
Chinese restaurants are closing – many owners are glad - pseudolus
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/12/24/upshot/chinese-restaurants-closing-upward-mobility-second-generation.html
======
zdragnar
The two relevant quotes to explain the headline:

> “These people (Chinese immigrants) did not come to be chefs; they came to be
> immigrants, and cooking was the way they made a living.”

> “These people came to cook so their children wouldn’t have to, and now their
> children don’t have to.”

Basically, a story of the American dream, not too dissimilar to my own
(european) family's story. Immigrants take on difficult work and long hours to
provide their kids with opportunities they themselves didn't have. The natural
result is they age out and their kids take on different occupations, the line
of work they did changes to accommodate fewer people doing it.

~~~
tzs
That reminds me of something John Adams, second President of the United
States, wrote in a letter to his wife in May, 1780:

> The science of government it is my duty to study, more than all other
> sciences; the arts of legislation and administration and negotiation ought
> to take the place of, indeed exclude, in a manner, all other arts. I must
> study politics and war, that our sons may have liberty to study mathematics
> and philosophy. Our sons ought to study mathematics and philosophy,
> geography, natural history and naval architecture, navigation, commerce and
> agriculture in order to give their children a right to study painting,
> poetry, music, architecture, statuary, tapestry and porcelain.

~~~
kortilla
The problem with that mindset is that once all of the experts in government
die off, then the ignorant descendants run into a mass Chesterton’ fence
problem and start removing important bits.

~~~
scholia
From a polemic in The Spectator:

"There is a huge cast of well-paid people, from management consultants to
economic advisers, whose entire salaries are earned by ripping out
Chesterton’s fences. Interestingly, these are mostly male-dominated industries
(men are more prone to narrow systematising than women). Silicon Valley, which
is overwhelmingly male, is possibly the worst offender of all. The very fact
that a fence is over ten years old, requires atoms in its manufacture or
creates employment for human beings is reason enough for them to want to get
rid of it."

[https://www.spectator.co.uk/2016/09/chestertons-fence-and-
th...](https://www.spectator.co.uk/2016/09/chestertons-fence-and-the-idiots-
who-rip-it-out/)

~~~
barrkel
And of course the fence he's talking about is print advertising. He's pretty
selective about what he calls fences, though fences are a universal argument
against change.

------
lordnacho
My parents' generation came to the west and ran restaurants. Several of my
aunts and uncles have been doing this for years. I grew up in these sorts of
shops. You can't do it anymore.

The 1980s don't seem that long ago, but back then there was not nearly the
variety of foreign cuisines that there are now in the west. At the time you
could still conceivably go to a Chinese restaurant for an "experience meal"
where you would either enjoy some slightly different cooking, or bring a date
or business connection. It even felt right that the owner's kids were running
around, and there were kitsch pictures from China on the walls.

Back then the entry cost was very very low. You had either only family or
other recent immigrant staff. You'd spend nearly nothing on the interior.

Nowadays that style of restaurant serves a very small segment of the market.
Basically, it's the people in the area - not the town centre - that don't want
to cook that night and didn't have Chinese the night before. They don't care
about the decor, many of them do takeaway. They don't care about authenticity
either. And they are well aware that this style of food is unhealthy in large
quantities.

If you're going to open a restaurant these days, it needs a degree of
slickness. People expect it, heck even I expect it. You can't have a bunch of
spelling mistakes on your self-printed menus. You can't be showing tourist
quality photos of the food, with plastic place mats and different cobbled
together chairs. Plus people now care not only about general healthiness but
also specific things like allergies and intolerances that your foreign chef
might find hard to communicate about.

The competitive landscape is also changed completely. You're not competing
with just other mom and pop stores. There's not only McDonald's, which was
always a thing, but actual Chinese food chains that do what you do, better.

Finally, I don't know anyone who actively desired for their kids to take over.
If the family business was a global shipping company, sure. But not the
bottom-of-the-pile restaurant, surely. Having said that, one of my cousins did
build and sell a restaurant, having made the observations I've written about
here.

~~~
adventured
The last place in the US that I've seen where you can still soundly do that
type of Chinese restaurant, is in small towns / cities, under 10k-15k people
roughly. The expectations are much lower there and people are happy to have
variety in most any form.

You have to get under the Chipotle line approximately in terms of population
required to support that type of chain. The trade-off of course is potentially
less volume (although also less competition).

------
yding
Chinese-American restaurants are declining as Americans get more adventurous
with their eating. There are more choices beyond a burger, pizza, and Egg Foo
Young these days.

From just personal experience over the last two decades, the number of
"authentic" Chinese restaurants has increased a lot in most of the places I've
lived. So has the number of Thai/Korean/Japanese restaurants run by Chinese
owners, as more savvy Chinese restauranteurs seek out higher margins.

~~~
throw_776435
From what I understand, the Chinese Exclusion Act is one of the big reasons
why Chinese food is more Americanized compared to other Asian cuisine.

The Chinese in the US at the time had to tailor their dishes for American
tastebuds.

Previous Chinese immigrants were mainly from Southern China, where the cuisine
is more rice based. The more recent Chinese immigrants come from everywhere,
so you’ll get people from Northern China, where the cuisine is more wheat
based. There’s even some Chinese dishes that uses goat milk and cheese in
their dishes.

This might be a bit off topic now, but after watching Watchmen recently and
learning about the Tulsa race riots, I was surprised by how much of US history
I wasn’t taught. For example, I was surprised by how involved Chinese
immigrants were in American history and learned of some of the more tragic
events like the 1871 Chinese massacre in Los Angeles.

------
nneonneo
Not wholly related, but interesting: Szechuan (Sichuan) food, which is
probably one of the more popular Chinese varieties in the US, has been
decidedly non-authentic for decades due to the omission of huajiao (Sichuan
peppercorns), which were illegal to import for decades up to 2004 and
restricted until 2017. Only since 2017 have they been fully unrestricted;
imports will likely rise over the next while.

Huajiao is very unique among Chinese food ingredients. It is the so-called
"numbing pepper", which produces a mild numbing feel on the lips and (in my
opinion) enhances the spiciness considerably. It's really unfortunate that
Americanized Sichuan food has had to do without this spice for nearly 50
years.

If you're a fan of spicy food, give real Sichuan food (with the huajiao
peppercorns) a try sometime - you might be very surprised at the difference.

~~~
andybak
Interesting. UK Chinese restaurants used to be mainly Cantonese and spiciness
wasn't something I associated with Chinese food. (I'm talking about the 90's
or so - I'm in my late 40s)

I've recently become enamoured of Szechuan food and the places near to me seem
reasonably authentic judging my the unfamiliar ingredients and the
predominantly Chinese clientele.

And the food is spicy and numbing. I believe the combination is called "Mala"
meaning "Hot + cold" which describes it well. Szechuan peppers don't provide
heat - they do something very strange to one's taste receptors. Chewing on one
is a very peculiar experience a bit like eating something akin to savoury
popping candy with a kind of menthol cooling plus a kind of "citrus on
steroids" feeling.

~~~
jelliclesfarm
Yes..it’s called neuralogical dissonance. It tricks the brain into thinking
that the red chilies are spicier than they really are..usually there is a
ratio to red Chilli Pepper and Sichuan pepper for the Mala effect.

It is a numbing or tingling effect. It makes us think that the
tingling/numbing is due to spice/heat scoville level. This in turn starts a
cascade of other symptoms that is involuntary and usually associated with too
much spicy heat in the food..like sweating or increased heart rate or eyes
watering etc. in pale skinned diners, it makes them really red in the cheeks
and fully flushed as tho they are eating Chilli peppers at a very high
scoville rating.

The interesting thing is that the numbing sensation ‘hijacks’ the neural
feedback to the brain which releases a flood of endorphins because there is a
cognitive dissonance..because heat/spice level is translated as pain in the
brain.

It’s the neatest culinary hack. I used to be a chef before I drifted into
farming. I take great pleasure in demonstrating this. Another one is Japanese
Sansho pepper tree. Also from South America, spilanthese ..these button like
flowers(they look like buds..they lack petals). do the same thing. It is also
known as toothache plant as its used by herbalists for numbing of the mouth
for dental pain/toothaches. I grew them in my farm for some years (I was
selling to herbalists) and it was always a hit with school kids on farm tour.

------
taobility
IMHO, as a new Chinese immigrant, I don't like those old Chinese restaurants,
as they are not authentic but more Americanized. And now as more and more new
Chinese immigrants, which are not living in Chinatown any more, they are
prefer more authentic Chinese dishes, which demands new restaurants operated
by new owners from China.

~~~
no-s
IMHO, as an American native, I like the cultural experience of americanized
Chinese cuisine as adapted to locally available ingredients, especially in the
southwest US (with it's subtle leavening of Chinese culture dating from the
railroad era). We often make hot chile oil with dried chile pequin or dried
chile negro (minus the seeds). Achiote is a great addition to the 5 spice, and
with no Sichuan peppercorn available I often just add whatever dry spicy chili
I have available (i.e. the pequinos) rather than substitute the ubiquitously
mediocre black pepper. The bay leaves I get in the Chinese market are from the
same source as the Mexican grocery.

------
neonate
[http://archive.md/K22ek](http://archive.md/K22ek)

------
sysbin
I enjoyed Western Chinese food growing up as a kid. Sadly it seems for me that
a specific dish can really taste different depending on which restaurant you
pick for the day. It can actually be disappointing when ordering a certain
dish and the taste isn't similar as another restaurant.

------
bryanmgreen
Yet in Scotland, there is a Chinese takeway shop in basically every town, even
if there are only 200 citizens.

By establishment numbers alone I'd say it's the most popular food group.

~~~
9nGQluzmnq3M
Same in Australia, but they're clearly a dying breed. They still putter on in
the countryside and in far-flung suburbs where they and fast food are the only
choice in town, but they're already extinct in the city centers (which have
plenty of "real" Chinese options) and disappearing from gentrifying suburbs as
well. The rise of food delivery has also likely been a net negative for them,
since suddenly there are so many other options for delivery.

------
TrackerFF
Back in the 70s and 80s, we got a lot of refugees and immigrants from the
middle-east and south Asia. A ton of these basically did what the Chinese did
- opened up restaurants (Kebab shops), barber shops, ethnic supermarkets, etc.
Or they took on the jobs they could find, and stuck with 'em.

Modern immigrants and refugees, however, seem to have more education from
their home countries. We got a wave of Syrian immigrants a couple of years
ago, and many of these had degrees and careers before having to leave.

Now, a couple of years later, it seems that many of these are getting settled
in with professional careers here.

It obviously depends on the country you come from, and your background, but I
think the days of the classic immigrants are starting to end. 30-40 years ago
some poor teacher or engineer pretty much HAD to start their own shop, to make
a decent living - but now they can _relatively_ fluidly continue with their
careers - and thus get more freedom to pursue their own things, rather than
getting pigeonholed into something else.

------
perl4ever
Where I live (which is in NY but not near NYC), there seem to be increasing
numbers of Chinese restaurants which are more upscale, have regional cuisine,
and generally don't resemble the stereotype of an American Chinese restaurant.
It probably is a result of an influx of Chinese students and tech workers, and
another thing that seems to be a trend is several of the Indian restaurants
have added Indian-Chinese fusion dishes.

------
ggm
Another nail in the wall of Jewish-American Christmas tradition.

~~~
hinkley
In this town of 200k we went out for sushi yesterday. From what I could see
from the street corner, it may have been the only thing open in that whole
neighborhood. This morning I was wondering about the religious cross-section
among the employees. There are other faiths besides Judaism that don't
celebrate little baby Jesus.

The old people buffet and the movie theater were the only things open in the
mall.

------
samspenc
The article correctly calls out the long hours (and weekends) worked by many
restaurant owners, many of whom prefer their offspring get well-paid office
jobs and avoid the life the parents had to live to make the restaurant
business work.

However, I would like to posit that there are a couple of other points that
make it impossible to operate a profitable restaurant today, especially in
large cities: (a) ridiculously high rents (b) increased regulation.

~~~
Pfhreak
It's impossible to operate a profitable restaurant? I mean, that's obviously
false.

But let's say you meant difficult rather than impossible. Rising rents make
things more expensive for sure, but regulation? Which regulation? I worked in
a restaurant for years and I can't think of a regulation I had to deal with
that wasn't about food safety and employee protections...

~~~
unishark
It's not obviously false. If an old first-generation immigrant running a hole-
in-the-wall downtown somewhere cannot attract the number of people at the
prices they need them to pay in order to cover the bills, their business folds
and there's nothing they can do about it. Maybe you can call on your buddies
to front you a few million to make the necessary upgrades to stay competitive
as downtown gentrifies, but not everyone can.

~~~
Pfhreak
> there are a couple of other points that make it impossible to operate a
> profitable restaurant today,

This says there are _zero_ profitable restaurants today, which, yes, is
obviously false. I can think of several restaurants that do, in fact, turn a
profit.

------
onetimemanytime
another interesting thing: NYT mentioned the Chinese Exclusion
Act...apparently around 300 MILLION Chinese were in China in the 1850's...and
just 23 million "Americans" in USA.

Would America had looked more like China if no check were placed on
immigration from one particularly huge country? Sure travel costs, but as long
as fees were paid via labor, people would have financed it. And the word would
have spread that there's money to be made in USA...

~~~
Gigablah
> Would America had looked more like China if no check were placed on
> immigration from one particularly huge country?

You mean, like the United Kingdom?

~~~
simonsarris
Note that the US is a much more "German" country than English or even UKish,
by numbers. Ben Franklin even wrote about it, wishing that the German and
Swedish immigrant numbers were decreased in favor of UKish immigrants, noting
that their numbers were eclipsing the English.

Before world war 1, lots of the USA spoke German, some places much more than
English. Then sentiments... changed, towards anglicizing the country.

------
ericmcer
Could it also have to do with a more health conscious population? Many people
actively try to avoid sugar, tons of carbs, and tons of unhealthy fats.
Chinese food is loaded with all of these.

~~~
sk5t
Well, do you see McDonalds, KFC, Taco Bell, Popeye's, Olive Garden, and
millions of chain and local pizza shops going out of business?

~~~
yding
Even in the medium to high end, the biggest trend for restaurants in the last
decades is the dominance of the burger, not exactly a health food.

To be honest, most Chinese restaurants probably serve more vegetables (and
roughly the same amount of fat and carbs) than a meal at a non-Chinese
restaurant at the same price point.

------
Animats
Well, of course. SF's Chinatown, mentioned in the article, is stuck in the
1950s. Where's today's China? A mini-Huaqiangbei would be more useful. Offices
of Shenzhen companies looking for products to make and connections to US
markets. 24 hour PC fabs. Dev kits for the latest SOICs. Co-working spaces for
hardware. More drones, less dim sum.

~~~
nneonneo
That’s Shenzhen - not all of China. Food is still a huge part of the culture,
and China is still home to vast numbers of restaurants.

