
Private Porn Shoots - pavel_lishin
https://popehat.com/2016/11/06/private-porn-shoots-brilliant-no
======
serg_chernata
The fact that consenting adults aren't free to do whatever they please with
their bodies is utterly bizarre.

~~~
howeyc
That's true. And unfortunately the act itself usually gets tied to other
issues every time it's discussed. Human trafficking for example.

I wish people were more willing to separate the act of "consenting adults
doing a financial transaction" from all the surrounding "badness" but that
rarely happens.

~~~
verbify
I believe prostitution should be legal, but I think the issue is still tied to
trafficking.

It's a lot more difficult to ensure that people are there consensually when
brothels are driven underground. How can we possibly police every single
'massage parlour'.

On the other hand, legal brothels could have an extra tax that paid for social
workers that ensured the brothels were compliant - that sex workers weren't
intimidated by their customers or bosses.

It will also lead to healthier outcomes - we can then test people to make sure
diseases weren't being spread.

Unfortunately people learn nothing from sex-ed stats - 'abstinence only' makes
thing worse.

~~~
taxicabjesus
> It's a lot more difficult to ensure that people are there consensually when
> brothels are driven underground.

What is consent? Early in my taxi driving career I had a passenger who was
certainly a 'working girl', and she didn't seem to have enjoyed herself
much... And she certainly wouldn't have spent the night at that hotel if she
wasn't economically stressed.

    
    
      Usually women who enter that profession do so because they 
      need the money - not always, but usually. I sent some non-verbal 
      compassion and understanding her way. Indeed, some of Jesus 
      of Nazareth's ("who became the Christ") best friends were 
      working girls.
    

\- [http://www.taxiwars.org/2012/03/day-12-working-
girl.html](http://www.taxiwars.org/2012/03/day-12-working-girl.html)

~~~
chefkoch
If i didn't need the money i wouldn't work for 50+ hours a week....

~~~
Avshalom
To be fair you probably don't ""need"" the money. I know of plenty of women
with two+ children working for <$13 an hour.

------
joshuaheard
tldr: the article asks why is porn legal and prostitution illegal when both
are being paid for sex.

I never really thought about that distinction before. The author's answer
makes sense. What it really shows is that prostitution should be legal.

~~~
alicewales
I guess in the case of pornography, both participants are being paid by a
third party (the producer) for taking part in the sex act. This is different
from a typical prostitute/client relationship, where one is paying the other
for sex.

(I don't know if this is addressed in the article - the site seems to have
fallen over.)

~~~
pavel_lishin
That's one of the criteria, yep.

Another one is legal forms required for producers and actors - there are forms
that each actor must fill out, these must be verified and kept. Not doing so
is a felony.

~~~
irishcoffee
So, I can't believe I'm about to say this: this kind of presents a
prostitution loophole, no?

As long as a 3rd party is involved, and "films" it (still, unmanned camera in
the room) and everyone fills out the paperwork, and the 3rd party handles the
payment (minimum wage for party A, minimum wage + $X for party B), party A
"buys some porn" at the curious cost of minimum wage + $X.

Am I missing something? Did I explain this poorly?

~~~
burkaman
Law is not code, prostitution as a concept is illegal. This is sort of like
wondering if you could avoid income tax by just doing a bunch of favors for
your really good friend, and then getting a totally unrelated Christmas
present from them.

~~~
pc86
> _Law is not code_

Remembering this would put a stop to 90% of legal "discussions" on HN.

~~~
Spivak
Except for when it is code. If you do something that is legal under the letter
of the law or when the law is ambiguous you are supposed to be given the
benefit of the doubt and granted leniency. If this wasn't the case then
lawmakers would have no reason to write laws precisely.

It's the other situation where law stops being code. If you do something that
is technically illegal but probably oughtn't be then the law can be
reinterpreted in your favor.

Assuming you followed the absolute letter of the law with your totally-not-a-
brothel then you would be fine (until the law is amended).

~~~
burkaman
My point is that laws are often intentionally not written precisely, because
it's impossible to enumerate every type of violation in advance. Looking at my
own state's prostitution law, you would need to define the following things to
get a precise law:

"money or its equivalent"

"offers"

"adultery"

"fornication"

etc.

The law is written in terms of broad concepts that a judge can interpret. In
most cases there is no such thing as "absolute letter of the law", partly
because English makes that impossible, but mostly because legislating such
strict specific definitions would be a bad idea. I think the impossibility of
bug-free software makes it clear that we wouldn't want laws written like code.

~~~
pavel_lishin
Many states do define those very precisely.

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vacri
> _courts that have considered the issue of porn v. prostitution acknowledge
> that you can 't just add a camera to a crime and call it "art." Otherwise,
> criminals would just strap on a helmet cam and go act like super-predators
> that haven't been brought to heel, right?_

This is a very weird argument to make. There isn't a legal form of videotaped
burglary or murder. There is a legal form of videotaped paid sex. 'Strapping
on a camera' theoretically turns prostitution into pornography, but turns
burglary into... ? Murder into... ?

~~~
bzbarsky
Into performance art.

With murder, it's harder to make a case, but a videotaped burglary by someone
who is a skilled burglar could certainly try to make the case that it's art.
There is a number of film scenes that are basically that, except the burglary
is faked, at which point you're left arguing that this one artistic expression
involves harm to people and this other one does not... and the analogy to the
porn/prostitution situation is pretty clear at that point, I think.

~~~
vacri
There is no legal form of performance art that destroys/takes other people's
property without their consent. I can't smash up a corporate sculpture with a
sledgehammer (without consent) and call it 'art' to avoid prosecution.

~~~
bzbarsky
> There is no legal form of performance art that destroys/takes other people's
> property without their consent.

There are most certainly legal forms of performance art that steal people's
time without their consent [1]. How is stealing an hour of someone's time
(e.g. by worsening traffic during their commute for a week) qualitatively
different from stealing $2 from the same person? I mean in a moral/ethical
sense; legally these are different because the law generally doesn't do a good
job of treating time as a limited commodity people have and that can be taken
away from them, as far as I can tell. That's a problem with our laws, I will
grant that.

[1]
[http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/02/us/californias-1970s-conce...](http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/02/us/californias-1970s-conceptual-
art-comes-home-to-berkeley-museum-of-art.html) cites an example. If it's _too_
egregious as in [http://hyperallergic.com/332844/why-did-the-tree-cross-
the-r...](http://hyperallergic.com/332844/why-did-the-tree-cross-the-road-
because-performance-art/) it can in fact lead to legal charges, but note that
if the tree had just stopped the performance at the first police request it
would still have stolen time from people and gotten away with no consequences.
Even as it was, I doubt the punishment will be what it would have been if the
same person had stolen a few dollars each from dozens of people.

~~~
vacri
Switching from a legal debate to a moral one... we may as well go back to
first principles and ask why is prostitution illegal in the first place?
Plenty of places have legal prostitution and better quality of life for the
prostitutes (eg Australia or Germany) than in places where it's illegal.

------
muad
TIL that most people have no idea how the porn industry operates.

Equating porn to prostitution is like equating a stunt driver to that crazy
asshole that ran you off the road.

The porn industry is pretty heavily regulated, requiring std checks,
identification, consent forms, and witnesses.

Legal prostitution would attempt to achieve the same level of regulation, but
due to the scale it will just result in more trafficing and abuse.

~~~
boznz
But there is a lot of porn I suspect that is not made in the USA or other
countries with these legal frameworks in place and I suspect most people
viewing it realistically do not really care where it is made (be honest!).

Prostitution on the other hand is always in the country where the service is
provided. Big difference.

~~~
CptJamesCook
Porn is more pleasing when the girl sounds and looks like girls that you know.
It gives it a more realistic feel. So consumers actually do care where the
porn is made.

~~~
pavel_lishin
> _Porn is more pleasing when the girl sounds and looks like girls that you
> know._

Unless you're attracted to women you consider "exotic", in which case the
girl-next-door look would bore you.

------
bcheung
Great write up. Thanks for sharing this. Did you do any research into how
states differ in terms of porn / prostitution laws? It seems like the porn
industry has been having an exodus from California. Especially with prop 60. A
lot are moving to Nevada so I'm wondering what the situation will be like
there. My understanding is that prostitution is legal in certain counties but
porn does not yet have enough precedent there. Anybody else know more?

------
blubb-fish
How about this:

The John has to audition for the porn shoot (which in practice will take 5
seconds) but an administrative charge of $200 has to be paid by him to the
film studio company. The film studio pays then $100 to him and $100 to the
actress as salary for the porn shoot. At the end the resulting porn flick is
encrypted, stored in a super secured data vault and offered for sale at the
price of $1,000,000,000 ... ?

I think I hacked the law!

