
H-1B visa: Government says work ban for H-4 spouses coming this month - Areading314
https://www.mercurynews.com/2019/05/22/h-1b-visa-government-says-work-ban-for-h-4-spouses-coming-this-month/
======
cosmodisk
Such a moronic idea.I appreciate there's an argument on who should be allowed
to enter the country and live there legally, however this isn't part of it.
What is the benefit for that person not to work? How does the state or
Americans benefit from it?This is second only to the UK,where refugees are not
allowed to work,even though the applications take years to be processed.

------
rdl
I wonder if a viable H-1B reform would be a mix of a much higher cash wage
floor (maybe indexed by geography, but $80-100k across the US, and $150-200k
in a place like SF or NY), a requirement that they be hired by firms with at
least n (=10?) US citizen or PR employees for every H1B (thus solving the
Wipro/infosys problem), and then eliminating the quotas, making them H-1B
portable across employers with a ~90 day window, etc.

The "n citizen jobs per m foreign jobs" is a common international founder/key
employee visa requirement. Maybe make it 10x payroll for citizen/pr vs. h-1b,
but there should also be an "n jobs over $x/yr ratio" to prevent the single
investor/owner having a $30mm/yr salary, and then 30 x $100k H-1B jobs)

Otherwise, I'm in favor of scrapping H-1B in favor of an explicitly loosened
O-1 which largely meets the same purposes as above.

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jmpman
There is a major problem with tech employment in this country. I used to
support a tech heavy company in St Louis, a city with over 50% black
population. What percentage of the employees were black? Guess it depends upon
what percentage of employees were security guards.

The US minority population is dramatically underrepresented in tech. Reduce
the competition for entry level tech positions, and their numbers will grow.

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robbrit
Can someone clarify for me? When I was on an H-1B, I was explicitly told that
my wife who was on an H-4 was not allowed to work. What has changed?

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cletus
The administration had been making some cautiously encouraging noises about
fixes to this system. I wonder now if those voices were drowned out or the
administration is just schizophrenic and this is the work of another part of
the administration.

This right-to-work for H4s isn't the problem. Don't get me wrong: it sucks for
those affected and it's arbitrarily capricious but it's not the problem.

Oh and BTW the US immigration system as a whole is arbitrarily capricious.
This is some combination of "they're stealing our jobs" and an effort to
discourage immigration in general, psychologically lumping those that sneak
across the border with highly-skilled workers into the same bucket.

Some examples:

\- If your green card is lost or stolen it costs $400 to replace it but,
worse, it takes 8-12+ months at current queue times to get a replacement. The
US government can get a US citizen a passport in a day if it needs to.

\- Lose it while overseas and you're in for a world of hurt to re-enter the US
(and then go through the above process to get it replaced).

\- Your Labor Certification ("LC") can get audited. This sounds fine but it's
really not. USCIS has a stated goal of not having applicants figure out their
auditing criteria so they RANDOMLY audit a some applications. The total number
of audited LCs is estimated to be ~30%.

\- If your LC is audited, this just randomly adds 12-18+ months to your
process depending on how many times USCIS can send you Requests for Evidence
("RFEs"). Yes this can happen more than once. Personally I know of one case
where there were 3 separate RFEs for a FAANG engineer that added >2.5 years to
the process.

\- Green cards have quotas by country of birth. H1Bs do not. This, primarily,
is the cause of the massive logjam particularly for India but, to a lesser
extent, also for China, Mexico and the Phillipines (depending on the visa
category).

\- It is common for applications at various stages to get stuck where nothing
happens for months for no real reason. This is so common that there is a
procedure for dealing with it: writing to your local Senator or congressman
and having their office file an inquiry with USCIS. Not everyone knows this
but this tends to unstick things within a week. Why it gets stuck in the first
place is a mystery.

\- Once your case is assigned to a particular examiner, you're stuck with that
examiner. They will process their applications on a FIFO basis and one
examiner may be particularly slow compared to another for no readily apparent
reason. Worse, different examiners will apply the same rule differently in
that in a given situation one will ask for an additional form where another
wouldn't. And yes that adds another 3-6 months to the process as your updated
submission goes to the back of their queue.

\- There are several time windows you need to be aware of. With sufficient
delays some of your supporting documentation may be out of date. And bingo,
that's another go around.

\- Getting married on a green card won't really help your spouse at all. There
are years long delays for sponsoring your spouse and they'll enjoy no relevant
status before then. The general advice is you'll start this process and finish
it probably after naturalization (which is a far quicker process).

So what is the core problem that needs to be fixed? Easy. The abuse of the
system by Indian IT outsourcing companies. For these companies, the 10+ year
delays in getting a green card for Indian-born people is a feature not a bug
because that's longer they can keep them in what is not that far from
indentured servitude.

These people aren't highly-skilled and aren't highly-paid. They're taking
spots that could otherwise go to highly-skilled and highly-paid people at
FAANG type companies.

Other commenters are right in that a simple minimum pay could have a lot of
loopholes. Being "total compensation" with inflated values on "benefits" is
just one way. Another is, say, overcharging for services that are described as
optional but really aren't, like food or accomodation.

Want to see examples of how desperate people are trapped by these sorts of
"fees" into essentially perpetual debt? Look no further than India's brick
kilns [1].

[1] [https://www.antislavery.org/what-we-do/india-debt-
bondage/](https://www.antislavery.org/what-we-do/india-debt-bondage/)

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throwaway082729
Sigh. Will have to move to Canada or home after 17 years of living here. My
kid, an American citizen, doesn't want to move but this is going to devastate
my wife who has only recently started to work in the education field and I
can't continue living here regardless of how much money I make.

~~~
deepVoid
I would be happy to go back to India to build my own country. India is growing
fast and can use some talent.

~~~
throwaway082729
Personal reasons why I cannot go back easily. Going back is a last ditch
option for me.

------
yalogin
I thought they weren't allowed to work for a while now. How is this new?

~~~
vsskanth
Initially they weren't. Then there was an obama era executive order that
allowed work authorization for dependents of H1B, provided they have an
approved green card petition. Mostly only Indians use it because they have the
biggest backlog in getting green cards.

The current administration plans to revoke it so its going through its
procedures.

~~~
yalogin
Ah that’s the part I was missing. So people on H4 cannot work until they get
their green cards in hand. Thanks for the explanation.

------
wyxuan
H4 is notorious for not allowing spouses to leave their abusive H-1B partners
(because they are dependent). Working is a way to allow them to have some
breathing room when it comes to these relationships.

~~~
the_common_man
The problem is more complicated because most Indians have arranged marriages
where the women has a bit of less power to begin with

------
stunt
H1B is the US economy nuclear weapon. especially in tech, science, and
research. The US imports top talents while the country hasn't paid any
subsidies for their education, development, medicine, growth, childbirth and
you name it. And they have to come and spend money to establish their life
after relocation.

It is necessary to have a minimum wage to make sure companies will priorities
local talents. The "n citizen jobs per m foreign jobs" model sometimes create
busy-work but I think that is a fair combination to wage floor.

I believe it is important to do everything to help integrate skilled workers
to society. Make them feel they belong. They are more valuable assets if they
stay. Of course it has to be in accordance with population and unemployment
metrics.

There is this annoying double standard currently. If they invest and spend in
the US we complain, and if they remittance to the home country again we
complain. And now this work ban is like telling them mine and run because we
don't want you here.

------
exwiki
This is just sad.

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anonymous_i
I will throw a different perspective here on why tightening regulations on H-4
spouse work is important:

\- Fact is everyone comes to the US to have a better economic life.

\- Even asylum seekers, would want to move to the US over any other
progressive European nation , because, American Dream, easy upwards mobility,
diversity. This is a personal observation.

Let me shed some light on how it works for Indian people. You can extrapolate
it to other entities too.

    
    
      - Indian girls in general conveniently marry a US living 
        husband of their parents choice(not all but many), and 
        compete for the same jobs with kids who finished their 
        Masters Degrees here.
    
      - H-1B visa system is fucked up. Infosys and Wipro and 
        TCS ship tons of their employees to the US.These people 
        work at a price less than the current market price.
    

\- This is bad for three reasons:

    
    
       - Kids don't want to come to the United States to do their Masters because, job market 
         is tight. Its bad for schools and kids too. Schools for those foreign dollars, for kids- its important to have
         an exposure to outside world - this helps shape world view in a tremendously good way.
    
       - These people are employed mostly to replace existing American workers.
    
       - From my observations, the reason I am biased in favouring kids coming here for 
         Masters is because, with in the time it takes to finish their education, and the 
         time it takes to find a job, they imbibe American culture. This may sound silly, but 
         it is very important. These people at some time will become citizens and will become 
         part of national discourse. 
    
      - Contractors shipped by Infosys and Wipro and TCS could never be part of that. It is 
        hardly possible. Again , its a personal observation. 
    

\- So , how do all these things tie together

    
    
       - Someone who finishes his Masters in the United States is expected to find a job with in three months of his 
         OPT(Optional Practical Training) start date.
    
       - Now these people are mostly by themselves and invested heavily for their education. No reason why these people 
         flock to so called 'consultancies'.
    
       - Compare that to the spouses of existing H-1B visa holders, who never invested anything here. No cultural 
         investment, nor education. They have a security to live here for as long as their relatively smart husband is 
         allowed to live. With unlimited amount of time compared to some one with a Masters degree, they are at a 
         disproportionate advantage.
    
       - People finishing Masters should be given precedence over H4 spouses and H-1B's(for reasons above) hired by 
         outsourcing companies.
    
       - There is more to it than we know.For all the xenophobia, this administration is displaying there are times, 
         they are not wrong.

~~~
conanbatt
> Kids don't want to come to the United States to do their Masters because,
> job market is tight.

US has lowest unemployment in decades. The tightness is on employers.

> These people are employed mostly to replace existing American workers.

As solid economic thinking as saying US should ban all imports, since that
takes jobs from americans

~~~
anonymous_i
> Kids don't want to come to the United States to do their Masters because,
> job market is tight. US has lowest unemployment in decades. The tightness is
> on employers.

Sorry, I think , you misread my comment or rather may be I wasnt clear enough.

I meant kids don't want to come , if the job market is tight.

------
elisharobinson
i dont know why this is an issue

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jtagx
And down goes the GDP and tax income for the society

~~~
the_common_man
Doubt it. This program only started 3-4 years ago.

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duxup
I wish they would just set the H-1B minimum pay to $120k a year or something.

~~~
ones_and_zeros
Yes, auctions will be similarly gamed.

I think one easy thing to do to ensure that small cos and rural areas still
have access is to require all h1b hires to be level 4, the highest level. As
it stands now more than 70% are hired at levels 1 and 2 (2018 data), which are
essentially "below average" which is weird for a program aimed at bringing in
those with hard to find skills.

~~~
duxup
I was browsing the H-1B data out there. Some jobs seemed like borderline first
level customer service jobs when I went looking at what was at the location
listed.....way way not the kind of job that is hard to find people for...
provided you pay reasonably well.

~~~
vsskanth
It's a bimodal distribution.

H1B doesn't really have a job market test. You just need to justify it's a job
that requires a bachelor's degree and pays whatever the DOL wage data says
should be the prevailing wage for that classification. It's not that difficult
to game the system by playing around with job level, title and location and
getting away with the lowest possible pay. This is basically the business
model of staffing agencies and contractors.

It's also being used by many genuine employers looking for talent and highly
specialized skills. Cost isn't a concern here as their business model relies
on making the best product.

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NTDF9
This is basically the government discouraging family oriented people (perhaps
the exact model immigrants that most countries want).

~~~
nonamechicken
Considering that 93 percent of the approximately 100,000 H4 spouses are women
from India, its clear at whom it is targeted. And the changes in h1b seems to
be working as indented.

>The US is no longer seen as a plum posting by senior IT services employees
(of Indian IT companies).

[https://www.livemint.com/opinion/columns/opinion-how-it-
serv...](https://www.livemint.com/opinion/columns/opinion-how-it-service-
firms-can-adapt-to-the-h-1b-visa-squeeze-1558341524290.html)

>IT giant Infosys recently blamed the denial of H-1B visas by United States
(US) for part of its growing employee attrition and said that it would
introduce a "new value proposition" to help retain employees.

[https://www.businesstoday.in/sectors/jobs/infosys-h1b-visa-e...](https://www.businesstoday.in/sectors/jobs/infosys-h1b-visa-
employee-attrition-infosys-blames-h-1b-visa-denials-for-high-
attrition/story/337437.html)

~~~
dominotw
> IT giant Infosys recently blamed the denial of H-1B visas by United States
> (US) for part of its growing employee attrition

lol so funny. their main perk was chance to get h-1b visa and to blame us govt
for not giving it to them.

~~~
nonamechicken
I don't think they were blaming the government. Just citing it as one of the
issues in their quarterly shareholder report.

One of the main ways these companies retain people was this: give the employee
promise of onsite deputation if you work for 1-2 years in this project. Now
the companies are forced to give them a decent raise or promotion or better
projects.

It sucks for 2 people I know who had been working like that for the last 3-4
years. Their work day usually ends at midnight and sometimes 1 am-2am (instead
of 6.45 pm). They stayed in that project because they thought one day they
could go to US. Their employer applied for their visas, but got denied.

~~~
dominotw
ah gotcha. sorry i misread your comment.

------
simplecomplex
More hateful unnecessary government regulation that harms people just trying
to work and make a life for themselves.

------
paxys
Even if the administration does actually issue a ruling (which they have been
sitting on for years now), it will immediately be challenged in courts and
remain there indefinitely. Like everything else it's meant to be a talking
point for Trump at his rallies, nothing more.

------
ones_and_zeros
I dont think this will pass and my best guess is this is the administration
getting FAANG to play ball.

But... if it does, how will it work? I did read the article but it wasnt clear
if current h4 employees would be grandfathered? I work at a place with a few
hundred h1b engineers and it seems their spouses fill the product/project
management roles. If they arent grandfathered it'd be catastrophic for the
company I work for, never mind places the size of FAANG companies.

~~~
chrisseaton
> and it seems their spouses fill the product/project management roles

Could they get their own H-1B visa in their own right like anyone else would?
Why do they need to piggy back off their spouse’s visa?

~~~
screye
Unless there are plans to expand the H-1B to accept more applications, I don't
see how further stressing already overloaded VISA program would help.

Without extra Masters reservation, the odds of getting an H-1B are really low.
(25%?), That's about 50% of the population on the H4 that would be unemployed
for ~2 years.

What company will tentatively hire an employee until they get an H1B in what
could be 3-4 years ?

------
sys_64738
This is morally and ethically wrong. If the H4 visa holder has the right to
work in the past then you can't revoke it. Those already working should be
grandfathered in.

~~~
masonic
It's _legally_ correct.

The H-4 expansion Obama did, just like his DACA expansion, was illegal, as the
Fifth Circuit has already established. The Trump administration is simply
following the law by withdrawing the illegal expansion that the DHS lacked
legal authority to do. The H-4 specific lawsuit from Save Jobs USA is using
the same principle from the Fifth Circuit decision.

The legal way to have done H-4 or DACA was with appropriate legislation during
the time the Democrats held the Presidency, the House, and a filibuster-proof
Senate majority... yet they chose to do absolutely _no_ changes in immigration
law (DACA or other amnesty, H-4 or other expansion). In fact, Senator Schumer
railed _against_ amnesty himself in multiple floor speeches. Now, ask yourself
why that is.

~~~
diebeforei485
I'm not even sure where to begin.

1\. There is plenty of distinction from the Fifth Circuit decision - for
example DAPA and expanded DACA deal with folks present in the country
illegally, while H-4 spouses have legal status. Another distinction is that
the H-4 work authorization is interstitial - it only applies to those with an
approved green card petition, and bridges the gap until the green card is
received. That does not apply to DAPA.

2\. That Fifth Circuit case was never decided on its merits - it just upheld a
preliminary injunction from the district court.

~~~
masonic

      That Fifth Circuit case was never decided on its merits - it just upheld a preliminary injunction from the district court.
    

That's all the Courts of Appeal _ever_ do; they don't retry the testimony or
evidence of a case in search of its "merits". What distinction are you trying
to make?

------
andr
It would have been much smarter to have spouse visas count towards the H1B
quota, while guaranteeing that if one partner is selected in the lottery, the
other is picked, too. Right now, if a couple with active careers want to move
to the US together, chances are one spouse has to abandon their career for
several years and not be allowed to contribute to the economy. Or, the couple
will just go elsewhere.

~~~
chipperyman573
If being married would double your chances of being picked then that would
just lead to a bunch of people getting married to get a H-1B. Similar to a
green card marriage but neither of the people are citizens already. I agree
that this is absolutely a problem but there would have to be a different
solution.

~~~
syrrim
Could be corrected for by having couples enter the lottery as a unit, or
halving the odds for each person entering as part of a couple.

~~~
candiodari
Check what happens when you multiply odds. That will mean the odds for any
married person to get an H1B take a nosedive or essentially never happens if
there is real competition.

~~~
chipperyman573
If each person has half the chance of a normal person and since if either one
are chosen then the other is chosen, wouldn't their odds be (1/2 + 1/2) = 1
unweighted chance of being selected?

Multiplying the odds by 2 (making your chance 2/4) lets you use this analogy:
If you had a bag with 2 marbles labeled 1, along with and one 2 and one 3
marble, your chance of drawing either a 2 or a 3 is the same as drawing the 1
marble. This still works if you add more marbles to the mix, as long as
they're weighted to be pulled twice as often as the 2 or 3 marble.

------
mrtksn
I find the working visa concept ridiculous. Why would a nationality be a topic
in the hiring process? It's ridiculous to have the government involved in the
hiring process and the first vetting step towards employment being the
immigration office.

Yes, I understand the problems that limitless free movement might create but
it's still unpleasant to see that people claiming to be egalitarian or people
who say that want meritocracy to discuss only the implementation details of
the visa system in the context of exceptions(i.e. you cannot work in this
country except if you personally meet the following criteria).

Why not create a system that is fair at the core, something like "your
passport countries' democracy score, worker rights, environmental protection
standards and human rights need to be in the same range as the country you
want to work at". The visa-free travel and visa-free working right essentially
boil down to this anyway, why not remove all the exceptions and let people
optimize their countries towards these metrics if they want to work in some
other country?

In the current form, immigration is painful for the immigrants and doesn't do
any good for the countries that send those immigrants.

~~~
jldugger
> it's still unpleasant to see that people claiming to be egalitarian or
> people who say that want meritocracy

What ever gave you the impression that the "America #1" crowd was either of
those things?

~~~
mrtksn
The populists say all the time that they want meritocracy and complain that
those women/minorities/immigrants are hired based on their
gender/race/passport instead of their skills.

They are populist probably because these opinions are popular.

~~~
nl
I think you'll find that the "America First" crowd and the "Meritocracy" crowd
are listening to different parts of the arguments from the same people, and
just hearing what they want to hear.

I _think_ there is a strand in their argument that being American is a merit
in itself, but this isn't usually stated explicitly except in forms like
"Americans for American Jobs".

I'm not arguing this makes any logical sense though - it doesn't.

~~~
mrtksn
I see your point. However, even if being an American(or any other nationality)
was merit by itself, why would you demand government involvement in the hiring
process?

If being an American is a merit, then companies could choose to hire based on
this merit.

I'm just trying to understand that way of thinking. Maybe they think it's a
merit but are insecure about it and demand recognition for because their
experience shows that companies do not value this merit enough?

~~~
pas
Maybe the best way to look at this is to recognize that people have concepts
of how the world should look like, naturally that usually includes
pleasantries for them. And when the world does not match their predictions,
they want to correct for this error. Of course depending on cognitive patterns
(which depend on exposure to others' cognition, eg. upbringing, peers, and all
their previous experiences factor in to path dependence) one might try to look
into themselves, look for their faulty base assumptions, look for causes
external to their own sphere, and so on.

Normally, people who are not familiar with the problems of borders, the
arbitrariness of them, who grew up in a culture that never experienced a
downsizing country, a war in their country, stories about how political
persecution and/or absolutely bleak prospects drove hundreds of thousands (or
millions) of their fellow countrymen away are not going to be very
understanding of these problems. On the other hand they will understand that
their life is not going as well as they would like it. And they are caught by
the meme net cast by whatever lucky political group. (And "blaming the victim"
fused with "the outside enemy" is a pretty proven strategy for populists.)

And populists always advocate for more power to themselves to fix things.
(Obviously, politics is about power, and populism is pretty much the shit tier
direct marketing of politics.)

Hence the thinking of "america first", "make america great first", before we
deal with whatever is outside our borders. This also implies that listen to
"americans first", and then listen to any external criticism. (This is again
always a pretty great strategy to consolidate power - a form of divide and
conquer.) And naturally, this has the effect of basically diverting the
attention away from global issues.

And since we're living in a global world for quite some time, without at least
partially understanding global issues making sense of the local ones is a
fool's errand. Because a thinking that tries to somehow understand everything
locally inevitably runs into "outside powers caused this to us", and this
feeds powerlessness. (It doesn't matter that the USA has and had a very
significant factor in shaping that "outside world".)

------
docker_up
In an era of ultra-low unemployment rates, I don't see who this is protecting.
If anything it's hurting US businesses by denying willing workers.

~~~
davidw
This is an insightful piece:

[https://www.theroot.com/yes-trump-voters-will-stick-with-
him...](https://www.theroot.com/yes-trump-voters-will-stick-with-him-
forever-1795488790)

It's not about doing the right thing for the economy, it's about pissing
off/hurting 'the libruhls'.

~~~
powerslacker
> America is, at its core, a nasty, venal, selfish and racist culture.

No bias to see here folks. Move along.

Trump voters and conservatives rarely care about pissing off liberals.
Remember the internet is a crazy place where those who shout the loudest get
the most attention. The vast majority of people are relatively sane and aren't
out to hurt anybody. I'd encourage you to have an honest conversation with a
few Trump voters before making blanket accusations.

People seem to think that all Trump voters care about is the economy. In
reality, most of the ones I've met care deeply about their families and their
country. They tend to see left wing policies as a threat to their future and
the future of their children.

~~~
mactrey
And how exactly would allowing H-4 spouses to work be a threat to their future
and the future of their children?

~~~
ycombonator
Depresses wages

