
Ask HN: Tips for learning a foreign language - yanis
As learning a new foreign language is a mental task which can be improved by practice does anybody have any tips from previous experience?
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pasbesoin
Acquisition begins before/below the level of words. Find some contemporary
music in the language that you like and that has vocals, and listen to it a
lot. Learn the sound of the language.

(Especially once you gain some fluency) Allow yourself to "draw a blank" when
using/speaking the language, rather than immediately thinking of the
corresponding term in your native language. This will help you to really be in
the language. It can also, in a way, result in a more natural conversation
with a native speaker, if and as that person can guess what your talking about
and respond by "filling in the blanks". (And, it's just more fun to pause and
then say, in idiomatic form used in the language: "that...
stuff/thing/dohickey/whatchyamacallit..." . ;-)

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AznHisoka
Read up on what this guy says, and just follow his advice. He talks the talk
and walks the walk: alljapaneseallthetime.com ..this guy basically became
fluent in Japanese in 1.5 years w/o living in Japan, and by fluent, I meant
real fluent.

Basically: 1) Spend first 1-3 months just listening, pure input. Don't even
try to talk. You'll just stress out. Listening will help you pick up the
nuances of the language as well as the flow. You'll also learn idioms, and
normal responses to questions. You can even pick an accent you like and use it
afterwards.

2) Following #1, get yourself a bunch of audio CDs, movies, music of the
foreign language, and just listen to it whenever you're free. And it doesn't
matter if you don't comprehend it (although this shouldn't be the bulk of your
listening). Again, get a sense of the flow of words. The rhythm.. the silence,
etc. It's like listening to a song over and over, and being able to hum the
tune afterwards.

Even when you're in the bathroom taking a dump. Even when you're sleeping if
you want to. Just try and make sure you're listening to that language as much
as possible.

3) Don't kick yourself for learning it so slow. And forget about the notion
that adults learn slower than kids... remember, babies have 4-5 years of
listening experience before they're ever expected to say something half-way
sophisticated. 4-5 years! That's a lot! Babies suck at learning languages!!

~~~
wavetossed
YES YES YES to number 3.

My theory is adults learn languages so slowly because they actually never try
to learn. Two reasons for this. a) Adults typically do not know how to learn
period. b) Adults have been conditioned to do the wrong things in attempting
to learn and all books and courses are built around these wrong ideas.

Most important way to evaluate your learning is to ask yourself "Do I feel
like a stupid idiot as I do this?" If the answer is YES, then you are
learning. Keep it up and get to love your stupid idiot self. In time the
clouds will clear and you will not be stupid anymore. Lots of people have
warped adult egos which simply cannot accept these feelings of stupidity. Some
people actually kill themselves because of this, others drop the studying
entirely, and others soldier through and learn nothing because they have not
accepted the feelings of stupidity and moved forward in spite of it.

------
Todd
Linking to a question from a year and a half ago:

<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1603562>

There are several good answers here.

~~~
pasbesoin
There have been several other HN threads on this topic, as well, if you
(original poster) want to have a look for them.

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wavetossed
Be careful with online translators. They often warp the meanings of things. I
find them most useful using this process.

First read the text (a few sentences) in the foreign language. Then run it
through the translator, because you can only understand half of it and there
are some key words that have you lost. Read the English translation keeping in
mind that it is WRONG. However it will have clues about the structure of
sentences, the meaning of unfamiliar words, etc. In this step you are not
learning the foreign language, you are learning some POSSIBLE solutions to the
problem of understanding the text.

Now go back and read the foreign language text from the top. You will find
that miraculously your brain can now read and understand it almost 100%.
Occasionally you will be forced to check the dictionary for a word that
suffers from the problem discovered in 1966 when researchers ran "The spirit
is willing but the flesh is weak" through and English-Russian translator and
then back again through a Russian English translator. They got back "The vodka
is good but the meat is rotten".

I also used this back and forth translation to check my Russian letters before
I sent them. I wrote in Russian without a dictionary, then translated it back
into English with an online translator. I often found words where I had chosen
the wrong one of several possibilities.

Nowadays when people ask me "What is the X language word for Y?" I say, it
cannot be translated. In general it is not possible to translate an English
word into another language or vice versa. That is why I recommend keeping
phrase lists rather than word lists because you get a bit of context which is
what determines meanings.

When you use a dictionary and there are 10 possible translations for "find",
look up each of the possibilities in the foreign language section and you will
not only find the best word to express what you mean, you will also learn how
fuzzy a lot of our English words are, and don't ask me about "get" and "put".

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robdoherty2
I think it depends to a great extent on your particular learning style.

Based on my own experience, I would recommend a few things:

1) Get a conversation partner, ideally someone local you can meet with at
least once per week for an hour or so.

2) Immerse yourself in the culture as much as you can. Watch movies in the
target language (TL); when you feel ready keep a journal in the TL, even with
simple sentences; go to restaurants that serve cuisine from the places where
the TL is spoken.

3) Keep a notebook (electronic or paper) in which you write down
unfamiliar/new words as you come across them. Look them up and learn their
meanings when you are able.

4) In terms of pronunciation, figure out which sounds are similar and
different between your native language and the TL. Practice your 'speaking'
muscles to try to produce the phonemes of the TL.

5) Don't worry about making mistakes.

The main thing is to constantly push yourself to express yourself in the new
language.

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S4M
One tip that has worked for me when I was learning English (I am native French
speaker) is to read in the languages I wanted to learn books I already read in
my native language, and I liked. That way I didn't have to look for words in
the dictionary all the time because I already knew what the author wanted to
say, plus I had the satisfaction of reading the original text which is always
better than a translation!

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bartonfink
I used to know a Chinese man who learned English by watching American
television shows with Chinese subtitles. He watched something like 40 hours of
television a week this way for six months, and on the other side of it he was
conversant in English.

------
thhaar
French/Swedish translator here.

. I learned by living in the other countries. Semi-immersion in your home
country is possible (movies, books, tutor, conversation exchange) but harder.

. What's your goal? Business, pleasure? Focus on finding the vocab you need to
know and figuring out what level you'll need to reach.

. _Fluency_ in itself isn't a true state - ability to communicate clearly is
the best gauge, most of the time this means spoken communication. This can
range from simple formalities to industry-specific negotiations.

. Traditional reading and writing exercises are only useful to learn the
language framework, i.e. its basic grammar. Try to get these out of the way
quickly, and use them more as a reference.

. Modern novel reading is good for vocab and cementing grammar knowledge, as
well as being amusing.

. IMO the key to the most important communication channel is learning to speak
in a way that is received loud and clear by a native. This means learning the
sounds of the language, phonetics, and seeing where they differ to your own
sound-bank. A recent blog experiment I read about
[<http://www.xamuel.com/french-in-30-days-day-30/>] made some interesting
discoveries - his intensive daily learning only resulted in an understanding
of many single words. His actual communication skills weren't functional. I'd
say that they could have been, had he focused on the right things. I left my
further thoughts on the linked page.

. You can do all you need to for effective learning every day, just by living
in the foreign country, with no need for reminders - but this is of course
rarely practical.

. A further key point: learn to hear the fixed expressions that are used in
common speech. With enough of these you can sail through most situations and
even learn to ask for help when stuck on something.

. Do not try to word-for-word translate what you want to say in the target
language, find the fixed expression for what you want to say. This takes time,
and a fair bit of practice, but what doesn't?

. Flashcards give the false impression of learning to communicate. I would
avoid these unless they contained fixed, common expressions. Even if they
offer spaced repetition, which seems to work well, they encourage the wrong
kind of learning. Yes, adults can take shortcuts to learn faster than
children/babies, but they still must learn the 'codes' of communication in the
culture and language.

I'm working on a system that incorporates these points in an audio format, but
it's yet to be tested and I've no idea if even that could work as intended. So
far, no silver bullet.

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D_Alex
Something a bit different: I got a real boost in learning English and later
French by reading Tintin and Asterix comics!

~~~
ifearthenight
I can second this. Currently learning Swedish. Re-reading some Roald Dahl at
the moment and finding it a lot more effective and most importantly fun. Have
also bought the Watchmen comics to help motivate me to get to a more advanced
level.

------
wavetossed
Native language is English, French and Spanish in high school. German and
Russian in university. I can read books written at an adult level in French,
high school level in Spanish. I've used French in sales meetings with
customers in Paris, and once I even presented a solution in French on my own.
Learned German to an advanced level through company lessons (in London) and
podcasts from Deutsche Welle. I am almost fluent in Russian, have traveled
independently in Russia and Ukraine, romanced a girl on the phone in Russian,
then visited her and ultimately married her. I say almost fluent because
although I can watch Russian films and TV, I stumble with business/work
scenarios. 10 years ago I was at the "almost fluent" level with Spanish after
living in the Bay Area, CA, listening to hispanic radio on my commutes,
reading the free Spanish language newspapers, and chatting (or ordering) in
Spanish in every shop or restaurant that I visited. I am also competent enough
in Italian to have traveled independently in Italy twice, once without even
reserving a hotel in advance. I also spent two weeks in Bulgaria and was able
to find a bus and wander around the town of Varna, shopping and visiting
museums, all on the strenght of the Bulgarian I learned in the month before
travel and by reading books (and listening to people) during the two weeks.

Why the long song and dance? Because I did it and I know how to do it. It is
actually quite simple and is obvious if you think it over a bit. You have to
work at it EVERY day, 365 days a year. Spend an hour or more a day. Find ways
to extend that time whenever you can, for instance turn on the Spanish audio
on a DVD and English subtitles instead of watching TV in English.

Second thing to do is to exercise all of the language senses EVERY DAY! If you
sit down with a language book and spend all day Saturday on a couple of
lessons learning them by heart then you are doing it wrong, wasting your time
and will soon drop the studying entirely.

Every day you must read some of the language. Every day you must write,
preferably full sentences or phrases, not just vocabulary words. For instance
if you learn that sombrero means hat, then write "El muchacho no sabe donde
esta su sombrero" or at least "un sombrero blanco" at the very minimum.

Every day you must listen to the language. In some countries there is easy
access to TV or radio signals, but everyone who can read this can download
podcasts. Listening to the CD that came with a course does not count. Sure, do
listen to the CD, but don't check off listening until you listen to some
language in the wild, so to speak.

Every day you must speak the language. In the beginning you can get away with
reading a page out loud even if you don't understand the words. But preferably
you should be speaking with native speakers. I get a free newspaper handed out
every morning outside the transit station by a Chinese guy so I always say
"Xie xie) which means thank you. When I took my daughter to a birthday party
and entered a room of Chinese girls I said "Ni men hao" which means hello
everyone. Yep, I am working on yet another language since I live in China now
(the North American part commonly called Vancouver BC).

And you must also spend a reasonable chunk of time everyday talking to
imaginary friends entirely in the new language. Don't speak out loud, but hold
the conversation in your head as you walk to the subway, or take a lunchtime
jog. Often you will not be able to fully express your thoughts because you
lack the vocabulary so practice describing what you want to say. For instance,
if you don't know the word tree but want to say "See the bird up in that tree"
then try saying "See the bird up in that big plant, the really high one beside
the park bench. What is that called?" When you get advanced enough, that kind
of mental maneuvering will actually help you recall words that you had once
learned but half forgotten.

Don't fuss over courses. Go to a good bookstore with a wide selection and
browse through the books. Buy one or two whose writer seems to write in a way
that you can understand and will not get bored with. When you are more
advanced look for specific types of books. A comprehensive dictionary. A
grammar book. A vocabulary builder book.

Buy some books written for 8 year olds in the foreign language. Stick to books
written by a native speaker of the language where the action of the story is
set in a country where this language is spoken. Especially avoid books
originally written in English that were translated. When you can get through
one of these, buy some books for 10 year olds, then 12, then 14 year olds.
After that go to adult books. The age thing is important because young people
do not have large vocabularies. Therefore childrens' book editors spend a lot
of time editing books so the child will learn the meaning of new words from
the context. You will learn them too and save much time that would have been
spent with the dictionary.

------
gw666
IMHO,I am eminently qualified to answer this question because I am coming up
on the one-year mark of seriously trying to learn Spanish, mostly on my own.

Up front, let me make this disclosure to perhaps prevent you from freaking out
when you hear how long it's taking me: I'm 58 years old, and the task has been
much more difficult than I expected. If you are significantly younger, you
probably won't take as long as I am taking.

Rather than tell you what I did, I'll describe what I would do now if I had it
to do over again. My experience is this: REPETITION is the only thing that
works. I cannot emphasize this too much.

1) Before you do anything else, get the pronunciation down right. I used an
online course (there are many, and I got this one free through my public
library). I also used one disc of a CD-based language course. Keep practicing
until you get pretty good at it--use a tape recorder to check your work.

2) Buy one or more books in the McGraw-Hill “Practice Makes Perfect” series,
starting with Basic Spanish, followed by Spanish Verb Tenses (both by Dorothy
Richmond). Do every exercise in the book, in order, and check your answers
against the answers in the back of the book. (You can also go online and hear
the correct answers being spoken.) Then use a sheet of paper to hide the
(correct) answers and go over the same exercise items again, and again, and
again.

3) Whenever you learn a new word or phrase, write it down along with its
English translation. Keep these pages and review them.

4) Sometime after you have gotten your pronunciation down correctly, you may
want to take a local or online Spanish class. You'll learn more doing it this
way because, being familiar with pronunciation and spelling, you can struggle
with the language itself. Continue to keep your word list. For each hour of
"class," spend at least an hour of outside study of the same material. I've
used several online courses, which I rate as follows: livemocha.com (best),
mangolanguages.com (good), babbel.com (so-so). Destinos, a story-based video
introduction to Spanish, is at
<http://www.learner.org/resources/series75.html>.

5) The hardest thing for me is learning to speak new sentences on my own,
especially in conversation mode. For this I'm using the Pimsleur audio-only
training CDs. Their idea is to teach entirely through conversation, with
virtually no formal learning--no grammar, and (obviously) no spelling.
Actually, I started with Pimsleur, but blindly repeating strings of phonemes
didn't work for me, so I gave it up. I recently returned to it, now that I
have pronunciation and moderate amounts of grammar and reading ability--and
it's just what I need.

Miscellaneous factoids and advice: The website spanishdict.com is my constant
companion during studying. Don't spend big bucks on anything (for example, I
got my Pimsleur course, used, from eBay). Don't be seduced by any online or
computer course that promises to deliver any level of language proficiency--
only practice, away from the computer, can deliver that.

Take an immersion course in a foreign country if you can. There may be a local
group of language-learners near you.

Flashcard programs can help; on my iPod touch, I use Flashcards Deluxe, and
there are several good open-source programs for your computer. Switch among
various different kinds of practice; variety combats boredom. Practice at
least an hour daily, six days a week. Try different things, and see what works
for you.

Wish me luck--in six more months, I may actually be talking to people.

