
You'll never be Chinese - ilamont
http://www.haohaoreport.com/l/37198?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=facebook
======
Jd
"A China that leads the world will not offer the chance to be Chinese, because
it is impossible to become Chinese. "

Of course. The British led the world and did not offer (at the time) anyone
the chance to be British either. In fact, they actively discouraged
interbreeding. It is a dogma of the modern Occident that it is stronger to be
multi-ethnic, and that national identity should be open to anyone. History
shows us, however, that that is hardly a necessity for world empire.

Full disclosure: I was once in love with a Chinese woman from an elite family,
who I am fairly certain loved me but rejected me because I did not belong to
the appropriate stock (with influence from her family). Lesson learned: if
love is strong, kinship bonds are often stronger.

~~~
msabalau
Of course, that we speak of "the British" is a testament to a certain level of
success of melding English/Scottish/Welsh identities, much of which happened
in the context of imperial endeavor. And certainly many other groups (Sepoys,
say) found their interests aligned at times with the imperial project, in a
way that outweighed their ethnic background.

Being open to a flexible interpretation of identity/citzenship (Brits, Romans)
or having a nominally universal ideology/religion (Americans, Islamic
caliphates) seems like it be a large help in successful world leadership, even
if it's not a prerequisite.

~~~
philwelch
> a certain level of success

From the outside. On the inside, I think most Britons identify more as
English, Scottish, or Welsh than British. Scotland and Wales live under the
semi-official delusion that they are actually "countries" in some meaningful
way, not just autonomous subdivisions of the UK, and even compete separately
in international sporting events outside of the Olympics. Even forming a
unified soccer team for the Olympics that the UK itself is hosting was a
source of significant controversy.

~~~
scott_w
The controversy mostly stemmed from the potential effects of running a British
football team, particularly regarding the UK's status within FIFA.

The home nations each have a representative within FIFA, UEFA and IFAB, as
well as being able to compete individually, and collectively enter more club
teams into the UEFA Champions League. This causes some tension with other
countries, who see the UK as a single country that wields undue influence in
the global game.

If the UK establishes its own football team for the purposes of the Olympics,
then there is a fear that FIFA would use this as an excuse to shut down the
Scottish, Welsh and Northern Irish FAs and force them to fold into the FA.
This is the reason Scotland refused to allow its players to be picked for the
Olympics.

~~~
philwelch
The Scottish FA never had the power to "refuse to allow" anything, there just
weren't any Scottish players worth calling up. The Welsh FA made the same
statements but that didn't stop Welsh players from being called up.

Britain's status in FIFA demonstrates just how poorly the notion of a
"British" national identity has taken hold.

------
strebler
This is definitely one of the better (and more accurate) articles on the
subject. I have been doing business in China and definitely see his view -
it's easy to see why most of China's elite send their children abroad. I
wouldn't live there for an extended period.

I'd say their education system (and society) tends to hammer the creativity
out of people. I see strong evidence that who think differently are ridiculed.
Only the strongest personalities could withstand this, and it is obvious that
they often leave for greener pastures. Nurturing the free thinkers is not
easy.

Superpower & housing bubble aside, first they have to figure out things like
why having seatbelts in cars is important - that the individual is in fact
valuable.

~~~
wensheng
When I was in China, i often ride in friends' cars. The first thing I do when
I get in cars is buckling up, and I'm often ridiculed for fearing of death (i
really am). Twice I sit on the passenger side and tried to put the seatbelt
plate into buckle but I couldn't, because there's already a key holder in
there. I learned since no passenger wear seat-belt, the driver just put the
key holder there to silence the warning noise, they already have key holders
in on driver's side.

~~~
travisp
This isn't just a Chinese thing. I've experienced it personally in Russia, and
I've heard of it in other countries too.

~~~
to3m
It's an everywhere thing. Before seatbelts were compulsory in the UK, people
used not to wear them there either. You'd have to talk to somebody who was an
adult at the time - probably not many of those round here - to get the
definitive answer, but I distinctly remember being confused by adults often
failing to put their seatbelts on, even for quite some time after seatbelts
became compulsory.

~~~
justincormack
Yes thats true. I think the warnings in cars have gradually changed this and
there are few holdouts now. (I didnt realize it was only 1983 they were made
compulsory, so I was 14 then)

------
jisaacstone
Take a moment and conciser how a similar piece, written of the United states
around the turn of the last century, might read.

Remember the 'roaring 20s?' Materialistic society, ambivalence about foreign
affairs, widespread corruption, distrust of foreigners. A Chinese who owned a
tea shop in a small town may well have to beg for a renewed lease, yes?

Well, China is not the United States, but lets put things in perspective. At
the moment neither the leaders nor the people of China want to be a 'world
leader' so why do we keep talking about it as if they do? China has its own
problems and most Chinese are well aware of it.

China is not yet a rich country. Its Per Capita GDP (PPP) is about the same as
Ecuador or Belize.

Right now things in China are not so great. It seems the Conservatives are
back in power and so there has been some increased restrictions of freedom
after a couple decades of improvement. Corruption continues to be a problem.
The price of groceries, as well as property, has been increasing.

But the overall trend is upward. The author of this piece has fallen afoul of
the Guanxi networks of business and politics in China. Sorry, yes, they don't
play fair. But I am hopeful at the turn of the next century China will be as
prosperous and egalitarian as my own United States of America.

~~~
mcantelon
>Sorry, yes, they don't play fair. But I am hopeful at the turn of the next
century China will be as prosperous and egalitarian as my own United States of
America.

Why would a one-party system evolve into being egalitarian? The US has
devolved into being more or less ruled by lobbyists. The egalitarian phase in
the US was largely due to workers being economically valuable and hence useful
to maintain physically and mentally. China, however, has a surplus of workers.

~~~
jisaacstone
False. Factories are having increasing difficulty in retaining workers and are
therefore having to either raise wages, improve conditions, or bully them into
submission. Supply and demand, no?

Demand is currently high.

Things are not great for workers, but there is hardly a surplus anymore.

~~~
mcantelon
Good to hear.

------
timee
"The pressure makes children sick. I speak from personal experience. To score
under 95 per cent is considered failure. Bad performance is punished."

I grew up in that culture in America having a Chinese mother and belonging to
the local Chinese community. The interesting aspect to it, is that it
represents a curve as everyone gets a 97+ on their tests. It felt like 97 was
the median in the class. It just happened to be instead of having scores from
50-100, you had them compressed from 90-100. Scoring below a 90 is equivalent
to getting an F in the local Chinese community as only a few ever scored that
low.

I personally appreciate having gone through that and all the brainwashing that
occurred with that mindset. I know one of my strengths is the ability to work
well under pressure, where often my motivation is correlated with pressure.
While I never made the connection in college, I innately understood the curve
and how to play the game due to being curved at a young age.

The worry I have at times with correlating motivation with difficulty is
whether I am creating an invalid proxy for value. Sometimes the work leads to
something of value, but they are not directly linked as there are plenty of
difficult things out there that generate little value to society and oneself.

That said, bringing it back to the OP's concern about his children's
education, I don't know what it's like to go through a full Chinese system as
I highly appreciate the mixture of Western education in my upbringing. I had a
nervous breakdown in high school after realizing the falseness of my quest I
had around accomplishments and achievements. If it weren't for the liberal
arts of Western culture (arts, music, and literature), I don't know how I
would have came out of that mental breakdown. I began to value the Renaissance
man who was balanced in a variety of topics and sought the balance of
academics, the arts and social skills. I wonder if it weren't for those
concepts, if I would have trained myself to seek higher and higher goals in
mastery over academics as I saw with some of my childhood friends who had a
stricter Chinese upbringing.

------
mmagin
Direct link: [http://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/politics/mark-kitto-
youll-...](http://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/politics/mark-kitto-youll-never-
be-chinese-leaving-china/)

------
Shenglong
Bitterly biased.

The China that the author describes is not the China I've seen. Housing prices
may be high, but he neglects to mention that it's common for companies to
provide housing to their employees. Yes, people will ask you about your money
- but that's culture, and it's not impolite.

There are a lot of untruths in his article, but it's too long to pick apart. A
big one, though, is about appreciation for foreigners. China does in fact have
laws about foreigners, but most are designed to protect them and avoid
international incidents. For example, several schools around the Shaolin
Temple offer practical training in everything from hand-to-hand combat to
spears to swords. Only three, however, have passed safety regulations to
accept foreigners. The Chinese also likes to tell you that you're special,
because they think it endears you to them, whether it's true or not.

I'll end by saying: it's hard to judge China through a western perspective.

~~~
seanmcdirmid
Companies still provide housing? Are you serious? That went out with the 90s
in the big cities! And even then, how many people actually work for the
government or an SOE qualify for this housing provided by the company?

Its very easy to judge China through a western perspective; you just say "it
was judged through a western perspective." Judging is always relative to a
perspective and is useful to evaluate your situation. The author's article is
not meant for Chinese, perhaps, but for other foreigners, and therefore its
useful and not "bitterly biased."

Foreigner laws in China are designed to protect us? Ya, by not letting our
kids go to any but the most expensive international schools? By making us re-
register with our local PSB whenever we go on a business trip? By limiting how
we can spend our money..which we earned in China and paid (high) Chinese taxes
on? By making us pay social security taxes and then telling us we will only
see that money at all if we work here for 15 years?

Why do Chinese always take criticism on China so personally as a face problem?
Its common western practice to criticize something that you don't think is
working right, we just treat China as an equal topic in that regard. Its not
an attack, its just commentary.

~~~
Shenglong
I'm not taking offense in a patriotic stance. I'm offended because it's plain
incorrect. I don't know if we're arguing the same thing, but I'm saying
looking at China from a western perspective is misleading, and leads you to
formulate judgments that are based on slanted information. It's much like how
the average citizen believes he's knowledgeable about the economy.

It's still commonplace for companies to provide housing. I'm not sure how I
can prove this to you, other than asking you to go to China, or read it in
Chinese.

 _"Foreigner laws in China are designed to protect us? Ya, by not letting our
kids go to any but the most expensive international schools? By making us re-
register with our local PSB whenever we go on a business trip? By limiting how
we can spend our money..which we earned in China and paid (high) Chinese taxes
on? By making us pay social security taxes and then telling us we will only
see that money at all if we work here for 15 years?"_

Their schools and our schools aren't the same. If you sent your kid to a
regular Chinese school, do you expect the same treatment as Chinese kids get?
Is it okay for their teachers to hit your kids if they misbehave? Perhaps
you'd like the rest of the kids to pretend like your kid was Chinese, even
though their culture isn't as multicultural as ours.

I don't know what your complaint with the PSB registration is about. It takes
two minutes, and other countries do very similar things. They're keeping track
of foreigners in their country. USA, Canada - we all do it, just through
different ways. Only difference is, there's an order of magnitude in
population difference. I remember, actually, when I went to school in the USA,
I had 10x more paperwork to fill out than going to China (I'm Canadian).

USA and Canada also limit the amount of money you can spend before you're
horribly taxed. This isn't unique to China. I've never paid Chinese social
insurance, so I honestly can't say. All I know is, I'm paying social security
in Canada, and by the time I use it, it's going to be (probably) gone.

~~~
kaptain
PSB registration does not take two minutes, literally or figuratively. I was
at the 出入境 for about an hour two weeks ago. This one visit was one of many
visits. Yesterday, I went to register at the local 派出所. I was the only person
there. They processed all my documents (three passports) in one hour.

I should amend my statement above: PSB registration does not take two minutes
_for me_. You are fortunate that it only takes two minutes for you (I am
assuming you mean figuratively, though if you are being literal I am even more
envious).

China is a big country. There are places in China where the administration is
very efficient and effective. Most places are not. I say this from personal
experience and from the experience of others who don't live in large,
developed cities. Some generalizations are accurate, but like any
generalization, the veracity may vary from your own local experience.

~~~
reedlaw
At a hotel where they are supposed to register for you it might take 2
minutes. But in my experience it takes anywhere from half a day to a week in
smaller city. Half a day is the minimum because you get directed from one
place to another and wait in lines. A week is how long it could take of you're
missing anything they require such as a photo. Yes, it varies widely.

------
205guy
Very interesting read of one person's (very credible) opinions about China.
Yet...

The title is a tautology. I can't help but feel that anyone from country X
will every be integrated into any other country, _as long as they still want
to be themselves._ Which is what the author never really states. Had he bought
into the materialistic lifestyle, asked everyone how much money they made, and
insisted his kids cram for elementry school exams, and toed the party line
(whatever that may be), then maybe he would've been considered Chinese (I bet
he'd say you still wouldn't but he didn't even consider that possibility). But
no, he wanted to be a Westerner in China, and by definition, never become
Chinese.

I lived in Europe for half of my life before age 30. I was fluent and mistaken
for a native of the country where I lived. Yet, I could not help but retain my
American perspective; I don't think I could give that up even if I wanted to.
So even if I blended into the culture and wanted be a native, I could not
_feel_ like one myself. I came "home" to the US and don't feel American
anymore either--I think that will be the author's fate in Britain. I have
American friends still there, native by any standard, yet still consider
themselves American by choice.

So I think it comes down to giving up one's identifying culture. The ironic
thing, is that Chinese (and many other foreigners) do it all the time when
they immigrate to the West. To me, that is the quandary of immigration: how do
they manage to embrace the host culture so much that they no longer identify
with their native one. It seems so much easier to do from East (India, China)
to West (US, mostly). It seems like it's much easier to go from a culture of
community to one of individuality than vice-versa. Why is there a lack of
symmetry?

~~~
light3
I think a big reason is ease of integration/life - many Chinese people find
life to be easier when they immigrate to the West. Life can be very very
competitive in China - relationships are often necessary, complex and by
definition numerous.

------
vph
The author seems to suggest that the main problem -- as suggested by the title
-- is that the Chinese are strongly anti-foreigners. This might be true. But I
don't think it's why his business was robbed.

The main problem, I think, is the Chinese's jungle-ruled platform associated
with its single-party tyranny. What happens is they will invite you in and
give you lots of promises and flexibilities at first. They will learn from
you. And when you get too big, they will change the rules to favor their owns,
and kick you out, robbing you if necessary. It's not so much that you're a
Caucasian foreigner.

I believe that a lot of outside investors and companies will eventually
(unless they are big) find out that doing business with the Chinese will end
up looking like this person. I am not anti-Chinese as a people or a culture,
but I have seen this type story again and again.

~~~
mcantelon
It's similar to building a web property dependent on another company's APIs.
You are ultimately in a vulnerable position.

------
iag
Very insightful article. I feel more worried about the Chinese housing bubble
crash than anything else. You think the '07 US recession was bad? That'd be a
walk in the park if China's bubble bursts.

~~~
wensheng
Don't worry, the government will never let the crash happen. Plus they are
trying "tightening" the housing now. Stagnating might be a better word:
neither let price fall nor let it rise too fast.

~~~
smacktoward
_Don't worry, the government will never let the crash happen_

My bet would be these words were uttered right before every crash in
history...

~~~
tsotha
Yeah, the US government did its damnest to prevent the housing crash in the
US, and they have a lot more money and experience with markets than the
Chinese do. When the Chinese bubble pops it's going to blow the social fabric
of the country apart.

------
tokenadult
As Confucius said, 三人行，必有我師焉 ("wherever three persons are walking, my teacher
is surely among them"). This is a very interesting article for an American who
has lived in east Asia for two three-year stays (mostly in Taiwan) and who has
been learning the Chinese language since 1975. Much of what has been said
about China in the first decade of the twenty-first century reminds me very
much of what was said about Japan in the 1980s--that it was destined to be the
leading nation of the world. Today, demographics and looking behind the
official economic statistics, and considering that China has not yet
democratized as much as Japan had in the era when the Liberal Democratic Party
had a lock on national power all suggest that China is most likely to have a
"lost decade" that continues into two or more lost decades as China's economic
growth fails to keep pace with the Chinese regime's world power ambitions.
Political unrest is an ongoing fear of the Communist Party of China regime,
and there is little to suggest that Chinese "soft power" can overcome the
misgivings of neighboring countries (e.g. India, Vietnam, and South Korea)
that remember being invaded by Chinese armies in the recent past.

It is possible to become an American. I have seen it done. My wife, out of all
the girls I knew when I first lived in Taiwan, was the LEAST interested in
gaining a green card or even living in the United States as a student until we
had occasion to enter the United States (her first occasion ever) as a married
couple after a year of married life in Taiwan. Over time, she has become a
Minnesotan American by choice rather than by birth, and indeed we have spent
far more time in the United States than I had ever imagined possible when I
first planned my adult life as an American with a university degree in Chinese
language. There have been great opportunities for us in America and much that
my wife can cherish even though none of her primary or secondary education was
intended to prepare her for life in the United States, and none of my higher
education was intended as anything but preparation for living in east Asia.
The United States is open to immigrants, accepting of cultural diversity, and
a second home for many people that becomes a more meaningful home than their
first home. That acceptance of outside influence is America's strength, and
why the United States and not China will be the superpower of the twenty-first
century.

What the United States can learn from China (but even more so from Taiwan,
Japan, and South Korea) is better provision of elementary education in
government-operated primary schools, particularly in the subjects of
mathematics and science. Native-born Americans like me who have lived in east
Asia are APPALLED at the wasted opportunities that United States schools have
with their lavish resources to provide a truly world-class education. United
States schools do not do as badly as they possibly could, but they also don't
do as well as they reasonably could be expected to do. Let's learn from
China's best examples here in the United States. Meanwhile, I hope that the
common people of China eventually learn from other democratized countries of
east Asia how to come out from under a one-party dictatorship and to enjoy
uncensored mass media, free elections, and a vigorous civil society.

~~~
w1ntermute
> Native-born Americans like me who have lived in east Asia are APPALLED at
> the wasted opportunities that United States schools have with their lavish
> resources to provide a truly world-class education. United States schools do
> not do as badly as they possibly could, but they also don't do as well as
> they reasonably could be expected to do.

I know this is a popular refrain about American education, but it's only a
half-truth. The only real direct, objective comparisons between different
countries' educational systems are based on data from identical tests
administered across those nations. However, as the results from the PISA[0]
indicate, Americans rank near the top of their respective ethnic groups when
they are separated in that manner. That is to say, American students of
European descent are near the top of the charts when compared to European
students, American students of Asian descent are near the top of the charts
when compared to Asian students, etc.

This also applies to American students of African and Hispanic descent.
However, students in African and Hispanic countries do so much worse than
students in European and Asian countries that despite the American students of
those ethnicities performing better than students in those countries, they
still bring down the average American score below that of most European and
Asian nations.

What this tells us is not that the American education system is just plain
bad. Quite the opposite - take a student from anywhere in the world, and on
average, he or she will receive a better education in America. The _real_
problem is that our education system fails to provide an equal quality of
education to all of our children.

As you probably already know, this result is because our public education
system is funded by local taxes, and our car-based society allows us to
geographically isolate us from the poor, who are overwhelmingly of African and
Hispanic descent. Thus, the African and Hispanic students end up going to
public schools that are poorly funded because their parents are poor, trapping
Americans of African and Hispanic descent in a cycle of poverty.

The solution to this problem is not apparent, as attempts to integrate schools
along socioeconomic & ethnic lines just results in the wealthy voting to
defund public schools and sending their children to expensive private schools
instead.

0: [http://super-economy.blogspot.com/2010/12/amazing-truth-
abou...](http://super-economy.blogspot.com/2010/12/amazing-truth-about-pisa-
scores-usa.html)

~~~
vacri
From your linkd article: "So much for the bigoted notions that Americans are
dumb and Europeans are smart." > "There are 3 parts to the PISA test, Reading,
Math, and Science."

There is more to an education than reading, math, and science. The US is
particularly famous for frequently forgetting that other countries even exist.
Most of the Anglo world (including, but not just US) is seen with some
derision in Europe for being so proudly monoglot. A comment of "My god, that
person was so dumb" is usually about their lack of worldliness, not their
skill with calculus.

 _Quite the opposite - take a student from anywhere in the world, and on
average, he or she will receive a better education in America_

The people that get to immigrate to the US are the best and brightest,
otherwise they don't get in. It's unsurprising that their children perform
well. Yes, the US education system is far better than the third world's (what
a boast!) but even if you're talking about Finnish immigrants, they're not
going to be unskilled louts. The mere fact that they're allowed in means that
they have already passed a bar.

I agree that the real problem is the disparity and locally-sourced funding for
schools, but that doesn't mean that there's no problem with the curriculum
across the board. There are squillions of articles out there bemoaning all
aspects of the US school system's race to teach the test rather than provide
an education.

I think that probably the most telling is when you hear of tertiary educators
saying that they have to dumb down intro subjects and teach students the
skills they used to get in high school - things as simple as how to construct
an essay (which doesn't sound like it's an objective 'reading, math, science'
measure)

~~~
w1ntermute
> There is more to an education than reading, math, and science. The US is
> particularly famous for frequently forgetting that other countries even
> exist. Most of the Anglo world (including, but not just US) is seen with
> some derision in Europe for being so proudly monoglot. A comment of "My god,
> that person was so dumb" is usually about their lack of worldliness, not
> their skill with calculus.

I won't deny the lack of language learning in the US, which is something that
I find disturbing, particularly with the "flattening" of the world in recent
years. However, I firmly believe that it has nothing to do with the education
system. The real problem (if you can call it that) is that Anglophone
countries don't _need_ to learn any other languages. The reason why Europeans
can speak foreign languages (most often English) is because they _need_ to.

Moreover, if you live in an Anglophone country (particularly America, and I'd
expect Australia is similar too, due to its linguistic isolation), there just
aren't very many chances to _practice_ a language even if you learn it. I know
the public schools where I grew up required students to learn foreign
languages (and they usually learned Spanish), but most of them forgot the
language within a year of stopping classes, because they never got a chance to
use it. This situation may very well change with the rapidly growing Hispanic
population in the US.

OTOH, if you live in a non-Anglophone country, you're _constantly_ bombarded
with all kinds of media in English - on the web, in print, and on the silver
screen. This effect is amplified in countries that speak languages with
relatively small numbers of speakers. For example, the postage stamp-sized
countries of northern Europe are more fluent in English than southern European
countries such as France, Spain, and Italy, and a big reason for this is that
their small size means that there is less domestic media to consume, so they
turn to Angolophone content.

> There are squillions of articles out there bemoaning all aspects of the US
> school system's race to teach the test rather than provide an education.

Once again, I think this is largely a function of the quality of the school.
Having graduated from a public high school in an affluent district after the
turn of the millenium, I can say that contemporary US public schools do _not_
solely teach to the test if the students are primarily wealthy suburbanites.
We received plenty of stimulating education and in college we were thrown
straight into the deep end of the pool, with lots of graduate-level material
that we didn't understand for quite a while, a far cry from the reteaching of
high school material that everyone says is happening. Then again, that's only
my personal experience.

------
wtrk
The (unframed) article: [http://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/politics/mark-
kitto-youll-...](http://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/politics/mark-kitto-youll-
never-be-chinese-leaving-china/)

------
lionhearted
Hmm. A strange article. A mix of really good points soaked in bitterness.

I spend the bulk of my time in Beijing, Taipei, and Ulaanbaatar (Mongolia). My
take is slightly different.

Well, a lot is true. The property thing, definitely. The state industry
takeovers is scary; you have to get a sense for what industries they don't
mind foreigners in, and which they do. Media? Yeah, you don't want to own a
media company in China as a non-Chinese. The same is true with energy and raw
materials. Probably not true for manufacturing, education, and consumer goods.
So, that's a weird and surreal and true point.

But some things seem dead-off. The Chinese seem _much_ more community oriented
than the West. On mornings I'm up early, there's always large groups of people
doing Tai Chi, or moving around doing a sword-dance, or other group exercises.
Likewise, there's huge groups of people singing, dancing, waltzing, in the
evenings. Families go out and play together a lot. At least, that's what I see
in CBD in Beijing.

The thing about the Chinese loving money and size is true. It's not as bleak
as it sounds though, it's probably similar to 1950's America in that sense.
You've got people who were raised lower on Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs, so
they're very pro-money and pro-security. It's all pretty upfront, and everyone
is in to hard work, credentialing, and earning well. My friend is married to a
Chinese woman, and we were working something like 12+ hours a day for a while.
Since his work/life balance was totally destroyed on the projects we were on,
I apologized to her one day at their house. "Hey, sorry we're working so
much..." and she replies: "You're making money?" I say, "Yeah, we're making
money." She says: "Okay! No problem then, keep making money! I'm glad you two
are doing it!" They named their cat "Wangtzai" (spelling?), which translates
to "Bring money." Yeah, they named their cat "Bring money." But they're also
happy and have a good home life together. She just respects working a lot and
wants her husband to work a lot. That's where she's at mentally.

This part struck me as the most off --

> [China] does not welcome intruders—unless they happen to be militarily
> superior and invade from the north, as did two imperial dynasties, the Yuan
> (1271-1368) and the Qing (1644-1911), who became more Chinese than the
> Chinese themselves. Moreover, the fates of the Mongols, who became the Yuan,
> and Manchu, who became the Qing, provide the ultimate deterrent: “Invade us
> and be consumed from the inside,” rather like the movie Alien.

It's not like "Alien" -- it's more like, China was so much more artistically
and culturally sophisticated that even invaders assimilated the conquered
culture, and happily so. It's little known that the Mongols (Yuan) built the
Forbidden City at first. It was called "Forbidden" since it was Mongolian-
only, preserving some of Mongolian Steppe Culture even within China. Likewise,
Mandarin is the Manchu language... the ethnic minority that conquered China
and became the Qing. The Han (majority) now speaks the minority's language,
since it was widely spoken in courts and high level administration under the
Qing Dynasty.

But why did the Manchu become more Han-like and base out of Beijing? Because
it was a pretty amazing place, and by and large it always has been.

I don't know, maybe I'll get China-fatigue at some point. I agree with his
point that you'll never be really truly Chinese in China, but foreigners also
get all kinds of additional respect and benefits for being foreign, along with
a tacit okay to break certain customs and decorums because you don't know
better. For foreigners in China who speak Chinese, it's even better -- you get
delight from everyone you interact with, and lots of respect (arguably,
undeservedly so)... so yeah, it's good and bad. The article comes across
overly jaded, though I suppose the idea to not start a media company or buy
residential housing are both good pieces of advice!

~~~
w1ntermute
> Likewise, Mandarin is the Manchu language... the ethnic minority that
> conquered China and became the Qing. The Han (majority) now speaks the
> minority's language

Say what? Mandarin Chinese was originally spoken by Han Chinese only and is
_nothing_ like the original language spoken by the Manchu (save for a few
loanwords). The Manchu language is from the Tungusic language family, and has
absolutely no genealogical relation to Mandarin or any other Sino-Tibetan
languages.

As it says on Wikipedia[0]:

> By the end of the 19th century the [Manchu] language was so moribund that
> even at the office of the Shengjing (Shenyang) general, the only documents
> written in Manchu (rather than Chinese) would be the memorials wishing the
> emperor long life; at the same time period, the archives of the Hulan banner
> detachment in Heilongjiang show that only 1% of the bannermen could read
> Manchu, and no more than 0.2% could speak it.

Manchu now has ~20 native speakers, with its closest non-endangered relative
being Xibe, with ~30,000 native speakers[1].

0:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manchu_language#History_and_si...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manchu_language#History_and_significance)

1: <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xibe_language>

~~~
wensheng
Mandarin is not totally unrelated to Manchu. There are a lot of loan words in
Mandarin from Manchu, for example, 姑娘, 罗嗦, 邋遢, 马虎, 麻利, 别扭, and lots of other
common phrases. More importantly, Mandarin is heavily influenced by Manchu in
other ways, for example, tones. Southern languages like Cantonese, Minnan have
more tones (Cantonese 9, Minnan 8, vs Mandarin 5). Some Chinese believe
Mandarin is a language polluted/reduced by Manchu, and they consider southern
languages to be more elegant and culturally richer and purer. Cantonese lost
to Mandarin by a single vote during the selection of "official" language of
China in 1912.[1]

[1] <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yue_Chinese#Twentieth_century>

~~~
w1ntermute
> There are a lot of loan words in Mandarin from Manchu, for example, 姑娘, 罗嗦,
> 邋遢, 马虎, 麻利, 别扭, and lots of other common phrases.

And I acknowledged them. Similarly, southern Chinese languages feature
borrowings from Tai, Austro-Asiatic, and Austronesian languages.

Sanskrit is another source of borrowings for many Chinese languages, due to
the influence of Buddhism. The word "Mandarin", coincidentally, comes from the
Sanskrit word _mantrin_ (मन्त्रिन्), meaning "minister" or "councillor",
although that is not used in Mandarin itself to refer to the language.

So it's not just Mandarin that has been influenced by foreign languages. The
borrowing of words is very common when two languages come into contact. A
prime example is the internet-speak used by Chinese netizens, which is replete
with English-based neologisms.

However, that doesn't change the fact that modern Mandarin overwhelmingly
bears more similarity to Classical Chinese than it does to Manchu.

> More importantly, Mandarin is heavily influenced by Manchu in other ways,
> for example, tones. Southern languages like Cantonese, Minnan have more
> tones (Cantonese 9, Minnan 8, vs Mandarin 5).

Do you have any proof that Manchu influence is the reason for Mandarin's
relative paucity of tones in comparison to southern Chinese languages? Middle
Chinese, which goes back nearly a millenium before the advent of the Qing
dynasty, already had only 4 tones[0]. According to the relationship between
Middle Chinese tones and modern Mandarin tones[1], the 4 tones of modern
Mandarin are descended from the Ping (平), Shang (上), and Qu (去) tones of
Middle Chinese, with some redistribution according to consonant type.

> Some Chinese believe Mandarin is a language polluted/reduced by Manchu, and
> they consider southern languages to be more elegant and culturally richer
> and purer.

And one of the major proximal causes of this is the loss of tones, since it's
lead to homophonic ambiguity, which has been corrected through the formation
of polysyllabic neologisms, which break many millenia-old connections with
Classical Chinese. It's not just the addition of Manchu vocabulary and/or
phrases.

0: <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_tones>

1:
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_Chinese_phonology#Rela...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_Chinese_phonology#Relationship_between_Middle_Chinese_and_modern_tones)

~~~
wensheng
>Do you have any proof that Manchu influence is the reason for Mandarin's
relative paucity of tones in comparison to southern Chinese languages?

It's very hard to prove. There are materials from Qing Dynasty that still have
the 入(entering) tone, this indicate the tone disappeared sometime during the
late Qing. But others hold belief that the northern language lost the entering
tone long before Qing, maybe as early as Yuan.

------
andrewcooke
we do tend to project our own desires on other people. i remember a colleague
telling me how disappointed he was with chile because the same people who had
overthrown a fascist dictator were now interested in worldly things like cars
and clothes.

there's something of that in this article, i think.

also, it's very hard to be neutral when you live in a place. and living in a
foreign place _is_ hard (more for some than others, of course). it's easy to
bear grudges, no matter how aware you are that "it's just cultural
differences".

huh. voted down for that? sigh...

------
analyst74
Even though Chinese ideals/opinions tend to be NOT as diversified as, say
Canadians, doesn't mean all Chinese think the same.

Some of the main causes, and by no means the only causes for "racism":

1, those you don't understand, you don't trust -- vast of Chinese have not met
many foreigners and Chinese culture tend to differ greatly from western
cultures.

2, as noted, China is a very segregated country, you get discriminated against
for all sorts of reasons. But if you are from a powerful American family, you
will find your respect in China; if you are a poor China man, even your
(slightly better off) neighbours would look down upon you.

Same reason Jd's love could not marry him, she will not marry another China
man either, if he is not from a respectable family or occupying a respectable
position.

On a final note, I don't believe in racism. Not that racism does not exist,
but it's too easy of an explanation for your misfortunes; It's too easy to
blame something you cannot change and call it a day. Real life is a lot more
complex than that, and it's best to look for resolvable problems and fix them,
increasing your chance of success, than to blame someone else.

~~~
2old4startups
Good points. Just a reminder though - i am sure you know this - that "China
man" is a derogatory term for Chinese and has a racist tone to it.

------
fring0
It's funny to see more of these articles about China where westerners get
their panties in a bunch when they find themselves in a similar situation most
other people have been in with respect to the west. I should write a similar
article about my American/European dream. I hope the Chinese are able to take
criticism better than the west. Westerners can't get over their superiority
complex.

~~~
enraged_camel
>>I hope the Chinese are able to take criticism better than the west.
Westerners can't get over their superiority complex.<<

Actually, most Chinese people I've met, especially those who were born and
raised in mainland China, have a massive superiority complex. In every type of
discussion comparing the West to China, they keep bringing it up the fact that
China has thousands of years of history, and has invented things like
gunpowder. Most of them view the West - especially America - with
condescension and contempt.

~~~
Ingaz
Russian people of Soviet era had the same complex.

We were taught that we have best science, culture, sport, military and most
progressive state. Also we were strong but good, not as "prokliatye
imperialisty" ("cursed imperialists")

It evaporated in '90s, but not completely - I often hear "we were ...."

Jerome K. Jerome wrote about the same complex in British people. If I recall
correctly that must be in "Diary of a Pilgrimage"

~~~
light3
I hear that Russia still has the best mathematicians. Culturally Russia was at
the forefront of music/opera - just see the famous violinist of the 20th
centuary. I read though in Nathan Milstein's biography that he fled the Stalin
regime which stifled art in Russia.

------
kaptain
What does it mean to be Chinese?

Technically, there is no Chinese ethnicity. China is made up of (officially)
56 ethnicities. My parents are ethnically Han Chinese. I was born in Canada,
raised in America. I carry an American passport. To my neighbors, I'm a 华侨
(overseas Chinese); one taxi driver told me that I would be Chinese forever
because it's in my blood. So what am I? Moving from the questions of
ethnicity, is it possible for a foreigner to immigrate to China and become a
Chinese citizen? I suspect the answer is 'no' but I have heard (perhaps from
the internet) that one _can_ become a citizen at the invitation of the Chinese
government. It seems, being Chinese has more to do with ethnicity AND culture
than anything else.

While some may deride China for being parochial/uncosmopolitan for this, many
countries share this same trait: the majority ethnicity defines citizenship
and acceptance. The United States isn't immune from this. Even though I grew
up an American (and still consider myself American) I have experienced
personal bias and prejudice because of my ethnicity. I got comments from kids
about me going to Buddhist church (I'm not Buddhist), using karate in a fight
(I don't know any form of martial arts), using chopsticks (this is true), or
speaking "Ching chong, ching chong" (I am not familiar with this language).
High school was hard. Not that it wasn't for any of my white friends who
shared the same weight/height/car/popularity class as me, but none of them
were ever told to "Go home."

The big "but" here is that I live/lived in the United States. And though there
is a history of disenfranchisement as well as evidence of racial bias today, I
am more hopeful that _you_ (whoever you are) /can/ become American... not by
becoming 'white', but by participating in a society that has the opportunity
to change itself as well as the opportunity to change you.

It's not clear to me that this is possible in China (i.e. social change to
embrace differing ethnicities). The average Chinese (pick any of the Chinese
ethnicities) person has very strong feelings about one's identity as it
relates to race and language (e.g. some people couldn't believe I was Chinese
and couldn't speak Mandarin when I first got to China). In my first trip to
China, I made a friend who relayed me this interesting anecdote (this was the
late 90's): he (an American) was on a college campus and he engaged in a
discussion about race relations in America with a Chinese student. The Chinese
student told him: "There is no racism in China because there aren't any black
people." While the ethnic tensions aren't _as_ visible here, simply ask a Han
person how they feel about Uyghers.

~~~
noname123
To be Chinese is to be 'jing' - to put it negatively, it means to be
calculating, materialistic and ruthlessly advancing one's agenda; to put it
positively, it means that you are constantly trying to improve yourself and be
resourceful.

As 1.5 generation American-Chinese, I used to hate Chinese culture for its
'jing'-ness and rebelled it by going to a liberal arts college and reading
Jack Kerouac, subscribing to the hippie culture etc. What I realized is that
American culture, beneath its veil of "creativity" and "open society" is
nothing but a cover for human selfishness universal in every society.

Most of my friends from college gone to Teach for America or PeaceCorps have
done it for social currency - as much as my Chinese friends have gunned for
Goldman Sachs/Microsoft for Chinese social currency. Of course, predictably,
five years ago, these TfA and PeaceCorps grads are now enrolled dutifully in
medical school or law school. European colonialism's "holier-than-thou"
attitude is now baked subtly in that you may have the technical/economical
prowess, but you yet don't have the renaissance quality. It's just as bad as
the Chinese mindset of being judgmental by asking what school you went to and
how much money you make.

Personally I've embraced the 'Chinese jing'. I don't think I'm better than any
Chinese mainlander, I'm a shameless Chinese guy who's trying to make the
biggest buck, get the hottest chick in the club, get the most prestige/respect
in my field, destroy my enemies and don't give a f __k about who gets hurt in
my path. My only one redeeming quality is honesty (to myself) - which is why
Westerners will never be Chinese.

~~~
light3
I don't understand the last sentence - honesty to self seems to be more an
individual virtue as opposed to a cultural virtue.

~~~
noname123
Yes, China is now more individualistic than America because people are forced
to be.

On the superficial level, Chinese may seem to be socially conservative and
study math/science to the wishes of parents, etc. But on a deeper level,
modern Chinese are extremely selfish, there was a little girl who was hit in a
hit-and-run in a major city in central China during mid-day and no one helped
her for hours while she laid there dying. This is quite morbid to Westerner
values, but the Chinese rationale is "if I help her, the person who hit her
has already run away; she might pin me for the hit-and-run because she needs
to sue someone for her damage."

Individualism here implies self-protection and ruthless advancement of
personal agenda for money and power; it's quite different from the American
ideal of individualism of finding and pursuing one's passion and vision.
However, my point is that both the Chinese and Americans ideals, are actually
the same thing in different dressings, it's just Chinese are more honest about
it because of economical scarcities.

~~~
light3
This is really interesting, the case of the girl you described certainly isn't
new phenomenon. I lived with my parents in China up until 1993, and back then
this was also a common situation, someone would be dying on the street but for
hours nobody will help. I distinctly remember arriving in Australia to find
people will help out strangers on the street that are in trouble, it was very
different to how things are in China.

I'm not sure how far this phenomenon goes back, but the idea behind the
thinking is that helping might bring great trouble upon yourself - part
superstition and part selfishness. I remember when was around 5 and I saw this
other kid who was starving, I had pity on him and wanted to give him some
food, but I remember my mother stopping me. There are also many 'pianzi' in
China - they trick/lie to you in order to gain something, and people are very
weary of this. This is why family/relationships are so much closer in China -
people are only willing to help those they know.

I've heard that young people(particularly girls) in China are today more
obsessed with money, so there very well may be truth to what you say about
people being selfish.

>China is now more individualistic than America because people are forced to
be.

I agree with this - competition is so high today compared to when my parents
were growing up. The pressure back then was low as opportunities under the
communist regime simply didn't exist - only those with great ambition would
work hard. Most student/workers played around all day at that time.

------
hexagonal
Blogspam. OP is [http://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/politics/mark-kitto-
youll-...](http://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/politics/mark-kitto-youll-never-
be-chinese-leaving-china/)

------
peterwwillis
Hearing about the property bubble and political system in China is a bit like
hearing a Greek tell you about how politics and business worked in Greece,
pre-economic meltdown.

------
kamaal
The author seems to be stuck in a country which is rising after coming from a
country which had already risen. The path to success is no cake walk, its
tiring and it causes fatigue.

As as Indian this article to me on many counts also looks like the story of
India. The west will find it difficult to digest but the desperation to grow
forces a person to go out of his way to do and achieve things people in the
west in all the comfort cannot imagine in wildest of their dreams.

>>Modern day mainland Chinese society is focused on one object: money and the
acquisition thereof.

What other dreams do you think poor people have?

>>The domestic Chinese lower education system does not educate. It is a test
center. The curriculum is designed to teach children how to pass them.

The issue in Asian countries which are developing is most have only one shot
at doing something in life. Study your ass off or perish, there is no social
security- Your parents work hard to give you a decent education and you work
hard in a once in a life time opportunity to do something in life. There is no
other alternative, you don't have money to do business. The national
infrastructures, license problems, corruption and other stuff won't give you a
second shot at business.

There fore unlike in the west where 'chase your dreams' makes sense, here it
doesn't.

>>Success in exams offers a passport to a better life in the big city. Schools
do not produce well-rounded, sociable, self-reliant young people with
inquiring minds. They produce winners and losers. Winners go on to college or
university to take “business studies.” Losers go back to the farm or the local
factory their parents were hoping they could escape.

As I said before, opportunities are at a premium here. This is difficult to
understand if you come from US and settle down here. You will just never get
why there is such a mad rush for opportunities.

>>The pressure makes children sick. I speak from personal experience. To score
under 95 per cent is considered failure. Bad performance is punished.
Homework, which consists mostly of practice test papers, takes up at least one
day of every weekend. Many children go to school to do it in the classroom. I
have seen them trooping in at 6am on Sundays. In the holidays they attend
special schools for extra tuition, and must do their own school’s homework for
at least a couple of hours every day to complete it before term starts again.
Many of my local friends abhor the system as much as I do, but they have no
choice. I do. I am lucky.

Whoa this is nothing. In India while I did by second year of pre university
college, I practically slept only for 3 hours a day for the whole year. Before
going to the exam I cried. Because my whole years worth of hard work depended
on this one exam! During my engineering college days, I've spend endless
nights studying without sleeping. Same with school.

As a software engineer I've gone a whole week without sleep. And that was
perfectly acceptable. My dad used to tell me, to consider myself lucky to even
deserve the opportunity to go and work at a software company. Hence _anything_
was acceptable.

>>An option is to move back to a major Chinese city and send our children to
an expensive international school—none of which offer boarding—but I would be
worried about pollution, and have to get a proper job, most likely something
to do with foreign business to China, which my conscience would find hard.

Good schooling is shit expensive. Hence parents almost always send their kids
to a local mediocre school. But warn them sternly to study very hard or they
will have no future.

>>China does not nurture and educate its youth in a way that will allow them
to become the leaders, inventors and innovators of tomorrow, but that is the
intention.

Thats for the next generation. The first generation, like my Dad's. They had
only one goal- 'First get your kids somewhere, let them take it from there
on.'

The author is clearly stuck in a massive cultural conflict in his brain. He
wants China to remain where it was, a mediocre country compared to his
original homeland. He doesn't understand the cultural pressures of families in
developing nations. He doesn't understand those countries are trying to go to
where, his homeland is now. He clearly belongs to his native culture, where
bulk of the growth work is already done, and people are just building on top
of it. Where you can get to enjoy foreign vacations, passion based work
environments, freedom to not worry about basic stuff like food, clothing and
shelter.

~~~
kaptain
>>The author is clearly stuck in a massive cultural conflict in his brain. He
wants China to remain where it was, a mediocre country compared to his
original homeland. He doesn't understand the cultural pressures of families in
developing nations. He doesn't understand those countries are trying to go to
where, his homeland is now. He clearly belongs to his native culture, where
bulk of the growth work is already done, and people are just building on top
of it. Where you can get to enjoy foreign vacations, passion based work
environments, freedom to not worry about basic stuff like food, clothing and
shelter.

What quote do you base this off of? This is your conjecture based upon a
mostly negative article about China. I live in China so I can concur with most
of the author's experiences if not his opinions. What I got from the author's
article was this:

I loved living in China. There is an inequity in China regarding money and
power. I wish the Chinese people something better.

Is it a cultural conflict to want justice and then to be frustrated when the
legal system swings the other way without explanation? Your conclusion that
the author wants China to remain where it is show a lack of comprehension for
both the content of the article as well as the pathos meant to be evoked.

Here is what he wrote in his conclusion:

>>There are tens, maybe hundreds, of thousands of mainland Chinese who
“follow” such people too, and there must be countless more like them in
person, trying in their small way to make China a better place. One day they
will prevail. That’ll be a good time to become Chinese. It might even be
possible.

These aren't the words of a man, though embittered, that wants to see China
remain where it was. These aren't the musings of one that hasn't spent time in
the culture and has no understanding of it (though his understanding, as is
yours is colored by your own personal background). These are hopes of a man
that wants to see China move forward.

------
pdeuchler
> Schools do not produce well-rounded, sociable, self-reliant young people
> with inquiring minds. They produce winners and losers. Winners go on to
> college or university to take “business studies.”

Scarily reminiscent of education in the U.S.

------
barkingcat
Just remember, this too shall pass.

You can't be Chinese right now, but that doesn't mean you'll never be Chinese.

Governments do fall and rise at the drop of a hat in China. People know that
right?

~~~
286c8cb04bda
Being Chinese in China has almost nothing to do with the government. It's a
cultural belief that's persisted for centuries. Don't expect that to change at
"at the drop of a hat".

It's not a particularly unusual belief, really. All cultures have an in-
group/out-group division. OP is just missing traits this specific test
requires.

~~~
barkingcat
A century is not a very long time in Chinese history. In fact, yes, for the
Chinese, a century may very well be a "drop of a hat".

Never underestimate the possibilities of change in China.

------
sabj
As lionhearted said, a mix of good points and bitterness, but 甜 and 酸 always
go well together, don't they?

I think the most poignant section was this:

>A deal had been struck. Deng had promised the Chinese people material wealth
they hadn’t known for centuries on the condition that they never again asked
for political change. The Party said: “Trust us and everything will be all
right.” >Twenty years later, everything is not all right.

But I would disagree with the overarching theme that the problem of an
ascendant China / China in general / etc. is that China is too inward-looking,
that "You'll never be Chinese." I know you'll never be Japanese, but I think
China and its people and culture are quite different; I didn't spend as much
time living in China or studying Chinese as the author, but in that time and
in my experiences I think there is a lot more interest and openness of people
(and many elites) than is given credit.

Unfortunately, there are huge structural and institutional barriers too...

------
grakic
While the article may have good points, I was once told not to burn any
bridges when leaving. It is an illusion that you can change things while
giving up the fight. Unless you leaving is an illusion for some other agenda.

~~~
tlear
Depends what you are leaving, sometimes it is good to make sure that going
back whatever it is not an option. Having lived there for that long there will
be times in the future where he will feel nostalgic need to go back, perhaps
try again.. at which point he will look at this piece and know that he will
never be able to run business or work in China again a good thing in this case

------
freewizard
Talking about ideology education for children in this country, it's just like
in some far-far-away, every newly born has to be fucked by the king; growing
up, they know they are fucked, some are addicted to get fucked, some manage to
be fuckers, most just know and accept what has been done and move on with
more/other important things in their life. it's just life, no matter you born,
just get fucked and move on.

------
diminish
"blowing your nose in a handkerchief is disgusting."

I am curious, where in the world is that acceptable (especially during lunch)
and where disgusting..

~~~
codegeek
Blowing your nose in public is disgusting to me personally. I dont care if you
use a napkin or hankerchief whatever. I am amazed to see people blowing their
nose in public without any embarassment.

~~~
sray
That's a curious world view. People should be embarrassed by things you
personally find disgusting, even if they're within accepted social norms? And
you are amazed that people do things are socially acceptable? Pardon me if I
say that I find that a bit self-centered.

I'm not sure where you live, but at least in the US, it's acceptable to
discreetly blow your nose in many public situations (the dining table not
being one of those).

For full disclosure, I should mention that my nose runs a bit more than most.
;)

~~~
codegeek
"I find that a bit self-centered."

I get that a lot so you are probably right :). I agree that in the US, it is
an accepted social norm (I live in the US too) but I was just stating my
personal opinion on the matter.

As for your own nose,blow away :). I promise to behave if I am around you

------
chaostheory
The article isn't loading. Google cache doesn't seem to work either.

------
chubs
I loved this bit: "Leadership requires empathy, an ability to put yourself in
your subordinate’s shoes"

------
jfaucett
are you sure this isn't an Orwell excerpt?

------
seivan
" The Party does not want free thinkers who can solve its problems. It still
believes it can solve them itself, if it ever admits it has a problem in the
first place."

This is not only damaging to society in China, but to the rest of the world as
well. So much potential to do good, squandered because of fear of revolution.

