
Ask HN: Are you friends with your manager? - aurbano
I’m intrigued by the psychology of the relationship between managers and directs.<p>For instance, can it ever be the same as it can be if you didn’t work together for?<p>Do you instead maintain a layer of “professional distance”, that means you won’t ever be as close?<p>I imagine it could just depend exclusively on the personality each has...
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Jemaclus
I get a long fantastically with my manager. We do happy hours every other
Friday. I'd probably invite him to a BBQ at my house or something like that.
But I don't think I consider him a friend. That said, I _am_ friends with some
of my old managers, and (as a manager) with some of my old employees.

For current, active working relationships? Nope. We keep that professional
distance. Once we no longer work together, I'm open to closer relationships
with them. It usually doesn't happen, though.

The truth of the matter is that the thing most of us have in common with one
another is that we work together, and once that's no longer true, there's just
not that much more to the relationship, and so we inevitably drift apart.

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yibg
I'm the same way. I'm friends with previous managers and reports but I try to
keep current ones professional. Even if there are no playing favorites I want
to avoid any perception of playing favorites for myself, my reports and my
managers.

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mathieuh
I think it’s dangerous to be friends with bosses, it can cause you to lose
perspective on what the relationship between you and your work actually is:
you sell your labour, usually for far less than it is worth to the company.

I believe it is healthier to have a stark perspective on what is actually
happening in employer/employee relationships, and keep work as something that
I do in order to be able to afford a place to live and food to eat and nothing
more. Whether I enjoy whatever job I have at the time is secondary to this:
it’s a bonus, but again I try very hard not to let my job become a part of how
I see myself.

If you let yourself become “friends” with your boss I think you’re in danger
of blurring these lines and getting into the strange position where not only
must you do something you don’t necessarily want to do, but you must do it or
let a “friend” down. This seems like a fast-track way of burning out.

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sokoloff
I _hope_ that I'm selling my labor to my company for less than it's worth.
Otherwise, I've put a giant target on my back for elimination. The company is
taking a risk by employing me and paying me no matter what I produce; I don't
mind at all at they make a profit on the transaction and seek to keep it that
way.

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arkitaip
How does that mentality serve you when it's time to negotiate your salary or
benefits?

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restingrobot
IF you're worth way more than you're getting paid, negotiations should be
super easy. This is probably a terrible analogy, but think of working like
mining diamonds and the employer like selling cut stones. If you mine huge
diamonds with fairly regular frequency asking to get paid more is a no brainer
for you and the company.

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jkchu
I think the major hangup for this discussion is that each of us probably have
a different definition of what counts as a friend. I think there's certainly a
gradient between "friendly" and "friend", but I honestly don't think the exact
label matters much. For the sake of my discussion, I will consider a "friend"
someone that I would want to hang out with 1-on-1.

But I think there are certain boundaries that both sides must be respectful
of. For example, as a manager you need to make it clear to your
employee/friend when you are communicating as a manager vs as a friend. That
distinction should not be left ambiguous as that will make things potentially
awkward if there is a disconnect.

As an employee, you need to respect that fact that your manager cannot tell
you everything, and understanding that being their friend doesn't mean they
will give you any special treatment. You should be extra careful to avoid
this, as your manager will be sensitive if they notice you are trying to take
advantage of the friendship in any way.

In the end, I think these boundaries can cause the friendship to not progress
past a certain point if you are actively working together, mainly because it
is just extra work to move past a certain level of friendship if so.

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aurbano
I think you’ve nailed it.

It’s something that’s possible, but very difficult and it requires a lot of
additional work to keep it going and progress the friendship.

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baron816
I like to think of my manager as working for me, rather than the other way
around. I never receive orders from them, nor do I feel I need to impress or
“perform” for them. But, they do have go out and find information for me, or
do stuff to unblock me. Plus, it’s their responsibility to keep me around and
keep me happy. At the very least, it’s a partnership, so that makes it easier
to have a personal relationship.

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rdtwo
Absolutely agree it’s a partnership where both succeed together. If things are
working well my manager is busting his but to promote me and I’m busting mine
to make him look good so he can get his promotion.

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sabellito
I've been a manager for only 7 years now, but so far I've actively avoided
managing personal friends.

Good work colleagues, having a pint after work once in a while, sure. But I
wouldn't manage people I spend time with on the weekends.

I can easily see myself either being too harsh on them to compensate, or
inadvertently giving them a pass instead of feedback when necessary.

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loopz
There are places where people are more friends, even with their managers.
Sometimes it cannot be avoided. It can be great or bad. Great is rare, and
managers cracking the whip makes people work harder, not smarter. If I get the
choice, I prefer being friendly with eachother. There's no need to be mean,
and there are ways to convey messages without condescending arrogance or
unsolicited advice. Being friendly means a safe space to lift spirits and
spread new ways of working and thinking. If you think somewhat similarly, you
can even be allies and play to eachother's strengths. If your manager cannot
ally with you, you should seriously consider finding somewhere else that got
your back. Don't lean on it though. It can be gone in an instant, and you
should stand on your own feet as much as you can.

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stevekemp
I suspect things are different, where I've been (UK, and Finland). But I'd
expect to become friends with colleagues, take children on playdates, etc.

Often times colleagues will go for beer after work, especially on Fridays, and
otherwise hang out at lunchtimes. Here in Finland I've sat naked in a sauna
with upper-management, drinking beer, and relaxing.

Sure they're often not the people I'd expect to become friends with, but by
virtue of having similar interests and spending a lot of time together you'll
often have good relationships - not distant-ones - with colleagues.

(It is worth noting, for example, just how many romantic relationships start
in the workplace ..)

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jnwatson
Yep. Last four jobs. In 3 of them, we were friends beforehand. Almost got
hired by a fifth.

Huh I just noticed I have a tendency to work for friends.

It is much like a marriage. There’s stuff that has to get done, and you have
to work together to get it done. And like marriage, moving on can be tricky.

Trickier is befriending higher-ups. Keeping confidences is important when you
know before your boss does.

I’m still friends with 2 of the 3 former bosses, so it is possible to maintain
a relationship.

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skim_milk
I have an interesting professional and personal relationship with the boss -
he secured me a contract with one of his clients so not only do we have a 9-5
together, but also work for the same client in the afternoon. Personally we're
fairly close and like to talk about deep, risky topics you'd normally reserve
for close friends although we only get together maybe once a month.

I sometimes wonder if professional distancing/shyness varies by region in the
USA and the world - mine seems to lack all professional distance compared to
my coastal peers. Someone I know worked in Brazil and they seem to go the
extreme end of shunning distance with professional peers - traveling long
distances to go their subordinates' weddings and such.

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ljw1001
All human relations are increasingly subject to the criteria of «is it good
for the corporation?». Or, is it good for me financially. Which, considering
how work is increasingly central to our lives is unfortunate. We’re Charlie
Chaplin in Modern Times without the factory.

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chrisbennet
I'm friends with _everyone_ I know, including my managers, if I've had some
sort of extended contact. I went kayaking with my last manager for instance.
I've even made friends during interviews (where I didn't take the job).

I've had "managers" that I've only talked to once a month that I didn't become
friends with but that's to be expected.

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codezero
A good manager needs to be able to have really hard conversations, including
firing people.

It's great to be close, but it's important both people are fully aware of the
power dynamic, and that it is real.

Your manager should be like a coach on a sporting team (in more ways than one)
- you can go hang out after the game, but during practice they will wear you
down. The important point here is the context - it's when and where.

Also, keep in mind, your job is just your job, and people are more important
than a job. You'll have other jobs, and other managers, so if you value the
friendship, go for it.

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notyourwork
I've always taken the stance that I don't mix personal and work. That way I
have a clean separation between the two. Rough days at work, I can shift focus
to a different social circle. However, a few years ago I joined a team and we
all got along too well. It became a group of friends that worked and played
together. It was great in so many ways and after 2 years we all parted ways.

I doubt I'll ever experience something like it again and we still are friends
but we all wish we had a team dynamic like we used to have.

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softbiz
Wrote a blog post on this a while back[0]. Short answer: no, not friends with
my manager, nor my subordinates. We get along great, and have a good time at
work-social events, but that's the end.

[0] [https://softbiz.io/posts/why-i-am-not-facebook-friends-
with-...](https://softbiz.io/posts/why-i-am-not-facebook-friends-with-
employees-or-my-boss)

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restingrobot
I disagree with a lot the points in your article. The things you listed as
cons with having office "friends" all sound like things no real "friend" would
do. I don't generally use social media, so maybe I don't understand that
aspect, but honestly if someone came to work and gossiped about me, they
wouldn't be considered a friend. This article seems to specifically mean
Facebook friends so I guess my opinion isn't super relevant as I don't use
Facebook.

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cmwelsh
I prefer to work for managers who recognize me as a person who can grow in the
team. I get a lot of support because I foster a relationship that our combined
success is important. Is this friendship? No. But it’s worked out very well.
We both have our own friends. However, I haven’t ruled it out - we just aren’t
a good match (often there are gaps between us in life stage).

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tootie
I'm friends with some ex-managers as well as my ex-reports. I've hired reports
to new companies when I moved before. I still talk to them over text/slack
since our department dissolved in the recession. I was hoping I'd be in a
position to hire them all at a new place by now, but it hasn't worked out.

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iends
My current manager was a peer until we decided to combine teams and for me to
back to more of an IC role.

It's been weird for me ever since. Not friends. In fact, sometimes I've felt
he's had the exact opposite of my interest at heart.

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piercebot
Yes, I consider myself friends with my manager.

I also consider myself friends with 2 of my 5 direct reports.

These are people that I've known for half a decade or more, though. Also, I
think the manager aspect came after the friendship aspect in most cases.

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emerged
I suppose you can't really answer that question for sure until you're fired.
Do you still feel like friends? Then you are friends.

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booleandilemma
I’m not friends with my boss, nor do I want to be.

I have a coworker who regularly chats with our boss on social media and it
bothers me.

I feel like it’s the road to nepotism.

~~~
rdtwo
And it is and it will will work in his favor

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lazyant
You cannot be truly friends with someone when there's an imbalance of power.

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fmakunbound
I'm good friends while I'm getting raises.

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gorpomon
Your relationship should ideally be convivial, fun, mutually informative and
beneficial for you both. You should be getting both guidance navigating your
company's politics from your manager, and overall career growth by working on
their team. Sometimes they won't be technically stronger than you, but in
those cases they should be helping you grow in other ways (giving talks,
mentoring others, taking on leadership tasks). In cases where they are
technically more proficient you should be learning from them, perhaps not
actively but at least they're pointing you in the right direction. During all
this you're enjoying spending time working with this person professionally.

In return what you offer your manager is someone who's capable of doing work
and becoming increasingly capable of working with less direction. Eventually
you take ownership of initiatives. You should advocate for your team where
appropriate, but never fanatically. You should be brave enough to speak up if
you're worried about their course of action.

The main dynamic is this: In return for them helping you grow and navigate,
you're trying your best to be someone who's self-sufficient, capable and
someone they don't have to worry about.

There are a few things you should definitely not be doing. You shouldn't be
spending too much time with them outside of work (an occasional happy hour or
office event is a-ok). You shouldn't be getting drunk with them. You shouldn't
be getting counseling or guidance on intensely personal issues like romantic
relationships or personal life goals. Your relationship should pass a simple
smell test: if you were to tell someone you were engaging in a behavior with
your boss would they be shocked or surprised. If so it's probably not
appropriate. Here's an example: "I eat lunch with my boss a few times a week."
Seems fine to me. "I've eaten lunch with my boss every day for the last six
months" Seems a bit off to me. Of course different people will have different
limits-- it's up to you to set healthy boundaries that work for you.

Finally, when one of you moves on from the company, feel free to have any type
of relationship you want with the manager. You're both now two independent
people. I would still overall caution from becoming too intimate with them,
but it's your life and you should trust yourself to steward it correctly. The
reason I caution is that it's because you really don't know this person on a
deeper level, and you might be surprised with what you find out. Most likely
you'll maintain some professional friendship, perhaps even help each other out
for several years, but after that lose touch. Ideally, you'll always look back
on working with this person as a time of great fun, enjoyment and growth.

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goatinaboat
A manager who is your friend is either a bad manager or a bad friend. One day
he will have to decide between you and his own managers interests.

~~~
bpodgursky
This really gravely misunderstands how teams are formed in a lot of growing
companies.

5 new engineers start fresh out of college. They work directly under some VP
of engineering. They become friends, as young people of like interests who
work together every day are wont to do.

The company grows! Now you need to organize into an actual team. So someone
becomes a team lead, and others stay ICs.

Do they now divorce themselves of friendship, since one is a manager and the
others are not? No, that's stupid. They are friends where one is a manager.

Source: myself, and hundreds of thousands of other people who have been
friends with their manager.

~~~
rdtwo
And the friends get benefits, that’s life as much as people here don’t want to
admit it, life ain’t fair that way.

