
Don't let Google take over Berlin - alexandrerond
https://fuckoffgoogle.de/
======
detaro
recent discussion of a guardian article covering this (175 comments):
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17027834](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17027834)

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m90
Just like people repeatedly breaking the windows of a coffee shop nearby
because the owners are "bankers from London" (this was stated as the #1
selling point for boycot in a flyer) this entire movement exposes the worst
Kreuzberg has to offer: an incredibly self-righteous xenophobia.

People think they are so incredibly open minded when they are pro refugees,
but as soon as it's the "wrong kind of Ausländer" (the one where it's not
possible to impose moral standards as easily as it's not possible to exploit
their need for protection anymore) it's all evil all of a sudden.

People will need to realize that they will need to be welcoming to either
everyone or noone, everything else is just bigotry. Let's be welcoming to
everyone I would propose.

~~~
weirdstuff
That's not what they're saying. They don't want Google specifically, for
reasons they detail in-depth on their website. Being welcoming to everyone
doesn't really work, or otherwise we wouldn't have prisons.

Being open-minded is a two way street, remember.

~~~
m90
I don't know if you live in the area (I only work there), but this is a
recurring pattern that has happened quite a few times over the last years, not
only to Google. Everything that is a. wealthy and b. from abroad will receive
instant hatred. I talked to a few of these people and unfortunately it's only
a very short way to conspiracy theories and open antisemitism surfacing.

If you show up being German and wealthy, treatment will be way different
unfortunately.

~~~
pgeorgi
> If you show up being German and wealthy, treatment will be way different
> unfortunately.

Try being wealthy while Swabian in Berlin.

~~~
m90
They might hate you for the money, but you won't be dragged into the depths of
paranoid conspiracy theories about "wall street" taking over. Which, to me,
makes a huge difference.

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ArmandGrillet
The rents in Kreuzberg already increased a lot this past decade:
[https://guthmann-estate.com/marketreport/micro-market-
report...](https://guthmann-estate.com/marketreport/micro-market-reports-
berlin/kreuzberg/)

Gentrification is a problem, but long time renters in Germany are really
having it good. An example of how does the system works here: I pay twice as
much as some German friends living in my district because my parents didn't
sign me up in a union 20 years ago. I'm OK with that, it's the game, but
refusing new buildings/companies to keep the rents low is BS.

Kreuzberg is very well located, Berlin is huge, time to accept that 1989 was a
long time ago.

~~~
partiallypro
I don't understand this new mentality that "Gentrification is a problem,"
companies and wealthier people moving in makes everyone in the area more
wealthy. The problem of affordable housing has less to do with those companies
moving in and more to do with local real estate monopolies that lobby against
rezoning for residential and expanding building permits. That's basically the
bay area in a nutshell. People complain about the lack of affordable housing,
yet building new residential areas is a tapestry of red tape. And let's face
it, that's largely to protect real estate investors that don't want prices to
come down.

I would like to see bigger companies that move new offices to areas to use
their weight to push for more housing developments and permits as part of
their local agreements. I think that would go a long way (though still short)
in helping the situation.

~~~
bitL
Because Germany used to be different; if you had a long-term contract from 90s
that e.g. stated your rent was 300 EUR/month, there was very limited room for
any increases (basically only when your house went through some kind of
renovation or the energy etc. costs rose significantly). So somebody who lives
long-term in that neighborhood pays e.g. 400 EUR/month, whereas new tenants
pay 1500EUR/month for the same. It's pretty normal in the US to see these
kinds of yearly increases, but not in EU outside UK and EEU.

~~~
akx
Most Finnish rent contracts have a clause that allows the renter to adjust
(i.e. increase) the rent yearly by a given percentage (usually according to a
cost of living index).

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jimmaswell
If you kicked out every company that's done anything unethical or amoral,
you'd have no companies left. If Berliners really want to shoot themselves in
the foot like this then Google can take its operations elsewhere at no loss
while the locals are out better paying tech jobs and a market signal that
would invite more tech companies and startups to the area. I'm glad I don't
live in Berlin right now.

~~~
pdimitar
I think you are overestimating the IT market's talent abundance right now.

There are many people trying to get good programming wages and that doesn't
make them good programmers.

IMO Google -- and any other corp -- has a lot to lose if they close an office.
Real talent doesn't just exist everywhere you go.

I am not supporting or attacking the website, just clarifying the above point.

~~~
jimmaswell
> Real talent doesn't just exist everywhere you go.

Colleges outside cities, like the one I went to, are brimming with compsci
students that are then forced to move when they graduate, like I was. I'm sure
if companies set up locations in such areas, they'd be able to tap into a
decent amount of people like me who'd take a moderate pay cut to be able to
live and work in a less dense region - not just the graduates I mentioned, but
people who'd moved away from their home town and now could move back, or at
least to somewhere more resembling it.

~~~
pdimitar
I don't disagree but it seems to be a bit like the chicken and the egg
problem: companies would love to tap on that talent but most business
developers want hard evidence that the investment will repay itself, and for
that to happen somebody has to actually try. It becomes a mutual deadlock.

Furthermore, emphasizing on hiring graduates isn't a very sustainable
strategy; many startups prey on the naivete and energy of young people and
their hiring strategy usually revolves around draining a wave of young people
of their creativity and energy, fire them when they realize what's going and
then hire the next wave of naive and energetic youngsters.

Many companies do that, not only startups. But for that model to work they
need a big hiring pool. Not sure if rural-like areas have the volume of
candidates for that hiring model to be sustainable.

------
2trill2spill
Pretty immature website, I get why people are against Google and specifically
this campus but this website rubs me the wrong way. If they made the same
arguments, cleaned up the language and delivery and cited it with studies,
papers and facts it would be a much more credible site. They should probably
change the domain name as well.

~~~
Panoramix
The lack of numbers and clear facts in there are very telling. I'm always wary
when significant claims are made but no numbers or studies are cited to
support them. In this case it's just about feelings; believing something like
a sort of religion.

I'm not saying all of their claims are outright wrong, but this borderline
childish website did not persuade me of anything - if anything I have some
antipathy against this movement now.

~~~
dmix
> borderline childish website

It's fully childish, it's called "Fuck off Google" and the call to action
button is "WTF?", and it's promoting tagging graffiti on stores/public places
with ugly slogans and calling it "street art":
[https://fuckoffgoogle.de/2018/04/17/street-art-against-
googl...](https://fuckoffgoogle.de/2018/04/17/street-art-against-google/)

------
zamalek
There is some blatantly false information on this page.

> Google was caught red-handed participating in NSA’s illegall surveillance of
> almost everyone

PRISM was infiltration. The wiki also calls out Apple in this event, who are
known to proactively limit surveillance. Many of the arguments also suffer
from severely flawed logic, especially where the actions of others are held
against Google.

There is some truth here, but it is far outweighed by false information.

~~~
amoshi
>PRISM was infiltration.

According to the leaked documents, the companies were "partners". Of course
the companies denied it, what else did you expect?

>Government officials and the document itself made clear that the NSA regarded
the identities of its private partners as PRISM’s most sensitive secret,
fearing that the companies would withdraw from the program if exposed. “98
percent of PRISM production is based on Yahoo, Google and Microsoft; we need
to make sure we don’t harm these sources,” the briefing’s author wrote in his
speaker’s notes.

[https://www.washingtonpost.com/investigations/us-
intelligenc...](https://www.washingtonpost.com/investigations/us-intelligence-
mining-data-from-nine-us-internet-companies-in-broad-secret-
program/2013/06/06/3a0c0da8-cebf-11e2-8845-d970ccb04497_story.html)

~~~
zamalek
> the companies were "partners"

Except for the slide where the Google inflitration is documented?[1]

> we need to make sure we don’t harm these sources

A "source" in intelligence does not not necessarily imply complicitness, an
"asset" does.

[1]: [https://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/s--
Edu6LPu...](https://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/s--
Edu6LPu9--/c_scale,f_auto,fl_progressive,q_80,w_800/194thbtyencs0jpg.jpg)

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reacharavindh
Poorly represented information (lack of links to proper sources, and use of
profane language), but there is content worth discussing about.

Would Google's entry to Berlin trigger a rise of inequality for the city's
inhabitants and make life difficult for everyone that is not working for
Google? (for example private Google buses for their employees in San
Francisco)

Also a company that is morally a bad one in the public eye, with all the data
collection, appearance in NSA revelation, is not something that the citizens
of a city would NOT protest...

~~~
pgeorgi
Not sure Berlin and the Bay Area are comparable.

Berlin has working public transit (for some definition of working, much better
than Caltrain and BART though).

San Francisco has 700k inhabitants, Berlin has 3.5m inhabitants (half as many
as the entire Bay Area, but much more cohesive).

------
muehlbau
I'm from Munich where Google opened their first engineering office in Germany
and continuously expanded their presence ever since. I don't see that Munich
and the area were transformed by this as described here. However, Munich is a
very different city than Berlin. I can see why it might be tempting for a big
tech company to open an office or campus in Kreuzberg, because it represents a
certain style, but personally, I don't think the area is ready for this yet.

~~~
solarkraft
I would see Munich as very expensive already. The Berliners are probably
afraid of this happening to them.

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steenreem
I think the author is correct in thinking that Google will cause him
discomfort by creating this campus. Everyone in this area not employed by
Google will have to move because Google is basically buying the land, directly
or through its employees.

Some of Google's money will flow to locals not directly employed by Google,
but will this offset the increased cost of their living expenses?

~~~
pas
> Everyone in this area

Everyone in this area should have bought the flats they live in, or should
have signed long term leases with inflation-pegged rent adjustments.

Other than that it's simply people trying to tell someone to not eat their
cake, because they want it.

~~~
steenreem
Well, I think I can make a simpler argument. Google will change this
neighbourhood. The culture will change, the cost of things, not just rent,
will increase. Assuming that the author is very happy with how his
neighbourhood currently is, I can see how he doesn't want Google's change.

I think that, if the majority of the people in the area side with the author,
there is an argument to be made to, through political means, block bringers of
gentrifications such as Google from entering this area.

~~~
pas
I'm all for self-determination of individuals and groups. And the delicate
quest for the balance between those.

If the majority wants Google out, I want them to be able to do that.
Currently, that decision is very likely not up to them.

> The boroughs of Berlin are not independent municipalities; the borough
> governments' power is limited, and subordinate to the Berlin Senate.

And even if it were up to the district/borough, there are 270+ thousand people
there. They should hold a referendum, and let's hope for a high brow campaign.

Also, singling out Google is easy, and important. It's a milestone. It means
that gentrification is already - very likely - going to continue to happen
with full force there. Google picked the place because it's full of "talent",
small startups, "cool places/parties", etc.

------
Gudin
That's a nice Material Design on that page that's saying Google _is_ Evil!

~~~
iotku
It's a reasonably sleek Wordpress theme [1], but pretty far off from Material
Design proper [2].

The animation while clicking links/buttons typically gives away if something
was designed to implement Material Design or not.

[https://extendthemes.com/mesmerize/](https://extendthemes.com/mesmerize/)

[https://material.io/design/introduction/](https://material.io/design/introduction/)

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megamindbrian2
I actually like Google. Facebook, Microsoft, and Apple are way worse.

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zyngaro
To be honest their argument is sound: the business model of google is to
transform grey matter or brain power into money. And that is the ultimate
business model.

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hajderr
You got the NSA stuff Right and that should suffice. People tend to forget so
easily...geee. Will we see a global awakening against Google soon?

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holografix
Def time for Google/Amazon/Facebook to have some real competition in Europe.

Can’t let the Chinese do all the work.

~~~
bitL
There was this company, how it was called, erm, ah I know: Nokia. It was the
dominant force in fastest growing industry. For some reason they decided to
become a headless chicken for some US corp, who knows why?

That's the short version of any EU-based competition to US companies in
software. Dreams don't correspond to reality.

------
WiseWeasel
I don't have a dog in this race, so I'm not interested in the premise, but
that favicon is great. Also, it's refreshing to see that standard startup site
template used for 'why fuck google'.

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tzakrajs
> Instead of a nice friendly “campus” we see a Google farm for harvesting
> Kreuzberg’s brains and talents, or a Google mine in which ideas and data
> will be extracted out of Berlin

It's simply not a zero sum game. Google will bring culture and resources with
it that could enhance Berlin.

~~~
toomuchtodo
That’s up to the people of Berlin to decide, not a faceless American tech
company.

~~~
ryanworl
Is that actually even true? Google already has an office in Berlin. They can
just buy more buildings.

Even if some local politician decides to block a construction plan, I’m not
sure how they would stop Google from just buying existing stuff nearby their
old office like Amazon does.

Google in Manhattan bought a building the size of an entire block essentially.
It isn’t even what I would call a campus there either.

~~~
toomuchtodo
Berlin’s council can prevent additional real estate acquisitions by Google.
They’re already taking measures to keep housing affordable with government
intervention.

Germany is not broken how America is, so it’s easier to put people ahead of
corporations there.

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ahbs66
I'm sure you can make an argument against gentrification without making it
look like some anarchist bs

~~~
VikingCoder
I'm not really sure you can. :(

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tempuracat
Why people are afraid of dystopian future? Enjoy it!

