
"How much does a website cost?" – a survey of web designers - sgdesign
http://blog.folyo.me/post/10723370923/how-much-does-a-website-cost
======
reason
What do you guys get out of your smart-ass answers to potential clients?

You do know that they come to you because they know that _you_ are the
professionals. Many of them are completely clueless as to how pricing works
for dev/design-work. Asking "how much do you charge?" is a perfectly
reasonable question for someone understandably uninformed to ask.

You may be skilled at your trade, but from the sounds of it, many of you are
absolutely horrible at dealing with customers who need a bit of guidance and
direction with respects to the work they want to get done.

Imagine a curious older relative asking a physicist what light is and
receiving "Well, it's sort of like one thing, but it's really not" as a
response.

~~~
wetbrain
I think part of it is the cynicism that develops from bad clients. Some people
don't understand that the designer is a professional. Designers just draw all
day, and love what they do, so why would I pay big bucks for a website?

After all, my nephew does computers and I can have him make a website for
cheap.

There's also the "Of course we want you to have creative control. We just want
to be able to tell you how it looks, what colors to use, and what the tone
is."

So, I'm not surprised with the responses here. It's the same one I'd have if
someone tells me they want to make the next Facebook, only better.
Compensation? I'll give a share when it gets big. Details? No, it's a
secret...

~~~
nobleach
I came here to say basically the EXACT same thing... even including the "my
nephew can make websites" remark.

My method is to try to figure that out VERY early in my discussions with a
potential client, and then quote them a "scare off price" whereby they'll
likely say no, but IF they say yes, the extra money will make it worthwhile as
I KNOW they'll be asking for tons of changes. (Can't you just open Dreamweaver
and change the colors and pictures???)

I'm not advocating being difficult. I simply think if we'd size up our client
BEFORE deciding "we need the money", there'd be a LOT less horror stories.

~~~
wetbrain
Yeah, I hate "my nephew can make websites". I don't doubt that a high school
student could put together a full website, with a store front or whatever
else. But I'd be willing to bet it's not the most secure.

I'm sure there's something like this, but there should be a kind of Angie's
list for clients to blacklist the delinquent ones. If not I'm making one.

EDIT: There's always the better business bureau, but it's not as complete.

~~~
jtheory
The "my nephew can make websites" comment is not necessarily what people seem
to think it is.

After all, this is someone who has gone to the trouble of getting in touch
with a professional and asking questions. They aren't asking their nephew to
do it.

They know it's going to be more expensive, but they didn't realize HOW MUCH
more expensive, and that comment is simply part of how they learn why that's
the case.

They generally honestly don't understand why it's so expensive -- because they
don't yet understand what they're buying (it's non-obvious!) -- so the best
route is to keep the tone pleasant ("ha! yup, I get that question a lot") and
educate them in a friendly way.

The end result may be that they decide they won't want a professional website
-- that's fine. Part of the discussion should be how likely it is that the
site will earn them back more than they're paying for it. I have a neighbor
that wanted to hire me to build a website for her small-scale manufacturing
business, and through our discussions we basically figured out that it wasn't
going to be a good investment for her right now. That was a win-win situation,
in my book.

~~~
wetbrain
I'd call that a win-win as well.

I do take the same approach and try to explain why it's more expensive, they
tend to use the 'nephew' excuse to haggle down by a significant amount (A
couple hundred for a medium sized site, think school/PTA/church, tree depth >
2, 10+ pages). But my problem is finding a resolution. (This is a short
version, I'm usually more friendly about it)

Client: I know someone who will do it for free. You should therefore do it for
cheap.

Dev: This is a large project. (Explain expense).

Client: Then I'll just use my free resource.

Dev: Do that.

Client: But I want you to do it.

Dev: Well, this is a large project. (Explain expense).

Rinse and repeat...

There's a gap with some of them that I have trouble explaining. I'm not in
competition with whoever you know. Just because they can do it for free
doesn't change what I'll charge, which is pretty reasonable and on the low
side. I'll hear from other, actual freelancers (I' a student, so I'm part-
time) about the same client calling around and getting the same response.
Anecdotally, it takes 4-5 conversations for them to understand that the rate
is between $1000 and $7000 depending how large/dynamic it needs to be. Whoever
the last person is get the job, or makes a referral.

------
sambeau
When freelancing I tend to work a simple system.

    
    
      £250:  An update to content - an evening or two's work.
      £500:  A tiny static site with some original design. <5 pages
      £1000: A full static site for a SME. Full Design. ~5 pages. 
      £2500: As above with some dynamic elements. ~10 pages.
      £5000: Medium dynamic site. ~20 pages. 2-4 weeks work.
    

I then slide upwards for jobs I don't want and down for people I like. I've
never gone above £5000 for a 'homer'.

I also have a mate-rates scale that appears below this:

    
    
      Free: Family. Charities I like. Updates + tiny static.
      Bottle of Wine: As above but close family friends.
      Bottle of Whiskey: As above but good friends.
    

If I get a request for a bigger job from friends or family I tend to pass them
on to a developer chum these days — experience has shown it's for the best.

Having a fixed, doubling scale like this works well. Each next price needs to
be big enough to make a difference to me as I am essentially very lazy and I
like my free time. Also, I am a terrible soft-touch and would probably charge
everyone mates-rates if I didn't force myself to do this.

~~~
mtogo
Whoa dude, $392.10 for you to just _change content on a site_? Set up a CMS
and let the client change it themselves.

~~~
xorglorb
A CMS brings in additional complexity of updates and security breaches, which
can cost much more than a $400 update fee a few times a year.

~~~
sambeau
Exactly. Some of these sites are hosted on my own server. After having
numerous PHP sites hacked (and my machine wiped _twice_ ) static html is the
only thing I trust these days.

------
ralphsaunders
Asking "How much does a website cost?" is a bit like asking "How much does a
car cost?", and of course the answer is "it varies, how much are you looking
to spend? What do you want of the car/website?". Surveying various designers
under the pretense of addressing this question is price fixing.

The fact that the designers were asked their prices on the criteria that "
_All prices are for design only, i.e. they don’t include any sort of coding
(no HTML, no CSS, no Javascript, no PHP, etc.)._ " is rather telling with
regards to experience.

Design doesn't stop at the mockup stage — anyone who has designed & built the
front-end of a website knows that the design continues to evolve outside of
Photoshop. The nature of the web dictates a website must be flexible so it can
accommodate different browsers and resolutions. It's very difficult (read:
expensive) to design for a dynamic medium in a static work space, and it's
disingenuous to call a static, non-interactive image a website.

This post would be better titled "How much can one charge for a website
mockup?"

------
bradleyland
I know it's trite, but when people ask me, "How much would you charge me to
build a website?" I always reply with something pithy like, "Between $100 and
$100,000."

What's more interesting are the responses. It's almost like a litmus test for
who I'd actually want to work with. A person that I might actually want to
work with will laugh and acknowledge that the question was ridiculously vague.
A person that I don't want to work with will show some level of frustration
and will usually dismiss the remark, pressing for a greater level of detail.
I'll talk to the individual with a sense of humor and even a basic level of
introspection, but the person who is frustrated with _me_ isn't getting very
far.

~~~
felipemnoa
The client is just trying to figure out your rate. Just like the rate of a
plumber, repairmen, etc. etc.

When you call a plumber and tell him that your hot water doesn't work and how
much it will cost the tipical response is "my rate is x but I will give you an
estimate once I examine the problem". Why can't web designers use a similar
answer. Is that so hard?

~~~
eropple
Because (and this is "formerly" for me, I'm out of this work), I didn't have a
rate. The price that I would quote is a mixture of what the project's scope
is, how interesting it is to me personally, and how much of a pain in the ass
I forecasted the client to be, or knew to be from prior experience.

For a number of my clients, I couldn't come within 50% of an actual quote
until I sat down over coffee and talked over exactly what they wanted.

------
JonWood
When it comes to the web app pricing I'm not sure about this:

"For example, the mere fact of supporting user accounts will mean having to
design sign up, sign in, and “I forgot my password” screens as well as all the
different error states associated with them."

I'd much rather have UI guidelines, which cover how forms are built, what an
error state looks like, and how text is formatted. A set of building blocks,
rather then a unique design for each activity being undertaken.

In my experience designers who design each page individually usually provide
designs which can't be adapted easily, and require each page to have much more
work applied then would otherwise be necessary.

By all means provide a full design for key processes, for example the checkout
process on an e-commerce site, but for a lost password form I should I be able
to put that together without having to call in a designer.

~~~
sgdesign
You're right, of course. Maybe this particular example was poorly chosen, but
I just wanted to illustrate the fact that web apps are often more complex than
you think.

(plus it's been my experience that some clients _do_ want mockups for each
screen, even though I always tell them that the "building blocks" approach you
describe is much more efficient)

------
hopeless
To all those designers comparing their pricing to car sales, consider this: I
can wander around a car sales lot and _browse_ the cars and their prices. I
don't have to invent a "car spec" or give you a budget, I can see for myself
what I can afford. Unfortunately, web designers don't take this approach or
else I could browse through example (or previous) sites with their price tags
proudly attached. I could see how much $1000, or $3000 or $10,000 would buy
me. Unless you want to go down this road, never respond to me "well, how much
is a car?"

~~~
tertius
Most designers have portfolios.

~~~
jamesbritt
_Most designers have portfolios._

Do these portfolios also show prices? I've never seen such a thing (well,
aside from off-the-rack TemplatesAreUs.com sort of sites).

If pricing is such a case-by-case matter then perhaps there should be
something on the site that explains this.

I've dealt with a number of potential clients for Web development who came in
assuming that site building was much like (in their mind) getting a house
built. Two bedrooms, 2.5 baths? This much. Three bedrooms? That much.

I've had to explain to people that even getting a house built is not like
that, that while there are some common aspects there are also quite a few
things that are going to be unique.

Clients are usually well-meaning and earnest when they go shopping for a
developer or a designer, but typically have no idea how things work. A little
time explaining things goes a long way.

------
bphogan
So, if it's not coding, not even HTML coding, then this isn't about websites.
It's how much do you charge for a PSD file. In my experience that's a pretty
useless metric. Converting a PSD to HTML can be trivial if you just use an
export tool, or it can be incredibly time-intensive if you do it by hand and
turn it into something dynamic.

I haven't had a straight-up "Design me a website" contract in years - it's
always been applications, or a Wordpress theme. Is there actually still a
market for simple static web sites anymore?

~~~
kellishaver
I'm working on a simple static site right now, but it's the first one I've
done in a long time.

I'm also doing some work for another client that's just delivering PSD
files... which, again, is not something I have done in probably a couple of
years.

Unless you're working as part of a larger team and you each have specific
tasks, most people want at least design+front-end development.

------
citricsquid
"How much do you charge?" = bad

"What is the average of your x previous invoices for x?" = good

Sure I might charge _by default_ $1k for a logo but the chances of $1k being
billed every time are slim, every client is different. The average invoice
price is the most valuable metric. Every designer will _say_ they charge $5k
when they charge $1k because it makes them feel good.

~~~
rgraham
There are several comments here along these lines. I don't disagree that the
latter is a better framing of the question, but...

No one wants to hear that they're ignorant. No one wants to listen to a
condescending speech about how they don't understand your area of expertise.
Take a moment, be patient, educate them a little, try a couple concrete
examples, and keep calm. If you can't arrive at an understanding after a few
tries you can always walk away. I will assure you, however, that you will
secure a lot more clients and referrals if you treat everyone with respect and
try to help them find the right solution for themselves.

------
jaysonelliot
You might as well ask, "How long is a piece of string?"

------
RegEx
I don't know why so many people here feel compelled to act so rude towards
potential clients. Why do people get so defensive when it comes to their
pricing that they have to offer the prospect analogies instead of direct
answers? We all know the pricing is relative to the project. If you're tired
of getting emails from people asking how much a site is, don't be afraid to
state your minimum price on your site. Setting up pricing filters is good -
being rude to those that may be ignorant to our process is not. You might say
"Well they should do research!", but their google queries will be met by
articles spouting equally obscure analogies on what a site could cost.

~~~
fleitz
Because they are great programmers/designers but shitty business people.

------
gallerytungsten
Whenever someone asks me this question, I ask them, "how much does a car
cost?"

Well, it depends on the car, they answer.

Precisely. So do you want a used Honda, a new Corvette, a BMW, or a Rolls
Royce?

~~~
namityadav
But do you think there are many designers who think that they are anything
less than a Rolls Royce? (Just like most programmers think that they are much
better than average)

~~~
gallerytungsten
Here you are getting into the difference between the quality of the designer
and the issue of setting a budget range.

After all, to put it in those terms, you can rent a Rolls Royce for a day - or
you can buy one.

------
armandososa
Fuck.

This is my reaction every time I realize how underpriced I was for all my
consulting career. I charged $600 top for building websites, including logo
and backend most of the time. I think I was good, just very clueless.

~~~
danssig
Well, the important thing is to learn and adjust. Remember; if you are good
but underpricing you are not just hurting yourself. Your potentially hurting
every local person in the same space by decreasing the value of those
services.

------
8ig8
I used to fault the client or prospect for asking such _foolish_ questions,
but in many cases this may be the first time they have ever engaged creative
services. It seems so obvious to us, but not everyone has worked with an
architect or an interior designer or a software developer or an advertising
agency.

My tactic is to frame the 'how much does it cost' question into something they
can relate to. I compare the website to a house. I explain that the cost is
dependent on factors like the number of bedrooms and bathrooms. I explain that
knowing a rough budget is helpful because the designers would know if they
should shop at Ikea or (insert local high end furniture store). I ask them if
they want hardwoods or carpeting.

Usually the house example helps the client understand that he/she is asking an
impossible question and they then are more comfortable going into specifics
about their idea so I can get then a fair estimate.

------
geuis
I really take issue with this:

"All prices are for design only, i.e. they don’t include any sort of coding
(no HTML, no CSS, no Javascript, no PHP, etc.)".

I'm sorry, but a design is only a tiny, tiny fraction of a website. Usually
it's the most minor and inconsequential part. I've lost count of how many
clients thought their apparently simple designs can built for a toothpick and
olive.

Coding the HTML, CSS, javascript, and backend (app + database) can be freaking
complex and is easily the most expensive part of a site.

This article is mis-titled, since design is the least important part of a
site.

~~~
ChrisLTD
It's a little much to say design is the "least" important part of a site. Good
design can instill potential users/customers with confidence, ease the sign-up
or purchasing process, and give the site a personality.

~~~
geuis
I've yet to see where a design that's shiny and pretty is more important than
a site that is plain yet fast and functional. I'll add an addendum that
_usability_ is more important than _pretty_. The combination of both is,
unfortunately, rare.

~~~
ChrisLTD
You're right to say that fast and functional is preferable to pretty, but both
are examples of 'design' in the truest sense.

Good design really isn't about making things pretty, it's about enablind the
user or customer. Usability is goal number one.

------
gte910h
How much do you charge for a website?

is appropriately answered by "What do you want it to do?" then a conversation
talking about their project.

------
paulmckeever
Thanks for sharing this and I hope Folyo is getting off to a good start. I
know a lot of designers who struggle to figure out the market rate for their
work and will find this really helpful. Design can add huge value to a
business and good work costs money.

But I find the way you've approach the survey to be flawed. The cost of design
work is generally a factor of how complex the problem is to solve. Most
designers I know charge effort * hourly rate = fee, much like developers and
other professional services.

So quantifying prices in terms of a homepage, additional layouts etc is
meaningless. I don't find your distinction that only web apps (and not other
parts of the web) require both visual and UX design helpful.

@JonWood gets it pretty spot on: handing over a pretty PSD file is getting
less common as more design agencies get involved in prototyping and front-end
development. Creating a visual language and building blocks is far more
useful.

~~~
sgdesign
Agreed. I charge by the hour myself (although looking back at the totals for
various recent projects, I find that they end up pretty close to the average
survey results).

I'll be the first to admit that it's extremely hard to estimate the costs of
designing (or even developing) a site. That being said, I think even vague
figures such as these can be useful, if only to establish a basic minimum
budget for projects.

------
wofser
I always answers like this:

"How much does a website cost?" "It depends". "Depends on what?" "A lot of
things".

I am a web developer, not a web designer.

~~~
jurre
I know that you're right and I know that it is the wrong question to ask, but
answering it like that is what makes a lot of non-dev/designers dislike us.
Maybe try helping them ask the right question by saying something like: "Well
it depends on what you want, what kind of website are we talking about?". It
might take a couple of minutes more to answer their question but it has a much
higher chance of actually getting a new potential client.

~~~
asto
But why do web developers and designers always get these kind of questions?
One would hardly go into a shop selling watches and ask how much _a_ watch
costs. Why then ask a vague question that just cannot be answered? I think
giving an equally vague reply is fair.

~~~
HeyLaughingBoy
But that is completely different. In a watch store, I can point to a specific
watch and ask "how much does that one cost?" It's hard to do the same with a
website unless the designer/programmer has a portfolio to browse.

~~~
asto
Why not point at a website and ask how much would that cost? In the sense "I'd
like a website that works and looks like HN. How much would you charge to make
it for me?"

Maybe watches aren't perfectly analogous. How about walking into a real estate
office and asking how much a house costs?

~~~
HeyLaughingBoy
A good real estate agent would sit that person down and find out from them
what kind of house they'd be likely to want. So questions like how many people
will live in it, how long a commute can you have, how much can you afford, etc
will all come into play. And from that info, the agent will be able to show a
few houses and home in on what the person really wants.

I remember buying my first house and that's pretty much how it played out.

The point is that the RE Agent takes the buyer seriously enough to figure out
if they are just fishing or ready to buy and doesn't just blow them off with
flippant responses.

------
darksaga
Building the site is just the start of the process in my eyes. I always give
one estimate for the design/development/seo of a site. The importance of
keeping the content, SEO and design fresh cannot be undersold to the client.
Letting your site anguish for a few years will cost you visitors and business.
And today, it happens even faster. A site that sits for more than 6 months is
in danger of losing page rank.

For me, the cost isn't in the initial development, it's in the cost of
maintaining the site (design/content) and continuing to rank well in the
search engines for the life of the site (seo/sem). This also presents the best
opportunity to create a long term relationship and an ongoing revenue stream
for the developer.

------
csomar
I wonder how templates stock sites like Themeforest affects the designers
business. Now to start your web app, you don't really need a designer, but
just $20 or less and you get something very good for the little money you put.

~~~
sgdesign
As a designer myself, I think templates are great. The reality is that most
business don't need a completely custom template, especially if they're still
in that MVP stage.

So when you're starting out and don't have a big budget, by all means use a
template. I would much rather work with your company when it's more mature and
money is less of a concern.

To put in another way, template are in competition with cheap cookie-cutter
design (e.g. crowdsourcing sites), not higher quality design.

------
jrnkntl
(native) Mobile apps in the same price range as websites? That's really not my
experience; it's most of the time double or triple what a website with similar
functionality would cost.

~~~
eli
I've been quoted $20k+ for a mobile app of any complexity

~~~
sgdesign
Just for the design? Was that an agency or freelancer? Seems pretty expensive
for a freelancer, at least according to the survey results (and my own
experience).

------
mikey_p
I'm really surprised by the responses here. No one is saying that you should
smart off to a client, but the quality of an estimate is going to be in
response to the quality of the question. "How much is a website?" is about as
helpful as phoning a builder and asking "How much does it cost to build a
house?"

(I'm also waiting for commenters to rip me to shreds for the analogy, since HN
seems to hate analogies, but it's the best way I can describe it)

------
lysol
This should really just be a graph with two lines: A very small one that says
'As much as I quoted', and a far larger line that says 'Much more than I
quoted'.

------
md1515
Some 14 year olds can design pretty well. Plus - logo matters, but not that
much. Look at Hacker News...it looks like someone taking beginner programming
made it. Nonetheless, the content is fabulous - that's the point

------
anons2011
Would be interesting to get some feedback from other freelance front-end devs
as well, in terms of pricing. As I known I'm probably completely
undercharging.

------
kaffeinecoma
What's interesting is that these prices are for design only; they do not
include HTML/CSS, much less code to make a webapp functional.

------
toblender
Wow nice article, I was wondering if I was charging too much for my recent
bid. Good to see other people are charging in that range.

~~~
fleitz
Don't worry what other people are charging, worry what your clients are paying
and that they are happy.

~~~
shabble
If you quote a number and people are happy to pay it straight up, there's a
reasonable chance you're pricing too low.

You might not want to scrape out the absolute maximum each client will pay for
each job (at the least, it's a very difficult thing to actually determine, and
makes for a bad client experience if you're negotiating too hard), but it's
always good to have a sanity check that they're not happy merely because
you're charging way below market rates for your talent.

~~~
eru
Wasn't there a rule of thumb: Unless a sizeable portion of your potential
clients think you are too expensive, up your rates.

------
atomicdog
>How much do you charge for a mobile app?

Why are web designers (as opposed to software developers) being asked about
mobile applications?

------
Osiris
This is a bit off-topic, but I'm actually looking to build a new website to
replace my current poorly-designed one. It's basically just three static
pages. Current website and contact info are in my profile. Contact me if
you're interested.

------
esutton
i for one am tired of the hourly model. set a price whatever it may be. If you
go low, you'll charge more the next time. if you go high, people will go to
someone else.

------
drtse4
Compared to the amounts i see on TinyProj (that usually are related to a full
implementation, not only design) these are way higher...

------
d_rwin
the worst anyone can do is approaching this as easy.

