
Complex view of Islam found in poetry of Iran, Stanford researcher shows - benbreen
http://news.stanford.edu/2016/07/18/complex-view-islam-found-poetry-iran/review/
======
known
"Earth is flat" \--Religion;

Religion was born when first con-man met the first fool;

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estefan
and this is on HN because...?

~~~
dang
Because it's intellectually interesting.

It's sad that a rational discussion of something so interesting is impossible
here, but that's different from the story not belonging on HN.

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guard-of-terra
That's to be expected that difference between "actual historic Islam" and
"whatever fundamendalists now push as the only true thing" will be akin to
this:

[https://pp.vk.me/c635106/v635106753/217e/XWciycs1P1c.jpg](https://pp.vk.me/c635106/v635106753/217e/XWciycs1P1c.jpg)

Also, fundamentalists just invented most of things they sell as eternal.

~~~
acqq
The images you link to aren't accurate. At least for any country with Bedouin
women and Muslim control, these women wore this even hundreds a years ago:

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niq%C4%81b_in_Egypt#/media/Fil...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niq%C4%81b_in_Egypt#/media/File:Ladies_attired_for_Riding_or_Walking._\(1836\)_-_TIMEA.jpg)

Some other peoples in the same countries of course wore less "fundamental"
clothing.

Still your picture with a woman without the head covering and with the skin
showing in Bosnia is 100% anachronistic (recent, somebody shot a waitress
dressed as a tourist attraction in just some part of the old clothes,
according to the Wikipedia page) and surely not "traditional." This is how it
looked like traditionally:

[http://l7.alamy.com/zooms/8913992104084b29887dc4ab7fa2fd0b/b...](http://l7.alamy.com/zooms/8913992104084b29887dc4ab7fa2fd0b/bosnian-
women-in-traditional-costume-drc82g.jpg)

They still look much nicer than the "modern ninjas."

~~~
benbreen
My wife's Iranian and she took issue with that meme as well, saying the
"traditional" outfit wasn't accurate, in the case of Iran at least. But I wish
someone would make a version of it based on actual historical primary sources,
because there really is a striking difference in dress codes when you go back
before the 19th century. Google "eighteenth century iranian women" and you'll
see very clearly what I mean:

[https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/96/Hasht-
Be...](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/96/Hasht-
Behesht_Palace_santur.jpg)

There's no arguing that these are depictions of Muslim women by Muslim
painters, so it's a bit simplistic to act as if Islam has always imposed the
same interpretation of what "modest dress" means. Anyway, I'm not trying to
wade into this larger debate but just wanted to point out that we don't need
to speculate about what the traditional dress was like in regions like the
Persian or Ottoman empires, there are abundant historical images that show us.

~~~
acqq
I agree fully. Women elsewhere surely wore much more colorful dresses than the
Bedouins. At least the younger ones, the black color was at least in some
cultures common as the "mourning" color.

Having women wearing black in the areas where the Sun could kill them while
men at the same time wear white was surely practical for Bedouins restricting
their movement and making them any kind of the "escape" riskier. Luckily,
Persia was something else, thanks to its history.

Kindly allow me to be very subjective, to my eyes, Iranian women are beautiful
above average (the ones I've met didn't wear headscarves). I do understand the
people becoming poets in their presence.

As you are the OP, any chance of obtaining access to the other poems mentioned
in the article? Any affiliation?

------
acqq
"They are against established religion, they are against established
religiosity, against political Islam, against teaching Islam and against the
seminary"

Still we get no proofs for that in the article. The quoted poem just uses
"wine" but it's not anything "against."

And the fact that Khomeini at some point in his life (maybe as he was young
and at the times Iranian women were still allowed to wear miniskirts and it
was considered normal (1)) wrote some poetry different from his own
fundamentalist actions doesn't make automatically "a complex view of Islam."
It just proves that no person is one-dimensional. And these that even at just
one point in their lives start to understand their religion as "completely
true" are exactly those that start to be obsessed with their own sins in their
own lives up to that point and try to do something to "buy themselves back" to
heaven. With virgins (remember "completely true") included.

1) [https://figandquince.com/2014/01/24/iran-photographs-
vintage...](https://figandquince.com/2014/01/24/iran-photographs-vintage/)
[http://www.carbonated.tv/lifestyle/7-images-of-iran-
before-i...](http://www.carbonated.tv/lifestyle/7-images-of-iran-before-
islamic-revolution)

