
Ask HN: Has my education made me unhireable? - tossaway123
Hello, Hacker News. I&#x27;ve been despairing over something lately.<p>I&#x27;ve poured the last four years into a CS PhD and am about to graduate. I don&#x27;t intend to take an academic position. I applied to a few companies, but none called back.<p>I have a background many geeks share: coding from an early age, spending their teenage years in IRC soaking up everything, playing, hacking. When I finished high school, I went into CS, where I met my future advisor. He suggested I apply as a PhD so he could fund me. I wasn&#x27;t aware then that PhD meant &quot;professor in training&quot;, nor that the university I&#x27;d go to has a reputation for producing bad grads. It seemed like a good opportunity, so I took it.<p>My advisor put me to work solo on developing a large system that would be the foundation for a (possibly commercial) web service. I saw this project through from the ground up. I got to experiment with different technologies. I made a habit of writing clean code&#x2F;documentation. All in all, a lot of valuable experience.<p>People fresh out of academia are typically some of the worst software developers imaginable, doubly so for those with no job experience. I don&#x27;t feel like I meet the stereotype, but looking at my resume you can&#x27;t tell. My advisor discouraged internships, and nothing I&#x27;ve done outside of academia is worth putting in a resume.<p>I feel like I&#x27;m trapped. I&#x27;m overqualified, yet have no work experience. The only thing I <i>am</i> qualified for is an academic job I don&#x27;t want. Now I&#x27;m about to be without income.<p>The companies I&#x27;ve applied to are all big, though I think I&#x27;d fit well in an early-stage startup where I could take on a generalist role. But I feel like such a position takes connections I don&#x27;t have. Could I approach the founders at such a company directly? How can I prove I&#x27;m not just yet another post-academia liability if no one will look past my resume? Am I fucked?
======
morgante
No, your education does not.

The real reason you see many PhDs fail to get private sector jobs is that
they're expecting to be compensated for that PhD. But from the perspective of
a hiring manager they're really just a recent grad with a superiority complex.

If you are willing to accept that your PhD does _not_ catapult you into being
a senior developer (particularly for startups), then you shouldn't have any
trouble finding a job, assuming you are in fact a good developer (unlike many
PhDs).

Also, if you're in dire straits, I recommend picking up a contracting gig.
It's a great way to tide you over without rushing into the first job offered.

If you'd like to work in NYC, or want to try your hand at contracting, just
write to me: morgante@cafe.com.

~~~
tensor
>But from the perspective of a hiring manager they're really just a recent
grad with a superiority complex.

I know it's fun to hate on PhDs here, but this just isn't true at all.

A PhD isn't about development true, but it still holds value. Basically it
shows that you know how to problem solve, push the boundaries of what is
known, work independently, and persevere until the job is done. Any hiring
manager that doesn't value these traits is doing an awful job.

As for supporting evidence, I guess I could cite the fact that when I neared
the completion of my degree I had a lot of recruiters calling me for very well
paid jobs. All my friends in the program had similar experiences, many of whom
went on to big tech companies. Hell, big tech companies advertised directly to
PhD students on campus. Hardly the picture of worthlessness you are painting.

~~~
morgante
> Basically it shows that you know how to problem solve, push the boundaries
> of what is known, work independently, and persevere until the job is done.

Okay, sure. I don't completely discount a PhD when looking at a resume, but
this also doesn't add _much_.

For most development jobs, a PhD is about as useful as one undergraduate
summer internship in terms of demonstrating skills and adding value.

Of course, there are some jobs around theoretical & mathemetical problems
where a PhD is worth a lot more. And those are probably the jobs at big tech
companies which your PhD friends have been offered.

I don't think a PhD is worthless. I just don't think it makes a big difference
for a developer's resume, especially because it also carries some unfortunate
signaling effects (I know many PhDs who only went that route because they
weren't good enough developers to get good jobs straight out of undergrad).

------
themodelplumber
I would make lists of:

1) PhDs in your area, with a focus on CS and related disciplines

2) PhDs in your area, with a focus on areas that need CS grads (e.g. business,
etc.)

3) Types of people you work well with (judging by your past--previous jobs,
professors, family, friends). Use any typology you want--"creative women in
marketing," "decisive men who enjoy technology," "ENFPs of any gender in a
creative role," whatever seems to get you a usable list.

4) People in roles that you would like. For example, a developer using lots of
creative leeway to build new systems.

5) People in roles that work with people in roles that you would like. For
example, a developer might look for people in online marketing or a specific
field you want to work in.

6) People who have advised people like you--e.g. professors, counselors at
schools (yours or other schools).

Then I would contact those kinds of people (getting contact information via
local Google searches, Facebook graph search, whatever works--and phone calls
are ideal, email less so) and ask if you could meet with them for ~10 minutes
for a brief informational interview. Basically explain your situation. See
what they think. Ask them if they like their career (if applicable). Don't ask
them for a job, but let them know that you are looking for work. If they offer
to help you find a job, great. If they seem like they'd be a good friend,
terrific.

This is one of the fastest methods of starting from scratch and finding a job
that I've found. Finding a job is an amazingly analog / human feeling-driven
process and sending resumes and filling out applications all day often turns
out to be a waste of time, but connecting with people is like manually
spinning the warped analog cogs of this messy job-finding machine in your
favor.

Source: Work as a volunteer in a charitable organization, helping people find
jobs / start careers.

Edit: Just wanted to say, I've been in a "need a job now" situation before
several times (thankfully in the distant past), and it can be pretty
depressing. Please take care of yourself and hang in there--with your
background you'll find something great for sure.

~~~
ritchiea
This is great advice, I would add one more thing:

Start actually working on things. The OP says he/she has not worked on
anything outside of academia worth putting on a resume. It is not too late to
start a project or working relationship that is a good conversation starter
for an industry job. There are so many ways one could do this, you could go to
a site like [https://www.catchafire.org/](https://www.catchafire.org/) and
volunteer your technical skills to a non-profit in need. You could get
involved with an open source project. You could also start a project on your
own. The first two are preferable to the last because the first two involve
actually meeting and working with other people (you need to meet other people
to get a job, obviously) but any of them would be a good first step.

The other thing I would say is you probably don't need a huge project or a
flashy achievement to help yourself be viewed as someone worth giving a job
offer. Your phD is going to legitimize your computing knowledge, you just have
to show yourself to be interested in also being practical.

------
kazinator
I think you have to stop believing that you're overqualified. You're only
overqualified on paper in the sense that positions you're applying for require
a Bachelor's, and you have more. However, that degree isn't the primary
qualification for the job.

I think that it might not be a bad idea to just suck in that Ph. D. and just
visualize yourself as a "fresh grad". Just one with a few more years under the
belt. Find out what the undergraduates are doing to get jobs, and join them.
For instance, if there is a job fair, go to it and make contacts.

One thing prospective employers may be concerned about is that if they hire
you, they will get approximately the same "package" as if they hire a fresh
undergrad degree, but you will expect to be paid more.

Another concern arises out of the perception that someone who has pursued a
Ph. D. is an intellectual who loves researching and solving new problems, and
will be bored doing day to day development: fixing someone else's bugs, or
integrating some pieces together that you didn't design and whatnot.

------
ChuckMcM
Breathe in, breathe out.

So many people I've interviewed over the past few years who are fresh
graduates are panicing over this. Trust me, there are many jobs. Some suck and
some rock and you will get to experience both kinds :-)

So now that you're starting to look around "officially" consider looking
around a few job sites. Where do you want to work? The SF Bay Area, Chicago,
New York, Boston all have pretty solid tech hubs, Boulder/Denver, Austin, Los
Angeles, Seattle, and Pittsburgh have lots of openings as well. Craigslist,
hired.com, etc all have hiring managers posting for jobs.

And get clear about what you want to do. Operating systems work? Database
work? Web services? Languages? Applications? Embedded systems? Robotics? High
Frequency Trading? Etc.

If you _don 't_ want to be hired here are a few things you can do; insist that
people call you with the Dr. honorific. Find an opportunity to explain to
people how they are doing what ever it is they are doing incorrectly. Always
enquire about their post high school educational experience and if they didn't
graduate with a PhD ask them what lead to their failure. If they did get a PhD
ask them how it was they couldn't get into your Alma Mater.

The above is a way of suggesting that your education doesn't make you who you
are, you make you who you are. Your passions, your values, and your work
ethic. Employers hire _people_ not _degrees_. You'll be fine.

------
dustingetz
Places like Lockheed Martin pay a premium to have PhDs run their research
programs, (credentials matter to the customers) and if you know how to program
you will have an enormous advantage over the other PIs who are mostly not
programmers. You'll make a decent wage and work on interesting stuff.

~~~
chriskanan
This is definitely true at NASA. A PhD is tremendously helpful there. You will
almost certainly be making a higher starting wage than someone with just a BS
or MS, and you have many opportunities for advancement as a PI down the road.
They are often looking for people with programming skills.

------
psychometry
Build things, open-source them on GitHub, and get a job doing something
similar to what you know how to build.

~~~
mayneack
Or contribute to a medium size existing project if thinking of what to make is
a problem. Medium size will mean you have the ability to make substantial
contributions.

------
colordrops
Perhaps you should look outside of pure-software firms. Aerospace, biotech,
finance, geoengineering, etc all require software engineers with a strong
academic and/or theoretical background. I work at such a place that would not
demerit you for having a PhD, and perhaps even make your chances better.

Even a lot of firms that rely mainly on software need people with strong
theoretical background. For example, Google X, Netflix, Amazon, and any shop
doing robotics.

If you think you don't have a shot based on your background, you are looking
in the wrong places, narrowing your scope too much, not networking at all, or
a combination of the three.

------
nonuby
Github, contribute to projects or find something interesting and launch a
project. De-emphasis the education if you feel it's a disadvantage, stick it
near the bottom of your CV, if you dont want to look like a post-academia
liability (as you put it) then center your CV around experience so you fit the
experience hire category rather than intern. You are not fucked..

------
pjbrunet
Think about the market you're interested in and shape your brand to fit that
market. Part of that: use the right keywords. The jobs will come to you. If
you don't tell people what you want to do, how will they know? If you want to
work in eCommerce, you need to have "eCommerce" on all of your profiles. Pick
the job title you want and start using it everywhere. I recommend you dive
into LinkedIn, it's easy to find work on there without emailing or calling
anyone. All you have to do is build your network and work on your "Summary"
section. Here's a basic LinkedIn roadmap (work in progress)
[http://linkedexpertsalliance.com/topic/how-to-find-fresh-
new...](http://linkedexpertsalliance.com/topic/how-to-find-fresh-new-clients-
on-linkedin/) If you use my method, let me know how it worked for you.

------
tensor
If it's the name of your school that is the problem, which is possible
considering that the experience of everyone I know with a CS PhD is very
different, then you can always fix this by taking on a postdoc at a school
with a better reputation.

Postdocs are not a great use of time generally, but definitely better than
sitting unemployed and are actually quite good at helping you network and/or
diversify your skill set.

That said, never count on reputation, in the end the individual is what
matters. Fancy schools can have poor graduates and poor schools can have
amazing graduates. You just need to convince people you are not the average at
your school. Open source contributions or projects help, as do practical
demos. Why not take your research work and apply it to a real problem? Throw
up a little demo on a website if possible and do a bit of blogging. Definitely
won't hurt.

------
aidenn0
I do know of some companies that will refuse to hire anyone with a PhD (My dad
with 20+ years of work experience actually ran into that; the recruiter moved
his education to a second page, so they didn't know he had a PhD until he
mentioned his dissertation, and the interview was instantly over with little
more than "We don't hire PhDs, goodbye."

On the other hand, I've worked in software with someone who had a PhD in
Biomedical engineering (so not even CS!), and he got his first job via a
referral; if anyone who knows you can code (Undergrad classmate? Open source
collaborator?) works somewhere that's hiring, that would be a great way to get
your foot in the door.

------
rdlecler1
We may have just found someone, but do you want to send me your resume?
rob@agfunder.com

------
DanBC
What is your portfolio like? What are you doing to improve it?

There are many reasons companies will reject candidates. Don't latch onto one
thing too soon. Maybe it's just your résumé wording.

------
banku_brougham
Amazon hires PhDs for machine learning research, and it seems like you could
also get hired as a straight SDE as well. Lmk if you can't find the public job
boards.

------
atarian
What kind of positions are you trying to get into? Many big companies have
research divisions that heavily recruit from Ph.Ds (Microsoft, Yahoo, Google,
etc).

If on the other hand you're gunning for a standard developer position, you're
definitely going to have a hard time because of who you're competing against
as well as the stereotype of Ph.d's like you mentioned.

------
matchagaucho
Start-ups receive only 1-10 resumes per day, so they're much more likely to
bring in someone they don't know for an interview.

Larger companies receive thousands of resumes per day, therefore a personal
reference is essential to getting in the door.

Avoid using a one-size-fits-all resume. For each start-up applying to, write a
custom resume tailored to their needs.

------
iradik
Get a job. But first realize degrees don't matter. Technology companies tend
to value real-world experience a hell of a lot more than diplomas. I am
speaking as a software engineer without any degree. you aren't fucked but you
need to get a job. Any job experience at all will differentiate you from all
the other PhDs out there.

------
tbirdz
Try applying to more research oriented companies. You could also always take a
post-doc or something while you are searching.

------
calcsam
Coding interviews are specifically designed to tell whether people write clean
code. If you can get to that stage, you'll probably be fine.

Just the fact that you're thinking about these kind of issues tells me you're
heading in the right direction. Drop me a line at samb@zenefits.com and I'll
get you a phone screen here.

------
chrisBob
I am a mechanical engineer, so the rules might be slightly different, but I
have been told:

If you want a job in industry you are wasting your time getting a PhD, and if
you want a government or academic job then you are wasting your time doing
anything else.

You just need to find someone that values your degree, and startups might not
be the right place.

------
greenyoda
_" I wasn't aware then that PhD meant 'professor in training'..."_

It doesn't necessarily mean that. Lots of people with PhDs in CS go to work
outside of academia. (Maybe most of them these days, since tenure-track jobs
in academia have been getting increasingly difficult to find.)

------
zhte415
If you're thinking of finance as an avenue:

Try middle office in larger banks / investment managers, as that is where in-
roads are typically made: Risk management, support applications, etc. A foot
in the door for front office, or just stay in middle office.

Or small hedge funds can work.

------
qzcx
Could you take your research and create a business based upon it? Might be
something to look at if you are going to be graduated and without work at
first. I wouldn't put it as "Plan A", but it could be a good "Plan C" or "Plan
D"

------
adoming3
There's this guy Sergey Brin who got a PhD too, he ended up alright. Here's
his resume as a student.
[http://infolab.stanford.edu/~sergey/resume.html](http://infolab.stanford.edu/~sergey/resume.html)

~~~
aioprisan
That's completely irrelevant to the OP's current dilemma, unless if you're
suggesting that he start his own company. And Sergey Brin actually suspended
his PhD studies to work on Google instead, once they realized the potential.

------
giaour
Check out VersatilePhD
([http://www.versatilephd.com](http://www.versatilephd.com)). It's been a
great help to me (ABD in Comparative Literature).

------
trentmb
I'm a recent graduate with a BS in Math, my 'early years' background is
similar to yours... if you can't get a job, I don't know why I bother to keep
applying.

Best of luck mate.

------
Udo
I don't think it's that bad. It sounds like you could counter that perception
of yourself by simply giving future employers a link to your Github profile.

If you don't have one, make one!

------
aefeuer
Hey man,

Thanks for posting here...I can't speak for big companies but I wouldn't be so
reluctant to apply to a startup.

First of all, I'd say that most startups growing quickly will judge
engineering candidates on merit, not connections. If you're a startup growing
aggressively, hiring great people is so important that you end up using your
personal networks not to _filter_ candidates but rather to find more
candidates than you'd otherwise get through people who apply cold. For our
team, if we saw two brilliant engineers, a PhD who applied cold, and another
wonderful fellow with a connection to our team, we'd hire both.

I'm sure there are some stereotypes about PhDs, but I'd be surprised to find a
startup that held it against you. One piece is advice...I think showing
humility is important. I've seen some PhDs who want to join our team and dive
right in (that's great!) while others are only interested in leading a
research team or something fancy like that even though they have no work
experience (that's not great). I'll always give someone the benefit of the
doubt so I won't assume that any PhD I meet is too big for his/her britches,
but as a PhD applicant I think it's important to understand that anyone
leading hiring has probably seen plenty of PhDs who don't come to the table
with the humility you need for a startup job.

Last thought -- the one challenge in applying to startups is to make sure they
don't accidentally reject you, e.g. we're a relatively small team and we get
thousands of applications a year, and we try our darndest to read every one
and review every code challenge and take everyone seriously. That said, I'm
sure we make mistakes every now and then, and we overlook someone who's
awesome. As an applicant, one way you can avoid that is to make yourself stand
out. Was your PhD research really fascinating? Have you built something cool?
etc. For example, people sometimes email me as the CEO instead of applying
through our web site. It happens often enough that in most cases I'll
introduce them to the head of recruiting on our team; I can't get involved
personally every time or it's all I'd do every day. But if someone really
stands out when they email me -- and in a substantive way -- I'll pay
attention.

Sorry man, I know the job search is hard, especially coming out of a PhD
program, but the good news is that you're in a highly competitive job market
for engineers and most companies are hiring on merit.

PS if you're looking in Boston, feel free to email me afeuer@panoramaed.com
(Panorama YC S13)

------
artemk
You're not screwed. If you're within commuting distance from San Francisco
shoot me an email: artem@buildzoom.com. We are hiring smart engineers with
potential.

------
seyfulislam
Resigned a few days ago for the same reasons. I have been working no less than
a senior for months, and each month my company made me remember that I am a
junior.

~~~
morgante
The distinction between senior and junior developers isn't in how much they
work, but in what results come from the work they do.

If anything, I expect junior developers to work a bit more than senior
developers to accelerate their learning.

~~~
seyfulislam
Well, I am not counting the time/energy I spent for the job, but I am
comparing the outcome of my work. I agree that I sometimes work a little bit
more (by means of time) than a senior engineer, but as the outcome of my work
matches the senior, then I want my salary to match or come close to seniors.
Definition of senior here is "someone who works for 2 years in development."
Nobody cares if you suck or excel in your job during the 2 years.

------
iammaxus
If you are interested in a job that would expose you to a wide range of
disciplines inside and outside of CS, please send us your resume at
jobs@formlabs.com

------
readme
Throwing together a sample project would help you with your search.

I know you worked incredibly hard in academia but people love to see tangible
things.

------
redlabs4000
Whats your phd in OP? Depending on which subfield of CS you are, you could be
highly marketable. Is it computer vision?

------
cat9
Speaking as a mostly recovered ex-PhD, the factors which affect hireablility
are largely orthogonal to your educational credentials, particularly if you
are attempting to get hired for a job which is not gated against said
credentials (i.e. most jobs in industry, regardless of what the HR
documentation claims).

Also, most things that people will tell you re: build portfolio, contribute to
open source, etc. — it's largely a waste of your time, at least with regard to
getting a paycheck with large numbers in your hands as expeditiously as
possible. Please, contribute to open source, I need that stuff. But don't do
it because you think you have to in order to land job interviews.

If your skill and discipline as a "get stuff done every day" developer is
roughly no better than your average junior web developer, that's approximately
a $90k/yr position for which the market has deep unmet demand. The set of
people who are hiring decently competent developers is approximately "everyone
with an existing software development team."

A much better approach is:

* Make a list of companies you would be interested in working for

* Figure out who at these companies is currently managing a dev team

* Contact those people, convince them you can write compiling code

* Discuss doing work for them in exchange for large amounts of currency

Beyond that, understand that you're going to have a learning curve to get your
"getting stuff done every day" and domain-specific development skills up to
spec. Right now, you're probably about as productive as a junior developer
with six months of industry experience. This sucks, but you're already aware
of it. The typical grad student is shit about e.g. coding as part of a team,
using commit-driven development, issue tracking, that sort of routine process
things that keep work happening regularly - even if they have a great grasp of
their chosen languages(s) and tool(s), which many do not.

If you play your cards right, the learning curve from there to "competent if
inexperienced senior developer" is about 6 to 18 months for a typical
engineering grad student who has some experience mentoring undergrads and
helping them through issues like "this wouldn't have happened if you'd just
use version control" and "would you please write comments that tell me what
the heck you're trying to do with this block of code."

At worst, the outlook is about the same as a run-of-the-mill junior developer,
who is still likely taking home an embarrassingly large paycheck while they
improve their skills.

Your safety net is "CRUD monkey." That already pays well enough to make the
median dual-income American family rather jealous. From there, what do you
want your career to be? Application development? Graphics? Data science?
Database engineering? Pick something, find teams that are working on that,
talk to them about the work they're doing. Bonus points if you already have
some understanding about their subject area based on reading you did as a grad
student, or projects you worked on, but they likely already hire people with
less domain experience than that.

------
haney
Send me your resume adam@getbellhops.com

------
frozenport
>>How can I prove I'm not just yet another post-academia liability if no one
will look past my resume?

Apply to whom ever sponsored your research. Indeed, you are probably
overqualified to write CSS for a living.

~~~
qzcx
This. Networking is your best ally in the job hunt.

------
informatimago
Just don't mention your PhD in your resume.

~~~
greenyoda
That might work if he had many years of work experience. But since he has no
work experience, potential employers would immediately wonder what he was
doing in the years since he graduated. And his PhD work is the only thing he
can point to to show that he's worked somewhere as a developer. Besides, to
the right employer - one who is trying to solve a novel problem - someone who
has experience working on a research project could be a valuable asset.

~~~
giaour
If the OP had any official duties or responsibilities while enrolled in his
program, then he can always list his PhD studies as a four year "teaching and
research assistant" position or whatever.

