
Coinbase Debit Card - agrinman
https://www.coinbase.com/card
======
ilaksh
In a way this is great but in another way it's the worst. It's nice to have a
practical way to use Bitcoin (or other cryptocurrencies) to buy things in the
vast majority of places that don't take Bitcoin.

On the other hand, I have always considered one of the main concepts with
cryptocurrency to be the potential ability to avoid third parties taking a cut
of all of your digital transactions. This turns it into just another way for
big companies like Visa or Coinbase to get rich just on the basis that people
need to exchange money.

The basic idea for me with cryptocurrency is that since it's our money we
shouldn't have to give control of it to third parties just for basic usage. We
have math, the internet, and plenty of computers. We should not need Visa or
Coinbase.

~~~
m-i-l
I don't see what is in this for the consumer either. If you are not already a
holder, why would anyone want the hassle of becoming one, just to pay high
fees for each and every transaction (e.g. the 2.49% "crypto liquidation fee"
for this card) when you can get a cashback card (e.g. mine gives me up to 10%
cashback on some purchases), and why would you not want your assets working
for you until as late as possible (not until point of purchase as in this case
but up to 5-6 weeks later when a conventional monthly credit card bill become
due)? And if you are a crypto holder, why would you want to transfer custody
of your crypto to Coinbase and make your tax return a nightmare (i.e. with a
potentially large number of small disposals)?

~~~
basch
what card do you have and what do you get 10% back on?

~~~
imustbeevil
Not him but the Discover It card gives rotating 5% cash back and a cashback
match for the first year, making it 10%.

~~~
bogomipz
Wow, that's a pretty good deal. How widely accepted is Discover these days?
I'm curious what has your experience been? Cheers.

~~~
notyourwork
I’ve had this card for a few years, I rarely encounter someone who doesn’t
accept it. (United States) I carry this card, the citi cash back master card
and the amazon prime visa. Figure at least one works and I prioritize best
reward.

Also the categories they offer 5% on (amazon, gas, restaurants, grocery) are
likely to take discover.

~~~
bogomipz
Thanks for the feedback, good to know. Interesting you mentioned the Amazon
card. I would actually be curious to hear your experience with that Amazon
card. In looking at the reviews on their site, nearly the entire last two
years reviews are pretty abysmal review(one star.) Cheers.

~~~
LeftTurnSignal
I have had an amazon card for a few years now.

I can't say anything bad or good about it. I get 1% back (or points to spend
at amazon) for any purchases, 2% points back for gas, and 3% points when I use
it at amazon.

There's been more than several times where it looked like it never applied the
points to my account though. I always paid it off in full every month, and
sometimes it works sometimes not. When I lived on the road and used it for
hotels, while getting reimbursed from them, I was able to rack up $1500 worth
of points.

Other than that, it's been fine. Looking around for something a bit better
though.

~~~
basch
Costco card is better for gas, restaurants, and travel. Double cash card is 2%
on everything. Both are Citi, so its one app and account, just have to
remember if youre buying gas, restaurant, travel or costco.

------
kbody
This is one of the worst crypto-debit cards I've seen. Coinbase's card has a
"Crypto Liquidation Fee": 2.49% of transaction. (Even Gemini, the most
expensive cryptoexchange has 1% exchange fees, while the median is probably
around 0.2%)

You are better off selling manually on an exchange (0.1-0.25% fees) and
transferring to a sane bank with debit cards and minimal fees like N26(EU) or
Charles Schwab(US).

Have a fiat buffer, but control your holdings and don't get milk by fee-
vampires like Coinbase.

~~~
briatx
Or you could skip a step and just use a regular credit card with cash rewards
and receive 1-2% of transaction amounts cash back.

I'm not sure why people want to make it harder (and more expensive) than
necessary.

~~~
bufferoverflow
But then you're missing the whole point - storing your money in a deflationary
currency.

I moved 95% of my savings into cryptocurrencies years ago, and it's been
orders of magnitude better than the silly 1-2%.

~~~
BoorishBears
And some people moved their savings into cryptocurrencies half a year ago and
it's been orders of magnitude worse than the silly 1-2%.

Kind of like advising putting your savings in naked options plays because it
worked for you that one time.

~~~
bufferoverflow
The difference is, inflationary currency is guaranteed to lose value over long
term. One-year fluctuations are not very important to me, this is short-term
thinking.

That's why even now I buy as much cryptocurrency as I can.

~~~
dragonwriter
> The difference is, inflationary currency is guaranteed to lose value over
> long term. One-year fluctuations are not very important to me, this is
> short-term thinking.

The whole point of currency is short-term; it's the virtual particle of the
economy intended to lubricate the flow of useful goods without incentivizing
hoarding of itself over investment in productive assets.

~~~
bufferoverflow
> The whole point of currency is short-term

Not if you're saving for retirement or your kid's college fund.

We never had any deflationary currencies till recently. Now we have a choice.

If you want to quickly spend your money, go right ahead, nobody is stopping
you.

I prefer to spend for what I need, and save the rest, and it's been working
great so far. That's what most financial advisers advise anyway - live within
your means, and create a financial cushion.

~~~
dragonwriter
> > The whole point of currency is short-term

> Not if you're saving for retirement or your kid's college fund.

No, even there: it's to be the short-term stable thing you trade other stuff
(for most people, labor) for and then use to buy the productive asset you
invest for those purpose. It's an important part of the process, just not the
final vehicle.

It is very much not for direct use as the final vehicle for those purposes
itself, because the attributes which make something good as a long-term
investment are very different than those that make it good as currency.
(Savings accounts, which still are only good for fairly short-term reserves
and not the purposes you lay out, aren't the same as raw currency.)

------
londons_explore
The general pattern here is "Keep the balance of your current account
'invested' in bitcoin until the moment you spend it".

Can't that model be expanded to include any tradable commodity? Why can't I
get a 'Gold debit card' or a 'Nasdaq Debit card'?

Would there be a market for this?

~~~
chrisco255
Well stocks can't be sold in tiny tiny fractions. If you have 5 shares of
Amazon and 6 shares of Apple...which stock does your debit card provider sell
to cover your latte? Also stock markets don't operate 24/7, crypto does.

Gold is hard to sell in tiny fractions as well.

~~~
simias
Beyond the point made by siblings comments about selling fractions of stocks I
also want to point out that selling small amount of bitcoins or ethereum on-
chain is also prohibitively expensive. I'm sure those debit card transactions
won't be directly settled on the actual cryptocurrency, they'll just keep a
balance internally and make big transactions on the blockchain if they need to
balance their accounts. You know, like a bank.

~~~
chrisco255
ETH transactions avg like 10 cents:
[https://bitinfocharts.com/comparison/ethereum-
transactionfee](https://bitinfocharts.com/comparison/ethereum-transactionfee)

But also, Coinbase owns an exchange, so they don't have to commit every
transaction to the blockchain, so it's peanuts for them.

~~~
simias
> ETH transactions avg like 10 cents:
> [https://bitinfocharts.com/comparison/ethereum-
> transactionfee](https://bitinfocharts.com/comparison/ethereum-
> transactionfee)

That's still significant for small transactions. Beyond that, will it scale
well enough to cost only 10 cents if it becomes the new Visa/Mastercard? The
transaction rate of BTC/ETH is still almost negligible when compared to
mainstream payment processors.

>Coinbase owns an exchange, so they don't have to commit every transaction to
the blockchain, so it's peanuts for them.

My point exactly. It's not a Bitcoin card, it's a Coinbase card, the
cryptocurrency aspect is tangential. This is not cryptocurrency going
mainstream, it's the mainstream taking over cryptocurrency because it's just
so much more convenient to have a Visa card than a Bitcoin or Eth wallet.

~~~
chrisco255
At 10 cents it is cheaper than debit card transactions. And credit card
processors charge 2-3% on average for transactions... maybe as low as 1.5%.

Visa is more convenient today but it took decades for Visa to get to the scale
and scope and convenience it has today. If people start parking more money in
crypto and using crypto credit cards it's only a matter of time before
merchants start accepting direct payment from coinbase wallets. At that point,
Coinbase can bypass Visa and charge a fraction of the fee for facilitating the
trade from USD to BTC.

------
berberous
This seems like a nightmare if every purchase is a capital gain/loss that
needs to be scheduled for tax purposes.

~~~
hanniabu
Yup, the legislature is lagging, but this is typical for when there's paradigm
shifts.

~~~
rtpg
What paradigm shift? It's capital gains. _Maybe_ there would be an argument
that this is a currency conversion but in its current state BTC is totally a
speculative financial instrument

The inverse (_not_ paying capital gains on this) would be very weird

~~~
beagle3
The turkish lira has been at least as volatile as BTC in the last couple of
years; Bitcoin is about as much a currency.

~~~
oarsinsync
Except the Turkish Lira is legally recognised as currency, and Bitcoin is
legally recognised as a commodity (and thus, subject to CGT)

~~~
beagle3
Yes. I read GP’s “current state” to mean volatility, but it could mean legal
state.

------
seattle_spring
So I can take my currency, trade it for crypto, then spend it at stores?

Do you know what would be even more crazy and innovative? If I could skip the
middle part and just exchange my dollars directly for goods and services!

~~~
sucrose
You can, but your sarcasm seems to assume people are just simply converting
dollars into bitcoin just to use this debit card. This feature may not be for
you, but for those who trade or accept it as a payment for their
goods/services. It essentially eliminates the process of selling the bitcoin
and/or waiting a few days to transfer the funds to your bank.

~~~
mathgeek
The fees listed in the FAQ
([https://support.coinbase.com/customer/portal/articles/296991...](https://support.coinbase.com/customer/portal/articles/2969910-coinbase-
card-faq)) are important when considering the trade-off between convenience
and cost.

You're paying 2.49% on every transaction, and the fee rises for certain kinds
and volumes of transactions.

------
djpilot
I've been piloting this program and I've got to say it's been a convenient way
to pay without draining my real bank account. IMO this is a killer product
compared to everything else I've experienced with Bitcoin and cryptocurrency
this far, it really bridges the gap.

Heck, I even used it to pay my back taxes to the IRS.

~~~
simias
>IMO this is a killer product compared to everything else I've experienced
with Bitcoin and cryptocurrency this far, it really bridges the gap.

So it solves the usability problem of cryptocurrency by... working like a
regular bank, more or less? And mostly getting rid of the actual blockchain to
use off-chain transactions while having the convenience of the centralized
Visa system?

This might be the killer product for cryptocurrency, but in a more literal
sense. It shows that the market seems to inexorably converge towards the good
old solutions, and the cryptocurrency ecosystem slowly (and rather
inefficiently) reinvents the modern banking system.

I wonder when Coinbase will start doing fractional-reserve banking with they
off-chain "cryptocurrency" accounts.

This is no more "cryptocurrency technology" than if I set up a script to sell
some of my Bitcoins to replenish my bank account when its balance reaches a
certain value.

~~~
Geee
Cryptocurrency is both a monetary system and a payment system. You don't lose
all of the benefits of cryptocurrency if the payment layer is scaled up with
centralized solutions.

~~~
seppin
> You don't lose all of the benefits of cryptocurrency if the payment layer is
> scaled up with centralized solutions.

What are the benefits if you relay solely on existing payment networks for
transactions?

~~~
Geee
Well, a cryptocurrency monetary system is just code rather than a bunch of old
guys with nukes.

~~~
simias
It's a bunch of "hodler" whales who, if the currency is successful enough,
will become the next "old guys with nukes".

If most people use bitcoin off-chain then it means that it's the
cryptocurrency exchange cartel who gets to decide what is and isn't bitcoin.
Who cares if the node in your basement disagrees if all the exchanges have
forked away and nobody can trade with you.

The whole "it's just code" shtick is really shortsighted. It's never only just
code, it's a complex consensus. Look at all the drama around segwit/bitcoin
cash for instance.

~~~
seppin
exactly, if it was "just code" it wouldn't be worth anything, and they'd be no
stakes.

------
jfk13
Seems like this would introduce an unwelcome element of pricing uncertainty
into every transaction. Instead of knowing at the point of purchase that my
latte will cost me $3.95, it's going to cost me some unknown amount of bitcoin
depending on the rate Coinbase happens to use at the moment it processes the
transaction.

I accept this kind of uncertainty when I use my existing card abroad (although
in some cases, the POS terminal offers to do the currency conversion up
front); but I don't much care for the idea of introducing such price
volatility into all my everyday purchases.

~~~
tim333
If you have Bitcoin you have price volatility, Visa card or not.

~~~
tantalor
Not if the thing you're buying is priced in bitcoin.

------
sdfsdfsdfsdf3
Isn't paysafecard the point-and-click-and-become-a-card-provider of the pay
card industry along with Wirecard? Used by loads of dodgy no credit check
providers, card providers going bust every other week, apparently its harder
to spin up an AWS EC2 instance than it is to become a card provider with these
jokers.

At a functional level - No 3DSecure support, unexplained failures, little
insight from the vendor into paysafe infrastructure. I'm very surprised
Coinbase launched on this mickey mouse platform. It's like launching a
clothing brand with cafepress.com as your product provider

Ill stick with Monzo thanks

~~~
thesimon
> No 3DSecure support

That should change within the next few weeks as PSD2 requires that.

~~~
tluyben2
Or an approved equally secure alternative: we for instance have dynamic cvv,
no 3dsecure needed.

------
dalbasal
The fact that this is being introduced _now_ , is kind of telling if this
crypto/bitcoin story this far.

High valuations has been a double edged sword. On one hand, it brought
attention, interest and such. OTOH, it sucked all the energy into
trading/speculation and all but forced the like of coinbase to specialise in
it, neglecting everything else.

I have to say, crypto has been (and still is) an interesting look into what
money is and how it might evolve. It seems that possibly inevitably, getting
paid for work and paying for goods and services is "naturally" an extreme
iceberg... The tiny piece of the whole that's visible. Below the surface is
most of the "ice," the enormous volume of currency trading and other high
finance uses.

------
zelly
The idea is to preferentially spend cryptocurrency over dollars. This only
works on the assumption that dollars are ``better money''[1] than
cryptocurrencies. People spend worse money before their good money. Coinbase
is making a bet that there will be a lot of people sitting on piles of
depreciating cryptocurrency that they don't mind liquidating. They're making a
very bearish bet, or maybe just hedging their business model to survive a
little longer.

[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gresham%27s_law](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gresham%27s_law)

~~~
dajohnson89
You're implying that the current bear market is permanent. Most
cryptocurrencies are deflationary in nature, so it's hard to accept the
premise that there's "piles of depreciating cryptocurrency" in general.

~~~
zelly
Yeah, I agree. I don't think this debit card is a good business idea. But
Coinbase thinks cryptocurrency will be in a bear market for much longer since
they thought this product would be a good play.

No one wants to spend their crypto. It's better money than dollars.

~~~
dajohnson89
It's worse money than dollars, at the moment. There's work being done to make
crypto better money, and efforts like this debit card are a step in that
direction.

People aren't spending their crypto because it isnt' as easy/economical to
use, and yeah it's more likely to retain/grow in value than a stack of cash.
And that's probably what you meant :-)

------
hellllllllooo
Bitcoin at this point is purely speculative and this is almost like hooking up
a debit card to my Robinhood account and selling stock to pay for it every
time I buy something.

Seems to completely work around the reasons why Bitcoin etc. were interesting
in the first place as a technology.

~~~
djpilot
"Seems to completely work around the reasons why Bitcoin etc. were interesting
in the first place as a technology."

I respectfully disagree. The original goal of Bitcoin was to create a new
financial system and instrument which ultimately enables people to pay for
things.

~~~
point78
*anonymously

~~~
djpilot
Pseudo-anonymous. Research it a bit if you aren't aware of the implications.

[https://www.buybitcoinworldwide.com/anonymity/](https://www.buybitcoinworldwide.com/anonymity/)

------
apo
Read the fine print, for example:

> Crypto Liquidation Fees: 2.49%

[https://support.coinbase.com/customer/portal/articles/296991...](https://support.coinbase.com/customer/portal/articles/2969910-coinbase-
card-faq)

~~~
seppin
Is that higher or lower than Visa ?

~~~
everfree
That's _on top_ of what Visa charges the merchant.

~~~
seppin
hot dang

------
dead_mall
This is great news! I've literally been living off my Bitpay debit card for
the past 2 years, they come in clutch as f, but only have 2 pairs (BTC &
BCHABC). But Coinbase has a variety coins, especially XLM & XRP which have
ridiculous fast sending speeds (like ~3min), and now finally, you can spend
them without the whole withdraw coin-to-fiat process.

Though, i'm curious about the fees/tax side, and I'm wondering if they will be
implementing some sort of rewards program in the future

~~~
foepys
> especially XLM & XRP which have ridiculous fast sending speeds (like ~3min),

And here I am with my "old tech" SEPA bank account and Instant Payments that
take 15 seconds max...

~~~
dead_mall
It's not about transaction speeds. It's about the whole point of
cryptocurrencies. Try sending fiat money to another country and see if that
takes 15 seconds

edit* also, checkout other services like Wirex, they're great

------
guessmyname
Apple Card [1] and now Coinbase Card [2] hmmm…

I have thought about this many times in the past: How are big companies able
to steal these ideas so fast?

Actually, “steal” may not be the correct word, but I don’t think this was a
coincidence. Knowing how secretive Apple is, I am surprised that Coinbase was
able to work on this project _(also in secret?)_ without them noticing. Or
maybe they noticed but didn’t care? Which is even more bizarre considering how
sensitive Apple lawyers are with their unreleased projects. There must be some
underground market of corporate secrets that I am not aware of because I
cannot explain how two companies can work in the same project more or less at
the same time without it being the product of a stolen idea.

I had the same train of thought just a few weeks ago when Google announced
project Stadia [3] and then Apple announced Arcade [4]. I know what you are
going to say, _“These two projects are very different”_ , well yes, they are,
but they seem to have the same ingredients: big-4 creates platform for games.
Maybe these are really simple coincidences, and I’m just paranoid.

[1] [https://www.apple.com/apple-card/](https://www.apple.com/apple-card/)

[2] [https://www.coinbase.com/card](https://www.coinbase.com/card)

[3] [https://stadia.dev/](https://stadia.dev/)

[4] [https://www.apple.com/apple-arcade/](https://www.apple.com/apple-arcade/)

~~~
Krasnol
Or...it's just no conspiracy at all because neither Apple not Coinbase
reinvented the wheel but put just another card into your wallet? It's not like
this is something ground breaking to do if you handle cash in the US.

~~~
arsenico
With Apple it is different due to the depth of integration with the ecosystem,
and also it is a credit card, not a debit card.

~~~
manigandham
Not really, it's not easy but it's pretty simple. It's money + politics to get
the connections to have a bank underwrite the cards. Apple went a little
further with the fancy app and physical card but all the foundations are
already available. You can see it yourself if you use any other major bank's
mobile apps and cards.

~~~
arsenico
Well, it is somewhat different still - this is real ecosystem work, and the
depth of integration into it is quite significant.

~~~
manigandham
Can you explain what you mean by Apple's ecosystem integration? What is it
that they do differently? As far as I can tell, the app has budgeting features
that are similar to what mint.com offered a decade ago.

~~~
arsenico
Payment categorisation, maps, etc are long available as services from
companies like Yodlee, for example. For the budgeting part, as well. What I
mean is that it will just feel natural to pay with the phone using the credit
card, which you don't really need to get from anyone else, but Apple
themselves.

~~~
manigandham
Apple Pay has been backed by whatever credit card you want for years now, this
isn't any different. The bank still has to approve you, it's not automatic. I
guess I just don't see what's so special about this other than the fancy app.

~~~
arsenico
Because it is not about going to the bank and getting your credit card, and
then linking it to the Wallet. I think it will feel different from the
experience perspective. For them that is the only way to get traction.

------
londons_explore
It seems this encourages users to keep all their money sitting in a coinbase
wallet... That doesn't seem great when coinbase gets hacked... What happened
to the advice of "don't leave your money in an exchange"

~~~
lawn
Coinbase is a pretty well established exchange. It's probably much safer than
storing it themselves for many non-technical people.

~~~
headsoup
Probably is a worrying word there...

------
dawhizkid
Isn't it a tax event every time you spend crypto?

I'm guessing that's a reason why something like this won't arrive in the U.S.
anytime soon...at least one blessed by U.S. regulators.

------
gregoryrueda
How is this different than the Coinbase Shift card? I had a shift card and the
fees on purchases made it prohibitively expensive so I stopped using it after
a few purchases.

~~~
Shank
Shift just shut down, apparently. So that’s at least one difference. From
their website:

> We hope you enjoyed using the Shift Card and truly thank you for your
> loyalty. We, unfortunately, will be retiring the program in April of this
> year. All Shift Cards will be officially deactivated on April 11, 2019.

------
wiggler00m
Backwards compatibility is a good thing for a technology with (a) potential to
dramatically improve an industry and (b) insufficient adoption.

For example: Square.

------
edpichler
Really cool! The barrier to me to adopt it is the high floating prices of
bitcoins. I already use it to do transactions overseas, to receive payments,
etc., but I never let bitcoins on my wallet for more than some hours.

A hedge strategy could help me on this, but this is more work. It's easy to
transform it into a more stable currency.

------
atarian
As some people have already mentioned, spending crypto in the US is classified
as a taxable event. So I think it's questionable to market crypto as a
replacement for traditional spending when you have additional overhead that is
not being accounted for and would definitely come up in the event of an audit.

------
platz
To even get bitcoins you have to pay a 1.5% fee.

Credit cards don't even charge you that

~~~
mathgeek
A fair point, but remember that credit cards leverage their fees towards
outstanding credit (and incentivize you to access that credit). This is more
like a debit card, where the fees are leveraged on transactions where you
access your own holdings (incentivizing you to leave your funds in the
account).

------
formalsystem
How does this work exactly? I notice it's a partnership with Visa, are
payments converted to dollars or is the payment in Bitcoin directly?

Also does Visa or Coinbase then make a server side log of all the
transactions?

~~~
robjan
It's a partnership with a stored value card provider (Paysafe Financial
Services Limited). Coinbase just liquidates your Bitcoin and then settles in
fiat.

------
jeletonskelly
So, Coinbase's market makers (possibly itself) are seemingly providing the
liquidity for this product. How do they avoid over-exposure if this debit card
is successful?

------
LAMike
Not available in the US?

~~~
rihegher
Nope « At this time, only residents of the United Kingdom may apply for a
Coinbase Card. We’re working on expanding the offer to additional European
markets. »

------
Nanocurrency
The greatest thing about it is that it will be like the ThenX card had been,
while it worked. Cryptocurrency will be converted in the last moment, when the
spending is made.

------
xrd
When I go to Google Play to install the app it says "not available in your
country." I'm in the US.

Isn't Coinbase only for US citizens?

Who is the target of this card?

------
ccjnsn
How does capital gains tax work with this?

For example you've been sitting on a pile of bitcoin with massive gains and
spend it straight out of the account.

~~~
tim333
It depends on the regulations where you are and the tax situation you are in.
In the UK the first £12k gains are free.

The US is kind of complicated with different rates for short term and long
term gains.

I declared UK crypto gains recently. It can get complicated if you try to
follow all the instructions properly.

------
amingilani
6.9 MB on the play store? I'm impressed. Although I can't really what's going
on in there because of Geo restrictions.

------
anthony_barker
There has been cards doing this for at least 5 years.. Revolut allows you to
trade at midpoint with no fees.

Not innovative.

~~~
willio58
I’ve never heard of revolut or midpoint. So I think that’s the point, for
something to really be “innovative”, it also needs significant reach.

------
ancymon
So, it basicaly makes easier to avoid taxes? For example you earn in bitcoin
and you now have easy way to spend it. That's probably not applicable for US
citzens, but would IRSes around the world be able to get your data from
coinbase?

~~~
bpicolo
> but would IRSes around the world be able to get your data from coinbase?

Yes, they already do.
([https://support.coinbase.com/customer/portal/articles/292444...](https://support.coinbase.com/customer/portal/articles/2924446-irs-
notification))

~~~
ancymon
I can't find that it is about forign IRSes, can you point me to more specific
place?

~~~
bpicolo
The wouldn't typically ask directly unless they expected people are committing
tax fraud, but you can bet that any country Coinbase is operating in can ask
them similar. They have to abide by a wide range of financial regulations. It
would be more typical for such a thing to come up during the audit for a
singular customer

------
mtw
How much is this ?

------
NoblePublius
It’s like a checking account except your balance is subject to the whims of
the Chinese mafia. I’ll take two!

~~~
seppin
I love these comments

