
Prostitution decriminalized: Rhode Island’s experiment - MaysonL
http://www.newsworks.org/index.php/local/item/105393-prostitution-decriminalized-rhode-islands-experiment
======
andrewstuart
It's weird seeing this. In Australia prostitution is completely legal. There
was actually a publicly listed brothel for a while. Strange to think other
societies criminalise it.

I think being legal is best for the health and wellbeing of the sex workers
and minimises the criminal involvement.

There are brothels all over the place but mostly they are pretty low key,
often hidden in backstreets or warehouse areas with only a red light and a
sign to indicate they exist.

I wish we had such an enlightened position on drugs, which remain almost
completely criminalized, whilst other parts of the world move towards
legalization of various aspects of drug law.

~~~
ClassyJacket
Yeah. A bunch of my friends are sex workers. They make literally ten times as
much money as me per hour and love their jobs.

~~~
quickthrower2
Says more about how little tech workers are paid in Australia, than anything
else. Work for Google in US and earn more than a hooker!

~~~
toomanybeersies
Not sure where in America is paying $300 per hour for software developers.

~~~
chii
in the valley as an "rockstar" iOS developer.

~~~
yellowapple
With $299.95 per hour in rent.

------
Iv
Either as a society we accept that some people will trade sexual favors for
money or we refuse it. I can see arguments both ways. In the end, that is a
stance on how you weight two values:

1\. The morality to add financial consideration in the decision to provide
consent to a sex act.

2\. The amount of freewill that a person has within the job market.

What is interesting is that you can have different liberal or conservative
position on both of these considerations and still be unsure about the side
the scale weights in:

As a conservative:

1\. Social conservatives tend to consider sex like a serious matter, set apart
from the rest, so they will say that consent is not to be sold.

2\. Fiscal conservatives tend to consider freewill in the job market is close
to absolute: you are always free to refuse a job, so people deciding to go
into prostitution really chose it without constraints.

Depending on how you weight sex-is-special vs job-market-is-free, you can be
against or for prostitution as a conservative.

As a liberal:

1\. Social liberals will tend to consider that consent is important in every
part of life but that sex is (or can be chosen to be) an activity like any
other. If someone is really willing to sell sexual favors, under what
principle forbidding it? (and it turns to be a fetish too)

2\. "Fiscal liberals" (is that an expression? Not sure, non-native here, I
mean the opposite of "fiscal conservative) tend to consider wages and
employment to be a tool of oppression and control. In that respect, they will
be less likely to consider that someone who works for money chooses to do so
freely.

Depending on how you weight you-are-free-to-sex-as-you-want vs wage-is-a-way-
to-control you can be a liberal and be for or against prostitution.

~~~
didibus
Your "fiscal liberal" doesn't make that much sense. I suspect their claim
would be towards regulating the business, making sure the workers have rights,
can negotiate better conditions and ultimately resign if they wanted. Probably
education would be pushed to be cheaper or free, programs to transition people
out of it put in place, etc.

~~~
Iv
Maybe that's a French bias, but here we tend to consider that poor people
usually have less job opportunities to choose between and that some
prostitutes do this because they are out of option to make additional money.

"Have sex or starve" can be seen as a breach of consent.

Most prostitutes do not work out of a vocation or because they enjoy having
sex with random people (though I guess on can find a few who do) but they do
that for money. Some will think "that's so much easier and enjoyable than
flipping burgers at the fastfood" and that's fine by me, but some others will
think "that's the only way I can make enough money to feed my kids and pay our
debts" and that's less ok.

~~~
ptero
> "Have sex or starve" can be seen as a breach of consent.

Most people in the developed world feel that "do X or starve" is not the right
model and want their government to take care of that. This, however, is done
via public assistance, not by tweaking rules for X1, X2, ..., Xn, ... ("have
sex or starve" is wrong, but "clean toilets or starve" is OK, etc.).

~~~
vertex-four
"Clean toilets or starve" is, in fact, the model that one of the main sources
of aid for the unemployed is built on. If you turn down a job without a damn
good reason, you lose your unemployment aid. Very few people with any
political power want to change that.

------
geff82
As a German where prostitution is just seen as a regular trade, some general
points. 1.) While paid sex is surely available at many places, we still do not
live in one big brothel.

2.) Why should people have to film their act of having sex and then publish it
(porn is legal in the US...)

3.) There is a problem with human trafficking that has to be dealt with. But
dealing with this problem in some manner is surely the better way than making
prostitution illegal. As long as there are hormons in this world, prostitution
will exist. Learn to live with it.

~~~
fredley
The USA moralises issues more than any other Western democracy as far as I can
tell. To a large portion of the electorate, it's not a question of what's
[better for women, better for the planet, better for x], it's a question of
what's _right_ and what's _wrong_. Prostitution is obviously wrong, therefore
nobody _good_ should be doing it, therefore criminalising it only affects
_bad_ people, which is fine, they're bad and they deserve punishment (maybe
they'll see the error of their ways and become good people).

Or that's how it seems from over here anyway. The UK's better, but not much.

~~~
stared
The eternal battle of deontology vs utilitarianism.

For example, just a few months the Polish government made emergency
contraception pill prescription-only. This government is strongly against
abortion of any kind, yet it passed a bill that will surely increase (illegal)
abortion rates. Yet, it does not THINK about consequences of action, just if
it supports "right" or "wrong" causes (for them any non-Catholic sex life is
"wrong").

~~~
thaumasiotes
> This government is strongly against abortion of any kind, yet it passed a
> bill that will surely increase (illegal) abortion rates.

This isn't a very good argument. If you care about "abortion of any kind",
then increasing the illegal abortion rate while decreasing the overall
abortion rate is a perfectly sensible thing to do.

~~~
stared
Unlike most EU countries, in Poland there is no legal abortion (except for
rape and women's life in danger).

I added "(illegal)" as an indication that all of such abortions are illegal in
Poland.

------
tryingagainbro
I never understood this: it's your body so you have the right to an abortion,
but...

Someone does it for free, someone for a promise to marry, someone for
marriage, someone hoping it leads to something, rent paid etc etc. Who are to
decide what "currency" is legal and what isn't for "her body"?

~~~
dspillett
> I never understood this: it's your body so you have the right to an
> abortion, but...

There may be less to understand than you think: there is a _huge_ overlap
between groups of people who are very anti-abortion and groups who are very
anti-prostitution. The religious right to give the most obvious example (as
they are loudly vocal, highly active, and in many places countries pretty
controlling via lobbying), but that is definitely not the only example.

There are reasons to support one but not the other though they are contested.
Many see prostitution as something that will lead to people trafficking and
other crime. The opposing views, that legalising it will reduce such crime by
bringing the activity more into the open so availability is not an issue for
those who wish to take part (reducing the trafficking to bring in resource)
and so those who chose to take part are better protected, don't generally win
out in relevant debates.

Studies of real world examples show wildly differing results (in part because
most of them are run and/or funded by those with some bias towards one result
or another) and experimental studies have problems getting through ethics
committees for obvious reasons - so it is going to be a complex issue to
resolve (and is unlikely to ever be resolved to the satisfaction of all).

> someone for a promise to marry, someone for marriage, someone hoping it
> leads to something, rent paid etc etc. Who are to decide what "currency"

Again, in many cases you'll find the judgement applied to selling sex is
similarly applied to this form of currency, or if not other moral judgement is
often found.

~~~
tryingagainbro
The "NO" side, IMO, is mostly for religious /morality reasons or the ultra-
feminists that think women will be abused by men. The first part I understand,
it's at least consistent. But I don't see how a bunch of women in DC or ivory
towers can claim that a 16 yo girl can decide /has the right to abort but 40
yo woman can't decide to have sex for $150 a shot.

~~~
dspillett
The latter are merely a very vocal minority though. Very _very_ vocal, but in
the grand scheme of things in what is a massive debate that has been going on
for centuries in various forms with strongly defended positions on all sides,
a drop in the ocean.

------
kolbe
I've always thought about how brutally sexist it is to take this industry
where women have a massive competitive advantage, and criminalize it.

~~~
the_stc
Yes it is long due for a major overhaul. Fortunately with new tech it is
finally possible to do something about it. Imagine a large scale union of sex
workers with strong protection. They will be able to demand safer working
conditions and join together to leverage power over abusive clients. They can
coordinate and accurately judge demand. The company can then do marketing and
logistics on their behalf. It would also enable women that are not as
entrepreneurial but do not want to give up all their personal control to a
local representative.

------
RealityNow
Summary of results from prostitution decriminalization experiment:

* Female gonorrhea rates decreased 40% * Reported rape offenses decreased 30% * No evidence that decriminalization increases human trafficking

> She has a theory, though, in that while she knows for some men rape is about
> power, "I think the argument that we're making is that that might not be
> true for all men, and for some, these activities could be substitutes."

> In other words, for some men, rape may be just about sex. And if there's a
> legal and accessible market for it, the number of rapes in a community may
> go down. This has not been a popular theory or study. And for many, it
> challenges the notion that rape is about violence and power, and not sex.
> "So I consider myself a feminist, but I think this finding angers a lot of
> feminists," Shah said. "It is a very controversial idea."

What the hell is this "rape has nothing to do with sex" nonsense and why does
challenging this absurd assertion anger feminists? How removed from reality do
you have to be to believe that forcing sexual intercourse on someone has
nothing to do with sexual attraction?

But back to the topic of criminalization, it's downright disingenuous to
conflate prostitution with human trafficking. And I don't believe the
government should be in the business of imposing its moral whims on the
decisions of consenting adults.

~~~
hashberry
> What the hell is this "rape has nothing to do with sex" nonsense

This is because feminists (and everyone else) started rejecting Freud's
theories of sex in the '60s. Freudian theory states sex and aggression are
interconnected (e.g. the much misunderstood Oedipus complex). Even now people
think violence is due to our culture, not biological drives or instincts. This
is why feminists say we have a "Rape Culture," and that all we have to do is
fix culture, then all rape and violence will disappear. Freud was much more
pessimistic. "Civilization and Its Discontents" is a good summary of why.

------
cestith
Banning anything that has a high demand mainly gives criminals control of the
market. It has little impact on demand but is an abrogation of any
responsibility to regulate.

The same was true of the US 18th Amendment, of the "War on Drugs" in the US
now, of the banning of sex work, or most anything else. When the government
decides to just ban something, others step in to control the market without
any rule of law or responsibility to the public.

------
jessaustin
TFA: _Still, perhaps even more surprising than the decrease in gonorrhea was
another public health development. Sexual violence, or rapes, dipped
dramatically. And this wasn 't just amongst sex workers. It was across the
board, according to FBI crime reports and jurisdiction level data.

"Reported rape offenses decreased by about 30 percent," Shah said.

That's another big decrease. Shah says, if anything, you'd expect rape to go
up as when prostitution is decriminalized, sex workers are more likely to
report rapes. She compared this to neighboring states, too. The drop was only
in Rhode Island. So she examined other crime data in Rhode Island, like
burglaries and murders, to see if there had just been a drop in crime
generally.

It didn't match._

------
jaemison
I love how in the past hour, a NYT op-ed discussing motherhood and women's
agency is flagged as irrelevant but an article on decriminalizing prostitution
is at the top of hacker news with a lengthy discussion on the nuances of
policy and practice /s

~~~
cokernel
Is that
[https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/04/opinion/sunday/motherhood...](https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/04/opinion/sunday/motherhood-
family-sexism-sacrifice.html) by any chance?

~~~
jaemison
That's the one! Comments:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14944904](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14944904)

~~~
UnoriginalGuy
I have little sympathy. The author decided to pick an "edgy" title to get
clicks and it clearly backfired.

If you posted "Motherhood Isn’t Sacrifice, It’s Selfishness" as a comment here
it would get flagged to death too. Putting it as a title of an OP-Ed doesn't
change that even if the author will slowly break down why that ISN'T true (or
more complex/nuanced).

If the author wants to generate legitimate discussion, they should talk to
their editor about dropping the faux-controversial titles. Particularly as it
sets the tone for the discussion is such a negative way.

~~~
maxerickson
The headlines in newspapers aren't written by the people that write the
columns and articles.

~~~
soundwave106
From what I can tell, the title unfortunately reflects the article well. Sure,
the article does skirt around some interesting thoughts on ingrained societal
bias / roles (which _has_ been discussed here quite a bit). But the article
struck me as preachy / opinionated, in that the author had a fairly exact idea
of what she thought the motherhood of everyone else was.

------
jacknews
I neither endorse nor reject this paper, but it is an interesting argument:
[http://assets.csom.umn.edu/assets/71503.pdf](http://assets.csom.umn.edu/assets/71503.pdf)

------
the_mitsuhiko
As someone from a country where all form of prostitution is legal and
regulated it did not really ever come up as something odd when I grew up.
Prostitution is becoming less prominent in recent years because families move
into places traditionally frequented by prostitutes but the industry is
healthy as ever as far as I can see.

------
k__
It's legal in Germany too.

My girlfriend grew up in a red light district.

She said it was mostly okay, the nights were a bit rough, because the clients
would often argue loudly with the girls right before her window.

But the "madame" of a brothel around the corner would always look after the
children going to school in the morning so they wouldn't be bothered.

------
spodek
Does anyone else see the article presenting for a mutually agreed on act as
women innocent / men predatory?

For example

> _The Swedish or Nordic model takes aim at the demand, making it illegal to
> buy sexual services but not to sell it._

but

> _In a class action lawsuit in the U.S. District of Rhode Island, COYOTE 's
> lawyer argued that the state's law on prostitution was too broad and
> discriminated against women, given that female sex workers were arrested far
> more than male customers._

Saying "takes aim at the demand" for a mutually consenting interaction just
seems a way of targeting men without explicitly saying it. Different countries
and situations, but the reporter doesn't note the different treatment by the
state when one sex is criminalized versus the other.

Or

> _" You see the silencing of victims," Hughes said. "It is just very harmful
> to women. It really is a libertarian approach, but the ones who get freedom
> are the pimps, the sex buyers, the businessmen who then can rent properties
> to the massage parlors, and to the sex buyers. There's very little freedom
> for the women."_

or

> _As for Robinson, the online escort who moved to Rhode Island? She was
> angry._

> _" It pissed me off. I didn't know nothing about activism, I didn't know
> what a sex worker rights organization was," she said._

> _Robinson changed that. She became active with COYOTE, the sex worker union
> and advocacy group._

> _" Criminalization is a punishment for women who won't conform," Robinson
> said. "And we're just supposed to go live in the streets in poverty and not
> complain about it, and be good women."_

Nothing wrong with a woman's perspective, but men's behavior was criminalized
too. I would think it would add to the article to get some of their
perspective.

Not including men's perspective, except as the business _men_ who make money
off the women and the rapists, makes the article sound like the reason for
prostitution's negative reputation is men. Would a quote like the following
fly?

> _" Criminalization is a punishment for men who won't conform. We're just
> supposed to go live without sex and not complain about it, and be good
> men."_

------
plainOldText
Speaking of various models of legislating sex, I found this TED talk quite
informative:
[https://www.ted.com/talks/juno_mac_the_laws_that_sex_workers...](https://www.ted.com/talks/juno_mac_the_laws_that_sex_workers_really_want)

------
randyrand
off topic: This is why states rights is so important. Each state acts as an
incubator for ideas. Its 50 experiments running all at once.

~~~
SwellJoe
When nearly all of the states have pretty extreme anti-sex worker views, the
experiments don't happen. It's, honestly, embarrassing how long it's taking
for the US to get sane policy regarding sex work. The US is perhaps too
homogeneous to provide good experimental data.

But, it's great when experiments do happen. And, I guess we're reaching a
tipping point on drug policy, at least with regard to the most popular (still
mostly) illegal drug.

~~~
yellowapple
Keyword there is "nearly", though. Greetings from Nevada, land of the free and
home of the Mustang Ranch.

~~~
SwellJoe
Isn't it legal in only a handful of counties in Nevada, though? So, wouldn't
that mean it's not really an entire state full of freedom, just a few
enlightened counties. Also, as I understand it, the only legal prostitution is
within licensed brothels. So, no independent contractors allowed anywhere in
the state. That seems more like rent-seeking by brothel owners rather than
rights for sex workers.

I'm not saying it's not a positive thing that prostitution is less
criminalized in some parts of Nevada than in the rest of the US. But, it's
still pretty repressive and it still victimizes sex workers in the general
case by putting their livelihood at the mercy of brothel owners.

~~~
yellowapple
"Isn't it legal in only a handful of counties in Nevada, though?"

Indeed; it's notably illegal in both of Reno's two largest cities (Las Vegas
because Clark County has too high of a population, so prostitution is
automatically illegal per state law; Reno/Sparks because Washoe County
specifically outlawed prostitution), which really hinders the effectiveness of
such an experiment. About 90% of Nevadan prostitution happens illegally, from
what I understand.

Still, that's better than 100% illegal statewide, which is the case in pretty
much every state bordering Nevada IIRC.

"no independent contractors allowed anywhere in the state"

I'm pretty sure most (all?) prostitutes in Nevadan brothels are independent
contractors. They still report to brothel owners, though.

"it's still pretty repressive"

Indeed it is.

------
forkLding
I wonder if government-operated brothels could be a better solution, this way
there is a constant monitor on sex workers and human trafficking while
providing extra income to the government and being able to protect the sex
worker/citizens its meant to protect.

Not sure what would be the obvious cons. Happy to know if anyone points any
out.

~~~
patrickaljord
Public workers tend to get away with anything, like politicians or cops get
away with murders, theft or even rape. Putting these unaccountable people in
charge of brothels sounds like a nightmare.

~~~
PhantomGremlin
There's a reason that Patty and Selma work for the Department of Motor
Vehicles. They "suck the life out of everything".

If they worked in a brothel it would be even less fun than visiting the DMV.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patty_and_Selma](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patty_and_Selma)

Yes it's a cartoon and a stereotype. But the reason it's funny is that it's so
close to peoples' everyday experience with government employees.

------
ilaksh
Do you guys think that the majority of sex workers really enjoy their work or
prefer it? Do you think that this is the career they prefer? Do you think it
may have some affect on their psychological well-being?

I believe prostitution is an indication of a lack economic and social well-
being both in the case of buyers and sellers.

Within about one or two decades maximum there will be revolutionary advances
in robotics including things like much better weight-to power ratio artificial
muscles and increased bio-mimicry. This will lead to truly life-like sex
robots. Along the same lines, the majority of "ordinary" jobs that humans can
currently do without high-bandwidth connections to computers or control over
them will be replaced with sophisticated AIs and robots or automation. The
perspective on sex work and general objectification of women will shift more
towards one side then.

~~~
techer
Working in a poisoned corporate environment has some effect on psychological
well being.

~~~
beagle3
It is easy to reason about these things on an armchair, much like it is to
reason about war.

And much like soldiers who have actually been in the battlefield, many
prositutes suffer from PTSD. I suspect the percentage of corporate drones
suffering from debilitating PTSD is much lower than among soldiers and
prostitutes.

~~~
Eridrus
The article mentions a decrease in both STD rates and sexual violence with
legal prostitution. So it's not crazy to think that there may be a reduction
in PTSD as well. And making their trade legal makes it easier to provide
(mental health) services.

~~~
beagle3
For sure. I was just trying to explain why the "corporate effect on mental
well being" is not comparable to the effect that sex work has on sex workers
(which is closer to PTSD in the military).

The only way I can understand the downvotes to my comment is the missing /s on
the first line; I somehow completely failed to communicate that, it seems.

------
Corrado
I just can't understand how people think that you can regulate sex between
consenting adults. Did we not learn anything from prohibition? Trying to make
something that almost everyone wants illegal is just not possible. Hell, we
can't even enforce a speed limit on the highways.

------
stretchwithme
I think the best way to handle prostitution and recreational drugs is to let
each neighborhood decide what is allowed. If the majority of residents and
majority of property owners are okay with a particular activity, it should be
legal there.

There are always going to be problems allowing these activities and problems
with banning them. If you let each neighborhood decide, at least you're moving
the problem to areas that are ready and willing to deal with the problems.
They can tax it, regulate it, provide security, drug treatment etc. That means
the neighborhood has to form some kind of legal entity, of course.

And you're giving the customers reasons to go where they are welcome. By doing
it on a neighborhood level, it becomes much easier to comply. It's easier to
drive 15 blocks than to go to the next county.

And I think enforcement where it is banned can just be done with fines, giving
people a good reason to take their business to where it is welcome. There's no
reason to put people in prison.

~~~
msla
That's an amazingly dumb idea.

------
MachineMan
A fitting phenomenon for the "Red Island" :)

------
vitro
I highly recommend the document Whores' Glory by Michael Glawogger which gives
you a different look on what prostitution can also be like.

------
lngnmn
Look no farther than some South Asian societies. Countries with no madness
around prostitution are better off socially.

It is not an accident that Thailand is a Buddhist country - people are
tolerant to whatever is not harming others living beings.

Too much pressure on sexual issues is a sign of primitive authoritarian
societies (who are cooksure that they know better what is right and what is
wrong than biology and evolution).

~~~
lr4444lr
_It is not an accident that Thailand is a Buddhist country - people are
tolerant to whatever is not harming others living beings_

Oh really?

[http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/asiapcf/southeast/05/07/thaila...](http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/asiapcf/southeast/05/07/thailand.drugs/)

So tolerant!

~~~
jessaustin
Haha you wouldn't have to go back 14 years for most nations...

~~~
lr4444lr
Perhaps not even for Thailand; I just happen to know of this particular
episode. But regardless, Buddhism's influence there certainly didn't start 14
years ago!

------
muse900
prostitution is probably the oldest profession.

------
wcummings
Rhode Islander checking in. I'll share a story I heard from someone downcity
many years ago, before this law was reversed in '09.

Buddy's (7-time wiseguy mayor of Providence, and 2-time convicted felon) usual
driver was unavailable, and a detective was assigned to escort him. The mayor
gives his new driver an address. The detective recognizes it, bit can't quite
place it, and gets on his way.

When he gets there, it hits him. "Buddy, this is the address of a known
brothel".

Buddy quips back "you must be a detective" and disappears into the building.

~~~
qq66
Did you listen to the podcast "Crimetown?"

~~~
wcummings
No, but everyone keeps telling me about it, it's on my TODO list.

------
nvahalik
Honest question... for those of you on board with this: how do you reconcile
the complaints about the objectification of women as sex objects (and how that
harms women) with this?

~~~
root_axis
The objectification of women will be present either way, the only difference
is that in one scenario, we criminalize a woman's sexual agency and in the
other we don't. We know that decriminalization creates better outcomes in
terms of safety and public health, so at the end of the day I feel like the
hand wringing over objectification is not helpful.

------
bitwize
Legalizing prostitution increases human trafficking:

[http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0305750X12...](http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0305750X12001453)

The correct approach is to decriminalize providing, and crack down hard on
buyers.

~~~
timwaagh
this always strikes me as a mistaken case of white-knightism. it does not help
these girls who would have to lower the price to adapt to adjust to lowered
demand. you need customers to run a business.

~~~
bitwize
The idea is to get demand to dry up, so prostitutes will be incentivized to
find other lines of work. Ending prostitution, and the exploitation it brings,
is the goal. Criminalizing johns but not prostitutes will make prostitutes
fear the authorities less and come forward if they have been victimized.

