
10-Year-Old Scholar Takes California College By Storm - lurkage
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/05/14/10-year-old-scholar-takes_n_101716.html
======
aantix
"The Myth of Prodigy and Why It Matters" was a presentation done by Malcolm
and is a must read.
[http://www.psychologicalscience.org/observer/getArticle.cfm?...](http://www.psychologicalscience.org/observer/getArticle.cfm?id=2026)

Gladwell makes the distinction between gifted learners vs. gifted do'ers.

<quote> We think of precociousness as an early form of adult achievement, and,
according to Gladwell, that concept is much of the problem. “What a gifted
child is, in many ways, is a gifted learner. And what a gifted adult is, is a
gifted doer. And those are quite separate domains of achievement.” </quote>

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DaniFong
For a long time I’ve been meaning to write about the subject, and what was to
be a simple comment morphed into this essay.

On YC:

<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=190148>

Or directly:

[http://daniellefong.com/2008/05/15/advice-to-the-bright-
and-...](http://daniellefong.com/2008/05/15/advice-to-the-bright-and-young/)

------
gruseom
I agree with the commenters who point to the parents. This kind of prodigy is
usually the product of an ambitious parent trying to vicariously superachieve.
I think that explains why so few go on to great (or even comparable)
achievement in later life. It's because they weren't living out their own
identity but something that was assigned to them. Sooner or later this is
bound to be rejected or otherwise collapse.

The vast majority of children want simply to be like other children and, most
of all, to have their parents' love. I believe it is the latter force that
drives the typical child prodigy. That is, what drives the achievement is not
anything like intellectual passion (which mostly comes later) but a desire for
the parent's approval and love. It's sad when that is conditional on mastering
calculus at age 8 or what have you.

~~~
silencio
I don't know. The thing is, I got into the highly gifted magnet program at
lausd (the group for kids with IQs>=145) thanks to my parents. But my parents
were completely oblivious as to what all of that nonsense from the school
principal was and just signed all the papers without really reading anything.
They actually thought I caused some trouble at school when they got a call
from my teacher who wanted to talk about me..except it was cause I was in the
99th percentile in everything and finished classwork in 5 minutes what would
take everyone else an hour (and played games on the Macs we had in class :D).

So I mean, this stuff happens with or without parents. I think it's cause I
really enjoyed all these things..my parents sat me down with the Sunday comics
to get me to read when I was a baby not because they wanted me to be some
genius, but because apparently it looked like I had an interest in the
colorful stuff on the paper. (On a sidenote, some parents think they can make
their kids into "genius"es and their kids overwork themselves to get into
these programs to get their approval and man it ends up being a waste of
time!)

I believe Moshe is a very cute kid who has brains. I think that his parents
realized that early on and got him to do all these things. My ultimate problem
with this situation is that he's too young and inexperienced in every other
way..he's only known that life he has now and nothing else, and there's
probably no way in hell his parents will backtrack and just leave him alone
(probably blame it on him eventually reaching puberty? who knows). I don't
know if he'll end up regretting it, or if he'll end up thanking his parents
for what they've done. But I think it's a damn shame regardless.

And you do have a really valid point that not a lot of people are realizing. I
can count a LOT of people my age and older that I know were just as gifted as
this kid..but what did they end up doing? Um, nothing that someone will
remember 10 years later, usually. That doesn't mean they're not
gifted..they're pretty intelligent. But it's not something that really stands
out..it's usually what they want to do and they just do it.

~~~
zach
Hey, me too. I was at Carpenter Avenue in the valley. Didn't go all the way to
Walter Reed but I did enjoy the HG classes. It was a real "wealth effect" of
intelligence. LAUSD seems to be very proactive.

~~~
silencio
I think they are in the beginning, but at the end (basically, during high
school) all that happens is that you get stuffed with AP and honors classes
galore. Everything that was good in elementary and junior high just disappears
:(

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silencio
Oh jeez, I know this kid. I have the same piano teacher as he does, and I felt
so sorry for him. His lessons were often after mine.

Personally, I think his parents (his dad in particular) ARE pushing him way
too much.

~~~
viergroupie
Anything specific?

~~~
silencio
While I think he's a really nice and smart kid (basically, like all of my
friends from all those stupid programs), I don't think he's had much
experience outside practicing/studying/fine tuning all these things he does at
school and at his extracurricular activities.

And really, as much as that article says his parents didn't want to push him,
I get the impression that they do, and maybe to extremes...at the least, they
imply so.

I want him to be a kid! I've had MANY friends go this route at various ages
(but all still earlier than usual), and some of them regret slaving away at
classwork only to end up like everyone else except a couple years
faster..which ends up meaning almost nothing most of the time. It really
depends on the person..but almost all of them follow the same pattern. Study,
study, study, do lots of extracurriculars..get into college, go to grad school
a bit early, and end up in the same place as half their intellectual peers. Do
employers care? Not really. Do schools care? Maybe for the teeny bit of
publicity, but not really. In fact, if you do skip that much that early you
probably end up running into issues with school administration.

Honestly, is there something bad about taking ones time? I used to take
classes at the CC when I was 11-12ish, and I felt insanely out of place in
most of them because everyone was several years older than me and while it was
easy to get acquainted with others (it can be an interesting introduction),
it's just not the same. My parents liked the idea but they would babysit me
the whole way through (well, not the classwork) because they weren't
comfortable with me beling alone on campus.

Essentially, the behavior of any preteen just won't be the same as anybody
over 18.

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Hexstream
I think more cases similar to this (ok, maybe not _this_ young, but still)
will, or should, happen more in the future. I'm sure there's many
opportunities where a kid is actually interested in studies but can't or
doesn't go on the "fast track" for various reasons.

One reason, I think, is that kids are expected to play non-productive games
all the time. Another is that there's this warped, prevalent perspective that
work and play are opposites.

~~~
silencio
I don't know about that. There are plenty of cases similar to this, and yes,
even younger.

I got pushed into a gifted program (the highly gifted magnet schools in LAUSD)
by my parents. It was boring, and I wish they didn't - the people I met were
fantastic but the program itself was the biggest waste of time. Another kid in
my class made the papers like this one cause he finished his HS diploma and
went on to college early, and his mom fought EVERYONE along the way to make it
happen.

Of course, I dropped out of HS early and went to a community college too
(well, I took a whole bunch of classes there starting from 6th grade anyway),
and I enjoyed the experience. A lot of my friends went from middle school to
college. There are a fair number of programs like that around like at Cal
State LA..a few more places..Simon's Rock is another one I can think of now.

I don't think it's really the studying, but the attitude. The only time I
liked the gifted program was where we almost had individualized studies (one
kid might be doing basic math, another could be doing algebra) but were
grouped together into one class (the social factor) and we were free to do
whatever we want. I liked community college because I picked what I wanted to
do, generally wasn't stuffed with useless busywork (I dropped most of those
classes and took the same one with different profs), et cetera. Meanwhile, the
equivalent AP classes at the HS were boring, nothing BUT busywork, and we HAD
to stick with the schedule studying to the tests we had to take and there was
no room for anything more because some people couldn't keep up. The forced-
ness was what I hated.

And yeah, that whole work and play are opposites thing is annoying too. I
learn a lot from hands-on labs and things, and we didn't get to do a lot of
those ever. Maybe it was because it was a cash-strapped public school?

Finally, I think all of this needs to be customized to the student, because
that's what makes it so good. The gifted program I was in was great for some,
the early college stuff was great for others, and neither really worked for
me.

~~~
brentr
People who go on to discover great things don't learn from the professors.
Let's take math as an example. One creates advances in mathematics by sitting
with the literature, a pencil, and a pad. Every great idea comes only after
thousands of failed starts.

~~~
silencio
That is also true. But sometimes you need a mentor of sorts to help you when
you need it, and some professors can do that well.

~~~
brentr
At this juncture, a professor stops being a professor and becomes a colleague.

EDIT: What I am trying to say is that a professor/student relationship is one
of inequality. When the relationship moves beyond only one side influencing
the course of discussion/discovery, then a relationship of equals is
established, albeit a relation of equals where one side is more equal than the
other (and that relationship may swap over the course of time).

~~~
pchristensen
I like that phrasing. And most bright kids never get a "colleague" like that.
I just finished reading Lockhart's Lament, and it made me sad that even though
I was one of the best students in my IB program in high school, then got a BS
in CS, I had to learn from the internet 10 years later that math is a journey
of creative discussion.

~~~
brentr
The first time through a Bachelor's program I made the same mistake. I wanted
so much to get out of school and head into the business world. The result was
a finance degree and an intense urge to go back to school to pursue math and
computer science. Now I am going back to pursue those two at Bowling Green,
and I will not make the same mistake again.

------
aswanson
If he doesn't watch it he'll end up like Michael Jackson, spending his adult
life trying to recreate his lost childhood.

------
keating
Over. Scheduled.

On the flip side I think we _should_ front-load education because kids hardly
learn anything from jr. high onward, thanks to the hormone fairy. There are a
few exceptions, of course.

~~~
silencio
I think all high schools could do with starting classes a couple hours later,
and to lessen the busywork.

It certainly works for me. I schedule all my college classes after 10am if
possible, otherwise I just fall asleep in class no matter how early I go to
sleep the night before.

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xlnt
Maybe pg should have been less negative about the abilities of 10 year olds in
his essay.

Of course it's hard to know very much by age 10 if your parents lie to you
frequently. But that isn't the child's fault.

~~~
timr
It doesn't take much insight to see that this kid's life is hyper-scheduled
and regulated by his parents. His Dad is "fretting" that his _grade_ in piano
will be bad, because he _broke his arm_ in martial arts? Time to get some
perspective, Pop....

Point being, this kid doesn't have the experience to know what he's missing by
not being a little boy. Who says that his parents are telling him the truth?

~~~
lvecsey
Dude can grep wikipedia and has parents that can talk about topics in a deep
way, or provide resources to him on topics that interest him. Most parents
would do the opposite and restrict internet access for starters, let alone
have the ability to assist in his intellectual interests. As far as kid
activities his age, I'm sure he would be bored stiff around others. That seems
like a blessing to avoid behavior that would no doubt only lead to worse
choices later in life.

~~~
silencio
I don't think so. Resources, yes. But not necessarily parent-talk. And I think
if he was this smart (which I do), that he'd be able to do this on his
own..not this early, but eventually, somehow.

Also, some parents do the opposite, some don't. Some misunderstand the purpose
of the internet, which I think is the real problem. My parents attempted to
and eventually stopped trying to filter what I did on the computer after I
circumvented everything they tried and turned the tables on them (I was a
complete brat :D), but they also spent a fortune of their then-pitiful
earnings on books and toys and hardware I wanted. They felt that was more
important than indulging their own desires (typical asian parents).

Now I'm paying that back in various ways, and I thank them for all of that. I
don't think I would have been the big geek I am now if it wasn't for them
putting up with me tearing apart half the electronics they owned.

I wonder what he'll turn out to be like 10 years later.

------
zach
Downey in the hizzle! I'll hire him as an intern at my startup... if he keeps
his grades up.

~~~
zach
Ouch. Excuse me. I'm just glad to have news stories about Downey that don't
involve the house the Carpenters used to live in.

~~~
keating
The downmodding is for conflating grades with "deservedness" re: interning at
your startup.

First, if someone does the work, they should get the pay/equity, regardless of
age.

I say forget grades and jumping through other people's hoops. If he wants to
do it, he will do it for its own sake.

Second, I'd let the poor kid hang out at my startup just to get away from his
parents and structure. He can play with action figures or something. Of course
maybe he's perfectly happy where he is, but if not, it would be nice to have
someplace to go where the adults just leave you alone. A lot of us can relate
to his situation.

~~~
zach
I'm just saying there's not much going on in Downey. There really isn't.
Downey makes Burbank look like Mountain View.

I am not in a position to have anyone intern (I run my startup out of my house
-- Downey doesn't let you have a business license for an apartment, by the
way!) That, and I flunked out of college in my first semester.

My offer is entirely tongue-in-cheek and it came from the same place you're
coming from. But I understand you don't know me, so it's cool. Nice to meet
you!

