
Living in Kiev: My first 3 months of observations - prostoalex
http://petersantenello.com/2017/02/06/living-in-kiev-my-first-3-months-of-observations/
======
pmalynin
Born in the slums of Kiev raised by a single mother, immigrated out of there
to Canada and now in the Bay Area.

Sure it has history, and some places look really nice...but come on. Seems to
be a bit of western romatiziation, but the whole country is / was about to
explode (I stood in The Square during the Orange Revolution), there are no
opportunities, the country is being literally, fucked, by Russia and the West
on the other side as some neo-proxy war circa 1960. Oh and the corruption,
corruption everywhere. Pulled over? No problem, just put a 50 in the passport
and hand it over non-challantely. What seems to be problem officer?. Oh...I
don't have a fire extinguisher, well look in the passport you'll definitely
see it. Pensioners and the disabled are getting royaly shafted by economy,
disability insurance and pensions have remained stable but the currency
devalued on a rate that is almost comparable to Venezuela.

The president before the current one spent time in jail.

I know people from Kiev that have visited Canada, and are literally trying
their hardest to get out before they get killed. When the power goes out at
night, almost everyday they think the Russian have finally decided to bomb
them.

If you're anything but white, even slightly asian looking, get ready to be
called racial slurs on the streets.

Neofacism is rampant, skinheads used to roam the streets.

Half the people from my school either got hooked on drugs or alcohol before
Grade 8. The AIDS epidemic literally almost swallowed the whole country. There
were horrible stories as a child that I used to hear of kids in the playground
playing with needles from heroin addicts and getting infected with HIV because
they stabbed themselves on accident and their parents coming to the brink of
suicide because of that. I also remember a story in the news when somebody put
a pin upside down in a movie theatre with a bit of blood on it, and nearby a
note that said "Welcome to the HIV family"... and somebody sat on it.

Not ever in my life do I want to go back to that.

~~~
afterburner
"the country is being literally, fucked, by Russia and the West on the other
side as some neo-proxy war circa 1960"

Not sure I'd put both Russia and the West on the same level here, Russia
literally invaded and annexed parts of Ukraine. It sucks though

I assume a lot of the appeal to Westerners visiting Ukraine is they are
effectively much richer than back home.

~~~
pmalynin
You are, of course, right; But the blame is on both sides. Russia, UK, and US
signed the Budapest Memorandum on Security Assurances. When the time came to
pay the Piper...everyone chickened out and essentially allowed Russia to show
aggression unchecked.

~~~
afterburner
You're not wrong, but I'm not sure how else it could have turned out. War
between the US and Russia has been avoided for a reason. Perhaps if they were
a part of NATO, which carries the serious threat of equating an attack on any
member as an attack against all members. But of course everything Russia has
done in Ukraine over the last 10 years has been in an effort to stop any
remote chance of Ukrainian membership in NATO, to avoid that very problem.

Some blame NATO expansion as "triggering" Russia, but honestly, what does
Russia expect after occupying Eastern Europe for 50 years. Those Eastern
European countries don't want a return to that. Harsh, autocratic Soviet
policies guaranteed antagonism.

------
kirillkh
I emigrated from Kiev at the age of 16, back in 1997. I jumped at the first
opportunity to get out of there, even though I knew it would be tough for some
years to come at the new place. As you can imagine, I hated everything about
that country.

I felt completely unprotected - there was no effective law, everyone was
either scared shitless and fighting for survival -- or a thug. It felt like
the thugs had complete power over "normal citizens" like myself. I was used
seeing them on my way home from school on the street corners waiting for a
chance to jump at a passerby and rob them. Often they would approach you and
start a conversation, probing your fear. Then you can only get away without
being humiliated/beaten/robbed by walking to a crowded place, maybe.

My dad, a scientist working at an institute (in the Soviet and post-Soviet
system the science was done in specialized "institutes", not in universities),
could barely make ends meet. That was in part because of hyperinflation (at
the lowest point he was making $100-$200 per month, IIRC) and in part because
of accumulating delays in salary payouts. I remember some periods of time when
all we had was bread, spaghetti and potatoes. We could not even afford
transport expenses for me to go to school - thankfully, the transport system
was in such shambles that there were barely any inspectors in the Metros and
buses, and certainly they didn't care enough to seriously try to punish me for
using it for free. Lots of people did that during the worst years in the 90's.

Many were left in the cold, with no means to survive. A generation of
pensioners basically died from hunger after years of struggle and humiliation.
Old people begging for money in the streets were a common sight.

Everything was dirty, malfunctioning, disintegrating. Police, courts, doctors,
the army - all corrupt. Army service was an absolute hell - underfunded,
unoccupied, with disintegrating facilities and corrupt officers, the soldiers
were at the mercy of inevitable bullies and thugs of their unit. Let me just
say that the abuse was commonplace and leave it at that.

Finally, it felt like everyone hated each other. Racism and xenophobia of
every kind. People just waiting to exploit your weakness.

Before leaving, I thought there would be periods of home-sickness I would have
to fight. Nothing like that ever happened. I left my parents and family
behind, but was reluctant to even come for a visit; only visited them once, in
1998. I often hear claims that it's all different now. But I think that's
wishful thinking - the same thugs who made it hell back in 1997 are still
alive and kicking. And, more importantly, so is the culture that nurtured
them.

~~~
guard-of-terra
I actually think your father made 10-20$ at the time. Don't laugh, it's the
reality of post-soviet states. I gather that today, $200 is a nice salary in
Ukraine (and some parts of Russia too)

~~~
kirillkh
You might be correct, my figures were a guess.

------
gravypod
Having spoken Russian as a kid, since my family were immigrants and it was
used a little bit in my house, I can definetly attest to how strange it is to
hear someone speak Ukrainian.

You'll be sitting there listening and everything is going fine and then a few
seconds into the conversation you'll think one of you had a stroke. It's like
talking to someone in English and then they instantly migrate to a thick
Irish-blacksmith dialect of English or maybe even cockney. You get the basis
of what they're saying but it just isnt coming through at all.

Anyway Kyiv is definetly on the list of amazing places to visit.

~~~
avenoir
Ha! Similarly, I always thought that if you know Russian Ukrainian sounds a
little silly. Every time I visit my folks (Ukrainian & Armenian fam) they
always have Ukrainian TV on. I really started paying attention and
appreciating the language. It flows so much better than Russian and sounds so
melodic. It's really beautiful. One thing I found odd is that I simply cannot
comprehend it most of the time outside of picking out separate words here and
there. Both of my parents have near-native comprehension of the language even
though neither can speak it.

~~~
guard-of-terra
Russian definitely had conplex flow, similar to German I think. Most songs
therefore have to be unusually heavy on vocabulary and plot, Dostoevsky-style.
If you try to make lyrics simple it sounds awful.

------
dgudkov
As someone who grew up in Kiev and lived there most of his life before moving
across the ocean I find this article surprisingly precise in details and
having rather deep insight into the city's spirit. Of course, there is a bit
of idealization which is normal for any foreigner moving to a new place, but
many things are very true. Kiev is a very old city that has lived through many
epochs. It's seen the Mongol-Tatar invasion, dealt with Osman rulers, fought
the Russians with the Polish, the Polish with the Turks, and the Turks with
the Russians (historians, don't be nitpicky here). It survived the Russian
empire, both the world wars and the USSR. Having that rich history Kiev is
very eclectic, artsy and vibrant. And yes, it's a city of extremities. You can
see poor and rich, old and new, run down and prospering, past and future all
mixed up. But that's the spirit of the city. If you have never been to this
part of the world I highly recommend visiting it -- even if it's currently may
not be in its best shape as Ukraine is going through hard times. Staying there
for longer might require some survival skills most of which are required to
deal with extremely inefficient post-Soviet government system. The main skill
to get is networking, because it's the only way to deal with the corrupt and
bureaucratic government machine.

From a practical perspective, Ukraine is a good source of decent software
developers and designers. My project probably won't happen if I didn't have
our R&D team in Ukraine which allowed me to reduce development costs at least
twice. Sending payments to Ukraine would require going through a bit of hassle
with paperwork, but it's doable and Ukrainian developers usually know how to
deal with it. Feel free to drop me a line at <hn name> (a) easymorph.com if
you need some advice on it.

------
contingencies
The part about time is poetic: _A clock is referred to in the plural “часы”
(time), which identifies a clock through its action of measuring time as
opposed to the English word, which identifies it as a fixed tangible object._

FWIW here in China (where I see many Ukranians arriving recently) you have a
時鐘 ( _shi zhong_ ; "time bell/clock") or 鐘錶 ( _zhong biao_ ; "bell/clock
readout"), as well as variants such as 手錶 ( _shou biao_ ; "hand display").
Semantically these center around the character 鐘 ( _zhong_ ), which itself is
comprised of 金 (metal) to the left, and 童 (youth/innocence/servitude) to the
right. However, in history, 鐘 meant a bell (possibly specifically implying
ritual striking by servant). Interestingly, in abstract discussion of time as
a noun, the term becomes 時間 which literally means "time space" or "space in
time".

~~~
anthonybsd
"часы" is not Ukrainian at all though, it's a Russian word. Ukrainian doesn't
even have that letter.

~~~
ssambros
It's "годинник" in Ukrainian and its meaning is a fixed tangible object,
something close to '(hours)er'. Russian word "часы", in Ukrainian spelled
"часи", means "times" as in 'the old times'.

~~~
anthonybsd
But that's my point. Russian часы has completely different meaning from
Ukrainian часи.

------
ivm
I lived in Kyiv for more than a year and watched both revolution and Russian
invasion.

It was never about "soft power" influence the author and other media usually
talk but about a lot of people being tired of poverty, corruption, and power
abuse.

It was never about "American government winning hearts" but about Russian
government sending caskets to Ukrainian families. I saw many neutral folks who
became pro-West because of the attack on their homeland.

~~~
tqkxzugoaupvwqr
Pro-West media always spoke of a forceful annexation of Crimea by Russia while
anti-West media always spoke of voluntary annexation (Crimea people voted to
join Russia). What is correct in your opinion? There is so much spin from both
sides I cannot tell which side is lying less.

~~~
free652
Both. Russian forces occupied it, but Crimea's population is over 60% Russian.
While the exact referendum poll numbers could have been fabricated (95% for),
most of the polls after the referendum showed 80+% support.

~~~
wcummings
Could have been? C'mon, nothing gets 95% of the vote, no matter how
uncontroversial.

~~~
free652
Its actually believable, since it was occupied it's fair to assume that pro-
Ukrainians would be afraid to vote.

~~~
geoka9
It was actually 100% because both of the questions asked at the referendum
meant secession from Ukraine; i.e. it wasn't a simple "yes" or "no", it was
essentially "secede immediately" or "do it a bit later".

------
yhavr
I'm Kievian who recently moved abroad. Kiev is cool as long as you don't
interact with our corrupted government, justice and healthcare, as long as you
don't work for the local market (which is undeveloped and lacks of money), as
long as you move by uber/taxis/own car, not the local marshrutkas, etc. Kiev
is cool if you have money. But only because the majority of people don't have
it :-) For example, if you want to bootstrap your micropreneur venture or work
remotely/freelancing, it's a choice. You're able to live like a king and spend
less than 2000$/month. Yeah, the rent cost in the bay area = awesome life in
the Western Europe.

------
kofejnik
Welcome to our glorious city and I'm very glad to see my home on the front
page! Also, feel free to reach me (dy at deepmagic dot io) if you need Kiev-
related help (or maybe programming help, as well)

------
epberry
Wow... inspiring. Makes me want to visit Eastern Europe, an urge that has been
almost subconsciously repressed through years of Western education and culture
(e.g. Ukraine, Georgia, etc. being referred to as "2nd world").

~~~
gravypod
I don't think that's propaganda undeserving of some of the Eastern block
countries. I asked my grandma if she'd ever want to go back to Russia with me
to visit it one last time and she said something along the lines of "Death is
the option I'd take before anyone dragged me back there".

A lot of Iron Curtain people had a bad experiance and it's still a hot-bed of
corruption but as many other things these countries being "good" or "bad"
isn't black and white. They all have amazing culture, architecture, history,
and people but they are "different" from western places.

I only know what I have been told from my grandparents and from friends who
have the money to travel. I don't mind what I've heard but it's really up to
one's self to make such a choice.

~~~
geoka9
I wouldn't go to Russia either, but Kyiv is a great place to visit. I also
recommend Lviv while you're at it - one of the most charming European towns
I've ever seen.

And of course Georgia: it's very easy to fly from Kyiv to Tbilisi or Kutaisi.
But beware: you go there once, you'll want to come back for the rest of your
life ;)

------
tomcam
Dying to res it but I just get a Hostgator error

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tossingaway
The OP has barely hinted at one big benefit to Kiev if you're a young, single,
heterosexual male. As much as the Bay Area is misery for meeting and dating
women, Kiev is joy. In fact, the Ukraine in general.

This is partly due to the male to female ratio (Ukraine = good for men, Bay
Area = dismal) and partly cultural difference. Also, the status of being a
developer or engineer in the Ukraine makes you a 1 percenter; in the U.S., a
developer is nothing special, even considered boring.

The typical single male in the Bay Area probably doesn't even realize how bad
he has it, or how much better it could be in a different place, because his
life experience is based on dating in that one location.

Go there and experience it for yourself. Take a 3-month sabbatical from your
work, learn a bit of Russian or Ukrainian (this will help a lot!), rent a
flat, and talk to women at every opportunity. You'll find it surprisingly easy
to meet and date beautiful women.

~~~
brenschluss
Are you kidding me? This comment is so laughable. No wonder people talk about
the tech industry as being male-dominated and full of rampant sexism.

~~~
legostormtroopr
How exactly is this even remotely sexist? There is pretty solid data on the
fact that the Bay Area has far more men than women. Dating is (to an extent) a
numbers game - if there are 100 men in an area and 80 women in an area, all
straight and all looking for love, then 20 men are going to be single. Also,
being a developer in San Francisco one of the most common jobs.

This kind of knee-jerk, virtue-signalling comment is what has devalued the
word "sexist".

[0] [http://visualizing.nyc/bay-area-zip-codes-singles-
map/](http://visualizing.nyc/bay-area-zip-codes-singles-map/)

