
It's the Umami – Why the Truth About MSG is So Easy to Swallow - DanBC
http://blogs.smithsonianmag.com/food/2013/11/its-the-umami-stupid-why-the-truth-about-msg-is-so-easy-to-swallow/
======
dsrguru
This article is both accurate and highly misleading. The author is correct
that there is very little reliable evidence that links glutamic acid and/or
glutamate to health problems. The backlash against MSG as a result of the
"Chinese Restaurant Syndrome" craze, was not rooted in scientific inquiry.

However, MSG is not just a source for glutamate like seaweed and tomatoes are.
MSG is the sodium salt of glutamic acid and contains not just glutamate but
also sodium ions. Having 2000mg of natural glutamate should be harmless.
Having enough MSG to give you 2000mg of glutamate means you're getting a shit
ton of sodium. That's not good for you, especially if you're one of the many
people for whom excess sodium intake adversely affects your blood pressure. So
while MSG is presumably no worse than NaCl (and is perhaps better in that the
umami flavor means you don't have to use as much sodium to get an equally rich
taste), to say that MSG is totally harmless without even mentioning sodium and
hypertension is ridiculous. Even in terms of short term effects, I've had
plenty of MSG-free hot and sour soups that made my head itch. Not from MSG but
from thousands of mg of sodium found in their gratuitously added soy sauce and
table salt.

~~~
espeed
It's not the sodium, it's the glutamate (the "G" in MSG).

Glutamate is an excitotoxin, and it's an additive in almost all processed
foods, in various forms with many different names
([http://www.truthinlabeling.org/hiddensources.html](http://www.truthinlabeling.org/hiddensources.html)).

Excitotoxicity is the "pathological process by which nerve cells are damaged
and killed by excessive stimulation by neurotransmitters such as glutamate and
similar substances"
([https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Excitotoxicity](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Excitotoxicity)).

As the article says, when glutamate is consumed naturally, it is intertwined
with fiber and other chemicals that regulate its uptake; however, glutamate
additives are not and thus flood your body with glutamate, which can overload
your blood-brain barrier
([https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blood%E2%80%93brain_barrier](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blood%E2%80%93brain_barrier))
and disrupt the delicate balance.

This is akin to Dr. Lustig's
([https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Lustig](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Lustig))
findings on sugar (fructose): Eating whole fruits is fine because you're
consuming fiber with the fructose (nature provides the antidote), but fruit
juice is all fructose and no fiber so your body is flooded with fructose,
which is toxic
([http://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/17/magazine/mag-17Sugar-t.htm...](http://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/17/magazine/mag-17Sugar-t.html?_r=0)).

~~~
ricardobeat
But nobody eats MSG by itself like fruit juice, won't mixing it to food that
contains fiber and 'other chemicals' have the same effect?

~~~
espeed
No, because adding extra glutamate means the ratio of glutamate will be higher
than the counterbalance.

~~~
ricardobeat
That went over my head. What do you mean?

When making a risotto I might use 100g of parmesan cheese, which can amount to
~8g of MSG according to the internets, plus eat tomatoes on the side. That's
the equivalent of 12g of Ajinomoto, I can't imagine adding that much to _any_
dish.

------
mahranch
The MSG allergy is a myth, plain and simple. There have been plenty of
scientific research studies done on the substance, and they found absolutely
nothing. I don't know why this myth has persisted so long in popular culture.
I compare it to people who rave about homeopathy. Any (perceived) effect is
either anecdotal or placebo in nature.

What most people don't know, is that MSG occurs naturally in many foods. Beef,
Chicken, Spinach, Tomatoes, etc... If you don't get an MSG allergy when you
eat those foods, you don't have an MSG allergy. Source:
[http://zidbits.com/2010/12/is-the-msg-allergy-a-
myth/](http://zidbits.com/2010/12/is-the-msg-allergy-a-myth/)

~~~
Aloisius
Uh. I actually have an MSG sensitivity which took me forever to figure out
what it was. For decades I'd occasionally be eating in a restaurant and my
lips, tongue and/or back of my throat would go numb. It wasn't until I bought
MSG and started putting it on pretty much everything in larger doses that I
realized it was the culprit.

I can reproduce it pretty easily by simply putting nothing but MSG on my
tongue. It takes a good bit to do it however and seems to cause me no other
problems so I tend not to worry about it, but it is clearly some kind of
sensitivity or allergy which is easily reproducible and not the slightest bit
vague (lips going numb is a pretty easily identifiable sensation). Claiming it
is all completely made up seems a bit premature.

~~~
ricardobeat
It is said that the human body itself produces up to 50g of glutamate _every
day_ ; an allergy to it should result in much more terrible effects than
superficial numbness. Someone already posted a longer explanation:
[http://www.metafilter.com/131105/Dorito-
Powder#5147903](http://www.metafilter.com/131105/Dorito-Powder#5147903)

~~~
ars
> produces up to 50g of glutamate every day

But not as free glutamic acid, and that makes a HUGE difference.

~~~
brianleb
Really? Please observe the differences between
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:L-Glutamate_Structural_Fo...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:L-Glutamate_Structural_Formulae.png)
and
[https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/ff/Glutamin...](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/ff/Glutamins%C3%A4ure_-
_Glutamic_acid.svg) . The only difference is the relocation of hydrogen ions,
which is a normal and expected occurrence of all molecules in the presence of
other molecules. The equilibrium of these different forms of the same molecule
is mediated by pH, among other things. They are in fact the same molecule. The
word "acid" only means that it likes to give up a hydrogen ion when given the
opportunity.

~~~
ars
You understood me in reverse.

In the body the glutamate (acid or not) is bound up with other things, i.e.
not free.

I said acid because my understanding was the MSG disassociates from the sodium
once ingested.

~~~
tptacek
I read some glutamate metabolism papers last night and I don't think this is
likely to be true at all. I think it's a manifestation of the naturalist
fallacy: you believe the "free glutamic acid" released by the dissolution of
MSG to be artificial and are trying to rationalize a distinction for the
glutamates that the body produces that doesn't exist.

In reality, glutamic acid isn't simply an amino acid that happens to be
present in the human body. It is fundamental to the way our bodies work; it's
required for nitrogen metabolism! Glutamate toxicity seems very unlikely.

~~~
ars
> ... naturalist fallacy: you believe ... distinction ...that doesn't exist.

I believe no such thing.

I don't know what you read, but in the body glutamic acid doesn't just float
around randomly, it's carefully stored near the nerves that need it. Excess
glutamic acid where it doesn't belong causes nerve problems.

It's like the difference between sucrose and starch. Chemically they are the
same, but the effects are very different because one needs more digestion than
the other.

~~~
tptacek
Your body can't metabolize nitrogen without glutamic acid. It's part of how
you, and I think maybe all the rest of your siblings in phylum chordata, build
proteins. I don't see a lot of reason to believe that it causes "nerve
problems" in the human body, but would welcome a citation to the literature
that shows that.

It gets worse for your argument. Here's a paper that demonstrates that very
large oral doses of MSG in both mice and humans don't even significantly raise
the plasma concentration of glutamates.

[http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3136011/](http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3136011/)

This should probably be unsurprising. Your body is designed to deal with
consumption of glutamates; in fact, even though it's so vital to your system
that you produce it yourself, humans get most of their glutamic acid from
dietary sources. Hypersensitivity to dietary glutamate would be maladaptive.

The idea that your body has carefully delineated locations where it's safe to
have glutamic acid (probably not coincidentally in the nervous system, the
most complex part of the body), and that ingesting "artificial" sources of
glutamic acid throws that out of whack, is again I think a manifestation of
the naturalistic fallacy.

------
devindotcom
There was a long thread at metafilter about MSG fairly recently, and I found
this comment from a biochemist to be a really good, straightforward primer on
what exactly MSG is and how it is metabolized:

[http://www.metafilter.com/131105/Dorito-
Powder#5147903](http://www.metafilter.com/131105/Dorito-Powder#5147903)

------
bookface
Sorry if I'm being insensitive, but how is Chinese Restaurant Syndrome
"absurdly racist"? If people were having health problems as a consequence of
eating corned beef, I would, as a Jew, have no problem with that condition
being called "Jewish Deli Syndrome".

~~~
michh
A better analogy would be to say losing all your money due to corrupt and
greedy bankers is "Jewish Banker Syndrome". Still not offensive?

~~~
andybak
A marvellous false analogy.

~~~
michh
Really?

Evil bankers exist of lots of ethnicities and faiths but lots of people do
(often but not always subconsciously) link greedy bankers and jewish people.

Just like using unhealthy or even dangerous additives is often linked to
Chinese cuisine even though they're used just as much in tons of other
cuisines as well.

Equating an existent stereotype with one which doesn't actually exist and
saying "it's not that bad, I wouldn't be offended by that" is the false
analogy. Because then it doesn't have the personal impact a prejudice or
misconception you've actually been exposed to has.

A white person might say that if someone joked "all white people are lazy",
they wouldn't be offended so a black or latino person shouldn't either. A
black person is much more likely to be offended by "all black people are lazy"
because that's something that's actually rooted in societal prejudices. Change
it to "all white people are racist" and suddenly by their defensive tone,
you'll note that you've hit a nerve and they're actually uncomfortable and/or
offended.

~~~
bookface
I didn't originally see the connection between MSG and Chinese food as coming
from a place of racism, but you might be right. I'm still not so sure though.
If somebody said to you "I got food poisoning from a Chinese restaurant last
night", would you say "That's racist! An Italian restaurant could have just as
easily given you food poisoning."?

It's pointless to try to tell people what is and isn't offensive. Normally, I
err on the side of thinking that if somebody is offended, they must have
reason to be and I should be sensitive to that, but in this case I had no idea
what racism the author was referring to.

~~~
michh
Perhaps the stereotype of Chinese restaurants specifically being
untrustworthy/unhealthy/unhygienic (i.e. Chinese chefs don't care about their
customers / they're not up to our western standards) isn't universal, but it
definitely exists in some parts of the world. MSG is an example of that,
another one is the myth that you might just be eating cat or dog being
advertised as something different (also often applied to Korean food in a
similarly racist way).

Not saying it's high on the prioritised list of racist tropes we need to be
fighting, but yeah, it's there.

------
shirro
It isn't the MSG that will kill you. MSG, sugar and salt are all naturally
occurring in health food and the key is moderation and balance.

The problem is we have turned something which is harmless in moderation into a
massive food business build on a model of addiction.

The thing that will make you unhealthy is highly processed food devoid of
nutrition that is made entirely of starch, vegetable oil, sugar, salt and MSG
that has replaced a healthy diet.

If you eat fresh fruit, vegetables and a moderate amount of meat, cooked
healthfully and sprinkle a bit of seasoning on it for flavour you will likely
be no worse off than consuming the healthy stuff without seasoning. Though if
you use good ingredients you probably don't need the extra refined product.
There are plenty of natural ingredients rich in glutamate.

------
tytso
This reminds me about people who are fanatical about avoiding nitrates in
Bacon, not realizing that the "natural" celery salt added to Bacon means that
actually the expensive bacon sold in Whole Foods actually has more nitrates
than conventional bacon. It's just "natural" nitrate, so it must be ok.....

------
jonknee
I use MSG in cooking and it's a great way to lower salt while dramatically
increasing flavor. It doesn't make bad food magically good, but it makes good
food great. Especially good in soups and stews. I bought a bulk container in
the ethnic food aisle of a grocery and it has lasted a couple of years and is
now just about gone. It's amazing how much a little pinch goes.

Amazon has a 1LB bag available for $6.50 and is Prime eligible:
[http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B001OCP02Q/ref=as_li_ss_tl?...](http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B001OCP02Q/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=B001OCP02Q&linkCode=as2&tag=prsboos)

~~~
ars
> I use MSG in cooking and it's a great way to lower salt

It might lower salt a bit, but it's hardly a great way, the S stands for
sodium, which is exactly what you want to avoid. Perhaps the trade off is
worth it if you can use less, but you need to calculate it carefully.

~~~
eropple
MSG has something like a third of the sodium content of an equivalent volume
of salt.

~~~
ars
Is volume the right way to measure this? To provide equivalent flavor you use
equal volume of salt or MSG?

~~~
eropple
In my experience, you use a lot less MSG. I'll use a relatively large quantity
of kosher salt where a little pinch of MSG is sufficient.

------
ginko
One pet peeve of mine is foods that advertise to be MSG-free and then contain
yeast extract as an ingredient.

Yeast extract contains MSG, but it also leaves an unpleasant aftertaste in the
mouth for hours.

------
coldcode
If you think MSG is fine, try eating a tablespoon of it with nothing else.

Then another time try eating a bunch of mushrooms or similar by themselves
with a similar quantity.

Likely not the same feeling. Digestion and absorption of food changes with how
you consume it. Eating a sweet potato or a bunch of sugar doesn't hit the
bloodstream the same way.

In my teens and twenties I found I got migraine headaches after eating certain
foods; with a little experimentation I found foods (all kinds, not just
Chinese) containing added MSG gave me a headache within 2-4 hours. Eliminating
those foods eliminated the headaches. Later in life I found I was less
effected though with sufficient quantities I could still get one. It was
pretty clear the only food that affected me this way had MSG in it. Most
people seem not to be affected.

Personally I don't mind if people add it to foods as long as it's labeled
honestly so I can choose to avoid it. No different than with peanut allergies
or sodium content or trans-fats. Adding yeast extract or hydrolyzed vegetable
protein (proteins broken down into amino salts including the glutamate) to
foods to avoid mentioning you did it for the MSG is the only thing that bugs
me. It's like saying a food is low-salt because you added Natural Ocean Water
instead of salt.

~~~
ahoge
> _If you think MSG is fine, try eating a tablespoon of it with nothing else._

If you think salt is fine, try eating 10 tablespoons of it with nothing else.

------
philliphaydon
In New Zealand we were always taught that MSG was bad, until they did an
actual study on it and decided that 0.01% of the population has an allergic
reaction to MSG that causes Migraines, Vomiting, etc.

Ever since, no one in NZ gives a shit about MSG now. Seems Australia is still
really anal about it.

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monosodium_glutamate](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monosodium_glutamate)

"Australia and New Zealand[edit] Food Standards Australia New Zealand[29]
(FSANZ) cites "overwhelming evidence from a large number of scientific
studies" to explicitly deny any link between MSG and "serious adverse
reactions" or "long-lasting effects", declaring MSG "safe for the general
population". It does, however, describe that in less than 1% of the
population, sensitive individuals may experience "transient" side effects such
as "headache, numbness/tingling, flushing, muscle tightness, and generalised
weakness" to a large amount of MSG taken in a single meal. People who consider
themselves sensitive to MSG are encouraged to confirm this through an
appropriate clinical assessment. Standard 1.2.4 of the Australia and New
Zealand Food Standards Code requires the presence of MSG as a food additive to
be labeled in packaged foods. The label must bear the food additive class name
(e.g., flavour enhancer), followed by either the name of the food additive,
MSG or its International Numbering System (INS) number, 621.[30]"

In NZ - no one cares

In Aus - everyones like "ZOMG MSG, BAD FOR YOU" and try to avoid it.

Food in NZ is way better than Australia. (Australians don't know how to cook
steak)

~~~
chad_oliver
Be careful about making your generalisations too broad. I live in New Zealand,
and would have said that everyone in New Zealand thinks that MSG is ZOMG BAD
FOR YOU. I suspect that each of us can only speak for our own social group.

That said, that you for your information about MSG. I wasn't aware that FSANZ
had declared it to be effectively harmless.

~~~
philliphaydon
I'm only basing it on experience, in my late teens no one seemed to care for
MSG anymore, I remember people joking about it saying stuff like "who cares if
it does turn out to be bad, it makes food taste SOOO much better"

I moved to Australia to live for 5 years and I remember being at work in
Sydney and people saying "Oh I'm not eating that, its probably full of MSG"
and I would say its not bad for you and they are like "well every study
disagrees with you..." and if you mention FSANZ declaring it harmless they are
like "oh whats that?".

I live in Singapore now, no doubt everything has MSG, but ZOMG I LOVE FOOD
HERE! :D

------
binarymax
I've heard that the sickness associated with MSG is more likely due to
ingesting old rice.

If you want to get glutamates in your food, when cooking with meat proteins,
add mushrooms, seaweed, or even a single prawn or anchovy.

~~~
gwern
> I've heard that the sickness associated with MSG is more likely due to
> ingesting old rice.

Yes, I remember there being a British, I think, study in 2011 or 2012 that
bought samples of cooked rice from various oriental food sellers and found
that some were contaminated (moist warm food left out for hours); the
reasoning is that when people report sickness or allergy to the MSG that
oriental food in the West is notoriously prepared with, they're actually
having issues with the rice.

~~~
scarmig
Huh, is this bad? I typically cook enough rice in a rice cooker for two days
and leave it out and haven't had any adverse symptoms...

~~~
djeikyb
It's considered a dangerous practice. The general rule is food has four hours
outside of its proper storage environment before it must be thrown away. Eg,
leave the milk on the counter for an hour, put it back in the fridge, leave it
out another three hours, and now you should throw it out. I don't have a link,
but I'm citing ServSafe, a program that nationally certifies people for food
safety (targeted to federal and state requirements for food service).

You might also consider the ambient temp of your kitchen. Pro kitchens run
several hours a day, staying fairly warm the whole time (might have several
ovens, tens of burners, and other hot equipment running throughout the day).
Your kitchen, even with the rice cooker going, might stay fairly cool, and so
bad bacteria has less time to grow.

Food safety is also talked about in terms of risk to different groups. Young
children, pregnant mothers, and old adults are at higher risk than younger
adults.

~~~
sk5t
Two hours between 39F-140F is the official limit. This may be a bit
conservative depending on one's consitution, gut flora, etc. (I've gone almost
20 years without losing my lunch, eating at hundreds of restaurants from
spotless to quite dodgy over that period, so who knows...)

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danger_zone_(food_safety)](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danger_zone_\(food_safety\))

------
etler
Also, your body is actually better at processing MSG than salt, so
supplementing your food with MSG can allow you to get good flavor with a
considerable salt reduction.

~~~
r0h1n
> your body is actually better at processing MSG than salt

A citation or source would be much appreciated.

~~~
etler
Sorry about that, from the wikipedia page on MSG:

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monosodium_glutamate#Safety](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monosodium_glutamate#Safety)

The oral lethal dose to 50% of subjects (LD50) is between 15 to 18 g/kg body
weight in rats and mice respectively, five times greater than the LD50 of salt
(3 g/kg in rats).

Which references:

[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10736380](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10736380)

~~~
r0h1n
You neglected to mention the very next line after the one you quote:

 _> > Therefore, the intake of MSG as a food additive and the natural level of
glutamic acid in foods do not represent a toxicological concern in humans._

~~~
etler
I didn't think it was relevant, as my assertion was just that it was easier on
your body than salt, but thanks for pulling that out if you think it will
help.

~~~
mbreese
Differences in LD50 does not directly imply that one is easier on your body to
absorb than the other... It says that one will kill you faster, by eating
absurdly large amounts.

------
ahoge
> _Would you use these crystals in your kitchen if they were called “super
> delicious umami crystals?”_

I use those crystals in my kitchen and they are labelled "monosodium
glutamate" (Ajinomoto). A pound of that easily lasts me 2 years. You only need
a dash here and there (and only if it isn't umami on its own).

I also eat/use Parmesan, Dashi, tomatoes, and so forth.

------
droopyEyelids
My qualm with MSG doesn't involve its health effects, but the fact that MSG
makes telling the difference between good food and crap far more difficult.

If you'd like to see a demonstration of what I mean, boil a pound of dried
beans, and add some MSG. I find you'll eat the otherwise unflavored, bland
beans with the same mechanical compulsion as a bag of potato chips. In that
way MSG spoils the sport of preparing delicious food.

That should also raise the issue of portion control and satiety in your mind.
If you're reading this, I assume you're more concerned with maintaining a
steady weight than tricking your body into desiring greater quantities of
food. MSG'll thwart you there, and unfortunately it's usually used on foods
that are already pure starch and fat rather than nutritious fare.

~~~
vertis
That could also be a good thing though. Eating all of those beans vs eating
fatty salty potato chips.

------
elbii
Different rates of uptake. That's the difference. That's why eating a box of
cherry tomatoes and a bowl of ramen have drastically different effects on your
sense of well-being.

At the very least, people should be made aware whether it's in certain foods.
Then they can choose what's best for them.

Personally, MSG bedrocks me. I have to take a sick day off work in some cases
after eating an MSG-laden meal. I've developed the skill to taste it now,
after a brief tour through Asia. So I guess I can manage.

The surest bet is just to eat natural. What have humans been eating for the
past 2,3, 10 million years? Please, give me a plentiful variation of all that.

But this practice of deeming artificial foods "safe" for consumption after a
few year's testing reeks of greedy arrogance.

~~~
tptacek
That notion has been studied and refuted. Give a mouse, or a person, a high
oral dose of MSG, and their plasma levels of glutamate are not significantly
changed.

------
Camillo
I still think "umami" looks out of place next to the other basic taste words.
All the others come in adjective/noun pairs: sweet/sweetness, salty/saltiness,
etc. Where's the adjective for "umami"? "Umami" again? "Umami-tasting"? It
doesn't work well (and importing the Japanese adjective "umai" would make
things worse, not better).

Instead, I highly prefer the adjective sapid with its corresponding noun
sapidity. Sweet, sour, salty, bitter, sapid. Sweetness, sourness, saltiness,
bitterness, sapidity. Much better.

~~~
21echoes
probably because it's a japanese word and the rest are english?

~~~
downer99
It seems strange that there wouldn't be an English word to describe what MSG
tastes like.

In general, I think MSG simply tastes salty, even though I understand and
agree that it doesn't precisely taste like a salt.

MSG doesn't have a flavor unfamiliar to western cuisine. Chicken soup has
flavors that fall within the realm of MSG (even without the MSG found in
canned soups). Gravies too.

~~~
21echoes
"savory" i think is the english term normally used

------
coopaq
You know what? This generalization of what is good and bad for you - is just a
generalization to find a common food product which is easily mass producible
and consumable by the entire planetary populace. However, just as shirts are
tailored, I believe we may be entering an age of tailored foods for 7 billion
+ individuals. MSG can depend on who you are, how old, what else do you eat,
are you on a plane. We will get there. Quick! Somebody make an app and Hadoop
it.

------
hristov
I really do not like these articles that say "science says not to worry, you
must be a very stupid and uneducated person to be worried about this." Any
honest scientist will tell you that science does not know exactly how the
human body processes food and there is no model which will exactly predict the
effects of the human body ingesting a certain food.

Saying that the experimental results are mixed does not make me feel better.
Experimenting with humans is very difficult, and certain types of experiments
are downright impossible. Thus, effects of foods that do are not immediate and
drastic are very hard to determine in human experiments.

Think about a food that we now know is very dangerous: trans fats. Humans had
been eating trans fats for about 80 years when they were definitely found to
cause heart attacks. Only then there was enough data to make a definite
connection. And while there were some scientific articles that suggested a
connection in the 60's someone could always say "there is no definite proof."
Many people died of heart attacks before the statistics became such that a
connection was obvious.

Then there is the tendency of people to wrongly assume that compounds that are
kind of similar will have the identical effect on the body. Thus, for a long
time carbohydrates were all bunched together because they were very similar
molecules. People would often say that carbohydrates cannot be bad for you
because humans have been eating rice and wheat for centuries without negative
effects. But it turned out that fructose is a little different than other
carbohydrates and it can be bad for you.

And then there is the fact that the same thing can be benign or very dangerous
depending on what form it is in. Thus, fructose is absolutely benign when
eaten as part of a fruit or vegetable, but quite harmful when eaten in a
refined sugar or high fructose corn syrup form.

So I am very very suspicious of any food additives. The only rational decision
for a human being is to eat the type of foods humans have eaten for tens of
thousands of years before and for which our bodies have evolved. Maybe MSG is
benign. Or maybe it is actually bad for you. I would prefer not to become one
of those statistics that allows scientists to prove many years from now that
MSG is indeed bad for you.

MSG is especially worrying because there are some studies that show negative
effects of MSG and the fact that other studies show no effects does not quite
negate these. Furthermore, I myself feel negative effects when eating certain
foods that I suspect of containing MSG.

~~~
mahranch
" _MSG is especially worrying because there are some studies that show
negative effects of MSG_ "

Have you read the actual studies? There are no "mixed" studies, they're all
conclusive. One of the biggest studies done was a decade long and found
absolutely _nothing_.

Sources:

[http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1365-2222.2009....](http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1365-2222.2009.03221.x/abstract)

[http://www.livestrong.com/article/408512-neurological-
effect...](http://www.livestrong.com/article/408512-neurological-effect-of-
monosodium-glutamate/)

[http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1P3-52156839.html](http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1P3-52156839.html)

~~~
hristov
Did you read the article this discussion is attached to? It said in part:

"Initially, researchers had success proving both the short-term and long-term
dangers of MSG: mice injected with the additive showed signs of brain lesions,
and humans fed 3 grams of MSG per 200 ml of soup presented symptoms congruent
with “Chinese Restaurant Syndrome.” "

If you believe the original article is wrong, then you should perhaps make a
comment in the main thread explaining why it is wrong instead of contradicting
me. I merely assumed what the article said about the studies was more or less
correct.

~~~
akiselev
It's like your eyes refused to show your brain the words that you didn't want
to read.

"Subsequent studies, however, provided mixed results: some confirmed findings
of brain lesions in animals or symptoms in humans, but other studies were
unable to replicate the results. Double-blind studies often showed little
correlation between MSG and adverse symptoms. Parties on both sides of the
debate slung accusations at the other, with the anti-MSG researchers claiming
that studies were being funded by MSG producers, and pro-MSG researchers
accusing the other side of fear-mongering.

From the FDA to the United Nations to various governments (Australia, Britain
and Japan) the public bodies that have investigated MSG have deemed it a safe
food additive. The FDA states on their website:

FDA considers the addition of MSG to foods to be “generally recognized as
safe” (GRAS). Although many people identify themselves as sensitive to MSG, in
studies with such individuals given MSG or a placebo, scientists have not been
able to consistently trigger reactions.

Scientific interest in its deleterious effects seems to be waning: one of the
last studies to gain public attention was published in 2011. The authors of
that study claimed to have found a link between MSG and obesity, though those
results have been questioned. While the general scientific consensus seems to
be that only in large doses and on an empty stomach can MSG temporarily affect
a small subset of the population, MSG’s reputation is still maligned in the
public eye."

That last sentence is important.

~~~
hristov
I very clearly mentioned in my original comment that there are other studies
that show no effects. My point was and still is that if there are some studies
that show negative effects and some studies that show no negative effects, the
latter do not (for me at least) cancel out the former. It is entirely possible
that there are negative effects that are not picked up by some studies. The
fact that the FDA believes that MSG is "generally recognized as safe" does not
guarantee it is safe. To use my previous example, the FDA also used to believe
that trans fats were safe.

So all my comments have been logically consistent with each other and my
actual honest opinion. Thus they are quite undeserving of your half thought
out response.

~~~
sjwright
Your attempt at a rationalization is logically flawed to the point of
embarrassment.

~~~
hristov
If you think there is a logical flaw in my argument say what it is. If you do
not feel like saying what it is, then do not post. You must be very proud of
yourself for composing a sentence with several big words in it, but it means
absolutely nothing.

~~~
sjwright
The logical flaw is that you assume that all studies are worthy of
consideration, and the hidden inference that equal weight should be given to a
study regardless of its methodology or rigor.

Good information generally cancels out bad information. I have no particular
opinion about the veracity of any MSG claim, but there have been _so many bad_
dietary studies published. I would urge a skeptical default position on any
result, and only moderate skepticism based on evidence of sample size,
methodology and rigor.

------
phormula
A great way to get some Umami in your cooking is Vietnamese fermented fish
sauce

------
ajcarpy2005
I'm not familiar with chemistry but I am pretty sure that MSG (glutamic acid
bonded with sodium) can have different properties (or be handled differently
by the body) than glutamate...the amino acid.

------
elias12
See this great talk by Chef David Chang on MSG & Umami.
[http://www.madfood.co/david-chang-3/](http://www.madfood.co/david-chang-3/)

------
beachstartup
isn't it interesting that msg "syndrome" is associated with chinese food,
rather than japanese, even though japanese food is also loaded down with it?

hmm.

~~~
eropple
I'd venture a guess that Chinese takeout restaurants are probably more common
(or have been for longer) than Japanese places.

------
fennecfoxen
I'm just going to leave this here...

[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t73urU2Degw](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t73urU2Degw)

 _MSG 'd!!! Ow, my stomach lining!!_

