
Catalan referendum: preliminary results show 90% in favour of independence - tomp
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/oct/01/dozens-injured-as-riot-police-storm-catalan-ref-polling-stations
======
lacaza
I feel a little bit disappointed with hacker news having this superficial and
anti-analytical article in the front page.

As a Spaniard id like to address some points brought up here in the comments.
I've read people comparing this with Crimea, thoughts on self determination,
thoughts on the repression by the government, etc.

The first thing is to question the referendum itself: there was no census,
there are people from Madrid voting, people voting twice, people inserting 4
votes at once, etc. The percentage of Catalan people voting this probably
doesn't even get to 15%. And the people how came to vote were the only the
ones who believed this referendum was democratic (99.9% of people who want the
independence).

Then there's the legitimacy of this referendum. In order to make this
referendum, the catalan parliament approved new laws without majority and
breaking the Catalan laws in a dictatorial disgraceful manner. This referendum
is illegal and unconstitutional. There are millions of public money and public
space used in order to carry on with "crime of sedition", using the political
force against the law in order to rebel against the institutions. If anybody
recalls past dictatorships, many of them had these kind of referendums.

After knowing how this referendum was done and why it was illegal and anti
democratic, I'd like to address the people who can't conceive liberty with
rules. Referendums on self determination are unconstitutional by law in Spain,
I can agree on a change on the constitution. But to change the constitution in
order to allow these referendums you need a national referendum, because your
changing the constitution of all the country, not just Catalonia .

I will finally argue on self determination and try to clear some superficial
comments I've read.

The first and impulsive thought all of us have is to think that everybody
should decide about everything. But in reality, that extreme liberty can take
on someone else's liberty.

If you allow catalonia to self determine their independence and then they do
get independent, the next will be país vasco, then Galicia, then Madrid, and
so on. The problem with this is not that the country would disappear (I'm not
very patriotic) the problem is you're creating extreme inequality by regions.
If Madrid gets independent they become rich because they give a great
percentage of their gdp to Spain in taxes. But andalucia or Extremadura would
become extremely poor. If you have a little bit of socialistic view, you can
understand this is wrong. It's against redistribution, against equality,
against globalization, and pro-isolation, xenophobia and discrimination.

Also, Catalonia can never be compared with Scotland, their history is null in
contrast. Their identity is as special as many other regions of spain.

[0]Here are some tweets on how the referendum was done:

Guy votes 4 times
[https://twitter.com/key_opinions/status/914529367543382016](https://twitter.com/key_opinions/status/914529367543382016)

People voting
[https://twitter.com/juanmalamet/status/914448261964029957](https://twitter.com/juanmalamet/status/914448261964029957)

Fake census on a small town
[https://twitter.com/yuyudecai/status/914577981812674566](https://twitter.com/yuyudecai/status/914577981812674566)

~~~
farresito
The only two autonomous communities I could see leaving are Catalonia and
Basque Country. Madrid, despite being rich, has many more privileges than
Catalonia.

What makes you think less than 15% of people voted? Did you by any chance get
these numbers from the extremely objective and impartial newspapers abc, el
mundo, or la razon?

I don't feel like arguing at 3am, so I will leave it at that, but reading
things like our history is null makes me pretty sad.

~~~
lacaza
More privileges? Madrid has a higher gdp per capita but a lower gpd (fewer
people), despite of having a lower gdp they contribute with twice the money:
[http://m.eldiario.es/politica/Madrid-deficit-fiscal-
millones...](http://m.eldiario.es/politica/Madrid-deficit-fiscal-millones-
Cataluna_0_284521745.html) (Leftist source)

What makes me think about the real percentage of people that voted is not any
newspaper but things like this:
[https://twitter.com/key_opinions/status/914529367543382016](https://twitter.com/key_opinions/status/914529367543382016)

[https://twitter.com/juanmalamet/status/914448261964029957](https://twitter.com/juanmalamet/status/914448261964029957)

[https://twitter.com/yuyudecai/status/914577981812674566](https://twitter.com/yuyudecai/status/914577981812674566)

And finally, I'm very sorry if I offended you, I'm just saying that the
difference between someone from Madrid and someone from Barcelona es less than
someone from Madrid and Cadiz or many other cities. There is no special
identity nor history compared to other regions. Your claiming the crown of
Aragon, which was pretty much half of Spain... I don't think you could claim
independence just because you belonged to something else (as every region
before the formation of Spain) in the past... The only real argument is to
say: a lot of people want it. I stated my points on that in my comment.

~~~
farresito
(I did not downvote you, for the record) Don't feel bad for offending me. I
have been getting easily triggered quite a bit lately due to the lack of
objectiveness of a lot of the Spanish media (you could say the same about
Catalan media). I shouldn't really talk in these threads to be honest.

It's true that Madrid is richer, but they also have, for example, the
privilege of being the capital of Spain, which naturally helps with their
economy.

Regarding the multiple votes, I could also add that other people tried[1]
voting twice and weren't allowed. That is not to say that it wasn't possible
at certain places, but I think that stating that less than 15% of the real
population voted when the released data said that more than two million IDs
were registered electronically is a bit ingenuous. Furthermore, TVE, the
Spanish national TV channels, manipulated data and were really biased, as
stated by multiple journalists working there[2].

[1]
[https://twitter.com/orioldebalanzo/status/914526879582998528](https://twitter.com/orioldebalanzo/status/914526879582998528).

[2]
[https://twitter.com/vanesabenedicto/status/91448136228718592...](https://twitter.com/vanesabenedicto/status/914481362287185925)

~~~
lacaza
I agree with you on the media being biased (by both sides). But I don't think
this should be about the numbers. I only stated that percentage to make clear
the point that there was no census and multiple ways to hack the polls...

In any case, my arguments apply wether that percentage is 15 or 50. Also, I
believe we shouldn't differentiate between regions that could have the
privilege of voting and regions who wouldn't have it (specially when the
reasons aren't solid) , it just intensifies the feeling of false superiority
and xenophobia between different populations.

I could agree on the possibility of self determination for any region (or
city), but I'd like people to think a little bit more about what that could
mean in the long term and if that's something good for the world overall.

Sorry again if I was too arrogant, I fully respect your love for your hometown
and your people.

~~~
farresito
I think a lot of non-Catalans have the perception (perhaps portrayed by the
media) that we dislike Spain or the people, but frankly, the big issue is that
we are fed up with the government (and certain branches of the govt.),
probably like a large amount of Spaniards, with the difference being that we
are able to express it through the pro-independence movement, which has always
existed, though admittedly it had never been close to as strong as it is
nowadays, and which allows us to put much more pressure into the govt. for
changes. There is no hate at all; we just want the best for our land, like
everyone. It's good that parties like Podemos have been growing, even if one
doesn't feel identified with their ideals, because it shows that people are
fed up with the situation.

Thank you for the kind words. Likewise to you <3.

------
argonaut
I thought this analysis article was really thought-provoking and now I have
uncertain and mixed feelings about the referendum:
[https://www.nytimes.com/2017/09/29/world/europe/independence...](https://www.nytimes.com/2017/09/29/world/europe/independence-
movements-catalans-kurds.html).

Basically, when it comes to things like this there's a conflict between two
international ideals: _integrity of national borders_ and _human rights_. And
there are some thought provoking ideas in the article. If you think about it,
if _all_ of Spain voted in this referendum (since this would affect the
resources and borders of the entire nation), what would the result be? There
are obviously major and critical differences, but if you look at another
issue, Crimea, most people there _would_ actually rather be with Russia. But
obviously the rest of Ukraine didn't agree with that. And Crimea actually
tried to hold referendums in the past that were blocked by the national
government. The "referendum" that Crimea ended up holding (to legitimize the
annexation) was declared illegal by the UN, but that's exactly what Spain's
constitutional court did in the Catalan referendum.

Very complex issue and not as cut and dry as I had thought it to be.

~~~
coenhyde
I don't think it's appropriate to ask the citizens of the rest of the country
if they support the secession. To create a simple analogy lets say you have a
group of five people. One is a captive and four are the captors. Is it
appropriate to have a referendum with all five people to vote on if the
captive is allow to go free? No the four captors are always going to vote no.
The captive has to escape without the support of the captors.

~~~
trothamel
I'm sure if you went to any prison and polled the inmates, you'd find quite a
bit of support for the inmate's freedom.

Without taking a position on Catalonia, I think one has to analyze the reasons
they want to hold the referendum and decide if you find them compelling. When
the USA seceded from the UK, the Declaration of Independence provided a
reasonable list of reasons. By contrast, the main reason the CSA seceded from
the USA - slavery - prevented their cause from being legitimate.

~~~
toyg
But you are not polling inmates, you are effectively polling wardens. How many
wardens will poll to release the inmate their own jobs depend on? None.

Independentism is always a thorny subject, because most justification ends up
being defined _ex post_. It’s like “resistance” movements against lawful but
tyrannical governments: if they succeed they will be freedom fighters, if they
fail they’ll be brigands and terrorists. Usually the threshold for legitimacy
is overwhelming support from the population, something that happens
sporadically (it happened in Slovakia, Slovenia, Croatia, Kossovo, _almost_ in
Scotland, and of course in post-soviet republics all over the old federation).
But once popular support is somehow made manifest, then the Wilson doctrine
must be allowed to set the agenda.

------
sgc
Yeah ... if you are willing to take a boot to the face to vote, you probably
want to change the status quo. But the boots to the face then validate the
results and the rest will be history.

~~~
bjterry
Game theoretically, the fact that the Spanish government was so dead set
against the vote implies that they thought there was a significant probability
that it would be over 50% regardless. It seems like if a government resorts to
violence to stop separatism movements, that violence is prima facie evidence
that the separatist sentiment potentially represents the majority of a region.

I have actually been surprised by Spain's response to this. I have always
assumed that self-determination was a principle that modern Europeans actually
believed in, rather than something that was only a political convenience. I
don't know that much about history, though, so perhaps I could be more cynical
on the topic.

~~~
sgc
I don't know if you have spent much time in Spain, but they have a tendency to
be pretty heavy handed even when they don't need to be. It is a large
contributor to the Basque separatist movement for example. I am still waiting
to get better numbers on how many people voted etc. since the reports are
wildly disparate, but I wouldn't be surprised if the move was more to send a
message to other separatist movements than to deal with today in itself.

Regardless, I think the bigger take away from these events is that they have
made their bed and now must lay in it. Almost any result of this vote could
have been more easily dealt with in almost any other way they could imagine.

------
randiantech
There are reports of people voting from two to 4 different schools. Wondering
what methods authorities used to ensure there was no fraud on these
referendum.

~~~
farresito
I voted. I can't talk about all the schools, but the ones I checked made sure
(electronically) that you didn't vote twice, but of course there's a chance
that some people did indeed vote more than once if for some reason they
manually wrote down the name.

~~~
lacaza
Check this out:

[https://twitter.com/key_opinions/status/914529367543382016](https://twitter.com/key_opinions/status/914529367543382016)

[https://twitter.com/juanmalamet/status/914448261964029957](https://twitter.com/juanmalamet/status/914448261964029957)

[https://twitter.com/yuyudecai/status/914577981812674566](https://twitter.com/yuyudecai/status/914577981812674566)

------
Mikeb85
It's absurd that in a Western 'democracy' you'd have the national police out
to suppress a referendum and attack peaceful voters.

Good job Spain, you just legitimised the referendum and gave Catalonia a ton
of international sympathy.

~~~
Y7ZCQtNo39
The optics (at the moment) seem to be the most important issue here. Whether
or not the vote is legitimate is quite irrelevant in immediate aftermath. This
is a government using physical force against its citizens for, of all things,
voting -- a core democratic principle.

Democracy must be tolerant of peaceful protesting. An "illegal" vote
(depending who's lens we are viewing this from), to me, is a form of peaceful
protest. Candor, mutual respect, and peaceful organizing are some of a few
tools democracies have to solve problems without devolving to unrest and
violence. If we assume we highly value avoiding violence (and we should),
governments need to tolerate the use of these tools, from time to time.

By banning the use of these more moderate options, the national government is
essentially promoting dissenters to even less desirable options so they have
at least some form of expression. I think we should be surprised the national
government chose to use such force when it had far less invasive means for
dealing with the consequences of this vote, e.g., courts.

~~~
bassman9000
It was an illegal act, funded by public money. Had the government not acted,
it would have set a bad precedent: that constitution doesn't hold weight in
real life.

~~~
Y7ZCQtNo39
Maybe a court should be deciding whether or not it is illegal, not the police.
Again, my comment was about using the proper response to a given situation.

I don't think the use of public money for the illegal act necessarily sets a
bad precedent. The constitution didn't say to go out there and spray rubber
bullets at civilians. So how a government can respond to this illegal act is a
subjective choice.

Spain could have chosen to use less authoritarian methods to deal with the
consequences of this ballot without setting any precedents. It could have been
declared unenforceable by a court, which is a more appropriate venue.

~~~
kgwgk
Police was instructed by courts to prevent the (illegal) vote from taking
place.

------
qeternity
As much as I'd like to see Catalonians have a voice in this, given that the
referendum is was ruled illegal it seems unlikely that the "no" vote would
come out in droves. One crime in protest of another?

~~~
peteretep
And indeed, turn out was pretty low

~~~
richardknop
Lot of people were stopped from voting though. Police shut down hundreds of
polling stations and intervened in other stations trying to stop people from
voting. 42% turnout under these drastic conditions when police is beating up
people on streets is not low imho.

------
whiddershins
Since the referendum was illegal according to the Spanish government, and
involved violent clashes with police, it wouldn't be surprising if 90% of the
people who actually showed up and voted anyway were separatists.

------
scythe
Scottish referendum: allowed, failed

Kurdish referendum: suppressed, succeeded

Catalan referendum: suppressed, succeeded

It's a little too early to call it a pattern, but it has the appearance of
one.

~~~
peteretep
You could interpret that as the Scottish referendum having been allowed
because it was thought unlikely to succeed.

------
nsnick
This will end up as a shooting war.

~~~
kcorbitt
...that's extremely unlikely. Independence doesn't have anywhere close to 90%
support in reality, it's just that the pro-Spain faction didn't turn out to
vote.

~~~
Retric
As far as I can tell, US independence had minority support (~40 - 45% of the
white population) they however where willing to fight. With others either
neutral or Loyalists.

------
gtirloni
I understand the freedom argument but it's probably coming at a very high
price for little practical gain. It seems a form of Brexit, based largely on
emotions without a clear path forward.

Catalonia becomes a nation state and then what? Are they now an island in the
EU? Easy trade with all other regions in Spain now has to go through taxes and
trade agreements? How much is debt increasing?

[https://www.cnbc.com/2017/09/21/heres-how-bad-
economically-a...](https://www.cnbc.com/2017/09/21/heres-how-bad-economically-
a-spain-catalonia-split-could-really-be.html)

~~~
throwaway5752
Funny you mention Brexit.

[https://thinkprogress.org/assange-catalonia-
independence-0a8...](https://thinkprogress.org/assange-catalonia-
independence-0a83cd016972/)

[http://www.smh.com.au/world/on-catalan-independence-
julian-a...](http://www.smh.com.au/world/on-catalan-independence-julian-
assange-edward-snowden-emerge-as-surprise-backers-20170925-gyoqxs.html)

Seems to be modest pattern emerging.

~~~
thescribe
If you are ideologically opposed to large and powerful nation states you'd
almost categorically support breaking them into smaller states.

~~~
throwaway5752
Just like he supports breaking up Russia? Did you read the 2nd link and look
at the ranking of influencers on #catalonia?

------
pako_crack
Wow, I didn't expect a sensationalist headline like this would sneak its way
in in Hacker News. Be aware of fake and this kind of headlines before posting
in HN!

------
davidcollantes
A 90% of less than 40% of the voting population is minuscule.

~~~
richardknop
No it's not miniscule. That's 36% of all eligible voters. Donald Trump won
election with 26% of eligible voters. Obama and GWB won with around 30%.

Also given the circumstances where police shuts down hundreds of polling
stations, seizes ballot boxes, imprisons local authorities and starts beating
people on the streets, that's a good turnout.

------
bassman9000
Seeing threads like this makes me want to go back, and ask for forgiveness for
all the occassions in which I strongly voiced an opinion in matters I had
absolutely no background, and for which I was utterly unqualified to talk
about.

Because it's clear that most people here have no clue about how Spanish
constitution works, how it was ratified in 78/79, including Catalonia, what
are the consequences of using _public funding for illegal activities_ ,
including polling, and how states have a say in their whole, and each of their
parts.

Lesson learned. I'm sorry.

