
Avenger controller company pisses off gaming community with bad customer support - jamesmoss
http://penny-arcade.com/2011/12/26/just-wow1
======
glimcat
From about five seconds of Google, it looks like the actual product was made
by David Kotkin and is considered to be rather significant for disabled users.

[http://www.ablegamers.com/hardware-news/interview-with-
aveng...](http://www.ablegamers.com/hardware-news/interview-with-avenger-
controller-creator-david-kotkin.html)

Paul Christoforo is just some schmuck at the contracted marketing company,
because the product was put together by an art teacher trying to make small-
quantity disability aids and not someone trying to launch a major business.

Due diligence regarding fact-checking has apparently slipped below the
threshold of "punch it into Google."

~~~
scotty79
I wonder if anyone at Ocean Marketing and among the people who make Avengers
had any idea how Paul Christoforo rolls.

Another point towards "trust but check" policy towards your employees.

~~~
Samuel_Michon
From the looks of it, Paul Christoforo = Ocean Marketing.

The website [1] lists "Paul@OceanMarketingInc.com" as the only email address,
and the bio for the Twitter account "oceanmarketting" has his name and picture
as avatar.

[1] <http://oceanmarketinginc.com/Contact-Us.php>

~~~
fjarlq
I think that's all correct, except for the Twitter account, which I believe
was created by another disgruntled customer (Nathan Stansell) a few months
ago, following a similar exchange with Paul Christoforo. It looks like
Stansell is now retweeting messages related to the new controversy.

<http://www.natesnetwork.com/Poor-customer-service>

 _"2:45 am. Created a Twitter account just so i could Tweet a comment and link
to Mr Paul Christoforo at Ocean Marketing. @OceanMarketting - Am i still one
little person out of Millions sir?"_

~~~
mkr-hn
That was the right account, but it changed. Someone registered the old name
and started tweeting stuff. The website was still pulling tweets from the
original account a few minutes ago.

The new account for the original is <https://twitter.com/#!/oceanstratagy>

~~~
fjarlq
Ocean _Stratagy_? How could either of these misspelled Twitter accounts be
legit?

~~~
eropple
The evidence points to illiteracy.

~~~
danilocampos
Oh, my goodness. A truly funny comment on Hacker News. Thank you for this.

------
manuscreationis
At the risk of taking a potentially unpopular opinion on the subject, I don't
think either one of those people come out looking too good.

I'm all for doing the whole "CC your formal complaint letter to several
outlets in hopes that someone will take notice" approach; My brother taught me
about doing this when I was a little kid. He would write letters (this was
before the advent of the internet) and note on the bottom that they had been
CCd to various local news outlets, as well as the better business bureau
(regardless of whether or not he actually sent those additional letters). And
almost always, it worked.

But I would be absolutely embarrassed to have my name attached to his
complaint that got sent around. He is understandably, and in some cases
justifiably, upset by the companies lack of communication and flippant nature,
but this is no time to get into a pissing match. He chose to stoop to the guys
level with name calling and taunting: Welcome to the internet bitch? Thats how
I roll? It sounds like something you'd see on a meme, not something you want
to end a complaint letter with.

That said, the guy on Oceans end is clearly the winner when it comes to
idiotic behavior, as he further digs his own grave down the line. I just can't
cut the customer any slack on stooping to Oceans level, however. He comes off
sounding like almost as big of an idiot as the guy at Ocean.

Just my 2 cents, I'm sure others will see it differently

~~~
DanBC
> _I'm all for doing the whole "CC your formal complaint letter to several
> outlets in hopes that someone will take notice" approach;_

I recognise that many people working in customer support roles have lousy jobs
with lousy wages and are treated like dirt by customers and by bosses.

So my first approach is a nice, short, letter explaining the problem and
asking for help. People like to help, and they like to help nice people. If I
get help I always follow up with thanks to them, and if possible I find a
manager to write to saying how pleased I am that a problem was sorted out by
$NAME.

I agree that having your name attached to some childish ranting is not a good
approach at all.

~~~
BiosElement
As someone who works in support on a daily basis, I can vouch that being nice
makes everything go a whole lot smoother.

~~~
DanBC
The other tip I heard (which has worked for me) is to say something like "I
need help to ask the right question, because I don't know how the process
works. Here's what I want; what do I need to do to make that happen?". This is
more for bureaucracy but also works for some customer service stuff.

~~~
pmcginn
As someone else who worked in customer service, this is very true. There is a
lot of stuff we're not allowed to offer, but if you specifically ask for it we
can give it to you. So please, ask questions, and be polite. No one calls
customer service to say "everything I bought works perfectly and I'm happy
with you and your company. Have an awesome day!"

I dealt with angry people just about every second of every day. The job has
huge turnover for a reason. Please remember you're dealing with your fellow
man, and even if you're angry, it's not (yet) his or her fault that you are.

------
frou_dh
The takeaway seems to be don't let a raging idiot near customers in the first
place.

There's a second documented encounter with the guy from 6 months ago:
<http://www.natesnetwork.com/Poor-customer-service>

~~~
TezzellEnt
Paul Christoforo should never be in charge of a customer facing position.

Maybe he should take the advice on (his) Ocean Marketing's front page: "Your
brand is no stronger than your reputation - and will increasingly depend on
what comes up when you are Googled."

I wonder what will come up after all this is over.

~~~
drzaiusapelord
I picture Paul like a real life Tom Haverford from Parks. The "you got told
bitch" line is pure Tom.

------
elliottcarlson
Both IGN and Engadget have tweeted about this:

.@OceanMarketting Please refrain from referring to me or IGN as support for
you, your company or your clients. You do not have it.

<http://twitter.com/#!/ScottLowe/status/151595644182740992>

<http://twitter.com/#!/engadget/status/151673881671905281>

------
FuzzyDunlop
The guy must fancy himself as a bit of a mob boss/gangster. Maybe got too into
The Sopranos? There's a point where you can start reading it all in Chris
Moltisanti's voice.

The fella making the complaint was hardly better, but seeing as the guy he was
talking to was being unprofessional (at the very least) right off the bat, his
only fault is letting his frustration get the better of him.

~~~
sunchild
One of the golden rules of Sicilian "organized crime syndicates" is that you
never, ever introduce yourself as a member or as someone who is connected. It
is a hard and fast requirement that you are introduced by someone else who is
inside.

This goes back to the earliest days of protection racketeering on the island,
and is taken extremely seriously even today.

I'm not sure if the Campania/Napolitani families follow the same tradition,
but it's a pretty good bet that if someone even so much as implies that
they're "connected" to an Italian syndicate, they're not.

Also, if you think pretending to be a cop is a bad idea, try pretending to be
affiliated with gangsters...

------
Hominem
Yeah, the inventor David Kotkin is/was a teacher and inventor in Miami
Florida, he was actually on local news demoing it. It seems it is being sold
by a company called iNcontrol Enterprises LLC.

Interestingly, all the press releases up until march 2011 for iNcontrol were
done by a florida operation called The HAND Media who seem slightly more legit
than Ocean Marketing.

Ocean marketing seems to be mainly interested in promoting his ebay auctions
on Twitter.

Someone needs to get in touch with Kotkin and let him know the situation, that
his marketing firm seems to have fallen down on the job.

~~~
Hominem
The biz dev guy from n-control is on the case <https://twitter.com/Tatterr>

~~~
sunchild
I love how this guy's tweets are all him announcing what game he's playing
until this controversy flared up. He must be pretty annoyed about the dent
this is making in his non-stop gaming lifestyle.

~~~
Hominem
I actually feel bad for these guys. They put trust in a supposedly
professional,albeit somewhat slimy seeming with the pushing ebay auctions on
the corporate Twitter account, marketing firm and this blows up over Christmas
weekend.

I worked with a really terrible marketing and pr firm myself when I was
working for a small startup years ago. We were featured in the NYT, but our PR
firm misrepresented us in such an insane way we could only conclude the firm
didn't even know what we were doing. It turned what should have been a coup
for us into a massive blow to our business.

------
ropman76
Agreed neither came off very well. But for the PR guy this should have been a
walk in the park to deal with. I used to do customer service at an oversized
health insurance company this would have been considered a mild case. You make
a note in your outlook (or whatever you use) to check on the situation every
once in awhile, send a nicely worded email saying you are personally following
the situation and when it is done thanks them for their patience. Sure
customers are not always happy but let’s face it the company broke its
promise. Instead this PR guy gets his ego on and for that he should be fired.
He was unprofessional when he should have known better.

------
fedxc
Here is the Google since it looks down right now:

[http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:http://...](http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:http://penny-
arcade.com/2011/12/26/just-wow1&hl=en&strip=1)

------
MichaelJW
New update from Gabe: <http://penny-arcade.com/2011/12/26/an-update1>

"When these assholes threaten me or Penny Arcade I just laugh. I will
personally burn everything I’ve made to the fucking ground if I think I can
catch them in the flames."

~~~
Tloewald
"I think there is a big difference between being sorry and being sorry you got
caught. I have a real problem with bullies. I spent my childhood moving from
school to school and I got made fun of everyplace I landed. I feel like Paul
is a bully and maybe that’s why I have no sympathy here. Someday every bully
meets and even bigger bully and maybe that’s me in this case. It’s the same
thing that happened with Jack Thompson. It might not always make the most
business sense and it is a policy that has caused us some legal problems, but
I really don’t give a shit about that. When these assholes threaten me or
Penny Arcade I just laugh. I will personally burn everything I’ve made to the
fucking ground if I think I can catch them in the flames."

I think in context the quoted line is more about how Gabe feels about bullies.

~~~
MichaelJW
Apologies, I did not mean to misrepresent him.

------
dlss
Sigh. This may actually be good PR :(

I had never heard of this controller until this story. It looks really cool.
How other many people is that true for?

edit/update: this story is #2 on the vanilla reddit front page.

~~~
Splines
Hah - that'd be a good story.

"I'll be a complete internet jerkwad, and get you in front of thousands of
people. Disassociate yourself from me when the shit hits the fan."

As long as you're careful about not letting the internet detectives dig _too_
deeply, you could probably re-invent yourself and do this repeatedly.

However, I'm a little unsure how many people would be willing to work with you
on this. Great tin-foil hat material though.

------
jschuur
Note the guy's Twitter account: @OceanMarketting (with two Ts!).

~~~
jschuur
Actually, wait... he renamed it to @OceanStratagy! Yup, that last A is no
typo!

<http://twitter.com/OceanStratagy>

And then someone else registered @OceanStrategy with the correct spelling:

<https://twitter.com/#!/OceanStrategy>

------
vaksel
I like how the guy is completely clueless about who he is talking to.

He is in marketing, and didn't know someone like that?

And this whole thing could have just been avoided with a measly $10 coupon.

~~~
polymatter
Well according to the copy posted in the email "As a token of our appreciation
we are offering all our pre-order customers and new customers 10$ off your
next order with us just enter Avenger1001 at Checkout".

So the company was even offering that measly $10 coupon that the pre-order
customer wanted!

~~~
carols10cents
Except that new customers could use that $10 on the controller that pre-order
customers had already purchased, while pre-order customers would have to buy
something else (your next order) in order to use the $10 coupon.

------
lallysingh
What happened to talking to your customers in complete sentences?

~~~
Vivtek
When you're eating sushi in a Jacuzzi with the Mayor of Boston, you don't need
to type well.

~~~
uptown
Have you ever heard the Mayor of Boston speak? You don't really even need to
speak well.

------
SRSimko
Ok this will sound completely naive but whatever happened to the customer is
always right? Ok yes, I agree that is a bit overstated but in this case he was
right and Gabe came out all puffed up and aggressive from the start and
continued and continued (I actually like at the end when he realizes who he is
emailing back and forth to). Maybe I'm just naive but I believe the smart
businessman (woman) puts the customers first.

------
hkarthik
The whole thing seems too incredulous to be true and feels like a PR stunt.

If it is true, and it makes this guy's products even more popular, then I fear
for fate of humanity.

------
scottshea
Surprisingly Paul Christoforo has also been in Health Care & Realty and has a
degree in Culinary Arts... according to his LinkedIn page:
<http://www.linkedin.com/pub/paul-christoforo/1/295/835>

------
shearn89
I love the part where he tries to get back on Mike (Krahulik's) better side:
"Did I feed into his emails a little bit too much yeah ok . But it’s one
person dude for real. No disrespect intended for you , My name is good in this
industry and I know a lot of people."

But then goes off on one when Mike posts a slightly glib "take me off this
mailing list"!

I agree with FuzzyDunlop, definitely been watching waaay too much Sopranos.

EDIT: The dude seriously needs to learn to punctuate sentences better, some of
those could definitely use some commas!

~~~
morsch
His insistence on putting a space in front of punctuation marks alone makes me
cringe.

~~~
shabble
I've noticed this is common amongst a number of dyslexics I've known.

------
aeontech
Unfortunately firing Ocean Marketing may still be too little too late. Amazon
ratings for the product[1] are already in the dumps because of this debacle,
and I doubt many of those reviewers will go back and change their reviews as
the situation goes along.

[1] <http://www.amazon.com/dp/B005CMZJL6/>

------
JayNeely
Reddit thread with on-going updates:

[http://www.reddit.com/r/gaming/comments/ns2pu/pa_makers_of_a...](http://www.reddit.com/r/gaming/comments/ns2pu/pa_makers_of_avenger_controllers_take_money_and/c3bi6gs)

------
CosmicShadow
Just love how some people's default is to be a dick instead of just simply
saying sorry, we tried and things didn't work out.

------
powertower
Is it just me, or does the customer come off as a bit of an asshole that's
creating/feeding about 50% of the dramma he is complaining about.

~~~
jonhendry
The customer paid his money, and he got no controller, just bullshit excuses
and evasion and abuse. That gives him the right to complain. And he certainly
started with a reasonable tone.

It doesn't help that Christoforo is selling the controllers off his ebay
account, which says they are shipping from Massachusetts, while his 'company'
claims to be in California.

<http://www.ebay.com/itm/230687329514#ht_2193wt_1398>

So a paid order isn't filled on time, but this guy has controllers to sell on
ebay?

Makes me wonder if he's been diverting the controllers, i.e. stealing them,
and selling them out from under the company.

~~~
powertower
The way I read it went like this...

1\. Customer makes a $50 purchase. 2\. Merchant gets over his head with new
business, makes some mistakes. 3\. Customer flips out on second email to
merchant, tries to create problems for him with Visa. 4\. Customer proceeds
into a "principle" (aka ego) driven exchange with merchant that goes nowhere,
turns into some kind of a pissing contest.

------
ycomb
I am not pissed off at Ocean Marketing. In fact I love the put downs in their
emails. Of course it was awful customer support. But damn. Mike K of Penny
Arcade tries to flex his muscle saying he runs Pax. The Ocean Marketing rep
did not give a damn, and took the piss out of him too. LMAO!

~~~
lparry
I think you missed it. Mike said he ran PAX, the guy didn't recognize the name
and started tying to name drop and claiming he'd get a booth if he wanted one.
When the penny dropped that mike == gabe, and there's no way they'll be at PAX
if he doesn't want them there, the penny drops and his tone changes

~~~
ryan-allen
And may I add, like a complete coward in the follow up [1] to Gabe, pleads for
him to make it all stop, whatever it is. I think this bloke gets what he
deserves.

Thought it's mostly just another idiot on the internet, there are lots of
those. The grandiose clams he made about his connections and sales are
probably false. The shock value is in the fact that he _might_ be connected
and powerful and is acting as such, though connected powerful people don't do
such a thing (over email, at least).

[1] <http://penny-arcade.com/resources/an-update1.html>

