
Don't be rich, Live rich - BioGeek
http://www.slideshare.net/nomadznu/nomadznu4
======
motters
It sounds nice if you can pull it off, but on the occasions where I've been
continually moving from place to place I've found it much harder to actually
get anything done. Continual travel adds cognitive and other entropic
overheads which deplete your mental and energy real estate.

~~~
mike_esspe
Yes, i have the same problem. Many times i thought, that i will build
something while traveling, but that never happened :)

Though as far as i understood, they solved this with going out as tourists
only on weekends.

~~~
jurjenh
I have this exact problem even without the travel... A couple of days at home
without continuous jobs / tasks needing to get done. Great, I can finally get
onto doing some work for project X!

Except it never happens. Seems my motivation / drive is so depleted that the
best way to use the days off is to actually rest. Then I feel great (although
generally a little miffed that I didn't get anything done on project X) and
for the next several weeks I seem to have more focus and be able to get my
everyday things done more effectively.

Sometimes the best way to utilise a break is exactly that - have a (complete)
break and just rest the mind - I find some physical exercise (surfing) helpful
with that too.

~~~
hetaoblog
agree to some extent, spending time at home for long days will reduce
productivity for me...

------
maccman
I've been doing the same for 9 months now. I've travelled round the whole
world, had a fantastic time, and wrote a book for O'Reilly as I went. It's
been the best year of my life. In fact, it turns out that writing books is one
of the best ways to do this - as it's very flexible and a successful book will
just about cover traveling costs. What most people don't realize, is how cheap
it is to do this.

As always though, everything is best in moderation. I'm yearning to be back in
the startup/technology scene - and I will be come September. I'm sure that'll
I'll do another trip like this in my twenties though (I'm 21 now).

~~~
Periodic
One thing I'm certain of is that my expenses for a trip like this when I was
21 would have been much lower than for a trip like this now.

I've sadly grown accustomed to fancier meals (restaurants over ramen) and
softer beds (hotels over hostels). It would be a lot of mental work to keep my
expectations down and readjust them to what they were in my student days.

It would be a very good exercise though.

~~~
maccman
Yes, hostels through most countries, but hotels in Asia. I live pretty
cheaply, but I've actually eaten out every night of the trip. I love the
minimalistic lifestyle, having 100 things and living out my bag - I hope I
never lose that.

------
stevenp
At the beginning of June I went to Chris Guillebeau's first World Domination
Summit in Portland, OR (<http://worlddominationsummit.com/>) and met lots of
people who are living like this. I highly recommend going next year (I'm
already registered!) if you're interested in learning about the techniques
people use for lifestyle design.

------
econgeeker
We've been doing this for three years now. This couple seemed to focus on
having a year abroad, we've made it our lifestyle, and we're doing a startup
(rather than consulting).

I started this as a response to the "how to keep productive" question, but
I'll try to address the other questions people have been asking in the thread
later on.

We also have the issue of taking some period of time to get back into the
productive zone. What we do is spend the visa limit time in each country. For
americans in the UK that is 6 months, for instance. So we rented an apartment
for 6 months. In the Shengen zone (most of europe) it is 3 months, and last
year we spent 2.5 months in berlin.

In both cases we spent most of the time working a normal lifestyle %90 of the
time. After our 2.5 months in berlin we spent a couple weeks traveling as
tourists (that's where the other 0.5 months went.)

I figure 2 weeks on either side of a relocation are not going to be
productive, so might as well spend half of that time, or so, doing tourist
stuff. By having such great breaks regularly, we are recharged and I think
more productive when we are working.

The weird thing is, indoors, the only thing foreign really is the outlets...
so it feels like we're still in the USA, but then you step outdoors and the
language, accents and architecture are completely different. So you can
"travel" across the globe every day. It is really hard to explain that feeling
but it is pretty powerful.

\-- Taxes & Visas-- As far as governments are concerned we're tourists. We
present ourselves this way and we get tourist visas. However, for most visas
"tourist" and "business" visas are essentially the same. We don't work in any
country in the sense that we don't have a job, we don't participate in their
employment schemes. We're taxed like americans (the US taxes your income no
matter where it is earned).

\-- As I mentioned we're doing a startup. (We did one and we're just in the
process of pivoting so what the new one is at this point is a little vague.) I
don't feel out of the technology scene at all-- I have all the same
connections I did before we left, except that I can't go to local
unconferneces, but I didn't really get much out of them.

There is one conference that I miss that is done in the USA only, but we
started buying the videos for it. Spending hundreds of dollars on conference
videos sounds expensive, but it is cheap compared to actually going there
(Even from within the USA). I don't really miss the networking opportunities--
and we're now networking with a real international network. EG: we network
with the locals wherever we are.

The technology scene really is global.

\-- Budget:

This is a big one. This inhibits a lot of people. However, if you've got an
income from your work, and savings to get by in the USA, you can get buy
longer when you're traveling. Even traveling in expensive first world places
like europe, right now, we're able to live on the budget we were living on in
the USA. Overall, we're actually spending a bit less, and we spend a lot less
when we are living in lower cost places (even places in eastern europe, which
are "expensive" compared to southeast asia, are cheep.)

So, we could have remained in the USA, and spent the same amount of money. I
don't think we would have gotten any more work done, and we would have had a
lot less fun. Plus, as our product is global, better understanding of other
countries helps.

\--

Health insurance: We have the health insurance we had in the USA. It covers us
globally. There are specific health insurance plans that cover long term
travelers and we might switch, we just haven't done so yet.

Neither of us are under 30, nor are we over 50.

\--

Crazy? You hear a lot of people who knock this idea. Lots of people say "I'd
love to do that but I've got responsibilities" or the equivalent.

That's fine... just don't presume we're not doing serious work, we aren't
doing a "real" startup or anything lie that. These days startups often have
employees spread around the globe... we don't have to carry the whole company
with us.

I think people thinks this is harder than it is. Or maybe for some people the
idea of living out of a backpack is tough.

Personally, I relish the challenge!

Between my laptop, camera, and assorted stuff, I've got about 7 pounds of
clothes etc, and 10 pounds of electronics gear. Every time we-repack, we
actually shed some unnecessary stuff. It is a process... but I love it.

~~~
illumin8
It sounds like a lot of fun, but how do you save for your retirement? If you
spent 10 years doing this, wouldn't you be too far behind to catch up and end
up living a poor lifestyle when you should be traveling and enjoying your
later years?

~~~
Joeri
I always hear people talk about all the things they'll do after they retire,
but somehow I never see them actually do it. Sometimes you just need to do
things instead of putting them off to some uncertain future.

~~~
econgeeker
I never wanted to retire at 60, I wanted to retire young. I picked a date in
the 1990s by which I wanted to travel full time.

We missed the date by a year-- exactly the year it took us to get ready for
this.

Takes a lot of time to get rid of a couple decades of accumulated junk. That's
one of the bigger inhibitions. We didn't put anything but a couple small boxes
in storage with friends, we got rid of everything.

Sort of our "burning the ships" moment, but also, the thing is, it was mostly
unnecessary.

Like in fight club - we thought we had the sofa thing covered. Forget that.
There will be more sofas in the future.

------
ilamont
Living abroad in your 20s is an unforgettable experience. I lived in Europe
and Asia for most of the 1990s, and still look back wistfully at that time of
my life. I gave up some early career "juice" but got so much more out of it.

Note that doing what the OP did is far more difficult if you have children,
although it is possible to work stable jobs in a single country for longer
stints with kids.

~~~
josephcooney
'more difficult if you have children' seems like a huge understatement.
Especially if they're school-aged.

~~~
ShirtlessRod
Massive, massive understatement. Not to mention if your children happen to
have other issues, such as developmental disabilities, severe food allergies,
or other things that make "normal" day-to-day living difficult, without adding
the extra stressors related to travel and living abroad on top of that.

It is absolutely no coincidence that the vast majority of people who do these
sorts of things have no children. This is not to say that I don't think it's
commendable to get out in the world like this, because if you can it's a great
thing. However, I get annoyed with folks who seem to think there couldn't be
any possible reason that someone wouldn't do the same.

------
skarayan
Moral of the story: structure your life around things you love. Travel is
cool, but not for me long term. I love internet startups and getting better
with every new idea/execution. Soon, I will be able to stop consulting and get
my cash flow from a self sustained business. In the mean time, I consult to
fund me ideas. Life is good.

------
rafski
Not trying to take away from how fantastic and inspiring a story this is,
what's with the "check for grants/subsidizing" bit?

Is the ultimate advice "be from a wealthy country that lets you travel on
welfare"? :)

~~~
mistermann
Or even better,come to Canada and claim refugee status when you arrive, you
get social assistance payments and free dental and health care while you are
processed through the queue to determine if you are legitimate, takes about a
year. Apparently its quite a popular vacation option for people from Mexico,
there is even a "how to" guide online.

~~~
illumin8
No thanks. Abusing government resources that are intended for real refugees
that have had to flee war zones and oppressive governments is not only
unethical and rude, it could also land you in jail for welfare fraud.

------
rdouble
This looks like fun, but so many people have done this now, it's almost a
cliche.

It almost seems more unique to hear about a hacker from NYC documenting a
summer working in New Paltz, rather than another story about social media
experts working from cafes in Buenos Aires and Thailand.

~~~
kristofferR
True, but that doesn't make it a lesser experience for those who are doing it.
I doubt many lifestyle designers do it because "it's the cool thing", they're
doing it because it can be an amazing adventure and experience. It's only
natural to want to talk about the great experiences you've had.

------
wallflower
For inspiration, check out Worldhum and Brave New Traveler:

<http://bravenewtraveler.com>

<http://worldhum.com>

------
irahul
> Don't be rich, Live rich.

Why not be rich and live rich. I get the "Live rich" part but that "Don't be
rich" is unwarranted.

~~~
jbrains
I think you're overanalysing a phrase written by people whose first language
is not English. :) I interpret it as "Don't kill yourself to make money if you
can live /like/ you already have it."

------
kristofferR
BTW, my favorite podcast is The Lifestyle Business Podcast:
<http://www.lifestylebusinesspodcast.com/>

The hosts are two guys who have created a million dollar business in the last
three years while traveling. Their business is not some bullshit "blog"/earn
money by selling tips on how to make money thing, it's a real business that
actually sells physical products.

Everybody should check it out. It's a shame that they're charging for the
first episodes since it makes it kinda hard to recommend to people (I
discovered them before that), but their content is definitely worth paying
for. It's probably the best audio-only business content I've heard.

~~~
danspodcast
Thanks for the shout! :D

------
jonmaim
A very useful site to help you find a good city/country is numbeo.com. There
you can make cost-of-living comparison between 2 cities.

For example, look at the difference between Lausanne, Switzerland and
Bangalore, India (the indian silicon valley!) -> bit.ly/ltwXUf

~~~
bravura
I find the Cost of Living Index on the bottom of that site to be suspect. If
NYC is 100, Berlin is 91.71? I simply don't trust that. I lived in New York
for years, and have spent several weeks in Berlin.

Berlin is _far_ cheaper than NYC. It is considered one of the cheapest big
cities in Europe. And numbeo says that it is only 10% cheaper than NYC:
<http://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/cpi_explained.jsp>

I find that the estimate on Expatistan seem much more reasonable:
[http://www.expatistan.com/cost-of-
living/comparison/berlin/n...](http://www.expatistan.com/cost-of-
living/comparison/berlin/new-york-city)

Expatistan: NYC is 43% more expensive than Berlin

Perhaps this is because Expatistan provides more emphasis on the entertainment
category?

p.s. Please don't use shortened links on HN.

~~~
jonmaim
expatisan is very nice for big cities, but as soon as you look for smaller
city no data is available.

------
bignoggins
My wife and I are currently doing something similar. Traveling the world (4
continents, 20+ countries). She's working on photography and blogging while
I'm developing my own iphone apps. Best decision we've ever made, and haven't
looked back since (been on the road for 3 months, currently at an airbnb in
Taiwan). My wife keeps a blog at <http://www.shenventure.com> if you're
interested in reading about how we did it.

------
jonmaim
Currently doing it in Bangalore, India! Anymore people/couples doing the same
right now?

~~~
peng
Currently doing this in Chiang Mai, Thailand. Off to Croatia next!

~~~
hvass
Peng, can you talk about the visas/taxes part? Thanks.

~~~
Luyt
I don't think traveling workers do anything special with visas - if any visa
is needed, they just use a tourist visa. For all business purposes, it looks
like they never left their home country; billing is done as if it came from
their home business address.

I once spent a few months in Spain, where I devoted 30% of my time to
developing a C++ application, 30% of my time to learning Spanish, and 30% on
touristy things. This was before the Internet era, and I sent in my work each
month on a floppy disk, along with an invoice (just as I did from home). I
think they never noticed the Spanish post stamps ;-)

------
TA662
This is just how I'm hoping to spend most of my 20s.

I did freelance for a while, and I came to the conclusion that I don't really
enjoy doing client work, so now I'm working on a startup instead.

Does anybody have experience doing a startup on the road, as opposed to the
more common freelancing/blogging/consulting?

My aim is to get my SaaS product(s) to the point of requiring almost zero
work. (Everything automated, effective 'help' section to keep the amount
support emails as low as possible, etc.)

This seems impossible with freelancing/blogging/consulting, as you'll only be
able to lessen the workload so much (i.e. it can't be self-sustaining),
whereas depending on the startup you can theoretically get by on just a few
hours work per week, while your revenues are still increasing.

~~~
jen_h
Voxilate/HeyTell was built on the road; inside the US, though, as we've a
pretty important server component and we've learned that if we are both
offline, bad things happen.

I.e., if we have to fly somewhere, we don't fly together. Phones on multiple
networks capable of tethering, a wireless broadband card and a router that'll
use it are a must-have (our Cradlepoint's been a champ...the Mifi's cool, but
the ability to plug a card or Ethernet or both into the CP rocks).

We've had a blast and we're still going gangbusters after almost two years on
the road - so it's totally doable.

My advice would be not to be too disappointed if your zero-work aim is never
achieved (maybe you could get away with this if you didn't have users or a
server component...hah!); we pretty much work around the clock, but we love
it.

We have an old blog post from our first month mobile about reducing burn rates
while doing this sort of thing if you're interested -
[http://voxilate.blogspot.com/2010/01/reduce-your-micro-
start...](http://voxilate.blogspot.com/2010/01/reduce-your-micro-startup-burn-
rateand.html) \- it could stand some updating, but still pretty much applies
(plus, the user comment was spot-on).

------
ori_b
How does this work with respect to visas and the like? I don't imagine that
countries like you coming in to work and earn money without paying any taxes.

~~~
ahoyhere
Most of those laws apply to people who are earning money locally. All around
the world, it's a huge grey area when the work you are doing as a visitor is
not local -- such as working for a client back in the US.

Since in all my travels, I've never found a country with a clear explanation
of what is & isn't allowed wrt remote work, I think of it like this: If you
are on a trip and somebody from home calls you to ask you to make a decision
on an investment, would that country tax you? No. If your investments back
home made lots of money while you were on vacation, would that country tax
you? No. What if you wrote emails telling other people what to do? What if you
did a little bit of it for them? Etc. The thought experiment goes on.

------
sjmulder
What’s the best way to go about finding places to live for a short time that
don’t cost an arm, leg and rib?

~~~
jen_h
We've been doing this for going on two years now. Off-season--even just by a
few weeks--rocks for better pricing. We've gotten a bunch of beautiful places
very inexpensively off-season, after school starts, for example...this is in
the US; for what we do, we need consistent & reliable Internet access, plus
we're traveling with our pet.

VRBO & HomeAway have been pretty solid senders, we've tried a bunch of other
options, but I don't think we've ever managed to book via any other site
(except for one rental straight through the condo complex in an area not well-
served by HomeAway/VRBO). Searching VRBO is a pain in the neck, but the owners
tend to be a lot more experienced.

~~~
Harkins
Funny, the only time I've had luck with VRBO/HomeAway is peak season, grabbing
last-minute deals on things that would otherwise stand empty. :)

~~~
jen_h
Yeah, had luck there, too. A couple of times the same day we emailed!

But _there's_ a startup idea--someone should get on it if they haven't
already--"Priceline for VRBO/HomeAway/AirBnB."

------
jbrains
The most fun part of this lifestyle is being able to say "I'd like to go to
Paris again this year", then finding work close enough to Paris to pay for
going to Paris. By not needing to squeeze every dollar out of my trips, I can
be much more flexible and enjoy the travel more.

------
robertduncan
How does immigration law work for this kind of trip? Do you need a work
permit/visa?

~~~
rflrob
And where do you need to file taxes?

~~~
Harkins
If you are an American citizen, you always have to file taxes on wages, no
matter where you earn them or who you work for (even if you steal things, you
pay taxes on them).

~~~
rafski
This is distinctive for the US from what I understand. People in most western
countries don't have to report to them once they've left other than to renew
passports.

~~~
kingkilr
That's correct, the US does taxes by citizenship, whereas most countries do it
by residence.

~~~
rafski
In other words, US citizens are US property.

~~~
ahoyhere
It gets worse: you can give up your US citizenship, but the US claims you must
file taxes (and PAY taxes) for 10 years afterwards.

We are chattel.

------
seanharper
This is fascinating, and I would really like to try this at some point.
However, I am 30, married and have a 1 year old kid. Does anyone have any
similar resources, examples, for people who have done this with kid(s)?

~~~
carlio
Here are a few that I've come across over the last year or so:
<http://manvsdebt.com/> <http://twitter.com/sperrazzo>
<http://almostfearless.com/about/> <http://locationindependent.com/>

------
Tichy
Wouldn't the rich way to do it be to buy a yacht and float from place to
place?

~~~
maigret
You're right! That would be the rich way and would be of course totally
awesome. You have to be really successful before to be able to do that though
;) That would just make 99% of the readers feel miserable as a result...

------
dennisgorelik
Internet allows "rich live" without actual traveling.

Besides, if you have kids, traveling is much harder / expensive.

~~~
maigret
Can you explain the first line a bit more? I am a NY fan and maintain
electronic contacts with many people there, but it's _nothing_ compared to
being there in person in my opinion.

~~~
dennisgorelik
Now that we can even use video in electronic communications the difference
with "in person" is getting really slim.

For me advantages of electronic communications (speed, easy accessibility,
various tools such as HN, conversation logs) outweigh "in person"
communication most of the time.

~~~
maigret
I find electronic communication fine for most work tasks - but definitely not
enough for tourism. Also not for seeing loved ones like my best friends and
family.

~~~
dennisgorelik
That would change with time (technology): in the end all our perception
translates into electrical impulses in our brains anyway.

------
hetaoblog
interesting experience. for people running personal web business, maybe this
is worth trying for some period; I just started to do something during
weekends, hope it can grow big to cover my daily job

------
georgieporgie
What are the best technologies to focus on in order to be mobile/remote?

I've notice that _nobody_ is interested in remote C++ development, and the few
people I meet who are doing something like this are in some branch of web
development.

~~~
smikhanov
Sure. The bottom line is that nobody is interested in any _serious_ stuff
being done remotely. So those type of stories you usually hear from someone
like these folks who did "online communications" and "freelance web
design/programming", which is not serious by definition. Projects involving
something like C++ have significantly higher chances of having a bigger scope,
impact and different set of responsibilities from all participants.

This lifestyle might be appealing for some very short period of life, under
very specific circumstances. You have to be young to not worry about health
insurance. You have to have the job that is simple enough to be outsourced and
complicated enough to be at least reasonably paid. You have to not worry about
"career" or "experience" (which are just different words for "future"). You
have to be from the first-class country to take advantage of the visa
requirements with your passport. It is also interesting to note that things
they can afford in certain countries, like going to the beach every day, would
definitely be prohibited for them in their home country given their occupation
(note their remark on costs in Argentina, which, I assume, are lower than in
Belgium).

I can elaborate much further as few of my friends live this sort of lifestyle
in South-East Asia. From what I know about it, it's definitely (a) not for me,
(b) doesn't make me think that the future knowledge workers will work that
way. I work on my own projects in one of the most expensive cities on the
planet and it's hard for me to see how can I relocate anywhere without losing
the advantages I'm getting from the infrastructure and population here.

UPDATE: Though seeing the world is awesome, I'd personally prefer saving
10-20K and taking a year off work for that.

~~~
Joeri
It helps that they are from Belgium. Healthcare isn't an issue, because I'm
sure they arranged for repatriation insurance ahead of time for anything
serious, and once back in belgium getting medical treatment is cheap. Career
and experience weren't affected, because a gap year doesn't matter much to
employers. Passports similarly aren't an issue. I've been to south-africa,
thailand and the US, and I never needed a visum.

I used to be big on the idea of leaving belgium and going to "nice" places to
live there. Over here the weather always seemed to be cold and rainy, the
people inhospitable and narrow-minded, and the cities dull and lifeless.
Travelling sort of brought me back home. The weather is cold and rainy at
times, but it's also totally unpredictable, and appreciating that has made me
realize it's not as rainy as I thought it was. The people may not be as warm
and welcoming as they are in thailand, but they also respect your privacy and
they are more honest with their emotions. As far as the cities go, I've really
come to love Antwerp, where I live now. When I go on vacation to thailand now
(went once a year for the past few years), it's amazing, and I get to do
things that are impossible in belgium (I got married with nothing but green
fields between us and mountains on all sides), but after a few weeks I always
get homesick.

In a way, I think this sort of on-the-move lifestyle is meant for people that
haven't found a home yet. Once you do find a genuine home, not just a place
where your bed is, and come to appreciate it, you simply don't need to do
this. I still like to travel, but only to satisfy curiosity, not because I
think other places are nicer.

~~~
nomadznu
Hi Joeri. From Belgium too I presume. It indeed helped we're from Belgium,
regarding the insurances. On the other hand: for US citizens this way of
living is even cheaper if they are paying health insurance in their home
country. Because that's so darn expensive over there.

That's why so many people go to Thailand: health care is inexpensive and very
very good when compared to the costs related to it in their own country. We
had to go once: the total costs medicines included: 37 euro. I never took the
bill to my health insurance to be reimbursed...

So the insurance thing is nice, but you have to compare it to the real costs.

As far as what you're saying on Belgium: we totally agree: We came back to
Belgium in Feb, when it was rainy and people where still complaining... And
suddenly it was Spring and well, heaven.

I myself have been living for 2.5 years abroad before this one year trip.
Coming back to Belgium, Ghent, is always superb. We love it. And we found our
home quite a while ago. It's Ghent. One of the most beautiful cities in the
world.

But we love travelling too. And that's why we decided to do this trip: we
didn't want to wait until we're retired to do what we love to do.

In our ideal lifestyle we'd do this each year for 3 to 4 months. Just like
grandparents who skip winter in Spain, but our destinations would be a tiny
bit different :)

------
sliverstorm
Beetle? Vintage? That seems to imply "good"...

~~~
nomadznu
Lol. We did the roads with a small (expensive) rented car. Airco and
everything. And then we did it with the beetle: noisy, difficult to steer,
fun. It doesn't imply good. It implies 'unforgettable' ;)

