

An easy way for NYC renters to schedule apartment showings - jays
http://www.nakedapartments.com/blog/showings-on-demand/

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jonathanjaeger
I just rented an apartment in NYC this week and using Naked Apartments and
RentHop were great -- forget about Craigslist. Naked Apartments combines
duplicate listings which was definitely a helpful feature in my search. This
new feature seems really great and helps prevent waiting around for email
replies (some brokers are ridiculously fast, some aren't).

~~~
potatolicious
Craigslist is completely useless in NYC, but largely as a result of brokers
poisoning the well. They will indiscriminately post in roommate categories,
no-fee categories, and basically any category remotely related to real-estate.

I've seen coverage about some NYC apartment startups recently, and while some
of these features are useful, I keep hoping for someone to come in and
actually fix the _core_ problems with NYC real estate - i.e., brokers.

There was a startup that had some buzz locally a few months ago when they
launched who claimed to be upsetting the broker order, except it turns out
they were doing this by becoming a mega-broker themselves and charging
basically the same brokerage rates as brokers. Meet the new boss, etc.

If there's any aspect of NYC that desperately needs generous application of
our "disruption" buzzword, it's renting.

~~~
bradleyjg
It's one of those "you aren't the client" situations. The brokers are horrific
for apartment searchers, but are more convenient for landlords than trying to
show and rent units themselves.

Very large apartment complexes (e.g. Stuyvesant Town) tend to have in house
sales staff. Although even there some poor schlimazels end up needlessly
paying a fee.

~~~
brigade
It seems rather silly that they don't charge their clients though, instead
charging their victims.

If they directly charged the landlords, maybe some of them would consider
whether the service is worth 10-15% of a year's income.

~~~
bradleyjg
Who pays the broker is generally a sign of the market conditions. When it's a
renters market the landlord eats the fees, when vacancies are down, like now,
it's the other way around.

Also, for all the reasons mentioned in potatolicious's other post [1], it's
difficult for a landlord that is renting directly (i.e. without a fee) to
convincingly communicate that fact to potential renters.

[1]
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6027785](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6027785)

~~~
brigade
Has it ever been a renter's market in NYC? It seems that NYC's rental market
has to have been deeply in favor of landlords for a very long time in order to
create a market for these brokers to even exist.

~~~
bradleyjg
In 2002-3, I remember landlords not only paying broker's fees, but also
offering 1-2 months free. Then in 2009-10 there was another dip after the
banks laid off all those people.

I wasn't renting in the Dinkins' era, but from what I hear it was an entirely
different story.

------
bitops
Is it very difficult to find a good apartment for rent in NYC? What do people
need to know who are unfamiliar with the landscape?

~~~
potatolicious
It's difficult, but the biggest barrier is money. If you bring a lot of it to
the table NYC is not a _huge_ pain to rent in (less so than SF, actually).

Some basic issues:

\- 40X Rule. As a rule of thumb, your rent multiplied by 40 needs to be less
than your annual pre-tax income. Failing to meet this means you're probably
not getting the apartment, or if you do, you'd be expected to pay a huge
deposit, or in some other way mitigate the landlord's risk.

\- Brokers everywhere, and on the whole they are extremely corrupt. In NYC
it's very rare to contact an actual landlord through a listing - you're
contacting a broker, who will expect a commission of 12-15% _of your annual
rent_ for the privilege of being allowed to rent this apartment.

\- Every channel where a renter might contact landlords directly and cut out
the broker middleman is flooded with deliberate spam. Bait and switching is
common - where they list on a "no fee" listing site, but when you call the
apartment "suddenly rented" but there is a broker-fee apartment still
available at the same address...

\- Obfuscation is common. Some apartments are exclusively represented by a
brokerage firm, where they've come to some arrangement with the landlord.
Other apartments are actually fee-less. Brokers will attempt to suppress these
apartment listings from getting out into public view, and repost them instead
as "their" listings. The easiest way to recognize this is when the posting
refuses to reveal the exact address (instead they will list nearby
intersections).

\- More bait and switch: brokers will frequently try to upsell with fake
listings. This is common done by either posting a very good-looking apartment
at a great price, and then arrange the showing. Once you actually show up to
see the apartment they will try to pivot you to another, more expensive
apartment that you didn't sign up for. This is also frequently done by showing
the actual apartment, but relabeling it to be in a more desirable area. You
can often tell this is happening if the broker refuses to meet near the
listing's location, and instead tells you to meet them "by their office" in a
nearby, but less desirable, location.

\- Unlike most aspects of NYC life, there is no effective police action
against the above abuses. You can file a complaint with the real estate
licensing body, but unlike, say, the taxi licensing body, no real consequences
result for the cheating broker.

\- Terminology bingo. NYC is very space constrained, and as such landlords and
brokers alike have come up with specialized language to describe their
apartments that make them sound better than they actually are. Learning to
read between these lines is a pain. A "flex" 2-bedroom actually means a
1-bedroom apartment where a makeshift living space has been constructed in the
living room (this can be anything from a semi-legitimate wall to a curtain). A
"1 bedroom" is frequently just a plain lie, it's a studio apartment.
"Charming" usually means run-down. It takes quite some time to really figure
out the hidden meaning behind a lot of apartment postings.

\- Fake apartments altogether. This is particularly true if you're young, not
used to renting (even in other cities), and trying to rent without being in
the city to look at places. Lots of places will collect rental application
fees and then reject all candidates. Rinse and repeat. Warning sign is an
abnormally high application fee.

\- Quality of landlord. Sometimes even good-looking apartments are actually
run by slumlords who won't fix the heat, won't fix the water, and generally
let everything go to shit. Because most NYC apartments rent in a matter of
days (if not hours), there is no ability for the renter to do due diligence on
the landlord. This is changing - the city has made building complaints public
via API, and more and more real estate sites are incorporating this data.

\- Simple noise. This is a real tragedy of the commons situation. Most listing
sites are _filled_ with duplicates as one broker tries to out-spam the others.
Brokers also spam listings across unrelated sections of sites in the hopes of
getting a hit (relabeling a studio as a 1-bed, a 1-bed as a studio, posting it
in a different part of the city, etc). Stale listings that no one has bothered
to remove. It goes on.

If that hasn't scared you away yet. Welcome, have fun :)

~~~
jasonwocky
Is this specifically Manhattan experience? My experiences in Brooklyn were
nowhere near this bad (before I eventually got out of the renter's market and
bought here).

~~~
potatolicious
I suspect so. This has been true for everywhere I've looked - which has been
all Manhattan. Even in the more run-down parts of Manhattan
(coughChinatowncough) it's still the case.

My impression from coworkers is that it's the same in the "hot" parts of
Brooklyn. Park Slope, W'burg, DUMBO, etc. Things may not be so bad further out
though.

------
joonix
Thinking back to apartment hunting in NYC a few months ago makes me want to
vomit. I am never going to do it again, I'd rather leave. I had a lucky break
that did not involve using any of these services nor a broker.

