
Portugal's Velocidade Controlada – speed control traffic signals - mblakele
http://ideas.4brad.com/portugals-velocidade-controlada-speed-control-traffic-signals
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mig39
I've heard from my Portuguese cousins that they do it this way because speed
cameras aren't legal, but red light cameras are.

So while they can't give you a fine for speeding based on photo radar, they
can give you a fine for running a red light.

Not sure if it's true or not. But I've experienced the same red lights in the
middle of nowhere while driving in Portugal. There's also the social pressure
of triggering one of these -- it stops traffic and then you get the glares
from all around.

Portugal is also obsessed with roundabouts of all sizes, which I think are a
traffic-calming and safety thing as well. Even small intersections in the
rural areas have roundabouts rather than the standard North American-style
4-way stop signs.

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justacodefan
Oh they'll get you speeding on photo radar alright. The question is if the
fine will actually get to you before 3 months because the system is so poor.
And then you ask for the photo evidence and they'll tell you that you have to
pay for it (this happened to me once).

Fines for running red lights are an instant very serious offense and two of
these will suspend your license. Speeding depends on how much you went over
the limit but it's a bit more flexible.

4-way stop signs are the stupidest idea when there is very little traffic or
when there is a lot of traffic in a given intersection. In fact, they only
work well in a moderately trafficked intersection; vehicles are supposed to
stop once and then go through the light.

Roundabouts solve this entirely because for low, medium and even high
congestion areas they are very effective at clearing out traffic. Sure they
are definitely harder to tackle but as long as you're not in Braga (go around
the outside or you'll crash into someone) you will have little to no issue
doing them as most people are civil enough to tackle them properly. The issue
is placing them because they require significantly more space and not all
locations are suited to having them; if you notice most new planned roads all
include roundabouts.

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eCa
When I travelled through Spain back in '99 these were pretty common. They
usually turned green when cars had slowed down to the speed limit. I travelled
by bike so I didn't trigger them very often..

> Robocars of course would know where all these are and never trigger one,
> even if the occupants have commanded the vehicle to exceed the limit.

I will be very surprised if occupants of self driving vehicles have that
option.

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bradtemp
Be surprised, then. Google's cars have it. In fact, it would be unsafe not to
have it, and the history of attempting to force people with technology in
their cars to limit their speed is a history of that never happening.

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davnicwil
> Google's cars have it.

I had to look this up, not because I didn't believe you but just to verify and
read about the reasoning behind it.

The main point I got is that breaking the speed limit intentionally is done to
match other speeding traffic and thus not cause a hazard by going slowly
relative to everyone else on a section of road.

Whether or not this makes sense, I find it completely unbelievable that this
will be explicitly allowed by regulations in basically any country, as a
completely autonomous strategic decision by the car's computer.

Perhaps I could see it being 'allowed' as an option to be manually toggled by
a human - in the same way that most current road-legal cars have the
capability to reach speeds way beyond the limit and yet remain legal.

The law wouldn't explicitly allow this option to be used, but it of course
would be, and a blind eye would be turned in cases where it's obviously not a
problem, and prosecutions against the human who enabled the option would occur
in cases where it is - in other words how speeding laws are currently
enforced.

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bradtemp
The law doesn't allow you to speed, and tickets you if you do. The law does
not require your cruise control or throttle block you from speeding if you
choose to do so. Yes, you need it to not be a hazard to traffic (as you would
be at 65mph on I-280) but also because if you don't allow it, then people in a
hurry will switch to manual driving to go fast, thus reducing safety overall.

It's not "allowed" by regulations. The regulations simply don't speak to it.
But in Canada, for example, speed limiters in cars were found to violate the
constitutional rights of drivers!

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justacodefan
One thing that the author may not be aware of is that, despite the light
turning red for you and oncoming traffic, it _may_ turn green for any side
streets. Running the red light has potential consequences much more severe
than just a ticket (such as crashing into another driver) so no one ever dares
to do so.

I completely agree that these are better than speed bumps because people speed
through those too. And there's no need to slow down to 15 Km/hr either, you
can do it at the speed limit with some margin of error (around 15% iirc).

~~~
soundjack
Portuguese here. Speed cameras are definitely legal, although it's mandatory
to have a sign indicating their presence x meters beforehand (if I'm not
mistaken). Also mobile police units with speed cameras in very discreet places
is a common thing. What happened in Lisbon some time ago though was that most
of the radars ended up dying due to lack of maintenance (due to lack of
funds/attention/whatever). A lot were recently reactivated I heard.

But yeah these speed sensitive red lights are common and I agree that they
work pretty well. Social pressure is good for behavioral nudging. Reminds me
of those led signs that show a sad face if you go over the limit on certain
residential areas for example.

However I must say that nothing beats Belgium in speed radars. Especially in
Flanders, there are so many of these damn Gatso speed traps... What really
makes the whole thing work though is a very good system behind it. Here in
Belgium, if you're caught by a speed camera, you'll get the fine within 2
weeks tops. In Portugal however you might not even get it because the pile of
fines to process is too big and the system isn't prepared for it.

I can confirm the roundabout obsession too :) those can be really annoying but
they sure slow people down.

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soundjack
This reply was meant for mig39, its a bit late sorry.

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smackay
The interesting part of Velocidade Controlada is the attitude/culture behind
it: prevention rather than punishment. Compare this to the UK where the
equivalent system is a hidden camera and a series fines with the intention on
criminalizing the driver.

Now if only this kinds of enlightened thinking could be exteneded to driving
and talking on cell phones, driving at 200 km/h on the main highways and
excessive speed at cross-walks then the roads in Portugal could become much
safer and fewer lives would the ruined.

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dzhiurgis
Sounds like a great opportunity to mass produce and sell to other countries.

If you employ solar and use readily available components, they must come out
cheaper than doing roadwork.

Sending photos to centralized database might be more expensive part, but then,
perhaps those could be relayed for free via WiFi around (more social
pressure).

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joeyo
Sounds a little bit like (though more sophisticated than) the timed lights
that some cities employ, for example Oak and Fell streets in San Francisco. If
you go the speed limit you'll get green all the way though; if you speed
you'll just sit at a red light.

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stevep98
I'm pretty sure there was a light that did this in Virginia. Possibly on Route
7 North of Reston. Long stretch of road with no intersections, and a light
seemingly for no purpose.

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jchrisa
In America these are called "rest on red"
[https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=j6EBUR8sPmc](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=j6EBUR8sPmc)

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bradtemp
No, that's different. This light is normally green, and only goes red,
briefly, if you speed on the way to it. The rest on red stays red, and goes
green after you slow down a bunch for it.

