
Stripe: Alipay support - siddarthcs
https://stripe.com/blog/stripe-alipay
======
hunvreus
On a personal level, I'm very excited to know that I won't have to try and
integrate Alipay in any of our products anymore. It's nightmare to deal with,
even for our Chinese team.

But for Stripe, it's a huge step forward into tapping in a massive market.
Most Chinese people can't (or won't) use card to pay online; they simply have
Alipay connected to their bank account or use prepaid cards. Good move Stripe.

~~~
turingbook
Alipay API is that bad?

~~~
hunvreus
Let's just say it's not a pleasant experience, especially when you're used to
things like Stripe.

~~~
acmemonument
Have you found any documentation beyond what's linked to here
[http://stackoverflow.com/questions/7282133/alipay-
intergatio...](http://stackoverflow.com/questions/7282133/alipay-intergation)?

------
sabalaba
This is a huge deal. I'm currently in Shenzhen and Alipay (支付宝) is a common
and convenient way to make payments, on Taobao, in person, or otherwise.
Alipay is an interesting product in its own right, even if examined
independently of the Alibaba Group. It has a money market service, Yu'E Bao
(余额宝) that is currently a top 3 global money market fund with $89B AUM. That's
a taste of the scale of the market in China.

[http://www.slideshare.net/kleinerperkins/internet-
trends-201...](http://www.slideshare.net/kleinerperkins/internet-
trends-2014-05-28-14-pdf)

~~~
dikunlun
Same here, working in Shanghai, building a few products and we could not
really find an elegant way to integrate payment in those targeted to the
Chinese audience. Using Stripe for all of the payments is an awesome news!

------
saurik
A question which no one has asked yet: what are the fees? Alipay charges a
flat 3% while Stripe normally (for credit cards) charges 2.9%+$0.30. The
variable cost to Stripe from a credit card processor is (of course) lower than
2.9% (so Stripe has a margin), 3% is (clearly) not (the fixed $0.30 only
helping for small transactions). Will Stripe be charging more (variable, to
have a margin) and/or less (fixed, to pass on the lack of a fixed interchange
fee to customers) than its usual credit card processing fees when a customer
is using Alipay? (An answer may also shine some light on whether Alipay is
profit sharing with Stripe to get Stripe's support or if Stripe is being
forced to charge on top of Alipay to get access to their users.)

~~~
cristinacordova
(I work at Stripe)

The pricing for Alipay transactions is the same for credit/debit card
transactions: [https://stripe.com/pricing](https://stripe.com/pricing)

------
jqueryin
This is great news for those using Stripe Checkout. Are there any plans to
offer Alipay to Stripe customers who are utilizing the API for subscriptions,
invoicing, and recurred payments?

As an aside, we also get a load of client requests for PayPal as an
alternative simply because many people don't have a US-based credit card. If
you're making the moves to support global markets, it's tough to side step
them.

I really wish PayPal brought back their digital credit card which you could
preload with cash and use online like a real credit/debit card. It would solve
all of our problems with users who don't have a CC!

~~~
lachyg
(I work at Stripe.)

The Alipay integration with Checkout works just like Stripe.js, in that it
will return a token that you can charge instantly, or attach to a customer and
utilize for subscription, invoicing and recurring payments.

~~~
jqueryin
Thanks for the response. To narrow down the scope of my question a bit: Do you
have any plans to open up API endpoints that would afford us the privilege of
choosing a gateway on our own?

I'm asking because our checkout is completely devoid of Checkout or Stripe.js,
i.e. the "building the whole payment form" route you mention on the checkout
page:
[https://stripe.com/docs/tutorials/forms](https://stripe.com/docs/tutorials/forms).

~~~
lachyg
Are you asking if you can bring your own payment gateway for use with Stripe?
(Sorry, I was thrown off by the payment form tutorial reference.)

~~~
jqueryin
No, just whether or not you'd implement Alipay into your API in a manner that
would allow for us to handle the frontend UI ourselves (letting our users
chose between Alipay or credit card).

~~~
lachyg
We felt that Checkout was the best integration point because it let us do some
nice dynamic authentication logic instead of Alipay's usual redirect-based
flow. Given that subtleties involved, Alipay's constraints, and the fact that
it'll no doubt need to evolve in the future (as compared to the static
standardization of credit cards), I think it'd be pretty tough to expose it
via a straight API.

~~~
jqueryin
That makes sense. Given the fact Checkout simply returns a token, I think it's
safe to say that it can still work with existing backend API solutions in
conjunction with webhooks.

------
silverlight
If you guys would do this exact same thing for PayPal, I would be so happy.

~~~
pc
We'd be very happy to support PayPal in the same way. If any PayPal folks are
reading, I'm patrick@stripe.com :-).

~~~
bcx
How much permission do you need from paypal to do this?

I suppose the main barrier is how annoying their UI is? And your ability to
get a share of the interchange?

~~~
jqueryin
Tough to say. I know that Recurly has gone the approach of supporting any
number of gateways
([http://recurly.com/gateways/](http://recurly.com/gateways/)). Is there a
technical limitation of Stripe that doesn't allow for this?

~~~
abritishguy
The stripe API is incompatible with Paypal's, you can't make arbitrary charges
on paypal's API.

~~~
jqueryin
I was under the impression PayPal does allow charges with their Direct Payment
API (i.e. Payments Pro). Are you specifically referring to the fact you have
to be redirected to their site for login to do so?

[https://developer.paypal.com/docs/classic/paypal-payments-
pr...](https://developer.paypal.com/docs/classic/paypal-payments-
pro/integration-guide/WPGettingStarted/)

------
jhancock
three questions:

1 - Will you handle micropayments (i.e. not rake 30 cents on top of 3%)?
Alipay excels at this.

2 - Can some/all of the RMB sent to the Alipay account not get exchanged to
USD and auto transferred to the Stripe account holder's bank account? This is
a common use case to pay for China-side costs and not have RMB exchanged to
USD and exchanged back to RMB to pay partners/vendors.

3 - Will you have servers inside China? If you don't you will need some
incredibly fault-tolerant javascript and page load magic as some of your
interactions with non-China servers will fail.

------
Silhouette
This is a very interesting development, partly for being a useful feature for
some merchants in its own right, but perhaps also if it signals a more general
move from Stripe toward supporting a broader range of payment methods through
a unified API. That strategy seems to dovetail neatly with accepting payments
in multiple currencies, which was something else Stripe developed not so long
ago but isn't much use alone where the local conventional payment methods
don't involve credit cards.

------
PhilipA
Now we just need to see Stripe come to the other countries, which doesn't yet
have access to them (I have Denmark in mind).

~~~
stephenson
I have Denmark in mind too!

------
darvy
I wish there was a non-JS version of Stripe Checkout. Rather than throwing up
the modal window, I'd prefer to redirect my users to a Stripe hosted checkout
page where they can make payment and we can deal with it via webhooks. Similar
to how PayPal works really.

Currently I'm integrating with the API directly to do this but I'd have
preferred to use a page hosted by Stripe, especially considering they are
starting to open up to other payment methods.

~~~
mperham
Stripe defers to partners that handle the checkout process. One example that I
use personally is Plasso.

~~~
JohnTHaller
Which you have to pay another 3% on top of Stripe's fee.

------
SpacialSense
Alipay payments will all be nominated in Yuan (RMB). How does Stripe convert
this back to USD? The laws of converting currency in China are very
restrictive.

------
vcherubini
Wow this is awesome. I had to integrate Alipay into a checkout process in
~2010 and it was a complete nightmare - and not even as a result of the
language barrier. The API was just so so bad. Glad this is in Stripe now.

~~~
leetrout
Just did an integration in December- it looks like it has changed for the
better but the documentation is still in poor shape.

This is going to make things so much easier. I'm excited to try this since we
had to pay $1000USD to open an Alipay account.

------
alphadevx
Kudos to Stripe for adding this. Having working on an Alipay integration via
another provider, I know there is business demand for this.

------
jpalley
How does Stripe deal with the currency conversion? Is this tracked by Alipay
on an individual level (i.e. so consumers can't spend more then the legal
conversion amount of 50k USD)?

~~~
rahimnathwani
How is that annual 50k USD monitored/enforced now? If I have multiple bank
accounts, will I be prevented from withdrawing a combined 50k from overseas
ATMs?

~~~
linklet
It's connected with the citizen number and it's applied to personal _currency
exchange_ only.

I think you may ask for a higher limit but usually you just use family
accounts.

Paying with a multi-currency credit card has nothing to do with this limit.

~~~
rahimnathwani
So, the bank will report these currency exchanges (including overseas ATM
withdrawals from an RMB account) to some central authority like PBOC, who will
then combine it with info from other banks, and thereby know if I've breached
the annual limit?

~~~
linklet
There is an real-time system shared by all banks. I can see my remaining quota
immediately updated whenever I made an exchange.

In your example, if you have RMB in your China bank account and withdraw RMB
overseas, these are no currency exchanges at all. It's not relevant to the
$50k _exchange_ cap.

------
joedrew
As a Canadian, I'm most interested in when Stripe will start supporting our
Interac debit cards. At that point, from my point of view, it'll have taken
over the world. :)

~~~
avibryant
(I'm Canadian and work at Stripe)

How often do you actually buy things online with interac? I think I've maybe
done it once, and the redirect-to-the-bank flow is pretty awkward. My sense is
that this isn't ever a barrier to conversion for Canadians (except maybe for
very large purchases?), but I'd be curious to hear otherwise.

~~~
joedrew
I don't count as a user, since I am relatively affluent, tech-savvy, and
always pay off my credit card every month.

I'm thinking of the average person who buys with Interac to avoid debt, and
feels an impedance to buying online because of credit-card-only. I'd love to
have the ability to enable those people's purchases through Stripe.

(I agree that the bank-redirect flow is awkward slash awful. However, you
solved _exactly that problem_ with your Alipay integration! :) )

------
karsonenns
If we don't use stripe checkout, would there still be a way to integrate this
using the APIs?

~~~
pc
Not for now. Part of the reason Alipay was comfortable with this new flow is
because it's served as part of Checkout. If we were to provide Checkout-less
APIs, we'd probably have to go back to the old redirect model, which (among
other things) just doesn't work well on mobile. I expect we'll always offer
APIs for "standardized" instruments, though (ACH, Bitcoin, cards, etc.).

~~~
Silhouette
Just to be clear, are you saying that this new payment method will only be
supported (at least for now) for those with a checkout.js integration, not
those using stripe.js and their own front-end/branding?

Obvious feature request #1: Support it via stripe.js and the usual APIs as
soon as possible.

Obvious feature request #2: In the meantime, provide a version of checkout.js
that is (a) stable and (b) simplified to support Alipay only (so those of us
who prefer to accept other payment methods can still do so via stripe.js
without winding up with multiple confusing options and bad UX).

~~~
avibryant
(I work at Stripe)

Can you say more about "(a) stable"? If you mean that you've had problems with
robustness or availability, I'd love to hear about that, because in general we
believe it's been very good on those fronts.

If you mean that it the UI changes from time to time, then (for better or
worse), that's a fundamental property of Checkout: we are continually
iterating and optimizing and adding new features (like Alipay!). We do
understand that it's not for everyone, but a lot of people use it for exactly
that reason.

~~~
avibryant
Sorry, I didn't actually answer your initial question: yes, Alipay is only
available through a checkout.js integration, not a stripe.js integration. I
think it's unlikely that we will do a stripe.js integration for Alipay - as
Patrick mentioned above, it would probably have to be a redirect model like
Alipay's other integrations.

However, it's possible that we could do a special alipay.js, which I think is
what you're getting at with #2. This wouldn't be Stripe Checkout, exactly, but
a standalone Alipay product where we provide the UI is certainly something
we'd think about down the line. We don't have any specific plans here but feel
free to email me at avi@stripe.com if you want to talk more about that.

~~~
Silhouette
Thanks for the replies.

By stable, I meant something that doesn't have the unpredictable UI variations
of checkout.js, which for some of us is a significant concern. (See various
previous HN discussions about Stripe, particularly around the time the phone
number/remember me changes came in.)

When there was always the alternative of using stripe.js (as also repeatedly
mentioned in previous HN discussions) this wasn't a huge deal, because anyone
who wanted stability could just go the other path. I think some of the
concerns before were more about how many of us didn't realise that Stripe sees
checkout.js as an ever-evolving test bed.

If that no longer applies then there is now a need to choose between
instability with checkout.js and losing features with stripe.js. When I first
joined this discussion today, I was happy at the idea of Stripe starting to
support a broader range of payment options. As I'm reading more, my joy is
turning to concern that checkout.js is becoming the preferred integration
method with significant downsides for those who don't comply.

I do understand that there may be good reasons for locking in your choice of
payment UI. On the other hand, this is not the first time I've dealt with a
payment service where you can't cleanly integrate the whole process into your
own brand/UX, and interrupting that flow rarely turns out happily for
conversion rates or, sometimes, brand reputation.

With that in mind, if proper support isn't available for Alipay, then some
sort of alipay.js as you mentioned would certainly be welcome, particularly if
it allows at least basic styling customisation to match the colour scheme and
typography of the merchant's site.

~~~
avibryant
Thanks very much for the feedback. (Feedback helps! As you may remember from
the previous thread, we did change the Remember Me + phone number fields to be
optional, in large part because of the feedback we got on HN.)

Each new payment method comes with its own constraints. We'll always try to
give our users as many options as possible while working within those
constraints. The constraints with Alipay are particularly tight, and for now
the only way we can satisfy them is through checkout.js - but over time, if we
can relax that, we will. We're definitely not moving to a model where Checkout
is always the first or only way to integrate a new feature. For example, the
two other alternative payment methods we have in beta right now are ACH and
Bitcoin, neither of which are built into Checkout. We do hope to eventually
support both of these in Checkout, of course, but in those cases, it was
easiest to do the API first; in the Alipay case, it was by far the easiest
thing to do Checkout first.

~~~
Silhouette
_(Feedback helps! As you may remember from the previous thread, we did change
the Remember Me + phone number fields to be optional, in large part because of
the feedback we got on HN.)_

That's good to know. FWIW, I hadn't heard anything about that change, which
would have been of immediate interest to at least one team I worked on that
was still relying on checkout.js at the time.

 _Each new payment method comes with its own constraints. We 'll always try to
give our users as many options as possible while working within those
constraints. The constraints with Alipay are particularly tight, and for now
the only way we can satisfy them is through checkout.js - but over time, if we
can relax that, we will._

Understood, and thanks again for taking the time to explain.

------
pastaking
This is awesome!

PS author misspelled the link to Stripe Checkout
[https://stripe.com/chekcout](https://stripe.com/chekcout) (missing a c)

~~~
siddarthcs
Oops, thanks for the heads-up: fixing! :)

------
mattste
I'm curious what method they use for identifying the buyers as Chinese.

~~~
iLoch
They turn on the webcam and look into their soul. Or IP address + locale
information like everyone else.

~~~
wootest
That's not an exclusive or.

------
taigeair
What do you think about Amazon Payments? How come people don't use it?

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rubycodesearch
When would Stripe support withdraw to China then? It's the only reason that
I'm still using PayPal.

------
ars
Are there any companies that support sending money to other countries? Not
just receiving it?

------
davecyen
Will you be allowing marketplaces to transfer money to sellers' Alipay
accounts?

