

Apple CEO calls Times supplier report "patently false and offensive" - ttt_
http://arstechnica.com/apple/news/2012/01/apple-ceo-calls-times-supplier-report-patently-false-and-offensive.ars

======
jpalomaki
Apple is trying to be transparent about their suppliers and the working
conditions there. This is pretty much voluntary, to my knowledge nobody is
forcing Apple to release this information.

Now Apple is getting attacked and people are using the facts from their own
report as ammunition. Other companies that either don't care at all (don't
audit their suppliers) or don't publish this kind of information are safe from
this kind of bad publicity.

I don't think this kind of activism is very productive. I would like to see
more focus on the things Apple has managed to improve within their suppliers.
Some people seem to demand Apple to stop working with suppliers not complying
with the regulations. Is this really the best way to improve workers
conditions there? The logic seems to be that if Apple is no longer buying from
that supplier, it must do some improvements to stay in business. What if it
doesn't, what if it just finds another client that does not care?

------
badclient
From their supplier responsibility
site(<http://www.apple.com/supplierresponsibility/>):

 _We insist that all of our suppliers provide safe working conditions_

Notice the word "insist". How about _requiring_ it? There is a massive
difference between insisting and requiring.

~~~
jarcoal
In this world, in this moment, if you want companies to "require" all their
suppliers, and their supplier's suppliers, and so on, to have safe working
conditions, then computers won't be manufactured. Not a single one, from any
brand.

Hate to sound like a fanboy, but the very fact that Apple has addressed this
issue has put them above and beyond the entire industry.

~~~
protomyth
This type of thing isn't just and electronics industry problem. Running a
grain elevator isn't really that safe, and big grain companies spend a lot of
time on safety issues for a lot of the same reasons Apple does, but it doesn't
prevent the deaths that happen every year (yes, every year in the US). These
aren't overall farming deaths, I'm just talking grain elevators.

It isn't as sexy as Apple and it is a problem in the US, but everyone needs to
eat. The other electronics companies are probably pretty happy Apple is taking
all the heat. It should be interesting when the Brazil plant opens.

------
redthrowaway
I see Jobs' Reality Distortion Field is still healthy in Cupertino.

To be fair, this isn't an Apple problem; it's the tech industry's dirty little
secret. From massive environmental damage as a result of rare earth metal
extraction, to deplorable conditions at the factories that make our consumer
electronics, to the health calamities at the places where electronics are
stripped and recycled for their valuable metals, ours is not the clean
industry we like to pretend it is. So again, it's not an Apple thing, but
Cook's crocodile tears and affected "outrage" at someone airing our dirty
laundry is pretty transparent.

------
pbreit
Title is a bit misleading. The actual quote is "Any suggestion that we don’t
care is patently false and offensive to us".

~~~
tedsuo
And with apple, they might even be serious about that "patently" part.

------
wes-exp
For all the focus on the negative, what about the fact that millions of people
are being lifted up out of abject poverty?

Even a long-hours factory job with some safety risks could be better than
facing starvation. Not saying conditions couldn't be improved, but, just to
think about the situation in the bigger picture.

------
tsunamifury
Well I find it patently offensive that your executives make statements like
"we aren't here to solve America's problems" when you are an incorporated
United States company whose primary userbase is STILL in the United States.
You benefit from the freedom, support, and infrastructure set up by a US
democracy, and you hire much of your high level talent from the US.

Apple may be a multinational and it may not have customers just in the US --
but you have 60 some odd billion dollars in your bank accounts and you turn to
people suffering, starving and dying (out of house and home and not looking
for free hand outs but a chance to work hard) and say "we aren't here to solve
your problems."

Do you not comprehend the arrogance of such a statement?

~~~
gareim
Apple pays its employees much better than what they would have been paid
working at something else. That's why people flock there for a chance to work.
My parents and grandparents are those exact people that would have had a much
better quality of life if they had been given a chance to work at places like
Foxconn. Luckily, they were able to escape China.

If you are so against it all (basic economics, the history of the world, etc),
then don't buy products from Apple or any other company that uses Chinese
manufacturing.

Apple has done far more for people than what you will ever do and you have the
audacity to critique them. Do you not comprehend the arrogance of your
statements?

~~~
tsunamifury
My statement was not at all about China, but specifically about their attitude
towards the United States.

~~~
gareim
My point still holds valid since any company that uses Chinese manufacturing
instead of US manufacturing would come under fire from you. The thing is,
Apple can't get the results they want from companies here and so they go where
they can (there was an article about this recently on HN). American consumers
get the products they want, China gets the opportunity to improve the quality
of life for its citizens, and Apple continues to do what it wants. It's a win
win win situation.

You're arguing for companies to use US manufacturing and that's a naive view
in the long run. Any student of economics will understand that it's a GOOD
thing for the market to not be controlled the way you want (arbitrary limits
on where Apple should and should not go). Placing restrictions would make the
market not as competitive as it could be and just result in greater
inefficiency.

------
nirvana
EVERYBODY DOES IT

Foxconn makes everybody's stuff. Yet I don't remember ever hearing about how
the Xbox is made with "Slave labor". Nor have I ever heard about Microsoft
publishing a public report on auditing the conditions of workers in its supply
chain.

I'm not bashing Microsoft. I'm just pointing out that the people who keep
bringing up this issue are also the same people who use any excuse they can
find to claim that Apple is evil, or Apple is going to fail, or whatever.

Frankly, I think the "Supplier Responsibility" report was a mistake. It is
Apple giving in to the nonsense from people who are just throwing mud.

Foxconn's jobs are better than most in China, and when they have openings they
have massive numbers of people who apply to fill them. These people are not
masochists! Obviously Foxconn is offering them a better job than they would
get elsewhere.

ITS JUST POLITICS

I think the bottom line on all this is that it is the political left in
america, and american unions, picking a target that is high profile and raking
muck to try and punish them for using nonunion workers.

We've seen this before-- Target and Walmart have nearly the same policies, but
Target is more unionized, while Walmart is less so, and thus we've had a
decade of attacks against Walmart from unions.

You don't see the NYT criticizing Sony for using the same workers. You don't
see the NYT attacking Target. Or Dell, or HP, or Cisco, or Motorola, or Nokia,
or RIM. But, Walmart, Apple, and other high profile company can expect to be
regularly smeared.

BUT DON'T POLLUTE HACKER NEWS

But really, is union mud throwing appropriate for Hacker News? Scratch that.
Is _ANY_ mud throwing appropriate for Hacker News? Every time Apple comes up
some jackwagon is going on about "stupid sheep buying the iThings made with
slave labor."

It doesn't belong on Hacker News. This has nothing to do with hacking,
startups, or even technology.

It's a purely political issue, and it only servers to pollute the environment
here, making discussion of things relevant to hackers less prevalent.

Its getting rare to find stories on HN on hacks, engineering techniques, etc.
About the best I can regularly find are "8 ways something helped my startup"
and "heres what's happened with my startup" and the occasional "here's a new
open source package relevant to hackers." But the least relevant to me of any
of those type articles is an order of magnitude better than this "apple uses
slave labor" BS.

EDITS

Edit: RE: Unions. Took out an editorial comment about unions because I don't
really mean to start a debate about them. But when it was in, I was not
talking about cost differences, they're going to be there always between
countries. Unions however make manufacturing more rigid. You can't improve
efficiency without risking some segment (generally the workers whose steps are
eliminated) striking and the whole workforce walking out. If you can't improve
your plants domestically, you're more likely to move them abroad.

Apple, for instance, radically changes the way iPhones are manufactured from
generation to generation. Even going so far as to buy large numbers of rare
machines. The workforce in china is pretty fluid. They aren't striking because
their job changed.

Edit2: I'm not going to rebut claims. To prove me wrong, show me articles
attacking other prominent technology companies, then show me how they've been
promoted on HN. Show me evidence that the people applying to Foxconn are
desperate, not people who have other jobs. All I know is that there are a lot
of them applying for each position.

The real point is-- this is Hacker News-- Politico News.

I know to expect downvotes, and this article, as predicted, is collecting a
lot of "righteous" outrage that Apple would dare defend itself. But look at
those comments.

Even if you agree with them, is this the Hacker News you want?

I don't. Karma be damned, I'm going to take a stand.

Please, just stop with political crap!

EDIT: OH, right. You're telling politically motivated lies about Apple because
"hackers have a social conscious". Bullshit.

~~~
Cushman
A quibble: Even a non-unionized laborer in the US can't live on $10 a day.
Unions didn't destroy American manufacturing, the economy did.

~~~
Retric
I don't think most foxcon workers are actually paid 10$ a day (it's less than
that). But, exchange rates are odd things, you can live on 2$ a day worth of
food in the US and buying the same food in China gives one exchange rate, but
comparing housing gives vary different exchange rates.

Basically, working in one of those factory's sucks more than any job you ever
had and pays a lot less. But, in that economy your still far from starvation.
If you want a real eye opener just compare how long it takes to buy a
lifetimes worth of food in the US. 70 years * 2$ a day * 365 days a year =
51,000$. Clean water is so cheap in the US it's hard to fathom, in much of the
world and most of most of history it was a major issue.

~~~
AllenKids
The most low level line workers are paid 1750+200+(100~800)+OT=more than
￥2500/month that's $13 a day.

So you think wrong.

The problem are hazardous working condition and excessive over-time, in the
end of course repetitive jobs that have no way up.

~~~
Retric
Mind if I ask where you get those numbers from? I have seen numbers for base
pay, but not base pay + over time or base pay + overtime - taxes. Also, 1750
yuan as base pay still seems rather high after taxes.

ex: _new recruits would get 1,350 yuan_
<http://www.wsws.org/articles/2012/jan2012/work-j17.shtml>

taxes: [http://www.beijingobserver.com/income-tax-calculator-
china.h...](http://www.beijingobserver.com/income-tax-calculator-china.html)

~~~
AllenKids
I have a relative working at Foxconn's Qunshan factory. His monthly income is
about ￥3000, he's been there for 15 month.

