
Researchers giving psilocybin to religious leaders (2017) - prostoalex
https://qz.com/879285/psilocybin-drug-trials-psychedelics-such-as-acid-lsd-might-not-only-make-us-more-spiritual-and-religious-they-make-us-healthier-too/
======
pmoriarty
This reminds me of the "Marsh Chapel Experiment" (aka the "Good Friday
Experiment") from 1962:

 _" Prior to the Good Friday service, graduate degree divinity student
volunteers from the Boston area were randomly divided into two groups. In a
double-blind experiment, half of the students received psilocybin, while a
control group received a large dose of niacin. Niacin produces clear
physiological changes and thus was used as an active placebo... Almost all of
the members of the experimental group reported experiencing profound religious
experiences, providing empirical support for the notion that psychedelic drugs
can facilitate religious experiences..."_[1]

Much more detail here: [2]

[1] -
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marsh_Chapel_Experiment](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marsh_Chapel_Experiment)

[2] -
[https://www.erowid.org/plants/mushrooms/mushrooms_journal2.s...](https://www.erowid.org/plants/mushrooms/mushrooms_journal2.shtml)

------
hosh
I've been keeping an eye out on this study and had hoped there were more
results, but this article hasn't said anything about that. Not sure where the
no-self part comes in, but it looks like the article title has changed.

I've been listening to a lot of Adyashanti's talks and interviews lately. He's
not saying anything substantially different from any other non-dual teacher is
saying, though I find that he is very clear when he does speak about this. One
of the things that come up is that the experience of "no-self" is different
from "unity consciousness" and "identification with witness" though those are
each awakenings and realizations someone might go through.

I wanted to note that because "no-self" is often confused with "unity
consciousness", but what's clear from Adyashanti and some of the others is
that the experience of a unity consciousness will still have a very subtle
landing space, whereas "no self" doesn't even have that subtle self-
referencing either.

Also, these people are experiencing "no-self" and "unity consciousness" as an
integral part of their daily, ordinary experience, usually while
simultaneously experiencing an individuated and relative sense of self. These
are not altered consciousness in the sense that many psychonauts might speak
of, or a one-time mystical or peak experience, and the experience itself is a
lot simpler, if impossible to put into words.

~~~
rootw0rm
The "no-self" concept you speak of is usually referred to as ego death I
believe.

------
everdev
It's great to see alternative personal development like this proposed.
Hopefully governments and doctors will find a safe way to do further research.

~~~
mindcrime
_Hopefully governments and doctors will find a safe way to do further
research._

This is how the government does research.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_MKUltra](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_MKUltra)

Thanks, but no thanks. Keep the government out of it, please.

~~~
anarazel
Yes, pre Church committee secret CIA research is really applicable to the
topic at hand.

~~~
montyf
How isn't it?

Anyway, I agree with his comment but for a different reason: government
"research" isn't historically trustworthy. Any psychedelics research sponsored
by the government, directly or indirectly, is going to end up like marijuana
research[0] and like research into alternative therapies[1]. Of course, they
will continue coming up with opposite findings for drugs that lobbyists can
profit from, like SSRI's. The FDA is able to literally pick and choose studies
that work for them[2].

[0]: [http://www.dispatch.com/news/20170319/governments-
marijuana-...](http://www.dispatch.com/news/20170319/governments-marijuana-is-
terrible-for-scientific-studies-researchers-say)

[1]: [http://www.nbcnews.com/id/31190909/ns/health-
alternative_med...](http://www.nbcnews.com/id/31190909/ns/health-
alternative_medicine/t/billion-spent-no-alternative-cures-found/) (It took 2.5
billion dollars to find out that yoga and meditation "may" help with anxiety
etc.)

[2]:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selective_serotonin_reuptake_i...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selective_serotonin_reuptake_inhibitor#Controversy)

~~~
Godel_unicode
Before throwing around accusations like this, you might want to consider the
evidence. For instance, how often has an FDA-approved drug been pulled because
it was dangerous in unknown ways vs drugs which haven't been through the FDA?
Conversely, how many home cures have been shown to be useless or even actively
harmful?

I find it interesting that you are citing the study on homeopathy in such a
gerrymandered way; first, it's not $2.5 billion just on yoga and meditation by
any reasonable interpretation. Second, the major conclusion of the study is
that virtually no holistic/homeopathic remedies have any health value above
the placebo effect. Thirdly yoga and meditation haven't been found to be
beneficial, they rather have not had conclusive results either way.

~~~
montyf
You're telling me to consider the evidence? That's funny. Let's just ignore
how the US government has been fudging studies for decades to support whatever
agendas suited them, whether it be pro-wheat industry, pro-sugar industry,
pro-pharmaceutical industry, the list goes on and on. I could spend a day
sitting here listing examples of great Uncle Sam and their "studies" and
"research". Seriously, I thought people on HN were just a little bit smarter
than this.

------
Viff
TLDR: Your brain has certain regions active during normal consciousness. Magic
mushrooms shut down some of those parts and activates others, so your brain
makes new connections to different regions and develops an altered
consciousness.

~~~
neilwilson
RTLDR: get off your face on mushies. It's like wow man.

~~~
dang
Please don't do this here.

------
nabla9
>The Tibetan Zen Buddhist monk Chogyam Trongpa

It's written Chögyam Trungpa. Trungpa was Vajrayana school Buddhist. "Tibetan
Zen Buddhism" does not exist. I'm sure there are individual Tibetans who are
Zen Buddhists, but there is no Zen tradition in Tibet. Trungpa was also
alcoholic, womanizer, sexually abused his students, cocaine user, ... and was
able to get away with it because it was all 'crazy wisdom'.

Zen and Buddhism in general is full of people like Alan Watts and Trungpa.
Both were highly intelligent, inspiring writers, and alcoholics who presented
themselves as masters.

~~~
hosh
Chris Wallis, author of _Tantra Illuminated_ had written to clarify what makes
someone a "tantric master", specifically, one is a master of _self_. I think
that is a useful distinction when you are searching for guidance.

Another way to look at it is something I've heard Adyashanti (another teacher)
spoke about in an interview on batgap.com -- someone's relationship with their
teacher is often a reflection of of their relationship with the whole of the
spiritual search, whether that be idealization or cynicism, both responses to
that searching for perfection.

~~~
nabla9
There is whole Tibetan sutra with instructions of how to have sex with
prepubescent girls. After their first menstrual cycle they become impure and
don't help monk in his spiritual journey.

If you have religion and status, you can always find ways to rationalize
fucking around as spiritual development.

I have respect for Buddhism in general and I have practiced meditation with a
teacher 20 years. I understand the need to have a teacher and the need for
guidance, but it's human nature for people to abuse others when given too much
authority.

~~~
hosh
There is also a whole Tibetan teaching that evolved from ritual cannabilism
that shares its roots with practices from India. That particular teaching
evolved to use visualizations, and the one being offered for sacrifice in
those visualization is the practitioner and not someone else. When done that
way, it's an extreme, but beautiful teaching relating to impermanence and the
Bodhisattva ideal. The lotus growing from the mud -- and that mud is very
muddy.

I don't think people outside realize just how dark of a place the Tibetan
people came from before the Buddhist Vajrayana practitioners came in to "tame"
the land gods of Tibet. There was a monastic order that attempted to bring the
Dharma (with the Tibetan king's blessing) and were hounded out. The last monk
that left told the king, he needed to bring one of the Vajrayana people. The
level of intensity of the dark and negative stuff was just that bad.

There had always been and likely, always will be the Guru syndrome. Even
sincere teachers getting themselves trapped by that. (And that was one of my
few favorite parts of the Last Jedi). It is as much as the failings of the
guru as it is people seeking for something projecting all sorts of
idealizations and failings onto their teachers. It doesn't matter whether it
is Tibetan or not. This happens with any religion or spiritual path.

One last note, something I heard from several teachers: you can be awakened
and still be an ass. You would just be very clear, realized ass.

~~~
yters
Have you ever been to a Tibetan temple? The walls are filled with detailed,
vivid drawings of their "masters" doing horrific things to them.

~~~
hosh
No I have not. I am not surprised though. Content is endless, and shadow
conntent is endless.

It sounds surprising, I think, because the Western, or perhaps popular view of
spirituality is one of idealization. Focusing excessively on Light is as
problematic as focusing excessively in Shadow.

I have a reprint of one of the mandalas to Vajrayogini on my personal altar.
Most of the imagery and iconography will evoke the reaction you described. At
the bottom is the most wrathful form of Vajrayogini, naked and all black with
fangs, an intense, fiery aura, standing on a corpse. She holds a butchering
knife in one hand, and a tantric staff (with three skulls) in the other.
Various entrails being eaten by various animals. Yet the top one depicts a
peaceful Vajrayogini, reposing in a meditational posture.

Both are Vajrayogini. What is not apparent is how any of this is an act of
compassion. The middle Vajrayogini is red and she holds a cup made from
severing the top of someone's skull. There is blood in it. How is _that_ an
act of compassion? Isn't that just a depiction of evil and corruption? And
Tibetan Buddhist will take this depiction as a yidam, ritually become this
diety/Buddha. Why would anyone do that? Why do I have that on my altar?

Vajrayogini takes the most horrific karma and spiritual poisons and drinks it.
She is called the trauma goddess for that reason. All the horror and abuses
one might experience in this life and in past lived, she takes and drinks. And
because she is a full Buddha, that karms burns and dies within her. In many
ways, it is an extreme form of empathy, yet at the same time, the Buddha
nature remains unstained.

Her two wrathful forms looks horrific because the pain and trauama she takes
on are that horrific. That is why she is depicted in those wrathful forms. She
enters fearlessly into your hell to give you the chance to awaken and to heal.

And this is why she is appealing to some people.

I have never set someone's broken bone or worked as an EMT or a nurse. Yet
when I hear stories from them, it is like this. Giving care to the person even
when really horrible things happen to them. I am not one of those Japanese
cleaners who clean a houses after someone dies, or that Austrailian woman who
clean hoarder's houses after they die. They clean away the pain, when no one
else will do it. It is like that.

Are there abuses? Yup, there are. Is it excusable? No. And yet, there is a lor
more going on than what is apparent.

------
WalterSear
The original article's title is misleading.

~~~
ghostbrainalpha
Suggested Title:

Study with small sample size suggests that brief drug-induced mystical
experiences change people over time, leading them to report better moods,
heightened altruism and forgiveness, more closeness with others, and a sense
of connection six months later

~~~
TrainedMonkey
Too long, how about "Scientist report psychoactive drugs leading to long term
positive effects".

~~~
drvdevd
In this case it should say “psilocybin” (as it now does) as there are very
particular (IMO significant) differences in its’ effects as compared to other
5ht2* agonists, such as LSD. For example it typically has about 1/4 to 1/2 the
duration of LSD which is therapeutically significant.

------
lafar6502
Priests are lucky bastards

~~~
dang
Can you please not post unsubstantive comments to Hacker News?

[https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html](https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html)

------
dsego
How about they give them antipsychotics instead?

------
jotm
I can show you the self is not an illusion - ask those people to give you all
of their possessions to someone else, the poor or some charity.

Suddenly, they'll care about their well being above others and their eternal
connection to everyone else is shattered.

~~~
westiseast
It’s mistaken (and somewhat sad!) to take a cynical attitude like that given
the implications of the research.

The most exciting part of these type of studies is the ability to take
depressive people and ‘kick’ them out of the cognitive ruts they are in.

Those cognitive ruts are often world-views, thought structures and learned
behaviours from childhood or their parents which constantly reinforce that the
sufferer is worthless or stupid or unwanted etc.

In those world views, other people are often seen in very negative light -
they’re critical, or assholes, or dangerous, or perhaps you’re so needy for
love and attention that you endlessly see other people as your savior (and
constantly make bad relationships as a result).

The idea that we just need love and kindness and selflessness and we’re all
connected maaaan - that’s a childish interpretation. As is the idea that
interconnectednesa and empathy falls apart in a realistic adult world of
possessions and basic needs.

In the context of mental illness, being able to experience connectedness and
heightened empathy might mean seeing other people for who they _really are_ ,
not who they appear to be in your distorted worldview. It might mean realizing
that other people are similar to you and you’re not alone in your struggle, or
realizing that you can give support to someone else instead of constantly
needing support from them. Sometimes breakthroughs like that take years in
therapy, but might be achieved much more quickly using mushrooms.

Hope that helps dissolve the cynicism.

~~~
jotm
Wait, so the idea is to see other people for "who they are"... but they won't
do the same. It sure can "restore faith in humanity" and yourself, but what
happens when you get hit with a dose of reality? That everyone struggles...
individually. And most people don't actually care about you. Back to
depression it is?

~~~
westiseast
> And most people don’t actually care about you

Well... yeah. I mean, imagine you had super critical parents who picked on
your every mistake as a child. Now you suffer from social anxiety and feel
intense shame and fear in public because you think everyone is constantly
criticizing you and talking about you.

Being able to relax and be yourself knowing that most people won’t care either
way is a huge step forward.

