
Animal protein-rich diets could be as harmful to health as smoking - jamesbritt
http://theguardian.com/science/2014/mar/04/animal-protein-diets-smoking-meat-eggs-dairy
======
FD3SA
I wonder what this means for those of us who are casual weightlifters. Our
protein intake is much higher than 0.7g per kg, and in fact most come in
around double that value.

The benefits of being at one's peak strength are innumerable, but a fourfold
increase in cancer risk is startling.

I assume a healthy balance would be to obtain a greater percentage of our
intake from vegetable sources. But most of us are wired by evolution to enjoy
the taste of animal protein much more than other sources.

Perhaps a foray into endurance sports is in order.

~~~
keyhole_downs
Two Words: Grilled Veggies.

Get a George Foreman grill. Eat mor seafood. Shrimp and veggies go great
together.

Also, veggies are just an excuse to eat garlic. Put garlic in your meat. Put
garlic in your ice cream. Take garlic pills. And eat blueberries and broccoli
if you're worried about cancer. Garlic is nature's formaldehyde.

~~~
tieTYT
Shrimp is high in protein and cholesterol.

~~~
insaneirish
And let's be clear, that the link between dietary cholesterol and blood serum
cholesterol is not established. The idea of low cholesterol foods is therefore
dubious, at best.

~~~
shalmanese
So one of those Egg Council creeps got to you too, huh?

------
nlh
Even if this article were 100% true (which I doubt), I wouldn't follow the
advice.

Switching from a low-protein to high-protein diet has had the most dramatic
positive effect on my health and fitness I've seen in my short 35 years on
this earth.

For most of my life I basically got no real protein in my diet -- cereal for
breakfast, pasta for dinner, etc. I was always just a bit out of shape, and no
matter how much time I spent at the gym I saw minimal improvements.

A few years ago I was inspired by a weightloss thread on reddit and "rebooted"
my eating and fitness. Started running, dumped my carb-heavy diet and moved to
a high-protein diet -- Greek yogurt, lots of chicken, cheese, etc.

I've lost 30 lbs and am seriously in better shape than I've ever been. My
exercise level went up, sure, but the dramatic change came from my diet
reboot.

So frankly, even if this were true, I'd rather live the life I've got now than
go back to the low-protein lethargy of my 20s.

~~~
earbitscom
You're talking about the difference in how you feel in the short term, in an
uncontrolled "experiment", where you started exercising at the same time,
versus an increase in long term disease. Of course you're going to feel better
if you lose 30 pounds and start exercising. What's to say you wouldn't feel
_even better than that_ if you dropped all of those carbs and started eating
far more vegetables and other vitamin rich non-proteins instead of all that
yogurt? No offense, but do a line of cocaine and you'll feel better for a
short period of time, too. It doesn't mean you're healthier or increasing your
life expectancy.

~~~
tzamora
You are right. There are researches that show that fats like bacon are kind of
nootropics.

[http://www.naturalmedicineconsultations.com/45-your-brain-
ne...](http://www.naturalmedicineconsultations.com/45-your-brain-needs-good-
fats)

The fats are so important and good to your body and brain, that when you eat a
lots of healthy fats (and I mean lots) your body and your brain are "high",
feeling well, thinking better and increasing your physical performance.

Eating lots of fats and vegetables, medium to high in proteins, and low on
carbs (or zero if possible) its the best and healthiest way to live.

------
rickdale
This article is ridiculous. It never mentions anything about the quality of
the animal protein, yet points out that people that follow paleo are probably
eating a high protein diet. People that are actually eating paleo aren't just
eating any animal protein. And that makes a big difference.

~~~
andylei
> It never mentions anything about the quality of the animal protein

why do you think this matters. their study studies the relation between
protein and longevity.

> People that are actually eating paleo aren't just eating any animal protein.
> And that makes a big difference.

the article indicates that the causal link is related to IGF-1 levels. what
does protein "quality" have to do with this, or longevity in general?

~~~
adventured
All protein types are not created equal, for one thing.

It's entirely possible that the negative association with protein has a lot
more to do with the over-consumption of certain types of meat.

If you live off of nothing but bacon as your source of protein, I'd argue the
sodium and cholesterol in your average variety processed bacon are likely to
be very dangerous for your health long term. Versus getting your protein from
high quality whey or salmon. Did this study control for the source of the
protein?

~~~
insaneirish
> If you live off of nothing but bacon as your source of protein, I'd argue
> the sodium and cholesterol in your average variety processed bacon are
> likely to be very dangerous for your health long term.

Pork fat is among the healthiest of all animal fats (and better than pretty
much everything except avocado and olive oil). You can see its chemistry here:
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lard](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lard)

The link between dietary cholesterol and blood serum cholesterol is not well
established. And sodium is typically not bad for you unless you have
complicating issues.

Salmon is great for you, especially if it's wild and therefore not fed crap.
The research (e.g.
[http://www.jle.com/e-docs/00/04/61/1C/article.phtml](http://www.jle.com/e-docs/00/04/61/1C/article.phtml))
is beginning to show that our omega-6 to omega-3 ratio has gotten out of
whack.

Simply put: we're eating too much crap with cheap, processed, plant oil
derived omega-6 that blows away the amount of omega-3 we are eating.

Eat more pork fat, eat more butter, eat more salmon, eat more tuna. For
plants, eat more olive oil, coconut oil, and avocados. Stop eating stuff that
comes in shrink wrap.

------
briantakita
Animal protein-rich diets are also bad for land, water, and energy
conservation.

~~~
mark_l_watson
+1 - this is a point a lot of people don't get: it can take roughly 10 times
the water and 10 times the energy to produce meat rather than vegetables and
grains.

~~~
bryanlarsen
That's because it's a ridiculous statement. Sure, cattle convert grain
calories into meat calories fairly inefficiently. But cattle evolved to eat
grass, not grain. Grazing cattle on the prairies is far more environmentally
friendly than ripping up that prairie to replace it with a wheat monoculture.

Animals that evolved to eat grains, such as chickens, convert calories much
more efficiently.

~~~
DavidAdams
It's true that grass-fed animals don't have the same environmental impact as
grain-fed ones. But the problem is that there's no way to produce enough beef
to meet worldwide demand other than concentrated feedlots. And certainly no
way to produce it at the low cost that the market demands.

Unless the cost of beef can be adjusted to include all the negative
externalities that its production entails (topsoil loss, water and air
pollution from fertilizers, pesticides, manure, and diesel fuel, antibiotic
resistant super-bugs, public health threats from unsanitary slaughterhouse
practices, etc) then meat producers and consumers will benefit from cheaper
prices while the environment suffers.

------
lingben
This study has absolutely ZERO merit (observational... ppssh!). And it is
beyond irresponsible and bombastic to say protein is worse or as bad as
smoking!

This study from Europe in contrast is the real deal:
[http://www.motherjones.com/environment/2013/03/eat-burger-
wo...](http://www.motherjones.com/environment/2013/03/eat-burger-wont-kill-
you)

"In fact, the study shows that not eating red meat is a risk factor for an
early demise."

Grass fed red meat is very healthy for humans. This is just pure scientific
fact.

There's also this: [http://life.nationalpost.com/2013/06/25/jennifer-sygo-we-
all...](http://life.nationalpost.com/2013/06/25/jennifer-sygo-we-all-need-
more-protein-but-be-careful-where-and-when-you-get-it/)

------
shittyanalogy
COULD BE, MAY, MIGHT, TEND TO, THROWS DOUBT. Where's the research?

~~~
andylei
probably this: [http://www.cell.com/cell-
metabolism/abstract/S1550-4131(14)0...](http://www.cell.com/cell-
metabolism/abstract/S1550-4131\(14\)00062-X), and [http://www.cell.com/cell-
metabolism/fulltext/S1550-4131(14)0...](http://www.cell.com/cell-
metabolism/fulltext/S1550-4131\(14\)00065-5)

------
zenbowman
Observational study with not even an attempt to control other variables =
confirmed useless

~~~
andylei
well, there's also this [http://www.cell.com/cell-
metabolism/fulltext/S1550-4131(14)0...](http://www.cell.com/cell-
metabolism/fulltext/S1550-4131\(14\)00065-5)

------
ovechtrick
Robb Wolf's response to this ridiculous article is on his blog.

[http://robbwolf.com/2014/03/04/meat-bad-
cigarettes/](http://robbwolf.com/2014/03/04/meat-bad-cigarettes/)

------
gnoway
At this point it's difficult for me to take seriously any study or article
attempting to equate animal products with adverse health effects. There's a
religious element to food selection now and it's hard to tell what's
legitimate vs. lobbying or proselytization.

------
nazgulnarsil
Any study on meat that does not control carefully for processed meat is
garbage and should be ignored.

------
jasallen
This is grossly irresponsible. I am pleased to see most of the comments here
realize that.

-Muscle tone requires more protein.

-Protein consumption is one of the very best ways to sate hunger, thereby reducing consumption of fat and carbohydrates.

-It takes more work for the body to convert amino acids to glucose and ATP, so the by the time it finishes your 'net calorie' is less than actually consumed.

-Unused protein is often excreted rather than stored in adipose cells (fat).

In short, protein is good for you. Both animal and plant protein. And while
your minimum functions don't require all that much, you should probably be
eating more. Poor conducted correlation studies don't change that.

------
vixen99
No mention of what extras we get in meat courtesy of the feedstock for the
animals.

"Most U. S. beef cattle are implanted with synthetic hormones in feedlots
prior to slaughter. On January 1, 1989 the European Economic Community (EEC)
placed a ban on hormone-treated U. S. meat, preventing U. S. meat products
from being sold in any European nations. The United States Department of
Agriculture (USDA) has challenged the ban and accused the EEC of unfair trade
practices, but the action of European governments raises some important
questions about American meat."

------
tzamora
[http://www.reddit.com/r/science/comments/1zk81g/low_protein_...](http://www.reddit.com/r/science/comments/1zk81g/low_protein_intake_is_associated_with_a_major/\[1\])

Comments here do a good job pointing out the shortcomings of the study.

------
etiam
As usual nothing about _what kind_ of animal protein... A bit like claiming
'intake of plant minerals presents severe and acute dangers to human health'
after including in the study a variety of species rich in, respectively,
calcium, potassium, magnesium, and arsenic.

Milk protein has known detrimental health effects, and probably dominates the
effects described here. (But since they don't even make the distinction, how
would we know?) I have yet to see convincing evidence that protein from e.g.
muscle is problematic for cancer risk or cardiovascular health at reasonable
levels of intake, and I won't be holding my breath waiting for that to show
up.

------
bdcravens
Hyperbolic title doesn't entirely match up with article:

 _But whereas middle-aged people who consumed a lot of animal protein tended
to die younger from cancer, diabetes and other diseases, the same diet seemed
to protect people 's health in old age._

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npsimons
The key thing a lot of low carb, high protein diets tend to ignore is that
it's hard on the kidneys:

[http://www.webmd.com/diet/news/20030317/high-protein-
diets-c...](http://www.webmd.com/diet/news/20030317/high-protein-diets-can-
hurt-kidneys)

So you lost weight and feel better on a low carb high protein diet? Good for
you! Some of us inherit high cholesterol, diabetes and kidney disease, along
with other reasons to keep to a diet high in fiber and low in animal protein,
especially beef.

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Kurtz79
The study says that under 65 a protein-rich diet will basically kill you,
while over 65 it's actually beneficial ?

Is explained in any way why it should be so ?

And I assume that this study is serious and other factors are accounted for,
since it's likely that people with a lower animal protein intake have a more
balanced diet overall, with an higher intake of fruits and vegetables and a
lower intake of saturated fats...

~~~
earbitscom
It says that early on and for extended periods these things cause heart
disease and cancer, which would be bad for somebody over the course of 65
years, and the amount of protein is unnecessary. But when you get older and
your body starts to break down, the increased protein is better for you.

And, although it doesn't say it, by the time you're 65 and if you have been
eating healthy all of that time, developing cancer from a proten-rich diet is
mitigated by the fact that you only maintain that diet for your remaining
15-25 years, not for the 65 leading up to then.

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tzamora
Its incredible how the media pushes us to be as unhealthy as possible.

Eat more natural, thats the only real thing. It doesnt matter if its meat or
fats or vegetables or whatever. If its processed its made with the only
purpose to taste good so it would be easy to sell.

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kyllo
Interestingly enough, IGF-1 (Insulin-Like Growth Factor 1) is the active
ingredient in that deer antler velvet spray that Ray Lewis (NFL player) uses
for performance enhancement.

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wizo
There is a big difference between processed meat products from feedlot animals
and non-processed meat from 'naturally' raised animals.

