
Google’s Secret China Project Sparks Fury Among Workers - doppp
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-08-02/pichai-the-pragmatic-plows-into-china-and-google-workers-fume
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beaner
Why is it unethical to launch a censored search product in China?

The alternative isn't to launch an uncensored search product. That's not
possible. The alternative is simply to not be there.

How do the Chinese benefit from that?

It seems to me that the presence of any international company could only act
as a wedge to gradually loosen censorship controls over time.

If Google is more restrictive than other search engines, this does not do any
harm, since the other options still provide the less restricted results,
meaning the exact same amount of information that is currently available to
people in China will continue to be available, and will not be affected by
Google's entry.

If Google is less restrictive, well then that's a win for the Chinese people.

This means that the entry of any search engine into China, restricted or not,
is at worst neutral and at best good for the Chinese.

~~~
fauigerzigerk
It is unethical because it normalises the worst kind of censorship, the one
that is meant to keep illegitimate rulers in power. This is not like other
types of censorship that can be criticised and overturned by democratic means,
but Google will now conflate the two to justify its actions.

Google not being in China has been a very prominent sign that this is not
normal, that the Chinese regime does not speak for the Chinese people and
therefore their laws have no legitimacy at all.

Google not being in China has been an ever present pointer towards the fact
that Chinese search enginges do not tell the truth.

It is also unethical because Google can now be blackmailed by the Chinese
regime, which will affect Google's behaviour towards its users in the rest of
the world. This isn't just an ethical concern but also a very pragmatic one.

~~~
beaner
Thanks, this is a good argument.

Being from the western world, it is very clear to me what Google's absence
from China signifies.

Given that China censors its media, do you think the Chinese citizenry are
aware at all about Google's position up to this point, or its symbolism?

It seems to me that the Chinese would not be influenced by Google's absence or
presence, since the reasoning is the kind of thing that would already be
censored.

~~~
fauigerzigerk
I don't know to what extent the Chinese people are aware of it or what range
of feelings it provokes.

But the fact that Google isn't there and that Google is almost everywhere else
cannot be censored.

At the very least it is (or rather was) an unresolved issue, an open question
and the regime doesn't like open questions about its legitimacy.

I think that's important, not just for China itself but also for the rest of
the world.

~~~
beaner
Can't it be censored, though? Isn't that the point? And if it can't be, what
are we arguing about?

Somebody told me once that they met a person from mainland China. They showed
them a picture of the Tank Man and asked them about Tiananmen Square. The
person was dumbfounded and did not know what they were talking about. They
tried to say "this is important to you!," but clearly it wasn't, and
censorship had worked. This person would have needed much more than a trip
overseas to have any interest in it.

I'm not sure why the Google story would be any different. Its symbolic to us
because not only are we able to access it, but we go out of our way to make a
big deal about it and study it. The fact that this information is available to
Chinese citizens when they temporarily leave their country is not enough for
it to become important to them.

The symbolism is important to us as westerners. But given that it is
meaningless to the Chinese, I question whether trying to preserve that
symbolism for ourselves outweighs the benefits that come from working with the
Chinese people and providing them with a good product inside of a system that
we mutually agree is terrible.

~~~
fauigerzigerk
_> Can't it be censored, though? Isn't that the point? And if it can't be,
what are we arguing about?_

I don't know what you're getting at. Explicit criticism of the regime can be
censored. Questions raised implicitly by the fact that foreign services are
blocked cannot be censored. They remain a thorn in the side of undemocratic
regimes.

 _> I question whether trying to preserve that symbolism for ourselves
outweighs the benefits [...]_

I know you do, and I strongly disagree.

The benefits of yet another censored search engine, email program or photo app
does not outweigh the damage that Google is doing to democracy all over the
world by legitimising this particular sort of censorship.

Also, you keep going on about your doubts about the value of that symbolism
for the Chinese people. But what about the value of that symbolism for the
rest of us who want to live in democratic societies and see democracy
strengthened and not weakened?

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DenisM
Google got an edge in hiring when they deployed their “don’t be evil” mantra,
but the long-term result is a workforce that’s leaning heavily left and in
many ways dictates what the company can or must do. And I doubt they can ever
undo this - hiring is performed by the people already on the inside.

~~~
jimjimjim
so... you're saying google is missing out on employees that are attracted to
evil?

that is what you are saying isn't it?

~~~
intended
I think he’s saying that corporate ambitions are now dealing with googles
legacy values.

I’d say this is a good thing

------
steven2012
Is this because of the leadership of Sundar Pichai? It seems as though he
might have good plans on making more revenue, but it flies in the face of the
expectations of his employees. Does this bode poorly for him as CEO if his
employees are openly rebelling against these high-profile projects such as
this and the drone AI project?

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sunstone
So first it's the US military projects and now it's bending the knee to the
eye of Sauron. Is Larry losing his touch here?

~~~
pjmlp
No, it is money speaking, "do no evil" was marketing for the coffee shop
developers that hate Microsoft and needed an hero.

------
pmoriarty
I am proud of those Google employees who've taken a stand against the
unethical practices of their employer.

This world would be a much better place if more people did that rather than
looking the other way and acting as mercenaries for the highest bidder.

~~~
ironjunkie
I don't know if I would be proud.

It is very easy to be morally outraged for something that everyone in the West
already agrees with. At this point it is almost a way to display a morale high
ground.

I would rather see morale outrage on more subtle subject such as the digital
addiction that Youtube etc creates, literally destroying lifes. [1]

[1] [https://www.wired.com/story/our-minds-have-been-hijacked-
by-...](https://www.wired.com/story/our-minds-have-been-hijacked-by-our-
phones-tristan-harris-wants-to-rescue-them/)

~~~
partiallypro
Oppression destroys more lives than an addictive freedom.

~~~
ironjunkie
One clear government oppression versus a new "hidden" oppression.

In the long term I'm not so sure that your statement will stand.

~~~
partiallypro
How is a choice a "hidden" oppression? I can see an argument for algorithms
suppressing certain world views being a problem...but as just a stand alone
choice, that is not real oppression. If you think it is, you've probably never
lived in an oppressive country. China is essentially stack ranking citizens
for access to certain rights and you're concerned about people's viewing
habits. We've gone generations of people claiming the same things about radio,
TV, music, etc. In the end those were replaced or the next generation wasn't
as attached...actual oppression is sticky.

~~~
dplgk
Is it a choice if that things goes to great lengths to take advantage of you
by manipulating known triggers in your human behavior? Some people don't have
the will to choose, that's addiction.

------
torgian
Well, Microsoft Bing has been in China for a long time and nobody says
anything about that....

It’s inevitable. Consumers will continue to use google because they aren’t
aware of the alternatives, so it’ll be a minority that uses other browsers in
a silent protest.

I’m sure a Wesrern version of the great firewall will be built soon

------
xbmcuser
Not unexpected with all the restrictions on data collection being put in place
in the West. Google needs the data for its ai. China is more open to data
collection as long as it is shared with the government.

------
millstone
What do we (we being the west) want to actually happen in China? Presumably we
want a dramatic liberalization across political, economic, and civil
liberties. So how might western multinationals help effect this?

One theory is that western multi-nats such as Google or Apple withdraw from
China, isolating it and forcing the CCP to liberalize (or a revolution). But
Apple and Google are small players in China so this would require a much
larger coordinated effort.

A second theory is that western multi-nats can partially participate in the
PRC economy, attempting to balance state demands against ethical
responsibilities. Their products, while still censored, nevertheless increase
the availability of the Internet, strong privacy tools, etc relative to
Chinese domestic offerings. The result is a more informed Chinese citizenry
which can in turn pressure the CCP to liberalize.

I suppose the risk of #2 is that it provides cover and legitimacy to the CCP,
so it might increase their power. Nevertheless it seems to me that #2 has a
better chance of working.

~~~
throwaway2048
#2 has been in action for decades, and they haven't moved an inch. The only
result has been a much stronger CCP and china.

------
JudasGoat
Does anyone else think that Google should release major policy changes to the
people that work there before the Press?

------
zn44
As easy as it is to say that it’s not google place to judge China government,
what concerns me most is the precedent that this will create. I am pretty sure
there will be a line of governments wanting to do the same and google will end
up with censorship as a service product.

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opnitro
This is one of the real reasons that tech workers need something like a union.
If we want to take responsibility for our work, and hold the corporations we
work for the those values, then we'll need the power of collective bargaining.

~~~
solidsnack9000
This is not the role of unions at all, actually -- they aren't a tool to allow
a skilled professionals to undertake political action and make decisions for
everyone else.

That's what political parties are for.

~~~
opnitro
Unions aren't for exercising the political will of workers? What is it that
the labor movement has achieved then? What did the strikes achieve? If not
forcing those in control of the company to take seriously the demands of
workers, then what else is a union for?

~~~
ApolloFortyNine
Safe working conditions and better wages?

~~~
opnitro
And are those not political goals? Many of the victories of the unions was
getting those things enshrined in law. Our labor laws were not simply voted
in, people had to struggle for them.

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dr1337
So much for Silicon Valley corporations and their "culture" and founding
myths.

I guess people don't even remember that Google once you used to have an
informal mantra of "Don't be evil."

~~~
ironjunkie
The way I see it, it is mainly Koolaid and a narrative told to the young
influenceable techies so they feel invested with a mission, and perform
better.

------
everyone
Google employees having issues with Google being unethical... Really????

The ones objecting to this must have godlike powers of selective perception.

~~~
artificial
It's actually a feature called personalized perception to give more relevancy.
I believe it can be disabled in the settings. /s

