
Business networking is overrated (2017) - ezhil
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/24/opinion/sunday/networking-connections-business.html
======
tluyben2
It might be overrated but when I read the crazy whiteboard interviewing, the
pains people go through to get money here on HN, I would say it is pretty
important. I never had to do an interview in my life (25+ years as a
professional), never had to really look for projects or investors. Not because
of my parents but because I like to talk and network and connect people. When
I need something I know where to ask. Sure maybe it is not required, but it
sure makes life a lot easier IMHO.

~~~
asaph
> ... when I read the crazy whiteboard interviewing, the pains people go
> through to get money here on HN, I would say it is pretty important.

Networking won't help you get hired at a top tech company if you cannot
perform well on "whiteboard interviews". It generally doesn't matter that you
have an internal referral. If you don't do well on the whiteboard, it's a no-
hire regardless of network. Even famous people get turned away for failing on
the whiteboard. e.g. the creator of Homebrew[0] when he interviewed @
Google[1].

[0] [https://brew.sh/](https://brew.sh/)

[1]
[https://twitter.com/mxcl/status/608682016205344768](https://twitter.com/mxcl/status/608682016205344768)

~~~
ousta
it will. not at an entry level job, not at a core technical job where you
still need to code but anything else (VP, Manager) it will

~~~
pound
but VP interview doesn't imply whiteboarding to begin with..

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CM30
Seems to be less 'networking is overrated' and more 'networking events are
overrated/don't work'.

Which makes sense. Those events tend to be about 99.99% desperate business
people try to sell you something, and don't really attract the attention of
anyone they'd need to attract nor the level of genuine closeness you'd need
anyway. It's like the offline equivalents of those 'promotion forums' and
subreddits you see online; absolutely depressing as hell because no one cares
about anything other than selling themselves and no one in their actual market
is around to take them up on the offer. In the same way you can't create the
next Facebook by solely marketing to people who want to create the next
Facebook, you can't make useful connections from events where everyone has the
same self centred goals.

~~~
robertAngst
Or niche.

Yeah there were a few pyramid schemes and coffee places at ours, but there
were a few people looking to problem solve.

But I dont think anyone was successful. I'm looking for a experienced business
mentor, lawyer, or co-engineer. None to be found.

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seem_2211
This article makes very little sense. It disparages "networking", and then
goes on to give all of these examples of successful networking. Successful
networking isn't about trying to get everyones details, or trying to pump your
brand at every opportunity possible - rather it's about working out where you
can add value to others.

Silicon Valley is built on networking - the referral paths that lead to
talent, capital, opportunities - it's all invite only. That's by design.

Platforms won't solve this. I'm in recruiting, where we're supposedly always
about to be disrupted. But the platforms don't solve the two big recruitment
problems - 1: you don't need more candidates, you just need a few very good
ones and 2: people who have good opportunities don't broadly see the value in
setting themselves up on platforms to "just look". But a lot of unqualified
tyre kickers do.

~~~
avinium
It's not that "networking" as a concept is useless - building solid
relationships helps you spread the word when you need talent, capital and
opportunities, or anything really.

I think the point is that "shallow networking" is useless. Simply because I
have your business card (or we're connected on LinkedIn), does not mean that I
am in your "network", or vice versa.

I think I have quite an extensive "network" (people with whom I meet regularly
and who are willing to help with introductions/events/etc).

That has taken a number of years to grow, and most of those relationships
started because I helped them out with something, with no expectation of
return. In other words, I actually was in a position to help, and I actually
delivered.

There's a lot of compounding/snowballing too - every person you help usually
introduces you to two or three others over the course of the relationship.
It's not even a "you scratch my back, I'll scratch yours" \- I'm genuinely
interested in helping out anyone I can.

------
motohagiography
Using Jeffery Pfeffer's model, power in business and organizations is a
function of performance, credentials, and relationships. These are weighted
differently in different places. It's important to know how they are weighted
in your field of endeavour, because it describes how people will be sorted for
success.

I would argue that it depends on what you are aiming for, and what your
desired outcome is. If there is attrition in your field, figure out why people
lose. Is it incompetence, a terminal lack of guanxi, or did they get layered
by someone from the right school?

~~~
id_rsa
I like the idea of power as a function of performance, credentials, and
relationships. From your experience in the tech industry, how would you
prioritize these 3 dimensions?

~~~
motohagiography
Different types of orgs are defined by how they are weighted.

Security startups, pure performance and relationships, with credentials a
distant third. Historically anyway, it's changing.

Since we're talking power, not rewards, relationships and credentials appear
to trump raw performance at some FAANGs as their business models
professionalize.

Impression is venture funding goes to whoever fits the profile, so ivy
credentials with relationships have the advantage over performance.

Different stages weight accordingly. The best businesses require the least
competence to operate and maintain, so maturity converges on incompetent,
nepotistic snake pits. :)

------
overcast
The only meaningful connections I've ever made, were made randomly sitting at
a bar, dinners, and anywhere else you're forced into sitting next to strangers
in a casual(not work related) environment. Seriously, if you want to meet
people, eat at the bar.

~~~
csomar
I think the fact that you are at a bar, and not hunting is what makes people
more open. When you are networking in an event (where everyone is), you have
your guards up.

You basically think everyone is a shark trying to get to you.

When you are relaxed at a bar (alcohol helps), you think people are chilling
out; and you tend to believe what the other guy is saying.

Here is another one: Airplanes. I have made some very good friends just by
sitting next to someone. (and some very interesting stories).

Another one which is a win-win: High caliber girls which introduces you to
their circles. Usually it's a set of another "good" girls that have boyfriends
who are rather established.

Another one is being married and meeting other married people through kids
activity. I'm speculating here I have never been through that.

~~~
matwood
The other big piece, is think of how you can help the person you're talking
to. Don't think about how you can help yourself. People who naturally try to
help others, end up getting help in spades when they need it.

------
tw1010
Maybe business networking isn't overrated, but the way you form connections
(shallow vs deep) that is the problem.

~~~
scrooched_moose
I think that's really the issue.

I've received some big breaks by knowing the correct people, but not a single
one of them has been a 2-minute connection from some BS networking event. It's
always been a preexisting, unrelated relationship which eventually becomes
career relevant.

I'm shocked by the number of seniors/recent grads who contact me out of the
blue (god knows where they got my info) asking for recommendations or a break.
No, I'm not going to stick my neck out by recommending someone I've never met
for an open position.

~~~
joshklein
On the other hand, when a recent grad or otherwise distant connection-of-a-
connection reaches out to ask me to coffee or a 15-minute call to “pick my
brain” about my career experiences (a so-called “informational interview”), I
almost never turn them down.

~~~
pthomas551
This is the way to do it. Then make the ask for a referral, interview, etc. at
the end. It usually works, I've gotten a good job doing this.

------
awat
This has certainly been my experience. The type of connections that seem to
really fast track the acquaintances I've witnessed move quickly through career
ladders, certainly weren't made at networking events. They were made at
weddings, bar-mitzvahs, and dinners. In other words connections that existed
with or without business networking events etc.

------
bitL
On my very first interview at Google long time ago (when they still did crazy
puzzles and combinatorics) I solved two tough problems nobody solved before
(interviewers told me). I didn't get in. Three years later another recruiter
told me they almost hired me (borderline decision), but nobody knew me, so
tough luck lol.

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cm2012
I'm a consultant with a pretty good book of clients now. I could never have
gotten started without a network of people I met at business/networking events
outside of work.

I've also never gotten a client through a personal or non-work connection. I
don't think my social or family network is ritzy enough for that to work.

~~~
mancerayder
I'm a consultant, too, but I'm new to it and for the past several years relied
on luck and recruiters/LinkedIn. Can I ask what types of events? Meetups and
tech events? Is that possible as a DevOps engineer, which is very much easy to
find via recruiters anyway?

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jondubois
>> Accomplishing great things helps you develop a network.

The author has experience on the networking side of the fence and it's
interesting to hear their point of view.

As someone who has experience on the value creation side of the fence (I
created a popular open source project), as much as I wish the previous
statement were true, it's not.

The problem is that wealthy investors don't know the difference between
apparent value and real value. It's just too complex for them to understand
and they just don't have the time. Also, investors expect talent to come to
them not the other way round. Another factor is that things that only appear
valuable tend deliver faster exits so they may be optimizing for smooth-
talkers with a sleek pitch deck rather than long term value creation.

I've worked in many companies where the manager doesn't know the difference
between a good engineer and a bad one. It's extremely frustrating. You would
think that these kinds of companies would go bankrupt eventually but no; they
have a monopoly over their niche/sector so engineering quality does not matter
at all. They can hire 100 times more people than they need and produce
horrible complex code which requires constant maintenance and it will only
represent a tiny dent in their budget.

If most engineering managers don't know what a good software engineer is, how
can a VC or investor know? Just because they worked at Google and can solve
the Tower of Hanoi puzzle using recursion does not make them a good engineer

------
jedberg
Every full time job I've ever had, even the first one, came from networking
and connections. Of course there is a balance to strike, and you can't just go
to a ton of events and hope that it works out. But going to the right events
that lets you make a deep connection with one or two people can be very
useful.

------
griffinkelly
Its all about knowing the right people and being intelligent. To say its all
one or the other is naive. I will say a good majority of networking events are
the 'wrong' people. They're all out looking to network and you don't get
anything aside from a few business cards of people who can't help you, or
ultimately don't want to; they're just looking for you to help them. Every
break I've gotten in life has come from knowing the right person, particularly
through my university alumni network.

I do a significant amount of business in Japan, and the Japanese perceive
America to be all about networking. The reason being, in Japan most folks stay
at the same company their entire life, there is no need to really network.

~~~
chrisseaton
> The reason being, in Japan most folks stay at the same company their entire
> life, there is no need to really network.

Don’t you still need to network within the company, network to find customers,
network to find mentors, and so on?

~~~
afiler
I think that's called interacting with people over the normal course of
business, and isn't something that's thought of as requiring specific targeted
effort.

~~~
ghaff
Correctly or not, the term "networking" has come to carry a connotation of
attending "networking events" and passing out business cards with great
abandon. I meet and keep in touch with tons of people at conferences and
otherwise in the course of my daily activities but I don't really think of
that as Networking.

------
inuhj
There are entrepreneurs whose primary income is serving as 'glue' through
networking. They are constantly tapped to connect companies and bring projects
to life. Typically they make themselves available to solve problems for you
and make introductions.

~~~
ForHackernews
Is there a business opportunity to figure out how to cut out these expensive
middlemen? Some kind of bidding market? TaskRabbit-for-the-enterprise?

~~~
hnaccount141
That wouldn't really be cutting out the middleman so much as it would be
becoming the middleman though.

~~~
ForHackernews
"Becoming a cheaper/faster/more convenient middleman" describes almost every
technology business.

------
BeetleB
I think the author has little idea on what networking is.

The first rule of networking: If you're clearly doing it to further a career,
you will fail.

A lot of people criticize it, but "Never Eat Alone" is worth a read.

------
yawz
Give First! <\- This is business networking done right.

------
exolymph
"Networking" in the LinkedIn sense is overrated; having lots of friendly
acquaintances and friends who respect you is correctly rated highly. It's
extremely useful (and also fun, at least if you enjoy people).

------
gnicholas
> _Spanx took off when Oprah Winfrey chose it as one of her favorite things of
> the year — but not because she was stalked by the company’s founder, Sara
> Blakely. For two and a half years, Ms. Blakely sold fax machines by day so
> that she could build her prototype of footless pantyhose by night. She sent
> one from the first batch to Ms. Winfrey._

So the take-home message is don't network, just physically spam celebrities
with your product. Got it.

------
mcnichol
This article feels like an opinion piece. I say feels like because there were
a few studies referenced light heartedly which had me hoping we'd see more.

If this article could gain that higher source of truth I'd argue it's a heck
of a bombshell to the conversation...otherwise my experience and many others
in comments below seem to differ.

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lurcio
You got to get along to get along

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thebladerunner
How about making friends instead?

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thebladerunner
Duh!

