

Depressed and need advice - bookreader

I&#x27;m an active HN poster under a different name, but I&#x27;m posting this anonymously. I&#x27;m dealing with some situational depression and need advice.<p>I&#x27;ve been on a gap year from an Ivy League school after having a bad freshman year (I did well academically, but I had social and personal problems that I was dealing with). I took a gap year with the possibility of dropping out.<p>I&#x27;ve done pretty well over the gap year. I worked at a programming job and also did some contracting, and managed to save about 18k. I was also able to work through some of the future computer science classes by myself (learned C, graphs, trees, and basic algorithms).<p>The problem is, I come from an Asian family and am dealing with expectations that I return to school (from both friends and family). I don&#x27;t feel ready to return, and I feel like I&#x27;m becoming depressed and anxious again.<p>I know this seems like a first world problem, but I just need some perspective and advice. I feel like if I drop out, I&#x27;ll be okay emotionally and health wise. I think I&#x27;ll be able to continue self teaching (I&#x27;m decently smart, scored 2330 on the SAT and did well in multivariable calc freshman year).<p>Thanks for any advice. I&#x27;ve just been very depressed and unhappy about the prospect of going back to school, and I&#x27;m starting to think it&#x27;s the wrong decision.
======
spoiler
You should see a doctor.

Its very unlikely that you are getting depressed at the prospect of going to
university. It's more likely that you _are_ suffering from depression, that
the prospect of going back to uni is making you anxious, which in turn causes
stress and people who are depressed have a _very_ different response to stress
than people who are not. Also, think of depression as a hole, and stress like
this huge bulldozer that digs into it, and you are always at the bottom of the
hole, and it just gets deeper and deeper. Eventually it can get too deep.

People who are not depressed can't _understand_ the way stress feels for
someone who is depressed, though.

Depression can have roots in some emotional problems, but it's also common for
it to be a _purely physical condition_ , too. I am depressed (it's being
treated) and I can't guarantee you whether you are depressed or not (if you
are, it sounds like a light/mild cases, which is good I believe), but the way
you described your situation makes me think that you might be, and a doctor
could definitely help you. If not with the depression, then at least with your
anxiety and "social" problems.

The problem with depression is that it just gets worse and worse, and there is
no stopping it on your own.

You can also develop depression at any stage in your life.

Disclaimer: I have a very bad case of Major Depressive Disorder, I suspect
since I was a kid, which almost ruined my life before a friend made me treat
it. So I researched a lot about it, but I'm by no means an expert!

~~~
bookreader
I think I might be slightly depressed, but the prospect of going back to
college is making me unhappy (I think I'm pretty certain of this, but I don't
want to go through all the reasons). I did well academically freshman year
despite my depression, and at this point I'm mostly wondering how bad dropping
out would be for me career wise (and maybe socially).

I feel confident that I can make friends outside of school, and while I'm
worried about my parent's and friend's reactions to my dropping out, I feel
like that shouldn't be the deciding factor.

~~~
spoiler
Of course it shouldn't!

If you believe it makes you unhappy, and not simply causing you stress, then
you shouldn't go back. I realise your parents and friends might disapprove at
first, but you should change their minds by showing them you can do what makes
you happy _and_ be successful.

It shouldn't make any difference in you social life, because if someone cares
that much, they are probably snobby as fuck.

However, it might make a difference to you in later life. Russell Tovey
(British actor) said he always feels ashamed for not having a degree in acting
(or whatever it's called, I honestly forgot the term... Drama?) when people
talked about which schools they went to. Your parents are probably just scared
that you might develop self esteem issues like these.

I am not sure if it will limit your career choices, but you can always
compensate with a kickass portfolio!

~~~
bookreader
I'm not worried about developing self esteem issues because of my lack of a
degree.

I am somewhat worried about how it could impact my career, though.

------
auslegung
Here's where I'm coming from: a student of psychology, sociology,
anthropology, and history. Worked in the Helping Professions for 5+ years,
lived in South Korea for over a hear, traveled to China a few times, and as
such have made friends with several Asians back home in America. I think I can
understand what the pressures are like from your friends and family, and I
think I can understand why they feel the need to pressure you, at least to
some small extent. However, I may be wildly off, in which case please ignore
my ramblings, and I hope not to cause any more frustration for you.

Here's my real concern: not that you make money, or that you make your parents
happy (or even that you make yourself happy), but that you are able to
identify what is happening at the root of all this, and that you are able to
navigate it. When that happens, you will become happy, and you will provide
the time, the reason, and the opportunity for your parents to become happy
about you, though whether or not they choose to is ultimately up to them, not
you.

Here are my questions: What is the problem with your situation? (I can assume
from what you've typed, but it isn't explicitly stated, and I hate assuming)
Where does the problem come from? Where does your sense of identify originate?

My suspicion: there is an identity issue at the root of this (or at least near
the root). We all get our identity from somewhere. We were all meant to get a
healthy identify from our parents, though not all of us can. Many of us have
parents who were not given their own healthy identity from their own parents,
which makes it difficult to pass on a healthy sense of identity to us. Where
there's a lack of identify (or unhealthy identity, these are essentially the
same things with different terminology), poor boundaries are set in place. I
highly recommend the book Boundaries by Henry Cloud and John Townsend
<[http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-
alias%3Dap...](http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-
alias%3Daps&field-keywords=boundaries>).

Your hesitancy to return to school may be wrapped up in the bad stuff you
experienced there. That does not mean you should just go back and tough it
out; it means that you have not healed from whatever happened. If you can heal
from that (and without knowing what it is, I don't know where to point you),
you may find yourself wanting to go back to school. (This imagination
technique does not provide solid answers, just hints about what is going on in
you. Take it with a grain of salt) Take a few minutes to imagine that you are
100%, completely healed from whatever bad stuff happened your freshmen year.
Really let it sink in. Everything is fixed, and none of that stuff can ever
happen again. If you are able to imagine that and let it go to the core of
your being, do you still want to stay away from school?

If what I'm saying seems to fit so far, get that book. It is a pretty dry
read, but the ideas are amazing. If what I'm saying does not fit, I apologize
for taking your time. I'd really like to see you get through this, healed of
any issues that could cause depression ever again for you.

------
ekanes
If you feel confident you'd be happy as a developer or an entrepreneur, and
given how you feel I think you should drop out. The real world will teach you
much more than school. Developers can and are judged on what they've DONE (not
by all companies but by many, and certainly enough) and entrepreneurs are
judged only by what they've done. The degree doesn't matter imho. Background:
I dropped out (data point of one, I know!) of comp sci after first year, ~18
years ago, and have never looked back. Caveat: If you would be a developer,
you'd have to be willing to live in a large/progressive city to find the
(many!) companies happy to hire you based on what you've done. Go build stuff.
School isn't for everyone.

------
fusiongyro
You should come to New Mexico Tech. We have a great CS program which is
essentially throwing you in the deep end and seeing if you can swim. We are
far, far away from your overbearing family and whatever horrifying social
situation at your old school, over here in Socorro, New Mexico. Even if you
got _no_ financial assistance at all, you could pay for two or three years
just with the 18K you have saved up now, and that's out-of-state tuition. In
reality, with a decent GPA they would probably pay half and in a year you
would qualify for in-state tuition cutting it in half again. The students here
are mellow and have nothing to do but study. A low key environment, you would
be a big fish in a small pond.

Worked for me. :)

~~~
rdouble
Your math seems off. I looked at the New Mexico Tech website, and it estimates
that the costs per semester are around $15,000.

[http://www.nmt.edu/tuition-and-fees](http://www.nmt.edu/tuition-and-fees)

~~~
fusiongyro
Tuition seems to have gone up since I last looked.

$4K of that cost is based on staying in the dorms. You can rent a house for
$800-1000/month in Socorro, split 2 to 4 ways, and there are studio apartments
in the area for as low as $250. Still, these costs are essentially for your
first year; after that it goes down considerably, and if you have a 3.25 or
3.5 you're eligible for a $4/5K/year transfer scholarship.

I have no idea where they got that $1600 "travel" cost estimate from.

------
impendia
I'd recommend going back to school. When you go:

* Join some exercise or sports club. Martial arts, ultimate frisbee, swimming -- anything.

* Ask a few women on dates. If you're at all like I was, you will make an awkward mess of it and get rejected. This is a good thing. It will make you dread failure less.

* Some Saturday, when you really should be working, take the day off and explore whatever city you live in. Don't go to the standard tourist locations. Walk around all day and explore at random. Walk into businesses you might not otherwise walk into. Approach strangers and ask random questions. They'll probably think you're weird -- that's okay, you'll never see them again.

(This might not apply directly if your town is small and/or unsafe.)

* Find some off-campus activity to go and join for a day. The more ridiculous the better. Country line dancing?

* Take some class in some subject that really interests you, but will be useful for nothing. Shakespeare, music theory, some obscure foreign language, ... anything.

* Do reasonably well in your classes. But don't be afraid to get a few B's. Disappoint your family slightly, not totally.

* Read Amy Chua's Battle Hymn of the Tiger Mother. Wonderfully insightful and funny, and based on what you say I imagine the story she tells will be familiar as hell.

* Tell all of this to your family. IMHO, you will be very, very glad you did so no matter how they react.

Good luck to you!

------
mikecane
My advice is to go back to school. And not because you are being pressured to
but because it will broaden you in ways you can't anticipate. You'll be in an
environment that is unpredictable and stimulating and you don't know where
future inspiration will come from because of it.

Jobs found inspiration after dropping out but -- and this is the important bit
-- _while still on the campus_ :

>>>“The minute I dropped out I could stop taking the required classes that
didn’t interest me, and begin dropping in on the ones that looked
interesting,” he said. Among them was a calligraphy class that appealed to him
after he saw posters on campus that were beautifully drawn. “I learned about
serif and sans serif typefaces, about varying the amount of space between
different letter combinations, about what makes great typography great. It was
beautiful, historical, artistically subtle in a way that science can’t
capture, and I found it fascinating.”

\-- from the Isaacson bio

Listen, you can always make money later. But you are young only _once_ and if
you pass up the chance for serendipity when you're young, you'll regret it
later in life because by then you'll understand you've trapped yourself in a
bubble for years.

I hope this helps.

~~~
bookreader
Thanks for the response. Several people have advised me to go back for the
overall experience, but I feel like I'm not likely to enjoy it if I'm unhappy
or depressed there.

I'm wondering how bad dropping out would be. I have about a year and a half of
experience as an employed programmer, and I know several languages and
frameworks.

Would the lack of a degree become a serious problem in the future?

~~~
_jss
I entered the professional field after some minor community college experience
right during the .com bubble (1997). It was very difficult to get my foot in
any doors, largely due to the lack of a degree.

After 5 years of experience that went away, partly from the changes in the
tech environment and also my experience.

It is competitive when you are starting out, but developers are high in
demand. As someone now more in an employer role (which I'm not hiring now), I
would look at Open Source work over a degree. If you have a github account
with a maintained project or two, especially with a few stars, I'll think you
are more qualified than if you have just a BS.

------
anigbrowl
I'm smart and dropped out, but regretted it later on both pragmatic and
personal bases. Is there a possibility to switch schools, or live off-campus
and avoid some of the social stuff? Also, consider taking some of your savings
and chatting to a psychologist psychiatrist, one that relates to you as an
adult individual instead of a student.

If you do drop out your parents will get over it, eventually, but being tagged
as a failure is unpleasant in the short term and burdensome in the long term.
At least come up with a plan B (for yourself, not for them) to finish your
education on your own terms at your own pace. Also, have you considered the
possibility that your vocation doesn't necessarily have to line up with your
education? If you're doing well as a self-taught programmer and so forth,
perhaps you'd be happier studying something quite different from whatever you
started with - medieval history or astrobiology or philosophy, say.

~~~
bookreader
Can you be more specific about why you've regretted dropping out? If you're a
programmer, how much has it hurt your career? I unfortunately don't think
switching schools is an option for me.

~~~
anigbrowl
Three reasons.

One, practical: I'm European, and found that my options for living in other
countries were narrowed by not having a degree. I would probably have moved to
Japan for several years if I had had one, since it's a prerequisite for
getting a work visa in that country and (obviously) being a westerner in that
country causes you to stick out like a sore thumb and they're super-
bureaucratic about this. I'm just personally interested in Japan and Japanese
culture, so I regret foreclosing that option for myself.

Two, socioeconomic: although a bit of an introvert, I think there's enormous
value to the personal networks you can build up in college, in terms of
meeting potential mentors, colleagues and so forth. Now, I think there's
(pan-)social downsides to that system, and somewhat disapprove of the whole
'Greek system.' But overall I think college provides access to considerable
social capital, whose utility may not be apparent in the short term but which
makes a huge difference for most people over the longer term. Most of us are
not Bill Gates, and the fact is that Gates inherited a lot of social capital
from his parents.

Three, intellectual: Although I enjoy being a self-directed learner and feel
pretty confident about my smarts, I do go through deep and horrible abysses of
self-doubt, and often feel ashamed of not having fulfilled my intellectual
potential by completing and exploiting a degree. I'm just shy of 43 now;
whereas in my 20s I felt very proud of my ability to learn, navigate life, and
make a living sans degree (and still do in many respects; I've built an
impressive resume as a high-level film technician over the last decade despite
never having taken a film class), these days I hate admitting that I don't
have a degree and feel that my career overall has stalled for lack of
direction and focus. True, people often tout their degree as a substitute for
actual skill and experience, and an excess focus on credentialism is a
negative aspect of our society and economy. But at the same time, I am sick to
the back teeth of explaining why I don't have a degree, having to sell myself
from scratch every time instead of simply saying 'oh yes, I have a BS in
Economics from Berkeley' or whatever. Also, I struggle with a nagging feeling
of being a dilettante and lacking a solci intellectual focus, so when I'm down
in the dumps I don't feel like a smart guy who has a decent life in defiance
of the odds, but a bullshit artist whose run of relative good luck could end
at any time. Having to regularly re-sell yourself to yourself on your own
merits is just as tiresome as having to sell yourself to others. It's a large
and omnipresent confidence drain.

~~~
anigbrowl
PS you can email me if you want.

------
foobarbazqux
If you do decide to go back to school, I recommend taking advantage of the
free and confidential counseling clinic that they almost certainly have. Don't
tell your family about it unless you want to - it can be felt as a betrayal.
See someone on a weekly basis to sort through what's going on. It just helps
to talk, and counselors are trained to listen and empathize. Psychiatrists and
other medical doctors are generally not trained like this, they will instead
try to diagnose you with a disorder, so you might want to rely on them just
for medication if you go that route. There's lots and lots of free high
quality support on a university campus so don't be shy about taking advantage
of it. On the other hand, if counseling or therapy in your hometown is an
option for you if you drop out, that could help you figure things out too.

~~~
bookreader
Thanks for the advice. I think the depression would probably go away if I drop
out (unless I can't find a programming job at all). I have contract work for
the next year at least, so I'm not too worried.

If I go back, I'll definitely try out your suggestion of talking to counselor.

------
mathattack
There is surface advice, which addresses the high level problem at hand. You
got into an ivy league - make the most of it. Learn CS, math, philosophy and
whatever else interests you.

Then there is the root problem, which is depression. There is no rational
advice about "suck it up and go back to school" that will help here. Your
problem is uniquely yours, but you are not the only one to feel it. It is a
chemicals in the brain problem, not a willpower issue. Depression hits smart
people more than dumb people. (Shouldn't it be the other way around?) If you
can't go to your parents, do be aware that most Ivy League caliber schools do
have strong support networks if you look around.

If you want to talk, create and post a dummy email address and I'll shoot you
my contact info.

------
gyardley
If it's not going to make you kill yourself, go back to school. In American
society, a degree from an elite university is a skeleton key to opportunity.
It's a clear signifier for 'upper-class' in a society that likes to pretend
there's no such thing as class. They could teach you nothing except what wine
goes with the fish for four years straight, and it'd still be worth the price
of tuition.

I have a history degree from Stanford, and it's given me ridiculously unfair
advantages in areas _completely unrelated to history_. I can't even imagine
the easy mode my life would be set on if my degree was in something related to
what I do for a living. Giving up that kind of advantage because you're
temporarily depressed seems pretty foolish to me.

~~~
bookreader
I talked to several programmers, and they mostly said that a prestigious
degree only helps out with the first few jobs (though they said that no degree
at all is a slight to moderate negative). I'm not sure how accurate their
perceptions are, and I think the tech industry might also be unique in caring
less about prestigious credentials.

These programmers also said that a prestigious degree does help significantly
in other areas, like finance and law.

What areas has your Stanford degree helped you in?

~~~
gyardley
When many people hear you have a degree from a prestigious school, they
automatically assume you're smart and talented and right about whatever you're
talking about, even if it's unrelated to your degree. This is a general effect
that goes far beyond individual fields like science or law. Just being aware
of your school will cause many people to unconsciously defer to your opinions
and automatically treat you like their social superior.

This effect is so pronounced, some people try to _avoid_ saying where they
went to school, instead saying things like 'I went to school in the Bay Area'
or 'I went to school in Boston'. They find the automatic obseqious treatment
they get awkward, so they only mention their school when they _need_ to use it
for something they want.

In practice, this general 'we automatically respect your opinions and assume
you're right' effect makes getting all kinds of opportunities easier. Jobs,
promotions, meetings with and mentorship from powerful people, etc. It can
also help with petty bureaucrats, law enforcement, medical doctors - pretty
much everywhere.

It doesn't surprise me that programmers _say_ a prestigious degree doesn't
matter - this is America, after all, and automatically treating someone as
your better seems profoundly undemocratic. But saying you don't care about
prestigious degrees is kind of like saying 'advertising doesn't work on me'.
People who _actually_ don't care about and react positively to prestigious
degrees are very rare.

I'll add that I didn't know this effect existed when I was going to school - I
just wanted to be a history professor! I only noticed it later, when I
realized the game board of life was oddly slanted to favor me. But I bet your
_parents_ are very well aware of this, and that's why they want you to stay in
your school.

~~~
bookreader
Thanks for the informative response. Based on your experience with people from
prestigious schools, do you think this automatic deference is justified?

~~~
gyardley
Not really, no. A person with a degree from a prestigious school is likely to
be smarter than a person selected at random from the population, sure. But
that doesn't mean they should be deferred to in areas where they lack
knowledge and experience, and never automatically.

That said, we all get to deal with the world as it is, not as it should be,
and an Ivy degree is a pretty nice perk. It seems a shame to toss it away if
there are other ways to deal with your depression.

------
sejje
My advice is to ignore thoughts about what you don't want to do.

Focus on thoughts about what you do want to do. Figure it out, what your idea
of success is over the next 1-5 years (probably part of a plan of success for
your lifetime). Measure success in your own terms, not those of your parents,
peers, or anyone else.

Boil your 1-5 year down to some basic actions, and move to complete those
actions.

It's not easy to ignore outside pressures, but I think it's important to make
an attempt at being truly happy. Some people's measure of success might be to
make their parents proud, and so they should follow a course that makes that
happen.

~~~
_jss
If the idea of success over a year at a time is interesting, I recommend
reading 18 Minutes by Peter Bregman. It's a very practical guide to this
approach.

------
mswen
Does your family know why you took a gap year despite good academic
performance? If they don't know the reasons or only have a vague notion of why
you took a year off, it might be good to have one of those honest vulnerable
conversations and make sure they understand both the situational issues and
how it has impacted you emotionally.

I am a parent with a 19 year old at university. Despite my ambitions that she
proceed full speed ahead, I know that I value her mental health more than a
speedy completion of studies. You might find your parents more understanding
than you imagine if they know all the details.

~~~
bookreader
My parents are aware that I was depressed. I've also told them that I think
dropping out would be the better choice for my mental health.

They disagree and seem to think that I don't have enough wisdom (I think this
is what many Asian parents believe about twenty year olds).

They're not going to kick me out though if I drop out. And even if they do,
I've saved 18k and have contracting work for at least the next year. I think I
should be okay. I'm just asking for perspective and to see if I'm making any
serious mistakes in my reasoning.

~~~
anigbrowl
Most parents, not just Asian ones, believe this about 20 year olds.
Unfortunately, they're right.

The problem is that parents/society tends to say to 20 year olds 'you just
don't know, go ahead and do the conventional thing even if you don't feel good
about it, you'll be glad later when it comes to getting a better job/finding a
mate/buying your own home.' The benefits of a complete education seem so
obvious to them that anyone who doesn't want one appears obtuse, so they don't
make much effort to _sell_ the notion, any more than you or I would seriously
entertain a kid's stated willingness to be illiterate or innumerate.

If I could invent a time machine ('and if I had gone to college, maybe I
could...' \- nagging doubt like that hangs around :-) ), then I'd go back and
tell my youthful self that there's a bunch of cool stuff I'm missing out on,
even if if I have to go through a few false starts within the tertiary
education system before finding the right path.

It's _obviously_ not true that you can't get an education except by going to
college, because any smart person can educate themselves to a great degree,
and often at considerable speed. But proof of education is a valuable asset,
and access to a large social network and intellectual depth in an environment
devoted to rewarding your curiosity it a huge huge benefit.

What sort of things do you want to do in your life? Obviously it's nice too be
financially independent and so on right now, but that's practical stuff. Look
beyond your immediate needs, and assume for a minute that you'll probably be
able to enjoy a pleasant lifestyle and reasonable financial security because
you were lucky enough to get born where and when you did etc.. What would you
like to work on that you can't possibly do right now, but could imagine doing
one day? Astronaut? Tycoon? Philosopher? Dentist? (I presume _some_ people
must enjoy dentistry rather than just doing it because it pays well)

Give your imagination some time to operate. There must be _something_ that
you're interested in that would be an awful lot easier to achieve with an Ivy-
league education. Don't be too quick to rule out wacky possibilities because
they seem wacky. If you secretly dream of being Indiana Jones, then you'll
need an archaeology degree. Never mind just now how many jobs there are for
archaeologists, that's just a matter of competition which can come later.
Likewise, programming as you're doing now is an excellent means of making a
living and you could become $uper rich. The question is whether being a
computer programmer is the most awesome and desirable thing you can imagine
wanting to do with your life, or whether you're just doing it because it's
cool and you're good at it.

~~~
bookreader
I think the problem is that my parents seem to feel that college is a
necessity for a good life, which I think I disagree with. There seem to be
plenty of programmers without degrees.

The things I'm really interested in doing beyond practical needs don't require
a college degree, and in some ways I think three years in the real world would
be more valuable. I'm interested in entrepreneurship and non-fiction / fiction
writing, and both of those seem to benefit heavily from real world experience.

~~~
anigbrowl
Well, it helps. And don't make the mistake of thinking that college is not
real life, just because it's curated. Think of it like an intellectual
shopping mall :-)

------
mtdewcmu
See if there's a way that you can hang on to some option to return and finish
your degree, even if you are away for a few years. It sounds like you are not
interested in going back right now, but it would be good to have the option if
you ever change your mind.

Whatever you decide to do, keep your options open.

------
_jss
Are you more motivated to conquer your depression or to sidestep the
situation?

From an opportunity standpoint, this could be a chance to overcome a difficult
personal challenge (depression) while also being able to do something many
don't (go to university).

I hope that you find your answer.

~~~
bookreader
Thanks for the advice. I'm not sure if I want to try and conquer my depression
right now, but I'm definitely thinking about the choice ahead.

~~~
_jss
Oh, one more thing, spend an hour watching this:
[http://thisweekinstartups.com/thisweekin-startups/jerry-
colo...](http://thisweekinstartups.com/thisweekin-startups/jerry-colonna-
independent-lifebusiness-coach-former-vc/)

Jerry Colonna was at the top of the business world, partnered with Fred
Wilson, and couldn't out run his depression. How he solved it isn't going to
work for you, but he tells a wonderful story and really talks about what can
be at the core of our desires.

------
rdouble
Getting into an Ivy League program is pretty hard. Unless you're starting
Microsoft or Facebook it seems like a wasted opportunity if you didn't follow
through with it. It really opens up a lot of doors you wouldn't have without
the degree, or even with a degree from a 2nd tier school.

------
dllthomas
I don't have any advice that's not been said, but wanted to wish you luck
whatever path you take.

~~~
bookreader
Thank you!

