
The Self(ie) Generation - uladzislau
http://nytimes.com/2014/03/08/opinion/blow-the-self-ie-generation.html?from=mostemailed
======
nl
"Our youth now love luxury. They have bad manners, contempt for authority;
they show disrespect for their elders and love chatter in place of exercise;
they no longer rise when elders enter the room; they contradict their parents,
chatter before company; gobble up their food and tyrannize their teachers."

\-- Socrates

~~~
mappum
Socrates was just pretty conservative, he was also against the idea of
writing:

" ...this discovery of yours will create forgetfulness in the learners’ souls,
because they will not use their memories; they will trust to the external
written characters and not remember of themselves. The specific which you have
discovered is an aid not to memory, but to reminiscence, and you give your
disciples not truth, but only the semblance of truth; they will be hearers of
many things and will have learned nothing; they will appear to be omniscient
and will generally know nothing; they will be tiresome company, having the
show of wisdom without the reality."

~~~
neuralk
In some sense, he is right.

With writing, people did not develop memories as powerful as they did when
traditions were oral -- there was no need. How many people can recite epic
poems or plays from memory, let alone the Odyssey? Extremely few could these
days, relatively few could 1000 years ago, and many more could 2000+ years
ago. And you can bet that those who developed powerful memories in the time of
Socrates would be among the most wise and cultured, so his complaint is not an
unreasonable one to make. Besides, Socrates was perennially the devil's
advocate and its not impossible if you had caught him on a different day he
would've argued the opposite case.

Taking it further, his quote applies equally to the advent of the internet,
especially search engines. Many people outsource their memory to Google --
they will even look up things on their phone in the middle of a conversation
because they've forgotten its name.

~~~
hifigi
In the words of Henry Jones Sr. "I wrote it down so I wouldn't _have_ to
remember."

Rote memory is fallible, fleeting and failing (in that order). Memorizing epic
poetry is a noble cause, but even Plato would prefer to use those mental
resources for applications more pertinent to a greater understanding of our
physical reality. This sentiment accounts for the rapid transition to
physically-recorded data, which everyone seems to agree was a general step in
the right direction.

------
ketralnis
The Times and friends seem to write a whole lot of "kids these days" articles
about the so-called Millennials. Usually about how self-centred or lazy or
entitled they are but sometimes as lazy as "they use the internet more" and
"they take a lot of selfies and make so many twitters".

Does every generation do this about its youngers? I've only lived through a
few "named" generations but I feel like I didn't see nearly this much
judgemental coverage about other ones. I know every generation thinks that
they're the best and the others are all just old fogeys or youngin twerps but
most editoral outlets don't seem to cover much else lately.

~~~
vinceguidry
> Does every generation do this about its youngers?

This sort of journalistic sophistry has been popular since the end of World
War Two and catered to the need for the Baby Boomers (the only group to which
this sort of generalization can really be accurate) to justify their feelings
of self-importance, as they knew they couldn't match the heroics of their
warrior parentage. If you think this is bad, you should have seen what they
wrote about Gen X.

Nobody but the Boomers really gives a shit about it, and once they're all
gone, I predict this naming-and-shaming nonsense will go with them.

~~~
devindotcom
I really don't think so. Being perplexed/disgusted by the iniquities of the
younger generation has been going on for a long time and will in all
likelihood continue. I do agree that there's a lot of boomer-focused "get off
my lawn" stuff in the NYT, though. That's their audience.

~~~
vinceguidry
> Being perplexed/disgusted by the iniquities of the younger generation has
> been going on for a long time

Well, sure, but there's a difference between the normal run-of-the-mill "kids
think they invented sex"-type bitching and this naming-of-the-generations
claptrap. Google up some of the old articles, they're the height of verbose,
narcissistic inanity. It took a special kind of self-involvement to generate
this crap.

------
victoro
I don't see why the majority of HN commenters assume that the article has a
negative bent. All he did was list the results of the PEW study and briefly
discuss political ramifications for the two major US parties. The only fault I
can find with this article is the completely erroneous last sentence (and
title) which mentions the "selfie" \-- this just seems to be a bit of link
bait as selfies are a seemingly hot topic lately. Otherwise, I think this is a
pretty interesting summary of survey results and downright neutral compared to
the vast sea of curmudgeonly articles about Millenials floating around these
days.

------
interstitial
As the Millennials gather in self-pity on HN. I just throw in I try to avoid
hiring Millenials at all cost. They are so full of self-worth, they have
nothing to prove - ever. Will bail when any project gets tough, believe they
are entitled to all privileges earned after 30 minutes on a job. Worse, you
might have to talk to their parents on the phone about their poor job review.

~~~
msandford
I'm over 30 so probably not a millenial.

Honestly whose fault is is that millenials are so shitty? It's not the
millenial's fault that their parents raised them horribly, didn't ever let
them fail (for fear of ruining their future!) and obsessively planned any and
all aspects of their lives.

When did the "everyone should have lots of self-esteem because we're all
unique snowflakes!" movement get started? If you take the year that really got
going and add 10-20 to the number, does that roughly approximate the point at
which you started to realize that these kids are all worthless?

Of course that generalization that I've made of the parents and education of
millenials isn't entirely true; I'm sure plenty of them had perfectly decent
parents. But if we're going to make generalizations let's talk about both
sides of it. Kids don't really grow up in a vacuum.

~~~
argumentum
According to the article, you probably are included:

> _defined by Pew as Americans ages 18 to 33_

~~~
msandford
Okay, let's go!

"Generation X, commonly abbreviated to Gen X, is the generation born after the
Western Post–World War II baby boom. Demographers, historians and commentators
use beginning birth dates from the early 1960s to the early 1980s."

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generation_X](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generation_X)

"Millennials, or the Millennial Generation,[1] also known as Generation Y, are
the demographic cohort following Generation X. There are no precise dates when
the generation starts and ends. Commentators use beginning birth years from
the early 1980s to the early 2000s."

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Millennials](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Millennials)

"Generation Z is one name used for the cohort of people born after the
Millennial Generation. There is no agreement on the exact dates of the
generation with some sources starting it at the mid or late 1990s [1] or from
the mid 2000s [2] to the present day. This is the generation that is currently
being born."

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generation_Z](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generation_Z)

Alright so what have we learned?

Gen X: early 1960s to early 1980s

Gen Y: early 1980s to early 2000s

Gen Z: mid 1990s/early 2000s to today and further

You can't really have a clear start and end date to broad generalizations
because the nature of a generalization prevents it.

~~~
argumentum
I agree, I just was relaying what was stated in the article (1981 to 2000
birth years).

When I hear "millennial generation", I think not of birth year, but rather of
the set of people who _grew up_ along with what we now refer to as the
"technology industry".

We tend to take for granted nowadays that next year is going to be
phenomenally different than this year, in terms of the tools that we use to
communicate, have fun and get things done.

For "millennials", this is very easy to comprehend, because our whole lives
are constructed around this constant change. I think it's much harder for
people even slightly older (or later exposed to tech).

------
bridger
"...numbers that are at or near the highest levels of political and religious
disaffiliation recorded for any generation in the last quarter-century."
Seriously. How many generations are in a 25-year span?

~~~
kepano
I believe that segment refers to all generations alive today, not generations
born in the last 25 years.

~~~
dlhavema
that's how i read it too, that "my people" are the most disassociated of all
the current generational groups of people.

------
mattholtom
He noticed that "self" is the root of "selfie"... Deep insight here folks.

------
zacinbusiness
Generalizations are annoying. Not sure which "gen" I am (was born in mid 80's)
I have dealt with it from family quite a bit and so has my wife. Saying we
stayed in school rather than get "real jobs" (we each have masters degrees and
she's a full time professor and I work as a full time business consultant).
And that we don't understand "hard work" (she easily works 80 hours a week
counting time in and out of the classroom and meetings and I regularly work
until dawn). It's understandable as that's just sort of how people react to
young people, but it is tiring.

------
NextUserName
They [Young People] have exalted notions, because they have not been humbled
by life or learned its necessary limitations; moreover, their hopeful
disposition makes them think themselves equal to great things -- and that
means having exalted notions. They would always rather do noble deeds than
useful ones: Their lives are regulated more by moral feeling than by reasoning
-- all their mistakes are in the direction of doing things excessively and
vehemently. They overdo everything -- they love too much, hate too much, and
the same with everything else. (Aristotle)

"The world is passing through troublous times. The young people of today think
of nothing but themselves. They have no reverence for parents or old age. They
are impatient of all restraint. They talk as if they knew everything, and what
passes for wisdom with us is foolishness with them. As for the girls, they are
forward, immodest and unladylike in speech, behavior and dress." (From a
sermon preached by Peter the Hermit in A.D. 1274)

"I see no hope for the future of our people if they are dependent on frivolous
youth of today, for certainly all youth are reckless beyond words... When I
was young, we were taught to be discreet and respectful of elders, but the
present youth are exceedingly wise [disrespectful] and impatient of
restraint". (Hesiod, 8th century BC)

"I believe what really happens in history is this: the old man is always
wrong; and the young people are always wrong about what is wrong with him. The
practical form it takes is this: that, while the old man may stand by some
stupid custom, the young man always attacks it with some theory that turns out
to be equally stupid." (G.K. Chesterton)

Socrates 'The children now love luxury; they show disrespect for elders and
love chatter in place of exercise. Children are tyrants, not servants of the
households. They no longer rise when their elders enter the room. They
contradict their parents, chatter before company, gobble up dainties at the
table, cross their legs, and tyrannize over their teachers.' (Commonly
attributed to SOCRATES by Plato)

[http://proto-knowledge.blogspot.com/2010/11/what-is-wrong-
wi...](http://proto-knowledge.blogspot.com/2010/11/what-is-wrong-with-young-
people-today.html)

~~~
waps
To be fair, you can find the reverse as well : elders complaining their youth
is too pious, too restrained, or won't touch alcohol (popular in the late
Roman empire). Moreover you can also find large populations moving from
atheism/disbelief to religion.

