
Why the Amazon Is on Fire - pseudolus
https://www.citylab.com/environment/2019/08/amazon-rainforest-fire-map-burning-bolsonaro-deforestation-map/596605/
======
wsxcde
If you are seriously concerned about climate change, pressure your government
to impose a large tax on beef and pay the proceeds from that tax directly to
the people living in the amazon basin. That will incentivize them against
deforestation.

Expecting poor people to voluntarily give up on the opportunity to make money
because you are threatened about your children's future but can't even be
arsed to reduce your own consumption of beef is wishful thinking at best.

~~~
glogla
Beef is like 2 % of humanity's emissions. Gasoline-based transportation and
electricity (mostly from coal power plants) are together like 60 %.

It's obvious which one we need to focus on. Stop it with the beef already. We
need data driven approach. We really really don't need hysteria based approach
where something (like beef) is declared sinful.

(see [https://www.epa.gov/ghgemissions/sources-greenhouse-gas-
emis...](https://www.epa.gov/ghgemissions/sources-greenhouse-gas-emissions))

~~~
kdmccormick
Regardless of emissions, beef production is contributing to this specific
problem. From the article:

> Much of the deforestation binge is being driven by farming pressure: The
> Amazon basin is the largest exporter of beef in the world, with about 200
> million heads of cattle. And all those cows need a lot of space to spread
> out.

Did you not read before telling us we need a "data-driven approach"?

------
hu3
Some insight from NASA:

"In the Amazon region, fires are rare for much of the year because wet weather
prevents them from starting and spreading. However, in July and August,
activity typically increases due to the arrival of the dry season. Many people
use fire to maintain farmland and pastures or to clear land for other
purposes. Typically, activity peaks in early September and mostly stops by
November.

As of August 16, 2019, an analysis of NASA satellite data indicated that total
fire activity across the Amazon basin this year has been close to the average
in comparison to the past 15 years. (The Amazon spreads across Brazil, Peru,
Colombia, and parts of other countries.) Though activity appears to be above
average in the states of Amazonas and Rondônia, it has so far appeared below
average in Mato Grosso and Pará, according to estimates from the Global Fire
Emissions Database, a research project that compiles and analyzes NASA data."

[https://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/images/145464/fires-in-
bra...](https://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/images/145464/fires-in-brazil)

------
vfc1
The main responsibility of the Amazon fires lies in the west. The Amazon is on
fire in order for Brasil to be able to provide cheap meat for western
countries.

This comes under two main forms, one is to make room for soy crops, used
mostly for cattle feed and not for direct human consumption, the other is for
creating pasture land.

The west, as well as China, encourage the Amazon fires by favorable trade
agreements with Brasil, which incentivize the deforestation.

~~~
endorphone
"The Amazon is on fire in order for Brasil to be able to provide cheap meat
for western countries."

The largest markets for Brazil beef are, in order, Hong Kong, China, Russia,
Iran, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Chile, and Venezuela. I don't think this qualifies
as "Western Countries". A very small amount, relative to those consumers, goes
to the EU.

Close to none goes to the United States or Canada -- a minuscule novelty
amount -- both of which are entirely self sufficient with beef, poultry, etc,
and are net exporters.

There is a point where "blame the West" just isn't constructive as a go to.

~~~
vfc1
And where do those countries and the west get their soy? The top export of
Brasil are soy beans (for cattle feed), it's a 26 billion market -
[https://oec.world/en/profile/country/bra/#targetText=The%20t...](https://oec.world/en/profile/country/bra/#targetText=The%20top%20exports%20of%20Brazil,HS%20\(Harmonized%20System\)%20classification).

~~~
f00zz
US is the largest soybean producer in the world

~~~
vfc1
The US trade wars with China is one of the main reasons why the Soy bean
production in Brasil has increased in recent years -
[https://www.reuters.com/article/us-brazil-grains/brazil-
ride...](https://www.reuters.com/article/us-brazil-grains/brazil-rides-wave-
of-soybean-sales-to-china-as-u-s-trade-war-rages-idUSKCN1SN1Z7)

I know that the US is self-sufficient in meat, both in terms of raising the
cattle and the soy and corn crops that feed it.

Actually, a large portion of the US is dedicated to meat production, both in
pasture land and feed crops - [https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2018-us-
land-use/](https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2018-us-land-use/)

Which is insane if you ask me, a horrendous waste of resources.

~~~
kmonsen
Are you really saying that because China is refusing to buy soy beans from the
US, that makes the US to blame for China buying more soy beans from Brazil?

~~~
vfc1
I'm saying that global demand for cheap meat (lead by both China and the west)
is the actual cause for the ongoing deforestation, as the forest is being
cleared to produce cattle feed.

And this is something hardly mentioned in the news at all, by whatever reason.

The trade wars with China have made things a bit worst recently, as there is
more demand for brasilian soy.

The main responsibility for me lies with the consumers of the final product
(meat), because they are driving the demand.

But OK it's not just the west after all, it's mostly the west and China, but
really any nation that is importing cattle feed from Brasil is sponsoring the
deforestation, it's a global thing.

~~~
endorphone
It isn't the West _at all_ beyond the most marginal of imports to a small
number of EU countries. That you are trying to eek out some sort of completely
convoluted way that your incorrect claim was right is becoming some serious
mental gymnastics.

The West likes beef. The West overwhelmingly makes and feeds internally,
having nothing to do with the Amazon rainforests. Will you now argue that the
West is to blame because it doesn't make enough for itself _and_ China?

If you argued that palm oil production was a factor you'd have some basis, but
you are entirely and completely off base with these claims about beef.

~~~
vfc1
You know well that there are a lot more crops other than soy being planted,
it's obviously much more complicated than that.

Do you have any doubt that a lot of the products produced directly or
indirectly as a result of the deforestation are being sold mostly to the
richest countries in the world that can afford it?

------
zests
I have always heard that the rainforest is “carbon neutral” because a mature
forest will emit just as much carbon as it absorbs. With that in mind, why
does the fact that the rainforest produces 20% of the worlds oxygen matter?
When I read the above claim I felt like it was trying to push the “rainforests
save the atmosphere” angle and I do not know how accurate this sentiment is.

It goes without saying that cutting down the rainforest would release a lot of
CO2 and should not be done for many reasons. I am just curious what the
significance of producing “20% of the world’s oxygen” is. Or, what does the
rainforest do for the atmosphere besides act as a huge carbon bank?

------
tvphan
Just a random nitpick about the article...

> An avid deforester, Bolsonaro has jokingly nicknamed himself “Captain
> Chainsaw.”

An alternative article from The Guardian says that he rejects that term?!
[https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/aug/07/bolsonaro-
amaz...](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/aug/07/bolsonaro-amazon-
deforestation-exploded-july-data)

~~~
rsaraceni
Brazilian here. In fact, he rejects the term. Some people of his staff deny
global warming and he is known for lying and using fake science to justify
absurd measures, like removing most of the environmental protection in favor
of agriculture. Even rejecting the title, he is known like "Captain Chainsaw"
and many others nicknames, most of them mocking him. Unfortunately, in Brazil,
our people have a taste for populist presidents, and in this case, he still
have support of a big part of the population. Fortunately, his popularity is
declining very fast.

~~~
uxcolumbo
What do you think can be done to accelerate this? Is there anything we in the
West can do?

I've seen some petitions targeted at the Brazilian embassy here in my country
- but not sure of its effectiveness, as it seems Bolsonaro doesn't really care
what the West think.

~~~
emiliobumachar
Brazilian here. Meddling with politics could backfire hard, being wrapped
around the flag with foreigners booing him could actually bounce back his
popularity.

As for something the west could do, I'm not an expert, but I think offering to
foot the bill for police and inspectors in the area would go a long way.

Most logging and burning in the Amazon is still illegal, but it's very hard to
police a huge sparsely populated area[1], and our government is dysfunctional
even when it tries. The average Brazilian has little to no sympathy for the
criminals, but is ambivalent about paying more for police in the jungle far
away. It would be a lot easier to argue for more officers if someone else was
footing their salaries.

[1]The rogue logger only needs to win in a small area, any small area would
do. The state needs to win everywhere.

~~~
shinigami
There already was a international fund for paying for inspections and so on,
but it was canceled after Bolsonaro said they were using that money to
compensate farmers.

------
EGreg
The trade war will make things even worse:
[https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-019-00896-2](https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-019-00896-2)

On a more positive note, an international reforestation / environmental fund
should be set up ASAP to reward satellite-verified reforestation with $$$$ and
tax countries for deforestation.

It can also use the money to build multi story farms, where solar energy or
mirrors are used to feed plants on lower floors. You can save 5-10 the space
for cows this way. Why are farms without any stories?

[https://youtu.be/cY7O5YNxKuI](https://youtu.be/cY7O5YNxKuI)

 _To the downvoters: why not at least explain what you disagree with?_ _

~~~
uxcolumbo
Here is an upvote... not sure why you're being downvoted.

We should definitely invest more in vertical farming and the reforestation
fund also sounds good.

------
dgellow
As people good at developing software, is there anything we can do to help
with this situation, or issues related to climate change/other big
environmental stuff?

------
bookofjoe
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20769955](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20769955)

------
israelo2035
Brazilian President Jair Bolsonaro has an anti-climate speech similar to
Donald Trump's speeches on immigrants. This meant that in the city where I
live, people began selling artisanal charcoal from burning near the city.

------
vixen99
"Using current NASA data, Amazonian fires show a decline over the record, and
are nowhere close to a record so far in 2019."

[https://www.globalfiredata.org/forecast.html#elbeni](https://www.globalfiredata.org/forecast.html#elbeni)

~~~
bni
The dry season just started.

~~~
hu3
It started in July.

~~~
bni
And ends in November. My chart reading skills are notoriously bad, but I
interpreted the linked chart as "year to date", not expected outcome.

