
Jeff Bezos Says Amazon Won’t Tolerate ‘Callous’ Management Practices - ennuihenry
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/08/18/technology/amazon-bezos-workplace-management-practices.html
======
rdtsc
> But if you know of any stories like those reported, I want you to escalate
> to HR. You can also email me directly at jeff@amazon.com. Even if it’s rare
> or isolated, our tolerance for any such lack of empathy needs to be zero.

I say don't escalate to HR but leave to work at another place. HR is not your
advocate, it is not there to help you. You are just a "resource" just like it
says in the name.

There have been many cases I've heard (personally and from HN comments) where
someone would go to HR, complain about harassment by their manager, get
assurance of confidentiality, and the next thing you know the manager is told
right away. Or the person who complained gets punished instead.

Now you can try to go public and force its hand to basically realign HR's
interest (protect the company) with yours (you get heard and the problem is
fixed). But that won't be forgotten in the long term.

~~~
degradas
There is book a called Corporate Confidential [1], written by a former HR
person. One of most significant ideas there is that HR is (from the
perspective of an employee) not your friend, but rather an enemy. They exist
to protect the company, not you. Basically, going to HR is a quick way to get
fired (for legal reasons, mind you) or kill your career.

Whole book is highly depressing, but very useful if you want to try to climb
up the ladder.

[1] [http://www.amazon.com/Corporate-Confidential-Secrets-
Company...](http://www.amazon.com/Corporate-Confidential-Secrets-Company-
Know/dp/0312337361)

~~~
cperciva
_They exist to protect the company, not you._

Sure, but that doesn't mean that they can't be on your side. If you report
that your boss is doing something which is against company policy and hurts
the company, it's quite possible for HR to be simultaneously on your side and
on the company's side.

~~~
abandonliberty
Yes - but be careful about the equation, it's something like this:

(Your value + cost of incident - squeaky wheel cost) vs (manager's value)

The incident has to be fairly egregious to tip the scales in your favor, and
the squeaky wheel cost can follow you.

~~~
rdtsc
That is why a last alternative is to suggest you might go public, it forces
their hand because now "cost of incident" can be rather high. As it is PR
damage all across the board for the company. Of course, it might fix things in
the short term but it won't be forgotten in the long term.

~~~
greenyoda
I don't think that an unknown Amazon employee going public could add much to
the damage that the current media coverage has already inflicted. HR would
probably just shrug it off. Also, taking a dispute with your employer public
might cause other companies to think twice about hiring you in the future
(your publicity will show up if they Google you). If you're down to your last
alternative, it's probably time to find a new job.

~~~
rdtsc
It is hard to say. HN makes the development world pretty small. It is like a
smaller provincial town where everyone kind of can find out stuff even if they
don't know you personally. Damaging the image of a tech company on HN could be
serious, it could impact ability to hire in the future.

But you are right, it is the nuclear option. After that even if problem is
solved immediately, a stab in the back in the future is expected.

As for future employability, you are right as well. However, I can see a small
start-up actually seeking out self-reliant people who have a sense of justice
doing what is right. So the quality could also be appealing.

------
seibelj
I've been reading various comments about this around the internet and many
people are saying they will stop ordering from Amazon because of it.

These white collar workers are highly paid, and not forced to be there. Most
of them could easily find another job someplace else (and it sounds like many
do). I just can't feel bad for them. If you don't want to work throughout your
vacation, go find another job that won't make you work through your vacation.
This isn't North Korea, Bezos isn't going to throw you in a reeducation camp.

I will keep ordering from Amazon because they provide the best service. Simple
as that.

~~~
zamalek
I'm not advocating or rejecting the Amazon boycott, simply here to challenge
the way you think: while everything you said is logical you can't simply treat
people like trash, it doesn't matter if they are white collar, gold collar or
can't-afford-a-collar.

A situation that shares many similarities is: "it is that woman's fault that
she does not leave her abusive husband." That is laying blame on the person
who was abused (not matter their background) instead of the person dealing out
the injustice.

Imagine that Bezos had not disowned this behavior: more and more would follow
suit and eventually you'd be hard-pressed to find a place where this isn't the
norm. For example: stack ranking had to start _somewhere._ Now you'll find it
at many places and it's no longer as simple as "just go work somewhere else."
If you've acquired a lifestyle where you depend on a corporate job with a
cushy salary, what are you going to do?

Don't forget that people can (and do) undervalue themselves. Maybe they don't
believe that they could find another job: possibly because their manager has
completely destroyed their self-worth.

Finally, it's just fucking stupid. It's actually counter-productive. It's been
shown over and over again (one example[1]) that the way you get better results
out of humans is to treat them humanely and, _unbelievably_ , make them _want_
to work for you instead of work for you out of fear. Practices like this,
stack ranking, etc. all originate out of the industrial age when machines were
the primary concern - you can't manage humans like machines: they will revolt
(consciously or subconsciously).

[1]:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6XAPnuFjJc](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6XAPnuFjJc)

~~~
XorNot
Even if you haven't acquired a lifestyle. It's not like things get better when
management adopts some new terrible practice for non-salaried employees. By
and large they live day to day stack-ranking all sorts of far more abusive BS.

------
tajen
Jeff Bezos encourages employees a "careful read" of the NYT article and the
read of "a very different take by a current Amazonian" on LinkedIn.

What I see is a company with a big PR department who hasn't succeeded to spin
positive stories about their HR in newspapers. We'll see in the next months
whether they prop up their game.

Besides, if you face a difficulty with your work environment, don't talk to
HR™. They are paid to exclude any PR hazard from the company.

NB: Moderator/dang, please merge with
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10072753](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10072753)

------
joesmo
Sounds like Bezos is just doing damage control. The original article is
somewhat interesting but hardly novel. I've never talked to a single person
who worked at Amazon who had anything positive to say. You have recruiters
recruiting for Amazon who are basically saying, "Do not work there." They are
being paid on commission to get you to work there and they're telling you what
a horrible place to work it is, killing any chance of moving forward. I find
that quite telling of what kind of place Amazon is.

~~~
adventured
And yet Amazon (3.4) rates comparable on Glassdoor to many other important
technology companies, including: Oracle (3.3), Yahoo (3.5), HP (3.3), IBM
(3.1), eBay (3.5), Tesla (3.4), Dell (3.4), Cisco (3.7).

That's with 5,800+ reviews. Something doesn't add up.

~~~
drzaiusapelord
How reliable is glassdoor as a metric? Personally, I would never, ever post
anything negative there due to the fear of retaliation. I suspect truly bad
companies never get their comeuppance because at the end of the day, you need
some kind of reference and positive job history from your previous employer.
It may not be that hard to trace a review to a specific employee due to
timing, title, salary, etc information.

~~~
DaveWalk
According to the dozen seasoned job-hunters and recruiters that I know,
Glassdoor is absolutely rotten in my industry (biotech). The selection bias is
heavy-handed at best. Even Amazon's 5,000+ reviews represent a very small
fraction of it's employees globally. These are futher selected as the kind who
would review a job online pseudoanomyously.

Furthermore, one doesn't know the age of a review -- is this a current
employee, a previous one who left last week or a review of a the job from 10
years ago? It's entirely possible that every problem addressed in a negative
review has been since addressed. You just don't know.

------
wpietri
For years I've had an academic interest in alternative religions. (As an
atheist, I find them endlessly fascinating, as it lets you see more of how the
dominant religions came to be.) One of those most interesting things I've come
across related to that was the ABCDEF:

[http://www.neopagan.net/ABCDEF.html](http://www.neopagan.net/ABCDEF.html)

It was put together decades ago by a pagan who wanted to help people see the
difference between people who were up to something new and actually dangerous
cults.

The NYT article made me haul it out again and do some scoring, and then run
through and score a number of the tech companies I'm familiar with. It was a
very interesting exercise.

~~~
MCRed
When I worked at Amazon I felt it was very cultish. "Today is day one!" and
the BS like door desks (which cost more than actual desks but give the "we're
a startup!" mentality boost.)

Looking on your list a surprising number of factors are much higher for amazon
than for other, better jobs I've seen.

It is very much a cult. Microsoft had a bit of cultism in the 1990s (Billg was
infallible, etc.) and another company I've worked for since tried to be a
cult...

------
rm_-rf_slash
This kind of thing reminded me of when Eric Schmidt justified Google's
reputationally low pay by saying "people don't work at Google for the money,
they do it to change the world!"

Of course, Google's stock made him a billionaire.

To me this problem seems to root itself in the absurdity of equity
percentages. How is it one who comes to the company a year after founding can
work the same 10-12 hour days as a founder and yet see maybe 1% in options
they have to pay for while founders expect 15% and up for being there at the
beginning? Seems all right when the company is young and the risk is high, but
what ends up happening is that the fresh blood 10,20 years on has to fight for
scraps while the now-wealthy founders can enjoy their work knowing they could
quit tomorrow and never have to lift a finger again.

White collar Walmart could pay its employees squarely to compensate for their
mental health and social lives, but they act almost allergic to profits as
long as they can continue stock offerings to keep prices at a minimum.

------
outside1234
And like clockwork, there is the PR reaction. Whatever you do, don't write to
HR or Jeff - that is amateur hour stuff to smoke out the problem people.

------
sagivo
I'm in the process of joining Amazon as a software engineer manager. I don't
know how to respond to this article and if to continue the process with them.

~~~
steven2012
I have decided to stop the interview process with Amazon as a result of this
article. Life is too short to have to deal with working in such a poisonous
culture as described. I've had a few people mention how much Amazon sucks, at
least in the Bay Area, but I thought maybe it was just a coincidence, but
based on the article, it seems like it's their culture.

~~~
AUmrysh
Both interviews I did with Amazon were pretty poor. I am a little upset by
their advocacy and use of visa workers, as though there are no American
engineers capable of doing the work. Facebook and other tech giants are guilty
of this too.

------
dataker
All of this discussion brings me to the Stanford Prison Experiment

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanford_prison_experiment](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanford_prison_experiment)

In such hierarchical systems, the issue goes beyond abuse itself, bringing
deinvidualization and loss of personal identity.

That partially explains why some workers won't leave the company even for a
similar/higher salary.

~~~
c_lebesgue
My thoughts exactly: which one is true? A) Amazon is a kind of narcissistic
codependency/Stockholm syndrome environment; B) the "horror" stories are
exaggerated; C) the job is so cool that people are willing to take some abuse;
D) there is other reason as to why Amazon succeeds.

------
eip
[https://gist.github.com/chitchcock/1281611](https://gist.github.com/chitchcock/1281611)

"Ha, ha! You 150-odd ex-Amazon folks here will of course realize immediately
that #7 was a little joke I threw in, because Bezos most definitely does not
give a shit about your day."

"We're talking about a guy who in all seriousness has said on many public
occasions that people should be paying him to work at Amazon. He hands out
little yellow stickies with his name on them, reminding people "who runs the
company" when they disagree with him. The guy is a regular... well, Steve
Jobs, I guess. Except without the fashion or design sense. Bezos is super
smart; don't get me wrong. He just makes ordinary control freaks look like
stoned hippies."

"At this point they don't even do it out of fear of being fired. I mean,
they're still afraid of that; it's pretty much part of daily life there,
working for the Dread Pirate Bezos and all."

------
qihqi
As an exAmazonian I think Amazon treated me decently. I ultimately left for
some place that treat me even better (with free food and better pay); but I
did not believe that I am entitled to those perks. Judging by life of the few
Amazonians I know personally, most of them agree with me. I only know one
person who complained heavily about Amazon and it is more about his team and
having a crappy boss than about the company.

~~~
myth_buster

      but I did not believe that I am entitled to those perks
    

This is the hook as people usually underestimate themselves and this comes
into play during salary negotiations too.

------
OnleMeMeMe
As if Jeff is reading jeff@amazon.com - would be the first enterprise CEO I
know who reads his mail instead of a web of (personal) assistants.

~~~
umanwizard
From what I can gather, he reads anything sent from another internal
(@amazon.com) address personally. Stuff from outside probably goes to
assistants.

~~~
OnleMeMeMe
Cool, thx.

------
beauzero
I think the point is being missed. As long as Amazon has "interesting"
problems to solve they will get good people (look at what PhD candidates will
suffer). If they don't then only those who can't leave will be left behind. I
know this is cynical but it is also why I love this field so much. I look for
interesting problems to solve...not huge benefits. Money just doesn't get me
up in the morning. Will I die poor...maybe...its not a big concern because I
love what I do.

Keeping it "interesting" is the problem that needs to be solved at Amazon. So
far they have been very successful at that.

~~~
Moshe_Silnorin
The problem with this is, with some marginal effort you could get vastly more
money and interesting problems. Accepting a low salary out of some misguided
notion that money isn't important to you is silly. Money gives you options you
would not otherwise have - a great salary combined with thrift can facilitate
an unusual amount of career flexibility. At the very least, you can donate the
money you don't need to GiveWell and save a few lives.

~~~
beauzero
It has been my experience that certain problem sets are only addressed by a
couple of companies at a time. Sometimes you have to see beyond the culture
and pick the problem.

It has also been my experience that a low salary is indicative of a very
boring company and set of problems. A very high salary is also indicative of a
very boring company and a set of problems that may stem from culture...i.e.
poor testing, etc.

...somewhere in the mid to upper end of salary lies very interesting problems.
I just don't make my decision based solely on salary.

------
kdamken
I'm always blown away when I read things like this:

"Even many Amazonians who have worked on Wall Street and at start-ups say the
workloads at the new South Lake Union campus can be extreme: marathon
conference calls on Easter Sunday and Thanksgiving, criticism from bosses for
spotty Internet access on vacation, and hours spent working at home most
nights or weekends."

Is this something people are proud of? You're working for a shipping company,
how do you get that brainwashed that you sign your life away like that? I
understand as you move up the ranks in seniority more is expected of you, but
I'm always surprised by the lack of self respect and boundaries people have
for themselves in professional environments.

------
ArtDev
Most folks know that Amazon warehouses are abusive. Why did it take Mr. Bezos
so long to figure this out?

He deserves the benefit of the doubt, but its hard to believe he didn't
already know.

------
vadym909
To the people that say an employee should just quit- it isn't that easy. 1\.
While it may be good for your resume to show you got selected by AMZN, the
reverse is it hurts your resume to show you only lasted a few months which may
imply it was a hiring mistake and you couldn't cut it. 2\. If you took a big
relocation package or sign-on bonus, you may feel inclined to stick it out
even if it not healthy to not have to pay back and to deflect #1.

------
otterley
I'm actually pleased with Mr. Bezos' response. He doesn't deny any of the
stories in the article, and he doesn't try to explain any of them away. His
attitude strikes me as one of a problem-solver and one who cares about his
company's reputation. I can't recall the last time I heard the CEO of a large
company say publicly, "if you've been treated this way, reach out to me
personally."

~~~
Mithaldu
His personal email address is 100% guaranteed staffed by a team of
secretaries. It might've been respectable if it had been an email specifically
for such complaints and no other user, and instructions on how to send things
to it anonymously. But as things stand it's just an attempt to get people like
you, who haven't been burned badly enough yet, to think he's actually being
"nice" there.

~~~
kilroy123
He probably really sees all emails sent to him internally from an amazon email
address.

------
zeruch
...except for Jeff's own habits. Now I don't actually have a bad view of
Amazon on the whole, but Bezos and his personality is well known for many
years as demanding to the point of monomaniacal, and often cowing of others.
That isn't just taking a pot shot, that's a repeated observation from many
people over many years. It's like saying Larry Ellison likes boats or Scott
McNealy hates dentists.

------
webwanderings
The second last paragraph there, is really strange! It almost sounds like as
if, he'd rather people leave if they don't like it.

------
dredmorbius
Bezos needs to buy some Robert Anton Wilson from himself.

Celine's Second Law: Accurate communication is possible only in a non-
punishing situation.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celine%27s_laws](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celine%27s_laws)

------
backtoyoujim
This just reaffirms my prognostication that Bezos and Clarkson will end in
fisticuffs.

------
fsloth
A particularly fitting past discussion in HN about among other things
Amazon:[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4195136](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4195136)

------
quotha
Jeff needs to read the cluetrain manifesto (again),
[http://cluetrain.com/index.html](http://cluetrain.com/index.html)

------
MCRed
Escalate to HR? That's exactly what I did.

Jeff is spinning his typical BS. My boss was abusive, drove off %70 of the
team and was dealing drugs to other employees in the PacMed garage. He lied to
me many times, and I started documenting it.

I went to HR about it, trying to get support so I could transfer out to a team
at AWS, where I knew the manager and he had offered me a job.

The HR person assured me that everything that I told her would be kept
confidential. She insisted I tell her what was going on with my boss, and thus
why I wanted to leave. I did tell her, and she then turned around and told my
boss all of it. (I didn't tell her he was dealing drugs, I actually felt
physically vulnerable to him because he had a violent temper-- his training
was to be a prison guard and that's what he wanted to be before somehow he was
hired at Amazon to manage programmers despite having difficulty even with
simple things like spreadsheets and Excel.)

The HR at Amazon is an organization that is a big part of the problem. After
she told my boss they started coming up with sudden complaint about my
performance and scheduled a meeting with the HR person.. who then talked bout
the things I had told her in confidence, in front of my boss (though I knew he
already knew) as if there had never been any reason for me to expect
confidence.

Also, I worked with Jeff Bezos on enough occasions that he knew who I was, and
would say hello by name in the hallway. The idea that i could have gone to him
directly with a complaint about my boss is asinine in the extreme. He would
have passed it on to HR and it would have been the same thing.

He might have cared about the drug dealing thing ,but only because it put the
company at risk.

The lack of empathy, and the rest of the employee hostile corporate culture
ORIGINATES with Jeff Bezos. HE is the source and the cause and to him -- and
this is a libertarian speaking-- everyone's existence is the sum total of the
money they make him.

In fact, I think Jeff Bezos is a pathological liar and a psychopath. He's very
charming, heartless and able to fake warmth. Clearly he has had PR training
too. But he's the evil at the core of Amazon.

I've had extensive dealings with Microsoft and Apple and other big companies--
none were any where close to as toxic and heartless as Amazon. Jeff really
sees people as resources to be exploited and could not care less about
employee development, or retention.

In fact, the back stabbing, competitive nature that makes it such a toxic
environment is designed in some sort of "survival of the fittest" delusion--
the product is regularly sacrificed (and amazon.com is pretty much a joke how
broken it is-- still is, in fact) as a result.

You win at Amazon by playing politics, not by being good at your job.

PS-- why was I stupid enough to go to HR? I've worked mostly for startups, and
it was the job previous to this that was my first real experience with an HR
"department" which was one person, who was damn good, and exceptional at
mediation and conflict resolution, full of integrity and trustworthy. I didn't
have experience at large companies to know that HR was mostly filled with
drama addicted flunkies.

~~~
timfrietas

        the PacMed garage.
    
    

I helped turn the lights out in that building over five years ago. I am no
Amazon apologist, but I do think it is worth mentioning your experience is
also not recent.

------
notNow
_I strongly believe that anyone working in a company that really is like the
one described in the NYT would be crazy to stay. I know I would leave such a
company._

The cynic in me would interpret this as a tacit invitation by the Bezo-man
himself to unhappy employees to beat it and don't let the door hit them on
their rears on their way out if they don't like working here but I could be
wrong but with the likes of Bezos and Ellison, you shouldn't set the bar
really high when it comes to human empathy.

------
satai
Jeff Bezos is definitely the new Steve Jobs.

~~~
MCRed
Jobs was a good guy who, under it all, had engineering skill and design chops.
He was compassionate and intelligent. Jobs built a great company that makes
real profits by selling real products.

Bezos is a psychopath, a hack who only cares about manipulating the situation
in his favor. He has built a shell of a retailer whos only profitable product
is its own stock.

~~~
serge2k
Jobs was a good guy. Wasn't he known for being outright cruel to employees?
Didn't he foster a culture of infighting and ridiculous hours? Wasn't he a
deadbeat dad for a couple decades?

Did he have engineering skill? He had vision and a level of genius, but I'm
not sure it applies to Engineering skill. Odd that you give that to him but
not to Bezos.

------
austenallred
"BREAKING: Hugely successful big co has ex employees not fully satisfied,
willing to criticize it. It also has current employees who appreciate it,
willing to defend it. Will keep you posted."

~~~
mfringel
....and thus it all cancels out? Show your work.

~~~
austenallred
It's just all so anecdotal. Finding five frustrated employees of a company
with things would not be hard to do, and the response pointed out how many of
the major complaints were severely taken out of context. It just reeks if
someone trying to make a story when there is none.

~~~
cylinder
This is how most "journalism" works these days. Write your report as if the
sky is falling, something extremely negative and spin it as if it's a major
global trend. Then read the article and it's just some quotes from maybe three
people, with very little data to back up the claim that it's a major trend. I
see this type of work _constantly._ Especially articles about America or about
"shortages." People get hyped up by a negative headline but don't think
critically about the content.

------
blindhippo
First world problems like no other...

We're talking about highly paid professionals working at a rather cushy job
all things considered. It's like listening to rich kids complain about having
blue M&M's touching the red M&M's in their bowl of candy.

Nothing in this whole bit of drama is shocking other then I'm not quite sure
why Amazon is being singled out. All of the complaints made are systematic
problems in any large corporation. The workplace isn't there to hold your hand
and to be your own personal playground. In Tech, you have to earn your place
every day and Amazon seems to make it clear that is the case (leadership
principals, talk of hard challenges, etc). I would expect to be "managed out"
if I showed up every day expecting to coast through with the bare minimum -
who would want to work at a company where that is acceptable?

Boycotting the company as a customer is also pretty funny to me. The chief
competition is Walmart - are the activists going to order from them instead?
How is that any better ethically?

~~~
fsloth
A poisonous workplace with lots of employees will create huge negative
externalities to the surrounding society.

1\. People look up to their successfull peers. Examples succesfull companies
create propagate throughout the management layers in the industry.

2\. If Amazon sets a 'lets suck them dry' example then this will lower the
barrier for other companies to follow suit, or enforce their existing
pathologies

3\. Bad work/life balance creates depressed people and is not so good for long
term productivity. It might create short term kicks for adrenaline junkies and
workaholics. Such practices have no rational defence, except that they appeal
to certain macho people. From the POV of the company it might not be a problem
since they can always hire more people to suck dry but the broken people who
leave have suffered personal tragedies with various side effects.

4\. What is this 'Tech' where 'one needs to earn their place every day'? It
certainly does not sound like professional software engineering for sane and
capable people who can choose where to work.

~~~
blindhippo
The funny part, I wholly agree with you. But none of this applies to Amazon,
at least at the level that I work at.

I work in a remote office in a country with sane labour laws (not the US). My
work/life balance is never under threat. In fact it's far better with Amazon
then it was with the start-up I used to work for, where 60+ was expected all
with a mantra of "we're a startup, therefore we can't pay you but we're
CHANGING THE WORLD!". At Amazon, there is zero pressure for employees to work
more then 40 hours unless something is truly going wrong with our areas of
responsibilities, and then everyone on the team is expected to pitch in to get
things back to normal. Show me a functional workplace where this isn't the
norm.

The day to day for a lower level engineer is quite relaxed at Amazon. The only
pressure I feel comes from my own drive to succeed, not from upper management.

But please, disregard everything I can tell you from first hand experience
because it doesn't fit your predetermined bias about the company.

