
Facebook Novi: Wallet for Libra Digital Currencies - milen
https://novi.com
======
milen
Note that Novi is the rebrand of Calibra [1].

[1] [https://about.fb.com/news/2020/05/welcome-to-
novi/](https://about.fb.com/news/2020/05/welcome-to-novi/)

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iso-8859-1
> Will Novi charge fees?

"What you send is what they get. You can add, send, receive, and withdraw
money from your wallet without worrying about hidden charges. Novi is cutting
fees to help people keep more of their money."

What a weird evading answer. "Cutting fees"? That doesn't sound like 0.

~~~
codegladiator
I guess what that means is the "fee" is cut out from the flow. Meaning it's
not there.

~~~
save_ferris
Then why didn’t they just say “zero fees”? Marketing around financial products
is usually pretty clear when the answer is simple. They’re definitely leaving
an opening here.

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Assossa
If anyone is wondering why this is a big deal, let me explain. All major
payment systems currently (PayPal, Venmo, FB Messenger, etc) are still based
on government currencies. Libra is different as it is a cryptocurrency, so no
government can easily control it. This might seem fine since everyone likes
Bitcoin and such, but those cryptocurrencies are controlled by the community,
not by a central organization. Libra is controlled by a group of major
corporations and organizations, not by the community. Meaning that if those
corporations decide to do something with the currency, no person or government
could stop them.

That might not sound too bad. They own platform, so they should be able to
control it, right? However, you need to consider that if someone controls the
economy of a country, they control the government of that country as well.
They would be able to control inflation and therefore the boom/bust cycle. If
Libra is used by the majority of citizens and businesses in a country, then
the group of corporations ruling Libra will be able to manipulate that
country's government to do their bidding. I imagine countries with unstable
governments will be the first heavy adopters of Libra and those governments
are the easiest to manipulate. Libra could spawn the age of global
corporatism.

Libra may turn out fine and improve the world, but that is only if its
administration remains uncorrupted. Take a look through the list of entities
that have joint control of Libra. I doubt you would trust most of them to
control the world economy.

But this is the exact reason that Libra is controlled by a diverse group of
organizations, right? I don't believe that's going to have much effect.
Facebook and similar corporations already bully smaller businesses and
organizations, so what prevents them from bullying or deceiving the smaller
organizations in the Libra Association to vote for manipulative changes?

~~~
jki275
Libra is not a cryptocurrency.

It's a centralized payment processor owned by a group of banks.

It's no different from any other company store scrip.

~~~
Assossa
Depends on your definition of a cryptocurrency. Libra is a blockchain
distributed across multiple separate entities. That fits the definition of a
cryptocurrency for most people. If your definition of a cryptocurrency
requires community control, then no, it's not a cryptocurrency.

~~~
jki275
It's a distributed ledger "distributed" among a permission group of owners.

The real test is if you can just replace it with a database is it still
relevant? In this case, you change nothing by just removing the "blockchain"
and replacing it with a database server. Same thing with XRP, it's not
distributed consensus in any meaningful way and thus is not a cryptocurrency
by any accepted definition.

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rrmm
And since it's from facebook, you know you can trust it!

~~~
bootlooped
It's a sad state of affairs, but I would honestly trust Facebook more than
your average cryptocurrency startup or exchange. That is still not enough
trust for me to use their product though.

~~~
rrmm
The average crypto startup or exchange is probably a scam. So maybe not the
best measure.

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hansdieter1337
I’m almost certain that no country in the world wants to loose control over
their currency. Especially not the US. The only thing that could happen is
that they underestimate it and it becomes too big to fight it. Also, FB will
probably bribe - eh, I mean - lobby some politicians. It works for Intuit :)

~~~
I_am_tiberius
I think it's a misunderstanding that countries lose control. With the
introduction of the digital dollar (Libra seems to be only a stable coin == a
digital dollar), cash payments will become less popular and at one point
governments will abandon cash. With all dollars being digital, governments
will be in full control of consumer spending by influencing interest rates
that are charged by the Libra system. Without being able to leave the Libra
system, you'll be forced to buy goods when interest rates decrease.

~~~
save_ferris
> governments will be in full control of consumer spending by influencing
> interest rates that are charged by the Libra system

How can governments be in full control if there's a private
partner/consortium/whatever that controls the technology? This seems akin to
the whole "drive for Uber and be your own boss" argument.

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I_am_tiberius
Sorry, obviously "full control" is the wrong expression. But you get my point
I guess.

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save_ferris
That’s just it though, I disagree that governments will have “full control” in
that situation, they can only lose control as this technology becomes adopted.

They gain nothing while taking on a private partner, one that has an abhorrent
history of privacy abuse. It’s so hard to see the benefit for anyone other
than Facebook in this

~~~
I_am_tiberius
Please consider that just because Facebook is allowed to trade dollars in a
digital way, it doesn't mean that they can produce dollars. Production is
still in the hands of governments. Privacy wise I'm full on your side. But I
still think it's also a benefit for governments - they'll lose on one side but
gain on the other. Cash is a burden for them.

~~~
save_ferris
Maintaining cash currency will cost the US roughly $877M[0], out of the
Federal Government’s $4.7T budget, or 0.01% of the Federal budget.

So in your view, sacrificing people’s privacy by giving this sensitive data to
Facebook and ceding the government’s distribution control for what amounts to
minuscule savings is worth it? Just for scale, if you were operating a $100k
budget, you’d be saving $10 while giving a private company immense control of
the financial system.

How do you justify that?

0:
[https://www.federalreserve.gov/faqs/currency_12771.htm](https://www.federalreserve.gov/faqs/currency_12771.htm)

~~~
I_am_tiberius
Sorry, I don't understand your answer as I'm clearly against Facebook's
strategy. And so are you as I understand.

------
RMPR
Maybe before we rush to adopt <Libra> we should stop to consider the
consequences of blithely giving this technology such a central position in our
lives.

~~~
biolurker1
What's different than bank apps but better?

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skohan
Privatized currency - I'm sure nothing could go wrong there

~~~
biolurker1
it's the same as the banks currently. if you don't like it you can use
physical cash but having FB app or BoA app is the same.

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michaelyoshika
I'm just here watching FB spending billions doing free advertising for
Bitcoin.

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cschneid
From the FAQ: "In the event of fraud, you will be eligible to receive a full
refund"

Is that baked into Libra? Some form of reversible transactions? Or is this
Facebook offering to take the risk temporarily while it gets traction?

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frogpelt
"Eligible" but will you receive it?

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iphone_elegance
So if this takes off I'm going to be at a disadvantage because I don't use
facebook?

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imhoguy
Well, you would be worse if you put your money there and then be kicked-out by
some AI rule. And ofc vague notification, no refund, no way to appeal, just a
/dev/null form to send complaints.

I already see these HN headlines: "FB cut me out of my money".

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scottporad
Anybody have thoughts on how much traction Libra and Novi get? At first, I was
skeptical, but I’m thinking that over 3-5 years that it will catch on.

~~~
nkozyra
It's going to be really hard to get people to trust this organization. I think
it's going to be an uphill battle, one they could win, but there's room for a
more trusted company to swoop in.

~~~
wmf
How many users does Facebook have again? How many hours per day?

~~~
nkozyra
I think a lot of people use it WHILE distrusting it because they think the
impact is low and the threat vector limited. When you start talking money I
think that changes.

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zip1234
Novi Michigan now headed further down the search results page

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joosters
Yes! I've always wished that Facebook could see all of my financial
transactions.

~~~
pixxel
Can’t they anyway? No doubt they harvest offline data such as loyalty cards,
points, etc. Gah.

~~~
henriquez
Not if you don’t use that stuff. Facebook dreams of a world where your consent
is default because you don’t realistically have a choice.

------
lgl
Still think "Libra" was a badly chosen name. In (at least) spanish and
portuguese languages, the word "Libra" is most of the times used to refer to
the british pound. So "50 pounds" is actually literally translated to "50
Libras" in those languages.

So, if this thing ever takes off, there will be around 700 million people that
will be calling it "Facebook Libra" and not just "Libra" in order to make the
distinction. Not sure if this was what they intended in the first place, but I
don't see why.

~~~
downrightmike
If this picks up, them being the smaller markets, they'll probably have to
preprend something or just change.

~~~
lgl
Well, they did pretty much "stole" the word messenger that is now mainly
associated with their app so I wouldn't put it past them.

I wonder if they ever considered going for "Facebook Dollar". I think we all
know that's what they're really going for.

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mNovak
For my understanding, is it possible this could actually be a decent thing for
the rest of world? Not ideal, but an improvement? Or is the argument they
should just be using <cryptocurrency> ?

~~~
bitxbitxbitcoin
It's possible that it's a good thing for certain parts of the world as a non-
volatile alternative to the domestic currency. However, with all centralized
things - it'll be good up until the moment that it's not.

Other commenters have mentioned the moral hazard that could occur if a region
finds its economy priced on a corporate group's currency versus a country or
country group's currency.

I guess now the discussion goes back to would you rather trust <insert name of
depostic country with history of ignoring certain rights> or <insert names of
multinational corporations with history of ignoring other types of rights>.

They should just be using a decentralized cryptocurrency like Bitcoin but
there's myriad reasons why they wouldn't want to/be able to.

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davidpelayo
Disable Javascript with the DevTools and see that nothing gets properly
rendered. Conclude anything you'd like to share in this thread.

~~~
kgraves
No non-technical person does this ever.

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jfoster
Sounds like PayPal, but owned by Facebook and initially peer to peer payments.
I presume it's initially intended as a method of payment for Facebook
Marketplace.

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DethNinja
Is there an easy way to convert libra to bitcoin? I don’t have objection to
centralised initiatives like Libra so long as people can convert
cryptocurrencies easily.

~~~
znpy
buy bitcoin and pay by libra?

~~~
DethNinja
I mean using decentralised exchanges to convert libra to bitcoin, do their
architecture permit such stuff or is it a totally closed ecosystem? Anyway I
can’t say I’m very interested about libra as I’m not a Facebook user but it
makes sense for their business area.

------
mister_hn
Novi Is a famous brand of Switzerland Chocolate too

~~~
domedefelice
Italian brand of chocolate, not Swiss (
[https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Novi_(azienda)](https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Novi_\(azienda\))
)

~~~
mister_hn
oh yes, true

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znpy
Wasn't Novi the name of a chocolate brand?

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mbesto
> Customers are verified with a government-issued ID to protect their
> accounts. Learn more about security and privacy on Novi.

> Novi Financial, a regulated financial company, is a subsidiary of Facebook,
> Inc. and is headquartered in Menlo Park, California.

That's gonna be a big fat NOPE for me.

~~~
flixic
KYC is unavoidable for financial products.

~~~
mbesto
No shit. That's not the point.

The point is that the world's largest privacy abuser can now directly tie all
of your online habits to your government issued ID.

The implications here are staggering.

~~~
s3r3nity
This isn't a vote of support for FB, but I've said it before and it bears
repeating: you are naive if you think you _can't_ do this today. There are
companies doing this pretty well (ex: DMP's, or "data management platforms.")

~~~
mbesto
Agreed, but DMPs aren't perfect, they aren't considered source of truth, and
are used largely for targeting for advertising. However in this case there can
be serious implications outside of simply advertising and the data integrity
issues with DMPs now begins to lessen.

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madspindel
So how do you add or withdraw money from Novi?

~~~
wmf
The same as Venmo, Paypal, CashApp, etc.

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djstein
while this may not be a product I endorse, that marking page and is beautiful.
Good job marketing + design + frontend engineers who worked on this!

------
foob4r
Zuck: Yeah so if you ever need info about anyone at Harvard

Zuck: Just ask.

Zuck: I have over 4,000 emails, pictures, addresses, SNS

[Redacted Friend's Name]: What? How'd you manage that one?

Zuck: People just submitted it.

Zuck: I don't know why.

Zuck: They "trust me"

Zuck: Dumb fucks.

[https://www.esquire.com/uk/latest-news/a19490586/mark-
zucker...](https://www.esquire.com/uk/latest-news/a19490586/mark-zuckerberg-
called-people-who-handed-over-their-data-dumb-f/)

~~~
s3r3nity
Yes, because I'm sure you're the exact same person you were in high school /
college, and that everything you did 15 years ago will be held as an
unwavering standard of who you are as a person.

/sarcasm

(Nevertheless you might be in hs / college now...but hopefully you understand
the point I'm making.)

~~~
strobeflier
You seem to be suggesting that Zuck has changed, but I have seen no evidence
of that. Have you?

