
Neil Armstrong's reply to a Moon landing skeptic - omarchowdhury
https://kottke.org/20/06/teacher-tells-off-neil-armstrong-for-faking-the-moon-landing
======
ceilingcorner
_They would have you believe that the United States Government perpetrated a
gigantic fraud on its citizenry._

Well, it certainly wouldn’t be the first time that happened, by any
government. The “Weapons of Mass Destruction” lie could be described using the
exact same sentence, and that wasn’t even twenty years ago.

Not defending the moon landing doubters, or conspiracy theorists in general,
but: the proper response to these things isn’t to point and laugh. It’s to
recognize their origins - a (often justified) loss of trust in institutions
and governmental narratives - and work on addressing and fixing them.

Edit: commenters seem to be focusing on a single example, which I presented as
an illustrative point for a much deeper and more important phenomenon. You’re
missing the forest for the trees.

~~~
mav3rick
Oh and didn't the WMD fraud come out internally ? Tell me one NASA or JPL
scientist officially on the mission who is claiming that it was fake ?

Stop being contrarian for the sake of it .

~~~
ceilingcorner
As I said, I’m not defending the moon landing doubters. But it seems obvious
to me that the recent increase in conspiracy theories is a direct result of
unethical institutional and government actions coming to light.

~~~
tgv
Like flat earth and anti-vax? To me, it seems more obvious that that's the
effect of attention and manipulation in media, both "classic" and social.

A suspicious attitude institutions has always existed: from the government
down to the grocer, who pushes the scales down while weighing. The more the
attention is drawn towards it, the greater the suspicion gets, and I feel that
especially divisive attention feeds suspicion. When behavior of an
institution, such as the Trump administration, is not beyond reproach, it
feeds the attention cycle.

~~~
ceilingcorner
The Flat Earth thing makes no sense to me, but regarding Anti-Vax: again, not
defending them, but it’s trivially easy to find examples of governments
(worldwide) deceptively giving people medicine which had a negative effect on
their health, whether as experimentation, sterilization, or otherwise. The
fact that vaccines are scientifically known to be safe is just lost in the
noise.

I attribute the rise of conspiracy theories to an overabundance of
information; doing the research on each individual topic is just overwhelming
to the average person and subsequently a simplistic conspiracy theory has
appeal.

~~~
api
My pet theory on the flat Earth is that it's been pushed in order to compile
lists of extremely gullible people by scraping social media so that these
lists can be used later. For what? Who knows. Targets of scams, marketing,
propaganda...

~~~
bcrl
Nah, some AI just figured out it was an easy way to get more clicks on
YouTube.

------
mullingitover
Armstrong's exact argument about the vast numbers conspirators that would be
required to keep perfect secrecy is exactly what I use when people try to
claim that the coronavirus is some kind of hoax or that there's some kind of
conspiracy about vaccines.

Have you ever tried to get thousands of people to cooperate on anything, let
alone perpetuate a massive lie, when they have nothing to gain personally from
doing so?

~~~
mihaifm
They don't have to lie. You can have 90% of those 400k people do legit work,
but still fake the landing. Maybe they built the rocket but encountered some
technical bottleneck and had to fake the landing. Not a skeptic myself, but
the argument that 400k people needed to keep a secret is pretty weak.

~~~
publicrootkey
If the moon landing was indeed infeasible from a technical perspective at that
time, those people would know, that their designs were inadequate or flawed.
The "some people might think they do legit work" argument doesn't really hold,
because they would either know it was an impossible feat, or it would possible
and no need to fake the landing.

------
wintorez
I read it somewhere that the best way to respond to conspiracy theorist is to
make a more outlandish claim:

\- Moon landing was fake.

\- You believe in the Moon?!

~~~
moksly
The best way is to use the Socratic method, if you have a lot of time. If you
throw enough wilful ignorance, compliments, kindness, genuine interest and an
endless amount of questions at someone, you’ll eventually get them arguing
with them selves. It’s really the only way to move someone, because you’re not
really convincing them of anything, they are doing that themselves.

Of course in the modern day and age, such a conversation is rarely going to
happen.

~~~
Melting_Harps
> The best way is to use the Socratic method, if you have a lot of time. If
> you throw enough wilful ignorance, compliments, kindness, genuine interest
> and an endless amount of questions at someone, you’ll eventually get them
> arguing with them selves. It’s really the only way to move someone, because
> you’re not really convincing them of anything, they are doing that
> themselves.

That's probably the most succinct description of rhetoric using the Socratic
method I have seen to date; highlighting the way its used in effective
discourse is as a guide to a conclusion rather than an argument. Very well
put.

> Of course in the modern day and age, such a conversation is rarely going to
> happen.

Agreed. But even in Plato's time this was rare, too. Which is why The Republic
was written the way that it was: a Philosophical discourse approached with
this method in mind told via (hypothetical?) dialogue(s) amongst other
Philosophers and eventually members of the State to reveal a premise that most
could arrive on their own with enough inquiry as to the onerous Nature of the
State--even in it's ideal portrayal of the coming Golden Age of the Hellenic
Era ushered in by Alexander--and 'good.'

It could have been written merely as proofs with the elucidation of its
applications and usecases, as was typical of the time, but instead it took the
time to navigate the reader on the likely rebuttals and discourses one may
encounter when exploring the Nature of the topic.

To this day I think it stands the time as the most seminal work(s) on
Anarchism, it took me 5 readings of all of the books: the first being when I
was a sophomore in High School still exploring the ideology and the last being
after the death of Grothendieck. Which is probably contrary to what Plato
wanted as he himself was an aristocrat who benefited greatly due to his status
and standing in Athenian Society that was only possible because of the
centralized power of the Athenian-Polis.

All of Plato's work before or since were not comparable and Diogenes, who
Plato referred to as 'Socrates gone mad' but also one of the most dedicated
Moral Ethicists to have ever existed in my view, was there to remind him of
the futility of it.

------
dreamcompiler
What gets me most about these fools is they completely ignore how much such a
huge fake job would cost. It would be so expensive that you could cut the
budget in half and just...go to the moon.

~~~
jodrellblank
Why would faking it with a soundstage and some actors in a room, and some
small models, cost so much more? A big budget Hollywood film like James Bond
Moonraker (1979) was 1/1000th the cost of the Apollo program, and with no
famous actors/actresses, simpler script, TV quality, surely a fake would be
cheaper than that?

If someone thought it was fake, they ought to be asking where the budget
really went and whose pockets it lined.

~~~
Rapzid
Because all of the technology and machinery necessary to go to the moon was
designed and built. The massive and massively expensive Saturn V rockets(many
of them) were designed, built and launched to witnesses. The LEM, CSM, suites,
computers, and etc were all built. The simulators were built and simulations
run. Etc and etc and etc; hundreds of thousands of people invovled.

So, pretty much all the cost of going to the Moon and now add on the cost of
faking it and maintaining that lie for 50 years.

~~~
maxst
And they would know that "maintaining that lie for N years" would prove
useless as soon as the powerful cameras in lunar orbit would photograph the
landing sites. Who would participate in such a lie knowing 100% it will be
exposed, eventually...

------
koevet
The saddest and most worrysome aspect of the exchange is actually the sender
of the letter being a teacher.

"As a teacher of young children, I have a duty to tell them history..."

~~~
gorgoiler
“Yourselfs”

3/10, could try harder.

------
jedberg
The best argument I ever heard was that it would be more expensive to fake the
moon landing than to actually go.

Thousands of people saw the Apollo rockets take off. They would have had to do
that part anyway, and that was the most expensive part of the mission.

------
jussij
Armstrong's reference to the moon reflectors brought back memories of this
classic Big Bang clip:

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-e5CtbbZL-k&feature=youtu.be](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-e5CtbbZL-k&feature=youtu.be)

In this context I can easily imagine that Zack is the teacher.

~~~
gbil
not sure why I feel the urge to reply :) but Zack is the very opposite of that
teacher. Zack is asking questions and wants to learn. That teacher just tries
to push her opinion on someone, leaving to room for reply, no room for a
conversation, exactly what no teacher should do, no one in general but
especially someone who should promote discussions, questioning and
argumentation

~~~
jussij
The way I look at this is Zack reminds me of the collective group of people
who truly struggle with basic science.

As Armstrong points out in his reply, it only takes a very basic level of
scientific/forensic examination to easily prove the moon landings happened.

But all of that falls on deaf ears (much like in the clip) when you are
responding to someone with a Zack level of scientific ability.

------
stormdennis
The worst part about this is that it's a teacher who's believing the fake Moon
landing conspiracy theory. I had a teacher in primary school who, one day,
filled our heads with nonsense by Erich von daniken. When you're young and a
teacher does that it tends to stick in your head.

------
squarefoot
Didn't they come back with lunar soil samples? Armstrong reply was brilliant,
but I would have also added: "here's some samples we took by ourselves, feel
free to meet us at xyz lab and analyze them".

And btw, who the heck allows a negationist like that one to teach children?

~~~
WalterBright
> who the heck allows a negationist like that one to teach children?

Heh, I strongly disagree with a _lot_ of what is taught in public schools. I
even got some Fs in high school for telling teachers they were wrong.

------
Konohamaru
Most men would have soiled myself if they were put into a position of having
to reboot the rocket and make it back to Earth. And then seeing how one of the
astronauts kept his cool when one of the components for redeparture failed.
Just incredible!

~~~
th0ma5
The whole thing seems like instant death every moment. Perhaps as test pilots
they all got used to just trying to get on with things, but maybe they really
did soil themselves like us mortals?

------
WalterBright
While we laugh at skeptics, often they serve a valuable purpose. Skeptics have
often revolutionized our understanding of the universe. Like Galileo.

We should be careful of unquestioningly believing "established" facts.

~~~
fchu
Unfortunately we're now using the word skeptics for 2 totally different things
\- questioning dogma with sound reasoning and reasonable first principles \-
trusting one's own belief against overwhelming evidence of the contrary.

Galileo squarely belongs to the former, while flat earthers and moon landing
'skeptics' belong to the latter. Let's not conflate the two.

~~~
WalterBright
I suspect you don't realize how firmly people at the time believed in revealed
truth and the evidence of their own eyes that the sun revolved around the
Earth.

------
jdblair
I admire Armstrong for taking the time to write such a thoughtful letter. With
the exception of people who are close to me, I usually calculate that it's not
worth my time to engage and try to refute a conspiracy theory.

------
charliebrownb
As he finished up a video call with his parents who were stuck in Europe, he
knew he was right. The wold was so naive.

He dictated the last few words on his latest iPhone to save time before
telling Siri to send the email - magically connecting himself to the
fraudulent spaceman, bits of data flying over air in an instant.

"We are still thousands of years away from having the technology to fly to the
moon", he chuckled. He turned his lights off, sank back into his bed. Content.

------
Buildstarted
this is my favorite site that debunks all the moon landing conspiracy
theories. [http://www.clavius.org/](http://www.clavius.org/)

------
akhilcacharya
The letter is great, but it doesn’t have the same impact Buzz Aldrins reaction
to the skeptic had.

~~~
vages
For those who haven't seen Aldrin punching a conspiracy theorist in the face:

[https://youtu.be/jc7gsdonMHw](https://youtu.be/jc7gsdonMHw)

~~~
jacquesm
There is something extremely funny about someone wanting an accomplished
astronaut to swear that the most important event in their lives actually
happened _on a Bible_ , which we all know is an accurate representation of
historical facts...

------
koonsolo
Well, here lies the difference between US and EU.

In US, you try to reason with lunatics who believe the earth is flat and other
nonsense.

In EU, we treat lunatics like lunatics.

------
irjustin
I think the sad part is there are people who still fall prey today to this and
many other conspiracies, anti-vaxx just to name one.

But this is a core tenant of freedom of speech and information, so not matter
how objectively wrong, I'll defend the teacher's right to say it.

There will always be those who fall into fringe ideas regardless of how
disprovable they are because they choose to believe the moon is made of
cheese. The tool of critical thinking not being applied well can easily end up
here.

------
hodgesrm
This is the sort of craziness that led to the Dark Ages after the fall of the
Western Roman Empire. We humans are pretty much our own worst enemies.

~~~
boomboomsubban
I can't see the parallel between the willful ignorance displayed and the "Dark
Ages." Do you think the migrating tribes just refused to believe those
aqueducts existed?

~~~
coliveira
The rise of the Church made most of the ancient culture to be believed false
of demonic. Philosophers were the first put to the fire. Temples were
destroyed, along with the books inside them. With the end of the Roman state,
there was nobody left in Europe to maintain the engineering knowledge acquired
by the ancient.

~~~
steamedhams
That doesn’t really sound like a good summary of centuries of Roman and post-
Roman history.

History is complicated, but I would say that the Western European dark ages of
500-1000AD were caused neither by moon landing skepticism (or the 6th century
equivalent thereof) nor its opposite.

------
LAMike
If Elon can't get us to the Moon by 2030, I'm putting my tinfoil hat on.

Does this sound like a group of guys who just accomplished the most impressive
feat of human innovation?

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XeAGGpRYmKY](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XeAGGpRYmKY)

~~~
jakeogh
Honestly, it really does. Nothing about that suggests they are making up
anything. It's throughly organic; off the top of their heads. None of the body
language or vocalization suggests deception to me. They include esoteric
details and caveats without hesitation. It's fun to watch, thanks for posting.

------
vikingcaffiene
Saw a video of him responding to another skeptic by beating the shit out of
him [0]. Honestly when people are that deluded a good knock on the head might
be a more persuasive argument...

[0]
[https://www.floridatoday.com/story/tech/science/space/2019/0...](https://www.floridatoday.com/story/tech/science/space/2019/07/19/lunar-
landing-denier-we-never-went-moon/1702676001/)

[Edit] Mixed up Neil with Buzz... oops. -_-

~~~
WalterBright
I'd imagine Buzz would be pretty mad if he found out you were mistaking Neil
for him, given that Buzz has lived most of his life in Neil's shadow.

As for me, I credit them _both_ _equally_ for being the first men on the moon.
They both landed at the same moment. Whether the bootheel or the landing gear
hit is not relevant.

~~~
vikingcaffiene
> I'd imagine Buzz would be pretty mad

He's already knocked one dude out. Might as well add me to the list ;)

I agree with your sentiment. My mind honestly can't wrap itself around the
terrifying sense of wonder and vulnerability those guys must have felt being
up there and looking back at earth. Incredible.

