
Should RapGenius be able to "negotiate" with Matt Cutts and Google? - pccampbell
I started my tech career working in Adwords Sales and Sales Operations at Google. One of the biggest complaints we received was our clients needed help getting ahold of someone regarding SEO problems. Of course, there was little we could do on the paid side - which was Google&#x27;s policy.<p>The whole point of Google&#x27;s ranking algorithm is to keep it as much of a black box as possible with even Jason Calacanis getting nowhere with his Mahalo battle with Matt Cutts and team.<p>I&#x27;m uncomfortable with what appears to be almost a direct line the RapGenius gents have with the Google team to come to what they&#x27;ve coined as a &quot;resolution&quot; between the two entities.<p>With thousands of other sites being unable to get ahold of a human being at Google to resolve SEO problems, do you think RapGenius should have the ability to negotiate with Google? Do they have enough traffic to justify the conversation? Should that matter?
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captainmuon
I've said it a couple of times. Google (with others like Facebook, Apple) is
so big, its essentially infrastructure, and needs to be regulated.

It's not just that they can penalize other companies, and competitors (wheter
they have a "legitimate" reason or not). They can make people's ideas,
political positions, etc. essentially disappear.

A stupid example: If they wanted to oppress trade unions, they could penalize
every page with information about unions when someone searches for "workers'
rights". More likely, they could work with oppressive governments to remove
certain unpleasant historical events from people's sight.

I wonder why the European Union doesn't do anything... they used to be very
strict about antitrust laws, privacy, etc.. Probably someone has to step up
and sue Google for them to get active. I could think of a few things they
could do here.

\- One is to force Google to make their rankings more transparent.

\- Google could have offer a kind of appeals process if a manual penalty is
applied.

\- The EU could put a special tax on the market leader, which would fund a
subsidy for promising competitors. (Google's European office is currently
registered in a low tax haven in Ireland.)

None of this is without precedent, but there would have to be the right
political intent to get something like this started.

And before someone says Google is not in the EU's jurisdiction: Europe is a
huge market. They have already fought antitrust trials with Microsoft, and MS
could have said "screw you guys" and stopped doing business here, but instead
they paid their penalties, because anything else would have been crazy. And if
the EU is not going to do it, there are very self-conscious governments in
Brazil, China, and India that might put pressure on Google & co..

(OTOH, we know that Governments like monopolists like Google when they help
them censor and surpress information, but that's a different topic.)

~~~
CamperBob2
_I 've said it a couple of times. Google (with others like Facebook, Apple) is
so big, its essentially infrastructure, and needs to be regulated._

That's been obvious for the better part of a decade now. People will scream
bloody murder, and not without good cause, but it's either going to happen, or
there's no point in even pretending to regulate public utility monopolies.

~~~
mtrimpe
I'm pretty sure the EU is itching to start regulating Google in Europe, but to
do that they'll need to find a point of leverage somewhere and so far that's
been hard to find.

Put another way: exactly what about Google could they (practically) regulate
and will have sufficient public support?

In essence the problem tis about Google being able to wield disproportionate
power through it's rankings and our common sense telling us that they will
eventually abuse this if left unchecked; but that they aren't abusing this too
blatantly just yet.

Not that that's of any help for people like my friend who ran a (handwritten)
long tail content generation company which worked hard to stay within Google's
guidelines yet had the company he and 3 friends had worked on for 4 years
destroyed overnight just months ago when someone at Google decided they didn't
like the content and penalized every single one of his clients.

~~~
mattmanser
Actually, one could argue they already are abusing it and are doing so with
increasing frequency.

They've been tailoring search results to cut out the specialized aggregators,
like including their own shopping results above other stores.

The obvious one you've probably seen recently is movies. They now show the
actors, related films and rankings, depriving views and ad space from the
sites that offered that information.

They've also been doing it with maps for years for search terms like 'x in y
city' as well as entering the ratings business. This content is often poor,
but I imagine every click into an aggregator is a loss to google as the ad
spend potentially goes on that aggregator instead of google.

You could see all of these are attempting to circumvent other businesses and
abusing their monopoly. But I imagine none of these businesses want to
complain as to be shut out of Google on the internet is death. You can't tell
google to not steal your content, without telling them to not list your
content.

They seem to justify it with claims that they're just giving searchers what
they want, but in the end they own the highways, and now they seem to be
putting their own facades up in front of a significant number of the
businesses along the highway too which means they have to advertise on google
just to get above google's own internal adverts.

Perhaps I'm misinterpreting, but actual search results often seem to appear a
very, very long way down the page on a lot of terms these days.

~~~
sokoloff
I like the customized search results. They're more often than not helpful to
me.

If I want the weather in a city I'm visiting, why wouldn't I want it on the
google page, instead of another click away?

The rest of the Internet has no natural right to views and clicks sent their
way from google. If google gives users the best search results (among the more
than half-dozen credible search engines), users will use them. Do enough
hostile things to users and users will go elsewhere. If their competition
improves while they stay stagnant, they will also start to lose market share.

Google is improving Google's offering. That's laudable, because it helps
Google's users and Google's financials.

------
andrewljohnson
Matt Cutts should also probably recuse himself from this issue. He is an
investor in a YC round and multiple YC companies. That's an obvious conflict
of interest, whether or not it affects the outcome.

[http://www.mattcutts.com/blog/disclosure/](http://www.mattcutts.com/blog/disclosure/)

~~~
kapilkale
For what it's worth, Matt Cutts has historically put his responsibility as
head of webspam above other interests. For example, he's penalized Google
itself.

[http://searchengineland.com/google-chrome-page-will-have-
pag...](http://searchengineland.com/google-chrome-page-will-have-pagerank-
reduced-due-to-sponsored-posts-106551)

There's still a conflict of interest, and it is possible he is giving his
interests more leniency.

~~~
yeukhon
Side note: it's interesting that he continues to serve in this position for
many years. I see a lot of directors/managers shift around, but not really
him.

------
bushido
_> do you think RapGenius should have the ability to negotiate with Google_

No.

 _> Do they have enough traffic to justify the conversation_

Yes, maybe.

 _> I'm uncomfortable with what appears to be almost a direct line the
RapGenius gents have with the Google team to come to what they've coined as a
"resolution" between the two entities._

So am I.

In the past I have seen Google responding and resolving penalization with some
sites, where in the problem lay in the internally, with
intentional/unintentional shady practices.

I have no problems with this.

But RG took some of their activities to a whole different level, one that I
have seen before by blackhat marketers only. Just like I would not expect
blackhat marketers to get away with it, I would not like Google or any other
search engine to open doors to the possibility of people who got caught to
have an easy out.

Maintaining neutrality and upholding previously established best practices
would also be fair to any new start-ups that may want to enter the lyrics
space.

~~~
pccampbell
It was essentially the same tactic as comment lurkers, IMHO.

~~~
GhotiFish
explain.

------
blueyes1977
I found ridiculous so many things here:

1\. Their black SEO practice around Justin Bibier as they call themselves
RapGenius (LOL)

2\. Those are the guys we're talking about.
[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4NAzQPll7Lo](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4NAzQPll7Lo)
(show me love ...yes)

3\. They were 100% illegal, beside the big investment they got, they didn't
pay copyrighters for using their lyrics.
[http://www.slate.com/blogs/browbeat/2013/11/13/rap_genius_co...](http://www.slate.com/blogs/browbeat/2013/11/13/rap_genius_copyright_lawsuit_national_music_publishers_association_threatens.html)

Now that said, why the hell someone like Google has to negotiate with them ?

b

------
austenallred
The difficulty from the standpoint of Google is the absurd scale that they
have to deal with. Indeed, a mission of indexing all information and making it
immediately available is a daunting one.

I get the sense that HN feels like these penalties are a rare thing; this type
of ranking penalty is happening to an absurd amount of websites every day. If
you were to rank the number of websites that received a manual penalty from
Google on the same day as RapGenius by amount of traffic, my guess would be
RapGenius wouldn't be in the top 10. They're not in a position to "negotiate"
with Google, and Google doesn't "negotiate." They slap your wrist when they
find you doing something dirty, and you try to recover your reputation. The
only reason Google would try to work with RapGenius would be because of the PR
RapGenius can generate, which appears to be happening, but there's no way they
will just remove the penalty. My guess is at best RapGenius will get an
expedited path to have the same options as any other site owner.

The only recourse a website owner has when they have received a manual penalty
is to disavow bad links, and hope that somehow they've identified all of the
bad links in their link disavow. This is a nefarious process for even the best
of SEOs, and the process is quite poor; I've even discussed this with Matt
Cutts in the past, but it's understandable considering the scale Google has to
deal with. You can't exactly have people taking phone calls. And in Google's
defense, they only penalize you if you were trying something sketchy anyway,
so it's your fault for playing with fire (except in the case of negative SEO,
but that's another discussion).

That said, while this ban will hurt RapGenius in the short-term, the penalty
likely won't last forever. And considering that it doesn't appear that they're
monetizing, it's not like they're losing revenue, just traffic for a short-
term. Penalties like this, if properly disavowed, usually last about 30 days.

Interestingly enough, I'm unsure how much the SEO spam would have helped
RapGenius in the first place; all of the links would have had the exact same
anchor text, which raises some red flags for Rap Genius. I'm not sure of the
kind of scale they were trying to hit with the blogs, but it was likely either
1. Not going to move the needle or 2. Become so big it would hurt them. Even
disregarding ethics of anti-black-hat SEO, it really was just a poor move on
the part of Rap Genius SEO-wise.

"Move fast and break stuff" can come back and bite you sometimes, but I'm
confident RapGenius will figure it out in the end.

~~~
pccampbell
This is the way it's supposed to work. This doesn't appear how it's working
with RapGenius:

TC article: [http://techcrunch.com/2013/12/25/google-rap-
genius/](http://techcrunch.com/2013/12/25/google-rap-genius/)

"Update: Rap Genius’ founders have provided this statement, indicating they’re
working with Google on being returned to better search result rankings:

... (statement from RapGenius talking about resolution)

"Looks like Rap Genius and Google might come to some compromise where Google
restores at least some of the startup’s search result ranking juice in
exchange for it cleaning up its act. However, at least some of the decreased
visibility is likely to stick around for a long time, impeding Rap Genius’
business. We’ll have more details on the outcome of the talks as soon as
possible and we are awaiting a response from Google."

~~~
code_duck
My interpretation is that Google may be willing to inform them better about
what is considered legitimate and what is not. Then, their ranking will be
returned as time goes on.

~~~
lingben
That's the point of the quesion! Why should they be able to enter into a
dialogue with google right smack in the middle of the holidays when others
can't get a hold of anyone in google anytime in the regular calendar?

~~~
code_duck
It's not clear what kind of dialogue they mean. From my reading, it could be
pretty much talking to a google 800 number and they made it sound like they
were being treated specially to spin their screwup to the public and
investors.

------
bobbyi_settv
Is there any evidence that Google is negotiating with them? As far as I've
seen, the only reason to think that is happening is that rap genius claimed
they are as part of their attempted damage control. Most companies are
basically shut down over Christmas and I doubt people at Google have been
spending this week negotiating with them. What am I missing that led you to
the opposite conclusion?

~~~
rjknight
That was my thought too. The RG statement strongly implies that Google are
helping them to "resolve" an "issue", which makes the whole thing sound like
some technical glitch that Google and RG are coordinating as equals to
resolve. In fact, RG just got caught blatantly trying to game their Google
search ranking and Google righteously slapped them down for it. I would be
surprised (and disappointed) if it turned out that any meaningful negotiation
had taken place.

------
jhonovich
Google did not say they were 'negotiating' with RapGenius. The claim about
'working with' comes from RapGenius. It could be that RapGenius is mistaken or
just thinking optimistically.

Let's see what happens but it seems like a stretch that Google would feel
compelled to 'negotiate' with RapGenius.

------
lazyjones
I don't see why RapGenius should get a better customer service than everybody
else from Google (i.e. none at all). Being able to negotiate anything at all
would be way better than what paying customers (e.g. AdWords) get these days
...

------
sergiotapia
I also think it's pretty bad how the RG guys seem to be able to invoke Google
at will.Especially considering how they've broken almost the most basic of
Ranking Rules and used black hat techniques.

I'd like a direct response from someone in charge from Google. Why, and how,
are the RG guys getting 1 on 1 support?

~~~
pccampbell
Article on getting ahold of Google:
[http://www.seroundtable.com/archives/006900.html](http://www.seroundtable.com/archives/006900.html)

Funny how most of the ways to get a response involve causing a scene to get
attention for an answer.

------
scottmcleod
No - SEO is not a game to play in grey area, its a risk that they took by
depending upon SERP for their source of traffic.

~~~
notastartup
I agree, if they give rapgenius leniency it would mean a double standard
exists at Google regarding their core product that we have come to trust.
Already duckduckgo is gaining more popularity because some of the trust
regarding our privacy has really gone down for a good reason (Snowden).

~~~
pccampbell
Do you think DuckDuckGo can play the long game though? #GoogleWinsEverything

------
jbigelow76

        >I'm uncomfortable with what appears to be almost a direct line the RapGenius gents have with the Google team to come to what they've coined as a "resolution" between the two entities.
    

What do you mean by this, was there another update since the initial penalty
was levied? RG still appears to be gone from the serps.

~~~
adventured
I think this is what the comment was referring to:

(the statement released by RG)

"We are working with Google right now to resolve this. They’ve been really
great, helping us identify changes we need to make, even on Christmas. We’re
working on it as fast as we can, and expect to be back on Google very soon."

[http://techcrunch.com/2013/12/25/google-rap-
genius/](http://techcrunch.com/2013/12/25/google-rap-genius/)

~~~
PavlovsCat
Maybe a Google employee is reading to them reaalllly slowly from the webmaster
guidelines. It's Christmas, after all. Then again, "RTFM and leave me alone,
it's Christmas!" would also be an understandable response... but I'm not gonna
judge the Googz for being down with a more patient approach, and dropping some
knowledge on grasshoppers in dire need.

------
lingben
I'm confused, is there a new development? what do you mean by negotiate? The
last thing I read on this was that they were penalized. Are they back in the
SERPs?

------
newnewnew
Google can do whatever they want. If I was the victim of a public name and
shame like this which included a very public Google punishment, I'd think it
would be in Google's best interest to make an example of me and to make an
example of how to get back in their good graces. Google may have shitty
customer service, but they don't want it to appear that way in a high-profile
case.

------
paulrademacher
Where do you see this "direct line"? I've seen no sign of that.

------
nknighthb
I'm happy every time it's made clear that search engine results are the
product of subjective factors and aren't "fair". It bolsters the argument that
their results are expressive and protected as such, shielding them from
interference by politicians.

------
dasmithii
There's a good chance that they're gaining page hits from this controversy
and, knowing the founders of Rap Genius (vaguely), I wouldn't be surprised if
they capitalize and conjure as much attention as possible here.

On a slightly different note, it doesn't seem right for Google to intervene
with specific companies' page rankings. Although Google isn't breaking laws,
the "black box" type of generic algorithm seems more ethical. Rather than
favoring individual groups/sites/corporations, I think Google should maintain
credibility by encompassing all rules, regulations, and penalties within one
algorithm. Search engine results shouldn't be subjective.

~~~
eropple
Out-of-band information can't practically be analyzed through algorithms (at
least, not without getting a _lot_ spookier). They know that a company is in
violation of their link-sharing rules; acting on that doesn't seem unfair.

------
gesman
The fact that Rapgenius claimed to be in negotiations with Google does not
mean that they are in fact having some sort of "migration to white hat
strategy" personal meeting with Cutts in the same room.

"Live" person at Google might as well be delivering the old same beaten up
"write unique content" and "remove bad links" message to them, albeit in
personalized format.

I don't think rapgenius is big enough to buy Google a drink for a free
personalized SEO tips.

------
zoltar92
This is a slippery slope. You have to keep in mind that >2% (some estimates as
high as 7%) of Google Queries are related to lyrics/ RG related content. They
also (arguably) have much better, much more _relevant_ content. As such a
large amount of google searches would end up with someone wanting a RapGenius
page - it's only fair that they would get preferential treatment over a niche
startup/site/blog.

~~~
zoltar92
Reference 1:
[http://mobile.reuters.com/article/technologyNews/idUSTRE6650...](http://mobile.reuters.com/article/technologyNews/idUSTRE6650FK20100706)

Reference 2: [http://thenextweb.com/apps/2011/09/03/why-the-music-
industry...](http://thenextweb.com/apps/2011/09/03/why-the-music-industry-
wants-a-piece-of-lyrics-site-rap-genius/)

------
pastpartisan
the rankings will be restored. rich, successful ppl always get their way

------
redthrowaway
No. RapGenius broke the rules, and the punishment is temporary. Suck it up,
take your medicine, and don't do it again.

------
RBerenguel
They should just receive links to usual webmaster recommendations and Cutts'
YouTube. And that should be it.

------
rickyc091
They shouldn't, but they probably will due to their investor.

------
z_
No.

------
DanBC
Fuck no.

