
Google shareholders say "Go right ahead, be evil." - abstractbill
http://jwz.livejournal.com/761788.html
======
startupper
What happened here?

"Schmidt and founders Larry Page and Sergey Brin together hold 66.2 percent of
Google's total shareholder voting power, according to a U.S. Securities and
Exchange Commission (SEC) filing. All three are members of the board of
directors, which has recommended that shareholders vote against the proposal
at the company's annual meeting on May 10."

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Goladus
<http://headrush.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/2007/04/06/dumbgroups2.jpg>

Sersiouly though, it's a complicated issue and the suggestion to reject the
proposal may simply be because it needs revision.

~~~
gibsonf1
If that were the case, why didn't they mention that, in principle, the
proposal was good but needed to be revised which is why they recommended
voting it down in its current form?

~~~
Goladus
If it were me, it would be to avoid clutter and confusion, as there are only
two possible ways to vote.

But that's just a guess.

------
Tichy
While I assume that Google is evil, I am not sure that accepting censorship is
actually evil. The alternative would be that Google would not be available at
all in China. On the other hand chinese internet surfers are probably aware of
the censorship anyway. I think Google acts just like a company trying to do
it's job within the constraints of the environment.

------
pg
You guys are still arguing about this after two days? There ought to be a
variant of Parkinson's Law about how much easier it is to argue about politics
than other matters. It's like a ground state one sinks into. Individuals and
sites...

~~~
dfranke
I've never heard of those, and the last time I tried to edit an OS X keymap I
gave up in frustration, but for HTML, a workaround is to type &#39;

~~~
pg
Thanks, I used your suggestion to get apostrophes, which is why it will seem
incomprehensible to anyone reading it later.

------
ecuzzillo
If I were Larry/Sergei/Schmidt, I'd vote against it too, just because I get
annoyed when random shareholders try to tell me what to do with my company.
When I first read this in a different context, it was worded so that the
shareholders who weren't otherwise involved in the company brought up this
proposal to force the company to do this stuff. IMO, even if I were going to
follow the general intent of the proposal, I wouldn't want these random people
who bought a bunch of stock to start snooping over my shoulder all the time.

Furthermore, the measure seems likely to prevent the governments of said
countries from allowing Google into them at all. It is debatable whether
having a censored Google or no Google is better for oppressed peoples.

~~~
gibsonf1
A censored google targeting political activists does nothing good for the
oppressed people. It only makes ad revenues for Google while helping the
opressing government pull the wool over their subject's eyes and jail and/or
kill their political enemies.

------
gibsonf1
Damn, it is scary that they didn't accept those obvious guidelines. Google is
being evil after all - not a good thing for those fighting for freedom in
unfree countries where Google operates. Hopefully this breach will generate
enough bad publicity for Google that they will reconsider.

~~~
paul
In which countries do you think that would have allowed them to operate?

Unfortunately, all countries have problems and this isn't as black and white
as the link seems to imply.

~~~
gibsonf1
How can they justify operating in a country like China where their technology
is used directly to target political activists? I see no possible excuse for
this. They are providing the most efficient and effective censorship and
political targeting software ever created.

~~~
paul
And you think that none of that is going on in the United States or other
western countries? Should Google refuse to operate in the US because some of
our laws are bad?

~~~
gibsonf1
Um, when was the last time someone in the US was thrown in prison and/or
executed for a political opinion? This happens in China right now, and there
are already several cases where they used Google and Yahoo information to do
it. Hence the very justified outcry against a US company directly aiding such
an evil Government.

~~~
paul
You don't necessarily know what's going on in the US, for example:
<http://jwz.livejournal.com/745986.html>

I'm not claiming that the US and China are the same, btw, just that it's not a
matter of absolutes. In this country freedom is violated in the interests of
Disney and such.

~~~
gibsonf1
Can you give one example of a person put in jail or executed for their
political views in the US? One example of government forced censorship? The
difference between the US govt. and the Chinese is more than black and white.
You have the right to disagree with US policies - try complaining about
Chinese politcal policies in China and see what happens. This issue has no
gray.

The case shown in your posted link is not an example of political persecution
against the ISP. We have no information on the reason for the request by the
FBI, so I won't speculate. Even with an FBI gag order, the person made the
whole case public and went to court. Try that in China.

~~~
nostrademons
I was just in China on vacation last November, and in terms of the atmosphere
in public places, the U.S. almost seems like more of a police state than China
is. Some examples:

I had mistakenly packed scissors (y'know, sharp pointy things?) in my carry-on
when passing through the Beijing airport. The security guard said, politely
and apologetically, "I'm sorry, I can't let you take these on the plain." On
the trip back through Chicago/O'hare, a woman was yelled at and pulled out of
line for having _hand lotion_.

There are no announcements in Chinese airports saying "By order of the TSA, no
liquids may be carried on board flights, and all persons are subject to search
by uniformed TSA officers."

There are no announcements in Chinese subways saying "Safety is our number one
concern here on the MBTA, and so we ask you to report any suspicious persons
or packages to the nearest MBTA employee." People are not manhandled and
pulled off trains for talking about explosions, as happened to the person
sitting next to me yesterday.

Chinese people can and do criticize their government all they want - verbally.
Several people we met told us "Yeah, the government censorship is disgraceful,
but it takes time to change things like that." When we visited a Taoist temple
in Hong Kong, there were Falun Gong posters all over the place.

China's certainly not perfect, and overall I think its political freedom is
somewhat less than the U.S. The Chinese media is still very much controlled by
the state, and people _can_ have reprisals made against them for things they
say in print. The Internet is censored, as everyone knows by now. China lacks
the culture of dissent that the U.S. has, so many people seem accultured to
political passivity. China leads the world in executions, though it's worth
noting that only it, Iran, and Saudi Arabia have more executions than the U.S.

But it absolutely _is_ a matter of degrees. China is not _that_ much worse
than the U.S. is. And China's velocity is at least in the right direction: if
the U.S. continues the course it's been on since 2001, within 5 years it will
be a far more repressive regime than China.

~~~
gibsonf1
You probably didn't talk to jailed dissidents, the families of executed
political prisoners, the mothers who 's babys were killed because they went
beyond the child quota, the people who were forbidden to have another child,
the prisoners forced to work in factories, the prisoners killed to have their
organs harvested, etc. Vacation is one thing, but the evil of the government
is well documented.

Hong Kong used to be the freest country in the world prior to 1997, and it
enjoyed one of the greatest generations of wealth in the world because of that
freedom. Even their money was privately minted. I was fortunate enough to
visit before the hand over, and what an amazing place it was. That tradition
of freedom still lingers, but is being snuffed out. Those posters hidden away
in the temple would have been out in the streets in the earlier freer days.

Technology, like the search engine provided by Google, is giving the
government the power to keep the masses from doing what they should do -
overthrow the repressive regime. Another Tiannamen square will come, and the
regime will use any and all force to subdue it. Their only principle is
maintaining power - that has been their history and present and future until
they loose power.

Comparing this to the US system is dramatically misunderstanding and utterly
taking for granted the amazing freedom we have and the reasons for it. The
difference is in kind, not degree.

~~~
albertcardona
As a European living in the USA: the USA is much less free than any country in
Europe. But not for lack of noble laws, in which the USA excels, but rather,
for lack of public education that would entitle everyone to be aware and enjoy
such freedom.

Add to the above the blatant lack of equality in opportunity: if one's family
is not focused in providing an environment (and usually the funds too) to
foster a high education --by which I don't mean a university degree--, one is
screwed forever.

In short: high schools and undergraduate degrees in the USA _suck_ big time
(only at grad school does one see a proper, comparable level to Europe), and
parents wander clueless as to what is important to create self-sufficient,
independent and free adults.

~~~
lupin_sansei
"As a European living in the USA: the USA is much less free than any country
in Europe."

Not according to Freedom House. The US and most of Western Europe are equally
politically free: <http://www.freedomhouse.org/template.cfm?page=15>

And economically the US is freer than any country in Europe
<http://www.heritage.org/research/features/index/countries.cfm>

"lack of public education"

What are you talking about? The US has more than enough public schools.

"Add to the above the blatant lack of equality in opportunity"

Urban Myth. The per-capita GDP in the US is higher than almost every European
country. Around $10,000 more than France, the UK or Germany. So your average
US citizen is 30% wealthier than your average European.

Income inequality (assuming that's a bad thing) is only slightly lower in the
US than Europe too.

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_income_equality>

Also the US has a much higher proportion of the population with University
qualifications than most of Europe too:
<http://www.oecd.org/document/31/0,2340,en_2649_201185_33710751_1_1_1_1,00.html>

"In short: high schools and undergraduate degrees in the USA suck big time"

Could you back that up with some evidence?

~~~
albertcardona
"Not according to Freedom House."

The website you cite defines a Free Country as one where there is: 1) a broad
scope for open political competition, 2) a climate for respect of civil
liberties, 3) significant independent civic life, 4) independent media

The USA does not have 1 (locked two-party system with associated elite
families, if not in theory, at least in practice), 2 ( 9/11 related policies?
Federal agencies capturing information on citizens continuously?) and 4 (there
_was_ an independent media some decades ago, not anymore). 3 is allowed in
full only within the privacy of your home. Don't confuse economical prosperity
with freedom.

About "lack of public education": I am no native English speaker. I meant to
say, lack of education of the public. General culture levels are very low
among USA citizens. My data: you have no idea how many times I've been told
that Spain is in the north of Mexico, and not by Mexicans obviously. Plus how
many USA citizens can locate Iraq in a map? The statistics I've seen are
hilarious. Severe lacunae in geography and history among USA citizens is the
norm -even though my daily social environment is a university. Exceptions are
very much welcome, and I have found out they are almost all first-generation
americans with properly educated parents (by which I mean, their parents were
born elsewhere and came to the USA as adults).

If you get the GDP and remove the top 5% of rich people, the average citizens'
wealth changes _a lot_. But the main point is: if born poor and grown
uneducated, here in the USA the citizen is likely to remain poor and
uneducated. Where I come from, free access all the way up to PhD education is
the norm, then you're on your own and it's up to you, but at least the impact
of the socioeconomic status of one's parent's is removed from the equation
(not totally, but substantially).

In my daily experience at the university, senior undergraduate students show
the level of knowledge I am used to expect from freshmen, and the writing
skills of a 14 year old. There are exceptions of course. And it's good that
they catch-up during the first two years of graduate school. Something is
horribly wrong in the education USA citizens receive between ages 14 and 22.

~~~
busy_beaver
And yet here you are.

I'm curious: what made you decide to move to a country with no freedom, bad
education and no culture?

~~~
lupin_sansei
Good point! And hanging out on the forum of a company which explicitly helps
people start companies to freely get rich.

~~~
albertcardona
I came to the USA following a professor I just wanted to work with. He came
here in the 80's because of the weather (no kidding), given an existing
research environment similar to Europe.

Before landing here I thought the USA was a great country. But my
preconceptions have fallen.

I am aware I have started a thread that is drifting way off topic and can
potentially get very personal. If you'd like to discuss the issue further over
a beer, that'd be great. We can then talk about why I pay almost identical
income taxes in the USA and in Spain, and yet here my money doesn't seem to
come back to me. You can reach me at my surname at ucla edu.

~~~
lupin_sansei
"I am aware I have started a thread that is drifting way off topic and can
potentially get very personal"

You sound like a nice guy, I just hate these myths that the US is somehow a
hellhole compared to Europe. And you failed to demonstrate why the US is less
free than Europe.

"We can then talk about why I pay almost identical income taxes in the USA and
in Spain"

USA: top income tax rate and the top corporate tax rate are 35 percent.

Spain: top income tax rate is 45 percent, and the top corporate tax rate is 35
percent.

Now for the jugular (from heritage.org)!

USA: Unemployment: 5.5%, $39,676 per capita

Spain: Unemployment: 11%, GDP per capita $25,047

It would seem that Americans are almost twice as wealthy as Spaniards, pay
less income tax, and have more than half the unemployment.

