
Narcissistic CEOs weaken collaboration and integrity - hhs
https://www.gsb.stanford.edu/insights/narcissistic-ceos-weaken-collaboration-integrity
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OnlineGladiator
I always think it's good that people research things that are considered
"obvious" because there is always that rare chance you will discover something
unexpected! That said, nothing interesting was really discovered here - the
article does go into a bit more detail but you can really summarize it as
"people don't like to work with assholes, and people especially don't like to
work for assholes"

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erik_landerholm
Hmmm...my experience is very different. A lot of seemingly normal people are
just fine, if not happy to be led by psychopaths and narcissists. They view
their "confidence" as a plus because they don't dig deeply or are just scared,
wimps and like a big strong "asshole" to lead them. I honestly blame the rise
of asshole CEO's and leaders on the normies, who don't want to be be held
accountable.

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zozbot234
It's not happiness, it's complacency. Huge difference. Psychopaths and
narcissists do a LOT of unseen damage if not kept under a very tight leash.

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hervature
Extrapolating from 700 mechanical Turk surveys to CEO behavior seems like
quite the leap.

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bryanmgreen
Are you purposely excluding the " _250 MBA students taking coauthor Chatman’s
course on leadership at UC Berkeley_ " plus the " _nearly 900 business school
alumni from Stanford, Santa Clara University, and UC Berkeley who worked at 56
large, publicly traded high-tech firms based in the United States_ "?

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hervature
Not on purpose, stopped reading after that line about mechanical Turk. Still,
after reading the whole study, I can't believe this is publishable.

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bryanmgreen
I probably would have left out that mechanical Turk data, if only for
perception.

The rest seems quite solid.

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bryanmgreen
I like that the semi-obvious research is being done because it moves the
conversation forward and helps avoid complacency and shrugging-of-shoulders.
Changing the status-quo can be about mindsets, not just product.

Next step is focusing on solutions for/around narcissist leaders.

Also great to see Hacker News supporting these non-engineering business topics
as well.

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cryptica
I definitely agree with the premise of the article that narcissism takes away
value instead of adding value.

Being calculative, cold and even disloyal at an individual level does not make
someone a narcissist, it can be a very altruistic and idealistic thing in
fact. For example, firing untalented employees to make room for more talented,
hard working ones is altruistic IMO. If everyone did this, the system would
work really well and everyone would be better off (even the lazy, untalented
people would be better off thanks to universal improvements in productivity).

I think nepotism is a huge problem now. At scale, loyalty to specific
individuals can be downright evil. Loyalty must only be given on the basis of
shared values and principles.

Criminals can be extremely loyal to each other but they have no shared values
aside from mutual self-preservation.

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mjfl
When I read a description of a narcissist, I think "that sounds like the
description of an average human to me".

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bilbo0s
There was a time it was not so common a trait. I distinctly remember the 70's
and 80's when there were a large number of people who I would say "lacked
confidence" so to speak. Kind of unsure of themselves, shy and retiring types.

As we moved into the 21st century, it does seem like lack of confidence has
gone away. People are almost "over confident" sometimes.

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cj
> People are almost "over confident" sometimes.

Is it possible that people are by and large the same, but that social media
simply makes it very easy for people lacking confidence to come across as more
confident than they really are?

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ashelmire
I suspect it's more that the very confident have their messages amplified on
social media. Most people I encounter in person are not like that.

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timwaagh
The only thing important for a CEO is their effect on bottom line and stock
price. If the effect is that people collaborate less, but results go up, maybe
more collaboration is not necessarily always positive. So in my opinion, just
using these metrics and no economical metrics gives no useful answer for those
who need to hire a CEO. On a further note, the tendency to blame things on
other people's personality types is akin to a modern-day astrology.

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RangerScience
> The only thing important for a CEO is their effect on bottom line and stock
> price.

What? No. Legally that may be true for C-corps, but AFAIK that's explicitly
why people started doing B-corps; to have other metrics of success than just
those two. And even for C-corps, doesn't it still depend on what the
shareholders want?

And after all that, you've still got to consider that if you're only looking
at "ends justify means", well, why do you think you're at an end and can even
measure it?

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throw138away
Recent experience has led me to wonder whether narcissistic founders are more
likely to succeed. Their self-confidence makes them less likely to give up.
When they they have some success through luck or effort from others they will
attribute the success to themselves and keep going, creating a positive
feedback loop for themselves, but a pretty toxic environment for everyone else
involved. Any employees questioning the narcissist will have a bad time.

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nrjames
I’m about to go through a series of job interviews. Any tips on determining
whether potential future managers or coworkers are narcissists? Seems like it
can be hard to suss this out without some longer-term exposure.

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postfacto
Narcissists are very charming initially and very good at hiding it. Some
tells:

\- Very attuned to their own fashion attire. Very well/trendy dressed.

\- Use the words/phrases “value”, “add value”

\- Brag about themselves a lot. Talk about very lofty standards about very
minor details.

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zozbot234
>and very good at hiding it

Not really, you just need to know what to look for. A shallow, materialistic
person with very little sense of humor, curiosity of the
social/intellectual/cultural/creative kind, or visibly empathetic interest in
others is a big red flag. The "curiosity" part may well be the easiest to
assess as an observer, because it's not something that can be faked easily.

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alexfromapex
Any narcissistic exec weakens these things. We had a CIO that came into the
startup I was at and just destroyed the culture.

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jjtheblunt
"Narcissists weaken collaboration and integrity." works as a more general
title, I suspect.

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guest2143
The only defense social humans have is really to detect them. Watch for their
inability to feel empathy.

Ask them to tell a joke. Do they do it right?

[http://hintjens.com/blog:_psychopaths](http://hintjens.com/blog:_psychopaths)

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foobar_
Yeah, loser narcissists are the worst. Pay very little. Fake worse than the
Kardashians. Lie, manipulate, bullshit, boast, play favourites at every turn
at every turn.

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dang
How did they identify who was a narcissist in order to study their effects? I
didn't think there was an objective test for that.

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Moto7451
My personal experience is that this applies to any C suite member.

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xenihn
It applies to anyone who can't be fired easily.

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new_realist
Tesla would make a good case study here.

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dreamcompiler
Narcissists are a specific kind of asshole. They tend to seek power and they
are very good at convincing the people above them that they deserve it. That's
what makes them more dangerous to an organization than average assholes.

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tempsy
Isn't narcissism among those who rise to an executive rank at some point in
their career more the norm rather than the exception?

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warent
I've always thought that was more of a meme/rumor than actual fact. It seems
unlikely to me that the average executive is somebody with a fragile ego that
lacks empathy. From my perspective it can't be the case. The executives I've
worked with have always been powerful teammates with great
listening/communication skills. Maybe I'm just lucky?

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rriepe
Narcissists conduct abuse within intimate (romantic, familial or very close
friends) relationships. Outside of those relationships, they're typically very
well-behaved and even adored.

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xiaolingxiao
could you expand on this? why do they do this?

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rriepe
I'm an emotional philosopher, not a psychologist. But here's my take:

There are two fundamental arguments of the self: additive and subtractive.

The additive argument is called love. It tells us to add to the self.

The subtractive argument is called disgust. It tells us to remove from the
self.

Codependents are addicted to the chemical rewards of love, while narcissists
are addicted to the chemical rewards of disgust.

Narcissists therefore have an overwhelming need to eject things as "not good
enough" from their extended self. If I tell a stranger his haircut looks
stupid, I don't get a disgust reward. If I tell my son that, I do get the
reward because he is part of my extended self.

Basically, narcissists have extremely high standards for themselves. They want
to become fast friends because they want (need, really) to share that terrible
burden.

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friendlybus
Narcissists don't have a real self, they have a developed mask that sits on
top of it. Usually developed in childhood for a parent.

You can't police feelings into evidence of pathology. Some people are more
disgust sensitive than others. There is light and dark to everything,
including love and disgust.

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rriepe
The mask is a metaphor. I'm talking about real things.

If you're addicted to a feeling then that _is_ a pathology. You're right that
love and disgust can both be good or bad, but nobody said otherwise.

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friendlybus
The mask is a real thing.

>You're right that love and disgust can both be good or bad, but nobody said
otherwise

You did when you made disgust a fundamental negative and love a fundamental
positive. But whatever.

>If you're addicted to a feeling then that is a pathology.

Not necessarily, some people deliberately go through bad feelings for the sake
of getting to the bottom of something and integrating that answer. That can
seem like an addiction from the outside.

You do you.

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rriepe
No, the mask is an abstract metaphor.

I said _subtractive_ and _additive_. Chiseling is subtractive. Do you think
chiseling is fundamentally negative?

What point are you trying to make with your "bad feelings" comment? That
narcissists are actually fiercely introspective? What are you even on about?

You say "You do you" but you're the one who butted in. Next time, first know
what you're talking about.

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friendlybus
Nobody knows where feelings come from, what makes them real and but not a
mask, a behaviour people can embody? They are both real.

You said: "There are two fundamental arguments of the self"

You conflated criticizing haircuts with a disgust reward and constructed a
view on narcissists that is defined by feelings nearly everyone feels. Your
view on feelings is too limited to identify a narcissist, as demonstrated by
the idea that you can go through feelings and appear to be an addict from
outside, but not be one.

Butted in to what? A public thread?

The mask idea comes from psychology. A narcissist suffers narcissitic wounds
at an early age and learns to develop a false persona to please abusive
parents instead of a healthy self that grows over time. They stay locked in a
cycle of abuse trying to escape past trauma instead of dealing with it and it
is unleashed on those around them when the tension becomes too much. They
frequently rely on charm and a single talent to get them achievements to
please said relationship and are found to be brittle or liars when challenged.
They will suck the life-force out of others to fuel their own lack of a self.
There is a whole bunch of psychological information on this.

This all has an overlap with the external version of the story, the narcissus
myth. Narcissus is a spirit that embodies the story of self love, being so
captivating to some. He has multiple outcomes. In one he captures the
attention of another so completely that their life becomes drained away and
the adorer becomes no more than an echo in a forest, which mirrors the fueling
the self & abuse cycle from psychology. In another part he sees his reflection
in a pool and becomes unable to leave his own reflection and eventually
suicides or recognizes that the love cannot be reciprocated and becomes a
flower, which mirrors a lot of the empathy focused therapy techniques.

