
Libya Shuts Down Internet - pitdesi
http://www.readwriteweb.com/archives/libya_shuts_down_internet.php#more
======
abalashov
More as a pedantic nitpick, and not that it's necessarily relevant, in the
sense that it may not undermine the veracity of the claim "Libya shuts down
Internet":

Traceroutes (or pings) halting at a certain point does not a dead route
necessarily make. Traceroute operates by setting the TTL (Time to Live) field
of a packet to 1 and forwarding it along.

In principle, routers that reach a value of 0 when they decrement the TTL drop
the packet and send a backward ICMP TTL-exceeded-in-transit notification to
the sender, which is how the address of the router is discovered. Then
traceroute sends out another datagram, increases the TTL by 1, and so on until
the desired endpoint is reached or a maximum TTL value is exceeded (to avoid
getting the datagram into routing loops).

In practice, some networks - especially at the edge, outside the core
infrastructure of large backbone haulers - block outgoing ICMP TTL-exceeded-
in-transit messages, and sometimes all ICMP, including ICMP echo reply,
administratively prohibited, and port unreachable messages. These are all
diagnostically useful, but can also be used to profile an endpoint or map the
interior of a network. I would especially expect a government like Libya's to
make a policy of blocking such revealing messages at all border routers
associated with national-level Internet egress points.

There is a constant and lively debate in the BGP and inter-domain networking
community about the relative benefit of ICMP messages for troubleshooting and
normal operations (after all, there was a reason the protocol was created) vs.
the perceived security liabilities of having unrestricted two-way ICMP
interactions with the rest of the Internet.

So, it's not clear what it means for traceroutes through the Telecom Italia AS
to "fail," nor does this necessarily indicate that Libya has gone dark. It
would be more convincing if all BGP announcements associated with Libyan
blocks were withdrawn, although that would only happen if every one of their
blocks was a provider-independent, RIR (regional Internet registry, RIPE in
Libya's case)-issued block, not a delegated part of a foreign provider's
larger aggregate announcement, so even then, who knows.

For what it's worth, I am unable to reach the same conclusion as the article,
at least at this moment. Here is the latest list of allocations to Libya from
<http://countries.nerd.dk[1]>:

    
    
       sasha@octavia:~$ egrep 'ly$' zz.countries.nerd.dk.rbldnsd
       41.208.64.0/18 :127.0.1.178:ly
       41.252.0.0/14 :127.0.1.178:ly
       62.68.32.0/19 :127.0.1.178:ly
       62.240.32.0/19 :127.0.1.178:ly
       80.231.6.0/23 :127.0.1.178:ly
       80.231.214.0/23 :127.0.1.178:ly
       82.205.146.0/27 :127.0.1.178:ly
       82.205.154.128/27 :127.0.1.178:ly
       82.205.174.208/28 :127.0.1.178:ly
       82.205.175.64/28 :127.0.1.178:ly
       82.205.182.24/29 :127.0.1.178:ly
       82.205.182.128/27 :127.0.1.178:ly
       82.205.183.0/24 :127.0.1.178:ly
       82.205.186.0/24 :127.0.1.178:ly
       82.205.213.0/24 :127.0.1.178:ly
       82.205.214.0/24 :127.0.1.178:ly
       82.205.218.144/28 :127.0.1.178:ly
       82.205.221.0/29 :127.0.1.178:ly
       82.205.221.160/29 :127.0.1.178:ly
       82.205.222.64/27 :127.0.1.178:ly
       82.205.227.0/24 :127.0.1.178:ly
       82.205.232.0/24 :127.0.1.178:ly
       82.205.251.0/25 :127.0.1.178:ly
       84.11.13.32/27 :127.0.1.178:ly
       84.11.13.176/28 :127.0.1.178:ly
       84.11.13.192/28 :127.0.1.178:ly
       84.11.13.224/27 :127.0.1.178:ly
       84.11.14.96/27 :127.0.1.178:ly
       84.11.45.48/28 :127.0.1.178:ly
       86.62.4.0/30 :127.0.1.178:ly
       88.202.120.0/23 :127.0.1.178:ly
       91.188.4.96/27 :127.0.1.178:ly
       91.188.7.16/29 :127.0.1.178:ly
       91.188.7.40/29 :127.0.1.178:ly
       91.188.7.64/29 :127.0.1.178:ly
       91.188.7.96/27 :127.0.1.178:ly
       213.209.168.4/30 :127.0.1.178:ly
       213.209.168.16/30 :127.0.1.178:ly
       213.255.224.160/29 :127.0.1.178:ly
       213.255.226.104/29 :127.0.1.178:ly
       213.255.226.120/29 :127.0.1.178:ly
       213.255.229.208/29 :127.0.1.178:ly
       213.255.240.128/29 :127.0.1.178:ly
       213.255.247.16/29 :127.0.1.178:ly
       213.255.247.232/29 :127.0.1.178:ly
       213.255.248.200/29 :127.0.1.178:ly
       217.194.135.152/29 :127.0.1.178:ly
       217.194.136.192/29 :127.0.1.178:ly
       217.194.136.240/29 :127.0.1.178:ly
       217.194.137.160/29 :127.0.1.178:ly
    

If you go find your nearest BGP looking glass (such as: 'telnet route-
server.gblx.net' as I prefer the Cisco interface, you can find others at
www.bgp4.as/looking-glasses) and do, for example:

    
    
       show ip bgp 41.208.64.0/18
    

... you will find the announcements for all of the above alive and well.

P.S. Why does everyone who says "if you have a .ly domain, you are supporting
the Gaddafi regime!" assume that the .ly TLD is managed directly by Libya? [2]
Many smaller, less Internet-involved (if not wholly Internet-unconnected)
countries outsource management and use of their TLD to foreign companies in
exchange for licensing fees.

EDIT: It does appear that '.ly' is managed from inside Libya now, but if so,
that's a relatively recent development. There was a UK company that managed
the 'ly' zone for quite some time.

Now the primary nameserver seems to be dns1.lttnet.net, associated with Libyan
Telecom and Technology, and whose IP is 62.68.42.9 and indeed part of one of
the Libyan allocations above (62.68.32.0/19).

If it's stability you're concerned about, then look who else is involved as a
backup other than lttnet.net:

    
    
       sasha@octavia:~$ host -t SOA ly
       ly has SOA record dns.lttnet.net. khaleds.lttnet.net. 201102220 3600 900 2419200 600
       sasha@octavia:~$ host -t NS ly
       ly name server dns1.lttnet.net.
       ly name server ns-ly.ripe.net.
       ly name server dns.lttnet.net.
       ly name server phloem.uoregon.edu.
       ly name server auth02.ns.uu.net.
    

Don't jump to conclusions.

\---

[1] Most of these are /27s and smaller that are part of larger aggregates. I
can't quite put my finger on why such small subnets are listed, given that the
smallest announcement allowed in the global BGP table is a class C (/24). I
would guess this list was compiled from the more granular delegation data
found in WHOIS records, not a full BGP view.

[2] Also, you only started caring about this now?

~~~
AnthonBerg
"P.S. Why does everyone who says "if you have a .ly domain, you are supporting
the Gaddafi regime!" assume that the .ly TLD is managed directly by Libya? [2]
Many smaller, less Internet-involved (if not wholly Internet-unconnected)
countries outsource management and use of their TLD to foreign companies in
exchange for licensing fees."

If this is the case, and someone is paying for a .ly domain, then their
payments go to Libya in the form of licensing fees, thus supporting the
regime.

~~~
abalashov
In a broad sense, perhaps, but this implies a 1:1 correlation about the
licensing arrangement that remains to be established.

More importantly, Mr. Muammar has been in power since the 1969 coup. _Now_ we
are supposed to start caring about his trafficking in adverb suffixes?

~~~
AnthonBerg
I can't see that anything specific about the correlation is implied.

And why not care now? Which is worse - to care too late, or to not care at
all?

------
il
If you're using a .ly domain for your startup, this should give you pause. Not
because of potential downtime, but because by buying a .ly domain, you are
directly financing this oppressive regime.

~~~
codeglomeration
I would say buying their oil has more of an influence, rather than owning a
.ly domain. The earning for the domains are probably insignificant compared to
the oil.

~~~
il
True, but it's a lot easier for the average hacker to stop buying their
domains than their oil.

~~~
jules
Use less oil? I don't know how much oil comes from Libya, but you might be
able to deny them more money by using less oil than not using a .ly domain
(which is only a couple of dollars a year).

~~~
dhughes
The USA buys about 20% of its oil from Canada, buy more from us.

------
btilly
For those who are interested,
[http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/feb/20/unrest-
morocco-i...](http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/feb/20/unrest-morocco-iran-
algeria-yemen-china) says that protests are also happening in Morocco, Iran,
Algeria, Yemen and China.

If this continues to spread it could end up being the biggest change in
geopolitics since the fall of the Iron Curtain.

~~~
brc
One of the biggest commonalities between these countries is a very large bulge
at the young end of their population statistics. These are countries with a
large population of young people. That fits pretty well - a young person with
no job and no prospects is going to have the energy and stamina to sit in
protest.

My question is : how did these countries end up with so many young people from
a (relatively) small older population? Did everyone have 10 children? Did all
the old people die (or leave)?

I'm genuinely curious about this one.

~~~
elviejo
Maybe comes from the fact that child mortality has reduced dramatically.

But the habit in this countries of having more than 5 children hasn't changed
yet? Probably it takes a generation for families to adapt to the fact that you
don't longe need to have several children to make sure that some of them
survive to adulthood.

Take a look at this TED presentation for some amazing facts.
[http://www.ted.com/talks/hans_rosling_shows_the_best_stats_y...](http://www.ted.com/talks/hans_rosling_shows_the_best_stats_you_ve_ever_seen.html)

------
mahmud
When was this shutdown? my twitter stream has news out of Tripoli 15 seconds
ago.

[Edit:

There IS internet, but he is cutting power of sporadically.

Reports of his son Saif being shot, and Gaddafis fleeing to Venezuela.

Several Libyan ambassadors already resigned.

Various military units defected, and sided with the public against the hired
mercenaries.

~~~
csomar
It seems that some (hackers?) opened dial-up servers for them in foreign
countries. Some pages are giving these numbers and the login to connect.

~~~
mahmud
Not any hackers, the Dutch ISP xs4all is givin away free dialup, others too (I
even tweeted one such yesterday)

But, no, a good chunk of Tripoli is online. Benghazi is devastated but
victorious.

FWIW, Gaddafi is on his way out :-) Few more days (maybe hours!)

~~~
stcredzero
Basically, if you've reached the point of cutting of internet, you've reached
the point where you're going to be killing your own populace to hold on.

This thought puts the proposed US Internet Shutoff switch in a new light for
me.

~~~
electromagnetic
> This thought puts the proposed US Internet Shutoff switch in a new light for
> me.

I'm glad, this is _exactly_ the light I saw it in in the beginning. A
'shutoff' for any form of communication is always a form of supreme
oppression.

Being able to silence peoples objections just means they're going to stop
shouting and tweeting, and start bashing the message into your skull until you
get the point that they don't like you.

------
sudonim
The uprising in egypt was relatively peaceful. The media spotlight was on and
Mubarak may have restrained from using force to save his own skin. Comparing
the two because Egypt also shut down the internet is natural, but Mubarak is
not Qaddafi. Even if the internet shut down is ineffective at quashing
dissent, it seems unlikely that Libya's path will be at all similar to Egypt.

~~~
krschultz
Unfortunately the protesters will pay the price. I'm not sure there is
anything the rest of the world can do to help, or at least the US, because
foreign military force delegitimizes any home grown revolution. When the group
in power are willing to use deadly force the protesters won't be able to win
based on numbers only. If Egypt's military had crushed the protesters I doubt
it would have turned out the same way.

~~~
jonpaul
While you may have a point. There was this one time when a foreign military
helped a homegrown revolution and it seemed to work out alright....

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/France_in_the_American_Revoluti...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/France_in_the_American_Revolutionary_War)

~~~
hammerdr
One key point: we were _asking_ the French to help.

~~~
jonpaul
[http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:m51jMMm...](http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:m51jMMmSOm0J:www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/africa/02/20/libya.protests/index.html%3Feref%3Drss_latest%26utm_source%3Dfeedburner%26utm_medium%3Dfeed%26utm_campaign%3DFeed%253A%2Brss%252Fcnn_latest%2B\(RSS%253A%2BMost%2BRecent\)+obama+protests+site:cnn.com&cd=12&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&source=www.google.com)

I had to use a Google cache article because when I click the original CNN link
it goes to a new updated article.

The quote:

"We have no freedom here," she said. "I speak to all the world, to America, to
Mr. Obama: Please help us. We (did) nothing. We want to live a good life."

Not that I support an interventionist policy, but this was shared to refute
your point.

~~~
hammerdr
I'm not fully cognizant of the situation. I wasn't saying that the Libyans
aren't asking, I was just pointing out a key element that made the French
intervention a fruitful one.

However, there are varying degrees of asking for help. The American
revolutionaries were sending formal representatives to France to plead their
case. As far as I know, there is one person pleading for help being quoted by
a reporter. That's a bit different.

------
jhamburger
One problem I see with this strategy is that it signifies a recognition of the
resistance. If I were Gaddhafi, I'd be doing everything to downplay the
significance of the protests, make it seem like a fringe element that won't
amount to anything. When you shut down the internets, you're telling people
"This is for real. It's going down right now, time to choose a side. You're
closer than you think."

~~~
brc
In the fullness of time, it will probably be traced back as one of Mubarak's
mistakes, as well. Because it propelled the story from the background to the
foreground - 'Egypt shuts off internet' is a pretty major headline. It also
let the protestors know that they were hurting the regime.

But then I wouldn't expect a north-african dictator really understanding the
consequences. They are much more likely to see it in a pure military sense -
the enemy are communicating using the internet. Let's close the internet.

------
swombat
First they laugh at you...

Then they ignore you...

Then they shut down your internet...

Then you win?

(I hope...)

~~~
stcredzero
_Then they shut down your internet...

Then you win?_

At best, it's an admission of defeat.

At worst, it's an admission that you're repressive and you don't care who
knows it.

~~~
brc
I think with Gaddafi he never really bothered to hide behind a fig leaf of
democracy or even legitimacy with other governments. The Libyan government was
always a lot more totalitarian than the Egyptian, and didn't really pretend.

I have a friend who has worked in Libya and has nothing nice to say about it.
He told me that the airport is still littered with the wrecks of planes from
Reagans' bombing in the 1980's. Whether they are still there as a reminder of
the 'imperial west' or because the Libyans are too lazy to clean them up is
not known. Having seen the amount of litter in pictures of Libya, it's harder
still to say for sure.

On the flip-side I really hope Libya becomes an open-access free and secular
state in my lifetime. There is some really cool architectural/historical
things in Libya that is effectively off-limits to anyone but the most intrepid
and determined traveller. Just imagine the ability to take a trip through the
mediterranean middle east without having constant border issues, government
minders, etc etc. I suppose it's a somewhat selfish view, but I bet a few of
the locals wouldn't mind a more organised tourist trade.

------
motters
Google suggests that it's a periodic flatline rather than a complete blackout.
Maybe a sort of internet curfew outside of business hours.

<http://www.google.com/transparencyreport/traffic/>

~~~
troymc
That's a neat proxy of Libyan internet connectivity.

Unencrypted Google searches went to near zero for several hours twice
recently. The rest of the time they've been getting through, but a bit less
than usual. The graph for Gmail is similar.

[http://www.google.com/transparencyreport/traffic/?r=LY&l...](http://www.google.com/transparencyreport/traffic/?r=LY&l=WEBSEARCH&csd=1297523945536&ced=1298128745536)

YouTube is a different story. It looks like YouTube in Libya got blocked about
three days ago, yet there's still a little bit of YouTube traffic getting
through.

[http://www.google.com/transparencyreport/traffic/?r=LY&l...](http://www.google.com/transparencyreport/traffic/?r=LY&l=YOUTUBE&csd=1297523945536&ced=1298128745536)

------
Bossman
So sad. Many people dying over there. I wish all citizens over there all the
best.

~~~
mcantelon
I've heard that part of the army is now supporting the protesters, which is a
very good sign.

~~~
Bossman
Absolutely a good sign. Hope it puts things in their favor. There have already
been too many deaths.

------
Kilimanjaro
Related: Uganda's president just won elections extending his 25 years in
power.

<http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-12516562>

Unbelievable how much tyranny, fraud and corruption goes unpunished around the
world.

------
mcdowall
A really interesting piece by the BBC on the issues in the region..

<http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-12482313>

------
mckoss
Can anyone comment, not on the social harm caused by using an .ly domain, but
rather the risk of failure of the DNS system to continue to honor your
records.

I would presume that Libya has outsourced the DNS root servers and
administration outside their country. Does anyone know who administers .ly
from a practical standpoint? Is there a risk of them becoming unavailable if
the regime falls (or as a tactic used against their own citizens)?

------
cristoperb
This article is from February 18. All routes came back up about 7 hours later.
Though since then there have been reports of internal outages, dns blocks,
throttling, etc..

------
aik
Gaddafi's son, Saif, live stream: <http://english.aljazeera.net/watch_now/>

~~~
sudonim
On mac, I've had persistent problems with the live stream directly on the AJ
site, but youtube also carries it:

<http://www.youtube.com/aljazeeraenglish>

(2nd video box on the page)

------
RiderOfGiraffes
For reference, as of now, here are the recent Libya stories:

<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2237053> : Libya blocks Facebook, ...

<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2237424> <\- Dead

<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2237787> : What happens to bit.ly?

<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2238267> <\- Dead

<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2238272> : Libya disconnect

<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2238274> : Death toll mounts

<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2238407> : Libya shuts down internet

<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2238664> : What happens to bit.ly?

<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2238768> : Libya blocking internet access

<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2239405> : No, it won't kill bit.ly

<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2240056> : Internet restored

<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2242320> <\- Dead

------
MediaBehavior
When I despair, I remember that all through history the way of truth and love
has always won. There have been tyrants and murderers and for a time they seem
invincible but in the end, they always fall - think of it, ALWAYS. --Gandhi

[Even though individual tyrants usually seem unable to conceive that this will
apply to _them_ ]

------
pc-pro-schools
If you own a .ly TLD I'd recommend slapping a 301 redirect on it and grabbing
yourself a .com or something not attached to such a unstable country.

