
Ask HN: Non-compete agreement advice? - arenaninja
Hi HN! I&#x27;m close to culminating my job search after almost four months. I&#x27;m looking at increased dev responsibility without people management with a significant pay increase (+22.8%) magnified by a lower cost of living here in Texas. Going through my paperwork, it&#x27;s all straightforward; I thought the NDA was reasonable, but I&#x27;m having issues agreeing with the NCA. It&#x27;s lengthy (48months, aka 4 years) and I feel very loosely worded (not to mention one sided). The thing is, very few companies seem to be out here, and I&#x27;m afraid of bringing this up since I may lose out on a rather significant pay raise. I&#x27;m thinking of asking for a more specific one (reduce it to the branch of the company that I work with, instead of every facet such as ecommerce&#x2F;healthcare&#x2F;whatever else is in the pipeline) and reduced time (24 months). Any advice?
======
davismwfl
You might just ask an attorney to look it over. Seriously it would likely be a
good $150-300 investment. I know in Florida where I am, non-competes are very
frowned upon in the legal system if they are too broad, overly prohibitive or
for more than 2 years (in general). The key is an employer cannot prevent you
from working in your field of expertise, and they cannot prevent you from
using your knowledge to help others, except that they can hold you accountable
not to disclose or utilize company specific knowledge. That is sometimes hard
to define, but usually is the secret sauce that makes something unique. Also,
this changes the higher up in the company management you go too, execs are
treated different than say a developer would be.

I had a company want me to sign a non-compete that said I wouldn't take any
job where I would work with GPS, geographical systems, or location aware
systems for a period of 4 years anywhere in the United States (this was a
Florida Company). This was a firm involved with financial software for the
lending industry. I just told them that 1, it is way to broad and I can't sign
it, and 2, btw it isn't going to pass muster here in Florida because it is too
prohibitive and way too broad not to mention too long. I had a good
relationship with the company (and owner) so I felt comfortable telling them
what I felt from having been involved in non-compete structure with my last
company. What I did agree to is saying for a period of 12 months leaving their
job I would not help any other financial software services firm develop a
geographical based algorithm. I think in the end we settled on 18 months, but
it worked out.

Not being an attorney, I did go ask an attorney and paid for an hour of
guidance and I did the negotiation to keep it non-confrontational. In fact,
they never knew I talked to an attorney. Best couple hundred bucks I spent as
I made good money on that contract.

------
scott00
Two basic strategies apply:

(1) Sign the ridiculous agreement, knowing it is completely unenforceable, and
plan to completely ignore it when you leave. If you consider this strategy,
you MUST consult with a lawyer to confirm that it is unenforceable, and you
MUST be willing to pay a lawyer after you leave to deal with the nasty letter
they may send you and your next employer. Ask the lawyer how much that might
cost, and build it into your compensation expectations. Also, be aware that
even if you know it is unenforceable, the nasty letter may scare your next
employer into revoking your offer, so be prepared to be upfront about your
situation with the next employer, and consequently to expect it to take longer
to find the next job. Build that into your compensation expectations for this
job as well.

(2) Negotiate an agreement you're actually willing to follow to the letter.
Personally, I wouldn't agree to anything that doesn't compensate me for time
sitting out, and I wouldn't care much what the restrictions are during the
time period. I would be looking for at least 75% of total comp for periods up
to 3 months, 100% of total comp for periods up to 6 months, and 120% of total
comp for periods longer than 6 months.

IMO option 2 is the far better choice, if at all possible. Two factors would
make me consider option 1. If the company is a large or inflexible
organization, where you can't negotiate with a person who actually has the
power to change the agreement, option 2 might not be realistic. Second, you
should try to find out if the company actually has a habit of sending nasty
letters to people who leave. If they actually do that, then I would guess they
already know that it's unenforceable, but don't care because it's still an
effective way of bullying people. I would take this as evidence that they
would not be amenable to negotiating the non-compete, and go with option 1.

~~~
andyjdavis
>Also, be aware that even if you know it is unenforceable, the nasty letter
may scare your next employer

I am curious about this part. Why would the next employer even care, given
that they are not party to any agreement made between the individual and their
previous employer?

~~~
indymike
Interfering with a contract is a tort. If my company hires you, and you have a
non-compete, the previous employer can sue my company. It doesn't matter if
the contract is legal or not, my company will have to pony up to defend the
lawsuit. [http://www.legalmatch.com/law-library/article/wrongful-or-
to...](http://www.legalmatch.com/law-library/article/wrongful-or-tortious-
interference-with-contracts.html)

~~~
Silhouette
Although in that case, if the NCA was unenforceable, a lawyer might also have
fun reversing that principle and claiming tortious interference with the
business relationship between the employee and the new employer/prospective
employer by the former employer...

------
greenyoda
One of my favorite employment law blogs - "Screw You Guys, I'm Going Home"
(written by a lawyer) - has a number of articles on NCAs:

[http://employeeatty.blogspot.com/search/label/noncompete%20a...](http://employeeatty.blogspot.com/search/label/noncompete%20agreements)

Reading this will give you a good idea of how complex these issues they are,
how much the law varies from state to state, etc. - all good reasons to follow
the advice of all the others in this thread who have recommended consulting a
lawyer (who specializes in Texas employment law).

------
georgecmu
Everyone already suggested getting a lawyer -- follow that advice. Pick a
lawyer specializing in non-competes specifically in your area. They will be
able to advise you on reasonableness of the proposed terms and what you could
likely negotiate them down to.

Like everything else -- and you already know that -- non-compete terms are
negotiable. Your plan is pretty good. Tell them you don't have a problem with
the non-compete, but you're uncomfortable with how broad the terms are. Ask to
reduce the term (ask for 12 months, they'll likely agree on 24), geographic
area (e.g. your specific metro area instead of all of United States), and
specific area of application (e.g. "web development for internal oil&gas
applications" instead of "programming"). Worst thing that would happen is that
they'll tell you to take it or leave it.

------
whiddershins
In my experience, that amazing deal where you could never do better, usually
isn't quite as unique as you think it is. There are always exceptions.

So of course talk to a lawyer, and of course be willing to negotiate, if minor
negotiations kill the offer, there's probably a bigger problem.

But also just think through the most likely scenario, and then the worst case
scenario. Could they hire you, and fire you 1 day later and you wouldn't be
able to work for 4 years? There's a (I think Yiddish) expression: plan for the
worst, because the best will take care of itself.

------
gortok
Don't sign it.

Period.

Feel free to sign a Non Disclosure agreement, but simply do not sign a Non
Compete.

If you feel like you should sign one, talk with a lawyer first. Sometimes
they're broadly written so that it's impossible to find work in your field.
You may not see how broadly it's actually written until you take it to a
Lawyer.

If signing a non-compete is not-negotiable (a warning sign about the company),
then you should have your lawyer draft a narrow one that protects you and
offer it instead.

~~~
nathanb
I respectfully disagree with this advice. But I don't have any evidence,
anecdotal or otherwise, to back up my opinion.

Have you (or anyone else here) had direct experience in this area? Anyone had
a job offer rescinded because you refused to sign the contract as-is? Anyone
successfully tried to negotiate a non-compete?

When I went to my first job out of college, I was somewhat disturbed by the
somewhat vague NCA that was part of the contract. I felt like its vagueness
(it did not define what a "competitor" was) worked in my favor, and its
duration was just a year. I talked with the HR person who said "oh, we don't
really enforce those unless you're at the executive level anyway", and by
observation this appears to be true. We even had an executive VP leave to be
CEO of a startup which has become a direct competitor, and if there was legal
action involved they kept it quiet, since by all accounts he left on good
terms.

Sorry for the rambling and possibly unhelpful story, but tl;dr is that I feel
like "don't sign it" is not good advice.

~~~
lotsofmangos
You are giving out appalling advice.

Do not sign things that you do not wish to abide by, no matter what HR says
about it being a standard thing that is unlikely to be enforced.

If you do not agree with something in a contract you should always cross it
off the contract and have the amendment countersigned by the other party.

Employment contracts are between two parties, they are not one party dictating
terms to another and any employer who thinks they are is not worth giving your
time to anyway.

~~~
greenyoda
And speaking of HR, it's good to always remember: HR works for the company's
management, not for the employees. They routinely do things that are not in
employees' best interests.

------
mikeash
I personally wouldn't sign a non-compete unless it gave me my full salary for
the entire period I couldn't work. If that causes the deal to fall through
then so be it. A 22.8% pay raise isn't worth four years of forced
unemployment. In my opinion it's not worth _any_.

------
jamesJe
Consult with a lawyer. Amend the contract to protect both your interests with
reasonable terms. Your potential employer will not look at it negatively.

Don't just "sign it" because the NCA might not be "enforceable". You could
still find yourself out of pocket for legal fee's protecting yourself from an
injunction in the future.

------
jacques_chester
My advice is the advice I give to everyone with a legal question: get a
lawyer.

Laws vary from place to place, sometimes very widely. Only a lawyer in your
jurisdiction is trained, qualified and knowledgeable enough to answer your
particular questions.

I mean it. Get a lawyer and find out what your position is before you do
anything. The only people on the internet who give out legal advice to
strangers are _not lawyers_. Why? Because lawyers on the internet will _tell
you to go see a lawyer_.

------
jcr
The best and smartest thing to do is talk to _your_ lawyer (not theirs).

Laws regarding the validity of "Non-Compete Agreements" varies state by state,
so if you don't talk to your friendly neighborhood local lawyer (with a
specialty in employment law), then you'll most likely be following bad advice.

------
lotsofmangos
A 4 year non-compete is 10% of your working career. That doesn't sound like a
good plan unless they are offering you the moon on a stick as compensation.

------
jarin
Contracts are not a matter of take-it-or-leave-it, they can be changed and
amended before signing. As long as you can back up your reasoning, and are
fair to them, a reasonable employer should be ok with changing it. If they're
not, you may want to reconsider working there, because companies that are
overly concerned with having the legal balance tipped way in their favor over
their employees tend to be kind of hellish to work for eventually.

------
damm
Ask yourself a few simple questions.

Do You want to start a company in a similar field in the next 4 years?

If you loose this job will you be looking in a similar or same field?

Lastly it's quite possible this Non-Compete agreement could lock you out of
finding a new job for the next 4 years.

P.S. Don't listen to anyone who tells you they are unenforceable; that isn't
the point. You have to hire a Lawyer to defend yourself and that costs money;
and only if you win can you recoup that cost.

------
Nursie
Tell them you can't sign it as it puts you out of a job for four years, which
is ludicrous, and if they want your skills and experience they have to drop
it.

It's that simple.

\--edit-- Ask them if they are proposing to pay your full salary for that 4
year period!

~~~
Dewie
> Ask them if they are proposing to pay your full salary for that 4 year
> period!

Plus more for the four year experience gap (if you can't really do anything
else related to your old job).

------
rwg
You need to talk to a lawyer who specializes in Texas employment law ASAP. Do
_not_ sign anything that you do not fully understand the implications of, even
if your reading of the non-compete agreement and Texas's Covenants Not to
Compete Act makes you think the agreement is completely unenforceable.

While you're talking to the lawyer, don't forget to ask if the non-compete
agreement is still in effect in the event you're "involuntarily separated"
(sacked, with or without cause) from the company. The answer may greatly
influence your decision.

Finally, as is mentioned elsewhere in the comments here, do _not_ sign
anything because random HR person says whatever you're signing is never really
enforced. HR does not work for you, and "but so-and-so in HR said..." is not a
strong defense against your signature on a contract. If the non-compete is
never enforced, then the company should have no problem with you not signing
it.

------
stephengoodwin
4 years is too long. 12 months is the most I've ever signed. 18 months is the
most I've ever heard of (a major tech company).

------
fragmede
My advice is to ignore comments that don't explicitly mention Texas. How
enforcable a non-compete is locale specific. A quick Google search for
something like "Texas non compete enforceable" indicates that they are
partially enforcable, where-as in California they basically are not, and in
Massachusetts the current situation is murky due to the recently passed non-
compete reform bill.

If you need specifics, and don't care to spend a few days reading up on the
current situation in Texas with regards to non-compete law, then talk to
someone, whos job it is to know specifics on non-compete law (commonly called
lawyers).

------
Silhouette
Obviously everyone saying check with a lawyer is right.

In addition, if you do decide to enter into a non-compete, keep in mind that
merely guaranteeing to pay your existing salary throughout any enforced period
of unemployment is _not_ sufficient compensation.

Firstly, if you were leaving by your own choice, it would presumably be for a
better position elsewhere, so if you're locked out of that they need to
compensate you for your likely increase in remuneration.

Secondly, if you have significant time out of the industry in any technical
field, that will probably have an effect on your employability when you get
back into the job market later, and the longer the absence the greater the
damage. This needs to be compensated as well.

It seems unlikely that most employers will be willing to offer you a
reasonable figure on this basis, say 150% of your highest compensation level
during your time with them, for a four-year period after you leave. That
should tell you everything you need to know about whether you should sign a
four-year NCA.

------
mistercow
> very few companies seem to be out here

Are you able to move? There isn't exactly a shortage of dev jobs if you can
relocate, and in places where the shortage is on the labor pool size (like the
SF bay area), you shouldn't have trouble finding a company that will help you
with the move. The cost of living is higher, but you can almost certainly
compensate for that by taking a higher paying job.

Just putting that out there; it doesn't seem like there's much reason for an
engineer to feel constrained by a lack of job opportunities in today's
climate.

------
mathattack
One comment... If the non-compete is unreasonable (as this one is) it is
likely unenforceable. It's worth digging a bit on the reputation of the
company. If the company is known for going after people who leave, it's worth
not joining independent of the time period. If they don't go after people,
then don't worry.

~~~
mikeash
If they don't go after people now, they might change their approach later. If
they truly don't intend to enforce it then they shouldn't need you to sign it.

~~~
mathattack
It's a judgment call, but if you have a fear that "This might be the type that
will go after me" then that's enough to stay away.

~~~
mikeash
I really don't think it is a judgment call. Even if you are absolutely 100%
confident that you can perfectly predict the behavior of the people in charge
of the company (because you own their soul, or something), what's to say the
company is going to stay in the same hands forever?

If you don't like the terms, don't sign. If they don't intend to enforce then
they shouldn't require you to sign. If they require you to sign then that
means they might enforce it.

------
ddebernardy
Ask a lawyer if in doubt. Fwiw though, non-competes are often written in such
a way that they're unenforceable in court, on grounds that they're too broad
(you can't find work) or one-sided (no compensation).

------
Solsmed
For factoidal reference, in Sweden NCA's are pretty toothless as the company
has to prove to a court that you've directly competed with them after contract
termination (i.e. stolen their existing clients).

------
emcrazyone
My attorney once told me that NCAs are very hard to enforce because it's
essentially illegal for a company or anyone to prevent you from working for a
living is the way he put it to me. My attorney also said that if an NCA
becomes a legal matter in court, the authors of NCAs are typically more in the
hot seat because because they drafted the agreement to begin with. INAL but as
I understand it from my attorney, the author of legal agreements is the party
that typically in the "hot seat" to explain themselves in court. Perhaps a
layer can chime in and fill in the gaps.

------
altcognito
You don't need a lawyer to know that 4 years is too long and that the terms
are unpalatable.

------
snarfy
#1 Get real legal advice. That said...

Everything I've read says they are not enforceable. They cannot keep you from
working and any company that tries to enforce them _cough cough amazon_ loses
more than it's worth as all the top talent is dissuaded from ever working
there.

------
mbesto
Lawyer.

