
East German secret police guide for identifying youth subcultures (1985) - ilamont
https://twitter.com/industrial_book/status/1066411965004812288
======
x220
One subculture I got somewhat involved in was the internet cyberpunk-hacker
culture, until about a year ago. Communicating through 4chan threads, alt-
chans, and IRC channels, these users were always interesting to read from on
various topics such as cyberpunk media, politics, current events, hacking,
software, fashion, and travel.

I'm dismayed that it petered out. I see the cyberpunk form of art and
worldview as more useful with each passing year.

~~~
malvosenior
Do you have any theories as to why it petered out? Like you I feel it's more
relevant today than ever before but also can't find a growing or healthy
community with that mindset anymore.

~~~
x220
Aside from conspiracy-theorizing about current events (and I don't use that
term pejoratively), people tended to discuss the same topics. New cyberpunk
media doesn't come out very often, so people tended to talk about the same
books, movies, manga, anime, videogames, and fashion. Some of the alt-chans
with dedicated cyberpunk boards would run out of ideas to talk about pretty
quickly, since there weren't enough posts that the website had to prune old
threads like 4chan did.

Another hypothesis I have is that cyberpunk media is not as captivating as it
used to be since we arguably live in a cyberpunk world. In America there is
unimaginable wealth inequality, with some cities having insane costs of rent
for cramped apartments, with access to the best technology and medicine in the
world but only if you can afford it. We also don't have to use media to
imagine a world where digital corporations have a huge amount of power over
daily life and the government spies on everyone all the time since both of
those things are happening right now. I think we live in a cyberpunk world, it
just doesn't have huge buildings, neon lights, and widespread punk fashion.

I came in contact with a few guys who wanted to make another alt-chan with a
different model (see what other users are typing in real-time, and all posts
get deleted early in the morning) but it never materialized as far as I can
tell.

Edit: do any of you want to join an online cyberpunk community?

~~~
ip26
Another challenge is when your alt culture goes mainstream, now it's just
culture. The alt community has to tack deeper to the extremes to stay alt. You
don't need an alt board to talk about current events (aside from conspiracy
theories)

~~~
ebullientocelot
While this is true, I still experience a little of that early-exposure-to-the-
Internet sense of wonder when I stumble across a community that's off the
beaten path technologically. sdf.org's Gopher service was such an experience
in the past couple years.

------
peisistratos
Sounds like the same kind of guides that were being printed in the West
[https://twitter.com/TurnerMarko/status/1066830331288973314](https://twitter.com/TurnerMarko/status/1066830331288973314)

~~~
detaro
Although I'm sure there was a lot of judge-y material about sub-cultures in
the west too, that one is not a good example at least. I don't think a short,
neutral guide to (edit: mostly) looks is "the same kind" as a police state's
guide to "negative-decadent" youths that also goes into to who behaves the
least "appropriate for society", political ideas and suspect affiliations.

~~~
rhizome
The terms "police state" and "decadent" in the US are only used to describe
other countries. The sentiments carry over, they're just called "law and
order" and "losers" here.

~~~
pvg
Suggesting that the US has become a decadent, past-its-prime empire or that it
is turning into a police state are pretty standard-issue critiques and have
been for many decades. You can regularly find them on HN, too.

~~~
rhizome
The specific term "decadent" is tarred in the US by its Marxist associations
and it's use by Nazis in their Entartete Kunst critique.

You're right, the sentiment persists, but with different words, which was my
point.

------
Tomte
Fascinating! Even back then people confused apostrophes with French accent
marks. It's no new occurrence.

Survey of appearances of negative-decadent youths in the GDR

From the left:

* Ted's

Age: 15-30 years

Very small group by numbers, fanatic supporters of 50's Rock'n'Roll. Usually
organized in respective fan clubs.

Clothing in 50's style: Skinny jeans, Winklepickers. Hair in the style of
R&R-times (Elvis quiffe, "Duck").

Politically uninterested.

Hardly noticed operationally, activities mostly at birth and death days of
idolized rock stars.

* Tramper (bum, blueser)

Age: 20-30 years.

Classic manifestation of the negative-decadent youth in the 70's. Blues fans.
Participation in traditional events.

Long hair, jeans parka, tramping, Birkenstock (literally: "jesus slippers"),
beards, sometimes fashin accessories similar to Hippies.

Not bound to any political worldview.

Noticed through organizing inter-regional meetings, no firm attachment to
church groups, hardly growing.

* Skins

Age: 15-22 years.

English: "head skin". society-threatening manifestation of negative-decadent
youths as lone wolfs or in loose groups without firm structures.

Outer attributes: baldness or very short hair, bomber jacket, skinny jeans,
high steel-toe boots studded with nails and iron.

Deprecative negative to hostile political attitude, partly neo-fascist
tendencies, glorification and use of violence, brutal action.

In danger of criminality (rowdyism, battery, resistance to state action.

Partly in open church youth groups.

* Heavys

Age: 15-25 years.

Fan of the so-called Heavy-Meta music (extremely hard rock).

Similarity to rockers in the west: black leather clothing, leather cap, Rivet-
studded jackets and pants, wearing heavy chains etc., normal to semi-long
hair.

Originally deprecative attitude towards state and society, growing integration
into organizations forms og the Free German Youth with society-conforming
attitudes.

Originally aggressive attitude, partly neo-fascist tendencies after the
example of the west, with the proliferation of Heavy music increasingly
society-conforming.

* Goths

Age: 15-20 years.

New Heavy scene, originating in hostility to that, glorofication of creepy
effects, satanic and death cult, fans of the group "The Cure".

black or white dyed hair, sticking out in all directions. White powdered face,
black clothing. Wearing of symbols like crucifixes upside down.

Totally uninterested in politics and society.

Hardly noticed operationally. High profile by collecting grave utensils,
sometimes grave desecration. Calm, isolated from other youths.

* Punks

Age: 15-22 years.

English: Garbage/trash.

Characterized externally through documented decadence, society-adverse to
-threatening. No firm structures.

Filthy, torn, paint-sprinkled clothing, utensils like safety pins/razor
blades. multi-coloured, scraggy hair, partly "Irokese haircut".

Deprecative to hostile political attitude, rejection of all state forms and
societal norms. Glorification of anarchist thoughts, "total freedom".

Violent appearance, criminal actions and antisocial ways of life, often
regulars in public church youth groups, instructed by Deacons.

* New Romantics

Age: 15-18 years.

English: "New romantics", "dropout" movement, developed from punk, is punk's
more society-conformant variant.

Black or grey clothing, often contrasting black-red as a symbol of anarchy.
Hair most of the time dyed black, short at the back and the sides, long on
top. Hanging into the face, eyes concealed.

Stand for same negative to hostile postitions as Punks,but reject all forms of
glorification and use of violence.

Partly attached to church youth work, diminishing tendency.

* Popper

Age: 13-20 years.

Performing as break-dancer. Notable one-sided interest in disco and dancing.

Youth with extremely modern clothing. Haircut similar to New Romantics, multi-
coloured.

Totally uninterested in politics.

So far no operational appearance. Mostly involved in quarrels with Heavys.

~~~
neurobashing
How in the heck did rockabilly/greasers end up as "Teds"? The rest pretty much
lines up with the West but man, that one seems like someone misheard
something.

~~~
dsgriffin
Probably had something to do with the British Teddy Boy subculture:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teddy_Boy](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teddy_Boy)

------
jlg23
The only thing interesting to translate is the title "Overview of appearances
of negative-decadent adolescents in the GDR".

Of note is that several entries refer to connections to the church[es] (esp
youth work of those) - it makes perfect sense when one understands that
christian churches (mostly protestants in the GDR, afaik) were seen by many
parents as a more liberal alternative to state sponsored youth groups (liberal
as in "not preaching communism non-stop").

~~~
cf498
To be clear, the term protestant is something different in Germany then in the
US. The is also no "the churches" in a broader sense. There is the catholic
church and the evangelical church in Germany, who are protestants by name and
broadly lutherans. And thats it, only those two.

Both had people involved in the GDR civil rights movement, one of the recent
German presidents, Joachim Gauck was an Lutheran/Protestant pastor and an anti
communist civil rights activists, who wrote the preamble of the German version
of the black book of communism. He compared the UDSSR to the Hitler regime. I
would be careful to call that "liberal". It was mostly conservative and has
been so after the reunification.

The role of the two churches is an extremely difficult subject throughout the
last century and I dont think broad generalizations help anyone here.

~~~
natechols
"Liberal" and "conservative" also have very different meanings depending on
country and context, and I don't see how opposition to the Stasi or GDR
government automatically makes someone a conservative. Gauck was supported by
the Social Democrats and the Greens, both of which are very progressive (well
to the left of US democrats).

~~~
cf498
> I don't see how opposition to the Stasi or GDR government automatically
> makes someone a conservative.

His opposition didnt make him a conservative or a liberal. He just is a
conservative.

------
lostgame
Would love a translation for this, if possible. Looks humorous for sure.

------
charlesism
If you're interested in this, check out the documentary _B-Movie_ :

[https://youtu.be/tj3qj6KNcLU](https://youtu.be/tj3qj6KNcLU) (trailer)

It's essentially home movies of an Englishman involved with the 1980s (mainly
West-) German music industry.

------
l0b0
An English translation would be interesting - all the jargon and abbreviations
makes this hard to read.

~~~
cf498
There is really not much to read. The title is as bad/good as it gets.

Overview of appearances of "negatively decadent" youth in the GDR.

Skin heads are rowdies prone to be fascists, Metal heads are violent and punks
are dirty junk people who smell bad and are anarchists. Also, Teds, Tramper,
Grufties and popper are not interested in politics.

~~~
microtherion
One amusing detail is how Metal heads are described as having basically
"society-conforming attitudes".

Judging from my own circle of acquaintances, I think the secret police
assessment is quite accurate there.

~~~
coldtea
It pretty much is.

"Study of 80s metalheads finds that they turn out to be better adjusted than
those who listened to other music"

[https://www.theguardian.com/music/2015/jul/08/metal-fans-
tur...](https://www.theguardian.com/music/2015/jul/08/metal-fans-turn-out-to-
be-happier-than-everyone-else)

Outside of some darker corners of the genre, most Heavy Metal listeners just
like fun, some sex, some drinks, and some noise. They aren't even that big on
drugs. And they're quite communal as a scene.

Whereas other genres attract more self-destruction, isolation, and negativity.

------
walshemj
Teds in 1980's East Germany - now that's something I would not have expected.

------
gammateam
Subculture affiliation after 30 years old being the biggest sacrilege of them
all

~~~
nomel
Maybe I'm taking the definition too literally,

> an ethnic, regional, economic, or social group exhibiting characteristic
> patterns of behavior sufficient to distinguish it from others within an
> embracing culture

But wouldn't your presence here indicate your participation in a type of
subculture?

~~~
gammateam
this is about the age ranges in the police dossier

