
The sociology of drinking - overgard
http://www.gladwell.com/2010/2010_02_15_a_drinking.html
======
overgard
I thought HN might be interested in this based on the post yesterday
challenging people to avoid getting drunk/live in the moment. I noticed there
was a lot of misunderstanding as to how alcohol works on people/groups, so
this might be informative to some.

~~~
sc68cal
I personally did not care for the article
(<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3552363>) because it was not technology
related, at all. The only link it had to anything technology related was where
the author worked.

If you don't like to drink, don't. If you like to drink, do so responsibly and
be considerate to others.

Nobody has the right to make value judgements about other people's lifestyles,
on this site.

~~~
corin_
I disagreed with that entire article, but the fact that it wasn't tech-related
doesn't mean it wasn't suitable for HN - neither, for that matter, does the
fact that you or I disagreed with it.

------
Anon84

        There is something about the cultural dimension of social
        problems that eludes us. When confronted with the rowdy
        youth in the bar, we are happy to raise his drinking age,
        to tax his beer, to punish him if he drives under the 
        influence, and to push him into treatment if his habit 
        becomes an addiction. But we are reluctant to provide him
        with a positive and constructive example of how to drink.
        The consequences of that failure are considerable, 
        because, in the end, culture is a more powerful tool in 
        dealing with drinking than medicine, economics, or the 
        law.

~~~
robfig
I wonder how such cultural messages could be introduced, if they do not exist
presently.

It doesn't seem like something that the government can do anything about, so
it makes sense that the govt reaches for new laws and restrictions to address
the problem (if unfortunate and ineffectual).

Very interesting read, thanks!

~~~
rdtsc
Look at other countries. In Europe for example, many families drink wine with
their meals. I knew the taste of wine and beer as young as 10 probably. My
parents would have wine and beer with their meals and it never turned into a
drunken debauchery as many American expect it to. I could tell they got
drunker because they talked louder for example. I never got really drunk that
young and never really wanted to binge drink later.

I got drunk on occasion with friends (and regretted it) but it most often
happened with American friends (who were more likely to binge drink I think).
So this bad attitude towards alcohol has somewhat rubbed off on me as well
after many years of living here.

------
baby
The post is called "drinking games" and it doesn't talk about drinking games
at all. Which is a shame because after traveling and drinking a lot in
different countries I've found that drinking games were one of the most
interesting thing.

For example, chinese people love to play with dices, or shouting games, hand
games... french people love to play card games when drinking. Canadian people
love beer pong... Which us french people find stupid, it's dirty and it's such
a hassle to play.

Although I love Malcolm Gladwell, surely not one of his most interesting
article.

PS: I also noted that professionally, alcohol is a huge part in Asia. Japan,
China, Korea, you are supposed to get drunk with your boss, you are suppose to
get drunk while concluding a deal...

In Canada, people drink alone, they drink alcohol in front of other people who
don't drink alcohol, they don't wait to drink...

In France, people always drink with other people, if the other doesn't drink
alcohol then one can't drink alcohol, we have to wait until everyone's poured
and everyone has cheered before drinking the first sip.

Also in France it's common courtesy to bring a bottle when you come to a
party, meeting and to share it with everyone. I learned the BYOB (Bring your
own bottle) in Canada, which I find really anti-sociable.

PS2: There are a lot of local, regional alcoholic drinks, but beer is
something I found everywhere.

~~~
kstenerud
In Asia, you are expected to act "drunk" when you are drinking with your
colleagues/boss. You aren't expected to _actually_ get that drunk, though you
can if you want. The higher your station, the less drunk you'll want to really
get because you may have to take an important call.

In Canada, people drink socially, and a smaller number drink alone (much like
anywhere else). If someone doesn't want to drink at a dinner or outing,
everyone else respects their choice not to drink and doesn't press them.
Waiting to drink depends on the social context.

~~~
zalew
> In Asia, you are expected to act "drunk" when you are drinking with your
> colleagues/boss. You aren't expected to actually get that drunk, though you
> can if you want

Comming from a culture that doesn't accept fake-drinking I must ask: what's
the point of it? Is there any cultural background explanation?

~~~
kstenerud
It's just part of the social ritual. You get "drunk" so that everyone can
unwind because the normal social rules no longer apply. You can even call your
boss a jerk and all will be forgotten tomorrow.

------
DanielBMarkham
Fascinating article -- lots of food for thought here.

It made me wonder. One of the common symbols of the "drinking problem" that
Americans had in the mid 1800s through prohibition was the saloon. It was men-
only, rowdy, all the business got done there, and men would come home drunk to
abuse their families.

Truly a horrible thing, of course, yet based on this article I wonder if the
mixing of cultures led to a loss of common rules? Or in other words, perhaps
the more culturally diverse the saloon was, the greater the problem of
alcoholism in the surrounding homes?

Interesting stuff! Thanks for posting.

------
guylhem
IMHO the best part of the article is in the italian exemple: considering wine
as just a kind of food or as a way to get high is a cultural thing. Usually
it's both, but one of the dimensions prevails.

I can not talk about Italy, but the same seems to happens in France: we try to
accomodate the plate with the wine. In such a situation, you do not drink to
get buzzed, but because it tastes good with the plate.

IIRC I was served my first wine when I was 10, but that did not turn me into a
wino. I still enjoy wine - with good food :-)

------
Karunamon
Definitely putting this article into my archives. Thank you for submitting it,
and please don't listen to the nay-sayers who claim this isn't technical
enough for HN. The mind can be a more interesting puzzle, a more imperative
problem to solve than anything man made.

------
myopia
I think the author has also uncovered a universal truth about drug use that
relates to it's original uptake, as well as their effects whilst under the
influence as detailed in the article . I believe that this relates alcohol,
caffeine or 'harder' drugs.

Take starting to smoke tobacco for instance, in the U.K smoking has seen a
large decline within the last decade (1), this can be can be attributed to
several factors including a ban on certain mediums of tobacco advertising (at
cultural and social events) and an increase in government adverts that address
the culture of social smoking as well as the more traditional health issues
(2), it is far more 'uncool' to smoke in the UK now.

Although largely harmless, drinking caffeine to 'start your day' is a
behaviour largely taught by culture. To further this point, Italian people in
general have a far more prevalent culture of drinking espresso than British,
with the existence of espresso bars (until recently) being a rarity.

I believe this has far wider implication that extend to the 'war on drugs' in
the US. I personally can testify that growing up in a drug infested area, I
was never tempted to partake in drug abuse due to family culture and my
upbringing.

(1)
[http://info.cancerresearchuk.org/cancerstats/types/lung/smok...](http://info.cancerresearchuk.org/cancerstats/types/lung/smoking/)

(2) <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cDAN7Oi62e0>

------
pnmahoney
"He wants to tell stories rather than to analyze a phenomenon. He tells them
well enough, if you can stand the style. ( _Blink_ is written like a book
intended for people who do not read books.)"

-Richard Posner on Malcolm Gladwell

------
MiWHackerNews
I found this fascinating and a alternative view to my own held beliefs on
alcohol.

This really seems to be a better way at addressing social policy - yes beyond
the genetic disposition to alcoholism there is definitely a cultural molding
that determines behavior.

If the expectation of behavior (say from holywood and tvland) is a major
factor in the behavior of those under the influence rather than say the
quantity or concentration of ethanol, maybe humanity can address this by how
popular culture programs us?

------
keypusher
I really enjoyed this, thanks.

------
mynameishere
Typical Gladwell article. In fact, the truth is simple: The farther from the
cradle of civilization [1] you get, the worse the alcoholism. Thus, Arabs and
Jews are rarely alcoholics, whereas Irish and Russians commonly are. When you
get to Indigenous Americans and Australians, alcoholism is a serious problem.
It's simple adaptation, no different than adaptation to smallpox.

[1] Where ethanol was first manufactured.

~~~
eurleif
If that's true, do you think alcohol should be regulated differently for
members of different racial/ethnic groups? That's a pretty controversial thing
to suggest, but it seems to follow if we assume that the government should
regulate alcohol at all, and that the regulation should be based on its
potential to do harm.

~~~
evincarofautumn
Not race (since that is a uselessly vague concept), but there are specific
genes that correlate with elevated or decreased risk of alcoholism. Perhaps
identifying at-risk individuals could be used for some social good, but I’d
wager any such efforts will ultimately be flawed and harmful.

