
Spanish police doing an intervention in Fundació puntCAT office - nmc
https://twitter.com/puntcat/status/910446518494269440
======
diggan
In short, for the people who don't have the back story. Catalunya wants to
hold a independence referendum, Spanish Judicial System says it's illegal to
hold a referendum. Catalan politicians are pushing forward anyways.

Before the weekend, the Spanish Judicial System gave a warning to anyone who
helps spreading material about the referendum, or is involved in any way.
Catalans are still pushing forward to hold the vote on the 1st of October.
This lead to this morning's arrests of mayors around Catalunya. And now,
Spanish Judicial System decided that the organization behind the .cat TLD is
somehow involved in the referendum as well.

Previously on "Catalunya VS Spain" also includes Spanish Judicial System
taking down informational websites about the referendum, such as
[http://referendum.pirata.cat](http://referendum.pirata.cat) (which is a
mirror of the one which existed on
[http://referendum.cat](http://referendum.cat) but is now shut down)

~~~
hectorlorenzo
I'm from Barcelona so I'm probably biased, but I still can't understand how
holding a referendum can be illegal in a modern democracy. I'm asking
honestly, this is not rhetorical.

Some say that Catalunya can't decide whether they want to be a country, and I
don't understand that neither. This is like saying that Brexit should have
been voted by all Europeans. Is there any legal technicality that I'm missing?

I guess that a country is more sovereign over their regions than the EU over
their members, but still...

~~~
narag
_I 'm from Barcelona so I'm probably biased_

There are about half of the population of Catalonia that doesn't agree with
you.

 _but I still can 't understand how holding a referendum can be illegal in a
modern democracy._

This is not a referendum to ask about sideways width. It's about asking people
if they want to commit a crime: secession.

 _Some say that Catalunya can 't decide whether they want to be a country, and
I don't understand that neither_

It's very simple. Constitution says that sovereignty is in the nation as a
whole, so a part of the nation can't simply vote to leave. That's the case for
most civilized countries, so hardly a surprise.

 _This is like saying that Brexit should have been voted by all Europeans._

No, it's not. You are comparing denouncing an international treaty with trying
to overcome the government.

 _Is there any legal technicality that I 'm missing?_

No, you are missing the elephant in the room.

~~~
JaumeGreen
The elephant in the room is that the main parties in the Spanish goverment are
using this independence process as a smokescreen to hide all their
wrongdoings.

There have been plenty of scandals, but all are hidden because of this.

Also there is a complete blockage to alter the constitution and there's no
negotiation on their part to open the process and make it more inclusive. They
are using Catalans as scapegoats in order to win votes in other regions, as
they have always done.

I'm seriously tired of being treated, by the Spanish press -guided by the main
parties-, as an insolidary nutjob that doesn't conform to the rules. Specially
when Catalonia is one of the most solidary regions (giving more to the state
than we receive). But we are "guilty" of speaking another language, of
thinking differently, of voting differently, of whatever shit they dare accuse
us.

I'm sick of it all.

And I'm not into politics, so I cannot fathom how burned are the people that
are into politics.

~~~
notspanishflu
"The elephant in the room is that the main parties in the Spanish goverment
are using this independence process as a smokescreen to hide all their
wrongdoings."

That's some assumption, considering the main party promoting the secession had
their party HQ confiscated for their corruption.

"Also there is a complete blockage to alter the constitution"

No, there isn't. There is a perfect legal form to do it.

"Catalonia is one of the most solidary regions (giving more to the state than
we receive)."

No, it WAS. Now the rest of Spain is supporting Catalonia using the FLA
("Fondo de Liquidez Autonómica" or "Autonomous Liquidity Fund").

"I'm sick of it all."

More sick are the majority of Catalans who don't want the secession.

~~~
JaumeGreen
While in the process:

Audiencia Nacional does not approve of confronting Spanish president with of
the main conspirators detained for illegal funding of their party. [0]

An Hacienda (taxes) expert finding clues about this illegal funding. [1]

Ex president of Castilla la Mancha's regional goverment dies before testifying
in a corruption case [2]. There have been lots of deaths of people about to
testify in diferent corruption cases.[3]

75% of the money the goverment put to rescue the banks is now considered as
lost.[4]

"They report that there are 38% of severely dependent and large dependents
without attending"[5]

And some other things that are debatable (and some that are not. I'm not
negating that the governing party in Catalonia has been corrupt too, if it
were for me lots of current and past politicians should be in jail.

> "Also there is a complete blockage to alter the constitution"

> No, there isn't. There is a perfect legal form to do it.

Yes, a way that is completely impossible right now. Specially because it
depends on who has majority in the goverment, and those in power use FUD to
keep being in power.

>Now the rest of Spain is supporting Catalonia using the FLA ("Fondo de
Liquidez Autonómica" or "Autonomous Liquidity Fund").

I had to search what FLA is. That is a credit line that can be used by
regional goverments [6]. That means it has to be payed back.

Catalonia is the region that most money brings to the table with 18.9%, more
than even Madrid with 18.8% (2016)[7] But it's not he one with more investment
(12.78% if you run the numbers)[8].

>More sick are the majority of Catalans who don't want the secession.

I didn't want independence, but I now want it, thanks to the words and actions
of centralist people and politics. If you are saying that the majority doesn't
want it because in 11 september's parade there was only 1 milion people and
there are 6.5 milion more that weren't there... that doesn't compute (I wasn't
there either).

[0][http://www.eldiario.es/politica/Audiencia-Nacional-
Barcenas-...](http://www.eldiario.es/politica/Audiencia-Nacional-Barcenas-
Rajoy-Adade_0_683832278.html)

[1][http://www.publico.es/politica/gurtel-perito-hacienda-
confir...](http://www.publico.es/politica/gurtel-perito-hacienda-confirma-
hubo-ingresos-barcenas.html)

[2][http://www.elmundo.es/espana/2017/09/07/59b0fab8ca47418b038b...](http://www.elmundo.es/espana/2017/09/07/59b0fab8ca47418b038b463b.html)

[3][http://www.abc.es/espana/abci-muertes-y-suicidios-larga-
list...](http://www.abc.es/espana/abci-muertes-y-suicidios-larga-lista-negra-
corrupcion-espana-201707191435_noticia.html)

[4][http://www.elmundo.es/economia/2017/09/07/59b1092e22601dad19...](http://www.elmundo.es/economia/2017/09/07/59b1092e22601dad198b45a3.html)

[5][http://dependencia.es/denuncian-que-hay-un-38-de-
dependiente...](http://dependencia.es/denuncian-que-hay-un-38-de-dependientes-
severos-y-grandes-dependientes-sin-atender/)

[6][https://ca.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fons_de_Liquiditat_Auton%C3%B2...](https://ca.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fons_de_Liquiditat_Auton%C3%B2mica)

[7][http://www.elnacional.cat/ca/economia/catalunya-economia-
esp...](http://www.elnacional.cat/ca/economia/catalunya-economia-
espanya_109375_102.html)

[8][http://www.elmundo.es/economia/macroeconomia/2017/04/04/58e3...](http://www.elmundo.es/economia/macroeconomia/2017/04/04/58e38216e5fdea71158b45e2.html)

EDIT:

Sorry, I didn't (and don't) have time to search for links in English. They are
all in Spanish but one, that it's in Catalan (but has Spanish and German
translation).

If there was any innacuracy in this post I'd rather have conversation than
untold negativity.

------
robin_reala
For more back story in English, The Guardian have an article today on the
police raids in the run up to the Catalan independence referendum:
[https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/sep/20/spain-
guardia-...](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/sep/20/spain-guardia-
civil-raid-catalan-government-hq-referendum-row)

Also, see the (potentially biased) en.Wikipedia article on the referendum:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalan_independence_referendu...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalan_independence_referendum,_2017)

------
amval
One thing that surprises me a lot is how the Catalonian secessionist movement
seems to have a lot of international sympathy. Maybe because it's spinned like
some kind of underdog story.

The reality, however, it's different:

\- Catalonia is a rich, privileged region of Spain, which has benefited
enormously of a huge investment in infraestructure and industry in the last
decades.

\- The indepentist movement was fueled around outright xenophobia, accusing
the central government of "stealing" Catalonians, attacking poorer regions of
Spain (which are full of lazy, untrustworthy people).

\- In the last years, the Catalonian government has shaped their citizen
perception of history, promoting nonsense like "Catalonia is a colony of
Spain". An easy to disprove, but widely repeated argument.

\- The Catalonian government even forbade the use of Spanish to their civil
servants. Which was fined by the EU.

For a long time, state politic parties and catalonian parties, profited from
this absurd "us against them" scenario. Now it's really out of hand, and the
central government has a lot of blame in this.

But I really failed to see why someone should have any sympathy for Catalonian
independentism. It's certainly not based on any historical reality, their
political and economic consequences are unpredictable (but I doubt that
benefitial for anyone other than catalonian politicians) and it's illegal
under any possible frame.

I guess you could justify it if you believe in this abstract right to self-
determination. I personally would have held a referendum long ago. I still
think it's both stupid and immoral (it's usually the rich regions that want
independence, with similar arguments).

~~~
zmb_
I have worked with half a dozen Catalans both in and outside Catalonia. All
highly educated. All in favor of independence.

As far as I have been able to see, they are not in any way xenophobic, or
greedy, or anything else you're accusing them of here. What they do seem to be
is very distinctly Catalan with their own culture, history and language, and
significant grievances towards the Spanish state.

I don't have an opinion on their independence, but I do find it very hard to
justify denying them a right to vote on it. I do suspect the optimal way would
be to negotiate a new relationship with Catalonia inside Spain, but that's
just my mostly uninformed two cents on the issue.

(This is just to give the other side of the argument here.)

~~~
darthdev
While I might agree with the right to vote, there are some issues that the
secessionist don't say ( IMHO they somehow suffer extreme confirmation bias, I
won't say that they are stupid or uneducated ).

The region of Catalonia has a lot of independence inside Spain, similar to a
federal state. They however say that "Madrid oppress them"; that is simply
nonsense, all Catalan citizens, as Spanish citizens, and as EU citizens, has
the same rights ( and obligations ) as Madrid citizens.

The constitution they disregard openly, has a section that explicit protects
their language as part of our collective culture ( source in spanish:
[http://www.congreso.es/consti/constitucion/indice/titulos/ar...](http://www.congreso.es/consti/constitucion/indice/titulos/articulos.jsp?ini=3&tipo=2)
)

The referendum they are pushing, has not guaranties, they even don't have an
official census, so anyone can vote several times in different places. Even if
I were pro-independence, I wouldn't like a referendum like that.

They say openly all the time that the rest of Spain steal from them. Yes, they
pay taxes ( as all the Spanish citizens ), and seems that paying taxes ( using
the same laws as the rest of Spain ) is stealing. I won't say this is
xenophobic or greedy, but there something clearly wrong with that argument.

------
victornomad
As a Spaniard (southern), I fully respect that some part of the country wants
to decide about their future and become independent. This is like a
relationship and sometimes relationships get to an end (for whatever reason).

I support their right to decide but at the same time I feel that the way this
has been managed by both Catalan and Spanish governments is not going to have
a good outcome :(

On the other side I always had the feeling that this is just politicians
willing to use this situation for their own benefit and raise votes. Instead
of creating a peaceful dialogue (both sides) they just prefer to keep with the
same story over and over creating more and more hate between different parts
of the country...

It comes to my mind a book by Chomsky (Media Control) that suggest how US has
created always an enemy to have the country united and the support of the
people.

Borders..... such a colonial western invention and all the problems they have
created.....

------
notspanishflu
(I repeat my comment here thanks to tertius advice).

The government of Catalonia can hold a referendum following the Law. The
problem here is that the government of Catalonia is not following even their
own regional laws approved by them, not to mention the Spanish Constitution.

The secessionists have even forbidden the opposition to participate in the
debates in the Parliament of Catalonia.

Remember also that Catalonia has never been a nation.

~~~
hectorlorenzo
This I don't agree. Catalonia is a nation, it has never been a country. A
nation doesn't require its people to live under the same government and
sovereignty.

Also, can you add some references to some of the more polemical claims (like
"The secessionists have even forbidden the opposition to participate in the
debates in the Parliament of Catalonia.").

Thanks!

~~~
amval
I cannot find English sources:
[https://cronicaglobal.elespanol.com/politica/forcadell-
pasa-...](https://cronicaglobal.elespanol.com/politica/forcadell-pasa-de-los-
servicios-juridicos-del-parlament-para-tramitar-la-ley-del-
referendum_85715_102.html)

The session was televised. The oposition was constantly interrupted and not
allowed to talk. They are not even respecting the laws from the catalonian
parlament. But I guess they have legitimacy because they have the support
of... half the catalonians?

An example of democracy.

~~~
icebraining
_I guess they have legitimacy because they have the support of... half the
catalonians?_

That's more than any party in the national parliament :)

~~~
amval
Is half the support of the catalonians again to secede from the rest of the
country and not respect the inner laws of their parlament? Because, to me, it
sounds like a coup d'etat.

~~~
icebraining
Maybe, but so what if it is? Labeling is not an argument.

------
hectorlorenzo
To all of those wondering, attempting to break the “the indissoluble unity of
the Spanish nation” is a crime according to the Spanish Constitution of 1978.

Of course, you have to consider that after almost 40 years of a fascist
dictatorship, anything that resembled a democratic constitution was good news,
so 90% of Catalans voted in favor of these Constitution.

This is the main reason why, according to the current Constitution, the
current referendum is illegal.

~~~
tertius
If it's so clear, what's the big deal?

------
gasull
Most Catalans seem to be unaware of the financial consequences that
independence would entail:

Since all banks today work with fractional reserve banking, banks in Catalonia
depend on the European Central Bank to keep their ATMs running. If Catalonia
became an independent country and the ECB decided to cut Catalonia out the
Eurozone, the _corralito_ scenes in Catalonia will resemble those we have seen
before in Cyprus and Greece.

------
darthdev
Relevant: The European Commission says that they respect the decisions of the
Spanish constitutional court. Source:
[https://twitter.com/PrensaCE/status/908707446297948160](https://twitter.com/PrensaCE/status/908707446297948160)
( English with Spanish subtitles )

~~~
icebraining
Yeah, even if Catalonia somehow got their independence, they'd be probably
left out of the EU, and possibly Schengen too. It's a hard pill to swallow.

------
robtaylor
There is a good indie english language publisher in Spain
[https://twitter.com/thespainreport](https://twitter.com/thespainreport) who
is providing decent coverage of the ongoing issues.

(I have no affiliation or connection)

~~~
diggan
Guardian is going a great job as well. Here is their collection of articles
about Catalunya:
[https://www.theguardian.com/world/catalonia](https://www.theguardian.com/world/catalonia)

------
rurban
Franco is back, was the summary in German news. It was the typical fascist
tactics to abuse police for such measures.

