
Qatar Airways demands payment for training from terminated flight crew - Donmario
https://ukaviation.news/qatar-airways-you-are-no-longer-required-heres-a-130000-bill
======
gazoakley
More background here:

[https://onemileatatime.com/qatar-airways-fires-
pilot/](https://onemileatatime.com/qatar-airways-fires-pilot/)

[https://viewfromthewing.com/qatar-airways-firing-pilots-
and-...](https://viewfromthewing.com/qatar-airways-firing-pilots-and-sending-
them-a-bill/)

It's suggested in the first article that the pilot had failed to pass the
necessary exams:

"The other side of the story here is that the pilot has spent the past six
years completing a two year training course, and still hasn’t passed any of
the tests necessary to become a pilot. The airline became fed up, and since
they’re firing pilots anyway and trying to cut costs, they also decided to
terminate their contract with her at this point."

~~~
growse
Why would they hire someone so incapable in the first place?

~~~
truthsayer71
Interviews and tests don't determine how competent someone is going to be
performing a job in future, passing candidates are just as likelty to be as
competent or non competent. What you should really be asking is that how come
they end up hiring competent people in first place? Because those who apply
are already have knowledge or experience to help them be competent in first
place. I have seen some people who interview and pass tests well end up being
useless and sometimes those who initially don't present well end up being
competent. How would you determine competency in the first place? In many
cases with enough practice and assistance even the most incompetent can
perform the required tasks successfully. There is no test to show that anyone
is going to be competent or not in future. At above some intelligence level
everyone is just as likely to end up being competent in performing any job,
but the time that they have reached the position of applying for a specialised
job they are likely to be competent in.

------
9nGQluzmnq3M
By COVID standards, Qatar has actually been one of the better-off airlines in
the Gulf, since (unlike the UAE) they still allow transit passengers and have
been making some money flying stranded people around, even to the extent of
putting on entirely new destinations like Brisbane. But obviously their
business has still taken a huge hit and they've got a lot of excess capacity
to shed. As always, PPrune has the goss: [https://www.pprune.org/middle-
east/288896-joining-qatar-airw...](https://www.pprune.org/middle-
east/288896-joining-qatar-airways-qr-all-you-need-know-about-threads-
merged-513.html)

But this has always been the flip side of doing business in the Gulf: you're
paid well, but once you're no longer useful, you'll be discarded without a
second thought. This happened during the GFC as well and there were plenty of
stories of once high-flying expats sleeping in their cars.

------
helsinkiandrew
Are there any comprehensive websites that are documenting this type of
behaviour for the future - like Glassdoor but for consumers and investors?

Given an equal choice between buying something from two companies I'd choose
the one that had been nicer to its employees and community.

Case in point - I own a (quite small) number of shares in UK retailer Hotel
Chocolat. I'd probably have sold them if it wasn't for their apparently decent
policy: [https://www.hotelchocolat.com/uk/corona-virus-
updates.html](https://www.hotelchocolat.com/uk/corona-virus-updates.html)

~~~
hprotagonist
In the case of Qatar, you just have to read the news.

e.g., [https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/fifa-
qa...](https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/fifa-qatar-world-
cup-2022-migrants-dutch-union-slavery-fnv-bangladesh-court-legal-
action-a7356191.html)

------
ornornor
I think this clause is standard for cadets. I don’t agree with it but I
remember looking into becoming a cadet when I was much younger.

I distinctly remember EasyJet: you basically had to go to a bank to get the
loan for the whole cost of your pilot training (300k GBP iirc) in your name.
If you failed to pass any of the mandatory exams and steps during your
training, you’d be kicked out and have to repay the loan back on your own. If
you made it as a pilot, EasyJet would deduct part of your salary to pay back.

It seemed like a very shitty arrangement for the cadet/pilot wannabe where you
basically shoulder most of the risk for the privilege of working as a pilot
for EasyJet.

I didn’t enroll to become a pilot. I don’t regret it.

------
redis_mlc
It's an interesting situation.

Qatar Airlines pilot requirements are ICAO ATP, which you can convert to an
FAA license, or just go fly in China.

(It's more difficult to go the opposite way, from FAA to European (EASA.))

You will never hear of such a situation where the pilot is billed for ab
initio training in the US because US airlines do very little such training, if
any. When US airlines partner with a flight training academy, they just
promise to let graduates apply. :)

Sometimes US airlines will pay for (jet) type ratings, which cost in the $20k
range, and charge the pilot if they leave within a year.

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notRobot
This really sucks for those affected. It's one thing if an organisation
chooses to stop funding their employees' education further, but to sack them
and then demand compensation for what was supposed to be under "scholarship"?
Ugh. Shitty.

------
Retardo_88
I can't access the page. Can someone kindly provide a summary?

~~~
dzaragozar
Go to
[https://web.archive.org/web/20200511090135/https://ukaviatio...](https://web.archive.org/web/20200511090135/https://ukaviation.news/qatar-
airways-you-are-no-longer-required-heres-a-130000-bill/)

------
jonplackett
That’s it, I’m cancelling my summer holiday to Qatar.

~~~
vinay427
I can't tell if you're serious, but Qatar has had a long history of migrant
worker abuses and exploitation, perhaps most globally publicized due to the
FIFA World Cup controversies. This Qatar Airways incident is rather benign by
comparison. Migrant/foreign workers make up almost 90% of their workforce
according to this article, which honestly makes much of Qatar seem dependent
on something resembling indentured servitude:

[https://www.amnesty.org/en/countries/middle-east-and-
north-a...](https://www.amnesty.org/en/countries/middle-east-and-north-
africa/qatar/report-qatar/)

~~~
jonplackett
Don't worry, it was a joke! I thought that would be more obvious given the
current lockdown in most countries.

~~~
vinay427
Ha, thanks for clarifying! I wasn't sure and perhaps should have taken it more
lightly, but then I couldn't have attempted to make a point. :)

------
deathgrips
Lawyer up.

~~~
gbil
that was my initial reaction, like "ok this would not stand at any court".
then I realized that it probably affects employees who live and are citizens
of Qatar or similar nations in which 1. I have no idea about their legal
system 2. and the only idea I have from what I see in the news etc. about
worker rights etc. is not the best

~~~
ornornor
Isn’t it Qatar where you go to jail if you fail to pay your debts? Or maybe
it’s only Saudi Arabia, I can’t remember. And this was the reason why the city
was apparently littered with perfectly good but abandoned Ferrari and
lamborghini cars.

------
onetimemanytime
Training was done in 2013 apparently. Still hasn't paid it by working for 7
years? Makes no sense.

~~~
xwdv
He hasn’t worked, he’s been training and dicking around. Imagine just being
paid to learn about your job, without ever really producing any value, for the
past seven years.

~~~
Shivetya
well based on the comments on this story they should just work as a full time
poster on HN, not reading the story by automatically knee jerk responding how
vile the company is.

this story comes down to a contract dispute, the pilot signed an agreement as
part of being given training and if the company is guilty of anything it is
guilty of letting it go for this many years.

sometimes the little guy is at fault

------
raverbashing
Flyer forums have a lot of information on work conditions regarding airlines
around the world (usually the ones that attract expats).

From what I remember this company does not get the better reviews, even when
compared with other companies from the same region.

------
LatteLazy
This is pretty standard in many countries and industries.

Really, we need a law that turns it into a loan automatically with reasonable
terms at the end of employment. But other than that, this is no different to
any other student loan. Boomers killed free education, so now everyone pays
one way or another.

~~~
C1sc0cat
Actually not most countries strictly limit /regulate this sort behaviour and
if your made redundant I suspect that the employer would not be able to
recover anything.

Unfortunately employment practices in that part of the world are Horrific -
its just normally poor navvies employed on building sites get the worst of it
- see some of the coverage of the word cup construction in Quatar

~~~
LatteLazy
It's not illegal in the UK either I'm afraid. In fact, it's standard.

Im not saying this is nice or positive. Just that it's totally legal and
pretty standard.

I know because my first proper employer did NOT put this clause in my
contract. Then they tried to introduce it for me and others after adding it
for new employees. So I (we, there were 5 of us) actually sought legal advice.

The lawyer was surprised it wasn't in the original contract (and it's been in
all the employment contracts I've signed since). Since it wasn't there, they
couldn't enforce it or make us sign it. So we were lucky.

Its a hard thing to decide because the alternative is banning this sort of
program. Then the only people who get to be pilots are the ones with 130k to
spare...

~~~
chrisseaton
Is it not still the case that that almost all commercial pilots come from
people leaving the military or has that changed?

~~~
LatteLazy
I don't know to be honest. I don't think so, as there are really not many
military pilots compared to commercial? But I'm no expert.

Quickie edit...

Google says the RAF has 1830 pilots and the Navy about 200 more but the UK has
over 10,000 commercial pilots. So I guess at least half the commercial pilots
trained outside the military. So they're either self funding or getting these
employer funded loans?

