
Eating less and more than needed on alternate days prolongs life (2006) - alderz
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16529878
======
nabla9
I read from somewhere that even 16 hours is enough for the benefits of
Intermittent fasting.

Has anyone done studies with Buddhist monks in Vipassana tradition? They have
rule not to eat after midday. Obviously many of them cheat different ways but
if you can find the hardcorce monks and monasteries, you would have several
thousands (possibly tens of thousands) subjects who have already been
following the regime for several decades.

~~~
Florin_Andrei
I think it's a lot easier if you just flip that rule. Don't eat before 1pm or
something like that. Basically, skip breakfast. Seems a lot easier, and the
fasting interval should be about the same.

Perhaps I'm biased because this is what I naturally do.

~~~
randlet
I've been doing this for a couple years now (only coffee/water before 12pm and
no food after 7-8pm). It's a very effective method of calorie restriction for
me.

Only eating before 1pm would be absolute torture for me!

~~~
mwpmaybe
I just started doing this a few weeks ago, along with counting calories during
my "feeding" window (which I actually try to restrict to six hours). So far so
good.

I find I'm actually more successful at counting calories on this schedule. I
think it's easier for me to completely abstain during the fasting period, and
I'm less tempted to snack with lunch and dinner so close together. I've been
planning and allocating my calories like I never have before, even though I've
tried many carb- and calorie-counting schemes in the past.

I'm also toying around with taking a little MCT oil in the morning to help
with cravings and mental focus and give me a little keto boost. It's unclear
to me whether or not this defeats the purpose of the fast. Many people seem to
think it's fine ("fat fasting") and maybe even a good idea, but I'm not yet
convinced one way or the other.

------
reasonattlm
Slows glaucoma:
[https://dx.doi.org/10.1038/srep33950](https://dx.doi.org/10.1038/srep33950)

Effects in long-lived mice:
[https://doi.org/10.1016/j.exger.2013.06.009](https://doi.org/10.1016/j.exger.2013.06.009)

Protective of the aging heart:
[https://doi.org/10.1016/j.freeradbiomed.2009.10.003](https://doi.org/10.1016/j.freeradbiomed.2009.10.003)

Benefits without calorie reduction:
[https://dx.doi.org/10.1073/pnas.1035720100](https://dx.doi.org/10.1073/pnas.1035720100)

In nematodes, looking at signaling:
[http://dx.doi.org/10.1038/nature07583](http://dx.doi.org/10.1038/nature07583)

And so on. There is a lot more out there on this topic:

[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=alternate+day+fast...](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=alternate+day+fasting)

Researchers still have a very long way to go in order to understand the
calorie restriction and intermittent fasting responses completely. In order to
do that one pretty much as to have a complete map of cellular biochemistry.
Don't hold your breath waiting for that to happen; decades is a very
reasonable expectation, I think, based on watching progress in understanding
sirtuins over more than a decade, which is just one very thin slice of a very
large problem. Practical rejuvenation based on repair of damage after the SENS
vision (such as via clearing senescent cells) will be a going concern well
before researchers can fully explain calorie restriction in the context of
age-related changes and cause and effect in the operation of mammalian
biochemistry.

~~~
dualogy
> In order to do that one pretty much as to have a complete map of cellular
> biochemistry. Don't hold your breath waiting for that to happen;

A point well worth emphasizing. Probably would help if more people interested
in such stuff (whether academics or private enthusiasts) started to recognize
the importance of the biochemical side and striving for an ever more complete
understanding of it, rather than piling epidemiological and observational
long-term "study" upon study.. these are valuable, too, granted, but just like
in software development, I suspect there's a lot of castles being built on
profoundly muddy/slippery/incomplete foundations

------
vannevar
This seems flaky:

"Since May 2003 we have experimented with alternate day calorie restriction,
one day consuming 20-50% of estimated daily caloric requirement and the next
day ad lib eating, and have observed health benefits starting in as little as
two weeks, in _insulin resistance, asthma, seasonal allergies, infectious
diseases of viral, bacterial and fungal origin (viral URI, recurrent bacterial
tonsillitis, chronic sinusitis, periodontal disease), autoimmune disorder
(rheumatoid arthritis), osteoarthritis, symptoms due to CNS inflammatory
lesions (Tourette 's, Meniere's) cardiac arrhythmias (PVCs, atrial
fibrillation), menopause related hot flashes_." (Emphasis mine.)

Are they still talking about mice? Or experiments on people?

------
rubicon33
I have long believed, due entirely to anecdotal evidence, that restricting
calories and eating less is one of the best ways to add years to your life. It
seems that eating is inherently stressful for the body. Though obviously
necessary, eating is something that we should strive to minimize. Any more
than necessary, and the stress induced from digestion, and inflammatory
molecules, damages the body and undermines our ability to fight infection.

~~~
Florin_Andrei
> _It seems that eating is inherently stressful for the body._

It seems that eating 3 meals a day, every day, like clockwork, is not the best
strategy overall (to say nothing of perpetual snacking in between). I think
some signal starts to show above the noise in the data, indicating that our
metabolism is optimized for a less regular schedule - or at least a schedule
interspersing times of abundance with intervals of constraint.

If that's the case, then we have to simulate and replace the external
constraints of Stone Age yore with voluntary restraint.

~~~
cagenut
right but "educate people and then they will use their will power" never even
remotely works.

imho the next step is to learn how to measure in much greater detail (and on a
personal level) where thresholds for immune, organ, hormone, etc responses
occur. Then use that to design and customize diets.

Essentially I wanna capacity plan my carb/sugar intake to keep it just about
20% shy of of triggering an insulin response. That's just one potential
example.

------
zeamaize
This sort of result has been showed repeatedly. We really need more (and
better) nutrition education. The level of obesity and overeating in our
society is astounding. I'd be surprised if most people could even implement
basic calorie counting.

~~~
jackvalentine
Having tried implementing calorie counting... how exactly do you do it?

You either cook everything yourself and weigh every ingredient. Or you buy
totally packaged meals (Lite 'n Easy, etc), or you buy fast food (And even
then, the calorie counts in fast food are... inaccurate at best).

If I go to the corner shop and get a sandwich I have no idea what's in it and
there is no accurate way to estimate.

While it's good to be aware just how energy dense foods are (like muffins...
aka breakfast cakes) there is no method that I'd consider both achievable for
the average person to consistently do AND accurate enough to be considered
'counting' as opposed to washy estimates.

~~~
flat6turbo
> _If I go to the corner shop and get a sandwich I have no idea what 's in it
> and there is no accurate way to estimate._

uh, why not? i'll do it right now for you off the top of my head, which anyone
can do after they look them up for a while.

100g of white bread = ~ 250 calories / 2 tbsp of mayo = ~ 200 calories / 4 oz
of deli turkey = ~ 100 calories / 1 tbsp mustard = ~ 10 calories / 2 slices (2
oz.) of cheese = ~ 240 calories / 2 slices of tomato = ~ 20 calories / 1 slice
of lettuce = ~ 5 calories / 1 bag of chips = ~ 280 calories (probably on the
bag)

there. 1105 calories total. is that perfect? no, but is that useful? yes, a
whole lot more useful than "it's too hard, so i might as well not do it."

as an aside: this is why people are fat. a sandwich and a bag of chips is
insulin-spiking can easily be over 1k calories, and most people would probably
guess it's 300 calories, and 'not fattening', whatever that means.

throw in a soda and you've got a recipe (literally) for disaster.

~~~
jackvalentine
You're literally guessing the quantities of the ingredients of the sandwich.
(and mixing measurements... grams AND ounces?)

How is that counting? That's my point.

You're getting a vague idea of what you're eating but it is in no way calorie
counting.

~~~
flat6turbo
mixing g and oz - that's a novel and interesting excuse to avoid the work of
weight loss. usually people just blame their thyroid but this bullshit excuse
at least has some kind of passable scientific pedantry behind it. i'll have to
file that one for later.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Analysis_paralysis](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Analysis_paralysis)

~~~
jackvalentine
Who said anything about avoiding weight loss?

I've had far more success just keeping a simple food diary and going "wow I
eat a lot of cakes" and cutting them out.

I have a theory that 'calorie counters' are shockingly inaccurate (one other
poster mentioned a 25% margin is 'fine'!) and their success comes from the
very act of attempting to quantify what they're eating being a defacto food
diary.

~~~
coldtea
> _I have a theory that 'calorie counters' are shockingly inaccurate (one
> other poster mentioned a 25% margin is 'fine'!)_

Accurate or inaccurate is only meaningful related to the task and its
requirements. 25% can be totally acceptable margin of error for the task. We
use even bigger margins in lots of ventures (determining which startup will
have a succesful exit to fund, for one).

And yes, the mere act of quantifying helps. But quantifying with even 25%
error is still better than just writing down "ate 5 cakes", especially if one
doesn't eat too many repeats of the same food.

Not sure in what reasoning one can complain for a method with 25% margin of
error (say), but be OK with a method like "5 cakes" which still applies
quantification, just in an even more vague and hazy sense.

5 cakes is much worse than 5 carrots, for example, but with merely writing
down how many you ate, you have to rely on a far more relative guesstimation
of their relative harm than you would be if you were counting their calories
and being off by 25%).

~~~
jackvalentine
> Not sure in what reasoning one can complain for a method with 25% margin of
> error (say), but be OK with a method like "5 cakes" which still applies
> quantification, just in an even more vague and hazy sense.

One method implies rigour and the other one is honest about what it is setting
out to do

~~~
coldtea
But you seem to be the only one assuming and/or bringing up rigor in this
discussion.

Everybody said it's a quick ballpark figure / back of the envelope style
calculation.

The mere fact "cake bad, carrots good" everybody knows. It's not much
information concerning "Did I ate too much today?". One can have a caloric
budget and stay within it (more or less) without having to be perfect in
measurements (or sticking to carrot because it's easier to know its light).

------
dannylandau
A more interesting study if there has ever been one conducted under close
clinical supervision is to follow centenarians (100+ years) eating habits.

This is the study that comes close --
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_Zone](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_Zone)

------
clishem
> The subjects were in a residence for old people, and all were in perfect
> health and over 65.

~~~
HeavenBanned
If this is true, how would we incorporate this into eating habits for children
from birth to death? How much of a public health campaign would be required?

I'm only skeptical because we just barely changed the "11 servings of bread"
pyramid...so, who knows.

~~~
kk_cz
as a father of very young kids I sometimes feel like they are already aware of
this. Some days they literally don't want to eat anything (even a food that
they described as their favorite the day before), while on other days it's
sometimes hard to believe how much can such a small human ingest.

------
11thEarlOfMar
Just a guess, but if we evolved as hunter-gatherers, meals would likely have
been much less predictable, particularly in Northern winters. So perhaps our
metabolisms are tuned to an irregular intake and the regular
breakfast/lunch/dinner timing just throws it off.

------
roystonvassey
In case anyone's interested, I did a 10-week IF experiment that yielded mixed
results.[1]

[1][http://telegra.ph/My-experiment-with-IF-03-09](http://telegra.ph/My-
experiment-with-IF-03-09)

~~~
Icedcool
Thanks for sharing.

I've taken up 24 hour fasts once a week, and have seen a ton of benefits. From
increased mental clarity, to weight loss, and body overall feels better.

I kicked it off because I'm big into taoism and it supports my practices.

You could try intermittently adding cold showers to support your weight loss.
(The benefits of cold showers I've seen are a ton, and I'm not totally sold on
that it is consistently good for everyone.)

Or you could attempt ketosis style diets on the days you are fasting. That
would be as simple as when you are intermittently fasting, to eat fats only,
instead of protein or grains.

Good luck!

~~~
roystonvassey
Thanks! I've tried cold water baths in the past too but not with IF.

I should but from a weight loss maximisation objective, it appears ketosis is
the way to go. Planning to start and document that beginning April.

------
df3
All of the participants in this study were over the age of 65. I'm curious
what the effects of fasting would be for someone younger? I'm 26 and want to
do everything I can to improve my lifespan. Most longevity research seems to
target older generations.

Do I have to starve myself now or is there an age where the benefits really
start to kick in?

~~~
rando444
Intermittent fasting / calorie restriction has a wide range of health
benefits, and give your age, there's no reason not to start now.. provided of
course that you're getting a proper amount of calories in your diet for your
activity level.

Most longevity research targets older people because they are the group that
is most interested.. and unfortunately by that time it's mostly too late to do
anything significant, so of course the best thing is to start now.

If anything you'll benefit more by starting now, because as you get older your
body becomes more difficult to change (for lack of a better phrase)

At any rate, forget the research, focus on yourself.

The most important thing you can do is get regular exercise. Use your body,
let your body naturally work it's way to better health. A sedentary lifestyle
will kill you quicker than anything else.

Second most important thing (IMHO) is trying to limit the amount of stress in
your life. Get out of stressful situations, focus on yourself, meditate, don't
let yourself get bothered by things that you can't change or aren't worth your
time. This is not only good for yourself mentally, but will help your immune
system, lower your body's inflammation levels, etc.

If you do these things you'll be well on your way to living a long healthy
life. Then you can add whatever other health recommendations come along your
way, olive oil, the occasional glass of red wine, etc.

~~~
df3
Thanks for this encouraging reply!

------
Jaruzel
I'm almost 45. Guessing that it's too late for me to adopt this?

Also, If i _had_ adopted it at ~20 years old, would that mean I could have
potentially lived up to ~140 years old? That seems an extreme lifespan
extension.

~~~
zardo
The subjects were all over 65, if anything you're too young.

------
wapz
Does anyone have experience with this? I can't imagine eating a "similar
amount" with one day being healthy, low-calorie foods and the other day being
junk food can be good for your health.

~~~
scottharveyco
The idea is to still eat healthy food on both days but one day you just eat
less. So one day you might only have dinner and the next day you will have 3
or 4 meals all of which are still made up of healthy foods.

------
hamilyon2
Every about weight loss should mention sleep. Every study should control for
it, a mere hour a day can do wonders to your well being

------
norswap
> Restricting caloric intake to 60-70% of normal adult weight maintenance
> requirement prolongs lifespan 30-50% and confers near perfect health across
> a broad range of species.

Am I the only one for whom this ends all kind of warnings?

First, how can eating less than required to maintain mass be healthy? Second,
"confers near perfect health" seems like a hell of a claim.

~~~
coldtea
> _First, how can eating less than required to maintain mass be healthy?_

Because you don't need to maintain the full adult mass you carry. In the end
you'll find a new balance, albeit skinnier. It's not like you'll end to 0
pounds.

In other words, the "normal adult weight maintenance" target weight is not
that normal, and not optimally healthy.

------
Mandatum
I tend to fast out of laziness and drink coffee, snack on nuts to supplement
afternoon drowsiness. Then eat way too much in the evening.

~~~
plaguuuuuu
Nuts are extremely calorie dense. They're also very healthy, but yeah - lots
of calories.

~~~
Mandatum
Well I can't exactly eat 2000 calories (unless it's a super calorie dense) in
a single meal, but there's at least a period of 14 hours in between eating
(aside from coffee).

~~~
kbart
Coffee can have up to several hundred calories[0] if drank with sugar, milk,
syrups etc., so that doesn't say much.

0\. [https://www.thestreet.com/story/12846402/4/ranked-
the-10-hig...](https://www.thestreet.com/story/12846402/4/ranked-
the-10-highest-calorie-drinks-at-starbucks.html)

~~~
Mandatum
Drink mine black, thanks though.

------
rawfan
A nutritionist friend of mine has been doing this for years. At least it
doesn't have any negative site effects.

------
laichzeit0
This is bad news for bodybuilders. How long does poor Arnold have left? I mean
pro bodybuilders are eating around 4000 calories just to _maintain_ their
weight at about 200lbs. Eating anything less than that and you're getting
smaller. Let's not even talk about powerlifters..

~~~
tonyedgecombe
Arnold is 69 and looks in pretty good shape to me. When you get to that age
lack of muscle mass is probably a bigger issue.

------
johndoe4589
Put simply digestion is one of the most expensive tasks for the body. It makes
sense that giving the whole digestive system a break will free up energy in
other parts of the body.

------
jwhitlark
This paper seems to be from 2006?

~~~
alderz
Yes, my bad. I have edited the title.

