

With Windows Phone 7, Did Microsoft Actually Bring A Gun To A Gun Fight? - cwan
http://techcrunch.com/2010/10/12/windows-phone/

======
daleharvey
I guess I live in some alternative reality where my HTC desire is actually
much more enjoyable to use than an iphone. I can see how iphone users could
enjoy their device more, I just wish they would extend the same courtesy.

fanboy ranting aside I dont think I could trust microsoft to give me a nice
computing experience again, even if some people like it superficially, there
must be something wrong in there.

~~~
storm
10 points and climbing for a reply that essentially says, "Bah, it's
Microsoft, there must be something wrong with it"? That's really
disappointing, HN.

I foresee some serious cognitive dissonance playing out as Microsoft manages
to do a whole lot better than hive-mind "HA HA too little too late / M$ sucks"
sentiments have been allowing for. And frankly, Microsoft deserves the success
they've got coming to them here. Somehow, the teams responsible for WP7 have
been able to overcome the bureaucratic, backstabbing inertia that Microsoft is
famous for, and they've produced something pretty damned good for a 1.0. Shame
that so few people bother to actually examine the platform in any detail
before pontificating about it, predicting its doom, etc.

~~~
daleharvey
To be honest it was a pretty vacuous comment, and was mostly about iphone /
android than windows mobile.

But I didnt say it sucks, or that there must be something wrong with it, I
said I couldnt trust them (with a lot or money) not to suck, and my opinion
isnt formed from some hivemend, its formed from the last 10 years of my
experience with microsoft products.

~~~
Timothee
_I didnt say it sucks, or that there must be something wrong with it_

Actually you did, almost word for word: "there must be something wrong in
there" :)

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zmmmmm
This article seems a little under-appreciative of some of the innovations in
Android. After using Android I don't think I could go back to a phone that
didn't support home screen widgets no matter how good it looked or how
pleasant it was to use otherwise. A serious amount of my use of my phone is
mediated entirely through widgets now.

Having said that - I totally agree that WP7 is going to be pretty competitive
and I'm really happy about that. My hope is that it makes Google go the extra
mile with Gingerbread to really sweeten up the UI a bit - but we're going to
win (consumers, that is) either way.

~~~
spiffworks
>Google go the extra mile with Gingerbread to really sweeten up the UI a bit

I've never understood what exactly people mean when they say that. The one
area Google needs to fix is the settings menu, with a much more logical
organisation which they failed to do properly even in Froyo. Other than that,
the worst flaws in Android are not things that Google can just wave a wand and
fix without breaking backward compatibility.

Agree with you about the widgets, though. Can't live without them.

~~~
zmmmmm
I present to you the iOS date picker side by side with the Android date
picker:

<http://i.imgur.com/PcNGf.png>

One has a beautiful touch responsive scrolling display while the other
requires you to pick out small + and - symbols and tap repeatedly on them
until you get to the right date. Mis-hitting the square below brings up the
keyboard with a jarring UI-rearranging effect.

This kind of stuff, as well as the fluidity of the UI in general (jerky
scrolling, transitions sudden instead of animated) is what they need to
address.

------
greyman
As a long-time developer of Windows desktop applications, I am quite excited
about the possibility to using Visual Studio, C# and .NET to create software
for my phone. I like what I see so far, and suddenly, Android doesn't look
that much exciting to me anymore.

~~~
golgo13
I'm with you. I have wanted to develop apps for a while, but I didn't want to
jump into Java or Objective C. With C#, I already know how things work, so
there is no learning curve for me. So I dropped the $99 to sell apps in the
marketplace. My market verification is complete, but I was not picked for the
initial wave of apps. Hopefully, I'll get cleared to sell WP7 apps soon after
launch.

~~~
BrandonWatson
I run dev marketing for wp7. Shoot me an email and lets see if we can't get
you on the list. brwatson@microsoft

------
clofresh
Does anyone know if it will sync with Macs?

~~~
recoiledsnake
I don't think it will at launch. But they're supposed to be working on support
for Zune desktop for the Mac.

~~~
rbanffy
Thanks. Now I spilled coffee on the keyboard...

------
JackRudley
While I understand that the diversity of the hardware is a strength, I feel
that the Androids problem is the large variety of hardware it is on which
makes it harder to develop for than the iPhone, does anyone think that these
problems will be a major issue for Windows Phone 7?

~~~
greyman
No, I don't think so, because according to the presentations Microsoft put
forward strict rules for the hardware makers who wants to run WP7, like
processor, RAM, only two allowed screen resolutions, etc.

~~~
gvb
Hmmm, that sounds a lot like the lead-in for another "Vista Capable" debacle.

[http://arstechnica.com/hardware/news/2009/01/1-5-billion-
mic...](http://arstechnica.com/hardware/news/2009/01/1-5-billion-microsoft-
vista-capable-booty-hardly-ill-gotten.ars)

------
gamble
It's telling that most of the comments on this article are the usual iPhone
vs. Android arguments. I just don't see the interest out there for another
smartphone platform to survive, particularly one which is so far outside the
interface norms established by earlier entrants.

------
chopsueyar
_In the Hall of the Mountain King_ , also used in _The Social Network_ regatta
scene.

Coincidence or intentional?

~~~
siglesias
It has become the de facto dark humor tension building track.

~~~
chopsueyar
What about _The Thieving Magpie_?

------
rbanffy
So, their idea is to make a phone so awful, so useless, people won't want to
use it, right?

They could have done it with WinMo 6... It would be cheaper...

------
wslh
IDNS (Is Dot Net, Stupid) :-)

------
retube
Techcrunch comments resemble Youtube comments more every day

------
iuguy
Just got an iPhone 4, after 'upgrading' from a 3G.

It has the new hotness. Retina screen is nice, but it's so annoying that I
can't use it with my left hand. Thanks apple.

I can see things hotting up if Microsoft can get it together, but they're very
much the underdog and lack a reason to buy one (unlike say, iphone - the
shiny, android - the geeky, blackberry - the constant messaging).

~~~
froo
I just got my iPhone 4 yesterday. I love it, I really do.. I haven't been able
to replicate the deathgrip to the same extent that others can. Best I can do
is drop 1 bar.

------
stcredzero
_...it’s going to get stranger and more frantic if Microsoft once again
becomes a big player in the mobile space. If they get there, will they use
their power to try and bend the carriers to their will? Or will they take the
Google approach and let them walk all over the place dictating features and
bloatware?_

If M$ doesn't bend carriers to their will, then they might end up with crappy
software on superior hardware. Not only does Microsoft have to guard against
design-by-committee from within, it has to deal with the same from the
carriers. In other words, Microsoft has to fight its DNA to be beautiful,
while Apple just has to follow their usual tendencies. On the other hand,
individual companies in the Android space can decide where they fall in the
luxury/bargain spectrum.

Apple vs. Android is cathedral vs. bazaar. Is Windows Phone 7 going to be
another cathedral, a bazaar, or will it be a half-assed combination of the
two?

(Note that cathedrals took advantage of the efforts of several generations of
individual workers adding their own contributions, but in a way which fit the
whole. In other words, cathedrals were also a kind of ecosystem!)

 _The mobile space is about to be a full-on gun fight. And at least Microsoft
seems to have walked into the middle of it with the right weapon._

A 3-way standoff? Who's the Good, The Bad, and The Ugly?

~~~
recoiledsnake
>If M$...

I thought Hacker News was above the juvenile 'M$' but guess I was wrong.

>Is Windows Phone 7 going to be another cathedral, a bazaar, or will it be a
half-assed combination of the two?

Right now it looks like a good combination. Good variety in hardware(for
example, phones with real keyboard unlike the iPhone) while still retaining
the ability to directly update the software(no shipping of old versions that
take ages to get updated, if they get done at all, like Android).

~~~
raganwald
How is "M$" juvenile? It is a nickname I have seen from many adults but never
from children. Do you mean "immature; childish; infantile?" as the dictionary
suggests? I don't see hows. It implies to me that the person using the
nickname claims that Microsoft is motivated entirely or largely by making
money at the expense of all other considerations. It's cut from the same cloth
as "MSFT," which implies they value their stock price above all else (this
would appear to be wrong, based on the stock's performance, but there you go).

You or I may not agree wit the characterization, but I hardly see this as
immature. Informal, perhaps, in comparison to writing "Microsoft (who worship
at the Temple of Mammon)..." But I don't see it as childish and juvenile.

There is another possibility. If "M$" has been regularly used by people who
are juvenile in other ways, perhaps using "M$" in trollish flamewars and ad
hominem diatribes, it can become guilty through association with juvenile
rants. Is that the problem here? That the nickname has been used so often by
people acting in a juvenile way that it has unpleasant overtones you perceive
that are invisible to someone like myself who doesn't share your life
experience?

~~~
NickPollard
Using M$ is pretty much a defacto ad hominem - it means you're leading your
position by saying 'Microsoft only care about money', and then using that to
argue that there must be a problem with their products, without backing up or
clarifying that assertion.

Imagine if people started their posts with 'Facebook, who hate privacy, have
just...', or 'Apple, who hate freedom, have now...', or 'Google, who are
spying on you, are about to...'

That would be pretty pathetic.

~~~
raganwald
_Using M$ is pretty much a defacto ad hominem - it means you're leading your
position by saying 'Microsoft only care about money', and then using that to
argue that there must be a problem with their products, without backing up or
clarifying that assertion._

Your description of the alleged meaning of this nickname is similar to my
understanding of an ad hominem, however it differs in substantial ways. When
Microsoft is the subject of a discussion, an assertion about their motivations
is not an ad hominem: An assertion about one of the persons participating in
the debate would be an ad hominem.

So what we have is an assertion about Microsoft's motivations and an unfounded
argument that this is the cause for some perceived product woes. This is
clearly weak rhetoric (and trivially fallacious: Apple seems to do just fine
lusting after money).

But I am left rubbing my chin in confusion by your assertion that using the
nickname automatically means that you're arguing that there is a problem with
their products. My understanding is that the problem with their products is
that have no taste. Someone using "M$" could be thinking that their avarice
means that they behave in monopolistic ways, or that they have a certain type
of internal company culture, or any number of things.

But there is no need to assume what they are saying or to jump to some
conclusion about what they are claiming: I can simply read what they write. If
they write "M$ are unable to ship good products," I can argue with that
statement directly instead of arguing with their use of the nickname.

As for your second paragraph... Wow. Imagine if I were to make up a whole list
of things that people are __not __saying and use it to stir up all kinds of
emotional feelings as a way of trying to convince you that using a nickname I
don't like was pathetic. Would that add to the discussion?

I think I am going to stop right here. I see a nickname that claims Microsoft
cares primarily or only about money. You see a nickname dragging all sorts of
baggage and claims and unfounded arguments around. You feel the need to exert
social pressure to eliminate it, including characterizing it in an insulting
fashion ("juvenile").

I understand what you are saying, and that is quite enough for me.

~~~
recoiledsnake
He didn't characterize the comment as 'juvenile', that was me. Pay attention
to the commenters' names. :)

>I see a nickname that claims Microsoft cares primarily or only about money.

The original commenter clarified that it meant something along the lines of
'Microsoft, who has money'. That shows that it's a term that can result in a
lot of confusion, but I have seen it mostly used as a put down by people who
think it's cool to use it.

