

Ask HN: Parents of 2 month old baby. Going nuts with stress - codegeek

I never thought I will ask HN for this but since this place is awesome in terms of advice on life events, I have decided to share my story. I hope that this post does not come as attention seeking or anything like that. I genuinely want to hear your opinions on our case.<p>So basically we just became proud and happy parents of a baby girl and she is just about 2 months old. Perfectly healthy baby and everything that <i>matters</i> is in good shape. Now, I understand that becoming a parent with a newborn is challenging and I am not expecting an easy way out but the stress has been phenomenal. We kind of planned things but were sloppy here and there and suddenly find us in a lot of stress. We have family support around us but they cannot be there every day including the nights which are toughest.  Our baby wakes up every 3 hours on average for milk and her mother is pumping milk. We are facing difficult nights and even though my wife is still in her maternity leave, I have to go to work and leave our house latest by 7:30 AM. We tried babysitter to help out but it did not turn out well (not the focus of this post). Last night, my wife was almost yelling at the baby because she won't drink the milk and it was really frustrating. This needs to change.<p>Our own relationship (wife and I) seems shaky suddenly and she has started resenting me. I don't know if it is temporary but it is not pretty. I am trying to be patient with her thinking it could be the hormones etc. but every other day, there is something new that she blames me for. I m not taking it personally but it is hard.<p>Question is: other than family support, google (babycenter.com etc.), what else can we do to figure things out better ? I am sure there are many experienced parents on HN and any advice for dealing with a newborn will be useful. I just seem to be lost right now even though I am usually a very confident and "I know what I am doing" kind of person. Not in this case :( Wife does not even know I am posting on HN.
======
dirktheman
Congratulations! In a year from now, this will seem only trivial, and you both
will be enjoying your beautiful kid. As a father of two, I have some advice
for you:

\- things will get better. Slowly, but still. Take it day by day, and accept
that times are really, really tough right now. Acceptance is the key here.

\- at least consider to stop breast feeding. My wife had similar issues as
yours, and the sleep deprivation was killing her. I know there's a big pro-
breastfeeding lobby, but there are no convincing and significant scientific
studies that say conclusively that breastfeeding is better OR worse for your
child. We gave our 2nd formula after a week or two, and we were all happy with
it.

\- do what feels good, trust your instincts. Don't listen too close to other
people's good advice. Including this one.

\- get someone to babysit for a weekend. Gt a decent night sleep and do
something funwith your wife. She'll appreciate it more than you think!

\- most of all: try to enjoy the little moments... Her sleeping in your arms,
on your lap... They grow up so damn fast you wouldn't believe it!

Best of luck!

------
brudgers
When my wife was pregnant, I called my friend Greg - not for advice, though
his earlier lesson when I had to cancel something was "Repeat after me. I
don't know. I will have to ask my wife."

Anyway, Greg wasn't home, but I talked to Julie, this was some years ago. She
explained thus:

 _For the next year, you are number three. Baby is first. Mom is second. And
then you. Unless you have a dog. Then you are number four._

Right now, your beloved is not only lacking sleep. Her body also has a unique
hormone balance that does things like foster lactation. This is something you
experience, not run according to plan.

However, your experience at two months is not unusual. We had one similar. I
mentioned it to my neighbor Bill across the alley. Get a swing.

Not the bouncy seat. A swing. The one with the rigid arms that does nothing
but go back and forth - they come with motors. Bill gave me one that was wound
by hand. It was good enough.

Put your child in the swing and let 'er rip. Don't feel guilty. Get some
peace. Know that it only gets more wonderful over time.

Good Luck.

~~~
codegeek
oh yea. already got a swing and it is useful (not always but mostly). Baby is
responding well to the swing. we have alternatives as well. pretty much a
swing, secure sleeper, a different kind of sleeper with vibrations (dont even
know what it is called). Thx for the suggestions.

------
jtap
Yes those first two months suck and every child is different. One thing that
my wife and I did was that she would pump and go to bed at around 8/9 pm. I
would stay up with the baby monitor and the baby was my responsibility till
around 1am. If the baby got up I had to deal with it. I also gave our kid a
bit of formula as the last bottle before I went to bed. The rumors were true,
our child was fuller longer and slept longer. This gave my wife and I pretty
close to a full night sleep.

One more thing that people will tell you is that you need to put your child on
a schedule. Really, the child ends up making their own schedule, but you can
influence the schedule. In the evenings pick a time that you want your kid to
go to sleep, and don't let that kid out of his bedroom. Keep the lights dim
and don't offer up any stimuli other than basic soothing. Hum a lullaby,
really don't worry nobody can hear you. During the day don't let your child
nap for longer than 2 hours. Wake them up, feed them and play with them. Start
this two hour cycle every day at the same time, and don't let them sleep in.
If they sleep in and don't consistently wake up every two hours they will
never get on the day night sleep cycle.

We eventually got our child to sleep through the night. We put him down at 8pm
every day consistently and he would sleep till around 6:30am. This all will
take a bit of time, but wow is the whole family better. Well, until teething,
my child just turned 1 and he his next tooth coming in is a molar. This is a
whole other post.

One problem that we did have is pooping. That kid had the hardest time
pooping. When you rock your kid to bed don't rock them like you see in the
movies. Try a couple different positions. One that worked for us was holding
them like a (American) football with their head on the outside of your elbow,
and your arm and hand supporting their body.

All the books say to put your child on his back to sleep. Supposedly the
statistics say that your child is more at risk of sids if they sleep on their
stomach, but when we put our kid on his stomach there was a bit more pressure
applied to his stomach and that pressure seemed to help. If your child is
having a problem pooping say and I'll post more about it.

------
jones1618
Our experience was that the first 4 or 5 months is exactly like that. You
learn to cat nap, sleep and soothe the baby in short shifts. Think of it as
being in the military now. Dads (co-parenting ones anyway) need to expect to
be partial zombies at work for a while if they are giving Mom proper breaks at
night.

One mistake my niece made: While you are drilled about "breast milk is best"
until you feel like an abusive parent to think otherwise, sometimes babies
reject mother's milk. Talk to your pediatrician but formula might make it
easier on everyone.

I'm sure everyone has suggested the "What to expect..." books. They offer tons
of baby hacks that could make your nights easier.

Also, being exhausted and mad at the adorable screaming ball of primal needs
is normal (sometimes) but if it lapses into post-partum depression, that's a
serious thing that involves tsunamis of hormones and brain chemistry. You
can't expect to jolly her out of that and needs to brought to the attention of
a professional.

Hang in there. Our oldest had colic which required nearly round the clock
rocking but once we hardened ourselves to the daunting routine and got tuned
to what he wanted we were able to zombie-shuffle our way through.

~~~
codegeek
"adorable screaming ball of primal needs". You made me chuckle!! Thx for the
advice.

~~~
jones1618
You're welcome. I forgot to say that the best way (IMHO) to tell "baby blues"
from full-blown post-partum depression is sleep. After a weekend of you or
your family taking a lot of the night shift where your wife has gotten good
chunks of uninterrupted sleep, if she is still deeply blue with funk, anger or
depression it could be more serious. If not, she just needs more nighttime
breaks during the week.

------
notdonspaulding
Not that you need one more thing to do, but my wife and I (proud parents of 4,
with our youngest also 2 months old), have found this book to be very helpful
in learning how to guide a newborn into a good sleeping schedule.

[http://www.amazon.com/Becoming-Baby-Wise-Giving-
Nighttime/dp...](http://www.amazon.com/Becoming-Baby-Wise-Giving-
Nighttime/dp/1932740139)

If you just do one thing from that book, choose to regulate the
sleep/eat/awake cycle of your child.

And now some generic pointers you may have already heard:

\- Every child is different, but parenting approaches not so much. Pick an
approach that emphasizes the goals you want to achieve (regulate sleep,
minimize crying, parental free time, etc.) and _adapt it_ to your child in the
particulars (approach says feed every 3 hours, but Sally is hungry after 2.5).

\- Getting enough sleep is hard, but important, for both of you. If family can
watch the baby so one or both of you get naps, absolutely take advantage of
that.

\- Be patient with your spouse, assume her intentions are good and give her
the benefit of the doubt.

\- In a time when your wife is resentful of you, ask her directly if there's
anything you can do to alleviate some burden from her.

\- Parenting is a constant reminder that you don't know what you're doing, so
don't feel bad about that. Bill Watterson put it rather well in C&H:
[http://qph.is.quoracdn.net/main-
qimg-a0c61445794a690aa3a00f4...](http://qph.is.quoracdn.net/main-
qimg-a0c61445794a690aa3a00f49cbf88504)

\- It _does get easier_ , especially when the kid drops a middle-of-the-night
feeding.

Lastly, I just want to say that you aren't alone, our 7 week old is still up
every 3 hours through the night, and lately our oldest has been waking up at
4:30 (which does not coincide with a time that we're up with the youngest).
This has been the hardest lack of sleep to adjust to out of our 4 kids, and my
wife is exhausted. Still, we're as close as a couple as we've ever been, and
you only get that from doing whatever it takes to _survive_ the hard times
with someone else.

~~~
codegeek
First, you have my respect for raising 4 kids. I mean it in a good way :).
Some good advice there. Looking at the book for sure. I think like many others
are saying, the sleep cycle will get better but it is never too early to start
trying out techniques. For example, we are using crib, swing, secure sleeper
etc. to try and put her to sleep in addition to me walking her around on my
shoulders or sitting with her in our laps.

~~~
notdonspaulding
Every child adds a new dynamic to your life, and our lives are very dynamic at
this point ;-)

Two other things I want to mention:

\- Kids are incredibly resilient. They will not break even if you make
mistakes.

\- Crying and fussing is not always a sign that you need to do something.
Babies cry. If your child has a clean diaper, isn't hungry, and doesn't need
to burp, there's no harm done in letting them cry themselves to sleep in a
crib, in a room by themselves.

Many people nowadays, parents included, consider those to be very _harsh_
ideas. But really, it won't harm the child or you (physically, mentally,
emotionally) to let them cry themselves to sleep.

~~~
codegeek
I am very intrigued by the idea of "let them cry to sleep". I will talk to the
pediatrician about it but does this really work ? Also does it harm the baby
in any way ? Honestly, 2 mins of her crying makes us get up and take her in
our arms.

~~~
DanBC
You must not use controlled crying techniques until the child is at least 6
months old - that's about the age that children can cry voluntarily.

Before that point the only reason they cry is to tell you that they need
something. To stop them crying you have to address that need. They're either
hungry, or cold, or hot, or have trapped wind, or lonely.

There is plenty of conflicting research, but I chose to pick the research that
supports my point of view. (Which is all supporting 'attachment parenting'.)

When you do start the technique it is _NOT_ 'just leave them to cry'. The
child cries. You go in and calm her without taking her from the crib. You then
leave before she's gone back to sleep. If she cries you wait one minute, then
go back in and calm her, then leave again. If she cries you wait 2 minutes.
You repeat this, adding a minute on each time.

Sometimes she might not settle at all. You can stay in the room. Don't make
eye contact. Make loud sshhhsss noises. Pat her on the back. Don't take her
from the cot unless there's a need to.

It's important to set aside 2 weeks for this process. Usually it doesn't take
that long, most children settle in after 2 or 3 nights. But you must be
consistent.

~~~
notdonspaulding
I'd like to respectfully disagree.

> There is plenty of conflicting research, but I chose to pick the research
> that supports my point of view.

I'm in the same boat as you here, I've heard arguments from both sides, and
eventually you have to pick the one that "feels right". It's hardly a data-
driven decision.

> Before that point the only reason they cry is to tell you that they need
> something. To stop them crying you have to address that need. They're either
> hungry, or cold, or hot, or have trapped wind, or [are] lonely.

Or, again, you've set up their expectations about _what happens next_ and
they're letting you know they're ready for it.

> <snip self-soothing technique> > It's important to set aside 2 weeks for
> this process. Usually it doesn't take that long, most children settle in
> after 2 or 3 nights. But you must be consistent.

See, I don't think this whole technique is substantially different from doing
the same thing at 6 weeks. The reason "controlled crying" involves so much in-
and-out of the bedroom, is because you are _re-training_ the child's
expectations. You've spent 6 months telling the child "If you cry when you
don't need anything else, I'll pick you up" and so of course you have to ease
them into it, because it's an unexpected change of the routine.

The goal is the same, the result is the same, the effect on the child is the
same, the only difference is that Baby-wise says that a child of 6 weeks is
capable of learning how to sleep, whereas "controlled crying" is saying a
child must be 6 months.

------
tripthrow
Parent of triplets on a throwaway account here. Some of this may come across
as rude, sorry.

\- You have one baby, you truly don't know the meaning of stress.

\- Talk with and listen to other good parents at work/in your life.

\- The What To Expect... books were gold for us as first-time (x3) parents.

\- Your kid will be perfectly okay if they're on formula (but definitely give
as much breast milk as you can).

\- Alternate night-feeding duties between you and your wife. Then be glad you
don't have two hands and three babies to feed by yourself on that shift.

\- While doing all of this and the night shifts, I still had to work 40-50
hours a week at a job. I was mostly unproductive for 6 months.

\- _Man up_ and support your wife. All I hear is me, me, me. Your wife is
under way more stress than you and her body is still recovering
(physically/hormonally). Our situation was compounded by a serious episode of
post-partum depression. Fortunately, we got through that intact.

\- This time will be over quickly and some day you will actually look back and
miss it.

 _> Last night, my wife was almost yelling at the baby because she won't drink
the milk and it was really frustrating. This needs to change._

Try to be understanding of her stress and do anything you can to alleviate it.

 _> Our baby wakes up every 3 hours on average for milk and her mother is
pumping milk._

She can pump during the day and put the milk in the fridge.

 _> Our own relationship (wife and I) seems shaky suddenly and she has started
resenting me._

You need to communicate. You need to understand your wife is healing and under
the stress of much more responsibility than you. Try not to take the resenting
personally. Support her any way you can.

And yes, I learned all of this the hard way by making a lot of the above
mistakes.

------
SpikeDad
My best advice - get into a parents group. We formed our own group from the
parents attending the same childbirth class. Your local child development
council should be able to help you out if necessary.

It's VITAL to have a support system and to know that you're not the only
parents to have these feeling and issues. There is NO substitute for personal
interaction and commiseration. Even if you have parents and babysitters
available, you need people to validate the feeling you're having which are
normal and common.

The group we formed lasted for many years and was very helpful while raising
our 2 kids.

------
bird_in_hand
Because you're still working, you get 8-9 hours a day off from being
responsible for the immediate care of the baby. Your wife probably feels like
she gets zero hours off. Is she eager to get back to work or just to get out
of the house and get a few hours off? Could you work from home a few days a
week or drop down to 30 hours a week so she could have some time to feel like
a professional more than a mom? You're both really stressed and your lives
have changed a lot, but hers has changed more than yours, at least for now.
Can you leave the baby with her grandparents and go away for a weekend?

I agree that a bit of formula is going to be fine for the baby. The more
important thing is a happy, loving set of parents who aren't resentful of the
awesome thing they made. If the crying and not sleeping doesn't stop soon, it
could be attributable to an allergy or food sensitivity. Your wife can either
go on a super bland and shitty elimination diet, or you could talk to your
doctor and see if formula exists for super allergic kids and just try him on
that for a few weeks and see if it gets better. Food allergies are really
common nowadays, and it's an easy thing to fix.

------
oso2k
Getting a sleep pattern set is absolutely critical the first eight weeks. We
have an almost 3 year old (she) and a 9 month old (he). She was set at her 3rd
week and him at his 4th or 5th. Both were non-breastfeed but are months ahead
on all milestones. Declare a night time regime and follow it strictly. Say 9PM
is when you want them to sleep. At 8:30PM have a little one-on-one with the
baby. Change their diaper for the night, put on PJs or night gown, make their
bottle for the night. At 8 weeks they should be at 4 or more oz. We've had our
son at 6oz since about 3 months. Mix the breast milk with a scoop of rice-
based formula or even a baby rice cereal. The rice starches will naturally
take longer to digest, keeping your baby happier and fuller longer throughout
the night. Enfamil, Similac, and even store brands from Target, Walmart, and
Sam's Club work well. Talk to your doctor about setting a sleep pattern as
well.

------
Choronzon
Firstly is your wife pumping milk,why not let the baby breast-feed
directly?Its painful for awhile but will make your life a lot easier in the
long run as its vastly simpler than bottles.

Secondly why are both getting up?Its only one baby! It does not need two
adults to get up at the same time at night. Wife can feed the baby directly
every 3 hours,you sleep through most of the night.Your wife can also sleep
during the day as she as still at home and get help.

Babies sleep a lot and you cant set a schedule for a 2 month old so work
around her needs.When you get home your wife gets out for a walk for a bit and
then you can watch a movie together and relax when she is napping,do some non-
baby related things each day and realise as new parents you are definitely
worrying too much (we were the same on our first one).

Is she colicy? This could cause postpartum depression in your wife(and maybe
even you) quite easily.

------
DanBC
1) Lack of sleep is used as a form of torture in some countries. Your wife
needs to be able to sleep whenever the child is asleep.

2) Feeding is often something that people worry about. Check with a health
visitor / doctor; if the baby is thriving then everything is okay. Maybe try
different teats? Make sure the milk is the right temperature. Try different
chairs.

If none of that is working you could offer to do alternate nights for a week.
This allows her to get at least some rest.

Your wife needs support through the day. She needs to have time just for
herself, and time with friends, and time with friends and the child.

Post natal blues and post natal depression do happen and are normal, so
support your wife if she wants to get treatment.

Things do get a bit better when the child is sleeping longer. After about 6
months you can start techniques to help your child sleep through the night.

~~~
notdonspaulding
> Things do get a bit better when the child is sleeping longer. After about 6
> months you can start techniques to help your child sleep through the night.

With the caveat that every child is different, there's no reason to delay
"sleep-through-the-night techniques" until a child is 6 months old. We've
found that by explicitly managing the eating schedule of our children, they've
developed routines that get them sleeping through the night between 8 and 10
weeks.

Newborns are constantly adapting to the world around them. If __you __have a
routine in place, they'll figure out how to adapt to it, and that can
translate directly to more sleep for parents and happier parent <-> child
bonding times. If it didn't have such a huge impact on parental quality of
life, I'd say it doesn't matter how you approach getting them to sleep through
the night. But it _does_ have a huge impact, so it's foolish not to consider
that when determining your approach to raising a newborn.

~~~
DanBC
> With the caveat that every child is different, there's no reason to delay
> "sleep-through-the-night techniques" until a child is 6 months old.

I meant 'controlled crying' techniques, which must not be used before the
child is 6 months old.

~~~
notdonspaulding
Hadn't ever heard it called "controlled crying" before. It looks like this is
also called "self-soothing".

From reading the first few articles on a google search of the topic, this
looks very similar in nature to the Baby-wise technique of establishing a
routine which will cause the child to settle into a nighttime routine and let
them sleep through the night.

Why wait until the child is 6 months old? I didn't see any reasons given on
the (admittedly few) articles I read. Children crave routine, and ISTM that
the best time to establish one is as soon as the _parents_ are ready for it.

------
AlexLa
We are expecting our first baby in a couple of months too. So, no real
experience here but I want to share some info that I gathered from different
sources, in case it might be helpful.

If the baby cries at night and don't want to eat its a sign to look for
another reasons. There's non obvious one: gases in the tummy. They appear
because of an adrenalin which baby got with the milk. If mother is
angry/stressed an adrenalin goes into her blood and then into milk. The baby
eats, his tummy filles with gases, he cries, mother wakes up stressed and so
on... The way to get out of this loop is to decrease the amount of stress for
the mother. I know it's hard, because of harmones rage in her blood but you
need to be a psychologist here and try to calm he down.

Like they say, keep calm and carry on. It should get better in few weeks.

~~~
notdonspaulding
Congratulations! I hope everything goes well for you!

------
moocow01
It sounds like a major source of tension is breast feeding. Have you looked
into hiring a breast feeding coach?

Another note is that babies in my experience are oddly perceptive to the
parents being stressed out or tense (not in any sort of damaging way). Try to
do anything you guys possibly can to relax... massage, walks, whatever, etc
etc and you may find she feeds better and is generally easier on you guys.

Lastly your situation is more common than unique. At the worst you'll muddle
through it and look back and say thank god thats over. It feels like torture
now but you guys will be fine - every couple Ive known in your situation goes
through some form of this with a new child.

~~~
codegeek
The thing with breast feeding is that my wife is soon to go back to work and
she will have to pump anyway. So she chose to pump from the beginning (for
better or worse). I think I have to be more proactive to her needs and try and
do some things differently.

~~~
notdonspaulding
I understand the reasoning here, and the pump is a wonderful piece of
technology to make use of, but there's still something very _mechanical_ about
pumping. If it's an option, your wife may find it more relaxing to try
breastfeeding on occasion.

~~~
codegeek
totally agreed. she has actually started trying it lately but not 100%.

~~~
Tyrant505
I don't understand choosing the pump from the beginning... People choose that
as a solo option and not an additional means? Is it a nipple thing? | (sorry
if too personal, just hacking) Isn't it natural comfort for a woman to breast
feed? Brings the connection together? I do not know everything about brains
and emotion bit it kind of makes sense, just like making love to her.

------
acesubido
<http://www.dunstanbaby.com/>

The stress may come from the crying of your child. My older brother and his
wife had the same stress problems (don't know about the resentment part), but
mainly due to the fact that they couldn't understand what the baby wants from
his crying. The frustration of not being able to appease that cry can in fact
produce great stress, try the Baby Listener's advice. It worked for my brother
and his wife. Search for videos about it.

------
cafard
Infants wake when hungry, so duration of sleep begins as a function of stomach
capacity. Within a month your daughter should be sleeping six hours a night at
least.

Meanwhile, if your wife is expressing milk, you should share the small hours
duty: spell her for a couple of nights to let her make a dent in her sleep
deficit. (I confess that I did not, but I was not asked to.) And sometimes,
the infant just needs to be walked around for 10 or 15 minutes--you can do
that part.

------
shail
Warning: I have no experience with parenting.

In my opinion you need someone who has lot of experiencing taking care of a 2
month old and have them with you for few days so that you and your wife can
connect with each other and realize the beautiful phase you guys are going
through.

My guess is that both of you are overwhelmed right now which can always make
things seem worse than they are.

~~~
codegeek
I agree. I am trying to get one of our parents (from either side) to come and
stay with us for a couple of months. Thanks for the advice.

------
chsonnu
Are you breastfeeding or just pumping milk? The act of breastfeeding typically
soothes and knocks the baby right out.

------
notdonspaulding
All my advice in one word: <http://i.imgur.com/ectqP.gif>

------
logjam
Congratulations! But this _is_ a highly stressful time for parents. Be gentle
with each other (it sounds like you are doing that) - both of you are not
getting enough sleep, your bodies are still adapting, and you are learning a
ton of new things. Do not hesitate to ask family and friends for much more
help - this is a time to lean on those close to you, and you give them the
nice gift of allowing them to help.

This rough time will pass, most probably in a matter of a few more weeks. You
will increasingly be able to cope. Do keep consulting with your pediatrician
with _any_ questions - it's ok to ask as many questions as you have. None of
us are born knowing how to care for a new baby. If your baby's weight is on
target, don't worry so much about occasional feeding difficulties.

If you can afford, absolutely get someone to help with household tasks - the
cleaning, shopping, cooking. Talk to the people at work and rearrange some
things temporarily - most all of us understand the stress of a new baby - can
you shift your work hours? Can you work from home temporarily? Can you work
three or four days a week instead of five, etc? Can you take some paternity
leave?

Postpartum blues are common and will pass quickly, but have a low threshold
for either of you to get an evaluation from MD if depression develops. Keep
talking to friends and family and let people know what you're going through.

Humor is a strong and highly mature defense. If in 10 years you're going to
laugh about today's 4AM emergency diaper change, you might as well just start
laughing now.

~~~
codegeek
Thx. Tryhing a few of the options you mentioned. I totally know that we will
laugh it off very soon. Hoping for that.

