

Hey, Bethesda Let’s settle this - Shenglong
http://notch.tumblr.com/post/9038258448/hey-bethesda-lets-settle-this

======
lmkg
This is not without precedent.

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southwest_airlines#.22Just_Plan...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southwest_airlines#.22Just_Plane_Smart.22)

Southwest Airlines was sued by Stevens Aviation over their use of the phrase
"Just Plane Smart" in their advertisements. Herb Kelleher, CEO of Southwest,
offered to settle the dispute by arm-wrestling the CEO of Stevens. He lost the
match, but got rights to the phrase anyways, and both companies got a lot of
good publicity out of the match.

~~~
jeremyarussell
You get a plus for that one. I always like when people provide evidence to
back stuff up.

To me though, how can someone trademark or copyright a single established word
in any language, it just seems ridiculous really.

PS: I hope Bethesda takes him up on the offer.

~~~
IgorPartola
Heh, trademarking a single established word is not even where it stops. _T-
Mobile owns the color magenta!_ [1]. So don't just stop at words. Let's do
letters, colors, etc. And of course as soon as you trademark a color, it
implies that you've trademarked all the individual colors that make it up.
Thus a trademark on the color white (#FFFFFF (c) (tm) Igor Partola, all rights
reserved) would give you all other colors.

[1] [http://sixrevisions.com/web_design/color-the-next-limited-
re...](http://sixrevisions.com/web_design/color-the-next-limited-resource/)

EDIT: Fixed silly color theory mistake.

EDIT2: s/copyright/trademark/g

~~~
rcfox
Black is the absence of colour. White is composed of all other colours.

~~~
yalue
Only in additive color mixing. In subtractive mixing, it's the opposite.

------
patio11
There were a few precedents from the 1980s and 1990s where Japanese firms in a
few industries settled commercial disputes in the $ZOMG region via rock-paper-
scissors. This nearly caused an aneurysm or three in my Japanese economy
class, but the prof explained "It's fair, cheap compared to litigation, and
even if you lose your CEO is not going to want to stab an icepick into the eye
of someone who he is _almost certainly going to have to do business again
with_."

I'm mostly telling this for the "funny anecdote" angle, since without a social
connection (either direct person-to-person or inferred by being a member of
the same fraternity of elite megacorps), the likelihood of a Japanese firm
agreeing to this method of dispute resolution with a firm of Notchs' size is
zero.

------
strmpnk
If only all legal battles could be solved with an old-fashion duel. Even
better, lets make the lawyers fight to the death. Solves both the legal side
and serves as a nice control of the lawyer population...

More seriously, I really hope that the legal system can start setting a
practical standard for intelectual property debates. From patents to
trademarks or even how we handle trade secrets, it's like the information age
has created a new cold-war era in business mentality and it serves no purpose
other than to abuse power.

~~~
gwern
> If only all legal battles could be solved with an old-fashion duel. Even
> better, lets make the lawyers fight to the death. Solves both the legal side
> and serves as a nice control of the lawyer population...

Ironically, the elimination of trial by combat was seen as a great advance,
casting away a practice that was "superstitious and barbarous to the last
degree".

And so the circle is closed.

------
knowtheory
I love this idea, and in a society that prided itself on honor, Bethesda would
take him up on it.

Unfortunately the law does not promote honorable behavior.

~~~
eggbrain
Remember, in Game of Thrones, that Bronn only became Tyrion's champion for the
money, not any sense of honor.

What if Bethesda finds it easier to hire 3 top Quake 3 players for 1k each to
fight Notch and friends? They might find it easier than going through the
lawsuit.

~~~
ConstantineXVI
No need, I'd wager Carmack and friends are plenty good at their own game.

~~~
palish
Hmm? Bethesda didn't make Quake, if that's what you're saying...

~~~
ConstantineXVI
Bethesda bought id in '09, so yes they do.

~~~
palish
Er, okay. That seems unrelated since they never "made Quake" and likely have
little/no influence over Carmack himself.

But oh man: Carmack vs Notch. Imagine it.

Nevermind, I _hope_ Bethesda can somehow persuade/pressure/bribe/extort
Carmack into that. Because... C'mon. Carmack vs Notch.

------
benbeltran
Come on Bethesda. Take the bait. It's great PR. (I'm sure valve would do it)

~~~
dgritsko
Except it's highly doubtful Valve would've sent the C & D in the first place.

~~~
A-K
Considering that they're the guys making "Dota 2", I'm inclined to agree.

~~~
corin_
Well they did hire the creator of Dota to work on it for them, not like
they've stolen the name from him..

~~~
huckfinnaafb
IceFrog isn't strictly the author of DotA. DotA is, if memory serves, based on
an even older mod called Aeon of Strife. And DotA's development history is
riddled with support from the WC3 mapping community so it's really unfair to
name any one individual as a sole creator or rights holder. There really is no
rights holder to the game and there have been at least 3 major releases by
distinct developing groups: Demigod (GPG), LoL and HoN.

~~~
palish
He's not the author, but he's "the face of Dota" at this point.

(Well, he's "the person of Dota", at least. Mr. Ismail is far too reclusive to
ever show his face.)

Unfortunately, it pains me to say this, but this is the truth: If you tried to
commercially release your own DOTA, and if you'd copied skills/heroes/items
from the original game, Valve, or rather Ismail, would sic lawyers on you
immediately. I know this because they tried to do it to S2, the creators of
HoN (a very similar game).

So it's unfortunately not true "There really is no rights holder to the game".
Valve/Icefrog hold all the cards at this point.

~~~
huckfinnaafb
Valve may have creative rights on the details, but I'd be surprised if they
could convince a judge that they own the rights to a whole genre of gaming.
Especially when there's already a plethora of popular games already under it.

~~~
palish
True, however, the details _are_ DOTA. League of Legends isn't DOTA at all,
for example.

It's hard to explain. You could only really understand if you'd played the
game. "DOTA" roughly means "A highly/specifically competitive game, wherein
that game also includes specific heroes and items which competitive players
have spent years practicing with and the community in general have come to
expect". For example both DOTA and HoN have an item which grants you 10
seconds of magic immunity on use, and can't be used again for more than 1
minute. So if your game doesn't, then it's probably not "a DOTA".

HoN and DOTA both share about ~75% of the "details" (and almost 100% of the
details that matter) so it's very much "a DOTA". Whereas League of Legends
shares maybe 5%.

------
angrycoder
It would seem Bethesda fell victim to one of the classic blunders - The most
famous of which is "never get involved in a land war in Asia" - but only
slightly less well-known is this: "Never go against a Swede when trademark is
on the line"!

~~~
DNeb
Love the Princess Bride reference! I even read this in that character's voice
(what was his name?)

~~~
aserra69
Vizzini (<http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0093779/>) - played by Wallace Shawn
(<http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0001728/>)

------
GeneTraylor
This is tangential, but if you overlook the issue, then you'll find that this
_is_ how you do PR. Gaming even the serious things out is the perfect stage
for myth making. Asking a giant to battle you in a game over a trademark is
the stuff of legends.

------
saddino
The fact that Bethesda has engaged counsel means they've already invested in
defending their trademark rights. Agreeing to any "contest" in which they'd
abandon their mark would serve as record (to other competitors) that their
mark is diluted. No chance of that happening. Unfortunately this is a legal
issue now, not a game.

~~~
orillian
There is no abandoning or diluting going on. The trademark is still intact,
and they take the word "Scrolls" off the table as an issue.

Now if you decided to create a game called "The Younger Scrolls" they could
still go after you! The fact that "Scrolls" as a singular word is no longer
contestable would hold no baring on the legal action taken against you.

O.

------
michaeldhopkins
Bethesda's parent company owns Quake 3, so it's an away game for Notch.

------
troymc
I thought Bethesda was a city in Maryland. Talk about name confusion!

~~~
bigsassy
Bethesda Softworks started in Bethesda, MD. It's now located just up the road
in Rockville, MD.

------
famousactress
I think they should actually make their lawyers play the Quake 3 match.

------
tylerneylon
This is a great solution because it can settle things quickly with less stress
and let everyone get back to work.

Gamers are _not_ going to confuse Notch's and Bethesda's use of the word
"scrolls," so I don't see why either company should take this too seriously.
(Re-naming a game is less work than a drawn-out lawsuit.)

------
coderdude
I don't know anyone who plays The Elder Scrolls but I could see their fanbase
calling it "Scrolls" for short. If not for trademark, they could just be
trying to protect SERPs:

[http://www.google.com/search?ie=UTF-8&q=scrolls&tbs=...](http://www.google.com/search?ie=UTF-8&q=scrolls&tbs=qdr:m)
(query: scrolls)

[http://www.google.com/search?ie=UTF-8&q=scrolls+game&...](http://www.google.com/search?ie=UTF-8&q=scrolls+game&tbs=qdr:m)
(query: scrolls game)

You can clearly see that "scrolls" pulls up mostly pages about The Elder
Scrolls. (You have to ignore the pages about the lawsuit.) Then again, Notch
called his previous game Minecraft, which certainly makes you think of
Warcraft and Starcraft. Sounds like this is just his shtick.

~~~
jholman
No one in TES's fanbase calls it "scrolls", we call it TES ("The Elder
Scrolls"), because that's what Bethesda calls it, over and over and over
again. Or we mention the particular games by name and leave out the series
title: Daggerfall, Arena, Skyrim, etc.

~~~
Natsu
That is my experience as well. I've never heard _anyone_ refer to it as just
"scrolls."

I have heard all of the things you mention, though (TES, The Elder Scrolls,
Daggerfall, etc.), but never ONCE have I heard it called just "scrolls." Ever.

------
xom
The economic factors are totally different here, but still it reminded me of:

<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2690799>

quote:

 _"See the following paper for an economic analysis of trial by battle:_

[http://www.law.yale.edu/documents/pdf/Intellectual_Life/LEO....](http://www.law.yale.edu/documents/pdf/Intellectual_Life/LEO.Leeson.Trial_by_Battle.pdf)

 _I particularly liked this quote: "[I]t's reasonable to expect to find a
large number of retained legal representatives under a legal system in which
people feel that their property rights are constantly threatened by rent-
seeking litigiousness or in which rampant rent-seeking opportunity gives them
an incentive to behave litigiously themselves. The rarity of retained
champions in medieval England therefore suggests that rent seeking under trial
by battle wasn't rampant.'"_

------
fragsworth
Seems like a brilliant move on Notch's part.

------
joshaidan
Can this method be adopted to solve software patent disputes?

------
mrcharles
I wonder if Notch thought this through... Bethesda can draw on id employees to
play for them.

------
tjogin
Does that count as legally defending your trademark on Bethesda's part?

And _if_ Bethesda is right in that "Scrolls" is too similar to "The Elder
Scrolls", as to cause confusion in the market place, how would a game of Quake
rectify that?

~~~
Shenglong
In ancient Mesopotamia (according to my grade 10 ancient history class a long
time ago), when one man accused another of a crime, the accused would be
thrown into the Euphrates river. If the man died, then the gods decided he was
guilty. If the man survived, then he was falsely accused, and the accused
gained possession of the accuser's wife.

I believe the point of a duel in this context, though, is simply to avoid an
elongated legal process, arguing something so ridiculous and trivial. Notch
just wants to keep developing.

~~~
koenigdavidmj
Funnily enough, this got reversed by the time of the witch hunts.

------
revorad
Now I want to see Larry and Steve battle it out over Angry Birds.

------
jjm
Tonight on xplay Todd from Bethblog will be on. Rewteet?

[https://twitter.com/#!/jasongiedymin/status/1038604301575249...](https://twitter.com/#!/jasongiedymin/status/103860430157524993)

[https://twitter.com/#!/JasonGiedymin/status/1038613727057018...](https://twitter.com/#!/JasonGiedymin/status/103861372705701891)

------
rycs
I like notch, even before this, but now I feel morally obligated to buy
Minecraft even if won't ever play it, and Scrolls too :).

------
alfredp
This reminds me of a certain high stakes rock-paper-scissors match... For
future reference, use scissors against normal people:
<http://www.nytimes.com/2005/04/29/arts/design/29scis.html>

~~~
dkersten
According to Fez from _That '70s Show_ , rock always wins!

------
runjake
I have no clue who Bethesda is, but if they took him up on the offer it would
be great PR in the eyes of gaming(?) consumers. It would show they're cool and
don't take themselves _too_ seriously. They'd certainly win cool points from
me.

Do it, Bethesda.

~~~
tjogin
Right. But, Bethesda already have a stellar reputation in the gaming
community, their "The Elder Scrolls" series is many _many_ orders of magnitude
more well known than Mojang's upcoming game "Scrolls". The Elder Scrolls V:
Skyrim is one of _the_ most anticipated games this year.

Mojang and Notch have far _far_ more to gain from this than Bethesda do.

~~~
LXicon
it goes without saying that a 17 year old series is more well known than a new
game. on the other hand, i have never referred to "The Elder Scrolls" as just
"Scrolls". i've called it "Morrowind" or "Oblivion" and i'll probably refer to
the new game as just "Skyrim". if i saw a game that was just called "Scrolls"
i would not confuse it with Bethesda's games.

~~~
tjogin
I'm not saying you would, I'm saying PR wise Mojang and Notch have
_everything_ to gain from settling this matter of law in a game of Quake,
while Bethesda has very _little_.

------
cavilling_elite
awesome way to settle frivolous lawsuits

