
Mexican Newspaper Shuts Down, Saying It Is Too Dangerous to Continue - schoen
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/03/world/americas/el-norte-closes-mexican-newspaper.html
======
telesilla
I truly love the country of México - I have spent a large periods of time
there for the climate, as a place to work and have a wonderful life, away from
the chills of winter. I often thought about making a permanent relocation, but
this terror is too real and I found myself living in constant anxiety of my
friends and colleagues being in danger, and the fear of speaking your mind
weighs on you after a while. I am saddened because the people, the food, the
weather, the architecture (particularly D.F.) makes for a crazy, exciting mix
where the wealth and treasure of history and (deserved) national pride
contrasts with poverty and the political and social conservatism that goes
alongside. México: may things improve for you, though I really have no idea
how that will happen.

~~~
gph
>may things improve for you, though I really have no idea how that will
happen.

I think a good first step would be changing attitudes towards drug use. We
should treat users as patients instead of criminals. And waging a 'war'
against dealers and smugglers has only made them more violent and dangerous,
while driving up prices and making those who survive even wealthier. There
needs to be smarter policies.

~~~
djsumdog
I think America should stop buying drugs from Mexico, shipping them guns and
promoting the violence.

Garry Webb and Michael Rupert were two amazing reporters that brought to light
the reality of the CIA funded cocaine trade from South and Central America,
and most people today have either never heard of them or dismiss them as
crazy. The reality is the CIA still funds itself with cocaine and still causes
violence south of our border for the industries that would benefit. United
Fruit, Bay of Pigs, the 1973 Coupe of Chile, School of the Americas... the
list is as long as you want to make it.

This comic sums it up: [http://imgur.com/a/Wtt6H](http://imgur.com/a/Wtt6H)

~~~
hwillis
>shipping them guns

This is occasionally obfuscated, but it is utterly true. There are basically
two kinds of guns (of the kind you can use to enforce this "war") in the world
stage: AK-like (Russian, eastern European, and Chinese included) and AR-like
(MXX(X) and modified civilian, from dealers and left over from military/agency
operations). The AR-like guns are extremely common in Mexico, and they
obviously are all American made. There are also a lot of AK-like weapons,
which are... also all American. Bare minimum, they are legally bought in the
US and smuggled into Mexico.

These facts are often overlooked by claims that you can't be sure where the
guns come from- 87% of the 4000 guns we can track come from the US, but that
only represents 12% of the 30,000 guns seized. The real fact is the Mexican
military has seized over 300,000 guns[1], and very few of those AK-like guns
come from Russia or China. The overwhelming majority of those weapons had to
have been built or sold in America.

In the US there's a huge amount of disbelief that we can actually be the
source of these guns. I honestly think that comes from a mistaken belief that
guns actually exist everywhere... America is a giant gun store, the biggest on
the block, saying they need to keep selling guns because of all these guns
everybody keeps buying.

[1]:
[https://web.archive.org/web/20090703011254/http://www.sfgate...](https://web.archive.org/web/20090703011254/http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-
bin/article.cgi?f=/n/a/2009/05/06/international/i111117D34.DTL&hw=gun&sn=014&sc=1000)

~~~
WillPostForFood
Good argument for better border control between the two countries.

~~~
hwillis
There are good arguments for border patrol but this is not one of them. These
guns are legal in the US and all you have to do to get them into Mexico is
load them on a catapult and drive out to the middle of nowhere, or load them
in one of the hundreds of small boats that make the trip. It's trivial to find
guns illegally coming into mexico from a boat that can cross oceans and nearly
impossible for a boat you can make in your garage. Border patrol will not
solve gun violence in Mexico any more than it will solve cocaine in America.

As an unrelated thing, I find it mind boggling that immigration is still an
explicitly national issue in America. Refugees and immigrants would be much
better handled if they were done on a per-state basis. If California wants to
let in a ton of Mexicans and issue them state-only green cards, why should
Texas be able to vote to stop them? Likewise if Texas wants to exclude
immigrants, why should California force Texas to give them jobs?

State-only green card programs would allow immigrants to be carefully tracked
(national green card holders face deportation if their residence is not on
file), gives them incentive to go from states where they aren't wanted to
those where they are, and allows national money and patrol efforts to be
focused where they are wanted. Immigrants can't steal Texan jobs if they live
in California.

~~~
mikeash
Leaving immigration to the states would require internal border controls. This
is not something most people want.

~~~
toomanybeersies
The EU manages to have immigration on a per-nation basis (for non-EU
countries), without internal border controls.

~~~
hwillis
True, but there are some partial exceptions (Britain and France) and reality
hasn't stopped people from pointing to the EU as an example of the system gone
horribly awry.

Despite the lack of conditionals placed on EU immigrants, the lack of tracking
and free movement, there has been very little migration from border countries
that accept migrants willingly.

------
matt_wulfeck
It's _us_ , the USA, that is causing this paper to shutdown. The cartels are
financed by the insatiable drug appetite of its close neighbor. Our inability
and/or unwillingness to legalize recreational drugs is the feeding tube for
these vicious groups.

~~~
2_listerine_pls
It's surprisingly simple to locate the plantations using LIDAR + spectrometry.
Even easier in Afghanistan, where fields are cultivated in the open. It's so
well documented that the UNDOC provides an anual report with the amount in
acres. I could go on, but this is enough to make one wonder why they aren't
being stopped.

~~~
jfim
> I could go on, but this is enough to make one wonder why they aren't being
> stopped.

Except for that pesky sovereignty thing.

~~~
2_listerine_pls
Is that the same sovereignty that stopped the US from from drilling their oil
after overthrowing their government?

It's odd reason given that narcotics are/were supposedly one of the principal
sources of the Taliban’s financing.

~~~
Paradigma11
What oil in afghanistan?

Even in iraq the oil reserves are managed by the iraqi ministry and went
mostly to chinese companies.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China%E2%80%93Iraq_relations#R...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China%E2%80%93Iraq_relations#Recent_history)
[http://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/03/world/middleeast/china-
rea...](http://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/03/world/middleeast/china-reaps-
biggest-benefits-of-iraq-oil-boom.html)

------
arkitaip
I have nothing but respect for the journalists of Mexico and the incredibly
valuable and dangerous job that they do every single day so I hope it doesn't
come off as to condescending or uninformed to suggest that journalists wanting
to investigate drug cartels and the government should set up underground
printing presses. During World War 2 many resistance members did so in
countries occupied by the Axis Powers and they were able to print and
distribute their newspapers out under the most dangerous conditions imaginable
[1][2].

Of course, in 2017 it's easier to set up a clandestine press organization
using the internet, but I'm certain that there are many valuable lessons to
learn from WW2.

[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Underground_press](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Underground_press)

[2]
[https://warpress.cegesoma.be/en/node/13](https://warpress.cegesoma.be/en/node/13)

~~~
MaxfordAndSons
Blog Del Narco[1] is one such underground source. Of course, some accuse it of
falling short of journalistic standards because it filters almost nothing, and
so has often been used as a de facto PR outlet for numerous cartels. Even so,
one of its founders is believed to have been murdered in 2013, and the other
was forced to leave Mexico permanently.

[1][http://www.blogdelnarco.com/](http://www.blogdelnarco.com/)

~~~
6stringmerc
BDN is a use at your own risk site.

I far prefer www.borderlandbeat.com

Very committed group working with material to translate into English to spread
knowledge about the goings on in the large scope of the country. Many
different regions / players. Just a suggestion.

~~~
MaxfordAndSons
> BDN is a use at your own risk site.

I'm curious, what risk(s) do you mean? If you mean NSFW and disturbing
violence, you're right, and I apologize to anyone who didn't get that - I
assumed given the topic it would be self evident.

Also I second your endorsement of Borderland Beat, that's what I actually read
as a non-Spanish speaker.

~~~
6stringmerc
From what I'd seen posted on the Borderland Beat forums on a semi-regular
basis BDN gets injection type viruses. They're a target in that regard because
of their site having vulnerabilities.

That's the main concern of why I don't visit, but in a secondary category is
I've seen several instances where the Borderland Beat crew fact-check and note
that BDN has recycled old material / videos under the guise of new
information. I don't see that as helpful so I keep that under advisement.

Might not be a surprise but Breitbart apparently is staffing a Cartel / Mexico
Crime crew to a decent extent and I have given them a look here and there.
Viable sources are viable, and that's a dangerous as all get out sector to be
in, so if they can get facts reported, I'll check them out / cross-reference
with Borderland Beat.

------
digitalmaster
This is why real journalist need to be protected regardless where you stand on
the issues. It's a pillar of democracy for a very important reason.

~~~
Banthum
Agreed, but let's make that even more general. No need to limit that to "real
journalists", since then you're just asking for people to build an ivory tower
and use it as a power base for control of "non-real" "journalists".

Everyone needs to be free to speak their minds. Freedom of speech is for
everyone.

~~~
gdulli
We're at a precarious time in history when journalism is being used
particularly effectively as an intentional disinformation tool. "Real
journalism" unfortunately does need to be distinguished. Free speech doesn't
encompass fraud.

~~~
tanderson92
Does the constitution list fraud as an exception to the free speech
provisions?

~~~
amalcon
I am not a lawyer, this is not legal advice, etc.

Assuming you mean the Mexican constitution, it's kind of vague:

Article 6 . The expression of ideas shall not be subject to any judicial or
administrative investigation, unless it offends good morals, infringes the
rights of others, incites to crime, or disturbs the public order.

"Offends good morals" is not defined anywhere, so it's up to interpretation
whether that includes fraud. "Infringes the rights of others" is defined in
various places, but in similarly vague terms.

~~~
tanderson92
Thanks.

------
lucain
I'm native from cd Juarez and I have a friend who is a journalist photographer
and I'm sorry to tell you guys that even indeed free and critical journalism
is on constant jeopardy because of the drug cartels and the corrupt government
this journal didn't closed because it was to dangerous to do so. My friend
told me that it closed because it was not profitable anymore.

The facebook rant about it:
[https://www.facebook.com/sugeyry/posts/10154385439001931?pnr...](https://www.facebook.com/sugeyry/posts/10154385439001931?pnref=story)

Keep in mind that this is a journalist talking about a decision made the by
owner of the paper a while ago, the original decision haves nothing to do with
the death of Miroslava Breach or with some pressure of drug gangs. This paper
was under the payroll of the late government now followed for corruption and
money laundry (Cesar Duarte former governor is hidden at El Paso at this
moment). And the "it is too dangerous to continue" is more a political cry out
than any other thing.

Yes: times are still hard at Juarez, journalism is still a high risk job. But
this is not a statement.

------
itsmemattchung
> The committee reported that since 1992, 38 journalists have been killed with
> the motives for the slayings confirmed as reprisals for their work. Based on
> that figure, the group ranked Mexico as No. 11 of the 20 deadliest countries
> for journalists.

I cannot imagine living in a country where posting something online, like a
silly blog post, risks my life.

~~~
komali2
Are you sure? Any American that's written something controversial inevitably
will tell the story of the death threats they received after.

JK Rowling got them for writing about child wizards. Planned Parenthood
supporters get them. Trump electors have gotten them. Kim Kardashian (ugh) got
them for a tweet supporting Israel.

It's easy to find lists of Americans that have received death threats, but
much harder to find Americans actually killed because of their silly posts.
Would love to read more about it.

~~~
seppin
> but much harder to find Americans actually killed because of their silly
> posts

can you name one?

~~~
komali2
>Would love to read more about it.

------
khanbalam
I am from Mexico and live in Mexico City.

To clarify a little bit, the newspaper is from a northern state. And yes,
things in the northern states are rather violent and dangerous. But to be
honest the really bad state is the one close to the capital, Estado de México
which has many violent crime, crime against women, etc. We even joke that is
like Mad Max fury road. Yes that bad.

Yet people go to work, to school and carry on.

As everything there are many sides and conflicting interests. Yet violence and
crime are just one more bad thing to worry, being traffic and low income being
other stuff you have to take into consideration.

As tourists you could always go to many other places instead of Ciudad Juárez
or Tijuana since those two have become cities for degenerate people from other
countries to abuse and commit atrocities and get away with it for the only
reason that they have the dollars.

~~~
saganus
"But to be honest the really bad state is the one close to the capital".

Not even close.

A couple of years ago on a SINGLE year there were some 5 or 6 narco-blockades
in Guadalajara for example (that's one every few months and we are talking 25
to 35 buses lit on fire in the middle of the day, across major streets that
prevent people from entering or leaving the city for several hours, on _each_
blockade event, all around the city at the same time, which btw shows how
coordinated these criminal groups are). Have you personally been there? It's
really not a nice sight and it's frightening as shit. Especially when they
happen so frequently that at some point you just _have_ to ignore it to be
able to carry on with your life?

Have you been to Xalapa, the capital of Veracruz? where armed people dressed
as Federal Forces kidnap people with impunity? Have you had to move around in
the city in daylight and watch how military convoys armed to the teeth go
around patrolling the streets instead of the Police (mind you this is a town
that has a population of less than 1M, i.e. it's more of a town than a big
city so people are not used to military presence)?

Have you been to Veracruz city where the Navy had to literally disarm the
local police and take control of police duties for a few months? how about
getting stopped by a military checkpoint in the middle of the city? especially
after watching in the news how many times military personnel at those same
checkpoints fired upon (and killed) entire families because they felt
threatened?

Have you ever talked to someone that got arrested AND tortured by the police
because they thought (incorrectly) that the guy was a member of the cartel?
and then seeing this person suffer permanent hearing loss on one side because
of how many times his captors slammed his ear against the wall repeatedly for
hours at a time?

I've personally lived all these things and let me tell you, "the really bad
state is the one close to the capital" is not true _at all_. Not sure if it's
the news not reporting these things, or maybe there's so much shit going on in
EdoMex (which I know it's not really a peaceful place) that there's simply no
more room for bad news from other parts of the country, but you can definitely
find much worse in other states.

Let's not even talk about Guerrero, where I have friends that witnessed
headless bodies being dumped on the road... and then having some shady car
follow them to their home because they were at the wrong place at the wrong
time.

I'm sorry for being so crude... Mexico is a wonderful country full of great
things and I love it. But crazy, _crazy_ shit does happen outside of the
capital and EdoMex, and while it's definitely not something that happens
everyday, it's always a constant fear in the back of your head... "what if
they kidnap MY family because their business was successful enough to stand
up?", "what if my girlfriend goes out tonight to some bar that happens to have
fucking _military-grade grenades_ thrown at because some random cartel dude
wanted to celebrate that same night at that same place?"

------
wolfkill
My wife is from a small town in Mexico where there has been a recent surge in
violence and kidnappings. Her family is there and we go visit once a year or
so as we can. Last time I was there there was a couple of moments that made
realize I was just waiting for something terrible to happen. I worry I (as the
American) am painting a target on my wife's family. Every time they call
unexpectedly I fear for the worst. Right now, I'm not sure if we will go this
year.

------
wonderous
Less than 1% of crimes are punished in Mexico:

[http://www.insightcrime.org/news-briefs/mexico-impunity-
leve...](http://www.insightcrime.org/news-briefs/mexico-impunity-levels-
reach-99-study)

~~~
seppin
interesting. I wonder how that ranks against other lawless countries / regions

~~~
mtgx
In stark contrast with Russia, where only 1% of those prosecuted _don 't go_
to prison:

[http://www.thenational.ae/news/world/europe/russias-99-convi...](http://www.thenational.ae/news/world/europe/russias-99-conviction-
rate-thrown-into-question)

------
brooklynmarket
Can someone explain to me, what would happen if Mexico tomorrow, all drugs
were legal like Portugal? Could it get any worse. Portugal seems to doing just
fine.

~~~
3131s
Just to clarify, drugs are not legal in Portugal. There is decriminalization
on small amounts, but not full legalization. However, Portugal's experiment is
a resounding success and I'd expect even greater benefits from legalization
(e.g. tax money derived from the industry around recreational drugs).

~~~
nakedrobot2
Well yes but this is a nitpick in my opinion. Drug possession in personal
amounts is not a criminal offense. So they are no longer "super illegal" you
could say. It's in the same category as a driving offense or something like
that. Same in Czech Republic.

~~~
3131s
It's not a nitpick at all. Without legalization there is no tax money from
sales of recreational drugs, and the black market still exists to collect that
profit instead. Decriminalization also does not fix problems like
contamination of drugs, mislabeling, or inconsistent dosage, whereas
legalization would.

Decriminalization is better than nothing but actually misses out on most of
the benefits.

------
netmask
well actually the "El Norte" news paper was about to close much before that
the journalist was murdered, the thing is that specific newspaper was in a
thigh relation with the ex chihuahua governor( now fugitive ) Cesar Duarte,
the owners of the newspaper takes this tragic to get some political tax
against the new governor from the oposition Javier corral

------
Pica_soO
I wish there was some mafia approach to rebuild a civil state. This is our
house, our block, our town, we avoid interacting with people who support the
corrupt government and we do not interact with Narcosi. Just shut out all
strangers, isolate people who pose a long term thread to your community. Shun
the restaurant, where the cops eat, walk your dog to where the drug dealers
are. Create small economy's, which do not bribe, do not interact with drug
money, do not sell to gang-members and "public" officials. Have a cell-
structured civil service with a anonymously voted for or against major.

~~~
kakarot
Walk our dogs to the dealer's house but not touch drug money? Could you
clarify this seeming contradiction?

~~~
Pica_soO
It was a lame example for civil dis-obedience. You let your dog shit where the
drug-deals go down. Have a farmer spray the whole parking lot with merde.
Primitive, not over the violence threshold, and yet, unpleasant. Sorry, its
really tough to come up with something that would deter, but not escalate.

~~~
kakarot
Why would you purposefully spread feces next to drug dealers? What has this
demographic of society that is largely born of economic desperation done to be
condemned by us so?

------
tempodox
Stopping the flow of money to the cartels would require the U.S. and others to
legalize drugs and make the prices plummet. Is the upkeep of hypocrisy and the
DEA really worth _any_ amount of murder and corruption?

~~~
sparrish
Legalizing wouldn't stop the flow. You think they'd just throw up their arms
and walk away?

Cartels would just lower their prices and keep pushing to existing addicts and
creating addicts. Once the price is driven down, how are 'legal' drug
manufacturers expected to compete on price with taxes, licensing, overhead?

Legalizing won't stop blackmarket drugs, it will only increase it like in
Colorado. [http://kdvr.com/2017/03/03/black-market-marijuana-
business-b...](http://kdvr.com/2017/03/03/black-market-marijuana-business-
booming/)

------
tracker1
I'm curious if any of the reporters will continue their work for foreign news
agencies under pseudonyms to protect their local identity.

~~~
wonderous
Someone would rat them out, a source would be discovered and give them away,
they'd out themselves for ego, make a fatal operational security error, etc.

------
driverdan
I'm guessing there's more to it than the risk. Maybe it was in financial
trouble, maybe the owner(s) wanted out anyway, maybe they were threatened
directly or paid off, or maybe something else.

------
Andredi4Real
Mexico can be super dangerous. But it is a beautiful country with so much to
offer. If you go to the right places though it is very safe.

------
known
Why not give guns to journalists
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_gun_owner...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_gun_ownership)

~~~
tim333
Not sure how that's supposed to help. If some sniper shoots you it doesn't
make much difference if you were carrying a gun or not.

------
douche
The entire Spanish new world has been a failed state for the past 300 years.

Peruvian and Mexican metals kept them viable for a while, but that ran out
long ago. Coke has barely filled the void, thanks to US prohibition.

~~~
Findeton
Chile, Panama, Argentina are pretty good in comparison to many other
countries. Also if you take into account the last 300 years, well... not only
Argentina was richer than the USA 100 years ago but Venezuela (yes, Venezuela)
was in better economic shape than, for example Spain, for decades during the
XX century.

~~~
douche
There's no way that Argentina was richer than the US in 1917, when American
manufacturers and bankers were busily sucking up the wealth of the Entente
powers by supplying war materiel and loans.

Not even ten years ago, Venezuela was the darling of the NY Times, among
others, under Chavez. Of course, gasoline was close to $4 a gallon then.

