
Netflix boss: Remote working has negative effects - danaris
https://www.wsj.com/articles/netflixs-reed-hastings-deems-remote-work-a-pure-negative-11599487219
======
neonate
[https://archive.is/6iK6Z](https://archive.is/6iK6Z)

~~~
ffpip
What kind of a paywall does WSJ have? I always get a wall.

Is it X articles free per month, or do they allow only crawlers on their
sites?

~~~
kyrra
They used to allow crawlers and Twitter and some other links through, but
they're almost entirely behind a paywall now.links through Facebook or Twitter
may still work, but they definitely do not work through Google anymore.

~~~
paulie_a
I blocked them from my Google feed as well as numerous other ones. I'm not
going to pay to see ads

------
supernova87a
I've mentioned this before, but WFH has a huge difference in result depending
on who you are, when you are (in your career), and where you are in a company
(or organization).

\-- For the budding young developer who can't wait to show ideas to teammates
and demonstrate being a go-getter by asking random questions and finding
unaddressed issues to innovate on, WFH might be terrible. You're going to
schedule time to fortuitously run into the senior person who takes an interest
in your idea?

\-- For the working parent whose productivity has been slashed by 50% and
stress has gone up by 50% due to parenting obligations, WFH might be terrible.

\-- For the middle manager who can coast along and not need to move greatly in
his/her career, WFH might be great.

\-- For the developer who works by tickets on very concrete things and this is
nothing new, WFH might be great.

\-- For the small company CEO who relies on force of personality and everyone
in the same room urgently working to get something done, WFH might be
terrible.

There's a huge variability in what WFH means, depending on what you want from
the situation.

For some people, remote working is really not good.

And that's aside from the point that, when everyone is remote, you're also
competing with the world who is also remote. Jobs and job qualifications (and
competition) may change...

~~~
DeepThoughts
I’d like to propose a reframing of your scenarios for objectivity:

WFH is horrible for some people in some scenarios.

WFO (work from office) is also equally terrible for some people in some
scenarios. It’s just that people have generally normalized and accepted that
these horrible WFO situations are required to feed yourself.

Barring jobs where you cannot function without physical presence, I’d say we
need to fundamentally rethink why WFO is a default. And why we think a
baseline of suffering for some people is generally OK.

~~~
richardwhiuk
Can you provide some examples of WFO being such an issue? Is it mostly
"commuting sucks"?

~~~
treis
WFO nickels and dimes you on equipment. I can bill out 300k in hours a year
but getting a company to spend $1,000 on monitors, chair, keyboard, etc. is
like pulling teeth. They expect me to work on a 14" laptop and maybe an
external monitor. At home I can use my setup.

~~~
schwartzworld
WFO nickels and dimes you, but you're okay paying out of pocket for all your
equipment at home?

By that logic, you could just bring your own monitor and chair and keyboard
into the office.

~~~
scotuswroteus
which is often BANNED

~~~
schwartzworld
Your office wouldn't allow you your own chair?

------
onelastjob
In the article he says he'd be up for 4 days in the office and 1 day work from
home after covid. These CEOs just can't let go of the 5 day work week. It's so
frustrating. 5 day work weeks don't leave enough time for employees to take
care of their personal lives, in my opinion. This results in employees taking
more sick days and not concentrating at work because they have to deal with
their personal business while at work. I think we need to move to a 30 hour
work week. Four 7.5 hour work days would vastly improve working in my opinion,
whether it is remote or in the office.

~~~
warent
Either that or provide humane vacation time. In the USA you accrue like 11
days of vacation per year. Contrast with many places in Europe such as Sweden
where you are entitled to at least 25 days. Not to mention the cultural
differences where most jobs in the US will shame you for enjoying your meager
time off.

Don't even get me started with "unlimited" vacation policies which are a joke.
When I used to interview with companies and they told me they had unlimited
vacation, I let them know immediately that I respect their time and dont want
to waste it any further because I can already tell I dont want to work with
them.

This is why I ONLY do contract work now. Truly unlimited vacation and however
many workdays per week I want.

~~~
jedberg
Netflix has unlimited vacation. It works well because they encourage people to
take vacation, starting at the top. The CEO always makes a big deal about how
he's taking 1-2 weeks off at a time, and encourages all the VPs to do the
same.

Not all unlimited vacation cultures are bad. The best way to find out is to
ask how much vacation the CxOs took and how much vacation the hiring manager
took. If they can't answer that, _then_ be concerned.

~~~
warent
I'm not buying that they're doing it out of the generosity of the business.
Otherwise why not just offer a generous number of days vacation in the
benefits package? They're making it unlimited because they're counting on
people using less than average vacation time so the business can save money
while maintaining a good image.

~~~
biztos
I think the "unlimited" thing started as just trying to get the vacation time
off the books as a liability, and treating it as "no time off" happened for
cultural reasons.

Ugly and hostile reasons, but still cultural -- I don't think there was ever
an evil cabal of CEO's rubbing their hands over the thought of engineers
working 50 weeks a year.

~~~
danaris
That's how a lot of these things work: There's (almost) never an _actual_
conspiracy of people meeting in secret to orchestrate the terrible things that
have been done to our society. It's just that given the way our version of
capitalism has been set up for the last few decades, the incentives are
structured such that already-rich people can get themselves _even more_ money
by finding more and more legal-if-shady ways to squeeze everyone else.

------
jedberg
This doesn't surprise me. Netflix was always very anti-WFH. When I was there I
know of only one team that did it, and that was the OpenConnect team
(Netflix's custom CDN). And the main reason that was allowed was because the
team was spread all over the world.

The Netflix culture is very strongly built around in-person collaboration.

One interesting way this manifested itself was when the new HQ was built, it
had _a ton_ of 2-4 person meeting rooms, more than I've seen at any other big
tech company. This was a reflection of the many 2-4 person meetings that were
scheduled every day. In the old building, you'd often see a 10 person room
being used by two or three people because there were no small rooms left.

Sure you can replicate this on zoom, but it's just not quite the same as
sitting across from someone reading their body language.

~~~
crispyporkbites
It’s not the same- why try to replicate an inefficient process anyway. Most
meetings are a colossal waste of time.

~~~
jedberg
I agree that many meetings of 4+ people can probably be done more efficiently
via email or wiki or whatever, but I've found 2-3 person meetings far more
effective than any other means for information transfer and decision making.

~~~
deif
Can you come to my meetings and tell my CTO how to make decisions faster?

~~~
jedberg
Propose a "memo culture". That was how we managed larger meetings at Netflix
(and I'm pretty sure we stole it from Amazon).

Before the meeting, everyone who has a stake in what's being discussed
contributes to a memo outlining their thoughts on it. Then everyone reads it
ahead of the meeting.

The meeting is then just to hash out what's in the doc and agree on which
already proposed solution will be adopted.

~~~
srtjstjsj
How does one propose and win a culture change of one isn't in charge?

~~~
crispyporkbites
No one is in charge forever, lead by example and if you’re doing things right
eventually people will follow. You are as much a part of the culture as the
current “boss”

------
ErrantX
All I'd say is; Netflix have a pretty extreme culture[1]. From the outside it
looks pretty solid, but I understand the reality is that if you are not above
average for two performance cycles in a row they let you go. There is an
expectation of drive, and constant commitment (no judgement; it works for
them, though I'd never work there!)

WFH naturally allows more flex into your real life. This will not vibe well
with Netflix's culture IMO.

1\. [https://jobs.netflix.com/culture](https://jobs.netflix.com/culture)

~~~
pizza234

      > All I'd say is; Netflix have a pretty extreme culture[1]
      > 1. https://jobs.netflix.com/culture
    

Scary. From some extracts, it seems more a cult than a company:

    
    
      > You question actions inconsistent with our values
      > You seek what is best for Netflix, rather than what is best for yourself or your group
      > You accomplish amazing amounts of important work
    

They're taken out of context, but could be interpreted as hints to how the
company really works.

~~~
anoncareer0212
If it is, I'm leaving my FAANG role for Netflix - it's very refreshing to hear
people might be motivated by larger causes.

Most of my last week was spent trying to avoid fallout from our team's
massively skewed performance reviews: our first promotion case in 2 years is
the colleague who performatively did no work for months while the manager was
out, bullied me for continuing to schedule and work with our partner teams,
and encouraged another co-worker to have a meltdown about it that cost them
significantly.

~~~
pizza234
> If it is, I'm leaving my FAANG role for Netflix - it's very refreshing to
> hear people might be motivated by larger causes.

I don't get it. What's the larger cause here? Netflix is not doing anything
special for the society. If you talk about engineering, they certainly have an
excellent engineering culture, but I don't think they're implicitly more
talented than many other companies.

I actually see it (but obviously, it's my opionion) as a very skilfull
marketing targeted at outstanding but naive engineers (that is, people who
sacrifice their work/life balance for the company). In a cynical way, it's
like the nigerian scam, but oriented at intelligent people.

> Most of my last week was spent trying to avoid fallout from our team's
> massively skewed performance reviews

A company like Alphabet is more than 10x the size of Netflix. Politics and
inefficiency is pretty much inevitable at those magnitudes.

~~~
andreilys
_“If you talk about engineering, they certainly have an excellent engineering
culture, but I don 't think they're implicitly more talented than many other
companies.”_

If we took a random sample of Netflix engineers and compared them to a company
with weak engineering cultures, like Blockbuster, I’m sure we could agree that
Netflix engineers are more talented.

~~~
gaadd33
But we aren't comparing them to a random company, we are comparing them to the
rest of FAANG. Do they have a much stronger engineering culture than
Google/etc?

~~~
jpgvm
Pound for pound I would probably say yes.

Netflix is often where the best of the best aspire to be even if they have
already done rotations at FB/Google.

At least in my field (infrastructure, big data, etc) this mostly holds true.

------
anotheryou
Reading the absolute claim in the title ("no benefits at all") makes me
dismiss his opinion instantly.

You can claim it's net negative, but not seeing anything positive probably
just means you are a workaholic with no life and can't fruit a good debate
about it.

~~~
FalconSensei
Yeah, in my company we are seeing a lot of positive impacts, especially for
those who live far from the offices, and are saving 10~15 hours a week from
commuting. People can focus more on work, than spend time and energy
commuting, and dreading the long commute home

~~~
anotheryou
I totally can see negatives:

\- no water cooler talk and lunchs > bad for team spirit/work friendships

\- heated discussions going stale and ending up in resentment > easier to
resolve in person when you get a good feeling for how the other feels (and
interact about non-problematic things, e.g. the mentioned lunch together)

\- grabbing a busy person when you feel the time is right

\- harder to motivate yourself when you are on low-energy or stuck

(And yet I think the positives even that all out)

~~~
FalconSensei
In the end, everything depends on the team and the person right?

I would like going back to the office. I miss the espresso machine, the
snacks, seeing people, playing boardgames after work. But that's because it's
a 10 min. walk for me to go there.

For some coworkers, it's a 1 hour drive each way, having to pay for parking,
and needing to leave work no later than X because otherwise they have to pay
extra.

Also, I can concentrate more at home. In my previous job, I ended up moving to
a small cubicle that was not being used, because I couldn't stand the noise of
other people talking around me (had some loud speakers there).

------
ralph84
As long as Netflix continues paying top-of-market they'll have no problem
attracting talent regardless of whether they allow WFH. It's the companies
that don't pay top-of-market that have to think longer and harder about WFH.

~~~
thiagocsf
What data did you use to make this assertion?

I know of at least one counter-example. Maybe it’s the exception that proves
the rule but I’d rather see some numbers before believing it.

~~~
drewcoo
If you consider ability to work flex hours or WFH as part of your employment
package, they don't offer WFH but they do offer more money. Overall comp is
still high. What additional data do you need? Relative value of WFH vs cash to
various demographics?

------
bluedevil2k
What’s best for the company doesn’t mean it’s best for the individual
employees. People need to focus on what’s best for them because we’ve probably
all learned at this point that the company puts their needs above your own.

~~~
ictebres
Yes, the same guy thinks sleep is a competitor of Netflix. So no, I do not
think he has the best interest of other humans.

[1]: [https://www.fastcompany.com/40491939/netflix-ceo-reed-
hastin...](https://www.fastcompany.com/40491939/netflix-ceo-reed-hastings-
sleep-is-our-competition)

edit for possible misunderstanding that I'm critisizing the OP

~~~
CinchWrench
did you know netflix's first CEO is Edward Bernays' great-nephew?[1]

Makes a lot of things make sense.

[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marc_Randolph#Early_life_and_e...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marc_Randolph#Early_life_and_education)

~~~
saagarjha
I think you're putting far too much weight on a great-uncle who Randolph may
not have never met.

------
dan_m2k
I’m so pleased that someone isn’t afraid to reject the WFH kool aid.

Just because certain personality types work better in solitude doesn’t mean
it’s one-size-fits-all.

Others are suffering loneliness, marginalisation, are struggling inside their
own heads, are stuck in tiny apartments or don’t have access to outdoor space.
If you hate the office that badly, you’re probably working at the wrong place.

And yeah, a truly creative collaborative working environment can’t be
replicated over video call.

~~~
MrScruff
I hate everything about WFH. I like travelling to a different environment each
day, interacting with my colleagues, being in a space designed for work
(proper seating and desks, aircon), looking someone in the eye when I'm
talking to them, feeling the bustle of the city centre when I go for a stroll
at lunch. Working from home makes me feel like a widget at the end of an
internet connection.

Then again I don't have children and I cycle to work so maybe that's the
difference.

~~~
maigret
You are pretty much describing a coworking space or a good library. I don’t
know if you own a house, but you might change your opinion once you’ll be on
the search.

------
remir
_The Wall Street Journal newspaper asked Mr Hastings if he had seen any
benefits from staff working from home.

"No. I don't see any positives," he replied_

Not even a tiny bit of positive? I would be curious to know Netflix's workers
point of view on this.

~~~
tayo42
How does someone in such a high position see things so black and white?

Either way, this world wide work from home experiment isn't even a good one
because there's a massive pandemic going on that... Judge wfh after the world
is vaccinated.

~~~
syndacks
>How does someone in such a high position see things so black and white?

The CEO of Netflix is a brand in itself. The guy is selling a message, a
vision (and a book!) My guess is, deep down inside, he sees several positives
of WFH, but that doesn't vibe with his overall message or the culture he's
trying to cultivate.

------
ilamont
Reed Hastings just released a management book (written before the pandemic)
which is heavy on traditional, in-person management styles. I think the
statements in the book make it difficult for him to suddenly welcome remote
work on a permanent basis.

In addition, certain (but not all) aspects of the media business such as
creating media _do_ work better in person. This is true of many industries,
not just media, and may explain some of his thinking.

------
johnnyfaehell
What I've noticed at my company is, the people who were massive fans of
working from home are now the people who are missing the office the most,
except for one or two people. Working from home has it's benefits but it's
really not for everyone. I, personally, am looking forward to going back to
the office full time. I can go to the office just now but without other people
there it just seems pointless to go.

~~~
tma28744
I think we need to understand that everyone is in different situations and not
force personal preferences on others.

I think allowing people to work however they want should be the way forward.

I personally don't plan on ever going back into an office. For me, WFH is the
best thing that has ever happened. No commute, no open office bullshit, more
sleep, more focus, more time for personal hobbies, no working in a filthy
neighborhood in downtown SF, options for better accommodations (due to no
commute), no waiting for people to finally clear a meeting room, no need to
stand in line to go to a smelly restroom, etc. etc.

~~~
mistersquid
> no working in a filthy neighborhood in downtown SF

One of the things I miss most about the office is that I _live_ in “ a filthy
neighborhood in downtown SF” and the office was wonderful. I also miss the
commute, which was on one of the tech busses, so I could sit back and take in
the scenery.

I am upgrading neigborhoods though, so that’s something.

------
efficax
I can’t imagine anything more “pure negative” than a business culture with
stack racking and firing people who aren’t “keepers”. Netflix’s success is
from being first to market, pure and simple, and has nothing to do with a
toxic management structure that, from all accounts, is abusive to its
workforce.

~~~
marcinzm
>Netflix’s success is from being first to market

Plenty of companies are first to market and don't win the market. Also, Amazon
Video predates Netflix streaming and Hulu was out only a year later.

------
nabla9
Remote working has positive and negative effects. First come the positive,
over long term the negatives become self evident.

Hopefully Covid-19 exposed people to the positive effects and there will be
more remote work opportunities than before. People frequently working 1-3 days
a week from home in many professions might become accepted norm.

~~~
thiagocsf
Are you saying you don’t know what the negatives are or have they not become
self-evident yet?

I think there are immediate negatives, like collaboration, synchronous
decision-making. I wonder what the long-term ones are.

~~~
dmitriid
> I think there are immediate negatives, like collaboration, synchronous
> decision-making.

This hits companies with teams who sit in the same office. Companies that are
more spread out didn't suffer as much. My team of four people is spread of
four cities, so we were always remote to each other.

The negatives come from equipment and socialisation:

\- most homes are not equipped to be offices (anything from lack of proper
chairs to lack of proper quiet places at home, especially if kids are on
vacation)

\- you do miss interactions with other people at the office even if they are
not on your team: lunches together, coffee breaks etc. This can be mitigated
(just ask freelancers how they cope), but it will eventually affect most
people

\- You often end up working more at the detriment of your work-life balance
due to some routines just not being there. No one asks you to join them for
lunch? You end up skipping lunch because you're working. People are not
leaving for home en masse, you end up staying way beyond work hours hacking at
"just one more bug and PR, and I'm done".

------
thinkingkong
I mean its sort of a blanket statement. Do I believe remote work is harder for
c suite and writers? Absolutely. Is it harder for engineers? Probably less so.

~~~
znpy
Yes but not everybody works in it/engineering.

~~~
walshemj
For solo writers propbaly not but for a writers room i could se it being a
problem,

Ill have to ask one of our TTRPG streaming group who is a writer / co-producer
on a netflix show.

------
runawaybottle
So glad remote work is simply a bigger undeniable phenomenon that the suits
can’t wish away.

Even a four day work week with one day remote for most white collar jobs was a
foreign concept until this year. The quality of life improvement for everyone
is insane. People have more time to spend with family, cut entire commutes a
few times a week, getting that extra hour of sleep, or have that extra hour or
two after work, it’s about as close to the mythical European quality of life
Americans hear rumors about.

------
yumraj
Talking of Netflix, genuinely curious about something...

I know that they have a leadership position today and supposedly hire great
engineers, pay them very well and are doing very well in the stock market.

But, in view of numerous other streaming services, purely in today’s context,
do they have an engineering edge that is a key strength that will help them
keep their leadership position or is that engineering edge no longer relevant
and leadership in streaming services would simply be determined by who has the
content.

~~~
dmitriid
It's no longer the question of "engineering edge". People will subscribe to
Disney+ even if it only offers 720p streams with long buffering times. Even
now in some countries (I'm writing this from Sweden) Netflix is 70% Netflix
content, 5% a small number of fairly recent movies, and 25% a hodgepodge of
movies not more recent than 2005. For the sole reason that the main content
hoarders, ahem, rights holders have stopped their broad licensing deals with
Netflix (Disney, WB etc.) and are openly hostile towards Netflix.

If you don't have content, your technical edge means nothing. Netflix
understood this the moment Disney (or was it WB?) announced they would cancel
their licensing deal with Netflix a few years back, and Netflix started
pumping billions of dollars into producing its own content.

~~~
jeffrallen
Netflix has plenty of content. Just enjoy what's there.

And I'm really enjoying punishing Disney for taking their ball home.

My budget for entertainment is already 100% allocated to to Netflix, and
Disney has lost my entire family (2 adults, 3 kids), both now and possibly
into the next generation as well.

~~~
dmitriid
Outside the US Netflix was pretty bad even before WB and Disney left the
platform. Now it's bordering on ridiculous. Same with Amazon Prime, see my
other comment [1]

I would "just enjoy what's there" if there was sufficient content. There's
enough to go back to it once every two or three months, maybe.

[1]
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24405780](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24405780)

------
jinonoel
My company has been WFH since mid-March. I've loved being able to just start
working instantly after waking up and finishing my morning routine, but one
thing I've really missed is the 30minute drive home after work. That period of
time was effective in resetting my brain from "work-mode" to "home-mode".

It's been hard going from shutting down my laptop straight to playing with my
kids, it seems like I'm part-zombie at first and not as lively as I would be
later in the night with them.

~~~
thedevilslawyer
There has to be a better solution that WFO. For example, step out for a 10
minute walk outside.

------
bamboozled
Working remotely for years and I’ve never found it to be as good of an
experience is a flexible office job.

One of the things I hate the most of the fact people just disappear and things
then take way longer to get done.

The best jobs I’ve had is probably what Reed is describing in terms of
attendance.

3-4 days in the office, flexible hours and some work from home options.

It’s a good balance and I don’t have to sacrifice some part of my house to
being an office.

------
throwaway45349
I'm going to go against the vibe on this site and agree with him. The next
Apple or Google definitely will not come from a remote working startup, and
there's undoubtedly a lot of value from in-person collaboration. In a bigger
company like Netflix this might be less important. A big part of this is the
transfer of knowledge, which isn't as easy over Zoom calls.

~~~
29athrowaway
I bet the next Apple or Google will use Linux, an operating system developed
by a globally distributed remote team, or other open source technologies.

~~~
znpy
Uhm... You're vastly underestimating the amount of work that companies like
red hat and size put into both GNU and Linux.

Yes many of the maintainers and key people are allowed to work remotely, but a
lot more people work in the office.

I don't want to against the general WFH vibe, but that statement is hardly
100% true.

~~~
RandoHolmes
Unless those companies are all in the same building, that's also
distributed...

~~~
znpy
Lol ok I guess?

------
animationwill
I have been remotely working for years, and had thought about applying to
Netflix, but if they don't have plans for remote work to continue, then I'll
consider other jobs.

------
mlthoughts2018
One of the big downsides I’ve found with my company being remote for about 6
months now is the nearly constant issues with tone and attitude in
communication channels like video calls and Slack.

I listened to one coworker tell another that they had no sense of humor and
were too “by the book” and it was disrupting the ability to communicate.

When a fraction of people worked remotely, this virtually never happened,
because with only a small set of people working remotely, people had the
mental bandwidth to devote a little extra time being sure to interpret their
tone charitably, check for assumptions and follow up more often with them to
fill in communication gaps that in-person gestures and signals would avoid.

But when everyone is remote, it’s like taking the attention and time budget
you have and dividing it by a much larger pool of people. It’s simply
intractable for a human to spread their attention like that and remain
diligent and focused on communication metadata about every pairwise colleague
interaction channel. It spreads you too thin and you run into extremely
exhausting ego depletion and decision fatigue from all these little micro
communication assessments you have to make that our brains are just not setup
or wired to handle because we’re so adapted to analog facial and voice
analysis with gestures and cues.

I despise loud, distracting open floor plans deeply, but the pandemic time
period has made me deeply question whether fully remote work would actually be
better. I feel way more tired and mentally exhausted from remote work, and
casually I’ve noticed many, many more arguments and short fuse communication
issues with everyone in my company.

I think it speaks to the evidence that the most cost effective office
environments for knowledge workers, even in dense urban centers, from the
point of view of pure short term cost savings to the company, are environments
where every individual knowledge worker has a private office with a door that
shuts, combined with separate communal workspaces for the extreme minority of
people who either need a mix or need more extraverted / social work
environments instead of quiet / private workspaces.

That way meetings naturally happen in person and it’s low-cost to setup
meetings, grab coffee together, grab lunch, etc., while still preserving the
remote work benefits of privacy and quiet.

Unfortunately though my experience working remotely has taught me that
avoiding a commute is deeply not a good reason to be remote, because the costs
in terms of worse work experiences and worse communication are way too high.

------
theodric
Looks like I'll never work at Netflix!

------
Rafuino
"Politics is tough because in many ways people elect people who lie a lot. In
business, we really try to avoid that. The skills to succeed in politics are
really quite different than in business."

I disagree with this on multiple fronts, but certainly lots of business is
built around lies and perception.

------
syndacks
I'm noticing a theme in this thread, which is the literal interpretation of
the CEO's comment, paraphrased as "WFH has no benefits".

Try to understand that this guy is cargo-culting. He's selling a vision (and a
book) -- that the Netflix way of doing things is superior to the average way
of doing things. I'm sure deep down inside he knows WFH has benefits, but
acknowledging them would go against the culture he believes is required to
keep Netflix at the top.

Many times he used sports as an analogy, and I will too -- the greatest
coaches in history say and do odd things to inspire greatness. You might not
agree with them, but you can't deny the results.

~~~
aeternum
This is my take on it as well, and some other quotes like this one also show
that he's somewhat exaggerating for effect:

WSJ: Do you have a date in mind for when your workforce returns to the office?

Mr. Hastings: Twelve hours after a vaccine is approved.

------
xoxoy
i’ve read articles that suggest the line between work and life is actually
more blurred due to WFH and people just end up working longer. logically it
makes sense when it’s all happening in your home.

~~~
vikinghckr
You just need to ask any PhD grad student why work from home is harmful for
work-life balance. Once the boundary between home and work gets blurred,
stress from work starts seeping into your personal life. Burn out rates among
software engineers will be through the roof if WFH continues for a few more
months.

~~~
Aaargh20318
> Once the boundary between home and work gets blurred, stress from work
> starts seeping into your personal life.

For me the fact that the line between work and home gets blurred reduces
stress by a huge amount. No longer do I have to do all my work in a specific
8-hour window. I don’t have to be ‘on’ for 8 consecutive hours anymore. I can
do a few hours of work, do some mindless chores around the house, then go back
to work. If I’m stuck on a problem, I can just take a break instead of sitting
at my desk going in circles. I’m more productive and more relaxed since the
start of the lockdown.

In addition, just the fact that I have access to a fully equipped kitchen
makes a world of difference when it comes to breakfast and lunch.

------
ffggvv
glad i dont work at netflix

~~~
ZanyProgrammer
I sorta had the impression that they were going to be WFH for the duration of
the pandemic, so unless the boss is trying to prepare the ground for a change,
I guess he's just complaining?

~~~
ffggvv
yeah but alot of companies are also becoming more open to longer term wfh
arrangments

------
pwinnski
"Debating ideas is harder now... I don’t see any positives. Not being able to
get together in person, particularly internationally, is a pure negative."

Some of this might be personality differences, but it sounds like how Reed
Hastings experiences work is very, very different from how I experience work.

------
46Bit
> Netflix's chairman has said working from home has no positive effects

No positive effects for him. Maybe. And even that is pretty dubious
considering we're in a pandemic and nobody is at their best.

~~~
alexbanks
And the layers and layers and layers between Netflix' CEO and non executives
probably mean he has almost no idea what he's talking about wrt general
employees.

~~~
qzx_pierri
The layers of "Yes men" are likely in agreement with whatever he believes

~~~
WalterSear
And in all likelihood have very little to do but attend and hold meetings.

~~~
jjeaff
Ya, I suspect this very fact is going to keep wfh from becoming a broad
reality. There is a lot of upper middle management that have nothing to do but
meet with people. If talking and collaborating is all you do then you are
going to push for in person.

------
Rainymood
Coming to the office once a week on friday made me realise how starved I was
for social connection.

------
rajacombinator
What do work do people at Netflix do anymore besides writing blank checks for
D-tier Hollywood garbage that no real studio wanted? Their app has been
stagnant for the past 5+ years and the delivery issues seem to have been
solved some time ago.

------
pvelagal
I always wondered how most of the open source software like apache projects ..
linux etc got built ? I guess it is “Work from home”.

------
Hypergraphe
This is an obvious statement. Working at the office surely has negative
effects too. This is a really personal matter.

------
raverbashing
From their Culture Slides and overall stories about Netflix, it seems they are
a bit different from most companies, read: move more slowly but more
predictably.

Yes, as a lot of people I've been feeling negative effects of prolonged WFH
however this talk of WFH "makes debating ideas harder" just makes me roll my
eyes. I don't think there was anything I didn't manage to do over a quick zoom
call compared to what's doable in person.

------
auggierose
I mean, they are a glorified streaming company. Probably hard to keep up the
motivation for that at home.

------
bigbassroller
my take on wfh trend is that it turns the workers office into a gig economy
and by 2021 having a job with an actual office in the same metro will be a
perk. Then the start of a new cycle will begin.

------
claudeganon
Wasn’t there a story awhile back about how Netflix does like ritualized
firings, guided by all kinds of weird dark, internal politics? Probably harder
to do over Zoom.

~~~
chromedev
A lot of employers have turned their culture more into a cult than anything
else. I feel the same way about working for AWS.

------
chromedev
I stopped subscribing to Netflix. Their recommendation engine is honestly
terrible. They'd be much better off using curated genres.

~~~
pizza234
I suspect that they have an overengineering vision. This could originate from
a culture very strongly (excessively, in this perspective) centered on
engineering.

They have a very positive view of their recommendations, like they have of
their customized thumbnails.

Yet I, and all of my friends, find the recommendations nearly useless, and I
also find the thumbnails mostly ugly.

~~~
rurp
Yeah it's really bizarre just how bad the recommendations are, even after all
of these years of development and data collection. Offsite lists and personal
recs are the only ways I've found new Netflix shows I like.

------
vikinghckr
Fully agree. Working from home is pure hell. I can't wait to go back to in-
person office, once the vaccine is out. And if my employer mandates WFH policy
even after vaccine, I'll look into renting a personal office space at least
2-3 miles away from my home. Just so I can get my commute and structure back
into my life.

~~~
tma28744
I'm genuinely curious why it's pure hell for you.

~~~
vikinghckr
Lack of clear boundary between work and home, mainly due to lack of commute
but also due to spending all day at home. Lack of in-person social
interactions at work. More procrastination leading to less productivity and
having to work longer hours to make up for it. Etc etc.

------
switch11
This is a very interesting comment so will add some thoughts to this

WFH has a huge difference in result depending on who you are, when you are (in
your career), and where you are in a company (or organization).

 __* agreed 100%

\-- For the budding young developer who can't wait to show ideas to teammates
and demonstrate being a go-getter by asking random questions and finding
unaddressed issues to innovate on, WFH might be terrible. You're going to
schedule time to fortuitously run into the senior person who takes an interest
in your idea?

* yes, for people who don't know how stuff works, company culture, how to get things done

this is very bad

\-- For the working parent whose productivity has been slashed by 50% and
stress has gone up by 50% due to parenting obligations, WFH might be terrible.

* pretty sure there are more parents who wish they could WFO than want to work from home and also homeschool their kids

\-- For the middle manager who can coast along and not need to move greatly in
his/her career, WFH might be great.

* depending on company 'coasters' can be 20% to 70%. For all of them WFH is superb because no one knows whether they are working hard or coasting. All their tricks like having certain things set up and certain screens on their monitors etc. - not needed any more

\-- For the developer who works by tickets on very concrete things and this is
nothing new, WFH might be great.

 __highly focused developers who like to shut off everything. WFH is great

Except the PM/Project Manager/Tech Lead goes crazy because then developers
start making what they find interesting and there is no way to keep them on
track

\-- For the small company CEO who relies on force of personality and everyone
in the same room urgently working to get something done, WFH might be
terrible.

 __* yea, this is absolutely terrible for anyone who has a leadership role

much of the work you get done is by leadership, and sometimes by leadership by
force of personality or by 'created' consensus

good luck getting that in a WFH scenario

 __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __*

The real test of WFH will be when we see how companies that choose WFH after
Coronoavirus, do compared to companies that go back to WFO

lots of tech companies are slobbering at the thought of cutting out office
costs and paying employees less

my money is on such companies getting trounced by teams that work together and
interact in an office environment

Right now we are in the honeymoon phase of work from home and very few (if
any) real products are being launched that were started after coronavirus
forced work from home

let's see how people feel in a year or two

It just takes 1 or 2 lazy people to bring down an entire product launch. WFH
makes it very hard to figure out who these slackers are, and even harder to
cover up their mistakes/flaws

Mythical Man Month is even more dangerous when WFH scenarios are involved

------
dang
Url changed from
[https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-54063648](https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-54063648),
which points to this.

------
oreaway
It's amusing reading all of the HN comments that insist that any attempts to
_not_ work remote must be some ploy by "the suits" and act like remote work is
some panacea for all the problems in the world.

My very large tech company did a survey this summer about remote working
conditions. Out of tens of thousands of respondents, _less than one third_
said they wanted to continue working 100% remote. Nearly half said that their
work/life balance was _worse_ when working remotely. Over one third said they
are less productive.

HN lives in a bubble of pro-remote talking points. In reality, most of the
tech workforce (to say nothing of the non-tech workforce, which I assure you
is much more anti-remote) does not enjoy it.

~~~
dang
Please don't frame comments like this as sneers at the community. Perceptions
of the community are extremely subject to bias (see
[https://hn.algolia.com/?query=notice%20dislike%20by:dang&dat...](https://hn.algolia.com/?query=notice%20dislike%20by:dang&dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&sort=byDate&type=comment))
and it detracts from the substance of your argument. The community here is
simply divided on divisive topics—reality is that tautological.

[https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html](https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html)

~~~
oreaway
It's disingenuous to frame my comment as a "sneer", and censoring (via pushing
this comment down, when it was previously the top comment of this thread)
mentions of community self-introspection is doing this community a disservice.
If it truly is not a bubble, then my post would not have been upvoted to the
top comment of the thread. Clearly it was something that people wanted to
discuss prior to your intervention. Living within an echo chamber is a bad
thing, both for the community and for society in general, and HN should be
able to discuss that without your intervention.

~~~
lolinder
Your comment was previously near the top because newer comments always start
near the top. It's gone down because it has failed to attract enough upvotes
and newer comments have taken its place. It doesn't take a moderator shadowban
for a negative comment to lose ground on HN.

~~~
oreaway
I know how HN works, but thanks for explaining it. New comments are only given
the top spot for a small time period. My comment was at the top long after
said time period, because it previously had more than enough upvotes to stay
at the top (in fact, it actually had been knocked down to middle-ish of the
thread, and then garnered enough upvotes to again be the top). As soon as dang
commented, it suddenly was at the bottom.

------
pjbk
From my experience at some workplaces, Netflix was 'a pure negative' for
office work. Every time there was a popular show, which was several times a
month, productivity at the office noticeably took a toll.

I particularly remember some colleagues behaving like zombies for a couple of
days after spending their night sleep hours binging on the platform.

------
unnouinceput
I see a lot of comments about pro WFH (family, more relaxing work schedule,
kids/pets around) and against WFH (less collaborative, can't read body
language, a quick IM is slower then a simple live question for next chair) and
while Netflix mainly talks about them - it actually boil down to one thing
only -> SEX.

Humans are a social animal and we like crowds. And with less physical work
required then in past centuries jobs became more a brain exercise and less
muscle required and with that means our brain requires more stimuli. And what
is the easiest way to entertain brain? SEX. It's way more easy to work with a
beautiful colleague alongside, it's more easy to take a coffee break and
stroll through HR area to "cleanse the eyes" over "Janet" there. That's all
about for those who hate WFH and are missing office. They can say a crap load
of reasons why they don't like WFH but it boils down to one reason that
absolutely nobody will talk about and that's SEX.

~~~
sudosteph
Lmao, you might be alone on this one. Also, doesn't your theory mean that
child-free monogamous couples who both WFH are the real winners?

~~~
n010n3
As one of these people that's absolutely correct, it rules

