
Vienna again named world's most liveable city - bookwormAT
http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/02/19/us-quality-survey-idUSBREA1I1L920140219
======
bane
The more I travel, the more convinced I am that the American experiment with
car oriented cities was a disaster that will take untold billions of dollars
to rectify. It's affected everything from public safety (e.g. police can no
longer walk a patrol), to loss of community (people don't really shop in the
same place they live), lost productivity (stuck in traffic), and on and on and
on.

I'm very encouraged by recent, walkable focused, mixed-use development around
mass transit stops in the DC area. If they're successful, they could quickly
pay back the tax dollars spent getting the transit built, and lead to a model
for development in the U.S. In other words, they're building more classic
European style city centers, but as all new construction, and even better,
informed by the mistakes and success of the last few decades.

I'm not sure it would ever get rid of the suburb (there's too many reasons to
not want to raise your children in the city), but there's innovation there
too. Many newer suburbs are being built with walkability in mind, usually with
a small commercial core with groceries, a coffee shop, laundry and a few
restaurants, many have mass transit shuttle stops and commuter lots nearby and
with telecommuting becoming more common, there's less of a need to make the
daily drive. I live in a suburb like this and have at least a dozen
restaurants (from fast food to high end), two coffee shops, laundry, a gym, a
Tae Kwon Do school, a bike shop, 2 ice cream parlors, a grocery, a movie
theater a couple salons, a music shop, a medical practice, dentist,
chiropractor, orthodontist, optometrist, liquor store, a bank and more within
a short, comfortable 5-10 minute walk from my house. I'm also surrounded by
green space and parks, schools and swimming pools are walkable and we're
planning on building out space for a public library and other amenities soon.
I telecommute most days and if I have to go to work I take the bus into the
city. Other than my weekly client site visits I pretty much don't drive my
car. In my region, this development model accounts for easily 40-50% of the
new developments.

European cities aren't without problems (awkward living accommodations in old
buildings, lack of handicapped or elderly accessibility, etc.), but remind us
that before the auto lobby took over and screwed up urban design, cities could
be built to high density, very livable, very human scale and that doing so
makes wonderful places to live and work.

~~~
alexeisadeski3
You don't think that Vienna is drivable?

It doesn't strike me an any more or less drivable than anywhere else in
Europe. It's certainly not Amsterdam.

The entire SWPL fascination with non-driving cities, or for that matter
opposed to sprawl, is just weird. So some people like to drive: That doesn't
oppress you.

I personally love suburban cities. Everything is so easy: You can hop in your
car and be anywhere you want in 5-25 mins. Meander about, get lost, have fun:
Driving itself is relaxing and enjoyable (I never go during traffic times).

I now live in a walkable city and just do not enjoy the 5-25min walks to get
where I want. I'd rather drive. Public transport, even in cities with great
infrastructure, is soul crushingly slow and inefficient. I've lived in places
with some of the best subway systems on earth, so they say, and I choose:
Never again.

Call me lazy, that's exactly what it is, but some people do prefer driving.

~~~
samtp
> Public transport, even in cities with great infrastructure, is soul
> crushingly slow and inefficient.

Wow. Then how would you describe:

1\. A daily 45 minute commune through barely moving traffic

2\. Driving around a walmart/tj maxx/home goods/target... parking lot for 5
minutes just to find a space

3\. Almost never having to interact with (or even look at) anyone in your
community since when you are not inside your house, in a cube at work, sitting
in a chain restaurant booth, or shuffling between a maze of aisles trying to
find laundry detergent; your sat in a steel box, isolated from everyone else.

No only would I call you lazy, it also seems that you're quite antisocial.

~~~
alexeisadeski3
Behold:

1\. Sprawl cities have shorter commutes [1 - compare sprawl king LA to NYC].

Even within dense places like Manhattan & EU cities, commutes take a long
time. Whilst studying abroad in EU Subway Wonderland, my ~3mi subway+walk
commute took 20-40mins. In Sprawl City USA, my 15mi commute took 15-20mins,
with easy parking both sides.

2\. This is common in dense urban cities: Parking in urban cities is a
nightmare. Parking in suburban sprawl cities is a breeze.

3\. Never seen the movie Pi?

[1] [http://www.theatlanticcities.com/commute/2013/03/where-it-
ta...](http://www.theatlanticcities.com/commute/2013/03/where-it-takes-
longest-get-work/4870/)

~~~
chao-
_> 2\. This is common in dense urban cities: Parking in urban cities is a
nightmare. Parking in suburban sprawl cities is a breeze._

It seems like you missed the point entirely of samtp's comment on this one. He
wasn't comparing "taking a long time parking" to "taking a short time
parking", but was comparing "taking _any_ time parking" versus "not having to
park _at all_ ".

 _> 3\. Never seen the movie Pi?_

No. Would you care to elaborate or educate us on its relevance to the topic?
I'm not trying to be HN-passive-aggressive in a "tell me so I don't have to
Google it" way. I looked it up, don't quite get what you're saying, and don't
have the time to watch an entire movie this very moment.

EDIT: Removed my final question because you answered it elsewhere.

~~~
alexeisadeski3
2\. Not sure there is a point to be had, then. Suburban places virtually
always have ample parking (many claim there is too much parking!). It's not an
inconvenience...

3\. It's a great movie, you should see it! My point is simply that even living
within NYC, you're not ensured to have social interaction. And likewise living
in suburbia doesn't doom one to have little social interaction.

------
gutnor
It is weird how traditional journalism has not caught up with internet
mentality.

What about linking to the study ([http://www.mercer.es/articles/quality-of-
living-survey-repor...](http://www.mercer.es/articles/quality-of-living-
survey-report-2011)), hell, even their official press release contains more
information than Reuters "article".

Also what about giving us the complete list. I suppose the 499$ you need to
pay to get the report give you more meat than simply the list, so why not give
it for free ?

Past years result can be found on good old wikipedia:
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercer_Quality_of_Living_Survey](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercer_Quality_of_Living_Survey)

------
freehunter
On these "most livable" city indexes, I wish they would take into account how
much it costs to live there compared to wages. San Fransisco is high on their
list, but from what I'm hearing, it's really not the panacea that these lists
often make it out to be. High wages, but higher cost of living and horrible
living conditions compared to the Midwest, for example. I have a friend who
just bought a two-story, four bedroom house with two acres of land in a nice
area of Beer City, USA (Grand Rapids, Michigan) for $90,000, and has a 10
mile, 10 minute commute to a downtown office where he's making $70,000/yr. He
can drive his own car and find a place to park in a nicely cultural city of
~200,000.

I don't live in Grand Rapids, but if I were moving somewhere I'd be looking
for a city like that. That is what I would consider highly livable. Can you
find a two-story house with an acre or more of land in SF for not much more
than your yearly salary? I want a list of cities where salary and cost of
living are taken into account along with culture and safety.

~~~
debt
Living conditions? The midwest has been and is still being hit with one of the
worst winters in a few decades.

Also I hear that "land is cheap elsewhere" argument all the time. You're
right; if I was 82 and wanted to settle down I'd buy a ranch somewhere in the
palm desert for 100k, but I'm not. I'm young and I want to work. I'll live in
my shitty apartment in SF long before I whither away on some plot of land in
the midwest any day.

Yes there are cheap houses in swamplands; probably a dollar an acre. But then
what? Cool I have cheap house totally removed from all the action.

However, if that's your thing then do it.

~~~
freehunter
I'm not quite sure what you're trying to say. Did I mention anything about
swampland? Did I mention anything about a desert? Did I mention anything about
being an 82 year old withering away?

I mentioned a nice house in city limits with a short, quick commute downtown
to work in an office making almost as much as the house costs per year.
Weather plays a factor, true, but I wouldn't want to be living in a shitty
apartment in SF when the San Andreas goes off again either. I'm not trying to
be a walking tourist board for a city I don't even live in, but describing a
200,000 person city with the best beer in the country, a major hacker
convention every year (GrrCon) the yearly ArtPrize exhibits, and a great local
music scene as "a desert" or "swampland" is a pretty shitty move on your part.

You seem to have dismissed every single word I said as soon as you read
"midwest". That's not very polite, nor is it appropriate for any kind of
discussion.

~~~
debt
I didn't mean to imply the midwest is a swampland; I'm from the midwest. And I
was serious about the a place in the desert. I wasn't comparing it to
anything, the palm desert outside of LA is amazing and I literally want to
live there one day.

The swampland is more of an exaggeration for the way people talk about why
they _don 't_ want to move to SF, as if the cost of rent is the only reason
one lives anywhere. And the San Andreas thing is another common fear I hear a
lot and have myself. But why should something like fear stop one from living
anywhere?

I live in SF. I commonly hear things from people in Chicago where I'm from
like "yeah but I'm paying $400 for an apartment in Logan Square(which isn't
true any more obvi)" or "yeah but you have to worry about deadly earthquakes".
It gets kind of old because I didn't move out here to pay cheap rent nor did I
move our here to wait for an earthquake to kill me.

~~~
freehunter
I appreciate the civil tone, sorry if I flew off the handle.

SF might be great for some, but it's not for me. Unfortunately, SF, Seattle,
and Vancouver always top the lists and they're all places I wouldn't dream of
living in any time soon. If I'm moving, I don't want to take a pay cut. I
wouldn't trade a $50,000/yr job in the midwest for a $100,000/yr job in SF,
because I'd actually have less money than I do now.

I'd rather be rich in a swamp than poor in a city. I just really wish there
was a list of great cities like Grand Rapids, Pittsburgh, or Kansas City where
you don't have to fight traffic for hours a day, you can actually buy a house
somewhere close to work, but you can also work for a great company doing
something exciting and make a livable wage doing so. As you allude to, most
lists of "best mid size cities" point to retirement-age people.

~~~
debt
SF is the only city in the Bar Area that has absurdly high rent. You could
live in Oakland or anywhere down on the peninsula for much cheaper than you
would in SF. That would allow you to earn a large wage and still pay cheap
rent. It's all in the same geographic area; SF is like Manhattan and
everywhere else are the boroughs.

------
4ad
I live in Vienna and I see these surveys all the time. I moved in Vienna 2.5
years ago. Vienna is a good place to live (otherwise I would have left)
provided you don't care about things that are simply not available, for
example no real IT sector, no startup scene etc. It's okay, but it's nothing
spectacular. I don't understand what these people find so fascinating about
the city. My friends share my opinion too.

I guess the people doing the surveys simply care about completely different
things in life compared to myself. I read their impressions, and I either
don't care about those things at all, or I find them completely wrong. The
reviewer simply has different expectations than myself. For example, a couple
of week ago I've seen another article like this. Among other things, the
author liked the huge variety of beers and cheese found in Vienna. I don't
know exactly why this matters for such a survey but whatever. Anyway, I happen
to be somewhat of a beer and cheese aficionado and in my opinion Austrian beer
is terrible, bland, and all the same. Go to Belgium to find good beer. There
are not too many types of beer. And don't get me started on the cheese.

Of course these things are subjective things, but because they are subjective
things they have no place in such an article.

Other issues are more subtle, for example, nice people. Every article claims
Vienna has nice people but doesn't divulge either the nationality and cultural
background of the reviewer, nor the way said reviewer interacted with viennese
people. For example I don't find anything nice about viennese people because I
grew in a country where attributes associated with nice people are different
than Austrian attributes about nice people. These people may be nice, I'm sure
they are, but I don't see it. Similarly, I'm sure they see _me_ as a
misanthropic, asocial, arrogant individual.

It's the same like with restaurants, an american will complain that european
restaurant service is precarious, I will complain that the western-european
restaurant service is annoying and offensive. The cultural background is
different, expectations in social settings are different. Articles like this
skip over all this stuff.

Anyway, there are some really nice things in Vienna but no article I've seen
mentioned them. They are subjective things, but most of what these article say
is subjective.

~~~
tawan
I live in Vienna too and one thing I like in particular is that despite I live
in a metropole with its 2 million inhabitants, I can jump on my bike in the
summer, ride for twenty minutes to Donau, Vienna's river, and go for a swim,
while being in nature. I can't think of any other city that offers what a
world city has to offer, and being able to enjoy nature to the extent that I
can swim in its river without worrying about pollution. Beat that.

~~~
pallinder
Stockholm, Sweden has the same thing going for it. In the few months of the
year you can actually go swimming without freezing to death that is :)

------
kfk
So, I passed by Vienna kayaking down the Danube. We liked the “Neu Donau”,
basically an unused arm of the Danube with super ultra clean water. People go
there swimming, surfing or just for a walk, it’s super cool. We didn’t really
like the city center, way to posh for us. But then again, we were coming to
Vienna on a kayak from the woods, that might have skewed our vision of the
city.

But overall, if you can, go visit Austria, it’s a small gem. They have this
tradition of doing naked sun baths everywhere, but you do get used to that
after a while.

By the way, I lived in Munich. It’s an amazing city. Lakes, mountains, rivers,
you name it. And German people are super nice, people stereotype them way too
much. I am looking forward to go back to Germany soon. I am really not a big
fan of Dutch/Nordic speaking countries.

~~~
egeozcan
After living in Stuttgart for the last 5 years, I can tell that these
stereotypes describe some Germans perfectly well but the important thing here
is those account for less than 1% of the population.

The remaining 99%? Those are these very friendly people who have this amazing
ability to be relaxed and efficient at the same time.

~~~
MrBuddyCasino
I live there, and in my experience, Stuttgart is not a very good city to live
in, and I know quite some people who share that sentiment. Swabians are
famously unapproachable, though I do respect them a lot.

Thats one reason I'm moving to Munich - anyone knows a good company to work
for there? :)

------
dubfan
These Mercer livability rankings are based on quality of life for expatriates
working for multinational corporations. Every year these rankings make the
headline rounds but articles fail to mention that detail or explain why that's
important. In particular these rankings don't account for cost of living in
the way you would expect if it were a real "quality of living" survey. This
becomes a ranking of "how well you can live in a city on an unlimited budget".

------
fit2rule
I live in Vienna. I don't understand how this is the most liveable city in the
world - unless by liveable, it means "concrete jungle monstrosity - with good
public transportation".

I honestly think this is one of the most oppressive cities in the world, and I
just don't get how it managed to gain this acclaim, every single year. I guess
things must be _really_ bad in a majority of the western world.

The thing is, the city is really not beautiful. A majority of the population
live in apartment buildings that were constructed in the 1870's, where the
primary requirement was "pack as many people into the city block as possible
but don't go over 6 stories". This means that for a majority of citizens, the
sky is but a thin, dull strip.

Perhaps its the public transportation, the access to food (Billa's are
everywhere) and .. the welfare state. In fact, I'm convinced its only because
of the state of welfare that people think Vienna is so great. Remove the AMS
from the equation, and Vienna is a barely suitable concrete jungle.

~~~
stewbrew
Chances are you're a spoiled Viennese CS student.

~~~
fit2rule
There are a lot of those here, but no. I'm Australian. I think Vienna is
monstrous.

~~~
stewbrew
So that's why you were surprised about the kangaroo.

Anyway, do you think other European capitals like Berlin or Paris are any less
"monstrous"?

~~~
fit2rule
No, I don't think they're less monstrous - the fact is that mass populations
living so closely together, in architecture that does not motivate their
interaction as a neighborhood, is a real problem. There are endless rows of
these city-apartment buildings, built to maximize space and landlord profit,
which simply puts people into boxes and discourages interaction. Europe is
full of these cities. So maybe that is why Vienna - where its entirely
_unfashionable_ to despise the city for its physical oppressions - gets the
accolades every year.

Berlin, at least, makes an effort to build community in the neighborhood and
of course Paris has centuries of history with precisely this notion in its
street courses; Vienna has always been an imperial place, and it shows. The
impersonality of the architecture seems to have been long-since inherited.
They even re-built it this way, after the War .. so I believe in fact the
"Concrete Jungle", "City-As-Machine" thing is so strong here, that its just
not noticed any more ..

~~~
stewbrew
Actually, the quality of living in one of those city-apartment buildings can
be quite good. Other than in many other big cities, there are no pure commuter
cities in Vienna (every district also has some old village infrastructure at
its core) and the level of social segregation is rather low. It sounds to me
as if you were rather dissatisfied with your apartment. Maybe you should
consider moving to a different part of Vienna.

~~~
fit2rule
There are very few parts of Vienna that do not feature as a concrete jungle in
my mind. Part of the problem is that Viennese citizens just don't know any
different; they think that because they've got heating and access to the
S-Bahn, that's all they need.

Sorry, but no: a bit of blue sky would also be nice. Neighborhood retreats
that are not commercially driven would be great. Destruction of every 5th
apartment building to make a community space would be fabulous.

But it seems the Viennese cannot even deal with turning a shopping district
into walking streets without wanting to cannibalize each other. The problem
with Vienna is that it promotes dissent between neighbourhoods; even the
preposterously named Districts manifest this fact. The Viennese have
segregation, isolation, and discrimination built into their city as
architectural forms; without some dynamite, there isn't so much hope to change
the condition, alas.

~~~
stewbrew
What about the Donauinsel, the Prater, the Lainzer Tiergarten, the Wienerwald,
and all those smaller parks scattered around the city? I don't think have had
much time yet to learn to know Vienna.

~~~
fit2rule
I know those parks quite well, and have been here quite long enough to have
formed this opinion (>5 years). These parks are wonderful - but they are not
within the city limits, and require the use of transportation systems to get
to them.

They are great places - no question about that - but the city itself remains
monstrous to _live in_ even if you are able to spend a few hours in any of
those parks when you can.. Wienerwald is not in the city limits, Donauinsel -
just barely - Lainzer Tiergarten also on the periphery. Prater is within the
city limits, but this has to be one of the least interesting 'natural spaces'
ever created..

~~~
stewbrew
I don't know which century your Vienna map is from, but the Wienerwald, the
Donauinsel etc. are all within city limits. As I said before, maybe you should
considering moving to another district. It took me, erm, 15 years to move
beyond the Gürtel -- i.e. closer to the above places. Today I'm asking myself
what took me so long.

~~~
fit2rule
The city itself is what took you so long. Take a good hard look - did you
always know what was beyond the wall?

For the record, I live outside the city limits, at the tip of the Donauinsel,
and frequent the area often.. yes, Donauinsel is 'in the city of Vienna', but
it still takes on average 3 train rides through the concrete jungle to get
there for the average citizen.

Wienerwald is definitely not something I'd consider 'within the city limits'
\- its close, and the city is surrounded by it, but again - we're talking
about the city, not its surrounding towns. The city of Vienna is a concrete
jungle, and has been so for centuries - its citizens, and this is my point,
have become acclimated to it and no longer see The Wall. Its still there,
though. You just demonstrated this fact..

------
fractallyte
I've been living here for the last six weeks. Coincidentally, yesterday was
the initial induction session for candidate startups shortlisted for 'Go
Silicon Valley', organized by the Austrian Economic Chambers (WKO). For such a
small city, there certainly seemed to be a respectable number of startup
teams...

Today was sunny and warm(ish), so I left my apartment and computer, travelled
30 minutes across town to Heiligenstadt,and shortly after was lying on a
hillside overlooking the city. Quiet and refreshing.

Coming back into town by tram, then walking, the bustle of the streets around
St Stephen's cathedral was quite a contrast. Now I'm back here in front of the
machine, picking away at a cake, amused at this timely article. Vienna
certainly is beautiful in parts, grungy in others. But so far, all the people
I've met have been friendly and accommodating. Transport is excellent. The
cakes are amazing.

Definitely liveable!

------
Evgeny
Don't forget that there are multiple "most liveable cities", according to
different reports.

Melbourne ranked world's most liveable city - again

[http://www.smh.com.au/travel/travel-news/melbourne-ranked-
wo...](http://www.smh.com.au/travel/travel-news/melbourne-ranked-worlds-most-
liveable-city--again-20130828-2sprk.html)

~~~
morganherlocker
This is common in many industries as well. Practically every car model gets
awarded "Best XYZ 2014!". I have definitely noticed the trend with companies
in my area, of which 5 seem to all hold the title of "Best Place to Work".

------
gst
"Most liveable" always depends on what factors are important to you. If you
average out everything I guess Vienna looks quite nice: Low income disparity,
good social security system, low crime rate, etc.

But if you're a HN reader it might not be the optimal place to live for you: A
population that's in general quite hostile to entrepreneurship, insane amounts
of bureaucracy, laws that make it unnecessarily hard to run your own company,
etc. Apart from that the weather is terrible, large parts of the population
are hostile to immigration and are quite racist, people are grumpy all the
time, ...

------
julianpye
It is interesting that besides Auckland, the top three cities basically share
the same culture - Munich shares more with Vienna and Zurich, than with Berlin
or Hamburg. That culture is deeply rooted Catholic, bourgeois, orderly with
little crime and corruption.

------
matlock
Ever plan on visiting Vienna? Why not live there and build tools for other
developers. We are hiring at Codeship
([https://www.codeship.io](https://www.codeship.io)) for our Vienna office.

And if you ever come visit the city let me know at flo@codeship.io. Happy to
show the HN crowd around town.

------
sirwitti
Funnily enough the viennese people are considered grumpy and often rude
compared to the rest of austria :)

but still, the city is awesome!

martin, living in vienna

~~~
xmr
I visited at christmas and it felt like people were very reserved and yes at
times quite rude / snobbish. Apart from that, seemed like a nice place.

------
adrianh
I've actually been thinking of moving to Vienna. Anybody in Vienna have a
moment to type out some thoughts on what it's like to live there?

~~~
raverbashing
Granted, I visited for a couple of days, but I was positively and deeply
surprised by it.

Everything seems nice. The city is Beautiful. Public trams go everywhere and
the transport system is top notch.

Cons: they speak "Bavarian German" and they seem to be paranoid about the
internet (more than in Germany). They have cold winters as well if I'm not
mistaken.

~~~
matlock
>Bavarian German

you wouldn't want to say that in Vienna though :). We are pretty proud of our
Austrian German. Winters are cold, and summers are hot, but still fine. Really
nice to live here though.

~~~
raverbashing
Oh sure, it's Austrian German :) But I still couldn't get anything they threw
at me, except when they spoke Hochdeutsch

But then again since my German is not the greatest they would switch pretty
quickly to English.

------
lazyjones
Vienna is good overall, but it's passive smoking hell. 99% of all clubs ignore
non-smoking laws according to a recent study and you often find particle
concentrations higher than on a busy road inside various cafes/clubs and
washing all your clothes after a night in a busy place is a must. For some
people this will be a sign of relaxed, "laissez-faire" style life, for others
like me this is unbearable and I hate it.

The Mercer study Reuters mentions is, by the way, apparently only based on a
few publicly available key statistical indicators and not on actual surveys.

------
DrJokepu
I will take this seriously when Mercer and Reuters will move their corporate
headquarters from the 6th Avenue in Manhattan and Canary Wharf in London
respectively to Vienna.

~~~
illumen
Can you prove the real owners don't live there already?

~~~
DrJokepu
Can you prove that they do?

------
finishingmove
I had to look up the whole list, and found it on wikipedia
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cities_by_quality_of_li...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cities_by_quality_of_living#cite_note-2)
(link to PDF at the bottom). It's for 2012.

Judge for yourself.

------
udit99
Can anyone comment on the startup/tech scene in Vienna? I need to move there
for some immigration reasons and am trying to figure out what kind of jobs I
can look forward to. Also, how easy can it be to get by at the workplace with
english + broken German ?

------
arbuge
Perhaps the most liveable city if you speak German...

------
dpeck
They certainly like their dogs and gelato more any other city I've been to.

~~~
ulfw
You haven't been to Santa Monica then...

