
Pakistani family of drone strike victim gives harrowing testimony to Congress - labinder
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/oct/29/pakistan-family-drone-victim-testimony-congress
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r0h1n
This is also the reason the US is lobbying aggressively to ensure its soldiers
have immunity from war crimes.

WikiLeaks shows US pressure for war crimes immunity -
[https://www.greenleft.org.au/node/55239](https://www.greenleft.org.au/node/55239)

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peterkelly
Can someone explain to me why this isn't classed as terrorism or murder when
it's done by the US military?

~~~
jasonlotito
Because the intent isn't to terrorize or murder innocent people, but to hit
"military" targets. It's akin to dropping bombs on military targets during WW
II. Just because they are military targets doesn't mean innocent people aren't
killed. So it's classified as something else. And before you go shooting the
messenger, keep in mind your asking about classification. If you want to
disagree and suggest that it's still murder, feel free to argue endlessly with
others. But it's important to realize what you are then suggesting, and the
ramifications.

War sucks. Innocent die.

Cue the pedantic replies.

~~~
dobbsbob
Actually, the intent is to terrorize. You are utilizing systematic violence to
coerce an entire population for political reasons, and deliberately targeting
or disregarding the safety of non-combatants to achieve this goal.

There also isn't a war in Waziristan. Your comparison to WWII is total BS

~~~
res0nat0r
Sorry but targeted drone strikes are the exact opposite of terrorism. If the
US wanted to terrorize we could carpet bomb cities much quicker and cheaper
than with drone strikes.

I 100% agree that accidental killing of unintended targets is terrorizing the
native population of countries where this happens, and also leads to creating
more terrorists/enemies of the US than it possibly eliminates.

Jeremy Scahill wrote a ~700 page book about this very subject that came out a
few months ago. Dirty Wars. It is worth reading.

~~~
kubiiii
Not sure that "complete opposite" is the right term here. Drones prevent
people to like sunny days, to go to school (and learn something else than
becoming terrorists).

Completely agree with the second part of your comment though. But accidental
killing of unintended targets should at least : -be something the US apologize
for, if possible directly to families, if possible by the highest rank
official. -be compensated even if money doesn't heal wounds like that. If
there are no consequences (both political and financial) to those strikes,
targeting errors will never be a big deal.

~~~
res0nat0r
Drones are being used because it causes less unintended collateral damage than
a bomb from a F-14. Never any collateral damage? No. Less? Yes.

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RealGeek
Middle east countries hate United States due to reckless behavior like this.
US kills thousands of civilians overseas and they do the same to US in form of
terrorist attacks.

With these senseless attacks, US is spreading hate and putting US citizens at
risk.

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allochthon
My fear about this particular case is that there was a drone operator who did
this out of boredom or fatigue, and then there was a coverup.

~~~
rurounijones
Disclaimer: I am a gamer.

Putting 21 year old kids* brought up on video-games (esp the "Call of Duty"
and "Battlefield" crop) all their lives in charge of drones with very video-
game like setup and interactions sounds like a pretty good recipe for
disaster[1].

* Yes, I know they are not all that young but I have seen photos in the news and I would be surprised if they were any older.

[1] "Scenario fulfillment" implicated in
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_Air_Flight_655](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_Air_Flight_655)

~~~
vowelless
> very video-game like setup and interactions sounds like a pretty good recipe
> for disaster[1].

The Iran Air disaster had nothing to do with "video games" and "21 year old
kids". It was a case of mistaken identity during a very turbulent time in the
region. I think it is a red herring to refer to that disaster when talking
about drone strikes.

~~~
rurounijones
I only referred to the the Iran Air disaster because "Scenario fulfillment"
was implicated as playing a part in the problem.

Being trained in various scenarios combined with a high-stress situation
resulted in one of the crew misinterpreting the data and claiming the plane
was diving (like an attack run) instead of climbing (which it was really
doing)

Basically it is scientific way of saying something like "force of habit" (with
more to it, that is a bit of a dumbed-down view)

Which I can easily see transferring to drone pilots raised on a diet of CoD,
Battlefield etc.

(There is a very good documentary about the entire Iran Air thing which talks
about it, you can see it on youtube.)

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srean
My comment here will sound emotionally tone deaf and heartlessly
opportunistic. Let there be no mistake I consider these operations that kill
innocent Pakistanis despicable and illegal.

At the same time I wish the political class that shaped the history of
Pakistan take a tough and straight look at themselves and the role their
decisions (in particular unfettered encouragement of Jihadism and building
this identity of "wronged population of righteous Muslims") played in dragging
their country to such a pathetic state where their sovereignty doesn't mean
shit. A state when one of their erstwhile allies kill their citizens with
impunity and political class doesn't do much about it apart from some token
grandstanding. Much as I want this navel gazing to happen, I am also aware
that ruling political classes of countries are typically so sociopathic that
they are incapable of feeling responsible, a fact made very convenient now
that there is mean old US to point to.

India managed to avoid this trajectory. Rather than patting ourselves on the
back, I am acutely aware of how close a shave it was and still is. There are
strong political forces in India that want to make it a Hindu hegemony. Their
tools of propaganda are just the same and quite effective, the same "wronged
population of righteous Hindus that meant and did nobody any harm". If that
happens we wont be that far away from a Hindu version of current Pakistan.
This thought terrifies me.

@einhverfr I am replying here because I strongly suspect that what I say will
touch many a nerve and will lead to a long thread hijacking the original post,
and by that I dont mean you personally. Please feel free to respond in the
same way. Encouraging the wronged muslim identity and consequent Jihadism was
very much an "in center" phenomena in Pakistan rather than the machinations of
some fringe local state. Note the use of 'was' these things go back several
decades in history. I think Pakistan under Jinnah would have fared much better
had he lived longer.

@r0h1n spot on.

@mcantelon sure they did, a valid question is what did people in charge then
do about it.

@prometheuspk India escaped and does, but just barely. It's a complicated
mess, there are political parties that exploit the fact that many in India
want to avoid the religious hegemony. These parties have been getting away
with things that they should not be allowed to get away with. This fuels its
own blowback...You mention Malala. Malala for US is I think convenient PR
fodder, something useful to screen/decorate their drone program with. I dont
even think they do it conciously. Everyone wants to see themselves as
compassionate and fair.

@zzsleepzz thank you for illustrating my point.

Heh! there you go. downvotes start rolling in, did not expect any different
though.

Interesting, the story suddenly drops out from first page inspite of 90
upvotes in less than 3 hrs. Seems it just got flagged. That I did not see
coming.

~~~
zzsleepzz
@srean,

There's no such thing as Hindu extremism or Hindu terrorism. It's just a
reaction to atrocious Islamic terrorism activities that happened/happening in
India. The increase of jihadi extremists and sleeper cells in India are what
that terrifies Indians.

~~~
bruceb
@zzsleepzz The RSS seem extreme to me and to a lot of Indians who fear voting
for Modi because they may come with him. (not saying this is the case but that
is the fear).

~~~
snambi
It is not true. The current congress govt is very corrupt. BJP is a lot less
corrupt. So, the congress spreads this propaganda that modi will create
problems for minorities.

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ganeshmr
all this after the person authorizing these has be awarded Nobel Peace Prize.
Not respecting integrity of country and striking it at will because one can,
is recipe for disaster. May be they wont strike back now but not many forget
these things.

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malandrew

         It argues its campaign is conducted "consistent with all 
         applicable domestic and international law". Unofficial 
         reports, however, have suggested that hundreds have been  
         killed in Pakistan alone, with up to 200 children killed.
    

So how exactly are drone strikes in countries we are not at war with
"consistent with all applicable domestic and international law". I imagine
that it should at least be considered murder according to Pakistani law (and
other countries where these strikes take place) and that it would be within
the rights of these countries to demand extradition of the individuals
complicit in the crime so that can stand trial in Pakistan (and other
countries). The US obviously won't acquiesce to extradition requests for the
crime of murder that it considers legitimate, but that doesn't mean that those
committing crimes cannot be arrested while traveling abroad to countries that
do have extradition treaties with Pakistan and other countries in question.

What international laws allow this to continue?

If I were a citizen of a country where these remote drone attacks were taking
place and no war has been declared, I would be campaigning to put every person
directly responsible on the list of criminals wanted internationally and have
them arrested by my allies if those criminals travel to my allies' country.

I would be far more comfortable with what is going on if there were a
requirement that all drone operators had to be citizens of the countries being
targeted. They can be supervised and trained by Americans, but the trigger
must be pulled by a fellow countryman. If we can't find people to do that,
then we need to cease what we are doing or formally declare war via a
Congressional vote. Alternatively, we could request or even fund that Pakistan
and other countries send in police to arrest those responsible with a drone on
standby and only send in the drone if the person refuses to be arrested
peacefully. The moment they fire back on the Pakistani police with weapons,
the drone would be sent in to resolve the conflict. Either way, fellow
citizens of those targeted should be directly involved in these attacks or
they should not occur at all. Sentencing people to death without trial is un-
American.

What happens when we've killed as many innocents as were killed on September
11th on US soil? Death of innocents from above is simply unjustified.

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bruceb
Make sure the nuclear weapons don't fall in to radical hands. Then clear out
of other parts of the country.

It is not our country. Let them rail against America without us pouring gas on
the flames by us being there.

I will go back to more startup related comments.

