

Ask HN: Can you make a living with free flash games? - scotty79

Any of you or your friends heard any success stories?
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benologist
I know lots of flash game developers and I make lots of games. And also the
premiere analytics system (<http://playtomic.com>, formerly SWFStats) for
those games. My best game grossed about $6k and netted about $4k, my most
recent game went wrong and sold for a lousy $1250.

The economics can be pretty bad, a lot of people don't make much money but
they also don't make quality games or read the market. There are success
stories, Hero Interactive, Berzerk Studio, Nitrome, Armor Games, Long Animals
etc.

You should check out <http://www.flashgamelicense.com/> it's a site where
developers sell the sponsorship rights for their games. The guys who run it
are very helpful and there's a forum full of information and a chatroom where
you can usually find me and a bunch of other people trolling away.

In a nutshell: Mochi and CPMStar offer ads to go in the games. Mochi's CPM is
usually pretty awful (I've served 6m+ ads for a lousy grand), CPMStar
generally pays more but is more exclusive, it's harder to get them in your
game.

GamerSafe (run by the FGL guys) and Mochi both have virtual goods/transactions
platforms to charge for stuff in your game, I haven't used either yet.

Sponsorship is usually going to be the major source of revenue. Kongregate,
Armor, Addicting etc pay for the branding rights in your game (the splash
screens etc). This can go high into the 5 digits if you're talented enough -
there are guys pulling 6 digits a year off this stuff, a couple that might be
inching close to 7, and a _lot_ that make between $0 and bugger all.

Andy Moore who was the community manager for Fantastic Contraption and then
went on to make games himself has an awesome writeup about his game
Steambirds:

<http://www.andymoore.ca/2010/03/steambirds-by-the-numbers/>

Chris Gregorio (xdragonx10) who makes the Medieval Rampage games amongst
others has a great breakdown of his earnings and strategy here:

<http://kaitol.com/income/>

~~~
trix
great post with great links. thanks

how do we save posts in HN?

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anonjoe123
There are a couple ways to do it.

1\. In game ads. When I was at MochiMedia, the top game developers earned
around $10k/month, so it is possible. That said, there were only a handful
that were able to do that well. Most people made far less. Even games that you
would consider very successful made around $200-$400/month. The money to
developers is around a $0.25 CPM. That means to make $250 in a month you need
1MM game plays.

2\. Virtual Goods. Since I left Mochi, they started their MochiCoins program
where developers can sell virtual goods directly to game players. I don't know
the official numbers, but I heard the successful guys were doing as much as
$1k/day. Again, that's the top end and most people were far lower. The bar is
much higher in creating a good game here as you're going to try and get a user
to actually pay for it.

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reitzensteinm
Can you make games already? Good game design is hard, and I wouldn't suggest
taking the plunge and going full time if you intend to learn along the way.

If you do know how to make fun games, it's possible to make money with
determination using an ad supported site and games. Small, free games are a
good way to build up traffic to your site, and also a good way to learn what
kind of games will find an audience.

Ultimately though, for a successful game with a decent amount of depth, you'll
make so much more money charging players that it'll be crazy to keep them
free. At least 10x more per visitor if you at some point ask for money.

Some background on who you are and why you're asking would be helpful in
giving a more detailed answer!

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gosub
"You Should Be Making A Premium Flash Game"
[http://blog.gambrinous.com/2009/10/07/you-should-be-
making-a...](http://blog.gambrinous.com/2009/10/07/you-should-be-making-a-
premium-flash-game/)

~~~
corysama
I would be very interested in hearing a professional flash developer's
response to this article. Larkin is asserting that the "MochiAds +
FlashGameLicense" route is a well-marketed way for you to make money for
MochiAds and FlashGameLicense, but not much for yourself. Instead, he proposes
that the freemium model can produce much higher returns to the developer.

~~~
gambrinous
The current model for free flash games (licensing + ads) does make money for
devs alright, I just think that devs charging players can do even better.

I think it goes like this, very generally: 1\. Free game w/ licensing + ads
2\. For-sale game (backed up with free version for distribution) 3\.
Persistantly free game w/ usual freemium hooks

You can make more as you go further down, but there's also a lot more work
involved.

------
some1else
I liked the article "Have You Partnered With Thieves And Robbers" by Alok
Kejriwal of Games2Win. There he describes how they managed to outsmart various
portals pirating their games by showing ads only when the game runs outside of
their domain, thereby compensating for loss of licensing fees, and using the
pirate portals as a distribution mechanism.

<http://indiamicrofinance.com/partnered-thieves-robbers.html>

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patio11
Much like iPhone development, right now I think the stronger play might be
contracting for companies who want Flash games made.

The success curve for this looks a lot less intimidating than the success
curve for game development generally. (Which is even more painful than the
success curve for "selling software on the Internet", which is already pretty
brutal.)

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dwynings
Badim wrote one of the most detailed posts I've come across on his revenue
from Casual Flash game development: [http://blog.elite-
games.net/blog4.php/2009/12/17/total-reven...](http://blog.elite-
games.net/blog4.php/2009/12/17/total-revenue-from-last-2-years)

------
commanda
All of Zynga's flash games are free, and players have the option to purchase
virtual currency in the games. The vast majority of players probably don't pay
a cent for the entire lifespan of their playing. I'd say Zynga is definitely
making a living.

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ronnier
I remember reading an article awhile back about either Vector TD or Desktop
Tower Defense doing very well, although I'm not able to find the article.

<http://www.candystand.com/play/vector-td>

<http://www.handdrawngames.com/DesktopTD/Game3.asp>

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fragmede
Kongregate was recently bought out by Gamestop (for an undisclosed sum) and
all they did was host free flash games (a gross oversimplification).

<http://techcrunch.com/2010/07/27/gamestop-kongregate/>

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mhd
Right now I think a relevant question is what's the difference between the
revenue you'd get from free flash games and that you'd get from similar games
on Android/iOS.

~~~
benologist
It's the exact same risk really, and that is it's very, very easy to make a
game nobody plays on Flash, Android or iOS.

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flatulent1
With increasing numbers of users disabling Flash and some going with platforms
that don't support Flash, the writing is on the wall. It's time to look to
other platforms than Flash. Between Android and the Apple there are other
areas experiencing major growth, easy to reach customers, and simple options
for sales or ad driven income.

Flash games are already a big gamble of time and resources, with the odds of a
decent return getting worse. Our shop bailed out over a year ago and don't
regret it.

~~~
woodall
It think this is a gross generalizations. Youtube is still very popular. In
order for the average joe to watch a video, flash must be enabled OR they have
to be using an html5 compatible browser. That is the difference. Many users
will not/can not go out and buy the newest toys.

Still focus on flash, as it is not going any where any time soon, but also
diversify your funds. If you make a flash game try to also port it to html5 so
that you can reach the Android/Apple iP(ad)hone market, and if you can't...
don't sweat it.

~~~
benologist
Adobe's making massive moves to get Flash gaming on Android. At the moment
they have 3 big competitions running with Kongregate, FlashGameLicense and
MochiMedia to get games designed to work on Android.

