
In Sweden, cash is king no more - mebe
http://news.yahoo.com/sweden-cash-king-no-more-082544562.html
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gyardley
I would have to trust my government a whole lot more than I do to be
comfortable with this - and then trust that my government isn't going to
change over the course of my lifetime.

Surely Swedes buy drugs and cheat on their taxes, just like the rest of us.
Even if you don't - why wouldn't you want to ensure you can quietly conduct an
illegal transaction, should a currently unforseen need arise in the future?
Getting rid of cash seems awfully shortsighted.

~~~
arketyp
This problem is already (partly) solved by exchange in digital gold currency.
Pecunix and e-gold are two such services.

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vier
I don't know any drug dealers who take that.

~~~
joejohnson
I know a few that take bitcoin :)

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mattmiller
Do the Visas and Mastercards of Sweden still get their cut of every
transaction? What a great way for these companies to solidify their corner of
the market.

Here is what I want: a way to do electronic transactions anonymously and
cheaper that the current options. How do you do this while combating fraud?

~~~
lflux
Yes, Visa, MC and Amex take a cut. This infuriated shopowners to no end when
they raised their tariffs, prompting a wave of "no charges under 50kr" or "3kr
extra if you're paying with card (under x kr)"

~~~
niklas_a
No, the _banks_ take a cut. The interchange fee that goes to the networks
(VISA & MC) is very low (don't know the exact amount).

AMEX is another beast. AMEX is not sold through banks and AMEX can therefore
set their own very high rates. This has caused many retailers to stop
accepting AMEX altogether. IKEA being a good example of such a retailer.

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greenyoda
Cash is remarkably resistant to all the potential problems that could disable
credit card transactions. For example, in 2003, much of the northeastern U.S.
was affected by a power blackout that lasted over a day in some places, and of
course credit card readers require power to operate. The servers that support
credit card transactions have backup power (although only for a limited amount
of time), but they're also vulnerable to network outages, software failures
and deliberate attacks (we've seen how bad some of our major banks are at
security). Having cash as a backup seems to be a prudent choice.

~~~
_delirium
When I lived in Santa Cruz, we had a day-long internet outage due to a fiber-
optic cable being cut, which led to most shops not taking CCs, despite there
being no trouble with the power. A few mom-and-pop shops did good business by
essentially agreeing to take IOUs; they wrote down CC #s on paper and manually
ran them later, although afaik that's contrary to most CC companies' policy:
<http://www.mercurynews.com/centralcoast/ci_12115324>

~~~
patrickgzill
Actually it is still accepted by CC companies to use the old hand operated
machines that have a roller, that takes an impression of the card.

~~~
justincormack
Not sure if those are still accepted in Europe; fairly sure they no longer
work.

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RugerRedhawk
Not necessarily a good thing. No cash means no privacy.

~~~
gxs
Agree. I never understand these dichotomies people set up. Why can't we just
have both? The US system is a good balance, at least at the moment- you have
an option to do either, with cards widely accepted except for a few ma and pa
bars and restaurants.

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Chrono
As a Swede I am used to always being able to pay with my card; Heading to the
bar? No need to withdraw cash. Grabbing a taxi home late at night? No need to
worry if you have enough cash, they accept cards.

To add to this is that electronic transfer of money to both businesses and
private citizens is quick and easy. If you transfer within the same bank it is
instant and takes up to a day, depending on the hour, to transfer between
banks.

~~~
tjoff
As a Swede, I always bring cash. Heading to the bar? Already have cash in the
wallet. Grabbing a taxi home late at night? No need to worry that I don't have
enough cash on me.

Store temporarily only accept cash due to some error? Replace panic with
nonexistent queue.

Regardless of whether you always pay cash or always pay with a card and
regardless of whether you value privacy or not - you should always, in my
opnion, have some cash with you. That has served me well and I've never in my
life regretted having too much cash on me. The day I get robbed the cash I
have on me is the least of my worries, if anything having an empty wallet
might be provoking to someone that just tried to rob you (or a lot of money
might get him (or her) greedy and ask for more, you never know).

Note to self: Get rid of (and remember) the CCV code on the card and destroy
the magnet stripe on my card. Anything not working with the chip isn't worth
the hassle nor worth the trust of using a card (that might sound strange for
some but in Sweden the use of the magnet stripe is quite rare).

~~~
kristiandupont
Out of your three examples, only the last one is an argument for cash over
cards. Is that the reason why you prefer cash? Or is it the privacy thing?

~~~
tjoff
Cash is faster, I have better control over my money (but that's just because
of how I'm handling them, YMMV), and the privacy part doesn't hurt - That's
more of a principle than anything else, I _really_ feel that we must have a
anonymous way for payments AND that the anonymous method must not in any way
be suspected of foul play just for using it. That is the first "danger" that
will come, that people get so accustomed to cards that the day someone wants
to pay a packet of gum with cash you get suspicious - that is something that I
will truly dislike. And given the current development I see no reason as to
why that won't be the case in the semi-near future.

Also, cash is _much_ safer. That everything that is needed to take money for
me is written on a card that I have to pick out for every purchase is beyond
lunacy. And people actually have stomach to say that post-it notes with your
password is bad (it is, but in perspective)...

So part of why I mostly use cash is of principle, cards are just so insecure.
It's not that I'm afraid I'll get in trouble but part is principle and the
other part is that I have no idea if my "secret" number is revealed to the
wrong person. 8 months later I'll potentially be denied a purchase because the
card is empty...

I do however use my card from time to time, but mostly cash. And so far the
benefits of using cash are actually greater than that of a card in my eyes -
so even without the benefit of security and privacy I'd still use cash.

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mongol
Swede here. There is a part of the article that warrants special attention:

> The number of bank robberies in Sweden plunged from 110 in 2008 to 16 in
> 2011 — the lowest level since it started keeping records 30 years ago. It
> says robberies of security transports are also down.

It was not long ago when armed robberies of security transports were a serious
serious problem. Now when the article mentions it, I make a mental note that
this has indeed decreased a lot. I think only a few years ago Sweden had lots
more robberies of vehicles than the neighbouring countries. There were
discussion about arming the guards, but it was argued that would escalate the
violence. We have also seen many movie-like heists, the last (widely reported
one) was a heist involving explosives, helicopters and sabotage of police
helicopters.
([http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V%C3%A4stberga_helicopter_robbe...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V%C3%A4stberga_helicopter_robbery))

I don't know but I assume that decreasing cash usage has been an active
decision to combat the armed transport robberies.

~~~
ftwinnovations
> The flip side is the risk of cybercrimes. According to the Swedish National
> Council for Crime Prevention the number of computerized fraud cases,
> including skimming, surged to nearly 20,000 in 2011 from 3,304 in 2000.

Damn flip sides...

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jacobr
Swede here, and as paranoid as the next person. I moved from Gmail due to
privacy concerns. I block a lot of tracking domains at DNS level.

However, those are trade-offs with very little negative impact in my daily
routines. A slightly worse UI for my email is nothing like moving from cards
back to cash. It would be like moving from the Internet back to snail mail
because email is insecure, or perhaps to Stallman type email/wget web
browsing. Simply not worth it.

Speaking of snail mail, I send a handful of those a year and barely know where
to put the stamp. I handle my taxes, student loans, banking, social insurance
(for my kid), etc, online.

I would love better regulations for usage of consumer data, but cash? No way.

~~~
_delirium
I get the convenience for things like paying rent, taxes, etc., but the main
reason I _don't_ use credit cards for small things is how much less convenient
it is. Much easier to hand over 50 Kr than go through the routine of: gesture
to indicate I'm paying with card / make way over to machine at the end of the
bar (waiting if someone else is using it) / insert card / enter pin / pause to
confirm it went through. Even if I have to wait to receive change, it's
usually still faster.

~~~
niklas_a
The downside being that you have very little consumer protection if you buy
something that is broken.

I buy everything through my Mastercard credit card. I always pay my bill at
the end of the month so I never pay anything extra for it.

It has saved me countless of times when I have ordered stuff online or bought
stuff in stores that they have refused to take back. And on top of that I get
bonus points that have given me free flights.

~~~
_delirium
I doubt a credit card is going to do much for me if I receive substandard beer
or coffee. :)

I do use credit-cards for purchases of physical items. European cards don't
typically give cash-back or bonus points, though.

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veb
In New Zealand, we use cards for _everything_. Taxis, corner shops, bars...

However, cash still pays a massive part in our economy. Mostly for people who
want to remain anonymous with their transactions. Heaps of livelihoods depend
on cash; farmers markets etc.

~~~
te_chris
Came here to say this. I barely ever use cash here, even for small 1-2 dollar
transactions. Cash is an inconvenience. Mobile eftpos is pretty sophisticated
here and you'll find that a lot of stalls at places like farmers markets often
have eftpos machines. We haven't got a square et al here yet, but once that
arrives I can't really see people ever using cash for much of anything.

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read_wharf
"One should be able to send money and donate money to different organizations
without being traced every time," he says."

That's a tough problem, which the _US_ government will demand of foreign
governments and fight tooth and nail at home.

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conradfr
"If there were no cash, what would they do?" says Ulvaeus, 66.

Well, he's in for a surprise ...

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drucken
I think this (article page) comment says a lot about the real motivation:

"...So instead of taking the very SMALL and SLIM chance I'll get robbed by a
street thug - I should switch to digital currency and just allow the banks to
DEFINITELY ROB me... yeah, right..."

I also found it interesting that the article made no mention at all about the
tourism industry.

So, already five strong reasons why cash will not go out of fashion any time
soon:

1\. Privacy.

2\. Tourism.

3\. Cost (tends to be important for non-banks). Both on-going and capital
costs.

4\. Store of value (tends to be important for elderly and some wealthy
people). This can also cover electrical failure, database corruption or theft,
including government or non-government financial fraud or error.

5\. Ease of use (tends to be very important for elderly).

In addition, there is simply no viable alternative that covers all or even
most of the above.

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joejohnson
A lot of voices in this thread seem concerned about the extra power this would
grant the Swedish government. I'm confused: if anything, wouldn't this give
the government less control? I'd be more afraid of Visa/MasterCard having a
monopoly on simple transactions. Maybe eventually the credit card company's
networks will be deemed a public good, and then government will take over the
payment processing infrastructure, but until then I think the corporate
overlord scenario is much scarier.

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algad
So in a few years, the govt. will get a report at the end of the year showing
that model Swede citizen has bought more than the recommended amount of meat
or alcohol or, heavens forbid, has bought tobacco products. And not enough
fruit/veggies. So the friendly Swede govt. will "recommend" that model Swede
citizen fork over an insane amount of money and "optionally" attend re-
education classes in healthy living. Can you spell Big, Big, Big Brother?

~~~
joejohnson
It's not really like that in Sweden. A lot more would have to change in
Sweden's national government; public policy, especially with regard to privacy
issues, are amongst the best in the world. This doesn't mean a super-fascist
regime is impossible in the future. But why would a shift away from paper
money bring about the changes you propose?

~~~
algad
Because with all transactions recorded it would become possible and when
something becomes possible, oftentimes govts are tempted. As an exemple, where
I live the govt cross-checks your income tax filing with the automobile
registration records and if there is, in their opinion, a discrepancy, you
have to explain yourself.

Also my comment does not single out Sweden, it is more of a general
observation.

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Vitaly
I expirienced the exact opposite in Maebashi Japan circa 2003. We had to go to
Tokyo to find a place to get some cash out of our foreign issued credit cards,
and even the local ones were not universally accepted. For such a high-tech
nation as Japan I was completely shoked.

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lignuist
In combination with the transaction tax (currently discussed in the EU - [1]),
this is a killer tool, to get more money from citizens.

Also: how is this supposed to deal with power outages? No food, when there is
no electricity?

[1] <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Financial_transaction_tax>

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itmag
I haven't noticed this at all, except for the public transportation. If
anything, there are plenty of businesses that won't accept cards under a
certain limit (usually 100 crowns, or about $15).

~~~
hackermom
The only businesses that don't accept card/chip in Sweden today are the "turk
shops" - the shady little corner shops that sell old, dry pick'n'mix candy and
stale bread.

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dfc
Why can't a thief force you to transfer money electronically just like the
money was transfered for the church donation? (I am not saying that the church
donation was coerced.)

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icebraining
Presumably because the transaction would be logged and he would get
immediately caught.

~~~
dfc
Have you ever seen how quickly money is moved/laundered after an ATM skimming
operation?

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rokhayakebe
I wonder what that would do to the illegal drug industry.

~~~
ams6110
Barter, or elaborate e-laundering of transactions. Where there's a market
there will be a way.

There was a story recently about the growing problem of theft of Tide laundry
detergent, people paying drug dealers with stolen Tide detergent.

~~~
WiseWeasel
Did the drug dealer happen to be a laundry detergent distributor?

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hexis
Maybe it would be better to get rid of muggers instead of cash?

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icebraining
And how do you propose to do that? Pre-crime?

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paulhauggis
The culture is based on government rule and control+high taxes, this is the
next logical step and it doesn't surprise me.

