
How US students get a university degree for free in Germany - SimplyUseless
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-32821678
======
jguegant
French here, the tuitions are close to 0 in Finland and France too (granted
that you learn French). Our parents pay up to 50% (I don't have the exact
percentage) of various taxes based on their salaries and daily life goods, and
we as children will do the same. It makes sense that our government rewards us
in some way: health care for free, school for free, retirement... In Europe,
the government avoids you to shoot yourself by managing part of your money for
the well being of the society. In return, we may look less rich by looking at
our bank balance. If you take a 3500 $ Swedish salary with all the taxes
applied, your life level might be equivalent as a 7000 $ salary in US.

Beware not to overuse this trick. In the past many other European countries
were accessible for virtually free. Until an army of Chineses came, studied
for free for 5 years and went back to their hometown without any contribution
to the society (taxes, intellectual contributions...). That's why Sweden
granted recently the free access to only Europe citizens that anyway pay
common taxes in their own country.

~~~
draz
"If you take a 3500 $ Swedish salary with all the taxes applied, your life
level might be equivalent as a 7000 $ salary in US." Completely agree.

I live and work in Manhattan. I love the city (!) But between Federal taxes,
state taxes, and city taxes, the reality is that I pay over 40% taxes. Yet, I
receive none of the benefits European countries offer their citizens: state
sponsored healthcare, subsidized (and good) education, etc. It's a real shame
because I think it reflects very poorly on us, as a "first world" society.

For those not from the area, a few figures to give you a sense of things: \-
the truth is that public schools have a bad reputation. There are a few
exceptional public schools (Stuyvesant, Hunter, Bronx Science), but they're
highly selective and certainly can't fit every kid in the city. I know many
who send their kids to private schools (>$30K or $40K per year in tuition
fees) \- health insurance is tied to one's employer, and while some is
subsidized by employer), it is paid out of employee's paycheck to a private
insurance company.

So, yeah, taxes may be high in France, Germany, and many other countries, but
there's some return.

Again, I love NYC and all it has to offer. Objectively, one has to be honest
about the pros and cons living here.

Disclaimer: I am married to a European. Perhaps I've been drinking the kool-
aid :-)

~~~
spdionis
In countries like Sweden I think the tax cut is around 60%.

Also, Europeans don't have near as much military power, there's where your
money goes :).

~~~
draz
Countries like Sweden (or maybe it's the only one) also adjusts the fine for
speeding according to one's income. If you make a lot, $250 fine isn't going
to deter you from speeding. But $200K might (there's probably an upper limit?)

Looks like they're using their brains there...

Ok, I'm convinced -- anyone hiring in Europe? ;-)

------
SEJeff
Perhaps we should send more kids to Europe for schooling to see how a civil
society lives, then bring them back after graduating to fix the problems with
America. win/win :)

~~~
danmaz74
Except we Europeans would pay for your kids education, and get nothing in
return. Win/lose.

~~~
SEJeff
The kids of today grow up to become the leaders of tomorrow. If they grow up
with a European worldview and come back to the US, that certainly couldn't be
a bad thing.

~~~
danmaz74
I didn't think about this effect and probably it would have at least some
positives. But I think most US leaders will come from Ivy League universities
anyway.

------
noipv4
There should also be an article on how Asian (Indians, Chinese, Filipino, etc)
students get graduate degree for free in the USA. Thanks US for my free
Masters and PHD ;)

~~~
backtobecks
ermm... elaborate a bit more on this? please?

~~~
montecarl
In science and engineering, PhD students are typically paid a salary and have
their tuition waived. This is mostly funded by the federal government though
the NSF, DOE, DOD, etc.

~~~
kaybe
It's the same in Germany. Getting a PhD is basically a job.

~~~
_of
In the US, getting a PhD is not a job. Everything below the faculty level is
considered trainee.

------
liquidcool
How is the quality of engineering education in Germany these days? I quote
Paul Graham:

"There don't seem to be many universities elsewhere that compare with the best
in America, at least in technology.

In some countries this is the result of a deliberate policy. The German and
Dutch governments, perhaps from fear of elitism, try to ensure that all
universities are roughly equal in quality. The downside is that none are
especially good." [1]

He goes on. Is this still accurate?

[1] [http://paulgraham.com/america.html](http://paulgraham.com/america.html)

~~~
wobbleblob
He has a number of blanket statements ready about Europe, but Europe is a very
diverse place, much more so than the US. Norway, Turkey, Russia, Luxembourg,
the UK differ much more from each other than Alaska, Louisiana, Texas, New
York, California.

In the end I don't think it has much to do with 'America' vs 'Not America',
but with Silicon Valley having been the place where it started. You can't
create a second silicon valley in Florida any more than you can in Germany.
The startups go to Silicon Valley because that's where the investors are. The
investors go to Silicon Valley because that's where the startups go. You can't
create a second Hollywood, a second Mecca, a second Rome.

I don't think these things develop according to a plan. Perhaps a generation
from now, the Chinese equivalent of Hacker News will mock American attempts to
create a second Shanghai or Moscow.

~~~
grumpydog
Since when Turkey and Russia became "Europe"? Don't get me wrong - probably
both are super-interesting places in their own right, but including them into
"Europe" is like including Mexico and Brasil into "America". Again, nothing
wrong with those as well, they are just vastly different places, far outside
of "education and taxes in US vs. that in EU" discourse.

~~~
wobbleblob
I don't mean to be pedantic, but it's basic geography and history.

Russia has been part of Europe ever since it was founded in the middle ages.
It only built an Asian empire from the 17th century onward. Russia is European
in just the same way as the UK and France were before they lost their empires.

Turkey became part of Europe when the Ottomans started expanding into Europe,
in the 14th century. Even today, the largest city in Europe is Istanbul,
Turkey. Fun fact: Istanbul has more inhabitants than most EU member states.

I was responding to that 'paulgraham' article, and he consistently talks about
'Europe' (not the EU) like it's this one homogeneous blob.

------
facepalm
"To cover rent, mandatory health insurance and other expenses, Hunter's mother
sends him between $6,000-7,000 each year."

That's actually a little bit low for Munich. I think two or three times that
would be more realistic to cover living expenses.

~~~
mesh1123
As an anecdote, i live on €6000 in Munich. It's definitely the minimum, but
possible when living in university accommodation & and cooking your own food.

~~~
facepalm
Impressive :-)

Actually I started out with 500€/month in Munich, but that was 22 years ago.
And I ended up doing side jobs. Prices must have gotten up since then.

------
Mithaldu
To spare people the click after that dumb clickbait title:

Germany only requires tuition fees of ~30-100€ per semester* from any student,
regardless country of origin.

* For administrative stuff and often includes public transit tickets.

Also, previously (today even):
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9656905](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9656905)

~~~
Dewie3
Oh man. 30-100€ per semester and not literally 0€ per semester? I feel so
misled and cheated by that clickbait title. Do people have _no_ shame?

~~~
billforsternz
I don't think Mithaldu was simply being pedantic about the word "free".

~~~
Mithaldu
Thank you for being the only one to understand that the word free was not what
i was complaining about. The replies to my post have been both amusing and
horrifying, and you are a shining light in a sea of shortsightedness. :)

~~~
coldtea
Notice how both his, your initial and your second comment don't say anything
else besides that the title is linkbait and that it says free where in fact
you pay a very very small amount?

You might have been complaining about something else besides free, but
information about what would that be is totally absent from your comments.

~~~
billforsternz
Possibly by "his" you mean me, so I perhaps owe an explanation. I thought the
point Mithaldu was making was sufficiently obvious. Instead of a title
signaling the contents of the article in a straightforward manner, a more
sensational sounding title was chosen. A step along the path to "Click here to
learn the one amazing simple free education trick expensive US universities
don't want you to know about". But the responses to Mithaldu seemed to think
he was quibbling about whether a trivial amount of money was the same as free
or not. I didn't think he was, something he has subsequently confirmed. Hope
that helps.

~~~
coldtea
> _Instead of a title signaling the contents of the article in a
> straightforward manner, a more sensational sounding title was chosen._

That's because the title should also get you to want to READ the article, and
do it in 10 words or less.

But that doesn't mean it was click-bait and certainly not to the degree of
titles like "amazing simple education trick" etc. If it was a "step along that
path" it was a very very small step.

~~~
billforsternz
I have upvoted you, you make a good point. I commented originally because it
was clear to me what Mithaldu was saying but others were misunderstanding his
point. It was not really so much about whether his point is correct or not.

------
vfclists
It only shows the American political establishment prefers a capitalist system
that impoverishes white people rather than have a fair social system that has
the side effect of benefiting blacks and latinos as well. Ditto Brazil.

~~~
dylanjermiah
You are mistaken, the American system is certainly not true free market
capitalism. It is crony capitalism.

------
the_watcher
I work with someone who got a graduate degree in Germany. She simply can't
believe anyone goes to college in the US without massive scholarships. From
the student's perspective, I've come to agree.

~~~
adventured
Median household student loan debt - for those households carrying any student
loan debt - is ~$13,000. That is not crushing. And keep in mind, that's for
the whole household unit, the median student loan tally is even lower for
individuals.

The median monthly household payment is $160, and the median ratio of income
to payment is 4%.

The US has among the highest median incomes and median disposable incomes of
any countries.

It's obnoxious that the cost of college has soared so much in the last 15
years, there's no question about that. However, it is still _very_ possible to
get a high quality and fair priced education in the US.

Those popular media stories about people carrying $80,000 in student loans?
That's in fact talking about a small fraction of all student loan situations.

------
joe_the_user
I want to go to a _free_! country, like Cuba, I mean Germany, I mean the Unite
States, I mean Russia, I mean Ecuador ... oh help me out guys.

------
tP5n
Sadly, I find the article to be fairly misleading. First of all, the living
costs are far higher than they make you believe and then there is the "free
degree" vs. "semester fee + x" debate that is actually very different from
university to university in germany - and I believe they are oddly mistaken
when it comes to the University of Munich.

Where I studied, the rent was 350-450€/month and the semester fee around
250-300€/term. True, the health insurance for students is incredible (~70€),
but I'm not going to comment on what the BBC apparently thinks is reasonably
in terms of "Groceries" and "Misc.", that's just seems weird to me. Bottom
line, as a student you are not going to get by with 7k/year in Munich.

Oh, and hey, you need to get accredited at a university first, of course ;)

------
edward
The drinking age in the US is 21. This doesn't stop college students from
drinking, it just means they can end up in trouble with law enforcement or the
university authorities.

US students who study in Europe are free to drink without breaking the law.

Also, some would argue that Germany beer is better.

~~~
pluma
Also, binge drinking frat parties aren't a thing in Germany.

There are fraternities ("Burschenschaften"), but they're very different and
far less popular. They tend to keep to themselves more and are less visible to
non-member students.

------
keyboard_jedi
Why in the world did I go to college in the US?? I hate that the US education
system is so capitalistic and not out to provide for the citizens of this
country! Wish I would've included colleges outside the US in my college making
decision..

~~~
tracker1
I think that a lot of the legal changes to student loan funding from the 90's
are really showing their ugly heads today. They are exempt from a lot of
protections other forms of debt offer. Not to mention the effect of widely
available loans (and insurance for that matter) have on an industry's pricing
structures. It allows for whole new paths of corruption, overcharging and
overspending.

That's not to say every school operates like the University of Phoenix and the
like... a lot of community colleges offer good education, while not being
overtly expensive. Some universities and state colleges are a bit of a mix,
and a lot of funding comes from various sources which bleed into expectations,
costs and funding. That doesn't even go into scholarship programs and grants.

While I agree with the tenant that everyone should have access to higher
education, I'm pretty sure that our approach should have been better.

------
StillBored
Truly shocking they haven't discovered "out of country tuition". That is the
big scam here in the US, most of the state schools have out of state fee's
that are 2x-5x as high as the instate ones. The excuse of course is saving
money and how the students parents don't pay taxes (ignoring they pay taxes
elsewhere).

The best part of course, is the lame/insane rules they come up with to
determine if your instate or out of state. Mostly because in the US just
having a utility bill from a rental or what not is enough to transfer a
drivers license/residency. Amusingly enough, most of these states actually
require in state vehicle registrations for said students in order to get the
tax money...

~~~
theVirginian
Part of the reason for raising tuition is also to discourage out of state
students from applying so that they can provide a relatively high quality of
education to state's residences that is accessible to many of the state's
residents. Georgia does this, as well as some other schools.

~~~
joe_the_user
Most US states _used_ to do that. Now, at the least, the University Of
California _prefers_ out-of-state and out-of-country just for the extra
tuition and charges tuition that's not really accessible for in-state
students.

------
kudu
Is it possible to do this for Canadian students? I don't see Canada listed on
the admission assessment page.

~~~
frugalmail
Canada isn't state #51?

------
marianov
See Argentina. Free college, university, med school, engineering, PHDs,
doctorates, etc. Other problems though.

~~~
frugalmail
The best part, they have like 100 holidays a year. That's like 1/3rd the work
everywhere else :P

------
pluma
Pedantic tangent: saying Germany has "abandoned" tuition fees is not entirely
correct.

Until a few years ago there were no tuition fees in public universities in
Germany. In fact there still aren't any non-public universities, though there
are private academies.

University education is also not as common in Germany as it is in the US:
although more jobs require formal education and certification in Germany (e.g.
if you professionally paint cars in Germany, you need a specific formal
qualification to do so), there are long-standing trade-specific education
systems that provide these, rather than universities. These are typically
three to five year trainings consisting of an internship as well as formal
schooling. Historically university has been more academic in nature, being
considered to be more about higher education than a job qualification for the
industry. In other words, someone with a university degree effectively has no
job experience but may understand the higher-level concepts of the business
domain (i.e. the "why") whereas someone with a non-university trade education
has less high-level knowledge but a lot of hands-on experience (i.e. the
"how").

Public universities only charge a comparatively low fee (typically around EUR
200-400), which mostly covers services provided by the university's student
union who also often negotiate deals like public transit tickets (which are
then paid from the student union's cut). The student unions are thus able to
adjust the fee to provide additional services but generally puts decisions
which would result in higher fees up to a direct vote by all enrolled
students. The decision-making council is also directly elected by the students
(which has resulted in a political microcosm that is quite similar to the
government-level political parties).

A few years ago, Germany officially adopted the Bachelor/Master system because
various European nations decided to standardize higher education degrees
across Europe. The general argument for doing so was that it made degrees from
different countries more comparable and thus reduced the HR headaches for
internationally hiring companies.

Shortly after the BA/MA switch, Germany changed a law that previously
prohibited tuition fees in public universities so it only specified a cap of
EUR 500 per semester (on top of the existing baseline fee). This was
officially part of an initiative to raise the quality of education, along with
funding for universities that were trying to create "elite" faculties (i.e.
specialising). Officially this would not result in reducing the government
spending on universities but it was an open secret that the cap would be
raised over the next years as tuition fees gain more acceptance and thus allow
the government to slowly pull out their funding to make universities more
independent. Officially it was also predicted that most universities wouldn't
set their tuition fees to the legal maximum.

Predictably, the vast majority of universities introduced tuition fees at
exactly the legal maximum (EUR 500 on top of the existing fees). While EUR
700-800 is still "low" by American standards, it effectively meant an up to 3x
increase many students couldn't easily afford. To add insult to injury, the
universities' invoices would often contain ads by state banks offering student
loans at "reasonable" terms (i.e. lower-than-average interest and they'd pay
the tuition fee for you so you continue to only have to pay the baseline fee
yourself, giving you the illusion that nothing has changed until you graduate
or drop out and suddenly have accrued quite a bit of debt).

It should also be noted that culturally, Germany is a nation of savers, not
loaners. While most students were previously able to graduate with no debt at
all (except for a public grant known as BAFöG which covers up to 100% of the
baseline fee with only the difference accumulating as debt) the tuition fees
threatened to change that entirely.

Also predictably, the students reacted quite vocally. There were lots of
protests all over Germany and the way most universities handled was a bit
upsetting because it violated the silent historical agreement (established by
precedent after the famous 1968 student protests) that university disputes are
handled non-violently by the university and its students, not by riot police.

After spending a few months explaining to students that tuition was here to
stay and that EUR 500 per semester is entirely negligible (to quote the head
of the University of Cologne: "just drink one less beer a day" \-- I should
probably add that binge drinking frat parties are less of a thing in Germany),
some universities finally dropped the tuition fees, resulting in a slow
cascade as the growth of applicant numbers shrank for those universities that
still maintained non-zero tuition fees.

Nowadays, I don't think any university still charges tuition fees. I'm not
sure whether the government intervened at some point and repealed the act that
allowed them in the first place or whether it was entirely "voluntary" but
they're effectively gone now.

It's important to recognize that the outrage was less about the specific sum
-- while a 2x-3x increase in cost can be world-changing for low-income
students, it's still manageable, especially if you can stomach taking a loan
(or are poor enough you don't have to pay the fees at all). The more important
thing was that it created a slippery slope. The only reason the tuition fee
was that low was that it was the legal maximum. Adjusting that maximum would
have been politically much easier than passing the act that allowed the fees
in the first place, especially if the increase is gradual.

A change from zero to a low value is much more intrusive than a change from a
non-zero value to a higher value. Introducing tuition fees set a precedent
that created a potential path to US-level costs while also turning student
debt from an exception to the norm. The UK is a good parallel (tuition fees
were introduced in 1998 with a legal maximum that has been increased several
times since).

Yes, dear Americans, the US is considered the negative example by German
students -- although German politics and industry of course fawn over the
quality of elite universities in the US (while ignoring that the quality of
German universities compares favourably with non-elite universities in the
US).

~~~
germanier
You offer great additional information (the basics of this are all included in
the article). Just another additional remark: None of the administration fee
goes to the university itself, it is divided between the students and the
Studentenwerk (which is separate from the university and organizes things like
dining halls).

~~~
pluma
Also, several universities were risking fines because they collected the
tuition fees but never used them for anything.

Part of the problem was that tuition fees were legally required to be used
only in certain ways ("Verbesserung der Qualität der Lehre", literally
"improving the quality of education") but most of the new projects the
universities actually started were changes to the administration or
constructing new buildings (including lecture halls) rather than hiring more
teachers or actually improving the education.

