
Crimea, the Tinderbox - ytNumbers
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/03/opinion/crimea-the-tinderbox.html?hp&rref=opinion&_r=0
======
spindritf
_Crimea is routinely described as “pro-Russian,” given that an estimated 58
percent of the population of two million is ethnic Russian, with another 24
percent Ukrainian and 12 percent Crimean Tatar._

Because Stalin deported, murdered or otherwise replaced people who used to
live there.[1] Genocide works.

[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deportation_of_the_Crimean_Tat...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deportation_of_the_Crimean_Tatars)

~~~
tty
>Because

No. Russians had already become by far the largest ethnic group in Crimea
before any deportation had taken place.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimea#Demographics](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimea#Demographics)

The deportation happened in 1944, the 1939 census shows Russians at 49,6%.
Crimean Tatars were down to 19,4%.

That still doesn't excuse Russian intervention the last few days, though.

>Genocide works.

Genocide and deportations or ethnic cleansing are distinct things. Deporting
hundreds of thousands of people is already bad enough, no need to use terms
that don't apply to it.

------
lingben
I just watched two BBC programs about the Great War (WWI) [1] and the
similarities between that episode in history and this one are chilling.

Don't get me wrong, I don't think we will have WWIII but the way the pieces
are moving on the set (at least so far) is eerily familiar.

[1] [http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/tvandradio/tv-and-
radio-r...](http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/tvandradio/tv-and-radio-
reviews/10660290/The-Necessary-War-BBC-Two-review.html)

EDIT: in case people as for details, the most obvious is the treaty that
Belgium and UK had entered into which became the casus belli for the UK once
Germany invaded Belgium.

Today there's the Budapest Memorandum on Security Assurances [2] between
Russia, the USA, and the UK and Ukraine of course.

[2]
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_Memorandum_on_Security...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_Memorandum_on_Security_Assurances)

------
dreen
I'm surprised this situation hasn't materialised earlier. With all the "forced
migrations" happening during and after WWII both to and from the area of
todays Ukraine, the country became a tinderbox a long long time ago. Most of
that is the result of Churchill and Roosevelt giving up on that part of Europe
during Yalta, for the benefit of Stalin.

------
huhtenberg
It's not only that Crimea is massively pro-Russian, it's the fact that it was
a part of Russian Federation (a part of Soviet Union back then) before it was
"gifted" to Ukraine by Khrushchev in 1954. It was more of a formality back
then, but it doesn't change the fact that a lot of its population still
consider Crimea a part of Russia.

~~~
lingben
After they deported the original ethnic group, the Crimean Tatars

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deportation_of_the_Crimean_Tat...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deportation_of_the_Crimean_Tatars)

------
ytNumbers
World War One began a hundred years ago, and today it feels like Europe hasn't
progressed at all in those hundred years. Sadly, the Marx Brothers "Duck Soup"
remains as relevant as ever.

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duck_Soup_(1933_film)](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duck_Soup_\(1933_film\))

~~~
lclarkmichalek
You think Europe hasn't progressed? Tell me how many shots Russian and
Ukranian troops have fired at each other (at the time of me writing this
comment).

Alternatively, how many shots have soldiers from the UK, France, Spain,
Belgium, the Netherlands, Switzerland, Sweden, and Norway fired at each other
in the past 60 years? Sure, there's more the Europe than the west, but we're
doing pretty well when it comes to peace in that area.

Or, on a more practical note, how many millions of dollars of value has been
added to the economies of European states due to agreements such as the EFTA,
CEFTA, and the EU Customs Union? How many trade disputes have been resolved?

~~~
antr
I agree. Freedom of movement and capital has been a giant leap, and something
no other region in the world has achieved. In the mean time if you travel
within the US don't be surprised if you are stopped at a random DHS
checkpoint.

~~~
ronaldx
> Freedom of movement and capital has been a giant leap, and something no
> other region in the world has achieved.

I agree that it is a giant leap, but disagree that no other _region of the
world_ has achieved this. India and China have larger populations than the EU.
And, the USA has built itself on having decent freedom of movement between the
50 states, and has far fewer barriers to that movement.

I take it that your comment refers to border patrol overreach and note that
even Schengen (EU border agreement) allows border patrol up to 50km past the
border.

~~~
antr
Comparing 25+ countries vs 1 country makes the point.

