
While we were at it we made money with contract jobs and that reduced time to
work on the project furthermore as we were self-funded and it wasn't enough to
feed us for more than six months.

To make it worse, one of the founding member, who is a specialist about
digital signal processing and we couldn't go without, was considering pursuing
academic research.

After plodding through that muddy state for almost five years, I had
accumulated enough fatigue and eventually we decided to dissolve it.

Other members had found their own way and I found a job at a big company.
Maybe I was fortunate, because it's quite difficult for a thirty-some with
somewhat messy job records to find a job at an established company, esp. in
Japan. Or maybe not, because my experience and skill set were considered
versatile particularly in embedded systems industry.

As others says, I thought of it as bartering freedom with stability. That is
partly true, but it wasn't that bad. Among others, it's a definitely
invaluable experience to make software of a hardware product that are to be
sold in thousand millions. That is what I never do in a small startup.

So mine is one example favoring your move, whatever your motivation is. I
believe many big companies think your 3 years at a startup a big plus. Why?
Because big companies are full of people without that experience, often only
top execs have it, but they sometimes have to start new to survive.

As for maximizing your chances of getting a job at a big co, it is critical to
understand and clearly state why you failed. I'm sure they will ask about it
if they are decent.

------
daimyoyo
While I can fully appreciate your sense of loss about leaving your company,
you have to do what's good for you. If you've been in development limbo this
long, odds are the CEO doesn't have the vision and or the leadership required
to get over the finish line. Just remember that if need be, the company would
get rid of you without a second thought.

------
PonyGumbo
Go for it. Take a quick detour job to build up savings, and then find (or
create) another startup in a year or two.

>Strategically, what should I be doing to maximize my chances of getting a
decent big-company job?

I had a hell of a time getting interviews as a 'co-founder', and ultimately
ended up changing my title to 'lead developer'. YMMV.

------
apotheon
Don't focus on the size of the company.

Smaller companies will be more ready to discuss and consider nontraditional
job experience. Smaller companies will be easier to analyze for exactly what
kinds of projects you'll be working on. Smaller companies will be more
transparent in terms of giving you an idea how your work environment will
feel. Smaller companies will allow you to make changes to your own
circumstances more easily. Smaller companies will be more likely to recognize,
and reward, _real_ talent rather than ass-kissing and toeing the company line.
While larger companies tend to be more resilient to the vagaries of the
market, thus ensuring their continued existence, they achieve that in part by
being willing to lay off hundreds or thousands of good workers at a time when
the going gets tough, thus eliminating any imagined job security benefit
(though there are exceptions, like Toyota).

About the only advantage a big company really has is the ability to make a
lateral career move with greater ease, in organizations that encourage hiring
from within, because they're more willing to hire someone without relevant
experience as long as they have plenty of experience within that organization.

Remember, there's a difference between "startup" and "smaller company". Many
smaller companies are stable, friendly work environments where people have a
fair bit of autonomy (relative to the vast majority of the bigger companies),
_without_ suffering the problems that afflict dysfunctional startups. You
don't need to take the diametrical opposite career track to get a couple of
benefits that are lacking in your current circumstances; you just need to make
a change by enough degrees that it addresses the specific problems you
currently face. In fact, you're more likely to be happy that way, because you
don't have to give up as much of what you _like_ about your current
circumstances (even if you do not realize there are things you like about it).

edit: Okay, maybe you should focus on the size of the company somewhat -- but
not the way you think.

------
throwawaycobol
Please for the love of ada lovelace. Do Not Do This. Pivot, start something
new, what ever you do stay free. Do it for those of us who dream to have the
will to someday also break free of the share cropping bit shoveling that is
big-company job-land.

------
methodin
I started out in a medium company not really doing anything exciting, but
doing it fast (and in .NET... bleh!). I decided to go the startup route and
tried that and failed twice over the next two years. At some point I got fed
up with job hunting and decided to move into a bigger company.

It did wonders for me. Not only did I learn all the things I couldn't with
startups (managing 200+ webservers, 75 DBs, tables with over 100 million rows
etc...) but I was able to fine tune exactly what I DO want in a career.

Every opportunity offers something unique so its just a matter of extracting
the things that benefit you until the point at which it becomes boring or you
stagnate. Then move on :)

------
Cherian_Abraham
Just wanted to add that unless your partners in a startup (and that includes
the youngest employee or the newest employee) does not have an emotional
ownership in the goals and objectives of the startup, unless they are
incentivized by the belief (beyond monetary incentives) that what they each
create will embody their deepest passions and aspirations while enabling them
to achieve their best potential.

I didnt write this though. I am borrowing from "What makes entrepreneurs
entrepreneurial" a study that tries to understand the spirit of an
entrepreneur. You are well advised to share the study with your CEO.

~~~
throwaway4921
Thanks.

I gotta say that the drop in my motivation was gradual. I posted this above:
the first 18 months were great. A lot of coding and I had a hell of a good
time. When we hit a panic point the CEO made a decision that I thought was
bad, and became a 9-to-5er during the 6+ month shit project this bad decision
generated, mainly because I just couldn't work on it for longer and saw no
point in putting in more ass-in-chair time to keep up appearances. So he
started ramping up the status checks (to 2-4 per day) on everyone. I think
this high-frequency checking had more to do with our panic point than anything
punitive, because everyone else got hit with more pings, but it _felt_
punitive. And when status checks are that frequent, it's hard to be more than
a 9-to-5er. An 8-hour day with frequent interruptions is, IME, about the same
as a 13-hour day, in terms of fatigue, in coding flow. Much less fun and far
less productive, too.

------
YuriNiyazov
Not all startups are created equal, and I seriously think you can probably
find a place that is not a "big company" but nevertheless has things you are
looking for. Why not get a job at something like Dropbox?

------
stonemetal
_"just about to heat up"_ If you haven't launched there is nothing to heat up,
well maybe the air(as in nothing but hot air.)

 _one that a future employer won't have heard of-- do for (or to) one's
career_ Do you believe your future employer has heard of every company that
has ever employed a software developer? Sure they won't be like wow that guy
worked at Google, but they also won't say he has been living in his mom's
basement for the past three years. It will be up to you to convey what you
have been doing professionally in that time.

------
skrebbel
don't worry so much about the career thing. if you're at a good and
challenging spot that meets your personal needs, you'll start to shine
automatically.

think about what really makes you tick, and try to find a place that matches
this. why are you in a startup? for the autonomy? or for the superhero
feeling? for the potential big money? other way around, what of that won't you
mind missing if you switch to a big company? answering these questions may
help you find the kind of spots you like best. describe the workplace you'd
like before giving it a name.

i mean, there are middle grounds, it's not a black and white thing. i work for
a 250-ish people software consultancy firm, who 'rent' me to a well-funded and
well-managed 10 people startup. i have all the joys (and occasional
overtime/stress) of working at a startup. this includes high degrees of
autonomy ("we need something fixed here and there, kind of, to solve this and
that problem. we think. you work it out.") and a cozy "us against the world"
atmosphere.

meanwhile, at my actual employer, i get coaching from experienced engineers
and managers, a training budget, and the comfort knowing that if ever my work
at the startup stops being challenging enough, i can switch projects without
even quitting my job.

this matches my needs, as a result of which i'm learning and growing fast.
what are yours?

------
briandoll
If you've been working at something for three years and have not shipped
anything yet, you're not at a startup.

This is a perfect example of the anti-lean "startup", though, so I'm sure
you've learned a lot about what not to do.

I would leave for sure. Wether you choose a safe desk job at a megacorp or at
an actual startup this time around is your choice. Just keep in mind that real
startups ship, iterate and learn. Constantly.

------
impendia
If you are seriously considering leaving, it seems like you have a lot of
leverage to ask your CEO to be treated differently.

~~~
dustingetz
you don't ask to be treated differently, you demonstrate that you're worth
being treated differently. an attitude like "its not my fault, i'm just a
developer" isn't helping.

~~~
throwaway4921
_you don't ask to be treated differently, you demonstrate that you're worth
being treated differently. an attitude like "its not my fault, i'm just a
developer" isn't helping._

Damn right. A kick in the pants for which I thank you.

CEO said he didn't intend on having me attend investor meetings because blah,
blah I was too green. I figured I'd work hard for 6 months and change his
mind. Never happened. At the time, I didn't see the need to go to investor
meetings, didn't see that they'd be a good use of my time. But now, with a CEO
who meets with customers and investors alone, he actually can call all the
shots unquestioned because he's the only one with knowledge of what they need.

He was actually honest with me, before I even started, that he didn't think I
was true co-founder material... by saying that he'd not be bringing me in on
investor meetings. I was just naive and thought I could "prove myself". And I
only got to double-digit equity because of going on deferred cash for so many
months (far more than he thought it'd take to get VC). I just let myself deny
it, figuring I'd win him over with 12 months of hard work. It never happened,
and now my attitude is weak, my work ethic has become mediocre, and I just
need to change everything: circumstances and attitude.

~~~
dustingetz
hi! so, yeah, you were never a founder, it was a sugar title. I don't think
I'd ever co with someone where there wasn't an equal balance of value and
credibility.

HN sometimes has an attitude of "oh, you aren't a founder? you suck" but that
isn't true at all. If you do have the itch to take on founder challenges,
don't let this stop you from trying again, in a domain where you are credible
and with a balanced founding team. Or, stop worrying about it now, put
yourself in places where you will pick up these skills from mentors, you will
wake up in a few years with the skills and credibility to found a company of
this magnitude.

------
SkyMarshal
Three years in without success is not terrible, but three years in without
even launching is a big red flag. Sounds like even if they do eventually
succeed, your boss, er co-founder, will try to marginalize your
share/compensation/etc anyway. I'd go.

------
jjm
Look to joining another startup. Three years is too long. Look into evaluating
your current predicament every 6 months. In a corp job, two years is the
maximum I'd expect in any position, and you stayed three with a startup...

Seriously look to join another startup.

~~~
throwaway4921
I could definitely do this if the startup job could pay me full salary. Alas,
I'm in New York and would not leave the city lightly: family and friends. It'd
have to be a dream job for me to consider moving, and with the rocky career
I've had I don't even think dream jobs are available (or maybe it's just that
I feel like a failure because I'm near 30 and haven't broken out yet).

My appraisal of startup vs. big-company life is that startups have more
variation in individual monetary payoff, while big companies have more
variance in quality of work. At a startup, you get a mix of interesting work
and shitty grunt work that has to be done, and there's nothing personal about
it because everyone is getting about the same quality of work, and because
doing the grunt work is well worth it if the startup pays off. In a big
company, you can end up in an AI/machine learning research group with high
autonomy... or you can end up maintaining some shitty legacy payroll system.

But yes, I would consider a job at another startup. Or at a big company. Or at
my current company if I knew the situation would improve. I don't _want_ to be
a "job hopper" and would love to find a job where it's still worth it to show
up for work after 5 years.

------
maxklein
If I were not working on my own startup, or an important stakeholder in the
startup I'm working for, I'd much rather work for a big company. The stable
hours and free time would give me more time to work on my own startup on the
side.

------
adrianscott
You might consider contracting for a big company rather than being a bigco
employee. More time coding, less time in meetings/politics, etc. I did that
for a few years before focusing on founding startups of my own.

------
fizx
It's also possible to work at a growth-stage startup (Twitter, FB, Zynga,
Groupon, etc). They pay market salaries, but there's some upside too.

------
gsiener
Just shot you an email -- you should consider working with us (Profitably) if
the fit is good.

------
JoshKalkbrenner
Is it better to be known as a quitter or loser?

Is that the question???

------
sethco
I'm not going to comment on whether you should try to fix things at your
current company but I have some good perspective on the job market and some of
the options that you are looking at so I will comment on those things (both
from your original question and in some of the comments)

I just finished a job search focusing on medium size companies (specifically I
was looking for funded, growing startups with say 20 < total staff < 200). I
have a good network and got some great leads and had three great offers in
hand after a one month search process. I don't say that to boast, just to
point out that there are lots of opportunities out there. Everything that I
saw and heard in the process confirmed that this is a great market for a
developer looking for a job. Several other people whom I know were looking at
the same time and all have accepted or are close to accepting new positions.
For more confirmation look at Fred Wilson's post today, it even links to the
USV jobs board: <http://www.avc.com/a_vc/2011/03/the-war-for-talent.html>

Unless there is something specific that you are looking for in a large company
(and it sounds like there isn't particularly) then maybe you should be looking
at funded startups as well? This can be a great option: the company is funded
so you probably don't have to worry about getting paid this month or next
month (although that concern may come sooner or later, keep alert!); they are
small and hopefully growing so you still get to wear lots of hats and can have
a large say in defining your role and can still see your personal impact on
the company's future; they won't have the bureaucracy or organizational
overhead of a large co; lots more too. True you won't have as large a stake as
you have now but 0.001% of something valuable is better than 25% of nothing!

As to finding a job, in my experience getting in through a recruiter is the
hardest way and least likely to succeed. Having your resume submitted by
someone in the company or finding a founder here on HN or whatever other
inside track you can find is much more useful. Now that I think about it, I
realize that in 16 years in the industry I have never once gotten a job
through a recruiter (that isn't entirely true, my first contract position went
through a recruiter but they were given my resume by someone at the company
that was hiring contractors). Every time except that first one I started the
conversation with the person or people who would be making the hire/no-hire
decision and going back to recruiting to setup the interview loop, etc. was
just a formality.

So fire up your network (and if you don't have a good one then start building
one! Go to startup events, Python tech talks, whatever excites you). Start
looking for opportunities, talk to people, maybe go on some interviews to see
what is out there and to see how you do.

In one of the comments you express concern about your age, "near 30 and
haven't broken out yet". Well, I say don't worry so much about that. I was 27
when I got my first computer industry job as a contract Software Test Engineer
at Microsoft; I am 42 now and doing very well in Senior Engineer/Architect
level positions. Don't be fooled by the myth that you have to make it by 25 or
whatever.

Your resume may be a bit thin, that is a concern but remember that everyone
started with a blank resume. You need to figure out how to explain your
accomplishments over the past three years that doesn't focus on not shipping
and does focus on what _you_ did do.

Don't worry too much about being a job hopper at this point; three years is a
long time at one job and squarely within the normal range. If I saw someone
with a string of <2 year jobs or a couple of 6 month jobs I would ask about
it, and there could be a reasonable explanation, but 3 year jobs? No worries
there.

One very good piece of advice that I got as I started my search: you only get
to pick a new job half a dozen or at the most a dozen times in your career so
pick good jobs!

------
jsavimbi
"It's been almost 3 years, and we haven't failed, but we haven't launched or
secured funding yet"

Dude, drop what you're doing and get out.

------
ahoyhere
There's no absolute truth about whether the "work gap" or whatever will affect
you. It's all about who you approach and how you spin it.

Theoretically, when I got my first job at 21, the fact that I'd never worked
for anyone else, never had a set office schedule, never worked in an office at
all in fact... would have been a detractor. But I wrote a beautiful cover
letter explaining just how well freelancing prepared me to be a take-charge,
self-motivated, self-managing and flexible worker.

See what I did there? You do the same. Plus you obviously demonstrate staying
power.

There are never enough good people to fill tech jobs.

Finally, why would you feel disloyal to someone who was disloyal to you? You
clearly tried to put more into the relationship than he did. You can only do
so much. He decided the tone of your relationship, he decided how (little?)
much you were worth to him, and that's that. He made his decision - exit with
a clear conscience.

