

What I Did When I Couldn't Find a Job [in the US] - kranner
http://chronicle.com/article/What-I-Did-When-I-Couldnt/66281/
For anyone curious about what Sikkim looks like...
http://www.flickr.com/search/?q=sikkim
======
patio11
_grumble grumble_ I would never have expected legions of twentysomethings who
want to work for noncommercial causes using expensive degrees which impart no
skills more advanced than a GED to have so much difficulty finding great jobs
right after college.

~~~
mechanical_fish
So, if (or, perhaps, when) all the people with liberal arts degrees go back to
Javaschool and emerge in a couple of years with M.S. degrees in CS, is your
company going to hire them all?

Or are you just jerking them around?

We've been down this road before. In the 1990s, everyone flocked to "CS"
school to get in on all the sweet, sweet jobs of the future. Was the aftermath
of that fun for anyone?

It is often read, on HN, that it isn't enough to just go through the motions
of getting a technical degree. You need other qualities to succeed. The person
with all the right qualities is rare. True enough. But does this mean that
only those rare people with the right qualities deserve to live outside of
poverty, or the imminent risk of poverty?

My father has a degree in political science. Fortunately, the economy wasn't
broken in the 1960s, so he was able to get a white-collar job, buy a house,
and have kids, like most other people with "basic" college degrees in the
1960s. Back then it was even expected that you could have a decent life with a
mere high school diploma, or that GED you mention.

That doesn't work so well anymore. Is that a good thing? Be careful what you
wish for. We are well on our way to building a society in which you can't have
a middle-class lifestyle as, say, an insurance underwriter or medical records
clerk without a college degree _in a technical or professional field_ , or
maybe an M.S. degree. I think that's a bad idea. Many people have more
education than they need, and an increasing number of people have more
education than they want (considering that they have to go into debt for it,
up front). Forcing unwilling people to struggle through advanced degrees tends
to produce a lot of stress and pain, water down the advanced degrees, dilute
the pool of degree holders, and waste absolutely _enormous_ amounts of time.

Oh, and it produces unnecessary barriers to entry. We could require all hotel
administrators to hold an advanced degree in hotel administration. How does
that sound to the AirBnB folks?

And all it does is buy time. In the end, jobs are as much about the demand for
labor as the quality of the supply. Ph.D.s can be unemployed too. Highly
trained semiconductor engineers can be unemployed. Automotive engineers are
probably not doing so well right now.

Shadenfreude has an evil reputation for a reason. Please try to resist the
temptation.

~~~
yummyfajitas
_Fortunately, the economy wasn't broken in the 1960s, so he was able to get a
white-collar job, buy a house, and have kids,[...] That doesn't work so well
anymore. [...] We are well on our way to building a society in which you can't
have a middle-class lifestyle as, say, an insurance underwriter or medical
records clerk..._

This statement just reflects a lack of understanding of what "middle class"
meant in 1960. The standard of living of the American poor today is quite
high, in many regards higher than the standard of living of the middle class
in 1960.

[http://www.heritage.org/research/reports/2004/01/understandi...](http://www.heritage.org/research/reports/2004/01/understanding-
poverty-in-america)

Fun fact: in 1960, a coffee maker cost $29.95 and the average household income
was just under $5000. In 2010, the coffee maker costs $12.95 and the average
salary is about $50,000.

[http://www.dadsvintageads.com/viewitem.php/dadsvintageads/pd...](http://www.dadsvintageads.com/viewitem.php/dadsvintageads/pd959405/Vintage_Ad_1960_Toastmaster_Toaster_Coffee_Maker_Fry_Pan)

~~~
hga
According to the BLS, the $29.95 that coffee maker cost in 1960 would be $221
in 2010 dollars.

I know your $5,000 vs. $50,000 figures are very rough, but $5,000 in 1960
would be $36,855 in 2010 dollars (and after taxes is not trivial, e.g. the
personal exemptions that sheltered average families from the full and _very_
high tax rates in the '50s were largely nullified by inflation over the next
couple of decades before Reagan started a variety of corrections).

~~~
mhb
He's saying that the quality of life improvement provided by a coffee maker in
1960 consumed 0.6% of the typical 1960 middle class salary vs. 0.03% of a
typical 2010 middle class salary. A 20x reduction in cost for the same quality
of life improvement for the middle class, in this example.

What additional insight do your numbers provide?

~~~
hga
I think it's easier to understand how much cheaper the coffee maker is today,
both in terms of absolute price and what people can afford, if you translate
it into today's dollars. "It would cost $221" is a lot more visceral than 0.6%
of a putative generic annual salary.

One thing I added was "doing the math"; yummyfajitas didn't go that far (which
is no reflection on his posting) ... plus I think it's useful to point out
just how significant inflation has been over the years.

~~~
mhb
The value of the percentage metric is that it allows you to compare a certain
benefit in terms of the work it took to obtain it at different times. Given
2000 hours/year of work, it would have taken 12 hours of work to buy a coffee
maker in 1960 vs. 0.6 hours of work in 2010.

To me, this makes the comparison exceedingly easy to understand.

~~~
hga
Yes, that metric is also good, although not as visceral as the one I used.
It's also timeless whereas someone reading my comment 20, 50, whatever years
from now wouldn't be helped as much.

------
sushi
I think finding a job is never difficult considering one is ready to sacrifice
the luxuries one has gotten accustomed to. Almost every American graduate can
find a job in India. I know the outsourcing companies won't even ask you a
question and hire you readily. It's just about making adjustments for the time
being which I'm afraid many American graduates might have to make in the down
economy.

I have been to Sikkim and it's one of the most beautiful places I have seen.
I'd gladly move to Sikkim if only there was better and stable internet
connection there. Correct me if I am wrong.

By the way, people can not buy land in Sikkim (only the people from the state
can, not even the rest of Indians) so one will have to get do with a rented
place which should be quite cheap even for an Indian like me.

~~~
spudlyo
There are lots of places in India that are difficult for Westerners to live
in. The lack of running water, toilet paper, and unreliable electricity was
very challenging for my friend who spent 6 months in Hyderabad. He also picked
up a very bad stomach flu that knocked him on his ass for a month.

------
all
Desperate times call for desperate measures, and this certainly is extreme.
Unfortunately, his path is not easily replicated, and he recognises this. I
have heard of others who move to India to take the job that they would have in
the US because that is where their company moved it. But finding a job in a
downturn is often a matter of being resourceful and thinking outside the box,
not of wholesale relocation. I would be surprised if 1% of those who read this
article are able to put in practice what this guy did.

------
rflrob
It seems to me that the calculations of how he's saving money relative to
staying at home is offset a fair bit by the cost of airfare. All the same, I
don't think that means one shouldn't do things like this---the experience
(both professional and personal) is difficult to measure, but pretty valuable.

------
kranner
For anyone curious about what Sikkim looks like...
<http://www.flickr.com/search/?q=sikkim>

------
kogir
The thing I don't understand is how few people in the US are willing to move
to a different state, nevermind another country. There's plenty of work for
those willing to seek it and be flexible.

~~~
zephyrfalcon
Moving often has a hefty cost, and not just financially.

~~~
loganfrederick
So does being unemployed. Sometimes you have to make the tough decisions.

------
amohr
There's been a lot of hating on us poor liberal arts graduates that didn't
have the foresight to know that our education was going to invariably lead to
crushing, static unemployment, so I figure I'd throw in my $.02

I've been building and tinkering with computers since I was 11 and it has
always been sort of a foregone conclusion that I would go into CS or compe.
But when I started college, for a number of reasons, I decided I wanted to
study physics. But a few years in, I realized I wasn't really getting the
full-bodied education that I was hoping for. I noticed this in myself as well
as my peers in comparable science/engineering programs. It turns out, many of
the programs that leave you with marketable skills necessarily sacrifice
breadth of understanding.

This isn't to say all cs grads know nothing of the world, but it was a
noticeable problem. There is, of course, virtue in training people to think
only about a single field and think about it deeply and constantly. But I
didn't want to be one of those people, so I switched to Political Science.

Political Science, at my school, was an interdisciplinary program - it allowed
students to design their own concentrations within the framework of the
program. Because of this, I was able to take advanced level courses in
philosophy, music theory, english, astrophysics, economics, and computer
science. No I'm not an expert on any of these, but I have the groundwork to
understand any of them that I wish to personally pursue further. And many of
them, I have.

Of course, after five years of college, I finally realized that I'm most
passionate about writing, advertising, and technology, but I'm stuck competing
against people with more specifically tailored credentials. This is obviously
a problem, and I'm not going to claim I haven't spent nights wishing I had
just stuck with something that would land me a job and a life of comfort. But
comfort is as dangerous as it is pleasant and a lack of it often spurs the
greatest innovation. That last part, however, I'm still working on.

But what about my CS friends? Some of them are legitimately well-rounded and
interesting people... and some sold their souls at 100 hr/wk at nyc firms
making 100k but they'll never see the world with the appreciative eyes of the
destitute - they'll always want more because that's all they've ever been
taught to value. Many will live lives hopelessly seeking satisfaction through
abundance.

Save your pity for those guys, thank you.

PS: I don't really think all these guys are doomed because they took high-
stress, high-paying jobs, I just wanted to represent the other side of the
coin. Don't assume all LAS grads are forever useless... also, if you have the
means, hire one. (specifically, me)

------
tomjen3
What was really funny was that he moved back home, then when he couldn't find
a job there, he moved to India.

If you have a political science degree, why not move to Washington?

------
ebun
So the author moved to India after being unable to find a job, but at some
point, I assume they plan to return.

What do you think about his job prospects when he returns (regardless of the
work; just taking into account that he opted to spend a year or 2 abroad like
this)?

~~~
Dilpil
It's a pretty interesting story to put on a resume or cover letter- I'd
imagine he will at least be able to get some interviews.

~~~
ebun
I don't doubt it, I'm just curious as to why you, or any other HNers, would
find it interesting. What skills do you think would be applicable or
transferable?

 __full disclosure: I'm in a somewhat similar situation right now __

~~~
kolektiv
Well, I know that if I were interviewing this chap (and I am interviewing
people quite a bit) I would be at least impressed by his having shown some
initiative. I would also say that someone who is willing and able to go and
live fairly happily in a quite different cultural and lingual context than
they may be used to, has shown themselves to be adaptable, inquisitive, and
keen to learn.

Even in a poor economy, demonstrating those qualities still stands out. Almost
certainly the most common reason for failing when interviewing with me is the
"I haven't had a chance to..." story. Often this is in the context of
software. "I haven't had a chance to try this language or that language" What
they mean is that previous jobs haven't used it. They could easily have learnt
about it in their own time - it just wasn't a priority for them. Which is fair
enough - but you will lose out against those who turn "would like to do" in to
"done".

------
maximumwage
Comments on every story like this follow the same predictable pattern. On Digg
and Reddit, it's basically: "Haha, dumb liberal arts major! Of course you
can't find work in the USA! You deserve what you get because we live in a just
and fair world and everyone is responsible for everything that happens to them
in life and the consequences of all their decisions!" Some of the comments
here are similar, but other comments point out the fallacies in that line of
thought. As someone who was a high school valedictorian who wanted to get a CS
or business degree, but ended up with a Bachelor of General Studies in
English, I've given lots of thought to why students get liberal arts degrees.
Most students are unprepared for college-level classes, especially in
mathematics. Despite having a perfect GPA in high school, I failed calculus -
not because of partying (I didn't drink) but because I was totally unprepared
for college-level math after bad high-school math classes. Mental illness is
also a major reason why lots of people can't handle the rigors of an
engineering or even business degree. According to NIMH, 26% of Americans age
18 or older suffer from a diagnosable mental disorder [1]. Also, 40 percent of
students have felt too depressed to function at sometime during their college
career [2]. Throughout college, I had: never had a girlfriend or even kissed a
girl, worried all the time about the end of the world and other potential
threats, had never learned how to masturbate, and was concerned over whether
God loved or hated me. Now THAT's mental illness! When they have a heavy
cognitive load from mental illness, students are less able to deal with
challenging classes. Finally, after going through the stress of being being
unprepared for college classes and suffering from mental illness, many
students end up with humanities degrees because they figure "at least it's a
degree in something" and that any degree is better than no degree, because
that's the message being broadcast from tons of outlets - guidance counselors,
college advertising, college advisors, etc.

[1] [http://www.nimh.nih.gov/health/publications/the-numbers-
coun...](http://www.nimh.nih.gov/health/publications/the-numbers-count-mental-
disorders-in-america/index.shtml)

[2] [http://www.jedfoundation.com/press-room/news-
archive/Student...](http://www.jedfoundation.com/press-room/news-
archive/Students-with-mental-troubles-on-rise)

~~~
oconnore
That's not a mental illness. That's some sort of an existential crisis. I
recommend you stop worrying about problems you can't solve, and start living.
It's the only way you will find out what God thinks of you, or whether girls
like you, or whether the earth will end.

And everyone is unprepared for college (as they were for high-school, or
elementary, or kindergarten, and especially for their first job). The
difference is in how they approach it. Personally, I locked myself in the
library until I could do Calculus problems blindfolded, and then went to the
bar to celebrate with my friends. Your results may vary. Note that feeling
persecuted and defeated after you flunk a Calculus test is not a viable
solution.

Sorry for being harsh.

~~~
maximumwage
I had a lot of other symptoms and was diagnosed with anxiety by a real doctor
(not by internet commenters). Plus I had very high scores on inventories that
are used to measure anxiety and depression. Also, SPECT and fMRI studies show
that people with depression and anxiety have very different brains than people
who are mentally healthy, indicating that some people have a baseline level of
resilience that's higher than others. And tough love doesn't work. It's just
another way to beat up on people who already feel beaten down. I still agree
with most of your points, though.

------
known
A comprehensive guide to <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simple_living>

~~~
billswift
For _real_ simple living [http://www.amazon.com/Possum-living-without-almost-
money/pro...](http://www.amazon.com/Possum-living-without-almost-
money/product-
reviews/0553136259/ref=sr_1_4_cm_cr_acr_txt?ie=UTF8&showViewpoints=1&qid=1280103672&sr=8-4)

------
elblanco
I wonder how many weeks he had to save up that $10/wk in order to afford the
upcoming round trip back home?

------
acgourley
I guess he doesn't have student loans.

------
jab
I don't really get the "couldn't find a job" part. I moved to a new city 4
months ago on a whim, and I had several companies bidding on me. I'm good, but
I doubt I'm that good.

~~~
jemfinch
I doubt you're a polisci major.

------
roschdal
This is a very inspirational story!

