
Ask HN: Finally have loose change and spare time, but no sense of purpose. Help. - groaner
(Apologies in advance for the rantish nature of this.)<p>24, programmer at BigCo for several years, and I'm lost.<p>I've socked away enough coins to maintain my current lifestyle for the next 10 years, longer if I scale back a few things.  (Believe me, it's pretty easy to do considering that I've never had car, house, or girlfriend -- and I plan to keep it that way for the forseeable future.)  I've also freed myself of most of my other obligations that previously consumed my evenings and weekends.<p>I should be excited about this but I'm not, and I don't know why.<p>What I do know is that my current situation is unsustainable for long.  I'm sick of corporate America and all its bureaucratic shenaningans, where I'm only learning the wrong way to get things done.  I want out.<p>But I don't know what's next.  I'm not in shape to start a company because I don't have any sort of overarching passion that will keep me motivated no matter what, nor do I have any monetizable hobbies or interests.  I also have serious doubts about my programming skill, let alone ability to run a business.  Everything I've been interested in making already exists in a form better than I can ever do myself.  (That ought to be a wonderful thing in itself, but my selfish ego demands that I <i>personally</i> make a difference somewhere.)<p>Traveling around the world is frequently suggested here.  I like to travel, and have done a fair amount of it.  But I can't shake the feeling that I'm running away from my problems and not confronting them.<p>I realize that I'm blessed, maybe even spoiled.  I've won the genetic lottery by having loving parents who encouraged me to work hard and do well.  I've won the geographic lottery by having the opportunity to live in the USA, especially California.  I've won the timing lottery by entering college when competition was less fierce and scholarships were more plentiful, and by graduating into a healthier job market just before the economy crashed.  Life has dealt me a very good hand, yet I feel like I'm not making good use of it.<p>I think I have a variant of Early 21st Century Syndrome (cf. http://www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/93yaq/anyone_else_here_feel_like_theyre_never_fully/c0bcp8m?context=1).  I wouldn't say I'm suffering from depression or burnout right now, but I strongly suspect that if I just quit without a plan, I will be heading there.  (Either that, or I'll end up wasting my time on video games and internet.)<p>I probably just need an attitude change.  But that in itself just seems so hard...
======
edw519
Here's what you need to do:

1\. Find someone who needs help.

2\. Help them.

That's it. It's not about you and your skills and your intelligence and your
blessings and your depression and your inner psychology etc. etc. etc. It's
about others.

They may need help in an area you're already familiar with, but maybe not.
Either way, you'll learn something new, they'll get where they need to be, and
your situation will profoundly morph into something else.

The sooner you start helping someone else, the sooner you will wonder how you
could have ever posted this. A hundred ideas will come your way when you least
expect them, along with the energy to do something about them. You will find
that there's lots to be done and you're the perfect person to do them. You'll
have a different problem then. You'll need help getting all of it done. So
you'll be making a very different post to hn. I'm looking forward to that one.

~~~
bfung
Some more thoughts... Travelling: Go somewhere you don't speak the language,
and where they won't be good at English. Don't do the tourist locations. Find
out how other people live their daily lives and reflect upon it.

Perhaps you will want to help people less fortunate than yourself. Perhaps
you'll want to help people like yourself because you discover that you are
actually less fortunate in some other sense.

At the very worse, don't waste your life on video games and internet, unless
you're going to create a video game that might need to be online.

I had an even longer-winded reply, but it basically boils down to the 2 steps
from edw519.

------
bugsy
Figure out what sort of looks and cultural qualities you like in a
wife/girlfriend. Travel to that country and live there for a couple months
staying in hostels or couch surfing. Meet girls. Extend the 2 months as long
as needed, switching countries if there are issues. Marry foreign girl. Stay
in her country where you now have a spouse visa. Start new life.

The reason for this advice is because you said "I'm sick of corporate America
and all its bureaucratic shenaningans, where I'm only learning the wrong way
to get things done. I want out." and you also said you didn't have any ideas
for new products or interest in starting your own company. So move to a place
where everything is different and that should be sufficient challenge to keep
you interested in life. Bureaucracy might be the same, but it's going to be a
different kind of bureaucracy.

I also strongly recommend you find a girl with the exact opposite personality
as you. If you are introverted, she should be extroverted. If you are
analytical and cautious, she should be free spirited. There are actually
studies that have shown the exact opposite Myers-Briggs personality type is an
ideal match since you'll complement each other very well as a unit, creating a
balanced unit facing the world. So if you are a INTJ programmer she should be
a ESFP party girl. You might say gosh but we have nothing in common, I can't
relate to her way of thinking at all. And it turns out that's exactly what is
best. Rather than stay at home surfing the net or playing video games or
whatever she'll drag you out to parties or art openings where you'll meet some
ambassador or Nobel Prize winner or what not.

~~~
AlexandrB
Could you link to these studies? I seem to recall reading the exact opposite a
little while ago (similar people do better together), but I'm not sure where I
read that either.

As a practical matter, it seems to me that an INTJ would have a hard time
meeting an ESFP since they would not enjoy the same activities and would not
cross paths too often.

~~~
bugsy
Kiersey cites them in his book, which I don't have a copy of right now. They
tested couples and their satisfaction with marriage, and then formulated type
recommendations. This is also how the career counseling angle works. They
actually test people in various careers and then find who is happiest and most
successful, and this is what forms the basis of recommendations for career
counseling based on MBTI results. It's not subjective but based on what tends
to work out well in terms of happiness between people in relationships and
between person and career in large populations.

For relationships the results are sorted not by the most common pairings, but
the most successful.

As far as INTJ meeting ESFP, it does happen. People meet in bars, get
references from others, meet in church. Perhaps INTJ is tutoring math to ESFP
who is studying to be an elementary school teacher and they start dating.

In a relationship this is a pretty good entrepreneurial husband/wife pairing
as well. Husband makes the product, wife does sales and marketing (ESFP
specialty) and finds out from customers what they really need. ESFP in this
case will help him understand and interface with the bureaucratic mentality,
and also provide a front face and extremely enthusiastic explanations of his
incredible value to the company he works for, or the investors who are funding
him, or whatever he is up to. She'll also naturally bring him into contact
with these investors, partners, or mentors and massively leverage his life
opportunities, which will lead to a lot of success and happiness.

The world is not made for INTJ or INTP and does not understand either of them.
The right partner can and will completely solve this problem.

With opposite pairings, there is no friction or stress from one trying to
change the other because they are so different that sort of change is thought
impossible, it would be like an elephant trying to change a giraffe into an
elephant.

------
marquis
Wow, what an opportunity. The world is yours - may I recommend that you
travel? Travel cheap, see the world. Find your passion. Don't worry about what
you are going to do in the future, you have so much time to build a
life/lives.

Concrete examples? Volunteer, either near home or internationally (though
don't get stuck in a 'paid' volunteer system, just pay for your own travel but
don't get charged to work anywhere as a volunteer)

Working Holiday visa You can live and travel for a year of more, no visa
worries. For example, go to Australia, hang out and get some exercise, go
surfing, pick apples, then go see Indonesia, Thailand, Laos.. then when you
get back to the States you'll be even more unbelievably spoiled, but you'll
have an idea of what you want to do with your opportunity.

I'm sure others here could give more examples. When I was 24 I had already
packed up and was just traveling, freelancing digitally as I needed, until
something came along that was interesting enough to stay put for.

~~~
groaner
I've thought long and hard about this. I really do want to do this, but I
don't know if I can pull it off.

I'm afraid that I'll wind up like Antoine Roquentin from Sartre's _Nausea_ \--
a long world tour followed by disappointment and existential crisis.

~~~
marquis
I love the reference, and don't forget Candide... something I tell my friends
who are a little hesitant to start off: remember that whatever you are leaving
behind you can come back to, and regardless of what happens you'll have
stories to come back with.

~~~
groaner
Thanks for the _Candide_ recommendation. I've had it on my reading list for a
while but I'm picking it up on my next library trip.

------
frankus
Joel Spolsky has a great piece on doing a self-funded sabbatical:

<http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/fog0000000076.html>

If you can swing it financially, that's probably a really good place to start.
Get out of California for a while. You're quite correct in that it's different
from the rest of the US, in some ways better and in some ways worse. You're
(I'm assuming) legally entitled to work anywhere in the US, so consider taking
advantage of that.

Finally, I think the whole "finding something you're passionate about" thing
is largely bullshit. This article:

[http://calnewport.com/blog/2009/11/24/are-passions-
serendipi...](http://calnewport.com/blog/2009/11/24/are-passions-
serendipitously-discovered-or-painstakingly-constructed/)

lays it out much more eloquently than I could. If you can get really good at
one or two things that you don't hate you'll start to see interesting work in
those fields come your way.

------
hugh3
Classic quarter-life crisis. It will pass.

However; you're _24_ and you've _never had a girlfriend_? And you feel like
there's something missing in your life? I don't think joining a startup or
learning ten new programming languages is the solution to your problems...

~~~
groaner
Please. I know I have a fair share of problems, but you seem awfully quick to
pass judgment as to this being one of them. Care to elaborate?

EDIT: Let me just say that I'm in no shape to get into a relationship. I will
just be dumping my problems on her and making her miserable instead.

~~~
petercooper
FWIW, I never had a steady girlfriend till I was 23 (married to her and have a
kid now, 6 years on) and it didn't bother me. Definitely don't feel pushed by
society or embarrassment into prematurely settling down (or ever settling down
at all, I know several people over 40 who have been permanently single and
have rich lives).

~~~
Splines
Definitely agree here. A girlfriend is only one of many people with whom you
can share a close relationship. Close non-intimate relationships with anyone
can be just as rewarding.

I've done a lot of boneheaded things in my youth, and postponing romantic
relationships to a later time probably would have resulted in me making better
decisions when faced with the same situation. I'd like to think so, at least.

------
jaysonelliot
Spend time helping others for a while.

This is actually a very selfish thing to do, no matter how counter-intuitive
that sounds.

Studies on human happiness have shown repeatedly that we are actually made
happier by giving to others than by receiving things.

It doesn't really matter what you choose. Build houses with Habitat for
Humanity, Try Volunteers for Peace and dig wells and build homes in the third
world. <http://www.vfp.org/> Try volunteering to help children with Unicef.

You'll find that physical work without the burden of worrying about things
like "what's it all about" or "what's my passion" will make you happier, give
you great experiences and memories, and introduce you to things about the
world that could positively affect you for the rest of your life.

Forget startups, you're in a position to do what few people have the
opportunity to do.

~~~
groaner
Interesting take.

I have volunteered before, at community events and the food bank. It felt
uncomfortable because I did indeed feel selfish doing those things.

It's reassuring to know that this is completely normal.

~~~
jaysonelliot
I hope you'll post a followup on HN once you make a decision, this is actually
a very interesting post. Good luck!

------
jey
Great! Now quit your job and take some time to just explore. I'm not talking
about places; I mean thoughts, ideas, and projects.

Derek Sivers on "finding your passion": <http://sivers.org/passion>

By the way, have you already put in your 10 years of coding on projects that
push at and stretch your programming ability? If not, you really have no
justification to say you're not capable of being a good programmer, and just
sounds to me like one of those things people say when they're having a down
day.

Peter Norvig's "Teach Yourself Programming in 10 Years":
<http://norvig.com/21-days.html>

~~~
groaner
_Great! Now quit your job and take some time to just explore. I'm not talking
about places; I mean thoughts, ideas, and projects._

Sure, sounds great, but is quitting really necessary for that? I did say that
I do have spare time now, and although I'm not addicted to a paycheck, I don't
think I can just leap into the abyss either.

Unfortunately, right now my "ground state" (as so eloquently described here:
<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1536432>) seems to be mindless worrying,
and I think quitting my job will simply enable me to do that full-time.

 _By the way, have you already put in your 10 years of coding on projects that
push at and stretch your programming ability? If not, you really have no
justification in saying you're not capable of being a good
programmer.<http://norvig.com/21-days.html> _

I don't doubt that I'm capable, I just don't think I'm there yet. I've been
programming for more than 10 years, but not all of it counts as deliberate
practice.

~~~
jey
_but is quitting really necessary for that?_

Short answer: Yes.

Why are you so attached to having a full-time job? Is the point of life to
just spend all of it working and accumulating cash? You're in a great position
to grant yourself a sabbattical/mini-retirement/etc. I also have no idea what
abyss you're worried about falling into; it sounds like you're already in one.
Jobs are a commodity, lifetimes aren't.

Or you could look at it as a new job: you're going to be employed by yourself
with the objective of reinventing yourself and learning to _live_. Your task
is to spend 40 hours/week on moving toward self-actualization: learning to be
independent, having a girlfriend, and finding your passions. (Edit: And spend
time volunteering and making a difference in others' lives as people have
suggested in this thread.)

Where in California are you? I know a couple of "hacker houses" in Berkeley
and SF that are filled with interesting and passionate people. You could spend
a couple months in one and immerse yourself in a fun, interesting, engaging
environment.

Relevant:
[http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1112823,00....](http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1112823,00.html)

You should also check out the book "4 Hour Work Week". I don't subscribe to
the literal idea of a 4 hour work week, but the life-optimization philosophy
explained in it is inspirational and makes a lot of sense.

------
dstein
The following video, narrated by Alan Watts, and animated by Trey Parker and
Matt Stone, eloquently describes exactly what you have figured out:

[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ERbvKrH-
GC4&feature=playe...](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ERbvKrH-
GC4&feature=player_embedded)

You essentially have come to the realization that the things you have been
lead to believe (career, wealth, social status, possessions) are not what will
make you happy. This realization can go down a dark path of depression if
you're not careful, so be careful and stay level headed. Definitely take time
off, pursue interests you never had time for and completely stop worrying
about the future. That's the important part, to stop thinking there's some
sort of end goal that you're working toward.

~~~
groaner
Thanks! I saw that a long time ago but definitely appreciated seeing it again.
It was certainly helpful.

------
jcfrei
For an instant change I suggest you'd break out of some of your usual habits.
Since I don't know what those are, take my suggestions with a grain of salt:

Don't go home after work - join a gym, go bicycling, walk thru the city till
it gets dark.

If you're used to go to bed early - stay up late and spend the next day at the
office trying not to fall asleep.

If you don't hang out during the weekends - call some of your friends and get
really wasted.

etc.

The point is getting new perspectives on life, new experiences will help you
find out what you really want and need.

------
jcr

      > I'm not in shape to start a company because I don't have any sort of overarching passion that will keep me motivated no matter what, nor do I have any monetizable hobbies or interests. I also have serious doubts about my programming skill, let alone ability to run a business. Everything I've been interested in making already exists in a form better than I can ever do myself. (That ought to be a wonderful thing in itself, but my selfish ego demands that I personally make a difference somewhere.)
    

I believe I know the answer you seek, but I'm not sure if my body will hold
out long enough to type it. The details of my health are my own, but it should
suffice to say that moving and even typing come at a price.

When I was near your age a dear friend of mine, Regina Riley, was kind enough
to share an important bit of wisdom; When you say, "I'm Bored," you are
actually saying, "I'm Boring."

For many people, it can be a very harsh revelation.

The additional difficult revelation is; fascinating people are fascinated, and
fascination is a choice.

An alternate, but equally accurate, way to phrase it is; interesting people
are interested, and interest is a choice.

You must choose to be interested. You must choose to be fascinated. It might
be a thing, or a field, or a topic, or even another person. Your choice is an
investment, and every investment has a price. It may or may not be the very
best investment you could make, but it is guaranteed to pay off in some way.

In taking the time to type this, I chose to have an interest in you as a
fellow human being, and I made an investment at a higher price than most must
pay to post an opinion on a forum. I could flatter myself with the effort I've
put forth to type this. I could flatter myself with believing I spotted the
root of your problem. I could flatter myself with making a difference in your
life by sharing something that was shared with me.

I don't need self-important flattery, and I honestly have no clue if this will
be helpful to you in any way. It may have been a poor choice of investments.

None the less, I'm happily content with just knowing I tried my best to be
interested and invested in helping another human being. I decided to be
interesting. Can you say the same?

~~~
groaner
Let it be known that your investment has paid off in, at minimum, a grateful
reader and an upvote.

The really scary thing is that I've noticed I'm having an easier time
acknowledging that I'm boring than taking action to change that. I'm still
trying to fight the idea that I might be fundamentally lazy.

But thank you for your support! It will be a difficult journey for me as well.

------
TomOfTTB
I was in the same situation (besides being a little younger thanks to the
outrageous salaries of the late-90s) and what I did was to join a non-profit
that helps people. The pay sucks and it won't get you completely away from
politics but at least you'll be helping people while not spending your money
(and politics aren't so bad when you know you're being paid below your worth
because you have a lot more leverage)

Non-Profits notoriously have lousy technology and unfortunately the low pay
can draw even worse IT people. So someone who has the skills to make it in the
private sector can make a big difference.

At this point in my life I can point to literally thousands of children who
are at least a tiny bit better off because I was here and that's worth a lot
to me. If you think it would be for you too than it's an option I'd check out.

------
brk
When you say you've never had a "house", does this mean you still live with
your parents?

I think you mostly have existed and not actually lived. You should probably
start by just gaining some independence and some outside extracurricular
activities.

You _should_ have a house/apartment, a car, a girlfriend, some hobbies. Lack
of these things and the ability to live for 10 years on any amount you could
have reasonably amassed as a 24 year old corporate programmer is most likely
not a topic to brag on. This should be an indication that you need to expand
your horizons.

~~~
groaner
I think you have described me well.

I'm not bragging. You should be able to tell from what I've written that I'm
not proud of what I've done in life so far.

Is it wrong for me to prioritize getting some real stuff done over having a
car, house, or girlfriend? It's not like a gas-guzzling vehicle will make me
any happier, and I find gardening distinctly unenjoyable. No comment yet on
this relationship stuff.

~~~
brk
What is "real stuff"?

~~~
groaner
Excellent question.

Something that makes a difference in the lives of real people. In all honesty
I don't know any more than that, but I have a hard time believing that it's
any of those things you mentioned.

~~~
brk
The answers you seek lie not within your browser...

The best way to see what makes a difference in the lives of people is to get
out and meet them.

A good start would be just gaining some independence for yourself. The world
suddenly looks very different when you remove most of the safety nets and have
to sink or swim wholly of your own resources.

I personally don't think you should be considering world-changing events right
now. You should be looking towards simple things and expanding your own
horizons. You can split the difference by volunteering at some local
organizations and maybe joining some groups/clubs that seem at least mildly
intriguing.

BTW, in my prior post I didn't mean to imply that I thought you were bragging.

------
petercooper
_Everything I've been interested in making already exists in a form better
than I can ever do myself. (That ought to be a wonderful thing in itself, but
my selfish ego demands that I personally make a difference somewhere.)_

"Better" is subjective and based on multiple variables. IMHO Ferrari makes
better cars than Ford but Ford sells plenty of cars. I think Reddit is better
than Digg, but plenty of people disagree.

Be careful not to fall into a trap of seeing things as black and white.
There's a lot of fun and money in the grays ;-)

------
bhoung
There are some great comments here.

I disagree with leaping into the abyss because it's likely to be overwhelming
and counterproductive in this context.

Change one aspect of your life at a time and see what happens. Move houses,
change jobs, change social circles. Sit back and observe. It ties in with
trying something different but also makes it more manageable instead of
attempting to do everything at once. I think people have different tolerances
for the amount of change they can adapt to.

I second the comment on the corporate machine making you unproductive and
making you feel lazy. Corporations are large machines with huge overhead
because the rules are designed for average employees. On the whole, stuff gets
done, but at the individual level it minimizes upside and downside. Unless you
have a talent or discipline for office politics, it isn't an attractive
option. I would guess that the majority of HN readers would not enjoy that
environment.

The quarter-life crisis and the early 21st century syndrome is prevalent
amongst 20-30 yr olds. Societies are undergoing major change and it is
fascinating to see how we will respond to the choices presented to us. Now
that companies can be built with 2-3 people, it doesn't just allow for
ycombinator to succeed, it forces young programmers to assess whether a forty
year career path is the obvious choice. Personally, I think the life and
career goals of earlier generations is not applicable any more but are still
being passed down and unintentionally causing cognitive dissonance.

------
pedalpete
You're groaning in the wrong headspace I would say.

You're looking at your life and groaning about the lack of passion and
interest in the things around you.

Everything you find is 'good enough'. Damnit man! Get dissatisfied!

You've got a healthy dose of skepticism, which is highly underrated, now you
need to develop your ability to find issues, flaws and opportunities in what
is around you. Products, services, the way things are done. They may be done
better than you could do them yourself, but are they done the best they ever
will be? How would you improve them, then learn how to build it yourself and
that makes a better product.

One of the interesting things I've found about passion is that in some ways,
it can often be found lurking within you and just needs to be discovered and
awakened.

I think one thing shared by all passionate people is that they rarely seem
passionate about something that involves only them. It is in the service of
others that most people find their passion. As an example, look at the Charlie
Rose interview with Andrew Mason of Groupon
<http://techcrunch.com/2010/12/10/groupon-masin-charlie-rose/> Mason talks
about what Groupon does for businesses, what it does for people. It isn't
about what it does for him. FourSquare is somewhat useless, but Crowley talks
about how people are going to the gym more often and getting healthier because
they use it. It is often these purposes which lurk beneath the surface where
the passion can come from.

------
bigohms
If you haven't done so already, I would develop some spheres of influence
around the things that you already enjoy. The ability to bounce ideas and
receive healthy criticisms from trusted friends greatly increases your chances
of discovering something you are passionate about. You should have one "CPU
cycle" dedicated to exploring the options of this world, with the flexibility
to become deeper involved into them if desired.

Asian & Middle Eastern immigrants coming to America have not had "it" as good
as you have. They come here and are amazed and bewildered by the concept of
developing a stable and comfortable lifestyle on any area they choose to focus
in on. Possibilities are almost endless. There is some psychology available
that reinforces since you have not had anything different than the status quo,
you may have lost some of this bewilderment by fulfilling the typical young
adult lifestyle.

I reinitiated some of this by traveling India and China for a couple months,
at a time in my "career" as a web developer, where I felt commoditized beyond
recognition. The trek identified some faults in how I had been wasting my
time, wasting my talents and wasting the capabilities possible available. The
experiences, the sights were beyond anything I could have imagined on any
other ordinary "vacation".

------
user24
> Traveling around the world is frequently suggested here. I like to travel,
> and have done a fair amount of it. But I can't shake the feeling that I'm
> running away from my problems and not confronting them.

+1, I like to travel too, and perhaps spending a month trotting around Europe
would be an eye-opening experience, but I always think you'd get back home and
think "well... now what?". Similar to the feeling I get when I finish watching
a movie - enjoyable for the duration, but no real lasting benefit.

I can't speak for you, but I can share my ideas about what _I_ would do in
that position (I am a 27 year old developer with a good education and work
experience):

Take some taught courses to get my weaknesses up to scratch - for me it's
Mathematics and Motivation. I don't know how the second can be fixed but the
first is easy.

Then I would specialise in my interest areas - for me it's machine learning in
various forms. Probably I'd do a PhD.

I'd seek to network a lot better than I have in the past. I have friends
working for very exciting companies, and I think if we all got together
something amazing could happen, but they're mostly in London and I'm not. I'd
fix that too.

So in summary, my plan would be to get my knowledge and skills up to speed,
and then arrange my life to coincide with like-minded individuals as much as
possible.

------
jonsmock
I'm 26, and if I were in your shoes, I guarantee I'd feel the same way
(primarily, because I do already somewhat).

If I read this right, you're struggling to feel needed. I know this isn't
exactly the same thing as the need to make a difference in the world, but it
seems close enough to be actionable.

I say find some people who truly need you and do your best to help them. Is
that teaching? Is that fixing their situation? Is that creating a new idea or
product? This will take some exploration, but it has to be worth it, right?

And, none of us are perfect. I put the same pressure on myself (I've been
programming since 7th grade, and I feel the exact same way about my
questionable programming skills). But, we're all still learning, and I'm
betting you're smart enough to make a difference in at least one person's
life. Then you can extrapolate from there.

------
DavidAdams
Why don't you split the difference? I'm working on a new startup and it's got
all the excitement of a software startup, but it's in a niche market that's
very ripe and grateful, and there's the opportunity to travel to interesting
places to meet with customers (I'm going to Singapore next month), but we're
headquartered in Park City, UT, and the quality of life is very high here,
assuming you like skiing and mountain biking and outdoorsy stuff.

Maybe I could be working on a startup that's more high profile and more likely
to make me famous on HN and Techcrunch, but I prefer the more relaxed
lifestyle.

You don't have to make the choice between living for your work or just being a
mindless corporate drone. Work on something exciting and dynamic, and also
have a life. It's possible.

Why don't you come work here? We need engineers.

------
dkarl
First, decide whether you're going to have a career change or a career
interruption. If you decide on the latter, give it a few weeks. Just do
whatever you want and don't feel guilty or wonder how it will extrapolate into
the future. You are a smart and productive person; eventually you will find
yourself doing something you enjoy and are proud of.

It's natural that you're scared of the vacuum. A good friend of mine, a very
nice and moral person, told me that if he didn't believe in God there would be
nothing stopping him from stealing, lying, killing, and raping as much as he
could get away with. He was completely wrong, of course. Your worry that in
the absence of obligations you will waste your time and not do anything
worthwhile is wrong in the same way.

~~~
groaner
Thanks for your reassurance.

The problem is that I have evidence to the contrary. I have already started
wasting time and not doing anything worthwhile.

In any case, I don't see myself doing anything other than programming for a
career, though I ought to take some time to explore as well.

~~~
dkarl
That's why I said give it time :-)

Collapsing is a natural reaction to the removal of pressure. You have spent a
long time trying to do work that you didn't want to do. The corporate
experience trains you to believe that you are naturally lazy, because you
spend all day in agonized revulsion against the productive, useful work you
are asked to do. The secret is that just because you do not want to do certain
work for certain people does not mean you are lazy.

Other people have been in control of your productivity for a long time, and
your only freedom was to resist, shut down, and be lazy. You need to indulge
that until you feel completely reassured that you are free and in control of
your own life. Then your own tendencies will come out, and I guarantee you
that what little I know about you from your question (specifically, that you
have skills that took a lot of time and unwitting dedication to develop, and
that you worry about what you might or might not accomplish) is enough to know
that you will be happiest doing productive work.

~~~
groaner
Wow, I never thought of it that way. I really really want to believe this is
true... but time will tell.

------
marze
You needn't make any irrevocable decisions immediately, obviously. Three
things that could help that come to mind are to try new things, a short
vacation, and lots of time outdoors. Like this:

Take three weeks off over the holidays and spend it hiking in New Zealand and
swimming in the ocean. Eat new food, meet new people, but stay outdoors as
much as possible.

Although you say you don't thing you are suffering from depression or burnout,
it is possible you are in a mild sort of way. Exercise, sun, and healthy food
could all help if that were the case, making it easier to make good decisions
upon your return.

------
proexploit
Passion isn't the only motivator. There's a reason that you turn up at work
every day and keep working. Perhaps you just need to figure out what motivates
you and use that to move forward. This post itself seems to say you have
things you want to be doing or you wouldn't have made it. No need to rush
things. If you're content with your job and not unhappy, no need to change
anything before you know what to change.

------
wwortiz
Seems like maybe you should look at joining a startup as you don't want to (or
have the motivation) to run your own and want to stay away from big companies.

You also have prime location being in California, even if you think you are
lacking in the programming abilities it wouldn't hurt to try and get a job
doing that.

------
sebg
Go to <http://www.guinnessworldrecords.com/> pick a record to go for. rinse
and repeat. It'll be good for a laugh, some needed space from corporate
America and we can get to follow you along.

------
marcusbooster
You haven't won jack so stop feeling sorry for yourself. You're now in a
position through either drive or coincidence (doesn't matter) that you can
make a real impact on other people's lives, and now you have to meet that
obligation. Find problems and try and solve them - you can start a company,
volunteer, whatever - but you have to interact with people to understand what
they need. Plus it's better to to hang out with them in your 20's because by
the time they hit 30 they'll mostly be self-serving douche-bags (myself
included).

------
impendia
I have a concrete suggestion along the lines of some of the suggestions here.

I assume you live in at least a moderately big city (e.g. maybe SF Bay Area).
Pick up one of those alternative weekly newspapers, or find something
equivalent on the web, or somehow find some long list of activities, clubs,
and events that represent a decent cross-section of what people do.

Now number all of them -- make sure you get at least a hundred or so -- then
generate five random numbers, and choose at least two of the five activities
you randomly picked.

------
acconrad
If you want to boost your programming chops while doing something you care
about, why don't you join an early-stage startup for equity? They need people
who are willing to work for lower pay, and you will learn A TON about
something you enjoy. And usually super-early stage startups give you
flexibility of no official HR to dictate when you have to be there and when
you have to take a vacation. Sounds like a pretty simple solution to me.

------
ericsilver
It's the early days of the Internet. We've invented sail and gunpowder, and
we're just coming to the New World. If you're on Hacker News, you're a
navigator - a captain - a fierce programmer. Marketers and social networks,
data gatherers and marketers - your foes are numerous and powerful. Take your
desire to do something wonderful, find a crew you want to sail with, and get
started.

You'll be happier for having done it.

------
maxdemarzi
Go back to School.

Get a Master's degree in Computer Science if you are doubting your programming
skills. Take or Audit a bunch of weird classes (in and out of the CS branch)
and see if anything there interests you. Drink up (now that you can afford
quality beer) and get laid.

~~~
jholman
Argh. Going to get a Master's is NOT a solution to doubting your programming
skills! Professors cannot teach you how to write code, because they don't know
themselves.

(Going to school may or may not be a great move... but not for this reason!)

~~~
groaner
I did get a Master's. I don't think I did it properly though, since I went
there because it felt like the right thing to do, not because I had some great
interest to explore there.

------
klbarry
Join a start-up and share in the founder's passion, you will have the good
parts of the experience without the money stress.

~~~
groaner
Maybe I read too much Hacker News, but frankly I find a lot of startups
uninspiring. Social this, web-based that, yadda yadda.

Again, I might just need an attitude change, or I'm wearing the wrong glasses.

~~~
guylhem
Doing is easy. Finding out what you want to do is not - at least not for me.

It also seems you are self-deprecating. You must have some value - you were
not paid for doing nothing!

But maybe what was found valuable in you by corporate america differs from
what you define as a value.

Have you tried reading philosophy? It helped me. If philosophy is not your
thing you can try more accessible literature. My biased suggestion would be
Atlas Shrugged.

I would also suggest trying to define your life values (what's important for
you?) and following that, defining your life goals (where do you want to make
a chance?) - then it's "just" a matter of implementation.

~~~
groaner
Thanks. I just finished the _Meditations_ of Marcus Aurelius not too long ago,
and it was sobering but refreshing.

~~~
guylhem
I'd rather suggest Nietszche or Atlas Shrugged because they are better
remedies against actual nihilism IMHO. But whatever you read, if you find some
value in it - keep going !

Try lesswrong and transhumanist websites if that's your thing. Or anything
else - it's your tastes that matters.

As many others pointed in the thread, anomie is best fought if you create your
own meaning. To me, this meant defining my own values first.

