
CBS Shuts Down Stage 9, a Fan-Made Recreation of the USS Enterprise - okket
https://torrentfreak.com/cbs-shuts-down-stage-9-a-fan-made-recreation-of-the-uss-enterprise-180927/
======
jedberg
Back in the day, early on in Reddit's life, people started making fan art of
the Reddit alien, and some cases they started making products with their
creations and then giving them away. We pretty much just let that go. Then
someone started selling their products with their fan art, just to make their
costs back. At that point we had a decision to make. Do we shut down all the
fan art, or do we do something about it?

The decision we came to was that our fans are what make us, so we asked our
lawyers to write up a licensing agreement for us that we could use with all
the fans. It included provisions for profit sharing so that people could even
make a profit off their fan art, as long as they cut us in for a small
percentage and got our permission first. And that's how we ended up things
like a complete reddit bike kit. [0][1]

After that, it was easier for us to license stuff than it was to try and shut
it down, not to mention the right thing to do. I'm sad that CBS couldn't come
to the same conclusion.

[0] [http://i.imgur.com/AEPJh.jpg](http://i.imgur.com/AEPJh.jpg)

[1]
[https://www.reddit.com/r/bicycling/comments/2je6z2/2015_redd...](https://www.reddit.com/r/bicycling/comments/2je6z2/2015_reddit_kit_start_your_design_engines/)

~~~
unethical_ban
Politically controversial yet completely legal things, like weapons parts,
were not only banned on manufacturing, but as a logo on the subreddit[1].
Meanwhile, a federally illegal, in different ways controversial activity such
as marijuana consumption is permitted[2]. It's the right of the company, but
there is certainly bias in the use of the logo, and not all fans of reddit are
welcome.

1\. [https://imgur.com/a/bAOhi#tY6JS4l](https://imgur.com/a/bAOhi#tY6JS4l)

2\. [https://old.reddit.com/r/trees/](https://old.reddit.com/r/trees/)

~~~
jedberg
I kinda knew this would come up. The gun thing was my call. I'm the one who
approved the use of the logo on a lower receiver.

I consider it one of the worst decisions I ever made.

Yes, it was legal, but it caused a huge controversy and made the controversy
even worse when we had to pull it back.

The balancing act with allowing fan art is that one group of fans hates the
work of another group of fans, you have to make a moral decision as to which
group is "right", and it's always the wrong decision to some people.

In that case we should have predicted the controversy and said no from the
beginning.

~~~
unethical_ban
I respect your willingness to engage in conversation like you have here. I'm
trying to remember there are humans on the other side of the keyboard.

I really do think it is questionable to reject a community's use of an
otherwise almost universally free logo, and permit them on the site.

I'm one to recognize that in every discussion about everything, "there is a
line somewhere" and the debate is where the line is. My belief is that guns
are on a defendable side of the line, and you didn't.

I believe if firearms are so morally wrong that reddit doesn't want associated
with it, then it would be most consistent to quarantine the sub to make clear
how morally opposed reddit is to legal, responsible firearms ownership. At the
end of the day, though, it is about money. You figured out you could piss off
the gun owners, but not enough for them to leave the platform, while placating
the anti-firearms protesters.

So it goes.

~~~
alexc05
Remember that Reddit is also a website with a global footprint.

Many other places in the world find the near constant mass shootings
abhorrent, feel the US’ obsession with the AR-15 is an abusive relationship,
and that the arguments around "guns = freedom" or any discussion of controls
around weaponry defy all logic and reason.

The USA is a very small part of the global population and are apparently only
around 50% of the Reddit user base.

For every user who feels Reddit should allow their logo to be associated with
guns there are likely 2 or 3 who feel they have a moral obligation to _not_ to
promote them.

~~~
unethical_ban
I maintain that if reddit cared as much as the hypothetical majority of reddit
users, so much as to revoke licensing of the logo for a US-legal activity,
they would quarantine all subs that promote such "immoral" behavior.

The reddit admins only care about staying out of the crosshairs. Let jailbait
stay around until it's in the news. Let racist subs stay around until an
uproar. Let /r/guns use Snoo until a bunch of activists yell long enough.
There is no ideology, only pragmatism about keeping pageviews and revenue.
They could quarantine /r/guns and related, but they would alienate 350,000
plus accounts.

They could ban T_D too, but there are millions of users there. As an aside, I
think that is a federal honeypot for Russian agitprop research, but we won't
know for years.

>and that the arguments around ... any discussion of controls around weaponry
defy all logic and reason.

I didn't parse that.

------
iamben
Honestly, I don't understand the logic of some people.

They're so desperate to keep a tight grab on what they have, they lose sight
of what could be. It's like the music industry ~20 years ago. Rather than
suing people that were downloading - FANS that were downloading - they could
have gone "how can we monetise this?" Or even, "we have a ton of cash, let's
buy the small companies that are doing MP3 stuff and see what happens." But
they fight it to the extreme (looking at you, Metallica) and everyone loses.
Until now, when a large portion (what was it last week, 75%?) of the revenue
is now precisely what they fought against, but they've lost a large portion of
the control.

Same thing here. I haven't watched Star Trek for ages. But fans and fans
talking are what makes something successful. Based on the article alone, this
looks far more like a passion project than a revenue driver. Surely a more
sensible approach would be "We love that you've done this. We'd like you to
advertise our new/old show/merch/whatever" and we'll send you some goodies to
say thanks. Everyone wins.

Sigh.

~~~
Raphmedia
It's a legal thing. Everyone is worried that their intellectual properties
might turn public domain.

~~~
bodas
Copyright doesn't turn public domain if you don't exercise your rights. A work
only becomes public domain if the copyright period lapses or (in some
countries) if they make an explicit declaration to that effect.

~~~
dingaling
Copyright would cover the original design documents for the sets and props,
but not the shapes and colours themselves 'as seen on TV'.

From what I understand unlicensed clean-room reproduction of sets could
violate design marks, if those were even registered. Like other trademarks
those do indeed need to be enforced.

~~~
LanceH
But trademark infringement doesn't trigger merely from copying.

The infuriating thing about dealing with lawyers on IP is they'll write a C&D
that "your work infringes on the IP of my client." There is never any mention
of what infringes, except the broadest possible, and there is no
responsibility for a false claim.

------
ravenstine
\- "Oh yeah, we own that old series? How come we aren't making more money off
it?"

\- "Let's bring that show back and hire showrunners who have stated that they
hate the original show."

\- "The existing fans of the show are geeks and nerds. Let's alienate them so
we can appeal to a more general audience. And let's also be sure to punish
them for expressing their adoration of the show."

\- "Add more special effects! Lens flare! Insert gratuitous eroticism and
obvious political propaganda! Enraged viewers are profitable viewers." (Rule
of Acquisition #287)

\- "Why aren't millennials watching cable TV anymore? Nitflix? We're a multi-
billion dollar company, so why can't we have our own streaming service?
That'll be hip with the kids, right?"

That's basically why I don't watch Star Trek anymore or TV in general. Why
would I pay money to people who don't appreciate what I did for them all those
years starting from age 6?

~~~
nickysielicki
> obvious political propaganda

Can someone please recommend an article/documentary/book/etc. that goes into
detail about how this works in practice? It's so obvious when you watch shows
like _Jack Ryan_ or _Madam Secretary_ or _Zero Dark Thirty_ that there are
some backroom dealings going on that insert a particular political association
onto the viewer, but the scale and scope of such a targeted insertion is so
ridiculous that you start to wonder if you're just being paranoid. The amount
of people that would have to be involved with it, and for everyone to go along
with it...

Someone must have blown the whistle on this at some point, right? I'm not out
of my mind, am I?

~~~
teh_klev
You should check out Tom Secker's "Spy Culture" website. You'd be quite amazed
how much influence the US Military (and other US departments) have when it
comes to producing movies and TV series that need even the slightest
assistance from the US Air Force/Navy/CIA/FBI etc.

"Need to hire a couple of UH-60's for a scene? Let's be having a look at your
script first."

Secker also has a book (it's on my reading list) called "National Security
Cinema"[1] which investigates these same themes.

[0]: [https://www.spyculture.com/](https://www.spyculture.com/)

[1]: [https://www.amazon.co.uk/National-Security-Cinema-
Government...](https://www.amazon.co.uk/National-Security-Cinema-Government-
Hollywood/dp/1548084980/)

~~~
wincy
The military wouldn’t give assistance with props and such in Independence Day
unless they took out references to Area 51.

[https://uproxx.com/movies/why-military-cut-ties-with-
indepen...](https://uproxx.com/movies/why-military-cut-ties-with-independence-
day-area-51/)

~~~
teh_klev
Yes, that's a very typical example.

------
BugsJustFindMe
When this project hit HN a month ago I said

> _It does look cool. And it also looks like a huge labor of love. Luckily CBS
> and Paramount Pictures already have guidelines in place for allowing
> noncommercial fan-made productions. One hopes that they will continue to
> recognize how important hardcore fandom like this is to the success of the
> franchise._

And now I'm saddened.

------
giancarlostoro
I'd have gone more of The Orville approach and made a game loosely inspired by
Star Trek or something to that extent and made a ship that looks somewhat like
the USS Enterprise which I've seen done in at least one commercial game, I
can't recall the name of it though.

Oh, what sad times are these when IP/copyright ruffians can 'cease and desist'
at will to old fans. There is a pestilence upon this land. Nothing is sacred.
Even those who arrange and design video games are under considerable economic
stress at this period in history.

~~~
MPSimmons
Bridge Crew is basically just a really pretty, licensed version of Artemis
([https://store.steampowered.com/app/247350/Artemis_Spaceship_...](https://store.steampowered.com/app/247350/Artemis_Spaceship_Bridge_Simulator/))

------
petepete
They shut down the (fantastic, at the time) Tricorder app[0] for Android about
ten years ago. I have no idea how that (or this) could possibly do anything
other than piss off fans of their shows.

That being said, Star Trek is pretty much dead to me now.

[0]
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vxvqrwxu-84](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vxvqrwxu-84)

~~~
modzu
thanks for this! developer here; im going to recreate this app for the sole
pleasure of telling cbs to 'suck it' when they send the inevitable cease and
desist. and when it goes to court, ill be back pleading for help! :)

~~~
jimktrains2
[https://fxedel.gitlab.io/fdroid-
website/packages/org.hermit....](https://fxedel.gitlab.io/fdroid-
website/packages/org.hermit.tricorder/)

[https://gitorious.org/f-droid-
mirrors/tricorder](https://gitorious.org/f-droid-mirrors/tricorder)

------
yosefzeev
Creating a vision of a moneyless future of a federation of planets to be ruled
over in the actual world by a fracturing money-hungry conglomerate is my
vision of all that is wrong in the world.

~~~
52-6F-62
Worst part is this wouldn't have cost them a dime.

Is there a word that holds the same meaning as "irony", but with stronger
implication?

------
YeGoblynQueenne
As a dyed-in-the-wool trekkie, this makes absolute sense. Fans understand Trek
in ways that CBS execs do not and _never will_. Therefore, CBS are scared
shitless whenever some fan work comes up that they think may remind the fans
how shitty the official output is and how far from what many consider the true
spirit of Trek.

... yeah, I'm talking about the Abrams stuff. And -more controversially, I
guess- Star Trek Discovery [1].

_____________

[1] No, not because there is a black woman in the lead. Christ, already. It's
just ... nice SciFi but not Trek.

~~~
DiabloD3
Babylon 5 is one of the best Star Treks out there.

It ain't like CBS isn't already known for their long list of unprofitable
behavior ;)

------
deckar01
I was recently exposed to this interpretation of copyright law. I was trying
to get an ad for 3D printing services approved and I was informed that
although I personally designed and built a vase that looks like a prop from
the film "The Fifth Element", I did not own the rights to reproduce it in any
way, including using photos of my object. When I read into it it appeared that
every visual element in a film is covered by an implicit copyright, and any
derivative work based on those elements is controlled by the copyright holder.
There is no practical way to acquire a license or determine if one is even
necessary. I don't understand how people who blatantly derive their work from
people who can't defend it feel justified in taking control of derivatives of
their work from their fans.

~~~
pssflops
Whatever happened to "fair use"?

~~~
deckar01
It is narrowly defined as transformative comments, criticism, and parodies.
Being inspired by a small visual element of a much larger work apparently
requires licensing.

------
teekert
Its because lawyers (of which there are already too many) need to have
something to do to justify their salaries. They don't care if they hurt the
franchise they are "protecting". At this point I'd love for someone like
Patrick Steward or LeVar Burton (very interesting guy with nice projects like
LeVar Burton reads btw...) to drop some comments on Twitter about this
nonsense.

These lawyers do nothing but hurt people that love Star Trek a lot and
probably are among the franchise's best customers.

~~~
Mediterraneo10
"At this point I'd love for someone like Patrick Steward or LeVar Burton ...
to drop some comments on Twitter about this nonsense."

I have heard rumours over the years that a lot of Star Trek actors are creeped
out by the fan community. Some might hide those feelings so that they can get
some nice income from the convention circuit, but could you really expect them
to rush to support obsessive fans in a case like this?

~~~
ConceptJunkie
Who hasn't met a Star Trek fan that creeped them out? That doesn't mean that
the majority of fans are weird or bad people.

------
captainmuon
I don't understand why CBS won't just let them do their thing. It's not like
they are loosing profit from it. I further don't understand why the maker's
didn't just release this anonymously to begin with.

Anyway, I believe (hope) one day copyright and ownership of stories will be
seen as a major injustice. Why can't everybody have their own Star Trek? There
is no need to control it, or for copyright to be exclusive. There still can be
an "official" CBS Star Trek if we legalize fan works.

~~~
wanderingjew
Because Patrick Stewart signed on for another Star Trek reboot. This would
obviously feature the bridge of the Enterprise D.

A few years ago, CBS shut down the fan film Axanar, because it told the story
of the Star trek universe about 10 years before Kirk, during the Klingon war.
Last year, Discovery aired, which tells the story of the Klingon war.

Take this as a sign of what the new Picard series will include.

~~~
Zardoz84
Don't forget that they go form very relaxed police with fanfilms to a stupid
police (for example, they enforce to use ORIGINAL merchandising from Star Trek
for props on fan films)

------
DocTomoe
"Oh god, we have a fanatical fanbase which wants to drown us in cubic miles of
their disposable income, what should we ever do?"

"Find out something they like, then sue the hell out of it."

~~~
maxsilver
I think it's trickier than that.

"Oh god, we have a fanatical fanbase which isn't interested in buying our
(expensive new product) but which still loves this (discontinued product), and
are making more of it without paying for our licensing"

"Find the unlicensed (discontinued product) and sue the hell out of it"

I suspect this has little to do with wanting to piss off TNG fans, but about
trying to coerce them into the newer products (like Discovery, or the unnamed
Patrick Stewart reboot), or at least protecting the licensing fees they still
get around TNG. (See how they are suing Stage 9, but are totally ok with Star
Trek: Bridge Crew and Star Trek: Online -- which have TNG stuff in them).

I don't agree with this method of enforcement. But I could imagine how/why an
executive might think this way.

They could have easily used these same lawyers time to help Stage 9 move into
proper paid licensing instead (making them even more money, and simultaneously
being nicer to the fans and creators). But I'm not a highly paid executive, so
what do I know?

~~~
baud147258
> Star Trek: Bridge Crew and Star Trek: Online

I'm pretty those two products are officially licensed by CBS, so I don't think
CBS is stupid enough to sue them.

------
mattlondon
I did not hear about this project until I saw the story yesterday.

The wayback machine has an archive of the download page's link to the torrent,
which is heavily seeded.

The Streisand Effect strikes again...

~~~
jorisw
magnet:?xt=urn:btih:ce1cf2847d8303a8e7e708cb378d9e7ab1534628&dn=Stage9-Mac-v009.zip

magnet:?xt=urn:btih:f2b84daf5a60ad9a452c933523de7ec786bbb0bd&dn=Stage9-Windows-v10.exe

~~~
Sargos
More importantly... is there a torrent of the last VR release?

~~~
jorisw
magnet:?xt=urn:btih:2fa616b75593e7e3561e1b80552a70a1b1a14ff5&dn=Stage9%20-%20Windows%20%2b%20Linux%20%2b%20VR&tr=udp%3a%2f%[http://2fmgtracker.org%3a6969%2fannounce&tr=udp%3a%2f%http:/...](http://2fmgtracker.org%3a6969%2fannounce&tr=udp%3a%2f%http://2ftracker.mg64.net%3a6969%2fannounce)

------
TheRealPomax
Usually something _this_ aggressive is because the license owner already has
another party lined up to make a product that would be in direct competition
with the fan made product, either in name only, or in content.

So I guess expect a star trek game that lets you walk around the USS
Enterprise coming out in the forseeable future, and expect it to be not as
good as Stage 9 because it needs to make money, not let people just "walk
around".

~~~
deckar01
[https://www.playstation.com/en-us/games/star-trek-bridge-
cre...](https://www.playstation.com/en-us/games/star-trek-bridge-crew-ps4/)

------
torgian
That's terrible, seriously. If it were up to me, I would move to east Asia and
continue this project in Hong Kong or China or some place where this sort of
thing happens all the time.

------
carapace
"The Orville" has season 2 coming out.

I gotta hand it to MacFarlane, he's carrying the torch forward better than
anybody else, IMHO.

------
StavrosK
Alright, so, where should these projects go when they're threatened out of
existence? IPFS? Secret organization on Keybase?

Maybe I should start a company in Somalia or somewhere which will head/protect
maintainers/release worthwhile OSS projects that have been threatened with
legal action.

------
sehugg
"The answer ... is no. We are therefore going anyway." \-- Kirk, Star Trek III

------
pjc50
I don't know why people attempt huge efforts like this when they _must know_
that they will get shut down as soon as it becomes sufficiently visible. Same
goes for "fan remake" games and the like.

~~~
modzu
swat teams don't raid COMICON and carry away everyone dressed up in star trek
outfits in paddy wagons right? fan art is a legitimate and protected form of
artistic expression

------
dommer
Sounds a like a real shame, lots of faithful energy put to good quality work.

Perhaps this is more about projected issues than this specific work. Law is
based off the precedence of previous cases. If this project is allowed to
continue other future projects may get legal precedence to continue, and those
future projects may damage the brand or the profitability of the IP.

~~~
ascagnel_
If it's about setting precedent, CBS could still offer licenses free-of-
charge. Lawyers would still get their rights, and PR doesn't have to deal with
the fallout of a C&D against a fan project.

------
ryanhuff
My son plays minecraft off and on. Recently he showed me a fan created online
world that would surely be shut down if the Corp entity that controls the
brand was to discover it. Its not very well know as far as I can tell.

It sounds like these Star Trek fans were a victim of their own success and
large community.

------
chooseaname
> The member of the CBS legal team that issued the order went on holiday for a
> week immediately after sending the letter through, which slowed things down
> considerably.”

So, only one person on the legal team is allowed to work on this case? This is
just hugely unprofessional. I think I would contact the ABA.

------
nullsmack
Here's a prime example of why existing Copyright law is extremely harmful and
should be shredded asap.

------
unethical_ban
Ignore CBS' unwillingness to cooperate. Remove copyrighted elements like
anything you didn't create by hand, remove references to 1701-D and Enterprise
and any character. Take it to court.

I'll help with the GoFundMe.

~~~
imglorp
It won't stop them from suing on the grounds that a "typical person" would
recognize the material, ie close enough.

eg: [https://99designs.com/blog/tips/5-famous-copyright-
infringem...](https://99designs.com/blog/tips/5-famous-copyright-infringement-
cases/)

So they'll sue and it's not at all clear you'd win. Win or not, that's going
to be a huge defense pot to match the CBS lawyer armada.

Just my opinion, but if you're going to throw a bunch of money into the wind
with low certainty and low reward, there are many worthy charities in great
need.

------
kerng
Extremley defensive reaction by CBS. CBS should have done the opposite,
sponsor the project or financially support it, so it becomes theirs or at
least have some influence on it. Prosperity for all would follow.

------
sailfast
Rename it Star Trick, change the badges on the uniform slightly - maybe have
the NPCs say random insulting things, and then call it satire. I'd imagine
it's at least one way to cover your bases?

------
Aeolun
Ah fuck, this is the first I even heard of this, but it sounds really cool.
Guess I’ll never get to experience it now.

I just don’t get why companies feel the need to be a dick to everything that
moves.

------
transfire
Funny how the lessons of the shows seem completely lost on CBS. I'm done with
them. Will always love ST, but the latest movies and TV show miss the mark.
Time to move on.

------
logfromblammo
This is what we lose when the public domain becomes outlawed by endless
copyright extensions.

When that genre-based concept gets locked up for decades under the same
corporate masters, we get Star Trek: Discovery, behind a paywall on a shard of
the fragmented video streaming market. The fans inspired by the earlier series
while they were younger simply do a better job-with fan-art like this and
Galaxy Quest and The Orville--than the officially-sanctioned studio can crank
out.

It's almost as though we need some "copyleft" seeds for various genres able to
support large fandoms, such that anyone can add to them, and submit pull
requests to the community-elected maintainers to become canon. Licensing is
free (gratis, not libre) and automatic. Rather than going all in on Star Trek,
or Star Wars, or Starcraft, or Stargate, or Star Control, or Babylon 5, or
Dune, or Asimov-verse, or whatever, all that open-culture fan-fiction can be
actually publishable for profit and adding to the common fandom. Like public
domain used to be, before they choked it out.

I think it would take an alliance of authors/playwrights who don't
individually have great chances at becoming rich and famous to essentially
enter into a suicide pact lite, to sacrifice the possibility of more rich to
improve the likelihood of more famous. They agree upon the rules for the
fiction universe, and divvy it up such that each writes a piece of the canon.
Then they publish on a fixed initial release schedule and hope it catches on.
Once the fan-fic starts coming in, they actually read it, and declare the best
work to also be canon, re-publishing it and paying the authors their cut. If
it catches on, do a pilot teleplay with the best community theater actors
available. Publish digital models of the signature props for at-home 3D
printing. It could eat the lunch of the closed-culture franchises. But it
could also fall flat, or fall victim to infighting.

It seems like this idea is not new, and it isn't. Creative Commons has laid
the groundwork. The problem is that it only provides the vision and the legal
framework, and hasn't tackled the aspect of creating an intentional community
to seed a specific fertile plot in the field. There's nothing there yet to tie
disparate creators together as being part of the same overall thing. Space
Opera and Sci-Fi Adventure-Drama are proven genres. The conventions don't lie;
people go and spend.

------
tony-allan
Way to build and maintain a fan base CBS.

I'm assume you were legally within your rights to do this but you guys suck!

------
neuromantik8086
Maybe it's time to reboot Babylon 5.

------
vertline3
Star Trek was always a vehicle for communism, kind of funny that CBS protects
it with capitalist vigour.

------
bitL
Lesson to learn: when you are working so hard on something like this, make
your own story and design every single time, don't copy somebody's ideas even
if it is for free. Team up with similar people if you lack in some part of
required imagination.

~~~
apetresc
But the whole point of this project was to carry nostalgia for TNG. There's
millions of 3d models for generic spaceships. The only reason this one existed
was to be Star Trek down to its smallest details.

~~~
bitL
Yes, you are right. However lawyers gave us all an answer we didn't want to
hear, hence it's futile to be a creative fan of copyrighted works, unless one
wants to restrict their creations to dark web only and risk consequences way
out of proportions.

------
grizzles
The Constitution guarantees the right to free expression. CBS's strategy is
based on threats, not law. A common misconception: Stage 9 looks the same as
the USS Enterprise and that matters; nope. Legally, if Stage 9 is an original
work, there isn't much CBS can do to stop it other than to try to look scary
w/endless litigation. With the ACLU's help Stage 9 should easily prevail.

~~~
pavel_lishin
Do you have something you can cite regarding this? If I write my own novel
that happens to look exactly like Stephen King's "It", I can't just start
publishing it.

~~~
grizzles
If yours was an original work, how would you know it's the same? It's absurdly
unlikely that you could write "It" but I'm sure people co-invent blocks of
text every day.

I wonder what the longest block of text is on the internet that two people
independently wrote.

~~~
pavel_lishin
My point is that if someone recreates an exact replica of the NCC-1701-D
bridge, or another creative work that someone else made, it's ludicrous to
suggest that the first amendment somehow magically protects you from doing
whatever you want with it.

~~~
grizzles
What exactly do you consider an exact replica? A screenshot from the TV
series? It's a fictional object. It's not like it's the bloody Concorde and
they photocopied the plans from BAC/Aérospatiale and posted them on the
internet.

~~~
pavel_lishin
That's a fair point; other commenters pointed out that parts of the ship as
depicted are identical to the parts seen on TV (e.g., the screens with the
LCARS systems on them.) That's pretty damning.

