
Half of us have quit our job because of a bad boss (2015) - alexellisuk
https://fortune.com/2015/04/02/quit-reasons/
======
eledumb
Not everyone has the freedom to quit their job, small towns, limited skill
sets, transportation issues, family issues, etc. etc. etc, otherwise the
number would probably be at 75%.

~~~
mattsfrey
Would likely be 100 if you remove all factors keeping somebody from quitting a
job.

~~~
ISL
Only if all bosses are bad :).

~~~
mjfl
But what if all employees are humans. And like humans, they are irrational in
their criteria of what makes a boss "good". For example, they want bosses that
never demand work from them and let them go home early every day. Even if they
get this, their standards will adjust and they will take the same level of
issue with smaller things. Being a boss and attempting to be liked by your
employees is a lost cause and foolish endeavor.

~~~
raihansaputra
But this is not true. If this is true no reputable company would have
employees staying >3 years. If you're hired at a reputable company >1 year,
chances are you do get offers or you have a greater chance to get it. Good
bosses are rare, but they do exist.

------
gamesbrainiac
I quit my job because of my manager. There was a policy of instilling fear to
gain control. There was also a push to reduce remote work in the company
despite the said remote teams performing well.

I quit because the manager was incompetent, but also because the policy was
one of instilling fear into employees.

~~~
x220
How did they instill fear?

~~~
gamesbrainiac
Salami tactics.

\- Reduce flexibility over time

\- Every expense needs to be justified a hundred times

\- delaying approval of vacation days to the point that you take a vacation,
and it is still not approved

\- Adding unnecessary process where none is required

\- Adding compromised people to the team (limited contract, needs the job
desperately, needs a raise for kid's education etc)

\- Strict butts-on-seats policy

\- Constantly saying that we are going to remove technology <x>, where <x> is
what you are hired for. Company will still need <x> for the foreseeable
future.

And there are more, but I don't want to re-live dark moments. I hope no one
actually tries to implement this stuff, because it shows that your manager is
a control-freak, and you need to run for the hills.

~~~
x220
You might be interested in reading this:

[https://www.ribbonfarm.com/2011/10/14/the-gervais-
principle-...](https://www.ribbonfarm.com/2011/10/14/the-gervais-principle-v-
heads-i-win-tails-you-lose/)

~~~
gamesbrainiac
That is very long, what is the TLDR?

~~~
1123581321
The thesis is a company employs Sociopaths, Losers, and Clueless. The Losers
accept whatever quid pro quo they get in their current position. The Clueless
struggle to distinguish themselves from Losers. The Sociopaths talk to each
other in coded language during conversations that the unwitting Clueless
believe they’re participating in. The shared understanding of the Sociopaths,
who have a real ability to navigate the corporate structure, keeps the
Clueless from advancing. The Losers are smarter than the Clueless because they
perceive the Sociopaths’ game is unwinnable and don’t play. It’s all
illustrated with characters from The Office. It’s not really instructive, but
it’s a great read.

~~~
smogcutter
For example:

Sociopath: Adam Neumann

Clueless: middle management types who fully bought in to WeWork’s “vision”

Losers: Everyday employees just trying to make a living and go about their
lives. End up just as hosed as the clueless, but at least they’re not
surprised.

------
harry8
Based only on anecdotal evidence (and yeah the plural of anecdote is not data)
I'd sugges that figure wildy, wildly underestimated.

I'm trying to think if I know /anyone/ over 35 who hasn't? Maybe, but I have
to think quite hard.

~~~
TylerE
It's probably closer to 100%. People quit bosses, not jobs.

~~~
noitsnot
That's a nice meme from LinkedIn but I'm sure there a few other reasons
including a better paycheck, flexibility, or even benefits.

~~~
ryandrake
> paycheck, flexibility, or even benefits

At many, many companies, your manager directly decides or at least influences
all three of these, so if you quit due to them, you're also quitting because
of your manager.

~~~
majormajor
Few direct managers have the ability to give you a raise that a new employer
would, in cases where you're being underpaid relative to the market.

They also rarely have much influence over work flexibility or benefits.

~~~
steelframe
> Few direct managers have the ability to give you a raise that a new employer
> would

I'm usually very up-front with my reports on this. I make it very clear that I
cannot compete with other companies on an immediate short-term compensation
bump, so if they prioritize "money now" over everything else, then they should
go out and interview.

However in the four years that I was a manager at my previous company, nobody
on my team ever took me up on the advice to switch companies to get more money
faster.

~~~
const_throwaway
>immediate short-term compensation bump

Did you believe you could deliver better long term compensation? This phrasing
suggests that, it's a clever way to suggest something without promising it.

~~~
steelframe
> Did you believe you could deliver better long term compensation?

Usually, but not always. Of course it's impossible to predict 4+ years into
the future, because so many factors can come into play on that time scale.

------
sorum
Funny how little things change. In their 1999 book "First, Break All the
Rules", Gallup laid out their findings from over 1M interviews that:

\- People join companies for the vision, brand, comp etc...but they leave
because of their direct manager

\- The direct manager determines how long an employee stays and how productive
he/she is during their tenure

The 2 main parts of the book look at:

a) how you attract and retain the most __talented __employees, what things
matter to them the most (compensation didn 't make the cut)

b) traits of great managers

Book still holds up, worth a read:
[https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/50937.First_Break_All_th...](https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/50937.First_Break_All_the_Rules)

------
Guthur
If you enjoy your work then the next thing that's going to likely drive you
from your job is a human factor and which human will you consistently have to
interact with, your manager. And so it does in some way stand to reason.

Also as a middle manager I can relate to some of the struggles. You will have
potentially competing points of view from what your team would like to do and
what the company wants them to do.

But also as an additional point of view. As a manager you may have worked your
way up the hierarchy learning your craft and honing your skills. Unfortunately
very few of these may actually relate to management but at some point you
reach that level of seniority and then the company says "here's a team, I'm
sure you'll be fine" and leaves it at that very little training or coaching
you just now have to learn on the job. Unfortunately unwinding mistakes at a
managerial level is very difficult because it invariably had that human
component and sometimes we struggle to forgive and forget.

~~~
digsy
>Unfortunately very few of these may actually relate to management but at some
point you reach that level of seniority and then the company says "here's a
team, I'm sure you'll be fine" and leaves it at that very little training or
coaching you just now have to learn on the job.

Thats my experience.

Being a manager of role x is not the same as being in role x.

Becoming a manager is a career change.

------
rexpop
Managerial abuse is endemic to industry. It's simply in the businesses medium-
term favor to 1) punish employees for exercising freedoms, 2) instill fear,
and 3) reify management's power fantasies.

It's like any abusive relationship[1], only compounded by the profit motive.

> It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary
> depends on his not understanding it.

― Upton Sinclair

1\.
[https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/224552.Why_Does_He_Do_Th...](https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/224552.Why_Does_He_Do_That_)

------
kentbrew
Key passage from my last two letters of resignation: "There is exactly one
person in the world who is allowed to speak to me in that tone of voice, and I
am MARRIED TO THAT PERSON."

------
sys_64738
I remember asking my manager to stop talking over me in a con-call. I was gone
within a month

~~~
SteveNuts
Were you fired or did you quit?

~~~
sys_64738
I had a 1:1 with the manager shortly after that meeting where we discussed me
telling the manager to 'shut up'. I quickly made alternate arrangements before
I got the boot.

------
jmpman
I’ve quit because my boss didn’t have the political clout to protect our team
from the expected next wave of corporate mandated layoffs.

------
aitchnyu
I wish we talked more about being boiled slowly. I quit on the spot when the
boss called a meeting of all 30 employees to replace my code with his, while
being connected to a projector. But for months, I've believed my coding skills
could help me outdo his favourite two and win some freedom. I'm so thankful
for the last incident as the wakeup call. The other board members I never met
(yes he was CTO) promised he will be kicked out. They removed my two month
notice period (minimum for India).

------
leftyted
Clearly there are bad bosses. But there are also bad employees and a good boss
probably seems like a bad boss to a bad employee.

------
quantified
I hadn’t ever until recently. Openly hostile and toxic specifically towards
me. Not my imagination, co-workers would periodically come up to me and ask me
what her problem was with me. There is a company culture that protects bad
behavior from the few bad actors. One bad boss was stronger than 40+ great
coworkers.

------
rdiddly
The other half doesn't want it to somehow get back to their old manager, that
they left to escape them!

------
cmdshiftf4
The definition of a "bad" boss is totally subjective and at the mercy of an
individual's motivations at a given point in time.

Some bosses are bad in a sense that they conduct or behave themselves in ways
that transgress laws, but they'd be a minority of those deemed "bad".

------
thomasjudge
It's probably higher than that...

------
baldfat
"People leave managers, not companies"

[https://getlighthouse.com/blog/people-leave-managers-not-
com...](https://getlighthouse.com/blog/people-leave-managers-not-companies/)

------
ska
That seems surprisingly low.

------
shadowtree
Sure, but it takes two to tango. Humans are great in selective memories, post-
facto rationalizing their own failings.

Once you've been a manager you'll understand the other side of this.

~~~
rgoulter
I think good people try to take responsibility for themselves before blaming
others. So, yeah.

But the manager has more power than subordinates, so it's not quite symmetric.
-- I don't often hear of managers leaving because of bad subordinates.

------
annoyingnoob
I've left jobs for two reasons: 1\. I got a much better offer, unsolicited 2\.
The company had no future, which maybe is due to management but not a
particular manager.

------
sarcasmatwork
Last job was because of low pay and bad leadership. Fortunate I was able to
move internally to another group with a pay increase.

------
steelframe
Can we get a (2015) tag on this?

------
notadoc
There are tons of horrible managers (and horrible employees) out there, do
your best to avoid them.

------
vwuon
That's cool because it means you can actually do that if your manager is bad.
In some countries there are no jobs so all you can do about having a bad
manager is... nothing.

~~~
standardUser
That is true in the US for a lot of people, and it was especially true during
the recession. The fact that we've been in a situation where most skilled
workers can easily job hop for that last 5 or so years is an aberration, not
the norm! And frankly, we should probably take advantage of the situation
while we still can.

~~~
JohnFen
> The fact that we've been in a situation where most skilled workers can
> easily job hop for that last 5 or so years is an aberration, not the norm

Are you talking about workers in general, or software development in
particular?

In software development, I don't remember a time in the last three decades
where a skilled dev couldn't find other employment with relatively little
trouble. Of course, in some periods it was easier than in others.

~~~
const_throwaway
I was a dishwasher/line cook in my 20's, I could hop jobs on a dime. Got fired
one Friday, and had a better paying job Monday and that was in 2008. I wasn't
even that good.

------
m00dy
There are a lot of people over 40 in tech and some of them are ignorant. They
try to manage something they don't know or can't fully understand. I think
that's one of the reasons.

~~~
Infinitesimus
That ageism is unnecessary here. You could equally say there are a lot of
people under 40 and a lot of them are ignorant and do not understand business
goals.

Experience is a pretty good teacher in a lot of cases and a good manager must
handle the balance between their own knowledge limits and learning how to
enable their team effectively use their varying skills to deliver results.

~~~
GoToRO
How is that ageism? the older you are the more experience one would expect you
to have. If you are over 40 and you learned nothing then what did you do?
Younger people that have no experience... well that's to be expected.

