
Windows 8 & Metro with Mouse and Keyboard - Super User Blog - ivoflipse
http://blog.superuser.com/2012/03/09/win8-metro-review/
======
thought_alarm
Metro is quite impressive as a tablet UI. Frankly, I think it's the only
legitimate alternative to iPad. But on a mouse-driven desktop it's at best
uncompelling, and at worst baffling and frustrating.

There's a risk Microsoft could pull another Vista, where an overwhelmingly
negative public perception of Metro on the desktop overshadows some otherwise
good features.

The other risk is that if they insist on coupling ARM Metro releases with
Desktop Windows releases it may prevent them from moving as fast as they'll
need to effectively compete with iOS. Development speed has been a problem for
Microsoft these last 10 years or so.

~~~
bp_
Here's the thing though: it _surprisingly_ also works with mouse and keyboard!
You do lose some display density, mind you, but the upshot in size allocated
more than makes up for it.

~~~
nextparadigms
Works and works well are 2 different things. Usually you need a different UI
that is optimized for the different form factor/device type, otherwise you
might end up with an UI that works very well only on a certain type of device,
and one that is mediocre at best on another type of device, because they are
used differently, and that UI is forcing you to use it in a different way than
you should.

Also it's not just the Metro UI itself and how it works with the mouse that
you have to deal with. You also have to deal with switching between what most
people will see as 2 separate OS's. I predict a lot of people will be
frustrated with this.

~~~
bicknergseng
I don't know that your first point is necessarily the case, though. I would
argue that Metro works well on both small screen touch interfaces and larger
screen point and click interfaces. The Metro buttons or boxes or whatever are
actually very click friendly, and I think keyboard/touchpad/camera/mouse
gestures will make it extremely usable. I might go as far to say that the
Metro interface seems to transcend interaction type.

I do understand the 2 OS's concern. I do imagine that after a few years and
maybe another iteration or two, people will move on from the need for the
traditional windows desktop experience and appreciate the same look and feel
across phone, tablet, laptop, and desktop. People will be initially
frustrated, but even Facebook can't roll out a minor redesign without millions
of people freaking out like FB stabbed them in the back.

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JS_startup
I'm still baffled as to why Windows 8 is not a dedicated tablet OS. I think it
would be a dream to use on a touch device and commend Microsoft for the Metro
design, but they had to screw it up by shoehorning it onto the desktop too.

I've given Windows 8 an honest try on my dual monitor setup and it just isn't
happening. Metro is out of place, consumes 100% screen real estate (meaning
fast context switching between windows or monitoring multiple windows is
impossible) and is constantly frustrating with its hidden controls and
undiscoverable features.

The fact that they had to _include Windows 7 in Windows 8_ is proof enough
that Metro is not suitable for the desktop. Windows 8 feels like a bizarre
mashup OS that has no place on the desktop.

~~~
tjoff
Metro isn't even supposed to be used on a workstation. It is as simple as
that. Of course "windows 7" is better for real work on a desktop, noone will
ever claim otherwise (for other than marketing purposes or for bashing windows
8).

So I don't know what your beef is, just don't use Metro for stuff it isn't
good for.

And use it for what it is good for, on your laptop in "tablet-mode" for
instance. Don't use it on your workstation, that's just insane.

~~~
JS_startup
The fact is that it _is_ on workstations, I'm simply judging what Microsoft
has put before me. Telling me to ignore Metro if I don't like it is like
selling me a muffin filled with chunks of pickle and suggesting I eat around
them.

I would assume if Microsoft didn't intend for Metro to be used on the desktop
then there would be no Windows 8 for PCs and it would be a dedicated tablet OS
(like I suggested).

~~~
tjoff
_Media Center_ is in your windows 7, do you use it on your workstation?

An OS is full of stuff you never use and, unlike a muffin filled with chunks
of pickle, not using the stuff you don't want is often as easy as breathing
air.

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tikhonj
I think the comparison with Grub is a little unfair--if you look at a distro
like OpenSUSE[1], the grub screen actually looks very good. You still can't
use the mouse, but I would happily trade speed for that, especially since
using the keyboard to select the right system is easier and faster anyhow.

[1]: <http://inst.eecs.berkeley.edu/~tikhon/openSUSE-grub.jpg>

That said, I'm really happy that people are moving towards prettier interfaces
everywhere. Why don't distros like Ubunutu or Fedora do the same?

~~~
bp_
Actually that's a comparison I meant Grub to win.

To reiterate and clarify: if the price to have all the bells and whistles of
the Win8 bootloader is to have it take as much time to load as _the entire
damn operative system you're loading in the first place_ I'll prefer the very
basic and functional interface of Grub immediately.

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apetrovic
My two cents after using Win8 for a week on a laptop:

\- Hot corners: fail. MS needs to extend hot zones. Finding the exact point
with the touchpad is sometimes tricky. I can imagine the horror on
multimonitor configuration.

\- I actually like the start screen. It's clean, and it responds to typing
even faster than Win7 start button. Two minor problems: 1) you need to clean
up icons after every installation and 2) it doesn't shows _everything_ when
I'm typing - I need to explicitly select "settings" after I type "mouse", for
example (it's tab - down - enter, not a big deal, but still). Windows 7 start
screen displays all find results at once.

\- Keyboard is your friend: Win + c for charms, Win + q for programs search,
Win + w for settings search. Learn these three shortcuts and you'll have less
angry fist shaking.

\- Metro: I really hope that the next year will bring us laptops with touch
screens. Until then, metro applications aren't very useful when you have only
mouse and keyboard.

The rest is, more or less, the same as in Windows 7.

~~~
listic
Laptops with touch screens FTW! I wonder what the whole computer industry is
waiting for? Are they again waiting for Apple to come and do and make what
everyone else should have done long time ago instead?

~~~
moheeb
They have laptops with touchscreens. You can stop waiting for Apple to do
what's already been done.

The Dell Inspiron Duo is one such machine. It came out in 2010.

~~~
protomyth
Given previous comments, I am pretty sure we won't see an Apple laptop with a
touch screen.

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demetris
“If you haven’t been living under a rock for the last few months, you probably
know all of the following:”

Whenever I see articles starting in this manner, I suppose that:

1\. The writer does not know how to write; or

2\. The writer is so far immersed in their topic that they have lost sight of
what is important and relevant to the rest of the population.

In either case, I stop reading.

Am I wrong? (Genuine question, not rhetorical!)

~~~
bp_
I apologize for sounding condescending.

However... the blog is for superuser.com, this is hacker news and I'd say the
audience probably does know that Windows 8 and Metro do, indeed, exist :)

~~~
rbanffy
Maybe, but a lot of us never touched Windows Vista, 7 or 8 and a lot of those
really don't care about desktop OSs. You must also be aware that there are
people who never used Windows. Ever.

Also, "super user" is a term normally associated with Unix systems. It's odd
to expect people to associate it with Windows.

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simonTate2
We are "stuck" in 2001.

Since the ServicePack2-update XP has been doing what an OS is supposed to do:
doing its job and being invisible at it.

We skipped all the Windows versions since XP and we think we are going to like
Windows 8 ;)

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sriramk
My issue with the active corners is that they are impossible to use with
multiple monitors. Fitt's Law actively works against it; instead of being able
to slam your mouse, you have to gingerly move it to the right spot.

~~~
tikhonj
On KDE, the corners just move to the most extreme screen. So any action set to
a left corner will work from that corner of the left screen, while any actions
set to a right corner will work from that corner on the right screen. This
still isn't perfect, but works fairly well in practice. I'm not sure it's
directly applicable to Windows 8 because I haven't tried it yet, but it's
something to think about.

~~~
sriramk
Don't know about KDE but I have the same problem with Unity. I wound up
physically moving my monitors around because Unity really, really likes to be
on the extreme left.

~~~
tikhonj
I have had no issues with having my main monitor to the left or to the right.
I have a laptop and at home my external monitor is to the right while at work
it's to the left; KDE handles either version perfectly. The "hot" corners move
to the extremes, as appropriate, and everything else works well too. In fact,
over all, KDE has been the best system for multiple monitors I've used
(choosing from several versions of Windows, OS X, Unity and Gnome 2).

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missing_cipher
The only thing that is annoying me with Windows 8 so far are the contextual
menus where you need to move your mouse to the bottom right-hand side. The
delay is too long and it makes the experience less fluid IMO.

I'm liking the Start Metro screen and getting used to the dynamic tiles.

~~~
recoiledsnake
A shortcut you can use is Windows key + C.

More here:

[http://arstechnica.com/microsoft/news/2012/02/getting-
starte...](http://arstechnica.com/microsoft/news/2012/02/getting-started-with-
the-windows-8-consumer-preview.ars/2)

[http://www.kotaku.com.au/2012/03/windows-8-tricks-tips-
and-s...](http://www.kotaku.com.au/2012/03/windows-8-tricks-tips-and-
shortcuts-to-make-the-preview-process-less-painful/)

Looking at the comments, it's like people can't even spend 5 or 10 mins
getting to know a new UI in a redesigned OS. And then some complain about the
dumbification of everything. Maybe they're wrong and everything must be dumbed
down to the lowest common denominator in order to be successful.

~~~
joe_the_user
But, But, ...

Is it not at least a tad reasonable for people to be a bit upset about MS
strong-arming a fix into the _not-broken_ UI they've been using for a while
now?

Why should Bob at home with his five year old Dell care that this MS' salvo in
the Tablet Wars? Why?

~~~
davux
Bob at home is probably not upgrading his 5-year-old computer to Windows 8.
Upgrades are something like 10% of all Windows PC's. It's common in the tech
world to upgrade, but for most people, a PC is a PC and it comes with software
for its lifetime.

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conradfr
I like how they are still doing Passport, it is just renamed each year or so.

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makecheck
Something about that start screen feels like you're watching every TV in the
TV store at the same time, with about the same inability to focus. Also seems
ripe for abuse by 3rd parties, but we'll see.

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cjsmith9
Very interesting article. I am interested to see how the use of mouse and
keyboard evolves as more OSs/UIs move towards a touch based interface.

~~~
bp_
There's very little in Windows 8 that requires multiple touch input - pretty
much the only thing touch input can do and the mouse can't. This is what's
ultimately allowing Win8 to keep mouse keyboard and touch on the same level.

Compare with Apple and some of the iOS gestures such as four-finger (!)
swipes...

(I wrote the article)

~~~
tomflack
> Compare with Apple and some of the iOS gestures such as four-finger (!)
> swipes...

Are you trying to imply the four-finger swipes in iOS are bad?

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homer-o
'' On the left, GRUB 2. On the right, the bootloader found in Windows 8 CP.
I've got no doubts on which one I'd rather use. ''

\--me either.

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drivebyacct2
There is a certain amount of irony that Windows 8 works quite well is most
(all?) virtualization software except Microsoft's VirtualPC.

Also, is anyone else feeling that they love Windows 8 on a tablet but are
constantly frustrated trying to use it on a desktop? One of my first
experiences that kind of sums of my experience was clicking on a 2-second mp3
(I wanted that gorgeous notification tone), only to find myself waiting 3
seconds to it to switch from Desktop/Explorer to Metro/Music Player, play my
2-second clip and then leaving me staring at a rather dumb, blank looking
Metro media player. (It would be helped if there was a metro version of
explorer, but still, I feel very limited without many windows open and expose
mode, and of course windows 8 hasn't really improved the command prompt.)

~~~
gph
It doesn't work on the free VMWare software, though it does work on VMWare
Workstation 8 (not free).

Not that that disqualifies your statement in anyway, it is rather funny that
it doesn't work on their own VM software. It even works on Oracle's open
source VirtualBox.

~~~
forcer
Not true. It works on VMWare Player which is free

