

Ask HN: Can you get a "good" job in the industry without a degree? - randomchars

I'm at a point in my life where I have to decide what to do next.<p>I'm finishing high school (after some detours; I'm 21) this year and starting a software engineering degree this fall.
The problem is that I don't want to. I live in Hungary and I'd like to leave this place.
So I've started thinking thinking that maybe I could spend the next 4-6 moths learning and building things in hopes that I could get a job someplace else. But most job listings specifically list a degree or equivalent work experience as a requirement.<p>I've never worked in the field, not even as a freelancer and I only started programming a few months ago. I haven't written anything big either.  ( https://github.com/randomchars )<p>Do you have any suggestion or input on this issue?
======
darkxanthos
I have no degree, here's what's worked for me:

1\. Looks through a job listings site and copy and paste every interesting job
into a text file.

2\. Look for the commonalities and also the things you don't know yet.

3\. Without lying, tailor your résumé to address the key commonalities you've
found.

4\. Apply to any and every job that you think you could do.

5\. Create a mini-action plan for how you'll learn what you need to and put it
into practice in order to address the skill and experience gaps you've
identified.

I've found that when moving into a new industry three-six months of practice
and examples are all you really need to get your foot in the door at least at
an entry level.

Look for any and every way to use your current job as a place to showcase what
you're capable of. Don't worry about getting paid more for it because you're
investing in yourself and I guarantee it will pay off.

I got my first bit of programming experience working as customer service for
AT&T Wireless. I learned web development, made them a couple of tools, got an
award and then was able to find my first small time web development job.

edit: formatting

~~~
randomchars
That's a great plan, thank you!

The only thing is I haven't really seen entry level jobs anywhere. I looked on
Github's and Stack Overflow's job boards, is there somewhere else I should be
looking too?

~~~
darkxanthos
You're right businesses don't call it "Jr. dev" often. Instead apply for
normal dev positions that ask for a 4 year degree. Many employers will offer
you a position for less money knowing you'll be more junior simply because
they like you and you've proven you can get things done. Also if you're going
the non-degree route and somehow getting experience employers will assume you
have a fair amount of ambition and are a self-starter.

Also, do not worry about money for your first real dev job. Just get one. Look
to move jobs in 6-12 months and you'll get the money you want.

Good luck!

------
Marius
You should come to Scotland. Edinburgh has 3 Universities (
<http://www.ucas.ac.uk/students/coursesearch/2013searcheu/> ) and because you
are an EU citizen you are entitled to free tuition from
<http://www.saas.gov.uk> . You should be able to transfer to a Scottish
University after you finish your 1st year in Hungary.

You can consider the university course as being your backup plan. Edinburgh
(and Glasgow/Dundee/Aberdeen) has a great tech community. Between university
and meeting people from the tech community you'll have plenty of things to do.

Being a CS student would open a lot more doors than not having a degree. I
help organise a monthly tech meeting called Techmeetup (
<http://techmeetup.co.uk> ) and we get a lot of people who are looking to find
(paid) interns/hire full time employees/find co-founders.

~~~
randomchars
I actuality considered Scotland but by then the UCAS deadline passed so I
forgot about it. Transferring is a ptetty great idea, I will definitely look
into it.

~~~
Marius
I transferred after studying for 3 years in Romania.

I went in person to each university's international student office ( or
whatever that's called ) and told them I'd like to transfer.

Edinburgh Uni was like "We can't do that because bla bla bla" but Heriot Watt
and Napier only wanted my transcripts from my university in Romania.

Ended up going for an undergraduate MEng in Software Engineering at Heriot
Watt.

The transfer process was a piece of cake.

Just to give you an idea of the timeline:

-June 2007 came to Edinburgh

-July 2007 visited the student office of all 3 universities

-August 2007 sent Heriot Watt my transcripts and was offered a place

-October 2007 started the MEng course.

If this doesn't make you want to give it a shot I don't know what will.

Edit: And did I mention that I didn't have to pay University fees? Free
education FTW :)

------
salahxanadu
I think the experience of a college or university degree is well worth the
time and money. You may meet others that have your same interests. You may be
exposed to concepts and ideas that you have no concept of now. It might happen
because of a required class or it might happen because of a relationship with
a mentor or a professor.

You have the rest of your life to work. Be a monk and study for a few years
and come out the better. Having accomplished 'a degree' is a big deal. It's a
lot of bureaucracy and busy-work, but that shows that you have not only skill,
but perseverance.

Also other mentioned coming to the US. Why? I can't see why. I'd go to Berlin
or Vienna or some other place in the EU.

~~~
randomchars
I would love to go to college. The problem is that there are no great schools
in Hungary. The schools and the government are both proud that they're
preparing the students for the job market. That's it. There's also nothing
that would make me want to stay here. This is why the whole idea came up.

There isn't a specific place I want to go to. It's easy to work in another EU
country so those are on the top of my imaginary list, but I wouldn't have any
problem with the US, or Canada either. Is there a reason why you don't like
the idea of moving there?

------
nirvanatikku
I'd say Yes, you can certainly get a _good_ job.

That said, I'm not sure if you've thought about the states, but just throwing
this out there: I've been in the US for 8 years now (came here for college,
been working since) and without my degree, I believe my chances of being here
would have been reduced to almost none (I realize this every time I engage in
any visa-related matter).

There _are_ other ways you can get here (internal transfer, investor visa
etc), but I think it's worth mentioning since you said that you'd like to
leave Hungary. I briefly contemplated dropping out of college but looking back
there's no doubt in my mind it was one of the most important and best
decisions of my life to stick it out.

~~~
randomchars
I haven't really consider the US because without significant experience my
chances of getting a job there would be much lower than in the EU, even
without the visa bureaucracy.

------
faet
Create a website/portfolio. If you can show 4 years of work/projects that will
do you better than 4 years of school. I see you've got a github, that's good,
expand on it. You don't need big projects, small ones work as well. Comment
and format your code well. This is what people will see.

Look at what skills people in your area need. There are _zero_ python jobs in
my area. I _love_ python, but it isn't marketable. It's either PHP or C#/.Net.
So for my current job I did some C# projects while unemployed to show with my
resume.

Your first job will probably suck. This is true of a lot of college grads as
well. Don't be discouraged.

~~~
randomchars
It's very similar where I live: PHP, Java, C++ and .NET. That's exactly why I
don't want to study here. The universities here prepare for the current job
market instead of teaching solid CS foundations.

------
CWIZO
The fact that you don't have a degree shouldn't be a problem (even if it's
listed as a requirement). At least I hadn't any problems (living in Slovenia,
moving to London).

However, if you don't know how to do stuff then you'll just have to work on
that and start learning shit. Maybe you could get a junior level job
somewhere, but that really depends on where you are at as a programmer.

I don't know what the situation with schools is in Hungary, but if it's
anything like here, I would strongly suggest to forget about college and start
learning on your own.

~~~
randomchars
Thanks for your comment!

I'm continously learning, and I still have 4 months from this school year.

Can I ask how much experience did you have before getting to a job in London
and what kind of position is it?

~~~
CWIZO
I've been a developer for over 10 years now. The position is software
engineer.

------
jstelly
In my opinion a degree is not necessary to get a good job or to succeed in the
software industry. However a degree does make some other things easier and
there are a few things to consider: Immigration is one that others have
mentioned. Here in the US it can be fairly difficult (not impossible though)
to hire a programmer from outside of the country if they do not have any
academic credentials. You can certainly build a portfolio of released software
that can generate as many or more opportunities than a degree, but it is
easier to understand exactly how to accomplish a university degree and how
much effort it will take. It might be harder than you think to build a great
portfolio. The signaling value of a degree is fairly well understood. You are
communicating your intelligence and some measure of what kinds of things you
can accomplish in a very easy to understand way by getting a degree. But
honestly, from my point of view if you release a bunch of software, find
users, and make them happy you will be far ahead of anyone who only has a
degree (in terms of being interesting to recruit). I think lots of people
think a degree will solve this for them, but education is just a start. Also,
it's worth mentioning that I quite enjoyed getting my degree. It sounds like
you aren't excited about it, but going to college is a really fun set of
experiences for many people. After having done it, I think it was worth doing
just for those experiences.

------
citizenkeys
Look at this website: <http://www.careercup.com/>

~~~
randomchars
So I should be learning the kind of things that come up in interviews?

~~~
Jeremy1026
Yes. You should be familiar with the concepts. If you can't put together an
answer to any of the interview questions then you will not get an offer.

