
Stop Applying to Startups - quintendf
http://www.quintenfarmer.com/2012/08/06/stop-applying-to-startups/
======
mnicole
Where do all of these "unqualifieds" come from if the startup is just going to
hire through friends and recommendations; was there a public job listing
somewhere? If there's a job listing, people are going to apply for the job.
They're applying to see where they stand, they're applying to fill a quota for
unemployment, they're applying because they need a job. Can any company handle
all of the applicants it receives? This seems like a weak complaint.

> In the aftermath of his first interview, he has been getting in touch with
> all his close engineer friends and asking them to write to the company
> founder recommending him.

This sounds incredibly obnoxious unless your friends are well-known engineers.
Has this worked for anyone here?

~~~
brianlash
Maybe my industry (consulting) is different but yes, absolutely yes, this is a
tactic with nice ROI. I can't think of a single good reason _not_ to leverage
your existing contacts.

~~~
mnicole
References and testimonials, LinkedIn, Zerply, Github, et al? Maybe I'm too
suspicious; if after an initial interview I got a stream of emails from an
applicant's buddies/colleagues that I didn't ask for, I'd wonder why he felt
he needed to coerce them to do so. I also think it's a bit dangerous to latch
someone's technical skills to their social aptitude. Everyone has friends, not
everyone thinks it is professional to sweet-talk a founder on your friend's
behalf. I'd love to hear what others think, though.

~~~
brianlash
I think it comes down to discretion. I would never recommend flooding an
interviewer with internal email, but one helpful nudge from a respected
colleague who vouches for you won't hurt.

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j_baker
_It’s incredible to me that so many people still fail the most basic skill of
“interviewing 101″. As soon as possible after the interview, send a concise
thank you email._

Do people actually do this? I've always assumed it was one of those pieces of
advice they teach you in Interviewing 101 only to find that it isn't as
applicable to programming jobs.

~~~
jboggan
I'm doing it right now as I'm applying to and interviewing with startups and
more established companies in SF/SV. Even though my domain seems to be in
really high demand right now (data science/network analysis) I'm trying to be
gracious, quick, and communicative with potential employers because I want to
indicate that I'm that kind of person in a team environment in addition to my
technical assets. It seems to be working pretty well so far, especially with
smaller shops that are moving quickly. In the words of one founder I spoke
with today, "we have a hiring timeframe of yesterday" and I think it is
important to show them you are rarin' to go.

As a side note - if you are applying to startups, write your cover letters
while sitting in SF/SV coffee shops that are known startup hotbeds. If you
strike up friendly conversations with random folks wearing the right t-shirts
you'll often get recommendations to apply to places you've never heard of,
perhaps with a friendly "in" if you can impress them by being a personable,
well-balanced individual.

As a shameless plug, hit me up if you are looking for a data geek or someone
who honestly loses sleep over graph algorithms.

~~~
veyron
If you are going to ask that, you should leave contact information either in
the post or in your user profile. Otherwise how would people contact you?

~~~
jboggan
Can I give you all my karma for pointing out this oversight? I thought my
email was visible, fixed and thanks!

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alinajaf
I'm an average programmer, right in the middle of the bell-curve. I know
developers who are a great deal more intelligent than I am.

The market is such now that even little old me doesn't go two days without a
few emails from startup HR departments, networkers and recruiters. If I ever
find myself in an interview for a full-time job at a startup, it's going to be
be _me_ interviewing _them_.

~~~
blhack
I'm curious how these people know your email, and that you're a programmer.

Did you contact some recruiters at some point? Where are they farming your
email address from?

~~~
Wilya
Usually, emails come through Linkedin. People mostly see my name in a Meetup
group, or on my github page, and I guess they check with Linkedin for the
profile.

I get a few messages even though I have zero interesting projects or
distinctive characteristics out there, apart from a basic "I'm a backend
developer" presentation profile.

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jhuckestein
The author mentions that 90% of resumes are probably not qualified for a
position and suggests that many of those rejections are be due to a lack of
relevant experience.

This sounds like a horrible idea. There's a well-established history of
inexperienced people doing amazing things that their more experienced
counterparts couldn't do. This often includes founders (also true in other
disciplines like the arts and science)

Obviously this is a much more nuanced topic (personally, for most roles, I
would not consider random resumes on general principle because I don't think
it's a great way to make an impression) but if you're going to have hard rules
to weed out resumes, I would not recommend using experience.

It's a bit pedantic because this is not the article's main point, but it stood
out for me and I think discouraging inexperienced people from doing anything
is generally a bad idea.

~~~
quintendf
(OP Here)

I think it is important to note that there is a big difference between weeding
out resumes due to a heuristic like experience, and weeding out candidates
based on experience.

Take the oft-quoted Tristan Walker/Foursquare example. If Tristan had simply
sent his resume to "jobs@foursquare.com", It's likely that Dennis and Naveen
would have hardly looked past the first lines of his resume. However, because
Tristan worked his ass off to reach out directly, he was given a chance to do
amazing things despite his inexperience.

I entirely agree that inexperienced people shouldn't be discouraged from
trying to punch above their weight. I just believe that the bar for them to
gain entry is a bit higher than submitting a resume.

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chaostheory
Given the risks and costs involved, I think this is a stupid article.

1) It's cheap to apply to a startup. The worst that can happen is that you get
your ego bruised with a rejection

2) Interviewing at a startup will help you interview elsewhere. You will learn
something.

3) Startups complain about a lack of talent. Maybe you're the one to prove
them wrong.

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makomk
A.K.A. the reasons why there aren't many women working in startups? (Ask your
friendly neighbourhood feminist about old-boy networks today!)

------
mbh
The article is sad but true. However, #3 is gives the most ROI from an
interviewee perspective. It is not scalable for an interviewee to try going to
lots of tech meetups or conferences just to network with as many potential
hiring managers. One does not even know if they are hiring or not and if there
is an open position.

Also if one has a current job and looking to switch it is even more less
scalable as there is not enough time to do all these shenanigans.

Of course if you have the connection go leverage it...

I think for the better good we should encourage #3 as that is the right fair
approach where talent and skill set is at stake and not whether one had the
time and money to go to a conference/tech meetup.

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dustingetz
when i was seeking i cold emailed maybe a dozen startups at various stages
over a couple months, almost all of them responded. My typical cover letter is
about 3 sentences mentioning functional programming, link to a simple github
sample, and link to a recent technical blog post.

that said, intuitively you will get better offers when you are being
recruited, which means establishing a history of interacting with them,
participating in meetups, anything you can do to reduce their perception of
hiring risk.

obviously, once you decide where you want to work, you obsess over nailing
every piece of communication because your offer directly reflects their
perception of you, but this is self-evident.

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redditmigrant
Im curious, what is the point of the job listing on the website at all then?

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dataisfun
Interesting. I'd say though that if you're a very good engineer, you can
demonstrate that rather easily. And then social proof and all those other
factors don't matter that much. Founders spend some time trying to recruit
their friends away, but that's a very hard thing to do. Basically, if you're
qualified, you'll probably get a good shot.

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dougws
I've got two conflicting viewpoints on this article.

On the one hand, I got my current job (as one of the first 10 employees at a
startup) by "traditional" means--I saw a job ad, responded to it, interviewed,
and accepted the offer. It worked great.

On the other hand, I am now on the other side of the process, and I really
wish more people would follow your advice. Enthusiasm goes a really long way--
if you're competent and likable, I will likely vote to hire you if you seem
enthusiastic. Sending individual emails and doing company-specific prep for
your interview should be a no-brainer. Have enough confidence in your
technical chops (or non-technical jobs, I guess, if you're non-technical) to
put effort into the other aspects of your job search.

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jiggy2011
I don't think this is just limited to startups, most of the stuff here could
apply to any company.

Maybe the advice should be, don't "apply" for jobs period.

I always imagine that being an employer advertising a genuine job on a job
board (in this economy) is probably a similar experience to being a supermodel
and signing up for a dating website.

I wonder how well the networking approach will scale, I imagine it could get
annoying very quickly being a company CEO or whatever and getting hundreds of
emails every day from people who want to "have a chat about X".

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notJim
I wonder if this applies more for non-technical roles. In my most-recent
jobhunt, I applied at a number of startups people here will have heard of
using approach 3, and got a good number of callbacks and some fun interviews.
I certainly didn't have to suck up to anyone, do any spec work, or mass spam
the founders with unsolicited recommendations.

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dsolomon
Fine.

Then stop whining that "ohmahgawdz I can't find talent!!!11!!1"

~~~
veyron
What they are really whining about is not being able to find talent at a cheap
price. That is a problem not just for startups but for everyone.

~~~
dsolomon
Pesky minimum wage laws.

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vtry
Early stage startups are really not worth it from a risk/rewards perspective.

~~~
ihodes
That's a sweeping and unqualified statement. I'm very happy as employee #1 at
a very early-stage startup. I'm learning more, and faster, here than I could
hope to anywhere else. And not just engineering know-how. I'm getting a de-
facto business-school education. On top of it all, I'm having a lot of fun.

The risk is "maybe didn't maximize earnings over n years". The reward,
regardless of the startup's success is "learned a lot, enjoyed myself a lot".
That's reward I get no matter what.

EDIT: Additionally, I applied in the fashion of #3 (from the article).

~~~
vtry
Some startups will be worth it (eg: Google, Facebook), but if you average them
all, the risk/reward ratio is not worth it in general. There are a lot of crap
startup out there, and you only have so many years.

Also, if you are a VC or a co-founder, then the risk/rewards ratio totally
changes, and it's most definitely worth it. But if you are like the rest of
us, then it's a big NO.

