

Twenty-something job seekers: Quit whining and get creative - josh_earl
http://whiletruecode.com/post/quit-whining-and-get-creative

======
kylebrown
These antagonistic responses from self-satisfied baby boomers and Gen X'ers
really grind my gears. He compares the current recession to the late 70's, but
most economic stats place it closer to the Great Depression. He even concedes
that his bootstrap was the entry-level job he landed. And the studies cited in
the relevant links confirm the other side of his anecdote: populations which
enter the workforce in a recession are permanently disadvantaged (experience
never gained, gaps on resumes that never go away, so that when hiring finally
resumes its the fresh young guns who are chosen first).

The point isn't to whine and blame. The point is that we have to recognize the
structural forces we are up against, or we'll collectively lose the battle
(repeating a job search ad nauseum expecting different results).

I have one short response for my unsympathetic self-satisfied elders: _you_
don't come whining to _me_ a few decades from now when you're trying to retire
with no pension, no social security, an IRA of confetti, and massive
unexpected health costs.

We're in this together, so let's find a way out (self-righteous finger
pointing doesn't help). I'll end with Thiel's concluding words, from a recent
debate between him and George Gilder on The Prospects for Technology and
Economic Growth (its on youtube):

... "in a world where there's no growth and everything is zero-sum. There will
be a loser for every winner, and the people will start to suspect that the
winners are involved in some sort of a racket. That's not the kind of world
that I want to live in. I'd like us to find a way out. But if there is going
to be a way out of the wilderness we've been wandering in for the last 40
years, we have to start by acknowledging that we're lost in a desert and that
we're not in some sort of an enchanted forest. Thank you very much."

~~~
jasonkester
Surely there's nothing wrong with speaking from experience though?

As an example, I came out of school with a Mechanical Engineering degree in
1994, in Seattle. The other notable thing about Seattle in 1994 is the Boeing
was one of its cyclical "Hey, let's lay off another 10,000-odd engineers and
maybe hire them back in a few years" phases. That meant that for every job I'd
interview for, the second round would be me and half a dozen Boeing engineers
who'd been doing that exact job for ten years but were now willing to take an
entry level salary so that the bank didn't take their house. I don't imagine
it was a whole lot rosier than the job market you describe today.

After the better part of a year's worth of that same interview a couple times
a week, I followed the advice we just read in the article. I found a niche at
a place doing something sorta related to my degree (Environmental
Engineering), using a tiny sliver of the stuff I'd learned by accident at
university to convince them I was worth hiring (Fortran, which their models
were written in). Then I learned how to do the stuff I was hired to do. Then I
spent 4 years migrating from there to writing their first web apps, and only
then did I take off for a software shop and start down the road to where I can
now antagonistically respond in a self-satisfied manner.

So yeah, things were (and are, and will continue to be) tough all over. Try
not to think you're in some special circumstance where time-tested advice
doesn't apply to you.

~~~
kylebrown
One can try not to think, but denial is counter-productive. I imagine that the
job market in Seattle in 1994 was in fact a lot rosier than it is today, and
charts will confirm that. You don't think there's more graduates with degrees
in Environmental Engineering today, swarming all related niches (because the
unemployment rate is also higher)? The data confirms it.

Those kind of lucky breaks (hire you first and then pay you while you learn?!)
just don't come around like they used to. Things were obviously not tough all
over, like they are now. There's a mass of empirical evidence to show this. I
don't why our elders continue to deny it (to their own future detriment!)
other than so they can bask in their own self-satisfaction.

Not to say that time-tested advice doesn't apply. It does, but it just doesn't
work like it used to!

------
mistercow
The problem with taking advice from someone who has succeeded is that you
never know how much of their success was simply luck, and how much was
actually strategy. As for the successful people themselves, they tend to
believe wholeheartedly that their success is at most 10% luck. This is usually
optimistic.

The fact is that no matter how faithfully you reproduce the superstitious
rituals of a past lottery winner, your odds will be the same as everyone
else's. It is foolish to walk in someone else's footsteps before you assess
the odds and find out how much effect the strategy actually has, and that
successful person is not who you should talk to to make that assessment.

~~~
paulhauggis
"As for the successful people themselves, they tend to believe wholeheartedly
that their success is at most 10% luck. This is usually optimistic."

Winning the lotto is nearly 100% luck.

Changing your strategy because you keep failing over and over until you
finally succeed is 90% non-luck.

I'm really tired of people looking at anyone successful and saying that
somehow there wasn't nearly as much skill or dedication involved, it MUST be
luck.

~~~
randomdata
_Changing your strategy because you keep failing over and over until you
finally succeed is 90% non-luck._

What is the difference between changing your business strategy and changing
your gambling strategy? If you tried lottery tickets and the horse track, then
finally hit the jackpot at the slot machines, would you say that 90% of the
win was due to your active involvement in choosing the game?

~~~
paulhauggis
I suppose using this logic, getting a PHD is luck too. So is running a
marathon or any other thing you accomplish in life.

~~~
mistercow
That's not even a response to what randomdata said. S/he observed, correctly,
that switching strategies until you succeed does not _imply_ that you were not
lucky. On the other hand, we can _demonstrate_ extremely strong correlations
between very specific applications of effort/skill and success at getting PHDs
and marathons.

------
omgsean
This is kind of ridiculous. Just because our industry is doing well doesn't
mean that everyone is in a position to drop everything and learn to code. You
had a lifetime of computer expertise to build upon, not everyone does.

The reason that the younger generation feels entitled is that they were
convinced by the older generation to go deeply in debt TO the older generation
for an education and a piece of paper that many of them are quickly finding is
worthless.

It's like a nationwide, academic version of "oh you'll definitely be a great
model, just pay me a few thousand dolars for these head shots and the work
will start rolling in!" They got scammed.

~~~
Total_Meltdown
(Disclaimer: I've only been to one school - a state university. Your results
may vary.)

I think we've forgotten that higher education is supposed to be an investment
in a high-paying career (the return). As a current-student twenty-something, I
can remember in high school when the rule was basically: people go to college,
losers go to vocational schools, failures go straight to work.

As absurd as it seems now, it's unfortunately what we were fed (though not in
so many words). College was never an investment for us, it was just the next
phase of school if you weren't so terribly below average that nobody would
accept you.

There is a lot of resentment, especially in the liberal arts and sciences type
fields, toward higher education. Personally, if I was in charge of any hiring
right now, I would look a lot more at practice and experience than at degrees
and education. And I don't think I'm alone.

~~~
randomdata
_I think we've forgotten that higher education is supposed to be an investment
in a high-paying career (the return)._

I believe you meant to say that it isn't supposed to be an investment in a
high-paying career.

Education, like any other hobby, is an investment in yourself. The return is
what you take away in joy from having participated in the activity. Like any
hobby, the chances of finding financial rewards are greater by having done
said hobby (think of how many have made fortunes by playing in a band, or
playing sports, etc.), but the pursuit has always been about more than just
money. Monetary returns are a nice bonus when one gets lucky, but it is still
worth the cost and effort either way.

One year of post-secondary employment would be an interesting prerequisite for
college, as a filter to weed out those who are only there because they believe
it is the only path to employment. Unfortunately, it could, under certain
circumstances, also keep people who are there for legitimate reasons away.

------
azmenthe
"Hang out my shingle and start my own accounting firm."

Yes, a unemployable just-graduated accounting major with no CPA designation
and no network can just start his own accounting firm. Stop whining, it's SO
easy!(?)

~~~
keithpeter
No, it isn't that easy of course _but_ as the trainee accountant is getting
nowhere right now, perhaps some voluntary work with a local charity or an
'umbrella' organisation that provides book keeping/accountancy services to
local charities might help generate a bit of experience and a CV?

Just on a 'nothing to lose' basis with no expectation of magic. And getting
out the house, engaging with people who find keeping their books straight a
chore and who perhaps don't have a clear idea what their financial position
actually is... that bit where you have to _explain_ the procedures and perhaps
adapt them to a specific organisation's needs. Might just give the trainee
accountant that edge in the letter writing.

------
sp332
You can't blame the 20-somethings for 8% unemployment and rampant
underemployment.

~~~
pcopley
You're right.

However, you can blame them for the entitlement almost all of them seem to
feel. I say "them" even though I just recently turned 26 and for a long time
did have that feeling of entitlement. At the risk of parroting the article,
you can't go to college and expect anything, particularly in tech. You've got
to be willing to make below-market, almost slave wages in a crappy entry level
job or internship.

I changed careers a year and a half after I graduated with a Poli Sci degree
in 2008. The first gig I could get was a 6-month internship for $2,000. It's
taken me that and consulting quite a few web clients to get the point where I
could accept my first entry-level professional (corporate) programming gig
less than 4 months ago.

~~~
sp332
I just don't like the "quit whining" part of the title. Times are hard, you
can at least agree with the 20-somethings that far. The article should be
presented as methods of coping with a bad situation instead of pretending to
be a solution.

Edit: massive edit

~~~
paulhauggis
The problem is that if you write an article about coping, people will use that
as an excuse and not put in the effort needed to actually get a job, because
of the "bad economy".

Yes, the economy is bad. You just need to think of ways to differentiate
yourself from the thousands of other people trying to get the same position.
Will it definitely work? no, but it will give you a better chance at finding a
job.

I don't mind that people are so un-creative and entitled. It just gives me a
leg-up on the competition.

~~~
sp332
I can't agree. Your advice seems to be that everyone should differentiate. But
how would that help improve unemployment? No matter how "creative" everyone
gets, many of them will still be unemployed.

~~~
paulhauggis
Because there are so many people unemployed, a potential employee really needs
to be at the top of their game to get a good job, but it also requires
marketing yourself (to stand out among the thousand other resumes).

When I was looking for work, I would tailor my resume to the job. I might only
send out 5 resumes/day, but my response rate was many times higher than the
machine-gun approach.

If you really want to improve unemployment, make it easier for businesses to
survive through something like tax incentives. The businesses are the ones
hiring. Most people don't want to hear this. They would rather tax them to
death (and then wonder why they are leaving the US or laying off half their
staff).

------
simonbrown
> It meant bootstrapping myself into a highly specialized field, then
> competing for an entry-level position against better-qualified computer
> science graduates.

So if everyone took the same steps, no one would be better off?

------
wturner
While I agree with the don't whine sentiment due to the fact that if you're
reading the authors post you probably have access to clean water and a
computer (most of the world doesn't), I do agree with the poster "mistercow"
in that articles like this usually omit hypocrisy on the part of the
author(s). I've seen the "don't whine, you're entitled meme" projected from
some of the most spoiled and socially lucky people I've ever met. I've also
seen it projected by very economically disadvantaged and uneducated people
that routinely seem to sabotage their own potential. The answer is to accept
that everyone is a hypocrite and figure out creative ways to make this work
for you instead of against you.

------
x1
I wonder how the article reads if you %s/twenty/fifty/g. I've known older
programmers who have been self-described "unemployable" for several years now.

~~~
pcopley
In what sense? Age? Technical knowledge/ability?

I know a programmer in Austin who makes his living in FORTRAN. I'd imagine if
he loses that job he's pretty much SOL except for a few niche positions which
are likely filled already.

~~~
x1
Most of the defeated older programmers I've talked to feel that it is a young
person's game and they don't want to have to relearn something new and come
back as a junior. Quite often it seems like something simple that that is
holding them back, like not having knowledge with jquery or more UI tools, or
not knowing how to work in linux.

But I've never been unemployed for over a year and I have no idea what that
does to your confidence.

~~~
keithpeter
Going back 25 years: It doesn't do much for your confidence _at all_.

My way out was voluntary work, lead to engagement with a lot of different
people in local voluntary sector, lead to a paid post, which, in turn lead to
a teaching job. I could _see_ what Further Education college teaching was like
from my work with trainees, and I realised _I could do that_.

Never been out of work since...

What transferable skills do programmers have that could be used in different
fields?

------
batista
> _Twenty-something job seekers: Quit whining and get creative

But this articulate and intelligent job seeker would benefit from asking
himself a question: Why am I doggedly pursuing a strategy that is so clearly
failing?_

I.e: blame the victim.

Or: surely, if something worked for me, the author, it can work for millions
of unemployed people. The mass unemployment in the Great Recession was because
those people weren't creative enough.

Or: sure, you can find a job, you just have to leave this dignity thing
behind, and any sense that any member of society should be able to get a job
at his skill level, and jump through hoops like a trained monkey to try to
entice potential employers with your wit, determination and willingness to
work for less money until they deem it OK to properly hire you (or not). Also:
try changing field of work entirely.

