
Are diesel’s days numbered? A view from a trip to BYD’s electric bus factory - okket
https://arstechnica.com/cars/2018/08/are-diesels-days-numbered-a-view-from-a-trip-to-byds-electric-bus-factory/
======
CaliforniaKarl
I regularly ride on buses that were made by BYD. I have been for the past year
(or so), and have noticed a few things:

• The front destination signs seem to always have had problems. In addition to
the technical problem (that is, problems with the signs themselves), there is
also a weird build issue on some of the busses: The bus has a front panel
above the windshield, part of which (the part in front of the sign) is
transparent. For some reason, some buses got an unusually-small transparent
area, with a regular-size sign display, which meant that the test was always
partially-unreadable. I assume that different display hardware was supposed to
be used?

• The acceleration and braking dynamics are _very_ different compared to
diesel (and even diesel-hybrid) busses: Because so much torque is available
immediately when moving from a stop, it is very easy to jerk passengers
around. Similarly, the busses like to move into regenerative braking
immediately the foot is lifted off of the accelerator, often making another
jerk. It can be difficult to adjust (as a driver) if you're moving between
multiple different types of busses, during a week or even during a shift.

Both of the above issues are things that can be rectified, although I wonder
how much modification would be needed to get smoother acceleration and
braking. And regardless, the time needed for the bus to be out of service (to
implement any necessary modifications) is still time where the bus's value is
continuing to depreciate.

~~~
floatrock
Interesting about the acceleration and braking UX... that experience is
exactly what makes electric passenger cars feel sporty and responsive, but I
can see why you don't want that for municipal buses.

Then again, the "gas pedal" is basically a skeuomorphism dating back to when
it mechanically opened up a gas valve... it's all drive by wire, so, "fix it
in software"?

~~~
Moter8
Yep. As it is all controlled by software, this is being done today already.

Drove a Volkswagen E-Up. It had an Eco and an Eco+ Mode. Those seemed to just
limit the acceleration, and for a bus this seems mandatory.

~~~
usrusr
What makes limited acceleration more economic? Are there efficiency losses
that are dependent on the time it takes to convert x joule from
electrochemical storage to inertia?

~~~
bluGill
It is more about the shift points in the transmission. Your engine is most
efficient at around 90% throttle and "low" rpm. Your car is more fuel
efficient are highway speeds then city street speeds (aerodynamic factors are
insignificant at low speeds). The result is that engineers can trade
acceleration for efficiency by changing the shift points, and you don't
realize that the throttle is nearly wide open since the car isn't accelerating
very hard at the low rpms.

Of course the engineers who design eco mode probably know more about how to do
this than I do. I know they mess with shift points, it wouldn't surprise me if
they did other things too.

~~~
cmrdporcupine
EVs have no 'shift points' or changing gear ratios.

~~~
bluGill
Maybe or maybe not.

Some EVs have a transmission - while it isn't strictly required (which is why
others do not) for best acceleration you need one. If there is a transmission
this is a shift point.

Of course EVs have completely different operating parameters. The rest of my
post was respect to a internal combustion engine.

~~~
cmrdporcupine
Some EVs have a transmission, yes. My Volt has a planetary gear set in order
to share traction with the ICE. But that's not a pure EV.

But what they don't generally have, unless they are conversions from ICE cars,
is changing gear ratios. Torque is mostly constant across all RPMs in an EV,
so there's not really a need for one.

------
lowry
There are cool electric buses running in the streets of Minsk, Belarus since a
couple of years. IIRC, they have nikel-iron batteries with have limited
capacity but good lifetime, and they recharge quickly. An electric bus runs
for 30-40 min from terminus to terminus, then charges for 10 min from trolley
power lines.

Pretty neat, especially considering that nickel and iron are extracted in
nearby Russia and are much cheaper than lithium.

~~~
tim333
I came across this Minsk bus article while looking for a photo
[https://euroradio.fm/en/electric-buses-enter-service-
minsk](https://euroradio.fm/en/electric-buses-enter-service-minsk)

Interesting for this one it says: buses will be equipped with Chinese
supercondensers that proved to operate very well in Bulgaria and China. Re-
charging will not take more than 7 minutes.

------
_FKS_
Side-note: a barrel of oil gives a fixed amount of gasoline and diesel fuel,
and that's hard to change [1]. A given refinery could slightly change the
amounts, but not much, and that's billions in investments. Even if you
replaced diesel vehicles by electric ones, the diesel fuel will be burned
somewhere else.

[1] [https://www.e-education.psu.edu/fsc432/content/overview-
refi...](https://www.e-education.psu.edu/fsc432/content/overview-refinery-
products-and-processes)

~~~
akvadrako
Interesting - but there is lots of opportunity to burn it on boats or remote
generators.

~~~
runarberg
Indeed, but—since you mentioned it—there are a lot of missed opportunities in
electrifying short range passenger ferries. Many ferries might only sail for
20 minutes and remain docked for a while where they could be recharged. Even
on a busy ferry routes, a natural gas powered boats might actually make a lot
more sense then a diesel powered one. The only real use for a diesel engine
now might be for long distance cargo vessels, cross ocean passenger ferries,
and very very huge fishing trawlers (although I would very much like to see
the big trawlers vanish into history).

~~~
inferiorhuman
> there are a lot of missed opportunities in electrifying short range
> passenger ferries

About that:

[https://electrek.co/2018/02/03/all-electric-ferry-cuts-
emiss...](https://electrek.co/2018/02/03/all-electric-ferry-cuts-emission-
cost/)

------
TimTheTinker
Diesel will be with us for a very long time yet, even if all diesel buses were
to be swapped for electric.

\-- Diesel locomotives (train engines) and many ships use diesel generators to
power electric motors -- this setup is useful for applications where high
torque is required at low RPMs (even down to 0 RPM)

\-- Many grid support power plants use diesel generators (especially for
emergency backup)

\-- Diesel-powered trucks, tractors, and heavy equipment

\-- Military vehicles

~~~
IB885588
The first place to phase it out of is densely populated areas, because of all
the particulate matter pollution which is particularly bad for people's
health:

[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5352477/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5352477/)

~~~
Gibbon1
Friends comment is people constantly complain about maintenance trucks,
because they have to run the diesel engine to power hydraulics.

~~~
_ph_
Thats one beauty of a proper electric truck: you can operate all the power
equipment off the electric.

------
bmcusick
I like the discussion at the end about the difficulties on delivering the
busses long distance, and the lack of chargers big enough to recharge them. If
the Tesla Semi actually launches at some point, perhaps that will change and
we will get city-to-city electric busses too. Battery ranges should improve to
the point where that becomes practical over the next few years too.

What a great market that would be for Waymo. Predictable routes of mostly
highway driving would be right up their alley.

~~~
seanmcdirmid
With electric buses, at least, you can put the chargers at end point stations,
which is a cost but one bussing agencies can handle. Also, they cost much less
than the overhead wires electric trolley buses currently use.

~~~
Obi_Juan_Kenobi
One idea I've read is to use those overhead wires for BEV busses, but only on
certain segments. Most bus lines loop through a central area, so could charge
along a section of a few blocks that feature the overhead wires.

~~~
seanmcdirmid
Wire attachment is a big problem even for bus line me that are fully overhead.
Before the buses had batteries, a detachment often required shutting down the
road and bringing out a big truck to reattach the bus.

Seattle used to run dual gas/electric (not really hybrids since no battery) in
the downtown tunnel by having them attach going in and Unattach going out.
Great when it worked, but it often didn’t, so they just use cleaner emission
buses now instead.

------
Shivetya
Well, ask LA how that is working out [1]. While I applaud the effort it is not
without its problems. I always thought that we should have moved to electrify
school buses. while the initial expense is high it would have protected
systems from fluctuations in fuel prices that have put a real hurt on them at
times.

plus it would get kid used to the idea of an EV world and not having to sit on
buses idling for too long

[1] [http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-electric-
buses-2018...](http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-electric-
buses-20180520-story.html)

~~~
sampo
> Well, ask LA how that is working out

Just because America cannot make something work, doesn't mean it cannot work
in other countries. Especially in the public sector context, which is full of
mismanagement in America.

~~~
CaliforniaKarl
I don't think the parent comment was making that kind of point. The referenced
article was talking about problems that LA officials were seeing at (and with
the vehicles produced by) the BYD plant that is the subject of this post's Ars
Technica article. And I can vouch for that; as I detailed in another comment,
I often ride BYD buses that are old enough to be in the scope of the LA Times
article, and there are issues.

I expect this electric vehicle maker will get their act together with time!

------
sverige
It's interesting that electric trucks and buses are making a comeback. A
hundred years ago, they were pretty common in big cities.

Also, the article seems to acknowledge that city driving is the best
application for electric vehicles.

~~~
bluedino
That have 350,000 electric buses in China

~~~
rcMgD2BwE72F
16,000 just for Shenzen. They've made the full switch to EV this year for a
city of ~14 million inhab. It's crazy.

For comparison, Paris (I should say the Parisian region) plans to have only
2,000 zero missions buses by 2025! And that official numbers includes NGV...
So much talk about the transition (remember the "Paris Agreement"?) and yet,
so little progress...

------
DubiousPusher
Seems like there'd be significant savings in having multiple municipalities or
even entire states coordinate their bus orders.

It seems especially silly to order a custom looking bus because this would
obviously raise the price of replacement parts. Is this part of why old buses
always look like crap? Cities don't want to pay the crazy cost of replacing a
custom part that is clearly damaged or worn out.

~~~
jessaustin
City buses are not the only large vehicles that typically are manufactured
_after_ purchase. Firetrucks, concrete trucks, and many limousines are the
same. If you're going to build it by hand on demand anyway, why not add value
by building exactly what the customer wants? So long as designs stay within an
engineering envelope, which envelope can be pretty broad when we're talking
about something as simple as an electric bus, it doesn't add much cost to
accommodate the customer's particular needs. If those needs extend to having a
particular number of body panels in stock for future repairs, that's fine.
Nothing mechanical in the drivetrain would be custom (although I suppose the
batteries _might_ be, apparently they have a guarantee).

------
fpoling
Bosch in Germany used to have a big research facility dedicated to Diesel
engines and their control systems. They stopped that and converted the
facility to research and develop various control systems for electrical cars.
So Diesel days are numbered indeed.

~~~
eksemplar
Diesel is dying in Europe because you can’t enter a lot of cities in an older
diesel car. In a few years it’ll be any diesel car.

Green tech is a universal political point in Europe, at least north, Western
Europe, and car companies aren’t stupid. It takes time to alter production,
but they are getting there, as demands keep increasing.

In Norway half the cars sold are electric. I personally own a petrol car, but
I doubt I’ll replace it with a fossil.

------
tehabe
BYD busses don't look anything special, yes they are electric but you can get
those from a lot of manufacturers. Also they are only partially low floor.

More interesting is the Aptis by Alstom, still more or less a prototype but
its design is really something innovative because it increases the room in the
bus and it is 100% low floor.

------
jcrawfordor
I find it interesting that this article doesn't mention the Albuquerque Rapid
Transit (ART) debacle. The political mess surrounding ART is far from entirely
due to BYD, but ART placed what I believe is the largest order so far for
60-foot electric buses from BYD. The comment about driving the 60-foot units
long distances with generators is the way that they've delivered the first
several units.

The situation has decayed to the point that Albuquerque has considered trying
to terminate the contract. The first several units delivered have had
significant quality problems, and recently the city's inspector general
released a report suggesting that audits showing the buses comply with Buy
America regulations were falsified and they are potentially ineligible for
expected federal grants. Workers in the city transportation department have
voiced concerns about many of the components on the buses being apparently
manufactured in China and lacking US certification marks and, in some cases,
English documentation. Delivery on the remaining buses in the order continues
to move farther back.

The City went into the project understanding that the 60-foot buses were a new
product for BYD, and even expects federal funding from a grant program for
employing new technologies. But at this point BYD is a significant part of the
near complete failure of a major project built around their product. It seems
worth mentioning that their customers are not all happy.

To ART's credit, the city IG reports that massive pressure for the city forced
BYD to begin delivering units earlier than they otherwise would have (but
still significantly behind schedule).

[https://www.abqjournal.com/1116887/mayor-outlines-major-
prob...](https://www.abqjournal.com/1116887/mayor-outlines-major-problems-
with-art-including-inability-to-charge-buses.html)
[https://www.abqjournal.com/1182473/report-criticizes-art-
pro...](https://www.abqjournal.com/1182473/report-criticizes-art-project.html)
[https://www.abqjournal.com/1182905/report-company-sent-
fault...](https://www.abqjournal.com/1182905/report-company-sent-faulty-art-
bus-due-to-city-pressure.html)

Part of the grant program the city is using to fund the project is that the
city will send one or two units to an FTA facility for inspection and testing.
That testing is expected to result in the FTA certifying the model for future
non-experimental federal grant programs, but most people involved in the ART
project now have significant doubts about whether or not BYD will be able to
deliver units that pass this process.

------
mattlondon
Fascinating.

In London we've had a few BYD busses in London since late 2016 now:
[https://tfl.gov.uk/info-for/media/press-
releases/2016/septem...](https://tfl.gov.uk/info-for/media/press-
releases/2016/september/mayor-unveils-first-fully-electric-bus-routes-for-
central-lond)

This appears to be the bus they use:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BYD_K9](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BYD_K9)

I'd love to know how they are holding up (I have to assume that the limited
deployment is effectively a trial by Transport for London to see how well they
work) if anyone knows of any updates on those?

Based on the statistics for London buses (about 490 million KM driven a year
by 9616 buses = about 51,000KM a year, or about 32,000 miles a year source:
[https://tfl.gov.uk/corporate/publications-and-
reports/buses-...](https://tfl.gov.uk/corporate/publications-and-
reports/buses-performance-data) for distance and
[https://data.london.gov.uk/dataset/number-buses-type-bus-
lon...](https://data.london.gov.uk/dataset/number-buses-type-bus-
london?resource=12ab947a-6d02-4792-93d1-dac9da2cc7d2) for number of buses) it
would seem that the average daily distance for a bus would likely be somewhere
in the 80-120 miles a day range depending on how many days a year a bus is
driven (that range is for 365 days to 250 days a year). At 80-125 miles a day,
that seems like it is screaming out for electrification _right now_. It would
seem that it is totally within the reach of current technology. The BYD K9 has
an advertised range of 155 miles.

The sooner diesel buses (and trucks) leave urban areas like London the better.
The rancid stench and taste of diesel fumes that hit you is disgusting, not to
mention that some diesel vehicles are outrageously loud too. Diesel is
literally killing us.

~~~
tim333
There was an article on the BYD London busses 4 months ago
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17400067](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17400067)

They seem to be holding up ok. They are only used on some unusually short
routes.

I'm with you on the sooner the bussed go electric the better. Shenzhen has
done all 16,359 of its busses so it's possible. They seem to be BYDs too.
[https://www.vox.com/energy-and-
environment/2018/4/17/1723936...](https://www.vox.com/energy-and-
environment/2018/4/17/17239368/china-investment-solar-electric-buses-cost)

~~~
mattlondon
Awesome thanks - article here:
[https://www.ianvisits.co.uk/blog/2018/06/26/do-londoners-
dre...](https://www.ianvisits.co.uk/blog/2018/06/26/do-londoners-dream-of-
electric-buses/)

------
dzhiurgis
I find it weird that SV companies like Google et al. that offer bus shuttle
from office doesn't use e-buses.

Personally e-bus is matter of comfort and reduced noice for me and people
around.

~~~
siculars
How long before some valley city council mandates public transport and outlaws
private company transport like the Google bus. Because, you know, for the
greater good!

~~~
epistasis
The conservatives (meaning disliking change) on these city councils also tend
to dislike public transit; they want to live like they imagined it in the
1970s with everybody driving their personal car on uncrossed freeways long
distances between their homes, work, and commercial districts.

Even their desire to stick it to the techies will not overcome their love of
car-first, or sometimes car-only, policies.

------
John_KZ
Diesel's days depend purely on politics.

I was shocked to see public opinion change overnight on this issue because
some German auto manufacturer cheated on their tests. This should motivate
people to fight corruption, not fuels.

Properly maintained EURO4+ vehicles are just fine. Yes, they product some more
particulates and NOx, but if you look up the specifics in absolute values, the
difference is essentially trivial.

Replacing diesel with gasoline in commercial vehicles will increase
transportation prices at least 30-40%, my guess would be much higher. It
simply won't happen. Commercial electric vehicles are a dream (or a financial
nightmare, depending on your perspective) at this point.

Are diesel's days limited in light personal transport vehicles? Maybe,
depending on politics. Are trucks, buses etc going electric anytime soon? Not
really.

For public transport, most people and most city councils will choose to
improve their services (like more routes, more buses per line etc) and not to
shrink just to use the latest bus-sized gadget.

~~~
Arbalest
You've highlighted an important point: The long tail of old technology. If I
recall, for some city in Europe, it was businesses running old vehicles that
were crying out for exceptions on the rules to ban the older diesel vehicles.
The vehicles which are driving basically all day. Not great policy if they are
granting all those exceptions.

------
stephengillie
Compression ignition is being used in gasoline by Mazda. Their Skyactiv-X
technology uses the spark to control when the compression ignites (like fake-
dieseling), and Skyactiv-X uses "dieseling" without spark to run the engine at
low loads.

[https://youtu.be/9KhzMGbQXmY?t=4m50s](https://youtu.be/9KhzMGbQXmY?t=4m50s)

~~~
legohead
I just got a new Mazda with a Skyactiv engine. I am really happy with the
performance, but wanted to see about adding a turbo. Seems like it's not a
good idea to add a turbo to an engine with 13:1 compression. The engine can
actually run at 14:1, but they lowered it for the US.

Anyway, Infiniti has a new engine that is variable-compression, so they can
run at 14:1 OR 8:1, and they add on a turbo to use at the lower compression.
Pretty freaking sweet: [https://www.infinitiusa.com/about/technology/vc-turbo-
engine...](https://www.infinitiusa.com/about/technology/vc-turbo-engine.html)

------
Animats
Gillig, in Fremont, also makes electric buses in the US. Cummins (formerly
Cummins Diesel), from Columbus, OH, makes the electric powertrain. Cummins
owns a battery company in the UK.

It's nice that BYD is using lithium iron phosphate batteries. Much safer than
ordinary lithium-iron batteries. You really don't want a bus-sized battery
fire.

~~~
TomMarius
The bus batteries aren't usually as huge as you'd expect them, I've seen buses
with just double the size of a Tesla S battery. It's because they just
recharge often, they don't need long range, a single circle is usually 30km
max.

~~~
DubiousPusher
And I assume they can charge faster with specialized super-duper charging
equipment.

~~~
sbierwagen
Faster you charge a battery, the shorter its lifetime.
[https://www.mpoweruk.com/life.htm](https://www.mpoweruk.com/life.htm)

~~~
TomMarius
But you can swap batteries and thus charge the bus almost instantly.

------
sandworm101
Article misses big point: This is not about electric buses. Electric buses
have been a thing in many cities for decades. Vancouver BC has run electric
buses since at least the early 90s when I rode them to school. This is about
_battery-powered_ buses. Running on electricity and running on internal
batteries are two very different things.

Edit: Vancouver has been running electric buses since 1948.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trolley_buses_in_Vancouver](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trolley_buses_in_Vancouver)

And these are not cable cars running tiny tourist routes in a downtown core.
These buses cover the suburbs.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trolley_buses_in_Vancouver#/me...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trolley_buses_in_Vancouver#/media/File:Vancouver_trolley_bus_-
_New_Flyer_E60LFR.jpg)

~~~
HillaryBriss
I thought the same thing. Thanks for making that point. San Francisco and
Seattle have run significant numbers of electric buses for a long time, too.

------
bluetomcat
What is more efficient than a diesel engine for long-distance economy
cruising? A big European family car like a Mercedes E220 CDI estate can cover
more than 1000 kilometres on a single tank of fuel at highway speed, all while
carrying 5 passengers and their luggage.

~~~
IB885588
Electric is more efficient/cleaner than that. You might not get the same
range, but realistically, few people drive that far without stopping
(biological needs, taking a break, etc), so that provides time for fast-
charging.

~~~
EADGBE
Biological needs and taking a break don't necessitate 20-30 minutes every 300
miles, though.

I think this is the only advantage combustion engines still have. It seems to
be a big one. To refill a tank takes less than 10 minutes, with the range
stated by parent.

~~~
dsfyu404ed
I'd like to add that when you aren't rich enough to own a specialized vehicle
for every task you have to cater more toward the edge cases, for most people
that interior size and/or higher passenger/cargo capacity than they need on a
daily basis. Likewise nobody's gonna make their only car something with a
250mi range and a mandatory 45min break if you're going farther than that
because it makes a 150mi round trip something you have to actively plan for
(because starting on 50% will be a pain in the butt vs a 10min delay with a
liquid fueled vehicle).

~~~
Arbalest
That's when car hire companies come into the mix. If you're not commuting
those distances regularly, chances are you've planned the long distance in
advance.

~~~
volkl48
Even if you have planned it in advance, car rentals get expensive quickly,
especially if you want something more than a passenger car.

SUV/Pickup rentals are often >$500/week, AND the agreement will claim that I'm
not supposed to take it off road, so if I'd like to go out to some hiking
trailhead along the way, I'm totally uninsured if anything happens on that
dirt road.

Adding $1000 to the cost of one of my yearly vacations adds up to a lot of
money over the life of a car.

\--------

On that same note, long trips are quite common for many Americans who don't
commute those distances. My daily commute is 4 miles each way, I could bike it
if the road had better infrastructure for it.

On at least 2 weekends a month, I'm driving 200+ mi each way, and my
destinations typically do not have charging infrastructure (or paved parking
lots). I know lots of people who do the same for their various outdoor
hobbies.

~~~
Arbalest
I suppose I forgot how spread out the US is. Europe is just as spread out, but
they have a decent train network. I'm from Australia, and our cities are a lot
more centralised, that everything is either within 100km, or greater than
about 500km. Well, except for a couple of cities on the east coast, most
notably Sydney to Newcastle. Where I am though, there's basically not major
centres in that mid region.

------
Dowwie
I've lived in the New York City metropolitan area, New Jersey, for most of my
life. Buses play a major role here for public transportation. There are bus
routes to NYC from all over New Jersey, of public and private chartered
variety. One of the major benefits of these buses is that they offer
affordable transportation, subsidized by taxes. Replacing these buses with
electric ones in an economically viable way is what will keep electric fleet
off the roads for a long time yet. While I wish that every diesel bus on the
road would be replaced immediately by an electric one, I see this taking at
least another 20 years.

------
acd
Lithium Iron batteries makes sense. The cobalt used in anode of common Lithium
Ion batteries, 60% of the worlds cobolt is mined in Congo. Cobolt is conflict
mineral
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cobalt](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cobalt)

It makes sense to use Lithium Iron batteries in a bus because these batteries
can take more recharge cycles 2000-8000 instead of the normal 500 recharge
cycles of Lithium Cobolt.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium_iron_phosphate_battery](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium_iron_phosphate_battery)

------
cascom
The adoption of electric busses over CNG doesn’t make a whole lot sense to me?
In a perfect world going electric would be great - but it seems like CNG
offers the right balance of lower fuel cost and cleaner emissions while
maintaining fleet efficiency (no long charge times).

Would love to hear why electric buses actually have the lead over CNG if you
take out the pure “feel good” factor of electric

------
zerr
No. There are emerging/developping markets. I'm pretty sure all those
prohibited diesel vehicles will be exported there, unfortunately.

------
jonahhorowitz
The thing we really need is inductive charging for the busses at each stop,
and at each stoplight. Then you don't need to carry the heavy batteries
around.

[https://bigthink.com/design-for-good/wireless-charging-
road-...](https://bigthink.com/design-for-good/wireless-charging-road-for-
electric-busses-will-be-built-in-israel)

~~~
alkonaut
For high traffic routes you could electrify the road and need even less
batteries.
[https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/apr/12/worlds-f...](https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/apr/12/worlds-
first-electrified-road-for-charging-vehicles-opens-in-sweden)

~~~
romwell
It looks like you are inventing a trolley bus [1]

[1][https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trolleybus](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trolleybus)

~~~
alkonaut
Yes exactly. But the overhead power lines are the big drawback

~~~
romwell
What's wrong with overhead power lines?

~~~
alkonaut
Esthetic issues mostly.

------
dghughes
Years ago I bought a diesel because it was more efficient (and more expensive)
than gasoline and emitted less nitrogen oxide. Now diesel vehicles are seen as
worse than gas engine vehicles. But switching isn't a problem the people who
were early diesel adopters did it for a reason; efficiency so really electric
vehicles are the new diesel.

------
SuspiciousSwan
I don't have a lot of faith in BYD busses actually working correctly. Proterra
seems like the most solid design around, and looking on LinkedIn, it seems
like they picked up a lot of people who worked at Tesla when things were going
better over there.

~~~
aunty_helen
Care to expand on why? It seems they are working correctly as they make over
500,000 vehicles a year whilst Proterra are claiming 375 since inception. [1]

[0][https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BYD_Auto#Sales](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BYD_Auto#Sales)
>BYD Auto sold a total of 506,189 passenger cars in China in 2013

[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proterra,_Inc](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proterra,_Inc).
>the company has sold more than 375 buses

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seanalltogether
They don't mention it in the article but do these big buses use regenerative
braking? Seems like a no-brainer to add on considering all the starts and
stops a bus does, but maybe it's not worth the extra cost for fixed route
operation?

~~~
CaliforniaKarl
I believe they do use regenerative braking, yes. I say that because I ride BYD
busses on a regular basis, and (especially on older models, which are not as
smooth) you can feel (what I think is) the jerk of regenerative braking
kicking on.

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digi_owl
One thing to consider is that technically a diesel engine can run not just on
petroleum based fuels.

Thus i think the engine itself is likely to be with us for a long time, but
perhaps not used primarily in the ways we do today.

------
ucaetano
Betteridge's law of headlines applies.

~~~
khawkins
Indeed. BYD's electric vehicle production is heavily supported by Chinese
subsidies and cuts in these subsidies have had a big impact on profits. Its
stock has been steadily declining since the announcement earlier this year.

[https://www.reuters.com/article/us-byd-results/chinas-byd-
wa...](https://www.reuters.com/article/us-byd-results/chinas-byd-warns-profit-
to-plunge-on-electric-car-subsidy-cuts-shares-tumble-idUSKBN1H31PP)

~~~
Symbiote
Other companies also make them, for example Volvo in Europe.

~~~
sumedh
Volvo is Chinese as well.

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zelon88
I hate seeing this conversation about diesel when we should be having this
discussion about gasoline.

Gasoline engines have lesser thermal efficiency and lesser torque potential
than diesel engines. If you're going to get rid of one or the other, get rid
of gasoline vehicles.

Diesel engines have a longer stroke, cooler combustion, more flexibility with
air/fuel ratios, extreme wear tolerance, lower rotational speeds, and cost the
same with similar complexity to gasoline engines. They are also more
economical in practice because their extra low-end torque gives them
(arguably) a drivability advantage which lends itself to increased MPG.

They are superior to gasoline engines in every way. And because they can run
with air/fuel ratios anywhere from 10:1 all the way to 60:1 they can easily
run a mutitude of different fuel's with only minor software adjustments.

So please, stop shitting on diesel. It's ignorant to the fact that you
probably drive a gasoline powered car that does more damage to the environment
per gallon of fuel burned than a diesel bus.

~~~
jeffwass
Please cut this diesel apologist Bullshit! Your defense of diesel entirely
ignores exhaust and emissions.

Sorry to be rude but this is a very personal and emotional topic to me and
you’ve really pissed me off by saying “They are superior to gasoline engines
in every way.” You apparently aren’t living in a city where the poor-sighted
decision was made to promote Diesel engines over gasoline for marginally
better CO2 metrics, and now get to breathe air that exceeds annual EU
pollution limits in mere days.

Diesel is terrible in urban settings. It’s dirty as hell. I have no idea where
you live but Diesel engines are entirely on their own choking the streets of
London with their particulates and NoX exhaust. Gasoline engines are much
cleaner by comparison.

I’ve gotten bronchitis several times in the past few years. I’ve finally
tracked it down to the nox fumes, primarily from buses and heavy trucks where
it’s a very noticeable sharp smell. I’ve gotten a bit better by avoiding high
streets whenever possible, and I’m also proactively going up to drivers in
idling diesel cars and asking them to cut the engine. It’s been estimated that
10k people are dying a year in London alone from effects of the exhaust!!

~~~
zelon88
Diesel particulates (aka: soot) comes from unburned fuel during the combustion
process due to insufficient heat in the combustion chamber. This can be
reduced with software that eases into the throttle instead of literally
translating the input from the gas pedal into throttle input. Applying the
throttle slower results in more complete fuel burn. Here in the USA when you
crank up your injectors to create the black cloud of smoke it's called
"rolling coal." It's how you get more power out of a diesel engine without
changing anything else. Just pour in more fuel. Because they don't have
butterfly valves in the intake or throttle plates, diesel engines usually
operate at or in excess of 100% volumetric efficiency. So while a 2.0L gas
engine will consume 900cc of air at partial throttle, a diesel engine WILL
ALMOST ALWAYS consume approximately it's displacement worth of air on an
intake stroke. So a 2.0L diesel, even at part throttle, is consuming around
2.0L (or more) of air per intake stroke.

So to limit particulates, add a throttle limiter that limits throttle changes
to a certain speed where the temperature of combustion increases proportionate
to the fuel being injected.

You can also reduce soot output by filtering the fuel. You can refine diesel
until you're blue in the face, but the fact of the matter is you get to a
point where the cost of refining it isn't worth the benefit coming out of the
tail pipe.

Not to mention the soot falls back to Earth and doesn't stay in the atmosphere
as long as you think it does. So much of that black cloud is getting washed
into your sewers when it rains.

You've found a bug in your code and you want to throw it all out and start
over?

~~~
jeffwass
This doesn’t even touch on NOx emissions, which are way worse (at least for
me).

Though you appear to have some vested interest in the proliferation of Diesel
engines.

~~~
zelon88
My vested interest comes as a result of enjoying vehicles. I am as much a
gearhead as I am a hacker, and seeing something so efficient, so powerful, and
so useful that LITERALLY built the industrialized world by powering 18 wheeled
trucks and trains and container ships get crapped on by people who don't even
know what the difference between their Corolla and a diesel engine actually
are.

I owned a 1990 CTD Dodge W350 truck and that thing would do a brakestand from
a 3rd gear clutch drop AT IDLE... with 300k miles on the clock. Find me a V8
gasser that can do that and pull a trailer through the Kangamangus at 20+mpg.

