
Now I Fear Exploratory Interviewing While Employed - tomreece
http://www.bipolarco.de/now-i-fear-interviewing-while-employed/
======
roflc0ptic
The recruiter guilting you is the recruiter acting out their anger that you
didn't earn them their $25k or whatever. They get whatever exorbitant cut they
do specifically because of the risk that they assume.

I backed out of a new job on a Thursday when I was scheduled to start on
Monday. Recruiter was super nasty to me. It was unfortunate to back out when I
did, but that's when the offer came in, and they were offering me 65k against
93k.

That kind of conflict is baked into the relationship. It's not their fault,
not exactly, but it's their job to handle rejection with professionalism and
grace, not by pouting.

Edit: I said "when the offer came in." What I meant was the competing offer
that paid ~30k more. Timeline: Company A offers, I accept. I interview at
company B. Company B offers me 30k more. I cancel with company A. Hilarity
ensues.

~~~
noname123
This. Recruiter's daily job is to talk to people to convince and pressure them
for positions that are potentially undesirable (otherwise, the roles will be
handled by an internal recruiter or filled very quickly); it is a cold-calling
sales job where rejections and cold feet are common, and the final closing are
far and between.

Their emotional response to rejections should be equivalent to a programmer's
emotional response to debugging a difficult trace-stack error.

However, their job is also to elicit emotional response from their applicant-
side to further pressure them if the applicant is sitting on the fence, sure
most of you whom have experienced the sales cycle have heard the following:
e.g.,

* "I need to feed my family..." (everyone has to make a living to feed their family)

* "[The hiring manager] told me specifically 'make sure to get this guy', we worked really hard on getting this package ready for you..." (every car sales involve printing a standard package, the sales person didn't handwrite a love letter addressed to you)

One time, I've received a particularly nasty call from a recruiter because I
made up my mind, turned down a job offer and addressed the e-mail directly to
the hiring manager cc'd to recruiter instead of just to the recruiter. The
recruiter was upset and said that "[I] burned all bridges now for any
alternative negotiations... and that's why I make the big bucks."; never mind
that the hiring manager was very polite and replied that "next time, if you
are interested; feel free to e-mail me directly". The whole experience taught
me that most of the time, the recruiter (agency) is not on your side and some
of the time, they're not even on the hiring company's side either; they like
everyone else, is frying the fish for themselves.

~~~
djsumdog
I really despise all things recruiter. I frequently hang up on them. They are
the scum of the industry.

I've had several jobs I've gotten via recruiter and several that were direct
hire. In every single case, the direct hire jobs were better (quality of the
work environment, treatment, quality of the software and environments .. I'd
even dare the say the quality of the team/other employees in some cases).

Another thing about the writer of this article; he mentions his loyalty and
how it felt like he was "cheating on his wife". You should never feel loyal to
a company. It's not a personal relationship. I talk about it a bit in this
writeup:
[http://khanism.org/society/loyalty/](http://khanism.org/society/loyalty/)

~~~
logfromblammo
If you were really married to the company, you could actually get something in
the divorce.

Your employer is not like your spouse. Your employer is more like a f'buddy
that is into "S" when you are not into "M", who gives you a booty call every
weekday at 9AM without fail, who leaves a fat wad of cash on your nightstand
every two weeks, and who all your other friends think is a colossal jerk.
Also, your employer is anything but monogamous, but expects you to be.

You would dump them in a second, if it weren't for that cash, because that
would make you a fool rather than a prostitute.

------
StavrosK
I don't really understand this post. The author seems to be doing a lot of
handwringing for no reason. Why not just tell the new company "I'm currently
employed, so it is unlikely that I would leave my job, but I would be open to
it for the right opportunity, if you're still interested"? That way, you both
know where you stand, _and_ you have a better negotiating position, since you
don't _need_ to take the new job.

~~~
chrisabrams
I concur - it's like the author never even attempted to get a cost of living
adjustment in the offer.

~~~
tomreece
The offer was 20k more than my base salary already. Asking for even more
seemed crazy to me. I have controversial opinions on how much money developers
make already, probably stemming from my imposter syndrome. Asking for more
money did not make me comfortable. If they had offered, I would have had to
reconsider. I expected more of a conversation after I declined, but it didn't
happen.

~~~
Domenic_S
The path forward is usually not comfortable. Up to you whether or not it's
worth it (sounds like it's not).

> _I expected more of a conversation after I declined_

Guessing the recruiter felt the same way. "A call would have been nice" was
the chance to have more of a conversation! It's where they say "what went
wrong?" and you say "it's all great but I did the math and I need another $15k
(or whatever) for the move to make sense" and they say "if I can get you $10k
will you accept today?" and this is called negotiation.

And don't kid yourself, it's all negotiating about money. I'd work waist-deep
in cow feces programming a Facebook clone on an AS/400 with actively hostile
coworkers if it paid $2 million/day. Let's be real, there's _always_ a price.
Maybe it's not realistic, but it's there.

For me, it's easier to negotiate conversationally. These are my roadblocks for
taking the job, how do we solve them together? Let the recruiter get creative.
In most negotiations you don't have the monopoly on solutions -- know your
must-haves and collaborate with the other party. It doesn't have to be
adversarial.

~~~
codazoda
I'm a programmer and I would prefer to negotiate via email. All those counter
points could have been raised in the response instead of a little fit.

~~~
Domenic_S
This part is business, not programming.

My biggest salary negotiation was part phone, part email. But the relationship
was collaborative, so it worked.

------
dspillett
_> felt guilty enough for turning it down after they had spent time and money
on me _

In these cases you should _never_ feel guilty about the time and other
resource _they_ spent on the process. If they hadn't made you an offer in the
end they certainly wouldn't have felt guilty about the time/money/other _you_
had spent.

~~~
pmyjavec
Very good point, I've spent almost 40 hours of my time for an application only
to be told at the final stages I wasn't right for the position.

I doubt anyone on the other side lost sleep over it.

~~~
dspillett
Exactly. It is part of the process that both parties need to accept. If the
outlay/risk is too high for the company then it is not the candidate's fault,
the candidate does not dictate the interview process.

------
pjc50
There was once a company giving out free iPads to anyone who could pass their
tech screen interview. This was round about the first release of the iPad, so
it was quite a big deal - they were expensive and out of stock at local
retailers.

I went in, passed the interview, collected my iPad, and at the second round
interview had a very strange "so why are you interested in working here?"
discussion. I wasn't, I was only there for the iPad.

~~~
tomreece
This made me laugh out loud. You're fearless!

------
dominotw
_All_ my interviews in my past few months have been in this format.

1\. Talking to recruiter ( 0-1 hr)

2\. InterviewStreet coding challenge ( 2 hrs)

3\. Phone Screen - 1 hr

4\. Take home coding exercise - 4 hrs

So you are spending 8 hrs just to get your resume looked at. Then comes onsite
interview which is another day ( assuming you are not flying out).

All recruiter did was mass email ppl on linkedin. Spending at most 1 hr on
your particular case. You have all the right to say no, its none of their
business why. I've had Amazon recruiters not even have the courtesy to email
me back when I didn't pass ( assuming) their interviewstreet. They don't even
tell you why you got rejected when you don't pass the interview so you don't
have to either if you don't want to. Just tell them 'it was difficult
decision', if you are feeling particularly generous :D.

~~~
pyb
What country are you in?

~~~
dominotw
USA

------
JoeAltmaier
Funny: the recruiter was annoyed at his declination email - a phone call was
apparently expected. But how does a company decline? "We do not see a fit at
this time, but we'll keep your resume on file". Lol

~~~
altcognito
The recruiter was upset he didn't get a chance to browbeat him into changing
his mind. The author should stick up for himself because recruiters are not
highly incentivized to care about your happiness. If you don't upset future
business, that's all that matters to them.

~~~
Domenic_S
Or the recruiter had tools at his disposal he wasn't even able to employ
against a brick-wall "no". The recruiter didn't even have the chance to
address the applicant's concerns, which is a bummer. Maybe they liked the
applicant so much the recruiter got told "do whatever it takes" and he didn't
even get a chance?

------
dudul
You did nothing wrong. Keep doing what you are doing, spend some time
interviewing, it's a great skill to develop. Don't feel like you're cheating
on your wife, your current employer is _not_ your wife. If at any point, they
realize that they are better off without you they'll sack you, period.

If the companies you interview with really want you they'll make it worth your
while. They'll adjust their offer to compensate for all the items you listed,
otherwise, they just accept the fact that you can walk at any time.

~~~
byoung2
Excellent point about negotiating. Definitely mention that you will take a hit
with housing and taxes if you move, and have them add $12k to the offer. That
is peanuts compared to the total offer amount.

------
cloudjacker
I try to subtly steer the direction of the interview process from within my
current companies. But it is fruitless, last time I got responses from other
engineers that conduct the interviews like:

\- "real world problems are not discrete enough to present and solve within 10
minutes" (but the random "average best solution" for a random algorithm
question is, and they have 30 minutes to an hour to fumble through it without
us telling them they really had 10 minutes)

\- this is what we do for everyone (and when we find the right candidate that
fits our autistic goals and is also sociable enough for our arbitrary culture
fit ideals, we won't have any exercise like it in the actual job)

I just don't get how there is so much media about how bad the interview
process is, on here and linkedin, but nobody has an alternative yet. Is hand
waiving it away with "we just dont want false negatives" really the absolute
to perpetuate this inefficient process?

------
alekratz
It sounds like the poster is happy with his position in life, and he's just
figuring that out. I think favorite piece of wisdom that can be applied to
this post is to listen to your gut when it tells you _not_ to do something;
not the other way around. If you're in a position in life where you're happy,
try to coast for a while and enjoy stability.

~~~
chrisabrams
I didn't gather that the author was happy - it sounds like he's quite stressed
all the time and over-analyzing everything and yet not considering so many
options at the same time. Just doesn't seem like a fun recipe to me.

------
tomjen3
Rage. Your employer pays your salary, you do your very best work for them.
That is all you owe them. If they expect to make a penny more without you,
they will.

You do not owe them loyalty beyond that. You owe negative loyalty to a
recruiter, especially somebody trying to guilt you.

------
3pt14159
Just ask for way more money. What would it take for you to get to that more
pricey spot? An extra $50k? Just do it. I've seen people get 30 or 50% more on
their offer by impressing the hell out of the interviewers. Don't think that
the the flight makes you owe them anything. Why do they need to do an in-
person interview? I've hired plenty of people out of province with a couple
extended Google Hangouts chats as well as code review.

------
cm3
> I sought advice from two of my best friends/coworkers.

Unless you trust them absolutely, it's a risky idea to talk to coworkers about
your interviews somewhere else. If your coworkers are already talking about
their interviews with you, then it's fine. I mean, there are some very weird
companies out there where the managers get so upset at the idea that you might
look somewhere else on your own initiative that it's usually best to not talk
about job interviews with any coworker. It's one of those things that people
do themselves but hold against you once they know you did. Talk about some job
frustration during a company party, only to have it recited as an argument
against you during an HR interview.

That said, interviewing at places even if you don't have plans to leave is
normal and many people do it. It's interview experience and market research in
one and it's something your employer may not punish you for, but some do, so
keep it private.

~~~
jsprogrammer
Doing this results in the company and HR having an inaccurate view of the
organization. How long can a company last when employees don't make
frustrations known and instead put on a happy face for display?

~~~
dudul
You can voice your frustrations and offer ways to improve the organization
without volunteering the information that you are interviewing.

When it comes to interviews and dealing with my current employer, I have 2
rules: never tell that you are trying to leave, and never accept the counter
offer when you give your notice.

------
ElijahLynn
We rent our brains for money. Brain prostitution. We can seek higher offers,
no guilt needed.

~~~
dudul
Exactly. Everybody in this industry needs to shift their mindset. You are not
a loyal little employee cherished by your boss, you are a contractor with one
customer, period. You do not owe anything to anybody, you are free to go with
what is best for you as an individual and a professional.

~~~
AnimalMuppet
True, but... _never_ burn bridges (unless you really would go on unemployment
rather than work there - or with them - again).

------
badmadrad
I have been in this situation before where I was flown out and the company low
balled me on salary with 5% pay cut despite the cost of living be way higher.
My time and energy was wasted. Trust me, companies do the same things all time
to prospective employees. Even for a startup, flying someone out and putting
them in a hotel for a night is the cost of doing business and the risk you
take for finding the right candidates.

~~~
beachstartup
if you didn't tell them how much you want to make, they're going to just
guess. and it sounds like they guessed pretty well, if they came within 5% of
what you currently make.

amateur hour advice like "never be the first one to name a price" is nonsense.
just tell them what you want and see if there's a fit, or not. it's how
business gets done 99% of the time.

~~~
badmadrad
I did tell them what I make but I didn't tell them what would make me leave
because it usually goes without saying... more money.

~~~
beachstartup
right, so exactly as i suspected, you didn't tell them how much you want to
make.

and no, it doesn't go without saying. you need to say it. tell them your
requirements. do it without them asking.

what if you wanted to buy a car, but the dealer wouldn't tell you the price?
what would you do? offer them MORE than what you think the car is worth?

~~~
badmadrad
I actually see it a bit differently than buying a car. To me it's more like an
auction where the person only has to actually sell the item if they are
pleased with the final price. So if the price starts at $100 dollars and you
bid $95 that person will probably not give you the item and wait for a better
deal or at the very least sell at cost. That being said, I certainly could
have been more assertive and said I will only move if you pay me X amount but
then you run the risk of not getting the best offer they can provide because
you have given them number. At the end of the day after the company low balled
me, I told them I would need more money than that and they wouldn't budge so
even so it was still a waste of energy.

------
partisan
This post sounds like every interview cycle I've ever gone through. The self
doubt during the process, the surprise at their interest, the pleasantness of
the new company, and then finally, the hard part: making a decision. Not sure
why this is worth even writing about. Also, I wonder about the sensibility of
writing about it under your own name when your current employer now knows you
are interviewing around.

------
jowiar
Everyone owes it to themselves to test the market once a year. You don't have
to take the offer, but the extent to which you consider yourself guilty for
doing so is the extent to which your current employer is screwing you. If your
current company is in trouble, they will only blink once or twice before
kicking you aside.

~~~
omegaham
> If your current company is in trouble, they will only blink once or twice
> before kicking you aside.

This right here. The company has no loyalty to you, so why should you have any
loyalty to them?

I'm very happy where I am right now, but I know that I'm exactly one "pivot"
away from getting the axe and having to move to Texas. If a better opportunity
comes my way, I'm not going to lose sleep over quitting.

------
desireco42
You sound like junior guy which probably explain all the drama. Others already
pointed out your mistakes in reasoning.

However, since you liked this opportunity so much (SF I assume), you could
just ask for more money, however much would make things work for you. Explain
your reasoning to them and see what they can do.

------
kelnos
> Maybe I did nothing wrong and am over-analyzing it.

Yes, that's exactly it.

The recruiter was being a dick by making you feel guilty about declining over
email. Even if the recruiter was correct and you should have called, that has
no bearing on whether or not you should feel guilty about the process overall.

You went through the process, was presented with an offer, and after
evaluating the offer against your current circumstances, decided it wasn't a
better deal. That's how it's _supposed_ to work.

I'd say keep on doing what you're doing. If you find that interviewing
periodically is a good use of your time, do it.

------
JSeymourATL
> Maybe there is a better way to explore other opportunities without ending up
> on a plane.

Yes, arrange a Skype/call (30-45 mins) with the actual hiring executive, the
guy you'd report to.

Have solid questions prepared. Learn some basics about what they are working
on, what kinds of problems they need solved, a little about structure and the
team.

Assuming there's good tonality in the conversation and you're serious about
exploring further-- then move forward to meeting in-person.

------
jraines
I guess I'll be one voice in the other direction -- I agree with the friend:
if deep down you know you're just exploring, you should cut it off before the
in-person if they are flying you out. Interviewing is stressful for the
interviewers, too, and nobody wants to pay $400~ and spend a day of their
time, too, for you to have a field trip to update your feel for the market.

------
nicky0
Everyone in this story seems to have acted reasonably.

Guy interviews new job, weight up the pros and cons, decided against it.

------
timwaagh
I do not see a real reason why one should be afraid of trying to find a better
offer. I do not think it is right to be so emotionally attached to an
employer. all they do is give you money to do stuff they don't want to do.
It's just business and loyalty should not come into it.

------
ffaaa
This looks like an advert for the book.

------
ffaaa
Post sounds like an book add.

~~~
datamoshr
Comment sounds like you didn't actually read the post. He explicitly says he's
against the book. I can't fault someone for trying to earn some credit with
Amazon.

