
China is increasingly using exit bans to bar Americans from leaving - onetimemanytime
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2019/09/14/china-increasingly-using-exit-bans-bar-americans-leaving/2269191001/
======
keiferski
I call it “crying wolf in reverse”: The problem with being a totalitarian
state that falsely imprisons people on a regular basis is that you’ve lost all
moral authority when it comes to arresting people for actual crimes. If you’ve
falsified evidence, conducted show trials and made a mockery of rule of law
before, why should anyone believe you when you say it’s a _real_ crime this
time?

~~~
luckylion
> why should anyone believe you when you say it’s a real crime this time?

Because it does not matter to anybody. Saddam didn't have the WMDs, the
evidence was manufactured. Did that fundamentally change anything with regards
to the trustworthiness of US government & media when they claim some middle
eastern country is developing/using WMDs?

On the international level, power matters. Political power, military power,
economic power, not your reputation.

~~~
gruez
>Did that fundamentally change anything with regards to the trustworthiness of
US government & media when they claim some middle eastern country is
developing/using WMDs?

When was the last time that US used the WMDs excuse to drag allies into war?

~~~
YeahSureWhyNot
less than 20 years ago and that's very recent in war terms. the same (failed)
excuse wont be used again because its always better to fabricate something new
thats not related to the last one which turned out to be not true.

~~~
IllogicalLogic
Let's be honest, they pivoted from WMD to the much larger and vaguer umbrella
of "terrorist" or "terrorist supporter". This has allowed the USA and its
allies to indiscriminately kill millions since the Iraq invasion (and rake in
billions in weapons deals).

It's always funny when we ignore the mass murderer in the room and instead
focus on China's quite measured response to crime.

------
green-eclipse
This is really bad since China doesn't have a working court system to fall
back on:

[https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-
mix/wp/2014/03/1...](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-
mix/wp/2014/03/11/china-scored-99-9-percent-conviction-rate-last-year/)

~~~
a3n
They do have a very effective working court system. The question is who it
works for.

~~~
tmepdidjdj
It works for the politburo standing committee and Xi. The legal system are
“stewards” for the Chinese government (according the white paper to Hong
Kong).

Hence you find so many people in China vying for government jobs because if
you climb high enough, the law is below you. That is very dangerous because
the only accountability is the person on top.

------
dirtyid
Alternate title: China doesn't give carte blanche to foreign fraudsters and
spies.

In context of Victor and Cynthia Lu, the siblings father is accused of
embezzling 1.4 billion. From memory, millions of assets was put under their
names in form of US real estate making them legally culpable. More
importantly:

>The Chinese Foreign Ministry defended the holding of the three family
members, saying: “The people you mentioned all own legal and valid identity
documents as Chinese citizens. Because they are suspected of economic crimes,
they are restricted from exiting the country by the Chinese police in
accordance with the law.”

[https://www.nytimes.com/2018/11/25/us/politics/china-exit-
ba...](https://www.nytimes.com/2018/11/25/us/politics/china-exit-ban.html)

China doesn't allow dual citizenship, Chinese nationals (including HKers) who
naturalize abroad is suppose to renounce their Chinese citizenship. Many
don't, choosing to travel on Chinese papers for expediency (no need for VISA)
etc which subjects them to Chinese law. There's no extradition treaty to China
which makes these dumb administration hacks backfire. The article also covered
spouse of suspects arrested on suspicion of spying... which no shit justifies
exit bans.

E: I think the greater story is that white expats in some countries no longer
get preferential treatment due to trade war (US + Canada), and ex Chinese
nationals are not safe from CPC reach just because they have a passport with
no PRC extradition treaty, but especially if they're being dumb and travelling
to China using Chinese papers they were suppose to renounce.

~~~
khuey
Despite your attempts to dress them up as being somehow "legally culpable"
they have been charged with no crimes despite being detained for more than a
year.

Their mistake was traveling to a totalitarian communist dictatorship and
expecting _not_ to be at risk of arbitrary detention.

~~~
djsumdog
Remember the case of the German engineer who was arrested in Florida while
trying to return home after his vacation?

[https://www.heraldtribune.com/news/20171206/vw-executive-
arr...](https://www.heraldtribune.com/news/20171206/vw-executive-arrested-in-
florida-gets-7-years-in-diesel-scandal)

~~~
JoeAltmaier
...who was complicit in a billion dollar fraud in the US. How is that
comparable, exactly?

~~~
gumby
Because those siblings are believed to be complicit in a billion dollar fraud.

~~~
mlyle
Hardly works as a counterpoint, because doesn't satisfy what the original
commenter said: "Despite your attempts to dress them up as being somehow
"legally culpable" _they have been charged with no crimes despite being
detained for more than a year._ "

~~~
8note
wouldn't an equivalent counterpoint then be to ship them to Guantanamo?

~~~
privateSFacct
and waterboard them there while saying publicly you remain committed to human
rights -> despite never charging them?

------
kchoudhu
Most Americans have forgotten that the first rule of international travel is
not to overtly fuck with totalitarian regimes.

With the unipolar world of the last thirty years coming to a messy end, that's
a lesson we're going to have internalize again. Be humble, be careful with the
risks you take abroad, and steer clear of overtly dangerous places.

~~~
narnianal
The basic idea is to not fuck with any local system/law/culture if you're
abroad.

~~~
jMyles
I don't agree with the word "any" here. There's nothing wrong with taking a
disruptive approach to oppression when you witness it, but calculating your
position relative to the system/law/culture so that you are able to live
freely to act justly another day - that can be the tricky part.

I remember seeing hotel staff act in an overtly and disgustingly racist way in
Cape Town, South Africa. As a tourist, hotel guest, American, and white
person, I knew that I had all of the systemic privilege on my side. So I had
no problem assisting the underprivileged people in that situation.

Now, with a powerful totalitarian system like China, it might be a different
calculation.

~~~
chillacy
That's a great thing you've done in Cape Town. I remember reading Trevor
Noah's book where he talks about how his father challenged Apartheid with his
integrated restaurant, but ultimately got shut down by government inspectors
making impossible hoops for him to jump through.

~~~
jMyles
I actually still keep in touch with two of the guys who were being treated
unfairly. It was a crazy situation, but not without a touch of comedy. I need
to write about it sometime.

------
cheez
I recently had an opportunity to go work in China for 6 months and declined
for this reason (and others.)

~~~
uwuhn
I think you're probably going to be ok if you aren't related to anyone wanted
by the Chinese government. I'm not trying to downplay the severity of what
they're doing by holding people as bargaining chips, but a random person
should be safe. Unless you get framed for something, which is entirely
possible. Or you simply piss off the wrong person.

~~~
unreal37
Sorry, but this seems to be a naive view.

China is known to arrest people and/or grant extreme sentences in retaliation
for things going on in world politics.

Recently China has been executing Canadians in retaliation for an arrest of a
Chinese citizen at the request of the United States.[1]

Many people view these arrests at retaliation.

[1] [https://www.cnn.com/2019/01/15/china/china-canada-
executions...](https://www.cnn.com/2019/01/15/china/china-canada-executions-
africa-intl/index.html)

~~~
amaccuish
So drug offences are in china punishable by death. Previously, I think China
was a lot more leniant on westerners committing such offences; they held them
for a bit, then sent them home and banned them from reentering.

Here, they decided to enforce the law fully. You can argue it's unfair because
the attitude of the state has changed and likely because of geopolitics. But
from my point of view, the death penalty for drug offences was always a risk,
so you're on your own if you decide to do stuff like that anyway.

So the tl;dr is, white westerners no longer get a free pass in foreign
country.

~~~
stjohnswarts
Can't really believe someone is actually supporting the death penalty for
minor drug offenses as a good place to start with proving their point.

~~~
dwaltrip
Not saying he should have been executed, but smuggling 500 pounds of meth is
not a minor offense.

~~~
dehrmann
That will get you executed in Singapore, though the process for that happening
is better understood.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:SingaporeEmbarkationCard....](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:SingaporeEmbarkationCard.png)

------
quaquaqua1
>Thoudands of Chinese citizens have been subjected to the ban, including an
unknown number of foreigners.

A good question here would be if the "foreigners" as defined are, for example,
Asian-Australians or Asian-Americans who are not Chinese passport holders but
were raised by Chinese parents.

I imagine that anyone can be accused of spying, but so far it seems it is
mostly happening along racial lines.

The reason I am asking is because my girlfriend is an H1B Chinese citizen and
she is required to return to China next year to renew some paperwork. I want
to come with her to visit the country and I'm curious what the (small) odds
are that we would have a problem.

Out of the many millions of people who visit China every year, it seems like
you roughly run a 0.01% chance of having a problem, which is non-zero but also
not terrible. Theoretically you have to piss off some authorities at a high
level to warrant de facto house arrest.

~~~
chrischen
Most Americans visit even North Korea as part of tour groups without issue...
up until that kid decided to steal propaganda. These scary stories are vastly
overblown. Barack Obama’s half brother lives in China... if nothing has
happened to him frankly _you_ are nowhere important enough for anyone to care.

~~~
mandarinqer
I don’t think this comparison is apt; although, I don’t necessarily disagree
with your conclusion. Simply because China would think 10x as hard before
making a move on a former presidents brother. Whereas, it’s a much easier
decision to mess with a nobody.

------
mirimir
The discussion is mostly about whether China is justified, and whether the US
does similar things.

What interests me is the fact that, as pretty much an American, I just don't
understand Chinese culture. The TFA doesn't discuss Chinese public opinion
about these cases. But in analogy to the Hong Kong situation, I suspect that
the public isn't sympathetic.

Of course, from an American perspective, social control and propaganda
obviously account for that. But what if those weren't the main factors?

Is it really true that individuals don't matter so much in Chinese culture?
Except mainly how they affect society, that is.

But maybe that's far too simplistic.

And of course, I have similar questions about what American culture is really
about. Or even if there is such a thing.

~~~
Leary
Educated people from western countries have political norms that they think
are universal but are actually highly contingent on the Enlightenment. These
values such as freedom and democracy have some limited play in China but are
not esteemed to the same extent, especially after Communist ideologies became
dominant after 1949. Rather than considering liberalism as a normative end to
pursue, Chinese were more likely to treat it as way to pursue national wealth
and power.

------
chiefalchemist
When I was a kid China was always referred to as Communist China. As it became
profitable and acceptable to do business with China the Communist prefix was
conveniently dropped.

"Exit bans" are unfortunate, but certainly no surprise to those who still
remember to use the prefix.

------
jl2718
These cases clearly have nothing to do with the current president or any
American policy. If the author has no rational justification for their
position, I will assume they have a dishonest purpose, and therefore I should
be inclined to believe and act the opposite way they want me to.

------
sverige
Apparently people have forgotten that China is governed by a communist
dictatorship, or they wouldn't be surprised by this behavior.

~~~
guelo
I would call it a capitalist dictatorship at this point.

~~~
sverige
Kleptocracy != Capitalism

~~~
AsyncAwait
Authoritarianism != Socialism

~~~
sverige
They call themselves communists and explicitly avow Marxism. If they're not
socialists / communists, no one is.

~~~
AsyncAwait
I was specifically responding to the claim that crony capitalism is not
representative of capitalism and made a counterpoint of how you could defend
almost any system that way.

Nonetheless, it's pretty well accepted that China is more capitalist today
than ever, that's not really controversial.

------
tomohawk
Related: Canada Picks "Hostage Negotiator" As China Envoy

[https://www.asiatimes.com/2019/09/article/canada-picks-
hosta...](https://www.asiatimes.com/2019/09/article/canada-picks-hostage-
negotiator-as-china-envoy/?_=3160406)

------
verroq
The Americans cannot step into an US embassy and be carried out in a
diplomatic bag?

~~~
alexis_fr
As far as I know, occurrences of diplomatic bags for carrying persons have
been extremely, extremely rare (less than a dozen) and are forbidden.

~~~
sgift
> and are forbidden.

That's correct - Article 27,4 of the "Vienna Convention on Diplomatic
Relations":

The packages constituting the diplomatic bag must bear visible external marks
of their character and may contain only diplomatic documents or articles
intended for official use.

[http://legal.un.org/ilc/texts/instruments/english/convention...](http://legal.un.org/ilc/texts/instruments/english/conventions/9_1_1961.pdf)

~~~
gruez
Can't the embassy designate them as diplomatic couriers? Article 27.5 say they
have immunity, and 27.6 says they can be assigned ad hoc.

~~~
alexis_fr
They can, but the receiving country can also kick out the ambassador and, more
frequently, I believe recently some country kicked more than 10 diplomats,
perhaps US against Russia.

------
udfalkso
Anecdote: I visited China in July for 3 weeks. I'm an American. They let me
leave.

------
anovikov
The government must help it's citizens, especially as ban is unlawful and has
nothing to do with any kind of criminal prosecution. One thing if they were
arrested, but this... Why not just extract them?

~~~
tln
Maybe because challenging China's sovereignty is risky? Just a guess. It's a
good question.

With the rapid growth of global tourism, there are a lot more citizens
visiting different countries. I wonder if the state dept (or equivalent in
other govts) are getting stretched.

The article makes it clear that China is making up criminal cases to justify
exit bans, as well.

~~~
anovikov
Just an inflatable boat and a sub in coastal waters. Massive ECM cover if they
mention anything. And denial after.

What also works is making the most of these cases in PR sense. To show people
that travel to China is risky. Must be a good way of impeding their economic
growth and world influence, who wants to deal in a country like that.

~~~
gruez
>Just an inflatable boat and a sub in coastal waters.

I have a feeling that they're probably being monitored, so that probably won't
go very well.

------
peterwwillis
Other side of that coin is America using entry bans as a political tool. Lots
of families here in the US have family abroad that aren't allowed to enter the
country and reunite, because banning an entire country due to "terrorism"
looks good at the polls.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Executive_Order_13780#Current_...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Executive_Order_13780#Current_status_of_restrictions)

Who is downvoting this? Explain yourselves.

~~~
umvi
That's... not really the same. One of them is Hotel California, the other you
are inconvenienced for where your family reunions will happen.

~~~
peterwwillis
One of them is Hotel California, the other is "I would like to see my mother
again and have her meet my children, but she isn't allowed in the country," or
"my brother is stuck in a war-torn country and I can't get him out." It's not
just an inconvenience, it's families that are forcibly separated for totally
bullshit reasons. (In addition it's "I can't take a job in the US", "I can't
support my family members in time of crisis", and so on)

Here: [https://www.nytimes.com/2018/07/01/world/americas/travel-
ban...](https://www.nytimes.com/2018/07/01/world/americas/travel-ban-trump-
how-it-works.html)

    
    
      - The number of people who fall under the ban exceeds 135 million
      - The majority are in the five Muslim-majority nations, led by Iran, with a population of more than 80 million
    

_" The executive order "affects the lives and families" of at least 187 Google
employees"_
([https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/williamalden/nearly-200...](https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/williamalden/nearly-200-google-
employees-are-affected-by-trumps-immigrati))

[https://www.americanprogress.org/issues/race/news/2017/02/09...](https://www.americanprogress.org/issues/race/news/2017/02/09/414802/the-
real-effect-of-trumps-muslim-ban/)

 _" Dr. Suha Abushamma, 26, is an internal medicine resident at the Cleveland
Clinic. Although she had an H-1B visa for workers in “specialty occupations,”
which should allow her to enter, live, and work in the United States,
Abushamma was not permitted to enter the country. Abushamma holds a passport
from Sudan, which is one of the banned nations."_

 _" Sahar Algonaimi, 60, was detained for five hours at Chicago O’Hare
International Airport following the issuance of the executive order.
Algonaimi, a Syrian national, had traveled to the United States from Saudi
Arabia to visit her 76-year-old mother who is recovering from surgery for
breast cancer. Although she held a U.S. visa and had planned to stay in the
country for a week, she was she was forced to board a flight to the United
Arab Emirates instead of being allowed to clear customs."_

 _" “I needed someone to be with me here,” Ulayyet said through tears at the
hospital. “How am I going to teach my kids and tell them that this is a free
country? How can we tell my kids that we have to take care of each other?”"_

You don't think these sound similar to the OP?

~~~
umvi
> One of them is Hotel California, the other is "I would like to see my mother
> again and have her meet my children, but she isn't allowed in the country,"

In one of them you are literally a prisoner. In the other you still have
options.

More like: "I would like to see my mother again, but she is not allowed in the
country. Therefore, I will go to her instead, or we will meet in Canada or
some other country we are both allowed in. That is quite inconvenient."

~~~
peterwwillis
They literally aren't prisoners in China, they just can't leave the country.
They're free to do as they please in-country. You could easily say that's just
an inconvenience too. But that means some people can't go back to their lives
in the US, just like some people blocked by the US travel ban can't continue
their lives as before. There are multiple ways that both exit and entry bans
affect people in significant ways, and both for political reasons.

~~~
umvi
> They literally aren't prisoners in China, they just can't leave the country.

So it's just an exceptionally big prison, but it's still a prison. And once
you run out of money, what are you supposed to do? Beg on the streets?

