

Belgium watchdogs: Apple is 'deaf to demands' over consumer rights - aynlaplant
http://www.zdnet.com/belgium-watchdogs-apple-is-deaf-to-demands-over-consumer-rights-7000009816/

======
Aardwolf
I know some guy who had to live a week without his Apple laptop after the
power supply broke. He went to the store immediately, then they kept his
laptop for a week.

Meanwhile, I had a new component of my own built desktop PC broken, went with
it to the store and said it didn't work, and they just took it and immediately
gave me a new one without any questions asked or even checking the faulty one.
Then I also asked if I could buy a PC speaker to hear the motherboard beeps,
and they gave a tiny speaker with two wires, for free!

Both of this was in Belgium. So yes, something is wrong with Apple's warranty
in Belgium, compared to other shops.

~~~
huxley
Do you mean the power connector or something internal, rather than power
supply? Because the power supply on a Macbook is an external AC adapter, no
reason at all for the Macbook to be kept.

~~~
vetinari
In Powerbook era, the connector on the PSU cable had no stress reliever. As a
result, the cable often broke (I went through three of them, until I got third
party PSU with proper cable).

The thing is, that if you claim warranty on Apple product in Europe, they will
take it and you have to wait until mothership ships replacement part. The guy
the OP mentions might not turn in the whole computer, but what good it makes
when your battery is empty and you don't have another PSU.

In related experience, I once had harddrive failure in Powerbook. I had to
wait for three weeks, until replacement came, if I wanted to have it serviced
under warranty. Or outright buy the replacement part and pay for the service.

Of course, I'm no longer Apple customer.

------
beedogs
This is the same thing they got punished for in Italy, too. In fact, Italy has
fined them _twice_ for this crap.

[http://gigaom.com/2012/12/21/italy-fines-apple-again-over-
ap...](http://gigaom.com/2012/12/21/italy-fines-apple-again-over-applecare/)

~~~
bitcartel
I think if the Belgian consumer group is successful in it's case, Apple will
have to seriously consider complying with EU law, or face one lawsuit after
another in each member state. It would be a public relations nightmare.

------
tluyben2
Offtopic; just curious if anyone knows.

Edit: apparently I wrote some unreadable stuff here :) So simple rewrite:

\- people accidentally drop liquid (bottle of water, coke, coffee, tea) on
their macbooks

\- people bring the laptop to Apple (or official partners)

\- Apple says (rightfully so) that it's not covered by their warranty

\- Apple says (in all cases, over 10 i've seen) that the motherboard is gone
and needs replacement, which costs E800-E1200 depending on your Macbook

\- after repair Apple (partners) refuses to return the broken motherboard to
the paying client

Now, i'm saying that in the cases people found it too expensive and didn't
have the macbook repaired (by Apple) that the motherboard was not broken at
all and fixable within a few hours by themselves or friends (like me).

So my question: why do they _refuse_ to return the old, broken motherboard to
someone who owns the macbook and is paying to have it fixed?

~~~
Samuel_Michon
Dear Tycho, I'm well versed in English and Dutch, but I have no clue what
you're trying to say.

As for dropping quantities of liquid on your Mac: don't do it, or at least get
yourself some proper computer insurance. Apple's standard warranty doesn't
cover accidents, AppleCare doesn't cover them either. If you bring your water
damaged computer to an Apple Store (try Amsterdam), they might take pity on
you and replace your computer on the spot, but they're in no way obligated to
do so.

~~~
tluyben2
I guess I shouldn't write HN comments and have a meeting at the same time :)
Rewrote it; hope it's clearer now. I'm just curious if anyone saw this
behavior.

An official Apple partner repair shop close to Utrecht actually repaired my
macbook which got over drenched because of a cat jumping in a bucket accident
:) No questions asked and within the Apple care warranty, but they too refused
to return the motherboard upon request.

------
smashu
"within the European Union, two years' warranty must be provided for products
free of charge"

There is no such thing, the law refers to something else. Check this:
<http://www.apple.com/uk/legal/statutory-warranty/>

~~~
vacri
There is some such thing - that page lists an EU-mandated free warranty period
of two years for some defects.

~~~
drucken
vacri is correct.

However, there is more than sufficient misleading ambiguity on that page which
contradicts EU law (and likely EU Member State consumer or contract law).

EU law [1] states that a minimum period of 6 months is always available
wherein defects that arise after delivery are assumed to have existed at or
before delivery unless proven otherwise.

EU law provides for a Member State optional notification obligation on
consumers that they have to inform the seller of a fault within 2 months. The
UK has chosen not to exercise this notification. Belgium, for example, allows
for contracts to specify the existence, length of the notification period (not
less than 2 months) and consequences of lack of notification [2].

Similarly, in the case of the UK, "claim period" is ambiguous because under UK
Sale of Goods Act 1979, consumers have 6 years to take a claim to court for
faulty goods in England, Wales and Northern Ireland (5 years in Scotland) [3].

[1] - [http://eur-
lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=CELEX:...](http://eur-
lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=CELEX:31999L0044:en:HTML)

[2] -
[http://ec.europa.eu/consumers/cons_int/safe_shop/guarantees/...](http://ec.europa.eu/consumers/cons_int/safe_shop/guarantees/CSD_2007_EN_final.pdf)

[3] - [http://www.which.co.uk/consumer-rights/sale-of-
goods/underst...](http://www.which.co.uk/consumer-rights/sale-of-
goods/understanding-the-sale-of-goods-act/your-rights/)

------
Bvalmont
It's a good thing they are looking into this.

I always figured that these are not "official" stores thus having limited
stock and resupply makes them willing to fight consumers over every small
repair, replacement and warranty issue.

When these Apple Stores are charging money for repairs that should have been
under warranty or pushing their Apple Care products by stating you only have 1
year warranty they are basically taking advantage of uneducated consumers.

Apple stores in Belgium are an extremely negative experience to say the least,
I hope this will change eventually.

Until then you should buy your Apple products through the online apple store,
no problems there. ( if you happen to be Belgian )

~~~
Luc
> Apple stores in Belgium are an extremely negative experience to say the
> least, I hope this will change eventually.

There are no Apple stores in Belgium yet, only resellers working on scary thin
margins. They've been consolidating in preparation for the arrival of Apple's
own stores, but I doubt it will be enough for them to last very much longer.

------
rickmb
Although they are absolutely right, it should also be said that Apple is far
from unique. Many electronics shops and manufactures have warranty policies
and try to sell extra warranty whilst EU consumer laws already mandate minimal
warranty standards. As a consumer you almost always have to explicitly assert
your rights or you'll get screwed.

Apple has just made itself a high profile target with it's AppleCare
Protection Plan, and it doesn't help that Apple is being systematically
uncooperative when consumers claim their warranty rights.

~~~
vacri
It doesn't help either that Apple markets itself as premium quality hardware
rather than cheap junk. If you were buying cheap chinese knock-offs, you
wouldn't gain much sympathy when they didn't honour the two-year minimum, but
when you buy 'the premium brand', it's a different story.

------
fusiongyro
I do hope they eventually turn their attention to Google's complete opacity. I
still find it absurd that it is impossible to call Google about a problem with
nearly any of their services.

~~~
tluyben2
I came here to say this; it's completely weird that Google escapes this; even
if you make money for them or pay for their services. Probably because the
'buy X' => 'support X' is not as clear with Google, but their practices are
somewhat weird. I had good and bad experiences with adwords, adsense, apps,
gmail, analytics and youtube. Mostly bad and all have in common that you
actually cannot contact someone who will help you. Vague answers why you have
been shot down and no-one seems to care unless they have been affected
themselves.

Seems worse than Apple to me, at least I can walk into a shop and just get an
answer or get annoyed until they fix it (and they do, no complaints here).

------
rimantas
Doesn't AppleCare cover a bit more than simple warranty?

~~~
nicholassmith
It does indeed, it gets you additional support, coverage for repairs arising
after delivery and so on. Apple even has a handy chart:
<http://www.apple.com/uk/legal/statutory-warranty/>

~~~
sdoering
Well for example, the first point ("Defects arising after customer takes
delivery") is not quite right.

At least in Germany, if the defect is not the fault of the consumer (dropped
tablet/iphone), producer has to repair. And that up to two years.

So Apple is intentionally misleading consumers here, to trick them, to buy
this care-product.

But on the other hand - it is a tax on peoples stupidity. If you do not know
your basic rights as a consumer, my empathy for you being tricked into such a
deal is actually on the same level as my sympathy for apple, attempting such a
trick: Next to zero.

~~~
nicholassmith
Interesting, I thought it was only for specific cases (failed components etc).

But it's still not a tax on stupidity, it does give you more outside of the
hardware repair situation.

