
What kind of data is my new car collecting? - throw0101a
https://www.theglobeandmail.com/drive/technology/article-what-kind-of-data-is-my-new-car-collecting-about-me-nearly-everything/
======
SamuelAdams
> “There’s just massive amounts of data being collected, and if you want the
> service, you have to agree to it. And people do agree to it, and they have
> relatively little control over things,” Scassa says.

I'm curious what this will do to the used car market in 10-15 years. Say the
original owner consented to all this data tracking. They go to sell the car to
buy a new one, and the 2nd owner does not agree to the tracking. Is there a
vendor-provided way to shut this off? Or is the vehicle always stuck in a
"data collecting mode" regardless of who it is sold to?

Furthermore, if a customer changes the car to stop data upload, that could be
seen as tampering with a vehicle. This could lead to legal consequences, but
I'm not a lawyer so I can't dwell on the specifics.

~~~
xg15
Seems to me answering those questions will be part of a greater process to
balance power and interests between manufacturers and consumers/users.

E.g., Tesla already seems to try and decide the questions in the way
manufacturers would likely have them, i.e. suppressing data transmission _is_
tampering and the problem of car reselling doesn't apply as cars cannot be
resold anymore without manufacturer involvement.

I think it's up to consumers to offer a different perspective here.

~~~
paganel
> s tampering and the problem of car reselling doesn't apply as cars cannot be
> resold anymore without manufacturer involvement.

I suspect this will become a huge societal problem if it continues like this
in a car-dependent country like the US. Yes, the middle-class people will
probably still be able to purchase $30,000-40,000 cars for the foreseeable
future (even adjusted for inflation), but what will happen to the people who
won't be able to purchase a second-hand car that costs more than $5000-6000
(or even $1000-2000)? How will they continue to get to work in a country that
values public transport so lowly?

~~~
everdrive
Good reliable cars are currently cheaper than ever. Of all the problems
stacked against the poor, I'm not sure that cars have become less obtainable.
Adjusted for inflation, the cheapest economy cars are quite inexpensive, and
generally speaking, they last much longer than they did 20-30 years ago.

~~~
ng7j5d9
That's the opposite sentiment that I've heard recently (from an American
perspective). My understanding is that our used cars are more expensive than
ever due to:

a) Certified pre-owned and similar programs making some used cars more
appealing (and thus more valuable), removing them from the supply of unvetted,
cheap used cars.

b) More folks being able to afford used cars around the world. It seems like
at the lower end of the market, many American used cars are shipped to Latin
America or the Caribbean (in Europe many older cars are sent to Africa), again
reducing the supply of used cars.

This is my sketchy recollection of things I've heard and read, I don't have
any direct sources to link you to, but I've certainly heard multiple people
bemoan that say, $5-10k doesn't buy you nearly as good a car as it used to
(even adjusting for inflation).

EDIT: As an aside, the issue of shipping cars to different regions could also
prove interesting for owners down the road. There are already some issues
there - I believe my car's navigation system is for North America, or maybe
US+Canada. So if my car gets shipped to Argentina in 10 years, the Nav will be
useless or will need an update. Not a huge deal. But if Tesla's Autopilot is
tuned for conditions and laws in a certain region, it would presumably require
reprogramming for another region. Would that be an automatic over-the-air
update? Or would Tesla not want to bother with free updates to a 20-year-old
car?

~~~
mox1
There's a very long tail of used cars. When you are talking CPO (certified
pre-owned), you are talking 0-3 years old, with perhaps 50,000 miles or less
(15k-30k probably the sweet spot). Sometimes these can be a good deal,
sometimes you can get like 5-10% off the new price (which seems not worth
it...to me)

The OP talking about a $5,000 car is talking about a 10-20 year old car with
100,000+ miles.

Both cars appeal to a different set of buyers. The CPO car effectively
competes against new cars.

It's not uncommon at all today to see a car tick over 200,000+ miles, so
buying a car for $5,000 with 100,000 miles on it can be seen as a pretty good
deal. Usually people would recommend a good Japanese / Korean car (Toyota,
Honda, etc.).

------
hprotagonist
Not too long ago I owned a motorcycle from the 70s. I realized at one point
that it was probably EMP-proof: no fuel injection, no fuel pump, certainly no
OBD anything, and a (literal) kickstarter. The most complicated thing in the
wiring harness was the key cylinder and the relay for the turn signals and
headlights.

I miss that bike sometimes.

~~~
_Microft
There is an urban fantasy series called "The Rivers of London" series after
the first book (or "Peter Grant"-series after the main character) and magic
interferes with (in the sense of _completely fries_ ) more complicated
electronics there, so his master (the last fully qualified wizard of Great
Britain) also drives an old Jaguar that is all-mechanical and therefore magic-
proof. Very entertaining series with lots of references to current pop
culture.

Edit:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jaguar_Mark_2#Portrayal_in_med...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jaguar_Mark_2#Portrayal_in_media)

~~~
dminor
Sounds very similar to "The Dresden Files". The main character is forced to
drive around in an old car, since his magic interferes with electronics.

~~~
foxyv
That poor car... It was almost a character of the series and it was always
getting the worst end of things. I would drive a beetle if I didn't know it
would kill me in an accident. One almost killed my dad.

------
Seenso
One of my major requirements when I was shopping for my last car was that it
not have a cell modem to enable connected car features. It's too difficult for
them to monetize your data if they can't get it off your car in near-real
time. I also reckon it's a bit more secure.

The car salesmen have no idea about whether the cars they're selling have
modems or not, so I found you have to ask about them indirectly in terms of
features. I has success with this line of questioning: 1) Does this car have
connected car features? 2) If it does, and I decide to get them later, can you
enable them from your computer without me having to bring my car in? If the
answer is yes to both questions, the car has a modem.

Unfortunately, my wife wanted a car that failed that test. However, my
research had indicated that those features seem to be implemented by a module
that's separate from the entertainment system. Hopefully I can physically
disconnect it without the car nagging about it being missing, but that's a
project for another day.

~~~
gambler
_> Hopefully I can physically disconnect it without the car nagging about it
being missing_

Don't count on it. Physically locating it and disconnecting it might be very
difficult. Worse, since the module in networked via CAN, you literally have no
idea how the rest of your car will react. It could switch to limp mode, for
example.

~~~
Seenso
> Don't count on it. Physically locating it and disconnecting it might be very
> difficult.

I already know where it is: it's in a box underneath the entertainment system
("head unit"), and there are a lot of instructions about accessing it.

I also have two options for disconnecting it:

1) total disconnection

2) leave it connected, but cripple its function by removing the antenna
connections

I'm thinking that if #1 results in an error #2 would be less likely to.

~~~
namibj
Better: unscrew the antenna and screw in a matched termination/load instead.
This will protect the amplifier inside (HF reflections due to a miss match
could fry it with overloading the transistor), and be an even worse antenna
compared to an open SMA (or such) connector.

------
raesene9
One thing that's interesting to me is, modern cars know (relatively
accurately) whether you're speeding or not. They have GPS and a database of
speed limits.

Also depending on what's in the car, they may know who was driving it.

How long before a speed safety campaign starts arguing that car manufacturers
should be handing over information about people breaking the law in their cars
to law enforcement...

~~~
esotericn
The information is still not even remotely accurate enough for this to work
without ridiculously high levels of false positives.

An obvious example would be in Germany. The autobahn for example has sections
that are unrestricted, but those same sections are 130kmh (or sometimes lower)
if it's between certain times or raining or whatever.

Half of the time my car interprets that as just being 130.

Outside of that; there are countless instances of my car thinking I'm in an
80kmh zone when it's actually 100, 120, whatever. I can override that because
I know what the actual speed limit is. Would the car be constantly reporting
back that I'm doing a bad?

Ultimately I reckon perfect enforcement of this would just stop me bothering.
I'll get someone else to drive me around like an Uber and they can take the
endless tickets instead.

~~~
raesene9
I guess that depends on country. For example the UK has no public road (that
I'm aware of) where a speed of higher than 70mph is allowed, so that would be
an easy initial rule.

Where there are dynamic speed limits in place, it would be plausible to report
back possibles (car location and speed) which could then be checked against a
central database which was more accurate.

I'm not suggesting that such a system is a good idea, but that I can see car
safety campaigners looking on it as the next step in their campaigns...

~~~
judge2020
In the US this sort of detection is privatized - by insurance companies
lowering your rates if you run their app which beans your location, speed, and
motion/fitness data to their servers. At least for Allstate you need 50 drives
a month to qualify for the discount, and hard braking or speeds over 80
disqualify a drive from being counted for the discount.

~~~
dsfyu404ed
>Allstate you need 50 drives a month to qualify for the discount, and hard
braking or speeds over 80 disqualify a drive from being counted for the
discount.

The really stupid thing about this is that driving 80+ and the occasional hard
braking is just normal traffic condition on some roads at some hours.
Penalizing people for needing to use those roads at those times and acting
like every other normal human around them when doing so defeats the point of
insurance.

------
kgwxd
I'd really love to see companies start being proud to be "dumb" and
disconnected.

~~~
zaphod12
and you'll pay a very large premium for it, too, unfortunately, since the
company has to close off another revenue stream.

~~~
mywittyname
At what point does data become so accessible as to be worthless?

~~~
RickS
IMO the better question is when data becomes too expensive to be worth it.

There are currently no serious financial downsides to scraping, hoarding,
selling, or leaking customer data. There is huge financial upside to doing or
risking all of those things.

Companies' data policies may be user-hostile, but they're economically
rational.

Data becomes "worthless" when the average joe's phone number is worth $0.003
to marketers, but there's a $500 fine for leaking it, allowing access from an
internal team for purposes not specified in a granular opt-in form, or for
being found to possess it after its deletion was requested. Routine third
party audits are mandatory if you want to interact with other serious players
in your industry.

For all the ways that banking and healthcare are hellish, they've at least got
the semblance of teeth on stuff like this.

We'll know it's working right when companies spend the same effort to _avoid_
hosting your data that they spend on collecting it today.

------
pmlnr
> A car camera for Affectiva, a company that is developing technology for
> measuring driver emotions, in Boston, on Oct. 6, 2018.

No. Just no. Why would anyone allow collecting this kind of information? There
is no way it can't (so, won't) be used against you. Everyone gets angry from
time to time.

~~~
maze-le
There is also no way this information is 100% accurate at all times. Emotional
recognition is inherently probabilistic -- there will be false positives and
false negatives, no matter how good the heuristic is. In the end, it'll be you
who has to prove that you were in an emotional stable state, and not the
algorithm that gets scrutinized.

~~~
bsenftner
Emotional recognition is pure fraud, with zero scientific basis. Snake oil is
a big part of the current AI product matrix.

~~~
Jamwinner
Seems to go over well with the phrenology crowd if you get my drift.

~~~
zrobotics
Somehow, it's always all about the skulls.

------
geocrasher
I'm proud to say that my vehicle has zero tracking, is user serviceable, and
my purchase of it had zero carbon impact.

It's also 32 years old, gets 14-15mpg, and drives like a truck. It's a 1988
Chevy Suburban. I bought it a few years ago, for $1450 and really haven't put
much into it overall. It runs reasonable well (still some things to figure
out) and is comfortable. If I had some money I'd fix some of the things wrong
with it and update the interior with seats out of a newer model, but overall,
it just works.

And that's what I see going UP in value over time. To think I could own a car
that could tell some corporate partner where I went for lunch is just
unfathomable. I can't afford to own a car that "cool" and I'm glad for it.

~~~
bagacrap
I'm glad you're happy with your ownership of that thing, but I'm more glad
that most of them are off the road by now as we've made great strides in
emissions and crash safety since the 80s, not to mention mileage. These are
factors with measurable real-world impact on your fellow citizens, and, I
would submit, more important than your paranoid secrecy wrt your dietary
habits.

~~~
geocrasher
Heh it's not paranoia, it's just a matter of privacy. Then again, my phone
already knows, so it's moot. Crash safety has come a long way, no doubt. But
mileage really has not.

For all the complexity of a modern Suburban (at over $50K USD!) it gets 14 MPG
around town and up to 23 MPG on the highway. Mine gets about 14/17\. Since
most of my driving is local, it doesn't really matter.

~~~
bagacrap
FWIW unless you have a diesel your official city mileage was 11 when the car
was new. But as someone who has to live near other people and use roadways
myself, I'm more concerned about tailpipe emissions. NOx standards are
literally 100x more stringent starting in 2025 than 30 years ago (50x now
compared to 1988).

------
mothsonasloth
I used to work for a British car manufacturer which is currently in the
process of monetizing all the telemetry they get out of their vehicles, some
examples:

* Pothole tracking --> sell to local goverments

* Tyre wear --> sell customer data to target adverts for them / promotions

* Hybrid battery charge levels --> sell data to EV charge point companies.

What was even more concerning was that this data is being collected by another
company (who supplied the hardware), who had first dibs on the data.

------
cs702
Will the impersonal multinational corporations that control the software in
you car be looking out for your best interests?

Will the data collected about you and your behavior be used in ways that never
go against your best interests?

Can individual software developers and teams working for these corporations do
much about this if they disagree with it?

The answer to these and many other related questions is _probably not_.

Little by little, we human beings are gradually building a panopticon
monitored by machines under the control of corporate organisms whose behavior
is beyond the control of most human beings. As an example, think about about
all the people at Google who have tried, mostly without success, to prevent it
from acting like every other impersonal corporation. There's nothing
preventing it.

------
imposterr
[http://archive.is/JdLhu](http://archive.is/JdLhu)

------
avip
It's educational to read waze's verbose privacy policy which goes over what is
collected and why.

Assuming good faith here, this is one of the best privacy statements I've
read.

[https://www.waze.com/legal/privacy](https://www.waze.com/legal/privacy)

------
bsenftner
Yeah, my last car purchase was an exercise in locating a vehicle without any
"smart" technologies. Car manufacturers are the last corporate group I'd trust
with anything they are not heavily regulated to provide, such as basic safety
measures such as the seat belts they fought for years not to provide. I plan
on this being a car I nurse forever, as it is going to be a generation of
extremely intrusive data collection, and extremely poor security on these
vehicles. I'm staying away for a complete generation, if possible.

~~~
0xffff2
What car did you end up buying?

~~~
coldpie
I was in a similar situation and ended up with a 2011 Mazda3 hatchback. The
plan is to limp this sucker along until hopefully our public transit
infrastructure improves enough that I don't have to drive ever again.

~~~
blaser-waffle
HAH! Was shopping for something similar, albeit a 2012 and/or 2013 that a
local dealer has in stock.

Same idea though: drive it until it dies and then pray that uber/lyft/whatever
is mature enough that I never have to think about it again.

~~~
stanferder
If your goal is to maintain your privacy as you travel around town,
uber/lyft/whatever aren't a suitable solution.

------
jhoechtl
As long as self-driving a car will be allowed (and I predict this will become
quickly impossible the moment self-driven cars will share the space with
autonomous vehicles) I will refrain buying any car collecting AND transmitting
data without my consent.

Yes that means in ten years or so I will be riding a used shabby old car.

~~~
ethanwillis
A used shabby car can be completely rebuilt, not just the engine, for a tenth
of the cost of a new car.

~~~
RickS
I don't think that's true.

You can get a new car for $15k in the US. "completely rebuilding" a used car
of any quality, by any definition, is likely to surpass 15k in labor alone,
unless you're doing the work entirely by yourself, at which point it's likely
to cost 15k in tools.

------
djanogo
Toyota is also doing this now, they began collecting data all 2020 models with
TSS 2.0. They started insurance offerings to generate $$ off of this data,
toyotaims.com.

~~~
882661830
As a benefit for paying for their safety services they will harvest everything
by default, it’s not even clear if you can opt out of absolutely everything

[https://www.toyota.com/privacyvts/images/doc/privacy-
portal....](https://www.toyota.com/privacyvts/images/doc/privacy-portal.pdf)

------
moretai
Has there been a similar dive into what Tesla collects?

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st8675309
Sometimes I wish HN had a hard stop on posts that link directly to paywalled
content. Feels spammy.

~~~
simion314
Turn JS off by default and white-list websites that you trust.1

~~~
egdod
I have JS disabled, and this site says it can’t validate my access to the
article.

~~~
simion314
I don't know how to explain this. Works for me in Vivaldi with JS off

