
How to keep someone with you forever - alfredp
http://issendai.livejournal.com/572510.html
======
smokinn
It's depressing how much of that matches up with personal experience.

My first job right out of school had points 1 through 9 covered. It was only
when I managed to get out that I realized I was right on the edge of a
burnout. After leaving I felt like a weight was lifted off of me and I could
breathe again. It felt like I had been holding my breath for months.

I was lucky because on top of 1 through 9 they also massively underpaid so
when someone else came along offering nearly twice as much for more
interesting work (which never materialized but that's another story) it was
easier to jump ship. 500-1000$ bonuses a few times a year will let you
massively underpay naive people for quite a long time.

\---

The one point that I've seen at _every single_ job I've ever had is a
combination of "Things will be better when..." and "Keep real rewards
distant.". The former is almost always used as a justification for reneging on
vague allusions to future bonuses, promotions, team or personal growth or
whatever.

I've grown cynical enough that anything promised (though it's rarely a
promise, it's usually more of a comforting insinuation) for more than a month
in the future I assume will never materialize. I'm almost always right.

~~~
JoeAltmaier
Sounds like a cynical old guy (I'm one of those). But probably, delayed
gratification is a sign of maturity not naivete.

So how to tell the difference between legitimate delayed reward, and smoke?
Trust I guess

~~~
joe_the_user
Hmm,

Actually, I think this kind of thing is more common now than twenty years ago.
Not it didn't exist but now the techniques have become more polished.

~~~
alttab
I'd say this has been around for thousands of years. Cults and religion have
these undertones built into their belief systems.

------
lsc
what, do people think about the ethics of a manager using the 'intermittent
rewards' part in the form of unpredictable bonuses over and above regular
salary (which would be regular) with the intent of harnessing the addictive
nature of intermittent rewards, without using the rest of these things (which
clearly cross the line into unethical.)

I'm considering implementing a bonus plan... and the question is, do I make
them predictable, based on measurable stuff that I share? or do I add some
randomness? do I assign them based on my own shifting perceptions? (the sort
of people I hire are going to be better at manipulating the set rules than
manipulating my perceptions... This is not true for all employees.)

Furthermore, would it still work if I used a predictable bonus schedule that
included some random input... e.g. the chance of getting the bonus is, say,
some metric based on increases in revenue or profit multiplied by a random
value between 0 an 1 or something?

~~~
loewenskind
Personally, I would avoid a bonus system entirely. The latest happiness study
I've seen showed that a bonus system is a net loss. The system existing sets
expectations, which means you have 3 possibilities: exceed, meet or don't meet
expectations. If you meet expectations then nothing changes, the employee got
what they expected. If you surpass expectations then the employee gets very
happy and works even harder! For about a week.

However, if you don't meet expectations then you cause disappointment,
resentment, etc. And if the employee is unhappy this can affect other
employees (poor attitudes are infectious). Disappointment is tricky and will
be made even worse by your proposed semi-random reward schedule [1].

Personally, I prefer the safer route of skipping any tit for tat scenarios
(e.g. "if you do X you _might_ get Y at some point in the future").

[1] With the semi-random schedule there is the additional risk that the
employee completed something they thought was a big deal, but you didn't or
didn't even know about it. Disappointment by not acting on something you
weren't aware of.

~~~
doki_pen
I think the bonus system can be very effective at preventing turn-over for the
better part of the year. If you just hang on a few more months you get that
big bonus!

~~~
loewenskind
It is good at lock in ("sheesh, I've been here for 8 months, I've only got 4
to go. If I leave I could be leaving $20k on the table"), especially since
bonus payouts are often months after hearing the number so you've already
began earning the next one before you get your current one paid.

The problem is, when you get that "big" bonus and it's not big then you can't
help but be disappointed. I recently saw a company lose about 5 key people at
one time because of the disappointment caused by this. Before bonus time those
people were happy with their job and even their pay. But they all got nice
bonus the year before.

In my estimation, that's 5 people they lost by a non-existent problem they
created themselves.

~~~
doki_pen
I call that doing it wrong. When you are hiring, you need to promote the bonus
as part of the salary, and make sure you pay most of it, even if tough times.
You can skip the raise, but don't skip the bonus. That is penny-wise, pound
foolish.

------
rbxbx
"If somebody is investing time, resources, and energy into convincing you of
your own worthlessness, that same somebody has revealed to you that they have
a lot to lose if you don’t believe them. They’re protecting their own loss of
power."

From related article: [http://www.fugitivus.net/2010/06/10/on-interpersonal-
badness...](http://www.fugitivus.net/2010/06/10/on-interpersonal-badness/)

------
cjlars
(un?)Suprisingly, his four rules of the 'sick system' lay out a pretty good
groundwork for social games and MMORPGs.

~~~
JoeAltmaier
Right. Name ONE "social game" that is really social - involves personal
interaction, trust, risking yourself for others. How many are creative, social
AND cooperative? How many could survive lifting the "no aggression rule" for
city centers without devolving into anarchy?

That term is the biggest double-speak of this decade - "Social Gaming"
operates on OCD/addictive personality snaring, pyramid schemes and plain
greed.

My last YC app was to try to reinvent this paradigm. Not convincing enought I
guess.

------
jfr
This sounds too much like life in academia as a post-graduate student. It hit
too close to home... too close.

~~~
greenlblue
Ha, same here buddy. What department were you in?

~~~
jfr
I'm still in it... I'm a Ph.D. candidate in Distributed Systems,
virtualization, Cloud Computing and so on.

Everything fits perfectly. I always wonder if I'm employing my time properly
in academia. But they keep me too busy to think about it deeper. Research also
keeps anyone tired, too much time dealing with the same problem, lacking some
fresh air once in a while to breathe. We are emotionally involved with the
work, loyalty and devotion and so on. Intermittent rewards when some of your
articles are accepted... And the real awards are distant, the Ph.D. itself.

~~~
greenlblue
Well I hope you make it and don't become like the academics surrounding you.

~~~
jfr
Thanks! I'm seriously thinking on finishing my Ph.D. and getting out of the
university. The university is full of huge egos (with very few exceptions),
and people are very hard to deal on a daily basis. There are hard people
everywhere (I've worked on the software industry before, I know them), but in
the university this is the rule. Also, as you predicted, I'm afraid I may
become like them.

~~~
arethuza
"I'm afraid I may become like them" was a big factor for me leaving academia -
I was starting to play all the silly games that drove me mad when I joined.

------
japherwocky
Also known as how to spot a dysfunctional work environment! Lots of good
advice in there, especially if you've never experienced cube-land first hand.

I wonder how many people are filing this under "useful but morally grey",
versus "i need to quit my job and fill out a YC app"?

~~~
kelnos
Cube-land?

This sounds like many startups, too.

~~~
smokinn
That's what I was thinking.

It sounds much more like startups to me than cubes. The emotional attachment,
the promotion of the lack of work/life boundaries, the deadlines or the
company dies and the world implodes, all features of startups, not really
cubes.

(They have their own massive set of dysfunctional features.)

~~~
rphlx
Nah, there are plenty of large tech companies that are run by sociopaths, with
bad work/life balance, etc. At least at a startup, there is a small chance
you'll get rich, or meet some productive people.

------
sz
It's even easier to do all of this to yourself.

------
wqfeng
I find my Chinese government is doing exactly what the article says.
Especially on Rule #1 and #2. Most of the Chinese people have to work hard for
20-30 years to pay the house debt. Chinese economic has grown at the speed of
10% for many years from the government report. It has to grow like this at
least another ten years. Or there will be a disaster. Workers will lose their
jobs. The bank will take back the houses. Then most of them will feel like
they get nothing in all their lives.

~~~
dLuna
How is this different from how it is in the west?

Work hard to pay off the house (or to save to buy a house), an economical
crisis that doesn't seem to end no matter the company profits. Etc...

------
keeptrying
I do agree that this does happen in large companies but its not done
intentionally by the founder of the company. Rather when your organisation
starts to grow it eventually succumbs to becoming this kind of system.

Sometimes the government will give you the perfect carrot-stick combo - the
green card! For the longest time I never understood why american citizens
would actually put up with the stuff I see going on in the office month to
month.

Also, even these systems are gameable because there is so much randomness that
with a little skill, you can get away with doing hardly any work and focussing
on your own priorities. Of course you have to trade in the possibility of
promotion etc but you'll get the occasional semi-big reward thats doled out to
everyone :) ...

------
lanstein
see also "The DENNIS System"

~~~
zmitri
Demonstrate Value

Engage Physically

Nurture Dependence

Neglect Emotionally

Inspire Hope

Separate Entirely

~~~
texel
Let us not forget the MAC system: Move in After Completion.

------
acqq
It reads as if my ex girlfriend wrote it, every single bit. :) I consider me
lucky to be here being able to write this.

~~~
lotusleaf1987
Or the CIA, explaining how to prevent a political revolution.

------
doki_pen
This is a great description of Narcissistic Personality Disorder. Although I
haven't seen something define the mechanics of the relationship so well. The
real question is, why would you want to keep people trapped in a failing
system? It has to do with the the aggressors own fears of inadequacy.

Also, if you find yourself a victim of this type of relationship, usually
there is something that you need to fix about yourself. Seek _good_
professional help. Otherwise you risk "escaping" into an identical situation.
A healthy person would probably run at the first signs.

------
Revisor
Honest question: Why does this article resonate so much and has over 200
upvotes as of now? Is this really such a wide-spread phenomenon?

Can't one detect such behaviour very fast and get out of the rollercoaster
before any damage is done?

~~~
JoeAltmaier
Cults can last for centuries, and ensnare millions.

------
greenlblue
That's how all governments work. Keep your citizens as disheveled as possible
and they won't know what hit them during election time.

------
paul
This is so good.

I'm sure if you just push yourself a little harder you can get past this
current crisis and everything will be ok.

------
code_duck
Weird, I know of a couple of web communities/businesses that work like this.
Some astute members have even noted that they work like a dysfunctional
relationship... here it is all laid out like a game plan.

------
joe_the_user
The other way to do this is being part of solid, established social system.

That's what kept employees, husbands and wives together in the US fifty years
ago or I'd imagine in Japan twenty years. It's not just that the situation
asks you to stay but that everything outside the immediate situation also asks
you to stay.

But I'd agree this is what will work in a climate of overwhelming atomization
and choice. Makes you really think...

------
malkia
Video Games Development is done exactly like that :)

------
shrikant
It's a bit spooky when an article/link you've read a while back turns up on
the front page of HN with quite some discussion around it.

Especially because the link is the _:visited_ colour, and you have to go there
just to confirm that what you'd read before remains the same :)

------
qwzybug
I think King Arthur had the last word on this.
<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z7ZUibOUX28>

He was the Joel Spolsky of the Middle Ages, I'm telling you.

~~~
arethuza
Nitpick: If there was a actual historical character who was anything like
"King Arthur" he lived a long time (probably about 600 years) before the first
accounts of him written in the Middle Ages.

~~~
JacobAldridge
A good nitpick. I'm definitely on the 'Arthur as fiction' side of the debate.
The first proper account of 'King Arthur' was from Geoffrey of Monmouth in the
first half of the twelfth century; historical details place that Arthur in the
late sixth century.

Ignoring the accuracy of a tale told more than five hundred years after the
event, if Arthur was real and such an important figure, why did the Venerable
Bede fail to mention Arthur at all during his remarkable (for the 'dark ages')
history of Britain in the ninth century? /nitpick

~~~
pigbucket
Bede's was not a history of a homogeneous socio-political people, and Arthur,
if he was any kind of early mediaeval king, was certainly not King of all
Britain. The island was politically fragmented. Record keeping was poor. The
very exceptionality of Bede's history would be one reason for its
incompleteness. And wikipedia, at the time, was notoriously unreliable.

~~~
JacobAldridge
True, but Bede's history was wide-ranging and made no mention of Arthur or any
other elements of his legend.

To the extent that Arthur could have been real, he likely would have been a
warrior-leader, rather than a king, fighting against the spreading Anglo-Saxon
invaders.

~~~
arethuza
Wasn't Bede very much on the side of the, ultimately largely victorious,
Anglo-Saxon invaders?

------
adammichaelc
This seems like pretty twisted advice if you ask me. Maybe the only redeeming
thing in the post is understanding power-hungry people so you don't fall for
their traps. Though that's a bit depressing because sometimes what you study
"to try to avoid" is what you become. <rant>As an example, some people study
all the bad crap going on in the world, and they do it all the time. They
study the power-brokers in high places doing shady deals. They look deeply
into conspiracies -- some of which are probably true. They look at the deep
and dark parts of the world; always justifying with things like, "if I don't
understand these things how can I be a part of the solution?" Sometimes they
get sucked in though to all the crap and they become some of the most
depressing, annoying people. While it's true that you need to understand the
dark parts of the system in order to fix them, it's important to remember
balance.</rant>

edit: I suppose the relationship version of my example is those who are afraid
to trust others and have happy relationships because they are focused on the
dark and scary things that have happened to them in the past by those who have
taken this post's advice and other similarly poor advice, or bad things that
they've heard have happened to others, etc. Reminds me of something attributed
to Shakespeare, “A coward dies a thousand deaths, a hero only one.” It's
almost always better to look at the bright side, because you will probably end
up having a few great relationships, than to look at the negative, and
definitely have none. Easier said than done....

~~~
rbxbx
I'm fairly certain you've read this with the incorrect tone.

While it is written as a how-to-abuse type guide, the tone clearly shows it to
be a how-to-avoid-abuse-and-recognize-it guide.

------
DanielBMarkham
Wonder how much of that just corresponds to being alive? Intermittent rewards,
keeping you busy, being tired, emotionally involved, crises occur --- perhaps
much of this is just a fact of life and not intentional on the part of others?
Yes, you can intentionally do this to people. But can't it also just be a
natural part of existence?

~~~
BrandonM
Have you considered that maybe you are stuck in a system that the author is
describing? "Intermittent rewards, keeping you busy, being tired, emotionally
involved, crises occur" is absolutely _not_ a description of life. It
describes some of my worst weeks, but I think I'd go insane if my life was
like that all the time.

~~~
Quiark
It depends on what is the cause of the crises. If it's one person or
organization, you have the situation described in the article. If it's just
all the things around you (your wife leaves you, your car breaks down, and so
on), all at the same time, then it's life, I guess.

------
b-man
I have posted this before in here, but it seems fitting to do it again in
here:

<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1200226>

------
jacquesm
That sounds exactly like what I wrote about in 'the start-up from hell the
other week'. Uncanny.

------
MichaelApproved
Seems like it would take a lot more energy to be manipulative than it would be
to excel at something.

~~~
amirmc
It only seems that way. Sometimes being manipulative is easier than trying to
excel (otherwise we'd see more people doing well

~~~
MichaelApproved
But in order to keep that person you have to make a chaotic environment. Who
wants to deliberately have crushing debt?

It's more like if you're already a loser, you can use some of that to your
advantage by dragging someone else down with you.

------
leeskye
Sounds like emotional slavery and a recipe for future prozac customers.

------
JoeAltmaier
Scary how similar to a cult the process runs.

------
ursablanco
sounds like democracy

------
fleitz
The advice is great on both fronts wish I read it about 10 years ago. Really
bad work places and a really bad relationship, it works even better when
you're doing both at the same time. Lesson learned, you can't save the world,
shitty people and shitty companies will always be so, the key is to move on
and surround yourself with great people both in business and in life.

It's really the same effect in both cases, they always threaten to fire you /
leave and when you say OK, they beg you to stay. The crazy part is how
effective it really is. I think the article really best describes sociopathic
behavior. At least it only really takes about a year to recover from it all.

<http://www.mcafee.cc/Bin/sb.html>

~~~
rbxbx
Wow. After reading the OP's article and your follow up link... gah.

This hits terribly close to home in my recent (though now past) life.

Glad to be (largely) free of that though, these days.

------
curtisspope
Apple. LOL

------
nuxi7
Duct tape works too.

------
chevas
Pray together. The rest will follow.

~~~
pjscott
Religiosity and marital satisfaction don't seem to have any statistically
significant correlation. This suggests that praying together probably won't do
what you expect it to, on average.

~~~
dualogy
Citation needed =)

