
Ask HN: military reserve for startup owners? - potrerohill
Are there any startup founders here who are members of the military reserve?<p>I am considering joining the coast guard reserve for a few reasons, maybe bad ones. I'm actually posting this under a sockpuppet because my friends in real life were completely revolted by the notion that I could even consider this. Here are my thoughts...<p>- I'm not going to get shipped to afghanistan in the coast guard.<p>- I like boats and the ocean and would be able to get paid (minimal amounts) learning more about them. Normally, this hobby can be very expensive.<p>- a while back the sfbay craiglslist actually had many job listings for the coast guard. This makes me think that I'd be able to stay in the bay area, rather than shipping off to a base in west virginia or somewhere else far away.<p>- I would be able to get health insurance through the coast guard<p>- I'd meet new people.<p>- It sounds like fun...<p>and lastly: I just read an article about a guy in brooklyn who joined the army reserve and received a $150,000 small business loan only available to people in the armed services. he then used the loan to open two really hip bars in Williamsburg.<p>This seemed like an interesting way to get funding, and if the guy got $150K to start a BAR, surely I could get funding for a technology business.<p>I'm not sure if I can even do this, I may have a physical condition that disqualifies me from any military service.<p>But, I was wondering if anyone on HN was in a military reserve unit, or was in the past, and can offer any insight.<p>edit: here's the link to the small business loan, and an article about it:<p>http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/06/13/AR2007061301116.html<p>http://www.sba.gov/patriotexpress/<p>Any comments are appreciated. Especially appreciated if you've been in the armed service and can say why this is or isn't a good idea.
======
alaskamiller
I was a Marine combat engineer veteran and then a reservist and a recruiter
for a bit of time.

You're jumping the gun on a lot of things. Military benefits, especially for a
reservist, isn't as cheery and rosey as you're picturing it.

For example VA loans are only given to veterans, the same goes for the health
insurance coverage.

In addition, I find it somewhat disingenuous that people (this might not apply
to you, feel free to email me to say I'm a pompous douche) are interested in
the military, to only want the benefits but not the burden that few carry.

~~~
potrerohill
I don't have a problem with that criticism. I posed the question the way I did
because I thought I'd get better feedback. Mentioning the "serve my country"
part of the decision has caused a lot of crazy arguments for me in real life,
so I left that part out.

~~~
alaskamiller
Serving your country by enlisting in the military is not a very popular topic
especially in the SF bay area.

It's a big commitment, active or reserve. My only advice to you is that if you
do this you do it for the right reasons and think of the benefits that you do
accrue as bonuses, but don't expect them.

Talk with a coast guard recruiter and find out exactly what you are or are not
eligible for. If you do sign a contract make sure you read it multiple times
and that whatever you discussed with your recruiter is listed on that contract
right there and then.

Edit: Coast guard boot camp is pretty demanding -- more so than Navy or Army.
Unlike Marine boot camp, I've heard it focuses more on practical skillsets
than just strict discipline and marksmenship. If you enjoy maritime
activities, you will definitely find the challenge rewarding.

~~~
potrerohill
Thanks for your reply. I am very interested in maritime activities. One
project I did a while back involved nautical electronics and I was supremely
envious of the people who actually got to go out to sea for testing.

By the way, here is the article where I learned about the Patriot Express
loan:

<http://nymag.com/news/intelligencer/49297/>

~~~
alaskamiller
That's administered by another agency, not the VA. The barrier for that is
much less -- not that that's not a fun thing to do anyways.

For what it's worth I really enjoyed my bitter time in the military, it
influences every single aspect of my life. Once you cross over you'll the
world in a different light. A lot of the vets here on YC apparently don't
share what I feel. Like a poker game it's all about the cards you're dealt
with and trying to make the best of it.

------
jjguy
I was an active duty (fulltime) air force officer, and am now in the USAF
reserves. I say do it. Some thoughts:

1 -- Typical time commitment is 1 weekend a month and 2 weeks per year; no
matter how fast your startup is moving, you can swing that. It's probably a
healthy break.

2 -- Diversity is good for computer geeks. Life -- esp a startup -- takes a
range of skills. Life in any of the armed forces will help build your
character and experience.

3 -- Your enjoyment will be closely tied to your reserve duty station. There
are absolutely places that will suck the life out of you, but there are also
places where you will feel like you are in a movie. I am very lucky to have
made contacts during my active duty years that got me a great reserve
position. Take the long view. If you're not happy with your first assignment,
talk to people and work the system to move.

4 -- health insurance for reservists is usually not effective outside your
duty time (1 weekend/month, 2 weeks/year) note this is a political football;
several years ago there was limited coverage for any reservist that did not
have health coverage elsewhere. I'm not certain of the current status, and the
coast guard is certainly a bit different than the other services.

5 -- the pay helps. it's not a lot, but nor is it chump change -- esp if you
get the officer slot.

anyhow, my two cents. good luck.

edit -- reading more of the comments: don't be too scared by the threat of
deployment. (1) I'm slotted in the system as a computer engineer, and
engineers don't get deployed. 10 total years in, and never even the threat of
time overseas -- and that's during the wars. (2) deployment builds character,
and is reasonably safe given how many people we have over there. you recall
the study from a couple years ago? you're more likely to get murdered living
in DC or Chicago than as a soldier in Iraq.

~~~
thebigshane
For those reading, everything jjguy said is true except the "engineers don't
get deployed". Engineers and Engineering USAF officers have a very low rate of
deployment, but it absolutely happens. However, as jjguy said, don't be scared
of deployments either, most non-Marines have enjoyed their deployments as
incredible learning experiences and a chance to get in shape.

------
tdavis
I am an Army Reservist since 2003 and an Entrepreneur (YC Summer this year,
too).

Here are some random points, but PLEASE CONTACT ME if you are looking into the
Army (I know jack about Coast Guard) because I simply can't write out all I
could say about it.

\- Most people don't get a bonus, at all, when joining the military. Bonuses
are generally for jobs where there is a high demand and these jobs usually
_blow_. Maybe that has changed though; I joined during a different time.

\- You'll meet new people, but most of them will be idiots. I am in
Psychological Operations, pretty much in the top 5 of military communities as
far as intelligence goes, and I still take orders from morons once in a while.

\- Being a reservist doesn't give you the flexibility you think it does. After
my deployment I started TicketStumbler with my co-founder and moved to Boston
to take part in YC. Since then I have had to skip two months worth of drills
because working on our business is more important than sitting on my ass in a
drill hall for two days. The military doesn't like when you do this.
Furthermore, moving is a giant pain because you have to find a new Unit; I
imagine this would be even harder for Coast Guard. Let's put it this way: They
will probably kick me out before I can find a suitable way to integrate the
military with my new life.

I don't know anything about the Coast Guard, but from what I've heard it's not
"serious" enough to waste your time with. After serving 5 years I am of only
one opinion when it comes to joining the military:

Go all in or don't go at all. Eight years is a long time to be tethered to
what amounts to an inconvenience (attending drill, so forth) because chances
are you will spend most of your time doing... bullshit. I have been on a
combat deployment (which was a perspective-changing event) and have traveled
many places, but it's not like the commercials. Most of your time is spent
doing what equates to nothing.

We say the military is 95% bullshit, but the 5% makes up for it. That isn't
always true. So, if you are going to join, hell, try to get into SF or Delta
or SEAL or... something. Something where you have the opportunity to sit on
your ass less. If the average is 5% of time spent doing something worthwhile,
maybe the more "hardcore" branches and services can bump you to 15%.

Oh, and if you take no other advice, take this: Don't join the Marines. Before
you know it, you'll have bumper stickers that say "shoot everything that
moves" and Semper Fi tattoos and an IQ of 5. To any Marines who read this: You
know the stereotype exists for a good reason.

------
walesmd
If you are in the Coast Guard you can go to Iraq/Afghanistan. I am in Kuwait
_right now_ and there are dozens of Coast Guard here, performing customs duty.
Usually the Navy performs this but they've been tapped for years.

I've seen many Coasties doing customs in Iraq as well.

Plus, who do you think defends ports in the Middle East? It's not the Navy
(for the most part) - they are an offensive force. Coasties perform patrols
constantly within ports/harbors here.

Plus, the Coasties are the military's DEA - guess who's tackling the Opium
problem in Afghanistan?

------
nostrademons
Wait, are you thinking of joining the coast guard reserves and _then_ starting
a startup, or joining the reserves _while_ starting a startup?

The latter seems very much impractical. Startups are mentally all-consuming,
and if I understand the reserves correctly, you still have to report for
training regularly. The mental strain of this would probably be too much, and
you'd let the startup falter. Plus, what if the startup takes off and then you
(heaven forbid) get called up for active duty?

The former _might_ work, though it seems unlikely. I have friends & relatives
in the military, both on active duty, in the reserves, and formerly in the
reserves, and they generally have been positive about the experience. But they
have personality types that are very much at odds with the typical startup
founder: they like (or believe they need) structure & discipline, while
successful founders usually thrive on ambiguity and change and can make
decisions with very little information. Seems unlikely that the same person
would have the personality traits to do well in both the military and in a
tech startup.

Also, never ever join up for any branch of the armed services on the
assumption that "Well, I'm not going to get sent to a war zone anyway."
Geopolitics can change _very_ quickly, and in a war, coast guard ships get
deployed right alongside the navy.

~~~
potrerohill
I have an LLC that is just me. I do a mixture of electronics and software
consulting. I do OK, maybe a little bit more than I would if I was a senior
programmer at google or yahoo. (or maybe not) I would like to do more
electrical engineering. I have an electronic product I would like to bring to
market (ok, a bike computer) that ties in with a desktop and web based
analytics tool. This sort of thing is hard to get funding for in the valley,
which is why the loan was interesting. (if I'm wrong about this, let me know
who would fund such a product... ;-))

I think I could handle the regimented nature of training. Until I got hurt, I
used to do amateur cycle racing which involved getting up at 5am every day and
riding for 2-3 hours, and long group rides on weekends.

~~~
rms
>if I'm wrong about this, let me know who would fund such a product... ;-)

Y Combinator?

~~~
potrerohill
I guess it can't hurt to apply.

------
blogimus
The keyword I read through this is that your brass ring is a $150K LOAN. For
this loan, you obligate 1 weekend a month and 2 weeks a year, if I recall my
reserve obligation right. If you are doing it just for the money, I'd suggest
don't. Find some other path. If you are interested in the reserves because of
your patriotism and/or sense of duty, then by all means explore it.

I enlisted in the Army for college money. Were I to do it over again, I would
have gone through ROTC and made connections as an officer. Connections I would
be able to use to help in business once I was done with military service.

That's just my 2 cent.

~~~
potrerohill
I'm actually less interested in the money. I had the idea to join about a year
ago, but kind of gave up on it. I just read the article about the loan
literally about an hour ago while I was on the bus, so it got me thinking
about the reserve again. Thanks for the comment!

------
pmorici
Government work and start-up work are diametrically opposed. My advice to
anyone considering any kind of government employment... DON'T DO IT, it will
suck the life out of you.

------
nolanbrown23
I just got out of the Navy as an enlisted Deck Seaman and my brother is an
officer and my business partner. My younger brother is also enlisted in the
Coast Guard right now.

Let me say that it's possible to run a small, single person business while in
the military, I did consulting/programming jobs while I was in and it was
decent work. I would work while I was off duty and when I was out to sea and
not on watch or during working hours. This took a lot out of me but I felt it
to be worth it.

Before I continue I must say that I'm proud of my service and what I did and
the military is a good fit for some people.

Let me give you my perspective about the Navy/Coast Guard. It's not fun, fun
is rare and always involves a port. I like boats/ships/ocean and saw some cool
things out there but it wasn't worth it for me. You spend your time split
between watch, maintenance and other work. Coast Guard ships are particularly
bad because most are so old, my younger brother's had holes in the starboard
fuel tank, fires, parts breaking, terrible living space, etc. (One note about
the fire on a ship, it will cause enormous damage and possibly kill crew
members and is no joke.)

I was one of 3 people on my ship with any higher education in a technical
field, many officers outside the academies are majors that don't have good
hiring prospects. Because of the lack of "engineers" (not meaning in the same
way the Navy does), many officers are below par in terms of leadership,
planning, logical abilities. That means the people you work with are dumb,
unimaginative, and boring and could get you killed. (I came close a few times
because of these type of officers)

If you go enlisted your life will be run by your Chief which 90% of the time
are not good leaders and not fun to work for. You would be under a 1st, 2nd
and 3rd class petty officers who range in age of 19-40. These are hit and
miss. My LPO/2nd class was great and will work with him any time. My former
1st class was an idiot and got fired from his job because he was so bad. My
3rd classes were 19-21 and acted as 19-21 years do, except they are your boss
and you can't tell them to go fuck themselves.

As for location, it's possible you stay in the Bay. If you go active then
you'll be shipped anywhere including the gulf. (I just got back from there and
don't let anyone tell you there are no ships there, there are some and they
always get the short end of the stick.)

When you join you'll go to boot camp or OCS depending on if you go enlisted or
officer. Boot camp sucks, it's not what you think it is. OCS is 3x as hard as
Boot Camp.

Benefits are overrated, I do get the new GI Bill which is awesome but don't
get to use it until Fall '09 when it starts. I'll be done with school by then
and so it doesn't help me at all. I'm not sure the benefits you get in the
reserve other then I know it's not worth it to join just for them, you need to
have a real reason.

My email is in my profile if you want to ask any other questions.

------
vaksel
I wouldn't, not with the current situation with Russia, things can escalate
very quickly, and as reserves you'll be one of the first to get sent to the
front lines. And contrary to popular belief coat guard does not protect only
U.S. coasts. Just this week we sent a Coast Guard boat to Georgia.

------
rms
Did you go to college? Why not be an officer?

I have a friend who went to the Coast Guard academy. There are indeed some
people from the Coast Guard that go to Iraq to guard offshore oil platforms,
but comparatively few compared to the other armed forces.

~~~
potrerohill
I have a degree in physics. In fact, the job ads on craigslist were for
reserve officers. This one is for Tacoma, but was essentially the same one I
saw for SF back in April.

<http://coastguard.jobamatic.com/a/jbb/job-details/26481>

~~~
rms
OK... I would think that if you really want to do it, do it. I respect
military service as something of a quintessential human experience. I'd
consider it myself if I wasn't such an anti-military liberal weenie.

Realize, however, that bait and switch is common. You're told you'll be
working in one place but really you'll end up somewhere else. The Coast Guard
may not send you to Iraq but they very well may send you to some God forsaken
island in the middle of the Pacific. If you're not mentally prepared for that
worst case scenario, you shouldn't sign up.

~~~
potrerohill
_Realize, however, that bait and switch is common_

Yeah, I've heard that. That's why I was thinking coast guard. There are 8000
reservists and only 400 are "active." Of course I might get activated but it
seems like most of the work to be done is in the USA.

------
anonymousadvice
I'm not in the armed services - but many of my friends have been, I considered
it before health problems ruled it out, and I come from an area of the country
where service is extraordinarily common.

the rules for joining any military service -

1\. find a friend who's served in that branch. They can be a good friend or
just a friendly acquaintance who wants to help out a potential new member of
their branch.

however, they absolutely CANNOT be a current recruiter or being rewarded for
bringing in recruits right now. Moreso it can't be the first than the second,
but either is dangerous. People who have recently honorably left the service
are the best.

they will give you the straight scoop on the branch, where the bodies are
buried, and how to get what you want out of the service while also meeting the
obligations and responsibilities you signed up for.

the info you can get from Hacker News is good, but it's not a substitute for
the real thing unless someone here with Coast Guard experience is willing to
take you under their wing.

2\. get every condition and bonus you want out of a recruiter and your
contract IN WRITING. Just like a business contract in the real world, if it's
not written down in your contract it's your word against theirs.

if a recruiter suddenly starts getting shifty and tries to weasel out of this,
find another recruiter. There are lots of them out there, and the odds are
good that one of them will give you what you want as long as you're reasonable
in what you're asking for.

3\. understand the phrase "the needs of the service" and what it really means.
If you fail out of whatever school you get sent to, or otherwise don't meet
the responsibilities and obligations of an armed service member in your
initial training, you are going to get sent where the service feels like
sending you since you didn't fully complete your part of the contract.

this tends to hit people who try doing crazy things like going straight into
SF or SEAL tryouts without spending time in a combat arms branch, who then
become a part of the very, very high washout rate for the tryout for these
groups, and then get assigned wherever the service needs new bodies.

if you stick with a EE-related rating you should be fine since you already
have skills there.

4\. Remember that you can back out until you've completed all three of signing
the contract, taking the oath, and reporting to basic training, no matter what
the recruiters tell you. Talk to a civilian lawyer with experience with
military law if you need confirmation. You'll have zero chance of ever joining
the military again barring a draft if you back out after signing the contract
though, and rightfully so.

you shouldn't sign the contract or take the oath if you aren't 100% sure you
are ready and willing to serve, but if you have a change of heart, the
military doesn't need people who aren't truly committed to doing their duty in
this era of a volunteer force, so it's better you leave early rather than be a
drain on the service.

5\. Once you have taken the oath and reported to basic training, you are now
under the UCMJ, not the Constitution. Adultery is a prosecutable offense in
the military and you can still legally be shot by your own officer under a
variety of interesting legal clauses if you don't do what you are supposed to
in combat, however increasingly unlikely that is to happen in our current
time.

there's a flip side to that as well. You also have no obligation to follow
illegal orders given by your superiors, and in fact if you follow illegal
orders (for instance, orders to commit war crimes) knowing they were illegal
when given, you are considered guilty, "but it was an order!" won't cut it as
a justification.

6\. it's looking less and less likely there will be any significant US
involvement in a conflict with Iran, but it's not out of the question Coast
Guard boats would be deployed. The US Navy is aimed primarily at blue-water
combat, and while it is increasing it's ability to operate in littoral/close
to shore situations like the Persian Gulf, it has traditionally tapped Coast
Guard boats and crews for expertise in that area.

For instance, a fair amount of Coasties served in Vietnam running boats used
for littoral and river combat.

7\. The one thing everyone I know that has served has emphasized to me -
remember, when you sign up, you're agreeing to serve your country, not just
ride the service for benefits and abandon things when they get tough. And no
matter how desk clerk-like your job is in the military, there's a chance you
will go into combat, and there's a chance you will die. Anyone who pretends to
you otherwise is lying.

------
akd
Jeez dude. You make PG's 6% sound like a downright bargain :)

------
hooande
It's not fun. Don't do it.

------
logjam
Don't join the military. I did. I was successful there, but I regret it. It
was the worst mistake I ever made.

People who are often incompetent, if not downright malevolent, will be making
decisions that affect you in profound ways, often in direct contradiction to
your own ethics, and despite your own competence.

While that may be true in other fields, when you're in the military, you're
_stuck_ with the morons around you.

There are ways to get the kinds of benefits you seek, without getting involved
in the kind of shameful nonsense that so often is part and parcel of the
current U.S. military.

~~~
jshen
another vet seconds this

~~~
walesmd
I wouldn't say it was the worst mistake I ever made - but I can't wait to get
out.

Don't do it.

~~~
thebigshane
I would recommend it to most people but not this crowd. I think state-side
orders (like those you would get in the Coast Guard and Air Force) would jive
well with starting a small business, but I think the military requires more
sacrifices than most free-thinking hackers would be willing to make.

~~~
jshen
it depends how you define sacrifice. If by sacrifice you mean having random
evenings taken away from you because your 1st sgt had a hair up his as and
made you clean the floors for 3 hours then yes.

I had no problems with valid sacrifice, and I spent a year in Bosnia sleeping
in a tent with no heat, but it was the arbitrary power that people had over me
that made me hate it. Ever cut grass in the pouring rain? Ever sweep a parking
lot in the pouring rain?

On top of that I hated that I accomplished absolutely nothing day in and day
out. Today we clean the motor pool, tomorrow we have an inspection of our
clean motor pool, the next day we do pretty much nothing again, etc, etc, etc

