

Ask HN: No money, can't find any jobs, what am I doing wrong? - endoftheropes

HN.<p>I am a semi avid reader, a programmer, and a college student in the midwest USA (Ohio).<p>I am in a bind.<p>I consider myself a frontend programmer, Html, Css, Javascript (mainly) and I primarily work on web apps. I use node.js for the backend, but I also know php (started with php web dev years ago). I am not a bad programmer, but I could be better (can't we all?).<p>For the past 2 months I have been living off of savings and petty cash primarily. I cannot find a job. With my location, I am pretty much confined to doing remote freelance work, which limits the positions substantially. However it is my understanding that front end developers are in fairly high demand. I must be doing something wrong. I know that I am a fairly good programmer, so I do not think my skill set is the limiting factor.<p>I don't have a github, I always just work on my own projects that I host, never spent the time (or really wanted to) put the code on github. I know a lot of employers look for that however.<p>I have a online portfolio/resume (past work, skills, about me, etc) all on one page.<p>I mainly don't know where to find jobs. I'm mainly limited to the Who is hiring threads on HN and craigslist job posts, neither of which have been very fruitful.<p>I'm going to need to get a non web dev job soon, which I'd rather not do. Is there something I'm doing wrong? Should I learn RoR or Python? Any thoughts?<p>Thanks
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karolist
Well, to be cold-called/invited to a job interview you have to be

a) known b) pretty damn good, but that's related to a.

Don't expect employers to flock to your door, seek them out pro-actively! All
my previous jobs were found with me looking up places I'd like to work for,
emailing my super polished CV to them, getting invited and passing their
screens. I don't know about "a lot of employers looking for github", maybe the
places you're targeting?

My experience - most of them don't even know what git or github is, yes, even
in the web development space.

My suggestion is this: do it like most people - find places around your area
you'd like to work for, craft a CV targeted around that job's requirements,
but don't lie. Think of it as CV SEO or whatever. Email - wait for answers.

It's very important to have a unique CV for every employer you're targeting.

Assuming you know your stuff, you'll have no problems passing the screens.

Oh, and about learning RoR or Python - learn that only if you want to
yourself, because there's still many many places offering PHP work, it's not
as hip as some people would like you to think, but not as bad either.

~~~
impendia
I would add something that I guess is implicit in karolist's answer: I would
not worry much about whether or not they are advertising a job. If they are,
great! Apply for it. But if they aren't, poke around the company, find
someone's e-mail address, and send them a CV and a letter which tells them
that _you understand specifically what they do and are interested in their
company_.

95% chance, they delete your e-mail without taking it seriously. But that's
okay. (.95)^100 is small.

------
apsurd
Don't write a cv/resume.

This advice applies to any person that is effectively "unknown" in the tech
scene - that's 99% of us. A cv is useless for conveying who you are and what
value you bring _relative_ to all the other thousands of people out there. A
paper is a paper is a paper.

Therefore the first crucial piece for us unknown developers is to have Open
Source projects on GitHub.

Companies don't want to see a GitHub profile because they love GitHub. GitHub
profiles show _exactly_ what you can do, and provide proof that you've
actually done it, as well as the how, why, when, and where.

You have to understand how powerful and uncommon it is to have working
software out in the wild that a) works, and b) is Open Source for everyone to
see.

a) is important because all employers need a person who can ship ; a doer. b)
is important because it is proof of your knowledge and skillset. This includes
design decisions, documentation, git commits, api documentation, design
patterns, proper testing, and so on.

You are doing yourself a disservice by not having projects on GitHub, not
because it's trendy, but because it is the only credible, fool-proof, tangible
way to measure someone's coding ability _at a glance_. By the time anyone
invests time to have you answer programming questions or code on a white-
board, they are _already_ interested in you, so this is about getting them
interested in the first place.

"Hello I am Salvatore Sanfilippo, I created <https://github.com/antirez/redis>

You see how completely badass that is?

The next crucial piece for we unknown developers is _honesty_.

I think a good software developer gets stuff done. If they don't know how to
do something they can learn on their own. They are motivated to keep learning
and keep doing a better job because they are passionate about their work.

I think employers agree with me and they look for this kind of candidate.

Therefore if you love programming, just be honest. If you don't know some
things, just be honest. If you really want to work for _____, just be honest.
If you think you are not good enough for a particular position but you
_really_ want that position, just be honest.

I think having an _honest_ conversation with a tech-lead at any company will
go millions of miles beyond submitting some piece of paper to HR.

Just be honest.

Are you looking for a job doing javascript? Think you are good at jquery but
want to get into more complex stuff like backbone?

The problem is they don't know you and you don't know them. So offer to
intern, offer to come on board for 2 months _to prove yourself_.

Software is a great field to be in, because its largely merit based. So use
that to your advantage.

But you can't prove yourself through words.

You have to show it and do it.

best of luck.

~~~
Donito
While I agree that having a github is great for a number of reasons, I do not
think it's a Resume/CV "replacement" when looking for "any" software job.

> A cv is useless for conveying who you are and what value you bring relative
> to all the other thousands of people out there. A paper is a paper is a
> paper.

True. Therefore if you're looking at integrating a Startup, it is great
because educated developers might have the time to meticulously review every
application. But when you're looking for a job, any job, especially in a more
established company it doesn't work the same way.

Of course, if your github projects are "famous", say you created Redis (the 1%
case), then it can act as a CV replacement. A replacement NOT because someone
will dig into the actual code, but rather because they'll know you created
this known thing called Redis (or they'll read about it on Wikipedia and
realize it's a big deal)... so it's in a way your CV. But if your github only
has random projects (which is the 99% case), it's actually quite hard and time
consuming to jump into the code to evaluate an applicant's skill.

To better explain my point that a resume/CV actually makes the difference,
let's look at it the other way around. Imagine you are a recruiter, you have
100 applicants, and you need to filter the list because you can't interview
all 100 of them. Are you going to look into at everyone's repo?! No. Instead
you will give a quick look at the CV to identify 'potentially' good
candidates. Having a link to your github on the CV is a big plus at this point
(independently of what it has), because it's different from most of the other
ones (aka: you're special, more passionate about technology). Once the
filtering is done, only then will you usually have the occasion to be heard
through an interview. And it's at this point that you actually need to show
you're real value.

Now I do agree that this system is flawed, but it's the game. If you want to
maximize your chances, which you most likely do considering you have no
options, you should play the game and get a solid cv/resume. Having said that,
if you lack experience or content for your CV, personal projects (on github)
are a good filler ;)

~~~
apsurd
Good points all around. To respond to your main points:

"When looking for a job, any job..." Ideally we should find the job that we
are most motivated to do our best work at. It's a win for both parties. So I
would try to avoid "finding any job" if it all possible. Granted it's easier
said than done but that's the whole point. You want a place that you can grow
at and that you don't dread going to work everyday. I think that's super
important for a healthy life. So we should definitely aspire to be picky where
we do our work. Also specifically to the current tech industry ; we _can_ be
picky. There is a ton of money in a ton of different kinds of companies in
tech right now. Take advantage of it.

Secondly, regarding the concept of having a GitHub profile. I agree, the
simple fact of a GitHub profile existing is pretty meaningless. I do agree
that most profiles have bash profiles, incomplete projects, and a ton of
forks. Yup that is meaningless. I should state that when we talk about "having
a GitHub profile" I necessarily mean having completed projects that you've
created, from start to finish, and that actually run in the wild. A GitHub
profile is simply the most _relevant_ way to show of _these kinds of
projects_. Sure you can link to the website your code runs on but I'd argue
it's still better that you also Open Source the code so everyone can see your
design decisions. You're right in that people aren't going to take the time to
dig through your code, but what if the readme listed major stack components,
and majore design decisions? Isn't that better than linking to a consumer-
facing splashpage?

The key here as with anything, is that you market it correctly. A GitHub
profile can be used to more effectively market skills and knowledge that a
tech employer would be interested in.

I still contend that its actually _better_ to not use a resume to get a job.
This forces you to find some other way to make an impression with the company
you are interested in. Granted you need to zone in on companies you are
interested in and you can't apply the "shotgun" approach like you can with a
resume ....

but isn't that the point!?

------
mattm
Other than networking, check out <http://careers.stackoverflow.com/jobs> and
select the "Only telecommute jobs" option.

Also try <http://jobs.37signals.com> and look for "Anywhere".

You could also use <http://www.dice.com> or <http://www.authenticjobs.com/>
and select the "Telecommute" option but I've never really had success with
them.

The first two have been a good source for me. I'm currently in Japan and am
still able to get interviews so being that you're in the US, it should be easy
for you. (I also get a lot of people telling me that Japan is just too far
away for working remotely with them).

I echo the comments Github. You don't have to put everything up, just a little
bit to give people the impression of your skill level.

------
Donito
Can we see your online portfolio? As that's probably the first contact with
recruiters/potential customers, maybe something is wrong there.

------
devs1010
Post your resume on craigslist, even for areas outside where you live (such as
the SF Bay area / Silicon Valley), this is how I got one of my early "gigs"
that was an hourly part-time job working remotely. Its good to do this if you
don't have a lot of opportunities in your area, such as if you live in smaller
town / city rather than a large metro area. Once you get that first paying gig
/ job, the rest should come easier, from then on emphasize your work
experience as generally companies want people with some paid experience.

~~~
endoftheropes
I have been doing this, some never get back to me, some do but in the end
don't work out.

~~~
devs1010
by not work out, you mean they never give you any work? I'm curious why,
perhaps you just need to refine your approach, any idea what is causing them
to lose interest?

------
stephenbez
I'm surprised no one has mentioned using the resources at his college to get a
job.

I'd expect he'd have much better luck showing up at his college's job fair and
talking to a developer/recruiter in person who is looking to hire a college
student than sending his resume somewhere online to compete with hundreds of
other people. Research the companies beforehand so when you talk to the person
you can talk intelligently. Have a friend/career services review your resume.

------
proexploit
I'm a frontend developer at a pretty cool company hiring frontend developers
(full time or contract). We pay well if you can code well and produce work on
time / be available. If you don't want to post your portfolio publicly, shoot
me an email (in my profile) and I'll take a look & tell you more about the
company I work for as well.

Out of curiosity, are you looking for freelance only or would you be open to
moving to California as well?

------
ImprovedSilence
I'm guessing you're not looking to re-locate? If relocation was an option, I'd
pick some hot-spot urban areas, and make your search geographic oriented. I
would guess the majority of the companies that would employ you are based in a
city, (especially if you're looking for work at a startup) and you'd have the
best luck in SF, NYC, or Boston, as they're pretty techie. But that's just me,
I'm not a big fan of Ohio...

~~~
mattm
He's in college so relocation is probably not an option for him at the moment.

