
Magna Carta, Still Posing a Challenge at 800 - aaronbrethorst
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/15/world/europe/magna-carta-still-posing-a-challenge-at-800.html
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javert
For anyone wondering about why it's being called "Magna Carta" instead of "the
Magna Carta"...

From Wikipdia:

> Magna Carta was given its name in Latin, a language which has no direct,
> consistent correlate of the English definite article "the". As a result, the
> usual academic convention is to refer to the document in English without the
> article as "Magna Carta" rather than "the Magna Carta".

Of course, in proper English it's "the Magna Carta." The rules of Latin have
no bearing on proper English.

Also: We don't call Paris "Par-ee" like in French. Words in different
languages are different words. "Magna Carta" just _happens_ to be spelled the
same in English and Latin.

Leave it to the NYT to do the wrong but "fashionable" "academic" thing. At
least we can count on that.

Language is prescriptive, but I don't want to have that debate.

~~~
phaemon
> Of course, in proper English it's "the Magna Carta."

Nope. You don't say, "the Paris" now do you? There's no particular rule of
when you use "the" before a name.

As that notable academic, Tony Hancock, once asked, "Does Magna Carta mean
nothing to you? Did she die in vain?"

~~~
smegel
> Nope. You don't say, "the Paris" now do you?

Or New York. Or London.

> There's no particular rule of when you use "the" before a name.

Well I don't know if the rules cover all cases, but one rule is you don't use
"the" before _place_ names. Or given names "the Barack Obama". Titles are OK
"the President of the USA".

Clearly the _names_ of "things" like books require the use of "the". Like "the
Bible". It's important to distinguish between the "name" of a book and it's
title. We clearly don't say "I read the To Kill a Mockingbird".

~~~
phaemon
But you do say, "The Congo" and "The Sahara", while you used to say "The
Ukraine" but not any more.

Names of things: "He appeared on television", "He started in radio", "He went
to hospital", "He went to school".

It's unclear whether Magna Carta is used as the title of the document or not:
it seems to depend.

~~~
tragomaskhalos
Children go to school, even though we mean a specific school, yet adults go to
_the_ pub, even when we have no particular pub in mind. If there are rules
behind this I certainly can't see them, and I'm sure foreign learners would
agree :)

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GavinBrown
What's being celebrated today is not Magna Carta itself, but the myth that's
grown up around it.

The UK's best blogger on law, "Jack of Kent", puts it well:

[http://jackofkent.com/2015/06/the-meaning-of-magna-
carta/](http://jackofkent.com/2015/06/the-meaning-of-magna-carta/)

~~~
billpg
He's the guy sitting in the corner on New Year's Eve muttering that its just
an arbitrary point on the calendar with no natural significance.

~~~
pjc50
He's also the one pointing out that the UK government is keen to celebrate
Magna Carta (which has no constitutional status or enforceability) while
dismantling the Human Rights act (which is definitely enforceable).

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calibraxis
_“In a few months, we will be commemorating the 800th anniversary of the
sealing of Magna Carta—commemorating, but not celebrating; rather, mourning
the blows it has suffered._

 _[...]_

 _“To be sure, the reach of the charter was limited. Nevertheless, as Eric
Kasper observes in a scholarly review, “What began as a relatively small check
on the arbitrary power of King John eventually led to succeeding generations
finding ever more rights in Magna Carta and Article 39. In this sense, Magna
Carta is a key point in a long development of the protection of rights against
arbitrary executive power.”_

— Noam Chomsky [http://www.thenation.com/article/198513/killing-
commons](http://www.thenation.com/article/198513/killing-commons)

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caf
Here is one provision of the Magna Carta (1297 version) listed among the Acts
currently in force for one jurisdiction:

[http://www5.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/act/consol_act/mc129725e...](http://www5.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/act/consol_act/mc129725e1c29100/)

~~~
femto
Nice juxtaposition. Compare the text of the Australian Capital Territory's
(ACT) law in the parent's link:

"No freeman shall be taken or imprisoned, or disseised of his freehold,
liberties or free customs, or be outlawed or exiled or in any other wise
destroyed; nor will We pass upon him nor condemn him, but by lawful judgment
of his peers or by the law of the land."

With today's speech by the Australian Human Rights Commissioner, to the ACT's
Supreme Court [1].

"Examples of [Federal] government overreach, she said, included powers to
indefinitely detain - without rights to judicial review - refugees, asylum
seekers, the mentally ill, and those suffering from infectious diseases."

The actions of the Australian Federal and ACT governments are diametrically
opposite. The ACT government is the local government that looks after
Australia's capital city, where the Australian Federal government sits and
makes national laws.

[1] [http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-
news/austra...](http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-
news/australian-bill-of-rights-would-enshrine-fair-go-maxim-gillian-
triggs-20150615-gho3lq.html)

~~~
cmdkeen
That's the problem with Magna Carta, it doesn't actually mean anything. If you
change "the law of the land" then you can do all of the things listed above -
and note it doesn't even say "lawful judgement and" it is an "or" so you can
have detention without trial, even execution without trial as long as it is
the law.

~~~
caf
It does mean something though; the point is that the Executive (in place of
the Sovereign) can't just instruct the police to detain you on a whim - it has
to be done in accordance with powers specifically granted by the people's
representatives in Parliament.

If you don't like the laws passed by Parliament, vote in different
representatives!

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oska
Can anyone recommend a good book on the Magna Carta and the historical
background to it? Keen to do some reading; I know only the basics.

~~~
rodgerd
It's not specific to Magna Carta, but I enjoyed Dan Jones' The Plantagenets,
which provides context to how the original document came to be, and how the
re-issues were forced by the waxing and waning strength of the kings who
followed John. It's an enjoyable book.

~~~
oska
Thanks for the suggestion. Looked the author up on Wikipedia and found he has
also recently written a book on the Magna Carta called _Magna Carta: The
Making And Legacy Of The Great Charter_.

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esfandia
Of interest to the Canadian readers: one version of Magna Carta is on tour and
currently on display at the Canadian Museum of History (i.e., the good old
Museum of Civilization) in Ottawa.
[http://www.magnacartacanada.ca/](http://www.magnacartacanada.ca/)

