

Why I'm Returning My Kindle Fire - johndcook
http://www.artima.com/weblogs/viewpost.jsp?thread=338317

======
wesleyd
I returned mine too. It's not safe to let the kids use it. Amazon insist you
have one-click purchase set up even to watch free prime content, and they
don't let you set up a pin or a password just for the pay-for stuff. So it's
trivial for my children to run up outrageous bills.

(I installed and very soon thereafter uninstalled the amazon prime app on my
TV for the same reason: when you watch free prime content, they still seem to
send you a $0.00 invoice for every single free thing you watch. Then when your
children watch something else, they charge your card, and the "invoice" gets
mixed up with all the other $0.00 invoices in your amazon folder or inbox.
Fuck That Shit. At least Netflix is safe against that shit.)

If it wasn't Amazon, it'd be a clear-cut scam. But it's Amazon, so I have to
hope they come to their senses. Until then, we're getting an ipad, and we're
sticking with netflix (even though we have prime ... for now anyway).

------
flyt
I also returned mine. I was expecting a more polished experience from Amazon.
Even for $200 the software feels unfinished and nowhere near as responsive or
intelligently designed as iOS. The lack of hardware volume controls and
placement of the on/off switch are the killing blows.

This isn't buying a Honda and expecting a BMW-class experience. It's buying a
Honda and getting a car that only starts after three tries, only reads square
CDs, only streams music from EMI, and refuses to brake until the pedal is
pressed in the exact special way at the exact time. The iPad just drives.

~~~
angstrom
They're struggling to compete both high and low. The iPad is pressuring them
to put out a product that can use Amazon's VOD while BN is pressuring them to
put out a device with a price that competes with the nook which has partnered
with Netflix.

I doubt Netflix has any interest promoting either iTunes or Amazon services.
It would be as stupid as Borders allowing Amazon to run their website.
Hopefully this creates a nice trifecta of choice that benefits everyone.

~~~
elliottcarlson
On a side note; Borders was powered by Amazon from 2001 through 2008, until
they decided to go separate and compete directly with Amazon. Of course this
only mattered until Borders merged with B&N in 2010.

~~~
RexRollman
Borders did not merge with B&N.

~~~
elliottcarlson
Ah, indeed, I was wrong - B&N purchased the brand and customer list - the
merger was something that was rumored, but never happened.

------
makecheck
I tried using this for just a few minutes, since my friend has one.

The slowness is quite staggering. For example, there was a copy of a
dictionary on it; I tried to use Search to find a word (since paging through
from "A" would be ridiculous) and it took like 20 seconds to show ANY results.
This kind of functionality isn't just unacceptable, it's so bad that the
Search function _might as well not exist_.

The ability to hold it in one hand (albeit with stretched fingers) was nicer
than the iPad; but since there's no practical way to use that same hand to
operate the device it doesn't really matter. When I have to stop and use both
hands to operate a smaller device or a larger one, I would prefer to just have
the larger one.

------
andrewfelix
Not to dismiss his criticisms. The Fire has problems. But this device was
clearly designed for a different market. He acknowledges it _"I had read that
the Fire is designed as a consumption device for Amazon products"_ But he
decided to buy it anyway.

It seems odd to write a lengthy criticism of a product he anticipated wouldn't
suit him.

EDIT: grammar

~~~
yalogin
He acknowledges it after he bought it and as part of the analysis, not before
buying it.

Either way, I don't quite buy the argument. Amazon was hailed as the one
company that could rival the iPad ecosystem. So its not just a conduit for
people buying stuff on amazon. So my expectations for the tablet are pretty
high even at that price.

~~~
tomkarlo
"Rivaling the iPad ecosystem" doesn't necessarily mean "replicating" it. And
I'd point out that I believe that's concept is something overexcited
journalists decided, not something Amazon promoted.

Amazon seems to have mostly promoted the Kindle Fire as a Kindle with video
and games, for less than you used to pay for a black and white Kindle. For
$199, that seems like a good deal and I haven't seen many reviews done on that
basis. Doing a review that compares the Fire to an iPad or another $500 tablet
is like reviewing a Kia and complaining it doesn't accelerate as fast as a
BMW.

------
pragmatic
I went few phases:

1\. Wow, first tablet..this is aweseome!!!

2\. Hmmm, some slowness, buyer's remorse, should I keep this?

3\. Started using it for web surfing, games and reading.

The more I use it, the more I like it.

It needs more apps (the amazon appstore is limited, a good RSS reader would be
welcome, can't use the same one that I use on my phone).

Perhaps a software update or two can fix the speed issues?

I'm keeping mine for now, I use it way too much.

~~~
baddox
> _Perhaps a software update or two can fix the speed issues?_

I think this has been the primary complaint about Android from discriminating
users for years now. I swear there have been multiple rumors that "the _next_
version of Android will fix that" (by providing hardware acceleration of
native UI elements or some such), but I will believe it when I see it.

Until then, I suspect every Android device will be continue to be unusable,
including the ones with fancy _n_ -core _x_ gigahertz CPUs that are
theoretically _y_ times more powerful than a modern iPhone. When a flagship
Android device obtains UI performance on par with the original iPhone, maybe
I'll start taking Android seriously.

~~~
nknight
The day I got it, my Nexus One was noticeably faster than my original iPhone,
and that was pre-JIT. It's not as polished and smooth as iOS, but claims that
it's "unusable" are dishonest at best.

~~~
baddox
I'm not sure we're talking about the same things when you say "faster."
Obviously, a Nexus One has a much faster CPU than the original iPhone, and
will perform much better on benchmarks (graphics, JavaScript, etc.). However,
I've used a Nexus One fairly extensively (as well as even more powerful
Android phones like the Galaxy S II), and I think it's completely reasonable
to say that the basic UI elements are more consistently smooth and responsive
on the original iPhone. Granted, it's been one year since I had hands on an
original iPhone, so perhaps I should amend the comparison to the iPhone 3GS.

I'll also concede that in the strictest sense, Android phones are usable: I do
have the _ability_ to use them, and many people do use them. Of course, I
would also call IE6 unusable, even though it's also clearly usuable in the
strictest sense.

I use the term "usable" to describe any product that I would use if someone
gave it to me for free and I wasn't allowed to sell it. If you gave me the
current best Android phone for free, I guarantee you I would not use it.

~~~
checker
My 3GS is struggling with iOS 4.2.1: seconds of nonresponse in certain
situations. I'm planning on jailbreaking and rolling the OS back sometime soon
if I can figure out how to do it.

------
rwmj
I'd love to read a review comparing it to the Nook Color. I have a Nook Color
and it's not an iPad substitute. Nevertheless, loaded with CM7, it has a
useful place for light web browsing and reading recipes in the kitchen.

~~~
cubicle67
Is this what you were after?
[http://arstechnica.com/gadgets/reviews/2011/11/lean-mean-
con...](http://arstechnica.com/gadgets/reviews/2011/11/lean-mean-consuming-
machine-reviewing-the-nook-tablet.ars)

~~~
rwmj
That's a review of the Nook Tablet, which is a completely different product
from the Nook Color or the Kindle Fire. (Not rootable apparently either ...)

------
justinph
I bought one for my wife as a birthday gift. After reading the reviews, she
didn't want the Fire. I returned it and got the $109 no-keyboard no-touch
kindle instead, and she loves it. E-Ink is just such a better reading
experience than a LCD.

~~~
JoeAltmaier
Add: battery lifetime, real personalized recommendations.

------
techmonk
I disagree with his statement about the Kindle Fire not having built-in
support for .mobi files. I am currently reading Land of Lisp in .mobi format
on my Kindle fire with no problems. The one quirk I did notice is even though
I uploaded the .mobi file to the books directory, the book shows up in the
Docs view. It seems only books purchased directly through the Kindle store are
allowed to show up in the Books view. I generally like my Kindle Fire but I do
find some of the on screen buttons require multiple presses to respond,
particularly the back button. Hopefully this will be fixed in a software
update.

~~~
Turing_Machine
I was puzzled by that too, but from what I've read there's a tag defined in
the Mobipocket format that specifies whether something is a "book" or a "doc".
Previous Kindles (and, apparently, a lot of ebook generation software) ignore
this, but the Kindle Fire does not (possibly "doc" is the default if the tag
is not present -- unclear on this). You can supposedly fix the tag using
Calibre, but I haven't bothered. Now that I know where they are, it doesn't
really bother me.

I don't think the criticism wrt AVI is appropriate, either. I wouldn't have
expected it to play AVI, and in fact am somewhat surprised that anyone is
still using that as a distribution format. As a format for editing, it's
somewhat understandable, but it's not the best choice for media
distribution/consumption and hasn't been for quite a long time. Why would you
expect a random Android device to play an obsolete/obsolescent proprietary
Microsoft format?

I like the Fire, personally. It's not going to replace my iPad or eInk Kindle,
but it sure is handy for reading in bed.

~~~
AndrewDucker
AVI is still the major format for non-HD videos from the torrent sites...

------
rmason
I bought it primarily for reading books and figured any other use I got out of
it was a plus. I've since found out that it's great for video less so for
other stuff. I think overall it's an outstanding value for the price.

------
binarysoul
From what I've read, the kindle fire has been underwhelming. I think this is
largely due to our expectations for tablet computing, given that we now have
android tablets and ipads. Would it be fair to say the kindle fire is a better
kindle, but not a tablet computer?

~~~
saurik
In playing with my friend's e-Ink Kindles, and then playing with my new Kindle
Fire, I would answer "no: this is a step backwards"; note: I also love reading
on my iPhone 4 (which is actually where I get books; the Kindle Fire is just
for development), so it is not because I'm attached to the e-Ink. The Kindle
Fire just has this feel of the software having been roughly hacked together at
the last minute...

I realize they probably couldn't have for numerous reasons, but the simpleton
opinion is: they really should have delayed shipping it, and by the time they
get it together the existing poor press is likely to have already killed them.
(That that happens is something I think is stupid, btw, and causes poor
incentives to not ship things: old news should rot faster, and people should
care more about updating old articles with "the tiny software update they
released a week after I wrote this article makes everything I said obsolete".)

------
czervik
Got one free last week, and for me 7" is the perfect size for typing in
landscape mode. I actually quite like the Amazonized android too for the most
part. Side-loading apps is a bit of a hassle, but at least you can install any
android app. I put Dolhpin HD on it, runs fine. It's also not sluggish at all
(maybe they've pushed an update since the early reviews?). It's much zippier
than my LG revolution. Some apps seem to run way smoother than on my phone
(e.g. TuneIn Radio has been flawless so far). Battery life is good. The easy
to accidentally press power button at the "bottom" (using it upside down can
actually occasionally be an issue for some apps that only run in one mode),
and lack of a SD slot is really dumb. I'd still buy one for $200.

------
rokhayakebe
I bought one. First tablet. I find it just fine for the price tag and it is
extremely portable. Since buying it I have used my laptop about 70% less. For
some reason I cannot log into HN from the Fire. If I was able to, then frankly
I would only use my laptop for development or writing long form.

I am only using it for reading books and browsing. I have also downloaded a
couple of books in PDF format and sent them to my kindle email address. They
read just fine, although you will need to pinch-zoom every page if the text is
too small.

Sometime it freezes, and frankly I had to replace the first one (I bought it
in store).

I have no idea what people expect for $199. I find it very valuable for the
money. I have a feeling by the second or third iteration they will have a
dedicated audience just as Ipad and Iphone do.

~~~
SomeCallMeTim
>I have no idea what people expect for $199. I find it very valuable for the
money.

Thing is, there are other vendors who are creating REAL Google/Android tablets
in the $199 range, as he mentions. From those tablets you can get the entire
Android experience, unlike the Fire (unless you root it and put another OS
build on it, of course -- though that won't fix the lack of GPS or cameras).

~~~
bethling
At least for me, part of the reason I like the Fire is that it isn't the full
Android experience - I have a Archos tablet, that I don't use for any reason
other than to test things. With the Fire I look past/don't see the parts of
Android that I dislike - and I think a lot of that is that I really only use
the Kindle for the occasional E-Book/App, watch a streaming video, or listen
to music.

For the subset of things that I actually want it for, it does well - very well
in my opinion. I'm sure it likely falls flat if you expect more out of it
(which it sounds like he did).

~~~
SomeCallMeTim
What version of Android is the Archos tablet running: 1.6? Even 2.2 is clunky
compared to 3.0, and 4.0 looks wonderful.

More to the point, none of the Archos tablets (that I'm aware of) come with
the "full Google/Android" experience either. They use appslib.com to
distribute apps, which has less coverage than the Amazon AppStore, and it
comes with none of the other Google apps either.

So you're comparing the Fire, a non-Google experience, with the Archos,
another non-Google experience. Not relevant.

------
suprgeek
There is the Blackberry Playbook that is exactly the same device for the same
price but a lot nicer in UX. Lenovo also has the Idea Pad A1 that is slightly
more in ($229) price but same form factor.

Both of these devices will get you the full Tablet experience minus the lag
and general unfinished feeling of the Fire. Plus both have the Kindle app so
reading amazon content is not a problem. So there is no real market for the
Fire from what I can see. sure the Silk browser seems cool but Laggy execution
will kill any perceived advantages.

For about $100 more you can also get the ASUS Transformer (my current Tablet).
I have literally stopped using my laptop except at work once I got this. The
attached Dock makes it a perfect device for my usecases.

~~~
Paris_Gun
The Playbook is only available for 200 dollars at Best Buy under a current
sale, otherwise you're looking to be set back more like 250 dollars. The Idea
Pad A1 only has a single core and costs more so I'm not sure it's exactly the
best alternative.

------
czervik
I checked out that vizio, it's single core and 1/2 the storage (has an sd slot
though). Unless you care about the GPS and camera, seems rooting the fire is a
better choice. I doubt I'll root mine though, I'm one of the few that seems to
like it.

~~~
swasheck
i'm with you.

i'm rooting after the warranty expires

------
AjithAntony
Since Nobody else on this thread commented about the .mobi support yet, I'll
put this here:
[http://www.artima.com/forums/flat.jsp?forum=106&thread=3...](http://www.artima.com/forums/flat.jsp?forum=106&thread=338317)

From the comments and googling it appears that the Fire supports .mobi just
fine, except that it puts them in the "Docs" index instead of "Books".
Something about some meta data that distinguishes them.

------
mhb
Thoughts on the Kindle DX which is on sale for $259? The original Kindle
screen always seemed too small to me and the DX always seemed too expensive,
but now...

~~~
rdl
It doesn't have wifi, unfortunately. I have a first-gen DX (and have had
several of every model of Kindle since the first, actually), and am sort of
considering upgrading/adding another one.

It is the best PDF viewing solution out there. If you read CS papers in PDF
format, it's great.

Wifi and some way to keep in sync with a folder on my desktop (or in dropbox)
would sell me completely. I don't want to pay Amazon every time I upload a PDF
to the device via email.

~~~
njharman
> It is the best PDF viewing solution out there.

How is it better than iPad? I've long wanted large PDF viewer but only option
DX was $$$ and b/w. I got iPad for unrelated reasons but fallen into using it
for PDF reading. It's great. most my PDFs are image/graph/color intensive
.5/11" non reflowable. I need to jump around lots rather than read cover to
cover so page flip latency is kind of a killer.

~~~
rdl
I use both an iPad (generation 1; eagerly awaiting iPad 3) and kindles.

The kindle is much better in direct sunlight or high ambient light
environment, and because it lacks other apps, is better for distraction free
reading of large amounts of text.

I've used iPad, Kindle DX, and a computer simultaneously -- someone's paper on
the Kindle, coding on the computer, and the iPad for all communications
activity (the computer was not on the Internet).

For reading journals/journal submissions on the beach, the DX is the hands-
down winner.

~~~
njharman
Thanks.

------
guille
I think the problem is people are expecting all the functionality of the iPad,
this is simply a e-reader on a little bit of steroids. For me the device has
been good, the issue with the .mobi files confused me also but really they
just appear in the Doc section. If you go to this expecting for an iPad, you
will hate it. If you want a simple e reader that lets you browse the web and
download some apps, then its great.

------
dillona
Amazon made it very clear from the beginning that the Fire was designed first
and foremost for consuming Amazon content, and it does that very well. I do
not regret spending the $200 on it.

It was never advertised as a tablet or a competitor to the iPad, so I don't
understand all of the backlash from the people who wanted to use it that way.

~~~
danssig
Actually it kind of was by Bezos' letter. The whole thing about "some
companies are about ripping off customers with expensive stuff, we're about
providing value". Well, it turns out the more expensive thing _is a nicer
experience_ so his little sucker punch was a bunch of nonsense. I think _that_
is the biggest source of backlash.

------
purephase
I was debating the Fire vs. the Playbook given the similar prices. It sounds
like you get a lot more with the Playbook.

------
AlfaWolph
I refuse to go Android with another device until they implement hardware
acceleration and improve the user experience. The staggering that occurs when
scrolling and moving between applications is just plain unnatural and I have a
mini-aneurysm every time it does it. Plus, the battery drainage is atrocious
on the phone I have. That said, I haven't sprung for a tablet yet, so we'll
see where both the iPad and the best Android offering compare when that times
does eventually come.

------
big_data
The Kindle Fire is simply a great device for $199. I am keeping mine.

~~~
big_data
And will buy the next generation when it is released.

------
hamkas
damn did you try and use calibre??? I used it to upload into kindle 3g and
kindle fire. works seamlessly

------
SomeCallMeTim
I just recently predicted consumer backlash with the Fire:

<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3269095>

...so I guess I'm not surprised.

~~~
SomeCallMeTim
Wow, downvotes on HN with no explanation? Unusual, but I guess that's what
happens when a site gets popular.

