
Lenovo now shipping Ubuntu on high end workstations in the US - popey
https://www.lenovo.com/us/en/think-workstations/thinkstation-p-series-towers/ThinkStation-P520/p/33TS3TPP520
======
OrangeMango
I went to the linked page and tried to make configuration changes - the same
computer with and without Windows. I couldn't find that option.

On Dell's website, they let you do this to many of their workstation computers
and it appears that the cost of Windows is around $200. What's interesting is
that when they are clearing out stock and they offer some basic workstation
configurations at $500 or so, you can still delete Windows and get that $200
off the price.

~~~
ilikepi
I messed with the low-end config a a bit, and it looked like the "Windows 10
Pro 64bit English,Spanish,French" license is more like around $100. Still a
nice drop though. Too bad there's no way to choose "No OS installed", but
maybe Canonical kicks them a little bit of money to offer Ubuntu.

~~~
RandomGuyDTB
Didn't Europe (maybe someone else) forbid shipping computers without operating
systems? Might be because of that.

~~~
Lio
I’m pretty sure it’s Microsoft that pressures manufacturers to not offer PCs
without operating systems not “Europe”.

I don’t think they ever went as far as threatening companies for selling Linux
systems but it’s well documented that they withdrew discounts from suppliers
offering OS/2 with computers.

------
gonzo41
This is great but I'd still just format the drives and load from an image I
put onto a thumb drive. Who knows what new glassfish-esq malware they have
integrated into the factory OS.

~~~
noinsight
Reinstalling doesn’t necessarily help - coincidentally (or not), Lenovo has
been caught in the past embedding crap into the firmware so it persists
through reinstalls.

[https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20150812/11395231925/lenov...](https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20150812/11395231925/lenovo-
busted-stealthily-installing-crapware-via-bios-fresh-windows-installs.shtml)

~~~
pritambaral
To quote a cousin comment[1]:

That's relying on a Windows misfeature. Ubuntu is not going to pull crap from
the firmware after a clean reinstall, but Windows does just that.

1:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22191786](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22191786)

------
paulcarroty
[https://www.computerworld.com/article/2890166/lenovo-to-
flus...](https://www.computerworld.com/article/2890166/lenovo-to-flush-
crapware-from-its-consumer-pcs-after-superfish-sin.html)

I have no trust for Lenovo after this incident.

~~~
dandelo1953
️ Things happen.

It's embarrassing to have to disclose such a thing to the public, but they
did. I don't recall anything nefarious and they owned up - to at least some
extent.

That is more than a lot companies can say. Is that the ONLY reason why you dis
Lenovo? Because if so, it makes them that much more attractive in my book of
flippant remarks

~~~
jammygit
> Is that the ONLY reason why you dis Lenovo?

They installed spyware. That is more than enough reason to lose trust. IIRC,
they did it more than once too[1].

If that isn’t cause enough, what is? Would it take pre-installed ransomware to
lose trust?

[https://thehackernews.com/2015/09/lenovo-laptop-
virus.html?m...](https://thehackernews.com/2015/09/lenovo-laptop-
virus.html?m=1)

~~~
krn
> They installed spyware. That is more than enough reason to lose trust.

I agree on principle, but Lenovo is no less trustworthy than any Smart TV
manufacturer, such as Samsung, Sony, or LG.

It has become a common industry practice to subsidize consumer hardware with
pre-installed spyware. The only solution here is to replace the pre-installed
OS with an open-source alternative.

I would still pick Lenovo ThinkPad running Fedora Workstation over any iMac or
Macbook product.

~~~
pmontra
Well, yes but at least I can refrain from setting the Wi-Fi password in my TV
and still end up with a perfectly working TV (I do.) A computer without
Internet is not very useful nowadaysm

~~~
krzyk
Well, until TV manufacturers will choose to add a GSM module to TVs :)

~~~
krn
And that shouldn't be far away:

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ESIM](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ESIM)

------
leetrout
I wonder if there is some market pressure from players like System76?

For anyone coming along- I managed two Lenovo ThinkStation P7 series towers
and these cases (the P5 series looks almost identical) are really great.
Everything in the case is screw-less / tool-less. I can't remember how the M.2
drives mounted- they may have had a screw but it was a great case.

~~~
mikece
Speeaking of System 76: is Pop_OS easier to use than Mint? Does it support
things like watching Netflix and DVDs without needing to look for packages and
apps to install?

~~~
Zhyl
For Netflix and DVDs both are the same (seamless out-of-the-box). Pop!_OS has
an advantage on NVidia drivers as you can select a download which includes
them and enables them by default. Mint includes a driver manager which makes
installation straightforward, but it's an additional step and nouveau is
enabled by default.

I recently installed pop on my new build because the graphics card I was using
caused crashes on nouveau (Mint) but worked flawlessly out of the box with the
NVidia drivers on pop.

------
loudmax
Ships with Windows or Ubuntu. RHEL 7.3 officially supported.

Well, this is a positive development. I'd really like to see official support
for something in the ThinkPad line, but after jumping through some hoops
during installation, I've had zero problems running Arch on my Carbon X1.

~~~
kart23
Yeah, my t480s has been pretty good with arch as well. Except the wifi is
sometimes finicky, but I've experienced stuff like that on nearly any machine.
My Dell xps 13 surprisingly had a couple issues, though it was a ~2016. I
heard they fixed a lot in later models.

------
emadehsan
Will they be putting Lenovo bloatware on Ubuntu too?

There are more than 200,000 google search results for "remove Lenovo
bloatware", for their laptops that ship with Windows

~~~
myself248
This is a super valid point, and I'd never trust a factory Linux install any
more than I'd trust a factory Windows install. Wipe and start from trusted
media, 100% of the time.

The news here is that my machine is still supported if I do that. I don't have
to wipe Linux and reinstall Windows and deny ever having run Linux on it
before sending it back for service, if that becomes necessary.

And things like the fingerprint reader drivers might suck less.

~~~
wedesoft
New machines all use UEFI. There's plenty of space for malware to hide in
there.

------
Animats
Right. The Linux machine starts above $6000, and the Windows 10 machines start
below $2000. You do not get the option to select Ubuntu on the low-end
machines, although it would work.

Microsoft is really scared of vendors selling low-cost Linux desktops and
laptops.

------
ansible
That's nice and all. But I'd much rather just build PCs in-house for work.

It is just a serviceability issue. These systems often incorporate nonstandard
power supplies, motherboards and such, making it difficult to repair and in
many cases, impossible to upgrade piecemeal.

Since building my most recent work PC in 2012, I have:

Upgraded the memory.

Added hard drives, including a couple SSDs recently.

Upgraded the power supply.

Upgraded the GPU.

Installed all the old parts in a new case, so that I could go with liquid
cooling for the CPU.

In a few years I'll likely replace the motherboard, CPU and memory, but the
i7-3770 and 32GB of DDR3 is good enough for now.

~~~
loudmax
For a PC to use at home, I agree 100%. If you're the kind of person that's
likely to upgrade RAM or components I wouldn't recommend this for personal
use.

This is geared toward enterprise use. Think, corporate IT department that
needs to support dozens of these. They want a service contract and they'll
probably replace the lot of them in five years. Having some weird proprietary
components in there isn't a problem. After all, if they need help
troubleshooting they'll have direct access to an engineer at Lenovo.

~~~
kbenson
Exactly, and if they have enough volume, they can really nail down any
lingering bugs or problems in the chipsets or firmware and it turns into a
rock-solid system. Anything else and the manufacturer (Lenovo, Dell, HP) lose
money on their support costs.

If I was responsible for buying workstations for an office, I would definitely
choose a standard business configuration over building it myself. If I
expected those workstations to be running Linux, I would definitely attempt to
buy one that was designed to work well with Linux for the same reasons.

Note: This is also why some companies buy Dell/Lenovo/HP servers even though
they cost more. Support. The components are all _very_ well tested together,
and any bug you encounter you can expect other people to have encountered and
complained about as well, and hopefully should have a fix on the way (or
already available through a firmware upgrade). I've also heard this is why
Dell drives cost so much. They make sure to have stock around for you years
later in case you need replacements, so you can replace with the exact same
drive model.

------
delfinom
Wonder what crapware they managed to preload that may be even more difficult
to remove on Linux than on Windows without the nuclear option.

~~~
mindcrime
Probably none. In my experience (and I was a Lenovo employee until very
recently) most - if not all - of the Lenovo employees understand that
SuperFish / etc. were a huge mistake, and are very diligent about not doing
anything that could be perceived as going down a similar path again.

Of course it's a big company and there may be somebody hidden away in some
corner planning "SuperFish 2.0", but the people I interacted with with were
all pretty committed to _not_ engaging in those kinds of behaviors. Take that
FWIW.

Disclosure: I was with Lenovo until recently, and I still have friends who
work there, but I have no financial stake of any sort in this discussion.

------
jedieaston
That’s neat. Does anyone know why they are targeting a 3D animation workload,
specifically? Is there software for rendering ran on Linux machines that’s
used in industry?

~~~
loudmax
I wonder if this isn't in response to a single large customer. Maybe some film
studio has ordered a large number of these and they want official support for
the OS of their choice. Since Lenovo is already supporting this configuration
for one particular customer, it's relatively easy for them to offer support to
anyone else who wants to run the same platform.

~~~
mindcrime
FWIW, I was a Lenovo employee up until a couple of months ago, and while I
didn't work in that division specifically, you hear rumblings. And there is
definitely a sentiment among many within Lenovo that wants to push Linux
harder, in order to get out from under Microsoft's thumb. It's a delicate
dance though, as Lenovo (like all PC OEM's at the moment) is so dependent on
MS. And I don't know if this sentiment goes as high as the CEO or not, but I
do know that it goes pretty damn high up the corporate hierarchy.

~~~
xur17
I would love for them to do this. Definitely pisses me off everytime I go to
buy a new pc, and have to pay for a Windows license that I immediately wipe
from the machine. Any reason they got rid of the blank disk option?

~~~
mindcrime
I'm not sure. Those decisions were made fairly far from my group. :-(

------
Aaronstotle
Why don't they throw in a ryzen processor? Paying 1400 for a 4 core cpu in
2020 is a complete joke.

~~~
penagwin
Don't quote me but I'm pretty sure Intel has contracts/discounts for most OEMs
and I'm sure they've written them in a way to 'discourage' them from throwing
Ryzen CPUs in the mix.

------
miguelmota
I placed an order for a high-end Lenovo computer last year in mid December and
it was expected to arrive late January this year. I checked the order status
and it said the computer hasn't shipped. I contacted Lenovo multiple times to
see what was going on and they would always state that it'll ship soon. More
days go by and the order status hasn't changed. I had to file a BBB complaint
to have someone actually tell me what's the hold up. A few more weeks go by
and I get a Lenovo sales rep to tell that the computer won't ship until April
because they are waiting on parts. I obviously cancelled the order since
waiting for 4 months for a computer to ship is pretty insane. I love Lenovo
computers but the purchasing experience has a lot left to be desired. Looked
at reddit and forum posts and apparently Lenovo is known to always have highly
inaccurate shipping estimates. Just something to be aware of if you're
thinking about ordering from the Lenovo site. /end rant

~~~
lykr0n
If the CPU is Intel there is a massive shortage of their chips due to slow
production.

Might be why

~~~
iopq
I'm so ready for AMD 4000 parts in laptops

------
marriedWpt
I'm not sure how Ubuntu desktop became the standard for Linux desktop.

I love Ubuntu server, but some quick issues with Ubuntu desktop- Netflix needs
a hard to install plugin, mouse acceleration cannot be disabled completely,
unstable operating system installs that could break with a reboot or update.

Like I said, love ubuntu server, but I can't understand why Ubuntu desktop is
recommended.

~~~
mikece
I'm not a "Linux community member" but I have never understood why having a
popular distro that included non-F/OSS libraries and tools in the distro to
make the transition easier for people coming from macOS and Linux was such a
bad thing or a reason to fight. If, instead of Ubuntu, something like Mint
were the Linux distro option for Lenovo, HP, Dell, etc then new users could do
"common user things" like watch Netflix, play a DVD, etc. Those of us a little
more hard core already know how to get Fedora, Debian, or Slackware running
(and drivers cajoled into working) on the hardware so why not aim for a larger
audience? Making Mint a popular choice will be a benefit for Debian (and
Ubuntu as long as LMDE isn't the flavor or Mint being offered and supported).

~~~
TheCoelacanth
It just the inevitable conflict between deontological and consequentialist
ethics.

Deontological ethics: non-free software is bad, so making a distro that
includes non-free software is bad

Consequentialist ethics: non-free software is bad, so reducing the amount of
non-free software that someone uses by giving them a mostly-free distro that
includes non-free software is good

There's never going to be agreement because they are using completely
different frameworks for judging if an action is good or bad.

~~~
parvenu74
You don't think that going the "Consequentialist Route" and funding bounties
for developing F/OSS alternatives to the non-free components[1] if viable?
What's not viable, in my opinion, is the shunning by the purists of everyone
who doesn't believe and act like them. Some of us might if we're allowed to
get there one step at a time and if they encouraged the transition the F/OSS
as a whole would benefit.

[1] Setting aside issues like NVidia drivers...

~~~
the8472
> What's not viable, in my opinion, is the shunning by the purists of everyone
> who doesn't believe and act like them.

That is hardly consequential(ist). The group doesn't exactly wield much power.
What influence they have is setting the bar higher so that others can get
there one step at a time as you say.

------
Koremat6666
I recently switched from Macbook Pro to X1 Carbon. I would have loved to have
Ubuntu installed on it and everything working. I would happily pay USD 100 to
Levono or someone else to install a clean Ubuntu image.

Majority of my work happens in browser, shell and Intellij so I would not care
much about anything else. Windows is too crappy at this point IMO.

~~~
Spivak
I don’t imagine there are many users that would be willing to pay more for a
laptop preinstalled with a Linux distro.

The Windows license is still valuable even if all I do with it is run a couple
programs in a VM. Some people might bite for a discount but it seems silly to
pay more!

------
esaym
I'm still rocking the T520 thinkpad from 2012 with quad core i7. I thought I'd
replace it in 2020, but here we are. I really don't see anything that is
really any faster or has the linux compatiblity. Hoping it changes soon, I've
used it as my main work machine all these years.

~~~
TaylorAlexander
I use a Thinkpad carbon X1 with Debian. Fantastically portable with all day
battery life. Just make sure to check the Arch wiki (regardless of which Linux
you install) for a few special commands needed to make everything work
properly.

~~~
esaym
The carbon never supported the docking stations right? I always liked a
docking station so I can drop the laptop on it and have all my desk monitors
come to life. But seems like docking stations aren't really popular anymore
either... (which is one reason I never went with system76)

~~~
the8472
You can get most of that through thunderbolt hubs these days, there's little
need for proprietary docking station connectors.

~~~
ohazi
PSA to everyone using a recent ThinkPad: Update your thunderbolt firmware.
Boot into Windows if you have to... This one is a might-break-your-hardware
class bug.

[https://github.com/fwupd/missing-firmware-lenovo-
thinkpad/is...](https://github.com/fwupd/missing-firmware-lenovo-
thinkpad/issues/32)

~~~
TaylorAlexander
Damn. Thanks for the heads up. I erased windows without ever booting it, but
hopefully this can be done without it.

------
Stierlitz
For a technology company, the site is sluggish and difficult to use. Argos
would provide a better user experience. They don't allow Linux on the 'build
your own' option, but at least you do get McAfee. The Linux ThinkStation P520
starts at $6,699.00. Searching from the main screen you get a ThinkStation
P520 at £1,359.60 but no option to select Linux.

Searching for 'linux' off the main screen and you're lead to a selection of 3
Operating Systems, Windows, Windows, Windows. Are MS paying the to keep alien
OSes off Lenovo hardware?

------
gfiorav
I'm not really proud of this, but I never really found a Linux OS (or BSD)
that "just worked". Maybe I'm too picky, but just being able to resize windows
dynamically should be out-of-the-box.

Ever since Windows steered away from Balmer and WSL and other things
happened... I'm really comfortable in Windows. It's polished and offers all
the Linux I need.

~~~
0xffff2
I agree with Linux, but I'm surprised to see anyone call modern Windows
"polished". Late editions of Windows XP were polished. Windows 10 is a pile of
untested junk. Things break all the time. Things rely on an internet
connection for no good reason all the time. Baked in, impossible to disable
telemetry. I put up with it, but only because none of my corporate software
works on Linux.

~~~
gfiorav
I don’t really have that experience. I do leave everything on defaults and use
all terminal tools to program (editing too) so I guess I’m not really asking
much of it

~~~
modo_mario
Try to do some system management and you'll often realize the steaming pile of
shit under the fancy looking hood. Sudden changes to SMB configuration after
updates bringing issues that differ not by version after the updates but by
version of when they were first installed... and all of a sudden there's a bug
with NTLMv2 and what have you, etc, etc

------
chad_strategic
I just built my own computer. It was a little annoying but kinda fun at the
same time. My Ubuntu computer is better than the one pictured and cheaper. It
also has cool LED lights.

I would never buy a Lenovo.

I’m going to need a labtop soon (won’t be my main computer), I’m probably
going to get a used $200 dell laptop and install Ubuntu and it will run like a
champ...

------
fkfaduc
Althoug I believe this is a good thing for Lenovo to do I think being
suspicious of Lenovo's actions is definitely warranted after all the
shenanigans with Superfish - reinstalling the OS from a trusted source is
definitely the way to go.

------
sabas_ge
But still no fingerprint sensor driver on Ubuntu for Lenovo :(

------
x__x
Can anyone recommend a netbook or smaller laptop good for recent release of
Ubuntu?

~~~
minieggs
If you edit your text in a terminal and use a light weight browser: Asus'
E203MA has been working well for me. The CPU is slow. There's not much RAM. I
wouldn't run Gnome on it. XFCE, Mate, i3 have all been good.

It's underpowered, it's cheap, but wow does the battery last forever (10
hours).

Beware: Ubuntu's palm rejection is very poor out of the box. No palm rejection
issues on Arch or Mint.

------
shmerl
How about starting offering refund for the Windows tax for Linux users on any
purchased hardware? Lenovo are disgusting in refusing to refund the Windows
tax. One of the worst companies to deal with in this regard.

Of course, a lot better would be to have an option to buy any of their
computers with Linux to begin with.

------
originalbryan2
Is it the year of the Linux desktop?!?!

~~~
grappler
I know you're at least half joking, but for me it actually _is_ the year of
linux on the desktop.

As a developer who does server-side stuff, a mac was an obvious easy choice
for a long time -- a tradition that has been widespread going at least as far
back as dhh's intro to rails development using textmate [1].

What does that open source crowd want now? They want to build OCI/docker
containers and deploy them to kubernetes clusters. You can do that on mac, but
these containers need to run on a linux kernel, so the setup winds up as
containers on a VM on the host OS.

If your dev machine is linux, you can remove the VM layer in between and the
setup is simpler and more efficient. I think that might push a lot of
developers from mac to linux. I just got a new dev machine recently and it's a
linux laptop.

[1]
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gzj723LkRJY](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gzj723LkRJY)

