

NSA Rejection of Digital FOIA - jstreebin
http://blog.jarrett.io/post/53847082072/nsa-response-to-foia-request

======
JunkDNA
If you are the sort of person who is surprised by this, you need to get out
from under the rock you live under. This is what any self-respecting
intelligence gathering organization is going to say. Not revealing whether or
not information exists (let alone the actual information itself) has been a
staple of the trade from the very beginning of the intelligence community.
This response would be identical regardless of current events.

edit: typos

~~~
jsmcgd
Here's how I interpreted the letter: "We cannot confirm or deny the thing you
requested exists because that thing you requested is classified". Unless all
FOIA fail, it seems to me, in some broad sense, that they just confirmed the
existence of the requested material.

~~~
ctdonath
Read as "We cannot confirm or deny the thing you requested exists because if
it exists/existed it would be classified, and that includes your request of
whether it exists."

~~~
SCAQTony
I read it this way: "we are asserting our 5th amendment right to neither
confirm or deny we violated your 4th and 5th amendment rights so you can't sue
us and have some uppity judge make us follow the law."

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rsingel
This what's known as a Glomar response:
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glomar_response](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glomar_response)

That developed in law thanks to the press uncovering a secret, massive sunken-
sub-raising boat built by Howard Hughes for the CIA to retrieve a lost Soviet
sub (yes, the very thing that The Hunt for Red October was based on).

~~~
darkarmani
> Lower court precedent has thus far ruled the Glomar response to have
> potential merit, _if the secretive nature of the material truly requires it_
> , and only if the agency provides "as much information as possible" to
> justify its claim. Otherwise, the principles established in FOIA may trump
> claims to secrecy.

Is it required if they have no data collected and the subject isn't under
investigation?

~~~
dfc
Is what required?

------
johng
We can't tell you if we are monitoring you. Or what capabilities for
monitoring we have. Despite you being a US citizen which we would have no
reason to monitor.

Scary stuff folks.

~~~
sageikosa
You can't expect the secret police to divulge their secrets.

~~~
whaevr
Ooh gestapit..

------
sawyer
Last week: We'd be happy to respond to requests submitted via the handy dandy
online form - these paper copies are invalid.

Today: We're sorry, if we told you of the existence or non-existence of data
about you it would help terrorists.

~~~
fnordfnordfnord
"I know," says spook1 to spook2, "We'll put up a web page where the rubes can
enter their address, and have it automatically send them a
FOIA_GLOMAR_GO_JUMP_IN_A_LAKE_HA_HA.pdf"

------
RyanMcGreal
I cannot confirm or deny the existence or non-existence of a sense of humour,
irony or shame on the part of the poor functionary who had to send out that
response.

~~~
raintrees
One of my favorite lines from Men In Black: "We at the FBI do not have a sense
of humor that we are aware of."

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breakbread
I received pretty much the exact same response in the mail yesterday.

[http://i.imgur.com/CFgQ0eM.jpg](http://i.imgur.com/CFgQ0eM.jpg)

[http://i.imgur.com/yVEvptE.jpg](http://i.imgur.com/yVEvptE.jpg)

[http://i.imgur.com/inUUStL.jpg](http://i.imgur.com/inUUStL.jpg)

[http://i.imgur.com/qVGtdTj.jpg](http://i.imgur.com/qVGtdTj.jpg)

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jasonkolb
Absolute crap. Denied by an executive order, which is not legislated law and
definitely does NOT supersede the law that put the FOIA process into place.
This is garbage.

------
genwin
tl;dr:

Dear FOIA requestor,

You get nothing, by law. It's for your own protection.

Sincerely,

NSA

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driverdan
Jarrett, can you post higher res images or an OCRed version? Those images are
so small the text is about 4pt on my screen.

~~~
jstreebin
Sure thing, gimme a sec

~~~
jstreebin
[https://www.dropbox.com/sh/b8d4bb9pfgryj3t/mGBrXRzkkY](https://www.dropbox.com/sh/b8d4bb9pfgryj3t/mGBrXRzkkY)

Lmk if this helps

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vaadu
I'm surprised they actually replied to you. A reply is admitting they exist,
which they can not confirm nor deny.

~~~
pionar
A reply does no such thing. They can say that your request is denied without
even looking to see if the information exists first.

They're not saying, "It's there, we're just not going to admit it." They're
saying "We're not even going to begin looking for it."

~~~
yebyen
I think gp was saying: to reply to your letter is to confirm the existence of
the body, the NSA itself, who received and replied to your request.

Now we know they exist!!!

~~~
dhimes
We always knew NSA existed. Some of the other guys, however...

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sp332
When did the NSA start using Georgia? I always thought Times New Roman was
more "official".

~~~
redblacktree
Awesome. A comment on typography. :)

~~~
sp332
Well, it's not like there's any _content_ in this letter to look at :p

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tsaoutourpants
I hope that someone fights this. :) Just because the NSA determines that
something is exempt from FOIA doesn't mean that their determination is lawful.
I belive a court will rule that since it is entirely public that they've
collected the information, as well as how they've collected it, and there have
been government officials who have admitted to the program, their claim of
exemption is improper.

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coldcode
Hmm what would happen if the entire (US) Hacker News readership sent in an
FOIA request at the same time. Maybe we can destroy their photocopiers?

~~~
ctdonath
Taxes on American HN readers would increase accordingly to cover costs of
buying & operating new copiers.

~~~
alanh
Debt, rather. Expenses and taxes are divorced: it’s the deficit!

------
agarden
The logic makes sense if you assume that the NSA is only using the data to
target terrorists. In that scenario, the danger isn't that they will reveal to
innocent civilians that they have your data. The danger is the precedent. Want
to know if you are on their target list? File a FOIA. If they grant it, you're
okay. If they deny it, you're in their sights.

But since we already know that they are collecting this metadata on absolutely
everyone, I don't see what good it does to refuse to send it to you, whether
you are a suspected terrorist or not. ...I suppose you could be fretting about
whether you had slipped up and called Cousin Guido on your regular cell
instead of a throw-away prepaid phone.

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schrodinger
Ps, I've heard that apple will replace your iPhone for those purple specs in
the pictures.

~~~
jstreebin
Oh sick! Thanks!

Yeah, my camera has gone to shit. I'll take it in next time I'm near a store

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fourply
You missed a spot in p1 with the case number.

~~~
jstreebin
Oops, thanks

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edraferi
Surprisingly well-written response actually. Not too hard to figure out what
they're talking about.

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joering2
_Were we to provide positive or negative responses to requests such as yours,
our adversaries ' compilation of the information provided would reasonably be
expected to cause exceptionally grave damage to the national security._

simple as that: _we can 't tell you what you want to know, because we think
you are a terrorist_.

