
Mostly Lost: A children's book that teaches programming without a computer - ColinWright
http://www.laurenipsum.org/mostly-lost
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guard-of-terra
Off topic.

But the idea of "summer school" I've picked from the first page is so terrible
that it hurt me badly just by reading it.

"Extra classes are how to get ahead, mom said." - Why should a child care
about "getting ahead"? Now adults don't get enough of this so we have to
torture children too?

Will probably be sad for the rest of the day.

~~~
jgrahamc
This thinking is very common amongst a certain class of parents. Trying
talking to parents of children in private school. They are often hyper-
competitive; constantly comparing their children against their classmates and
forcing them from an early age (primary level) into extra classes to 'get
ahead'.

This was once summarized for me by someone in Palo Alto as "it's either
Harvard or the gutter".

~~~
DanBC
People in the UK will move house to get into the catchment area of a good
(free) school. Not just secondary school (ages 11 to 16) but for primary
schools too (ages 5 to 10). That's an investment of hundreds of thousands of
pounds for something which (at primary school ages) doesn't appear to have
much of an evidence base.

I haven't heard anyone saying "It's Harvard or the gutter", but they're
similar.

~~~
waqf
I'm intrigued that you didn't anglicise to "... Oxbridge or the gutter". Is
Harvard now both as well known as and more prestigious than Oxbridge in the
UK?

~~~
DanBC
I'm just lazy, that's why I didn't anglicise. I would think that Harvard is as
well known as Oxbridge. I'm not sure about the other Ivy League colleges.

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DanBC
A nice idea, but I'm not convinced. I'd be interested to see an excerpt that
taught an actual programming concept. See also "The Number Demon" (Or devil -
([http://www.amazon.co.uk/Number-Devil-Mathematical-
Adventure/...](http://www.amazon.co.uk/Number-Devil-Mathematical-
Adventure/dp/0805057706\))) which could have been brilliant but has a few
problems.

Still, good luck! Anything that helps teach programming thinking is probably a
good thing.

~~~
mdanger
Out of curiosity, what were the problems with The Number Devil? I remember
reading it when I was younger and felt I had a good grasp on how things were
presented.

~~~
DanBC
Just my personal opinion: I didn't like the way that names of people and
theories were changed to other stuff; and it can feel a bit repetitive with
the dialogue. I'm not saying the book is awful, and I know other people will
think it's good.

~~~
aristus
I loved that book but you're right. The punny names for things were too cute
and did not translate well from the German, despite heroic effort. I gather
that they are a bit strained even in the original, eg calling a square root a
"radish".

To give the puns in Lauren Ipsum a fighting chance, I hewed closer to Latin
roots and avoided homonyms and homophones. We'll see how it goes.

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aristus
Thank you for the response! Some general comments: this book does not try to
explain all of computer science. There's already a guy working on _that_ book,
and it's taken him 50 years so far. Laurie does learn some programming in the
book. Mostly she learns the little things that programmers take for granted,
like how to put yourself in the state of mind for debugging.

~~~
mapleoin
Just thinking about what you wrote; I think that it would be really nice if
someone wrote a book for adult programmers about the opposite thing: how to
get yourself out of the state of mind for debugging when you go home.

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chrischen
This seems like it would teach kids meaningless (to them) terms and concepts
they aren't ready to understand yet.

It'd be more interesting if it brought programming challenges into the context
of the daily life a child but it seems to just define things as is. For
example, the travelling salesman section just defined what a traveling
salesman problem is.

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mml
After a read-through, the writing seems a bit self-consciously clever, the
humor seemingly intended to pat the "savvy" adult reader on the back. This
chapter anyway doesn't strike me as something particularly useful for
educational purposes.

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rimantas
I actually did learn to program without a computer. At that (late 80ties) time
my country was still a part of USSR, computers were rare and we had none at
school. The programming class we had was meant to be taught without a
computer, and it included all the necessary concepts, so we learnt about
algorithms, variables, loops, etc. Later, when I finally got to use a computer
all I needed to find out the particular syntax to use, I could program
already. I am not sure though whether my first "real" language did spoil me
beyond repair as some claim (because it was BASIC, MSX BASIC) or if does not
count, because the first language I did program in was not BASIC but rather
some pseudo code.

~~~
ctdonath
Very early on, not long after that first memorable 3-line BASIC program that
printed (!) a sine wave on paper, Dad had me work thru a book on programming -
no computer. Every page had an assembler-style command in the corner, and I
learned much by "running" the program by hand, flipping hither & yon thru
pages whilst scribbling down numbers in "registers" on paper. Don't remember
the book's title or the program's function, but it did make a big impression -
and was a lot of fun.

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gbeeson
Interesting read and an interesting idea. When I was through the first read,
my comparison for what I had just read was that it reminded me of 'The Phantom
Tollbooth.' Thanks for posting and good luck with the project.

~~~
Angostura
Yes part phantom tollbooth and patr lewis carroll. With a Dash of Diamond Age-
esque Primer. I don't know, but I think my 8 year old daughter might rather
like this.

Tempted.

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timonoko
Children Finland do not go to school all-year-round. They used to have world-
record 3 months summer vacation. Also special 1-week skiing holiday in winter.
In addition to regular christmasses and passovers.

~~~
guard-of-terra
I believe that all of the ex-USSR has 3 month summer vacations for schools,
too.

Plus three smaller week-long vacations during the rest of the year.

~~~
nazar
I can confirm that. Here we have 3+ month of summer holiday(may25-sep1) and 3
holiday periods(more than one week) during the year. Also in Singapore they
normally have 3 months summer holiday at university(student in Singapore uni
myself)

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rinrae
“A little Jargon doesn’t look like much. Some people even keep them as pets.
But they form packs, and they are very dangerous.”

It's probably one of those children's book that grown-ups love. As a child,
you might feel a little betrayed once you grow up and learn it's "just about
programming".

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fletcher
In theory the iPad could be the perfect device to build an app for learning
children to write simple programs, however apparently the Apple policy does
not allow running an interpreter as part of an application, and technically
speaking such an app should allow to visually build simple programs that are
interpreted, so I guess, game over, but it is a huge lost opportunity.

~~~
sehugg
Apple allows plenty of interpreters -- Lua, Frotz, C64 emulator, BASIC
interpreters, etc. They relaxed their policy about a year ago. I doubt they're
going to reject an educational app that teaches programming.

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wccrawford
I have a hard time believing this does what it claims.

~~~
drieddust
Agreed.Book seems quite complicated and filled with jargon.

~~~
ColinWright
I've worked with children, and I've watched them pick up new, nonsense and
specialist words faster than I have, and deduce or divine their meaning and
usage with amazing accuracy.

Plural of anecdote is not data, but your comment is in contrast to my personal
experience.

~~~
bmj
Agreed. My kids (aged 6 and 8) picked up rock climbing jargon from my wife and
I (and our friends) rather quickly, and began using it in the proper context.
Nothing turns heads like a five year old asking "mommy, did you send that
boulder problem?"

~~~
pbhjpbhj
I've done a little climbing but can't parse it ... so what did the mother do
to the boulder problem?

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pbhjpbhj
In what way does a list of jargon teach programming?

Would you "teach cookery without a cooker" by listing ingredients? Seems very
strange.

Also, few of questions on the language:

1) "and there was no one [to] tell her different."

Shouldn't this, typo aside, be "differently"? It's modifying how she was told.
I see this usage a lot but it seems wrong to me.

2) "“Gether!” it said."

The others are repetitions of the sounds she makes but not this. Is this some
sort of joke that I don't get? 'Gever' or 'get her' doesn't parrot "get
there".

3) Along the same lines, some of the words spoken by Argot the dog-mouse are
given as if they are onomatapaiea, but not all. He doesn't hamilton the word
'Hamilton' he only says it. This seems quite inconsistent and frankly as if
the author is trying just a bit too hard to be like Edward Lear.

4) Does all the jargon also have a programming meaning, I know several of the
terms as computing terms but also several more as non-computing terms.

Can you tell I don't like it. I love nonsense poetry and Alice in Wonderland
(the original I think has too much prattling on for kids generally however),
am a fan of books like Sophie's World, but this doesn't do anything for me.
I'm not the target audience though for sure.

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kaichanvong
For children? I'm pretty sure any child I give this to will draw on it and not
understand a word of it.

~~~
norswap
Strange creatures saying nonsensical strange words ? They will love it. I know
I would have as a child.

~~~
waqf
... nonsensical words which just happen to be computer jargon? It's been done:
<http://www.textfiles.com/humor/COMPUTER/aliceunix.txt>

~~~
kaichanvong
I stand corrected!

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masterponomo
My dad learned IBM assembler and COBOL from the IRS in 1968. When I, at age 10
in 1970, asked him what he did at his job, he handed me an IBM Principles of
Operation (POOP) manual, an IBM green card, and a stack of punched cards with
a program encoded thereupon. "Mostly Lost" is OK for today's yute, but I'm
sure glad the magical mystery fairy tale school of learning was not in
operation when I cut my programming teeth.

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jimmyhwang
Is anyone else getting a "Quota Limit" when they click the screen?

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intellection
Children program everyday. Give em a say. Defining yourself is programmatic
self-worth: domain naming, contextual reframing, good thoughts.

I love Mostly Lost in name and a potential moral articulation, insofar leading
us towards a gray truth - computers obey words, humans do not and words govern
everyday. Words force us out onto a (new) page.

Is it psychologically healthy and sane, giving inner voice programmatic say
over your domain and system, at any age?

