
USCIS is challenging an unusually large number of H-1B applications - prando
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-11-06/trump-s-h-1b-reform-is-to-make-life-hell-for-immigrants-and-companies
======
komali2
Conservatives may generally view this as "good" regardless of the impact
because (according to arguments I've heard) "the less globalization, the
better."

In my mind, however, it boils down to two pretty simple points:

Given that (1) the US is lagging far behind every developed nation in
education, and higher education in the US is prohibitively expensive compared
to other developed nations, (2) the only way for the US to remain on the R&D
playing field is to attract already educated/trained people from other nations
with the lure of misc benefits of living in the US (culture, safety,
stability, philly cheese steaks). Take away our ability to import talent and
there goes the last leg of American dominance in technology.

No more American students that can compete with Chinese, Taiwanese, Japanese,
or German ones, leading to less innovation in a generation. No more immigrant
students making their money and starting their businesses here (or working for
American R&D departments) because they can't get a visa - and possibly even
worse, well-trained highly educated Americans leaving because of the obvious
end-game (reduced GDP causing all sorts of ripple effects in local economies,
safety, etc).

I just don't understand why we wouldn't want to make it as easy as possible to
steal talent that another country invested in. We take a 23yo Chinese
engineering graduate as he's going to begin peak productivity - the USA didn't
have to invest in his k-12, scholarship his university, clean the water he
drank for 24 years, etc. Instantaneous social profit. He joins Chevron and is
turning a profit for them within the year, pumping out research and getting
taxed on his 100k/year salary, spending his money in-country and oh well,
maybe he sends a bit (already taxed) home.

Am I being reductive? Seems to be a very poor investment to make it harder for
the highly educated to come into this country, without at the very least
making a massive push for higher education across the board for our own
citizens (which we are not seeing).

EDIT: To clarify my points: There are 2 ways for a country to be
technologically advanced - train their own citizens, or steal other trained
citizens. Have neither of those and obviously, you will fall behind.

~~~
xraystyle
The stated purpose of the H1-B program is to allow companies to fill vacancies
with international applicants if they are unable to find US employees
qualified for the roles. I've never heard any sane, rational person object to
this use case.

The issue most people have is that the program seems to be rampantly abused.
Companies are replacing US workers with H1-B's sourced from companies like
Tata and Infosys at much lower salaries than US employees would normally
command. In some cases, they're just bringing in foreign workers for the time
it takes to train them, then having them work remotely and paying them even
less still.

Disney even made their US employees train their replacements before laying
them off: [https://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/04/us/last-task-after-
layoff...](https://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/04/us/last-task-after-layoff-at-
disney-train-foreign-replacements.html)

Southern California Edison was another company that did the same:
[https://www.computerworld.com/article/2879083/it-
outsourcing...](https://www.computerworld.com/article/2879083/it-
outsourcing/southern-california-edison-it-workers-beyond-furious-
over-h-1b-replacements.html)

It's this type of abuse where US companies are simply looking to fire US
citizens so they can pay slave wages to foreign contractors for the same work
that people are up in arms about.

~~~
damnyou
> The stated purpose of the H1-B program is to allow companies to fill
> vacancies with international applicants if they are unable to find US
> employees qualified for the roles.

This canard keeps getting repeated in HN threads. This is WRONG. 100%
absolutely completely WRONG. The only stated purpose of the H-1B program is to
allow foreigners with degrees (or equivalent experience) to perform skilled
work in the US. Here are the DOL requirements:
[https://webapps.dol.gov/elaws/elg/h1b.htm](https://webapps.dol.gov/elaws/elg/h1b.htm)

The only one that affects US workers is to "[p]rovide working conditions for
H-1B, H-1B1, or E-3 workers that will not adversely affect the working
conditions of workers similarly employed." (There are additional requirements
on H-1B dependent companies, but those don't apply to most companies.)

Here's a fact sheet from the DOL specifically about this matter:
[https://www.dol.gov/whd/regs/compliance/FactSheet62/whdfs62O...](https://www.dol.gov/whd/regs/compliance/FactSheet62/whdfs62O.pdf)

What you're talking about is requirements for an EB-2 or EB-3 green card.

~~~
einfach
> The employer, before petitioning for H-1B status for any alien worker
> pursuant to an H-1B LCA, took good faith steps to recruit U.S. workers for
> the job for which the alien worker is sought, at wages at least equal to
> those offered to the H-1B worker. Also, the employer will offer the job to
> any U.S. worker who applies and is equally or better qualified than the H-1B
> worker. This attestation does not apply if the H-1B worker is a "priority
> worker" (see Section 203(b) (1) (A), (B), or (C) of the INA). [0]

While it may not be the sole purposes as outlined in the link [0] you
provided, it does mean that the rules state this very fact that precedence is
to be given to US workers. So saying it's 100% wrong is... wrong as well.

[0]
[https://webapps.dol.gov/elaws/elg/h1b.htm#who](https://webapps.dol.gov/elaws/elg/h1b.htm#who)

~~~
mark-r
I like the idea, nearly a throw-away line in the article, that the H-1B visas
should be granted to the highest paying jobs rather than by lottery. That
would certainly cut down on the abuses.

~~~
0xbear
Bbbbbut, you’re agreeing with Trump when you say that.

------
Terr_
The particular anecdote in this article almost seems anti-convincing to me...
It suggests a job that _should_ get challenged:

> For Centro, a company in Chicago that makes technology for ad agencies [...]
> applied for visas for three young employees who already had the legal right
> to work for a limited time after graduating from college.

> To Clark's eyes, the position — which consisted of writing algorithms and
> required knowledge of multiple programming languages as well as a solid
> understanding of relational data storage systems — wasn’t a borderline case.

I dunno, that sounds a hell of a lot like a fluffed-up description of an
entry-level junior web-dev.

A server-side language + JavaScript + SQL queries. Not exactly the skill set
that requires you to go head-hunting overseas.

~~~
jarsin
Yup cant stand journalism today. Straight up mouthpiece for the rich.

Why did they not ask the company what the wage for that position is. How many
people in Chicago did they interview. Did they interview anyone over 50 who
has that exact experience? Did they approach anyone currently working in
similar jobs and offer them raises and other benefits to entice them over?

Truth is the Company did none of those things so the good loyal journalist
won't ask those questions.

~~~
comicjk
You're talking as if there are only two parties here: owners (rich) and tech
workers (not rich). But tech workers are well above the average US income. The
unspoken group in your argument is the consumer, who on average is poorer than
the tech workers. Lowering tech wages with H1B visas helps the consumers as
well as the owners, because it makes the marginal tech product less likely to
fail.

You might still think that the workers have the strongest claim. But as with
most protectionism, there's more to consider.

~~~
andonisus
You seem to be assuming that lowering tech wages will lead to more
participation by labor overall, but I think that it will instead just lead to
companies lining their coffers with the savings realized by replacing an equal
number of positions with lower-paid H1-B workers.

------
malchow
Two points:

1) Given that the numbers did indeed end up proving that wage arbitrageurs
like Accenture were dominating the H1B lottery
[[https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2015/11/06/us/outsourcin...](https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2015/11/06/us/outsourcing-
companies-dominate-h1b-visas.html?_r=0)], reform would seem to be necessary.

2) Trump has repeatedly called for a Canadian or Australian style skills-based
immigration system to replace chain and quota-based immigration. One would
think HN would generally support this?

~~~
giobox
I would also assume that few here would take issue with merit-based
immigration policies. The problem is arguably whether you trust Trump to
actually do what he says, especially when he uses immigration policy as a dog
whistle when preaching to his core vote.

~~~
dmix
> The problem is arguably whether you trust Trump to actually do what he says

Is Trump even the one doing it? I thought this was the job of congress?...
this seems well out of the scope of an executive order.

Hopefully they do end up copying Canada/Australia directly because they've
both performed really well and there is plenty of data there to support it.
Instead of the usual series of minor bandaids on top of the old broken system,
ala the US healthcare system.

~~~
giobox
Given final say on any bill rests with Trump himself (signature/veto when it
reaches his desk etc), I'm not sure this distinction matters all that much.

At any rate, the president is entirely free to propose a bill, and assuming he
can find a congress person to back it (I'm guessing he knows a guy who knows a
guy...), can have introduced in Congress. Even if Trump's team doesn't draft a
new bill, the lobbying power of the Whitehouse alone on legislation in
congress is huge - the threat of a veto alone is a compelling stick.

I think its absurd to think Trump/the executive wouldn't influence the shape
of any proposed legislation in this area, when its been such a public part of
his campaign.

~~~
dmix
It still has to first pass the hundreds of eyes in congress, that's the
primary challenge of any bill. Vetoing is relatively rare and I doubt he would
veto an immigration bill coming from a republican-majority congress...

That said, I never said he had zero influence, but having influence on a
congressional bill is a far cry from implying he wrote and proposed it
himself.

~~~
giobox
If you honestly believe the Executive in the US has this little influence on
policy agenda, I'm not sure what else to say!

I think most people are capable of understanding that when we talk about
"Trump" performing a legislative act, we almost never mean he literally picks
up pen and paper and writes the bill himself, or even directly proposes it.

~~~
dmix
> If you honestly believe the Executive in the US has this little influence on
> policy agenda,

Again, I never said that, or that he writes it directly himself. This is why I
don't debate politics on the internet.

My point is the bill is primarily a congressional matter, and is not at the
whims of just the president the way an executive order would be, as was
suggested above.

~~~
giobox
> This is why I don't debate politics on the internet.

This thread and your post history strongly suggest otherwise!

~~~
dmix
I post occasionally about political topics but I rarely engage in debates (the
key word here).

I find the other person usually just digs in their heels the more you reply...

------
dahdum
> Aegis applied for a half-dozen visas this spring, and only one of them made
> it through the lottery. The year before, Aegis secured a visa for someone
> filing a type of job he’s filled with H-1B workers in the past. So Narayanan
> set up a client project for the prospective new employee, a woman who was
> living in Dehli, India, at the time.

Sounds like they are exactly the type of consulting firm the administration is
attempting to crack down on.

> USCIS challenged the application in August, which irked Narayanan because he
> had provided everything the agency had asked for. Narayanan was doubly
> annoyed because, without someone else to handle the new contract, it fell to
> him directly. For the last month, Narayanan has been spending four or five
> hours each morning doing the work himself, forgoing his own primary
> responsibility, which is to bring in new clients. “We might not make the
> profit we were expecting because of these issues,” he said. “We are afraid
> of on-boarding new H-1B employees, because of the unknown world.”

My heart weeps for him. If he could do the work himself, is it really so
specialized he required H1B for it? Or was it more he just didn't want to pay
the local rates?

That said, having hired through the H1B program I sure hope it remains viable.
Reforms based on salary instead of lottery seem like a good compromise,
reducing outsourcing and low salaries endemic with H1B mills. I'd much prefer
a floating high salary floor (say top 25%) and uncapping H1B entirely.

~~~
solotronics
I always wondered why not make the H1B salary minimum the same as someone
exemplary in that field ( H1B salary 1.5x the average for the position ). If
someone is truly extraordinary then a company wouldn't mind paying a little
extra but it would influence the average price up and not down for the field.

~~~
bduerst
It already is. H1B visa holders are required to be paid more than the
prevailing wage for citizens working the same SOC job classification in the
same region.

~~~
natoliniak
I wish that was the case, but it is not. You can verify this yourself as H1B
salary data are publicly available [http://h1bdata.info](http://h1bdata.info).

Take a look for example at Wayfair in Boston. Majority of their H1B Developers
make around $50k-$70k. This is significantly less than the prevailing wages
around Boston, so it is quite clear that they are using H1Bs as cheap labor
source.

~~~
bduerst
Why don't you just link the query results?

[http://h1bdata.info/index.php?em=Wayfair+Llc&job=Software+En...](http://h1bdata.info/index.php?em=Wayfair+Llc&job=Software+Engineer&city=&year=2017)

Any while we're at it, why don't we pull the prevailing wage data?

[http://www.flcdatacenter.com/OesQuickResults.aspx?area=71654...](http://www.flcdatacenter.com/OesQuickResults.aspx?area=71654&code=15-1132&year=18&source=1)

Level 1 Software Engineers are paid on average $67k in that area, so by paying
them $68k, Wayfair is still paying more than the average wage for U.S.
citizens working the same position.

Wayfair is not driving down wages.

~~~
natoliniak
interesting. That is close to the salary I was starting with more than 10yrs
ago...Either the wages have stagnated around Boston or that number seems low.
Glassdoor reports ~$80k which is closer to what my current employer has been
hiring at, thats why the Wayfair numbers seems low to me.
[https://www.glassdoor.com/Salaries/boston-entry-level-
softwa...](https://www.glassdoor.com/Salaries/boston-entry-level-software-
engineer-salary-SRCH_IL.0,6_IM109_KO7,36.htm)

~~~
bduerst
My guess is your experience is anecdotal and open to bias. Same with
glassdoor, since it's self-submitted. The BLS's Occupational Employment
Statistic's prevailing wage data is fairly exhaustive.

------
matt_wulfeck
> _Centro had applied for visas for three young employees_

> _He’d received a letter from USCIS saying it would reject his application
> unless Centro proved the position required someone with specialized skills_

> _The position — which consisted of writing algorithms and required knowledge
> of multiple programming languages as well as a solid understanding of
> relational data storage systems — wasn’t a borderline case._

I'm going to disagree here. It sounds to me like a textbook example of a
company hiring a young, inexperienced worker because they're cheaper than
experienced ones.

To those getting old in the valley, it seems this type of action is _good
news_.

~~~
rrhd
Why shouldn't they do that?

If I have a bunch of people to keep them on track then hiring the cheapest
workers who can do the job sounds like good business.

~~~
andonisus
Because we would like our country to prefer our own citizens for such jobs,
when possible.

~~~
damnyou
"Because we would like our race to prefer its own members for such jobs, when
possible."

~~~
andonisus
How is that at all equivalent to what I said?

~~~
damnyou
Changing your in-group from being based on race to being based on citizenship
doesn't change the basic immorality of your position.

~~~
andonisus
There is no immorality around my position. We exist as a country to promote
the welfare of our own people. I should expect any country to place its own
citizens' interests above those of foreign nations.

Moreover, countries are generally defined by their geographic locations. The
actions of the people within them directly affect those around them. Local
economies are affected by influxes of labor and depression of wages.

A person's race is simply an attribute they possess; attempting to compare
this to a nationality makes little sense in this case. Someone's race does not
intrinsically affect the economy around them, whereas the wage they are paid
will.

~~~
damnyou
"We must secure the existence of our people and a future for [our] children."

There, fixed that for you.

> A person's race is simply an attribute they possess; attempting to compare
> this to a nationality makes little sense in this case.

Sounds great! Allow anyone who wants to be American to be American.

~~~
andonisus
What are you on about? Are you able to have a discussion about this, or are
you simply looking to discount any counter-arguments with feeble attempts at
dog whistling?

~~~
damnyou
Fine, here's my position: Immigration restrictions are a version of "separate
but equal" segregation that is somehow acceptable to talk about. Anyone who
wants to do a job, can do it, and is willing to move to where the job is
should be able to do it, regardless of where they were born or what papers
they have.

That they can't because a bunch of people have collectively decided to pull
the ladder up behind them is unjust, unfair and immoral.

~~~
andonisus
What about the people who want to do the job, can do it, are willing to move
to the job location, are American citizens, and are denied because they are
being replaced by cheaper H1-B workers?

These H1-B workers are not entitled to jobs in America. It is something we
offer to benefit both them and our country as a whole. It becomes detrimental
when these visas are extended at the expense of the American citizen who is
being displaced.

~~~
damnyou
It's great for the foreign worker!

Privileging citizens of your own country is no different from privileging
members of your own race.

------
pram
So now they’re just doing what was supposed to have been happening the entire
time? I’m having difficulty sympathizing with these companies and lawyers when
all they have to do is apparently file more paperwork.

~~~
sumitgt
It's not like that. Most top companies do detailed paperwork. This causes
other side effects and stress.

For example, you could be working at Google / Facebook earning top $$$$ every
year and you paperwork could be spotless. But the stress of having to go
through an uncertain renewal process every 3 years prevents you from investing
in big things like buying a house or having kids. You are always worried about
being able to return back to your stuff when you leave for a trip overseas.

Even though most top companies immediately apply for Green CArds, the "country
of birth" based green limits ensure that you have to remain in H1-B status for
15 - 20 years (if you happen to be born in India).

TL;DR: It's not the increased vetting that we fear, its the uncertainty and
complicated appeal procedures that can affect genuine H1-B cases.

~~~
throwkgaj
This was me. Working at big tech firm, $190+ salary, 6 years. Green card
applied and approved in 2014.

But Indians have to wait at least 5years for a green card(EB-2). And this was
before the current admin.

I’m now in Canada. Permanent Resident (took 8 months), $180k+ salary, big tech
company. Going to buy a house in the summer.

~~~
sumitgt
Actually it's currently looking more like 15 years. People with priority dates
in 2009 are just getting in. So if you account for the number (plus consider
the fact the people in EB-3 become eligible for EB-2 after a few years), it
looking more like 15.

The silly thing is, there is bipartisan bill in congress and Senate to fix it
(HR 392). But it is stuck is legislative limbo.

~~~
hjlkashd
Yes, this was also a major reason for leaving.

------
SkyPuncher
I deeply understand the need for H-1B's for bringing in highly talented
individuals. However, I can't stand how the argument seems to completely
ignore the Americans who are displaced because of abuse of the H-1B system.

It seems a bit deceitful to paint this story solely through the lens of
"immigrants" while lots of Americans are being directly replaced by H-1B
workers.

I do not expect to go to another country and displace local workers. I do not
expect to be granted a work visa in a place that I do not belong. If I go to
another country to work, I expect to be providing a skill or talent that is
not present in the local economy. Further more, I expect that I'd be teaching
that skill to others. Or at the very least, be in the position to lead the
growth and development of a team until a local worker can do my role.

Why should we expect any different from the H-1B's that the US grants?

~~~
friedButter
Which is the class of poor Americans being displaced by H1B workers earning in
excess of 100k at companies like Microsoft,Amazon,Google,etc which are
constantly hiring anyways?

~~~
masterrex
White males. Laugh, disregard it - but it's true. If you're a poor white male,
you don't really get a lot of assistance. I don't get special grants for being
white, I don't get a padded SAT score, I don't get preferential treatment - in
fact, it's the opposite. Not all white males are born with a silver spoon, and
they're certainly not all given an 'equal opportunity' when a "diverse" person
of lesser intellect can get financial and logistic support and lauded for
being born a different race.

Frankly, over time the average white American family is going to find it more
and more difficult to afford higher education, as if by design, to push them
out of the middle class. Meanwhile, poor non-whites will be granted
scholarships based on non-whiteness.

~~~
pm90
> Frankly, over time the average white American family is going to find it
> more and more difficult to afford higher education, as if by design, to push
> them out of the middle class. Meanwhile, poor non-whites will be granted
> scholarships based on non-whiteness.

No they wont. White females are still eligible for many of the same (gender
based) diversity advantages. The majority of college students in the US are
female.

Besides that, most of the wealth in this country is controlled by white
families. Which makes your assertion truly pointless: unless there is some
major cataclysm, white families will continue to pass on their advantages to
their offspring for generations to come.

~~~
logfromblammo
I feel like you're getting something backwards there.

Most of the wealth is controlled by white families. This does not imply that
all white families control wealth. Those white families that do control the
wealth aren't exactly sharing it around with all their 8th cousins. They sure
do share it with their direct descendants, and pass on advantages that way,
but if any non-rich white person is advantaged, it is likely only because the
rich white people are observably racist when delegating their authority and
managing their assets. Imagine for a moment someone so racist that their
toilets may only be cleaned by a white person, and realize that people like
that do exist. So yes, I guess that white loo-scrubber is advantaged, by not
having to compete quite as much, in a very minor way.

There are plenty of white families out there who know that _no-one_ is on
their side, who believe that the illusion of equality is being pursued by
cutting them down rather than raising everyone else up. And they believe that
immigration is diluting their family's voice, rather than augmenting it. And
many of them are "checking out". They turn to a bullet or a syringe, or
blindly follow any person that tells the lies they most want to hear.

The rich and powerful are free at any time to erase the echo of privilege
enjoyed by middle class white people simply by not hiring them preferentially
over darker people. Which is what is happening. And while that is happening,
the reactive measures to prior institutionalized racism remain in place. The
problem is not with affirmative action or feminism or egalitarian movements,
but that the old money is far too powerful politically, and that the rich kids
are not as disgustingly racist as their parents. So there will likely be a
generation at some point where middle class white families have zero
advantages, non-white families will have some preferences stemming from
ongoing racial equality movements from the 1960s to the present, and the data
that show they are no longer needed have not yet been collected and published.

And that generation is going to have _a lot_ of neo-Nazis and white
supremacists in it, because people will still be telling them about white
privilege when they remember growing up in a manufactured home, eating cold
Spaghetti-Os and Spam, watching other people get things that they were never
offered. I don't quite know if it is already here, or if it is still coming
and will be even worse than what we have already seen. But I do know that part
of the problem is attributing the source of privilege to any color other than
green.

------
mavelikara

       Even though Silicon Valley sees the H-1B program as one of
       its top political priorities, this campaign of reform by 
       red tape has avoided the frantic political fights 
       surrounding other aspects of immigration, like the proposed
       travel ban or the cancellation of DACA, a program for those
       who came to the country as undocumented children. 
    

This is conflating two different things - DACA and travel ban are issues
related to immigration; H-1B is about temporary guest workers. The (skilled)
immigration issue which concerns most of SV is green card backlogs. That has
not gotten any attention from SV leadership.

~~~
giobox
Given the H1-B is a "Dual Intent" visa, it is absolutely still about
immigration, the H1-B doesn't just allow for temporary workers. It provides a
well worn path to a green card and permanent residency in the US too, and in
my experience virtually everyone I've known to use the H1-B has done so.

The H1-B cap is surely a far more pressing concern for most technology firms
than the GC backlog. The H1-B cap and delays are making it significantly
harder to hire foreign workers. I don't think the big tech firms care nearly
as much about GC backlogs - if anything they probably like this, as it
arguably aids in staff retention if your workforce is less able to easily
switch job.

~~~
majormajor
I think the parent poster's point is that the H1B process is far from the
bottleneck there, for shops intending to bring along their foreign workers
rather than churn through cheap employees, which matches my experience.

~~~
giobox
I'd disagree - the H1B process can absolutely be argued to be the main
bottleneck for hiring skilled foreign tech workers right now, especially as
the cap has been exceeded by such an enormous number for several years.

------
outworlder
This is not only happening to H1-B Visas. I am on L1 Visa and got an RFE as
well. Lawyers said that they have seen a large increase in such requests.

I am in charge of production systems which, if they go down for any
significant amount of time, can represent hundreds of millions of dollars in
lost revenue. This is a very niche system(networking-related), not your usual
run of the mill web app. My salary is in the 6 digit range (and I have got
multiple raises since then). I have got awards from my company for work I have
and am doing.

Still got an RFE. Now, I'll have to dig into payslips from my home country,
get letters from former managers overseas, justify one more time all the
skills (which I already did multiple times), provide org charts(from the
current and previous position), and so on. I believe I have a pretty strong
case, but it's a very stressful process. All this to be allowed to continue
doing the stuff that was previously approved. And, unless I apply for a green
card, I can stay for 5 years max. So why make it even harder? There's already
an expiration date.

And I can't drive while this is going on (DMV wants the approved extension).
Fun times.

The US is a great country; I feel that some "natives" have no idea how great
it is, despite all its quirks. And, for engineers, the allure of Silicon
Valley is too great – everything of notice is happening here. I have chosen to
come here, and I knew that I need to jump through some hoops and prove my
worth, to both the country and the company. But at some point, you start
questioning if it is worth it.

Can an American do my job? Absolutely – if you can find one with the right
skillset that's willing to join. This position was open for MONTHS before the
company even considered hiring from outside the country. They tried increasing
the offers too, no takers, at least not qualified ones. The problem is that at
some point all the companies can do is to poach from one another.

Can you improve things with education? Yes. Do you want to avoid immigration
altogether? Why would you, when you can hire the best brains from anywhere in
the planet?

The problem is that there are companies heavily abusing the system. But they
are a handful, and they should get the hammer. That's from a rational
perspective though, not a politically motivated one.

~~~
comicjk
I'm rooting for you (and more usefully, donating time and money to political
candidates who can help you). My research group currently has a scientist who
took a year to recruit stuck in immigration. I wouldn't be surprised if he
gives up. It makes me furious what the alliance of nativism and greed is doing
to this country.

~~~
outworlder
Thank you.

Ultimately though, my predicament does not matter. What matters is, if they
are doing an immigration reform, that it is done for the right reasons, in a
humane way, and with measures supported by actual data. Bonus points for a
sane process.

------
friedButter
As an aspiring immigrant, I feel this is great. Instead of a situation where
immigration to US sort of works, sort of doesnt, is a hassle, but not really a
bad one, a lot of companies were still keeping major offices in US.

Now that Americans have made up their mind that they dont want immigrants,
companies will spend more money on opening engineering centers in immigration
friendly countries (Canada\west Europe\Australia(maybe),etc) which from a
personal perspective are great countries for me to immigrate to. And this time
I might would be able to catch the first wave of immigrants (who get to
convert to citizens) if there is a genuine boom in jobs in such countries
(unlike US where its near impossible for an EB2 immigrant to get citizenship
if moving today)

~~~
myth_drannon
That's already happening in Canada. All the major US IT companies started
establishing large offices here. All the announcements happened after Trump
got elected.

~~~
rrhd
If the wages weren't complete shit I'd move back tomorrow.

~~~
myth_drannon
If the wages weren't complete shit they wouldn't set up offices in Canada(well
and the tax breaks help too).

------
calvinbhai
I may be an exception and my experience may be anecdotal, but as someone on an
H1-B I think I'm seeing this as a good change. My immigrant peers working at
consultancies are seeing more RFEs, and those I know to be working as direct
employees are not (as often compared to consultant employees). But there's
been a net increase in site visits and verifications along with RFEs to even
legit applicants.

For those who dont know the process here's how and when one can get an RFE:

1) Missed a key point in the application or Immigration attorney goofed up
(this happens way often)

2) Position doesn't look like it needs a high skilled engineer with skills
mentioned in application

3) Grossly underpaying the H1b employee

Getting an RFE by itself is not the nightmare scenario. Its a problem if the
employer is doing things using shady loopholes.

What needs to be seen is by what %age RFEs have increased at companies like
Apple, Facebook, Intel, Google etc. The bigger companies use boutique
immigration law firms and its rare but not impossible for them to mess up on
the immigration application process.

I'm not sure what has Trump's administration done to reform the H1b system,
its still as crappy as it has been. If anything certain employers were abusing
the loopholes. Now its going to get tougher to abuse the loopholes.

------
RcouF1uZ4gsC
Instead of a lottery, we should have an H1-B auction. There are a limited
number of H1-B slots, and the companies that offer the highest salaries get
them.

In addition, whistle-blower protection with automatic Green cards for anyone
who reports employer abuse, with prison sentences for the entire company
C-suite if a company abuses this process.

~~~
matt_wulfeck
We’ve discussed the auction before here. My sentiment is that it would cause
all of the H1Bs to be concentrated in the Bay Area at a handful of companies.

~~~
Zigurd
In which case H1-B would be used only for high-end R&D talent not obtainable
in the US and would have little or no wage-depressing effect. What a terrible
problem.

------
balance_factor
It's great that these RFE's are happening, and Trump should have closed things
up even earlier. There are plenty of people with skills out there who may not
know every feature of Vue.js 2.5.3, or who are 30 years old and thus "not a
culture fit". Companies will start having to look for these people instead.
Enough is enough. There's not even an argument, it's whether the programmer
gets to make a salary in an industry where you're chucked overboard at 40, or
whether billionaire heirs get that money added to their pile of riches. It's
no contest. As far as Indians, they can work in India, or Europe, or apply for
a green card.

~~~
rrhd
> or apply for a green card.

Which they do when they arrive here on the H-1B. It takes decades and they now
have to go through even more stress about it because of this.

------
dmode
I just wish now that the US government would kill the H1-B and all other
immigrant visa and send us all home. I have spent 13 years here, I earn well
over 200K, have a kid. But every 3 years, I have to renew my visa and pray and
tell that there is no bullshit like RFE when visa is sent for renewal. And
then the DMV drama begins as your DL expires, but your application is still
not approved. When I came here, I had hope that the US government would make
improvements to the immigrant system in good faith, considering all I heard
from abroad was that this country is a "nation of immigrants". But it seems
like the fancy thing to do these days is to blame every ill on immigrants.

------
prepend
Couldn't this be positive if it stops all the body shop h1b companies that
just want cheap, basic programmers? This will then allow for visas for true
skills where there are gaps.

I've worked with hundreds of h1b visa, 90% of them were just java programmers
with a low bill rate. But there were also a few with really rare skills. I'd
like to see more of the latter and less of the former. Especially since the
number of h1b visa is capped.

------
daodedickinson
"It would reject his application unless Centro proved the position required
someone with specialized skills. Clark was surprised. She’d been helping
people apply for visas for four years, and this was the first time she’d ever
seen such a letter."

Four years, and this is the first time she's seen the government even try to
see if the law should be enforced. Really says it all.

~~~
desireco42
Centro shouldn't need to import people, what they do can be easily found in
Chicago, but they would rather not pay good wage it seems.

~~~
Nrsolis
This is really the central issue.

The H-1B program hasn't ever been a way to get solid talent from other
countries to come to the United States because equivalent talent can't be
found here. It's ALWAYS been a way to expand the pool of cheap technology
labor so that companies dependent on expensive skills can grow faster.

Economics is economics. Companies have an incentive to fight wage inflation
when they experience it due to a reliance on high-skill individuals.

I remember going to the offices of a well-known bank and finding nearly the
entire development staff comprised of foreign workers on H-1B. Most of them
were from India.

That can't be an accident and it's certainly not an indicator that talent is
in short supply. What's in short supply is CHEAP TALENT. H-1B workers are
cheap and don't have any ability to complain about their working conditions
because they can't move to another company as easily as a permanent resident
can. That alone is worth the legal hassle a company assumes when bringing in
these workers.

SO, word to the wise....make sure you stay one step ahead of the skill levels
of the Indian outsourcing companies or your days are numbered.

In the meantime, support candidates that are willing to rein in this amazing
abuse of our immigration policy.

------
danharaj
If only borders were as porous for workers as they are for capital.

------
raitom
Young french software engineer here. I was an intern with a J1 for a year in a
company in san diego. I'm working remotely since last february.

My H1B got picked in the lotery but I received an RFE early august. I had to
write a ton of technical doc about my job and the system I work on. The
documents were submitted mid-october. I received my approval last week.

I guess if your application is legit you don't have much to fear about getting
an RFE.

------
akhilcacharya
Cracking down on Indian outsourcers is one thing, but if this is true

> The skeptical eye the government is taking to applications has extended to
> all types of employers, according to immigration lawyers. Many are
> rethinking their own use of H-1B as a result.

This is absolutely disastrous. I personally know families on H1B from well-
known American companies are afraid to leave the country because of this.

------
stuffedBelly
You know what, as an H1B receiver, I am fine with more scrutiny towards H1B.
Over the past few years, I have seen competent international coworkers not
able to get H1B visa because:

1\. it's a lottery system, regardless of background and academic
accomplishment.

2\. it's been abused by outsourcing companies. Practices such as multiple-
filing for one person are so shady that it baffles me how loose the inspection
towards H1B application is.

I totally agree that American citizens should be prioritized when it comes to
hiring and my country would do the same for its citizens. I also know that
immigration service is a booming business for many American law firms and they
have their own agenda to go against any further regulations towards H1B.
However, in a long run, if done properly, a more merit-based/restricted H1B
visa could actually be beneficial to outstanding individuals who follow the
rules.

As someone that love American culture but also have pride in his
academic/career accomplishment, I stay in the US because I like this place,
not that I have to, and I am more than happy to go back to my homeland or
somewhere welcoming if I am not welcomed here anymore. H1B has never been the
last straw of my life and it's true for many folks I know. I am all for making
H1B more accessible for accomplished individuals and more restrictive towards
those who cheat the game, but do it properly so that America doesn't give an
image of Xenophobia to the world.

------
t1o5
ex H1B here. I left US because of this broken system. There are many bad
apples than good ones utilizing the H1B system. Indian bodyshops, one room
consultancies all over New Jersey. Even companies like
Sprint,Walmart,TR,Garmin,BOFA,Chase,Visa,AMEX, they all game the system and
exploit H1B employees because of their situation. There are a lot of fake
payroll running firms too which keeps the fake H1B employee's status valid.
There are firms which apply for "future greencards" while the beneficiary is
not even physically present in the US.

Even many non CS graduates faking their resumes as CS ones and applying for
"specialized" positions in IT. I had enough of this and left US and immigrated
to Canada for good because I am pretty sure that my future will be affected by
these bad apples gaming the system. I do not like Trump personally, but he is
right about the H1B immigration system.

If H1B system is a lottery, then why is it called a "skilled visa" ? H1B
should be merit based so as to weed out the bad apples and body shops gaming
the system.

Probably I should write a book on "How to game the H1B system and get away
with it". The book will be an eye opener for this broken skilled visa system
and its loopholes.

------
desireco42
This program was abused badly by US and Indian companies and put a number of
engineers in subservient position. I will not shed a tear for those companies.

For people, we should have one clear policy and apply it, if they can't come,
so be it, but tell them clearly what they can get and what they cannot. And
allow some transparency of the income and rates so that it can't be abused as
much.

~~~
mavelikara

      For people, we should have one clear policy and apply it,
      if they can't come, so be it, but tell them clearly what 
      they can get and what they cannot. 
    

+1.

~~~
desireco42
And let them travel and know the path to Green Card if they decide to stay.
Otherwise then they get milked by lawyers.

------
asfsa
Serious question here: Why not get rid of the closed number and charge a 100%
immigration tax to the employer?

Cheap labor would be priced out unless American really cant substitute the
imported labor. Employers would encourage employees to get a green card (as
opposed to doing everything in their power to keep them chained to the H1B)

What are the negatives (except for the obvious problems of taxes, of course)

~~~
dmode
This will basically kill all immigration. Employers have to go through a LOT
to hire an immigrant, and I almost feel sorry to ask an employer to file an H1
transfer. They have to hire an army of lawyers and pay steep fees to file all
the paperwork and go through a process when it comes to green card. If you ask
them to pay a lot, they will just hire somewhere else.

------
vermontdevil
Yet Trump's own Mar-a-Lago is abusing H-2B to obtain 70 foreign workers:

From the article: "It’s unclear whether the Trump Organization had made an
extra effort to try to fill the jobs.

In July, the club placed an ad on Page C8 of the Palm Beach Post: “3 mos
recent & verifiable exp in fine dining/country club,” the ad said. “No tips,”
Fahrenthold reported.

The ad, which ran twice, gave no email address, mailing address or phone
number and instructed applicants to “Apply by fax.”"

Hypocrites.

[https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/powerpost/wp/2017/11/05/...](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/powerpost/wp/2017/11/05/trump-
who-urged-people-to-hire-american-secures-70-foreign-workers-for-mar-a-lago/)

~~~
meragrin
The Palm Beach Post posted on their blog about three ads for Mar-a-Lago. The
three ads were published on July 27th and all have an address at the end with
a job number to reference. The server ad at the bottom seems to be the one
they are referring to.

[http://realtime.blog.palmbeachpost.com/2017/08/07/want-a-
sea...](http://realtime.blog.palmbeachpost.com/2017/08/07/want-a-seasonal-job-
at-trumps-mar-a-lago-club-fire-up-the-fax-but-the-number-doesnt-seem-to-work-
realdonaldtrump/)

------
salviasloth
It seems like the pretense of these changes is to affect the "infosys" style
of visas. Does anyone have any insight on how this will affect getting visas
for higher end jobs?

------
qmachu
Young, European, High-skilled worker here, who've been working on core
Kubernetes products for three years. Got several job offers for key infra
positions in various companies @ 200-250k+. Trump administration came in,
decided to RFE+NOIR my H-1B with a bullshit reason, had to go back to my
country, which is not my really home anymore whatsoever (wife/friends here).
So yeah, that just happened. It's not only about abuses and 'Indians'.

------
vmarsy
I don't like pieces like this who mostly make people who are in a true need of
an H-1B more anxious.

For instance, statements like this one below are suppose to make the reader
think something is deeply wrong:

> She said in past years she's counted on 90 percent of her petitions being
> approved by Oct. 1 in years past. This year, only 20 percent of the
> applications have been processed.

But, this year Premium processing was disabled for most of the year so that
would explain this, wouldn't it? For those unaware, Premium processing is
where the petitioner can pay an extra $1225 on top of all the existing fees,
to have its case processed in at most 14 days. Without premium processing it
can take months & months instead. Also, without the fees for premium
processing, I wouldn't be surprised if USCIS have less employees able to work
the cases. It was disabled specifically because the Regular processing cases
backlog was getting too big. So if last year 90% of her cases used Premium
Processing, the quote isn't shocking at all.

The same lawyer maintains her personal blog, where she isn't as dramatic, and
gives more useful facts:
[http://immigrationgirl.com/](http://immigrationgirl.com/)

Premium processing is now back[1], it'd be interesting to see if the statement
still holds true.

[1] [http://immigrationgirl.com/premium-processing-is-back-for-
al...](http://immigrationgirl.com/premium-processing-is-back-for-
all-h-1b-petition-types/)

------
1024core
The solution is simple: rank the H1B applicants by descending order of wages,
and take the top 65K. Period. Done. End of story. No more abuse.

~~~
rrhd
What about professions that just pay lower? If 100k is well above market for a
profession it's still not particularly high for a software dev.

~~~
1024core
But H1Bs are not meant to get _cheap_ labor; they're meant for _impossible to
find_ labor.

~~~
rrhd
No, they aren't. They are meant for skilled labour. The bar is a degree.

~~~
1024core
No, they're meant for jobs that cannot be filled by an American; not just any
"skilled labor".

------
bsvalley
I don't understand why companies are still trying to bring people in the US to
work for them. What's the point for the employer? How about investing overseas
and training people here to handle remote offices? That's where we failed in
the past... because it was too hard to manage and would require spending extra
money to fix the mess. So we all decided to bring everyone in-house which is
obviously a much bigger issue. I think we should invest more time in building
infrastructures in other countries in order to create top of the line working
places outside of the US. This would probably end up costing less and would
help hiring way more people.

Again, create new positions in the US like a "Remote Office Manager" and build
kick ass campuses in India, China, Europe, etc.

The whole immigration thing would be totally obsolete... I mean, we will be
able to travel to Mars soon... why can't we even manage remote employees in
2017?

------
fortythirteen
I'm having a hard time finding sympathy for an industry that has
systematically abused this system, with the direct intent of artificially
lowering wages.

I also find it hilarious that the same people who are always going on about
the "evil rich" and the wage gap are the most likely to be against culling one
of the biggest loopholes out there.

------
ultimoo
One of the strangest things with visas is that the agency that authorizes a
person to work (DHS/USCIS) is different and has different objectives from the
agency that issues the actual visas (DoS). With a valid USCIS work
authorization a person already in the US can continue working legally, but the
moment they step out of the country they need to apply for a visa with a US
consulate (DHS). Applying for a visa with the DHS can take less than a week or
more than 6 weeks (despite having all the correct documents). With the people
I've spoken to, this causes a great deal of anxiety when travelling
internationally.

TL;DR: A work authorization document issued by one agency allows a person to
maintain legal presence in the US. This is different from a visa -- a visa
allows one to enter the country and is issued by another agency. The visa
doesn't clearly specify what one can and cannot do while in the country.

------
BuckRogers
The self-fulfilling prophecy of "there's no Americans to do these jobs" is
coming to an end. In a nation of 330 million people it's been an incredulous
argument and it's ruined at least 2 generations from entering STEM. People
talk about women in STEM, we have a bigger issue, no one is in STEM.
Conservatives like to say you get more of what you subsidize, and they've been
subsidizing the rest of the world for a very long time. I hope this is a shift
in the tide and not a temporary blip.

------
pvelagal
Here is my take on H1B, which after checking some facts, is the last thing to
worry for an average US tech worker, who don't like H1B.

 _) 65k Visas + 20k (for US educated MS degree holders) = 85k total every
year. Lets say each one gets a 130k salary (Senator Chuck Grassley 's
recommendation) = ~$12 billion

_) $12 billion Income. Lets say all these H1Bs send 25% back to their home
countries = $3 billion gone out of USA, $9 billion spent in USA

 _) India 's Software exports to USA in 2016 - (61+24.4+22.4 = $107.8 billion)
source : [https://www.statista.com/statistics/320753/indian-it-
softwar...](https://www.statista.com/statistics/320753/indian-it-software-and-
services-exports/)

_) Majority of these exports are to US. If we assume, the cost of getting
software work done in India/China is probably 1/3rd of its cost in US, means,
India, which exported ~$100+ billion worth of software, would have equalled
$300 billion if the work was done in USA (thus creating jobs in USA).

*) India, through its software exports sucked $300 billion out of USA and hence took away jobs in USA.

Bottom line is, the rise of India's, China's software industries will suck the
money out of USA. So, these numbers mean : H1B don't take jobs, Software
engineers in India, China and rest of the world are taking them at an order of
magnitude faster !

~~~
kamakazizuru
this math is flawed in so many ways, I dont know where to start...

~~~
pvelagal
Please correct me.

------
jstewartmobile
Another field report:

Our town has a state university and a modest tech employment market. Every
H-1B holder I've met a) went to the local university, b) works at a hospital
or law office, c) writes CRUD apps in Java or C#.

They're good dudes, but hard to imagine that any of them are the kind of
alpha-double-plus-good talent that couldn't be locally sourced.

------
davidw
I wrote about this a while back and think it's still valid:

[https://journal.dedasys.com/2014/12/29/people-places-and-
job...](https://journal.dedasys.com/2014/12/29/people-places-and-jobs/)

------
kvhdude
i'd probably be voted down (even deservedly so). But i cannot resist : what
unique sort of modelling work could an american not fullfil that the first
lady was given H1B?

------
scardine
Will this increase the number of remote positions (work from anywhere) for
software developers?

------
babesh
I am really interested in seeing whether the tech companies eventually bend
the knee.

------
jijji
you know its bad when all your neighbors speak hindi, or when at work when
you've been there for years, and you don't know any of your co-workers because
none of them speak english (at fortune 500 companies in the US)

------
damnyou
Ah yes, gotta love H-1B threads. The latent nativism among the Hacker News
crowd is laid bare.

Here's a radical proposal: give anyone with a clean criminal record and a job
offer a green card. No limits, no $100k minimum wage, no protectionism. If
you, with all the advantages that natives get (networks, language, NETWORKS),
can be beat by an immigrant with zero social connections, you probably are
worth less than you think you are. Time to compete, pal.

Anything less is opportunity hoarding based on the patch of dirt you were born
on.

~~~
EdSharkey
I just don't like to see people made into indentured servants. Here's my
radical proposal: let H1B's change jobs once a year, as long as they're
employed somewhere in the industry they're here for and their visa hasn't
expired, they can stay. "Sponsoring" companies should not be allowed to keep
slaves.

I don't think your radical proposal makes much sense. What's the benefit to a
country to basically throw its borders wide open?

~~~
damnyou
> What's the benefit to a country to basically throw its borders wide open?

More people means a bigger economy. Immigrants -- at least the ones that
choose to immigrate -- are by definition risk-takers. Risk-taking is core to
entrepreneurship. I hope I don't have to defend the value of entrepreneurship
on this site.

We've known for thousands of years that free trade is a net positive for
everyone involved. Why would free immigration be any different?

The US had open borders for centuries. It became the most powerful country in
the world because of open borders.

Here's an economist far more literate than me making the case:
[http://johnhcochrane.blogspot.com/2014/06/the-optimal-
number...](http://johnhcochrane.blogspot.com/2014/06/the-optimal-number-of-
immigrants.html)

(We should also welcome all the refugees we can get, of course.)

~~~
EdSharkey
Nah. You're just making emotional arguments because not all risk-taking
immigrants are entrepreneurs. We're not running a charity, why would you talk
as if we are?

> (We should also welcome all the refugees we can get, of course.)

What trolling nonsense. We must control who comes and who gets turned away,
it's the only fair and equitable option for the citizens and resident aliens
who already live here. Because priorities.

------
masterrex
I'll be excited about solutions when the quality and price of education
changes for Americans. There is no 'affirmative action' for the average white
male to ensure access to affordable higher education.

~~~
rrhd
So go to community college for 2 years and then transfer to a state school.

I went to a pretty meh public university. Didn't hold me back.

------
1_2__4
I feel like a lot of the arguments around immigration - including H1-Bs - boil
down to two pretty straightforward opposing views of immigration:

1) "We" have built something great and unique, and we want others to be able
to partake of and contribute to it, but the greatness and uniqueness of it is
special and we want to preserve that. This is the more conservative view.

2) "We" have an environment where great things can happen, and so we want to
bring people into it and add their greatness to it to make it even greater.
There is nothing special about what we have, nothing that warrants preserving,
and in fact change - constant, disruptive change - is naturally good. This is
the more liberal view.

It bothers me that (1) is often conflated with racism, admittedly (the
bothering part) because it's something I happen to agree with despite being
mostly liberal on other issues. I DO think we here in America have a culture
worth preserving, and while I want to open it up as much as possible to the
world, I won't support doing so to the detriment and/or dissolution of what we
have. I don't think constant disruption is naturally good; I didn't when I was
younger and I don't think it is now.

But anything even approaching a whiff of something like "preservation" is
immediately labeled racist dog-whistling (which seems insane to me). Any kind
of "hey, maybe non-Americans are trying to exploit this and that's not good"
is racism. Saying that perhaps as much diversity as possible even if just for
diversity's sake in all things is maybe not the best thing - again, racism.

We need to recognize that there are real, non-racist and completely rational
and informed reasons why people are uncomfortable with things like H1-B abuse,
and that we don't all agree on what immigration _should_ be or accomplish.

~~~
tkahnoski
I don't understand this view of the world. I'd like to ask some questions to
better understand. Not debate, understand. I spent a lot of time picking apart
the various parts.

I largely see immigration issues as capitalist vs. socialist spectrum. The
capitalist wants little control over the flow of resources for a more
efficient distribution of resources. The socialist wants to control the flow
allocation of resources for a fair distribution of resources.

So when you state the conservative position, I see that you want to control
the flow of labor. What threats do you see from the flow of labor posing to
the greatness and uniqueness of the US? Currently I see it as the opposite of
imposing socialist tendencies impairing US companies from being able to
compete with other countries that don't have the similar controls. Maybe we
disagree on what makes the US culture unique.

With the liberal point of view stated, I can understand the parts about
disruption and change as the capitalist point of view except for the claim
about "there is nothing special about what we have, nothing that warrants
preserving". I don't see how immigration jeopardizes 'specialness' nor how it
harms the preservation of things. We already have a wide dirth of cultural
diversity dating back over many centuries, my guess is there is something in
particular you value.

I could look at things like Cinco de Mayo or St Patrick's day as examples of
immigration both preserving special things as well as harming these through
dilution and cultural appropriation.

Maybe what your trying to say in many words is liberals are pro-change and
conservatives are anti-change? Which is kind of the dictionary definition of
the words, but I digress...

I have more thoughts on how quick people are to throw 'racist' around, but
that'll have to wait for another time. All I can say is that we're probably
trying to preserve different things we consider great about our country.

------
harmlessposter
Time for companies to hire Americans and train Americans rather than
attempting to suppress wages.

~~~
matt_wulfeck
Specifically, stop simultaneously saying there’s a tech worker shortage while
discriminating against workers over the age of 40.

~~~
rrhd
How many high priceed senior staff are needed?

------
rrhd
[http://h1bdata.info/index.php?em=aegis+company&job=&city=&ye...](http://h1bdata.info/index.php?em=aegis+company&job=&city=&year=All+Years)

The Aegis Company listed in the article is paying devs 55k a year in the
seattle area.

I'm wondering if this is targeted at the places that seem to pay well under
market rate.

~~~
bduerst
According to OFLC, the entry-level prevailing wage for developers in the
Bellevue area (where these developers work) is $39k. Paying $55k for a level 1
or 2 isn't unreasonable because it's more than the average pay of citizens in
the area working the same job.

[http://www.flcdatacenter.com/OesQuickResults.aspx?area=53000...](http://www.flcdatacenter.com/OesQuickResults.aspx?area=5300004&code=15-1199&year=18&source=1)

------
rrhd
> immigration should be merit-based

and cut in half. and a visa which requires in demand skills needs to be
curbed.

------
gaius
If your business can't survive without indentured labor - that's on you.
Simple as that.

The H1B situation could be fixed overnight by declaring the minimum wage to
be... one million dollars. Then we'll see it genuinely only used for rare
talent.

~~~
rrhd
> only used for rare talent.

Not the purpose of the visa.

