
Black boys don’t need more discipline, they need mentors (2018) - rmason
https://educationpost.org/black-boys-dont-need-more-discipline-they-need-mentors/
======
mmsimanga
I can't read the article seems have suffered HN effect. Speaking as a black
man in Africa which is somewhat different to the US I do agree with the title.
Africa is different because the first educated generation is my parents
generation who are 70+. Off course they are exceptions. My parents who were
teachers coming from pure village setup didn't have any mentors. No one
explained mortgage to them, they learnt that in school but no uncle,
grandparent, cousin or anyone in their circle had ever had a mortgage. It was
a new world to them. That generation did well. They lived the village
principles, spent a lot of money educating whole villages and taking care of
everyone because they the ones who worked. My parents couldn't teach me about
money, they don't understand that debt is okay as long as you have a plan to
pay it back. In their mind it is a bad idea. I have thus grown up risk averse
and it took a long long time to understand how the business world works. Its
fine though because you cannot learn these things in one generation. I am
generalising but most of my peers don't understand VC funding and startups. My
daughter will definitely have a much better understanding of the world as I
can pass onto her. These things take generations. Extremely few businesses
have been run by African's from one generation to the next. The world is
changing, our grandparents were subsistence farmers, our parents were born in
villages and still had cows and we were born in cities and towns. A fair
number of my generation don't know what to do with a cow and my child's
generation are born in town to parents who are professionals as in IT
developers, lawyers, accountants and so on.

~~~
badrabbit
FWIW, I strongly believe debt is never ok. It can be ok in the same way a
hospital surgery is ok (you have no choice). Mortgages are not sustainable
either. Just because the practice has been popularized in the west for
centuries,it does not make it a sound practice.

It is possible to buy a house with money you saved. This also makes a lot of
sense when the house will be passed on to the next generation (like it is done
in africa).

Debt is spending your future cashflow for short term gains. Cash
flow/liquidity is much more important than equity and net wealth(short term).
I'm sure you know the old principle of "being poor is expensive" and "you need
money to make money". Debt takes away your liquidity, the small things/"broken
windows" you will always need to care for become neglected. Unplanned
emergencies ruin your plans,etc...

At a national level, you should know how many african nations have borrowed
endlessly and still gotten nowhere. Even after debts are forgiven and stable
peacful times last decades.

Accepting debt is accepting a parasite. Havig a plan to pay it off is
essentially saying you have a plan to kill the parasite before it kills you.
Similar to how people think "it's ok, I can quit" before getting hooked on
drugs.

YMMV.

~~~
austhrow743
>Debt is spending your future cashflow for short term gains.

No, debt is spending your future cashflow to increase your future cash flow.

>"you need money to make money"

Yes. This is where debt comes in.

>Debt takes away your liquidity

No it increases it. Debt lets you turn an illiquid asset like a building or
accounts receivable in to immediate cash.

~~~
badrabbit
> No, debt is spending your future cashflow to increase your future cash flow.

No, with debt you gain capital now. Future cashflow is not guaranteed oe even
expected in most cases (e.g.:how will a mortgage generate future cashflow?
Rent your house,hope future rent value is higher?). You might get more
cashflow in the future if your debt was for a good investment. But even then,
until you pay off the debt, your future cashflow will have your debt payments
subtracted from it, even if you have positive cashflow after that, your
argument only makes sense if the that cash flow is more than your existing
cashflow (possible but rare).

There is a big difference between calculated debt made for a business
investment and debt (however calculated) made to aquire equity or to afford
goods and services.

> Yes. This is where debt comes in.

No, this is where revenue stream comes in. For a salary man, this means
getting promotions and saving up. For a business person, this means making
profits and increasing profit margins. In both cases what you can "afford" is
liquid cash , not loans.

> No it increases it. Debt lets you turn an illiquid asset like a building or
> accounts receivable in to immediate cash

It does turn it into cash, but you're getting into debt to spend that
liquidity right away. Who gets into debt for long term liquidity? If your
business is modeled to grow then you should see increasing profit margins over
time, this profit is what should sustainably provide liquidity. Your future
decisions are not made in fear of missing bank payments. You will always need
more cash, so whatever revenue you will make in the future will always go to
banks since you're always getting into debt (unless you have remarkable
discipline). If you get into debt because an unexpected event requires you to
have more immediate liquidity than what you have, I think that's fine. But my
position is that you shouldn't plan on getting into debt from the begining.

~~~
austhrow743
Not interested in discussing consumer debt. Poster made it clear he was
talking about learning how the business world works.

No leveraging with debt is not rare. Every small business owner I know uses
debt. Some quick googling tells me the average for small businesses is $200k
in the US.

You don't need remarkable discipline to manage it. It's pretty simple math.
Fear doesn't need to come in to it. I'm not recommending everyone go out and
redline their company with a ridiculous gearing ratio.

------
kumarski
3 things that are noticeable about black people in America.

* They weren't really allowed viable property access until the last 50 years or so. 100's of years of catch up to make up for.

* Accumulating disadvantage of fatherless and motherless households.

* The blast radius of municipal violations disproportionately afflicts black people in the USA.

Not saying I like these things, but they're core problems.

~~~
fallous
I'm unsure what you mean by "viable property access," but blacks owned some
14% of farms in the US and around 15M acres of land (not all agricultural)
around the turn of the 20th century. Sadly that has shrunk to around 8M acres
today.

There is no doubt that the accumulating disadvantages of single parent
households (or worse) have had a terrible and disproportionate impact on
blacks in the US. Unfortunately that is a much more recent phenomenon give
that prior to 1960 the percentage of black children born to unwed mothers was
sub-20% but now exceeds 70%. Current rates for white children are around 30%
and only Asian children still enjoy a sub-20% unwed mother birthrate.

I'm not clear what "municipal violations" are in this context but certainly
would appreciate further clarification especially as they pertain to the black
community.

~~~
bsanr2
> blacks owned some 14% of farms in the US and around 15M acres of land (not
> all agricultural) around the turn of the 20th century. Sadly that has shrunk
> to around 8M acres today.

This was not an accident.

[https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2019/09/this-
la...](https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2019/09/this-land-was-our-
land/594742/)

[https://www.revealnews.org/episodes/losing-
ground/](https://www.revealnews.org/episodes/losing-ground/)

------
pm90
> Although they may have a different set of circumstances, the overall
> experience for Black boys in public schools is similar across the country,
> so it’s not just the color of my skin that allows me to relate, it’s also a
> shared perspective and a mutual respect.

This is both unsurprising and depressing. I am not sure if I have anything to
say except that I feel incredibly sad that other human beings living today
have to face such incredibly challenging circumstances.

------
fersho311
About me: I'm asian, 32 years old.

Throughout my childhood, I always thought Black people seemed so cool and
funny. They exude confidence and it intimidated my to make friends with them.

Now I teach people coding before and after my work as a full time software
engineer. A few of my students are black. I had a hard time working with them.

Later, as I became friends with them, I realized they are very self conscious
about their intelligence. (I know I'm generalizing here, but 100% of the black
students I mentored felt this way). I realized my asian background and hyper-
competitiveness and high expectations made the situation worse. This
realization completely changed me as a person.

This eventually let to me starting a coding bootcamp at our public library and
I try to create an environment to make students feel safe and not judged. I
don't have this down to a process yet, if anyone knows please let me know. How
does one create a safe environment so students showing up will feel
emotionally safe enough to start asking questions without fear of being
judged?

Say we measure the time from when a student walks in to the time when he/she
starts asking questions whenever they have a question. Are there any
activities to do that can reduce the comfort time to the minimum?

~~~
crimsonalucard
I wonder why a lot of asians have this racial inferiority complex. I (being
asian myself) grew up in an affluent asian dominated neighborhood of
Cupertino. I had black, white and asian friends growing up and I never thought
too much of racial issues. Maybe because in my schools asian americans were
largely the majority. Again, I had the same experience going to school at UCLA
which was largely populated mostly by asians.

However coming back to the bay area a decade later and making a lot of friends
with local asians who grew up in San Francisco I am seeing huge racial
inferiority complexes among asian males and females.

It's disgustingly huge. Among asian males racism manifests itself as hatred
against white people for their white privilege and they talk openly about
being scared of black people because they're all criminals. It's nuts. Note
that this attitude mostly manifests itself among the native asian SF crowd who
grew up here, not the tech migrants from outside of the city.

The other thing is racism manifests itself differently among asian females in
the most pathetic display of inferiority I have ever seen in my life. The
majority of single asian females in SF prefer dating white people over their
own race. It's not even a superficial taste fetish either, literally a huge
amount of asian females view their own race as too inferior and too weak to
date. I don't know whether to blame the asian males or asian females for this
level of patheticism.

I read posts from asians above and I'm astonished... I'm literally thinking
what planet is this guy from? Then I realize that I'm from cupertino, I'm the
guy who grew up on a different planet.

~~~
KoftaBob
I've never understood this argument regarding dating outside of one's ethnic
group. The effects of actual racism is one ethnic group benefits at the
expense of one or more other groups. What you're describing is something else
entirely.

Who's getting harmed when Asian women have a preference for white men when
dating? Who cares? To each their own, no? Are you implying there's some
maximum percentage of women that can prefer another ethnic group when dating,
and anything above that is problematic?

Edit: I should've specified that I'm talking explicitly about their commentary
on asian women's dating patterns, not anything else in their comment.

~~~
codinger
>they talk openly about being scared of black people because they're all
criminals.

You don't think there isn't anything racist about that? You have a strange
definition of racism.

~~~
KoftaBob
I was specifically replying to their commentary on Asian women's dating
preferences. I should've been more clear.

------
esotericn
Though I imagine the prevalence is much higher in black youth, this is a
general issue that goes beyond race.

A stable upbringing with a family that you can use as role models. If you
don't have that, you're in for an uphill struggle.

If everyone around you is unemployed, or works in part time unskilled labour -
if you're moving from home to home all of the time - if you have no bedroom -
if your family argues, or you don't have proper food so your blood sugar is
all over the place - these are tremendous things to overcome in isolation
never mind all at the same time.

People talk about 'privilege' in upbringing because it's actually kind of rare
to have a functional family.

This is what the class system really is. Some people can jump the gap after
their formative years, but most people are going to be stuck in those patterns
if they've spent 20 years in the trenches.

I grew up in a poor family; my father left when I was young. The one thing we
had (aside from the absolute warrior-woman of my mother), provided by the
government back in the day, was a council house. A low rent secure tenancy. So
whilst everything else was a struggle, my mother was able to provide a
relatively stable housing situation for us.

Without that I'm sure I would be a complete fuck-up now.

~~~
cmdshiftf4
>Though I imagine the prevalence is much higher in black youth, this is a
general issue that goes beyond race.

It certainly does. I'm having trouble digging up primary sources I've read on
this before (there's a ton of secondary by searching "Consequences of
fatherless childhoods", "consequences of single-parent households" and similar
on DuckDuckGo), but studies are showing that children being brought up in
single-parent or "fragile" households fare worse than their counterparts
brought up in two-parent, comparatively stable households.

The issue is likely significantly compounding generation after generation.
It's not really a surprise that children need a stable household with good
role models at the helm though, and the absence of which being damaging.

~~~
taurath
It’s better to have no role models than negative role models that stick around
and make things worse, in a lot of cases.

------
n_t
Every child deserves a good mentor, but I believe that black kids (not just
boys but girls too) urgently need an idol to emulate. Most kids I interact
with (a very small subset) seem to idolize pop stars, who are talented but
mostly are bad role models. Black community must produce likes of MLK, who
prove the point through their life and not just by words. Obama, despite
divided opinion among Americans, I feel is a good contemporary role model for
black kids.

------
ChrisMarshallNY
This guy sounds great, and I hope that he is allowed to continue doing his
great work. The fact that he has the position that he has, speaks volumes for
the school district. I don't think my (affluent, painfully white suburban)
school district has the same.

I feel that mentorship isn't just restricted to someone officially appointed
to the position. It's pretty much anyone that has a weighted relationship to
anyone (not just kids). That includes spouses, parents, relatives, older
siblings, peers, teachers, cops, insurance adjustors, union shop stewards, DMV
clerks, and, of course, bosses.

For example, corporate culture comes from the top. It almost doesn't matter
what the corporate values statement says. I believe that the _behavior_ of the
C-suite is the single biggest driver of corporate culture.

I've learned that I need to model the values I'd like others to exhibit. It's
not a guarantee that they will, but it improves the odds.

~~~
RickJWagner
I was also thinking "I hope this guy continues his good work, and lots of
others join him."

------
mcdramamean
I'll just leave this here: [https://socialequity.duke.edu/wp-
content/uploads/2019/10/wha...](https://socialequity.duke.edu/wp-
content/uploads/2019/10/what-we-get-wrong.pdf)

The wealth disparity between African Americans and the rest of America is
growing. Mentorship is fine, but what most African Americans need is access to
resources and stable community (which was destroyed through many years of
Social Engineering).

~~~
akimball
In particular, Nixon started the war on drugs to take down black people.

------
SubiculumCode
Boys generally need more mentors. I honestly believe that boys educational
results would be much improved if taught under a mentor-ship hierarchy, rather
than flat classroom organizations.

------
remarkEon
Lest anyone be confused by what this is arguing, it seems to say that the
_kind_ of discipline offered by mentors is not the same as just "punishing"
bad behavior - perhaps colloquially known as "discipline". Having greater
discipline to express your feelings, especially negative ones, to a positive
direction is good advice. And _that_ is what the benefit of having good male
role models for young men is all about.

------
maxaf
Or, you know, fathers.

Half of success in fatherhood comes from simply showing up. Absentee fathers
contribute to the generational erosion of the family fabric that is almost
impossible to undo.

~~~
jenkins6g
Agreed, but as a black man who grew up fatherless be mindful why black fathers
are absent. Many times it's not by choice. There were and still are
intentional systems in place to make it difficult for fathers to get jobs,
stay within the prison system, and have access to quality education. I urge
people commenting to ask their black friends for their insights. I came from
an inner city and graduated from CMU. The two worlds are stark and mind
blowing. But in the end, more mentors at an early age can help break the
cycle. That's how you can play your part.

~~~
trentnix
I struggle to buy this line of thinking that, somehow, the epidemic of single-
parent (and no parent) households among blacks (or any ethnic or economic
group) is the consequence of discriminatory systems or conspiracy or racism.
Such systems of discrimination surely aren't more powerful now than when the
government was enforcing Jim Crow, when schools were segregated by force, when
the Ku Klux Klan was not only active but had active members sitting in
Congress, and when academics openly claimed that non-whites were inferior to
whites and proposed eugenic 'solutions'. Those horrible blights on American
(and Western) society have mostly been buried yet the numbers of black
children growing up without a father has exploded. Whatever contribution
systemic racism, institutional racism, conscious bias, unconscious bias, etc.
(which I concede are real things) have on health of the family unit within
black American culture, something else is clearly doing the lion's share of
destruction.

Additionally, I'm suspicious when I hear the 'system' being blamed because
it's a convenient scapegoat. Stuff like our code didn't work not because our
programmers wrote bad software, but because our process is broken. Those FISA
warrants that were granted because FBI agents and lawyers lied need to be
fixed with 'better safeguards'. Or those banks get taxpayer bailouts and
nobody goes to jail because there wasn't sufficient regulation to prevent
systematic fraud and excessive risk-taking. Nobody has to be embarrassed for
their own behavior or held responsible for their own actions when the
nameless, faceless system gets the arrows.

If you want to talk about real privilege, it's the privilege of growing up in
a healthy family unit. The greatest advantage I've ever received was a loving
father and mother who were there to provide support, instruction, and
discipline. All children - everywhere - deserve and desperately need good,
loving, present parents. It breaks my heart that's become the exception and
not the rule.

~~~
bsanr2
>Such systems of discrimination surely aren't more powerful now

How do you figure? Is it easier or harder to fight discrimination in, say,
employment when, "We don't hire negroes," is stated upfront, compared to when
black applicants are denied for "cultural fit" reasons?

>something else is clearly doing the lion's share of destruction.

Again, how do you figure?

~~~
trentnix
>How do you figure? Is it easier or harder to fight discrimination in, say,
employment when, "We don't hire negroes," is stated upfront, compared to when
black applicants are denied for "cultural fit" reasons?

 _Everywhere_ I've worked professionally I've had black coworkers.
_Everywhere_ I've hired considered and hired black applicants. I've had black
supervisors. I've had black colleagues. I've had black reports. And this is
true of virtually every professional environment I've interacted with, at
least here in the South.

This most certainly wouldn't have been the case in 1950. And that confirms
that such discriminatory systems aren't more powerful now than they were in
generations past.

Really, I think claims to the contrary are absurd on their face.

~~~
bsanr2
I don't think you fully answered either of my questions. I appreciate that
your limited personal experience is closer to what we would like to see, at
least in your telling of it.

I still await your further thoughts.

~~~
trentnix
It appears I can't answer your questions to your satisfaction. I live in the
deep South. I provided my (not limited) experience and exposure to
professional environments as evidence. And that experience, and the
application of Occam's razor, tells me your claims that bias and racism is
_more effective_ now that it is comparatively invisible is absurd.

~~~
bsanr2
You could answer this question:

>Is it easier or harder to fight discrimination in, say, employment when, "We
don't hire negroes," is stated upfront, compared to when black applicants are
denied for "cultural fit" reasons?

And expound upon this assertion:

>something else is clearly doing the lion's share of destruction.

~~~
trentnix
>You could answer this question:

>>Is it easier or harder to fight discrimination in, say, employment when, "We
don't hire negroes," is stated upfront, compared to when black applicants are
denied for "cultural fit" reasons? You are begging the question. Of course
it's easier to fight enemies who are out in the open, distinct, and
widespread. And it's harder to fight enemies that are well-camouflaged. But
it's also harder to fight enemies that are partially imagined, distorted, and
sometimes nonexistent.

I take issue with your insinuation, as I tried to illustrate in my anecdote,
that discrimination where black applicants are denied for "cultural fit"
reasons, is widespread.

>And expound upon this assertion:

>>something else is clearly doing the lion's share of destruction.

It's pretty simple, really. If one concludes that discrimination isn't as
prevalent as it was decades ago and has diminished as time has passed while
also noticing that its attributed consequences are more prevalent, then it's
reasonable to assume something else is to blame.

~~~
bsanr2
>Of course it's easier to fight enemies who are out in the open, distinct, and
widespread. And it's harder to fight enemies that are well-camouflaged.

Thank you for answering the question.

>I take issue with your insinuation, as I tried to illustrate in my anecdote,
that discrimination where black applicants are denied for "cultural fit"
reasons, is widespread.

On what basis? I recognize your anecdote, and its anecdotal nature. I'd like
you to look beyond your personal experience and justify your opinion with
something verifiable.

>If one concludes that discrimination isn't as prevalent as it was decades ago
and has diminished as time has passed while also noticing that its attributed
consequences are more prevalent, then it's reasonable to assume something else
is to blame

As this conclusion seems premature, it would be helpful to suggest what else
there is to blame.

------
jeegsy
Strictly speaking 103 to 17 referrals is a heck of an improvement but to still
have 17 referrals is a head shaker.

------
neonate
[https://web.archive.org/web/20190330065728/https://education...](https://web.archive.org/web/20190330065728/https://educationpost.org/black-
boys-dont-need-more-discipline-they-need-mentors/)

------
jbaham
There is a lot of debate going on as to the root cause of this problem, but
that time has long passed. There is an organization in New Orleans that is
taking action. If you would like to take action then please consider
volunteering, or donatin. www.sonofasaint.org

------
crankylinuxuser
This gets into a much larger issue of policing intersectioning with darker
skinned peoples in the US.

When many of the dads are arrested in jail or prison, obviously they aren't
being mentors. And they aren't permitted to be in their childrens' lives. And
much of this is overpolicing and overcriminialization. Add this to sentences
being worse, and it's unsurprising it happens. We as a nation are setting the
situation, then surprised it happened.

And the cycle repeats.

~~~
lopmotr
Or underpolicing. Blacks are at much higher risk of being the victim of
violent crime than whites. Even the boy in the article's brother was murdered.
Lack of security means people take it into their own hands and you get violent
gangs and/or a harmful honor based society.

~~~
jmull
I'm pretty sure the previous poster is mainly referring to the criminalization
of low-level drug use and the heavily racially biased enforcement of it.

You're talking about the heavily racially biased under-
enforcement/implementation of laws and programs to reduce violent crime.

Just highlighting that a racial bias in the criminal justice system is the
common theme. Not that you weren't making the same point, it just didn't seem
clear to me one way or the other.

Here are some nice stats if anyone wants some numbers to chew on:
[https://www.naacp.org/criminal-justice-fact-
sheet/](https://www.naacp.org/criminal-justice-fact-sheet/)

------
Pywarrior
mentors to instill discipline?

~~~
war1025
I think what you are hitting up against here is that the "discipline" you are
referring to refers to structure and accountability for their choices.

The "discipline" referred to by the article more often boils down to
punishment for misdeeds.

One form builds up a person into a better version of themselves. The other is
intended to break the spirit of the person and make them submissive.

~~~
bittercynic
This is a super important point, and I've never seen it expressed more
clearly. Unfortunately, many adults who are responsible for caring for
children do not seem to understand that distinction, or they are too
overwhelmed and spread too thin to apply that knowledge effectively.

------
bsanr2
As much as HN's readers need to see articles like this, I don't know if the
sophistication levels on this topic are high enough to handle the discussion
that's ensued.

"Or, you know, fathers," is a... disappointing take, to say the least.

~~~
Strang
What did you find disappointing about the comment? Why not reply to it?

~~~
bsanr2
It was meant to be exemplary of the tone of the comment section writ large,
and not a direct challenge to that particular comment. I'm dismayed that the
level of discourse here matches, approximately, those on certain imageboards
which shall not be named. That is to say, for their expertise in technical
discussions, HN commenters seem to be woefully unprepared for those related to
race and society, on a basic data level.

------
brenden2
Probably applies to all children, not just those with specific genetic
attributes.

~~~
pm90
True in principle, but the difference is that the children with certain
genetic attributes tend to get this kind of support while others don't.

~~~
humanrebar
There are plenty of boys stuck in intergenerational poverty and dysfunction
all across the spectrum of genetic attributes. You can't tell a neglected boy
that _statistically_ he is well nurtured and has good role models.

~~~
pm90
> You can't tell a neglected boy that statistically he is well nurtured and
> has good role models.

Nobody will. Literally nobody said that.

When talking about assistance programs to the needy, we consider statistical
data in order to target the most needy. So eg the result is providing funding
for these programs in minority heavy schools.

~~~
humanrebar
The lowest income counties are generally rural:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_lowest-
income_counties...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_lowest-
income_counties_in_the_United_States)

Though I don't know why it needs to be a competition. The content in the
article is good for people to consider for the boys they care about in their
lives. The biggest difference most people make isn't becoming convinced about
policy positions but in how they engage with their loved ones and local
communities.

------
kypro
A few things here:

> It is important for mentors and others looking to implement solutions for
> Black students to come from within our own communities. Studies have shown
> that students do better in class and have less disruptive behaviour when
> educators look like them, and mentorship is no exception.

Well this completely goes against the narrative that more diversity in schools
is good. If people are literally biologically wired to be racist (at least in
some sense of the word) and now people are advocating that blacks are taught
by blacks and whites are taught by whites as a solution to the diversity
problem then that's a little worrying.

On a more controversial note though, I also wonder why we expect peoples who
have evolved separately for thousands of years with significant genetic
variations to preform equally. There was an article by the New York Times
recently that discuses why Ashkenazi Jews tend to perform out preform
academically: [https://www.nytimes.com/2019/12/27/opinion/jewish-culture-
ge...](https://www.nytimes.com/2019/12/27/opinion/jewish-culture-genius-
iq.html)

Unfortunately from the reading I've done on this topic, it does seem the
author is probably right that there is a genetic element to all of this.
Obviously it's not what people want to hear and the author was predictably
slammed for writing it, but most intelligence researchers would agree that
genetic plays a large role in intelligence and again, unfortunately, not all
groups preform equally.

It does seem possible that part of the explanation as to why Whites and Blacks
under preform East Asians and Ashkenazi Jews academically is simply genetics.
And if that's the case, do we allow the best to rise to the top, or do we
discriminate against Jews and Asians as the author proposes by segregating
education or, as something universities do, discriminate against applicants
based on race.

I'm sure I'll get down voted for but this won't get better until we start
recognising and addressing certain realities.

------
download13
A society that doesn't shit on them in a hundred little ways each day might
help too...

------
JetBen
I think Boondocks, a cartoon about black boys that was written and drawn by a
black boy, most accurately illustrates (pun!) the desired solution for black
mentorship. Grandpa Robert Freeman literally fills this role for his two
grandkids, especially with Riley. Uncle Ruckus offers an even better example.
Maybe we should look to this show for guidance on the issue.

~~~
selimthegrim
Uncle Ruckus is not a role model (to borrow from Charles Barkley)

~~~
JetBen
On that, we disagree.

------
hogFeast
Funnily enough, the UK had this problem about fifteen years ago.

Everyone was wringing their hands madly and talking about things like
mentorship, and how the education system was inherently racist (and,
unfortunately, always making implications about how white people were all
racist and this was a deliberate outcome) or certain groups apparently having
no fathers.

Fifteen years later, and black kids are more than twice as likely to go to
university as white kids...funnily enough, if you mention race when you talk
about this now...you get called a racist (it turns out, some people just
really think race is the only thing that matters).

Either way, stop talking about race. It doesn't help. It is incredibly
disempowering to have someone supposedly help you by constantly bringing up
the fact you are different. And, shock, if you do this and things improve
those children never stop banging on about race and think everything is rigged
against them (in the UK, there is no black wage gap...if you mention this, you
will get excoriated). Definitely, culture does matter (this just has no
relation to race though) but if you create an environment of success then this
can be overcome.

The US is the archtypical example of how not to do things. Six decades into
civil rights, and the same people are still banging on and on about the same
stuff (I will get trashed for this but in the US, this kind of grief mongering
has almost become an industry in itself...you can see why it will never end,
the vested interests are too powerful).

~~~
DanBC
Your points would be more believable if you supported them with reliable
sources.

For example, this says that there is an ethnicity wage gap:
[https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peopleinwor...](https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peopleinwork/earningsandworkinghours/articles/ethnicitypaygapsingreatbritain/2018)

Figure Four of that link (which allows you to clicky to remove different
groups) clearly shows that "White British" have a higher median hourly rate
than "Black, African, Caribbean, or Black British".

The picture for university attendance is a lot more complex. Prestigious
universities are not accepting black students:
[https://www.timeshighereducation.com/news/russell-group-
univ...](https://www.timeshighereducation.com/news/russell-group-universities-
unfairly-rejecting-ethnic-minority-students)

And black students appear to drop out of university at higher rates, partially
because of the racism they face.

The UK has a serious problem with racism.

~~~
hogFeast
There isn't an ethnicity wage gap. If you look at data from the Low Wage
Commission rather than ONS data (or indeed, any academic work on this) it is
very clear (i.e. data that actually uses proper independent variables and
looks at within-occupation differentials...the issue with the data reported by
the BBC is that the model is underspecified and the unexplained variance is
all attributed to racism...this defies logic).

Btw, it is very clear that some ethnic minorities are underpaid and excluded
from certain occupations (i.e. they are underpaid within occupation, aren't
promoted, and are excluded from occupations systemically)...but it is
Pakastani/Bangladeshi, not blacks.

What racism? There is evidence that the UK is one of the most racially
tolerant societies in Europe and comparable with any other developed country
(admittedly, Europe is not a good comparison because of the prevalence of
intolerance there) -
[https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fsoc.2019.00012...](https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fsoc.2019.00012/full)

I will say that I have observed a definite change of attitude by black
students however. I went to the university local to me, there are a huge
number of non-white students (majority in some faculties) and I have never
observed any problem ever (discussing race or nationality would make no sense
to any of the students there). The Afro-Carribean society (one, btw, that has
always had white members) held an event where white people were banned from
attending (again, not just non-black...specifically white) on the subject of
resisting white culture. This is a Russell Group uni that you need 3As for in
almost every course. This is the result of hammering the idea of racism and
inferiority into one group and repeatedly telling them that other people think
they are less than. The idea that this is reducing intolerance is quite
contrary to all the evidence.

Btw, it is kind of funny that the UK has a solution for this problem...it
works...and no-one is interested. The only thing you seem to care about is
more identity wars, more conflict, more hate.

~~~
DanBC
> If you look at data from the Low Wage Commission rather than ONS data

If you're rejecting the Office for National Statistics there's not much I can
do. These are robust and reliable stats with detailed information about method
and limitation.

Do you mean the Low Pay Commission?

Can you link to their report, because I can't find it.

The only report I could find from them is this, which disagrees with your
point.

[https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/...](https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/747546/ethnicity-
pay-reporting-consultation.pdf)

> Once in work, evidence shows that people from ethnic minorities progress
> less far and earn less money than their white counterparts. Baroness
> McGregor-Smith led an independent review of the issues faced by businesses
> in developing ethnic minority talent from recruitment through to executive
> level. Race in the Workplacereported a number of areas of concern at the
> time:

Here's the Equality and Human Rights Commission Report, but that supports my
point that black people are paid less than white people in the UK. (Page 29
median wage)
[https://www.equalityhumanrights.com/sites/default/files/rese...](https://www.equalityhumanrights.com/sites/default/files/research-
report-108-the-ethnicity-pay-gap.pdf)

Or there's this research:
[https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/pdf/10.1177/095001701244509...](https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/pdf/10.1177/0950017012445095)

> Research repeatedly demonstrates significant ethnic labour market
> disparities in Britain. While some groups do better than the white British
> majority, Pakistanis, Bangladeshis and black Africans suffer higher rates of
> unemployment, lower occupational status and lower earnings (Berthoud, 2000;
> Heath and Cheung, 2006; Heath and McMahon, 1997; Platt, 2005). Such ethnic
> penalties remain even after controlling statistically for indi-vidual
> differences, for instance in respect of education.

> What racism?

> there are a huge number of non-white students

You appear to be splitting people into "white" and "non-white", and then
looking at the non-white group as a whole. That's not a good idea because it
causes you to come to incorrect conclusions.

