
Show HN: I made a site that helps you find LGBT+ Travel Rankings and Gay Laws - 1hakr
https://visalist.io/travel/gay
======
lawlorino
Personally I'd like to see more information and transparency about how the
ratings are calculated and where the data is coming from for me to put faith
in the website and methodology, since that's the whole premise.

For example what does X% discrimination or persecution actually mean? How is
that quantified and why is it a percentage?

Edit: another thing that doesn't give me confidence in the website are the
frequent spelling errors, this is copy and pasted from the Netherlands
description and there is a mistake in almost every sentence.

> Netherlands is part of Europe with main city at Amsterdam. Its Developed
> country with a population of 17M people. The main currency is Euro. The
> languages spoken are Dutch. the Kingdom of the Netherlands is the formal
> name of Netherlands It is adviced to Exercise normal safety precautions

~~~
1hakr
I got the actual data from [https://spartacus.gayguide.travel/blog/spartacus-
gay-travel-...](https://spartacus.gayguide.travel/blog/spartacus-gay-travel-
index/) I just made it a percent to make it easy to compare and understand.

~~~
lawlorino
I would argue it doesn't make it easier to understand though, plus I'm sure
there is a mistake in your methodology. E.g. several countries you score as
67% in equal age of consent when they have laws specifying this. What is a
100% then? Moreover the guide you posted gives a max rating of 1 in this
category, therefore that's why I think you made a mistake mapping their scores
to percentages.

~~~
1hakr
Thanks, another user pointed it out and I fixed. Currently, the ranges are -3
to 3 for each category but for some, it's only 0 to -3 and accordingly I
changed it.

------
maxmalysh
This map is terribly wrong for some parts of the ex-USSR and Asia.

Coming out as a gay person in Tajikistan, Kyrgyzstan or Azerbaijan is
dangerous. Dangerous as in "there is a high chance you'll be beaten up and a
mild chance of being kidnapped and killed".

From the other side, Russia is not that bad. Not bad means "you can see gay
people kissing on the streets without repercussions" (in the European part of
the country).

Syria? Oman? Just no comments.

~~~
lightgreen
> you can see gay people kissing on the streets without repercussions

I never say gay people kissing (or even holding hands) even in Moscow.

Maybe Russia is not as bad as Syria, but that statement is not true.

~~~
maxmalysh
YMMV, but check Google Maps to see how many gay bars are there in Moscow.

~~~
lightgreen
Yeah, but none of them is openly gay. For example, they can't practically
display a rainbow flag near the entrance. These are "underground" bars and
clubs.

~~~
KarlKemp
As underground as one can be on Google maps.

------
1hakr
I was looking for a way to check a website where I can find Gay-friendly
countries when one of my friends asked me as I have built the Visa List.
Surprisingly I found very few blogs and they had very few countries and didn't
tell me how safe every country is. So I decided to build a full functionality
where you can find each and every country with their travel ranking with their
civil rights, discrimination, and persecution against gay people. You can sort
by most and least friendly and visualize it on a map.

I would love to get feedback and improve the travel experience for LGBT+
community.

~~~
notahacker
I like the design and intent, but I'm not sure mapping the scores to
percentages works. I can't see how the UK's equal age of consent [since 2000]
works out at '67%' for example.

I'm also pretty sceptical of the underlying data anyway: I'm also perplexed by
the idea that the UK has a significant negative religious influence, and I'm
pretty sure Pride is banned in Saudi Arabia

~~~
DanBC
The Church of England just said that sex is for married hetero-sexual couples
only.

[https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/newsbeat-51233003](https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/newsbeat-51233003)

~~~
notahacker
It also said sorry for offending people very quickly afterwards, and more to
the point has tiny and declining attendance and minimal impact on attitudes
towards homosexual tourists. The idea that it's more hostile and influential
on the subject of homosexuality than, say, the Catholic church in most
Catholic majority countries doesn't really stack up.

~~~
DanBC
It's the official state religion and is represented in the house of lords.
That's real actual power, albeit moderated by the rest of the HoL. And, while
they apologised, they stuck by that announcement.

We also have Catholic churches here, who've made similar pronouncements about
relationships of gay people.

We've had a long running demonstration outside primary schools by Muslim
people complaining about age appropriate lessons about relationships.

A transwoman was ostracized by her orthodox Jewish community to the point
where she was unable to see her children. Despite winning the various court
cases she's now given up trying to have contact with her children.

Religious intolerance of LGBTQ relationships is widespread in the UK across
most religions.

~~~
notahacker
Nobody is saying that religious prejudice in the UK is nonexistent. What I am
saying is the data source's conclusion that the UK has a high level of
religious prejudice not found in the rest of Western Europe is palpably
absurd.

'But I have to worry about the power of bishops in the House of Lords', said
no tourist ever.

~~~
DanBC
Are you ignoring Northern Ireland?

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Northern_Irelan...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Northern_Ireland)

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic_Unionist_Party#Soci...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic_Unionist_Party#Social_policies)

EDIT: Also, it's weird to discount the fact that about one third of all
schools in England are faith schools - most of those are either Church of
England or Catholic. Ofsted requires schools to teach about same sex
relationships, but Ofsted doesn't prevent schools from teaching that these
relationships are sinful.
[https://www.secularism.org.uk/opinion/2019/07/faith-
schools-...](https://www.secularism.org.uk/opinion/2019/07/faith-schools-must-
stop-stigmatising-same-sex-relationships)

------
hardtoswallow
As a gay man, you're safer and better off in Singapore than you would be in
most parts of Europe and the top portion of the list. Yet Singapore is down at
92.

Interpret this however you want, but the list flawed. Laws don't mean shit
unless they're enforced and that goes both ways. "Bad" laws not enforced is
better than good laws not enforced.

~~~
1hakr
Thanks for the feedback mate. I got this data from Spartacus website. Do you
think it's not accurate? What about all the other countries?

[https://spartacus.gayguide.travel/blog/spartacus-gay-
travel-...](https://spartacus.gayguide.travel/blog/spartacus-gay-travel-
index/)

~~~
netsharc
Fucking hell, your defense against all the criticism is that "Oh it's data
from some 3rd party!", which is more or less saying "not my fault!".

As another has said, this is less than useless, this is dangerous. And if it's
the source that's wrong, then the source is also dangerous, but you're
spreading dangerously wrong information. I hope no LGBT+ person actually
depends on your site, because it might get them fucking killed.

Besides, having the info be country-wide is not granular enough. A gay
traveller would probably feel very safe in San Francisco but not feel very
safe in some little town deep in Alabama.

~~~
mtnGoat
I'm a straight male and I feel uncomfortable in parts of TN, WV, AL, GA. I go
there to see family and I don't like it. I feel like some of these folks don't
just dislike LGBT, they dislike everyone. Downtown Seattle at 4am in cracktown
is safer, then small town WV as an outsider.

Edited for spelling

------
learnstats2
Poland scores much higher than South Korea.

Poland has areas which have declared themselves LGBT-free zones. South Korea
is higher on the Human Development Index but is described as "developing".

This is just nonsense, isn't it?

~~~
nec4b
LGBT-free zones are places free of LGBT ideology and not LGBT people. Totally
different meaning.

~~~
rewq4321
> Totally different meaning.

If people aren't allowed to express who they are or their beliefs for fear of
literally being bricked or kicked in the face [0][1] then you're banning LGBT
people (and obviously "LGBT ideology" too).

[0] [https://www.lgbtqnation.com/2019/07/bigots-attacks-pride-
mar...](https://www.lgbtqnation.com/2019/07/bigots-attacks-pride-march-
throwing-bricks-burning-rainbow-flags/)

[1]
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l-l67aCX0vA](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l-l67aCX0vA)

~~~
nec4b
I agree with you that if you ban LGBT people your are also probably banning
LGBT ideology. But banning LGBT ideology does not mean banning LGBT people.
Being a LGBT person does not mean that you automatically subscribe to an LGBT
ideology.

~~~
detaro
This sounds awfully like "as long as you don't do anything visible you can be
LGBT", with "LGBT ideology" being things like "you should be allowed to be
recognizably LGBT in public", "you should be allowed to talk about being
LGBT", ...

At least that's how it usually goes when this argument comes out.

~~~
danbolt
I agree. This strikes me as a Motte-and-bailey attitude towards LGBT
acceptance in society.

------
afroboy
So many fake data on this, ok let's take Algeria as example of course it's not
place for gay people but i'm questioning the data let's start by Death
Sentence Algeria doesn't have death sentence at all and in this it tell you
they will execute gay people well bullshit, and being gay is not illegal but
not socially accepted big difference, pride is definitely banned but it tell
you is not,Religious Influence is 67% well no way it's 100% etc.

------
MacsHeadroom
Love the idea. Terrible execution. Here's some constructive criticism:

The site currently is as useless as listing the average elevation of countries
to determine where mountains and valleys exist. Utterly useless.

Texas would be one of the largest and most populous countries in the world if
it was a country. Yet it is grouped together with states that couldn't be more
different. Even WITHIN Texas LGBT acceptance in Austin TX and El Paso TX
couldn't be more different.

 __ _What would actually be useful?_ __

A heat-map style visual of the world; granular to the level of regions with
200k+ people.

P.s. Make data source contribution a moderated community effort. Do not rely
on terribly non-granular data sources constructed by people who don't actually
live in the regions you're providing information about.

------
anonnyj
There's a bunch of variance of acceptance depending on where exactly you are
in the LGBTP+ spectrum, no? For that reason alone it seems like you'd need
more granularity on the details.

------
sersi
Not sure about the accuracy. France says locals hostile at 33% while Russia
only has locals hostile at 17% and locals hostile at 0% in Singapore...Oh and
locals hostile at 17% in Saudi Arabia!!!

I'd say those numbers are totally wrong. This is the kind of project where
hacking a quick solution together could lead to bad consequences so care
should be taken with the numbers you give.

I wonder if this is because of how you convert to percentages? I haven't
looked yet at the data in spartacus.

Also it is true that there's a difference between gay tourists who are less
likely to be bothered in certain religious countries compared to residents.

~~~
1hakr
I got this data from Spartacus. All these numbers are based on data from them
[https://spartacus.gayguide.travel/blog/spartacus-gay-
travel-...](https://spartacus.gayguide.travel/blog/spartacus-gay-travel-
index/)

~~~
JshWright
Do you mention they anywhere on your site?

~~~
keanzu
Yes, he does. It is on the RHS on the "LGBT+ Travel Rankings of the world"
page (linked in OP).

"This ranking is based on 14 different paramters like civil rights,
discrimation and persecution by Spartacus LGBT+ Travel."

~~~
JshWright
Oh, yep I guess it is there. Seems like it could be a little more prominent,
since this is basically just their dataset, with some filtering and ads (and a
more confusing representation of the score).

~~~
keanzu
> Oh, yep I guess it is there.

Yes, but it wasn't obvious to me. I only spotted it after careful reading AND
knowing the data source was Spartacus. Anyone unfamiliar with that outlet
probably wouldn't pick up on the connection. Given the HEAVY reliance on their
data I agree that more prominence and a link would be nice.

------
davedx
Great website, really nice UX. Small bug with some of the data -- spot the
"undefined"s:

"United States has a LGBT+ travel rank of 53 with a total gay travel score of
57. United States is part of Americas with main city at Washington, D.C.. Its
Developed country with a population of 324M people. The main currency is
undefined. The languages spoken are English. the United States of America is
the formal name of undefined"

~~~
JshWright
I bet you could ask 100 people what the "main city" in the US was and none of
them would say D.C.

In general the U.S. seems varied enough that a single score isn't really
meaningful... There's a pretty big difference between Seattle and rural
Mississippi.

~~~
_-___________-_
Maybe "main city" is a mistranslation of "capital"?

------
Benneb
The data seems pretty out of date for Taiwan. LGBT couples can be married, and
stepchildren can be adopted.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Taiwan](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Taiwan)

~~~
1hakr
This is based on 2019 report. I will update it on my site. Thanks mate!

------
keanzu
> Equal Age of Consent: 67%

What does this mean? Spartacus has a 1 or 0 (true/false?) in this column.

~~~
1hakr
No actually, If there are positive developments it will be scored from 1,2 or
3 and if there are negative developments then it will -1,-2 or -3 and if there
isn't anything going on regarding that then it will be 0

~~~
lawlorino
I don't think this is right for every category though, the only thing in the
methodology I could find is this

> The categories have different levels. If a category has three levels, a
> maximum of three points can be awarded.

Keyword being "if". They don't specify which categories these are. Logically
how could you score higher than a 1 in equal age of consent, that's a true or
false question right?

~~~
keanzu
I checked 2017, 2018 and Canada held a consistent 1 score. I also found this
in the 2017 document:

"With regard to anti-discrimination laws up to 3 points can be awarded, making
a distinction, for example, whether the principle of non-discrimination on
grounds of sexual orientation in the constitution or only in a law for a
specific area is shown."

[https://spartacus.gayguide.travel/gaytravelindex_2017.pdf](https://spartacus.gayguide.travel/gaytravelindex_2017.pdf)

Also in 2019 Kenya managed a -1 score. Presumably they had equality and
repealed it.

------
excitedleigh
Like so many others, these rankings seem to be far more focused on the LGB
than the T.

Also, the site tells me that I'll get murdered or sentenced to death if I
visit a given country, and then immediately below that displays an ad for
flights to that country's capital city. I really don't think your CTR is going
to be high on that particular ad placement.

------
ainar-g
[https://visalist.io/russia/gay-travel](https://visalist.io/russia/gay-travel)

> The main currency is undefined.

It's the Russian Rouble (RUB).

> the Russian Federation is the formal name of undefined

I'm not sure what this is supposed to say, but according to the Russian
constitution, the names “Russia” and “the Russian Federation” are synonymous.

At first I was surprised at how low the Russian Federation is on the list, but
then I remembered that Chechnya exists. I guess a lot of these pages should
have a note that YMMV, depending on the region and the city. Moscow shouldn't
be that much different from Kiyiv or, say, Warsaw, while the North Caucasus
regions are clearly closer to fundamentalist societies when it comes to LGBT+
rights.

~~~
TFortunato
Africa is a very large continent with countries that range from "have
legalized same sex marriage" to "have death penalty for homosexuality", so
saying a region is "clearly closer to Africa when it comes to LGBT+ rights"
doesn't make a ton of sense..

~~~
ainar-g
You're right, that part was badly worded. I've changed it.

------
JoeAltmaier
The 'Green Book' is back? Useful if accurate, but a sad commentary as well.

------
onyva
Israel is probably one of the few countries other than the USA were LGBTQ+
people were attacked and killed in public or in private spaces.

An ashkenazi religious Jew stabbed and killed a girl in a gay pride event in
Jerusalem, and the government coalition is made up of some of the most
externally homophobic (also Ashkenazi) MPs.

Israel has an image of tolerance because of TLV, which was mostly a tourism
driven policy or gimmick. The rest of the country is really not gay friendly
at all and personal safety is something to consider if you travel outside of
TLV.

Mind you the murder of youth in a gay community club took place in TLV.

~~~
koheripbal
A simple Google Search proves this comment completely wrong...

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Significant_acts_of_violence_a...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Significant_acts_of_violence_against_LGBT_people)

~~~
onyva
The stubbing happened in public during a pride event in Jerusalem. Daylight.

The shooting in the youth club was of a guy who burst in and gunned them down.

Israel does not allow same sex marriage and having your right recognized l, if
you got married outside is constantly challenged, as well as adoption by
LGBTQ+ parents.

Openly homophobic MPs are almost as common as islamophobic or xenophobic
(asylum seekers) ones, and no one was fired for any of the vile public
statements made.

Israel’s image as a tolerant country is not reflected in its reality, as much
as its claim to be the only democracy in the Middle East. It’s neither.

------
philliphaydon
> Singapore is part of Asia with main city at Singapore. Its Developing
> country with a population of 6M people.

Singapore is a first world country.

~~~
1hakr
fixed it

~~~
ValentineC
Singapore claims Developing Country status in the WTO [1], so it's not
entirely inaccurate.

[1] [https://www.channelnewsasia.com/news/singapore/singapore-
sup...](https://www.channelnewsasia.com/news/singapore/singapore-supports-
update-of-wto-rules-developing-country-status-11918958)

------
robjan
It misidentifies Macau as a "developing" region, despite having one of the
highest HDI in the world.

~~~
1hakr
Thanks for pointing it out, I have updated it.

------
mkl
It looks like you have a typo: "civit rights" instead of "civil rights".

Where do the numbers come from?

~~~
1hakr
Thanks! fixed it. I got the data from
[https://spartacus.gayguide.travel/blog/spartacus-gay-
travel-...](https://spartacus.gayguide.travel/blog/spartacus-gay-travel-
index/) which is also present in wikipedia

------
laumars
Interesting project

Does this account for how regional variation within each country? Because even
in the UK, peoples attitudes can vary wildly from one town and city to
another.

~~~
1hakr
This is now based on country laws only. I haven't looked into how it's
perceived in different regions in each country

------
pokgak
Where does the data come from?

~~~
1hakr
I collected the data from [https://spartacus.gayguide.travel/blog/spartacus-
gay-travel-...](https://spartacus.gayguide.travel/blog/spartacus-gay-travel-
index/)

------
jaclaz
> Italy

>Italy has a LGBT+ travel rank of 40 with a total gay travel score of 60.
Italy is part of Europe with main city at Rome. Its Developed country with a
population of 61M people. The main currency is undefined. The languages spoken
are Italian. the Republic of Italy is the formal name of undefined

The currency is _Euro_ , pretty much defined.

Republic of Italy is the formal name of _Italy_.

And the overall rating at first sight seem way off.

Most probably it is brought down by the 0% in "adoption allowed" which I
cannot see the relevance of in the case of a travel.

------
emilfihlman
Nothing happens when I press on the filter selection.

Latest Chrome mobile on Android 10.

------
keanzu
> This ranking is based on 14 different paramters

*parameters

------
onyva
Also, according to International Monetary Fund, Russia is a developing, not
developed, country.

------
jlengrand
civit rights -> civil rights?

------
thepangolino
The website deliberately breaks if no javascript.

