
Ask HN: How do you rent apartments in SF when self-employed? - akkartik
I just looked at a 1500/mo apartment that requires 250k net worth if you don't have an income.<p>I have savings, but not <i>that</i> kind of savings..
======
kneath
I've never run into any kind of problem like that here in SF. I do find that
landlords say they "need" all of these crazy things but in reality all they
care about is a deposit and first month's rent. The first person to hand that
to them will get the apartment.

I spent a whole month looking for apartments the old fashioned way when I
first moved to SF - filling out applications, sending in credit repots,
dealing with the unreasonable requirements landlords put up. Finally got
tired, when I was looking at a house said "I can give you a check for the
deposit now" -- suddenly all his requirements went away and I had a place.

UPDATE: Forgot to mention, I was self employed up until about a month ago, and
have been during all my landlord negotiations here in SF.

~~~
akkartik
Thanks, looking at all the answers here I think I need to steer clear of
managed companies. That explains all the discrepancies in my experience.

Unfortunately it's hard to find a cheap studio from a private landlord. So
that leaves only finding roommates. Except I live with my girlfriend. After
convincing her it was important to downsize I hate to put her through another
level of inconvenience.

~~~
kneath
I don't know about it being that difficult. It's _stressful_ \-- definitely.
The thing I've noticed about San Francisco is the best apartments aren't
available in advance. They go on the market a week or so before they're ready
to move in. The frustrating part here is that you have to put in your 30-day
notice at your previous apartment before you have a new place -- super
stressful (unless you're willing to pay double-rent for a bit, which is often
times economical given the rent break you get in the new place).

I've had pretty good luck with Craigslist, subscribing to feed(s) of the
various neighborhood/price ranges I'm looking in and _hounding_ that feed. A
lot of places are only up on CL for a few hours before they're taken down or
have a waiting list impossibly long.

On a related note: it may be _much_ easier if you don't look for studios.
While San Francisco is an older city -- most of the older buildings you'd
expect to find lofts/studios in burned/collapsed in previous decades. The
result is most of the housing in the city comes from split up
Victorian/Edwardian homes -- one bedroom apartments.

------
dotBen
I am self employed, have proof of good earnings, have tax return from last
year of more than $350k and an almost-800 point credit score -- and I've still
had problems renting here in San Francisco.

My gf and I applied to a $3700/month place we can easily afford on my earnings
alone and the landlord was really concerned by the fact we were both self-
employed. She wanted to see _all_ of my tax return from last year, all
invoices from this year, etc etc -- which I wouldn't show as it's too far
IMHO.

It's not legal to discriminant here in SF, not even on income type -- but its
difficult one to argue.

The rental market is hot here, even now and good tenants can be found. I also
know two cases of friends working on startups and not having a year's personal
runway on the places they were renting during a startup. With no income,
things got too tight and they had to walk away from a place and break their
lease.

A lot of landlords have had this happen to them over the years in SF, and the
irresponsible behavior of these particular tenants has damaged things for all
of us.

Finally, a lot of my industry friends who have sold companies are landlords
themselves here in SF -- they know the risks and (sadly) won't expose
themselves to the same risks that they won big on. It's a shame. One company I
advise, however, rents their place in return for stock in the company as the
property owner is a VC.

------
stevedekorte
The problem is the SF rent control laws make it extremely difficult to evict
non-payers which causes landlords to up-regulate their choosiness to avoid any
possible problems until risk and reward once again meet.

Sadder still is that SF law makes it next to impossible to evict the
physically challenged. I have a blind friend who has told me this has made it
impossible for him to rent a decent place in the city.

~~~
madair
Perhaps you mean to say that the sad thing is SF isn't protecting the blind
from being discriminated against?

~~~
costan
I think the point was that laws that are meant to protect some categories of
people can end up hurting them more.

Most people's instinctive reaction would be "let's add another anti-
discrimination law". The post gives an example of how that approach can fail.

------
smhinsey
What do you mean by self-employed if you don't have an income? If you are a
contractor (such as myself) you should be fine with whatever tax-related
paperwork you have, such as a 1099. If you're trying to start up, I'd second
the suggestions of looking for a roommate, if you can bear the thought of it.
If you're like me and can't imagine having a roommate, look for a place that's
for rent by owner or another similar situation where you would have the
opportunity to sit down face to face with someone not bound by corporate
policy and try to reach an arrangement.

~~~
akkartik
Sorry, I'm new to this. By self-employed I meant "not unemployed", ie I'm not
looking for work. Just living off savings, trying to do something by myself.
Thanks for the suggestions.

~~~
anamax
You may not be "unemployed" for the purposes of govt unemployment statistics,
but you are unemployed; you're not employed. More relevant to a potential
landlord, you don't have an income that will pay the rent. Ie, your runway is
not indefinite, and presumably you can't show that it is "long enough".

~~~
akkartik
So 250k is what constitutes 'long enough'?

Thanks for pointing out what problems the landlord has. I asked how others
here cope with the problem in similar situations.

------
SwellJoe
My problems are compounded by having a big dog, and planning to spend more
than $1500/mo on a place (I'm looking for a townhouse or a duplex on the
outskirts of SF in the $2.1k range). So, I've been looking for quite some
time, but not finding much that fits my needs (I'm in Mountain View,
currently).

I've talked to my current landlord about how pervasive this problem is in this
area in the past, and it's partially a side effect of how hard it is to evict
someone in California. It costs a fortune and takes several months from the
time you actually stop paying rent for your landlord to kick you out of your
home in CA. So, property owners do everything they can to make sure the cost
of you declaring bankruptcy or other tactics to avoid paying your rent while
still living there are higher for you than for them. It's one of those
unintended consequences of regulations intended to help poor people; it
actually hurts the poor the most, since people with high net worth don't have
any problems jumping through these hoops, but poor folks get stuck living in
the absolute worst locations and paying exorbitant prices because no one else
will deal with them.

If you deal with folks who have decision making powers within the company,
showing historic tax records indicating you can make the payments, or showing
a history of paying similar rents on time and for a long period of time, may
be enough. When I moved out here, I had to show I had been making mortgage
payments on a house in Austin for several years. My tax records weren't very
impressive since I had shut down my prior company two years prior and hadn't
started making much money with Virtualmin yet. Landlord also wanted an email
confirmation from YC that we actually had some kind of funding, and had some
expectation of making money.

A friend of mine was able to get a place, despite having low net worth, no
credit history to speak of, and no historic tax records to speak of, and no
history of paying similar rents, by just showing pay stubs from her current
job which pays enough to cover her rent. But, I would guess that would be
dependent on having a job, and dealing with someone that could make a judgment
call and has the power to accept a lease from someone without all that other
stuff.

------
mdakin
I faced this and after being denied I offered to write a check for the entire
year right then. At that point it was insinuated that I must deal drugs. Fools
are absolutely infuriating. I had luck finding an owner who's an actual human
in the full sense of the word much like the people I normally work with in
business. At that point it's like any other deal. I think the key, as always,
is to keep trying.

~~~
andrewbadera
Had a similar scumbag slumlord who, when I attempted to push the rate at which
our under-renovation once-beautiful brick building on the border of open air
drug markets was being renovated (it wasn't even in compliance with codes, no
certificate of occupancy, when we moved in) by offering an advance on rent. I
was at home rather frequently as I telecommuted to my webmaster/tech lead job
at the city newspaper, but still, similar BS attitudes. Renting sucks.

------
petewarden
Don't know about SF, but here's what I've found elsewhere:

\- Commercial landlords have policies, and you're dealing with people who
don't have the incentive or power to change them. With private landlords, you
can talk to them and make a case you'll be a good tenant, they'll take you on.

\- Use references. Past landlords are great, but investors can be impressive
too. Line up some letters on official stationery.

\- If you've got a blog, or public site, or coverage, you can use those to woo
landlords too.

Landlords want someone who will pay the rent, not trash the place, not bother
them, and stay a long time. Keep those in mind, and figure out how to sell
yourself as a good tenant, and hopefully the formalities shouldn't be an
obstacle.

~~~
akkartik
Thanks for those tips.

The one major structural obstacle is that cheap studios rarely come from
private landlords, so we have to look one step up at 1-bedrooms.

------
cyman
The trick is using university/college off-campus housing listing pages. You'll
find great deals. Here's the one from SFSU: <http://sfstate.och101.com/>
"Spacious Studio in Nagley Mansion" $850.00 Also check UofSF, UCSF.

I wouldn't be discouraged by that offer. Like in business, some landlords
prefer to wait for that A+ tenant and take a premium, whereas other deals in
bulk or have cashflow problems so they need to fill the place sooner. There
are HUGE price differences. In Toronto, my friends once rented a whole house
in an upper class area (the Annex) for the price of a 1-bedroom apartment.

------
dotBen
Another idea might be to rent in Oakland/East Bay - the rental market is much
different there and you will get more for your money. Landlords are, frankly,
less snobbish then in SF from what I've seen second-hand via friends who've
rented there.

I know a lot of startup'ers who BART in from the East Bay to hang out in SoMa
during the day and then travel back out -- it's quite convenient and cost-
effective.

The downside is that many parts of Oakland are not ideal to live in, esp if
you have a girlfriend (personal safety, etc) -- however you might feel the
sacrifice is worth it in this situation.

~~~
SystemOut
For the East Bay I would look at Rockridge, Piedmont, parts of the Oakland
Hills such as Montclair and parts of Emeryville. Rockridge is the most
convienent to BART, however.

------
tjcrowley
Here are some good tips for self-employed apartment hunting in San Francisco:

1) Don't go to a rental company. Citiapartments sucks anyways, they are
crooks. 2) Walk around and take numbers off of buildings. The best apartments
never go on craigslist. 3) Network hard. You won't believe how many apartments
I got because I knew someone. I'm in a place in Nob Hill because I knew a girl
who was moving to CT. She'd lived here ten years, and I took the place over
from her with her rent control intact. I pay $1300 for a two bedroom with a
stunning view of the southern part of town. Of course, when times are tough I
also know where to get a $250 office space I can sleep in because of my
networking. 4) Bring your own credit reports.

That's really all I can say - I have been under- or self-employed for the
better part of a decade, and I've never had a problem finding a place to live.
I do have years of networking in this town too though so your mileage may
vary.

------
CaptainMorgan
I can't help with SF, but I've been looking in the Boston-North area for a
while, and in my experience apartment companies require a years worth of proof
so that you can prove you can pay off the lease. I dropped the apartment
market a while back and have been strictly looking at condos - which do
require a more stringent investigation into your finances.

Is living in SF a must - how are the burbs or just outside of SF comparable?
You may be able to find something for less a month and also easier on the
financial investigation.

Best of luck.

------
ApolloRising
Might be obvious but find a roommate that is renting out a room, then you
don't have to deal with any of those issues.

Just find a quiet one or one that is out a lot so that you being home all the
time does not bother either of you.

You may even catch a break with one that has a dog and you offer to walk it in
the afternoons during a coding break. Most people who have pets would love
someone to walk them during an afternoon.

~~~
akkartik
Thanks for the suggestion. I have a girlfriend, but maybe we have to go this
route.

------
InclinedPlane
If you have steady income, use your tax documents and bank records to prove
your income.

If you don't have income, can you afford the rent through the termination of
the lease? If you may not be able to, then you might need to room with someone
else or get a cosigner for your lease. If you can then find out whether you
can place a deposit or pay in advance (e.g. last months, last 2 months, etc.)

------
rdl
Find someone in SF looking for a roommate? (I just moved back to SOMA from
Afghanistan and am moving into a huge commercial space live/work with someone
and one empty spot, starting in January)

~~~
hedgehog
octal?

------
geuis
My roommate and I pay more than that for our place on Haight st. Getting an
apartment isn't hard. We make moderately good income and getting a place
wasn't hard at all.

------
lsc
sublet. or find a non-professional landlord. look around on craigslist.
there's plenty of people in trouble trying to get out of their lease.

Of course, I've not lived in the city proper, but I've lived in the bay area
on and off for most of my adult life, and I've not had any trouble avoiding
the corporate landlords who have funny rules.

My experience has been that the non-professionals usually have better prices,
too.

------
auston
super big deposit?

~~~
akkartik
Good point, I'll check.

It kinda sucks though to have your cash tied up right when you need it most.

~~~
tedunangst
The idea that you may need your cash for something besides rent is exactly the
landlord's concern.

~~~
dotBen
For me this comment hits the nail on the head...

You either offer to pay all/half of the year's rent in one go (and ask for a
discount for the privilege) because you have it now and u prob don't expect to
have cash flow during that time

..or you actually can't afford a year's lease on current savings, in which
case it's unlikely you can afford the place assuming no real cash flow during
the first year of a start up.

------
phony_identity
Lie.

------
charlesju
I think most of us living in SF have income and/or 250k in net worth.

------
bh23ha
Get into politics, and try to convince the people of SF that rent control is
stupid and needs to be done away with, use yourself as an example. Well that's
a good long term plan, in the short term, I'm afraid you might be screwed.

