
NSA Careers for DEF CON Attendees - fmavituna
http://www.nsa.gov/careers/dc20/
======
illumin8
I was offered a nice contracting job at a USAF base. All I had to do was run a
single large Oracle server (Sun Enterprise 10000). I asked "what does the
system do?" The recruiter told me the database handled the parts ordering
system for foreign countries that need to order replacement parts for F-15
fighters that the US ships to them.

I turned down the position for ethical reasons. Somehow, I'm not comfortable
knowing that I helped facilitate the export of US weapons systems to foreign
countries that history has shown us are likely to use them to bomb their own
people, or innocent people in their neighboring countries. The fact that most
of these F-15s end up in middle eastern countries seems to be standard
operating procedure for the US government. Then, later, when the next dictator
they propped up starts bombing innocent civilians, the politicians will act
outraged "who knew that by supplying weapons systems to a dictator he would
ever turn them on innocent people?"

Sorry, but I don't want the blood of innocents on my hands. Working at the NSA
might not directly be as damaging, but you better believe that people will die
indirectly because of something you helped work on. Do you want that guilt on
your conscience?

~~~
lincolnq
I don't understand the moral intuition here: why is working on that Oracle
server morally wrong, but not paying taxes to the country which bombs those
innocent civilians?

~~~
cbryan
I've been in a similar situation, and I think it's about risk. It's relatively
easy to decline a job, you're not going to jail for turning down a gig. Not
paying taxes will get you some serious jail time though. So morally, yeah,
both actions are enabling the same results, but one is easier to commit to.

~~~
mindslight
Also, not paying taxes has less prospect of leading by example. The sheer
majority will attack you for not paying your "fair" share, as they internalize
their rulers' plans as their own to feel a sense of purpose.

~~~
drivingmenuts
There's some justification for that, though. If you don't pay your portion,
then that's less funding for the things that are common good, as well as
common bad.

I don't particularly think it's all that great that childless homeowners pay
school taxes on their property, but I accept the reasoning for it.

------
white_devil
"Help us monitor the communications of private citizens all over the world,
even if they use encryption!"

( Need I remind you of this?
<http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2012/03/ff_nsadatacenter/> )

Hey it's challenging work! Just like devising new algorithms for helping Wall
Street rape the world's economies!

It's exactly what a true hacker wants and needs. Tinker with your favourite
programming languages and tools! Go crazy with mathematics! Help us rape the
little folks!

~~~
briandear
That's just nonsense. Where's your outrage over the stuff the Syrians,
Iranians and North Koreans. You can bury your head in the sands of outrage,
but meanwhile, people are working hard to maintain your freedom to enjoy your
conspiracy theories. Wall Street isn't raping world economies. That's just
anti-capitalist nonsense. "The most important single central fact about a free
market is that no exchange takes place unless both parties benefit."

~~~
white_devil
I take it you work in finance then.

------
Zenst
Have to appreciete the direct honest approach:

"It's true that you must be a U.S. citizen, and you'll need a security
clearance that requires a background investigation and polygraph. But ... If
you have a few, shall we say, indiscretions in your past, don't be alarmed.
You shouldn't automatically assume you won't be hired. If you're really
interested, you owe it to yourself to give it a shot."

~~~
epoxyhockey
_Have to appreciete the direct honest approach_

You know, they are only referring to smoking pot once or twice, right? Admit
to running a small botnet or monitoring GSM calls and I'm sure your 2nd
interview will be with the FBI .. not for a job.

This whole NSA/DEFCON relationship smells funny. I've lost a lot of respect
for DEFCON.

~~~
mentat
Many of the leaders of DEFCON work for the government. I've come to suspect
that it's 'pwned' and is now revealing its form as a recruiting tool.

~~~
epoxyhockey
_Many of the leaders of DEFCON work for the government_

I can confirm this. Though, to be realistic, I haven't encountered any
conference or local 2600-type meeting that _hadn't_ been pwned by government
representatives. What I haven't seen is the active promotion of the very
agencies that are working hard to put meeting attendees in jail.

------
conductor
<!-- OK. You found the Easter egg, but don't think you're clever just 'cause
you identified an HTML comment. There's more to find if you take a closer
look. And if you really want to prove yourself, apply for a job and show us
what you can really do. -->

~~~
hendzen
Then if you zoom in on bottom of the background
(<http://www.nsa.gov/careers/dc20/images/Back.jpg>) in the light blue swoosh
there is a message: "GNXR N PYBFRE YBBX NG ANGVBANY FRPHEVGL NG AFN"

Which is ROT13 for "TAKE A CLOSER LOOK AT NATIONAL SECURITY AT NSA"

~~~
stbullard
Nothing there, I'm afraid.

That is, unless they're intercepting Google searches for the decoded phrase,
in which case, hello! Feel free to check out my resume, which you can find in
my Documents folder, and I look forward to hearing from you shortly.

~~~
conductor
I can confirm it's there, look closer.

~~~
stbullard
Oh, I saw the ROT13 text; I was saying there's no real easter egg there, just
a dead-end tagline.

------
tptacek
For a government hiring req, this is shockingly well written.

~~~
timsally
One of this really interesting things I've discovered over the last year is
that the government is really heterogeneous; extraordinary competence exists
in many places. When you think about it, it makes perfect sense. There are
talented hackers working on the kernel instead of Wall Street for ideological
reasons. It not that great of a leap to imagine that there are also talented
hackers (and people who are talented at recruiting) who ideology causes them
to work in government.

~~~
ArbitraryLimits
Or the government is just the last place left where you can count on a stable
paycheck, and lots of engineers like to optimize for that instead of for the
possibility of striking it rich.

It used to be, anyway.

~~~
zheng
What about Google, Microsoft, IBM, etc?

~~~
ArbitraryLimits
You mean the IBM that almost disintegrated in the 90s, and that now employs an
entirely different workforce than it did then because their core business has
completely changed? And IMO Microsoft is being driving into the ground, it
certainly won't be known as a stable employer within 20 years. We'll see what
happens with Google, I guess.

------
nraynaud
And if you think it's ok to use national security means to spy on foreign
companies to rig the economic competition and if you think a human being from
another country has less rights to privacy than one with a US passport, apply.

~~~
briandear
Right. Because China and France would never do that. One of the primary
purposes of French Intelligence is industrial espionage. Before you make
ignorant statements about the NSA how about getting some facts?

Also, if those 'human beings' are trying to blow up Americans, then I don't
care about their rights. I have a right for my kid to not get killed while
traveling on the subway. I have a right to not have bombs blowing up while out
at a nightclub. Is the NSA perfect? Of course not, but it's a dangerous
imperfect world. When people stop blowing shit up in the name of their deity,
then I'll gladly revise my opinion of the relevance for the NSA.

Where's your outrage over Syrian and Iranian Intelligence and their tactics?
How about North Korean intelligence and their wholesale kidnapping of hundreds
of Japanese citizens? How about the Chinese and their operations in the US?
It's a popular sport to pick on the US from the safety of an armchair, but
it's quite another to address the reasons the NSA and CIA do what they do. I'm
not defending all of the actions of those agencies, but I will certainly
defend their mission and goals.

The fact that you can even safely criticize the NSA and feel secure that you
won't be arrested is a testament to the freedoms the NSA helps preserve. Spend
ten minutes in China and start posting messages about their MSS and see how
long your comment stays up (and how long before you get a visit from a local
Public Security Bureau officer.)

~~~
sp332
_Where's your outrage over Syrian and Iranian Intelligence and their tactics?_

Your entire rant is irrelevant. Independently of how much you dislike foreign
agencies, working for the NSA might _also_ pose ethical problems.

~~~
briandear
Murder is unethical, but when you're at war..

------
richardofyork
A few NSA reps should hang around HN, if they are not already, to respond to
any questions and partake in the discussion on this thread.

~~~
mindcrime
_A few NSA reps should hang around HN_

Please don't give them any ideas. I mean, I imagine they monitor this site
already anyway, but why encourage them?

What would be really cool, would be if pg could determine if an incoming
request was from the NSA, and redirect any such requests to youporn.com or
something.

Now sure how you'd detect the NSA requests though. I doubt they publish which
netblocks they snoop from, and I doubt their browser UA string says
"NSABrowser 1.0 (Mozilla 4.0/Compatible)" or anything.

------
orangethirty
I love their CSS naming convention.

    
    
        #maincontent {
       	width:941px;
    	margin:0px auto;
    	}
    
        #maincontentleft {
    	width:228px;
    	margin:0px auto;
    	text-align:left;
    	float:left;
    	 
    	}		
    
        #maincontentright {
            background-image : url(images/tableGrad.png);
    	width:699px;
    	margin:0px auto;
    	text-align:left;
    	 
    	float:right;
    	color:#ffffff;
    	}	
    
        #maincontentright1 { /* a lowercase L or a number one ? */
            padding:15px;
    	}
    
    
    

In their careers page (<http://www.nsa.gov/careers/>), there is a comment that
reads: <!--do not remove the extra close a tag, needed to fix an error in
ia/academic_outreach/nat_cae/cae_r_program_criteria.shtml-->

I thought they would be using template inheretance for such a big site.

------
motters
Embrace, extend, extinguish

~~~
mindcrime
_Embrace, extend, extinguish_

But is the NSA EEE'ing the Hacker community, or is it the other way around?

------
SeanDav
Impressive, who would have thought a government agency could have signs of
imagination and even <gasp> fun!

------
yownie
<http://antipolygraph.org/index.shtml>

------
quote
I can't believe this shit flies here.

------
zeethrow
Appalling.

~~~
zschallz
Why? Because you don't agree with what they do?

~~~
ukgent2
Because its all doublespeak, protect and serve, while attacking and
exploiting, just word games, trying to spin the NSA in to a good light. The
Defcon talk by the NSA head guy was pretty much the same, doublespeak all the
way. In the UK we have GHCQ trying to do the same things their advert was a
little more interactive <http://www.canyoucrackit.co.uk/>

