

Ask HN: Could a newborn baby walk and run by wearing an exoskeleton? - amichail

If necessary, a real-time brain scanner could be used to allow movement based on neural activation patterns.<p>Perhaps such an exoskeleton could even accelerate a baby&#x27;s brain development?
======
Piskvorrr
TL;DR: No.

A newborn baby is not a CPU+motherboard which just needs to grow the other
peripherals and BAM it all just snaps into place, nor is it a tiny adult with
fully functional tiny appendages.

A newborn needs to develop all sorts of skills - starting with breathing
patterns & sleep patterns, not to mention feeding. Yes, these things become
automatic pretty quickly; however, the baby needs to "bootstrap" itself from
the absolute basics provided by reflex, iteratively, to more and more complex
tasks - it cannot start in the middle of the "technology tree," to use a
metaphor from strategic games, as it would lack the underlying capabilities.
Muscle coordination (in other words, _developing_ the neural activation
patterns whose existence you're presupposing), sensory input (movement w/o
vision, very useful) and cross-referencing the inputs/outputs comes much, much
later.

Now, with a 6-month-old, that exoskeleton of yours might be actually workable
(in theory) - but a newborn? No way _at all_ ; your view of human biology is
rather cartoonish: we're not starting out with a complete brain which just
needs some muscles, the brain develops _alongside_ the rest of the organism.

~~~
Stwerp
While I agree with you, its worth noting that newborns do exhibit a walking
reflex (that usually disappears after a few weeks). I would not completely
rule out the possibility of a newborn walking with an exoskeleton -- the
problem seems to be that their muscles cannot support weight or balance.

Cheesy example video, but the first after a quick search:
[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mJIcKkxx7wg](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mJIcKkxx7wg)

Edit: and now I see that someone has already mentioned this in the other
comments.

~~~
Perdition
>the problem seems to be that their muscles cannot support weight or balance.

It does? Newborns can support their own weight when hanging. Most toddlers can
support their own weight standing long before they develop the coordination
required to walk. Babies lack fine motor control.

Our ancestors, with less complex brains, would have been able to walk shortly
after birth, hence the walking reflex.

I suspect the issue is that the complexity of modern human brains delays the
formation of the neural circuits required for walking because a whole bunch of
complex features are developing at the same time.

~~~
Stwerp
I do see your point but still, a newborn cannot support their head by
themselves. Having the muscle ability to be able to hold ones head up is a
fairly good prerequisite for being able to walk.

------
rthomas6
I have a six week old son. He is actually quite strong already, but he doesn't
have much control over his own body. He will scratch himself in the face to
the point of bleeding if he's upset and he's not wearing mittens/his nails
aren't trimmed. He can straighten his legs and body out and it takes a
surprising amount of force to unstraighten them (if you need to, say, clothe
him or change his diaper). Babies already have a device that allows movement
based on neural activation patterns... it's called a body. They just have to
learn how to use it.

~~~
waps
The unstraightening thing is actually because of the construction of the
bones. The bones bend a little, just a little, more than straight and there is
a muscle that can pull on the other side. This locks legs in place when
straightened, but still maintains a spring-like mechanism protecting the weak
points in the bone structure (because it's not actually straight, it makes an
angle).

A baby is actually too weak to hold himself up. I'm not saying that that's the
only problem, but his muscles are certainly not capable of holding his body
off the ground the first 2-3 months. That's why it's important to put them on
their belly (but not leave them like that for more than 30 minutes or so), and
ideally try to help them crawl, roll and walk, even when they can't. They'll
love standing up, and hanging from the side of the cot. Plus they'll love the
attention.

And don't worry about babies and young kids falling over. Their skeleton can
actually absorb more force than yours can (because it isn't nearly as rigid as
yours, which probably also means it's much harder to walk with). In addition
to that, they weigh less, and F=ma, so they can easily survive drops that
would kill or severely injure an adult.

~~~
rthomas6
We give him "tummy time", as they called it at the hospital classes. He can
and does hold his head up quite frequently, but he is not yet able to push off
the ground with his arms. This probably isn't of any interest, I am just doing
the new parent thing where I tell everyone about my kid.

------
seren
I am not sure if you are aware, but if you hold a newborn baby under its arm,
it will make a walking motion in the air with its legs. This is likely the
remnant of a legacy behavior that was useful a few millions years ago. I don't
know how the test is called but it is part of the standard test protocol at
birth. I am not sure if this is part of Agpar score [0] or called something
else.

[0]
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apgar_score](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apgar_score)

~~~
keithflower
What you describe is a primitive reflex called the walk/step reflex:

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primitive_reflexes#Walking.2Fst...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primitive_reflexes#Walking.2Fstepping_reflex)

It is not a component of the Apgar.

------
pjungwir
Here is an exoskeleton for babies, albeit not quite for newborns:

[http://www.newbornbabyzone.com/wp-
content/uploads/2010/05/ba...](http://www.newbornbabyzone.com/wp-
content/uploads/2010/05/baby-walker.jpg)

But I believe these are discouraged nowadays for slowing development.

------
walterbell
Maybe nature has already pre-scheduled brain development not related to
walking & running? Calculators & exoskeletons are augmentative _after_ basic
skills exist, otherwise the brain would be completely dependent on the
external crutch.

~~~
amichail
The exoskeleton need not be worn 24/7.

~~~
crpatino
No, sorry. You are too ignorant on too many subjects to realize just how
ignorant you are. And if you try to go ahead with this idea of your, you will
cross the barrier into criminally-negligent-ignorance. Just don't!

Children are not small adults, and babies are not small children either. It is
not like your present self going to a tennis class on the weekends and leaving
it aside the rest of the week. Every stimulus during the first few days/weeks
of life outside the womb has a disproportionate effects on the neural
development of the individual.

Using a computer engineering analogy, babies are "pre-programmed" by millions
of years of evolution to "bootstrap" their brains through "machine learning".
Mess with the "trainning set" and you will cripple the result for a lifetime.

This is the kind of experiment (on mammals) that can get PETA all over you.
Just considering its hypothetical use on humans is pretty much the stuff
007!Mad-scientists are made off.

~~~
walterbell
This hypothetical question involves an exoskeleton _and_ neurofeedback.

Hopefully it remains hypothetical and does not become a mad-scientist
methodology for using babies to bootstrap a neural network that teaches robots
how to walk.

~~~
crpatino
That's not what I had in mind... though it's pretty scary and downright evil.
I read the OP as trying to use robots to teach babies how to walk, not the
other way around.

I was thinking more in the lack of practical purpose of the endeavor
itself[1]. Something that potentially causes a bunch of collateral damage for
no clear purpose. Human babies have been learning to walk on their own for
about a million years unaided, just like every walking animal before them.

[1] Lampshaded here (kind of):
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qnMaroAlfvI](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qnMaroAlfvI)

------
davelnewton
Babies can't control their _own_ bodies, how would it control an additional
one?

------
djent
Maybe easier than a baby-exoskeleton would be a zero gravity or extremely low
gravity situation. I'd imagine balance is one of the only things that keeps
babies from walking, and you can't fall over if there's little to no gravity
pulling you down.

