
Nest, the company, died at Google I/O 2019 - redm
https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2019/05/nest-the-company-died-at-google-io-2019/
======
dustinmoris
Smart people don't buy smart home devices.

My relatively poor grandparents and my slightly less poor parents had a hard
working life, but none of them had to sleep in a dark cold room because the
switch to turn the lights on or the heating stopped working. Ever. This
problem has been solved by other people many many years ago.

Last month I watched a documentary where a billionaire was showing of his
multi million mansion and when he wanted to show the camera team his 100k home
cinema room they couldn't see anything because his smart lighting system was
stuck in an update loop and nobody had a clue how to fix it. In the interview
he said it's not a big deal because he doesn't like to have the lights on when
watching a movie anyway. L.O.L.

If I had a 100k cinema room then it would be certainly be a big deal to me if
I can't even see where the heck I'm walking.

In my entire life I never thought "damn, how nice would it be if I could turn
on the lights in my bedroom from downstairs on my phone". It's just not a
problem which I think people have, but somehow the consumer industry has
convinced so many fools to buy cheaply fabricated, badly secured, even worse
programmed and often not long supported smart home devices which add
absolutely no benefit to anyone's everyday life and cause lots of problems.

By the time I find my phone lying around in my lounge, unlock it through Face
ID or finger touch, open up the home app, find the home device which I want to
control, then make whatever change I wanted to do I am much faster to just get
my arse up from the couch, walk over and turn it on/off with a normal hand
movement. On the way I can also grab a beer from the fridge and then continue
watching the telly and laugh about some fools who spent 100k on a home cinema
without lights.

~~~
rhacker
This is the exact kind of comment that would make it to the top because it
just empowered everyone that DOESN'T have one such system. It's filled with
finger pointing. Most of the replies basically point out yeah, I hate IoT
lights, but this use case is good... It's not genuine to dismiss the entire
enchilada because YOU don't have it. In 5 years when all the crap is worked
out and you eventually buy a system with extra security at your door or
backyard, or a something to that effect I'd like you to come back and admit
it.

~~~
AlexandrB
> In 5 years when all the crap is worked out and you eventually buy a system
> with extra security at your door or backyard, or a something to that effect
> I'd like you to come back and admit it.

I heard this same song and dance 5 years ago. The problems with the "IoT"
market are foundational. Most IoT devices are not designed to be used for
extended periods without internet access and a continuous stream of updates.
The former means that, in general, they are only as reliable as your internet
connection (including that crappy modem/router the ISP gave you). The latter
means that unlike traditional home hardware, once you install "smart" devices
you're at the mercy of the business plans of the vendor. So even if you get
something set up that works acceptably, it will last 5 years tops (see Nest)
before the vendor's priorities change.

Finally to address the "extra security" comment. Security from _what_? The
developed world is objectively safer than ever, why would I invest in
"solutions" to problems invented out of whole cloth? The paranoia of people
installing cameras all over their own home (often cameras whose footage they
have no real control over) astounds me. We're more mistrustful of our own
neighbours than the companies that are actually exploiting our privacy and
manipulating us psychologically for profit.

~~~
smbullet
Not all of us live in safe neighborhoods like yourself.

~~~
bradlys
It's not even a matter of "safe". I live in a neighborhood that is seen as
very safe. Yet, we had a burglary two houses down not too long ago. And they
happen frequently enough to myself. I've had plenty stolen. Without a camera,
there's ~0% chance of anyone being caught.

I ended up buying a camera for peace of mind and for checking in on my place
to see who's entering my residence area. Sometimes it's genuinely helpful.

~~~
stephenr
> Without a camera, there's ~0% chance of anyone being caught.

If you're only interested in recording what happened (as evidence) an IP
camera can run on PoE to a laptop or mini-pc on a UPS, and record for as long
as you want, even in the case of a power outage if you include a UPS (an old
laptop works well in this case - you can potentially just run the PoE
switch/injector on the UPS and let the laptop run on its battery).

No internet connection required. No "service" to stop working. No "API" to
become deprecated.

~~~
bradlys
But then they can also steal the laptop or mini-pc that is recording. It's
also a PITA to setup and manage yourself. I'd rather pay the $50/yr that I do
and just have someone else do it. I'm done with the bradlys-as-a-service
thing. It'd be another thing adding heat to my living environment as well.

It's been useful for other things like checking in on. Where/when packages are
delivered, when the landlord showed up, when a neighbor came over to tell us
something but we didn't hear them knock on the door, finding out my smoke
alarm was going off for no apparent reason, etc.

~~~
rustyhodge
They can also cut the copper/fiber/coax coming into your house. If the
NVR/whatever recording your video isn't in a super obvious place it will take
a thief longer to find that then it would be for them to clip your connection
to the net.

------
zelly
We are all used to SaaS randomly getting obsoleted, but when you buy a
physical device you kind of expect to own it forever. But no, cloud and IoT
means even your physical stuff are SaaS products. Just stop buying the trash.

~~~
nine_k
Can't help but quote: «“the "Internet of Things" won't work until the "Local
Area Network of Things" works», seen here on HN [1].

There's significantly less money in it, though, and more hassle. It's not
going to become popular enough until people get burned enough with vendors
going out of business, or just stopping support, and making their convenient
$199 gadgets obsolete.

In a sense, a large company like Nest pulling his off is a good thing: it
sends the signal.

[1]:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15721911#15726960](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15721911#15726960)

~~~
donatj
LIFX bulbs work without the need to connect to the internet. They have a LAN
protocol that's pretty easy to use.

~~~
humblebee
I believe Philips Hue also does this correctly. I don't own any of the Hue
products, last I looked (a few years ago) they had an open API. Currently it
looks like you have to sign up for a developer account, I don't know if this
is purely for email marketing or if they have know restricted API access. The
downside to Hue was always the bridge, which is what exposed the http API.

LIFX looks nice though. The UDP Lan protocol is really neat, and the
documentation is better than I remember of Philips Hue.

~~~
strange_quark
I have a Hue setup, and you only need to signup for a developer account to use
their cloud API. If you're on your local network, the bridge has a REST API
exposed and you can just start issuing requests to it without any signing up
for anything.

------
stirkac
This is why I would never invest too much into Smart Home. While my phone may
be expected to last for a few years only, I don't want my house deprecated
because of a takeover/bankruptcy of a company.

~~~
erinnh
I definitely would invest into Smart Home, but only if I can control it 100%
from the server in my basement without the appliance having any internet
access at all.

All my IoT devices are in a wifi without any internet access.

~~~
benbristow
Not really an 'internet' of things then is it?

More like 'WLoT' (Wireless LAN of things)

~~~
netsharc
In office buildings, devices already talk to each other using a network, so
you don't have miles of cables from each switch to light or window-blind. In
cars too, with CAN Bus.

Apple sells Apple Home Hub, I wonder if that's their "central control system"
so that the Apple Home devices can be a bit dumber, but also it means there's
a central firewall and system that can look for updates.

Also if you can install the "cloud-end" on your own device, when the company
goes Nest, it means you can at least run an old version to keep your "IoT"
gadget running, and it'll be running on the (hopefully) firewalled local hub.

~~~
kalleboo
> Apple sells Apple Home Hub

Apple doesn't sell a "home hub" product. But their smart speaker (HomePod), TV
set top box (Apple TV) and tablets (iPad) can all function as a gateway for
HomeKit devices to be securely controlled from outside the LAN without the
devices themselves having to be very smart or secure.

~~~
HeWhoLurksLate
IIRC, there _was_ AirPort, which was / is a wireless router that had options
for things like storing device backups or similar.

Totally feasible to make a killer wireless AP that's Apple branded and
connects better to the ecosystem, but that doesn't seem to be the direction
Apple is going.

~~~
kalleboo
Yep, they had a range of WiFi routers, including one with a built-in harddisk
for backups. They stopped updating them before they launched HomeKit though,
so it never supported that.

It's a shame they stopped investing in them and missing the whole mesh Wi-Fi
development. Also in this age where they're touting "privacy first" and iTunes
is on the endangered list, not supporting iOS device backups over a LAN is a
huge deficiency.

------
Kique
I kind of like how Google is moving all the home related products to the Nest
brand. We always talk about Google branding being the worst but I think this
is actually a logical move to one brand for everything Home.

I also like that I'll be able to use my google login for my Nest products in
the future, and the author even agrees that the Nest app is not great and the
Google Home app is what I currently use anyway for my Nest products.

I feel like the only real downside of all this is the Works With Nest platform
is dead? Looks like they're working with Amazon on Alexa integration so that
is nice, hopefully that will be ready by the end of August and work with more
companies about integration.

~~~
Andrex
Yes, I agree. The brand consolidation is long overdue, as are any meaningful
updates and fixes to the Nest app. Those are two definite positives of this
move.

Moving to Google Accounts is more murky: I can definitely see and sympathize
with arguments on the basis of Google's overall business model and how it
seems off for an ad company to be creating products for the home. With that
said, Nest accounts (like the app) are woeful and only support the weakest of
2FA methods. (And in fact, I had that break for me on their desktop site --
enter the 2FA, then infinite loading.)

And the definite downside everyone seems to agree on is that killing Works
with Nest (especially on a, IMO, short timeframe) shatters the trust placed in
that ecosystem. Clickbait comments are focusing on the short-term which is
going to be messy and involve a lot of people ditching Nest, but (whether I
agree with it or not) I don't see APIs which give direct device access like
Works with Nest even being a thing in the future.

In a world where the WSJ is sounding the alarm at people adding benign add-ons
to Gmail by their own hand, not to mention people _blaming Nest for their own
weak passwords,_ it may be that even basic security principles need to be re-
examined and in a way "dumbed down." An example of this dumbing down is
removing the ability to turn the recording light off moving forward.[1]

"Dumbing down" is a negative term, but I'm trying to apply it as neutrally as
possible. It makes sense to Google to remove that ability, since any blowback
would fall on them. I'm honestly surprised we haven't yet seen the headline
"Google's Nest Cam recorded me even though it looked turned off," when the
real story there would be an ex-SO or roommate opted to turn the light off and
start recording.

1\. [https://www.techradar.com/news/exclusive-googles-security-
ca...](https://www.techradar.com/news/exclusive-googles-security-cameras-to-
drop-key-customization-option)

~~~
plttn
Agreed. I don't personally have any Nest hardware in my home, but I do have
the app on my phone for family members' home, and the app is definitely kind
of meh at best.

For all the backlash Google has gotten lately, it really does seem like
they're trying to be more open with their privacy controls lately (disabling
the option to turn off the camera light), as well as encouraging more
security.

------
daxterspeed
This article was a surprisingly difficult read. It felt like every other word
was a brand name, and the underlying confusing naming scheme surely didn't
help. On top of that the author flip-flops between the issues of Nest going
away (loss of privacy, and product ecosystem) while excited about Nest
functionality moving to Google Home (Google Nest?).

I think the main takeaway for me is that it'll probably be another decade
until there's any stability to be found in the "smart home" ecosystem.

~~~
justin66
Of course, a decade is optimistic. You could have felt the same way and
written the same thing a decade ago.

It's possible that there will never be any stability in the smart home
ecosystem, and constantly buying and throwing away electronic junk is simply
the norm.

~~~
2Ccltvcm
Stability in the ecosystem means loss of revenue stream. Disorder must be
preserved to generate revenue reliably.

------
deforciant
I did quite a bit of experimentation with home automation systems (HomeSeer,
Home Assistant, Domoticz and so on) and decided that the best (at least for
me) and the most control giving solution is NodeRED -
[https://github.com/node-red/node-red](https://github.com/node-red/node-red).
You can create pretty complex flows with many already available nodes but if
you want something custom - it's trivial either to add JS functions or to
create your own node from scratch. Currently running it in a Docker container
on an Intel NUC :)

The only downside is that it's not user friendly for non-tech people as you
would still have to know few things such as what is HTTP server and how do
devices talk to each other. It's not as easy as plugging in Google Home and
just talking to it. But on the other hand, I only use my google home to: 1\.
Set timer when I am cooking 2\. Send webhooks to my NodeRED to control things.

I don't have Nest currently, although I did use it several years ago, can't
say it's very smart :)

~~~
SteveGregory
I've been using Node Red for a few automation things too, basically as a self-
hosted ifttt/zapier, and it's been working well. I would recommend it beyond
home automation for the kinds of things that are "too small" to warrant their
own code project and deployment setup but are still important enough to be
automatic. This includes things like checking a webpage every 10 minutes and
sending a text if it changes, or remapping webhooks between random services.

~~~
deforciant
Exactly! My NodeRED besides doing some home automation actually does a lot
more "ops" work for me:

1\. Complex healthchecks for my side project webhookrelay.com (tests backend
functionality every 30 seconds) 2\. Normal HTTP healthchecks for all my
websites - webhookrelay.com, keel.sh and few other backing services such as
drone itself. 3\. Updates homebrew formula hash when a new release is out
(there's a super easy to use github integration that allows you to modify
files) 4\. Receives and processes emails from Mailgun about delivery failures.

So yeah, probably the best self-hosted IFTTT/Zapier out there :)

------
samsolomon
Curious, does anyone have a good manual thermostat that they like?

Part of the reason Nest has done so well is most programmable thermostats are
horrible to use. I'm a product designer and I don't understand how the
scheduling works.

Scheduling isn't something I really need for my studio. At night I turn the AC
on, in the morning I turn it off. Don't really need to turn on the heat in the
winter. I'd love is a quality manual thermostat—something like the Honeywell
CT87K1004, but with a metal shell.
[https://www.honeywellstore.com/store/products/the-round-
non-...](https://www.honeywellstore.com/store/products/the-round-non-
progammable-thermostat-ct87k1004.htm)

~~~
wil421
Get a cheap Ecobee lite or one of the many long established manufacturers like
Honeywell.

I really like Nest but after the Google acquisition I’m not confident in their
products being supported. For me I don’t need smart scheduling. My wife works
from home and I do a couple days a week.

The Ecobee 4’s I have are great and come with a couple room sensors. Had them
for a few weeks now. I’ve briefly looked into the API and it looks like I
could integrate it with my Raspberry Pi.

~~~
fpgaminer
I have a Honeywell programmable/smart thermostat and am not particularly happy
with it. The interface is confusing, and the smart functionality is limited
and clunky.

------
bpyne
I can't think of a single compelling use-case for home automation systems. I'm
trying to understand what other people see in it. I have to wonder if it's
driven by the amount of interest a person has in "tinkering" with technology.

~~~
dusing
My system is 100% local, I use zwave, zigbee, and Home assistant. If the
internet goes down nothing changes. If the Pi dies, the light switches work
like one would always expect.

My favorite use case is simple, I walk into a room the lights turn on, I leave
the lights turn off. I open the pantry door, light on, close it light off. I
also enjoy getting in bed and the house shutting down, lights, security,
temperature all tied to my wife and I just getting into bed.

Where people go wrong is buying light bulbs, well now you have to keep the
light switch on 24/7 or the wifi bulk isn't on to know it shoudl be off? like
WTH? Just automate the switch and use normal lights. Wifi anything (wemo,
etc...) sucks and almost always requires cloud service, why reply on the
company that sells a $5 bulb to stay in business? insane.

~~~
bpyne
I can see some energy efficiency in the auto turn on/off.

Maybe we're using different terminology, but what do you use in lieu of light
bulbs? (I call any of those tubular things, e.g. fluorescent lighting, light
bulbs.)

~~~
dusing
You keep the lights you have now, but you put in a smart switch. I prefer
wave, like this [https://www.amazon.com/Leviton-DZ6HD-1BZ-Decora-Dimmer-
Techn...](https://www.amazon.com/Leviton-DZ6HD-1BZ-Decora-Dimmer-
Technology/dp/B01N4F487U/)

Then you can program anything to turn the light on/off. Like for example I
also turn off lights even if there is motion if the luminance sensors say it
is plenty bright inside from the sun.

Or leave the shower light on when the humidity is really high and there is no
detectable motion. I might not be moving enough in the shower but if the
humidity is 90% you can assume the shower is on and I don't want to be left in
the dark.

Another one of my favorites is in our kids play room. On a school night, if
the xbox is on, and there is motion, Alexa will announce a warning about bed
time, wrap up the game play. Then in a couple minutes the xbox turns off, and
then Alexas tell them to brush their teeth, and eventually turns off the
lights in the play room (they would never turn them off on their own). If the
xbox turns back on, my wife and I get an alert on our phones so we can manage
screen time.

------
mabbo
It used to be "Embrace, extend, extinguish"\- Microsoft would promote a
technology, then extend in their own way, then use that extension to kill off
the competitors also using the same tech.

Now it's more like "Acquire, Advocate, Assassinate". Big companies buy small
tech startups doing neat things for customers. They fund it, highly promote
it, integrate it with their stack. Then they kill off the critical pieces that
made the original company loved by their users.

They buy the devs, the tech, and the customers but kill the soul of whatever
it was they acquired.

------
rch
> Google's smart home strategy will now revolve around only the "Works with
> Google Assistant" program

This arguably makes more sense anyway, and I think it opens up some
interesting possibilities that might not have been possible while Nest was a
standalone entity.

~~~
hunter2_
Works With Nest means arbitrary third parties having API access to a Nest
device. Any person could make a dev account and start logging data, sending
commands, etc.

Works With Google Assistant means Google (and in this case, only Google, given
the WwN sunset) having API access to whatever device, in this case a Nest
device.

Correct me if I'm wrong.

~~~
rch
I'm expecting that the extra context available in the Assistant platform will
yield integrations that are generally more useful, even if there are fewer of
them.

As for tinkering... it's not that difficult to build a smart thermostat these
days.

------
heavymark
This is why we invested in Apple Home, since that is the least likely to go
away completely off all the options. Any Google service other than Gmail and
Google Maps may come and go so while they offer amazing features at the cost
of invading your privacy, there is no guarantee they will there in the long
term.

~~~
DannyBee
Apple has cancelled plenty of things, it's just much better at erasing history
and pretending those things never existed than the other companies.

~~~
tinus_hn
I suppose that’s why instead of showing examples you are making broad sweeping
claims?

~~~
DannyBee
Airport stuff, Ping, Monster branded beats headphones, etc.

You can get support for mac/etc stuff for 5 years after purchase (which
admittedly is nice). However, before you decide that is awesome, things like
the headphones were killed with no support regardless of purchase date.

Apple also refuses to call anything it stopped manufacturing "canceled" at
all.

It deliberately tries to message this part, calling them "vintage" until they
have been "not manufactured" (IE canceled) for at least 7 years. They are then
called "obsolete". This is messaging specifically used to try to confuse the
issue, and is unfortunately likely effective.

See [https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT201624](https://support.apple.com/en-
us/HT201624)

Apple doesn't turn down a lot of open API's because they never have them in
the first place, which i'm not sure is better.

(They do turn down existing closed APIs, and not uncommonly by force - saying
if you want to put your app on the store, you must use new version of API x)

~~~
freyr
Very weak examples.

Monster and Beats ended their partnership in 2012, and Apple didn't acquire
Beats till 2014.

Airport had a long run, and even when discontinued, Apple offered to service
Airport products for five years.

Yes, Ping got the axe, and my heart goes out to both of Ping's active users.

~~~
DannyBee
"Monster and Beats ended their partnership in 2012, and Apple didn't acquire
Beats till 2014.

"

Oh well, did you remove everything on the list that Google shut down post-
acquisition? No? Okay then.

"Yes, Ping got the axe, and my heart goes out to both of Ping's active users."

Would you change your tune if you discovered the canceled google products had
less users than Ping?

Google isn't cancelling majority-user products either. If the whole point is
not to hurt the minority, you are just showing you aren't willing to apply the
same standards.

This whole comment feels that way - a strong inability to apply the same
standards to two companies.

~~~
freyr
Again, the Monster partnership ended _pre-acquisition_.

I’m not criticizing Google or defending Apple. I’m just saying, your examples
weren’t very convincing. If that’s the worst of Apple’s product cancellations
(including one claim which wasn’t even true), that’s way better than average.

------
scarface74
In what world could Nest have been a profitable ongoing concern without being
acquired by someone?

It’s hard enough going from startup to either IPO or a self sustainable
“lifestyle business” for a software company. It’s almost impossible for a
hardware company - see Eero.

~~~
NotPaidToPost
I think they had a shot.

It seems to me that they had managed to effectively own the top end segment of
the home thermostat market in term of branding and product recognition. I
don't see why that wouldn't have enabled a profitable, sustainable company.

The thing is that these days people start this kind of company with their exit
in mind from day one.

~~~
scarface74
How sustainable? There are only three ways to sell a thermostat.

\- at the time a home is being built when it’s easy to get all sorts of add
ons bundle through the builder. How many homes are being built in a year?

\- as a self service after market upgrade to your existing thermostat. In the
grand scheme of things, how many people are willing to do that?

-working with service companies or building out a network of installers.

Also, how often do you replace your thermostat?

Look at Roku, they knew from day one that money wasn’t ultimately going to
come from hardware sells. Their business model was always ultimately to get a
cut of subscriptions, sell ads, and sell viewing habits.

~~~
NotPaidToPost
Plenty of thermostats are sold per year. Certainly enough to sustain the many
existing vendors.

E.g. I'm in the UK. There are 25 million homes here and pretty much every home
has a thermostat. If I assume that a thermostat lasts 20 years so that about
5% must be replaced in a given year that means a market of 1.25 million
thermostats every year. Every DIY and plumbing supplies shop sells
thermostats, so they must sell.

~~~
scarface74
How many companies sustain entire businesses just based on selling
thermostats? If Nest captured the entire market and sold $225 thermostats,
that's less than a $300 million a year _revenue_ in an entire year. That
doesn't take into account wholesale prices. What does the net income look
like?

~~~
NotPaidToPost
Being sustainable does not mean being a unicorn.

As said the issue is that the aim always to exit. And also that they approach
this as a Silicon Valley tech company and not as a "standard" company... So
spending goes out of hands and it's a billion dollars or nothing.

~~~
TeMPOraL
Personally, at this point I refuse to use products and services made by
startups unless I have no other choice. Seeking "an exit" is startup code word
for "we don't give a flying fuck about customers and our products; it's only a
vehicle to get us rich".

~~~
scarface74
From a B2B side. I’ve been on both sides of a startup.

On one side we were a small company with a large company as a customer who
demanded that our code be put in escrow in the case we went out of business.
The company did, but the customer hired me as a contractor because I was one
of a few people in the world who knew how to develop on the proprietary
platform. Even better, I was one of only three people in the world who knew
how to modify the C++/MFC platform itself.

On the other side, I was the dev lead for a company and our business consisted
of 60-70% of the vendors revenue. We had them put the code in escrow as part
of our contract.

------
tvanantwerp
I've never felt terribly inconvenienced by manually flipping light switches,
pushing buttons on the remote, or fiddling with the thermostat. Voice control
of these things introduces many new points of failure and aggravations without
delivering an order-of-magnitude improvement to my daily life. I just don't
find it worthwhile.

The day I can say "Google, fold the laundry" or "Alexa, make me a sandwich"
and it _actually does it_ , then I'll happily buy in to a smart home
ecosystem. That's an order-of-magnitude improvement! Until then, I'm OK with
the analog stuff that lasts for ages and breaks in fairly easy-to-understand-
and-fix ways.

------
joshstrange
I got a Nest as a housewarming gift and was excited to set it up and play with
it. I set it up in SmartThings, HomeBridge, IFTTT, and Alexa. That was about 2
weeks ago, now I'm considering returning it and going to with some
zigbee/z-wave alternative.

This is 100% why I refuse to buy WiFi "Smart" devices. They are always a step
away from being shutdown and no longer supported. Tuya devices are sometimes
acceptable but normally only if someone has already cracked how to talk to
them. My new Eufy RoboVac is in that category for me. I'm going to have to
write the majority of the HomeBridge support for it but I know it's possible
(and I LOVE Anker products).

~~~
mikestew
_This is 100% why I refuse to buy WiFi "Smart" devices. They are always a step
away from being shutdown and no longer supported._

It is my understanding that HomeKit devices have to allow direct communication
to HomeKit, meaning that $CHEAP_ASS_IOT servers can be taken down, but it will
still work with HomeKit. (I did make an attempt to find a link to support
this, but a few minutes didn't yield anything for/against.)

~~~
dusing
You'd still be relying on Apple for your UI. Which isn't bad but could be
limiting. Better to go with a Raspberry Pi and home assistant, and add home
kit as an option. Hell also add alexa and google while you are at it. You
wouldn't be tied to anything.

~~~
mikestew
_Better to go with a Raspberry Pi and home assistant, and add home kit as an
option._

Which I do have, but Home Assistant often relies on APIs that HomeKit doesn't.
For instance, EcoBee thermostat: HA needs your creds to go through the EcoBee
API that could be turned off in the future. HomeKit doesn't care, it talks
directly to the thermostat. Now, get Home Assistant to speak HomeKitese and we
have the best of both.

In summary, I'm much less concerned about Apple turning off HomeKit than I am
about EcoBee getting bought, or otherwise deciding they don't want to support
an API anymore.

------
Zigurd
The meta-observation based on comments here is that smart home technology has
bad coupling between volume customers and early adopters, who may be opinion
leaders.

"Broken smart home" describes every smart home ever. If you don't believe that
I have some used X10 light switches to sell you.

Smart homes are a mug's game, but some smart home devices, like smart
speakers, sell well because they do enough straight out of the box and the
simplest level of integration with other devices is simple enough.

If the EOL of Works With Nest troubles you, you are not the mass market. The
mass market is delighted by being able to shout "Hey Google, where's my
phone?" and save a few minutes of searching, and is unconcerned if in two
years their Google Home Mini stops working.

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PeterStuer
1989: About one out of every 63 East Germans collaborated with the Stasi.

2018: About one out every 2 Americans now own a 'smart speaker'

Both Orwell AND Huxley lacked imagination

~~~
jasonvorhe
This is intellectually dishonest and dismissive to people who actually had to
live in a totalitarian surveillance state for decades.

~~~
PeterStuer
I respectfully disagree. I think those that have lived in a surveillance state
(which needs not be overtly totalitarian), are more keen to pick up on the
non-advertised impacts of such technologies.

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borvo
The Nest thermostat is really great, a huge leap over crappy manual
thermostats and the expensive "high tech" ones that others in the traditional
industry have tried to create (bryant, looking at you).

BUT when I purchased this, this is exactly what I was afraid of. I think this
is a huge problem for the software industry in general: most companies don't
last. As a customer you can't place your trust in them as they'll be gone in 5
years.

~~~
mieseratte
> The Nest thermostat is really great, a huge leap over crappy manual
> thermostats

In what regard? I've yet to run into a problem with my "crappy" thermostats.

~~~
borvo
I didn't mean to provoke anyway by saying "crappy" ;-)

What I notice is that the nest does a really great job managing the
temperature in my house and keeping it comfortable. It just works and it
became a default expectation. We had to go back to the old thermostat after an
issue with our furnace, after which I started getting a ton of complaints from
everybody about too cold/too hot. It's a great example of a technology that
works really well.

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woohoo7676
I bought two nest outdoor Cameras on the general recommendation that they were
the best all around for the job. I have them hooked up to my home automation
system so that they sync away statuses - now this is pretty much kaput.

How much would it possibly cost for Google to just keep the Works with Nest
Apis on maintenance mode? I personally will never buy another Nest (or I guess
Google Nest) product since apparently this is how they are treating folks.

~~~
dfrage
> How much would it possibly cost for Google to just keep the Works with Nest
> Apis on maintenance mode?

The cost is basically infinite as Google is internally structured, maintenance
on anything but a monster service is a career dead end. It would likely be
worse for an acquired service like Nest, the experience gained wouldn't
transfer over to Google's back end.

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adjkant
If there's anything to be learned from Nest, I think it would be interesting
to se a full open source stack for things like Nest as well as Google Home /
Alexa. If the NLP is right, the actual functionality is not hard to replicated
means that third party integrations can be easily added/customized. Then you
also eliminate the always on problem with everything going through your own
servers.

What I'm imagining (all open source):

\- Hardware Speaker/Microphone device (can be multiple developed of course on
one standard)

\- Device OS based on Linux

\- NLP engine

\- Easy Plug and Play Server Box

\- Library / Packages for third party integrations (say Gmail et al, Spotify,
Amazon, Weather.com)

\- An open app store type system where all of these "skills" can actually be
used with any device instead of only existing in one ecosystem

Does something like this already exist?

It would obviously take more technical know how, but I think done right it
could really be a big step towards keeping the usefulness of assistants and
smart home devices while building in control and security both in lasting time
and attacks.

~~~
pault
There's home assistant: [https://www.home-assistant.io/](https://www.home-
assistant.io/)

And mozilla web things: [https://iot.mozilla.org/](https://iot.mozilla.org/)

Plenty of options these days. I have high hopes for web things to become the
"app store" that you mention.

~~~
adjkant
Forgive my laziness, but how does this play with third parties and where is it
on the NLP/hardware front?

As much as I love the idea of going open source, the practicalities right now
is using Google/Spotify/Weather/Netflix via voice control is the majority of
my use cases an

I see now I'm talking less smart home and more smart assistant, so I guess
this is verging off a bit from Nest's functionality. WebThings looks really
good on first glance - the API seems well designed and intuitive and the
gateway idea is exactly what I wanted. It seems like the NLP/Speaker to
Gateway connection is needed still.

I really hope this also becomes something third parties support. I'm concerned
that even if all of these pieces come together, Netflix/Spotify just say "lol
no we're gonna only support Amazon/Google".

Appreciate the links!

~~~
pault
Check out the Respeaker Core v2. Right now there isn't much in the way of an
end to end solution, but there are a ton of options to roll your own. And
really, rolling your own is the only way to ensure privacy and longevity
anyway.

------
Vaslo
Has anyone tried Home Assistant to get around things like this? Or are you
locked in proprietary technology anyways?

~~~
magicalhippo
Home Assistant can interface with many different services. I use it with
Z-Wave and the (undocumented) cloud API for my A/C, as well as pulling some
data from weather services etc.

There are a lot of different Z-Wave devices for controlling lights, motors,
heat, as well as sensors for motion, smoke, luminosity etc. Zigbee is another
standard which can also be used with Home Assistant, which is mostly for
lighting AFAIK.

The way Home Assistant is written it's relatively easy to write a new service
which exposes devices that can control or sense. Sensor readings and control
is unified, so you can mix multiple platforms in your automation. You could
have a Z-Wave motion sensor trigger a Philips Hue (Zigbee) light if the
weather service (HTTP) tells you it's past sunset.

You can check out the supported components here: [https://www.home-
assistant.io/components/](https://www.home-assistant.io/components/)

------
beat
What I don't understand is... What's in this for Google? Why are they making
such a radical, customer-hostile, partner-hostile change in direction?
Strategically, this just seems all wrong to me, but there's clearly a Big
Picture I'm not seeing.

~~~
dfrage
Unless the service is monstrous like search or GMail, working on maintaining
existing product infrastructure is a career dead end in the company, the game
is to be part of a project launch. And Google's back end stuff constantly
changes, so significant amount of maintenance is needed to keep _anything_
running indefinitely, another reason for all the things they've killed.

Maybe the conversion of Nest's infrastructure was internally viewed as more
maintenance than new project, so it didn't get much in the way of resources?
Google palpably doesn't care about brand damage so that's not a consideration.

------
Smrchy
Good thing i never bought a Nest device. As with most "Google made" devices
the lifespan and their commitment to support a product are abysmal.

Honestly we need to change the way we think about products - especially
household products like those Nest was selling. No way can i save money with
it if i pay 300$ and it gets killed after 2 or 3 years. And i'm not even
talking about the environmental aspects.

The documentary about Dieter Rams makes me long for more designers who
understand their responsibility.

[https://vimeo.com/ondemand/ramsfilm](https://vimeo.com/ondemand/ramsfilm)

------
omgtehlion
(as recently discussed on HN)
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19854381](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19854381)

------
romanovcode
What would you expect to happen. This was written the moment G bought it. Of
course they are going to merge the platform into Google-Home. This was
inevitable

~~~
nacs
Merging can be done without killing the existing API. I don't care if they
stick "Google Home Assistant Plus+" in front of it as long as the API allows
for interfacing with the hardware I purchased.

Instead, Google decided to go the full-Google kill-everything route.

~~~
asdkhadsj
Can be done, yes - but seemingly not by Google. A purchase by Google seems to
be a pretty likely death sentence for a product.

Makes me happy I migrated away from them years ago.

------
H1Supreme
This is still the Thread protocol under the hood, right? Are developers
prevented from creating another platform based on thread (or openthread)
somehow?

Seems like an opportunity to target people who don't want to move to Google.
But, in reality, your average person won't really care. They'll just migrate
over and not think twice.

------
jayd16
Its an interesting move. Google has the muscle here to innovate on a good
local area IoT protocol and get a large amount of devices using it. There's a
slight chance it'll be opened up one day but I won't hold my breath.

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GiorgioG
Thanks Google, I'm moving away from your services and software development
stacks (bye Angular.)

The only way Google will change their ways is by losing eyeballs, one set at a
time.

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gerbilly
This so called smarthome stuff is just a bunch of garbage 'solutions' in
search of a problem.

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wheelerwj
You can't make this up. Google pushing for privacy and control in one breath,
and the very next are merging Nest personal accounts and data into their
massive architecture.

Really walking the walk google, great work! /s

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hugi
This is why I'm not buying a Google Home. You never know when Google might
kill it, so it's basically lost money.

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narven
Why was the company expected to survive being bought by another company? only
in dreams.

