
Ask HN: how do you avoid burnout and getting taken advantage of? - jquery
I'm 3 years out of college. The first year my product made the CEO a million dollars while I made less than $50k in salary and 0.01% equity. Ugh. I moved to another company which paid double that, and worked like a dog (80 hours weeks) for nearly two years, and was one of the most productive engineers.  One of my products helped bring in over 6 million in VC investment money. After two years I asked for a raise, and didn't receive one, being told "we can't give raises during layoffs."<p>When I told them I was quitting, they offered me a giant (&#62;25%) raise, but I couldn't stomach the thought of staying after accepting another offer, so I moved to another startup. I took my first project from $50 to $700+ daily revenue in 2 months by working 100 hours weeks. Yet because I take a modest salary, and have significant but non-founder equity (1-2%) to be vested over 4 years, I feel like I'm just making other people rich. I'm starting to become depressed. My sex life with my girlfriend has become non-existent. I dream about the rewards of hard work--I want to travel, to live the good life--but then I look at my life and see my twenties beginning to slip away, with a high likelihood of nothing but memories of hard work and my morning coffee to replace them. My company would have to be acquired for $10 million, at the very least, to make a very modest improvement to my lifestyle, and over $50 million to make any significant difference.<p>Am I being too impatient, or am I simply having my twenties milked by charismatic CEOs who know how to exploit eager young workers, and how can I even tell the difference? What is the best thing I can do, right now, to take control of my professional life? Is it okay to ask for more salary just two months into a position? I feel exhausted and exploited.
======
nostrademons
Take more risks.

There's this idea that's beaten into us as children: our success depends upon
how hard we work. That's only true insofar as zero effort probably equals zero
reward. In reality, your reward is much more proportional to the risks you
take (and of course, you have to be lucky and skillful enough to see that risk
pan out).

You have to understand the bargain that you are making when you accept an
employment offer. You are pledging your effort in exchange for a mostly-fixed
amount of cash. In return, the company bears the (not insignificant) risk that
your project will be a failure in the marketplace.

My last project made more money for the company than I will ever earn in wages
during my lifetime. However, there's a good chance that my current project
will _lose_ more money for the company than my last project made. And then
future projects that it enables will hopefully make all that back. At my
previous employer, I completed two projects that were big successes inside the
company and big failures in the marketplace. The point is that my employer is
bearing the risk, not I. I knew that was the tradeoff that I made when I
accepted their offer.

If I were in your position (and I have been, several times), I'd ask myself:
given the startup ideas I have, what are my chances of success? And what can
possible employment opportunities give me that will increase those chances of
success for future startup ideas? Part of playing your hand well is knowing
when to fold, and part is knowing when you're right and everyone else is wrong
and you ought to double-down.

In other words, you should think more like a hedge fund manager and less like
a programmer.

~~~
noonespecial
Well said. I was trying to figure out how to work that in to my above reply
and couldn't quite get it.

I've heard hundreds of people in my career talk about how much money the
project they worked on made for the company and how they felt shortchanged,
but I've never once heard someone ask how much of their salary they should
give back when a project tanks...

------
edw519
Wow! You have had what seems like an ideal first three years after college and
all you see are negatives. Have you learned anything in that time? From what
you've described, I would think plenty.

The last 3 years was a process you had to go through to get to where you
eventually want to be. A very efficient process that not too many others ever
get a chance for.

Every time I had a tough gig, instead of focusing of the jerk I worked for,
all I thought about was what I was learning and how I could leverage that into
my own future. That kind of thinking has always worked well for me.

You now have the background, experience, and skill of an accomplished 35 year
old in a 25 year old body. Congratulations!

Now stop worrying about the past, take a short break, and put those hard
earned assets between your ears to work for what you really want. This time
next year, I hope to see a "Tell HN" post from you, "How I turned 3 years of
sweat into a lifetime of fulfillment."

~~~
condor
"The last 3 years was a process you had to go through to get to where you
eventually want to be. A very efficient process that not too many others ever
get a chance for."

Why not actually try to be what you 'eventually want to be', now . . . choose
you're own adventure, now. You don't need to put up with feeling like you're
being taken advantage now, so that later you can feel you're getting what
you're worth. I don't believe there are any standard, efficient processes that
you 'have to do' to get where you want to be. You figure out, thats part of
the learning process.

------
andrew1
I'm baffled by all the 'do a startup' advice.

Your complaints seem to be:

\- you feel you're working too hard and too long

\- you don't have a work/life balance, hence the girlfriend problem

\- you want to lead the good life

\- you are peeved that your hard work is making money for others

And who are you?

\- by the sounds of it you're a good engineer

\- in your twenties you can command a salary in the $100k range

\- you're a workaholic, or you allow yourself to be sucked into being a
workaholic

From all the talk on here about what startups are like, you'll end up working
long hours, you won't improve your work/life situation and all for the
questionable payoff at the end. Of all the YC funded startups, all the posting
on here of 'feedback on my startup please', how many of those people are
walking away after say two years with anything comparable to the $200k you'd
make in those two years?

If I were you, I'd restrict my working to 9-10 hours a day Monday-Friday,
don't work in the evenings and don't work at weekends. Sort your personal life
out. If you're as good as you think you are, which I have no reason to believe
you aren't, then in 5 years time you could be earning a salary + bonus of
$250k+, all for working a sane schedule. What life style do you want to lead
that that wouldn't be enough to live on? And don't worry about the fact that
your CEO is earning more than you, someone's always going to be earning more
than you, the only thing that matters is whether you have what you need to
allow you to live the way you want to.

~~~
zackattack
Wow, this is amazing advice. But can you please plot the career path of
someone who will be making $250k+ at age 28? It seems like an incredible
claim.

~~~
andrew1
I'd assume, although I'd have to admit I don't know for sure, that
opportunities for pay are similar in New York/Chicago/San Francisco as they
are here in London, UK. By which I mean that if I could find a job here in
London paying me £150k then there'd be some equivalent job paying $250k (i.e.
simply FX'd) in the USA. From what I've seen on the internet and of friends in
the last five years, salaries for similar work at similar levels do seem
roughly equivalent (maybe slightly better in the US).

If you wanted to earn £150k in the UK at age 29/30 (leaving university at
21/22 with 3 + 5 years of work as I suggested) one way would be to work in
financial IT. A salary of £70-100k wouldn't be unreasonable if you were very
good and a bonus of 50-100% would be possible, again if you're very good. I'm
not in this situation myself so don't speak form direct experience but I know
people in the industry who almost certainly are (it'd be rude to ask...).

If this all sounds far fetched, I work at a fund which is on track to make a
profit per employee of around $500k this year (and as everyone knows, this is
a bad year). Even given that bonuses are skewed towards the researchers that
means they can still afford to reward the best IT people handsomely. And
they're sensible enough with money to know that there are people in IT who
they really couldn't afford to lose so they will pay accordingly.

------
noonespecial
This advice is going to have a little bit sharper edge than what I usually
dispense:

If some one pays you $50k to work for them, _give them $50k worth of work_.
The rest of the time is your time. You can donate it to your employer if you'd
like because the work interests you (I'm sure they won't object), but it
probably would be better to use that time to find balance in your personal
life.

If you and your employer have different ideas about what $50k worth of work
looks like, you'll part ways. Its a market. They don't have to buy what you're
selling, and you don't have to sell. If you don't want to be the seller, start
your own company and be the buyer. If nothing else, it will radically change
your perspective on these experiences.

The people you worked for were not evil, they just got above the expected
return on their investment in you. I'm sure they're thrilled, but good
references are about all you should expect from that.

~~~
jbrlondon
Sorry, but I don't think this is good advice in and of itself.

At least, not unless the only thing that you are receiving (and the only thing
that your employer is offering) is $50k of salary.

However usually in jobs the total compensation consists of other, non-monetary
emoluments, only some of which would ever even be mentioned in an employment
contact.

Firstly, there are usually psychological, cultural and social benefits to
employment whose value to the employee will depend on all sorts of contextual
factors.

Secondly, there is the possibility of future income increases -- whether in
case of future bonus payments, future income rises, or other as yet unrealized
monetary reward. In some professional services and finance careers, these can
vastly exceed the annual pay received at junior levels. (cf
<http://ingrimayne.com/econ/resouceProblems/Tournament.html>)

Thirdly, there is the future value of experience gained today.

Fourthly, there is the often significant social capital accrued through
consistently excellent performance. If one of your colleagues starts a new
business, or finds herself in a favourable position in another company a few
years hence, your stamina, diligence, tenacity and good humor will be
remembered. The vast majority of jobs are unadvertised, so this kind of social
capital is often increasingly important as your career unfolds.

Far better to think of the paid salary component as the 'tip of the iceberg'.
At the start of any career, it is very rare for an employee to capture much
more than a small fraction of the value she creates. As time goes on, that
changes. At any point construing too narrowly the notion of 'compensation' as
'cash received this year' is extremely risky, and may lead you to underinvest
your time in a career.

You will likely be working for many decades. Salaries tend to rise through
one's 20s and 30s and only peak (for men) in their early 40s. And remember,
the time you'll actually need the money is not now: it's when you'll have a
mortgage, kids or other structural outgoings.

So: take a long view. Be patient. Find a balance today that is acceptable, but
consider the hours you commit as an investment in the social capital you will
cash-in later. Take a holistic view.

Case in point: I've recently gone into business with the former founder of a
company I worked at many years ago (where, at the time, I worked like a dog,
and for very little cash). Turns out I wasn't really working for her then at
all: I was really just auditioning for the opportunity to go into business
with her 10 years later. What goes around, comes around.

~~~
Tichy
"there is the possibility of future income increases"

Oh, come on, empty promises much? How likely is it these days to stay long
enough with one company to reap the benefits of that? My stance is: if
something is included in the pay, it should also be in the contract. Empty
words tend to not manifest.

As for the other stuff: how likely is it that the OP will be able to continue
pulling 100 hour weeks in his 30ies and 40ies? I don't think it is very
likely. Besides, it would be better to pull 100 hour weeks if you get
100$/hour than as a junior (that is, take it easy now, pull 100 hours as a
senior).

Sorry if I am cynical, but so far I have never seen a company honor excellent
performance. Maybe it happens, then you are lucky. But usually developers are
considered to be tools. Companies don't go around looking for an excellent
developer. They are looking for somebody who can do X. Therefore they only
care that you do X. If you don't want to do X anymore (bored, not enough
salary, whatever), they will look for somebody else to do X. It doesn't matter
squat how many hours you have poured in. They also won't go "hm, we have this
excellent guy, lets see what useful thing we could make him do". It is the
other way round. They need something done and hire a guy for it. The guy's
personal development is not interesting.

Some companies might "see the light" and offer personal development schemes to
the employee. These however are also just meant to tie you to the company and
get more work out of you.

Again, sorry if I am cynical - but some people end up with millions, and
others just with empty words and "experience" of questionable value. What is
wrong with simply getting your money's worth???

I think the main reason why young people tend to work for cheap is that they
don't know how much money they will really need eventually. Just having been a
student, 1000$ seems like a LOT of money. It takes a couple of years to
realize that you have to save for retirement and feed a family. By that point
you are old and your job will be taken over by new young developers who are
underpaid.

Another reason to ask for good money: perhaps then the employer will think
twice about putting you on boring tasks.

~~~
angelbob
In my experience, companies never honor excellent performance, but it looks
_really_ good when asking for a higher salary with the next company.

------
timr
Given the audience of this site, I suppose it shouldn't be surprising that the
top answers so far are variants of "do a startup". That's all well and good,
but it doesn't really get at the heart of your question. Assuming that you're
even in a position to start a company of your own, in all likelihood, a
startup will only mean that you spend the next years of your life working like
a dog, with little to no financial upside. It's not a panacea, and it's not an
answer to your question.

If you're truly working 80 hour weeks, sacrificing your personal life and
youth for a tiny stake in another man's dream, then yes, you're being
exploited. You're an employee, not a martyr for a cause. The salary and stock
options are compensation for a slice of your (extremely limited) time on this
planet. So you need to get your head straight, and take responsibility for
what you are: you're a mercenary. You're trading money for labor.

Stock options are like lottery tickets; they're probably worthless. Value them
as such. So do the math, decide if the total expected compensation is worth
the time you're giving. If you're not being paid enough, cut back on your
hours. Eighty hour weeks are _exceptional_ situations, not the norm. Adjust
your schedule appropriately, and remember that it's _perfectly acceptable_ to
demand more compensation for your time. It's also acceptable to refuse to work
longer hours at any price.

But that's all strategic advice. Tactically, I think it's pretty easy: take a
sabbatical. Get some space. If you don't have enough money to do that, start
saving, then take a sabbatical when you do. Perhaps even work an hourly job
doing mindless labor to make ends meet. Fix your problems in your relationship
by _focusing on your relationship_ , and make a regular habit of sitting on a
rock somewhere, staring at the ocean, and thinking really hard about what you
want out of life, what you're willing to sacrifice to get it, and how (or if)
those two things can meet.

Finally, remember that it's not wrong to change your goals to accommodate your
life, even if everyone else around you is doing the opposite.

------
matthewking
You're making other people rich because you're not taking risks. The people at
the top are there because at some point, they quit their job and risked
everything they own for some crazy idea. Everyone told them they were stupid
and that they should get a "real" job and to stop dreaming, the idea didn't go
as expected at first, they persevered without earning and eventually they
managed to talk someone into believing in them, or they managed to make enough
from their product to start hiring, and that's when you came along.

If you want to be the one that makes the money you've got to be the one that
takes all the risks. Normal people don't do this, they work for others where
its "safe" and so they get their mortgage, spend their life paying it, and
live in apparently ignorant bliss.

Start your own company or try just getting in earlier where there's still more
risk involved and you get more reward for it. Otherwise just be aware that
your employer is paying for your time, give them that time and nothing more.

~~~
nimrody
I agree with the "start your own company" suggestion but strongly disagree
with the "get in earlier" advice.

Joining a company as one of the first employees means taking almost all the
risk as the founders, but almost _none of the benefits_ \-- unless the company
is bought or goes public.

Another option to getting better benefits/higher salary (sometimes
significantly higher) is climbing the corporate ladder. This means joining
management, working with customers, etc. This usually entails minimum risk and
much higher value. [It does not address the issue of burning out, though]

------
mahmud
Are you sure you're being milked? Are you sure you're not merely "adequate"?
Don't answer, it's a rhetorical question. You're 3 years out of college, and
whatever you're doing now, whatever you're good at, it is just something that
requires < 5 years of training and experience. That's barely the number of
years one needs just to be an OK programmer, much less acquire specialized
domain knowledge in business, arts and sciences to actually _apply_ those
programming skills for real-world use.

Chill out: you're not the only recent grad who is not a multi-millionaire.
Look at the people you work with as mentors; even if they're lousy, they can
serve as an example of what NOT to be.

Even if you think you're being exploited now, you will remember your time with
them fondly in the future; one gets screwed harder as one's responsibilities
increase.

------
patkai
I've been in the same shoes several times and I had to realize that it is a
personality issue. I was raised to be respectful, helpful and a "good guy" and
nobody taught me how to negotiate for a salary or how to draw the line for
helpfulness. Those who are different will take advantage of you without
noticing, and I can't even claim that they are the bad guys. Once I realized
this - and that it's not that easy to change - I established my own
startup/consultancy and I work harder than ever, but certainly don't feel
exploited, only exhausted :) A good alternative may be to learn to stand up
for yourself, easier said than done. You could also consider working for a
different kind of company where you can have some slack sometimes, usually the
bigger ones are like that. Or come to Europe, we invented "work-life balance"
;)

~~~
pgbovine
this book has a cheesy title, but it's wildly helpful for learning how to deal
with people (e.g., bosses) and get what you want without being a jerk: Dale
Carnegie's "How to win friends and influence people"

------
jacoblyles
It's weird that you have such concern for your "twenties slipping away". Every
year you learn more and put yourself in a better position. Why the existential
angst? Your 30s will probably rock, too.

Then again, I might just be rationalizing away the horrors of aging as I near
27 years of age.

~~~
caffeine
_Every year you learn more and put yourself in a better position_

... to die, eventually.

If his 20s suck, something crazy has to happen at some point for his 30s to
start to rock all of a sudden.

If his 20s had rocked, all he'd have to do is keep on rockin'

------
andrewparker
Do you respect the people for whom you work? Working for and with smart people
is far more rewarding than a 25% boost in salary. Surround yourself with
people you respect and really want to work with, and I think that money
concerns will be less important to you. You'll feel more motivated to go to
work and help the people you respect (and they'll likely help and teach back).

------
andrewtj
How is the increased salary going to help exactly? If you haven't already I
suggest you quantify your dreams and where possible take them for a trial. The
former will let you know if they are as far out of reach as you think they
are. The later will let you know whether they live up to what you imagine.
Money isn't the goal, what you can do with it is.

I realise the above sounds a bit elementary but it's my experience that when
I've been flailing, it's because I don't have clear a goal in mind which leads
to moving goal-posts and poor decision making.

------
pm
I would agree that you direly need to found your own startup, but _right now_
you need to find balance. You need to reduce your working hours. You need to
work less during those hours. And you sure as hell need to forget that your
stock options even exist, because in the end they aren't going to be worth
horseshit.

Once you've made that change, what should you do? Get away from programming
and the tech industry! Call in sick for two days and shag your girlfriend
stupid. Go to the beach and relax in the sunshine. Enjoy life. Being
successful requires sacrifice, but it should not require the sacrifice of the
small things in life which make it worth living.

Once you've done readjusted to living life a day at a time, you'll at some
point want to dig into a new project. At that point, start hacking, but not
too much. With any luck, you'll find yourself founding a startup in no time.

~~~
sonofjanoh
It is unbelievable how things can change in a few days. I did the same and now
I'm going to be a father (wanted) but the thing is I found balance, got a new
contract with a different company which will start next week for double the
money and normal hours and above everything got a new perspective and more
time to think/work on my stuff.

Take them gradually and you'll see how things are chained together.

------
bgray
My advice is if you're working for someone else, work as much as you're paid.
In your spare time start a project to make money for yourself. And always
remember, there is more to life than work and you'll never get time back so no
regrets (just learning experiences).

------
marcofloriano
You just dont know how to LIVE. Dont panic, You are not alone. Most people
(and i´m like you) only exists and dont know how to live.

------
ulysses
3 years is a short time. 2 months is almost nothing.

You're already making close to 100k, by that account -- that's your hard work
paying off after only one year.

The time to get a bump in salary is when you switch to a new job -- it
probably isn't in your best interests to ask after only two months. After a
year, or if you get a promotion, then ask for a raise. In fact, be sure to get
a raise with any promotion -- most companies give better raises for promotions
than they do during the annual raise.

As far as making time for yourself, and for your health, friends, and
relationships, you have to take control of that for yourself. If you're a
valued employee, you should have no trouble arranging things for the level of
work/life balance you want, but your workplace is going to do it for you, you
have to do it for yourself.

Also, whatever salary you make, you need a budget and a financial plan. You
can make huge lifestyle improvements just by making sure that you spend your
money on the things you actually want.

------
mpf62
I personally doubt that you have been taken advantage of the way you describe
it. Did you really take the one product from $50 to $700+ daily revenue all by
yourself or did you “only” make it easier for the salesmen to place it in the
market?

If you had worked for yourself, would you have been able to actually sell the
mentioned product to anyone? With 3 years out of college, I don’t think you
have the necessary network and sure not a huge experience in any industry.

Even the most genius products seldom sell themselves. Marketing may seem
“banal” to you, but in reality it requires good talent and experience. And
even if have both, the whole thing is still highly unpredictable in comparison
to the outcome of some programming task.

Therefore, I don’t think you should feel exploited. As I see it, your
employers gave you the opportunity to concentrate on what you like most and
can do best.

In short: yes, you are too impatient … and maybe too focused on money.

------
kineticac
It's sometimes your own fault for being taken advantage of. If the most you
can do is quit the job or post on HN about it, then you're not doing enough.
You seem smart enough to know when you are being taken advantage of, it's
you're fault for letting it happen.

Take risks, make demands, or else you'll never move up in life. Not just about
doing your own startup, but even within an existing company. Make an
impression, make demands, and if they're treating you badly just work 9-5pm
and spend the rest of your time working on a startup idea. Really, there's
plenty of ways around this.

It probably helps to just talk it through and see what other people say, but
at some point you have to take care of yourself, nobody else will.

------
jaytee_clone
Sounds like you are in a great position to start your own company.

\- You can make products that make money.

\- You have startup experience

\- You can work hard.

It's time to make yourself rich. What are you waiting for?

------
ProjectOscar
jquery,

I think the answer to your question is quite clear to me. Be the founder or
part of the founding team at your next startup. What's been holding you back,
you seem to be a good enough engineer to either be part of an upcoming YC
class or do it on your own? You'll work just as hard, but I think the
satisfaction will be much greater, and of course a financial upside if it
works out!

Good Luck

------
icono
I know what you’re talking about. For my first two jobs I worked for the first
company that said yes. The first experience turned out to be okay because I
had a very good manager. The second job was a complete mess and the company
couldn’t retain a person for more than two days. I stayed at the job for six
months because everyone around me said you can’t quit before then. For my
third job I finally had an uncle and friend tell me that I should take my time
before picking my next employer. So the next time I went to approximately
seven job interviews and received three acceptance letters. I was tempted to
take the first acceptance, but people warned me this time. Now I’m very happy
at the company I chose and wouldn’t trade it for many jobs out there. For some
reason I know a lot of IT people with the same problem. I suppose part of the
problem has to do with IT people thinking the best of people and not
understanding most social ques. In my case it was definitely that I didn’t see
the writing on the wall, which I now could spot. Also, I come from a blue
collar background and my parents themselves had no experience of their own to
share with me. People who work in IT and have white collar parents tend to not
have this issue as often because parents tell them what to look for. Good
luck.

------
iamelgringo
_I dream about the rewards of hard work--I want to travel, to live the good
life--but then I look at my life and see my twenties beginning to slip away,
with a high likelihood of nothing but memories of hard work and my morning
coffee to replace them._

It sounds like you have two separate problems. The first is that you want to
travel, and live the "good life". The second is that you're unhappy with how
much work you're putting in to the startups you're working for, and how little
you're getting in return.

I've been there, and I understand. I've tried to approach that problem from
two different angles. The first, is that I've just had to travel a lot more. I
found myself putting off things that I really wanted to do, because I figured
that I'd have to be rich to do the traveling that I wanted to do. That idea
turned out to be crap.

So, I've flown the American Airlines challenge the past two months to get
elite status for the next 14 months. That means, I spent $2200 to fly 50,000
miles with American the past 3 months. And, that means that I'll be able to
fly first class this whole next year for free. It's been a blast. I've gone to
Madrid, Frankfurt, and I'll be going to Barcelona in a couple of weeks. It's
amazing how much more productive I am after I have a bit more gas in the tank.

The way that I've approached the second half of the problem is to start my own
company. It's really hard to get rich working for someone else.

So, may I suggest taking some time off, treat yourself to a bit of the good
life, and use the time on the plane thinking about founding your own startup.

------
bemmu
If you want to travel, I think it's more about just deciding to do it. Your
salary certainly is enough to travel. You make more than most in upper
management here in Finland. On a bare bones budget, you could spend a year in
many SE asian countries on a budget of $12k and that includes flights.
Actually you could probably travel forever there if you just do a few hours of
freelancing over the net.

But I get a feeling you want to do something big, and I hope you will have
success.

------
dualogy
There's always a "risk" that a company in which you work as a salaried
employee "takes off", which could cause thoughts like "the founders are rich
now" (are they? have you seen their bank accounts?) "because I worked so hard
and well" (as did others in your team, I presume --- pat yourself on the back,
take a day off, look into the sun and enjoy your capabilities and life, that's
about it).

You mutually agreed to certain salaries and jobs with fixed rates, you got
your money and you did your work. Who is being taken advantage of here? If you
feel abused by such a simple, mutually voluntary agreement, then clearly you
need to stop working for the man. While that will be worthwhile no matter how
much you make, I'd caution you to rethink your take on your current situation,
and your underlying mode of thought. Employees make a certain amount of money
even when the company doesn't yet, for the sole reason and on the calculatory
basis that if it succeeds, they still don't make that much more money. In
return, they only work a fixed number of hours and take some time off for
holidays or sickness every once in a while, unless for some reason they choose
to work harder and longer than they'd have to, like you did. Go to the other
side of the table and be a founder, if you have or have earned the means to
take on the financial risks. You certainly have the passion and work ethic to
make more money for yourself, but don't take it out on your previous employers
now when all they did was stick to their part of your agreement.

Other models exist in the world if you don't like that one, such as mutual co-
ops, non-profit foundations etc.

Oh yeah, your sex life with your girl friend is certainly something you need
to sort out yourself too, just like your riches --- your previous or current
employers might not care that much. Sometimes they do and that's great and
all, but they certainly don't have to and hence you better not count on it...

~~~
etherealG
Have to agree here, employment is a contract you and the other party decide.
If they held to that contract and you over delivered without discussing
further compensation that was your mistake, not theirs.

------
Wump
_to live the good life_

What does "the good life" mean to you?

Is it about money? Building useful things? Improving your relationships?
Having a family?

Take time to reflect on this question. Let the answers guide you. If what you
are doing now doesn't fit your ideal of the good life-- change. And, if that
change does not bring you closer to the life you want, change again.

Introspect. Reflect. Adapt. Persist.

------
trevelyan
> When I told them I was quitting, they offered me a giant (>25%) raise, but I
> couldn't stomach the thought of staying after accepting another offer

You got offended and walked instead of actually negotiating at the point it
seemed they recognized your value. Why the conflict avoidance? You should have
asked for what you wanted, pointed to your track record of success to justify
it and helped them do the math about how it benefited them. And if you were
smart push for something that aligned your incentives with the decision-makers
on growth instead of salary.

So now the hard part. You use words like "my project" and "helped" which
suggests you aren't the only one on the team. And complaining about getting 2%
of a company founded by someone else is pretty ridiculous. What you're really
saying is that you don't think the company has decent prospects which will
make your stake worth anything, which may be the underlying source of this
angst.

------
nhashem
Here's a link to a blog post by Mark Suster a few weeks ago, which I think was
listed on HN:

[http://www.bothsidesofthetable.com/2009/11/04/is-it-time-
for...](http://www.bothsidesofthetable.com/2009/11/04/is-it-time-for-you-to-
earn-or-to-learn/)

It sounds like you had some pretty negative experiences at your previous
positions, but I'll bet the experience you gained puts you in a position to be
a lot more successful when you do eventually start your own company. So you
were "learning," where the financial payoff isn't going to be that high and
the real reward was honing your skills and expertise.

I say "when you start your own company" because it seems this is your issue
and it's just a matter of time before you realize it -- you've spent a lot of
time "learning," and now it's time to "earn." You can approach this a few
different ways. If your track record at your current company is good, ask them
about what it would take for you to get more equity. If the company is
destined for a multi-million dollar payout, just getting a bigger piece of
that pie could put your mind at ease.

But I suspect what you really need to do is start putting yourself in a
position to start your own company. Brainstorm possible projects that could
become startup ideas. Start saving up money in the event you want to quit and
bang out your idea over a few months or something. Reach out in your personal
network and look for possible cofounders. The good news is that being an
engineer, the execution is all in your hands. You're not just some scrub MBA
with a business plan and no way of actually executing -- you can implement any
idea you want, largely because of your experience at your previous positions.

Soon it won't be long before the tables are turned, and you'll be the
charismatic cofounder with a huge financial stake in the company, while a
bright young engineer cranks out code for a modest salary -- but with the
skills he learns working for you, he could be destined for a payday of his
own, and such the cycle continues.

------
kixxauth
If you are as great as you seem to be saying, you may want to try working on a
member owned and managed corporation. It's like a co-op, or an employee owned
organization, but better. You are paid in equity, which is determined by your
peers. All of the profits are distributed amongst the equity holders / members
every month. If the other members think you're as great as you think you are,
you'll be proportionally rewarded.

We're The Fireworks Project and we are a digital corporation borne out of the
Vermont Project. <http://lawlab.org/digital-institutions/vermont-project/>
<http://www.fireworksproject.com>

------
johnaspden
The slacker view:

[http://johnlawrenceaspden.blogspot.com/2009/11/horror-of-
pro...](http://johnlawrenceaspden.blogspot.com/2009/11/horror-of-
programming.html)

I wrote this article after people had a go at me for teaching kids to program.
The first half doesn't sound like you, so skim it, but the second half might
be relevant. Start at the bit where it says "A well paid job that you don't
enjoy is a curse".

You certainly need to be paid by the hour. The problem at the moment is that
you're ripping yourself off.

Sometimes people ask me to work 80 hour weeks, but they only do it if it's
really critical, and I never feel ripped off by it.

Mostly they're happy with about 35, since they know as well as I do that any
more than that on a regular basis and I'm not going to be too productive.

------
EinhornIsFinkle
Unlike most posts, I don't think you should be a founder at this point unless
you're prepared to do a bit of growing up and dealing with many issues that
don't involve building cool stuff.

Find a way to observe a business from the CEO spot and reconcile that POV with
an employee's situation. How will you get top engineers to enjoy working for
you? How do you maintain a sense of fairness among your team? Are you OK with
giving talent equity at your personal expense? And about 100 other issues will
need to be addressed that kinda suck if you're someone who likes to "do".

Sounds like you have the skills to build cool shit - keep rocking while
developing the softer side of being a successful (and cool) person to work
for/with.

------
sid
Feeling like what you have is the first step in your evolution ! I felt
exactly the same way. Now your at a crossroads where you decide next what you
want to do. First of all do what is more important. If you have the $$$ to do
it, take a break, do whatever you need to do with your GF, with family so
things are back on track.

Like someone said earlier, sit on a rock and decided what you want to do next
(i have a warf that i did that very thing on here in sydney).

From a career point of view you usually only ever come up with two solutions.
That you want to relax now, dont care about work and all you want to do is
easy street. If thats your choice then find a big company, do support work get
paid for your on call overtime, melt into the crowd of people and live your
days out restarting applications, writing scripts and doing things that
require no brainpower. Start and 9 when your shift starts and leave at 5 when
your shift ends. Hey presto, all the time in the world !

Start a business, doesnt have to be a startup that is technology based or it
can be. If you have a hobby maybe it can become a business, make you good
income and you will have a happy life. I knew someone that actually left
australia and went to bali and started a surfing safari in bali ! pays alright
but he is a very happy man. Sun everyday surfing every day, lives in a modest
house, no stress.

Or you can start a technology company, something along the lines of what your
familiar with , work your ass off for a couple of years with the hopes of
making it big and then opening the surf safari with all the money you made by
either your profits or flipping (whatever you choose).

The main point is i seen those old disgruntled people who work at the large
companys complaining about their bosses and how they are just viewed as a
resource, yes i empathise with them but what i dont tell them is it was their
choice. They could have done it when they were younger but probably didnt
cause they were having to much fun or work was very comfortable that they
didnt need to look else where.

Getting pushed and shoved so that it makes you realise that work is crap
sooner then later is sometimes a blessing in disguise.

------
volida
"Don't start your own company because you want to be your own boss." reference
<http://philip.greenspun.com/business/startup-tips/>

Potentially you were the means that their product did succeed thanks to your
talent, but assuming they were lucky to have you on board and you play that
role it doesn't mean they wouldn't have done it without someone else.

So, what you should do I think is deal with the burnout, feel better and then
when everything is clearer decide what you want to do.

About the salary, I suppose the market defines the salary except if you are
the founder/co-founder you will always feel being exploited.

------
profulla
Don't feel bad by thinking how much other people make money from your work.
Think it positively, think in terms of what you learned from the experience. I
believe now you gain some experience of the product developement, and gained
strong confidence that you can also build some product which will give u $1m.
Now, if money is an issue, then stick to the company for some more time. But
at the same time start work on some side project. Spend more time on your side
project and sooner than later you will find some potential on that project. If
you think it is worth it go for it!!!! don't look back again. You will reach
your goal.

------
philjr
Here's my advice, as someone fully employed who did the working like a dog
thing for my own business for a while, and then for someone else for a while,
got half burnt out and stopped.

1\. Treat yourself as your own business. If your business is selling it's
services for $50k a year, you deliver what you feel is $50k worth of services.
Now that doesn't mean taking this to extremes (i.e. working 3 hour days). You
fulfill your contract, but if you feel it's not worth your while to work 100
hour weeks, why bother? (100 hours is crazy btw, I do hope there's some
exaggeration for effect involved there).

2\. If you're slightly obsessive, find a side obsession. An organised one. For
me it was sport, which meant training which meant having to be out of the
office at certain times on particular days of the week. I didn't realise it
then (I went back to sport after 4-5 years away from it through my college
years), but that's saved my health, kept my interest in tech and stopped me
from the burnout that was (for me, at least) inevitable. There is generally
some social aspect to any hobby you can think of. Don't just practice the
hobby, try and get involved in the social side of it. If you like chess,
there's chess clubs / meetups. If it's photography, there's the same. Most
people who are living the life that I've seen on this forum are at least
mildly obsessive. If you're working 100 hour weeks, I'm guessing you're in
that category. Find another thing to channel your obsessions into and meet
people who share your obsession.

3\. Find hobbies. This sounds weird coming after point 2, but I basically have
my work life, my little side obsession with a sport that I train towards and I
have my little side-hobbies that I enjoy and actively try to make time for.
Again, move this out of your comfort zone. I went and took up surfing. I'm
still a complete novice, and while at the start I absolutely hated the fact
that I was crap at it I relish the feeling of not being an expert at it and
having to learn stuff again all over. Most middle aged men where I'm from take
up golf, this is something similar. They never become good at it, but it's
relaxing, enjoyable and something to strive to get better at that's away from
their personal and work lives.

4\. Start living a healthy life. Seriously. You're obviously cash orientated
and your outlook sounds very like where I was a few years ago. I'm a full time
employee now, but I treat my employment like a mini-business.

Start eating properly, taking care of your body and getting exercise. Hey, I
have chocolate cake, cookies & ice cream like everyone else, I just try to get
a healthy breakfast, lunch & dinner most days.

These things sound like nothing to do with work... but guess what ... if you
moved these things into your life, you simply cannot work 100 hour weeks. In
fact, you cannot work 80 hours weeks, you'll be lucky to get away with 60 and
you'll find after a while you won't want to even do that.

Ultimately I think I've found a slightly more fulfilling way to live life and
still spend 40-50 hours a week enjoying my passion for tech. Also, don't mis-
interpret me, I don't think I've found some spiritual plain. Some Zen heaven.
There are days when I'm unhappy like other people, there are days when I'm
happier, but I've found that ultimately, I feel like I have a balanced
lifestyle and for me, keeping that balance has now become extremely important.
People have noted how much my moods are better, I feel better & stronger, my
mind feels more capable due to proper sleep regimes and reasonable eating.

my 2c

------
ankeshk
You're not being impatient. But what you need to learn is how to parlay
opportunities.

Use your current job to build a 6 month nest egg (calculate what you need to
live on if you won't earn a penny for 6 whole months). Then parlay that 6
month safety net to start your own venture, or become part of another startup
as a founder with more equity options.

And in the mean time, learn all you can from your current job. Not just about
your work - but about how the company is creating its strategy, how its hiring
people, how it manages folks, how it handles finances and gets external
funding, how it gets clients - try to pick up a bit about everything.

------
sdh
"I feel like I'm just making other people rich."

Then why are you working for other people? If you can create the kind of value
you claim ($700k daily revenue), then your next choice seems obvious.

start your own company.

don't "do a startup" because those are mostly filled with people afraid of
corporate jobs, clutching at lottery tickets ... no, start a real business.
make money from day one.

you won't feel exploited anymore, but expect to be exhausted. not the "why did
I just do that" kind of exhaustion you've been dealing with, but the "i just
gave birth to something amazing" kind that you'll feel good about.

good luck and don't listen to the people who tell you it's too hard.

------
japherwocky
I'm surprised nobody has linked to the Gervais principle. You fit nicely into
his model:

"The losers are not social losers (as in the opposite of “cool”), but people
who have struck bad bargains economically – giving up capitalist striving for
steady paychecks."

[http://www.ribbonfarm.com/2009/10/07/the-gervais-
principle-o...](http://www.ribbonfarm.com/2009/10/07/the-gervais-principle-or-
the-office-according-to-the-office/)

As most are recommending, it seems like it might be time to get out from under
your glass ceilings.

------
kp812
I can't answer your question until you answer one yourself: are you okay
working for someone else until you retire? If that's fine then I think you
just need to find a company which fits you better - one that gives you decent
salary, hours, other perks etc. I do think you are being taken advantage of as
an engineer in this field for such a meager work to compensation ratio. I
wouldn't work that hard unless it was either for myself, or to amass enough
funds to start something for myself.

------
moon_of_moon
Think about why it is you do this. I'm guessing you either grew up in a family
where money was tight and you're determined as hell to make it, or there was
something else you need to prove a point about.

There's nothing wrong with that. Once you figure out where the drive is coming
from, it will clear up your goals, and the best way to achieve them.

Maybe your problem is not "how to avoid burn out" but "i'm willing to kill
myself to make it - whats the best path?"

If this rings true, you are me five years ago.

------
petervandijck
The name for your feelings is 'entitlement'. You need to learn to deal with
these (scary yc alert) feelings, not just to improve your job situation, but
especially for your personal relationships. Mo' money won't help, nor will
becoming a founder (although it can be fun). Research feelings of entitlement,
this is a good start: <http://www.pattishomepage.com/read/entitled.htm>

------
jbrlondon
Go into banking.

Seriously. You picked the wrong career. Become an investment banker. If you're
smart, competitive, highly motivated by money, and want to be rewarded in some
respect, at least at junior levels, in proportion to your diligence (as
opposed to your commercial acumen, sales skills and depth of your network),
then apply for Goldman Sachs. If you can stomach the hours and the culture,
the pay is unsurpassed.

www.vault.com has more info.

------
dkersten
[http://www.bothsidesofthetable.com/2009/11/04/is-it-time-
for...](http://www.bothsidesofthetable.com/2009/11/04/is-it-time-for-you-to-
earn-or-to-learn/)

Actually, I feel the same, so I've decided my learn period will be up soon.
I'm saving up enough money to live off and early next year intend to work on
my startup full-time. Staying where I am isn't bringing me closer to my career
goals.

------
scotty79
First of you are already burned out so make yourself two year holidays to
rebuild your strength and relationships with the people you care about. Surely
you must have accumulated enough wealth by now to afford such things (of
course this will require cutting down on some expensive stuff).

After two years start freelancing. Eventually build a startup. Live happily
ever after.

------
gaius
It's interesting to see the two attitudes. When an engineer says "I quit" it
means "I really am done here and I have already accepted another offer", but
management hears "I'm finally ready to negotiate seriously". Worth going back,
if you haven't already, and reading yesterday's post on part 2 of the Gervais
Principle.

------
ivenkys
You are in your twenties and you are working for others !!

Reality check : if you are really as good as you think you are, work for
yourself. Work for someone else and they will take advantage of you, it
doesn't matter which "employee" friendly company you work for.

------
petervandijck
Work less and learn to enjoy your social life, or do projects you find
meaningful. You'll have to learn that making lots of money won't make you ANY
happier than you already are, you're shooting for the wrong kind of reward
here.

------
adrianwaj
Do a startup, use this history as part of your pitch, and make sure you get
the best term sheet. This pitch is good - it's real. Find a cofounder if you
must.

------
mattrepl
Get in touch if you're interested in search and thinking about starting
something. One never knows...

matt@dynamictyping.org

------
Tichy
Just don't work 100 hours for somebody else, while only being paid for 40
hours. Why do you do that?

------
DavidMcLaughlin
Classic workaholic. You probably think your utopia is to have so much money
that you don't feel the need to work so hard and don't feel so guilty about
spending some cash, but even if you make a million you'll find another way to
challenge yourself and leave yourself wanting more. Maybe your next challenge
will be to make a billion. And if you achieve it like so many have these days,
then so what? You'll decide you want to become famous or make a difference in
the world or write a book or help the starving or all of the above. It's what
driven, competitive, workaholics do.

One of my favourite examples is Will Smith. This guy went from working class
family in Phillie to an A-lister as a breakthrough "rapper". Then he got
offered his own TV show and decided to try being a television actor. Once he
had a hit TV show, he wanted to become a blockbuster movie star. Once he
became one of the most bankable leading males in Hollywood, he decided he
wanted an Oscar. So he started doing "serious" performances like Ali, I Am
Legend and Pursuit of Happiness. And you can see the pain in his face when he
talks about how he missed out for The Pursuit of Happiness and Ali. This
despite the fame, the wife and kids and the millions and millions (and
millions) of dollars. He will not stop until he gets that Oscar and it will be
a major regret for him if he never does. Or if he does get it? Simple, he'll
do what other actors do and become a politician or a director and start all
over again.

Another favourite example of mine is Donald Trump. As a billionaire in the 80s
who pretty much had it all, Donald decided he wanted his own NFL team. The
problem was that the people who run the NFL decided this tabloid star wasn't
the guy they wanted associated with their league. Did that stop Donald? No. He
wanted his NFL team so badly that he created a franchise in a league which
made a point of not competing head to head with the NFL - the USFL. Once he
was in the door he then moved the USFL schedule to go head to head with the
NFL and then tried to slap an antitrust suit on them when that move failed big
time. His goal was to get the NFL to agree to merge with the USFL and thus he
would finally have his own team. This of course failed and the USFL ceased to
exist and now he will NEVER own an NFL franchise and he's still bitter about
the whole thing to this day, as evidenced by the recent ESPN documentary about
the whole thing.

The point I'm trying to make is, you are not alone. It's not a programmer
thing. It's not something restricted to people at the bottom of the ladder or
only a few rungs up. It's something every ultra-competitive person has and you
need to recognise it and channel it in the right ways. You seem to have
realised that you're reaching the point to which hard work alone can take you.
Your depression probably stems with the likelihood that any attempts to
progress come with big risk. As others have mentioned, now you need to take
those risks and be willing to fail. This is probably the hardest part for
aggressive competitors to accept. But the real successful guys like Donald
Trump don't dwell on repeated bankruptcy or lack of NFL teams or other
failures. They go out and start the next challenge, like creating a successful
TV show and dating a former Miss World or whatever the hell Trump's doing
these days.

Long term, embrace your ambition and drive and try to achieve all that you can
- maybe try and learn how to be patient. Short term, get your act together! No
offense, but right now you sound like one of those guys who gets to 21 and
starts reminiscing about high school, or gets to 25 and starts getting
nostalgic about college. Channel your competitiveness in healthier ways so
that your career is not the only outlet. Join a gym or play some sports or
something, anything that you can get some wins in and feel satisfied again.
Your mojo will be back in no time.

------
FreeRadical
Join a YC company

------
pclark
come work for me.

------
c00p3r
The _charismatic people who know how to exploit eager young workers_ can be
your teachers. Learn from them and keep practicing. Practice is the best
teacher.

I also like this sentence - "The more I practiced, the luckier I got".

------
ofaurax
You should ask Tim Feriss.

------
wehriam
You may be clinically depressed. If the personal problems you've described
persist do not hesitate to seek help from a physician.

~~~
wehriam
I'm disappointed this was downvoted. Some people have a genetic predisposition
towards depression. It's no joke.

While the submitter's work situation certainly could use improvement, the loss
of sex drive, fatigue, and feelings of worthlessness may be symptoms of a
disease. Left unchecked this could lead to a number of maladies, including
suicide.

