

Ask HN: I've got a new job but the boss is a bully / abusive - grover_hartmann

Hi,<p>I&#x27;ve got a new job as a web developer but the boss is a bully &#x2F; abusive.<p>The boss keeps referring to other employees as &quot;black&quot; and makes racist comments towards some of them.<p>I was listening to music with my headphones and he&#x27;s like &quot;WHO&#x27;S LISTENING TO THAT?&quot; and then asked me to lower the volume because it &quot;distracts&quot; others. Even though the office is loud as they talk and laugh all the time.<p>It doesn&#x27;t also help that I&#x27;m an immigrant.<p>He keeps making stupid personal and passive-aggressive comments and just generally belittling team members, it&#x27;s really annoying and it&#x27;s starting to get on me.<p>I&#x27;ve watched him trying to flirt with some female coworkers even, it&#x27;s disgusting and he&#x27;s married.<p>I can&#x27;t believe this is the second day of work at this company and I&#x27;m already feeling like this.<p>Here&#x27;s my previous post that is related to the same company, just to provide some context:<p>https:&#x2F;&#x2F;news.ycombinator.com&#x2F;item?id=9676980<p>Everyone here just laughs at his &quot;jokes&quot; and follows his orders.<p>He found I didn&#x27;t eat today because I didn&#x27;t had money, and he asked if I wanted a banana, so he said to other coworker &quot;Give one banana to this immigrant&quot;.<p>How do you deal with this bs?
======
espresso_lover
I was just in this exact same position last year, and unfortunately have had
this experience earlier before that as well. First, the situation may stay the
same or worsen, but it won't get better, so you should begin looking for a new
job. Second, don't talk to HR or make any formal complaints. Talking to HR
makes it worst - they are there to keep the company free of trouble and
liability, not to make your workplace better. Chances are if you talk to HR,
they will tell your boss and everyone will start picking on you even more in
an attempt to get you to quit. Talk to a lawyer to determine what type of
documentation and evidence you need to take legal action, and get it. In the
meantime smile and act like everything is fine at work. The most difficult
part of this will be finding a competent lawyer who can help you stick up for
your rights. It's a bad situation, but good luck.

~~~
grover_hartmann
The problem with looking for new work is that there's not much work related to
IT in my area, and I think they know this and therefore abuse us.

Moving to a larger city is more expensive and harder, therefore I'll have to
put up with this for a longer time.

Thanks.

------
kelukelugames
Engineers and employees in general really need to understand their rights
better. I will write up something comprehensive later.

Some bullet points in the main time:

1\. Being a bully and verbally abusive is not illegal.

2\. Racist jokes are not illegal unless they are impacting your work. This is
the gray area of the law. Visit your local EEOC office.

Poke around here on your own:
[http://www.eeoc.gov/laws/types/harassment.cfm](http://www.eeoc.gov/laws/types/harassment.cfm)

3\. Flirting is not harassment.

4\. Working in a shitty environment sucks. Just tough it out till you get a
new job.

~~~
grover_hartmann
1\. It doesn't matter if it's illegal or not, nobody should ever have to put
up with any of that crap.

2\. Same as with bullying, nobody should ever tolerate this bullshit.

3\. Flirting is harassment if the other party is not interested in flirting.
At that point I don't think it's flirting anymore, but harassment.

4\. It does suck indeed, and I'll seek for a new job.

~~~
kelukelugames
No one thinks you should have to put up with any of this crap.

Some people are telling you to seek legal action.

The point I am making is there is a huge gap between what is unacceptable and
what is illegal.

~~~
grover_hartmann
I see, thanks.

------
loumf
IANAL -- If you talk to a lawyer, which I think you should -- stick to the
racism and sexism. Start documenting exact quotes. The lawyer will probably
advise you to talk to HR, and their job is a lot easier if you have a journal
(date/time/quote and context/list of those present).

Also, I think it's a good idea to not post on HN about this -- if it comes to
a lawsuit, you could be asked about it, and nothing you say here or on forums
can help you.

Also, stuff like this:

> I was listening to music with my headphones and he's like "WHO'S LISTENING
> TO THAT?" and then asked me to lower the volume because it "distracts"
> others.

is pretty reasonable -- perhaps not the exact style, but if the office culture
is quiet (which it should be for programming) and they can hear music leak
from your headphones, it is a distraction.

~~~
grover_hartmann
Yes, it's reasonable, but the office is not generally quiet.

They keep talking and laugh all the time.

They just pick on me because I'm an immigrant and a introvert.

------
MalcolmDiggs
Call him on his bullshit! Don't be one of the people who lets him skate by
because he's the boss. At the end of the day he's just a human being; flaws
and all.

If I were you I'd take him out for a beer and tell him everything you wrote
here. You'll probably be the first person who was ever honest with him about
this.

If he has a modicum of character, he'll respect you for it and honor your
concerns. If he doesn't care about the issues you bring up then that's beyond
your control. In that case you'll have done what you could and I think you can
move on to something else with a clear conscience.

~~~
grover_hartmann
I called him out and conforonted him yesterday, I was leaving the office and
the conversation was something along the lines of:

Me: "I'm leaving."

Boss: "Okay."

Me: "Can I ask you for a favor?"

Boss: "Yes?"

Me: "Please call me by my name. I do respect the team so I'd like to get the
same respect back."

Boss: "Okay, yes"

Me: "Bye"

Boss: "Bye"

I came to the office today and he gave me an apology. He also mentioned that
when and if I have a problem again, I can speak my mind to him whenever I want
to but in private rather than in front of others.

He also mentioned that he was "joking" and that he doesn't call most people by
their name. He also mentioned that we are "different" and I'm not sure what he
meant by that, but I don't care.

Anyway, he said he won't disrespect again and we shaked hands and moved on,
but it's good that he apologized. I hope the apology was sincere though.

------
monknomo
This is a technical fix, but then this is a technical forum - try getting big
over the ear headphones that really block out what other people are saying.
Then you'll be damaging your hearing if they can hear your music.

To fix the underlying problem, you should seek new employment.

~~~
grover_hartmann
The headphones are not the problem here, but thanks for pointing out the
health issue. I'll try listening to music in a moderate volume.

I'll seek for new employment.

------
bjourne
Your boss is a fucking douchebag. I wouldn't try to fix the situation, anyone
who says "Give one banana to this immigrant" can't be reasoned with. Try to
have people to talk to so you dont have to keep it inside of you. People
easily acquire psychological health issues when they are in situations like
yours.

~~~
grover_hartmann
Indeed, and I will talk about this to coworkers that have been nicer with me,
those same coworkers have also been mistreated by the boss.

I'll say something about the boss during lunch break and I'll see how they
respond, I'm not sure if some of the coworkers will gossip anything I said
about the boss to the boss though.

How do you deal with that?

------
JSeymourATL
There's an Old Work Rule: People don't leave jobs, they leave bosses.

It can be extremely difficult during the interview process to determine the
true, unvarnished nature of personalities. Next time, be sure to meet with
your potential team members and counterparts. Ask probing questions about the
bosses management style and company culture.

So move on; quickly now. Cut your loses today if all possible. Chalk up the
experience to nothing ventured, nothing gained.

------
itburnswheniit
There is no "right" to not being offended.

Capacity/capability is only the first hurdle at a new job. If others aren't
also upset, perhaps the problem is you're just not a good fit?

The banana comment makes me think your boss is a bit of an ass, but you must
realize not all jokes translate across culture/language. There is so much to
delivery of any joke - failed or otherwise. When I read that line, the voice
in my head sounded like Jerry Seinfeld. Maybe I've watched too much
Seinfeld...maybe he was trying to be funny, but maybe he's just an ass who
lacks the emotional intelligence to see he's upsetting the new guy.

Best of luck to you...though it's probably better to make your own luck and
keep searching for a new gig.

------
Someone1234
Obviously I think that is unacceptable.

But being realistic if you aren't able to afford to eat, then you need to find
another job before you leave this one. So I'd concentrate on that, finding
something else. Unfortunately you'll have to put up with this for a little
while, so you could start documenting what goes on if you wish to make some
legal complaint (although that might be expensive, unless you can find a
lawyer who will work on a % of the potential winnings).

Nobody should have to put up with racism and abuse in the workplace, and I
have no strategies for dealing with that except to get out ASAP. The only
thing I would say is, try and ignore the things he doesn't which don't
directly impact you (e.g. flirting with female employees, it really has zero
impact on you, your work, or anything).

~~~
grover_hartmann
I don't think I'll lawyer up over this, unless something really bad starts to
happen.

I know, and I think he was racist with me and others. Even some of the
employees were racist towards a coworker. It really is very nasty.

The problem with finding new work is that there aren't many IT jobs over here,
so I have to put this for longer until I can actually find a better job.

------
seekingcharlie
Honestly, if this was me, I would ask your boss to have a 5 minute chat. Go
for a coffee or something.

Then just tell him exactly what you've been feeling. Describe things that he
has said & how they made you feel.

There is a chance that he has absolutely no idea the effect he is having on
you.

~~~
grover_hartmann
There's a chance he probably won't care at all, and I'm sure he knows he is
being an ass.

As I mentioned, I didn't eat at all yesterday and I asked the boss if I could
leave earlier to eat. He said I couldn't and that "our schedule is our
schedule" so I had to be there until 6pm.

This is abuse, clear and simple.

~~~
seekingcharlie
I definitely don't agree with anything he has said, nor is it acceptable in
any form. If he's referring to you openly as an "immigrant" or "monkey", I
also doubt that he's the type of person that would dramatically change his
behavior after you flag it.

However, I still think that you need to communicate to him that the way he is
behaving is deeply unprofessional as a colleague and completely unethical as
another human being.

The 6pm issue is a kinda moot & one could ask all kinds of questions such as
'why didn't you eat earlier?' but I honestly think it's irrelevant.

------
philip1209
[I am not a lawyer]

Are you in the USA? Consult with a lawyer immediately.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hostile_work_environment](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hostile_work_environment)

~~~
grover_hartmann
I'm not in the US.

------
S4M
You should start actively looking for another job. If you can't find one, can
you try to transfer in another team? What is your personal situation? Can
relocate if your area doesn't have jobs?

~~~
grover_hartmann
I can't relocate, it's not that simple. I tried to relocate, but companies in
other cities just don't want to give me a job, they probably think it's harder
to hire me as I have yet to move to the actual city where the job is
available.

So they always say "We'll get back to your whenever we make a decision, we
still need to interview other candidates." so at the end of the day, they're
just wasting my time and my limited resources.

I don't think I can transfer to other teams, as I'm new with this company, but
it's already hellish, only after 2 days of being hired. :(

------
grover_hartmann
Oh, they also mentioned I'm not allowed to eat pork (or derived) in the
company because they are Jewish.

I believe this is just one of the first "not allowed" from a long list.
Fucking hell.

------
saluki
Be positive . . . make the most of it . . . but keep looking for remote rails
opportunities . . . polish up your rails skills in the evening and start a
side project/rails app to keep your skills sharp/improve them.

At work, stay positive, make the best of it, keep your head down and money
coming in until you land a better remote gig.

Good luck sticking in there.

btw I don't think lawyers/HR is a good move unless something really serious
happens.

If you need money now, make the best of it and keep looking for a rails gig or
other local gig.

Good luck.

~~~
grover_hartmann
Thanks.

Rails gigs are good for getting some extra income, but my experience is that
they don't last, and there's no way I can live only with remote gigs.

I mean, I've been freelancing for years and living off remote work for 2
years.

But the financial stability with remote work is nowhere as good as when you
have a "real job".

What I'm trying to say is that when you are working remotely, you're not
really a employee, as the company can and will go away from one day to
another, and what options do you have then?

I'm talking about international remote work, now partial remote work with a
local company might be another story.

------
adamconroy
Sounds like you need to laugh at his jokes and follow his orders. Ignore
anything relating to others, its not your business and not something to stress
about. Think about the adage "keep your friends close and your enemies
closer". Flatter him, make him feel good about himself, then down the road
when you start biting back a bit it will hurt.

~~~
Peroni
This is the worst possible advice you could have given.

Attempting to ignore the behaviour is both stressful and damaging.

~~~
adamconroy
I said he should ignore his boss's interactions with others. Do you really
think it is healthy for op to be stressing over the fact his boss flirts and
is married? I repeat, he should mind his own business.

------
fsk
One of my coworkers listens to music on headphones all day, so loud I can hear
it. It gets old fast. He also frequently smells like marijuana, a very strong
smell. It is very annoying, I'm almost ready to walk out over it.

He is the boss' favorite, so I can't do anything.

~~~
jamesdelaneyie
Hello! I might be that guy! YMMV but try mentioning it low-key style to him.
They're most likely oblivious to it and chancing their arm / pushing their
luck with it. They'll probably be embarrassed more than anything if you bring
it up and after a small bit of awkwardness and red cheeks, it might possibly
improve a situation like that for you immensely!

~~~
fsk
It's already been discussed, which is why I'm at the "very annoyed" point
right now.

~~~
jamesdelaneyie
How very disheartening :(

------
Zelmor
Notify HR. If nothing happens, leave. You'll find another job, especially as a
developer. No reason to stay at a place where you feel uncomfortable.

I learned this the hard way.

~~~
grover_hartmann
HR never does anything. They're there to get the company out of liability as
someone else said it here.

This is why I support workers over capitalists.

I'll find another job. I'm very confident with my skills that I won't starve
or get out of jobs.

------
bttf
I think the best thing you can do is actively look for another job. That will
keep you going through the days.

~~~
grover_hartmann
I will. Thanks.

------
luso_brazilian
Here are some very pragmatic advices not based on what it should be (were the
world fair and just) but on what is most likely is:

1\. If your music can be heard outside your earphone it must be very loud. For
your own auditory health sake turn it down. Even if you are using it to
isolate from the office noise, once you lose your hearing you cannot get it
back so it is not worth it to sacrifice it for short term gain.

2\. Regarding all the misbehaviour towards your other coworkers, don't
interfere. A lot like in domestic abuse cases, sometimes the victims end up
taking the aggressor's side and you end up in a situation of both the
aggressor and the victims being against you. Just don't.

3\. The kind of abuse you are being subjected is not tolerable and the best
way to stop it (as others said) is to quit the job. It is very unlikely that
there is a course of action that will result in you keeping your job and your
abusive boss getting fired.

4\. People failed to understand the depth of your problem: if you can't afford
to eat properly you can't afford to pay for a lawyer and probably you don't
have the spare time to find one out that will take your case pro bono or on
contingency. If you could, the best course of action would still be to quit.

Now is the part of the advice that will really suck because it assumes a
flawed world where doing the right thing don't always pay out and doing the
wrong thing isn't always punished.

Being totally honest here: (as per your other post) you took a PHP job not
being in touch with the technology for the past 8 years. You took a Windows
shop job being a Linux person for the past 15 years. It is very hard to
understand how you got the job in the first place given the lack of
technological fit and they will probably treat you as a stop gap until they
can find someone more qualified.

If your situation is so dire that you were willing to fill the position anyway
and if you can't afford to quit a job that in the second day you already found
out that is not for you: you will have to muster the strength and carry on.

\- Block out all external stimulus not related to your task at hand

\- Don't talk to your coworkers except for task related subjects.

\- Don't listen to your coworkers conversations.

\- Don't observe your boss comments or behaviour.

\- Don't respond to abusive comments.

\- Hide your feelings as well as you can, fake a convincing laugh and keep at
your task.

\- Don't spend a single additional second of your own time the presence of
abusive people

\- Do your job as well as is necessary to receive your paycheque and count the
days until you can finally quit.

These are not idealist advice, it is very unlikely that you are going change
that workplace environment, save your coworkers or win a big lawsuit. But if
you can't absolutely quit that job (and, assuming conditions as bad as you
describe, I would even if the alternative was hunger and homelessness)
pretend, fake and carry on as well as you can in this situation.

And sorry for the long post.

~~~
grover_hartmann
Thanks for your advice, but with 15 years of Linux/Unix experience, I think
I'm very well qualified for most positions. Thank you.

The points you make and the advice you gave me is excellent though. Thanks.

I just haven't programmed with PHP for a long time, but I know how to get work
done regardless of the programming language.

Me using Linux for a very long time doesn't also mean that I can't use
Windows. It comes down to having a preference for the environment I'm more
used to, and that environment is GNU/Linux for me.

------
dawson
Please contact me, email in profile.

~~~
grover_hartmann
What for? I'm using an anonymous handle right now, and I'm not sure I'd like
to reveal my identity that easily.

------
andersthue
You cannot deal with it, ever.

Get out.

Quick!

~~~
grover_hartmann
It's not that simple when you have bills to pay and there aren't enough jobs
in your local area in the first place.

