
People are ‘ghosting’ at work, and it's driving recruiters crazy - dawhizkid
https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/people-ghosting-work-its-driving-companies-crazy-chip-cutter/
======
avmich
I think I can almost write a table-turned story.

"Bill Right, a software engineer, found a company he'd really like to work
for. Good recommendations on Glassdoor, great name recognition... After
applying and a couple of phone calls he got an interview, which went really
well. Then suddenly company turned silent. Emails to hiring manager
unanswered, phone calls to the recruiter switched to the answering machine...
The company ghosted the applicant.

Across the whole industry engineers say lackluster market lead to companies
stopping communicating with candidates - the practice more associated with
rudeness and social ignorance than multi-million dollar companies. It prolongs
job search, forcing hopefuls talking with multiple companies at once, as they
feel constant significant pressure..."

~~~
mmt
The article is at least more balanced (and also refers to more than just the
recruiting process) than the introduction.

FTA:

> He added: “The employers have been far worse about this than any of the job
> seekers.”

~~~
thisisit
So basically after years of pulling this with employees, employers are now
getting the same treatment.

I also have been ghosted couple of times by prospective employers. Only after
they have someone on their payrolls that they will come back with an answer.

~~~
foobarchu
I think the problem here is that this has negative consequences for job
seekers. As mentioned in the article, companies have started overbooking
interviews, which can only end in tears.

------
pmlnr
I had to do this recruiters myself, because even after explicitly telling them
I'm not interested in the position any more, they kept calling/texting me.

On another occasion I told the recruiter I'm not actively looking, but I'll
hear them out, with one condition: not during 9-5, because I'm in my current
office. I got 5 calls from them in 2 days, of course between 9-5.

Recruiters: there are 2 type of people out there. One has a current position
and you're after them; the other doesn't have a current job and they're after
you. You need to treat them differently.

~~~
avmich
> You need to treat them differently.

Really? Why?

~~~
mathattack
If someone has a job, as the recruiter you have to be more respectful of
asking for time out of their day. They may not want to talk ad-how in the
middle of the day, and have lots of work commitments to work around. You can’t
just ask them to show up on short notice. Someone without a job is thrilled to
interview somewhere in short noticed and is happy to field calls in the middle
of the day.

~~~
avmich
> you have to be more respectful of asking for time out of their day

You have to be respectful always, right? Not only when you have a leverage?

> You can’t just ask them to show up on short notice.

Someone without job can have other things to worry about. You can always ask,
of course, but you shouldn't just assume and proceed from that.

~~~
mathattack
Yes respectful always. Just that it means different things for different
people. The are calls and requests that may thrill the unemployed also annoy
the employed.

------
incadenza
Listen I think it’s important to keep people in the loop and I always do. It’s
common courtesy. But after having experienced this as a job seeker countless
times it’s hard for me to have sympathy with these companies now that the
power dynamics have shifted a bit in favor of employees. Behaviors like this
are learned.

~~~
TAForObvReasons
The article actually acknowledges this:

> Where once it was companies ignoring job applicants or snubbing candidates
> after interviews, the world has flipped.

A few years ago the article would have been "Companies are ghosting people and
driving them crazy". It would seem, on the surface, that if companies ghosting
candidates is acceptable and "professional" then candidates ghosting companies
is acceptable and "professional"

~~~
polotics
Yeah. Never ever seen any article about that other direction in contempt.

------
olivermarks
'...candidates — scarred from years of applying for jobs, spending hours
preparing for interviews, only to get form rejections back — may not be to
blame for going cold, said Peter Cappelli, a management professor and director
of Wharton's Center for Human Resources. “I think they have learned it from
the employers,” he said. “Employers were notorious for never getting back to
people, and only letting them know what was going on if it turned out they
wanted them to go to the next step. He added: “The employers have been far
worse about this than any of the job seekers.”

~ I wonder if that is the root cause? It seems possible this is another
example of internet era behavioral changes, where people are far more casual
about applying for jobs and have less respect for formal perceptions of job
application than in the past...

As a people manager this only happened to me once, when an engineer was a no
show. It was quite a shocker after all the effort that went into bringing them
into the big corp I was at back then...

~~~
zzzcpan
People are more casual about applying for jobs because they get treated this
way by employers. Playing on a job market they learn from them that this is an
acceptable behavior.

But why are employers ghosting candidates so much lately? Are there too many
people on the market to choose from and they just can't answer? Or maybe they
learn this from some large trend-setting corporation that secretly wants to
put down candidates to make them more corporate drony, but publicly justifies
such policy as legal risk or something. I have a feeling this is where it
starts.

~~~
ropeadopepope
There's this perception in the corporate world that telling a candidate why
they were rejected opens up the company to a potential lawsuit. I have no idea
if there's any truth to that statement or if it's just a convenient excuse
that gets repeated.

~~~
mattkrause
I would happily sign a waiver for some feedback.

That said, I would bet that a lot of decisions, especially among "finalists"
are essentially random (who seems smarter/better put together/whatever).

You're not going to get someone saying "well, you took 10.3 minutes to sketch
out a solution to our first problem, which was too long. We would have hired
you if you finished in under 9 and half minutes though."

------
oldcynic
Well I sincerely hope this trend catches on. It's about time.

Throughout my career recruiters are active about contact for two reasons only:
To chase you for leads and contacts in your current place (sometimes so
blatantly that the moment you put the phone down they're calling someone else
in the same office and you get strong déjà vu), or when you're #1 chance - so
please accept this (role|interview|phone interview). Rest of the time it's
like they cease to exist so you never get answer to your question, or find out
feedback of an interview.

There were a _tiny_ minority who treated candidates as professional people.

~~~
ebikelaw
I vividly remember an incident in 1999 when I was sitting in an open plan
office of about thirty programmers in San Francisco and a recruiter war-dialed
every phone in the company in numerical order, which also happened to describe
a space-filling curve throughout the office. As a joke, we had the same guy
answer the last half dozen calls.

------
pimmen
I graduated high school in 2008 and wanted to work before continuing with my
academic career, and I was absolutely astonished by how many employers don't
keep you in the loop as an applicant. That being the Recession, I now
understand that the vast number of applicants for few positions gave the
companies the luxury to not really care about how their communication worked.
More applicants would come knocking next month anyway.

So, while I sympathize with these employers I can understand why my generation
has started behaving this way because this behavior was among the first we
experienced in the business world. This trend of ghosting employers highlights
that no one "side" can dictate the culture of business, we need to live up to
the standards we hold others to or we will not be given respect back.

The casualties of this development are businesses that did go through the
pains to keep their applicants informed about the process who are now
suffering for other businesses' stupid decisions. The business who is
experiencing ghosting after having treated applicants the same way, however?
Please, acknowledge what you've done and ask what you can do yourself to fix
this mess you've contributed to.

~~~
sonabinu
One of the hardest experiences for a job seeker is getting no feedback from a
potential employer after an onsite. This has happened to me a few times when I
was seeking opportunities after grad school. It is interesting to see how
times have changed.

------
BIackSwan
This is very typical in India in almost every interaction. People ghost all
the time, including but not limited to business deals, interviews, any kind of
appointments etc.

There is an entire system developed which handles these kind of situations.
Its a cultural thing here where saying a “no” outright is considered bad
behaviour and offensive. One simply stops responding and that is how the other
party knows that they are no longer interested.

Interestingly, it also “leaves the door open” if/when the party saying no by
being silent changes their mind. They simply make up a BS but a reasonable
explanation to pick up the process where it was left off.

~~~
twiss
I think leaving the door open, or at least hoping to leave the door open, is a
big reason why people ghost in this case as well. From the article:

> The engineer who ghosted ultimately did get back to her — six weeks after
> her call — to say she had accepted another job at her current employer.

In other words, only after she was sure of another job did she turn down the
original one.

------
aoent4ntor0
Google did this to me about 8-9 years ago. I interviewed, it went very well,
then nothing for weeks. I called the recruiter, got the runaround, finally
talked to someone who tells me, "Oh I called and left a message letting you
know we weren't interested." No, they didn't. I have voicemail just like
everyone else. No missed calls, no missed messages. But it turned out for the
best, so no worries. Needless to say, the 90 or so times since then that
they've contacted me to come in for more interviews, I've simply ignored them.

------
dahdum
Having some friends who recently went through tech hiring recently, some of
these companies are still waiting 1-2 weeks after passing the last interview
before extending an offer.

Both of them joined companies that ran through the whole interview cycle
within 1 week, and started just days later.

If you’ve already been at a new company for a week, it’s pretty easy (though a
little rude) to ignore the recruiter trying to schedule a call still days out
to extend an offer.

~~~
mmt
I'd say it's particularly rude not to respond promptly (or even notify them in
advance), if the slower recruiter/company had initially correctly set the
timeline expectations.

It's one thing if they say "you're the first candidate we spoke to, so we'll
need a couple weeks before we get back to you with a decision" and another if
they say "we'll let you know in a few days" (or set no expectation at all)..
and then say nothing until 2 weeks later.

In the latter case, a reasonable candidate would assume a tacit rejection, as
has been common in the industry, and could be forgiven for forgetting about
that company entirely, even a week later.

------
CryoLogic
The article talks about a recruiter who will have candidates not respond to
her...

I am sure most of us US based tech talent have had dozens or hundreds perhaps
even more recruiters gather some info on them and than ghost them.

I think recruiters are the master ghosters here.

~~~
lucb1e
I don't think a recruiter ever ghosted me. Companies that I've emailed, yes,
but not a recruiter who gets paid for getting me a job.

I've stopped responding to many recruiters because there are just so many of
them. I used to not understand what people were talking about and thought they
were being pricks for complaining about being so wanted, but now that I've
almost finished university at a well known study, it would take an annoying
amount of time to politely say no to each of them (I feel obliged to say why
when saying I don't want to talk to them). Many contact me even though it's
clear I'm not going to be interested if they had read my profile. Well, sorry,
but then I can't be arsed.

~~~
alacombe
> Companies that I've emailed, yes, but not a recruiter who gets paid for
> getting me a job.

We're not talking about freelance recruiters here, we're talking about HR foot
soldiers.

~~~
ropeadopepope
I've had freelance recruiters ghost me. It makes me wonder if it was more
convenient for them or if they were themselves ghosted by the company they
applied me to.

------
mattkrause
I want to give IBM—of all places—a shout-out here.

I applied for a few jobs there after grad school. Every application was
promptly followed up. Hiring managers and HR folks replied to emails, often
within the same day. I was notified when the jobs were closed, and one hiring
manager even scheduled a brief phone call to explain why they weren't hiring
me and what I should do if I wanted to reapply.

------
ChuckMcM
_" Still, HR teams are bemoaning the emotional rollercoaster they’ve suddenly
found themselves on, dealing with the kind of “what just happened?” situations
once reserved to those on the dating circuit."_

Kind of hard to feel sorry for them since so many have operated this way to
employees for years. That said, I always recommend to people that they stay
courteous to the recruiter folks. There may come a time when you really need
there help and like it says elsewhere in the article they have very long
memories.

It costs nothing to just let someone know you've gone a different way.

------
forinti
The only time I recall getting a rejection letter was from a UN agency. I
thought it was very considerate of them and actually kept the letter for a
long time. The one time I gave feedback to a company turning them down, they
blacklisted me because they thought I was snobbing them.

~~~
mattkrause
I applied for a ton of jobs after finishing grad school. I dug up the
spreadsheet and, nearly five years later, I still haven't heard from > 50
percent of them.

It's understandable that companies don't put effort into candidates that got
screened out automatically or by HR (though really, how much work would a form
email be). However, a few of these places spent literally thousands of dollars
(transcontinental flight, hotel, rental car, plus a day worth of interviews).
A short email afterward really seems like the least they could do!

------
jlarocco
I have to admit I find this trend amusing because I've experienced companies
doing it to me, but I'm also baffled why somebody would do it. Why go out of
the way to put strikes against yourself in a future job search? What happens
when that recruiter moves to a company you really do want to work for?

On a side note, I'm about to take a year off of work to go skiing and do some
long distance bike touring, so it's great to hear the job market is doing so
well.

------
tarboreus
This is the world these companies have created. They show no loyalty to
employees, rarely train people or pass on professional norms, and rarely reach
out when they drop employees at different stages of a search. I wouldn't ghost
a recruiter for various reasons, but I hardly feel like recruiters or
companies much deserve the respect they seem to think they deserve in this
article. The shoe is on the other foot.

------
jiveturkey
typical poorly written article, as i would expect from LI.

but, it did make me very happy. good on the ghosters! i know now how i will
treat declined job offers. i'll accept and not show up!! lol i'm way too happy
about this. j/k i could never bring myself to do that. it's a nice thought
though.

about TFA itself, it is so contradictory. from: this is now endemic, to: a
recruiter doesn't need a list because the number of folks doing this is so
small they can be kept in her head. it's pure stream of thought, here's a
point i want to make ... oh ok i can't make it who cares i'll now make the
counterpoint. this would receive a 'D' grade as a high school essay.

Furthermore, LI's customers are companies. Do they not have any self-awareness
at all? This article is going to promote the practice of candidate ghosting.
lol.

------
greggarious
I have zero sympathy. I have had multiple potential jobs end with a "ghosting"
over the years.

Not only did I accept this, I didn't _dare_ express any annoyance at this
treatment - we all know that a potential hire who chewed out a recruiter for
offering a fly out then going silent would at best be blacklisted internally,
if not passed around via a whisper network as "difficult".

Sites like Glassdoor are useful, but it's relatively easy to identify someone
who posts on a site like that if you give enough detail to be useful to other
potential employees so prudent candidates opt not to utilize "anonymous"
review sites either.

------
markbnj
I'm very sympathetic to the idea that employers started this crap, and are
basically getting a taste of their own medicine. That said, I will ignore spam
from recruiters I have no conversation with, or if the recruiter shows signs
of actually having read my resume and contacted me deliberately I will
politely reply that I am not in the market, but I cannot imagine "ghosting" a
recruiter or company that I have an ongoing conversation with, although some
have done that to me. I try to treat people professionally, and in the way I
would wish to be treated.

------
justboxing
> Instead of formally quitting, enduring a potentially awkward conversation
> with a manager, some employees leave and never return. Bosses realize
> they’ve quit only after a series of unsuccessful attempts to reach them. The
> hiring process begins anew.

I don't understand how you can do this without knowing that you are leaving
money on the table by "ghosting" from a job you are already working in.

I would think this happens only in blue-collar jobs / min-wage jobs like a
flipper at burger king but the article mentions in a previous page that

> In fields ranging from food service to finance...

If you were working in Finance (or even Tech) and suddenly don't show up, and
your manager realizes that you've quit after being unable to reach you, how
will you (the "ghoster") determine what your last day was, and get paid until
then? The Boss can simply tell HR / Payroll "I don't remember when he/she
disappeared, so not sure for how many days we need to pay him/her".

In this case, you are potentially losing out on a few 100 to may be a 1000 or
2000 $ by not properly quitting and indicating your last day.

------
joezydeco
The US unemployment rate is at or near the practical minimum, yet wages are
still stagnant. Something needs to give soon and it's not going to be the
unemployment rate.

(Although, more than likely, we're about to be thrown into another recession
thanks to ill-timed tax cuts, so maybe all of this is moot).

------
AndrewKemendo
Maybe I'm just old fashioned, but I feel like it's common courtesy to respond
to any genuine communication irrespective of who it's from.

I get TONS of email from people I don't know and almost without fail I will
respond, even if it's just two words "no thanks."

~~~
aoent4ntor0
What constitutes "genuine communication"? I've had on my LinkedIn profile:
"Recruiters, please don't contact me at this time as I am not currently
interested in changing jobs," and they _still_ contact me. WTF?

~~~
AnimalMuppet
Not every recruiter finds you via LinkedIn. Sometimes they call someone else,
ask them if they know anyone who might be interested, and that person gives
them your name. Maybe they say something like "I don't know if aoent4ntor0 is
looking right now, but you might give them a try." So _of course_ the
recruiter gives you a try. They're not going to track down your LinkedIn
profile to see if it says not to call you...

------
bowlich
Hell, I've had and have heard of service-industry level jobs doing this to
people for years.

One of my first jobs was as a waiter. Showed up one day to check the schedule
and couldn't find my name on any of the shifts. Management never told anyone
that they were cutting staff, they would just stop schedule you and you were
just supposed take the hint and move on. When I confronted them on it they
were surprised that I hadn't just "gotten the hint."

And the practice must be rather wide spread. I've heard similar stories, even
from corporate chains, were workers are just laid off not by a discussion with
their manager but by just not being scheduled.

So I can hardly find employees doing unsympathetic.

------
mathattack
I always return recruiter calls if I’m mid process. Careers are long games.
You don’t know when you bump into people again.

Companies have peed in the water enough to make people not return calls.
Probably 50% of the companies I’ve interviewed with ghosted me. I’ve had
companies take me to the final round, promise an offer, and then say “the
position wasn’t funded”. Anyone on LinkedIn has had to deal with unscrupulous
headhunters. In aggregate companies and their reps started acting poorly.
People return the favor and it’s not a surprise.

The one caveat is backing out of a signed offer is rough and should be handled
with grace. Just not showing up isn’t graceful.

------
urlwolf
I've heard this happening in Singapore: the job market is so strong that you
get people signing a contract and never showing up. I really wonder if they
understand how mega-connected everyone is in this day and age, and how easily
the burned entrepreneur can broadcast their name in their social network and
make them radioactive to ... her friends, who are likely potential employers.

~~~
jiveturkey
I can't understand why you are downvoted, except maybe that your argument is
as self-contradictory as TFA.

which is it, the job market is so strong that candidates have all the cards,
or the job market is tight and candidates can't afford to burn leads and get
easily blacklisted?

btw, can you comment on singapore's privacy laws? such broadcasting would be
illegal in eu.

------
loa-in-backup
>"Where once it was companies ignoring job applicants or snubbing candidates
after interviews, the world has flipped. Candidates agree to job interviews
and fail to show up, never saying more. Some accept jobs, only to not appear
for the first day of work, no reason given, of course."

Author makes it sound like both described phenomena are already of comparable
rate of occurrence.

------
drivingmenuts
Ghosting isn’t the right term if you haven’t started the interview process.
Simply not responding to a job listing is just that.

It seems like many posters are conflating that with failure to respond after a
job offer.

------
amriksohata
Funny when the boot is on the other foot

------
tw1010
"If you do need to drop out of the process, say so."

Poor companies, candidates ghosting them. Hm, hey, don't companies stop
responding to candidates all the time, or give little to no feedback about why
they chose to reject someone. I wonder if they're somehow connected. Nah,
impossible.

~~~
phyzome
On the one hand, it's abysmally unprofessional, and can give you a bad
reputation.

On the other hand... at least both sides are being equally unprofessional now?
-.-

~~~
alacombe
Tit for tat, companies ghosting candidates don't give a good image to the
candidate either.

------
phyzome
Incorrect title, can we get that changed? It's mostly about recruiters, with
only a tiny mention of employers.

~~~
delecti
HN posts tend to prefer the original article's title they're clickbait.

~~~
phyzome
Doesn't matter to me whether it's clickbait or just confusing -- if it's not
what I thought it was when I go to click, it's just irritating.

------
paulsutter
Clickbait title, correction: People are ghosting RECRUITERS and driving
RECRUITERS crazy.

Which is neither surprising nor interesting.

~~~
lucb1e
That's not what clickbait is. Your title might be better, but people have been
writing somewhat sensational headlines since the dawn of time. Clickbait would
have been "This one trick drives recruiters crazy!"

~~~
paulsutter
No it’s clickbait. The title suggests that people are simply not showing up
for work, in some new trend. It baits us into clicking as we expect an
interesting story, only to see a fluff piece by a sad recruiter who has no
idea that he’s just an annoyance.

------
trhway
sounds like a whining by HR teams who failed to adjust to the paradigm shift.

