
Ask HN: Any programmers here that are able to make a living selling their own programs? - doubleyooexwhy
If so, feel free to share any advice you might have, and plug your own product as well.<p>I'm a programmer always looking for inspiration, and my dream is to make a living writing and selling my /own/ software, from my /own/ computer chair.
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pz
I know its a bit trendy, but I am making a living off of iPhone apps. I don't
have any smash hits but have been maintaining a fairly consistent income since
I published my first app last December. Right now I am trying to ramp up the
number of apps I have and my goal is to match my previous salary at a "hot,
young internet startup" in the valley (which is in the throws of death, i
think)

This was my first experience selling software, I was always a research
oriented, backend sort of guy... usually a few abstractions away from the
actual product. So I had to think about a lot of new things, but it was really
fun. I wasn't used to thinking about where buttons should go or how the UI
flow for creating a new game. And I certainly wasn't used to responding to
user feedback. The first version of my first game was pretty buggy and people
complained and there was my name next to it in the app store. Not something I
was used to. But now I most of the emails I get tell me how much they like the
program and as much as I like to say I hate people, it feels pretty good.

So maybe that's inspiring.

Or maybe the fact that its noon and I'm typing this from bed with my dogs
asleep next to me will inspire you. Although, the freedom to work on my own
terms is a blessing and a curse. This has been covered before on HN, but I
would say if you have the self discipline, then its more of a blessing.

I have mixed feelings about writing apps because it can be a crapshoot. I
don't think you can go into it expecting to write a huge hit, but I also think
its one of the best places for an independent software developer. Apple takes
care of a lot of the non-development details for you and you can get your app
in front of a lot of eyes very quickly.

PS: I will probably go back to work at another startup someday. As much as fun
as I'm having, I do miss working with a good team of folks on something that
requires EVERYONE's effort. But for now, I am very happy doing what I'm doing.

~~~
doubleyooexwhy
I'd love to write an iPhone app, but I don't have a Mac. I really wish Apple
would open up development for *nix/Windows users.

~~~
bemmu
If you're going to undergo the effort of writing an app, it seems that the
cost of getting a Mac Mini is peanuts compared to that.

~~~
jamesbritt
I bought a Mini for ~ USD $700 (and got a free-but-for-tax printer!) to test
my own desktop application (JotBot, a time-tracking tool).

What else do I need to do iPhone dev? Won't I need some sort of actual device
aside from an emulator?

~~~
jamroom
Pick up an iPod Touch - it runs pretty much all of the apps that the iPhone
does, but you're not stuck with the monthly charge from AT&T. I'm using a Mini
for iphone/ipod dev work, and the ipod touch works great.

~~~
pz
I agree. I don't even have an iphone, i just picked up an iPod touch (although
it makes me want an iphone even more). Before that I would swipe my roommates
iPhone to test things out but that got old fast :) If you want to develop an
idea around the GPS or the camera, you might need an actual iPhone.

Mac mini's are great, or pick up an old model macbook. I would also highly
recommend the book "Cocoa Programming for Mac OS X".

~~~
jamesbritt
Thanks!

------
doubleyooexwhy
I'm trying. I wrote AutoScreen (<http://www.16software.com/autoscreen>) about
a year ago, and I'm getting 2-3 sales a month -- the majority of those sales
seem to come from small businesses -- with $0 in advertising (can't afford it,
to be honest). I've been kept fairly busy adding new features for my users,
but it's time to focus on another app, because 2-3 sales/month is definitely
not enough to survive on.

For me, the hard part is coming up with something "worth" taking the time and
effort to go through with. I've had some ideas -- but I want to do something
unique, that has a chance to really take off. But should I target the everyday
user, or should I target businesses (who are less likely to pirate, from what
I read)? Should I make something that has the chance to be wildly popular
among all computer users, or that is targeted towards a niche audience?

The good thing about knowing how to program, though, is it's essentially all
you need (besides a good idea) in order to make a living on your own.

Of course you need some other skills, such as marketing, but it seems to me,
if you've got a program that does something that people think is useful enough
to pay for, you're set.

Looking forward to what you guys have to say. For what it's worth, I also
posted this topic on reddit
([http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/8f4dk/any_progr...](http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/8f4dk/any_programmers_here_that_are_able_to_make_a/))
about a week ago.

~~~
pbz
You really need to invest some time in spicing up that page / site. I
understand wanting to be minimalist, but come on... It needs a nicer structure
/ layout, a little bit more color, more pictures / screenshots. Lots of text
may be what "hackers" like, but people in general want less; still
informative, but less. There are other points, some which have been addressed,
but I would start from making it look nice. Don't underestimate the importance
of good presentation.

Honestly, if I was a customer I would have closed down the page within second
not even trying to figure out what you're trying to sell. I hope you take this
as constructive criticism. Good luck!

~~~
pbz
A few more thing, take this as an example:
<http://www.apple.com/iphone/features/> (not an Apple fan, but they usually
get this stuff right; this page is not perfect, but not bad).

A few things:

* Notice the background color is darker than the content; this is to emphasize the actual content of the page. I would make the background color a bit darker.

* You probably don't have as many "categories" so I would put everything in one page.

* Notice the attraction points. Close your eyes for 5 second then open then. What do you notice the first second? This is where people will look first. You need to have the important stuff there or near it. The attraction points are usually images.

* Make a video or what your application does. People expect to be entertained, not to read. Once you capture their attention you can present more text / information. If you entertain somebody, either with a good video or nice eye candy, they will feel indebted to look more into your product. So the stages / levels should be 1: wow them, 2: convince them, 3: educate them

* Pay attention to details in your website and also your product. If your presentation page is good, people will at least give your application a fair shot. Their first impression is your site not the first time they use your application; that's way later.

For more tips: <http://www.dnrtv.com/default.aspx?showNum=112> and
<http://www.dnrtv.com/default.aspx?showNum=123>

Good luck.

------
ssprang
I'm making a living with Brushes, a painting app for the iPhone
(<http://brushesapp.com>). I started developing it about a year ago, and it's
been on sale since August 2008. Sales didn't really take off until January,
when the work of one of my artists got picked up by a lot of blogs (and
eventually Gizmodo). It was subsequently featured on the front page of the
iTunes App Store and that was certainly helpful.

At this point, I'm somewhat reluctant to work on new iPhone apps. There are so
many apps on the store that it's far too easy to get lost in the noise. An
iPhone game that some friends and I released back in December was DOA. I will
admit that I haven't fully cracked the marketing nut yet though.

I'm actually looking for an exceptional graphic designer in the SF Bay area
with whom to collaborate on some iPhone/Mac OS X projects if anyone is
interested.

~~~
pz
Hi, i posted a response to the same link about my experience developing iphone
apps.

I've published two of my own apps. One of them fulfilled a specific niche and
was picked up right away. Its not a blockbuster but sales have been
significant (i.e. living wage) and steady.

My other app disappeared very quickly and i was pretty discouraged. I made a
light version and it wasn't much help. Then it miraculously appeared on the
"what's hot" list and sales are ok now.

------
mgiger
I've been making a living from selling my shareware app EarthBrowser
(<http://earthbrowser.com>) for over 10 years now. It isn't easy competing
with Google Earth, but it's possible to do a one man shop if you work smart.

~~~
jlsonline
Just took a look at EarthBrowser. Very cool indeed. I didn't expect Adobe AIR
and would prefer it didn't default to a desktop icon but overall I like it
quite a lot. Can I remove the drop shadow from the default font?

An unexpected side effect is that I can finally tell what time it is in
England (for football / soccer matches. Go Arsenal!)

Edit - registered my copy. Really enjoying it!

Edit 2 - The included version 1.0 of Adobe Air raised an alert ("very
dangerous") in Kaspersky Anti-Virus 2009. I went ahead and upgraded to version
1.5.1 of Air, as was suggested by Kaspersky.

------
alain94040
Yes.

Join the Joel on Software community (<http://discuss.joelonsoftware.com/?biz>)
would be my advice.

Don't count on donations is my other advice :-)

Selling consumer software: very tough, but can be done by one individual.

Selling to businesses: very specialized, much easier to make your first $100K,
but you can't be a one-man shop.

~~~
doubleyooexwhy
That's what I gather. I think for the consumer, they want most things to be
free -- and if they're not free, there's always going to be a crack/keygen
available for download.

~~~
ruslan
Sell service instead. Like, if you develop a game, sell online access to maps
which cannot be downloaded, but can be used once connected. Maintaining
accounts is much easier than maintaining keys which can be cracked.

~~~
Hexstream
Well, since the question is, "Any programmers here that are able to make a
living selling their own _programs_?", I thought this approach would be
excluded... But it's true that selling services is pretty much the absolute
anti-piracy tactic.

------
bemmu
Before I was making my living from a Facebook app, which I sold for a sum
which combined with my savings from the ad revenue is enough to support me for
about 5 years. I figured it might take some time until I find the next thing,
but just a few weeks after it my MySpace app Coolest Friends started to catch
on and now I'm living off that.

I've had tons of little things and experiments I've done, but of course I
selectively mention only those few that worked. I think it's important to just
push stuff out there fast and see what happens.

------
patio11
I make about a starting programmer's salary (for this neck of the woods) with
Bingo Card Creator.

90% of the value is not created in the IDE. If you really understand that,
you'll do fine.

------
adinobro
My Dad has been selling his software for almost 8 years now and I know a
number of people that have sold there own software. I will eventually do the
same but I'm too busy at the moment. That being said there are a couple of
things that you might want to think about.

1\. Most products have a short self life. Think of all the iPhone apps. In 5
years we will probably be on the 3rd version and there will be lots of new
features. If the application critical it is likely that the feature will be
built into the iPhone at a later date or a free version will come out. If it
isn't then it will reach market saturation and then the sales will die off.

2\. You can make the sales increase by releasing a new version and fixing
bugs. Depending on the application this can extend it's life by a number of
years. You will also need to learn how to market your application. Do you want
to spend time learning about internet marketing, seo, mailing lists, adwords,
etc? Some people find it fun. Other people hate it.

3\. Think of all the applications that you were using 5 or 10 years ago. How
many are you currently using that you paid for?

4\. From what I've seen there are two different ways that you can try to make
money. Either make a product that people really need NOW and try to hit a home
run and make a couple of hundred thousand dollars and if possible sell it to
someone else before you reach market saturation. Or try to make try to link
the product to a service. If you can make a service and make $10 profit then
you only need 500 subscribers and you'll make a good living.

~~~
skuvnar
wow this is really great advice. Currently building a educational game but
having a bit of trouble of how to market my software. How effective, in your
opinion, is google adwords?

------
thinkcomp
I make a living running Think (<http://www.thinkcomputer.com>) and have
customers using Exponent, which is a web-based financial management
(accounting + payroll + taxes + CRM) program, Whiteboard, our CMS, and
Lampshade, our PHP framework.

------
rmc00
Right now, I only sell my services as a freelancer, but I would love to sell
my actual software. I found David Heinemeier Hansson's talk at Startup School
08 ([http://www.omnisio.com/startupschool08/david-heinemeier-
hans...](http://www.omnisio.com/startupschool08/david-heinemeier-hansson-at-
startup-school-08)) to be profound in its simplicity.

------
brc
Yes you can make a lving, and it can be a good one. I make a fulltime living
selling my own software. I have no boss and set my own hours, which are either
insane or lazy-to-the-bone, depending on how I feel.

The thing you have to remember is that the 80/20 powerlaw distribution seems
to be welded to this area. 80% of the money in your niche will go to 20% of
the apps on sale. 20% of your products will make 80% of your income. 20% of
your problems will cause 80% of your support load. And on and on. So when you
find yourself on the wrong part of the 80/20 distribution, take steps to get
yourself to the 'right' part.

Oh, and discard your hackers 'everything must be perfect' mentality. Get it
professional and stable, but most customers will probably not care how elegant
the code is, or which platform you use. To make money you need to be solving
their problems.

------
nickpp
I very much enjoyed the answers to this very question on Digg (oops sorry I
mean Reddit):

[http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/8f4dk/any_progr...](http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/8f4dk/any_programmers_here_that_are_able_to_make_a/)

~~~
kbrower
digg==reddit?

~~~
silentOpen
It's not a question any more. :-(

------
jamroom
I've been selling Jamroom online for almost 6 years - supports me full time +
2 part time developers, and a handful of designers as well.

~~~
joshsharp
Now that's a nice idea - you're basically just selling a CMS, but targeted at
the music industry. Given the licenses don't seem to be recurring, you must
have a fairly popular product to be able to live off it. Good work.

~~~
jamroom
Thanks for the follow up - it's appreciated. Jamroom was one of the very first
CMS's (at the time we called it a Media CMS) that supported audio/video - most
CMS systems back in 2003 were focusing on blogging and text handling, so it
helped to be one of the first systems handling media. The shutdown of mp3.com
sent a lot of users in our direction looking to handle things on their own,
and we've been organically growing ever since ;)

------
harpastum
I just released Tranquil Checkers (<http://www.tranquilapps.com>), last
thursday. I've only got three sales so far, but the first wave of 7-day trial
expirations is coming up this thursday.

I'm only a college student, and I'm excited to join the fray.

~~~
pbz
I guess I'm a UI critiquing mood right now, so here it goes:

1) There's a little bit too much white space around your logo

2) There's not enough contrast on the menu bar between the lime and the white
text. If you want to keep the same colors try to make the text in the menu
larger (16/18px).

3) "Tranquil Checkers" rivals the logo in terms of importance, i.e. needs to
be smaller or make the logo smaller. Basically, my eyes are not sure what's
more important, the logo or that text. The icon on the left is also out of
proportion with the text on the right. You could move the "Tranquil Checkers"
text a bit higher and add a short explanation below (smaller text) so that the
height of the changed block of text matches the height of the icon; or just
make the icon smaller.

4) The text on the about section makes my eyes hurt. There's not enough
contrast. Play around with those colors a bit.

5) "Download free 7-Day Trial" is too large. You could put some kind of icon
on the left to draw attention.

6) The two columns of icons looks good.

7) See 5 for the text at the bottom.

Otherwise it's so close... :) I hope this helps, good luck!

~~~
harpastum
Thanks a lot for the input! I'm really not too experienced with design, so
every little bit helps :)

------
braindead_in
<http://callgraph.biz>

Have been working on this for the past year, it pays my bills right now. :)

