
'Coerced into tipping'? How apps are changing the culture of tipping in SF - mbgaxyz
https://www.sfgate.com/food/article/Coerced-into-tipping-How-apps-are-changing-the-13164536.php
======
dgzl
I propose that we petition Congress to repeal this law:

"Tipping again changed in the 1960s, when Congress agreed that workers could
receive a lower minimum wage if a portion of their salary came from tips. The
minimum wage for tipped workers is $2.13, which has not changed in over 20
years, as long as those workers receive at least $7.25 in tips per hour. Saru
Jayaraman, author of Behind the Kitchen Door, explains that a minimum wage of
$2.13 means that their full wage will go toward taxes and forces tipped
workers to live off their tips." [1]

[1] [https://www.tripsavvy.com/a-brief-history-of-
tipping-1329249](https://www.tripsavvy.com/a-brief-history-of-tipping-1329249)

~~~
matthewowen
As a point of information: there is no reduced minimum wage for tipped workers
in California.

Wait staff etc must still receive full minimum wage in addition to any tips
they receive.

~~~
RickS
I don't think that changes the expectations on the waitstaff side, or the
sense of obligation on the tippers' side.

The mountain that needs to be climbed here is about narrative/social norms,
not real economics.

Unfortunately I think that bigger than shifting social norms will be shifting
customer price expectations. If you kill tipping, expect wages to go up, even
in CA, as staff expect (and perhaps legitimately require) a certain level of
income, regardless of origin.

It's a little like subsidized gas. The US has been underpaying for gas for so
long that I've got no idea what political martyr would try to put that cat in
the bag. When a market distortion lasts so long it becomes part of the social
fabric, it's real hard to just kill off.

I'd love to hear about times countries have been able to pull this off at
scale.

~~~
CoreDumpling
Norway and Singapore tax the crap out of cars and are still doing fine.

~~~
cameronh90
While I fully support taxing the crap out of cars, Singapore and the USA are
hardly comparable. It's the third most densely populated country on earth, and
you can walk the circumference of the entire island in about a day. Not even
factoring in the comprehensive public transit..

~~~
lostctown
This can't be stressed enough. Large swaths of the US population would
immediately become immobile. I think OP has never lived and worked in a rural
area, say 30 miles outside of the nearest town, where survival depends on your
ability to transport yourself.

~~~
eivindga
Great point!

Except that the population density of the US is almost double that of Norway.
(We definitely have our share of rural areas...)

[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_and_depend...](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_and_dependencies_by_population_density)

~~~
maxerickson
The density people live at is the interesting figure.

Of course it's quite high in the US, what with the population being
concentrated on the coasts.

------
jjeaff
I am frustrated with articles like this that keep pushing a higher and higher
"acceptable" tip percentage.

20% is not normal. 20% is very high for very good service.

15 years ago, 15% was normal. Now the minimum on these pos pos's is 18.

I tip 15% and no more unless service was well above normal.

And I have no qualms about hitting 0 for anything that isn't sit down service,
including Uber and Lyft.

We have to fight this tip creep or we will live in a world where every service
employee is paid with 100% tips by those that feel guilty enough to pay it
while all the cheapskates freeload.

~~~
pmiller2
What’s your Uber/Lyft rating these days? I imagine it’s not good if you don’t
tip.

~~~
marssaxman
How would one know such a thing?

The absence of tipping was one of the big advantages uber and lyft offered
over conventional cabs when they first came along, and I've stuck with it; I'm
not going to tip.

If that eventually gets me blackballed so I have to go back to old-fashioned
cabs, well... perhaps I'm not missing out on much.

------
smallnamespace
Defaults matter.

If the 'default' tip on the app is 15% or 20%, then you need to make an
affirmative choice to not tip. Yes, you can (usually) opt out, but the screen
is telling you in no uncertain terms that _tipping is probably a social norm
here—if you choose to opt out, you are making the extra effort to break the
norm_.

Otherwise, why bother setting the default at all rather than force the user to
enter an explicit amount every time, like on a restaurant bill?

Also, there's a whole subbranch of behavioral economics ('nudge' economics)
that basically studies how to frame choices and set defaults to influence
decision making [1]. Advertisers and politicians also take advantage of the
power of framing and defaults.

So getting back to the ethics of the issue, it'd be interesting to see data on
how much the default influences the actual tip paid, and how that incentivizes
the actual business owner (e.g. set a higher tip rate, pay a lower wage?)

[1]
[http://faculty.chicagobooth.edu/richard.thaler/research/pdf/...](http://faculty.chicagobooth.edu/richard.thaler/research/pdf/smartjpe.pdf)

~~~
AviationAtom
I like when they set the defaults even higher than 20%. I went to a Sports
Clips and the lowest default was $5 on an $18 haircut, with I think $10 being
the highest. They spend probably 20 minutes on a basic haircut. I don't think
that a 50%+ tip is reasonable.

~~~
legohead
I didn't tip my hairdresser for ~25 years. They are charging me for a haircut,
and that's all they give me. What am I tipping for? It's always the same
haircut as well, he/she never "goes out of their way" to cut my hair.

Then I learned that it's pretty much expected, so I tip "normally" now, but
feel weird about it.

~~~
w00kie
Same at a restaurant. They are charging me for food in a nice environment.
What am I tipping for? I don't want a nice conversation with my waiter.

~~~
javagram
The expectation of tipping at a restaurant exists to allow you to punish the
employee for bad service over the course of a meal by leaving a 0% tip.

It doesn’t make any sense for a counter service restaurant or other such
business that consists of a single interaction before paying, where if you
receive bad service you already know that and can just say “actually never
mind I’m going to a different place, cancel my order”.

------
hedora
I’m more annoyed about sit down restaurants that automatically add “living
wage fees” or “aca coverage costs” to bills _before_ tip.

How is this acceptable? What other industry quotes prices that don’t include
wage costs, then bill for a higher amount.

It’s particularly bad because pulling the percentage out of the tip lowers the
percentage of the amount I pay that would go to the server (vs baking the
price into the menu cost), so it’s dishonest pricing and also convoluted tip
theft.

~~~
sfRattan
I suspect the practices you describe are politically motivated advertising of
prices (and related to price discrimination).

To add on a _living wage fee_ is to imply that a lower price available at
other restaurants does not pay a living wage. This is a left of center virtue
signal: "Eat here, where we make sure our staff earn a living wage."

To add on an _ACA coverage fee_ is to imply that, without mandatory
healthcare, the restaurant could afford to give you a better price. This is a
right of center nudge toward action: "You're in favor of mandatory healthcare,
and here is what it's costing you."

Both fees are crass, tone-deaf choices but, unless the receipt literally says,
"we take this out of the tip," it isn't theft. You're irritated (reasonably)
_but are choosing to tip less, which seems like picking out the wrong party to
punish for restaurant policy._

 __Tip well __, and then tell the owner that you won 't be eating there again
because of the politically motivated fees.

~~~
lazyasciiart
> To add on a living wage fee is to imply that a lower price available at
> other restaurants does not pay a living wage. This is a left of center
> virtue signal: "Eat here, where we make sure our staff earn a living wage."

No, it isn't. It's a fee that started showing up in places like Seattle (and
probably SF) after the minimum wage was raised, as a right-of-center jerk
signal: "I would charge you less and screw my employees harder but the law
won't allow me".

~~~
sfRattan
Well, then they're both right-of-center bird flips...

My point remains the same: anyone is right to get pissed of about these fees,
_but tipping less punishes the server and not the owner who instituted the
fees._ A better solution is to tip normally, ask to speak to the owner (or a
manager), explain you will not be patronizing the business again (and why),
and then leave.

~~~
jjeaff
Agreed, I don't care what their reasons are. It still amounts to a secret,
extra charge that you did not know about until after the bill was received. If
this happened to me, and it was not clearly posted on the menu that a fee
would be added, I would absolutely refuse to pay it.

~~~
lazyasciiart
In Seattle at least, you'd be legally in the right to do so.

------
Rainymood
I hate the tipping system ("tipping") in the US. It's so forced and only
benefits the business owner. You should not have to rely on uncertain tips to
make up a minimum wage that is just stupid. Both parties keep the system
alive, someone has to break the cycle.

~~~
scarejunba
It also benefits the tipped worker because they get to see more of that
portion of their paycheck. Sales tax is never paid on tips and Income tax is
rarely, if ever, paid either.

It's just a tax exemption that we've encoded into social behaviour.

~~~
robocat
It also harms the tipped worker.

How many times have you seen a young service worker prostitute their feelings
towards some arsehole or bitch, because the worker really needed the income?

I live in a mostly tip-free country, and I am sure most front line workers
here have a lot more agency to deal with nasty customers. Although the
downside is that service staff have few ways to earn more except by changing
jobs...

------
ggm
The article explicitly addresses SF So this article is about a state which
enforces a minimum wage above the US norm for workers in tip-heavy industries.
US minimum wage is like $2.15 and federally mandated tip+wage rate is $7.25
and the Californian state wage is $10. This is functionally equivalent to
federal minimum plus 30%.

I realize the transition moment here is confronting, and with family who work
and depend on this class of labour I am completely aware of the immediate pay
consequence, but even with this,

I think Californians should grab an opportunity to walk off tip culture, and
walk into 'fair pay for work' culture.

The minimum wage is not fair? Lets support all workers for a fair minimum
wage. End tip culture.

~~~
Cogito
For the people saying that this would have unintended consequences, that may
well be the case. Somehow, the rest of the world seems to get by without the
same tipping culture.

Moving towards a fair pay for work culture may require more than just 'not
tipping', but we already have many examples where it is the case. Prices may
go up, or tax laws need to change, but just because there are thin margins in
the industry doesn't mean that the only way to survive is to force workers to
live off their tips. In so many cases it seems like tipping culture merely
serves to hide the true cost of a meal or service.

Similarly, the odd practice of not including any taxes in the sticker price on
goods. This one in particular feels anti-consumer, and seems to persist
because sellers worry that their prices, if listed including taxes, would seem
higher than the competition. I'm surprised more retailers don't buck this
trend more often; realising that taxes were included in Cafe du Monde's list
price for their coffee and biegnets made the experience even more enjoyable
than it otherwise would have been, and definitely contributed to a few of the
midnight treks I made to get that particular treat.

~~~
d1zzy
Speaking about "unintended consequences", I would like to see a study if
there's any correlation between heavy tipping culture and service quality. So
far in my travels the US has been the place where waiters are the "nicest"
while places with little tipping (but high menu pricing, ex. in Europe) I've
had mixed service quality (but generally significantly worse than in the US).

~~~
zaarn
I live in Germany, what the US tourists usually call "bad service" (because
they were being rude or not happy enough) is simply expected here. Nobody
where I live expects servers, cashiers or taxi drivers to talk to you beyond
the necessary or fake a smile, in fact, my sister worked as a server and was
told on no uncertain terms that faking a smile was an absolute no-go. (Though
this is less common in the southern European states, especially tourists
locations)

Tipping is generally only restaurants and taxis, where you simply round up to
the next 5€ or 10€ and the waiter keeps the rest.

In my experience, I find US servers very unpleasantly/uncomfortably nice/happy
while not really focusing on the service quality itself (food quality,
accuracy of order or similar).

------
corvallis
These types of systems have pushed me toward carrying cash again. After
feeling manipulated and/or guilty by the tip-requesting interface in
situations where I would not normally tip or might throw spare change in a jar
(vs the several dollars that's being solicited), I now pay in cash. It gives
me the control over the transaction that I had previous to the interfaces'
existence and I don't leave the situation with negative feelings.

~~~
starky
Why feel guilty about it at all? Up here in Canada we have had pin validated
transactions for a long time now, and the terminals have had tip prompts at
least since we switched to chip and pin. It is just a reflex now when ordering
at a counter to select "$ tip" and hit enter for zero tip. Annoying, but when
every place seems to do it, it is easy to get over the feelings of
manipulation and guilt.

~~~
corvallis
1) I don't like feeling manipulated, regardless of if I am able to get over
it. It's still a negative experience.

2) I belong to an ethnic minority that stereotypically does not tip well
(though I don't see this in practice with others of my ethnic group). I don't
want any judgment of me or my ethnic group based on if the person handing me
my donut figures out, either by looking or by watching my hand motions,
whether I tipped.

3) I don't doubt your description of the interface. I experience a similar
interface. If I have to be prompted for a tip, then have to decline, then feel
manipulated and have to expend mental energy to "get over it" (as you say),
have to think about how I'm representing my ethnic group, and contemplate my
role in the socioeconomic inequality present between myself and the people in
the service industry (as mentioned elsewhere in these comments), well then I'm
going to reduce that to a 2 step process where I hand over cash and receive my
purchase.

------
blacksqr
It seems to me that tipping has evolved from an incentive and reward for good
service to a form of voluntary workfare where those who have something to
spare decide to share with those still struggling in the low end of the
service economy.

~~~
exacube
yes! tipping is like a naturally occuring form of redistrbution of wealth in
capitalist countries :) I personally view the evolution of tipping culture as
positive on the whole. and also, I think people tend to tip a bit higher if
they feel good about the service, so it still incentivizes good service. When
I visit Europe, I am reminded how nice the service industry in America is.

~~~
KyeRussell
Or you could just have a living minimum wage, lol.

~~~
exacube
yes, if the government could manage to pass a good law there :) but in the
event that the government won't, tipping helps correct the situation.

~~~
jwfxpr
Or it can be argued that tipping offers those who control the means to change
the law (the elected lawmakers) the excuse they need not to.

------
freditup
I am confused as to why it's standard to tip some low-paid workers but not
others:

* Fast-food workers do just as much work as coffee shop employees, why not tip them?

* Workers at clothing stores take the time to fold your clothes nicely and box/bag them for you - why not tip them?

* Grocery store checkout clerks in the city carefully bag up your goods so you can carry them with just two hands - why not tip them?

* The guy collecting trash from the streets to keep them clean is helping everyone, why not tip him?

It does seem at some point the tipping system will grow so large it'll
collapse in on itself. Sadly though, places that have tried to move that
direction, in NYC at least, seem to have struggled [0][1].

[0]: [https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2016/05/why-
res...](https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2016/05/why-restaurants-
walk-back-no-tipping-policies/482151/) [1]:
[http://gothamist.com/2017/10/19/danny_meyer_no_tipping.php](http://gothamist.com/2017/10/19/danny_meyer_no_tipping.php)

~~~
jldugger
FWIW, tipped workers typically work for an hourly wage lower than the minimum
wage, and are expected to earn the rest from tips. Most of the jobs you're
talking about are not in the tipping wage category, and management just has to
monitor carefully. Fast food has tons of computers to do exactly that, and
even department stores have secret shoppers and cameras to observe staff.
Grocery stores have crazy levels of cameras to monitor staff; I'd say about 70
percent of the cameras are pointed at the cashier (the remainder at you as you
wander the store to calculate dwell time and deter theft). Trash collection I
don't even know the company behind it let alone ever seen the driver. I assume
they have GPS and cameras now that communities have moved to those machine arm
trucks.

Tipping is a sort of economic hack; you the customer are responsible for
evaluating service, and punishing inept or even just lazy service. You're the
final buyer of the service, so in a way it's fair; just atypically lassiez-
faire method versus the usual social hierarchy of companies paying managers to
supervise service workers.

I figure if tipping dies, it will be because there's a separate economic hack
undermining it. When you live somewhere where restaurants start and fail every
month, the cost of a bad tipper reputation is pretty low. And if you adopt an
upfront tip model to combat this, you're people's losing good faith as the
fee-for-service model no longer applies -- which this article directly
discusses.

All of which puts us in the awkward position of trying to figure out whether
the lunch spot we visit is paying its staff a tipped wage without any actual
service -- no bussing, no setting, and just a beeper to let you know you
should grab your food.

~~~
scarejunba
In the context of the article (CA and SF in particular), there is no tipped
minimum wage. If your wage is minimum you make minimum, and that minimum is
higher than most. If you make tips, they go on top.

~~~
jldugger
Interesting, I thought OR was the only state like that. Of course, 'round here
minimum wage is like 15 bucks, going by the ads on the In'n'out.

Edit: how do you account for this page which indicates a (slightly) lower
tipped wage in CA? [https://www.minimum-wage.org/california/tipped-employee-
mini...](https://www.minimum-wage.org/california/tipped-employee-minimum-wage)

~~~
scarejunba
Don't know where that site is getting their info from. Try this for latest
facts:
[https://www.dol.gov/whd/state/tipped.htm](https://www.dol.gov/whd/state/tipped.htm)

You can sanity check that website by looking up your OR (which the site claims
has a tipped minimum wage).

------
ironjunkie
I'm convinced that those systems have deliberately be made to push the
customer to tip (more) and therefore increase the transaction fee for the
payment operator (Square most of the time).

Most of the workdays, I go eat lunch at "order at the counter" places. The
Square ipad is directly visible to everyone behind me in the line as they can
all see that I put "No tip". More than once, I have seen people look back to
check if other people in the line would see their choice, and subsequently
change it to a "socially acceptable" tip of 15%.

~~~
ams6110
I never tip at an order-at-the-counter restaurant. If I place my order at the
counter, and get my own drink, find my own table, etc., I'm not sure what
there is to tip for.

------
safgasCVS
Shifting the burden of paying employees to the customer via guilt and coercion
is what's wrong here. Customers should not be made to feel like an asshole for
not appreciating seeing their quoted price go up 20%. Lobbying Congress? Start
with not supporting dickheads who do this. Charge 20% more and pay your
employees properly

~~~
RickS
A number of restaurants have tried this, and more broadly, JCP tried something
of the same sort (charge the "real" price, do away with the manipulative
abstractions).

You start hemorrhaging customers. People's baselines for how much food costs
are old and calcified, and customers flat out can't be counted on to act
rationally and in their economic self interest.

[https://abcnews.go.com/Business/jc-penney-admits-marking-
pri...](https://abcnews.go.com/Business/jc-penney-admits-marking-prices-order-
customers-discounted/story?id=19323843)

~~~
safgasCVS
I'm aware of this research - it's a culture shift but it's not an immutable
law of gravity. You need customers to start demanding this - it won't happen
top down with restaurants.

------
bdcravens
Worth noting that California pays a "fair" minimum wage to tipped workers (as
opposed to states that pay as little as $2.13/hr to tipped workers)

~~~
tdurden
$2.13/hr was what I was paid as a waiter 20 years ago, and was terrible back
then - it amazes me that this number is still the same.

------
tomc1985
Where I am there are a lot of restaurants with the Square tablets on a pivot,
and what I've noticed is that with fast-food-type places the worker will turn
their head away while you enter the tip amount. Or they'll preselect, "no tip"

I too am annoyed by the ubiquity of these tip prompts, but the manners haven't
changed. (It's been on credit card slips forever.) People shouldn't feel
obligated to tip just because, say, it's the owner serving cold brew from his
food truck.

~~~
lbotos
I mean, my fav is NYC cabs where the options start at 20% and go 25%, 30% or
custom. Great way to avoid getting 10% tips if that was set as the floor.

------
whalesalad
It feels like a dark pattern for sure. I tip for service and service only. I
regularly hit the no tip button on the new interfaces. I wish I didn’t have to
worry about tipping... I miss Uber when it abstracted that away. But alas it
only works when they compensate drivers properly.

Tipping in general sucks. I feel like most of the time it’s manipulating
customers into squeezing a little extra on the top. Just raise your prices.

------
dev_north_east
Was in a restaurant recently, asked for the bill and when it came it already
had a 10% tip included in it and a big spiel about how the company wanted to
treat their staff right and that if you wanted to opt out, you could... What
cheek. Never going back there again and I've spread the word to my friends of
mine.

I'm UK based by and by. Keep that nonsense in the US.

------
trocadero
Amazon Whole Foods delivery is the worst offender in this area. You finish
your order and on the confirmation screen they add a tiny little line item for
a preselected 10% tip. Suddenly your "free" delivery is now $15.

------
duxup
Lots of fast casual places now have a tip on their screens. I always choose 0.

I mean seriously the only interaction I'm having lasted 30 seconds, I'll never
see this person again / they won't do anything more for me, no tip needed...

I hate tipping as it is (granted I do tip in non fast casual food situations).
I'd rather just the cost be up front.

~~~
hoodwink
I used to feel the same, but then I started to appreciate just how fortunate I
am to not have to work in retail. This isn’t because I’m better. It’s just
because I was born into the right situation.

I always tip now and use the experience as a reminder not to take my fortune
for granted. It’s also a reminder that everything I have might be taken away
at any time.

~~~
batteryhorse
I don't think retail is a bad job. I would hate to be stuck at a computer all
day writing code and dealing with non-technical managers and clients.

Someone who works a job where they receive consistent tips can make a lot of
money, and if it's in cash it's tax free.

Plus the tips never go to the kitchen who do all the actual work.

~~~
techsupporter
> and if it's in cash it's tax free.

Obligatory nit: Being paid in cash is not exempt from regular income tax.

------
joelrunyon
I really don't like how this is moving from just food-service workers to
pretty much everything.

The #1 reason I liked Uber/Lyft was you didn't have to tip. Then the margins
didn't make sense and now they ask for it. I shouldn't have to subsidize those
rides with tips because you're not paying the driver enough. Just charge me
the price you need to charge me.

------
maym86
In this scenario, especially in SF as a tech worker, you should feel guilty if
you can afford to spare a dollar for someone on minimum wage for a tip but are
reaching for the zero button. Having the iPad highlight your stingyness is not
a problem with the technology.

~~~
plants
Couldn't agree more. Don't like tipping an extra dollar for a coffee once in a
while? Make it at home. If you can't spare $15 a week to tip service employees
when you're sporting a six-figure salary, shame on you.

If you're a regular at a coffeeshop/fast casual place, another perk of tipping
is that you quickly become known as a tipper and employees will come to like
you. If you need a selfish reason to tip beyond having the employees like you,
sometimes they'll even hook you up with free/discounted stuff.

It's easy to just eat out one fewer time a week and redistribute the would-
have-been-spent-anyway money as tips to service employees, regardless of how
much you think they actually 'did' for you.

------
avastmick
I live in either NZ, the UK or China, depending on work. None of these have a
tipping culture. It's the cultural and psychological aspects that are
fascinating, particularly the comments that list proof that in the US, if
outlets show real prices, i.e. those that the customer will actually pay,
including tax and gratuities, people go elsewhere, to outlets that give a
false sense of economy.

Personally, I've found that when in the US I felt the food to be cheap, but
when I pay the bill, the actual cost to be largely equivalent to other western
countries. But, I still harbour the irrational feeling that the US is cheaper,
even though the receipts I submit don't reflect this "feeling".

Tipping (and non listed taxes) is the 99c cost point writ large. To me it
seems, all other considerations (discomfort, worker's rights, fairness, etc.)
are overwhelmed by the lower price ticket.

Thoughts?

------
Sohcahtoa82
The worst is when I see this at a self-serve frozen yogurt shop.

That one really blows my mind. I literally filled the cup with froyo and all
the fixins myself. My entire interaction with the employee is placing it on
their scale and giving them money. Why would I tip that?

------
dgzl
I had thought of something profound today:

Within about five minutes, I had walked into a smoothie shop, ordered a drink,
paid with a $1 tip, received my drink, and walked out.

Pretending for a moment that servers actually get their full tip (they don't),
and assuming this person makes $10/hr, then by giving them a one dollar tip
for five minutes of service, I effectively doubled their earnings for their
five minutes. (Their wage is $1/6 minutes, less after taxes)

I received very little service, and nothing outside of what "their job" would
entail. In fact, at one point the sever was impatient and made me feel rushed.
Tipping is an abomination of a custom.

~~~
stevenwoo
The tip is often split between all the workers on duty, with different splits
depending upon position.

~~~
dgzl
Hence the "let's pretend they get their full tip" statement.

It's also taxed, what's your point? Mine still stands.

~~~
jjeaff
It is only split between the workers not managers or owners. And since they
don't really do anything for your tip anyway, seems fine to split it amongst
the workers.

As for taxes... Only if it's reported. If you tipped in cash, you can be
fairly certain that it will not get reported.

------
raldi
Related:

> A 2009 study by the [NYC] Taxi and Limousine Commission found that
> gratuities rose after cabbies adopted a credit card system that prompted
> riders to tip; their tips jumped from an average of about 10 percent when
> all fares were paid in cash to about 22 percent on card transactions.

[http://www.slate.com/articles/business/moneybox/2014/03/star...](http://www.slate.com/articles/business/moneybox/2014/03/starbucks_square_and_e_payments_do_new_point_of_payment_systems_increase.html)

~~~
BonesJustice
Considering the screen only has presets for 20%, 25%, and 30%, I’m not at all
surprised.

------
rbritton
Don’t always assume the full tip goes to the employees. At a place I used to
work, the employer took 50% of the gratuity charge for all banquets. If you
want the employee to get it, tip in cash.

~~~
oasisbob
Is there any state where that isn't just blatantly illegal wage theft?

------
tvh
There needs to be a ban and removal of the tipping requirement altogether. I
know, easier said than done. I'm just saying, many European countries do not
have tips embedded in their culture, and that's a good thing. If I go to a
sit-down restaurant, I'm already being marked up for that - before tipping. If
I have some food delivered, I'm paying for the delivery service, or I am being
marked up on the item's price - before tipping. By doing that, we ensure that
the salaries of employees are legally decent (rather than them counting on
unpredictable extras to make ends meet). This forces the employer not to
direct all of the margin into his own pocket while squeezing the employee's
salary.

I personally have never tipped anyone unless I was excessively well catered
for, or someone went out of their way to enhance the experience I was already
paying for in the first place. That's what tipping must be, not forcing the
customer to actually compensate for your employees being underpaid. I'm sorry
for anyone who has a lower salary than normal because the boss expects that
tips will bridge the gap. If needed, I'm much happier to pay a higher price
(relatively). Indeed, I propose that most of the time, the prices are already
including all costs and the margin, and that the owners direct the whole
margin to them while squeezing the employees out of it and having them rely on
tips to make a decent living. The solution to low salaries is not tipping and
guilting people into paying extra cost for no reason whatsoever and for
something that's already marked up to the appropriate level, it is better
salaries framed by law or contract.

~~~
TheCoelacanth
How do you ban a social expectation? Tipping is never _required_ , it is just
socially expected.

~~~
tvh
Good point. To answer your question blatantly: by law. Not saying "you can't
ever tip". But more to frame the employer/employee contract and prevent the
employee relying on tips, and instead having a contractual/legal framework for
his salary.

Let me be clear in saying however that I'm not a fan of shaping culture
changes by legal requirements. So I'm second guessing myself a little too now,
but I really think the culturally accepted tipping expectation is detrimental
overall as per my original comment.

------
mnm1
The employees who don't do anything yet think it's right to shame others into
tipping them for nothing are the ones who should be ashamed. After
accidentally tipping a few times for no reason, I have made it a priority to
resist this bullshit. It's not my place as a customer to pay more for no
reason just because most jobs in this country pay shit and I'm supposed to
feel pity for the employees. Yeah the whole situation sucks and we should
eliminate tipping altogether and have a livable minimum wage, but this is one
way workers are not going to get sympathy. We can all fight for a proper
minimum wage or they can nickel and dime the rest of us into not caring about
their situation due to this kind of bullshit. I for one am going to
specifically make sure not to tip wherever no service exists and whenever
asked to before any service rendered, even if there will be a service
rendered. I hope others have enough common sense and character to do the same.

------
parliament32
My personal rules are:

1) If I pay before I get service (fast food, coffee shop counter, etc),
there's no tip. The point of tipping is for service, I'm not pre-tipping you
for service you haven't given me yet.

2) The vast majority of the time I tip 15%. It's extremely rare I see service
that's outstandingly poor or outstandingly good. Most are just average.

------
simulate
It's very difficult to change tipping expectations. Uber unsuccessfully tried
to maintain no tipping through its app. After driver complaints[1] and
pressure from NYC[2] and others, Uber added tipping.

[1] [https://www.wired.com/2016/05/uber-wants-to-save-us-from-
rac...](https://www.wired.com/2016/05/uber-wants-to-save-us-from-racism/)

[2] [https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/17/nyregion/new-york-city-
ub...](https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/17/nyregion/new-york-city-uber-tipping-
app.html)

------
gnicholas
I give credit to the few shops that default to "no tip" — presumably because
so little service is involved in their transactions. Of course, it's fine to
offer an option to add a tip, which is basically just the digital equivalent
of a tip jar. But for the shops where service is minimal, it is appropriate to
set the default to be no tip.

~~~
pmorici
The real question is wether the workers are being paid the tipped or no tips
minimum wage. The former being much less than the later in much of the US

~~~
gnicholas
I'm in CA so don't encounter this issue. Is it common in other states for
workers in an establishment where you order at a counter and pick up your food
from a counter to be paid a tipped minimum wage? I thought employers had to
gross up employee pay if their hourly + tips didn't hit the non-tipped minimum
wage?

~~~
techsupporter
> I thought employers had to gross up employee pay if their hourly + tips
> didn't hit the non-tipped minimum wage?

Employers are required to do that.

However, as is most often the case at the low end of the job ladder, enforcing
your employment rights against your employer is a very efficient way to find
yourself unemployed and--in smaller communities where "people are gonna
talk"\--blackballed from ever holding a job again.

~~~
gnicholas
I totally understand that. I'm just wondering if anyone is aware of employers
paying a tipped minimum wage to the sorts of businesses described (where
employees interact with employees in the same way as in fast food
establishments, roughly).

------
throeuhway
Unfortunately tipping is how these employers are legally permitted to pay
their employees

Removing the tipping without increasing the pay is even more offensive and
from my experience is a predominantly tech phenomenon (1)

(1)
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17612190](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17612190)

------
raldi
To throw travelers a bone, regulations should require the screens to show the
average tip.

In fact, it should be required to be the default.

~~~
mrep
That sounds awesome. One of the guys I knew in college was from Jamaica and
literally never tipped anyone until senior year because he didn't know that
you were supposed to.

Now all these other industries are trying to add tipping as a custom and and I
have no idea who that actually goes to, what they make without it nor how much
other people tip.

------
tdurden
I was just coerced.

I spent a decent amount of money to get my car detailed, and was presented
with a Square app prompting for a tip. I did tip because it felt like not
doing so was somehow improper. After thinking about it, I will not do this
again.

------
brian-armstrong
The tip calculator on these is surprisingly broken in obvious ways. For
example, if you order a cup of coffee and merchandise or a bag of beans, it
calculates 15% on the entire order. Wtf!

~~~
notyourwork
You usually do tip on the full amount right?

~~~
freditup
The parent's point is that you don't normally tip on merchandise you buy. If
you buy a beer for $10 and a tshirt for $30 from a bartender, a typical tip
would be $2 not $8.

That said, it's sort of an arbitrary custom. It's not very much work to fill a
glass of beer, find a t-shirt in some cabinet, or hand someone a cup of
coffee.

~~~
brian-armstrong
Not like it makes much of a difference, but in the cases where I've seen it,
the merchandise is just on display on the floor. So there is not even an
aspect of retrieving it from the cabinet, it is just being rung up.

------
Paul-ish
I've started using cash where possible when I see these terminals. It's
sometimes the easiest way to avoid the prompt altogether.

------
rosege
When I was last in the US I noticed that restaurants generally seemed to
charge similar amounts to my expensive city (Sydney) but that was before the
tip. So is it a lot more profitable to run a restaurant in the US because you
essentially offload the labour cost from the meal to the tip but can keep the
meal a similar price?

Also if its something that is generally always expected to be 20% then why not
charge extra and pay your staff normally rather than having this extra layer
to potentially mislead diners?

~~~
jen729w
We (Melbourne) noticed the opposite: the US seems really cheap, until you
actually get the bill and add on sales tax and tip; then, turns out, it’s
about the same as here.

------
eivindga
Tipping should be banned completely. It's discriminatory, feeds into the black
economy and is f __ __ __annoying.

Also, its linked to higher rates of corruption:

[https://www.gsb.stanford.edu/faculty-
research/publications/h...](https://www.gsb.stanford.edu/faculty-
research/publications/here-tip-prosocial-gratuities-are-linked-corruption)

------
dgzl
Is anyone else occasionally afraid to eat at restaurants if a) the tip is
established before the food is made and b) you didn't tip well or at all?

I have a friend who tells me horror stories of foul behaviour performed with
the food by the chef in these situations.

------
maym86
Guess what, you still don't have to tip if you don't want to. Your "guilt" is
your problem, not a problem with the iPad. Anything that increases the
takehome pay of low paid service workers in SF seems fine. It is entirely opt
in.

An article featuring complaints about some of the lowest paid people in SF
getting paid a little more because of a new technology lacks some self
awareness.

~~~
Camillo
Look, if you want to pay them more, pay them more. I'm all for it. I just
don't want each retail transaction to be turned into a labor negotiation!

Tipping at restaurants is bad enough: why do I have to decide how much the
waiter should make? If you make me think about it, 20% gross honestly seems
way too much: the back of the house contributes a much larger portion of the
value of the meal, so it feels like I'm stiffing _them_! But tipping waiters
is ingrained enough that I just always give that 20%.

Any other transaction where apps try to add tipping, though? That's going to
be $0 every single time, guilt free. If anything, I feel like I'm doing my
part to keep companies from ruining another social interaction.

~~~
maym86
Sure. Big picture, I agree entirely. I automatically tip 20% too as it's just
the cost of the transaction and even if the waiter is bad it could well be
because of their manager understaffing the restaurant or a number of reasons
beyond their control.

Do away with the tipping and pay people properly for thier labor. En lieu of
that happening (and I don't see it happening soon) I'll still tip at these
kiosks. I don't have much sympathy for people who complain about them but I
get your point.

------
danjoc
How do you know who gets the tip? Panera used to refuse tips. Now I go in and
I'm presented with tip amounts at the point of sale. Who get's that tip? The
cashier? The person in back making my food? The person who comes by and busses
my table? Or none of the above? Is Panera just pocketing what I'm willing to
throw in extra? Maybe it is market research, they figure if I'm willing to tip
20% instead of 15%, then the should charge more for the sandwich?

------
crazygringo
So many comments here are talking about "defaulting" to tips or to 20% -- but
I've never seen that on a Square or Square-type device.

It always requires a signature and you have to explicitly press "18%", "20%",
"25%" (or similar) or "No tip" button.

I would be shocked if I ever saw a tip amount pre-selected for me (unless on a
bill for a large party at restaurant, which has been standard for a long time
now).

~~~
mikelward
But those four _are_ the defaults. And for someone just taking your order, the
range from 18-25% doesn't match expectations. In those situations, $0.50, $1,
or 10% all seem closer to what I'd tip. The point of the article is many
people are now choosing 18%, since it's easier, and there's subtle pressure
for them to do so.

~~~
throwaway413
On Square devices, I have observed that if the amount is less than a certain
threshold, the tip amounts will be $1, $2, and $3. Past that threshold and it
defaults to 15%, 20%, 25%. I live in a downtown area and regularly interact
with these systems (2+ times per day on avg).

