
Amtrak Train Was Over Speed Limit Before It Derailed - mhb
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/18/us/amtrak-derailment-washington.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&clickSource=story-heading&module=first-column-region&region=top-news&WT.nav=top-news
======
nanis

        train had been traveling more than 
        twice the speed limit before it 
        derailed, or at 80 miles per hour
        instead of the allowable 30 m.p.h.
    

The only thing a locomotive engineer has to do is to manage the speed of the
train[1]. Yet, whenever they kill innocent, helpless people, or cause immense
damage by failing to fulfill their sole responsibility, they go unpunished.
NTSB jumps in to make excuses.

"We need positive train control," everyone chants.

Why are the engineers needed again?

[1]: [https://jobs.amtrak.com/go/Locomotive-Engineer-
Jobs/400414/](https://jobs.amtrak.com/go/Locomotive-Engineer-Jobs/400414/)

~~~
mkempe
If we grant that they need PCT, and it is installed but not enabled on this
track, who is to blame?

~~~
nanis
First, I do not grant that they need PCT. It may be a nice to have, but an
engineer ought to be able to do the one job s/he is supposed to do.

I would understand if tolerances were so tight that an error of a few MPG
above the limit caused the disaster. In that case, I would grant that they
need more than PCT, and blame Amtrak. However, when someone is doing more than
80 MPH in a 30 MPH zone, s/he doesn't get to deflect blame to anything or
anybody else.

I am impressed by NTSB's willingness to hold harmless people who do that. If a
pilot were one-hundredth as reckless, s/he would not have a career.

There is also this:

    
    
        A train derailed July 2 southwest of Tacoma
        near Steilacoom, Wash., threatening to send
        several rail cars plunging into Puget Sound.
    

High speed was the cause, the engineer only got suspended, presumably because
no one died. I presume for every deadly accident there are at least five
accidents with no deaths, and 50 close calls due to speed.

Remember, the only job of the engineer is to regulate the speed of the train.

I am all for firing all the engineers if every time they kill people they will
use the PCT excuse.

[1]:
[https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2017/12/18/amtrak...](https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2017/12/18/amtraks-
cascades-rail-lines-saw-derailment-july/961382001/)

~~~
mkempe
You can blame the locomotive engineer as much as you feel to sate your anger
-- still, people have died and been injured.

Meanwhile, it is a fact that _fail-safe engineering controls would have
prevented the disaster._

And what if the locomotive engineer has a heart attack, leading to a deadly
accident? will you blame him?

~~~
nanis
My anger is directed towards the press and NTSB who rush to hold engineers
harmless in these accidents.

As for heart attacks, AFAIK this has been standard equipment for ages:

    
    
        Locomotives have a deadman pedal that must 
        be constantly pressed and periodically 
        released to ensure the driver is still there
        and awake.[1] 
    

So, when a train is traveling at almost three times the appropriate speed, it
is being done on purpose.

My argument is simple: If engineers will not be held to responsible when
people die because of a speeding train, then what's the point of having an
engineer?

[1]: [https://www.quora.com/What-if-the-train-driver-gets-a-
heart-...](https://www.quora.com/What-if-the-train-driver-gets-a-heart-attack-
while-driving-a-train)

~~~
nanis
It turns out an "alerter" is required equipment[1]:

    
    
        on or after November 8, 1999 a working alerter
        or deadman control shall be provided in the
        controlling locomotive of each passenger train
        operating in other than cab signal[2], automatic train[3]
        control, or automatic train stop[4] territory.
    

[1]:
[https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/49/238.237](https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/49/238.237)

[2]:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cab_signalling#Cab_signalling_...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cab_signalling#Cab_signalling_systems_in_the_United_States)

[3]:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automatic_train_control#United...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automatic_train_control#United_States)

[4]:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automatic_train_stop#United_St...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automatic_train_stop#United_States)

------
mkempe
Going 80 mph in a 30-mph-limited curve is the immediate cause of the disaster.

Apparently positive train control (PTC) was installed for that track, and
would have prevented the disaster -- but it was _not enabled._ That gets us
one step closer to a root cause.

~~~
mkempe
Let's dig further into the root causes.

WSJ: "An anti-crash system for trains designed to thwart serious accidents of
human error, such as derailments from over-speeding, wasn't activated,
according to an Amtrak spokeswoman. The deadline to install such systems,
known as positive train control [PCT], is December 2018." [1]

PCT [2] was mandated by Congress in October 2008. It was required to be
deployed and activated by 2015; however in October 2015 the deadline was
pushed another three years, to December 2018. [3]

Meanwhile, some form of train protection system has been operational in Europe
for over one hundred years, and automated train control has been deployed in
Japan since the 60s. [4]

[1] [https://www.wsj.com/articles/amtrak-train-derails-near-
seatt...](https://www.wsj.com/articles/amtrak-train-derails-near-
seattle-1513616460)

[2]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Positive_train_control](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Positive_train_control)

[3] [https://www.politico.com/story/2015/10/congress-approves-
rai...](https://www.politico.com/story/2015/10/congress-approves-railroad-
safety-delay-215260)

[4]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automatic_train_control#Japan](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automatic_train_control#Japan)

~~~
nanis
If you drive more than 80 MPH in a 30 MPH zone, you don't get to blame anyone
or anything else.

~~~
mkempe
Regardless of how much an individual is to blame or not, fail-safe controls
are a proper part of engineering practice, for two fundamental reasons:
unknown unknowns, and human fallibility.

~~~
nanis
The root cause is an engineer who drives the train at almost three times the
speed limit --- not lack of PTC. The answer is to hold engineers accountable
when they recklessly kill people.

Do you think these same engineers who flaunt speed limits now will be more or
less likely to do dangerous things when there PTC? Does having PTC mean
absolutely no chance of an accident when an engineer behaves recklessly?

------
chmaynard
This looks like a carbon copy of the 2015 derailment in Philadelphia. I'm not
sure if Amtrak is competent to operate a high-speed rail service safely
anywhere in the USA.

~~~
smn1234
despicable. If the engineers are incompetent, is it time technology displace
them entirely?

