
What Is It Like To Be an Adult and Not Have Kids?  - danso
http://www.slate.com/blogs/quora/2012/12/28/what_is_it_like_to_be_an_adult_and_not_have_kids.html
======
jdietrich
The second author is a narcissist and a fool.

People have chosen not to have children for at least as long as people have
been writing down their thoughts. Most cultures throughout history have a
monastic class of some sort, who renounce many aspects of conventional life to
pursue other aims. There are myriad ways to live a significant, meaningful
life without children. If you cannot think of a worthwhile use of your life
that is not focussed on either your own material enrichment or raising your
own progeny, that is merely a reflection of your own worthlessness.

Saying "I regret having children" is one of the most taboo sentences in our
society. Until we address that taboo, we are unlikely to find an honest answer
as to whether having children really is a source of fulfilment.

~~~
usaphp
actually narcissist and fool will be a person who decides that satisfying his
own hunger for travel and business is more important than evolution.

~~~
aswanson
I have kids, love em, but why the fuck should anyone's life decision be termed
narcissistic for not participating in a large scale, indifferent physical
process? Am I narcissistic when I jump because I'm (momentarily) defying
gravity?

------
debacle
> I mean the screaming kid in the restaurant.

I'll say this for everyone else out there - deciding to not have kids based on
bad kids in public is like deciding to not buy a house because of that one guy
who never mows his lawn.

My kids have never had an outburst in public. Had one have gone into a temper
tantrum or anything of the sort, I would have quietly left the establishment
as a courtesy to others.

You don't notice the people who raise their kids well or have good kids
because they go out of their way not to be a burden to others.

I'll call myself lucky that I have two great, artistic, and intelligent kids
that are also mannered and polite, but it's less about luck and more about
parenting.

If you want to have kids, and are scared by that horror scene in the
restaurant, rest assured that you can have kids that aren't like that. It's
not luck, it's parenting.

~~~
dhimes
Even the public tantrums tend to be few and far between. We've had a couple
among our three kids. Perhaps others around us were horrified. But other
parents aren't- we get it.

Seriously, in the big picture it's no big deal. Downs syndrome, in contrast,
is a big deal.

~~~
debacle
Yes. The birth defect thing is terrifying.

------
lukev
I can't speak to the sentiments expressed by the article, as I have not yet
reached that point of life.

But as the father of a toddler (and probably another in the relatively near
future), I can say that it isn't all reward, at least in the short term. It's
exhausting. I have a massive list of ideas and half-started projects that I
feel too burned out to work on productively by the time the kid's in bed, and
weekends (which used to by my personal project time) are pretty much gone.

If any parent/hackers out there have any tips on how to stay motivated and
productive with kids, I'd love to hear it. Or is it just a matter of waiting
until they're a bit older?

This isn't just about "personal and financial success", by the way... I am
happy to put my kid ahead of personal career and finance (although I actually
find that to be fairly compatible, as long as I can get in a standard work
week, which my wife graciously allows me). What suffers is my own personal
motivations and fulfillment, my own hobbies, education and art.

~~~
nickler
Everyone has excuses for not getting around to the stuff they want to do. When
you have a kid, it's the most convenient excuse, but in my experience I've
gotten no less done since my daughter's birth.

I was a no kid adult until 37. I had great success, owning bars and
restaurants and living a very busy life. I was happy to believe that a
childless life was my destiny. My wife was told it was a medical impossibility
for her to have children, further reinforcing this mindset.

I had it all, and had no time for children. Having owned fine dining
restaurants, I had a dim view of them in social settings, and having a very
active social life they were a dirty, smelly, noisy intrusion.

We found out we were pregnant, and it scared us, mostly that we'd be losing
out on the life we built for ourselves.

Two and a half years in, I've never been happier, and more motivated. I've
been more productive as a father than I ever was with all the other
distractions. I've launched 3 companies, consulting on two more, and lost 30
lbs.

A great parent, like a great leader, is made, not born. Inside all of us is a
great, loving parent, but there are some who will not bear the risk to their
lifestyle, just like we wouldn't.

Staying motivated, honestly, is about realizing that you are ultimately
responsible for managing your time. Don't blame your kids. They're hard work,
but so is running a company, or leading a revolution. I would argue that
they're worth it, even as I'm working from home as I toilet train her.

I wont judge anyone who chooses to avoid being a parent, just as I wouldn't
judge anyone who never chooses to start a company, chase a dream, or take a
big risk. But I will say this.

The reward far outweighs the risk.

All great things are difficult, all worthwhile achievements demand sacrifice,
and while some may be intimidated by a heavy workload, for me it's a clarion
call to be the best father I can be.

It has made me the best founder I could be.

~~~
groovecoder
Yeah if you have a toddler, 3 companies, and have lost 30 lbs, I'd love to
know what time-management system you _do_ use.

~~~
nickler
hehe the secret is delegation, and a kick ass to do list. Just like building
an mvp, I don't let feature creep seep into the world i'm building.

------
dhimes
If you choose to not have kids, think very carefully about this. Reading
things like this post may help you anticipate some of the emotions you are
going to feel.

I say this because I've witnessed a pattern that I find very tragic: A couple
in their relative youth (30s) decide that they don't want kids. Later,
however, they start having second thoughts. And by the time they decide that
they do want kids, they are desperate.

IVF rates, to my knowledge, are still pretty low (once you rule out the four-
fertilizations-at-once average-movers), and carrying to term is also hard. So
there is depression and tragedy every time the bad news is revealed- the
pregnancy didn't take, or the woman miscarried.

I know several people who regret not having kids, but I don't know any who
regret having kids (or, to be fair, admit to regretting it).

I'm not trying to preach here, I'm just saying that I would recommend only
making the decision not to have kids after giving it a deep, emotional
consideration. The rational reasons (I wouldn't be good at it, etc.), may not
hold up as you age.

~~~
zzzeek
This is an extremely important comment that I'm glad has been made in the
midst of the other "kids are overrated" comments I see here. If you don't want
kids, great. But if you are in your early 30s and don't have much of an
opinion yet, _start thinking about it right now_. Fertility drops like a stone
in the mid thirties, and due to our delays in this area my wife and I will
probably remain childless despite an outlay of many tens of thousands of
dollars over the course of seven years towards many failed fertility
procedures. If writing a check for $20000 in exchange for absolutely nothing
but yet another heartbreak in return doesn't appeal to you, please make sure
you make thoughtful decisions about having kids _sooner_ than you might
usually think is warranted.

~~~
xnxn
Stupid question, I know, but have you considered adoption? I wouldn't exist at
all if my grandparents hadn't.

~~~
zzzeek
Adoption is a $30-$60K process to embark upon and often takes years, featuring
many potential roadblocks - the recent Russian decision for example shuts the
door to many couples who've been waiting for months or years on waiting lists.
Domestic adoption is a complex process also.

Assuming our upcoming donor cycle fails, adoption will be our final
alternative. We are in our mid-40s now.

~~~
vacri
Fostering is always in need of more folks. It's not quite the same, but it's
an option.

------
rayiner
As a new parent who is unexpectedly a parent earlier than I thought I would
be...

I can see why people choose not to have kids. They're expensive, they're
noisy, and they really limit your ability to be spontaneous.

That being said, it seems to have become fairly popular to rag on having kids,
and I think at least some of the angst is derived from buying into certain
cultural expectations about having kids despite rejecting the general cultural
expectation to have kids.

American culture makes parenting out to be a lot harder than it is. If you're
a mom who doesn't stay at home with her kids, bake cookies for the PTA, send
them to a dozen after school activities, etc, you're a bad parent and your
kids will grow up to be unsuccessful degenerates.

I think that's overstated. Right now, I'm in New York working while my wife is
with my parents in DC taking care of our newborn while she finishes final
exams for law school. Out of 5 weeks of the baby's life, I've missed half. And
you know what? She'll never remember it. American culture creates this huge
conflict between careers and raising young children that doesn't need to be so
big. We say "these are the best years, you shouldn't miss them" but that's for
us, not the kids. I miss my daughter terribly. She has no idea that I (or
anything else) continue to exist when she can't see me. My dad travelled
internationally 50% of the time while my brother and I were small children.
How was it affected us? Not at all--I don't even remember anything before 5 or
6 or so.

The same thing is true for activities when the child is older. Suburban
parents spend enormous amounts of time just driving around, from ballet class
to soccer practice, etc. But nobody on their death bed has ever lamented they
didn't do ballet as a child instead of just running around in the back yard
with friends. Suburbia itself creates huge artificial roadblocks. Commutes
that suck away time, big houses that get filled with toys, etc. All that is
unnecessary. Entire generations of kids grew up in the city where they could
be ditched with the neighbor on short notice if necessary. Those cities still
exist. It's still possible to walk from work to your apartment, picking up the
kid and some dinner on the way.

All this is not to say that having kids doesn't create real challenges.
Infancy is going to be a rough deal for you if you're not good at sleeping in
3 hour blocks. When you go to work, you have to find somewhere to put them for
8-10 hours a day, preferably somewhere they won't get killed. But there is a
middle ground between not having kids and having kids then abandoning your
career, hobbies, etc, and moving to the sururbs and joining the PTA.

~~~
vacri
I think the popularity of ragging on having kids is because it's finally able
to be done in polite conversation without being seen as a monster. Some of us
don't want kids, but find that we become second-class citizens when the topic
comes up. Last night we had a barbeque with parents of a one-year- and two-
year old in attendance. All night the conversation fluttered around nappies
and toddler-proofing houses and more stuff about dealing with baby poo and
vomit and whatnot.

On the one hand, it's fine, because these are new sets of parents using a
pressure release valve, but on the other hand, it's screamingly boring because
I've had to deal with the exact same conversation with new parents throughout
my life. Try and change the topic and it comes back to baby vomit on the car
seats or how the cat doesn't deal well with fistfuls of fur pulled out of her.
It's not socially acceptable to indicate that it's boring to be in this
conversation yet again - because to _these_ parents, _these_ kids are special.
Which is fine, for them, but for me, the only thing that ever changes are the
names.

I guess this is a long-winded way of saying that the ragging on having kids is
also an escape valve; that it's a way of highlighting that not having kids is
also a valid life choice rather than just bearing it silently. We'll never get
to a point where it's perfectly acceptable to say 'No, I don't want kids'
without speaking up from time to time.

~~~
dhimes
_On the one hand, it's fine, because these are new sets of parents using a
pressure release valve_

Actually, that's not why we do it. It's because in that time of our life _it's
all we really know that we can talk about to the general population._

If you have specific common interests, then there's that too. But we don't
know the stats on the sports teams any more, at least not reliably. We used to
be deep into the details of politics or current events, but now we're a little
fuzzy on the fifth-paragraph stuff. And some subjects we just let go entirely.

We know what we work at and taking care of the kids.

There are exceptions, of course. There is that guy that still seems to be able
to do everything he did before having kids. But you can spot his wife at that
same party, and you don't need to be introduced in order to do so. She's
surrounded by girlfriends at the party, she looks a bit unhappy around the
eyes, and she holds your gaze for a moment too long.

------
supercanuck
I'm convinced children are one of those things that one is never "ready" for.
I was an only child with very limited access to young children even into my
20's. I always was averse growing up to other people's kids, never wanted to
touch or hold them and was convinced I didn't want them either. It wasn't
until I obliged my wife that we had them. There are plenty of times it is a
struggle but I echo the sentiment that until you've experienced that
unconditional love, you haven't fully lived. That isn't a judgement on those
who choose not too, because, I too was one of those people looking at the
crying kid on the airplane with disdain, but, no question, kids changes your
whole outlook of the world.

~~~
nobodysfool
Nah, I was ready for children 3 years ago, just hadn't found the right woman
until two years ago. Now I'm the proud parent of a 1 year old. I never wanted
to have kids until about 3 years ago. I knew I wasn't ready then. Our kid
wasn't an accident, she was planned, and I am glad that our plan worked out.
She's a delight, and I love every minute that I spend with her.

The decision to have a child isn't about vanity, or narcissism. You have to
put up with being kicked, vomited on, abused and hated when you become a
father / mother. That comes with the territory. You have to put someone above
yourself, and it really is a humbling experience.

------
xsmasher
The answer seems to be "depends who you are." Some people have an overriding
and insatiable drive to have children, and would be miserable without them.
Others have no such drive, or an aversion to children, and are perfectly happy
without them.

The trick to to make sure you and your partner are on the same page about
this, and I mean long before getting hitched or moving in together. Like
third-date long before.

~~~
dclusin
This is a tricky issue to sort out because opinions and desires aren't set in
stone. I've known more than a few friends who have had relationships
deteriorate because initially they were on the same page but one party ended
up changing their minds.

As with all relationships whether they be personal or professional the most
important part of the relationship is to maintain open lines of communication
with the other party.

~~~
toomuchtodo
This is where I'm at now.

My wife and I were married when I was 25 and she was 23. I just turned 30, and
while back then I was all about having children, I'd like to put it off as I
still have a lot of places to visit, things to do, etc.

She, on the other hand, is ready to have children. Now. Since she's 28, she
has a plan to have X kids, spaced X years apart.

The next 6-12 months of our relationship will be interesting.

~~~
Tichy
Can't you visit those places together with your kids?

I was 38 when we had our son and I already regret being so old. There is the
worry of staying fit and healthy as long as possible to be there for him.
Also, his grandparents enjoy him very much. Should my son wait as long as I
did to have children, I would already be 76 - so probably much less joy with
grandchildren. And lots more issues like that.

If you have a kid, being fit and healthy suddenly becomes so much more
important. Sure, I wanted to live before I had a kid, too. But the reality is
that dieing would bother me much more now than before having a kid (yes I know
it wouldn't bother me anymore once I'm dead...).

Also, pregnancy becomes more difficult and risky for older women. And if you
have a kid and decide you actually like it, might be nice to have some spare
years to create more. Just saying...

~~~
toomuchtodo
Antartica. Working for the DPW (Dept of Public Works) at Burning Man one year.
Zero-gravity flights. Wing-suit skydiving. Living in Amsterdam for a year.

This is just a short chunk of things copied from my bucket list. Kids don't
mix well with the above activities.

~~~
Tichy
Actually most don't seem so bad. Burning Man sounds like a normal job - other
people with kids have jobs, too? Zero-gravity flights only take a couple of
minutes, maybe a day if you include the trip to the airport. It is actually
possible to take a day off even if you have kids (assuming a supportive
spouse, or, if you are alone, a suitable babysitter). Same for wing-suit
skydiving, although admittedly it seems possible that you would be less keen
to do that if you had kids.

Don't know about Amsterdam: they do have kids in Amsterdam, but perhaps you
mean "a year living high on drugs surrounded by prostitutes"? No offense -
just wondering why it would be incompatible with kids.

Antarctica: again, why not. Depends on what you want to do there. Also you can
do some things when your kids are older.

Even taking a few months off doesn't seem impossible, with a supporting
spouse. I think there are lots of parents who go away to remote locations for
work (truck drivers and oil rig workers for example).

~~~
Gmo
I would even say, living abroad for a while with your kids would be a bonus
for them (granted they are not just 6 months old but a few years old).

They'll pick up a foreign language (even though Dutch is not the most
important one) and see a different culture.

------
mgkimsal
Married 15 years, no kids, no desire. I _can't_ have kids, I think my wife
would have had kids had she married someone else who wanted kids, but has
never expressed that she's wanted kids (and has more recently expressed thanks
that we don't have any).

What's it like? It's just life. You keep living, with or without kids.

What does bother me some is the moral high ground some people take when they
know you don't have kids. "You couldn't _possibly_ understand what it's like."
"Once you have kids, you'll know." To some extent, that might be true, but I
don't think it's impossible to make judgements about certain situations
without being in that situation entirely.

Some people tend to make a lot more judgements about me and my decision not to
have kids than I do about their choice _to_ have kids. "But... no kids? That's
so selfish of you!" Then 10 minutes later... "aren't you worried about who
will take care of you when you're older?". WTH?

~~~
larrys
Funny. I had noted your name after seeing what you did quite some time ago.
Now I just updated it with "has no kids". (A bonus to me).

I hired an attorney many years ago and when I found out he had no kids that
was a plus. It meant that he would be able to think about law without
distraction and I wouldn't be hearing excuses about how he left the office
early to watch the soccer game. (I have kids by the way but have managed to
still keep work a priority. I haven't found this to be universal though.)

I was right about the attorney. Many Friday's he was at the office late and
was generally available any day any time he didn't have many distractions.

Of course I'm not commenting on what is good for him but for me I saw it as a
positive.

~~~
mgkimsal
Not sure what I did to get 'noted', but I hope it was good :)

I might dispute your view of that attorney - he may well have many other
distractions that prevent him from getting stuff done, but certainly the 'time
with the kids' factor isn't there.

Of course, when interviewing people for jobs, we're never supposed to ask
about personal/family issues, but I do eventually bring it up (though I
haven't been in a job interview in several years). My wife and I are both
self-employed, have no kids, and are able to devote stretches of time to work
when necessary. I point that out - "if you need someone to travel and stay
overnight, I've got no issues with that" sort of thing. Not sure it helped all
that much for 'jobs', but it has helped in freelance/consulting. "Yes, I can
be there tomorrow, and my fee is $x".

------
DanielBMarkham
The thing is, having children is a transformative experience. I don't think
you can compare the two states of existence in the way the question assumes.

I call kids a "terrible blessing". There's so much downside, yet on the whole
its not something you regret, _once you make the transition_. All
generalizations are false, yet biologically we are made to sexually reproduce.
Therefore reproduction and the creation of replacements is a natural part of
life for most of us.

I don't think you can make value judgments about whether one situation is
better or worse than another. It doesn't work that way. Having said that, I am
reminded of something my adoptive mother told me before she died. Having spent
a couple of decades in a very active community of older people, she found the
ones without children the saddest. "They don't have anybody," she'd say sadly.
Yes, they might have had a great life where they accomplished much and did all
they wanted to do, they might even have a Rolodex full of friends, but at the
end, there was nobody left for them. There were no replacements or people to
carry on their memory long after they were gone. There was a deep loneliness
and an empty spot as they socialized with others and enjoyed their last days.
This was something others could notice. This was something most of them
admitted to feeling.

Take that for what it's worth --- probably not a lot. For me, this is one of
those things that looks dramatically different at age 47 than it did at age
17.

~~~
zargon
Having kids doesn't protect one from loneliness in old age. Adult children are
independent and choose their own social circles.

~~~
Evbn
Daniel was real hinting at the evo bio genetic imperative, and how facing end
of life not having kids makes you admit the death of your genetic line. I
suspect that elders with nieces and nephews would feel something in between
the other two cases.

------
superk
I'm 35, been together with my wife for about 8 years and we're finally
expecting our first kid in about 1 month. We were both always firmly in the
"no kids" camp, the cost/benefit ratio just never seemed to add up. So what
changed our minds? Partly it was peer pressure: everyone I know by this time
has had kids, people who I respect, smarter people than myself. But mostly it
was two slow realizations I've had:

1\. It is part of the lifecycle, it is part of being an adult. The link at the
top is mislabeled, you can't be an "adult" and not have kids. Yes it's
grueling and miserable, but discomfort grounds you and gives you perspective.
People that never leave their comfort zone never grow... they don't "grow up".

2\. I personally believe it is the key to immortality. I'm not talking
reincarnation or ancestor worship. Just a mental image I have every being that
lived and died since the beginning of time to create me (or you), like threads
in a fabric, and then you don't procreate and it's like "snip" and that thread
ends.

~~~
xsmasher
> The link at the top is mislabeled, you can't be an "adult" and not have
> kids.

I don't know what drive you to that conclusion, or what makes you equate not
having children with never leaving your comfort zone.

I know parents who are not "adults" in the grounded/perspective sense, and
childless couples with more perspective than I can conceive.

~~~
superk
I agree with you - absolutely. The potential for growth and perspective as a
human being is innate - some people have more of it than others. Though those
people with greater potential - an awareness that our experiences can change
us - are exactly the kind of people who leave their comfort zone more - versus
the author of the linked story who writes: "But when I thought about what it
took to get there, the diapers, the soccer games, the braces, the tantrums,
the whole enchilada, I knew that it wasn't for me." That was the kind of
person I had in mind.

------
rdl
Ugh. Where did they find those people? (oh, apparently at Quora, which makes
me sad for my people)

I, at 33, still wake up at least 3 times a week thinking "thank god I don't
have children", and pretty much have felt that way for as long as I can
remember. I really like my freedom. I mean, I'm reluctant to buy houseplants
because they would tie me to one place to maintain them. Kids would be ok if
they could be shipped off to boarding school most of the time, or were adults,
but I viscerally hate being around young (under 10-12yo, but especially under
3yo) children.

I am probably less likely to get married (not wanting kids) than I would be
otherwise, but I'm fine with living in sin indefinitely. (I see no real
benefit to marriage other than the legal benefits, and for me, those seem
mostly negative).

~~~
Tichy
No offense to you, but I think they asked older people, not people in their
thirties.

------
dromidas
Hurray :) 31 and no kids here, don't plan on having any. My habits and
personality would make me a freakin awful parent and I would hate it more than
the kids would after they grew up having me a parent.

So no thanks, no kids for me.

~~~
dromidas
Wow just read the answer from the guy on there:

"And then it dawns on you, your purpose in life: It's love. A life without
love is a life without purpose and completely meaningless. And I'm not talking
about the kind of love you feel for your soul mate. That love is not
invincible. I'm talking about unconditional love. The kind of love only
children have to give and would die inside without it."

What a prick. If your life is meaningless without kids go move to the midwest
and shack up with some girl out of highschool desperate to get kids. My life
certainly isn't meaningless. I get a lot of enjoyment and meaning out of my
life, but perhaps I'm different than most since I actually consider
intellectual challenges meaningful.

~~~
shawnphoffman
"...move to the midwest and shack up with some girl out of highschool
desperate to get kids."

This is more accurate than I care to admit.

~~~
dromidas
Haha I know, I lived in South Dakota for a while... its amazing how many of my
friends parents were disappointed with them for not being married with
children shortly after school.

------
drivingmenuts
45\. No kids. No wife. Just me and a cat. I choose whom I consider my family
from among my friends. Beyond that, I doubt I'm in a stable enough situation
to have more than that.

~~~
waterlesscloud
Nice thing when I hit the end of my 30s, people stopped asking me when I was
going to get married and have kids. Just never had the urge for kids and
figured if I didn't feel the desire it wouldn't be a good idea. Came close to
marriage once or twice and I might again, but kids no.

I like kids. I like my brother's kids. I like my friends' kids. Just don't
want my own.

------
johngalt
Am I the only parent who was surprised how easy raising kids is? All I've
heard was how much of a sacrifice and struggle raising kids is. My experience
is the complete opposite. You make larger portions of the same meals, run a
full washing machine every day instead of a half full one. Play chutes and
ladders instead of settlers of catan. Are there constraints on your life that
didn't exist before? Yes, but nothing intolerable if you don't obsess about
it.

The hard part for a lot of parents is the number of things you 'should do to
be a better parent', stretches out into the infinite. No matter what good they
do, all they see is an endless list of ways in which they've failed. Keep
yourself out of that mental trap and parenting is a piece of cake.

~~~
blazingfrog2
While staying clear of that mental trap is key (so easy to forget, at least
here in the US), I also think that for it to feel easy, some people have to
make a conscious effort to make it easy.

If you're anything like me, any intellectually-gratifying side project I get
started on will slowly consume me if I'm not careful. By that, I mean that
it's what I'll think about when I get up, before I go to sleep and, yes,
during all my free time. I can't do the one hour a day thing.

It's simply impossible to balance that state of mind with young children, at
least the first few years, because it's not so much that they'd resent you if
you chose to spend your free time on that side project instead of them
(although if they're old enough, they will), it's that they physically need
you for reassurance, feeding, diaper-changing, etc... That's a lesson I
learned the hard way, especially after my second child.

A real danger for people like me is that you could end up resenting your own
kid for depriving you of that intellectual gratification you crave. No matter
how much fun little kids are (say < 4), they cannot satisfy that craving.

------
robodale
39\. Married for 11+ years. No kids. We go on vacations, work out, visit
friends and family, and I build websites and applications on the side. We both
complain we have no time. I could not imagine our lives _with_ kids.

~~~
duck
I'm a couple years younger than you and have four kids (6yo to a newborn). We
do all the things you do except for one thing: complain we have no time (but I
do remember doing that before I had any kids!). I think kids give you a new
outlook on time and the fact you just have to _enjoy_ what time you do have.

------
RyanZAG
Having children is not 'doing your part' anymore, and people need to
understand this. We are quickly reaching the point where we have enough humans
in the world. Feel free to have children if you want them, but please
understand that 'doing your part' is quickly changing to mean 'no children -
we have enough'. If you want to do your part, rather adopt a child.

Also, the world isn't all about you.

~~~
Tichy
Maybe I would feel worse about having contributed to overpopulation if other
people wouldn't multiply in such an unchecked fashion.

What is the world all about anyway?

Since I have a child, I actually want my friends to have children too, so that
my child can have friends, too. Rather selfishly (you might even say racist),
I want my culture to survive.

The probability seems quite high that my child will be confronted with a
difficult future. That held me off from having children for a long time, but
ultimately, they deserve their chance. I don't need 10 children, but one or
two should be OK.

~~~
RyanZAG
That's a pretty strange and common "us vs them" mentality. Unfortunately it
doesn't really work - both your children and everybody else's children are all
still human, as much as some people like to believe otherwise. It also doesn't
work in the same way that making your adverts on a page bigger than your
competitor's adverts doesn't work: eventually both you and your competitor
have adverts so big that there is no content left on the page. Then the page
is just junk mail and gets tossed in the trash...

~~~
Tichy
That's why I said one or two children are enough for me, not 8 or more.

Yes, it's selfish. So is living at all. If you are so concerned, why not
commit suicide and donate the resources you would have consumed in the rest of
your life to other people and their children?

------
rsingel
Wait, now Quora is now syndicating answers as blog posts to publications? Do
users know this? Does Quora ask permission? Do users get a rev share? Looks
exactly like what Instagram was trying to do.

Update: Answered my own question. Looks like Quora does ask permission. At
least that's what the announcement of the partnership said:
<http://www.quora.com/blog/Quora-Partners-with-Slate>

------
malachismith
Every day I say a little prayer of thanks for getting to where I am without
having kids. Every time I spend time with my (many) friends who have kids (and
now grandkids in some cases), I understand why they've made this choice and
yet feel even more validated in my own choice.

And every time someone says, "how do you look so young for your age" or "how
can you possibly afford to live the way you live and go the places you go and
have the experiences you have" - I just smile and say, "no kids."

------
mattdeboard
I'm a single dad, like really single. Mom isn't really in the picture and
besides from my wonderful girlfriend don't have much help at all. It's getting
easier as my daughter gets older (almost 9 now) but wow I really don't want
any more kids. I like the idea of it but I think I'm done. I don't begrudge
anyone if they love having kids and think it's the best, nor if they never
want any kids ever because they're terrible little monsters. On most days I
feel both ways. I'll be in my early 40s when I lock my kid out of the house
for the last time after I shoo her off to college (or whatever). I don't want
to be parenting into my 50s or 60s. I'm done.

------
bdcravens
I think it depends on the why. I have Cystic Fibrosis, which has a 98%
infertility rate among males (edit: not so much infertile as much as CF gives
you a built-in vasectomy). IVF is an option, but my wife's age (36) means the
clock is ticking and nothing is guaranteed. I can't speak for her, but I'd
like them, but have put myself in a place where my life's outlook isn't
defined by whether or not I'm ever a parent.

------
wellpast
I think the two voices here are interesting. The first account is very much a
personal account (here's _my_ story), the second comes across as much more
prescriptive and didactic ( _you_ should have kids). The first person seems
content with her choices, these ons comes across as frustrated and unhappy. I
found this fascinating and took from it no lesson about whether or not to have
children--only that, here, happiness/contentment accompanies humble self-
awareness, frustration with the idea that your life should serve as some kind
of black & white prescription for the world.

------
chrisbennet
My wife and I have no kids but I tell people we're a one child family - I'm
the child. ;-)

Children make me smile when I see them but I have no desire to reproduce.
Natural selection has selected for parents that experience great joy in having
children. Those that didn't have this response probably ate their young. <g>

------
wallywax
It's amazing. If that's what you want.

If you want kids, have them. That's great, I'll be genuinely happy for you,
and I'll come to their birthdays, graduations, and weddings.

We don't want kids of our own, and are very satisfied and fulfilled with our
lives. So please, try to understand that, and be happy for us in return.

~~~
freehunter
My grandparents make me feel so bad for not having kids. I thought the
pressure would go away after my niece was born, but nope. The older people in
my life like huge families and a constant stream of babies. The last thing I
need in my life is more responsibility and less time, and my SO feels the same
way.

------
ChrisBanner
I admire someone who can conclude that their lifestyle would not be conducive
to raising a child as much as I admire a great parent. Ultimately, the worst
scenario would be to have a child you were unfit to care for. That said, I
think a lot of couples wrestling with this question are rather tough on
themselves. More are fit for this sort of thing than they might realize.

------
lucisferre
So Q and A mined from Quora qualifies for Slate now? Oh well.

Kids or no kids are definitely a YMMV issue. I have a 18mo old daughter who I
love dearly and is "the light of my life" _yawn_. But I'm also aware enough to
know the tradeoffs of children and belive that it is just as equally possible
to be wonderfully happy without them as it is to be miserable with them.

Please. Children != happiness.

In fact I believe this has been studied at length, but I can't recall the
source now. That said, sharing your life with a child or two can be highly
rewarding.

------
mjackson
> We've always had two or three dogs at a time, and they've had our love,
> attention, and affection. They're spoiled rotten. Better dogs than children.

One very common trait among people I know who don't have kids is that they
have dogs. For them, dogs help to fill the need they have for unconditional
love and the seemingly built-in paternal/maternal need to care for someone.
That's great. Nothing wrong with that.

I've had lots of dogs in my life. In my experience, the dogs were fun. We
played and wrestled and went on walks and went to the park. I was sad when
they passed away.

I also have three children. I can honestly say that I never experienced
anything close to the feelings I have for my children with the dogs. My
children look like me, and like the woman I love. They think deep thoughts and
ask questions and figure things out.

Instead of teaching them to sit or rollover (though you have to start
somewhere!) I teach them to reason and understand. I try to teach them as best
I can to be a good person. That's a process that has inspired deep
introspection and personal growth, as well as some of the best work I've done
in my career and my community.

Owning a dog is certainly _easier_ than having a child, by which I mean it's a
lot less work. So if _easy_ is your metric for _better_ you could probably say
something like "Better dogs than children." But using every other metric that
I can think of I would say the opposite.

~~~
zargon
Context. The author said it's better that they spoiled their dogs rotten than
spoiled kids rotten. She's not saying that dogs are better than children.

------
zeidrich
I find the first author's comment a bit funny. Not because of her decision to
not have children, but because of the reasons.

\- Diapers, Soccer Games, Braces, Tantrums. -

Those are pretty poor reasons to me.

A good reason to me is "I am fulfilled doing what I do and have no reason to
want children" or even "I have never wanted to have kids"

But the way she writes, it sounds like she actually really wanted children,
but was afraid that they would tie her down too much, ruin her life, and make
her do icky things like change diapers, and make her feel uncomfortable when
they threw tantrums. Her response to getting her tubes tied was "Freedom." as
though there was this specter of child-rearing that she was so afraid of. Her
followup states that she is afraid she would have been a bad mother anyways so
it was probably for the best.

As someone else said, the decision should be to have kids, not deciding to not
have kids. But the first author sounds more like she wanted kids but was
afraid, regrets the decision and is spending her time trying to justify, to
herself, that decision to get her tubes tied back at 30 now that she is
getting to the point of no return.

Second author would have sounded a lot better if he had written it in the
first person instead of second person. He's describing his experience, not
mine. It's pretty presumptuous to tell me how I feel, or will feel.

------
larrys
Would like to point out something here that might not be obvious to those
discussing the pros and con's of having kids.

Some people are really into kids and have made that choice and couldn't do
without kids. They enjoy kids like some of us enjoy computers. They want as
many kids as they can and don't think of any of it as a burden or "work". It's
just pure joy to them. Just like some of us like to program and "play" with
computers and find it fun. Then there are as you know people who don't derive
any enjoyment from kids and would rather just work and do what they want. Just
like there are people who find no enjoyment in doing the things that some of
us do for fun. Nothing wrong with that. Don't be pressured into having kids
just because it's what society seems to tell you is the best thing to do. It
definitely doesn't float the boat of everyone just as everyone is not all into
computers, cars, skiing, knitting or pets. Everyone is different.

------
danso
What's strange (sad?) is that I am most definitely adult age but, being
someone who lives in NYC and works at a startup, my mindset was "I wonder what
I'll do when I'm at that age?"...I guess I'm qualified to answered: for me,
not having kids now is not different than not having kids in college. Not
enough philosophically about my life (marital status ir probably the key one)
has changed since then. Very few of my friends, the same age or older in NYC,
have children either. And my guess is that this state of affairs could exist
for years to come until suddenly I'm thinking, "I wonder if I should've tried
to have children?"

------
mzarate06
_I wasn't "made" to be a mother. I had spared a child from having to have me
as one._

I believe some people are born with DNA that enables them to be great
athletes, scholars, parents, etc. I always tell my friends and family that
it's not in my DNA to have kids.

I honestly don't know the exact science behind DNA to know if my statement
holds true or not, but figuratively speaking it delivers the point that I
believe I lack the traits to be a good parent, including the motivation to
become one.

------
hudell
I'm still 24 and I have no intention of ever having a kid, but one year ago, I
thought I would never want a girlfriend again either. I still don't want a
girlfriend, but my best friends started some really serious relationship and
they can't be with me all the time anymore, so I had to start thinking about
dating again. Maybe some day something will happen and I will need to think
about having children too.

------
afterburner
"We've always had two or three dogs at a time"

Damn... all that time walking the dogs... coulda had a kid!

The thing about people hating shrieking children, that seems to be a very
strong sentiment among those who feel the same. I really wonder what it is,
because I really am able to tune it out, or at least not let it bother me
much. Is it about taking it personally, or is that a condescending (and
incorrect) theory?

------
jaequery
have a 3 and a 5 year old. coincidentally, they came into my life when i was
starting my own startup and i'd have to say it wasn't easy but doable. the
time i get to work on my projects are limited for sure but the time you get to
spend with your kids trumps any other activities. i can honestly say that you
haven't found happiness until you've got kids. just my two cents.

------
corporalagumbo
I think when you have kids, you accept that you are no longer fully in control
of your life; you are forced to let go and accept your humanity. This is quite
a healthy thing to do, among other things that sense of control was mostly
illusory anyway. People who don't do this and keep trying to swim against the
current of life end up pretty strange and warped I think.

~~~
pekk
You seriously think people who don't want to have kids are inhuman, strange
and warped?

~~~
corporalagumbo
"Inhuman" connotes differently from what I was trying to express.

As for the other two, perhaps I should specify: I believe that this is true
specifically for people who openly proclaim childlessness as their free
choice, who defend it as a superior option, and who counter-attack and try to
de-normalise having kids. People in other words who flaunt childlessness and
try to pretend that having kids is not really an important issue. All of the
people I have met who act in this manner have been strange, warped people. One
lady told me she couldn't stand the idea of an "alien parasite growing inside
of her." Others I have met scream about the horrors of childbirth, or the
disgusting, pathetic and needy nature of babies. None of them seemed to have
enough love in their hearts to care selflessly and unquestioningly for another
human being, and all seemed to be gripped by pretty nasty self-loathing fears
of their own humanity/mortality.

On the other hand, I am sure there are many people who for whatever reason
miss on out on having kids or choose not to for decent reasons, but maintain
good perspective about their decision/fate, and feel a measure of quiet regret
and curiosity about the road not taken, which helps keeps them soft and human.

------
bitwize
Pretty freakin' cool.

One thing the world doesn't need more of is Westerners living Western
lifestyles. In addition to the freedom to focus on _your_ life (if, like me,
you are too selfish to give your life away for the sake of a child then you're
better off not having a child), your conscience is soothed by the fact that
you're sparing the world additional Westerners.

------
SteveJS
My wife and I never wanted children. Neither of us needed to convince the
other. We did agree that, if either of us did change our mind, adopting would
be the right path.

I don't get the idea that you need to hate kids to decide that having your own
is something you don't wish to do.

------
usaphp
I don't understand why people are saying "I have so many things left to do and
so many places to visit, I can't have kids now". But you can do all that with
kids and have even more fun than doing all that by yourself...

~~~
aortega
>I don't understand why people are saying "I have so many things left to do
and so many places to visit, I can't have kids now". But you can do all that
with kids and have even more fun than doing all that by yourself...

Exactly. I have a 2 year old, two months after he was born I founded a
security company (so you could say I'm a hacker). I have visited more places
in this 2 years than in the 32 years before that. It's crazy sometimes, all
the work, no sleep, wife hates me when I come too late from work, etc. But I
love my son, I wish I could have 100 like him. Matter of fact I can, but wife
doesn't approve :) Protip: If you want kids DONT wait until you have a nice
job, house, car, etc. by that time you are in your 40's and it's way more
difficult.

------
rocky1138
I'm confused by the first author's response: part of the way through the
article she explains she regrets it and then quickly contradicts herself.

Did she truly regret it or not? Or has she not yet decided?

------
michaelkscott
_Protip:_ have or not have kids.

------
16s
"We've always had two or three dogs at a time"

A dog is not a human child. It's not even close. I've had dogs and kids. I
know the difference. Why childless people compare their dogs to human children
is beyond me. It's a dog. In the wild they run in packs and kill moose and
stuff. It's not a child and never will be, so please stop pretending that it
is.

~~~
Tichy
Also, I suspect dogs are actually a lot more work to maintain than kids.
Changing diapers was actually no big deal at all, but I can't imagine having
to pick up my dogs feces from the road (because if you are a nice dog owner,
you do that, right?).

~~~
aortega
>Also, I suspect dogs are actually a lot more work to maintain than kids.

Ha, lets see: a Dog can raise a litter of 6 puppies every year with no effort,
but to correctly raise 2 or 3 humans you need the time and income of at least
two adults, for a lifetime. Which looks more difficult to you?

~~~
Tichy
Not sure about that: have you had dogs raise 6 puppies in your house?

If you argue like that, kids can be raised much cheaper, too. And there are
even examples of kids being raised by wolves, I think? Hm, problem solved: get
a dog and a kid, let the dog raise the kid?

~~~
aortega
Have you raised a kid? lets try another example, you get fed up with the
puppies barking all day, you could legally kill them all in the spot (horrible
I know, but some people do that).

Now compare that with raising a kid. If HE don't like the food and gets too
thin, YOU may end in prison for kid neglecting. So you better cook nice food
to your kids. Still think it's easier than a dog?

~~~
Tichy
If you don't like raising the kid, you could look into boarding school or
adoption. Admittedly that's more expensive than killing a dog, but still.

Also we were talking about maintaining a dog, not getting rid of it.

------
danielrm26
I believe the future will see far fewer people having children simply because
it won't be necessary. I've captured a lot of this idea here:
[http://danielmiessler.com/blog/the-future-of-human-
identity-...](http://danielmiessler.com/blog/the-future-of-human-identity-and-
reproduction) .

Basically, as we move from 100,000 years ago to 1000 years from now we'll have
gone from needing to have children to survive to essentially living forever.
All the way back there was zero individuality, and we have more now, and we'll
have more in the future.

Individuality is the opposite of parenting. That's why women are still behind.
To a larger extent than men they live their lives for their children. And when
you pour your entire life force into another human, you simply cannot achieve
the same as someone who does that to create art or music or literature.

Men started being individuals before women did, and they are ahead as a
result. Women are catching up, though, and that's a good thing. The important
thing is that in the distant future we won't have the requirement.

When we are creative life forces with arbitrary bodies that live (effectively)
forever, what will be the need for reproduction? At that point we'll be
enlightened entities providing services for each other.

In short, reproduction is a vestigial requirement that we sill possess. And
because it's evolutionary it provides us pleasure, but it will give out to
advanced happiness in the future, and that happiness is the happiness of
creating art, music, literature, etc.

There will still be children for a long time, and they should be celebrated
and loved enjoyed when they do happen. But we've long since past the time
where everyone needs to make them. In fact, it's nearly becoming criminal to
keep making them when so many exist that have no loving parents.

As for the article's direct point of whether one can be happy without them, I
think the answer lies in how much happiness one can gain from being an
individual. If you are an author or a painter or a musician, and you truly
love what you do because it helps other people then you likely are tapping
into the same sensation that parents get--and likely something more as well.
For people like that, having children is not a requirement.

And since this should be the goal anyway, i.e. people CREATING things for
others to enjoy (as opposed to [http://danielmiessler.com/blog/parent-to-
child-propagation-o...](http://danielmiessler.com/blog/parent-to-child-
propagation-of-false-meaning)) then those who can do so should pursue this
course without fear.

As for those who simply feel elation from raising children, there should be no
shame in that either. Opposing nature in the name of a distant, future type of
happiness that may not be possible for that person is not likely to be
fulfilling.

It's not time to abandon parenthood. But it is time to adopt adoption, and to
look forward to a time when creation of art and beauty should become the goal
of everyone living rather than a default action of creating new humans who
will participate in a mostly meaningless means of making money so that their
offspring can do the same.

Anyway, sorry for the ramble. I think a lot about this.

