
India Shut Down Kashmir’s Internet Access - ETHisso2017
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/08/14/technology/india-kashmir-internet.html
======
reaperducer
_Shopkeepers said that vital supplies like insulin and baby food, which they
typically ordered online, were running out. Cash was scarce, as metal shutters
covered the doors and windows of banks and A.T.M.s, which relied on the
internet for every transaction. Doctors said they could not communicate with
their patients._

While nobody expects a war in their city, it's yet another example of why none
of us should rely on the internet as our sole means of doing anything.

Imagine a city where cashless transactions were the norm. Then imagine some
political group (internal or external) decides to cut off the internet to that
city.

~~~
SoylentOrange
While I understand where you’re coming from, I don’t agree with this
sentiment.

Imagine saying this about electricity or gasoline. Modern cities would be
completely shut down without these resources, and we should treat the Internet
in the same way - as a vital resource that we simply accept as present except
in the most egregious or catastrophic circumstances.

~~~
BurningFrog
> _Imagine saying this about electricity or gasoline_

You can store both in dunks and batteries.

If someone invents a way to bottle spare internet, that's the next unicorn for
sure :)

~~~
jefftk
Satellite internet, with batteries or a generator, works even when local
conflict shuts down pretty much everything else.

~~~
wtmt
Satellite Internet access would also be shutdown in a scenario like this,
since it would be the government permitting or denying who operates a
satellite to provide such services and the associated spectrum used...unless
other countries or individuals are able to put up satellites to help people in
oppressive regimes (slightly similar to the concept of Tor). Is there
something like this? Perhaps neighboring countries that do not agree with the
regime's decisions (like Pakistan in this case) could help. India demonstrated
the ability to bomb low orbit satellites a few months ago. With the current
regime showing no hesitation to bring two nuclear countries close to a war,
all bets are off for such efforts by Pakistan.

~~~
jefftk
Blocking satellites is much harder than shutting off the internet by ordering
the telcos to. Jamming is possible, but takes a large commitment. Destroying
satellites from unaligned countries is an even larger commitment, and not a
great plan if you want to keep them unaligned.

In practice satellite very often works when nothing else does.

------
adpirz
Am Kashmiri. Was born there. Have family there. My parents were born and
raised there. This is scary even for a region marked by persistent curfews,
border clashes between two nuclear powers, and an ongoing series of conflicts
between insurgents and the Indian Army. We have extended family from whom we
haven’t heard any news since this went into effect. It’s all just anxious
waiting.

What could possibly be the endgame from this unless you’re trying to actively
foment rebellion? How can this have any widespread support?

~~~
tlb
What's the status of other forms of communication, like postal mail or
shortwave radio?

~~~
owaislone
Mail has been banned as well. Cable TV was banned according to initial reports
but recent reports say cable TV is now allowed. No idea about radio stations.

------
saagarjha
Shutting down the internet in an effort to "keep the peace" is _really_
dystopian: how do Indian citizens stand for it?

~~~
sbmthakur
I don't think you are aware about Kashmir's situation prior to the abrogation
of the article. Stone-pelting(sponsored by seperatists) and murder of
civilians by terrorists were common. There is also significant amount of
Pakistan-backed propaganda in the valley. Pakistanis have already flooded the
internet with photos/videos from Syria, Palestine etc. and are claiming them
to be from Kashmir. Considering this, what do you think would've happened if
communication was fully open?

Is the communication blockade bad? Yes.

Is it necessary to keep the peace? Yes.

~~~
sifar
You cannot have peace by coercion. Period. It will either be an illusion or
delusion.

~~~
RestlessMind
There are many instances in history where coercion was required to bring
peace, especially in "bad situations" ranging from war to insurgencies to
domestic terrorism. Most notable examples: Germany in 1945, Japan in 1945,
counterinsurgency in Iraq in 2007-08, rooting out LTTE in Sri Lanka in 2009.

~~~
sifar
May be I should have clarified a bit more. I am talking about coercion of the
native populace of an internal region by its own government. The first two
were global conflicts. The last one may qualify but again it is a self-serving
cycle. You create a situation which leads to a region revolting and then you
need to pacify it through force.

------
Multicomp
Mesh networks please! Briar, Meshenger , heck maybe we need to make a cell
phone app to provide internet connection sharing over WiFi and or Bluetooth ad
hoc networks.

Can it replace full isps? Almost never. Can it enable light text based things
like emails, ordering supplies or cashless trxns? Maybe...

The biggest problem is scale of course, having such a large geographic area
would require most of the population to have this mesh app active at once plus
several 'exit nodes' with access to actual isp traffic somewhere in other
regions.

IDK this is a spitball reaction that I considered not posting as it doesn't
seem very thought provoking like normal HN comments but if it Sparks
discussion then it will have done its job.

------
throwaway99033
Until recently, I had a strongly positive impression of India, as an outsider:
rapidly modernizing, forward thinking and tolerant. Indians I meet in real
life certainly tend to reinforce that position. However, I stumbled upon
Indian Twitter during the election campaign, and I have been shocked by the
vicious hatred and massive troll armies, that exceed anything I’ve noticed
elsewhere. I imagine that WhatsApp is worse. The shocking behaviour has
greatly diminished my opinion of the country, and it now strikes me as a
powder-keg of hate.

The article mentions that the internet is being promoted as a way of advancing
the country...if that’s advancement, it may be better for India to hit the
brakes.

~~~
mav3rick
You judged a country of a billion people by two small subsets. No country has
as diverse a people as India. It comes with its own set of problems. "don't
use the internet" reeks of such privilege.

~~~
throwaway99033
That’s a reasonable point, and I do try to keep some perspective. The number
of “likes” and retweets for the hateful posts does seem to scale for India’s
massive population.

India also has a long history of deadly “communal violence”, something that
doesn’t really happen in other democracies. If questioning whether it’s wise
for companies like Twitter and WhatsApp to allow incitement for violence to
exist in such an environment is regarded as “privilege”, so be it.

~~~
vakataka
There is a reason for proliferation of hate on Twitter and that is the skewed
form of secularism that the Indian state has followed all these years. Those
who have lived in India know that most of the time the state is lenient
towards minorities even when they commit crimes. Even history has been
whitewashed to portray invaders as benign rulers so as to not offend
minorities. In some ways the Indian Natinal Congress turned the country's
polity into minoritarianism because they realized they could continue winning
elections with just their votes (this statement is a bit of a simplification).
The majority which has silently been observing this got a voice with the
advent of social media. For someone who doesn't have this context, Indians
will of course look hateful and communal.

~~~
mav3rick
Every party panders to their vote bank. It isn't different from anywhere. Just
so you know my original point wasn't proBJP or pro INC. Secularism and
diversity is hard. That doesn't mean we forget our tenets

~~~
vakataka
I am not taking any sides either. I am just giving the context for current
events.

------
hemansan
India is preventing the fate of Yugoslavia.

It would have been occupation if Kashmiris had lesser rights but that's not
the case. People don't ask what rights did people of Kashmir didn't have that
people of India had since 1947.

India is a country of diverse religions, and ethnic groups. If a minority
group demands separate nation should you give autonomy to it? If London
becomes Muslim majority, and demands separation, should England give in to
that demand?

If India gives away Kashmir, it means you can never trust minority of your
country because they can ask for separate nation and the world will support
that demand.

Do we really think that helps the cause of minorities in India or any other
country in the world?

~~~
sbmthakur
It's not just about the religion. Pakistan will most likely use Kashmir as a
terror launchpad against other regions of India. From India's perspective, the
region is strategic than anything else.

------
40acres
At what point is a region so distinct from the state in which it resides that
the best course of action would be secession? When I read the news I see
conflicts in integration every where: Hong Kong, Kashmir, Kurdish Syria /
Turkey. My general feeling is that due to a number of factors (imperialism,
war, etc.) that our current global map just doesn't reflect the reality of
international relations, unfortunately border disputes are rarely resolved
peacefully...

~~~
ajross
Balkanization has been tried, you know. Thousands of times. That doesn't work
so well either. It sounds glib and naive, but at the end of the day the path
to peace is just for people to stop fighting, forgive past sins and learn to
live with each other.

And generally that happens only after they get wealthy. Which makes shutting
down core civil infrastructure deeply counterproductive.

------
RcouF1uZ4gsC
>Kashmir, an area of 12.5 million people that is claimed by both India and
Pakistan and has long been a source of tension.

There is also a portion of the area that is claimed by China.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jammu_and_Kashmir#/media/File:...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jammu_and_Kashmir#/media/File:Kashmir_region_2004.jpg)

~~~
desi_ninja
Given to China by Pakistan who didn't have right to it in the first place as
per UN

~~~
iamshs
Shakshagam valley has been ceded to China by Pakistan as it not was contiguous
territory, so Pakistan got Brownie points. Aksai Chin was not given by
Pakistan to China.

------
owaislone
I generally try to stay away from threads related to Kashmir across social
media because they tend to be toxic with people having absolutely no regard
for democracy and basic human decency towards others. I thought HN discussion
would be better and while it was a little better, it turned out to be more or
less the same. In retrospect, I shouldn't have expected otherwise.

~~~
iamshs
Speak for people who are silenced. Don't let overwhelming propaganda
demotivate you, the article stands for itself. Propaganda in here is actually
transparent and future visitors will be able to discern it. Make their job
easier.

------
kappi
If anybody wants to read in detail about Kashmir issue from outsider, check
this [https://www.lawfareblog.com/indias-move-kashmir-unpacking-
do...](https://www.lawfareblog.com/indias-move-kashmir-unpacking-domestic-and-
international-motivations-and-implications)

~~~
amalag
Hindu Chauvinist party. Really? There are dozens of countries with Islamic
constitutions. Do we call all their leaders Islamic nationalists? There is a
serious effort to malign democratic norms in India unless it is only for
Islam, which was the state of affairs for J&K. Hindus in Jammu and Ladakh
which were part of the state of J&K were second class citizens. That has been
removed. Property rights of females is also restored unlike the Kashmiri
Sharia influenced constitution.

Kashmiri separatism is another in the line of Islamic jihadi separatism. It
was co-opted by the Pakistanis because they only consider that Muslims can
live ruled by Mullahs and Sharia and an Islamic constitution.

You will probably find 75% people in India or more in agreement with Modi's
action. The whip of the largest opposition party quit his party because he
agreed with BJP's actions. Remember that the resolutions passed parliament
with 66% of votesin the Rajya Sabha and 84% in the Lok Sabha. That is greater
than the numbers of the BJP so many other parties joined them in this.

India's 1.3 billion people will have no problem fighting another war with
Pakistan if again attacked over Kashmir.

The international media might as well get used to it.

~~~
selimthegrim
I hear that Janata party trying to get Jan Sangh people to resign their
affiliations went over like a lead balloon in the seventies. BTW, Kashmiris
liked them. RSS people can keep their membership and be called secular?

~~~
amalag
Hinduism is secular. Where have historically persecuted people of the world
gone? To Hindu India. Indian Hindus are why Zorastrian people still exists as
a religion. They had to flee Iran and Islamic domination hundreds of years
ago.

Hindu India has its share of casteism, which is a real problem. That I can
agree with.

~~~
nashashmi
There is a zorastrian presence in Iran.

In fact, Iran hosts the greatest number of the world minorities than any other
country. Even those that have been thought of as extinct.

~~~
sbmthakur
I somewhere read that Zorastrianism was once the primary religion of Perisan
Empire? Would like to know what exactly has caused their numbers to dwindle so
much.

------
chopete
We have so many satellites up there that can stream photos of specific
locations.

Can those companies fund a few days' worth of live streaming of key areas? It
gives everybody an option to see the reality/facts instead of opinions.

Nobody knows whom to trust in these crisis times and everything appears as an
opinion of an individual or a small group.

~~~
sumedh
> Can those companies fund a few days'

I assume these companies dont want any trouble from the Indian Govt if they
have business in India.

~~~
iamshs
Planet’s satellites use Indian launch vehicles due to their economic
viability. They were muted in their response to Debris in outer soace due to
Indian anti satellite test.

~~~
virtuabhi
Any support for your statement? If not, can you stop commenting on this
thread? IMO you have degraded this thread enough.

~~~
iamshs
Degraded? Oh, is it looking bad for India? Then India should stop doing bad
things. 10 Million people are caged right now, while you can express yourself
and you have the audacity to try to mute me too now.

Here's your source, I am not into bullshit:

“While Planet enjoys a great working partnership with agencies of India’s
government — like ISRO — we categorically condemn the anti-satellite missile
intercept recently conducted by India’s defense department,” the San
Francisco-based company tweeted March 27. “Space should be used for peaceful
purposes, and destroying satellites on orbit severely threatens the long-term
stability of the space environment for all space operators. Planet urges all
space-capable nations to respect our orbital commons.”

Planet will still not be boycotting ISRO and using them for the upcoming
launch of 5th series of Dove satellites.

------
scarejunba
In a historical sense, when a government shut off communications out of some
place somewhere, has there been a time they were just doing good things? In a
Bayesian sense, I feel like any time someone is saying "Nobody from inside
here can tell anyone outside anything", that someone isn't really doing good
things.

I wonder if it's worthwhile to install some sort of LibertyWeb that forms a
meshnet+satellite internet that allows text through, just in case governments
turn authoritarian.

------
sniperjzp
Does anyone notice that in the video there are kids holding guns, at around
00:54 and 01:11? I hope they are not real.

~~~
rounce
The Steyr TMP is definitely an injection moulded plastic toy. The Makarov also
appears to be plastic but the light makes it hard to see for sure.

------
amriksohata
The shutdown is because 10% of the population of Indian Kashmir is hardcore
wahabi sunni and holding the rest of it to ransom. People forget the 45% non
muslim population suffering and the rest muslim population who dont turn up to
these stone pelting protests.

------
selimthegrim
Get a load of this:
[https://twitter.com/AdityaRajKaul/status/1161161663493464064](https://twitter.com/AdityaRajKaul/status/1161161663493464064)

If J&K Police has some cell in Srinagar writing form letters to Twitter in San
Francisco every time someone posts something they don't like God help them
when the Internet comes back on.

------
surds
Wow. Matters always get heated up when J&K comes up. Folks, chill out. This is
HN, not one of the toxic comment cesspools around the internet.

IMO, the removal of article 370 was a good move because:

\- Article 370 was originally meant to be temporary. Central governments
before the current one did not have the will, numbers and political spine to
get it done.

\- Kashmir, as it was, would have been fine if it was a progressive and
developing state. Yes, it has developed compared what the situation was
before, but give the amount of money that is poured in there per capita,
compared to the rest of the country, is a lot! And it does not reach the
people.

\- The traditional Federal and State government model works decently well but
it does not work with Kashmir and the local government could pick and choose
only the new rules and amendments they liked. Anecdote: Kashmir government has
a tenure of 6 years, the rest of India: 5 years. India had made that provision
for a short time and was rolled back. Since it was more convenient for
Kashmiri politicians, it was adopted and kept.

\- Indian Supreme Court rulings did not always apply to Kashmir.

\- The new Union Territory of Ladakh wanted to be so for a long time.

\- Local politicians loved article 370. It gave them the autonomy to get more
money and leverage to keep themselves in power. They often walked a diplomatic
line so as to keep the money lines open from India and keep Pakistan engaged
and enticed.

\- Regional and religious Separatists thrives in J&K, often getting financed
by Pakistan and inciting the people and youth in J&K. These money sources are
being cut off since months now, slowing reducing the illicit finances to these
activities.

\- From what I have seen from interviews of locals, people are happy to angry
about the change, while some are just unhappy with the ‘change’ as they had
adapted to the conditions.

Now, about the way it was done: \- the central government did the necessary
groundwork to identify threats and risks. \- recalled all tourists, pilgrims
and out of state students from the area. \- Sent in army platoons to maintain
law and order situation. \- clamped down on local leadership \- took down the
internet services \- increases alertness along the Pakistan border.

Though I would personally hate to be in this situation, I think I understand
and appreciate why it was done.

Absence of even some of the above measures would have resulted in the spread
of massive misinformation or even propaganda and resulted in violent incidents
on scale. Local politicians and separatists would be the ones to provoke this
as removal of article 370 had a direct impact on their power and influence.
The situation could have been dire and the same opposition parties would have
been singing a different tune as to ‘why were adequate measures not taken’?

The restrictions are already being phased out and I hope the life for general
population normalizes soon.

All this is done, but what next?

The removal of article 370 has had multiple challenges in the Supreme Court,
so it has yet to be seen how it plays out. Also, there is a lot of work that
needs to be done there in the coming years to win over the trust of the local
populace. Security threats may increase - as it can be easily seen how unhappy
Pakistan is with the removal of article 370. Those have to be tackled.

How this move actually works out depends on how the government tackles the
upcoming hurdles, and J&K being a UT would certainly help them.

This is my opinion about the situation and the way it was tacked. Hope I am
not downvoted into oblivion for this. Oh, well. :shrug:

------
agilecharacter
lol, the pakistani propaganda train has reached ycombinator now.

------
pipingdog
> Jammu and Kashmir, an area of 12.5 million people that is claimed by both
> India and Pakistan

It would seem that India has the more practically demonstrable claim.

~~~
eschulz
Would your opinion lead you to believe that India should act quickly and
remedy the unacceptable state of affairs in which the residents find
themselves?

------
salqadri
This article shows that Internet has to be seen as a basic human right. It's
so sad what India is doing to the Kashmiri people.

------
eqtn
What would happen when starlink comes to existence? Would a country ask the
company to shut off that part of satellites?

------
hexagone
Paywalled in India. Text/tldr?

Does the article cover urban and rural areas of Kashmir, Jammu, Ladakh?

~~~
kobiguru
Here enjoy

[https://www.reddit.com/r/Piracy/comments/bab500/bypass_news_...](https://www.reddit.com/r/Piracy/comments/bab500/bypass_news_sitess_paywalls_with_this_firefox/)

------
redpillor
What laws changed with the removal of Article 370? This is a extremely
detailed Before vs Now list. I need your help to make it better.

The only people who are really unhappy with the new law is Terrorists, Three
powerful families, Pakistanis and people who don't know what changed. Let me
put it in simple words. I have mentioned sources for all the points I made.

Before- You can marry a child in Kashmir legally and have sex with her. [Yes,
Child marriage was legal there]

Now - Child marriage is illegal. There is an age limit for marriage just like
anywhere else in India. [This made a lot of paedophiles angry as they won't be
able to have sex with kids legally like before.]

Before - If a Kashmir girl marries a person from anywhere else in India, she
will immediately lose all her properties in Kashmir. It means she will no
longer be the owner of her own house and land. Also, her children can't
inherit any properties and they cannot even get admission in the educational
institutes of Kashmir. This practically means they are systematically banished
from Kashmir forever.

Now - No matter who a Kashmiri girl marries, she will get to keep her own
properties. [This made several people angry that now girls also have right to
property]

Before - Poorest people and low caste discriminated people do not have any
protection laws or reservation or scholarship while all other states of India
had this.

Now - Poorest people and lower caste discriminated people will get very strong
protection laws and reservation and scholarships. [This made landlord like
people angry as they will no longer be able to legally abuse their
servants[read slaves]]

Before - A man can divorce his wife by just saying three words "Talak Talak
Talak" and wife will not get any maintenance money. [This usually means the
wife will be homeless with nowhere to go and no income to survive. Many women
were living as wives even under torture by their husbands in fear what will
happen if her husband says these three words.]

Now - Divorce by "Talak Talak Talak" is a punishable offence, and Maintainance
laws apply. [This made old-minded men and bad husbands angry that their wives
now have rights and is no longer their dependent slave]

Before - The politics in J&K revolved around 3 families holding all the power.
Think like the "Lords" in Game of thrones. These three families live like
kings looting all money. Corruption was at the highest.

Now - The domination by these 3 families are gone, and ground-level new
leaders can emerge. New Anti-corruption laws apply. [This made these 3
families with a net worth in billions of dollars angry that they will be under
probe of anti-corruption laws]

Before - If a person becomes the chief minister of Kashmir, It is legally
required to make a multi-million dollar bungalow at posh locality plus
maintenance plus luxury car plus dozens of servants. All expense to be paid by
the taxpayer of course. And, this person gets to keep all these things for the
entire lifetime. Over $10million was spent for "renovation of bungalow" by the
previous chief minister in the last couple of years.

Now - Chief Minister will not get such special benefits. They will have to
vacate their official residence once they are not in power. And, these
previous chief ministers may be asked to give-back these ill-earned
properties. [These people are angry that they will lose their $50million+
worth bungalows and other benefits. All the chief ministers were from the
three families I mentioned above, and they were the one who made this law that
they should get bungalows]

Before - There were no laws protecting the minorities in J&K. This lead to the
minorities being forced out of their own homes by the majority group over the
past few decades. These majority people did a genocide of minorities in 1990s
and 80s leading to the minorities having to flee for their life.

Now - Minority protection laws apply. [Some majority group is angry that
minorities now have rights]

Before - Homosexuality is illegal and banned.

Now - LGBT laws protect Homosexual people. [Religious people are angry that
homosexuality is being legalized]

Before - Over 100,000 people whose ancestors migrated from Pakistan to J&k
state of India in 1947 did not have voting rights till now. They were
practically stateless. People migrated to any other state in India has full
voting rights, but not for people who migrated to J&K.

Now - Everyone has voting rights. The democratic rights of a person in Kashmir
is the same as the person in India's capital Delhi. [Some politicians are
angry that their lopsided discriminatory politics will no longer work and may
backfire because of these people getting voting rights.]

Before - People of J&K can buy land/do-business/study/settle anywhere in
India, but people of India can't buy land in J&K. This lead to no businesses
being able to invest in J&K thus it remained under-developed while rest of
India progressed. The biggest employer in J&K is the government itself as
there is no way to start businesses, thus no employment. There was also no
private hospitals, no good educational facilities etc.

Now - Both people of J&K and people of rest of India can buy land/do-
business/study/settle anywhere in India including J&K. A lot of companies have
already promised investment in J&K. A lot of big educational institutions are
coming up. Two cities of J&K are getting Metro-trains for easy transportation.
This will give a lot of employment and bring people out of poverty...

    
    
        Mukesh Ambani promises investment in Jammu & Kashmir, says Reliance will set up special team.
        Article 370 gone, investor summit planned in Jammu and Kashmir to boost industry, healthcare.
    
     
    

Before - Kashmiri children did not have the right to education. Only the rich
get educated, others remain poor and illiterate forever.

Now - Right to education is a right of every child. No matter if they are poor
or not, they get access to education. It is compulsory by law for the
government to give education opportunities to each and every child. If a child
is poor, he/she gets free education.

We are talking about over 500 such barbaric laws which will be gone with the
removal of 370. I have only mentioned a few important ones over here, so now
you can get an idea on how gigantic this change is. There are powerful people
who are unhappy with this as it takes away their power, thus they will do
whatever it takes to stop this change.

As a precautionary measure, a lot of police personal from around India was
sent to Kashmir to maintain peace knowing very well that terrorists, Pakistani
army and these politically powerful people will definitely try to disrupt
peace.

Regarding communication blackout, that is the standard policy applied to all
places which have chances of peace-disruption due to people misusing it to
create violence using fake-news and instant-reaction without thinking
rationally. In the previous year itself, at two places in India, the same
policy was applied. That is, one during Jat Riots in Haryana{Near Delhi} and
Sterlite Protest in Tamil Nadu[Southern India]. In the case of Kashmir,
communication blackout of as long as 4 months has happened in 2010 after a
terrorist attack. This is nothing new.

Jammu and Kashmir is also a place with a lot of terrorist activities from
reputed terrorist organizations including ISIS, Lashkar-e-Taiba, JEM, Osama
Bin Laden etc.

    
    
        Kashmir war fears grow as Pakistan cleric close to Osama bin Laden tells followers to wage jihad against India.
        "We Still Have 30,000-40,000" Terrorists, Admits Pakistan Prime Minister Imran Khan
        Article 370 : Imran Khan warns of another Pulwama terrorist attack[Pak pm threatening a terror strike subtly]
    
     
    

There was a major terrorist attack this February itself which killed a lot of
people. Taking precautions during such major change is necessary, the
alternative is that hundreds of people will die.

So, I suggest everyone to think it through on what they think is important. In
my opinion, this is the best thing that has happened in J&K. This will bring
lot of stability, investment and development. There is a risk of terrorist
strikes, even Pakistan's Prime Minister has hinted it.

------
statguy
I think it is pretty clear that the Indian Government rushed into this because
this is what their Hindu-nationalistic base wants - subdue the only Muslim
Indian majority state. However, just like their ill-fated demonetization
policy from 2016, they haven't given a whole lot of thought to what happens
the day after. How long will they keep these restrictions? How far are they
prepared to go if there is a mass uprising?

~~~
kobiguru
Preventative measures are necessary for the kind of thing it can spark. The
change is not like demonetisation rather a well thought and long-held demand
of the present government. It has been there in the election manifesto since
they started publishing election manifesto.

The new york times is entitled to its view on how India's elected government
ought to run the country but that does not mean the government is going to
forgo one of THE demands of the party founders.

The other thing that is ignored is that for seventy years Kashmir has gotten
the biggest share of the central government's outlays for states and they have
nothing to show for. Doing the same thing expecting a different result is bad
in any environment.

I am not sure if this will work or not but what I am sure is that the previous
status quo did not work. Moreover, how long would the entire state's ambition
be held hostage because of an intolerant minority in four districts in the
Kashmir valley?

Edit:

"Intorelent Minority" comes from Taleb's essay/book on the skin in the game

here is the link here is what I meant by Intorelant minority. I am sorry if It
came as bigoted but I would call any small group of people this

[https://medium.com/incerto/the-most-intolerant-wins-the-
dict...](https://medium.com/incerto/the-most-intolerant-wins-the-dictatorship-
of-the-small-minority-3f1f83ce4e15)

~~~
owaislone
> Preventative measures are necessary for the kind of thing it can spark.

To prevent what exactly? Political dissent?

Why can't people in Kashmir right now talk to each other over phone? Why can't
they call their loved ones outside the region? Why isn't anyone else allowed
to contact them? Why are lawyers, professors and activists being jailed? Why
are some people not being allowed to leave the country? Why can't Indian
politicians visit the region without being detained and sent back?

What exactly is all this preventing?

~~~
kobiguru
Okay, let's say they lift the ban here is how things will transpire.

First, Pakistan's ISPR would start a massive disinformation campaign aided by
the separatist who lost all their influence with the present government but
has a great following among the Kashmiri Youth.

Then there would immense violence with many dead while the "leaders" and there
loved ones stay in a five-star hotel in Delhi.

To prevent a loss of life they had to do it. But it's slowly being downgraded
and the curfew is absent in all but 4 districts of erstwhile Jammu and Kashmir

Edit:

I agree with you, that it is bad for people to have no communication channel.

~~~
9nGQluzmnq3M
C'mon, stop bringing Pakistan into this. India has mismanaged Kashmir so badly
that the majority of the population _wants to leave India_ \-- and not to join
Pakistan, mind you, but to be independent.

~~~
iamshs
Pakistan is a big part of problem here by supporting militants and terrorists.
Material, money and training support. Let’s not absolve Pakistan here. They
invaded independent Kashmir in 1947 and Kashmir had to let go its independence
to get support from India against Pakistan’s war.

~~~
nashashmi
They never invaded. Locals rebelled against the ruler for being independent.
And asked to become part Pakistan. Army came in upon request from locals.

~~~
iamshs
Nah, tribals were armed by Pakistan. Tribals from Pakhtun invaded Kashmir.
Locals actually helped repel the tribal attacks. Let’s not overlook stated
facts.

~~~
debuggerpk
Like you said, let's not overlook the facts. The fact is, India and Pakistan
had visa on arrival up until 1974. The fact is, people from both sides of the
border could still get naturalised citizens across the border up until early
70s. The fact is, both India and Pakistan did exactly the same things. Just
look at the accession of Junagadh and Hyderabad estate into India. India got
away with it because both the states were land locked and Pakistan couldn't
help. If accession of Kashmir's raja is right, so was the declarations by
nawab of junagadh and hyderabad. The fact is, the 1947 war ended with UN
intervention which demanded plebiscite for kashmir. India had agreed, but so
far failed to conduct that. Not only that, India doesn't even allow UN
observers, while Pakistan do. I can throw in a lot of facts in here.

~~~
iamshs
Hyderabad was a land locked pocket, and one of the conditions of partition was
states aligning with Pakistan to be contiguous. How is Hyderabad contiguous to
Pakistan? Junagadh claimed to be contiguous to Pakistan through bullshit
reasoning of sea. So viability of these pockets was not feasible. India took
over Goa the same way too. But Pakistan invaded Balochistan and Kashmir and
forcibly occupied these territories, so it is not 'exactly the same things'.
BTW, Pakistan did try to send weapons to Hyderabad through America.

First condition of plebiscite is withdrawal of Pakistani forces from occupied
territories, 73 years and still waiting. India doesn't allow UN observers
because they have outlived their utility, as LoC has been codified between
Pakistan and India through Simla Agreement in 1971.

------
godelmachine
Why hasn’t this been flagged yet? This post violates all guidelines of
HackerNews.

~~~
reaperducer
Because the article is actually a pretty interesting look at how reliant the
world has become on the internet.

 _“I don’t know when to sleep, when to wake up, what to do with my life,” he
said during a rare foray outside on Monday evening for Eid al-Adha, the
holiest festival in Islam. “There is no life without internet, even in
Kashmir.”_

~~~
kappi
this link violates all the guidelines of hackernews...i recommend taking it
down.. it is a political hit job hinduphobic article thinly disguised as
internet shutdown news.

------
kappi
Don't believe everything NYT writes. they have their own agenda.
[https://twitter.com/hussain_imtiyaz/status/11602217869500989...](https://twitter.com/hussain_imtiyaz/status/1160221786950098944)

~~~
chopete
These could be old videos.

I always wondered why doesn't the government install a few hundred web cams
across the big cities for the rest of world, including the journalists to see
the reality. Why do only the journalists have to travel there and take
pictures of whatever corner they want and tell whatever story they want to
tell.

~~~
owaislone
Definitely old videos. At least most of them. Also the account sharing the
video is a high ranking police office. Not sure why an Indian police officer
is a reputable source in this situation but NYT, BCC, HuffPost, AJE,
BusinessInsider, etc are not.

