
Erdogan’s Attempt to Suppress German Satire Has the Opposite Effect - bresc
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/03/31/world/europe/recep-tayyip-erdogan-turkey-suppress-german-satire.html?partner=IFTTT
======
gokhan
These days, most forms of criticism of Erdogan is forbidden in Turkey. During
the past 14 years, he and his party turned a barely standing democracy with
imperfect rules into a semi-dictatorian state with no rules. Police force
fully belongs to him and you can derive many similarities with Hitler's early
1930's. There are no mainstream press left daring to oppose him, no prosecutor
can question him for his unconstitutional statements and acts, and his
feedback loop consists of garbage people who's only income source is saying
whatever pleases him.

As a result, the guy really lives in a bubble where everything he says almost
immediately happens, but only in Turkey. This does not stop him to order doing
something about that stupid foreign press, and all his advisors think is to
ask the German govt to suppress free press in Germany.

Expect more from him in the coming months since he's on a ride to the top of
idiocy.

~~~
gkya
Erdogan is not an idiot for trying to censor German press. He does know that
that won't ever happen because he wanted. But most the voters of his party
will be excited to see him shouting at the Germany, the US, etc. This is not
that obvious to the opposition. I came to know some supporters only recently,
and boy, they have arousals when the guy acts like this. I'm a Turkish citizen
BTW.

And see, criticism of Erdogan is not really forbidden. Criticism in its every
form is forbidden, if you're powerful enough. Criticise Ataturk, and what
happens? Lawsuits, and you'll probably be jailed (1). Say that the Armenian
Genocide happened, you'll be jailed. Criticise the party leaders, and they
sack half of the party, e.g. the recent MHP situation.

Erdogan does not like criticism, but it's our culture that allows him to
actually enforce a surpression thereof. There was a guy who reported his own
wife because she spoke pejoratively about Erdogan. Here there still is a godly
_ruling class_ , the class of _devlet buyukleri_. Until they become merely
_the citizens with the duty to decide for us for a limited time and with full
responsabilities_ , the status quo will go on.

(1) A very recent example is the havoc against a documentary that criticised
him.

~~~
jimbokun
A preview of what's in store if the U.S. somehow manages to elect Trump.

~~~
flatline
Trump is primarily playing off a base of xenophobia and isolationism, for
which Americans have always had a certain luxury due to our geographic
isolation from the rest of the world. For our _one_ neighbor to the South, he
wants to build a wall. I see nothing that would indicate a stifling of the
press, individual rights to free expression and assembly, rigged elections,
and all the other problems facing Turkey today.

~~~
untothebreach
I disagree, I believe there would definitely be effects to freedom of the
press and free expression. Trump's opinion of the press is well-documented[1],
as well as his opinion on free speech[2][3].

1: [http://www.politicususa.com/2016/02/27/trump-freedom-
press-n...](http://www.politicususa.com/2016/02/27/trump-freedom-press-not-
people.html)

2: [http://www.politico.com/blogs/on-media/2016/02/donald-
trump-...](http://www.politico.com/blogs/on-media/2016/02/donald-trump-libel-
laws-219866)

3:
[http://www.nytimes.com/2006/01/25/business/media/25trump.htm...](http://www.nytimes.com/2006/01/25/business/media/25trump.html)

~~~
6stringmerc
Thank you for listing these; one of the most shocking observations I've had is
how absolutely up-front Trump is about saying he'd basically gut the First
Amendment because he doesn't like journalists. Having sources like you've
provided is quite helpful. Why 'the press' hasn't savagely been aggressive and
hostile toward him the way he has to them doesn't inspire confidence in me
unfortunately.

~~~
untothebreach
My cynical opinion is that, unfortunately, "trump stories" == "clicks/viewers"
== "more ad revenue", to the point where no news organization can afford to
_not_ cover every ridiculous story about Trump.

~~~
6stringmerc
No disagreement, I'm familiar enough with media revenue streams and what-not
that I understand the "appeal" of coverage. It does kind of remind me a bit of
the way media members 'covered' for Tiger Woods for all those years. As in, if
you wanted access to him for interviews, content, etc, you'd better keep
certain things out of print (so to speak). Skewering Trump would "curtail"
access, or, more than likely, result in a lawsuit threat.

------
thirdsun
As a german I really have to wonder what's wrong with our government if we
continue to cozy up to Erdogan's turkey.

I really don't think having turkey as a migration buffer is worth paying the
price of making the european union look like a club you can buy your way into
regardless of ethics. What's the use of values if we're starting to ignore
them so easily?

~~~
matt4077
It just goes to show that politics is really really hard. You never get to
hear about the decisions that are easy. If it's reported in the media, it's
almost by definition an issue with multiple viable options (or, in this case,
only bad choices).

Having seen a bit of German politics from the inside, I can assure you that
everyone grapples with choices like this. I've witnessed ministers of finance
changing their opinion on life-or-death (for Greece) matters three times in a
day. Not because they lack conviction or idealism, but because they have a set
of believes that are sometimes conflicting. Plus lack of sleep, incomplete
information etc.

I wish more of that process could be shown on TV, but politicians who actually
voice these ambiguities are unfortunately seen as weak and thus at some point
a decision is made internally and is then communicated with absolute
confidence publicly.

Regarding Turkey: rest assured, they're never going to be an EU member if
things don't change dramatically. Medium-term, Turkey does actually belong in
the EU: it's got enormous economic potential, could be a bridge to the middle
east etc. Maybe that should have actually happened in the 1995-2008 timeframe
and we'd have a different Turkey today. But EU leaders closed the door back
then, possibly b/c Turkey was too poor, probably also because there's always
one EU head of state who's a fucking racist.

~~~
sydneysider
Blaming this on 'racism' is a poor argument. Maybe it has something to do with
the incompatible cultures and values.

~~~
Cenk
"incompatible cultures and values" are almost exactly the words these racists
have always used to keep Turkey out. Britain, Spain, Greece, Cyprus and
Slovakia are all compatible, but Turkey is a step too far?

~~~
tim333
In Germany Holocaust denial is illegal and you can get imprisoned for it. In
Turkey it is required to deny the Armenian Genocide where the Turks killed a
million or so Armenians, an act the word genocide was invented to describe. In
Turkey you can get imprisoned for saying it happened. That's a fairly major
incompatibility to deal with.

~~~
ousta
you can deny holocaust in many european countries...

~~~
morgante
But you can't get arrested for saying it happened in any European countries.

~~~
trco
In France you can get imprisoned for holocaust denial. See:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laws_against_Holocaust_denial](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laws_against_Holocaust_denial)

Art 9. – As an amendment to Article 24 of the law of July 29, 1881 on the
freedom of the press, article 24 (a) is as follows written: <<Art. 24 (a). -
those who have disputed the existence of one or more crimes against humanity
such as they are defined by Article 6 of the statute of the international
tribunal military annexed in the agreement of London of August 8, 1945 and
which were a carried out either by the members of an organization declared
criminal pursuant to Article 9 of the aforementioned statute, or by a person
found guilty such crimes by a French or international jurisdiction shall be
punished by one month to one year's imprisonment or a fine.

~~~
morgante
While I don't agree with that law, it's the opposite of what I was talking
about.

In Turkey you literally can't _admit_ that a genocide happened.

------
elthran
I wonder how much more of this sort of thing has to go on before the media
begins widespread use of the word "dictator" for Erdogan? Illegal criticism,
seizing opposition media, violent oppression of minorities, potential election
shenanigans - I can imagine next he'll appoint himself President for Life and
rename the it the People's Republic of Turkey.

I feel the same thing applies to Putin, but we'll never see the term used due
to the immense power he and his Russia wield internationally when compared to
small fry Turkey

~~~
DavidHm
Turkey is considered a US ally. We don't use the term dictators for our
allies. (see Saudi Arabia for example).

~~~
yxhuvud
The correct term for the leader of Saudi Arabia is 'king', though, so it is
quite understandable that dictator is not used there.

Which of course doesn't make the situation any better.

~~~
Munksgaard
And Saddam Husseins correct title was 'President' and Hitlers correct title
was 'Führer' or 'Reich Chancellor', but they were still dictators.

------
darklajid
The (funny, in my world) reaction of the show on Twitter is translated
literally in the article:

Mr. Erdogan brandishing a fire extinguisher at a laptop, while threatening,
“Either you erase this video, or I will extinguish the Internet.”

In German 'löschen' does mean to extinguish a fire (as the cartoon implies
with the fire extinguisher), but more generally this is what you'd use for
'delete' in most/all cases.

So while the translation is certainly correct, the double meaning of 'I will
delete the internet' is lost.

1:
[https://twitter.com/extra3/status/714804805798068225](https://twitter.com/extra3/status/714804805798068225)

~~~
yoodenvranx
German here: I think extinguish works very well in this case because it
translates into a genernal "auslöschen" which is not limited to flames and
fire, e.g. "Die Dinosaurier wurden durch den Einschlag eines riesigen Kometens
ausgelöscht".

I agree that it works better in German but it translates surprisingly well
into English.

------
alexandrerond
I'm always wondering, how does a country that venerates Atatürk
([https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mustafa_Kemal_Atat%C3%BCrk](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mustafa_Kemal_Atat%C3%BCrk))
and was concious of the values around which he built modern Turkey, can
retrace its steps back and undo all that took so much effort to get.

Modern Turkey was built on openness, education, strong secularization and
liberal values (in 1934 already they granted women full political rights, way
before many others). Now we see a country which has drifted towards the most
rancid nationalism and authoritarianism.

It's a pity really. Turkey enjoys so many geographical and cultural advantages
(being the door between Europe and Asia), that had it steered towards the
modern democracy path by keeping Atatürk's legacy alive, it would have easily
become a notable member of the EU and a major player in the stability of the
region.

~~~
selimthegrim
How were the Ku^H^HMountain Turks supposed to enjoy all that openness and
liberal values when they were dead?

------
froh42
The satire show is reacting with more satire. Extra 3 made Mr. Erdogan
employee of the month.

[http://www.ndr.de/fernsehen/sendungen/extra_3/extra-3-Der-
Ir...](http://www.ndr.de/fernsehen/sendungen/extra_3/extra-3-Der-Irrsinn-der-
Woche,sendung494848.html)

Oh and the song with english subtitles:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R2e2yHjc_mc](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R2e2yHjc_mc)

~~~
lispm
More important: the video has been released with Turkish subtitles:

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=349VWBGICUQ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=349VWBGICUQ)

English subtitles:

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R2e2yHjc_mc](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R2e2yHjc_mc)

Spread...

~~~
stephankoelle
Pretty hard to translate, most jokes are lost in translation.

------
tychuz
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Streisand_effect](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Streisand_effect)

~~~
erbo
I came here to say, "How do you say 'Streisand effect' in Turkish?"

------
erikb
Is there anybody discussing that there may be a logic behind this decision?
E.g. Erdogan pressures German publicly to gain advantange in some other
discussions with Germany. Or maybe he wants to gain a stronger following among
his people and they like when he starts a fight with a stronger country, and
he needs that stronger following because his political opposition is quite
strong. Something like that?

I can't believe that he really expected Germany and/or German people to back
down about such a topic.

~~~
gkya
> Is there anybody discussing that there may be a logic behind this decision?
> E.g. Erdogan pressures German publicly to gain advantange in some other
> discussions with Germany. Or maybe he wants to gain a stronger following
> among his people and they like when he starts a fight with a stronger
> country, and he needs that stronger following because his political
> opposition is quite strong. Something like that?

Yes, that in fact, minus the strong opposition. His power is not that big, but
the conjecture allows him to keep on: The three strong opposition parties
cannot form an alliance against his. See my other comments.

------
Mithaldu
Something i haven't seen mentioned much is that the tv station this show is
on, is a public broadcasting station paid for with taxes via the german
government. While it turns out there are laws in place that ensure the
government cannot influence program, it is fairly easy to understand how
Erdogan could take this combination of being mocked by a state tv station
wrongly, and get the impression that contacting the ambassador is the right
step.

~~~
kuschku
There is quite a difference: The station isn’t paid for by taxes from the
government, but the station has the right to _collect its own taxes_ ,
ensuring it can act independently.

~~~
taejo
Moreover, this right is established by a treaty between the German states,
rather than by a law of the federal government.

~~~
elcapitan
So there's basically a media bureaucracy that can decide how much money it
wants to earn, without asking any customers. Awesome!

~~~
kuschku
But they can not decide their own wages, can not carry profits from one year
into the other, and can not hoard excess money.

------
tim333
Go satire! I think Turkey briefly had the record for most journalists jailed
around 2013 but has been overtaken. I'm glad the internet makes such things
less effective.

[http://www.nytimes.com/2013/12/19/world/europe/turkey-
jailin...](http://www.nytimes.com/2013/12/19/world/europe/turkey-jailing-the-
most-journalists.html)

------
PythonicAlpha
Are we already at the same point of history, as it was 1933?

Western democracies are unable to protect democracy or even stand for
democratic rights. Instead they are more fearful about some refugees.

Who does not learn from history, is doomed to repeat it.

------
fiatmoney
It has particularly nasty resonances when Erdogan is alternately threatening
to unleash massive population flows of middle eastern migrants into Germany
and the rest of the continent, and offering to help "solve" the problem for
the right payoff. [https://www.stratfor.com/analysis/eu-and-turkey-reach-
tenuou...](https://www.stratfor.com/analysis/eu-and-turkey-reach-tenuous-
immigration-agreement)

Rather reminiscent of "Finlandization" during the Cold War.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finlandization#Self-
censorship...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finlandization#Self-
censorship_and_excessive_Soviet_adaptation)

------
seivan
How can you be a leader of a country and not be aware of the Streisand effect
or whatever it's called in Turkey related to whoever try to pull those stunts
last time.

~~~
bildung
Why should he care? The twittersphere are not the people voting vor him. His
posturing against the satire got him some nice articles in the local press
(probably with the added spin that it's all about Europe belittling Turkey),
job done.

------
gorkemyurt
Erdogan is loving this New York Times article right now.. This is exactly what
he needs.. A so called non-muslim enemy to rally his supporters against her.
Somehow he made his supporters believe USA Russia Iran and Israel are all
supporters of PKK (Kurds) at the same time. Turks on average read 1 book every
10 years. I don't blame Erdogan, I blame the generation came before us not to
educate themselves.

~~~
egeozcan
I generally agree with your point. However, I have to nitpick a bit:

> Turks on average read 1 book every 10 years.

How did you end up with this conclusion?
[http://mentalfloss.com/article/55344/which-country-reads-
mos...](http://mentalfloss.com/article/55344/which-country-reads-most)

> I blame the generation came before us not to educate themselves.

Do you really believe that your generation is properly educated?

------
aburan28
Turkey is literally the United State's worse ally of the last quarter of a
century besides Saudi Arabia. If it weren't for the geo-strategical importance
and a base for US tactical nukes Turkey would be 3rd world if the US stopped
it's unconditional support of Turkey's shenanigans

------
waylandsmithers
Maybe I'm reading too deep into this, but something about how the writer put
this story together makes me think it is an allegory for what could happen if
Trump becomes president.

~~~
doguozkan
We do call Trump "America's Erdogan".

------
golemotron
The Streisand Effect is very powerful. Erdogan might get a clue.

I don't hold as much hope for people on who, counter to their stated aims,
Streisand people into prominence by no-platforming them.

------
whatok
[https://www.rt.com/usa/337782-erdogan-security-protest-
washi...](https://www.rt.com/usa/337782-erdogan-security-protest-washington/)

Screaming “Terrorist Erdogan” and displaying homemade signs, a group of
protesters are approached by members of the Turkish president’s security
detail, who then proceed to comically yell and drown out the negative chants.

------
aluhut
Funny how this seems to be the first thing in the refugee crisis that reunites
the right and left-wing bandwagons. Even if the right-wing wagon should
support Erdogan but they can't since he's turkish/muslim/whatever.

Böhmermann killed that freedom today with his song though ;)

------
tempodox
Funny how someone like Erdogan can be so eminently stupid.

~~~
xufi
Oh he's said some stupid things over the years. You'd be surprised but the US
knows they don't want to lose him even though he's pretty much a dictator but
takes orders

------
ryan606
The Streisand Effect in action.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Streisand_effect](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Streisand_effect)

------
franzpeterstein
why show me nyt on my smartphone a login, but on desktop nothin'?

~~~
joantune
because of a 'nytimes protection' that only allows you to read 10
articles/month. You're supposed to be a 'hacker' so ask yourself, how does the
WWW allows one to be tracked (don't think of the more advanced methods [HSTS,
WebGL and the sort] think of how the actual vintage WWW protocol allows one to
do that).

PS: for a quick solution, use incognito mode.

~~~
franzpeterstein
>> think of how the actual vintage WWW protocol allows one to do that.

Thank you for your inspiring comment.

------
armaxt
Why is it hard to understand that islam and western values just can NOT
coexist?

Why is it hard to understand that "real" muslims are convinced that western
values are simply weaknesses that must be quickly exploited to destroy the
western civilization?

~~~
selimthegrim
Those Orthodox and Catholic countries sure had a grand old time with democracy
before the positivists came about, huh?

