
The Gombe Chimpanzee War - gwern
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gombe_Chimpanzee_War
======
api
This is important also for our initially skeptical reaction to it. The fact
that humans assumed that apes would never war shows the prevalence of the
"noble savage" myth even among scientists.

The noble savage myth in turn is a modern (post-Renaissance) secularized
version of "the fall" described in Genesis and other ancient religious myths.
The idea is that God -- being good -- would never have intended nature to be
full of violence and deception. In theology this is known as the problem of
evil. Most Western religions solved the problem of evil by blaming ourselves
-- we did it, and we inherited this sin, etc. Modern secular nature-
worshippers (what I call "religious greens") have simply substituted nature
for God and civilization or some other development for the fall-- it's a
direct remapping of Judeo-Christian mythology.

"Uncorrupted" nature and pre-fall humans (if any exist, e.g. isolated tribes)
must not have these characteristics according to the myth. If they are
observed they must be a result of our "fallen" interference.

In reality nature is full of deception and warfare at all levels, and not just
in predator-prey or parasite-host interactions but among members of the same
species. This supports either an atheistic/naturalistic universe or a God
whose nature is rather more complex than "God is good." If you want to keep
theism, a polytheistic cosmology is also possible. Cultures who have a
dualistic view of God or a polytheistic cosmos don't have monotheism's same
sort of problem of evil.

This is also why I think suspension of value judgement is very important when
studying nature, even human nature. Sometimes I gain the deepest insights into
human behavior and culture when I try to look at things without making any
value judgement.

~~~
gretful
same concept as applied to other human cultures: Aztecs, Incas, Native
Americans, Africans - they're all considered 'at one with nature', superior to
European culture, when in fact they were just as bad (and in some cases) worse
than the culture that displaced or enslaved them.

We've gone from one end of the spectrum to another w/ regard to our
perceptions of 'other'.

~~~
api
Good point. "Other" used to be intrinsically evil and in need of our
enlightenment. Now it's intrinsically superior. Neither is true.

------
netcan
I'm don't remember the exact anthropological evidence and data points for the
claim but Gwynne Dyer, an awesome historian of modern, premodern and
prehistoric war concluded that humans and chimps are statistically similar in
their war culture. That is, roughly the same proportion of adult humans and
chimps die in violent conflict with neighbors in a "natural" state.

This holds in hunter gatherer cultures, nomadic pasturalist cultures, and some
middle ages cultures.

Many of the patterns are similar. Between core territories are large
borderlands (often larger than the territories) where most conflicts occur.
Most conflicts are opportunistic fights where one side has clearly superior
numbers. If one side is established as overly weak, dawn raids occur on core
territories.

------
damian2000
The community that won included a famous male chimp called Frodo, who went on
to become extremely aggressive - he killed a human baby, attacked Jane Goodall
and also cartoonist Gary Larson ...

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kasakela_Chimpanzee_Community#...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kasakela_Chimpanzee_Community#Frodo)

~~~
ColinCochrane
"Frodo died in 2013 from an infected bite wound to his groin."

Ouch

------
smoyer
If you're interested in learning a little more about Jane Goodall (and having
a lot of laughs in the process), TankRiot recently did an episode [1] about
her early work as well as her current activism.

[1] [http://www.tankriot.com/2014/149/](http://www.tankriot.com/2014/149/)

~~~
acqq
Don't just laugh, you can actually do something! She is 80 years old and still
very active, traveling and speaking through the world 350 days per year. If
you want to support Jane Goodall's Institute, you can donate here:

[https://my.janegoodall.org/donate?reset=1&id=21](https://my.janegoodall.org/donate?reset=1&id=21)

"Your gift will help the Jane Goodall Institute:

Fight the illegal bushmeat trade and wildlife poaching, a threat so severe it
could lead to the loss of several critical species including chimpanzees,
gorillas and elephants;

Provide a safe haven for orphaned and injured chimpanzees at Tchimpounga
Chimpanzee Rehabilitation Center in the Republic of the Congo;

Restore African habitat through balanced, sustainable, community programs
which involve local citizens in replanting forests and developing sustainable
livelihoods;

Educate and empower young people through Jane Goodall's Roots & Shoots
program. "

~~~
smoyer
I should clarify ... I wasn't laughing at Jane Goodall but rather at the
delivery (and side-bar content) of the TankRiot crew.

~~~
acqq
Yes, and everybody can actually do more than just laugh. That's what I wanted
to bring to everybody's attention.

------
Kiro
[http://michna.com/chimpanzees.htm](http://michna.com/chimpanzees.htm)

Extract about the war from Godall's book.

------
mercer
The big question that I'm left with after reading this article is: are there
particular factors that played a role in causing this war, or does this kind
of thing just 'randomly' happen.

Does anyone know if this has been researched to any degree, perhaps with other
groups of chimpanzees or entirely different species? I imagine that observing
these dynamics in a more 'primitive' creature could be enlightening to us...

~~~
tim333
There has been considerable subsequent research. The war like behaviour
appears common in Chimps but happens much less in Bonobos which are
genetically very similar to Chimps. There's a NYT article here:

[http://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/18/science/lethal-violence-
in...](http://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/18/science/lethal-violence-in-chimps-
occurs-naturally-study-suggests.html)

~~~
api
If I remember correctly (been a while since I studied this stuff), the line
leading to homo sapiens diverged _before_ the Chimpanzee/Bonobo divergence.
I've read a few things to the effect that humans show both chimp-like and
bonobo-like solutions to conflict depending on the context.

~~~
tim333
There was an interesting book about some of it, Demonic Males
([http://www.amazon.com/Demonic-Males-Origins-Human-
Violence/d...](http://www.amazon.com/Demonic-Males-Origins-Human-
Violence/dp/B005K6DTVG)). It might be a bit dated now (1997).

------
Nux
Chimps seem to exhibit very human characteristics. ;-)

~~~
njharman
That statement only makes sense if you have the (incorrect) assumption that
these characteristics are "human". They are __animal __, more specifically
predator /mammal characteristics. Humans are not distinct, special or
separate. Homo Sapien Sapien are nothing more than one end of a gradient of
"intelligence", "sentience", etc.

