
How Children in a Maya Village Do Chores - curtis
https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2018/06/09/616928895/how-to-get-your-kids-to-do-chores-without-resenting-it
======
DoreenMichele
_" The Mexican-American kids, aged 6 to 7, were doing about twice as much
around the house as the middle-class European-American kids, on average,"_

It's implied but not outright stated in the above quote: We are talking about
households that are much, much poorer on average than "middle-class European-
American kids." This is backed up by the photos in the article.

So, if you have nothing else to do because your parents don't have the
resources to supply you with a TV, a video game system, a tablet, a computer,
a cell phone, etc ad nauseum, then you can either sit around twiddling your
thumbs and dying of boredom or you can involve yourself in whatever the
nearest human is doing as a means to occupy yourself.

The other piece of that is that poorer cultures wind up naturally more people
centered than richer cultures, which wind up more thing centered. When my kids
were little and we didn't have much, they learned to take turns and share not
because of some kind of cultural magic, but because we didn't have a lot of
stuff, so they basically had to share. In a family wealthy enough to have one
of X for each and every family member (or whatever), then you don't need to
learn to share or take turns. You just use your thing and leave their thing
alone.

I'm all for promoting more real involvement with kids so they are better
socialized, etc. But I think there are very big problems with acting like
culture evolves separate from material wealth and details like that.

~~~
jacobolus
There are some other important differences:

(1) Extended families live in a small area. There are many nieces and nephews
and cousins so kids are playing in a big group of family and other neighbors,
and e.g. girls start taking care of younger family members starting when they
are 5 or 6 years old.

(2) People work close to home, on work that is more or less comprehensible to
a child, and often in groups. A group of people farming, minding sheep,
weaving, washing clothes by hand, milling grain, cooking, chopping wood,
making furniture, foraging for mushrooms, hunting rabbits, ... can easily get
kids involved in small tasks.

(3) People spend much of the day talking to each other, gossiping, cracking
jokes, singing together, eating together, ... instead of reading or doing
other solitary activities, spending time at remote jobs, driving around in
cars, etc.

But yeah we definitely shouldn’t romanticize rural poverty. Having years where
nobody has enough food and all the old sick people die, commonly getting hit
by disease epidemics, spending a whole life on hard menial labor and ending up
with a totally wrecked body by age 50, sitting in small totally smoke-filled
rooms over a wood cookfire every day (this is as bad or worse for health than
the heaviest cigarette smoking), sleeping on a board or on a dirt floor with a
blanket covered in fleas, needing to make your own cloth from scratch for
anything, needing to carry water long distances on foot every day for all
washing and drinking, .... are all pretty unpleasant.

And let’s not even start on the part where rural peasants are constantly
getting beat up and having stuff stolen from them (or worse) by colonial
overlords, foreign corporations, local thugs, ...

There’s a reason that when given the choice a large proportion of people flee
rural peasant villages and move to (sometimes distant) cities, even when
further exploitation awaits there.

~~~
DoreenMichele
My mother is one of 12 kids. My father grew up on a farm, dirt poor. Your
description to some degree fits my childhood. There were some really good
things about growing up that way.

But I was not thinking about _romanticizing rural poverty._ I was thinking
about unfairly vilifying modern people whose choices grow out of wildly
different circumstances, as if "your children should be doing more chores!" is
yet one more metric to feel pressured by because two career couples trying to
keep the family housed in a world where you can't afford to have a full-time
parent at home really need yet one more reason to feel like failures who just
aren't trying hard enough.

~~~
watwut
You dont need full time parent at home. That is really not the need. I also
agree that "your child should do more chores" is just another guilt tripping
of parents. If your child is lazy to wash dishes after dinner, absolutely
needs to do more. But, as long as the child contributes without temper
tamtrump to age-appropriate activities you all do and are needed (and still
have time to learn and play), it is perfectly fine.

There is no need to artificially emulate a group of people living in different
environment and situation.

~~~
DoreenMichele
My recollection is you are not American. America has this romanticized ideal
from the 1950s of a nuclear family with a full-time provider (the father), a
full-time parent (the mother) and 2 or more children. This has not been
reality for quite a long time. Our demographics have diverged from that in
recent decades. But that mental model continues to basically poison American
life, in part by dictating cultural norms that work for that lifestyle and
don't work for any other.

If you come from a different context, maybe that doesn't need to be said. But
in America, it very often needs to be said that a lot of Americans can't
afford to live that way anymore because, if you don't say it, the assumption
is "You neglectful parents, selfishly pursuing careers instead of taking care
of your kids." Because America is very neurotic about some things.

~~~
watwut
Yes, you recall right.

I think that romanticism you talk about is inconsistent too. There is romantic
memory of "playing outside alone whole day coming back only when lights are
out" and criticism of todays parents who dont allow that. Simultaneously, when
the kid is playing alone for an hour and half after school because parent is
in work, then it is treated like a neglect.

I used to go from school to extracurricular activity alone (sport, music,
whatever) and then home and then be alone for around an hour or two and it was
no big deal for anyone.

And that period also spawned go-to-work kind of feminism which I fully
understood only after I spent some time at home. Like, as much as everyone
talks about it as luxury, I was really really unhappy and it affected a lot
(including how I am with kids). For all the "most important thing in the
world" rhetoric, it is just that, rhetoric and ideology designed to make you
feel ashamed if you don't like it and make you shut up about it. Because it is
supposed to be luxury you should be thankful about, despite that lifestyle not
being actual historical norm for most of population most of time (Housework in
the past was way more work then it is nowdays. Women did not played with
children all the time, they washed cloth, sewed, cooked, cared about animals
and what not most of time.).

~~~
DoreenMichele
Kids also really did play outside unsupervised more and/or with siblings,
cousins and friends to help keep them safe instead of an adult. I think some
larger fabric of social life has changed and we can't figure out how to
translate historical parenting patterns into modern life in a way that makes
sense.

I think a lot of parents feel very stressed right now and that fosters these
weird conclusions that "if only X piece were like the good old days,
everything would work" and it's just not true. Then "X piece" changes from one
conversation to the next, like the six blind men and the elephant. What we
don't realize is we mean we are dealing with an entirely different animal, so
to speak.

We need to somehow create a social fabric that is more parenting friendly
while not creating a social fabric that assumes every family is a nuclear
family or that actively promotes the idea that marriage and children is an
ideal to strive for. In the US, we absolutely haven't yet figured out how to
do that.

Some things that would likely help: a less car centered built environment and
universal health coverage.

~~~
watwut
I think that a lot of stress would go down if we stepped away from the idea
that parent must be that superhuman entity always perfect always present
always in control.

I have noted how quick people are to call parents lazy when parents choose
action that is practical to them. If parent looks at phone at playground,
parent is lazy and don't care and neglectful. Just, chill, people. If parent
is active, then it is helicoptering. Again, just chill, people, most likely it
is all ok and both kids will be fine.

I did not played with large group of friend who would look out to me. I had
few same age friends, no more responsible then me. So, i think that the change
is not just that. And also, per memories of my grandparents who had large pack
used to say "kids are cruel" because that was their experience of how large
unsupervised pack of kids acts.

~~~
DoreenMichele
The cruelties of familiar children, like siblings, cousins and neighbor kids,
are typically presumed to be less harmful than the cruelties of random
strangers who may be pedophiles etc.

I'm not saying its necessarily true. I'm just saying it tends to be less
feared.

Another thing that has changed is that people move a lot more. My parents
bought a house when I was three. I graduated high school with kids I went to
kindergarten with. Historically, buying a house for life was much more normal.
Knowing the same people for many years made it easier to calculate risks.

One of the reasons we have the saying "better the devil you know" is because
familiarity allows you to adapt and figure out coping mechanisms for known
problems. Unfamiliar territory routinely endangers you in unexpected ways at
unexpected times. Being caught unprepared can easily have worse outcomes than
familiar problems, even if those familiar problems are potentially equally
dangerous.

Americans haven't really learned yet good metrics for when to butt out and
when to feel responsible in some way for people they don't know all that well.
So, as a group, we butt in a lot when we shouldn't.

------
agotterer
My wife and I stumbled across this thinking recently. We have an 18 month old
and we started putting him to work. I rarely open or close a cabinet,
microwave or dishwasher if he’s around. We plop him on the counter when we
cook and he holds ingredients and utensils. Just today I was hanging something
on the wall so I had him hold the screwdriver for me. We found that he’s
thrilled to help and we never force him. Our initial intention was just to
keep him busy but I’ve seen two similar posts on HN recently and I’m now
realizing there’s a bigger social, reaponsibility, and familial lesson here.

~~~
SmellyGeekBoy
My Dad was like this with me. As I got older I got to support bits of wood he
was sawing, bleed radiators, drill holes, mix concrete, and even wire plugs
(under supervision, of course). These are some of my most fond memories
growing up.

Now I do all of the building and decorating work in my house myself. I was up
on the roof repointing ridge tiles yesterday, for example. My friends don't
understand but it's all just second nature to me. It saves a huge amount of
money and is very satisfying to live in a house that you've worked on
yourself.

These are definitely great skills to have, and even in this day and age of
being able to Google anything, just having the confidence to handle power
tools and the knowledge of what's possible makes all the difference.

------
gumby
Resonating with a point in the article about telling kids "you're not involved
in this task", I've noticed that my American neighbors are quite reluctant to
allow their kids to use knives, light candles, fill glasses, and some cooking
tasks that could result in a lot of mess. As what looks like a consequence
those kids are rarely able to help get dinner on the table when they come
over.

An uncharitable explanation would be overprotectiveness, but I wonder if it's
also simply a lack of time: if the kid is mixing a cake and the batter spills
on the floor it is additional work; if they cut their finger it will delay
everything. Whereas if you can help your kid become competent you can trust
them to look after themselves in more and more situations.

~~~
lubujackson
There is also a responsible way to teach them these skills. My wife bought my
3 year old a nylon knife which is sharp enough to cut strawberries and
potatoes but arguably safer than a butter knife. I was amazed how quickly he
took to using it and is SO EXCITED when he gets to help prep dinner.

I think an overarching child-rearing strategy we have used is to treat our
children as people who have valid needs and capabilities. Crazy, I know. But
you constantly see parents doing things like going out to dinner and drinking
wine for 3 hours while their bored 4 year old makes a scene, and they get
surprised and blame the kid. Our boy rarely flips out, partly because we
anticipate normal reactions and avoid putting him in bad situations. And the
long-term benefit of that is when we are forced into tough situations, like a
7 hour plane ride, he generally weathers it better because he isn't used to
suffering crappy situations all the time.

~~~
jacobolus
People have different ideas of “responsible”, and different levels of risk
they are comfortable with.

I read an article a year ago about an anthropologist doing field work
somewhere in a hunter-gatherer village in Africa marveling that a 9-month-old
baby was playing with a machete. The anthropologist asked the mother if she
was afraid the kid would get hurt. The mother said “he’ll figure out soon that
the machete is sharp, and then be careful after that.”

Personally handing a baby a machete is a bit much for me, but my not-quite-2
year old and I walk around barefoot all the time in the city, and people are
constantly asking me if I’m worried about broken glass or whatever.

~~~
PebblesRox
I love Teacher Tom's mindset. He views risky activities as essential for kids
to learn how to be safe. While supervision is important, meddling is
unhelpful. They can do a lot when we step back and let them explore their own
physical capabilities. I've adopted his phrase: "I won't help you, but I won't
let you get hurt."

[http://teachertomsblog.blogspot.com/2015/03/the-process-
of-r...](http://teachertomsblog.blogspot.com/2015/03/the-process-of-risk.html)

I love how he makes ridiculous suggestions so that his students use critical
thinking instead of blindly following authority:

'While plugging in a glue gun, I once said to a group of older kids, "Have you
ever tried sticking your finger into an electrical outlet?" They came down on
me like a house of bricks, "If we did that Teacher Tom, we would die!"'

[http://teachertomsblog.blogspot.com/2010/10/if-we-did-
that-t...](http://teachertomsblog.blogspot.com/2010/10/if-we-did-that-teacher-
tom-we-would-die.html)

My mindset with my son as he started walking and climbing was to allow him to
experience natural consequences as much as possible (within reasonable safety
limits, of course). I've been very impressed by how careful he is when
climbing.

[http://teachertomsblog.blogspot.com/2009/07/law-of-
natural-c...](http://teachertomsblog.blogspot.com/2009/07/law-of-natural-
consequences.html)

~~~
fjsolwmv
I don't understand. Obviously the kids learned that by their parental
authoritu drilling a false myth into their heads, not by direct experience and
critical thinking.

~~~
jacobolus
Not sure I would call this a “false myth”. Obviously most of the time these
shocks don’t cause serious injury, but from what I can tell from a quick web
search thousands of kids every year end up in the emergency room after
sticking stuff in wall sockets or grabbing cords with missing insulation.

Sure though, it would probably be better to let them play with circuits
plugged into a non-lethal battery and get a few minor zaps, then explain that
connecting a circuit with your body between the two sides of a wall socket
could cause severe burns, other serious health problems, or even a fatal
cardiac arrest if you are unlucky.

------
rossdavidh
Reminds me of something I read from Jared Diamond, wherein he said that in
traditional societies that he had investigated, the kids play is just small
versions of the adults life, that gets more and more realistic until it's the
real thing. So, a child gets a piglet to look after, if the adults raise pigs.
This would make sense from a biological point of view; the young watch the
adults and imitate what they're doing as well as they can, getting better and
better by practicing it.

It reminds me also of what I've learned about speaking a foreign language; you
can't learn enough to be good at it first, then start speaking. You have to
just start speaking it even though you're horrible. That's how you improve.

~~~
itronitron
Yes exactly, I give my children mini-screen devices so that they will be ready
for their career of sitting in front of an adult-sized screen for 8 hours a
day.

~~~
ponchotek
This is easily the best thing I have ever read in HN

------
theBobBob
I remember when I moved away for college I was so shocked at how quite a few
people basically couldn't look after themselves at all. I ended up teaching
one guy I lived with how to do the most basic things. I actually had to show
him how to put a duvet cover on, how to boil rice, how to use a washing
machine, the fact that if a chicken fillet is 50% pink on the inside is not
yet finished. He had never done any of these things himself before. I should
have seen the warning signs when he moved in and his mother was unpacking and
folding his underwear and putting them in his wardrobe for him. He was the
worst that I seen but there were plenty more that weren't that far off.

~~~
wott
> He had never done any of these things himself before.

Not only he had never done these before, but he had never paid attention for a
single minute how they were done by his parents, he did not care, things
appeared, ready done, that was the natural way of things (like cargo cult in a
way) and he had no interest in the process. I had a friend like that (to make
things worse, he then moved straight from his parents' to his girlfriend's, so
it went on like this until he was 27...)

On the other hand, I almost never had anything to at home because my folks
were of the kind who like to do everything themselves and do it quick, so
there was nothing to be done, _but_ I spent all my time questioning and above
all observing them. Children are curious in general, but I have always been
much more than average. So, whenever I was left alone (it happened frequently)
or when I was later dropped in real life, I never had any difficulty, I could
just reproduce their way of doing things.

\--------

I think that in a same country/culture, there is also a difference between
countryside and cities. I grew up in the countryside and all my school mates
were living in farms, and they were more than happy to help their parents
after school (or event to miss school to help with field work sometimes). I
mean, it is much more interesting (and for some of it, it gives a feeling of
responsibility like an adult) to feed the poultry, bring the cattle back to
the stable, drive the tractor, help fixing tools, work a bit of wood and
metal, discover mechanics, move and arrange straw bales (in the times when
they could still be moved and arranged) and a hundred other things; than doing
house chores (laundry, dish washing, floor weeping, OK you do them once to
try, but then it gets boring as soon as the second time comes...). And there
is not much more to do when you live in an apartment.

------
PebblesRox
I’ve found Montessori blogs to be a great resource of ideas for how to involve
my toddler in meaningful work. Here’s one of my favorites:
[http://www.thekavanaughreport.com/2017/04/practicallifebabyt...](http://www.thekavanaughreport.com/2017/04/practicallifebabytoddler.html)

~~~
nkg
Would you mind sharing more links to these blogs ?

~~~
PebblesRox
How We Montessori is a great one. I've read her entire archive!
[http://www.howwemontessori.com/how-we-
montessori/2018/05/fos...](http://www.howwemontessori.com/how-we-
montessori/2018/05/fostering-independence-montessori-baby-at-eight-
months.html)

Nicole Kavanaugh also has some really good stuff:
[http://www.thekavanaughreport.com/2016/06/practicallife2.htm...](http://www.thekavanaughreport.com/2016/06/practicallife2.html)

And I like This Merry Montessori, though Lindsay is no longer posting
actively:
[http://www.thismerrymontessori.com/?p=901](http://www.thismerrymontessori.com/?p=901)

"Practical Life" is the phrase Montessorians use for the kind of real-world
meaningful work described in the article. A google search for "practical life"
plus a specific age will turn up tons of great ideas and really expand your
conception of what kids at that age are capable of!

------
projectramo
The secret is there is no secret: kids just want to help so let them.

Curious to know if they're just modeling the adults. I mean, if I set them to
work and sit around catching up on Game of Thrones, its not the same thing as
if i am working all the time too.

~~~
toomuchtodo
This isn't restricted to just children. Humans naturally want to help.

[https://www.nytimes.com/2009/12/01/science/01human.html](https://www.nytimes.com/2009/12/01/science/01human.html)

[https://hbr.org/2018/05/how-to-get-the-help-you-
need](https://hbr.org/2018/05/how-to-get-the-help-you-need)

[https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/oct/14/selfis...](https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/oct/14/selfish-
proof-ego-humans-inherently-good)

[https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/scientists-
probe-...](https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/scientists-probe-human-
nature-and-discover-we-are-good-after-all/)

------
vinceguidry
My mom related to me a strange phenomenon. My sister's kids, who stay with my
mom and who my mom raises, along with all their friends, have managed to
gamify chores _all by themselves_. They compete to see who does more for their
respective families. My mom says that this was due a couple pairs of
enterprising parents who likely read about a technique on Facebook or
somewhere.

It cements my conviction that when you do parenting properly, you're not just
making your life and the lives of your kids easier, but you're improving _the
whole neighborhood_.

------
buckminster
Plain text version:
[https://text.npr.org/s.php?sId=616928895](https://text.npr.org/s.php?sId=616928895)

------
3rdAccount
There's a relevant Paul graham essay about how teenagers are basically
neurotic lapdogs because throughout much of history they would assist with
everything and would be an apprentice..etc, but now are locked away at school
(similar to a prison or daycare where their parents drop them off so they can
work).

It's a great essay that I can't do justice if someone can find it.

~~~
PebblesRox
I believe it’s this one:
[http://paulgraham.com/nerds.html](http://paulgraham.com/nerds.html)

Some relevant excerpts:

“Bullying was only part of the problem. Another problem, and possibly an even
worse one, was that we never had anything real to work on. Humans like to
work; in most of the world, your work is your identity. And all the work we
did was pointless, or seemed so at the time.”

“If life seems awful to kids, it's neither because hormones are turning you
all into monsters (as your parents believe), nor because life actually is
awful (as you believe). It's because the adults, who no longer have any
economic use for you, have abandoned you to spend years cooped up together
with nothing real to do. Any society of that type is awful to live in. You
don't have to look any further to explain why teenage kids are unhappy.”

~~~
M_Bakhtiari
I think he's spot on here. The culture clash between a society where the young
are to be incarcerated in some kind of padded safe space and a society where
the young are junior members of adult society is all too apparent in Western
Europe.

Youngsters from my neck of the woods are lining up to enter the wealthy
European countries and the politicians and anatomists have been whipped up in
a panicked frenzy trying to determine from X-rays who is over and who is under
the arbitrary age of 18, while any culturally sensitive person will plainly
who are grown men of military and marrying age where they come from and who
aren't.

And what do the ones who qualify as "children" or successfully lie on their
applications get? They may be grown men where they come from, but men who are
too naive to realise what they are lining up for is to be castrated by the
welfare state. They are asking to become incarcerated children, and when they
realise where they have been lured, who can blame these strapping young
fighters for embracing gang culture and shooting up their host neighbourhoods
in endless retaliation between the various lord-pretenders of the flies?

------
keyle
Very interesting.

I thaught my toddler to help dad make his coffee in the morning... Puts the
capsule in, pushes the long button, takes the capsule out... Then he smells
the coffee and says 'nice' and feels the cup and confirms a job well done by
saying 'hot'.

It's surprising how quickly he learnt how to do it, and how keen he is to help
dad do it, for no gain of his own.

On the other hand begging him to eat, trick him, or entice him with rewards
has had very little impact.

I will try to involve him in most things now.

~~~
PebblesRox
If anyone wants to see this in action, someone took a video of their two-year-
old making coffee. It’s impressive! (And adorable)
[https://www.paulaspencerscott.com/single-post/toddler-
making...](https://www.paulaspencerscott.com/single-post/toddler-making-
coffee)

~~~
joesb
But, imagine, if the kids fucked up once and burns his face with that coffee,
many of use would be blaming the parent for involving him in such a dangersous
task for a two-year-old.

~~~
keyle
At no point does he carry the mug. I hold the mug, he barely touches it. He
knows when something is dangerous if I've told him in the past.

------
Moru
"We have mothers tell us things like, 'I need to do a chore very quickly, and
if my toddler tries to help, he makes a mess. So I'd rather do it myself than
having them helping,' " she says.

I see some women do this but exchange the "toddler" with "husband". The
husband will ofcourse see this and not try to help in the future because he
feels insecure or just happy that she is happy doing it herself. It isn't too
late to train new things just because you aren't a toddler any more. This
focus on getting your toddler learning algebra or play the violin as early as
possible isn't productive, let the kids be kids. This includes letting them
help at home ofcourse.

~~~
SmellyGeekBoy
If you don't help your wife around the house you're not a "husband", you're a
"man child".

------
newnewpdro
Until the kids all got smartphones... what chores?

Raise your kids in a single shared room without any convenient forms of
unlimited entertainment, where they must either witness all the work they're
not helping with while bored and guilty or participate, and see how magically
helpful they are.

~~~
sudhirj
Raising my kid in a house full of books, massive TV, most iPads, iPhone and
MacBooks released lying around. The ideas still work. Cleans the floor, takes
a great interest in making sure we’re all well fed, keeps stuff tidy, tries
grooming, and stirs my coffee and blows on it if it’s too hot. A year and a
half old.

~~~
PebblesRox
My floors are the cleanest they've ever been because my 17-month-old nags me
to vacuum. I've been meaning to get him a little Dirt Devil or something, so
he can do it himself. (He tries with ours but it's just a little too big for
him to manage.)

~~~
newnewpdro
Sounds premature for either of the parent comments to be making any kind of
claims to success, but I wish you all the best of luck.

~~~
sudhirj
Think we're listing it more as anecdata to support the approach mentioned in
the article. The article is validating the approach as much as something
that's not a controlled decades long study can, which I suppose we're happy
enough with.

------
lbriner
Excuse me while I just go and write a motivational talk about your Developers
encouraging "acomedido": "It's not just doing what you're told, and it's not
just helping out. It's knowing the kind of help that is situationally
appropriate because you're paying attention."

Gold dust!

------
vincengomes
>>Even small tasks, like raking leaves, can give kids a sense of pride and
accomplishment

A line lifted straight from EAs PR Agency?

~~~
Bakary
After 18 or so years of grinding you can unlock the Adult trait for your
character.

------
mmjaa
I found it infuriating to read this article and realise there was no mention
of Dad.

Maybe his absence is an overlooked part of it?

As a father, I do chores with my kids, and the trope that only mothers and
house-wives do chores is really tiresome.

Maybe there's another way to get kids involved in chores - make sure Dad
doesn't get away with not being involved, too.

The family that cleans together (that means Dads too), live happily together.

~~~
Double_a_92
If your wife is a house-wife (i.e. doesn't have any other job, while you have
a fulltime job) why would she not just do all the chores that she can do?

~~~
scotty79
Because she does not want to. Then either you do it or if you too don't want
to do it just leave it undone.

Most chores are optional anyways.

~~~
Double_a_92
If you are a house-wife or -man doing chores related to your home and family
is literally your job. How can you argument with "don't want to"?

~~~
jessaustin
Some people mop the floors every day. Other people don't do that every day.
Can we say whose decision is _wrong_?

~~~
Double_a_92
The higher standard of both partners should apply, and should be held-up by
the partner that stays at home. If they don't match there's something wrong.

E.g. if you want fresh warm food for dinner and your wife just always buys
microwave food because she doens't like to cook, then you got the wrong wife
(resp. she got the wrong husband).

Or if your are a slob and mess up the house, and your wife nags you to clean
up after yourself because she cares about having a clean home. Then she got
the wrong husband and vice versa.

~~~
scotty79
My approach is, when you want something done, you have to be ready to do it
yourself or stop wanting it.

If you want home cooked meal and your wife doesn't cook for her own pleasure
they you can ask her to do it for you, if she does, you must thank her, if she
refuses, you must accept and respect her decision and either stop wanting home
cooked meals or make them yourself.

Of same approach should be applied by both spouses.

As far as I know that's best recipe for happy, conflict-free life.

Expecting someone to do something will lead to disappointment,
miscommunication and general decline of relationship.

~~~
Double_a_92
But then why do I need a wife? To be clear I was talking about 100% stay-at-
home wifes. If she's also working 100% at some other job than it's another
story. (Then the question is more why 2 people in a household have to work
100%...)

Maybe there is some specific thing that she especially dislikes for some
reason... Or maybe there is something that only you like, and takes a lot of
effort to do... But in general the stay-at-home partner should care (and do
sacrifices) for the family.

Otherwise that's the point? To have one more mouth to feed at home?

~~~
jessaustin
If this is the reason you thought you needed a wife, maybe what you need is a
housekeeper? Or, perhaps it's time to start using one of those meal delivery
services?

~~~
Double_a_92
In parts at least yes... and children. Which result in love and a family.

But if women nowadays refuse to do both those things, that also fails.

What is a wife else? Some female room mate, that pays rent with "love"
whenever she feels like it?

~~~
scotty79
> What is a wife else? Some female room mate, that pays rent with "love"
> whenever she feels like it?

Life-long friend that supports you however she is able to, respects you,
accepts you and lies to you so you can feel that you are a better person than
you actually are, which altogether helps you with achieving whatever goals you
aim to achieve.

Personal advice for you. Please wait with marrying someone till "having
another mouth to feed" and "rent" is a rounding error on your salary so you
can learn to appreciate other things.

~~~
jessaustin
This may be good advice for this particular situation, but it's kind of grim
if we generalize. Should only those with corporate-approved existences
procreate? Maybe we should ask the corporations...

Mature humans can relate to and support each other in a marriage in both easy
and difficult situations. There are limits, of course, because humans, but if
everyone waited until everything was sorted out to get married there would be
like ten marriages a year.

~~~
scotty79
I meant my advice just for Double_a_92. By reading what he wrote I just think
he might have trouble finding happiness in life until he outgrows the issue of
money.

This advice is not meant to be generalized. A lot of people are perfectly
capable of appreciating human beings in their life for what they are not for
the bottom line they provide or cost and services rendered by them and can
lead happy and harmonious life even with strain on resources. I'm just afraid
that Double_a_92 is not one of those people, thus my advice.

~~~
Double_a_92
It's not only about money. It's about balance and fairness. You ALSO provide
life-long friendship and love to your wife, AND also financial support (I
guess it's about money after all). So she should also provide more that just
the love... I.e. doing housework in a proper way and taking care of your kids.

Or do you think it would by okay for the (employed) husband to suddenly stop
working and go into social welfare because he feels like it?

I guess you could still accept the unfairness if there is nothing better,
because we only have one life and it is probably nicer with a partner... But
still.

~~~
scotty79
> ... AND also financial support

Now.

You might get hit by a truck next week and then your wife, if she actually
loves you, respects you and gives shit about you, won't dump you because you
no longer have any money but will figure out how to get enough money to get
you both through this.

If she is with you just for your money, or you are with her just to throw
money at her and expect your laundry and cooking and cleaning to be taken care
of then you might just as well skip the relationship. She might get actual job
and you might get profesional services instead.

> Or do you think it would by okay for the (employed) husband to suddenly stop
> working and go into social welfare because he feels like it?

Of course it's ok to stop doing the job you don't want to do. Especially if
you can get enough money elsewhere (social welfare) to survive.

Opposite of that is staying in the job you don't want to do and gradually
loosing respect for yourself and suffering growing resentment towards
yourself, your job, and the people you think are the reason you absolutely
must never stop doing what you hate so they can get money. You can always earn
more money. But you can't unbreak your broken mind or relationship.

If you consider your job personal sacrifice and your money, your most
important contribution then... well, it doesn't work well in the long run.

> I guess you could still accept the unfairness if there is nothing better,
> because we only have one life and it is probably nicer with a partner... But
> still.

Fair doesn't mean equal. And equal doesn't mean fair. It's best if both sides
think they themselves got better part of the deal. It doesn't matter what and
how much they are actually contributing by any objective measure. Perception
is what matters.

If monetary contribution is what you value then find women that earns way more
than you do. Then figure out what she values and you don't mind doing or
acquiring, and give her that. You'll both live happily ever after together.

------
klon
Interesting not a single male show up in this article

------
manuu80
Maybe in this case is because of some aboriginal custom. However, in poor
communities near the big south american capitals, these behaviors are often a
result of not having many chances when growing up. These, and other reasons as
the sense of belonging, are widely studied in teen pregnancy field.

------
gregknicholson
Is there a version of this article that isn't behind a “consent”-wall?

------
okket
I find it a bit disturbing that there is always the general case 'children' in
the headline and in the article, but no mention of boys, only girls doing the
work and in the pictures.

~~~
sudhirj
There’s plenty of mentions of sons in the article, just no pictures.

~~~
okket
Plenty? I read the article again and found only one.

~~~
sudhirj
Sorry, misread. Only the dish washing example is a boy, but I don’t think this
is inherently gender specific.

~~~
okket
Mexicos (and many other) current culture is not exactly known to be gender
neutral on most (all?) things. Sorry, but I am a little skeptical about your
assumption...

~~~
sudhirj
Probably isn’t, neither is India where I’m from. Boys would be heavily
discouraged from doing kitchen or clean chores even if they tried. But the
principles and techniques in the article seem to be gender neutral, even if
their application in the cultures studied isn’t.

------
fiatjaf
Maya?

------
jordigh
I know this is a bit petty, but I've stared to resent a little that even
though I'm Mexican, I'm not considered Western. What am I, then? Eastern?
Central? Southern?

I'm not just arguing about the geography, but about the culture. I feel much
more like a Canadian or a USian (or a Guatemalan) than I feel like an African,
Middle Easter, East Asian, or South Asian. I speak the same languages as
Europe, have been mostly exposed to Christianity and its cultural heritage,
read the same books and watch many of the same shows as Europe, the US, and
Canada, I use sit-down toilet, not squat toilets, and I eat mostly with forks
and knives, not with chopsticks or with my fingers.

While it is true that the culture of the Mayans in my country is slightly
foreign to me (as it is to most Mexicans, since most of us are not Mayan, and
the Mayans have always had separatist tendencies to begin with), I still feel
like the Mayans and I are by now part of the greater western world than any
other part of the world. We shouldn't be so foreignised.

My resentment, of course, comes because "Western" is being used here in the
sense of money-having, with a certain air of superiority, however well-
intentioned or benign this air may be. True that culture and wealth go hand-
in-hand, but I think we're all more alike than different. I didn't like doing
chores as a kid and I don't know a lot of Mexicans who did. We're more alike
to those who self-apply and exclude us from the "Western" label than we are
different.

~~~
JumpCrisscross
> _Mayans and I are by now part of the greater western world_

"Western" is used as short-hand for the cultures "that have some origin or
association with Europe. The term also applies beyond Europe to countries and
cultures whose histories are strongly connected to Europe by immigration,
colonization, or influence."

Modern Mexican culture could be argued to be "Western". It would be difficult,
on the other hand, to argue Maya culture is Western.

> _I feel much more like a Canadian or a USian_

Linguistically, the use of "USian" strikes back at your argument. There is no
ambiguity when someone says "I am American," as people from only one country
identify themselves as such. Using the term "USian" thus explicitly rejects
one's affiliation with the United States.

~~~
pif
>> There is no ambiguity when someone says "I am American," as people from
only one country identify themselves as such.

Well, they have the right to do so when talking among themselves. When talking
within an international audience, good manners suggest sticking to definitions
that are internationally agreed upon.

America is a continent, and US citizens are not more American than any
Canadian, Argentinian or Peruvian is.

~~~
SerLava
>America is a continent,

But it's not. North America and South America are just as separate as Africa
and Eurasia.

>sticking to definitions that are internationally agreed upon.

"American" is used as the demonym pretty much everywhere in the world other
than Central America and South America. So that advice is backwards.

And try to empathize by imaging that you can't call yourself a demonym, and
you have to either go by a bizarre acronym like "RAian" for the Republic of
Argentina, or when someone says "I'm French, what about you?" you have to say
"Well, I am living in the Republic of Argentina"

Then turn around and direct this at Australians. They apparently have no right
to their demonym either, because New Guinea is part of the continent. And in
their case, it's actually part of the continent.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australia_(continent)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australia_\(continent\))

Papua New Guineans and Indonesian Papuans already have their own names for
themselves, but what if they also want to say they're Australian? Let's have
everyone switch from "Australian" to "CAian" for the Commonwealth of
Australia.

San Marino is literally on the Italian Peninsula, so "italiano" is off
completely. They need to start going by "RIano" or something.

And how many countries are in the South of Africa?

~~~
ASalazarMX
> "American" is used as the demonym pretty much everywhere in the world other
> than Central America and South America.

Solely by misappropriation. America was world-wide known as a continent before
England sent their colonizers. Somehow migrating to America was
misappropriated as meaning "migrating to the English colonies in America".
Somehow the United States of America became the only America.

I have the theory that if their name had been less generic, say United States
of New England, The word America would have retained its original meaning.

~~~
pzone
Of course the only reason we use the term "American" is because of the USA!
It's a natural term for residents of the USA, and has become ingrained in
English by virtue of America being the largest English speaking country for
nearly 200 years. Do non-English speakers have a problem with this? In Spanish
the term for USA is "Estados Unidos" which isn't problematic at all.

~~~
ASalazarMX
It has nothing to do with language, it's about regional identity. Imagine if
the French told Europe that France is now Europe, and what was Europe will now
be called the Europes. It wouldn't matter if they say it in French or German.

