
Why don't black and white Americans live together? - AliCollins
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-35255835
======
sp332
Vi Hart and Nicky Case made an interactive demonstration of how easy it is to
accidentally create segregated neighborhoods:
[http://ncase.me/polygons/](http://ncase.me/polygons/)

~~~
slededit
This analysis clearly doesn't explain everything. If you move bias over to
100% and run the random move simulation segregation quickly falls below 10%.
If the simulation were an accurate view of the world the take-away would be
everyone should become more biased to prevent segregation, a nonsensical
result.

~~~
dwaltrip
Your assessment is incorrect. It falls below 10%, but the majority of the
polygons are "unhappy" and waiting to be randomly moved.

The program gets stuck continually shuffling the polygons around and it looks
like it will never finish (I waited several minutes and no progress was made).
It seems likely that this is because each polygon that is moved has a high
chance of also being "unhappy" at the new random location.

By definition, with 100% bias, the program won't stop until there is full
segregation.

~~~
slededit
Correct, but unbounded continual iteration more cleanly represents real life.
The real flaw in the simulation is the limitation of free space, the world is
a much bigger place.

~~~
dwaltrip
Well, if we are talking about a city, space is often somewhat scarce.
Regardless, I don't think that would reduce segregation.

I think the biggest limitation is "unhappy" polygons moving to random
locations, instead of having some choice in the matter. Reducing this
limitation would result in faster convergence towards a stable, segregated
state, as the choices made would reflect the bias of the participants.

------
neaden
Oak Park is a suburb next to Chicago that managed to integrate fairly well,
but when reading how it happened I was struck at how draconian it was handled.
They purposefully wanted an integrated city and tried to sotftly limit or
"steer" how many Black people moved in, and to spread them throughout the
whole city. There were restrictions on who could sell your home. For sale
signs were banned even. They expanded the police force to assure people they
would still be safe. In short they used quite a bit of government force to
establish an integrated city with no noticeable Black or White area. And it
worked, even today it's one of the most integrated suburbs of the city. I'm
honestly not sure what lesson we should take from it.

~~~
negamax
Same policy in Singapore. All government houses is distributed as such that
people from all backgrounds (religions) get intermingled.

~~~
neaden
Does this try to prevent immigrant neighborhoods from forming as well? In the
US at least my perception is that immigrant neighborhoods that mainly have
first and second generation residents are viewed much more favorably even
though they are a form of segregation. The upshot is they allow people to find
others that speak their language and stores that sell their food.

~~~
negamax
My understanding is that this policy is enforced on government housing. Which
is really well done and highly subsidised. Many immigrants rent such units,
and that does help them understanding the country better

------
smallnamespace
All you need for self-segregation to occur is that individuals don't want to
be a small minority in their local area.

As people exercise that preference by moving around, they will create enclaves
where certain groups dominate.

[http://nifty.stanford.edu/2014/mccown-schelling-model-
segreg...](http://nifty.stanford.edu/2014/mccown-schelling-model-segregation/)

[http://www.citylab.com/design/2014/12/an-immersive-game-
show...](http://www.citylab.com/design/2014/12/an-immersive-game-shows-how-
easily-segregation-arisesand-how-we-might-fix-it/383586/)

~~~
coldtea
> _All you need for self-segregation to occur is that individuals don 't want
> to be a small minority in their local area._

If that was the case (or enough), we wouldn't have this:

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racial_steering](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racial_steering)

and this:

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Housing_segregation_in_the_Uni...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Housing_segregation_in_the_United_States)

I don't think many blacks care of being a "small minority" on a posh white
neighborhood...

~~~
nostrademons
Not necessarily. It's possible for individuals to not want to be a small
minority in their local area _and_ for real estate brokers to steer them away
from the area. There's no rule against overkill.

~~~
coldtea
Possible yes. The case? I doubt.

------
mudil
Tribalism is a natural human condition (maybe it's an instinct, I don't know).
It's integral part of us. Comes from evolution, really. Everybody hates
everybody. Heck, Russians and Ukrainians hate each other, and you wouldn't
find more similar groups of people. (I am from Ukraine.) To deny human
tribalism is to deny reality. We need to fight tribalism and hatred but
unfortunately it's not going away.

So, the question is why we constantly hear about one minority but not the
others? After all, we have people of all colors and origins in America from
Chinese and Indian, to Russian and Samoan.

My feeling is that blacks have been highjacked by politicos and turned into
pawn for political games. And the result is that children and families suffer.
How is it not failure of political science that 72% of black kids are born to
single mothers? Blame Republicans all you want, but blacks are represented by
the Democrats on all levels of government, from city to state to Congress. How
is it not a failure of representation?

I think if we get politicos from dividing us, everyone will benefit,
especially blacks.

~~~
redwards510
Yes, I don't understand the logic of how people can push identity politics and
yet also be against racism/segregation.

------
llamataboot
This was my public policy research area for about a decade. In my mind this
remains one of the best treatments of the topic:

American Apartheid: Segregation and the Making of the Underclass - Massey and
Denton

[https://www.amazon.com/American-Apartheid-Segregation-
Making...](https://www.amazon.com/American-Apartheid-Segregation-Making-
Underclass/dp/0674018214)

------
aidenn0
The town where I live (SoCal) has 14 elementary schools. Only two of them are
between 20% and 80% hispanic student population, with the other 12 in the
outer two quintiles.

At least some of this is due to economic reasons. It's about $200k extra on a
3BR house to go from a "bad" school zone to a "good" school zone. That has
fall-on effects that includes gerrymandering. The school boundaries are very
much not compact. I know of at least one boy who walks through areas zoned for
another school to get to his school.

The differences are so extreme, that I have mentioned multiple times that if
you were to replace "California" with "Virginia" and "hispanic" with "black"
you would have federally mandated cross-town busing of students.

~~~
ryandrake
It's a vicious cycle: good schools -> increase demand -> high home prices ->
affluent residents -> more tax revenue -> better schools -> repeat

The reverse happens with bad schools.

~~~
alkonaut
Is school funding distributed in such a small district that tax revenue in the
district itself affects the school budget?

~~~
pcl
That is often the case in the US, yes.

A recent court ruling in Connecticut may change that, at least in that state.
Some links:

[https://www.google.com/amp/mobile.nytimes.com/2016/09/08/nyr...](https://www.google.com/amp/mobile.nytimes.com/2016/09/08/nyregion/connecticut-
public-schools-inequality-judge-orders.amp.html)

[https://www.google.com/amp/mobile.nytimes.com/2016/09/12/nyr...](https://www.google.com/amp/mobile.nytimes.com/2016/09/12/nyregion/in-
connecticut-a-wealth-gap-divides-neighboring-schools.amp.html)

[http://mobile.nytimes.com/2016/09/16/nyregion/connecticut-
ed...](http://mobile.nytimes.com/2016/09/16/nyregion/connecticut-education-
ruling-appeal.html)

~~~
gwright
And yet in Connecticut there are many well regarded school systems in affluent
towns that spend about the same per student than the failing schools in
Connecticut cities.

[http://www.courant.com/data-desk/hc-in-perpupil-spending-
con...](http://www.courant.com/data-desk/hc-in-perpupil-spending-connecticut-
ranks-high-20150602-htmlstory.html) [https://k12.niche.com/rankings/public-
school-districts/best-...](https://k12.niche.com/rankings/public-school-
districts/best-overall/s/connecticut/)

Cities: Waterbury ($15,859), Hartford ($18,397), Bridgeport ($15,228),
Stamford (18,188), and New Haven ($17,084) spend on average $16,951 per
student.

Some well-regarded suburban school districts: Simsbury ($15,969), Ridgefield
($17,315), Glastonbury ($15,481), West Hartford ($15,720), for an average of
$16,121.

Clearly there is something going on beyond the dollars spent per student.

------
maerF0x0
Originally from Canada, now in the USA. I've noticed palpable distrust and
hatred on both sides of the street. Its not just that whites are racist
against blacks, its the total breakdown of trust on both sides of the coin,
leading to social exclusion. Just as a black person may have trouble breaking
into a white man's only club, a white person would have no possibility of
entering black only spheres w/o experiencing racism as well. IMO the only
solution is deeply intentional integration such that all classes and colors
begin to experience all aspects of life together, ultimately including
marriage and child birth. Until we see "them" as "us" there will be
allegiances.

------
Symbiote
The maps led me to wondering what a similar diagram of cities in the UK would
look like, and I found a map of England and Wales with dots coloured by race.

It's much more mixed. Where black/white/asian areas still exist the boundaries
tend to be pretty blurred.

[http://projects.andrewwhitby.com/uk-ethnicity-
map/](http://projects.andrewwhitby.com/uk-ethnicity-map/)

~~~
clock_tower
In the UK's case, I'd think that you'd see relatively little race-based self-
segregation but a lot of class-based; I've always heard that the UK is
classist but not very racist, and that non-whites tend to be higher-class than
a lot of the locals.

------
jasode
If you want to explore more areas than just the 4 cities in the article, this
demographic map based on 2010 US Census data has a plot of race:

[http://demographics.coopercenter.org/DotMap/index.html](http://demographics.coopercenter.org/DotMap/index.html)

(it's zoomable)

~~~
13of40
Just looking at the map, the ten mile radius around where I work seems like
it's got several sharply segregated areas full of Asian people. From the
ground, I know those areas are just apartment complexes where (highly skilled
and not at all impoverished) Indian people on temporary work visas tend to
stay, and most of them would probably be able to buy a house on my block if
they intended to be here permanently. The west side of the city has some old-
fashioned segregation, though.

------
overcast
Black, and white families, are nearly every other house in my Upstate New York
neighborhood.

------
ausjke
it's more about economic status instead of colors? also there is some culture
difference as well, “Birds of a feather flock together", maybe it's just
natural and has nothing to do with the political pov.

~~~
bdamm
Some places even embrace that approach. Canada, for example.

~~~
jkaunisv1
Ehn, we're pretty segregated too. You notice a big difference in racial
distributions going to different malls and bus stations, especially outside of
the downtown core (at least in the nation's capital where I live). Not to
mention the white/indigenous divide that is particularly prominent in our
prairie provinces. Winnipeg has a literal wrong side of the tracks.

------
nostrademons
'According to the Brookings report, "more than half of blacks would need to
move to achieve complete integration". Some have pointed out that the wording
of this part of the report itself highlights the challenges in these issues -
why can't this be measured in the number of whites who would have to move?'

Because that would be a much less catchy soundbite. Assuming a 1:1 black-white
switch, and that the population of the U.S. is 12% black and 72% white, then
roughly 8% of whites would have to move to achieve racial integration.

~~~
baddox
Assuming a simplistic model where households swap locations (without handling
population growth and new housing), a black household would have to move for
every white household that moves.

~~~
nostrademons
Exactly - that's how I got the numbers above. 50% of the black population = 6%
of the total population = 8.3% of the white population. My point is to assume
self-interest on the part of the publication; it may or may not be
representative of deeper unconscious bias in the population (there's no rule
against _both_ self-interest and unconscious bias being true), but a simpler
explanation is that the Brookings Institute wanted to make their finding sound
more dramatic.

Incidentally, phrasing it as "8% of whites need to consciously seek out
diversity to end racial segregation" makes the problem seem eminently
solvable.

~~~
baddox
It seems reasonable to give the 50% statistic, because it may show why blacks
may be more reluctant or unable to participate in this mass movement. It's
easy for a white person to say sure, let's move, given that there's only an 8%
chance of any specific white person having to actually move.

------
Kluny
It seems like there's a business opportunity for someone who wants to set up a
lending company that offers black families fair and favorable terms on
mortgages.

~~~
jtchang
Why would there be a business opportunity here? Banks can already do this but
they don't. Maybe it is more risky so they charge higher rates.

~~~
maerF0x0
Or maybe racism falsely informs that risk model? If that's the case then one
can likely deploy capital like its low-risk to "higher-risk" (and thus higher
APR) loans. Of course competition will eventually destroy this model, but
initially it could be profitable.

~~~
angry-hacker
I don't think the models for giving loans are racist, they are based on facts
and reality.

~~~
pwinnski
Sadly, this is demonstrably untrue. A purely-math-based approach would still
bear the weight of past racist policies and their residual effects, but that's
not even what we have today.

------
andrenotgiant
What countries/cities worldwide are the least racially segregated?

------
wppick
Did the article answer the question of why black and white Americans don't
live together? I didn't seem to see any theories besides saying that real
estate agents wouldn't show one black couple houses in the white
neighborhoods.

How does black American integration compare with Chinese American integration,
and what can we learn from that?

Is there a bigger, subconscious (possibly genetic) reason why black and whites
don't live together? Or is it simply due to the the events of American
history?

~~~
nostrademons
(Half-Chinese here, with an immigrant parent on the Chinese side.)

Interestingly, Asian-American integration seems to happen only within higher
socioeconomic classes. Asian-Americans as a group seem bifurcated into South
or East Asians who immigrated into highly-technical, well-paying jobs after
1965 (when U.S. immigration policy opened up to let them in), and East Asians
who came over for things like the California railroads in the late 1800s or
Southeast Asians who arrived as refugees in the 70s and 80s. The latter group
is much more likely to live in Chinatown, work in restaurants or laundromats
rather than software companies, have few friends of other races (indeed,
inner-city Asian-Americans I knew in college seemed more likely to hang out
with the black kids than the white ones), and speak relatively poor English.

This makes me think the root cause is economic. It could have to do with these
groups not being able to afford houses in nicer areas, or it could be people
not wanting to associate with people who they view as a rung down on the
socioeconomic ladder.

------
gravypod
For those who don't live here I'd say a majority of the places, at least here
on the east coast, don't follow this trend. This definitely isn't the case
where I grew up, in New Jersey, and is absolutely incorrect for New York City.

I'd hope that this article would have done a better job in explaining that
this isn't the rule but that these are a few exceptions to such.

~~~
dopamean
> absolutely incorrect for New York City

This is a very, very untrue statement. I grew up in New York and both the city
and Long Island are pretty heavily segregated by race. Yes, there are areas
where there is more integration but by and large blacks live in one area and
whites live in another. Housing costs in the city have made it so that
integration happens for a while in some neighborhoods but really only when
that neighborhood is gentrifying. Post gentrification it ends up being pretty
much just white or, if you're lucky, a mix of upper middle class people of
varying ethnicity but still majority white.

~~~
totalZero
I always kind of assumed there was a constant gentrification effect in cheap
NYC neighborhoods because young people are price sensitive, no matter what
their race or profession.

Ethnic neighborhood is cheap -> Young professionals start to move in ->
Integration begins -> Businesses that cater to young professionals establish
themselves in the neighborhood -> Landlords slowly but steadily increase rent
-> New immigrants and children of existing ethnic tenants move to a different,
less expensive neighborhood

