
PayPal Suspends WikiLeaks Account  - malte
http://thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/12/04/paypal-suspends-wikileaks-account/
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Roritharr
I just closed my PayPal account because of this.

Here is a direct Link if you want to do it yourself.
<https://www.paypal.com/us/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=_close-account>

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Vivtek
I can't close my PayPal account yet (although I will be encouraging my
European customers to move to Moneybookers), but ... there's no way to email
them about their own corporate actions. Does anybody know of an email address
that I can just address with a complaint? Although a paper letter with a real
stamp may get their attention more effectively...

~~~
Roritharr
Moneybookers already blocked Wikileaks. Sorry :(

[http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2010/oct/14/wikileaks-
says-f...](http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2010/oct/14/wikileaks-says-funding-
is-blocked)

~~~
Vivtek
Well, damn.

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vaksel
Gotta give props to wikileaks for opening the eyes of many to the type of
country they live in.

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jessor
Paypal also took the account of the Wau Holland Stiftung because they collect
money for wikileaks.

 _PayPal told us we are "in violation of PayPal's Acceptable Use Policy
regarding (...) financial support to Wikileaks" and took our account._
<http://twitter.com/#!/wauland/status/10987193778569216>

~~~
kgarten
PayPal went over board with this, as the Wau Holland Foundation just gave
money to Wikileaks for a specific purpose holding them accountable for any
spendings. It is impossible to argue that the money from the foundation was
used for any illegal/criminal activity.

~~~
trevelyan
I donated and have written Paypal to ask for clarification on why the account
was closed and what their policy is for returning the money or seeing it
through to the intended recipient, etc.

Hopefully others who donated will do this as well so that there are at least
some customer service costs associated with this. As you mention, there
doesn't seem to be much if any illegality about the activities that I can
spot, and fair use for political speech covers the rest.

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kilian
I just donated via Paypal yesterday. Guess I'll donate again, but via credit
card, today.

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lwhi
Where exactly will that money go??

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kilian
As usual, probably collecting interest for paypal. I made a formal complaint
demanding it back. If they don't reply timely I'm deleting my account.

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navyrain
Being frustrated with PayPal's poor support, but pleased with its ubiquity,
this was an lost opportunity for PayPal to earn my goodwill. I, for one, am
advocating against paypal from now on.

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gbrindisi
I am reading a lot of boycott statement against Paypal in the comments – and I
fully understand – but guys... where have you been when Amazon refused to host
Wikileaks? And what about EasyDNS?

Paypal is a company doing business and I dislike them as much as you do but
please don't forget that Government >> Company. Always.

~~~
steveklabnik
Amazon is much harder for me to move away from than PayPal. with PayPal, I
just transfer my money out and click the cancel button.

With Amazon, I have to re-do my entire deployment setup, since Heroku has made
it so freaking easy. Not to mention migrate all of my addon accounts too...
significantly more complicated.

I'll still do it, it just won't happen today.

~~~
Vivtek
I have the same problem with PayPal. 70% of my income comes from Europe
through PayPal. I'm seriously considering moving to Moneybookers, though, for
my European customers. This really stinks.

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cloudwalking
A lot of corporations are coming out against Wikileaks, and I don't feel the
same way. What are they considering that I'm not

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stretchwithme
They're considering how uncomfortable it is to have their arms twisted.

~~~
kmfrk
Letting PayPal keep all Wikileaks' donation money for themselves is not
exactly something that requires that much arm-twisting. They've done it
before, and now they have a scapegoat.

~~~
cubicle67
yeah, what's the story with that? Shouldn't the money either be given to
Wikileaks (unlikely) or returned the the donor? In what sort of world can the
middle man cut one side of a deal out, and keep the money?

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ra
Exactly. Who's the criminal in this picture?

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billmcneale
WikiLeaks. They stole documents and they are publishing them without the
consent of the owners. The fact that this owner is the government is
irrelevant.

How would you feel if it were your personal emails that were published on a
public web site like this?

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rue
Just on the off-chance that you are serious: it is of the utmost importance
that the owner is a government, not a private person. The argument is that the
government is keeping secrets from its people without the people being able to
change that by normal means.

You are also incorrect about Wikileaks stealing any documents. They are only
publishing.

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bjonathan
Huge marketing opportunity for WePay! (and also a huge opportunity to do the
right thing)

~~~
buro9
Are WePay being used by Wikileaks?

How will WePay as a US company offer any real guarantee not to do the same?

Can WePay make any commitment or guarantee given that they are integrated into
a system and other entities (i.e. Visa, Mastercard, etc) could pull their plug
over this?

I'm really just curious. If WePay honestly will do the right thing and treat
money as money regardless of how people choose to spend it (the whole thing
here... porn, politics, etc) and to do so with a real guarantee that means
this can never happen, then I just do not see how this is any opportunity for
them.

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nerfhammer
And how will WePay's board like this idea?

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veeti
There's a mistake in this article: Wikileaks DNS wasn't provided by EasyDNS,
but by EveryDNS.

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Flow
Considering PayPal is actually a real bank in many countries, can they really
discriminate like this without a proper legal process first?

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acabal
Paypal suspends my account at least once a month just because I sometimes use
a different IP when logging in, I'm honestly shocked they didn't do this to
Wikileaks earlier.

~~~
jessor
They did: [http://slashdot.org/story/10/01/23/2138204/PayPal-Freezes-
th...](http://slashdot.org/story/10/01/23/2138204/PayPal-Freezes-the-Assets-
of-Wikileaksorg)

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marquis
According to wikileaks you can still donate by credit card via
<https://donations.datacell.com>. I'm not clear if the processor is based in
Iceland or Switzerland.

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robryan
Since when can what Wikileaks does be considered criminal activity? I'd think
that it's at least not clear cut enough that companies would wait for some
kind of conviction before labeling it all illegal/criminal activity.

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randallsquared
Er, PayPal has only ever needed vague suspicion to close an account and keep
the money.

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Keyframe
TBH, I was amazed they didn't pull the plug sooner, considering all the
negativity surrounding paypal. I haven't had any issues with paypal myself,
but reading all the stories from other people having issues with them... I
don't know, I would really REALLY like to have an alternative somewhere, but
sadly there isn't one.

~~~
steveklabnik
Usually, PayPal is "evil" because of false positives on fraud. They'd know
that an account for an organization like WikiLeaks is legit.

There is a YC-company alternative: <https://www.wepay.com/>

~~~
Keyframe
I'm sorry, I meant paypal alternative for payments and money transfers through
internet, not as a collection/donation service for groups. Sad fact is that
nothing is as widespread as paypal. And even paypal doesn't have an option to
receive money here (Croatia) because national bank (governs bank policies
among other things) wants them to be regulated like other banks here, so
they're "talking about it".

To me, it sounds like a pretty obvious route for a startup disruption
opportunity. I guess bar is set too high (financially and logistically) for a
small-ish startup to make a significant entry to that market (global). There
are compatible businesses that could make a significant entry/impact, but they
didn't do it (Western Union, Moneybookers, Google Checkout, Amazon...) - I
always wondered why (if we choose to ignore the stronghold of ebay paypal has
behind it).

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steveklabnik
What, you're not just a group of one? ;) But yeah, dunno about Croatia...

The bar is extremely high, mostly due to fraud, from what I understand. We
only hear about false positives, but it's a huge problem.

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random42
Well, I hope all this does not come as a surprise to Wikileaks.

They are essentially screwing the US government, and using services (Paypal,
Amazon etc.) which are incorporated in the US, and operates under the US
regulations.

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lwhi
And so, we begin to see the far-fetched narrative of Sandra Bullocks 'The Net'
start to swing into full effect.

Who'd have thought it would become so prescient ...

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hackermom
I'm surprised PayPal didn't "bend over" sooner on this one. No more will I use
PayPal.

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csomar
Please don't blame PayPal that much. If you have been in their situation,
you'll very likely do the same. So if you have any issues, go and blame the US
gov.

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cubicle67
er, no. I blame PayPal fully.

~~~
iwr
While PayPal deserves the negative rep for screwing their customers, it
doesn't deserve it for being a US corporation, vulnerable to the US
government. The bad guy here is not PayPal.

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ghostDancer
Paypal is helping and aiding the bad guy. So what does that make them??
Minions ?? An image : [http://milhaud.tumblr.com/post/2091089035/julian-
assange-es-...](http://milhaud.tumblr.com/post/2091089035/julian-assange-es-
portada-de-la-revista-time-con)

~~~
iwr
Can PayPal really afford to say no? The government has many ways it can make
life miserable for the company.

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dualogy
Isn't that the VERY PROBLEM Wikileaks is showcasing here?

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sliverstorm
It's a problem that a company has to obey the laws of the country it resides
in?

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SwellJoe
What laws, in particular, did you have in mind? Wikileaks has not, to the best
of my knowledge, been charged with any violation of law in the United States
(or anywhere else, for that matter).

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Vivtek
Much less did Amazon or PayPal violate any law.

~~~
SwellJoe
I don't see anyone suggesting Amazon or PayPal violated any laws in this
discussion, but maybe I missed it. _I_ certainly haven't made such a
suggestion.

~~~
Vivtek
That was my impression of silverstorm's comment - that PayPal has to comply
with US law and thus shouldn't be denigrated for this decision. Not even
Wikileaks has been shown to have violated US law, but my point was that Yahoo
and PayPal can't even rely on the fact that they have to comply with US law,
because they haven't violated it at all.

Well. They may have _now_ \- PayPal in particular could be accused of fraud
for freezing an account unless they release the funds relatively quickly. This
might even have the kind of visibility that would result in that kind of good
outcome.

Wikileaks really is shining light on a lot of roaches this week...

