
Italy referendums: Lombardy and Veneto 'back greater autonomy' - dmichulke
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-41712263
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zakk
Venetian here, let me state a few facts about this:

1) The referendum in Veneto was supported by the Venetian section of all major
parties, across all the political spectrum.

2) In Italy five regions have a far greater degree of autonomy for historical
reasons. Many Comuni (city councils) voted to leave Veneto to join nearby
Trentino Alto-Adige just for this far greater autonomy. The proponents of the
referendum would like to see more federalism in Italy, e.g. following the
German model.

3) Italy is very divided from an economical point of view. Veneto and Lombardy
may be easily compared to the richest German industrial districts, whereas the
South's economy is not so different from Greece. Taxation in Italy is very
high, and a lot of money gets redistributed from the rich North to the poorer
South. To make a long story short each citizen from Veneto gives about 5000€
per year to each citizen in the South. Edit: see noisymemories's comment
below, often the money is lost in a maze of entities and inefficiency.

I perfectly acknowledge a country should redistribute wealth, but many
perceive that this redistribution is too high and unfair, and call for a less
centralized Italy.

4) Italy is a young country, with 150 years of history, whereas Veneto has
millenium-long story as the Serenissima Republic. The Venetian language is
widespread alongside Italian, and many (again, across all political spectrum)
have stronger ties to the Venetian heritage rather than to the Italian
heritage.

~~~
bl4ckm0r3
1) Of course 2) Autonomy doesn't allow the type of independence you are
looking for 3) It is very much, and for different reasons, but if your problem
is redistribution of wealth on a national level, but not on a local it just
means that you feel that southern Italy isn't Italy as much as Veneto is.
Which isn't really a great thing in 2017 4) Rome and Naples have longer and
definitely more impactful histories. we should be moving toward the future,
instead of still grasping toward a few historical myths of the past (la
serenissima fell on the 18th century).

It really sickens me to see people supporting segregation, separation and
justify their ignorance with some historical fact that has no ties to the
present.

For what I personally care, Veneto and Lombardia could become their own
countries, but let's just call things with their names instead of finding
silly justifications.

~~~
mk89
The reference to "la serenissima" is simply ludicrous, yet I see more and more
often such things (in other countries as well).

When people are unhappy with the present (for any possible reason, like being
"just average", which is not necessarily a bad thing, among one of them), they
look back to the past, to some "glorious times".

However, they only look at the most successful moment[s], they never wonder
how things built up, how they got lost, etc. It's much easier, because this
way you can blame it on someone else, instead of rolling up your sleeves and
work to create a (more) decent environment.

~~~
zakk
This is incredibly offensive and ignorant.

I am happy with my present, however I am surrounded by Venetian culture,
everywhere around me, from my native Venetian language, to monuments in my
city, from food and traditions to street names in the Venetian language.

Everywhere around me speaks of my Venetian heritage.

Venetian are hard-working people, after WW2 Veneto went from an
underdeveloped, rural region to one of the richest regions in Italy, whose
per-capita GDP compares with that of the richest German industrial districts.

Still, people always felt deeply bound to their Serenissima roots. It’s not a
matter of unhappiness or hard times, it’s a matter of a millennial history
that pervades the whole region and cannot be denied.

------
bl4ckm0r3
Lombardy voted to have more control regarding immigration and safety, Veneto
to change their taxes and have more control in the "residuo fiscale" (what's
left of taxes after all the administration costs has been covered). Neither is
allowed by the concept of regional autonomy in Italy. Unfortunately, just like
any other "independence" request these days, it's just a move to avoid helping
poorer states and drawing a thick libe between "us and them". They have been
talking about it for years, they just jumped on the latest speedwagon.

~~~
joeminichino
Honestly - how long more can Lombardy help the South. The freaking dogs on the
street know about the Cassa Del Mezzogiorno. My father emigrated from Naples
in the 60s and found a job in Lombardy, where he met my (Lombard) mother. I
emigrated from Lombardy to Ireland. Not advocating emigration at all costs,
but certainly governments of the last 50 years have advocated centralization
and unfair redistribution of wealth to the detriment and frustration of the
North. The South of Italy has so much potential (between UNESCO/POIs sites and
wonderful landscape, tourism alone would get everybody employed year round),
how it remained poor all these years is a mystery that goes beyond reductive
punts on organized crime.

~~~
bl4ckm0r3
organised crime is everywhere in italy, there is a long going conversation to
understand the "south situation" in italy, it has historical roots, lack of
investments and political corruption on a national level that put investments
into the hands of the local mafias.

~~~
joeminichino
Falcone (a man who knew a thing or 50 about organized crime) said that once
you have taken money out of the hands of organized crime they are dead. Freeze
accounts, suspend influx, cut the pipe. Without subventions to the south, the
Mafia has nowhere to pick that money up.

~~~
noisymemories
And this is the reason why the referendum will go basically nowhere, by the
way.

~~~
joeminichino
can you elaborate?

~~~
noisymemories
Sorry for the late answer. What I mean is, If this is going to actually affect
the money flow from North Italy to... basically the black hole which is the
political and criminal ecosystem of Southern politics, well - Let's just say
they got quite convincing "arguments" to make sure Zaia & Co. backtrack on
their positions. And I'm not even talking about by violent means.

------
rumcajz
> One of the regions' main complaints is that they send much more in taxes to
> Rome than they get back in public spending, and want to roughly halve their
> contribution.

This seems to be the common denominator a lot of the independence movements in
Europe and, possibly, elsewhere. The desire to keep the profits in urbanized
centers while still being able to sell their stuff, without tariffs,
elsewhere.

------
gfiorav
It’s just funny how the modern nationalist and xenofobe believe they’re “super
cool and progressive”.

Let’s never forget the horrors of a disassembled Europe, filled with
nationalists and xenofobes.

~~~
dmichulke
The biggest horrors of mankind coincide with strong power monopolies, most
obvious in dictatorships in big nation states.

In other words:

\- There was rarely a democratic vote on "let's just kill X" with X being a
religious, ethnic or whatever group.

\- There was rarely a small state committing horrible crimes of epic
proportions. Partly because they don't have the means, partly because it's
easier to flee small states, partly due to other reasons.

~~~
khuey
Pol Pot may not have matched Mao/Stalin/Hitler/etc's death toll but he did
kill 25% of Cambodia. The Rwandan genocide wiped out more than half of the
Tutsis in the country. Small states are perfectly capable of genocide.

------
salqadri
Umm; did they just contradict themselves? "We remain inside the Italian nation
with more autonomy while Catalonia wants to become the 29th state of the
European Union. We, no. Not for now." \- So, they don't want to be seen like
Catalonia, yet they say "Not for now" meaning they must be seen as such. I
think the whole theory of giving certain regions extra autonomy while
expecting that region to forever be part of the unified country has now been
completely dumped.

~~~
daurnimator
As far as I see it, they need the threat of independence so that they aren't
ignored. "we aren't looking at it now, but if you don't consider our tax
proposal, we'll have no choice but to look at independance more seriously"

~~~
bonzini
It's not a tax proposal, and it's depressing how many people voted thinking it
was one.

In Lombardy it's about a list of 23 special topics, which the Constitution
says are legislated by both State and regions. The Constitution also says that
regions can agree with the central government on getting exclusive legislation
on some or all of these topics. There was no need even to have a referendum to
start the process. And there is no money on the table, but the president of
the region kept mentioning "30 billion euros" which reminds me of the NHS and
the British referendum. Not coincidentally, the president is running for
reelection in 6 months.

In Veneto the question was simply "would you like more autonomy" without
saying what and how. After voting, the president said it's about the 23 topics
plus keeping tax money in Veneto. The latter however would require amending
the Constitution, which in turn requires either a 2/3 supermajority in both
houses, or a simple majority plus a referendum across all of Italy. It's just
not going to happen. Constitutional changes have happened in the past, through
either a supermajority or a referendum, but this one has no choice of passing.
Regardless, a referendum was unnecessary there too.

Both referendums were a huge waste of money, basically amounting to
campaigning with public money. They were a farce just like the one in
Catalunya, but they were both completely legal and independence from Italy is
not on the table anywhere, with the exception of a few nutjobs (equally
subdivided among both rich and poor regions).

Addendum: Lombardy played with electronic voting; votes from the opposition
were needed to do the referendum, because according to the regional statute
referendums need a supermajority, and one opposition party agreed to vote on
the condition that voting would be electronic. The president kept boasting
about how we would have known the results five minutes after closing the
ballot (it takes about three hours to do manual counting), yet 10 hours after
we do not even know precisely how many people have voted.

~~~
joeminichino
> yet 10 hours after we do not even know precisely how many people have voted.

hehe - and that's why this piece of news is on hacker news.

------
mrweasel
It fascinating that while our politicians seek ever closer EU integration, the
public seems to want more local government.

~~~
zakk
The two options are not mutually exclusive. Think of Germany: each Länder has
a great degree of autonomy (similar to what this referendum is asking for
Lombardy and Veneto) and still the country as a whole is one of pillars of
Europe.

