
Bitcoin mining heats homes for free in Siberia [video] - prostoalex
https://qz.com/1117836/bitcoin-mining-heats-homes-for-free-in-siberia/
======
wlesieutre
Didn't watch the video, but a quick point on how the energy efficiency of this
works out:

Electric heaters are 100% efficient at turning electrical energy into heat.
All the energy they take in, that's where it goes.

Bitcoin mining (and computers in general) are basically in the same boat.
There's some ancillary energy use for blowing air around or shining lights or
making sound waves, but for the most part the electricity turns into heat and
does some math along the way.

Sounds great! Perfectly efficient! But the important caveat is that heat pumps
are (effectively) more than 100% efficient. They can take 100 watt of
electricity to transfer 300 watts of heat from outside to inside.

It's not technically a measure of "efficiency", we call this the "coefficient
of performance" instead. Or we call it the "seasonal energy efficiency ratio",
which is the same thing except multiplied by some constant factor because
somebody wanted a scale that went up to higher numbers. Or for heating, the
heating season performance factor, which I forget the specifics of, but is
geared toward how well it works pumping heat in from outdoors when your heat
source (outdoors) is very cold.

In short, it's just as efficient as any other electric heater, but heat pumps
are 3-4x better than that.

~~~
andbberger
This is silly, CPUs are 100% efficient at converting electrical energy into
heat. Where do you think that 'ancillary energy' is going?

Obviously heat pumps are more efficient - that's kinda beside the point
though.

The main point here is you can take anywhere you had a resistive heating
element and replace it with a mining chip, and you're now doing something
useful with that energy you were turning into heat anyway.

Yes heat pumps are more efficient but there are plenty of places in your house
you have plain old heat elements that aren't going away (water heater).

~~~
wlesieutre
>Obviously heat pumps are more efficient - that's kinda beside the point
though.

Only obvious if you know what a heat pump is!

Plenty of people will hear "Electrical heating is 100% efficient" and
interpret that to mean it's the ideal solution, when in a lot of cases it's
just about the worst.

But yes, if you have electrical heating, you could throw in some CPUs or ASICs
instead and they'll work just as well. The return on investment for
cryptocurrency may drop off a cliff when the next silicon process comes out
and mines more for the same energy, it's hard to see people wanting to keep
upgrading their baseboard heaters on the same cycle that computers get
replaced.

Whether it's money positive vs resistive heating will depend on A) price of
your electronics relative to a cheap electric heater, B) how it stacks up vs
future electronics if the payoff doesn't happen while it's new, and C) how
insane the cryptocurrency markets get.

~~~
dragonwriter
> Whether it's money positive vs resistive heating

Strictly speaking, isn't it just a special case of resistive heating?

~~~
khedoros1
It's resistive heating that does something that most resistive heating doesn't
do: generate some level of additional income in the form of cryptocurrency.

~~~
Retric
Only if you need full power heat 24/7 365. If you ever want to turn it off
then it's costing you deprecation on very expensive hardware, vs a simple
heating element.

Remember, few things need constant heat output 24/7 365, otherwise your going
to want to generate some or all of your heat from other sources.

~~~
mark-r
That's the brilliant part - doing it in Siberia where the heat is almost
always welcome. Iceland might be good too.

~~~
Retric
Siberia gets warm in the summer as in it can hit 100+f, and you need a lot of
insulation minimal heating even at 50f. So, not really.

------
acjohnson55
Of course, it would be cool if Bitcoin didn't require throwaway computation.
Then we could use this computation for something that's actually valuable,
like protein folding, or something, and still make use of the waste heat.

~~~
ArchReaper
>it would be cool if Bitcoin didn't require throwaway computation

Sure, but that's a technology that does not exist. If you can figure out how
to create a blockchain-like concept, where the 'proof of work' actually
contributes to humanity, you have invented the next big thing.

Edit: Reading the comments below me, it looks like this is a space that is
being actively explored. Exciting!

~~~
pfraze
You can have blockchains without decentralized consensus. It's how Certificate
Transparency works.

You have the contract host record all operations and output on a ledger, and
then ship that ledger/log out to monitors. This improves the auditability of
the system, and enforces the backend logic as a contract. Deviations from the
code are detectable by replay, and then provable. Flag the host and readjust
your trust.

You can also find ways to reduce the cost of switching between traditional
hosting models, such as using data-sharing networks (Dat, IPFS) to quickly
"hydrate" a new host, and good ole configurable endpoints to make the switch.

It's the opposite of a trustless network; it's a trust network built on
accountability. You watch hosts for bad behavior (such as the violation of the
backend contract) and reconfigure trust around violations. No decentralized
operation, but much less wasteful than PoW.

~~~
eternalban
> You can have blockchains without decentralized consensus.

That's pretty much something like Git.

~~~
pfraze
Yeah, though we don't use Git to monitor active systems.

------
Jhsto
I used to increase my PC voltages every winter at my parents wooden heated
house near the arctic circle. The room temperatures could drop all the way to
16C (60F) during the night. That allowed easy overclocks on my Athlon
processor from 3 to 4Ghz. I still had to wear wool socks though, because the
air pushing from the central unit would cause an annoying breeze of cold air
onto my toes in the always chilly room.

~~~
nerdponx
_The room temperatures could drop all the way to 16C (60F) during the night_

That's what you call cold up in the arctic? That's definitely how cold my NYC
apartment is every night from November through March. Heat is expensive!

~~~
Jhsto
Interesting, I didn't know NYC apartments get so cold! But yeah, maybe it's
just me, but I prefer sleeping in a warm (or hot) rooms.

Also, it's still actually cold outside. Coldest mornings the year I left my
parents apartment were around -40C (-40F). I personally withdraw from going
outside by choice after it gets below -30C (-22F). Below that point, I start
having random nose bleeds of blood. People from the south may pass out.

~~~
wolco
In Canada schools are stiil open in -40C weather. We only get a few days like
that in the south.

------
where_do_i_live
So - I actually physically run 2 mining rigs - each with 6 Nvidia GTX 1070s -
pulling 1020 Watts each. They each heat a room fairly nicely and I make around
maybe $300 in profit from just selling coins per month. This is AFTER I
subtract my electricity costs which for these 2 rigs is about $160 per month.
I have not quantified the heating benefits but I'd estimate it at maybe $20 a
month. I built them back in March/April for $6k total, and I've made twice
that so far - paying for itself already and extra $$$ - plus I still have the
hardware going or I can resell it at a profit even thanks to the shortage of
high end video cards due to all these crypto miners like myself.

In the summer, I had the rigs in 1 room air cooled with just the windows open
- no problems with 90 degree F days at all. Fun project, and so far quite
successful.

~~~
himlion
But if you'd bought $6k worth of ethereum outright in march it would be worth
$90k now. That's why I haven't started mining, it only seems profitable in a
sideways market.

~~~
where_do_i_live
That has a different risk profile entirely.

I could always resell the video cards I bought at near cost. Buying
speculative coins is another matter entirely. Further, I'm not mining ETH - if
I took your advice on the coin I am mining I would have a net LOSS not gain.
You should take another look at the economics of mining, I think you have a
few aspects misunderstood.

~~~
sliverstorm
_I could always resell the video cards I bought at near cost_

You sure about that? There are so many miners these days, if the mining market
tanks, the used graphics card market will be flooded and prices will likely
plummet.

~~~
where_do_i_live
I can only speak about right now - not the future. I've already made more than
my investment so not a big deal for me.

~~~
arcticfox
Right, but we're talking about the past decision's risk profile. Obviously it
worked, but it could have gone a number of different ways.

------
asavinov
There is a startup which installs their servers in private homes and other
buildings where they are used for heating. They essentially connect the market
of server computing and heat.

[1] [https://cloudandheat.com](https://cloudandheat.com)

[2] [https://www.informationweek.com/cloud/heating-your-house-
wit...](https://www.informationweek.com/cloud/heating-your-house-with-cloud-
computing/d/d-id/1317475)

------
_greim_
This reminds me of a story; a buddy of mine during my college days lived in a
solitary townhome adjoining a million-watt microwave emitter room. The thing
produced enough waste heat to warm the apartment in the dead of winter, even
with all the doors and windows open, plus the adjoining warehouse which was
several times the volume of the dwelling.

I was envious at the time, although now I wonder about the health implications
of the setup, and whether it was strictly speaking legal. The guy is alive and
well today, fortunately.

~~~
aidenn0
It was probably fine; microwaves are fairly easily blocked by even a very thin
metal screening. The main health issue with microwaves is the heating caused
by it.

The eyes are usually what is damaged first because they tick all 3 boxes of:

* Easily damaged by heat

* High water content

* No good way of shedding heat

Testicles hit the last two, and the degree to which the first is true is
debated.

~~~
_greim_
> It was probably fine; microwaves are fairly easily blocked by even a very
> thin metal screening.

That makes sense in retrospect, given we humans routinely stand with our noses
pressed against thinly-screened microwave oven windows waiting for food to
heat, apparently without health effects!

------
maaaats
As a kid I always tried to convince my mom to let me play computer games to
heat our house during winter. She didn't believe me. But it was probably not
the efficiency of the heating that stopped her from letting me game all day,
though

~~~
ComodoHacker
Did you tell her that you move you body when you're really engaged and
generate additional heat by burning your calories? That might swing the
balance to your favor.

~~~
firethief
Body heat is actually 2-3 orders of magnitude from being cost-effective,
unless there's a food source much cheaper than typical lard. Edibility adds
quite a premium to calories.

In case anyone is wondering.

------
hw
There are many other cases of people heating homes with mining rigs,
especially in places that has a year-round cold climate. Electricity savings
in cooling the rigs as well as heating the home + the profit from mining,
makes the whole thing worth it...

... IF you can tolerate the noise that the rigs generate

~~~
raihansaputra
There are passive cooling rigs for high performance computers (LinusTechTips
video). If this is a valid market, one could make prebuilt silent rigs as
radiators.

------
andreyf
Towards the end of the video, the owner makes a point that this democratic
distribution of mining power instead of large miners controlling the network
is a good idea. Curious to hear more about this -- does anyone know good
writing re: Democratic / distributed benefits of mining?

~~~
seanalltogether
The bitcoin protocol is somewhat at odds with the desired goal of distributed
mining. Only 1 entity gets the reward of mining a block, and only 144 blocks
are mined per day. You are encouraged to join the strongest pools to have the
highest chance of making money. According to blockchain.info, the top 6 mining
pools control 75% of the market.

[https://blockchain.info/pools](https://blockchain.info/pools)

~~~
ric2b
Statistically the reward is the same whether you're solo mining or in a pool.
Actually less in a pool because they take a cut of the profits. The benefit of
being in a pool is that you get the (smaller, since they're shared) rewards
more frequently instead of waiting possibly years until you solo mine a block.

But there's really no reason why you have to be in the biggest pool, if you're
in a pool with a 1/144 share of the hashrate you'll already be getting daily
income, why do you need it to be more frequent?

Note: I think solo miners also get a bit more average latency when receiving
bloks, I'm not sure if that offsets the cut the pools take enough to make the
expected value of being in a pool higher or not.

------
evv
This technique could pair nicely with another problem we have- storing solar
power.

In theory, you could build a system which uses solar power to mine bitcoin
during the day, and store that heat somewhere (like an underground tank of
water) until you need to warm your house at night.

Of course its not a perfect solution because the coldest places are obviously
also the places which get the least sunlight.

~~~
kogepathic
_> and store that heat somewhere (like an underground tank of water) until you
need to warm your house at night._

Just install a solar water system if you want to heat your house, it'll be
more efficient at generating heat than solar panels.

 _> This technique could pair nicely with another problem we have- storing
solar power._

Actually the ability to quickly turn on and off mining operations has other
more practical uses for excess energy. Right now there are situations during
the day where utilities have to idle base-load plants because renewable
energies produce enough to satisfy grid demand, or they even have to pay
another utility to take their excess power in case they can't quickly throttle
their base load (e.g. with Nuclear).

Having a large crypto currency mining pool the utility could use during these
times would enable them to use the excess energy and generate a profit from
it, instead of paying another utility to take their excess energy.

------
Pxtl
Hm, I've politely ignored bitcoin for a long time, but I live in a cold
climate and do make some use of electrical heating. Is there a good user-
friendly miner setup I could use to supplement a space-heater? I assume a low-
power linux box running some bitcoin-oriented package with a bunch of asics
shoved into the USB ports?

~~~
fonosip
Try this linux pendrive for gpu mining [https://ba.net/zcash-eth-miner-
os/](https://ba.net/zcash-eth-miner-os/)

------
top256
There is this company too:
[https://computing.qarnot.com/](https://computing.qarnot.com/)

It's built on the same idea but a more mature and more general solution to the
same problem.

~~~
aisofteng
Hah! Qarnot is a good name for this:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carnot_heat_engine](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carnot_heat_engine)

------
subleq
How much are they paying for power?

~~~
in_hindsight
In Siberia power is paying for you!

Seriously though in Irkutsk electricity is about 0.017usd per kilowatt/hour

~~~
jsmthrowaway
For comparison, PG&E E1 baseline for California is currently $0.19979/kWh. As
in, 12x more. God help you if you wander from baseline.

[https://www.pge.com/tariffs/tm2/pdf/ELEC_SCHEDS_E-1.pdf](https://www.pge.com/tariffs/tm2/pdf/ELEC_SCHEDS_E-1.pdf)

Even using a time-of-use plan like E6 (which they don't allow any more), off-
peak is $0.16728/kWh in the summer, and peak summer is $0.35933/kWh. The
ETOU-A and ETOU-B plans they're pushing people toward bottom out at
$0.17279/kWh winter off-peak, up to _$0.36335 /kWh_. Again, all baseline
figures. Electric Vehicles and over-baseline (read: mining) will punish you to
death.

[https://www.pge.com/tariffs/tm2/pdf/ELEC_SCHEDS_E-
TOU.pdf](https://www.pge.com/tariffs/tm2/pdf/ELEC_SCHEDS_E-TOU.pdf)

In those rate plans, PG&E apparently spends more on transmission alone than
Siberian customers entirely pay for service. Also, good luck explaining the
plan structure to someone; it took me 20 minutes of edits just to put this
comment together coherently.

~~~
evgenyq
Oh, you have all that med insurance shit for those smarties who can handle
electricity rate plans.

~~~
jsmthrowaway
CARE doesn't help as much as you'd think, but yes.

------
mark-r
There's nothing new about this. I remember a story from the days of
mainframes, where a data center had to be redesigned - they had built it
without heating, expecting the mainframe to provide all the heat the building
needed in the winter. By the time they got around to buying a machine to put
in it the technology had progressed and it was much more power efficient than
they had planned.

~~~
aisofteng
>the days of mainframes

Those days aren't over. Mainframes are still in serious use, at least in
banks, and (I didn't know this until going to find the following link)
apparently also have Blockchain support: [https://www.ibm.com/us-
en/marketplace/z14](https://www.ibm.com/us-en/marketplace/z14)

------
em3rgent0rdr
ASPLOS 2008 conference on Wild and Crazy Ideas already suggest the more
general version of this: "Computation: A Byproduct of Home Water Heaters"
[http://cseweb.ucsd.edu/~swanson/WACI-
VI/](http://cseweb.ucsd.edu/~swanson/WACI-VI/)

------
vden
Seems to be quite popular solution when Russian winter is coming.

Couple of weeks ago there was an ethereum-mining heater Comino
[https://comino.io](https://comino.io)

These guys say they use optimized liquid cooling to transfer heat from GPUs to
the room effectively (and earning like $10-$15 a day).

------
rajeshp1986
Earning $430 for month by bitcoin mining. What about the electricity costs?

If you factor in electricity costs and the money they spent on
infrastructure(GPU's and high-end machines), it is a dumb idea. They could
have spent $30-50 on heating equipment instead.

~~~
smsm42
Electricity costs are probably subsidized (since otherwise in places where it
gets super-cold it wouldn't look nice if people froze to death for inability
to pay their power bill).

Electricity costs in Irkutsk (place where the place that the video is
describing is located) are 0.7 RUR per 1 kWh for rural areas. That's about 1
cent per kWh. For comparison, California's lowest tariff in about 20c per kWh
and if you are consuming a lot (which you'd do if you mine) you'll get over
35c/kWh. If you qualify for low income subsidy, though, you might get it for
significantly cheaper :)

------
jimnotgym
Is there a way into mining that is scalable? I mean some way where you don't
have to shell out $8k up front and can build-as-you-save? There are lots of
ways to save money on heating for people with $8k to spare

------
jmkni
Dumb question...

How much does a Bitcoin mining rig usually last for before it needs replaced?

~~~
Gudin
Same as any other rig for anything. Higher load usually doesn't make much
difference in lifetime.

The problem with components is that they can break one day after you bought
it, or last 50 years.

For example, in CERN they bought 100,000 disk drives for their huge amount of
data. Lets say disk lifetime is 1M hours which is 114 years, so sounds pretty
good. But that means, on average, every 10 hours one of their drives will
fail.

------
hennsen
O once had a little freelance gig for a company that did offer computing
resources to one part of their customers and heat for houses and water to the
other with just that concept. cloud & heat

------
jimson3432
It's nothing new. Moreover, it's going to be very difficult for individual to
mine anything using their PC nowadays.

------
kornakiewicz
Back in these day, you were installing Gentoo.

------
nordic
They should be mining Bitcoin Cash instead.

~~~
zeep
Many miners switch back and forth... To get the best returns.

------
senthil_rajasek
I only turn on the heat when I want heat. Mining bitcoin to heat my home seems
backwards.

~~~
jmkni
Might be different if you live somewhere permanently cold

~~~
senthil_rajasek
That's right may be they never leave home or go on a vacation.

------
cgb223
Can someone talk me out of using this to heat my apartment in San Francisco?

~~~
smsm42
Check out electricity prices in SF. Especially the top tier. You probably
would be better off burning small-denomination bills for heating. Unless of
course you tricked your landlord into covering electricity costs, in which
case mine away until police comes to evict you :)

------
baybal2
>$460 a month

The rig looks kinda tiny even for a pooled mining setup with such output.

------
justinzollars
Ethereum mining put my apartment in SF to about 88 degrees last summer.

------
sergeyfilippov
How to measure the clickbait coefficient of the headline:

A: imagine the situation the headline literally describes ( Bitcoin mining
heats homes for free in Siberia)

B: read what the article describes (A cottage that’s heated for free with
bitcoin mining)

clickbait_coefficient = the distance between A and B

------
SonicSoul
hmm.. Airbnb for bitcoin miners as space heaters?

------
nnfy
I can attest, I have a 9 card mining setup which pulls around 330w per card
24/7\. In the summer when it was 70-80 degrees outside it was enough to keep a
large basement in the 90s, plus the rest of the house uncomfortably warm. I
had to purchase an AC to keep the place livable.

Now that winter is coming around I look forward to the extra heating.

There seems to be discussion in these comments about mining for the purpose of
heating a home, but the heating is a bonus. You're making money AND saving on
energy, that's the important part.

Plus, in my opinion, a constant heat source like a mining rig is preferable to
an older cycling central system which can be slightly disturbing as it loudly
cycles on and off throughout the day...

