

While Apple Is Criticized for Foxconn, Other Companies Are Silent - claxium
http://bits.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/04/08/disruptions-on-worker-conditions-apples-rivals-are-silent/

======
olalonde
I always find it ironic when Foxconn is criticized for not treating their
employees well when the fact is, Foxconn has done more to alleviate poverty in
China than any single other company I can think of.

I live a few blocks away from the Foxconn factory in Shenzhen and whenever I
try to bring up the "poor working conditions at Foxconn" topic with locals, I
most often get a blank stare as if I had suggested something completely
absurd. The truth is, Foxconn jobs are vastly superior to most alternatives
down here.

I would recommend Western "do-gooders" to keep in mind that Chinese people are
much more concerned about their own working conditions and well being than
anyone else. They are in a much better position to address their own problems
and if they ever need help from us Westerners, I'm sure they won't hesitate to
ask. Meanwhile, I suggest we humbly mind our own business.

~~~
TazeTSchnitzel
I think that's an important thing to consider. Whilst working conditions might
be 'bad', they may be much better than what they might have otherwise, or
better paid.

------
Jayasimhan
This whole Foxconn scrutiny is a blessing in disguise for Apple. How so?

Apple has deep pockets and very healthy margins that they could afford to fix
this whole issue while keeping it in the media's radar and then at the right
time turn it back to its competitors to prove their ethics. The competitors
whose margins are already spread too thin will have great difficulty in coming
clean in this issue. Apple gets a positive PR while others struggle.

------
joejohnson
Apple is criticized more than the others because they are in the media a lot
already. They are a hugely successful company that has entered the public
zeitgeist in a way that few of their competitors have. So, with this comes a
lot more scrutiny, and thus it was easy for Apple to be the focus of attention
when Foxconn's labor practices started to be reported on in the US.

Apple is handling this issue well (and much better than their competitors).
But the real "issue" here is something that Apple has understood for a while.
"The jobs aren't coming back" is a product of many factors, and the cost of
labor is a red herring in this debate.

------
Duff
I find all of this hand-wringing over working conditions to be the biggest
pile of bunk that I have ever heard of.

The only reason that China is manufacturing just about every consumer product
out there is that sending work there allows you to exploit cheap labor, lax
environmental regulation, and other regulation found in western countries.

So now some westerners who "care" are waxing on about the poor iPhone workers.
Why aren't the Chinese people making shoes, underwear, leather coats or other
unpleasant jobs worthy of our pity?

~~~
lancewiggs
This may have been the case in the past, but for Apple and increasingly across
many industries China is offering genuine advantages beyond labour
cost/conditions, and labour cost/conditions are increasingly approaching those
in the west. It's like Japan all over again.

------
kmfrk
"While Media Single Out Apple for Foxconn, Companies See No Reason to Bring
Attention to Themselves".

How is this surprising? Maybe the NYT should look inwards and cover Foxconn as
a general problem, not something endemic to Apple.

------
detokaal
Overlooked sidebar: the fact that we are having this discussion, that China is
listening to some degree, and that Apple is having an influence on Chinese
labor conditions speaks volumes about how capitalism changes nations for the
better. Anywhere a degree of free trade is introduced, freedom expands. In
this case, these workers are going to be better off in the long run with
Apple, because someone, somewhere in the Chinese bureaucracy, is making some
money in the supply chain, and they don't want that to ever stop - even if
that means giving these workers just a little more freedom, safety and salary.

------
tatsuke95
Apple is the biggest company in the world, other companies are not.

With great power comes great responsibility.

~~~
rbarooah
So do you think that Samsung for example, has less responsibility for its
worker's conditions than Apple?

~~~
cooldeal
Equal responsibility but lesser blame. It's like slagging on a poor man for
eating unhealthy food on the dollar menu at McDonalds. That man has an excuse,
he doesn't have the money to shop for organic food at Whole Foods. Someone
already super rich eating the dollar menu just to save a few bucks definitely
deserves more blame not for eating healthy.

There isn't much money left over after Apple is done sucking the profit out of
the phone industry.

[http://www.asymco.com/2012/02/03/first-apples-rank-in-
mobile...](http://www.asymco.com/2012/02/03/first-apples-rank-in-mobile-phone-
profitability-and-revenues/)

[http://www.asymco.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/Screen-
Shot...](http://www.asymco.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/Screen-
Shot-2012-02-03-at-2-3-12.37.20-PM.png)

~~~
rbarooah
Since they are doing the most to improve working conditions, perhaps they
deserve more profit.

~~~
recoiledsnake
Nokia is known for the best working conditions in their plants in Europe
because of the labor laws there. For example look at this video:

[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RqxYiXtzKd0&feature=playe...](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RqxYiXtzKd0&feature=player_embedded)

However, due to their all their competitors including Apple moving
manufacturing to China, they have been forced to close their European plants
and move to China as well.

~~~
rbarooah
Nokia isn't doing the most to _improve_ working conditions. Apple is.

~~~
cooldeal
So someone who stopped beating the wife is more laudable than someone who
never did?

~~~
glassx
To be fair, the correct analogy would be that someone (Apple) who makes a
third person (contractors) stop beating the wife is more laudable than someone
(Nokia) who never had to do it in the first place.

------
hmottestad
Did anyone notice the text under the image "A worker inspected motherboards on
a factory line at the Foxconn plant in Shenzen, China, in May."

She is looking at a graphics cards, not a motherboard.

~~~
officialchicken
First thing I noticed. And unfortunately for the author, that's where I
stopped reading, since the credibility is instantly lost.

~~~
lancewiggs
That may (likely) have been put there by a sub editor, not the author. Still
impinges on the credibility of NYTimes though.

------
brownbat
Wintek poisoning, Riteng factory explosion, Foxconn...

I'm concerned about production in China generally, sure, but Apple suppliers
are the ones that keep making headlines.

Maybe Apple's just been spectacularly unlucky, but it's like we have this
shoe, and it matches Apple's foot size so well...

------
nirvana
The real irony, to my mind is this: Apple is the company with the most
integrity I've ever known. This manifests itself everywhere- from product
quality to service at Apple stores.

Apple has been proactive in making sure their employees are well taken care
of, here and abroad, and they've been doing this for the past decade.

They've been auditing suppliers in various ways for far longer than this story
has even been in the news, going back at least to the 1990s.

Sure, Apple is the biggest, most profitable tech company, and it is also the
one with the biggest brand. I think Apple's brand is a huge factor here- it is
a global brand, it is associated with really good values such as quality,
respect, integrity, etc, and thus it is the most attractive brand the put dirt
on.

This explains why media, and unscrupulous people focus on attacking Apple for
"working conditions".

But the reality is, when Foxconn has positions open to work for Apple, they
get massive numbers of people who want to come work for them. Everyone in
china has methods of communication, if Apple wasn't the best place to work,
they wouldn't have so many applicants. Word would get out.

Apple solved this problem before it ever became a problem, but they are
attacked because their brand is strong, and the people attacking them lack
integrity.

They're also being attacked because it fits a political agenda. Unions and
regulation have destroyed the manufacturing employment levels in the USA
(actual manufacturing capacity is higher now than then, but a lot fewer people
are employed) and so rather than recognize themselves as the cause of business
moving overseas, they wish to demonize the businesses that did move overseas
in the hope of coercing them to move back here. Every political season there
are proposals that companies be punished for doing business overseas. This is
why.

Thus perpetuating the fantasy that Apple runs sweatshops or uses "slave labor"
is politically motivated.

The reality: When Foxconn cut back overtime (in response to this muckraking)
the employees were very upset. They want to work more hours.

The employees have spoken...

\----

I digressed. My original point is, that all these other companies are
benefiting from Apple leading the way here. Apple is teaching the chinese how
to be ethical and to treat employees well, by requiring it, and all these
other manufacturers are benefiting from that.

This is a cost to apple, and it is a profit to those other manufacturers.

Thus it is really ironic when the media smears apple-- the company that has
literally revolutionized manufacturing in china, as far as working conditions
go.

~~~
ajross
You have a cite for Apple "revolutionizing" working conditions? Please,
they're a electronics designer. They contract with whoever bids lowest, and
always have. One of the big reason Foxconn is so large now is precisely
because they were the low bidder for Apple's business years ago.

Now, I agree with the premise of the linked article that Apple has been
unfairly tarnished for problems that are endemic to the industry as a whole.

But to flip this around and claim that Apple is somehow a champion fighting
for workers rights is ... just weird (and I'll admit that it makes me sad to
see this kind of completely unselfaware fawning on a site where discussion
used to be a lot more intellectually robust). Like the rest of the industry,
Apple didn't do poop about chinese workers until they were embarassed.

~~~
nirvana
> "Please, they're a electronics designer. They contract with whoever bids
> lowest, and always have."

Do you have a cite for your claim that Apple has never been holding their
producers up to a standard of quality, and has been entering into contracts on
the SOLE basis of price? Of course you don't, as this is just an ideological
statement, already refuted by my pointing out their history of audits and high
requirements.

> "One of the big reason Foxconn is so large now is precisely because they
> were the low bidder for Apple's business years ago."

One of the reasons Foxconn was a relatively low bidder _all those years ago_
was because in their partnership with Apple they acquired a great deal of
knowledge about how to build products to Apple's exacting standards, and how
to run a large business employing large numbers of employees and treat them
well. This has, in fact, allowed Foxconn to grow to a very large business, and
might be the one thing that separated them from the pack of contract
manufacturers that came about at that time-- many of whom offered lower prices
and were competing solely on price.

>But to flip this around and claim that Apple is somehow a champion fighting
for workers rights is ... just weird

Actually, no flipping is involved. It is a simple statement of fact. Apple has
been auditing its suppliers going back decades and including inside china
since it started manufacturing there.

>"makes me sad to see this kind of completely unselfaware fawning on a site
where discussion used to be a lot more intellectually robust"

Frankly, it makes me sad to see people who cannot make an argument, cannot
respond to the argument that has been made, and instead are only able to
misrepresent the argument and engage in the kind of ad hominem you just have.
There is zero "intellectual robustness" in your response, as your response
comes completely from your mindless hatred of Apple. This is why the site is
in such decline-- simply mentioning anything positive about Apple (or other
chosen targets of hatred) or negative about Google or Amazon (or other chosen
targets of adoration) results in down votes and these kind of mindless snotty
responses.

> Like the rest of the industry, Apple didn't do poop about chinese workers
> until they were embarrassed.

This is a flat out lie. But you believe it because others with the same
ideology as you have said it, and so you just assert it here, comfortable that
the down vote brigades will have your back. Your entire post is a prime
example of the kind of content free, pure ideological response that makes
"intellectually robust" discussion impossible here.

Did you make a counter argument? No, you just demanded a "cite". Did you
defend your assertions as I did? No, you just made broad, obviously false
assertions. Did you respond to the point? No, you attacked me personally with
derogatory characterizations. Did you defend your ultimate point? No, you just
made an assertion that fallacious on the face of it, as would be obvious to
anyone who had been paying attention to this issue for more than a few months
(apple's been publishing reports of supplier audits for years, and has been
doing the audits for decades.)

You are why Hacker News is in decline and why anyone who is capable of
argument-- such as myself-- is hesitant to post here, because there really is
no point in attempting to engage in debate given the mindless hordes who make
purely ideological posts like yours.

In fact, I'm certain that it is-- ironically-- Apple's decades of integrity
that is the very _reason_ you hate them so. They have done right, and they
won, even after you all thought there was no way they could ever be something
more than a marginal player--- so rather than bashing them for being marginal,
you're now bashing them for their success.

~~~
ktizo
_You are why Hacker News is in decline and why anyone who is capable of
argument-- such as myself-- is hesitant to post here_

I'd hate to see what happens when you aren't being hesitant.

~~~
AlisdairO
You're talking to someone who was convinced Apple was the sole inventor of
multi-touch, abused everyone who claimed otherwise, and then disappeared when
definitive counter-proof was provided, without apologising. He's an arrogant
fanboy (not a term I use lightly), and he's not worth arguing with.

~~~
nirvana
Your comment is a perfect example of what I'm talking about. You made six
claims, all of which are false, and none of which you provide any evidence of.
To best of my recollection, this "counter-proof" was the movie 2001: A Space
Odessey.

Your comment is pure insult, and much worse, you tell flat out lies about me.

I'm sorry that you wish to believe the fiction that Apple didn't invent multi-
touch, or that a movie counts as prior art.

But you impeach yourself, when you, and others, run around this site telling
such lies about people. Its nothing more than personal attack, and you are in
fact engaging in the very abuse you accuse me of. By the way, my "abuse" was
describing the details of the technology in question.

I am always able to defend my positions with logic, facts and argumentation.
The problem is, so rarely do I get counter arguments, that such defenses are
not often necessary. (notice all of the responses to my posts here are
characterizing me, rather than addressing my arguments, for example.)

Instead, you guys get into such a blinding rage at the fact that I might dare
point out these facts that you have no other ability to respond than to attack
me personally.

No response from me, should be necessary, but Hacker News is overrun with this
kind of partisanship to the point where you feel comfortable saying something
that, quite frankly, should get you hellbanned.

> "You're talking to someone who was convinced Apple was the sole inventor of
> multi-touch, abused everyone who claimed otherwise, and then disappeared
> when definitive counter-proof was provided, without apologising. He's an
> arrogant fanboy (not a term I use lightly), and he's not worth arguing
> with."

Ah, I see from looking at your comment history, you're attacking me for
political and ideological reasons. You're attempting to intimidate me into
silence by engaging in ad hominem. Exactly as I indicated was going on on HN.

Thank you for providing such a nice example.

~~~
AlisdairO
That's impressively wrong, well done.

Here, I looked up the relevant portion of the comment thread for you:
<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3262469> . You supported your claims
about Apple inventing multi-touch with a claim that Apple had trademarked a
specific definition of multi-touch - thus allowing you to dismiss out of hand
people citing earlier screens that supported multiple touches. You accused at
least one of these people of lying. I showed you that you were wrong, that the
trademark application you cited had been denied because the term _is generic_.
Hence, other people's examples of multi-touch interfaces were perfectly valid.

Another user cited a cofounder of Fingerworks stating that multi-touch was not
a single innovation: <http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3263335> .

I'm not really sure what 'political and ideological reasons' you think I have
- I have no idea of your political history, and have only noticed your posts
related to Apple. I am a happy user of several Apple products and, on the
whole, admire them as a company despite certain faults. I'm just not a rabid
fanboy.

> The problem is, so rarely do I get counter arguments, that such defenses are
> not often necessary.

Funny how you stopped arguing at the _exact_ moment your position became
indefensible, and were so keen to do so before then. I'm honestly finding it
hard to work out if you're trolling me or not.

------
recoiledsnake
As we are constantly reminded here, Apple takes 80% of the phone industry
profits and thus deserve proportionate blame for working conditions.

They make $575 in profit from an iPhone but pay the Foxconn workers $7 to
assemble it. They could double the pay and still make a very huge profit. On
the other hand, many other companies like Amazon and Microsoft sell the
hardware for a loss, hoping to make it up on software and media purchases.

Meanwhile, the other companies are not doing very well, and labor cost
increases for them might put them out of business entirely and then the
workers won't even have a job. HTC doesn't have $100 billion in the bank and
recently reported a bad quarter. This is why Apple is criticized more since it
has most leeway of all the companies mentioned in the article to increase
wages.

~~~
Xuzz
That $575 number is nonsensical; the iPhone 4S (the most expensive model)
costs $599 off-contract. These phones do not cost $25 to make. The real number
is somewhere around $300, most of which paid by the carrier:
<http://www.asymco.com/2012/02/26/iphone-sine-qua-non/>.

Regardless, doubling the pay for workers does not solve the real issue here.
Their wages are _already_ above average for Chinese factory workers in that
area. If you want these workers to be paid a first-world wage, that's a much
larger issue than how much Apple pays their final assembly workers.

Also, Foxconn does not build just phones. It's used by most desktop and laptop
manufacturers, where Apple is certainly not in the lead, and to assemble all
game consoles, where Apple doesn't even have products. Microsoft, for example,
is responsible for the workers in the incident mentioned here:
[http://kotaku.com/5874706/report-mass-suicide-threats-at-
xbo...](http://kotaku.com/5874706/report-mass-suicide-threats-at-
xbox-360-plant) (I don't think Microsoft would have an issue paying more, for
example.)

Now this is not to underplay the problems in Chinese manufacturing, of which
there are many. But Apple is certainly not singularly able to make any changes
here.

~~~
cooldeal
>That $575 number is nonsensical;

Well, then maybe Slashdot is wrong too:

[http://mobile.slashdot.org/story/12/04/08/0546247/google-
ear...](http://mobile.slashdot.org/story/12/04/08/0546247/google-earns-2-per-
handset-apple-575)

>"While Apple generates more than $575 in profit for every iOS device, and
according to estimates in 2007 Apple earned more than $800 on every iPhone
sold through ATT, Horace Dediu reports that Android generated less than $550m
in revenues for Google between 2008 and the end of 2011, earning only $1.70
per year, per Android device — explaining how Apple is sucking up two thirds
of the profit in the mobile phone business.

~~~
ktizo
That '$575 in profit' is, from the context, how much profit they make on
average per year from an iOS device, not just the profit margin on the sale
price, otherwise the comparisons to android's yearly profit would not make
much sense.

~~~
TazeTSchnitzel
Yeah, they get a cut from contracts and also app sales.

------
wseymour
tl;dr

Because we live in a world where success is discouraged, and mediocrity is
celebrated.

