
Plasma wings could change the way airplanes are designed and flown - mrfusion
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/next/space/plasma-air-control/
======
nhallsny
This article was in need of a windtunnel video showing the effect:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mVJjn1pt08g](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mVJjn1pt08g)
. The right type of plasma can reattach separated flow.
([https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flow_separation](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flow_separation)).

~~~
curveship
wow, thanks for the vid! can anyone explain why this happens?

~~~
ww520
Just a guess. Ionized plasma has charges that attract or repulse air
particles. Attracting air particles would make them hugging the surface more.

~~~
b_emery
Another guess: the article says the plasma actuators can create weak flows, so
a small push of air toward the trailing edge of the wing would create enough
of a vacuum to re-attached the flow.

------
fmp
>A scaled-down gale blows over a flat plate set inside the tabletop wind
tunnel. Despite the low lighting and hazy Plexiglas view portals, we can
clearly see the frenzied fluttering of streamer ribbons, called telltales, in
the field of little wind vanes that carpets the exposed test surface inside.

I'm really bothered by this style of journalism which feels the need to start
off every story with an _in media res_ narrative instead of just telling you
the most important points and working its way down like a traditional
newspaper article should.

I don't care about the scene at the wind tunnel you visited while researching
this story. Tell me about the plasma wings.

~~~
jombiezebus
Agreed. This style is called "Long-form journalism" for anyone not already
familiar with the term.

~~~
effingwewt
I took Journalism as an elective and fell in love. I use knowledge gained many
times a day, and have much deeper insight into what I consume. I highly
recommend anyone who hasn't do yourself the favor of taking a Journalism
class. I felt like Neo- I could see the code of the matrix and was no longer
fooled by all the fake stuff surrounding me.

edit- I could also form a deeper appreciation for the truly amazing
Journalists out there. Diamonds in the rough.

------
Feneric
It's surprising that even with the energy it takes to generate a plasma strong
enough and in enough quantity to achieve the desired effects, it can still
result in an estimated 25% energy savings. It goes to show how much energy
just deals with drag in the current system.

~~~
phkahler
>> It's surprising that even with the energy it takes to generate a plasma
strong enough and in enough quantity to achieve the desired effects, it can
still result in an estimated 25% energy savings. It goes to show how much
energy just deals with drag in the current system.

You've made an assumption that they are taking the energy required to create
the plasma into account in their aerodynamic efficiency calculations. I didn't
see any indication of the power required to produce the plasma, much less that
number of power already required to fly. I did see the suggestion of using it
on electric planes or wind turbines where larger amounts of electric power are
readily available - one can interpret that availability as a convenience (high
voltages and power are already there meaning less complexity) or an oversight
(we're just neglecting the energy required). Nowhere in the article is this
directly addressed. It would not surprise me if the truth were somewhere in
between - it takes a lot of power, but saves even more.

I've seen a similar situation in the hybrid car world when making certain
comparisons.

~~~
Justsignedup
Do we know if there's a lot or a little lost electricity that is generated as
a result of the main engines running? I know cars waste a bunch of electricity
(which is how hybrid batteries charge themselves when driving).

~~~
ars
> Do we know if there's a lot or a little lost electricity that is generated
> as a result of the main engines running?

That's not how it works. Car use an alternator instead of a generator because
it lets them control how much electricity to make regardless of the speed at
which the alternator spins. They basically vary the strength of the magnet in
the alternator.

If they didn't the effect of "extra electricity" is a higher voltage, which
would obviously be bad.

> I know cars waste a bunch of electricity (which is how hybrid batteries
> charge themselves when driving).

Hybrid batteries mostly save energy by capturing wasted energy when braking
and when going downhill. Charging batteries from the engine makes the engine
consume more gas.

~~~
jhayward
> Hybrid batteries mostly save energy by capturing wasted energy when braking
> and when going downhill

Only for some workloads. A remarkable portion of the efficiency gain in hybrid
vehicles is due to letting the ICE run at only the most efficient portion of
the torque and power curves. In my experience (10 years in a Prius)
regenerative braking is a distant second.

------
ep103
I can't seem to find anything in google, but I remember reading about
something similar some ~10 years ago for military aircraft. Apparently there
were experimental fighter jets that had large ionizing beams of some sort
shooting in front of the aircraft? The claim was along the lines of by
ionizing the air in front of the craft, it significantly reduced the drag the
plane experienced flying through that pocket of air moments later.

I'm having a hard time finding articles on it, but it sounds so similar to
this article.

~~~
nkoren
There have been theories for over a decade that the B2 includes a technology
like this:
[http://starburstfound.org/electrograviticsblog/?p=21](http://starburstfound.org/electrograviticsblog/?p=21)

(Edit: Here's the farthest-back link I can find, allegedly from 1993(!):
[http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/ciencia/ciencia_flyingobje...](http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/ciencia/ciencia_flyingobjects44.htm).

Alas, it's full of anti-gravity and over-unity and other such rubbish, but the
bit about the B-2 using electrostatic discharge to shape the airflow around it
certainly _does_ sound like what's being referenced in the OP. Almost make me
wonder whether anti-gravity etc. aren't simply smokescreens to fuzz up the S/N
ratio of leaks about legitimately cutting-edge technologies.)

~~~
sandworm101
The B2? A stealth aircraft equipped with an array of pulsing electrodes strong
enough to move air? I haven’t read anything about this, but I assume that
these things are extremely loud radio emitters.

~~~
nkoren
Allegedly it creates a plasma shield which has a radar-shielding effect, in
addition to reducing drag (and maybe actually moving the air). But yeah, you'd
think that the RF signature would be unmistakable...

~~~
sandworm101
Drop the plasma. What is has are, potentially, some directional antennas
capable of attacking inbound radar. But imho it doesn't have even that. This
is 1980s/90s tech. It's a quiet bird, as opposed to something like and
EW/weasel jamming platform. I doubt it does anything active. Now it may have
some conductive material meant to absorb and play tricks with RF, giving the
appearance of some magnetic shield, but I don't think it is deliberately
broadcasting, at least not in any omnidirectional way remotely similar to a
force field.

One active trick is does do, and has been confirmed by ATCs all over the
place, is transmit transponder data as if it were a commercial aircraft while
in civilian/peaceful air space. This prevents enemy spies from detecting a
mission launch and direction, but has raised concerns amongst legal minds.
It's akin to a soldier wearing civilian cloths while travelling behind the
lines ... but such principals seems to be falling by the wayside these days.

~~~
vonmoltke
The goal of stealth is to avoid detection. The goal of active jamming is to
obscure the specific location of something and prevent targeting, either by
blanking enemy sensors or presenting false targets. That is contrary to the
goal of not being detected.

> It's akin to a soldier wearing civilian cloths while travelling behind the
> lines ... but such principals seems to be falling by the wayside these days.

That has always been an acceptable ruse de guerre, so long as the soldiers
change back into their proper uniforms before engaging in any combat actions.

~~~
sandworm101
It's not illegal. The issue is that any vehicle transporting troops, armed
troops, is a valid military target. They aren't meant to hide amongst
civilians. A military aircraft pretending to be a civilian is daring the enemy
to start shooting at civilian aircraft. Not illegal, just wrong. You would
never see a US naval vessel identify itself on radio as a cruise ship, but
that is essentially what the B2 does on every combat mission.

(At least those flown from north america, I don't know what they do when
flying from the other bases.)

------
paulftw
Helicopters use complex and expensive mechanisms to articulate rotor blades.
If plasma can eliminate hinges on wings hopefully it can also be used to
dramatically simplify the helicopter design. That'll be a real breakthrough.

~~~
themartorana
_" Corke and his team reported that the wind tunnel test item, which used “new
actuators that developed 20 times more thrust while consuming 100 times less
power, produced a 65% drag reduction.” The Notre Dame researchers have found
that introducing a small oscillation whose waves move perpendicular to the air
flow path can halt the onset of the so-called near-surface flow instabilities
that lead to turbulence."_

Sounds like it's already a real breakthrough. After this it may just be a
problem of imagining where to put this stuff.

~~~
SolarNet
I think the point is that while it's a minor change for classic aircraft
(replace some flaps with a plasma actuator system because it's more energy
efficient). In helicopters it is a radical simplification and will drop the
price and complexity of the key flight system by an order of magnitude.

~~~
shostack
Will it have a similar effect on quads both small and large? I keep waiting
for people sized quad or octocopters so hopefully this makes them more
efficient.

~~~
jakemoshenko
Manned multicopters have already happened. [1] MIT has also demonstrated a
variable pitch quadcopter. [2]

If they can use plasma laminar detachment and reattachment to somehow simulate
a variable pitch propeller, while still getting some weight savings over a
design with multiple swashplates, then yes I think it should help the
quadcopter design scale up to larger propellers. That's a big if though, since
to simulate a negative angle of attack I'm guessing your propeller design
would have to be pretty inefficient with all plasma turned off.

I'm not entirely sure why you want this though, since the single large rotor
is more efficient. There was a novel design a few years ago with one large
rotor for lift and three smaller ones to counter torque and provide control.
[3]

[1]
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L75ESD9PBOw](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L75ESD9PBOw)

[2]
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vy5Ky50eGJs](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vy5Ky50eGJs)

[3] [http://www.geek.com/science/weve-been-designing-
quadcopters-...](http://www.geek.com/science/weve-been-designing-quadcopters-
incorrectly-since-day-one-1577256/)

------
JoeAltmaier
Its one thing to reduce vibration and fatigue. But increasing stability is a
two-edged sword. If the plasma actuator fails, suddenly at 500MPH you're less
stable. And no device is foolproof, especially one that requires high voltage.
A lightening strike, an engine failure and the plane won't fly?

~~~
j-pb
> A lightening strike, an engine failure and the plane won't fly?

How is this different from every other fly by wire system? And it's not only
electronics, when the hydraulics fail on a plane you also lose all control
surfaces.

I rather have a solid state system that merely requires voltage to operate
than the complex system of moving parts, linear actuators, hydraulic
actuators, and fly by wire electronics that is currently required.

~~~
digler999
> How is this different from every other fly by wire system?

In a fly-by-wire system, low-voltage electricity is used to carry
_information_. Batteries and redundant lines can handle almost any conceivable
fault.

In a plasma wing, high-voltage electricity is used to _alter the airfoil_.
Battery backups may be infeasible (or too heavy) for the voltages required. Or
the ion generator itself may fail.

> I rather have a solid state system that merely requires voltage to operate
> than the complex system of moving parts, linear actuators, hydraulic
> actuators, and fly by wire electronics that is currently required.

The current systems also have millions/billions of hours of _proven flight
time_ , as well as the knowledge gleaned from thousands of crash
investigations. I'd rather fly on a current system. Also, a plasma aircraft
could certainly have a fly-by-wire control also.

~~~
doikor
> The current systems also have millions/billions of hours of proven flight
> time, as well as the knowledge gleaned from thousands of crash
> investigations. I'd rather fly on a current system. Also, a plasma aircraft
> could certainly have a fly-by-wire control also.

That same reasoning could have been (was?) used against fly-by-wire systems.
Why add this additional complexity of a system that does not have the millions
of flight hours of the old system.

Just like most aviation tech it probably will first be used by the military
for something crazy and then slowly come down to civilian usage. (I imagine
the air force commanders would like to have their tanker/radar/non stealth
planes have 25% longer flight time/range)

~~~
digler999
Just guessing, but the industry likely migrated to fly-by-wire because of some
quantifiable benefit, either from software-aided stability correction, or
reduced risk of a mechanical failure. Maybe they proved that its less likely
for FBW to fail than it is for a cable to snap ?

I'm not against using plasma, btw. I'm just saying if one were built today,
I'd prefer to trust existing designs until they have a decade or more of
testing done.

------
sp0ck
Now we know why most of UFO's always have eerie glow. It's just actuators :)

~~~
Rooster61
That wasn't plasma. UFO's have vents that emit swamp gas around the vehicle.

~~~
mcguire
That technology was adopted by airplane manufacturers in the '70s---it's the
contrails. (The side effects of those are just a happy accident.) All that
stuff about ticket prices based on oil prices? It's a scam. They don't use any
fuel.

~~~
reitanqild
Should have been more funny if I hadn't argued for 30 minutes last year with
someone who honestly believed this and was trying to sell this to a younger
somewhat gullible (it seems) friend of mine.

The guy who tried to convince us was well spoken, serious, in a middle
management position and seemed to have swallowed it hook, line and sinker
himself.

~~~
lallysingh
If you know a few guys like that, you have a future in enterprise sales.

~~~
reitanqild
Thanks! I actually have though I might move on to sales some day, maybe.

If I put the same effort into that as programming maybe I could succeed.

Edit: everything ;-)

------
Rooster61
300% range increase on a drone size vehicle, huh? Imagine the application to
conventional jet travel. This would revolutionize the industry, letting jets
fly far further than they currently can.

~~~
aardvark291
> drone size vehicle

How big is "drone size"?

[https://www.amazon.com/DJI-Phantom-Aerial-Drone-
Quadcopter/d...](https://www.amazon.com/DJI-Phantom-Aerial-Drone-
Quadcopter/dp/B00AGOSQI8)

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northrop_Grumman_RQ-4_Global_H...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northrop_Grumman_RQ-4_Global_Hawk)

~~~
Rooster61
They say predator sized drone in the article. My comment was based on that.

------
sametmax
Jean-Pierre Petit have been talking about this for many years, but has been
considered a sweet lunatic. The fact he is a UFO believer didn't help, but
it's too bad they discarded all his ideas because of it.

------
strongai
Hats off to all those sci-fi stories that described future aircraft as
enclosed by glowing silhouettes of various colors. We're living in the future
:0)

------
sevenless
So much for billions of years of blind evolution. Take _that_ , Mother Nature!
Don't see birds flying around with goddamn plasma wings, do you?

------
sandworm101
What happens when it rains? Wouldn't moisture increase the electrical
conductivity of air to the point of defeating such devices, or at least
radically increasing the energy required? And if that is true, wouldn't random
differences in local moisture at various actuators on different parts of the
plane, say while approaching a wet runway, result in randomized effects?

~~~
Filligree
Rainwater isn't actually very conductive, being pretty close to pure water.
Water itself isn't conductive without contaminants.

That said? Good question! I can't imagine that throwing physical droplets
through the plasma would help, but maybe it wouldn't hurt.

If it turns out to be a problem, then you'd have to design planes that still
work without the plasma.

~~~
sandworm101
I'd say that rainwater isn't all that pure, but setting conductivity aside,
what about basic heat? Plasma is hot, very hot. Rain, liquid water, is very
cold. To keep the plasma you would have to vaporize the water. That requires
massive energy. And the amount of water on a wing is insane. Even if not on
the leading edge, lots of water flows along the wing surfaces. At 300km/hour
it would be like randomly pouring buckets directly on the plasma shown in the
OP. I doubt it could be made stable enough without heating the entire wing
red-hot.

~~~
ridgeguy
There are cold plasmas. Some of these "non thermal" plasmas have been used to
disinfect wounds. It's odd to see a column of ionized air exiting a tube and
impinging on bare skin, but it's one application in development for cold
plasmas. [1]

[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nonthermal_plasma](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nonthermal_plasma)

------
woliveirajr
The article mentions airplanes and trucks, but what about trains? So much of
the design is made to reduce air drag (look at ICE and TGV) and friction.

I bet plasma could find some uses there, too, even as an upgrade to those old
and slow models that are still in use.

Would love to have a company selling upgrade to freight trains.

------
iaw
Serious question: ignoring issues with O3 toxicity, could you strap a plasma
wind generator to the front of a car to create downforce and reduce air
resistance?

Thinking through it I suspect the numbers don't line up for it to be
feasible/economic but I've often wondered how we could displace the air in
front of a vehicle without impeding the vehicles travel in doing so.

------
byebyetech
>>“A tiny push at the right place and time can excite a much larger, and often
positive, result.”

I have to agree with that.

------
ape4
It would make me nervous to fly in a plane without physical actuators. But
maybe I'm old fashioned.

~~~
mertd
If it makes you feel any better, the actuators of the physical actuators
haven't been physical for more than a decade now.

~~~
DiabloD3
What are they, then?

~~~
wmeredith
Solid state electronic, I'd imagine. Either way, without electricity, you're
not flying anymore.

~~~
hexane360
If it makes you feel better, they've been dealing with electrical failure for
years now. Each engine generates enough to power the airplane. Additionally,
there are backup batteries and backup generators on board.

The 757/767 even has a pop-down turbine as a last resort.

Worst case, the power capacities of these systems needs to be beefed up. And
like you hinted, flying a large plane without hydraulic power is practically
impossible anyways. It's not a huge leap from that to plasma actuators.

------
Shivetya
Okay, so how does it fair in rain, ice, and snow, laden weather?

------
sunstone
This kind of stuff might work in the hyperloop.

~~~
m0llusk
This technology uses plasma to influence air flow, but the hyperloop uses a
near vacuum to facilitate travel. Nothing to push against, as is said.

~~~
sunstone
Even with the low vacuum the hyperloop's air resistance is still considerable
at the speed it's going. That's why Musk's original white paper suggests a big
fan in the front to move air from the front to the back the vehicle. So there
still would be a substantial element of airflow.

------
mrfusion
Guys lets patent putting this on golf balls!

------
Noseshine
Question: Would that lead to some unfavorable chemical reactions that create
undesirable molecules that we don't want to have in the atmosphere? It's an
incredibly tiny effect per plane, but over time and given the amount of
planes... so obviously only a problem for stable molecules that remain up
there for a long time. I had the subject in a chemistry lecture, but it's been
quite a while so I don't remember any details.

~~~
Rooster61
Not really. Ozone is the primary byproduct of producing a plasma in our
atmosphere, and it is really only a problem when it is released at lower
altitudes. Releasing it in the upper atmosphere where jets usually cruise
would be harmless, if not beneficial to the existing ozone layer.

Not to mention the fact that any byproduct produced by a plasma would be
infinitesimal compared to the amount of NOx produced by jet engines.

~~~
sp332
The article mentions that plasma also produces a lot of nitrogen ions. Would
this increase NOx production?

~~~
Rooster61
Probably. Oxygen and Nitrogen react quite a bit in the upper atmosphere where
there is plenty of sunlight to initiate reactions. There is a litany of
byproducts that can be produced, including NOx.

