
GM is launching a $5K tiny electric car in China made for city commuters - prostoalex
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-4776002/GM-unveils-5K-EV-Tesla-affordable-Model-3.html
======
csours
[https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-09-19/china-
is-...](https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-09-19/china-is-said-to-
mull-lifting-foreign-ev-cap-in-free-trade-zones-j7resw2r)

In more recent news, China may allow foreign automakers to set up EV
brands/manufacturing without having a local Joint Venture Partner.

Currently, all outside automakers (GM, BMW, Volkswagen, Toyota, etc, etc) must
have a Chinese partner with at least a 50% stake.

It will be interesting to see if this comes to pass, and how the foreign firms
play it: ie, will GM choose Buick or Cadillac to be the EV brand in China?

Disclaimer: I work for GM, but not on anything related to China.

~~~
fragsworth
> Currently, all outside automakers (GM, BMW, Volkswagen, Toyota, etc, etc)
> must have a Chinese partner with at least a 50% stake.

I think non-Chinese governments should start fighting back on this. It's kinda
messed up that Chinese companies can do unlimited business in the U.S. and
Europe but then when we have a business that might sell to China, they take
more than half the profits.

~~~
vm
See this HN thread about historical global imperialism, under the guise of
business. It provides a counter perspective as poor countries were
historically fleeced by the business (and military) interests of Western
nations. Chinese "protectionism" seems reasonable, if not expected, through
that lens.

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15291385](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15291385)

~~~
apexalpha
The West telling poor countries that they should embrace free trade and WTO
rules is like LeBron James telling me that from now on we should settle all
disputes by shooting hoops.

China (and India) have all the right and incentives to protect their
continents from bad economic influences.

~~~
harryh
Trade isn't a zero sum competition like shooting hoops. When people engage in
it both sides get richer.

~~~
dragonwriter
> Trade isn't a zero sum competition like shooting hoops.

This is less true than naive abalysis suggests, because relative deprivation
is a significant source of disutility and trade that is “mutually beneficial”
before the effects of relative deprivation are considered is often so unequal
inn benefit distribution that the total net utility on one side is negative.

Classical comparative advantage arguments for trade tend to ignore the
disutility from relative deprivation.

~~~
harryh
Relative deprivation occurs when people learn about other cultures where
people have access to greater wealth. In the information age I don't think
this is avoidable even if we stop trading with each other.

~~~
dragonwriter
> Relative deprivation occurs when people learn about other cultures where
> people have access to greater wealth

That's one of many places where it occurs, yes (it also happens locally.)
Trade can exacerbate it, because even superficially mutually beneficial trade
doesn't advance the wealth on both sides equally, and the degree of difference
in material position, not merely it's binary existence or not, is a key factor
in the magnitude of the resulting disutility.

~~~
harryh
I can see how this theoretically might be the case, but I am unpersuaded that
lifting a billion people out of abject poverty in east asia was actually bad
for them because a bunch of westerners got relatively richer in the
transaction as well.

I suppose this is a matter of judgement though and not an objective fact so to
each their own.

~~~
dragonwriter
> but I am unpersuaded that lifting a billion people out of abject poverty in
> east asia was actually bad for them because a bunch of westerners got
> relatively richer in the transaction as well.

That's a nice strawman you've set up, but no one in the discussion actually
claimed that.

------
martin_a
I would totally buy that here in Germany...

100 miles would be enough to get me to work and back the whole week, I could
charge at the company and buying groceries would be fine with this size of
car, too.

Totally reminds me of my smart, which was basically the same size and also
this cheap. Buying an electric smart sets you back 21k € and you have to rent
the battery on top (65 € per month), so it´s no real option...

~~~
morganvachon
I've never been a fan of the Smart line of cars, if only because they are so
damned expensive here in the US ($15k for the base model, 39mpg). In my mind,
there's absolutely nothing "smart" about a gas powered two-seater with no
frills that costs several thousand more than a four-seater with all the
options from Nissan (Versa, $12k, 36mpg) or GM (Spark, $13k, 39mpg),
especially given comparable gas mileage and more power in the latter vehicles.
The only advantage the Smart ForTwo ever had in this country was easier
parking.

That said, this new EV in the same form factor as the Smart, at that insanely
low price, is a no-brainer for city commutes and perhaps even for
suburban/semi-rural. I know I could easily get a week's worth of daily driving
out of it, and like you, my company would allow me to charge at work. While we
would definitely take the traditional sedan on any long trips or vacations,
local trips would be fun and practical in a little EV.

Unfortunately, just like the Smart, it would be horribly overpriced if it ever
came Stateside.

~~~
ansible
_I 've never been a fan of the Smart line of cars, if only because they are so
damned expensive here in the US ($15k for the base model, 39mpg)._

I'd toyed with the idea of buying one when they first became available. But
the fuel efficiency wasn't as good as some other contemporary vehicle models.
And I'd be giving up a whole back seat. And performance was certainly anemic,
even by sub-compact car standards.

I'll probably just get a Prius next year. 50 mpg, as actually measured by
outside firms like Consumer Reports. That's so impressive. I'd love to get an
electric, but they're just too expensive still.

~~~
morganvachon
You know what's really impressive? Back in the early 2000s I bought a 1991
Honda CRX HF from a friend, and it got about 48 mpg even with 150k miles on
the odometer. That wasn't a hybrid car, just a hyper-efficient gasoline engine
in a lightweight body, and it still had enough pep to safely merge on the
highway.

One would think a modern plug-in hybrid would get well over 70 mpg.

~~~
Retric
1991 Honda CRX HF has 40 mpg in city driving when new.
[https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/noframes/7474.shtml](https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/noframes/7474.shtml)

A 2017 Prius has 58 city mpg.

You can beat that with an efficient driving style.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy-
efficient_driving](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy-efficient_driving)

So, they really are significantly better.

~~~
bostonpete
Your point may be correct, but it does seem like you're cherry-picking the
data. The difference in highway mpg is not nearly so significant:

1991 Honda Civic highway: 47 mpg

2017 Prius highway: 53 mpg

~~~
Retric
Stop and go conditions are the point of hybrid cars.

At steady highway speeds you gain nothing and need to haul extra weight. Which
is why long haul trucks are not all hybrids right now.

So, yes it's not a pure net gain without costs. But, I assume most people can
make that prediction fairly accurately.

~~~
ansible
_At steady highway speeds you gain nothing and need to haul extra weight._

The weight penalty isn't as bad as you might imagine. On the Toyotas, the
hybrid design replaces the regular transmission, flywheel, and torque
converter (if automatic) or clutch (if manual).

So the big weight penalty is mostly the battery pack.

------
mikeash
The title is pretty misleading. $5,000 is the price _after_ government
incentives. After some digging, I found this page with the pre-incentives
price:

[http://www.chinamobil.ru/eng/saic/baojun/e100/?view=props](http://www.chinamobil.ru/eng/saic/baojun/e100/?view=props)

If that's correct, then it starts at 93,900CNY which is currently a bit over
$14,000.

Still quite cheap (the Smart ED, which I believe is the cheapest EV you can
buy in the US at the moment, is $26,000) but not nearly as cheap as the title
implies.

~~~
dmoy
Is that 93k rmb price after taxes and stuff? 'cus cars can be quite expensive
in China not because of the car itself.

~~~
mikeash
Excellent question, I have no idea. If anyone can provide better pricing info
(track down the official Chinese web site for this car?) I'd love to see all
the details.

~~~
dmoy
Crap cus if that is after tax and the real price is half that or w/e, then
offering that car in the US would make me very happy.

~~~
GFischer
That car probably doesn't meet US safety standards (most of the Chinese cars
don't).

China has cars for 4.000 USD that don't make the American market, many built
in the same factory (we have lots of those here in Uruguay).

~~~
snaky
Tata GenX Nano XE is Rs 215,255 ($3,284), Bajaj Qute is $3000 in India.

But what is coming is a wave of EV in China, that might be around $1000.

------
toisanji
Why wouldn't something like this be released in America? What would the cost
of this car be if it was sold in America including the changes it would need
to comply with American standards? If it cost $10k, I would buy a couple of
them immediately. Its perfect for city driving.

~~~
skrebbel
> _If it cost $10k, I would buy a couple of them immediately._

Totally off topic, but I keep being surprised by how ridiculously rich the
average HN'er appears to be. You talk about buying cars like they're Mars
bars. :-)

~~~
agumonkey
From outside the US it seems crazy, but considering Tesla says 35K is
accessible price, 5K is barely nothing. Probably the cost of old used cars.

~~~
falsedan
In the states? $5k would get you a great used car, a 5 year old mid-range
sedan with <100k miles

Or you could buy 2-3 20 year old Civics/Camrys, use one as the primary and
cannibalise parts from the others to keep it going

~~~
24gttghh
Easier said than done! I can't imagine trying to find three of the same old
car and expect each one to have the same critical parts that aren't already
rusted out/failed. Where I am in the NE, road-salt destroys everything.

To add to that, $5K might work in southern states, but I haven't had much luck
finding something relatively new for $5K that didn't have serious rust issues
as well.

~~~
dsfyu404ed
Eventually you'll figure out that trying to inform a group of mostly (or at
least they're the largest minority if they're not the majority) Californians
about things like corrosion, winter, potholes, etc is a very lost cause...

Source: BTDT

~~~
24gttghh
Well SF is surrounded by salt water, so I would think that must have a
corrosive effect when it rolls in on the fog.

------
nikanj
I read the headline and in my mind said "probably somewhere outside North
America". Looks like I was right.

It's interesting how there seems to be no demand, or at least no supply, for
vehicles like this in US/Canada. This would be the perfect commuter vehicle
for our family.

~~~
loeg
Probably built to unacceptably low safety standards for the US market, at
lower labor prices and/or import tariffs than a car built for the US market.
I'm not saying they couldn't build a similar car for far less than $35k, but
it would probably cost more than $5k.

Either way: nothing about this is a model 3 competitor. They're in entirely
different segments.

~~~
abpavel
Europe is full of sub-$9K models like Toyota Aygo, which has 4 stars on NCAP.
So doesn't look like unacceptable safety standards are the reason.

~~~
swsieber
To paint with broad strokes:

I'd blame the demand on Europe's higher population density and better public
transit - there's not nearly as much "need" (demand?) for vehicles that can
make long, sustained trips.

~~~
beefield
I would blame primarily the higher gasoline price. When gas costs two times
more than in US, people suddenly start thinking more whether they really need
full size truck to take their groceries.

~~~
mschuster91
> When gas costs two times more than in US, people suddenly start thinking
> more whether they really need full size truck to take their groceries.

Might be a factor but take a look on the streets of Munich and you'll see a
lot of what I call "street-legal tanks"...

~~~
dagw
Based on personal observation, most of the big cars you see in much of Europe
are also expensive cars, meaning that they're used as a sign of wealth and
thus driven by people who don't care so much about gas prices. You see
relatively few big, cheap cars, especially compared to the US.

~~~
dom0
They're there, e.g. old delivery trucks.

~~~
dagw
True. I was referring to privately owned cars, not commercial vehicles.

------
ashwin67
An electric car seemingly better than this has been in the Indian market (and
some surrounding countries) for more than a decade now:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahindra_e2o](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahindra_e2o)

------
Animats
There's a market niche in China for cars in that size range. It's getting
harder and harder to get a car registration for an internal-combustion engine
car in Beijing. Electrics, though, can be registered much more easily. This
one has better specs than most of the ones from Chinese companies.[1]

[1] [http://tangland.en.made-in-
china.com/product/yjvxaLOlrrkS/Ch...](http://tangland.en.made-in-
china.com/product/yjvxaLOlrrkS/China-Chinese-Mini-Electric-Car-with-ISO-
Certificate.html)

------
koolba
How far off would a car like this be from passing US safety standards?

~~~
kozak
So far that it's not even considered to be a car. From legal point of view,
it's a heavy quadricycle: [https://www.euroncap.com/en/ratings-
rewards/quadricycle-rati...](https://www.euroncap.com/en/ratings-
rewards/quadricycle-ratings/)

------
donkeyd
I feel like these types of cars will get a huge market share once we get to
full autonomy and decreased ownership. Many people (like me) mostly use their
cars to commute, but get larger cars so they can use tem for vacations and
other times when a large car is convenient. Once you get used to be able to
easily and affordably get a large car pull up where you need it, I think
people will be fine with using tiny cars for their commutes. Especially if it
means a lower price.

------
rbanffy
I think this is less futuristic-looking but an overall better deal than the
Renault Tweezy I've been considering for some time now.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renault_Twizy](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renault_Twizy)

------
super_mario
I would buy this immediately to commute to work downtown for those rainy days
when biking isn't as pleasant or convenient.

But of course, it is not available in NA and if it were somehow I doubt the
price would remain $5k (which is roughly the same as a good carbon fiber road
bike).

~~~
quuquuquu
Why on earth would someone commite to work on a $5,000 road bike when a
similar experience could be had on a $500 road bike?

Yikes.

~~~
bfuller
Interesting question. I have always bought used steel frame road bikes from
the 90s and consistently drop people on expensive carbon fiber bikes.

If you aren't optimizing for many other factors already the amount of weight
loss from the lighter frame will have a minimal effect.

------
thewhitetulip
I am happy to say that Indian manufacturer Mahindra already has such a car in
India called E2O

------
baybal2
Chinese companies were selling not-bad corolla style sedans in Russia for
around $7000 for a few years.

$7000 is after taxes, and tarifs, with no subsidies

~~~
GFischer
They do still sell them ($8000 now), not sure if they're still sold in Russia
but they sell very well in Uruguay. The BYD F3 is ridiculously cheap! (and
good looking, I'm actually considering it when I manage to sell my 15 year old
Renault)

[https://asia.nikkei.com/Business/Trends/Next-big-battle-
in-C...](https://asia.nikkei.com/Business/Trends/Next-big-battle-in-China-
auto-market-is-over-50000yuan-cars)

------
themihai
Why does it have to look so ugly? Is good design really that expensive?

~~~
fragsworth
Good aesthetic design conflicts with other design goals (aerodynamics, range,
safety). It looks to me like they designed it for optimal functionality rather
than aesthetics.

------
DeepYogurt
Is it coming to the states?

------
api
It's ugly but it doesn't matter. If this hits the USA I will buy one last
year.

Goodbye petroleum age.

------
TekMol
GM DO 5K EV !!

------
azolli
Fucking sell it HERE already!

------
dba7dba
EV1 anyone?

------
cnewey
For those looking for a somewhat more reputable source for news on this
article, CNN[0] has a good piece.

[0] [http://money.cnn.com/2017/08/07/autos/gm-china-electric-
car/...](http://money.cnn.com/2017/08/07/autos/gm-china-electric-
car/index.html)

~~~
ddoran
> ... more reputable source ...

Sorry for the sidetrack, but this comment struck me as odd. perhaps it was
just a poor choice of words. FWIW, the last thing I thought I'd ever do was
defend the Daily Mail. While I fundamentally disagree with the Daily Mail's
politics and abhor their celebrity obsession, it is a 121 year-old newspaper
with the second highest circulation in the UK. I haven't heard their
reputation questioned before. No more than any other news source, that is.

~~~
cnewey
As others have said - many people (quite rightly) have concerns about
supporting the Daily Mail by giving it clicks, eyeball time, and advertising
revenue. Partly because of their reputation of being rather unpleasantly
right-wing when it comes to immigration, the economy, women's rights, etc; but
also partly because their reputation as a _truthful_ source of news is
resoundingly poor (as evidenced by the DM being disallowed as a source on
Wikipedia, their reputation for publishing embellished or downright untrue
stories, etc).

[edit]: After doing a bit more digging, it also turns out that CNN Money often
publishes companies' press releases almost verbatim. Oops.

------
driverdan
Daily Mail is a tabloid and not a reliable source.

~~~
ocdtrekkie
My opinion is that this sort of comment is unhelpful. Even Buzzfeed does some
quality honest to God journalism once in a while. I feel like a comment like
this should perhaps only happen if you can find something inherently wrong
with the article in question, not just displeasure for a source site in
general.

Daily Mail may not be the Wall Street Journal, but in many cases I have found
it serviceable, and in HN's case it is often just necessary for it to catalyze
discussion on the topic.

Perhaps go and find a better source for us, link it, and flag it for a mod to
consider swapping the article in the parent.

~~~
andrewtbham
It's true... Daily Mail is not as lowbrow as the Wall Street Journal :-)

------
bede
Perhaps the HN community could avoid sending pageviews to ostensibly
homophobic [0], racist [1] and generally vile establishments in the future? I
realise this article is none of these things, but it seems unlikely that there
would not be a viable alternative source.

[0]
[https://twitter.com/moranicly/status/908710539500642304](https://twitter.com/moranicly/status/908710539500642304)

[1] [https://leftfootforward.org/2015/05/daily-mails-racial-
scare...](https://leftfootforward.org/2015/05/daily-mails-racial-
scaremongering-on-filipino-killer-nurse-undermines-its-work-in-breaking-the-
story/)

~~~
technotarek
Your point would have been even stronger had you provided said alternative
source.

------
trafficlight
Because a midrange sedan in the US is comparable to a cheap Chinese car.

~~~
sergers
Not sure what your comment is specifically in response to, the article makes
the comparison slightly in terms of affordability, not functionality nor
luxury.

------
blux
Biased article; first sentence of the article:

> As Tesla prepares to launch its 'affordable' Model 3 at $35,000, General
> Motors just unveiled a tiny electric car that costs only $5,000.

Then later on:

> The $5,300 cost is after local and national subsidies.

~~~
owenversteeg
Most people care about the price they pay, not some other number somewhat
related to the price in a world with no government. The Model 3's national
subsidies are going to fade out before most people get them, so $35k vs $5k is
a fair number.

------
schnevets
I have driven a Smart car through Car2Go
([https://www.car2go.com/US/en/](https://www.car2go.com/US/en/)), and it is an
extremely unpleasant experience. The car handles terribly, and to reach the
low price point, the entire interior is made out of cheap, Happy Meal toy
plastic. I have also heard that maintenance is a pain and parts are expensive
because of the low market share.

I really don't understand who the hyper-cheap vehicle market in America is
aimed towards. If you have less than $8k to spend on a mode of transportation,
there are plenty of used beaters available. Repurposing an existing car will
also make it more environmentally friendly than a brand new device.

~~~
justonepost
Agreed, bizarre. There's a glut of used cars on the market.
[https://www.reuters.com/article/us-autos-used-
analysis/u-s-u...](https://www.reuters.com/article/us-autos-used-analysis/u-s-
used-car-glut-is-a-dealers-dream-automakers-nightmare-idUSKBN1880KE)

------
bradknowles
So, it’s an electric version of the Smart car, that doesn’t have any of the
safety features of the smart, and because it’s designed and built in China,
they don’t have to factor in things like paying their workforce a decent
paycheck, or insurance, or anything else?

Huh. Who would have guessed?

~~~
squeegee3
I signed up several minutes ago, specifically to respond to this baseless and
offensive comment, which appears explicitly written to attack China.

How do you know that it doesn't have comparable safety features to a smart
car? Or that the manufacturer's workforce doesn't have comparably good pay and
benefits? None of these claims about the company and the car is in the article
or publicly available to anyone - I looked.

What is your motivation here?

~~~
coupdejarnac
Well, when I was in a Tier 88 city in China a few weeks ago, I saw a bunch of
similar tiny electric cars. I asked my friend what was up with them, because I
didn't see them in Shenzhen or Beijing. She laughed and said they were known
for tipping over rather easily while turning.

Also, it's not uncommon to see people driving jury-rigged tricycles in the
boonies.

China is not a place I associate with high safety standards.

~~~
squeegee3
This anecdote doesn’t have anything to do with his specific and unfounded
claims.

Good work defending implicit nationalism with nonsense.

Have you ever been to the city limits of Mobile, Alabama? The place stinks of
ammonia. Based on this experience, America is not a place I associate with any
safety standards.

See how that works?

~~~
coupdejarnac
You haven't done much to substantiate your position either.

I can speak at length about things I have seen in China. I still love China,
but it's not above criticism.

~~~
squeegee3
How does one go about proving a falsehood with absolutely no basis in truth?
How do I prove the absence of allegedly subpar safety measures and private
payroll information of GM? This is not a scientific approach. I substantiated
my claim with reference to the article, and extensive information about GM’s
vehicle is not present on their website beyond this, which lists a number of
comparable safety features to the smart car:
[http://media.gm.com/media/cn/en/gm/news.detail.html/content/...](http://media.gm.com/media/cn/en/gm/news.detail.html/content/Pages/news/cn/en/2017/July/0721_SAIC-
GM-Wuling-Launches-Baojun-E100.html)

Let's stay on track here - this isn't about your irrelevant experiences
traveling in China. Trolls use exactly this tactic to waste the time of
dubious readers, in an apparent attempt to shift the burden of proof to
anybody that’d bother. I'm not going to disprove every vague, unrelated
anecdote you're willing to share.

I don’t know where you hail from, but as an anglo-American citizen, let me be
clear: this jingoistic willingness to support bullshit about American
manufacturing in China makes the USA look pathetic and fearful about the rise
of competitors. It is feckless to encourage English readers on HN with
nonsense - the net effect is to stir readers into underestimating the vast
safety engineering talent in China.

