
The Rehab Camp My Parents Paid to Kidnap Me - apsec112
http://www.cracked.com/personal-experiences-1680-5-things-i-learned-escaping-troubled-teens-facility.html
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jomamaxx
I think the camps might work in some situations, if they are properly run.

The missing ingredient, is 'something to believe in'.

The reason that 'disciplinarian' measures work in the forces, is because
you're doing it for a cause much greater, more important than yourself. You
have to 'dig deep' to find that. And without a 'cause' \- it won't work.

Also - in the forces you can have incredible amounts of responsibility - and
responsibility really changes people. You've see the changes when people
become parents - well - it's the same in the Navy/Army etc.. Finally - is the
amazing cool things you get to do. Travel, jump out of planes, blow things up.
etc.

I'm not justifying this necessarily, just pointing out the nature of the
changes that often happen.

I doubt this guy would be well suited to the forces, but you never know. A
couple of years in the Navy - seeing the world, having some responsibility,
might have changed him. But for many of these types, simply finding the right
creative outlet might be it.

~~~
dalke
If movies are correct, judges during the pre-volunteer military days would
tell someone their choices were the military "to straighten you up" or jail.

I think that's the better comparison than your comparison to the modern
military.

How often did that work back then? Because I get the idea that the answer is
"not much", or at least, not worth it for the military. The regulations are
clear that the option of "military or jail" is no longer permitted.

Volunteers might be in the military for the greater cause, certainly. (Though
some are in it for college money or other reasons.)

Draftees often have a different goal - keep your head down, do the time, and
get out. What they believe in is getting out.

FWIW, even after the draft finished, marijuana use in the military was also
pretty common, eg, [http://www.nytimes.com/1981/06/19/us/navy-
reports-6-of-14-ki...](http://www.nytimes.com/1981/06/19/us/navy-
reports-6-of-14-killed-aboard-nimitz-had-used-marijuana.html) reports that 6
of 14 killed aboard the USS Nimitz had used marijuana, in 1981. This guy from
Cracked might have fit right in to the pot scene among the enlisted men.

~~~
jomamaxx
It wasn't just 'in the movies' \- it was for real.

Did it work? So long as the troubled kids got through '2 years' \- then I
would argue that it worked.

'Back in the day' \- the Army was a job for people who were somewhat
patriotic, but it was also a job - at least for privates, it was pretty
straightforward. As long as you 'did your work' \- it would keep someone
focused on doing something, and I suggest they would be 'much better off' than
having spent the time in jail.

'Back in the day' \- almost everyone was patriotic to some extent. 'Slacker'
might have been someone who didn't wear a hat in public (!) or later, had
'long hair' (!). These kinds of people aren't hardened criminals or bad
people, just people off the path, that need some bit of motivation - even if
it's a little coerced.

And even 'back in the day' when military standards were not so hardcore - I
there was still enough 'value' work being done, enough of a cause for them to
'mostly believe in'.

I think it would be a great program for _some_ kids, even to this day.

Prison is the worst thing for not-quite-real criminals. It creates a really
negative atmosphere, hardens them, depresses them - it's like the absolute
worse possibly 'peer pressure' situation imaginable. The _worst_ role models
possible.

This guy is not a bad kid. He's more of a 'catcher in the rye' type - just
needs to find his path. When you are pushed a little bit on a path for a
couple years, that includes a very rudimentary amount of 'getting up' 'doing
something constructive' 'learning something' 'applying yourself' ... then I
think you have enough momentum (and hopefully a few dollars in the bank) to
possibly do something afterwards.

~~~
dalke
It looks like you've gone from "often really changes people" to "get through
two years by having the goal of getting out." The latter is the same goal for
those in jail.

The question I have is, how do you know that conscripted service, which is
what you propose, is more effective than prison. By that I mean a sane prison,
like what Norway has, with the goal of rehabilitation, and not the inhumane US
prisons designed to punish. And is it more effective than other alternatives?

Yes, movies often portray military service as transformative, but movies want
to tell a good story, and military service is one of many ways to structure a
bildungsroman. (Movies also tend to portray the good side of the military.)

I don't understand your "back in the day" comments. Almost everyone _now_ is
patriotic to some extent too. Remember, back in the day, many Americans did
not consider communists, socialist, unionizers, peace activists, or people of
Japanese ancestry to be patriotic Americans. These are people who would have
been put in jail or internment camps.

Question for you: were Eugene Debs, Charles Schenck and Elizabeth Baer
"patriotic" back in the day? What of the 100+ communist party leaders jailed
under the Smith Act?

The problem I have with saying " _some_ kids" is that nearly anything will
work for " _some_ kids". Certainly the military works for some people. Jail
works for some people. College works for some people. Getting a job works for
some people. Religion works for some people. Counseling works for some people.
Taking up a sport works for some people. Moving to another town works for some
people. Simply waiting a few years can also work.

The hard part is knowing which methods are appropriate for which people. And
training someone for military service is not cheap. How much money should we
spend for a "catcher in the rye" type, and are there cheaper alternatives?

Forced military service as a alternative to jail is not going to happen again.
The military well remembers what damage even a single disgruntled draftee can
do in the modern highly-technical military. Take a look at all the sabotage
done during Vietnam when a large fraction of the military were against the
war. (Eg, sailing of the USS Ranger was delayed for months after its main
reduction gear was sabotaged.)

Also, the modern "hardcore" standards are only possible because everyone is a
volunteer.

~~~
jomamaxx
"The question I have is, how do you know that conscripted service, which is
what you propose, is more effective than prison."

It's not quite 'conscripted' \- it's a choice.

I was in the Army. And I have distant family members in prison.

My friend - it's clear you don't have exposure to either. Nobody would compare
serving in the Army to 'prison' unless that person really, really didn't want
it - in which they could chose prison.

Prison is a terrible, _terrible_ place for most people. It's where people
learn how to be criminals.

And I didn't go from 'having something to believe in' to 'getting through two
years of service'. They are not quite mutually exclusive.

"Forced military service as a alternative to jail is not going to happen
again. The military well remembers what damage even a single disgruntled
draftee can do in the modern highly-technical military."

This is not an issue, and neither is 'sabotage'.

Also 'getting a job' and 'getting religion' are not comparable to prison or
the military. In both prison and the military - you have a fairly guided life.
You have a lot of set rules. You are required to follow a lot of rituals.

Having a choice to go into the service for a couple of years instead of some
kind of aggressive sentencing would be a great option, in 2016 for many kids,
left to the judges and military's consent.

~~~
dalke
"My friend", my wife served 8 years in the military and did two tours in Iraq
and my grandfather served as a quartermaster. You are obviously extrapolating
from no data when you say I have no exposure to the Army. I certainly have
more experience with the Army than you have with the prison system.

But you, "friend", keep talking about the experience in a modern volunteer
army.

What is _your_ experience in a conscripted army? What is _your_ experience in
an army containing people whose choice is "jail or military"? From your
history, your grandparents recently passed away, which means you no older than
50. The US became an all volunteer army in 1973, so if you, a non-American,
served as a Combat Engineer in the US military then you at best heard things
second-hand.

You are right, it isn't conscription, but the difference is mighty small. If
you are conscripted, you go into the military or you can choose to go jail. If
you are in front of a judge, you go to prison or you can choose to join the
military. The difference is almost only the time you might serve in jail.
(Conscientious objectors have another option.)

The US military flat out says they don't people who are forced to choose
between the military or jail. Why do you think the military is so strongly
against what you think would be so useful? (Hint:
[https://www.army.mil/article/106813/](https://www.army.mil/article/106813/) )

Do you believe in equal justice under the law? If so, what of those who cannot
join the military, perhaps because they don't have a high school degree, or
are too short, or handicapped, or don't meet some other military requirement?
Or those who are pacifists or another type of C.O.? According to you, they'll
become criminals as they have no other option than prison. Sucks to be them!

Regarding the treatment in jails, I again point to my earlier statement, "By
that I mean a sane prison, like what Norway has, with the goal of
rehabilitation, and not the inhumane US prisons designed to punish." Do you
think Norwegian jails are a place where people learn to be criminals?

Ahh, but looking at your comment history I see you think the Norwegian penal
system is morally corrupt, not punitive enough, and you think execution can be
a form of justice. It seems you would rather have a penal system which breeds
criminals than one which does its best to rehabilitate, though knowing there
will be some failures.

I notice you didn't answer my question about what you meant by "back in the
day" and patriotism. Since you are not an American, which country and
patriotism are you referring to?

------
apsec112
Even though it's on cracked.com, I think this is a valuable and pretty unique
story that can't be found anywhere else. Other people have died in these
"wilderness therapy" camps - heck, even the name is straight out of Stalinist
Russia - and usually the managers aren't punished, or only get a slap on the
wrist.

~~~
ansible
Yeah, I've been reading about these sorts of camps for a few years now. I
still can't believe there's so little regulation about any of it.

