
The Problem with Patriotism/Nationalism - cwan
http://mattmaroon.com/2009/12/02/patriotism-is-stupid/
======
callmeed
_"So when I buy a shirt, whether the job of making it went to an American or a
Chinese person, someone got paid and I’m happy for that."_

While I (think I) understand the heart of this sentiment, if you're going to
be non-patriotic, you should still be pro-human rights to some degree.

If a corporation exploits workers (either at home or abroad), you shouldn't be
happy about giving them your money. Yes, the _"anti-establishment, local-
everything"_ crowd takes this to the extreme, but I still think it should be a
factor in your decision-making.

~~~
gloob
_While I (think I) understand the heart of this sentiment, if you're going to
be non-patriotic, you should still be pro-human rights to some degree.

If a corporation exploits workers (either at home or abroad), you shouldn't be
happy about giving them your money._

I'm not certain I understand precisely your argument; I have the impression
that you're referring to the sweatshops and similar? I wouldn't put "A minimum
wage of $foo" under the header of "human rights", myself, which is why I think
I'm missing your point a bit.

On the assumption that I understand it, however, and the primary complaint
against these companies is that they pay their workers very little, I would
like to ask: what other options do the companies actually have? Paying the
workers anything like a first-world wage would probably cause all sorts of fun
with inflation. Paying them a third-world wage is evil. Is the solution to
just not have employees in (e.g.) China at all? (Honest question.)

But, again, I probably misunderstood your point.

~~~
callmeed
Perhaps "human rights" is too broad an umbrella, but I still think it applies.

My primary complaint is _not_ about wage. It's about the treatment of workers
in general. Unsafe conditions, unsustainable hours, exposure to chemicals,
dangerous equipment, forced labor, physical abuse, etc. And, yes, people can
be underpaid even relative to their cost of living.

Combine those things with governments that afford little or no transparency
and you have what amounts to a "human rights" problem (in my opinion).

Seriously, it's not hard to find reports on working conditions in China ...
yes, I know they aren't all bad ... but it aint Willy Wonka's chocolate
factory over there. Nothing wrong with putting a little research and thought
into your purchasing decisions–that was my point.

Oh, and I don't think your last question was _honest_ ... because it makes no
sense. The solution obviously isn't to have no employees in China.

------
coffeemug
I think patriotism is just a special case of misusing the word "we". As in "we
put a man on the moon". No you didn't. Hundreds of physicists, mathematicians,
engineers, workmen, and men (and women) with really big balls put a man on the
moon. _You_ had almost nothing to do with it (other than being forced to
provide an infinitesimal part of the funding, but that's hardly _your_
achievement).

~~~
holograham
Putting a man on the moon would not have been possible without the funding
that was supplied by the American people so yes WE is appropriate.

------
J_McQuade
As sort of an aside: I'm living in England, and have a friend with a very
(English) nationalistic bent - and he actually identifies far more with, say,
our Indian or Polish communities than he does with the angry, ignorant, BNP
style person that would have them "go home", as he sees them as having a far
greater sense of their heritage than the baseball-cap wearing, drum-and-bass
club-frequenting, take-away chomping thralls that have "lost all sense of
their national identity".

How important any of this is is definitely open to debate (we argue about it
all the time, actually), but he's a smart guy with an interesting point of
view, and I think he serves as a good example of why you shouldn't
automatically associate patriotism/nationalism with racism, protectionism and
bigotry.

That said, though, he is probably quite an exception in this regard.

------
javert
"Patriotism is your conviction that this country is superior to all other
countries because you were born in it."

There's a critical difference between _nationalism_ and _patriotism_. What
that quote is talking about is nationalism.

Here is what the quote should say:

"Patriotism is your conviction that this country is _good_ because its people,
culture and government are fundamentally moral."

By "moral," I mean "good for human life."

It's right to be patriotic about America. In this country, more than anywhere
in the world, people are _free_. Free to live their own lives, to generate
wealth, and to generate happiness. And we have a culture that supports reason,
productiveness, and life in general.

Of course there are lots of exceptions to that, like protracted and pointless
wars in the Middle East, but those are not fundamental artifacts of the
conception of America; they are side-effects of bad culture today.

~~~
coffeemug
By your definition of patriotism, there is no such thing in practice. It
always degrades from loving your country because you were born in it, to
hating other countries because you weren't born in them. It's extremely rare
to see a benevolent version of patriotism the way you describe it.

~~~
gaius
_It's extremely rare to see a benevolent version of patriotism the way you
describe it._

I see it every weekend at Rugby matches.

------
known
I think Political Leadership allover the world want their _voters to be
subservient_ and they mask this is as Patriotism/Nationalism

------
johndevor
Is this suitable for HN?

~~~
J_McQuade
It's something to think about. That's HN in a nutshell, as far as I'm
concerned.

~~~
johndevor
What do you _not_ think about (just playing devil's advocate here)?

~~~
J_McQuade
Now there's an infinitely-answerable question! I don't think bout what would
happen if my pineal gland turned into trifle, or the implications of the
increasing variety of hair-care products on Afro-Vietnamese relations, or how
many M&Ms it would take to fill my shoe (though I admit that the latter
question could well turn up in one of these trendy job-interviews we keep
hearing about - get researching!)

Basically, I don't think about those things (in any depth, at least) because
nobody else does. Subjects such as the double-edged sword of nationalism etc.
plague our collective consciousness and as such are worth the brain-cycles, if
you're that way inclined.

