
There will be blood - Photo Analysis - h43z
http://www.hackerfactor.com/blog/index.php?/archives/580-There-Will-Be-Blood.html
======
photoJ
Aside from speculation, the first question one might ask is simply, are there
additional photos?

In fact there are: [http://www.timesunion.com/news/article/Syrian-warplanes-
bomb...](http://www.timesunion.com/news/article/Syrian-warplanes-bomb-rebel-
held-town-20-killed-3791667.php#photo-3334011)

Now the "staging" looks a lot more complicated.

Also note that, the photographer won a Pulitzer(which means he's be vetted
more thoroughly then most), while this reviewer has a history of making
strongly worded claims that are disproved.

If interested look at this post which was soundly rebuked, and proved to be
misleading.

[http://www.hackerfactor.com/blog/index.php?/archives/549-Unb...](http://www.hackerfactor.com/blog/index.php?/archives/549-Unbelievable.html)

Note this response: [http://petapixel.com/2013/05/14/forensics-expert-claims-
worl...](http://petapixel.com/2013/05/14/forensics-expert-claims-world-press-
photo-winner-a-fake-photographer-responds/)

------
csomar
Can we stop the negativity toward the forensic expert here? He's doing his
job. Trying to find out fake pictures. If you disagree, just give a counter
point. Stop the Ad-hominem.

Here are my counter-arguments:

1\. Blood gets very dry: Not necessarily. Blood requires a sufficient level of
platelets to get dry quickly. This can be the case, and it's not a rare
condition. (I have it and my nose bleed frequently).

2\. Blood color: Same argument. Depend on the constituents of the blood; and
whether it's oxygenated or not.

3\. Look at her right eye-brow. It looks like she was hit there and blood was
bleeding from that place all over her right face. It can be the source of
fresh, red blood.

~~~
wozniacki
Without casting any aspersions on the veracity of the photo, being talked
about, it has to be said that there was plenty of amateur footage making the
rounds in the early stages of the conflict, right about the time the UK
parliament put the commitment of British forces in a potential military
involvement, to vote.

The integrity of photos and video evidence (filmed mostly by amateurs in the
early stages of the military strikes by Syrian security forces) was disputed.

[http://brown-moses.blogspot.co.uk/2013/09/videos-claim-to-
sh...](http://brown-moses.blogspot.co.uk/2013/09/videos-claim-to-show-jabhat-
al-nusra.html)

 _BBC News uses 'Iraq photo to illustrate Syrian massacre'_

 _The BBC is facing criticism after it accidentally used a picture taken in
Iraq in 2003 to illustrate the senseless massacre of children in Syria._

[http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/tvandradio/bbc/9293620/BB...](http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/tvandradio/bbc/9293620/BBC-
News-uses-Iraq-photo-to-illustrate-Syrian-massacre.html)

 _Photos of Syria Chemical Attack Appear to Have Been STAGED_

[http://www.westernfreepress.com/2013/09/13/analysis-
photos-o...](http://www.westernfreepress.com/2013/09/13/analysis-photos-of-
syria-chemical-attack-appear-to-have-been-staged/)

~~~
csomar
You are still missing the point. It's not a discussion about media legitimacy,
it's a discussion if a photo is fake or not.

------
someone13
Regardless of all the criticism of the analysis, or whether the analysis is
"worth it": this post is a really interesting look into how someone that does
photographic forensics professionally operates. I thought it was pretty nifty
:)

~~~
photoJ
Might be slow to trust this as professional forensic analysis.

Previous claims, which were more extensive, were refuted by independent review
of professionals.

From the following article on other case: "The results of the expert analysis
are in, and it looks like Hansen’s photo does indeed stand up to serious
forensic scrutiny."

[http://petapixel.com/2013/05/14/forensics-expert-claims-
worl...](http://petapixel.com/2013/05/14/forensics-expert-claims-world-press-
photo-winner-a-fake-photographer-responds/)

~~~
xymostech
Posting the same link and comment five different times in the same thread
isn't all that helpful.

~~~
EdwardDiego
If you only check replies to your comments, it is.

------
auctiontheory
I wasn't there. But I'm unconvinced and a little offended by some of this
"reasoning."

 _As far as I can tell, there is no consistent angle that matches all of the
blood drips._

Why must she have stood (or lain) still while the blood finished dripping?

 _Her eyes show no sign of pain._

Have you ever been bombed, or shot, or in a car accident, or fallen down
stairs? The pain often doesn't kick in immediately. The pop explanation for
that is "adrenalin" \- I don't know the scientific reasoning. But it's a very
real effect.

While I realize you intend your tone to be scientific and dispassionate, it is
a little too reminiscent of those you use "rational analysis" to deny, well,
just about anything.

~~~
kevinpet
Cut the "offended" bit. It's either a fake or it isn't. This is a factual
question. To claim to be offended is to say that you consider certain areas of
thought morally off limits.

~~~
adamnemecek
It's mostly about the fact that the author makes somewhat serious accusations
while his proof is rather underwhelming.

~~~
photoJ
Also he has a history of making strong claims that are disproved by other
experts.

See: [http://petapixel.com/2013/05/14/forensics-expert-claims-
worl...](http://petapixel.com/2013/05/14/forensics-expert-claims-world-press-
photo-winner-a-fake-photographer-responds/)

~~~
adamnemecek
Wow. He seems like an all-around shithead especially considering the fact that
he's been proven wrong before yet that does not prevent him prevent him from
doing the same thing again.

------
giorgosts
100000 people killed, 2200000 refugees (1000000 of them children) and we are
talking about a photo instead of taking action to end the war NOW.

~~~
yeukhon
And excuse me fake photo can push a war too. Look at the whole Iraq war. Any
hard evidences have been disproved after the war. If you think a photo can't
kill more people, think about cyberbullying. A single comment can trigger a
death. Fake media has a larger effect. And you know the word "propaganda".

------
underwater
So his whole argument boils down to him thinking it looks fake? It seems
irresponsible to publish accusations like this without any hard evidence and
without considering the consequences of being wrong.

Studies have shown that people are likely to remember accusations of wrong
doing and forget retractions or corrections. His insinuation that either the
subject or photographer is "faking it" is damaging their credibility just so
this guy can get his kicks playing PhotoShop detective.

~~~
jontas
Sounds like you didn't read past the first couple of paragraphs.. while he
isn't offering any conclusive proof, his argument consists a lot more than "I
think it looks fake".

~~~
underwater
That's my point. He hasn't offered any conclusive proof yet the existence of
the article is structured in a way that suggests there is something untoward
to be discovered. Are we to assume that he wrote the article with the hope
we'd read it and come away without any bias whatsoever?

The inclusion of the filters, despite them showing no significant
manipulation, sets up the narrative that we are on our way to discovering how
the pictures were faked.

If this were someone's Instagram pictures of their lunch that would be fine
but we're talking about a respected photographer documenting a major news
event. If there is something fake about the pictures then, yes, that needs to
be uncovered. But not by amateur internet sleuths Googling pictures of blood
to compare splatter patterns.

~~~
Zancarius
> we're talking about a respected photographer documenting a major news event.

Respected photographers have been duped before, and the post addresses this. I
think jontas' assertion may be accurate.

> But not by amateur internet sleuths Googling pictures of blood to compare
> splatter patterns.

I'm sure there are valid criticisms of his analysis, but I'm not quite sure
calling Dr. Krawetz an "amateur internet sleuth" is fair if his biographical
posting is in fact true [1]. On the other hand, if his qualifications are
exaggerated, then his findings are assuredly suspect.

[1]
[http://www.hackerfactor.com/about.php](http://www.hackerfactor.com/about.php)

~~~
underwater
My comment about sleuths was directed at other commenters in this thread.

I don't know much about Neal Krawetz, but his bio seems awfully inflated. Two
of the books he's authored are about Ubuntu customization. It appears as
though he's a relentless self-promoter. That kind of fits with the original
article; he levels some vauge accusations while asserting that he's an expert
all in the name of promoting his personal brand.

~~~
Zancarius
> It appears as though he's a relentless self-promoter.

That's true. The (linked) article is almost as much about analyzing an image
on a hunch as it is about his giving talks and to whom those talks have been
delivered.

On the other hand, there is a lesson in this: It's important to be critical of
all media we consume.

------
jamesaguilar
I know of allegations that Palestinians frequently make stuff up about their
war zone (which does not take away from the real harm that they endure at the
hands of the Israelis, but does make it hard to evaluate the extent of that
harm).
[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=awYMPzSrh5o](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=awYMPzSrh5o)
Maybe that is simply common to all war zones? People want to draw arms and
money to their side of the war, so it makes sense to do whatever you can to
engender empathy in the viewer. It's just another form of propaganda. But
props for doing this breakdown and helping us recognize it for what it is.

~~~
amasad
The term "Pallywood" would also be a form of propaganda, possibly a stronger
one given the high budget production like the video you linked to.

------
Mikeb85
Keep in mind there has already been precedent for faking photos and videos in
the Syria conflict, as well as other conflicts around the world.

It's very much in the interest of militants, and other actors ( _cough_
Saudis) to topple the Assad regime, and of course the only way to do that is
to get the West involved...

In Iraq you have Sunni-Shia conflict, and that's pretty much what's going on
in Syria right now too (with the same actors funding the conflict behind the
scenes...).

------
eli
What would the motive be to fake an injury when we all appear to agree there
really were injured people there? True or not, this reasoning based on things
that cannot be objectively tested smacks of conspiracy theory.

------
wfunction
Is it really just me who thinks it's obvious as day that this is red paint?

The blood is way too red. And it starts on her forehead... where? Nowhere.

~~~
pcurve
Blood can be very red. But from what I see, blood from facial cuts should be
more watery in consistency.

[http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2008/11/09/article-0-026890B8...](http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2008/11/09/article-0-026890B8000005DC-888_468x392.jpg)

[http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_zOUSe8DKLjk/S0ebhT-
SvXI/AAAAAAAAAA...](http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_zOUSe8DKLjk/S0ebhT-
SvXI/AAAAAAAAAAw/PUIeXHmTdu0/s1600-h/pacquiao.jpg)

[http://english.ahram.org.eg/Media/News/2011/2/3/2011-6343233...](http://english.ahram.org.eg/Media/News/2011/2/3/2011-634323337911015008-101.jpg)

~~~
Sunlis
You have to take into account sweat as well. A boxer's face is probably going
to be sweaty as they exert themselves quite a bit during a fight. As a result,
the blood is going to get watered down.

I tried to find pictures to verify my idea, but every head injury picture I
found was of an athlete.

------
ImprovedSilence
I enjoyed the analysis, and lots of good points were made, and now has me
believing it was faked. But I'll be honest, when I clicked the link, I was
kinda hoping for some sort of image processing/hyperspectral article.

------
_nato_
``Believing Is Seeing'' by Errol Morris is a great read for those who are torn
here... A great read.

~~~
_nato_
photo six: is she wearing braces? If so... is that common over there? I spent
the better part of my 2011 paycheck to get Invisalign in my mouth and find
that a little odd if that's the case. Maybe Morris' book has officially
corrupted me!

~~~
ComputerGuru
Getting medical/dental work done in a "3rd world country" is ironically so
much cheaper and more accessible than it is here in the USA. The quality isn't
as great, but you can't have everything in life.

------
spikels
While the author seems to know something about photo analysis (he believes the
photo was not tampered with) he know jack shit about blood or wound analysis.
And neither do the "professional photographers and artists" he knows.

I find it rather disturbing that someone would suggest that it was staged
based on such flimsy evidence. And the subtitle "Just A Flesh Wound" is a
reference to an extremely bloody but hilarious scene in Monty Python and the
Holy Grail - nice.

The Syrian Civil War is a tragedy and the civilians are not the villains.

------
sejje
Re: wiping, isn't it possible that she wiped it herself initially (as author
suggest she would, consciously or not) and then eventually left it alone and
it streamed down past where she had wiped?

