

H1B restrictions would choke US of talent - nreece
http://www.hindustantimes.com/StoryPage/StoryPage.aspx?sectionName=HomePage&id=dee0d6fc-224f-4db7-a985-b4577b773e82&Headline=H1B+restrictions+would+choke+US+of+talent%3a+Premji

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eugenejen
U.S. should just grant talented people green cards without employer
sponsorship. The problem for current immigration law is for a talented person
(of course, what is the legal standard for "being talented" is another
discussion) who wants to work in U.S., unless he/she has an employer, or
she/he has more than 1 million dollars to invest. He/She can only get a green
card by marriage.

And legally, a people who has no green card can not start any S-corp/LLC to
hire her/himself. So a talented person without U.S. spouse and 1 million
dollars and employer in U.S. has no way to get a green card, even he is fully
capable of starting a start up with less than 1 million dollars by him/herself
and grow it up to hire more Americans in 5 years.

And H-1B is not the solution to attract talented people by asking them to work
as "indenture servants" in face of possible layoff and ask to leave the
country in 10 days after layoff.

~~~
ilkhd2
Who is going to take the burden of verifying who is talented and who is not?

~~~
ardit33
The same people that scream against H-1B. The ACM!! Every year they throw a
contest about programming, where most schools in the US, and many in the world
participate. <http://cm2prod.baylor.edu/welcome.icpc> I did, back in the day,
and it is pure programming talent contest, there is no way you can cheat to
it, or fake it. If you do really well in it, you ARE a really good programmer.

If you score, let's say, top 30% on that contest, you should be stapled a
green card and come here, IF you want to.

For many years, there was University of Petersburg (Russia), would win the
contest. A lot of these kids would get jobs from IBM, or MS. I'd say lets
staple them a green card, and make them work for who the fuck they want, and
maybe they create a startup, or join one, and hire even more middle/average
americans also. Remember, a lot of startups have limited resources to deal
with visa/green card sponsorship, so they can't afford to hire some of these
bright guys. If they were allowed to work for whatever they wanted to, then
they probably would benefit a lot of startup that needs really great talent
(which might get wasted in a large company).

it is a win win situation.

But no, ACM and it's cousin, the EEC, are just taken over by bigots. If, they
had their say, they would close the borders completely.

Well, accidentally, they have deviced a really good way to find out good
programmers, from a bad one.

If you say this country has enough smart people, and it doesn't need more, i
say you are full of shit. Economic opportunity is not a zero sum game. If you
give more people the ability to 'be all they can be', without visa restriction
bullshit, then there is more human potential to be unleashed, and utilized for
the best.

If you want your country to look more like Detroit, or Alabama, then close
your borders...

~~~
ilkhd2
What is connection between Detroit and Green Card? I'd say,Detroit is exactly
an outcome of excessive reliance on foreign intellectual force for building
and sustaining economy. Foreign intellectual force has a nasty habit fleeing
home or to some other country, (for example, one up north), in case of
economic downturn in the country; and that accelerates downturn really
badly.Especially bad, that accumulated knowledge is also carried out of the
country together with H1B-guys. Corollary: no matter how arrogant Americans
are about their country the standards of living are not highest there, and
with worsening of the economy exodus will grow bigger and bigger..

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zaidf
Somehow I doubt it. I don't think the situation is as black and white as the
headline and outsourcing companies would like you to believe.

~~~
alecco
I don't like any of the big outsourcing corporations but this is hard fact.
Just check the amount of IT jobs moved out of US in the last 6 months.

Also it's not just about the cost of employees. The "seat" costs in US are
usually more significant than salary. Blocking visas is suicidal.

And it was already broken. For example, I refused a little while ago an H1B
job because among other things I would hate to feel like an underclass non-
citizen worker. Screw that!

Edit: minor style.

~~~
plinkplonk
" I refused a little while ago an H1B job because among other things I would
hate to feel like an underclass non-citizen worker."

Amen Brother! The last time I worked in the Indian IT industry, I flat out
refused to apply for an H1 visa. This was few years ago but the HR folks (who
take care of the visa applications) still haven't recovered from the shock of
encountering someone who did _not_ want to go to the USA on an H1.

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pj
It's funny to read this article, considering the teaching children to argue
article at <http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=632518>

Logos: _What's that compared to 9 per cent unemployment on a total labour
force of 100 million?_

Ethos: _Obama "is too sensible to pass it. He's too mature"_

Pathos: _you'll generate a trade war with countries such as India_ , among
others...

The arguments from Premji are heavy on the pathos and light on the logos...

Cui Bono?

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pixelbath
In my experience, the only people who say this (and it's been said before) are
countries who provide the H1B workforce, and the companies who hire them on
the cheap.

~~~
nostrademons
And in my experience, the only people who say _that_ are developers whose
skill levels aren't quite what they perceive them to be.

~~~
zaidf
(1) What do you think about the companies paying less-than-average salaries to
H1B employees, thus bringing down the general salary of the American
programmer?

To the H1B employees it is acceptable given even the sub-par salary is a
significant raise to their salary in their home country. And if it is not
acceptable, they seldom complain given the obvious fear of being sent back.

Look, I have no problem with American programmers having to compete in a
global market. But if you are going to bring programmers in MY country, you
should pay the market price of MY country. OR if you don't want to, then keep
them in their home country.

The goal of H1B is to fill in a shortage of qualified labor. Bringing down the
salary of an industry is not a goal.

(2) What do you think of the well-documented practice of companies going to
great lengths to skirt around the H1B advertising process?

~~~
nostrademons
1) In my view, the problem is that there are _too many_ restrictions on H1Bs,
not too few. Notably, they should be able to switch employers without being
deported (I guess they can now, but I've heard the time window to get a new
employer to pick up your sponsorship is ridiculously short, and the amount of
red tape your new employer has to cut through is considerable). This would cut
the competitive disadvantage that an H1B has because they're effectively
locked in to one employer, which would raise their salaries up to the market
price.

2.) I'm all for it, because it recognizes that _programmers are not
interchangeable_. I find it ironic that the same people who complain about
employers treating them like interchangeable cogs in a wheel then turn around
and argue that H1Bs are taking jobs away from them, which implies that they
_are_ interchangeable cogs in a wheel. One or the other, man - either you
_are_ a beautiful unique snowflake, in which case you have nothing to worry
about from H1B competition, or you aren't, and should worry about becoming one
because you're screwed wage-wise anyway.

Your post has also touched on a couple pet peeves on mine, which are:

3) I find it disconcerting that after all the time I've spent with computers,
one of the biggest factors in my career is _still_ that I was born in
Cambridge, Massachusetts. There're many Indian or Chinese programmers who
study for _years_ \- since they're little kids - so that they can do well on
the college entrance exams, get into IIT or Chinghua, and then emigrate to the
United States in a reasonably high-paying tech field. It seems vaguely un-
American that being an American trumps smarts, hard-work, and prudent risk-
taking.

4) What's with this deification of a particular price level ("should pay he
market price of MY country")? I see this with home and stock market prices too
- people assume that whatever the high is what prices should always be, and
will go to great levels to keep them from going down. The market price is a
_signal_ \- it tells you whether there is currently more supply for an
industry than demand. If there is, perhaps you should adjust your behavior
accordingly (eg. find a different subspecialty) instead of complaining about
wages falling.

~~~
zaidf
By your logic, all the folks that pickup trash in India should be allowed to
move to America and work at a cheaper price than Americans. I am guessing you
are also not in favor of the idea immigration, preferring instead a world
where anyone can go and work anywhere.

    
    
      Notably, they should be able to switch 
      employers without being deported
    

Agree. That would fix a lot of the issues. But good luck trying to get that
through the corporate-backed H1B lobby that _thrives_ on the uncompetitive
nature of H1B.

    
    
      H1Bs are taking jobs away from them, 
      which implies that they are interchangeable cogs
    

In most cases where I have heard that argument, it is someone arguing that
their job can't be _outsourced out_ of America. They seem to be right if you
have to bring the H1Bs _into America_ to replace them. If you can replace Tom
in Cambridge's job with someone in Delhi, I have no problem with that.

    
    
      one of the biggest factors in my career 
      is still that I was born in Cambridge, 
      Massachusetts
    

The solution to that is not to import someone who is willing to work less
expensively _into your country_ to replace you.

And regardless, the idea behind H1B was never to create "fairness" between the
haves and the have-nots. The goal of H1B is a selfish one: to help America. If
it is not doing that, it's time to reconsider.

If you want an H1B-like visa to address the disparity between the Indian and
the American developer, have a debate in Congress and create a new
category(some would argue we already have many, ie. the green card lottery).

    
    
      The market price is a signal - it tells 
      you whether there is currently more supply 
      for an industry than demand.
    

Agree, but that assumes the market is open and fair. With H1Bs it is not as
you yourself point out in your first point.

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mullr
Wipro? Kind of a biased party. My group at MegaCorp has hired an army of
testers from Wipro. (they're generally competent within their job description,
which is about all you can ask of any consulting company) Anyway, the point is
that Wipro is in the business of providing cheap bodies to large companies.
That's what they do. (one of the many things they do, actually) Of course they
don't like visa restrictions.

Interesting point about my group's work with Wipro: even if we wanted to hire
such a number of people from the US, we probably couldn't. It would be too
expensive and they would be hard to find. BUT, hiring an army of testers was a
terrible idea in the first place. It was a bad solution to the problem. 2
clever people with the license to act couldn't solved the same problem for a
fraction of the cost, with better results.

So I wonder if this kind of labor acquisition is needed only by dysfunctional
companies? Hard to generalize from a single sample, but interesting to
consider.

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d0mine
A must-read on the subject - "Debunking the Myth of a Desperate Software Labor
Shortage" <http://heather.cs.ucdavis.edu/itaa.real.html>

~~~
mahmud
The publication date on that paper is 1998, with an update in 2002: Don't you
think the economic climate has changed since? (admittedly in support of your
argument; but still, we might be due for another research.)

~~~
d0mine
What is H1B for an employer: a young cheap worker putting long-hours for a
company he can't leave for a few years in most cases.

It was true in 1998, it is true now.

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kvs
One simple albeit temporary fix: Make H1Bs independent of sponsoring employer.
Give those people freedom to float around like the rest of us and see how
things turn out.

My guess is employers will have to start treating H1Bs as they treat others
and that should change the economics on them to reduce H1B abuse.

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known
I think the presence of H1B Engineers will create more jobs in America.

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dmly
so would India outsource its work to say Sri Lanka??

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ilkhd2
There is one overlooked problem: people who leave there own countries - they
do not contribute to the development of their motherlands. Even if they send
money back to relativies, the do not engage in social life. There hundreds of
social poblems in India, dalits fo example the need a lot of social momentum
to solve them. Smart people leave nobody would fight. Second - c'mon, are you
going to beleive Indian sources when the are talking about H1B...It's like
beleiving Fox news.

