

Feds: Top e-tailers profit from billion-dollar Web scam - geuis
http://news.cnet.com/8301-1023_3-10399880-93.html?tag=mncol;txt
Its a couple paragraphs down, but these are companies that have been found to sell your credit card numbers to 3rd parties. I have used Fandango for a long time, but never will again.<p>"The government says the investigation shows that Webloyalty, Affinion, and Vertrue "trick" consumers into entering their e-mail address just before they complete purchases at sites such as Orbitz, Priceline.com, Buy.com, 1-800 Flowers, Continental Airlines, Fandango, and Classmates.com. A Web ad, which many consumers say appears to be from the retailer, offers them cash back or coupon if they key in their e-mail address."
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patio11
This bites shareware developers in the hindquarters every once in a while.
Typically, the payment processor that you're paying 8%+ to to represent your
interests decides "Why charge $2.50 for this transaction when I can instead
charge $2.50 and then get a $40 CPA from Scums R' Us?"

Astonishingly when shareware vendors call them on it, they _defend_ the
practice. This is one reason I refuse to do business with any of them. I
respect that many folks have a visceral dislike of Paypal, but Paypal has
never tried to steal from my customers and tell me its _right_.

Here are some blog posts about it. See, in particular, the comments for the
justifications from their PR/CS people.

[http://successfulsoftware.net/2007/07/04/swreg-customers-
bew...](http://successfulsoftware.net/2007/07/04/swreg-customers-beware/)

[http://www.kalzumeus.com/2007/07/05/conflict-of-interest-
pay...](http://www.kalzumeus.com/2007/07/05/conflict-of-interest-payment-
processors-vs-uisvs/)

<http://www.kalzumeus.com/2008/03/09/regsoft-scam/>

Every few months I get "reputation management" requests about that post.
Apparently its on top of Google for something embarrassing to the company.
_Shucks._

~~~
dangrover
I've gotten sales emails from TrialPay saying that I should offer it as a form
of payment on my site.

I refused, of course, because I'd imagine those people would be the worst
customers and I'd probably get a bunch of support emails asking about
canceling Netflix. I don't know why any software developer would go with them.

The one company that does I've seen is Smith Micro, but they're kind of scammy
anyway: <http://www.stuffit.com/mac/expander.html>

~~~
patio11
I know one guy who sells a zip utility who swears by them. That said, I'm with
you: it strikes me as highly likely that the increase in my blood pressure
will cost me a lot more than the marginal revenue gained. In addition to
having confused customers to worry about, I simply do not want moral
association with many of things sold via CPA offers, even on TrialPay (which
is, by all accounts, an upright and honest company in a pond of scum).

------
ilamont
So now we know how Classmates.com stays in business.

~~~
patio11
Classmates.com exec to PM in charge of CPA offers: "I don't know how you sleep
at night."

Source:

[http://customerecosystem.wordpress.com/2009/11/02/why-
zynga-...](http://customerecosystem.wordpress.com/2009/11/02/why-zynga-
couldnt-go-public-soon-enough-customer-ecosystem-weakness/)

~~~
brown9-2
Obviously the company as a whole, and not just the PM, learned to sleep just
fine with all that revenue since this happened 7 years ago.

~~~
ableal
Yeah. Poor innocent CEOs have no idea, just no idea, where all those tens of
millions of dollars are coming from. And they "are committed to the highest
standards of ethical conduct in the workplace and in all business dealings and
operations" (Orbitz, one of the named companies, at [http://phx.corporate-
ir.net/phoenix.zhtml?c=212312&p=iro...](http://phx.corporate-
ir.net/phoenix.zhtml?c=212312&p=irol-govConduct)).

Perhaps they can explain how this differs from a shopkeeper that stations a
pickpocket at the till, handles him the customer's wallet, and divvies up the
loot.

------
wallflower
Recurring subscription fees are also at the core of the "Free CD of 5 ways to
do X better if you pay S&H web sites".

1\. Enter email to see video of "My top tip for doing X better"

2\. Person who enters email gets offer to get CD of all of the tips (for S&H
only)

3\. The shady part here is by paying S&H with their credit card they click
through on an agreement to be billed monthly for $Y if they do not cancel

4\. A percentage of people do not cancel (possibly because they want new tips
on how to do X better). This creates a monthly, recurring revenue stream.

It seems very successful:

<http://www.microcontinuity.com/download/im-myth_micro.pdf>

I recall reading a book once where an AOL exec boasted they could probably put
a popup-ad that said "Click here to pay $5 for absolutely nothing" and they
would get clicks from their subscriber base.

------
tlb
The article conflates selling marketing info with credit card numbers. Selling
my marketing info (name, demographics & email) to companies who want to
advertise to me is annoying, but not deeply wrong. Passing on my credit card
number so a 3rd party can charge me for stuff I never wanted _is_ deeply
wrong. Credit card acquirers used to self-regulate that sort of thing, but
clearly many of them are in on the swindle.

Is there software that warns me about devious business practices, similar to
anti-Phishing software? I'd install something that highlights & explains fine
print or deceptive practices that have burned people in the past. I'd pay for
a version that protected my kids. They're cautious about scammy offers, but it
sucks that I had to teach them about it.

------
dhimes
Whoa- I used 1800-Flowers to send flowers to my mom. I didn't fall for the
loyalty garbage, but they spam the bejesus out of me. I guess I need to find
someone else for these holidays.

~~~
3dFlatLander
Yep, same here. I got sick of the spam, and just started using local florists
in my parents home town. They were more than happy to set me up over the
phone.

~~~
juliusseizure
I always support the local business especially when dealing with something
like flowers. If the local shop costs more, I can just send half a dozen
instead of a dozen flowers. This is unlike electronics where you can't take
home half an HDTV and are forced to shop at the big box stores.

------
guelo
I'm not a cryptography expert but it seems like it would be possible to come
up with a scheme where I don't have to provide my cc number to the merchant so
they couldn't turn around and sell it. Maybe the merchant could provide a key
that I could hash my cc number with and then Visa/Mastercard would verify it
for a one-time or recurring charge.

~~~
tlb
It doesn't work: many companies are already at the bottom of that tar pit.

------
dangrossman
Campusfood.com has this on their site too after you order food from any
restaurant.

------
brown9-2
Do these marketers actually sell anything? What do they claim that the
consumers get out of the $9-12/month they pay for this "loyalty program"?

~~~
pyre
It said that they tempt the customers to enter their email address with a
promise of a coupon or discount. Maybe they email the customers with
discounts? Or maybe they're even sneakier, and only give the discounts to
customers that go to their website and plug in their email address.

------
geuis
I'm not entirely comfortable with some unknown editor changing my title for
this story. Yes, in one manner this title is accurate. However, my original
title was simply "Avoid these companies". I had a very specific reason for
posting with that title, both in order to catch the reader's eye and to
summarize the reason for my posting this link in a succinct manner.
Additionally, after I posted the link I added a comment that more thoroughly
explained the content of the article. That comment was removed, apparently, as
I confirmed that it existed on this posting as soon as I posted it.

~~~
mixmax
The upside of a benevolent dictatorship, such as the moderators on HN, is that
unsuitable submissions are killed, bad headlines changed, etc. This makes for
a much better site, and keeps LOL cats, Ron Paul and politics out.

The downside is that you may not always agree with the moderators.

You're free to argue your case of course, and personally I think that's a good
thing. Which is why I upvoted you, even thought I don't personally agree with
your arguments.

~~~
geuis
Returned. I love the discussion and environment we have here, which is why I
keep returning. A bit more openness would be good.

------
flatline
Get your movie tickets - yeah we'll sell your info - Fandango...

