
Ask HN: What visas are available for working in Europe without a degree? - brailsafe
I&#x27;m a 26 year old software developer with no degree from Canada. Navigating the waters of under 30 work permit visas for all European countries is turning out to be quite complex and I feel like I&#x27;m missing information.<p>My goal is to find work and live in a European country before age 30, ideally with a possible path to stay. If you have information on non-euro countries, I&#x27;d be very curious about that as well.<p>Part of the confusing bit is that some countries have working holiday visas with no highly skilled restrictions, Germany has the blue card and specific restrictions, all have separate skilled worker (with qualification) permits, and the list goes on. I feel like the job market is good, but I have no idea where I stand.
======
bberkgaut
In Sweden there are plenty of jobs and if you have several years of working
experience no one is asking for your degree. Jobs with relocation option could
be found, among others, on Stackoverflow or on local labor agency website
(Arbetsförmedlingen [1], in Swedish;)

After four years in Sweden you would be granted a permanent residence, and one
year later you could apply for Swedish passport.

The requirement of 'degree in computer science' is just a part of standard job
description, at least I was never asked about my (missing) degree.

One interesting option to consider are 'consultant agencies'. They hire you on
a permanent basis (often offering relocation) and then offer you to companies.
This way you may reach companies not offering relocation themselves (e.g.
startups). A small consultancy I am working for now, Go See Talents [2], is
offering relocation from outside EU (along with mentoring for less experienced
developers, which is probably not the case for you)

[1] [https://www.arbetsformedlingen.se](https://www.arbetsformedlingen.se)

[2] [http://goseetalents.com](http://goseetalents.com)

~~~
brailsafe
This is sort of the problem that is at the heart of my question. Job markets
seem to be pretty good for software people right now, but this is in conflict
with residency requirements. If I could find a job in Sweden, I'd have to be
able to legally work and live there. Just as well, even if a company wants to
hire me, they have to be able to go through a legal process to do so.

~~~
piva00
I'm working in Sweden, coming from Brazil and I didn't finish my degree, I can
say that finding a company here which wants to sponsor a visa for skilled
workers without a degree is not hard.

~~~
brailsafe
Mind describing how you managed that for my sake and that of my Brazilian
friend looking at returning to Canada?

~~~
piva00
Nothing special, got recruited by a Swedish company that does visa
sponsorship, never got asked about the lack of a degree and the company
applied for my visa as a high-skilled worker, they asked for the documents
they needed (nothing major, my CV, a form detailing my previous occupations
and contact details from previous employers were basically it) and I got the
visa approved a month later.

If a company is willing to sponsor your visa then it's really not hard over
here.

~~~
brailsafe
That's certainly interesting, thanks for expanding on your experience. How
many years of experience did you go in with? That's the other standard route
that doesn't involve a degree. For example, if I was interested in working in
the U.S, I'd either need a degree or 12 evident years of experience.

------
guessmyname
The irony… I am a senior software engineer trying to get a Canadian visa :D

Last year I tried to immigrate to some European countries _(Germany, Norway,
Czech Republic, Spain)_ without success. While I could ace the interviews with
multiple startups and medium/big companies, none of them wanted to sponsor the
immigration considering the lack of formal education. One of my coworkers
suggested to get a business visa either in Czech Republic or Germany because
these two countries offer a straight-forward paperwork process that only
requires some money, generic documents and a translator. He incorporated
himself, got health insurance, a long term rent, did some generic paperwork
and in a couple of months he got the letter of acceptance from the immigration
office.

I was going to do the same but in Germany, considering that 5 different
startups were interested to hire me, I was honest with them and explained my
situation and they were okay, but I would need to get the visa by myself. The
German government has a visa called _" Residence Permit for the Purpose of
Freelance or Self-Employment"_ [1] the page explains very well what you need
to get the permit, you can live in the country for two years _(one year +
renovate for 6 months two times)_ , then you can apply for the blue card which
grants you the same rights of a regular citizen.

[1]
[https://service.berlin.de/dienstleistung/305249/en/](https://service.berlin.de/dienstleistung/305249/en/)

~~~
notjosh
Careful, the blue card won't let you move around Europe as a citizen. They're
issued by individual countries, so you'll have residency rights in that
country, but standard "90 in 180" freedom of movement within Schengen beyond
that:

> If you hold a residence permit or a long-stay visa issued by a Schengen area
> country, you will have the same freedom of travel as a Schengen short-stay
> visa holder.

[https://web.archive.org/web/20180108183307/http://ec.europa....](https://web.archive.org/web/20180108183307/http://ec.europa.eu/immigration/do-
i-need-a-visa/do-i-need-a-short-stay-visa_en) (the main website is down, but
here's a wayback snapshot)

~~~
raul_duke
Well that is true in theory. But it's also the case that there are no border
checks within the Schengen area, so you should be able to move around as much
as you like in practice.

~~~
derriz
That’s potentially dangerous advice. I’ve seen police go through a train
asking people for papers passing between Schengen countries. Just because the
chances of being caught are small doesn’t mean it’s a good idea to do
something illegal wrt to immigration.

~~~
SyneRyder
Yep, Sweden & Denmark were doing passport checks on the train between Malmö
and Copenhagen for a while:

[http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-35222015](http://www.bbc.com/news/world-
europe-35222015)

------
thijsb
We’ve had no problem hiring people without degrees in the Netherlands (from
outside EU/EER). But you need a high-skilled job, with requirements to your
salary (which with CS you’ll most likely meet), and you need to sign a
contract before you can get the visa. Most Companies will take care of the
visa for you. I don’t know the exact name of the visa, I can look it up for
you if you like.

~~~
brailsafe
Thanks, I'd really appreciate that. The name is surprisingly important because
some countries have very similar sounding visas with very different
requirements. Netherlands is definitely one of the countries I'd be interested
in but haven't yet researched.

~~~
deivid
I recently moved to nl, with no degree. You just need to earn more than 36k to
be accepted as a highly skilled migrant, and on top of that you get a big tax
rebate, the "30% ruling"

~~~
brailsafe
Euros I presume?

------
deniedeee
I have 17 years of experience in my area (DevOps) and was recently denied a
work visa by Germany. Reason: no degree. I had an already signed contract with
a major company to earn 58k EUR/year.

The company appealed to the ZAV multiple times and got rejected.

And software developer is in the shortage list. I don't advise trying it
without a degree even though I got assurances from every recruiter I talked to
that a degree was absolutely not necessary. I should have trusted my gut.

EDIT: I showed the embassy formal proof of my work experience, countless IT
courses, many certifications (LPI, Kubernetes, Oracle, etc), participation in
open source projects. They shrugged it all off and said "no degree, only ZAV
can approve you". ZAV wasn't happy about it either. So I'm not how serious
these countries are when they talk about a shortage of skilled workers. It
seems they can't help themselves with the bureaucracy.

~~~
jashmatthews
Was that for a BlueCard? I know a ton of people working here under the
BlueCard scheme but I don't personally know anyone who's been approved without
a university degree.

I'd never bothered to officially graduate, but I did it before immigrating
here in case I have to move to a BlueCard post Brexit.

~~~
deniedeee
No, it was for a regular work visa. The person handling my case explicitly
asked if I was applying for a BlueCard and I said no (because it does require
a degree).

At this point I'm blaming it on the situation being too different from what
the immigration workers are used to, but it gave me a lot of headaches (and
wasted time/money for me and the company).

~~~
Mandatum
Have been approved for a BlueCard (but ultimately didn't take it) without a
degree. Quite a few hoops, but it's possible.

~~~
deniedeee
I'm from Argentina. Are you a non-EU citizen? Some country with better
relationships?

~~~
Mandatum
New Zealand which has a pretty good relationship with most of the EU since
we're part of the Commonwealth. We're synonymous with Australians who seem to
be everywhere in the EU, and English is our primary (and often only) language
usually.

------
padthai
You can get into the EU through Spain but you need some savings (~30.000€).
More info here:

[https://qotoqot.com/blog/best-countries/](https://qotoqot.com/blog/best-
countries/)

------
justboxing
Hi!

I run [http://www.visaok.in/](http://www.visaok.in/) a job board listing
curated visa sponsored tech jobs in over 20 countries around the world. A
while back, I painstakingly created Visa Guides for the top 20 most popular
countries around the world (most of them are in Europe and Asia). These Visa
Guides provide details on the Visa Requirements in various categories of
'Skilled Tech Workers'. All Visa Guides are listed here =>
[http://www.visaok.in/work-permit/blog/](http://www.visaok.in/work-
permit/blog/)

I found that in almost all the countries that have some sort of a 'Startup
Visa', there is no requirement for having a degree.

I've listed the Guides for European employers below. It shouldn't take you too
long to identify a country of choice and review the short, but detailed Visa
Guide to see if you fit in without a college degree. You can then search the
main job site after selecting the Visa from the dropdown and entering your
skill / job title.

My email is in bio. Feel free to write back for more info or if you have any
feedback on the job board.

Germany Visa Guide [http://www.visaok.in/visa-guide-
germany/](http://www.visaok.in/visa-guide-germany/)

Netherlands Visa Guide [http://www.visaok.in/visa-guide-
netherlands/](http://www.visaok.in/visa-guide-netherlands/)

UK Visa Guide [http://www.visaok.in/visa-guide-united-
kingdom/](http://www.visaok.in/visa-guide-united-kingdom/)

Czech Republic Visa Guide [http://www.visaok.in/czech-republic-visa-
guide/](http://www.visaok.in/czech-republic-visa-guide/)

Hungary Visa Guide [http://www.visaok.in/hungary-visa-
guide/](http://www.visaok.in/hungary-visa-guide/)

Ireland Visa Guide [http://www.visaok.in/ireland-visa-
guide/](http://www.visaok.in/ireland-visa-guide/)

Spain Visa Guide [http://www.visaok.in/visa-guide-
spain/](http://www.visaok.in/visa-guide-spain/)

Finland Visa Guide [http://www.visaok.in/finland-visa-
guide/](http://www.visaok.in/finland-visa-guide/)

Austria Visa Guide [http://www.visaok.in/austria-visa-
guide/](http://www.visaok.in/austria-visa-guide/)

Denmark Visa Guide [http://www.visaok.in/denmark-visa-
guide/](http://www.visaok.in/denmark-visa-guide/)

Poland Visa Guide [http://www.visaok.in/poland-visa-
guide/](http://www.visaok.in/poland-visa-guide/)

Sweden Visa Guide [http://www.visaok.in/visa-guide-
sweden/](http://www.visaok.in/visa-guide-sweden/)

Estonia Visa Guide [http://www.visaok.in/visa-guide-
estonia/](http://www.visaok.in/visa-guide-estonia/)

~~~
horsecaptin
This is a great resource. I hope you see even more traction - I'm going to
share this with my friends! Thank yoU!

~~~
justboxing
Thank you! I appreciate it.

------
richardkmichael
Certainly, for Canadians, going to France is very straightforward option.

You only need insurance and proof of finance means to support yourself and/or
leave (return home); you can stay 12 months and extend to 24, possible 36 if
you're studying too.

[https://ca.ambafrance.org/ExperienceFrance](https://ca.ambafrance.org/ExperienceFrance)

~~~
brailsafe
Brilliant. Thanks.

------
leedle
There are many countries that have youth mobility programs for Canadians --
check out [https://www.canada.ca/en/immigration-refugees-
citizenship/se...](https://www.canada.ca/en/immigration-refugees-
citizenship/services/canadians/international-experience-canada.html)

~~~
brailsafe
Great resource. Thanks.

------
e1g
UK: Youth Mobility Scheme for people under 30. This visa is for 2 years, and
you can live / work in the UK. Quite easy to get, and does not require a
degree / job offer.

Germany: Berlin Freelancer/Artist Visa. Do anything you want for 2 year, and
does not need a regular job offer (involves a bit of paperwork).

~~~
IAmEveryone
I know more Canadian/Australians/South Africans in the Berlin Tech Scene than
Germans, and they seem to mostly share your motivations and seem rather happy
with their choice.

The Freelancer visa rather easily lets you stay for two years. In that time,
you can find a company to hire you and sponsor a more permanent visa. IIRC,
you can apply for permanent residency after five years in the country.

Berlin was dirt cheap for a long time, and still is compared to cities with
similar size in similar countries. It's full of people trying all sorts of
alternative approaches to life. As long as it's not criminal[0], you can do
almost anything and probably find five to five thousand others than want to do
it with you, two journalists than want to make a documentary about it, and one
New York Times article declaring it the new trend.

[0]: or probably even if it is

~~~
damla
Does freelancer visa cover partner/children? If I get the freelancer visa can
my partner work in Germany, or my children enroll to public schools?

------
AriaMinaei
"European countries" is a pretty wide net. Some you'd enjoy living in, some
you may not, and preferences vary.

I moved to Finland because I had paid a visit before and had "fell in love
with it," so to say. And even though it's an advanced country with an
extremely high standard of living, getting in and settling was surprisingly
easy.

They did ask me for a degree at the embassy, but I just gave them a good
resume and recommendation letters (whom they never contacted). I told them I'm
self-taught and don't need a degree. Their official website speaks vaguely on
the subject of degrees, but their law does not explicitly require it. If
you're in the IT sector, you mainly need a high salary and an offer from
preferrably a stable company. That's enough to qualify you for a visa called
"Residence permit for a person employed as a special expert."

This visa grants you a lot of freedom. After moving to Finland For example,
you have 4 months to choose to stay in your new job. If you decide to leave
the job, this visa allows you to stay in the country to find another job.
Doing that with a non-specialist visa may cause you trouble when you decide to
extend your stay the next year.

The visa also easily renews after one year of working, giving you four
additional years, after which you can apply for permanent residence or
citizenship.

Since you're a Canadian citizen, the process should be even easier for you.
Basically a company gives you an offer and relocates you to a hotel/airbnb in
Finland right away, so you can start working before the authorities decide on
your visa. Once you're in Finland, you can visit the immigration office and
apply for residency there.

Once you have your permit, you can go ahead and get a permanent place to live,
which most companies help you with. They usually lend you the rent deposit,
pay for a hotel before you find a place, and help you with your rental
contract, etc.

There is very little paperwork in the whole process. Setting up a bank account
is easy. Taxes are done online and are mostly automatic. Health insurance is
granted from day one. Additional insurance is cheap and a single phone call
away.

The whole process was so smooth that most of the time I didn't even realise
there was a process there. It was only after I had moved to Germany (a country
that I love to live in and hate to do paperwork in) that I realised just how
well oiled the Finnish system really is. And I hear they've made it even
better since I left :)

------
et-al
Not A Nomad (who sometimes posts here) has a nice in-depth guide on emigrating
to Germany:

[https://notanomadblog.com/how-to-emigrate-germany-startup-
jo...](https://notanomadblog.com/how-to-emigrate-germany-startup-job/)

I also have a friend-of-a-friend who moved from SF to Berlin to work for
Deliveroo, so you could try reaching out to that company directly.

------
aviaro
Sorry, I can't help you, but I am curious as to why do you want to move out of
Canada when many Europeans want to go the other way?

~~~
brailsafe
I love Canada and it's a great country, but I'm a wanderer and a curious
person if I were to simplify it. I discussed a few practical aspects as well
in response to a similar question above.

Edit: Are you considering moving to Canada? If not, can you speak to why you
think more Europeans are interested in doing so?

------
SyneRyder
If you're under 30, you should still be eligible for the Working Holiday Visa.
This was the website I used for initial research when I applied for working
holiday visas a few years ago to Germany & Canada:

[http://www.workingholidayinfo.com/canadians/](http://www.workingholidayinfo.com/canadians/)

It has info for other nationalities too (I'm Australian). I'm not sure if
Kirsty is keeping it updated, so you might want to double-check her info, but
it should be a good starting point.

If you're intending to stay, Germany's Blue Card might be the best path. If
you can learn the language and attain B1 level of fluency, you can gain
permanent residency in 21 months.

~~~
brailsafe
I'm seeing some conflicting replies here regarding the Blue Card. Does it not
require a degree?

~~~
SyneRyder
Ahh, I missed the "without degree" part of the question. It looks like it's
strongly recommended, certainly the Australian Germany Embassy page suggests
you need a degree:

[http://www.australien.diplo.de/Vertretung/australien/en/03/V...](http://www.australien.diplo.de/Vertretung/australien/en/03/Visa/D-Visa/Sonstige/BlueCard.html)

But it looks like there are also exemptions for "bottleneck" industries that
urgently require specialists, and Software Development and Programming are
currently listed. (Some of the commercial sites suggest 5 years of commercial
experience will also qualify.) You'll note that IT also gets a discount on the
minimum required salary to qualify.

Try the Make It In Germany website, which is an official government site and
links out to some of the exemption documents:

[http://www.make-it-in-germany.com/en](http://www.make-it-in-germany.com/en)

Oh, and also note that Canadians (like Australians & Americans) get a favored
status. Note at the bottom of that first link that Canadians can apply for a
Blue Card _after_ arriving in Germany. So maybe you could try applying for the
Working Holiday visa (easier to get), and once you're over there look into
converting your visa to the Blue Card.

------
jorgemf
Each country in Europe has its own visa, and depending on the visa you might
need other visas for other countries if you want to travel around. So the
first question is where do you want to go? Do you know other languages than
english? (north countries speak English either as first or second language)
Oh, don't forget one country is leaving the European Union in the next years
(it might impact you).

First find a couple of places you want to live in and then search for their
visas, doing it the other way is going to be a nightmare as you already know.

~~~
brailsafe
Northern Countries would be first on my list and the UK would be interesting
to live in for a period of time regarding that whole leaving the EU thing.
I've casually been learning German for a while and can get by. Skill building
is super important to me and languages are a key component of that.

~~~
pjc50
I'm not sure this is going to be the good kind of "interesting". Assuming you
get the Tier 5 visa you'll be OK while it's valid, but the anti-immigrant
rhetoric and proceduralism is pretty high so if anything goes wrong you'll hit
the unsympathetic part of the immigration system.

Plus the country hasn't decided if it wants to collapse into chaos in March
2019.

(A consideration for you whereever you go: what happens if you meet someone
and want to have a relationship with them that outlasts your visa?)

~~~
brailsafe
Are you referring to the UK? I could have re-phrased my comment. What I meant
to say is that while I think it would hypothetically be interesting to live
and work in the UK for a short period of time, perhaps if my options are very
limited, given the circumstances I'd not go all in on that as a priority. I
spent a very short time in England and Scotland in 2016, had a great time, and
had some interesting political discussions ;)

------
iamspoilt
Curious and also from Canada. Are you considering moving to Europe to find
better work opportunities? Why is that so when Canada offers a pretty decent
career path in tech?

~~~
brailsafe
This isn't a tech consideration. Tech can be made anywhere in the world. In
Canada however, there are only a few places that overlap in terms of places I
want to be and that have plenty of opportunities. This is pretty limited to
Vancouver and maybe Montreal. So it's more of consideration towards
exploration. Cultural and otherwise. Vancouver is great, but it's outrageously
expensive and lacks any cultural flavor. Montreal has cultural flavor but
lacks mountains and so on.

There are other considerations as well, such as the vastness of Canada vs the
closer proximity of mainland Europe to other countries. I'm from Winnipeg, and
it's a 6 hour drive to the next minor city.

Edit: I don't think these interests are rare, but I get the feeling that
people more or less want to find a paying job that let's them buy a single
family home and move out to the suburbs. I don't subscribe to this idea, and
want to explore other avenues of living.

Furthermore, work culture here hasn't been desirable so far in my career. I
don't necessarily expect it to be different elsewhere, but why not broaden my
horizons in that respect too?

------
brailsafe
It's also worh noting that I do have a 1 year technical diploma, but no formal
undergraduate degree. Though I am working on it slowly because learning is
interesting and in case other ways don't pan out.

------
drakonka
I went the one year working holiday visa route from Australia to Sweden >5
years ago and ended up getting a normal employment-based residence permit
after getting a full time job. So that's one option.

------
thiagooffm
In Germany you can definitely get a job without a degree.

The company will need to dig much further into the bureaucracy path in order
to do so, so you need to be a great candidate.

~~~
deniedeee
That's not my experience at all. The company that hired me went to great
lengths to get the approval and got rejected every time.

If you don't have a degree, it's more like a lottery that depends on whoever
gets to see your case at the embassy/labor department.

------
6t6t6t6
Spouse visa? ;)

~~~
brailsafe
Heh, I've considered it. Wouldn't be impossible, but not feasible right now.

------
mgnr
For canadian citizens <30 y/o:

[https://www.gov.uk/tier-5-youth-mobility](https://www.gov.uk/tier-5-youth-
mobility)

~~~
nikon
Met my fair share in London on this visa. Sadly there is rarely a way of
staying after your 2 years unless your employer really commits to sponsoring
you, which they never do.

------
kylehotchkiss
Estonia E-Residency?

[https://e-resident.gov.ee/become-an-e-
resident/](https://e-resident.gov.ee/become-an-e-resident/)

~~~
objclxt
E-residency gives you no rights to enter or live in Estonia.

~~~
ggm
It does give you the ability to begin trading within the EEU and thus have
established trade/consulting/income links. Which means when applying for a
trade/consulting/income related visa you can demonstrate a tax compliant
income stream. And you can get an estonian bank account, and its an ID card.
And cool.

