
The greatest privilege we never talk about: beauty - ipeefreely
https://medium.com/@sfard/the-greatest-privilege-we-hardly-talk-about-beauty-7db3f70c1116
======
Nokinside
Being ugly, middle aged woman is like invisibility cloak in certain work
environments.

In one of my first jobs I worked with female electrical engineer like that. It
took me few years to gradually discover how good she was. She had good ideas
and solved problems but we somehow forgot where the idea came after we talked
it over. It somehow became team effort. After someone was boasting how they
had high scores in Mensa test, she just casually mentioned that she had scored
155.

I later started a company with her. The best decision I have ever made.
Imagine working with Elon Musk who is enthusiastic about chess, crocheting and
mushroom picking.

~~~
silveroriole
Wow, grim. As someone who’s on their way to being an ugly middle aged female
engineer this is tough reading. Did you ever tell her you spent years
completely discounting her and ‘stealing’ her ideas? I wonder what she thinks
about that.

~~~
umvi
> Did you ever tell her you spent years completely discounting her and
> ‘stealing’ her ideas

I don't think the "discounting"/"stealing" was intentional... and it's not
necessarily exclusive to women. "Selling yourself" is a skill that even men
struggle with, especially the quiet, introverted, but definitely intellectual
types.

~~~
silveroriole
Selling yourself can be hard, but I have to say in my time of browsing HN I’ve
never seen a male engineer complain about being completely ignored in their
job in the way the commenter describes. Overlooked in interviews due to
ageism, yes, but once they get in I don’t have the impression it would take a
middle-aged man with an IQ of 155 YEARS to get out of ‘invisibility mode’ (and
would his attractiveness come into it at all? Probably not, if most of his
coworkers are also male). If anyone wants to share their experience here to
prove I’m wrong, please do!

~~~
derefr
> I have to say in my time of browsing HN I’ve never seen a male engineer
> complain about being completely ignored in their job in the way the
> commenter describes

To be frank, that's because in most environments a male engineer would be told
it's their own fault for not trying harder to get recognized / pushing their
"personal brand" more (i.e. they'd be social punished for pointing out this
problem, rather than getting social justice.)

Men internalize this early in life, and so don't bother to complain about such
things no matter how often it happens to them.

------
JeremyNT
I'm a male of above average height who (by western standards) would probably
rate as fairly attractive thanks to some lucky genetics. Those inherent
characteristics are only part of the picture, though; at various times in my
life I have varied in attractiveness greatly (i.e. deciding to work out,
maintain a proper weight, and generally paying attention to my appearance), so
I have experienced both sides of this effect (I imagine many attractive people
have had similar experiences; remaining "attractive" is non-trivial).

People do, clearly, have a bias towards whatever their standard of
attractiveness is. I don't think this is really a controversial observation;
it's subtle in some situations, overt in others, but it almost never
disappears.

This is also enhanced by another effect the article doesn't really hit on:
confidence. Once you realize people _perceive_ you as attractive, you start to
understand how this advantage tilts the world in your favor. You realize
people may listen a bit more, so you speak up a bit more. You start putting
yourself out there and more and more opportunities fall into your lap.

This is, as I hinted above, something that people can make a conscious effort
to achieve. I've got certain genetic advantages, and I acknowledge that, but
it's _amazing_ how far simple physical fitness, careful grooming, and
confidence can go.

For men who perceive themselves as unattractive, I would strongly recommend
that you put forth the effort to become attractive, even if your own self-
image is that you are unattractive. Your genetic predisposition may set limits
and boundaries on how far you can take this effect, but if you even move the
needle a little bit you can start to see gains (I'd not presume to make any
such recommendation to women, because although I feel confident that
attractiveness has _never_ hurt me as a male, I do not know whether
attractiveness is such a "clear win" for women).

It's unfortunate that humans are wired this way, but you might as well take
advantage of it.

~~~
Sohcahtoa82
> For men who perceive themselves as unattractive, I would strongly recommend
> that you put forth the effort to become attractive, even if your own self-
> image is that you are unattractive.

In dating, I've always heard two rules:

1\. Be attractive 2\. Don't be unattractive

What's attractive is very subjective. But what's _un_ attractive is almost
universal. Take a shower, wear antiperspirant, groom your hair, and make an
effort to be in good physical shape. Men, if you're growing a beard, groom it.
If not, shave it regularly. I look back at pictures of my early 20s when I
shaved like once a month out of laziness, and damn I looked terrible.
#BlunderYears

I've seen first-hand people that believe they've failed at #1, so they ignore
#2.

------
hellofunk
I am probably the most beautiful person I know. I am in every way an
embodiment of physical perfection. I stand in the mirror and sometimes can’t
help but notice just how remarkable my reflection is. Despite all of this,
I’ve had a long, and very difficult life. So many of the ugly people around me
are faring far better. So I’m not so sure.

~~~
BoiledCabbage
Brilliant comment.

And the fact that most of the responses to you are confused by it shows how
ludicrous it is. And yet when someone uses that exact same reasoning in a
different context people are somehow unable to see its absurdity and
vehemently agree with it.

~~~
PaulKeeble
Individual anecdotes are also informative but the scientific data is pretty
clear, women who are more attractive and men than are taller (and more
handsom) do better in business and wealth. We have strong biases towards them.
It doesn't mean all attractive and tall people do well, just there is a clear
trend across society that they are promoted more.

------
3pt14159
> In a meta analysis of the role of attractiveness in criminal sentencing, it
> was found that unattractive people received 120–305 percent longer sentences
> than attractive people.

I wonder if this is an evolved phenomenon. Societies where punishment was
harsher on the less attractive was faster to remove less fit genes than
otherwise and, thus, out competed their adversaries.

(Obviously abhorrent on a human level, though.)

~~~
DoreenMichele
Beauty isn't as simple as being born looking a certain way. It can be
influenced by health. It can be influenced by social savvy. It can be
influenced by socioeconomic class.

To think that it merely reflects your genes vastly oversimplifies it.

(I was once "beautiful." I have a genetic disorder. This is a subject I have
thought a lot about over the years.)

~~~
poiuytrewqa
Actually not really, I mean if you're ugly and rich you're just ugly with
money. You may get benefits just because you've money. But if you don't show
off then there's no way to influence your "perception of beauty"

Beauty has more to do with culture (what do we consider good looking and what
not) but there's also an objective beauty that has to do with body proportion
for example

[https://www.nature.com/articles/526S16a.pdf](https://www.nature.com/articles/526S16a.pdf)

~~~
molmalo
As an example, check pictures before and after being millionaire of some rock
stars, actors, sportsmen, etc and you will see how money can really change the
looks.

Take this picture before after of Cristiano Ronaldo, for example:

[https://elbocon.pe/resizer/0hZVESd2S5BEAOwYYdT6_FUcIEE=/980x...](https://elbocon.pe/resizer/0hZVESd2S5BEAOwYYdT6_FUcIEE=/980x528/smart/arc-
anglerfish-arc2-prod-
elcomercio.s3.amazonaws.com/public/AWWTL3OO7NFMLKFD62VKAXEKAY.jpg)

~~~
zzzddds
This is laughable. Using a picture as argument to say "you can be handsome
with money" is pretty much pointless

[https://www.besoccer.com/new/the-20-ugliest-footballers-
in-t...](https://www.besoccer.com/new/the-20-ugliest-footballers-in-the-
world-10240)

[https://www.goal.com/en-us/news/has-cristiano-ronaldo-had-
pl...](https://www.goal.com/en-us/news/has-cristiano-ronaldo-had-plastic-
surgery/1gnvery8a5m8c14b9rn9b3z090)

[https://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/entertainment/sydney-
confi...](https://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/entertainment/sydney-
confidential/image-
gallery/f04d03d33e448963c703a39d8a346cdb?sv=3868ed79c03f71b9fddb3904f0625065)

[https://www.imdb.com/list/ls054789830/](https://www.imdb.com/list/ls054789830/)

------
vinceguidry
We never talk about it? Seems for a long time it's all we talked about. You
don't have to go very far online without running into somebody ranting about
the privileges that beauty brings, and people with that privilege talking
about how it's not a silver bullet to life's problems and brings with it it's
own challenges.

Fat shaming, thin shaming, thigh gaps, Chads and Stacys, my head hurts just
thinking about it all.

Everything old is new again.

------
tomrod
Dan Hamermesh (well known labor economist) spent a significant part of his
career investigating the economic outcomes of beauty.

[0] Book:
[https://press.princeton.edu/books/paperback/9780691158174/be...](https://press.princeton.edu/books/paperback/9780691158174/beauty-
pays)

[1] Daily show: [https://econ.video/2017/11/27/the-daily-show-ugly-people-
dis...](https://econ.video/2017/11/27/the-daily-show-ugly-people-
discrimination/)

------
m0llusk
There are some important points raised here, but also a lot of sloppiness. If
so much is riding on beauty then it should be important to be precise so as to
understand what is going on.

Beauty is inherently subjective to the point of including wild contradictions
such as Europeans going to great lengths to tan their skin while Asians may
poison themselves with attempt to bleach their skin to make it lighter. This
is not some simple scale even if there may be examples of people that are
considered beautiful by many.

Modernity has made it common to be out of shape and overweight, so people who
put extra effort into maintaining their health tend to be considered more
beautiful than others. This means that to some extent beauty is a parameter
that can be controlled. This leads to complex trade offs where beautiful
people may be strongly desirable, but end up eating and exercising in a very
controlled way which makes deep socialization with ordinary people awkward.
Want to share lunch or a snack? Sorry, I don't snack and am not eating lunch
today or most days. Want to share a drama? Sorry, I am going to the gym and
expect to come back too low on time and energy for that. And so on.

------
chanandler_bong
Even in the most trivial sense, I have seen it in action.

Me (normal looking guy) and the GF (average-trending-to-pretty) at a fast food
restaurant. I go up to the counter and ask for a couple extra sauce packets,
only to be told they are 0.25 each.

GF goes up 1 minute later, asks for two sauce packets and is given a hand
full, for free.

~~~
klyrs
How many sauce packets does it take to fill the wage gap?

------
greggman3
I used to believe people were born beautiful and there is some truth to it but
even the people I've thought were most beautiful, if I look hard enough,
generally I can see they're just normal people who spend more time on
grooming, style, clothing, posture, presentation, charm, etc... Maybe they got
lucky and some of it came naturally, not necessarily genetically though
possibly but more like serendipity to gain those habits or skills.

Take the most beautiful person you know and see them when they're sick and
they rarely stay attractive.

In any case it's arguably learnable. I don't know if this example will
resonate but certain cities have a culture of beauty. Tokyo is one. People
dress up to go out, at least most women do. I use to think it was either (a)
they were born attractive or (b) the city attracted beautiful people. But,
I've changed my mind. Instead the city culture has set a standard and people,
in general, feel pressure to try to adhere to it.

I know it's an anecdote but a very attractive women once told me the only
difference between attractive and not is effort. We all probably know
exceptions but in my experience they are fairly rare. I'm not saying everyone
can be a 10 on a scale of 1 to 10 but I'm confident the majority of people can
be 7-8 even 9 with effort. Many of the most beautiful people I know, put them
in drab clothing with no make up and try to remove your memory of their prior
attractiveness and they just look like plain ordinary people.

~~~
ericmcer
You can't be unattractive and then hit the gym for a few months and put on a
collared shirt and be hot. Better looking than before sure, but not beautiful.
It is a nice myth for people to comfort themselves with I guess. It is also
viewed as unattractive to 'try really hard' when it comes to physical
appearance so you can have the reverse affect if your efforts to make yourself
attractive are too blatant.

~~~
swat535
Yea exactly, no amount of exercising will change your height as a man or the
way you look.

E.g All else being equal, you're going to have a hard time finding a partner
if you are 5'5 male.

Unfortunately, unattractive people will have to put in a lot more effort to
succeed in life, especially with regards to dating.

~~~
driven20
I'm 5'5\. Working out won't change your height but it definitely changes the
way you look. I have a beautiful girlfriend. I also have been compliment
plenty of times on the way my clothes fit and how I'm in great shape.

Yes, being short sucks, but it sucks not being born a millionaire too. No
reason to be down about it.

If you think being short sucks, try being short AND bitter.

------
kindatrue
Something I noticed recently (prepandemic of course) after living in Silicon
Valley for 20 years: the amount of plastic surgery that you see around town in
Palo Alto has really gone off the charts. Both men and women. So much botox.
So much nips/tucks.

It feels like Los Angeles light.

~~~
rrrrrrrrrrrryan
Software is centered in Silicon Valley, entertainment is centered in Los
Angeles, and ageism is rampant in both industries. It's not surprising that a
culture of plastic surgery would emerge here compared to a place like New
York, whose main industry is finance (where being perceived as older isn't
nearly as much of a career headwind).

------
greggman3
40 Rock talked about it at least twice.

In one episode some man who was supposed to be super attractive to everyone
had no idea he was so bad at everything. He passed through life because
everyone let him off the hook for his beauty.

In another episode a beautiful assistant started at the studio and charmed
everyone into getting her way. When Liv confronted her about it she replies
that if it's fair for Liv to use the brains her genetics gave Liv than it was
fair to her to use the beauty genetics gave her.

~~~
netsharc
Are you from a parellel universe? In this reality it's 30 Rock and the main
character is Liz Lemon.

~~~
greggman3
Haha, I only watched the first 2 seasons or so and what was 20 years ago (yes,
the number was a joke)

------
dvfjsdhgfv
> On the unofficial but universally-understood 10-point scale of looks, I’ve
> heard people call themselves a five, but never a one or a two. You might
> tell a friend “you’re a 10” but when was the last time you told someone you
> respect “you’re ugly.” In the world of euphemisms, “average” is the new
> below average and “ugly” is a taboo term reserved mostly for high school
> bullies or kids playing in sandboxes — or whatever it is five year olds do
> now.

Or maybe it's because beauty, just like most other traits in nature, follows
the normal distribution, so most of us are around 5, and very few are really
ugly (or astonishingly beautiful).

------
hprotagonist
_“If a person has ugly thoughts, it begins to show on the face. And when that
person has ugly thoughts every day, every week, every year, the face gets
uglier and uglier until you can hardly bear to look at it.

A person who has good thoughts cannot ever be ugly. You can have a wonky nose
and a crooked mouth and a double chin and stick-out teeth, but if you have
good thoughts it will shine out of your face like sunbeams and you will always
look lovely.”_

Roald Dahl, "The Twits"

The accompanying illustration has stuck with me for going on 30 years now:
[https://i.pinimg.com/originals/c9/45/2c/c9452c05e8c3e60455a3...](https://i.pinimg.com/originals/c9/45/2c/c9452c05e8c3e60455a3158c45e4c790.jpg)

I have met my share of people who by rights _ought to_ be physically
attractive but are not, which also reminds me of Shelley: _Half sunk a
shattered visage lies, whose frown / And wrinkled lip, and sneer of cold
command..._

~~~
mjw1007
So if I see someone with a wonky nose and a crooked mouth and I don't perceive
anything that gives me the impression of sunbeams shining out of their face,
should I assume they have ugly thoughts rather than good ones?

~~~
hprotagonist
spend some time with them and find out!

“handsome is as handsome does” is at least as old as Chaucer.

------
Grimm665
> They are perceived to have better personality qualities like trustworthiness

Reminds me of one of my favorite LoTR quotes, of Aragorn after first meeting
him:

Merry: "How do we know this Strider is a friend of Gandalf?"

Frodo: "I think a servant of the Enemy would look fairer and feel fouler."

------
ISL
Reading this article reminds me of Vonnegut's imagining of a future I never
thought would happen:

[http://www.tnellen.com/cybereng/harrison.html](http://www.tnellen.com/cybereng/harrison.html)

------
VarFarYonder
Doug Stanhope did a good bit on this: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RgXwc-
Gy19E](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RgXwc-Gy19E)

------
AlexandrB
While I agree with this overall, this list in the middle of the article was
unsourced and presented as "just-so":

> Here is a list of features that are objectively beautiful, and their
> absence, objectively ugly. Facial and body symmetry; proportional anatomy,
> height (particularly among men); a full set of straight, white teeth; a full
> head of hair; clear, evenly-toned, taut, skin; a well-toned physique;
> proportional features; large eyes.

Of these, the "well-toned physique" is probably historically incorrect[1] -
excess weight signified wealth and health for much of human history. Likewise,
"a full head of hair" is somewhat gender-specific - super important for women,
but many men can rock a bald head pretty well.

Overall, I think beauty ideals are somewhat more flexible than this article
assumes. This is _especially_ true for romantic attraction and especially in
some communities.

[1] Searching for this yields a lot of spam, best I found after a few minutes:
[https://www.cnn.com/2018/03/07/health/body-image-history-
of-...](https://www.cnn.com/2018/03/07/health/body-image-history-of-beauty-
explainer-intl/index.html)

~~~
kiplkipl
I find the CNN examples tenuous. If the same logic was applied to today's
relics in the future, historians might say that 8 foot tall anime women were
idealised beauty, in the same way newly discovered buildings tend to be called
temples. In reality (from the male perspective) preferences vary massively
between individuals.

If Rubens' women are an ideal, why aren't Picasso's?

------
bglusman
I'll just leave this here as highly recommended and relevant Ted Chiang story,
"Liking what you see: A Documentary" (PDF link to story)
[https://canvas.wayne.edu/courses/102861/files/3959556/downlo...](https://canvas.wayne.edu/courses/102861/files/3959556/download?download_frd=1)

------
diffrinse
Nietzsche claimed Socrates' renowned and profound ugliness would've been seen
as an implicit argument against him in his trial since ancient Athenian
culture openly associated ugliness with untrustworthiness.

~~~
diffrinse
As a follow-up, Aristophanes made it a point to underline Socrates' ugliness
in his depiction of him in _The Clouds_

------
save_ferris
I recently went on a first date with a woman that was certifiably gorgeous and
wound up having one of the most fascinating conversations on this topic.

She discussed her prior career in the military, where she spent 8 years and
ultimately got pushed out by a high-ranking officer (also female) in her
division for very political reasons. It wasn't just a superficial rant, she
described an incredibly detailed pattern of abuse and obstruction by some of
her COs.

My main takeaway was that attractive people tend to get more attention. Much
of it is probably good attention, but this isn't always the case. A few days
after that date, I heard about Vanessa Guillén, an Army soldier murdered by a
CO after suffering from persistent sexual harassment by him[0].

0: [https://www.texastribune.org/2020/07/06/fort-hood-soldier-
va...](https://www.texastribune.org/2020/07/06/fort-hood-soldier-vanessa-
guillen/)

~~~
zeveb
> I heard about Vanessa Guillén, an Army soldier murdered by a CO

The other soldier mentioned in that article was the same rank, not a
commanding officer (CO). In no way diminishes the seriousness of the apparent
murder, of course.

------
ma2rten
I can think of one that's even greater: intelligence.

~~~
anthonygd
Depends how you quantify privilege. I've seen a few convincing arguments that,
for men at least, height is a better predictor of success than intelligence.

------
motohagiography
Steve Martin once said about Gael Garcia Bernal, "I'd do anything to look like
that guy, except eat right and exercise."

It's very seductive to justify people's anxiety and envy by synthesizing a
narrow difference into an perceived injustice. If a person is truly repellent
or creepy, it's because they present something that triggers a sense of danger
or disgust in others, which is completely relative to the individuals. Liars
are usually repellent, so are predators, manipulators, often the mentally ill,
when you get a waft of that aspect of who they are. You have to ask who
benefits from you not trusting your instincts when it comes to being around
people you may feel repulsed by.

EDIT: corrected re comment below.

~~~
_bxg1
But there are lots of superficial traits that people _associate_ with those
categories of people, that don't actually serve as a remotely valid indicator.
And those kinds of associations, permeated throughout society, serve to make
some people's lives worse in a very real way. People on HN often overestimate
the rationality of humans, and underestimate the perpetuating effect that
stereotypes have.

~~~
motohagiography
The main issue is
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halo_effect](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halo_effect)
, but what gets missed when people use the Halo Effect term is that when the
performance of someone attractive or charismatic is only average, we blame
them for having "deceived" us, when it was our own bias toward them that
caused the disappointment.

Criticizing the "privilege" of the attractive as a means to de-legitimize them
personally seems to double down on this error and seduce people who have the
conceit of blaming others for their own biases into further self-
justification, imo.

~~~
_bxg1
I didn't take the article as seeking to "de-legitimize them". Having privilege
isn't a sin (unless you acquired it through some ill means, but that's not
even possible in most cases).

Privilege is nothing more than a social factor to be aware of, both for the
haver of privilege whose perspectives might be warped by their experiences,
and for the social systems (like the justice system, mentioned in the article)
who at least in theory are trying to be objective about things.

Don't take it so personally. Privilege doesn't make you a bad person, and
raising awareness of it is a good thing.

~~~
motohagiography
A lot of people would argue the idea of privilege is not a neutral or
valueless observation at all, and more precisely, it resembles a new original
sin invented by a secular movement instead of a religious one. Critical
frameworks that rely on it earn extra scrutiny. I recommend taking that
personally.

~~~
_bxg1
I think "a lot of people" is an over-statement, I don't think an intrinsically
broken moral judgement made by a minority of people should be allowed to
delegitimize the real issue, and I don't think the OP was talking about
anything but the real, legitimate issue.

Privilege is nothing but an acknowledgement that some people have advantages
in life that they didn't earn. There is no possible world in which it doesn't
exist, and almost by definition its holders can't usually be blamed for
holding it. But we can a) take steps as a society to decrease its impact in
various ways, and b) see it as a reality-check on social-darwinist or
meritocratic thinking.

~~~
motohagiography
There is no real or legitimate issue about how attractiveness is somehow
"unearned," as though it should be earned, I can only presume through labour,
and probably struggle, though it is not clear from whom one might earn it.
Perhaps the forces of history inevitably closing in on a dying class? The idea
of privilege is an artifact of that ideology and it's the defining attribute
of an antagonist. Is it useful? It is a tool that is applicable in some
limited instances, but applying it to the alleged "privilege" of beauty seems
like that old adage of when all you have is a hammer and sickle, everything
looks like a kulak.

~~~
_bxg1
The OP gave a clear example of how awareness of this bias could help real
people:

> In a meta analysis of the role of attractiveness in criminal sentencing, it
> was found that unattractive people received 120–305 percent longer sentences
> than attractive people.

So coming up with a way to factor physical appearance out of courtroom
proceedings could dramatically improve justice system outcomes. There's
nothing hand-wavy or insidious here. I really can't figure out where your
hangup is, and I think I'm going to stop engaging with this conversation
because it feels like a waste of time and energy.

------
seebetter
People are more biased by charisma, beauty, having a skill, being fashionable,
being talented, working hard etc etc. The idea that race alone is a deciding
factor is minor compared to how attractive you are in general.

------
nl
Note that most (all except one?) of the studies on attractiveness in
sentencing were using mock juries or similar (unlike the race based statistic
which uses real data).

In the single study that was based on real data there was no control for
income. The impact of that should be obvious to all: richer people are
generally better groomed in court and have better representation.

------
dathinab
> a full set of straight, white teeth;

Funny thing is in some Asian countries having a certain form of "crooked"
teeth is often seen as more attractive (in woman).

Similarly having body volume (e.g. slightly overweight) is often seen as
attractive (in man). (As it convoys wealth, only wealthy people can afford to
eat that much.)

Honestly most, not the large majority of people is not ugly and can have
reasonable good looks if they do _carry_ them self properly and war clean
clothes, hair, etc. Sure much more can be done using makeup or similar but
that costs time and money every day and is normally not necessary.

Sure people which look rally good still do have some benefit. I just mean that
for many people the problem is not inborn bad looks but how they carry them
self IMHO. But then beauty is very subjective so I wouldn't be surprised if
many people thing differently.

------
kevinventullo
"She must have been extraordinarily beautiful, because the mask she wore was
hideous."

------
baron816
Judging by stereotypes, I wouldn’t expect people here to pay that much
attention to their looks. But clearly it matters...a lot. After reading this
article, it shouldn’t be a surprise to anyone why people, especially women,
spend so much time and money obsessing over their appearance.

Yes, you could argue that it shouldn’t be this way and people shouldn’t dwell
on looks so much. But it doesn’t matter how right you are. Attraction isn’t
rational. It’s emotional and instinctive.

So do yourself a favor and always try to look your best. You don’t need to
care about what people _think_ about you, but should care about what people
_feel_ towards you, because it will impact the quality of your life.

------
HPsquared
How does one separate cause from effect here? People who are more privileged
have two advantages: they have more resources with which to maximise their
'beauty', and also beauty standards will tend towards emulating those of
higher status.

------
pragmatic
I don't think we realize how much "work" some people have had done.

Take Elon Musk. It's amazing how his hair grew back and that's he's aged so
well considering the stress he's under. Hair implants, Botox and a nip and
tuck here and there will keep you looking your billionaire best.

I was oblivious to this type of thing with men until my wife started pointing
it out.

It's no wonder that among the things that money can buy is happiness if
plastic surgery improves your esteem and how people react to you.

------
omarhaneef
Never talk about it? Ever hang out with college age people? They talk about it
a lot.

~~~
naringas
i think they mean talking about in the context of privilege

~~~
klyrs
It's a key component of incel discourse, in my experience.

~~~
Balgair
What brings you to the incel discourse?

~~~
klyrs
Individuals on HN, and other internet communities, have brought it to me. I
was also briefly exposed to it in uni.

------
dleslie
It's got a name: lookism

[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lookism](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lookism)

------
foogazi
Someone else mentioned intelligence, but being born human puts sets you up
better than any other living being on earth

Also everything is a privilege now: \- being human \- being alive \- having
two legs \- having two hands \- having two parents \- having a computer at
home \- having an iphone

------
TedDoesntTalk
> compared to other other privileges that may arise from race, gender, or
> sexuality, we don’t talk much about it.

Because beauty is relative. Whiteness and maleness are absolute. Sexuality,
once outed, is also absolute.

------
stunt
Beauty is a gift but not a privilege. I don't think the attention you get or
you don't get for it is valuable or is going to change your life.

Sure, some of the people around you are going to pay more attention to you but
you will not earn anything for it. No investor is going to invest on you
because you are beautiful. You don't get to control your life only because you
are beautiful.

It's other talents that you have and the choices you make that really helps
you to construct your life. And you get more privilege when you are more
successful. If someone is extremely beautiful and made a career in beauty or
fashion, it's not because (s)he is beautiful. Otherwise every naturally
beautiful person could make it.

------
x87678r
Its amazing that people I work with spend years and years at school learning
"skills" but spend no time learning looking good, social skills or how to
dress properly.

~~~
mjw1007
Perhaps they consider that people who spend effort on looking good or dressing
"properly" are playing _defect_ in a game of Prisoner's Dilemma.

------
hithereagain
I tell you honey, it's a crying shame; All the pretty girls really look the
same. \-- Iggy and the Stooges

------
lalos
It depends, we have the dumb blond stereotype and I know of developers who are
attractive and have a harder time interviewing because they get perceived as
dumber. It could be that there's an unconscious bias of hiring someone that
looks like a stereotypical movie hacker (long hair, beard, wearing old tech
swag, etc). This is of course changing slowly after Apple made a push on
cleaning up the image of all the higher ups to have them be part of the
presentations and now all companies seem to hire PR consultants that work the
appearance of their clients. You sort of see this aesthetic trickle down with
time.

1) Jonny Ive [http://www.edibleapple.com/2010/04/14/back-when-jonathan-
ive...](http://www.edibleapple.com/2010/04/14/back-when-jonathan-ive-had-hair-
and-a-mustache/)

2) Thiel and Musk (check Thiel's teeth)
[https://i.insider.com/5dc349153afd375c04352664?width=1136&fo...](https://i.insider.com/5dc349153afd375c04352664?width=1136&format=jpeg)

3) Bezos
[https://i.insider.com/596ccf31abc1c828528b4c9a?width=1136&fo...](https://i.insider.com/596ccf31abc1c828528b4c9a?width=1136&format=jpeg)

Guess money fixes beauty :)

~~~
xwdv
Damn how did Elon Musk regrow that much hair?

~~~
lossolo
There are only two ways to fix what he had. First is a hair transplant, he
would be around NW6 now so it was a lot of grafts. Second way is a hair system
(rebranded toupee), you can't really tell if someone is wearing one if it's
good, you can have exposed hairline, modern hair styles etc.

------
mellosouls
It's certainly true that beauty is a massive privilege and discriminator but
the title is somewhat hyperbolic; it is unlikely to be the greatest (compared
to the more obvious ones like race and gender etc) and is certainly talked
about, though not as much as it should be.

~~~
Sessions
The title is not saying 'this is the greatest privilege of all, and we don't
talk about it'\- it's saying 'among the privileges we don't talk about, this
is the greatest.'

Still might not be true, but it's less hyperbolic.

~~~
mellosouls
Yes, fair point - I misread. My second point stands though, it's certainly
talked about, but maybe not as much as it should be.

------
bjarneh
That was some depressing reading..

------
oconnor663
> Beauty might be the single greatest physical advantage you can have in life.

Oh for God's sake, some people are born without eyes.

> Attractive people might have a hard time coming to terms with all of this.
> Doing so would require relegating at least part of their achievements to
> something mostly unearned.

No one deserves anything. The idea falls apart as soon as we even begin to
examine it. I could walk into the woods and build a hut out of mud and sticks.
Did I "earn" that mud hut, or was I privileged to be born with hands? Does the
fact that most people are born with hands matter? If so, how can we quantify
how it matters?

At the end of the day, none of this makes any sense, and we need to come up
with notions of "success" (socially speaking) and "property rights" (legally
speaking) that are based on something else.

------
mam2
So when is america going to do positive discrimination toward ugly people ?

------
superkuh
Society is very quickly becoming obsessed with turning Kurt Vonnegut's
"Harrison Bergeron" cautionary tale into reality.

~~~
komali2
I disagree entirely. I see people being lifted up. In that story, people were
torn down.

I have noticed this trend though, of reacting to justice movements by claiming
it'll tear down people. Why do you believe this?

~~~
andreilys
There’s a lot of vitriol aimed at rich people right now, regardless of how
they attained their wealth.

I imagine it’ll soon be transferred to talented people as well.

Soon we’ll be right where the story predicted, everyone wears handicaps to
make themselves equal.

~~~
jaltekruse
I don't care how you made your money, hoarding it should be looked down on.
Greed is bad, we don't need to make things illegal, but I sure as hell am
going to think anyone with a privately owned Yacht is a little bit worse of a
person than someone reinvesting their money in their community and trying to
explore new ideas, or if you are tired and don't want to personally invent
stuff or run another business, go find some enthusiastic entrepreneur to
support. I am not against rich people having power, I think we should get them
to pay their damn taxes and fair share, but beyond part of their money that
ought to be allocated by a democratically elected government they can do what
they want with their wealth to control the world. But anyone using their money
to just show how wealthy they are is going to get serious judgement from me,
and I think that is a healthy way to think about rich people.

I think it should be likely obvious from my statement above, I want there to
be talented people, and I really don't see a substantial movement to pull down
successful people.

What are examples of things people are doing that make you think we are going
in this direction?

~~~
dnautics
but seriously everything you are saying is seething with value judgements.

> should get them to pay their damn taxes and fair share

what constitutes a 'fair share'? Who gets to decide?

it's easy to criticize yachts. Let's say a billionaire did something "you
might like" like throw a ton of money into a basic physics project. But what
if that basic physics project is looking for superluminal neutrinos? Or maybe
you'd criticize that the billionaire just wanted to get their name out, which
is, essentially vanity, an obviously negative character trait.

Or we could get into sketchier territory. What if the billionaire spent tons
of money in "development" in an "underdeveloped country". Is that bad or good?
Who gets to decide?

I mean the ironic thing is that on many metrics, buying a yacht could be the
least bad thing of the three things that I have mentioned, at least the
likelihood of buying a yacht actively hurting someone else is relatively low.

~~~
jaltekruse
On taxes this will forever be an evolving discussion. Hopefully with good
policies over the next few decades we can even out some of the income and
wealth disparities and need a smaller welfare state. When that happens I'm all
for tax cuts.

But at this point the capital gains rate is absolutely in need of change.
Taxing the rich is really politically popular, across the political spectrum.
If someone has to pay %39 on a million dollars of earned income, the "job
creators" making billions can pay something closer to that on their income
too.

~~~
dnautics
Well the whole taxation thing, IMO is insane. There was a year when I made 30k
and paid a higher proportion of my income to taxes than Bernie Sanders.
Anyways if it's income disparity you're looking to fix, taxing the rich isn't
going to help. You need to stop stealing from the poor, which is what the
government does via policies like QE. Taxing the rich is linear, the QE is
compounding damage.

------
xwdv
Beauty is an earned privilege.

------
anegri
Although this is a real phenomenon, individuals do possess the ability to
improve their looks. With maybe a couple exceptions, nearly everyone can
become very attractive if they take care of themselves, dress well, and lead a
healthy lifestyle.

~~~
bradlys
> nearly everyone can become very attractive if they take care of themselves,
> dress well, and lead a healthy lifestyle.

You're going to have to define very attractive. No amount of healthy lifestyle
will make your breasts bigger. No amount of dressing well will make your face
less ugly (short of putting a curtain in front of it).

There are hard limits to what you can do as an individual without surgery.
Even with surgery, you still will run into a wall.

~~~
anegri
Yeah of course those things are out of control. My point is that the things
you can control have a huge impact. Maybe you can never be a 10/10 because of
some specific flaw, but you could likely be at least an 8. Also flaws tend to
be seen more as quirks in more "attractive" people.

------
MattGaiser
Who doesn’t talk about this?

You see this discussion everywhere from The Guardian to Incel forums. You see
activists going on about “beauty standards.”

This is often discussed.

------
dvfjsdhgfv
> Good looks, just like intelligence, positive affect, or disease-resistance,
> is a largely genetic advantage in life that we should not punish.

Well, wait a few years. I was surprised so many times recently with ridiculous
initiatives, and I'm sure it can get way worse than that.

------
caddie
Beauty is 99% hard work and 1% inherited.

~~~
TedDoesntTalk
Can you explain? There are people who are beautiful without any grooming.

~~~
caddie
add 300 pounds and let's see if they're still beautiful

------
ed25519FUUU
One of the first “privileges” I learned about in my life was being tall. Why
was it the first? Because short kids and friends I knew would openly lament
about being short. Something I could tell they think about constantly, and
something I _never_ thought about.

I suspect it’s played a large role in dating and interviewing for jobs, though
no one ever openly says “you’re projecting more confidence simply because
you’re taller than average”

~~~
J-dawg
Being tall is a huge privilege for a man. It's a large component of male
attractiveness.

Many women make it clear on dating sites that they won't consider anyone below
a certain height, or at least taller than they are.

------
nobrains
Really? I disagree. Those who do not have beauty, end up compensating for it
by exceeding in some other trait, and in the end, these other traits, or the
ability to exceed in these other traits is the privilege, those not endowed
with beauty get. So, it balances, and sometimes to the benefit of those not
endowed with beauty.

~~~
saas_sam
Do you feel that way about every differential advantage, such as money and
family support in childhood, or is there something unique about beauty that
causes people to compensate better?

------
J-dawg
This is a good example of how the modern philosophy of identity politics falls
apart when you seriously examine it.

Think of all the ways that people are innately privileged (or not):
intelligence, height, beauty, upbringing, parental wealth, personality
profile.

Any combination of the above can have a vastly greater impact on a person's
life outcomes than race, gender, sexuality etc.

~~~
merpnderp
"In the year 2081, the 211th, 212th, and 213th amendments to the Constitution
dictate that all Americans are fully equal and not allowed to be smarter,
better-looking, or more physically able than anyone else. The Handicapper
General's agents enforce the equality laws, forcing citizens to wear
"handicaps": masks for those who are too beautiful, loud radios that disrupt
thoughts inside the ears of intelligent people, and heavy weights for the
strong or athletic."

~~~
nathanaldensr
Harrison Bergeron[1], for those who don't know. A wonderful short story.

[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harrison_Bergeron](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harrison_Bergeron)

