

Ph.D.s Ditch the Lab - bootload
http://www.thecrimson.com/article.aspx?ref=521323

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geebee
In spite of all the downsides, the PhD programs do offer a lot to non-US
students who want to gain legal entry into the United States. This can be the
first step in the long path to a green card, which is worth a great deal of
money.

The equation changes for US citizens and permanent residents, because the
green card and/or legal right to reside in the US isn't part of the equation.
Residency + a 35K/yr post-doc is a lot more appealing if you don't already
have the residency.

It would be interesting to see what would happen if foreign scholars were
directly awarded a 10 year residency visa and a spot on the green card list
upon arrival in the US, independent of whether they remained in the Ph.D
program. In other words, what would happen if the US said "you're obviously
smart enough to make the best use of your own life - welcome to America, and
feel free to follow your own path in life."

I wouldn't be surprised if the drop-out rate increased dramatically, since the
foreign students would now be free to join startups or pursue other degree
paths.

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timr
Amen.

Universities won't stop over-training until the financial incentives for them
to do so are destroyed. For starters, I'd love to see the post-doc and
graduate student salary base raised to livable levels. Most scientific
research is conducted by people who can barely afford their rent, and it isn't
right.

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aneesh
Yeah seriously. The media are always saying we're not training enough
scientists & engineers. The fact is, we're training too many!

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ced
A hard science education is a great preparation for a ton of intellectual
jobs. I think this exodus from academia shows that the modern world "industry"
now offers problems just as complicated as solving Schrodinger's equation.

~~~
timr
A PhD is "great preparation" for non-research jobs the way that a sledgehammer
is a "great tool" for pounding nails.

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ced
That's not what I said. I said _outside of academia_ which you switched to
_non-research_. There's plenty of research done outside, from Boeing air
tunnels to biotechnology to (some) computer technology startups.

Plus, there are definitely some non-research jobs for which it's useful.
Financial markets. Programming. While I wouldn't recommend doing a Ph.D. to
become a better programmer, having done a minimum of research gives a
different perspective on some problems.

~~~
timr
The vast majority of jobs outside of academia are non-research. Moreover, the
few corporate research jobs tend to be just as competitively sought as faculty
positions, because the positions are so few relative to the supply of PhD-
trained applicants.

Maybe it's because I'm too recently out of the system, but I think it was a
nearly complete waste of time. Whatever skills I gained while doing my PhD, I
would have gained working in industry for the same period of time -- and today
I would be extremely well-connected (and far less poor). I'm proud of
finishing, and there were certainly intangible benefits (mostly related to
being surrounded by coeds for so many years). From a practical perspective,
however, it was a terrible decision.

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ced
I dropped out of grad school for the reasons you mentioned, so I won't argue
with you there. Best of luck finding a job.

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npk
I struggle with this issue every day (just selected a postdoc.) There are tons
of smart, educated, hard working, passionate scientists. Why is that? I think
because we just plain like it. Low pay sucks. But, most of us probably would
not work in a coal mine for $80K.

So, working in a coal mine "isn't right." Being a postdoc is just not ideal.

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timr
The vast majority of the post-docs and grad students that I know _hate_ the
lifestyle, but have irrational hopes for success. They'd never put up with the
hours and the low pay, if they could internalize the odds of failure.

Anyway, I wouldn't be so flippant about coal mining: miners get paid about the
same as post-docs ($40k, usually in cheap parts of the country; google it) for
well-regulated 40-hour weeks.

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lisper
It's not just the academic job market -- all of Western civilization is a
pyramid scheme.

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cellis
it goes a little further than that. All life forms are part of a grand pyramid
scheme that keeps them alive for humans' benefit.

