
Open offices are bad for us - eloycoto
http://www.bbc.com/capital/story/20170105-open-offices-are-damaging-our-memories
======
garrettdimon
A lot of the comments here seem to focus on socialization and feeling like
you're in a community, but closed offices don't preclude this.

I work at Wildbit (the company referenced in the article), and we have family-
style lunches around a big table and plenty of common areas where
socialization happens in the mornings, during lunch, when people make coffee,
and plenty of other times.

The key is that when folks are working, they can do so in their office and
stay focused. It's a balance of the two. Quiet space when folks need to focus
and social space for other times. Having private offices and half the team
working remotely doesn't affect socialization. We just tend to have better
separation between the two so that they don't blur into each other or impact
others who are trying to stay focused.

~~~
PunchTornado
getting work done is NOT why I come to the office. I don't like to be one of
those guys who sells half of his day to somebody. I come to work to have fun,
meet people etc.I also have to work sometimes... but it is easier to mix the 2
of them in an open space. Sure, I'm not very productive, but that's not what I
want.

~~~
mulmen
Did I miss a sarcasm tag or are you serious? I honestly can't tell.

------
smelendez
Open offices are awful, but they're here to stay for the same reason more
adults are living with roommates and relatives: high real estate prices.

Working remotely is one solution, but many companies don't think it would work
for them.

Personally, I'd make the shared area for solitary work only: no work
discussions longer than a minute at work areas (use a conference room, take a
walk or Slack), no eating at work areas, no audible media. I'd physically
isolate people who have to make calls from their desks from other employees as
much as possible. I'd also provide a break room for eating and install some
retro phone booths in it for semiprivate personal calls on breaks. Also, a
private room--not necessarily big--for breast feeding and pumping, taking
medication, calling doctors' offices, and the like.

~~~
JoeAltmaier
Strangely, open offices with cubicles can be _more expensive_ than building
drywall walls to make closed offices. And the much-vaunted flexibility of
cubicles is way, way overrated. In my experience, cubicles sit in the same
place for years. Any benefit of re-using them is lost. Also if the company is
growing, new ones get bought all the time, so old ones aren't re-used anyway.

Its obvious on the face of it: re-usable walls and shelving are going to be
more expensive than simple stick construction. You have to be re-using it
constantly (reformatting office space every month or quarter) to make it pay.
And then you're tanking everybody's productivity.

I think open-office is some brain virus that keeps infecting managers
everywhere. We need some kind of vaccine to combat it.

~~~
jasode
_> We need some kind of vaccine to combat it._

The vaccine is a startup that is 10x (or even just 2x) better than everyone
else _because_ they use private offices.

Since that hypothetical business hasn't yet proven that idea, all the articles
from journalists writing about "open offices bad" are just preaching to the
choir.

Even the common cited reason for open offices being "saves real estate costs"
is questionable. As an example, look at Mark Zuckerberg's old Harvard photos
when building Facebook.[1] Look specifically at the 8th and 16th photos.[2][3]

See how everybody is literally in an "open office" crowded around a kitchen
table?

In Mark's mind, that collaboration "works" for him and helped make Facebook
successful. Therefore, it should also work for future hires. This is why cash-
rich Facebook that has money to build private offices equal to lawyers' suites
eschews that and opts to build an open plan instead. The new 2015 headquarters
is expansion of that "2005 Harvard open office" on a grander scale.[4]

Mark Z works still works in that open warehouse concept instead of a private
suite.[5]

I see very little commentary from HN that directly deals with executives who
_really believe in their hearts_ it's a superior way to work.

[1] [http://piximus.net/celebrities/mark-zuckerberg-harvard-
photo...](http://piximus.net/celebrities/mark-zuckerberg-harvard-photos)

[2] [http://piximus.net/media/35747/mark-zuckerberg-harvard-
photo...](http://piximus.net/media/35747/mark-zuckerberg-harvard-photos-8.jpg)

[3] [http://piximus.net/media/35747/mark-zuckerberg-harvard-
photo...](http://piximus.net/media/35747/mark-zuckerberg-harvard-
photos-16.jpg)

[4] [http://www.kwiknews.my/news/facebook-takes-the-open-
office-c...](http://www.kwiknews.my/news/facebook-takes-the-open-office-
concept-to-a-new-extreme)

[5] deep link: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l--
zev_37QA&feature=youtu.be...](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l--
zev_37QA&feature=youtu.be&t=1m28s)

~~~
christophilus
FogCreek / StackOverflow might be an example of this.
[https://stackoverflow.blog/2015/01/why-we-still-believe-
in-p...](https://stackoverflow.blog/2015/01/why-we-still-believe-in-private-
offices/)

~~~
jasode
First, Stackoverflow was _not successful because_ it was built by programmers
in private offices. It was successful because Joel Spolsky and Jeff Atwood had
popular blogs followed by a large population of programmers sick of
ExpertExchange. Stackoverflow is a demonstration of guerilla-SEO via a ready-
made audience to make a site instantly popular.

Fog Creek has(had) 3 major products:

\- FogBugz: profitable but less of a success than Atlassian

\- Trello: not profitable (sold to Atlassian)

\- Stackoverflow/StackExchange : not profitable yet [1]

According to the open-office "distractions/interuptions" theory of killing
productivity, the Atlassian programmers should have been _severely
handicapped_ and as a result JIRA should have evolved at a snails pace.
Instead, the opposite happened and Atlassian JIRA released more features than
FogBugz. Both FogBugz and Trello lost to Atlassian.

That Joel Spolsky post about private offices gets repeatedly cited in threads
about its benefits but I recommend people not mention it. It undermines their
point. It's ineffective at convincing executives. However, it's _very
effective_ at making other programmers reading it nod in agreement (aka
"preaching to the choir").

Don't link ineffective articles devoid of business evidence that happens to
confirm your desires. Instead, study the way some executives actually think.
Too many programmers dismiss companies' rationale for open offices merely as
_" saves square footage costs"_ or _" it's a way to spy on employees because
of distrust"_. Yes, some of that may be true but _others also have different
reasons_. (Take a look at the Mark Zuckerberg video I linked and listen to
what he's saying about his desk in the open floor plan. Is he trying to
recreate that elbow-to-elbow collaboration he had at the Harvard kitchen table
or is he just trying to spy on people? Would that Joel Spolsky article
convince Mark Z to build private offices? No? Why not?)

[1] [https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2015/01/20/stack-exchange-
rai...](https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2015/01/20/stack-exchange-raises-40m/)

------
cnagele
Hey everyone, Chris Nagele here from Wildbit. For some background, I wrote
about our reasons for moving to a private office plan. In short, it's more
than putting on some headphones.

[http://wildbit.com/blog/2015/03/06/wildbit-hq-ending-the-
ope...](http://wildbit.com/blog/2015/03/06/wildbit-hq-ending-the-open-office-
epidemic)

And a tour of the office itself:

[http://wildbit.com/blog/2015/08/05/wildbit-office-
tour](http://wildbit.com/blog/2015/08/05/wildbit-office-tour)

~~~
rubidium
Can you provide an estimate of total build cost / employee?

It's a nice looking space, but likely only attainable for high margin
industries like software engineering.

~~~
blowski
Exactly. Where do you put your 10 junior developers in an office like that and
still be profitable?

------
jMyles
Am I the only one left on HN who prefers open plan? I've done some of my best
work for open plan companies.

I have a particularly fond memory of when Reelio rented space at Blueprint
(healthcare incubator in NYC). We stayed up very late, listened to loud music,
and did some of the best work of our lives.

I remember one night in particular, listening to the soundtrack from "O
Brother Where Art Thou," when asynchrony and mutexes finally _really_ clicked
for me.

~~~
kbart
_" We stayed up very late, listened to loud music, and did some of the best
work of our lives."_

No offense, but that sounds like some kind of boys club, not professional
working environment. Staying up late = no respect for private life (unless
you've signed for it), loud arbitrary music = forced culture implications (why
do _I_ have to listen to the music you like?). Yes, probably our work place
expectations differs immensely.

~~~
jMyles
Your comment doesn't resonate with me.

Have you worked in an early- or mid-stage startup in NYC or the Bay Area in
the past... 10 years?

> No offense, but that sounds like some kind of boys club, not professional
> working environment

That's a strange value judgment; I'm not really sure what to think about it.
At the end of the day, the company is still growing and meeting its goals. It
is also still facilitating the development of open source software.

So something is working.

> Staying up late = no respect for private life (unless you've signed for it)

Reelio is one of those clients that _excited_ me to show up early and stay
late.

They also welcomed my wife and our baby to join whenever they wanted.

Hardly disrespect for private life.

> loud arbitrary music = forced culture implications (why do I have to listen
> to the music you like?)

Well, sure - this doesn't work in the middle of the day when the entire
company is there.

But at 1AM when it's just a half dozen developers?

Have you never had the experience of hearing new music at someone else's
recommendation in a teamwork setting? It's a beautiful feeling.

~~~
amyjess
> Have you worked in an early- or mid-stage startup in NYC or the Bay Area in
> the past... 10 years?

...why do you think I have no desire to move to either of those parts of the
country or to work for a startup? I like to describe Silicon Valley as
"degenerate" for a few reasons, and this is one of them.

I'm perfectly happy working in the suburbs of Texas in a corporate environment
(~500 employees, B2B telecom industry).

> and our baby to join whenever they wanted

Screaming baby in the office = I quit. I'm glad my current employer has "no
children in the office" as written policy in our handbook.

~~~
jMyles
Unless I'm missing something, you weren't the person I was responding to,
right?

I'm not saying that the startup environment is great for everyone, but it has
produced a compelling critique of the corporate environment. Clearly.

Shared music, late nights, open plans, families, ping pong / pinball, and so
on... These aren't _per se_ the mark of a "boys club" in contrast to a
"professional environment," they are a critique of the industry-style work
environment, and one that has been enormously successful in two the most
economically active cities in the USA.

~~~
wott
This startup scene so far never made sense to me, but now thanks to you I can
see the light: it was an artistic militant happening! Hurray!

------
bobbark
Unfortunately, a large (if not the largest) reason for open office plans that
rarely comes up is space efficiency, ie packing more people into the same
space. Sure, there are might be some folks who also think about creativity,
but in my experience, a large portion of open space layouts have been driven
by real estate cost considerations.

~~~
OpenDrapery
The decision maker always spins open office as some kind of collaborative,
productivity enhancer. But we all know the real reason is cost.

~~~
mattmanser
I've always got the feeling more often the reason is trust, they don't trust
their employees to work without someone looking at them all the time.

~~~
croon
Through many experiences I think you're right. However that is an issue that
could be solved by being better at measuring productivity.

If I can produce better results while playing games for 4 hours and working
for 4 hours in a closed office than I could while "working diligently" for 8
hours in an open office, then it's hard to argue for the value of visually
supervising someone.

~~~
majewsky
It may be hard to argue rationally, but the protestant work ethic is a strong
influence on our culture.

------
Raphmedia
Diseases and sickness are the worst part of open offices. One day one person
gets sick. The second day the person to his left also gets sick. The day
after, half of the open office is sick. After a week, the entire office is
sick. You can almost track the migration of the disease across the room.

~~~
dx034
That's why good managers will tell their employee to go home when they're ill.
There are companies that have strict policies for that, to avoid exactly this
problem. Even though it's a problem that probably mostly affects flexible
working space. If you don't share your desk with anyone else, you should
usually be >3ft away from other people, lowering the risk for contagion.

~~~
romanovcode
Yeah, and this should be encouraged by everyone, not only managers. You should
definitely tell your workmate to go home if he is sick.

~~~
logfromblammo
My company does not provide sick leave or paid vacation. They replaced it with
"PTO" to make it easier to treat a _de jure_ salaried employee like a _de
facto_ hourly wage-earning employee.

I have no time-card code to use for hours that I cannot work, due to being
involuntarily banished from the office due to illness.

So guess what, people? If I'm sick, and I feel like I can work, I'm coming in
to the office. If I don't work 40 hours in a week, my pay gets docked.
(Actually, the computerized system forces me to "request" that my own pay be
docked.) And if I need to take PTO time for a sniffle, I can't use it later,
in lieu of actual vacation. So if anyone orders me to go home, that order had
better be accompanied by a check.

If Sneezy McHackencoff gets the entire rest of the office sick, that is a
direct consequence of the employer's worker-hostile HR policy. Don't blame the
messenger. Your company consciously decided that it does not want to provide
you with a salubrious work environment, in order to move inconvenient "future
obligations" off their balance sheets. If they gave out sick leave and
vacation, they would have to keep some money in the bank, to pay you when you
use it. And you could use it at any time, so it has to be very liquid.
Obviously, they would rather earn a higher rate of interest on that cash, if
they have it, and also not have to pay it to you if you still have time left
when you leave the company.

Sick leave is just one of the benefits that even the simplest and weakest of
collective-bargaining units can enforce, and one of the things that is
becoming harder and harder to find around here.

Back when I actually had sick leave, I used it appropriately. I'm very sorry
about possibly making my peers sick now, but if you keep using your own energy
to cover things up, management will never get any firsthand experience with
the potential damage their stupid personnel policies can wreak on the
business. I'm not trying to get you sick. I'm trying to get upper management
and HR to reinstate sick leave, without getting "at will" fired for being an
uppity peon. Getting each other sick is the only leverage we have. Don't go
around sneezing on other people's keyboards. That's malicious intent. Just go
in to work, and go about your business as usual. If anyone suggests that you
should go home, say "I would have stayed home, but I have no sick leave, and I
can't afford to not work today."

------
Maro
I've been working in open office environments for the last 5+ years, also at
one of AmaFaceGooSoft. I find it's a non-issue, it doesn't bother me or
others, I can't recall a time in the last 1-2 years when someone complained
about it. Saying that o.o. is not effective is a bit fishy given how
successful some of the companies employing it are.

I remember 10+ years ago at my first job we had a nice office building (it was
an architectural CAD software company, so their offices were pretty okay). It
was 4-6 people per room. In retrospect I wouldn't want that layout again, it
kills XFN cooperation, eg. you have to go to another room and potentially
knock just to talk to the UX or PM guy.

I prefer o.o. because it's better for fast moving, constantly changing teams
building product; everybody's on the same "floor", working on the same
product.

~~~
chris_7
Do you have a "shut up" rule, though? I have to endure shared music,
discussions about sportsball or TV shows, people making calls, etc. while
trying to use a debugger a meter away (pack 'em in!). I could possibly
tolerate on-topic discussions, but off-topic stuff belongs in a break room.

~~~
Maro
Office is for work not play. At the really good/successful companies there's
very strong work ethic, so people are not socializing on the floor, making
calls, listening to music without headphones. In that case I'd say you have a
culture/people management issue, not an office layout issue.

------
gdubs
Anyone wanting to dig deeper into some of this might be interested in reading
Susan Cain's "Quiet: The Power of Introverts in a World That Can't Stop
Talking". [1]

It was a paradigm shifting book for me, made me understand some people in my
life in profoundly new ways, and helped me discover stuff about my own
personality. It's particularly interesting to think about introversion /
extroversion in terms of managing energy levels.

1: [https://www.amazon.com/Quiet-Power-Introverts-World-
Talking/...](https://www.amazon.com/Quiet-Power-Introverts-World-
Talking/dp/0307352153)

~~~
brokenmachine
I will check out the book, but I don't know how it could help someone trapped
in a distracting open office hell.

Maybe it'd help the homicidal thoughts go away.

------
bane
I came from a world with shared offices and team rooms (about 10 to a room)
and found the team rooms the optimal way to work -- with the ability to dive
out into an office if you needed intense focus on something or privacy.

Open offices (note I'm meaning cubes here) can be done reasonably well, but I
think they need lots of small huddle rooms you can dive into for focus,
discussion and privacy and that everybody in your area of the open plan needs
to be on the same page for noise and behavior.

Where open plans seem to really fail is mixing different teams in the same
space and not providing _any_ personal space at all. The warehouse full of big
tables almost universally seem to be hated.

~~~
user5994461
Agree. Offices for small team are the optimal solutions.

Source: many years of experiences in open plan offices and team offices.

~~~
dasmoth
Do you have much experience of private offices?

~~~
user5994461
I have some, it's only okay if you work alone for an entire project (that's
rather uncommon). I don't mind being with 1-3 people in an office even if I
work alone, bigger office, nicer.

------
throw2016
Open office is about economics and limits choice. Privacy does not preclude
the freedom to socialize when required or work temporarily in common spaces
for some project. The other way there is no choice. Most of us who have been
to boarding schools have fond memories but that does not mean we prefer to
live in dorms our whole life.

Will the person negotiating deals or employee salaries be in a open office? No
because there are certain kind of jobs that require privacy.

Similarly creative thinking is not a group but solitary activity that requires
privacy and warrants private space and programming and creating things from
scratch is creative. Either the company does not perceive the work as creative
or fails to respect its employees work needs.

Usually these decisions are taken in arbitrary ways by a few folks in
management who hang on to their privacy. And once these decisons are made it's
difficult to reverse.

Theoretically in capitalism if workers prefer private cabins companies who
continue to offer them stand to attract a higher quality and volume of
candidates but in the real world even before you can exercise that 'capitalist
choice' its taken away from you by the race to the bottom, so you are
effectively left with no choice.

------
chrisbennet
_" We retain more information when we sit in one spot, says Sally Augustin, an
environmental and design psychologist in La Grange Park, Illinois. It’s not so
obvious to us each day, but we offload memories — often little details — into
our surroundings, she says.

These details — which could be anything from a quick idea we wanted to share
to a colour change on a brochure we’re working on — can only be recalled in
that setting."_

~~~
msie
That makes sense given the effectiveness of memory palaces.

------
christophilus
I've been working remotely for the past 2 years or so, and am _never_ going
back. If I really need to focus, phone and Slack are both off, and I stand at
my personal whiteboard and think. It's almost impossible (for me) to think
without quiet and guaranteed lack of interruption.

------
mti27
Open offices SUCK SUCK SUCK. The worst thing is when someone wants you to
answer a question which requires a few moments of concentrated research. So
then they stand there waiting on you but talking to the person in the next
cube about their weekend or the weather or whatever. You can't tell them to
leave because they are not in your office, but it's majorly distracting.

~~~
smnplk
this. Oh am I glad that I will never ever ever work in an open office again.

------
hasenj
I like open offices because I want to feel like I'm working with people, not
in solitary confinement.

When I'm alone in a private room, I'm usually playing; not working.

I find it incredibly difficult to get into working flow when in a private
space.

I'm sure I'm not the only one. That's why people go to cafes to work when they
have to work "from home".

~~~
BoorishBears
I think part of the difference for me as far as the atmosphere in a coffee
shop (for example) vs an open office is the office has voices you recognize
and listen to.

If a voice I recognized said something in the general drone of a coffee shop
I'd be momentarily distracted while I turned around to see where the voice
came from.

In my current open office I find myself working to filter out what people are
saying a lot more than I would in a setting with the same amount of noise, but
nothing concerning me.

------
Zenst
The workers have known this for eons and many issues from spread of illness
thru to lack of privacy for work projects, so much against it. Odd as when I
worked at the BBC they moved from a rather nice building with lots of office
space to some open plan nightmare and many left.

But the real teller is I have never ever in my entire 50 years of life met
anybody who actually likes open plan offices, ever! That right there says it
all for me.

------
ChuckMcM
I react to the headline in that I don't think open offices are "bad" for
people any more than coffee shops are. But I certainly resonate with the
notion that different people have different styles. My own story was going
from an office with a door at NetApp to a quad cube at Google. If there ever
was a place that could afford to give everyone an office (regardless of the
cost of real estate) it is Google but they wanted the socialization aspects.

My response was that I became able to completely ignore everything going on
around me when I was working. That was helpful for me, but perplexing for some
of my coworkers who could say something to me, mere feet away, and I would not
react at all because it literally hadn't actually entered my consciousness.
Basically I'm at the opposite end of the spectrum from the person who sits
there and tracks all 6 to 10 conversations going on around them in real time.
I find I can do that if I concentrate on it, but processing so much
information which is irrelevant to what I'm trying to get done really feels
like a waste.

------
adrianlmm
When the company I used to work with switched to an open Office layout it
didn't look like a big problem at that time, but after a year I became more
irritated and less happy, If I was at a very critical call with a customer the
phone rings, laughts and chats diverged my attention, with the time I quit for
other reasons, but open office have some influence in that desition.

------
sssilver
I do my best work after everyone has left and the floor is completely empty.

I hate distractions, and my brain is wired in a way where it processes every
word spoken by a human to somehow be more important than abstract thoughts
about an engineering problem.

I wish I had a quiet room with blank walls void of decorations, and sound
isolation. I'd be so much more productive.

But alas, that is not hip.

~~~
blowski
I think there's more to open plan offices than fashion. They are cheaper - you
can pack a lot more people into the same place.

If they're all juniors that's great. As you start hiring more seniors do you
give each of them an office? That changes office culture because now everyone
wants an office to feel important. Having worked in a few places hat went from
5-6 staff to more than a 100, I've seen how difficult these transitions can
be.

I agree that senior staff tend to be more productive in their own offices with
fewer distractions, though.

~~~
tinalumfoil
If a senior dev cost 100k and an office increases productivity by 10% the
office has to cost 10k for it not to be worth it. While I don't doubt

------
wakkaflokka
I'm in the corporate world, and my managers were thinking about jumping on the
open-office bandwagon (albeit a decade too late). I'm very glad it never
materialized, because I _love_ having my own cubicle without distraction.
Unlike my open lab in academia, where it was difficult to work because I could
hear the guy next to me eating nachos while I was trying to work on my thesis
project.

------
dx034
One recommendation for everyone who suffers in an open office: BrainFM.

Not affiliated with it, but saw it here on HN on a thread about music, tried
it out and I love it. I listen to it daily, have probably heard each track at
least a hundred times, but it still helps me to focus. With the right
headphones (isolating so that volume can be low), I can zoom out and ignore
everything around me. Haven't found any other music that can do that,
especially when I really have to focus (e.g. reading complicated texts).

Don't know if it really works or if it's just psychological, but I don't care
as long as it helps me. Made my life in the office much easier.

~~~
404-universe
I've found that
[http://musicforprogramming.net/](http://musicforprogramming.net/) is also
good working music, which I found from that same thread you mentioned.

------
WhiteSource1
People need focus and the ability to control (increase and decrease) their
stimulation. Open offices do not provide that and when people are distracted,
just trying to focus on focusing, it's hard to make memories.

------
Freak_NL
Researcher Theo Compernolle wrote about the open office in his book
_Brainchains_. To help anyone convince management and colleagues that the open
plan office creates an environment detrimental to our well-being, he has
published a free excerpt of his work:

[https://drive.google.com/file/d/0ByN-2IZSJqvxY0pyRnZhV0c0Qm8...](https://drive.google.com/file/d/0ByN-2IZSJqvxY0pyRnZhV0c0Qm8/view)

Useful if you are fighting for change in your work environment.

------
bobochan
I have a traditional office, but every day part of me misses being back in the
giant cube farm that I used to work in. I still remember counting six rows
down, then three blocks over, to get to the section of identical grey cubes
where I sat. I had a computer just powerful enough to run a 3270 terminal
emulator, a small bookcase, and a chair. What do I miss about that?

Any time that someone was not deep into a program they would stand up to
stretch their legs and you would see them over the top of the cube. That was
the time set aside where you could ask them questions about a project, talk
about last night's game, or make plans for lunch. Over the course of a day or
a week, you almost always had time to talk to everyone and it encouraged a
great atmosphere. We all knew what each other was working on, and everyone had
a sense of who was good at what when the chips were down and we needed to fix
something quickly.

Those cubes are different from what I have seen in a truly "open office," but
I would love to get back to that level of daily interaction. Productivity
aside, being isolated in an office all day is really soul numbing.

~~~
mixmastamyk
Why not walk around the office, sit in the commons with a laptop, collaborate
in a conference room, etc?

The office with a door is for when you need to focus, not meant to be a jail.

~~~
bobochan
Because then people say, "I stopped by your office and you were not there!" It
is a big campus so there is a benefit to people being able to track me down.

~~~
mixmastamyk
IM, email, calendar, mobile could help, no? If people are stopping by often,
perhaps you are not so isolated.

~~~
mixmastamyk
Just thought of something, a post-it on the door that says, "I'm in XYZ."

------
RUG3Y
I can fart in my office without bother anyone and I really like that.

~~~
tyfon
Until your manager comes on a surprise visit :)

------
g12mcgov
This reminds me of a lot of Stack Overflow's commitment to private offices,
which I read awhile back. They too have an interesting take on the anti-open
office idea. [https://stackoverflow.blog/2015/01/why-we-still-believe-
in-p...](https://stackoverflow.blog/2015/01/why-we-still-believe-in-private-
offices/)

------
andrei_says_
Anyone working in an open office knows about the noise, distractions,
interruption, attention fragmentation and unnerving lack of privacy.

Unfortunately, the office layout is determined by budget numbers related to
office layout only (not including "cost of lost productivity"), and by people
who more often than not do have their own offices.

------
ggame
The reduction in productivity is not a bug, it's a feature.

Your boss spends a lot of time in meeting justifying why he needs a bigger
headcount. Having more productive employees makes his job much harder.
Colloquially it's called 'Empire Building'

------
mmmBacon
I started a new job where I work in an open office. I don't really mind it. We
do have more open conversations about work and that's a good thing. These are
similar to hallway conversations I've had in other places.

When I want to crank I put headphones on and get some music going. I've always
done that though even when I had an office so it's not new for me.

My biggest peeve with the open office is that I have no room for storage. If
you work in HW there are these junk piles because there's no place to put
anything. I still use books as reference and there's no place to put them. I'm
not a neat freak but I can't stand the clutter.

------
chatwinra
I hate to be negative but this article is frustrating because it makes an
argument without backing it up with evidence that can be followed up by the
reader.

It makes claims such as 'it’s well documented that we rarely brainstorm
brilliant ideas ... in a crowd.' but doesn't provide any link to these
documents.

The only links it provides are ones to other BBC articles.

It also cites studies and references their data without providing a link to
them.

It's a shame as I'm sure there may be a strong case against open offices but
this is pretty lazy journalism and indicative of some major problems (in my
opinion, anyway) with how science is reported (and used) in online articles.

~~~
mixmastamyk
Agreed, it assumes everyone has read Peopleware, but most haven't.

------
dajohnson89
Frustration with open offices is perfectly understandable -- I work in an open
office and overall I would prefer to have my own office (most people would).

But the outrage about the trend towards open offices reeks of entitlement.
Think of the assembly line worker -- he/she has even less privacy. And don't
tell me that working on an assembly line isn't mentally exhausting. Try one
shift and let me know how that goes. Think cook in a shady restaurant, think
an illegal immigrant in San Antonio in July installing a new roof on
somebody's McMansion. THOSE are difficult working environments.

~~~
jrs235
I don't think the complaint is about difficult working environments but rather
non-conducive working environments for knowledge workers. Programmers need the
ability to focus and minimal distractions in order to keep the conceptual and
logical model of their work loaded in their head. Anything that causes a
momentary data dump and reboot is detrimental to their core function. A hot
roof in the summer for a roofer is expected. If that roofer has to think about
how to solve a [non standard] roofing issue while on the roof while thinking
about the entire building's (complex) roof and how his solution will affect
the other roofs he works on then I understand the complaint. And he should get
down off the roof and sit someplace where he can reason and think out a proper
solution with minimal distractions and external/physical stress.

------
FrancoDiaz
If I'm interested in a position, that's one of the first things I ask about.
If they're open and don't have alternative accommodations for people that
despise open office, I just pass.

------
tedmiston
> Mullenix’s own office has sensors, placed 10 feet apart, that can track
> noise, temperature and population levels. Staff can log on to an app and can
> find the quietest spot in the room.

This sounds awesome.

It would be really cool to have this information for the coffee shops around
town, similar to how Google tracks how busy a place is. IIRC, there was a
Microsoft Research project like this once that distributed the audio
collection over the microphones from smartphones present in a given place.

------
blunte
I knew this from years of experience, and I provided ample evidence (and
research) on this problem to executive management at companies I worked for.

The sad fact is that PHBs, even well-intentioned ones, simply do not know what
it's like to create multi-layer models in your mind and then develop from
those models. They hear the marketing guys bullshitting all day about clients
and thing that _that_ is work, progress.

In the end, it just means that the backbone of the modern company functions
more poorly, and that revenues are potentially lower than they could be. Maybe
the lower revenues are offset by the lower office rent costs; maybe the only
real loss is the happiness (and loyalty/tenure) of the thought workers of the
company.

This leads to another problem that we all suffer (via bugs, hacks, viruses,
and otherwise lack of software quality) - that people running companies really
have no concept what software is. I see no solution to this problem, since
ultimately even the companies started by geeks get absorbed by bigger
companies run by PHBs...

------
mti27
Oh and here's another time when they SUCK: If they're not part of the "office
culture" i.e. it's only IT who uses them. So, you have to play by both sets of
rules. Get used to continuous interruptions because you'll be branded "not a
team player" when you don't remove your headphones to say hi to everyone who
comes into your area!

------
dalyons
I personally love open offices. Collaboration benefits aside, I like people
and I'd go insane working in a silent solo prison every day (been there!). The
meme of "open offices are terrible for everyone and it's only evil management
that likes them" is bullcrap. Myself and a lot of other people I know prefer
them. Guess what, people are different!

~~~
geoka9
Just curious, do you ever need to be "in the zone" to get your work done? If
you do and you're distracted, is it hard for you to get back in the zone? Is
it hard to do several times an hour?

------
lacampbell
The only times I've been in an open office, it's been with people who were
answering phone calls all day. Wasn't a fan and my ears got sore form having
headphones on all the time.

I feel like sharing an office with a small handful of other devs could work.
But not with people who answer phones all day.

------
donarb
Joel Spoksky wrote about this multiple times on his blog, here's one of his
first over 10 years ago.

[https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2003/09/24/bionic-
office/](https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2003/09/24/bionic-office/)

------
curtis
I've worked a couple of jobs where I was working remote but the main office
was open plan. In these cases, it seemed like the open plan offices really did
help communication. Of course I was only there one week out of maybe every 6,
and it didn't matter that I didn't get that much regular work done when I was
in the office, since I was working from home the rest of the time.

I don't know if there's a reasonable compromise. You could have a team that
tries to get everybody into the office one week out of every three and where
most people work remote the rest of the time. I don't know how well that would
work, and I don't know if it would be worth the trouble, but it seems to me
like it would be better than open plan all the time or remote all the time.

------
Corrado
OK, I think the perfect solution would be a huge open area plus some other
specialty areas (conference rooms, kitchen, bathrooms, etc.) The difference is
an unending supply of something like Everblocks[0]. That way, management could
have all the space they wanted but you could still build your own personal
domain. And with different types of blocks (switches, display, whiteboard,
etc.) you could customize your area with exactly how you, or your team, wants
it. Heck, you could even change it every week if you wanted to. :)

[0] [http://www.everblocksystems.com/](http://www.everblocksystems.com/)

------
jim-jim-jim
The overall din of my open office doesn't bother me so much, but people
talking to themselves under their breath as they work the copy machine
certainly does. I don't know why 90% of my co-workers do this.

~~~
brokenmachine
This is so true.

So many people just can't seem to think (or read) without talking out loud.

------
lightedman
My open office is GREAT for my health. I don't know of any other open office
where you climb literal mountains.

------
eicnix
I like the solution from Microsoft for this problem in their new Munich
building: They have seperatr spaces for intense work without any distraction,
areas like the most common open offices and areas for group work and meetings.
Each area is its own floor and your are free to move between the areas.

------
bambax
I hate open offices with a passion, for reasons well explained in the article
(and many others that regularly pop up here).

However, many companies that have open offices enjoyed an incredible success
and some even achieved world domination (Facebook). How is that even possible
is what I'd really like to know.

~~~
paulryanrogers
"However, many companies that have open offices enjoyed an incredible success
and some even achieved world domination (Facebook). How is that even possible
is what I'd really like to know."

Many civilizations also thrived on the backs of slave labor. We don't look to
slavery as the way forward today.

That being said, some people prefer the social aspects of working physically
close to others. Ideally companies will provide what works best for each
employee. At the end of the day business is both by and for people.

EDIT: Corrected typo

------
OJFord
Amusing to think that this was probably* written from an open office.

*I used to commute through the BBC's White City campus; visible through large glass windows were open offices everywhere. (They were essentially open even to the outside!)

------
douchelord
This article made me laugh as ive often worked really late at BBCs very own
broadcasting house because it's far too loud and distracting for me during the
day.

------
louprado
If we could all raise our standards on workplace manners _open offices are
good for us_.

PSA of the day: Please train yourself to fully exhale right before sneezing.

------
pmcollins
You could just wear ear muffs and mostly solve the noisy office problem. I
wear them when I'm not listening to music and have improved my productivity
and happiness at work. (And this is at a cubicle office which is still quite
noisy.)

[http://www.3m.com/3M/en_US/company-
us/all-3m-products/~/3M-P...](http://www.3m.com/3M/en_US/company-
us/all-3m-products/~/3M-PELTOR-Optime-105-Over-the-Head-Earmuffs-H10A-10-EA-
Case?N=5002385+8709322+8711405+3294758533&rt=rud)

~~~
ionised
You also have visual distractions in an open office.

I've just had at least a dozen people walk past my line of sight in the last
minute and and it's distracting as hell for me.

~~~
ThrustVectoring
It's not just visual. You're often seated at a desk that's physically
connected to another person's. I've been annoyingly distracted by the person
across from me pulling on the desk to move their chair around, shaking my
keyboard and monitors.

------
ThomPete
Open offices can be bad for you just like closed offices can.

It mostly IMO depends on the size and the layout.

Most places have both open spaces and places you can go to work in quite.

------
devilirium
I think a lot of us needs to think about how fortunate we are working ona
field that is our passion and not standing in a pile of shit and sweat all day
long. Having open offices that makes communication easier means that you could
communicate your need for no distruption or talk with your mates who are
loafing around and brainstorm about future problems. If you have the brain
capacity to focus on ambient noises, then I guess you are not focusing enough
and just whining about your current situation instead of doing what matters.
I've seen workers who couldn't hear anything since they were too immersed. I
myself use earphones when I want to get into it and close out the entire
world. If you think that it's a real issue and don't see the value of savings
and closeness to each other, then maybe it's time to quit your current
workplace.

------
ape4
I wonder if companies would consider segregated music and quiet open offices.

------
ericls
Jobs are bad for us

------
known
Open offices are worse for programmers

------
grokas
"Nearly 50% of people working in open offices are dissatisfied with their
sound privacy"

Should be:

Nearly 50% of people working in open offices don't have good over-ear
headphones.

~~~
kdamken
No. Fuck that. I don't normally curse on here, but I think it's warranted.

I own a great pair of over ear, noise cancelling headphones. But I shouldn't
have to risk damaging my hearing because management thinks having developers
sit in the middle of a bunch of salespeople and project managers is a good
idea.

~~~
chinathrow
A million time this. Ear damage accumulates over time. I am sure that
excessive headphone usage at work will be number one reason of hearing loss in
a few years.

Unless we turn things around.

~~~
daemoncoder
One doesn't actually have to listen to anything through the headphones. I've
used noise cancelling without music in the past.

I also have a set of earbud rubber thingies that have been stoppered with hot
glue and a short piece of hollow lolly stick. Those fit better (don't feel
itchy after long periods) and provide more isolation than the squishy yellow
ear protectors.

~~~
Arizhel
Nose canceling headphones don't work for blocking conversations.

~~~
chinathrow
Not all, but some achieve very nice results.

E.g. Bose Quiet Comfort 20 are indeed good also for blocking more quiet
conversations.

[https://www.amazon.com/Bose-QuietComfort-Acoustic-
Cancelling...](https://www.amazon.com/Bose-QuietComfort-Acoustic-Cancelling-
Headphones/dp/B00X9KV0HU)

~~~
Arizhel
The only way NC headphones block conversations is because they are also
acoustically isolating. That is, they would block conversations even with the
NC feature turned off. The headphones you link to look like this: they're
basically earplugs with headphones built in. Earplugs block conversations
because they physically block sound waves from entering your ears. The same
principle works with the big over-the-ear cans. It's not the NC feature that's
helping, it's the fact that the headphones themselves are isolating your ears
from the outside world.

~~~
chinathrow
I own them so I can assure that having them plugged in without NC does not
block conversation voices. Turn them on and they are gone or way quieter.

Edit due to downrate: I own or owned multiple over ear medium size NC models
and the mentioned in'ear ones win by large.

~~~
Arizhel
Hmm, interesting. I wonder if it's because they fit in the ear, rather than
sitting outside like more traditional headphones. This would allow them to
cancel noise at higher frequencies since the driver-to-eardrum distance is
smaller.

Have you used other, more traditional can-type NC headphones? Can you compare?

~~~
chinathrow
I edited my previous comment to address your questions.

