
Not a Wheelchair [video] - priyanmuthu
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vuMg0QwKAGI
======
codekansas
Reminds me of this passage from Cory Doctorow's book Walkaway:

"You realize that they're exactly right," Sita said. She smiled, stopped. "You
know, when the first walkaway prostheses project started, most of the people
contributing had lost an arm or a leg in Belarus or Oman, and were tired of
paying loan sharks for something that hurt and barely worked and could be
remotely repossessed by an over-the-air kill-switch if they missed a payment.
But once they got here and started living, realized how much had been left on
the table by conservative companies that didn't want to get into a patent
fight and didn't see any reason to add advanced functionality to something
that you didn't have any choice about, they got radicalized.

"They stopped saying 'I just want to make an arm that'll get through the day,'
and started saying 'I want an arm that does everything my old arm did.' From
there, it was a short step to 'I want an arm that's better than my old arm.'
And from there, it was an even shorter step to 'I want an arm that's so
outrageously awesome that you'll cut off your own to get one.'

~~~
black_puppydog
Gosh I really love-hate that book. It comes up over and over and over again
_despite_ what I consider shoddy writing. It's a bit of a blueprint for how to
make the best of a foreseeably shitty future.

~~~
jasim
My feelings as well. But this one sentence made the book worth it - it is a
commonplace thought that should've occurred to most others, but anyway was a
clearer articulation than whatever I'd had:

"I'm suspicious of any plan to fix unfairness that starts with 'step one,
dismantle the entire system and replace it with a better one,' especially if
you can't do anything else until step one is done. Of all the ways that people
kid themselves into doing nothing, that one is the most self-serving."

~~~
donw
Love that quote.

I think why so many people want to "dismantle the system" is exactly the same
reason that less-experienced engineers push for rewrites: it _seems_ easier to
build a good system from scratch, than it does to build the skills required to
refactor what you already have into what you need.

(Not to mention, the skills to understand what you actually need!)

Because, more often than not, it turns out that the old system had evolved to
deal with a crazy number of edge-cases that were, in fact, really, really
important.

Also, and connected: there seems to be this odd zeitgeist of "make other
people solve things".

Like, most of us think homelessness is bad, and most of us want to help the
homeless, but how few people actually directly invest their own money -- which
I would argue is _more_ important than donating time -- towards actually
solving that problem?

If I lived in the US, I'd be half-tempted to do a YouTube series where all I
do is run around, ask people what they think the biggest problem is in
society, and then ask them how much money they've spent to help fix it. Might
be interesting, especially if I could do so with a curated list of charities
(e.g., ones that don't just pocket the money for nefarious purposes)...

~~~
AnthonyMouse
> Because, more often than not, it turns out that the old system had evolved
> to deal with a crazy number of edge-cases that were, in fact, really, really
> important.

The problem is that a lot of crufty old systems evolved to deal with a crazy
number of edge cases that _no longer exist_.

Or they started out with a bad assumption, and then had some hacks applied to
deal with the problems that caused, and then had some other hacks applied to
deal with the problems those hacks caused, until nobody can see from one end
to the other.

It's important to be able to tell the difference between something which is
complicated because it's dealing with a complicated problem and something
which is complicated because it's hot garbage.

> Like, most of us think homelessness is bad, and most of us want to help the
> homeless, but how few people actually directly invest their own money --
> which I would argue is _more_ important than donating time -- towards
> actually solving that problem?

The trouble with many of these issues is that they're results rather than
causes.

Why is someone homeless? For one person it's mental illness, for another it's
unemployment, for another it's drugs, for another it's housing costs.

So if you want to solve homelessness, all you have to do is solve mental
health, unemployment, drug policy and zoning. And then six other problems that
caused six other people to be homeless.

Which, it turns out, somebody needed to solve anyway, but now you've got to
pick something to focus on. And I think that's where people have trouble.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buridan%27s_ass](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buridan%27s_ass)

~~~
donw
> The problem is that a lot of crufty old systems evolved to deal with a crazy
> number of edge cases that no longer exist.

Totally true! But it's usually a lot easier to factor those cases out than to
rebuild the entire thing from zero.

> It's important to be able to tell the difference between something which is
> complicated because it's dealing with a complicated problem and something
> which is complicated because it's hot garbage.

My rule-of-thumb here is "If you have to force people to use it over
alternatives, you can safely throw it out. And possibly not even bother
replacing it."

> So if you want to solve homelessness, all you have to do is solve mental
> health, unemployment, drug policy and zoning. And then six other problems
> that caused six other people to be homeless.

If you want to solve all homelessness, sure.

But there is something to be said for helping fix real problems, for real
people, now. To make the world that tiny bit better. And in doing so, you gain
a more nuanced view of the problem you are solving, which makes you better at
proposing and evaluating proposed solutions.

I think too many people end up in this weird place where you have to solve
either all of the problem, or none of the problem -- evolutionary change just
doesn't seem to be on the table.

------
tsumnia
Most of the comments have criticized the price point for what you are getting;
however, I would say this looks like a great quality of life tool for disabled
individuals. If you are wheelchair bound, there are a number of terrains that
a traditional wheelchair will not operate on. They even point this out with
their rig on beach sand. There are designs that handle sandy terrain [1], but
they would not work well on other surfaces.

Without knowing much about the couple's relationship, I would say they are
trying to create a design that allows for other outdoor terrains, such as a
dirt road. If you imagine a traditional wheelchair design, the subtle bumps
and dips on a dirt road would make it taxing for the rider or anyone assisting
them. Jerry's Rig tries to mitigate those issues to offer a quality of life
improvement so that wheelchair bound outdoorsy people can still be outdoorsy
people.

Like codekansas said, people can very quickly scope creep into making an all
together badass arm when all the person wants is something to get them through
the day.

[1] [https://www.sandriderusa.com/product/sand-
rider/](https://www.sandriderusa.com/product/sand-rider/)

~~~
black_puppydog
The price point for the beach wheelchair you linked is $2,440.00. That's about
half the price of this rig, and it does _not_ get you _to_ the beach. You need
to have (and park/stash?) another wheelchair for that. Oh and you have to have
someone push you.

By the way, I read @codekansas' comment [1] not as a warning about feature
creep, but as a comment on the inertia in the medical industry (emphasis on
"industry") versus just a few enthusiasts who don't feel bound by patents,
conventions and markets, and simply want to build something to improve their
lives.

[1]:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23703179](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23703179)

------
a-wu
I think the biggest impact of this is the price. There are other similar
products out there (Bowhead and Outrider come to mind), but those are really
expensive. In a world where mobility product prices are through the roof (my
power wheelchair costs north of $50k), selling something like this for under
$5k is quite incredible.

~~~
ravedave5
It's because it's not a wheelchair, so it doesn't need to meet the regulatory
standards, nor does the insurance middleman pricing kick in.

~~~
Someone1234
And one might argue, it isn't a usable product without assistance. Per the
video, she couldn't even lower the handle without him to exit, and it
certainly isn't getting in/out of even wheelchair converted vehicles by
itself.

Not to mention electrical power (Vs. gas in the competition) definitely could
result in the user being stranded, even if it has a power-usage monitor (given
how environmental factors can impact non-air conditioned batteries).

~~~
a-wu
I mean, speaking for myself mainly here, but I wouldn’t really feel
comfortable in _any_ off-road situation without a buddy with me. And most of
my friends who handcycle regularly generally always have someone with them.

But then again I don’t want to exclude the population who are capable of doing
this independently.

~~~
Skunkleton
Able or not, it is usually a good idea to have a buddy when you do this sort
of thing.

~~~
beenBoutIT
That thing gets a flat tire or rolls over and a buddy is going to come in real
handy.

------
mdasen
I think e-bike technology is going to get adapted to all sorts of new uses
like this. I think there's a lot of opportunity to create great vehicles for
people that will offer a good accessibility.

[https://rootedinrights.org/video/disabled-
bikers/](https://rootedinrights.org/video/disabled-bikers/)

This video shows bikers of many different abilities using many different kinds
of bikes and it shows how versatile bikes can be for different people.

I'm kinda curious why it's a quad-wheel system rather than a tricycle. At 2:28
in the video I linked, there's someone paralyzed that uses a tricycle to go
off-roading (two wheels in the front, one in back with a hub motor). I'm not
saying there isn't a reason for the 4-wheeled system, I'm just wondering what
if offers.

~~~
pkulak
Far more stability, right? I assumed that's why 3-wheel ATVs are banned pretty
much everywhere.

~~~
undersuit
Having the front be single wheeled leads to the a lot of instability because
turns change your center of gravity. I just bought a recumbent bike and I had
to search extensively to find a nice two-wheeler because the 2 front wheel
3-wheelers are quite popular, just like the motorcycle equivalent. Most bikes
and motorcycles with three wheels have the same steering linkage you'd find in
a car.

~~~
jacquesm
Be _very_ careful with two wheel recumbents, I've got half an Ikea's worth of
steel bits in my right leg on account of one. The danger is in when your foot
slips off the pedal even for a moment and hits the pavement on the downstroke,
you'll brake with just that one foot and it is a feed-forward mechanism that
you can not break out of. Nasty, to put it mildly. If I had foreseen that
particular failure mode I'd have either foregone the bike entirely or I would
have placed something underneath the cranks to catch my feet should I ever go
there. The lower the bike the higher the risk of this happening.

~~~
undersuit
Thanks for the advice! I've picked up a tall one, and I'm definitely going to
keep your story in mind when choosing my clipless pedals to hopefully minimize
that risk.

~~~
jacquesm
Mine was a Zephyr low racer.
[http://users.skynet.be/ligfiets/phC1/Lrpiste/zephyrrace1.jpg](http://users.skynet.be/ligfiets/phC1/Lrpiste/zephyrrace1.jpg)

------
freeopinion
Quibble: "Stay safe, wear a helmet", in a video full of action with no
helmets.

I like the product, though. Seems like good people trying to do a good thing.

------
ChrisMarshallNY
It's pretty cool.

Good medical equipment is always going to be expensive.

Mist disabled folks won't be able to afford this, and, of the ones that can,
they may not want or need them.

That doesn't mean they shouldn't make them, but they probably won't get rich
on them.

If anyone watched the Apple keynote, one of the sessions was introduced by Meg
Frost, who rides the most badass wheelchair I've seen:
[https://youtu.be/GEZhD3J89ZE?t=1299](https://youtu.be/GEZhD3J89ZE?t=1299)

------
komuW
there's a Kenyan guy[1] who makes electric wheeelchairs out of recycle laptop
batteries.

and it has some nice off-road capabilities.

I can't find his website but he appears to be active on instagram[2]

1\. [https://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-africa-49528426/kenyan-
inn...](https://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-africa-49528426/kenyan-innovator-
converting-trash-into-electric-wheelchairs)

2\.
[https://www.instagram.com/linccelltechnology/](https://www.instagram.com/linccelltechnology/)

------
beefman
Compare to Swincar

[https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC3lTz7OIPp7fscYDhig3Qyw/vid...](https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC3lTz7OIPp7fscYDhig3Qyw/videos)

~~~
Someone1234
I like how the Swincar has a roll-cage.

Even if the "Not a wheelchair" has a lower speed, and less off-road
capabilities than the Swincar, it still seems like roll protection could be a
useful safety system.

I guess they're relying on the light[er] weight?

~~~
VBprogrammer
Your comment reminded me of a motorcycle racer I knew who was paralyzed from
the waist down. He had a few funny stories about coming off his bike and
having his legs broken and bent like a pretzel. The track martials would come
over and just about faint at the sight of it, he often had to calm them down.
He'd get looked over by the medics and drive himself to the hospital to get a
cast put on.

~~~
a_t48
That really can't be healthy for him, can it??

~~~
VBprogrammer
It's not something you should do deliberately for sure. Because he wasn't able
to move his body weight on the bike the bike had to lean even further than any
other rider so he was often very close to the edge. He also always had to
start from the back because he had to have people to launch him.

------
jlbang
Is no one going to comment about how it looks and sounds like their voices
were overdubbed by professionals? It just doesn't sound natural _at all_. I
know it's not actually overdubbed, but it's so smooth, the inflection is
perfect... it's freaking me out.

------
Abishek_Muthian
I highly recommend subscribing JerryRigEverything channel. The host's (zack)
primary content is dismantling smartphones at same time reviewing it's
features fairly.

I had unsubscribed to every other smartphone review channel as I'm not going
to change my smartphone every other day and at the same time I want to keep
myself apprised of the developments in smartphone hardware; JRE serves me
perfectly for that.

~~~
throw7
He got very political some years ago (trump/clinton stuff) and I unsubscribed.

~~~
me_me_me
what? I occasionally watch his videos. The only thing political i heard him
say was about rights to repair, apple fighting repeatability, or small rants
how apple designs for anti repairs.

~~~
sebazzz
He approaches things with humor and uses the current news. For instance in one
of his smartphone videos "And this phone has a xyz mAh battery, and also if
you look close you can read Jeffrey Epstein didn't kill himself."

This is without taking a stand in the matter - which is good.

------
lmilcin
Shows simple is sometimes most effective.

While a device with bunch of features would be better, most people with
disability don't need features, they need something reliable to move around
that doesn't require huge fortune to keep running.

From what I see this thing is so simple nobody will have trouble repairing it
with regular tools and off the shelf parts so most people will be able ask
family member to get it repaired.

------
seanalltogether
The drivetrain and steering assembly have definitely been designed to make it
cheaper to build and easier to maintain which I think is a good thing. I
wonder how much more expensive and complicated it becomes to have 4WD.

~~~
hanniabu
My guess is that accounts for about 30% of the costs.

~~~
neogodless
The existing Rig is $4750 USD and is rear-wheel-drive only. Are you saying it
would cost 30% more to make it 4WD?

~~~
Someone1234
Given that the electric monitor is in-line, and there's no gearing or shaft, I
mean is that such a stretch? The easiest way to make it 4WD would be a second
electric motor, which could easily be 30%.

~~~
Someone
Driving the front wheels is more complicated because the front axis is used
for steering (it might be easier to go for two motors there, and, if you go
there, 4 identical motors might be the better choice for
maintenance/repairability).

I think you also would need to guarantee that both engines are aiming for
(about) the same speed, even in corners or when tire pressure changes. That
might require something technically similar to ABS.

Also, does this have a differential on the back axis? I couldn’t spot it, but
that may be because I don’t know what they can look like on these relatively
low-powered devices.

~~~
mlyle
> I think you also would need to guarantee that both engines are aiming for
> (about) the same speed, even in corners or when tire pressure changes. That
> might require something technically similar to ABS.

Equal torque is good enough. They'll settle to speeds consistent with turning,
etc.

Since they're independent motors, you don't need to worry about the case where
a wheel is spinning stealing all of the torque.

> Also, does this have a differential on the back axis? I couldn’t spot it,
> but that may be because I don’t know what they can look like on these
> relatively low-powered devices.

I don't see it. Often ATV, etc don't have them: you get enough wheel slip on
low traction surfaces that turning works fine, and the prospect of one wheel
with impaired traction stealing all the torque is bad.

There's those Russian sidecar bikes.. they have just a clutch for the second
rear wheel. If you're on a paved surface, you use one driven wheel, but if
you're offroad and could use 2WD, you can engage the clutch (and slippage does
the job of a differential).

~~~
michaelt
_> Equal torque is good enough._

Eh, you'll still want to redistribute torque if you're planning to accelerate
hard. After all, accelerating shifts weight onto the rear wheels, giving them
more traction and the front less.

Front wheel skids aren't acceptable as you use them to steer. And limiting
your _rear_ wheels to the amount of torque that would make the _front_ wheels
slip means you're leaving a fair bit of performance on the table. And
presumably getting more performance is the whole point of going 4wd!

~~~
mlyle
> Front wheel skids aren't acceptable as you use them to steer. And limiting
> your rear wheels to the amount of torque that would make the front wheels
> slip means you're leaving a fair bit of performance on the table.

Or you can just size your motor(s) a little smaller in the front. Or just cope
with this.

> And presumably getting more performance is the whole point of going 4wd!

Being less likely to get stuck and not be able to put down torque at all vs. a
differential and RWD is the big performance win. Being able to run each wheel
precisely at the limit of traction is great if you want to be quick off the
line, but that's not why most off-road vehicles are 4WD.

------
mrfusion
Did he say there’s no differential? Solid read axle? That could be hard to
turn on non dirt surfaces?

~~~
lmilcin
He said so and it does seem to have solid axle and it only shows it driving on
dirt and grass.

One way to solve it would be to have only single wheel powered. If you get
that one powered wheel lifted you could shift your weight to tip entire
vehicle (assuming you took care to load it evenly).

~~~
TylerE
Or just use a limited slip diff. Allows some slip for cornering, but only,
well, a LIMITED amount you don't end up with one wheel in the air spinning
like mad and the one with traction not moving at all.

------
not_the_fda
I know he's trying to be cheeky by saying its "not a wheel chair" to get
around FDA regulation, but that's not how it works.

Its clearly being marketed to disabled people as a mobility device, which
makes it a wheelchair, and makes it a class II medical device that must have
design controls.

He's in for a rude awakening by a visit from the FDA.

------
Zenbit_UX
Can anyone point me in a good direction to start making something like this
myself? I've dabbled with arduinos but never really large electric motors and
battery packs. I think it would be a lot of fun to make myself an ebike or
whatever this thing is.

~~~
canada_dry
Here's a couple similar components I used to build an e-bike. Get at least a
1500W hub motor [i] and a high capacity battery pack [ii].

[i] [https://www.amazon.com/JJBOOM-1000W-Electric-Bicycle-
Convers...](https://www.amazon.com/JJBOOM-1000W-Electric-Bicycle-
Conversion/dp/B07WJ1GGVJ)

[ii] [https://calibike.com/product/lithium-ion-72v18ah-ultra-
light...](https://calibike.com/product/lithium-ion-72v18ah-ultra-light-
battery-pack/)

------
woriuweflksdncn
I wonder how those rear wheels handle corners. I'm a little surprised they
didn't use two independent drive motors, versus a single motor and solid axle,
which could be extended to implement an electronic differential.

~~~
geocrasher
Indeed, this thing will likely eat tires if used on-road a lot. Without a
differential, it'll also be harder to steer and will want to "push" through
the turns. You can see this at 2:31:

[https://youtu.be/vuMg0QwKAGI?t=151](https://youtu.be/vuMg0QwKAGI?t=151)

The turning radius isn't that great, and the lack of a differential helps
explain why. Definitely an interesting design choice.

~~~
uoaei
Version 1.0 will always be a functional proof-of-concept. They have the basic
platform, now they can start iterating.

~~~
geocrasher
If they've gotten this far, they've already been iterating. In fact he says so
at the beginning. "A year ago I welded two bicycles together..."

Having built two recumbent vehicles (a bike and a trike) I can say that the
options for a rear wheel drive are either:

\- Single wheel drive

\- Dual wheel drive with freewheeling action

    
    
       - The inside wheel is driven in turns
    

\- A differential

    
    
       - The outside wheel is driven in turns
    

\- No differential at all

    
    
       - Both wheels are driven equally all the time
    

He's chosen the latter. It's simple, cheap, and provides the best traction in
almost every situation _except_ a turn. It's a good compromise for where this
thing is intended: Dirt. If it were optimized for street use, he'd just drive
one wheel, which is what I'm doing with my own trike.

For reference, this is my current trike build. It's not done yet. Needs
finishing, and paint:

[https://i.imgur.com/pnrDQMS.jpg](https://i.imgur.com/pnrDQMS.jpg)
[https://miscdotgeek.com/wp-
content/uploads/2019/11/IMG_20191...](https://miscdotgeek.com/wp-
content/uploads/2019/11/IMG_20191113_161835.jpg)

~~~
TylerE
Almost think the ultimate solution here would be 2 motors, one per side, and
skid steer action. Can then pivot in place, or turn at any radius desired.
Would map quite naturally to the two joystick control system too.

You can drive all 4 wheels then which will do even better off-road, and the
suspension actually gets a lot simpler since you can totally do away with
streering and all the assocaited geometry.

~~~
zip1234
The problem with skid-steer is that it tears up surfaces with high-traction
tires.

------
cmuguythrow
My friend has a trackchair, which is basically a wheelchair with tank tracks.
Slower than these bike-style chairs but very off-road capable. The coolest one
I've seen is from Ziesel - their track-style chair can go 20MPH!

[http://actiontrackchair.com/](http://actiontrackchair.com/)
[https://www.ziesel-adventures.com/welcome/models](https://www.ziesel-
adventures.com/welcome/models)

~~~
mdorazio
They are very cool, but the Ziesel starts at about $25,000... Not exactly
comparable to this budget level machine.

------
jonah
Super rad. Anything to help people go places they otherwise wouldn't be able
to.

That being said, I'm kinda more partial to the adaptive mountain bikes like
the Sport-ONs[1]. Two wheels in front, one powered wheel in back, and a more
"aggressive", sporty posture for the rider. Clearly a different market and
twice the price as the Rig. It seems to me that the Rig could be a lot more
comfortable and competent with some changes.

Jeremy P. McGhee[2] seems to be a reseller and booster of them.

Here's a video of him and another guy riding them along with a friend of mine
(the guy on 2 wheels).

The Rig with it's capability for cargo, reminds me of an industrial bike like
a Worksman[4].

[1] [https://adaptivemountainbikes.com/](https://adaptivemountainbikes.com/)
[2] [https://www.facebook.com/jer.mcgoo](https://www.facebook.com/jer.mcgoo)
[3] [https://youtu.be/-IIQbD0hwto](https://youtu.be/-IIQbD0hwto) [4]
[https://www.worksmancycles.com](https://www.worksmancycles.com)

------
damenleeturks
Yay for Utah (and accessibility)! I can practically see my house in some of
those shots.

------
burlesona
There is such a proliferation of new small electric vehicles like this. Is
there a comprehensive catalog or list of manufacturers anywhere?

------
marshray
Looks really cool.

But I have to admit, I saw "not a wheelchair" and was a little disappointed
that it wasn't a strandbeest chair.

------
jacquesm
They're going to sell very large numbers of these. In the same week that the
SegWay is EOL'd this comes out. If 'It' had been this it would have been a
damn sight more impressive. Great work, great people.

------
exabrial
I'm actually shocked how _little_ that costs. The price for a nice entry-level
Carbon Frame XCO Race bike is right around $4k. Most eMTB fall into that price
bracket. That's a good deal

------
paulkrush
In the past I have looked for 4 wheel e-bike fat tire builds to find very
little. This rig is in the middle of a kids barbie jeep & adult snow machine
and smoother & quieter than both.

------
tobyhinloopen
I bet it scratches at a level 6 with deeper grooves at a level 7

------
lootsauce
One trick with regular vehicles to better handle sand is to lower the tire
pressure. I'm curious how well you could do on sand with bike tires using
lower pressure?

~~~
jacquesm
But you'll run more flats with bike wheels because of how the inner tube will
pull on the valve. For tubeless that's not an issue.

------
paulpauper
all they did was modify an ATV to have a wheelchair-like seat and bike wheels.
The reason why wheelchairs look they way they do is so they can be
accommodated in indoor environments and fit through doorways or on a bus or
folded and stowed away. It is pretty cool though and I can see a disabled
person finding this useful but I don't see it as a substitute for a wheelchair
either.

------
mrfusion
Any idea how to start building and selling this kind of stuff? It’s my dream
job. But I’m not charismatic enough to make videos.

------
hammock
They make rugged electric wheelchairs that sit on cat tracks. Would like to
hear the pros/cons of this vs that?

~~~
hanniabu
Without having seen or used one, I would assume they're not as fast, not as
smooth, more expensive, more difficult to repair, heavier, and potentially
bulkier.

~~~
easytiger
Top gear did a thing on it

[https://youtu.be/ejkmQffNYjk](https://youtu.be/ejkmQffNYjk)

------
bborud
Solid rear axle? DRIFT MACHINE! :-)

------
danial
For those of you who haven't followed the story and seen the original reveal
video:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H3_mVryqXpU](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H3_mVryqXpU)

Shut up, I'm not crying. You're crying!

------
voldacar
Was hoping there would be blueprints. Still really cool though

------
dmclamb
I want this. I have MS and miss hiking so very much.

------
danellis
Off-topic, but 3 minutes in... so beautiful.

------
Markoff
4750USD doesn't sound extremely affordable for battery only up to 10 miles at
best, so less than 5 miles one direction under ideal conditions. I dunno, I
would expect at least better range from 4 wheels, simple body, suspension and
electric enegine worth 4.8K. this seem like something worth max. half of the
price they sell it for

I fail to see benefit compared to ATV - I just checked some shops and you can
buy brand new gasoline ATV for like 3000USD, electric ATV around 5000USD. ATV
will be faster, cheaper and have better range than this

~~~
a-wu
An ATV doesn’t provide the trunk support that most wheelchair users need.

~~~
manquer
Will modifying an ATV to give trunk support not be cheaper ? it won’t be as
portable though

~~~
a-wu
I suppose so. I think that an ATV’s saddle style seating is less stable in
general though. I’ve never ridden an ATV but it seems to me like a lot of the
time rider stability is derived from the feet being planted and the quads and
glutes being able to hold onto the saddle, which for paralyzed users is
unlikely. In this vehicle it has an actual seat so the butt stays planted and
provides the side-to-side stability.

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theqult
Something that is not a wheelchair is the Genny. I used to work there in IT
Dep. many years ago and still i think is the only real useful application of a
Segway. And the best part it doesnt't look like a fucking wheelchair, when i
was trying it many people stopped me and ask if they could try it. luckly for
me, I'm not paraplegic so they had a ride. The only const: Is not that cheap,
20K Euro. But if don't live in a retarded country (yes US, I'm talking about
you) the biggest part is on the state

[https://www.gennymobility.com/int/products.html](https://www.gennymobility.com/int/products.html)

~~~
djrogers
> if don't live in a retarded country

Probably not the best terminology to use on a post about people with
disabilities.

~~~
SquidLord
> Probably not the best terminology to use on a post about people with
> disabilities.

You've obviously never hung around with people with disabilities. "Political
correctness" is not exactly their/our long suit.

One of my favorite experiences was watching a group of people with learning
disabilities call each other "retard" and crack up every time.

Don't even get me started about Deaf people and the jokes they make about
people that can hear when they think you're not watching.

