
Amazon delivery drivers complain about bad work conditions - nreece
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5164407/Amazon-delivery-drivers-complain-bad-work-conditions.html
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anonathon0000
I'm a supervisor at UPS, so maybe I can offer an opinion (this is a throwaway
account).

I'm not sure if there is anything analogous to the US Department Of
Transportation in England, but we have to abide by pretty strict rules here in
the USA regarding driving hours. A UPS driver cannot work over 14 hours on a
shift, must have 10 hours between shifts, and cannot exceed 60 hours in a week
without (IIRC) 38 consecutive hours before the next shift. That being said, we
HIGHLY AVOID working drivers over 12 hours per shift, and try to take on a lot
of extra help during the holiday peak season so that the work is distributed
evenly.

From what I can tell from the article, these are probably inexperienced
drivers who may be on their own in regards to organizing their delivery route,
sorting packages on their vehicle, and learning their route. Because UPS has a
centralized management system (as apposed to FedEx, for instance, which is
contract based), we monitor every driver and can send other drivers to assist
anyone who begins to struggle.

Its not unheard-of for UPS drivers to pee in bottles (and less often, poop in
big plastic bags that are kept handy in the package cars). Its definitely not
_encouraged_ , but it happens, especially when you're on a rural route.

UPS drivers have it pretty good because of the collective bargaining that's
available through the union. We're definitely going to have some rough days
ahead of us for the next few weeks, but peak season is a big deal that we
prepare for months in advance.

~~~
bob_theslob646
Thank you for your candid response.

Would you be able to answer how many packages the average driver delivers on a
route and what happens if a package is stolen i.e who is liable?

Curious to see how often package theft occurs.

Thanks again!

~~~
Declanomous
I'm not op, but I'm a seasonal driver, and I've delivered about 200-250
packages a day on a suburban route so far. My understanding is that the number
of stops you have is directly related to the density of your route. So routes
with stops that are closer together have a lot more packages.

On my first day a package was stolen, and I got a stapled packet with all of
the information that UPS knew about the package (when it was delivered, what
location it was delivered to, where the truck was when it was marked
delivered), etc. I have to go interview the person making the claim.

We aren't supposed to leave any packages that are of obvious high value, such
as laptops, TV's, or any Apple product. Houses with a lot of claims will be
flagged and required to always sign for packages.

~~~
bob_theslob646
Interesting. Thank you for your reply. Have you heard of Amazon Key(
electronic lock so that owner's door can be opened for delivery driver.
[[https://www.amazon.com/b?&node=17285120011]](https://www.amazon.com/b?&node=17285120011\]))

Do you have any thoughts on that such as why Amazon would do that and if UPS
would do something similar?

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deanCommie
On reddit, "spagheddie" wrote:

 _I was once a FedEx delivery driver, so I don 't know how it is for Amazon,
but I would imagine it's similar? At FedEx we got paid per package delivered,
which means the faster you deliver your packages, the more you are technically
getting paid per hour. In addition to this, you'd get a daily bonus for
delivering the packages fast. We could take our lunches whenever, nobody cared
as long as the packages got delivered. However, very few people ever stopped
to eat their lunch. Most people would eat and drive. If there was a bathroom
on your route, that's cool, but otherwise you are peeing in a bottle because
you aren't trying to waste time searching for a bathroom when you could
potentially deliver 4 or 5 packages in that time. All of this holds especially
true at this time of the year, when guys are getting ran 6 days a week, with
200+ packages per day, and with the sun going down an hour earlier (night time
delivering slows you way the fuck down)._

 _Well what happens when you deliver so slow that you 're making less than
minimum wage? I don't know about Amazon, but at FedEx if you were so slow that
you made less than minimum wage with your per package deliveries, you were
simply paid minimum wage for that day's work._

 _Anyways, there are a lot of shitty jobs to have during the Christmas season
but, in my opinion, this is the worst one of them all. The pay isn 't bad if
you have your route down; but goddamn you can't even enjoy the damn holidays
because you're always on "go" mode._

[https://www.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/7iv6s9/amazon_dr...](https://www.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/7iv6s9/amazon_drivers_are_asked_to_deliver_up_to_200/dr1on4x/)

~~~
naner
I've noticed this sort of thing a lot in the job market: performance or pay
are directly tied to metrics resulting in employees being incentivized into
odd behaviors (breaking the law, sabotaging coworkers, skipping breaks/lunch,
stagtegically cancelling or avoiding work, etc). This type of management
through metrics goes hand in hand with the gig economy and also temp
agency/contract work.

~~~
zaptheimpaler
And the people making those incentives know it! They can't always legally tell
an employee to do bad/illegal things, but they sure know how to build a system
where thats the only option.

~~~
Cthulhu_
Exactly, it's in the company's best interest to have people do as much as
possible for as little as possible money. This is why we have worker rights,
things like minimum wage and maximum working hours. As well as health coverage
etc.

Or should anyway. But nope, money first, people second.

~~~
59nadir
Thanks, Ctulhu, for looking out for the common man. :)

On-topic: Workers' rights have taken a backseat due to aggressive lobbying for
several decades, not least in the US.

Even in countries with very strong socialist foundations unions are hollowed
out to the point where entire fields like IT feel like they have no use for
them. Sweden is a good example: IT professionals are sought after to the point
where they currently (rightly) feel like they have no use for unions, but when
they turn out to be the new factory workers they won't have an already
established base to unionize on.

Maybe I'm silly to worry, but I feel like this is all a pretty big mistake.

~~~
zxd1098
Are you actually advocating for socialism on a site centered around VC-funded
tech companies that absolutely couldn’t exist in a socialist country? Awesome.

~~~
taohansen
VC-backed companies do exist in socialist countries (i’m from Denmark). maybe
it’s all time Hacker News readers did start arguing for socialism: self-
obsession exists now in more abundance than ever and capitalism is doing
everything it can to broaden the cloak of its dreadful shadow

~~~
zxd1098
I guess my point is, the socialist movement in the USA seems to favor things
like taxing income over 1MM USD at 90ish percent. At that point, what would
possibly be the point of risking a 1MM investment to only make 10% if the
company doubled in value?

~~~
Saavedro
Our system is already structured in a way to incentivize actually reinvesting
and doing stuff with that money instead of adding it to one's personal hoard
-- think that but enough to actually be effective

------
nocoder
In India, this gets worse. Lot of delivery guys use 2 wheelers and can often
been seen carrying a huge bag full of packages on their bikes. Moreover many
buildings don't have lifts so they end up carrying this load up 2 or 3
storeys. This is extremely back breaking work and add to that the pressure to
deliver packages on time and navigating crazy Indian traffic on two wheelers
with such heavy loads. On the other hand I am not sure what can be done....
People are just concerned about their convenience with no regards for rights
of the delivery people. And given the level of unemployment it is unlikely
that there will be protests from the drivers. While Indian e-commerce booms it
will be on the backs of these guys.

~~~
tomcam
Sobering, and almost physically painful to read. Probably the only realistic
solution is the booming economy in India. Eventually, one hopes, there will be
better accommodations for everyone, and the drivers will benefit along with
everyone else. I assume unionization would not work due to the huge supply of
alternate employees?

~~~
nocoder
Yeah... There are too many desperate and unemployed people for unionization to
make an impact. You can just get rid of the union employees. Given the poor
educational investments lot of people are simply not equipped to exploit the
opportunities in booming economy. This basically results in larger inequality
since for high paying jobs there is lot of competition due to talent crunch
driving wages up. At the same time for menial jobs there is too much labor
leading to downward pressure on wages. Combine the two and you have ballooning
inequality. My fear is that India might end up there.

~~~
robryan
Bad for employees but when I have been there in the past I was impressed with
how quickly things would be delivered from Amazon in Mumbai.

------
mabbo
It's such a complex situation. Amazon has contracts with small companies who
provide trucks and humans. Amazon provides the work, the groups of packages,
the routes, the app the drivers need to use to deliver.

The companies compete with each other for more 'routes' each day. They offer
to take on more work, to do more. And then they hire anyone they can to
fulfill those routes. The drivers themselves are on contracts with the small
companies that can end at any time. Not making your rate? Up to the small
company to decide if you have a contract tomorrow.

The contracts themselves presume the drivers will deliver a route in a
specific number of hours for a fixed rate of pay. But newbies work at a much
slower rate. And during the holiday season, they need a lot of extra labor- a
lot of newbies.

Who is to blame? Amazon? The companies? The drivers? Capitalism gone mad? Take
your pick.

~~~
dazc
'Who is to blame? Amazon? The companies? The drivers? Capitalism gone mad?
Take your pick.'

You can add 'customers' to this list since this is where it all begins.

It isn't so long ago that all people complained about was the time it took for
stuff to be delivered and all those 'we called but there was no one in' cards.

So capitalism responded and now folks have something else to complain about.

~~~
tobbyb
Customers can only choose not demand, so this is simply a red herring to shift
and diffuse blame and responsibility to consumers from the primary abuser who
is actually doing this, and create an environment of helplessness.

Tomorrow if customers demand 10% of the existing prices are companies going to
line up with slave labour conditions to deliver and then shift blame?
Responsibility does not work like this.

~~~
dazc
'..are companies going to line up with slave labour conditions to deliver and
then shift blame?'

No because we don't drag people off the street and force them to be delivery
drivers. There is a level at which people feel incentivised to do this kind of
work and there is a level at which they look for something else.

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tyingq
_" skip lunch and urinate in plastic bottles, and some return to homes after
their 9pm deadline"_

 _" the allocation and number of stops, and the volume to be distributed for
any given day, lies entirely with Amazon."_

Argh. If true, hopefully someone can verify the claims and raise some
visibility.

~~~
leggomylibro
"Use contractors, they said. It's so much easier and cheaper, they said..."

I don't have any evidence as to the accuracy of this anecdote, but when I see
those news stories about delivery drivers shitting on someone's lawn, this is
right where my mind goes.

'That person probably had an insane deadline to meet and no protections
ensuring that they get time for basic and universal human functions.'

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quantumofmalice
There was a time when you could give a christmas bonus to the mail man. I wish
that the delivery men were more consistent, I would love to be able to give
them a cash gift for all the work they do for me and my family on a regular
basis.

Unfortunately it seems like during the holidays the usual delivery guy isn't
around and it's a chaotic mix of people.

While we are here, I hate that they are now making people deliver on Sundays.
Every year I struggle more with the morality of the package economy.

~~~
dashundchen
USPS now delivers exclusively on Sunday for Amazon. It looks like they are
expanding this service with lower wage jobs, with less benefits compared to
the traditional postal worker.

I was shocked to receive a package from Amazon via USPS this past Labor day,
of all days.

Quite depressing to see the continued erosion of rights workers fought for
over the past century, to service one of the most powerful companies in the
country. I've been trying to opt myself out of Amazon where possible.

[https://www.alternet.org/labor](https://www.alternet.org/labor) /horrific-
new-marriage-between-your-post-office-and-amazon-sunday

~~~
WhitneyLand
You are misguided, working on Sunday is orthogonal to treating workers well. I
admire your concern, but other metrics shine much more light on concern for
humanity.

Growing up in Las Vegas, working on weekends was I think, beyond even what
you’d imagine in some tourist destinations, some of those are at least were
seasonal. Imagine if your delivery person who you are concerned about, worked
weeekends and also in the middle of the night on a swing shift, my parents
did.

Were all the casinos great places to work because of all this? Absolutely not,
some made Amazon look great. However, I observed:

\- There were big differences in treatment of employees between different
operators. The overall effort and concern they had, or did not have,
overshadows any single issue. So it’s good to call out businesses, but to
encourage the right behavior a broader set of metrics is better.

\- Families can be healthy and thrive with weekend and shift work if it’s done
right, without crushing overtime or 12 hour days, and if they are treated well
overall. Things in life just happen at different times come to seem quite
normal.

------
zw123456
I always wondered why not have all delivery done at night? There is a lot less
traffic generally between 10PM and 6AM for example, it seems like they could
do a lot more deliveries and it would put less load on the highways and be
safer and less stressful for drivers. And not sitting in traffic jams means
less fuel consumption. Is there some reason why that is not done?

~~~
wunderg
Good luck finding any houses at night or being shot while trying to use
flashlight

~~~
thisone
pretty much. A couple weeks ago there was a post to the facebook group for my
village 'watch out there's a man with a white van shining a torch into
people's houses'

To be followed by comments saying 'that's just the Hermes delivery guy'

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wnevets
dailymail.co.uk really shouldn't be on the front page of hn, its a tabloid.

~~~
Theodores
Stop Funding Hate is a pressure group outing major brands and getting the to
apologise for advertising in the Daily Mail, e.g. 'Paperchase', last week or
so:

[http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-42058103](http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-42058103)

So this is a valid point, HN needs to find better sources that the Daily Mail.
In light of this, here you go:

[https://www.glassdoor.co.uk/Reviews/Amazon-Flex-
Reviews-E132...](https://www.glassdoor.co.uk/Reviews/Amazon-Flex-
Reviews-E1324363.htm)

~~~
gadders
Stop funding hate is a pressure group consisting of a few hundred far-left
agitators. Censorship should be opposed in all forms.

[https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/11/stop-funding-hate-
nast...](https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/11/stop-funding-hate-nasty-
elitist-campaign-press-censorship/)

------
Manglano
They're probably reaching road vehicle bandwidth saturation, which is
affecting drivers and warehouse workers downstream of the web interface.
Refactoring their supply model for depots and reallocating staff to the
depots.

Y'know, the Amazon General Store.

------
twobyfour
Yet another point in the "don't use Amazon" column. Yes, it can be slightly
less convenient to have to shop around - but if you can afford it, it's worth
it for the peace of mind.

Besides, I no longer trust Amazon to send me the actual product listed. The
small retailers have been far more reliable in that regard.

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purplezooey
This "hire contractors" story is getting very familiar, ie Uber. Maybe we
haven't had much innovation outside of writing the software and making the
distribution chain. We need more roads and transit too.

------
hitekker
I'd change the verb in the title to "criticize" instead of "complain about".

~~~
ebiester
How about "reveal"?

------
aviv
They also deliver very late at night, past 11pm kind of late.

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zeep
pesos have to flow in the right direction...

