

People with night-time chronotype more likely to be narcissists and psychopaths [pdf] - pdknsk
http://peterjonason.com/uploads/Chronotype.pdf

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pdknsk
2014 Ig Nobel Prize Winner (Psychology)

> Peter K. Jonason, Amy Jones, and Minna Lyons, for amassing evidence that
> people who habitually stay up late are, on average, more self-admiring, more
> manipulative, and more psychopathic than people who habitually arise early
> in the morning.

[http://www.improbable.com/ig/winners/](http://www.improbable.com/ig/winners/)

~~~
alexanderss
"The 2014 Ig Nobel Prizes were physically handed to the winners at a ceremony
at Harvard University, by five genuine Nobel Laureates"

I'm enjoying the thought of watching them being laughed at in-person at
Harvard.

~~~
nraynaud
I don't know if we should really laugh at them, sometimes it's real science,
it's just that the context or the subject makes it funny or disgusting. It's
also I think a way to release some pressure from the shitty stuff you have to
do to get some knowledge.

------
fchollet
From the article: " _It could be adaptively effective for anyone pursuing a
fast life strategy like that embodied in the Dark Triad to occupy and exploit
a low-light environment where others are sleeping and have diminished
cognitive functioning._ "

It irks me when people, sometimes even scientists, try to map ridiculous
evolutionary causality schemes over what is really just correlation.

There are over 20,000 genes in the human genome. Thousands of alleles share
some statistical pairwise correlation, as a result of evolving within a same
population. It would be pointless to seek causality links within every pair of
them (tens of millions of pairs). Most of it is random.

What these people are saying is conceptually equivalent to "blonde hair and
green eyes are correlated! That's likely because green eyes have been selected
by evolution among blonde people due to {{bullshit pop science reason}}.".
Well, nope. These characteristics just happened to co-evolve within a same
population.

~~~
w4
>It irks me when people, sometimes even scientists, try to map ridiculous
evolutionary causality schemes over what is really just correlation.

I also don't understand how the corollary (night time chronotypes will be
tired in the morning when others are alert) doesn't disqualify that aspect of
their theory.

~~~
electromagnetic
I assume their rationale is that if X% (say 5%) are the ones who stay up late
into the early hours for their scheming they are less likely to be noticed for
what they do. However being inactive when the other Y% (95%) are active isn't
as risky as anyone plotting against you is easily going to be witnessed.

There's a problem with this theory though. A lot of the witch trials contained
accusations about late night activities, which given that a lot of it was
obviously fraudulent (IIRC the last witch trial in Sweden[?] ended with the
execution of several of the accusers after one confessed after the execution
and the flogging of the witnesses for perjury) it would be arguable that we
actively targeted those who were 'night time chronotypes'.

One could equally argue it wasn't that narcissist and psychopaths got ahead by
being active late at night, but that they were the ones who were best able to
survive being active late at night. Narcissists are typically well aware of
what those around them think of them - they're charming but distant.
Psychopaths are not likely people you'd want to openly confront with weak
accusations, and Machiavellians are not people you wanted to openly accuse!
There's quite a few witch trial stories where the accusers end up being
punished, which to me sounds exactly like the work of a Machiavellian.

Survival of the fittest works two ways. One is "out performing" and the other
is "out surviving". Why do we still have alligators, crocodiles? They
certainly don't out perform mammals, neither do snakes or other reptiles. They
all live on the fringe and "out survive" the mammals. Reptiles excel at
surviving - low metabolism and low water needs means infrequent hunting and
infrequent drinking, which are two things mammals can't survive without.

The Dark Triad personalities could easily be the reptiles of the personality
world. They don't thrive, they just out survive.

~~~
lkrubner
About this:

"A lot of the witch trials contained accusations about late night activities,
which given that a lot of it was obviously fraudulent"

The rationale behind the accusations was 100% fraudulent (consorting with the
devil) so 100% of the accusations were fraudulent under any modern
understanding of due process.

There might be some crazies out there who really do believe that the Devil
exists and that people consort with him, but I assume most folks on Hacker
News are part of the modern world and reject supernatural explanations for
events.

Possibly apocryphal, but I recall in The Crucible (1952), by Arthur Miller,
one accusation is that a woman peed on the edge of a farmers field, and that
peeing was a signal to the Devil, and a few months later the farmer's crop was
destroyed by flood. This is not an accusation that would survive in a modern
court room.

~~~
electromagnetic
You're misinformed if you think all the witchcraft trials had anything to do
with "consorting with the devil".

A lot of women in the records appeared to have been healers and midwives. Many
of the records contain evidence of the practice of folk medicine/magic. It not
only brings in the issue of unhappy customers. They also take place when the
apothecary system was beginning to form in Europe, who were skilled
practitioners of herbal medicine. It's not hard to presume these early healers
had the knowledge to produce poisons, much like their successors the
apothecarist.

The majority of witchcraft trials were performed by the Catholics and most
were done so for heresy. Predominantly for pagan practices. It was the English
witchcraft trials, and those that occurred later in the Americas that focused
on the aspect of Satan/Devil. However, some of these get confusing when
according to the records the accused admit to murder and poisoning/killing
livestock before they're tortured, and we could well be seeing violent
schizophrenics who could well have believed they're possessed.

I'm not saying that any of these would pass modern due process, but assuming
away all credibility to all the claims is equally naive. There was high levels
of scepticism present right from the beginning with records of trials being
dismissed due to mental illness and 'unbalanced humours'.

Assuming they're 100% fraudulent would be extremely naive. You're no more
intelligent than they were, we've just been gifted with easier access to more
information than they ever were.

------
jaekwon
Are there any controls in the study to account for the possibility that
staying up late chronically induces those traits of narcissism/psychopathy?
Seems like the obvious hypothesis given the correlation.

------
BugBrother
So people are night owls to abuse the tiredness of the early risers? It sounds
a little to pat. What use is it to be manipulative of people that say "Talk
about that tomorrow. <Yawn>"?!

For instance, what is cause and effect? Many people become night owls when
they get disconnected from normal society (studying/working alone for more
than a few days). And the Dark Triad people are disconnected from other people
emotionally, by definition.

(Another question -- is it only Machiavellian people that think sick people
should have a right to their own lives and be allowed assisted suicide?! I
call that bravely showing mercy, despite having to face horrible facts about
the situation? Or is that what Machiavellian people do?)

Edit: I am aware of the definition of Machiavellian, 6d0debc071. The example I
took up in parentheses was from the article.

~~~
turingfail
I'm also puzzled by the assisted suicide question. I would think being against
it as a healthy person might be a sign of greedy self interest, i.e. their
right to the sick family member over the needs of the family member.

There is also this little gem:

Primary psychopathy also had a non-significant trend towards morning
chronotype, (b = .16, p < .10)

I had to combine it with this:

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychopathy#Primary_and_seconda...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychopathy#Primary_and_secondary)

It sounds like people who have been abused by mainstream society or have
awareness and anxiety about potential abuses tend towards nights and avoidance
of banking hours as a loss avoidance, and people who feel they can actually
exploit others (leadership skills, primary psychopaths, CEOs) like day time
hours to seek their social gains.

Perhaps they need to look at a society that runs differently to understand the
links. For example, Egypt tends toward later hours to avoid daytime heat. Are
secondary psychopaths morning people in Egypt and leaders and/or primary
psychopaths night time people?

