
Google to Microsoft: Remove your YouTube App from the Windows Phone Store - Avalaxy
http://www.wpcentral.com/google-microsoft-remove-youtube-windows-phone-store
======
shadowmint
The Microsoft PR machine in full motion again I see.

1) Build app that clearly violates spirit and word of TOS, steals content,
blocks ads.

2) Complain and act surprised like Google is being a bad guy when told to take
it down.

3) ???

4) Profit!

Now they just need to some how spin in some automatic #droidfail hash tags to
all the videos they show in the app and it'll be perfect!

Idiots.

(No, not the developers. I feel an immense sympathy for the people who had to
work on this; their managers are the ones who are idiots)

~~~
cooldeal
You're right, Microsoft PR sucks.

Google PR on the other hand, is extremely good, they have lots of people
believing they're all about "do no evil" and "open" while laughing all the way
to the bank.

~~~
jlgreco
> _laughing all the way to the bank._

I agree, how dare they make money.

------
bryanjclark
"This isn’t the first time Windows Phone users have been shafted by the
Mountain View company not willing to develop for the platform."

Bullshit - this isn't Google screwing over Microsoft, it's Microsoft being
idiots. If MSFT built a YouTube app that didn't blatantly violate Google's
policies, I don't think it'd be a problem.

YouTube wants viewers, regardless of which platform they're coming from.

~~~
CloudNine
>YouTube wants viewers, regardless of which platform they're coming from.

Then why don't they make an Windows Phone YouTube app and show ads on it?
Hell, show double the ads just to annoy WP users. Or are they afraid that it
will hurt Android?

~~~
bishnu
My guess is, [expected revenue per user] * [expected number of Windows Mobile
users] - [cost to build a decent YouTube app] is a negative number.

~~~
nivla
Yet they have an official chrome browser app for Windows 8.

~~~
eddieroger
Yeah, it shares a codebase with the Windows 7 version if it's different at
all. The number of Windows 7 + Windows 8 installs is far greater than Windows
Phone users.

------
cypher543
The comments on that article are atrocious. It's like one big fanboy rage
orgy. I like Microsoft and all, but Google seems to have a legitimate claim
here. All Microsoft needs to do is update the app to comply with the YouTube
TOS, which doesn't seem like that big of a deal.

~~~
cooldeal
How do they update the app if Google doesn't give them access to the API? They
need to kill it and millions of Windows Phone users will be left with no legal
YouTube app.

Also, if you're referring to the comments on WPCentral, of course, it's
"Windows Phone Central" where obviously fans and users of Windows Phone who
got frustrated for years with the lack of a quality YouTube app on their phone
hang out.

~~~
cpncrunch
That's not Google's problem. What law says that Google needs to provide an
API? This is just embarrassing for Microsoft. Basically google doesn't think
it's worth spending the time developing an app for Windows Phone, and
Microsoft then tries to hack it together by themselves, illegally.

I haven't ported any of my own apps to Win Phone either - what's the point
when nobody is using it? Out of 60,000 visits to our site over a given period,
4000 are iOS, 2000 Android, 50 blackberry and 20 Windows Phone. We haven't
bothered with blackberry either (apart from providing an html5 version).

Face it Microsoft: Windows Phone is a dismal failure.

~~~
nivla
>Face it Microsoft: Windows Phone is a dismal failure.

So did a smart guy say once about Apple. I went from being a hardcore Android
fan to just falling in love with my Lumia phone. Everyone I know who has a
windows phone has been happy with it. So no I don't think it is a dismal
failure.

I have found replacements for most Google services but there doesn't exist or
may never exist one for Youtube. I was a user of Youtube before Google was a
buyer, so yes it sucks to be given a second class treatment because you made
the unpopular choice for your phone. Hope this doesn't repeat, you know with
Ubuntu and Firefox phones coming out.

~~~
r00fus
> So did a smart guy say once about Apple.

Who ever did is either eating crow for that, or isn't as smart as he claimed.

Microsoft has been in the mobile business for a _long_ time. They have tried
to re-invent their offerings at least two times, probably more. There are a
lot of OEMs with knives in their backs (e.g.: Sendo, OQO) in the wake.

That they have failed to succeed after blowing such a lead and countless
investment dollars is a real organizational character failure on their part.
That some in Redmond think they're still winning is even sadder.

~~~
CloudNine
Windows Phone is seeing decent numbers, 6 million in the last quarters. The
lack of apps like YouTube and Instagram is hurting the platform and they're
showing they're serious about fixing that issuee by picking a fight with
Google.

~~~
codeka
So 6 million Windows Phones in a whole quarter, compared to 6 million Android
phones in about 10 days... yeah, they're going _great_.

~~~
cmircea
You don't get market share overnight when your platform has 100x less apps. On
the same note devs don't want to write apps for WP because it has no market
share.

See the issue?

------
kailuowang
I wonder how this app got approval from Microsoft's own legal department.

~~~
Avalaxy
I think the wishes of the legal department are of less importance than the
overall need for good apps on the Windows Phone platform. Google didn't have
the time/resources to build a Windows Phone app, so Microsoft did. And they
did it well. But now that the app is in the Store, Google wants it removed.
That's not a matter of 'no time/resources', that's just a matter of bullying.
They've been boycotting the Windows Phone and Windows 8 platforms ever since
the launch...

Quite typical actually. Google is the only tech giant with a slogan like
"don't be evil", yet they are the only evil tech giant at the moment
(Microsoft has gotten a lot better the last few years imho).

~~~
necubi
If you actually read the article, you'd see the issue is not dislike of WP.
The issue is that Microsoft is stripping off the ads that fund Youtube and its
content, in violation of the YouTube terms of service. It also includes a
button that allows people to download videos which is, again, a violation of
the ToS.

~~~
recoiledsnake
>If you actually read the article, you'd see the issue is not dislike of WP.
The issue is that Microsoft is stripping off the ads that fund Youtube and its
content, in violation the YouTube ToS. It also includes a button that allows
people to download videos which is, again, a violation of the ToS.

Crossposting my own comment from another thread.

So, for years, Google's stated reason for lack of a Youtube client was that
Windows Phone didn't have enough marketshare, and now suddenly it has so many
users that it loses so many ad impressions because Microsoft's Youtube that
the content creators are suffering because all the millions of freeloaders
using Windows Phone?

i.e It doesn't care enough for the ad impressions on Windows Phone to itself
make an app , but when MS does, the loss of the same revenue is the reason for
sending the lawyers in and pulling the app?

~~~
pyre
So, when Microsoft's IP is infringed (patents, etc), it's a tragedy. When
Google's (or its partner's) IP is infringed it's something sinister. Gotcha.

~~~
mortehu
Are you suggesting that software patents are as worthwhile as videos and
music?

------
rlpb
Microsoft's statement: "We'd be more than happy to include advertising but
need Google to provide us access to the necessary APIs."

What's interesting is what they don't say. They don't say that Google have
refused to provide them this, or even that they asked Google for this.

Assuming that Google's complaint of "Prevents the display of advertisements in
YouTube video playbacks" is a TOS violation, it looks to me that Microsoft
violated their TOS first, and are only now trying to imply that Google are the
bad guys.

------
tagabek
As mentioned above by shadowmint, it seems that Microsoft is looking for some
attention, and they have already succeeded. Well done.

But what are the long-term effects on the growth of what Microsoft really
needs (a thriving third-party mobile development community)? I could be biased
because of Google I/O's hype effect, but things like this only make me lean
towards Android as my next platform to develop for (coming from iOS).

I agree with the definitional meaning of Microsoft's retaliation - large
companies should work together to create amazing content (ie. cross-platform
Youtube app) for their mutual users. As always, it's a shame to see immature
rivalries come between progress.

------
kumarm
Microsoft's single agenda these days to derail Google is hurting Microsoft and
is only benefiting Google.

50% of top windows8 (RT) paid apps are in Gross violation of
Copyright/Trademarks (Mind you including microsoft's own
Copyright/Trademarks).

Instead of cleaning up that mess and providing proper opportunities for
legitimate developers, why is microsoft encouraging doing something by
violating TOS of another major company?

------
krubu
Microsoft to Google: "lol go fuck yourselves".

There's no reason whatsoever Microsoft should comply to those ridiculous
demands.

And it's awesome that Microsoft removed those YouTube antifeatures for users,
they for once deserve to be thanked for the good they are doing.

Google is looking more and more like the evil one (although far less evil than
Apple or Oracle).

~~~
fpgeek
There are lots of reasons for Microsoft to comply with these demands.

At least one reason for each major media company Microsoft currently partners
with (or wants to in the future)... They, after all, are the ones most
invested in these particular YouTube anti-features. And should Microsoft
stymie Google, I'd predict that they won't remain on the sidelines.

------
duncan_bayne
FTA: "Not just remove the app, but also disable existing downloads of the app.
Aka, the “kill switch”, which (as far as we can remember) has only been used
once before."

And this is why app stores - as implemented by Google, Microsoft and Apple -
are evil. 'Bought' an app? Think again.

~~~
itafroma
> And this is why app stores - as implemented by Google, Microsoft and Apple -
> are evil.

Evil involves intent, not capability. For example, a car can hurt or even kill
someone, but it's not evil. Someone who intentionally and willfully runs down
pedestrians with a car would, however, definitely qualify.

Here's how the three companies have used their kill switch:

\- Microsoft has used their kill switch once to disable a pirated app

\- As far as I'm aware, Apple has never used their kill switch, even for
pirated apps or apps that were pulled for various reasons (scams, tethering
apps, etc.)

\- Google routinely uses its kill switch to remove malware and "practically
useless"[1] apps

So the the real questions are: is using the kill switch to combat piracy evil?
What about malware? "Useless" apps? What about not using the kill switch at
all for any reason?

[1]:
[http://readwrite.com/2010/06/25/google_activates_android_kil...](http://readwrite.com/2010/06/25/google_activates_android_kill_switch_zaps_useless_apps)

------
1010011010
Microsoft is a bad actor. No sympathy for them at all

------
jbigelow76
When I saw the original app announcement (also on wpcentral) I quickly
downloaded even though I already purchased metrotube, which is a perfectly
good YouTube app for Windows Phone. I knew it wouldn't end well with the
download of video and ad removal features. Now I play the waiting game to see
if Microsoft nukes the app remotely after they are eventually forced to
acquiesce :)

------
rbanffy
Does anyone seriously believe violating the YT TOS in the app was an honest
mistake?

This is ridiculous. Why would anyone expect a special TOS just for Microsoft?

------
joeblau
I have a Windows Phone so I just tested some of these objections out.

> Allows users to download videos from YouTube

That was pretty cool, but I honestly don't need that. I can already download
any video from anywhere online using Google Chrome and the curl trick.

> Prevents the display of advertisements in YouTube video playbacks

I never saw ads on the mobile web version of YouTube, but this could be a
problem when Google wants to insert them.

> Plays videos that our partners have restricted from playback on certain
> platforms (e.g., mobile devices with limited feature sets)

This was great! I actually remember trying to play a video that worked on my
laptop and failed on my phone. I just went back to that same video and it
worked.

The overall mobile web experience of YouTube is terrible on my Windows phone
(and on my iPhone). Since most of you guys are probably iPhone users here is
an analogy. It's like trying to switch from a native iOS maps (Apple or Google
made) client, to Googles web version of maps. Yeah it works and does
everything, but the performance is crap compared to the native mobile
application.

------
sbuk
Simple solution; screew Google and offer Vimeo instead. In my opinion, the
quality in both sense is better there...

~~~
ben0x539
Vimeo doesn't want a lot of kinds of videos though:
<http://vimeo.com/help/guidelines>

For a lot of people, it's not an option.

------
GhotiFish
Lots of hate on Microsoft "It's a secret ploy to deceive innocent hackers into
thinking Google is anti user. HISSSSSSSS"

The fact is, Microsoft built a user-centric application, focusing on all the
things a user might want to do. An application that treated youtube's servers
exactly for what they were, servers, servers serving content. No different
than browsers that have ad blocking extensions, or extensions to download
videos, or whatever else a computer might want to do with data (did you know a
smartphone is computer? Cool huh? ).

Microsoft made an application that put the user first. Finally. Even if this
is just a PR stunt, even if they have the worst intentions, they did the right
thing. If Google wants to contend this they can go suck on my freedom.

The proper response to this was: "Wow Microsoft, great app!" It doesn't MATTER
what Microsoft's intentions were.

------
wglb
Consider the idea that an article might get flagged due to the level of flame
war generated by a particular topic, and you don't need a conspiracy theory to
explain its downdraft.

------
Ecio78
Interesting compared to how Samsung dealt with this "problem" for a third-
party app that they've just awarded of best app award:

[http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&...](http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=it&ie=UTF-8&eotf=1&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.chefuturo.it%2F2012%2F11%2Fla-
app-made-in-sicily-piu-scaricata-del-mondo-non-ce-piu%2F)

------
skc
So I'm curious about something.

1\. Do ad blockers remove ads from YouTube? 2\. Do the people in support of
Google's stance use ad blockers?

~~~
CloudNine
Would be interesting to see people's reactions if Google sent a takedown
notice to addons.mozilla.org for AdBlock because it's hurting video creators
and web sites.

~~~
makomk
So far they don't seem to have even taken down YouTube ad blockers from their
own Chrome store, unlike video downloaders that support YouTube.

------
ankitml
They dont publicize "Dont be evil" much these day. True. They shouldnt even.

------
belorn
Why are the article calling it the official YouTube app? It seems a strange
use of the word official, as normally that would imply a Youtube (or google)
made application.

Is the word _native_ the common term here?

------
lucb1e
Oh, the first paragraph explains why Youtube's official app sucks so much (no
offline caching etc.). Piracy and piracy prevention ruins it all (even when it
are laughable prevention methods).

------
cooldeal
Edit: [[[ This story is getting heavily flagged as well.

<http://i.imgur.com/LiUSpCy.png>

Looks like the Google fans, employees and shareholders on HN with good karma
can't let this story break on the day of Google I/O? And people accuse
Microsoft of astroturfing! What is this then?

If PG does not want to stop this blatant and continuous moderator abuse, he
might as well declare HN a Google and Linux fiefdom so that the rest of us
using other platforms and who can think for ourselves and are not Microsoft
haters can stay away. ]]]

Posted this story earlier and it got flagged off the front page.

<https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5714520>

Reposting my comment here:

This is the latest in a long saga. From a post from Microsoft in 2011:

First, in 2006 Google acquired YouTube—and since then it has put in place a
growing number of technical measures to restrict competing search engines from
properly accessing it for their search results. Without proper access to
YouTube, Bing and other search engines cannot stand with Google on an equal
footing in returning search results with links to YouTube videos and that, of
course, drives more users away from competitors and to Google.

Second, in 2010 and again more recently, Google blocked Microsoft’s new
Windows Phones from operating properly with YouTube. Google has enabled its
own Android phones to access YouTube so that users can search for video
categories, find favorites, see ratings, and so forth in the rich user
interfaces offered by those phones. It’s done the same thing for the iPhones
offered by Apple, which doesn’t offer a competing search service.

Unfortunately, Google has refused to allow Microsoft’s new Windows Phones to
access this YouTube metadata in the same way that Android phones and iPhones
do. As a result, Microsoft’s YouTube “app” on Windows Phones is basically just
a browser displaying YouTube’s mobile Web site, without the rich functionality
offered on competing phones. Microsoft is ready to release a high quality
YouTube app for Windows Phone. We just need permission to access YouTube in
the way that other phones already do, permission Google has refused to
provide.

[http://blogs.technet.com/b/microsoft_on_the_issues/archive/2...](http://blogs.technet.com/b/microsoft_on_the_issues/archive/2011/03/30/adding-
our-voice-to-concerns-about-search-in-europe.aspx)

~~~
OGinparadise
My bet is on Google employees. I get a good dozen or so downvotes from them
when I post something negative about Google. Usually it happens in a short
period of time, as if someone gave them marching orders.

I have also noticed that Googlers aren't fans of saying "Disclaimer: I work
for Google" but go straight into praising Google's Product A and Feature B as
if they had no bias.

"Google is good and Microsoft is evil" is getting a little tiring and IMO is
no longer true. Google will do almost anything for a quick buck:

[http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2012/jan/13/google-
keny...](http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2012/jan/13/google-kenyan-rival-
mocality-database)
[http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142405311190478740457652...](http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424053111904787404576528332418595052.html)
[http://money.cnn.com/2010/08/05/technology/google_verizon_ne...](http://money.cnn.com/2010/08/05/technology/google_verizon_net_neutrality_rules/index.htm)

Just imagine what may hide in their black box algorithms as Google claims
fairness an unbiased results.

~~~
blhack
>I dislike large corporations of all stripes (especially smooth talking ones)
that are trying to take over the web for their own financial good.

From you profile. You don't think that _maybe_ this bias is showing through in
some of your comments?

~~~
OGinparadise
So what? People have biases, I never claimed to be unbiased and we're just
sharing our opinions. I do not get paid by anyone for what I say. What I said
about Google is heretic to some, only because they have this notion of an
angelic Google. They'd believe it for Apple, most other companies and
especially for Facebook and Microsoft.

Anyway, bed time is almost here.

~~~
burntsushi
> So what?

Unless I missed something, your OP was one big complaint about biases.

~~~
pfortuny
Not bias: abuse of power which is quite a different thing. On HN opinions only
have interest, votes have power.

~~~
burntsushi
Abuse? Votes are influenced by bias. Abuse only happens when there is a large
coordinated effort to snuff something out.

~~~
pfortuny
No: you abuse a vote when you vote not led by reason but by opinion. Downvotes
are not for differences of opinion but for lack of interest, etc...

Downvoting affects directly the visibility of a message and this should not be
based on opinion.

~~~
burntsushi
Since when is reason not influenced by bias?

You seem to be splitting hairs here. The OP complained about the bias of
others but didn't like it when he had his own biases pointed out.

I'm suspicious of any claim that says "votes" somehow have more "power" than
words. Words, opinions and ideas all have power too.

------
recoiledsnake
There's an ongoing discussion in this thread.

<https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5714639>

------
jonas_maj
I think Vimeo deserves more love. It allows you to download videos too which
is very handy. Windows Phone and Windows 8 users will be better off in the
long run using Vimeo. I think Google has made it pretty clear by now that
Windows users are not welcome in their ecosystem.

