
Microsoft accepting Bitcoin - DavidSJ
https://commerce.microsoft.com/PaymentHub/Help/Right?helppagename=CSV_BitcoinHowTo.htm
======
chuckup
This is great news. I've always thought teenagers are the biggest market for
bitcoin, they're less likely to have a bank/credit card. Knowing you can now
exchange bitcoin for Xbox points makes accepting bitcoin a lot more
attractive.

~~~
JoshTriplett
> I've always thought teenagers are the biggest market for bitcoin, they're
> less likely to have a bank/credit card.

Which makes it rather difficult to obtain bitcoin in the first place.

> Knowing you can now exchange bitcoin for Xbox points makes accepting bitcoin
> a lot more attractive.

One major reason for the popularity of the cards you can buy in various
grocery/department stores providing points/credit for the various stories
(Google Play, iTunes, Nintendo, Xbox, etc) is precisely because you can buy
them with cash, redeem them at the online stores, and use the resulting credit
to make purchases, all without using a credit card. This really doesn't solve
that problem, it just shifts that problem to "how do you obtain bitcoin?"

Idea for a business model: make Bitcoin gift cards, and get them into the
various grocery/department stores.

~~~
chuckup
> Which makes it rather difficult to obtain bitcoin in the first place.

True, but now with Bitcoin a teen can do work for pay over the internet (I
assume minors cannot easily get a paypal account). I've seen teens draw
incredible art, make avatars, do minecraft related tasks, light programming,
etc. So while it's not easy, there is a way for them to obtain it.

I remember scheming for ways to make money online when I was a teen, but my
only options were to get someone to send me cash in the mail, or have my
parents cash a check (after asking me a bunch of questions as to why someone
was sending their 14yr old a $100 check).

Hop over to btc-e and watch thousands of teens daytrade altcoins while
chatting, it's eye opening.

~~~
jliptzin
I had a paypal account when I was 14. I used to build websites and sell them
on ebay, it was pretty good money for a high school kid. But for some reason
ebay/paypal thought I was running some kind of a scam and permanently banned
me. I'm 28 and still banned and they refuse to even take a look at my account
or listen to any kind of appeal.

~~~
timboslice
Something similar happened to me too as a kid, but I was able to create a
second account (first account was using my Dad's information, with
permission).

They are notoriously difficult to work with as a vendor. I had someone pay for
the last milestone of a project, then after the goods were delivered, filed a
chargeback with their credit card company. The CC company ruled in his favor,
and Paypal offered no way to dispute. I was left with the -$1,500 balance

------
Animats
No, Microsoft is not accepting Bitcoin. Microsoft's hosted shopping cart
program, like several other shopping cart programs, is now handling Bitcoins
for merchants who accept them. Microsoft's page says: " _You can only use
Bitcoin to add money to your Microsoft account and then purchase digital goods
at select Microsoft online stores. You can’t use Bitcoin to purchase Microsoft
products and services directly at this time._ "

So this is apparently for Microsoft partners who want to accept Bitcoin. Any
idea which partners do? Microsoft's site is rather unhelpful; it keeps
demanding a login.

~~~
the_rosentotter
> _for merchants who accept them_

Which now includes Microsoft.

If you didn't know, Microsoft has chosen to accept bitcoin through their
payment provider (otherwise that option would not appear). So I guess I don't
understand what your point is.

~~~
Animats
Microsoft's announcement says "You can’t use Bitcoin to purchase Microsoft
products and services directly at this time." It's not clear exactly what you
can purchase. In-game items?

~~~
KJasper
You basically buy credit to buy apps, games, dlc, music, etc. This a bit of
relic from the days of Microsoft points that you needed to use on the Xbox
360. When I buy an app with my Windows phone it can directly charge my
provider.

------
brayton
Biggest point is someone fairly high up at Microsoft said yes to Bitcoin -
executives at massive companies are taking it seriously.

~~~
hnnewguy
> _executives at massive companies are taking it seriously._

Having come from they heydays of Facebook gaming, and having seen the rise and
fall of numerous payment providers, I'm not sure how you draw that conclusion.

Implementing a new form of payment is trivial, especially one that's now
relatively "mainstream", as Bitcoin is. I doubt there were many late nights in
the board room considering this decision.

------
aluhut
Now I just need a anonymous way to get some BC without farming it or meeting
some shady guy near the main station in Frankfurt...

I hope those BC vending machines get more popular here.

~~~
MichaelGG
Vending machines will almost certainly have cameras. And incautious use could
still leave DNA or fingerprints. Best anonymity is to mail cash to a
LocalBitcoin seller. Take care to get unregistered bills (ATMs and bank
withdrawals _could_ trace serial numbers, though WF claims they do not). Get
big bills, then shop for change. Take great care in preparing the envelope.
Consider using a remailer. Some post offices will even do that for you.
Address it to the postmaster, and include a ready piece of mail inside. And
remember, the seller could be an operative of whoever you're trying to keep
anonymous from.

Biggest issues are A: your general geo location is known (though remailing
adds one more party to penetrate, OTOH, if the post scans every piece of mail,
auto correlation could be easy). B: buying stamps is getting harder,
anonymously. Cameras all over. Automatic machines require credit cards.

Source: I was thinking of operating a hidden service for hosting. I wanted to
see how much work it actually was for potential customers to buy anonymous BTC
and spent a few days attempting to do so. For people wanting to have strong
(state level) security, it seems very difficult to get it right.

Edit: A real solution is, if zero knowledge proofs are real and can scale, is
to have an active market that uses that tech. Then you go and trade in and out
and can get lost in the noise, if enough transactions are occurring. But we'd
need serious buy in, otherwise it's pretty unique behavior. But it could be a
great extra layer.

~~~
aluhut
The one in Berlin Kreuzberg, in an "alternative" Bar looked nice. I think it's
the only one in Germany atm. I don't think they have cameras.

And yes. I had similar thoughts. The only local seller I came up with in my
area that would sell smaller ammounts wanted to meet in person. Which is...I
don't know. I have a bad feeling about that.

Since I "only" want to pay an VPN with them (maybe some space also if that
works out), I would probably take the mail-way you've described if it would
have been aviable.

I now think about paying the VPN with vouchers I can buy in a local shop
somewhere but no idea if that works with vouchers I buy here in Germany.

~~~
StavrosK
As a local seller, I'll want to meet in person because I don't trust any
method of payment that is not cash in my hand.

~~~
aluhut
I can totally understand that. Don't take me wrong. The thing is that I don't
want to meet you because it may end bad for me. I don't know you. It feels
like buying weed as a teenager again. I don't need that anymore ;)

~~~
StavrosK
Yeah, exactly the same for me. That's why I'll ask to meet in a cafe or
something.

~~~
aluhut
Tell me when you come by Frankfurt. Apfelwein is on me :)

~~~
StavrosK
Haha, I'll be in Munchen after the MWC, which is probably the closest I'll get
to Frankfurt :)

Similarly, let me know if you're in Thessaloniki!

------
gesman
Curb your enthusiasm.

You can't purchase laptops:

[http://mensk.com/PHOTOS/1/msft_bitcoin.png](http://mensk.com/PHOTOS/1/msft_bitcoin.png)

------
NicoJuicy
It's great for adding Bitcoin to their options, but is there some way to find
out how much income someone has in Bitcoin (if they include it in their shop?)

The closest thing i found was by an article about shitexpress on
[http://goo.gl/4ri1B5](http://goo.gl/4ri1B5) , they added paypal as payment
method and their revenue was +370%.. So Bitcoin/Dogecoin/... was only 21,2% on
day 1 of adding Paypal as payment option.

~~~
josteink
That's a great point. But it doesn't fully get the big picture.

If you had asked anyone to implement PayPal support 10 years ago, you would
probably not experience +370% increase in revenue. It would probably be more
like 21,2%.

But because it stuck around and gained traction, it is now a sort of "default"
for non-credit card payment. Which explains the 370% figure.

But PayPal is "evil" and we know this. It is a centralized outside your
control. It can seize the funds in your account. It can be corrupted by
governments. It can be instructed into what it can and can't support by
credit-card companies, etc etc.

That not how currency is supposed to work. You own it. You exchange it. You
give it to who you like to give it to. Your money is yours to do with as you
please.

So we need a new approach which addresses the centralized nature of PayPal and
the ownership issue of the funds. And BitCoin does just this!

Today it is 21.2%, but who knows? It may stick around and completely
_decimate_ PayPal if it becomes a new "default" for non-credit card payments.
After all, if BitCoin is supported and has zero costs and a lower risk, why
would anyone need PayPal?

~~~
hnnewguy
> _if BitCoin is supported and has zero costs and a lower risk_

That's a big "if". As it is, neither of these things are true.

There's no such thing as "free"; services have to be implemented,
infrastructure must be built, systems must be supported. Hopefully Bitcoin
will be cheap, cheaper than the alternatives, but it won't be free.

------
ww520
Bitcoin price seems to have settled down recently, which is good for its day
to day usage.

------
sreyaNotfilc
Hearing this news makes Bitcoin that much more legitimate. Having Microsoft, a
company known for its money and its practices to obtain large amounts of it,
accept Bitcoin will affect its value in a big way. Or at least one would
believe.

I kind of wish I bought Bitcoins when I heard about it a year or so ago (just
like I wish I invested in Facebook). I did read an article explaining Bitcoin.
Parts of it made sense, but other parts still left me confused. I wouldn't say
that should deter anyone. As many things out there that we want or have, the
results of the product is sometimes more important than its inner-workings.

~~~
webaholic
If you had invested a year ago, you would have lost 70% of the money you
invested. Consider yourself lucky that you didn't.

------
dang
Also
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8733551](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8733551).

------
jc123
Sounds big. Could get the other large tech companies to look into Bitcoin more
and evaluate their efforts.

------
kleer001
Well, at least it's a step in the right direction?

>You can only use Bitcoin to add money to your Microsoft account and then
purchase digital goods at select Microsoft online stores. You can’t use
Bitcoin to purchase Microsoft products and services directly at this time.

------
ubersync
Bitcoin totally makes sense for digital products, especially for transaction
with small amounts. With Bitcoin you can send even $0.01 for a very low fee.

~~~
NhanH
Default fee for a transaction is 0.0001, which is ~$0.0355 at current bitcoin
price.

~~~
roasbeef
The default relay fee is actually now 1,000 satoshis (0.00001), not 10,000
satoshis (0.0001).

~~~
pbhjpbhj
Who is that fee paid too?

~~~
dsil
Essentially the fee is split up by everyone who is running the nodes that make
up the Bitcoin network. The more hash-power you have the larger your share of
the fees.

~~~
celticninja
this is incorrect, the transaction fee is paid to the miner that first
includes your transaction in a block. this is their incentive for including
transactions in blocks.

------
kolev
Microsoft is accepting BitPay, not Bitcoin. It's like saying that Microsoft is
accepting checking account payments, because PayPal supports it.

~~~
martindale
BitPay employee here. Around 50% of our merchants actually accept some or all
of their settlement in Bitcoin.

~~~
onnoonno
This is interesting. Could you give more detailed information? Volume in BTC
vs. volume in $?

~~~
smaps
This was my first thought as well. They have tons of merchants using them, but
I don't think a big percentage are high volume. So it could easily be that 50%
of merchants keep some bitcoin, but only 2% of volume is kept that way.

------
FatalLogic
Better link:
[https://commerce.microsoft.com/PaymentHub/Help/Right?helppag...](https://commerce.microsoft.com/PaymentHub/Help/Right?helppagename=CSV_BitcoinHowTo.htm)

~~~
dang
Thanks. Changed from
[https://commerce.microsoft.com/PaymentHub/Help/Show/toc_link...](https://commerce.microsoft.com/PaymentHub/Help/Show/toc_link_no_50?lang=en-
ca).

~~~
oska
The official announcement is now available, if you want to consider changing
the link again.

[http://blogs.microsoft.com/firehose/2014/12/11/now-you-
can-e...](http://blogs.microsoft.com/firehose/2014/12/11/now-you-can-exchange-
bitcoins-to-buy-apps-games-and-more-for-windows-windows-phone-and-xbox/)

------
Ologn
Ah Silicon Valley's big ponzi scheme. A year ago today a Bitcoin was worth
$820, right now one is worth $360. How long until it hits its inevitable
price, $0.00, considering it has no value whatsoever? Who knows? As Keynes
said, markets can remain irrational longer than you can remain solvent. Marc
Andreessen talks about how older people have dot-bomb hangover fears, but
nothing screams bubble to me than this modern scam known as Bitcoin. It has
all the attributes of a scam as well - the anonymous architect, all the big
players running off with the money or getting raided by the police. Yet the
big names in the Valley keep touting this worthless ripoff. Plenty of HN'ers
are involved in the scam, so this post is sure to get downvoted to oblivion by
them.

What we have here on HN is me, who over a year ago when Bitcoin was worth $460
said it was worthless (
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6753545](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6753545)
), and we also have the scam artists who were hyping it then, are hyping it
now etc. The potential Bitcoin investor suckers who listened to me would have
saved themselves from losing the $100+ dollars on each Bitcoin they bought
since the current price is below $360. I've been prescient, they've been
wrong, but they're still running their scam and will downvote me to oblivion -
they still have some suckers to fleece. The real thing to note is how hard the
big names in the Valley are pushing these hashes that they know to be
worthless, which has been surrounded by an architect who hid his identity, and
multiple ripoffs and police raids. Supposedly the Valley is about people who
have insights that others don't. In this case though, the big names and big
money have one insight, this is a scam, and try to hush those pointing that
out, as there are still suckers left to fleece.

~~~
celticninja
way to cherry pick your dates, thre were people calling it a scam when I got
in at $5, there were people calling it a scam when I encouraged family to get
it at around $10. there were people calling it a scam all the way up to the
$260 peak and lost more when it dropped from there. People have called it a
scam plenty of times and none of them have been right. the value has peaked
and troughed and plenty of people have been fortunate to make a lot of money
with it and you know what, it is not going away.

Your hypothetical day of a bitcoin worth $0.00 will come when something better
replaces bitcoin, not because bitcoin failed against fiat/national currencies,
but because it was superseded by a superior product.

~~~
RemoteWorker
Keep in mind that Bitcoin replaces itself all the time, and will continue to
do so. It's an open source project that continues to be developed as we speak.

~~~
celticninja
I know i just di not have the time to go into it.

