
Facebook is ruining Instagram - achairapart
https://medium.com/@giuliomichelon/how-mark-zuckerberg-ruined-instagram-9733ad373bdf#.18lwizr1t
======
andreyk
So the point of the post is "Now the timeline order has changed. It's not a
timeline anymore, but it's a filtered and reordered feed. I feel very sad
about that and I want to explain you why." The why in that is "Now Instagram
aims to be the brother of Facebook: a time sucking machine that has to steal
the highest amount of my time to maximise the exposure of his ads. Now it’s
too hard for me follow what’s happening to my friends, and I can’t do it real-
time anymore.".

I don't really think it makes much sense to be so sad about this, since the
whole reason Instagram did this (according to them) is that people were only
seeing 30% of the images on average so it just made sense to try and present
the best 30% up front (explained here
[http://www.nytimes.com/2016/03/16/technology/instagram-
feed....](http://www.nytimes.com/2016/03/16/technology/instagram-
feed.html?_r=1)). And if like me this guy follows few enough people to keep up
with all the photos, then there should be no issue because I can always easily
keep up with only the people I am following and see all their output. Maybe it
is not real time anymore and it is noticeable to this person, but it still
seems to be overstating the case.

And how is this change relevant to try to capture most of your time? It seems
moreso to be about trying to give the best experience possible, confronting a
problem that most people probably friend and follow way too many people to
keep up with. Seems reasonable to me... Not to mention it's very dubious to
claim the call came from Facebook, and not internally from Instagram following
the same direction Facebook and Twitter went over time.

~~~
sp332
It's hard to tell if you've seen all the photos or not when they're re-ordered
on a regular basis.

~~~
sp332
I know it's late but I wanted to add something that's been frustrating me on
Facebook lately, and that is that it's almost impossible to re-find a newish
post that you've seen already. The during algorithm makes you wade through
tons of other posts first, even thigh the one you're looking for used to be
right on top.

------
blakesterz
The closing line:

>> It is stealing me as much time as they can. They are fighting to get my
attention span, only to feed me with more ads. They are just like the
television.

That's an interesting point. Seems like that can be applied to a long list of
sites/apps now (or maybe it's always been like that, not sure now is any
different).

~~~
Odinly
Well its apt that Mark Zuckerberg gets the blame then.

There really should be a weekly game. Top score to the person with the most
items added to the list -

If Mark Zuckerberg was running Wikipedia:

1\. Everybody in the world would need an account to access it.

2\. The most liked parts of a topic, lets say Linear Algebra, would appear
before everything else on the topic.

3\. A "free basics" version of Wikipedia would be made available to those who
can't afford cake.

4\. <please continue>

Next week we play, if Mark Zuckerberg was running Linux.

~~~
Joky
Not sure why focusing on Mark Z. It sounds to me like rather "if Wikipedia was
a business"...

~~~
toomuchtodo
Excellent point! Shall we start the discussion about how some of these
services should be B Corps/non-profits with a governance board? Like
Wikipedia?

------
smt88
This post informed me that Instagram has fixed the problem that made me hate
it and never want to open it (irrelevant/boring photos cluttering my
timeline). The most prolific posters, often also with the lowest-quality
content, would drown out all the more thoughtful posters.

Time to try Instagram again!

~~~
prebrov
May I ask why would you follow most prolific and boring photographers in the
first place?

~~~
spery
Maybe because he uses it like FB, adding friends.

~~~
manyxcxi
> Maybe because he uses it like FB, adding friends

Exactly! I've got PLENTY of friends on FB that don't get followed on
Instagram. There's probably a 20% overlap at max. I keep my follow count low
and start unfollowing anyone or brands that bore or annoy me.

In that way most of my media posts (which I shamefully admit are 90% my kids
being adorable to me only) go to Instagram only or Instagram and shared with
FB as well. I NEVER post directly to FB with media.

I think a lot of people who don't see value in Instagram think of it like they
do Facebook.

~~~
HipstaJules
> I think a lot of people who don't see value in Instagram think of it like
> they do Facebook.

That's exactly the point.

(I'm the author)

------
ttn
This type of stuff makes me wonder when humanity will treat ads just like we
treat cigarettes today.

~~~
dandelany
When ads start killing 30% of the people who look at them.

~~~
wernercd
When an "infection" from an ad can lead to malware, trojans, ransomware,
etc...

At what point does the monetary value of the damages caused by "advertising"
surpass the amount of damages caused by cigs?

Will that amount of damage ever be more than lung cancer and lost lives? Who
knows... but ads aren't just annoying. They are dangerous.

Just ask the hospitals that have had to run at limited capacity due to
infections. (that infection was due to a tainted email... but it could have
easily been from a drive-by-ad-malware... ala 30-after-30 malware:
[http://www.engadget.com/2016/01/08/you-say-advertising-i-
say...](http://www.engadget.com/2016/01/08/you-say-advertising-i-say-block-
that-malware/) ). And it's only a matter of time until one infection causes a
death...

Then expand that to our increasingly connected cars and houses...

~~~
Raphmedia
Ads are malware to the mind.

I don't want to eat fast-food, but they will use shiny pictures, bright
colors, reverse psychology, "everyone else eat burgers" tactics, etc. to make
me want it.

They are little squares of manipulation.

~~~
dave2000
Ah, but not everyone eats fast food, so there must be a way to resist them.

~~~
Raphmedia
Willpower.

Your willpower is low when you are tired or in an advanced state of mind.

Take a look at decision fatigue
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decision_fatigue](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decision_fatigue)

"Decision fatigue can influence irrational impulse purchases at supermarkets.
During a trip to the supermarket, trade-off decisions regarding prices and
promotions can produce decision fatigue, hence by the time the shopper reaches
the cash register, less willpower remains to resist impulse purchases of candy
and sugared items."

We are bombarded with ads, which we discard, but every time we discard one, it
tires us.

~~~
dave2000
When I read that sort of thing i'd like I'm reliving the 1980s, where everyone
had that sort of "they live" (the movie) paranoia that they were being
controlled.

You can easily transcend all of that.

Not the fact that you're being controlled by an elite consisting of rich, well
brought up white people and a media which serves them and each other.

But the day to day annoyances of adverts and supermarket deals etc. If you
read books, listen to music ripped from CDs, watch movies/tvs from
netflix/downloads etc, then you're going to suffer only very slight
interference from ads. Certainly I see no justification for the suggestion
it's "tiring" to "discard" an ad.

If you have to shop in supermakets (and you do not) then it's possible to just
buy sensible stuff; fruit, veg, milk, juice, break, rice etc. You don't need
to wander down the colourful aisles and pay over the odds for this seasons
exciting "as seen on tv" junk foods. It's hard to imagine any self-respecting
HN reading struggling to understand which size/brand of some product is the
cheapest. It's not remotely taxing to do this, and mental activity keeps your
mind fit and staves off dementia. It has no consequence on willpower
whatsoever. In any event, a lot of shops in the UK have no "candy" by the
"cash register" because it annoys parents who have to get their kids to stop
screaming for it.

~~~
Raphmedia
> It's hard to imagine any self-respecting HN reading

Exactly, but most people are not HN readers.

I've added countless ads to websites, added countless trackers, implemented
countless marketing emails. Of course I am aware of what's happening behind
the scene.

Most people are going to be watching TV and be bombarded by ads. They are then
going to go to the supermarket, and be bombarded by packaging. They are going
to listen to radio on the way to work and be bombarded by audio ads, with some
nice billboards on top.

Every day, we are trying harder and harder to customize our ads to be more
effective toward users. It's not paranoia. We have "loyalty" cards that track
all of our users purchases which we analyse and use to send targeted ads. We
are working our best to beat the mind's "firewall" to inject our "malwares"
into the mind of the consumers.

------
iamleppert
Just stop using the app; lots of people I know have already stopped using
Facebook. I don't even have it installed on my phone anymore.

~~~
pmarreck
At least on iPhone, the web app is less resource-hoggy and just as featureful.

Most of the social events I go to are now typically organized via Facebook;
the non-FB people require a separate email which is an extra step that is not
taken 100% of the time.

~~~
Retric
>an extra step that is not taken 100% of the time.

IMO, that's often a feature not a bug.

~~~
dave2000
Yeah, I used to think that way. Thing is, while you're sitting at home feeling
superior because you don't use that horrible mainstream website that all those
terrible peasants are using and would stop using if only they knew how bad it
was and how it's all about the money, your friends are all out there having
fun at events they've organised on facebook and not quite ever got around to
emailing all the bold, independent people who are too good for it.

------
placeybordeaux
I find it strange that they don't simply allow two streams: the reordered via
algorithm and the timeline.

Introduce the new thing as a cool new beta product that people can try and
after a certain amount of time switch it to default, but still allow the old
version. Then wait until a majority switch over and cut off the old version.

~~~
iamdave
Facebook "does" this and I put "does" in quotation marks because even when I
change the newsfeed sort order to "Most Recent" I still see posts I've already
seen from hours ago jumbled in with things happening more recently, and if I
leave the page and come back, or merely hit the refresh button I'm back to
"Most Popular".

Combine that with the ever annoying problem of leaving the page, suddenly
seeing something interesting, hitting the back button and being presented with
an entirely different order of sorting news items forcing me to go digging
through my friend's timeline on their actual page ....

I guess what I'm saying is I don't trust them to not fuck up two streams on
Instagram the same way they've done it on FB: to the point of being completely
useless as a dichotomy.

------
Apocryphon
And here I thought Instagram was an actual case of the acquirer letting the
acquired product be fairly hands off.

Are there _any_ examples of happy acquisitions? Oculus?

~~~
dreaminvm
How do know this is not purely an Instagram decision? If Instagram usage data
demonstrated that most users only looked at 30% of the timeline, then it makes
sense to optimize for the most active/engaging content.

------
lazzlazzlazz
It's not filtered.

It's reordered but not filtered.

If you keep scrolling you will see everything posted that you haven't seen
since the last time you checked.

It's not even bad.

------
colordrops
This is why I stopped using Facebook. The feed became non-deterministic and
unpredictable. It felt manipulative. I don't need a mediated experience,
thanks.

~~~
xufi
Not to mention the constant bombardment of "Trending articles" that you can't
even block even with a good Adblocker (so far as I've tried)

------
completereset
All of these shiny social network websites are there for profit. They play
nice to grow and then they will squeeze as much profit as they can from users.

What did you expect is going to happen? Why would you invest so much effort
and emotion into growing a thing that you can be 100% sure will eventually try
to consume you.

If people want social media that does not feed on them, they have to start
using p2p, decentralized social apps. Not like Diaspora (federated), but truly
p2p, where each user contributes resources and there's no need to support
scalability engineers maintaining state of art datacenters.

[http://twister.net.co/](http://twister.net.co/)
[https://zeronet.io/](https://zeronet.io/)
[https://www.ipfs.com/](https://www.ipfs.com/)
[http://www.synereo.com/](http://www.synereo.com/)
[http://maidsafe.net/](http://maidsafe.net/)

Somewhere there or in something similiar is our holy grail: social networking
by users for users.

------
josh_carterPDX
When you have a product you give away for free, it's always a challenge to
find new and inventive ways to pay for it. Ads are one way so I don't begrudge
FB for tweaking something I don't have to pay for if it means they somehow
make some money on it. I like using it and find it pretty useful. I think it's
just going to impact buyers of ads because they'll likely see their numbers
dip as more people abandon Instagram for something else like Snapchat. Users
are fickle. If you start messing with something they're used to eventually
they'll just find something else to keep their A.D.D. in check.

------
Negative1
The changes are a natural progression towards a curated experience. You may
not like it but I would argue it does not 'ruin' instagram; just makes it a
more controlled experience (which many do prefer).

~~~
teej
But they aren't asking people which one they prefer. Some GM or product
manager somewhere has goals to "increase engagement" which is probably naively
defined as scrolling or clicking more. They need those metrics to go up to
sell more ads.

People's opinion that Instagram is 'ruined' is completely valid. Just because
the 'average' experience ticked up doesn't mean that you're making it better
for everyone. This is a classic case of managing to the average. The desires
of the people who are most passionate about Instagram are being ignored in
lieu of hitting quarterly numbers.

This is why it's important to deeply understand your users qualitatively as
well as quantitatively. You can't A/B test your way to a great product.

------
axelfreeman
This algo will show photos with more likes on top. I wanna see photos from
people and not this hashtagspam pushed crap in my timeline. Instagram fails at
catching spam all the time. More likes = more views = more likes. The same
problem facebook has right now. I wanna see pics of my follower and not only
the "pages" with photographic skills + photoshop + hashtagspam.

It's getting less social and more like magazine-subscription of channels.

------
dforrestwilson
I agree that FB and Instagram have gone downhill as they ramped advertising,
but isn't that a well-understood part of the story?

My solution is to use them less.

~~~
HipstaJules
> My solution is to use them less.

Good point. Probably my problem (I'm the author) was to get too attached to
the Medium. I idealized it.

------
jinushaun
Facebook's algorithmic news feed is why my feed is full of politics, when if I
actually visited people's profile pages individually, that's not really the
case. There are all these non-political posts that just don't show up in my
feed.

Real time is better. Don't guess what I would prefer to see. Let me filter it
myself.

------
colmvp
How is this Zuckerberg's fault? Where was the Product and Design leads on this
implementation? I see everyone liking posts from them on Medium but suddenly
they are absolved from changes that irk people?

~~~
01Michael10
I guess you are not familiar with the phase "The buck stops here" popularized
by Harry S. Truman.

------
wodenokoto
So what is chronological order anyway? What time stamp do we order by? Is it
when it was posted? The last comment? The last like/reaction? The last
interaction by someone in our network?

~~~
jsprogrammer
The last content determined to be most likely to make the most money by
displaying to you.

------
nikolay
Never got into Instagram, never got why Facebook bought it, never got why
would people use it, and not Google Photos, Flickr, Facebook Photos, or the
million others... Oh, filters, right!

------
huangwei_chang
I guess the same thing (or other things you don't like) won't happen if IG is
still an independent company.

------
paulpauper
yyaawwn people also thought Facebook was ruined when they stopped only
accepting edu emails

------
ProAm
When you alter the timeline, it's no longer a social network.

------
kin
I'm really tired of reading rants and opinions on Medium.

In any case it sounds like if there's a huge drop-off of users Instagram can
very easily address the issue by setting a sort by option in the settings.

~~~
paulpauper
tired of it too . just another platform for tumrblr people who are grownup to
channel their narcissism. And most of the articles are of low quality, with
unnecessarily large font and stupid pictures that makes me feel like I'm in
5th grade again.

~~~
awesomerobot
I'd argue that hackernews uses a font that's too small and doesn't have enough
images — but I think your other criticisms are spot on.

------
fordarnold
Its all about the money.

------
meeper16
Copying & Pasting code is not innovation. It worked when they copied and
pasted myspace but that will eventually stop working for facebook.

~~~
phaed
None of that code as copy/pasted.

