
Tesla Model 3 Cost of Ownership Slightly Cheaper Than a Camry - arbie
https://loupventures.com/tesla-model-3-cost-of-ownership-slightly-cheaper-than-a-camry/
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mlyle
Seems to be predicated upon a number of questionable assumptions-- including
that

\- a Model 3 is cheaper to insure than a Camry (thus far, the opposite is
true-- and it seems optimistic to attain for a car that costs so much more,
has higher performance, and higher repair costs)

\- the Model 3 will be cheaper to maintain by a massive factor (we'll see;
there is maintenance avoided by having an electric car but also Tesla's part
costs and availability has been poor)

\- resale value will hold up exceptionally well for the Tesla

Basically, the most optimistic values have been taken for the Tesla in every
field and the most pessimistic values have been taken for the Camry, and the
Tesla manages a slight win.

~~~
stocker
And the cost of financing, which is highly variable based on the individuals
credit worthiness.

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crispyporkbites
If you’re financing a new car and worried about the cost of ownership, you
should probably think about the reducing the biggest cost with a new car on
finance.

I.E don’t buy it using money borrowed from someone else.

~~~
stocker
That depends on the interest rate, I usually qualify for near zero rates, my
last loan was something like 0.9%. When an index fund can return more than 5%
in recent years it makes more sense to finance the car and leave the cash in
the market. I can't think of a situation where the cost of ownership isn't
considered, you should always consider what it costs to own any object. Even
the ultra-rich will shy away from vehicles due to running costs, re: Bugatti
tire change cost.

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robocat
Which Car Models Have the Lowest Maintenance Cost?

Based on total car maintenance costs over 10 years: Rank:Make_Model@Cost
Cheapest:Toyota_Prius@$4,300 2nd_cheapest:Kia_Soul@$4,700
3rd_cheapest:Toyota_Camry@$5,200

They think a Camry costs $4000 over 5 years to maintain, whereas Your Mechanic
thinks it is $5200 over 10 years - something smells. Fix that, and the
advantage goes away.

I think it is very unlikely the Model 3 costs less to maintain than a Camry
over 10 years (projected). Toyota are insanely much better than any other
manufacturer - I am sceptical a new manufacturer with a new model can
jumpstart reliability figures like that. Are they including expected battery
replacement costs?

[https://www.yourmechanic.com/article/the-most-and-least-
expe...](https://www.yourmechanic.com/article/the-most-and-least-expensive-
cars-to-maintain-by-maddy-martin)

~~~
m463
I think the model 3 batteries are good for a huge number of lifetime miles,
like 500k

For comparison I once rode in a prius with 400k miles, and it had had the
engine replaced multiple times.

~~~
robocat
> For comparison I once rode in a prius with 400k miles, and it had had the
> engine replaced multiple times.

That's odd, and definitely not normal.

Firstly, the Prius was the least expensive model maintenance-wise in the link
above.

Secondly, I have heard from multiple people that the Prius engine just keeps
running because it doesn't get the same loads as a normal car (makes sense).

Finally, taxi drivers drive reliable vehicles that are cheap to maintain, and
the Prius is the car of choice for taxi drivers where I am (and here that's
categorically not a side-effect of other financial incentives).

~~~
m463
This was a taxi.

I think he also said they didn't like the newer prius versions, I thought
because they didn't have as much room in them.

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calewis
I am a new model 3 owner in the UK and the insurance is astronomical. Despite
having a license for more than 9 years (usually the maximum for UK insurers),
having no convictions, it being stored on a driveway with CCTV my quote was
£2,600 p.a. I do live in London and haven't owned a car for a few years so(no
claims discount not being applicable). While I was expecting an expensive
premium, I wasn’t expecting something so outrageous! For context I owned a
sporty car when I was 19 and had just passed my test my insurance was
£1200p.a. I consider myself, and the car, considerably safer and this expected
something around this mark. I am hoping next year I will see a significant
drop in price. I wonder how ‘real word’ their calculations where?

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cs02rm0
I've just had a look at quotes where I am (a couple of hours away from London)
and got £900/year. That's quite a lot (I think for a Ford Focus and a Volvo
V70 I pay about £200 each) but you're really getting screwed!

I wonder how much is just the sheer value of the car rather than insurers
considering them to be particularly risky?

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CalRobert
Strangely, I found that insurance on cars over ten years old gets really
expensive, to the point where the car is effectively uninsurable. I don't know
why - but it was surprising, coming from a place where I insured a '95 Mazda
for about $35 a month

~~~
nradov
There's no point in paying for comprehensive insurance on a car that old. You
only need liability.

~~~
CalRobert
The values I quoted are for third party insurance (akin to liability in the
US)

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Yaggo
I came to same conclusion as an European (Finn).

As my Prius is approaching ten years age, I'm going to retire it and get new
primary car. I calculated that new Corolla Hybrid with best trim + gas for 5
years will cost roughly the same as SR+ with electricity (inc. 2 KEUR rebate).

Btw, currently I pay 300 EUR per month for gas (~1.5 per litre), while SR+
monthly loan payment starts from 450 EUR (with 5 KEUR down payment).
Electricity is relatively cheap (and green!) in Finland, also insurancing a
Tesla has no premium. It starts to look like a bargain!

We drive a lot, almost 50,000 km per year. Of course there are lot variables,
but I'm pretty sure that gas and ICE car taxation won't get any cheaper. Not
to forget that SR+ is definitely more fun daily driver.

~~~
walrus01
To what extent do you have variable kWh rates based on time of day in Finland?
Assuming nearly full implementation of smart metering. One of the interesting
features of a Tesla is that if you use it for daily commuting, the car can be
set to charge overnight between 10pm and 5am, during the hours of lowest kWh
rates.

~~~
serpix
Actual price of electricity is negligible, around 4-6 cent/kWh. There is
really very little wiggle room here. The rest is tax and electricity transfer.

You can choose to buy your electricity from anyone but you have to pay the
local monopoly for the transfer. Electric transfer/infrastructure has been
sold abroad by our very forward thinking smart politicians and thus that money
is never seen again.

Both cost double that of electricity or more. So the total is around
13-17c/kWh. Smart metering saves only a few cents per kWh. These two rates
have been going up really fast and will lead to a solar/wind revolution in
short order.

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Yaggo
> Actual price of electricity is negligible, around 4-6 cent/kWh. There is
> really very little wiggle room here.

That's the average energy price, and what typically pay if you have fixed
pricing per kWh, but there is lot of variance hourly/seasonally. Sometimes in
the night time the price of energy can be almost nothing (e.g. hydro power
reverses overfilling), but of course you still have to pay for grid company +
taxes. To take advantage of that, you need a "market price" plan with your
energy company. E.g. I try to store the cheap night-time energy into water
boiler + floor heating.

An electric car is very good match for cheap nigh-time energy, as you
typically charge overnight.

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aetherspawn
The resale value for the Camry is bogus. I paid about $10k for a less nice
Camry as the one mentioned in the article that was 7 years old with 130K kms.
For a 5 year old LE with low kms I’d expect $13-17k resale.

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mywittyname
There's a huge spread between trade-in value and prices on a dealership lot.
It's completely reasonable to expect to get $8-10k in trade-in for a five year
old Camry, and totally reasonable to expect to pay $15k to buy that same car
from the dealership.

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astura
Lol... Nobody spends $4k on maintenance over the first five years of a brand
new Camry's life.

Id like to see how a Model 3 is cheaper to insure as well... seems
questionable at best. I'd have to get quotes to disprove it though.

In fact, right now I have an econocar that's almost 10 years old and I'm
certain I've spent less than $4k in maintenance over that decade. I've gotten
new tires twice (~$1,300), new battery (~300), brakes (~$400), oil changes
(~$300), turn signal bulbs (~$10) and that's really all I can remember.

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exabrial
Not mentioned: cost of repairs. The running joke with Tesla's seems to be
you're not a real owner until it's been on a diesel truck.

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thorwasdfasdf
The Gas/Electricity cost comparison are off.

CA electric rates average 15.34c/KwH Tesla gets 27 KwH per 100 miles which
comes out to 4.14$ per 100 miles for the Tesla A Camry at 50mpg uses 2 gallons
costing 7$ per 100 miles.

So, on a per elec/gas basic the comparison should be: 2250 vs 3804

And, if you live in the bay area, then your electric rates can easily be 18,
or 19c/KwH nearly putting the TM3 on par with the camry.

Also, as other pointed out: in the long term, the camry will cost much much
less on maintenance than a TM3. if those TM3 door handles go out, that's 1500$
each just for that.

a year or two ago KBHD said nearly every Youtuber who's ever reviewed a Tesla
(with the exception of 2), has at some point had their Tesla's up on a flatbed
truck.

I don't know if they've improved the reliability since then but I think Tesla
still has a lot to prove in this category, especially considering how
expensive they are to repair.

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sliken
I've heard this, but it refers to the model S (which KBHD has). The model S is
VERY complicated, there's like 20 computers sprinkled around, I think there's
even one in the doors. The parts are sourced from numerous manufacturers and
were not designed together. There's multiple control networks, etc.

The model 3 was designed with much closer to a clean start over from what
Telsa learned. Radically less parts, radically less cables (I think it's 10x
less), and things that should be centralized (like the computers) are. In fact
they have won some awards, look up the Tesla "superbottle".

I've talked to a many model 3 owners, am active on various Tesla forums, and
there's a pretty lively slack channel where I work. Things do seem MUCH better
with the 3 than the S, at least older S. It does seem like Tesla is updating
the model S over time, but it's maddeningly hard to track exactly what those
changes are.

In any case don't hold the S against the 3, it does seem like they improved
quite a few things with it. Time will tell if they do similar with the Y, they
at one point claimed they could do another 10x reduction in cabling.

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mbruce
I wonder what it would like compared to a Camry hybrid. While, as EVs come
down in price it is likely hybrids will disappear, on this comparison it could
be cheaper. Not as much fun as the Tesla mind you - which is worth something
to many.

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free652
How are the repairs for a Tesla Model 3 cheaper than for a Camry.

$60 oil change x 20 = $1200. Everything else is the same or pricier for a
Tesla.

~~~
lnsru
I think you forgot fuel filter, air filter, spark plugs and couple of belts.

~~~
ed_balls
Oil in a diff (AWD car), oil in gearbox, oil filter. Break pads and discs (EV
use regen breaking so the wear difference is significant).

In 5 years you may need to replace clutch etc.

No sure if EV needs any coolant replacements.

~~~
lamchob
How would you drive in order to renew a clutch after 5 years? Usually a clutch
lasts well beyond 10 years. Costs for break pads and and discs are also very
low, unless you have ceramic break.

~~~
mrguyorama
Speaking as a brand new manual transmission driver: Learning

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woodandsteel
There's a lot of arguing here about the true cost of a Model 3. But the larger
question is trends. The only reason electrics have a higher sticker prices
today is the huge cost of the battery pack. But cell prices are dropping
rapidly. They went down 35% in the last year alone.

The experts say this is going to continue, and in another 2 or 3 years ev's
will equal ice's in sticker price, and then continue to fall. That plus
various other factors will lead to ev sales skyrocketing and ice sales
plummeting. A lot of the ice manufacturers like VW and GM have realized this
is coming, and so they are working hard to convert over to ev's.

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eigenloss
The savings from 1-3 years of depreciation on a comparable Camry makes this a
complete non-debate. I love Tesla(s) as much as anyone else, but their cars
are still luxury goods.

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ebg13
So this compares a new model 3 to a new Camry. But on the principle that most
people buy their cars used, I'd be more interested in a breakdown of the
ownership cost of buying 1-5 year old vehicles. The purchase price on ICE
vehicles goes way down in the first year. Does the same hold for EVs?

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alexandros
Critically, this doesn't take into account that the model 3 has the lowest
probability of injury [1] of any car ever tested by the NHTSA. Driving a car
with a higher probability of injury means you must calculate the cost of a
fractional injury and what this might cost you and your passengers in lost
time and/or quality of life, nevermind the case where the injury is fatal.

[1]: [https://insideevs.com/news/356489/tesla-
model-3-safety/](https://insideevs.com/news/356489/tesla-model-3-safety/)

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prepend
How would you best factor that into maintenance costs?

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panpanna
Possibly dumb questions:

1\. How long would the batteries last on the Tesla?

2\. Do they need to be serviced more often if you live in colder climates?

3\. Wouldn't battery health affect resale value??

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jtbayly
Batteries are damaged by heat, not cold. It's just that the damage is revealed
in cold weather.

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panpanna
Thanks, TIL.

So given all this, how long do the original batteries last in California
heart?

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ehvatum
Teslas have active battery temperature management, even when parked in "deep
sleep" mode, and very robust heating and cooling capacity. Left on a hot
Arizona parking lot, our Model S will occasionally run the AC for the battery.
This is a huge improvement over our Leaf, which lost 30% of its battery
capacity during a single summer of being parked on Scottsdale blacktop.

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bigkm
These cars aren't even remotely comparable when you look at performance.

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ryanmercer
Brand new perhaps, that Camry is going to hold resale value given it is a
Toyota and should run a couple of few hundred thousand miles with routine
maintenance, those batteries going to last 200-300k miles in the Tesla?

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tzury
$0.03 per mile and roughly $260 per year.

I was assuming Tesla saves more.

