
Can we wean Elon Musk off government support already? - towndrunk
http://thehill.com/blogs/pundits-blog/economy-budget/345338-can-we-wean-elon-musk-off-government-support-already
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sp332
Ugh, what a bad-faith argument. The whole reason government puts subsidies on
things is to encourage those things. The article starts with the assumption
that market distortion is always has a bad outcome, but it's going to have to
back that up. It also assumes (at the end) that our representatives in
Congress can't possibly really be representing us.

The rebates and tax cuts are working as intended. For example, by paying
$7,500 for a certain class of electric vehicle, we tip the balance for people
considering buying a somewhat less expensive internal combustion car. Just by
tipping the scales, we shift a significant fraction of the demand from IC to
electric, which makes a huge difference in the market, and therefore capital
investment in manufacturing. Just doing this for a few years gets us decades
ahead of where we would be in terms of electric vehicle technology.

Corruption is always possible but it's not a given. For an old rebuttal,
Musk's "The House Always Wins" essay still applies.
[https://www.tesla.com/blog/house-always-
wins](https://www.tesla.com/blog/house-always-wins)

P.S. The tax credit already get phased out above 200,000 vehicles per
manufacturer, so it's not going to apply to all 500,000 pre-orders (even
assuming they all become sales).
[https://energy.gov/eere/electricvehicles/electric-
vehicles-t...](https://energy.gov/eere/electricvehicles/electric-vehicles-tax-
credits-and-other-incentives)

~~~
brightball
Probably a better counter point would be for somebody to provide some examples
where market distortion hasn't had a bad outcome.

~~~
knieveltech
How about some examples of "undistorted markets" resulting in unambiguously
good outcomes first?

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brianolson
This is a misleading partisan hit piece. The R party has decided they don't
like Musk and this is part of their noise war.

Some of the dollars are indeed shameful, but standard business practice that
we need to shut down _everywhere_. If SpaceX is getting 'subsidy' dollars I'm
sure it's not 1/4 as much as Boeing/Lockheed and the rest of the defense
contractor crowd get. If Tesla factories are getting tax breaks that's because
there's a nationwide race to the bottom with every local jurisdiction falling
over themselves to give away breaks in hope of luring just this sort of thing.
We need to stop that race to the bottom _everywhere_.

And solar subsidies I'm for. F' CO2 emitters.

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wnevets
Can we wean oil & farm companies off of government support first?

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fhood
Hey! I really like my cheap produce.

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wlesieutre
Cheap meat is more likely to take a hit if we cut farm subsidies; feed crops
are the biggest beneficiary (mostly corn).

The data on wikipedia[1] is from 2004, but I haven't heard of any major
reforms since then. From greatest to least, subsidies went to: corn, cotton,
wheat, rice, soybeans, dairy, peanuts, sugar, minor oilseeds, tobacco, wool
and mohair, vegetable oil products, and honey. Anything else is in the
remaining 2%.

[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agricultural_subsidy#United_St...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agricultural_subsidy#United_States)

EDIT: Note that sugar and onward are individually <2% (smaller than the
"anything else" bucket)

~~~
mcguire
Mohair?

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norswap
> As wide-ranging as these various entrepreneurial ventures may be, they all
> have one thing in common – not a single one of them would get funding in a
> competitive private capital market if it weren’t for massive (and I do mean
> massive) taxpayer-funded government subsidies.

Correct, but that's a problem of the current incentive structure in the market
(some would say it's a problem of capitalism... I wouldn't go that far). The
government isn't tied to those incentives, and so can (and should) use its
money to promote initiatives that have large expected payback in the long run.

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jeffreportmill1
Don't forget that the US military is a huge subsidy to the oil and gas
industry and conventional auto industry. I'm sure Tesla would gladly do away
with subsidies if Exxon/GM gave up theirs. In any case, I'll bet GM/Toyota
have received more electric car subsidies than Tesla. Ridiculous article.

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simplicio
I mean, Plan A to achieve the same goals with regards to electric cars and
solar without gov't subsidies was a cap-and-trade or carbon tax, but since the
articles author's group helped shoot that possibility down, we're left with
less market oriented, less elegant approaches, like direct gov't subsidies on
companies that develop the necessary tech.

I'd certainly be happy to go with the more free market oriented approaches,
but that doesn't seem likely to be possible in the US in the near future.

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jostmey
Elon Musk has earned every tax payer dollar he has received. From what I can
tell by reading the news, the man works himself and his companies insanely
hard. Perhaps this argument could be made about any other organizations or
institutions, but not Elon Musk and his companies

~~~
turc1656
" _Elon Musk has earned every tax payer dollar he has received._ "

By definition you do not earn a handout. You merely conform to the
requirements of receiving it, which he has. "Earn"? Definitely not the word to
use for him. We're talking about money that he has taken from all taxpayers to
fund the pursuit of his dreams. His dreams get funded because they are
approved by the government. There are ~156 million adults employed full time.
On average, this equates to ~$32 every single taxpayer has paid to Musk. If
you are a higher earner, which I suspect is true of many here on HN, Musk has
"earned" somewhere between $50 and $100 of your money.

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scottLobster
Keep in mind the source:

"Jenny Beth Martin (@JennyBethM) is president and co-founder of Tea Party
Patriots."

The Co-founder of the tea party patriots thinks any and all financial
government support is bad? I'm shocked I tell you.

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IshKebab
This site has an actual popup advert.

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TYPE_FASTER
What a crappy article. Including SpaceX contracts as a subsidy? Seriously?

~~~
turc1656
I am pretty sure they are _not_ including the contacts. They are only
including the subsidies. As far as contracts go, SpaceX landed deals totaling
more than 5.5 billion from the US Air Force and NASA alone.

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british_india
The author is another Republican looking to dump on anything that helps the
Environment.

Jump in a lake, Jenny Beth. I'm sure you're a-okay with subsidies to Petroleum
companies on the taxpayer's dime.

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british_india
The author is another scumbag Republican looking to shit on anything that
helps the environment. Fuck you, Jenny Beth. I'm sure you're fine with fossil
fuel exploration subsidies on the taxpayer's dime.

