
Ask HN: Is it possible to start of as a programmer at almost 40? - srameshc
I am almost 40. I have been programming as a hobby so far because I could never get a job as a programmer. I am ok with Java and now learning Go which I totally love now and some JS. Is it possible to start of as a professional programmer at almost 40 ?<p>Update: Thanks everyone for your honest and insightful feedback. It helped me truly to stay upbeat about starting as a programmer at 40.
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eshvk
It is possible to be a programmer at any age. However, getting hired is a
different thing. I don't know what part of the world you are in, however age
related discrimination happens, especially in Silicon Valley. I haven't heard
reports in the bigger companies but in startups, yes.

I think there are a few reasons for it:

1\. There are a lot of startups where the glamor of the industry means that
they can easily pressure 20 something fresh out of school folks who are
probably also suffering from imposter syndrome that the only way to learn is
to work insane amounts of hours. I have no problems with working hard on
improving yourself but a work life balance and doing productive work are not
the same as that. I still remember one startup where one of the co-founders
took pride in telling me that a guy in his team spent 30 days sleeping at
work. Fuck that noise. As a person more experienced, you are probably well
aware of that balance. However, as a junior developer, you are probably not as
productive as someone else your age.

2\. Money. The nature of American society means that people don't talk about
their wages. Programmers while being well paid compared to the rest of America
are not at least initially as much as they should be. As an older person,
there may be a perception that you won't work for ridiculously low amounts of
money and be cool with that.

3\. Culture fit. A company of people who conflate having similar interests
(board games, craft beer or whatever other bullshit your tiny subculture may
have) with being able to collaboratively build amazing shit can easily
convince themselves that someone who doesn't fit into that profile will not be
a good fit.

~~~
kordless
> can easily convince themselves that someone who doesn't fit into that
> profile will not be a good fit

I wouldn't want to work for anyone like that anyway. People who make blanket
blaming statements need not have me apply.

~~~
eshvk
The surprising thing is that you probably already work with people like that.
Hiring much like dating is an incredibly subjective process. I am insanely
curious about hiring decisions and always like to once I get to know the folks
who interviewed me, try to probe their reasoning process. It kind of
disappoints me that for an industry driven so much by logic, mathematics and
data, hiring is one of those fields where anecdotes and heuristics are more in
vogue.

------
danso
I strongly urge you to read this great essay published in the NYT last month:

[http://www.nytimes.com/2013/11/03/education/edlife/how-to-
ge...](http://www.nytimes.com/2013/11/03/education/edlife/how-to-get-an-a-in-
organic-chemistry.html)

> _How to Get an A- in Organic Chemistry_

 _Contemplating a midlife career change from science writer to doctor, I spent
eight months last year at Harvard Extension School slogging through two
semesters of organic chemistry, or orgo, the course widely known for weeding
out pre-meds. At 42, I was an anomaly, older than most of my classmates (and
both professors), out of college for two decades and with two small children.
When I wasn’t hopelessly confused, I spent my time wondering what the class
was actually about. Because I’m pretty sure it wasn’t just about organic
chemistry. For me, the overriding question was not “Is this on the test?” but
rather “What are they really testing?”_

The author of that essay is a journalist with no academic background in hard
science. Sure, she's probably done well for herself to be able to go back to
school at the age of 42...but she's going into a very rigorous field (becoming
a doctor) and she has two small children.

I guess people can debate what's really harder to get into, programming or
medicine (given equal amounts of time and freedom to pursue)...but the one
nice thing about programming is that if you have lots of time, you don't have
to spend much money doing it or go through formal institutions and
certifications. If someone likes what you've built, even if that someone is
you, that's progress.

------
scardine
A few years ago I hired a guy that was already into his forty-something.

I can't remember who introduced him, he was fresh out of a nasty divorce, new
in town, almost broke, had no experience and no skills, but he seemed so
passionate about starting over that I gave him the recruiting test we used
back then. The test consisted into reproducing complex patterns using HTML
tables (most internship candidates fresh out college failed this one).

I explained how to merge cells and showed the desired output, after a few
minutes he came with the right answers, without any previous knowledge of
HTML. He was hired on internship wage and did very well.

Last time I heard, he was working for HP as a Java programmer.

The question is, do you want this hard enough?

~~~
fygwtclub
Beautiful. That was like a 15 seconds inspirational movie.

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eigenrick
As a 40 something, you have a lot of strength and experience to leverage. Much
of it might apply to programming. For instance:

* People Skills - This is critical in almost every programming job, understanding _what_ and _why_ to do is more important is more important than how. Good communication is the path to that and many programmers get this wrong.

* Writing - Being able to take a ton of ideas and organize them into coherent, modular sections.

* Discipline - One thing that I have far more of at 35 than I did at 22. It is a critical component to learning as well as working through problems correctly (not half-assing it)

~~~
jerf
Don't forget Domain Knowledge! You were probably doing something up until you
were 40. You know a _loooot_ more about whatever it is than someone graduating
from college. Play that to the hilt. It is often incredibly valuable.

Plus eigenrick's suggestions also specialize to your domain; for instance, if
you were in construction (which I saw someone post a very similar question
from once), not only do you know the construction world, you know how to speak
their language, at both conscious and subconscious levels. You can comfort &
reassure a construction buyer more than any random schmoe ever could. And so
on.

------
beachstartup
the challenge isn't getting the job or learning the skill, it's:

* convincing someone to pay you commensurate with your age and experience over a 22 year old kid who needs one third the money and benefits

* convincing the hiring manager that you're not in it because you are desperate or going through a midlife crisis

* convincing the hiring manager that you won't mind being at the bottom of the totem pole, both at work and in society (programming is not a prestigious career to 90% of people)

notice how much convincing there is to do, despite the facts? if you go down
this road you will be battling perceptions, not reality.

~~~
nilkn
At least in the US, software development is far , far from "the bottom of the
totem pole" socially. I actually have no idea how anybody could think that.
No, it's not the same socially as being, say, a heart surgeon or a senator,
but it's a better career than virtually all others accessible with just a
bachelor's degree, on par with chemical engineering.

~~~
beachstartup
you're right - chemical engineers are also on the bottom of the totem pole.

basically if you aren't in management or ownership, you are the bottom of the
totem pole. this is by definition. if you look at an organization chart -
who's on the bottom?

~~~
nilkn
Janitors. But they're not people, right? No reason to pay any attention to
them.

Also, let's ignore all the people in the world who don't even work at large,
prestigious, and highly profitable companies in the first place. They don't
matter and aren't to be considered even part of society.

You are thinking inside of a bubble and ignoring everything outside it. You're
constructing a highly exclusive slice of society with developers at the
bottom, million-dollar attorneys in the middle, and rock-star CEOs and
billionaires at the top. There exist thousands of towns and small cities, each
with many, many thousands of people, where 95% of jobs are worse than almost
any given programming job in a larger city and _very significantly_ worse than
a programming job at, say, Google or Facebook.

~~~
beachstartup
well, programmers and sysadmins are about the same level as janitors, or
plumbers, or any other kind of laborer. not sure why you're upset at this.

~~~
nilkn
I think at this point you're just deliberately being obtuse. You're free to
make bizarre claims like that which virtually nobody would agree with, but
unless you want to take the time to elaborate I'm not going to take the time
to engage with you on this.

------
dickler
It's really difficult to get hired (I'm 34 and can't get into the system).
However freelancing and doing your own MobileApp/SAAS/CAAS (cognition-as-a-
service) is a viable activity, it just takes a longer time to get to a decent
income.

~~~
srameshc
Thanks @dickler. Very valuable feedback. Appreciate it.

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japhyr
Do you have a particular area of expertise outside of programming?

If you can blend non-programming expertise with a growing ability to develop
reliable software, you might be able to make youself employable sooner rather
than later.

~~~
srameshc
Thanks @Japhyr. Sales and Accounts is what I look into. I have some ideas for
products but everything at a very early stage.

------
nickthemagicman
I'm in school for it in my mid-30's but haven't graduated yet so can't really
give any definitive answer. I just wanted to build cool applications but
there's all this talk about drop down automata and lambda expressions that are
killing my passion for the subject.

It's a lot harder than I expected.

I'm interested to see what other people have to say.

~~~
JonnieCache
It's fairly common for programmers who aren't immediately intoxicated by
mathematics to go to university and be interested in but ultimately confused
by this stuff. In the workplace, one is relieved that those subjects turn out
to usually seem quite divorced from the day to day work of programming.

About 12 months in, you (hopefully) realise that those concepts are actually
pretty crucial, and the extent to which you can succeed as a working
programmer is the extent to which you can see the application of those
abstract concepts in your daily work. The good news is, that gets much easier
with real world experience. You'll go back, reopen the books and say, "oh,
it's just a stack. fine."

The exception to all of this is State Machines. They are the most important
thing. If you see something in your code that smells like a state machine, for
the sake of humanity, please, make it one explicitly.

------
27182818284
Sure. Don't fool yourself into thinking you'll be as productive as the
20-something MIT student who has been doing this since they were a kid and
their brain was still in child-sponge mode, but yes, you can. You actually
have an advantage, I think, in doing a .NET / Java route is actually very
doable.

------
glyphobet
Yes. A good team will recognize that your love for programming means you'll
improve rapidly, especially in an environment with constructive feedback from
tolerant team members. And if you have other professional experience you can
bring to bear (knowing how to work in a team, process & planning, customer
support) the find a team that needs someone with that experience as well as
programming ability.

If you can't find anyone willing to hire you because of your lack of
professional experience, find a team you like and offer to work for them for
free for three months. If you show promise, and you get along with the team,
they'll want to hire you when the three months are up. And if not, you'll get
feedback on your skills and learn what kind of teams to look for in the
future.

------
hrktb
> _I could never get a job as a programmer_

I don't think your age is so important, instead this bit could be; I think the
reasons you kept programming as a hobby only are the most relevant for the
discussion. Was the pay too low compared to your current job? Was it too hard
to interview in you area ? Was it a question of starting with 0 professional
experience ? Or wasn't it just in your priorities to try to land a programming
job ?

At any age you'll be able to switch fields. But did the reasons you didn't do
so until now became somewhat irrelevant ?

~~~
srameshc
Thanks @hrktb . It was a mix of many reasons which you pointed. But the most
important reason was I wasn't competent enough as a programmer and I wasn't
lucky enough to get a programming job for my mere passion.

~~~
hrktb
Thanks for the details. If you were able to make working projects as a hobby,
I think competency shouldn't be a problem. You should already know the basiscs
and since you're intersted in what you'll be doing, I think you'll learn fast
enough everything you have to know to do a decent job.

In a lot of fields your reliability as a worker and ability to collaborate
will be valued at least as much as technical skills. You might get weird mixes
of management and programming jobs, but it might be a good way to start as
well. I hope you'll find what suits you.

------
RomanPushkin
Yes, yes, and absolutely yes!

Check out this inspiring article [http://joshuakemp.blogspot.ru/2013/11/how-
blacksmith-learned...](http://joshuakemp.blogspot.ru/2013/11/how-blacksmith-
learned-to-code-and-9.html)

~~~
nhebb
Interesting post, but the author is 28, not 40 like the OP.

------
flueedo
Yes. In case you haven't already, take part in opensouce projects of your
liking as soon as possible, as a next step of involvement with the world of
development.

------
zafka
I earned my Computer engineering Degree at age 36 and started at an entry
level development job. I was a paid intern while finishing school. Now I joke
that if I am looking for a job, folks looking at my resume assume I am in my
mid thirties from my graduation date. I try to stay continually grateful for
having won the genetic and geographic lottery. All I need to do is show up and
my needs are met.

------
mmastrac
Why not? You can learn anything at any age. It might take a lot longer than if
you were 10, and a little bit more than if you were 20.

The most important thing is passion. If you have it, it'll make learning
anything 10x easier.

------
ChrisAntaki
Yeah! It sounds like you enjoy coding. In my experience, that's the most
important factor to long term high skill level, and success. Just keep
enjoying it, and you'll naturally want to learn more and improve over time.

------
bzaman7
Yes, why not . I think you can,

I got heart attack when I was in age 32 February 2009, I just lost my military
(navy) government job due to disability in their term. I year later I stared
to learn html, css and js. freelance at odesk just change my world.

Zaman

------
intellectronica
Most definitely. There is always a shortage of good, enthusiastic hackers. If
you're good enough or even just promising and are able to demonstrate that
you'll have no problem finding work.

------
harvestmoon
I believe you could. The path I'd recommend is learn programming, get
experience that you can put on your resume (such as developing an online tool
or doing a startup), then go from there.

Good luck!

------
radley
It's also about establishing a network. Join some meet-ups in your area. Ask
questions. Start contracting. Find a mentor (older or younger). Usual stuff.

------
thejteam
May we ask what you do now? Does this industry employ programmers? Do you have
management experience that could hep you justify a job as a project manager?

------
WalterBright
Yes, of course it is.

------
esalman
Not everyone can become a programmer. But then if you have the aptitude, you
can, even at 40.

~~~
srameshc
You are right. And this is exactly what induces in me that very doubt.
Sometimes I see these really smart young kids who build amazing stuff and
sound so mature in their writing that is when I feel will I be able to
contribute if I am in a team of such young and talented.

~~~
k-mcgrady
>> "Sometimes I see these really smart young kids who build amazing stuff and
sound so mature in their writing"

I'm a 23 year old programmer and see this stuff too. I also feel like I could
never be as good as some of them. But it doesn't matter :) I've been working
full-time freelance for 5 years now and you can always find jobs that are fun,
challenging, but not out of your skill level. I'm sure this is the same when
working for a company. Some companies need child geniuses, others need
passionate people who work hard and like to learn.

------
AbdulAkin
@srameshc, need to chat with you. kindly contact me at abdulakin at icloud dot
com. thanx

------
rman666
Yes!

------
andyl
Yes you can start as a professional programmer at 40. You can't get hired, but
you can do consulting or start a business. (at least in Silicon Valley IMHO)

I retrained as a programmer in my 40s. My experience is that I can seriously
out-perform most developers who are 20 years younger than me, because I know
how to deal with people and business issues cold. And I know how to stay
focused and eliminate distractions in a way that I didn't when I was in my
20's.

Go for it!

~~~
nickthemagicman
Lol you can't get hired....

~~~
matchagaucho
Seriously.... at 40+ a more mature goal should be to _avoid_ getting hired and
pursue more freedom through consulting or independent work online.

~~~
geon
I had that "mature" goal at 24, since noone was hiring. Now I'm 33 and happily
employed. There are pros and cons to both.

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logjam
Of course. You can do anything at 40 - become a programmer, go back to school
and get a doctorate in physics, become a physician, etc.

