
A silent epidemic of male suicide (2011) - MollyR
http://www.bcmj.org/articles/silent-epidemic-male-suicide
======
nyolfen
>Al­though men die by suicide at a higher rate, women have a higher rate of
attempting suicide.16 This pattern is evident among youth and persists over
the lifespan.

Why is this? I've read before that modes of suicide tend to be gendered -- ie,
gunshots to the head for men and overdoses for women. Is this the entire
story? Are women more likely, consciously or unconsciously, to be social
signaling for support than men when they attempt suicide?

I lost my brother to suicide three years ago. I began attending counseling
this year after a protracted period of personal turmoil in its aftermath, and
it's a topic I spend a lot of thought on. When I was younger and less
psychologically moored I thought of suicide as the ultimate lever I could
wield over my own fate. Not so much these days, though.

~~~
Mz
I am a woman. I attempted suicide at age 17.

I went though my desk drawers, etc. I found some pills, maybe decongestants,
and decided that would probably not kill me. I found an exacto knife in my art
supplies and decided to cut my wrist with it. I failed to hit a major artery.
There was very little blood.

In contrast, I believe my brother's room had a gun, a bow and an encyclopedia
of true crime. Had he attempted suicide while locked in his room, there would
have been dramatically greater access to effective means and useful
information for actually ending up dead.

I will suggest that women generally have less access to effective means,
generally have less exposure to subjects relevant to figuring out how to end a
life, and that women are typically subjected to a greater amount of social
control that limits their ability to act.

Men are more likely to be infantrymen, police officers, hunt as a hobby, etc.
Thus, they are just more likely to know how to kill something.

Additionally, successful suicides occur when you are alone. Men seem to have
more opportunities to actually be alone, an observation I made years ago on a
different forum about a different subject.

Women typically make less money than men, so they are less likely to be able
to afford a place of their own. They tend to have roommates. Following a
divorce, women are more likely to get custody of the children. So, post
divorce, men are more likely to be living alone, women are more likely to be
living with kids.

Etc.

If you attempt suicide with other people at home, you need to keep it a
secret. If they find out, they will stop you. Simply having other people
around is a deterrent to succeeding. It is hard to very quietly, secretly off
yourself.

So, I think one factor is that women are less likely to have sufficient
privacy, for lack of a better word, to succeed.

~~~
duaneb
This seems to be American centric, though. Even when the means (eg hanging and
poison mentioned earlier) are readily available to both sexes there is still a
sexed difference.

~~~
Mz
I don't know why you would think that poison or hanging are equally available
to both genders. In the aggregate, there are significant differences in not
only career choices but hobby choices and other aspects of lifestyle. It in no
way surprises me this impacts aggregate statistics on methodology.

I posit that many supposed gender differences are rooted in the different life
experiences of the sexes:

[http://micheleincalifornia.blogspot.com/2014/03/princesses-d...](http://micheleincalifornia.blogspot.com/2014/03/princesses-
dont-start-starships.html)

~~~
tree_of_item
Why wouldn't you think that? Poison and hanging are equally _available_ but
they choose different methods based on life experiences.

That is, they both have a bunch of pills or a rope lying around but that
doesn't mean they both choose them.

~~~
duaneb
Either way we've wandered into deep speculation territory. We need more data.

------
Animats
Male suicides are up in the US, too. The US has about 40,000 suicides a year.
"Suicide is concentrated among those whom our society values least."[1]. The
big jump is among white, middle-aged men and women.

"The states with the highest suicide rates tend to be clustered in the South
and the Mountain West... This suicide belt is also defined by what
psychologists have dubbed a “culture of honor.” ... That means higher murder
rates but even more-exaggerated suicide rates, a fact he attributes to
millennia of old masculine codes meeting a disappearance of blue-collar jobs
unlikely to reverse itself. Give me honor, or give me death was a safer
personal motto when honor could still be readily found." \- Newsweek

Will this be the fate of today's "brogrammers" in their 40s?

[1] [http://www.newsweek.com/2013/05/22/why-suicide-has-become-
ep...](http://www.newsweek.com/2013/05/22/why-suicide-has-become-epidemic-and-
what-we-can-do-help-237434.html)

~~~
sevenless
Do you have any demeaning nicknames for those who work in female dominated
professions too?

~~~
duaneb
Whatever. Zeitgeist labor force. It doesn't need to be bound to sex to be
meaningful.

~~~
Chris2048
In this case, however, it is bound to sex.

~~~
duaneb
Yea, and that's a problem in itself.

------
booleandilemma
The problem is at least partly societal. A large portion of life is made up of
social interaction, and men and women have very different experiences of this.
People are generally nicer to women. Men are treated as being less important
than women (think: women and children first). With this in mind, it's not
surprising men are more likely to kill themselves.

~~~
narag
Males bear the burden of a lot of aggresivity hormones. That and the fact
males are stronger would explain men commit more violent crimes, hurt women
more often than the other way around and also suicide more often.

I don't think men are treated as less important. The "women and children
first" is more of a societal compensation for the fact that men can go first
_because_ we're, on average, stronger and more aggresive.

~~~
ahoka
This is plain misandrism and should have no place on HN.

~~~
narag
If it's sarcasm, it whooshed over my head.

------
slr555
There are several sources for comparable US data. Examining page 6 of the PDF
below demonstrates that the suicide rates for middle aged to elderly Caucasian
males in the US is higher in 2014 by a factor of ~3 or in cases more compared
to women and other ethnicities. Despite the prevalence of suicide in this
group the issue is seldom covered by the media or addressed in public policy
debates.

[http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/hestat/suicide/rates_1999_2014....](http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/hestat/suicide/rates_1999_2014.pdf)

------
adamnemecek
I think that to a large extent this has something to do with the (mostly
terrible) educational system just about everywhere in the world. Your
education kind of sets a course for the rest your life and it's a travesty
that very productive years are basically squandered because the system is
setup for maybe 19th century.

------
cup
Is it silent?

The statistics and data aggregation seem pretty robust. Most governments
publish data reinforcing that suicide is a huge risk factor for men.

I don't think It's a silent epidemic as much as It's just not an important
epidemic. Society doesn't necessarily rank _the problem_ of male suicide high
enough to fix or fund.

~~~
yomly
>It's just not an important epidemic.

" _Aye,there 's the rub_..."

Men are more likely to succumb to alcoholism[0]

Men are more likely to succumb to gambling problems[1]

An estimated 84% of homeless are male in the UK[2]

Alcoholism and gambling are some choice indicators of inequality that Tony
Judt liked to reference in Ill Fares the Land[3]. The gender disparity is well
documented at the top (e.g. Gender diversity for C-level) but this is the 1%
of the 1%. I'm not denying that the lack of diversity is alarming but these
men are the men that bested many other men. However the fact that there is a
lack of diversity on both sides of the spectrum seems to be an inconvenient
truth that most prefer to avoid.

[0][http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15533281](http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15533281)

[1][https://www.responsiblegambling.vic.gov.au/newsroom/media-
re...](https://www.responsiblegambling.vic.gov.au/newsroom/media-
releases/2014/gender-gap-highlighted-in-new-gambling-study)

[2][https://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2013/may/07/men-
ge...](https://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2013/may/07/men-gender-
divide-feminism)

[3][https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/0718191412/](https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/0718191412/)

~~~
dreta
don’t forget the lack of help for male domestic abuse victims

------
holdenc
It would be interesting to see incidences distributed over different types of
divorce outcomes.

------
wyldfire
Is the incidence increasing over time? That wasn't clear from what I read. It
says the incidence is high but doesn't include data about how it changes over
time.

------
jomamaxx
Men are far more likely to die from all sorts of things, esp. occupational
hazards. Nobody cares.

~~~
cloakandswagger
There are far more pressing injustices to prosecute, like the male/female
"wage gap" [0]

[http://www.forbes.com/sites/karinagness/2016/04/12/dont-
buy-...](http://www.forbes.com/sites/karinagness/2016/04/12/dont-buy-into-the-
gender-pay-gap-myth/#295431f14766)

~~~
erroneousfunk
Right, men tend to take on jobs that are physically demanding, or may have
more dangerous aspects at higher rates. The reasons are complex. Pressure to
support a family or make more money despite potential harm to themselves,
unwillingness to turn down difficult assignments to avoid seeming weak,
valuing personal strength and "toughness," less dangerous jobs are unavailable
for their experience and/or location and they have to take whatever's
available (again, social pressure means they "have" to work in the first
place, no matter what the job is). Social stigma towards blue collar workers
and manual laborers, and getting trapped in these jobs due to an inability to
find safer employment while doing them.

Women tend to take on jobs that pay less, have fewer responsibilities, or they
take more time away from the workforce. The reasons are complex. Pressure to
devote more time and energy towards family and childcare directly, and
conversely, less pressure to support the family financially -- sometimes even
before children enter the picture. Inability to get childcare support from
spouse/family/outside sources, not wanting to seem too "tough" or
"aggressive," avoiding social stigma towards working mothers, pulling out of
the workforce to avoid restrictive maternity leave policies, difficulties re-
entering the workforce afterwards.

Lots of people face lots of problems.

------
ransom1538
There is a decent documentary that watches a few teams respond to "Gun
Violence" (1). It was basically a tour of people shooting themselves or their
family. A bizarre left turn into mental health questions and responsibilities.
It is clear that, of ~33k gun deaths (2) - most are suicides. Meanwhile,
homicide is almost non-exisitant (3) - but it is all i see on the news :(

1) [http://www.hbo.com/documentaries/requiem-for-the-dead-
americ...](http://www.hbo.com/documentaries/requiem-for-the-dead-american-
spring-2014)

2) "11,208 homicides (3.5 per 100,000); 21,175 suicides; 505 deaths due to
accidental/negligent discharge of a firearm; and 2818 deaths due to firearms-
use with "undetermined"
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_violence_in_the_United_Sta...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_violence_in_the_United_States)

3) [http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-06-16/fbi-us-homicide-
rat...](http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-06-16/fbi-us-homicide-rate-51-year-
low)

~~~
sevenless
11K deaths from homicide isn't "almost non existent". Now it is true the
burden is concentrated in young males, especially black males. This is not to
say a death from homicide is intrinsically more important than from suicide,
that firearms aren't linked to higher suicide rates, or that gun suicide isn't
worth preventing - clearly it is.

As for why the news focuses on homicide, especially spectacular mass murders,
"if it bleeds it leads".

~~~
BirdieNZ
I don't know about other countries, but in New Zealand, the media specifically
doesn't report on suicides (or omits the cause of death, if it's a high
profile death by suicide). This is because of the fear of copy-cat suicides.

~~~
elbrownos
I didn't realise it's actually illegal for media to report suicides in NZ.

[http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/80143183/New-Zealand-
suicide...](http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/80143183/New-Zealand-suicide-
reporting-laws-due-to-change-heres-what-you-need-to-know)

------
slackstation
Why do we get mired with the attempts quagmire? If you look at depression and
suicidal thoughts as a disease, the death rate is gendered.

Men die more from suicide yet society shows more sympathy and support for
women. That makes sense since society was basically built to protect women and
ensure that offspring had stable diligent parents. This leads to society
enshrining the protections of women and children at the (relative)
disadvantage of men.

~~~
DanBC
> Why do we get mired with the attempts quagmire?

Because if women start to use more lethal methods we'll see their rates of
death overtake men. We care about attempted suicide, and self harm, because we
want to reduce the rates of attempted suicide and of completed suicide.

------
throwaway9123
I am a guy. I narrowly avoided suicide around 18. I should first note that I'm
doing much better these days.

If there is anything scarier than attempting suicide, it would be the thought
of surviving it. Permanent disfigurement, crippling, or chronic pain would
only make life all the worse - and a second attempt would be made all the
harder by well meaning family, police, and doctors. One thinks to be thorough,
or to not try at all.

Scarier than keeping quiet about your demons, is the thought of being forced
to confront them. You don't _want_ to talk and dwell on such a depressing
subject, when depression is the very thing you're trying to run from. Outward
silence mirrors a desperate attempt to achieve inner silence.

Manly ideals such as the ability to shoulder burden, and self reliance, can
worsen the problem. Why share such deeply personal problems, if you think
others can't help you with them? After all, if even you yourself can't lick
the problem - you who surely best knows yourself - what chance do others have?
You'll only depress others. You'll only depress yourself further.

.

I survived the peak of my first depression thanks to a fear of hell. The
second, by knowing my ex still cared about me, even if she did not still care
to _be_ with me. I couldn't be that selfish.

A decade later, and long walks are for exercise and a break - not an excuse to
cross tall bridges. I fight the good fight: I try to exercise. To eat well. To
sleeping well and fully. To socialize regularly. To enjoy the sun. To enjoy
nature. To eliminate stress. I have a career. I rarely crunch.

Medication would probably help. I'd still like a meaning to life. Maybe Love,
again, but love is hard work - and even after all this time, is it prudent to
risk a _third_ heartbreak? I'm better now, and take care of myself better, but
in doing so I've also learned a healthy amount of selfishness...

.

It's 7AM, and I should sleep. Back to silence. I will sleep well, and wake
refreshed tomorrow. Be kind to and take care of each other, and do the same
for yourselves. Make friends instead of enemies, even if that means funny
hobbies instead of important politics sometimes. Smile, laugh, and try to
share the joys of life. They may not always shine as brightly, but it's easier
to find your way towards life if the path is at least lit.

~~~
zpharer
Good luck on your journey.

If you ever do find yourself on the fence about getting professional help,
please try it. You may find yourself pleasantly surprised.

------
cloudjacker
"These explanations suggest that when compared with suicidal women, men who
reach the point of suicidal action are: [More X, More Y, More Z].... Despite
some limited theoretical and empirical support, we currently lack strong
evidence to support these explanations."

Welp there goes the whole thread guys

Any follow up study?

~~~
roghummal
X, Y, Z, A, B, C:

• hopeless.

• clearly resolved to die.

• likely to be intoxicated and thus more disinhibited.

• willing to carry out actions that might leave them injured or disfigured.

• unconcerned with consequenc­es because of a high risk-taking orientation.

• likely to have a greater capacity to enact lethal self-injury.

------
ThatGeoGuy
Note for those who didn't notice: although this appears to be the first time
this has been posted to Hacker News, it was from 2011.

dang: Add (2011) to the title?

------
wingless
Men are disposable. This idea is wired inside the deepest, most primal part
our brains. There are a few possible solutions to this. We could evolve
ourselves and change our brains. We could tip the gender population ratio in
favor of women, so that men would be more sought after. The easiest way to
achieve the latter is by simply giving parents the power to choose their kid's
gender. Assuming parents are rational agents, they will choose the most
valuable gender for their kid, which will bring the genders into an
equilibrium.

------
pessimizer
I wonder why an analysis of comparative rates of male/female self-murder seems
to ignore that men murder others (in the U.S.) at around 5 or 6 times the rate
of women. The differences seem comparable and very related. I see postulation
that men have unique problems, but not any consideration of the fact that men
have shown a greater urge to kill in general.

I may have just missed it.

~~~
ank_the_elder
Is that the actual murder rate or the conviction rate? Remember that women are
less likely to be convicted than men are.

~~~
pessimizer
[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1635092](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1635092)

I think the way you're using "actual murder rate" here is by definition an
unknowable number. Do you have the actual comparable likelihood of the
conviction of women and men with the same evidence?

Is there actually any real question that men kill far more than women do?

------
fatdog
So the reason men kill themselves is "because, men?" I get that is sufficient
for the sort of people for whom, "because, women," or "because, men," is
explanatory, but maybe something social changed in the last 40 years?

When you control for hard drugs like the mari-huana, heavy metal music, D&D,
violent video games, rap music, marylin manson, the fast and the furious
sequels, and toxic masculinity, surely there is something that must shake out.

