
Google Acquires North - caution
https://blog.google/products/hardware/focus-helpful-devices-google-acquires-north/
======
vikramkr
I guess the competition for smart glasses is heating up - I imagine google
thinks apple's glasses are coming soon and they take that seriously enough to
want to be prepared to compete. It will be interesting to see how this space
plays out. If it's anything like smart watches, the market is going to turn
around with apple's entrance, and buying north now while they're suffering
gives google the tech they need to enter the market again for smart glasses
once apple makes them "cool."

~~~
verdverm
If they are not as good as the Hololens 2, not interested. That device is off
the hook good, really impressed with MS as a long time Linux user

~~~
Kiro
I don't want AR glasses. I want glasses that look like regular glasses but can
display stuff, similar to a smart watch.

~~~
verdverm
You don't want to interact with those things using your hands or frisbee a
photo to a friend, bouncing it off of a wall? (Physics applied to a UI system
aware of surroundings is so much fun!)

~~~
Kiro
Of course but that's a different use case and different hardware. I believe
we're talking about two completely different devices and markets here.

~~~
verdverm
Currently, but I everyone who's tried it is blown away by how good it is. So
yes, they are different devices, but I fully expect there to be huge demand,
that most smart glasses will have hand tracking, and that the end of the smart
phone is without doubt.

BTW, the HL2 was design for sharing and privacy from the get go. It is after
all the basis for next gen military helmets

------
rattray
North was previously known as Thalmic labs, and their first product was the
Myo, a gesture-based input device. More recently, they created Focals, a smart
glasses product.

More on their blog here: [https://www.bynorth.com/](https://www.bynorth.com/)

~~~
0x5345414e
Funny story about the Myo. It was a promising device and seemed to me like it
had great niche applications (such as medical). Founders weren't interested in
that I guess and moved to smart glasses. Last summer they sold the patents for
Myo to a company called CTRL Labs for about $20M. In the fall Facebook
snatched up CTRL Labs for $500M - $1B, and their product description was
basically that of the Myo.

More info:

[https://betakit.com/ctrl-labs-acquires-norths-patents-for-
my...](https://betakit.com/ctrl-labs-acquires-norths-patents-for-myo-armband-
technology/)

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21058975](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21058975)

~~~
ricardobeat
IIRC the reviews for the armband were unanimously bad, with the device barely
working. If the device wasn't fit for gaming, it definitely would not be fit
for any medical or industrial use at the time.

~~~
chabons
I had the chance to use one at a hackathon, and can confirm the device barely
worked. It had huge difficulties differentiating between different input
gestures, and the employee who demo'd it admitted as much.

~~~
0x5345414e
In order to make it reliable you had to make a custom classifier. The one that
shipped with their software was garbage.

------
DiabloD3
Sigh, all I can think is yet another promising startup vanishes into the
depths of Google, never to be seen again.

Google, please stop buying companies, please learn to support your products
and build a loyal customer base. You are not a startup anymore, you need to
make the transformation that companies like Microsoft did, and quit moving
fast and breaking things.

People don't want an agile foundation, they want a hundred year foundation.

~~~
peeters
I'm not sure "promising startup" describes North (previously Thalmic Labs)
that well. Everything I've heard around the Waterloo tech scene is that it was
mostly smoke and mirrors from the founders who were able to maintain their own
lifestyles using grants from the Canadian government. Tales from past
employees are not flattering. Being bought by Google is likely the best thing
that could happen to both the founders and the employees, if Google acquires
the latter.

[https://www.reddit.com/r/kitchener/comments/hg11tl/a_vision_...](https://www.reddit.com/r/kitchener/comments/hg11tl/a_vision_fades_alphabet_buying_canadian_smart/)

~~~
ornornor
> mostly smoke and mirrors from the founders who were able to maintain their
> own lifestyles using grants from the Canadian government

This describes a surprisingly high number of companies I’ve worked at in
Canada. These SRED credits keep afloat so many companies that should have
otherwise perished and that won’t ever go anywhere.

You can even hire SRED consultants that will help you milk those credits as
much as possible (for a fee of course). You can then apply for more credits to
pay off these SRED consultants fees, as I understand it... While producing
little to no commercial value, and coast on these for years.

~~~
ttarabula
I’ve noticed the same thing. Have you found any good writing on this topic and
how the American approach differs from the Canadian approach? I’ve been
fascinated by this dynamic after spending most of my working life in the USA
then returning to Canada, and just feeling like something is “off” whenever I
talk to Canadian startups, and it feels like a lot of the time it comes down
to the way the flow of investment differs here (especially in the R&D space).

~~~
cmrdporcupine
imho it's not just the flow of investment. It's the smallness of the
community. Many of the founders in the Toronto tech scene all know each other.
From private school etc. At least when I was working for one 10 years ago, it
all felt very incestuous and small.

Also in the US there's a real sense of having to hunt and compete for talent,
but at least then in the Toronto startup scene you were to feel blessed for
not having to work for a bank or insurance company, so put up the with the
bullshit and dysfunction please...

~~~
robhunter
Moved back two years ago and can echo this sentiment. We raised our most
recently round exclusively in the US. Will be interesting to see how COVID-19
impacts all of this given how much more remote work will be available.

~~~
cmrdporcupine
Before Google acquihired my team I ended up jumping ship to a NY based company
from the Toronto startup I was at. Difference in culture was night and day.

With the increase in remote work availability I'd probably hunt for work from
US companies at this point rather than beg for crumbs from Canadian startups.

------
lordnacho
Cool, who here has tried Focals by North? I was thinking of getting them for
everyday walking around and reading. My problem is I still don't understand
what the interface is like. Can it project a screen to it or not? I'm
perfectly happy to see a translucent IDE/browser window in my field of view.

~~~
tazjin
Getting them now is probably not a good idea, because:

> The first-gen North Focals glasses won't work after July 31, 2020, but North
> is issuing refunds to people who bought the smartglasses

[https://support.bynorth.com/hc/en-
us/articles/360045128691](https://support.bynorth.com/hc/en-
us/articles/360045128691)

~~~
syshum
When will people learn to not buy hardware that needs cloud support to
function

At least they are giving out refunds, unlike other companies that have
shutdown, but still.

Things like this is why I am a firm member of the selfhosted club

~~~
mavhc
The 6th time it happens to them, as long as self hosting is easier

------
gcbw3
Not acquihire. Employees are not moving to alphabet.

North was a scam, and was about to be bought by patent trolls. This was a
legal move by alphabet. They pretty much paid ransom to the North (Thalmic
labs) founders to not be harassed by trolls later on.

I guess it at least shows that google haven't abandoned google-glass entirely
(or their legal dept doesn't know they aren't in the glass business any more,
i wouldn't doubt it)

~~~
kps
> _Not acquihire. Employees are not moving to alphabet._

Do you have inside information? The announcement implies acquihire. You don't
explicitly say _where_ people will be working for you if they're not going to
be working for you.

> _They 'll join the Google team based in Kitchener-Waterloo, Canada—North’s
> hometown and an area with impressive tech talent. We're excited to welcome
> our new colleagues, and committed to the growing global tech community of
> Kitchener-Waterloo._

~~~
jaakl
That’s the public message. Their HR will probably cherry pick some, sometimes
even such scammers happen to have not yet corrupt talent. Other than that the
IP situation would be the only sensible explanation of this deal.

~~~
jl2718
Do you think the dollar amount is real? I often see massively inflated numbers
that represent the amount a company is going to invest in e.g. their own
product division that will contain the acquired IP. It’s in everybody’s
interest to inflate the numbers.

------
latenightcoding
Thalmic Labs/North helped to normalize the act of exaggerating the
capabilities of your tech, lying to investors, raising millions of dollars and
pivoting to something completely unrelated. We have to stop celebrating tech
companies that are able to raise millions of dollars and still fail to
deliver.

~~~
EE84M3i
Why should we stop celebrating them? Who are the losers here and why should I
feel sorry for them?

~~~
cs-szazz
I believe the losers are the employees whose equity is likely worth $0.

------
subsubzero
I think the biggest problem with smart glasses, (AR tech) is the battery/power
system. A family member worked at a defunct AR eyeglass maker and mentioned
that point. Magic leap is in that space also and their solution was a huge
battery pack(hip mounted) with a chord attaching to the glasses. His company
had the power supply near the ear(it was smaller but didn't have enough juice
to last hours). These examples(north glasses) seem pretty simple with just
basic info being piped out, the two examples I mentioned above you could play
movies and watch detailed realistic meta scenes imposed on reality.

If power can be figured out in small form factor the end results could really
be incredible. After trying out the demo AR glasses to my family members
company(5 years ago) it was one of the most incredible things I have ever seen
and felt like sci-fi come true.

~~~
gdilla
I think the biggest problem is the social cost. They weren't called glassholes
for nothing. Maybe the stigma will be over with better use cases, like filming
the police when in public.

~~~
mft_
My recollection is that the ‘glasshole’ thing was down to a combination of the
perceived privacy intrusion of the glasses bearing a camera, the significant
cost of the early editions, and a broader anger (at roughly the same time)
directed at big tech companies in SF.

Interestingly, there didn’t seem to be a similar backlash against the Snapchat
smart glasses which came later, despite their raison d’etre being
photos/video. (Cheaper? Better marketing? Or different time/social context?)

Anyway, I don’t think it’s a given at all that smart glasses will always come
with a social stigma - they probably won’t, as long as the original Google
Glasses missteps/bad luck is avoided.

------
modeless
What's the rumored price? They reportedly raised $200M. Employees get nothing,
I'm guessing. Well, a secure job at Google is a decent consolation prize, at
least.

~~~
andreilys
Employees are not guaranteed employment at Google. I'm sure a good chunk will
be let go as part of this acquisition.

~~~
twox2
I'm curious how this usually plays out. Do employees of acquired companies
need to go through the google interview process?

~~~
lowiqengineer
Unless they're part of leadership they usually do, yes.

------
Slackwise
Smart Glasses?! Please!

I've been waiting since forever. This is the only "smart" tech I've been so
interested in. I already wear glasses, why not make them more useful?

Meanwhile watches get in the way of using keyboards and interacting with
things, and you constantly take them off. Can't use them if your hand is busy
either, like holding a drink. They're not as convenient as they seem.

~~~
bvhg3
Do you think you'll be able to opt out of location tracking with google's
smart glasses?

~~~
ocdtrekkie
This was actually one of the first times/places Google really upset me from a
privacy standpoint, back in 2012 or so: I had Google Glass, Explorer Edition,
and it's software was written to upload any photo you took to Google Photos.
As an Android device with USB support, you could download the photos direct on
a PC, and delete them before it did so. However, if it had Wi-Fi and power and
it had photos, Google uploaded them without consent.

They repeatedly refused to offer an option to disable photo sync, even when
they added a whole settings bundle to manage the sync settings. (Essentially,
they started letting you tell it to upload photos even over cellular data, but
still neglected to add a "just don't upload the photos automatically" option.)

------
nradov
I was hoping that North would license their display technology to someone that
would build practical smart sunglasses for endurance athletes. There are a few
heads-up display products available now for cyclists but they are all flawed
in various ways, and there's nothing that works for runners. Unfortunately I
don't think Google understands or cares about the sports tech market.

From a customer perspective I would pay $1000 today for a pair of smart
prescription sunglasses that could link to my fitness tracker as an ANT+
extended display and show a few key data field including speed, distance,
heart rate, and power. That would be super helpful for racing and structured
training.

~~~
chillfox
And I could use a pair that could display some data from AvPlan EFB while I am
flying, but everyone wants to chase general purpose instead of starting with a
niche and then growing it.

------
mcintyre1994
> Lastly is our appreciation for Focals 1.0 customers who share our vision of
> everyday smart glasses. We are winding down Focals 1.0 and we will not be
> shipping Focals 2.0

From the blog at bynorth.com ... I guess that's one way to show your
appreciation!

------
jlarocco
Well that's disappointing.

It seemed like they had cool products, and it's too bad to see it bought up by
an advertising/spyware company with a history of killing products.

~~~
vikramkr
the products are already killed as a part of this acquisition. Google must
think the market is worth pursuing if they're willing to dish out $180 million
for the company, but considering they simultaneously announced the end of all
product sales and no more focals 2.0, this is pretty clearly an acquisition
for the patents and talent. They were already close to running out of money.

[https://9to5google.com/2020/06/25/alphabet-north-
focals/](https://9to5google.com/2020/06/25/alphabet-north-focals/)

~~~
sprayk
They are also bricking the devices at the end of July

------
ejz
In addition to everything below, a great way to expand their Canadian presence
to get around problems with American immigration laws.

------
ocdtrekkie
Sad. I have their Myo band sitting around, but the company appears to never
have gotten a solid hit. RIP Thalmic/North.

It'd be nice if Google was somehow prohibited from snapping up even more
companies while under numerous investigations for antitrust during a global
pandemic, but I think that attempted legislation has fallen flat.

~~~
bilal4hmed
Looks like North wasnt doing too well selling their tech. Would it preferable
if Microsoft or Apple or Amazon or some chinese company picked them up instead
?

~~~
ocdtrekkie
Microsoft or Apple or Amazon would all be preferable to Google, actually, yes.
Good ideas go to Google to die.

~~~
HJain13
Like Youtube, Android, Firebase, etc?

------
didip
I cannot imagine North has something that Google doesn't already have. Strange
buyout decision in my opinion.

~~~
1023bytes
North bought the Intel Vaunt IP and improved it, so they actually do have some
very impressive tech.

------
s3r3nity
Just more proof that Google needs to acquire companies to compete:

\- Phones? Google buys Motorolla and HTC's smartphone division.

\- Watches? Google buys Fitbit and Fossil (the smartwatch side)

\- AR? Google buys North

I don't know why Google's Product team gets the prestige it does, when the
last successful product it _didn't_ buy was GMail.

~~~
m0zg
Google has failed to compete in all three of those things (in terms of
hardware), so maybe they need to stop trying the same thing over and over and
hoping for a different result.

------
partingshots
This acquisition along with the Fitbit deal sets up Google perfectly to
dominate the health wearables market.

~~~
lawrenceyan
Isn't the Fitbit acquisition being contested currently due to privacy
concerns?

~~~
partingshots
I highlight the Apple Watch’s FDA approval as a medical monitoring device as a
counterpoint. This was in 2018. Wearables for health have been approved,
legally speaking, already for some time now.

~~~
lawrenceyan
Fair point. I didn't realize the FDA had already started looking at the
wearable space in such detail. Pretty forward-looking / perceptive of them.

------
lachlan-sneff
I think this is a pretty solid acquisition by google. I have doubts that the
tech from North will be able to match the tech in the "upcoming" apple ar
glasses, but things will probably eventually match up, like Android and iOS.

------
87er43
> We call this ambient computing.

Wow, it sounds like "IoT" is getting a makeover. Will this become the new more
palatable vogue term for total immersion in corporate-owned wireless
electronics?

------
swagonomixxx
Smart glasses were a gimmick back when they were first designed and
implemented in the 60s/70s, and they will continue to be a gimmick, especially
if G takes them on.

Nothing against North in particular, I just think that it's a recipe for
disaster to have every minute of a human's waking life tracked by Google.
Color me a cynic, but I'm not optimistic about the future of this technology,
especially in the hands of big G.

~~~
bserge
I just hope it can be reprogrammed with custom firmware by some great people.
My Oculus Go is ancient, but it does way more than it was supposed to thanks
to some smart hackers.

~~~
sprayk
Everything they did was closed source, there wasn't even ever an official SDK
for others to make apps for it. I don't see there being enough of them out
there for the intersection of "have a pair of Focals" and "can reverse
engineer an app & device that talk over bluetooth" for this to end up anywhere
close to Pebble/Rebble. And I think a custom firmware is basically out of the
question.

That's not to say that I wouldn't love to see either of those happen. I'd be
willing to donate my soon-to-be-a-brick Focals to someone that has a history
of reverse engineering weird embedded ARM devices. Ideally you'd get it before
the end of July so you can have a hope of sniffing bluetooth traffic.

------
typenil
Looks like North is heading South.

------
theodric
I look forward to everything North ever was or did being chucked down the
memory hole in 3-10 years, as is tradition

~~~
cs-szazz
If you look at what they've released, it seems this was the best outcome. I
don't know if Focals 2.0 were ever going to see the light of day, and Focals 1
plus the Myo weren't exactly a hit.

I do feel bad for the employees whose options are now worthless though, and
even worse if they'd already exercised them.

------
catsarebetter
Not brave enough to say it to my friends but I would really love a pair of
smart glasses

~~~
dbish
It sounds great, and I've used a few, but you can't realistically walk around
wearing them in the current form without people looking at you odd. It's not
worth what they offer to be that much of a negative focus (see glassholes
commentary for examples). I love new tech, but I won't touch smart glasses
until you can't tell they are smart glasses. The Focals were closer but still
very clearly weird looking and bulky when worn

------
elevenoh
Will they keep most of the North team @ the google Kitchener-Waterloo
location?

------
liminal
Always a bit sad when Canadian companies get acquired by the US behemoths

------
philsnow
> 10 blue links on a PC

are they blue because they're all from advertisers?

------
sprayk
tl;dr what do I do about recycling my Focals, ring, and case, given the
difficulties a generic e-waste facility will have in removing the highly
integrated batteries from the Focals and case? Also, if you have a startup
making pretty, highly integrated devices, please have a plan for recycling
your devices when they inevitably turn into bricks.

I was a little surprised to hear that the acquisition is going to turn my
Focals into a pair of chunky-looking, prescriptionless eyeglasses, and the
carrying case into an alcantera-lined brick. I would like to recycle these,
but I'm not sure how. The post-acquisition FAQ only seems to cover what's
happening to their products/services, how we're going to get refunds (wasn't
expecting that), and how to wipe my Focals.

My main concern in recycling these is the highly integrated batteries. The
Focals, the ring, and the case all have batteries that I can't access and
can't see, and I don't see too many screw holes (though I admittedly haven't
looked). Given what I've seen of e-waste recycling processes, I don't see
anyone taking the time to carefully opening these up to get the batteries out,
and I doubt they would try cracking them open like a crab to get at the
battery, given the risk of possibly breaking a battery or cutting onesself on
something sharp.

Ideally, I would be able to just ship them my Focals and they would take care
of recycling properly, but providing instructions on how to remove the battery
or the types of facilities that would be capable of recycling these things
would be a start.

Also, I'd like to make a request of all of you: if you are or are ever
involved with a startup that is making pretty, highly-integrated devices,
please have a plan on how to recycle your devices when they inevitably turn to
bricks. Hell, make it part of your acquisition message so customers won't just
throw them in the trash (or blindly throw them into the single-stream
recycling expecting it to get handled there and have it end up back in the
trash) and dump more lithium into landfills.

------
weregiraffe
How can you buy a cardinal direction?

------
dorianmariefr
MARCH 19, 2020: North Wearables Looks for a Buyer While Cash Is Running Out
[https://outline.com/aKLaPA](https://outline.com/aKLaPA) (from Bloomberg, just
without the paywall)

------
TheTrotters
Three more to go.

------
returningfory2
> We are winding down Focals 1.0 and we will not be shipping Focals 2.0, but
> we hope you will continue the journey with us as we start this next chapter.

Isn't this just a classic acquihire?

I'm sure it will be on Our Incredible Journey soon.

------
corobo
byenorth

[https://ourincrediblejourney.tumblr.com/](https://ourincrediblejourney.tumblr.com/)

~~~
vikramkr
I don't know if it really fits the spirit of the site if this aquisition is
explicitly for the people and patents, they announce that the product is
shutting down at the same time, and are giving out refunds. The spirit of
ourincrediblejourney always felt to me more of when a company puts on a show
at acquisition talking about how the acquisition will allow for all sorts of
new growth and opportunities and then a few months later the service gets
quietly shut down.

------
pacetherace
So we have a new king in the North

------
ladyanita22
I just can't see how these are better than smartwatches.

~~~
morelikeborelax
It's early but imagine a world where your vision is enhanced with overlays and
information about your surroundings. Where your task cna be visually aided.
Where sight disabilities can be corrected.

This has been military, sci-fi and video game HUD territory for so long, but
that can change.

