
Battle of Alesia - JoelMcCracken
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Alesia
======
srge
In France, this event is well known and taught in class (at least it was in
the 80's).

As I remember it now, this was taught as a bittersweet moment in our history.
We united, we were brave and fought a stronger army but still we were defeated
and our chief was captured and killed by the enemy.

As a result we were colonized and we lost almost all our Celtic culture
(Celtic culture remains present notably in Bretagne — Britain). But we were
"civilized" by the Romans. I think this was taught as being a tough but
positive thing.

Today I find it interesting to think about how "civilization" spreading if
often a gruesome process and how it's seen centuries, if not (in this case),
milleniums later.

~~~
hrktb
It’s always funny how the Franks are seens as “us”, when looking throught
history France has been washed by waves of invasions that all left deep
cultural mixes.

Going to Normandy nowadays and looking at general public exposition it’s make
pretty clear their ancestry is mostly from the Vikings and Nords.

In the east it’s also clear that their frenchness is a fluctuating and partial
attribute.

All around the country, each region have a very clear multi-cultural past. And
Paris and its periphery is a huge Petri dish of people coming from around the
world with a significant number of families that have no ancestors that were
in France more than four or five generation ago.

Books still present Franks as french people’s ancestors, but I wonder how
teacher make it match with the reality when they teach their students.

~~~
mytailorisrich
The Franks are not depicted as ancestors of the French people in general but
rather as the founders of France.

~~~
hrktb
Sorry I mixed up Franks and Gaulois, which are two different things
altogether.

The part I had in mind is the old “our ancestors, the gaulois” which is not
taught as is anymore, but still stays very present in the minds through an
almost exclusive focus on Gaulois’ side when depicting that time period (not
just fantasy depictions like Asterix, but also a lot of documentaries and
reconstitutions funded publicly)

[https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nos_ancêtres_les_Gaulois](https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nos_ancêtres_les_Gaulois)

~~~
mytailorisrich
Well, in fairness it is true that 'modern' French have Gauls among their
ancestors.

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jpmontez
Historia Civilis has a video about this battle:
[https://youtu.be/SU1Ej9Yqt68](https://youtu.be/SU1Ej9Yqt68)

~~~
WD-42
Came here to share this link. I think Historia Civilis is a channel a lot of
HNs would really enjoy.

~~~
simlevesque
My favorite youtube channel by far. It's always a good day when a new video is
out.

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vondur
Not sure why this was posted here, but this is one of Caesar's greatest
victories in the Gallic wars. The engineering capabilities of the Roman
legions were very impressive. For those who don't know, Caesar had built a
wall around the city of Alesia to blockade the defenders in. When a relief
force was dispatched to attack the Romans and break the siege, Caesar built
another wall and line of defenses to hold off the attacking relief force. The
Romans were able to defeat the Gauls and add it to the Roman Empire
(Republic).

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wefarrell
To me the key takeaway of this is the desperation of the Gauls and the
ruthlessness of the Romans. This part sums it up the best:

"The inhabitants of the town sent out their wives and children to save food
for the fighters, hoping that Caesar would take them as captives and feed
them. However, Caesar forbade their being admitted to his fortification."

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roter
The fifth book of Colleen McCullough's "Master of Rome" series covers the
battle [0].

[0]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caesar_(McCullough_novel)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caesar_\(McCullough_novel\))

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PeterCorless
How has no one pointed out this awesome boardgame yet?

[https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/1430/caesar-epic-
battle-...](https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/1430/caesar-epic-battle-
alesia)

~~~
ryutin
This is one of my all time favorites. Is there a internet or computerized
version of this yet ?

~~~
PeterCorless
[http://www.vassalengine.org/wiki/Module:Caesar:_Epic_Battle_...](http://www.vassalengine.org/wiki/Module:Caesar:_Epic_Battle_of_Alesia)

~~~
so_tired
Amazing open source effort. My immediate thought is building an AI generic
player that can train itself and play (most) of the games

What r your opinions ?

~~~
PeterCorless
I just wonder if the AI would be easier to train for Rome or for the Gauls!

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axilmar
As a young Greek, I had no idea the battle of Alesia was real. It was
something that I read on Asterix, and since the name of the Gallic leader was
Vercingetorix, I thought the entire thing was made up by Uderzo/Goscinny :-).

Thanks to the internet though, I discovered the facts a few years after I have
read the reference in the comic book.

We know so little about our neighbours, about other countries!

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nemo1618
Reading this made me realize how little Roman history I know. What's the best
source for learning about the major people and events of that era?

EDIT: I guess what I'm really looking for is a hierarchy of topics, starting
extremely broad (e.g. Roman Republic vs. Roman Empire) and drilling down into
individual people and events. In other words, I want to do a breadth-first
traversal, rather than depth-first.

~~~
adamch
The Masters of Rome novels by Colleen McCullough are historically accurate,
incredibly dramatic, gripping and realistic. They tell the story of Rome from
the birth of Caesar in the Republic to the ascension of his successor Augustus
in the Empire.

~~~
JackFr
I, Claudius by Robert Graves is fascinating and very readable. One of the
greatest examples of historical fiction. All of the major events of the book
are historically accurate, and Graves just brings them to life with dialog and
his knowledge of daily life in Rome. The sequel Claudius the God, is good, but
honestly covers a less interesting period in Roman history.

------
cellis
There's a really good pro Age of Empires II battle where one of the players
played this exact strategy. If you like strategy games you would enjoy the
similarities.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6spfnJMdd-k](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6spfnJMdd-k)

------
RmDen
See also Hardcore History Episode 60 The Celtic Holocaust
[https://www.dancarlin.com/hardcore-history-60-the-celtic-
hol...](https://www.dancarlin.com/hardcore-history-60-the-celtic-holocaust/)

~~~
JoelMcCracken
This is what prompted me to post this, I was listening to it and thought yinz
might like it

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hooande
serious question, how is this interesting beyond "Caesar had a significant
cavalry advantage"?

~~~
greggyb
I think there's plenty interesting.

The sophistication of Roman siege warfare. There is an entrenched enemy.
Caesar's legions build miles of fortification to surround and starve out the
enemy. Many more enemies come to break the siege. Caesar's legions build
_second_ miles long fortification, around the first.

It is a defining moment in Caesar's rise to fame and infamy, laying the
groundwork for his eventual emperorship. Without this victory and Caesar's
popular support, the history of Rome may have been very different.

There is a noble sacrifice by the Gallic general, Vercingetorix. Realizing the
imminent defeat, he suggests to his people that they kill him or surrender him
as a bargaining chip to receive lenience from the conquering Caesar. He does
this knowing that the Roman tradition is to march defeated generals through
the streets of Rome before ritually killing them. Turns out he got to be
imprisoned for years before that "honor".

These are the three things that stood out most to me.

~~~
kirrent
"laying the groundwork for his eventual emperorship".

Worth pointing out that Julius Caesar was never emperor and its difficult to
say that he really aspired to such a position. Yes, he was dictator for life
but Sulla had fairly recently been appointed dictator with no time limit
applied so that wasn't without precedent. Working out what could have happened
of he hadn't been assassinated is difficult. Did he take on many of the
trappings of a king? Yes. Did he seem to try and avoid that same perception,
such as with the crown at Lupercalia? Also yes. Whatever he was though, he
certainly was not emperor.

~~~
rurp
True, but you could say similar things about his successor Augustus. He was
outwardly modest and merely referred to himself as "First Citizen", not
dictator. But for all practical purposes he was an emperor that ruled for
decades.

There was a whole PR strategy related to this that went on for centuries. Many
of the rulers after Julius Caesar talked about restoring power to senate
and/or the citizens, and downplayed their own immense power, without actually
doing much of anything to reduce it.

That said, it's certainly possible that Julius Caesar could have followed a
similar path to Sulla. He very well might have had every intention of
relinquishing power after a certain point.

~~~
flukus
From what I understand one big difference between Caesar and Augustus was that
Caeser had a fairly sizable domestic agenda with a list of reforms that had
been building up and getting frustrated for decades, so it's
possible/plausible he was planning to retire once this was accomplished. As
far as I know Augustus never had such firm plan aside from consolidating
power.

But understanding the domestic politics of the time certainly isn't easy, it's
hard enough to understand the internal politics of another country today but
throw in a radically different set of political structures and issues.

------
davidw
> The battle of Alesia marked the end of Gallic independence in France and
> Belgium.

Well, not entirely... One small village of indomitable Gauls still holds out
against the invaders.

~~~
lukas099
Who?

~~~
michaelt
This is a quote from
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asterix](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asterix)
\- the best selling French/Belgian comic, first published in 1959, translated
into 111 languages, and adapted into 13 films.

 _" The year is 50 BC. Gaul is entirely occupied by the Romans. Well, not
entirely... One small village of indomitable Gauls still holds out against the
invaders. And life is not easy for the Roman legionaries who garrison the
fortified camps of Totorum, Aquarium, Laudanum and Compendium"_

