

All I need is a programmer - eVizitei
http://codeclimber.blogspot.com/2008/04/all-i-need-is-programmer.html

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ssharp
This same story seems to get rehashed weekly here. Without insight into what
the business is, you can't really judge how important a programmer is. For
some, it's paramount. For others, it's not as important.

Interestingly enough, a lot of people get stuck in some sort of weird trap:
Their idea is worth so much to them that they won't give up equity yet their
idea is worth so little that they won't invest in it.

~~~
RichardPrice
That's a very interesting paradoxical situation you have pointed out - the
weird trap, I mean.

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mechanical_fish
Again, it's worth remembering that even if everyone in the world understood
exactly how valuable, difficult, and expensive programming can be, these
conversations would still happen all the time. It's just how negotiation
works: Programmer offers to work for X, customer pretends to be poor and
offers Y where Y << X. And so on.

Admittedly, when you offer to work for X and your "friend" responds by coming
right out and _saying_ that they expected the work _for free_ , so forget
it... they're not being very polite or very smart. A better response would be
"Gosh, I hadn't realized it was more than an hour or two of work, and my
budget is only $75. Thanks for setting me straight -- I'll have to rethink
this. Can you recommend any $10-an-hour grade school students?" And then you
put on your Helpless Newb Face and hope that your programmer friend takes pity
on you and offers to work at half wages, or offers you some free advice on how
to set up a cheap Wordpress site, or something.

As sure as the sun shines, people -- especially your "friends" -- are never
going to offer what you're actually worth. (For one thing, they have little
way of knowing. Given that most software engineers can barely estimate how
long their projects will take or how much the result is worth, how can you
expect inexperienced folks to do it?) You just have to do what this guy did:
Ask for what you think you're worth, and be gracious but firm if they say
something stupid or insulting in return.

~~~
derefr
If it's how negotiation works, then why open with what you think you're worth?
Why not ask for W where X << W?

~~~
mechanical_fish
Very good. That is rule one of negotiation: Always ask for more than you think
you will get.

Rule zero is: Never be the first person to name a price. The opener is at a
disadvantage: Once they offer to pay you $5, they can't credibly claim to be
unable to afford $4. You can counteroffer with $15 and then -- in the simplest
scenario -- offer to split the difference, ending up with $10.

Following rule zero can be very hard. It takes a lot of social skill to
deflect your opponent's request for an opening bid. I'm not sure rule zero
even applies in a lot of situations -- for example, as a consultant I often
just use rule one, because your customers will often be scared away if you act
like the canonical Oracle salesperson and attempt to determine the approximate
size of their bank account before you even name your rate. But you can give
them a rate and then negotiate the project scope or schedule. ;)

I'm cribbing all of this from Dawson's _Secrets of Power Negotiating_ , BTW. I
find that book kind of cheesy -- perhaps because, like many techies, I'm a
terrible negotiator by nature -- but it's a fun way to get inside the mind of
a sales guy. I wish I'd read it before I went to China. Chinese shopkeepers
saw me coming a mile away. I console myself with the knowledge that the
profits from my few small purchases are probably putting some very nice
Chinese kids through college now... Plus, my Chinese friend was _highly_
entertained by the sight of my negotiating, and that's worth something.

~~~
jimbokun
My wife developed a technique in ChinaTown NYC that rarely failed.

She would decide what she wanted to pay (less than what was being asked,
obviously), put down the money in front of the salesperson while picking up
the item and wait for a response.

The salesperson was almost never willing to let her pick her money back up
again.

------
fendale
I work for a big company where they believe in the cog-in-a-machine idea so
much they actually implemented a process they coined 'the factory process'
with the emphasis on being able to swap in team of developers at the drop of a
hat.

Noone had read the mythical man month, or Spolsky's 'Hitting the highlights'
(or named something similar to that).

I can testify first hand that treating software engineer like cogs is a road
to slippage, bugs and all the good engineers leaving!

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vikram
The lack of cash for the gig isn't really the problem here. I think the
problem is that the person asking for work is poor at business.

If he is expecting this guy to work for free, he should make him feel super
important, ask for advice and not really ask him to do the work.

Assuming that someone else has nothing else going on and will spend their
evenings/weekends on your project for free, just points out that he doesn't
have a clue about how people work.

My advice to anyone looking to hire a programmer for free, try a subtle form
of flattery and see if you can get a good deal. Alternatively, learn
programming.

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Hexstream
"The reason for this, I think, is that Lisp allows you to be so productive
that a single person can get things done without having to work together with
anyone else, and so Lisp programmers never develop the social skills needed to
work effectively as a member of a team."

That's IT! I just decided to quit Lisp and program in C from now on. And all
this time I wondered why I have no social skills... But now everything will be
fine!!!

~~~
gruseom
You're quoting a statement by Ron Garret which I find rather thought provoking
and not at all ridiculous. But what puzzles me is, why are you quoting it
here?

~~~
Hexstream
It was just a joke in good earth. But now I see how you read it.

I'll try to double-check my post for ambiguïties next time.

------
wumi
Programming is not the only profession where this takes place

~~~
wanorris
In particular in the web industry, there's a lot of programmers who have "done
all the hard stuff" and now just need a designer to "make it look
pretty,"despite the fact that good design with a focus on usability is likely
to change the structure and flow of the application.

I mention it, because I've caught myself thinking this way.

------
zapnap
This is typical of the sort of person who believes that the value of something
is entirely the idea, rather than in the implementation of the idea.
Unfortunately, that mindset never actually accomplishes anything.

Ideas aren't worth the paper they're printed on. Unless it's nice paper.

~~~
Jesin
New Math anyone?

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paul9290
I have a programmer who due to visa issues is stuck in one state. We have
worked together on a startup remotely 4 over a yr now. His full time gig sent
him over to work only in one state. Now we are backed we want him to join us
where our backers and I am, but immigration is backed up where it will take a
year 2 approve his move. We are now looking for LAMP developers (2 yr
experience) in and around the Philly area.

I wouldnt say all we need is a programmer, rather another team member who can
join us locally, while he continues working remotely! Interested drop me mail
at paul9290 <at> yahoo.com. It's a paid position with equity!

------
daniel-cussen
Has anyone seen a post saying "All I need is a business guy?"

~~~
raganwald
Maybe not a post, but I know several entrepreneurs who say--on a regular
basis--"All I need is a sales guy," "All I need is a marketing guy," and/or
"All I need is a bizdev guy."

In each case, they believe that the hard part of their business is the part
they are doing/have done, and teh sales/marketing/bizdev is a slam dunk.

~~~
jeroen
We all misjudge that which we don't understand. And if we did understand, we
could do it ourselves.

~~~
yters
Good point, too bad nested comments don't float the original comment up
higher.

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aggieben
See another similar thread here: <http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=155105>

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sdurkin
In my opinion the software is the business. Without that, its just an idea on
paper. And the marketable value of an idea is zero.

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wheels
Got the same thing on Sunday. Usually I find the easiest thing to say, in
cases where I'm pretty certain there's not going to be common ground, to
recommend a third party who they're not friends with and won't assume that
it'll be a favor.

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volida
you can either spend that energy and reply to the person try explaining why
you worth X you are requesting (assumuning they are not naive and willing to
understand) or write a blog post a of type "all I need is a XYZ"

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Tichy
If they know exactly what they want, the programmer is exchangeable. Maybe one
is faster than the other, maybe the code will be ugly. It doesn't really
matter.

~~~
edw519
"If they know exactly what they want"

That sure would be nice. Too bad it almost never happens.

"the programmer is exchangeable. Maybe one is faster than the other, maybe the
code will be ugly"

I couldn't disagree more. Read this

<http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/HighNotes.html>

and see if that changes your thinking. Joel refutes your statement much better
than I ever could.

(My favorite line: Five Antonio Salieris won't produce Mozart's Requiem. Ever.
Not if they work for 100 years.)

~~~
Tichy
I only skimmed it, but I don't think it applies. Who says those guys wanted to
start a Software Company? Quote: "This is a conversation about software
companies, shrinkwrap software, where the company's success or failure is
directly a result of the quality of their code."

Also the comparison to Brad Pitt really makes no sense. People don't go to see
Brad Pitt moves because he is an x times better actor than others. Not saying
he is bad, but surely some cheaper nobodies could be found who acts well, too.
But they wouldn't be famous and therefore would not draw a crowd.

Same with Salieri. Sorry, but there are zillions of programmers who could
program a Twitter, for example. Sure, there are some kinds of programs that
most programmers would be unable to write, but it doesn't apply to most Web
Apps.

Even if the programmer thing would make a difference, the business guys still
could not possibly care, because they have no way of knowing if a programmer
is good or not.

Think about building a house. Once the architecture is done, surely there are
lots of building teams who can build it. Sure, some will screw it up, but most
won't.

Also, I think in the beginning the business guys might be looking for a
prototype. If it takes off, they can still worry about finding rockstar
programmers.

~~~
edw519
Here's why this essay struck a nerve with me.

There are certain things that 10% of the hackers I ever met could do in x
amount of time that the other 90% could never do. In any amount of time.

The longer I work in this field, the truer that seems.

And managers have never understood that. They look at us as "person hours" to
be mixed and matched to achieve their goals. I've never seen that work well.

How many times have you given an estimate like this:

For me: 1 day. For me and Joe together: 2 days. If you give it to Joe first
and then give it to me: 1 week.

Idea guys understand this about as well as managers. And often they need
someone from the top 10% whether they know it or not. Not just for
programming, but also for analysis, design, testing, scaling, and deployment.

~~~
Tichy
But what if it doesn't matter if it takes a day or a week? And how is the
business person to know? Just because Joe asks for a lot of money, are they
supposed to believe that he is good?

I think you are confusing your personal experiences and situations with the
situation of some business guy. They are not out to start a software company,
where they will manage programmers. They just want product x build.

It is an exchangeable skill, in the same way as there are thousands of
mechanics who could fix your car, or thousands of window-makers who could
create a window for your house, or thousands of carpenters who can create a
cupboard to your specifications.

If you drive your car into some mechanics garage, you are not expecting to
manage that mechanic. You just want your car fixed.

~~~
tyn
Joe has a problem with his car, it makes a terribly annoying sound. He goes to
Mechanic A who decides to replace his engine. Problem solved, cost 10000$.
John has exactly the same problem (with the same cause), he goes to mechanic B
who finds out that a small part of the engine needs replacement. Problem
fixed, cost 65$.

Btw, software, unlike buildings or chairs, is extensible and the (technical)
desing decisions of the programmer are very important in how extensible it is
or if it is extensible at all.

~~~
Tichy
Those examples are just outliers. You can always be unlucky. But the majority
of mechanics can fix your car. And the problem remains: how are you supposed
to know beforehand which mechanic is good?

Extensible software: maybe it doesn't matter so much for a prototype. If the
concept proves itself, you could also start writing it again.

------
goodkarma
If you believe that code is poetry, then programmers are artists.

------
samratjp
In a similar situation actually! I like your approach!

