
Coke and Pepsi are getting sued for lying about recycling - ajaviaad
https://www.vice.com/en_asia/article/qjde3p/coke-and-pepsi-are-getting-sued-for-lying-about-recycling
======
srj
There needs to be regulation that standardizes on container materials and
shapes, optimizing for recyclability and ability to sort. Then there needs to
be a financial incentive to use packaging that offers the highest reclaimation
rates. I'm imagining something like the CAFE standards, encouraging ever
increasing rates.

I listened to a podcast with one of the former heads of the EPA and one of the
challenges is that the petroleum industry actively favors non-reuse so they
can keep selling more plastic.

Edit: Here's the podcast: [https://www.kcrw.com/news/shows/to-the-point/the-
high-cost-o...](https://www.kcrw.com/news/shows/to-the-point/the-high-cost-of-
cheap-plastics)

~~~
grecy
If we were actually serious about saving the planet, we'd just pass laws that
mandate companies _have_ to use certain specified bottles, and give them no
choice.

But of course, lobbying and profits are more important.

~~~
pmlnr
It's not _that_ simple. Recycling doesn't care about shape, just material, and
reusing has the problem of people putting random things in the bottle before
sending it off - including toxic and/or corrosive materials, thus making
reusing impossible.

~~~
grecy
Tons of countries throughout Latin America, Africa and Europe reuse large
glass bottles for soda and beer and whatever else.

The bottles are thoroughly cleaned and sterilized between uses.

It _is_ that simple. Make it a law, get on with it.

~~~
justanotherc
Not only does re-use take large amounts of water in the cleaning of
containers, but glass is orders or magnitude more expensive to ship product
in. You're shipping a ton of glass around when you could be using that weight
to ship product. It drives up cost and increases fuel burn.

It is _not_ that simple. Unfortunately.

~~~
ssivark
> _glass is orders or magnitude more expensive to ship product in_

That sounds like nonsense. For a filled ~300ml container of soda, a glass
bottle would be ~20% (ballpark) heavier than an aluminum can. Even if shipping
costs increased by a similar proportion (actually less, but whatever) and we
include the cost of cleaning bottles, it seems we would still end up ahead
compared to the song-and-dance of recycling, which is incredibly resource
intensive.

~~~
justanotherc
Not only weight, but due to the breakable nature of glass you also need more
protective packaging, and you _still_ get more breakage than plastic, which
drives cost up even more due to lost product.

With plastic, throw some shrinkwrap on them and you're good to go.

~~~
LadyCailin
I’m not concerned about price for non essential items like soft drinks. Having
a functioning ecosystem is far more important than whether or not you have to
pay an extra dollar for your coke.

------
overcast
I feel like the entire concept of recycling from the very beginning has been a
lie. Now we're all paying for what we thought was being handled properly.

Edit: Plastic recycling.

~~~
titanomachy
Aluminum recycling still makes economic sense, right?

~~~
dsfyu404ed
Pretty much anything that needs to come out of the ground in a form far less
concentrated (aka "ore") than the form in which it is useful is economically
recyclable because the product provides a more concentrated source of raw
material for making into new things than the natural deposits in the earth do.

That's basically a long winded way of saying most metals are cheaper to
recycle than to mine new.

~~~
redbeard0x0a
If I recall correctly, its like 5% of the energy to use aluminum scrap vs.
ore.

------
larrik
Overall, I think this is a good idea. a Lawsuit creates a financial incentive
to behave better. However,

> It’s likely that less than 5% of plastic produced today is getting recycled

I've seen this repeated elsewhere, but what I really want to know is the % of
plastics sent for recycling actually being recycled. Anything that wasn't
turned in for recycling just doesn't count here, in my opinion.

~~~
VBprogrammer
Recycling is such a farce. Anything where you have mixed streams going into
the recycling bin is quite likely to end up buried somewhere in a developing
country. Even when they are recycled they end up being turned into insulation
or some other secondary product.

Growing up in Scotland we had a recycling system which was great. Irn Bru
bottles were glass bottles with metal lids. The lid proudly announced that you
could get 20p back for returning it (in the form of credit towards other
purchases). The same trucks delivering stock took the empty bottles back to
the distribution centre when they were cleaned, inspected and reused.

~~~
monk_e_boy
Glass and metal are a nightmare on the beach and in parks. Plastic sucks bad,
but going back to glass isn't much better.

~~~
magduf
Glass is inert and doesn't break down; anyone can pick up glass bottles that
have been on the beach for decades, wash them out, and recycle them along with
new glass.

Metal degrades slowly if it's ferrous (iron/steel), but that isn't
environmentally harmful. And it can all be readily recycled.

~~~
paulmd
I think the implication was what if some jackass smashes the bottles and you
find them with your foot.

------
rconti
I wish this went into what the factors are that make these products not
recyclable. Contaminants attached to the product, I assume?

Siggi's yogurt containers (the large ones, at least) have a paper label and a
tab you can tear to completely remove the paper from the plastic so they can
be recycled properly. Which, of course, made me realize that probably nothing
ELSE with a label on it is recyclable in the way we think they are.

~~~
carterehsmith
So, I wonder about these cardboard/paper containers that e.g. juice, milk, etc
are being sold in. Are they biodegradable?

~~~
nikanj
Nope, they have a plastic lining on the inside to make them waterproof.

~~~
nitemice
Same is true of coffee cups, although there are a number of organizations (in
Aus, at least) now that have processes for separating the plastic from the
paper so it can be recycled.

E.g. [https://www.simplycups.com.au/how-it-
works](https://www.simplycups.com.au/how-it-works)

------
omegaworks
This may be exactly the way to make change happen here in America.
Corporations only understand the language of financial incentive. Coke and
Pepsi and all single-use manufacturers need to be responsible for the costs of
recycling the containers they create. In Germany, rulings and regulations in
this vein have increased the proportion of recycled products to over 66%[1].
If corporations have no economic incentive to create recyclable products, they
will act to externalize those costs as much as possible. With the worldwide
economies of scale that Coke and Pepsi can leverage, we enter into a self-
reinforcing plastic-industry sustaining death spiral.

1\.
[https://sustainabledevelopment.un.org/content/documents/dsd/...](https://sustainabledevelopment.un.org/content/documents/dsd/dsd_aofw_ni/ni_pdfs/NationalReports/germany/waste.pdf)
[pdf warning]

------
travisporter
May have been posted before, but I found it relevant that the "Georgia
Recycling Coalition" put a hard stop on the suggestion of a bottle tax to help
with recycling efforts.

“With the investment that Coke is getting ready to make in Atlanta and in
other major cities across the U.S. with this World Without Waste (campaign),
it is not going to be a part of that conversation.”

[https://www.wypr.org/post/investigation-digs-eco-
corruption-...](https://www.wypr.org/post/investigation-digs-eco-corruption-
local-recycling-programs-re-air)

------
lacker
It seems very strange to attack Coke and Pepsi for this. Shouldn't the target
be recycling programs that claim to be recycling plastic bottles, but actually
don't?

~~~
sp332
[https://www.earthisland.org/images/uploads/suits/2020-02-26_...](https://www.earthisland.org/images/uploads/suits/2020-02-26_Earth_Island_Complaint_FILED.PDF)

From the Table of Contents:

A. Defendants created the condition of plastic pollution, which is
extraordinarily harmful to humans, animals, and the environment. 22

B. As Defendants have known for decades, recycling by itself cannot prevent
plastic pollution from damaging oceans, waterways, and coasts 29

C. Defendants refuse to adopt more sustainable alternatives in order reap
higher profits resulting from using virgin plastic. 37

D. Defendants’ decades-long campaign of misinformation about their Products’
recyclability puts the cost of plastic pollution on consumers and public
entities. 39

~~~
thaumasiotes
Geez, only claim D even makes conceptual sense to try in court.

This suit is an awful idea.

~~~
Supermancho
While you may only be able to win on one count, you get discovery for all of
them. The idea is good, if your goal is to legally investigate.

~~~
thaumasiotes
> While you may only be able to win on one count, you get discovery for all of
> them.

Even if the court decides that you haven't stated a justiciable claim?

------
titanomachy
It seems like this problem has only been allowed to get so bad because it's a
silent failure. We throw things in the recycling, and without any feedback we
assume they are recycled.

The failure should be pushed up the chain, at least to the consumer. The rules
on what can be recycled should be realistic and consistently enforced, then
people can make more informed choices (up to and including pushing for
regulation on manufacturers).

~~~
lm28469
That's the whole point of recycling, feeling good about ourselves. In reality
the vast majority of the shit we throw away end up in open sky dump in Africa
or China, but hey, I paid 80ct of "eco tax" on my $1k fridge so it's not my
problem anymore. Just like using a paper straw at starbucks is doing
absolutely nothing at all if you don't change the rest of your lifestyle.

[https://www.africanexponent.com/post/8588-the-west-is-
dumpin...](https://www.africanexponent.com/post/8588-the-west-is-dumping-
electronic-waste-in-africa)

[https://www.theguardian.com/global-
development/2014/oct/06/s...](https://www.theguardian.com/global-
development/2014/oct/06/smelly-contaminated-disease-worlds-open-dumps)

[https://www.theguardian.com/global-
development/2019/apr/24/r...](https://www.theguardian.com/global-
development/2019/apr/24/rotten-chicken-eggs-e-waste-from-europe-poisons-ghana-
food-chain-agbogbloshie-accra)

~~~
mistrial9
the first city-wide recycling projects in the USA were faced with this kind of
brick-wall reasoning in the 1970s, and yet have built successfully over and
over.. the sideways reference to "eco-tax" shows there is an ideological
driver here

~~~
lm28469
> the sideways reference to "eco-tax" shows there is an ideological driver
> here

Yes clearly, thinking a few cents of eco tax will outweigh your ecological
impact is like thinking using paper straws makes up for taking the plane once
a week. It's nice "feel good" idea but it doesn't have any real world impact.
Just look at every pollution related threads on HN, there are always a lot of
people blaming China and Asia for having the most polluting rivers, while the
majority of the shit ending in their rivers was consumed in the EU/US.
Recycling really isn't much more than "I'll put it far away and from now on
act like it doesn't exist anymore".

Everything I read about recycling in the US, or anywhere else for that matter,
is that it doesn't work very well and most of it is exported, so I'm not quite
sure about which recycling projects you're talking about.

[https://www.plasticpollutioncoalition.org/blog/2019/3/6/1570...](https://www.plasticpollutioncoalition.org/blog/2019/3/6/157000-shipping-
containers-of-us-plastic-waste-exported-to-countries-with-poor-waste-
management-in-2018)

[https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/jun/17/recycled-
pla...](https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/jun/17/recycled-plastic-
america-global-crisis)

[https://www.boell.de/en/2019/11/04/waste-exports-rubbish-
dum...](https://www.boell.de/en/2019/11/04/waste-exports-rubbish-dump-closed)

[https://www.statista.com/chart/18229/biggest-exporters-of-
pl...](https://www.statista.com/chart/18229/biggest-exporters-of-plastic-
waste-and-scrap/)

~~~
mistrial9
plastics is not solved, so we agree on that.. paper and aluminum can easily
pay for itself when done well.. lots of dense consumer products are somewhere
in the middle.. product design and materials make the difference in many cases

" so I'm not quite sure about which recycling projects you're talking about"
.. there are ample business case studies of materials recycling that work, in
certain markets, but they do not tend to be at the top of the web-based news

It is unduly onerous to claim "recycling doesn't work" IMO

------
tmikaeld
Meanwhile, Oil companies like Shell, are investing in production facilities to
supersize plastic production, now that oil prices have fallen. [0]

And they are also trying to control the negative fallout [1]

[0] [https://qz.com/1689529/nurdles-are-the-biggest-pollution-
dis...](https://qz.com/1689529/nurdles-are-the-biggest-pollution-disaster-
youve-never-heard-of/) [1] [https://www.fastcompany.com/90295292/the-worlds-
big-plastic-...](https://www.fastcompany.com/90295292/the-worlds-big-plastic-
makers-want-more-recycling-so-they-can-keep-pumping-out-plastic)

------
rhizome
A few years ago I came up with the idea that instead of funding facial
recognition, image-recognition technology could be used at dumps to recognize
the brands associated with unrecycled trash passing through the chutes, then
using that data to tax companies whose consumers create the most litter and
throw away the most recyclables.

------
Mirioron
Shouldn't we want this to actually end up in a landfill? That would be at
least some kind of a carbon sink.

~~~
lastres0rt
That's less of a carbon sink and more of a kick-the-can approach (no pun
intended).

------
sarah180
Is "somebody filed a lawsuit" really "news"? No. It's really only news if it
survives motions to dismiss.

------
jbobron
shocked they aren't also getting sued for lying about having no sugar in
diet/zero products

~~~
bosswipe
Can you explain what you mean?

~~~
jbobron
artificial sweeteners just like real sugar are refined, processed, products
that spike your insulin levels and cause all types of medical problems. To say
that their product is zero sugar and zero calories is misleading and makes it
seem as harmless as water.

~~~
bosswipe
I see, I wouldn't call it lying then. "Not sugar" does not imply "does not
behave like sugar".

~~~
jbobron
Wat

~~~
bosswipe
You claim that they're lying because their sweeteners behave like sugar inside
the body. But they didn't claim that their products don't behave like sugar,
they only claimed that they don't contain sugar, which is true.

------
zoonosis
What is the lie that Coke et al are being accused of making?

