
“Reasons you shouldn't join us: if you're looking for work-life balance.” - macphisto178
https://twitter.com/passy/status/578541484464553984
======
kevinmchugh
I once had a job, where the CEO, during his monthly all-hands call, banned the
phrase 'work-life balance'. He talked about it as an invention of the
industrial revolution that applied only to sweatshop work. He was from a farm,
see, and on farms, you work until the work is done. The company, he told us,
never promised its employees work-life balance, and we should all stop talking
about it. We should work until the work is done, like farmers do.

The chatroom I was in at the time exploded with everyone posting the job
descriptions we currently had open, all of which boasted about the healthy
work-life balance our company offered.

Those job descriptions changed within a week, and I left within 2 months.

~~~
andreash
Is the company successful? Do you see any other positive sides the CEOs
working attitude?

------
uptown
Blockai:

[https://angel.co/blockai/jobs/32805-back-end-
engineer](https://angel.co/blockai/jobs/32805-back-end-engineer)

PRODUCT

Blockai is the first universal blockchain browser. A single platform for using
the best blockchain apps, with a bitcoin wallet and social identity to make it
simple to use.

We’re making it fun to explore and publish on the blockchain, visualized as a
filterable stream. The same way that Netscape took people into the world of
the web, and built open-source technologies to support its growth, we are
doing the same for the blockchain. Unlike Netscape, we have a clear path to
revenue with a bitcoin wallet built right in.

We anticipate 1,000s of amazing applications will be built on the blockchain
that will change the status quo of everything on the web. We want Blockai to
become the main way people experience those applications.

~~~
littletimmy
Wait $100k salary with 6% equity at max sounds not bad at all if you believe
in their idea. Although I highly doubt they're a once in a decade opportunity
that will be changing the world in a better way.

~~~
nhstanley
$100k in SF is laughable (for that kind of commitment). If you're not offering
$200k minimum, it's not even worth 60 seconds of consideration. Unless you
_really_ really believe in that 6%. But man you really shouldn't.

Edit: To back this up a little more:

To buy a median house in SF you need to make ~$142k.

[http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2015/03/08/m...](http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2015/03/08/map-
the-salary-you-need-to-buy-a-home-in-27-u-s-cities)

The 95th percentile in income is WAY higher in SF than anywhere else, and so
is the cost of living.

[https://twitter.com/conradhackett/status/578004292151341056](https://twitter.com/conradhackett/status/578004292151341056)

My opinion is that if you're not clearly putting me in a comfortable position
financially, why would I ever make such a sacrifice?

~~~
VanillaCafe
I'm a San Franciscan. $100k is indeed low, but $200k is an exaggeration.

~~~
Iftheshoefits
If it's an exaggeration then this industry's labor pool is in even worse shape
than I suspected.

To put this in context: I'd consider myself average, maybe slightly above in
some contexts, below in (many more) others, and my current salary (full-time,
all-in) is closer to $200k than $150k. The majority (about 80%) of that is
base salary, not "bonus", stocks/options, or benefits. If _I_ can get a
("senior developer" level, not management) job with that compensation, the
people in this valley who are much better than me (and that would be most, or
at least many, many others) ought to be able to command significantly more.

~~~
apta
Are you based in the Bay Area? Do you work at a large company (Google, Apple,
MS)?

~~~
Iftheshoefits
Yes to the first, no to the second (I would almost certainly not qualify for
the ones you listed--not for lack of talent, as I forgot more math by the time
I took my PhD qualifying exams than most CS graduates ever learn, but for
other reasons).

It is my second job in this area, and I'm a bit (~15%) better compensated this
time than last.

~~~
apta
Start up then? :)

------
dropit_sphere
One reason _for_ working for them sounds less abusive, but more...stupid.

"You're one of the best front-end engineers you've ever known."

No, dickwad, that's a reason _you_ should hire _me_. What it really means, of
course, is: "We use the rash pride of inexperienced developers to set
expectations sky-high, then justify the low salary when they turn out not to
be the lovechild of Brendan Eich and Mike Bostock."

------
some_furry
Another reason: "You're primarily interested with salary."

Sounds like this company prides itself on overworking their employees and
paying them less than what they're worth.

(Which is what a lot of companies _do_ , but they aren't proud of it.)

~~~
akuma73
Employers pay their employees exactly what they're worth - by definition.

If an employee is dissatisfied with their pay, they have the option to either
negotiate a higher salary or find another job with higher pay.

~~~
gipp
There's a tremendous amount of idealization involved there -- that the cost of
renegotiation/finding a new job is zero (it's not), that no systematic effects
outside the market exist lowering salaries (they do), etc.

As an _approximation_ , employees are paid what they're worth. It's an
approximation, not definitional.

~~~
tiagocesar
Nuff said.

------
mc32
Gotta give them credit for being "honest". Of course it plays off on people
wanting to appear as eager and not workshy, but this is pretty sadist and I
imagine the company is being a bit masochistic in this job market.

Who in their right minds would work for people who openly espouse overwork and
aggressive work environment? I'd like a follow up on their ability to retain
workers, provided they don't get "reeducated" in the process.

I can't see how this could appeal to anyone beside new male graduates in a bit
of a bind and have some latent sadist tendencies. Or people looking for
sponsorship and might put up with this ridiculousness.

~~~
zamalek
> Who in their right minds would work for people who openly espouse overwork
> and aggressive work environment?

The screencap doesn't have an experience requirement so I am guessing fresh
graduates and/or those who never got a BSC and are desperate. We're all
laughing at the posting because we probably have had the misfortune to work at
a place like that, or know someone who has. There are people who will fall
into this type of trap and sadly it's the people who can't afford to.

------
littletimmy
I'm curious to know what is this company that is a "once in a decade"
opportunity "to change the world for the better".

Is there a limit to this ridiculousness? What's next? "Join our company
because it is literally the only path to salvation. Seriously, your life is
worthless if you pass this up." Boom... now your company is a cult.

~~~
code_chimp
[https://angel.co/blockai/jobs/32804-front-end-
engineer](https://angel.co/blockai/jobs/32804-front-end-engineer)

------
ryandvm
Run as fast as you can in the other direction of this job listing.

It's bad enough trying to manage a work-life balance at a company that claims
to support it. I can't imagine how hellish it would be to work at a company
that consciously scoffs at it.

------
matt_morgan
We're all talking about what we would do when seeing this job post, but the
issue isn't how many thousands of us wouldn't apply, but how many dozens
would. And it's easy enough to test response rates to these things. I.e., as
much as it turns off many of us it might turn on a few people, and they may
even have some evidence that this approach works. No clue whether they did or
didn't, but they can always post it again if they don't get applicants they
like.

There's no point in debating what we like when they can get the right answer
with confidence via testing.

------
chojeen
Why would anyone ever take a job like this when there are tons of interesting
jobs that actually _do_ have work-life balance and pay a hell of a lot better?
Hell, you could still work long 6-day weeks if you wanted to, but at least
that way you would have the option of taking a break.

~~~
sp332
Like what?

~~~
freehunter
My job. Sitting at home in my pajamas, in a place a hell of lot cheaper than
SF, making about the same amount these guys are offering (according to a link
someone posted further up). I think I'll go for a walk at lunch, and keep
working from the nature preserve down the road because it's a nice day. And
when my wife gets home, 90% of the time the laptop closes and I'm off the
clock.

If you can't imagine a job paying $100k+ that lets you also have a life,
you're not looking hard enough. Or maybe I'm just lucky to not be a
programmer.

~~~
sp332
It is tough. What do you do that's so valuable?

~~~
s54b32dd
I'm (obviously) not the person you're replying to, but information security,
financial analyst, systems analyst (ok, some basic programming skill
required), systems architect, IT audit all come to mind. That's just within
the scope of the jobs I've been asked to interview for within the last 3-4
months. I'm a CISSP with a couple years of infosec consulting & audit
experience; I can read/write SQL, and that's about it, in terms of
programming.

That said, I understand large-scale organizational infrastructure and am
current on the organizational concepts associated with building & mainaining a
large-scale IT environment, so that's what I bring to the table as an
employee. I work 40-45 hours in an average week, and the glassdoor box charts
for positions with my skill set are typically between $80k and $130k,
depending on experience and the company you choose to work for in my region.

~~~
sp332
Does that kind of auditing job tend to be freelance, or for a
consultancy/agency?

~~~
freehunter
In my personal experience, you don't tend to be too successful doing freelance
security consulting unless you have a lot of certifications and you're aiming
at very small companies. Bigger organizations will go with PWC, even if you're
half the price.

------
imroot
I had a company effectively tell me the same thing -- that taking their job
would be disastrous for my hobbies/family ("We work from 10AM until 11PM most
days, and later on Friday and Saturday") and then gave me a salary formula
that would bring me down to making less than half of what I was currently
making.

I politely declined -- and am still getting emails from them once a week
saying that they'd love to have me on their team and if I reconsider, please
let them know.

~~~
jazzyk
Then they will complain about "lack of skilled people to fill jobs"...

------
abuehrle
So don't work for this company? Sometimes people live and breathe the work
they do, and are looking for others who will as well. It's up to you to decide
whether you want to participate in what they're doing.

~~~
Iftheshoefits
See, the trouble is there are people in this industry who would work at this
place, and that contributes to lower wages and poorer working conditions.
Sure, I won't work there but the fact that others will has an impact on me at
least indirectly. I think that's sufficient reason to call out this kind of
job/company for the bullshit it is.

~~~
mkoryak
Isn't that kind of like saying that those guys who always stay past 6pm or
come in before 8am are assholes?

~~~
lmm
Damn right they are, if they're doing it without pay. Any union would put a
stop to that. A shame America's "temporarily embarrassed millionaires" are
unwilling to act in their own interest.

------
kleer001
Is this like a date who says "You shouldn't be in a relationship with me
because I'm a hot mess." ?

------
ashwinaj
Maybe I'm in the minority with my opinion. This is pretty common in most
startups in Silicon Valley (it is true in the one I'm working for currently).
You usually have an option of getting a less pay, more equity or higher pay,
less equity. It is assumed that you won't have much of a work-life balance,
but some would like to spell it out clearly. Nobody forced me into this, I
chose it because I wanted to work with brilliant people (I'm not saying there
aren't any in established companies) and roll the dice and see where it goes.

I really don't see how this is so controversial when there is a chance,
however small, that there could be a big windfall if things fall into place.
For someone who values work-life balance, they should look to join an
established company.

------
serve_yay
At least they're coming out and saying it.

------
wingchen
Don't even think they will respect you in any other way other than work-life
balance. That's something I learned through hard lessons.

Life is too short to work for crazy bosses. Most of them think they are Steve
Jobs, but in reality, they are just another slave driver.

