
The confusing way Mexicans tell time - kawera
http://www.bbc.com/travel/story/20170725-the-confusing-way-mexicans-tell-time
======
foxfired
2 fun things I learned.

1\. In kirundi (a common language in Burundi) there is one word for both
yesterday and tomorrow. They don't confuse the meaning because of the context
of the sentence. But when my friend speaking Kirundi spoke french with me on
the phone, he often interchanged the two... I never knew if he would visit the
next day or had already visited me.

[http://amajambo.ijuru.com/?q=yesterday&lang=en&start=0](http://amajambo.ijuru.com/?q=yesterday&lang=en&start=0)
[http://amajambo.ijuru.com/?q=tomorrow&lang=en&start=0](http://amajambo.ijuru.com/?q=tomorrow&lang=en&start=0)

2\. In swahili (at least in Tanzania), time is told inversly. Think of a
circular clock where the 12 o'clock is 6 o'clock, 3 o'clock is 9 o'clock. 9
o'clock is 3 o'clock. Yes it was very confusing to me, but you can get used to
anything.

~~~
schoen
> In swahili (at least in Tanzania), time is told inversly.

Could this be under the influence of Arabic script? After all, Swahili used to
be written in that script.

[Edit: In particular, I meant because Arabic is written right-to-left; I think
the parent commenter was saying that Swahili speakers think of a clock as
moving what we would consider counter-clockwise.]

~~~
throw_away
This video:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L2mekalOTas](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L2mekalOTas)

claims that it's because these countries are near the equator, and their
sunrise and sunset times are very consistent throughout the year (exactly 12
hours apart). So, they have twelve hours after sunrise and twelve hours after
sunset.

------
Vanclief
The only confusing thing here is how this got to become an article. There is
no magical or complex thing about "Ahorita". In the states some people may
tell you "Give me a sec" and have you wait for a couple of minutes. Yet I
don't see an article saying "The confusing way Americans tell the time".

Unlike the author I know what I am talking about because I am an actuall
Mexican.

~~~
robotresearcher
In English we have a very context-sensitive timing word: 'soon'. Soon can mean
5 seconds from now or much more, depending on context.

'I'm leaving for the airport soon.' This probably means within a few minutes
or hours.

'Soon my kids will be all grown up and leaving for college.' This means
anything up to a decade or more. Nobody would expect my son to leave today,
even though the wording is the same as my airport declaration.

This rarely causes any trouble, despite the large difference in meaning.

~~~
Aloha
This is truly the direct parallel.

"I'll be leaving soon" probably means within a half an hour.

"It'll be done real soon now" \- means possibly never, but probably
eventually.

------
kilroy123
Ah, ahorita, I know it well. (I'm an American living in the Mexico) When I
hear this, I always assume it means never. Depends on the context of course.

In Mexico, they kind of don't ever say the word no. They would rather say:
ahorita, maybe, possibly, etc. For example, they will often say, "Thank you"
instead of no thank you. It can be frustrating at times, as I'm a direct
gringo.

~~~
mirimir
Yes, that's the thing. You don't say "no". And you don't put people into
situations where they'd need to say "no".

~~~
hueving
What does this stem from? Fear of violent conflict?

~~~
mirimir
Maybe, I suppose. Fear of giving offense. But it's mostly about politeness, I
think. There's some of that in the US South, as well.

------
neilwilson
What would be an interesting study would be to graph the preciseness with
which a culture views time and the level of advanced society they have.

Slavery to the clock may stick in the craw a bit, but cultures that took time
seriously could co-ordinate groups and individuals better and get more done.
The result was a higher standard of living.

Is the Japanese obsession with getting their trains precisely on time one of
the reasons they were able to industrialise so quickly?

~~~
frooxie
According to the book "Bad Samaritans: The Myth of Free Trade and the Secret
History of Capitalism", countries become hardworking and disciplined because
of economic development, rather than the other way around. A long but
interesting quote:

"Having toured lots of factories in a developing country, an Australian
management consultant told the government officials who had invited him: “My
impression as to your cheap labor was soon disillusioned when I saw your
people at work. No doubt they are lowly paid, but the return is equally so; to
see your men at work made me feel that you are a very satisfied easy-going
race who reckon time is no object. When I spoke to some managers they informed
me that it was impossible to change the habits of national heritage.”

This Australian consultant was understandably worried that the workers of the
country he was visiting did not have the right work eithic. In fact, he was
being quite polite. He could have been blunt and just called them lazy. No
wonder the country was poor — not dirt poor, but with an income level that was
less than a quarter of Australia’s.

The country in question… was Japan in 1915. It doesn’t feel quite right that
someone from Australia (a nation known today for its ability to have a good
time) could call the Japanese lazy. But this is how most westerners saw Japan
a century ago.

In his 1903 book, Evolution of the Japanese, the American missionary Sidney
Gulick observed that many Japanese “give an impression…of being lazy and
utterly indifferent to the passage of time.” Gulick was no casual observer. He
lived in Japan for 25 years (1888-1913), fully mastered the Japanese language,
and taught in Japanese university. After his return to the US, he was known
for his campaign for racial equality on behalf of Asian Americans.
Nevertheless, he saw ample confirmation of the cultural stereotype of the
Japanese as an “easy-going” and “emotional” people who possessed qualities
like “lightness of heart, freedom from all anxiety for the future, living
chiefly for the present.”

(...)

This was not just a western prejudice against eastern peoples. The British
used to say similar things about the Germans. Before their economic take-off
in the mid-19th century, the Germans were typically described by the British
as “a dull and heavy people.” “Indolence” was a word that was frequently
associated with the Germanic nature."

~~~
ue_
I wonder if the idea works now, too. Are the common perceptions of Japanese or
Germans as particularly hard or intelligent workers false? Just as the Germans
were thought of as indolent years ago, they are thought of as laborious today.

I've always been of the opinion that these are myths with little or
cherrypicked anecdota as backup. It makes little sense to me to judge millions
of people like that.

------
iopuy
As a general rule of thumb I discount all editorials that start with an
unverifiable personal anecdote. They are just too easy to fake and having
worked in journalism I can see right through it. Have a piece on illegal
immigration? Sure, why not open with the conversation you had with you illegal
garder. Legislation on new driving laws, why not harken back to a conveniently
apropos story about the nun that honked at you while sitting at a stop light
two years ago. These things became the laughing stock of our newsroom. We even
had a name for them, "sure it dids".

~~~
Aloha
Google apparently helps check this one out.

[http://blogs.transparent.com/spanish/the-meaning-of-
ahorita/](http://blogs.transparent.com/spanish/the-meaning-of-ahorita/)

[http://gringationcancun.com/2011/07/06/how-to-speak-like-
a-m...](http://gringationcancun.com/2011/07/06/how-to-speak-like-a-mexicano-
ahorita/)

~~~
mcbits
But both of those articles also start with "When I ..."

------
ProxCoques
This reminds me that it wasn't until recently that I realised that in English,
the word "next" when applied to recurring days of the week in English does NOT
mean the nearest chronological occurrence of that day. It means the one AFTER
it.

So, if a friend says to you on Wednesday that they'll meet you "next Friday"
that means Friday AFTER the coming one.

~~~
pbhjpbhj
Hmm, I'm not sure it's that simple! This is how I think it goes:

(en-gb) "Next Friday" is not "the next" (which is called "this Friday" if its
the same week). If the next Friday occurs in the next week then people will
say "this Friday _coming_ " to specify that they don't mean the Friday that's
just gone.

"Next Friday" seems to mean "Friday of the next week", so it can either be the
next chronological Friday or the next-but-one.

A sentence like "This Friday Jules and me were going to go to the cinema but
something came up." could be said of a past situation - if said on Saturday or
Sunday.

Similarly "Next Friday Jules and me were going to go to the cinema but
something came up." could be said of the following week - so it's the next
Friday on Saturday/Sunday but the next-but-one any other day.

There are seemingly geographic differences in the UK as to which "next" is
intended IME.

"Friday coming" is always the next Friday chronologically.

There are similar problems with, for example, "last Friday", especially if it
was yesterday most people will think you mean "the Friday of last week".

~~~
twic
That's exactly why we say oxt:

[http://oxtweekend.com/](http://oxtweekend.com/)

------
mirimir
In my experience, if you're hearing "ahorita" a lot, you probably ought to
chill.

------
mysterypie
What's missing from this story is a translation of _ahorita_ in the context of
the ice-cream seller that would make sense to English speakers.

How about, "The chocolate ice cream will arrive _eventually_ "? Would that be
an context-correct translation of what the ice cream guy was saying?

~~~
vinceguidry
The entire article was literally dedicated to answering that question. The
whole point is that it's hard to translate.

~~~
StavrosK
If it was devoted to answering the question, it did a really poor job at it.
It basically said "this is a word that doesn't have a direct translation, oh
how odd Mexican culture is".

Nothing about whether it's closer to "soon", "any minute now", "in a bit", "at
some point", "anon", or any of the other time-indeterminate phrases.

~~~
vinceguidry
The article clearly stated that it meant all of those things, and whichever
meaning is intended for any particular utterance is denoted by both context
and tone.

I had no problem understanding the article and came away more informed than
confused. Maybe slow down more when you read?

~~~
mysterypie
> meaning is denoted by both context and tone

The article did give an example of context and tone -- a friendly ice cream
vendor on the street -- but it didn't give the English translation for _that
context_.

------
ak39
South Africans:

[http://www.joburgexpat.com/2011/02/just-now-or-now-
now.html?...](http://www.joburgexpat.com/2011/02/just-now-or-now-now.html?m=1)

Culture is a beautiful thing.

~~~
brettfarrow
If I had a dollar for every time "Ek sal kom nou nou" turned into an hour or
more, I'd be retired in Camps Bay.

~~~
ak39
Emphasis on "dollar"! :-)

------
partycoder
You could say the same of English.

\- "Maybe later" -> no / never

\- "Let me think about it" -> no

\- "You should receive an e-mail couple of days" \- we would like you to leave
now. you will receive an email from donotreply@company.com

Very implicit, indirect and uncommitted.

~~~
pbhjpbhj
I dispute your two phrases there. Some parents will use "maybe later", etc.,
to put off saying "no" but it's not everyone that does this - indirect people
will.

------
uglycoyote
When I visited Mexico I stayed in a hotel where I needed to ask in my broken
Spanish for a towel. The hotel employee told me "ahorita te las llevan" which
she wrote on a piece of paper for me since I looked confused and didn't
understand the response verbally.

I looked up ahorita in my dictionary which translated it as "soon", which
clarified things instantly.

So I was a bit surprised that the author of this article made ahorita out to
be such a complicated concept when in fact the word "soon" seems to be an apt
translation, and is used in English in much the same nebulous way.

If only this poor fellow had had the same dictionary as I did he would have
saved some time and frustration, but perhaps not had a good enough story to
write a BBC article about.

~~~
brianwawok
It's not that simple though. Ahorita can also be a polite never. In English,
you would almost never use "soon" for a polite never. You would say something
more like "I will think about that", or "Maybe", or "we will see..". Soon
would be a promise to do it at some point in the near future.

------
erikig
Growing up in East Africa, this reminds me a lot of our attitude towards time.

In addition, in Swahili time is relative to sunrise which further complicates
things:
[https://youtu.be/L2mekalOTas?t=1m25s](https://youtu.be/L2mekalOTas?t=1m25s)

------
buyx
English is not immune to these sorts of variations.

In South African English

"now": sometime maybe/immediately. This is hard to decipher.

"now-now": very soon/immediately (this usage seems less common nowadays)

"just now": at some point in the near future

~~~
pbhjpbhj
In South Wales they say "I'll be there now" meaning "I'm coming soon". Though
the soon can be more like "a little later". It's quite ambiguous.

If someone says "I'll be there now, in a minute, but" then they're probably
coming soon, 10 or 15 minutes (but/butty is like "buddy").

A classic Wenglish phrase is "where to's by that then?" meaning "where is
it?". If you can respond "[over] by er" ("by here") meaning "here" all the
better.

------
vinchuco
Words can have more than one meaning based on context? Mexicans are so
confusing! Nature is so wild...

------
franze
in austrian-german there is "gleich" which can either mean "right now" or "i
will do it when i feel like it" or "f#ck off".

~~~
gurkendoktor
I was thinking of the German "gleich" when reading this article; I remember
complaining to my parents about how the word can mean anything from seconds to
hours. Although I don't think I've ever seen a "gleich" that did not happen on
the same day at least.

------
lwansbrough
Wow, an entire article dedicated to the Mexican version of the word "soon!"

------
fallinghawks
From when I worked in restaurant: when your hands are full and a customer asks
for something, you tell them you'll get to it "right away." It sounds
satisfying to the customer, but actually means you'll do it when you are done
with whatever you're doing. This seems very much in line with "ahorita."

------
BrandoElFollito
Interestingly this is also somehow the case with Polish.

The word for "moment" is "chwila".

When someone will come in a "chwila", it means that this will happen in some
time between, say, 15 min and an hour.

"chwilka" is a diminutive which shortens the distance with the speaker and
usually means "chwila" if not _longer_. It also implies that you ce some kind
of esteem to the speaker (not much, it is above the "fuck off" esteem).

Then comes "chwileczka", diminutive of "chwilka". It is usually a shorter
"chwilka" , with its mark of esteem.

This may heavily vary between regions, though.

------
loblollyboy
How is that different from 'wait a minute' or 'wait a sec'?

------
SAI_Peregrinus
Could be worse. Could be Danish:
[http://www.fyidenmark.com/danish_time.html](http://www.fyidenmark.com/danish_time.html)

------
bitwize
This is not really confusing. The English equivalent to _ahorita_ is "Real
Soon Now".

Q: When is that shipment from Amazon due to arrive?

A: Oh, real soon now.

Q: When is GIMP finally going to get CMYK support?

A: Oh, Real Soon Now.

------
roystonvassey
In the same vein, a favourite anecdote of mine is about languages that don't
have words for 'left, right, ahead, behind' and instead always use directions
of the compass - 'north, south, east, west'.

[http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/29/magazine/29language-t.html](http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/29/magazine/29language-t.html)

------
bontaq
Seems sort of like how we use "minute" where I'm from. Like, "I'll be there in
a minute," could be any moment or five hours from now. A hot minute is more a
statement that they're on their way, no indication of arrival time. It's nice

------
Kiro
OT but when I read "ahorita regreso" it felt like I had heard it a million
times but couldn't figure out why since I don't have any reason to hear
Spanish that often. Then I realized... Sombra!

------
gerardnll
'Ahorita' is not used in Spain. And adding '-ita' or '-ito' to a word makes it
diminutive.

------
tabtab
"Build a clock-wall around them and make them read it for us!" -Tonald J.
Drump

------
2_listerine_pls
It's not a cultural difference, it a word that has multiple meanings, Why is
this surprising?

~~~
brianwawok
Have you spent any time in Mexico? Not say Cancun but actual real Mexico?

Time is a HUGE cultural difference. The article is spot on. Being 2 hours late
to a party is normal.

~~~
2_listerine_pls
I am from Mexico.

------
noncoml
So what did the ice cream guy mean by "ahoriiiita"?

~~~
mirimir
Something like "I have no fucking clue. But hey, I'm just pushing this cart.
If you want guaranteed stock, go to Walmart. And have a nice day."

------
thinbeige
tl;dr (one sentence taken from the post):

“When a Mexican says ‘ahorita’, it could mean tomorrow, in an hour, within
five years or never.”

~~~
mirimir
OK, so in Spanish, "ahorita" means "right now". In Mexican Spanish, it means
more like "We're friends, so I hope that it'll be soon. But then we're
friends, so I don't expect that you'll give me a hard time if it's not soon."

~~~
Oletros
Ahorita is not used outside of Mexico, in other Spanish spoken countries, you
use ahora.

~~~
patrickaljord
Sorry but this is incorrect. I lived in Peru for 4 years and speak to my
Peruvian wife in Spanish everyday, they use ahorita the exact same way they do
in Mexico, Peru even uses more diminutive than Mexico, and I know it's the
same in Bolivia, Chile and Colombia that I have visited. Looks like the author
of this article doesn't know a lot about Latin America. I also know Puerto
Rico is big on diminutive, so I'd say it's pretty much every single country in
Latin America that speaks Spanish, they all use ahorita and even ahoritita
this way.

~~~
afc
I'm from Colombia and can confirm: we use "ahorita" all the time, with the
exact meaning described in the article.

The article claims Mexicans are not famous for their use of diminutives.
They're not where I come from. I actually recall Peruvians and Venezuelans
during my travels through South America mocking me (in a friendly way) for the
fact that, in their view, Colombians use diminutives all the time.

~~~
Shorel
In Colombia we mock people from Santander for using diminutives all the time.
Or we don't mock but we notice it a lot.

------
grecy
What a disgusting what to view other cultures.

The only confusing thing here is that this article assumes the way "we" tell
time makes sense, and the way "They" tell time is confusing.

It is as if somehow everything "we" do is the one and only best way, and any
other way is simple and quaint.

~~~
mkl
It's written for an audience. The way that audience tells time does make sense
to us (in the audience), and other ways can be confusing to us.

There is no judgement whatsoever, and no claim that one view is more right. It
is an explanation of differences.

I think you are imagining insults that were not intended, much like the
author's initial misinterpretation of "ahorita".

------
gciruelos
>Understanding this word takes not a fluency in the language but rather a
fluency in Mexican culture.

Wrong. I am native in spanish, not even near to "fluent" in "Mexican culture"
and I can understand it. I think any Spanish speaker older than 5 can
understand it.

Latin America has a myriad of different accents and dialects, far more than in
the United States (think more of a UK kind of thing). Some say "ahorita", some
don't; but everyone can understand it.

All in all, the article is pretty inaccurate.

~~~
ezequiel-garzon
I'm also a native Spanish speaker (not Mexican, older than 5) and, while I
would imagine "ahorita" is a relaxed, and hence imprecise, version of "ahora"
("now"), I didn't know, as the article states, it could mean within five years
or never. That is certainly a cultural norm and not something you can figure
out.

