

Not Everyone has to go to College - mikekarnj
http://blog.skillshare.com/post/5100283758/lets-start-a-learning-revolution

======
CodeMage
I agree with you on a lot of points, especially the following two:

1\. College doesn't guarantee success.

2\. Not everyone should go to college.

But here's where we diverge: I believe we'll never get to the point where
everyone will "succeed". We all want our kids to succeed, but our definition
of success is usually based on things like "have a high-paying job", "be
important", "be powerful" or "be famous". This is because we want our kids to
be happy and we come up with cookie-cutter solutions for happiness: "have a
high-paying job" supplants "not have to have headaches about money", "be
important", "be powerful" and "be famous" supplant "be harder to oppress by
society or more powerful people".

To me, that seems to be a more fundamental problem than the problem of
education and one a lot harder to solve. Disclaimer: Please don't take this as
a criticism; on the contrary, when you have two important problems and you can
see the solution to the one that's easier, it's a lot better to try to solve
it than to sit down and lament the fact that you can't solve the harder one.

That said, I believe that we should define "success" differently for our kids.
I believe we should give them a different goal: happiness. Believe it or not,
you don't have to achieve greatness to be happy. As long as you can enjoy your
work, your family and your life in general, you can be happy, without Leaving
Your Footprints In The Sands Of History.

That doesn't mean we shouldn't teach our kids to strive to achieve as much as
they can. It just means that we should try to encourage them to look for their
own path to happiness. It shouldn't matter if theirs doesn't happen to pass
through fame, power, influence or riches, as long as it leads them to
happiness.

~~~
adrianN
While I agree that striving for happiness is a totally acceptable goal in
live, I think it's a bit egoistic. I would not teach my children to seek power
or riches, but to work to "better themselves and the rest of humanity". If the
can't leave their own footprints, they can at least try to help others in
doing that.

I want humans to achieve cool things -- build AIs, end disease and death, and
settle on other planets. If everybody sought their own happiness I fear that
progress would be much slower.

~~~
CodeMage
Although your sentiment is laudable, you seem to confuse goals and values. A
goal is something to achieve, while values are what you teach your children to
shape their struggle to achieve their goals.

Like I said in my comment, I don't mean to imply we shouldn't teach our kids
to strive for great achievements. There's nothing to say they can't be happy
striving to "better themselves and the rest of humanity"; nor is there
anything to say that seeking happiness precludes bettering yourself and
others.

Bear in mind that I'm talking about happiness, rather than gratification. I'm
not proposing to teach our kids to be hedonists. Just because I'm not content
or satisfied all the time, doesn't mean I'm not happy. To quote Frank
Herbert's "Children of Dune":

 _"Tell me, Namri, are you content?"

"No." The words came out flat, spontaneous rejection.

"Then do you blaspheme?"

"Of course not!"

"But you aren't contented. You see, Gurney? Namri proves it to us. Every
question, every problem doesn't have a single correct answer."_

------
mikle
First a bit of criticism - I don't like this way of presenting. 193 slides?
Each with one sentence? This is borderline maddening and if this wasn't a
topic I was interested in I wouldn't have made it even 30 slides in. A tl:dr
would just tell you to skip to slide 160.

Not only that but the parts about Skillshare itself are so disguised that I
still don't have a firm grasp of why should I go there and what can I do there
besides "learn" (I can just google a cupcake recipe, why should I learn
through you?).

Now about the content itself - as someone from outside of the US, I'm amazed
and frightened at this phenomenon. There were similar threads on reddit with
people with over 200,000$ of debt. This is irrational and borderline
irresponsible to owe someone so much money. I think education should be
reconsidered and a better method tried. With the internet and the wealth of
information on it, I find it hard to believe we can't optimize and improve
upon the current education structures.

Edit: After exploring the site, I think I really like it. I'd probably like it
more if I lived in NY, where most of the classes take place :) I think this
idea is great and worth expanding,

I think, since your site is fairly young, it will benefit a user voice page,
since I can think of tonnes of things I'd like to see there.

~~~
mikekarnj
I actually presented all 193 slides in less than 15 minutes. The format was a
huge hit with the audience.

~~~
sebkomianos
I liked every single of my clicks.

------
exi
Great read. I'd like to say that I've been okay with my decision to drop out
of college. Yet several years later all I've found is that 98% of companies
now want a BA just to answer phones. A number of friends that I went to school
with cruised their way through with C averages. I would be amazed when they'd
ask me to read some of their senior level work and it would have the spelling
mistakes of a 2nd grader. They spent most of their time at parties while being
supported financially by their parents. Meanwhile I was attending the funeral
of mine and facing homelessness, so dropping out was what was right for me at
the time.

Now I'm the idiot for not having a degree, while those same guys I knew all
have fantastic jobs. I think that many companies just use degree requirements
as resume filtering tools and nothing more. It doesn't seem to matter that you
can't write or that you learned nothing.

~~~
rm445
That's harsh, and I hope things work out for you, but there is another thing
going on here - a constant treadmill of qualifications is becoming the norm in
many industries. You _might_ be doing your career harm if you isolate yourself
from the main stream of academic qualifications that makes up that treadmill.

Those friends who cruised through school and have good careers, did they
actually stop at a BA? Or do they have, say, accountancy qualifications?
Masters degrees gained while working? Memberships of professional
institutions, working towards being chartered in their profession?

Obviously I don't know the answer to that, and it varies a lot between
industries - many programmers here on HN get by fine with talent and
experience, and don't feel pushed to gain extra qualifications. But depending
what you do, qualifications can open doors to other qualifications and over a
long career it might make quite a bit of difference.

------
m0th87
Not everybody _does_ go to college; in fact, less than a third of Americans
do.

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Educational_attainment_in_the_U...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Educational_attainment_in_the_United_States)

~~~
gemenon
The percent of Americans age 25+ who attended college (some college) is 55.6%,
so it is clear we are seeing well over half of Americans attend college if you
include those under 25.

------
bryanwb
to do well economically in the modern world, whether as an auto mechanic,
computer engineer, reporter, nurse, etc. is: 1) solid writing skills,
preferably in English 2) strong reading comprehension, preferably in English
3) Basic grasp of math up through and including statistics

so while you don't need college/university you absolutely need 1-3. I picked
up #1 in university because i went to a lousy, impoverished high school. I
mostly taught myself #2 and #3. A new learning community focused on narrow
skill acquisition won't help students acquire 1-3.

Investing in basic education will fix these problems, both investing in
teachers and in pushing kids to just _fucking study_ and take learning
seriously.

This article is the "High Cost of Low Teacher Salaries"
[http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/01/opinion/01eggers.html?_r=1...](http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/01/opinion/01eggers.html?_r=1&src=me&ref=general)
is much more relevant in my opinion.

best of luck w/ skillshare but please don't think it will teach calculus to
people who can't add.

While mikekarnj has some interesting points about education and the obvious
higher ed bubble, he is apparently unaware of education concept of
"scaffolding" <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instructional_scaffolding>

------
JTCJr
The freakenomics podcast guys answered a listeners question regarding 'does
college still matter?'

Worth checking out the answer just for the unambiguous the answer is. (Answer
starts at 3:00)

[http://freakonomicsradio.com/does-college-still-matter-
and-o...](http://freakonomicsradio.com/does-college-still-matter-and-other-
freaky-questions-answered.html)

[Spoiler alert: the answer is 'hell yes' (paraphrased).]

~~~
edderly
Interesting to listen to that. Though to be fair the question was whether
college was no longer a factor or a disadvantage to gaining employment.

You can't argue with the global statement over time college education results
in a greater income on average. However, what was pointed out in the OP was
how balanced is the average?

Also I thought Levitt's point about comparing Vietnam draft high number
lottery 'winners' not going to college versus lower number lottery winners
attending college was weak simply because it was _40_ years ago.

------
dexterchief
I have been seeing quite a few posts in this vein on HN and they really
disturb me. While I think its clear to everyone that there are problems with
the education system, I have a real problem with encouraging people to drop
out of, or not attend higher education. Questioning the value of your
education is one of the many privileges an education affords you.

The experience we have as IT people is really deeply skewed. The IT industry
really barely existed ~25 years ago. Saying that education doesn't matter
because a handful of high-school/college/university dropouts made it big
riding the coattails of an enormous technological change is really misguided.
We get away without credentials here and there simply because so much of this
stuff is so new. This is a quirk of this particular moment in time. It won't
last. Once that change settles down, degrees will be required for just about
every IT job. Hell, that's getting to be the case already.

This statistic about 17 million Americans having degrees in jobs that don't
require them has appeared a few times in various articles. It's said as though
the people went to school _intending_ to be an overqualified waiter. If that
were the case, I would agree that is a terrible waste. With years of
aggressive outsourcing, the effective destruction of the manufacturing sector
behind us, and a recession all around us, can we really accept that statistic
just as it is offered to us?

If student loans have just surpassed credit card debt I agree that is a
problem. But if education is to expensive then do something about the cost of
education. Don't go telling people to drop out and have their world view
shaped by something as meagre as a job or a bit of travel. The only way to
develop your brain is to have someone push you to think. Hard. Yes there are
examples of this happening outside school but not as many as you think.

Really I think uneducated people are social equivalent of infected PC's on a
network; they make things bad for everyone. More education, not less is
crucial if we are going to make any progress as a society.

Just my two cents.

~~~
sebkomianos
> Really I think uneducated people are social equivalent of infected PC's on a
> network; they make things bad for everyone. More education, not less is
> crucial if we are going to make any progress as a society.

But the question is, do we get an education from colleges that we wouldn't be
able to get without them?

------
Maro
I agree with most of what you said. I also like the idea of Skillshare.

But, watching the slides, jumping from "you don't have to go to college" to
Skillshare gave me the impression (even though the slides didn't say) that
Skillshare is a substitute for a college education, which it clearly is not.
Based on the current courses, it's more like a "social tradeschool". I'm not
saying you are misleading, but the presentation may be.

------
matt1
I was really blown away by the quality of the two minute video at the bottom
of the post. Anybody have an idea about how much a video of that caliber
costs?

------
patrickgzill
I have a client, older guy, with 3 children - 2 older boys, youngest, a
daughter is about 19 yo.

The 2 older boys both have degrees, the youngest dropped out despite good
grades (chosen degree: English major) saying it wasn't what she wanted to do -
and got a job at Panera Bread, where she is rather quickly moving from cashier
to training.

The old guy is really stressed about it, to him and his generation, if you
don't have a degree, you have no real future.

Given that the daughter is doing well, has essentially zero debt, is not
addicted to anything, and enjoying her job and getting promoted--in contrast
to many who are having trouble landing any kind of job; well, I am trying to
nicely tell him not to worry so much.

------
flooser
This post is going to be downvoted. This is not a personal attack.

The basic question is, why the hell don't you learn for the sake of learning.
I did that. Promise. I have an inability to study for grades. So fine, I am
doing ok. I took classes, I really enjoyed them (though I struggled a lot),
and I learnt a lot. I love school - its the best way to learn things in a
structured way, and meet really crazy smart people doing that.

I'll be honest though, I went to pretty selective school - it took me a while
to get in (but I did) and it was really an awesome experience. M.I.T. was an
especially great experience.

But of course, you are entitled to your opinion, and so am I.

------
gavanwoolery
I wrote about this topic here: [http://altdevblogaday.org/2011/04/14/the-
difference-between-...](http://altdevblogaday.org/2011/04/14/the-difference-
between-a-degree-and-an-education/)

I think that it boils down to more than just sharing skill sets, but that is
certainly a good start. I argue that primarily, people have to become
autodidacts and learn from the wealth of free information that can be found on
the internet and elsewhere.

------
TheRevoltingX
I never even finished High School, and now I earn more/do less than my college
degree holding co-workers. I have the advantage of being a programmer though,
where skill is at least measurable to some degree and college education isn't
as important.

It's actually taboo, but we now assume that someone who graduated from college
probably sucks but is willing to do boring tasks.

~~~
dedward
I'm curious to know your thoughts on what your feelings are on your own
children's educations. Will you advise them to drop out of highschool and
start working? Are you expecting them to go to university?

~~~
TheRevoltingX
Well, I'd have to admit that not every kid excels at something, or is special,
including my own. That decision seems like it would need to happen as the
child is growing up. If they exhibit signs of being fast learners where the
education system is actually slowing them down. Then yes, I'd probably advise
them not to go. Or if they want to go, to try their best to get at a top-tier
school (i.e. MIT.) Certainly things like Devry and Phoneix university I would
consider a joke.

However, if they exhibit signs of being average then I would push them to get
a degree. Because at least they'll know how to follow some sort of procedure
and get a decent job without really needing to excel beyond their peers.

In reality though, I'm sure it won't be such a black and white problem.

~~~
flooser
eg. instead of i.e., and yes, I did go to M.I.T.

------
supervillain
There's an essay called "College Uneducation" by Jorge Bocobo, which tackles
about current social problems involving learning. He specified each problems
and called it Book-worship, Misguided Zeal, Professional Philistinism, etc. If
you want to learn more about the current social problems of learning, try
reading his views.

------
pnathan
Not everyone has to go to college.

Everyone should have a trade, though. And there needs to be some framing of
background - call it 'education' - to be able to have a cultural awareness and
to also ably manage practicing ones trade.

------
guynamedloren
I realize the topic of discussion here is whether or not college is
important/useful, but as a sidenote I just have to say that your animation was
absolutely stunning! Excellent work!

------
ascendant
I didn't finish my college degree after I got into programming professionally
and I honestly am disappointed I didn't. I can write software but I feel a lot
of times I know how things go together the way they do, but not the why. There
are times when I wish I knew the theory behind things instead of just knowing
the syntax. I think the takeaway is that unless you're going to a really
expensive school for the alumni network, find a low price school with good
teachers and go for the knowledge. The degree at the end is a nice bonus but
having that theory to back up your practice will take you to the next level.

~~~
sebkomianos
I am graduating from a University of London college in a few days and I can
guarantee you it's not worth it.

Whatever you are interested in, pick a book and study about it. If you are
having trouble, go online and ask. What more can a college give you?

~~~
ascendant
A degree. No matter what people tell you it will open doors for you. After 10
years in the industry I can tell you it will get you in the door in certain
places.

~~~
sebkomianos
That happened 10 years ago, sure. And still happens in a lot of places but
these places just follow: Once some major voices go "Yeah, higher education is
no big deal", these places will start considering other things.

I've been sending emails about job opportunities as crazy lately and I am
really glad that the majority of the people I talk to ask me for samples of my
work in terms of coding and or project design rather than instead of exams
results.

And it's sad that I don't have a lot of things to show because I've been
thinking that I'll be okay just by doing the silly coursework.

------
rkon
_"College is expensive. Learn how to make cupcakes and knit sweaters
instead"_. That's the message I get after visiting your site and watching the
promo video on the "About" page.

Why should I pay $25 to spend 2 hours with a random person who may or may not
be a competent teacher? You trash college a lot, but you don't do anything to
inspire confidence in the Skillshare teachers or 'curriculum' (if there is
any).

------
smcj
The problem is that in the united states access to colleges and universities
has shifted from those who are gifted to those who can pay it.

How long can a society afford it to let gifted people clean desks and wash
cars instead of giving them the education they deserve to create benefits for
the society?

Every educational system which expects people to pay tuitions gives a up long-
term benefits for a short-term monetary gain.

Additionally it teaches young people that it is OK to have debts. It is not.
Never. Don't buy what you can't pay.

