
Stripe has frozen Gab.com's account - mooseburger
https://twitter.com/getongab/status/1047538991363489792
======
jchw
As it's been previously mentioned, it appears the pressure comes from
MasterCard and Visa.

Can someone please tell me why we're letting payment processors control what
kind of content we're allowed to pay for when tech giants are under near
constant scrutiny for their moderation of user-generated content?

~~~
scrollaway
It comes down to fraud. MasterCard and Visa don't give a crap how nasty your
content is (they fund terrorism, FFS). What they don't like is dealing with
chargeback fees.

Stripe has pretty strict rules over prohibited businesses
([https://stripe.com/us/prohibited-
businesses](https://stripe.com/us/prohibited-businesses)). For example, here's
their list of "high risk businesses", prohibited by their financial partners:

> Bankruptcy lawyers; computer technical support; psychic services; travel
> reservation services and clubs; airlines; cruises; timeshares; prepaid phone
> cards, phone services, and cell phones; telemarketing, telecommunications
> equipment and telephone sales; drop shipping; forwarding brokers; negative
> response marketing; credit card and identity theft protection; the use of
> credit to pay for lending services; any businesses that we believe poses
> elevated financial risk, legal liability, or violates card network or bank
> policies; any business or organization that a. engages in, encourages,
> promotes or celebrates unlawful violence or physical harm to persons or
> property, or b. engages in, encourages, promotes or celebrates unlawful
> violence toward any group based on race, religion, disability, gender,
> sexual orientation, national origin, or any other immutable characteristic

"Travel reservation services and clubs" bit me at some point, I wanted to
build a flight reservation service and was surprised to hear I couldn't. But
apparently, it's a high risk business because lots of people chargeback flight
tickets.

Also, Gab completely fails that last criteria, they're not kidding anyone.

~~~
pranks
If fraud was the only thing they cared about, why was Alex Jones (and other
conservatives) deplatformed by MasterCard? Why are some banks stopping every
customer they have from allowing them to buy firearms?

~~~
scrollaway
> _why was Alex Jones deplatformed by MasterCard_

Oh I can't possibly think of a reason why someone would chargeback Alex Jones'
Totally Legitimate Line of "BURN ALL YOUR FAT" products. Health & Wellness is
a known high risk category.

> [...] _firearms_?

I'm talking about Visa and MasterCard. Banks have regulations to worry about.

~~~
pranks
I think it was Buzzfeed News or Daily Beast but they did an investigation into
Alex jones products... they’re legit products

~~~
scrollaway
I'm guessing you're referencing this?
[https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/charliewarzel/we-
sent-a...](https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/charliewarzel/we-sent-alex-
jones-infowars-supplements-to-a-lab-heres)

I just skimmed it, looks like a good piece of investigative work. I don't see
where you're reading they're "legit products", all the article seems to say is
that they're not outright dangerous.

And this holds absolutely no value to payment processors, btw. Health &
Wellness _is a high risk category, period_. I don't know why you think "but
they're legit!" is even sort of relevant.

------
chomp
Wow, main stream society doesn't want to associate with a company that harbors
extremists. I'm shocked.

So many commenters on this are jumping to a slippery slope fallacy as if
Stripe has any moral imperative to uphold free speech. They are a private
company and have their own reasons to disassociate from any client they wish.
That is their prerogative, and as long as they are not discriminating against
anything that is a federally protected class (and last I checked, hosting porn
is not federally protected) they can cut off services to anyone.

~~~
willpiers
there are extremists and pornographers all over other sites that use stripe.

the "private company" argument doesn't apply super well when there are only a
handful of options and they all have the same political ideology.

~~~
creaghpatr
Does Stripe know that one of their flagship clients listed on their site
(Pinterest) hosts NSFW content?

[https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2012/03/cours...](https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2012/03/course-
theres-porn-pinterest/329954/)

~~~
chomp
Literally from Pinterest's Community Guidelines:

"We always remove images of explicit sexual activity or fetishes, and nude or
partially nude people in sexually suggestive poses."

Does GabTV have anything like this in their terms of service? Answer: No. They
signed up with Stripe, agreed to the ToS, and now are generating moral outrage
when Stripe comes knocking.

~~~
thrower123
Then Pinterest is doing an absolute shit job of enforcing their own rules, I
suppose.

------
berbec
Despite all the hype, smoke and crypto, if the mainstream payment processors
cut you off, what is a business supposed to do?

~~~
creaghpatr
Change your content moderation to align with Stripe’s realm of decency, duh /s

------
faitswulff
I'm struggling to find it, but there was a hackernews comment thread about
NSFW payment processor alternatives to Stripe (which is pretty strict about
NSFW content). Higher fees, though, of course.

~~~
laurencei
Yeah - it was a ?blog about how hard it is to do payments for porn sites.

~~~
faitswulff
I'm pretty sure it was in this discussion:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17432801](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17432801)

------
edoceo
Similar thing happened to me. STRIPE closed me at their discretion and yet my
direct competitors are using Stripe (they've since asked me back but I
declined, too risky).

One thing Stripe cited was their underwriting FI wouldn't allow it. IIRC that
FI was Wells Fargo, we my company has had a happy relationship since we
started five years ago.

------
designingapis
I did checked GAB's site and I can confirm that this place was full of racism
and hateful comments towards anyone who believe their ideas. I honestly think
you can get your message across without being a dick. Someone else here
mentioned these guys promote "freedom of hate", I think that's very close to
reality.

Downvote me all you want, but you can check for yourself, this is just a white
supremacist cave.

Don't believe their freed of speech crap they promote.

~~~
alphabettsy
I’m somewhat conflicted. Sometimes I wish these people were on mainstream
platforms with their real names so their stances and motives would be clear.
Too many people with these kinds of ideas have learned to disguise their hate
speech with a touch of intellectualism.

------
minikites
If you're unfamiliar with Gab, it's Twitter for neo-Nazis.

[https://www.cnbc.com/2017/12/11/the-alt-right-created-a-
para...](https://www.cnbc.com/2017/12/11/the-alt-right-created-a-parallel-
internet-its-a-holy-mess.html)

[https://www.vice.com/en_uk/article/ywxb95/gab-is-the-alt-
rig...](https://www.vice.com/en_uk/article/ywxb95/gab-is-the-alt-right-social-
network-racists-are-moving-to)

[https://www.timesofisrael.com/growing-platform-gab-woos-
alt-...](https://www.timesofisrael.com/growing-platform-gab-woos-alt-right-
exiled-from-other-social-media/)

[https://www.fastcompany.com/3065777/inside-gab-the-new-
twitt...](https://www.fastcompany.com/3065777/inside-gab-the-new-twitter-
alternative-championed-by-the-alt-right)

~~~
MysticFear
It's twitter (youtube live & other services) for people are silenced by
mainstream providers (currently, people with extreme views)

~~~
tptacek
It's Twitter for neo-Nazis.

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17729028](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17729028)

------
rvcamo
Hey guys,

CEO of Gab.com here.

Here is our full response to Stripe:

Hello Stripe Support,

To our knowledge no one is using GabTV to specifically livestream adult
content and certainly not charging to access this live content because that is
not possible on Gab. Can you please cite any specific examples for our review
if you have discovered any? Currently only GabPro accounts can livestream
content, but Gab native video uploading can be used by anyone including free
version users. I think you may be conflating GabTV livestreaming with Gab
native video uploading. Further, anyone can view and access any native video
or livestreaming content for free on Gab without processing any payments
through Stripe or anyone else. We do not offer any form of "exclusive" video
unlocking access features via GabPro.

Secondly, we have several protocols and user guidelines in place to prevent
any illegal activity on the site. We work with law enforcement regularly and
see to it that any illegal content is reported to the proper agencies. We also
have several technical features in place such as PhotoDNA to scan for and
report any illegal content, machine learning systems that detect nudity which
is not properly labeled NSFW, and user guidelines that require any adult
content to be marked as Not Safe For Work; which is a setting that is on by
default for all users and public-facing links. Both our User Guidelines and
our GabPro Content Creator Agreement state that we do not allow any illegal
activity on our service.

We believe these guidelines and our user agreements already cover what your
own guidelines require and we will certainly take action on any offending
accounts if you can point us to specific violating examples. We will also work
to add improved reporting features to GabTV videos to make it easier for users
to flag this content in the future.

We are happy to jump on a call if it is easier to discuss because some of your
requests are not clear. For example your demand that we remove all adult
content from the entire site, which is a bit unreasonable considering the many
technical and user guidelines we have in place to ensure the specific Stripe
guideline you cite is not violated and that no illegal activity is happening
on the site.

Please advise

Andrew Torba CEO, Gab.com

PS HN: We release our API today. Hit me up if you want to build something
cool: andrew@gab.com
[https://developers.gab.com/](https://developers.gab.com/)

~~~
minikites
You were a lot more polite to Stripe than you were to Y Combinator:

[https://techcrunch.com/2016/11/12/pro-trump-ceo-gets-
booted-...](https://techcrunch.com/2016/11/12/pro-trump-ceo-gets-booted-from-
y-combinator/)

>While Torba paints this as a free speech issue, YC told BuzzFeed that he was
kicked out for “for speaking in a threatening, harassing way toward other YC
founders” — particularly in this Facebook comment:

>“All of you: fuck off. Take your morally superior, elitist, virtue signaling
bullshit and shove it. I call it like I see it, and I helped meme a President
into office, cucks.”

>Torba had also tweeted a screenshot of another founder’s Facebook comment
(the founder’s name was removed) that “being a black, Muslim or woman in the
USA is going to be very scary” with his own comment: “Build the wall.” Then,
in another thread, a YC alum alluded to Torba’s behavior without mentioning
him by name, prompting him to jump in: “Say my name when you talk about me,
coward. Build the wall.”

------
mrschwabe
Why was Andrew Torba's comment (on this thread) - the CEO of Gab and subject
of this discussion - downvoted and already censored ('dead') ? Absurd.

[https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DooMz4QV4AEEuv4.jpg:large](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DooMz4QV4AEEuv4.jpg:large)

Here is the link to his comment if you wish to reply:

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18136380](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18136380)

And make sure you turn on 'showdead' in your settings otherwise miss key
comments like this.

~~~
dang
Comments from banned users get killed automatically. I've unkilled that one.
In the future, if you see a comment that shouldn't be [dead], that's what the
'vouch' feature is for: click on its timestamp to go to its page, then click
'vouch'. You're also welcome to email hn@ycombinator.com and let us know, so
we can unkill it. But please don't noise up the thread by posting offtopically
about it.

~~~
mrschwabe
Ok, fair enough - thanks for the prompt response.

------
adrianscott
Really disappointed that the CEO's response has been censored / dead'd here.
Not a great moment for HN.

~~~
dang
That account was banned a long time ago for posting tons of comments violating
the site guidelines. Obviously we ban any account that does that. We wouldn't
be moderators if we didn't.

Banned users' comments get killed automatically. We often unkill good comments
posted by banned accounts. I've unkilled that one.

If you see a comment that shouldn't be [dead], click on its timestamp to go to
its page, then click 'vouch' at the top. (There's a small karma threshold
before those links appear.) You can also email us at hn@ycombinator.com to
point out a comment that needs to be unkilled. Complaining off-topically in
the thread does nothing but add noise, so please don't do that.

~~~
adrianscott
thanks

------
byron_fast
Is there a slope to where everyone is a neo-nazi equivalent though? I realize
these are not likable people, but at the same time slurs are thrown around
these days at many undeserving groups.

It's a tough call: I don't want to see losers abuse a private company's terms
of service, nor do I want to see businesses be constantly virtue-signalling.

Virtue-signalling is itself a dirty business: how long 'til we see the neo-
communists (or whatever, you choose) who happily sell Che shirts on Stripe?

~~~
tareqak
I'm not sure if you picked a bad example, or you're reaching for "both sides
are the same", but [https://www.amazon.com/s/?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-
keywo...](https://www.amazon.com/s/?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-
keywords=che%20guevara%20t-shirt) .

~~~
byron_fast
Everyone has their own view on who is bad, is all. One person's virtue signal
is another's evil.

------
adamnemecek
This is fucked up. I hate that companies are dictating culture. I get that
this is really visa and MasterCard but god I can’t wait for online payments to
be a solved problem.

~~~
Barrin92
Surely the free speech heroes at Gab will understand that everyone else has
also the freedom to not associate with them.

~~~
jlawson
"Freedom to speak"

Does not imply:

"Freedom to use power to silence other people arbitrarily".

In fact it implies the opposite:

"Responsibility to uphold speech even if you disagree with it."

~~~
Barrin92
Freedom of speech does by no means entail that anybody has to a) listen to
your speech, b) host you on their platform or do business with you.

~~~
jlawson
It doesn't imply A), but it does imply B) to some degree.

To believe a right exists means to believe it should be upheld, which means
you should uphold it.

~~~
ubernostrum
OK. So make a list for me of causes and ideas you hate the most.

I'll arrange for you to tithe in support of organizations promoting those
causes. I'll also arrange for someone to show up at your home, every day, and
deliver a one-hour lecture on the ideas you dislike.

I'm sure you'll do this because, after all, you believe in free speech and you
believe you must "uphold" it by requiring people to support ideas with which
they disagree, Yes?

~~~
jlawson
There's an obvious difference between actively supporting ideas with which you
disagree (e.g by donating money), and simply not using power to silence those
ideas.

You seem to think that your response to any possible political idea MUST be
either to donate to it, or use all possible power to attack and silence it.
It's obviously a ridiculous false dichotomy. It is possible just to live and
let live.

~~~
ubernostrum
You've declared, quite clearly, that you think the following things are
equivalent:

1\. Not actively providing resources to a position you dislike

2\. "Using your power to silence" positions you dislike

I know you've said these are equivalent, because you're arguing that certain
people _owe_ other people a platform and associated services (1), and you've
used the language of (2) to shame them for not doing it.

The only thing left to do at this point is ask if you're willing to practice
what you preach.

~~~
jlawson
More absurd false equivalence.

Simply treating a customer the same as other customers is not equivalent to
actively providing resources to a political cause.

And yes, payment processors do owe it to customers to treat them equally with
regards to their politics and beliefs (as well as their race, gender,
language, and so on).

You seem to want to live in a world where wrongthinkers are viciously
persecuted by every person, every business, everyone in every possible way.
Because you think you'll always be in the team with the power to do that. When
you have the experience of being the hated minority, you'll understand the
value of equal treatment and the norms of individual freedom.

~~~
ubernostrum
_When you have the experience of being the hated minority_

Politicians of explicitly right-wing alignment control:

* The US Presidency

* The US Senate

* The US House of Representatives

* 33/50 US governorships

* Legislatures of 26/50 US states

and are about to install a conservative-leaning majority into the US Supreme
Court.

Rosa Parks you ain't, bud.

