

The Decline of marriage? - trustfundbaby
http://pewresearch.org/pubs/1802/decline-marriage-rise-new-families

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bobf
It seems interesting that they identify people as moving from historically
marrying for "financial stability" towards marrying for love, yet divorce
rates have increased. Although it is perhaps slightly counterintuitive, I
think it actually makes a lot of sense. If you are relying on a spouse for
financial stability, you are more likely to stick it out through the hard
times of a marriage. Love is a bit more fickle.

~~~
oldgregg
Financial stability vs. love is a false dichotomy. You could also say that
shift is from Community & Family Commitment to Emotionally Driven Radical
Autonomy. Read Bowling Alone by Robert Putnam or look at what "love" marriages
are doing in India.

In the 60's everyone was casting off (often shitty) cultural restraints, but
it was an _overcorrection_ that was almost completely narcissistic. Suddenly
you have no fault divorce and a culture that increasingly doesn't view that as
a problem. Fast forward 40 years and my generation is largely self-serving
paxil-popping automatons. :-)

Facebook brings us together but it ultimately doesn't make us really sacrifice
for each other. That's an infinitely harder problem that technology will
probably never solve.

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duck
_The share of births to unmarried women has risen dramatically over the past
half century, from 5% in 1960 to 41% in 2008. There are notable differences by
race: Among black women giving birth in 2008, 72% were unmarried. This
compares with 53% of Hispanic women giving birth and 29% of white women._

That blew me away... I would of never guessed it was that high.

~~~
sokoloff
Similarly (though sort of in the opposite direction), I was shocked to see
that 32% of respondents reported that "Premarital sex is wrong"

I would have expected about half of that, at most.

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hasenj
I'm not really surprised all that much. Having moved from the middle east to
north america, the culture is so different that I'm surprised marriage is
still practiced over here.

Marriage is mostly a social construct but a large part of it is also religious
in nature. In large part it serves to conserve the tradition and culture of
society or a community.

As social relationships become less centered on family bonds, marriage will
weaken. And as western societies become less and less religious, there's less
motivation for any couple to get married.

This is not even unintentional. I think at the heart of the feminist movement
lies a belief that marriage is a tool devised by society to control women, or
something of that sort.

~~~
capstone
_I think at the heart of the feminist movement lies a belief that marriage is
a tool devised by society to control women._

Why do you think that? As far as I know, the feminist movement is a part of a
greater civil rights movement focused on equal political, economic, and social
rights regardless of race, religion, sexual orientation, and yes, in the
particular case of feminism, gender. What makes you say that feminism is
mainly focused on destroying marriage?

On a separate anecdotal note, I grew up in the former Soviet Union where
religion was largely absent and yet marriage was very strong.

~~~
hasenj
Ah, I didn't say they're set on destroying marriage.

For all I could tell, they couldn't care less.

But from what I understand, they have this notion of the "patriarchal society"
where the males control everything, including language, and gender roles, and
everything else. It's obvious that marriage is a byproduct of this patriarchal
structure.

I've heard a certain feminist (who happens to be married) say on TV that
marriage is an old and failed system that we should get rid of. I think this
is not too inconsistent with what the western culture(s) subconsciously
believe.

The point of marriage is the creation of families in a social structure where
pre-martial sex is strongly frowned upon, and where the social network is
built mostly on top the "family" unit.

In the west, pre-martial sex is rather encouraged, and the social structure is
_not_ built on top of the "family" unit.

~~~
MichaelSalib
_I've heard a certain feminist (who happens to be married) say on TV that
marriage is an old and failed system that we should get rid of._

There are over 6 billion people on Earth. Many of those people are just
insane. And television shows have an incentive to bring on the real nuts in
order to keep things exciting. As such, the fact that you heard one
representative from group X go on TV and say something nutty doesn't allow you
to make any inferences about what the median person in group X actually
believes.

 _I think this is not too inconsistent with what the western culture(s)
subconsciously believe._

Strange. If western culture "subconsciously believes that marriage is a failed
system that should be disposed of", then I don't see why marriage is (1) held
in high esteem and (2) heavily subsidized. I mean, when I got married,
everyone I knew was delighted and no one told me "this is a terrible idea --
marriage is a failed system". Why would the government give me money once I
got married if there was a social consensus that marriage is a failed system?

The problem with asserting things about an entire society's "subconscious
beliefs" is that your assertions are impossible to refute. Which suggests that
these assertions are meaningless garbage.

~~~
hasenj
Calm down. I'm not trying to attack anyone, just stating what I'm observing.
I'm not saying anything about whether or not it's morally right or wrong.

While I agree that person I heard from on TV is a nut, she's a rather
prominent figure among the feminist movement in the middle east (Nawal El
Saadawi).

In the west, marriage is the last step after a long long relationship. In the
middle east, it tends to be the first step. This already suggests that
marriage is much less important than it used to be, and I can only see it
getting less and less important as time goes on.

~~~
MichaelSalib
_Calm down._

I think your arguments would be more convincing if you spent less time
worrying about other people's emotional states and more time making claims
that are testable.

I note that you haven't disputed my point that claims about what entire
societies subconsciously believe are meaningless since you can't prove
anything about them.

 _While I agree that person I heard from on TV is a nut, she's a rather
prominent figure among the feminist movement in the middle east (Nawal El
Saadawi)._

Um, how do you know? It seems like you've never actually read any feminist
writings...am I wrong? And it also seems like you've never discussed feminism
with any actual living feminists. So how exactly would you know how well this
one person on TV represents living breathing feminists?

 _In the west, marriage is the last step after a long long relationship. In
the middle east, it tends to be the first step._

I've read this half a dozen times and I still can't figure out what it means.

~~~
hasenj
We studied feminism briefly in a Communications course I took at the
University, the prof (female) was very sympathetic of the feminist movement. I
didn't make up the notion of the patriarchal society.

> I've read this half a dozen times and I still can't figure out what it
> means.

When a man and a woman fall in love, the first thing they try to do in a
traditional/conservative society is to try and get married. In the west, the
first thing they do is go out together, make out, have sex, maybe move in and
live together for years and have children without ever officially getting
married.

Unless you want to say this only happens in F.R.I.E.N.D.S but not in real
life.

~~~
MichaelSalib
_We studied feminism briefly in a Communications course I took at the
University, the prof (female) was very sympathetic of the feminist movement. I
didn't make up the notion of the patriarchal society._

I didn't claim you made it up; but your presentation doesn't strike me as very
accurate. In particular, "It's obvious that marriage is a byproduct of this
patriarchal structure" seems wrongheaded. Marriage is a social institution;
that means that the structure of marriage reflects the existing power
structures in society.

Even in the most egalitarian societies, like Sweden, people still get married
in great numbers. What's more, many of those who don't get married in fact do
get married in all but name: they live together like a married couple
indefinitely. Since there are often few benefits to explicit marriage, their
choice represents little more than a willingness to forgo a religious
ceremony. But it shouldn't surprise us that people in very secular countries
decide to avoid big religious ceremonies; that's just common sense.

 _When a man and a woman fall in love, the first thing they try to do in a
traditional/conservative society is to try and get married. In the west, the
first thing they do is go out together, make out, have sex, maybe move in and
live together for years and have children without ever officially getting
married._

As I understand it, a great number of unmarried couples in traditional
societies make out and have sex; the big difference is that they sneak around
when doing so. But if you like, we can pretend that everyone in traditional
societies actually strictly observes all their social norms.

Moreover, a great many people in western countries get married and stay
married for many years. It seems silly to pretend that they don't exist. Your
claims would be more persuasive if they were backed up by numbers.

------
michaelchisari
I don't particularly care for the institution of marriage, although I will say
that I think weddings are tons of fun, and the only issue I have with the
decline in marriages is that I don't get to go to very many of them.

~~~
burgerbrain
The loss of another socially acceptable reason to drink in public is always a
sad occurrence.

~~~
pjscott
Have you considered celebrating obscure holidays? I know some Americans who
celebrate Guy Fawkes' Day just because it gives them an excuse to have a party
and burn someone in effigy.

If you get some friends on board and act like what you're doing is perfectly
normal, you probably won't be hassled about drinking in public. Everyone will
assume that you're _supposed_ to be doing whatever it is you're doing.

~~~
tyrmored
Hell, if you can get enough like-minded friends into it, just make up your own
holiday.

------
djcapelis
Not just this, but I've noticed a lot of my friends that _are_ married are in
open marriages, which seems to be the trend I've noticed more than marrying
less.

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duck
Marriage, like many things include software, is only as good as the foundation
that it is built on. I have no doubt that my wife and I will ever get a
divorce. It just isn't an option. I've seen others who hold the same belief
and through very hard times they don't change when it comes to that... and in
the end their marriage is even better than before. I've seen the same with us
as well.

I have no problem if people don't want to get married, but if you do, I wish
more couples would discuss that _before_ they get hitched.

------
steveklabnik
I don't plan on getting married, unless a few key things come up. One big one
is insurance, the second is hospital visitation rights, and the third is tax
benefits.

Other than that, I think it's pretty archaic. Also note I don't want
children... that might affect such things, too.

~~~
tptacek
In what sense is marriage "archaic"?

The bond of family is unlike any other bond.

Friendships, business partnerships, strategic alliances, romances, all of them
are transient in ways that family is not.

But the family you're born with is a happenstance. Apart from marriage and
adoption, what other discretionary act allows two adults to create a new,
deliberate familial bond?

I don't want to get too "no true Scotsman" about this; I accept that there is
divorce (partly because we've embraced divorce as a culture, partly because
we've embraced casual marriage as a culture, and yes, partly because as a
society we have rightly grown out of practices that secured marriage, such as
single-income households) and failed marriage.

But marriage as a concept has a clear, practical value. It's more challenging
to realize the concept in 2010 than it was in 1910, but that doesn't mean the
concept itself is outdated.

~~~
steveklabnik
I guess I just don't feel the need for such an actual act. Take my current
situation: I've been seeing this girl for about three years now, it's my third
2+ year relationship, and it's going exceptionally well. We live together, we
have a joint bank account... why bother getting married? It doesn't change the
way that either of us feel about each other. Not only that, but marriage
implies a few things about our relationship that are simply not true.

The only value it actually holds is getting certain benefits from
organizations that are still structured around the idea that a man and a woman
end up loving each other very much, and decided to be together forever. That's
the concept I'm talking about when I mean it's 'outdated,' I think that the
vast majority of relationships won't actually last forever, nor should they.

~~~
tptacek
So, you're not married. Family bonds last forever. Deep and lasting
friendships do not. Just because marriage is valuable doesn't mean everyone
should be married.

Home ownership is also a good thing. Clearly, everyone should _not_ be buying
houses; even if you have the means, it often makes the best economic sense to
rent. But neighborhoods are still built on a foundation of homeowners.

There is a notion that everyone should own a home. There is a notion that
everyone should be married. Those notions are what is archaic.

~~~
maxawaytoolong
Family bonds do not last forever.

~~~
tptacek
I agree only to an extent that leaves a gap unresolveable without a nerdy
dorm-room argument.

~~~
maxawaytoolong
I have no idea what that is supposed to mean, but good, I guess...

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maukdaddy
This is the saddest comment thread I've read on HN.

I had no idea geeks were so against marriage.

