
Local Motors: collaborative car design, construction, and purchase - ivankirigin
http://www.local-motors.com/
======
vaksel
I spent some time in photoshop turning it into a sports car, and here is the
result:

<http://i41.tinypic.com/30cc6cz.jpg>

For $50K people would buy it, wouldn't matter if it was powered by hampsters
or a Supercharged V8.

Why? Because it would remind them of a baby Aston Martin. For engine choice I
would probably use the engine out of the Chevrolet Camaro, GM is going
bankrupt, so you can probably buy the engines on the cheap. And those engines
are known for having a ton of potential. If GM doesn't work out, the 4.6L Ford
would have to do. Of course can always follow in Lotus footsteps, keep the
thing light, and use a supercharged/turbocharged 4 cylinder Honda/Toyota
engine

Thats the thing with most cars, looks account for 90% of public interest. As
long as you make a truly beautiful car, people will buy it, even if its a
complete piece of crap.

~~~
AriFerreira
I didn't see this before - your design has legs. I'm not big on the spoiler
but otherwise looks to be a beautiful "baby aston" just as you said. But I do
see Fisker, and I do see Aston - what about a new brand?

~~~
vaksel
All cars look more or less the same in the sports car segment. Yes it sorta
looks like an Aston, but there is enough difference for it to be its own car.
As far as its own brand, most of the "branding" is done on the front end of
the car. Shouldn't be that hard to design a brand new grille that is your own.

~~~
AriFerreira
I think this could have enough uniqueness to stand on its own. You're right
that the general shape of coupes or sedans is the same. But the long hood of
the Fisker (and this RF coupe) is significant, and could be a brand indicator.
The entire design language should be a brand indicator. I think GM had a
similar thought: that a brand is a marque and a grille. They built the same
cars w/ subtle changes and cannibalized Chevy and Pontiac. Not saying that is
what you are doing here, but I am saying that a brand extends far beyond a
grille.

------
jrogers
@vaksel Correction, I was distinguishing the 335 from the X6, we are using the
335d. As for why not the 335i, The carbon footprint is worse than the 335d
given that it is 30% less fuel efficient. We are focused on changing the
impact of vehicles and this is a good way to start. If we were going to go for
a gas system, we are prepared to offer the LS series engines. More hp by 430
vs 300. I hear you on the "Performance, Reliability, Price...choose 2" That
has been true in the past, but we do not think that applies when you compare
our product+experience to others product. LM is "Design, Performance,
Buildability, Price...choose 3 (green is a given)". Our customers want great
looking and great performance, and don't want to be keyed in the parking lot
for driving something whose mpg is measured in gpm vice mpg. If someone wants
to race and get more than the 425lb-ft from the 335d, then they have the room
to swap to an LS7 and to crank it up.

As for road legal, you are thinking of passenger car specs, this vehicle would
classify as a mixed use vehicle in which case many of the FMVSS specs to which
you are referring would not be applicable. Hope that helps.

As for buggies and dirtbikes occupying the market...I guess I am just not
going to be able to convince you and should not try. But here goes. ATVs and
Bikes are a TOTALLY different experience which require a much more fit rider
and mindset. Buggies are not anywhere near as capable as "trucks" made for
this landscape (to be precise, we are talking about 25mph max vs 70mph avg.)
Then there is the subject of Pre-running. Much of it today is done either in
sand-rail/types or in sup'd up F-150/types. Most races (i.e. Reno to Vegas)
are pre-run in a column of cars where you are simply eating dust the entire
day. So sandrails are miserable, go ask John Marking of Fox Racing. As for
sup'd up F-150 types after spending in excess of 150K you will have 10 inches
of wheel travel and a 7000lb vehicle that needs a 700+ hp engine to move it,
and it becomes a veritable space race of mass and power. The whole point is
that no company has ever seen the profit in making cars for this size market,
but LM makes cars with a much lower break-even volume allowing us to access a
much smaller niche. Even if you are right and the market is not as large as we
would want, we will have invested less than $2MM in the build program, so we
can afford to scrap it and move on to the next ...compare this to Fisker or
Tesla (other startup car co.'s) that have each raised in excess of $200MM and
only have 1 model competing in very VERY busy marget segments.

As for MA, you are at Y-Combinator and should understand this. Just because we
are starting in MA doesn't mean that we are finishing here. We are in a small
startup Ops Center. We have 2 letters of intent on properties in Phoenix and
are already working on our MA model. When we started we had no idea that the
community would like the performance off-road desert racing segment, so we
couldn't predict where would be best to go...so we dove in and got started.
Hindsight is 20-20, but I prefer to get going. After all, this is unlike any
start-up in any typical venture type market, so some of the nimble ideas do
not apply as well. We are building a car company in an intensely difficult
time and are taking risks where we feel appropriate and necessary and taking
them large. Where we do not need to take risk, we are intensely conservative.
I also hope that this helps.

Again, I am so stoked that you care enough to dig and to answer. I really
think that our community could use your insight...hope you will join
www.local-motors.com

------
jrogers
@vaksel Correction, I was distinguishing the 335 from the X6, we are using the
335d. As for why not the 335i, The carbon footprint is worse than the 335d
given that it is 30% less fuel efficient. We are focused on changing the
impact of vehicles and this is a good way to start. If we were going to go for
a gas system, we are prepared to offer the LS series engines. More hp by 430
vs 300. I hear you on the "Performance, Reliability, Price...choose 2" That
has been true in the past, but we do not think that applies when you compare
our product+experience to others product. LM is "Design, Performance,
Buildability, Price...choose 3 (green is a given)". Our customers want great
looking and great performance, and don't want to be keyed in the parking lot
for driving something whose mpg is measured in gpm vice mpg. If someone wants
to race and get more than the 425lb-ft from the 335d, then they have the room
to swap to an LS7 and to crank it up.

As for road legal, you are thinking of passenger car specs, this vehicle would
classify as a mixed use vehicle in which case many of the FMVSS specs to which
you are referring would not be applicable. Hope that helps.

As for buggies and dirtbikes occupying the market...I guess I am just not
going to be able to convince you and should not try. But here goes. ATVs and
Bikes are a TOTALLY different experience which require a much more fit rider
and mindset. Buggies are not anywhere near as capable as "trucks" made for
this landscape (to be precise, we are talking about 25mph max vs 70mph avg.)
Then there is the subject of Pre-running. Much of it today is done either in
sand-rail/types or in sup'd up F-150/types. Most races (i.e. Reno to Vegas)
are pre-run in a column of cars where you are simply eating dust the entire
day. So sandrails are miserable, go ask John Marking of Fox Racing. As for
sup'd up F-150 types after spending in excess of 150K you will have 10 inches
of wheel travel and a 7000lb vehicle that needs a 700+ hp engine to move it,
and it becomes a veritable space race of mass and power. The whole point is
that no company has ever seen the profit in making cars for this size market,
but LM makes cars with a much lower break-even volume allowing us to access a
much smaller niche. Even if you are right and the market is not as large as we
would want, we will have invested less than $2MM in the build program, so we
can afford to scrap it and move on to the next ...compare this to Fisker or
Tesla (other startup car co.'s) that have each raised in excess of $200MM and
only have 1 model competing in very VERY busy marget segments.

As for MA, you are at Y-Combinator and should understand this. Just because we
are starting in MA doesn't mean that we are finishing here. We are in a small
startup Ops Center. We have 2 letters of intent on properties in Phoenix and
are already working on our MA model. When we started we had no idea that the
community would like the performance off-road desert racing segment, so we
couldn't predict where would be best to go...so we dove in and got started.
Hindsight is 20-20, but I prefer to get going. After all, this is unlike any
start-up in any typical venture type market, so some of the nimble ideas do
not apply as well. We are building a car company in an intensely difficult
time and are taking risks where we feel appropriate and necessary and taking
them large. Where we do not need to take risk, we are intensely conservative.
I also hope that this helps.

Again, I am so stoked that you care enough to dig and to answer. I really
think that our community could use your insight...hope you will join
www.local-motors.com

------
jrogers
Correction, I was distinguishing the 335 from the X6, we are using the 335d.
As for why not the 335i, The carbon footprint is worse than the 335d given
that it is 30% less fuel efficient. We are focused on changing the impact of
vehicles and this is a good way to start. If we were going to go for a gas
system, we are prepared to offer the LS series engines. More hp by 430 vs 300.
I hear you on the "Performance, Reliability, Price...choose 2" That has been
true in the past, but we do not think that applies when you compare our
product+experience to others product. LM is "Design, Performance,
Buildability, Price...choose 3 (green is a given)". Our customers want great
looking and great performance, and don't want to be keyed in the parking lot
for driving something whose mpg is measured in gpm vice mpg. If someone wants
to race and get more than the 425lb-ft from the 335d, then they have the room
to swap to an LS7 and to crank it up.

As for road legal, you are thinking of passenger car specs, this vehicle would
classify as a mixed use vehicle in which case many of the FMVSS specs to which
you are referring would not be applicable. Hope that helps.

As for buggies and dirtbikes occupying the market...I guess I am just not
going to be able to convince you and should not try. But here goes. ATVs and
Bikes are a TOTALLY different experience which require a much more fit rider
and mindset. Buggies are not anywhere near as capable as "trucks" made for
this landscape (to be precise, we are talking about 25mph max vs 70mph avg.)
Then there is the subject of Pre-running. Much of it today is done either in
sand-rail/types or in sup'd up F-150/types. Most races (i.e. Reno to Vegas)
are pre-run in a column of cars where you are simply eating dust the entire
day. So sandrails are miserable, go ask John Marking of Fox Racing. As for
sup'd up F-150 types after spending in excess of 150K you will have 10 inches
of wheel travel and a 7000lb vehicle that needs a 700+ hp engine to move it,
and it becomes a veritable space race of mass and power. The whole point is
that no company has ever seen the profit in making cars for this size market,
but LM makes cars with a much lower break-even volume allowing us to access a
much smaller niche. Even if you are right and the market is not as large as we
would want, we will have invested less than $2MM in the build program, so we
can afford to scrap it and move on to the next ...compare this to Fisker or
Tesla (other startup car co.'s) that have each raised in excess of $200MM and
only have 1 model competing in very VERY busy marget segments.

As for MA, you are at Y-Combinator and should understand this. Just because we
are starting in MA doesn't mean that we are finishing here. We are in a small
startup Ops Center. We have 2 letters of intent on properties in Phoenix and
are already working on our MA model. When we started we had no idea that the
community would like the performance off-road desert racing segment, so we
couldn't predict where would be best to go...so we dove in and got started.
Hindsight is 20-20, but I prefer to get going. After all, this is unlike any
start-up in any typical venture type market, so some of the nimble ideas do
not apply as well. We are building a car company in an intensely difficult
time and are taking risks where we feel appropriate and necessary and taking
them large. Where we do not need to take risk, we are intensely conservative.
I also hope that this helps.

Again, I am so stoked that you care enough to dig and to answer. I really
think that our community could use your insight...hope you will join
www.local-motors.com

------
ivankirigin
Lots of talk about GM recently, so I thought I'd post something about a really
cool car company. I'm told that ~"At a design stage when GM has spent $10M,
we've spent $10K"

~~~
AriFerreira
Thanks for spreading the word, Ivan. The $10k is for the initial design and
some design development based on community desires; this number does not
include engineering and development. But all in all, the outcome is vastly
lower cost to market.

------
dan_the_welder
Doomed. Edit: Because it's ugly. I went and looked at more designs, most
belong to the "Art Instruction Schools" aesthetic.

Because it's vaporware. Have they made 'one' yet? How do they intend to make
the body? Fiberglass? That's the only thing they could possibly afford. If and
only if they have access to a 5 axis CNC router and a CAM package to carve the
plugs.

You won't be able to get it financed in the foreseeable future.

You will have to jump through unimaginable license hoops to register it
yourself as a kit car.

~~~
AriFerreira
Can't believe there are so many car guys here! This is awesome. The first
production-ready prototype will be on the ground in late summer, and will be
at SEMA in November. Production (meaning individual builds) will begin in the
Fall of 2010.

Including the community & local Southwest enthusiasts in the design & build
process was necessary for LM to know we were bringing a desirable vehicle to
market. The "opensource" aspect gained a lot of discussion early on. Now that
we have incorporated the community desires in the design & engineering, we
have a lot of proving to do. This is an exciting year.

The body will be composite, panels on tubular welded steel spaceframe. We will
use carbonfiber and thermaplastics for the panels.

Financing anything is not as easy as it use to be. Our expectations are
adjusted accordingly - we only aim to build about 3,000 in the lifetime of the
vehicle, and probably only a few hundred in the first few years.

Licensing as a kit car or custom vehicle isn't as hard as you might think -
primarily because the engine and other parts are OEM.

Thanks for the humbling, blunt review! Love it or hate it, at least the Rally
Fighter isn't like everything else on the road. The pool of sameness can
become monotonous.

------
lowkey
It's bold, audacious, visionary and will most likely fail. I love it! Now if
only they could find a way to recruit great engineers to do the heavy lifting
to actually engineer and manufacture these vehicles. Kind of reminds me of
Cambrian House - only harder because it is hardware. It might makes sense if
they sold virtual cars, but as for actually producing vehicles in any volume I
think it is far fetched.

~~~
AriFerreira
We are building a community of engineers to work alongside the community of
designers at local-motors.com. We already had one "Parts-Bin" competition to
design the Rally Fighter side vent; the community chose the winner - a
cohesive, functional and low-cost side-vent. As the community grows we will
undertake more challenges in the engineering arena.

After the LM community & team fully develop each vehicle, some building occurs
in a centralized location (like chassis welding, etc.) Then each customer
joins LM experts in the Local Micro-Factory (we will build micro-factories in
regions across the US, hence the "Local" :)) for the build experience &
training. Vehicles are built Just-In-Time by each individual customer. This
project takes two short weekends.

If you have an LM vehicle, you have a more powerful understanding of your
vehicle - because you built it.

Seems crazy to crowdsource such a large physical product. But mostly we are
crowdsourcing desire and ideas so that we can build only desirable cars. Local
Motors has to make many decisions independently in order to make it to market
in an efficient, cost-effective manner.

------
vaksel
wow 50K for such an ugly kit car? And thats only an estimate, we all know how
car companies stick to estimates, thing will probably cost 75K when everything
is said and done.

And they are using a Diesel to power it? Why? Hardly something that I would
call a car of my dreams. Also notice how high the center of gravity is. Thing
will probably tip over at the first corner on the highway.

There is a reason Tesla's first vehicle was a sports car, because thats the
one car segment where people aren't weary of spending a ton of money. And a
company can prove itself in a competitive market.

If I were going to spend a ton of money on a kit car, I'd spend $28K on an
Ultima GTR/Can-Am. Its a lot cheaper, and you get a lot more bang for your
buck. And even if you don't know how to work on cars, it'll cost you like 10K
to get it put together. So it'll still be cheaper than their estimated price

~~~
AriFerreira
It's not for everyone, that is for certain! Where are you from, vaksel? Since
you seem to have solid opinions on the type of vehicle you would like to drive
(you mentioned type of vehicle, price, and powertrain) we would love for you
to join the Local-Motors.com community and guide the vehicle choice process.
This is what it's all about!

The Rally Fighter is certainly not "all purpose" and does not satisfy my
craving for a race car either. For off-roaders who either want to get into
desert racing, or already do it, the vehicle makes sense - in some ways, maybe
more sense than anything else on the market. And the idea of building it
alongside an expert makes sense as well; if you are going to be out in the
middle of nowhere and driving hard, it's best if you know how to take care of
your vehicle yourself. Even if it just means changing a tire or building
confidence in understanding the vehicle limitations, this is a cool experience
for those who desire it. Again, not for everyone. And that's the point. The
Local Motors experience is for the crazed car enthusiast - seems everyone
knows one or two.

Electric makes great sense for some places and I'm certain that Lm will build
an EV sooner than later; but for desert racing I think clean diesel is best.
The choice of powertrain is based on geographic availability of alternative
fuel sources, as well as use of the vehicle. You can't race Baja w/ an EV.
Where would you recharge on your 2k mile trek through Ensanada? As of yet,
it's not feasible. Maybe in the future.

I think it's arguable as to whether or not Local Motors should have entered
the market w/ a Tesla-like sports car. But when you think of Tesla, Ron
Motors, Fisker and others, do you think the playing field is a bit full?
Surely there is room for others to compete at that level, but we are not at
that level. We are not going to make very many Rally Fighters, and they will
not be available all over the country. This is niche.

We certainly have some proving to do but we are ready for the challenge! The
format is viable, and so far the community is supportive of the Rally Fighter
(and there is talk of an electric Boston Bullet). Hope to hear more of your
thoughts.

Ariel

aferreira@local-motors.com

~~~
vaksel
The thing is, offroaders like power like the rest of the gearheads, so engine
choice is very important. Picking the BMW Diesel will pretty much mean that
any mods the people do will cost them an arm and a leg. + I'm sure it's
costing you a ton of money to use that particular engine.

Offroaders aren't the hippie type to care about environment or mileage, hell
most of them are running catless, so the whole clean diesel seems to be
targeting the wrong demographic.

And yes you should know how to take care of your vehicle, but thats the point,
using the BMW engine pretty much means the thing will be an electronic
nightmare, if these things are to be taken offroad, a person should be able to
take it apart and put it together on a side of a road with nothing more than a
socket wrench.

I wasn't really arguing for electric cars, I just meant that Tesla as a new
company targeted the sports car market to test the idea, because the sports
car market is the only market where people are willing to pay a premium, even
for an untested product. Offroaders do too, but the segment is infinitely
smaller.

It seems to me that the car is not built for the demographic you are
targeting.

a) Design: lower the chassis, and the car is pretty much the ideal design of
what a hybrid coupe would look like. An offroader should look mean. It
shouldn't look out of place covered in mud.

b) Engine: Expensive to modify, expensive to maintain, requires a space
shuttle manual to work on.

c) Price point I know it says 50K, but we all know that its going to be higher
once production begins. I just don't see that there'd be such a high demand
for a 50K+ dedicated offroader. Not unless the thing completely trounces its
competition.

Take a look at Bowler Wildcat/Nemesis cars, thats pretty much what you are
going to be competing with in your price range. And those things have actual
racing pedigree with tons of wins under their belt.

Anyways back to the sports car market. Yes its a saturated market, but its so
much bigger than the offroad market. There is plenty of space as long as you
build something people will want. And you have the whole build by people like
you thing going for you, which would have helped.

To me, if I were in your shoes I'd scrap the whole offroader idea and build a
sports car. Lower the thing. Throw an engine in the rear. Paint the plastic.
Its a much easier segment to compete in, compared to the offroader market.

~~~
AriFerreira
Prepare for a long response (my apologies for monopolizing this space)

All good points. Let me address each point individually:

Engine: Agree that offroaders like power; for the 3,000 – 3,200 lb offroader
we are building, the BMW 335d offers substantial power. If customers want more
power, and some will, there are plenty of tuner options available.

The BMW engine is more expensive than other options, and it may be somewhat
more challenging to take apart if you’re not use to it. But since all LM
customers will build their own vehicle alongside an expert, and will take part
in builder training – each customer will know the engine and the vehicle.

Disagree that offroaders don’t care about clean diesel. If the proposal was to
force enthusiasts to choose between performance and a “green” ride, I would
agree with you; they will choose performance. But this is not an ultimatum.

Enthusiasts want both – performance and sustainability. I say sustainability
and not “green” purposely. Yes, we are reducing particulate emissions (this is
what is usually meant by “green"); by lightweighting the vehicles and using
the most efficient powertrain for the purpose of each segment, we are indeed
“green”. But by also using an engine that is engineered for reliability (both
BMW & diesel have superior reliability and sustainability) the need to replace
parts is decreased and therefore more sustainable. There are other factors to
consider, but these are the main points.

In places like Arizona we have found that off-roaders are one of the primary
groups to take care of the land. They want to preserve the area they so enjoy.
This frame of mind opens them up to more sustainable options, like clean
diesel – as long as they don’t have to give up performance, they are happy.
And if more efficient sustainable options are not a demand of the market, but
a mere tertiary benefit – Local Motors is happy because we are lending a hand
in reducing our nations dependence on foreign oil and eventually, fossil fuels
in general.

Reduction of our reliance on foreign oil and fossil fuels is one of our
pillars, which Local Motors is founded on. If we can make significant strides
to promote a “no compromise” mentality, one that celebrates not only power but
also efficiency in such a performance-driven market, then I would say we are
proving ourselves just as well as Tesla or any of the others.

Design: The Rally Fighter is a dual ride-height design. If you want it lower,
it can be lowered. For off-roading you will want it higher so you can utilize
all 18” of wheel travel. The Rally Fighter can jump – and that’s a big part of
the fun.

Remember that the stability of the vehicle has more to do with the weight
displacement than the height of the vehicle. The engine is set low, lowering
the point of gravity to the extent possible while maintaining ground
clearance. The wide stance of the Rally Fighter also promotes stability.

You are right that an off-roader should look mean – and the posted renderings
are shiny and unmean looking (sorry!) We will muddy it up, and it will look
more at home at that point. The stance and size make it aggressive in my eyes,
but this is subjective.

Price Point: $50k is not cheap, this we know. We will build less expensive
vehicles for less expensive segments. We will also build Baja-ready Rally
Fighters which will cost more than $50k.

The Bowler Nemesis is a comparable vehicle in many senses, though we still see
a few advantages with the Rally Fighter: The nemesis weighs about 1,000lbs
more than the RF, and it costs over $130,000. Also the Nemesis runs on E85 –
and there are exactly zero E85 refueling stations in Arizona.

Building cars is not a new science and neither is building relatively
efficient cars; we see great gains in efficiency simply by lightweighting. As
a know-how kind of car guy, if you set your mind to it you could clearly build
cars. Bringing desirable cars to market in a cost effective manner through a
sustainable business model IS a new science – this is what Local Motors brings
to the table.

Still curious to know where you are located. Would love to open the
conversation to the type of sports car you desire.

~~~
vaksel
I'm pretty sure that there is almost 0 aftermarket support for the X6/335d, at
least at this point. But thats not the point, the point is that BMW
Aftermarket parts cost an arm and a leg. Take the BMW 335i for example...you
can spend close to $2,000 for a Dinan exhaust, only to get a 6hp gain. Thats
just not something thats viable for most people, especially offroaders who'd
end up denting the thing after a few outings. And chances are the cost will be
even higher, since the run would be much smaller.

Building a vehicle alongside an expert, for most people would mean standing
behind the expert's back and looking. The whole idea that someone will pick up
how to work on the car is luducrous. For one, the expert will be working on
the car using a lift, and all the necessary tools, while the customer would be
working on the floor of their garage with half the tools missing. Adding a
complicated engine to the mix, that few people are experts on, outside of the
dealership, just seems unnecessary. I mean lets face it, the engine choice is
just a gimmick.

You are forgetting the 3rd part, price. Yes, people would pick the green
engine if it produced the same performance as a regular engine.(Although I'm
not that sure about the offroader crowd), but not when they need to pay 4-5K
more for the car because of it.

The usual enthusiast equation is: "Performance, Reliability, Price, choose 2".
Gas mileage isn't really part of the equation. Yes the need to replace parts,
may be decreased due to reliability, but when you do need to replace parts,
you'll be paying an arm and a leg, because its a BMW.

Jumping may be a part of the fun, but I just don't see people jumping in a 50K
car. A dedicated off roader, you built in your garage for 10K...sure, a 50K
car? No way.

Yes lowering the point of gravity will help with stability, but I wouldn't
count on this thing to be highway safe. Which kinda makes me doubt that this
thing will end up being road legal.

The stance and size are aggressive, but the concept itself, makes it look like
one of those lifted compact car pics you see floating around on the net. + the
front end kinda says that someone spent all their effort developing the side
profile, and then threw together a quick front end. The lights for example,
look like fog lights, and not standalone headlamps.

50K is cheap depending on what segment you attack. The problem is that the
segment you are attacking is focused mainly on the 20 year old Broncos and
Wranglers. 50K for a sporty looking car is no problem, and will make it much
easier to sell the cars. For every offroader guy who wants a 50K offroader,
you'll have a thousand sports car guys who want a 50K sports car.

The thing is, that with sports cars, you can pretty much getaway with simply
building a beautiful car. Its pretty easy to make a car perform, since the
formula has been known for a while. And its much easier to make it be
reliable, compared to an offroader that gets taken for jumps. Getting a bunch
of people bitching that your car blew the shocks after 3 months is not good
for business. Doesn't matter if you don't have warranty, and that everyone
knows that if you take the car offroad, it won't last as long.

The thing is that the Nemesis has pedigree, the Bowler team has won numerous
races. The guys at top gear have creamed their pants about the Bowler. The
Rally Fighter is pretty much an unknown, with no pedigree, and questionable
looks. When you buy a Bowler, the person knows, I can now win this thing.
Unless you can arrange the Rally Fighter to enter into a rally, and win, it'll
be a problem. And even then, how many people compete in Rallies? You can't
base your business on a few hundred people.

Yes building other cars down the road is a good idea, my point is that for a
first car, you need something that'll bring attention to your brand. And the
offroader segment is just too small and too outside the mainstream to do it.
If your first car is a 50K sports car, you'll pretty much expose your brand to
the entire country. You'll be covered by all publications. If your first car
is a 50K Offroader, you'll just be covered in the 4-5 offroader mags. The
whole offroader concept may have some legs later on, when you have a line up
of other cars. But building it as a first car, is equivalent to corporate
suicide. Take the Bowler for example, great offroader, but its pretty much
unknown outside of the offroader community, and even there, most people have
no idea what it is.

The whole idea of having people work on the car is not cost efficient. You
need to do the same thing as the Catarham guys, give the option to just ship
the parts, and give the option to buy a pre-assembled car from a dealer. Thats
the only way to go mainstream.

As far as location, I'm in NJ.

As far as a sports car I desire that's not out there. Well lets see: the car
would need to be a 3 door coupe(Like the Integra/RSX/Supra/300ZX). Powertrain
would include a twin turbo engine, AWD and a 6 speed manual. All the important
settings should be adjustable from the cockpit.

Power selector: 3 stages - Daily Driver - 200hp(optimized for max mpg), Sport
- 350hp, Race - 500hp. Do this by modifying the boost controller and fuel
maps.

Drivetrain selector: Auto - Acts as RWD until it starts slipping, at which
point starts shifting power to the front wheels. Manual - give the user a way
to manually choose the setup. If I want to have 100% RWD, it should let me do
that.

Suspension selector: 3 Settings: Daily Driver, Sport, Race, that adjusts the
shock stiffness/ride height based on driver preference.

Extra features: HIDs, LSD, Traction Control(that can be 100% turned off),
Digital Gauge Cluster(fully modifiable/wi-fi capable)

Something like that would fly of the shelves at 50K. Probably at 100K even.
Just as long as the car looks good. As long as you have the looks, people will
be willing to give the car a chance.

~~~
AriFerreira
The Local Motors Micro-Factory will play 3 roles: Build, Sell, & Service. BMW
diesel engines are certainly understood in the aftermarket, but you are right
they are more complicated. Concerning that point, Local Motors will provide
service for the region surrounding the Micro-Factory - for the area where the
vehicle is sold. This is an important point, so thank you for bringing it up.

We chose a more complicated engine because it is cleaner, and delivers more
long-term value. We considered the SL1, but as we compared apples to apples,
and presented the choice to the community, the 335d was chosen.

The trophy trucks that win Baja 1000 might spend half a million dollars.
Clearly, this is not that. But for $50k you can experience Baja, the jumps,
the desert of Arizona and you can learn your car inside and out. NJ is about
as far from the desert as possible, but if you checkout offroad and baja
forums you will see what ppl are willing to invest in their rides - $50k is an
investment and it will have to be worthwhile. But in terms of the function and
performance you will gain for the dollar, the Rally Fighter is quite
competitive.

This is one of those things that can not be proven with words, but once we get
the build process rolling in the fall we will be able to share more. At that
point I hope you will help us find ways to improve the process and include
more of what will make it exciting for you (like a vehicle you actually want,
for instance!)

Thank you for sharing your very specific desires. I hope you will go to the
site (local-motors.com) and find a body for your specs. Tell 'em you want it
in Jersey!

~~~
vaksel
Here is the question you need to ask yourself...is your community going to be
buying your cars? Seems to me, like the current community is made up of
artistic types who'd rather buy a Prius(which probably explains the engine
choice). You need to go promote the thing on offroader sites to see the true
market conditions, or you'll end up building a car noone wants.

You can experience those same jumps in a lifted Bronco. And if you screw up
and roll the thing, you won't be out 50K.

Yes there are people who have 50K invested in their rigs. But that didn't
happen overnight, it happened year to year, a few grand at a time. And very
few of those high end rigs get taken offroad + when its time to sell, the
people get bent over the table, since you won't find many people willing to
spend that much money on a weekend toy.

Going to the site now, would be pretty pointless since its just pictures. No
guarantee that the thing will even be built. Knowing that it takes close to
2000 hours to assemble a kit car, I don't think we'll be seeing a finished
product for a couple of years.

~~~
jrogers
True that the site is a large proportion of design enthusiasts right now, but
since that is who normally designs cars, are we any worse off than a normal
car company.<br><br> If you were to jump a Bronco, it would be nothing like
the Rally Fighter and we have plenty of Bronco Jumpers in our team to prove
it. Short wheel base short travel, Bronco's make for a spine pounding ride
over 35miles per hour on a baja desert.<br><br> As for the site having more
than pictures, I recommend clicking the build tab. The Rally fighter will be
debuted at SEMA (Nov 09). <br><br> Many kit cars take 200 hrs to build...Lone
Star (7 days), Factory Five same, etc. You must be good to make this time, but
2000 hours is excessive (though possible for certain people on certain
builds). The whole point is that we started Local Motors to addres those scary
long build times. Come aboard and give it a little try before you declare so
unilaterally that it will never work. Are you so desperate for it to fail? We
are pretty good at listening to our faults and appreciate all of your
criticism. Hope to see you on the site. (www.local-motors.com)

~~~
vaksel
Yes design enthusiasts are the ones who design cars...but I doubt at
GM/Honda/BMW that they are the ones making the engine choice. Nothing wrong
with having a diesel option, but you are forcing your customers to pay a
premium, for something they don't need.

I mean if you are going to use a BMW engine, why not use the one from 335i? If
you look at BMWs: 335i sedan 300hp for $40K, 335d sedan 265hp for $45K.

So that's a ~$5K premium for the diesel option. I dunno about you, but pretty
much every car enthusiast I know, would rather pay $5K less, and get 35 more
hp. And lets not forget the fact that the 335i engine has a crapload of
aftermarket support, while the 335d has none.

I'm not an offroader, so I dunno about jumping etc. But thats sorta the point,
desert racers are almost non-existent, there are so very few of them out
there, and only a tiny percentage of those can afford to pay $50K for a toy.
You pretty much slashed your possible market to a few hundred rich guys who
are into offroading.

The pictures I was talking about the other designs.

I'm not saying the whole idea is a failure, I'm saying that the starting
vehicle choice is. Your motto is "Build the car of your dreams", but then you
turn around and select a vehicle that only a tiny minority would want.

~~~
jrogers
Cool, now we are talking. Couple of thoughts.

1 - we are using the 335i engine. And it is one of 3 engine systems we have
fitted for the rally fighter. So I agree.

2 - Our entire business is a revolutionary auto business model, so we are
structured to do niche production and make that our winning strategy. Each
micro-factory serves only a regional area. 2000cars max production. Kinda like
IKEA or Cabella's for cars. So call it a minority and you would be right. As
for desert racing. It is a big deal in the American Southwest, so we believe
it will be successful. The whole point is that since people like you (and me)
don't off-road race and don't really know about it, that big companies like
Honda, Chevy, and BMW will never make a car that works for this minority since
the market isn't big enough to support their massive tooling costs...voila a
market opportunity is created for a startup company. Since the Rally Fighter
is on and off road legal and seats 2 adults in front and 2 in back (or 3 car
seats), it is not my definition of a toy. But I certainly want people to think
of it as the most fun car and experience that they have ever bought.

I love your thoughts, and I so wish you were making these critiques on our
forum so our community could hear your thoughts. We are about to launch a
general forum and perhaps we can entice you to post there.

We will soon be choosing our next LM model to make with the help of our
community, and we would love to have you involved in that choice.

Thought you might want to checkout this post last night by Jeff Jarvis on his
BuzzMachine Blog. The comment stream there shows the breadth of opinion.
<http://bit.ly/9CRkv>

~~~
vaksel
1-Didn't know, the site pretty much just states the 335d's engine.

2-Are you sure it'll be road legal? Pretty sure the ride height alone would
disqualify it. And if it fails to be road legal, then its pretty much is a
weekend toy by definition.

Sure car companies aren't making cars for the market, but how much of that is
that they don't know a market exists, and how much of it is that they see that
the demand is met by dirt bikes, ATVs, Dune Buggies. Also I think car
companies do cater somewhat to this market with specific models/trims.

General blogs is something you shouldn't put too much emphasis on. I mean take
that Jeff Jarvis guy...he thinks: "its first model is a muscle car", which
obviously its not.

You need to hit up some offroader forums to get some true feedback. Moving to
Arizona couldn't hurt either. I mean if you look at it, you have a bunch of
guys in Boston, trying to build the perfect desert racer for someone in
Arizona(are there many deserts in Massachusetts?), for all you know whomever
you are consulting on what people in Arizona want is pulling your chain: "Oh
yeah, we'd LOVE a pink hybrid to offroad in, we love the environment and
mother earth".

~~~
jrogers
@vaksel Correction, I was distinguishing the 335 from the X6, we are using the
335d. As for why not the 335i, The carbon footprint is worse than the 335d
given that it is 30% less fuel efficient. We are focused on changing the
impact of vehicles and this is a good way to start. If we were going to go for
a gas system, we are prepared to offer the LS series engines. More hp by 430
vs 300. I hear you on the "Performance, Reliability, Price...choose 2" That
has been true in the past, but we do not think that applies when you compare
our product+experience to others product. LM is "Design, Performance,
Buildability, Price...choose 3 (green is a given)". Our customers want great
looking and great performance, and don't want to be keyed in the parking lot
for driving something whose mpg is measured in gpm vice mpg. If someone wants
to race and get more than the 425lb-ft from the 335d, then they have the room
to swap to an LS7 and to crank it up.

As for road legal, you are thinking of passenger car specs, this vehicle would
classify as a mixed use vehicle in which case many of the FMVSS specs to which
you are referring would not be applicable. Hope that helps.

As for buggies and dirtbikes occupying the market...I guess I am just not
going to be able to convince you and should not try. But here goes. ATVs and
Bikes are a TOTALLY different experience which require a much more fit rider
and mindset. Buggies are not anywhere near as capable as "trucks" made for
this landscape (to be precise, we are talking about 25mph max vs 70mph avg.)
Then there is the subject of Pre-running. Much of it today is done either in
sand-rail/types or in sup'd up F-150/types. Most races (i.e. Reno to Vegas)
are pre-run in a column of cars where you are simply eating dust the entire
day. So sandrails are miserable, go ask John Marking of Fox Racing. As for
sup'd up F-150 types after spending in excess of 150K you will have 10 inches
of wheel travel and a 7000lb vehicle that needs a 700+ hp engine to move it,
and it becomes a veritable space race of mass and power. The whole point is
that no company has ever seen the profit in making cars for this size market,
but LM makes cars with a much lower break-even volume allowing us to access a
much smaller niche. Even if you are right and the market is not as large as we
would want, we will have invested less than $2MM in the build program, so we
can afford to scrap it and move on to the next ...compare this to Fisker or
Tesla (other startup car co.'s) that have each raised in excess of $200MM and
only have 1 model competing in very VERY busy marget segments.

As for MA, you are at Y-Combinator and should understand this. Just because we
are starting in MA doesn't mean that we are finishing here. We are in a small
startup Ops Center. We have 2 letters of intent on properties in Phoenix and
are already working on our MA model. When we started we had no idea that the
community would like the performance off-road desert racing segment, so we
couldn't predict where would be best to go...so we dove in and got started.
Hindsight is 20-20, but I prefer to get going. After all, this is unlike any
start-up in any typical venture type market, so some of the nimble ideas do
not apply as well. We are building a car company in an intensely difficult
time and are taking risks where we feel appropriate and necessary and taking
them large. Where we do not need to take risk, we are intensely conservative.
I also hope that this helps.

Again, I am so stoked that you care enough to dig and to answer. I really
think that our community could use your insight...hope you will join
www.local-motors.com

~~~
vaksel
Well the 335i vs 335d is a difference of only 10 mpg...sure it sounds great to
say 30% more efficient, but thats something people care about in daily
drivers, not the weekend toys. And yes the LSx would be a better choice, I was
just giving the example of the 335i just because its another bmw engine.

I just don't believe that there are that many green gearheads to gamble the
stake of the company on. Not when you have people running test pipes just to
get a few extra horsepower.

Yes people want a good looking car, yes they want to have great performance,
as far as the keying thing that pretty much never happens. The only times I
heard of cars getting keyed involved a bat shit crazy ex girlfriend.

The thing is, why not offer the LSx as manufacturer installed option. In the
build stage it makes pretty much zero difference on what engine to put in.
Give the people the choice. Same goes for SEMA, you'll get much friendlier
coverage if the demo model has a real engine under the hood. If you do, the
coverage will focus on the car company. If you choose to use the 335d engine,
the coverage will focus on ridiculing the engine choice. Its just too easy of
a target.

I'll take your word about the mixed use thing, since I couldn't really find
anything about it. But I don't think its as easy as you are hoping for it to
be. I mean, its pretty much impossible to import a car from Japan or Europe
and make it road legal.

Well like I said its not really my segment, I like to stick to tarmac. And
yeah Tesla and Fisker have invested a ton more money, but lets face it, they
are doing a completely different thing since their cars are electric. And
require a much larger support system, + they've actually finished their cars.
And there is no reason to scrap the thing, something like this(although a
little meaner looking) would probably do quiet well in a place like Dubai.

How did you actually pick this thing over some of the other designs? I mean I
honestly can't see anyone picking this thing if they had other choices that
included super cars. You sure you didn't get spammed by the designer using a
bunch of proxies?

And there is nothing wrong with taking risks, it just seems like in this
situation, you are taking it for no apparent reason. I mean lets face it, with
2,000 cars, you could build a copy of Pontiac Aztec, and still sell your full
inventory over a few years. So why start out in a market with zero mainstream
appeal? Why not think long term? Instead of building a car for a tiny market,
build something for the mainstream enthusiast. Instead of targeting the few
thousand offroaders, target the millions of sports car enthusiasts.

There is plenty of space for a U.S. version of TVR. And the $45K-75K sport
coupe market is pretty bare. Plenty of opportunity to enter with an exotic
looking limited production super car that doesn't cost an arm and a leg.

Dunno about joining the site, maybe when you add the general message board,
where it'll be more of a real discussion and not just a commenting system to a
bunch of photoshops.

~~~
AriFerreira
Sorry for the delay, Vaskel! Had a bit of traveling to do these past few days.
I went from Chicago to Atlanta for my Father's wedding - what a to-do, great
fun. (TMI? :) )

In our eyes 10mpg is a huge savings. Couple that with efficiency gains by
utilizing lightweight materials, and boost that with a clean diesel with
reduced emissions; for Local Motors, this is the way to move forward. We are
not looking for a one-time solution and we will get better as time goes on.
With each step, with each vehicle we can only hope to improve with each
iteration.

Your views are well heard, and we are aware that many share your views on the
type of engine which would be easiest to use and manipulate. If we have made a
mistake and the 335d is too difficult, the Rally Fighter is fit for 2 other
engine opitons - among those is a plain ol' gasoline engine. Not our favorite
option, but we do hear you.

Laughed about the bat shit crazy ex girlfriend. Thank you for that :)

Your words, "Give the people a choice" hits home. The open development process
at local-motors.com is exactly that - a forum for participation and choice.
While we can digest what you say in this space, the votes of our community
members and dedicated participants are the votes and voices we follow. We want
your voice to be heard. If you would prefer to wait for a vehicle that is more
personal, one that you would use and have a personal vested interest in, I
understand. I don't think the desert racing segment is your cup o' tea. But
your opinion is so valuable, so consider yourself invited to take part.

RE: "zero mainstream appeal", the segment is certainly limited and the choice
is intentional. This is a segment in which we could build a product to have
very clear improvements over anything else on the market. A segment that is
already building cars, and a segment that is passionate like you wouldn't
believe. We will build cars for the tarmac, for Jersey - but we will not, not,
not build cars for the masses. Please everyone, and you will eventually please
no one. The future of exciting products and cars is niche and supported by a
hands-on experience. Again, time will tell as to whether we are "right". I
hope you will stay close so we can hash out this conversation again as we
grow, and as new niche local markets make their desires known.

I also want to note that I think all of your notes on the US auto industry and
market potential are more or less right on. There is space for not only more
cars in the segments you mentioned, there is also room for more car companies.
I agree with you.

Trust that we have done our "homework", and our business model is viable on a
local level w/ limited production for niche markets. The changes you are
suggesting we make ("build for mainstream enthusiast", "target millions")
would make us un-local motors - and that is not our goal.

This company and community is focused on creating a unique local experience
for local enthusiasts. Your suggestions & strategy may be viable, but it is
not local.

Thanks again!

Ariel Ferreira

aferreira@local-motors.com

