
Kindergarten coders can program before they can read - davidw
http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg21929275.800-kindergarten-coders-can-program-before-they-can-read.html#.UfLVScX2UgQ
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noonespecial
My eldest was already doing amazing things with his arduino when he was 7,
well before his reading and writing skills caught up. I deliberately held back
with help on certain things to force him to RTFM. His fierce desire to figure
it out did wonders for motivation.

It is gratifying to hear an 8 year old correctly use "instantiate" in
conversation. We did have to warn him about using "magic" words amongst his
"muggle" friends.

~~~
vidarh
> We did have to warn him about using "magic" words amongst his "muggle"
> friends.

Probably a good idea. I've on occasion realized that I was talking to someone
about killing orphaned children in public within earshot of assorted people
who are unlikely to understand the context, and having to hope that the
mention of daemons and zombies in the same conversation makes it clear we're
not actually planning murder.

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hrjet
A kid near my house was being excessively naughty. So his mom asked him "how
old are you?" to remind him to be a bit sober.

He had answered that question many times before, so this time he answered it a
bit differently: "I am birthday number old". Mom says: "Huh? That doesn't make
sense. What did you mean?"

He says: "I mean, I am as old as the number of birthdays I have celebrated".

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davidw
It's disappointing that the environment mentioned does not appear to be
generally available:

[http://ase.tufts.edu/DevTech/ScratchJr/ScratchJrHome.asp#tec...](http://ase.tufts.edu/DevTech/ScratchJr/ScratchJrHome.asp#technology)

I would have loved to try it out with my daughter.

~~~
walshemj
It is included in the default OS distribution for the raspberry PI.

~~~
zhemao
I think that's just regular Scratch, not Scratch Jr.

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lowglow
Isn't learning to read and learning to program basically the same thing?
You're putting direction to syntax to complete a statement in either case. I
don't see what the big leap is. Am I missing something?

~~~
anigbrowl
No, far from it. I continue to be bemused by many programmers' fetishization
of text.

This is the sort of thing I like to work with: [http://www.recordjob.de/wp-
content/uploads/2009/10/Reaktor5_...](http://www.recordjob.de/wp-
content/uploads/2009/10/Reaktor5_Screenshot_interface.jpg)

This one is aimed somewhat more at roboticists, and has a Ruby interface:
[http://www.dsprobotics.com/flowstone.html](http://www.dsprobotics.com/flowstone.html)

This is a flatter (non-nesting) system, but the one which I use most because
it's so fast to prototype in (and these days I care more about composition
than systemization): [http://bagger288.com/goldenmaster/wp-
content/uploads/2009/12...](http://bagger288.com/goldenmaster/wp-
content/uploads/2009/12/granpatch.jpg)

~~~
socillion
This is the sort of thing I've worked with:
[http://img.thedailywtf.com/images/201104/labview.jpg](http://img.thedailywtf.com/images/201104/labview.jpg)

Get 5+ of those controlling a robot and you can have a terrific time
debugging. I think it's scarred me for life; I'd rather use Java than write a
program in a graphical language again.

~~~
anigbrowl
That looks like a good time to me! I like to see the structure of what I'm
working with, and that's something that gets lost with text. But I agree that
it makes debugging more demanding, since you can't just set breakpoints and so
in the normal way; synchronization problems can be a headache. I think it's
got a lot more in common with breadboarding/circuit design/

I do recommend checking out Flowstone, or its earlier incarnation Synthmaker,
which allows programming in C and assembler as well as blackboxing modules.
This seems like the best of both worlds in many respects.

~~~
socillion
That's interesting, do you have a background in hardware? I find it much
easier to build a mental model from text, but I guess its because I'm not very
familiar with graphical tools.

I try to stay away from closed source development tools as a general rule, are
there any open source graphical tools you would recommend?

~~~
anigbrowl
I'm sorry that I can't suggest anything open source except for DSP hacking,
and that would Miller Puckette Pure Data system - but like a lot of open-
source tools, especially in this space, it's about as friendly as a leopard.
Very powerful, but also hideously ugly. Most pro users use a commercial
iteration of the concept called Max/MSP which also has a steep learning curve
but is quite interoperable with other platforms such as Processing.

I'm largely focused on audio processing because I'm into synths, but also on
sequencers which I find endlessfascinating in much the same way as wind-up
toys :) The problem is increasing complexity on larger projects, of course; I
tend to use the Nord Modular platform for preference because otherwise I could
spend all my time building and never get around to making music.

One commercial application that you might find interesting is the IDA
debugger. I found after I'd been doing this for a while that I developed a
strange affection for assembler and low-level debugging.

~~~
ics
I don't think Pure Data is as scary as people make it out to be. It's
certainly quite plain looking– similar to writing code with no syntax
highlighting– but once you settle in it's enormous fun and very
straightforward. The help browser in Pd-extended has enough examples and
tutorials to keep you interested. Considering how much similar applications
cost, PD should get a hardy recommendation!

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kvcrawford
Well, fancy that. As a young child, I liked to play King's quest, but I
couldn't quite read yet—so my mother wrote down the text commands on a sheet
of paper, for my reference.

And before that, I got my computer time in by way of a baby sling in my
father's lap. He said it seemed to calm me down and stop me from crying.

Start 'em young, I say!

~~~
unkoman
Those games were brutal for a 12 year old that barely could read or understand
english. One mistake and you lost days of work.

~~~
Zecc
Getting started early on life's lessons.

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ivanbrussik
I am going to be working with my small child (almost 3) to teach him how to
read and program at the same time using:

[http://scratch.mit.edu/projects/658960/](http://scratch.mit.edu/projects/658960/)

Hopefully my "tests" will go well and will video document.

~~~
wslh
Be quiet.... a child of 3 is not fully ready for that.

~~~
DanBC
Depends how it's done. It could be just play, and the child is learning at the
same time.

Learning to read is intensely political, with fierce arguments around it. At
the moment "synthetic phonics" is recommended.

An app that correctly teaches parents the sounds used would be great! (Also,
apps that teach parents 'new math', eg chunking, would be handy.)

~~~
wslh
(I am being downvoted in my previous comment)

Yes, depends how it's done but one thing is to know programming and a very
different one how to teach it. I expanded my approach in a new thread:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6112737](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6112737)

I think Scratch and Alice 3D are complex for a 3 years old. For that age I
would recommend to move something real/a-physical-object like a car or a robot
instead of watching exclusively the computer screen.

~~~
vidarh
You're presumably being downvoted for the combination of "Be quiet" and making
categorical statements without explaining your opinion.

Yes, they may be complex - my son was not really interested when he was 3 and
I showed him Scratch. I'm frankly more inclined to go with pure text or my
next try (he's 4 now; I started at 5; I'm not assuming he's guaranteed to show
the same interest I did, but I'm certainly going to ensure he gets the
opportunity).

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blablabla123
Maybe it's possible to teach Kindergarteners ARM assembly, this way they could
write super efficient ARM compilers before they are proficient in a human
language.

Just kidding. I remember a story about a French Mathematician (Lagrange?) and
while he was young someone saw his great talent. He recommended the mother not
to give him a math book before he turns 17. Obviously because he feared that
he would have done nothing else in life than math...

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cupcake-unicorn
I wonder about kids who can read at that age, like I could. Would they be
surpassing those who couldn't, or does the graphical layout really offer that
much flexibility?

In addition, it seems like a wasted opportunity to not throw some text in to
help teach kids to read at the same time.

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samstave
What are the long term implications to how one thinks if they learn to program
before they learn to read a language such as english?

Will the actual way they think be different? What will their thought processes
be like when they are teen/adult?

~~~
TallGuyShort
FWIW, I learnt a couple of programming languages when I was very young, and
immigrated to the US shortly thereafter. I find that I really struggle having
a conversation with anybody who doesn't use very precise language, and I
easily get caught up on little details of what someone says if it doesn't seem
consistent. I blame the coding.

~~~
cdvonstinkpot
Interesting, makes sense though that that would be the case.

~~~
kevinmchugh
Going off anecdotal data here I wouldn't assume cause goes one way or the
other. It's certainly possible TallGuyShort was able to/wanted to learn to
program as a child because he enjoyed precise language.

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asoto
There's a cool startup that's making a toy out of this concept. They're using
physical blocks (connected to an iPad) to teach kids sequencing:
[http://digitaldreamlabs.com/](http://digitaldreamlabs.com/)

~~~
cdvonstinkpot
That's really cool!

