

The Advanced Placement Juggernaut - tokenadult
http://roomfordebate.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/12/20/the-advanced-placement-juggernaut/

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javaru
My anecdotal evidence says that the teacher makes much more of a difference
than even the students. In my high school, every single kid that took AP
Calculus got a 4 or 5 because the teacher was great, and barely anyone passed
the chemistry exam. In a competing high school not far away it was exactly
reversed: there was an effective chemistry teacher and every kid got a 4 or 5,
but somehow they struggled in calculus.

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DarkShikari
The point about pressure to take AP courses and exams that students aren't
prepared to is rather interesting. One can see this effect by looking at the
US News and World Report high school ranking:

[http://www.usnews.com/articles/education/high-
schools/2009/1...](http://www.usnews.com/articles/education/high-
schools/2009/12/09/americas-best-high-schools-gold-medal-list.html)

The ranking is not necessary a great resource, but IMO the statistics within
each school's stats are telling. Let's take the example of my former high
school, Thomas Jefferson, versus another highly-ranked one (IIRC they were
second last year):

    
    
        Thomas Jefferson High School (Alexandria, VA):
        Exams Per Test Taker             7.1
        Exam Passing Rate (3 or above): 98.1%
    
        Oxford Academy (Orange County, CA):
        Exams Per Test Taker             6.6
        Exam Passing Rate (3 or above): 76.5%
    

Some schools seem to get away with enormous numbers of AP exams per student--
and still reliably get high scores. Others, despite being top-ranked, don't do
nearly as well. Is it because the students are better to begin with? A
selective school will clearly get better average scores than a less selective
one. Is it because the courses are better-taught? Does any of this count for
what is effectively a factor-of-10 gap (in terms of number of failing
students)?

Another is perhaps even more telling:

    
    
        The School for the Talented and Gifted (Dallas, TX):
        Exams Per Test Taker            13.2
        Exam Passing Rate (3 or above): 60.9%
    

This one's a magnet school just like TJ, but the number of APs they take is
_utterly ridiculous_ : and their pass rate suffers. I suspect that there is a
certain number of APs per student that is optimal, and beyond that the pass
rate collapses.

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Locke1689
Scroll down a little to Philip M. Sadler and you will see a great example of
cognitive dissonance.

 _Many had passed the A.P. exam, but had either been advised to take the
college course as a way to deepen their knowledge or had to because their exam
score did not meet departmental requirements. This group gave us an
opportunity to see how A.P. students fared in college science, since passing
an A.P. exam is presumed to mean that they had mastered a college-level
course.

We found that students who took and passed an A.P. science exam did about one-
third of a letter grade better than their classmates with similar backgrounds
who did not take an A.P. course. Even a score of 5 on an A.P. test is no
guarantee of a college grade of A in the same subject._

First, passing an AP exam (3 or better) is only presumed to mean that they
mastered the course at the less selective schools. It says in the preamble
that the most selective schools recognize that a 3 or 4 is not good enough for
college credit.

He then went ahead and decided that he would compare people who _didn't get a
5 on the AP test_ with people who had never taken the course and decided that
the grade difference meant that APs don't mean anything. It's like taking a
group of people who failed a test the first time, giving it to them again, and
then being surprised when the fail again. (Note: They didn't really fail, they
just failed to be in an upper percentile of the class, which would be expected
if they didn't know the material.)

I also find it hilarious that he expected everyone with a 5 to get an A in the
course. I know a bunch of subjects I could have got an A in had I cared less
about my CS courses.

~~~
ubernostrum
_I know a bunch of subjects I could have got an A in had I cared less about my
CS courses._

I find this comment to be rather sad.

~~~
Locke1689
Well, GenEng courses require a lot of time and I would rather get an A in my
CS course than get an A in Civil Engineering 201 (instead of a B+). My
schedule sometimes involves tradeoffs (i.e., two required courses held at the
same time), what's sad about that?

~~~
ubernostrum
What's sad is that you apparently treated college as a vocational-training
school. That's fairly normal these days, but still not something I like to see
happen.

~~~
Locke1689
No I think that's a false comparison. Simply because I _favor_ my computer
science classes over others when they compete doesn't mean I don't receive a
breadth education -- it simply means I'm a computer science major. Doing
nothing but computer science would be treating college as vocational school,
but that's not what I said. Instead I said that sometimes I sacrificed high
grades in other courses for a high grade in computer science.

In addition, there's only a loose relationship between getting a very good
grade in a course (as opposed to a good-mediocre one) and getting breadth
knowledge out of the course. To believe otherwise would be to satisfy
tendencies of grade inflation. For example, an A in a course was originally
supposed to mean an excellent performance beyond expectation. To get an A in
every single course should signal that you are either 1) extraordinarily
dedicated to your school work and extremely bright or 2) the school is handing
out an A not for extraordinary work, but only good work. In light of this, the
most reasonable grade distribution for a bright, dedicated student would be a
very strong (hopefully A level) grade distribution in their area of
specialization with a good but not as extraordinary distribution in their
breadth subjects.

It was interesting that you noted me as focusing on CS like vocational
training when I actually take pride in my choice of courses as true liberal
arts education. For example, while I am an engineer CS major, I will have
taken enough courses in the physics and philosophy departments to almost
qualify for a minor in the fields. Simply because I am unable to dedicated my
time to all of my varied classes at once does not mean that I do not
participate in number of different liberal arts.

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idan
Not all AP subjects are created equal, either. I had the privilege of
attending a Fancy Private School(tm) which offered the full gamut of AP
courses, and took advantage of a handful: English, Biology, Chemistry, French
Literature, Calculus.

Of all these subjects, the French Literature (not to be confused with the
langauge AP) was an order of magnitude harder. At my school, only students who
stayed in the AP track from freshman year onwards were able to take the "AP"
class, effectively making the AP requirement 4 years long. It was purely
necessary: by 9th grade you know a little French, but the intensive vocabulary
building, then reading simple books (The Little Prince), then graduating to
proper literature and poetry -- it takes time to build up to that level. The
program was hard but well worth it: the entire AP class (9 in total, starting
from 30) came away with 4s and 5s. NYU later gave me something like three
semester-class' worth of credits for that one AP. I think the monetary value
for that is something like $10,000. Not too shabby.

I had some friends who took the Music Theory AP and reported a similarly
difficult experience.

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yardie
I took a few APs and I got the feeling that while a few students were really
interested in the subject and really wanted the college experience, most just
wanted the bump in the GPA. Due to the expense of it the lab component was
completely dropped. Since I learn mostly by trying and experimenting I felt
like I learned less than when I took honors physics. I think by exam time most
of realized we weren't really prepared and got used to the idea of taking
college physics no matter the grade we got.

The college board makes a lot of money on these exams. The district paid for
the curriculum and the exams. About $600 per student on average I believe. So
there is a lot of money to be made by signing students up.

~~~
tokenadult
The exams cost considerably less than $600, even at list price, and the
curricula are not published by College Board, but by independent textbook
publishers.

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bmalicoat
Not sure if it was the norm but the AP classes in my high school just gave
more homework, nothing more challenging nor deeper into the subject matter,
just a greater volume. That approach doesn't seem that helpful to me.
Hopefully others experienced it differently.

~~~
alecst
That's odd, because my AP experience was exactly the opposite. While I did
have more homework in AP Literature, the homework was meaningful, personal,
and founded on the cumulative knowledge attained over the course. On the other
hand, in my AP Statistics class, the homework hardly counted at all while the
emphasis was on the tests (which I feel is appropriate for the subject). In my
ordinary classes the homework was boring, redundant and even comical at times.

~~~
chrischen
I think the general trend of AP classes is to focus on getting people passing
grades on the exam, and this hurts the ability of the class to explore into
other topics, or doing things that would not contribute greatly to that
specific goal. English essays would be formulaic, and my history class was
constant timed practice exams and formulaic essay writing. If I remember
correctly, some of my teachers complained about not being able to explore off-
topic.

~~~
alecst
I should note that lately I've discovered that my experience in AP Lit was
highly unconventional.

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eof
It seems they should start 'advanced placement' much much earlier than high
school.

A modular design to education with students mastering skill sets instead of
growing older to 'move through the ranks' would allow students to always
remain around their educational peers regardless of age, allow bright students
to excel, and maintain support for those struggling.

~~~
tokenadult
_A modular design to education with students mastering skill sets instead of
growing older to 'move through the ranks' would allow students to always
remain around their educational peers regardless of age, allow bright students
to excel, and maintain support for those struggling._

Yes. There is no particular reason why students should be kept in lockstep by
age in school. Schools were once organized differently.

<http://learninfreedom.org/age_grading_bad.html>

