
Everest through the eyes of a Sherpa - max23_
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-48464030
======
ahelwer
Summiting Everest, as a tourist, is basically unimpressive and a strong
indicator you're an empty box-checker. Any moderately fit person with $100k
lying around can get short-roped or crawl up the fixed lines to the top while
sucking down bottles of oxygen, endangering the lives of the people helping
them on their way.

If you meet someone who has climbed Everest, don't validate their ego.

~~~
derekdahmer
Did you read the article? The sherpa is saying the exact opposite of this.

> "Climbers need to wake up and understand that climbing a big peak like
> Everest is extremely risky. They need to stop believing just because they
> are with a 'Sherpa guide' who has summited Everest 10 times that they will
> be rescued if they get in trouble," says Alan.

~~~
ahelwer
Yes, I read the article, and am a mountaineer, and stand by what I said. It's
tricky to talk about difficulty with those not versed in the sport, because
with mountains like Everest (which are non-technical high-altitude walkups)
it's about objective risks like weather or avalanches or HAPE/CE rather than
subjective risks like lack of strength or fitness or coordination or whatever.

~~~
samschooler
I’d like to piggy back on this comment and ask you: what do you see as your
aspirational mountaineering accomplishment(s)? Or is that even the right way
to look at mountaineering? And what would you suggest to a beginner how to get
more into the sport safely?

I’m getting pretty into mountaineering (or at least setting myself up to be),
I rock climb outside about once a week now in Clear Creek, Colorado. I hike as
many 14ers as I can a summer. I also back country ski in the winter and am
getting my AIARE 1 this winter.

Currently I aspire to do the seven summits once I’m confident I’m prepared and
ready. So I’m wondering about the above because I’m starting to see this as a
flawed accomplishment.

~~~
ahelwer
It's certainly worth examining what you want out of the sport, because at some
point you'll get seriously injured, or have a near-death experience, or have a
friend die, and will have to justify your participation to yourself. I won't
go so far as to say that if a traumatic incident changes your approach to the
sport then you were living/climbing inauthentically (trauma has real mental
effects), but it shouldn't send you into too much of a crisis.

Mountaineering is a very personal sport and I don't want to gatekeep it saying
you're approaching it the wrong way. Having a list of peaks you want to climb
is fine, but I do roll my eyes a bit at the box-checkers. It's a fine line.

It sounds like you're taking a good approach into mountaineering (I'm really
not much of an authority here, honestly). Personally I went the route of
joining a local volunteer-run mountaineering club, but independent close-knit
groups of climbers are just as good (assuming you have similar attitudes
toward safety, risk, and technical education).

My personal goal with mountaineering is to be climbing well into my 70s, just
like some of the older people in my club. This requires avoiding routes with
higher objective risks, but there are more than enough mountains in the world
with which to fill one's heart.

~~~
samschooler
I definitely struggle with the idea of box checking, it is however one of the
easiest ways to show progress to myself. Which is why I think many people
start with it. I think I'm going to reevaluate how I show personal progress,
as well as always double check that safety is my number one priority vs summit
chasing. Even though you aren't an authority, this is great info, thanks for
this.

------
test1235
"It's pressure on young climbers by some companies describing Everest as easy.
Everest is never easy."

Not just companies - it's 'common knowledge' now that Everest is just a hike
with rich clients being dragged up by poorly paid sherpas.

------
RcouF1uZ4gsC
I remember hearing a talk by Ed Viesturs who was the first American to climb
all 14 eight-thousanders

He emphasized that his rule was that going up was optional, coming down wasn’t
and told a story of this one mountain climb where they spent weeks getting
ready to the point where they were ready to summit. I don’t remember the
details, but for some reason they were not able to get the start they wanted
and it would be close to being dark by the time they got back from the summit.
Instead of risking it, he aborted and came back the next year.

Sometimes knowing when to abort an endeavor is one of the most important
skills.

~~~
dopeboy
I dive (albeit new) and knowing when to abort is taught over and over again.
In general, from both theory and practice, the threshold is pretty low. Any
kind of physical and mental stress means you surface.

I guess what makes Everest so different are the costs involved. I imagine the
sunk cost fallacy is magnified.

~~~
maxxxxx
Yeah. With diving an abort is not a big deal. Just do it again tomorrow. With
Everest you have already put in a lot of effort and money and you may never
get the opportunity to do it again.

Also, when you do stupid things there is often a good chance to get away with
it. I have done things I shouldn’t have done but I have fond memories of
overcoming the hardship.

~~~
nradov
Aborting a shallow sport dive is no big deal. But some of my acquaintances go
on major expeditions doing deep, complex technical dives on shipwrecks and in
caves. Just getting to the dive site can be a major logistical undertaking,
and there's often a large group of surface crew and support divers just to
assist the push team. Sometimes permits to access a particular site are time
limited, or there's only a narrow window of good weather. So those exploration
divers are subject to the same mental pressures to go ahead and dive even when
it's risky.

------
harshreality
Everest has become a freakshow.

Humans are not built to climb that high, even with supplemental oxygen there
is a non-trivial risk of brain trauma from blood vessel leakage even if you
don't die from it. When the final push from camp 4 to the summit is a human
traffic jam, the risks multiply. Because of the logistical difficulty of
getting there and preparing, and the perceived (not real) "accomplishment" of
reaching the summit, people take excessive risks rather than quitting when
they start having cognitive impairments, the weather turns, or they're moving
too slowly or using too much oxygen on the ascent, making the risk severe
during descent. It's not a good situation.

Anyone with a death wish should take on one of the other peaks in the
Himalayas, without all of the route prep that goes on on Everest and turns it
into fast food mountaineering.

Anyone without a deathwish can find plenty of challenge on more convenient
mountains elsewhere, climbing only when weather and avalanche risk are very
low, since there's less pressure of feeling, like many do on Everest, that
it's a once in a lifetime opportunity and they've paid lots of money to get
there so they have to keep going. Or take up rock climbing. Excellent
technical challenge and strength training, lower risk (with rope and
prudence).

Everest used to be at real challenge. Now it's more of a contest of luck and
whether you have the money. People climb it for the status, but look at the
damned lines! That's not status, people. That's being a lemming. Wake up.

~~~
actuator
I agree with your sentiment mostly but I think rock climbing and mountain
expeditions are just different ballgames.

I think you can't just label mountain expeditions as deathwish, a big reason
people are pulled towards mountaineering is the sheer thrill you get not just
battling the knowns(technical climbs, routes) but also the unknowns(weather,
AMS). Mountains can be unforgiving(8 climbers died in Nanda Devi a week back)
but the accomplishment you get is also something worth savouring.

Once you start, you can hardly go back. I have only done six thousanders but
even I want to do more.

~~~
lhorie
I read it as GP saying that rushing Everest specifically is a death wish, but
that mountaineering elsewhere responsibly is what a sane person ought to look
for.

------
dopeboy
Has anyone here climbed Everest? What drove you and what it's like up there?
How did you feel afterwards?

------
rbanffy
My favorite quote on the subject still is "Every corpse on Everest was once a
highly motivated person".

------
scythe
Something about this reminds me of school shooting stories: it’s meamt to
discourage Everest trekkers, but it will probably end up encouraging them.
Misconceptions abound.

Some argue that people shouldn’t climb Everest because it’s not that
impressive anymore. This is irrelevant: people aren’t dumb or arrogant enough
to believe they’ll convince their friends they’re great mountaineers. They’re
obviously not great mountaineers and they’re at least minimally self-aware.

Some argue that people shouldn’t climb Everest because it’s crowded and not
exclusive. But Mecca is crowded and the hajj rolls on. Explain.

Still others argue that people shouldn’t climb Everest because it’s dangerous.
This is the worst argument of all! Dangerous things are cool! Half the stories
I tell at parties involve me almost dying. Or at least I try to make it sound
that way.

There is one single fact that makes people climb Everest: _people don’t like
to explain their accomplishments._ Everyone knows what Mount Everest is.
Everyone knows it’s dangerous to climb. What you gain is having done something
everyone else can recognize. Stories like this only increase the notoriety of
the peak. Nobody’s going to be impressed if you summit _Kangchenjunga_ What’s
that? Aconcagua? Never heard of it. Nanda Parbat? I think I had that at an
Indian restaurant once. And so on.

Every time someone tweets a news story about deaths on Everest, two more
idiots decide to buy a trip. I guarantee it.

~~~
bitL
Climbing Mt. Everest became a ticket to upper strata at many corporations
these days that want "cool leaders".

------
whitenoice
For people interested in the topic of Himalayan big wall climbing, do checkout
the movie Meru -
[https://www.imdb.com/title/tt2545428/](https://www.imdb.com/title/tt2545428/)
it's excellent!

~~~
actuator
Jimmy Chin, the guy who directed this and went on the climb also directed Free
Solo featuring Alex Honold.

------
wybiral
I've always thought of "climbing Mount Everest" as being a literal figure of
speech for something incredibly difficult and potentially very dangerous.

Why do these people think it's going to be anything less than that?

~~~
9nGQluzmnq3M
Because most of these people are accustomed to throwing money at people to
solve their problems.

~~~
maxxxxx
That’s probably it. Also, there are climbers who do it for the love of
climbing but for most of these people it’s something to brag about. “ Not only
am I better because I am rich but I am also physically better and I do harder
things than you.”

~~~
briandear
It seems like many of the debates on HN seem to quickly devolve into classism.
I am pretty sure not many people have ever met an Everest climber, let alone
got to know any in order to make these sweeping generalizations.

~~~
maxxxxx
I have talked to a guy who had climbed Mount Everest that way. He had the goal
of climbing all the highest peaks on all continents and Everest was one of
them. He also came from a wealthy family. He had the time and money to put in
the time preparing and then paying >50k for the Everest climb. Who can afford
this money and taking off months for an expedition? From what I have read
Everest climbers are either basically very poor people who put all they have
into climbing or they are rich enough to take time off and pay for that hobby.
For a regular guy with a regular job it’s very difficult to do.

~~~
Mediterraneo10
A lot of 8000-meter-plus climbers are ordinary middle-class people. The huge
expenses of getting to the Himalayas, paying for permits and gear are covered
by sponsorships. In some small European countries, no one from there has yet
climbed Everest, Nanga Parbat etc. without supplementary oxygen. That means
any expedition will get big coverage in national media, and consequently it is
easy to obtain sponsorship from local subsidiaries of multinationals (e.g.
Pepsi, Johnny Walker, etc.)

~~~
maxxxxx
"In some small European countries, no one from there has yet climbed Everest,
Nanga Parbat etc. without supplementary oxygen."

Isn't that a totally different level? I thought most paid climbers use oxygen.

------
cultus
It would be better to ban oxygen on Everest. A much more limited number would
summit, and there would be no more discarded oxygen tanks. I've been up to
6400m and climbing up there was the most physically difficult thing I'd ever
done, I can't imagine 8800m. However, people can and have climbed it without
oxygen numerous times.

~~~
actuator
I personally think it would be wrong to ban it. Also, the criticism the
Nepalese government will face in case someone dies because of lack of oxygen
will be immense. I have heard stories of experienced climbers suffering from
AMS on some climbs. No one would want that to convert to HAPE.

------
mychael
Does anyone know why that Sherpa's face has that distinctive tone? Is it
frostbite or some kind of sun burn?

Great article by the way!

~~~
actuator
Sun burn and tan. When you spend most of your time at high altitude and don't
use some kind of sun block you get that tone. I have seen that tone in local
populations at altitudes > 3000m

~~~
raverbashing
Thinner atmosphere where they live and snow definitely contribute to a higher
incidence of solar rays

~~~
actuator
Yeah. You can definitely feel the sun there. It is hard to adjust to these
areas, but definitely some of the most beautiful I have been to.

------
aitchnyu
Could one invent a protocol to eliminate almost all deaths? The article
mentions a prudent Sherpa aborting summitting for a client who would be unable
to descend. But can anything be done about sudden failures of the body in high
altitude?

------
AtlasBarfed
30-130k per person, but a sheep make 8k a season?

The Nepalese government should mandate payouts to Sherpas much higher than
that.

------
kstenerud
The thing that gets my blood boiling is the discarded trash scattered around
everywhere. They removed 3 tons of trash a few years back in a big cleanup
attempt. If you can't carry your trash back, you shouldn't be climbing up in
the first place :/

~~~
krapp
I wonder if tourism shouldn't be considered a form of pollution, and if the
countries that export the most tourists shouldn't also pay a tax similar to a
carbon tax towards cleaning the damage they do to the local environment.

~~~
icebraining
Many places have a tourist tax already. In this case, like the article says,
there's a $11000 tax for each person climbing the Everest.

------
bitL
BTW, a small hint, anyone climbing 8,000+ peaks should get a large dose of
Viagra ;-)

EDIT: For those that didn't get it, it significantly helps with altitude
sickness.

