
Is Wine Bullshit? - jejune06
http://priceonomics.com/is-wine-bullshit/
======
rsync
I love wine. I am skeptical about the same things the article is skeptical
about. I don't put much stock in price.

One thing I know, though, is that I am getting sick and tired of the "tinted
the white wine red and fooled them all" anecdote as it has very little
substance.

Any wine, white or red, can express a huge range of flavor and texture, etc.,
and there is absolutely no reason to suspect a "red" wine is actually a white
wine. You'll note that the study does not indicate the testers thought it was
a great red wine, or any particular red wine - just that they did not question
it was red. That's not nearly the indictment it's made out to be. In fact,
it's not an indictment at all.

Assigning too much value, or "enjoyment" to price ? Fair critique. Describing
wines with bizarre descriptors like "asphalt" ? Fair critique. Dubious claims
of "terroir" ? Fair critique.

But the "fooled them with white wine" test is meaningless.

~~~
andolanra
Has anybody actually _read_ the original study?[1] Brochet did not serve the
wines to "wine experts". From the study, emphasis mine: "The wine comparison
test was carried out by 54 _undergraduates_ from the Faculty of Oenology of
the University of Bordeaux. The sex ratio was 1:1."

Somehow, the results were transformed into, "Wine experts cannot tell the
difference between red and white wine!" but that's not a thesis supported by
the original paper. What we _can_ conclude is that French undergrads sometimes
use similar words to describe both red wines and red-tinted white wines... and
that's about it.

[1]:
[http://www.stanford.edu/class/linguist62n/morrot01colorofodo...](http://www.stanford.edu/class/linguist62n/morrot01colorofodors.pdf)

~~~
rpedroso
They're not just any undergrad students, they were Oenology students -- they
might not be experts, but they certainly know more about classifying wines by
scent, flavor profile, etc than a layperson.

~~~
toyg
Undergraduates in most settings will still be extremely prone to conform to
recently-acquired knowledge as dogma, probably even more likely than a
layperson. "Uh, they said data must be normalized, so here's 15 db tables to
represent an employee..." maps the same as "Uh, they told me to use this and
this word for red wines, so here's this and this word..."

The paper implies that they sampled "experts", when they really just sampled
"students" or "disciples". Quite the difference.

(Besides, it's dramatic how scientific research keeps oversampling university
undergraduates to such a large extent, purely out of practicality.)

------
brokenparser
Wine ain't bullshit, they finally managed to release a version which runs AoE2
with readable fonts! Lots of applications are working just fine, often the
only thing that's broken is the copy protection scheme (they do nasty shit
like installing device drivers).

~~~
dgunn
Hmmm... I really expected you to break and at least hint that you were
joking...

~~~
dllthomas
I think it's better this way...

~~~
dgunn
agreed

------
memset
Let's talk about something akin to the "malolactic fermentation" bit.

Red wines are red because when they ferment the juice, they leave the grape
peels in the barrel. The peel's color is what give a wine that dark red color
hue. (Try squeezing the juice out of red grapes. You'll find that the outcome
doesn't have the same color as red wine!)

Now, peels have things called "tannins" which give fruit peels their bitter
flavor.

If you've ever had tea which was steeped for a very long time, and is thus
very bitter, you are tasting tannins.

Which is an interesting point - we would all easily tell the difference
between strongly-brewed tea and mild tea. Or coffee. And we might have a
preference for one versus the other.

The taste of wine - being that it is "brewed" in grape skins - is affected in
an identical way! But we never ask "is tea bullshit?" because we can all very
well tell the difference between certain flavors of tea.

This is why the "red food coloring" part gets to me. A red wine that was
lightly steeped is likely to taste similar to a white wine! There's not enough
information to know.

This is not to say that marketing, color, price, etc are not huge factors in
the enjoyment of wine.

But at the end of the day, the taste of wine is affected by the same things
that would affect any other fruit or leaf-based food, so the idea that wine is
any more bullshit than eggs, maple syrup, or tea doesn't really coincide with
our personal experiences.

------
obviouslygreen
Nope! Wine isn't bullshit. Painfully overpriced _anything_ is bullshit, but
then that usually (as in this case) ends up being a matter of opinion.

I'm a fan of Scotch whiskey, and I think Johnny Walker Blue Label is usually
worth the price. Would it be worth it to someone who doesn't already enjoy
Scotch? Absolutely not; it'd taste like turpentine, and turpentine is cheap.

I'm also a fan of very dark beer. Is Young's Double Chocolate Stout bullshit?
Sure as hell not to me, but my girlfriend would probably tell you it's awful
shit, so clearly to her it is.

So much of so many things is subjective. This is one of them, and it's one of
those times where your opinion, my opinion, and everyone else's opinion is
worth exactly dick (and yet they're all worth exactly the same amount of
dick). If you like it as much as the person who priced it, then yeah, perhaps
it's worth it to you; if not, then yeah, it's bullshit. _To you_. Just don't
try to declare that particular amount as an objective measurement. :)

~~~
bradleyjg
There does seem to be some sort of difference between the beer world (and to a
lesser extent scotch) and the wine world.

Not one single beer enthusiast is going to confuse a Rochefort with a Dogfish
Head IPA. Doesn't matter what bottle it comes in, or if you are blindfolded or
what. Same thing with Laphroaig and Dewers. There are simply different drinks.

Now it is entirely possible, probable even, that marketing, labeling and price
has an effect on which beers or scotches you identify as good, but that's
different from treating things that are indistinguishable as distinguishable.

~~~
munificent
The thing I really like about beer culture is that it isn't price focused.
There are a few niches of beer where the price starts to go up, but most beers
are in the same ballpark price-wise.

Every culture has rules about how you wave your banner and show people how
into that culture you are. With wine culture, it seems a lot of that is
through price and rarity. With beer, that sometimes comes into play, but it's
equally likely to be with IBU, darkness, or local expertise.

I'm not a fan of the hops-gamesmanship that goes on, but I do like that beer
culture celebrates variety and small breweries as much as it does "famous",
exclusive beers. For every Rochefort, there are ten Abitas, Lagunitases, etc.
that are just as well loved.

------
samatman
Enjoyable article, which misses an important point: the quality of cheap wine
has increased markedly in the last 30 years. It isn't that the fine old wines
don't deserve their reputation; it's the difference between Gallo in the
gallon jug and Charles Shaw that's remarkable.

~~~
agravier
Yes. Practically, that means that you should try the cheaper wines from your
markets / supermarkets, they can be perfectly satisfying. It's actually harder
to find wine that's total "bullshit" nowadays!

~~~
switch007
Oh, Tesco stocks a lot of crap in the £5-10 range. I often pick a random
bottle and only one or two have been OK.

Their generic bottles (e.g. 'Australian Red'/'Spanish White' or something like
that) are pretty good for the price. Most are under £5.

~~~
agravier
No Tesco here in Malta :)

------
conductr
I tend to think the price of wine has much more to do with _prior_ vintages
than the current one in the bottle.

A winery is a brand, they build a strong brand by consistently producing good
tasting wine (also: advertising, PR, etc). So, when you pay top dollar you
should have an increased likelihood of enjoying the wine just bought. It
doesn't mean you will though.

On the flip side, cheap wines may actually taste great. They just haven't
built up a reputation for that yet, maybe if they do things right their price
per bottle will triple over the next 3 years. You never know.

I think this explains most of the price disparity within a certain range...
let's say between $0-$150 / bottle. Anything priced above that range, is
probably more driven by something else. Could be more advertising,
"collectors" bidding the price up, limited production, etc. - for the most
part it's "irrational" (for lack of a better word) and has nothing to do with
taste.

------
mmaunder
Just spent a year in Aquitane on the right bank of the Gironde (where Bordeaux
wines come from) and can confirm that quality in wine is in fact bullshit.
(not wine, but the idea of quality in wine)

Just looking at the difference between left and right bank prices and a
complete lack if difference in quality is telling.

Also that the 5 first growth producers are rated as such for historical
reasons and no-one gets into the exclusive club - and yet Premier Cru is used
as an indication of quality in wine.

Quality in wine was real back when the idea of hygiene in producing wine and
the knowledge of wine making was not shared and access to labs was limited. No
longer and so unless you're screwing up a well known process, you're going to
get it pretty darn right.

So wine quality is bullshit, but is wine bullshit? I don't think so. Lets put
it this way: If you fly first-class, there's something a little more than the
bigger seats and better food that you enjoy. It's the idea of flying first
class.

And so while a bottle from most decent chateaux on the right bank may be of
equal quality to the left bank (left bank is where all the major chateaux are
based) and yet much cheaper, you're still going to really enjoy the idea that
you're drinking a bottle of 1990 Margaux as several connoisseurs jealously
watch your every sip and explain how you're drinking one of the best vintages
of one of the 5 best chateaux in the world.

------
droithomme
On the Charles Shaw aka "two buck chuck", it's famous because it won an award
when it was $2. How this brand works is buying the unwanted discard grapes
from other wineries and then having them bottled. There is no consistency.
Most years it is not very good. But, there was a glut of grapes on the market
some years ago which allowed Charles Shaw to buy good quality grapes at a very
low clearance price, which created a brief bubble where they had good wine for
cheap. Since then they have been buying, as they do, the low priced, and low
quality grapes, and the wine is not that great. It also has not been priced at
$2 for some time. But, a lot of people know the story that "two buck chuck won
some sort of award" and so they buy it and talk about how good it is even
though it's pretty bad. Well good for them, they are happy and not spending a
lot. I fail to see that that is a problem.

So when the journalists in 2013 trot it out and claim it is an award winning
wine for $2, that shows instantly the journalist knows absolutely nothing
about the wine market.

Since this happens in the opening paragraph in this article, it saves a lot of
time reading.

~~~
luminiferous
The inconsistency of two buck chuck can be turned into a fun game though. My
friends like to each buy a bottle from each pallet and try them in the parking
lot. If any of them turn out to be good, they go back in and buy the whole
pallet.

------
the_cat_kittles
This reminded me of a basic consumer thing that must have a name and several
good discussions, could someone help me out here? The thing (framed as wine)-

Lots of people like some accessible, simple tasty wine. Some keep drinking it,
others develop a taste for some other wine based on their initial like of the
first wine. Some of that group then develop another taste based on the second
(which was based on the first), and so on. The point is that by getting one
wine a couple times, you tire of it, and it also prepares you
palette/preferences to really like something that has some continuities and
some contrasts with it. It seems like the audience narrows as you go through
each step, partially because you probably won't appreciate the Nth wine until
you have gone through the others, in order more or less. As you go along this
chain, you are more willing to pay higher and higher the further you go.

Some other chains I could think of like this (minus the "paying more as you
go" where it doesn't really apply): Music genres, Coffee (almost any food
really), Fetish porn, Text editors, so many more...

What is this concept called?

~~~
archangel_one
There are things in economics called Veblen goods
([http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veblen_good](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veblen_good))
which become more desirable as they become more expensive. They seem related,
but not exactly the same phenomenon you describe.

------
grandalf
Here is my heuristic:

\- Look for a screw-cap bottle of wine priced about $14-18. This price point
gets you a bottle that is likely worth the extra few bucks over the bottom-
tier pricing ($2-$12 range) and which is able to avoid having to use a cork to
appear sophisticated. Screw-tops are associated with cheap wine, so any wine
that has one and still commands a market price above bargain basement ($2-$10)
is likely decent.

\- Also, European countries heavily subsidize the wine industry, so it's
possible to get great wine for around €8. In America those might end up
costing $15-$20 but they are still a better value than most $30-$40 American
wine (which is overpriced b/c of the super expensive real estate it is grown
on and lack of subsidy).

~~~
mblakele
Not bad. Also look for names that might be difficult to remember. Many buyers
go entirely by name or label design, so a good wine with a bad name will tend
to sell at a discount.

------
sliverstorm
I think this article is focusing on the high end of things. I personally had
little difficulty distinguishing between a $5 wines and a $20 wine- that is,
until I started to develop a taste for harsher drinks. (Now all wine, even the
cheap stuff, tastes smooth as silk)

 _If you boycott expensive wine, should you also avoid sushi and seafood
restaurants because you know that cheap fish can be just as enjoyable?_

 _Inexpensive_ fish might be just as enjoyable, but what about one of the most
common varieties of _cheap_ fish- that is to say, week-old fish? Is it just as
enjoyable?

Oh, and last thought- how can people be tricked into thinking a white is a
red? I can see the "floral hints" and "buttery accents" being easy to confuse,
but the reds I like are extremely dry, and every white I've ever had is sweet
and sticky, sometimes even saccharine. Are there whites and reds that blur
this boundary?

~~~
jmduke
_I think this article is focusing on the high end of things. I personally had
little difficulty distinguishing between a $5 wines and a $20 wine- that is,
until I started to develop a taste for harsher drinks. (Now all wine, even the
cheap stuff, tastes smooth as silk)_

What do you mean by harsher drinks? I can (and do, fondly) drink whiskey
straight but I can't get into the taste of red wine.

~~~
sliverstorm
Scotch, IPAs, double IPAs, etc. I found cheap reds were mostly distinguished
by thinly veiled alcohol content and bitterness, but the difference in
bitterness between a good wine and a poor wine is much smaller than the
difference between a poor wine and a glass of scotch.

As for not enjoying the taste, my tongue is not yours, but is your issue
simply with the flavor? Or do you find it too bitter/alcoholic? If it was the
former, that's a matter of taste. If it was the latter, I would indeed be
surprised given your affection for whiskey.

------
chrisgd
I have had a $100 bottle of wine that I loved and a $100 bottle that I didn't.
Same is true of a $10 bottle. Overall, I know what regions and years I tend to
like. Which is something the article doesn't really mention. The 2005 growing
season in New Zealand was awesome and a lot of Central Otago Pinot Noirs for
that season are unavailable, which drove the price up future seaons. Some have
been good, others haven't. There is no way to tell someone what taste they
will like nor what seasons are going to be great. But if you find a region you
like (syrah from the russian river valley), try other years. Contact the
winemaker and see if you can get on their mailing list, possibly buy futures.

~~~
djKianoosh
Similarly, 2009-2010 Malbecs from Mendoza Argentina are very nice and you can
get them anywhere between $10-20.

------
ctdonath
Such questions are based on the consumer premise of "I like it, so it's good".

A connoisseur is someone who can say "I don't like it, but it's good."

~~~
Symmetry
What's there to be good or bad about wine, apart from people liking it?

~~~
jlgreco
The skill with which it is crafted, and the extent to which it matches its
platonic prototype.

Think of dog shows. Regardless of how you think your dog looks best, the
judges are still looking for a defined perfection that may not be to their
choosing.

The problem enters when people start adopting the language of subjectivity and
opinion to describe these things. That is when people start calling them
"snobs".

------
eridius
Regardless of what you think of wine, trying to extend this to cover things
like sushi, or beer, or cheese, seems like a mistake. Yes, taste is
subjective, and that affects other things too than just wine, but the cultural
expectations of other foods are different than with wine.

Take for example sushi. Yes I'm sure there are plenty of sushi restaurants
that substitute cheaper fish when they think their customers won't notice. But
these aren't going to be particularly good sushi restaurants to begin with,
I'd wager. If you go into a really _good_ sushi restaurant, and order Omakase
(where you sit at the bar and the sushi chef serves you whatever he wants to),
you're going to get the best fish the restaurant has, and you're really going
to taste the difference.

~~~
ctdonath
Yes, taste is subjective, it also has objective properties which can be
understood and reveal meaning beyond simple "like/don't".

Wine, sushi, coffee, steak ... all certainly revel in their subjective "I like
it" properties, but also have discernible properties which few have sampled &
studied enough to have reliable understanding and meaningful opinions on. The
better wines I've had usually correspond to higher prices. Omakase (thanks for
the tip) is served by someone who knows _why_ , objectively, it will taste
better. Few people have had really good coffee (let me roast & brew you a
cup), so they don't know that such flavors can even exist, why they occur, and
don't consider making anything of it when experienced unexpected (beyond a
momentary "hey, that's good"). Steakhouse offerings can be indistinguishable
from what comes off the backyard grill ... or can be moments of enlightenment
(my word that one at Stoney River 6 years ago was incredible, and the one that
preceded it at the same sitting was worth sending back for replacement).

The problem with such popular "$5 and $500 wines are indistinguishable"
pronouncements is they rally people around ignorance. While, sure, poor
expensive wines and cheap good ones exist, most people don't understand what
they're tasting enough to develop an appreciation thereof. There _are_
objective differences, and once those are understood your whole perspective on
"good" changes.

------
nknighthb
> _should you also avoid sushi and seafood restaurants because you know that
> cheap fish can be just as enjoyable_

Uh, yeah. Sure. I'll just head to my local grocer and grab whatever cheap
salmon they've got sitting out, take it home, and make nigiri out of it.

You'll be paying my medical bills, right?

~~~
kryten
Hell I used to eat fish I yanked out of the dirty stink hole that was the
river Thames in London when I was a kid in the 1980's.

Still here three decades later.

Not everything is going to kill you.

~~~
splat
I agree with your point, but have to note that this is perhaps the most
literal example of survivor's bias I have ever seen.

~~~
kryten
Or is it just how the majority of the planet live other than yourself?

I've been around a bit and the whole extreme food hygiene thing is pretty much
irrelevant in most of the world.

This is not "survivor bias". That's an arrogant term used to deride people.

For reference, I also tend to eat mushrooms and plants I find (I know what I'm
doing in that department).

------
ambiate
I enjoy all Priceonomics articles. I also enjoy the service they provide to
users. I hope the experience at that company is as enjoyable to work for as
the content is to consume. I started using the service after reading the blog
posts from HN. The blog has the right dash of math, data, and readability. The
blog reinforces the company's structure and path while building a great image.

It saddens me that they have not penetrated the market as expected. I am still
hopeful they will find another feature to make their site reap the well
deserved rewards.

~~~
sgarman
This reads like an advertisement straight from a spam bot. I guess I'm jaded.

~~~
gknoy
If it helps, I find the priceonomics articles like this unfailingly
interesting. I'm not a customer, but it's one of the subsets of posts here on
HN which I actually look forward to encountering. They answer questions I've
had in ways I hadn't thought of, or present new questions that hadn't occurred
to me but which have interesting data-backed answers.

------
mrxd
There's a Youtube series called 'So you think you know wine'
[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MGNMpqfwhUk](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MGNMpqfwhUk)

Each episode is a blind taste teste of a single wine with 4 experts who are
asked to guess the varietal, country, region, year and price. They don't
always get it right, but they're significantly more accurate than you would
expect if wine was a hoax.

~~~
Anonymous238
Thanks for the video. One interesting point, they're determining the price
based on their knowledge of wine, and how much a wine of that variety, grown
in that particular region should cost to produce. At no point do they
associate taste directly with the price. I think this helps to illustrate we
should be trying wines from different regions, rather than different price
points. Find a region and variety that you enjoy, and then find a bottle
that's priced fairly for what you're buying.

------
peterwwillis
It's not bullshit, it's a verschränkung. The answer is dictated by the
consumer and market you observe.

Some consumers will say yes, it's bullshit! They will buy the cheapest bottle
that tastes decent enough to drink on a regular basis. Both the budget of the
average consumer and their lack of interest in becoming experts on a drink
will create an expanded market of low-priced wines.

Then there will be those that say, no, it's definitely not bullshit! Their
higher income combined with the belief that there's intrinsic undefinable
value to wines produced a certain way will create a separate market for high-
end wines. The higher prices they pay offsets the smaller market.

Wine is both bullshit and not bullshit at the same time, and it can stay that
way forever because of the two separate motivations of its consumers and the
two subtly distinct markets. Regardless of any other factors people are not
going to stop drinking wine anytime soon (especially considering putting a
different label on will change how it's observed)

I'd wager there's a whole array of products like this, for example designer
clothes vs bargain clothes. At the end of the day you just need to keep from
being naked.

------
bitwize
I wouldn't say wine is bullshit. But it does have a light bullshit aroma,
backed by flim-flam notes and an astringent scam aftertaste.

------
mililani
I personally think that if you can't tell the difference between an $X
product, and a $10X product, you are on the path to good frugal living and $$$
in your pocket.

Also, you can only put so much stock into what other people or studies say.
Ultimately, you have to take the dive and try things out for yourself. What I
mean is, by 2 buck chuck, and test it against $10 wines, and $10 wines against
$100 wines, etc... I've done this many times not just with wines, but coffees,
cheeses, tomatoes, etc... After all this, I've concluded that the price
difference isn't worth it, and whatever differences there are is very
subjective to me.

------
bane
Fun definition: the definition of a good wine is the wine you like to drink.

Real definition: the difference between good wines and bad wines is the
complexity of the flavor. Crap wines usually have a very narrow and
uncomplicated flavor profile, wines that are more likely to be enjoyed have
more complex profiles. What makes it confusing is that different kinds of
wines have radically different flavor profiles: a Pinot Noir has a "lighter
flavor" than a Cabernet Sauvignon. The $2 a gallon wines at the local gas
station are unlikely to have a complex flavor profile, and that's why people
call them "crap".

Also, contrary to popular belief, wine blends aren't necessarily a sign of a
bad wine, due to local soil conditions (which provide different nutrient
ratios and can change the flavor profile quite a bit) some varieties of grapes
grow fine, but don't produce the desired complex flavor profile. Vintners
blends wines from several sources like a recipe to "build up" the flavor
profile they wish for.

To learn to drink wine, simply try lots of them, try them by themselves and
with different foods. Some are better paired with certain foods (the food
diminishes or accents certain parts of the wine's flavor), or by themselves.
Don't spend lots of money on wine, the "sweet" spot to me for good wines tends
to be between $7-$14 per 750ml at the store (the exact same wines will be
about 3x that at a restaurant). Costco seems to be about the cheapest place to
buy good wines, a $10 wine there is consistently $12-15 elsewhere. If you go
to a winery, expect to pay around $20-30 for a bottle. Find what you like and
TADA! You've found a good wine.

There are essentially two kinds of wineries, ones that grow their own grapes,
and ones that buy grapes from other farms and ferment the wine themselves.
Most wineries will also buy wines from other local wineries for their blends.
There's nothing wrong with it and it's just how winemaking works.

Wine drinking is an acquired taste, many wines might be harsh or unpleasant on
first sip, and by the bottom of the glass sublime. The taste might change a
bit as you work your way through a bottle. When you read that wine has "hints
of spice and plums" or whatever, it's just a way of describing the profile to
you and what you might be able to expect. "Plum" might describe a deep fruity
flavor (not sweet), "tobacco" describes some of the bitter tannins that come
from the skins.

Wines also change flavor as they sit in storage. Some wines don't develop
their full flavor profile until a couple years after they're bottled. Some
wines are intended to be enjoyed almost immediately (Nouveaus).

Try wines from different places, the normal French styles are popular, but
there are some incredibly good local varieties that aren't well known outside
of their home countries (and are usually very cheap). Spain and Italy in
particular have a rich and complex wine culture easily as great as France.
Many popular varieties are also grown in places outside of France. California
for example grows lots of traditional French varieties. Areas not necessarily
known for good wine might actually mean that they don't have the right kind of
soil or climate to grow these popular varieties. Virginia, for example, is too
wet to grow really good Cabernets, but there are almost entirely unknown
grapes bred just for Virginia that are excellent.

Wine glasses are intended for your nose rather than your tongue. They're
designed as recognition that about half of our flavor comes from our noses, so
different shapes of the glass are intended to help deliver vaporizing parts of
the wine to your nose to help build up the flavor profile.

Wine drinking is not snobby, in places with a very long wine drinking history,
wine is the normal table drink. It's nothing unusual to sit down in a
reasonably priced family restaurant, order a plate of the local whatever and
get a 500ml carafe of house wine as part of the order instead of water. It
probably won't be great wine (might even be cut with a bit of water), but
it'll go fine with the meal. In history, wine was the "safe" alternative to
water, priests, construction workers, delivery men, soldiers, etc. all drank
wine as part of their normal day-to-day.

Think nothing of sitting outside on your porch with a bottle of Merlot and a
red plastic solo cup if you enjoy it.

A few of my personal favorites (all between $9-14 at Costco):

[http://www.wine.com/v6/Penfolds-Koonunga-Hill-Shiraz-
Caberne...](http://www.wine.com/v6/Penfolds-Koonunga-Hill-Shiraz-
Cabernet-2010/wine/114071/detail.aspx)

[http://www.wine.com/v6/Santa-Rita-Reserva-Cabernet-
Sauvignon...](http://www.wine.com/v6/Santa-Rita-Reserva-Cabernet-
Sauvignon-2009/wine/115793/detail.aspx)

[http://www.winesu.com/zaccagnini-
montepulciano.html](http://www.winesu.com/zaccagnini-montepulciano.html)

[http://www.wine.com/v6/Excelsior-Cabernet-
Sauvignon-2010/win...](http://www.wine.com/v6/Excelsior-Cabernet-
Sauvignon-2010/wine/115179/detail.aspx) (about $6 at Costco with a twist off
top!)

~~~
steve19
Many countries have abandoned corks and go with twist tops instead, except
when they export to countries that associate corks with quality. I hate corks,
I can't wait for the whole world to adopt twist tops.

~~~
valisystem
Your hell will be plastic foam corks. And those win hands up for medium
duration of storage : they have some of the properties of the classic corks
and let the wine breath a little (twists tops do not), with no disadvantages.

They are used more and more in low-mid range of wines in France, and nobody
complains about it.

Still it does not cut it for more than a year or two of storage.

~~~
virtualwhys
Yes, always disappointed when a plastic cork is revealed, a lousy glass
usually follows, followed by pouring the rest down the drain.

Of course, 4 or 5 Euros in France usually does the trick for table wine (with
a real cork to boot); imagine in the States the same bottle will run $25+

~~~
bane
You can usually find decent French wines in the States for $12-15 if you shop
at the right places. Most wine specialty stores tend to overprice (and at
restaurants they'll easily run $30-50).

I don't like the plastic corks myself, they seem inordinately hard to pull out
of the bottle.

------
DannoHung
I thought the whole issue was that people trying to snob you were full of it
and that you oughta just buy whatever you enjoy and tell 'em to ram it up
their snout.

------
cobrausn
I've been drinking red wine quite a bit ever since I met my wife 8 years ago
(her family is Italian). I can finally, after this long, begin to taste the
various flavor differences and describe them in a meaningful way.

I've had expensive bottles I thought were 'meh', and cheap bottles I thought
were the greatest thing ever. So I'll agree that wine price is determined by a
number of factors, the least of which is flavor.

------
laurentoget
Is it really? Or maybe the bullshit is the fundamental assumption of economics
that you can understand human behavior by equating them to a set of agents
maximizing some mythical utility function, and the temptation to see the world
through those reductionist lenses.

No, buying $2000 bottles of wine probably is not worth it in terms of
maximizing any utility function, but i would argue it is precisely the point.

~~~
theorique
_No, buying $2000 bottles of wine probably is not worth it in terms of
maximizing any utility function, but i would argue it is precisely the point._

It maximizes the "Look at me, bitches - I'm so rich I can spend $2000 on wine"
utility function.

------
fixxer
There are many great bargain wines out there, true. But, I would not call all
wine bullshit.

Those $300-$400 bottles are, IMO, complete bullshit compared to most $100
bottles, which are in turn bullshit compared to many $50 bottles (I've been a
Williams-Selyem subscriber for a decade now)... which are in turn bullshit to
a _ton_ of great cheap wine from S. America.

I also like two (err, $3?) buck chuck.

And vodka.

------
mathattack
I really enjoy wine. But - yes it is bullsh _t. It 's just a higher class of
bullsh_t...

Roman Weil (an accounting professor who decided he was more interested in wine
than FASB rules) did some empirical analysis on the topic. Here's a paper
where he finds that most people can't tell a good year from a bad year on
similar wines.

[http://faculty.chicagobooth.edu/roman.weil/research/Parker-P...](http://faculty.chicagobooth.edu/roman.weil/research/Parker-
Prial.pdf)

It isn't just that prefer the wrong one, it's that they can't tell the
difference. He's done similar studies on "Reserve" wines versus regular, and
again most people can't tell the difference, and the ones who do don't
necessarily like the better one. He also demonstrated that people can't
identify wine based on the tasting notes.

Does this mean wine's not worth drinking? Certainly not. But it encourages a
little humility.

------
thejj
lol the first thing i thought this article is about was the wine software from
winehq.org :)

~~~
donpdonp
my first thought was 'hey, wine has come a long way since the early days'.
this is hackernews, not vinternews.

------
raverbashing
Remember that thing about headlines that are questions?!

The same applies here. Especially with such sensationalised and over
generalizing headline.

Drink your wine and enjoy it, you don't need to go to the higher priced wines.

And anybody should be able to tell a $2 wine apart from a $10 one (or better,
alcoholic grape juice from wine)

~~~
ctdonath
To those who don't remember that thing:

For any headline which asks a yes/no question, the correct answer is always
"no."

------
dpeck
Yes.

So is beer, whiskey, fashion, electronic gadgets, and lots of other things.
But our perception being altered is part of the experience, and if you need to
know that it cost a bit more to do it then good for you and if you get your
kicks knowing that it cost just a few dollars then thats fine too.

~~~
snorkel
Fashion products are very overpriced compared to their quality, but in fashion
you're intentionally overpaying for the bragging right of having too much
disposable income.

What's remarkable about wine is you're paying extra not for vanity or features
(unless it's for a date or a gift) but for some added taste quality that is
probably skewed by knowing the price of the bottle: your brain has the
expectation that more expensive wine actually tastes better, so your paying
for something that may not even be there, and yet wine drinkers seldom feel
enough buyers remorse to stop buying expensive wines.

~~~
lmm
>is you're paying extra not for vanity or features (unless it's for a date or
a gift)

When else would you get wine? I don't think I've ever bought wine that wasn't
for a social occasion (except in college, but then I bought the cheapest stuff
I could find).

~~~
DanBC
> When else would you get wine?

Some people like drinking it. They'll have a glass or two after a long day at
work. But that probably means half a bottle of wine.

This kind of long term, regular, drinking of not-excessive amounts is
worrying, especially among women. They don't see it as harmful, when it
probably is.

([http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-16000520](http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-
england-16000520))

> _Hospital consultants in north-east England have reported seeing an
> "epidemic" in the number of people in their early 30s with alcoholic liver
> disease._

([http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-15129887](http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-15129887))
- this article talks about units of alcohol. 1 unit of wine is 125 ml at 8%
ABV. This is a tiny glass of weak wine. Most wine is at least 10% ABV, or
stronger, and a normal glass would be 175 ml or 200 ml.
([https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Units_of_alcohol_cha...](https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Units_of_alcohol_chart.svg))

([http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-20410378](http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-20410378))

etc etc.

------
purplelobster
Some people are just convinced they can see/hear/taste the difference between
expensive things and their cheap counterparts, and there is no research that
can sway their minds. I guess it makes them happy to think that so I let them,
it doesn't seem to hurt anybody.

~~~
ctdonath
Some people are just convinced nobody else can see/hear/taste the difference
between expensive things and their cheap counterparts, and there is no
research that can sway their minds. I guess it makes them happy to think that
so I let them, and continue to enjoy the finer things which they don't.

------
ebiester
Wait a second...

A wine's price indicates three things:

1\. Its cost of production. An ice wine, for example, costs more to produce
because the cold climate in which it is produced leads to poor harvests. A
more expensive production may take prune their trees more, giving a particular
quality to their (eventual) grape juice. Some technology allows for more
efficient processing of grapes. Cork is more expensive than screw top.

2\. The supply and quantity demanded of said wine.

The cost matters in that it sets the amount of supply. Knowing that most
people are going to be unwilling to pay 35 bucks for a bottle of ice wine, not
much is produced.

There are plenty of good, inexpensive wines. This isn't 1949 where an
inexpensive bottle of wine is going to be little different than vinegar.

~~~
green7ea
You should also keep in mind that some products artificially increase the
price as a marketing tactic. The increased price leads consumers to (falsely)
believe it is of higher quality because they expect price to reflect quality.

------
alistairSH
Question... How do YOU choose the wines you buy?

I enjoy a good wine, but never bothered refining my taste for regions,
pairings, etc. Instead, I found a good, local wine shop. When I need a bottle,
I just ask for what I want... "something to go with a duck dinner", "something
to drink on a hot, summer night", etc. So far, they haven't let me down. I
probably average $20/bottle - certainly more than strictly necessary for a
good bottle - but I figure it's almost guaranteed I'll enjoy the bottle, and
it's going to a local, family business, so I'm ok with that.

------
thret
This is relevant: [http://www.gov-
online.go.jp/eng/publicity/book/hlj/html/2012...](http://www.gov-
online.go.jp/eng/publicity/book/hlj/html/201201/201201_04.html)

"MetaCookie+ is a technology that changes the taste of a cookie when it is
being eaten based on an illusion evoked by changing its appearance and scent."

The way something tastes is partially determined by your expectations. Smell,
appearance, cost, and if someone tells you it has hints of X, you will
probably find that X.

Still, pleasure is personal and your own opinion is the only one that counts.

------
vivin
For a second there I thought this was about
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wine_(software)](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wine_\(software\))

------
jebblue
>> In another experiment, critics tasted one red wine and one white wine. They
described the red in language typical of reds and the white in language
typical of whites. The problem? Both were identical white wines; the “red” had
been tinted with food coloring.

Try that with me, 1, 50 or 1000 times (preferably the latter) but you will not
be able to fool me. White (regardless the color) is so different from red it's
like in another dimension.

~~~
jakejake
You should give it a try and report back!

I don't even know much about wines but it seems hard to imagine I'd confuse a
white wine for a red one. But then again I saw an experiment with people
tasting jello without any food coloring. People couldn't tell strawberry from
lime from grape or anything else. Perhaps not a totally accurate comparison
but I do think we see a certain color and our brain starts preparing our other
senses for the experience.

------
surement
I've never been able to understand why people claim that no wine is better
than another, or coffee, or tea, or anything. Do a lot of people have very
insensitive taste buds? There is most definitely a correlation between price
and quality. Very cheap wines are most often garbage, and very expensive wines
are almost surely good, and usually exquisite, as long as they have not turned
to vinegar. That being said, it is not _necessary_ to spend a fortune on a
wine to get a delectable experience. I've had $15 dollar wines that I have
much preferred to $30 wines. But I find it unlikely that I'd prefer a $10 wine
to a $100 dollar wine. Note also that some wines have a better price to
quality ratio: I'm more likely to prefer a $50 Bordeaux than a $50 Chilean
wine. What's more, does anyone think that "movie appreciation" is bullshit
because some reviewers will give one star while others give four to the same
movie?

Another thing that happens is that certain wines, e.g. Chateauneuf-du-Pape,
are just never as cheap as others, and cheaper wines just typically don't have
their flavor profile. So if you want that certain taste because whatever food
you're pairing it with would be matched better, then you'll find yourself
spending a little more, not fundamentally on quality, but on variety. This
leads to the tinted white wine "experiment": if you know what you're drinking,
you know what you're looking for (the test is sort of interesting, but I don't
see it as evidence that wine is bullshit). Recognition is one of the main
sources of pleasure in a lot of things. Consider a neophyte looking at oil
paintings: many people are baffled by the prices some of them sell for. But
for someone that recognizes the evolution of a certain genre, style, and
techniques, it may not be so incomprehensible. Similarly, if a flavor profile
only appears to exist in certain more expensive wines, one guzzler may
appreciate looking for its subtleties. That they would not notice them if they
weren't told which wine they were downing is entirely possible.

Lastly, I'm not sure I understand people's gripe with using words like
asphalt, tar, leather, tobacco, etc. Flavors, in wine or anything, usually
fall into three categories: vegetal, animal, or mineral. If you've picked out
a characteristic flavor in what you're drinking, it is not hard to categorize
it within those three. What is more difficult is to make this observation more
precise, and if you have the enlightenment to see that asphalt is actually
what you're reminded of, then why not use the word? It doesn't follow that
just because you wouldn't eat asphalt, you could not appreciate the
playfulness detecting this aroma.

~~~
purplelobster
Maybe you're right, but to be sure you should give your friend a few hundred,
let him go buy a couple of different wines and blind test you. Record both how
you like each wine and what you think it cost. Also for fun, write down the
tastes and compare to the description (asphalt etc). Film this and put it on
youtube so we all can see. I'd be willing to donate a few bucks for this,
anyone else?

------
kepano
Wine isn't bullshit. What's bullshit are sensationalist articles with no
substance reaching the top of HN. Where are we, Huffington Post?

~~~
dubfan
This seems to be Priceonomic's MO. See their earlier article entitled
"Diamonds are Bullshit". It's largely the same (a few non-controversial facts
mixed in with anecdotes and straw man arguments)

------
lettergram
I remember when I had my shot of Midleton (Irish Whiskey), which costs around
$300 because it was aged, special brew, etc. Then I get a bottle of 12 year
aged Dewars for $35 and my god was the Dewars better...

Yet my whole family was impressed with the Midelton.

Next time, I switched what was in the bottles, it was the Dewars that won.

Point, it's all in their head.

------
D9u
I've never been a wine drinker... It gives me headaches.

However, there are many goods which have traditionally inflated prices, such
as diamonds, but there is no shortage of people who buy into the words of
marketers.

That said, aficionado types often agree upon their favorites, so there must be
something to the rankings of popular vintage.

------
nathan_long
Whatever you think of this article, it's interesting to do your own blind
tasting of kinds of wine, tea, peanut butter, or whatever. If _you personally_
can't tell the difference, it's both educational ("I thought I liked the
expensive one better!") and lets you happily save money.

------
theorique
Rule 1: Buy the second cheapest wine.
[http://www.collegehumor.com/video/6794626/second-cheapest-
wi...](http://www.collegehumor.com/video/6794626/second-cheapest-wine)

Rule 2: If you are confused, follow Rule 1.

------
jasonlotito
On a side note, there is a grand difference between ice wine and regular wine.
Oh, it's a sweet wine, and there is no mistaking that taste. If you've never
tried it, I'd highly recommend it.

------
foxhill
Wine? i don't think so. i know it's difficult to get working, but with a bit
of coaxing it's actually pretty compata..

oh. the alcoholic drink produced from fermented grapes.

------
Svip
Anything is worth what the purchaser will pay for it.

------
calinet6
It tastes good. Some tastes better than others. Lots of people agree in
general terms about this.

No need to analyze it or suspect a conspiracy. Move along.

~~~
ctdonath
Of course there's need to analyze it. Understanding _why_ "it tastes good",
_why_ "some tastes better than others", and - oft overlooked - _what_ leads to
a reliably enjoyable experience for which you are willing to shell out
considerably more money on a regular basis, necessitates analyzing it. As for
the conspiracy, some do exist (taking shortcuts to larger profits), but most
are imputed because the ignorant don't believe there is any objective backing
to what they don't understand.

~~~
calinet6
Yes, analyze in terms of understanding how the quality is created and may
improve, sure.

This article appeared to be overanalyzing, and the wrong things, in the wrong
direction. It was pointless.

~~~
ctdonath
The point was to demean, not enlighten.

------
casual_slacker
This site seems to have a redirect problem (or is it pushstate?). The page
loads fine for me, but my history has 10 visits in a row.

~~~
omarish
Hi there! This is the first we've heard of this issue, but it could be
something going wrong on our side.

Could you visit [http://supportdetails.com/](http://supportdetails.com/) and
email me the results? I'm omar@priceonomics.com.

Thanks and sorry for the redirects. Completely unintentional.

------
_delirium
Looks like some economists rediscovered that old Marxist assumption, that
exchange value can vary independently of use value. :P

------
adventured
Simply put, at higher cost levels, wine is more like art in terms of value
appraisal.

------
webXL
As my wine (and Latin) loving father is fond of saying:

 _De gustibus non est disputandum._

------
ddunkin
It all takes like crap to me, the only label I look for is 'sale'.

------
aet
Why are there so many wine-hating posts? Some beer lovers here?

~~~
jonathanjaeger
I love craft beer. Price doesn't necessarily play a huge role -- I love a $4
Lagunitas as much as a $15 [insert higher-priced beer], but there is a
correlation between price and the complexity of the beer. A $2 bottle of beer
you get as part of a six-pack can be a good craft beer that I love, but you
often don't find very niche, unique breweries doing the six-pack thing and
just have more expensive single bottles.

------
jstsch
This headline shows why I like 'sentence case' better than 'title case' :)

    
    
      Is wine bullshit? <- the drink
      Is Wine bullshit? <- the not-emulator

------
samwise
i'm pretty sure it's grapes

------
floor_
Oh, this was about wine, whine and not /wine/, /wine/. For playing pc vidjah
games.

