
Citroën introduces a two-seat EV that costs €2,644 and then €19.99 a month - kevlar1818
https://techcrunch.com/2020/02/27/citroen-introduces-a-two-seat-ev-that-costs-e19-99-a-month/
======
PopeDotNinja
A small, cheap electric car with a 70km range in a dense European city makes a
lot of sense to me.

The speed limits in much of Europe are really low. In the USA we're used to
driving pretty fast on 2 way roads with wide lanes at over 80kph. That's not
much of Europe.

I've driven over 5,000km here in Scotland just this month. The speed limits in
most cities are about 60kph, and usually the max is 45kph. It is completely
normal here for people to share a single lane road to drive a car, ride a
bike, go for a run, and walk their dogs. It's just different than. America
where every street is a temple to the car gods and walking on many streets is
both weird and dangerous.

When I drove in Denmark in 2017, I would travel around the area outside and of
Copenhagen where the speed limits are often 50kph max. For example, from
Copenhagen, Denmark to Lyngby while avoiding highways...

[https://maps.app.goo.gl/8e5DtpUDmSQSp31h7](https://maps.app.goo.gl/8e5DtpUDmSQSp31h7)

...takes about 19 minutes (at 6 a.m. Friday, 28 Feb, 2020) to go 13km. You
just can't drive that fast in the built-up urban setting.

~~~
yakshaving_jgt
There is quite a difference in how speed limits are enforced in most of Europe
vs most of the USA. European authorities are generally _far_ more lenient and
reasonable.

~~~
mushtar
That's not true at all from my experience, quite the opposite.

For example, in California the speed of traffic on the highway is quite often
80-85mph in a 65mph zone, and not enforced. That wouldn't fly in Germany on
any road with a speed limit.

------
cashsterling
IMO, this is much closer to the direction we should be heading.

The typical 4-seat, 1600+ kg, to move around one or two people, at a total of
~200kg, is just stupid. Most of the energy is spent just moving the car...
very inefficient.

Also, the environmental footprint of manufacturing modern cars is horrible:
metals mining and refining, fabrication, waste from manufacturing, the energy
to do it all. Making Li-ion batteries is extremely energy intensive; which is
one reason they are so expensive.

~~~
amiga_500
We should live near stuff we use repeatedly. Schools. Work. Shops. Walk there.

This is the only solution with our existing technology.

~~~
ken
Have you seen the price of rent recently? That's a nice dream but half the
people I know can't afford to live within 25 miles of where they work. <$100 a
month in gas will save >$750 a month in rent. The economics aren't there, and
most people won't act against their own economic self interest.

~~~
Pfhreak
We should invest in excellent public housing, and not require it to fund its
own maintenance. Build more units, rent them below market rates.

~~~
papermachete
No, we shouldn't. I don't want my tax money being wasted on people getting a
better place to live. What's next, loners and the elderly should be outcast to
the outskirts?

~~~
Pfhreak
What? Right now people are being forced to the outskirts. Especially the
elderly, the poor, etc. A healthy supply of non commodity housing keeps them
in the neighborhood.

~~~
papermachete
That's just the free market. The same free market that decides a structured
bunch of bricks should cost 10x more in SF than Austin.

------
aeyes
These speed limited vehicles which can't go with the flow in a city are a
danger because people will be overtaking, cutting in and generally be annoyed
by them. This is already a problem with scooters and some motorbikes.

Cheap vehicles which are limited to 45 km/h have always existed, they were
never popular in Europe. Make it 60 and it will be usable for city driving.

~~~
intopieces
In what city is the flow of traffic more the 28mph?

This is something for San Francisco, not for jetting between its suburbs.

~~~
aeyes
This product is for the European market, in pretty much every European city
traffic flows at these speeds. Maybe not at rush hour but the day has more
hours.

In Europe cities are small on average and traffic flows ok. Big cities like
London, Paris and Berlin are the exception and even there you'll have problems
if your vehicles speed is capped at 45km/h.

------
Faaak
I'm very happy to see this type of vehicles emerge.

I own a twizy (that can go up to 80km/h, and 100km/hour with a software
modification, thus needing a licence), and it's the perfect urban vehicle. I
live a bit outside the city (15km from the city centre) and it's perfect: you
can park anywhere, you go the same speed than others and I even got a
(silghtly legal) tow bar for a small trailer.

If I recall correctly, the twizy is no longer produced because it's true that
it had some flaws: two seats one behind the other and no real windows (you
need gloves and a scarf in winter). So seeing this citroen car is a delight to
me. I hope they make a 80km/hour version too.

------
gregschlom
The fact that this doesn't require a driver's license to operate is a big deal
given how difficult and expensive (around 1000 euros) it is to get a driver's
license in France.

~~~
martin_a
That's rather inexpensive. I think in Germany you'll have to pay at least 1500
€ nowadays.

~~~
lostgame
Neither are inexpensive. Those fees are preposterous.

~~~
martin_a
Well, you will get about 30 hours of theoretical training and something like
12 or 15 hours of practical driving training for that. Also there are fees
included like costs for the theoretical exams, your driving examiner and the
driving license itself.

Costs obviously vary with your driving skills and whether you live in a rural
area or in town. I think the later is more expensive...

------
jacquesm
This more like a two person Sinclair C5 with a roof than an actual car. It
won't be allowed to go on the highway and you may have to ride it on bike
paths in some countries next to national roads between towns, which is a real
nuisance for the people on actual bicycles.

~~~
tpmx
I've had the misfortune of interacting with "vehicles" of this class here in
Sweden a few times. (I'm guessing the one's I've seen are crappy PRC imports,
legally pretending to be powered bicycles or similar.)

Every single time: They do something insanely stupid and dangerous, on actual
roads. (I guess they bought this because they were too stupid to get a
driver's license.)

They also tend to drive around 30 km/h at most, on roads meant for 50-80 km/h.

I can't wait until we banish them from the roads.

~~~
brianwawok
No safe for bicycles!! These aren’t safe on either road type.

~~~
tpmx
I guess on the road they're mostly a danger to themselves. I can't imagine a
real car getting more than a smallish-dent from even a head-on collision with
this thing. Lots of bloody carnage though.

Liability though...

------
Ididntdothis
I like the concept. I don’t really like that a lot of EVs are moving in the
direction of bigger , heavier and more power. For cities these super small
cars are the future hopefully and not 2 ton tanks.

~~~
dzhiurgis
Depends on the city/country.

Everyone seems to love comfort of SUV's, especially in new world where cities
were designed for cars. European cities just can't fit large cars, but move to
the country side and you can certainly enjoy utility of larger car (although
I'd argue actual 4x4 almost certainly overkill for 95% of roads).

I'd certainly love more heavy machinery to move to electric. Buses and trucks
are just so loud, benefit most from the torque and are heavily utilised
meaning much faster payback than sedan that sits 99% idle.

------
gt565k
6000 EURO starting purchase price.

Pretty good for a daily commuter in Europe. Especially considering how narrow
the streets are in Spain. Sounds like it's ripe for that market. Can't really
take this sucker outside the city though, but at that price, I'd certainly
consider it for a daily driver.

------
oliwarner
This is going to be furiously popular around the EU. We have old, dense
cities, very limited parking, restrictions on emissions, expensive fuel.

This fixes all of those, for cheap. 45mph limit isn't an issue when your
limits are 20-40mph.

I don't live in a city. I live in a relatively rural county in the UK but I
work from home and most of my journeys are <5 miles. Shops and school runs.
This makes sense for me, and will for a lot of people doing similar journeys.

------
Reedx
> _The Ami is not classified as a motor vehicle. As such, operators do not
> need a license and can be as young as 14 in France and 16 in other European
> countries._

Interesting. How did they get around that classification, and for something
that operates on the street?

~~~
walshemj
France has a special low power category for vehicles

~~~
darkwater
I would say all Europe has the same concept, or at least France, Spain and
Italy for sure. For gasoline vehicles they just need to be less then 50cc and
max speed less then 50km/h. They've been existing for years.

~~~
jacquesm
Typically they run on small, very dirty one cylinder diesels.

~~~
de_watcher
and they are extremely noisy and must be exterminated.

------
Jemm
Please, please bring this to Canada.

Nah, will never happen. People here are buying bigger and bigger cars. Is much
so that even mini vans are being discontinued.

------
zwieback
Cool idea but the orignal Ami 6 looked way cooler. I remember those from my
childhood.
[http://www.citroenorigins.co.uk/en/cars/ami-6](http://www.citroenorigins.co.uk/en/cars/ami-6)

~~~
mmoez
I've never seen an Ami 6 on road. But there were a few Ami 8 cars in my
neighborhood when I was a child:
[https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Citroen_Ami_8_Februa...](https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Citroen_Ami_8_February_1973_mfd_1972_602cc.jpg)
.

------
mariushn
This is amazing. Finally, a well-priced non-polluting urban mobility solution.

I can't believe on HN this has only 160 upvotes in 10 hrs. HN audience seems
climate-conscious. But if it's not a Tesla solution, you don't care. Sigh.

~~~
ant6n
> Finally, a well-priced non-polluting urban mobility solution.

Bicycles have been around for a hundred years. But if its not an electric car
you don’t care. Sigh.

~~~
mariushn
Bicycles don't protect you from bad weather. I have a bike.

~~~
dasKrokodil
Some do:

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Velomobile](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Velomobile)

------
agumonkey
Applaud for trying. For urban areas this seems like a no brainer. A ton of
people use big cars for no reason, struggle to park..

Maybe it will fail but kudos for putting it out there.

------
bibinou
Range is 70 km (45 miles), according to French media.

------
sunstone
As the world moves to "super e-bikes" (40kph, 200km range) a lot about urban
transportation will be transformed. We haven't hit the inflection point yet,
maybe ten years from now. Currently the market is moving so fast though, you
can see the writing on the wall.

~~~
harambae
I think many people still worry about safety issues with bicycling, especially
at higher e-boosted speeds. Technological advancements would have to include
things like airbag helmets.

------
tromp
> The Ami is available for purchase from €6,000 (including VAT).

That's way cheaper than the €14.995 Estrima Biro [1] that it will be competing
with here in the Netherlands.

[1] [https://biro.nl/en/model/biro-urban/](https://biro.nl/en/model/biro-
urban/)

~~~
himlion
Is it not similar to the Renault Twizy? That one starts at €7,350 according to
wikipedia.

~~~
Faaak
It's more or less the same. But the Twizy can go up to 80 km/hour (well, the
model needing a licence).

I love my twizy, it's the perfect city vehicle

------
frandroid
Ils auraient pu l'appeler la 2CE!

------
8fingerlouie
The list of advertising partners on Techcrunch is virtually endless, and the
"founding partners" cannot be disabled directly, which (after 2-3 clicks) is
revealed to consist of Amazon, Google, Microsoft, Facebook, DataXtrade and
more...

that link is gonna remain blue.

------
wenc
I wonder if it will be regulated like a golf cart.

Unlike bicycles/scooters, it's still going to take up parking spaces.

Without licensing, I wonder if it will introduce a new class of drivers who
won't know the rules of the road and introduce more unpredictability into
driving.

~~~
close04
They already exist, microcars like Aixam are pretty popular with people who
don't have a license (in general teenagers over 14/16, or drivers with
suspended licenses).

~~~
wenc
Interesting -- how do drivers/pedestrians perceive them in France?

~~~
wott
They are not a subject for pedestrians, they are just cars.

As far as other drivers are concerned, the only problem is that over the years
they started looking more and more like 'regular' cars, so 'regular' drivers
coming behind are surprised because they wrongly estimate their speed (well in
fact they don't estimate anything, they have the mental model that cars always
drive around 80 km/h, and bicycle around 15 km/h, so they are surprised both
ways when a car or bicycle goes around 40 km/h).

But drivers must be reminded that normal roads are not a space reserved for
cars, motorbikes and lorries cruising all the time near the speed limit, but
can be rightfully used by any kind of vehicles (tractors with or without
trailers, bicycles, horse-drawn carriages and so on), and that they can be
encountered moving at any speed in ]0, speed limit] for a good reason.

~~~
wenc
Thanks for that. To what extent do these drivers know to follow the the more
complex rules of the road, say left turns, four way stops, roundabout
etiquette etc. without having gone through any licensing?

I want to say the same issue applies to cyclists, but then the compliance rate
of cyclists is not high. The only consolation is that cyclists loo
sufficiently different from cars that drivers give them a wide berth.

~~~
benhurmarcel
> without having gone through any licensing?

You actually need an AM license, which is a 1 day training.

~~~
wenc
Fascinating

 _Voitures sans permis (VSPs) can be driven by anyone aged 14 and up and are
limited to 45 kph—just 28 mph. VSPs can’t be driven on expressways or
highways, since a 28-mph top speed and, well, you get it. Drivers must only
acquire what’s known as an AM category license, which requires a seven-hour
training course, of which only four hours are spent driving on roads. Those
born before 1988 require no license at all._

[https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a15345640/an-aixam-to-
grin...](https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a15345640/an-aixam-to-grind-a-sub-
class-of-tiny-french-cars-that-caters-to-drunks-the-elderly-and-kids/)

------
mongol
The problem I think will be how it will fit in the streets. Bicycles that are
slower than regular traffic are easy to overtake. But this probably not as
easy. At the same time, I would not want to share bicycle lanes with this
vehicle if I am cycling.

~~~
boudin
Most people who have this kind of vehicles drives in cities. It's rare to see
those on roads outside and overtaking thise is still easier than a tractor. On
highways this category of car is, for obvious reasons, not allowed.

------
solarkraft
[https://outline.com/k6padz](https://outline.com/k6padz)

I can't understand why anyone still shares TechCrunch links. It's inaccessible
without accepting their cookies.

------
noir_lord
As a motorcyclist this fills me with dread.

There are enough bad drivers here _despite_ our quite tough licenses - a metal
box at 28mph with a battery on board will still ruin my entire day.

------
iambateman
This looks cool!

I wonder if it would be feasible/worth it to incorporate a pedal assist system
to lengthen the range.

Also I would love a convertible version.

What about safety? Especially rolling? Would this work in the US from a
regulatory standpoint?

~~~
jascii
At a maximum speed of 28mpg it might classify as an electric bicycle, just
like for instance the ELF:
[https://organictransit.com/](https://organictransit.com/) Some states however
define a bicycle as having a maximum of 3 wheels, so that might be an issue.

------
skelet
Better link in French

[https://www.citroen.fr/ami/duree-1-an-et-
plus.html](https://www.citroen.fr/ami/duree-1-an-et-plus.html)

------
eltondegeneres
The car doesn't use its left turn signal in the demo video. Good thing the
child wasn't been any slower exiting the crosswalk, or the car could have hit
them.

~~~
scarejunba
Oh, now I know why American car ads have those warnings that an ad is made
under different conditions than normal driving.

------
jakecopp
Does anyone know if something like this would fly in Australia, road law wise?

~~~
valzam
If it is not a car I suppose you will have to wear a helmet inside ;)

Not sure if I would want to drive this in Australia though. Coming from Europe
the size of your roads here is crazy. Lots of 2-3 lane inner city roads with a
speedlimit of 60. You'd be a sitting duck in an Ami..

------
nprateem
So something that looks like a car, that takes up the space of a car, that
goes at car speeds and that can be driven on public roads by someone without a
licence... expect a quick change to the law after the first few fatalities...

~~~
MrFoof
This is no different than most of the existing, _" voiture sans permis"_
available in France, that have been allowed since 1947. Except this actually
seems a ton safer than most existing, "voiture sans permis" that I've actually
seen throughout France.

And yes, existing _" voiture sans permis"_ are not known to be anywhere near
as safe as a full size car (or high-end quadricycles like the Aixam). Yet like
them, this is dirt in terms of cost, and far better than most of the existing
options that have been around for over 70 years.

~~~
jobigoud
A.k.a "pots d'yaourt".

------
amai
Top speed 45 km/h. That is too low for most cities.

------
jbverschoor
Still useless if you pay €7,50 per hour for parking

------
jbverschoor
So it’s a biro?

------
aganame
That revolting site breaks the back button.

------
jonas21
> _It can be rented long term at a cost of €19.99 (including VAT) per month
> with an initial payment of €2,644._

Seems like a bit of a stretch to call that €19.99/mo when you also need to pay
the equivalent of 11 years of rent up front.

~~~
oska
Yes, I'd say a title change is in order.

~~~
dang
Ok, we've added €2,644 to the cost above.

------
californical
Seems a little misleading that it's €19.99/mo after a €2644.00 down payment.
Still cheap, but not THAT cheap.

------
html5web
“It can be rented long term at a cost of €19.99 (including VAT) per month with
an initial payment of €2,644 (including VAT). The Ami can be rented through a
car-sharing service for up to a day at a rate of €0.26 per min...”

Looks like it costs €2,644 initial payment + €19.99 a month.

------
Keyframe
Great, but no way in this timeline you will be able to get on a road with this
without a license. Even if that’s the case it will change in an instant.

~~~
boudin
There's already plenty of cars that can be driven without licence in France.
That's not new:
[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quadricycle_(EU_vehicle_clas...](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quadricycle_\(EU_vehicle_classification\))

~~~
close04
They are actually very popular in many countries among drivers who have their
license suspended but depend on having a vehicle. There are even rental
companies that basically work exclusively with this type of scenario.

------
slg
>It’s electric, cheap and doesn’t require a license. In short, it’s less of a
car and more of an electric scooter with two seats, doors and a heater...The
Ami is not classified as a motor vehicle.

This just screams safety issues to me. I'm not sure I would want to drive down
some city streets in one of these.

~~~
GaryNumanVevo
It's not designed for the US market where SUVs and Truck are the most popular
vehicle. It's classified as a quadrocycle which is a lightweight vehicle
distinction in France and other EU countries.

