
Thunderbolt 3 embraces USB Type-C connector, doubles bandwidth to 40Gbps - rbii
http://arstechnica.co.uk/gadgets/2015/06/thunderbolt-3-embraces-usb-type-c-connector-doubles-bandwidth-to-40gbps/
======
Roritharr
I'm kinda disapointed about the whole Type-C scenario.

Now when you've got a Type-C Port, you just don't know what it can do. It
could be anything from a USB 2 Port, up to a USB 3.1 + 20A Power + Thunderbolt
Port.

You can't see this from looking at it, and Spec Sheets today have a problem of
listing the version numbers of HDMI and DisplayPort Ports, I don't see them
suddenly becoming very concise about this.

The promise of USB has always been one of standardization. If I knew my
mothers notebook is from around somewhere after 2008, if it has a USB Port, it
will be USB 2 compatible.

In 2020 i won't be able to know if the monitor i recommend my mother will be
able to connect to her laptop over the USB Type-C Port or not, or if it will
run at full resolution or not, if it will be able to charge the notebook over
it, or not... etc.

Its just a mess. If you make a standard, please make it a standard, not a pick
and choose affair where the result ist just confusion.

~~~
FreakyT
I disagree, provided that the standard provides for some degree of backwards
compatibility.

I think it's great how a USB 3.0 drive will still work on a USB 1.0 computer
from 1999. Sure, it'll run slower, but it'll _work_ , and even without an
adapter! With Apple's previous various high-speed ports (Firewire 400,
Firewire 800, Thunderbolt), they have no backwards compatibility -- from FW
400 -> 800 you could use an adaptor, but for Thunderbolt you're out of luck
completely.

~~~
Roritharr
The point is, there will be Plug-Compatible Devices that are not Backwards
compatible, as evidenced by the Thunderbolt Port switching to it.

Of course other Devices will follow that come without external power supplies
and other features that don't allow for graceful degradation. Thats my point.

If it all were backwards compatible as it has been until now, things would be
great, but that door has been shut now.

~~~
tw04
Just so we're clear, you'd rather have to carry around 10 different dongles
just so you can know, visually, what a port is capable of?

I'm sorry - when I buy the laptop, I look at what the port can do, and I
remember it. If I'm in a meeting and I have to use someone else's, I ask if
they know. If they don't, I try it, and if it doesn't work, we move on.

I can't come up with any scenario in which this is a bad thing, outside of
sheer laziness or poor planning.

~~~
wilsynet
But he's OK that you can't tell USB v1 from USB v2 visually. Somehow he's able
to discern or recall the date of manufacture but won't be able to remember
that it's a Thunderbolt port.

~~~
DannoHung
They probably should come up with some way to simply mark things though, so
you can easily tell by looking at what you're plugging in that everything is
good.

~~~
yellowapple
Many USB 3.0 ports have blue inner connectors to indicate that they're 3.0
ports, and some USB ports will have yellow connectors instead to indicate a
variety of things (from better charging rate to supplying power even when the
host device is powered off). I think the logical extension of this would be
resistor-style color code bands to indicate different sets of functionality
(yellow for Thunderbolt, red for charging, etc.).

------
izacus
Hmm, I don't understand the description fully - does that mean that it can
happen that I can get a device with USB-C plug, plug it into computer and it
won't work because the device uses Thunderbolt 3 and the computer isn't an
Apple?

Or will all Thunderbolt 3 devices be able to scale back and communicate with
devices over USB if the controller is not available? How will that work with
displays over USB-C connectors? Is there a possibility that now instead of
just checking for a USB port, we'll have to read the list of
controllers/protocols available in devices connecting over USB-C ports?

~~~
lectrick
For the record,

1) Apple was the first to use USB even though it wasn't an Apple tech

2) Apple was the first to use Thunderbolt even though it wasn't an Apple tech

3) Apple is now the first to use USB 3 Type C (aka "USB-C") even though it
wasn't an Apple tech (although rumor has it that Apple engineers had a lot of
input on it)

The technology you're probably confusing it with is FireWire, which WAS Apple
tech.

~~~
jrockway
> 3) Apple is now the first to use USB 3 Type C

Didn't the Chromebook Pixel 2 come out slightly before the MacBook?

~~~
lebrad
Yes, the MacBook was released April 10, but the Chromebook Pixel was already
shipping USB type-C in March. Someone in the other Thunderbolt type-C thread
also mistakenly claimed that Apple was the first company to use type-C.

~~~
Eric_WVGG
I believe the MacBook was technically the first USB-C device announced (and
rumors about it go all the way back to last year), but the Pixel shipped
earlier.

~~~
EddieRingle
Actually, the Nokia N1 tablet was announced late 2014, shipped in China
earlier this year, and featured a Type C port.

------
donatj
When Thunderbolt was first released it caused a lot of confusion in my office
for people with DisplayPort who couldn't hook up to Thunderbolt monitors,
bought for them by our IT group that really didn't understand the difference.
I see this problem coming on strong AGAIN with this. This port is just USB-C
while this other port is USB-C _and_ Thunderbolt... That sounds like a load of
confusion waiting to happen.

~~~
orbitur
I think the Apple TB Display is comparable here.

If you have a rare TB device, you're probably a professional, and yes, you'll
need to ensure the TB logo is on the port. If it's an extremely common USB
device, it'll work on any port, without exception.

The Apple Thunderbolt monitors are Apple's fault. There was no reason they
couldn't have accepted a raw DisplayPort signal, but they still didn't.

~~~
kjjw
Confused. I have an Apple TB display and plug it into a ThinkPad mini
DisplayPort port. Works fine.

~~~
outworlder
It really doesn't work - I really really wish it did.

Your ThinkPad has a Thunderbolt port (which doubles as a DisplayPort).

------
awalton
Ugh Intel. We _just_ fixed the USB problem of "I can't figure out which way to
plug this thing in", why do you have to go and add the complication of "Wait,
is this a Thunderbolt or USB C device/port?"

This is why we can't have nice things.

~~~
ghshephard
I think you've got it backwards - if I'm reading this correctly, and you own a
(for the sake of argument), 2016 MacBook Pro - your Thunderbolt 3 ports will
support everything. USB/Thunderbolt are now using the same physical interface
(no need for dongles), and Thunderbolt 3 will support USB 3.1. In the
incredibly rare (will likely never be seen by an average consumer) scenario
that you have some high-end equipment that actually requires Thunderbolt 3,
and not USB 3.1 - you'll definitely know whether your device supports it, and
on which ports.

Put in regular terms - you can now use your USB 3.1 device in any port that
you can plug into.

~~~
toothbrush
I admit i'm not super clued-up on this, but i just looked up the new MacBook,
it turns out that the sum total of its ports is one (1) USB-C and one (1)
3.5mm headphone jack. Does that mean i have to choose between charging,
connecting a video projector, or using some USB hub i'll have to lug around to
be able to read someone's presentation off a USB key while simultaneously
connected to a projector? I wouldn't want to be in a position where i'm forced
to run on the battery in certain circumstances, either (i'm a bit paranoid
about the battery running out -- this is not impossible if one is giving a
presentation after having spent a few hours on a train [in a backwards country
without power outlets, of course] working hard)...

~~~
ghshephard
The new macbook is for people who are 100% focussed on mobility, and _nothing_
else. That is a small niche of people. Think of it like an non-touch iPad with
a keyboard, and you kind of have a sense of its purpose. The vision for the
Macbook is "Wireless".

Just looking at your use cases though:

o Charging - the idea is that you have battery life in the 8+ hour range, so
that when you are connected to a projector, you don't need to be charging.

o Reading a presentation off a USB key while connected to a projector - I've
been doing that exact thing for the last 3 years, on an almost weekly basis -
and 100% of the time I borrow the USB key for a second, and then hand it back
to the owner (or put it in my USB wallet). The important thing there is
sufficient local storage.

But yes - The MacBook is probably not for you, and it's definitely not for me.

I'm just psyched that my next MacBook Air (or whatever they call it - maybe
I'll have to move upstream to the Macbook Pro if they dump the "Air" line)
will have three USB capable ports instead of the current 2 + 1 Thunderbolt.

------
hendersoon
Sadly, the blocker for external graphics isn't the power draw, it's that Intel
steadfastly refuses to license Thunderbolt for external GPU enclosures.

That's why you can't buy a macbook air and plug in a little $300 box with a
GeForce 970 and play high-end games on it right now. There are no technical
reasons why this won't work-- in fact, people have hacked together solutions
that work great.

Intel doesn't want to let you do it.

~~~
grecy
Slide #15 in the presentation actually has "External graphics" as a bullet
point, so maybe that's about to change?

~~~
hendersoon
So it does! I hope you're right, that would be amazing!

------
Already__Taken
Seems to be trading all our different ports with the problem of having all
levels of different cables?

This port is going to be very expensive for the manufactures. If it does
everything I'm going to need a bunch. Does anything stop OEMs making a row of
identical ports that only 1 charges my laptop, only a couple take can use the
fastest cable and I'm sure all sorts of potential shenanigans,

~~~
IshKebab
This already happens. My laptop has three USB ports. One with just the USB
symbol, one with the superspeed USB symbol ("SS") and one with the superspeed
symbol and a lightening bolt. I'm not sure exactly what that lightning bolt...
Who knows what that means - maybe support for the Battery Charging
Specification (5V, 1.5A)?

We'll just have to get used to ports having a load of obscure symbols next to
them.

~~~
Already__Taken
It's a sad kind of funny we'll finally get a port I can plug anything in
either way up but now have to look even harder at the icons to make sure it's
the correct identical port. Can't even feel for the USB embossed logo side up
for that one.

And yes the lightning bolt will charge things without powering your laptop on.
Very handy.

------
hjnilsson
And finally, the future has arrived. If the iPhone 7 (doubt the 6S) sports
USB-C as well, there will be a truly universal connector. Imagine screens,
laptops, TVs, phones, mp3 players, docks, hard drives and toasters all using
the same plug (well, maybe not the last one). There will be a painful time of
transition until we are there, but hopefully it will be the last one.

(Conveniently this also saves Apple on the new MPBs, they can now have both
USB A and USB C ports without it being weird)

~~~
imaginenore
Apple using a standard connector, dream on.

~~~
jacobolus
> _Apple using a standard connector, dream on._

Apple is clearly pushing heavily behind the scenes in both the USB-IF and with
Intel/Thunderbolt to drive USB Type C ports. Reportedly their engineers did
much of the work designing the port. Looking at their one-port Macbook,
they’re obviously heavily invested in USB Type C’s success. I assume every
future Mac is going to be mostly USB Type C ports. Can you clarify what you
mean with your comment?

I’m guessing iPhones will stick with Lightning on one end for at least the
near future though.

~~~
genericuser
I just want to thank you for qualifying your description of Apple's
contribution to USB-C in a correct manner, as opposed to perpetuating the myth
that Apple invented USB-C. It's initial conception having come out of the USB
3.1 development by AMD, HP, Intel, and Microsoft. It is refreshing to see
someone not spreading the revisionist history that has been popular on this
subject.

~~~
jacobolus
My external non-expert impression (which could be totally off-base; I don’t
have inside sources) is that folks making devices like phones and tablets were
jealous of the reversibility, faster battery charging, and size advantage
Apple could obtain with Lightning jacks, compared to the ridiculous extended
USB 3.1 Micro-B jack, and started clamoring for a better connector sometime in
~2012. Once Apple realized such a new connector would be coming with or
without them, they decided to throw their weight behind it and make sure that
the connector met all of their own needs.

Apple certainly isn’t the only party (or even the main party) responsible for
the new connector, but from what I’ve read they do deserve some applause for
putting their resources in and making sure the new connector is the best it
can be.

~~~
genericuser
That all agrees with how I understand the situation as a fellow external non-
expert. I just got really frustrated a while back by all the 'Apple invented
USB-C' and even the 'Apple basically invented USB-C' headlines. So wanted to
applaud someone for choosing the phrasing 'much of the work' which I believe
to be a correct statement, and if incorrect only errors slightly on the side
of too much credit.

------
jacobolus
The linked site seems to be completely toast, but here are some secondary
sources which I’d guess have approximately the same content:
[http://www.cnet.com/news/thunderbolt-3-and-usb-type-c-
join-f...](http://www.cnet.com/news/thunderbolt-3-and-usb-type-c-join-forces-
for-one-port-to-rule-them-all/)
[http://www.pcworld.com/article/2929798/thunderbolt-3-to-
work...](http://www.pcworld.com/article/2929798/thunderbolt-3-to-work-over-
usb-c.html)
[http://www.theverge.com/2015/6/2/8704067/thunderbolt-3-usb-c...](http://www.theverge.com/2015/6/2/8704067/thunderbolt-3-usb-
c-computex-2015)

------
berberous
Can someone explain whether I should care that they are still using DP 1.2
rather than 1.3? I had thought 1.3 was needed for non stitched 4k 60hz, but
this should have plenty of bandwidth, so I'm now not sure what the issue with
1.2 vs 1.3 is.

~~~
alcidesfonseca
Displayport daisy-chaining for screens above 1980x1080p requires 1.3. (Using
two daisy-chained dell screen's on my 2011 macbook air does not work because
it requires 1.3 and mba only supports 1.2.

------
lawl
So now you can't even put glue in the thunderbolt port anymore to prevent DMA
attacks?

I don't think DMA attacks have been fully solved yet via software, or am I not
up to date here? I guess you could blacklist the driver.

~~~
jimmy0x52
Just glue over your USB-C ports with tinfoil.

~~~
lawl
You do realize that this is a very easy to pull off attack?
[http://www.breaknenter.org/projects/inception/](http://www.breaknenter.org/projects/inception/)

Do you also think people who use screenlocks are tinfoil hatters?

~~~
lfuller
It's more that your computer should be considered compromised regardless if
you allow someone to gain physical access to it. You should know where your
device is at all times.

I'm not willing to throw away my device's resale value to block a physical
compromise attack.

~~~
lawl
It's about noise. The physical lock on your door doesn't prevent anyone from
breaking in. But you can clearly tell someone broke in and it creates noise.

It's not always practical to take your notebook to the toilet with you, so you
want to make it as hard as possible for someone to compromise it in a limited
time frame. Security is never absolute, it just about buying time to notice an
attack. This applies to the physical lock on your door just as much as it does
on your notebook

------
snarfy
The USB C connector is awesome and this is great news.

I still wish the industry would have standardized on the 2.5mm jack. It can be
plugged in any direction. You could pull a cord out of a mess of cables and it
would not snag as there is nothing to snag on.

~~~
pjc50
Not very suitable for high-speed impedence-matched communication, and not
ideal for power delivery: the 'ring' prong in the socket touches the tip on
insertion.

~~~
wlesieutre
And for a 12-wire USB Type-C equivalent you'd need a TRRRRRRRRRRS connector.

------
digi_owl
And they leave out the one thing that would be interesting, a wiring diagram.

the C port is interesting in that it provides both USB pins and a set of pins
that can be used for a number of functions (Displayport being its out of the
gate use).

If this leave the USB pins alone, and make use of the supplemental pins for
Thunderbolt, there will be no port confusion. Especially as Tunderbolt is
already set up to carry Displayport data anyways.

Then it just comes down to the chipset to negotiate the right protocols.

~~~
bryanlarsen
That's basically how it works. There's a pair of wires that run USB 2.0. Those
are then used to negotiate what the 8 high speed wires and 2 sideband wires
are used for.

------
outworlder
So, will Apple finally be able to refresh the Thunderbolt Display?

I got an old one I want to sell before it gets obsolete. I guess the time is
now.

Edit: "Thunderbolt 3 integrates USB 3.1, optional 100W power delivery, 5K @
60Hz display."

Optional power delivery? Optional nowadays just mean "will be removed before
even reaching production"

~~~
wlesieutre
Universal Serial Bus. With optional universalness.

I think Roritharr is right, this is the beginning of the end for the great era
of standardization that USB brought. If there was a port and a cable, you
pretty much knew it would work for everything the port should do.

DisplayPort and HDMI port/cable versioning have been a colossal pain for me.
GPU spec lists on shopping sites don't even list what version they support, so
you have to constantly cross reference things to manufacturer datasheets.

[http://i.imgur.com/ffMR5gj.png](http://i.imgur.com/ffMR5gj.png)

What's sad is that we had the same sorts of differentiations in the past, like
with DVI-I (digital and analog) and DVI-D (digital only) and Dual-link DVI
(for big screens). So what did we do? We called them different things and then
actually advertised what it was capable of.

But apparently saying "DisplayPort 1.2" is too complicated now or something?
Maybe there are too many different optional features that may or may not be
supported by a GPU or the cable or the display, so they just assume none of
them will work? I don't even know.

That screenshot isn't an old graphics card either, it's a GTX 970.

Not looking forward to USB turning into the same mess.

EDIT: This isn't _all_ new, I recall seeing some laptops with strange things
like yellow USB ports that were still powered for charging when the computer
is sleeping. But that's a minor feature that most people wouldn't even notice.
Major capabilities missing from some ports is different, and can get more
confusing than "the blue ports are faster but all of them will work".

~~~
tw04
That is completely inaccurate. USB-C is backwards compatible with older
versions of USB. And just like older versions of USB, the version directly
determined capabilities. They did make an effort with USB3 to make the ports
blue, but even that isn't universally true.

USB is already "that mess" depending on what it is you need the port to do.
Let me know how that USB-powered device that needs 90W does when you plug it
into a port that's only 1.0 capable.

------
grecy
Given that it supports dual 4K displays at 60Hz with one cable, or a single 5K
display at 60Hz with one cable, I think it's safe to say Apple are waiting for
this to announce their new cinema display.

Anyone think they'll pre-announce it at WWDC (like they did the Mac Pro)?

~~~
stephenr
With any luck that will mean the return of a ~24" 4k screen along side a new
~27" 5k

------
stephen_g
I'm interested in how backwards compatibility works - will old Thunderbolt
devices work with just an adaptor cable? As someone who does a lot of
professional video/audio work, I have a bunch of Thunderbolt devices so I hope
that's the case.

~~~
orbitur
This article (
[http://www.theverge.com/2015/6/2/8704067/thunderbolt-3-usb-c...](http://www.theverge.com/2015/6/2/8704067/thunderbolt-3-usb-
c-computex-2015) ) explicitly mentions an adapter for the older Thunderbolts.
I assume the adapter would be passive.

------
chatmasta
I have a Thunderbolt Display I have been meaning to sell. I think a.s.a.p is
probably the time to do it, since I expect a release of a USB-C display at
WWDC.

------
anigbrowl
Is this finally one port to rule them all? Please let it be so so that we can
keep things the same for more than 12 months at a time.

------
rasz_pl
Intel just cant let go the idea of collecting IP royalties from every single
device you plug into your computer :/

~~~
rayiner
Yeah, they should just stop developing USB technology for other people to use.

------
out_of_protocol
One port to rule em all

~~~
the8472
Considering the DMA vulnerabilities of thunderbolt, that's not too far off.

At least until we have some sort of IOMMU-based hotplug device firewalls in
our operating systems.

~~~
TazeTSchnitzel
USB 3.0 has DMA too.

~~~
the8472
But is that remote DMA? Controller/driver-managed DMA transfers in the fashion
of "shovel the next X incoming kilobytes to this memory range" is not the same
as arbitrary writes to host memory initiated by a device.

~~~
TazeTSchnitzel
Ah, maybe it isn't, fair point.

