
Intestinal bacteria may influence our moods - drjohnson
http://www.cbc.ca/news/gut-feeling-how-intestinal-bacteria-may-influence-our-moods-1.2701037
======
jmhain
Be very careful with probiotics; just loading your system with random strains
of bacteria from your local health food store can have serious consequences. I
have IBS and an anxiety disorder that had been in remission for years. I tried
Primadophilus Optima and it wrecked me. I went from a mild IBS-C to severe
IBS-D, and my panic attacks came back with an intensity unlike anything I've
ever experienced.

I don't doubt that intestinal bacteria are related to IBS and anxiety
disorders and that certain probiotic treatments may help. But such
supplementation should be based on detailed research of each of the strains
taken, much of which does not even exist yet.

~~~
erichmond
IBS seems like the doctors way of saying "We don't know what your problem is".

Doctors told me I had IBS for 10 years, then a friend suggested to stop eating
wheat, and 95% of my symptoms went away.

I'm actually about to start testing a FODMAP diet to see if I can improve my
health any further.

Have you tried anything to improve your health, or did you just accept the IBS
diagnosis? I only ask because I've seen no research that suggests IBS is a
real thing, just a catch-all for many potential things.

~~~
jmhain
I've tried eliminating wheat, sugar (in case it was fructose malabsorption),
dairy, etc. I've tried tons of supplements like fish oil or vitamin D.
Interestingly, each of those except dairy had very positive effects on my
health in general (weight loss, clearer skin, elimination of seasonal
depression) but had little effect on IBS symptoms.

What did improve it (but not eliminate it) was taking an SSRI, which isn't
surprising since they have been shown to help in trials. My mother also has
both IBS and an anxiety disorder, which is consistent with research showing
that there is a genetic factor. I wouldn't be surprised if there are multiple
possible underlying causes, but I really think IBS is a legitimate diagnosis.

~~~
ar4s
Have you considered doing a fecal transplant?

~~~
jmhain
I'm willing to try anything safe and shown to be effective scientifically.
However, at the moment I have poor health insurance and little disposable
income, and my GI doc wants me to do a CT scan that would cost me $1600 out of
pocket to rule out IBD and a few other things before continuing. So basically
I've hit a brick wall for the time being.

------
afarrell
Popular media reporting on complex scientific/technical/legal/etc topics
should always be viewed with suspicion. Googling for the researchers' and
journals' names produced the following:

Dr. Mayer's study about women's responses to facial expressions.
[http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23474283](http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23474283)

Elaine Hsiao's study about certain autistic behaviors in mice.
[http://www.cell.com/abstract/S0092-8674(13)01473-6](http://www.cell.com/abstract/S0092-8674\(13\)01473-6)

Here on HN, we should favor articles that link to the original sources so that
the domain experts among us have an easier time digging into the claims. For
example, NPR's reporting at
[http://www.npr.org/blogs/health/2013/11/18/244526773/gut-
bac...](http://www.npr.org/blogs/health/2013/11/18/244526773/gut-bacteria-
might-guide-the-workings-of-our-minds)

~~~
jonas_b
No expert on the topic, though it really interests me. Have been drinking EM
([http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Effective_microorganism](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Effective_microorganism))
every day for the past 6 months which has improved my digestion a lot.

Thought this comment on the NPR article was really insightful:

There's so much more to developing a healthy microbiome than just eating
yogurt and drinking kombucha, as many people like to claim. It starts at
birth. As you travel through the birth canal, you come into contact with many
different and important microorganisms through contact with your mother's
vaginal fluids and even fecal matter. If you're born via C section, you're
starting out at a disadvantage. Then breastfeeding is the next step. Mother's
milk is where you get your next dose of a very broad spectrum of
microorganisms. Then throughout life, as you come in contact with other
people, you eat dirt, you hang around farm animals, etc, these are all mother
nature's way of helping you develop that microbiome, which is essentially the
core of your immune system. Eating is important too, and one of the biggest
problems with our modern food system is that everything is pasteurized, cooked
all the way through, sterilized, irradiated, etc. All of the healthy
microorganisms that used to exist are being killed.

So the point here is that people need to rethink many of their lifestyle
choices if they want to heal their guts. Every time you take an antibiotic,
you likely suffer much collateral damage because you may be permanently
killing beneficial species that you may never be exposed to again. They don't
exist in yogurt or kombucha. Either that, or consider fecal bacteriotherapy
(fecal transplants) since it seems to be one of the the most promising new
approaches to healing microbiomes. ~Julie Latham

~~~
druiid
Totally non-scientific response to this, but I can say that after having to
take antibiotics a few years back for a pretty bad sinus infection my
digestive system has never completely recovered. I never had any sort of
digestive issues that I can think of but have had numerous since then. I can't
directly contribute it to the antibiotics, but it certainly seems to
correlate.

Taking probiotics helped quite a bit, which I did a month or so after the
antibiotics started causing these issues, but yeah, never completely felt
'better' since then. I guess this is yet another example of why/how over
prescription of antibiotics is a bad thing.

------
curiousDog
I must agree with this. I've been suffering from IBS for a while now. Anytime
I have a flare up, I most certainly have severe anxiety (and it's not just
anxiety of having to deal with the flare up. Anxiety symptoms like chest pain,
shortness of breath, weakness just show up). I've tried a few probiotics but
didn't see any noticeable difference though.

~~~
spingsprong
I'm just asking, but is there any chance the connection is the reverse?

Stress and anxiety can cause digestive symptoms.

~~~
bdamm
The interesting part is that even if that's the case, treating the digestive
symptoms in an effective way could provide meaningful relief, cascading back
into the emotional state that caused the initial problem.

I've had it described to me in the following way; stress creates physical
manifestations of that stress, those physical manifestations create
discomfort, that discomfort creates stress. The feedback loop, once in place,
can accelerate the anxiety. It can also be used to shut the anxiety down. It
is possible to focus on the physical manifestations and "cut the strings" of
the cycle by relieving those symptoms through meditation and treatment. You're
left with the original stressor, but the feedback cycle doesn't help you get
better as long as it is active.

~~~
cpncrunch
So essentially changing diet is partly (or mostly) a placebo effect. IMO it is
better to understand the causes of IBS/anxiety/stress and make changes to your
lifestyle that address the root cause, rather than believing dubious science
about gluten. (I'm not saying that you personally believe this crap science,
but there are a lot of people out there who do). That has certainly worked
well for me. I still do have IBS on occasion, but after doing some research
into the HPA axis and ANS (and how the control gastric emptying, colonic
transit and absorption) I now understand exactly why I have the symptoms, and
they are very manageable. I don't have CFS, burnout, fatigue, anxiety or
depression any more, but mild IBS seems to be a fact of life. Working for
myself at home certainly helps a lot.

~~~
gouggoug
> So essentially changing diet is partly (or mostly) a placebo effect. IMO it
> is better to understand the causes of IBS/anxiety/stress and make changes to
> your lifestyle that address the root cause, rather than believing dubious
> science about gluten.

That sounds very much like the approach a software/hardware engineer would
have towards a bug. And it's great!

However, I'd say that the human body can't really be approached that way
because of its, very much, inconstant nature (at least until we've figured out
100% how our bodies function).

In the current state of knowledge human kind has about biology, it would be
very hard to pin-point a "bug" (IBS/stress/anxiety for example) to a specific
root cause (bacteria x or y). On the opposite end, a software bug ultimately
has one (or multiple) very much identifiable root causes.

All that to say that, it might not be possible to understand the causes of
IBS/anxiety/stress, and thus, treating the symptoms might actually be the
cure. (who knows, maybe treating a "biological bug" fixes the actual bug?)

It's also a chicken and egg problem: which started first? IBS or
stress/anxiety?

~~~
cpncrunch
Yes, it's a little more difficult pinning down problems with the human body
than in a piece of code, and these kind of functional problems even seem to
have stumped most of the medical profession. However I see it as an
engineering challenge. Essentially you are looking at a complex system and
trying to solve a problem in a piece of machinery that you don't have any
information about. Sometimes working around bugs in android or iOS can involve
similar detective work.

In terms of IBS, there is very little doubt that in my own situation that
stress causes the IBS rather than the other way around. Diarrhea during the
week, followed by constipation during weekends. Or diarrhea preceeding before
a novel event. These are repeatable and predictable - it just requires taking
a close look at your situation and seeing if you can see any correlations.
Unfortunately it can be easy to get fooled into seeing correlations that don't
exist.

------
iLoch
I wonder if there's a strong correlation between those who suffer IBS and
people working in this industry. Seems to me like the mentality to continually
push forward and overwork/stress ourselves can only contribute to poorer
health both mentally and physically. Personally I suffer from.. Hmm, I'd say
IBS-D based on the classifications mentioned here, although my symptoms are
fairly mild (however, very consistent - ~5 years and counting..) save for a
few more painful symptoms every now and again. There was an article on here
last week talking about the strong correlation between our guts and our brain
as well. These articles seem to gain a lot of popularity here on HN, which
makes me think that this problem is more wide spread than it appears (perhaps
just amongst HNers)

I'll report that I too have personally experienced a strong link between my
gut and my mental state (I occasionally suffer mild panic attacks). I'm tired
of having bowel problems - if anyone has any suggestions that have worked for
them I'm open to hearing them (and I'm sure there's plenty of people reading
who too are looking for suggestions). I've been working on removing wheat from
my diet - I can't speak to the effectiveness yet as I've only just begun.

~~~
Paul_Dessert
Good point. I'd be interested in knowing as well.

I stopped drinking sodas, alcohol and milk. That helped a lot. I also
physically moved and started working from home. This combination has almost
stopped the symptoms.

It seems like a combination of my diet, stress and overworking are the biggest
factors for me.

------
snarfy
My anecdotal evidence suggests the probiotics that fix your pooping problems
fix your mood too. If they make your poop worse, your mood will suffer as
well.

~~~
jhvh1134
Constipation has sometimes produced the bloodiest scenes. My grandfather, who
died a centenarian, was Cromwell's apothecary; he has often told me that
Cromwell had not been to the toilet for a week when he had his king's head cut
off. - Voltaire

------
AdamFernandez
It's always interesting to think of humans as giant integrated microbiomes.
Our bacteria is part of who and what we are.

------
jessicarichman
Hi there, I'm CEO of uBiome. It's a really fascinating area and there are a
lot of interesting discoveries coming out. If you'd like to learn more about
your microbiome, check us out at www.ubiome.com.

~~~
joshu
Similarly, hypothesis like these were why I invested in uBiome.

------
MisterWebz
_Bacteria feed on nutrients we ingest with our food, and like people, bacteria
don 't use everything they eat. Whatever doesn't fuel their growth and
reproduction, the bacteria expel as waste.

That waste gets into the blood and probably into the brain, changing its
chemistry._

If this theory is correct, does it mean that a drastic change in diet might
change a person's behavior? I'm imagining a future where people match their
diet to their intestinal bacteria to increase or reduce the "waste" that gets
produced to achieve a desired mood or behavior.

~~~
bollockitis
> If this theory is correct, does it mean that a drastic change in diet might
> change a person's behavior? I'm imagining a future where people match their
> diet to their intestinal bacteria to increase or reduce the "waste" that
> gets produced to achieve a desired mood or behavior.

The concept is really not new. Diet has long been linked to mood and behavior
in traditional medicine. It wouldn't be a shocker to learn that some
traditional approaches to dietary therapy are actually effective, though
probably not for the reasons they proclaimed.

~~~
cracell
In fact the concept is very old (not to say anything about whether it's
correct or not).

"All Disease Begins in the Gut" ~ Hippocrates

------
aridiculous
It's interesting that your digestive system 'thinks'. I've always found the
Vagus nerve's role in satiety to be interesting. It's a big nerve from the
brain that extends directly down into the abdomen.
[http://neuroscience.uth.tmc.edu/s4/chapter04.html](http://neuroscience.uth.tmc.edu/s4/chapter04.html)

------
Paul_Dessert
Although I see a connection, I stopped taking this article seriously when I
read this sentence:

"Their study, published last year, was funded in part by Danone Research, a
division of multinational food company Danone."

~~~
bignaj
So? Danone makes yogurts with probiotics. I think they might be interested in
knowing if there is any value to a diet <=> mood connection. If you would take
your head out of the sand you'd know that lots of research is funded by
industry and that's not necessarily bad.

~~~
Paul_Dessert
Yeah, no conflict of interest whatsoever...

~~~
Panoramix
First of all, they acknowledged the conflict of interest.

Are you suggesting, based on zero evidence, that their findings were somehow
fabricated - a claim that if true would ruin the careers and lives of the
scientists at hand?

While not unthinkable, it is a type of conspiracy theory thought. Should you
have a problem with their methods, data acquisition, etc etc. then it would be
a completely different story, but to dismiss something based on some sort of
belief is very unscientific.

~~~
Paul_Dessert
I'm not arguing the science. It may be 100% correct. My issue the fact that a
corporation with a very big upside is funding the research. That's all.

Think about it.

~~~
oldmanjay
You'll have to do better than "think about it" if you want your reasons to
make sense outside of your own head.

~~~
Paul_Dessert
It's okay. I understand common sense isn't so common...

------
TheSpiceIsLife
The book 'Not All in the Mind'[1], published in 1976, is definitely worth a
read. It's been a while since I picked it up and my copy is in another state
while I'm away from work, but I remember it being very pertinent to this
conversation. (I'd write more about, but it's 01:00 where I am and I'm falling
asleep at the keyboard).

1\. [http://www.amazon.com/Not-All-Mind-Richard-
Mackarness/dp/033...](http://www.amazon.com/Not-All-Mind-Richard-
Mackarness/dp/0330245929)

------
outworlder
Having been diagnosed with probable IBS, I have noticed mood changes related
to the intestines. But I always linked it to impaired absorption of some
nutrient or another, but never with bacteria.

------
nazgulnarsil
Wanting to get a product rich in Resistant Starch out there is part of our
process motivation for MealSquares. We're presoaking our oat flour in an
acidic medium and then asking customers to refrigerate their MealSquares in
order to maximize the amount of RS formed by retrogradation.

Resistant starch is starch you can't digest but your gut bacteria can. It's
been shown to have a variety of health benefits.

------
renkai
But which came first, the intestinal issue or the mental health condition?
These studies seem to begin with an assumption that the physical ailment
arises first. What if it's not the case... What if that assumption is just the
opposite, and it's the mental health issue impacting the physical well-being?

------
popsomoa
If you're interested in the Bacteria-autism connection mentioned in the
article, here's a great talk by the researcher:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FWT_BLVOASI](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FWT_BLVOASI)
(The topic is "Mind Altering Microbes")

------
tokenadult
The newspaper article by a freelance journalist kindly submitted here proved
to be interesting to read all the way through, and prompted me to read all the
comments here posted before I saw the thread, and also to look up the
researchers mentioned in the article and the author of the article. There are
interesting ideas here, but this is very preliminary research, based on early
animal studies mentioned with human studies with very small n and a short time
frame. ("The researchers gave 12 healthy women fermented milk containing a
probiotic supplement made up of five different strains of bacteria thought to
have a positive effect on the intestines. The women drank the milk two times a
day over the course of four weeks. Another group of 11 women drank milk
without probiotics.")

It's quite a bit too early to tell if altering your personal dietary habits
will have any predictable long-term effects on your mood (the article title
says "may" after all) and especially what alterations in intestinal
microorganisms have what interaction with what other health outcomes.

So far, "modern life" appears to be good both for reducing mortality and
reducing morbidity, as life expectancy at age 40, at age 60, and at even
higher ages is still rising throughout the developed countries of the
world.[1] A variety of incremental changes over the last century have allowed
us all to enjoy longer, healthier lives than our ancestors a hundred years
ago, as reported in an article in a series on Slate, "Why Are You Not Dead
Yet? Life expectancy doubled in past 150 years. Here’s why."[2] If deeper
understanding of the health effects of intestinal microorganisms leads to even
more incremental improvement in disease prevention and treatment, and increase
in healthy lifespan, that would be great. So I heartily support research on
these topics. (I remember that the father of _Freakonomics_ co-author Steven
Levitt spent his career at my alma mater university studying intestinal gas
with federal grants--I'm not making this up.) But we can't be sure yet what
the recommended practice will be for how we eat or whether or not we should
have particular microorganisms put into our intestines.

Meanwhile we can be happy that ongoing medical research and perhaps other
factors we don't fully understand seem to be driving steady increases in
healthy lifespan. Girls born since 2000 in the developed world are more likely
than not to reach the age of 100, with boys likely to enjoy lifespans almost
as long. The article "The Biodemography of Human Ageing"[3] by James Vaupel,
originally published in the journal Nature in 2010, is a good current
reference on the subject. Vaupel is one of the leading scholars on the
demography of aging and how to adjust for time trends in life expectancy. His
striking finding is "Humans are living longer than ever before. In fact,
newborn children in high-income countries can expect to live to more than 100
years. Starting in the mid-1800s, human longevity has increased dramatically
and life expectancy is increasing by an average of six hours a day."[4]

[1]
[http://www.nature.com/scientificamerican/journal/v307/n3/box...](http://www.nature.com/scientificamerican/journal/v307/n3/box/scientificamerican0912-54_BX1.html)

[2]
[http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/science_of_...](http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/science_of_longevity/2013/09/life_expectancy_history_public_health_and_medical_advances_that_lead_to.html)

[3] [http://www.demographic-
challenge.com/files/downloads/2eb51e2...](http://www.demographic-
challenge.com/files/downloads/2eb51e2860ef54d218ce5ce19abe6a59/dc_biodemography_of_human_ageing_nature_2010_vaupel.pdf)

[4]
[http://www.prb.org/Journalists/Webcasts/2010/humanlongevity....](http://www.prb.org/Journalists/Webcasts/2010/humanlongevity.aspx)

------
xipho
Follow @phylogenomics, look at recent his recent rants. Almost certainly this
is correlation/causation bunk about the microbiome (in addition to the other
problems noted here).

------
agumonkey
It's not really surprising that intestine and heart systems have their own
state and impact on your whole self. I believe they came first in our design
history.

