
Superstitious users and the FreeBSD logo - charliesome
http://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-chat/2011-November/006642.html
======
peteforde
Penn Jillette is correct: nobody has the "right to not be offended".

I think that it's deeply unfair to compare the BSD daemon logo to a swastika,
unless you believe that open source is communism that robs pro-America
operating systems like Windows.

The woman at the hotel speaks of abuse from seeing this symbol, but who
apologizes for my abuse at the hands of the deeply irrational? It's not my
fault that so many people choose to take their spiritual beliefs so far past
zealotry that something so inconsequential as a logo would upset them, and yet
it's somehow my problem because I'm apparently supposed to be constantly on
the lookout for opportunities to not offend people who believe in bullshit.

These people would never extend me the same courtesy if I asked them to remove
their Christian jewellery. I'd be laughed off if I phoned the front desk of a
hotel freaking out that someone put a Gideon bible in my drawer.

I live in a relatively sane place and I consciously avoid going to places
where it's socially acceptable to burden rationale behaviour with uncontested
religious observance. They can believe what they believe and I'll continue to
sleep through Sunday mornings. But the apologists who are smart enough to know
better? Those folks should know better than to fall into such an obvious
slippery slope.

TL;DR: I'm an atheist and I want a refund because someone put a Christian
bible in my hotel room. Why are you laughing?

~~~
whalesalad
"I'm an atheist and I want a refund because someone put a Christian bible in
my hotel room. Why are you laughing?"

Zing. Very good example.

~~~
peteretep
Terrible example because no-one actually gives a shit, where it's pretty clear
some people - with money to spend - do give a shit about the devil.

~~~
darklajid
The devil's in the detail, though..

and (as others stated all over these threads) no christian text says that the
devil is a tiny red (arguably) cute comic figure. Even if you're a die-hard
believer, it's about as hard to argue that this mascot is representing the
devil as it is to argue that Harry Potter is about evil witchcraft or AD&D is
about dark rituals and serving strange gods.

~~~
YmMot
To be fair Harry Potter _is_ about evil witchcraft, it just doesn't promote
it...or rather It's about the power of friendship (and good witchcraft)
defeating evil witchcraft.

------
marshray
I think I'm on the side of the general non-sysadmin population here.

I used to get the BSD magazine, and I got a puzzled look or two from the
neighbors. I just said "oh that, it's a computer thing". No big deal.

But how would you feel if you ran into your neighbor at the mailboxes and they
were getting magazines with swastikas on them? How about if you went to use
the hotel network and the sign-in page said "Powered By" and a picture of a
guy in a white hood standing under a burning cross? You might feel a little
weird about it too.

There is a language of symbolism and iconography that exists in Western
cultures. This image of a demon/devil/satan _has_ a relatively coherent
meaning. It developed this meaning long, long before some guys in a computer
lab chose to use it to represent something completely unrelated, as some kind
of visual pun. It's as if they were intentionally trying to be confusing.

So cut it out with all the snickering about "look at all the dumb
superstitious people who can't wrap their heads around a daemon process".

This is the kind of antisocial behavior that gives nerds an image problem.

~~~
darklajid
I was surprised that you invoked Godwin's Law on a first level post.

Coming from a country that sometimes gets a bad reputation for limiting free
speech: I know at least one country part of the 'western culture' where
swastikas are (generalizing) illegal. Please list a country where tiny horned
figures are illegal.

I don't know about the 'white hood w/ burning cross' reference (I assume
KKK?), but I guess those aren't a good example either.

Are you seriously comparing

a) a regime that killed millions of people and started the 2nd world war

b) a far-right, violent, terrorist (acc. to Wikipedia, depending on local
legislation?) organization

with

c) a comic style image that might be connected by viewers with a fictional
character representing (guessing here, didn't read the novel) all evil?

Everyone is free to have their own belief. But you sure overstate the problem
here..

~~~
marshray
_I don't know about the 'white hood w/ burning cross' reference (I assume
KKK?),_

Yes, in the US South that is an unambiguous symbol of the KKK and racist
violence. It's even recent enough to be in living memory for older people.

 _Are you seriously comparing a) a regime that killed millions of people and
started the 2nd world war_

No, I'm not comparing the acts of one party (the actual Nazis) with the acts
of another party (programmers at Berkely) or with a mythological motif.

I'm saying that the programmers at Berkley chose a symbol which already had a
specific meaning and was thus guaranteed to be confusing.

Nerds have a negative stereotype of being passive aggressive, pointlessly
confusing, making inside jokes at others' expense, and generally making others
look stupid.

------
oz
I'm a former fundamentalist Christian who wrestled long and hard over this
exact issue a few years ago. Allow me to elaborate:

There is a sizeable group of Christians who practice what is known as
'spiritual warfare.' Basically, this worldview sees the work of Satan in
_everything_. Marital problems? "Satan, I bind you in the name of Jesus
Christ." Financial woes? "Satan, I bind you in the name of Jesus Christ."
Problems at work? "Satan, I bind you in the name of Jesus Christ." 'Binding'
the devil apparently dispatches angels who 'subdue' the demons responsible for
your problem. Just watch TBN for an hour and you'll see what I'm talking
about. For the first few months of my conversion, this is the subculture I was
in.

I remember one day visiting the FreeBSD website (this is after refusing to use
a computer for 1 month because the Internet was _obviously_ a part of Satan's
diabolic ploy to entrap mankind), and closing the tab when I saw Beastie. You
see, in that culture, there is a meme that certain objects 'attract' demons.
Listening to certain songs invites demonic infestation. Watching horror movies
practically guarantees it.

I vowed then that I would never use FreeBSD. Even though benchmarks showed
superior stability and SMP performance than Linux, I couldn't knowingly invite
demons into my life like that! By Beastie...Tux, here I come.

Thankfully, I deconverted a few months later. But I understand where she is
coming from. If she was one the 'warfare' crowd, she'd probably have spent the
entire night in fervent prayer, battling the 'forces of darkness.' My mom, for
example, would NOT have stayed in that hotel. Wouldn't happen.

Oh man, do I have stories to tell!

For tidbits on my experiences on HN:

<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1062267>
<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=611122>
<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2202900>

~~~
marshray
Thanks for that story.

It's probably important to point out that the majority of religious people are
not in quite as deep as you were. But they might still be a little bothered by
it.

~~~
tptacek
Are you really intending to imply that the majority of religious people would
support eliminating the BSD daemon logo? Because that's obviously not true.

There are ~300MM in the US. If just 0.1% of them are nutty enough to pitch a
fit over a cartoon character, that's still three hundred thousand nuts we have
to deal with.

Meanwhile, the _majority_ of US adults self-report as Christian. Most of these
people are not nuts about depictions of demons, as evidenced by the fact that
they aren't protesting DePaul (the largest Catholic university in the country)
for naming their sports team "The Blue Demons".

~~~
marshray
No, I said "be a little bothered by it" not "support eliminating it" or "get
nutty and pitch a fit over it".

For some reason I can't really explain, sports teams seem to make an
occasional exception.

~~~
tptacek
I know you're a reasonable guy. I'm just trying not to have us lump hundreds
of millions of Americans into the same bucket as the crazy person who can't
stay in the hotel with the BSD daemon logo on it. It's an easy trap to fall
into, especially in a place like HN, which suffers grievously from the base
rate fallacy on this particular topic.

------
robinhouston
There is an insightful comment from Tom Limoncelli later in the thread:

“This is yet another reason why it was brilliant for Linux to have a Penguin
as their logo. Up until then all Unix imagery was counter-productive to wide
adoption: It was mostly wizards (a reminder that Unix is difficult to use and
only understood by few) or devils (which is just plain confusing to the 99.99%
of the planet that hasn't taken Operating Systems 101 in college).

This is not a new thing. This story is probably older than a lot of people on
this mailing list: <http://monster-island.org/tinashumor/humor/daemon.html>

(and I heard Laura tell the story once in person)

Tom”

~~~
umarmung
That link is worth the giggle. Thanks :)

America makes all other rich nation's provincials look like Einsteins!

------
jrockway
Everything will offend someone. This person probably had a bad day and would
have complained about something else (and threatened not to stay) if the BSD
logo hadn't distracted her first.

Self-censorship to appease the tiny number of people that are crazy is the
worst form of censorship. There is no appeals process and you can't measure
whether or not your censorship is effective. All you're left with is a world
that consists only of fear, uncertainty, and doubt. I don't want to live in
that world.

Don't change your personality because one person might not like you. Is it
worth making the world a worse place just to get a measly thousand bucks?

~~~
sliverstorm
_Is it worth making the world a worse place just to get a measly thousand
bucks?_

Removing the "Powered By" makes the world a worse place?

I am inclined to agree with one of the later emails in the thread; "Powered By
<blank>" doesn't really belong on end-user pages in the first place.

~~~
jrockway
I think the person who originally designed the page was proud that he was
using FreeBSD and he decided that he wanted to share this information with the
world. Doing so would make him happy; perhaps he imagined that a FreeBSD user
would one day see the logo and enjoy his life a little bit more because he
connected, although indirectly, with another in his tribe.

Little decisions like this are what make you human. Don't let your fears and
inhibitions turn you into a robot because some interview with Steve Jobs said
not to put "powered by..." logos on stuff. Do what feels right in your heart.
Enjoy life first and figure out how to make money without compromising your
_humanity_.

~~~
ionfish
> Don't let your fears and inhibitions turn you into a robot because some
> interview with Steve Jobs said not to put "powered by..." logos on stuff.

Steve Jobs appeared happy enough to have "Designed by Apple in California"
inscribed on all Apple's products.

~~~
vacri
Steve Jobs had a separate set of rules that applied to Steve Jobs. Like free-
for-all parking at work, everyone's equal... unless you're Steve Jobs, then
you get a reserved spot.

------
tripzilch
I thought this comment was rather insightful:

[http://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-
chat/2011-Novembe...](http://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-
chat/2011-November/006652.html)

    
    
        As a former fundie myself (brief stint, I assure you!), I do
        have some sympathy for your hotel guests. Decades ago, in my
        teens, before I was fortunate enough to snap out of it, such
        a situation would have produced an *extreme* amount of
        anxiety. 
    
        I can only feel sorry for anyone who has lived their whole
        life that way. 
    
        There aren't many ways to help them, everything you say or
        do is processed via an elaborate shell script that basically
        amounts to this:
    
           sed -e 's/outside help/trick of the devel/'
    
        Poor people, really. If they weren't so dangerous &
        annoying, we ought to have sympathy for them. It really was
        a high-stress lifesytle. I'm thankful to have snapped out of
        it early on, lots of others aren't so lucky. It really is
        like a trap.
    

Especially the bit about "high-stress lifestyle". Because really, it's not
just about being simply offended by imagery that is perceived as antagonistic
to their religion, it's about getting _completely worked up_ over a _cartoon_
image of a devil, and truly believing that whoever put that there must be
corrupted by Dark Forces.

It's kind of hard to come up with a non-Christian equivalent, maybe something
like travelling to Asia, visiting a Hindu temple, and completely freaking out
about the swastikas, because obviously this means that all Hindus are in fact
Nazis. Or even more direct, refusing to book a hotel owned by Hindus that
prominently display some swastika emblem behind the counter (as a good
luck/prosperity charm).

Now imagine living with this delusion, you actually believe this, everybody
trying to convince you otherwise is either sadly misguided, corrupted, or "one
of them" and these swastikas are quite prevalent in Asia. You'd be living in
_a constant state of fear of Imaginary Nazis!_

It's one of those things that is both funny and sad and amazing and pitiful,
all at the same time.

Maybe another comparison, I know a couple of people that can completely freak
out from simply seeing a picture of a spider, as much that if it's large and
unexpected enough they will actually jump out of their chair and panic. A big
difference is of course that these people are aware that their fear is
irrational--that a picture cannot hurt them (well, apart from any physical
reactions they bring about their own, of course).

------
forbes
Sounds like a business opportunity. The customer might be willing to pay more
for Wi-Fi that is not powered by Satan, and more again if it was powered by
God. I'd choose Wi-Fi that is 'Powered by Science!' - the best Wi-Fi of them
all.

~~~
alexmat
All Wi-Fi is powered by science. I'll pay you a million bucks if you can show
me a Wi-Fi router powered by Jesus.

~~~
scarlson
There's a chasm of difference between a router that's powered by Jesus and one
that claims to be powered by Jesus.

Customer's only need to believe it's so, much like the case presented in the
internet being powered by the devil.

Anyways, off to brand "Holy Routers" with an image of Buddy Christ as our
logo. "Why bother with other routers, ours have the divine connection."

~~~
donw
That may explain the shockingly spotty wireless in my hotel; I don't want a
divine connection, I want sinful ping times.

------
scommab
the FreeBSD devil is so cutesy I find it hard to believe someone would be that
offended. And it's not like "the devil" is some sort of huge taboo in the US,
it is often used in relatively benign product's names.

Some example "demonic" products off the top of my head

\- New Jersey Devils (NHL team)

\- Dirt Devil (a vacuum)

\- Devil's food cake (a popular dessert)

~~~
peteretep
I think some fundies would have a problem with it specifically because it's
cutesy - I remember reading people being anti Harry Potter because it
trivialized what they saw as black, satanic magic

~~~
adbge
To be fair, though, they would have an even bigger problem with it if it
wasn't cutesy. They have a problem with it because they believe it's satanic,
not because it's cutesy.

Take your Harry Potter example. The people who are anti-Harry Potter aren't
really against it because it trivializes black magic. That's just a
rationalization. These people certainly don't support something like the works
of Aleister Crowley, even though they're much more serious about their
treatment of the occult. They're against it because it contains -- in their
view -- black, satanic magic.

~~~
marshray
I think the fact that it's packaged as childrens' literature has a lot to do
with it too.

------
anonymous
I refuse to stay in the same hotel as women who do not have their hair
covered!

You are not responsible for their outrage.

'First they came for the hotspots with devil logos on them, and I did not
speak up, for I am not a devil logo.'

------
njharman
One of the most important business lessons.

"Some customers aren't worth having."

~~~
sliverstorm
Yes, but in this case the hotel is the customer, and the hotel is doing
nothing wrong in asking about the issue.

~~~
vog
Indeed, if the hotels care about those customers, they should probably simply
adjust the starting page, which might be a good idea anyway (e.g., putting the
hotel logo on the page).

It might be more sensible to ask for simpler customization facilities than to
ask a project to change or hide their logo for everyone.

------
tptacek
Tempest in a teacup. The mascot of one of the largest Catholic universities in
the world, DePaul, is a blue demon. Unlike FreeBSD, the Catholic school teams
are actually _called_ The Blue Demons.

There's nothing you can do about stupid people. They're always going to find
something to object to.

------
emilis_info
So much bullshit in this thread...

First of all the logo:
[http://www.google.com/search?q=devil&tbm=isch](http://www.google.com/search?q=devil&tbm=isch)
Clearly an image of the devil. The pitchfork strengthens this meaning:
<http://www.symbols.com/old/encyclopedia/05/051.html>

What is the devil?: <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Devil>

So, the thing in FreeBSD logo is clearly considered to represent personalized
evil by a lot of people. Denying the significance of this meaning is stupid
and counter-productive.

Some of people take the issue of opposing evil very seriously and personally.
As we all should (according to our understanding) -- whether it is poverty,
poisoning of air and water, unethical business practices, corrupt officials,
etc.

Now I believe the main cause that this story made the news is the 1000$
(potential?) loss for the hotel and some other demands from the customer.
Other than that I doubt it would be considered important by the many people
posting here.

The customer is called "superstitious". It is also noted that the customer and
the complaining hotel owner are both women, while the ISP owner and his tech
support person are both male. So we see the cliché of superstitious and
irrational women against calm and rational men.

So yeah... ignoring the obvious, looking down on people based on their
religious beliefs and sex, ignoring them unless the issue involves money...

Get over it. If you want more people to like FreeBSD -- change the logo. If
you won't -- don't complain.

~~~
marshray
Some people are on a crusade to rid the world of the devil.

Some people are on a crusade to rid the world of censorship.

Some people are on a crusade to rid the world of closed-source software.

/me makes popcorn.

~~~
emilis_info
As much as USofA political and religious fundamentalism (on all sides) amuses
and entertains me, a couple of things make me take it seriously:

1\. USA has a very strong political power and exports its culture.

2\. I am old enough to have witnessed the effects of state atheism personally
and directly in my country. Atheism can be as stupid and evil as any other
religion.

P.S. I come from Eastern Europe.

------
Tobu
Someone finally provided a 0% demonic, fundie-friendly logo:

<http://box.jisko.net/i/de9679fd.png>

------
signa11
<http://rmitz.org/freebsd.daemon.html>

------
jsilence
I am absolutely flabberghasted that we ("we" as in "we the society") actually
have to discuss topics like this.

Seriously? The world does not have any other problems?

~~~
swah
Its an opportunity for bashing on religious people, and those are always
welcome in here.

~~~
mrcharles
No, it is an opportunity to highlight that there are people in this world who
are unreasonably irrational, and who feel they should have a right to force
their (borderline crazy) views on others.

~~~
swah
But if Science tells me to stop eating eggs, its ok, even if 10 years later it
will tell me to start eating eggs again... What is the difference?

~~~
Dylan16807
Nobody tries to force something like that on you, they simply point out
(un)healthy aspects and leave you to you own decisions.

------
geoka9
Here's a similar (and funny) story: <http://rmitz.org/freebsd.daemon.html>

------
Tharkun
You'd better not tell these people about the satanic propaganda in firefox
then! (about:mozilla)

Some people deserve a firm spanking, nothing more.

~~~
marshray
I actually think it's quite rude of Mozilla to mock people's religious texts
like that. I certainly wouldn't do it.

~~~
AndyKelley
Whose religious text is this mocking? Text below:

Mammon slept. And the beast reborn spread over the earth and its numbers grew
legion. And they proclaimed the times and sacrificed crops unto the fire, with
the cunning of foxes. And they built a new world in their own image as
promised by the sacred words, and spoke of the beast with their children.
Mammon awoke, and lo! it was naught but a follower.

from The Book of Mozilla, 11:9 (10th Edition)

~~~
marshray
It's a parody of the Bible book of Revelation specifically.

~~~
AndyKelley
What makes you say that? Do you have specific verses to cite that reveal the
similarity?

~~~
marshray
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Book_of_Mozilla> "apparent quotations hidden
in Netscape and Mozilla give this impression by revealing passages in the
style of apocalyptic literature, such as the Book of Revelation in the Bible."

[http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation+13...](http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation+13&version=NIV)

Read the two and decide for yourself.

~~~
AndyKelley
"And thus the Creator looked upon the beast reborn and saw that it was good.

from The Book of Mozilla, 8:20"

OK I can see how that is similar to Genesis 1:31:

"God saw all that he had made, and it was very good."

------
ck2
The symbol of christianity is horribly offensive if you think about it (it
commemorates someone being tortured to death) but if you want to live in a
supposedly "free" society you best learn to not offend and not be easily
offended.

------
scythe
The abstract demon head at the top of the page?

~~~
bjg
Probably one of the "Powered By" logo's
<http://www.freebsd.org/art.html#POWERED-BY>

------
JohnnyBrown
I don't understand what he's asking for at then end:

| Is there artwork that doesn't include horned creatures that might offend the
ignorant or superstitious?

as in, I still want to offend her, but also want to change the logo?

~~~
saulrh
Misparse; you're reading "artwork that (doesn't include horned creatures)
[and] (that might offend)", but it's intended as "artwork that (doesn't
include (horned creatures that might offend))".

~~~
JohnnyBrown
thanks

------
georgieporgie
I get the whole daemon thing, but isn't the cartoon devil basically the
standard, modern Christian image of Satan, plus some cuteness?

Personally, I think the logo has outlived its usefulness. The cartoon devil
doesn't mean much to me, and vastly less to normal people, and the horned
sphere is just... weird.

------
nakkali_kuere
Swastika is a Hindu sign not Nazi.

~~~
tripzilch
Yeah no, it's both really.

------
m_for_monkey
Maybe choose one of these (NSFW!):

<http://freebsd-image-gallery.netcode.pl/?gallery=Daemonette>

