
Hong Kong Protests Live Updates: Police Violence Puts Government on Defensive - ishikawa
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/06/12/world/asia/hong-kong-protests.html
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ChrisBland
This was an inevitable conclusion, I grew up in Hong Kong and we left in 1996
during the handover along with many other ex-pats. We saw the writing on the
wall as did many others based on how horrible the handover was going. It is a
true shame what is happening to Hong Kong now but I don't see China relenting
to pressure as that would only embolden other cities to do similar protests. I
worry for my friends who are still there as the only way this is going to end
is in a continued escalation of violence. As someone who visited Tiananmen
Square in the early 90s, it was amazing how quickly the country moved on and
refused to discuss it. I worry that is what is going to happen in HK.

~~~
tedivm
This is something I've always been confused about- what's the difference
between an "expat" and an "economic immigrant"? Is it just the origin country
or color of skin?

~~~
ajudson
Legal status in the country also probably, economic migrant is a euphemism

~~~
jacobush
euphemism for what?

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rkapsoro
The only thing that can serve to enforce the Joint Declaration (and similar
bi-lateral agreements between countries) is if the signatories uphold and
maintain their expectations of the other.

For the last two decades, China has been testing for any response on the part
of the British to encroachments on HK's autonomy. Britain has largely remained
mum, failing to call out China on increasing violations of the Joint
Declaration and the Basic Law.

Then things really accelerated with the premiership of Xi Jinping, and those
tests have come thicker and faster.

While Britain doesn't necessarily have a large amount of leverage these days
with its own problems going on, taking a principled stand on things in the
public eye is not without its benefits.

~~~
JumpCrisscross
> _While Britain doesn 't necessarily have a large amount of leverage_

Sure it does. It could probably get a small coalition of American and possible
European forces to facilitate an evacuation of the city for anyone who wants
to leave, to Hong Kong, the U.K. or the United States. There is a lot of human
capital in Hong Kong, capital that relies on competent government, fair courts
and a government with a legitimate mandate.

This isn’t happening because domestic populations in the West aren’t wholly
tuned into Hong Kong’s situation.

~~~
roenxi
> a small coalition of American and possible European forces to facilitate an
> evacuation

I've seen documents circulated by the US military where they basically said
'we aren't sure we'd win against 2018 China'.

That sort of activity is a pretty clear attack on China's sovereignty, and I
suspect the CCP would agree regardless of other possible interpretations.

The UK could break diplomatic ties and stop trading with China, but they can't
do anything involving 'forces'. It is a tragic step for Hong Kong, but end of
the day it is Chinese territory and they will get their way on anything they
insist on.

~~~
JumpCrisscross
> _I 've seen documents circulated by the US military where they basically
> said 'we aren't sure we'd win against 2018 China'_

This isn’t helpful without a source. China’s army is formidable. Its Navy,
however, is relatively weak.

In any case, this would (intentionally) never become a military conflict. The
stakes are too low for both sides. If it came to a fight, the most would be
sanctions against CPC leadership under the Magnitsky Act.

~~~
roenxi
> This isn’t helpful without a source.

US Military, either Army or Navy. I don't remember exactly what was written on
the cover. The context may have been an invasion of the mainland.

Anyway, if they want to wait a couple of years and do all this again that will
probably be an academic detail. They are almost certainly improving their navy
so they can be more pushy in the South China Sea.

> The stakes are too low for both sides.

A foreign power swooping in and offering support to dissidents? When one of
China's biggest strategic goals is enforcing unity among 1.4 billion people?
China could very easily see the situation differently.

It would be similar to Russia organising a uniformed 'humanitarian convoy'
with China and Iran, then trundled over to America to offer material support
to separatist Texans or Californians. If there was a belief it might actually
make a difference that action would provoke quite a response.

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nabla9
It seems that the government is not giving up.

The politics in HK pseudo-democracy seems complex. Is there any way to
democratically remove pro-Beijing camp from the power? Unless there is, it
seems like the government just has to weather the storm.

~~~
my_username_is_
It's exceedingly unlikely to happen (and Beijing would likely find a way to
prevent it from happening) in the legislature ("Legco"). This is due to
combination of proportional representation in the geographic constituencies,
and the fact that half the seats are taken up by functional constituencies
which are mostly pro-Beijing. And the Chief Executive is explicitly chosen
from a pool of pro-Beijing candidates, so that wouldn't happen unless the law
is changed. (The law that enacted this in 2014 was one of the sparks for the
so-called "Umbrella Revolution")

Some relevant wiki articles:

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_NPCSC_Decision_on_Hong_Ko...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_NPCSC_Decision_on_Hong_Kong)

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legislative_Council_of_Hong_Ko...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legislative_Council_of_Hong_Kong#Membership_composition)

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exabrial
I hope these people stay strong when the heavy handed crackdown occurs. This
time there are millions of cameras watching.

~~~
megous
That's of very little comfort in today's world.

For example: People in EU can see footage of drowning people trying to cross
the mediteranean sea, and react by punishing the orgnizations who try to help.

Really, the interpretation of events matters much much more, than some
footage.

~~~
vanattab
I think he is referring to the millions of Chinese government cameras with
facial recognition.

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digianarchist
China is going to use these protests as an excuse to accelerate taking control
of Hong Kong.

~~~
pm90
If Democracy were to die in HK, I think it’s better for it to die this way
rather than a silent squeal like what has happened here in America. The
executive runs roughshod ignoring laws and subpoenas, the idiot President
openly invites foreign assistance to win elections and not a single protest
among over 300 million so called Patriotic Americans.

~~~
kmonsen
100% agree. It shocks me a little bit how few protests there are in the US
right now.

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pastyboy
We trade with China so readily without even a thought of the kind of dark
totalitarian regime reigns, anything for profit right ?

Feel very sorry for the HK citizens but there is nothing the UK can do, HK
being returned to China was seen as part of the end of UK influence which
(people wanted?), meaning we have 0 influence now.

However being under the sphere of China's political surveillance system is
clearly not what anybody wanted.

I noted with interest how citizens binned all digital methods of payment and
comms to avoid be prosecuted for being at the demonstrations retrospectively
and presumably extradited to some prison factory in China if the extradition
dictat gets through.

Anyway IMHO Trump has inadvertently tried to reset the balance and caused the
Chinese alot of problems by starving them of tech know how and trade. But as
we know Presidents come and go - Communist China is eternal - they will just
wait for the next leader to turn around and sell out everyone.

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kenneth
A key difference to understand between protests in America and in Hong Kong is
that there is no division in Hong Kong about the issue. In the US, for
example, half of the population opposes Trump and half supports him. There are
anti-Trump protests and pro-Trump rally. The US is divided on many issues.

In Hong Kong, the whole population is united against the government. The
territory is democratic on paper, but no longer in practice and basically run
by the CCP.

(Note, recently moved from the US to HK and went to see the protests for
myself yesterday, though I didn't actively participate)

~~~
codezero
I’d like to believe that but just yesterday someone posted links to a Chinese
news site showing lots of visible support for the pro government side. Lots of
signs in the city showing support and a fleet of fishing boats with signs.
Even if this is pure propaganda it shows there is visible support (even if
artificial).

~~~
my_username_is_
Upwards of 1 million people were at the protest this past Sunday. There's only
a population of 7 million people in the entire SAR. That's the proportional
equivalent of every man, woman &child in California, Oregon and Washington
meeting in a single spot to protest something. Even if not everyone agrees on
the exact details of what they're protesting, seeing that much passionate
support behind a cause is a good indicator that the outrage is widespread.

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88840-8855
Police brutality is pure shit and has to be internally investigated and
transparently resolved.

However, I dislike the current biased image and video reporting on Hong Kong
protests. I understand that this plays perfectly into the current anti-China
narrative, but we should be aware that such things are never one-sided and
simple.

There is a lot of shit going on from both sides: police and violent
protesters. To make a balance to the highly inacceptable police behaviour,
please also find footage speaking against violent protesters:

Protestors "arming up":
[https://i.redd.it/faobvwh4qx331.jpg](https://i.redd.it/faobvwh4qx331.jpg)

Protestors beating up a police man:
[https://www.reddit.com/r/HongKong/comments/bzza2h/peaceful_p...](https://www.reddit.com/r/HongKong/comments/bzza2h/peaceful_protestors_won_battle_against_police/)

The moment when it escalated (the protestors goal was to storm the building,
police was behaving in a de-escalative way by withdrawing, while being
attacked by objects thrown into the police lines):
[https://www.twitch.tv/videos/437882587?t=03h05m00s](https://www.twitch.tv/videos/437882587?t=03h05m00s)

Coverage of protestors behaving aggressively:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZQfOfIAexzw&feature=youtu.be](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZQfOfIAexzw&feature=youtu.be)

Again, all this does NOT excuse any tit for toe police brutality attack. But I
am a believer of fair and balanced reporting and I want to see both sides.

~~~
jacobush
Yes, I felt something in tune with that. I sympathize with people protesting
the China machine taking over. But storming a parliament rarely ends well, and
I respect substantial efforts to prevent that, especially in a somewhat
functioning democracy such as Hong Kong still is.

~~~
aaomidi
...the parliament is literally ignoring millions of people on the streets.

At some point you make violent protest and revolution inevitable. Peace for
the sake of peace is useless and an extremely centrist view.

~~~
jacobush
There is a threshold, I know too little about the situation to say whether my
personal one would be reached if I lived there.

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Mikeb85
Police 'violence'? Have they never been to America? Or seen any G8 meeting in
Canada or Europe? Talk about propaganda...

~~~
huac
Yes, Americans are #1 in the world for police violence. And congratulations to
us!

edit: I earlier said that this was the first time HK used teargas/rubber
bullets, which is inaccurate. the important thing is that this is still
violence, just because the US beats everyone in terms of sheer
scale/frequency/intensity of police violence doesn't mean that this isn't
police violence.

~~~
my_username_is_
Tear gas was definitely used in '14, see this image from the Umbrella Movement
protests:

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Hong_Kong_protests#/media...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Hong_Kong_protests#/media/File:2014_Hong_Kong_Umbrella_Revolution_as_Police_Attacked_Peaceful_Demonstrators_with_Tear_Gas_%E9%A6%99%E6%B8%AF%E6%B8%A3%E6%89%93%E9%9D%A9%E5%91%BD%E4%B9%8B%E5%92%8C%E5%B9%B3%E6%8A%97%E8%AD%B0%E7%9A%84%E9%A6%99%E6%B8%AF%E4%BA%BA%E6%B0%91%E4%BB%A5%E9%9B%A8%E5%82%98%E5%B0%8D%E6%8A%97%E7%99%BC%E7%A4%BE%E5%82%AC%E6%B7%9A%E5%BD%88%E7%9A%84%E6%B8%AF%E8%AD%A6.jpg)

Multiple sources also mention rubber bullets being used in '14 as well:

[https://www.google.com/search?q=umbrella+revolution+rubber+b...](https://www.google.com/search?q=umbrella+revolution+rubber+bullets&rlz=1C1CHBF_enUS745US745&source=lnt&tbs=cdr%3A1%2Ccd_min%3A%2Ccd_max%3A6%2F1%2F2019&tbm=)

~~~
huac
ah, you're right, I misread the SCMP coverage yesterday, guess when they said
"tear gas was used for the first time" that it was the first time ever, and
not just within the protests this time.

the NYT article also has:

"The use of rubber bullets represented a turning point in the police response
and was the first time the government acknowledged using the nonlethal rounds
in Hong Kong in decades. The police response following the protesters’ push
toward the Legislative Council was noticeably more aggressive as peaceful
protests became more pitched throughout the day."

So maybe the use of force hasn't changed vs 2014, but the government's
brazenness has.

