
More than half of the trees that grow only in Europe risk extinction, says IUCN - reddotX
https://www.dw.com/en/nearly-60-of-europes-native-trees-risk-extinction/a-50607229
======
mpol
I do think there is something hypocritical in us pointing fingers to Brazil
for destroying the Amazon forest. In Europe, most forests have been destroyed
in the past centuries, all for economic gain. If we are so concerned, why not
rebuild those forests. Apparently we are not that concerned, we still make the
same choice for economic gain, just like Brazil does.

~~~
SuddsMcDuff
Most deforestation in Europe was pre-industrial. Europe is actually doing a
pretty great job of reforestation -
[https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2014/12/04...](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2014/12/04/watch-
how-europe-is-greener-now-than-100-years-ago/)

~~~
fuzz4lyfe
Has Brazil fully industrialized? With a per capita GDP of less than ten
thousand dollars and a population mostly employed in the agriculture sector
(compared to 2% in the US) I'd say not yet. The west is trying to kick the
ladder out from behind them.

~~~
simongray
> a population mostly employed in the agriculture sector (compared to 2% in
> the US)

It's 10% of the population, about a quarter of GDP, so not "mostly". Brazil is
usually put into the Newly Industrialised Country category. It has quite a bit
of secondary sector giants too.

~~~
fuzz4lyfe
Fair enough. I didn't look up Brazil specially but I am familiar with the
rates in the region and assumed they were similar.

Western countries have not eliminated a quarter of their GDP to prevent
climate change, shouldn't they do that before telling those much poorer than
they to do so?

~~~
ratww
Stopping the deforestation isn't going to affect the GDP at all, let alone
slash a quarter of it.

Keep in mind that the deforestation is purely caused by the livestock industry
trying to squeeze profits. There are other ways to produce meat that don't
involve invading and burning forests.

According to the government, in 2017 only 5,7% of the GDP is _directly_
related to agriculture and livestock _production_ [1]. And according to an
industry website livestock was responsible for only 31% of that [2].

The rest of that "one quarter" is related to processing and distribution,
which can happen in urban areas closer to the southeast, far away from the
Amazon, and those things don't benefit at all from the deforestation.

And the processing/distribution industry could exist by itself without local
production, as proved by places like Hong Kong, the largest importer of
Brazilian beef. [3]

By the way, the biggest producer of beef in Brazil is the state of Sao Paulo,
which is on the other side of the country, not at all related to Amazon. [3]

So nope. Stopping the Amazon deforestation RIGHT NOW won't even make dent in
our GDP.

\---

[1] [http://www.agricultura.gov.br/noticias/agropecuaria-puxa-
o-p...](http://www.agricultura.gov.br/noticias/agropecuaria-puxa-o-pib-
de-2017)

[2] [https://www.beefpoint.com.br/abiec-perfil-da-pecuaria-no-
bra...](https://www.beefpoint.com.br/abiec-perfil-da-pecuaria-no-brasil/)

[3]
[https://www.globalmeatnews.com/Article/2018/01/18/Brazilian-...](https://www.globalmeatnews.com/Article/2018/01/18/Brazilian-
beef-exports-keep-on-growing)

~~~
fuzz4lyfe
If this is so inexpensive why not agree to pay producers the costs incurred
for not engaging in the practice plus a small fee if they don't engage in
deforestation? They would be stupid to turn down free money and given so many
people are concerned and the total amount being so low this measure could be
funded by donations easily. This could be handled in a few days if what you
say is true.

~~~
ratww
Because those people are operating outside the law. It's not as if we know who
they are.

It happens to be a crime here in Brazil to invade lands and burn preserved
areas. People should and have been arrested for it.

The deforestation is purely a political problem, this has nothing to do with
economics as you've tried to portray here.

\--

Btw, by "political problem" I mean that the government was outright saying
that the deforestation and fires "are normal" [1], or they're accusing NGOs of
starting the fires [2], or even denying external help to avoid the fires in
Amazon [3].

The current position of the government is different, however. Now is that the
fires should be stopped, and the army has been sent to Amazon to arrest
people. [4]

And that was thanks to both external and internal pressure. Why did it took so
long? Because there were too many criminal apologists trying to justify why
burning the country was needed. But it wasn't.

\---

[1] [https://noticias.uol.com.br/meio-ambiente/ultimas-
noticias/a...](https://noticias.uol.com.br/meio-ambiente/ultimas-noticias/ag-
estado/2019/09/05/incendios-na-amazonia-sao-normais-nesta-epoca-diz-ernesto-
araujo-para-cnn.htm)

[2] [https://noticias.uol.com.br/meio-ambiente/ultimas-
noticias/r...](https://noticias.uol.com.br/meio-ambiente/ultimas-
noticias/redacao/2019/08/21/bolsonaro-diz-que-ongs-podem-estar-por-tras-de-
queimadas-na-amazonia.htm)

[3] [https://noticias.uol.com.br/meio-ambiente/ultimas-
noticias/r...](https://noticias.uol.com.br/meio-ambiente/ultimas-
noticias/redacao/2019/08/29/bolsonaro-chama-de-esmola-ajuda-do-g7-para-
combater-queimadas-na-amazonia.htm)

[4] [https://exame.abril.com.br/brasil/exercito-
prende-63-pessoas...](https://exame.abril.com.br/brasil/exercito-
prende-63-pessoas-em-um-mes-por-queimadas-na-amazonia/)

------
smackay
While the basic message is probably true the way the article is so economical
with the facts that it rightly belongs in the trash.

The one example it cites is for a species of moth from the Balkans. Last time
I checked the Balkans were still part of Europe so this species of leaf-mining
moth could be expected to colonise more northerly parts of the continent as
the climate warmed. So no real surprises there. It's probably happened in the
past and yet we still have horse chestnut trees.

Other weasel sentences such as "The study said 42% of the 454 tree species in
Europe, which include some found elsewhere, could die out on the continent."
So "some found elsewhere". What percentage are found elsewhere? Where exactly
is elsewhere. Some species are probably very widespread indeed so losing a few
at the edges of their range are inconsequential.

The real story here is Europe's fragmented habitats means that a lot of trees
are going to have a hard time adjusting to climate change - there's nowhere to
go. Pollution puts a lot of stress on trees - remember acid rain? While there
is a real problem with imported insects, fungi, etc. none of that is
mentioned.

A lazy article, written by a lazy journalist who just threw in "extinction" to
spice things up and sow fear, doubt and uncertainly.

------
PeterStuer
On top of the 'natural' threats mentioned in the article there are two
specific EU policies that threaten trees in the EU even more.

The EU has a policy to get the member states to reach a certain percentage of
'renewables' in the energy basket or face stiff fines. So far so good.
However, commercial logging managed to get 'wood pellets' on the list of
'renewables'. The result? Forests and roadside trees are being 'harvested'
like there is no tomorrow because it helps meet the quota.

The EU set up a program for returning surfaces to more 'original' vegetation.
Much of Europe's forests in low forested areas are created 2 or 3 centuries
ago to serve as hunting grounds for the aristocracy. 'Nature' organizations
(pretend green lobbies in reality) are now strip cutting forests in the name
of 'planting more native species' and even 'landscape diversity' in regions
that barely have tree left. 'Coincidentally' raking in nice subsidies to do so
with a positive financial return, allowing them to buy more land to 'converse'
raking in more subsidies...

Yeah, I know you can see the excessive airquotes, but I'm mad as hell.

------
dghughes
An interesting point came up this past summer when discussing allergies in
cities. The trees that are planted in cities tend to be male since female
trees will bear fruit and are messy.

I wonder if the lack of diversity (yes even in trees!) is causing problems. If
there were a mix of male and female would trees be able to evolve or at least
grow more offspring.

------
gdubs
I consider myself somewhat of a permaculturist, but I try to stay pragmatic.
Genetically modified seeds are something we should be heavily looking into —
and people who care about the environment should support that research, rather
than shouting, “something, something, Monsanto.”

------
mrpopo
On another article, a user is wondering why there isn't a public uproar and
why isn't absolutely everyone writing to their representing politicians about
car rental companies ripping them off of 15€ for their Hamburg-Milan cross
country holiday family car trip. I dare everyone reading this to actually take
the time and write to their politicians to act against climate change and
urbanisation. Time is up already.

~~~
ginko
Why act against urbanisation? Making more people move to densely populated
cities is saving energy and natural resources.

~~~
mrpopo
I don't believe that cities in developed countries are becoming denser.
Rather, the commercial area per person is increasing.

~~~
icebraining
Even if true, they're still more dense and car-free than non-urban areas.
That's just a reason to advocate for increased density, not against
urbanization.

------
pl-94
Can anyone explain me what is the danger of losing 60% of the species? As soon
as we maintain the same volumes in tree, it is overall fine, isn't it?

~~~
scooble
While it probably isn't the main concern, different species produce lumber
with different properties. The loss of Elm trees in the uk removed a timber
that was very useful for boatbuilding, for example (thought that is a bit of a
niche concern).

~~~
nkurz
Wow, I hadn't known about that niche for elm! I searched because I unfairly
doubted you, and thought you might be confusing elm with some other tree.
Here's a comment thread that provides some more information:
[http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthread.php?212281-Elm-in-
boa...](http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthread.php?212281-Elm-in-boats)

