
Ask HN: How to address female coworkers getting paid less - equal_pay_q
Hi HN,<p>I accidentally discovered the hourly wage that some of my newly hired female coworkers make (offer letter left in the open). The trouble is, they have been hired in at the exact same job and experience level (programmer, right out of college) that I was a couple years ago, but they are being paid less than I was at that time.<p>The pay difference is pretty small, about $1.00, but our company also claims that our salaries are pretty algorithmic based on experience level.<p>I don&#x27;t believe that anyone at our company would consciously pay women less for the same work, but it looks like maybe its happening unconsciously.<p>I feel a little uncomfortable talking to either the relevant coworkers or my supervisor about it because I&#x27;m not sure it&#x27;s my place to comment on what they are getting paid, but it also feels like I am contributing to the problem if I don&#x27;t say something.<p>What should I do HN?
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sirwolfgang
This is fundamentally one of the biggest cultural changes we have to make. You
have to be ok with talking about your personal earning. In a lot of places
talking about earnings is more taboo then talking about sex, and sex is
generally taboo.

Company culture of not talking about earnings only helps the company. It
allows them to pay lowest market value for anyone, under the (often true)
hopes that they don't know their value. In short talk about it, and get other
people to talk about it.

I would talk with your co-workers get them to open up about what they make, or
have the breach subject in the conversation group while the other person can
hear. Talk about what you used to make and what you make now. The key if to
give everyone more context. Its important to remember that someones value as a
person is not their market price.

The more information a person has available, the better the choices they can
make.

[$47/hr, 2 years out of college, east coast]

~~~
joshyeager
The big reason for the taboo against talking about income is jealousy. Almost
every job feels harder than it looks, and almost everyone feels more skilled
at their work than they look.

So if you tell someone your salary, your job probably feels more difficult to
you than it looks to them, and you probably feel more productive than they
think you are. If you make the same or more than they do, there is a very high
risk that they will think you are overpaid.

This is obviously a risk to the company, which is why most companies (at least
in the US) have a policy against it. But it is also a risk to you and your
relationship with that other person, which is why few people share their
salary information with their friends.

You are right that this is a fundamental problem for equality. But it is not
an easy or safe thing to change, which means it will take a lot of time and
effort.

I am not saying that the status quo should remain. I'm just pointing out the
reason it is difficult to change.

~~~
bowlich
I started my career in the public sector where salary is published and set in
stone before you even apply for a position. Everyone knows everyone's pay
grade. I never once saw any kind of jealousy about someone making more than
someone else for doing the same job title.

This has two effects (1) Saves me a lot of time on the negotiation front. If
the announcement doesn't pay what you want, don't apply to it. Saves me and
the hiring manager a lot of wasted time if I were to apply to a post thinking
I'll get paid $X when it will really pay $Y. And (2) Since it's all public
anyway, everyone knows that if you want to make $X then you need to train into
position Y and you have a pretty concrete list of knowledge/skills that you
can hack away on to achieve that. None of this blind guess work.

~~~
reboog711
Someone I know who worked in public education got hired at a school district
the year before a pay freeze; which did not lift during her 9 years there. She
was jealous that teachers with 1 year of experience were getting hired at
higher pay scales than she was making.

[I have no explanation for why she stayed there for 9 years]

------
silverlight
Are there other male workers getting hired right now at the same rate you
were? 2 years is a long time and it's entirely possible they changed their pay
scale in that time. If there are other males being hired right now for higher
pay with the same experience level then that is indeed a problem. But I
wouldn't jump in without knowing as much information as possible.

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ripb
It is absolutely not your problem to comment on this matter. It's actually
none of your business.

Also, admitting that you were looking at offer letters when you should have
known straight away from first glance that it was none of your business could
bring some heat on you and your career that you certainly won't appreciate.

Mind your own business.

~~~
driverdan
This fear of sharing income information is crazy. Get over it.

~~~
grimtrigger
This information wasn't "shared" in any sense of the word

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sweettea
Parallel construction. Become friends with the relevant coworker, casually ask
one day how much they make, and that's a great opportunity to point out that
you were making more when you were that experienced so maybe they should ask
for a raise.

I would personally be pretty offended if you read my offer letter even
accidentally, despite being very happy to tell you how much I make.

~~~
Fuxy
Can you blame someone just glimpsing at something you carelessly just leave in
the open.

If it's that private why would you just leave in the open like that?

I never understood the problem with shearing how much you earn but apparently
it's taboo so i don't share unless somebody asks.

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philh
> I accidentally discovered the hourly wage that some of my newly hired female
> coworkers make (offer letter left in the open)

When you say "some" of your female coworkers, do you mean "one"? As others
have said, you can't compare without also knowing what your new male coworkers
(if any) are getting paid; but one man versus one woman also wouldn't be
strong evidence for anything.

~~~
equal_pay_q
Two, my supervisor mentioned that he made them the same offer when hiring
them.

------
verroq
Just because you get paid one dollar more doesn't prove discrimination. Your
need another sample from a male is newly hired as well.

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tmmm
> that I was a couple years ago

Here you go. You don't know how much they would pay you now.

~~~
grimtrigger
> our company also claims that our salaries are pretty algorithmic based on
> experience level

It sounds like the algorithm has changed

------
oneeyedpigeon
caveat: I am by no means an employment lawyer, careers guidance councillor, or
anyone with any relevant qualifications! I merely offer this as my own
personal opinion, as someone who has been employed in a variety of
organisations.

I respectfully disagree with the commenter who says this "is absolutely not
your problem". You are right to care about the wellbeing of your colleagues,
that's one of the differences between a company (and dare I say it, a 'team')
and a collection of freelancers. As far as you know, you've - inadvertently -
uncovered evidence that your company discriminates according to gender, and
that's a serious matter. Maybe it's not illegal, maybe the company has no real
problem with it, but _you_ do, so I feel you have every right to bring it up.

What might happen as a result, of course, depends on the company culture and
the opinion of your supervisor (and their supervisor, etc.) The best case is
that they've made a mistake, will be very grateful to you for bringing it to
their attention, and your colleagues will thank you for your intervention. In
the worst case, they'll fire you for meddling where you shouldn't and, if
that's illegal in your jurisdiction, you'll need to decide whether to open a
claim against them - either way, that case doesn't sound like fun.

Another option is to have a candid discussion about salary with one of your
female colleagues. Your company might well discourage that kind of behaviour,
but I'm pretty sure there's nothing illegal about it, and it's certainly not
immoral IMO. If you're talking to the person you know is being paid less, they
might appreciate you empowering them to deal with it however they wish, rather
than fighting their battle on their behalf. Although be prepared to offer
support if it's requested. After all, if it's really an insignificant amount,
they might want to leave it, and you might be OK with that.

Ultimately, I think you need to tread carefully, but evaluate a) what sort of
company you want to work for (if they react badly to you raising this, maybe
they're not worth it, if you can afford such principles) b) what sort of
colleague you want to be.

~~~
undersuit
>you've - inadvertently - uncovered evidence that your company discriminates
according to gender

Wait you're able to divine that from one anecdote about one person? What if
they are explicitly discriminating only this person(still bad but not sexism).
Is it possible the company is only paying her less because of some other deal
on the table? Have you ever had a company accidentally pay you the wrong
amount(it's never a good sign, but it happens), have you ever made a typo?

Prove me wrong and I will gladly shame this anonymous company, but OP hasn't
talked with the friend and we're going off of one offer letter, not even a
paystub.

~~~
JoeAltmaier
What if its not discrimination at all, but her lesser negotiation skills?
There's no rule that you have to pay anybody any set amount. The company says
they use a range by experience and level; is she in the range? Then there you
are.

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jack-r-abbit
Perhaps times were different a couple years ago when you were hired. If the
company is not quite as strong right now (or other reasons), they may be
offering less to new employees. Generally, companies try not to reduce
existing employees' pay... but do change the base starting pay of new
employees. And companies usually have a bit of a salary range. $1.00 (an hour
I presume) is only slightly more than $2k/yr. Perhaps these new employees did
not interview _quite_ as well... making them ever so slightly less appealing
(while still being good enough to hire, obviously). There are many valid
reasons why one person might be paid less than another person. There is not
enough info here to point at "female" as the reason.

Edit: That is not to say there is not an on going problem with women getting
paid less. There is. But not every woman getting paid less than a man is
getting paid less because she is a woman. It only takes a tiny variance in any
of the other variables to make one person's salary different than another's.
We can't blame sexism for _every_ bad thing that happens to a woman.

------
toxophile
It's been hinted but to make it explicit: we are in more difficult economic
times than when you were hired. Maybe every new hire is getting less than back
then, irrespective of gender. So, if you feel incredibly strongly about this,
you as a minimum need to gather much more evidence before you can even be sure
there is a problem. But you might be better just letting the people more
directly concerned identify and address any problem that may exist for
themselves - or are they inferior in some way that means you have to do it for
them?

... and the next time someone leaves private correspondence in the open, cover
it or turn it over without reading it, and tell them at your first
opportunity. That way, maybe they'd pay you the same courtesy.

------
Cthulhu_
It's a difficult matter, because there's often a taboo around comparing income
- and whether that's a good or a bad thing is up for debate. Good because you
get less jealousy (X earns Y but I don't believe s/he deserves it), bad
because you can get inequality (same pay for same job / skill level, etc).

I'm inclined to believe it's none of your business and it's something between
HR and the new hires (there may be reasons beyond what you can see - did you
have much more experience or side-projects out of college for example?), but
at the same time I'd like equality or at least to sate my curiosity if I were
you.

~~~
oneeyedpigeon
Ultimately, though, you should be able to eliminate jealousy because a) you
pay everyone exactly what they're worth b) you don't hire irrationally jealous
people :-)

(oh, and c) you pay everyone a decent base so that they really don't have
anything to complain about anyway)

~~~
philh
If jealousy is a common trait amongst humans, and it doesn't interfere with
their ability to do their jobs, then why would you choose not to hire jealous
people?

~~~
Karunamon
Probably because the second part of that sentence isn't entirely true. It's
part of the reason it's generally seen as a bad idea to have "serious"
relationships with coworkers.

Business isn't the place for emotion.

------
furyg3
If the company claims that salaries are truly algorithmic and based on
experience level, they should have no problem publicizing the salaries of each
employee on an internal wiki.

I see a lot of HR departments put a huge effort into making salaries seem
fair. They standardize job titles. They link job titles to salary scales
(A,B,C,D) and then have sub scales (1-15) for 'experience' (years at the
company) or performance (positive performance reviews). The problem is there
are always huge loopholes:

"Ok, the experience scale can also count time at similar positions at other
companies" Well, that sounds reasonable... "Also if you have a lot of industry
connections we'll count that as experience" Um, okay... "also if management is
impressed by a junior hire's capabilities we can apply that towards the
experience scale" wait... and "Well Jane, you performed really well but
management only allows us to give out so many exemplary performance reviews
per year" what?

The result is that you have a beautiful salary scale in your employee handbook
and a nice basis for hand-waving (your job puts you in scale B, and you've
been here three years, so that's why you're at B3!), but everyone is just paid
whatever they can negotiate. It's been shown time and time again that this
disadvantages women, immigrants, minorities (and probably also more
introverted types).

------
reboog711
It sounds like you accidentally saw something you probably shouldn't have; I
would keep my mouth shut.

There are a lot of factors in any compensation plan, and salary is just one.
I'd be cautious about judging too quick based only on a single factor.

It is possible that the company is giving themselves negotiating room.

~~~
emcarey
always speak up, never keep your mouth shut, there are laws in place to
protect against retaliation for speaking up. One of the unspoken factors in a
compensation plan is that women tend to work for less (ie they typically don't
negotiate for more). I am a woman, and I've learned to ask for more, but I
used to just take what i was offered for face value. It is possible the
company expects no one to speak up- and so it goes.

------
mycroft-holmes
Is it worth bringing up the validity of "equal pay for equal work"? What if
this woman isn't as experienced as someone else?

If people actually support equal pay for equal work, shouldn't this apply to
every job and industry? Should bench warmers in the NBA be payed the same as
LeBron James?

~~~
oneeyedpigeon
Really, you should be paying someone based on their position and performance
rather than their experience. Of course, this is difficult to do right away.
Anyway, the OP addressed this: his female coworker has exactly the same level
of experience.

------
jenkstom
My wife had a similar issue, except the other way around. She got paid a bit
more than another person (male) who graduated at the same time and had the
same amount of experience. When I inquired I was told it was because she was a
better negotiator and negotiated a higher salary.

Don't get me wrong, I'm 100% for income equality opportunity. That is, on
average, the same experience, education and job pay the same for both sexes,
sexual orientations, races, religious and so on.

But taking a single case and making a cause of it is difficult, since it is
just a single case.

------
dominotw
>The pay difference is pretty small, about $1.00

Are you trolling?

~~~
wlievens
$1.00 * 8 * 20 * 12 = $1920 per annum

~~~
easytiger
who in software gets paid an hourly wage?

~~~
folz
People I know at Apple are hourly.

~~~
gnmj
Is there a good reason to pay on a hourly basis?

~~~
SEJeff
overtime is normally $hourly * 1.5 or so depending on the company

------
orbifold
One sort of rational explanation for a lower wage is that females might get
pregnant and need leave for that, although that probably does not justify the
difference (I haven't done the calculations). That is also why insurance
prices offered to females / males are often different insofar the law allows
it.

~~~
oneeyedpigeon
That's an outrageous reason to discriminate against someone. A man also might
take leave after their child is born. A woman might not get pregnant. Someone
might be predisposed to sickness, but you still wouldn't be justified in using
your crystal ball and tarot cards in order to pay them a lower wage.

~~~
orbifold
This is a matter of statistics and risk evaluation, it is a fact that health
insurance companies take the risk of pregnancy into account when calculating
the insurance premium, whether you like it or not. In the same way there is a
risk to the employer and in principle it is fairly easy to assign a cost to
it, too. For example, assume an employee makes 40k a year and will take 3
years off during her work life, due to pregnancy (not uncommon in Europe and
often with almost full compensation). Assume she works 40 years, then the cost
per year is 3k, so she should actually be compensated with ~37k per year. This
is the most naive calculation, if you knew statistics on how many men vs.
women take paid leave because of children and so on you can of course come up
with a much better cost model.

If you assume that a company acts rationally there is no reason for arbitrary
discrimination, but every reason to adjust wages according to possible costs.
I'm sure in the case of wage inequality, this is not the main reason however.

------
dennisgorelik
Do nothing.

It is not your place to comment on what they are getting paid, unless they are
your friends.

There is no problem there. Differences in individual employee productivity are
likely to outweigh $1/hour difference in pay rate.

------
jonifico
Look, just take it easy. Just the way you are telling us right now, tell your
superiors. I doesn't have to end up in an argument about sexism, just tell
them you found out and you were wondering if it's intentional or not. If they
do turn out to be jackasses, tell the girl and let hell break loose.

