

War for tech talent in NYC - kiddo
http://www.wired.com/epicenter/2010/12/war-for-talent-hits-new-york/

======
goodgoblin
I would love to know what the average startup is paying now in NYC v.s. what
the average Wall Street Firm would pay for the same programmer.

~~~
ig1
They can't compete. They'll never be able to compete on the money front.

If you're a senior C++ lead dev working in the front office of an Investment
Bank you can make 250k-500k/year.

If you join a startup as an early employee and get 1% equity , assuming a 10%
chance of exit after three years, the company would need to have a $1 billion
dollar exit for the risk-reward equation to break-even.

There are a lot of ex-finance developers in the startup world, but
overwhelming they're there as founders, as that's the only way they'll get
enough equity for it to be worthwhile.

~~~
johnrob
Your risk reward equation doesn't account for preferences. There are a lot of
folks out there that would be turned off by a 0% chance of a big exit, which
is what 250-500K/year is. Every startup offers a tiny chance of fame and
fortune that a normal salaried position lacks.

~~~
ig1
Even if you want a chance of a big exit, it makes more financial sense to just
put 20% of your salary into angel investments every year.

Sure there are other factors at play such as lifestyle, corporate culture,
etc. But when it comes down to hard money startups can't compete with
investment banks.

------
huertanix
There's a thread in Quora listing a fair chunk of NYC startups that are
currently hiring, and it grows almost daily: <http://www.quora.com/Which-
startups-in-NY-are-hiring>

------
Tycho
I have a pet theory about the apparent shortage of 'experienced engineers' in
the midst of high unemployment.

Software development as we know is an inherently unstable activity - it's very
hard to gauge how much a project will cost in time and money. Supposedly 50%
of IT projects fail and 70% don't meet all their targets (or something
catastrophic like that).

Well here's my theory. When you can't tell how much something will cost or
even whether it's really possible, when there are no guarantees, the only
thing that can comfort you is that your competition wont fair any better. To
ensure _this_ , you just need to employ the top programmers/architects. If you
have people of the best calibre, you can rest easy, because if they can't
deliver, nobody can.

Thus, companies looking to launch risky software ventures need what is by
definition a scarce resource (the best developers). Unless the nature of
software changes drastically, there will _always_ be a shortage of the
'experienced engineers' necessary to placate the anxiety of this high risk
business. Human expertise is finite, the capacity of software projects to fail
is infinite.

(particularly if you're talking about launching web apps and new platforms and
such... if you just need some simple engineering then not so much)

~~~
ardit33
um, if you want to build any great products, you need really good people
inboard. Average is just not good enough.

I noticed this is the same for sports. I play soccer frequently, and I noticed
that in order to win, you really need few good players in the team (way above
average). Not everybody has to be really good, but you need few good pl

In a team of 11 you need a great: Goalie Defender 2 Midfielder (one center and
one runner on the sides) One great Scorer/Forward

The rest of the team can be OK, (i.e good enough or average), but with good
organization this team will excel.

Now think of a startup that instead of being able to field 11 players on the
field, they can field only 7-8. Then everybody on the team has to be really
good from the get go for it to have a chance.

Once it grows, it can afford more warm bodies. People that can do useful work
(fix bugs, create additional features), but that are not able to do
groundbreaking work by themselves.

------
tocomment
You'd think they'd want to hire someone in philli who's willing to work two
days a week onsite and the rest from home but no. It's like I have the plague
whenever I mention it.

~~~
huertanix
I think that there's a certain dynamic with people that work in person that
doesn't happen as much remotely; In person someone could walk into a random
conversation after overhearing an idea, start adding their own twist to it,
and eventually someone starts scribbling on a whiteboard and a new iteration
of your product is born. I just don't see that happening as easily over
groupware.

~~~
yannickt
Having everyone on site is almost essential for an early stage startup, but
the more established the business the less frequent the dynamic you describe,
imo. I think many companies would benefit from hiring a few remote workers. It
is one of the many ways a company can win the war on talent. I think one
underrated aspect of Google's success in attracting top talent is that they do
R&D in many more locations than e.g. Microsoft. Also IIRC the main engineer on
Chrome/V8 started working for Google from his home in Denmark.

------
samratjp
"Right now in New York City every technology company is hiring engineers,
programmers, Java developers or PHP/Perl developers,” Carvajal said. “I
haven’t seen it this hot since 1997..."

Ummm, did they get the quote from 1997 too? I find these stacks to be in the
minority these days for a startup anyways. Or is this a NYC trend?

~~~
geebee
This quote struck me as a bit outdated as well. Not because it mentions Java
and PHP, but because it seems to imply that those are the big two skill sets.
The "what does your startup use?" polls that show up on HN every know and then
suggest Python and Ruby are in heavy use (though PHP and Java do still get a
decent showing)

~~~
asnyder
Believe it or not the self-selecting group represented on Hacker News is
absolutely not representative of the developer majority.

Furthermore, it's very unsettling that even on hacker news there's this
prevalent anti-PHP attitude. With the release of PHP 5.3, and the current
maturity of the numerous frameworks there's never been a better time to use
PHP.

~~~
KaeseEs
That there hasn't ever been a better time to use PHP doesn't make it a good
time to use PHP, cf. <http://vimeo.com/17675268>

------
jasonlbaptiste
Who here is an NYC startup and who here is hiring?

~~~
gaustin
I'd like to add a further question, if it's not frowned upon.

Are there any that might be interested in folks who would start remotely (but
willing to come out for bits of onsite time) and then relocate to NYC in a few
months?

~~~
shafqat
Yes - what kind of tech are you interested in? Email me (email in profile)!

------
jdp23
"I haven’t seen it this hot since 1997. It’s white-hot."

Sounds bubble-icious to me ...

~~~
smokinn
Sort of.

The problem with calling everything a bubble is the implication that bubbles
inevitably pop.

In our industry, good programmers tend to create a vastly disproportionate
amount of value compared to what they're paid. It's easy to pay programmers
hundreds of thousands of dollars because with programmers, a few thousands of
dollars of computers and some electricity you can make millions.

Maybe it's a bubble but I think it's simply a market correction. If your
output is valuable you can and should be compensated well for it.

~~~
nir
Well, bubbles do pop. The market was hot 96-2000, then cold say 2001-2005,
then got hot till the mortgage crisis, then cold until a few months ago etc.

Great programmers can create a lot of value, _in the right context_. Boo.com (
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boo.com> ) might have had developers as bright
as Amazon's, working just as hard - but in the end they created $0 value.

~~~
petercooper
As an aside, (and apologies if you've read it) "Boo Hoo", the corporate
biography of Boo.com's rise and fall, makes for both hilarious and scary
reading: <http://www.amazon.com/Boo-Hoo-Dot-Com-Story/dp/0099418371>

Their technical people did pull off some great feats but ultimately it was a
shambles from start to finish.

~~~
nir
Nice! I wasn't aware of this book, will add it to my list.

------
trumbo
I'm a programmer in NYC who doesn't have a work visa. (But I've worked as a
freelancer in the city for years, so I have lots of experience.) How should I
bring that up to potential employers? During the application or during the
interview or after I get hired? How much would it affect my compensation?

------
rwhitman
I'm actually starting on the hunt for an employer in NYC right now, but there
are so many co's hiring its somewhat daunting as to where to start.

Is there any NYC-specific tech job board out there?

~~~
nir
<http://nextny.jobthread.com/>

Also, if you attend meetups in your field (eg NY Python/PHP/Android/etc
meetup) they often allocate a few minutes for job offers/seekers. The
article's right, there's a strong demand now. Make sure to save some of your
income once you get a job (NYC can easily eat up any wad of cash you'll throw
at it ;) - the bubble will inevitably pop, make sure you can wait the next one
comfortably.

~~~
rwhitman
Thanks for that!

Yea the cash-eating qualities of NYC have kept me dealing with job hunt from
the economic safety of my family home 3 hours away in PA. Not so easy to do
under 2ft of snow ;)

Definitely a little wary of super early startups if only for the inevitable
bubble pop. Under-capitalized and in a competitive talent market is a surefire
pathway to quick collapse when the investment starts to dry up...

~~~
nir
Good thinking. Like anything in NYC, startups tend to get overhyped and
there's a lot of dumb money from rich kids or people who had a good run at
finance etc. I wouldn't work for below market wage in this kind of economy.

When the bubble pops, you can use your savings and take advantage of the lower
costs (and the fact you might not have a job anyway..) to start your own
thing.

(Edit: I guess the downmodding means I need to add some disclaimers here...
There are also smart rich kids and ex-bankers. Sometimes working for under-
market wage does make sense, eg. if you're trying to break in to a new field.
Some things are not overhyped in NYC. Your dreams may vary from those of
Globex Corporation, its subsidiaries and shareholders)

------
dkasper
Seems to be true in the Bay Area as well.

------
joe-mccann
Austin, SF/SV and NYC are all in the same boat: Tech talent demand is
unbelievably high. If you have a LinkedIn profile with reasonable skills
(hell, put "HTML5" in your profile and watch what happens) you probably are
already aware of this.

~~~
sbisker
What does it mean when companies are trolling around looking for "HTML5"? Is
that just the new buzzword? Or are that many companies actually interested in
building things with Canvas these days? (I hope it's not because they think
you need some sort of special HTML5 experience to learn how to embed video.)

~~~
huertanix
For the most part, I've noticed it means "do things Flash does, but on an
iPhone/iPad." So yeah, canvas.

------
Skywing
Pick me, pick me. :)

~~~
yan
Are you the same Skywing that used to post on Genmay like 6-8 years ago? I
think I bought a Toshiba laptop from you.

