
How a Reddit forum has become a lifeline to opioid addicts in the US - urahara
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2017/jul/19/opioid-addiction-reddit-fentanyl-appalachia
======
gooseus
What I find fascinating and disappointing is how much the opioid crisis isn't
being talked about or addressed proportional to other societal issues.

Billions of dollars of private research being poured into self-driving cars by
our greatest minds and millions of dollars in lobbying against gun laws all in
the name of preventing unnecessary human deaths... yet according to Ben
Bernanke (and his references), opioid overdose killed more people in 2015 than
automobile accidents and firearms related crimes combined [1].

I'm curious whether the disproportionate concern has more to do with the
perception of drug addicts as weak and deserving of their fate or because
they're not a group that can be profited from politically or commercially or
is overdosing just not as easy to solve as gun crime or automobile deaths?

Personally, I find all those excuses to be sad and bullshit so I'm hoping it's
something else entirely.

[1] [https://www.brookings.edu/wp-
content/uploads/2017/06/es_2017...](https://www.brookings.edu/wp-
content/uploads/2017/06/es_20170626_whengrowthisnotenough.pdf)

~~~
danans
While I agree that a lot more funds for treatment are needed to fight the
opioid epidemic, it is really a fundamentally different problem that road
fatalities. The only thing they really have in common are the fatalities.

The opioid crisis seems like a symptom of our social problems (hopelessness in
the rust belt, unscrupulous over-prescribing of pain meds) that has fatal
consequences.

Short of a drug that provided a permanent cure for opioid addiction itself,
I'm not sure what sort of solutions can be pursued by scientific/tech
research, as opposed to addressing the root social causes.

I'm interested in what ideas others might have though.

~~~
Torai
> I'm interested in what ideas others might have though.

I'm not from the US, but I think there is enough people already, all pointing
out in the same direction:

[http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2016/09/opioid-
lobbying-...](http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2016/09/opioid-lobbying-
pharmaceutical-companies/)

 _Over the past decade, pharmaceutical companies have spent more than $880
million on lobbying and political contributions at the state and federal
level. That’s more than eight times what the gun lobby and more than 200 times
what those advocating for stricter prescribing rules spent over the same time
period. The makers of prescription painkillers have adopted a 50-state
strategy that includes hundreds of lobbyists and millions in campaign
contributions to help kill or weaken measures aimed at stemming the tide of
prescription opioids_

~~~
NumberCruncher
The United States alone holds over 45 percent of the global pharmaceutical
market [1]. And less then 5 percent of earths population. Welcome to the
society of pharmaceutical addiction.

[1] [https://www.statista.com/topics/1719/pharmaceutical-
industry...](https://www.statista.com/topics/1719/pharmaceutical-industry/)

~~~
uiri
You're comparing a measure in dollars with a measure in people. Yes, per
capita expenditure on prescription medication is high in the US. Most other
countries have a national health care system which negotiates the price for
the whole country. The US market is where pharmaceutical companies expect to
recoup their R&D costs, which makes drugs more expensive in the US than
anywhere else. This effectively means that the US subsidizes drug prices for
the rest of the world in exchange for determining which drugs are safe for
humans (via the FDA) and getting slightly earlier access to newly developed
drugs.

~~~
sangnoir
> You're comparing a measure in dollars with a measure in people.

I'm not parent, but I'm sure this is intentional as the consequences of such a
scenario are easy to extrapolate...

> The US market is where pharmaceutical companies expect to recoup their R&D
> costs.

They could do this in two ways - having high margins on their drugs, and/or
selling a _lot_ of drugs. It is no surprise to see pharma lobbying against
tight laws on prescriptions, or anything that gets in the way of the 'market'
getting access to their products. Not coincidentally, the opioid crises means
they get to sell more drugs.

~~~
uiri
I think that they have both high margins on drugs (my gut estimate would be
ten times what the rest of the world pays, but it looks like it is ordinarily
only 2-5 times [0]) and they're selling a _lot_ of drugs. It is disingenuous
to claim that the US consumes 9 times more prescription drugs than the world
average. The reality is probably closer to 2-5 times more drugs and that these
drugs are 2-5 times more expensive by virtue of being sold in the US.

[0] [https://www.vox.com/a/health-prices](https://www.vox.com/a/health-prices)

~~~
NumberCruncher
Price difference may be a valid argument.

On the other hand in my home country we had some big pharmaceutical companies
(compared to the size of the country) exporting drugs world wide. I thought
that for example the pain killers I knew as I child would be used everywhere
on the world. When I moved to Germany I realized that I was wrong. There are
tons of different drugs for the same purpose with the same ingredients sold by
different producers. Therefore only becasue you in the US buy some expensive -
and highly addictive - pain killers you are not automatically financing the
R&D of pain killers sold in Europe by Europian companies to the Europian
people.

Let me be a smart ass and improve your calculation:

45% of drug revenue is generated by 5% of earth's population:

45% / 5% = 9

but you do not compare this number to 1 but to

55% of drug revenue is generated by 95% of earth's population:

55% / 95% = 0.58

So a US citizen spends 9 / 0.58 = 15.54 more on drugs as a non US citizen.
Even if price difference is a valid argument, this number is still too high.

------
VonGuard
I am almost ashamed to admit I have read these forums for years as a sort of
exercise in voyeuristic schadenfreude. I just love reading about drug culture,
watching drug movies, etc. Just like I love gangster movies. I can't explain
it. A few things I have learned:

/r/glassine is probably the most interesting. They rate heroin bags in the
Pittsburg area. It's supposed to be for everywhere, but it's mostly
Pennsylvania

/r/opiates is a place where addicts confide in each other and practice harm
reduction. They do not source. They tell hilarious, sad, amazing stories. Lots
of personal confessions and "whole life of an addict" style narratives.
Overall, a good community for addicts to find a safe space, instead of a place
that hounds them for not being in recovery.

/r/stims is where the meth heads hang out. Occasionally you get these great
"I'm on meth and here's everything in my mind right now" text barfs, but
mostly I feel like this is an empty sub

/r/researchchemicals is where people discuss Shulgin chemicals and beyond.

/r/drugnerds is amazing. Papers. Lots of them.

/r/drugporn is where people post photos of their drugs, and then a week later
the picture is taken down because Missoula Police saw it and arrested them
through the GPS sig in the photo.

/r/noids is where people discuss synthetic cannabinoids, which are horrible.
Never use these.

The rabbit hole goes very, very deep. Check /r/DarkNetMarkets/

~~~
provemewrong
Me too. Besides what you mentioned, I'm particularly fond of /r/mdma,
/r/psychonaut and /r/rationalpsychonaut (for discussions about psychedelics
sans spirituality and religion). Also /r/nootropics. And /r/drugs in general.
Don't forget /r/trees, which is of course the gateway subreddit, but it's
rather boring in comparison.

~~~
draw_down
Trees is just a bunch of people posting their bowls and where they toked up on
a hike. A lot of them likely live in legalized states. I'd say not even close.
(The "gateway" thing was a nice touch though.)

------
mherdeg
Not covered in this Guardian article: the somewhat scarier /r/opiaterollcall
(recently banned) and /r/cripplingalcoholism (not scary, just a discussion
forum).

I have been consuming reddit via the
[https://www.reddit.com/r/all/gilded/](https://www.reddit.com/r/all/gilded/)
feed and it is just WILD what kind of weird and worrying stuff is going on.

~~~
JTon
What took place in /r/opiaterollcall and why was it banned?

EDIT: Looks like it was a place to connect opiate buyers and sellers

~~~
awkwarddaturtle
One of the bigger subreddits for many years is /r/trees which "promotes"
marijuana and they haven't banned that sub even though marijuana is illegal in
most states and most countries.

Reddit has really gone downhill ever since they turned into a nanny forum
where they arbitrary enforce rules.

~~~
SquareWheel
Drug culture and drug markets are two completely different ball games. Banning
the latter is hardly inconsistent behavior.

------
Animats
_“Around my area, I believe a lot of people use [opioids] out of boredom.
There’s no jobs, no way to have fun besides video games and riding four-
wheelers and motorcycles. There’s nowhere to go except a run-down mall over in
another county.”_

Sizable numbers of people get into opiates out of boredom? I thought this was
driven by people with chronic pain.

~~~
DanBC
About 8% to 12% of people prescribed opioids long term will become addicted to
them.

The US prescribes far more opioids than any other developed nation.

These two combine and there are a bunch of people without addiction, but with
spare pills. Those pills have a market value, and so they get sold. Or
relatives of the patient find the pills and take them.

~~~
Grangar
Then there's also the issue of getting addicted to prescribed pills.

------
unionjack22
I can't recall a similar degree of concern and push for treatment during the
crack/cocaine epidemic in the 80-90's and the meth epidemic of the 00's. What
is it about the opioid/heroin epidemic that differentiates it from those
prior?

~~~
cprayingmantis
It's because opioids are legal. Anyone can obtain them with very little effort
and they don't have to worry about being 'caught'. The only way to get meth or
crack was to engage in an illegal transaction. Now you don't have to be a
criminal to be an addict and I think that scares people (Although nothing has
really changed other than society's view of it).

~~~
_acme
It's no longer 'very little effort' to get a doctor to write for an opioid.

~~~
slfnflctd
Every single one of these threads or news articles blathers on and on about
how all these clueless/evil doctors are hand-in-hand with Big Bad Pharma just
tossing opiate prescriptions at everyone who walks in the door. At this point
it's ridiculous, because the few outfits who did anything like this stopped or
were shut down years ago.

The pendulum has swung in the other direction-- doctors have been inundated
with the 'crisis' message and are terrified to prescribe any strong pain or
anxiety meds to anyone. It was once routine for me and others I know to be
prescribed hydrocodone for conditions like painful seized muscles, root canals
or severe strep throat. We were apparently all in the ~80%+ who used it as
intended and stopped. It worked great! No one I know has received an opiate
for those conditions in a very long time. They all tell you just take
ibuprofen now, which is completely insufficient. So what to people do instead?
They drink or turn to illegal drugs. Functionally banning drugs does nothing
to fight addiction, and in some cases can make it worse.

Sorry to rant, but I have both seen and experienced the hell of untreated pain
due to skittish doctors. The cowardice and misinformation resulting in such
direct harm really angers me.

~~~
Kurtz79
The few articles I read on the subject are actually quite clear that the
current crisis is due to the increased control on prescriptions, and some talk
about the side effects on people with actual needs:

[https://www.theguardian.com/us-
news/2016/jul/12/prescription...](https://www.theguardian.com/us-
news/2016/jul/12/prescription-drugs-what-if-you-depend-on-opioids-chronic-
pain)

[https://www.theguardian.com/society/ng-
interactive/2016/may/...](https://www.theguardian.com/society/ng-
interactive/2016/may/25/opioid-epidemic-overdose-deaths-map)

"The simplistic idea was, 'Oh, this is all about prescription opioids, and
therefore that's all we need to do: reduce the supply of prescription opioids
and we'll reduce all these deaths and people won't become addicted,'" said
Alexander Walley, a physician and director of addiction consultation services
at Boston Medical Center.

"Well, what we're seeing now is that even as you reduce access to prescription
opioids, you're seeing an explosion of heroin use and heroin overdoses ."

Still, it's hard for someone that has not experienced these conditions to
understand how prescribing these highly addictive substances could be
justified.

Is it the only form of treatment ? How is treatment handled in other countries
?

------
socrates1998
I wonder if marijuana legalization is inversely correlate with this issue? As
in, the areas that have legalized marijuana have seen a drop in opiates?

------
virtuexru
The fact that fentanyl (which is 100x more powerful than morphine) is so
readily available/mixed with common drugs across the United States is
excruciatingly horrifying.

------
RealityNow
What is the solution to this opioid epidemic?

As an outsider not well-versed in this topic, my guess is that the root cause
here is hopelessness, struggle, and boredom caused by poverty and
unemployment.

The solution then would be to employ people and give them a sense of purpose,
or at least get them out of poverty.

I'm a huge proponent of a universal basic income (UBI), though I'm not sure
that a UBI would fix this problem. Thus it seems as if some sort of government
jobs program may be necessary. Giving people meaningful well-paying jobs in
science and technology would do wonders in getting people off these ridiculous
addictions.

~~~
zer0tonin
> The solution then would be to employ people and give them a sense of
> purpose, or at least get them out of poverty.

The jobs are gone. Now it's time to stop marginalizing and treating jobless
people like parasites. This would help more.

------
ryfm
i stopped smoking thanks to r/stopsmoking. 500 days and going strong.

~~~
NotSteve
I quit coke thanks to /r/stopspeeding (and some other things in real life). 71
days sober

------
OscarTheGrinch
r/stopdrinking is also a very supportive community.

~~~
undersuit
Along with r/leaves, a marijuana cessation subreddit.

~~~
markdown
Note also: /r/quittingkratom/

This one is interesting because many people use kratom to wean off opioids.

------
abrkn
In other news, Hansa Market, a Dark Web Marketplace, Bans the Sale of
Fentanyl[1]

[1]
[https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/18/business/dealbook/hansa-m...](https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/18/business/dealbook/hansa-
market-a-dark-web-marketplace-bans-the-sale-of-fentanyl.html)

------
corndoge
There are tons more of these forums and Reddit is probably the least
trafficked out of all those I know about.

~~~
tantalor
Elaborate.

------
naiveattack
TED: Everything you think you know about addiction is wrong

[https://www.ted.com/talks/johann_hari_everything_you_think_y...](https://www.ted.com/talks/johann_hari_everything_you_think_you_know_about_addiction_is_wrong)

------
rhcom2
/r/darknetmarkets was a really interesting place after the Alphabay shutdown
too. A lot of opioid addicts very scared about their supply and withdrawal
symptoms.

------
nickeleres
I just scoured that sub for 30 minutes and all I saw was people bragging out
their pills, showing off their heorin, and fantasizing about using
Fentanyl....

------
fapjacks
Kratom saves lives.

~~~
gooseus
If that's true, then perhaps you should put some links to good resource
explaining what it is and where to get it? Also maybe something indicating why
and how it saves lives, any studies on people who kicked opiates using kratom
and can attest to it's life-saving properties?

I know people who use kratom and they have good things to say, but I've known
people who say the same thing about x, y, and z supplement/nootropic whatever.

~~~
Dirlewanger
[https://reddit.com/r/kratom](https://reddit.com/r/kratom)

~~~
ghostbrainalpha
Be Fucking Warned

[https://www.reddit.com/r/quittingkratom/](https://www.reddit.com/r/quittingkratom/)

~~~
fapjacks
Yes, some people seem to go overboard no matter what the chemical. There are
some sad stories in there of people that can't control themselves. Sort of
highly, highly addictive personalities. There are some similar stories for
people quitting caffeine, for example:
[https://www.reddit.com/r/decaf/](https://www.reddit.com/r/decaf/)

~~~
ghostbrainalpha
That doesn't really fit with my experience. I was a heavy user of alcohol,
cigarettes, and occasionally even tried cocaine. Quitting all of those had
extremely minimal effects on me physically or mentally.

Getting off Kratom resulted in something like a flu that lasted 2-3 weeks. And
I wasn't taking an especially high dose, and I had only been using for 3
months.

~~~
fapjacks
Where were you getting your kratom? Were you buying it from a vendor that also
provides documentation from a testing facility to demonstrate that there were
no adulterants? There are people participating in the kratom supply chain that
adulterate the kratom that passes through their hands. Testing has shown
kratom sprayed with opiates, or kratom adulterated with opiate potentiators
(both herbal and not), and even stuff like kratom with green tea added to give
it a better smell and flavor. For example, those teenagers that died in Sweden
were found to have been taking kratom that was sprayed with
O-desmethyltramadol (ODT) [0].

I purchase all of my kratom from a vendor that also provides documentation to
prove that they're selling unadulterated kratom. Lots of vendors are resisting
this, because they know the lengths some unscrupulous southeast Asian
distributors will go to to get "the most fire kratom" to sell to American
vendors (and lie about what they're selling). And there are known instances of
American vendors realizing that they've been sold an adulterated batch, and
then _continuing_ to sell that kratom in order to not be holding a loss. I
appreciate your recounting your experience, and I'm sorry to hear it was
troublesome, but having used kratom for going on ten years now, and regularly
taking extended breaks to keep my tolerance from building, my own anecdote is
the opposite from yours: I experience little to no withdrawals whatsoever, and
I take a relatively high dose. I understand kratom affects people differently,
but the testing that's been done, and things added to kratom by the Indonesian
or Vietnamese distributors' own admission shows that what people are buying
could be anything.

As more vendors realize that regular testing and publication of the results is
what consumers want, I believe we'll see fewer and fewer of these kinds of
stories.

[0] [http://www.emcdda.europa.eu/publications/drug-
profiles/krato...](http://www.emcdda.europa.eu/publications/drug-
profiles/kratom)

~~~
_acme
Unadulterated kratom still affects mu-opioid receptors, just as other opioids,
and so stopping taking it will cause opioid-like withdrawal symptoms.

~~~
fapjacks
Yes, but the point I'm making is that we can't know if he was taking some
potent opiate along with his kratom. Kratom is used by many specifically
because of its quick and mild withdrawal symptoms, which is why people on
strong opiates use kratom to come off of their hard opiates. That's why it's
suspect when people talk about lengthy, strong withdrawals, which are very
uncharacteristic of unadulterated kratom. And buying from "a reputable vendor"
doesn't mean anything if they aren't testing what they're selling. I know of
at least one extremely popular and highly-rated vendor that knowingly sold
adulterated kratom in the United States, and I have the test results
documentation to prove it. So while I can say with _certainty_ that what I'm
putting in my body is not adulterated, these other people with (wildly
outlier) anecdotal stories of very hard withdrawals can't say the same thing.
And in fact, the anecdotal evidence -- uncharacteristically strong and/or
lengthy withdrawals -- would seem to point to having consumed _something_ with
_some kind_ of adulterant opiate or potentiator (or both) added for potency
purposes. The fact is, this happens far more often than people are willing to
admit, and of course everybody's counterpoint story comes with the "it
wouldn't happen to me" fallacy. But the fact remains: I can _prove_ that I'm
consuming unadulterated kratom (and having almost no withdrawal symptoms with
a fairly high, regular dose). These other people cannot.

~~~
loeg
What vendor knowingly sold adulterated kratom? Just curious.

~~~
fapjacks
I made a promise to myself that I would not mention specific vendors in my
posts here -- for good or for bad, in order not to take away from my message
-- but it was one of the two most talked-about and recommended vendors that
you hear about in r/kratom. And it makes sense that people would recommend a
vendor whose product contains stronger opiates or potentiators, because the
effects are stronger. The thing about kratom is that the vast majority of
consumers are new to it, because they only just heard about it from the
publicity it received when the DEA tried scheduling it. So you have a _ton_ of
people that have no experience with kratom whatsoever, gauging the "quality"
of a vendor's products based on how it makes them feel, and ignoring some of
the warning signs, or flatly not researching it beforehand. Only a significant
minority of kratom consumers are using it to come off of hard opiates. Most
people (like me) are taking it for its pain-relieving and mood-stabilizing
effects. I suppose some minority of users are trying kratom to test the
"high", too. But kratom doesn't get you "high" (unless it's adulterated). And
unfortunately, some consumers are landing on a kratom vendor that's
unknowingly or knowingly selling kratom with something extra thrown in. It's a
sticky situation, because testing is not the norm. Thankfully, kratom is cheap
enough that it often doesn't make economic sense to adulterate kratom. But in
the ever-increasingly competitive market for Indonesian distributors, more and
more are willing to take those extra steps to have kratom that stands out from
the crowd, and let there be no mistake: There are some _cheap_ adulterants,
especially with China next door. The fairly new, explosive growth of the
kratom industry is completely changing some of the poorest regions of
Indonesia for the better. But as with anything like this, there are scumbags
getting into it, looking for a golden ticket. We've been very lucky so far
that adulteration is not the norm, but those days may be coming to an end, as
demand starts to skyrocket. That's why I'm so big on testing, because gambling
that "chances are, it won't be adulterated" is not a viable option.

------
unabridged
>The obvious counter-argument is silencing them strengthens their argument and
makes them a martyr. I don't buy that argument at all, it's far more dangerous
to allow them to indoctrinate and appeal to all the fringe disenfranchised
youth which they've become frighteningly effective at. In any case it's clear
reddit can be used for good like in this article, I'm just not so sure it's a
net positive to society as another poster argued.

This is the road to censorship, burning books, and confiscating servers. Some
people are fine with censorship, because they imagine people who think like
them as the censors.

You can only fight ideas with better ideas. Kicking them out and silencing
them, says to them you can't compete. You can't offer them an argument as to
why they should tolerate foreigners, other races, etc. It seems obvious to you
now, but the ideals of tolerance and equality took years and years of
discourse to dominate public consciousness.

~~~
lsmarigo
Then why is yelling "fire" in a crowded theatre illegal? With your reasoning
you should just be able to 'fight that idea with saying "No there is NOT a
fire" but it's too late, the damage is done.

~~~
nokcha
Falsely yelling "fire" in a crowded theater is illegal because the First
Amendment has exceptions for lying (i.e., asserting an objective falsehood
with intent to deceive).

~~~
Retra
Yelling fire in a crowded theater after lighting a match is not lying. The
problem is not lying, it is recklessness. The only problem with lying is that
it is also sometimes reckless.

------
averagewall
In the HN-popular utopian future where automation has made most people
unemployed and living on UBI, we're supposed to be able to pursue our dreams
without the pressure to feed ourselves. But in reality, many people don't have
dreams or the motivation to pursue them and end up as drug
addicts/alcoholics/gangsters which is just easier.

I used to laugh at the idea that people need jobs to feel fulfilled. I thought
those must be quite helpless people who can't even make their own hobbies. But
from personal experience, I found that dreams are for young people and people
with demanding jobs. They're a grass-is-greener fantasy when they're out of
reach but deteriorate into boring unrewarding work when you actually do them.
Working for a company is especially fulfilling because you more productive
than you can be on your own. You feel more useful. You feel important and
needed.

So I think the idea of widespread happy unemployment isn't going to work. It
might still happen but I think it'll be a tragedy, not a paradise unless we
can find something else that takes the place of work.

~~~
sangnoir
> But in reality, many people don't have dreams or the motivation to pursue
> them and end up as drug addicts/alcoholics/gangsters

You seem to be suggesting that one can't simultaneously have a job and dreams
_and_ be an alcoholic/drug addict/gangster. This is sloppy logic

Edit: Your perspective also explains why society hasn't addressed alcoholism
and drug addiction for so long: to you, the alcoholics and addicts are an
entirely separate group from upright, hardworking, motivated, dream-pursuing
"normal" people.

------
icpmacdo
I think Reddit is interestingly a net social positive. For all the bad things
that come out of it you can often see users helping others in a pretty
significant way.

~~~
vinhboy
I used to think so. I enjoyed Reddit a lot, despite people complaining about
it. Then /r/the_donald happened.

Now I tread carefully because you never know what kind of propaganda is being
spread around.

People say stick to the subreddit. But I think that's silly. If the core of
Reddit is rotten, then the subreddit themselves will be affected. It has
happened to places I visit like /r/environment. There is a constant barrage of
non-environmentally friendly comments. Not enough to change the overall makeup
of the subreddit, but enough to make you wonder who is on the other side of
the screen voting or down voting on stories.

Then there are places like /r/technology, which is almost intolerable to me at
times.

People say I am paranoid, but like with anything, if you know a place well and
visit it for years, you can sense when things change.

And yes my opinion is subjective, but this is a subjective topic.

~~~
zeep
/r/politics is similar to /r/the_donald but it is the exact opposite (it could
have been called /r/the_hillary)

~~~
pcnix
/r/politics does not outright run itself as a safe space for a particular
group though, unlike /r/the_donald. Any criticism on /r/the_donald gets you a
ban, whereas any criticism on /r/politics just gets you downvotes, which are
entirely consistent with how the sub should be run.

~~~
KekDemaga
I'd argue that being forth right is a better approach. While they won't often
ban on politics they do enforce a timeout when your comment gets down voted
having a similar effect.

~~~
komali2
That's how the website works, that's not anything particular about the
/r/politics mods.

~~~
KekDemaga
Its actually a feature you can turn on and off as a moderator.

~~~
SquareWheel
Are you talking about spam filter settings? Otherwise no, such a setting does
not exist.

------
tigershark
If you ask me I'd rather spend money to save a child killed by a car,
financing self driving cars, than waste money trying to save people that don't
want to be saved and that, even after being revived tens of times, continue to
abuse drugs until their death, as per the other thread last week.

~~~
dionidium
If you really understood addiction, you'd understand that this is like saying
that you don't want to treat someone with cancer, since they seemingly insist
on recurring time and time again even after chemo and radiation, continuing to
have cancer until their death.

But, of course, you're not thinking of addition as a medical issue. You're
treating it like a moral _failure_.

~~~
TheLilHipster
I usually wouldn't post this sort of stuff, as it is a pretty taboo opinion
that just gets buried.

But If I don't get any discourse, I can't learn anything or have my opinion
changed, anyway here we go...

> If you really understood addiction.

I hear this dismissive retort a lot in the addict community. It's nonsense.

If you can't empirically analyze, measure and explain "what its like", or
defend your view-point rationally - then you've lost.

The attitude of "You just don't get it man! you need to be an addict to
understand what its truly like" is complete and utter self-victimization
bullshit.

> But, of course, you're not thinking of addiction as a medical issue. You're
> treating it like a moral failure.

I treat is as both. I guess it depends on your virtues and morals, but in my
eyes; logic and rationality comes first. Responsibility lies in the human
being behind the labels.

Within the journey of addiction, there are many moral struggles and choices
that you'll need to make (avoiding taking action on a difficult choice, is
still a choice).

Sure, physical addiction is fucked and withdrawals are fucked. But the second
you commit an evil deed to feed your addiction, I lose all sympathy.

I'd rather spend my time helping those that _deserve_ it, than those that
_need_ it - I guess that's the crux of my perspective.

Maybe its a little harsh as there are (assumption) a lot of quiet, functioning
addicts that just meld into society. I don't have enough information to form a
legitimate opinion on that specific subset. My distaste for addicts are purely
those that have run the gauntlet and have traded in their morals, decency and
humanity in ugly ways to satiate their vice.

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ao8L-0nSYzg](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ao8L-0nSYzg)

~~~
dionidium
I'm not asking you to listen to the pleas of addicts. I'm asking you to accept
the medical literature and the opinions of addiction specialists.

Also, you seem inordinately focused on the physical aspects of withdrawal and
the moral fortitude required to endure it. I suspect that the professionals
would tell you that that's less than 1% of the struggle.

