
A Swede Returns to Silicon Valley from China - jaimebuelta
http://blog.traintracks.io/a-swede-returns-to-silicon-valley-from-china-2/
======
msvan
I'm also a Swede who has also lived in SF and Beijing.

The social problems of SF are certainly a bit of a shock coming from
Scandinavia, and I can understand the author's excitement about Beijing. But
there are a couple of deal-breakers about China that would make it very tough
for me to consider moving back:

* You'll always be an expat. You can become an American both legally and culturally, but you cannot become Chinese in either sense. As someone who grew up surrounded by US culture, it makes more sense to live in the US than in China.

* Your business is always going to be at a disadvantage compared to native businesses. I don't have any first-hand experience of this, but from what I understand, government connections are necessary to get anything going, especially in hyper-competitive China.

* There's no public debate. The government has little oversight. The internet is censored. There are plenty of policies that I consider indefensible. The US has plenty of flaws too, but at least there is an open discussion about these flaws and a pathway towards fixing them.

SF can be a bit insular and self-absorbed at times, but I felt more at home
there than I did in Beijing.

~~~
wwwdonohue
His emphasis on social justice (re: your fourth point) is what makes this
article a bit confusing to read. I don't live in SF, but from a distance it
certainly looks more liberal and progressive than China:
[http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-
china-35217218](http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-35217218)

Häagen-Dazs or no Häagen-Dazs, I feel that SF's moral compass is screwed in
slightly tighter than Beijing's.

~~~
wtbob
And some of the problems of SF (e.g. the homelessness, the mentally ill, the
dirtiness & shabbiness of the city) are a direct result of its liberal &
progressive government.

~~~
pavlov
That argument would be more convincing if the original poster were not
comparing SF to Sweden -- the country that essentially solved those problems
in 1950-1980 by having the most liberal and progressive government in the
world.

~~~
mikaeluman
Sick and tired of non-swedes thinking socialists ever did anything for this
country. Nothing was "solved" by politics in those years. Quite the opposite,
our lean and mean economy faltered until the socialists became fiscally
conservative in the 90s.

The sheer arrogance of Swedes dissing US is also annoying. Go to our new
ghettos and inspect the great equity the progressives have established lately.

~~~
stvswn
American progressives tend to use Sweden (and Scandanavia generally) as models
of how socialism can succeed, probably unaware that Sweden is a highly-
productive, modern, capitalist society with capiitalist notions free trade,
property rights, investment freedom, and monetary policy. In other words,
socialists love to provide examples of socialism that are pretty devoid of
actual socialism. Sweden has high taxes and a generous welfare regime, but it
doesn't have government ownership of the means of production ("socialism").
That's why Sweden is Sweden.

Source: Heritage foundation's economic freedom index (Sweden does very well:
[http://www.heritage.org/index/country/sweden](http://www.heritage.org/index/country/sweden))

~~~
aminok
And Sweden's economic growth rate stagnated after it adopted large social
welfare programs in the 1970s, and only somewhat recovered when it instituted
market reforms in the late 90s and 2000s, including reductions in social
benefits and income tax cuts.

~~~
uola
That seems quite unlikely since Sweden had right wing governments during 76-82
and 91-94.

~~~
arvinjoar
All it takes is an Olof Palme... :P

------
salmon30salmon
I can not disagree with this article more, and I do not mean with his
experiences, that is fine, embrace your feelings. But to pretend that China
_solves_ these social problems is a farce. China _jails_ these social
problems. China _forces_ these social problems to work in mines and other
forced labor industries. China _censors_ anybody who questions it. They have a
god damn firewall blocking people from finding any information on their
government's ills. Talk about a walled garden, or should I say a firewalled
garden.

He is in such a privileged position in China. He is a white man with money. He
is the _elite_ in Beijing that he so quickly judges in San Francisco. Wake up
man, you are the powerful in Beijing, you are the analog to the guy living in
the million dollar apartment in SFO.

San Francisco, and the United States has many surface problems, but many of
these problems are due to being _liberal_ when it comes to homelessness and
mentally ill. Can the USA do better? Of course, without a doubt. But it is
such a false equvilancy to compare the laissez faire problems of the west with
the oppressive problems of China.

~~~
jernfrost
Then you read another article than me. He acknowledged that China had real
problems and was not any better than the US. His point was that China was
moving somewhere. That is a point I can relate to, because it seems like
America isn't even trying to solve its problems.

Pollution is a great point. No doubt China is far more polluted than America
today. So it is far worse. However China has a much grander goals and
incentives for change. They put in place stricter emission standards for new
cars. They invest very heavily in renewable energy to the point where most
solar cells today are made in China. They acknowledge they have a serious
problem. In contrast in America a large fraction of the population are
disputing that there even is a problem to begin with.

This attitude mirrors the other state affairs in China and the US. American
conservatives blame poor people for their problems. They didn't work hard
enough, didn't get an education, have the wrong attitude or whatever. China at
least accepts that poverty is a problem. But they have to fight epidemic
corruption and many other on problems on many fronts.

China no doubt is a dictatorship. But it is also a developing country. I can't
see the justification for America being a de-facto police state. No western
nation has as draconian punishment, no nation locks up as many people or has
as militarized police. So there is no reason to be smug towards China.

~~~
salmon30salmon
Not being smug towards China at all, they do many commendable things. However,
the author did not use the militarization of police, or mass incarceration as
negative points in the US. He used the homelessness, drug use and mental
illness along with the general dirtiness of the streets of SF. My point was a
direct counter to that, that while the US has a problem with homelessness,
China averts that problem through forced labor, incarceration etc.

Now, were he to say "the United States has a huge problem with militarization
and I dislike this" I would have countered with China's behavior in the South
China Sea as a counterpoint demonstrating aggression on the part of the PRC

Would he have mentioned incarceration, I would have brought up the house
arrests and indefinite detention of journalists and political opponents to the
Communist party.

I could go on. Great, China is working on pollution, but don't for a minute
think this is due to global climate change, rather their citizens are dying
due to the pollution. Motivations aside, good on them for taking a lead.

And really, that is a poor excuse. Because China is in the midst of an
economic Renaissance they are excused from the basic tenants of human rights?
Of a free people? By the same argument, slavery was a-ok during the early
years of the United States. But I reject that terrible ethical relativism and
insist that slavery was as wrong then as it now, and so are the abuses that
the PRC commits upon its own people.

~~~
uola
You're greatly missing the point in favor of your own argumentation. As one of
the most prosperous places on earth, we expect SF to do better. China is a
mess, yet in Shenzhen they've been averaging a new metro station every month
for the last ten years and that is only one Chinese city. You say we shouldn't
excuse Chinas faults because of its state, yet you are ready to "counter" any
critique of the US with something that is worse in China.

~~~
salmon30salmon
Not at all. I am conceding points where China is ahead. Yes, their
transportation infrastructure is improving at a pace far greater than the
United States. I won't take that away from China.

You and the parent are missing _my_ point. The author _specifically_ mentioned
the social issues, like homelessness. And I _countered_ this _specific_ issue
by pointing out that there may be different, and worse, reasons why the city
seems to have less of a homelessness problem.

At this point, the parent of our conversation insisted on comparing apples to
oranges (yeah okay China has some bad social problems, but what about police
militarization? what about incareration?) These are points that I did not
bring up, because I was focusing on the points the author made. I decided to
rebuke those points with some counter examples.

Everyone wants to compare $WorstThingAmericaDoes with $BestThingChinaDoes and
I am comparing $UnitedStatesHomelessness with $ChineseHomlessness

Finally, I do not excuse the faults of the US, there are many of them. And
they are as inexcusable as the faults in China.

~~~
uola
I understand your point it's just not very interesting. This is why people
don't want to go to the US, because it's an ecochamber of generic opinions
that doesn't listen to anyone else.

The US used to be a place where people would arrive with only the money in
their wallet and fight their way to the the top. Today your asked to pay 4k a
month to live in a suburban hellhole and suck up to investors.

~~~
salmon30salmon
I know its an age old internet adage to not feed the trolls..

How am I not listening to his opinion? Or yours, if I were so kind as to
categorize as such. I conceded that China has many strengths, many of which
the US can learn from. How is that an echo chamber?

And I do so deeply apologize if you find my opinion "uninteresting" as if one
of the prime forces for an opinion is how spicy it is. I will continue to
expound my "uninteresting" opinions which are backed by "boring" facts and
"generic" lived experiences. Meanwhile, you can place value on how exciting an
opinion is. Agreed?

~~~
uola
Your opinions aren't uninteresting because they aren't spicy, but because they
offer no value. You're in the company of people who spent years in Asia and
other parts of the world running businesses, conferences and making deals.
Yet, you focus on the lowest level of discussion. It's the "me, me, me"
attitude so common in places like SV.

You assume no one else know what you know because you read some Wikipedia
article. Everything you talk about like social problems, privilege or
censorship is completely apparent to anyone who ever set foot in China. People
are there despite these problems not because they are unaware.

People don't bring up US flaws because this is some country competition were
you should keep score, but so you can understand that you value certain things
and ignore others. Just like anyone else, including Chinese people. The world
is mostly the same.

~~~
salmon30salmon
You continue to miss why I brought those up:

I brought up the homelessness and potential reasons for the lack of
homelessness in my original comment because the author posited those as proof
that SFO is broken. I was _responding directly to his thesis_

I brought up militarization and police state/incarceration issues because
those were set out as straw men, away from the original point which was purely
about how each country treats their mentally ill and homeless.

I should not have gotten taken in by the straw men that were laid out. My main
point still remains. China avoids the mentally ill/homelessness issues that SV
faces due to the fact that they arrest, detain, force labor and other such
actions to counter homelessness. I am making a value judgement that the
liberty of the homeless is more valuable to society as a whole than clean
streets. You may be free to make a different value judgement, and I will
freely disagree with you (isn't liberty great?).

~~~
uola
Your main point is the straw man. No one has said that social problems are
better in China. The reason he was shocked over social problems in SF is
because he is from Sweden and he idolized SV.

> As a Swede coming to the States, I was disillusioned. I had, as I think many
> young entrepreneurs have, idolized Silicon Valley as a utopian vision of an
> idealistic but well-meaning band of technocrats building the foundations for
> a just and democratic society, but in its place I found vanity, pettiness
> and greed. Not only did the emperor have no clothes, but the naked corpus
> revealed was unappetizing to my Swedish quasi-socialist ideals. Ultimately,
> I felt alone in Silicon Valley... I left.

The reason he's staying in Beijing isn't because it doesn't have social
problems, but because he finds it more rewarding.

> "[...] I founded a tech startup in Beijing and chances are I'll stay there.
> Why? Because in many ways, Beijing has been a better breeding ground for my
> startup and for my own personal growth than I think Silicon Valley could be
> today.

> Before you object, _I am by no means saying that China is a more just
> society than the States_ , or more technologically advanced - it was just
> clearly moving faster - and you immediately got the impression that Beijing
> was a city concerned with statecraft and the future of its people, rather
> than the latest hot gadget. _For all its warts (and there are many)_ ,
> Beijing is a city with its eye on the future and a place that you can help
> shape.

------
dragonmum
As someone who has actually lived and worked in Shenzhen and Beijing, I'm
surprised by this article. It doesn't reflect the reality I experienced.

"Beijing might be of historical importance for the creative forces often
associated with Silicon Valley"

I note he never explained that sentence. No data was given to further that
statement. Instead he makes points about cheaper engineers and cheap housing
and food.

" it offered us cheap housing and food, a network of experienced mentors that
were happy to take the time to help, steady access to some of the world's
greatest engineering talent at a sixth of the cost of a junior engineer in
Silicon Valley "

He also says: "Beijing seems to attract large numbers of truly driven,
creative and interesting people". Yes, people here are truly driven. But
creative? Nope, I didn't experience that. I won't mention how the drive people
exhibit here is typically negative. In the US, negotiations are rarely zero-
sum, in BJ/SZ it was always Walmart style: are we screwing the
partner/customer/supplier to the max.

"Beijing is a city with its eye on the future and a place that you can help
shape."

The whole of China is controlled by a small (percentage wise) elite. They and
they alone decide the whole future. If you're not part of the future they
determine would benefit "their" China then you're out. If they decide suddenly
that whatever you've built is something they want, and they can get away with
it, they'll take it. Creative people don't thrive here. Ask 100 creative
people in China if they'd like to move to Silicon Valley, and you'll likely
get an 75% migration rate. That's even higher than the percentage of rich
Chinese who want to leave.
[http://blogs.wsj.com/chinarealtime/2014/09/15/almost-half-
of...](http://blogs.wsj.com/chinarealtime/2014/09/15/almost-half-of-wealthy-
chinese-want-to-leave/)

~~~
drzaiusapelord
>I'm surprised by this article.

I really think he's the kind of guy who fetishizes the exotic. Old school
geeks did this with Japanese culture, Japanese media, Japanese women, etc for
decades and it was more than a little embarrassing. Its all vaguely racist or
at least insensitive and has a "grass is greener" feel to it. China, and to a
lesser extent, Korea, are the new Japan for geeky males.

China has a great deal of social problems (many of which are long solved in
the West), but I imagine someone with a pocket full of USD, which go very far
in China, a white face, and an EU password is immune to it all. The suffering
and human rights issues of the locals is just an abstract given to him. Yet
somehow the homeless issue in SF is very concrete to him.

I really think this article shows off a questionable brand of millennial
economic tourism and is more interesting from that perspective.

~~~
nilspihl
Haha yeah we get a lot of those here, but less so than places like Tokyo,
Seoul and Hong Kong. I plead not guilty, for what it is worth, but I
understand if you find that unconvincing. Perhaps I do have some rose-tinted
glasses that make me partial to places that feel like frontiers, but being
excited about the unknown and the future is not the same as being excited
about ninjas and tentacle porn.

~~~
salmon30salmon
The problem is, you are ignoring the very real social and political problems
in China, either because they are hidden from your view or they do not impact
people like you. San Francisco has social problems, but they let their social
problems live on the street, as opposed to jailing them and beating them.

It seems that you prefer a world where social problems, mental illness and
poverty are hidden from your view by an ethereal force. That is fine, you can
live in that pleasant fiction, but don't for a single minute pretend that
beating and jailing the homeless is utopia, or that Beijing is anything other
than that.

~~~
ersii
> a world where social problems, mental illness and poverty are hidden from
> your view by an ethereal force.

To be fair, he did disclaim at the top of the article by mentioning that he's
from Sweden.

It is not like Sweden has solved any of these problems either, it's just quite
well hidden from plain sight - as you mentioned in a more eloquent way.

------
arcticbull
After 6 years in SF, 2 at a big company, 4 at a startup that's not one
anymore, it's time for me to move on also. The exodus section of the article
hit on a lot of the same things that have been bothering me about SF. The
individualism, the disrepair, the pee, the needles, the homeless, the mentally
ill, public transit from the 60s (BART), busses that I routinely out-jog --
and that it's never anyone's problem. And that's just SF, let alone the state
and federal level issues.

I had the chance to apply for a green card (just got PERM certified) but have
decided that now's a good time to take a break from the valley instead. The
biggest feeling of relief is that I can now take a job that isn't my primary
employer (!!), found a company, build things and not face deportation as a
result. It's been 6 years since I last had that opportunity -- and doing it in
the US is at least a year away. Not dealing with US immigration is worth not
having a concrete plan :)

Like the OP I'm also an EU [and Canadian] citizen, so I'm not lacking for
places to go. Beyond those, there are so many countries that actually welcome
people looking to build with open arms.

Like the OP, I'm sure I'll be back someday. For all it's faults, it's still
Silicon Valley.

~~~
Kurtz79
My experience in SV is limited to a few months stay, already a few years ago,
but it's hard for me to conflate San Francisco and Silicon Valley proper (San
Jose, Santa Clara, Sunnyvale, Palo Alto, Mountain View etc...).

Where San Francisco is a proper city, plagued by the many problems you
mention, the actual Valley is basically suburbs, with a majority of spotless
single family homes, lots of strip malls and tiny (but mostly spotless as
well) city centers.

As a European, like you and the OP, I mostly felt out of place in both
environments (less in SF, to be honest), I could picture living there for a
few years at most, but not forever.

~~~
saynsedit
> I could picture living there for a few years at most, but not forever.

Everyone is doing that. It's helping the SF landlords, it's not helping the
homeless.

If more people treated SF as a long-term city to put down roots, it would
probably be in better shape. How you treat a place changes drastically when
you actually own property there.

Instead most people make their money and leave, contributing nothing.

~~~
stale2002
No. The rooted people are the ones causing the problem of homelessness, not
solving it.

Solving the homeless problem is dead simple easy. The solution is to build
more houses. Every apartment that gets built, is 1 less person being
gentrified onto the streets.

The rooted people are the ones preventing developers from building more,
because they don't want competition, and they want their housing prices to
stay high.

Renters, are the ones getting screwed by this, because they have to pay the
high rents that wouldn't exist without the artificially created barriers to
entry.

~~~
saynsedit
You're not talking about rooted people in the same way I am...

I'm talking about homeowners, you're talking about landlords who charge rent.

I'm talking about people who actually live in the homes they own and have to
deal with homelessness in their neighborhood.

You're talking about landlords who own lots of property in SF but go home to
their mansions in Sausalito or Palo Alto.

My point exactly agrees with you. SF needs less landlords and more homeowners.

~~~
stale2002
The home owners are the ones stopping new houses from being built.

Homeowners don't want their property values to go down, and want the city to
be locked in time, never changing and never growing. They are the ones
stopping new houses from being built.

~~~
saynsedit
Are you saying that SF homeowners _want_ homeless people walking their
streets? If their intention is to increase property value, as you say, why
would they want that?

Seems to me like the people who win the most by limiting housing are the
landlords who can collect higher rent through scarce supply.

Long term homeowners probably don't care much about yearly changes in their
homes worth.

~~~
stale2002
SF homeowners want their neighborhood to stay locked in time forever and
pretend nothing will ever change. They want to protect the "character" of the
neighborhood, by preventing all high rises and anything that isn't a single
family townhouse.

They'd probably be fine with more housing being built 'somewhere else' for the
homeless. But ya know, definitely not in THEIR backyard.

Developers (aka landlords) aren't the ones protesting new building being
built. This is because they would love to be able to build more. Even though
they would make less money per apartment, there is so much demand for houses,
that the massive amount of new development would make up for it.

There is only so many landlords out there. Their vote isn't particularly
significant. But there are a LOT of NIMBY homeowners.

~~~
saynsedit
I think you have completed misinterpreted my point to fit your preexisting
bias.

My point is that homelessness severity in any given area is correlated with
renter density.

Whatever homeowners you think are blocking new developments, think about the
homelessness in their specific area. Is it severe?

Think about the areas in SF that have the most severe homelessness, how many
homeowners do you think live in that area?

On the causes of homelessness... I don't think it's due to scarce housing.
Even if there were more housing available, I doubt a homeless person could
start paying for it. Getting out of homelessness is a more complex issue.

------
gbin
The article describes pretty well the shocking reality Europeans discover
moving in San Francisco and honestly I absolutely concur for the most part.

But wait, he glorifies his past alternative life but does feels comfortable in
a place where Internet is openly censored and spied on to track and torture
activists ? Didn't he just say he loves talking about politics ? People don't
get killed by their government for putting Bernie Sanders stickers on their
cars here...

Even this aside, on the business side and as a foreigner I would be very
scared there: from gutter oil to copycats, it feels totally lawless. What's
gonna happen to him if he is successful?

~~~
paradite
> People don't get killed by their government for putting Bernie Sanders
> stickers on their cars here...

That's an extreme exaggeration. I know human rights record in China is not
good, but getting killed for doing minor things like that don't happen.

And I am surprised that you brought up killing because U.S. does not do well
in this area either.

~~~
zeveb
> I know human rights record in China is not good, but getting killed for
> doing minor things like that don't happen.

China harvests organs from people who belong to a rather wacky religion[1].
That's pretty bad, and I think counts as getting killed for something minor.

[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organ_harvesting_from_Falun_Go...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organ_harvesting_from_Falun_Gong_practitioners_in_China)

~~~
paradite
Well that is an much more complicated issue.

First you need to decide whether that religion is illegal or not. That has
been a debated subject for many years.

From the Chinese government's standpoint, the religion is illegal, and the
people practicing it are put into prison.

Then you have to decide if it is ethical and legal to harvest human organs
from prisoners (on death penalty of course).

This again has be debated over many decades.

Bottom line is, you committed a crime by practicing a religion deemed as
illegal in China so that is something not minor.

~~~
stale2002
You don't think that it isn't an outrage that such a law even exists in the
first place?

Yes, it is against the law. The violence against these people is sanctioned by
the government. Thats the whole reason it is horrifying!

It is not a tricky issue. The fact that this is all sponsored and done by the
government makes it even worse!

------
cs702
Reading this, I realized the US -- including Silicon Valley -- has many
commonalities with the Free Software ecosystem.

The US is more like a _messy, disgusting, noisy bazaar_ than a pristine
cathedral:

* Strong disagreement and polarization on a lot of important issues: for example, in the US we can't agree on the role of government; in the Free Software world we can't agree on even a standard desktop interface.

* Constant arguing about the best way forward: for example, in the US, we argue on how best to fix economic issues; in the Free Software world we argue on how best to evolve a really old init system.

* Many important problems are ignored, seemingly forever: for example, in the US, a lot of infrastructure (electric grids, roads, bridges, railways, trains) are of subpar quality; in the Free Software world, many projects of extreme or critical importance are in disrepair and/or ignored (e.g., for years, PGP was maintained by a single developer who was broke).

Anyone who comes to the US expecting things to work "as they are supposed to"
and for everyone to be in happy agreement on important issues is in for
serious disappointment.

Yet, the messy "bazaar" model seems to work... over time. As Winston Churchill
said, "you can always count on Americans to do the right thing -- after
they've tried everything else."[1]

[1]
[http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/w/winstonchu135259....](http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/w/winstonchu135259.html)

~~~
saynsedit
No

~~~
hx87
Could you please elaborate?

~~~
saynsedit
It's a forced comparison. Comparing free software to the US only makes sense
at a superficial level. For every successful comparison there are 10x
contradictions. I could compare literally anything to the US in the same vein.
For example:

The US is a lot like a potato:

* it's lumpy! Both the US and a potato are irregularly shaped!

* it's brownish: the US is a mix ethnically

* it's white on the inside: the US is controlled by mostly white people

* it's high in carbohydrates: the US has a large GDP

etc.

~~~
pop8row9
Please, could you provide an example of any mutually intelligible comparison
which is not forced, and for which there are not 10x contradictions?

~~~
saynsedit
Are you seriously implying that relevant substantive comparisons don't exist?
There are many, for instance:

Comparing the US to free software is like comparing monads to burritos.

------
unixhero
Interesting and engaging writing. I had similar history; harsh winters,
Norwegian summers and access to computers meant staying in with friends
learning every bit about our computer overlords at home and at demo-parties.
At age 14 I was interning at a technical university college doing Linux work.
Eventually I made it to Silicon Valley, all starry eyed. Because of moronic
immigration laws I was never able to try my luck there. The only off-putting
things were real estate prices, and all the schmoozing which in the Nordics we
call lying. Now I am a corporate drone and have accepted this fate. No more
illusions and aspirations of grandeur, only the long hard road awaits. As it
happens it is pretty sweet and I'm happy.

Skål mine nordiske venner.

EDIT: Structure

EDIT2: Pics or it didn't happen!?

Me outside a Hewlett Packard campus building I particularly liked:
[http://i.imgur.com/pWtoVpm.jpg](http://i.imgur.com/pWtoVpm.jpg)

Our product: [http://i.imgur.com/VL1UQVF.jpg](http://i.imgur.com/VL1UQVF.jpg)

Company story [now defunct]:
[http://imgur.com/a/6l1kl](http://imgur.com/a/6l1kl)

[I'll be writing an obituary on it later.]

~~~
tbassetto
After graduating from college, I spent a few months in San Francisco. I was
not looking for a job, and what I saw (same issues describe in the original
article) convinced me that I did not want to work in SF anyway.

After that, I worked for several startups in Paris. Tired of living in France,
I joined a startup in … Oslo :) Unfortunately the startup died, and I joined
Cisco because several years of startups were enough. I do enjoy Norway
actually.

Skål!

~~~
makapuf
as a matter of fact, what did you think of Paris/France ?

~~~
tbassetto
For the record: I am French, but grew up/studied in the countryside and lived
in Paris "only" 3 years, for work, after graduation.

What I liked in Paris:

* access to culture, many theaters, cinemas, events, etc. * huge tech community (tons of meetups) * relatively cheap food and drinks (but I live in one of the most expensive country now, so feel free to disagree)

What I disliked:

* high rent prices * housing market flooded with old and flats (and getting older) * housing price so high that a couple of engineers could not buy anything else than a crappy 40m2 * crazy working hours (with the commute I was often back home only after 8pm), but don't forget that I only worked for early stage startups

------
daemonk
Is this a case of emphasizing aspects of each environment based on some kind
of personal bias?

The article describes a lack of moral compass in Silicon Valley and an
enriching hacker spirit in Beijing.

What about the other way around? If you apply a standard of morality to
Beijing, is it better or worse? If you judge the hacker spirit of Silicon
Valley, is it better or worse? Are you holding Beijing up to less scrutiny
compared to Silicon Valley?

This is a genuine question. I haven't lived in either places, so I really
can't say.

~~~
TorKlingberg
I enjoyed reading the article, and I must assume the author is very good at
Chinese language and culture if can run a startup there.

That said, people seem to find it easier to ignore social issues in a culture
very different from their own. For a European, the problems in SF fit a
familiar pattern and you can pick up a local paper and read all about them. In
an Asian country the social situation is different enough that it doesn't
trigger your moral unease. Also very very few westerners can just pick up a
Chinese newspaper and casually read it. So even ignoring censorship, you are
shielded from the problems and conflicts of locals that you don't directly
meet and talk to.

------
elgabogringo
Sorry, I can't take this post seriously. Some thoughts without trying to get
too political:

\- I guess he was disappointed by Obama? Join the club.

\- "I moved to Silicon Valley" No you didn't, you moved to San Francisco.

\- The Bay Area is one of the most naturally beautiful metropolitan areas in
the world. Beijing is one of the most polluted. You can have it.

\- "I was confused by the sheer amount of narcissistic Ayn Rand followers."
Really? Where are they, I've been here 15 years and have yet to find this
mythic horde

All told, I'm getting really sick of the Euro-lectures-Americans schtick.

~~~
bogomipz
I have to question the perceptions and judgement from anyone that managed to
live in SF and mentions one of the salient characteristics of its citizens is
being an "Ayn Rand follower". Did he mistake the Giants logo for something
else? Ditto for someone who equates San Francisco as a place where political
and religious discussions are to be avoided. Both of these are just bizarre.

~~~
gbin
I think he meant in _companies_.

For example in France, you can openly express your political opinions at lunch
with colleagues. By that, I mean you can totally disagree, yell at each other
on touchy subjects and then resume your work as nothing happened in the
afternoon. That will be the end of it. A political opinion is just that, an
opinion and it is totally fun to argue, disagree bringing new points to the
table etc.

Arguing on something else than a purely professional matter at your workplace
is the last place you want to be here in San Francisco:

First it doesn't fit the local culture of non-confrontation; You'll have
confused Californian eyes staring back at you: "You mean everything is NOT
awesome ?!?"

Then, you cannot offend anybody, even slightly. Unfortunately it is really
easy to do from a French culture where you make points at extremes as
examples, use sarcasms or dark humor. You can be sure they'll be taken at face
value on the receiver end and reported to HR instantly.

------
fitzwatermellow
_What 's the point of innovation if you're not building a better society?_

It may be that the inherent American modes of self-reliance, personal
responsibility and individual liberty create natural frissons with innovators
trying to implement the betterment of society via "liberation technologies."

Whereas Asia, with a deeper cultural affinity for familial duty over
individual desire, and an inherent necessity to rapidly raise standards for
the millions that still live in agrarian lands, would provide more fertile
ground for "sharing economies."

In the near term, it may seem like all the excitement is occurring across the
Pacific. But if we can recall the original mission of the PC Revolution: to
empower and enhance our natural capabilities, that humans with machines are
substantially better equipped at survival and the optimal pursuit of life than
either alone can ever be. We may ultimately stumble into that New Jerusalem
here in the West.

Where "Man is his own star; and the soul that can render an honest and a
perfect man, commands all light, all influence, all fate!"

------
kough
> As a Swede coming to the States, I was disillusioned. I had, as I think many
> young entrepreneurs have, idolized Silicon Valley as a utopian vision of an
> idealistic but well-meaning band of technocrats building the foundations for
> a just and democratic society, but in its place I found vanity, pettiness
> and greed. Not only did the emperor have no clothes, but the naked corpus
> revealed was unappetizing to my Swedish quasi-socialist ideals. Ultimately,
> I felt alone in Silicon Valley... I left.

Yup. Really weird place. Went through something similar and now I'm nearly
certain I'll never go back there.

~~~
digi_owl
I find myself thinking about this when i compare US tech news and European
tech news. More often than not, the US side have some quick buck angle, or
"sugar water" consumption goal. Jump over to Europe and things seems to have
more of a assistance angle.

------
CPLX
"I was confused by the sheer amount of narcissistic Ayn Rand followers. What's
the point of innovation if you're not building a better society?"

Indeed.

~~~
nolepointer
I don't understand this meme. If this were true, SV would not be deep blue.

I don't live in SV, but I'm an admirer of Rand and her ideas. "Narcissist" is
the probably the last word someone would use to describe me.

~~~
CPLX
I agree with you that it's not necessarily a good description of an average
rank and file valley engineer, but there is obviously a large and visible
founder/investor class that has some dubious libertarian-ish views and is
very, very impressed with itself. It's odd that this point is anything but
obvious.

~~~
pop8row9
For people who live as far West as you can be (politically), bordering the
Pacific Ocean, who believe themselves to be at the forefront of a Science
Fiction-esque reality that molds the world, this very-impressed ideology makes
psychological sense.

Serenity, wealth, agency, and a pioneering spirit. These speak to vitality and
placement. Sexual `fitness'... Winners... the psychology writes itself. It
will likely be consistent as long as the four factors I've mentioned hold.

------
mathattack
The report echoes a lot of positives I've heard about Beijing. And some of the
negatives about San Francisco.

I think the author misses some of what's happening in the valley.
Supercomputing smart phones requires deep tech. The AI and pushing of Moore's
law behind these devices requires deep tech. So do autonomous cars.

------
justsaysmthng
That was an interesting read.

I can also subscribe to the image of San Francisco - with homeless and ill
people on the streets - it was what made me decide against moving to Silicon
Valley, although the offer was very attractive.

Beijing I've never visited, but now Nils made me curious - maybe I should take
a trip there someday soon ...

~~~
eitally
Just so you know, SF isn't "Silicon Valley". It's SF. The peninsula is the
valley, and although lots of people live in SF and commute down, lots of
people also live up the east bay and even further south (Morgan Hill, Gilroy,
Santa Cruz, ...). You absolutely don't need to live in SF to work at an SV
company, and in fact, the commute from SF to anywhere south bay is really
unpleasant.

~~~
inestyne
I rented in Milbrae because it was as far as I could get from SF, still be on
the peninsula, and still have access to Bart. Every useful part of SF has a
Bart stop nearby.

Perfect!

------
david927
My favorite quote is this:

 _But let 's be honest - Silicon Valley is often a parody of itself, and it
has lost some of the things that made it great. Where Silicon Valley was once
heavily subsidized to be a place of technical innovation, it is now an
expensive but well-funded hub focused on business execution. There's nothing
inherently wrong with that - good technology deserves good execution, and
investors deserve to make money - but it is hard not to wonder what could have
been. What if Silicon Valley stopped employing some of the world's greatest
minds to make us click ads, and instead served a higher calling?_

~~~
crazy_woo
This is such high fallutin BS. Innovation is driven by demand. Yes - creating
click ads is not as satisfying as [insert sexy innovation from developing
countries here] but it pays the bills. How about we quit telling people what
they should be doing with their lives. Our erstwhile OP is working on data
problems - not exactly nobel peace prize winning stuff. The hypocrisy is
astounding...

~~~
david927
Don't take it personally; he's not saying you're wrong to make a living. He
clearly says he understands that the companies of Silicon Valley want to make
money -- there's no judgement about that.

But the author is also clear about the distinction: there's technical
innovation, planting seeds, and business execution, harvesting the fruit.
Planting seeds is expensive but you get paid back (hopefully) when it bears
fruit. Xerox PARC created technical innovation, and Apple and Microsoft made
billions harvesting its fruit.

The author is simply bringing up what others, like Alan Kay of PARC, bring up
regularly: that we are running out of fruit and no one is working on investing
in planting trees. Silicon Valley of the 70's was not about anything demand-
driven. True innovation is too far ahead that people don't know yet that they
will want it. Silicon Valley at that time made true technical innovation.
Since then it's become all about business execution of making money off of
that innovation, and yes that's very demand-driven. Again, there is nothing
wrong with that. But at the same time, you should be able to understand if he
(and others) might be disappointed by that turn.

------
tomkinstinch
To those operating in Beijing: is the language a significant barrier? Can you
get by as an English speaker?

If you've leaned enough Mandarin to be functional, how long did it take you?

~~~
dangrover
I lived in Guangzhou for a couple years, recently moved back to the valley.
Passed 5/6 levels of language certification, was enough to communicate with
co-workers and deal with my projects and get around.

The biggest obstacle I found was that often my ability to communicate with
someone had less to do with my level and more with the person's preconceptions
of "foreigners". So there would be some people where I would speak Chinese and
they'd have a stunned "Whoah, a talking giraffe!" reaction, and with others it
was totally normal and fluid.

The concept of "internationalization" as it exists there is "more people
should learn English to communicate with the outsiders", not the sort of
melting pot ideal in the US.

Chinese do not distinguish between race, nationality, and language, they are
all one thing. It is for some reason inconceivable to 99% of people that any
(white-skinned) foreigner could learn Chinese, even though most of us do.
Whereas it's a real head-scratcher for them if, for instance, an American of
Chinese ethnicity who grew up only with English came to visit and didn't
magically know the language.

There were many situations where I found myself excluded from things or where
people refused to communicate with me directly at all about things that
concern me, which may be as much language as cultural.

So I'd say learning the language is a good investment if you spend any period
of time there, but being of non-Asian ethnicity will be a giant road-block to
any real sense of integration, in spite of overcoming the language issues.

------
6stringmerc
I think on the author's micro level of China, his perspective is perfectly
reasonable. He sees what he sees.

Although, I do find it strange that for his talk of "Don't speak of religion
and politics" being taboo in SV doesn't apply in China? I'd almost think the
stakes are higher. In the US, one might lose some friends, but in China, one
might lose the rest of their life.

On a macro level, I'm skeptical of China from a cultural perspective.

------
throw2016
I agree with a lot of what he says but can also see that its mostly non
americans who will see his perspective on the soullessness of silicon valley.

Americans tend to get defensive and start listing out flaws in other places
the moment the focus is put on them.

I think american exceptionalism and individualism has long made the concept of
a caring society or building a better society irrelevant. Nobody cares about
this beyond posturing.

As long as the economic cycle can sustain growth it will be hunky dory but the
moment things go wrong, the everyone for themselves frontier type economy can
quickly unravel. You can already see the pretentions about human rights,
freedom, liberalism, have long dissipated. The only thing that matters is
making money and seen to be successful.

The new world was based on a culture of plunder but at some point the
population must stop and stabilize to build internal bonds. Building a
genuinely caring society will by definition come at cost of individualism and
economics.

Most countries and people have thousands of years of history and culture and
simply talking of freedom, democracy and human rights divorced from their
context is completely insincere and irresponsbile. Democracy and human rights
in the west was a slow steady evolution.

China is more than 1 billion people, mess up the transition even slightly
ignoring history and our own slow evolution and you are looking at a scale of
human suffering not seen before, can anyone really be casual about issues like
this. The sad reality is no one cares for these people beyond their own
countries and human rights is just another tactic to beat others with.

There are tons of problems in the US at the moment, starting with the politics
that is destroying millions of lives in the middle east and creating a
security surveillance state at home. Nearly all of the things that would be
unthinkable just a decade ago from a western democracy have been confirmed and
yet have met with little outrage and negligible civic reaction, which confirms
the indifference to these values beyond posturing and this should be
disconcerting for all.

------
Fuxy
Very enthusiastic and passionate writing but I can't help the feeling that
Beijing is viewed with a measure of rose coloured glasses.

I'm not saying it's not what the author considers it to be it may well be a
great place for him but is it really as great for everyone there?

I've never been there so I can't say but from what I have heard from various
source including a very sarcastic you-tube new show[1] I'm not a fan China
regardless of how welcoming it may be.

[1]
[https://www.youtube.com/user/NTDChinaUncensored/videos](https://www.youtube.com/user/NTDChinaUncensored/videos)

------
rpgmaker
_" But let's be honest - Silicon Valley is often a parody of itself, and it
has lost some of the things that made it great. Where Silicon Valley was once
heavily subsidized to be a place of technical innovation, it is now an
expensive but well-funded hub focused on business execution."_

I wonder how different can Beijing really be in this regard. It sure sounds
like it's more gritty but I doubt everyone there has more high minded ideals
than your usual SV sort.

------
HillaryBriss
I was surprised to read this:

 _I had, as I think many young entrepreneurs have, idolized Silicon Valley as
a utopian vision of an idealistic but well-meaning band of technocrats
building the foundations for a just and democratic society ..._

This is isn't on my personal list of what SV is or might be.

What could possibly be giving anyone this impression of SV?

~~~
GFischer
All the "we're going to change the world" startups?

[https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/changing-world-silicon-
valley...](https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/changing-world-silicon-valley-style-
reid-hoffman)

Reid Hoffman (LinkedIn founder): _In Silicon Valley few entrepreneurs and
technologists dream of changing the zip code, or even the state. Here, the
goal is to change the world "_

[http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2013/05/27/change-the-
worl...](http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2013/05/27/change-the-world)

 _The phrase “change the world” is tossed around Silicon Valley conversations
and business plans as freely as talk of “early-stage investing” and “beta
tests.”_

 _ad for the University of San Francisco that I spotted on a public bus
shelter south of Market Street: “Become wildly successful without becoming a
jerk no one likes. Change the world from here.”_

[https://medium.com/the-mission/silicon-valley-has-a-
problem-...](https://medium.com/the-mission/silicon-valley-has-a-problem-
problem-b34437a57e99#.4q24ad6cu)

[https://books.google.com.uy/books?id=eK52augjU98C&pg=PA97&lp...](https://books.google.com.uy/books?id=eK52augjU98C&pg=PA97&lpg=PA97&dq=change+the+world+silicon+valley&source=bl&ots=1EFW_pmLB-&sig=16KlLCz2Rytnvaw6BYVRY97nF08&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjZ9dOZm6bOAhUK02MKHZbGDz04ChDoAQggMAE#v=onepage&q=change%20the%20world%20silicon%20valley&f=false)

... and many, many more.

It paint Silicon Valley as an utopian, idealistic band of technocrats wanting
to change the world (which can be interpreted as building a just society,
might be a stretch). I'm in Uruguay (South America), and that's very
definitely the perception I have (I haven't been to the U.S.)

------
mombul
It feels like the author reduces Silicon Valley to SF. What he was idolizing
exists in Palo Alto or Mountain View. Redwood City also has that "trouble-free
little city ran by geniuses" feel to it. Downtown SF is another story and
doesn't show that shiny techs-wanna-save-the-world vibe.

------
bogomipz
This whole post is very self-aggrandizing and naive, to the point of
amusement.

"Far from the expected glass towers of a technological utopia, what I found
was a surprisingly run down city that reminded me of traveling in Eastern
Europe."

Why would you expect that? A cursory bit of online research would have
informed you otherwise. For such a self-professed online junkie, this strikes
me as odd.

"I was told not to discuss religion and politics, which is really all we talk
about in Sweden, and I was confused by the sheer amount of narcissistic Ayn
Rand followers."

What?! Told by who? SF is and has historically been one of the most
politically vocal places in the US! Ayn Rand followers? What? I'm sorry but
this is just laughable. What is an Ayn Rand follower? Really, was Market St
filled with people clutching well-worn copies of "The Fountainhead." Total
nonsense.

"Beijing was dirty, gritty, and wild .."

Beijing is actually one of the most orderly cities I've ever been to. One of
the safest as well. The only grit is the air pollution.

"Beijing was an insane mix of history and futurism"

Beijing is actually pretty intent on systematically erasing its architectural
history. There are very few hutongs(traditional neighborhoods) left in
Beijing. Most of them were destroyed prior to the Olympics. Also for every one
Rem Koolhaus designed glass towers there are 10K nondescript glum tower tower
blocks, spreading outward from the ciy to the hinterland.

Beijing has some of the worst air pollution on the planet, people regularly
wear respirators outside on bad days, it also has some of the worst traffic on
the planet, these go hand in hand of course. The future is in moving away from
that model of everyone should own a car despite their being viable
alternatives(Beijing has a fantastic subway system.)

"I fell in love with Beijing before I had even stepped out of the taxi from
the airport."

I don't even understand how this would be possible, that drive recently(2
months ago) took me an hour and 45 minutes to get from the airport to the ring
road and there is nothing interesting along that route. The drive from SFO
into the city is actually far more interesting by comparison.

~~~
arcticbull
I think you missed the point.

~~~
bogomipz
What was the point then?

~~~
arcticbull
My take on it was:

Silicon Valley is viewed from the outside -- especially outside the US -- as a
mecca for technology, talent, opportunity (and it is, IMO). People tend to
assume that also extends to the society in which it exists. That such huge
wealth would mean clean streets, social services, public transport and a sense
of community around it. That a rising tide floats all boats. Think oil money
in Norway. If it's something you've looked to as your goal it's easy to ignore
some negative things that you may find about SF online. And whether a quick
Google search would have informed you or not that doesn't change the reality
on the ground.

Re: Ayn Rand. I took that to mean companies are being built today not because
they want to work towards a better world, a better future for everyone, but
rather for money alone. There's a lot of people in the bay area (elsewhere
too) build businesses to make money and not because there's something they
truly want to see in the world. In SF (and SV) on the one hand the messaging
to the world has always been "LETS CHANGE THE WORLD" \-- though many times
it's followed up with "BY BUILDING A SOCIAL NETWORK FOR CATS WHO NEED PIZZA
IMMEDIATELY." That can be very disillusioning for someone who moves in.

Re: China: My take was that he was trying to illustrate a different mentality.
SF is dead set of maintaining the present. On the one hand it complains about
the lack of affordable housing and on the other, it won't allow new (tall)
buildings. Compare to the 60s. Could you imagine Sutro Tower being approved
under today's midset? (You want to build a 1000' TV tower visible from all
over town?! LOL). It's barely possible to get cell towers approved. How many
years do you think a proposal to build that crazy awesome Chinese elevated bus
would take? I mean -- BART doesn't even go to San Jose. High speed rail?

I think his point was that Beijing has its gaze set on the future where SF has
it set on the present, and that sounds like a lot of your complaints too (not
paying as much attention as you'd like the past and present in the process --
I can't judge the validity as I've not been yet). The article felt like his
positive take on Beijing was that there, they want to build the future, and in
SF, they want to keep the present as long as they can possibly hold onto it
regardless of cost.

Hope that helps!

IMO: Your response feels like you're just trying to win an argument for the
sake of winning an argument, without trying to understand what's being said.

~~~
bogomipz
I'm not trying to win anything. The author's observations are wildly
inaccurate and this matters because he using these observations to illustrate
a contrast.

------
Joof
I can certainly relate to having grown up on the internet (I've said it myself
before). It's sort of sad to see where I grew up become more of a marketplace
than social center.

------
grobaru
1) pollution 2) oppressive government 3) language barrier 4) too many people
5) twisted ideas of morality (not respecting IP)

Well...unless all you care about is $$$.

~~~
goodplay
Morality does not make sense in the absence of common principles. I personally
consider IP to be morally deplorable because it encourages rent-seeking;
companies can stop innovating and use law to thwart competitors.

I bet the lack of IP is what will give china and other countries the edge in
the long run.

~~~
big_youth
China uses IP laws to their advantage all the time, here is a story where
apple lost the case to a small phone company. The article goes on to say
"Legitimate lawsuits are on the rise as Chinese companies build up their
intellectual property through research and development".

[http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-06-20/apple-s-
lo...](http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-06-20/apple-s-loss-in-
chinese-patent-fight-seen-emboldening-rivals)

------
myrloc
As a student in the US who wants to enter Beijing tech after school, where do
I start? What are some things to know before making my way over there?

~~~
50CNT
Speaking Chinese helps. You can get by with just English and rudimentary
Chinese, but you're unlikely to make friends in tech.

If you can do an exchange semester at one of the Universities here (Tsinghua,
PKU, BIT), do it. Doing a Chinese course at BCLU will also get you a student
visa. Stay out of Wudaokou for the most part, much as I love the place, you'll
just be insulated in the expat circle. Same goes for Sanlitun. Don't party
with the BCLU kids too much.

Head over to Zhonguancun, there's this street called Innoway, you can hang out
at Garage Cafe or something and get to know some Chinese tech people, practice
some Chinese.

The really talkactive people you meet are nice people, but they're usually a
bit full of shit. Take the things they say with a grain of salt. Good practice
talking about technology in Chinese though.

Get Wechat. You need Wechat. There's a group called Beijing.py on there, they
do tech meetups, which might be your beer (they also happen at Great Leap
Brewery at lot, so there'll be actual beer). Get a Chinese bank account too,
and a Chinese phone number.

You can always teach English. If you teach at a school, it's about 200RMB/hour
part-time. You can do this on a dodgy visa.

You can rent a room at about 1500RMB/month in the Haidian area, where all the
Universities and tech companies are. You can live off 2000-3000 RMB a month if
you're willing to eat the cheap Chinese food. Bring Immodium.

There is a new regulation that allows people on student visas or with a
University degree to work or found a tech company in the Haidian area. It came
into effect this March. Costs about 6000RMB in registration costs.

Be aware of the air pollution, you might want to get a home filter for it, and
wear a filter mask outside. They cost about 20RMB each and last 2-3 days. Get
a smog alert app, but after a while you can tell PPM levels from the sky. Blue
is 100odd, grayish brown is 200-300, if it looks like Silent Hill you're up in
the nice 500s.

Winter is hellish, Summer is hellish. You get strong, cold winds during
December, and Beijing turns into a humid baking pan in the Summer months.
Heating is centrally controlled, and usually turns on 15 days after it gets
really cold. So make sure where you live has an AC.

Traffic is hell, subway is cuddly, but it will get you where you need to be.
Chinese have an interesting idea of what crossing the street looks like. When
in doubt, walk over with a Chinese person standing between you and direction
cars are approaching in.

If haggling is your thing, they're charging you 10x markup. If you're prepared
to haggle for 4 hours, you might get the actual price. If not, order off
taobao or jingdong instead. For taobao, if its tmall its legit, if its regular
taobao look at the ratings and number of transactions.

Get a VPN before you arrive. AFAIK Viper is the preferred choice, and Astrill
the most commonly used one. Their websites are blocked in China.

Don't do drugs. If they catch you, you're looking at being barred from the
country for 10 years. They're not even good drugs either.

Be wary of cheap foreign liquor. Assume it was made in a bathtub. If you want
to get really really drunk, buy cheap Baijiu at 7/11(12RMB for a .33 bottle)
and chase it with Milk-tea (5RMB/bottle) to cut the burn. You won't remember
the evening. Don't carry drugs on you when you do that. cf previous point.

Don't drink the tap water. If you must drink the tap water, boil it first.
Otherwise, have immodium at the ready.

Laobeijing (Old Beijingers) have their own complex social customs. If you pour
tea, you're supposed to hold the jug at the bottom if you're pouring for
someone older, at the spout for someone your age, and at the top if you're
pouring for someone younger. If you're being poured tea, you are supposed to
tap both index fingers on the table. And that's just one thing. If you master
the art, they'll appreciate it, but still look down on you for being a
foreigner. They look down on Chinese migrants too though, so don't feel too
bad about that.

Cabs are cheap and plenty, but Didi is cheaper. Don't get black cabs, they'll
rip you off. When hailing a cab, stand at the side of the road, look at the
direction of traffic, hold out your arm, and make a motion as if you're
tapping a small child on the head. Airport cab ride is about 150RMB to
Haidian. Airport express is about 20RMB, then you need to switch to the
regular subway, which is another 3-6RMB.

Carry toilet paper on you if you're moving around. Toilets have about a 30%
chance of providing toilet paper. Most toilets are squat toilets, though
foreigner facing businesses may have sit down toilets. Stand on the sides and
squat down backwards.

Don't withdraw large sums from ATMs, go to the bank counter for that. ATMs
don't always check carefully for fake notes, and may recirculate them. I know
of people who withdrew 20 100RMB notes and had 3 fakes in them.

Most places will accept WeChat and Alipay. This goes for small ruddy places
too, they'll usually get you to send it to their smartphone. Do carry cash
though in case they don't.

Well, this is getting pretty long.

~~~
iamcreasy
> I know of people who withdrew 20 100RMB notes and had 3 fakes in them.

Can't you just put the money back in ATM and then go to a bank counter to
recollect it?

~~~
50CNT
Well, yeah, but that'd be recirculating counterfeit currency. Also you might
not realize that the bills were fake, and find out later in a store or
something.

------
BatFastard
If you want the right to always have a job, go to Beijing. If you crave the
possibility of creating something disruptive from scratch, go to SF.

~~~
jernfrost
You mean disruptive like SnapChat and Instagram? Sorry but too much Silicon
Valley "innovation" is of no importance to the world.

------
jernfrost
While I have not had the same experience I recognize much of the same
emotional responses. As a Norwegian I also had starry eyed grand delusions
about America. A country at the center of innovation, with skylines made of
glass high-rises. As a tourist in New York I maintained that illusion.

Only when I moved to the US and got to deal with American society and American
in an everyday manner did I get a needed reality check. A lot of people live
materialistically very good lives in America. But the poverty and social
problems so visible even in relatively small towns in America is hard for many
Scandinavians to accept.

And has the author mentions, it is perhaps not the poverty and social problems
themselves but people's attitudes towards them which are most off-putting.
While America offers many opportunities for talented people both in terms of
jobs you can have, places and climates you can live I find it hard to put in
my hard work into a society which has values so opposed to my own. There is
this social darwinistic streak. Nobody seems to have any hope of belief that
these sorts of problems can be solved. Problem solving seems to simply be
about building a wall against the stuff you don't like and hide in your own
gated community.

It is also bizarre for a Scandinavian to come to the center of tech innovation
and see so little usage of technology in everyday life and in the public
sector. Frankly America seems extremely backwards when it comes to actually
implementing technology in society. We are used to paying pizza on the door
with a card reader, fill out taxes and pay them online or through an SMS
message. Tax info is automatically collected and filled out so you only need
to verify it. Many super markets use LCD displays to update prices across the
aisles and people frequently do self checkouts. While things like certainly
exists in pockets in the US, it is surprisingly common how manual many tasks
are done, and how much paperwork is involved in both private and public
sector. Visit a hospital in the US and you have to fill in all sorts of
papers. Need a subscription, more papers. And then they got to count the
pills. In Norway subscriptions are sent electronically from your doctor to all
pharmacies. I can request a new prescription from an iOS app.

I suspect a lot of this comes down to that there is no interest in America to
improve society as such. One only things in terms of business which can make
money and not in terms of how can government be modernized and work better
towards it citizens. But in America there is zero faith in government. However
that becomes a self fulfilling prophecy. How can you expect quality government
if you have already decided government is inherently bad?

I wish it was different because I really want to live in the US. I hate
Norwegian darkness and climate. I also enjoy how much more sociable Americans
are. But values of American society is very hard to accept or stay indifferent
to.

------
ting_bu_dung
lots of China propaganda pieces today on hacker news :) let's break down this
particular piece. main points the author raised in order to support Beijing is
more innotative than SV were:

a.) less homeless/mentally unstable (what do you think an Chinese
authoritarian government does to these people in Beijing, the capital?)

b.) no discussion of religion or politics in SF. tons of ayn rand followers
(did he really go to sf?)

c.) lots of constructions in Beijing (lots of them empty, badly built, debt
financed)

d.) cheap stuff

e.) creative people (what innovations came out of beijing?)

f.) silicon valley is now just focused on business execution (again, what
innovations came out of beijing?)

no mention of Bejing's

a.) crippling internet censorship. (you couldn't hit any foreign websites
regularly unless via VPN, and even that fails frequently)

b.) pollution

c.) corruption

d.) unease towards foreigners

e.) 2-3 hour traffic jams

f.) language barrier

~~~
heidar
> e.) creative people (what innovations came out of beijing?)

I find fintech in China particularly interesting. Alipay and all the services
around it are eons ahead of anything we have in the west.

------
bertiewhykovich
This dude talks at great length about the homeless problem in San Francisco
and makes only the most token of nods towards the fact that China has profound
social problems.

The Chinese government is an oligarchic, nepotistic cesspool that violates
human rights on a massive scale with absolute impunity: the author's
extensively elaborated moral outrage about the presence of homelessness in San
Francisco juxtaposes absurdly with his starry-eyed gloss over the sickening
injustices of the Communist Party.

I'd rather have a government that fails to effectively address homelessness
than a government that blithely sells executed prisoners to Western roadshows.
[1]

[1]
[http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/germany/145...](http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/germany/1452542/Body-
Worlds-impresario-used-corpses-of-executed-prisoners-for-exhibition.html)

------
stevenwiles
People like this are always motivated by the same thing - money and fame.

They like to hide it behind this whole "being a part of an exciting future"
persona but its all a marketing gimmick to help them achieve their true goal -
being rich and famous.

------
jbb555
" teaching myself how to pirate and use complicated software was just par for
the course."

So an article by a self confessed criminal. I didn't read past that.

~~~
cvik
Why do you assume this was illegal in Sweden in the late nineties? In Sweden,
downloading of IP was illegalized 2005-06-01. Before that it was only illegal
to spread digital IP...

~~~
jernfrost
Didn't you know, American laws are universal. It is by American laws we judge
the acts of all the being in this universe.

------
BigDaddyD
Does anyone else find it ironic that he came to America because he bought into
a false promise from a liberal and then was disappointed to find that the very
liberal California was depressing. Sounds like he has an issue with the US
politically. Maybe go to a different part of the country.

~~~
jernfrost
I lived in the conservative part of America, but I've also visited so called
liberal cities. Believe me to Nordic like myself nothing in America is
liberal. It is first and foremost a conservative society from my perspective.
Facebook is supposed to promote liberal values and yet if you post a painting
of a nude women or breastfeeding you immediately get into trouble. It betrays
the religious conservative mindset dominating America.

Actually it is hard to talk about this with an America because you got your
labels all wrong. You label things liberal and conservative in ways nobody
else does which confuse more than clarifies.

The economic policy by e.g. the republican party is primarily liberal. Their
social policies are conservative. The democrats are generally socially liberal
and somewhat less liberal in economic policy. But neither follows what we
normally associate in the rest of the world with left wing economic policy.
That would be labeled socialist or social democratic.

~~~
BigDaddyD
I didn't think my terminology was confusing. In fact, just using the context
you were able to figure out I was talking about America and therefor meant the
American meaning of those words.

Also, my labels aren't "wrong" they are different. For example, I wouldn't
call your label of conservative wrong but would just say European
conservative.

