
What I use instead of Google services - lnmx
http://www.gabrielweinberg.com/blog/2014/09/what-i-use-instead-of-google-services.html
======
astrocat
> _" Like most people, I don't like to be tracked. I also am the founder of
> the search engine that doesn't track you, DuckDuckGo."_

It pains me to hear intelligent people talk about being "tracked" as something
"bad" a priori. While there are certainly plenty of examples of abuse of
knowledge, I tend to think of most "tracking" not as "stalking" but as
"relationship building." Let me explain...

Google is a service provider that I frequent, just like my coffee roaster or
my stock broker or whatever. Over time, service providers develop a
relationship with their customers based on knowledge of that customer. This
knowledge helps inform how they provide and improve their service. My coffee
roaster knows what kinds of coffee I like and makes appropriate
recommendations when new beans arrive. My stock broker knows what kinds of
risks I like to take and gives appropriate investment direction.

Ok, so I don't really have a stock broker but... My point is: I appreciate
that google is aware enough to know that when I search for "hash salt" I'm not
talking about potatoes. DDG shows me recipes and first.

The problem (as with most things that are hot-button issues) is that the most
talked about thing - "tracking" \- is a red herring. The REAL issue is
_accountability._ True information lockdown rarely benefits anyone, but
openness without accountability is useless and downright dangerous.

Suggesting people flee one provider's services and head to other providers who
are not concretely more accountable (just because they "say so" doesn't make
it true) is simply being petty. We should instead be spending out breath
advocating for greater accountability in the system as a whole.

~~~
dskhatri
His point is more about not putting all your eggs in one basket; you certainly
don't tell your barista about an upcoming physician's appointment, or that you
are in the market for a house. Your barista is also disconnected from parties
who may leverage the information you provide him/her. Similarly, you don't
tell your broker that you prefer Ethiopian coffee. Google offers so many
services that it has a much broader insight into who you are. To the privacy-
conscious, that's an unacceptable fact. Nothing to be pained about.

~~~
kllrnohj
Except the author then proceeds to toss all his eggs into Apple's basket. No,
it's not about putting all the eggs in one basket, it's about paranoidly
avoiding Google at all costs for some unknown reason.

~~~
dirtyaura
What are you talking about? Of 12-14 services he listed, 4 were from Apple
(iOS, Mobile Safari, Apple Maps for directions, and iCloud for Calendar sync).

And quite likely, he is not paranoidily avoiding Google, but partly
experimenting as he is running one of the very few companies that are directly
trying to compete with Google in search.

~~~
nickonline
Just going from your examples above:

\- Safari/iOS will let Apple know you're in a market for a house \- Safari
will let Apple know you like Ethiopain coffee \- Also it will probably allow
them to track your searches \- Along with Calendar sync and maps Apple knows
both where you are currently and where you'll be next

While not all of his eggs are in one basket, there's an awful lot of them
providing an awful lot of "tracking" information to one entity.

Sure, if he's experimenting with replacing Google's services that's a valid
reason.

~~~
marrone12
The only difference is that Apple is not an advertising company. Google
explicitly uses your information to advertise against you. Apple is not yet in
that vertical.

~~~
jessedhillon
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IAd](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IAd)

 _iAd is a mobile advertising platform developed by Apple Inc. for its iPhone,
iPod Touch, and iPad line of mobile devices allowing third-party developers to
directly embed advertisements into their applications. Announced on April 8,
2010, iAd is part of Apple 's iOS 4, originally slated for release on June 21,
2010, the actual date was changed to July 1, 2010._

~~~
theshrike79
Safari has 3rd party cookies turned off by default. And how many iAds have you
seen?

Also iAds have quite strict requirements as to what kind of identifying
information they receive from the device.

Google/Android doesn't have any qualms about giving every bit of information
they can get to the advertisers, that's the main source of income for Google.
Also, 3rd party cookies will not be turned off by default in any Google
product ever.

------
spindritf
OK, there's some value in diversifying instead of using one provider for
everything but mostly he just swapped Apple, Fastmail, or Clicky in place of
Google. They can still track him, read his email, know his calendar... The
benefit here is marginal.

And how do those companies stack up against Google when it comes to security?
It's one thing to protect the data against snooping by the provider, it's
anoter to protect it from everyone else. Google is pretty solid, often on the
cutting edge (PFS, certificate pinning).

~~~
oconnore
The difference between data privacy now, and data privacy 10 or 20 years ago
has little to do with how many people have access to it, or how secure it is.
It mostly has to do with who can analyze it.

An example: where you walk in public is public information, but for most of
human history, no one has had the capability to keep a database of that
information and query it retroactively. Your location information is therefore
less private now than it was before, because that information used to be
impossible to reference meaningfully.

The same concept goes for email, calendars, contact graphs, etc. Using
providers that don't have, or consciously avoid the capability to aggregate,
analyze, and query it improves your privacy. Google is not one of those
providers.

~~~
imgabe
Ok, say someone has a complete database of my location sampled at 10 minute
intervals over the past few years. What could they do with that information
that would be harmful to me?

~~~
Carrok
So you're saying you're ok with me knowing everywhere you've been for the past
few years?

I'm going to assume then that you don't visit strip clubs, bars, 'adult book'
stores, the house of your drug dealer, the house of your secret lover, a
proctologists office, an OBGYN, an abortion clinic, or a million other places.
You may not visit these places, but many others do, and having that
information publicly available could be devastating to families, careers,
entire lives.

On the other end of the spectrum, say you happen to be in the general vicinity
of multiple burglaries at the time these crimes are believed to have happened.
You're arrested and have to prove your own innocence.

Or maybe someone who wants to do you harm looks at your data for patterns, and
goes to the right place at the right time to rob, extort, harass, rape, even
murder you.

In general, I think having your location information public is a terrifying
prospect.

~~~
Valseuss
You don't even have to have been there at all. Once an entity holds all your
personal information like that, they can just say "Oh you were here, here,
here and here at these times" even if it was not true. Who would doubt them?
After all they have all the information right? RIGHT?

Perfect way to set up someone you don't like.

~~~
imgabe
If the government has devolved to the point that we have to worry about them
framing people unjustly, we have FAR, FAR bigger problems than a database of
location information. Hiding the information in that scenario is, at best, a
temporary band aid. The appropriate fix is limiting the power of the
government and requiring strict and transparent conditions on when and why
someone can be arrested.

~~~
billiam
I'm sorry, I just don't follow this slippery slope argument. We have lots of
examples of the government abusing their use of online information. For the
haves, we have the still-minor indignities of the no-fly list and targeting
certain political stripes for IRS audits. For the have-nots, it is terrorism
fusion data centers, predatory civil forfeiture and, jeez, a lot of the
criminal justice system. So that world does exist now.

Many of these excesses have been driven by "limiting the size of government"
by defunding local governments and relying on private information brokers
(license plate readers, etc), rather than passing better laws.

~~~
imgabe
The things you've mentioned are all generally Bad Things and things that we
should be fighting to stop. Fighting to obscure your location information and
even protect your privacy in general doesn't stop any of the things you
mentioned if you believe the government is acting in bad faith.

~~~
seanflyon
It mitigates the risk. Someone cannot do bad things with your location
information if they do not have your location information.

~~~
imgabe
I think it is naive to think that a bad actor who intends you harm will be
stopped or even slowed down by the fact that there isn't a log of every
location you've visited.

~~~
seanflyon
I think that that is a ridiculous statement. Of course giving a bad actor more
opportunity to act badly increases the risk.

~~~
imgabe
A threat to your safety or your freedom needs to be dealt with directly by
eliminating it, not hiding from it. If you're envisioning a bad actor with the
resources to compile and analyze a comprehensive log of your location, the
simple fact that you use service A instead of service B is not going to do a
thing to stop them if they're out to get you. You have far bigger problems on
your hands.

~~~
seanflyon
What about a potential threat? You are not allowed to "eliminate" those. Maybe
just don't give that potential threat more power.

~~~
imgabe
"Potential threat" is an unbounded set. If you're going to guard against every
potential threat you will not be able to spend your time doing anything else.

I asked because I was curious about what sorts of unique threats are presented
by, for example, a database of location data. So far I haven't seen any that
aren't already present via far simpler means.

~~~
seanflyon
It does not take an unbounded amount of time to simply not give information to
an unbounded set. In fact that takes no time at all.

The point is not that the world will end if we give away our location data,
only that doing so has a non-zero cost.

~~~
imgabe
If you have a cell phone, it is constantly pinging nearby cell towers. If it
has wifi, it is pinging nearby wireless networks. That information is out
there, waiting to be collected. If you want to go without the benefits of a
cell phone to avoid whatever threat is posed by somebody knowing where you
were at some point in time, go for it. I think it's a waste of time.

~~~
seanflyon
I think there has been some confusion here. When I said that "The point is not
that the world will end if we give away our location data, only that doing so
has a non-zero cost" what I meant was that the point is not that the world
will end if we give away our location data, only that doing so has a non-zero
cost.

Cell phones are like cars, they are very useful but also have their downsides
(cell phones reduce privacy, cars kill people). I have a cell phone and a car
because I made a decision that the cost was worth the benefit. I did not need
to delude myself into thinking there was no cost nor did I need to pretend
that the cost was inevitable.

~~~
imgabe
The threat of a comprehensive database of everywhere I've been is extremely
minimal. There's not much someone can do with that that they couldn't do
without it. If some whackjob want to wait for me to turn the corner so he can
hit me with a sock full of nickels or something, he's not going to get a
database of everywhere I've been over the past two years and hang around the
coffee shop that I have an 84% chance of visiting on the third Thursday of odd
numbered months. He's just going to look up my address and wait in the bushes
outside.

------
elliottpayne
I switched to fastmail and duckduckgo in lieu of google products a little over
a year ago for some of the same reasons. I tried to switch to safari from
chrome, and that experiment lasted about 3 months before I got annoyed by how
safari handles multiple tabs.

But, as far as most of the criticisms posted here, they're really unfounded.
If you want to be a purist about privacy, you really have to just quit using
technology. It's not realistic. Yes, you can be an idealist and try to run
your own email server, etc. but it's really about balancing tradeoffs. I also
use Apple maps and iCloud and dropbox and Evernote and... many other services
we should give just as much scrutiny to as Google.

I don't see my choices as being about riding a high-horse, it's about a
diversified portfolio of services that helps me avoid total lock-in. The day
that google heavily oversteps with the G+ product strategy or twitter
completely goes to shit, I've got a series of alternative services that can
pick up the slack.

~~~
toxican
My thing isn't that I don't trust any one particular Google product. It's that
I don't feel safe putting all of my eggs into one basket. A year ago, Google
was my phone, my search engine, my email, video hosting, my DNS, my IM service
(GTalk when it was still a thing), and cloud storage system. That's a _lot_ of
personal stuff all tied together under one account. So I split things up. I
hosted some stuff where I could (email and online storage) and used different
services/products where I couldn't. But I also continue to use Google for my
search engine.

I don't really see it as a question of if Google will screw up with people's
data, it's a question of when.

~~~
anaktos
By the time when, Google will be our overlords. Running the world with no one
to be able to resist their ironclad rule. Because they know you, they know
where your most loved live, what you need most to live, what your habits are,
what medications you need.

Doesn't that sound bit too pessimistic? Of course it does. You already trusted
Google, why trust another company and risk your data?

What if, from the 10 companies you trust your data with, 2 of the go rogue and
use your data against you? OR what if they get hacked, and lose everything?
That's what I fear more than giving too much data to Google. I'd rather trust
one super reliable guy (Google), than trusting 5 (Self hosting) maybe trust-
able, 3 shady guys, and 2 unreliable guys. But that's just me, I make sure all
my accounts have 2 step auth.

------
Oletros
Browser: Safari / ...

Maps: ... / Apple for directions on mobile

Phone OS: iOS

Calendar: iCloud

And then talks about data not given to one company.

Really, is it just a strange joke?

~~~
dombili
It's obviously not smart to rely on one company that heavily, but I can see
his reasoning behind using Apple products. I too am not using any Google
services if I can help it but if I had to make a choice between giving my data
to Google or Apple, I'd choose Apple. Not because I trust Apple more than I
trust Google, but because I trust their source of income. Apple's business is
to sell you hardware, while Google's business is to gather information about
you so it can show you ads.

~~~
Oletros
Ah, so the problem is not having your data.

By the way, I think iAds pertains to Apple, not to Google.

~~~
dombili
What Apple earns from iAds is chump change compare to Google's ad revenue. I
don't deny iAds exists, but read my comment carefully. That's not their main
source of income. Google's almost whole business is to sell ads. Apple can
survive without selling ads, Google can not.

~~~
Oletros
And? Both of them track data, both of them do target ads.

What is the real difference? One is better at doing it than the other?

~~~
dombili
I just told you the difference. What is it that you don't understand?

Google's whole business revolves around showing you targeted ads. Apple's
business is to sell you iDevices. Apple will not target you to the point where
it's invasive and creepy (although I'd argue even the smallest amount of
tracking is invasive, but I've been trying to look at this from Gabriel
Weinberg's point of view) because Apple can not do anything to harm its main
source of income. Google's job _is_ to track you and they legally (and
sometimes illegaly) do everything they can to be successful in their business.
They can not hurt their main source of income by being invasive, because being
invasive is their business.

For the record, I'm not saying Apple is any better than Google or vice versa.
As I said, I've been trying to play the devil's advocate.

~~~
NicoJuicy
The point is, Apple does track you AND charges a premium. Google doesn't do
both.

If you look at EFFF, Google has had your back longer with lobbywork before the
EFF report came out ( [https://www.eff.org/who-has-your-
back-2013](https://www.eff.org/who-has-your-back-2013) ) as soon as that got
popular last year, all of them upgraded their lobbywork (Apple)

Yes, now they all have 5 stars, but the EFF report first came out in 2011
without them knowing ( [https://www.eff.org/who-has-your-
back-2011](https://www.eff.org/who-has-your-back-2011) )... But there was a
lot of hype about it last year, so they had to improve their "score-card".

It sure took Apple long enough though :)

------
chimeracoder
> Email: Fastmail

I recently migrated to Fastmail, and I was pleasantly surprised by how easy it
was. Fastmail automatically imports your emails from Gmail, and it took me so
little time that I kicked myself for not doing it before.

> Calendar: iCloud

For those of us who don't use both OS X and iOS, this isn't feasible.
Fortunately, though, Fastmail also provides a calendar service. It
synchronizes with Google Calendar in case you still need to use Google (e.g.
for work), and it was also a seamless switch.

As for a client, I was very surprised by this, but I've actually found that
the latest version of Mozilla Lightning[0] is the best calendar interface.
Fastmail's is okay, but still in beta (it's less than a year old). Setting up
Lightning to sync with Fastmail's calendar took just a minute, and I actually
like the interface more than I liked Google Calendar's[1].

Thunderbird is an okay mail client (not a terrible interface, but not a great
one), but even if you don't use Thunderbird for mail, I would recommend trying
out Lightning for calendaring.

[0]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lightning_%28software%29](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lightning_%28software%29)

[1] It's okay for viewing events in the week view, but there are a lot of UI
quirks and bugs that catch up with you after daily use - this one is the most
pernicious, but there are a number that are simply annoying as well:
[http://arstechnica.com/security/2014/01/how-google-
calendar-...](http://arstechnica.com/security/2014/01/how-google-calendar-can-
tip-off-your-boss-you-want-a-raise/) [2]

[2] Since I know people will ask - I consider this a UI issue because it's
fairly easy to imagine a minor UI improvement that would indicate this
unexpected result of Quick Add (and others) before clicking "Add" _without_
sacrificing this functionality in case it is desired.

------
hoopism
Where I shop instead of Walmart: Sams Club

------
ape4
I was hoping this was suggestions for services you can host yourself.
Switching from Google to Apple doesn't really change much.

~~~
cik
Maybe I can oblige here then :)

owncloud, owncloud, owncloud!

It has CalDAV, CardDAV, and files support. There's even a rudimentary (though
scary) online editor with support for openoffice. I use two-factor with
owncloud, and happily share files, too. And... it supports an encrypted
backend!.

Now, if you're happy to host your own mail, you can also look at adding
RoundCube.

This can solve the Calendar/Contacts/Email/Filesharing main case. Works across
Windws/Mac/Linux, even mobile... which in my case is Android. It's not
amazing, but it's pretty fantastic.

~~~
CalRobert
Another happy owncloud user here, though the funny thing is what I want it for
is specifically NOT syncing - in fact, I don't like that it even tries to sync
folders. I mostly want a media player/NAS/photo gallery/mail server (though I
might just install a mail server separate from owncloud; I'd still want a
webmail interface though).

~~~
quoiquoi
> I'd still want a webmail interface though

A few ones to check:

* [http://roundcube.net/](http://roundcube.net/)

* [http://rainloop.net](http://rainloop.net)

* [https://www.mailpile.is/](https://www.mailpile.is/)

------
lvillani
Personally, I have a VPS where I keep my own mail server, webmail, ownCloud
instance (calendar, address book, file storage, etc), IRC bouncer... All
courtesy of Sovereign
([https://github.com/al3x/sovereign](https://github.com/al3x/sovereign))

~~~
cellover
Very interesting resource, thanks for posting ; even if not for the playbook
itself, the collection of tools is interesting.

Having your own server is definetely a good solution, it just needs experience
and comes at a certain price, even if it stays reasonnable. But most people
just don't want to be bothered with maintaining the box (hosting payment,
security updates, domain name renewal, SSL ceritificate renewal and so on).

However, it is a fantastic way of learning by yourself!

~~~
lvillani
Well, if you use the supported Debian 7 pointing Ansible to your box is all
that's needed. Since I decided to go with Ubuntu 14.04 (unofficially
supported), it took a little longer and I had to submit a couple of patches to
make it work there. The "hardest" part was figuring out how to set-up the DKIM
and SPF records in my registrar's DNS control panel (namecheap). Other than
that, I don't really have to babysit the thing: I get a weekly logrotate
report by email and rarely, if ever, SSH into the box to check that everything
works. From time to time I re-run the Ansible script to ensure everything is
in proper order but, still, I almost never have to spend more than 10 minutes
a fortnight.

------
napoleond
Another Fastmail endorsement--they really are fantastic. I confess to still
using Gmail for some things but it's mostly just because I've been too lazy to
switch over all of my accounts. Fastmail is truly a better service.

As for calendar, I've heard good things about
[https://fruux.com/](https://fruux.com/) although I haven't tried that myself
yet. (And apparently Fastmail does calendar too--again, haven't tried.)

~~~
thenomad
Is their spam filtering good? That's the primary reason I'm sticking with
Google Apps for now.

~~~
songgao
Coming from Google Apps and currently using Fastmail: It's not as good as
Gmail. I still get spams in my Inbox but they are not really a deal breaker.
I've been using Fastmail for over 3 months and I'm rather happy about it (just
paid for a yearly subscription). I'd suggest you to try it out with a 3 month
subscription. You can always switch back; it's just a couple MX records after
all.

Oh btw, fastmail also has CalDav (Calendar only; no Tasks) and It's been
working well for me too.

------
alpatters
> "Practically, switching away from as many Google services as possible will
> help alleviate the most obvious issues like most of your personal data being
> in the hands of one company and the related issue of ads following you
> around the Internet."

Ads that follow you has absolutely nothing to do with Google services. These
are retargeting companies using their cookies to track you. They use ad
exchanges, so even that is not principally Google.

------
MichaelGG
I, too, am very unhappy with Google. They're obviously intentionally trying to
get people to get used to giving up privacy. From the moronic system Android
has, to the tricky dialogs Chrome puts up, they don't like the anti-tracking
sentiment.

But... DuckDuckGo just doesn't compete on search results. I changed to it as
my default search engine, but I ended up going to Google most of the time.

And switching away from Android... I tried to move to Windows 8 / Phone, but
the ecosystem is a joke. Desktop apps don't work well on their small tablet
form factor, and the Metro apps are laughably terrible. Microsoft can't even
prevent total scams, like $9 fake Netflix and HBO. And they ignore reports
about them.

~~~
Valseuss
Apple spies on you as much as google, without a doubt. They're just not as
open about it. After all, why wouldn't they do it when it helps them build
"better" products that make them more money.

------
rizumu
The PRISM break list is far more comprehensive: [https://prism-
break.org](https://prism-break.org)

------
wstrange
I sleep comfortably at night knowing my private photos are stored safely on
iCloud.

~~~
rakoo
and on everyone's computer after the leak of the day, too.

------
mark_l_watson
Until recently, I also was very concerned with privacy, partly not wanting my
personal data available easily to many large corporations, and also wanting to
keep resources for client work very secure.

What changed is that I have retired (except for some mentoring and writing).
Now, I would like the tech side of my life to be as simple as possible in
order to free up my time for other activities. So for right now I am massively
using Google services but I am considering, depending on how much I like the
iPhone 6, just living in Apple's little walled garden. I trust both Apple and
Google to generally do the right things.

I still advise friends and family to run Adblock software, and to be generally
prudent privacy and security wise. But for me personally privacy issues are
not as important as they once were.

------
dan_bk
> On top of the browser I use these add-ons to reduce tracking further; also,
> note that private browsing mode and the do not track setting will not stop
> you from being tracked.

(Almost) nobody can escape the tracking, as long as fingerprinting remains
possible: [https://panopticlick.eff.org/](https://panopticlick.eff.org/)

Google's/Facebook's/Twitter's JS scripts are literally on every site.
Fingerprinting allows them to increase their ROI since it builds more precise
profiles on you. The advertising industry is happy and the government is
happy. So forget about them not fingerprinting you.

~~~
dublinben
Most fingerprinting can be avoided by not allowing Javascript. Social tracking
scripts can be specifically removed by addons like Disconnect.me.

------
nodata
Storage: BTSync -> syncthing ([http://syncthing.net/](http://syncthing.net/))

------
Sir_Cmpwn
Video hosting: [https://mediacru.sh](https://mediacru.sh)

Benefits over Vimeo: FOSS, deployable on your own servers, pro-privacy, also
supports audio and images.

I helped make it, so take this with a grain of salt.

------
jacquesm
It's sad that the only alternatives he can come up with for one set of cloud
based services by one set of providers is another set of cloud based services
by another set of providers.

------
zobzu
Mostly its using Apple stuff instead of Google stuff..

thanks but no thanks

------
acheron
One thing I've been looking to replace is Google News. Anyone know of another
similar news aggregator? (Don't say "reddit".)

~~~
awhitty
SkimFeed[0] aggregates mostly tech news, but it's not nearly as feature-heavy
as Google News. Maybe check it out?

0 - [http://skimfeed.com/](http://skimfeed.com/)

------
lvs
This website is somehow blocked for me:

    
    
      This Page Cannot Be Displayed
    
      Based on your corporate access policies, this web site ( http://www.gabrielweinberg.com/blog/2014/09/what-i-use-instead-of-google-services.html ) has been blocked because it has been determined by Web Reputation Filters to be a security threat to your computer or the corporate network. This web site has been associated with malware/spyware.
    
      Threat Type: othermalware 
      Threat Reason: IP address is either verified as a bot or has misconfigured DNS.
    
      If you have questions, please contact your corporate network administrator and provide the codes shown below.
    
      Notification codes: 	(1, MALWARE, othermalware, IP address is either verified as a bot or has misconfigured DNS., BLOCK-MALWARE, 0x037419bb, 1409690418.913, AAAEOQAAAAAAAAAAJf8ACP8AAAD/AAAAAAAAAAAAAAE=, http://www.gabrielweinberg.com/blog/2014/09/what-i-use-instead-of-google-services.html)

~~~
itazula
Same here, the "web reputation" is low according to SenderBase. See
[http://www.senderbase.org/lookup/?search_string=www.gabrielw...](http://www.senderbase.org/lookup/?search_string=www.gabrielweinberg.com)

"Fwd/Rev DNS Match" is said by SenderBase to be "Unknown" (this is odd).
Checking on my laptop:

$ dig +short www.gabrielweinberg.com

gabrielweinberg.com.

96.227.124.38

$ dig +short -x 96.227.124.38

blink.duckduckgo.com.

It is on the Verizon FiOS network, which has a number of poor reputation
hosts:

[http://www.senderbase.org/lookup/org/?search_string=Verizon%...](http://www.senderbase.org/lookup/org/?search_string=Verizon%20FiOS)

The site appears within the CBL too, which gives some details: IP Address
96.227.124.38 is listed in the CBL. It appears to be infected with a spam
sending trojan, proxy or some other form of botnet.

It was last detected at 2014-09-03 06:00 GMT (+/\- 30 minutes), approximately
4 hours ago.

This IP address is infected with, or is NATting for a machine infected with
"Gameover Zeus" or "GOZ" \- previously it has been referred to as "ZeusV3" or
"p2pzeus". GOZ is a version of the ZeuS malware that uses peer-to-peer (P2P)
command and control mechanisms.

------
x0x0
Is there a good, paid, gmail alternative with the same conversations, labels,
keyboard controls, and decent search? Ideally with both webmail, calendar, and
an app? Also, ideally not associated with microsoft, yahoo, or even the
valley? I keep seeing fastmail but it looks like just another email provider.

I keep pondering creating a service like this for say $40/year, but I'd rather
to it than build it. I'm currently a tuffmail subscriber but I really want
gmail with a clone of their android app, just in exchange for money and a
strong privacy policy.

~~~
nmjenkins
FastMail has conversations, keyboard controls and decent search, with both
webmail and calendar and is $40/year for a 15GB account…

(Disclaimer: I work for FastMail. But seriously, it sounds like we might be
just what you're looking for).

~~~
b3n
Only issue I have with FastMail is they don't accept Bitcoin.

------
personlurking
In the face of nefarious agencies and companies that track, I don't think
there's a 'best' option to switch to, per se, only a harder (to be tracked)
option. Tracking, in my belief, still goes on, in one way or another.

So what are we left with? Trying as hard as possible to use online services
for work (assuming that's your bread and butter) and to be in the real world
for leisure, etc. Not always possible, and less possible as the years go on,
but a lot better than thinking one (popular) online service will be a safe
haven from another.

------
Cowicide
For those of you in this thread that are dismayed that some of us don't enjoy
being tracked, I highly recommend a short, entertaining documentary that's
currently available on Netflix, iTunes, etc. called:

Terms and Conditions May Apply

[http://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/terms_and_conditions_may_app...](http://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/terms_and_conditions_may_apply/)

[http://tacma.net/](http://tacma.net/)

Actually, I think even some privacy-conscious folks might learn a thing or two
from it as well. I know I did. :)

------
genericuser
Is there a good non-google alternative to Docs / Drive. I read the article
hoping to find one, but didn't see any mention of one. Having a non-google
version of a service which allows collaboration and modification of documents
through a web browser, without additional software installed would be nice and
I feel it must exist, but don't know where to look.

Anyone got a recommendation.

~~~
jboynyc
The App Suite provided by mailbox.org is quite good, but I'm not sure how well
it does with collaboration.

------
thomasfoster96
The problem that many people (me included) have with being tracked is usually
that they don't know what's being tracked and/or how it is being used and
stored. DuckDuckGo thinks that the solution is to stop tracking altogether,
when really I'd be happy with just a search engine that was more transparent
with what they were storing and using.

------
larrys
While it's not trivial it's not that hard to spin up a mail server on a VPS
(which can run smtp, imap and/or webmail). For that matter you can run it off
a static internet connection or even a dynamic IP from your home or office PC.
(Running linux or Mac OSX never done it with windows although I'm sure you
can).

~~~
eropple
You can then get shotgunned by spam filters, too. =( Running your own mail is
not for the timid.

~~~
larrys
"You can then get shotgunned by spam filters, too"

Have you had that problem and weren't able to get by it? I've had IP changes
over the years and while it's taken a _small_ bit of work to get the new IP
accepted (in _some_ places most places don't seem to care) I'd say it's hardly
a show stopper. Of course all the email deliverability people selling products
and services in that market want to make you believe you'd be a fool to roll
your own.

Of course if you get a VPS with some IP address that someone used to spam sure
you have a problem. The idea is to do your homework and not have any of the
obvious problems. (You can run the IP by the blackholes to see most issues.)

Also (not a comment directed at you by the way) I love the way a forum such as
HN where people spend all sorts of time doing things just for fun seems to
have a problem with the "work" involved in doing something that actually has
value or might take a bit of work in order to solve a problem that they have.

The downvotes seem to indicate a reaction such as "wow what a stupid idea why
would you run your own mail server hey you can just use fastmail that's what
we all use".

------
NicoJuicy
Personally, a bunch of your suggestions are based on Apple = severly censored,
anti-competitive,... i REALLY don't like that.

If walking away from Google means switching to Apple, then it's a no-go for
me. I'll rather have Microsoft ( fyi. i'm mainly a c# developer, but also
python, RoR and nodejs )

------
kungfooguru
tl;dr: give your data to Apple instead of Google because...?

~~~
wfjackson
Because Apple's free services are a value add to increase their device sales
off which they make a ton of money, while Google's free services are typically
monetized with targeted advertising based on a profile built off your private
data, so they tend to collect and retain a lot of it.

------
alex_duf
And for everyone ready to self-host, yunohost.org is a great and super easy
solution to host email, calendar, files etc...

I would recommend, I think this distribution doesn't have the popularity it
deserves.

------
tehwalrus
Fastmail still has hardware inside the US; not a viable alternative to Google,
privacy-wise.

(have just checked out MyKolab, they seem pretty awesome, although alas too
expensive for me right now.)

------
monokrome
I think that recommending BTSync is a bit scary.

Instead of accounts and a potentially long brute-force process as provided by
Dropbox, BTsync relies on a public and "secret" key having been generated.
This seems fine and dandy until you realize that the concept of brute force is
an applicable means of getting access to anyone's BTsync if they are using the
standard tracker.

Given enough storage space and bandwidth, someone could just create any number
of shared folders assigning them all a different set of keys (this doesn't
need to be done one-at-a-time) and wait for data to fall into them.

Doesn't this completely sidestep the concept of the data being supposedly
secure in BTsync?

~~~
jamoes
As long as the secret has enough bits, then the risk of collision is so
negligible that it's basically zero in our finite world.

I think the concept of just how large some numbers are really sunk in for me
when I read this article [1] from Bruce Schneier. One thing I learned was that
it would require more energy than the total energy output of the sun just to
power a computer to _count_ to 2^256. Ultimately, this quote from that article
sums up his point well:

> These numbers have nothing to do with the technology of the devices; they
> are the maximums that thermodynamics will allow. And they strongly imply
> that brute-force attacks against 256-bit keys will be infeasible until
> computers are built from something other than matter and occupy something
> other than space.

[1]
[https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2009/09/the_doghouse_...](https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2009/09/the_doghouse_cr.html)

------
contingencies
Fastmail would be more attractive if they accepted bitcoin.

~~~
robn_fastmail
We're actually testing bitcoin payments at the moment. If you want to take the
time to contact support, we can tell you how to use it.

------
xamdam
"But what do you use for search when you can't find it with DDG" is my
question. (I do not work for the answer)

~~~
zanny
Startpage?

------
dreamfactory2
The bigger problem is that almost every message you send or are sent ends up
going through one of goog, fb, or twitter anyway

------
Morphling
>Phone OS: iOS

I guess there isn't much you can do with this, but is changing from Android to
iOS really big enough difference?

~~~
natch
As he said, degrees matter. By which I guess he means differences of degree.

The two companies involved (Google, Apple) have a fundamental difference in
their business model. One involves you and your private data as the product;
the other does not.

~~~
chimeracoder
If what you care about is privacy, I really don't think iOS is appreciably
better than Android. (Not marginally or theoretically - I mean practically).

If you're looking to be as private as possible[0], you should either use a
custom ROM of Android with Privacy Guard and with Google services disabled (or
use something like Replicant or FirefoxOS, if you're comfortable straying from
the two dominant mobile OSes).

[0] As private as possible while still carrying around a tracking device 24/7,
mind you (cell phones constantly report your location to your carriers, who
are not at all modest with this data)

------
TheMagicHorsey
I did not know iOS and Apple Maps are more privacy centric than Android and
Google Maps. Is that really true?

~~~
chipotle_coyote
I'm sure people will leap out to argue with me when I say yes, but: yes.

I don't say this out of a belief that Apple is pure and Google is evil, and
certainly not out of a belief that Apple shows a deep understanding of
security (boy, howdy, do they not show a deep understanding of security). I
say it out of my understanding of their business models. Basically, Apple
makes money from you because you give them money. Google makes money from you
by analyzing the data you send through their services.

"If you're not the customer, you're the product" is too glib by half -- both
Google and Apple want to make good products that you want to use, and it's
certainly in Google's interest to keep their users (i.e., you) happy. They're
arguably much better at online services than Apple is. But Google has a vested
interest in "reading" your mail, tracking your searches, and so on. Apple not
only lacks that interest, it's arguably a competitive advantage for them to
_not_ keep any more information about you than they absolutely have to.
They've spelled out in the recent past just what they keep, and it's largely
"what they absolutely have to." Apple's corporate culture genuinely seems to
be supportive of privacy, albeit tempered with profit-driven pragmatism.

This is not an argument that Apple is full of good and wonderful people (I
believe the ad copy should be "magical and revolutionary") and that Google is
full of terrible people who hate their users. Not at all. And Apple has had a
few high-profile privacy biffs where they _were_ collecting information they
shouldn't have been, which leads some people to be highly suspicious of them.
I get that -- but we're often handing even more data over to Google routinely
because that's what they require. That's _their_ corporate culture: their
mission is to organize the world's data, and fulfilling that mission requires
them to have access to the world's data. All of it.

And, last but not least, none of this is particularly relevant to government
snooping except to the degree that the less information is stored on a server
that isn't under your control the less information there is to be compromised.
(At least compromised via that particular vector.) If you're deeply worried
about that you shouldn't be using _either_ Apple or Google.

------
eridal
google is not a "search engine" anymore.. so why would I keep using it for?

all services that I keep using, are those that kept me from going somewhere
else (gmail replacement?), or those that I'm forced to use (not-removable
android apps?)

so seems to me, I'm stuck with google -- at least for now

------
wcummings
I use fastmail, I'm happy to pay for an email service instead of seeing ads

------
higherpurpose
Looking forward to use instead of Google's Hangouts: Signal on the desktop.

------
sergiotapia
That's all fine and dandy - however most of the time when I'm working as a
consultant, I'm created an email account on the company's domain. Typically
hosted on, you guessed it, Google Apps.

For some people leaving Google is literally not an option, and that's a shame.

~~~
praveenster
Have you tried Zoho? I have used both and it comes pretty close to Google Apps
and additionally they still offer a free option.

------
patrickaljord
Another day, another anti-google article by the duckduckgo guy, more FUD.

------
mikebay
I really do not like google or they spying.

------
goldhand
Who has time for this? Google can track me all they want but I'm not that
interesting of a person to track :)

------
molixiaoge
great

------
dhragoon
"Apple Maps"? This is shameless.

Not sure how to reconcile that with the seemingly mandatory PRISM invocations,
the post was almost stomachable up until the Apple cameo especially with the
recent privacy headlines. At Least recommend something that isn't a huge
downgrade in functionality, an OSM client or something.

I'm sure that Apple adding DDG to Safari is the reason for this thinly veiled
reciprocity.

Privacy or not these are people selling their wares and they are willing to be
sleazy about it, this is not unlike the bullshit post about the fake cell
antennas and the magical ROM that detected them that is making the rounds,
it's disheartening.

~~~
avar
I find it most interesting that he doesn't use some map provider using
OpenStreetMap data because that's what embedded in the DuckDuckGo search
results:
[https://duckduckgo.com/?q=amsterdam](https://duckduckgo.com/?q=amsterdam)

~~~
snowwrestler
Apple Maps does use Open Street Map data.

------
icantthinkofone
Interesting he uses Google Analytics as a "Google is tracking you" story when
the real trackers are the companies that put Analytics on their web site. And
all that tracking is now from a company they only bought relatively recently
(Double Click) that had been tracking you long before Google bought them. But
Google isn't the only company that does this and it's been done in far more
places than just the web and not by Google and for decades.

Tracking you by marketing companies has been happening since I was growing up
in the 60s. The only difference between then and now is it's also happening on
the new internet thing. Everything else tracks you, too.

------
thewolf
do you work for apple?

