
Those Aren’t Fighting Words, Dear  - mapleoin
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/02/fashion/02love.html?_r=1&pagewanted=all
======
grellas
I like to call it a "midlife adjustment" and there is not a person alive who
gets to that age who does not have to deal with it at some level - it really
is the transitioning from the phase of life where everything points up to that
in-between phase where things slow down, age starts to show itself more, and
our mortality looms nearer. We all react to it differently but _react_ we do,
unless we are beyond feeling.

This piece nicely sets forth how a wife stuck through a pretty tough time with
a husband who was adjusting pretty badly. It is a great story of how patience,
perseverance, and wisdom can see us through trials. The lesson is that grace
should control and guide us where our emotions would lead us to do things we
might otherwise regret.

~~~
ghshephard
I think it's a bit of a stretch to state "not a person alive who gets to that
age..." - The whole mid-life crisis thing is a function of societies that are
a little higher up in Mazlo's hierarchy.

I assure you that the significant part of humanity that is trying to track
down enough food, clean water, or even a warm place to sleep each night - let
alone adequate medical care or education, doesn't suffer from ennui. They, of
course, suffer from hunger, thirst, and exposure - problems, yes, but they
certainly have clear priorities.

Sometime happiness suffers when we are provided everything that we need, and
we end up asking ourselves, "Isn't there more?"

~~~
alanh
(Maslow’s.)

Yes, very true, and perhaps a great illustration of how we humans haven’t yet
evolved quite enough to deal with the very different challenges the affluent
nations deal with so soon after we as a species were struggling for survival.

~~~
msg
You can't evolve out of the meaning of life.

~~~
gjm11
Care to make your point a bit more explicit?

------
mrkurt
I'm not even going to write about how this applies to hackers and why it could
be a good lesson.

I really just want to say: "that was nice to read".

~~~
WalterGR
> I'm not even going to write about how this applies to hackers and why it
> could be a good lesson.

...How does it apply to hackers?

Either I'm extremely dense, or everyone is projecting their own opinion on
your vague comment.

~~~
mtinkerhess
My take on it is that the author had a system that wasn't working how she
wanted it to (her marriage), and rather than take the obvious approach to the
problem (discussion / argument), she understood the system well enough and
found an unconventional approach that gave her the results she wanted. Maybe
that's a little bit of a stretch?

The story is also about understanding what's valuable in life, which folks at
HN usually express in their desire to make a living on their own terms outside
the traditional workforce. In marriage or employment, finding and keeping
those things that are worth having is often really hard work, but if you're
lucky it pays off in the end.

------
tokenadult
May 2010 follow-up interview to this 2009 essay by Laura Munson from the
Guardian:

[http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2010/may/08/laura-
mun...](http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2010/may/08/laura-munson-
interview)

Laura Munson's new book:

[http://www.amazon.com/This-Not-Story-You-
Think/dp/0399156658...](http://www.amazon.com/This-Not-Story-You-
Think/dp/0399156658/)

~~~
martey
I think the Guardian article was especially insightful because Munson reveals
an important reason why her husband "turned around":

 _"His sister got cancer and her husband had just left her and she had five
children and she actually died last 4 July."_

I know why his brother-in-law left his sister, but this event might make him
more hesitant about leaving his own wife.

------
pook
Who knows how to make love stay?

“When we're incomplete, we're always searching for somebody to complete us.
When, after a few years or a few months of a relationship, we find that we're
still unfulfilled, we blame our partners and take up with somebody more
promising. This can go on and on--series polygamy--until we admit that while a
partner can add sweet dimensions to our lives, we, each of us, are responsible
for our own fulfillment. Nobody else can provide it for us, and to believe
otherwise is to delude ourselves dangerously and to program for eventual
failure every relationship we enter.” -- Tom Robbins, "Still Life With
Woodpecker"

~~~
andywood
For me, the harder problem is finding a partner who will not detract from my
substantial existing fulfillment.

~~~
sukuriant
How do you mean, exactly?

~~~
sliverstorm
my guess: (s)he loves <cars>, but all the (wo)men (s)he dates hates <cars> and
if (s)he married that (wo)man (s)he'd have to give up <cars>.

Replace <cars> with the tag of your choice :)

(^ one of the biggest crimes of political correctness: making everything so
damn hard to read and full of strange punctuation!)

Either that, or (s)he is typically extremely busy with very fulfilling things,
and is looking for either a similar partner or a partner who is simply
unusually low maintenance.

~~~
MrFoof
I've run into that dating. The conversation was along the lines of...

"So, it's paid off since I bought it with cash. The insurance is cheaper than
an economy car. The parts are as cheap as economy cars, save for wear parts.
It actually gets pretty decent mileage to boot. Why would I have to get rid of
it?"

"You just would, that's why!"

I had hung out with her for two weeks and apparently her idea of a happy
marriage was giving up everything I have, selling all my furniture (despite
the fact my apartment has won AWARDS), and buying whatever she fancied -
presumably an over-sized home not within walking distance of anything, that'll
be a maintenance nightmare after 20 or 30 years, and a crossover.

I'm all for compromise, but some gals demand total capitulation instead.

~~~
georgieporgie
> despite the fact my apartment has won AWARDS

Okay, seriously, how do you win awards for an apartment? That's got to be an
impressively flexible come-back for an awful lot of relationship-related
comments.

~~~
roel_v
I'm interested as well, and also in seeing pictures - no award-winning goes
without pictures so there have to be some.

------
nir
Sometimes it seems the quality of HN is deteriorating, and then a submission
like this, which you'd think one has to be at least 35 to even understand,
gets 149 points. Pretty amazing.

~~~
adriana
This is because relationships are paramount to programming languages, start-
ups, gadgets, etc.

------
balakk
I'm not going to comment on the lady - but there's one thing I wish; to hear
the other side of the story.

------
forkandwait
I thought that story was _awesome_ , though I completely respect those who
hated it. Here is whyb (somewhat stream of conciousness... sorry...):

Long term relationships take work and commitment, including possibly long
stretches of unhappiness. This article celebrates working toward something
besides "fun".

A rewarding life is NOT the same as being happy all the time. If you ask me,
focusing on happiness above all else is tantamount to addiction, and really
bad. ("Self overcoming" is what makes a rewarding life, and self overcoming
almost requires suffering; I study math -- suffering is fun once you get the
taste...)

She wouldn't take the blame for his crappiness, and decided to be OK with
herself; she practiced this OK-ness even when it didn't come naturally.

I hate to be all curmudgeonly, but between the 1960s and Freud we have adopted
a VERY self indulgent ideology which makes me want to puke. (And which has
probably fueled a big part of the conservative movement, unfortunately...)

I may have other less easily expressed reactions that are coloring my overall
gestalt, but I think those sum it up.

------
rikthevik
I'm surprised no one has brought up mental illness. There are very few of us
who will make it through life without some kind of depressive episode. Some of
use internalize it, some of us lash out and destroy the things around us.

I think the author knows very well the character of her husband. She realized
that these feelings and changes in him were out of character, and that other
things in his life might be causing him serious distress. She was patient, and
gave him the chance to leave if he really thought he needed to, and the time
to get his head straightened out. What she didn't do was respond to his
lashing out, making the situation worse.

As I see it, she stuck by her husband as he was having a hell of a time in his
life. She knew the kind of man he is, and that he'd be back.

------
andreyf
So I took this advice a bit too literally when this article came out, and was
in denial about all the tantrums my wife was throwing. This weekend, she told
me she's hired a lawyer and moved out with my daughter. Should I "buy it" yet?

~~~
wildwood
To whatever extent this article had any advice, it was not to ignore the
tantrums, but to ignore the attacks. The author responded to "I don't love you
any more" with "what can we do to make this better for you?"

If you took a similar approach, refused to engage in the personal attacks,
repeatedly tried to find common ground and ways to fix the problems, and your
wife still left... well, you did everything you realistically could. Your
focus now should be on maintaining your relationship with your daughter, IMO.

~~~
andreyf
That's probably the most encouraging advice I've gotten. Thanks.

------
jdietrich
I'd like to make a thoughtful comment, but I'm struggling to get past the
phrase 'age-appropriate'. As someone who has never been 'appropriate' to their
chronological age in any respect, it always comes across as reductive,
patronising and ultimately dehumanising. It seems to me to be the product of a
worldview which sees children not as distinctive individuals with unique
preferences and aptitudes, but as mere larvae passing through 'developmental
stages'. I consider it an affront to the dignity of all children and my teeth
are set on edge every time I hear it.

OK, <thoughtful comment>.

If I expressed my deepest feelings to someone who was close to me, the most
painful response I could imagine is "I don't buy it". If they spat at me or
hit me, then at least they heard me, took me seriously and emotionally engaged
with what I am saying. To hear "I don't buy it" is to be told "I don't
recognise your feelings as valid", it is to be told "you don't matter, I'm the
one in this relationship that decides what we feel about things". To hear
"What can we do to give you the distance you need" is to be told what you
need, not asked. When he said "I don't like what you've become", she didn't
want to hear what he didn't like, she didn't want to engage, she didn't even
acknowledge what he was saying, she just invalidated him and shut the
discussion down with "I don't buy it".

There's a good chance I'm being grossly unfair, but I can't see anything but
an emotionally manipulative woman, breaking the spirit of her husband by
refusing to engage with him emotionally. I see a man who has had his every
thought and feeling dismissed for years, who has become scarcely able to
recognise his own emotional autonomy. When he says “You’re going to make me go
into therapy. You’re not going to let me move out. You’re going to use the
kids against me.”, I don't see paranoia, I see a man who had a damned good
idea of what he was in for; Her only statements of any real meaning were to
tell him “What can we do to give you the distance you need, without hurting
the family?”, “[do] anything but hurting the children and me” and “It’s not
age-appropriate to expect children to be concerned with their parents’
happiness. _Not unless you want to create co-dependents who’ll spend their
lives in bad relationships and therapy._ ”. They all sound an awful lot to me
like some things you might say in order to manipulate someone into not leaving
by using their kids against them.

Of course we know nothing about their relationship prior to this incident and
very little about it since, but I find what we do know to be deeply troubling.
It seems to me that every aspect of this situation screams "PATHOLOGICAL
NARCISSIST". She seems completely unable to recognise the thoughts and
feelings of others, and seems to simply refuse to acknowledge the possibility
that there is an objective reality beyond her own imagination that she is
unable to control. As I said, I could be being grossly unfair, but everything
about this story sits badly with me and I find it deeply worrying to see this
woman unquestioningly lauded as wise and enlightened.

</thoughtful comment>

~~~
IsaacSchlueter
I think she's lauded as wise because this story gives the reader an easy
bromide disguised as deep understanding.

She never once in this story actually sat with her partner and tried to
understand what was going on with him. She gave him an answer, made a few
demands, and flat out refused to listen.

Reading this story broke my heart. I couldn't believe her utter weakness and
lack of compassion.

The truth is scary. Love is scary. Change is scary. These things loom over our
comfortable lives threatening to expose us to the changes going on outside our
realm of control. You don't own your lover, and the truth may one day be that
they're unhappy, and need to leave. That which can be destroyed by the truth,
should be.

If this is indeed a true story, I sure hope the guy has since managed to find
a good divorce attorney.

ADDITION:

    
    
        I’d finally managed to exile the voices in my head
        that told me my personal happiness was only as good
        as my outward success, rooted in things that were
        often outside my control.
    

This is a huge red flag.

Whenever some says that they've "finally managed" to fix themselves in some
major way, be very suspicious. It doesn't work that way. We keep our patterns,
and they find new ways to manifest until we learn through repeated painful
experience to turn them to our benefit some of the time.

There is no switch.

Her happiness was _still_ clearly very much rooted in her "successful"
marriage, her ability to provide a traditional two-coupled-parents environment
for her children, etc.

The first step to Happiness is admitting one's neuroses.

The second is admitting that the first didn't make them go away.

~~~
Confusion
_She never once in this story actually sat with her partner and tried to
understand what was going on with him_

Of course she has tried that and of course he couldn't explain what was wrong.
It is crystal clear that the man wasn't clear on what he thought should be
changed. As jjames points out in another comment, his life involves much more
than just her. This woman recognized that, accepted that and gave the man room
to work out his problems, because those problems did not (primarily) have to
do with their relationship.

~~~
sshumaker
Clearly this story wasn't the whole story. If you read the followup article,
you learn that his business recently failed, and he had lost his sense of
self-worth - all of which the wife was aware.

~~~
IsaacSchlueter
So why wasn't she helping him to process this pain and mourn his losses rather
than simply ignoring his pleas for help?

"Giving someone space" is not the same as just telling them you don't believe
them and turning away from them.

I remain convinced that she's a narcissistic person who doesn't know what love
is, and this story is heartbreaking for all the wrong reasons.

------
jaytee_clone
That's a very Zen way of dealing with conflicts. The level of self-control to
pull this off is admirable and something to learn from.

------
aoriste
personally, I think that the husband was lucky to last as long as he did
without succumbing to torpid disillusionment with himself, his potentialities,
and his powers. I'm so jaded and disgusted with myself most of the time that I
tend to not trust anybody who doesn't seem to want to blow their own brains
out.

------
ericb
I read this a little differently. I think she made a smart bet.

It seems to me he was having an affair. Knowing that most relationships don't
work out, she positioned herself perfectly to pick up the pieces when it
failed.

------
rmundo
Would that we all had someone in our lives who knows and loves us so well.

It's not always easy to pinpoint what exactly is it that makes us unhappy. And
according to Daniel Gilbert (seriously, check out his book and TED talks), we
sort of suck at predicting what _does_ make us happy.

And usually, we know what's better for ourselves than anyone else. That's
because we have more information about ourselves than anyone else, of course.
But it's easy to get lost in the echo chamber of our minds, and that's when a
second opinion becomes priceless.

------
jtbigwoo
Steps to writing an annoying article: 1\. Deny you're calling your husband
childish while comparing him to a child. 2\. Proclaim that you're impervious
to abuse by touting your toughness as if those in abusive relationships are
not physically tough enough. 3\. Highlight your suffering martyrdom as much as
possible while claiming that you refuse to suffer.

~~~
pyre
> _1\. Deny you're calling your husband childish while comparing him to a
> child._

She was using that as a metaphor. Using an image with which everyone (or at
least most people) can identify. Being angry/upset with yourself (or just your
situation) and taking it out on others is not something that is restricted to
childhood. The metaphor works better in terms of describing the method of
dealing with it (i.e. ignoring it, and not allowing the other person to drag
you into what is _their_ personal problem).

> _2\. Proclaim that you're impervious to abuse by touting your toughness as
> if those in abusive relationships are not physically tough enough._

When people speak of physical abuse, the usual retort is that one is 'tough
enough' to defend his or herself, even if the reality is that people in
abusive situations are really emotionally weak/co-dependent. Most people that
are trying to 'prove' to others that they are impervious to abuse are usually
trying to display something that can be seen/evaluated by others so as to be
interpreted as 'proof.' They are not usually thinking about the flip-side (the
implication that people that do 'allow' themselves to be abused are lacking
these traits).

> _3\. Highlight your suffering martyrdom as much as possible while claiming
> that you refuse to suffer._

This was the only part that I found mildly annoying. She repeats "I will not
suffer," while talking about the ways in which she was suffering, but trying
to get on with her life. It may be a good internal motto to use in such times,
but in reality she _was_ suffering.

~~~
Tichy
Ah, it was just a metaphor. That makes it alright then.

Also, from the follow-up article: "I am a 40-year-old trying to be a 20-year-
old, and I realise my career is done with and I have to find something else" -
not sure if that is really a victory to be proud of?

~~~
pyre
> _Ah, it was just a metaphor. That makes it alright then._

When we use car analogies to describe tech issues, does that mean we are
calling those issues cars? You can try to read into the subtext of _why_ she
used that metaphor all you want, but you can't say with 100% certainty _why_
it was chosen, other than to illustrate the point.

> _"I am a 40-year-old trying to be a 20-year-old, and I realise my career is
> done with and I have to find something else" - not sure if that is really a
> victory to be proud of?_

How so? I think that the 'victory' here is not of her over her husband, but of
her over herself. The 'easy answer' to the problem would have been to kick her
husband to the curb for being an ass (and basically abandoning his family to
have his mid-life crisis). She stuck with it believing that he would sort out
his issues in his own time. Sticking to her guns while feeling abandoned by
her husband is the real 'victory' here.

As far as him coming home with his tail between his legs? He spent the entire
summer basically trying to come to grip with reality. It was really his
attachment to the past (and to wanting things to 'stay the same') that caused
his 'defeat.' He was battling himself and his own misconceptions about how his
life was going to be.

------
pxstock
I liked the article. But whether or not I agree with the author is irrelevant.
What strikes me here most is to see things like this discussed in depth and
intelligently in Hacker News. That's magnificent and somehow heart-warming. I
have to say: I love this site :-)

------
vtail
I forwarded this to my (soon to be ex-) wife. I wish I had such an
understanding partner...

~~~
kingkawn
I think that wishing for it to be one way is what makes it not work. This
woman's husband didn't want an understanding partner, he wanted a battle. And
she didn't want to understand, she just wanted to not get caught up in it
herself.

------
iskander
>The dreams you set out to achieve in your 20s — gazing into each other’s eyes
in candlelit city bistros when you were single and skinny — have for the most
part come true.

It sounds like _her_ dreams were achieved. His dreams we never hear about.

------
jodrellblank
I find it an interesting comparison with the "I want to quit my job" feeling.

Except I'm stonewalling myself because I know the unhappiness is in my head
and that with a change of opinion it wouldn't exist anymore.

------
timinman
fantastic article. wise woman.

------
georgieporgie
I remember when this came up on Reddit a year ago.

Summary: hold on to your man by emasculating him, then wait for enough
depression to kick in that it suppresses his urge to improve his life.

Also, I'm going to guess that most of her fond remembrances of romantically
planning their future together primarily reflect what she hoped for, not what
he did.

In other news: people who write long-winded, self-obsessive essays and books
tend to be self-absorbed.

~~~
abstractbill
He wasn't emasculated. He was free to _actually_ leave any time he wanted. She
just called his bluff and he turned out to be unwilling to _really_ go through
with it.

~~~
georgieporgie
I think he'd been emasculated for quite some time. As others have mentioned,
she views and treats him as a child having a tantrum.

------
zeynel1
“Go trekking in Nepal. Build a yurt in the back meadow. Turn the garage studio
into a man-cave. Get that drum set you’ve always wanted. ..."

Is there anyone else who finds this a very condescending and nasty thing to
say? This ought to sound to her husband like fighting words.

~~~
joezydeco
When you're married and have the feelings like the husband did in this story
it will make a lot more sense.

~~~
georgieporgie
If there's ever a time when my wife distills my desires to building a "man
cave" or "trekking" that's when I know I married the wrong woman.

~~~
abstractbill
Ok sure, "man cave" is a dumb phrase, but how do you know the husband hadn't
regularly _talked about_ trekking in Nepal or converting the garage?

~~~
joezydeco
"Man Cave" is married-folk slang for "some personal space where I don't mess
with your stuff."

Have a gaming rig on a table that your wife can't go near? That's a man cave.
How about a car project in the garage? Fishing boat out back? Electronics
bench full of parts and tools?

------
0ffworlder
Heh, that article is crazy. Have fun with your 20 acre plot 3 kids and pony...
Who wants to get married in today's society? Your kids will just send you to
an "adult home" anyway. I'd rather be driving a high end bimmer/mercades and
be dating a woman 20 years younger than me when those years come around. The
"American dream" is a fabrication, have fun with your 20+ years of kids
leaching off you, 9-5 job, and all. How about legalizing prostitution, drugs,
getting rid of speed limits, compulsory education (12 years of brainwashing)
-- then there might be some fun.

------
confuzatron
Ugh. This is like reading about someone training a dog not to crap on the
floor.

------
mmaunder
She's a megalomaniac and he's a baby. I'll bet they both had extremely
dominant mothers.

