
Woman who designed Florida's Covid-19 dashboard removed from her position - danso
https://cbs12.com/news/local/woman-who-designed-floridas-covid-19-dashboard-has-been-removed-from-her-position
======
cbanek
Rebekah Jones said in an email to CBS12 News that her removal was "not
voluntary" and that she was removed from her position because she was ordered
to censor some data, but refused to "manually change data to drum up support
for the plan to reopen."

Wow. I don't even know what to say. This is horrible, and misinformation at
its worst. I feel like this is the magic marker on the hurricane map that
nobody can easily laugh at, because they can't see it.

~~~
simonebrunozzi
If that is true (and I have no reason to doubt it), I hope that:

1) She will not be subject to long term repercussions for being honest and
doing her job

2) Whoever asked her to cook the numbers, will be sued and arrested and go to
jail. Cooking the numbers in this case equates to me as killing people,
because decisions related to reopening, etc, will be heavily influenced by
these numbers.

3) I hope that someone Rebekah Jones will know that unknown people in the
internet, even in this obscure hacker site called Hacker News, are proud of
what she stood for. She has nothing to gain and everything to lose, and yet
she chose the right path. (again, assuming this is true)

~~~
pjc50
Are you new to American politics? The demand to cook the books undoubtedly
came from the top, whoever investigates can also be fired, and the public are
out demanding that reopening happen even if it kills people.

~~~
bzb3
Regardless of what happened to this woman, if the public wants the reopening,
then by all means it should happen. The opposite, house arrest against the
public wishes, is terrifying.

~~~
tonyedgecombe
There have been several polls that show the public is happy with the lockdown,
even Republicans.

~~~
bzb3
I misunderstood what the gp meant by "the public are out demanding that
reopening happens".

------
WillDaSilva
Here is the email she sent to the Florida Coronavirus listserv (copied from
/u/aerlenbach on Reddit):

Hey all –

I’ve gotten a lot of emails from everyone during the last eight days ever
since the dashboard went down, the data was hidden, and the functionality
essentially crashed, so to clear up the confusion, I’m sending this final
notice to the group.

For reasons beyond my division’s control, as of late in the day on May 5, my
office (the DOH-GIS office) is no longer managing the COVID-19 Dashboard. I am
no longer involved in the publication of data, fixing errors, answering
questions, etc., in any shape or form. I helped them get it back running a few
times but I have no knowledge about their plans, what data they are now
restricting, what data will be added and when, or any of that. I understand,
appreciate, and even share your concern about all the dramatic changes that
have occurred and those that are yet to come. However, I cannot provide any
insight now or going forward.

As a word of caution, I would not expect the new team to continue the same
level of accessibility and transparency that I made central to the process
during the first two months. After all, my commitment to both is largely
(arguably entirely) the reason I am no longer managing it.

They are making a lot of changes. I would advise being diligent in your
respective uses of this data. I know many of you have broken API links and map
layers. I’ve listed the contacts for getting that information below.

The primary contacts going forward are listed below.

Anything related to EPI: REDACTED or REDACTED

Anything related to the technical aspects of the dashboard: REDACTED

It was great working with you guys. Good luck, and stay safe.

-30-

Rebekah Jones, GISP

GIS Manager| Division of Disease Control and Health Protection

PHONE # & EMAIL REDACTED

~~~
JackFr
Reading the plain text of her letter, there is no accusation of wrongdoing, no
cooking the numbers, etc. Rather it is a lot of innuendo. Which data to
present and how is always an editorial decision as in the case of every other
state’s DOH website and every newspapers dashboard.

This is not a whistleblower complaint. It’s only evidence of bad faith on the
part of the governor if you come in assuming bad faith to begin with.

~~~
makomk
I think I've got a good guess what data she didn't want removed or changed,
and it's not exactly good for her case. On May the 5th, they day she was
removed from her position, there was an all-time high spike of 113 reported
coronavirus deaths due to Florida reporting a bunch of old deaths all at once:
[https://www.tampabay.com/news/health/2020/05/15/florida-
adds...](https://www.tampabay.com/news/health/2020/05/15/florida-
adds-43-coronavirus-deaths-as-state-continues-to-reopen/)

This did not represent an actual spike in deaths which had in reality been
declining, but if I remember rightly some people did spin it as deaths
increasing due to the lockdown being lifted. Deaths by date reported are
conspicuously missing from the current version of the dashboard; it only has
dates by date of death, which is far less favourable to the claim that lifting
the lockdown is causing an increase in deaths.

~~~
rovolo
I think that using date-of-report is better for lay-people. Pro/cons:

\- There's a one time spike when the methodology changes

= The data lags reality on the ground (true for both date-of-report and date-
of-death)

\+ Past dates aren't updated, so there isn't a continuous bias to show a
slowdown in the number of new deaths

I think that the last point is the most important because it's super easy for
people to misinterpret provisional data. People were talking about covid-19
not causing excess mortality because using date-of-death always shows a dip
for the present:
[https://twitter.com/TylerMorganMe/status/1248452375162925057](https://twitter.com/TylerMorganMe/status/1248452375162925057)

You can also see the same thing in the top comment on this Euromomo thread:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22866238](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22866238)

> Another very surprising thing is to see no excess mortality in Sweden, a
> country criticized for a laxer strategy against COVID-19. I was not
> expecting to see that.

That was week 14 for [https://euromomo.eu/graphs-and-
maps/](https://euromomo.eu/graphs-and-maps/) . In fact, week 14's excess death
z-score for Sweden was in the "very high excess" category after the data was
collected.

------
isolli
Original link to the newspaper that broke the story:
[https://www.floridatoday.com/story/news/2020/05/18/censorshi...](https://www.floridatoday.com/story/news/2020/05/18/censorship-
covid-19-data-researcher-removed-florida-moves-re-open-state/5212398002/)

Local news is incredibly important. For instance, the Miami Herald's
investigations uncovered the Epstein scandal:
[https://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/article220097825.html](https://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/article220097825.html)

------
asdf333
which one of us techies and software engineers would be brave enough to take
the stand and risk our job?

how many of us would look the other way and make some excuse about how it’s
not our call and we are just doing our jobs?

i hope that if our time ever comes, we would all have the courage to stand up
for the truth like she did.

~~~
nicbou
In practice, it's very difficult fo make such decisions. I'm a young, single
developer with other revenue streams. I am not risking a lot, so honesty and
integrity are cheap.

However, many people don't have such a luxury, especially outside the tech
community.

~~~
Consultant32452
I think there's a u-shape here. Lots of jobs are disposable. Being the
bartender at Chili's is not much different than being the bartender at Olive
Garden. So there's lots of jobs on the low end where it's relatively easy to
dump the job and get another. My intuition is that the middle has the hardest
time, once you get enough job specialization and income.

------
nartz
Why are there no repurcussions for what essentially amounts to fraud? Why is
it acceptable for politicians to commit fraud, but not for anyone else?

~~~
lazyjones
Repercussions based on a single person's unproven allegations? Would you like
to live in a place where this is the norm?

~~~
paganel
I have to say I haven't followed this news that close but as far as I could
understand most of the covid-related data for Florida plus some map layers are
now gone/not accessible any more, so that proves that the most important
allegation of this person is correct, i.e. the powers that be wanted the data
closest to the truth not to be easily accessible anymore.

~~~
makomk
I can't figure out what data is actually missing for Florida. It looks like
there's currently data on cases, hospitalizations and deaths at the county
level, as well as historical data on new cases per day and deaths per day (by
day of death). The only things that seems to be missing are historical deaths
by date reported, historical hospitalizations, and historical county-level
data, and most of those are likely to just be noise - admittedly, noise that
would be very useful to publications cynically wanting to cherry-pick data and
misrepresent it as evidence of a spike due to the reopening like they have
with other states, but that doesn't seem like a reason why publishing it would
help inform us.

(In fact, I think Florida was actually the state where people took a all-time
high spike in newly-reported coronavirus deaths due to the state reporting a
bunch of old deaths at once as proof reopening was killing people. And that
spike happened on the same day - May the 5th - as this woman complained that
she was supposedly removed for "manually change data to drum up support for
the plan to reopen.")

------
mwill
Someone has posted an email on reddit claiming it was sent out by the woman in
question:

[https://www.reddit.com/r/Coronavirus/comments/gmfkoa/woman_w...](https://www.reddit.com/r/Coronavirus/comments/gmfkoa/woman_who_designed_floridas_covid19_dashboard_has/fr3dz42/)

------
lazyjones
Here's an update and perhaps a broader perspective:

[https://www.miamiherald.com/news/coronavirus/article24285125...](https://www.miamiherald.com/news/coronavirus/article242851256.html)

> _“Rebekah Jones exhibited a repeated course of insubordination during her
> time with the department, including her unilateral decisions to modify the
> department’s COVID-19 dashboard without input or approval from the
> epidemiological team or her supervisors,” Ferré said. “The blatant
> disrespect for the professionals who were working around the clock to
> provide the important information for the COVID-19 website was harmful to
> the team. Accuracy and transparency are always indispensable, especially
> during an unprecedented public health emergency such as COVID-19. Having
> someone disruptive cannot be tolerated during this public pandemic, which
> led the department to determine that it was best to terminate her
> employment.”_

So, depending on what you choose to believe at this point, you could also
consider the possibility that she was making modifications to inflate the
numbers and exaggerate the problem.

------
genidoi
Deeply unsettling to imagine that the US statistics aren't trustworthy.

~~~
TeMPOraL
Anyone ever believed them? Throughout March and most April, US statistics were
essentially worthless because testing was not being done - and that
(especially early) happened on purpose, so it pretty much amounts to lying.

~~~
TheOtherHobbes
Same for the UK - only reporting official in-hospital deaths that were tested,
while limiting the number of tests.

Much harder to fix the ONS excess death stats, and those are now running at
around 55,000.

~~~
TeMPOraL
Yeah, excess deaths are probably the only reliable metric we have anywhere at
this point.

Over here in Poland, I've heard enough rumors in April that obviously-
COVID-19-related deaths aren't counted as COVID-19 deaths because of a
technicality, so I'm not giving much confidence to our official stats either.
But it's harder to cook overall deaths.

------
anoplus
If we want to progress as a society we must step up for transparency. This
kind of deliberate misinformation is devastating

------
sneak
Cory Doctorow wrote the following recently, which seems on topic for this
thread:

[https://pluralistic.net/2020/05/08/volcano-
gods/#reopening](https://pluralistic.net/2020/05/08/volcano-gods/#reopening)

~~~
titzer
That piece is spot on. The common theme is that a distributed value system
based on personal gain is absolutely and totally at odds with preempting a
pandemic. The economic interests of business owners and investors is directly
at odds with the health and safety of the public. The market won't fix this.
It will just price death in. And guess what? They're busy pushing that cost to
zero through their corrupt influence on politicians.

------
darkside11
This is hardly a surprise. Just because a bunch of screaming uneducated people
demand to open the country, ( and have the support they need), doesn't mean
it's the smart thing to do. Many people will be in jeopardy and it doesn't
matter as long as they can keep the economy rolling. When people become so
sick they can't buy things or go to work and the numbers get bigger, to big to
hide...then things will get real. Everyone should be prepared for another
setback because this is not going to just be...oh yeah all is back to normal
guys! No worries....

------
titzer
I have often wondered whether there are any objective criteria for judging
intelligence at all, or whether it is all subjective. It must be the case that
the success of accurately modeling the world around you, predicting the future
of the world around you based on your model, and taking action to achieve an
outcome is one way to evaluate intelligence. If we have two minds, and one is
better at modeling and taking action and achieving its own desired outcomes,
then it must be considered more intelligent, right? But here's the rub!
Effective modeling cannot be done with garbage (or no) data. Literally
choosing to have bad data cannot possibly lead to better decision-making, as
the model is less and less accurate.

In other words, garbage in, garbage out. "Lalalala I can't hear you, you can't
see me, we aren't dying" is an objectively stupid strategy. And it's leading
to objectively bad results. Let me just say it bluntly. This is _stupid_.
Please can we use that word again? Stupid. Stupid. Stupid.

Infuriating.

------
game_the0ry
For the data scientists of HN - is it common for "the business" to exert
influence on your data, so that it results in some conclusion that they want
(rather than a truthful conclusion)? I knew a guy who dropped out of an ivy
league phd because he was recruited by hedge fund to do data science stuff (no
idea what) and he gave me the impression that most of his work was selectively
choosing and presenting data that he knew would make management happy, and
that he was rewarded with career advancement as a result.

So how common is this?

Side note - someone please hire Ms. Jones.

------
fzeroracer
It's getting harder to trust any data coming from state officials as they move
to censor or manipulate it so that they can make a better case for reopening
too soon. A lot of this tension can be seen as local governments attempt to
implement their own coronavirus restrictions only for the state to override
them like here in Texas.

I'm assuming the plan is that when we inevitably get hit by a second wave they
can just blame the businesses or the counties for not doing a good enough job
or something. Considering how much of a joke the reopening guidelines have
been and how little the state is willing to enforce them.

~~~
chrisco255
I'll tell you this, as an anecdote, my mother works in a hospital in central
Florida, in The Villages, the largest retirement community in the state. She
says it's never been so slow. They've had to cut shifts, and she's seen worse
flu seasons than what they went through over the past 2 months. They were
never at more than 50% capacity. And they never had more than a dozen Covid
patients at any given time.

~~~
whycombagator
Interesting, but perhaps that anecdote makes sense?

It’s kind of middle of nowhere FL with a low population density.

Everyone is retired and the closest major airports are Tampa and Orlando (I
think) and I suspect visitors/tourism to The Villages are relatively low in
number.

Additionally, from what I last saw around 50% of confirmed cases were in South
FL. Where there are major international airports, plentiful tourism, and
greater population density.

~~~
chrisco255
These retirees are generally well off financially. They frequently return home
to their families out of state and travel a lot whether by cruise, RV, or air.
They dine out constantly and meet in the town squares for dancing and social
activities in large numbers. I still strongly suspect there's some x-factor
for Covid that protects people from it's worst effects. That could be vitamin
D levels or some other vaccine they already received.

At any rate, this is why I argue each local community should deal with
situation as it evolves. You can't pretend the virus is hitting everywhere
equally at once and it makes no sense to shut businesses down when your local
hospital is at less than 50% capacity.

~~~
cozzyd
Are they currently "dining out constantly and meeting in the town square for
dancing"? I suspect they probably are aware of the high IFR in their
demographic and acting accordingly.

------
billme
According to story, “COVID-19 dashboard designer faces cyber sexual harassment
charges”, say the Governor of Florida:

[https://cbs12.com/news/local/covid-19-dashboard-designer-
fac...](https://cbs12.com/news/local/covid-19-dashboard-designer-faces-cyber-
sexual-harassment-charges-desantis-says)

------
mrfusion
No one seems to be asking what the data in question is? Surely the correct
data was reported elsewhere? What was hidden exactly?

------
sethgoodluck
Data tampering of this sort should be highly illegal. Like, years in prison,
illegal.

------
skrebbel
When I opened the article I got a gdrp cookie popup from Sinclair, who
apparently owns CBS12.

I'm not American and all I know about the US media landscape is what I get
from HN, but isn't Sinclair this local broadcaster that's notorious for
spreading absolute bollocks all the time?

Does this site have anything to do with the real CBS?

More specifically, is any of this true?

~~~
danso
I have no reason to distrust the local CBS affiliate, but in any case, it’s a
summary of a story reported by this news outlet:
[https://www.floridatoday.com/story/news/2020/05/18/censorshi...](https://www.floridatoday.com/story/news/2020/05/18/censorship-
covid-19-data-researcher-removed-florida-moves-re-open-state/5212398002/)

Note that floridatoday.com is a Gannett/GateHouse paper, and the reason why I
didn’t submit it is because I had thought that network is inaccesible to EU
users.

~~~
isolli
Actually the Florida Today website opens with this banner: "Welcome to USA
TODAY NETWORK’S EUROPEAN UNION EXPERIENCE", and is entirely ad free.

I believe it is better in general to post the original source, in order to
support local journalism.

~~~
danso
Nice! Thank you for the info

------
tibbydudeza
US is no different from China it seems.

~~~
gwd
There is _always_ a temptation for people in power to "massage the facts" (for
various levels of "massage") to make themselves look good. One difference
between the US and China is that we have the freedom to call it out and
discuss it. _Hopefully_ a second difference is that we'll have the political
will to fire the people who asked to do the "massaging" \-- whether that will
happen or not remains to be seen.

~~~
TheOtherHobbes
What difference does "the freedom to discuss it" make if it has no effect on
policy?

~~~
SpicyLemonZest
Public discussions inherently have an effect on policy. That's why China
censors so extensively. The reason they can apply strict lockdowns to cities
with double-digit case counts is that their citizens can't have discussions
about "hey this seems an overreaction".

------
jariel
The comments here on HN are borderline irresponsible.

All we know is that someone was removed for what they perceived be 'censoring
some data' \- and we really have almost no context or material facts.

It continues to amaze me how people jump to conclusions and can't fathom how
power, information, and communications work within any organization and that
it's always complicated.

Having responsibility is almost 100% 'making sausage' and there is literally
no situation in which the public will have access to 100% of the information,
and when they do, it will be communicated in a specific way, hopefully for the
public good.

For example, someone could feel that it's 'really important' to publish the
latest finding on Hyrcoxychloroquine, or Remdesevir or whatever, when from a
public communications perspective, it may not be helpful at all to be a focus
on this information. Some might call this censorship, some might call it
suppression, others might call it responsible.

How about hospital vacancy rates? Because all over North America, the vast
majority of Hospitals are sitting idle, and medical staff are being laid off.
Funny we don't see that on CNN. Obviously, from a public health policy, maybe
this wouldn't be such a good set of data to focus on because people might get
the impression that there is materially no pandemic, unable to grasp that in
fact, the low rates of hospitalization are due to social distancing measures.

My gosh man this is everyday life in so many fields.

If some Florida politician was trying to literally get numbers manipulated,
hopefully, this will be dealt with in the criminal justice system, but this
may not be the case.

COVID is a sausage-making communications nightmare for everyone involved,
there are massive legal issues, massive economic consequences, existential
life and death concerns, literally geopolitical realignment happening in real-
time.

Let's try to get more information.

Edit - a relevant example from Miami Herald: [1] "But since the state’s first
confirmed coronavirus case, officials have kept some basic information
confidential. Most notable: DeSantis has chosen not to reveal the names of
nursing homes experiencing outbreaks — cases that, according to Florida
Department of Health data, have resulted in at least 126 deaths."

This is exactly the same in Quebec - they don't want to release the individual
names of the homes (they are of course known to the occupants and relatives)
because it's not meaningful information for the public to have. They've made a
reasonable case for not doxxing the homes with problems.

So this is a pretty good example of where public information is managed for
the public good. It happens everywhere.

What troubles me specifically about the whistleblower complaint is that there
were no specifics at all - no actual articulation of malfeasance. 'Censorship'
is a pretty vague term.

[1]
[https://www.miamiherald.com/news/coronavirus/article24205069...](https://www.miamiherald.com/news/coronavirus/article242050696.html)

~~~
titzer
> Let's try to get more information.

The irony of this part.

We need to hold leaders accountable, and we need to make good decisions. They
are actively undermining that ability by censoring data and trying to cover
their asses.

The rest of your comment trots out a truckload of red herrings about
information we might not want to look at right now, or some disgruntled or
misguided person not following proper channels and rushing to get out crap
information about drugs or something. These things could not be less related
to what we are talking about here. FFS they _fired_ the person whose _official
job_ it was to make information available to the public and she reports it was
because they wanted to censor it. I mean, does that not strike you as
something she should absolutely blow the whistle on?

~~~
jariel
"FFS they fired the person whose official job it was to make information
available to the public and she reports it was because they wanted to censor
it. "

I think you are misreading my point and definitely misunderstanding the nature
of the person's job.

We don't know what happened and 'censored' can mean a lot of things.

My quotes are not 'red herrings' \- they are examples of what is happening
right now.

The Miami Herald is upset that Flordia would not publish the names of
retirement homes?

What if this is literally the issue in question? What if this 'whistleblower'
wanted to publish said names, but the Gov. didn't want her to? Is this worthy
of whistle-blowing? I don't think so.

What if she wanted to make a graph where the landing page highlighted 'total
new cases' (which looks bad because it's always rising) but the state wants
'daily new cases' (which looks better because it's ostensibly flat. Is that
censorship?

And by the way - disgruntled people are fired all the time.

What we need is more information, and it's odd that the state employee did not
actually give more specifics, it would validate the cause a little better.

Finally - it's not her job to decide what goes out and whatnot. Definitely
not, that's a fairly high-level decision. Her job is to communicate and
coordinate it effectively. But again, using my example the decision as to 'do
we name the long term care homes or not?' is definitely above her pay grade.
That's a communications job it will touch the highest levels.

So again - we need more information in order to determine the severity of what
happened here. Maybe there is fraud rising to criminality, in which case I
hope someone goes to jail, but it may not be that.

~~~
titzer
On the one hand you say we need more information, but the bulk of your comment
is pure speculation and distraction. You already made a conclusion about her
claims and it's obvious from the giant cloud of doubt you are trying to
create. That's an unhealthy skepticism at best and bad faith incredulism at
worst. Both are chilling effects for holding leaders accountable. I also think
you don't understand what a red herring [1] is. Stop distracting with
irrelevant anecdotes.

[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_herring](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_herring)

------
throwaway202v
This is pattern from this current crop of hyper-partisan political leadership

Whether it’s stuff like this, crapping on journalists for asking legit
questions, concealing or even destroying climate data, etc these folks should
not be trusted with anything of consequence under any circumstances.

The fish rots from the head— even presuming this was the handiwork of some
political appointee/apparatchik/barnacle who wanted to make sure there is no
“bad news”, they got their cue from higher up the food chain.

You’d figure a genuine crisis like this might shake these folks out of their
stupor but no luck yet.

Many folks are stressed af about the economy & there needs to be be a
cost/benefit way to measure the risks, etc but this is no good.

This is the kind of shady/moronic behavior you’d expect in a political
ecosystem like China, Russia, Turkey, etc

~~~
throwaway-2020
I used to look up to America. It was the country I wished my country was more
like. I often joked I wished the U.S. would buy our country so we could live
in the 51st state. Sure no country doesn't have problems but there was an aura
around America, at least in my eyes.

In the last few years I have been living in shock. I can't believe what is
happening at the top levels of power. I oscillate between disbelief and anger.
I spend most days with a sick feeling in my stomach. I constantly ask myself
"How is this happening? When will someone stop the madness?", but it seems
there is a story like this almost everyday.

I am close to losing hope.

~~~
coliveira
This is not new, but it is getting so bad that people around the world are
finally starting to realize that much of the image of the US is based on the
fiction it sells. Rich country, (still) yes, but freedom and democracy have
taken a turn to the worse in the last decades.

~~~
rurban
You mean since Eisenhower. Nothing much changed since.

------
suby
Let's be more specific. It's republicans.

~~~
vyhd
It really is startling how reviled this sort of comment tends to be, despite
the overarching trend of Republican leadership to systemically misrepresent
and falsify data to support their views.

The next time Democrats pull these shenanigans, name and shame them. Both-
sides-ism only obscures the bad actors that should be directly pressured to do
better.

~~~
icelancer
Deleting due to HN hivemind.

~~~
aaronbrethorst
That's just, like, your opinion, man.

Here's what several news organizations have to say about Ron DeSantis (R-FL):

"Stop hiding true COVID-19 stats, Gov. DeSantis. Our lives are still at risk"
—
[https://www.miamiherald.com/opinion/editorials/article242557...](https://www.miamiherald.com/opinion/editorials/article242557271.html)

"Florida avoided COVID-19 catastrophe by ignoring DeSantis, Trump" —
[https://www.sun-sentinel.com/opinion/commentary/fl-op-com-
sc...](https://www.sun-sentinel.com/opinion/commentary/fl-op-com-schultz-
governor-ron-desantis-public-trust-20200512-llb6fmxjwvg6pm3alyhghl7wiu-
story.html)

"[Florida] blocked medical examiners from making public their own fatality
counts and released a list of those deaths last week only after redacting key
information" — [https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/does-florida-gov-
ro...](https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/does-florida-gov-ron-desantis-
know-what-hes-doing-were-about-to-find-
out/2020/05/08/8bf6537c-9135-11ea-a9c0-73b93422d691_story.html)

 _Edit: the Cuomo section is an edit made after I posted this, as is the [0]
addendum_

------
pojntfx
As an EU citizen, the US response to COVID-19 really is laughable. It's just
that a lot of people die due to this ideological "but muh freedom" mentality.

~~~
nickpp
As an EU citizen, I am still waiting for the EU response to COVID-19.

~~~
TeMPOraL
There won't be any, because EU is by design and vote not meant to have any
response. We're not United Federation of Europe; the EU explicitly doesn't
dictate medical policy across member states.

~~~
nickpp
I'm closing 3 popups on every website I visit due to those not-policies not-
dictated by not-EU.

Now I realize that cookies and IP-addresses gathered by Facebook are truly
important things, unlike this tiny "flu-like" virus, but still...

~~~
TeMPOraL
You're closing 3 popups on every website because the authors of those websites
are huge assholes. There is no need for a consent popup on a website unless
the website is doing something shady. Perhaps the greatest failure of GDPR is
that this point needs to be explained ad nauseam.

Anyway, this is irrelevant. EU was explicitly not meant to rule on healthcare-
related matters for its member nations, so it's not ruling. That's a fact of
the matter. Perhaps after all of this, people will vote to include healthcare
into the EU's purview - and only then we'll be able to criticize its response
to the next crisis.

~~~
nickpp
No, those website authors are NOT assholes. They are providing awesome
services I appreciate and take advantage of every day, otherwise I wouldn't
visit them.

I don't know what you think they are doing shady, but it never bothered me.
Until some EU-asshole decided to protect me from myself, I guess.

When everybody is breaking the law maybe it is the law that is broken, eh?

~~~
TeMPOraL
> _They are providing awesome services I appreciate and take advantage of
> every day, otherwise I wouldn 't visit them._

GDPR is there to ensure those awesome services aren't also taking advantage of
you, by requiring them to disclose when they want to do so, and to ask you to
explicitly agree to be taken advantage of. Clarity in business relationships
is good, isn't it?

> _When everybody is breaking the law maybe it is the law that is broken, eh?_

Not necessarily, not when it's broken for profit and to the detriment of the
parties that doesn't partake in that profit. Going by your law of reasoning,
slavery and child labour should've never been banned (after all, "everyone" in
plantations/factories would be found breaking that law), and environmental
protections should've never existed either ("what do you say I can no longer
dump toxic waste into the river?").

~~~
nickpp
> GDPR is there to ensure those awesome services aren't also taking advantage
> of you

You still haven’t explained how exactly I was taken advantage of. Because I
never had anything to complain about. On the contrary, I was quite happy until
EU started "helping" me.

> Going by your law of reasoning, slavery and child labour should've never
> been banned

Are you really comparing logging visitor IP addresses to slavery, child labor
and toxic waste???

~~~
TeMPOraL
> _You still haven’t explained how exactly I was taken advantage of._

Every possible kind of data you radiate during your visit to such a site is
collected and passed on to third parties that aggregate it to build a detailed
profile of you, based on the information from sites you visit, services you
use, games you play, places you shop, etc. That profile is nowadays primarily
used to target you with advertising and direct marketing efforts - or, in
other words, to suck money out of you, a little bit at a time. You're losing
money because of this data collection - that's the primary reason for that
collection in the first place - but it happens slowly and naturally, so you
don't notice.

And then there's a good chance that such profile of you will eventually find
its way to your insurance provider, healthcare provider, or that your
government decides to take a step towards totalitarianism, and then they'll
have everyone's digital twins available for the secret police for free. I
agree that the last one is hypothetical, but not _that_ hypothetical, all
things considering.

> _Are you really comparing logging visitor IP addresses to slavery, child
> labor and toxic waste???_

No, I'm just showing the logical consequences of your "When everybody is
breaking the law maybe it is the law that is broken, eh?" through examples
that are a little bit more clear-cut.

Also, it's not "logging visitor IP" that causes the popup, it's "logging
visitor IP, associating it with a bunch of UUIDs, and sending those UUIDs,
along with whatever information the visitor's browser could gather _and_ the
server could give, to a bunch of third parties who also receive similar
packets of information from other sites you visit". Also2, it's not
"everybody", it's just businessmen. Normal people don't go around, record data
about others without their knowledge or consent, and sell it to data brokers.

------
sjg007
So the government is lying. Thought only communist dictatorships did this.

~~~
6510
The difference is that people living under dictatorship don't believe anything
their government says.

------
mrfusion
Not to get in the way of a good mob with pitchforks, but so far this is just
one persons claim. There’s no other evidence.

We don’t believe Joe Biden’s accuser without more evidence, why do we believe
this lady automatically?

------
horsemessiah
Imagine how different the comments would be if this article were about
China...

~~~
dariusj18
I'm having trouble imagining the difference. I think people would still be
claiming government corruption and hoping for accountability.

------
nkkollaw
It's all fake data, anyway.

They're counting cancer patients that were given 30 days to live as COVID if
they were positive when they died.

