
Apple’s 2018 MacBook Pros Attempt to Solve Flexgate, Without Admitting It Exists - barryvan
https://ifixit.org/blog/13979/apples-2018-macbook-pros-attempt-to-solve-flexgate-without-admitting-it-exists/
======
CoolGuySteve
A bigger problem imo is the $700 display replacement. I have a similar problem
with my wife’s broken MacBook, where replacing the display costs almost as
much as the computer itself.

The problem with the MacBook is that the display is bonded to the glass and
the aluminum back so that you have to replace the entire top assembly to fix
the display.

It’s even more depressing to know that the ribbon connecting the display is
also soldered on.

Apple (and Ives in particular) talks a lot about recycling, sustainability,
and product lifecycle, but that seems like complete bullshit once you actually
open up or try to repair one of their products.

~~~
devwastaken
Yep, Louis rossman, a popular apple repair guy on YouTube talks similiar about
this a lot. The overwhelming majority of problems are fixable for 10 minutes
or less and less than a dollar in components. But apple will just tell you to
buy a new board and purposefully makes it harder for repair. The whole
'sustainability' is a marketing act.

~~~
netsharc
There was a hyped report where they said they recovered over 2204 lbs of gold
from their hardware, this number quoted in every news story:
[https://www.geek.com/apple/apples-recycling-program-
recovere...](https://www.geek.com/apple/apples-recycling-program-
recovered-2204lbs-of-gold-last-year-worth-40-million-1652481/)

2204 lbs is 1000kg converted to lbs, rounded down. If that's not a marketing
number I don't know what is

~~~
sebazzz
They probably recovered less if there was less hardware to replace. You can't
recover much gold from only a ribbon cable versus an entire display assembly.

------
stunt
There are many examples of Apple never admitting design issues!

Beside what they are doing with their reputation and customers loyalty, I’m
wondering how is it going to affect their engineering culture within the
company itself.

They are very biased with their strategies in everything and they hardly
change them. Same situation Microsoft was in some years ago.

~~~
vardump
I don't know about others, but I don't dare to buy Apple products anymore. My
2012 MacBook Pro is still going strong, but newer MacBooks don't have anywhere
near the same build quality and durability.

When you have an issue, and complain about it or even ask advice what to do,
I've often encountered toxic behavior from Apple fans. Denying the problem's
existence and such.

The problem is of course what to heck to buy. MacBooks do have nice features,
like fast wakeup and an excellent touchpad, that I still haven't seen matched
in the "Windows" laptop camp.

~~~
isoskeles
I got a Dell XPS 13 last year and the touchpad is great. I use it both on
Windows and Ubuntu.

I also remember having a Toshiba something-or-other 10 years ago and hating
the touchpad in comparison to a Mac. So, just saying, I've seen how bad it can
be. The XPS has given me no issues aside from having to make sure I change the
click behavior (tap to click really annoys me).

~~~
oneeyedpigeon
Does tap-to-click really get in the way if you turn it on but don't want to
use it? Are you 'tapping' as your finger comes down onto the trackpad to move?
That action should be detected and ignored, IMO. I'm only saying this as a
tap-to-click user. I can't stand using someone's keyboard if they've turned it
off — there I am, tapping away, looking like an idiot ...

~~~
amanaplanacanal
I find that I graze the touchpad with my thumb or palm while I'm typing. I
always turn it off on my laptops.

~~~
tkxxx7
This is another reason I don't want to leave Apple - they are far and away the
best at detecting mis-taps.

------
skilled
I have owned 3 Macbooks so far. And all 3 have had one of the speakers break.
Am I just that unlucky?

Oh and yeah, what a diarrhea of a keyboard in the 2016 edition.

~~~
potta_coffee
I hate hate hate the newer Mac keyboard. Diarrhea is absolutely the perfect
word to describe my feelings toward it.

~~~
eridius
I love the newer Mac keyboard. It is hands-down the best laptop keyboard I've
ever used. Literally my only complaint is the design of the arrow keys.

~~~
VBprogrammer
I'm not an Apple fan boy by any stretch but years ago I discovered that the
Apple 104 key keyboard suited me down to the ground. Despite using it mostly
on Ubuntu and Windows. I've put up with strange key mappings just to use that
keyboard.

The MacBook Pro I've just gotten at work is a nightmare. I assumed this was
just getting used to it until this weekend when I finally setup my desktop at
home with the old 104 key keyboard. The difference is night and day.

~~~
eridius
For what it's worth, I hate laptop keyboards in general. The MBP keyboard
being the best laptop keyboard I've ever used is, quite frankly, an extremely
low bar.

~~~
potta_coffee
My older generation MBP keyboard (2015?) Is really good, best laptop keyboard
I've touched. The newer one is just painful. I don't even know what I don't
like about it, it just feels terrible, maybe because of how short the travel
is. The key bottoms out immediately and it feels like I'm just tapping my
fingers on a solid surface.

------
l1feh4ck
The one thing that caught my attention is that "they keep deleting the issue
we post". That is an evil thing to do.

~~~
eridius
Question: do they delete any other posts, or just ones alleging design flaws?
Do they give any reason for deletion?

~~~
oneeyedpigeon
Accidental Tech Podcast dealt with this recently: Apple's support and bug
tracking is really low-standard, by all accounts. Apparently, they frequently
mass-close bugs (e.g. after a new release) with a comment to the effect of "if
this is still a bug, please reopen it". You can understand the circumstances
that might've led them to do this ... but it doesn't sound great.

~~~
eridius
As someone who files an extremely high volume of Apple bug reports, that's not
actually true. They _occasionally_ close a bug with "please try again and let
us know if it's still happening", but that's extremely rare. And to be fair,
the last time I saw that happen, the bug in question had actually been fixed
at some point in the past. I'm pretty sure in that instance some engineer said
"hey wait, that sounds familiar, I think we fixed that already, but I can't
find the original bug report".

------
artiscode
Nice knowing that, in addition of three failing keys (u, i and o) and one
failed speaker, I can also expect the display flex cable to fail. 2017 MBP
that's been plagued with problems from the very beginning.

~~~
synaesthesisx
Ugh - I have one that also has a left failed speaker, which had previously
crackled before giving out. A quick search on Reddit will find similar
reports. Apple refuses to acknowledge the issue entirely.

------
libertine
The weirdest part of all of this is the recurrent problems of Apple products
in peoples tech-life-time, and the same people, while annoyed, embrace it...
and I just don't get it.

If products fail on you consistently, why you keep buying them?

It's 2019, there's a lot of great products out there, with way more quality
than some Apple products.

If the problem is the "ecosystem" you bought into, well maybe it was a mistake
to begin with because it seems it's not much of a balanced ecosystem - so
maybe you should consider jumping out of it.

I know I'm biased because I've been a windows user all my life, and I'm not
from USA where Apple reigns supreme and people communicate with each other via
Apple products/apps... but damn, is it really worth it? Because you're being
part of the problem, not part of the solution.

~~~
Traster
Let's be clear about this: we have no idea how often this issue is occuring.
From what we're seeing it could be 0.0001% of Apple Laptops failing within 3
years. This just tends to get a lot of attention. If you buy an Acer laptop
it'll probably be 10x more likely to break in 3 years, but no one cares
because the Acer brand is crap.

This isn't surprising, the likelihood of breakdown is just 1 aspect of
choosing to buy a laptop.

There might be 'great' products out there, but my experience is that Windows
is a total turd and so even if you could find hardware as good as Apple's your
still torturing yourself everyday. There's loads of reasons to make the choice
and a tiny % chance of your laptop breaking isn't going to completely convince
people not to buy.

~~~
libertine
Well in the past years some of Apple products have had serious issues - like
engineering flaws that made their products prone to issues.

So it's not just this issue.

About Acer, you'll have to back it up with something, because you know, Acer
has laptops that range from 300€ to 1500€+.

But you're right, just because it's Apple these problems have a different
reach in media, but on the other hand, Apple doesn't own their problems. And
to top it off their practices when it comes to support some of the issues is
just ridiculous.

To say windows is a total turd makes you look like you're just trying to hurt
it's feelings, because you know, and I know, and everyone knows Windows serves
it's purpose for plenty of people. Just like Android does.

If only the problems were in Apple laptops... the problems is in other product
lines, and in the way Apple designs their products. Decisions like pinning
down a laptop keyboard with rivets, poor choice of materials, poor thermals,
the list goes on.

But hey, rejoice on it.

------
vietvu
A classic Apple move. Then a year later, they will offer to "fix" the affected
model with "reasonable price", and people still have no choice but to go along
with it.

~~~
scottydelta
just like their generous $30 battery replacements on iPhones after they were
caught slowing down the iphones.

~~~
saagarjha
> they were caught slowing down the iphones

This is a mischaracterization of the issue. They communicated battery
throttling poorly; they weren't "caught slowing down" iPhones.

~~~
scottydelta
They never acknowledged the issue even though the issue has been there for
quite sometime[1].

[1] [https://www.collective-evolution.com/2017/09/03/study-
sugges...](https://www.collective-evolution.com/2017/09/03/study-suggests-
that-apple-deliberately-sabotages-old-products-iphone-slow-peaks-after-every-
new-release/)

~~~
hvidgaard
In all honesty, a battery is a wear and tear item. At some point it simply
cannot provide enough power - it has been this way ever since rechargeable
batteries was invented.

What Apple did was the only thing they could do to keep the phone working
reasonably, but they should have communicated it clearly, and offered battery
replacement for a reasonable price (30$ for iPhone 6 battery replacement was
cheap).

Other manufactures have this issue too, and some phones like the Nexus 6p was
extreme. In the old days the battery was user replaceable, and it was well
known that you'd have to buy a new one at some point.

~~~
fzzzy
No. I don't buy this. The correct action would have been to overprovision the
battery such that it is capable of advertised performance for the expected
lifetime of the product instead of making the product 1 mm thinner.

~~~
hvidgaard
Weight is important for a handheld device. 1mm thicker would add a significant
chunk of weight.

The issue wasn't as much capacity, as it was peak power draw. While somewhat
related to capacity, 10-20% larger battery would not have made much of a
difference. They could have crippled the performance and lowering the peak
power draw, but that was what they did when it was necessary.

------
tmd83
I also never see much talk about the sharp edges of Macbook. It was a struggle
for me when I got mine. But just yesterday I checked the 2018 model of a
colleague. And the sharpness was even worse. More importantly the vents on the
side and on the around the hinge were really bad. My skin was scrapped
painfully if my hand dragged across it. I don't know how one can use this
safely without scratching one's skin :(. I like a lot about the Macbook itself
while I also hate some of their choices. But this package they put everything
is in sharp, slippery, zero grip is simply beyond absurd for me. That's not
even talking about the repairability or making it so thin than it's harder to
grip.

They have solved a lot of the tough problem of quality manufacturing and set a
price for themselves to allow it profitability. That's the big thing. The
problems Macbook has I feel are not about lack of engineering skill. It's
completely about designer ego and fleecing the customers.

------
forgingahead
I regret not buying a stash of 2012 Macbook Pros and hoarding them for my own
use.

 __Edit: And iPhone SEs as well

~~~
SyneRyder
Careful on the mid-2012 MBPs... as much as I love that machine, they also have
their own flexgate [1]. The internal SATA flex cables bend across the
Superdrive and rub against the slightly abrasive back plate, so they have a
high failure rate if you actually use your device as a laptop (eg travel with
it, keep it in an backpack). Apple seems to have had a problem with flex
cables for nearly a decade now.

My MBP 2012 has had 6 SATA flex cable replacements by Apple in 3.5 years (I
bought mine in 2015). The last few repairs have all been ~3 months apart. It's
easily the most unreliable laptop I've ever owned. Thankfully Apple did all
the SATA cable replacements free as required by law in Australia.

That said, you should be able to find mid-2012s for about $450 - $650 US
refurbished from mom & pop Mac repair stores. [2]

[1] [https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/sata-cable-problem-
in-m...](https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/sata-cable-problem-in-macbook-
pros.1616970/)

[2] [https://www.macofalltrades.com/apple-macbook-pro-13-inch-
glo...](https://www.macofalltrades.com/apple-macbook-pro-13-inch-
glossy-2-5ghz-core-i5-mid-2012-md101ll-a/)

~~~
adjkant
Okay real talk do people just not take care of their machines or have my
friends and I been insanely lucky?

I use my computer daily and travel with it in a backpack all the time and have
never once had anything on 5 Mac's I have owned (3 different work computers, 2
personal) break up until this year with the keyboard on the 2016/2017 MBP
which in indeed a mess/huge fuckup. I still own both my personal Mac's and
besides being pretty slow the 2012 can still run great in a pinch.

Many of my friends also own Mac's and not one has had issues with flex cables,
screens, speakers, ports, you name it, until the butterfly keyboard issues. I
can't help but wonder if it's a matter of treatment and defining what
"regular" use is.

~~~
SyneRyder
I mostly agree - I have a Pismo G3, 2006 Black MacBook & 2007 Black MacBook
that are still in working order. The 2006 had one minor repair but has been
fine ever since. I've been that guy who evangelized Mac reliability &
AppleCare service to others.

I've been scratching my head trying to work out what I might be doing
differently with my 2012 that others don't. The only thing I can think of
(besides the backpack) is that I still make use of the internal DVD drive, and
that I still have a spinning disk rather than an SSD (I need storage more than
I need I/O speed). Perhaps the vibration from those devices causes some of the
abrasion on the flex cables.

------
lbill
Bad news: Apple takes us for fools, again. this sucks.

Good news: many businesses and influencers (iFixit, Louis Rossman, Linus Tech
Tips ...) are talking about it. This is bad press for Apple. The more noise we
make about these issues, the better the chances are that Apple improves on its
flaws.

I'm not overly optimistic about it: spreading the word about Apple's bad
habits might be useless. But trying and failing is in my opinion better than
not trying at all : at best, Apple makes better product ; At worst, they just
keep on doing what they're doing.

------
Ultramanoid
Still waiting for Apple to make anything anywhere as good as the Pismo was.
I've had hardware issues of one kind or another with every single laptop from
them since then.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PowerBook_G3#PowerBook_(FireWi...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PowerBook_G3#PowerBook_\(FireWire,_Pismo\))

~~~
jakobegger
One problem with the Pismo (and probably other laptops at the time) was that
the backlight would become very dim.

You could buy replacement backlights, but installing them was really
difficult. Even if you managed to not break the very thin glass tube, aligning
it in a way not to cast any shadows was tricky.

I think that the newer, LED-backlit displays actually have a much longer
lifetime (apart from "Flexgate").

~~~
Ultramanoid
Anecdotal experience, but never had any issues with the Pismo, which I used
well past the mid-2000s. I did have screen problems with the first titanium
PowerBook G4, flickering, glitching, and then after a few months the thing
just died and had to be replaced. That was after the hard disk failed as well
in the first month of use. And it's been one thing or another ever since then.
Being an Apple customer of several decades, I sincerely do not understand this
myth of fantastic quality they have. I have had IBM and Lenovo fail much less,
and HP... Actually never.

Edit ： Just checked dates, and yes, I used the Pismo for 8 years. The
PowerBook G4 barely 3 years and couldn't get rid of it fast enough.

------
WA
The display in my MacBook Pro 2017 just died recently. It was flickering for a
week and then went all black (almost), except for a small line of pixels.

Together with the double-insert problem when hitting the space key, it’s
really total garbage.

------
nisuni
Environmental certifications should include repairability.

------
gumby
The 2018 keyboard is much more robust than the earilier ones. In 8 months I
haven’t had to replace it at all (though I am close). I actually don’t mind
the feel, just want it to work.

And the Touch Bar...if I could just disable the hypersensitive virtual escape
key (I use caps lock for that) it would be perfect...all else can be disabled
but not that botch, for some reason.

I guess I still use it because I find the alternatives even worse. Could be
Apple Stockholm syndrome.

~~~
davidverhasselt
You can easily disable the escape key on the TouchBar using the free
Karabiner-Elements
[https://pqrs.org/osx/karabiner/](https://pqrs.org/osx/karabiner/)

This is my setup: [https://d.pr/i/sP4OMX](https://d.pr/i/sP4OMX)

~~~
gumby
Hmm, that still doesn't disable the Touch Bar escape on my 2018 MBP. Any
advice?

------
fooker
Is there any signal that they are going to introduce a better keyboard?

I just can't grow to like the current ones.

~~~
majewsky
They got a patent for putting key switches under a touchscreen, so my guess is
that it's just going to get worse.

~~~
fooker
Oh wow, that's messed up.

------
baybal2
That's the company that removed strain relievers from all their cabling with
the very intention of making them break easier.

What did you people expect?

~~~
Bud
Looking around my desk, I see a MagSafe power supply, with strain relief on
both ends, a Thunderbolt cable, with strain relief, an HDMI adapter, with
strain relief, a Lightning cable, with strain relief...what are you even
talking about?

~~~
eecc
What strain relief, the crappy flex neck that stiffens over time becoming
itself a strain point making the cables fray on their discontinuity? (Note how
normally strain releifs are graduated... but let’s not get function to prevail
of form!)

I haven’t had an Apple laptop without the darn thing breaking after a couple
years... it’s a tax, as well as guaranteed landfill material.

Just google “apple power supply cable fray”

~~~
saagarjha
And I haven't had a power supply break yet. I still do not understand how
people manage to ruin these things, unless they're yanking them from the cord
itself or twisting it around. It seems like they stay together if you put just
a bit of care into keeping them intact?

~~~
kilburn
I'm guessing you don't use your laptop in your lap. It is impossible to avoid
some strain on the cable while the computer is on your lap, because it must
hang unsupported.

Use it this way for a while and I guarantee that no matter how much you care,
the plastic will splinter exposing the inner cables and eventually shorting
them.

~~~
saagarjha
I _do_ use my computer in my lap; the strain is minimal and has no real effect
on durability. That's like a couple of ounces of weight–there's no no way that
will permanently damage the cable.

~~~
kilburn
There should be no way, but as plenty of people can attest to... it happens.
Really, why would so many people be complaining if it wasn't true?

I'm still using my late 2011 machine as a daily driver, day in and day out. I
think you can agree I don't generally mistreat my stuff (or the thing would be
destroyed already). I'm telling you I've been careful with the charger cables,
and still got 3 of them to fry this way.

You may or may not believe me, but at least you should understand that my
opinion (and many others') is that those cable strains are unfit for their
purpose.

------
snazzycalynx
Last years there are many fuckups with pro models.

------
mnm1
Interesting. This stage light effect also affects my 2007 mbpro which is two
generous old. It did take about seven years to develop, but it seems that it's
been an issue possibly on past models also that has just gotten worse with the
latest thin design.

------
papagoat
I paid for AppleCare and Apple fixed my keyboard twice and replaced my display
for free. No questions asked.

The counter-argument is that such an expensive machine should not fail.

Hardware suffers from wear-and-tear. My upfront investment for AppleCare more
than paid for itself.

------
andy_ppp
Eventually Apple will make a disposable $3000 Mac and everyone will love it
...

~~~
LeoPanthera
Tired of this kind of lazy trolling on every article even vaguely critical
about Apple.

------
_Codemonkeyism
Cook is a supply chain guy.

