

How to Save $5000 on Your Logo - cjwestbrook
http://jimleff.blogspot.com/2009/04/how-to-save-5000-on-your-logo.html
Entrepreneur, author, and musician Jim Leff argues that creative types aren't always that creative and that it's better to come up with a rough idea and have them tweak it than to go to them with a blank slate.
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Gibbon
As a designer, there's nothing I hate more than clients who come to me with
preconceived notions of what they want or need, nevermind actual sketches of
their "vision". It often leaves little opportunity to improve on the idea, or
a hell of a lot of nudging to get them to accept something better.

My last logo job had about a hundred sketches, further refined to a dozen
candidates, from which I presented the top three. The idea that an
artist/designer/musician can't be called upon to think up fresh ideas is
laughable. Any truly competent creative can pump out ideas a fast as they can
draw/write/play.

~~~
Zev
Unfortunately, for every competent artist/designer/musician out there, there's
at least one (and most likely more) hack that can't cut it and isn't competent
at their job. And for someone who's job doesn't deal with what is more
traditionally thought of as needing creativity, it can be hard to distinguish
the competent people who are good at their job from the hacks who imitate.

~~~
Gibbon
You find competent designers the same way you find competent electricians,
surgeons or programmers.

Ask around, get recommendations, look at their portfolios and talk to them
about their methods and processes.

~~~
Zev
True, but: If you don't know what to look for, what good does talking looking
at prior work or talking shop with them do? For all you know, they're
completely making everything up as you go along in the conversation.

Getting recommendations from people is the best thing to do, but people are
much more likely to need a dentist or an electrician then a writer or musician
for something. So solid recommendations may be slightly harder to get.

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mcav
If the logo pictured therein represents the mockup he gave to the designer, I
hope he'd be prepared to have it entirely modified or discarded. The logo is
busy, repetitive, and difficult to digest.

Designers, musicians, and others make a living at their craft because they're
_good at_ what they do (ideally). Logo designers have spent hours learning
what's good and what isn't.

I wouldn't want someone who has a "compositional idea" to come up to me (as a
piano player myself) and ask me to morph their idea into a masterpiece unless
they fully understood that I might change their idea entirely, or that their
idea might not even be feasible.

Same goes for startups -- you can't present an idea to a few developers and
expect them to roar back with a great startup. It takes persistence,
experience, and inspiration to create something good. But inspiration itself
comes from having experience at a craft. Not all inspiration is created equal.

~~~
cjwestbrook
Let me argue the other side for the sake of discussion. Designers, musicians,
etc. make their living because they're good at what they do, but what is it
that they do?

Designers are good at playing with visuals, writers are good at playing with
words, musicians are good at setting harmony to a melody. Sometimes, those
people are good at creating something from nothing, but it's a different
animal.

Having worked as a writer, I liked starting from scratch, but I also
appreciated when the CEO had a clear vision and story of what his company was
about that I could run with. Many great works of music are derivative of a
theme from another composer.

Jim's point seems to be that giving them something to react to and work with
is a huge shortcut with little or no loss.

~~~
mcav
Sure, something's better than nothing.

That's what brainstorming is all about -- creating ideas without having any
expectation that any particular idea will succeed. Starting with something
might spur an idea forward, or it might not. An initial idea's good; multiple
ideas are better. As long as the person understands that collaborating with an
expert will necessitate change, perhaps back-and-forth consultation, etc.,
until a good, agreeable conclusion is reached.

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ja27
I've seen people get great-looking logo designs for $300 using
<http://99designs.com>

I'm sure it pisses off $5000/logo designers as much as iStockphoto pisses off
people that used to make a good living from stock photography, but welcome to
the 21st century.

~~~
Gibbon
Spec work sites like 99designs are ripe with stolen illustrations from stock
sites.

Should you ever get caught with a logo using stolen works, you're setting
yourself up for some really hefty fees regardless of where you obtained the
work. This isn't conjecture, it's happened before:

[http://www.thelogofactory.com/logo_blog/index.php/anti-
spec-...](http://www.thelogofactory.com/logo_blog/index.php/anti-spec-work-
parable/)

~~~
jcl
That's a great article. (The word is "rife", btw.)

As the article hints, it's a problem of economics. With spec work, the artist
only gets paid on a few works out of many. To make many works and still earn a
living wage, the artist must make each work with a fraction of the resources
usually allocated to a professional work -- which on average can't compete
with stolen works produced with more resources.

If spec work paid more, real artists might be able to compete -- but the only
reason people want spec work is because it is cheaper... in the short term at
least.

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moe
Interesting how he accompanies his text with one of the worst logos I have
seen in a while.

~~~
slig
I did't catch that up too, but after he says:

"Nope, wasn't "implying" that! In fact, a careful read would have indicated
the Chowhound logo was NOT created according to this advice. It was, in fact,
done by a pro with vast experience, "condensation" or not."

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mahmud
Get a good designer and trust his/her intuition. A client of mine once paid
for a logo and 10 days later got two squiggly lines back. How underwhelming!
We kept it and sent for the letterheads and other office supplies to be
printed. When they came, the thing looked JUST right on paper. Nice, crisp and
to the point (we didn't know the logo went into a certain area on paper, it
wasn't centered like in our printout.)

One logo might look OK on a printout, but imagine being in an office where
nearly everything has that logo? The two Squiggly lines had _space_ around
them and stood out. Anything meatier and we would have gone nuts. Looked
gorgeous on their custom lamps too; they had reading lamps made of a murky
glass bowl, except the logo area was see through. The whole thing just looked
pro.

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mattmaroon
Just go to logoworks, plunk down $400, get a pretty decent one, call it a day.

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cwilson
Any designer worth his salt is going to spend some time going through a
discovery process with you. This is where he or she would find out exactly
what you are thinking and then translate that to good design. You may think
this ugly ass dog looks good, but I can promise pretty much no one else does,
so you're doing your brand and yourself an injustice to pretend you're the
expert, when you're obviously not.

I am constantly baffled by designers and developers not understanding or
appreciating each others craft.

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marthacom
Wow Jim, harsh for you. I've almost always have had great experience with
designers as long as the "front load" is good --what you want in
concept/brand. I wouldn't presume, though I have other skills, do to what they
do.

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cjwestbrook
I'm not sure whether or not I agree with this, but it's thought provoking.
Interested in what others think.

