
Manipulating the YouTube Algorithm [video] - espeed
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1PGm8LslEb4
======
Abishek_Muthian
2 years back Brian Dean published statistics from analysing 1.3 Million
YouTube videos[1].

Couple of key insights were,

Comment count strongly correlates with higher rankings

Average length of first page video is : 14 mins 50 secs

I would say, if someone starts a new Youtube Channel today with original
content. Unless it is >10 mins (purposefully not being succinct), cautiously
scripting the content to encourage comments (which are likely to be off-topic,
polarising, memes, sarcasm etc.); then there's no way the video is going to be
on first page (or) gain large subscribers.

[1]:[https://backlinko.com/youtube-ranking-
factors](https://backlinko.com/youtube-ranking-factors)

Edit: Added /n for insights

~~~
Abishek_Muthian
Edit: I meant \n .

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benibraz
He just uploaded the second part of this series an hour ago:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V-1RhQ1uuQ4](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V-1RhQ1uuQ4)

~~~
espeed
This one is on Twitter, and in it he also talks with NATO, who contacted him
after he posted the first video and sent him a NATO report on platform
manipulation. See...

Robotrolling
[https://www.stratcomcoe.org/robotrolling-20183](https://www.stratcomcoe.org/robotrolling-20183)

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stcredzero
In George Orwell's 1984, there is a description of a "kaliedescope" machine
that remixes plot elements, etc from books to create media for the "proles."
Basically, technology is at the point where we can do basically that for news
stories. I wonder how far down the road TV shows and comic books could be?
(I'm guessing 10 years, to get to the point where the first news synthesis by
AI was a few years ago.)

~~~
luckylion
Isn't this what most modern movies are, only the remixing isn't automated?

I wonder what a script for an action movie would look like if it was just
based off of statistics of all the previous action movies. Probably watchable.

~~~
stcredzero
_Isn 't this what most modern movies are, only the remixing isn't automated?_

That was part of George Orwell's point.

 _I wonder what a script for an action movie would look like if it was just
based off of statistics of all the previous action movies. Probably
watchable._

We could probably get some great comedy out of it!

~~~
darksim905
Netflix is sort of already doing this, producing films based on your content
and metrics of what you search for and watch. They aren't automating the
actual movie bits yet, but it's progress.

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encypruon
At more than one point in the video he says that the spread of this kind of
automatically generated content was not YouTubes fault, but in a way I think
it is. It seems likely that the methods of manipulation shown in the video aim
more at getting such a piece of content going and less at sustaining it. If
"the algorithms" goal is to maximize viewer retention and this kind of
autogenerated content keeps some people glued to the screen, watching ads and
writing comments, it's really doing an excellent job, it's just the goal
itself that is unethical.

Edit: Typo

~~~
dredmorbius
Quite.

"YouTube Executives Ignored Warnings, Letting Toxic Videos Run Rampant"

 _The company spent years chasing one business goal above others:
“Engagement,” a measure of the views, time spent and interactions with online
videos. Conversations with over twenty people who work at, or recently left,
YouTube reveal a corporate leadership unable or unwilling to act on these
internal alarms for fear of throttling engagement._

 _Wojcicki would “never put her fingers on the scale,” said one person who
worked for her. “Her view was, ‘My job is to run the company, not deal with
this.’” This person, like others who spoke to Bloomberg News, asked not to be
identified because of a worry of retaliation...._

[https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2019-04-02/youtube-e...](https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2019-04-02/youtube-
executives-ignored-warnings-letting-toxic-videos-run-rampant)

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akshayB
Why can't all social network make 2 factor auth. and verify account with text
messages. This should cut out lot of fake accounts. They can also randomly
send out email verification when people try to upload stuff. It might make the
process bit annoying but in long run help the platforms out.

~~~
luckylion
Because you don't want to put hurdles between your users and posting a
message. When you do, you're just creating incentive to move to another
platform.

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sbhn
Youtube is like an election with a trillion billion candidates all competing
for your attention, not 2

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prolepunk
One of the obvious solutions for this is to charge hosting fees, something
like users paying $2 per video upload or so.

I think the video misses one basic point that so far youtube tries to fight
fakes with technology instead of just limiting the number of videos uploaded
or letting human moderators view the videos -- which would undercut their
market dominance.

It is a lot easier to say, oh hey, we've got this technology and people are
bad at their biases, instead for example, we're subsidizing this venture to
gain market dominance so everyone is able to upload whatever on youtube, but
with even this subsidy we are unable to do appropriate content moderation.

Foums and mail lists 30 years ago had that feature.

~~~
luckylion
> One of the obvious solutions for this is to charge hosting fees, something
> like users paying $2 per video upload or so.

That sounds like solving shoplifting by making customers pay an entrance fee.
The majority of youtube uploaders are not the same 50 celebrities that rule
the trending page and make thousands if not tens of thousands of dollars per
upload.

I'm amazed that people who's uploads regularly stay below 10 do upload at all,
I'd be even more amazed if they started to pay serious money just to upload
their daily morning chat. Personally, I tend to care more for what happens
beyond the carefully selected trending page. The trending page summons my
inner Kaczynski, the rest calms him down. I'd hate to see those people stop.

~~~
prolepunk
I understand your criticism of my argument, that in this case only what is
popular would be available but not what is niche and interesting.

I still make a point that there should be _some_ barriers of entry with humans
(moderators?) as gatekeeprers to prevent the spread of this this kind of
misinformation, and that would cost more money than what is happening now, it
is up to youtube how they choose to recover that cost.

Trying to do some clever AI on videos after the videos are uploaded is trying
trying to close the barn doors after the horses are gone.

~~~
luckylion
> I understand your criticism of my argument, that in this case only what is
> popular would be available but not what is niche and interesting.

That too, but my point was mostly that barriers would hinder the business.
Even if people could afford to pay, they don't want to, and there will be a
place next door where they don't have to. The problem will be solved insofar
that the users migrate away, and take the problems with them - and the ad
revenue ;)

> and that would cost more money than what is happening now, it is up to
> youtube how they choose to recover that cost.

Youtube _makes_ money off of this sort of manipulation, they have literally no
interest in stopping it. They just want the PR problem to go away.

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faizshah
Does youtube really use a simple visual hashing method for content id?

I thought youtube uses deep learning for everything now?

~~~
espeed
YouTube uses multiple algos and signals, and yet spam still gets through. In
some ways social media spamming techniques are reminiscent of the early days
of the Web -- when the Web was overrun with "SEO" spam from junk sites
attempting to manipulate the Google algo in the late 90s / early 00s. Google
eventually solved the problem of Web and Gmail spam for the most part, but
social media spam is a somewhat different beast.

HN has been having to deal with the in-authenticity problem too, maybe even
moreso as of late. Solving it may require a concerted effort from all of us --
a vigilant watch by those who can see through -- those who not only take the
time to flag inauthentic activity as they see it, but also educate others by
calling it out and pulling back the curtain in a way that reveals its nature
so more may become aware and learn to see it too. Discernment is a skill that
can be learned when we are cognizant and vigilant and conscientious about
paying attention.

~~~
stcredzero
_Discernment is a skill that can be learned when we are cognizant and vigilant
and conscientious about paying attention._

Google, YouTube, and much of the current web is very easily manipulated by
small but sizable and highly motivated fractions of the population acting
together. It greatly over-represents the opinions of the extremes,
particularly the voices which generate the most outrage.

Fear is the mind-killer. But we never knew the extent to which this could
reach until it was combined with viral outrage. (Monetized and politicized
viral outrage, to be precise.)

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rE3j_RHkqJc](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rE3j_RHkqJc)

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paulpauper
presumably the purpose of these vids is to make $ from the pre ads, not spread
propaganda.

~~~
0815test
¿Por qué no los dos?

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samirm
Destin's bias and hypocrisy makes it hard to watch his videos.

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topoftheforts
In what way is he biased in this video?

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samirm
In the pro-usa way.

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snazzycalynx
I thought Destin was actually manipulating the algorithm.

~~~
tontonius
Well it wouldn't be hard to make the argument that he does, albeit not as
programatically as his antagonists.

What his channel feed looks like:
[https://imgur.com/a/OqCIKlP](https://imgur.com/a/OqCIKlP)

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theWheez
For what it's worth, he seems to be pretty open about that in the video

~~~
tudelo
And further, even if he is attempting to "manipluate the algorithm" he really
is just trying to maximize his views for his content, which is much higher
quality content than the average youtube video.

~~~
stcredzero
One of the best youTube science videos ever!

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RtWbpyjJqrU](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RtWbpyjJqrU)

