
Want a Job in Silicon Valley? Keep Away from Coding Schools - JSeymourATL
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2016-12-06/want-a-job-in-silicon-valley-keep-away-from-coding-schools
======
burger_moon
I went to one and now a couple years in I'm working at one of the "big 4"
companies. It worked out for me but I still wouldn't recommend them to other
people. It only worked for me because it helped lay the groundwork but I put
in countless hours every night studying and getting better while working as
well.

Too many of my former classmates graduated and expected that to be the end of
the hard work, like they were now entitled to a good job and that they knew
enough. It was enough for a junior role but not at a huge company.

Also because of the negative stigma of having gone to one of these I scrubbed
it from my history as soon as I could. I don't bring it up in conversations
either. It only seems to do more harm than good because people will hear it
and look down on me. You only have to look at these discussions to see how
much vitriol people have against those of us that attended one.

~~~
carc
Funny, I have almost the exact same experience. Quit my job as a CPA at a big
firm to go to a coding bootcamp, made myself put in the same number of hours
coding/learning as I was working my old job (70+/week) until I found a job...
got a job at a startup first and 2 years later got a job at one of the "big
4".

I also don't list my bootcamp anywhere mostly because I'm worried about
assumptions people will make about my technical knowledge if I do (rather than
judging based on my actual performance). I'm also hesitant to recommend it to
others because while I have to say it was 100% worth it to me... I've tried to
help too many people learn to code who just failed because they weren't
willing to fight past the frustrations of the learning curve (which is very
steep at first). I just assume now that most people don't have what it takes
(and that is NOT intelligence or cleverness... it's mostly just
discipline/work ethic/intellectual curiosity).. so I'll never really encourage
people to follow my path.

~~~
dvdhnt
> Funny, I have almost the exact same experience.

I left the world of government contracting to attend a code school on the east
coast. Now, I'm on my second year of my second startup, and truthfully, I've
learned more here than at code school. Not because the school was terrible,
but due to the dynamic environment.

When I left code school, there's zero percent chance I could have successfully
deployed one of my applications containerized, secured, scalable, etc.
However, after working here, I either (a) know how to do step X or (b) can
successfully read documentation and use context clues (or ask peers for help).

To your point, I have trouble recommending code school to friends and family.
It's not that I don't value what I learned, but I can't compare my
intelligence/persistence/etc to theirs, I wouldn't know how. I haven't worked
for one of the "big 4" although I did interview with Google and am in
consistent contact with Amazon.

I've always wanted to get together with other code school graduates and
develop material for graduates focusing on different areas in more depth,
specifically I believe more information on databases, production environments,
and open source would be highly beneficial to alumni. After code school,
there's a lot of knowing about some topic, but it's so much more important to
understand that topic, IMHO.

------
Taylor_OD
Full disclosure: I work at a coding bootcamp.

This is a weird article. It's more focused on one bad school then the industry
as a whole. Everyone quoted in the article got a job as a software developer.
It seems the biggest issue is that expectations are not set correctly by most
schools. Some people find a job asap and some people take a lot longer.

This quote seems particularly shortsighted, “When people go to coder camp,
they’re never going to be part of the in crowd,” Dinan, the recruiter, said.
“There’s way more to success than just having the software education.”

As a former recruiter I cringe seeing this. Someone is NEVER going to be 'part
of the in crowd' because of their education? 1 year in? 3 years in? 5 years
in? 10 years in when they are in a management role they still will be an
outsider because they went to a coding camp?

~~~
dovdovdov
The only issues I see is that many coding schools give the fake illusion (god
forbid, advertise) that you are industry ready after a 3 month 'training'.

Sorry no, you are not.

~~~
zdragnar
Depends on which sector of the industry you're working in. I've participated
in the hiring process (technical interviewer) for several candidates from
bootcamps.

What they clearly lack in expertise (which can be learnt) they more than make
up for in intangible qualities of character- self-driven, hungry to learn,
motivated not only to do well, but to do better each time. Many come from
backgrounds that are also useful, but not commonly found in degreed programs,
such as former project managers, academic researchers, etc.

If you can afford the time and effort required to have a green developer on
your team, they can be some of the best hires you'll ever get.

With regard to your specific call out of 3 months, the one I'm familiar with
had something like 50-60 hour weeks. Most people were learning non-stop,
focused primarily on easy-access web tech such as html, css, front-end and
server-side JS, and mongodb. However, many of them also dabbled in a variety
of other languages on their own time, such as python, c, java, as well as
graph and SQL databases. They graduate coding bootcamps with more ready for
web development than many learn at more degreed programs.

It's entirely possible that that level of expertise simply isn't enough where
you work, and that's totally fine. But don't imagine that there isn't a place
for these people within the industry.

(For reference, I've been in the industry myself for 7 years, and have never
personally attended a bootcamp)

------
jc_811
_said one reason he chose the school was it said its instruction included a
software language called PHP. Halfway through the course, when he asked when
they would start learning PHP, he said he was told the school had scrapped
plans to teach it_

This right here I think is the biggest problem with coding bootcamps. Many
novices go in thinking that they need to learn a cool/new/useful language -
and then they will find a job in it (after all, the job boards rave about
experiences with specific languages).

However, learning how to code is _not_ learning a coding language. Learning a
language is almost secondary to learning underlying CS concepts. It's not as
sexy to say "learn algorithm design and garbage collection" no matter how
necessary it is.

I feel many students go into these bootcamps thinking that learning a language
and syntax is the most important software skill to have. However, when a
company has to decide between someone from a 3 month javascript bootcamp, or
someone with a CS degree - the decision is easy. We need to start preaching
that learning to code and building software skills is totally language
agnostic - and the underlying concepts are by far more important.

~~~
fnord123
>However, when a company has to decide between someone from a 3 month
javascript bootcamp, or someone with a CS degree

That really depends. Often, CS graduates know computer science and that's it.
Often having some programming skills as well as domain knowledge can be as
useful or even more useful depending on the maturity and positioning of the
projects in the team's portfolio.

To use a shitty analogy: you don't need (or even want) a team of Yngwies
busting out face melters. Sometimes the project just calls for three chords.

But yea, I'm with you in the sense that when I'm hiring for my team, I'm
hiring deeply technical people to shovel bits into the engines. But I
recognize that not all projects require it.

------
jimmywanger
I think the main thing for coding boot camps is twofold.

1) The good ones have high character requirements, as in they select for the
people who are self-driven and willing to put in the work. That self-selects
for success, especially since the most famous code academies have more
candidates than spots, which means they can be selective.

2) Simply by paying a large sum of money (10k+), which is generally a large
sum of money for the applicants, incentivizes the people to actually put in
effort to do the work and study. MIT gives away all of its courses free
online, and the pass rate is abysmal, precisely because it's free and the
entry cost is so low, that you feel as though you can walk away at any time.

I personally think that coding boot camp vs. a four year university education
is like learning how to cook in a chain restaurant vs. learning how to cook at
a culinary institute. You'll get the same basic (very basic) skills, such as
knowledge on how to chop a vegetable, how to debone a chicken, etc etc.
However the reasons for doing things and terminology in the kitchen you'll
have to learn by yourself.

Is going to college for four years worth it vs a 12 month boot camp? I don't
know, but I think it's naive to think that the knowledge imparted is the same
between the coding camp vs the four year degree.

------
mitchpron
If you're meant to be a programmer, you won’t give up. You will get
frustrated, but if you're determined, you'll keep trying. A bootcamp can't
give you that motivation.

Some low-cost coding lessons on Code School, Treehouse, NetTuts+, Udacity,
Pluralsight, or Launch Academy are also a good option, and they cost far less
than does a bootcamp. MooCs are also a good way to find out if you like
coding. If you're still coding on your own after a MooC, then you might be
interested enough.

Try building a new application every day. Jennifer Dewalt, the founder of
Zube, did this and blogged about it. With each new project, she added to her
portfolio and gained new skills. Quantity trumps quality when you’re learning.
Just build lots of things.

------
tannhauser23
Sensational title. Most of article is about one bootcamp, which seems
particularly badly run, and there are few comments from recruiters at large
companies like Google, Cisco, and Autodesk that say they don't really look at
bootcamp grads.

Full disclosure: I attended a bootcamp myself and I'm now working as a
software engineer. My bootcamp made it clear to us that their program most
qualifies us to be junior web developers. While some do get jobs at Google,
Amazon, etc. straight out, they often had other quantitative background to
make up for the lack of a formal CS education. The career services folks told
us that the Big 4 become more reachable after we've had couple years of
experience. Which is exactly what happened - I have friends who have ended up
at those large companies after working in startups for a few years.

Also, my bootcamp made it clear that our education cannot end with our
graduation. They established a clear timeline for us: for three months after
graduation, focus entirely on applying for jobs, practicing technical
interviews, building projects, and continuing to learn. And that's exactly
what we did. The bootcamp was a 9am to midnight experience, and most of us did
not slack after graduation: we continued to code and build things and learn
every single day, all while sending out resumes and practicing interviews. And
in the end, it paid off for most of us.

Still, there are many questionable bootcamps out there. For prospective
students, I would encourage them to meet with grads and talk about their
experience with the specific bootcamps that they attended. Look at the hiring
data - many offer audited reports now (and be careful of those that don't). Do
your due diligence before making an expensive commitment.

And for companies hiring, keep an open mind and talk to the bootcamp grads.
Learn about the differences between the schools too. It's right to be
skeptical, but bootcamp hires can also provide very good value to your
company.

------
z3t4
Learning basic computer science can be bad for productivity as you start to
worry about memory, bits and cycles. While its good to know for optimization,
high level programming is mostly about memorizing methods. Most high level
languages have a very good abstraction layer, so it's possible to be a very
good programmer without knowing the stack in depth. What I like about new
programmers, someone that switched from another profession, so they got a lot
of life and job experience, while being eager to learn. I'm dealing with
professionals every day do _do not_ want to learn, even if it would make them
more valuable and efficient.

------
40acres
So how would one go about getting a job in the Valley? I'm a dev w/ 3 years
experience. Google and Facebook reached out to me for interviews but I
couldn't pass the phone screen. I don't need a bootcamp, but I'm not exactly
sure how to prepare for a modern day technical interview.

PS. I don't aspire to work in the valley per se, but I've failed multiple
technical interviews with a variety of companies, if I ever want to earn
another job I feel like I'd have to learn how to work w the system.

~~~
subway
How do you go about getting a job anywhere else?

You research companies that share your values/goals, then start a conversation
with them.

~~~
40acres
Sorry if I wasnt clear, this is more about the interview process than
anything. I've been able to find some companies that seem to be a near perfect
fit, and they range from SV giants to smaller shops in between. It just feels
like I cannot pass the modern day technical interview and I'm looking for some
advice in that domain.

~~~
imakecomments
I recommend learning discrete mathematics, then data structures and
algorithms.

I cannot stress enough how important mathematical foundations is. It'll make
everything else much easier to learn. I haven't read the book but heard good
things about: [https://www.amazon.com/Discrete-Mathematics-Applications-
Sus...](https://www.amazon.com/Discrete-Mathematics-Applications-Susanna-
Epp/dp/0495391328) as a beginner text.

Coursera has multiple offerings on Data Structures / Algorithms -- find one
that works best for you.

For instance:

[https://www.coursera.org/learn/introduction-to-
algorithms](https://www.coursera.org/learn/introduction-to-algorithms)

[https://www.coursera.org/specializations/algorithms](https://www.coursera.org/specializations/algorithms)

[https://www.coursera.org/learn/algorithmic-
thinking-1](https://www.coursera.org/learn/algorithmic-thinking-1)

[https://www.coursera.org/learn/algorithmic-
toolbox](https://www.coursera.org/learn/algorithmic-toolbox)

By doing all of those you'll get a good introductory exposure to the topics.

You should also look at a rigorous course offering of Algorithms. MIT has a
few online to view.

Some readings for a beginner are:

[https://www.khanacademy.org/computing/computer-
science/algor...](https://www.khanacademy.org/computing/computer-
science/algorithms)

[https://www.amazon.com/Algorithms-Unlocked-Press-Thomas-
Corm...](https://www.amazon.com/Algorithms-Unlocked-Press-Thomas-
Cormen/dp/0262518805)

[https://www.amazon.com/Introduction-Algorithms-3rd-MIT-
Press...](https://www.amazon.com/Introduction-Algorithms-3rd-MIT-
Press/dp/0262033844/ref=pd_sbs_14_img_1?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=1B27XH2M0SZR2ZQ6RA91)
(not beginner level but classic)

After all of this you should be fine with diving into interview books. You'll
want to whiteboard solutions and be able to do all the difficult problems.
Look into sites like leetcode, glassdoor and be able to do the difficult
problems posted there.

~~~
40acres
Thanks, there are some good resources here. I rushed through CLRS to help
prepare for these interviews but I failed at the phonescreen, which was mostly
comprised of Leetcode / Hackerrank type questions. I'll definitely take a look
at the coursera course specialization but it seems as though these interviews
comprise of a 'programming challenge' type question for the phone screen and
more with a focus on data structures, algorithms and system design for the
onsite.

------
jchin
_To get it, he had to work there for months as an intern and overcome his
manager’s misgivings as he got up to speed._

Is that so bad? It doesn't seem unreasonable to me to intern for a few months
to demonstrate one's technical skills, after just 3 months of learning, are
good enough for the company. Furthermore, it allows the candidate to show off
some of the "intangible qualities of character" as described by another
commenter.

I am assuming, of course, that the internship is not exploitive and that the
company truly has the time and resources to mentor the intern. In the best
case scenario, the manager would see culture fit and a new motivated employee
who is open to growing into a great senior developer at the company. In the
worst case scenario, at least the intern should have gotten some real world
experience that can be leveraged into the next job.

I guess I'm taking issue with the tone of the sentence. Why wouldn't an
internship be "good enough" for a coding bootcamp grad? And why would they
have to fight a "manager's misgivings" since it would clearly cost the manager
even more time and effort to find and train yet another person for the
position. As the manager, it would be in my best interest to find an intern I
think capable of succeeding AND to do my best to help him/her succeed!

Disclosure: I've hired a coding bootcamp grad as an intern and then was very
glad to be able to promote him to full-time after a few months.

Edit: grammar

------
erroneousfunk
"Tuition averages over $11,000 at non-degree granting programs that generally
last around three months, but it can go as high as $21,000."

For comparison, I received a master's in software engineering from a reputable
school with actual professors and a well-tested curriculum for
~$7,500/semester. Of course, it was an academic graduate degree, so I already
needed to know a large amount of engineering and programming before applying,
but still -- there are a ton of avenues through 'traditional institutions'
that are far cheaper, and of higher quality that will teach you programming.

What are people paying for, exactly? Is it the speed that they'll learn at? If
you want a "bootcamp" experience, stack 5 classes at a local college and work
your ass off for a semester.

Perhaps easier said than done -- I live in the greater Boston area, where you
can't throw a rock without hitting prestigious institutions with professional
education options and night classes, or at least a good community college. So
perhaps it's the accessibility of the bootcamps? Do they serve areas where
education options aren't great? Do they do "online" better than other
programs?

Is it the branding? The teachers? Something else?

Is it that bootcamps offer a "hands on/practical" experience, where students
feel like academia would let them down? I'd disagree on that point, with some
reservations, but I don't think that my suggestion of "stacking 5 [well-
chosen] college classes" would let you down in that regard. Colleges teach the
theory, sure, but they ALSO teach practical application development,
especially these days.

So, I don't know. Honest question. What's the draw to bootcamps over other
forms of education?

~~~
1812Overture
On the other hand I know plenty of people with Computer Science degrees from
real universities who can't code their way out of a wet paper bag.

~~~
erroneousfunk
I'm not talking about a CS degree, or "computer science" classes, but
something more along the lines of engineering/software engineering.

Also, I think we can agree that there are people from all sorts of degrees,
bootcamps, certificate programs, and other assorted methods of education, who
can't code their way out of a wet paper bag.

------
sprkyco
For anyone that thinks that programming bootcamps are still worth considering.
Why not try a free one:
[https://www.freecodecamp.com/](https://www.freecodecamp.com/) Really great
student curated content!

------
HillaryBriss
i remember hearing about a coding school that was charging something close to
fifteen thousand dollars for a course on programming Android apps.

the company claimed to have some kind of special relationship with Google. but
the course curriculum was apparently homegrown from nothing. very little
actual input from Google.

and i remember wondering "what's the special understanding, the inside track,
the competitive edge that their students will have?" it didn't seem to exist
at all.

i mean, the company wasn't even making the curriculum up as it went along. it
was hiring outside freelancers to make it up as they went along. that was
their "program."

~~~
sfrailsdev
I think Udacity had a claim like that for a nano degree.

~~~
dmh2000
but not for $15K. maybe 2400 if you finish in a year doing it part time.

------
srebalaji
Why can't people learn from online courses provided by treehouse or codeschool
or udemy. There are cheaper when compared to coding bootcamps. Anyone care to
comment ?

~~~
serge2k
Some people find it easier to learn in a structured environment.

~~~
srebalaji
Structured environment ? Can you elaborate on this one ?

~~~
dmh2000
maybe a place you have to show up and be present for the training and there is
someone there with expectations that you have to fulfill. Vs being self-
motivated to work independently. In my case I have some personal projects and
a couple of online courses in progress but I usually find it easier to play
WoW instead. If I had to go to a physical class I wouldn't do that.

------
WhitneyLand
There seem to be only two benefits to coding schools:

1). It's structured. You plan to meet people to learn at certain times, so
it's easier than going it alone and being tempted to slack off.

2). You need some mentoring/personal guidance along the journey to make sure
you're on the right track.

These are helpful, but I don't see why you need to pay $10,000.

Organize a like minded group via meetup.com. Ask experienced people to
volunteer to help plan curriculum, to provide once a week mentoring sessions
(people will help for free).

And there you go, same thing but no debt.

Important: Be honest, do you really have some natural interest/drive to do
this? Really tough if you don't. Also it will take a lot of hours but if you
persevere you'll make it.

Also important: There is almost never snobbery about education or "in crowds".
Maybe what the author meant is that you will lose repect quickly if you're not
prepared. If you are prepared and a hard worker you'll be welcome even with a
GED.

------
WheelsAtLarge
The big issue is that students get the illusion that a boot camp is all that's
needed to get a 100k job. The reality is that it takes dedication that needs
to continue after the boot camp.

Long term programmers know that it takes a long time to get a true
understanding and mastering of the profession. Over the years I've known of
people who thought a short programming course would be enough to get into the
profession. I know I wouldn't pay a new programmer top salary much less one
from a 6 month boot camp. They are just not productive enough. But the reality
is that book camp is only the start. I wish they would understand that. No one
is a master from the start. My advise for them is to continue with their
training by creating a project either a brand new idea or just a copy of what
is available. This gives them a chance to be masters eventually.

------
milliner
Had the analogue of this experience at Maker's Academy in London, £8000 for a
12 week course, claims that you'll get £60,000 pa job within 3 months.

Lots of bullshit from the people running it as well, including talk of knowing
everyone in the London tech scene and its great reputation.

------
pinewurst
That's a long hard fall for Tony Fadell, from the pinnacle of autocratic
Googliness to doing promo videos for dodgy coding schools.

~~~
mmoroz
Nah, that one is a free school, funded as charity by a French billionaire. It
charges no fees or commission. It's been "promoted" (for free of course) by
many top silicon valley business people and engineers:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/42_(school)#Endorsement](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/42_\(school\)#Endorsement).
Check your facts before saying bad things about people.

