
What Dropbox dropping Linux support says - ScottWRobinson
https://www.techrepublic.com/article/what-dropbox-dropping-linux-support-says/
======
jmull
> ...it never ceases to amaze me that Linux has yet to take hold on the
> desktop market.

If you don’t get this you should probably just admit you don’t understand the
desktop market and refrain from commenting.

~~~
hluska
I understand the desktop market, but I don't understand why a Linux
distribution hasn't taken hold on the desktop market.

A vast number of users use their computers to check email, look up things on
the web, and type up an occasional document. There are several Linux
distributions that can do these things quite easily out of the box. Meanwhile,
Microsoft has been steadily sabotaging Windows. And Apple is simply too
expensive for the average user.

That doesn't seem too controversial. You'll have to explain why I should
'refrain from commenting'.

~~~
AnIdiotOnTheNet
> A vast number of users use their computers to check email, look up things on
> the web, and type up an occasional document.

This kind of condescension towards users and what they use a computer for is
precisely why Linux doesn't have a foothold on the Desktop. Linux Desktop
people design for some imagined person who, to the extent that they even
exist, doesn't care at all about their operating system. They try so hard to
make it easy by automating what they think the user wants to do that they make
the system incredibly complicated and inflexible so everything falls to pieces
the moment the user tries to color outside the lines.

This is sorta what parent meant, I think. If you don't understand why Linux is
a failure on the desktop, you don't understand why people use desktops.

~~~
hluska
You would have more success convincing people if you were a little more
charitable. It is very difficult to have a reasonable conversation when it
starts with an insult.

That is not condescension as I am not condescending towards users. Rather,
it's reality. I volunteer with an association of retired people and 100% of
our executive and every single member I have ever spoken to fits in in that
group. They don't do more than that because frankly, they don't particularly
like their computers. I also briefly sold computers when I was in University.
Over that 18 months, I'd say that 85% of people who needed my help were
looking for machines that could do exactly that.

Finally, I really question what kind of Linux distrust you use. With a half
decent, consumer focused distribution, I can't imagine how anything could fall
to pieces the moment someone colours outside the lines.

~~~
lakechfoma
If we're trading anecdotes about a really specific subset of users here, I
know a bunch of "retired people" who also almost exclusively do email, but you
know they also like things to be easy, intuitive, familiar, functional and
still kind of pretty like they're actually part of the future. They absolutely
can not have it break. And you know what? They do want more features that they
can use, it isn't that they only want email because it is all they can use,
it's just the rest is not easy/intuitive/familiar or is providing no greater
value to their now limited time. What value does linux desktop bring to them?
It's a liability with no advantages.

So now a bunch have started using things like amazon photos which has
encouraged them to become more interested in their android devices, branching
out into other fun photo apps and home IoT crap. Another bunch (quite the
dividing line here) has gotten more involved in iCloud shared albums and thus
again more interested in the Apple ecosystem. They went from cheap "PC" buyers
to MBP because they thought the UX was that much better, because facetime and
iMessage and other cool things.

Linux Desktop can't compete even in that easiest of user segments.

~~~
fao_
> Linux Desktop can't compete even in that easiest of user segments.

This is amusing, because I had to use a MBP for work a year ago, and I still
have flashbacks of how painful it was to use in general usage. I mean, for
heaven's sake, copy and paste was always, constantly broken. I'm not actually
sure how you manage to break something that's been a mainstay of the computer
UI for 37 years, but they managed it. And that's not to talk about the window
focusing problems, and all of the other crap I experienced. Have you ever seen
a (very skilled) senior developer lose all of their windows? I have. It was a
regular occurrence because the MBP was unable to cope properly with a second
monitor of varying sizes.

Alas, I will leave it there. /rant

~~~
lakechfoma
I've never heard of these complaints? This sounds much more like typical Linux
Desktop issues in my mind.

Though at this point Windows 10 constantly loses windows on monitors that no
longer exist...sometimes even the password prompt on my work laptop lock
screen ceases to exist but I found plugging it into an external monitor brings
it back on the laptop monitor...

------
mxuribe
I think the challenge in all this is the office suite and stable/native device
drivers.

Firstly, the "Deciders" in the medium and large enterprises most often simply
go with Microsoft's Office products. Regardless if libreoffice (and similar
open source office suite offerings) provide the same functionality, these
Deciders are already won over; so they simply "go with the flow". In order for
there to be some sort of universal linux, there has to be an easy way to run
Microsoft's Office products. That takes care of a huge number of typical
office worker use-cases. (I'm leaving out surfing on the web, because that is
already proven on any linux machine.)

Secondly, there is a need for native device drivers. If the Deciders can
choose computers for their office workers that "just work", then their choice
is easier. For this, computer manufacturers have to really help in crafting
native device drivers that support linux.

I firmly believe that once the above 2 conditions are attended to, linux will
then become something the Deciders can consider for the enterprise...then -
with that many large numbers of users around the world - linux will have its
day on the desktop.

~~~
bunderbunder
I think you've got a critical detail wrong here: You're attributing way too
much deciding power to the "decider".

The head of IT (or whoever) is not someone who gets to just make decisions by
fiat. It's someone whose job is fundamentally to respond to the needs and
demands of others. Until a significant number of the staff start demanding a
Linux desktop environment, a Linux desktop environment is not realistically an
option for the "decider". Not if they want to keep their job, anyway.

And, when it comes to the non-techie business members, I just don't see Linux
having anything to attract them. What can it do _better_ than Windows, from
the perspective of Bob from accounting? _Not_ abstract political stuff, mind
-- he's just interested in being able to get his job done more easily so he
can go home at 5 and kick a ball around with his kid before dinner.

------
PurpleRamen
Misleading title. They don't drop linux-support, they drop support for certain
filesystems and defined which filesystems they will continue to support.

------
wbl
The whole point of filesystems is they present the same interface. ZFS and
ext4 should just work the same for Dropbox.

~~~
freedomben
> _The whole point of filesystems is they present the same interface. ZFS and
> ext4 should just work the same for Dropbox._

This is unfortunately not true, especially with ZFS and ext4 that you
mentioned. ZFS is different enough that you can't even use tools like `df` and
`du`. You need to use the ZFS tools.

~~~
userbinator
_ZFS is different enough that you can 't even use tools like `df` and `du`._

I'm not as sure about df, but I've written a du or at least something
approaching one before --- how does it not break every other application that
relies on stat() and the file size that it returns?

~~~
cmurphycode
One reason for du/df problems with ZFS is ZFS compression.

------
LambdaComplex
> UPDATE: Although Dropbox will not support ext4 filesystems that have been
> encrypted with ecryptfs, it will continue to support ext4 filesystems that
> have been encrypted with LUKS.

So, this entire article is complaining about something that isn't even true

~~~
eythian
No, just that it was originally under specified. It supports _some_ encryption
(i.e. the type it can't tell is there anyway.) It doesn't support one of the
common ways of doing home directory encryption. So the article is definitely
true, just more accurate with that update included. That also isn't the crux
of the article's point anyway.

------
anotherevan
While I use ext4 on my home Linux machine, so not hit there. However on my
office Windows machine my Dropbox folder resides on a Veracrypt (née
Truecrypt) partition, which Dropbox has started complaining about.

So far SyncThing is looking pretty good in general. Two things I would really
like to see:

* Support for non-trusted servers[1]

* Android app that is able to view and pull files down as desired (and possibly with the option to flag individual files to always be cached locally). You usually don't want your phone to hold local copies of everything in the shared folder(s) as it is usually space constrained.

[1]
[https://github.com/syncthing/syncthing/issues/109](https://github.com/syncthing/syncthing/issues/109)

~~~
bchallenor
syncthing-lite [1] is already supposed to do what you want for your second
point. But it's not really there yet. I haven't managed to get it to work
reliably (unlike the original app, which is great).

[1] [https://github.com/syncthing/syncthing-
lite](https://github.com/syncthing/syncthing-lite)

------
linuxlizard
Developing software for Linux is like painting a moving train. I can
understand their problem.

------
belltaco
>Outside of this being a big mistake on the part of Dropbox

Why is it a big mistake? Most likely they're not seeing enough revenue to keep
supporting the other filesystems, otherwise why would they cancel support for
them?

>Given the disaster that has been Windows over the last few years

Only if you don't come out of your bubble.

~~~
rogerbinns
> Why is it a big mistake? Most likely they're not seeing enough revenue to
> keep supporting the other filesystems, otherwise why would they cancel
> support for them?

Dropbox is in a viral business, and they were the only ones who supported
Linux.

Starting with Linux support, Dropbox's competition essentially completely
ignores Linux. Box, Google Drive, One Drive etc all have no official Linux
client. That makes it fair to say that some of Dropbox's customers are there
because of the Linux support (I'm one of them). Note that a customer doesn't
wholly have to be on Linux, but if for example 10% of the people at a customer
could be on Linux, so using Dropbox for all of them makes sense, because of
the Linux minority.

This is a viral business in that you use similar tools to collaborate with
others. Dropbox did their spread not via marketing, but by word of mouth and
minor storage bonuses as rewards for the spread. (Been there, done that.) But
now there is going to be limiting of that spread by Linux folk affected by
this.

Dropbox is now going to lose $1k+ per year because I'm dropping them as a paid
personal and work customer. A tiny drop in the bucket indeed, but this will
all add up. I think they are idiotic to take a unique selling point, and throw
that away. I can't think of a single thing that makes them competitive with
the alternatives now. The technical solution I would adopt is a more minimal
sync mode when operating on non-optimal filesystems, and standard sync on
supported filesystems.

This is all like compound interest. They have narrowed their customer base and
made that rate a little lower. In the long term it could just turn out to be a
terrible decision - my expectation.

------
Bizarro
_Finally, it never ceases to amaze me that Linux has yet to take hold on the
desktop market. Given the disaster that has been Windows over the last few
years_

No, not even close to being a given. In fact, it's just not true and he loses
a bunch of credibility by saying that.

------
wheresvic1
This is a very interesting article and to be fair while I agree with the
author's conclusions that it would be great to have a standard Linux distro to
refer to, I thought we had already hit that point with Ubuntu.

Nowadays, I have seen quite a few download software pages that simply list
Ubuntu rather than Linux.

Anyways, for those complaining about how difficult it is to get anything to
work with linux those days were 10 years ago, I invite you to spin up a Ubuntu
VM and give it a test drive :)

(Happy linux user since 13 years)

~~~
AnIdiotOnTheNet
Ubuntu almost succeeded in that respect, but at some point Canonical seemed to
have gone insane with NIH duplication and then failed attempts at monitization
that seem to have totally killed their momentum.

------
all_blue_chucks
Huh. That was the only reason I used it. What has the most space now, Amazon
Drive?

~~~
zeta0134
I switched to Syncthing a while back and haven't looked back. It's self-
hosted, so there are no storage limits, and if you care to put in the work
(setup is a tad more complex), it's also pretty easy to hook it up to a cloud
server, which nets you an off-site backup.

Syncthing doesn't quite have the "Just Works" factor that Dropbox's offering
has, but I don't need that; the ability to synchronize several terrabytes of
my personal archives (I have a lot of data) was more than worth the effort.

[https://syncthing.net/](https://syncthing.net/)

~~~
freedomben
I wouldn't recommend having syncthing be your _only_ backup, at least for
important files (like photos/videos of your kids). It was a couple years ago,
but a syncthing bug was eating large files.

Take this anecdotal report with a dash of salt. It didn't happen to me.
Happened to a friend of mine. That said, I wouldn't make Google Drive or
Dropbox your only backup either.

~~~
m_eiman
More generally: sync is not backup. Backups need to have versioning (like Time
Machine) or manual syncing (like rsync to external/remote drive).

------
gargravarr
What I'm having trouble understanding about the whole thing, and the author
really misses the point by talking about Snap and Flatpak, is that the
technical reason Dropbox are only supporting ext4 is apparently the use of
extended attributes.

Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but a filesystem is supposed to abstract these
concepts. All current major Linux filesystems (ext2+, btrfs, XFS etc.) support
extended attributes. The implementation is irrelevant. It should be exposed to
the application in exactly the same way because that's what the filesystem is
/for/. Dropbox shouldn't need to worry about this whole thing because they
should just be able to call the system API to deal with it.

Or have I fundamentally misunderstood the issue?

------
amelius
They should just publish the API and let the Linux dev-crowd come up with
suitable solutions.

~~~
daniel_iversen
We have an API and you can indeed create your own client (as some have done
with ExpanDrive etc.)... Also there are some good open source
copy/clone/backup solutions that work well with Dropbox, like rclone.org

------
DannyB2
I want to address a point that many here have replied to:

> Given the disaster that has been Windows over the last few years

Just because Windows has become stable and somewhat secure doesn't mean it
hasn't been a disaster.

Windows 8 upset everything with a pointless new interface requiring user
retraining on even the most basic things like how to log on or log off. How to
print. Etc. There are now dual built in apps (preferences) for multiple
things, in both the new UI, and the conventional UI.

Microsoft even tried to force the new interface onto server desktops.

Developers had to write apps a new way. And then there was the store for the
new apps. The legacy apps were to become just that -- legacy.

Then Microsoft went back to having a start menu and a desktop again. Later,
even as the primary interface -- but keeping some of the visual appearance of
the "new" interface.

And the Windows store. And Windows S.

And the market confusion of Windows RT for ARM processors that cannot run
legacy applications. But anyone could have (and I did) foresee that consumers
would not understand this. Why won't my legacy x86 app run on Windows RT? The
entire value proposition of Windows is that it runs legacy apps -- take that
away and Windows has little value. Without the apps, it has less software than
Linux or Mac. Developers were not going to port their apps to ARM for free. So
if you bought Windows RT, be prepared to re-buy your apps. Consumers returned
them in droves. For better or worse, Windows is deeply tied to Intel
architecture.

Much of this upset was changes just to prop up the failing (and now definitely
failed) Windows 7, then Windows 8 phone. (Both of which caused the previous
efforts of developers to be obsolete and abandoned.)

And then redesigning the desktop UI yet again, for no good reason.

I think one could be fair in calling this a disaster. Just sayin'

------
nottorp
Say, what are the non self hosted alternatives to Dropbox that are still
alive? Same ease of use please, i.e. no Backblaze. I don't mind if it costs a
bit.

~~~
wilsonnb3
Owncloud get mentioned from time to time, I've heard it's pretty good.

~~~
nottorp
Isn't it self hosted?

~~~
wilsonnb3
You're correct - I read your original comment as "What self hosted
alternatives exist?". My bad.

------
jwilk
Context:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17732912](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17732912)

------
canhascodez
So how do we make POSIX II happen?

------
gcb0
it says two things:

\- using their own APIs is so painful that any internal client has a high cost

\- they are betting more on walled garden platforms, which means they will
pivot to ad-based soon.

------
modzu
would linus torvolds please stand up? he uses fedora; could fedora be The One?
(in the article, author argues for a "standard desktop distribution" to rule
them all)

------
cwyers
> I am certainly not saying that Linux needs fewer choices. However, I've said
> this before, and I think it could use repeating. There needs to be a
> standard, a sort of "universal Linux" that companies (such as Microsoft or
> Adobe) can support. This is very complicated. Which distribution would serve
> as the "universal"? Or should a brand new distribution be created? Which
> desktop? Which init system? Which filesystem? Those questions continue to
> haunt Linux and prevent it from gaining widespread acceptance on the
> desktop.

[obligatory xkcd link here]

~~~
zeta0134
I knew which XKCD you were referring to without you even needing to link it,
but if you _must_ obligatorily link xkcd comics, do remember to actually post
the link.

[https://xkcd.com/927/](https://xkcd.com/927/)

As for Linux standards, at least in the datacenter I work in, by FAR the two
most popular distributions are Ubuntu and RedHat. For home users RedHat would
translate to Fedora (which is roughly RedHat's upstream), and for businesses
not wanting to deal with RedHat licensing, CentOS.

Everything else seems to be fringe, at least as far as servers go. If
companies all agreed to target Fedora / Ubuntu, and the Gnome Desktop as our
sort of casual starting point? That would work. It would have lots of room for
improvement (Gnome's UI is... strongly opinionated), but I still think it
might work.

~~~
alanfranzoni
I thought about this one:

[https://xkcd.com/456/](https://xkcd.com/456/)

------
RickJWagner
Deeply disappointing. My primary machines are Linux and this is a step
backward.

I really think Linux will finally win the desktop (someday. Clearly not
today.)

~~~
jaredklewis
> I really think Linux will finally win the desktop (someday. Clearly not
> today.)

Not to get too off topic, but why do you think this? (Genuine question, no
snark). I love linux, but from my perspective, Linux desktop seems only
marginally more mainstream than 5 years ago.

ChromeOS is doing ok I guess, but if that is how linux wins the desktop, it’s
a very pyrrhic victory. ChromeOS is Linux, but not any of the parts I like
about it.

~~~
j88439h84
The Dell XPS laptop comes with ubuntu and is the best laptop I've ever had.

~~~
freedomben
Agreed, the Dell is amazing. First laptop that I thought legitimately beat the
look, feel, and build quality of a Macbook. Pricey tho.

~~~
meritt
Pricey? Maybe in comparison to a budget laptop but as you're comparing it to a
Macbook, it's not even close to the price of a similar configuration there. My
local Costco has Dell XPS 13s and Lenovo X1s for ~$1400.

~~~
freedomben
Pricey compared to an equivalent Lenovo, for example. But yes, compared to a
Macbook it's quite cheap.

The base models don't have a lot in the way of RAM, CPU, and disk space.
Bumping those specs up to acceptable levels adds quite a bit to the cost,
sometimes $1,000 or more.

------
misterbowfinger
> Given the disaster that has been Windows over the last few years, and that
> Apple hardware is often out of the price range of the average user, Linux
> should be primed to take over the market.

I feel similarly. I'm a big Mac fan, but I'm confused why Linux isn't the
obvious alternative. I'm guessing the issues are the following:

1) PCs/Laptops to consumers ship with Windows installed by default, likely a
distribution partnership w/ Microsoft

2) Popular games run best on Windows

Problem (1) is difficult because of Microsoft's deep pockets. But it feels
like it's possible to attack problem (2).

The gaming industry has huge sway on the market. For example, many serious
gamers build their own rigs. If gaming companies introduce an open standard
that Windows OS's need to abide by to build games, then.... maybe Linux can
benefit as well?

I suspect this hugely benefits gaming companies too, because they would be
able to develop on open source technology and not have to test their builds on
proprietary technology. Honestly, that workflow sounds miserable AND
expensive.

~~~
cco
I think you maybe don't use Linux or Windows 10? Windows 10 is still far and
away more friendly and presents a much better user experience than Linux.

Linux will be the "obvious alternative" when the software actually works with
off the shelf consumer hardware, compiling your own drivers based off of
something you've downloaded from github is a non-starter, and getting things
like waking from standby to work isn't a series of frustrating googles.

If you're into computers, not using them as tools just into them in general
Linux is fine. But Linux is not ready for someone who is uninterested in how
computers work.

~~~
interfixus
Clearly a matter of perspective. Happily living in Xfce-land on my various
Arch-boxes, my rare excursions into the world of Windows are always occasions
for disbelief: 'Do people actually _live_ with this, day in and day out?'. The
prescribed choices, the licensing popups, the installation and upgrade
rigmarole, the opaque policy management, the dependency hell, the anti-virus
idiocy, and the Mickey Mouse conventions of the file system. Please, take me
home to sanity. But as I said - perspective. I must assume it all somehow
makes a kind of sense if you're really into it, and that pacman -Syu could
equally freak you out if you came visiting to my side. Windows users rarely
do, though.

~~~
free652
Um the dependency hell is not something I have seen in Windows, but quiet
often in Linux.

For my desktops I just want for the system to work and not try to figure out
why the new kernel broke my video drivers again.

~~~
flukus
If you stick to the distro package manager you should never see dependency
hell on linux, in 15+ years of using it I've seen it three times. Once was
when I was being too clever for my own good with the package manager, once was
from using third part package managers (ruby gems) and once is from co-workers
essentially creating their own distro + package manager on top of red hat ( a
story in it's own right). The root cause of each of those was ignoring or
screwing with the package manager. And the last two started out as
deficiencies (non-existence) in windows package management.

On windows I've come across it much more. Installing different versions of
Visual Studio, installing some random program that doesn't package it's
binaries, various installers including sub-installers, trying to run a program
that requires the .net framework and having to install that first.

I spent most of this morning dealing with a windows app that was missing a dll
and had to google my way through with lot's of trial and error to find the
missing package.

I've also had docker for windows screw up my cygwin install, but I guess
that's a point in each column.

~~~
AnIdiotOnTheNet
> If you stick to the distro package manager you should never see dependency
> hell on linux

You'll also probably never see up to date applications or anything not present
in the repo.

