
Dr. Elon and Mr. Musk: Life Inside Tesla's Production Hell - nem000
https://www.wired.com/story/elon-musk-tesla-life-inside-gigafactory/
======
dkersten
Yay for at-will employment laws... :-(

> Over the previous year, he had been living out of a suitcase, putting in
> 13-hour days, seven days a week.

This story is a good reminder not to do this. The company will usually not
return the favour, you rarely get properly rewarded for crazy hours, yet it
has a major impact on your health (both mental and physical) in the long run.
Not worth it.

> It was not a 9 to 5 company. People were already working hard; now Musk was
> implying they needed to do more.

No wonder things were going to shit. Nobody can do good work if they don't get
enough rest and have too much stress.

> Three months after that, it would report profits of $312 million, well
> beyond Wall Street’s expectations.

How much of this money did the employees get for all the overtime they were
forced to work?

> Tesla, ... that some aspects were “overly dramatized,” “abbreviated,” and
> “ultimately misleading anecdotes that completely lack essential context.”
> ... “Elon cares very deeply about the people who work at his companies. ...

For the sake of everybody working for him, I really really hope this is true
and not just PR firefighting and that the story misrepresented what actually
happened. I'm not convinced, based on Musk's twitter outbursts and such, but I
still hope this story is mostly false.

~~~
baldfat
> at-will employment laws

I just don't get how we just can't over turn them politically state by state
in State Elections. How is this not a thing? I live in an At Will State (PA)
and it pretty much sucks to have the knowledge I can be fired for any reason
and sure I still can sue but I can still lose even though I am 100% in the
right.

~~~
chrisseaton
> I just don't get how we just can't over turn them politically state by state
> in State Elections. How is this not a thing?

Do most people want to overturn them? I think you're assuming that start state
and it's perhaps not the case.

> I can be fired for any reason

And you can also leave for any reason. It's symmetrical. You don't have this
right in some countries - I'd be careful about volunteering to give it up.

~~~
krapp
>And you can also leave for any reason. It's symmetrical. You don't have this
right in some countries - I'd be careful about volunteering to give it up.

That's not symmetrical, or if it is, it's symmetrical in the same way as
"heads I win, tails you lose." Being fired and quitting both place the
entirety of the risk of unemployment on the employee, there is no
counterbalance of power or risk on the part of the employer.

If health insurance wasn't tied to employment in the US, or if there were
something like UBI, then the dynamics of at-will employment might be at least
_more_ symmetrical.

~~~
chrisseaton
> there is no counterbalance of power or risk on the part of the employer

If there is no power or risk on the part of the employer then why do some
countries have a law requiring that you give the employer a notice period?
It's to reduce their risk.

In my country can sued for their damages if you leave without a notice period
- real damages such as having to hire more expensive temporary staff to do
your job until they can find someone else permanent. That's their risk.

~~~
krapp
Fair enough, some risk exists, and how much probably depends on the position
... although in my country as far as I'm aware, there is no requirement to
give notice (it's just a courtesy) and, of course, no such requirement exists
on the part of employers.

In the linked article, it's mentioned that Elon felt a constant need to fire
people that he sometimes had to be talked down from, so if the employer risk
exists, it doesn't seem to be particularly high in most cases. If the risk for
employers was significant, then at-will employment laws wouldn't even exist,
because the entire purpose of such laws is to make it arbitrarily easy to fire
employees.

The only way at-will employment could truly be symmetrical is if I could walk
into work and literally fire any of my managers or the CEO with the same ease
with which they could fire me.

But of course, _actually_ applying the power dynamic of at-will employment
both ways would just be _insane_ wouldn't it?

------
spuz
One day he will catch an employee stealing, fly into a rage and fire the
entire workforce. He'll lock the iron gates to the factory and sequester
himself from the public eye for several decades sparking all kinds of rumours
about his fate. Then one day he'll announce a competition for children to win
golden tickets to visit his once grand factory and we'll finally discover the
real story of Elon Musk and his Gigafactory.

~~~
grecy
> _Then one day he 'll announce a competition for children to win golden
> tickets to visit his grand factory_

I feel like this is exactly the kind of quirky thing he'd do anyway, without
all that negative stuff.

~~~
InitialLastName
"Every car has a chance of having a winning ticket in the glove compartment"

The only problem is that then they actually have to manufacture enough cars to
drive a competition like that.

~~~
donkeyd
They're producing 7000 Model 3 a week. That's more than any other electric car
currently, as far as I know.

~~~
camjohnson26
Do You have a source for that number, that sounds way too high.

~~~
donkeyd
My bad, they were pushing for it [0]. Actual number according to Bloomberg is
4k [1].

[0] [https://electrek.co/2018/11/15/tesla-
model-3-production-7000...](https://electrek.co/2018/11/15/tesla-
model-3-production-7000-per-week/) [1]
[https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2018-tesla-
tracker/](https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2018-tesla-tracker/)

------
paxys
> Musk “would say ‘I’ve got to fire someone today,’ and I’d say, ‘No you
> don’t,’ and he’d say, ‘No, no, I just do. I’ve got to fire somebody,’ ”

Musk really is the asshole abusive boss who gets a pass because of his media
fame.

I urge anyone in a situation similar to the employees mentioned in the article
to simply quit. Giving up your life and dignity for "the cause" isn't worth
it. You aren't changing the world, just killing yourself to make some rich
people richer.

~~~
wpietri
Speaking of abusive bosses, let me recommend a favorite book:

[https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000Q9J0RO](https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000Q9J0RO)

It's Lundy Bancroft's, "Why Does He Do That? Inside the Minds of Angry and
Controlling Men". It's the single most astute thing I've ever read. The guy
spent more than a decade as a counselor for abusive men, most of them ordered
to him by the courts. It's clear he heard an ocean of bullshit and became very
good at seeing through it.

It's targeted at domestic abuse, but his insights are so clear and well-
explained that it's easy to apply the lessons elsewhere. E.g., a couple of
years back my boss got pushed out, so suddenly I was being managed by his
boss. I walked out of my first meeting with him wondering what the fuck had
just happened; everything I said he jumped on aggressively. But the pattern
rang a bell, so I thumbed through the book. He lists a variety of abuser
styles, and the one called "Mr. Right" fit him perfectly. In one meeting he
hit something like 2/3rds of the items in the checklist.

Had I not read that, I would have probably walked away thinking that the
problem was me, even though my original boss had been happy with me and my
work. Instead, I was prepared for what came next: a couple more abusive
meetings and then a surprise, no-notice "layoff" where I and the other manager
my boss hired were pushed out. (And where we were asked to sign a no-
disparagement clause if we wanted any severance. Seeing it a further abuser-
style manipulation, I passed.)

Over the years I've given away maybe 15 copies of the book, often to people
who were in abusive relationships without recognizing it. If you ever even
begin to wonder, I strongly recommend reading the book.

------
nem000
I posted this article because I'm really afraid that many young entrepreneurs
take Elon Musk (and Steve Jobs, etc.) as role models and get the impression
that in order to be successful you have to be an abusive brick.

I've recently read Walter Isaacson's "The Innovators" and there seem to be at
least a couple of counterexamples (Robert Noyce for instance). Any other
examples of tech leaders who lead their companies in a friendly and open
manner and are successful despite (or probably because) of that?

~~~
arethuza
You see the same debates about military leadership - some very famous military
leaders were apparently pretty unpleasant at a personal level - then at the
other end of the spectrum you have people like Leonard Cheshire who was tough
but thoroughly decent and treated everyone at all levels with respect:

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leonard_Cheshire](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leonard_Cheshire)

Edit:

Worth reading the list of missions he was on then the description of how he
led:

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leonard_Cheshire#Cheshire_as_o...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leonard_Cheshire#Cheshire_as_officer)

------
RivieraKid
I used to be neutral or slightly positive about Musk but this year really
changed my view on him. He's a pathological liar, attention-seeker, vengeful
narcissist, obsessed about his public image who's unable to handle criticism.

~~~
kire2345
I guess we all have these things in side of us and given the wrong
circumstances people let them out. I am definitely compassionate towards Musk,
as I for myself have made the experience that stress can bring out very
negative sides within you, if you don't stay aware and relaxed to not get
carried away of such feelings. It cannot be an apology and hopefully Musk
recognizes that it is not his true self acting but stress and anxiety
projected on others.

~~~
lovich
I'd find that argument more compelling if Musk hadn't done this of his own
volition and for great personal benefit at the expense of others.

------
purplethinking
It strikes me that many very successful people are incredibly smart and driven
but seem to have the emotional maturity, or personal introspection, of a 10
year old. Maybe it's just a necessary combination for this kind of success,
but it's also a bit paradoxical. Case in point: buying 5 mansions in Bel Air
when you spend all your time at work, literally sleeping under your desk.
Another is insisting on burning the candle at both ends by sleeping 4 hours a
night, when it has been proven beyond doubt that it's extremely counter-
productive to do so, both in terms of mental ability and overall health.

~~~
mhermher
He doesn't actually spend all his time at the factory. He's mostly in LA.
There are people on Twitter who track the flights of his private jet. He's
mostly in LA, he'll go to the bay area maybe for a day a week. More rarely to
Reno. If he's spending all his time working, it's at SpaceX of anything. But
more likely he spends his time at home searching his own name on Twitter.

The insane work hours stories are just part of the mythology.

~~~
eduah
I find it interesting you can read this negative article about him and choose
to believe the bad things, but dismiss the parts you think some might consider
a positive

~~~
karlmcguire
Probably shorting TSLA...

------
wilonth
Why do you guys say this is a negative article about Musk? Did you read the
whole of it? It's quite a fair story about the downs and ups of Tesla in the
past couple of years, and some of Musk's weird behaviors.

In the end, as the article mentioned, Tesla got through the 'production hell',
October's financial reports were positive and Musk's emotions went back to
(more) normal levels.

------
meowface
Even after reading this, I do think Musk genuinely, truly wants to change
humanity for the better and believes that that's what he's doing. And I think
he actually is to a large extent. But stuff like the examples in this article
and his social media behavior show he has no problem regularly being an
abusive, cruel, immature, rageful, narcissistic, despotic asshole to
individual people to get there - even to the people who've sacrificed and
contributed so much to help him get there.

I don't think he should be written off entirely, but he has a lot of learning
and growing to do.

------
dgut
People like Musk are necessary. You can't create great things without a mind
outside of the norm, and a mind outside of the norm is often unstable. Most
people wouldn't manage (psychologically) to be in Musk's position, much less
get to the point where he is now.

It isn't fair (what happened to this engineer), but hardly anything in life is
fair. What's important is to realize this and be able to move on. As an
engineer in the US, he is already one of the luckiest people on Earth.

~~~
gilrain
There are several billion people on this planet. If we push out the asshole
savants, then there will be room for the respectful savants who have been
there all along.

There are too many well-educated, compassionate, clever people out there for
“nobody else can do it but this specific abusive asshole” to stand up as an
argument.

~~~
Nasrudith
What is stopping the non-asshole savants from succeeding now? Would a lack of
competition improve things further? And of course who decides who is an
asshole and making sure they aren't the biggest one of all.

Also one is dealing with far ends of the bell curve by definition - there may
not be a replacement with every desired trait. Overfiltering on the irrelevant
is the action of literal historical losers like trying "German Physics" or
Lysenkoism instead of Bourgeoisie genetics.

Not to mention there are plenty of non-savant assholes in charge - if we want
to get rid off assholes wouldn't it make sense to oust the savants last as
they have actual utility above the norm?

~~~
HeyLaughingBoy
Why do you think the non-asshole savants aren't succeeding?

~~~
Nasrudith
I think they are but they are also rarer although certainly not impossible.

Part of it might be the "unreasonable man" effect based upon the Shaw quote
paraphrased as "A reasonable man adapts to the world while the unreasonable
man persists in trying to adapt the world to himself - therefore all hope of
progress rests upon the unreasonable man.

Essentially making advances ahead of everyone else requires disregarding what
everybody else thinks and not being deterred. So not caring what the naysayers
think kind of becomes a prerequisite. One can dissent and not be an asshole
but patience is limited.

That can be a hazard for assholishness which combined with some level of
obsessiveness means many probably fall into the category of being considered
assholes rightfully or not.

The perception itself of being an asshole is itself biased towards the status
quo - just look at Eartha Kitt's blackballing over answering the question of
the why juvenile delinquency and disaffection was on the rise by pointing out
the dissatisfaction over the Vietnam war and being called to give their lives
for it.

------
LaGrange
> “Did you fucking do this?”

That sounds like Kim in a factory posing as important. You have to wonder if
he even knew what "this" was.

------
rezeroed
Watching inside spacex there seemed to me to be a very tense and cautious
relationship between Musk and people who had to interact with him. Apart from
any nerves about launching. This article clarifies what I saw.

------
martythemaniak
For the last year or so, the mass of Tesla negativity around here at least
used to pretend to be around their product or market or finances. Now that
they're doing really well, all thats left is a torrent of increasingly comical
over-the-top denunciations of Musk.

------
thisacctforreal
Perhaps unsurprisingly, there are a lot of parallels to Jobs' Macintosh
factory. He was similarly overeager with automation, and even coerced the
executives to have the machines painted.

Excerpts from Walter Isaacson's biography:
[https://imgur.com/a/WlJ7wsD](https://imgur.com/a/WlJ7wsD)

Some videos: [http://strategosinc.com/articles/strategy/apple-foxconn-
stra...](http://strategosinc.com/articles/strategy/apple-foxconn-
strategy-1.htm)

~~~
bitwize
Jobs kind of had a point. Americans appear to have a tolerance for filth and
grime in the workplace that people from other developed countries do not. I'm
to understand that German auto mechanics, for instance, keep their workplaces
spotlessly clean in contrast to the "grease monkeys" that prevail in the USA.
And Jobs had always wanted to bring the same style and refinement from the
best European product design studios to his own products...

------
madengr
Musk reminds me of the North Korean man-child, touring the factories to dole
out his expertise. The only difference is Musk can’t put you in a
concentration camp.

------
ensiferum
And to think that some people think of him like he is/was some sort of demi-
god, saviour, genious, mankind's last hope. In fact guys like Musk or Steve
Jobs are just arrogant assholes with big egos, happy to take credit for the
hard work of all the fruits of their engineers doing bulk of the work.

------
pcunite
None of us should aspire to emulate this _way to greatness_. You'll lose
everything and for your reward, people will say, _he was successful_. If you
can ever find someone who does not know you, maybe you could pretend to be
different and they might like you, but you won't like yourself.

------
ConfusedDog
Why would anyone work there if this is the case? I agree that Tesla cars are
very futuristic, but glory all goes to the company and Elon. Do employee get
like a huge bonus or something if they survived long enough? There's got be a
reason this article is not mentioning.

~~~
LaGrange
The entire Mars, gonna save the world shtick? It's a recruitment ploy. Most of
his claims don't hold up to closer scrutiny, but it's aimed at young tech
professionals who _really want_ for their job to make sense, so much, that
they're willing to overlook both the evidence it might not _and_ the bad
quality of a job offer, just to hook themselves to someone who has a "bright
vision."

Truth is, much of tech nowadays doesn't even pretend to care about any benefit
to society. And spotting a scam, when a part of the scam is literally offering
you a sense of self-worth? That requires some rather painful introspection.

~~~
Robotbeat
Doesn’t hold up? What other company is there is making a bigger impact pushing
us to electrify?

And the “Mars is a conspiracy” is just not true. Musk can be sincere in his
motivations while still not being pleasant to work with.

~~~
LaGrange
> Doesn’t hold up? What other company is there is making a bigger impact
> pushing us to electrify?

Zurich public transport, every single train company. Claiming electric
personal cars are a solution to anything is a joke.

> And the “Mars is a conspiracy” is just not true. Musk can be sincere in his
> motivations while still not being pleasant to work with.

I'm sure he's sincere about colonising Mars. It's just that it's a terrible
idea and making it appear as a benefit to society requires some significant
mental exercises. But ever since at least Lenin it's pretty much common
knowledge that just increases commitment amongst the converted.

~~~
nickik
If I were the dictator and could force everybody to do as I say tge world
would be so much better.

You live in an utter delusional fantasy world if you believe that public
transport and trains can replace cars.

And you can believe about mars whatever you want. Even if collonisation doesnt
happen, getting to mars alone is already a huge achievment. Just the tech the
have done so far has been a huge achievment.

~~~
LaGrange
> You live in an utter delusional fantasy world if you believe that public
> transport and trains can replace cars.

You live in an utter delusional fantasy world if you believe that's what I
wrote, but we both know that you're consciously strawmanning.

~~~
nickik
There will be millions of cars sold for many, many years to come. Far, far
more then we can now produce EV. Large parts of the world are not gone be
served by trains.

Cars right now are a huge part of total oil consumption replacing that is
hugely important. Trains are established technology and no train company in
the world is gone reduce total oil consumption at the rate that Tesla is
producing cars now DIRECTLY competing against an oil driven resource that is
gone be around for 20+ years.

So tell me what other company right now is doing more to reduce oil
consumption in transportation and even more important, is growing at the rate
Tesla is growing. And that is even without the impact of Tesla on the vehicle
market.

~~~
LaGrange
> So tell me what other company right now is doing more to reduce oil
> consumption in transportation and even more important, is growing at the
> rate Tesla is growing. And that is even without the impact of Tesla on the
> vehicle market.

Regardless of your non-sequiturs and strawmanning, the Zurich public transport
authority
[http://photo.tramscape.com/trolleybus/2013_mini_trolleybus.j...](http://photo.tramscape.com/trolleybus/2013_mini_trolleybus.jpg)

Edit: also, a true devotee like you should be aware that Musks main motivation
is his hate for traveling with other people, not "reducing the oil
consumption."

------
nuguy
I find it very strange that I’ve never seen a single article like this about
SpaceX. Doesn’t it stand to reason that if musk runs both companies, there
would also be a juicy scoop about SpaceX employees and their hardship? I
suppose it has nothing to do with the fact that Tesla is publicly traded and
SpaceX is not.

Elon musk was totally rational during the Thai submarine thing. He posted a
series of very logical and straightforward suggestions, was then asked by the
divers to implement the submarine, and was consequently called a fraud by some
random person who had associated himself with the rescue. It was quite rude.
Elon responses in kind and in my opinion he was very measured in his reply
considering he had just received a very unfair and mean molestation of his
character. But all this wired article says is that he called someone a pedo,
as if he had lost his mind. A lack of essential context is conspicuously
absent.

------
danzig13
Seems pretty damning, but I do wonder without his efforts would as much
progress have been made in batteries/electric cars?

It is just sad that Tesla could be a much healthier and successful company if
all those first string people where still there.

------
Wiretrip
I wish more people realised the truth behind the PR construction that is Elon
Musk and stop calling him an 'inventor' and 'engineer'. He is neither. He got
lucky a few times and has somehow managed to persuade people that he
'invented' Paypal (he didn't - and was in fact sacked when X.com was bought),
that he 'invented' the electric car (nope, the Victorians did that), that he
'invented' the Hyperloop (again, the Victorians) and that he 'invented'
reusable rockets (again, not him). He is a massive fraud and a paper tiger.

~~~
nickik
Most of the things you claim that he says he never did say. The idea that he
claims that he invented the electric car or reusable rockets is utter nonsense
and you will not find one quote that makes that statment.

Claiming that he is not an engineer is just more nonsense. He is the chief
engineer of the falcon rocket and many people inside and outside of SpaceX
have said to be highly impressed with what he does.

If you don't like Elon that is fine, but this post is just nonsense.

~~~
Wiretrip
Sorry I should have said 'they' rather than 'he' in referring to those
prosletysing his mythos. Also, he is not a qualified engineer, whatever he
calls himself. I imagine many of those depending on his good favour are
'impressed with what he has done at SpaceX', including his employees - but
designing rockets is not one of those things. I have no personal beef with
him, I just object to him being elevated beyond his true abilities.

------
jswizzy
I remember reading his biography and the author admits they intended it to be
a hit piece in the first chapter.

------
sys_64738
Modern day Howard Hughes?

------
CoderRefresh
I've not read a positive article about Elon Musk for a while now.

Why would anyone want to work in places like this?

~~~
onlydeadheroes
> I find it interesting how many smear pieces against Musk have suddenly
> surfaced ever since he announced he wanted to take Telsa private again.

~~~
josefx
Wait, again? Did I miss another million dollar weed joke?

------
m_b
Wow, capitalism (& employement obviously) is shit. What a surprise! Thank you
HN to sharing this and reminding us that our great leaders are geniuses but
bad to us in the same time and we should get on with it.

------
who-knows95
i'm honestly stunned, i know he's so passionate and a genius, but this is
truly mind boggling.

~~~
skgoa
I'm honestly amazed to still see people call him a genius in 2018.

~~~
leesec
I'm honestly amazed people don't think he's a genius after all he has
accomplished.

~~~
rightbyte
What's genius about him? He's a great manager, in the sense that he get people
to get shit done.

Would you call Wayne Gretzky a genius?

------
matz1
His passion, geniuses, quirkiness, and yes that include his "abusive" behavior
is exactly the reason why I continue buying tesla stock. I hold no other
individual company stock except tsla, everything else is index fund.

