
Apple faces class action lawsuit over failing MacBook butterfly keyboards - craigc
https://9to5mac.com/2018/05/12/apple-keyboard-lawsuit/
======
jetsnoc
I manage software development teams. I spend my days in video meetings,
writing emails, reviewing code (sometimes writing it on side projects to keep
current) and writing documents. I type 120 WPM and live and die by my
keyboard. Most of the time I am using an external keyboard but when I travel
or work flexibly away from my house, it's all on the butterfly keyboard. After
a year, several keys were useless, - enter ;, j and e. They would stick and
repeat the character too much, or not recognize a hit at all. Like a good
Apple fan boy I always purchase Apple care so I was able to send it in for
repair but being without a machine for three days was a non-starter. So, I
ordered a Lenovo T480S, installed Linux and prepared an environment for when
my MBP 2016 touchbar unit went back to Apple. My MBP has been back from Apple
for two months now and I have yet to boot it.... The keyboard on this Lenovo
is ridiculously great-- it's amazing to be able to work again :) And, its not
just me we've had 4 MBP Touchbar retinas have keys fail around the 9mos to 1yr
mark. One 3 of them, Apple gave us grief as if it was standard "wear and
tear." Uh, ya, these $4K aluminum rigs are going to be around dust, and humans
have hair ... and... well its on you to make a more resilient key switch
Apple... As for me, sticking with Lenovo box from here on out.

~~~
sedachv
> The keyboard on this Lenovo [T480S] is ridiculously great-- it's amazing to
> be able to work again :)

It is really incredible how low Apple has managed to drive people's
expectations wrt keyboards. I feel like Thinkpad keyboards have gone steadily
downhill since the ~2005 T4x series (I still use a T43 on a regular basis, and
do side-to-side comparisons between it and newer machines). Macbook keyboards
by comparison are nearly unusable, unergonomic garbage: key caps not shaped,
linear action with very harsh bottoming, comically oversize trackpad that you
always manage to accidentally press with your palm while typing, sharp edge
case that pokes into your wrists. Typing on a Macbook is slow and results in
pain halfway through the day. Even the bottom of the barrel Acer Aspire One
with the flat key caps (again, a machine I actually own and regularly use and
can make comparisons against) provides a better typing experience.

~~~
y0y
The Apple touchpad is by far the best trackpad I've ever used on any laptop.
By such a wide margin it's ridiculous. I never accidentally press it with my
palm or have any other issues with it.

I agree fully that the keyboards are hot garbage, though. I can type well on
them, they're just painful over time due to the harshness you mention.

~~~
sedachv
> I never accidentally press it with my palm or have any other issues with it.

There seem to be two kinds of typists: ones that rest their palms, and ones
that hover their palms. If you hover, you will never encounter these issues. I
rest my palms to the degree that any touchpad that is not recessed gets
unintentional input. I also believe, based on personal experience, that the
ergonomics of a pointing device are in general inversely proportional to the
amount of hand/arm movement, so larger touchpads are going to be less
ergonomic than smaller ones (a corollary is that touchpad gestures will give
you RSI). Having three buttons for a pointing device is essential. Macbooks
fail on all counts on these criteria. The closest to ideal touchpads that I
have encountered are on the T4x/T6x series Thinkpads - 2" large and deeply
recessed. Unfortunately they only have two buttons.

~~~
y0y
I rest my palms. No issues.

Smaller touchpads have always been more uncomfortable and harder to use for
me.

------
satysin
At the start of the year I bought a full spec 15" MBP. Two weeks in the B key
stopped working so I took it to the Apple Store and they literally gave me a
brand new one. Why did the B key stop working? Apparently it was a crumb. So I
had a total system replacement of a £3000 laptop because of a crumb. Insane.
Yes I know the broken one will be repaired and re-sold as a refurb but still
that is just crazy.

I ended up returning the MBP for a refund anyway as I really didn't enjoy the
new butterfly keyboard. I found it quite painful to type on for more than
about 20 minutes.

I strongly feel the latest generation MBP is a step backwards in what a
"professional" wants and needs from such a machine. Sure make the consumer
MacBook model as thin as possible but don't butcher the Pro model to save
0.2mm by introducing a god awful keyboard and removing a bunch of crucial
ports so we have to rely on bloody dongles!

Ninja Edit: Forgot to mention how much I hated the TouchBar. What sucks is the
actual _idea_ of the touchbar is pretty nice but replacing the function keys
with it on a Pro machine is idiotic. They could have easily added the touchbar
while keeping the function keys but decided not to probably to be
minimal/simple.

~~~
eric_h
> I found it quite painful to type on for more than about 20 minutes

I keep hearing this. I've been using the new keyboard for > 1 yr and I
literally have no complaints. I have adjusted my typing style to a bit lighter
of a touch as the keys don't travel as far, but I've not experienced any
discomfort.

~~~
anonymousab
I guess it just goes to show how different everyone types from each other and
how well of a compromise the previous keyboard turned out to be, even if
unintentionally.

~~~
eric_h
I suppose. On the other hand if you type on every keyboard like it's an IBM
Model M, any keyboard that isn't a high travel mechanical keyboard is going to
be uncomfortable. I adjusted my typing style to fit the new MacBook keyboard,
and I have no complaints.

~~~
syshum
The second I need change to accommodate my hardware, is the second that
hardware is replaced....

Of course I am typing this is on an mechanical keyboard with Cherry Switches,
which is the only way to type

~~~
jodrellblank
The DataHand has magnetically held keys. If you press them too gently, they
don't move at all, so there's no chance of pushing them a bit but them not
registering.

When you push hard enough to move them, they pass through an optical sensor
and then can move a lot further, so there's effectively no equivalent to keys
bottoming out, or the feeling of jamming your finger into a hard surface.

It's such a good design to invert both those problems and make them non-
problems, I'm a bit sad I haven't seen it anywhere else on a more common style
of keyboard.

------
inamberclad
I've got no idea why the new macbook is the way it is. Apple really missed a
sweet opportunity to move the mac and iphone over to usb-c at the same time.
They could have easily added two usb-c ports while keeping a usb-a port and
the SD card reader. At the same time, they could have moved the iphone to
usb-c and converge a lot of their designs into something clean and easy. I'm
typing this on an xps-13 while charging both my phone and laptop over usb-c
with the same charger and cable.

Instead, apple now has multiple incompatible cables and devices. Not only has
the rest of the industry caught up to them, apple has regressed in the
meantime.

~~~
jwr
There are multiple points of view. As for me, I'm fine with Lightning:
mechanically it's the best connector I've ever seen. But moving "everything"
to USB-C means that exactly ZERO of my USB devices are pluggable into the new
laptops.

Also, please don't start with the "but somebody needs to move the world
forward" narrative. Move the world all you want, but don't hold me hostage.
And "moving the world forward" does not require dropping existing USB
connectors.

I'm also amused by the "oh, in a year or so every device will have switched to
USB-C" narrative. Guess what, it's quite likely that my JTAG programmers,
logic analyzers, USB microscopes, USB ports on oscilloscopes, 3dconnexion
spacemouse, label printer, sheet-fed scanner, barcode scanners, and at least
20 kinds of development boards will NOT switch to USB-C anytime soon, and most
of them quite likely never will (ever tried routing a USB-C connector on a
2-layer board?). Oh, and I wrote that list just by looking around me, I
probably have even more devices.

~~~
tolien
> As for me, I'm fine with Lightning

I'd have expected Lightning to remain but the other end of the cable should've
either switched to USB-C or some sort of adapter been included in the box.

As things stand you could walk into an Apple Store, spend the better part of
_four thousand_ pounds on a MBP and an iPhone X, and get home to find out that
you can't plug one into the other without Apple wanting to take another £35
for a USB-C to Lightning cable (obviously other cables are available but
that's beside the point).

That's absolute madness and destroys the idea that Apple hardware exists
within any sort of ecosystem.

~~~
Terretta
> *I’d have expected Lightning to remain but the other end of the cable
> should've either switched to USB-C...”

Use the iPad Pro 29W USB-C charger (or Anker’s USB-C chargers, etc.) and
Apple’s USB-C to Lightning “Power Delivery” (USB-C PD) cable, you can ultra
fast charge iPhone X, iPads, etc., and yes, you can charge it from current
Macs or other brand laptops with USB-C.

~~~
tolien
My point, I suppose, was that one of those cables should be in the box.

The charger's neither here nor there for the sake of my argument: as things
stand, you can plug your phone into the charger and the connection between the
two can be USB-A, USB-C or Jony Ive's finger for all it matters.

~~~
alonmower
This was the most frustrating thing for me. I have a new touchbar mac and
iphone x and when i realized i needed a usb-c to lighting cable and went to
the apple store in downtown sf they didn't have any in the store. this was ~6
months after the iphone came out so it wasn't even an initial rush related
issue. crazy.

------
sophistication
I love how Apple is finally shooting itself in the foot by the atrocious
repairability of their devices. The keyboard in the A1706/7/8 MBP is
_extremely_ time-consuming to replace because you need to get your dremel tool
out and undo an umpteen of tiny bolts and then replace them with tiny screws
as this video demonstrates:
[https://youtu.be/YMueATtTcQg?t=879](https://youtu.be/YMueATtTcQg?t=879)

In previous models, you could at least simply rip the keyboard out like this
(which was of course an imposition as well):
[https://youtu.be/2PyhbiwUkE0?t=1229](https://youtu.be/2PyhbiwUkE0?t=1229)

Imagine if the keyboard was simply screwed on in the first place. The keyboard
plate would maybe need to be 1 mm thicker, making the entire device thicker by
as much, but an AASP worker could simply replace the thing in a 5 minute job
(instead of 2 hours, i.e. never).

PS: Could someone vouch me. HN thinks I'm a bot.

------
yborg
Being design-forward is fine, but Apple fell completely into the trap of
"function follows form". The in retrospect aptly-shaped "trashcan" Mac Pro was
probably the ultimate expression of this. But at this point they're not a
computer company, so the products need to be viewed in this light. They've
decided to be a luxury brand, in which form is in fact more important than
function, and the correctness of this decision is shown by their financials.
But when you buy a Macbook Pro, you have to be aware that you're essentially
buying a Louis Vuitton, or - dare I say it? - Burberry laptop. It's meant to
be seen, not used.

~~~
glogla
Macbook Pros still have best screens, best touchpads and unix operating system
that just works and is perfectly compatible with the hardware.

The only thing that comes close is XPS oine from Dell. Thinkpads with linux
just can't compare (bad screens, software trouble with "reasonable
resolution", no MS office, etc). Anything with Windows can't compare, since
who would want to use spying os with ads in start menu?

I would love anything as good as MBP but there just isn't anything.

~~~
NicoJuicy
None of that matters if you can't type

~~~
ordinaryradical
This is my precise dilemma. I want all of what glogla champions, but I have
tried the new keyboards for an hour or so in the stores and they are like
typing on ice.

There are essentially two input devices in a modern computer: Apple has nailed
the trackpad, but they've flubbed the keyboard.

------
dmix
Anyone know what this means for non-US residents? We're in Canada and my
partners 12" Macbook keyboard has failed 3 times, requiring the complete
replacement of her Macbook once and the whole top-case twice. Which caused
plenty of downtime for repairs, usually weeks at a time. Now she's
experiencing small problems for the 4th time.

Maybe if it succeeds someone can create a class-action in Canadian courts...

~~~
colejohnson66
Can you even use court cases from a different country as precedent?

~~~
dmix
My spouse who's a Canadian lawyer said a number of Canadian laws have
referenced American (and historically more importantly British) law as
examples during proceedings but they can't be cited directly as precedent
case-law.

It's just a helpful data point when establishing new laws and assisting judges
to form their legal opinions in cases without existing examples within
Canadian law... and I'd assume also inspire Canadian lawyers to form their own
class actions when they've already been tested in American courts.

I was just curious if foreign parties could play any role in American ones,
which I doubt is the case.

------
hinkley
Apple is in a bad spot. The new MacBook Pro isn’t enough better than the old
one, and is demonstrably worse in several ways.

I’ve bought very “tock” generation of MBP for a dozen years but I’m skipping
this one. I just don’t need the extra horsepower or the extra headaches.

~~~
mbell
> Apple is in a bad spot.

They have beat sales estimates on the MBP and still show growth despite a
contracting market. A few people raging on hacker news is not representative
of the market, nor even software developers as a whole.

~~~
gondo
loosing influencers (IT professionals are influencers for their family and
friends) will hurt apple in the long run.

~~~
mratzloff
A few people raging on Hacker News is not representative of all influencers,
either.

As a counterpoint, my current MBP (more than a year old) is half the weight of
my old one, and while the keyboard is worse, it's not significant enough for
me to jettison the entire ecosystem, which is great. The Touch Bar is fine for
me, though I've configured it to act like my old machine.

Summary:

+2 points weight

+1 point improved display and resolution

-1 point keyboard

+0 points Touch Bar

~~~
lowbloodsugar
>it's not significant enough for me to jettison the entire ecosystem

But significant enough that I bought a five-year-old used MBP rather than buy
a new one. I don't care about weight: I miss the 17". And improved resolution?
It's the same in 2017 as it was in 2013.

2017 MBP compared to used 2013 MBP

CPU +16%

GPU + 200%

RAM + 0%

Display + 0%

Weight 4.46lb vs 4.02lbs

Keyboard failure rate: +100%

Cost difference $2,000.

So basically unless you need graphics, get a used one.

~~~
samat
Display is better, 25% maybe.

------
ksec
I wish there is something as World Wide Class Action.

The biggest problem isn't with the design issues here. Apple is not perfect,
every new design will come with its own set of problem and trade offs.
Normally most of these are Net positive gain. This time around I am pretty
sure the Keyboard is mostly a step backwards, because reliability is the most
important thing for a Keyboard.

And what is worst is that people has been complaining about it since 2015, and
in 2016, then 2017, two version later they still haven't done a thing, apart
from making the keyboard louder to make you think you pressed the button.

There is still a lot to love for the iPhone. ( Even that is going downhill,
but still loveable ) But Mac has been on the sideline with no attention and
care.

I would beg Tim Cook please do not come out and say you Love or you care about
the Mac. You are no Steve Jobs and do not have Reality Distortion Field. When
you say something like you you are only really taking a piss and add insult to
injury.

And last note: Please prove me wrong in WWDC 2018.

~~~
wilsonnb
The 2017 keyboards have been an improvement over the previous iteration. Less
failures.

It's also ridiculous to say that they don't care about the Mac when they just
released the iMac Pro and are currently designing the new Mac pro.

~~~
redial
They say they care, their actions have proven otherwise. They need more than a
_promise_ of a new Mac Pro and an iMac Pro which _starts_ at $5000 to win back
their most loyal Mac fans after years, literally years of neglect.

And after this, they are gonna need years to rebuild that trust.

~~~
wilsonnb
I mean, before these new MacBooks what was the number one complaint on this
website about Macs? They don't make pro machines anymore, they don't care
about pro users, etc.

Now, as soon as they actually do something about that, no one cares anymore.

------
oliv__
Great. Hopefully this will force/cause them to reevaluate the butterfly
keyboards and get back to a more sensible design.

Or if they really have to keep those (imo) awful keyboards, I feel like they
could at least offer more clicky/soft/silent keyboards as an option.

~~~
wingworks
Agreed, I don't mind the new keyboard (apart from when a key fails), the only
issue I have is how much louder they are than the old style.

------
Alex3917
The fact that the keys occasionally stop working is a problem.

The bigger problem is that this can't be fixed in stores, and it takes 13 days
to get your computer back once you ship it to Apple.

~~~
Stratoscope
Yikes. On pretty much any ThinkPad except for the X1 series, replacing the
keyboard is a five minute task you can do yourself, and Lenovo will overnight
you a new keyboard. The only tool needed is a #1 Philips screwdriver.

Alas, the X1 Carbon and X1 Yoga abandoned this design. The keyboard is no
longer a CRU (Customer Replaceable Unit). It's a complete teardown to get to
it. But if you get the onsite service option they will send someone out the
next business day to replace it.

~~~
kalleboo
Once upon a time, Apple keyboards were just two hooks and a hinge away from
replacement (and RAM was right under there too)
[http://www.laptoppartstore.com/uploads/9/3/9/4/9394972/50755...](http://www.laptoppartstore.com/uploads/9/3/9/4/9394972/5075539_orig.jpg)

------
modernerd
Two keys are failing on my MBP 15" (one rocks and sticks; the other is loose
on one corner and occasionally falls out). I have AppleCare and my options
were to:

\- Send or deliver the laptop for repair and wait ~1-2 weeks for its return.

\- Pay ~$35 for two replacement keys and butterfly mechanisms from an online
spares shop and attempt the repair myself.

I chose to pay the $35 — the keys should be here next week.

I'm now concerned this will recur after the fix unless I only use an external
keyboard, which seems daft for a laptop.

After 15+ years of buying Apple laptops I'm seriously considering making the
repair myself then selling the laptop, and buying a Lenovo or Dell. I type
100wpm+ and good keyboards are so important, but I'd really miss several
macOS-specific apps (Sketch, iTerm, Airmail).

~~~
hellcow
I recently went through the same Mac to Windows conversion.

For a Sketch replacement, try Lunacy by Icons8 -- it's a Sketch clone for
Windows (not quite as good, but pretty damn close, and it opens even complex
sketch files perfectly). It's also free.

For an iTerm replacement, use ConEmu with WSL. You'll have to fiddle around
with the settings to make it look good, but it's hugely customizable, and then
you can run Ubuntu or Arch or whatever else you want natively on Windows.

~~~
dzonga
figma runs in the browser. equally powerful as sketch

------
artursapek
I manage a team of roughly 10 devs and I have seen them one at a time get
pissed off at their MB Pro and ask to switch to using a Linux machine. The
keyboard is always the biggest complaint. I even made our company change its
onboarding process to offer the option of buying a Windows laptop and
installing some distro of Linux on it instead of just giving everyone a Mac
(which they and the rest of Silicon Valley have been doing for years).

I bought my first Thinkpad when I checked out the new MB Pros when they came
out in Fall of ‘16. I was so disgusted by the keyboard that I went home and
bought my X1 Carbon and learned how to set up a Linux machine (surprisingly
easy!)

Apple has really lost its way. They’re selling eye candy now, not work
machines.

~~~
adrianpike
Heyo, what Windows laptops are you providing these days? I'm possibly going to
jump ship and it's about time to get a new laptop.

~~~
artursapek
Thinkpads are #1. System76 and the XPS 13s are also a hit.

~~~
wcfields
There’s been a half-dozen LVFS / System76 drama threads[1] in the past week
alone. Despite whatever your feelings are on BIOS, the general consensuous
from S76 owners are the laptops aren’t that great.

[1]
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17037845](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17037845)

~~~
artursapek
It's a newer thing on our team for sure. Time will tell if System76 are a good
choice.

------
flyinglizard
I'm on my second 13" MBP, after this exact problem. The first one had this
problem pretty severely on the 'n' key, the new one has it on 'j' but not as
bad.

Anyway, this helps prevent the accidental double taps on the bad keys:
[https://github.com/toothbrush/debounce-
mac](https://github.com/toothbrush/debounce-mac)

------
jankotek
Apple is a joke. My experience with Dell XPS 13:

Keyboard failed, most likely some dirt or liquid. I was in foreign country so
bad situation. Dell technician arrived next day to my hotel and changed
keyboard in front of me. They even got correct keyboard layout (czech). This
was done as part of basic 2 year warranty, I have no business plan.

~~~
marsRoverDev
I can vouch for this - had my charger overnighted in a foreign country free of
charge.

I used to be able to rely on Apple to put this kind of effort in, but I don't
think I would be able to today. Dell are really trying.

~~~
ghostly_s
I received a DOA monitor from Dell last month and they tried to tell me I
could only get it replaced with a refurb, after an hour on the phone they
finally agreed to replace it. Then it took literally a month of waiting days
between emails asking me to provide bits of info I already provided in the
first phone call before the finally delivered it. Why is there PC support so
different?

~~~
blakes
Mostly because their monitors very rarely have issues. I've personally
deployed/managed probably over a thousand Dell ultrasharp monitors and over
the course of nearly ten years, I've only seen one go bad. And I do remember
it was not easy getting it replaced, a relative ordeal compared to ProSupport
on the PC. Their PC support is seriously unmatched, I tell everyone to get the
Pro support and accidental coverage for laptops, I have many stories of Dell
asking no questions and sending brand new replacements. My favorite is the 3k
precision laptop that fell off a crane and we sent back essentially a box of
whatever was left and two days later had an exact replacement.

------
solomatov
I had to pay ~$700 for a repair of my work MacBook Pro 15" because I tried to
fix the problem by removing the key cap and cleaning under it.

My current work computer is old MacBook Pro. My personal one is Dell XPS 13"
and if nothing happens to their design, my next work computer likely will be
Dell Precision 15".

------
fermienrico
Apple filed a patent for ingress prevention this year to address this issue.
Not sure when it will make it into production:
[https://patents.google.com/patent/US20180068808A1/en](https://patents.google.com/patent/US20180068808A1/en)

~~~
gammarator
1\. I wonder if they could replace existing keyboards with the new design.

2\. Some of the designs they show look like they would still allow dust to get
in but make it even more impossible to get out...

------
rileymat2
I have several keys that randomly type twice, I hate it. Went through the tech
support and at the end they wanted me to reinstall the OS.

But that is pretty much nonsense, as when I hit the key in a different place,
it reacts differently.

------
bonestamp2
I upgrade my two macbook pro 15" every year. I have not upgraded since 2015
due to these keyboards. Come on apple. Go back to the 2015 keyboard... nobody
ever complained about that keyboard. This is the risk of "fixing" a problem
that doesn't exist... you can actually break something that was reliable.

------
justinph
I have come to appreciate the new keyboard, primarily because the keys feel
more stable under fingers than the older keyboards. The shorter travel doesn't
bother me, though the additional noise is slightly annoying and the arrow key
layout is sub-par. But, on the whole, the keyboard is fine. I've only had mine
for three months, so it remains to be seen how it holds up.

It's the other parts of the MBP design that suck: USB-C induced dongle hell is
real. The touchbar is a useless gimmick. Battery life isn't great.

------
Camillo
If anyone working at Apple is reading this, know that this keyboard has cost
you two laptop purchases from me alone.

At work I still use a 15" MBP from four years ago. I would have happily
updated by now (if nothing else, because the anti-glare coating peeled off in
the center of the screen); instead, I'm going to keep it until you abandon the
butterfly keyboard.

And for my personal machine, I have an even older 13" laptop. I was going to
buy a 13" MBP, but I won't buy anything that has that butterfly keyboard.

------
komali2
I don't see the lawsuit mentioning the other common failure mode - keys
falling off.

~~~
adamisntdead
Me too, and they say it will be over $500 to fix as they need a whole new
casing

~~~
Zak
This is what turns it from a minor issue to a severe one in my mind.

I've killed a few keyboards on older Thinkpads. The replacement part was maybe
$50 new, and considerably less for a used one on Ebay. It's not integrated
with any other component and can be changed in 10 minutes with only a Phillips
screwdriver.

I'm sure integrating the keyboard with the expensive machined aluminum upper
case, trackpad and whatever else is built into that component resulted in a
laptop that's 1mm thinner.

~~~
cjcampbell
I have encountered Lenovo integrating the keyboard on other some of their
models while helping friends with repairs. Of course, the top case replacement
was not so insanely expensive, but it was still a point of frustration from
the repair perspective. Certainly disappointed in Apple making the same move
here.

------
makecheck
If the average resolution is at least one $700 keyboard replacement plus 1-2
weeks (and they really should calculate a dollar amount for lost time), this
ought to be massive. Yet, like many class actions, this will probably end
handing out $3 checks or some other insulting amount.

What we really need to hope is that they’ve been working on a redesign or
reverted design for awhile, as these things take years.

------
Gaelan
When it works, the butterfly is great. Feels a lot better than older MBP
keyboards. However, it does have frequent issues. If Apple can fix that while
keeping the feeling of typing, it would be great.

~~~
solomatov
And what about typing speed? I feel that I type slower on the new MBP than on
older models.

~~~
Gaelan
I don't think I've noticed a difference, but it's not something I've been
paying attention to.

------
dep_b
Thank god I bought the 2015. Not sure how long to hold out to buy a laptop for
my wife. She's a graphics artist and is really really really tired of using
Windows.

~~~
danielbln
They still sell the 2015 new, it's a bit hidden, but available. We bought one
a few months ago for a dev, after his second MBP had failing USB-C ports. The
new MBP seems like such a weird step back. Sound is worse, keyboard is
arguably worse, unnecessarily reductive (and often faulty) ports, gimmicky
touch bar, no more magsafe, etc.

~~~
Aditya_Garg
Are you saying that they are selling the 2015 on the Apple website? Could you
show me where? I couldn't find it on their website.

~~~
yellowbkpk
They sell the 15" "Late 2015" model: [https://www.apple.com/shop/buy-
mac/macbook-pro?product=MJLQ2...](https://www.apple.com/shop/buy-mac/macbook-
pro?product=MJLQ2LL/A&step=config#)

~~~
newhouseb
Oh, wow! Do they sell the 13" anywhere? That'd be very tempting...

(fwiw, pasting in the corresponding model numbers into the URL gave me no such
luck)

------
deckarep
Hey Apple...please prioritize robustness over thinness...I don’t care if my
laptop is super thin and has keys that only have to travel .00000003
millimeters if the thing isn’t going to work after a dust particle falls on
it.

------
ryanbertrand
My B, and Up/Down Arrow keys were either hard to press or would “double”
events. I now have a compressed air bottle next to my desk. It seems to do its
job but I never had to do this with my previous MacBooks!

Another issue I face is pain in my first finger joints (right below the
fingernail bed) after a long day of typing. Maybe I just have heavy fingers
but the old softer keys were less harsh.

Another unrelated (we’ll it is like a keyboard, right? :) issue is the
TouchBar requiring two taps for most things. I even have my TouchBar as
“static” with just a few buttons.

------
snissn
I got a $2 can of compressed air and it helped my keyboard a lot - posting in
case it helps some other hackers

~~~
kondro
We are an all Mac office and I can assure you that compressed air works great…
until it doesn’t anymore.

~~~
wingworks
Yep, I used compressed air on my new MBP maybe 5 times before it stopped
"fixing" the issue. Now, after a lot of hassle, I have managed to get Apple to
fix the keyboard. MBP has been at an AASP since last week Monday, fingers
crossed it'll be fixed soon... I was pretty tempted to just buy a new MBP from
Apple while my current Mac is in repair and return the new one when my Mac got
fixed.

------
Reason077
The "debris gumming up the keys" issue with the MacBook butterfly keyboard is
certainly annoying. But there's a pretty easy fix in my experience: a few
strategically delivered bursts from an air duster will clean them out nicely.

Apple even provides a guide on how to do it: [https://support.apple.com/en-
gb/HT205662](https://support.apple.com/en-gb/HT205662)

~~~
always_good
The bigger issue is the loosening of the C-clamps due to this inevitable wear
that makes the keys come right off.

Also, this happened to me inside of four months with the computer. I didn't
have to air-can my previous Macbook Air for the four years I had it.

------
jamiegreen
The worst part for me is the sound, the noise is so much more irritating than
other keyboards for some reason. I think perhaps because of the higher pitch.

------
luigi23
I've got 15" 2017 and for me the keyboard is not the biggest problem; rather
it's the integrated graphics.

Intel HD 630 is so bad that I can spot the lag during scroll in Safari. I
switched to Radeon by turning on Photos.app(yes, if you ran Photos it would
switch to discrete graphics).

I just can't grasp why the 13" has better integrated graphics than 15".

------
Nk26
I haven't had a key fail on my 2017 yet, but the keys are all over the place
in terms of how they feel. The delete key works but feels like not actuating
properly. The spacebar is awful.

------
esotericsean
Still using my mid-2015 rMBP, waiting to upgrade until Apple fixes the issues
with the current gen. Also waiting for at least 32GB RAM.

~~~
liquidify
I've got 16GB in a 2010, and I've been wanting more since. No idea why they
are stuck in 2009 - 2010.

------
erdojo
I cuently have tree keys acting up. It's a pain in the ass and as much as I've
loved Apple poducts fo almost 3 years, I'm eady to give them the old eave o.

Translation: I currently have three keys acting up. It's a pain in the ass and
as much as I've loved Apple products for almost 30 years, I'm ready to give
them the old heave ho.

------
jimejim
I've had the keyboard replaced twice for the exact same issue, the "B" key
kept repeating. I'll probably have to pay extra if it happens again, but
already you I've lost about days waiting on the repair since they have to ship
it out.

I prefer to use an external keyboard when I can, but that can't be avoided all
the time.

------
pentae
On my third New-gen 13" Macbook Pro, can confirm it's the worst laptop i've
owned in 10+ years

------
gshakir
May be this lawsuit will prompt free (or low cost) keyboard repairs similar to
$29 battery replacement.

------
ErikAugust
I would gladly pay top dollar for the 2013/2014 MBP with upgraded internals.
Beautiful machine.

------
waytogo
Had also one key which was registered as two key strokes every fifth to tenth
time. Super annoying and the solution was strange: after vacuum cleaning and
blowing the keyboard many times the only thing that helped was resetting the
NVRAM with Command + Option + P + R.

------
gshakir
I love the butterfly keyboard and one of the key did get stuck and since then
I started using compressed air once a week and it looks good so far after an
year. So I would suggest the same for others and refrain from eating around
your keyboard as much as possible.

~~~
tqkxzugoaupvwqr
I hope Apple reads this and sees how absurd their design is if people go to
such lengths to keep their machine from failing.

~~~
gshakir
Using compressed air is not so bad. Plus I like my MacBook Pro look new and
shiny :)

------
abrkn
I spend a lot of time in the tropics (Thailand) and my keyboard gets stuck
keys all the time. It's currently my single quote key. I have tried massaging
it, smacking it, faith healing, etc. Nothing helps.

------
naturalgradient
I have a 2015 Macbook Pro and Im sort of anxious because if it breaks, I
really don't want to get a butterfly keyboard one. Is there any idea when they
will release a successor?

~~~
abtinf
They still sell that model new.

------
eriktrautman
I’ve hated that keyboard with the fiery passion of a thousand suns since the
first time I used it and it kept getting worse with every stuck key - one of
several reasons why the 12” MB is a “Bimbo” model that looks pretty and works
like crap - but the idea of fixing this via lawsuit seems like a bad
precedent. Their design sucks and the whole world needs to know how terrible
it is but using lawsuits in this way for what ultimately comes down to a
product just being kind of crappy seems innovation stifling. Give permission
to make crappy things and let the market penalize you for it.

------
dirtylowprofile
Typing this comment in my MBP 2012, when did this butterfly keyboard started?
On what model?

------
segmondy
Apple has lots of cash, The vultures(lawyers) who like class action lawsuits
will endless look for and try to find a case against Apple so they can extract
a lot of money and line their pockets.

~~~
rileymat2
As someone with a problem machine, I would prefer my money in the pockets of a
vulture than Apple.

------
roryisok
I don't understand why this deserves a class action lawsuit. Sure, it's not a
great design, but is it bad enough to sue over? All companies release flawed
products all the time

------
kahlonel
whoeversaysmacbookkeyboarddoesn'tworkisclearlylying /s

------
crazygringo
Sure, the new keyboard is polarizing. I personally love it, but I get why
others hate it.

But nobody seems to be mentioning that the _old_ Macbook keyboards failed too,
collected dust and debris just as much (in my personal experience). Probably
once a month I'd have to pry off a keycap, blow below, and snap the keycap
back on. Half the time it would be the space bar.

Now it's the same thing, except you use a can of compressed air instead [1].
Which I have to do, again, probably once a month. Yes it seems dumb to have to
buy one (and it's not like they warn you in advance), but on the other hand,
I'm no longer worried about breaking the mechanism when snapping on/off.

[1] [https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT205662](https://support.apple.com/en-
us/HT205662)

