
What makes Germans so orderly? - ErnstByner21
http://www.bbc.com/travel/story/20200531-what-makes-germans-so-orderly
======
kumarvvr
I thought Japan was _the_ most orderly place ever.

The most clean, orderly, mindnumbingly elegant country ever.

Their literature and media, though, is a complete contrast.

Their TV shows are loud (visually), with many overlays, graphics, transitions,
etc. Their print media is the poster boy for chaos. Their information density
is so huge, I wonder if anyone even reads 10% of what is on the page.

edit: I guess the insane information density in their language and printed
media is perhaps an outcome of obsession with conciseness.

~~~
bitwize
Japanese people, operating according to their culture's very stringent rules
of etiquette, are so demure and polite at work and in public that it stresses
them out. They need a release and a chance to go nuts. That release seeps
through in places like their anime, game shows, and the behavior of bar
patrons on a Friday night.

As for Japanese print media -- there seems to be a prevailing culture of space
economy. Maybe paper was expensive to get/import at one time and that had a
lasting effect on how Japanese laid out printed matter. It's bled through to
their web sites too, which are very dense and "busy" compared to Western web
sites, in which the trend seems to be to make a statement with white space to
the detriment of available space for text.

~~~
rurban
Germany has a similar concept in Winter, it's called Fasching. From 11.11 on
everything absurd and stupid is allowed. But different to Japan it's not much
needed anymore. Germany is an extremely liberal country now (after WW1) and
Japan still one of the most illiberal and strict. It got a big better in the
90ies in the labor market, but it's still extreme.

~~~
java-man
surely, you meant WWII?

~~~
rurban
No, WW1 explicitly. The society totally opened up after, with all its social
reforms.

Even if military pressed for "total war" (ie civilian support as in the USA),
society largely liberalized in the golden 20ies. And if you look at culture,
the 20-40ies were THE golden age. (much more golden than the 60/70ies)

~~~
hiram112
This is quite an interesting perspective. What I've read on more 'right'
leaning sites, is that post-WW1 Weimar became so 'degenerate', it directly led
to support for the Nazi party. Had it not gone so liberal, it's unlikely
Germans would have supported such an authoritarian regime.

~~~
rurban
IMHO the nazis won their support in the end by two major events. The French
occupying the Ruhr area, and Black Friday, with extreme unemployment. And of
course US money backing the Nazis and the German war industry to fight
communism. Communism was the major threat to fight. The US still has this same
mindset.

The Nazi party were not thought to be so authoritarian really, more a fresh
new modern party solving a lot of problems. The military and some other
parties were more authoritarian. Just the SA and SS were considered a problem.
Before, the right and left had their own private armies also, and there were
constant street fights. Nazis were softer than the military in the total war
efforts. (before 33 of course, but even until 43 it was only military
penalizing the famous Treachery Act, which came directly from WW1 stab-in-the-
back myth). Antisemitism was extremely widespread because of the Black Friday
crash.

------
hprotagonist
_Now, in Germany, on the other hand, trouble is to be had for the asking.
There are many things in Germany that you must not do that are quite easy to
do. To any young Englishman yearning to get himself into a scrape, and finding
himself hampered in his own country, I would advise a single ticket to
Germany; a return, lasting as it does only a month, might prove a waste.

In the Police Guide of the Fatherland he will find set forth a list of the
things the doing of which will bring to him interest and excitement. In
Germany you must not hang your bed out of window. He might begin with that. By
waving his bed out of window he could get into trouble before he had his
breakfast. At home he might hang himself out of window, and nobody would mind
much, provided he did not obstruct anybody’s ancient lights or break away and
injure any passer underneath.

In Germany you must not wear fancy dress in the streets. A Highlander of my
acquaintance who came to pass the winter in Dresden spent the first few days
of his residence there in arguing this question with the Saxon Government.
They asked him what he was doing in those clothes. He was not an amiable man.
He answered, he was wearing them. They asked him why he was wearing them. He
replied, to keep himself warm. They told him frankly that they did not believe
him, and sent him back to his lodgings in a closed landau. The personal
testimony of the English Minister was necessary to assure the authorities that
the Highland garb was the customary dress of many respectable, law-abiding
British subjects. They accepted the statement, as diplomatically bound, but
retain their private opinion to this day. The English tourist they have grown
accustomed to; but a Leicestershire gentleman, invited to hunt with some
German officers, on appearing outside his hotel, was promptly marched off,
horse and all, to explain his frivolity at the police court._

From "Three Men On The Bummel", the semisequel to "three men on a boat", 1914.

[https://www.gutenberg.org/files/2183/2183-h/2183-h.htm](https://www.gutenberg.org/files/2183/2183-h/2183-h.htm)

~~~
TMWNN
>In the Police Guide of the Fatherland he will find set forth a list of the
things the doing of which will bring to him interest and excitement.

FDR as a youth was arrested four times in one day while in the Black Forest.

------
est31
Switzerland is even more orderly. As a German, if you travel to Switzerland
you feel like people from other nations feel when they come to Germany.
Especially far more cleaner.

~~~
throw0101a
Where does Japan fall on this spectrum?

~~~
wenc
I've been to Germany and Japan many times, and my impression is that while the
Germans tend toward orderliness (rule-abiding), the Japanese tend toward
perfectionism (details).

As a foreigner, it was fascinating to observe how systems in each country
manifest these attributes.

From what I observed (and I could be all wrong here), Germans have
"opinionated" systems where everybody understands and follows the rules, even
if sometimes the system itself doesn't always make sense. Deviation is not
well tolerated (except perhaps in bohemian places like Berlin -- or that's
what I've been told).

The Japanese tend to have systems that assiduously accommodates humans. They
drive compliance through coaxing rather than coercion. The systems tolerates,
even accounts for, deviations from the norm. It's like they've thought of
everything, and try to make things as convenient as possible.

These differences are obvious when comparing trains/subways in Germany and
Japan.

German and Japanese cars also exhibit this difference. German cars generally
have opinionated designs (the opinion of the designer trumps the opinions of
the users). They're fun to drive but generally require the owners to follow a
strict maintenance schedule without deviation, otherwise the car will fail
prematurely.

Japanese cars on the other hand are often designed for owner negligence and
can accommodate all kinds of abuse while still continuing to chug along
(especially Toyotas), contributing to the notion that Japanese cars are super
reliable, when in fact they're simply designed for variation.

~~~
tasogare
> The Japanese tend to have systems that assiduously accommodates humans.
> [...] The systems tolerates, even accounts for, deviations from the norm.

That’s totally untrue. The systems here don’t allow for any, even the
slightest, deviation. If that means crushing a life, well, that life will be
crushed.

Personal anecdote: I was registered at the university and had to change my
status. I had to submit a complete application (despite my data already being
somewhere in their system). I was missing certified copy of my master degree.
I had the original one but they wouldn’t make copies themselves (impossible to
forge) because there was nothing about it in rulebook. Finally I was able the
register thanks to a paper certifying I passed a master degree in another
totally unrelated field! Hopefully the rulebook didn’t state that the master
degree one graduated from had to do anything with the PhD one is entering!
This whole story is wrong on so many level. I was lucky this time, but that’s
not always the case for everyone.

~~~
9nGQluzmnq3M
As usual, reality is somewhere between these two extremes. I'll posit a
halfway: Japanese life is indeed bound by strictly observed rules and
regulations divorced from common sense, but Japanese bureaucrats tend to also
know how to navigate these thickets to get stuff done.

One thing I've often seen in Japanese offices is the "form to the form",
instructing applicants in extreme detail how to fill out the actual form, so
it will be accepted on the first try.

~~~
qohen
I happened to recently read this blog post [0] by Patrick MacKenzie's (i.e.
HN's own patio11) which, among other things, covers some of his early time in
Japan. Part of it shows how things can work out -- towards the end, he relates
how he wanted to get a credit card but he couldn't -- there was an official
reason but, unofficially, because he was a foreigner. But then a co-worker put
him in touch with a bank manager he'd gone to school with who took care of him
and kept up a connection with him for an extended period of time (the story,
and the stuff that follows, is interesting, as is the whole blog post, for
that matter, if you're interested in how business and startups work in Japan,
at least as of 2014).

[https://www.kalzumeus.com/2014/11/07/doing-business-in-
japan...](https://www.kalzumeus.com/2014/11/07/doing-business-in-japan/)

------
marenkay
This article is quite far off from reality. Germany does have many rules and
regulations and looks like citizens want law and order.

The reality is quite different: Germans want others to behave in order, and as
soon as you stop looking at them or they feel like not being watched, they
will be the first ones to break laws and order.

But it is nice to know that marketing works.

~~~
jlelse
So true! It's quite visible during Corona restrictions..

------
rayiner
Recently I’ve been traveling to Germany and Japan for business. My return
flights are through New York. My chest actually tightens when I get off the
plane at La Guardia.

~~~
pravda
You have my sympathy! But how do you end up at LGA?

The La Guardia perimeter rule prohibits nonstop flights to or from points
beyond 1,500 miles.

All international traffic goes via JFK.

~~~
rayiner
So for Germany I do in fact go through JFK. But for Japan I have a hard time
with such a long direct so I look specifically for a flight with a domestic
connection. (Those flights are also often cheaper when booking last minute.)

------
eigenvector
The first example in the article isn't particularly insightful, since America
also has train quiet cars that are somewhat notorious for how seriously
they're taken.

[https://fortune.com/2014/09/17/amtrak-quiet-
car/](https://fortune.com/2014/09/17/amtrak-quiet-car/)

------
aj-4
I found Finland to be incredibly orderly and utopic as well.

~~~
Mediterraneo10
Dystopic for some. I studied in Finland and learned Finnish. I could have
settled down there after uni, but I didn't. It is a perfect country if you can
accept an ordinary working life with your 6 weeks of holiday per year, but it
is almost as if people are intentionally prevented from bohemianism by the
high cost of living and the insistence on long-term flat rental contracts. It
is very rare to meet Finns who spend half of the year working and half of the
year traveling. I returned to Eastern Europe and in spite of the lower
salaries here, I feel like I can achieve a much better work/life balance than
in Finland.

Do you like delicious artisanal beers or aged whiskies from around the world?
Tough luck, alcohol in Finland is sold only by a state monopoly that chooses
only a narrow range of products to offer and with very high taxes to
discourage purchase (because historically Nordic males imbibed large quanties
of pure liquor).

~~~
aj-4
no, if bohemianism and cheap beer are your priorities I don't imagine it would
be.

as far as a place to raise a family, be a part of a community, general quality
of life, it fits.

if it was always summer there, i'd be there no question.

~~~
Mediterraneo10
You mention cheap beer, but you can actually get that in Finland. Lapin Kulta
or Karhu, available from supermarkets because they are under whatever alcohol
limit, are very cheap. On any weekend night you can see people young and old
in city streets getting drunk on this (or on something brought over from
Estonia). I was actually shocked the first time I saw all this public
drunkenness; it did not live up to Finland's reputation for order. No, I meant
good beer for degustation purposes being available and at an affordable price.

That Finland is a good place to raise a family has its dark side. Every time I
go back to Finland I am annoyed by children being allowed in places they
wouldn't be tolerated in other countries. The fancy new Helsinki central
library gives adult patrons no barriers against all the noise from the
children's section.

But as for "being part of a community", there is a big problem with loneliness
in Finland. There are few opportunities to truly connect with other people
after uni or the army. Religious observance is extremely low in Finland now,
but apparently nothing ever replaced the parish church as a hub to actually
interact with your local community. Few people living in blocks know their
neighbours, and many feel that it would be a faux pas to even speak to those
neighbours.

------
dang
This is actually a rather good article, considering the nightmare it could be.

------
iwangulenko
It always depends from which perspective you're looking at things; compared to
the Swiss the Germans are rather chaotic and nothing works there.

(Grew up in Germany and now live since ~5 years in Switzerland)

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findyoucef
I spent a little more than two in Berlin last year. I didn't find Germany
particularly orderly. Spend an evening in Tegel airport and see what I mean.

~~~
goatinaboat
_spent a little more than two in Berlin last year. I didn 't find Germany
particularly orderly_

Berlin is a sort of internal exile colony for those who reject or are rejected
by the German lifestyle but don’t for whatever reason want to leave Germany

~~~
kamyarg
The reason they don't want to leave Germany is Berlin is only place they can
find people like themselves.

There is a reason Berlin is famous for leaving work at 6 pm on a Friday, going
to a club, and exiting only at 4am next Monday to go back to work.

Not saying this is good/healthy thing, but Berlin has history of being the
hotspot for misfits. That is why a lot of Germans or even Europeans move here.

------
badrabbit
Cultural psyche is a curious subject. I would absolutley feel suffocated in
Germany. I think what a society blieves the individual's role in society is
and what the purpose of life is factors into it. National pride too perhaps?

~~~
488643689
I am living in Germany. Most people I know are very happy to live and/or have
German citizenship. Most people I know here do care for the collective, want
to improve things (or rather fantasize about it). Why do you need to dumb this
down into nationalism/patriotism, inviting all the hostility towards others as
it always has?

Germany is rich and shares the wealth quite a bit with its people, the amount
of suffering and existential threat is low compared to most other countries.
For some people the lack of purpose, selfefficacy and the overwhelming
complexity of the modern world is becoming a problem... Maybe we do need some
national identity to fill that gap. Maybe around the Grundgesetz and
solidarity. Either way patriotism/nationalism doesn't help there since, the
"WhatsApp" idiots are happening everywhere.

~~~
badrabbit
Sorry, I forgot some people see nationalism as a bad thing. Why would you be
offended by that. I would be very proud of my country if I was german.Like you
said you care for the collective as a nation. In the US most people care for
their "tribe" at most when they see themselves as a collective. I was
contrasting with that, I know that even with immigrants Germany is very open
but expects them to assimilate and become proper German. In the US whatever
your native culture is you bring it with you and to the most part that's it,
we don't even have a national language or ID.

Again, I think my wording has caused a misunderstanding and I do apologize.

Also,I don't know what the "whatsapp" people are.

~~~
488643689
Most people I know see nationality as the low hanging fruit of identities. You
did nothing, no achievement, no struggle, you feast on other people's work. As
I said people here tend to be grateful to be born or at least live in such a
rich and somewhat sane country. I may be proud of actions done by the larger
collective, but "being proud of the nation"... Does this include all the wars,
weapon exports, economic extortions, environmental crimes, racism, ... ?
Nationalism is blind on one eye and flirts with exclusion with the other. It's
the feeling of agency for those fearing complexity and diversity.

Europe also is different than the US in terms of borders: they changed all the
time. They are obviously artificial constructs.

I asked you what good does nationalism serve? Don't you see the inherent
danger at all?

In Germany all the right wing/covid19 conspiracy/... Bullshit is spread in
WhatsApp groups. I think it's more important than Facebook for spreading "hate
over facts".

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bobosha
q: why are crime rates so low in Germany?

a: because it's against the law.

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FreekNortier
Genetics

