
China celebrates 60 years - mapleoin
http://www.boston.com/bigpicture/2009/10/china_celebrates_60_years.html
======
miked
My father-in-law was a mid-level Communist Party official (photo editor of the
People's "Liberation" Army newspaper) who knew Mao personally. Years later
Mao's people threw him in a concentration camp for "rightists" because he had
made a joke about the Great Helmsman. When they ran out of cooking oil they
would cook his food in used motor oil. The man they tortured and forced to rat
him out never recovered from the shame. My wife and I had dinner with his
daughter in Beijing two years ago. She still carries the shame for her father,
even today. A little gift from Mao that keeps on giving.

They were the lucky ones, of course. The consensus estimate is that 70 million
human beings have died so far during the CCP's reign of terror, mostly from
starvation. My wife spent much of her youth hungry. She and her friends used
to pull the stingers out of honeybees to get a bit of sweetness in their
lives. The things little girls do, huh?

Not much terror these days of course, unless you're Tibetan, Falun Gong, or an
enemy of the state. The strange thing for me, when walking around China, is
that the monster's face is on the money. Statues of him are still common. He's
the worst murderer who ever lived, and you have to look at him when buying a
rose. Isn't life interesting?

~~~
lionhearted
> They were the lucky ones, of course. The consensus estimate is that 70
> million human beings have died so far during the CCP's reign of terror,
> mostly from starvation. My wife spent much of her youth hungry. She and her
> friends used to pull the stingers out of honeybees to get a bit of sweetness
> in their lives. The things little girls do, huh?

I dated a Chinese girl for 3 and 1/2 years whose father was sent to a labor
camp for a lot of her childhood.

I really don't understand how the Communists don't have the same reputation
and stigma of the Nazis. They killed over twice as many people, most of them
civilians, and did it for twice as long. They ran their countries into the
ground in pretty much all meaningful measures, destroying civilizations well
known for science, commerce, and innovation. They accomplished almost nothing
of value, in any of the areas mankind finds valuable. And they're treated with
a mild disdain, but nothing like the Third Reich, where they probably deserve
even worse treatment.

If anyone doesn't know who Deng Xiaoping is, it's worth reading a little bit
about him. He was probably one of the most important and good politicians of
the last 100 years. He helped lead China out of the Communist mess they were
in, declaring, "It doesn't matter what color the cat is as long as it catches
the mouse." Was imprisoned for a while due to his views before taking over and
putting China back on the path to being a global power with healthy, happy
citizens.

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deng_Xiaoping>

But as a casual historian, I'm still baffled why the Communists don't have the
same or worse of a rep than the Nazis - input from knowledgeable people is
welcome.

~~~
netsp
The courts of public opinion, history or even the actual international courts
are poor ones. The Nazis are unique in the treatment they got. Many of the
judgements do not contain the consistency to be called justice.

The Nazis lost to deeply injured enemies, Europe, the Soviet Union & the US.
They were clearly proven to be malicious. That is they were evil in theory,
intention, strategy, tactic, rhetoric, practice and in practical outcome.
Communists tended to have at least some of these which were palatable. This
leaves the possibility that they have good intentions, got waylaid, failed,
etc.

Nazis brought terrible suffering and disgrace to their own people and were
recognised by Germans in this way. But this is extremely unusual and it _is_ a
consequence of regime change. Look at Turkey and the Armenian genocide. Modern
Turks do not believe in it and it was almost 100 years ago. You can't be
friendly with Turkey and bring it up.

Communism has not really fallen in the same way Nazism and Fascism fell. Even
Russia is still really a descendant of the Soviet Union.

The places that do consider communists similarly to fascists are those places
that felt colonised by them.

~~~
lionhearted
This makes sense. Here's the four I got from you:

1\. History is fairly inconsistent.

2\. The Nazis were across-the-board evil, whereas the Communists at least
pretended to have some decent intentions.

3\. The big one which makes sense - the governments and descendants of the
fascist areas owned up to what they did and denounced it. Most places don't.

4\. Finally, no real theatrics or drama at the end. Communism just slowly
eroded and died, there were no cities sacked or surrenders signed.

Good points: #3 was the biggest one I hadn't considered enough.

That said, I've traveled around the world some, have friends who had parents
in the Communist Party, and have an older acquaintance whose family were
Polish resistance fighters to the Nazis later turned black marketers/Polish
underground.

Pretty much everyone with exposure to Communism thinks it was a pretty awful
thing, on pretty much all levels.

Berlin's got to be the most obvious example: You can walk through old, pre-
WWII Berlin neighborhoods (beautiful), Allied post-WWII Berlin neighborhoods
(pretty nice), and Soviet post-WWII neighborhoods (very ugly, foreboding, and
dreadful aside from what the citizens have made of it recently). It's a pretty
incredible contrast.

But the way you outlined it makes sense - great points, and thanks for
shedding some light.

~~~
catzaa
Although this is HN and we should not discuss politics, just a few points.

Firstly, the Nazis may have been bad – but the treatment of post-WW1 Germany
was bad and a causing factor of WW2.

The Treaty of Versailles ensured in effect that there will be another war in
Europe. I think that Germany was uniquely the only country in the 20th century
to receive such a hard “punishment” (both economically and culturally) when
they lost the First World War.

------
mahmud
The title should be "the ruling Communist Party of China celebrates 60 years
in power". China, a sovereign entity, existed for far longer than that.

Still, a magnificent show and an epic display of might, the likes of which
only China could pull off.

[edit: Video:

<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fwi_2GCthx0>

]

~~~
jhancock
I don't think "the ruling Communist Party of China celebrates 60 years in
power" would be a good title. The current governance of China is communist in
name only and has morphed substantially multiple times over those 60 years.

~~~
gaius
Agreed - the ruling totalitarian government would be more accurate.

~~~
jhancock
I've lived in Shanghai for 10 years. Very little that Beijing tells Shanghai
to do has an impact on daily life there. For the most part, Shanghai controls
Shanghai. Governance in China is fragmented, hierarchical, and networked.

I built a large workflow system for the Shanghai gov in 2001. To build such a
system, I had to understand decision processes, chains of command, etc. If
there was an "org chart" I never saw it, but had to piece it together through
inputs from many government departments. The structures that exist follow
patterns well understood by those in power (and to varying degree by many in
society). These processes are more complex then Western business or government
structure and rarely dictatorial.

Decision takes a long time to incubate while various interests align. Once
consensus is reached, they move forward in lock-step. An outsider may view
these actions as the result of a dictatorial process. I can assure you they
are not.

~~~
gaius
I'm curious - could you for instance walk the streets of Shanghai in a t-shirt
openly critical of the government? 'Cos people in London do it all the time...

~~~
halo
Well, anywhere in London except Parliament Square without prior permission as
you'd be arrested for doing an unauthorised protest.

~~~
jhancock
The U.S. Constitution's first amendment provides for "the right of the people
peaceably to assemble".

Try doing this in front of the White House without a permit. In Atlanta,
Georgia, for example, the mayor has veto powers over permit requests. Try
waving the constitution in front of an Atlanta police office as he's dragging
you to jail.

------
poutine
Very spectacular but the normal Beijing people were kept well away from the
parade. Like many things it does this display demonstrates the weakness of the
regime rather than the strength. It needs such a display to attempt to show to
its people (and in a smaller part to the world) that the Communist party is
powerful and everlasting. That the Communist party brings great face to China
through power and prosperity.

China is on the edge of the precipice. Especially with this recent economic
turmoil. While they live in an authoritarian society, Chinese people are not
sheep. There are far too many have nots and the memory of standing up and
deposing the government is still in many peoples minds.

------
abalashov
The irony of the Empire State Building being lit in red and yellow in
deference to the commemoration is not lost.

In 2009, China is Maoist and "Communist" in name only; in fact, much of the
awe-inspiring artifacts and sophisticated technologies on display in the
parade are principally features of a >= Deng Xiaoping environment - well,
maybe starting with Hu Yaoban.

Meanwhile, in 1949 when the authentic Maoists seized power, the US provided
entirely nontrivial military aid and financial assistance to the retreating
Kuomintang (nationalist) government, and did much to try to suffocate the
revolution in its cradle after the PLA did seize power.

Now the US salutes them (and warmly encourages them to maybe continue buying
Treasuries... please?), and meanwhile there is nothing in the faintest bit
"Communist" about the establishment, save for the nomenclature and iconic
imagery of the incumbent power structure.

~~~
est
> much of the awe-inspiring artifacts and sophisticated technologies on
> display in the parade are principally features of a >= Deng Xiaoping
> environment - well, maybe starting with Hu Yaoban.

Sorry, but most of the ass-kicking weapons were from Mao's.

Deng? He buys foreign things and never make ones themselves.

~~~
varjag
There were precious little weapons originated under Mao regime. They were
either of Soviet manufacture, or straightforward copies of Soviet designs. The
(often brilliant) Chinese engineers were instead plowing paddy fields in
correction villages.

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beilabs
Wonder how long it will be before Hacker News is blocked in China....

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yannis
I watched it on TV. Highly impressive, perhaps more impressive than the
opening ceremony of the Olympics. The pictures actually don't do it justice to
the marches.

I wish my code was as neat as this ;)

~~~
jerryji
The march _is_ neat, but not very creative, I wish my code were more creative
than that ;)

~~~
gaius
Well, exactly. Similar regimes have been holding mass parades like this since
the 1930s.

Still, I suppose it's nice to see tanks in Tiananmen Square without anyone
getting killed in the process.

------
mapleoin
I especially like the seventh picture. The guy should probably also put a
bubble level on their heads.

