
Diamonds Suck (2006) - nsomaru
http://diamondssuck.com/
======
isostatic
> If I can prevent a single reader from needlessly dropping $6,000-10,000+ on
> a diamond engagement ring, this site will be a success. Financial worries
> are the #1 cause of stress in a married relationship - there is absolutely
> NO excuse to start your married life by taking on that level of debt.

Average U.S. wedding cost $30k in 2014, while the average engagement ring was
$5600, or 19% of the cost [0]

[https://www.valuepenguin.com/average-cost-of-
wedding](https://www.valuepenguin.com/average-cost-of-wedding)

While reducing/eliminating the cost of the ring is a big saving, the entire
wedding industry is a shocking way to start your marriage (especially given
about half will end in divorce)

~~~
charlesdm
Not everything is about money though. Want to have an extravagant wedding?
Fine. Want something basic? Also fine.

Yes: diamonds, jewellery, mechanical watches etc are all bad value for money.
People don't buy them because they're bad value. They buy them because they
like wearing them, and women buy jewellery because it makes them feel pretty.

That's life. It's fine throwing money away sometime.

~~~
throwawaymath
Yes, you're right. I don't understand the myopia on this forum when it comes
to people spending money irrationally. Human beings are not hyper-efficient
savings maximization engines. Every time the story about why "diamonds suck"
hits the front page (maybe once a year or so?), the same rounds of patting-on-
the-back are exchanged in the comments for rehashing a one-dimensional social
commentary that buying diamonds is silly.

Yes of course it's silly! But that's not the point, and it never has been.
Once you're at the point of buying a gift that costs far more than its
intrinsic, utilitarian value, worrying about its "true scarcity" is just
haggling on the details. I purchased an engagement ring for my wife that
costed about $30,000. She didn't ask for anything remotely as extravagant as
that, but she likes it and I enjoy it for frankly vain reasons. I take immense
pleasure out of the reactions it elicits from other people. Despite being very
clear-eyed about the artificial scarcity of diamonds and DeBeers marketing, I
still bought it because I enjoyed being able to make a frivolous purchase.
Personally I don't like spending a lot on things that aren't either
experiential or somewhat long-lasting, so I'd never spend much at all on a
wedding dress. But I don't begrudge people for spending money inefficiently if
they can afford it.

We're all the same species. With very few exceptions, none of us is hyper-
vigilant, hyper-rational or hyper-efficient. There are many, many things we
idly buy which are artificially scarce or inflated in price. Buying them is
not categorically different from buying expensive jewelry under a cultural
zeitgeist perpetuated by a global conglomerate. I think most people really
don't have much self-awareness about how high their floor of wealth and
personal spending is over the ceiling of frugality and efficiency they talk
about so much.

~~~
theunixbeard
Are you an entrepreneur with a profitable business or successful exit?

If not, 30K might represent 6-12 months of personal runway to build your own
business.

~~~
charlesdm
He's not going to buy his wife a $30k engagement ring if he's earning $30k a
year...

~~~
theunixbeard
You don’t save 100% of what you earn.

50% is considered very good, but in consumer focused America some people might
save only 10% of their income (thus for a 100K income to save 30K represents 3
years of savings obliterated).

------
maaaats
What is the difference between a diamond and an expensive handbag or other
accessory?

If a thing is worth what people pay, how come diamonds are a scam and other
items not?

I have a hard time grasping this everytime an anti-diamond article pops up. I
can see the logic in not using that kind of money on a ring, but not what's so
special about the price/scarcity/fashion of diamonds compared to other luxury
goods.

~~~
charlesdm
Just another guy pointing out WHY they're a ripoff. Most luxury goods are
"ripoffs" (from a financial point of view). Yet plenty of people love buying
luxury items for the feeling it gives them and the experience, and because the
item (in comparison to a non luxury item) is still much better.

Nothing wrong with that in my view. Personally I don't share they view they're
a ripoff, but to each their own.

Have you ever bought a mechanical watch? I have, and I loved the experience --
from researching and exploring it, to visiting a few jewellers, to getting a
good deal, to finally getting the item. I look forward to the day when I can
buy my (to be) wife amazing pieces of jewellery, regardless of the price.

~~~
stinos
_Yet plenty of people love buying luxury items for the feeling it gives them_

For me that is the huge rip-off next to the financial part: for a lot of these
luxury items the extra money doesn't get you proportionally more or better
functionality nor quality (2 things which are imo actually worth money since
they give you something practical and useful back). It's often more about
looks and how it feels. But do the people really care about the looks
themselves, or rather how they are perceived by others? And is that really
worth pursuing? And does buying a feeling really work and how long does this
feeling last? Also is the feeling 'real' or is it just made-up in the end
because culture tells you it's like that?

~~~
charlesdm
Why would it be a rip off? You act as if 'overcharging' for something is
always a rip off. If I'm walking in a desert without water.. I'll likely be
billing to pay (a lot) more than if I had a bottle with me.

Luxury goods often have more price elasticity compared to other items, but
they still deliver value to the people buying them. Not that you need an
entire Louis Vuitton collection, but splurging can be fun. It's really not
your call to make whether spending on luxury items is worth pursuing --
depends on how high your income and wealth is.

Also: perception is everything in the world. Someone who is well dressed is
generally taken more seriously than the same person in a hoodie and wearing
sweatpants.

~~~
stinos
_You act as if 'overcharging' for something is always a rip off._

Syntactically those 2 terms indeed have a similar feel to them - 'over'
doesn't have a good connotation in 'overcharging'. But I'm not sure why you
think I consider them to always be equivalent, I don't.

 _they still deliver value to the people buying them_

It's exactly the worth of that (perceived) value I was questioning.

 _It 's really not your call to make whether spending on luxury items is worth
pursuing -- depends on how high your income and wealth is._

You're not claiming I cannot take part in this discussion if my income isn't
high enough, are you :] Anyway, rest assured: my income and wealth are such
that I could buy more than a bunch of VT bags or rings with diamonds or
whatever. Even more I'm no stranger to having bought overpriced luxury items
in a distant past so I kind of know what I'm questioning here. Ha, it's
exactly the reason I'm questioning it. But even if it were not why would I not
be allowed to ask questions about other's motives?

 _Also: perception is everything in the world_

Correction: a part of the world. A part which is way too big for my liking and
for which I consider myself extremely fortunate I don't have to deal with it
often. I want to be taken serious for who I am and not because of what I look
like. Also: one can look well dressed (to whatever standard) in clothes which
don't cost a dime so there's a fine line between 'well dressed' and
'expensively dressed so it must be well'.

------
tzaman
Out of curiosity, what's all the fuss with engagement rings in the first
place? When me and my wife got engaged, I gave her nothing (nor did she expect
anything), just asked her to marry me and she agreed, we kissed and that was
it.

We did, however, made wedding rings, which together were about $1300, but
that's because they were made out of gold.

Why overcomplicate things? :)

~~~
rayiner
Our engagement rings trace back to Middle Ages Europe, where they arose to
serve a notice function (this person is taken). Diamonds became associated
with them in the Victorian era, and became more widespread when ordinary
people started copying the trappings of nobility (diamond engagement rings,
college, etc.).

~~~
slfnflctd
I was told a story that the concept originated before this, as a subtle way to
identify acolytes of a certain religious order or place of worship in ancient
times. The phrase used was "temple prostitutes". I've searched a bit and had
trouble finding a source to back this up, though. If anyone has one or can
debunk it, I'd be happy either way.

------
LordHeini
As a sidenote, the rings with diamonds thing is mostly an American fad.

All people i know in Germany have just plain gold rings.

It is way nicer because it is more a symbol of commitment than a show of
wealth.

Those never get out of style, can hardly be damaged and if need be can be
replaced cheaply.

~~~
eindbaas
Those are wedding bands. Engagement rings more often feature diamonds or other
gems. Wedding bands rarely do indeed (in Western Europe anyway).

~~~
realusername
I can't speak of Germany but in France engagement rings are very rare and more
something of the upper class, out of all the weddings I've done, none of them
did that.

~~~
baud147258
I wouldn't say that engagement rings are upper class, but it's true it's only
in certain groups. In my peer group, it's common, for example my brother
bought one for his fiancée and my mom has one. But in all case they were
gifted at the time of the engagement, not at the wedding.

------
dkobia
Unfortunately this is one of those American traditions we love to hate but are
for the moment powerless to change. Your significant other may not care but
societal pressure and expectation is hard to get around. She has a mother,
sisters, friends etc. It is the same reason an expensive handbag makes
absolutely no sense to a man but matters so much to a woman. It is
confounding.

~~~
GimbalLock
Powerless? No. Just don’t buy it. It really is that simple. You don’t have to
change everyone’s mind. Just stand up for yourself.

~~~
bitwize
And say goodbye to the girl of your dreams, who was really looking forward to
showing her friends the "rock" on her finger and hearing them ooh and ahh over
it.

Even if she doesn't leave you over this, unless you somehow married a
Hackernews you've set up the image in her head that you're a skinflint who
isn't willing to provide for your wife and it _will_ affect your relationship
in negative ways. Is your autism that strong that you will put a pedantic
commitment to your own head logic and fighting the evil forces of marketing
above your wife's feelings? If so, maybe you don't deserve to be married.

~~~
GimbalLock
No need to baselessly suggest autism. There are people who don’t care about
these things. Find one of them. It’s not hard. I’ve known several.

------
andrei821
> Isn't it amazing (and scary) how brainwashed people are about the "value" of
> diamonds, even though they're not actually worth that much?

It seems to me that the same strategy is curently used in the crypto
ecosystem.

~~~
chasingthewind
I was wondering to myself "what are the diamonds of the HN crowd?" and found
you've answered my question.

------
boobsbr
If your marriage being successful, fulfilling and happy depends on a chunk of
expensive rock and/or metal, you'd better not get married.

~~~
GuB-42
It is not about the object itself, it is about respecting your partner's
values. If an expensive ring means a lot to your partner, then it is
definitely important for your marriage.

The same can be said for extramarital sex. Assuming proper precautions are
taken to avoid medical issues, rationally, it is not a big deal. And yet,
besides a small minority of couples who embrace open marriage, this is hugely
important.

If requiring some compromise warrants not getting married, no one will ever
get married.

~~~
gkya
It's also a measure of the value of your partner's personality. A SO which
needs me to communicate in $$$ is the last thing I'd ever want in my life.
It's a glaring symptom of a shallow personality.

------
icebraining
Previous discussion:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12944464](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12944464)

------
scandox
People who buy engagements rings are simply spending lots of money as an
expression of love and providing visible proof of that to other people. I
don't think that's a great idea but everybody's different. So the value of
diamonds is somewhat irrelevant.

~~~
mijamo
You could do that without mined diamonds and all its negative consequences.

~~~
scandox
Yeah big time. But you can say that about a lot of things. Point I'm making is
that if people want to consume ridiculous things the current system we live
under kind of favours that. If it isn't diamonds then it's going to be some
other crap that requires other people to live lives of utter drudgery. That's
kind of the point. If you want a vision of the future, Winston, imagine a
Jimmy Choo stamping on a human face forever.

------
paulie_a
The weirdest aspect about diamonds is they are not even that pretty. Plenty of
other gems are much more beautiful for a lot less money.

------
cygned
For German readers, I really recommend the following podcast episode about
diamonds:

[https://cre.fm/cre218-diamanten](https://cre.fm/cre218-diamanten)

------
nailer
Another option: second hand diamonds, which diamond merchants will tell you
don't exist. People die, if they don't pass their stones onto their children,
this is where they end up.

Sotheby's jewelly auctions. Know what you want, buy stones and ignore settings
(they'll be dated and you can sell the metals), and know you're the only
retail customer in a room full of diamond merchants.

Another option: get a house deposit and work on building an eventual family
with your woman rather than provide her with trinkets.

~~~
wycy
How easy/hard is it to extract diamonds from these old settings and get a new
setting for it? Where would one even go to get a diamond placed in a new
setting?

~~~
nailer
Easy. If you have the stone you can get a new setting (and the stone placed in
it) at most high/main street jewellers. Everyone who reuses their family
stones gets this done, so the jeweller won't mind doing it.

------
NikolaNovak
Anybody know anything about this "Moissanite" thing?

I find it interesting that in the 100+ comments here, there's no mention of
the item the linked website so heavily promotes, yet I personally never heard
of until now. One of the reasons I love HN is that usually relevant knowledge
and experience will come out of woodworks and share their wisdom - so, anybody
ever heard of "Moissanite"? :)

~~~
decimalstus
Moissanite is another name for Silicon Carbide - it's often used as a diamond
'lookalike' in jewelry, as it's much cheaper to produce.

------
xstartup
There are many people crafting software with category theory, refactoring it
10 times a week, using whatever latest JS framework is the trend, then asking
for a price.

Most of it might mean absolutely nothing to a customer. But you think the
price you charge is fair.

Don't conflate the efforts you put, with that actual value of your product.

Many software might have the same utility as of a diamond and may have the
same price as a diamond.

------
ivanhoe
I always thought of the engagement ring tradition as a financial safety-net
for a woman, in a culture where it was customary that only men work and women
stay home. Woman in such setup has no "her" money, but if she owns an
expensive ring that she can easily sell that gives her some level of freedom,
if needed.

~~~
Qub3d
Its an interesting theory, but falls apart in practice. The parent article
mentions the abysmal resell value of diamonds.

Ignoring the advertisement at the end, this article sums things up pretty
well: [https://www.diamonds.pro/education/sell-
diamonds/](https://www.diamonds.pro/education/sell-diamonds/)

------
josh_fyi
Nothing says "Marry me! Marry someone who wastes lots of your shared money!"
like a diamond.

------
forkLding
I've always found it fascinating how powerful DeBeers' marketing is,
considering that in nature gems like rubies and sapphires are much rarer than
diamonds yet are worth considerably less.

------
mehwoot
If you think that solely the physical properties of the stone are what matters
then you dont understand the point of an engagement ring.

~~~
arethuza
Well, I do understand the point of an engagement ring - what I am completely
flummoxed by is the idea that you should spend a huge chunk of money on one.

I got my wife an eternity ring as an engagement ring - not because of any
rules but because we both liked it and it wasn't very expensive. Been married
27 years so far so it seems to have worked! ;-)

~~~
peatmoss
> Been married 27 years so far so it seems to have worked!

As I like to joke with my wife, it’s not a successful marriage until one of us
dies.

As for rings, we didn’t do an engagement ring, and my wife’s ring contains a
sapphire mined from our home state.

------
0xcafecafe
moissanite.net redirects to some diamond jeweler's site now. Any idea what
happened to that domain?

------
chrisseaton
People who are against diamonds seem extremely aggressive about making sure
other people agree with them and validate their opinions.

I can't imagine making a website about any of my jewellery preferences (short
of ethical, which isn't mentioned prominently here).

~~~
baud147258
Well it's like vegans. Except here instead of animal suffering, it's human
suffering; which can give a greater sense of importance to the cause. And in
turn, it would make people against diamonds feels justified to be more
aggressive.

~~~
chrisseaton
The human suffering part is pretty far down this person's list of complaints
against diamonds.

Their principle problems are price and marketing.

------
matthberg
If I might ask, why was this flagged? It was last discussed in 2016 [0], and
though it needs a [2006] tag, it is otherwise a really valid and interesting
post.

[0]:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12944464](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12944464)

~~~
wyclif
I wondered the same thing.

------
Oras
I know I will get a hell of downvotes for this, but "Brainwashed" term can
also be applied to people trading Bitcoins? Some people agreed that it is
valuable and gave some tokens a huge value and its a market now.

~~~
zeroxfe
Diamond prices are artificially inflated by a single organization. Bitcoin is
priced by the market.

(Yes, there is lots of manipulation in the latter, but it's still not
comparable to diamonds.)

~~~
bluedevil2k
Wrong. The DeBeers monopoly doesn't exist anymore and the market sets the
prices on diamonds. Nearly all diamonds are priced through auctions now a
days.

------
xstartup
Yes, this post missing the point that I as a diamond buyer already know this
but it will not stop me from purchasing more diamonds.

In a hypothetical world, if a diamond could be bought for $10K and sold for
$10K, where is the risk? Then it's no longer for only rich, others can take a
loan from a bank and purchase diamonds.

When I pay for a diamond, I don't pay for its intrinsic value. I pay for
diamonds because other people around me feel they are expensive and you've to
be rich enough to set your money on fire (like you do while purchasing a
diamond). It's a signal for others that I am "fuck you money" rich.

The very same reason for which I purchase a sports car, yes a sports car does
have some advanced engineering but the resale value is not same.

As long as diamond purchase price stays up I'll keep buying. Only thing I want
is that no other people are able to acquire them for cheap when I am willing
to pay a premium. (I hate price discrimination, i've also worked hard for my
money, why should anyone get them cheap?)

Please stop treating me like a victim of De Beers campaign.

~~~
lgl
_When I pay for a diamond, I don 't pay for its intrinsic value. I pay for
diamonds because other people around me feel they are expensive and you've to
be rich enough to set your money on fire (like you do while purchasing a
diamond). It's a signal for others that I am "fuck you money" rich._

This may have been a sarcastic post (?) but why do you care if other people
think you have "fuck you money"? That just makes you look intellectually weak
and poor imho.

But here's one thing that "fuck you money" won't buy: class.

~~~
xstartup
> This may have been a sarcastic post (?) but why do you care if other people
> think you have "fuck you money"? That just makes you look intellectually
> weak and poor imho. But here's one thing that "fuck you money" won't buy:
> class.

Why should I care if that makes me look intellectually weak and poor imho? I
am from old banker family, I love diamonds and I collect them. I gave you
other reasons for which I collect all these diamonds.

If you ask me in an interview, I obviously won't mention these views and give
you a politically correct answer. But this is the internet, I am using
anonymity, where is the problem with that?

I am just sharing my views, I don't care about your judgment.

> But here's one thing that "fuck you money" won't buy: class.

I am born into it, there is no reason for me to buy.

~~~
gkya
> I am born into it, there is no reason for me to buy.

What a self-annihilating affirmation this is! A fucking _gem_ :) You're rich
and hilarious!

