
Waterloo Co-op: A Blessing and a Curse - kapin
http://joshuakalp.in/blog/2015/04/22/a-blessing-and-a-curse/
======
rll
I did Waterloo engineering co-op as well and yes, it is a bit hectic, but at
that age you can handle it. I wouldn't have traded it for anything. I had
interesting jobs in a number of different countries. I invested my interest-
free student loan in energy mutual funds which turned into a goldmine at that
time and combined with my salary I finished university with lots of
experience, no debt and a ton of money in my bank account. If that is a
"curse" then please curse me some more.

~~~
rudi-c
It seems like the use of the word "curse" is a bit suboptimal. As a UWaterloo
co-op student myself, I agree with everything in the article. I just refer to
the negative points of co-op as a "cost".

------
Permit
A recent Waterloo grad myself, this goes against what I've heard from my peer
group. (Most consider it to be a blessing alone) I also think many of the
downsides listed in this article have little to do with co-op.

Here's a summary of my pros and cons.

Pros:

\- Work experience (2 years)

\- Travel (Within Canada, the US and even Europe if you're up for it)

\- Money. Far more than we probably deserved at that age.

\- Ease of mind regarding future employment. (Speak to any peers who haven't
interned or gained any work experience)

\- Break from school every four months.

\- Break from work every four months.

Cons:

\- Travelling can be annoying.

\- New cities can be lonely. (I spent a term in Ottawa where I knew literally
no-one)

\- No summer break.

Other:

\- The issues with deadlines and stress mentioned in the article are not
related to co-op.

\- The issues with stressful work terms are not related to co-op. It will
likely be the same once you begin your fulltime work.

~~~
kapin
I think you've taken my words at being solely towards co-op, not a co-op
program itself. Deadlines, school, and stress are part of being in a co-op
program. Having a stressful work term, that is when you are supposed to be on
break from school, is part of being in a co-op program.

It's hard, some handle it better than others, but it's naive to say that the
downsides are trivial and have little to do with being in a co-op program.

~~~
ori_b
> _I think you 've taken my words at being solely towards co-op, not a co-op
> program itself. Deadlines, school, and stress are part of being in a co-op
> program._

Deadlines, school, and stress are part of being in a program. Co-op or not.

~~~
pilgrim689
I'd say moving and looking for employment are two very stressful things for
any individual, and for Waterloo co-ops we have to do at least one of those
things every 4 months. Never-mind the "deadlines and school".

~~~
potatolicious
As someone who went through Waterloo co-op, I consider those one of the
greatest takeaways.

It's taken me a while since graduating to realize that most people - tech or
otherwise - consider interviewing to be stressful and unpleasant. Waterloo
ground that out of me early on, I _enjoy_ interviewing. Going into an
interview room doesn't even begin to stress me out - and that's gotten me much
further career-wise than anything else.

My interviewing and job-searching ability, and my _confidence_ in it, has
given me insane leverage in the market.

I for one am glad that Waterloo's trial-by-fire job-hunt (find a job in your
1A term? sheesh) happened to me. Negotiating, interviewing, and networking are
3 skills that most people leave school knowing almost nothing about, but a
Waterloo student can _easily_ rack up 70+ interviews by the time they walk out
the door, and negotiated a dozen or so offers.

------
ryanobjc
I did software coop at UBC, and I can say without a doubt that the coop model
is purely an invention of a highly conservative business culture. For those
with the skills and the desire, I say skip it. The loss of community with the
rest of your class is huge, and the extra time is not worth the money compared
to a real post-graduation career.

Additionally, most post-college hiring here in the Bay Area, and elsewhere, is
focused on your inherent personal skills, and not on some aspect of "I've done
it before". In other words, a coop buys you not much on your first hire out of
school, and little post that.

Now this is all bracketed as a computer science coop. If you are seeking to do
civil engineering in Canada, by all means stick with coop. Canadian companies
are extremely conservative and (typically) won't hire you for what you can do,
but what you DID do.

~~~
rll
Loss of community with the rest of your class? At Waterloo co-op in
engineering is not optional. Your entire class is on the same 4-month school-
workterm-school schedule.

~~~
dblohm7
Not in other faculties, though. The BMath/CS program for example.

~~~
mlex
You're close enough to being "on-stream" with at least half of your starting
class. The bulk of your co-op schedule will be alternating between 4-month
school and work terms, and you'll generally align close to the engineering
"8-stream" or "4-stream" schedules, with some 8-month terms here and there.

------
fourtens
I want to point out that the experience of most of the commenters is in the
software engineering field. The situation for co-ops in other programs, such
as chemical engineering, is VASTLY different. If you look at the hiring rates
there, it's rather abysmal. Talk to any of the chem eng, nano eng, or even
some mech eng and you'll find that a whole bunch of them are doing unpaid
volunteer positions to get their co-op hours, or working low paying, menial
menial jobs - especially for the first few co-ops. It is by far NOT the same
experience as software engineers have it.

Also, it's very very common for chem engs (hah, I guess you have figure it
out, I'm a chem eng from waterloo) to graduate with significant debt. My first
co-op paid 6k as I worked for a professor, my second paid 18$ an hour, third
was 15$ an hour, 4th was 22$ an hour, then I got into oil and was paid around
33$ an hour for the last two co-ops. I think I got really lucky - I know many
people who just took a term off because they couldn't find a job - and they
were sociable and had pretty good marks!

just believe me. It's different in other programs.

------
kapin
Want to add some footnotes, comments, or whatever you want to call them.

1\. I wrote this about the program in general, not about co-op terms or
internships.

2\. I used "curse" in the title because well, it fits in a writing sense
(contrasts). Downsides, cons, whatever it is all the same.

3\. I understand that real life is working 8 hour days, but at the same time
it isn't surrounded by constantly moving and school.

4\. Co-op is amazing. As I said I wouldn't trade it for anything, but you have
no stability in life. When working full time you aren't moving your life every
4 months. Moving is hard enough as is.

Take my words as you want. This is my experience and how I've felt 4 years in
and nothing more. Nothing in life comes without its warts and downsides (or
curses if you may).

~~~
rocky1138
I move often (once a year for the past three years). Once in Kitchener, twice
in Waterloo. I'm moving on the first of May. I've been a professional software
developer for 10 years now. Moving and never being stable in life is a reality
for me. It does not get easier.

------
parasubvert
Former Waterloo CS co-op (96-01) here.

I found that school kicked your ass hard, and work was relatively a break. I
got very good at Quake GL, Quake 2, and Unreal Tournament on work terms. When
I was at startups we worked long hours, but we also goofed off a lot. At IT
shops, life was 9-5.

I understand the tiredness of working an 8 hour day and wanting to do nothing
afterwards, but I don't think that's unique co-op, that's just learning how to
work an 8+ hour shift. Took a few years to get used to that - I fell asleep at
work some afternoons!.. your body needs time to adjust to the new pattern, and
you need to learn to structure your meals to fit your needs (eg. breakfast
might be mandatory or not, at lunch don't eat foods that put you to sleep at
3pm, carbs for some, protein for others, get some exercise in which actually
gives you more end of day energy).

What I would recommend is to actually take a break if you need to, like if
you're losing your grip. I.e. take a term or two off, or do an extended work
term. You'll be out of sync with your school friends, but if they're you're
friends, they'll be in touch. I stretched a 4 month work term into an 8 month
term once without any problems - just switched streams.

Eventually I dropped out and didn't finish my degree to work on Wall Street,
but that's another story.

------
uiri
Part of this is that Co-Op terms are 16 weeks long. There are 52 weeks in a
year, 16*3 eats up 48 weeks, if there are 2 or 3 weeks for Christmas it simply
isn't possible to have more than a week or so between the winter and
spring/summer and between the spring/summer and fall terms. I feel like 12
weeks is a better length for an internship, but I believe that the University
Co-Op rules require that it be at least 16 weeks.

I feel that a lot of the packing and moving stress which the author describes
is self-inflicted. If one is moving every four months it makes sense to pay
the extra money for a furnished place rather than criss-cross the continent
moving one's furniture and cookware around. If one is going from Waterloo
across the continent, then it makes sense to take only stuff which one will be
able to take on the plane. It might make sense to have a storage locker in
Waterloo to throw excess stuff in (books and other entertainment-related
things come to mind). The author claims to have done 3 co-op terms in the US,
I would hope that he had this down to a science by now. At least some
checklists or something to streamline the process. And given the number of
Waterloo grads at this point, I would hope that even freshman have moving
checklists.

------
ultrasaurus
Co-op was a weirdly disorienting time for a lot of reasons, but I've done
hundreds of interviews at PagerDuty, and UW co-ops are a lot better for it. I
strongly prefer to hire them (Hiring! SF! Toronto! Yay!
[http://l.euri.ca/1Htzmav](http://l.euri.ca/1Htzmav) ).

Working at 3+ places for 4-8 months isn't a perfect substitute for years of
experience, but it's a huge improvement over school projects.

~~~
r0naa
Slightly off-topic but PagerDuty is one of the company that make us very proud
to be Waterloo students (alongside with Thalmic, Pebble etc...). Keep rockin'
and thank you! :)

------
devanti
I didn't go to Waterloo, but I predominantly hire from them, and I work with
their graduates on a daily basis.

Yes. They get the best work experience. They will have no problems finding a
secure job in engineering.

A problem I see is their lack of "university experience" and social growth.
For some people with natural social abilities this is not a problem, but for
others, university is a once in a lifetime experience to cultivate all aspects
of personal growth.

This is very important especially for engineers, where the majority of us are
introverts. I was one myself, and I learned invaluable things in university
not related to work or school.

These days, it's actually quite easy to find a good job in engineering, no
matter what school you're from, as long as you're smart enough to pass
technical interviews.

------
mgrouchy
I went to a university basically no one here has ever heard of but The
engineering program has the same 4 month on/off schedule. I was a CS student
and the CS department has a co-op/internship program that is a bit different,
its a minimum 8 months and max 16 months continuous which is really nice.
Actually helps you get settled in and accomplish something fairly substantial.

It also, allows you to organize it in a way that you can schedule it to start
right before your last semester, so you can potentially start your co-op,
complete it, do 1 semester in school then get out in the work force.

~~~
shepting
I went to school at the University of Regina, and did an engineering co-op 5
years ago. It was amazing to see how gradual it makes moving out from home if
you go to school in the same city where you grew up.

My work terms were Regina (home) -> Saskatoon (3 hrs away) -> Waterloo (28 hrs
away) -> India (really far) and definitely was able to grow in experience each
time.

I'd say it was invaluable for learning what was important and what wasn't with
respect to the class materials.

Now I'm at Twitter and often look back to the wide experience I gained at
companies where I could leave after 4 months and have no negative
repercussions.

------
analogwzrd
I didn't go to Waterloo, but I was a 5 session co-op student at Purdue. What
this guy says is pretty much true, but I don't think we highlighted some of
the benefits.

I basically lived out of car for 5 years. If it didn't fit in the car, I
couldn't take it with me. So it forced me to choose what actually mattered. It
also forces you to make friends quickly because you'll be leaving again in a
few months. I'm pretty introverted, so this was good experience.

It does prevent you from establishing long term relationships with students
not on a co-op rotation. I'd come back to school from working, and I'd always
have to catch up on inside jokes, who's dating who, and other silly things
that glue groups of people together.

The biggest benefit was the opportunity to work on actual engineering projects
with a team of professional engineers and to be mentored. practically one on
one. And, of course, I was able to get my foot in the door at a good company
and have my career accelerated.

At school, the biggest benefit was that I had a better context for what we
were learning in class. I was able to ask really good questions because I had
a better understanding of how each topic fit into a larger picture.

Co-oping doesn't give you the typical, Hollywood version of what college is
supposed to be like. But who cares? It gives you something much more
practical.

------
dgrant
Here's where my situation might be a bit different then this guy's. I lived in
Vancouver with my parents while going to school at UBC which makes things a
lot easier. Family time was most nights for dinner, unless I was at school
late. On weekends I was able hang out with my family and friends. This was
true during school and co-op. My mom and dad made dinner every night and often
threw my laundry in with theirs. I didn't have to do grocery shopping or any
of that crap. I did do one co-op away from home (in Ottawa) and it was awesome
and I was lucky to have lots of Waterloo students that I met and hung out
with. :-) I also did 2 years at Waterloo for a Masters so I know what going to
school away from home is like. Like he said, it's good and bad.

In Ontario, it's quite common for kids to be living away from home. That's at
least true for almost all the kids at Western Ontario and Waterloo since those
towns don't have the population to support the school by locals alone.

So I'm wondering how much of this guy's experience has to do with him being
away from his childhood "home"? I wonder how he'd feel going to school at UoT
and living at home and doing is co-op terms somewhere else? It depends on your
parents I guess...

(I'm old now, so I can call 18-22 year old university students "kids")

------
jacorreia
I would be interested to see what others have to say about the different co-op
program running at the University of Toronto: instead of the multiple
4/8-month co-op terms we have a single 16-month co-op term between 3rd and 4th
year. You're encouraged to find your own internships after 1st and 2nd year,
but the career centre provides (basically) no aid. If you do however find work
those two summers you end up with the same amount of work experience in the
end, but with several of those terms (potentially) at the same company back-
to-back. I personally chose UofT over Waterloo because I accepted the line of
'companies are more open to hiring students available for a longer time
because they get more out of training, so you'll have better opportunities
available' at the time. However, I can see many arguments for and against both
co-op systems. It's hard for me to be objective about it as I've yet to see
the long-term consequences, and I've managed to get pretty great internships
every summer plus my coming 16-month term. I'd really like to hear other
opinions of people who may never have heard of such a program (both in what's
better for the student and what's better for companies who run internship
programs)!

------
reledi
Having done co-op myself, one thing most students don't seriously consider is
taking extra time to get your degree - also doable for international students
like I was.

Don't take a full course load if you feel overloaded and stressed, especially
in the upper years. In my case, I used the extra time on multiple side
projects and sports, and lived with my SO and cat. My upper years at
university were fantastic.

~~~
timothya
If you're in engineering at Waterloo, you don't have a choice about course
load - you must have a full course load at all times.

~~~
reledi
That's unfortunate. I hope the option is added for the sake of the students'
health.

~~~
jarek
There is an unofficial option. Failing a term or two. We have a saying that
engineering can be the worst five years of your life or the best seven.

------
jonalmeida
UWindsor student here. I did one of my co-ops in Waterloo at BlackBerry so I
got to know the local students fairly well. The problem with Waterloo co-op is
how rigid the system is to 4 month only terms.

Four months is barely enough time to get a good grounding of what work is like
at that company, and the company itself looses out on training someone and
then having them leave after a short period of time. For large companies, that
works fine because it's an investment into whether you would be a good full-
time hire. But it's not universally helpful.

I've found that 8 month co-ops are the most ideal. Less running around, you
spend a good stable 6 months doing work (depending on the company) as a full-
time employee would, and the company benefits from it as well.

Co-ops in general though teach you how to pack light and not carry unnecessary
baggage. I've always grown up on the move so it was easy for me to adapt, but
it helpful for those who don't do it often.

~~~
peeters
UWaterloo is generally pretty receptive to 8 month coop terms. It's not too
difficult to arrange. In programs with one stream however (SoftEng was one
stream while I was there), it's more difficult because you essentially end up
having to join the next year's class.

~~~
srcreigh
Yes. I'm in CS class of 2017. We have 4 streams, so basically everyone is
everywhere all the time. You can do whatever you want whenever you want.

Halfway through my first co-op term, I was asked to stay another four months.
I was able to say "yes" on the spot. It only took about 20 minutes of work to
arrange it with UW. I just had to fill out a form and email it to the right
co-op advisor.

------
natdempk
4 months seems a bit short for this continuous cycle. I go to Northeastern
University and they do 6 month cycles of work/school. They also start off with
a year and a half to two years of classes on a traditional schedule when you
first enroll in college. This seems less relentless than the 4 month schedule
described at Waterloo.

~~~
ipp
At Guelph, we do two full years of academics and a summer off before any co-op
work term (so we have one less work term overall), and have two 8-month work
terms and a 4-month as part of our schedule[1]. I think that's a much more
workable schedule, and I think Waterloo even has a similar scheduling option
in terms of term duration (at least for CS) as I've worked with a student from
there for the same 8-months. As long as you stay with the same employer for
8-months (many seem willing if you ask) or the same town for both placements,
it works out fairly well.

[1]:
[https://www.uoguelph.ca/registrar/calendars/undergraduate/cu...](https://www.uoguelph.ca/registrar/calendars/undergraduate/current/c10/c10bcomp-
seng-c.shtml)

~~~
eddotman
Another Gryphon! I think you might be the first I've seen on HN. A few of my
friends did Nanoscience co-op and I've pretty much only heard good things (I
did the non co-op stream though since I didn't want to take the extra year to
finish).

------
Xyik
The most stressful part is preparing for anywhere from 10-20 technical
interviews during midterms. There is nothing worst than knowing you have to
balance your University degree with future Job prospects. I'm glad I had to go
through it because there is no way I would be ready for it in the real world
otherwise. Technical interviews are tough and all of the best companies do
them. The rewards however, are a blessing indeed:

[http://betabeat.com/2014/11/heres-what-tech-companies-pay-
th...](http://betabeat.com/2014/11/heres-what-tech-companies-pay-their-
interns-prepare-to-cry/)

------
matdrewin
Personally, I don't think I would have learned much if it wasn't for co-op. I
paid my way through university and gained a lot of valuable experience that
helped me land my first job.

------
mathattack
What amazes me is how strongly the Waterloo folks do in every field. I bumped
into quite a few that excelled at Finance too. Combination of solid skills and
humility.

------
an_d_rew
I also have a Waterloo Co-Op degree (biochemistry & math), and can say without
a doubt that doing co-op was one of the best decisions of my early
professional life.

Many, many years later... through academia and industry jobs, and as someone
who hires now, a good co-op program is a phenomenal plus to helping you figure
out who you are, professionally speaking.

And it lets you see where the blend between application and theory really
lies, with respect to your own personal values.

------
ndaugherty18
Kettering University does something similar but it is 3 months school 3 months
work for the entirety of your schooling. It is very hectic but if you like
things fast paced and the ability to work in your field of study its pretty
awesome.

------
terrilldent
It seems that the author has overlooked the option of staying in Waterloo and
working for one of the many companies that are actively looking for talented
students.

Edit: I was a UW co-op student and did all my terms in Waterloo.

~~~
rll
I couldn't wait to get away from Waterloo for my work terms. Winters in
Waterloo are extremely unpleasant! My last two work terms were in Brazil and I
actually ended up working for this Brazilian company after I graduated but
like most of my peers I could have called on any of my former work term
companies and instantly gotten a job without putting my resume in amongst the
pile of unknown new-grad resumes.

------
dzhiurgis
Anyone else thought this will be about co-operative shop around London
Waterloo station area?

------
tempestn
I did electrical engineering at UVic (University of Victoria), which uses the
same schedule as Waterloo. (As it happens, I actually went on to do a Master's
at Waterloo, so although I didn't do co-op there, I'm familiar with their
program as well.)

For me, co-op was an unequivocally positive experience. For one thing, as the
OP says, school is stressful. More stressful than all but the worst full-time
jobs. With a co-op program, you're only in school for four months at a time
rather than eight, which really helps; it's a (relatively) short burst of
intense focus, rather than a near-year-long slog. Yes you're moving every four
months, but the trick there is just to not have too much stuff! For a four
month visit somewhere, all you really need are some clothes (generally for
only one season, so not your entire wardrobe) and toiletries, a laptop, and
maybe a few odds and ends - chess board, deck of cards, whatever, and your
phone. That's about it, really. You rent rooms in furnished houses, and just
hold off on collecting too much "stuff" until you graduate. (Of course, you
still do need somewhere to leave the stuff you don't cart around with you.
Parents are generally willing to hold onto it, but if not, a storage unit
would suffice.) I've done several work terms with only what I could fit in my
suitcase.

I've also found co-op terms to be a fantastic opportunity to meet new people.
Ideally there are other co-op students working at the same company - people
who are in the same situation as you, transplanted into a new city, looking
for new friends. Even if not, there are often meetups for co-op students and
that sort of thing where you can meet others from other companies. Especially
in cities like Seattle and San Francisco! And sure you don't get paid vacation
days, but... I don't know about you, but at least for me, coming from a term
of engineering, even having weekends off without a mountain of homework to
tackle was like paradise. It was absolutely a break. (And it's not like you
wouldn't be working on your off terms without co-op! You'd just be doing it at
Burger King or something.)

I was certainly lucky in some ways. My parents lived in Victoria, so I had a
convenient place to leave my stuff when I left for work terms. And most of the
companies I worked at had large groups of co-op students, so I generally had a
good group of people to spend time with. But I think with the right outlook,
putting in some effort, it would be possible to have a similarly good
experience without those advantages. And then of course, there's this:

> The breadth and depth of the experiences, both academic and life, that I’ve
> had on co-op would never have happened if I was in a regular program.

Nothing compares to trying a new job in a new city every other four months.
You're not necessarily knowledgeable enough through most of your degree (at
least in hardware, as I was) to get a lot of _technical_ experience from most
work terms - although of course you get some - but what you get a ton of is
experience with different types of companies and working environments. It
really helped me to figure out what kind of company I wanted to work for, and
eventually what kind of company I wanted to run.

