
American Entrepreneurs Who Flocked to China Are Heading Home, Disillusioned - sbuttgereit
https://www.wsj.com/articles/american-entrepreneurs-who-flocked-to-china-are-heading-home-disillusioned-1544197068
======
ChuckMcM
Aside from the general anti-China slant that is fairly common in the journal,
I have yet to see a 'manage the market' to achieve results desired by the
state to ever succeed, anywhere. Markets just don't work that way in my
experience, they evolve, they change, and if you box them in they die.

So the fundamental question is, "What did these people expect?" (and were thus
disillusioned when they didn't get their expectation). Did they expect that
they would be able to build large foreigner controlled businesses? Did they
expect that their success would not be impeded by a desire on the part of
political entities to craft a narrative? Did they expect to secure more wealth
for themselves before they were shut down?

I am always surprised by people who think they can do what they do in their
home country in any other country and get the same results. But it is
particularly true of people in the US it seems. If you don't really
internalize how the laws, politics, and policies of a country shape what is,
and what is not possible, you are setting yourself up to be disappointed.

~~~
paganel
Some of them had probably expected that the laissez-faire attitude of the
Chinese authorities that was noticeable up to the mid-2000s would continue
indefinitely, but that turned out to be a bad bet. Once the Chinese
authorities started to become more serious about things like environmental
regulations or higher salaries (both these things mentioned in the article
like something bad ?!) then many “napkin” business-plans turned to nothing. I
really cannot feel any empathy for this type of investors.

~~~
mcguire
" _both these things mentioned in the article like something bad ?!_ "

It is the Wall Street journal.

------
onemoresoop
Re-posting this sad and yet amusing comment from RalphWise:

This story helped me recall an article I read in the FT about 10 years ago. A
Germ an businessman set up shop in China and hired locals to help him run the
business. After about six months, he came to work one day only to discover he
was fully cleaned out. No cash anywhere, all the books and inventory gone.

His employees had figured out how his business worked, started their own
business within his business, siphoned off the cash and profits and took him
hook, line and sinker.

When the locals were asked why they did it, they said it was simple..."he was
a foreigner, and he deserved it."

~~~
Markoff
this reminds me common sight of foreigner with local Chinese girlfriend/wife
and sellers in markets blaming her for helping foreigner

so much for possibility of integration into Chinese society as foreigner, no
matter how good it's your Chinese or culture knowledge you will never be
accepted

~~~
rhegart
We take America too much for granted. I came as an immigrant child 25 years
ago and aside from maybe 4-5 relatively minor incidents, I haven’t faced any
major racism. Considering that I have maybe 2 dozen interactions daily and
have encountered likely 10,000 people in my life that’s quite extraordinary. A
recent survey came out that 60% of millennial believe America is one of the
most racist countries in the world.

Have significant immigration to any other country and watch the tribalism rise
up. America post 1990s has been the most welcome place for mass immigration in
human history.

In regards to China, I think they are great with foreigners. Urban China is
quite fantastic. Might get a few dirty stares if with a Chinese woman but all
things considered that’s not bad at all. Hopefully soon it’ll get better over
the coming decades.

~~~
sooham
Canada is also quite welcoming of immigrants.

~~~
goldenkey
Basically the same country, just more left leaning.

~~~
nojvek
No guns, better healthcare, and legal weed.

~~~
goldenkey
Sign me up :-)

------
aj7
Businesspeople might well be overstressing themselves with micro- and
macroeconomic reasons behind China’s declining attractiveness to foreign
entrepreneurs. Rather, we might simply be dealing with Han racism against
westerners. In the beginning, western entrepreneurs were reluctantly
“welcomed” when they had things to teach China, investment of almost any form
was needed, and China was simply poor. The reluctance was papered over by good
manners, and the possibility of unusual profits. Now, China is much richer and
more sophisticated, and much of the teaching and raw development is over.
Westerners are more clever about hiding trade secrets, and more willing to
outsource expensive factors of production in their Chinese operations. In a
country of political sophistication that only few Westerners perceive, they
are being eased out, having never been considered a perennial fixture in
society.

~~~
microdrum
You're right. And I'm surprised more Silicon Valleyers have not figured out
that China, a country that _has concentration camps going right now_ is
racist.

~~~
verroq
Sorry those camps are miserable but they aren’t concentration camps. The word
concentration camp has a specific connotation with the extermination camps
build to kill Jews and other undesirable under Nazi Germany i.e. genocide. To
conflate the two here like many people conflate Japanese internment camps with
“concentration camps” is so off the scale it is at least misleading and at
worst grossly insensitive.

~~~
dang
Would you please stop posting inflammatory, unsubstantive comments? Nitpicking
plus Nazis equals particularly pointless.

Edit: you've been posting a lot of flamewar comments lately (e.g.
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18620146](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18620146)),
and we've already asked you not to. If you keep doing it, we're going to ban
your account.

~~~
verroq
You gotta stop selectively enforcing moderation. The person who said China has
concentration camps and is now somehow racist isn’t being inflammatory? A few
threads back when the Christian missionary got killed by the natives the
entire comment section was a leftist circlejerk. The flamewar was already
burning when I got here, and there is no discussion. I guess I shouldn’t start
dropping out shitposts but I don’t feel particularly bad when the entire
comment section is already beyond saving. I shall refrain in the future and
just flag instead.

------
unixhero
Yup. Got ripped off by a major hardware component manufacturer there. They
refused to release the significant safety deposit when they were obliged to.
Not a great way to loose USD30000 for a startup[0].

Then we have the almost comical lack of quality assurance, and understanding
of what quality means and is.

Most of our significant efforts to set up a production line for computer
hardware in Shenzhen failed.

It didn't kill us, maybe some innovation and extra focus on our product and
quality came out of it.

It was, however, the fortune 500 client lawyers who saw to it that we met our
demise (we were a "2 big clients shop").

[0] [http://bergesolutions.com](http://bergesolutions.com) Eulogy: Now
defunct. Had massively big clients. Too big for us to handle. Shipped about
5000 units and we filed several patents.

~~~
aj7
In dealing with clients three orders of magnitude larger than yourself, you
need a "hook." Years ago, due to an electronic miskeying, I got to listen in
as a company lead purchasing agent, who had a law degree, discussed with other
purchasing agents how they were going to push us around, complete with
disparaging comments about our size. We had provided a specialized piece of
equipment that the company's employees were sometimes too lazy to perform
preventive maintenance on, despite training. I never got on a plane unless the
service contract check had cleared.

------
samstave
Interesting - the lure of "making something" in Shenzen has been a little seed
in the back of my head for years... (one of those secret little pipe-dream-
fantasies that pops up every once in a while and consumes 'what-if' cycles,
but quashed by reasonable-rational-realist-me, but entertained just the same)

\---

That said, one of the adaptations of this little fantasy that I have had, and
wonder about how feasible it could be is;

What if there were a group effort with a communal goal of accomplishing X in
China...

An informal start-up-market type model where you have agents in some silo
categories, but all working together.

Lets assume that the silos are "Design/Eng | Finance | ops | mfr-execution |
sales"

So you have local US agents who collab on a design of a thing - you have
backers (can overlap), and ops facilitators who focus on where when how it
will be sold -- and then you have mfr-execution agents who actually go to
shenzen and get the deal done and made... finally a sales org.

Kinda like a communal quirky?

~~~
dqpb
It would be better just to build a Shenzen in the US.

~~~
notduncansmith
Now THERE’S an idea. What are the major hurdles to overcome in implementing
this?

EDIT: Looks like the efficiency comes at a high price.

~~~
dqpb
Convince the people with all the money that building a giant manufacturing
center would have a favorable ROI.

~~~
StillBored
No, as much as I dislike Trump, a nice tariff could solve a lot of problems
long term. Its after all how this country was built. Put in more economic
terms, you should be taxing things you want to discourage. Taxing income/work,
while providing free trade with locations that have lower tax structures
_WILL_ force jobs and industries offshore.

OTOH, a nice fat tariff on things you want to manufacture, and suddenly
manufacturing them at home starts to make strong economic sense. Of course as
evidence suggests that you also need a large enough market to assure that your
not just paying 100x as much to support some inefficient factory.

~~~
pjc50
If tariffs worked on their own, Brazil would be an electronics powerhouse.
[https://thenextweb.com/la/2012/09/30/from-brazil-cost-
brazil...](https://thenextweb.com/la/2012/09/30/from-brazil-cost-brazil-
profit-why-electronics-expensive-brazil/)

~~~
StillBored
The NAFTA market is literally 10x the size of Brazil. Its not the same thing.

Worse, tariffs tend to work if your protecting an existing industry from
dumping/etc, not so much if your trying to grow one.

------
contingencies
Entrepreneur in China since 2001 here.

The big shift occurred in 2007 in the lead-up to the 2008 Olympics when China
said "OK, enough foreigners" and tightened up the visa rules (which were
admittedly extremely open). They never relaxed them again. This experienced
reality perfectly conincides with the drop-off seen in the graphics in this
article.

IMHO there are three parts to the story the article misses: (1) The impact of
the 2007 changes has now passed and stats across the board have stabilized or
are picking up again. (2) China's first tier cities are now _extremely_
expensive, which is a massive disincentive for small-scale foreign investors.
(3) That _Blue Frog_ chain's food is both terrible and expensive.

Also there are have been many major macro changes in this time the article
misses, like increased focus on anti-corruption, reforms toward digital tax,
banking and governance systems, Belt and Road Initiative, cities now choking
on cars, WeChat and mobile payment going from 0-100% penetration, omnipresent
food delivery, etc.

------
sgt
China is crazy. Check out the vlogger 'serpentza' and his sidekick 'laowhy86'
on YouTube. After spending so many years working and living in the "real"
China (different from Shanghai, Bejing etc) they have a unique perspective on
China. Interestingly, they recently announced that they may be moving to the
US and continuing from there.

~~~
xiphias2
Why is China crazy for not being able to provide the same quality of life as
the country with the reserve currency?

It makes sense that US is one of the easiest place in the world to live in.

~~~
adventured
The most interesting thing about China in that respect isn't that some parts
of China aren't up to par with what you see in the US, UK, Germany, Sweden, or
wherever in the developed world. It would be expected to take a long time to
accomplish that, assuming it's possible for so many people to hit that
standard of living at all.

It's the truly extraordinary imbalance between the top ~100 million and the
bottom 1.3 billion.

~200 million people living on $3 per day. And 800+ billionaires at the top.
~500 million people living on $10 per day or less, and two million
millionaires at the top.

It's a proclaimed Communist nation with the greatest inequality the world has
ever seen. It simultaneously has a large quantity of among the richest people
and the poorest people on earth, a very strange arrangement. The surprising
thing is that China hasn't been far more aggressive when it comes to welfare
redistribution. They could easily implement wealth taxes if they desired.

~~~
paulie_a
China is absolutely in no way Communist, in any way. They are full on corrupt
capitalism, but still it's capitalism. They can proclaim whatever they want.
Personally I think they have been making a slower transition vs Russia where
the oligarchs and mafia flat out took over. While there are incredible
inequalities in China, Putin is the biggest and wealthiest mafia head in the
world.

But it is absolutely not surprising they are not doing wealth redistribution.
That would actually make them a Communist nation

------
bb88
Anecdotal evidence from a pinball factory in China from Strange Parts.

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bnPhAn2_bjk&t=262s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bnPhAn2_bjk&t=262s)

Leases on buildings have gone up in price. Regulations have been increased.
But labor is still very high quality.

After watching this video, I feel that high schools in the US and elsewhere
would be better if they taught consumer electronics repair rather than shop
class.

There's still a lot of empty space to put electronic factories in the US.
There's just not a lot of skilled labor.

~~~
hn_throwaway_99
> I feel that high schools in the US and elsewhere would be better if they
> taught consumer electronics repair rather than shop class.

Yikes, I hope you're joking! The cost of manufacturing consumer electronics
has gone down so much that it's virtually impossible to have a viable repair
business in the US - perhaps high-end laptops, Apple products, and _very_
straightforward, limited repairs like phone screen repair, but that's about
it.

As another anecdotal data point, I volunteer in a thrift store, and by _far_
the hardest donation to sell is electronics - most of the time we just
trash/recycle it, even if it is in very good condition. People aren't willing
to pay very much at all for tech that is even just a couple years old. Thus,
if the average age of a piece of electronics needing repair is, say, 2 years,
by that point the product will have probably depreciated most of its value. At
that point the vast majority of people will just buy the latest and greatest.

~~~
ryandrake
On the other hand I recently fixed my home theater receiver with a handful of
20 cent capacitors, saving a multi-hundred dollar repair bill and/or throwing
away the whole receiver. Basic electronics knowledge and soldering skill could
help anyone at home. Just like being able to do light plumbing and electrical
work comes in handy and will save you lots of money.

~~~
fbonetti
> Basic electronics knowledge and soldering skill could help anyone at home.
> Just like being able to do light plumbing and electrical work comes in handy
> and will save you lots of money.

I'm skeptical of this. When a sink is clogged, the toilet won't flush, or a
light switch doesn't work, there are only a handful of potential causes, all
of which are well known and can be remedied after watching a Youtube video.
When electronics fail, there could be a million reasons why. Most people are
better off buying a new device and getting a warranty on it.

~~~
pessimizer
When electronics fail, it's generally a handful of causes, or one or two well-
known design flaws in some particular model of device. I'm not sure I've ever
had a device that I haven't repaired at least once, and I haven't had a laptop
I haven't repaired at least a half-dozen times before upgrading.

You know what's usually useful? A youtube video of disassembly, digging up a
service manual with google's help; pretty much the same as a toilet, but
generally far safer than trying to fix a light switch.

~~~
jacquesm
> When electronics fail, it's generally a handful of causes, or one or two
> well-known design flaws in some particular model of device.

Once upon a time in the age before I dedicated my life to all things software
repairing color tvs was one my sources of income. I respectfully disagree with
your assertion, electronics can fail in very many different ways. All the way
from 'rodent electrocuted in HV power supply' to passive component that never
fails somehow in fact did fail.

Even something as mundane as a coil-over-a-resistor can fail if the conditions
are right. And don't get me started on bad soldering connections, corroded
connectors and a million other little details that can affect the functioning
of a device to the point where the repairguy gets called.

This was before the days when oscilloscopes were portable, and unfortunately
also before the days when I had a driving license. A typical house call would
end up with a working TV or VCR and me learning yet another way in which
things could fail.

Main tools: a couple of folders of schematics of the most commonly encountered
models of TV/VCR (pick the right one before you leave, hope the user read the
type plate correctly), a stack of matchboxes with passive components, some of
the more common active components with enough spread that you could cover most
cases, a soldering iron and a very large collection of parts scavenged from
old TVs waiting for the opportunity to recycle them.

------
achow
[https://outline.com/rbNmG7](https://outline.com/rbNmG7)

------
ilamont
Foreign businesses having to follow local rules is nothing new, whether it's
in China, England, or Mozambique.

China has, in the past, detained foreign executives accused of breaking local
laws. There was this pharma case involving GSK in 2014
([https://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/02/business/international/ch...](https://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/02/business/international/china-
rules-glaxo-bribes-sex-tape-whistleblower-cautionary-tale.html)) which found
the company engaged in fraud in the country. GSK paid up $.5B and had to
reform some of its practices as a result.

What is troubling is when those rules are unevenly or unfairly enforced, are
designed to give other businesses an unfair advantage, or are subject to
additional requirements outside of the standard protocol. There's a good
backgrounder on IP theft in China here
([https://law.stanford.edu/2018/04/10/intellectual-property-
ch...](https://law.stanford.edu/2018/04/10/intellectual-property-china-china-
stealing-american-ip/)).

If you dig around it's not hard to find all kinds of horror stories involving
"joint ventures" or unfair advantages given to domestic companies. I know
someone whose relative was involved in a business dispute in China which
resulted in that person being detained in a hotel without any charges filed at
the behest of some local official. He couldn't leave the PRC until the dispute
was settled to the satisfaction of the Chinese business partner.

------
jimjimjim
For as long as I can remember, the sales part of every organization I've
worked for has been seduced by the "1 Billion Customers!" idea of China. that
plus manufacturing with sweatshop style wages.

And in every single case, after much pain, they realize that it just doesn't
work like that.

worst was an org that had their hardware cloned and sold (right down to knock-
off pcbs).

another, selling a hw + sw solution to a chinese client with 5000+ sites,
initial phase was for 50 sites, with the client doing installation and first
tier support. guess what. the project didn't go beyond the initial phase. but
part of the requirements of the project was sharing of ip.

~~~
rchaud
That sounds a lot different from what's being discussed in this article. The
article was more of a lament from mostly well-to-do Americans about how doing
business in China is harder because wages went up in the decade since they
landed.

~~~
xmly
So Tesla went there to open a giant factory? How smart musk is...

------
mathteacher1729
They went to China, made tens of millions of dollars in profit, sold their
businesses off at a fair margin, and now return to the USA to live what seems
entirely likely to be the rest of their lives in all the comfort of whatever
their millions of dollars can afford them.

~~~
hn_throwaway_99
What? I read in the article that some of the companies barely broke even.

~~~
fullshark
OP seems to be describing the hamburger shop owner.

------
paulsutter
The 1997 movie "Chinese Box" opens with Jeremy Irons character in Hong Kong
autographing his book, "How to Make Money in Asia". After signing his name, he
crosses out "Make" and writes in the word "Lose".

So this isn't exactly a new trend.

------
tgb29
There is no court system in China to handle dispute resolution —- at least not
like what exists in the US. I asked a businessman in China about dispute
resolution recently, and he said it’s inconsistent and every province does it
differently. There is a reason why in China many of the biggest businesses are
located near where the government is located.

------
supercanuck
I remember reading Phil Greenspun’s blog circa 2004 as a new grad and him
alluding to people teaching their kids mandarin.

I remember thinking, geesh, this guy is at Harvard and MIT, he must know more
than me.

I’m glad I never followed through with that.

~~~
rchaud
During the dotcom crash of the early 2000s, there were similar comments in the
vein of "glad I studied finance and not this computer science BS". The world
is cyclical; what doesn't make sense today, may be obvious tomorrow.

Condoleeza Rice learned Russian in college because that's what made sense in
her time, especially if you pursued foreign service work. As Sec of State in
the 2000s, she probably never had to use it in any official capacity. Come
2016, and knowledge of Russia is important once again.

------
gigatexal
[https://goo.gl/images/HbXTru](https://goo.gl/images/HbXTru)

What did you think would happen going to a place that is super corrupt, has an
authoritarian government, and steals IP blatantly?

~~~
k__
Most probably thought that they would be lucky and become a poster child or
something.

"Look at this nice American, how he came to us and made big money!"

------
Animats
American entrepreneurs aren't needed in China any more. Enough people in China
know how to do that now. More than enough.

~~~
hackerbob
There's a double standard. Rich Chinese are buying industries and property
around the world, but secretly (or perhaps not so secretly anymore) have a
problem with Western entrepreneurs owning things in China.

------
rchaud
There are millions of rural Chinese labourers that face daily document checks
and discrimination from local authorities while working jobs in the city.

I wonder what they would think if they came across this story and the worst
thing that happened in it was that an American had to sell his upscale burger
restaurant and complain about how unwelcome he felt in China.

------
eldavido
I went to China a few months ago and had similar thoughts:

United States There's a lot more to say, but overall, the trip made me very
optimistic about the future of the United States.

China's cost advantage is disappearing. A 1.5-hour boat ride with a bit of
transportation on both ends was almost $100 (US), and that was after we'd
haggled them down. At those prices, cost advantages aren't a slam-dunk, and
the distance (both geographic and cultural) start to weigh more heavily.

Add in the trade difficulties, not just the tariffs but the "local
partnership" requirements, ongoing government interference in the market, and
lax attitude toward IP protection, and I don't think China is such a great
deal anymore. I don't think Trump's dream of a huge US manufacturing industry
will come to pass, but for high-skilled stuff, the case for staying in the US
is stronger than ever, especially considering our great infrastructure, well-
educated populace, and sustainable environmental practices.

In sum, I think China is currently at its best, while the US is at its worst.
They're coming off a long cycle of growth, while the US is eating itself alive
with budget deficits, partisan conflict, and labor strikes. But as with
people, the true test is how something does when at its worst, not when
everything is smooth sailing.

[http://www.davidralbrecht.com/notes/2018/10/back-from-
china....](http://www.davidralbrecht.com/notes/2018/10/back-from-china.html)

~~~
xmly
Do not worry. US government is helping China, from building democracy to IP
protection. They are urging China gov to accept high standard to make China a
more powerful competitor.

------
analyst74
What I get from the article:

1, foreigners are less worshiped in China than before, giving them less
advantage over locals, and in many cases a disadvantage if they have not
forged strong connections

2, businesses founded on exploiting cheap labour and laissez-fair regulation
are facing a hard time

3, market is maturing and the overall economy is slowing down, there are fewer
untapped opportunities and existing businesses are facing increasing
competition

Not to say that being a foreigner has no disadvantage, but if a Chinese
entrepreneur fall into those categories, he/she will have a hard time
succeeding too. In fact, if you ask Chinese entrepreneurs/business people
today, chances are he/she will also tell you that it's getting harder to do
business.

------
jeremy_wiebe
I recently read a book about a man from the UK who went to China in the 80’s.
He partnered with a US company to start investing heavily in China (mostly
manufacturing). It is interesting because (aside from the regulation) it reads
very much like this article (up to the paywall).

The book is: Mr China by Tim Clissold

------
xmly
I highly doubt any Chinese who could not speak English could succeed in US. Of
course, if you think opening a restaurant in Chinatown is a success, I am
wrong then.

So if you do not speak fluent Chinese, why are you supposed to be successful
in China, especially when you are doing the things anybody could do?

~~~
seanmcdirmid
Most of the foreigners in the article spoke fluent Chinese.

~~~
xmly
As fluent as native Chinese?

There are a lot of foreigners working in US. But I do not think it is because
they could speal better English, but because they have skills, especially
engineering skills.

~~~
seanmcdirmid
Yes. Many foreigners working in China have 大山-level Chinese, enough to do
business for sure.

And yes, there are also foreigners working in China with specialized skills,
but we don’t typically start companies there (I was one of the latter).

------
notacoward
We've had some pretty strong "make tons of money in China" boosters right here
on HN. Here's one.

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18483412](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18483412)

I wonder if _their_ tune has changed.

------
vfulco2
I am not a huge fan of established religions, grew up catholic, but when a
society has no moral compass, endemic instability is a constant. There are
reasons for the most violent of boom / busts besides all the actions of the
"white devils".

~~~
toasterlovin
FWIW, the civilization you’re referring to has been a continuous thing for
roughly 3,500 years.

------
gscott
This is something relevant

[https://www.cnn.com/2018/11/03/asia/china-leeks-economy-
trad...](https://www.cnn.com/2018/11/03/asia/china-leeks-economy-trade-war-
intl/index.html)

------
hguhghuff
Are any/many big companies considering relocating computer manufacturing out
of China?

~~~
51lver
Apple? I'm not finding anything about a solid commitment, but they have been
talking of such for a long time.

------
nomoremaos
The ignorant West is responsible for building up the global network of the
Chinese autocratic regime. We hand them hard earned technology on a silver
platter, we talk about China coming over from the dark side once they taste
the other side, and the West bends over to allow China into the WTO for
reasons that are still elusive. A communist regime should never be allowed to
prosper in the way it has at the expense of Western ideals, rights and future
opportunities. The beast exists because we feed it and allow it to prosper.

------
snaky
Eastern European engineers are not.

------
ngcc_hk
Strange to make a distinction between foreigner and local. Do you know that
even as successful as alibaba chair and be a communist as well, you still have
to surrender your wealth if you were told. Totalitarian country is
totalitaruan country. The only strange part how they mix some market with
ultimate state control of everything’s successful so far.

------
reilly3000
Yes, and their odds of being kidnapped by the state just went up 1000% this
week.

~~~
dqhAR
I think you're referring to recent news of the arrest of a Huawei executive on
request of US. Huawei is the biggest private company in China. In technology,
its market share comes in second to Apple. In addition, the arrested executive
(Chief Financial Officer) is the daughter of Huawei's founder. This event just
light up a spark on an already tense situation and surely begs for a tit-for-
tat decision from China. Meaning: the retaliation from China is expected to be
about personal safety. So... more pressure to head out fast in case you're an
American entrepreneur.

~~~
reilly3000
That is precisely what I was referring to, thanks for taking the time to
provide context.

------
thevardanian
You're acting as if "the general anti-China slant" isn't justified. The only
reason China was tolerated so far is purely due to economic reasons, otherwise
what China is today as a government shouldn't have been tolerated and, in
facts, begs sanctions.

China has done far more egregious transgression to be sanctioned for than
Russia, but business/economic interests seem to outweigh that sort of action
against China.

~~~
blacksmith_tb
Clearly China has done some iffy business transgressions (dumping, industrial
espionage, etc.) though they've also provided plenty of bargain-priced
manufacturing (I type this on a Mac made by Foxconn...). But there isn't any
indication they've tampered with elections for example, so I think it's an
overstatement to say they're "far more egregious" than Russia.

~~~
sjeohp
> tampered with elections

By that metric the US is most egregious, so is hypocritical to sanction anyone

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balls187
That's whataboutism.

The US being a bad actor doesn't have any bearing on the the bad acting of
China, which is being discussed here.

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partisan
Unless it gives China reason to believe that such behavior is acceptable if
their position on the world stage is high enough.

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yourbandsucks
The Chinese government are mostly smarter than that, and better long-term
thinkers.

The Russian government has a lot of Putin's ego in it, they make big splashy
moves that look like 'exerting power' (ukraine, georgia, US elections).
Meanwhile their economy is stagnating and regressing to resource extraction.

Why would the Chinese bother stoking tensions in America when we're already so
good at it ourselves? "Never interfere with your enemy when he's making a
mistake".

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lamarpye
How can this be? So many times I read in the comments on HN, that the US isn't
a great place for entrepreneurs because of health care or something.

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raverbashing
The more "spoiled" and sheltered one is, the more they think things are the
same as where you came from.

There's also a lack of cultural awareness and an excess of "tourist mentality"
("look how funny these people look", "oh wow why was he rude to me", "can't he
speak English", etc).

The same thing happened with Russia a couple of years ago and unfortunately
some didn't return home.

