
Show HN: Anonymous messaging with a 1km radius - theveloped
http://www.zonemessenger.com/
======
A1kmm
If it is exactly 1 km you could triangulate to find someone's location.

A program to do that would do a bisection search along a line (faking
coordinates for the location of the device) to find the point on the line
where you transition to seeing the person's messages. Then, repeat along other
two lines in different directions. Each transition point gives a circle of 1
km radius on which the person is present, and the one point shared by all
three circles is their location.

This could be mitigated by rounding off coordinates to be coarse enough that
it doesn't give their precise location before calculating the distance.

~~~
theveloped
Due to the fact that distance matching is done server side the application
doesn't have any knowledge with regard to distance. The only knowledge one has
is whether or not one receives messages from an other user.

Using triangulation to pinpoint an other users location would therefore
require to move in and out of range (while the targeted user is continuously
sending messages). Thus significantly more difficult than if the actual
distance measure was depicted in the UI or leaked elsewhere.

Finally closing the API to outside requests limits the ease with which the
above could be automated. Any idea's for further improving these security
measures are most welcome!

~~~
bo1024
I can't tell how it works from the site, but a good approach is to randomize
the distance threshold a bit each time. For example: if users are within 1km,
always connect; if more than 2km apart, never connect; 1.xkm apart, connect
with probability x.

That kind of thing combined with some rate limits (how often one can attempt
to connect to a user) should be effective.

(edit) Actually, I think I like mseebach's suggestion even more: For each
user, pick a random location about 100m away from them, then pretend they're
there until they've moved far enough away, then repeat.

~~~
civilian
Heh, it's like salting their location.

~~~
yarou
Believe it or not, but this is exactly what the Chinese government mandates.
It's known as China shifting[0], and can cause quite a lot of headaches.

[0]
[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Restrictions_on_geographic_d...](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Restrictions_on_geographic_data_in_China#The_China_GPS_shift_problem)

------
mgallowa
I founded an anonymous social media platform in the past. It can be a real
pain because once identity/accountability is removed, people tend to act very
poorly. On paper, I like your idea of helping people to form risk-free
connections, but it is very possible for your platform to spin out of your
control. The small radius location nature of your app will likely mean a lot
of negative press and/or police inquiries about stalking, harassment, threats,
bulling, maybe even rape or murder in the extreme.

Not trying to be negative; I know your intentions are good, but be please be
prepared. When the police call you in the middle of the night, and they will,
make sure you can provide whatever information you can to identify the users.
I am actually surprised you would be able to get into the Apple store without
being able to do so.

~~~
fatdog
Authorities of all sorts love the bully narrative because it legitimizes their
demands for compliance. Social media is undermining to them because people
don't want to be supervised.

The real reason social media sites die without moderation is not because it
alienates people who take bullying, it is that when there is no way to become
a moderator, people seek status and power elsewhere. Reddit survives because
it is a status pyramid scheme. HN survives because of similar aspiration to be
seen as that smart person in front of a VC audience, a kind of Enders Game
fantasy.

Facebook and Twitter are waning not because of trolls, but because they have
signaled a nannying supervisory role that reduces overall user optionality,
and takes away the thing that drew people in in the first place: Hope.

~~~
narrowrail
If any of what you claim is true, I am an idiot and you are a genius.

>when there is no way to become a moderator, people seek status and power
elsewhere

This is such an odd way to look at the world, I would need quite a bit more
explanation. Not everyone is ambitious and competitive.

>HN survives because of similar aspiration to be seen as that smart person in
front of a VC audience

Many of us (you included) participate here without any connection to our
'real' identities.

>Facebook and Twitter are waning not because of trolls, but because they have
signaled a nannying supervisory role

I haven't seen this study, and my own anecdotal evidence says the novelty is
wearing off.

~~~
fatdog
I regret to say I might have some bad news for you.

However, not everyone is ambitious and competitive, but not everyone uses
social media. They do seek a sense of approval (or attention), even if it is
defracted via a pseudonym. Most social studies are irreproducible bunk anyway.

Our 'real' identities are but a hash away, where you give me a place to
contact you and tell you the contents of this sha1 sum:
b967696ff8376ccd0feb6170b469e23588d702bd . If you wanted to get fancy, we
could start by agreeing on a modulus and a base....

------
smnscu
Great work! Congrats on finishing a side project, that's the hardest part. :)
I look forward to seeing it on the Play Store.

~~~
golanggeek
I agree. That is the hardest part

------
theveloped
Let me know what you guys think. The app was made to get people talking again
to the people around them. I threw in automatically generated anonymous
nicknames to lower the initial barrier a bit.

Any advise on how to market/keep people engaged are most welcome.

~~~
irq-1
Nice project. I'd suggest adding a like/ignore option to anonymous users.

Also, don't miss this comment
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12804222](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12804222)

~~~
theveloped
There is a small cross in the corner of messages. The underlying menu allows
for both reporting/blocking of a particular user.

------
elaus
How does this work if a person that is 500m away from me is currently chatting
with someone 1.2km away… will it seem to me like that person is talking to
himself (because his chat partner is out of my reach)?

~~~
wccrawford
I played a game that had communication like this, and the conversations were
often quite odd because of it, hearing half-conversations a fair bit of the
time.

And relaying messages to people further away... Though it wasn't anonymous,
and people knew where to tell people to send the messages towards.

~~~
KarenWint
Looks like it is from a rpg book, not a computer game. My first guess was
GURPS by Steve Jackson Games (General Universal Roleplaying System) - but I'm
leaning towards one of the oldest roleplaying games (which AFAIK has been
"computerized" several times): Traveller.

The "tech level" indicates which level of technology is needed for a
particular piece of equipment to be available and/or normal (won't get you
burned at the stake for using "magic") - in Traveller it is used to label
different worlds in the universe AFAIK - with GURPS it also extends to cross-
dimensinal travel, alternate realities, time travel etc.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traveller_%28role-
playing_game...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traveller_%28role-
playing_game%29) [http://unblockedallgames.com/unblocked-games/happy-
wheels](http://unblockedallgames.com/unblocked-games/happy-wheels)

~~~
wccrawford
The game I was talking about was DragonRealms. It's definitely a computer
game.

------
ToasterOven
I put a decent amount of work into something similar and had a fairly polished
mobile app with a good number users in a few concentrated communities using
it. And it was a disaster.

Anonymity plus a shared reference point of being near each other (mine was
400ft) produced either random attempts at discussion that never matured into a
conversation, or focused vitriol at real people.

We ended up discontinuing the app as it was hard to overcome the double
network effect (needing people you actually want to chat with, and needing
them to be nearby), and the only times where it did was because of a pretty
reprehensible use case.

------
Johnny555
How anonymous can a service be that sends messages through a central server
and uses your phone's GPS to know where you are at all times? You're only
anonymous to each other, but the server in the middle knows all.

When I saw the headline, I thought this used some sort of ad-hoc Wifi network
with MAC spoofing and couldn't figure out how they got 1km of range.

~~~
andrewstuart2
GPS + Tower location + SRC/DEST IP + MEID, etc.

The metadata is the problem for _true_ anonymity, not the amount of
information that individual users can see, or that the server stores in its
database.

------
Freak_NL
The about, privacy, and terms links are all dead. Is this an open protocol/api
or a closed environment?

It looks like a commercially backed app. What is the business model here? Paid
access or advertising?

~~~
theveloped
The "privacy"
([http://www.zonemessenger.com/privacy](http://www.zonemessenger.com/privacy))
and "terms"
([http://www.zonemessenger.com/terms](http://www.zonemessenger.com/terms))
should give you two static pdf's. On my side it's only the "about" link that
is dead (will be my personal website). If "privacy"/"terms" really don't work
on your side let me know!

As of now there is no commercial backing what so ever. It's mealy a side-
project that finally got finished. And for now there is also monetizing scheme
implemented.

~~~
annnnd
Privacy:

    
    
        Over Quota
    
        This application is temporarily over its serving quota. Please try again later.

~~~
rkangel
Ah, the old Hacker News death hug.

------
NicoJuicy
You could fork it and theme it with Pokémon Go ;)

Fyi, i ran a facebook group with 15 k. people for Belgium. The #2. A little
bit late to the party of location based messaging concering Pokémon though ;)

------
anotheryou
Can you make the zone adaptive so there are always at least a few people
there?

~~~
sjm
Funny that you mention this, as I've literally just submitted this exact app
to Apple and should hopefully be launching in the next few days.

The app is called hoody ([https://hoody.im](https://hoody.im)) and I can't
wait to post it to HN. I was actually a bit bummed to see this as I figured
they had _just_ beaten me to the post, but in fact our apps are slightly
different.

It's anonymous, with auto-generated nicknames as well, but the chat areas are
dynamic based on activity in your area. So if no one is using it, it goes
worldwide, and shrinks down as people around you are active (country level,
city level, suburb), down to a minimum of around 700 metres.

Look for it on HN in the next couple days! ;)

~~~
theveloped
Looks sweet! I've used today's traffic to play around a little with the range
on zone messenger. And do believe a dynamic range is the way to go, at least
while it's gaining traction.

All the best! and looking forward to your launch on HN

------
JulianMorrison
Anonymous messaging has proven in practise to be full of cruel gossip, hate
speech, and bullying. I can't see a positive use for it, really.

~~~
netsharc
From the screenshot: "I'm at X, who wants to get coffee?"

Are people this social, and this lonely? "Let me spend this 30 minutes of free
time to talk to some random potential weirdo!"

~~~
pjlegato
What's so weird about wanting to share your coffee with someone? The
screenshot shows someone riding a train -- presumably they are in a distant
city where they don't know anyone.

~~~
pbhjpbhj
It seems like it would be less problematic to approach a person and ask if
they could show you around or, offer to buy someone in a coffee shop another
drink rather than using a technical means that allows the other party to
select themselves?

------
Jamieee
So like YikYak, but not based on campus and before they ruined it?

~~~
theveloped
I believe YikYak is based on threads/comments right? The main difference is
that my app is more like one big local chatbox.

The initial idea was to achieve the atmosphere we used to have in (Dutch)
public transport. Everyone could participate/listen to a couple of public
conversations being held.

~~~
zyx321
You say public transport, but I have my doubts it'll work particularly well on
the subway.

~~~
nkrisc
I think that was the inspiration rather than the goal. That's how I
interpreted that comment.

------
daveguy
I wonder how this compares to an app like YikYak. I checked out YikYak for a
few days (really a weird feeling with a bunch of random anonymous people
posting messages). This seems similar except maybe only one-to-one rather than
message thread based? Also YikYak seems to have about 5 mile radius zones
(8km) rather than 1km.

~~~
csydas
I haven't used Zone but I know YikYak caught on pretty hard with college aged
folk and college campuses, so the discussions and posts tend to be a bit
different. I worked at a University in tech and due to the harassment issues
with YikYak was told to keep an eye on it and determine if we need to request
a Geo-Block from the YikYak team.

I would imagine Zone can probably break free of the age association and maybe
grab people with the same sort of "town bulletin board" feel, but it's going
to have a lot of conflicting user bases, and probably lots of trouble with
harassment in local areas. YikYak had tons of issues with the harassment [0]
problem until the user base took on a much more serious approach to
moderating. The few times I was told by a student that there was something bad
on YikYak, it had already been moderated out of visibility.

I don't know how Zone's posting works or if it has moderation or not, but
hopefully the user base takes a similar approach.

[0] To expand on the harassment, it wasn't just nasty messages being written,
it was stalker-ish comments tracking individual's activities, threats against
persons, calls for vandalism, and so on. On a smaller University campus, it's
taken a lot more seriously. We also had issues with student workers abusing
access privileges and leaking private information to YikYak, which was dealt
with appropriately by the administration.

------
discordianfish
How does this compare to YikYak (or the German equivalent 'Jodel')? Seem
technically very similar.

------
Vanit
I figure you're just rounding latlons to 2 decimal places and putting people
in buckets?

~~~
theveloped
This is indeed very similar to how initial sorting of the database is done. To
improve accuracy (over performance) further sorting is done.

Like mentioned the non-linearity with regard to latitude makes standard
trigonometry useless. In my case I opted for the haversine formula
([https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haversine_formula](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haversine_formula))
this is pretty accurate on the small range of 1km

------
peterkshultz
That the app is both geofenced and anonymous reminds me of Yik Yak, which was
a huge success on my college campus before the company decided to move away
from anonymity.

Did you develop this as a side project, or is this something you want to turn
into a business?

~~~
mywittyname
Yik Yak dropped anonymity because they had a problem with harassment on the
platform. I'm not sure how Zone is going to be any different.

~~~
problems
Does it need to? Did YikYak need to? The death of anonymity was pretty much
the death of YikYak.

Letting people talk, harassment and all seems to be the way to go. It's an opt
in thing, so if you don't like it just uninstall or ignore a few users. Maybe
I'm just a sucker for a good cesspool sometimes.

------
red_anorak
Interesting. I built a website a few years back called LampNote, which was
based around the idea of "virtual noticeboards" approx every 100m apart from
each other. In an earlier incarnation of that project I had considered solving
the same problems using anonymous geo targeted messages, either using an app
or email. I quickly discounted that approach, as it seemed like it could
become a magnet for all sorts of dodgy characters, and a potential headache
legally. The end product I arrived at was something quite different, so I'll
be interested to see how you get on with zonemessenger. Good luck!

------
shaunpud
Similar to Herenow
[https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/herenow/id882349760](https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/herenow/id882349760)

~~~
sveme
And Jodel ([https://jodel-app.com/](https://jodel-app.com/)), which is pretty
big among German students and surprisingly entertaining as well.

------
fapjacks
I think it would be more interesting if the radius was variable and dependent
upon the population density of your area. This way, your neighborhood in the
city (SF) is roughly a kilometer out, but in Wyoming, you're going to talk to
a relatively similar number of people. I think anyways it would be more useful
for the kinds of tasks I would see myself using this app for.

------
Desustorm
I would be careful about this. Could definitely be used for bullying by kids -
would suggest you come up with a strong mechanism/policy for banning users!

~~~
jacquesm
You could say the same for a lamppost (that I can attach a photo with a
message to) and just about every other means of communication where the sender
is not known (regular mail, for instance).

Technology can be used for good and for bad, this tech is no different in that
respect.

~~~
aethertron
The lamp post is part of a wider local 'ecosystem' that includes ways of
dealing with abusive messages attached to publicly-visible objects.

Communication apps like this, not so much.

This is why service and software makers are considered to have more of a
responsibility to be concerned with misuse of their platforms. (ETA:I mean
platforms, as in publicly-accessible stuff on the net, that's under their
control.)

~~~
witty_username
Maybe block the user or don't use the app if someone's bullying you?

~~~
aethertron
"Block the user"\--that requires the app to have a block feature. Would you
say that's something to be taken for granted? Something we can rightfully
expect in communication software? Something the service-provider has an
obligation to provide?

If 'bullying' in a social app/service continues, then yes, there is option to
stop using it.

But if that service has value, users are going to want to keep using it, but
they're going to ask for a better service.

------
rezashirazian
For anyone interested I built something similar (anonymous chat within a
radius) as part of a pokemon go app A few months ago. It's an iOS app built,
written in swift with a firebase backend

[https://github.com/kingreza/Social-Go](https://github.com/kingreza/Social-Go)

------
matheo
Not much different than YikYak and Jodel. Let companies advertise flash deals
and you've got a winner!

------
pareidolia
It seems pointless to me to limit the functionality to an application that
requires installation. A webapp would be a better choice.

Count me out as an (interested) user because I'm on Ubuntu Phone now.

------
cheiVia0
How does this work? Broadcast a really strong WiFi signal?

~~~
icebraining
Usually on similar apps the messages go to their servers (over 3/4G) along
with your location info, and then they re-route it back to all the users whose
reported location is close to yours.

An exception was FireChat, which built a mesh network using the Bluetooh &
Wifi-based connectivity API provided by iOS called "Multipeer Connectivity
Framework", so you could talk to someone far away as long as there were other
users between you, which served as routers.

~~~
Geee
Was?

~~~
icebraining
At the time their were an exception, nowadays I'm not sure if there aren't
others doing the same.

------
williamle8300
Did you make this with Ionic? Pretty smooth UX

~~~
theveloped
Jup. It's build using the Ionic framework. What gave it away?

~~~
williamle8300
When you click on the logo the "slide down" animation feels very web-y. The
rest of app is really nice though. Everything feels really slick for a HTML/JS
app. The keyboard show animation could a little work, but I know that's not
easy to do.

------
s17tnet
Is there anything similar but browser based ?

------
faitswulff
Random, but the name "Zone Messenger" makes me think of zones from Everquest
and other oldschool MMORPGs.

/shout DING!

~~~
stefs
congrats

------
theveloped
Following some of the comments from HN I've just started a small test by
temporarily increasing the range.

------
bahjoite
This isn't anonymous messaging, but pseudonymous messaging.

------
Xeoncross
How do they get wifi or bluetooth to extend to (1k/3,200ft) when standard wifi
or bluetooth is less than 400ft?

Are they taking control of the wifi chip and making it so the packets are
allowed to take much longer to arrive to cover the greater distances?

~~~
Faaak
Simply by using the phone's GPS and sending all messages to a centralized
server which then broadcasts it to the "in the area" participants.

~~~
Xeoncross
So they use paid cellar data then and it's not really limited to location
other than the app enforces this.

Much less interesting now compared to actual proximity apps.

------
blitzo
You know your product doing great if it blocked in China.

------
mxuribe
Looks interesting; hoping its fun! Best of luck!

------
azaydak
Doesn't seem to be out for android yet.

------
wheelerwj
Cool idea, not anonymous even a little bit.

------
eb0la
Really nice idea :-)

I remember a friend used whatsapp for the first time because it helped to get
laid... until everybody had it.

This could be better: no need to drive.

------
lima
So... Jodel?

------
fode
Please update that 2015 Copyright

~~~
ungzd
Why everyone is still adding such copyright notice if it's optional after 1989
and gives no additional protection?

~~~
qb45
Because not everybody knows even if they should. Because it makes things
easier for others. Because it facilitates contacting you for licensing deals
and you want this money. Because it makes infringements easier to prove since
you haven't officially registered your copyright. Because you want to sign
your work.

