
180,000 Child Programmers Versus 44 Ogres - gsaines
http://blog.codecombat.com/180000-child-programmers-versus-44-ogres
======
tarr11
I am a big supporter of Code Combat. I am teaching a few kids to code in
person (including my own kids). I discovered it through an HN post a few
months back.

My first session of 4th graders used Code Combat on the first day, and they
loved it.

I was thinking about using Code Combat through my whole session, as a way to
introduce programming, because the kids loved the site so much.

But, there are issues.

* The browser loses focus. Kids don't touch type so they don't notice this until they have been typing for a few minutes sometimes(?!)

* Finding typos is incredibly frustrating for these kids. Javascript has a lot of "syntactical overhead" that gets in the way of learning core concepts.

* They just get stuck and need someone to help them. At the elementary school age level, they have about 5 minutes of total patience before they stop. They don't "rage quit" like middle school kids would, they just start goofing around.

I think these are resolvable issues, and I actually think the Olark idea is a
fairly good one.

In the end, I ended up using MIT Scratch to teach most of the class. It got
rid of the syntactical issues, and lets them express their creativity visually
and with sounds as well.

It has its own set of issues too though since it's a visual language and some
things are just hard.

That said, I'm still excited about Code Combat and watching developments
closely. Keep it up guys! All the kids want to keep coding so maybe I'll try
again in January!

FYI - Here's more info about that particular class:
[http://douglastarr.com/coding-class-week-1/](http://douglastarr.com/coding-
class-week-1/)

~~~
gsaines
Hi tarr11, thanks a lot for the in-depth feedback, this is hugely helpful for
us. I had actually read your blog post when it was posted, and we got a lot of
helpful information out of it.

Here are some responses to the problems:

* When you the browser loses focus, do you mean the code editor or the entire browser? Also, have you kids had any problems with backspace taking them to the previous page? We're trying to diagnose the latter problem and can't reliably reproduce it, but know that it's causing users a lot of frustration.

* Syntax is actually our hardest problem for new players, and we're considering ways to make it easier for people to get into the game. One idea is to shorten the method names (say to this.attack(); rather than this.attackNearbyEnemy();) enabling drag and drop or click and insert from the spell editor, etc. Do you have any specific recommendations for changes we might make?

* We're definitely shielded from the distraction-quits since our UX testing sessions tend to be either paid or semi-compulsory (classroom time), but I imagine this is a big problem. Do you find that there's a point of reliable minimum interest among players? Say during a particular level or challenge?

Again, thanks a lot for so deeply engaging and getting us some areas to work
on. If you are interested, we'd love to have someone as communicative and
engaged working on the open source when it gets released (hopefully in the
next week or so)!

~~~
zachlatta
I think simplifying method names is a very good idea. However, please don't
implement any sort of drag and drop interface. I've taught a few programmers
using drag and drop tools and all of them have run into significant issues
transitioning to "real" coding.

~~~
leoc
Better, probably, to learn programming through a drag-and-drop interface, then
make a difficult transition to typing, than try to overcome both challenges at
the same time and likely give up. Having done microcomputer BASIC programming
as a primary-school child I can testify that syntax errors are just a horrible
waste of time and enthusiasm at that level.

~~~
vinceguidry
I think the problem is better solved by using a DSL rather than a general
purpose programming language. You can make the syntax simple as pie and still
keep the platform as expressive as you need it.

------
wil421
>American Students Are the Best Trolls and the Worst Programmers

Do you think the trolling had any effect on Americans being the worst
programmers. Or were the Americans who tried coding truly "the worst." How did
you determine Americans were even the ones you were talking to (by time
zone?). I would like to see some data for the total students who participated
by each country.

~~~
watwut
I suspect that while American kids might have been dragged into it by schools
and teachers whether interested or not, international kids were all interested
in it or at least choosen by teachers as good students.

Also, I do not know how many languages do they support. However, if it is only
english, almost all international participating kids are someone who learned
foreign language. Which rules out worst cases.

As far as I know, there was huge campaign in usa involving president and
"everybody has to code" slogans. As far as I know, there was no such thing
elsewhere.

~~~
gsaines
I know for a fact that the hour of code was compulsory for American students,
which is definitely a big contributor to trolling behavior. I know that most
of my classes in HS would have reverted to juvenile behavior given an open-
ended social situation like an Olark chat. That said, it was still startling!

------
deletes
Every child should be shown how to program for a few days, but merely so that
those few who are genuinely interested get to know that programming "exists".

~~~
yaddayadda
And if they are genuinely interested, that they have access to the necessary
resources to continue.

In middle school we had a two week section on computers and programming, which
I absolutely devoured. But I didn't have access to the computer lab again in
middle school, the two high schools I attended didn't even have computer labs,
and my family wouldn't own a computer until more than a decade later. :-(

~~~
gsaines
My first computer was my father's Amstrad '86 with a whopping 1MHz processor
and 512k of RAM. He bought it so he could work on his master's thesis in the
late 80s. A friend of mine in high school (during the early 00's) got his
first computer in the late nineties and he bought it with own cash because his
parents didn't think computers were worth it. By that time I knew a lot more
about computers just by having it around the house. Simply put, you're right:
access is a huge issue.

------
ogreyonder
As an ogre, I have to say I'm offended.

But as a programmer, awesome job Code Combat! Your turnout was pretty
inspiring. I'm a little sad at the observation that American kids were such
trolls though. I mean, I don't know what I expected; I meet them all the time
in online video games. I guess I just had hoped the ones that would come
across a code competition and be interested enough to click would also be
mature enough to show some restraint.

------
duffdevice
Kudos to your team for rising to this challenge! I love the idea of using
games to help kids learn, well, anything really.

But this part sort of took my breath away:

> COD is Call of Duty, the latest ultra-violent first person shooter which
> kids are playing at a rate of more than a millennium per day.

Am I the only one who finds this number mind-boggling?

~~~
deletes
Playing two hours a day per person would make 4380000 players. Which seems
pretty realistic considering there were 12 million active Wow players at one
point.

~~~
watwut
Many COD and WOW players are adults. According to some stats I read, an
average player of big single player games is more then 30 years old male. So I
assume that many of them will play multiplayers too. Plus, I know many adults
that play those games.

I'm not sure that COD is "ultra-violent". It is violent of course, but not
much more then an average action movie.

~~~
nwinter
I call it "ultra-violent" because the one time I played it myself, this was
the first level:
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:NoRussian.jpg](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:NoRussian.jpg)

Basically you're pretending to be a terrorist, you have to shoot up an airport
full of civilians (who die very realistically, beg for their lives, etc.), and
then at the end of the level the main terrorist whose cell you're trying to
infiltrate shoots you in the face and you die.

~~~
deletes
What happens if you don't shoot the civilians, does the game end?[/qurious]

~~~
nwinter
It's slightly possible to do the level without shooting the civilians yourself
(your terrorist buddies can kill them for you), but you do have to kill the
Russian airport police who show up to stop you. If you refuse to shoot them,
the battle just continues forever until you open fire.

------
Grokit
I would totally like to support you guys, but you never replied to my
technical issue inquiry on twitter, so I haven't been able to use your site.

~~~
serickson
Sorry for that, must have missed it! Send us an email at team@codecombat.com
for support; none of us are very good at Twitter.

------
Axsuul
Any suggestions on gift ideas related to this?

