
How Automattic develops software for over 75M websites - madamdo
https://www.software-engineering-unlocked.com/episode-4-leif-singer/
======
lsinger
Some more information on how Automattic hires:

\- [https://automattic.com/work-with-us/how-we-hire-
developers/](https://automattic.com/work-with-us/how-we-hire-developers/)

\- [https://www.andyserong.com/2019/07/25/switching-jobs-and-
app...](https://www.andyserong.com/2019/07/25/switching-jobs-and-applying-for-
automattic/)

\-
[https://danq.me/2019/08/30/automattic-00/](https://danq.me/2019/08/30/automattic-00/)

~~~
K0SM0S
That was extremely interesting, thanks for the pointers.

There are really so many ways to conduct "hiring", the process of onboarding
someone new into a group; and this serves as impeccable illustration that if
you are willing to innovate in that regard, we can do so much more and so much
better today than just 10-20 years ago (and ever before).

The process of Automattic makes you want to work with them if only because
they seem to have a fantastic culture, really play the game at a higher level
on the 'human' part.

------
kevindong
> If that works out well, then, you are invited to do a trial, where you work
> alongside an Automatic team for a period of 1-3 months for ~10 hours per
> week. This trial is paid with 25 Dollars per hour.

$25/hour for a professional software developer is kind of insulting.
Particularly so if Automattic is looking the same tier of talent as the top
tech companies.

~~~
hayksaakian
Keep in mind that Automattic is a remote company.

Maybe $25 per hour won't attract local talent from silicon valley, but there's
a huge global market of talented engineers that would happily apply to work
remote at a company like Automattic.

~~~
MuffinFlavored
I don't know any developer who is excited to work for less than $40k/yr on the
absolute lowest, closer to $60k/yr.

Let me do the math..

Oh wow, I didn't realize that $60k/yr is $28/hr. I guess this does make sense
after all...

~~~
arczyx
>I don't know any developer who is excited to work for less than $40k/yr on
the absolute lowest

In my country, $40k/year is a super high salary, even the average senior
developer wouldn't make that much.

~~~
cutler
This can be a problem with remote working. It's fine if you live where
accommodation is cheap but if you're earning the same money living in a
metropolis it doesn't add up.

~~~
coderheed
But the companies in the metropolis either have to pay good wages relative to
the metropolis or hire remote. This won't really be a problem until/unless we
hit a tipping point in the number of companies hiring remote and I predict
that will take decades (unless something drastic happens).

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bluedino
This podcast is very hard to listen to. The way that both people talk, the
naiveness of the host....it sounds like Im listening to an infomercial for
tech jobs.

I realize that English isn't the native language of either speaker.

------
nodesocket
> If that works out well, then, you are invited to do a trial, where you work
> alongside an Automatic team for a period of 1-3 months for ~10 hours per
> week. This trial is paid with 25 Dollars per hou

How are you supposed to live/support a family on $1,100 a month for 1-3
months? Would be a hard pass for me if I was looking.

~~~
tweednose
What a joke. Work overtime on top of my job for $25/hr and no benefits?

Fact is the companies that are the most open on HN about compensation pay the
least (like Gitlab and Buffer).

My theory is that instead of paying more they simply cast a wide net via
hiring. If the net's large enough you'll find enough people willing to be paid
low rates.

You know who doesn't talk about salary? Companies that pay well and hire devs
who know what they're worth.

~~~
photomatt
I don’t want folks to get too hung up on the 25/hr number, it’s not meant to
be a negotiation or imply a salary — in fact it’s identical for every role at
the company, whether you’re doing a trial project in support, engineering, or
to be our new CFO. At the time when we introduced it other companies were
having candidates invest a lot of time to get hired with zero compensation,
which didn’t seem fair and we wanted to shift that. You can also compare 10-20
hours of a remote trial to the time spent flying to and from a city, being
there for a day, and doing lots of on-site work and interviews.

~~~
breck
I like it, especially that you have that as the trial salary for all positions
(seems like a good shared experience).

If someone is optimizing to maximize a few weeks of trial pay, probably not
the best fit.

Also, keep in mind that $25/hour is almost double the median wage of the USA.
The software world is a bubble right now. By all means, I advocate to take
advantage of that and save up, but don't get angry when a company's wages
aren't 10x that of a non-software role. Sure, you can make a lot more money
going to a company that earns a lot of money (generally via exploitation of
unfair intellectual monopoly laws) while creating little surplus value for the
world, or you can join a company like Wordpress that creates far more value
for the world than they capture.

~~~
scarface74
I’ve been a software developer since 1999. (before then I was a half
developer/half operator for 3 years while going to graduate school). I have
never made less than $25 hour.

So if there is a “bubble” it’s been going for two decades for me - and this is
in Atlanta.

~~~
breck
Thanks for the data point. I also have been a programmer since 2008 or so and
don’t think I’ve ever made that either. But I also have done a lot of unpaid
programming interviews and/or take home assignments. And also generally have
worked at places with strict Intellectual Monopoly assignment agreements. So
that’s why I think this particular offer isn’t so bad.

~~~
scarface74
$45K was the average going salary in 1999 for 2-3 years of experience in
Atlanta as your bog standard corporate developer. The average salary for a
college graduate now is $50K ([https://www.thebalance.com/college-graduate-
salaries-expecta...](https://www.thebalance.com/college-graduate-salaries-
expectations-vs-reality-4142305))

~~~
beefalo
50k seems really low for new grads today even in Atlanta.

~~~
scarface74
I conflated two numbers. Everyone was mentioning that $25 is twice the average
wage in America (which is a little off). If you use what I feel is a more
accurate baseline - the average wage of a college grad in any area across the
country. $50K is a better number.

------
cryptozeus
Side point but...

“In this episode, I talk to Leif Singer, an engineer at the fully remote
company

Why some of the big tech is still not very remote friendly like FB, Google,
Apple etc.

------
ykevinator
It's php right?

~~~
basilgohar
WordPress is written in PHP, but Automattic (the company that develops
WordPress) has other products that are written in other languages.

~~~
galenko
The new editing interface (Gutenberg) has been written in react and there are
rumours about more of the backend being rewritten in it too.

edit: I meant more of the admin area, sorry.

~~~
marcolussetti
The backend being rewritten in React? Maybe I'm missing something but I don't
think that's at all correct...

------
not_a_cop75
Why do I feel like this is the most extreme form of clickbait? Imagine vi or
vim was marketed by how many workstations used it for modifications.

~~~
CharlesW
Isn't "clickbait" sensationalistic? In this case, the title and content strike
me as boringly factual.

~~~
dmix
Software that works with 75M users? Oh wow I gotta click on this!

~~~
meesles
That scale is not even on the extreme end of articles we are privy to these
days.

Do you want titles like "How Automattic develops software for websites"?
Boring.

~~~
azangru
How Automattic develops Wordpress would have been ok :-)

~~~
bushido
Maybe, but not everyone knows that Automattic is the core team behind
Wordpress.org and Wordpress.com.

