
Recreation.gov - skbohra123
https://www.recreation.gov/
======
ben174
I worked in the bot defense space for quite some time, and it’s insane how
much of the bot efforts were dedicated to getting camping spots. I’m happy to
see this being recognized because I had many summers ruined because I couldn’t
just get my old favorite camp spot.

~~~
bitexploder
In my experience many of the best camp sites I have been to have been in
federal forest land on forest roads. The tougher the road the better (limits
traffic). I have found some amazing places in Colorado that you could never
reserve and they don’t exist as official camp sites. You find a good spot and
you camp. Camp grounds with packed in sites are... good for some things. I
acknowledge this is a problem for some high traffic areas, but how natural and
interesting is that kind of camping. It’s a shade below glamping. This does
make camping accessible and of course there are edge cases, but in general I
just find it pretty uninteresting. Anyway, I acknowledge the problem, but it’s
also not really a problem for me and many people I know.

~~~
allovernow
How do you find these spots? That sounds like a great excuse to bring out the
4x4.

~~~
leggomylibro
These days, forest roads and primitive roads are often marked on Google /
Apple maps and OpenStreetMaps. So asking your phone for directions to a
national forest usually works well, as long as you check the camping rules and
conditions ahead of time. You'll usually just see a series of pull-outs with
fire pits and cleared areas along the unpaved roads.

Lands managed by the BLM or USFS usually allow dispersed camping in at least
some areas, but it's still a good idea to double-check before you leave, and
you should be aware that the same lands are often used for other activities
like hunting, logging, horse-riding, grazing, offroad vehicles, etc.

You can also get more specialized outdoors mapping apps which can download
data like USGS topographical maps and quad sheets for offline use. If you
think you might like the backcountry, a satellite messenger is a good
investment and those often have companion phone apps.

Don't forget to bring a big battery if you rely on electronics for mapping,
though. And you can usually get decent paper maps from local NPS/USFS/etc
visitor centers once you get to the area. The people in those visitor centers
will also tell you where good sites / hikes / drives / views are, but then you
have to actually talk to someone.

Also, read about pack-in/pack-out policies, what a cathole is, and how to keep
your food from attracting animals.

------
throwaway5752
Recreation.gov has been around for years and it doesn't seem to have been
updated substantially recently. It's a great resource and I hope people use it
to visit US wildlife areas, but I am curious why it has been submitted.

~~~
dogecoinbase
My hypothesis was that a lot of folks (myself included) have started going
hiking/etc on Black Friday instead of participating in the commercial aspects
of the day? Anyways, I upvoted. Our parks/wilderness are one of the really
great things about America.

~~~
ilikehurdles
Outside of southern states, a lot of us are well past the hiking/camping
season this time of year, except for folks well experienced and equipped for
winter recreation or just heading to local city parks.

~~~
Kihashi
If you're day hiking (and not camping or backpacking), this time of year is
still great for hiking even in the northern states. Most people I know that go
hiking in the local parks won't stop doing that until a few weeks from now.

Further, it's the start of hunting season in a lot of places, which means lots
of people _are_ out hiking and camping to hunt.

~~~
LocalPCGuy
Ironically, there are probably just as many regular hikers that stay in
because of hunting season also. Or find trails on non-hunting lands during
this time of year.

------
packetlag
Former SRE for the ground up rebuild of Recreation.gov - I gave a talk at
Datastax's Accelerate conference this summer about how we built this site, and
briefly covered how we combated bots for a while. Enjoy!

[https://youtu.be/gGDWkkj-UDg](https://youtu.be/gGDWkkj-UDg)

~~~
mylampisawesome
Out of curiosity, is there any reason why this video is shown as unlisted on
youtube?

~~~
packetlag
It was recorded/edited/posted by Datastax, gotta ask them. Though, I should
probably download this and repost as myself on youtizzoob.

------
mceoin
So excited to see this on Hacker News!

Brief Shoutout for anyone who would like to see a better online experience for
our National Parks System:

1\. write into rec.gov asking for a booking API!

2\. join accessland.org

3\. build apps using Rec.gov's availability API

(disclaimer: I'm involved with accessland.org)

~~~
krilly
What with all the talk about bot abuse in this thread, an API may not be a
good idea

~~~
mceoin
currently it's only an information and availability API (can't make a
booking). This _does_ make it easier to run a bot, but it also means that
rec.gov servers aren't getting hammered by bots either, which is good for
them.

An advantage of an API is that keys can be revoked for bad actors, so it at
least gives some measure of control where there was none before.

I tend to agree that the lottery is the way to go for popular sites instead of
first-to-book; it's fair and stops older folks from never getting a booking
because they don't know how to build a faster bot.

There are a few other very effective hacks that I am loathe to publish here,
but there _are_ ways to get sites for the determined.

------
leggomylibro
The NPS and BLM sites are also good resources for finding information about
different areas and activities:

[https://www.nps.gov/findapark/index.htm](https://www.nps.gov/findapark/index.htm)

[https://www.blm.gov/programs/recreation/](https://www.blm.gov/programs/recreation/)

As for campsite reservations, peak seasons will always be terribly crowded at
major campsites. It's too bad that people are gaming the system, but if you
need to rush to get a spot in line, you're probably not going to feel like
you're out in the wilderness when you get there anyways. So if you aren't a
huge fan of crowds and noise, try going during the off-season (like right
now!) Also, consider checking out smaller state forests and parks during the
summer months. And many forests and parks allow 'dispersed camping' in certain
areas; you can usually find plenty of semi-maintained campsites along roads in
those places when the maintained campgrounds are full or closed.

And if you go to these areas regularly, an annual parks pass might save you
money, even if they usually only get you discounts on federal land:

[https://www.nps.gov/planyourvisit/passes.htm](https://www.nps.gov/planyourvisit/passes.htm)

~~~
drsim
Great point. We stayed at a lot of campsites in California a few summers ago
and wrestled with the bookings.

In the end our favourite spot was a quiet campsite in Lassen Volcanic park.

------
dankohn1
Recreation.gov was recently rebuilt and runs on Kubernetes. Details:

[https://www.wsj.com/articles/seeking-happy-campers-
governmen...](https://www.wsj.com/articles/seeking-happy-campers-government-
offers-revamped-travel-portal-11570742343)

~~~
collyw
Has that made any difference positive or negative? Or is it new tech for the
sake of new tech?

~~~
zenbob
As someone who used it frequently before and after, it’s not really much
better or worse. The primary user impact I’ve noticed is that the ui is more
“modern” (ie has more spacing between everything)

~~~
ativzzz
Ah, must be the new kubernetes.js frontend framework :)

------
kylebarron
FYI recreation.gov also has an API:
[https://ridb.recreation.gov/](https://ridb.recreation.gov/)

Edit: the National Park Service also has its own API:
[https://www.nps.gov/subjects/developer/api-
documentation.htm](https://www.nps.gov/subjects/developer/api-
documentation.htm)

~~~
mbrameld
As far as I can tell it doesn't provide availability information, though.

~~~
mceoin
there is definitely an availability API. I helped lobby for it! We also
implemented it at Hipcamp

(If you can't find a signup form on the rec.gov website just contact them
directly and ask for access. I think their team was rolling access out slowly
as they hadn't finished building a fully fledged login system but last I
checked they do want 3rd parties being able to build on top of that data)

~~~
kylebarron
That's super interesting. I didn't know about that. Any links to it?

~~~
mceoin
email me and I can send you what I have if you are interested. eoin - at -
sfdevlabs.com

------
droidno9
Front and center of any website to outdoor activities should include some
education about Leave No Trace ([https://lnt.org/](https://lnt.org/)). It's an
absolutely laudable effort to get more people outdoors. However, people new to
the outdoors aren't very cognizant of the kind of footprint they leave behind,
not to mention the *holes who intentionally throw trash at public parks like
they're in their own backyards. For the former type, educational efforts
should be enough to get them to pick up after themselves. For the latter,
hopefully seeing more people speaking out about LNT would make them think
twice about throwing trash around.

~~~
almog
And for people who follow the LNT protocol, and perhaps even carry other
people trash, the next step I suggest is to destroy bushcrafters' "shelters".

They disrupt soil, more often than not made out of live cut trees (and hinder
wood decomposing when not) and 9 out of 10 times, will come with beer cans/tp
scattered around and it's illegal to 'build' them on public land.

If you happen to see one, destroy it, you'll be doing well for the
environment. In fact, USFS and NPS often do just that as part of their job.

Here is one guy who's work on that field inspires others:
[https://douchepacker.com/2018/07/09/destroying-
buschcrafter-...](https://douchepacker.com/2018/07/09/destroying-buschcrafter-
shelters-a-how-to-guide/)

~~~
majos
Not knowing anything about this topic, I’m curious about why this comment is
downvoted.

~~~
Kye
They might be reactive downvotes over the domain name.

~~~
RandomBacon
Geez, there are threats involving boobie traps and explosives in the comments.
Some people...

My guess it's downvoted because maybe some readers here are offended that
they're being called out.

Anything to _feel_ superior I guess.

------
3fe9a03ccd14ca5
They REALLY need recaptcha on park reservations, or some sort of other
automation. I'm 90% sure that botting is the only realistic way to get
campsites in some high demand areas (such as lower and upper pines of
Yosemite).

I'm convinced the only reason there's not MORE scripts around to do it is
because their API/web framework is impossibly ugly and not intuitive.

~~~
chrisseaton
Why don't they run a lottery rather than first-come-first-served on a website?

~~~
baddox
That doesn’t really obviate the need for a captcha, since the number of bots
can be scaled arbitrarily high fairly easily.

~~~
rtpg
Phone number deduplication is an easy way to increase cost on the spammers

------
abhiminator
This is fantastic. The search RP displays parks and sites in the increasing
order of distance as well as the price from the input zip code, and pulls
together places from different government agencies like Fish and Wildlife
Service, NPS, National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration, etc.

They also seem to have a nice collection of KB articles under the 'Help' link
[0] in the header.

[0] [https://recreationonestopprod.service-
now.com/external](https://recreationonestopprod.service-now.com/external)

~~~
oefrha
I can't be the only one who's not a fan of being served close to a megabyte of
JavaScript for some support articles (site is useless without JS).

To add insult to injury, the landing page has a 2118x1415, 2.6MiB background
image.[1] Doing a `-quality 70 -resize 50%` conversion to JPEG results in a
mere 176KiB.

Although, having experienced service-now.com in other settings, it definitely
could be worse.

[1] [https://recreationonestopprod.service-
now.com/83f45a56dbbbab...](https://recreationonestopprod.service-
now.com/83f45a56dbbbab009bf57d0e0f961946.iix)

~~~
kristopolous
Luckily the movement towards a sanity of legible, functioning websites seems
to be picking up steam. Let's just hope it continues.

------
bsimpson
It pisses me off when I see "All rights reserved" on a federal government
page. The copyright for publicly-funded works should reside with the public,
free for use by all.

~~~
solipsism
The US Government asserts a copyright to its works in other countries. It's
only with respect to US federal law that government works are not
copyrightable.

------
miquong
Exactly 6 months from today is last day of US Memorial Day holiday weekend.
Lots of camping areas in the US require reservations within 6 months, making
the today and the next few months the best days to get a reservation for
popular summer US camping areas. Also note, recreation.gov is only for US
Federal parks, many state and local parks will their own websites, apps or
other systems for making reservations.

------
sargram01
Has anyone ever been able to make a reservation on that site? Anytime I look
at locations they’re either closed, or booked, or you have to plan a half year
in advance.

~~~
droidno9
The popular sites are booked within minutes of opening up. [Thus the
complaints about bots.] That said, many of these sites have a limited number
of spots reserved for walk-ins. So, have a couple of back up options if you're
going to try your luck at a popular site.

Sites that don't have electric or water hookups may be easier to get since
they're less popular with RVs. And the folks with RVs are experts at campsite
reservation.

That said, go off the beaten path. Less people make for a more enjoyable
experience. Some of my best car camping experiences have been on the side of a
forest service road, especially one accessible only with a high clearance 4x4.

Sites that are accessible only by foot, even a half a mile in, are usually not
that crowded. But you'd have to backpack in everything you'd need for the
stay.

------
xxpor
Lol at the copyright notice at the bottom.

I notice the app is made by Booz Allen Hamilton. It's a shame we have to farm
this stuff out to contractors and not use the USDS or 18F.

~~~
tingletech
How can a federal government site be copyrighted? And, copyrighted by a domain
name nonetheless.

I worked on a project once with the national park service. Their Office of
General Council or whatever its called didn't want to agree to make their
metadata on [https://npgallery.nps.gov](https://npgallery.nps.gov) available
to use with a CC0 license for use in [https://dp.la/](https://dp.la/) . Sure,
the images might not have been taken by federal employees, but why try to
assert copyright ownership in the metadata? Eventually they agreed for one
collection, but they have lots of cool content on there from California parks
we would like to put on [https://calisphere.org](https://calisphere.org) .

The stuff they have up at Clemson has CC0 metadata, and the rights info for
the content is pretty clearly marked [https://openparksnetwork.org/about/opn-
rights/](https://openparksnetwork.org/about/opn-rights/)

~~~
rory096
Work done by private entities under contract to the government is
copyrightable.

~~~
xxpor
To whom though? The contractor? That's fucked up if true.

------
gigatexal
Government websites are improving steadily, this website is top quality.

------
heelix
The launch this year was a bit rough for the Boundary Waters Canoe Area (BWCA)
permits here in Minnesota. They limit permits to lakes, and the holiday
weekends go fast, so I'm one of those who makes the Labor day plans (etc) in
January.

Mine worked. Lovely site, knew exactly what I was headed to, and got my
permits. Seems others had issues if they had to search around. Entire thing
sounds like it shook apart later that morning. They canceled the reservations
and did a second 'launch', which was the right thing to do. I don't know of
anyone who thought they had booked, canceled, and could not get a permit
later. Successfully turned a terrible kickoff into something OK.

------
xur17
Are the maps failing to load for anyone else?

~~~
OrgNet
The map doesnt load and it's missing many camping sites in my area

~~~
bchanudet
I think something is wrong with the map or some sites' coordinates, because
some POI are in the Atlantic, west of Europe.

Also the Netherlands memorial is located in Belgium, but in the "How to get
there" instructions it is said to be east of Maastricht.

------
Dowwie
I've used this site many times without any issues, which is all I can ask for
from a government funded service. I've even had a good experience resolving a
refund. The campground maps are valuable for booking tent camp sites. It helps
to know where sites are relative to bathrooms and other common areas.

------
a3n
What agency are they under? Couldn't find it on site, just who they partner
with. But who are _they_?

~~~
mceoin
recreation.gov was contracted out to Booze Allen Hamilton via RFP from the
National Park Service.

Disclosure: I don't work at Booze but did collaborate with them loosely when
integrating rec.gov's API[0] into Hipcamp.com

The previous contractor was Reserve America. If you're interested in some fun
reading on open data advocacy that led to everybody being able to access
public parks data via API check out accessland.org

[0] [https://ridb.recreation.gov/](https://ridb.recreation.gov/)

------
sealthedeal
So these camp spots, is this just like a general area where RVs can hook up to
power? I don’t quite understand why camping spots are so desired that people
are writing web scrapers and even selling on a secondary market? Sounds like a
whole new world I’ve never heard of.

~~~
giobox
There are usually different types of spot, from RV with hookups to a simple
campfire for a tent. As someone who likes camping, this issue regularly rears
its head for me. There are sites that I have only been able to visit twice in
four years due to lack of availability for me, despite frequent checks.

It's not really all that hard to understand, it appears on the face of it to
be supply and demand. There are a lot of people throughout America who love
camping and not all that many sites at the popular locations relative to that
demand. Has been this way for many years. I imagine the problem is likely
particularly acute in places such as the Bay Area given the population density
and climate, as well as the more popular National Parks like Yosemite,
Yellowstone etc. If you haven't recently visited one of the major NPs at peak
season you might be genuinely surprised how many people cram into these
places.

I've taken recently to just booking whatever I can get - I often don't have
much choice but to take what I can find that's actually available.

------
jangid
But why the government have to do it? Isn't it a profitable business in
itself?

~~~
ffe44
IMHO, this type of sites should be developed and owned by the government. It's
OK if someone finds a way to monetize this, but the directory itself should be
public.

------
morganric
which country is this for?

~~~
Kye
The US government runs .gov and only allows registration by governments inside
the country.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.gov](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.gov)

------
rbritton
Not reCAPTCHA, please. It’s horrendous in any environment that blocks any real
amount of tracking. Rate limiting would solve the bot issue without
inconveniencing regular users.

~~~
folkhack
As someone with lots of anti-anti-botting knowledge - both are ineffective.

Even if it's a "global rate limit" I'll find out the value (never ran into
someone randomizing it) and jump on the web request faster than anyone else
RIGHT as it comes up.

With CAPTCHAs I'll bypass with a solving service and/or computer vision if
it's easy, or even just get past the noCAPTCHA solutions with primed browser
instances from credible networks.

But don't kid yourself - that would not solve botting _at all_.

~~~
gitgud
> But don't kid yourself - that would not solve botting at all.

Surely capatcha's and rate limiting raises the bar for people botting.

It couldn't make it any worse right?

~~~
CaptainMarvel
If it doesn’t make it any better, then captcha makes it works for real humans

~~~
folkhack
Yep - and as someone who's ran a lot of conversion-based online solutions this
is 100% true. Even when you account for automated sign-ups etc. the inclusion
of a CAPTCHA will ding your rates.

------
ForFreedom
Why was this submitted here and how did this even get to the top?

