
Snowden calls on France’s Macron to grant him asylum - mc32
https://www.apnews.com/ce77f2972da445b2aae79a34c4437eb6
======
raxxorrax
There is no way any European government is strong enough to grant it. Still,
important to rub this fact in their face regularly, since many base themselves
solely on appearances.

I hope we see more people like Snowden, even if that kind of work comes at
huge costs. Overwhelming parts of the press failed in covering this topic too.

~~~
mcv
I very strongly want to believe this is not true. European governments can
take their own decisions on issues like this, and can't isolate a single EU
country for sanctions of whatever sort.

But most EU countries tend to have a very strong separation between the
government and the judiciary, so even if the government supports asylum for
Snowden, the judiciary might decide to honor an American extradition request.
Although many EU countries don't extradite when there's a risk of death
penalty, unfair trial, torture, or anything like that.

~~~
gizmo686
Do any of those extradition exceptions apply in this case.

The only one I have ever heard allaged in this case is "unfair trial". But the
details of that are: 'US law does not have an exception that covers Snowden's
actions".

I happen to agree that the US should have some form of public interest
exception, but as a legal arguement it doesn't make sense. No one would argue
that a murderer cannot get a fair trial because there is no victim annoyed me
exception.

~~~
Bartweiss
At least four exceptions could be invoked.

1\. Unacceptable punishment. This could certainly be invoked, since Snowden
faces Espionage Act charges. The current charges don't carry the death
penalty, but the possibility of further charges might be raised. But as with
Assange, it wouldn't bar extradition; the US simply agrees not to seek the
death penalty and then the process continues. Solitary confinement could also
arise here.

2\. Lack of dual criminality: the Espionage Act is extraordinarily broad, and
I don't know whether France's espionage/treason laws are comparable. But since
Snowden faces theft and computer charges which have clear dual criminality, I
don't know how this would proceed. The US _might_ have to agree not to pursue
Espionage Act charges, but you'd have to ask a lawyer.

3\. Unfair trial: this is subjective, and not covered by the US/France
extradition treaty. The European Court of Human Rights has stated that a
merely unfair trial is not a bar, and requires a "flagrant violation of human
rights", but France could potentially apply a narrower standard. And while
unfair trial isn't a basis to reject a US extradition, it is a basis to grant
asylum, which would take legal precedence.

There _is_ a good candidate here: the Espionage Act bars any question of
whether the information was justifiably secret, bars defendants from
introducing key evidence in their defense, bars the defendant from discussing
their intent, and doesn't require proof of real or even _potential_ harm to
convict. France could argue that Snowden faces conviction over harm which was
both unintended _and impossible_ in the course of exposing an illegal action.

Of course, this would again be moot if the Espionage Act charges were dropped
(although not if asylum was granted first). And it could be tough both legally
and politically depending on how France's most secretive prosecutions are
structured.

4\. Politically motivated charges: this both grounds for asylum and a treaty
bar to US/French extradition. It's also incredibly subjective, so it certainly
_could_ be invoked by a French court.

Snowden's actions don't fall under any of the explicit categories for which
political extraditions _are_ required (those are things like attacking
diplomats). The US could argue they fall under the "serious harm" clause, but
that's neither clearcut not an actual requirement to extradite. (It merely
must be taken into account by the surrendering nation.)

France isn't terribly _likely_ to claim this, since the programs and agencies
Snowden exposed generally align with French intelligence interests. But a
court probably wouldn't have much trouble justifying the finding: Snowden
exposed embarrassing actions like spying on foreign heads of state (including
France!), US judges have said some of the exposed programs are probably
unconstitutional, and he contradicted official testimony to Congress. Combined
with a charge that explicitly excludes defenses of public interest, government
error, or harmless action, it would be easy to argue the US is using the trial
to prevent scrutiny of political misbehavior.

None of that is going to _happen_ , obviously, and I'm not taking a stance
here on whether it would be correct. But there's at least one extradition bar
which could be easily invoked and justified if someone decided to do so.

~~~
mcv
This whole discussion has made me wonder how someone like Roman Polanski has
managed to evade extradition for so long. That sounds like it should have been
a much more cleat cut case for extradition. There was an extradition case in
Switzerland at some point. Would Snowden be safer there?

~~~
Bartweiss
That's a good question, since it's clearly not a political case. Some quick
reading says there are two factors, neither likely to apply to Snowden.

France has refused to extradite Polanski because he's a French/Polish citizen,
and neither country is obligated to extradite citizens. (If the refusal is
purely citizenship-based, they're required to refer the person for domestic
prosecution on request. It's not clear to me whether this applied or
happened.)

Poland and Switzerland were both open to extradition (Poland declined to apply
the citizenship exemption), but courts in both countries refused over issues
with Polanski's trial and prospective sentence.

Polanski's case did start in the US. His attorney arranged an extremely
lenient plea bargain of 5/6 charges dropped and 90 days psychiatric
evaluation, which he accepted when he was released from prison after 42 days.
After that, things get very messy. The exact terms of the bargain were unclear
(90 days or time served). The original judge has been accused of misconduct.
Subsequent judges have made legally-worrying comments like threatening to
delay sentencing to increase time in jail.

Switzerland rejected Polanski's extradition over ambiguity between "90 days"
or "time served", and the USA's failure to provide clarifying records. The
rationale was that the judge had potentially committed to time served, and
extradition isn't available after a punishment (probation doesn't count) is
completed.

Poland rejected extradition over the behavior from the original judge and
prosecutors, plus the behavior of subsequent judges and alleged destruction of
records.

"Unfair trial" is a possible defense for Snowden, and Switzerland would
probably be one of the safer places in Europe for him. But a _speculative_
claim of an unfair trial is quite a bit bolder than the Polanski decisions,
which hinged on claims of actual misconduct during a trial.

------
ivanhoe
Strange idea, considering what France and other EU countries did not so long
ago to Ecuadorian diplomatic plane suspected to carry Snowden. Also a big
problem for Snowden, because even if granted asylum it's highly unlikely that
US would let him get to France. Lots of NATO countries in between to fly over.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evo_Morales_grounding_incident](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evo_Morales_grounding_incident)

~~~
ineedasername
That just means they'd have to charter a special flight that used only
Russian, International, and French airspace.

------
exabrial
I doubt Russia will let him leave.

------
empath75
Hasn't Russia already granted him asylum?

~~~
amalcon
There are a number of reasons that he might prefer not to live in Russia. An
example obvious political reason: Russia has a lot of the same issues he
criticizes in the US. He'd probably like to safely criticize Russia for these
things as well. An example obvious personal reason: France is a much nicer
country to live in (due to the weather if nothing else).

~~~
meitham
He would be safer though in Russia. It is far easier for the CIA to kidnap him
illegally out of France, if they fail to extradite him legally. France might
protest such an event a lot but it will unlikely lead to a military
confrontation. The US would never likely do this in Russia.

~~~
johnchristopher
What would be the consequences of the US illegally deporting Snowden from
France like that? What would be printed in the newspapers?

~~~
jessaustin
"Snowden goes missing while hiking in Alps; assumed to be buried in glacier
crevasse"

~~~
AstralStorm
Presuming he does something stupid like that, and this cover would ruin US
goal of making an example.

~~~
jessaustin
He wouldn't have to choose to go hiking, or even venture within 100 km of the
mountains, in order for that headline to be reported.

USA has plenty of whistleblower examples anyway. We've tortured Chelsea
Manning for years. Others who have been punished, to varying degrees, include
Bill Binney, Reality Winner, and John Kiriakou. Presumably there are others of
whom we're not aware. These people have done really small things to rouse the
ire of the TLAs. How could they punish Snowden in a proportional fashion,
anyway?

------
chiefalchemist
IDK, of all the choices France feels like an odd one. Is there some particular
law(s) that would favor France over other countries?

What about Cuba? It's certainly not Russia, and it's unlikely the USA and Cuba
will kiss and make up any time soon.

Or is this a PR stunt of sorts to sell more books? Note: I'm in favor of ES
selling more books as I wish more people were aware of this issue.

------
humble_engineer
What is Snowden's problem with Russia? Its a beautiful country, the people
there revere him as a hero, he's employed because of his talents as an
engineer. The women there are beautiful, the common person is sincere and
generous. Maybe he is constantly being harassed by Russian intelligence?

------
dennisgorelik
Why would Trump administration want to prosecute Snowden?

~~~
Simulacra
Besides the fact that he committed treason?

~~~
dennisgorelik
Snowden leaks could have hurt Obama administration, but these leaks did NOT
hurt Trump administration.

------
hos234
He should appeal to Trump. Pretty sure Trump would enjoy trolling the Left
forever about it.

~~~
PorterDuff
"He should appeal to Trump. Pretty sure Trump would enjoy trolling the Left
forever about it."

That's an interesting notion. Perhaps have Trump pardon him. Never gonna
happen given who actually runs government.

There are a ton of people who are pro-Snowden who are anti-Trump so I do like
the idea of watching the uproar. Honestly, I think that kind of paradox is
good for peoples' minds.

~~~
nailer
They just won't discuss it. Think of how little reporting this received a few
weeks ago:
[https://apnews.com/cdda0a1c21124c4c8a2d68790d99bdab](https://apnews.com/cdda0a1c21124c4c8a2d68790d99bdab)

------
forgitude
It’s not difficult to imagine that criminals wised up from the revelations of
Edward Snowden. It’s not difficult to imagine that such data would be highly
classified despite the programs’ existence being disclosed by Edward Snowden.
If that’s the case, then a secret military trial is justified.

------
forgitude
I posted my opinion that taking him out is an option. It was flagged and then
removed entirely.

Hacker News should reconsider allowing me, an American citizen, to suggest
that an international fugitive who admits to committing treason and refuses to
come home should be taken out.

Snowden’s actions are an ongoing act of war against the United States. It is
lawful to consider taking him out, in my opinion. I should be allowed a voice
to express that view on hn, without concern about censorship, at least in this
case.

This comment shouldn’t be censored. Please don’t flag it, moderators. Thanks.

Edit: if you’re going to downvote, at least please provide a brief
explanation.

~~~
ryacko
It is unpopular to express opinions that violate the tenets instilled in every
American in their civics / social sciences classes in high school.

Snowden had the same opinion though: [https://arstechnica.com/tech-
policy/2013/06/exclusive-in-200...](https://arstechnica.com/tech-
policy/2013/06/exclusive-in-2009-ed-snowden-said-leakers-should-be-shot-then-
he-became-one/3/)

I’m of the opinion though that Manning and Snowden leaked under orders from
the CIA. Manning wanted assistance from Assange to a degree that would remove
any protections Assange would have as a third party, and it is unlikely for
Snowden to have obtained such a wide range of documents (allegedly scraping
Intellipedia for backup) unless his superiors were totally unobservant.

To criticize the actions of either Manning or Snowden would be to criticize
the US government.

~~~
forgitude
Indeed, one can interpret the posts of “Q” to support this theory. Going in
that direction of that conspiracy theory, however, it appears that the CIA was
cleaned out and taken back (or is/was in the process of being taken back) with
the appointment of Haspel.

Of note is an apparent exchange between “Q” and @snowden on Twitter, where it
appeared that “Q” was able to compel @snowden to share a photo of someone from
the Middle East while under duress or on the move. The evidence to support
this is the garbled tweets from @snowden in response to “Q”’s demand,
suggesting that Snowden really was on the move and being hunted, and under
pressure to disclose the info.

Also of note was “Q” saying to @snowden (at the time) “we can take you
anytime” which certainly was ambiguous regarding whether it meant kill, or
capture. (“Take you out” would have left zero ambiguity). “Take you anytime”
implied the possibility of a kill, at the least.

~~~
ryacko
Qanon is just a parody of widespread political sentiments. Obviously no one
with a Q clearance (which apparently includes Podesta) is a decent person.

The actions of various people acting as a result of the Qanon theories is
potentially the result of other craziness that no one would acknowledge. It
isn’t unthinkable that the person who shot the head of the Gambino crime
family was in some fashion harmed by the Gambinos.

I hope the FBI agents doing full time surveillance on the Gambino head spat
out their coffee when they saw what happened.

Edit: If Snowden returns to the US, I wonder if he would become another Lee
Harvey Oswald. He did defect twice.

~~~
forgitude
Its unclear if QAnon is (was — 8chan is gone) someone close to Trump. It
wasn’t necessarily a parody.

Indeed, Anthony Comello, the man who murdered Gambino boss Frank Cali
allegedly believed that he had “protection” from Trump. However, this could
just be a creative defense derived after-the-fact, supported by Mr. Comello’s
interest in the QAnon movement.

The murder was apparently related to some dispute about dating Cali’s
daughter.

~~~
ryacko
“I know”

“I understand”

“I’m getting ice cream.”

Knowledge is only tested by hypotheses that result in expected results.

~~~
forgitude
If you expect chaos and instead get an unexpected focused result, there could
be something to learn about the nature of the mind’s ability to prevent brain
freeze simply by subconsciously regulating ice cream intake velocity. The
observation of enigmatic coincidences is irrelevant fodder, unless there’s
sufficient reason to believe otherwise.

