
1980s computer controls Grand Rapids Public School heat and AC - ScottWRobinson
http://woodtv.com/2015/06/11/1980s-computer-controls-grps-heat-and-ac/
======
bane
I remember a conversation I had with a friend's father, an HVAC engineer. He
brought home a control board one-time, showed me the sensor inputs and control
outputs. I don't remember how many there were, but let's say a dozen of each.

He described how a sensor in would connect to this spot and feed the system
temperatures from a sensor in some remote part of the building. The control
output would then go to the appropriate HVAC system and turn on/off A/C, heat
or whatever to get the temperature to what it needed to be at.

The system would spider out around the building with these sensors and
regulate the building's temperature.

At the heart of the board (which looked like a PC motherboard) was the CPU, a
z80, already hilariously ancient when he showed this to me. So I asked him
"why not use a more modern CPU?"

He responded, "why? This z80 can control an office building's entire HVAC
system, and poll each sensor 200 times a second, how many times per second do
you need? Temperature in a zone doesn't change that fast."

It was my introduction to the concept of "Lateral Thinking with Withered
Technology"
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gunpei_Yokoi#Lateral_Thinking_...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gunpei_Yokoi#Lateral_Thinking_with_Withered_Technology)

~~~
ChuckMcM
This is so true, and even today with new designs you end up with overkill. A
Cortex M0 (32 bit ARM system) with 128K of flash and 64K of RAM is 75 cents in
quantity. That means the processor complex is essentially "free" with respect
to the cost of the other bits (sensors, actuators, communication over
distance). The risk is that with all that "extra power" the programmer decides
to use it creatively for something like "A built in web server to show you
status of everything" and that "feature" requires you connect it to the wider
network, and that "webserver" never gets patched, and now you have an HVAC
system which becomes the exploit vector to get into a much bigger
facility/network.

All because designing in a "limited" computer didn't make economic sense, and
programmers couldn't help but use the extra CPU capacity that was available.

That is what makes IoT a challenge / bad-idea to a lot of people.

~~~
TeMPOraL
I've noticed the opposite thing. Most of the hardware around is built on the
weakest specs that still let the thing run. Those various 10 cent savings on
flash and μC tend to add up quickly when you go into mass production.

But the primary problem, which is not limited to but obviously visible in IoT,
is that companies ask themselves "what sells?" instead of "what is good and
useful?". All that crap that is being created, with useless "features" that
introduce security holes foster the fragmentation of the ecosystem, is pushed
because someone out there figures out that people will buy it. But almost no
one understands the implications of all these "features" so the buying
decision they make is usually wrong and stupid.

I wish someone cut out sales people from the design process. You should be
able to get designers and engineers together, having them ask themselves what
would be an optimal, actually useful
smartwatch/smartfridge/smarttoilet/whatever and how to build it, and _then_
tell sales people to figure out how to sell it. But no optimizing for better
sellability.

~~~
ChuckMcM
I too have seen the intense penny pinching, here in California the soda
bottler removed one thread from the tops of plastic bottles, it saves probably
a fraction of a cent in plastic, but makes the detached retaining ring for the
cap rub on your lips when drinking. That makes it uncomfortable to sip from
those bottles. Such a huge price to pay in user dissatisfaction for such a
small savings.

Can't go this far though :

    
    
       > I wish someone cut out sales people from the design 
       > process. ... no optimizing for better sellability.
    

In my experience, actually doing things this way leads to less economic
success for the product and eventually it gets outsold by a competitor without
those restraints. And At FreeGate I told sales people "you have to sell what
we have, not what we don't have" and still had them come back with complaints
about how the competitor could install their box in a data center etc etc. Not
a productive conversation (or fun for that matter).

There does seem to be a minimally required feature set for selling things
these days. "High Quality" isn't the compelling feature it once was.

~~~
justizin
There's some penny pinching, for sure - I had a coworker whose brother is on
the iPhone hardware team and they have a lot of trouble with samples coming
back from manufacturing with the wrong resistor here or a missing capacitor
there to save a few bucks, because the factory sees it as overengineering, but
doesn't understand the purpose it's built for.

That said, relying on an older processor may actually not save money. Sure,
there's a premium on the absolute newest processor, but in general what's
cheapest is what is most mass produced Right Now(tm).

I think a z80 on something like this was likely similar to the reasons that
NASA control systems typically use the most reliable hardware they can, which
means something that has been in use for many years.

For HVAC, maybe a little of each, but also the software may have been written
to the z80, and if you change that out, you have to do all the testing you'd
have to do if you built a new machine.

I often think back on this old chat I had with my grandfather, where he kind
of tilted his head at something I was explaining about 90s tech and said
something like:

    
    
       "Interesting.  In my day, we programmed the software to the hardware, it kind of seems like now you all are programming the hardware to the software."

~~~
quesera
> I had a coworker whose brother is on the iPhone hardware team and they have
> a lot of trouble with samples coming back from manufacturing with the wrong
> resistor here or a missing capacitor there to save a few bucks, because the
> factory sees it as overengineering, but doesn't understand the purpose it's
> built for.

I find that story utterly implausible.

The day Foxconn makes unapproved changes to Apple designs is the day
that...well, never.

------
dsr_
If your first thought is that $2M to replace an Amiga is ridiculous, stop.

They wouldn't be replacing the Amiga for $2M. They'll be replacing a 19 site
remote HVAC control system, certainly including new radio systems, local
controllers, and the central controller. They will want something with a
warranty and a service contract for the next 20-30 years.

~~~
monochromatic
What's wrong with just using thermostats in each building? This seems way
over-engineered.

~~~
da_chicken
The same reason you don't put a space heater and window AC in every room.
Because it's inefficient, ineffective, and archaic.

~~~
protomyth
Yep, you want the whole thing to act like a system not a bunch of parts.
Energy savings and a comfortable environment really depends on this. A poorly
setup system can be a nightmare for the maintenance staff.

~~~
seanp2k2
And so this is why, in our office with a thermostat and ducts in every room,
it's typically freezing in 1/3rd of the conference rooms, another 1/3 are way
too hot, and there is zero meaningful control using the thermostats in the
rooms over this?

Not saying it's not a good idea, just saying that in reality I've seen these
systems work very poorly together in most office environments I've been in.

~~~
protomyth
Well, if you have thermostats in every room, I would imagine that it would be
impossible to get a consistent temperature. All the commands and one system to
sort it out and move air cannot be good.

If I ever teach a CompSci again, I would think about making a climate
controller a problem set. My first choice is a storage building controller,
but this would be interesting.

------
kens
The record for obsolete computing probably goes to Sparkler Filters, which
still uses an IBM 402 tabulator from 1948 for their accounting. This machine
reads information from punch cards, adds it up, and prints reports. That
wouldn't be too bad, except this tabulator is before the vacuum tube
generation. It is electromechanical, using mechanical counter wheels for
addition.

It is programmed by plugging dozens of wires into a control panel; each wire
indicates something like this card column goes to this adder and that printer
column. To change the program, you pull out the panel and replace it with a
different panel. The "software library" consists of shelves of panels wired up
for each task.

This system actually surprisingly sophisticated considering the lack of
technology. For instance, there's a mechanical mechanism to suppress leading
zeros in numbers. It can print text as well as numbers and supports three
levels of subtotals as well as conditionals. It It's also fairly fast,
processing 150 cards per minute.

Links:
[http://www.pcworld.com/article/249951/if_it_aint_broke_dont_...](http://www.pcworld.com/article/249951/if_it_aint_broke_dont_fix_it_ancient_computers_in_use_today.html)
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_402](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_402)
[http://bitsavers.informatik.uni-
stuttgart.de/pdf/ibm/punched...](http://bitsavers.informatik.uni-
stuttgart.de/pdf/ibm/punchedCard/AccountingMachine/224-1614-13_402-403-419.pdf)

------
rmxt
This legacy system issue doesn't just happen to remote/low budget operations
either. While they've now moved to emulating the system on what are presumably
VMs, Columbia University uses what amounts to a 40 year old system to post
final grades to the student administration portal. Official transcript grades
are updated once daily, at some time in the wee hours of the morning. From a
Columbia CS professor:

"Columbia processes grades by using a system that was first released in 1972.
In order to have kept it running for more than 40 years, it has consistently
run special-purpose emulators that make its otherwise state-of-the-art systems
think that they are stuck in the 70s and using an operating system called
“CP/CMS”:

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VM_(operating_system)](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VM_\(operating_system\))

The grading system is written in a programming language called “Focus,” which
in 1975 was one of the very first database languages developed and released:

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FOCUS](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FOCUS)

But because of this, grades are processed only once per day, in a batch job
that runs at about midnight every night. I am not making this up.

The university, recognizing that it is time for it to upgrade, does have plans
for replacing the grading system. The upgrade is scheduled for the year 2020.
I am not making this up either."

[http://bwog.com/2014/01/06/why-your-grades-take-so-long-
to-s...](http://bwog.com/2014/01/06/why-your-grades-take-so-long-to-show-up/)

I imagine these schools will eventually move to something similar: an emulated
system with specialized hardware to interface with the mechanical equipment.

~~~
eli
Many universities have systems like that. Banks too. Probably true of many
early adopters: they built systems that worked and didn't rewrite them simply
for the sake of having something new.

~~~
ams6110
Most of my credit cards will not update the balance immediately after I make a
payment. It takes a day (sometimes more, depending on timing). Clearly batch
processes are involved.

There's nothing wrong with batch processes. They are often easier to reason
about than having a system where everything can change in real time.

Sometimes you want real time. Sometimes (many times) a daily batch is just
fine.

~~~
mixmastamyk
Also gives you a chance to change your mind, say to cancel a pending bank
transaction in the evening.

~~~
icebraining
You can have delays for that purpose in real-time systems too. And they'd
actually be consistent, instead of having variable lengths to cancel the
transaction.

------
roneesh
'Old code' !== 'Bad Code'

I would say that's an assumption we as developers need to teach society, but
we should really work on teaching it to ourselves first. I can't tell you how
many times I've heard "We should just start over" rather than try and
understand what we have.

~~~
JustSomeNobody
This. Nobody today would even consider trying to design something so simple it
could last three decades. And certainly nobody would want to support it.
Everyone wants shiny and new...

~~~
geon
Some arduinos with an ethernet shield and a super simple web backend?

~~~
sliverstorm
Ethernet is great, but thirty years from now it and/or RJ-45 might sound just
as antiquated.

~~~
teacup50
Doubt it; 10Base-T is 26 years old, and still works with today's modern
10Gbase-T NICs.

There will be backwards compatibility options for an awfully long time.

------
notvplez
Was hoping it would be an Amiga, and wasn't disappointed. Though it seems like
this particular system is ripe for replacement because of the issues
mentioned, I have a lot of respect for staying with old soft- and hardware
instead of chasing something new and shiny when the old system still gets the
job done.

A few years back a seller came to my workplace to ask if we wanted to
advertise at our local cinema. We didn't, but I had a chat with the guy and
was pleasantly surprised to discover that he was still creating and showing
the ads using an A1200 with a genlock card running Scala (25 years old this
year, real popular in the nineties with cable companies and broadcasters as
big as CNN and BBC). Reason for not upgrading? "It still works great." Put a
big smile on my face for the rest of the day.

~~~
HeyLaughingBoy
I'm a bit confused: are you saying that the system was running Scala for 25
years? Thought Scala was just a few years ago.

And was the genlock card a Video Toaster by any chance?

~~~
notvplez
The first version of Scala was released in 1990 if I'm not mistaken, he
probably used a later version as he was using a A1200 which had the AGA-
chipset that improved graphics considerably. He'd been using it "for about
twenty years", and as this was two or three years ago and the A1200 was
released in 1992 he probably had a 22 year run on the same hardware and
software. He didn't specify the card he used, but I think it's safe to say it
was the Video Toaster given its popularity at the time.

------
chestervonwinch
> A Kentwood High School student programmed it when it was installed in the
> 1980s. Whenever the district has a problem with it, they go back to the
> original programmer who still lives in the area.

Now that's job security!

~~~
SmellyGeekBoy
I wonder what the hourly rate is ;)

------
tacone
30 years of service? Sounds like a success story.

~~~
0xdeadbeefbabe
Especially in light of the cost of "updating" it. I realize it's not the $2M
to replace an amiga.

------
downandout
Back when I was in high school, I decided it would be cool to try to hack into
the school computer system. I grabbed the white pages, figured out the range
of numbers belonging to the school, and fired up my demon dialer.

Sadly, the only system that picked up was an HVAC control computer with no
authentication. Apparently they figured that no one would find the number.
After some experimentation, I was able to change the temperature in specific
buildings where I went to class, which was neat for about a day. Anyway, this
article makes me wonder if that system is still online.

------
NamTaf
My company, an ASX30 corporation, still runs its operations through an
emulated IBM 3270 terminal sitting on top of a DB2 v8 mainframe with literally
thousands of tables in it. 4 character transaction codes and ctrl as 'enter
command' for all!

We're currently developing a replacement SAP solution. I'm yet to decide which
is more obtuse.

edit: The SAP solution was spurred not because the old system was breaking but
rather that when the COO asked for some daily reports and the IT
propellerheads replied that the data crunching to generate said 24 hour
reports took more than 24 hours to run.

------
chavesn
How common are remote radio controllers in historical or modern systems?

I think the most interesting part of this article is the use of radio for a
wide-area network, even if it only got a passing mention in the article.

Some questions I'd love to know: What kind of protocol was used? Are computer
uses of walkie-talkie radio bands allowed by the FCC? How do the receivers
work? If they don't run on their own microprocessor, how were they designed?

~~~
ChickeNES
Almost certainly Packet Radio:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Packet_radio](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Packet_radio),
probably on the amateur band:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AMPRNet](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AMPRNet)

~~~
kw71
This application should not be allowed in Amateur Radio service, because it's
being used as part of a business or government operation.

The piece of spectrum this system actually uses, since it is shared with their
maintenance radio fleet, is definitely not part of any amateur service
allocation ("band")

The term 'packet radio' also implies (to me anyway) certain kinds of
applications and messages, which don't apply to a system like this. Anyway, if
there was some kind of IP or other routable protocol on the air here, that
would be overdoing it. The messages probably look more like what you'd find on
a multidrop serial bus, with elements including source and destination
address, length, payload, checksum. A bunch of FSK modems working on the same
radio channel is not much different to a multidrop serial bus.

------
flurpitude
Pedantic, but if it's an Amiga 2000 (which it appears to be from the video)
then this can't have been running since 1985, as the Amiga 2000 was released
in 1987. But the guy does say the computer came from eBay, so perhaps this is
a replacement for their original Amiga.

~~~
abruzzi
I'm not sure how the RF interface works, but it it uses a zorro card, the
A2000 would be the first computer that could run it. If it used serial, the
even a A1000 would be a possible system.

------
damoncali
When I worked on the Hubble Space Telescope in the late 90's I kept hearing
the electrical guys talking about the new computer we were going to install.
They called it simply, "the 486". I one day joked that I had had a 486 a few
years ago in college and maybe they could use that and save some bucks. And
they told me it was the same thing - literally an intel 486 processor. They
said that the design happened to be very resistant to radiation, and met their
purposes very well.

I haven't really kept up on it since, but I believe it's still running a
humble 486. Granted, the rest of the machine isn't much like my old Dell, but
I always found that interesting.

~~~
drzaiusapelord
Yep, that radiation hardened 486 was used quite a bit. I believe it was used
for the Space Shuttle as well.

The Mars rovers have moved to a more efficient PowerPC platform, but its still
old tech. Radiation hardening CPUs isn't cheap and the processing requirements
for what these projects do isn't high (its more sane to just send the data to
NASA and have terrestrial computers do all the heavy lifting), not to mention
you don't run a bloated desktop OS on these things. A minimalist VxWorks RTOS
is typically used.

Price? The RAD750 on the Curiosity Rover starts at about a quarter million
dollars.

~~~
emp
The Space Shuttle should be so lucky - 8086 (though I read 80386 for a cockpit
upgrade). First flight 1981, predating the 486 (1989). It's interesting, NASA
was raiding all sorts of old machinery to keep in stock of 8086s.

------
organsnyder
The GRPS director of communications just gave a presentation on the bond
proposal last night at our neighborhood association meeting. Like any urban
district, GRPS has faced a very challenging few decades with declining
enrollment, competition from charters and suburban districts, and a largely
impoverished student population. They've made huge strides over the past few
years, since the current superintendent took over in 2012. It's been really
exciting to watch.

At the presentation, the spokesman stressed that the previous bond was
strictly to shore things up—anything that could be delayed, was. I can see
that he wasn't kidding.

------
sharjeel
And here I am reading this article in 2015, with top of the page broken saying
"Please install the latest Adobe Flash Player Plugin to watch this content."

------
tempodox
Amiga? That had a Motorola 68000 CPU, if I remember correctly.

I knew when I saw the MC68k the first time that it had the Schwartz to rule
them all — and decades later it's still true :)

~~~
wumbernang
I thought that. Then living in the UK our first 32-bit ARM personal computers
turned up in 1987. They even ran rings around high end Unix kit. And here I am
in 2015 typing this on a 32-bit ARM A7...

------
gambiting
Polish Railways(state owned) had an Odra 1305 machine, manufactured in 1973,
still operating on one of their stations until 2010. It's fascinating really.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Odra_(computer)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Odra_\(computer\))

------
noonespecial
_A 30-year-old computer that has run day and night for decades..._

I know its a "ha-ha look at that antique" piece but seriously, how many
computers could you buy at BigBox store today that will run for 30 years non-
stop? The Amiga was just an off the shelf consumer PC.

------
pacofvf
I wonder how many software from the 70s and 80s in not so famous languages are
lost forever. And if is there an effort to preserve such works?

~~~
HeyLaughingBoy
What for?

~~~
vidarh
History, for starters.

------
castratikron
And PDP-11s still run nuclear plants.

~~~
JoeAltmaier
Ah! PDP-11! I mis-spent my youth on one. I remember seeing one standing out in
the rain in Los Alamos at an electronics surplus store. Didn't even rate
getting inside the building under cover. Now that's melancholy.

------
jsulak
See also:
[http://www.chron.com/news/article/xx-4459714.php](http://www.chron.com/news/article/xx-4459714.php)

------
mootothemax
"A new, more current system would cost between $1.5 and 2 million."

How on earth! And where can I apply?

~~~
brudgers
The proposal wouldn't be for replacing a computer and a 1200buad modem. It's
for replacing a distributed HVAC control system at 19 locations. If you're
doing that, you're going to want to bring the system up to current standards
and that includes things like commissioning [1] the system for energy
performance and replacing controls and logic at both ends...or maybe going
away from a hub and spoke architecture. And it all comes with RFP's for
design, public bids, performance bonds, insurance, warranties and all sorts of
things that grandma's Wordpress site doesn't typically require.

[edit] To put it in perspective, getting the controls right dwarfs energy use.
Let's call the cost $1.9 million and the number of sites 19 giving a cost per
site of $100,000. Let's assume that the energy cost per site is $100,000/month
and that the controls are capable of +10%. That puts the payback period at 10
months, so let's call it a year. Even if the efficiency improvement is only
1%, the payback period is well before the 30 year life cycle of the building
(which not by coincidence matches the 30 year maturity of typical bonds and
the bond financed control system built around an Amiga).

~~~
stickfigure
$100k per month per site for energy? That number seems high to me, but I can't
seem to find a link suggesting for/otherwise. Is that really what schools pay?

~~~
krschultz
Doesn't seem high to me. I recall that my school district replaced the HVAC
system while I was in high school and the ROI paid for the new multimillion
dollar system in something like 5 years.

[http://www.schoolenergysaving.com/schoolEnergyFacts.php](http://www.schoolenergysaving.com/schoolEnergyFacts.php)

"A mid-sized school district with 800,000 square feet of space pays more than
$1M annually for energy."

"Space heating, cooling, and lighting together account for nearly 70% of
school total energy use."

~~~
stickfigure
That 800,000 sq ft is for an entire district. With a little searching, I found
that Saline High School is the single largest school in Michigan at 480,000 sq
ft. Most large schools seem to be in the low hundreds of thousands.

So the $100k/mo figure is probably high by a few factors - maybe an order of
magnitude at most.

------
kybernetyk
If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

~~~
kogepathic
> The only problem is that the computer operates on the same frequency as some
> of the walkie-talkies used by the maintenance department.

It's awesome that it's been functional for this long, but given the press
attention I hope they don't receive unwanted attention given that this system
was implemented in the 1980s, before computer security was as large an issue
as it has become.[1]

With the amount of publicity this article has generated, I bet someone with an
SDR is going to drive over and analyze the RF signals, and then hijack the
HVAC systems for the lulz.

[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Notable_computer_viruses_and_w...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Notable_computer_viruses_and_worms)

~~~
JoeAltmaier
Except its in Michigan.

~~~
ehntoo
As a Grand Rapids resident who knows quite well how to use a SDR, I'm going to
choose a positive interpretation of this comment and assume you're referring
to the phenomena of "West Michigan nice", where hacking a public system for
lulz would be absolutely unconscionable.

That being said, I'm actually rather tempted to at least figure out what the
air interface is. The article mentions a 1200 baud modem - does a standard
UHF/VHF voice channel have enough bandwidth to run PSK/FSK V.22 or V.23?
That'd be quite a hack.

~~~
JoeAltmaier
I meant that its far the heck away from everywhere and the population is low.
Thus, a low incidence of griefers of any kind. But your take is good too.

~~~
da_chicken
Two hours from both Detroit and Chicago isn't far. A city of 180,000 isn't
low; it's the largest city in the state behind Detroit.

~~~
JoeAltmaier
And hey! In a list of US states by population, Michigan is #10! Who knew?!

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_and_territ...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_and_territories_by_population)

~~~
jessaustin
Anyone who has ever been there? I guess unless you flew directly into UP...
b^)

~~~
organsnyder
Is there an airport up there?

------
nickbauman
There is at least one Amiga emulator.
[http://www.winuae.net/](http://www.winuae.net/)

~~~
Nelson69
What's the realistic life expectancy of modern hardware?

I ran a Ras. Pi system for monitoring my sprinklers and such but after about 9
months it has had some funkiness, I suspect power related and then the flash
has had a couple little glitches. I couldn't see it lasting 5 years. I have an
odroid-c1 that seems to be more robust in terms of power and such (it has a
dedicated transformer, not some cheap USB that seems to "work") I do worry
about the flash crapping out... Although if the policy is to burn a few
flashes and just keep some spares, you should have quick recovery.

Maybe some good server grade hardware, in a data center, you can expect some
decent life.

~~~
HeyLaughingBoy
Most embedded system failures are due to power and I/O.

If you have robust power supplies from a reputable manufacturer (I like
TDK/Lambda) with good filtering on the input (maybe external powerline filter
modules), and you protect your external inputs and outputs, then the next
thing to worry about is flash lifetime which should be measured in decades if
you're not writing to it.

Problem with a Rasp Pi/Beaglebone is that it's running Linux and there are
likely disk writes occurring, so your lifetime drops. If you can both limit
disk writes and get long lifetime SSDs, I don't see why it shouldn't last at
least 10 years.

------
bencollier49
"That's probably because he wasn't sick. He was skipping school. Wake up and
smell the coffee, Mrs. Bueller. It's a fool's paradise. He is just leading you
down the primrose path.... I've got it right here in front of me. He has
missed nine days...." eight, seven, six..

------
relaxitup
At the end of the TV news bit, the GRPS Maintenance Supervisor said something
to the effect of "if we had to replace it tomorrow, we would be looking on
ebay.. which is where this one came from.." This doesn't make sense if the
Amiga has been running for 30 years and was purchased in the 80s. Perhaps he
meant a failed part or accessory they had purchased that had failed.

~~~
spiritplumber
I don't know, Amigas are tough little critters. Part of it is that they're
designed to load most of the OS in RAM and keep it there, so there are very
few moving parts.

------
spiritplumber
Why am I not surprised that it's an Amiga?

I did a bit of work at NASA-AMES and they were just getting rid of Amiga 1000s
used for video compositing.

------
ekianjo
Wow, an Amiga still running 30 years later, 24/7! That's solid hardware. As a
former Amiga owner, I find this impressive.

~~~
vidarh
There are still several forums full of current Amiga users [1] [2] [3] [4]
being the most prominent English language ones. The most amazing thing is that
there is still new hardware expansion being designed and manufactured for the
original machines...

[1] [http://www.amiga.org](http://www.amiga.org)

[2] [http://www.amigaworld.net](http://www.amigaworld.net)

[3] [http://www.amigans.net](http://www.amigans.net)

[4] [http://eab.abime.net/](http://eab.abime.net/)

------
umanwizard
Seattle's University Bridge was raised and lowered by an early-80s Compaq
until recently.

[http://blogs.seattletimes.com/today/2014/03/seattles-
univers...](http://blogs.seattletimes.com/today/2014/03/seattles-university-
bridge-undergoing-a-reboot/)

------
ape4
There is nothing bad about a computer system lasting 30 years. If its the
right kinds of system. Desktop computers like this one were never made for
this kind of application.

------
webart
So from now they don't have to worry about viruses.

------
johntaitorg
I thought this was going to be about a C64. You'd have to POKE it to switch
the heating on.

It. Just. Works. though - they should never upgrade.

------
teebot
Michigan hipsters

~~~
organsnyder
The GRPS headquarters is dangerously close to Eastown.

------
brudgers
A successful application of agile methodology despite the term having been yet
to be invented.

------
anocendi
Hackerman exists afterall!

------
stormen
Well, at least they don't have to worry about viruses.

~~~
romland
Virii were mostly spread over floppy (boot block or trojan) back then. While I
agree that it's very unlikely that this system will get infected, don't think
that times were better back then :)

[http://www.teyko.com/View.aspx?id=346&name=Saddam+Virus](http://www.teyko.com/View.aspx?id=346&name=Saddam+Virus)

...which was a rather brilliant little thing, but a personal hatred as it
messed up many a .s files (.s stood for "source code" or "Seka", I guess).

~~~
to3m
Obligatory nitpick regarding the plural of "virus":
[http://linuxmafia.com/~rick/faq/plural-of-
virus.html](http://linuxmafia.com/~rick/faq/plural-of-virus.html)

~~~
qrmn
Richard Karsmakers used "virii" to describe a plural of computer virus in the
16-bit era, largely on the basis that it was shorter. It isn't correct Latin,
but it _is_ a VX scene thing, so is absolutely correct in this context.

------
spacecadet
1980's computers control most of manufacturing today.

------
zuron7
"Don't fix what's not broken."

------
frik
Many companies run on SAP R/3 ABAP (1983) code or even still SAP R/2 ASM code.
The ABAP code syntax is somewhat similar to COBOL:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ABAP](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ABAP) . And
many banks still use PL/1 (1964) or COBOL (1959):
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PL/I](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PL/I) and
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COBOL](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COBOL) .
And Fortran (1957) has still the best optimized compilers, surpassing often
even C compilers:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fortran](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fortran)

~~~
_JamesA_
Don't forget about RPG/II/III/IV/LE/... [1][2].

[1]:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_RPG](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_RPG)

[2]: [https://stackoverflow.com/questions/tagged/ibm-
midrange](https://stackoverflow.com/questions/tagged/ibm-midrange)

------
williesleg
I'll build the replacement for $800k

------
jrochkind1
That it would cost 1.2 million to replace something that was probably done
for, oh, $20K in (say) 1980... says something about where we've gone.

For reference, 1.2 million in 2014 dollars is around $418K in 1980 dollars.

------
invisible_dust
I'm pretty sure they could buy a $50 laptop off craigslist instead of a 1.5-2
million dollar systems upgrade. These are the morons teaching children.

~~~
Jtsummers
They aren't replacing a computer. They're replacing a (at this point) hard to
maintain system for controlling their HVAC system and other aspects of their
HVAC system. For 19 schools, this seems cheap to me. More modern HVAC and HVAC
controls will also result in reduced energy costs saving the district money
further down the line.

