
 What Kind of Mother? - wglb
http://www.tbray.org/ongoing/When/201x/2011/01/09/Chinese-Mothers
======
petercooper
_Reading this piece shook me and made me wonder, because either Ms Chua is
bringing her kids up wrong, or we are._

That's a false dichotomy. There are not two ways to treat children (hard vs
soft).

I think Bray falls into the same trap as many of the indignant respondents on
MetaFilter to Chua's piece (though in a less emotive way). There are no
dichotomies when it comes to raising children or "what's best" for them, but
people seem quick to adopt their own society's and communities' norms to
judging both their own parenting techniques and those of others. Seneca was
right to suggest that one should learn philosophy to grow as a human being
because without such study these polarized opinions are so easy to cling to.

I think Chua does a reasonable job of acknowledging and describing the gulf
between her supposedly traditional "Chinese" opinions and the "Western" gamut
of parenting techniques without casting significant aspersions on "Western"
parenting, at least in the essay given (I haven't read her book). When it
comes to Westerners judging Chua, however, people seem very quick to paint her
techniques as wrong, evil, or "cruel" using a moral framework that simply
doesn't apply to her case - it's about as meaningful as criticizing how
Amazonian tribes live (or, better, judging American politics by European
standards).

As in everything, there's a middle way here. Bray's observations indicate, to
me, that he _sees_ the gooey middle of the parenting gamut but then fails to
acknowledge it.

~~~
burgerbrain
I grew up with Asian parents^, and so I think I can safely say that the
parenting techniques are at the very least cruel. For example, she makes it a
point very early on that she doesn't allow her children to properly socialize
with their peers. Education and socialization are _not_ mutually exclusive and
it is absolutely vital that you don't don't convince your children otherwise.
Then after making it a point to mention this little rule, she _never backs it
up or defend it_. Why doesn't she allow her children to participate in drama
or visit with friends? _We don't know_. One is left to simply presume that
perhaps it's because she's on a power trip, enacting some sort of revenge on
her children for daring to be a burden on her life.

^technically my parents were quite germanic, but their parenting technique was
_to a tee_ what Chua described. _"You got a A- in geography?! You need to
spend more time studying!"_ _"why are you listening to rock and roll music?
you should play cello like your brother!"_. It's making a _big_ mistake to
think that this sort of _bad_ parenting is limited to Asian parents.

~~~
petercooper
_For example, she makes it a point very early on that she doesn't allow her
children to properly socialize with their peers._

To call this "cruel" in any _objective_ sense (if you were being subjective,
OK - that's undebatable opinion) would require a definition of what "proper"
is in regards to socialization. Such a definition relates to the values of
_particular societies and communities_ given that they form the basis under
which socialization occurs.

~~~
zasz
Asian American women tend to commit suicide at a rate twice as high as the
national female average:

<http://cdc.gov/women/lcod/archive>

Another link suggesting Asian Americans tend to have worse mental disorders
than other ethnicities: [http://www.healthyminds.org/More-Info-For/Asian-
AmericanPaci...](http://www.healthyminds.org/More-Info-For/Asian-
AmericanPacific-Islanders.aspx)

Causation is not correlation, of course, and you are right that standards for
socialization may differ across cultures, but these statistic and my
experience with other Asians do lead me to believe that Asian upbringings are
unnecessarily cruel and stunt children's ability to deal with other people and
their own feelings to a degree that causes them to take their own lives.
Raising children to be happy enough to _not_ take their own lives or getting
an eating disorder after being called fat one time too many is a bare minimum.

~~~
true_religion
People determine their own level of satisfaction based on comparisons to other
people.

Asian Americans may feel more depressed because they see themselves missing
out on socialization and general "fun" that their western counterparts
experience.

However, Asians in their home countries (or in ethnically homogeneous American
communities) may not feel more depressed because they only have each other as
comparison.

If no one is going out to parties on Friday night, then it is a lot harder to
say "my parents are being unfair to me", or even _feel_ it without expression.

Now addressing your charge that this culture is "unnecessarily" cruel... if we
find that giving people the opportunity to have fun over work leads to higher
satisfaction and consequently lower suicide rates, we still can't call any
specific balance of work vs. fun "unnecessarily cruel" without justification.

It's a judgement call as to what level of 'fun' is a good thing for children
to pursue at the expense of their intellectual, athletic, or social
development. Is the level of depression, and suicide found in western cultures
acceptable or unacceptable? Should we stop foisting 'work' and competitive
rating (in the form of school in particular) on children who don't want it, in
order to have a lower suicide rate?

I'm not pointing at statistics here on purpose because this is a philosophical
question rather than a quantifiable scientific one.

------
laughinghan
Truly touching: [http://www.quora.com/Parenting/Is-Amy-Chua-right-when-she-
ex...](http://www.quora.com/Parenting/Is-Amy-Chua-right-when-she-explains-Why-
Chinese-Mothers-Are-Superior-in-an-op-ed-in-the-Wall-Street-
Journal#answer_251428)

Though all the Quora responses are worth reading.

~~~
turbofail
The Quora responses reveal an important point regarding Dr. Chua's book: the
book was written in response to the failings of the super-strict parenting
style.

The WSJ excerpt makes no mention of this, which is a bit misleading.

On another note, my mother attempted to raise me in such a manner, but she was
always too busy working to do a complete job of it (she didn't bother with my
older brother as much, as he was way more self-motivated than me). I'm
actually a bit curious as to how Dr. Chua managed to find time to hound her
daughters like this while being a professor.

~~~
sethg
You mean, the WSJ chose to highlight that fraction of the book that
_reinforced a popular stereotype of Asians_. Loverly.

------
bergie
Interestingly, Finnish children spend way less time with school and homework
than children in Asia or Europe in general. And still Finland gets top scores
on education...

<http://www.oph.fi/english/sources_of_information/pisa>

~~~
pavlov
I was born in Finland in 1980. My childhood was seemingly the polar opposite
of this so-called "Chinese mom" model.

I never had a guided hobby or one that would have been forced upon me, except
for one time when I was six years old. (My parents enrolled me in a children's
ballet class. Presumably they thought that it would be good for my body
consciousness, or something. After six months I asked them if I had to do it.
They said "no", so I quit, and that was that.)

Instead I was encouraged to come up with my own activities. I always felt that
my parents had great expectations of me, but at the same time they were
careful to never actively formulate those expectations into action points.
That gave me a sense of responsibility: I knew I was just a child, but at the
same time I had been entrusted the serious responsibility of deciding what I
should do with my life. Should it include modern art or maybe egyptology? The
best way to figure that out was to read books about it. If my parents didn't
have a suitable book, I could always walk a few blocks to the library. My
friends' lives had a similar degree of liberty. I don't remember us ever
minding homework; it was something you could take care of in 15 minutes -- or
the next morning at school, if you were feeling lucky.

Probably the general atmosphere in Finland in the 1980s played a role in
making my childhood such a happy one. In retrospect, those were the "halcyon
days" when the Finnish social democracy was complemented by an upstart
liberalization drive that pulled the country out of the Brezhnevian gloom and
stagnation of the '70s. The fun didn't last long: in 1991, the Soviet Union
collapsed and pulled Finland into a recession, as the Finnish economy had
become too reliant on ridiculously profitable exports to the bankrupt Soviet
empire. The social(ist) ambience never really recovered.

------
astrofinch
>On the other hand, they do seem to be loading up the top ranks of violinists
and pianists.

Yes, but being able to flawlessly play back music that other people composed
is mostly useless. (Only half trolling.)

The people who create the most wealth in today's society don't do it through
rote labor.

~~~
jacquesm
The 10,000 hour rule is agnostic when it comes to spending those hours
voluntarily or forced. In either case you will probably be good or even
excellent at something but when forced you'll hate your skill with a passion
probably just as strong as those that will love their skill that achieved it
voluntarily.

------
Tichy
Laszlo Polgar managed to raise three kids to be chess geniuses:
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laszlo_Polgar>

In "Bounce" Sofia is quoted as saying "We spent long hours on the chessboard,
but it didn't seem like a chore because we loved it".

Seems there is an alternative to the chinese method.

Note that Laszlo's children didn't have a chess prodigy gene. He set out to
prove that geniuses can be made, found a wife willing to do the experiment,
and decided on trying chess beforehand (without sampling the children's
talents).

I also like about the story that all three children lead happy lives with
their chess talent.

------
fanlee
I’m chinese，share one point；

why chinese mother more attention to their children?

The competision in children is not their ability or wisdom, most of time but
their parents'backdrop.

in future,80%'s children,find out the parents circumstances,you can know the
guy's tomorrow

------
sethg
If you have a class of twenty children, and all twenty have mothers who are
pushing them, not just to do well, but to be _number one in the class_ , then
nineteen of them have been set up for failure.

------
Jun8
There are many stories of Asian kids snapping under their first generation
parent's pressure (for a famous infamous case, see Asia Carrera, who had a
German father and a Chinese mom, and started out as a very bright kid in
Lehigh).

I had a close friend at college who lived through this experience, he said in
junior high school year he totally flipped out, got all Cs, generally
nosedived. Luckily he was able to make it back, but I wonder how many of these
hyper-pressured kids never do.

------
teaspoon
_I don’t observe that the populations of senior management or famous
scientists or leading-edge computer programmers or successful politicians or
rock stars are being dominated by people who are results of “Chinese Mother”
parenting practices. On the other hand, they do seem to be loading up the top
ranks of violinists and pianists._

It's not fair to assume that Chinese American professionals or musicians are
products of a "Chinese Mother" upbringing. Chua herself disclaimed that notion
when she defined a Chinese Mother as something other than a mother who is
Chinese.

Also, consider that there are plenty of impediments to an Asian American
becoming a successful politician or entering senior management that have
nothing to do with his parents' philosophies.

------
plinkplonk
from the Quora thread [1]

(Christine Lu says) "UPDATE: I emailed author Amy Chua this evening (1/9).
Expressed my disappointment about the WSJ piece and pointed to this Quora
thread. To my surprise I received a prompt reply from her that said:

Dear Christine: Thank you for taking the time to write me, and I'm so sorry
about your sister. I did not choose the title of the WSJ excerpt, and I don't
believe that there is only one good way of raising children. The actual book
is more nuanced, and much of it is about my decision to retreat from the
"strict Chinese immigrant" model.

Best of luck to you, Amy Chua"

So it looks like someone at WSJ added a link bait title. And it worked.

That said, this "parenting style" does seem to border on cruelty. Yishsan Wong
(Director of Engineering at FaceBook)'s post (on the same Quora thread) on his
experience in being the subject of such a parental style is a must read. This
bit seemed particularly relevant to HN

 _"What I see among other Chinese children who I was raised alongside or who I
see now in workplaces today is that this method of Chinese parenting is great
at producing skilled and compliant knowledge workers, but it utterly fails to
produce children who can achieve greatness, remake industries, or come up with
disruptive innovation.

All the Chinese-American people I know who now perform at the highest levels -
both creatively and technically - either achieved this without being driven to
it by their parents (ask Niniane Wang about her upbringing) or in rebellion
against the paths their parents set out for them (see Tony Hsieh
<http://www.businessinsider.com/t...>).

The others - the skilled and compliant mediocre - make superb employees for
the truly great, and if that is what their parents consider "successful," then
that's exactly what they'll get.What I see among other Chinese children who I
was raised alongside or who I see now in workplaces today is that this method
of Chinese parenting is great at producing skilled and compliant knowledge
workers, but it utterly fails to produce children who can achieve greatness,
remake industries, or come up with disruptive innovation. All the Chinese-
American people I know who now perform at the highest levels - both creatively
and technically - either achieved this without being driven to it by their
parents (ask Niniane Wang about her upbringing) or in rebellion against the
paths their parents set out for them (see Tony Hsieh
<http://www.businessinsider.com/t...>). The others - the skilled and compliant
mediocre - make superb employees for the truly great, and if that is what
their parents consider "successful," then that's exactly what they'll get."_

fwiw (I don't have any children and nor do I intend to have any so this is all
empty theorizing) I believe that the best way for parents to teach a
particular set of virtues or skills (discipline, piano playing, whatever) is
to _embody_ those virtues and skills in _their_ lives and leave it to the kids
as to whether they should be emulated.

[1] [http://www.quora.com/Parenting/Is-Amy-Chua-right-when-she-
ex...](http://www.quora.com/Parenting/Is-Amy-Chua-right-when-she-explains-Why-
Chinese-Mothers-Are-Superior-in-an-op-ed-in-the-Wall-Street-Journal)

------
rb2k_
All of this just reminds me of a picture: <http://i.imgur.com/qhblb.jpg>

(I know, I know... this is not reddit...)

