
The WhatsApp suicide - akbarnama
http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-37735370
======
rosalinekarr
This is terrible, but blaming WhatsApp seems like a weird leap of logic. If
someone harassed you over the phone, you wouldn't blame the telecom company.
If someone sent you a death threat in the mail, you wouldn't sue the postal
service. If someone hit you with their car, you wouldn't retaliate against the
automaker.

It seems like the BBC is just bringing up the name of the popular chat app as
a way of generating more clicks. If their goal is raise awareness for the
woman who died and people like her, that's noble but a bit misguided. If their
goal is simply to generate more viewership and revenue for their website
(which it seems like it is), it's deplorable.

~~~
tptacek
The article doesn't blame WhatsApp, any more than a story abut a murder in
Tulsa called "The Tulsa Murder" would be blaming Tulsa. WhatsApp is not the
victim here.

~~~
afarrell
The proper analogy is more to The Cragslist Killer

------
arpit
Has an Indian male, reading about this stuff is both extremely horrifying and
sadly familiar. What are the organizations and charities who are doing the
best work to change this situation? I'd like to actively help.

------
dunkelsten
So this is what happens, if exponential progress collides head-on with a
medieval culture thad had no time to prepare. Absolutely scary - and to me it
rather looks like it's helping fighting equality and human decency rather than
fostering it.

~~~
mistersquid
> So this is what happens, if exponential progress collides head-on with a
> medieval culture thad had no time to prepare

It's inaccurate to characterize this as a problem with "medieval culture"
meeting new technology.

This is a problem of a misogynist ultra-patriarchal culture (subculture?) in
which new technology enables abusers to spread evidence of their misdeeds as a
kind of perverse propaganda. This is NOT to say India as a whole, or even in
the main, is misogynist and ultra-patriarchal.

Another reason I'm calling this out as inaccurate is that it distances many
first-worlders (for example, myself in the USA) from such behavior, but we
know all too well that such behaviors are replicated at all levels of society
from the lowest and most impoverished ghettos to the most advantaged, wealthy,
and presumably cultured dynastic families.

Technology in the form of social media enables others to see it and, in this
particular instance, the distribution of the video documenting the crime has
the effect (intended or not) of further repressing women who would dare to
better themselves and their society (e.g. as health workers).

What really saddens me (as well as reinforces the idea that the dissemination
of the video reinforces misogyny) is the husband's reaction:

    
    
      > But in her home village, anger over Geeta's death is still
      > muted by questions about her honour. Even Geeta's own
      > husband, who eventually found out about the video from his
      > neighbours, shares the prevailing suspicion that she might
      > have done something to encourage the attack. "If she had
      > told me," he says, "we'd have asked her if it was done with
      > her consent. Then we'd have gathered the village elders to
      > decide what action should be taken." He shows no sign of
      > outrage about the rape, and has made no demands for police
      > action.
    

EDIT: Formatting, punctuation, grammar, readability.

~~~
ethanbond
Totally. We shouldn't be totally isolating ourselves and our own culture from
this abominable behavior.

Like every few months there's a similar story involving some top 10 football
team getting away with the same shit.

------
cm3
Some societies are worse than others, but if even in the self-proclaimed
modern civilization of the western world professionals in the adult
entertainment or sex/erotic services industry are treated like 2nd class
citizens, there's a need for a more substantial shift in perception and
treatment of something that's as natural as eating and sleeping. It's
unnatural that many societies have created ways to suppress human nature in
many ways they deem morally incorrect, and it's very wrong that laws reflect
the moral world views of some.

I won't go into how there used to be societies which in some regards were more
open and safer than today's, or how the treatment by a part of some religious
communities goes against those religions' core beliefs.

Empowering people to defend themselves and deal with abuse in a dignified way
is very important, and we first need to stop blaming victims as "promiscuous"
or "having asked for it". This isn't very different from how we treat people
who went to prison.

EDIT: We also need to find a good way to investigate accusations without
automatically assuming that, for instance, alleged male perpetrators are by
default considered (not found, to be clear) guilty, or that wives do not abuse
their husbands. The described societal defects are partly to blame, as are
underequipped/unskilled law enforcement or judicial departments. If someone
can lose their job and family because anybody merely publicly accuses them of
a sex crime or adultery, then it's clear we have a problem on the other end of
the spectrum. To me, both are caused by related societal flaws and will take a
long time to correct. Another way this surfaces is that people tend to worry
more about a government official's personal life than their positive/negative
acts in office.

~~~
cm3
KirinDave points out in a sibling comment that what I wrote here can be read
to blame rape victims. Under no circumstance is that the message I was trying
communicate, but I take full responsibility for failing to write an
unambiguous comment. I did not mean to blame the victim, and don't think I
did, but I'm willing to learn from my failed wording to not repeat in the
future. What I tried to express is that due to the way sexuality is handled in
most societies, we mistreat rape victims as a result. I'm sorry I failed to
convey that message clearly.

I'd be grateful if you can quote what parts can be read in a way that I didn't
intend them to be, and I'll either choose less ambiguous expressions or omit
the thought entirely, seeing how hard it is to communicate precisely.

~~~
tptacek
I don't see you as blaming rape victims. What I see instead is:

* A repetition of the trope that sexual culture is to blame for the impact of rape. Rape isn't sex, and prudishness what forced this woman to kill herself. Misogyny was. The issue in the culture we're describing --- and in its echoes in our own culture --- is the power dynamic between men and women, in which women are seen as having an obligation to somehow temper the sexual impulses of men they come into contact with, or else avoid men altogether.

* A diversion from what is a Handmaid's Tale-grade story about the victimization of women to the entirely unrelated topic of whether men suffer unduly from accusations of rape. That's particularly galling given the specifics of this story.

Whether you intended to or not, your comment --- which as Michele notes is at
the top of the thread --- had the clear effect of minimizing the tragedy and
injustice depicted in this story. I think we should be ashamed of this whole
HN thread, which is dominated more by whether the BBC's reporting was unfair
to a 400 billion dollar social networking company than by any kind of
reflection about what happened to the subject of the story.

I don't know you at all, and I make no claims about what your intent actually
was. I'm happy to assume that this was all unintentional. I'm writing about
your comment, not about you.

~~~
cm3
Thanks, now that you point it out, I can see how that part can overshadow the
whole comment and be read in a way I didn't intend to. I'll aim to do better
in future comments.

I admit that I'm less prepared to comment in a minefield topic like this than
I had thought, as my comment has been easily, and rightfully so,
misinterpreted. I'm sorry about that and grateful you do not assume too much.
Knowing the etymology of 'victim', it would never cross my mind to do so.

I agree with your explanation how rape and subsequent shaming and general
mistreatment is being facilitated, and I think the root cause is our
conflicted and unhealthy approach to sexuality. I don't think it would reach
the same effect if sexuality was a mundane topic, so that abuse can be treated
as a crime rather than, as you say, presented as disobedience by those in
positions of power and widespread misogyny in general. If it wasn't a taboo
topic, victims would probably be more inclined to come forward and falsely
accused but acquitted wouldn't be shunned as easily. That's the gist of my
theory, if I look at it like a programmer, a logician. How true that is in the
real world I don't know, and I'm sorry for not phrasing it as an open question
to begin with.

Basically I tried and failed to paint a complete picture how society prefers
to mark abuse victims as well as falsely accused perpetrators as personae non
grata rather than find solutions to the problem. Tragically, society fails so
much that it causes and is responsible for suicides. I blame society only, and
theorize that our inexcusably wrong approach to sexuality facilitates it.

Neither was I trying to say that her death is an inevitable outcome or that
men are somehow led to commit those heinous crimes. Thinking men have no
choice and have to be protected is why some wives have to wear veils. It's
wrong, at least 2300 years late in human society, and nothing I stand behind.
Seeing how my comment has been interpreted that way convinced me that I'm
unprepared to debate this topic in an international plaintext forum among
people who don't know each other personally. Sorry.

Any insensitivity I may have expressed in the comment is because I'm a
technically minded person first, thinking in terms of logic, and looking for
the root cause of a segfault (societal flaw). I guess I'll stay with technical
topics where there's a closed world with rules I can look up.

This thread, and your comment in particular, provided me with a more complete
picture than I had this morning. Thanks for pointing out the flaws and
incomplete parts of my thoughts. I believe in constructive criticism and open
debate, so asking someone "did you really mean .... or what is it you're
trying to say?" is my preferred approach rather than making assumptions, so
thanks. Also, yes, if we knew each other personally, you'd have been more
likely to correct me, knowing what kind of person I am. Thank you for not
reducing me to a utf-8 blob on HN.

~~~
grzm
I haven't read the thread that lead to this comment (though I'm about to), but
I would encourage you to continue, at your own pace, to engage in thinking
about topics like this. It sounds like you're a thoughtful person, and the
world needs more thoughtful people thinking about tough problems.

------
overcast
Spent the month of March in India this year. It's so sad how the poor, women,
and the overall environment are treated there. I think India has a lot to
offer the world, but they've got a long way to go cleaning up many aspects of
life there.

------
vehementi
This makes my blood boil. This is the kind of thing that makes me surprised
there aren't more vigilantes. Not from that dumpster fire village of course,
but from some nearby place whose reputation is tarnished by association. I
wouldn't condone that but given how furious I am right now I can't imagine
being physically and emotionally close to the situation in the first place and
there not being someone (perhaps more unstable) that wouldn't just go and take
vengeance.

> if by any chance they do lay their hands on a phone or use ear phones to
> listen to music, then they are branded 'characterless'"

@#$%!

------
raisedadead
I apologize for the incident, disgusted as I am with this, I just can't
seemingly imagine what the women in the article went through. These things
shove my proud Indian head into my own @#$%@!

Yet would like to lay a different perspective:

I am an Indian, an average tech professional, doing well in a good job, in a
good city. Yes, the majority of my country is conservative. Yes, we have views
that are biased against women. Do we have laws to protect them? Yes, we do. Do
we have agencies to enforce them? Yes, we do. Do we have resources to support
such agencies? Yes, we do.

Yet we see these incidents happening in tens of villages, towns, cities
happening every day. Sadly "MOST of them unreported", let alone, being
investigated, and the perpetrators getting tried and punished. Trust me on
this one, most walk away free, and that encourages them to do it yet again.

The BIG question is then why is a basic safety not in place? You would say,
isn't it the job of the law agencies to deal with this. Ugh, yeah... But
blooper, a very good chunk of them are "corrupt".

We are not backward in tech arena anymore, though we have WhatsApp in villages
where we still have 2 hours of electricity per day.

The technology is already in place, govt. orgs are all on Twitter, WhatsApp,
etc. Do respond to requests and complaints (yeah you can tweet to our railway
minister Mr.. Suresh Prabhu and he responds with immediate action, ex:
[https://twitter.com/baloomahapatra/status/792361492796637184](https://twitter.com/baloomahapatra/status/792361492796637184))

It's just that the majority of masses are not "technically" educated enough to
put it in use. They have access to weapons already (WhatsApp, Twitter,
Facebook), but just choose to use them against the good use they should be put
to. You don't need guns when you have a pen (now internet).

To me there are two possible ways to bring in some change to my sick country:

1) We tell the people of my country to take matters in their hand:
[https://www.theguardian.com/world/2005/sep/16/india.gender](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2005/sep/16/india.gender)

Yes, bring in the knives/guns, castrate the f@#$%ing bastards.

2) Educate, everyone when giving them access to the technology, the apps, the
whole internet what they should be doing with it.

The later is a more important step too. Google started an initiative to
provide free high-speed internet access at major railway stations, and here is
what Patna (capital of Bihar state) did with their free wifi card:
[http://www.huffingtonpost.in/2016/10/17/patna-is-the-
no-1-us...](http://www.huffingtonpost.in/2016/10/17/patna-is-the-no-1-user-of-
googles-free-wi-fi-at-railway-stati/)

Yes, Porn.

~~~

The whole point that I want to lay on the table, is we DESPERATELY need to
bridge the gap between the cultural conservative "backwardness" and the rapid
pace at which we are being given these tech gizmos to play with.

I beg with my folded hands to the govt. To please use my tax money (increase
it if need be), to educate the agencies, the village elders, the women who go
out to those "doomed" towns of mine, and most IMPORTANTLY the god damned
f%$#$# bastard perpetrators that the tech is there to make this country a much
better place than it is.

I am doing what I am able to, but if you are reading this please wish my
country gets well soon.

I am a proud Indian, in just 70 years we are beating the world to Mars, yet we
have burning infernos in the towns, villages, and there are no fire trucks
nearby.

~~~
alphapapa
> I beg with my folded hands to the govt. To please use my tax money (increase
> it if need be), to educate the agencies, the village elders, the women who
> go out to those "doomed" towns of mine, and most IMPORTANTLY the god damned
> f%$#$# bastard perpetrators that the tech is there to make this country a
> much better place than it is.

May I respectfully suggest that this is the wrong way to try to solve the
problem.

Governments do not fix societies--they break them by the ruling class's
manipulating society to remain in power. We see this even in the "first-world"
nations like the U.S.

In contrast, societies fix governments when the governments are comprised of
the societies they govern. Of course, this is only effective up to the level
of virtue of the society in question.

Expecting government to fix society is putting the cart before the horse.
Thinking that the government is (or should be) the horse that drags along the
society cart is part of the problem. It's like expecting the tail to wag the
dog. On the contrary, society is like the horse which drags the burden of a
cart behind it.

Fixing a society requires the good members of it to get their hands dirty, not
to outsource the job to their government. Easier said than done, but no less
true.

~~~
raisedadead
Yes, totally true, and agreed.

But when the society is way too huge, it's a different game altogether.
Compare 1.25 billion people to 310 million in the U.S

In a complex society as India, the challenge to actually execute a "good"
change is closer towards the impossible side.

We have 18 official languages spoken in 27 different states, where the
dialects change every 12 km (7.5 miles). We have at least 5 major religions,
not to mention countless castes and ethnicities. There are just literally
thousands and thousands of groups.

While the common vested interest of staying in power remains the same, the
number of good members who can make a significant (practical) impact with
honest intent is simply insignificant. And on top of that, these few members
are split amongst these many many groups, creating an utter chaos.

This may not be the case for other societies for instance in U.S where most
players in the society are literate and educated sufficiently to the leverage
tech to get a clear picture of what actually the govt. is up to.

Sadly in India, most well-educated masses including myself lead lives that
feed their families, which leaves very few brave members to clean up the mess
that we have created.

And of course, the bad members use this opportunity to bend the govt. and the
society to their best interests.

So while a perfect solution would be to practically difficult.

But, as an honest citizen, I think that education can do wonders. If people
are empowered to challenge the govt. when it fails its job, then I think new
good members will be born.

Don't you agree? Sorry about the long post, I agree that asking govt. to
educate society is not the solution, but "educating society to use technology
correctly" on an emergency basis is. Given the state of the affairs, govt. (at
least the current one) is perhaps the best vector to deliver it.

~~~
alphapapa
Yes, and thanks for your comment. It is indeed a very complex problem without
any simple solutions.

Education seems like a good start, but of course it raises the questions of
who will teach and what they will teach. As history shows, teaching the wrong
things can have very bad results. If the people making the decisions and doing
the teaching are good, maybe it will turn out well. But if those people are
not good, the end result could be tragic on a colossal scale.

> If people are empowered to challenge the govt. when it fails its job, then I
> think new good members will be born.

This is very important and insightful. I think it's also important that
government be close to the people, i.e. power being distributed among many
smaller bodies.

------
kyle-w
This makes me so angry and upset.

Facebook shouldn't just be holding developer conferences every year. This is
way outside the scope of what Tech Companies skill sets can handle. There has
to be open public acknowledgement of that at the highest levels and not just
the usual PR.

Unintended consequences of tech have to be treated in the same way we treat
high priority bugs.

------
0xmohit

      The court also asked the IT Ministry to examine what measures
      could be taken to block the online circulation of such videos.
    

Wonder what can be done to block such incidents when ministers in Indian
Parliament watch porn.

[http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-02-09/indian-mps-busted-
for-...](http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-02-09/indian-mps-busted-for-watching-
porn/3819490)

[http://www.deccanherald.com/content/225344/karnataka-
ministe...](http://www.deccanherald.com/content/225344/karnataka-minister-
caught-watching-porn.html)

~~~
AlexeyBrin
> Wonder what can be done to block such incidents when ministers in Indian
> Parliament watch porn.

This has nothing to do with _watching_ porn. Plenty of men watch porn and
don't rape anyone.

It has everything to do with a culture that blames the victim of a rape for
the actual rape.

~~~
drspacemonkey
While I don't disagree with you at all, the fact that "ministers in Indian
Parliament watch porn" is meant _literally_ makes me wonder what kind of
overlap there is. These are elected officials watching porn on their phones
during parliamentary sessions. I'm not saying that one causes the other, just
that they both might be symptomatic of a related root cause.

~~~
dennisgorelik
Yes: that root cause is that men want sex. Now that you know that common cause
- what's your next logical step?

