
Why can’t America get the sidewalk café right? - kitcar
http://www.thesmartset.com/article/article04171401.aspx
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kareemm
I once did a non-simultaneous home exchange with an elderly couple from Rome
(I live in Vancouver).

When they arrived, they asked where the "Piazzas" are here in Vancouver - to
sit and enjoy a communal public space.

I was at a loss - there really aren't any public spaces designed for just
watching the world go by here other than the beach, which closes at 10p - cops
zoom up and down on 4x4s kicking people off the beach.

The woman said something that stayed with me and, I think, is true: "You know,
in Europe homes are small, there are many public spaces, and life is lived in
the streets. In North America houses are bigger, people have more land and
entertain at home, and life is lived at home."

~~~
elnate
Why do they close the beach?

~~~
saraid216
Likely because someone sued them for letting the beach go un-patrolled at
night. If it's closed, they don't have to pay anyone to patrol it.

~~~
k-mcgrady
Why does the beach have to be patrolled? Are the beaches you're referring to
privately owned?

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Adam503
Too much travel done by car in the US.

Sidewalk cafes in Europe thrive off foot traffic to and mass transit and
bicycles.

All those cars require all the parking lots. Parking decks are too expensive
for every little cafe to build. So the businesses group to pool the parking
cost. A strip mall.

You want a cafes scene? Get rid of most the cars.

~~~
saraid216
This is one of the critical things that put the lie to the claim that parking
spaces = customers. Cars get rid of customers, so you have to put in parking
spaces just to get some of them back.

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chrismealy
The streets are too damned wide. America's streets were too wide even before
cars. More here:

[http://www.newworldeconomics.com/archives/2013/112413.html](http://www.newworldeconomics.com/archives/2013/112413.html)

~~~
jonasvp
No kidding. Check out this blog to see what difference street width makes. The
author narrowed LA's streets using Photoshop and it instantly feels more
livable:
[http://narrowstreetsla.blogspot.de](http://narrowstreetsla.blogspot.de)

~~~
ulfw
Fantastic! Thanks for sharing

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yawz
I live in Boulder, CO and they definitely get it right. It really depends on
where you are. The same goes for Europe.

We are all very critical of our own country. Visiting a country is not the
same as living in that country. You don't necessary see it the same way and
the grass is always greener on the other side (especially in Ireland :) ). So
I have the impression that the author is overreacting a little.

~~~
rokhayakebe
I do not think they are overreacting. There is just nothing in the U.S. which
is akin to Parisian "side-walk cafes." I have been longing for these here, and
I would drive a good 15 minutes if I had to. Well at least there aren't any I
know of in Orange County, Phoenix, Atlanta, or Hawaii which are about the only
places where I lived here.

~~~
a8000
Lots of european cities have pedestrian zones, usually in the historical
center of the city, there also aren't as many malls. The traditional medieval
european city layout has market, town and church squares at their core and
those are still places of public gathering today.

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beachstartup
because in most US cities the sidewalks are too narrow, the streets are too
wide, traffic too loud, and service not up to par. but this is a mundane
argument; of course it is. that's what we're trying to change; that's the
point.

it depends highly on the city (and even neighborhood within city), but we
_should not fault anyone for trying and we should patronize the establishments
that offer sidewalk service as often as we can, even if it 's sub-optimal_.

~~~
raldi
What's wrong with the service?

~~~
dylz
Dunno about you but I occasionally get "Forgotten"

Also some waitstaff tend to get really pissed off about having to go outside
out of the A/C for even a minute.

~~~
raldi
In my experience, getting forgotten by restaurant staff is much more common in
Europe than the US.

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recurrie
If you optimize for cars, you get cities optimized for cars.

Funny that it was a American (Christopher Alexander)who write the most concise
recipe for getting this right in "A Pattern Language." Pattern 88, Street
Café.

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Pattern_Language](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Pattern_Language)

[http://www.jacana.plus.com/pattern/P88.htm](http://www.jacana.plus.com/pattern/P88.htm)

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devindotcom
Hey, we get it right at a couple places in Seattle, but the fact is here the
weather isn't right for it. But in general I feel the sidewalks are too
narrow, largely because the streets are too wide (and the wide streets lead to
another problem, sitting next to traffic).

Design walkable cities, and sidewalk cafes will appear as if by magic. Or
rather, the same way they have appeared in thousands of cities and walkable
neighborhoods worldwide throughout history!

~~~
farnsworth
Where would you recommend in Seattle? I see a few places here and there but
they are so small that I can't depend on being able to get a spot when the
weather is nice.

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cdcarter
In LQA at least, check out Zingarro (for a nice cup of coffee and maybe a
pastry, and a lasting relationship with your barista, probably James) or
Citizen (for a sandwich and a drink outdoors, and Dustin is a pretty great
server).

~~~
farnsworth
I'm in Belltown within easy walking distance so I will definitely check those
out, thanks.

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GuiA
As a European, I greatly enjoyed downtown Palo Alto for this. In SF, north
beach gets it fairly right, but that seems to be it.

~~~
bello
I really like Palo Alto for exactly the same reason. Nice sidewalk cafés and
very walkable.

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Theodores
In Britain, come summertime, most people would prefer to be sat at a trestle
table in the beer garden of a pub rather than being awkwardly perched on some
pavement outside some cafe. Cafe culture is not for us - unless it comes with
a greasy spoon... The streets are too noisy, the council charges cafes for
those chairs and the weather does not help.

I haven't really thought about it before, however, I don't think that the U.S.
has a lot of what we Brits would recognise as a quality beer garden, whether
it be attached to a pub/cafe/restaurant/mall matters not, neither does the
location (in the UK the best beer gardens are in villages).

Is this true or am I imagining things?

Beyond reasons of urban sprawl and car culture, are there any reasons for
this, e.g. prohibition back in the 20's?

~~~
hanley
I've noticed more beer gardens popping up in the US along with the growth in
microbreweries.

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moonka
Seattle has started experimenting with "Parklets[1]" recently. The city gives
up the right of way, and the businesses that sponsor them pay to build them,
but can't restrict it or turn it into an extension of their space. It's an
interesting notion.

[1] [http://www.capitolhillseattle.com/2013/06/capitol-hills-
firs...](http://www.capitolhillseattle.com/2013/06/capitol-hills-first-
parklet-trading-parking-for-park-space-coming-in-august/)

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jonas21
I feel like Boston gets this right, particularly in the Back Bay, but also in
a number of other neighborhoods.

[https://www.google.com/maps/@42.349106,-71.084347,3a,75y,338...](https://www.google.com/maps/@42.349106,-71.084347,3a,75y,338.19h,86.34t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1seCYyE5-fu1t-qrXrKyQZWw!2e0)

Boston shares a lot of characteristics with European cities: relatively narrow
streets, decent public transit, lots of foot traffic, so that may have
something to do with it.

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dchichkov
Murphy Avenue in Sunnyvale gets it right on some weekends, when it is closed
for traffic. It is primarily a pedestrian street and only a few people (who
deserve contempt IMHO) ever drive or try parking there.

By the way, anyone knows what prevents from closing Murphy for cars? I'm
seeing attempts to do that
[http://www.mercurynews.com/ci_18390412](http://www.mercurynews.com/ci_18390412)
but no progress so far. It looks like some business (cafe) owners oppose that.
Should we try obtaining their names and advice them not to oppose closing
Murphy for cars?

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traughber
The area around Mint Plaza in SF, specifically at and around Blue Bottle, does
this well. This was achieved by closing off that street to vehicle traffic,
and allowing only people on foot and bikes in that area.

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AznHisoka
I bet the OP has traveled to only a few cities. New Orleans gets it right. NYC
definitely doesn't, and it's a no-brainer why, it's crowded as heck.

~~~
MichaelGG
The author explicitly mentioned enjoying a site in New Orleans.

~~~
selimthegrim
I would give Delachaise (New Orleans) props as somewhere that tries and mostly
succeeds at this vibe. They are a bit more sealed off from the street than I'd
like, though.

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peloton
Ray Oldenburg wrote the influential book about this topic.
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_place](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_place)

I read it years ago so I'm less familiar with how it's viewed today (with the
rise of virtual third places).

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davidw
I'm always happy to take people out for a drink here in Padova, where there
are a number of great places downtown. I would really, really miss the city
center here were I ever to move back to the US.

~~~
davidw
I'll add something to this: you can serve alcohol in sidewalk cafe's here in
Italy, something I did not say mentioned in the article. Alcohol usually has
very good margins, which provides part of the economics for everything.

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hnriot
Cafe du Soleil & Bean There in SF's Lower Haight get it right. Steiner is a
good street for a sidewalk cafe, trees, wide sidewalk and victorian houses.

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ejain
Too many homeless people on the sidewalks?

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mladenkovacevic
Because it's full of Americans.

~~~
gaius
I know you're being facetious, but it's not an unreasonable point. All
attempts to create a pavement cafe culture here in the UK have failed, 24-hr
licensing to serve alcohol turned out to be a mistake. The British simply
don't drink in the same way as the Italians. We like pubs, _not_ bars or
cafes-that-serve-wine.

You might as well write an article wondering why you can't bring an American
"spring break" drinking culture to France...

~~~
mladenkovacevic
Right that's what I was trying to convey in my lazy comment. It's not about
architecture, weather or whatever else. Americans just generally aren't
interested in sipping coffee while people-watching or exchanging political,
religious cultural views with anyone less than an intimate friend for a couple
of hours out of the day. Their cultural DNA simply lacks the propensity for
that kind of activity.

Americans unwind in one of two extreme ways: individual reclusive zen retreats
or challenges (yoga, spa treatments, rock-climbing..) or over-the-top social
interactions (heavy drinking gatherings, fancy dinner parties, themed events).

Sure there are exceptions as some have mentioned, but they don't make up
enough of a critical mass for it to have a meaningful impact on the culture as
a whole.

~~~
saraid216
You're mistaking effect for cause. Americans aren't interested because they've
been acculturated not to.

~~~
malyk
Exactly. And we've built an environment where it's not possible or not
pleasant to build these types of places.

