
Omni: The "Oculus Rift" of 3D Treadmills - mikeknoop
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1944625487/omni-move-naturally-in-your-favorite-game/
======
mikeknoop
The "aha" moment for me, as an outsider to this industry, is using a special
shoe to reduce friction and increase lateral stability versus only focusing on
developing a 3D treadmill itself.

~~~
duked
I completely agree, I was very excited until I saw the special shoes
requirements. While I can see how it works, I don't really understand why they
couldn't use a regular treadmill belt with some piezoelectric sensor to detect
lateral movements.

~~~
uptown
Because something capable of achieving that currently looks like this:

[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-8eVcN2z3k](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-8eVcN2z3k)

[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=msci440q18s](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=msci440q18s)

Think about it. How do you accomodate movement along multiple axis
simultaneously using treadmill technology in a compact, affordable, game-room-
sized package?

~~~
reledi
There's also this one:
[http://youtu.be/nQR49JGySTM](http://youtu.be/nQR49JGySTM)

~~~
uptown
That certainly looks expensive.

~~~
namlem
It was. It cost well over half a million dollars, iirc.

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rickdale
On the omni website it says, "Order on Kickstarter", but isn't kickstarter
trying to remind people that it isn't necessarily a store? And so if you order
one on kickstarter is it a guarantee that you will get one or is there a
chance that it won't happen?

~~~
bcoates
Another red flag is that the "Risks and Challenges" Kickstarter mandated
doesn't actually disclose any risks or challenges, just generic statement that
could apply to literally any manufactured product and a bunch of puffery about
how great they are.

~~~
joosters
Too true...

I've yet to see a decent and honest 'risks and challenges' section for a
project, they all end up talking about how great everything is.

They are far removed from the 'risks' section of a financial prospectus (which
still get ignored!) and yet kickstarter backers have fewer rights and
safeguards than a real financial investor.

~~~
tinco
They also invest much less. I'm not sure why you would need a safeguard for
investing $429. Clearly you can miss the money since the starter clearly
states you won't get the project until its done, and that's a minimum of 6
months away.

If the project never gets done and no one receives their reward, what's the
harm done?

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nknighthb
This is a great solution to the problem, and I'm really excited about it.

But there's one very important catch: The "special shoes" are _not_ an option
for people with unusual orthotics requirements (e.g. me), because they're not
going to be able to make shoes suitable for everybody.

They have to create soles that can be strapped on to our existing shoes.

~~~
ics
Judging by their prototypes (and assuming it does catch on) that should be
pretty easy for them or someone else to offer. They're already letting people
build the support band themselves based on drawings, I don't see why they
couldn't (or someone else) release drawings and a bill of materials for the
soles, esp. if some of it could be printed.

~~~
BHSPitMonkey
A better alternative to printing would probably be to hand-cut (or CNC) the
shape of the sole out of a thin sheet of whatever plastic is appropriate.

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eugenesia
It seems that the grooves pointing towards the centre of the platform make for
an unnatural walking gait. At the start of a step, the foot will move inwards
towards the line of travel. As the foot crosses the torso, it will move
outwards again.

Whereas in a natural gait, each foot moves parallel to the line of travel.

See 2:10 of the video for how the shoes fit into the grooves using plunger
pins, and how they move on the platform.

~~~
kristiandupont
I thought about that too. I can imagine a whole new category of back and knee
problems in the teens who grow up with this or similar devices.

~~~
tinco
Note that at no point in the movement the torso moves up or down, so the
forces on the joints/back are much lighter. So wouldn't that make the movement
a light unnatural movement like swimming is? Do people get many knee injuries
from swimming? (I had a knee injury that flared up when swimming, but I don't
think it caused it)

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TillE
I'm _really_ looking forward to the next generation of consumer gaming VR once
all the kinks have been worked out.

With any luck, the problems and shortcomings of the Oculus Rift and the Omni
will be solved within a couple years, and we'll be able to buy a fully usable
VR rig for something like $1500 (glasses, treadmill, handheld controller). And
we'll have games designed specifically for it.

~~~
d23
Hmm, unless I'm missing something it looks like the full cost will be around
$900 ($300 for Oculus Rift and $600 for Omni). I definitely agree things will
get better naturally after a few years, but if this thing works solidly I will
probably bite the bullet and drop the money. I need a damn way to exercise,
and this would be FUN.

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angersock
This is a nifty product, and a surprisingly elegant and low-tech solution to
the problem of how to allow free movement while in VR.

I had beers a week or two ago with the project founder (really friendly guy!)
and he's looking for software developers to help create an awesome SDK. Get in
touch with him if you're interested--it's a really cool project!

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X4
Supplementary: The 3D Printed Occulus Rift killer.

[http://www.durovis.com/index.html](http://www.durovis.com/index.html)

~~~
georgemcbay
Good luck with that. What makes the Occulus Rift important is how fast it
translates real world movement to signals software can process to give a true
VR feel. The accelerometers and magnetometers in phones are decent for their
intended purpose, but their intended purpose is not VR. This is no Rift
killer.

~~~
X4
OK, I just busted your theory. Sorry. :) It has 16G

The LSM330 has an user-selectable full scale acceleration range of ±2 g/±4
g/±6 g/±8 g/±16 g and angular rate range of ±250/±500/±2000 d.

Samsung Galaxy S4 accelerometers/gyro Datasheet:
[http://www.st.com/web/en/catalog/sense_power/FM89/SC1448/PF2...](http://www.st.com/web/en/catalog/sense_power/FM89/SC1448/PF253882)

Here's a FULL Teardown of the insides of the Samsung Galaxy S4.
[http://www.chipworks.com/blog/recentteardowns/2013/04/25/ins...](http://www.chipworks.com/blog/recentteardowns/2013/04/25/inside-
the-samsung-galaxy-s4/)

~~~
georgemcbay
Even if there were a single phone that outperformed the Rift in real world
responsiveness (and there isn't), that wouldn't really change anything because
the whole value proposition of a generic smartphone printed solution is you
use it with whatever phone you already have. If you have some phone other than
that super phone, as the majority of smartphone users would, you then have to
buy some specific $650 phone for the thing to give you comparable performance
to the Rift, and you just spent more than double what a Rift costs.

~~~
X4
Who said that your ordinary iPhone4s or iPhone5 hasn't comparable, equal or
better sensors? Am not here to speculate and I know it's tedious to prove
everything, but I welcome it in your next post :)

Everyone benefits, if one bright mind comes up with a solution or a fact that
others have to live with.

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mdigi
I would love to hear a medical professional opinion on contusion probability
with extensive use of this thing.

Also they didn't show if it's comfortable to run backwards - a critical move
in any first person game.

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sean-duffy
While running backwards is a popular tactic in FPS games, it's one that is
obviously completely unrealistic. I think given that this is a virtual reality
device, it's more likely to be used for more realistic games that wouldn't
require backwards running.

~~~
mdigi
If by realistic games You mean "Jogging In The Park Simulator 2013" then i
guess it's perfect. This could be a nice device to try out on some gaming expo
but i think most gamers will be disappointed with the lack of actions they can
perform in it.

~~~
spazmaster
Yeah, strafing and walking backwards at least you can do. How would you crouch
and go prone for example? And I wonder how good you would be able to aim with
Omni, that's gonna be a deciding factor.

~~~
LordIllidan
They mention Kinect integration - that should be able to detect crouching
movements.

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freehunter
But would the belt allow you to crouch? It's designed to keep you from
falling, so I assume it's there pretty tight.

~~~
LordIllidan
Maybe a ducking motion?

This isn't intended to be the Holodeck - but it's a step in the right
direction.

For that matter, how would you represent a jump?

That said, I'd use the hell out of it for a game like Skyrim, or other open
world environments. And it can be so much more than that, .e.g. ocean/space
environments for instance.

The gameplay is secondary - there are a lot of motions that can't be expressed
well using this device (although with the kinect, you can unlock a lot of arm
motions - good for sword play, I'd wager) - but it's superb for walking in
fantasy environments.

~~~
nickik
> For that matter, how would you represent a jump?

You just jump, I think there are videos showing that. I cant jump like the
hero in the game but you can do a little hop.

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nbashaw
How is this 3d? You can only go in two dimensions. It doesn't generate
obstacles or even hills...

Don't get me wrong, it looks cool. I just don't understand why people are
using the term 3D.

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zw123456
I think there may also be a market for it in health clubs as well, they are
constantly looking for new gizmos to entice new members in. Also, I see people
at the gym try to do lateral movement on the treadmill by going sideways on it
so I think people are looking for more than the boring 1D experience of a
simple treadmill.

~~~
mtgx
I could see how in the future instead of "going to gym", we simply "play
games" to exercise, and it's a lot more fun to do it, too!

~~~
frobozz
Isn't that how most people have exercised for years?

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mtgx
_"...to exercise"_

Yes, people have played games instead of going to the gym, but I wouldn't call
that "exercising". I guess you could put Wii/Kinect in this category, but even
those are pretty _static_ compared to this. You're actually running on this.

~~~
jpd
I think he may be thinking of more traditional forms of games. Soccer,
Lacrosse, etc.

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oftenwrong
With regard to the Omni as a way to exercise, I wonder how it stacks up to
actual running/walking since the user does not actually have to propel his or
her own weight.

~~~
deletes
It must be somewhere in between. But definitely closer to running than
walking. When running most of you effort is directed against the gravity, that
is why the treadmills work.

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ollysb
I'm dying to see what effect something like this will have on the obesity
crisis. We could end up with a super fit generation of game players.

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JD557
I wonder how running/jumping feels, since there are a lot of games where your
character running/jumping skills are far better yours in real life.

From the "Oculus Rift" demos I've seen, it seems people already feel weird by
the character height, so I guess it might feel a little awkward to run twice
as fast as expected.

Nevertheless, it sure beats being sitted.

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mililani
Ugh. This will eventually destroy my knees or hips someday. It's bad enough
that I go running an hour every other day. I just can't imagine doing that for
6 to 8 hours. Although, I think this will be awesome for out of shape people
who love games. Might be the thing we need to goad these people into shape!

~~~
threeseed
Actually no.

Most of the problems associated with running come from the unforgiving impact
of your foot on the ground (often a hard surface). Devices like this and other
treadmills are much better if you have joint problems.

~~~
gilgoomesh
I could definitely envisage some heavily inflamed tendons and soft-tissue from
the weird crouch/walking motion though.

~~~
Everlag
If this becomes an issue of picking your evil, I'd prefer the devil that
allows me to play extremely immersive games for hours while maintaining a high
quality fitness level.

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jacques_chester
I see that X, the Y of Z is still going strong as an elevator pitch.

What's wrong with "Omni: a 3D Treadmill"?

~~~
clavalle
Because people would ask; "Why do I need a 3d treadmill? I am perfectly happy
running in a 2d line." It is not immediately obvious what it is for.

I think it would have make a lot more sense to say "Omni 3d Treadmill: The
perfect complement for the Oculus Rift."

~~~
jacques_chester
Agreed. I guess I'm just one of those curmudgeons who finds piggybacking on
other brands distasteful.

But life isn't a tastefulness contest. I suck at it. (And I'd suck if it was).

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daemonk
Omni + Oculus + kinect + horror game = shit a brick. I for one can't wait.

~~~
James_Duval
The problem for me is that I will probably have a dog by the time all these
come out.

If the dog were to brush across the back of my leg while I played some
terrifying HL2 mod or other it would be kicked clean across the room.

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tseabrooks
Watch the first couple of videos.. It's pretty clever and cool. Doesn't look
like it'll be fat friendly. All that aside, let's pretend like we're
responsible adults for a second. The video, especially the end of the first,
sort've makes me think this might be the "line". People have talked about
violence in video games, and realism, and for the most part I don't think
there is any real issue today, it's all malarkey. Something like this,
however, changes the game. It's suddenly a very different experience when you
have the VR goggles on and the VR running board and you gun down civilians in
CoD, or kill XYZ in random FPS.

tl;dr. Does the omni + oculus rift increase realism enough that violent games
require extra caution?

~~~
noonespecial
There's some dejavu for you. I remember this exact same discussion when
"Wolfenstein 3d" hit the scene. That 3d killing of Nazis was sure to be "the
line".

The secret jumped out at me when I read that drone pilots were getting real,
bona-fide combat PTSD just from pushing the button while looking at those
grainy monochrome heat images. People (almost all of them) know the difference
between real and imaginary. "The Line" is in us, not on the screen.

~~~
ippisl
One of the documented side effects of virtual reality is a mental disease
called derealization , which makes people feel like real life isn't real, and
causes a lot of anxiety.

Also there's the fact that military training conditions people to kill
automatically without thinking and the fact that virtual reality has a proven
ability to decondition people with PTSD or fear of spiders(with real results
in real life), which is basically the same psychological process of military
conditioning.

All this raises interesting questions about "the line" between real and
virtual , that at least be tested before wide scale deployment of VR.

~~~
pkroll
Where is that documented? 'cause that's a pretty big claim.

~~~
ippisl
Derelealization:

[http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20712501](http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20712501)

Efficacy of VR exposure therapy in anxiety disorders , in cluding PTSD:

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virtual_reality_therapy#Efficac...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virtual_reality_therapy#Efficacy)

Exposure therapy probably works via habituation or conditioning.

[http://www.nelsonbinggeli.net/NB/CBT-
Exposure.html](http://www.nelsonbinggeli.net/NB/CBT-Exposure.html)

The knowledge on how military training works is found on dave grossmans's book
: "on killing".

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lucian1900
Is it just me that can't see the videos? On Chrome with Ghostery disabled, I
can play it and hear the sound, but the image remains a black screen.

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nitkartindia
If you integrate it with Google Streetmaps, I think I will be able to go
jogging in a different street every day for the rest of my life. Woah!

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kybernetikos
Looks fun, but seems a bit gimmicky to me. Why would you use something that is
extra physical effort to use and makes you worse at gaming? I presume people
will only really play games against other people using these, which means that
the community will be very small.

On the other hand, I could imagine these or something like these making the
gym more fun as a fitness thing rather than a gaming thing.

~~~
DanBC
> Why would you use something that is extra physical effort to use and makes
> you worse at gaming?

Fun.

Did you miss the Dance Dance Revolution mats, the Guitar Hero guitars, the
light gun games, DK Bongos, etc etc?

~~~
kybernetikos
Most of those were for playing games that you couldn't reasonably play with
more normal controllers, or at the very least you would be worse at with more
normal controllers. There may well be games like that for this device too, but
they aren't FPSs which is all anyone ever seems to talk about when describing
it.

I think something less gamey and more second-lifey might have potential, but I
don't think these will make much headway with hardcore FPS gamers.

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imchillyb
Great device! I can't wait to try one out.

