
Coffee wars: South Korea's cafe boom nears saturation point - jseliger
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-southkorea-coffee-idUSKCN0X12GF?feedType=RSS&feedName=businessNews
======
dmix
The gas station near my house in Toronto got a "Costa" coffee machine which
makes a better latte than the coffee shop next door to it. It has a touch
screen and can make anything from americano, cappuccino, hot chocolate, drip
coffee, etc. It also has the same cane sugar offered at Starbucks.

The price was also 30%+ cheaper than the coffeeshop and it was ready
relatively fast.

The machine also plays music and ambient coffeeshop sounds when it's making
the coffee. Nice UX touch.

It's pretty amazing that availability of quality coffee is becoming so
widespread now. If more of these machines start spreading it's going to add
ever more competition to small coffeeshops.

~~~
rdtsc
One day coffee shops should just have machines like that, but still look
inviting and warm, artwork on the walls, earthy color schemes.

Heck might even have a "barrista", but they just press the button on the
machine. But then machine automatically drops a cup and makes your drink.

You order by voice or even better via an app on your phone, ahead of time, as
you get closer to the store it starts to make it so when you step in, it is
ready.

I wouldn't be upset a bit if the barrista got paid the same, and instead spent
more time interacting with customers, or picking music, and kicking out people
who have camped there for the last 5 hours after buying a $2 cookie.

But to be serious, I don't understand why coffee making still needs a human
for measuring, timing and mixing things. Just guessing that a machine will be
more consistent with all the variables (temperature, water, coffee, milk
mixture etc), and will be more efficient as well.

~~~
seanmcdirmid
Starbucks already tried that, from
[https://consumerist.com/2007/06/22/confessions-of-a-
starbuck...](https://consumerist.com/2007/06/22/confessions-of-a-starbucks-
barista/)

> A few years ago, Starbucks made the jump to automatic espresso machines.
> Standard procedure for pulling a shot of espresso requires grinding into the
> portafilter, tamping it down, locking it into the espresso machine, and
> pressing the button to start the water. The Starbucks machine does all of
> this with the touch of one button – it also stores the coffee grounds as
> compressed pucks in a drawer that needs to be emptied only twice a day. This
> saves a lot of time for baristas, especially when there’s a long line. The
> shots themselves are very good for an automatic machine. But these machines
> cost about ten thousand dollars apiece compared to about three thousand for
> a quality manual commercial grade espresso machine. That’s a lot of money to
> recoup at about two dollars for a double shot. Not to mention that Starbucks
> also pays its employees a higher wage than most coffee shops because they
> don’t make as much tips working at Starbucks. The cost of operating a
> Starbucks is astronomical. But the quality is there.

And then [http://www.idea-sandbox.com/blog/solving-starbucks-
problems-...](http://www.idea-sandbox.com/blog/solving-starbucks-
problems-1-loss-of-theatre/) :

> When we went to automatic espresso machines, we solved a major problem in
> terms of speed of service and efficiency. At the same time, we overlooked
> the fact that we would remove much of the romance and theatre that was in
> play with the use of the La Marzocco* machines. This specific decision
> became even more damaging when the height of the machines, which are now in
> thousands of stores, blocked the visual sight line the customer previously
> had to watch the drink being made, and for the intimate experience with the
> barista.

~~~
IkmoIkmo
Thanks! Real quick, what happened? Did they end the project? Seems to me at
least 1 employee could be replaced by such a machine, the machine costs ten
thousand once (+ maintenance and replacement), the employee costs tens of
thousands every year. (i.e. you make about $9-10 at Starbucks as a Barista,
but it costs Starbucks at least $12, that's $25k per year per FTE). I don't
see how they brought up cost. Although I'm not surprised people don't want to
order at a mini factory haha, at least not yet.

~~~
seanmcdirmid
I'm guessing they didn't replace them after wearing out, and didn't put them
in new stores. I don't think it actually saved much labor, a partner is still
needed to man the bar, there was more work to do than just drawing shots.
Also, people were part of the Starbucks experience, it wasn't just a coffee
factory.

Now if someone invented an automatic frapiccino machine, I'm sure many
Starbucks partners would be begging for it.

------
aaron695
A quote from The Atlantic article on Gangnam Style

"In the song, the narrator says he’s looking for a classy lady who can afford
a relaxing cup of coffee and he’s a real man who downs the boiling hot coffee
in one go. And I think some of you may be wondering why he's making such a big
deal out of coffee, but it’s not just your ordinary coffee; it's gotta be a
cup of Starbucks coffee if you will. In Korea, there’s a joke poking fun at
women who eat 2,000-won (about $2) ramyeon (Korean style ramen) for lunch and
then unstintingly spend over 6,000 won (about $5.30) on Starbucks coffee.
Actually, the word Doenjangnyeo (“Soybean paste girl/woman”) or Doenjang
girl/woman was created to mock women who spend more than they can afford. Such
crazes were believed to be inspired by HBO’s “Sex and the City” in which the
designer stuff-obsessed women frequently meet together to talk over brunch or
coffee. "

------
drawnwren
Posting from a cafe (Ediya's flagship store) in South Korea: This article
completely misses the point. Cafes in South Korea aren't about coffee so much
as having a space to be in. Most of the young generation either live with
their family or in very small spaces. The coffee is notoriously bad at almost
every one of the coffee shops. However, they do offer free wifi and couches so
you'll see them packed with everything from businessmen to students.

While 'good coffee' is a marketing point that some newer cafes are using to
differentiate themselves from the competition, it has never been the point of
cafes here.

You can find good coffee in Seoul, but you really have to search for it. I
recommend The Pancake Epidemic
([http://www.thepancakeepidemic.com](http://www.thepancakeepidemic.com)). I am
not affiliated.

~~~
atom-morgan
This was by far the biggest disappointment when I went to Korea a few years
ago. The shops looked amazing and the coffee tasted like mud. And it was
expensive!

------
danso
A little off-topic and probably totally unrelated, but hearing about South
Korea and an oversaturation of coffee shops in the same sentence/headline made
me immediately think of my many workdays spent at Think Coffee in Greenwich
Village...every once in awhile, a mob of Asian tourists would come in and take
pictures as if it were Times Square, and I just chalked it up to the
stereotype of Asian tourist groups being overly enthusiastic about taking
photos of everything...but it turns out Think Coffee really was a destination
for South Korean tourists, as I found out later from this NYT article:

[http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/09/21/a-coffee-
shop-a...](http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/09/21/a-coffee-shop-as-seen-
on-tv-becomes-a-must-see-for-south-koreans/)

I don't understand Korean, but the reality show that visited Think Coffee
looks hilarious. But what's even funnier to me is the mystique that New York
has...such that something as mundane as ordering an espresso drink could have
global entertainment value...when it's done at a Manhattan coffee shop.

~~~
morgante
Thanks for sharing the article and story!

I've spent a lot of time in that coffee shop (mostly studying for exams), but
always just ascribed the tourists to the standard NYC backdrop.

------
djrobstep
Visited Seoul a month ago and there are indeed a crazy number of coffee shops.
Quite expensive and very chain-dominated: Starbucks and various clones, I
assume because of the prestige factor of being American (completely the
opposite to where I'm from, where Starbucks is regarded as undrinkable watery
garbage). You have to look a lot harder to find a non-chain shop.

~~~
pcurve
There are many, but they don't stand out and are out of the way. And it's
impossible to tell which ones are good without trying.

Regular ice americano was $4.50-$5.00 there, more than double what I pay in
the states. I do ok here in the states riding the healthcare IT gravy choo
choo train, and I don't know if i'd ever pay that much for a cup here.

So I was shocked at the number of people that paid $4-$5 for a cup of coffee
there.

~~~
seanmcdirmid
In Switzerland, I paid > 10 CHF for a drink and a croissant at Starbucks (and
that was...8 years ago).

~~~
david-given
These days in Zürich you'll pay 5 to 7 francs for a coffee and probably 3 to 4
francs for a gipfel, so that's still pretty much dead on.

Although that is at a real café, not a Starbucks. I haven't been into one for
a couple of years so YMMV.

~~~
seanmcdirmid
Real European cafes don't seem to believe in plushy comfy chairs...it is one
American cultural innovation that I'm greatly addicted to (but I'm also a
seattlite).

------
ghshephard
Singapore is pretty coffee crazy as well, having their local variant, "Kopi"
\- which is pretty horrid unless you drink it with sweetened condensed milk or
carnation milk+sugar. My Condo, international plaza in the Central Business
District, has no less than seven coffee shops on the first floor (one, "Joe
and Dough", just opened last week. Their "Western Style" Americano, at SG$4.50
was foul to the point of being undrinkable).

They all over charge for a drip coffee (Typically SG$4.00 - SG$5.00), make you
wait way too long, and honestly aren't delivering a particularly impressive
product (even the Coffee Bean and Tea Leaf coffee is meh.)

Ironically - I leave the building every day to walk to McDonalds, which, for
SG$2.70 has an absolutely _excellent_ cup of coffee, and, even better, as soon
as they see me walking towards the door they are pouring it and have it ready
for me.

~~~
objectivistbrit
How's life as a tech guy in Singapore? I'm thinking of relocating there.

(I've lived in Hong Kong and China, so I'm not an Asia noob, but Singapore
seemed better as a long-term place to settle).

~~~
ghshephard
I came here directly from the valley after 16+ years. It's a super safe, clean
place to live with almost unlimited (and awesome) places to eat, and tons of
stuff to do outside (if you don't mind a little bit of heat), along with super
cheap transportation (taxis, MRT, and Buses). Housing is pretty expensive -
though you can find some reasonable places - keeping in mind that the locals
have never heard of CraigsList, so if you look for a place there, it's
targeted at ExPats (PropertyGuru is a more common tool for locals, in much the
same way Burpple is superior to yelp). Owning a car is pretty pricey as you
would have to pay $60K or so for a "Certificate of Entitlement" just for the
_right_ to purchase a car.

But, you asked, as a "Tech Guy" \- and, with the exception of SimLim
Towers/Squares (which are awesome electronics outlets - even better than Frys)
- I feel a little out of the stream of things here, in ways I never did back
in the valley. I used to go out all the time and hang out with colleagues who
had worked for startups Two, Three, four generations back and were at yet a
new startup, building new technology.

That sort of liquidity and networking doesn't seem to be happening here in
Singapore (that I've discovered, perhaps there are niches - I know that there
is an Ubisoft office here). So, that's the challenge - I know 500+ people back
in Silicon Valley that I've worked with through one startup after another -
and I know maybe 5 people here in Singapore 3 years later. It's not like you
go to work for a company here that starts with 6 people, and grows to 600 in
five years (which I've done a couple times now in the valley) - particularly
if you are working for a branch of a company based out of somewhere else.

Taxes are great though.

~~~
voidnothings
Is it the same case at Ayer Rajah? The last time I checked it's more vibrant
compared to 2 years ago. Where are you working at?

------
kriro
Since this is HN I'll venture to ask a slightly off topic question: Has anyone
here build their own coffee maker and would like to share the story? I own a
mid range (800 Euro) machine but am growing a bit tired of having only one
bean slot. The price jump up to multi slot seems a bit excessive and it would
be an interesting project to DIY. I'd also love the option to access and
reprogram the machine in fun ways. It's one of the few use cases for IoT that
could interest me...link the maker with an alarm clock (or maybe a sensor in
the shower) and have a freshly brewed cup ready just in time in the morning.

It seems like a fairly complex project to my not very electronics oriented
brain. The chances of me ever building one are slim but I'd really enjoy
reading about a project or two (I found a couple but they weren't tinkery
enough for my liking).

~~~
jacobolus
By “coffee maker” do you mean coffee roaster? Espresso machine? Little cheapo
drip coffeepot?...

What does “one bean slot” mean?

What type of coffee do you like? In general, if you’re making coffee for 1–3
people, I’d recommend a french press, a pour-over dripper, or an Aeropress.
All three are simple objects without motors or electronics. Next step is to
get a nice burr grinder. Hand-crank ones can be kind of annoying to use, an
electric one will put you back about $200.

An espresso machine with reasonable quality is going to cost a lot more than
any of those.

I don’t think there’s too much value in adding DIY electronics to a device
which brews coffee; you could build something gimmicky, but you probably won’t
end up with a better cup of coffee. A coffee roaster on the other hand could
be pretty interesting to customize.

~~~
kriro
I think it translates to fully automated coffee machine. Grinder+brewing
department+UI. Something like a Bosch VeroSelection. They usually have some
settings for the grinder and you can select different kinds/sizes of coffee.
And that's the problem. There's one container for the beans but you can
theoretically select coffee or espresso. What I was talking about was the need
for one container for regular coffee beans and one for espresso beans (or just
different roast would be nice as well). I agree that everything else would
mostly be gimmicky (even though regulating pressure, water temperature etc. in
a more open format would be great) but it would be gimmicks I enjoy like
remotely starting it from an app if I enter certain GPS coordinates around a
certain time (off from work) or when the shower stops in the morning. I'd
probably also get a kick out of statistics and graphs of coffee consumption.

p.s.: I do own an Aeropress (+hand-crank burr grinder) and use it but the
machine is quicker in the morning where I'm notoriously late no matter when I
get up. It's mostly a matter of convenience as the quality is better when I
use the Aeropress (but the machine is good enough given great beans of
course). I love the control you have with an Aeropress+grinder and that's a
good reason to build a DIY machine as the typical ones you get don't allow you
to control nearly enough stuff. I also enjoy the process of making the coffee
but sometimes I want that tiny extra bit of convenience (even willing to trade
it for slightly less good coffee)

------
rmac
Just got back from Vietnam (Hanoi and Saigon) and the amount of coffee
storefronts/cafes is nuts.

It seems every other store is a cafe.

Highland coffee is the 'Starbucks' of Vietnam

~~~
joelrunyon
As someone who works out of coffee shops quite a bit, Saigon was amazing (same
with Chiang Mai in Thailand).

Amazing coffee, cheap wifi, good food and no one cares if you camp out a bit.

I was there for a week on a "workcation" and spent about 10 days bouncing from
shop to shop without hitting up the same one twice. 10/10\. Would go again.

------
jeyraof
In my place (Seoul, Korea), there are many many and many coffee shop (aka
cafe) without having individuality. Furthermore franchise brand like Starbucks
beat personal cafes.

------
partycoder
Does Seoul have more coffee shops than Seattle?

~~~
khc
The article says yes

