
Amazon finds an alternative workforce of people with disabilities - wallflower
https://www.seattletimes.com/business/amazon/amazon-finds-an-alternative-workforce-through-northwest-center-seattle-nonprofit-helping-people-with-disabilities/
======
maerF0x0
When i was younger I had a summer job of working in a paper recycling plant.
It was soul crushing boring work. I'm talking pick up a spent roll of
newsprint, saw it length wise, put the paper in the paper feed, the roll in
the cardboard feed. Good job that was ~30 seconds. Repeat for 8 hours.

We had a bunch of mentally disabled people on our team (think low IQ / down
syndrome). These guys loved their job. They felt like they were doing cool
shit all day. They cheered and smiled when the food truck would roll around
11AM and they'd spend what seemed like 1/2 their earnings on snacks and
drinks. They smiled nearly every moment of that job.

Good for them and good for the plant manager understanding this reality and
making a good for society out of a relatively bad situation (boring ass work,
people having a disability few of us could handle).

~~~
tetra_proxy
I worked at Food Lion(Southeastern US Grocery Store) as a teenager and they
hire people with mental disabilities as baggers. They loved the job and never
complained, I was a cashier and bagger and let me tell you it sucks rounding
up carts when it's over 100 degrees Fahrenheit, but those guys were just happy
to be working and around people who accepted them. And anyone who talked down
to or badly about them didn't have a job for long.

------
escapologybb
Quick question: can anybody, with a straight face explain why I as a
quadriplegic software developer, Hacker, public speaker and all round pain in
the arse earn less than everybody else? I'm asking because more than one
person in this thread seems to think it's okay.

I haven't replied to anybody specifically because I don't want to start a
flame war, but I am genuinely interested.

Slightly off topic, but I had to start my own company because finding a job
when you are quadriplegic is richly impossible. Granted, quadriplegics can
make terrible employees in that it's difficult to say you will definitely be
at a certain place at a certain time. But it just takes a little tweaking and
a little flexitime to get around the obstacle for instance.

~~~
barry-cotter
Sure. It boils down to “No one owes you shit.” and “Life isn’t fair.”

I have high anxiety, less than perfect social skills and noise processing
issues and I still spent five years teaching kindergarten. I dealt with the
noise and the stress from starting a new job and then every year discovering
exciting new things to stress out about as my responsibilities changed.

No one owes anyone a job and no one is owed a job. Very few people are going
to hire anyone unless they think that they can make money by doing so,
businesses aren’t charities. Minimum wages make hiring large numbers of people
unprofitable so those people don’t get hired. The higher the minimum wage the
greater that number will be. See France. The argument generalises to any cost,
very much including what lawyers would call “reasonable accommodations”. If
the government wants to ensure working people get paid a certain amount
there’s no reason the income tax can’t go negative, subsidising lower paid,
presumably low productivity workers, as with the US earned income tax credit.
The same logic applies to accommodations. If employing someone is unavoidably
more expensive and the government wants them employed they can either employ
them or subsidise their employment.

You’ve internalised all the costs of employing you and now as far as employers
are concerned you’re just another contractor. If the costs are borne by the
employer then they’ll attempt to avoid them. See the drop in disabled
employment following the passage of the Americans With Disabilities Act[1].

[1] Consequences of Employment Protection? The Case of the Americans with
Disabilities Act

The Americans with Disabilities Act (ADA) requires employers to ac- commodate
disabled workers and outlaws discrimination against the disabled in hiring,
firing, and pay. Although the ADA was meant to increase the employment of the
disabled, the net theoretical effects are ambiguous. For men of all working
ages and women under 40, Current Population Survey data show a sharp drop in
the employment of disabled workers after the ADA went into effect. Although
the number of disabled individuals receiving disability transfers increased at
the same time, the decline in employment of the disabled does not appear to be
explained by increasing transfers alone, leaving the ADA as a likely cause.
Consistent with this view, the effects of the ADA appear larger in medium-size
firms, possibly because small firms were exempt from the ADA. The effects are
also larger in states with more ADA-related discrimination charges.

[http://economics.mit.edu/files/17](http://economics.mit.edu/files/17)

~~~
dang
I chided another commenter for leading with that dimissive cliché "life isn't
fair", as if the OP wouldn't know that far better than either you or I do. "No
one owes anyone a job and no one is owed a job" is more of the same. Comparing
your anxiety to quadriplegia and advising the OP to be more like yourself
seems even more patronizing. I don't mean to belittle your achievement
there—it's awesome that you did that, and I'd love to hear more of the story.
But as an answer to the OP's question, it's belittling in its own right.

The rest of your comment seems to include relevant details to the OP's
question. I haven't read them closely enough to understand them, but from a
moderation point of view your comment would been much better if you had stuck
to that sort of answer.

------
atdrummond
Not mentioned - that they can pay far less for these workers by dint of the
much lower minimum wage for disabled persons.

The NW Center has been cited in the past for such underpayment.
[https://patch.com/washington/seattle/nonprofit-underpaid-
dis...](https://patch.com/washington/seattle/nonprofit-underpaid-disabled-
workers-seattle-labor-office)

~~~
goda90
I was going to say. It's good to provide opportunities and accomodations for
disabled people, but to expect this to be altruistic on the part of Amazon is
naive. They've done the math and think the accommodations won't counteract the
gains from being able to pay less, and get some PR.

~~~
tracer4201
How did you make the jump to concluding that Amazon is doing this because of
some greedy or nefarious purpose? Is it possible there could be management
anywhere at Amazon who cares about this segment of the workforce?

I guess - without any further information, why spread this negativity?

I don’t understand the agenda here. My personal experience with shopping
Amazon and AWS has been generally really good. Even if you’re has not been
good, how do you extrapolate to Amazon people all being part of some evil
conspiracy?

~~~
goda90
I wouldn't call it nefarious, but corporations operate on greed. As another
comment points out, it's probably a good thing that society can get this greed
targeted towards improving the situation for people who might otherwise be
marginalized. I'd say my agenda would be to encourage a healthy skepticism of
every good thing you hear about a corporation. Amazon has had bad press
regarding how they treat warehouse workers. If we're too busy praising them
for this, are we missing out on places where the greed leads to bad things?

------
drewda
A recent point of comparison: Walmart quietly eliminating the "greeter"
position, which is often filled by people with physical or developmental
disabilities:

[https://www.npr.org/2019/02/25/696718872/walmart-is-
eliminat...](https://www.npr.org/2019/02/25/696718872/walmart-is-eliminating-
greeters-workers-with-disabilities-feel-targeted)

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19251858](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19251858)

~~~
zzleeper
Tbh greeters seemed almost like a waste, as they were not directly creating
any output.

~~~
seretogis
Imagined or not, there is/was a notion that greeting people helps for loss-
prevention purposes. (i.e. if you say hello and make eye contact with someone
as they enter your establishment, they are less inclined to steal from you.)

If Walmart is removing those positions, they may have found it to be a
misconception. [edit: it seems like Walmart is not removing greeters, just
making it harder for disabled/elderly people to hold those positions and
expanding their responsibilities.]

~~~
benatkin
They're also calling them hosts, which is annoying, because they aren't
anything like a host at a restaurant, because going shopping in a giant big
box retailer isn't anything like dining at a sit-down restaurant. I can see
why they would use an overblown title, because they call their employees
_associates_ to say that they consider them partners, when in reality there
are over a million employees and there's no way they could all be partners.

~~~
crooked-v
They seem to be changing the positions from being generally at the door to
instead being staff generally designated for welcoming but also helping people
with requests, in which case 'host' makes sense as a distinction from other
staff intended to focus on stocking, cleaning, checkout, etc.

------
avgDev
I have chronic pain fortunately I manage and can work full time as SE.
However, I know others who could not transition from physical field into
something else.

Most people with disability genuinely want to work, but they usually get fired
due to missing days or jobs that lack flexibility and cannot accommodate
doctor visits for example.

Many are just as good if not better than healthy employees. I thought about
creating some kind of non-profit to help connect disabled employees and
employers(have not researched the market, not sure if that already exists). I
think if people had clearly defined limits employers would be more likely to
hire them. In western nations, with disability often comes feeling of not
being worthy, as worth is often attached to work. Ability to work remote and
flexible hours could really put many people back to work.

~~~
MuffinFlavored
What does SE stand for? Software engineer?

What kind of chronic pain do you have and why do you have it? How common is
this?

~~~
avgDev
Yes, software engineer.

I have widespread tendon pain caused by a severe reaction to a popular
antibiotic. I generally am pretty normal just get pain. Some medical
professional label my symptoms as "fibromyalgia", however, this has been
causing a lot of problems to finding the actual cause.

Here is a link if you are interested on the subject:
[https://www.ema.europa.eu/en/medicines/human/referrals/quino...](https://www.ema.europa.eu/en/medicines/human/referrals/quinolone-
fluoroquinolone-containing-medicinal-products)

Currently, most doctors in the US are not aware of the issue and nobody wants
to speak up. It has been an odd experience for me.

~~~
atdrummond
A fluoroquinolone by chance?

~~~
avgDev
Yes, I am really surprised you were able to make that guess.

~~~
Obi_Juan_Kenobi
The first google hit for "antibiotic nerve damage" is
[https://www.webmd.com/brain/news/20130826/fda-strengthens-
fl...](https://www.webmd.com/brain/news/20130826/fda-strengthens-
fluoroquinolone-warning)

It is perhaps under-recognized, but it's not obscure.

Looks like IVIG is the most promising treatment currently:
[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5833158/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5833158/)

~~~
avgDev
Very interesting I have not heard of IVIG previously! I will bring this up
with an MD.

The biggest issues are doctors just very skeptical and often refuse to even
look at studies. I have to walk a fine line between being educated and
appearing like I'm self diagnosing.

~~~
cm2012
A good trick is to tell doctors your in-law (or something) is a doctor and
recommended asking your regular doctor about treatment X. They're more likely
than not to start considering that option seriously.

------
titanomachy
"We have a really big problem with attrition and retention and absenteeism in
our sortation centers"

Is this perhaps a sign that you have terrible work conditions? Or perhaps you
aren't paying enough?

Seems more likely than "the people we hire are usually terrible workers".

------
danite
Very skeptical that this is due to Amazon's generosity and not just because
they can tap into an underpaid and underemployed workforce. They don't seem to
be giving these people access to the jobs that actually make money at Amazon.
I'm very wary of feel good stories about employing people with disabilities in
low paying jobs with lots of repetitive manual labor. Often it's a way to get
cheaper and more easily exploited labor that you can get your PR team to spin
as charity.

~~~
ummonk
That's good though isn't it? The more employers start seeking competitive
advantage in hiring disabled people, the narrower the pay and employment gap
will become.

~~~
danite
It's more likely that they use it to depress the wages of abled workers. This
sort of unskilled labor isn't exactly scarce enough to cause meaningful
competitive pressure like you describe.

~~~
dmix
This worldview almost always ends up creating no jobs rather than any jobs for
a greater amount of people. Always in the name of ‘good intentions’.

Having a job and financial independence vs nothing at all is the real world
reality for the vast majority of these people.

Just because Amazon makes these jobs available is _not_ taking other well
paying jobs away from them. That’s not how this works.

Wether or not there should be more high paying jobs to capable disabled people
is a different question.

~~~
danite
The US is the wealthiest country in the history of the world. If we want to
make providing disabled people with fulfilling jobs that pay a good wage a
priority, we are entirely capable of accomplishing that.

~~~
dmix
This statement is so full of naivety. The type of stuff I might have thought
when I was 16 and didn't know how a country becomes (and stays) wealthy in the
first place.

------
908087
If they hire people who have colostomy bags they won't even have to worry
about micromanaging their bathroom use.

------
mkmk
Amazon's PR team really gave this story the green light? Seems a bit shameless
trot out the fact that you hire disabled people as a feel-good story. What's
next, a story about how Amazon is saving puppies?

~~~
sodosopa
What has your company done to enable workers with a disability?

~~~
petermcneeley
Any company that allows for remote work likely enables a whole class of
workers with various disabilities.

~~~
tetra_proxy
You'd be surprised, in my experience, most jobs aren't flexible on schedule or
understanding when you have regular doctors appointments. Chronic medical
conditions and disabilities can require many regular appointments. I have 2-3
appointments a month and that doesn't include any physical therapy I might
have. My Dad has multiple appointments per week usually. Luckily I found a job
that let's me work my schedule around my appointments.

~~~
dmix
Really? You’ve had jobs where going to the doctor a few times a month is a
deal breaker for the company?

This type of thing could easily be negotiated early on in all the startups
I’ve worked for. Even non dev employees.

Even worse for a remote job?

~~~
Broken_Hippo
You have been lucky and have had few low-paying jobs. Most jobs I've worked in
the US are like this - you are fully expected to be there 100% of the time the
company thinks you should be. All else should be done on your own time around
the company time. This is even more true for low-paying jobs.

It sucks for anyone with health problems and sucks for anyone with children.
People lose jobs because their children are sick and because they wind up with
a major medical thing that happens. FMLA only covers large medical stuff - if
you've worked full time for a year for a large enough company.

Some of this could be fixed with laws that protect employees and things like
that. I'm generally thankful I don't have to deal with the lack of worker
protection in the US right now - it meant that breaking my elbow while working
a seasonal job didn't mean I was out of an income, for example.

