
Canada’s tech sector is hemorrhaging talent [audio] - yannickt
http://www.canadalandshow.com/podcast/ep-147-why-johnny-cant-innovate-canadas-tech-sector/
======
Danieru
If you want canadian talent you can get it, but you cannot pretend you deserve
it. You must work for it.That means identifying talent in university before
the Microsoft or Google recruiters get ahold of their resume. It means finding
developers before the skill is obvious for the big corps. Then you treat them
well and have them start their career before graduation.

During my university the local division of Coverity did a good job of this.
They sponsored the programming club events. They sent real engineers to every
career fair. They gave internships to 2 years. They kept on skilled
programmers throughout the year. One guy I knew got married and bought a house
while working part time there even before graduation.

I would say that company grabbed the majority of the high-performing nice-to-
work-with students from my year. The only ones they did not get was me (video
game programming japan), and my friend (C++ standard library programming at
google).

Or you could whine about why you deserve to get Canada's best at insulting
wages. Maybe that will work.

~~~
SuperPaintMan
>Or you could whine about why you deserve to get Canada's best at insulting
wages. Maybe that will work.

Had a opportunity with a Ontario based startup, their starting package was 40k
and they wanted me to relocate. When pushing for a better salary, I was told
this was the best they could offer. Fucking insulting wage for a backend
developer (Go/Appengine)

~~~
flamedoge
Again and again, why don't Canadian companies understand that CS graduate can
easily earn 100k in the states and can actually afford a house? How can they
offer what they offer and stay competitive?

~~~
yazaddaruvala
I grew up in Vancouver, went to high-school there, whet to UBC there. My
family is in Vancouver. The majority of my friends are in Vancouver. I own
real-estate in Vancouver. I eventually want to move back to Vancouver. I can
safely say I love Vancouver. However, I currently live in Seattle. Why? The
money!

As frustrating as it is to admit, and as uninteresting as it is, the simple
answer is usually the most appropriate:

Canadian companies like their tier-2 low wage talent (and some tier-1 low wage
talent - who prefer Canada). Its good enough for their usecases, and it gets
the job done. Meanwhile, they like to complain that they can't hire tier-1 low
wage talent.

That is the only answer I can come up with!

~~~
throwwit
Seems the philosophy Canada is going with is 'revolving-door', by balancing
emigration with immigration[1][2]. What happens when the economy slows and
there's record household debt? There should be more bedrock jobs than just a
derivative function of the global economy.

[1][http://www.canadianbusiness.com/innovation/how-canadas-
immig...](http://www.canadianbusiness.com/innovation/how-canadas-immigration-
policy-is-failing-high-tech-startups/)

[2] [http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/john-mccallum-
substantially-...](http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/john-mccallum-
substantially-increase-immigration-labour-shortages-1.3718831)

------
bishnu
When I was searching for entry level SWE jobs in Canada in 2011 after abruptly
dropping out of grad school, I applied to ~50 positions and interviewed at
around a dozen (public+private sector) in Vancouver + Alberta, all paying
$50K-$60K.

A year later, Google swooped in with an offer that quintupled my compensation.
The thing that struck me about it most was the supposedly-intense Google
programmer interviews were actually far less difficult than most of the all-
day interviews I did for Canadian institutions. I was a bit outraged that
these interviews could be so tough for such meager compensation, especially
given the cost of living in Vancouver. I was surprised they were able to get
away with it, and it looks like it's starting to bite them in the ass, for
which I am glad.

Edit: The specific places I would name, if anyone's curious, are Zymeworks and
SAP in Vancouver, as well as staff research positions at UBC, University of
Calgary, and the BC Cancer Agency.

~~~
im_down_w_otp
You make $250k-$300k/yr for an entry-level software engineering job?

~~~
beachstartup
yeah, sure. for google/apple/facebook/etc. 150k cash + 100k+ equity and bonus
compensation sounds about right. on a good year, add another 100k. on a really
good year, add another 250k. on a really really good year, add a couple
million. who do you think is buying all these houses?

the first step to making this kind of money is not settling for anything less,
because opportunity is the biggest cost. when was the last time you turned
down 150k to wait for a better offer?

~~~
EmployedRussian
I've worked at Google for 8 years.

The only way you are likely to see "another 100k on a good year" is if you
sell _all_ the RSUs you've got that year.

I've see a few people "add a couple of million" when their project of 7 years
succeeded, but these were very senior people.

I think it's an illusion to think that rank and file SWEs will ever have an
"add a few million" year.

> who do you think is buying all these houses?

I see very few rank and file Google SWEs being able to afford anything within
1 hour commute of Mountain View.

~~~
beachstartup
so what you're saying is, you've seen everything i've described happen, at
least to "a few people", and you're just one guy.

------
theGimp
Any Canadian developer will tell you the problem is the abysmal pay that
Canadian companies offer.

I love my country and would love nothing more than to stay here, but when
moving south of the border means a 50% bump, it's hard to stay in Canada.

It doesn't help that most Canadian CEOs talk about the issue as if they're
entitled to Canadian graduates working for them without making any attempt at
matching US pay packages.

~~~
sdm
> Any Canadian developer will tell you the problem is the abysmal pay that
> Canadian companies offer.

Companies can't pay money they don't have. In my experience as a Canadian
founder, Canadian companies are just poorer. We'd love to pay more but then
we'd be bankrupt.

~~~
csdreamer7
Are not most of your customers (at least for tech companies) in the US?
Wouldn't the weak Canadian dollar help you in that respect? I understand taxes
are higher in Canada, but in the US most tech companies have to contribute to
medical insurance.

~~~
sdm
In our case, most of our customers are not in the US. But, with the exception
of local customers and and customers that have Canadian subsidiaries (we deal
mainly with enterprise customers) -- most customers pay in USD. If you're a
large US tech company looking to near-shore, the low dollar is great; but, not
so much if you're a local company.

* Our non-salary expenses are largely paid in USD (hosting, cloud services, etc) * Developer salaries are in a global-ish market and we've seen salaries shoot up greatly because of the falling dollar to compete the falling purchasing power of the CAD * Large US companies opening up local development offices further driving the * Revenues lag the costs of salaries and other services -- we have to pay our staff, hosting, cloud services before we receive revenue. Of course, this is always the case, but with the falling dollar you feel it more, especially in the case of salaries

In short, this is not manufacturing where your inputs and salaries are largely
localized. At best the falling dollar is a push and at worst it's a negative
impact. Really, it's currency volatility that is more the issue, if it would
stabilize and stay that way for a few years, it would make planning and
adapting much easier. This year alone, we've seen 0.68 dollar and a 0.79
dollar.

Add to this:

* The general "Canadian Discount" US VC give to Canadian companies and the stinginess of Canadian VC * The SRED roulette -- it's not really free money as described, you have to spend it then pray the government will give you the tax credits. In my experience what's decided as SRED-able can really depend on who the reviewer is, it's more of a lottery than anything else unless you can dedicate someone basically full time maintaining SRED records. Also, you can't pay for salaries and services with tax credits -- they only help for the next year if you have profits.

Actually, corporate taxes are lower for a Canadian Controlled Corporation than
the equivalent US company, but that doesn't really factor into things like
salaries. Taxes are on profits and salaries are before profits. Also, most
Canadian companies, especially in the tech sector, also have to contribute to
medical insurance. You're going to have a hard time recruiting without
extended health care benefits.

All that said, I am positive on running a company here. Just would like less
uncertainty in terms of exchange rates.

~~~
aianus
You're going to have a hard time recruiting twenty-somethings without vision
and dental, really?

I pay for that stuff out of pocket and it's like, $500 a year.

~~~
derefr
Keep in mind that _because_ Canada has no public dental coverage, people who
live the serial-entrepreneurship life, never signing on with companies large
enough to have benefits-plans, just have constantly worsening teeth. I have a
non-negligible number of friends here who want to work at a bigcorp for a
while just so they can finally get coverage to do 5+ root canals. (As it
stands, they're just constantly taking anti-inflammatories and antibiotics to
get through the days.)

~~~
aianus
You can get your dental work done in third world countries for cash for cheap.
I got my wisdom tooth out for $30 in Vietnam. Same procedure is $400 in
Canada.

------
canistr
I listened to the podcast yesterday and while the premise is correct, the
episode is actually lousy at explaining any of it, discussing anything that
happened at the meetings with "leaders", and ultimately had the wrong people
discussing the topic. This ended sounding like a platform for Dan Debow to
talk about whatever agenda he wanted with little REAL pushback from the host.

The only reassuring thing about this podcast was the brief mention that Ted
Livingston (of Kik) was at those talks with so-called "leaders of Canada". I
mean, do we really expect the likes of Galen Weston, Magna International, and
the like to really talk about innovation or tech? Other than Kik, which of
those companies would any person on HN really be interested in working at?

~~~
dmix
This is sadly how policy decisions get made in government. The smart people
building stuff are usually busy building stuff and are turned off of events
with titles like "leaders of Canada". At the same time, a lot of the
successful Canadian founders, who would have time for this, found success via
acquisition by US companies and aren't around to attend.

I'm curious if there are articles about Canada hemorrhaging math/finance
talent to New York? Or is this just something we perpetually complain about in
tech as if talent/industry centralization wasn't a phenomenon in almost every
big new market in history.

All of our good Canadian musicians, comedians, and actors go to the US and
become big, countless have done so. That's how we can tell if their good or
not, usually. And nothings wrong with that. No one complained when Drake
signed to a US label when his new career took off...

~~~
indlebe
>All of our good Canadian musicians, comedians, and actors go to the US and
become big, countless have done so.

Not the Tragically Hip. But they always seemed happy with that.

~~~
Naga
You know, I think it's a myth that they aren't popular there. They're no
Rolling Stones, but they still fill concert halls and festivals!

But they never sold their souls to the States and they seem very proud of it.

------
iamshs
When I was searching for jobs, could not just believe the startup offers. $35K
- $45K in Vancouver. I would have felt like a slave working for that kind of
money in Vancouver. Albertan co-op guy would easily earn double that. I have
not researched other nuances of this situation, but it put me off that scene
entirely. Unfortunately, great white north will keep bleeding talent.

~~~
randlet
$35-45k sounds insane for Vancouver. FWIW, jobs I currently see advertised in
the Toronto/Waterloo region (both on Stack Overflow and by recruiters) for
mid-level devs are more like $70k-$110k.

~~~
sdm
$70k-$110k is pretty much standard for mid-level devs in Vancovuer as well.

------
walrus01
Vancouver: consistently ranked as one of the world's top ten most expensive
cities, with salaries half of what you can make in Seattle.

The Vancouver technology sector is also a joke compared to Seattle... To the
extent that hootsuite is a 'big deal' there.

~~~
sdm
Actually Vancouver is never ranked in the top ten most expensive cities in the
world. This is a myth that gets put around Vancouver due to Demographia's
horrible annual which gets broadcast everywhere and horribly misinterpreted.
They only look at a handful of Anglosphere cities and only look at housing
affordability. But housing affordability is meaningless for gauging how
expensive a city is -- you don't have to buy a house, you can rent, etc. Also,
they have a stated goal of encouraging lower density and promoting sprawl and
have ties to the automotive industry.

If you look at actual studies of the cost of living in cities around the
world, like from Mercer or the Economist, Vancouver is closer to the upper
middle in terms of cost of living.

~~~
walrus01
> you can rent

Vancouver literally has a 0.5% rental vacancy rate right now. If you put up an
ad on Craigslist for an apartment for rent it'll get 50 replies in two hours.
People are getting into bidding wars on apartments.

~~~
sdm
Yes, it's an increasingly tight market right now -- I just moved at the start
of August -- but rents are still reasonable here for a city of Vancouver's
size and development. Though this may change if the market if the current
tightness, which only started about 6 months ago, maintains for a few years.

The point remains, if you rent in Vancouver the city doesn't rank very high on
the most expensive cities in the world list.

~~~
derefr
I'm not sure what you're saying here: the value of a commodity is measured by
the probability distribution of being able to buy that commodity for a given
price. If it's hard to find a unit to rent at price $X, that's the _same
thing_ as units being more expensive than $X. Imagine paying an agent to watch
MLS and leap on offers for you, or paying other people to temporarily leave
the market, or just spending your work-hours at home on the phone to realtors,
etc. The inefficiency of those things is, itself, part of the cost of the
unit.

------
ahmeni
I grew up in Vancouver and miss it daily but none of the salaries would allow
me to purchase a house anywhere closer than New Westminster. Instead now I
live in Sydney, Aus and have the same cost of living but a salary that's
scaled appropriately.

~~~
iamshs
Hell man, I even miss Edmonton. Haha. I also moved to Australia.

------
nwmcsween
The issue is the wages, in Vancouver where a house is easily in the many
millions companies seem to think it's fine and dandy to pay 80k a year in the
high range, ultra high range is 120k/y and get this - low level assembly and C
programming generally pays less than ruby or js.

------
fatdog
Companies in Canada don't pay as much because a) there is a talent pool who
will take what they are offering, b) they don't make enough revenue from a
given dev to justify high salaries, or c) their investors do not see the
risk/reward payoff of investing in top tier devs.

As for a), yes, Canada's multiculturalism attracts migrants, who in spite of
their talent have a crappy negotiating position and are easily taken advantage
of. Everyone has a story of the guy who barely speaks english but who can code
getting worked like a dog for peanuts.

for b) for software in Canada, you sell to the 5 banks or government. it's
recurring license fees from stable customers but in a limited market.

And c) there is no market for software in canada that would justify a billion
dollar valuation. Those valuations were based on cornering a user base to use
as a sales channel.

Further Canada's de-facto official policy of currency debasement to keep
industrial exports afloat means limited purchasing power for citizens,
therefore anything that succeeds has to succeed somewhere else.

It's a great place to outsource your dev shop, kind of like a more reliable
India or Belarus, but as a market it's just not large enough for to reap the
network effect / micro-margin/infinite scale benefits of software solutions.

------
ced
Does anyone know why the pay is so much lower? It seems lame to blame it on
"culture" (if it's really true, that's a great arbitrage opportunity). Are
there systemic country-wide forces that push down on the salaries?

------
robertelder
A huge factor that I don't see any comments about yet, is the exchange rate.
Look at this chart of the USD/CAD in the past 3 years:

[http://www.xe.com/currencycharts/?from=USD&to=CAD&view=10Y](http://www.xe.com/currencycharts/?from=USD&to=CAD&view=10Y)

A 35-40% swing in the purchasing power of the currency is a pretty big deal.

~~~
ahmeni
This was still an issue when the currencies were closer to parity but the
swing only makes things worse.

~~~
cylinder
It'll never stop being an issue. You're in tech you go to SV, you're in
entertainment you go to LA, you're in international criminal law you go to The
Hague, you're in particle smashing you go to Europe, you're into iron ore
mining you go to Perth, etc.

Countries will just blow tax money trying to change things. Focus on your core
competencies.

~~~
twblalock
What are Canada's core competencies? Where does it have a comparative
advantage?

~~~
aianus
Potash, diamonds, gold, seal fur, oil sands. We basically dig things out of
the ground and sell them to the US, it's really lame :(

~~~
wstrange
You forgot maple syrup. We have even have a strategic supply of the stuff

------
grownseed
As others have said, the salaries aren't particularly enticing and this is
being felt strongly in a place as expensive as Vancouver. Interestingly, I
think this might drive a boost in immigration - the reason I can stay in
Vancouver is by having my job here, or going through the immigration ordeal
with another company. I don't think it's a particularly healthy situation
whichever way you look at it.

------
karma_vaccum123
Grew up there, went to Queen's, but after one crappy job in Ottawa in 1995, I
left for the Bay Area for good.

Now when I go back I'm struck by the high prices, high taxes, and a general
(and sadly very Canadian) aversion to risk.

I used to brag about Canada and honestly felt it was a better place to
live...I don't think that any more.

~~~
jomamaxx
Canada is a great place to live for most people, frankly, probably better than
the US.

It's not a good place for talent.

~~~
rublev
>Canada is a great place to live for most people, frankly, probably better
than the US.

No it's not. Most youth have zero dreams related to property ownership, as
everything near the core and cities that are near the core are prohibitively
expensive. There is a general apathy and malaise here.

"Just move outside of the city" they say, to suburbs that are also priced
500k+, and _just_ far enough to _only_ have to spend an hour and a half
commuting to your city job.

~~~
jomamaxx
Having lived all over the world, all over Canada, and in Texas and Cali for
many years, I can assure you that Canada is pretty good.

You have clearly never lived in the Silicon Valley if you're talking about
housing.

Housing in the Valley is beyond unaffordable. A choice job at Google and you
still won't be buying a home.

You're probably young, and single. Your class has always struggled with home
ownership. Most couples can afford to get in on the housing ladder by buying
and apartment, and in some year, buy a home.

That said - Toronto and Vancouver are distorted markets right now. Everywhere
else in Canada is pretty normal and home ownership is similar to most places
in the US that are not NYC/SF.

~~~
twblalock
> A choice job at Google and you still won't be buying a home.

That's just not true. Housing is very expensive, but a "choice" job at Google
pays enough to buy a home. The same goes for Apple, Facebook, Amazon, and the
other large companies. Their compensation for mid- and senior-level people is
so good that it's difficult to convince them to leave, even for considerable
startup equity.

~~~
jomamaxx
Median home price sale in Santa Clara is 1.25 Million dollars.

That's like $7K a month mortgage payment. $82K/year. You need to be earning
$200K to pay that.

There are surely a lot of people at Google earning $200K, but not that many in
relative terms. Most devs with a few years experience won't earn that.

If you need to earn $200K to be able to afford a home, I would say that's
ridiculous.

Most Google developers are very talented and educated, and will not be able to
buy a home. That sucks.

~~~
thedufer
> Most devs with a few years experience won't earn that.

How sure of that are you? I don't have a lot of data points, but 3.5 years of
experience got me a 270k offer from Google. I find it hard to believe it was
_that_ much higher than average.

~~~
jomamaxx
Average base salary at Google is 128 according to this:

[http://www.businessinsider.com/a-google-programmer-blew-
off-...](http://www.businessinsider.com/a-google-programmer-blew-
off-a-500000-salary-at-startup--because-hes-already-making-3-million-every-
year-2014-1)

~~~
thedufer
I don't think base salary is a very good measure of compensation at places
like Google. Are you suggesting that RSUs and bonuses be valued at $0?

------
Terr_
Amusingly, I've been informed that my company's corporate overlords have
decided to focus on growing Vancouver as their "centralized" west-coast-
development location, rather than Seattle, primarily due to salaries.

So I guess we'll have to see if that works out for them.

~~~
ayuvar
For awhile Facebook was using their Vancouver office to 'park' foreign talent
until they could secure H1Bs for them to go to the US offices, because it was
much easier to get a work visa for that talent in Canada.

------
noarchy
Getting by as a tech worker in Canada is possible. The way I made it work was
to take remote roles. Don't live in the Vancouver or Toronto areas, if
possible - that's just not going to work, given the out-of-control cost of
living associated with both areas. There are still plenty of places one can
live in Canada that are not saddled with such costs.

~~~
derefr
What exactly is the benefit of living in Canada if you're outside of the
cities, anyway? From what I can see (having lived in both urban and rural
Canada, and the US) Canadian cities have a unique character, but rural Canada
is pretty much the same as rural America. If you don't care about living
"near" anything, why does it matter what country you're doing it in?

------
ommunist
Wait and see British coming to Canada. Brexit changed the odds.

~~~
millak
Actually planning that move myself. My Canadian wife and I had it planned
before Brexit, but Brexit seems to have justified it! Threads like this are a
little disconcerting however.

