
How China Turned a City into a Prison - sajid
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2019/04/04/world/asia/xinjiang-china-surveillance-prison.html
======
mstaoru
I live in China for 10+ years now, and I believe it is turning the whole
country into a prison. Here are some of my observations from Shanghai:

\- while walking 1.1km from my home to the subway station, I counted 47
cameras, and probably missed 10 or so, not counting 20-25 cameras inside the
subway station,

\- every few days in the morning the police will block the subway entrance and
check documents, I get checked every time probably because I have a bit of a
beard,

\- for the last month, I've been stopped in the street twice to check
documents,

\- for the last 5-7 years every bag has to be scanned when entering subway,
and Q3' 2019 full body scanners will be rolled out,

\- our neighbors complained that we receive "too much" delivery packages, so
the police came to search our house (no warrant needed), they had a printout
of all my online orders (no warrant needed) and my chats (no warrant needed),
and they keep asking "where do we spend our money",

\- car horns are prohibited now within the 2nd Ring, and the offenders' plate
numbers are displayed over the city — think about the technology of
identifying car plates in a 30+ million city traffic by horn sound,

\- jaywalking is prohibited and offenders get penalties to their social
credit,

\- a new app called "study the word of Xi Jinping" is almost compulsory, my
wife's mom is calling us often to make sure we "study", her Party unit gets
points for this, and if we don't "study", my wife will be kicked out of the
Party with many consequences,

\- my wife's brother is on the blacklist for high-speed train and air travel
because he bankrupted his company and couldn't pay back the loan, he lives in
the West and has to travel for 3 days with a slow train to visit his family...

Not saying these things are black or white, but this is certainly a scary
direction and it gets more and more oppressive day by day.

~~~
kamaal
>>our neighbors complained that we receive "too much" delivery packages

That feels like straight out of 1984. I mean what are they driven by? I can
only imagine the brainwashing that leads to things like _party loyalty_ and
snitching on neighbors because they look like they order a lot of toys.

>>they had a printout of all my online orders (no warrant needed) and my chats
(no warrant needed)

Given all this do you really want to be risking your own and your family's
life by writing this on HN?

>>a new app called "study the word of Xi Jinping" is almost compulsory

This is laughable. Seriously. For starters. Forcing or demanding respect
_never_ works.

------
o10449366
Google's pursuit of Dragonfly is only going to exacerbate this situation and
they will actively be complicate in the censorship of these human rights
violations and further enable the Chinese government's ability to suppress
dissent.

When Google left China they did so because they had "...evidence to suggest
that a primary goal of the attackers was accessing the Gmail accounts of
Chinese human rights activists."[0]

Since then, by Google's own numbers, the Chinese government has become
significantly more suppressive and demanding:
[https://transparencyreport.google.com/government-
removals/by...](https://transparencyreport.google.com/government-removals/by-
country/CN?hl=en)

Given the status quo, what message does it send to the Chinese government that
Google is willing to backtrack on their statements and work with a government
that is even more evil than the one they left? It's naïve to think that the
Chinese government won't use Google's re-entry as a tool for suppression, and
it's also naïve to think that Google doesn't understand this. Their greed will
only further facilitate these human rights abuses.

[0]: [https://googleblog.blogspot.com/2010/01/new-approach-to-
chin...](https://googleblog.blogspot.com/2010/01/new-approach-to-china.html)

~~~
jaxbot
On the other hand, censorship isn't perfect, and giving more access to the
internet means more access to west and censored ideas by the masses. I can't
predict how it will play out, but I was hoping that Dragonfly, if launched,
would result in better access to information for Chinese who currently are
already censored AND have worse access to the treasure trove of info on the
internet than us in the West.

~~~
o10449366
That's the hope and the current justification for the project, but I don't
find that argument very persuasive. Like I said, the situation in China has
only gotten worse since Google said "enough is enough" and left. I find it
hard to believe that Google's willingness to work with the Chinese government
under current circumstances will somehow result in a more expanded internet
than existed before.

No one can predict how it will play out, but censorship technology has only
improved since Google left. Having another search engine to choose from
doesn't necessarily mean Chinese citizens will have access to more
information, it just means that the Chinese government will have more avenues
to disseminate misinformation. I could easily see millions of Chinese citizens
being lulled into a false sense of security by Google's presence and fall prey
to government watchers.

~~~
jaxbot
My only strong opinion is that I'm completely unqualified to opine on this as
a white american westerner. When the Dragonfly outrage was happening within
the company, many people stood up and helped kill the project (by leaking, by
complaining internally, by refusing to work on it, etc.). But the Chinese
nationals I work with weren't particularly pleased with all the westerners
speaking on their behalf. Obviously my sampling doesn't represent the
population, but the general attitude was that Baidu is woefully subpar and
denying access to information, censored or not, was against Google's stated
mission.

Believe me, I'm greatly disturbed by China's censorship. Talking shit about my
own government is a right I can't imagine losing, let alone access to the
treasure troves of anti-US thought. I also know how terrified I would be if my
own government had the ability to lock down information. Imagine Trump and the
GOP having that power, even for 4 years, and what damage they could do. (And
GOP voters would make the same argument, of course, the other way around, and
already do fear that tech companies are censoring their freedom of thoughts).

So believe me, I'm not trying to defend China here, nor am I trying to shill
for the project. But it's not my lane to opine on, and I had hopes that if the
project _did_ launch, that some good could come out of it. But your concerns
are absolutely valid too.

~~~
FartyMcFarter
> But the Chinese nationals I work with weren't particularly pleased with all
> the westerners speaking on their behalf.

Just because someone thinks their company shouldn't engage in a specific
project due to ethical concerns, that doesn't mean they're speaking on behalf
of the people affected by those ethical violations.

It's perfectly reasonable to want to stop the project due to the ethical
principles alone.

~~~
yorwba
> Just because someone thinks their company shouldn't engage in a specific
> project due to ethical concerns, that doesn't mean they're speaking on
> behalf of the people affected by those ethical violations.

It however presumes that they know enough about the situation to apply those
ethical principles to decide what's best for the people affected.

It's hard to find an analogy for this, but consider milk powder. Due past
scandals about contaminated milk powder, Chinese parents who can afford it
prefer importing milk powder from overseas. Now suppose China bans halal
products. Should a milk powder manufacturer who previously exported both halal
and non-halal milk powder to China continue to export their non-halal powder,
or should they stop exports of both product lines to avoid complying with what
they believe to be an ethical violation, knowing full well that Chinese
consumers will then be exposed to the hazardous milk powder manufactured
domestically?

The alternative to Chinese people getting censored search results from Google
isn't getting uncensored search results from Google, it's getting censored
search results from Baidu.

------
0xcafecafe
I liked the graphics heavy style of the article. Also, it doesn't touch upon
the brutality of the indoctrination camps. There are reports of them being
forced to eat pork, forced marriages,etc. I wonder if this is the closest we
can get to NK outside NK.

~~~
gumby
> I liked the graphics heavy style of the article

I'm glad you posted this because I felt the exact opposite (it's almost always
good to have my assumptions questioned).

I wanted to read some info but I had to click, see a picture, and then see
some small amount of text slowly appear. I closed the tab after seeing that on
the first image -- to me it's basically as worthless as a video. I don't have
the patience for that and feel that the NYT doesn't value my time. Clearly
some people feel the opposite!

I would love to see some data on these experiments by the nyt: do they show
greater revenue than ordinary articles?

~~~
pmarreck
I was on the fence until they used the video to highlight the actual minders
and the videocameras. That sort of thing is hard to convey with text. Has more
impact visually.

------
Ozzie_osman
I don't get why China is taking these extreme measures. I know there's a
general feeling of anxiety towards Muslims (I'm Muslim) and I understand that
China worries about these sorts of cultural issues. But this is really heavy-
handed. Can someone explain this to me?

Of course, I should make clear that I completely condemn this type of behavior
from _any_ country. And point out that letting China get away with this means
many other countries will do the same.

~~~
HansLandaa
Everyone seems to ignore the trouble China has with terrorists in this region.
Plane hijackings, mass killings, suicide bombings. I think that you have to
view what's happening in the context of the violent terrorist attacks that
have occurred.

~~~
sdinsn
Probably because China has a problem with authoritarianism is every region.

Tienanmen Square happened because the Chinese government claimed there was
"unrest" and "crime" when there was just protests about human rights.

------
zachguo
Have you wondered why Xinjiang is like this now?
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xinjiang_conflict](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xinjiang_conflict)
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkistan_Islamic_Party](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkistan_Islamic_Party)

~~~
Ennis
How can civil conflict of any kind possibly justify treatment of civilians by
their own Goverment in this way? Regardless of your intentions that comment is
insensitive and avoidant of the conversation.

~~~
zachguo
It's not "civil conflict", it's terrorism led by a branch of Islamic State
killing thousands of civilians. Have you wonder why all major media release
articles about Xinjiang every week but ignore this important piece of
information intentionally? What kind of consent are they manufacturing now?

Let's make the conversation a bit more constructive, can you offer a better,
effective and peaceful way to prevent future terrorist attacks from happening?

------
Ennis
As technology workers our influence on the world around us is outsized in many
ways. At some point we have to get more heavily involved in building civil
society in local and global ways. Live and let live is a great mantra but it
is failing because we don’t excercize the influence we have in ways that can
prevent these things from happening. If Facebook is toxic it can and should be
forced to change. If the Chinese state is complicit in such large scale crimes
against humanity then it’s ability to trade with us can be severely curtailed
to influence behaviour. Consider California alone passing laws that prohibit
investment or even trade with companies who have investment from such states.
The change will be swift.

------
Hasz
Good lord, that place is unbelievably dystopian. If it wasn't real, I would
have called it a bad Orwellian fiction.

Dozens of security cameras everywhere, inside shops, streets, and even the
mosque. Mandatory government id, tied to a facial recognition regime. No
shortage of well armed police, and plenty of fear.

From another article: " 120,000 Uighurs are being held in Chinese political
reeducation camps in Kashgar prefecture alone, according to Radio Free Asia
(RFA). Guards force detainees to sing patriotic songs, bombard them with
propaganda, and require them to study “Xi Jinping Thought.” Beijing does not
publicly acknowledge the existence of these camps, yet Uighur activists
estimate 1 million Uighurs have been detained since April 2017. "

Given this climate, I find it hard to believe that this is the only activities
going on behind the camp doors.

If there was ever something the US should condemn China for, it's this.

~~~
gdhbcc
Are you describing china or western europeia countries like portugal?

~~~
powerapple
I believe England cities have more cameras

------
tuxxy
When will founders decide that accepting Chinese VC funding is unethical? The
money feeds back into a system that gives human rights very little value.

------
OrgNet
The UI is a bit funky and makes it hard to know when you can press the 'next'
button when you are trying to do it as early as you should

------
qwerty456127
Although I personally find this pretty nightmarish yet I still can acknowledge
it makes some sense and there probably is quite a number of people who would
prefer to live in a surveillance-heavy police-state city (willing to trade
privacy for guaranteed lack of criminals around). So I believe such a city
should exist in every country just for them (in fact the more different kinds
of places to choose from there are in a country - the better) as long as
people outside don't get discriminated and as long as people who lived in the
city before the surveillance system implementation are well-assisted and
compensated in moving out.

------
dmix
> The police sometimes take Uighurs' phones and check to make sure they have
> the compulsory software that monitors calls and messages.

Wow, this is the definition of a modern police state. Sounds like a dystopian
video game.

------
redm
This article looks like digital “rags” should, its editorial, but the rich
media, subtle sound, really bring it to life. It could do with a bit more text
and details, but the format in general is stellar.

------
spectramax
What bothers me about HN is how people here are afraid to criticize the
Chinese government and their authoritarian regime. We should be fearlessly
talking about it. What happens here is the “softening” of opinions either by
A) Comparing with America B) Somehow justifying authoritarian governments by
observing success and economic progress in Shanghai/Shenzhen.

I feel that Googlers inside of Google has the same type of environment but
with combined strong business justification to oppose project DragonFly.

HN is one of the most intellectual communities in the internet, I love reading
comments just about anything here. Except for this topic - I despise HN in
this regard.

In the past, I was told by moderators to not post any inciting comments that
are about China because it ends up being USA vs China. What a shame...While I
agree that the conversation becomes toxic, what’s the point of a community
where I cannot freely express criticism of a government that takes a lot of
risk by real journalists to put stories like this in front of the world.

~~~
theseadroid
As a Chinese, I dont really understand the utility it brings to the table of
people here criticizing Chinese government on issues like this NYT article. I
dont see that it will make China a better place or bring new knowledge to the
HN community. So I agree with the moderator's approach.

The reason being we (me included) are not subject experts on the issues.

>what’s the point of a community where I cannot freely express criticism of a
government that takes a lot of risk by real journalists to put stories like
this in front of the world.

The problem is you are probably not at a position to be able to differentiate
whether this piece is by journalists taking risks and unveiling the truth or
just a subtle propaganda to some degree. (And i'm very surprised by your
confidence in Western media on issues related to China, yet most of HNers
understand how inaccurate media are when dealing within their respective
fields.)

I can go on and on about this topic. I also encourage you to talk to some
Chinese around you who are first generation immigrants, rather than forming a
China criticizing bubble here or somewhere else with other Westerners.

~~~
ohazi
I'm not sure if I've misunderstood your position, but you seem to think that
only subject matter experts should be able to criticize a government. This
seems absolutely crazy to me, and I think you'll find that most Westerners
share my view.

If this was how it worked, the government would be able to claim that _nobody_
is expert enough to criticize, and it would be able to do whatever it wanted
to its citizens. Kind of like how the government works in China, and exactly
like what's happening here.

"You're not an expert. You don't understand. You're not from here. We do
things differently here." The entire international community has criticized
China's treatment of their Uighur population. Yes, China does human rights
differently. We know.

Western governments are accountable to their citizens, expert or not. If the
people think that something is unacceptable, they are expected to express
these thoughts through the Democratic process, and then the government is
required to change its behavior, even if the people were "wrong" in some
expertly measurable way.

The culture in the West sees anything less than this as immoral or corrupt,
and we generally don't consider things like "social orderliness" to be worth
sacrificing Democratic ideals for, as seems to happen in China.

It's not a matter of talking to more first generation Chinese to get a clearer
perspective. I've spoken with ethnic Chinese people who still live and work in
China, and I understand their perspective quite well. Most of them have
understood my perspective too. The issue is not that we don't _understand_
each other, it's that our perspectives and expectations from other people and
from government are different in some pretty significant ways.

~~~
theseadroid
It's very true as you said: >it's that our perspectives and expectations from
other people and from government are different in some pretty significant
ways.

But what I meant is really about whether HN is a good place to discuss this
issue, where for most other discussions we expect to find some good comments
from domain experts.

~~~
spectramax
"it's that our perspectives and expectations from other people and from
government are different in some pretty significant ways"

I think that should not give a license to stop discussion and criticism if you
are from a different country. There is a pretty good understanding of
political ideologies across the world about authoritarianism. We have seen the
results of dictatorships and authoritarian governments and how they turned
out. There is absolutely no reason to say that "It is different, it is a
different perspective about governance". Absolutely, it is different and there
is a universal understanding of what that difference is.

George Orwell accurately outlines what is going on in Kashgar and other
regions in China. He outlined it decades ago.

If I were Chinese citizen, I would be the first one to question the
government's actions. Except, that the Chinese people tried to protest in 1988
and it ended in a massacre.

I have been to China many times and I love the people there, culture, and how
they live lives just like anyone else in the world. Criticism against the
government and political ideology has nothing to do with "an attack against
China". I know you're not saying that but I wanted to clarify.

~~~
theseadroid
>According to the World Bank, more than 500 million people were lifted out of
extreme poverty as China's poverty rate fell from 88 percent in 1981 to 6.5
percent in 2012, as measured by the percentage of people living on the
equivalent of US$1.90 or less per day in 2011 purchasing price parity terms.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poverty_in_China](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poverty_in_China)

If this is not the biggest human right achievement during that 30 years I dont
know what is. I also looked up data from world bank for India and Brazil and
they albeit democracies seem less effective toward eliminating their
proveties.

Do I want China becomes an even better place? yes. I emigrated but not my
close relatives and friends and classmates. I miss them. Can China become a
better place by pressure from western countries? I doubt it. It instead makes
a great number of Chinese more anti-western.

What can make China a better place in my mind, is western countries showing
what real democracy can do to make their own countries better. You bet all the
Trump/Brexit/US healthcare/wars/drugs are not making ordinary Chinese more
exciting embracing democracy.

Or maybe I'm wrong from the beginning that you are not interested in making
China better with those discussions or criticisms.

~~~
tropo
Doesn't China already have democracy? It appears to, despite two unusual
attributes:

1\. Only one party is permitted, effectively making that party a part of the
government and thus being equivalent to banning parties.

2\. You have to be a party member to vote. This is available to those with a
good reputation.

Those oddities don't seem to be disqualifying. The USA didn't begin with
parties or universal suffrage.

~~~
theseadroid
I guess so, I'm not arguing against that.

Furthermore, I'd encourage spectramax or anyone this video if not seen:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rStL7niR7gs](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rStL7niR7gs)
(Basically under a dictatorship you still need to represent the citizens in
some degree.)

At this point I don't remember what I'm arguing and again I'm not an expert in
social science who can contribute to a conversation on solving China's problem
or the issue reported by NYT. I hope HN remains as a place where I can always
see insights from people who truly understand the domain and can give
constructive comments.

------
pmarreck
"Today, on 'Real-Life Dystopias'..."

