
Can English Majors Be Good Developers? - smit
http://bostinno.com/2012/12/14/can-english-majors-become-good-developers/#ss__273985_244464_0__ss
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timfrietas
English major here. Leader of a tech team at a leading company.

Derrida and David Foster Wallace were technically more challenging to my
intelligence than what I do now. Don't get me wrong, I love my job, and it is
_not_ easy! But it is pretty entertaining (bordering on insulting) to see
engineers huff and gruff that no one but engineers can be engineers. There's
this weird rift in the developer world where only CS degrees are respected or
only wunderkinds who dropped out of high school in their freshman year at a
prestigious university are real engineers and everyone else is unworthy of the
title. I suppose it is partly because it is a threat to the specialization of
engineers (how can someone four years behind me be as good: impossible!). In
my experience, however, some of the best people I have worked with are doing
something _other_ than what their degree is in because they are curious people
who are passionate about lots of things and picked one in college because they
had to for the sake of a major. Lots of people happen to be good with both
sides of their brain.

~~~
edderly
It is sad that degrees have become 'character classes'. I think people lose
perspective that a degree is at worst a piece of paper describing what you may
have been studying for a very brief part of your life.

It cuts both ways too. It's laughable that an English literature degree would
somehow make you more empathetic than an electronics student.

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lazerwalker
"English majors" is a pretty wide-reaching group. You have really intelligent
people who are passionate about deep analysis of literature, and you have
people who just felt like majoring in liberal arts because they're lazy and
"science is hard". Anecdotally, I have a good friend with a BA in English Lit
who's now doing Rails dev at an early-stage startup (and doing a pretty bang-
up job, from what I hear).

I'm willing to buy that, statistically speaking, more people who major in
computer science or math will become good developers than people who major in
the humanities, but that's fairly obvious: what you major in is a decent
indicator of what you're interested in. Sure, not every English major who
learns to code will become a rockstar ninja guru, but that's true of STEM
students as well. Unless you can prove otherwise, there's no reason to believe
that there's something inherent about majoring in English that inhibits the
sort of analytic mindset that engineering requires.

~~~
ricardobeat
Exactly. The question is as absurd as "Can Biology Majors be good MotoGP
pilots?"

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jlgreco
From personal experience, yes. (I am not, but I know a few). When they are
good, they tend to be _damn_ good.

There is a selection bias going on though. If you are a mediocre programmer
with a CS degree, you can present yourself as a programmer with little
delusion. However if you are, say, an English major programmer, chances are
you won't advertise yourself as a programmer unless you really are the best
sort of natural.

Skilled learned in an English program certainly may help, but all of the
English major programmers that I know have always been programmers. They are
naturals, have known it since at least early highschool, and picked their
major despite that.

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specialist
Years ago, on a tour of public K-12 schools, a principle asked me why software
developers were such bad writers.

I said "au contraire", all the great developers I know are also great writers.
In fact, if a person can't write well, I believe they probably can't code well
either. I explained to the tour group that programming is just like writing an
essay. Organize your thoughts, logical, clarity, etc.

Some of the best developers I've worked with come from outside tech. Ballet
dancer, bus driver, EE, historian.

Because I value communication, intuition, and creativity, I get a little
worried when a team only has CS nerds and script kiddies.

~~~
cafard
Djikstra thought that programmers needed mathematical maturity and the ability
to write well in one's native language.

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tmh88j
I don't like these "so and so proven to be a great coder" type articles. Who
cares what you have previously studied or worked with? Sure some skills can
carry over, but with training any competent person can be a developer. We may
not all be the equivalent of Vonnegut(well, English-studying folks), but then
again not everyone needs to write an OS kernel for that matter. If you're a
great developer there's a reason for that; you're intelligent and have a
strong understanding. Understanding concepts can be learned over time,
intelligence can't.

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blindhippo
Can Computer Science majors be good writers? Can Math majors be good
politicians?

I've met philosophy majors, english majors, biology majors, comp sci majors,
and even people with no university level education - all were good even great
coders. I majored in History and yet have done quite well as a software
developer.

I took 2 years of Computer science - it was 2 years of wasted drivel that has
helped me solve ZERO real world problems. Also, I hate math. Surprise, you
don't need math to code. You need to solve problems at an applied level to be
a successful coder - ANY intelligent person can do this if they enjoy actually
using coding tools.

Anecdotal it may be, but I've never seen any advantage to hiring or working
with Comp Sci grads over other disciplines. So yes, English Majors CAN be good
developers.

~~~
Terretta
> _I majored in History_ and yet _have done quite well as a software
> developer._

I prefer to hire history majors[1] as developers. They tend to do well at
holding complex systems in their heads, understanding them, and explaining
them.

1\. Ideally history plus some kind of engineering, where engineering is
defined as design, building, and use of practical engines, machines, systems,
or structures. Biology can fit this definition, but not, say, sports
marketing.

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kjackson2012
Most programmers gravitate towards programming because they is some aspect of
programming that inherently interests them. I have about a dozen friends that
I've tried to convince to learn how to program, even something as simple as
Excel formulas, and they just weren't interested.

Most people won't find sitting in front of a computer day after day
interesting. It takes a certain mindset to get comfortable writing and
organizing things in your head an on a screen.

There is something to be said about the analogy to writing, however. When I
code, I always feel like I'm trying to tell a story, and my goal is to make it
easier for the next person who reads my code (likely me) to understand what I
was trying to do. If it's too byzantine and "clever", and I have to sit there
and think about what I was trying to do, then I'm doing something wrong.

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lubujackson
Successful English major/developer here from the first boom. I'd say there's
some natural advantages to English majors (aside from the "whatever degree"
people who just wanted to graduate) because reading and writing require a lot
of the same deep concentration as programming. It also gives them a natural
advantage in communication, via documentation or just explaining their line of
reasoning. It might be different now, but in 1999 there weren't many colleges
teaching HTML and web development, so everyone was learning this stuff on
their own anyway. In general, I've found people from liberal arts backgrounds
have a more well-rounded approach and (maybe because of survivorship bias)
they are not as narrowly-focused as most Computer Science -> web developers.

~~~
davimack
Totally agree (also a successful English major / developer from the first
boom).

A lot of what fascinated me was the underlying grammar and syntax of language
and how, if you knew how to manipulate those symbols ("words") through the use
of an appropriate tool (diagrams, but not the ones you remember from when you
were a kid learning to write sentences) you could manipulate sentences almost
like they were tree-structures - without changing the meaning.

That said, to _succeed_ as a developer, I felt compelled to go out and get a
Master's in Information Systems ... but that was about career success (nobody
wanted an English Major to be their IT Project Manager, for some reason).

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douglasisshiny
I have a BA in English literature. I'm not a developer, but hope to be
eventually. Anyway, the question is ridiculous. One may as well ask, "Can
programmers read a book and write a pithy criticism on it (grounded in some
school of literary criticism)?"

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simonsarris
I have a dual degree in Computer Science and Philosophy[1] (graduated 2010).

In every interview I had people pointed to the Philosophy part of my degree as
a quaint curiousity and asked about it. I told of how I love writing and
debate, and I think that effective communication is one of the most important
and understated concepts in every scientific profession.

I love Computer Science but I _really_ love writing and ethics[2] and
conversation. I love communication and the art (and science) of effectively
conveying ideas. I'd probably love advertising, to be honest.

If I had to do college all over again I'd probably try to do
English/Philosophy/CS, with perhaps CS as the minor. I have _enormous_ respect
for liberal arts majors, but more-so than other majors, and I think this is
very important, the value of humanities degrees are _very much what you put
into them._ It didn't seem hard in my school at least to get a
Phil/Communications/English degree compared to a STEM degree, but that in
itself only meant that what you got out of a humanities degree was entirely
based on your input, and there was a lot of input to be had. I definitely
found humanities majors vastly more socially capable than the engineer majors,
almost to an embarrassing degree.[3]

Anyway I do think that CS and any communication/writing-intensive major
compliment each other grandly. It seems only natural, especially with the
intersection of logic in Philosophy or clear composition in English. But I
also think these majors compliment CS because I think the largest deficiency
in every other CS and engineering grad I've met is that they have a hard time
communicating their ideas and debating others effectively. English and
Philosophy (and any writing in general) help with that. A lot, in my opinion.

I had 12 years of Catholic Schooling and they stressed the hell out of essay
writing. Composition composition composition. Looking back, I feel that was a
really important thing, and it made all of us better people, in terms of
relating and communicating.

In fact, and I think this is the most important takeaway from my silly
ramblings here, I think that _writing_ and writing a lot makes you more a more
empathetic person. I think that the more you have to put down your ideas to
explain or persuade other people in a medium that you can look back on, the
more you will have to consider and understand other points of view. Doubly so
if you are required to write about topics that you may not be fanatic about.
Anyone can write an argument about why, say, PHP sucks (or not) without
getting much out of it for themselves, since they are just puking their zeal
onto paper (or pixels) and probably don't give all too much thought to really
convincing people. But having to consider things that you aren't already a
true believer in takes a lot of nuance and brain-turning. I think, anyway.

[1] <http://i.imgur.com/6oTix.jpg>

[2] in the Aristotelian/Kant/Mill/Humanity's greater good/etc sense of the
word, not the vague-ideas-gotten-by-parents-and-peers sense which is usually
picked up on (see for instance almost the entire abortion debate)

[3] I'm quite the introvert and it took me a long time to overcome the social
interaction thing that seemed to plague so many of my peers in college. I was
_supremely_ shy as a kid and tended to hide behind my mom whenever we went
somewhere. My 8th grade class was just 21 people (two groups of 10 and 11),
and my high school was just 500-600 people. Going in to college I was unused
to, well, interaction.

In my freshman year of college it all hit me. My college (RPI) was known for
being an introverted place and I met so many great people who almost literally
never left their rooms. Great minds and personalities who were self-
sequestered from the world.

It felt tragic sometimes. I met and found a lot of people wanted to meet
people but had a great fear of simply being in public spaces more and
exchanging pleasantries. Others still, and this was not an uncommon opinion,
would disparage the idea of small talk as useless. It's funny but, of all
places, once I came to college and met enough varied and amazing people I
became vastly, vastly less shy. It just wasn't worth it to be shy when there
were so many great people to meet.

~~~
sharkweek
Studied poli sci in college ('07), now I work in tech/marketing -- People
always joke about it being a mismatch ("how did you end up there?!") and I
normally make a comment about getting lost on the way to law school, but
truthfully, it has actually been a great compliment to where I'm at now with
how much focus it had on debate, writing and psychology (I focused heavily on
public policy).

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saosebastiao
Interestingly, I know of plenty of English majors that could ace a class in
boolean logic or set theory...both core underpinnings of good developers. They
understand that words and symbols have very distinct meanings, which is
surprisingly lacking in a lot of professional developers that I know.

I do not come from an English background, nor an engineering/CS
background...and while I am not a developer (I do code, but not full time), I
can lead a team of developers just fine within my area of expertise. I
wouldn't hesitate to put an English major with moderate coding skills on a
team that was tasked with Natural Language Processing.

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sk2code
Why CS is being stereotyped? My wife is an English Major and now she is
learning to code. She does have some issues in the beginning but with time she
is getting better and better. She told me recently that how tough was some
concepts when she started but with practice she is able to grasp them and now
she is confident. Will she face fierce competition in the the job market which
will put her against some of the people with CS major background? Absolutely.
But she is all prepared to explain to her interviewer the passion for her to
pursue programming as a career. If someone is good at maths and science from
the very beginning then the chances are that they will end up pursuing there
career in Tech. What I call "By chance". But for some other people who are
taking this audacious decision to enter the field of programming/tech
irrespective of their background are the people who I call "By choice". And
according to me people who are entering this amazing field of
CS/Programming/Tech by choice should be respected and supported.

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russell
When I started back in the day before there were any computer science majors,
I was surprised by the large number of musicians in the profession. There was
something about music and programming that clicked together. If you remember
the Los Altos Hills Marching Band, they were mostly programmers, although they
were known more for their humor than their music.

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16s
Larry Wall has a bachelor's degree in "Natural and Artificial Languages". He
wrote Perl for all you youngsters out there ;)

~~~
codewright
The influence of Wall's linguistics background on Perl is pretty profound and
obvious. He referenced it often.

>He wrote Perl for all you youngsters out there

I don't know what's young for you, but I'm 24 and was perfectly familiar with
Wall's work and background.

------
wallflower
In my opinion, writing good software is less like writing (the analogy of
copy-and-paste holds to coding as well as writing) and more like weaving.
Writing, at least, in the chapter format, isn't tightly coupled in terms of
chapters as program modules. Yes, most books have an overarching plot - but
how many programs are stories? They are more like buildings. The
infrastructure (HVAC, electrical) must be in place before building floors.
Floors can vary and be isolated. The building as a whole serves a business
purpose. Oh and make sure your critical infrastructure cannot be flooded
(Sandy). Tiny Towers - FTW!

With weaving, you have to be attuned as the whole structure of the cloth
before you start writing. You need to see the big picture and concentrate on
the details.

Yes, there is no equivalent refactoring tool like an IDE for weaving but I
belabor my point..

~~~
jgj
Interesting that you use the term "weave" which is so often associated with
the construction of a good plot in writing/storytelling.

That said, I think maybe you haven't read good enough fiction :)

~~~
wallflower
Recommend any fiction authors off the top of your head? I read more non-
fiction, definitely.

Last fiction author I read was Alice Munro ("For the love of a good woman")

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columbo
I'm not Sean Lindsay so I can't speak for him, but I remember the first bubble
and his phrase resonated with me, and not because 'english majors aren't good
developers'. I don't think that is what he meant by it.

The first bubble was about 'boots on the ground' and an extremly limited pool
of talent. I was getting calls to move to New York, California, Chicago...
because I KNEW JAVASCRIPT. There was no stack-exchange, no learning blogs and
most information was still gathered through purchasing the O'Reilly on X or
submitting a question to X's newsgroup.

So the phrase "how many English majors on your dev team?" really just meant
(IMHO) "How many people do you have that really don't know what they are
doing"... I don't think reading that phrase in today's bubble scenario makes
as much sense as it did twelve years ago.

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jsamuel
If being a good developer was only related to technical skills and background,
hiring would sure be a lot easier.

One of the best developers I know was an English major. He's even more amazing
as a leader. He now leads a large team of engineers and I hope to someday get
the chance to work with him again.

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nicholas73
As an electrical engineer teaching himself to code, I found programming to be
a lot more comparable to writing than engineering. Coding is at the same time
a logical and creative process, and a lot like juggling how pieces of an essay
or story fit together to a chosen goal for your audience. Engineering seems a
lot more rigid - you have a set problem and a known best practice solution. In
that sense it is more like solving a list of math problems. Yes I know the
best math (and engineering) problems require creativity and an intuitive feel,
but by and large that kind of work is only available to the top of the field.
But, you can code and write whatever you like and ship it at zero cost.

------
cmccarrick
I believe that they can. I grew up on computers and interested in science. I
also loved books and read every possible minute of every day. I first majored
in Biology and after my first year realized that I had hardly read any books.
I felt empty. I added English Literature as a double major; doing both was
tough but worth it. I never stopped hacking on the side and eventually started
my first computer company in college. I have been developing ever since. I am
now a CTO and I believe that the mix of science and arts helps me do my job as
a people and technical leader. Also the former CTO and now CEO of Etsy Chad
Dickerson was an Engligh Lit major as well.

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lhnz
Flawless grammar and the ability to reason about abstract things like
linguistics, historical context and an author's intention are obviously easily
transferable skills.

I would expect cult behavior from certain kinds of developers however.

------
jamesaguilar
It's not like having a CS major does anything special. It just gives you some
extra practice. If an English major practices, of course they too will become
good.

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acabal
I have a degree in both CS and English... so yes.

A lot of programming is trade work, like being a carpenter or a glass blower.
Anyone can learn to do it with guidance and practice. You don't need a CS
degree to write a good shell script, a CRUD web app, etc. Just the willingness
to learn the tools and some fundamentals.

It's not until you get in to deeper stuff like system services development or
internet plumbing that the CS degree becomes more necessary.

------
thirdtruck
Theatre and Film Studies major here, albeit one who went into 3D animation as
a transfer out of art school.

Looking back, though, that choice of major reflected confusion on my part more
than any connection between liberal studies and software development. You
would have caught me writing custom model-dialing scripts on OpenBSD back in
junior high.

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aarondf
IMO anyone can be a good developer given enough practice, patience, and
desire.

Soo... yes.

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justizin
Yes. They're great at naming variables with one word. ;)

------
ErikAugust
They can. Depends what you are building. Zuckerberg built Facebook - as a
CS/Psychology major. Kinda makes sense, doesn't it?

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dccoolgai
You can skip the degree but not the work of understanding important counter-
intuitive concepts that it represents.

------
ulisesrmzroche
Thats where you learn the trick to stare at a blank page until your forehead
bleeds.

------
tingletech
yes

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bstewartny
Yes

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edna_piranha
define 'good developer'

------
michaelochurch
When I was 18, my "secret" plan was to be a creative writer. I didn't tell my
parents (who wanted me to focus on math) this and took a lot of math and, once
I got into proof-based classes, loved it. So I majored in math, but also put a
lot of effort (most outside of coursework) into creative writing, which was
quite challenging in its own way.

My creative writing was hit-or-miss. I once got last place in a poetry slam,
but that was a problem with delivery/performance rather than an issue with the
writing. I did get good at creative writing, but probably not good enough (at
least, not in time for the real world) to do it full-time. Ultimately, I'd say
I failed (I was 18-22) because I didn't understand _people_ at that age. Prose
was no problem, but I sucked (back then) at actually communicating.

I think that my writing and game design experiences gave me a lot in terms of
being a good programmer, however. I've built some good games, and some bad
ones (that the world will never see, mercifully). The bad ones were
instructive. Watching a design utterly fail because of too much complexity is
good preparation for software, because 90% of the pain we experience is
dealing with badly designed, over-complex cruft.

We need _more_ competent communicators, by far. No question in my mind about
that.

------
adekok
The best predictor of university physics scores is high school English scores.

Why? Physics is about relationships. Sure, there's math. But it's about
understanding the big picture, and the relationships between the pieces. It's
about how to convince the math to solve the physics problem.

I suspect the same thing is true for programming. People who randomly type
until it compiles can get programming jobs. They can even do well at large
corporations.

People who understand the relationships do less coding. But the coding they do
is more likely to be correct.

~~~
richardwhiuk
Do you have any evidence that this is true? Particularly that this is the
'best' indicator?

~~~
adekok
No evidence with me. This is recollection from my degrees ~20 years ago.

