
A 22-year-old anti-Nazi song tops German charts again – to welcome refugees - evpuneq
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2015/09/04/a-22-year-old-anti-nazi-song-tops-german-charts-again-to-welcome-refugees/
======
generic_user
There is a coordinated media attempt across the EU to spin positive
'messaging' onto the refugee crisis. But make no mistake this is a total
disaster for the refugees, member state Citizens and the EU bureaucracy. The
EU has been exposed once again as an incompetent overreaching poorly though
dangerously romantic mistake.

Continuous failures of ECB policy, the collapse of Greece under the EURO, the
PIGS in serious trouble, add a totally uncontrolled mass refugee crisis, the
entire EU project looks like an incompetent bureaucratic mess.

The damage is so great that Even China and Russia have managed to claim the
moral high ground and quit rightly blame the crisis on the EU itself and NATO
adventurism in Syria.

I do not think rehashing WW2 German collective guilt as a media spectacle is
going to change the perceptions of anyone paying attention to this horrible
situation.

~~~
mahouse
What I don't understand is why us Europeans have to pay for the adventurism of
the NATO; I wish all the refugees moved to Israel and the US, to be honest.

Once again Putin is right, and this uncovers how a permanent conflict at the
arab world is in the interest of the NATO and the US/Israel-aligned world
overall.

~~~
mineshaftgap
You do realize that Europe is part of the US aligned world and the only thing
preventing Europe from becoming Putin's playground is NATO?

~~~
joeyspn
Aligned? That's why they won't allow us Europeans to vote NO to TTIP and they
have to discuss and approve it in secrecy. The citizens of Europe are not
aligned with anyone. We've had enough with two WW.

~~~
mineshaftgap
Holy fuck people get confused. Exactly how are Americans stopping you from
voting? You don't think Europe and the US are aligned? Hate can be blinding.
Has a there ever been even a single EU candidate that ran on an anti-US
platform? If not why not?

~~~
joeyspn
> Exactly how are Americans stopping you from voting?

Who said “Americans”? I’m just saying “they”, and “they” are the bribed
politicians [0] (both in the US and Europe). “They” don’t want us to vote [1]
because they know _We (the citizens) are not aligned_ with everything that USA
or ANYONE says and does.

> Hate can be blinding. Has a there ever been even a single EU candidate that
> ran on an anti-US platform?

LOL, who is telling you that being neutral is being anti-american? chillax
dude. I’m just anti-war and anti-media-bullshit, like any libertarian able to
read between the lines (even american ones [2]).

Get your facts straight.

[0] [http://venturebeat.com/2015/09/04/creative-commons-
founder-l...](http://venturebeat.com/2015/09/04/creative-commons-founder-
larry-lessig-is-running-for-president-the-system-is-rigged/)

[1] [http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2014/09/ttip-biggest-
th...](http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2014/09/ttip-biggest-threat-
democracy-youve-never-heard)

[2] [http://www.ronpaulinstitute.org/](http://www.ronpaulinstitute.org/)

~~~
tzs
There is no vote on TPIP because there is no TPIP. When negotiators agree on
what TPIP is, so that there is actually something to vote on, it will be voted
on by whatever body normally votes on laws in most countries.

------
babuskov
Meanwhile, Hungary has finished building the wall and is now adding more
soldiers to EU-Serbia border and blocking the central train station in
Budapest to stop people from going further.

[http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jun/22/migrants-
hungar...](http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jun/22/migrants-hungary-
border-fence-wall-serbia)

[http://news.sky.com/story/1544753/migrants-spend-night-
outsi...](http://news.sky.com/story/1544753/migrants-spend-night-outside-
budapest-station)

~~~
dogma1138
What I'm wondering about is if Germany and other EU countries don't mind
taking the migrants with Merkel pledging to absorb as much as 800,000 of them
why did Hungary closed it's rail system? Hungary doesn't want them, they use
trains to get to Austria and Germany why close their only effective route to
transport them to where they would be apparently accepted?

As some one who loathes conspiracy theories even I'm starting to wonder if
Germany is pretty much threatening Hungary to prevent them from releasing the
flood into central Europe while declaring that they'll take anyone who gets to
Germany to appease voters. Because honestly I don't really see any other
explanation to why countries like Hungary and even Italy (which prevents them
from getting on trains to Switzerland) actually seem to keep the migrants
forcibly within their territory while clearly not wanting them anywhere near
it.

~~~
nonidit
Because it is against European law to forward them. The so called "Dublin
regulation" states, that refugees have to seek asylum in the first European
state in which they arrive.

Obviously this law largely benefits the midlands and wouldn't work with the
current crisis. But nevertheless it is still the official law. So Hungary can
only lose in this situation, either by stopping the trains or by breaking the
law.

~~~
dogma1138
Hungary has suspended the application of the Dublin Regulation a month ago, it
wasn't a signatory either. But non the less the Dublin regulation stated the
the country in which the refugees register is responsible for them, it didn't
state that they should be denied freedom of movement and the suspension of the
train system by the Hungarian authorities was seen as a breach of the Dublin
agreement as well.

~~~
nonidit
I hope you don't just want to argue...

"Article 10 1\. Where it is established, on the basis of proof or
circumstantial evidence as described in the two lists mentioned in Article
18(3), including the data referred to in Chapter III of Regulation (EC) No
2725/2000, that an asylum seeker has irregularly crossed the border into a
Member State by land, sea or air having come from a third country, the Member
State thus entered shall be responsible for examining the application for
asylum. This responsibility shall cease 12 months after the date on which the
irregular border crossing took place."

Therefore the first state entered is responsible for the registration and then
for the application for asylum.

And no, the Dublin regulation doesn't state denial of freedom of movement. But
they never had such. The Schengen law is only valid for members of the
European Union. Everyone else has to get a visum. They were legally not
allowed to enter Hungary in the first place, why would they be allowed then to
enter another state without getting asylum first?

------
hwh
To make it clear: that song is not really focused on welcoming refugees
(though the band playing it really supports that cause, too). That song is
very specifically targeted at pointing towards the haters and criticizing
their hate.

~~~
cronjobber
The whole situation is extremely close to being a civil war.

The "haters" are _ridicuously_ outgunned with the full power of both the media
and the state arrayed against them, so they will lose. The imbalance serves to
mask the nature of the conflict, makes it look unlike a classic civil war. Not
enough carnage.

------
Asbostos
Has there ever been a case where a country received too many refugees and its
economy deteriorated as a consequence? People provide labor which is what
causes economic growth. They're the most valuable thing a country can have if
it's not flooded with oil or similar natural resources. Of course there may be
a lag as skills don't match demand, but that'll close up over time.

~~~
marincounty
"Has there ever been a case where a country received too many refugees and its
economy deteriorated as a consequence? People provide labor which is what
causes economic growth."

I'll get hammered for this, but it depends on the country? I probally
shouldn't comment because I'll be labeled a racist?

Right now Canada is offering certain refuges $8000 to leave. I don't think
they are being mean? They are just concerned about the long term consequences?
Or, they are racists? See--there's just no way to discuss it?

I see the way the good liberal people of San Francisco step over the Homeless,
constantly complain, harass, and arrest these poor people; what would that
liberal city do with thousands of broke refugees arriving daily, all using the
Starbuck's restrooms, and sleeping in Golden Gate Park?

Those rich Arab countries should be doing what Jordan is doing? Then again,
their economies are horrid, and have huge unemployment rates. (horrid for the
average citizen)

------
jfaucett
There is so much media coordinated bull floating around in the EU and Germany
right now it makes me sick. As a tax paying immigrant to Germany myself, I
decided to look up the stats a little while ago and here's what the down and
dirty actually looks like:

From 01.01.2015 until 31.07.2015 - we've gotten a total 195,723 Refugees, an
estimated 500,000 will arrive for 2015.[1] Estimated costs will be around 5
Billion. For a comparison the Hartz 4 (Social Welfare System) had a total of
about 32 Billion in 2013. [3]. Of all the refugees the majority come from
Syria (~22%), and Irak / Afghanistan (~10%), which are countries with ongoing
conflicts. [2] 39% of the refugees are coming from (Serbia / Kosovo /
Macedonia / Albania), which have no listed ongoing conflicts according to
wikipedia. The rest come from various countries the world over with around
1.7% from Nigeria and another 1.7% from Pakistan, which also both have ongoing
conflicts.

So those are the facts, according to wikipedia and the BAMF (Office for
Refugees and Immigration).

Now for the IMHO part :) The biggest problem currently with the whole thing is
that we've known about this issue for a very long time [4], and no one
prepared at all.

Even now nobody seems to have a plan about what to do with the refugees once
they get here except give them food, housing, and living money, which
personally I have no problem with as long as there is a plan to assimilate
them into society, teach them german, get them jobs, etc. Why do I think some
germans are upset? I think a lot of people have problems with the fact that
this seems like another Hartz 4 type system where german tax dollars are going
to pay for people who sit in the house all day and sponge off the system.
Also, I think the media is just making this perception worse by showing
thousands of refugees sitting around in camps or walking into Germany where
they immediately get handouts. Also its easier to rationalize a Harz 4 system
when its for "yourself" i.e. family or other native germans who have also paid
money and hard work into the system. It becomes less and less easier to
rationalize this goodwill when you're giving handouts to people from other
european countries (yes, as a EU citizen you can get on german Harz 4 if you
want), and even less still when the people don't aren't even part of the EU.
At least thats what I think is actually going on here with the negative
attitudes...

There are open commercials against "foreigner hate" but seriously who would
have a problem with this if instead of those commercials they would just show
the refugees getting jobs and starting to work?

References:

1\.
[https://www.bamf.de/SharedDocs/Anlagen/DE/Downloads/Infothek...](https://www.bamf.de/SharedDocs/Anlagen/DE/Downloads/Infothek/Statistik/Asyl/statistik-
anlage-teil-4-aktuelle-zahlen-zu-asyl.pdf?__blob=publicationFile)

2\.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ongoing_armed_conflict...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ongoing_armed_conflicts)

3\. [http://biaj.de/archiv-kurzmitteilungen/36-texte-biaj-
kurzmit...](http://biaj.de/archiv-kurzmitteilungen/36-texte-biaj-
kurzmitteilungen/330-hartz-iv-ausgaben-des-bundes-2012-1274-mrd-euro-weniger-
als-2011-974-mio-euro-unter-soll.html)

4\.
[http://www.welt.de/debatte/kommentare/article132511959/Die-s...](http://www.welt.de/debatte/kommentare/article132511959/Die-
schmerzhafte-Wahrheit-zum-Fluechtlingsproblem.html)

~~~
mercer
It's indeed a problem. I've lived with flatmates who basically lounged around
for 3+ years on Harz 4, and despite the fact that I am rather left-leaning (to
put it mildly), there were moments where I thought 'if I paid taxes in
Germany, I'd be _really_ pissed off about the fact that my flatmate is using
my tax money to get high all the time and not improve his life in any way'.

Of course, when my rational mind took over I realized that 1) he had some
serious psychological issues that he _was_ trying to address, 2) he lives on
practically nothing, to the point of collecting and returning empty bottles to
get himself a beer, and 3) he's a really warm, caring, awesome guy who shares
what little he has whenever he can, even with a well-paid person like me.

But imagine the situation when 1) someone is not as left-leaning as I am, 2)
someone is faced with 'strangers' benefitting from their tax money, rather
than people they can easily identify with, 3) this 'stranger' is easily
associated with crime and cultural practices and religious beliefs that baffle
me, and, perhaps most importantly 4) I am not working in one of the few areas
of business that still does well (IT) and I'm feeling the economic problems
myself.

I suppose I could add 5) I have a partner and kids and a mortgage and a car
that I cannot just 'ditch' when times get lean.

None of what I'm saying should be taken as any kind of ethical judgment or
opinion. I'm simply expressing my fear of what might happen because of these
issues, and a desire to work toward solutions that benefit all parties
involved, or at least prevent serious consequences.

------
jkot
Lovely, Germany invites people, but demands other countries to take care of
their guests. Social support for immigrants in Germany is higher then median
salary in many EU regions.

~~~
onli
That is not true.

First, Germany has a problem with social support even for Germans, Hartz 4 is
horribly low and injust. Financial social support is one of the problems
currently with the immigrants: It is basically non-existant. No EU region has
a lower median salary than this.

Second, Immigrants are not guests, they are immigrants or fugitives, and
possibly supposed to stay.

Third, Germany demands nothing new from other countries. It is EU law that
they shall be registered in the countries where they arrive, and it is new and
a helping offer to allow those fugitives to continue onwards to Germany.
Otherwise they would have to stay in the country they arrived in. Given the
tone of your comment, I doubt you would prefer that option.

~~~
jpfr
> First, Germany has a problem with social support even for Germans, Hartz 4
> is horribly low and injust.

Hartz 4 (long-term unemplyment aid) is basically what the country can
sustainably pay without getting into the same debt spiral of Greece, etc. It's
enough to survive, but not much more.

> Financial social support is one of the problems currently with the
> immigrants: It is basically non-existant. No EU region has a lower median
> salary than this.

During the processing of their asyl request, immigrants get money for housing,
food, basic medical services and 140 Euro/month for leisure. Once their asyl
request is accepted, they are entitled to the same social aid as any German.
But you need to see money in context. Other European countries have a much
lower cost of living.

> Second, Immigrants are not guests, they are immigrants or fugitives, and
> possibly supposed to stay.

Immigrants who are not fleeing from a humanitarian crisis get denied asyl and
are expelled.

~~~
erikb
Greetings from a German. While everybody discusses if Germany can afford
fugitives and Hartz 4, some more realistic newspapers post that German rich
have become richer and richer over the last 5 years. Until now Germany is
probably one of the countries that gained the most from this century's crises.
It's just that it's not shared properly between all people. Old, sick and
unemployed probably have lost since 2010 because of politics not because of
economic crisis.

