
Google's Civil War - prostoalex
http://fortune.com/longform/inside-googles-civil-war/
======
ddebernardy
[https://outline.com/ggbLy5](https://outline.com/ggbLy5) to get past the
obnoxious mandatory cookie.

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thrower123
Also gets rid of the awful autoplay video above the fold that starts blaring
out immediately. Thanks!

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lisper
Simply disabling Javascript works too.

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skookumchuck
This is why I use a separate system to play music, not my computer.

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chuckout5783
Throwaway account: the "civil war" is from a bunch of self-aggrandizing
assholes. Yes there have been some big stunts (e.g. the walk out), but on the
whole this counts for nothing for the rank and file employees that I know and
work with.

About as far as most people o work with go in terms of "civil war" is changing
their profile picture to say "no to retaliation" which is so vapid and
pathetic it's not even worth doing.

~~~
googthrow2019
Agreed. Management needs to fire these people. If they sue, great: Google's
ensuing victory will create a precedent that workplace protections do not
extend to unbounded activism that employees falsely claim is whistleblowing.

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inlined
This was a fine recap; I’m surprised more hasn’t leaked to the press. Google’s
culture is shifting for the worse, but I won’t give specifics because that
would require leaking.

~~~
inlined
I would define Google’s troubles or decline in three parts:

1\. Outrage over previous sexual misconduct 2\. Outrage over Google seeking
amoral revenue streams 3\. Declination of perks

The first one is just the chickens coming to roost. The second two I’ve always
felt we’re due to a transition in CFOs.

~~~
repolfx
_Alleged_ misconduct. That's what Googlers seem to have lost sight of.

Take Andy Rubin. One of Google's most valuable executives, he built up Android
from nothing. He has a consensual relationship with a woman, but it starts to
cool off and fade away. Around this time she accuses him of "pressuring" her
into a sexual act, but the whole thing happened behind closed doors and
there's no way to know what really happened.

Has he done anything wrong? Who knows? Google can't actually adjudicate this
dispute, and Rubin claims innocence. In the ultra-feminist environment Google
has accepted internally a woman can't ever be disbelieved so Rubin must be
punished. But the situation is deeply unjust and everyone knows it. Rubin did
great things for Google, and Google is now rewarding him by stabbing him in
the back. So an arrangement is made: everyone stays quiet and the pain of the
injustice and betrayal is soothed with a big payment.

Years later Googlers find out about this situation and instead of being
outraged that a successful executive was fired on the basis of nothing more
than heresay by someone _he was in a relationship with_ , are outraged that he
wasn't treated even more harshly. What message does this send to the future
Rubins of the world? It says: don't team up with Google.

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idlewords
I'd be curious to hear rank-and-file Googlers' views on how this dynamic is
playing out within the company. It's in both journalists' and organizers'
interests to play it up, so the reality can be hard to discern.

~~~
Eridrus
Like every issue, there are those who are obsessed with it, for whom it takes
over their lives, and then there is a large swath of people who either agree
or not, but do so without much intensity.

Since the intensity of most people's beliefs is low and the specific issues
are not part of day to day work, it's not really a thing that comes up except
when new news breaks and people talk about it at lunch for a day.

When you take a look at how many people, in an industry where it's trivial to
get another job, quit over any of these issues, it's in the single digits.

~~~
inlined
The set may be larger than reported. E.g. I didn’t sign the Maven petition
because I was up for promotion and work in Cloud.

~~~
idlewords
I think this is the key question. Is there a "dark matter" of concerned Google
employees who would potentially mobilize if pushed too far, or is this just a
vocal fringe element in a company with a 100,000 strong work force?

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rgoulter
_The Google organizers have taken to calling themselves the “entitled vocal
majority,” after one employee publicly referred to them as the “entitled vocal
minority.”_

I feel like this is a small example of where my views of these employees
disagrees with the author's. (I'm fine with employees having strong opinions
on ethical issues, but this kindof puff quote doesn't lend them respect).

I dunno if the author thinks they're being impartial. Can't complain if they
know (and the reader knows) where their preference lies.

~~~
googthrow2019
The author's bias is obvious. She's not even trying to create an impression of
objectivity. The activists and this article's author are congratulating each
other all over Twitter. Besides, the article contains nuggets like this:

> Meanwhile, there’s not a company in the sector that isn’t grappling at some
> level with the ways bro-gramming culture has made tech a toxic space for
> women and employees of color.

Anyone who uncritically invokes this frame is waging culture war, not
describing it. This article is activist propaganda masquerading as neutral
reporting.

~~~
eli_gottlieb
>The author's bias is obvious. She's not even trying to create an impression
of objectivity. The activists and this article's author are congratulating
each other all over Twitter.

The irony is that actually printing someone taking the appellation "entitled
vocal majority" makes _them_ look bad, not the company.

Disclaimer: I do not work for Google, but I'm pre-inclined to favor the
employees doing more or less whatever they want, but holy hell, what a way for
an activist minority to alienate itself from the base you need to form a union
or cooperative.

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pjc50
> And in an attempt to quell the increase in uncivil interactions on its
> internal platforms, its new “community guidelines” ban slurs and references
> to sex acts in any work document

Rather surprised that people were getting away with that in the first place.

Edit: just realised that, like codes of conduct, the key difference is that
now the rule also applies to the people at the top.

~~~
wswkb
I should be able to put, say, "this method is fucking up that variable" in a
code comment without a puritan telling me not to do so. Which is funny, as it
shows that we're going full circle.

~~~
dictum
Personally, I'd prefer "fucking up" to go away, along with "rape" as a
colorful equivalent of ruining/causing damage to someone or something.

It associates sex with violence and destruction.

A similar thing used to happen with "gay", which kids would use as an
adjective for frustrating or annoying situations.

My preferences notwithstanding, it's still better to be clearer about what's
happening. "Fucking up that variable" says very little about the cause of the
problem, and its possible solution.

~~~
A2017U1
Personally I'd prefer to work in a company where basic elements of the English
language aren't policed with authoritarian fervor and would seek out
alternatives ASAFP.

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lawrenceyan
> at Microsoft, employees say they don’t want to build technology for warfare

Does anyone know what exactly Microsoft is doing with the military? Is this
like better image recognition for drone strikes / targeting humans or more
like providing operating systems for military administration? Because those
could both be technically construed as “building technology for warfare” with
only the first choice being the actually bad type of work.

~~~
rudolfwinestock
Bill Gates & Paul Allen originally founded Microsoft in Albuquerqe, New
Mexico, in order to be reasonably close to Los Alamos because they wanted to
get military contracts.

~~~
wcarss
This may not be a disagreement -- but I was under the impression they moved to
Albuquerque to work at/with MITS[1], the manufacturer of the Altair, and
Microsoft's first customer.

1
-[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Micro_Instrumentation_and_Tele...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Micro_Instrumentation_and_Telemetry_Systems)

~~~
revvx
The answer here confirms what you said:
[http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=500807](http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=500807)

~~~
rudolfwinestock
I stand corrected.

------
dfilppi
Usually you replace them.

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deogeo
> Things got even uglier when Damore sympathizers leaked comments made on the
> message boards by Fong-Jones, a trans woman, and other Google diversity
> advocates to right-wing news sites. [this fortune.com article]

This got me curious, so I tried searching for these leaked comments, while
avoiding far-right news sites. This is what I found:

> Diversity advocates at Google – including the Mountain View tech giant's
> highest-ranking inclusion officer – are being targeted by a small group of
> colleagues in an internal culture war, according to a new report. [...]
> screenshots from Google internal discussion boards have been leaked and
> posted on far-right websites including Breitbart and the blog Vox Popoli,
> which espouses white supremacy. [1]

> 15 current Google employees accuse coworkers of inciting outsiders to harass
> rank-and-file employees who are minority advocates, including queer and
> transgender employees. Since August, screenshots from Google’s internal
> discussion forums, including personal information, have been displayed on
> sites including Breitbart and Vox Popoli, a blog run by alt-right author
> Theodore Beale, who goes by the name Vox Day. [2]

> Their personal information and comments expressed in internal company forums
> have been leaked to the public and published on far-right websites, leading
> to mistreatment by online vigilantes. [..] "We need to see concrete and
> meaningful action," Fong-Jones said. [..] Chuck Johnson, who was kicked off
> Twitter in 2015 after tweeting about wanting to "take out" civil rights
> activist DeRay McKesson [3]

> Their tactics allegedly include “weaponiz[ing] human resources” by goading
> diverse members of Google’s team into making inflammatory statements, and
> reporting those statements as violations of the company’s rules around
> civility. [..] Pro-diversity employees say that their messages on internal
> Google forums have also been photographed and shared outside the company,
> leading to their publication on far-right platforms [4]

A lot of condemnation of the leaks, but I was shocked to find no trace of the
leaked comments themselves - though the people whose comments were leaked are
interviewed and given the chance to present their side. The contrast is
greatest in [3], where the only comment quoted is the two-word "take out" of
the presumably far-right Chuck Johnson.

So we have, broadly speaking, two sides making controversial comments. The
comments of one side aren't published (except by far-right news sites), only
their explanations given to the media. The other side _does_ have their
incriminating comments published (or parts of them), but doesn't get much of a
chance to defend or explain themselves after that.

I'm just glad this one-sided reporting is on the side of truth and the good
guys.

[1] [https://www.thestar.com.my/tech/tech-
news/2018/01/30/googles...](https://www.thestar.com.my/tech/tech-
news/2018/01/30/googles-civil-war-diversity-advocates-threatened-and-harassed-
by-co-workers-new-report-says/)

[2] [https://www.wired.com/story/the-dirty-war-over-diversity-
ins...](https://www.wired.com/story/the-dirty-war-over-diversity-inside-
google/)

[3] [https://eu.usatoday.com/story/tech/2018/01/26/google-
diversi...](https://eu.usatoday.com/story/tech/2018/01/26/google-diversity-
culture-war/1071107001/)

[4] [https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2018/01/google-has-become-
gr...](https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2018/01/google-has-become-ground-zero-
for-the-culture-wars)

~~~
icebraining
"The other side does have their incriminating comments published (or parts of
them)"

Where? I don't see any leaked comments from either side on those links.

~~~
deogeo
Because those links are about the leaked comments of the diversity advocates.
Even so, they _do_ contain a quoted comment (though not leaked) - the right-
wing "take out". An example of the reverse wasn't hard to find:

> "Women, on average, have more openness directed towards feelings and
> aesthetics rather than ideas. Women generally also have a stronger interest
> in people rather than things, relative to men (also interpreted as
> empathizing vs. systemizing)," the screed reads. [1]

[1] [https://www.nbcnews.com/business/business-news/google-
employ...](https://www.nbcnews.com/business/business-news/google-employee-s-
anti-diversity-manifesto-women-s-neuroticism-goes-n790401)

~~~
icebraining
> though not leaked

It's a public tweet, in fact. Easy to find along with the rest of the author's
opinions and explanations.

> An example of the reverse wasn't hard to find:

That quote is from James Damore's memo, and he has been interviewed by many
media organizations, like The Guardian and Business Insider, so I don't see
how you can claim he didn't have a chance to explain himself.

~~~
deogeo
Yes - he could explain himself _after_ getting fired, and the whole incident
blowing up. To treat the sides equally, the news would have had to have been:

Things got even uglier when social justice sympathizers leaked a memo made on
the message boards by James Damore, to left-wing news sites, resulting in his
firing. "We must do more to foster an atmosphere of open debate." Damore says.

------
whatshisface
> _The company says it is trying to manage its ballooning diversity of
> perspectives and projects_

Hopefully they haven't been axing perspectives the way they've been axing
projects!

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atomical
Both Apple and Google support Saudi Arabia by refusing to remove the Absher
app from the app store. Could any current employees shed light on if there is
any internal disagreement on this?

~~~
SamReidHughes
Do you want a central authority dictating what code you can run on your
computer?

~~~
atomical
Is an employer allowed to use code to discriminate against female employees?
No, that's outrageous. Apple and Google should take the high road.

------
onetimemanytime
A day late a a dollar short. Google's biggest crime was what they did to the
web. After using them to promote Google they turned the tables and essentially
started them of clicks, unless they bought ads. Google search is ads, unless
you keep scrolling and scrolling.

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fyoving
I don't understand how someone can proudly be a nuisance to those who sign
their paychecks nor how can an employer tolerate any of it, at the very least
this situation is unfair to the majority of employees who are just "going to
work".

Not sure what's behind Google's inaction here, they really shouldn't be
worried about the trouble makers defecting to somewhere else that most likely
won't tolerate their bullshit.

~~~
pjc50
The whole point of somewhere like Google is that they _don 't_ want people who
will do what they're told, because such people are only capable of doing what
they're told. You can't order someone to innovate unless they have no other
choice.

Silicon Valley has spent years setting itself up as an inheritor of the
counterculture, a place where it's possible to "think different". Employees
are given a share of the business (via a complicated tax shelter of options).
Startups want "contributors", people who buy into the idea that they're
engaged in a positive-sum contribution to the world rather than just bringing
home a paycheck. They provide all sorts of office features to encourage people
to "bring their whole self to work".

(I could go on, but I expect this thread to be buried)

Edit: exhibit A, hollywood social justice warrior proudly being a nuisance,
disrupting law abiding citizens with a hammer:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VtvjbmoDx-I](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VtvjbmoDx-I)
; the "1984" Macintosh commercial and its successor "Think Different"
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cFEarBzelBs](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cFEarBzelBs)
are as close to an official statement of SV founding ideology as you're going
to get)

~~~
fyoving
Tell that to the suits who invented the future at IBM and Bell labs.

Counter cultural types don't have a monopoly on innovation.

~~~
pasabagi
Have you seen a photo of Kernighan & Ritchie? They sure look like
counterculture types to me - or at the very least, that's a lot of hair.

