
'We all suffer': why San Francisco techies hate the city they transformed - _0o6v
https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2019/jul/01/san-francisco-big-tech-workers-industry
======
brokenkebab
It's hilarious to read all these militaristic wordings about techies waging
"battles", and "conquering" the city, as if it's about barbarian hordes which
came down on peaceful SF, pillaged, raped, and burnt everything to the ground.
Sure, why scritinize California's, or the city's political theater, why
questioning law enforcement inefficiency. Can it be somehow related to drugs,
prostitution, and theft? No, it's all software developers' fault.

~~~
atoav
Technology has a transformative effect on society and the way we live. This is
why old cities look like they look (built before cars and trains were a thing)
and this is why most US cites look like they look (built during the prime of
the car age).

Similar things are certainly true for other technology, even for the
(tolerated) side products of said technology. Is any single person at fault
here? Probably not. They mostly acted rationally within their small horizon,
but together they created a problem, even for themselves.

We have similar problems when it comes to markets and global warming. Many
individually rational decisions can lead to negative outcomes for the whole.

There is a very good episode on the Omega Tau Podcast on precisely that
problem: [https://pca.st/t8Yd](https://pca.st/t8Yd)

The interviewed Scientist Dr. Igor Nikolic focused on the design of a co-
evolutionary method for constructing Agent Based Models of the evolution of
Large Scale Socio-Technical systems in the TU Delft in the Netherlands and
tries to tackle problems like these, where you'd be lost without a more
systemic view of the problem.

~~~
brokenkebab
I appreciate your effort in trying to explain your opinion, but it's unclear
how it is related to my comment above. To clarify: it's sarcastic reaction to
the story's bias, and shallowness.

~~~
atoav
It seems I didn't get your sarcastic tone then, sorry for the inconvenience.

------
chvid
I find it amazing that "locals" can get away with blaming "tech workers" for
rising rents and homelessness. The rents and the house prices only rise
because the wealth that the workers generate is blocked from being used to
build new houses.

~~~
mcv
But why? Why isn't all that wealth being used to make the city more livable?
More affordable for the poor? More diverse?

~~~
CalRobert
Because making it more affordable to the poor means increasing the housing
supply, which means reducing the price of homes, which existing homeowners
hate.

~~~
mcv
But it's the people who live there who are complaining. Besides I doubt that
stepping over homeless people is good for the price of homes.

Increasing the housing supply, if there's room for that, seems like a no-
brainer.

------
cribbles
>A million-plus for a home with $300,000 down? Then when we have kids, $30,000
a year for private school?

This quote totally confounded me. Why is it a given that their kids have to go
to private school? If you're optimizing your budget for home-ownership, why
not just send your kids to the schools your taxes are paying for?

~~~
mschuster91
> why not just send your kids to the schools your taxes are paying for?

Because thanks to massive underfunding US public education is ... not exactly
what one can expect from a first world country. In some areas children
actually only have four days of school because of underfunding
([http://www.ladbible.com/news/news-school-switches-to-four-
da...](http://www.ladbible.com/news/news-school-switches-to-four-day-week-and-
teachers-and-students-love-it-20190529)).

~~~
majewsky
> US public education is ... not exactly what one can expect from a first
> world country.

As a European, I slowly wonder if there's any public service in the US that
meets the "first-world country" standard. Not education. Certainly not
healthcare. Infrastructure is also crumbling from what I hear.

~~~
jtbayly
If you just read people complaining on HN, then yeah, I’m sure you’d get that
impression.

The only OECD country to spend more per student than the US is Norway.

[https://nces.ed.gov/programs/coe/indicator_cmd.asp](https://nces.ed.gov/programs/coe/indicator_cmd.asp)

San Francisco is not on the high end in the US, but it is suffering largely
because of increasing pension and salary requirements. I assume the latter
(and likely both) is itself caused by the extreme cost of living in the area.

[https://www.sfexaminer.com/news/sfusd-expects-budget-cuts-
de...](https://www.sfexaminer.com/news/sfusd-expects-budget-cuts-despite-
funding-boost-in-coming-school-year/)

~~~
BoiledCabbage
You're somewhat arguing his point for him. We spend significantly more per
student than almost anywhere, and our education is comparatively poor. We
spend significantly more per patient, and our healthcare is comparatively
poor.

How much we spend isn't a metric of it being good. It's demonstration of
failure.

~~~
jtbayly
Yeah, but the parent comment attributes the problem to “massive underfunding,”
and that claim was not questioned, but seemed to be accepted.

My point was simply to say that throwing more money at the problem is a poor
solution. Pardon the pun.

------
peterwwillis
When I first visited 7 years ago, it was already an insufferable combination
of homeless detritus and Java talk at dive bars. I was finally able to find
the alternative scenes the city was [previously] famous for, but all around
was an encroaching sense of 'other' smothering the unique identity of the
city. And the rent was already too damn high. Soon after, Oakland was being
inundated by its escapees. I felt badly for the locals, but more than anything
I wanted never to live there. I would work as a high school network admin in
Ohio before I would join the tech gold rush.

I've been mostly happy on the east coast, but gentrification's steady gears
are erasing local culture here too. I'm pretty sick of cities now - the noise,
crime, filth, expense, lack of green space and clean air. But terrible public
transportation outside of cities requires paying the ecological, monetary, and
in-convenience costs of cars. Suburbia has its own negative effect on society,
by drawing away tax revenue from cities and abandoning small businesses.
'Escaping' would come with its own costs, and only help myself.

I don't see a clear solution, but it has to start with a focus on improving
society as a whole. More and better public transportation, housing, food, and
education will greatly help things, but it needs to be integrated everywhere;
not doled out like alms, or in whatever the highest taxed county is. We need a
balance between the selfish act of consumption and the hard work of improving
society for _other people_ , which will actually benefit us more in the long
run.

------
kieckerjan
European here. My girlfriend and I are excited to do a tour of the West Coast
later this year. As a tech I feel it would be silly to skip San Francisco and
Silicon Valley, but I must say the stories I have been hearing have dampened
my initial enthusiasm considerably. I now wonder if it is worth our while. If
"avocado toast and class warfare" are the main attractions nowadays, we can
probably spend our time more wisely.

~~~
thinkingemote
There's not much to see in SV apart from the computer history museum, unless
you like seeing parking lots and industrial buildings.

~~~
lm28469
On the other hand there are many nice places around the valley. I think that's
the only thing I miss from the valley, drive 40 min in any direction and
you're either in a forest, a desert, on top of a mountain or at a sea side. I
live in berlin now and it's quite the opposite, the city if full of life but
the nature sucks for a good 200km radius.

Mountain roads with nice view on top:

[https://www.google.com/maps/dir/37.5880399,-121.8692997/37.4...](https://www.google.com/maps/dir/37.5880399,-121.8692997/37.4038633,-121.8379315/@37.4808906,-121.8296154,12.04z/data=!4m2!4m1!3e0)

Nice road in the woods:

[https://www.google.com/maps/dir/37.5880399,-121.8692997/37.4...](https://www.google.com/maps/dir/37.5880399,-121.8692997/37.4038633,-121.8379315/@37.4808906,-121.8296154,12.04z/data=!4m2!4m1!3e0)

Small twisty road to santa cruz:

[https://www.google.com/maps/dir/37.5880399,-121.8692997/37.4...](https://www.google.com/maps/dir/37.5880399,-121.8692997/37.4038633,-121.8379315/@37.4808906,-121.8296154,12.04z/data=!4m2!4m1!3e0)

I also remember remote hiking trails going up the hills south of mountain view
but I can't place them on the map. They were always empty, best place to chill
and get out of the stressful environment.

~~~
xaedes
To be fair, 200km - which is quite a distance for a small country like Germany
- around Berlin includes a LOT of nice nature areas, e.g.: Baltic Sea,
Mecklenburg Lake Plateau, Saxon Switzerland, Harz, and many more.

~~~
lm28469
Mecklenburg Lake Plateau is the only one under 200km though, anyway, it take
some preparation to do that kind of trip.

Baltic Sea = 200km to the first coast

Saxon Switzerland = 250km

Harz = 275km

~~~
xaedes
I measure geographical distance using google maps starting from Berlin
(52.515277, 13.405301):

The german part of Saxon Switzerland is at most 200km. Distance through
Dresden up to German-Czech border is 200km.

German coast of Baltic Sea is 200km, yes.

Brocken, highest "mountain" in Harz, and more or less its center, is 206km
away.

Another nice area for canoeing or hiking is Jena/Naumburg(Saale) 200km south-
west-ish.

Your distances are probably more useful though, when you want to get there, as
I suspect them to be travel distances.

~~~
lm28469
Ah yes indeed, I'm talking about traveling distance, I'd love to be able to
fly there in a personal helicopter though.

------
traderjane
Why is it that despite high housing prices everywhere in the tech region,
homelessness appears acutely concentrated in SF?

~~~
henrikschroder
Because solutions that work (Free mental health care, free housing, more
social workers) are not palatable to the people who live there, despite the
city having more than enough money to actually pay for those solutions.

So an endless parade of soup kitchens it is.

~~~
traderjane
It's hard to imagine surrounding cities are different because of free mental
health care, free housing, and more social service support for homelessness.

~~~
henrikschroder
Homelessness is not a problem that affects all cities alike.

It's not the case that Daly City, Mountain View, Pleasanton etc, have all
solved the problem without telling SF how to do it. In reality, the
surrounding cities simply don't have the problem for various reasons and
environmental factors, so they don't need to solve the problem in the first
place.

~~~
A2017U1
My experience in very poor metropolises across the plamet is that it's an
entirely simple problem to solve. My experience in some of the most expensive
cities on Earth is that providing housing for the poor devalues the only
nestegg most people have and is widely railed against by the masses.

Its a Ponzi scheme first and foremost, housing simply cannot outpace wages,
it's impossible. When it all comes crashing down is someone elses problem
though hey :)

------
Karishma12347
Even though people think SF as some kind of tech hub, the reality is that
Tech's share of employment and tax revenue in SF is going down year on year.

~~~
noobermin
Is this really true? Evidence for it?

------
bubblewrap
"It should be noted that Zoe, who asked not to be identified by her real name
because she was not authorized by her employer to speak to the press, is not
the stereotypical tech bro who moves to San Francisco for a job and
immediately starts complaining about the city’s dire homelessness crisis. She
arrived in 2007 to study at San Francisco State University and had a career in
musical theater before attending a coding bootcamp and landing a job as a
developer advocate at a major tech company."

Um, how is she not exactly that? Except that she is a girl, so I guess not a
bro. What would you say to girls? "Tech chick"? Or just "Tech sis"?

"It’s just not sustainable for a couple to live here"

Then don't? I write this as somebody who also moved away from his hometown and
now can't afford to go back.

"she says she is terrified to walk at night."

And how exactly did Tech workers cause that?

Is there even data showing the homeless and drug addicts are former residents
of SF, who were then displaced by rising housing costs because of tech
workers?

I don't know why SF with all its money can't get a grip on the problem. But it
also seems likely to me that many homeless were simply attracted by the rich
people, who can donate more than people elsewhere?

------
RandomInteger4
What's the overlap between techies and San Fran's politicians and politically
active individuals who prevent the necessary steps from being taken regarding
housing policies?

EDIT for clarity: What percentage of those responsible for the horrible laws
there were actually techies?

------
dnrvs
lmao the defensiveness in this thread. boiling frogs

