
Inmates offered reduced sentences for birth control procedure - abhi3
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-40677725
======
brandonhsiao
If getting 30 days shaved off your sentence is such an appealing offer that an
optional bargain involving sterilization is considered coercion, surely it's
_putting people in prison_ that's inhumane here?

~~~
andrei_says_
Prison in the U.S. _is_ cruel and unusual punishment, as well as an
institution of modern slavery.

Race and income are the highest predictors of whether a person would end up in
prison.

Both of these speak loudly about us as a society and about our true values.

~~~
fixxer
In the case of drug crimes, I agree with you. Appeal of the logic starts to
break down when you scale it out for violent offenders. In fact, I find the
lax sentencing in Scandanavian countries appalling.

~~~
ceejayoz
> In fact, I find the lax sentencing in Scandanavian countries appalling.

Do you find their low recidivism rates similarly appalling?

~~~
fixxer
I find their population bares little resemblence to Chicago's.

~~~
ceejayoz
We're not talking about Chicago, are we?

You said "In fact, I find the lax sentencing in Scandanavian countries
appalling." I'm asking if you're appalled by the low recidivism rates their
apparently-appalling justice system produces.

~~~
fixxer
Sure we are.

"Socialism works so well there! We should do it here."

"They have such low recidivism there! We should use their sentencing as a
standard!"

I think violent offenses are more than something that requires reform for the
perpetrator. It requires justice for the victim. Rape and murder? Fuck you,
you're going away FOREVER.

~~~
ceejayoz
What, exactly is the socialist/capitalist dividing line when it comes to
sentencing length? At what point does a short murder sentence become a sign of
socialism?

------
tcj_phx
Some women have a severe adverse reaction to "hormonal" birth control. These
products actually use hormone analogues that disrupt the steroid pathways.

This diagram shows how cholesterol is turned into the steroids:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steroid#/media/File:Steroidoge...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steroid#/media/File:Steroidogenesis.svg)

As best I can figure, my friend had her first psychotic break after 9 months
of chemical castration with time released medroxyprogesterone acetate (Depo
Provera). This drug is a very good mimic of Progesterone USP (what the body
makes for itself), but the body cannot transform it into the steroids
downstream from Progesterone USP.

Most of the other endocrine disruptors used as birth control aren't nearly as
bad as Provera, but all have potential for adverse reactions.

edit: wording

~~~
masonic

      chemical castration
    

Equating _temporary and removable_ birth control with "castration" is
ludicrous.

~~~
tcj_phx
> Equating temporary and removable birth control with "castration" is
> ludicrous.

The 'chemical castration' comment was about Depo Provera specifically. The
injection is NOT removable: you're basically stuck with the effects for 3+
months, unless you know to use the antidote (which is not covered in doctors'
curriculum for using this class of drugs on their patients).

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chemical_castration#United_Sta...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chemical_castration#United_States)

------
qguv
This is not "birth control"—it's "coerced sterilization."

~~~
LeifCarrotson
It's my understanding that the hormone-releasing implants for the women are
birth control - remove it and you can get pregnant again in a month or two. I
see this is an arm implant, not an IUD as a couple of friends have used (and
subsequently removed and had a beautiful healthy daughter), so I may be
incorrect.

But yes, the vasectomy offered to the men is far more permanent than "birth
control".

~~~
mc32
India pioneered a "reversible vasectomy" [1]. Basically they gum up the ducts
from the testes. It does not have to be irreversible.

The thing to watch is whether knowing they have become, at least temporarily,
infertile, will lead them to unsafe sex practices resulting in more venereal
disease.

[1][http://newatlas.com/risug-male-
contraception/18824/](http://newatlas.com/risug-male-contraception/18824/)

~~~
k_sh
There's a YC company, Contraline[1][2], doing a similar thing.

[1]: [http://contraline.com/](http://contraline.com/)

[2]: [http://contraline.com/news/2016/05/13/contraline-is-
accepted...](http://contraline.com/news/2016/05/13/contraline-is-accepted-
into-y-combinator-fellowship/)

------
brainopener
"A Tennessee judge has rescinded his controversial program that sought to
encourage drug-dependent female and male inmates to cut their jail time by
voluntarily agreeing to undergo birth control procedures.

White County General Sessions Court Judge Sam Benningfield of Sparta filed the
order on Wednesday, a day before two state lawmakers asked Tennessee Attorney
General Herbert Slatery to render a legal opinion on the controversial
program's constitutionality."

[http://www.timesfreepress.com/news/breakingnews/story/2017/j...](http://www.timesfreepress.com/news/breakingnews/story/2017/jul/27/tn-
lawmakers-seek-state-attorney-general-opinion-judges-inmate-sterilization--
freedom-program/440575/)

------
flimflamman
This practice has been stopped. (Edit)

Source: [http://wkrn.com/2017/07/27/white-county-judge-stops-
trading-...](http://wkrn.com/2017/07/27/white-county-judge-stops-trading-jail-
time-for-vasectomies/)

~~~
loeg
The article is from July 21, which wasn't too long ago.

~~~
loeg
(Can't edit my comment anymore, unfortunately. To clarify the context, before
it was edited, the grandparent comment I replied to said something like: "This
article is very old." The author has since removed that sentence.)

------
psarcasm
it's not eugenics I swear

~~~
mc32
What is the real end difference between this and something like genomic
editing?

I'm not arguing for one or none of the above. Simply curious.

~~~
khedoros1
Depends on the nature of the genomic editing and the circumstances under which
it occurs, doesn't it?

For example: "We'll give you time off your sentence if you let us edit out
genes in your gametes linked to aggressive and addictive traits." That trade
is similarly coercive, and doesn't provide a clear benefit to the future
children.

~~~
DaiPlusPlus
> doesn't provide a clear benefit to the future children.

> edit out genes in your gametes linked to aggressive and addictive traits

sounds like a pretty clear benefit to me! I'd do that even if I was trying to
conceive naturally. Why would I want my children to have a genetic
predisposition towards undesirable behaviour?

~~~
SamReidHughes
Maybe aggression is a desirable trait.

~~~
DaiPlusPlus
To be fair, there are different types of aggression - some desirable (i.e. a
strategic thinker who isn't afraid of /blitzkrieg/ as a valid strategy in
business ventures) and others undesirable (e.g. prone to outbursts physical
anger) which can only be described as a liability in polite, organised
society.

------
Animats
There's been sterilization of "welfare moms" in the recent past in the US.[1]

[1] [http://www.thedailybeast.com/sterilized-for-being-
poor](http://www.thedailybeast.com/sterilized-for-being-poor)

~~~
masonic
1981 isn't "recent", and it was illegal even then, as your link states
clearly.

------
Mz
I am failing to find it, but this same basic story was posted in recent weeks.
Perhaps just as well. A tldr of my comments there: Eh, some inmates might feel
"You are going to reduce my sentence AND give me free birth control? What's
the catch?"

As this article says, he may be going about it the wrong way, but he probably
is trying to do something good. The Deep South (where I was born and raised)
seems to generally be even worse than the rest of America about certain
things. I can see him being willing to take the blame so some young woman can
stop being a baby factory and blame it on him, thereby getting relatives and
church members off her back.

~~~
Buge
Is it common for inmates to have relatives and church members on their back
about not having children?

It seems there is a more serious situation that the relatives and church
members would be on their back about.

~~~
Mz
I have read that sexual activity among teens in Europe and the US is about the
same, but teen pregnancy rates are higher in the US due to reluctance to use
birth or less ability to access birth control. Girls who take the pill in the
US are "sluts" because they planned it. Girls who are swept away with emotion
are in the clear morally because it is "love." The US also has a lot of
hangups about abortion and barriers to accessing it.

There are social settings where "good girls":

A) Do not use birth control, especially if they are unmarried.

B) Serve the sexual needs of their man.

C) Do not get abortions because it is baby murder.

Etc. Ad nauseum.

It is a recipe for disaster for the girl and there is no socially acceptable
escape from it -- unless some " asshole" male authority figure kindly gives
you an out where you can say "Look, ma, I took the deal to come home to my kid
30 days early. I am trying to be a good parent here. Not my fault the judge is
an asshole."

Good authority figures accept that doing the right thing means taking the
blame for it when people don't like it. It is part of the job.

(Edit: some stats may be out of date because I am an old woman. The general
principle still applies.)

------
pasbesoin
So, where are the Conservatives deploring this government involvement in
health care?

Or, viewed from another angle, _this_ is the future of health care in America.

(For those who are unaware, note that _other_ aspects of health care in U.S.
incarceration are often poor or outright unavailable. As a simple exercise,
just say to yourself "private prison" \-- which many jurisdictions have
increasingly moved to -- and imagine the corresponding pressure for cost
savings (i.e. profit).

But, "spay and neuter" them? [Yes, an intentionally harsh and polemic phrasing
on my part.] Sure, we can pay for that.)

~~~
flimflamman
Conservatives do not like it when the government forces them to pay for other
people's birth control. This is usually one of the top issues in any American
election and is discussed repeatedly year-round in the media.

------
dogruck
If we support "cash for clunkers" why not support "pay people to be
sterilized?" I don't mean "pay poor people and criminals" \-- I mean, open up
the program to any person who volunteers.

~~~
mc32
I don't see an issue if it's available to one and all adults for free with no
strings attached.

~~~
dogruck
What about the hypothetical scenario where the procedure is free, and the
volunteer also receives, say, $2,000?

~~~
mc32
If everyone is offered the $2,000, for the reversible kind, I'm okay with it.
I know for some people 2,000 is something, for some people it's nothing. But
if it's reversible I don't see the harm.

~~~
dogruck
On the whole, I'm with you -- even if the procedure is not reversible.

I do have sympathy for the view that paying people to be sterilized preys upon
the weak. Many people can think of things that they would have done for $2,000
at one point, but not at another point.

------
koolba
This is disgusting.

------
sysdyne
RIP Here lies humanity

~~~
bitJericho
News flash. This has been ongoing for decades, on and off. America is a
shithole.

~~~
ryanmarsh
Honest question, is anywhere not?

~~~
TheSpiceIsLife
Australia and New Zealand?

~~~
jdboyd
Australia was considering forced castrations as recently as 2015. Also, I'm
led to believe that internet service is fairly poor there due to limiting
outgoing bandwidth.

I don't really know anything bad about NZ.

~~~
TheSpiceIsLife
I 100/40 Mbps fibre connection to my house in Launceston, Tasmania. Seems to
work alright. But I'm lucky.

I've often wondered if I had been castrated as a teenager maybe I would have
spent less time in police lockup for stupid behavioural issues.

 _Castration, as well as the elimination of hormonally-driven behavior
associated with a stallion, allows a male horse to be calmer and better-
behaved, making the animal quieter, gentler and potentially more suitable as
an everyday working animal._ [1]

 _Decreased Aggression: One of the most important behavioral advantages of
castration is that as adults, these dogs will tend to be less aggressive both
toward other male dogs and also people. The androgen (male) hormones, of which
testosterone is the most important, are responsible for the development of
many behavioral patterns. When young puppies are sexually mounting their 7 and
8-week old litter mates this is because of androgen surges in their bodies.
The same is true with aggressive behavior._ [2]

 _Forced_ castration is something I don't think anyone should admit to
supporting.

I wonder if there is scope for repeat violent offenders be _offered_ the
procedure in exchange for early release or more lenient sentencing. Can, meet
worms.

I like to imagine that scenario ends up being a footgun when, in the future,
we've bred violence out of the human race, the aliens invade and we're too
passive to do anything about it.

1\.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gelding](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gelding)

2\. [https://www.petcoach.co/article/benefits-of-neutering-
castra...](https://www.petcoach.co/article/benefits-of-neutering-castrating-
male-dogs-puppies/)

------
fixxer
I suggest reading about
[http://www.projectprevention.org](http://www.projectprevention.org) for a
less coercive version of the same concept.

