
Cardiff tech firm: 'We'll pay £100k, but can't get staff' - happy-go-lucky
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-wales-45891002
======
EnderMB
So, has MyPinPad actually tried raising their salary offering to £100k? I find
it very hard to believe they have, because that would be well-above the
average for the area. In relation to standard Web Developer roles, it'd be
over double what I could expect in Cardiff for a mid-to-senior level role.

Their website currently says "up to £60k", and in my experience companies that
say "up to" will rarely go to that number unless the candidate is very/over
qualified, in which case that candidate has zero potential for growth and will
have a hard time getting an annual raise unless things go brilliantly.

MyPinPad look like a reasonably large company, so their salary offering right
now is probably average or above, but the article itself is absolute crap. If
MyPinPad were to offer £100k for their Services Developer role I'd beat their
door down for an interview. It's double what I'm getting in Bristol right now,
I have C# and non-CLR expeirence, and the commute would be worth it. Hell, for
that money I could drive in, pay an obscene amount for parking and still be
ahead!

I don't buy for a second that they have failed to get devs in when offering
£100k. Either they're full of shit, or they are terrible at advertising roles.

~~~
digianarchist
Right. 100k probably included their end of National Insurance, recruiter fees
and all that hidden costs that don't end up in a persons final compensation.

~~~
EnderMB
That's what I initially thought, but even with my rough estimates of around
£8500 in NI from the employer, and around £9-10,000 in recruitment fees
(assuming roughly 15% of the first year salary, which is already pretty high)
- with all of this rounded up to roughly £20k, that's still a full £20k short
of what the article says if they were to hire someone for the maximum £60k a
year.

The easy argument is that they're full of shit. My guess is that the only way
they can attract people to Cardiff is to raise salaries, but even £60k (which
is a good salary for Cardiff) isn't enough to stop people from chasing the big
bucks in London. They don't want to pay more than £60k, so their alternative
is to complain that salaries aren't enough and that the problem is out of
their control.

------
otras
Onboarding and dividing work between 100 engineers is hard. Makes me think of
Brooks' law: " _Adding human resources to a late software project makes it
later_." [0]

MyPinPad's careers page [1] lists four positions (Android developer, iOS
developer, senior devops engineer, and services developer) with the same "
_salary up to £60,000 per annum, depending on experience_ " for each position.
The higher salary makes for a good news article (and a good advertisement for
their recruiting team), but I wonder if they could increase their application
rate by showing the same salary as the one they advertised in the article.

[0]:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brooks%27s_law](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brooks%27s_law)

[1]: [https://www.mypinpad.com/careers/](https://www.mypinpad.com/careers/)

~~~
nhkssol
Brooks' Law: "nine women can't make a baby in one month."

~~~
flashgordon
When firing duds, no women will ever get pregnant!

------
mattlondon
In the article they say they are offering London salaries. Fine. But _Cardiff
is not the same as London_!

London is _huge_ comapred to Cardiff. Cardiff has about 500,000 people in its
urban area compared to 10,000,000 in London, and Cardiff is about 30 square
miles compared to almost 700 square miles for London [1]. As such London just
has a lot more going on - theatre, museums, nightlife, restaurants, sports,
shopping, meet-ups, career-possibilities, transport, galleries... you name it
there is more of it in London, and its also generally all very good or even
world-class quality. Sure Cardiff has some stuff going on and has its own
cultural & social activities, but it is in no way even in the same league as
London by any stretch.

As a result you're not going to lure someone to Cardiff by just matching
London salaries - who would give up London to go to Cardiff to get the same
salary but a culturally and socially moribund (by comparison) experience? You
have to offer them something above and beyond. Not everyone likes hiking &
nature, and I'd wager that most people in these salary ranges aren't that
badly impacted by high property prices in London.

Perhaps offer salaries that are _more_ than London and then see if the
applications start rolling in?

1 -
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cardiff](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cardiff)
& [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London)

~~~
dvdcxn
You're projecting your own perception onto others.

Let me raise a counterpoint, the cost of living in Cardiff is vastly less than
the, frankly, over inflated prices in London.

I'm going to reuse your tone here - who would give up Cardiff to go to London
to get the same Salary but pay twice as much for rent?

I'd raise another point as well - you're assuming people prefer the art and
culture scene in London in comparison to a more local scene in a smaller city
where gentrification isn't as ubiquitious. I'd rather live in Glasgow, where
anyone can afford to go to a club or gig than London, where such activities
are generally reserved for rich kids.

~~~
mattlondon
You're totally correct - its not for everyone (just like Cardiff is not for
everyone). London is a big city and comes with big city problems.

However, I'd still argue that their offer is clearly not competitive by
matching London salaries since they are not getting applicants.

For what it is worth, in my personal opinion if you are renting on 100K a
year, you're Doing It Wrong. I appreciate some people value the flexibility of
renting though. Saving up for a mortgage deposit with £100K a year salary and
equity grants etc should be no problems, and mortgage repayments are usually
either equal or substantially lower than rental rates for equivalent
properties. Even in London, a commute of just 25 minutes from central London
[2] you can buy a one bed flat for 250-300K which is very affordable on a 100K
a year salary. [1]

1 - [https://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-for-
sale/find.html?loca...](https://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-for-
sale/find.html?locationIdentifier=STATION%5E3506&minBedrooms=1&radius=1.0&sortType=1&propertyTypes=flat&primaryDisplayPropertyType=flats&includeSSTC=false&dontShow=retirement)

2 -
[https://www.google.com/maps/dir/Finchley+Central+Station/Tra...](https://www.google.com/maps/dir/Finchley+Central+Station/Trafalgar+Square,+Trafalgar+Square,+London/@51.5545237,-0.2291448,12z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m14!4m13!1m5!1m1!1s0x48761754f03c34dd:0x9509ee771db17ec6!2m2!1d-0.1924272!2d51.60105!1m5!1m1!1s0x487604ce3941eb1f:0x1a5342fdf089c627!2m2!1d-0.128069!2d51.508039!3e3)

~~~
pjc50
.. or for 250k you could get a four bedroom detached house in Cardiff:
[https://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-for-
sale/property-69624...](https://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-for-
sale/property-69624086.html)

------
mhd
Their career page says 60k, though.

If it weren't out of area of expertise, Wales is quite beautiful. And I almost
understand Rhod Gilbert.

~~~
maaark
I wouldn't be able to stop myself from saying "way-als" in a mocking accent.
Just like how I can't stop myself saying "moo-ney" when I hear it from a
Dubliner.

------
HarryHirsch
If you are laid off in London your next job will be in London and you don't
have to move house. If you are laid off in Cardiff the next job is in Bristol,
Birmingham or Milton Keynes. Property prices don't figure into the equation so
much because no one is going to buy in a town where the tech scene is small.

------
martiuk
Up to 60k p/a[0] for a Senior DevOps engineer is not exactly London wages when
the exact same job can start at or above 80k. [1]

Have they also thought that not every engineer lives in (or wants to move to)
Cardiff?

What is their remote working policy? Do they even have one?

[0]: [https://www.mypinpad.com/careers/](https://www.mypinpad.com/careers/)

[1]: [https://www.cwjobs.co.uk/jobs/permanent/senior-devops-
engine...](https://www.cwjobs.co.uk/jobs/permanent/senior-devops-engineer/in-
london?Sort=4)

------
joezydeco
_MyPinPad needs 100 software engineers in Cardiff to roll out a new product_

Roll it out, or actually get it written? What kind of product needs 100
_additional_ engineers to launch?

~~~
bulatb
They just raised £15 million in series B, enough to pay those 100 engineers
£100k each for... 1.5 years, assuming zero overhead and no other expenses?

Edit: also assuming no revenue, so I don't know. Is that normal startup math?

Double edit: Crunchbase revenue estimate is $20.9M.

~~~
strig
Also assuming zero additional revenue.

~~~
bulatb
Right, thank you.

------
leed25d
Can't get staff? What a shame. Would you consider starting some kind of
training policy?

~~~
choot
I wonder if training works for developers.

I've never seen any company offering developer training, so i assumed training
developers doesn't work.

~~~
ashelmire
If there's a junior in the job title, it means they train developers.

------
CryoLogic
Bad Title. Actual article says "up to 100k", as in maximum. I assume most
people don't get that offer.

~~~
EnderMB
Their job posts say "up to 60k", so it's not just a bad title. It's a blatant
lie.

The main question, for me, is what point the article is trying to prove. The
cynic in me believes that it's an effort to drive down permanent developer
salaries by saying "we already tried to offer above market rates and it didn't
work, so we're bringing them down again".

From a .NET perspective, I think you'd be lucky to get £100k a year in a
contract role, let alone as a permanent employee. With that said, if you want
to earn more than £50k in the south west, your only choice is large
multinational company (which are mostly in London), management, or
contracting.

------
CalRobert
So.... pay more then. Does the city say "we'll pay 100k but can't get quants"?
Or do they pay market rate?

If they can't pay more, perhaps other people have found ways to make more
profitable use of their engineers' time, in which case their business is not
viable.

------
consp
This reads like an advertorial. Does the BBC have some interest in getting
tech workers to Wales?

~~~
dazc
No, the BBC has an anti-Brexit agenda.

~~~
matthewmacleod
That’s a ludicrous statement. Do you have any evidence whatsoever to back it
up?

~~~
dazc
Evidence you'd accept, probably not, although you can simply observe the kinds
of stories they choose to promote and arrive at a reasonable conclusion.

~~~
matthewmacleod
In other words, no.

Since the BBC is routinely and equally criticised for being both pro- and
anti-Brexit, it’s reasonable to assume that it’s more likely to be neither.

~~~
dazc
OK, you have no evidence either so let's accept it's a point of opinion?

------
poulsbohemian
I see articles like this and they always seem to overlook the solution: hire
remotely. Oh sure, it isn't what they want and yes it introduces complexity
they might not want, but it is the answer. People want to live where they want
to live. Some might be lured by more money. Some will recognize that there are
clusters of jobs in certain urban areas and be unwilling to move to other
locations as a result. Not in one of those prime tech clusters? Just accept
that you need to hire where the people are, not where you want them to be.
Furthermore, there's an irony of tech firms making money over the internet,
but believing all their staff must be physically located together.

------
edem
Maybe you should allow remote work?

------
swarnie_
As a tech worker who started close to Cardiff i've slowly moved down the M4 as
my career has progressed. Jobs over 60k are rare outside of London - > Bristol
and all towns in between.

------
londons_explore
Engineers willing to move for their job would normally move to silicon valley
and get offered $150k, and _much_ lower taxes.

Even at £100k (and ~45% tax!), you're only going to get people who either
already live in Cardiff, or are happy to relocate to Wales, but not to
relocate to the USA (not all that many people).

------
jfindley
I am continually amazed at the cynical attempt by hiring managers to try to
pretend that the laws of supply and demand shouldn't apply to non-exec level
staff. If you can't hire the people you want for what you're offering that
should be a signal to pay more, not to whine that you can't force your idea of
a reasonable wage on others.

~~~
matthewmacleod
So while there is validity to this, my experience hiring staff is that there
is genuinely a lack of skilled tech workers in the UK, especially at senior
levels - it’s not just down to salary requirements.

Sure - as demand goes up and supply is constrained, salaries have to rise. But
it’s more complex than that - first, salary increases don’t magically increase
supply. There’s a long lag time between salary rises and increased supply. On
top of that, there’s a particular dearth of senior engineers. It’s easier to
recruit people with less experience, and there’s nothing wrong with doing that
and training them up - but this in itself takes quite a lot of investment and
can be difficult in a small team. And third, the UK’s shitty immigration
process and ongoing Brexit catastrophe make it more difficult to recruit
developers from other countries.

At some point, it becomes economically infeasible to run a functioning
business as the staff you need become more expensive to hire. It’s good for
people in that market, but it can also make it difficult to run a sustainable
small business, and it’s okay to call attention to that. Like most things,
it’s a bit of a balancing act.

~~~
jfindley
I'm not sure I find this convincing. There are lots and lots of skilled tech
workers in the UK that want permanent roles, but the really good ones already
have well paid jobs, usually either for the finance sector or with
Google/Facebook/etc. £100k to relocate to Cardiff isn't even slightly tempting
to these people (source: I'm one of them).

For many years the UK has had very low tech salaries compared to similar
locations, and compared to other similarly skilled jobs[0][1]. As demand for
good tech staff rises this is starting to equalise. This is a trend that's
unlikely to reverse, and IMO this is a good thing.

I appreciate that if you're trying to run a small business it's frustrating
that you can't get the staff you want at the price you want to pay, but the
solution isn't to hope that people will work for less you make you richer.
You'll need to either adjust your budget, your expectations, or offer
something that their current job doesn't give them (share of the business
(with the same liquidation prefs that you have), or 100% remote, or something
else along these lines). If you really can't do any of those things, then
maybe your business just can't afford what you want and you'll need to hire
more junior people and train them up.

I've been on both sides of this fence, lots, and I've never once felt there
was a shortage of good tech people in the UK, or found it hard to find smart
candidates, it's just that the good ones expect to get paid well for the
skills they have spent many years honing.

0: e.g. in Zurich finance and tech are compensated similarly, in London
finance gets significantly more (sources:
[https://www.payscale.com/research/CH/Location=Zurich/Salary](https://www.payscale.com/research/CH/Location=Zurich/Salary)
[https://www.cwjobs.co.uk/salary-checker/average-financial-
sa...](https://www.cwjobs.co.uk/salary-checker/average-financial-salary-city-
london) [https://www.cwjobs.co.uk/salary-checker/average-software-
eng...](https://www.cwjobs.co.uk/salary-checker/average-software-engineer-
salary)) 1: [http://www.p2pfinancenews.co.uk/2018/02/08/london-tech-
salar...](http://www.p2pfinancenews.co.uk/2018/02/08/london-tech-salaries/)

~~~
matthewmacleod
_For many years the UK has had very low tech salaries compared to similar
locations, and compared to other similarly skilled jobs_

Hang on, I think that's a bit off – you're comparing the UK average with the
Zurich average. If you compare the London finance sector wage with software,
the latter is higher: [https://www.cwjobs.co.uk/salary-checker/average-
software-eng...](https://www.cwjobs.co.uk/salary-checker/average-software-
engineer-salary-london)

I get that the solution isn't to underpay as a business, but it does seem
reasonable to look at ways to get more people into the industry, if the
situation is at a point where it's not economically feasible to run businesses
because of the cost of staff. We do the same with workers in other sectors,
after all.

~~~
jfindley
Okay, my other link turned out not to be London-specific, sorry about that, so
by that metric it now looks like they're on a par, which is good news, as they
didn't use to be, by my recollection.

Certainly the comparative salary for the same tech-related position in London
vs places like Zurich, NY, SF, etc seems lower, but I don't have data to
support that which I can publicly share, so I guess I can't prove that point.

I'd suggest that if you feel there aren't enough people even at very junior
levels, then maybe there's a problem and we should look at why not enough
people are in the industry. If there are plenty of junior or poorly skilled
people but not enough highly skilled people, then it's more likely that you
aren't paying enough (or aren't advertising in the right ways to find them).
My perception is that it's the latter, but I don't really have anything beyond
my own experience to support that.

