
China’s social credit system ‘could interfere in other nations’ sovereignty’ - raleighm
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/jun/28/chinas-social-credit-system-could-interfere-in-other-nations-sovereignty
======
Latteland
That is pretty horrible that so many companies from outside can be pressured
to behave outside of china, like changing how they describe Taiwan. But that's
separate from social credit, and that's not new.

~~~
King-Aaron
> That is pretty horrible that so many companies from outside can be pressured
> to behave outside of china, like changing how they describe Taiwan.

Try this on for size then. Cliff notes: school kids have their designs on a
fake cow painted over, as not to offend the Chinese beef industry...

[http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-05-09/childrens-cow-
statue-d...](http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-05-09/childrens-cow-statue-
design-altered-taiwan-flag-painted-over-qld/9739574)

~~~
guitarbill
Not the first time either, e.g. lecturers getting in trouble for calling
Taiwan a country: [https://www.bbc.com/news/world-
australia-41104634](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-australia-41104634)

This is not likely to change, universities make too much money off foreign
students. Australia is maybe in a more precarious position simply because of
their geographic location and the resulting trade partners. (That isn't to say
Australia is the only place this pressure is felt though.)

~~~
true_religion
I thought Taiwan believed themselves to be China. As the govt. in exile.

~~~
tivert
> I thought Taiwan believed themselves to be China. As the govt. in exile.

Some of them do, and I believe that's still the official position (so as to
not anger the PRC), but they've been politically separate for so long that
many Taiwanese believe they are a separate nation and have little desire for
future political integration with the mainland [1]. IIRC, the current
Taiwanese president is from a pro-independence [2].

[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiwan_independence_movement](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiwan_independence_movement)

[2] [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tsai_Ing-wen#Cross-
strait_rela...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tsai_Ing-wen#Cross-
strait_relations)

------
b6
> it may have positive benefits for Chinese citizens because government
> officials can be blacklisted for corrupt behaviour

I understand the Guardian's reporter needs to report what people said, but for
the love of god, could they please stop giving support to this absurd notion
that "corruption" crackdowns in China have anything to do with corruption?
They are almost always about power consolidation.

~~~
geoalchimista
Couldn't agree more with you. I suspect that their reporters either have a
very poor understanding of what a totalitarian state is, or they just couldn't
be bothered to visit any place beyond Beijing and Shanghai (which represent <
5% of China) for field studies.

~~~
dnomad
What's really strange are Westerners who unilaterally deem China totalitarian,
a sentiment not shared by most Chinese themselves. You wonder if people will
ever outgrow the need to invent a boogeyman to legitimize their own dire
circumstances. Imagine, victims of one of the most profoundly inequal systems
in the world railing against Communism/Socialism/China/that-other-system.

~~~
b6
You're right, the sentiment is not shared by most Chinese people. Then again,
most of them wouldn't recognize the Tank Man picture. They have no legitimate
news journalism. Their version of the internet is profoundly sabotaged. Human
rights lawyers are routinely kidnapped and their families placed under
indefinite house arrest. When protests happen, they are violently crushed and
subject to complete media blackout. If Chinese people were able to express
themselves and hear others express themselves, with some semblance of a news
media, I think they'd feel quite differently.

~~~
dnomad
Your fantasy version of China bears little relation to reality. In fact
there's vibrant discussion online and in person, frequent protests (which
actually produce real change because local officials are very sensitive to
protests [1]) and plentiful journalism that is far less corporate controlled
and far more relevant to the common person. Feel free to hop on a plane and
come visit. This "totalitarian state" can be freely visited by most anybody
(stop by Hong Kong to pick up a visa).

[1] [http://time.com/5323079/china-army-veterans-protests-xi-
jinp...](http://time.com/5323079/china-army-veterans-protests-xi-jinping/)

~~~
b6
I lived in China for three years. I speak Mandarin. The article you linked is
a report in western media. Can you find the same story in Chinese media?

~~~
dnomad
Considering that everybody's talking about it online and GT (Global Times)
just published an editorial I don't think it would be too difficult. (BTW,
congrats on making it out alive. Millions of people weren't so fortunate and
failed to escape from such totalitarian states.)

~~~
pertymcpert
They're right though, and you must not be pushing any kind of sensitive
boundary to think it's not an authoritarian state.

Which town are you from? In the countryside there are hilarious Big Brother
style posters on houses promoting civil obedience. People don't think it's
strange at all, of course they're not going to recognise the depths of their
repression unless they're educated and well traveled.

------
est
Here is the system

www.gsxt.gov.cn

Everyone can query for enterprise basic info, executives info, shareholders
name, annual reports (if any), and also, as the article says, credit and
violations.

You can type "微软" for Microsoft as an example. (there might be a bullshit
CAPTICHA where you must drag the tile to the missing place)

btw I hate articles that rambles about "some guy say" instead of some plain,
direct hyperlink to the goddamn website. The reader should have basic Internet
skills and judgement level.

~~~
mFixman
I can't make sense of the captcha. I get an image with 5 Hanzi embedded, and
I'm supposed to click in 5 different places – but clicking on the characters
doesn't work.

~~~
est
They had that? damn. I think you were supposed to click the characters in
idiomatic order.

Try refresh the page. The one I've encountered were tile dragging ones.

------
mcprwklzpq
Am i parsing this wrong?

The first headline says: China’s social credit system ‘could interfere in
other nations’ sovereignty’

And the second headline says: [China’s social credit system] is shaping
behaviour of foreign businesses

So "to interfere in other nations sovereignty" is "to shape behaviour of
foreign businesses"? So "other nation" is "foreign business"? So "business" is
"nation"?

------
Arn_Thor
Affecting how businesses choose to conduct themselves so that they may
continue to access the Chinese market? Sure! Impacting the sovereignty of
other countries? What a ridiculous statement..

Companies have always catered to the major markets. That's how California fuel
standards have become the US benchmark, or why Texas school boards in effect
control national teaching materials and school books in the US. Companies also
have a history of being used as political tools, willingly or not. The only
reason we're suddenly seeing outrage is because the one wielding these tools
is China, not the US. That's not to say I support any of the shit China's
pulling.. But Australia, Austria or whomever still retain their sovereignty
and freedom to set whatever rules they want within their borders. Companies
can comply if they wish to do business there.

~~~
rdlecler1
One might argue that those are progressive benchmarks. A lunatics social
credit system is not.

------
woodandsteel
>Critics of China’s social credit system say it is an Orwellian tool of social
monitoring and political repression; but the Chinese government says it is a
way of boosting administrative efficiency and encouraging trust and moral
behaviour by its citizens.

This is so sad. China is such bad shape on matters like trust and moral
behavior that the government has to resort to these sorts of extreme measures.

The problem is this will likely just backfire over the long term. The more
expression is suppressed, then the less real information about facts and
people's views is available to the government, and so the government makes
worse and worse decisions. Just watch this happen in the coming years and
decades.

------
rmbeard
This is also likely to impact web-services internationally in cases where you
need a license to be viewed from China even if you are hosted internationally.
This happens in the case of some content delivery networks and related
software that are specifically targeted.Alternatively, they can throttle your
access. Add social credit to that and you have a tool that makes GDPR look
positively benign.

~~~
geoalchimista
> This is also likely to impact web-services internationally in cases where
> you need a license to be viewed from China even if you are hosted
> internationally.

I'm afraid you are being optimistic. They do things way worse than that. The
Great Firewall can block your website for no reason [1]. By 'block' I mean
completely blocked, even if you use OpenVPN, GFW can detect its packet and
still block it. Back in 2016 there was a time that even GitHub was blocked.
And bandwidth throttling has been in place as early as 2014 for websites that
are not completely blocked by GFW. Now the so-called "social credit system" is
basically the Skynet or Matrix. If the US and other western democracies don't
stand up to this kind of lunacy and bullying, then nothing would be able to
stop China.

[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Websites_blocked_in_mainland_C...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Websites_blocked_in_mainland_China)

~~~
rmbeard
Yes, I know. there are ways around it though, even without VPN. What I was
referring to was PRC pressuring foreign companies via the internet license
mechanism, basically they have used targeted bandwidth throttling of foreign
companies/technology that have not purchased PRC internet licenses. If you buy
the license they don't throttle you. They have also been centralising internet
routing regionally to speed things up. Basically, you have a two-speed
internet. It's similar to what would likely happen if net neutrality were
scrapped in the US. Social credit could lso be applied globally, even to
nation states if they so chose. Couple it to the internet license and they
have a powerful too that reaches far beyond their geographical territory.

