
Edward Snowden has not entered Russia - Sergei Lavrov - rb2e
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-23045790
======
ramblerman
\--- US Secretary of State John Kerry said it would be "deeply troubling" if
it became clear that China had "wilfully" allowed him to fly out of Hong Kong.
---

As a generally pro US European I have to wonder if the US realizes the extent
of the PR disaster it is creating with each passing statement. I mean what
does this idle threat really accomplish?

It makes China look good, it makes the states look like the bully and it
carries absolutely zero weight. If anything it just makes China look stronger
internationally.

~~~
Sven7
Give me a break. You think anyone is going to care next week when the
attention of the media will shift, as it always does, to whatever else is most
eyeball baiting, elsewhere in the world.

The baseline strategy has been more or less the same. Hide Obama from the
press. Send out robotic talking heads to spew about anything remotely relevant
to the issue at hand. And wait for the press to get distracted by something
else.

I am racking my brain to come up with an incident that was under the media
spotlight that actually pushed the Govt. to act.

~~~
tokenizer
Well as a foreigner, this whole entire debacle has changed my entire outlook
on the US. I don't have faith in your institutions anymore at all.

I understand the public at large will not feel this way, and will simply pass
to the next distraction shortly, but this lack of faith I've built up, is
going to stay with me for a while.

So instead of a happy Canadian tuning in to your elections and being extremely
excited about the future like I was in 2008, I truly believe that your entire
system is completely hopeless. No true change can come out of it.

~~~
TheSpiceIsLife
As a non-US citizen - I live in Adelaide, South Australia, it is entertaining
watching the US Government's reaction, stamping it's feet and calling names
like a child, like they think anyone actually believes they matter any more. I
know that's a strong statement, and it's directly entirely at the US Gov. not
at it's people.

The Bush and Obama administrations have literally made the US the laughing
stock of the world, and although it really is rather entertaining,
reflectively, this is the world I have grown up in - I'm 32, and I guess it's
sad, upon consideration, that I've never known an "America" that was a nation
everyone looked up to.

I'm imagining the governments of China and Russia, and any other country along
the way, or the destination, just sitting around going "Huh! Hahahahahaha!
Pfffffff!" and "Oh look, there goes Snowden, should we capture him, naaaaah,
watching the US squirm and stamp it's feet like a child is way too
entertaining".

My opinion and observations of the US Gov. over the past couple decades, and
my reading of it's history, is pretty bleak, it's as though the only
difference between US, China, Russia, India, South Africa, etc etc, is that
all the other governments are overtly corrupt. Or, that was a difference.

Another interesting perspective on the Global Diplomatic Climate is that the
USA literally is a child, it has existed for only 237 years since the
Declaration of Independence. Russia, China, India, these peoples have
persisted for millennia.

I guess if you want to be the best in the world, you should at least do what
the best-in-the-world are doing, the USA doesn't rank Number 1 in any of the
areas that matter to people as human beings.

I think what we'll be witnessing over the next couple of decades is the US
being put in its rightful place: at the table, not at the head of it - I mean,
it already is that way, with China and Russia constantly vetoing US desires at
the UN Security Council, and then the US Military just doing it anyway, but I
believe increasingly the rest of the world will not tolerate what is perceived
to be the USs 'bullying'.

~~~
Sven7
While it is disappointing and frustrating to watch what the American
government has been upto these past few years, I would still say the US is,
and shall remain for years to come in a league above the country's you
mention.

There is a good indicators to measure this, and that is the lines at the visa
counters of American embassies the world over. Those numbers aren't shrinking.

~~~
tokenizer
You're right, but many foreigners think, including myself, that things will
change for the worst in the years to come.

Taking your point of immigration, what if the US's unemployment rate continues
to climb? I'm sure that many people who would immigrate would not know, as
they're going to the US on an advertising pitch (the American Dream), but I'm
sure plenty will turn tail and do some sensible research in regards to their
prospects in a new country. A 15% to 20% unemployment rate looks rather
uninviting. Some interesting statistics that aren't alarmist at the moment:
[http://www.tradingeconomics.com/united-
states/unemployment-r...](http://www.tradingeconomics.com/united-
states/unemployment-rate)

There's also the problem with the overton window to the right that we've seen
in the past 30 years. I could see a potentiality where an extremist extremely
limits immigration. Any specific extremist policy focused inward will also
reverberate throughout the world. There's a reason many choose to not go to
Greece or Mexico anymore, and that's because of their reputations.

There's no doubt your statement is correct, and that the US will have global
hegemony for years to come due to its military, but I'd like you to put on
your optimist hat and tell me why that's a good thing at all. Thanks

------
eatitraw
The title is ambigous. I speak russian, so I've checked one russian news
resource:
[http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=ru&tl=en&js=n&prev=...](http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=ru&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=ru&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.gazeta.ru%2Fpolitics%2Fnews%2F2013%2F06%2F25%2Fn_2995905.shtml)

Lavrov actualy said "Snowden hasn't crossed the russian border", not "has not
entered Russia".

The quote from the article in OP's link: > Correspondents say Mr Lavrov's
comments suggest that Mr Snowden remained airside after landing in Moscow, and
so has technically never entered Russian territory.

During last couple of days there were a number of news telling that Snowden
flew to Moscow but never crossed the russian border(he had no visa anyway).
The only new information in bbc's article is Lavrov's confirmation.

So: Snowden (probably) crossed HK border before flight to Moscow, but after
arrival in Moscow he (probably) hasn't crossed the border.

------
josteink
> He also called on Russia to "live by the standards of the law because that's
> in the interests of everybody".

What he means is that he calls on Russia to side-step its own law and enact US
laws in Russia when it benefits the US.

And that the US should be allowed to side-step the law whenever and wherever
it so damns pleases.

What a hypocrite.

------
tokenadult
The term "enter" (a country) is a term of art in immigration law and
international law, so, yes, it is technically possible that Snowden is on the
sovereign territory of Russia without ever having entered Russia. The issue of
what travel documents he was using to get on the last airline flight he took,
and whether or not those will be considered valid for entry to Russia by
Russian authorities, is one of the many interesting open questions in this
case.

Does anyone reading this thread have any serious doubt that China uses all
national technical means available to maintain surveillance of as many places
it can reach, especially in regard to separatist movements like the Tibetan
and Eastern Turkestan independence movements? Likewise for Russia; can there
be any reasonable doubt that Russia monitors much (all?) Internet traffic to
the country from elsewhere, or within the country in general?

~~~
threeseed
There are definitely some interesting questions here.

Snowden's passport has been revoked so in theory there is no legal basis for
him to leave the transit area. He can assumably claim asylum whilst there but
according to Russian Federation Law he doesn't seem to meet the conditions:

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_Federation_Law_on_Refug...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_Federation_Law_on_Refugees)

So I would imagine that Ecuadorian diplomatic officials would have to process
his asylum request in the transit area and then fly him from there ?

~~~
marquis
The news I was reading yesterday assumed this also, based on the Ecuador
diplomatic plates seen: "Two cars with diplomatic license plates of Ecuador –
the country named among Snowden’s possible destinations – were spotted at
Sheremetyevo airport."

[http://rt.com/news/snowden-fly-moscow-
aeroflot-125/](http://rt.com/news/snowden-fly-moscow-aeroflot-125/)

------
eru
> US officials have defended the practice of gathering telephone and internet
> data from private users around the world.

> They say Prism cannot be used to target intentionally any Americans or
> anyone in the US, [...].

What a relief to us unAmericans..

~~~
kybernetyk
Yeah, I'm feeling so good about this that right now I'm building a local
server with full disk encryption to host git repos and internal company chat.

Good bye shiny cloud services. I guess the ease of use/low administration
overhead without any high price tag attached was really too good to be true.

~~~
eru
Cloudservices like tarsnap might still be worthwhile for you.

~~~
kybernetyk
Yes, I thought especially about tarsnap for off-offsite backups.

------
smackay
First North Korea and Iran make a mockery of the USA in negotiations over
their nuclear capabilities. Now it's Hong Kong and Russia. Next in line is
Ecuador. The reservoir of USA authority is evaporating fast with no real way
to stop it. As far as the game of diplomacy is concerned the score so far is
USA 0 - 4 Rest of the World (all own goals).

The consequences of this could be rather serious. A diminished USA is going to
leave a vacuum which, regardless of the current behaviour of the USA
government, is not going to be a good thing as Russia and China rush in to
grab what they can.

Writing the history of this and the subsequent events in a hundred years or so
will be very interesting.

~~~
paganel
As an Eastern-European dependent on US "soft power" I really hoped that the
last "lost" decade would really change how things work at the State Department
and about how the US handles its foreign policy generally speaking.

IMHO, the US relies too much on how many carriers they can bring to a "hot
point" and how much aerial damage they can cause, sort of forgetting that the
Berlin Wall was not teared down using bombs, but because people wanted to
purchase Coca Cola and Levi's and to buy print-magazines with real rock-stars
on their covers.

There's also something to be said about America needing a Nixon-like strategic
thinker (his openness to Mao etc) and forgetting about the small battles that
don't accomplish anything (we've killed X mujaheddin in the Yemen desert,
we've "liberated" a God-forgotten Afghan province etc)

~~~
notdrunkatall
> the US relies too much on how many carriers they can bring to a "hot point"
> and how much aerial damage they can cause, sort of forgetting that the
> Berlin Wall was not teared down using bombs, but because people wanted to
> purchase Coca Cola and Levi's and to buy print-magazines with real rock-
> stars on their covers.

That's a powerful statement. I wish I could forward it to Obama and the rest
of the heads.

------
lignuist
This is pretty entertaining.

The US government meanwhile disgraced itself by accusing China and Russia of
unlawful behavior.

~~~
rb2e
It is pretty much becoming something out of a Tom Clancy novel. You could
easily imagine a situation room like you see in many a Hollywood movie
tracking him. Though Hollywood, this is not.

~~~
ealexhudson
You say it's not Hollywood - maybe Snowden will end up like the guy in "The
Terminal", unable to enter Russia but unable to leave the airport....

~~~
rb2e
My guess is, he was put into a waiting car owned by a foreign government and
whisked away somewhere or taken to another waiting plane and 'smuggled' out.

But this has been planned with pinpoint precision and I expect there is a lot
of 'back channel' negotiation/diplomacy being carried for safe channel to fly
him to Ecuador or wherever.

He will probably only turn up officially when he is out of arm's reach of the
USA.

~~~
Sven7
"Pinpoint precision" gives the governments of the world too much credit.
Reacting to developments on the fly is not exactly a strength. There was a
(Reuters?) article yesterday that said the Ambassador of Ecuador arrived at
the airport and asked the press where Snowden was...and I am expecting thats
the kind of stuff that is mostly going on.

------
toble
I guess one good thing about this charade is it keeps the media interested.
These sorts of stories normally disappear after a few days, with only the most
enthusiastic person able to dedicate their time to follow them.

Same thing with Assange, him being stuck in an embassy is a bit of a freak
show (can't think of a better phrase). He pops up randomly and the press can't
help but point their cameras and microphones at him. Assange is practically on
the media's doorstep.

~~~
mtgx
I hope the the NSA spying story stays in the media for many months, because I
fear that as soon as politicians stop fearing the outrage over this, they will
immediately grant immunities for this like they did with carriers earlier, and
will also probably pass new laws to make whatever people may suspect NSA is
doing now is illegal (not just unconstitutional) to make it _legal_. But if
they fear outrage, they might not do it yet.

------
znowi
It's funny, I look at all this and what comes to mind is the movie "Iron Sky"
with its cleverly depicted political landscape. If you watched it, you'll
understand :)

The US cheated their way into the Iraq war. Invaded Afghanistan. With Iran
likely the next target. Stirred up the Middle East with Egypt, Libya, Syria on
fire. Commit drone strikes worldwide. Kidnap and torture people on foreign
soil. Keep half the world under surveillance. And the language they converse
in is of demands and threats.

I think we have a major bully emerging here.

~~~
rooshdi
They've been a bully. That's just a sample of recent history.

------
CKKim
_[Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov] criticised what he termed US
attempts to blame Russia for his disappearance, saying they were "groundless
and unacceptable"._

and

 _Meanwhile, China has also described US accusations that it facilitated the
departure of fugitive Edward Snowden from Hong Kong as "groundless and
unacceptable"._

Does anyone else find it slightly odd that they used identical wording? Is
this a case of the Chinese saying "well the Russians nailed it, let's use the
exact same phrase", or what precisely?

~~~
agravier
Standard diplomatic language perhaps?

~~~
notimetorelax
Plus in both cases these could be translations from Chinese and Russian
languages.

------
rdl
Right, he's in the international transit area, so not officially "in Russia",
despite being within Russian territory. (There was that stupid movie The
Terminal with Tom Hanks which might be relevant here...)

------
junto
"So Komrade Snowden. We are the FSA. You can talk to us willingly, or talk to
this rubber hose... or you can go to the US Embassy for protection.
Muhahahahaha"

~~~
narag
If it turns out neither China, Cuba nor Russia stop, threathen or interrogate
Snowden, the comparison leaves USA in a very bad place.

------
uvdiv
Nevertheless:

 _06 /25 14:37 RUSSIAN LAW ENFORCEMENT AUTHORITIES MAY DETAIN SNOWDEN TO
ESTABLISH ALL CIRCUMSTANCES, INCLUDING PASSPORT DETAILS - SOURCE_

[http://www.interfax.com/news.asp](http://www.interfax.com/news.asp)

~~~
verroq
Are they allowed to though? He technically isn't in Russian terroritory.

~~~
notimetorelax
Tell me this is US border police and airport security allowed to detain anyone
making a hop in the US? I'm pretty sure airport security can detain any and
everyone they desire.

~~~
CaptainZapp
US airports don't have such a thing as a transit zone. Even if you're flying
to a third country via an US airport, you need to go through immigration,
collect your luggage, go through customs, re-check your luggage and then
endure the whole security circus once again.

This is not the case in most any other airport on the globe, where you usually
remain in the transit zone if you're travelling to a third country.

That said: I agree with you that the Russian statement is likely a cop out. If
they want to arrest you they wouldn't give a shit if you're in the transit
zone or not. That probably goes for every other country too.

~~~
notimetorelax
I didn't know that, thank you for the explanation.

And yes just as you said, IMHO transit zone is not a safety zone from the
hosting government, it is more just a convenience thing for the travellers.

------
Svip
So when is the movie coming out?

~~~
cclogg
I hear Denzel is in talks to star as Snowden.

~~~
zokier
Not Matt Damon?

~~~
michas
Political correctness requires that main good character should be Afroamerican
and main evil character should be white. If you do the opposite you (director)
are considered racist

------
ohwp
If the information he has is very valuable it's not only the US he should be
running from.

------
alexeiz
Russian authorities are either mocking the Obama administration or learning
from it:

> ... Mr Lavrov said. "He chose his itinerary on his own. We learnt about
> it... from the media.

------
sidcool
>Russia says it has had no involvement in the travel plans of fugitive US
intelligence leaker Edward Snowden.

Is Russia relenting to the US pressure?

~~~
michas
Russia is probably the country that recruited Snowden as it's agent, and they
commanded him to reveal NSA secrets. Now Snowden is probably safe somewhere
deep in Russia, and Russian authorities just lie about "no involvement in the
travel plans"

~~~
tty
Do you know something we don't?

------
loceng
So far so good that if whistleblowers can find protection from the U.S.
government, that more will come forward.

------
sigzero
It's only a matter of time before they get him.

------
throwaway10001
Two things: 1\. Putin is sick and tired of US raining (or trying to) on his
parade. This would tell US to go F itself, increase Putin's cred in Russia and
in many other countries.

2\. Snowden has a trove of intel that Russia would love to have.

~~~
michas
3\. Snowden probably already receives paychecks from Russia

~~~
jsmcgd
If he was receiving pay-checks from Russia for spying, it would probably come
with the stipulation that you don't blab to the world's media that you're a
spy. At the very least it's implied.

