
Fruit Walls: Urban Farming in the 1600s (2015) - ciconia
https://solar.lowtechmagazine.com/2015/12/fruit-walls-urban-farming.html
======
madaxe_again
This ties to something I was thinking about yesterday, while wandering around
neck deep in brambles with a brush-cutter.

We live in a steep sided river valley in northern Portugal, and the place came
with 5 Ha of woodland, on a SE facing slope.

We’ve only lived here some six months, and we’ve gradually realised that
almost every square inch of the hillside has been terraced - the process is to
build hefty walls along the contours, and then let the hill slump into the
gap, making a level growing area.

The thought that occurred to me/thing I noticed was just how much IR the wall
I was working next to was emitting after the sun went down - felt like a patio
heater pointed towards my face from a few meters away. I then realised that
the reason that they’re all so incredibly overgrown is likely the combination
of thermal mass warming the surrounding area, water being forced to ground
level at the foot of each wall, and accumulated mulch being trapped by each
wall.

I can’t count the number of times since starting here that I’ve marvelled at
the simple ingenuity applied towards working with nature, from the terraces
creating a _better_ growing environment than the now-farmed planes above us,
to the positioning and orientation of the mill - it’s situated at the one
point along the bank that gets sunlight all day, all year, apart from two
weeks in midwinter - which just happens to coincide with an outcrop that they
co-opted into a weir.

Anyway. I wonder to what extent the idea of a fruit wall stemmed from people
seeing this sort of terracing, and deciding to do it without a hill.

~~~
omilu
What are the terraces made of? Landscaping blocks? Wood? Rock? I have a nice
south facing hill that i would like to terrace but don't know what to use for
the walls of the terrace.

~~~
jacquesm
[https://youshouldgohere.s3.us-east-2.amazonaws.com/wp-
conten...](https://youshouldgohere.s3.us-east-2.amazonaws.com/wp-
content/uploads/2016/09/Version-2-6.jpg)

~~~
toddh
That's so beautiful!

------
m-i-l
This is mostly about the heat absorption properties of walls. Another property
of walls, which they do allude to, is the protection from wind, which can be
even more important in more hostile environments. When wind hits a wall (or
obstacle) there is a period of space behind the wall where the shelter is
actually higher than the wall. I think this is called the Law of the wall[0]
in fluid dynamics. If you place your fruit trees the optimal distance from the
wall you can provide maximum shelter, and if you place the 2nd tree an optimal
distance from the 1st tree then the 1st can shelter the 2nd, and so on. My
parents were able to use this theory to grow some of the only fruit trees on a
windswept island notable for its almost complete lack of any sort of trees.

So while a walled garden has something of a negative connotation in
technology, in horticulture it seems much more positive. Interestingly,
looking at the definition of walled garden on wikipedia "A walled garden is a
garden enclosed by high walls for horticultural _rather than security
purposes_ "[1] (emphasis mine).

[0]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_the_wall](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_the_wall)

[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walled_garden](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walled_garden)

------
prennert
In the linked article about passive glasshouses here
[https://solar.lowtechmagazine.com/2015/12/reinventing-the-
gr...](https://solar.lowtechmagazine.com/2015/12/reinventing-the-
greenhouse.html)

It says:

"Another issue with a solar powered greenhouse is the lack of a CO2-source. In
modern greenhouses, operators aim to have a CO2-level at least three times the
level outdoors to increase crop yield. This CO2 is produced as a byproduct of
the fossil fuel based heating systems inside the greenhouses. However, when no
fossil fuels are used, another source of CO2 has to be found. This is not only
an issue for solar greenhouses. It’s also one of the main reasons why
geothermal energy and electric heat pumps are not advancing in the modern
glasshouse industry."

~~~
elric
I'm sure I remember reading about some kind of solar setup that used part of
the electricity generated to extract CO2 from the air and feed it into a
greenhouse. Seems to be hard to google for, given that CO2 and greenhouse
automagically translate to climate change, instead of actual greenhouses.

------
tmilard
I live in Paris in I have been very aware of the old peach and raisin we used
to have from neighborhood villages in East suburbs ( Montreuil is touching
périphérique so just an arm away from Paris). It was the 19th century. wethear
could be cold like minus 8 for a few days in winter so yes thick wall
protected them also from extreme cold winter waves.

But do not forget that,at that time, Parisian did not often eat peach or
raisin.

I am quite sceptical that indoor farming or other (re)new trendy technique
could ever produce mass market fruit we are used to have.

~~~
gdubs
In-season, local fruit, is a million times better anyway. We’ve traded taste
for shelf-appearance and the ability for fruit to travel from New Zealand to
California. If people really want strawberries in January (and as a parent of
young picky eaters, believe me I understand) they’ll just have to pay a carbon
tax on it.

------
dang
A thread from 2016:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10921901](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10921901)

A bit from 2015:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10788619](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10788619)

------
oever
The server seems to be holding up fine to all the traffic even though it is a
solar powered Olimex A20.

[https://solar.lowtechmagazine.com/2018/09/how-to-build-a-
low...](https://solar.lowtechmagazine.com/2018/09/how-to-build-a-lowtech-
website.html)

------
jotm
Fun. I've grown, uh, certain plants. Everyone said you should do it indoors,
in a controlled environment. But with the availability of sun I have it makes
little sense to waste so much energy on growing them indoors.

Last year I had 6 plants grow perfectly happy outdoors, and these were from
seeds of plants bred indoors for probably generations. The last plant was
ready in freaking November.

Some of them cross pollinated (yeah, if you buy "feminised", that's not a
guarantee lol), and now I have a few hundred new seeds that I plan on growing
outdoors come May. Should be fun.

On that note, everyone around here has a small garden, mostly staple
vegetables and fruits. But the soil is perfect for anything. And yet I see
people growing stuff in controlled greenhouses even in the summer. Wasteful,
if you ask me.

------
ThePhysicist
In Germany this is called "Spalierobst" and is still widely practiced. As far
as I know certain fruits like apples are also produced on plantations with
trees that are forced into specific shapes for easier harvesting.

~~~
blimey74
Yes, I've also seen it done in apartment buildings in the heart of Copenhagen,
with tomatoes, grapes and avocados.

~~~
gnome6667
Avocado trees grow and fruit in Copenhagen?!?

------
jacquesm
Plenty of old manors will have these. Here is an example from NL (near Velsen-
Zuid in Noord Holland):

[https://www.google.com/maps/@52.4618655,4.6455238,3a,48.9y,1...](https://www.google.com/maps/@52.4618655,4.6455238,3a,48.9y,18.19h,83.12t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sjOTSIotI3X2pxjpuGR0r5w!2e0!6s%2F%2Fgeo0.ggpht.com%2Fcbk%3Fpanoid%3DjOTSIotI3X2pxjpuGR0r5w%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D115.556885%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192)

The fruit trees are long gone but the wall still stands.

------
walshemj
Interesting in the UK I live in a house that is in the courtyard of a
16th/17th century farm house (John Bunyan Preached there)

Until a few weeks ago there was an old pear tree trained against one wall -
presumably to take advantage of the effect.

------
winrid
I'd love to live next to something like this. Could you imagine walking
through that? It'd put Filoli to shame. :)

Also, notice how the walls are not in a grid formation. Maybe I missed that
when skimming through, but I imagine that's for a reason?

~~~
pengaru
The broad side needs to face the sun for optimal thermal gain, so they all end
up ~parallel to one another, and ~perpendicular to the sun's rays.

------
lostlogin
Great article. Query though, it says “Protruding roof tiles or wooden canopies
often shielded the fruit trees from rain, hail and bird droppings“ I get most
of that but are bird droppings really a problem?

~~~
jamiek88
In the city, yes. Think pigeon shit rather than sparrow droppings. Cleaning
the fruit would be labour intensive and if not done lead to spoilage.

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zokier
If the greenhouses are built wall-to-wall like pictured in the article, the
thermal losses through the walls should be minimal? Only the outermost
perimeter would need any insulation

~~~
drewm1980
It is about thermal mass and staying above a minimum temperature. An infinite
greenhouse has a better insulated roof (compared to no roof) but lower thermal
mass.

~~~
the8472
You could add some water tanks for thermal mass.

------
thomasfl
They have fruit walls in the George Washington museum at mont vernon in
Virgina. At first I just thought is was for adorning the garden, but it is
very practical too.

------
JumpCrisscross
“ This website runs on a solar powered server located in Barcelona, and will
go off-line during longer periods of bad weather. This page shows live data
relating to power supply, power demand, and energy storage.”

Neat!

[https://solar.lowtechmagazine.com/power.html](https://solar.lowtechmagazine.com/power.html)

~~~
dang
Lots of threads, if anyone's curious for more. A few weeks ago:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22184052](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22184052)

8 months ago:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20038619](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20038619)

11 months ago:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19407847](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19407847)

2018:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18075143](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18075143)

~~~
gdubs
Thanks, both — I had seen this shared in the past but finally clicked through.
Pretty neat site, beyond even just the solar-powered website factor.

------
animalnewbie
Does anyone have a handy 20 minute guide to getting started with balcony
farming for apartments?

1) sunlight requirements, different for plants

2) soil and replacement.

3) water, frequency and outlet.

What are some other things to care about? Where do I get soil? Is it okay to
dig from an existing farmland? I live quarter mile from a river. Should I
collect from river bank?

~~~
jsilence
The limited area you have at your disposal will not be able to actualy feed
you. With intensive farming one would need around 200 - 500 m² to produce the
calories required.

So with balcony farming I'd recommend focussing on greens that make your meals
better. Microgreens are easy to do and add a lot of flavor to your salads and
meals. For the rest herbs and leafy greens are the way to go. Herbs as
perennials can be grown in soil pots. The plants in pots you can get in the
supermarket usually do not last long. They are produced for maximum harvest
yield at market time and usually have a hard time when trying to keep them.
Get some heirloom seeds or cuttings and make soil from coco coir and perlite.
For leafy greens hydroponics can make sense. Jeb the gardener on YT is funny
and informative. It is easier to automate hydroponics than soil culture. Chili
Chump on YT has a good series on that.

Consider running a bokashi indoor compost. The liquid collected from that is
excellent organic fertilizer for the coco coir and the hydroponics.

Start small. Scale up as you gain more experience. Microgreens have a 10 - 14
day culture, so starting with those will give you a fast turnover and quick
iterations for improvement. Try to purchase seeds in bulk, otherwise cost will
be prohibitive. Organic seeds for commercial growers come in larger quantities
at a reasonable price. Try to source those.

Most important of all: Have fun!

edit: fixed typo.

~~~
supermatt
Maybe you mean square feet instead of square metres?

Less than 50 sq m (approx 500 sq ft) per person using conventional row
gardening would be the norm - and with intensive gardening, that same plot
could support a 4-person family.

~~~
NoOneNew
Yea, but there's one problem I have with this estimate. It requires near
perfect efficiency. There's almost no buffer here for poor crop yields, less
than ideal climate conditions, weeds overtaking, pest destruction, wrong breed
of crop for conditions, soil/hydroponic management, etc. For 500 sq ft to be
viable for 4 people, it needs to be taken care of in a very regiment fashion.

Not saying it's impossible. But that number shouldn't be advised for beginner
homesteaders or people with less than ideal time to spend on the garden. It's
great if at least one person out of four can devote a good amount of their
time everyday to it and are already well experienced (hands on experience, not
just internet articles) in horticulture.

Plus, you generally want plenty extra to harvest so you can jar, can, preserve
however you want. That way in case you do happen to have a bad next yield, you
still have something. Don't forget about seed-saving too. Most plants you have
to sacrifice from eating to some capacity so you can plant again next season.
Let's not forget the compost pile too to help re-fertilize soil and some rest
time for the soil if you can't properly maintain it.

Oh and back on climate. Here in Florida, yea, I could probably figure it out
with 500 sq ft. I have like a 10 month growing season here. Easy. Throw up a
greenhouse with a heater that only needs to be ran maybe 10 days out of the
year, at most, then I have 12 months. I can compost small piles fast all year
round. It's near perfect here. Michigan? Ha! I know there are certain types of
greenhouse designs that extend the growing seasons in places like Alaska to a
certain extent and somewhat efficiently. But that's a lot more effort and work
that most people aren't willing to do.

Long way of me just saying, that 500 sq ft for 4 people year round needs a
heavy asterisk of "Under ideal and perfect conditions".

But my rant also requires an asterisk. I'm not saying that if you can't grow
all your food, then don't grow anything. I think everyone should grow at least
some of their own food in a manner that fits their wants, conditions and
lifestyle. Just... have realistic expectations. I hate to see people have
unrealistic expectations with gardening and be disappointed. Misses the point
to the whole venture. There are downsides too. As a kid we grew our own
tomatoes for fun. Nothing serious or wide scale. Like 10 plants a year.
Problem with that (besides caterpillars), I absolutely hate most store bought
tomatoes, even 20 years later. I have to have organic farmer's market grown or
my own. Anything conventional store bought is just red-dyed, solidified water.

~~~
supermatt
Oh yeah, no doubt. That 500 sq ft would be for 1 under normal circumstances,
and would need to be heavily optimised for supporting 4 people.

As it stands US Department of Agriculture says that 120 sq m is enough for a
family of 3 - thats using conventional gardening techniques.

~~~
asdkjh345
The USDA recommendation is just to provide the small amount of vegetables a
family normally eats, not to provide all their calories. 50 sq m is absolutely
tiny, and even with the most calorically dense crops like a 300 bushel/acre
corn crop, that 50 sq m is producing less than 1000 calories a day, it won't
support anyone.

------
aaron695
Part of our decadent past.

You are basically stealing sunlight from x% of the land to somewhat improve
the 1-x%

The in-efficiencies of the past are quite beautiful.

~~~
rhn_mk1
Think of it in another way: you divert light to the land that benefits from it
the most.

------
unnouinceput
With today's pollution this is no longer healthy. Fruits will absorb
pollutants and the acid rains will stick to their skin slowly penetrate as
well. That's why we have currently trees that are very resilient against
cities harsh conditions, like Linden Birch Beech and Poplar (Populus).

~~~
jefflombardjr
Where is this coming from? There are certainly things you can do to grow fruit
in the city or at least reduce the effect pollutants have. I've seen so many
figs that thrive in cities.

i.e.
[https://academic.oup.com/bioscience/article/67/9/868/4080176](https://academic.oup.com/bioscience/article/67/9/868/4080176)

Check out permaculture, it's entirely possible.

~~~
unnouinceput
Your health, please consume fruits from trees in polluted cities. I prefer not
to.

