
'My son spent £3,160 in one game' - open-source-ux
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-48925623
======
_hardwaregeek
I strongly believe that video games today are comparable to alcohol in the
60's. Y'know, how people in the 60's would say "Oh Johnny just likes his
liquor" when Johnny's drinking at 9AM, drunk at 10 and hungover by 2. Right
now we have people who are facing serious problems with video games, and yet
we brush them off casually and callously. I can't count the number of stories
on reddit about playing video games all day and all night, at the expense of
one's social life, academic success and even career. That's not normal
behavior; it's behavior indicative of addiction and dependency. And I'm
referring to adults. For kids, who lack executive functions, this behavior can
and is even worse, even more debilitating.

Now, regulating video games like alcohol may not be the best idea. We could
end up in a similar state of binge drinking, except with binge playing. But
perhaps some sort of preventative measure can be taken so that kids do not get
sucked into these games that are, make no mistake, maliciously designed to
addict and to steal money from the vulnerable. Even alcohol manufacturers
don't dose their products with nicotine.

~~~
ej10
Anecdata:

I live this, I agree with you. An MMO was the only thing in my life I've
stayed up all night for and then been able to set an alarm and wake up for
after 2 hours of sleep. This was a game I committed to for 14 years. I've
slept through finals, been tardy my entire life, yet for this MMO I could do
anything. I was "sick" instead of seeing my girlfriend, I was otherwise
occupied instead of working, or school.

I made the conscious decision years ago to never install WoW for exactly this
reason. In the same way AA teaches that an alcoholic is always an alcoholic
but can be sober, I choose to stay sober. I miss it. I think about it. But I
have to make the active, conscious decision to 'choose life'.

~~~
madaxe_again
Hear hear.

I’m madaxe. I’m an addict.

I wasted 18 months of university on an MMO, 15 years ago. Cost me my social
life, my girlfriend, and I found myself on academic probation.

It was absolutely insidious. I only found my way out of it by becoming a GM
and then banning my own account, because even though I’d made the decision I
wanted to stop, I just kept finding myself downloading and installing the
client, yet again. It worked, I completed my degree, rekindled friendships. I
did relapse about four years later while working a shitty boring QA job, and
decided to treat the root cause, which was the shitty job, and went and
started a business - and then didn’t game at all for nearly a decade.

Weirdly, my addiction and my physical running away from the environment that
fostered it lead to much of the success that I have enjoyed since. It made
things so intolerably bad that a ground change was mandatory.

I game again now, but it’s now on the order of about 5 hours a week on average
- I’ll still occasionally spend a sleepless weekend playing something, but
then I’ll go a month without. I like finite games - some adventure with an
enthralling plot, and when it’s over, it’s over - or grand strategy like civ,
where you master the game and move on - and frankly I find a three day deity
match gruelling enough that it’ll be three months or more before I get the
itch again.

I’ll never touch an MMO again - they are almost perfect and infinite skinner
boxes.

~~~
danielscrubs
I’m scrubs, I’m an addict. Spent my youth programming, going from language to
language.

I was learning and it led me to jobs and I’m grateful for that, but my
memories of youth is me in a dark room in front of a big monitor and a buzzing
light that never really worked right.

I have almost no other memories of it.

was it worth spending my youth so that I could be 15% more productive at some
firm?

Even now I come home, kiss my gf and then sit in front of the computer to
chase the next big thing, mostly because when I come home I am to tired to do
anything else than just programming.

There was some research on HN where they found that programming (successful
run/compilation) led to similar dopamine boosts as gambling.

My neck, back and hands all hurt, but I do what I always do.

------
Lazare
I think an obvious solution here is simply to strengthen consumer protection
laws and shift the burden of preventing this from the consumer to the vendor.

The common thread in all these stories was "a kid spends a bunch of money,
parent asks for a refund, is told no". But consider if the law says that
digital goods such as this _must_ be refunded on demand unless you can prove
the purchaser wasn't a child. (If you want to really drive the point home, add
a penalty clause for abuse, so you have to refund 150% of the total if there's
evidence of any attempt to target minors, hide the charges, dark patterns,
etc.)

If Apple becomes statutorily required to refund the money, they'll get very
good very quickly at kicking bad actors off their platform.

This shouldn't be a system where parents try and protect themselves and their
children and scummy vendors try and exploit them; it should be a shystem where
_Apple_ (and the other platforms and market operators) try to protect
themselves and scummy vendors try and exploit _them_. Leave liability with the
people most able to protect themselves, not the least able.

I don't think bans or treating games like drugs is needed; if you remove the
financial incentive of being abusive, you'll stop the abuse.

~~~
ldoughty
I think parents need to understand that you can't give children a credit card,
or credit-card like power.

I was 14 before I was given access to a credit card.. and was given a dire
warning about when it could and should be used.

If parents can't lock out purchases so they have to physically approve each
purchase, then yes, they should be able to get refunds and penalties... But if
they give their children the password to buy/download apps unsupervised, they
need to understand the consequences (and really, how the heck do you not
realize that unlimited purchasing power on an app store is a possibility?)

The first story in this article is about a kid with "the mental development of
a 7 year old"... Well.... I wouldn't give MY 7 year old a credit card!
Supervise your children! If it's too much work to monitor their purchases and
approve each one, complain to the platform for more control. It would take
Apple, Google, Steam, etc. <120 hours of work to implement a "Monthly budget"
system if people demanded it.

Btw, how do you miss that 3,200 pounds is spent over 3-4 months, if that
clears out your bank account? I'd agree that 14 days is a bit short for a
refund period, but asking for 4 months to return digital goods that have been
thoroughly used by that point..... might as well shut down all the game
studios...

~~~
Lazare
> It would take Apple, Google, Steam, etc. <120 hours of work to implement a
> "Monthly budget" system if people demanded it.

Or if the legal system assigned liability to them until they did. :)

------
djhworld
The amount of crap in the app stores that encourage this sort of behaviour is
truly, truly shocking.

The gaming community often lambast companies like EA etc for loot boxes
("surprise mechanics"), which is definitely a problem that needs to go away,
but from this article I suspect there's a lot of examples of absolute bottom
of the barrel shovelware on the app stores that's raking it in from accidental
purchases from children or vulnerable adults.

I remember Apple saying they were putting together some sort of curated
program for high quality games, maybe with a subscription model. Which is cool
and everything but creating a two-tier system doesn't solve the underlying
problem.

Maybe any transaction should have a 2FA style system where the cardholder need
to explicitly approve it through their phone. Or maybe a daily spending cap or
something like that

~~~
madeofpalk
> Maybe any transaction should have a 2FA style system

It does - at least on Apple devices, IAP need to be authenticated with a
physical interaction, and Touch/Face ID.

~~~
djhworld
I was thinking more as in, sending the approval to a separate device, but
obviously that wouldn't work if you just have one device that you let your
kids play on.

~~~
ska
I think Apple already (can) do that - but as you note it doesn't help with a
shared device.

------
throwaway13337
Mobile free to play games now make up the majority of money made in video
games today.

It's strange then that most of these games aren't that interesting. Who are
the players of these that make up the new class of gamers?

It would seem that the payers are the exploitable - those able to be swindled
with casino mechanisms.

As an ex- free-to-play game developer and one who believes regulation often
does more harm to consumers than good, I'd like to see something done. I'm
just at a loss for what would work.

~~~
LanceH
How about the app stores classifying them?

I've tried looking for games I could buy outright. Try finding a game without
ads or in app purchases. It is extremely difficult to search by those
criteria.

~~~
codebje
I've been trying to find such games for my kids (4 & 6) - there really are no
search options to help.

Indiscriminate third party advertising and freemium games are going to cause
significant long-term harm to mobile gaming, and possibly also to society as a
whole.

There's still some games out there that use IAP in small doses (<10 total) to
sell reasonably sized chunks of content, but they don't make the money that
freemium games do.

(My own device operates on the same rules as my kids - no third party
advertising, no freemium IAP stuff. There's really nothing to miss in that
space anyway…)

------
cwkoss
Every game should have to display a "Maximum cost of online play" on the cover
with ESRB rating and on the app store listing. If not limited just show
($10,000+).

Would give parents a rough idea of how exploitive a game's online currency
system is.

~~~
ryandrake
Wouldn’t they all say “$10,000+” in that case? Are there really any games out
there that stop you before you make a purchase saying “You already spent $100
this month. Please don’t give us any more of your money!”

~~~
nexuist
For apps that have their own currency, it's of course possible to spend $10k+.
But before every exploitative game hopped on the custom currency bandwagon,
you used to be able to buy skins/guns/characters/etc. outright with real
money. If my game allowed you to buy 5 characters each worth $10, then I could
accurately claim the max IAP profit from each user for me would be $50.

~~~
megla_
But you're talking about one-time purchases, which is common for apps, but not
so much for games. But even in apps you have monthly subscriptions that still
_somewhat skew_ the way you perceive the price. What's the max IAP profit for
Netflix or Spotify? (Subscriptions bought through the app still net a cut to
the store provider.)

Virtual currencies are a scam on its own, but even games without them can be
exploitative. The monetization of games has become so frequent, that's it's
basically accepted as something ordinary. I've noticed that some developers
don't even bother creating a currency anymore, you just get the Playstore €
prompt for the item you want to buy.

Most free games are built on the premise that it's never-ending or always
expanding. Either you can upgrade to infinity or keep playing, because they
keep adding new content. I don't think I've ever stumbled upon a game where
you have limited things to buy.

The only solution I see, which is just plain unrealistic, is to put IAP apps
into a seperate category. I've started doing this, by not downloading apps
that have the "Includes IAP" and I'm pretty satisfied. I don't think any
game/app should be qualified as _FREE_ , if half of it is locked behind a
paywall.

------
bancars
I’m really confused why “maybe make it impossible for this to happen” is so
controversial. People fuck up sometimes. Kids are tough. And as peddlers of
technology the onus is on us to make people’s lives better, not worse, which
includes having the tiniest bit of compassion and maybe using some of those VC
millions to prevent these kinds of things. Do y’all truly believe that
everyone that this happens to was being careless? Is there no room for an
honest mistake?

------
anonymous5133
Not sure how many people know this but you can use a service like privacy.com
to get burner credit card numbers. For example, you can create a burner credit
card number that only works one time or has a specific spend limit (like $20
per transaction or $20 total in transactions per month). Credit cards/debit
cards are inherently insecure because the credit card number can be reused by
anyone who has the code.

It is a free service. If the parents in the article used a service like that
then all of their spending problems would be solved because junior couldn't
charge the card any further. All additional transactions would simply be
declined.

The article talks about government regulation, but the government honestly has
better things to worry about than what junior is spending on apps. People
simply need to use the existing services, like privacy.com, to control their
spending.

~~~
baobabKoodaa
Well, that's a thinly veiled advertisement, but hey, at least it's
tangentially related to the topic.

------
vorpalhex
But how do you tell the difference between an adult and a kid with their
parents password and bank card?

If you trust your kid with your bank account and get burned.. isn't that kind
of on you?

~~~
mac_was
Did you read the article at all? A game says it is for 3 years old and above
and it uses trickery to manipulate a 5 year old into thinking that real money
is just game coins. How are you supposed to control that?

~~~
BlueGh0st
By actually parenting your kid and what they do instead of just plopping them
down in front of the app store?

------
filoleg
Another one of those oversensationalized outrage articles that can be boiled
down to "I cannot put even a minimal effort in keeping an eye on my children,
so I will blame someone else for it and make it their responsibility." There
is literally a setting on iOS for that specific specific scenario, which
allows to prevent in-app purchases[0]. And it is very easy and intuitive to
set up too, so it isn't like it is hidden behind millions of menus and dark
patterns.

0\. [https://support.apple.com/en-gb/HT204396](https://support.apple.com/en-
gb/HT204396)

~~~
ajross
> "I cannot put even a minimal effort in keeping an eye on my children, so I
> will blame someone else for it and make it their responsibility."

For centuries, it's been trivially possible for parents to manage their
children's access to funds. Nineteenth century homesteaders could send their
kids off to market with appropriate funds to buy what they needed. Now all of
a sudden this doesn't work and kids by default have access to near infinite
(at their scales) lines of credit because of internet purchasing.

Why is this burden suddenly on the parents? Why can't app vendors (and in
particular their middlemen who manage the purchases) make even a minimal
effort at not having this system be broken by default?

~~~
thaumasiotes
> Nineteenth century homesteaders could send their kids off to market with
> appropriate funds to buy what they needed. Now all of a sudden this doesn't
> work and kids by default have access to near infinite (at their scales)
> lines of credit because of internet purchasing.

Huh? The old model is working just as well as ever. Why would you give your
kid your credit card? Have them make their internet purchases with a gift
card, the non-insane way.

~~~
d1zzy
Almost all major credit cards have a system to generate virtual card numbers
with dollar limits on them. Generate a virtual card number with some limit,
give to the kid or configure it on their device. Every time you need to
increase the limit you have to login on a site that only the parent has access
to.

------
subsaharancoder
No child wakes up one morning and decides to do this, it's often a steady
progression enabled by parents who have relegated their responsibilities to TV
screens, video games and mobile phones. Casting blame on tech that they've let
loose on their kids absolves the parents of any responsibility.

~~~
sdwa
These games are literally designed to exploit vulnerable people, and they use
every trick in the book to do it. Criticising parents for not being able to
defend against the fruits of millions of hours of labour spent on marketing
and r&d which exists solely to exploit is honestly shameful, as if parenting
isn't difficult enough already. Do you really think gaming companies
exploiting children by introducing them to gambling is the fault of the
parents? What next, is the tobacco industry blameless too? Just a tiny bit of
empathy on your part for people rather than capitalists would go a long way I
think.

~~~
ahje
I agree with what you are saying, I really do, but it's still a really bad
idea to give a child access to an store account connected to a credit or debit
card.

This problem needs to be solved in both ends.

~~~
sdwa
Indeed, but it's only such a truly awful idea exactly because there are a lot
of predators out there with no morals looking to prey on children. If a kid
went into a physical shop with a credit card and tried to buy something, he
wouldn't get anywhere.

------
notus
This is disgusting. Yes parents should be aware of these things but shifting
the burden of locking down every system a child uses when this could be
handled at the app store or financial processor level is ridiculous. It seems
that some of these people are claiming that the game is not distinguishing
well between fake and real currency. There are definitely games I've played
where this is ambiguous as well.

IMO there needs to be a more rigorous opt-in process for different types of
apps. You can opt in for automatic purchases for utility type apps but not for
game purchases for example and it needs to be off by default. There also needs
to be ways for people to get their money back in certain situations. If a
child has a cognitive disability of some kind then holding them accountable
seems kind of exploitative. Parents can prove these things with documentation
and if proven the money should be refunded.

~~~
madeofpalk
But still though, they gave the kid their credit card. If you don't want your
kid to spend £3000 then don't give it to them?

Not defending any particular app's behaviour. Without any first hand
knowledge, I certainly believe that there are scummy games out there using
dubious methods to get people to rack up IAP.

~~~
commandlinefan
> they gave the kid their credit card

These systems are set up so you really don’t have much choice, though. My son
will come to me and say, “Dad, I have some money from Grandma, can I use it to
buy willywhacker 2 for my iPod?” I’ll say, “sure” - then he’ll hand me the $5
he got from Grandma and I’ll type my credit card number into wherever the game
expects it to be and try to check the “don’t remember this card for future
use” check box (if it’s there and if the game actually honors it). My kids are
really good about asking before they make purchases, but a lot of these apps
are designed to trick you - that’s how they make profits.

~~~
JD557
This seems like a nice use case for virtual credit cards with a very strict
limit (just create one with $5).

~~~
oposa
There is a lot you can do, but you shouldn't have to. This isn't someone
burning down their school. This is the first world becoming the third world in
digital.

In the third world you always to watch yourself so you don't hurt, scammed or
abused with little recourse. So being curious, doing something different or
challenging the status quo becomes a liability. Eventually there isn't much
development at all, only corruption and people knowing their place.

When you buy something in a store with cash in person, after having it shown
by an employee, you can still in most cases return the thing at your will. But
when some clicks a button moving a few bytes with a digital payment that in
reality costs nothing, there is of course nothing that can be done. This
industry is just increasingly rubbish.

Don't click this, don't open that e-mail and don't answer the phone. You don't
know who it is from or who it is going to. Don't have that password, don't
type it there, don't have it too long and don't make it too short. We can
automate your job, but not authentication. Don't publish that, don't vote like
this and don't live here. Know your place.

(At least my banks haven't offered virtual cards for many years).

~~~
hombre_fatal
Well, then the USA was "third world" long before in-app purchases. When you
give someone your debit/CC info, they can basically pull infinitely from your
account at any point in the future thus you have to remain eternally vigilant
because you once gave someone $5. Which you didn't even do. You gave them the
key to your account and trusted them to only take $5, that's how crazy our
system is.

Better financial tools/primitives would have gone a long way to prevent the
issue in the article which most Americans don't have. I shouldn't need my bank
to hopefully create a "virtual card" feature (it doesn't). It should've been
ubiquitous 20+ years ago.

This is one reason I use Paypal: I can see a list of organizations authorized
to take money out of my account. My bank account and credit cards? I have no
fucking idea who might show up next month. Maybe that thing I "canceled" on
their website four months ago?

Or I use bitcoin because it's basically cash.

------
la_barba
Giving a smartphone to an underage person is also like giving them a credit
card, a phone that can be used to call any tolled number, a way to access
inappropriate content, etc, etc.

~~~
falcolas
Any gaming console today has the exact same issues, just hidden by it being a
"gaming console".

FIFA, specifically, is not a mobile phone game. It's a console game with
gambling-alike microtransactions.

~~~
jsgo
Madden, a cornerstone of gaming for a lot of people really, has it too with
Ultimate Team or whatever.

------
_nalply
In civil law countries it is outright illegal for purchases of children going
through if parents disapprove.

For example art. 19 Swiss Civil Code ([https://www.admin.ch/opc/en/classified-
compilation/19070042/...](https://www.admin.ch/opc/en/classified-
compilation/19070042/index.html#a19)) says: «[...] may only enter into
obligations [...] with the consent of their legal representative.»

In other words, children can only «buy» things if parents don't object.

However I can imagine that it is sometimes simply impossible to get the monay
back. National law as empty words.

------
herpderperator
I understand this isn't addressing the issue at hand, but having notifications
sent to your phone whenever a purchase/swipe is made on a credit card is
incredibly useful. It might be moot if the device receiving the notifications
is being used by the person making the transaction, but I would recommend
everyone to set up such a thing if their bank supports it. And, all banks
should do this eventually!

I get instant purchase notifications on my bank cards; it's really good to
know exactly when they get used.

~~~
HenryBemis
Most banks in this world don't provide this service. This is why my "spending"
debit card is Monzo because its all kicks ass!!! The second I spend £££, the
Monzo app bleeps and shows me the amount and the store (with address, company
logo etc.) I was shocked that big banks in the UK like Barclays, NatWest et
al, don't bother alerting their clients immediately.

------
droithomme
You have to be 21 to play the slots in Vegas. It's recognized as not a good
idea to allow casinos and gaming rooms to extend access to addictive gambling
games to children.

Gambling is also banned for everyone in many states, not just children, as the
damage to society of allowing enterprises to prey on addictive personality
types and create misery is recognized.

These laws need to be applied to online games as well.

------
gringoDan
This seems to be the equivalent of buying digital scratch-off lottery tickets.
So you could make the argument that in-app purchases should be regulated in
the same way that gambling is.

However, you could also argue that it's the equivalent of buying a pack of
Pokémon cards, baseball cards, etc. - which are not regulated.

My intuition tells me that given the addictiveness and how this
disproportionately affects the most vulnerable members of society, the
practice should be regulated much more tightly. Also, given that these are
digital goods, a more relaxed "return" policy shouldn't harm any company that
is offering in-app purchases in a good-faith / non-exploitative manner.

------
Arn_Thor
What were these parents thinking? This isn't a new issue. People have been
reading stories like this in the news for a decade and still they hand their
kid their iPad and say "go play over there while dad watches the news..."

You can literally use your phone and google/apple account as a credit card
nowadays. It's irresponsible to just hand that to a child. Ignorance is not an
excuse. (that said, of course there should be consumer protections in place to
limit the damage)

~~~
neilalexander
I disagree that it's as simple as just blaming the parents. As a technical
community it is easy for us to assert that there are probably optional
restrictions somewhere but many parents who are not technically-minded will
not necessarily make that connection. Manufacturers/vendors of these devices
simply don't do a good job of advertising to parents about these risks and the
options available to restrict them.

iOS, as an example, does have the ability to disable in-app purchases using
the "Content & Privacy Restrictions" settings, but unless you dig through the
device settings and found them (under "Screen Time" no less) then you would
not know that those options exist. Given the obscure naming reducing the
chance of them ever being found, they had might as well not exist.

Apple could do things to improve this. They could clearly ask about parental
controls up-front during the device initial setup, they could clearly place
them at the top-level of the Settings app and label them "Parental Controls",
they could even include a bit of paper in the box or some printed text on the
packaging that explains where to find those options.

They do none of those things.

~~~
Arn_Thor
I'd argue it's the parents responsibility to educate themselves in this
regard. Again, this isn't new news. If you can make a purchase on the device,
your child can make that purchase too. Certainly, the OS can flag more
warnings during the setup of the device etc. but I doubt the people getting
into this situation will pay any more attention than they've evidently done so
far (which is to say very little)

------
darkpuma
It's astonishing that the developers of games like this can sleep at night. Do
they lie to themselves and pretend all the kids spending thousands of dollars
are the children of Saudi royals or something? They must know that they're
exploiting people who can't afford it.

Edit: these developers know damn well if their target demo is children, and
they know damn well that the phenomenon of children running up huge debts
without the _informed_ consent of their parents is all too common. They know
what they're doing; they can't plead ignorance. At best they are self-deluded,
but it's more likely they are morally corrupt. Blinded by their love for
money, totally indifferent to the suffering their business model causes.

It's absolutely revolting, and so is anybody defending it by implicitly
asserting that it's okay for developers to exploit children if their parents
happen to be careless or neglectful. _" The parents are to blame for allowing
it"_ does _not_ absolve the developers who knowingly profit from it. Should it
be legal for me to sell cigarettes to a child if their parents were foolish
enough to give the child a credit card? Of course not, fuck off with that
shit.

~~~
o_p
One would assume that children spending was authorized by their parents.

~~~
megous
Who spends the price of an iPhone (per month, for months on end) on some
stupid game?

One (game dev) would have to be very much full of it, to assume this is legit.
And, that they never responded to the parents tells it all.

~~~
Konnstann
People who can buy an iPhone a month for months on end and not care. One of my
friends is a whale, he just doesn't really care about the expense.

~~~
megous
I doubt it's all that common, though.

------
_ph_
I am shocked, that it is legal to offer simple games which allow in-app
purchases of this size. If you compare these games to any AAA title which goes
for like $70 or less, this isn't ethical in the first place.

With the money spent by a child, there should be no way to enforce the bill.
Here in Germany, children cannot do business transactions which exceed the
range of typical pocket money, so we are talking a few dollars here. Any
business larger than that would require the parents to agree to be valid.
Invalid transactions can be reversed.

And when pointing out towards parents negligence: keep in mind that there are
no multiple accounts on iOS devices and there are good reasons to spend money
to buy apps on a device. Of course, with enough understanding of the
technology, parents would set it up so that the password is required for every
purchase. The question is, is this a reasonable request for non-tech parents?

So if Apple wants to be in a position of morale, as they pitch themselves,
they should put reasonable limits to in-app purchases, especially towards
these games.

------
hyayz
>he managed to download Clash of Clans through a Google Play account, enter
his own children's bank card details and buy lots of in-game items.

Wait, why the fuck does a 12 year old child have a bank card?

~~~
Thiez
Why not? How else are they going to learn how to handle money? Or do you
believe children should receive every adult responsibility all at once on
their 18th birthday?

Sadly these app publishers take advantage while these kids are still learning.
The boy probably would never have spent £700 on the game if that had to be
spent upfront. "Microtransactions" in games can't die soon enough.

~~~
ihuman
> Why not? How else are they going to learn how to handle money?

Cash? You don't need a debit/credit card to pay for things. You can buy
iTunes/Google gift cards with cash if you want funds for your account.

------
elamje
Games can be an escape, just as book reading can be an escape. The problem
lies in that the book ends, but the game goes on for months, years, or
decades.

Many people bring up the positivity of quitting, or minimizing, social media.
The same thing could be extended to gaming.

I have quit social media, only using twitter to follow my interests, and quit
gaming back in high school. Both of which took many, many weeks away from my
life.

I am amazed at how much time I have outside of work compared to my peers that
are hooked on social media or gaming!

All that being said, neither are evil, and both can be fun, but for many
people they silently rob you of precious time, and peace.

It helps to view things not on a micro, hours per day, scale, but on a
lifetime scale. 2 hours gaming daily, 5 times a week, from age 10-30 is well
over a YEAR of your life! Now consider the binge gaming phases of life and it
certainly takes a lot shorter of a time to hit 1 year.

~~~
fkdo
> I have quit social media

The comments section of Hacker News is social media.

~~~
elamje
I guess I have just replaced it then :/

------
lilactown
One thing that I haven't used on my Switch (no kids), but I understand as a
great feature, is that you can add funds available for games as a one-time
purchase that can be used across the system.

The actual purchase of system currency can be controlled while allowing the
dependent to make their own choices on how to spend it.

------
jsgo
I stopped buying FIFA/Madden/etc. games. The team building mode seems like
it'd be fun, but oh damn, you only have x games you can use that specific
player so you have to buy contracts which costs points and good luck trying to
stack your team with various players by making good trades vs the spend funds
approach.

Give me a game where I can play it and GM it in such a way that if I make Joe
Blow look like a star, I can trade him for an actual star and repeat the
process until I have the dream team I want or whatever without spending money,
I'll buy the game again. The last Madden I bought was the one with Gronkowski
in the opening animation and was just disgusted with the "fun" mode being
weighted heavily against you just playing and having fun.

~~~
kevin_b_er
You are permanently limited on how many times you can make a team with a
player unless you pay more??

As someone who's never touched the sports games who grew up on old non-
internet consoles that you can't replay the same thing is utter madness. You
can't use the same player over in another attempt??? Do you run out of
players?

~~~
jsgo
From my personal experience, I played for like 2-3 weeks. You get a starter
set with mostly mediocre cards (card based UI) and then one decent and then a
great card (defensive player for me and a few other people I know; don't know
if it can be someone offensive).

From there, you can do little skill things for points which can be turned in
for either more cards or contracts. These are mostly skill drill type things
and not really "I'm playing a football game as my team vs the Bears" or
something though there are some. Don't know if the events refresh so you can
unlock more points as I only played a few weeks. So there's the no pay options
of keeping things going as far as I could tell.

One week I got a Greg Olsen card as part of some event promo thing. Worked
very well as a tight end in Ultimate Team. A week or two later it was around
Super Bowl or something and received Dak Prescott. So solid passing tandem.
Then, after a few games, contracts are coming up. At first it was Dak and it
cost a lot to keep him. Then, I had burned so many on him that I didn't have
many left for whoever it was that was my DE (it was a moderately good stats
guy. Not great, but serviceable). So I lose him and the second string guy
takes his spot. After a few more games, another boot falls and more attrition.
Lost Greg Olsen because I was a few contracts short and just quit because it
was basically a team of second string players by then.

Dunno, I'm all for a GM/player hybrid mode, but I'd rather feel like I'm
gaining something when losing something on the GM end.

------
FraKtus
My daughter is playing several of those games such as Roblox on her iPad; she
can't install new applications of buy credits without me entering the password
in the apple store.

The cool part of doing that is that I ask her to convince me why she needs
those credits, what she will use them for, doing that I can understand what
she does in the game and see if it fit her. Another side of those games is
that they have a social side and you can interact with other kids, so it's
important to know that and make sure your kid understands that not everybody
can be nice on a social network.

In the end, I don't understand a parent that gives that power to their
children...

------
foxfired
Most parents do not spend time playing the games their children play (HN is an
outlier here). I see parents giving their phones to their children with an
active credit card on file. Its not really the parents fault, how could they
know?

All the games start as fun and innocent. It's when the child get past level
twenty that the difficulty kicks in. You have to pay to make any significant
progress. Most kids don't know any better, all they do is press the button to
progress. The parents don't know any better, all they did was give the phone
to their restless child.

The game developer however, designed it specifically to trick both parent and
child.

------
Balgair
Other posters point out something that I found to be unexpected: The ESRB does
not rate mobile games.

Now, yes, the ESRB ratings are not anything to stake your life on, but they do
give parents and organizations _something_ to go off. Does the ESRB have
_massive_ problems? Yes, of course. Do mobile games need to have some sort of
rating system? I'd think that most people would say _something_ would be
really nice

Perhaps the ESRB, or an expanded board of a similar nature, should expand
their mission to not only rate the content in a mobile game but also should
give card-holders a better idea of what the gaming market's financial risks
are?

~~~
j4kp07
ESRB is not a legal regulation and has zero authority. It is merely a
privately held company that holds the copyrights to their system of rating
video games.

------
kevin_b_er
The gambling industry got into the gaming industry. You are looking at the
result: Children are gambling.

~~~
contravariant
Although gambling consists of convincing the gambler they will get real money
in return, while these games seem to be trying to convince the gamer that they
aren't spending real money.

It's definitely similar but the difference could be important.

------
ysavir
Is there any way to link the games/play account/icloud accounts to a wallet
with limited funds?

I feel like the real problem here is how these games link up to a payment
method that isn't actually intended to be used for the game. Unlinking them
from each other should go a long way to resolve these "my child spent a lot of
money because I gave them access to all my money" problems.

------
en4bz
If you haven't seen it all ready just take a look at the infamous "Let's Go
Whaling!" talk here [1]. They're not even hiding the fact the these are the
type of people Free2Play/Pay2Win games prey on anymore.

[1].
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xNjI03CGkb4](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xNjI03CGkb4)

------
IntegralCalcs
Growing up I was often nervous of accidentally purchasing something in an app
store or other online accounts. Free trials will not always notify you when
your free trial is up and your payments will automatically go through.
Personally I believe regulations are necessary in order to avoid accidental
payments for expensive applications.

------
kitchenkarma
Every generation has problems like this. I remember my friend become addicted
to calling premium phone numbers when when he was a teenager. When his parents
went to work, he would have stayed home and just keep calling all day instead
of going to school. Only when the bill came through post his parents went mad
and started to blame everyone but themselves. Eventually they got premium
numbers blocked, but his son was spending all the money he could get his hands
on on call cards. It was a phase for him, he stopped doing that after few
months. When he talked about it years later, he couldn't believe that he did
this. He says he wishes his parents gave him more attention and explained to
him what it is about and why it makes no sense to do something like this.
Fascist love such stories, because they can use them to tell people how they
should live and create more regulations.

------
DanBC
There's a bunch of people in this thread saying "but what about the parents",
and a bunch of other people in this thread saying "but dark patterns", and
they're both missing the point.

If you're in the industry and making money from IAPs, especially from lootbox
IAPs, the one thing you need to know is that governments are coming for you.

If you're Apple or Google taking 30% of those IAPs (and also not paying much
tax) then government is coming after that money.

If you're a publisher selling games for children, marketed to children, with
hundreds or thousands of dollars of IAPs then governments are coming after you
too.

Articles like this are a clear and simple warning: fix your shit, sort out
sensible industry self-regulation, or face EU wide regulation.

We have plenty of examples to prove that the EU or individual governments are
not afraid of bringing in fierce regulation.

------
bartimus
I'm mostly surprised how there's still people not aware of in-app purchases in
2019.

------
mythz
This is why we have IAP's disabled on all devices and avoid any pay-to-win
games. Unfortunately an overwhelming number of game developers are focused
around gamifying IAP's for max addiction to extract max revenue where I've
basically lost trust in trying out any new games that aren't personally
recommended.

I'm looking forward to Apple Arcade as we'll finally have a curated collection
of trusted Games we can access with a single subscription so game developers
are compensated and they can just focus on creating good content/game play
instead of tweaking their games with Dark UX patterns to maximize IAP's.

------
Paul-ish
Perhaps games with in-app purchases should be required to be rated 18+ (thus
inaccessible to children's accounts). The developer can make a two versions if
they think the game could do with a lower rating.

------
zajio1am
Seems to me that main problem here is that consumers have insufficient control
about their payment card transactions. Why card transactions can be initiated
by merchant without explicit authorization of each transaction by the
customer?

If merchant-initiated transactions are desirable (e.g. for periodic payments),
why there is no explicit confirmation for number and size of allowed
transactions per time period for given merchant, like it is standard for
regular direct debit bank transactions?

------
FerretFred
In the UK there's tremendous lip-service by the gambling industry about
keeping vulnerable people safe from becoming addicted to gambling apps.

However, they spend millions constantly promoting any number of gambling apps
disguised as games to children. Not just on the Internet, but on daytime TV,
where you get a commercial break every 5-10 minutes. I have no idea how they
get away with it - the "Regulator" must be asleep.

------
awillen
There is, without doubt, a lot of garbage out there in these games for
purchase. There are also a lot of issues with the way they get people to spend
money.

That said, if your kid steals your credit card and spends a bunch of money on
it, the issue isn't the game, it's that your kid is stealing from you. If
he/she stole your credit card and bought clothes at the mall, you wouldn't
blame the clothing store...

------
rehasu
I don't understand why people don't learn the rules of the game called
"business" at least a little bit. If you have the right to cancel something
within 14 days there are rules to how to do this. Don't expect cooperation
from the other side of the table. Just follow the rules.

I'm quite sure the rules say something like this, but I'm not a lawyer and
have not looked it up again:

1\. Find out the business address of that company, preferably one in your
country if there are multiple options.

2\. Write a letter in Word where you say you want to revert the orders <list
of date, object, price>.

3\. Print, sign, then photograph that letter with your phone (which adds a
date to the photo).

4\. Go to your town's post office and tell them you want to send this letter
in a way that the receiver needs to sign for that and you want to get back
that signature.

5\. Wait for the signature.

6\. If nothing happens besides the signature, write them an email adding all
the details and the photos of the signature and the letter.

7\. If still nothing happens on your bank account, and the sum is over 500€ or
similar go with all the documents to a court and request they help you get the
money back. Not sure if other countries but in my country for 45€ they will
send a specially colored letter to the company claiming the payment and
threatening a lawsuit.

8\. Check the times here, but when they are up and nothing happened go with
all these things to a lawyer and he will probably sue for you. In most
countries losing such a lawsuit is path that might end up bringing the CEO
into jail (not directly, but it certainly is on the table as possibility at
this point), so the chances are super high that at this point they will send
the money or declare bankruptcy. In case of bankruptcy your lawyer knows how
to continue.

There's no need for reminders, warnings, etc. All that might end up you being
behind your deadlines. Print a paper letter, sign it, and send it in a way
that can prove reception.

A professional company with good intent will also not feel threatened by you
doing the right thing according to law. So don't be afraid to be perceived as
unfriendly. The only people who will claim unfriendliness here either have no
idea what they are doing or are using your shame against you in the hopes that
you do mistakes.

------
iamleppert
We need all the help we can get here in SF with our rent! Every dollar we can
get from the app helps! I just deployed a feature today that automatically
charges the user's credit card when their virtual currency balance runs low
and I do not feel the least bit guilty in doing it, either.

When the choice is either be out of business or homeless, what would you do?

------
Havoc
Kids shouldn't be armed with cards.

Prepaid cards maaaybbbee.

------
frostyj
I miss the old good time when you only need to purchase the game once and get
everything. No micro transaction. No DLCs.

------
RenRav
Can't games by default send an sms/email to their parents asking for
confirmation?

This could just be something you enable/disable in game with a PIN. I don't
know, anything would be nice. With no protection, you get the idea this is
exactly what publishers want to happen.

------
enterx
As a previous employee of one of the biggest free to play game companies i
felt pretty bad.

What parents aren't aware of is the fact that game companies except the
developers employ professional PhD psychologists to take advantage of people -
mostly kids.

------
crankylinuxuser
I find more fun in the older games. Unlike the IAP crap and all the ways of
gamification, older games could be modded and had humongous modding
communities.

Other than Minecraft, not so much these days. So I stick with older. Less to
"gamify my wallet"

------
PeterStuer
Her is a useful overview on platform support to limit access to in game
purchases [https://pegi.info/page/game-purchases](https://pegi.info/page/game-
purchases)

------
makecheck
One very simple set of rules could be: 1. your app may not accept in-app
purchases more than once per month, and 2. the in-app purchase cost must not
exceed 10% of the original purchase price. And then 3., there should be a
lifetime maximum on purchases, i.e. you can finally “pay enough”.

Instead of these or really _any_ other sane constraints, we’ve somehow made it
_worse_ by now preferring _subscriptions_!!! And even more offensive, these
recurring charges are allowed to be very high. And as if that weren’t
rewarding enough for scammers, it can be far more frequent than one would
normally expect (e.g. weekly instead of monthly). Like, _REALLY_!?!?

~~~
em-bee
point 2 won't work. the whole reason for in-game purchases is that you can
spend more than the initial cost of the game which is often free initially.
(what's 10% of free?)

i'd go with a monthly limit. one that doesn't break the bank, but one that
also isn't to low to make it not worth it for the game developer.

how about $10 per day and $50 per month?

then you can spend your weekends playing away and buying to your hearts
content. and if you instead do that every day, well then, you are going to
have to ask yourself: _home come that at the end of the money, there is so
much month left over?_

another measure would be the cost of a pack of cigarettes. at what point does
smoking affect you financially? i think there may be studies for that. that
same number ought to apply to games.

now there is still the problem of multiple games. so maybe another cap for
overall spending. but that is trickier. how does that cap distinguish game
spending vs using an app to buy groceries online?

------
kirykl
iOS should let you put value limits on in-app purchases.

Even just a setting or prompt when first opening an app:

"Dont allow in app purchases for this app to exceed $XXX (per day, per week,
lifetime)"

------
rasz
>learning difficulties and the approximate cognitive ability of a seven-year-
old child.

so obviously I gave him full control over "his entire savings"

~~~
sdwa
Parents can't be expected to get everything right all of the time. It's not
unreasonable to ask that technology companies don't exploit vulnerable people,
and in particular, children. Blaming the parents in this case is something I
just don't understand. The companies could just like, not exploit children for
profit. I've managed to go my whole life without exploiting children, it's
actually very very not difficult and I have no sympathy for these companies.

------
g00s3_caLL_x2
"Tighter regulation" how about 'tighter parenting'!?

Problem solved.

------
glenvdb
As someone who grew up on games during the GameBoy and N64 era, I have fond
memories of gaming and want my son to grow up with gaming in his life.

But in my "old man yells at cloud" state of mind, I don't want him to grow up
on gaming of today.

He's not yet old enough to play video games, but when he is I'm inspired to
implement something similar to what's outlined here:
[https://medium.com/message/playing-with-my-
son-e5226ff0a7c3](https://medium.com/message/playing-with-my-son-e5226ff0a7c3)

TL:DR Start his gaming journey at the beginning of the gaming industry (i.e.
Pong, Pac-Man) in the hope that exposure to what gaming used to be like will
"inoculate" him against what gaming is like today.

~~~
Latty
What you are talking about is a subset of games today - there are still _tons_
of great games out there with ethical monetization (more than there ever have
been, in fact).

Yeah, you have to skip some of the big names and a lot of the mobile space,
but that still leaves a lot of great stuff out there. While letting them
experience a ton of classics certainly isn't a bad idea, it also isn't the
only way to avoid predatory monetization.

------
sbhn
I’m addicted to the news, and especially if it makes me feel like i’m under
attack by forces i have no control over. Thanyou BBC, you’re my opium.

------
tootahe45
3160 is likely nothing compared to what he's being deprived of. I have massive
regrets of the time wasted gaming through my teens.

~~~
pjc50
What else would you have done with it?

What else would you _realistically_ have done with it? Everyone likes to
imagine that the would have spent it on improving practices like learning a
second language and a musical instrument, but would you really have done those
things or found another distraction?

------
vectorEQ
games. the dial-up scams of the twenty first century.

------
duckqlz
TL;DR Don't give your children access to your credit / bank cards.
Seriously...

------
goldcd
So:

1) You allowed your son with the cognitive ability of a 7 year old, access to
£3 grand.. I'm going out on a limb here, but I don't think that was wise. I'm
unable to even imagine "the correct" way you were wanting your son to use that
money. Shorting Symantec?

2) Your 16 year old _stole_ £2k of your money (and then your daughter bailed
you out?). Looking for a bright side, it wasn't opiates... and your student
daughter already appears to have overcome genetics/environment to get her shit
together.

3) "We are technically savvy" (I already know you're not.. but pray continue)
- Oh your 12 year old spent the money you gave him access to from his own bank
account.. Well I think lessons have been learnt on all sides here - and if you
don't think it's his fault, chuck him another £700 and see what happens. I
have some lovely magical-beans I'll cut you in on, for his email address.

4) "My 11-year-old daughter has spent over £100 of my money in a day
downloading apps that are the same." Well that's a curious statement. Most
stores would say "you already own this".. she was creating new accounts for
the thrill of a fresh download? I can't help but feel despite your
aforementioned tech-savvy swagger - you have no f'in idea what happened even
as you spoke to the reporter. Still I'm completely reassured that you've now
given her a PS3 where "No fraud, no online grooming and no bullying"... Three
horrible things, but does most definitely have an online store, which is the
single problematic thing you mentioned.

Oh I'm losing the will to live now.. and feeling increasingly misanthropic, so
I'll stop.

~~~
sdwa
Let me help you with your misanthropy: try targeting it at companies which
exist solely to exploit children rather than the parents of said children.

------
tathougies
The parents should think of the 3000 pounds as the cost of a course in child
care.

------
Andrew_nenakhov
After reading the title I thought it would be about Europa Universalis 4 and
all their outrageously priced DLCs.

------
microcolonel
I know this comment will soon turn gray, but I'll say it again as I have
before: Don't hand your credit card to a child, or to _anyone else_. This is
your first, and most effective, line of defense.

