
What Safari’s Reading List means for Instapaper - ankimal
http://www.marco.org/2011/06/06/safari-reader-and-instapaper
======
jashmenn
I think marco is totally right that this can only help instapaper in the long
run. Let me tell you a story from my own experience:

My partner and I created an iPad game for cats. We wanted to get some extra
marketing boost so we contacted friskies (purina). In Nov (2010) I exchanged a
few emails, and talked to them on the phone about our game. I sent them a
video and they told us they loved the idea and they would get back to us. Then
one day, silence. We didn't hear anything for months.

Then a couple weeks ago they released the Friskies "Games for Cats" which are
suspiciously similar to our game. The blogosphere exploded. "Friskies releases
creative iPad game for cats" "Friskies is oh so clever etc."

We were pissed. But sales improved. A lot.

I tried to track their rankings so I searched for them on the AppStore. Hmm,
thats odd. I couldn't find them. It turns out /they didn't make native apps/
they were "simply" HTML5 pages on their website that you open in browser [1].

So what was/is happening is people see "Friskies iPad Game for Cats" they grab
their iPad and search for "game for cats" on the AppStore and then they find
our game and we profit.

Also, most people who have cats and iPads don't even think to look for a game
for their cat. So by Friskies putting marketing into this they actually
increase the size of the market (to be honest, I hope they run a TV commercial
advertising their "ipad game for cats").

Moral #1 of the story is: BigCo might steal your idea, but they will likely
mess it up and it can end up helping you.

Moral #2: high water raises all the boats

[1] I realized HTML5 is a "real" app, but most normals don't yet view it that
way. They expect to find apps in an app store.

UPDATE: formatting

~~~
kenjackson
That's a lot different than functionality being added to the OS. What Apple is
doing is effectively what MS got in trouble for. Apple is adding functionality
to the OS that exists as a standalone application out of the OS (this is
probaby the main reason why antivirus doesn't ship in the box with Windows).

The question MS had to answer was if this functionality was crucial to the
operation of the OS. The TCP/IP stack apparently was deemed so. IE wasn't
deemed crucial.

The difference between MS and Apple is that MS had a desktop monopoly. Apple
has no such monopoly in mobile devices. Although if Apple keeps touting their
90% tablet market share, they could inadvertantly put themselves in the middle
of antitrust crosshairs again.

I know Marco has said that he would not use legal means to stop Apple -- but
he shouldn't rule it out forever. Because trust me, Apple would have no
problem doing it to him.

~~~
thought_alarm
You're confusing Microsoft's illegal anticompetitive actions with their
defense.

They tried to destroy Netscape through a number of illegal means. Their
defense was to argue that IE was nothing more than a component of Windows,
which was and is correct. If they had merely shipped IE with Windows they
wouldn't have broken any laws, but that was never really the issue; it was
only the issue MS wanted people to focus on.

~~~
kenjackson
Not correct. See my other response.
<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2627487>

~~~
thought_alarm
Microsoft had a very real monopoly on personal computers, and they engaged in
illegal anticompetitive practices to maintain that real monopoly, illegal
practices this simply wouldn't have worked in a fair market with real
alternatives for consumers and manufacturers.

The only monopoly Apple has is a monopoly on iPhones. Their only interest is
to make their product as attractive as possible in a market jam packed with
innovative alternatives, and history is filled with instances where features
are added to an OS at the expense of a previous 3rd-party add-on.

I don't think there is any comparison between Microsoft of the late 90s and
any tech company today, when it comes to monopolies and anticompetitive
behavior.

~~~
kenjackson
Wrong product. Apple itself states it has 90% marketshare in tablets.

If I were Apple legal I would advise against explicitly stating tablet
marketshare.

~~~
elithrar
Why? They have not engaged in any illegal practices—at least as far as anyone
here knows—to secure this position, and the tablet market is in its infancy.

If the market were years-old and Apple was buying out competitors and paying
retailers to _not_ stock alternative devices, then there would be a problem.
But they're not.

~~~
kenjackson
_Why? They have not engaged in any illegal practices—at least as far as anyone
here knows—to secure this position, and the tablet market is in its infancy._

This is something that people continously get wrong. What are perfectly legal
practices for a non-monopoly may no longer be legal once you're a monopoly.

For example, if Apple had a monopoly on mobile phones it might be illegal for
them to block "replicated" functionality in their app store. Today its
perfectly legal, but in a monopoly situation, its not.

For example, one of the things that MS was accused of was not allowing OEMs to
put Netscape shortcuts on the desktop. If Windows wasn't a monopoly that's a
perfect fine requirement. And as it stands today, Apple has strict
requirements for what can get preinstalled on their phone/tablet by carriers
-- virtually nothing.

Another thing MS was accused of by Netscape was withholding technical
information. Apple does this today. In fact the Camera+ app, not only had to
find technical information w/o docs, but once it did find the information,
Apple removed their app from the app store. Imagine if MS removed Netscape
once Netscape found the info they were looking for.

MS was also accused of "Giving Internet Explorer Away". All of these new
features in iOS are basically free. Again, giving away something at below
"cost" is fine if you're not a monopoly, but _might_ be illegal when you are
one.

MS was also accused of making it difficult (financially or technically) to
remove IE. Again, you can't remove IE in WP7 or Safari in iPad, AFAIK. Both
perfectly legal.

Now I'm not saying MS was in the clear. They were in fact a monopoly and did
these things. My point though is that Apple is treading this line with the
iPad. With the iPhone they're too small of a market. But with the iPad being
the dominant tablet (by a huge margin), they're behavior, which would be
perfectly legal for the iPhone, is now questionable.

~~~
tjogin
The point is that Apple _isn't_ a monopolist. They like to _inadvertently_
brag that they are, but they are not, thus any comparison with Microsoft's
monopoly abuse is moot.

------
andrewljohnson
I knew the guy who made the original faux-MMS app. When Apple added MMS to
iPhone, his app died swiftly.

I also knew the guy who made the original, best voice recorder app too. He
made a mint, but then Apple made it a native app, and his app pretty much died
too.

Never underestimate the potential of the platform-owner to take what he wants
from your business.

~~~
tptacek
Excuse me in advance for 'edw519'ing out:

    
    
             - - - - lots of features w/ mainstream appeal - ->
    
             - - - - has network effects -- - - - - - - - - - >
    
             - - - - wants to be cross-platform - - - - - - - >
    
                                    |                LARGE MARKET
                                    |
                                    |
                                    |  .-- instapaper?
         .-- MMS                    |  |
         |                          |  |
         |
      hard           SPECTRUM of DIFFERENTIABILITY            easy
       <-------------------------------------------------------> 
                        |           |                       |
                        |           |                       |
                        `-- voice   |                       `-- music 
                            recorder|                          social
                                    |                           network?
                                    |     
                                    |
                                    |
                                    |
         SMALL MARKET               |
    
    

It remains to be seen where deferred-reading is on this spectrum. My gut is
that it's somewhere in the middle, but that the total market for it ---
notably unlike special-purpose voice recorders --- is so big that you might
not need to work too much harder to retain the status quo.

My point is that it's not as simple as you make it out to be. There's plenty
of room on iOS for a better calculator (like PCalc); plenty of room for
portfolio tracking, even for special-purpose camera interfaces.

~~~
andrewljohnson
How you put MMS as having no network effects and not being cross-platform is
beyond me.

~~~
tptacek
I didn't. I said network effects are among the things that make products
easier to differentiate, because users aren't just shopping for 80% features,
but also care about the community of people already using specific products.

That is clearly not the case with MMS functionality.

Your objection is isomorphic to the claim that IP has "network effects", and
phone numbers, and zip codes.

Do you _actually_ disagree that MMS is in a different position that
Instapaper? Or are you just infuriated by my silly ASCII graphic?

~~~
andrewljohnson
I disagree in the ways in which it is different. I think these axes are not
good descriptors. And I do not enjoy beating my wife, for what it's worth.

~~~
tptacek
Write a glib comment, get a glib response! What are the axes you think are
better descriptors?

------
mlinsey
Thanks to Safari's reading list, I'll likely stop using the Instapaper
bookmarklet on my iPad. But the most common use case I have for Intapaper is
when I see an article on my laptop in Chrome and want to read it later on my
Kindle 3. So I expect I'll be using Instapaper for a while longer.

This is a generalizable pattern for survival for all the other apps Apple
"killed" today - you can still compete for any users that don't live 100% in
the Apple ecosystem.

~~~
joebadmo
This is a bit off-topic, but I have the exact same most common use case, and I
just switched in the last few days to using the Readability add-on to Chrome,
which has a "send to Kindle" button. I was previously using Wordcycler to sync
my Kindle with Instapaper by plugging it into my laptop, but this allows me to
skip that step. Now I can just hit the sync button on the Kindle directly and
it downloads the saved articles.

Readability seems to render articles slightly better, too, and more often
keeps the byline, which was the most annoying part about Instapaper for me.

<https://www.readability.com/addons>

~~~
thefreshteapot
Cheapshot for link bait.

------
dctoedt
I'm a happy (paid) Instapaper user and hope it prospers, but I'm old enough to
remember what happened when IBM brought out its original PC back in the early
1980s.

Apple claimed that IBM's entry into the space was a _good_ thing because it
validated the concept of personal computing, of which Apple had been a
pioneer.

Then IBM proceeded to eat Apple's lunch, even though (in the opinion of many)
Apple had the superior machine.

 _(Edited slightly for style.)_

~~~
msbarnett
> I remember Apple's response when IBM brought out its original PC back in the
> early 1980s: Apple claimed that IBM's entry into the personal computing
> space was a good thing, because it validated the concept. Then IBM proceeded
> to eat Apple's lunch.

It seems to me you're stopping the story in kind of a weird place, there.

 _Apple's_ market cap is currently something like half-again as much as IBM's.
Apple became a better company for the competition, and it's impossible to
understate how much their current success benefits from the vast explosion in
personal computer adoption that IBM's entry into the market brought about.

Competition makes products better. Increased awareness brings a lot more
people and money into the market. Marco is a smart, talented guy who is well-
poised to benefit, here.

~~~
bergie
Yes, but Apple still nearly died before they got their act together. That kind
of turnarounds are _rare_

~~~
msbarnett
Apple nearly died because during that period because they were an inflexible
organization that reacted slowly to changing market conditions while operating
under increasingly out-of-touch management.

Unless the argument here is that Marco is a dumb guy who for some reason isn't
in a position to pivot quickly and react to change, I'm not seeing any
parallel here with what happened to Apple in the early 90s.

Marco's still the market leader here. He has to fuck up _before_ he's in the
position of needing a turn-around. I'm not sure why you're taking it as _fait
accompli_ that he will be unable to react appropriately; he's a smart guy.

~~~
bergie
I agree that he is a smart guy with a good possibility of still winning here.

But as for being market leader, as soon as this ships in iOS he won't be that.
Would you have wanted to be Netscape when MS started bundling Internet
Explorer in their OS?

~~~
tobylane
I wasn't around in those times, but wasn't Netscape fighting crap with crap?
Marco says that his advertising to Reading List people is how IP is more.

------
antimatter15
Except that foreseeably, there will be no way for Instapaper to have the same
intuitive interface that Reading List benefits from. The only possible future
for Instapaper is as a functionally superior app with a inferior interface.
There's no way that Apple's going to lend the same degree of control over the
functionality of Safari to any third-party app developer.

A pessimistic response is logical and probably the only rational response.
There's simply no way to compete with Apple's Reading List because Apple's
made it that way.

Instapaper, which is really a wonderful app has this weird workflow for use:
Install the app, and to install the bookmarklet (some rudimentary Safari
integration), you have to go to a page, create a empty bookmark, go back and
edit the bookmark with a copied-and-pasted javascript: url. I'm sure Marco has
tried his best to improve the interface, but Apple's restrictions on the
platform forbids it.

~~~
msbarnett
The best, easiest way to install the Instapaper bookmarklet was always to do
it through the desktop browser and then rely on MobileMe to sync that to your
iPad and iPhone. The problem was that not every iOS user was willing to throw
down $99 a year for things like over-the-air bookmark synchronization.

Now that that syncing is going to be free and available to every user of iOS
5, the Instapaper bookmarklet installation process just got simpler, not
harder.

~~~
antimatter15
It might get simpler, but the interface will never be as nice as Reading List
has it. It'll never be as intuitive or user friendly. It'll never be able to
have Safari integration.

~~~
Steko
OTOH he could achieve superior integration with iCab, Skyfire, Opera,
Sleipnir, etc.

------
phuff
Instapaper's killer-est feature for me is "Send to my kindle." I don't think
Apple could get away with that anytime in the near future without some legal
troubles with Amazon. Features like that are things that will continue to make
apps like instapaper better than the baked in stuff. And it takes Marco a lot
less turnaround time to deliver them than it would somebody like Apple, so I
think there's still a lot of room to grow there.

~~~
jccodez
You make an excellent point. You don't just integrate with one platform, you
target and glue to others adding additional functionality. This will keep
people coming back.

------
mcritz
There seemed to have been a lot of pessimism regarding Apple announcements
that seem similar other offerings like Dropbox & Reminder apps.

Marco has the best response.

He’s rightly convinced of the superiority of his product. Apple is chasing
_him_ at his own game. When people realize that there’s a whole untapped
market for content reading services he’ll definitely stay the upscale, market
leader in the field.

------
raganwald
The true story of audion:

<http://panic.com/extras/audionstory/>

~~~
wallflower
This has been posted here many times, and it is absolutely one of the best
first person accounts of doing business with Apple.

------
hristov
Take this with a grain of salt. Of course he is going to say it only helps
him. That is just entrepreneurship 101. You must always be positive and
incredibly self assured in public. Executives always assure you that their
business is going great and everything is good news up to the moment they file
the bankruptcy papers (and in the case of chapter 11 bankruptcies even for
some time afterwards).

But I doubt he is that optimistic on the inside. This is for reasons other
people have already properly identified in this discussion (e.g., the Apple
product will always have the better integration).

So Apple just went out and ate this guy's lunch. That's pretty much it. You
may argue it is ok, you may argue they have a right to do that, but let's not
pretend it did not happen.

------
donohoe
I get the impression that Marco is putting a brave face on what is an awful
realization.

I use the 'reading list' functionality of Instapaper. I have only used the
social and editorial aspects to see what they were about and nothing more.

~~~
omaranto
I don't use the social and editorial stuff either, but I use two Instapaper
features Apple's thing is not likely to have: (1) I use the bookmarklet (and
also, ocasionally, read an article from the website) from my Windows and Linux
boxes, and (2) in addition to reading on my iPod touch, I download my saved
articles as an ePub file to read on my Sony PRS-505 eBook Reader.

------
rafski
Will Apple's solution be limited to Safari? I would think Marco's customers
are rather a tech-savvy crowd who wouldn't tie themselves to just one
particular browser.

I use Instapaper for the multi-browser support (mostly in Firefox), but also
for the Kindle support, both for reading in Kindle Webkit browser and as
downloads.

I think Marco has a big chance to catch the long tail of read-later'ing.

If you look at desktop Safari's Reader Mode… It is a fantastic feature but I
don't think I ever heard of anyone I know using it.

It should've been implemented in iOS Safari long time ago, btw, this is where
it's been missing.

------
bproper
Pretty amazing to see Apple building best elements of Dropbox, Kik, Instapaper
and more directly into iOS.

Quite the emotional rollercoaster for Marco -
[http://www.betabeat.com/2011/06/06/apple-killed-
instapaper-r...](http://www.betabeat.com/2011/06/06/apple-killed-instapaper-
reading-list-marco-arment-2011-06-06/)

~~~
nplusone
Indeed, Marco's initial reaction seems to have been
<http://twitter.com/#!/marcoarment/status/77796293510037504>

He's clearly thought of this possibility, as evidenced by his post in late
April about the potential impact of _Reading List_ on Instapaper.

------
ChrisLTD
Marco is in a tough position because he depends on revenue from _only_ one app
available on _only_ iOS.

It's a tough break, I'm sure he didn't expect anything like this before the
Lion preview. I hope his business can survive.

------
biafra
"And they’ll quickly find Instapaper in the App Store."

Until Apple pulls the plug on Instapaper. Let's hope that never happens.

------
zipdog
The competitive advantage for Instapaper is the ability to iterate quickly. If
Apple delivers a growing band of people interested in reading the web later,
Instapaper is better positioned to find out what tweaks and features will work
best for them by risking changes to the core product.

------
Lazlo_Nibble
The vast majority of the articles I add to Instapaper, I add from Firefox on
my desktop at work. And virtually _all_ the articles I read in Instapaper, I
read when I'm off-network completely (I have an iPod touch). I don't think
Marco has much to worry about yet.

~~~
joshuarrrr
Agreed, in fact offline reading (+Kindle syncing) is why I sought out the app
in the first place.

------
krmmalik
I cant comment whether this will help InstaPaper or not, having never tried
the product, but i love the way that the owner of instapaper rises to the
challenge. It inspires me greatly for if and when my business may face similar
challenges.

------
st3fan
So it seems that Reading List does not support offline reading. For me that is
the main reason to use Instapaper. I save a lot of stuff and then read it when
I am for example on a flight without Wi-Fi.

There is your added value.

------
jemeshsu
Instapaper will be ok, it has superior features not in Reading List. Same for
Camera+ even though Apple added enhancement to native Camera app. Sparrow vs
Mail app. iOS market is big enough for Marco to happily survive.

------
alexknight
If Reading List gains a lot of ground, it may be time for Marco to think about
developing an Android app. I'm a happy paid Instapaper user though, and
continue to pay the subscription fee to support the service.

------
jonursenbach
I'm surprised that he doesn't start trying to capture the Android market.

~~~
timmins
Having read Marco's blog and listened to his podcast, I can't see an official
client for android from Marco ever. His opinion of android is crystal clear.
As a Nexus One owner, it requires some effort to disregard most of the
hyperbolic insults in his podcast.

So, I'd like to say I'm surprised too but all too often he pans the platforms
as well as acts like he's making enough revenue for the hassle.

~~~
joshuarrrr
Fair enough, that's his call to make. Meanwhile, I'll keep using InstaFetch
for its value added to my Android phone.

------
T_S_
Did Time Machine kill SuperDuper? Not for me.

I use Chrome, so no.

------
st3fan
Dunno about this. It is hard to compete with native features of the OS.
Specially on iOS where integration hooks are terribly missing.

------
Getahobby
So the message AAPL is sending to app developers: do your job well enough and
we will bake it into the OS.

------
ignifero
No they won't. Focus on the broader ecosystem (Windows, Android, Blackberry,
Windows Phone) and greater integration.

~~~
teyc
This is correct. Once you have a nice feature, you realize Apple's doesn't run
everywhere.

Marco is also correct about social. A simple commenting system and a
highlighter and a red envelope would be useful. People want insightful quotes
highlighted and commented, and want to be validated when people reply to their
messages.

