
Most “ugly” produce gets turned into soups, sauces, salsa, jam - apsec112
https://twitter.com/SarahTaber_bww/status/1086055092321697794
======
erikbe
This was actually (part of) MUJI's concept at launch. An example is selling
broken-off mushrooms:

"For example, there was a poster of dried shiitake mushrooms that were
slightly damaged during the production process. In the Japanese market, only
perfectly round shiitake were sold, but MUJI sold imperfectly shaped shiitake
because they taste just as delicious. In another poster, the copy reads “The
entire fish is salmon.” This is straightforward copy reminding readers that
salmon is delicious head to tail, so all of it should be eaten. Even as the
Japanese economy moved closer and closer toward an economic bubble, we had
positive feedback from so many consumers back then who wanted to focus on the
simple things in life."
[https://www.muji.com/us/flagship/huaihai755/archive/koike.ht...](https://www.muji.com/us/flagship/huaihai755/archive/koike.html)

It shows that you can package almost anything as long as you do it with
conceptual integrity. If you sell discounted goods, don't try to pass it off
as as good as something more expensive, because that is not credible or
interesting. Emphasize that it's less expensive, and why. When I google
"conceptual integrity" which is funny in a way because I'm not a developer,
and also interesting because it shows that many foundational ideas are cross-
disciplinary.

~~~
jolmg
> In another poster, the copy reads “The entire fish is salmon.” This is
> straightforward copy reminding readers that salmon is delicious head to
> tail, so all of it should be eaten.

I heard once that some steaks sold are actually separate pieces of meat glued
together and made to look like a natural steak. Maybe this happens with fish
as well. Wouldn't "the entire fish is salmon" be referring to that there's no
pieces of other fish glued to the fillet? I mean, perhaps there's a legal
technicality where it's permissible to sell a product as salmon when at least
10% is actual salmon or so.

It's kind of like how all those sweeteners sold as being stevia are actually
only like 1 or 2% stevia.

~~~
pkaye
> It's kind of like how all those sweeteners sold as being stevia are actually
> only like 1 or 2% stevia.

Sometimes they add filler to match the volume of sugar for equivalent
sweetness. This makes it easier to proportion out for baking and adding to
drinks. Otherwise the baking might be off or the drinks too sweet.

~~~
jolmg
If I remember right, from the time I took a look at them, some didn't even
have stevia at all. Their only relation was having a branding that made you
think of stevia.

------
benj111
I suppose theres another angle not mentioned here.

Currently fresh food buyers are basically subsidising processed food
manufacturers, making the former relatively more expensive compared to the
latter.

Any move to consume uglier foods would increase competition and prices at the
lower end, making fresh food relatively cheaper.

From a dietary point of view this is good, fresh food tends to be healthier
than processed.

~~~
gilrain
From a dietary point of view this is good, [assuming you can still afford to
eat].

~~~
benj111
I spent some time reasoning whether this would increase costs for those at the
very bottom.

I suppose it could, assuming they didn't buy mote fresh produce instead of
processed. But in Tha situation they either don't want to change their diet
(so its their choice?) or they already have an ideal diet, no processed food
to stop consuming. I'm not sure how big the latter population is though.

~~~
darkerside
Not everybody simply has the option (budget) to buy and eat healthier. I don't
totally disagree with your points, but there are tradeoffs here too.

~~~
benj111
I'm not convinced that fresh produce is more expensive than processed, or that
it necessarily takes longer. That is predicated on being able to cook, and
having some form of kitchen. But yes there are tradeoffs.

I hope we can all agree that everyone has a right to eat. But that people
don't have the right to eat steak every day. So somewhere in the middle there
is a diet that people have a right to. There's a tremendous grey area in
there, but I think its reasonable to expect people to prioritise a healthy
diet first, although again there is a limit to that.

I'm also not sure how far your line of reasoning is from objecting to taxes on
cigarettes or alcohol, on the basis it will hit less well off people hardest.
I don't want to deny poorer people nice things, but that shouldn't be carte
blanche to keep 'bad' things cheap.

Half the problem is that processed food encompasses coke, chocolate, cake as
well as frozen peas and baked beans. So we could just be talking past each
other here.

------
feross
> The "eat ugly fruit!" movement is classist as FUCK. You've got to have a
> debilitating level of ignorance to assume that if Whole Paycheck Market
> doesn't stock ugly fruit, it must be getting "wasted."

It is possible to not know much about the agricultural industry without being
"classist as fuck." There are an infinite number of things one can learn about
and a finite amount of time. While the content is interesting, I find the
condescending tone off-putting.

Are there advantages to this communication style that I'm missing?

~~~
dkarl
I think what this quote is responding to is people disseminating some first
world millennial's first uninformed guess about an issue as if were a
revolution and a blessing to the world, instead of stopping to think that
their precious intellectual virtues are not limited to people of their class,
education, and supposed intelligence.

The idea that our enlightened attitudes set us apart from the rest of unwashed
humanity is _our_ fake news -- the stuff we consume unreflectively because it
flatters us and plays nicely with our prejudices. Presented in a neutral
context, the idea that the agricultural industry was throwing away significant
quantities of produce because of aesthetic flaws would meet a lot of
skepticism. Presented in the context of _you are special because you
understand how wrong this practice is_ and _special people like us can help
save the world by fixing this problem_ the idea gets uncritically accepted and
widely shared on social media.

Calling people "classist as fuck" is designed to startle and threaten exactly
the people who tend to accept these narratives uncritically, and put them in a
frame of mind to consider that they might be wrong. Whatever the truth of the
issue is, we won't get there unless we stop seeing ourselves as the hero of
the story.

~~~
subjectsigma
>...and put them in a frame of mind to consider that they might be wrong.

You are entirely correct, but I think what GP is saying is that there's a very
specific kind of person who goes from being insulted on the Internet to open
to reflection and it's not most people.

~~~
dkarl
That's true when they're reacting to criticism from outside their tribe, but
"classist as fuck" (and the whole rest of the rant) sounds like it comes from
the same perspective that people were trying to inhabit by buying into the
"rescue ugly produce" story. This creates a "the calls are coming from inside
the house" moment that makes people nervous that they're on the wrong side of
the issue, so when the issue comes to their doorstep (somebody is marketing
some "ugly produce" product or service to them) they might look into the
specifics instead of blithely accepting it at face value.

------
legostormtroopr
This is a comment about the presentation of this content, but twitter threads
are the worst method for presenting a coherent and compelling argument. They
enforce unnatural character limits, lack formatting and links, and the whole
twitter echo system encourages "hot takes", eg. 'The "eat ugly fruit!"
movement is classist as FUCK'

~~~
schnevets
100% agreed. Dr. Taber's thread were a response to someone named Dr. Unicorn
linking a Guardian article in response to someone linking a thread of
"industry secrets".

It almost makes me grateful for the inevitable Vox story that just pulls
Taber's comments. At least that will be in a format that people can share.

------
klmr
> _Know what happens to most of the produce that 's edible, has enough shape
> to survive in transit, but looks funny?_

> _IT GOES TO THE GROCERY STORES THAT POOR PEOPLE SHOP AT_

So I shop a lot at “grocery stores that poor people shop at” (in Europe, for
what it’s worth; maybe the US is different). And the produce sold there is,
for the most part, _very_ different from the “ugly” fruit and veg that
sustainability hipsters are talking about.

Here’s what produce is sold at “poor people stores”: plasticky, perfect-
looking, and utterly tasteless. Yes, there’s a lot of waste because a lot of
it gets squashed and mouldy. But nobody is talking about selling that stuff
because it’s genuinely bad.

Some greengrocers do sell cheap “ugly” produce but the vast majority that
lands in discount super markets isn’t ugly, it’s just incredibly bad quality.

I don’t know what this means for her argument vs the food hipsters. But I find
her condescension towards people who don’t know how poor people shop, coupled
with apparent misinformation, extremely alienating.

~~~
aboutruby
Also oversized to compensate for the low price-per-kilogram

~~~
spiderfarmer
Supersizing produce for economic reasons is a myth.

Oversized fruits and vegetables mostly exist because they were "missed" during
the previous harvesting round. A cucumber that is ripe but isn't harvested
because it was hiding behind some leaves, will be oversized the next day. Same
goes for a lot of other produce.

Farmers receive the highest price for produce that's the "right" size. Other
sizes will be auctioned off with a lower quality rating and get a lower price
per kg. Also, the boxes are made for regular sizes and they can be packed more
efficiently.

If a supermarket sells inferior products for a higher price, it's because the
supermarket wants to do that and not because the other parts of the market
chain force them to.

~~~
alimbada
> _A cucumber that is ripe but isn 't harvested because it was hiding behind
> some leaves, will be oversized the next day._

A year ago I would've shrugged this off as an exaggeration, but after my wife
decided to grow cucumbers last summer I've seen first hand how fast those
things grow.

~~~
SketchySeaBeast
Feel lazy one day, wake up to little shop of horrors the next.

------
loosetypes
It's good that the less shopper-favorable produce is put to use, but I'm
always curious about the somewhat analogous-to-ugly-fruits case with milk:
Looking at the dairy fridge and choosing solely by expiration date.

Naturally, I choose the latest to expire to maximize my options within the
consumption time-frame. And I think everyone does?

But do you actually care about food waste if every time you make that decision
the earlier-stocked milks that are still around, and set to expire sooner, are
pretty much guaranteed to not be purchased?

I guess I have no idea of the scale here, or even how much is wasted. It just
seems like there would naturally be some sort of price-tiering of dairy
products based on expiry to incentivize what might be a better overall
consumption.

~~~
travisjungroth
I have never done this, and I gently suggest you stop. Do you really need
those extra few days of milk expiration? If the milk with the soonest
expiration date was the only one available, would you buy it or just walk out
without milk? A good rule to avoid tragedy of the commons situations is to
think “what if everyone did as I do?”. This is a pretty classic example here.

~~~
mijamo
Depends where you live and your household consumption . In Sweden milk expires
usually 3-7 days after you buy it. If you are alone and don't drink that much,
it does make a big difference buying the one that expires in 7 days vs the one
in 3-4 days (there is no discount except if it expires 1 day after purchasing)

~~~
oasisbob
Very true. The last milk I bought was Darigold here in the US, and the sell-by
date was sometime in March.

I don't know what they're doing to extend its shelf life so much, but as a
childless sometimes-uses-milk home, I love it, and couldn't care less about
the exact dates.

~~~
icebraining
Maybe you bought UHT milk? That has a shelf life of months.

~~~
oasisbob
Yup, learned something. thanks!

 _Ultra pasteurized simply means that the milk has been heated under pressure
at a higher temperature for a shorter period of time (280° for two seconds
versus 167° at 15 seconds for standard pasteurized)._

\- [http://www.darigold.com/faqs](http://www.darigold.com/faqs)

------
jacquesm
The ugliest fruits never make it to the market. Step-son of greengrocer here.
Really, the most clear example to me is the fact that perfectly good fruits
and vegetables get 'turned over' during harvest season because they do not
fetch the minimum amount and are turned into cattle feed.

~~~
kamaal
In India, it goes beyond that. Supply chains are extremely ineffective, and
farmers basically sell to middle men. Often these are sold in chain to several
other people before they go to the market.

Many times the farmers are given such a low ball offer, that is basically
expecting them to sell for loss. The farmer does the obvious. Takes their
produce, dump in a lake near by as garbage, because it often doesn't economic
make sense to take it back.

Sometimes its worse than that. They just take their lorry and drive over the
produce in the market and just take a bus back.

~~~
zeroname
> Many times the farmers are given such a low ball offer, that is basically
> expecting them to sell for loss. The farmer does the obvious. Takes their
> produce, dump in a lake near by as garbage, because it often doesn't
> economic make sense to take it back.

That doesn't make any economic sense either. How is "selling at a loss" (i.e.
taking in less money than it costs to produce) worse than dumping the produce
(taking in no money whatsoever)?

There has to be some other factor at play here.

~~~
selimthegrim
They don’t want a “kick me” sign on their back?

~~~
zeroname
I guess "spite" might be an underappreciated factor of real-world
(un-)economics.

------
mrob
>every once in a while you'll run into a variety of produce that only really
works for fresh & doesn't lend well to processing. This mostly happens w leafy
greens (we don't make … lettuce sauce)

I wish I could buy frozen lettuce. Lettuce can be cooked (e.g. for lettuce
soup), and cooked lettuce loses the crisp texture, so there's no drawback to
freezing it first. The idea that lettuce is only a salad vegetable is an
irrational tradition, like the idea that there are foods only suitable (or
unsuitable) for breakfast. I'd eat more lettuce if it wasn't so expensive
compared to frozen spinach.

~~~
jompe
In my experience, I've accidentally heated lettuce when making some kind of
salad which makes it really bitter. Because of that, I've thought of lettuce
as only fresh food. Is that not the case then?

~~~
mrob
Lettuce soup is traditional in some countries:

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lettuce_soup](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lettuce_soup)

I'm not sure if heating actually increases the bitterness of lettuce, or just
the perception of bitterness because the softer texture makes better contact
with your tongue. I personally am not very sensitive to bitter tastes, but if
you are, you could use a smaller portion. Easy portion control is another
advantage of frozen vegetables, because you don't have to worry about the
unused portion rotting.

------
bjowen
Welp that’s a rant. Here’s an example where integrated supply chains and
arbitrary supermarket standards cause eye-watering levels of waste:
[https://vimeo.com/223234033](https://vimeo.com/223234033)

~~~
zeroname
Actually it isn't. It's the same kind of poor research that the rant is about.
Those are cosmetic specifications for supermarket stock, nowhere does it say
what happens with the produce that doesn't meet them. It's simply insinuated
that it goes to waste, but that isn't true.

The supermarkets know very well what kind of produce doesn't sell, so these
specs actually _prevent waste_ , because unsold produce that is about to spoil
really _does go to waste_.

~~~
neRok
If you had watched the 2min video, you would have seen the bananas being
dumped in piles - a banana mountain. Here is an article on the same video:
[https://www.news.com.au/finance/business/retail/war-on-
waste...](https://www.news.com.au/finance/business/retail/war-on-waste-craig-
reucassel-reveals-the-shocking-truth-about-our-bananas/news-
story/ddd59b65712f4649fc74b3f803520776)

Other people and the original source mention food rotting because it cannot be
picked before it spoils, which is probably a problem. But in the case of these
bananas, they have been picked and made it all the way to a sorting facility,
and could be sent to somewhere for consumption. These bananas may be worse
than the ones that rot in the field, because they are responsible for
additional energy and labour expenditure.

~~~
zeroname
The post originally linked to a youtube video of that same guy sitting in
front of a laptop, researching specs. I did watch that one.

Again, even if those bananas see no other use than being dumped, that doesn’t
mean they would’ve been consumed by actual humans if it hadn’t been for those
standards. Some other organism will consume them instead.

------
heyjudy
One of my roommates in college was from Michoacan MX, and worked Washington
state, Oregon and California's Central Valley/Watsonville growing up. At fruit
stands this was standard practice.. inedible/bad fruit was tossed out but
damaged fruit went into pies, salads and other products because it wouldn't
sell as well, even 30-40 years ago.

The problem is manufacturers and retailers optimizing a deep supply-chain for
what's easiest and most consistent: picking fruit green so it lasts a long
time and doesn't get damaged.

There's a difficult-to-defend market for almost as beautiful but insanely
delicious produce that can shorten the supply-chain and deliver just-in-
time... hydroponics and gentler processing may help. How much would you pay
for an apple or tomato if it were 3-8x better than the generic produce aisle?
(People also want organic non-GMO if they're paying more.)

Finally, there's a good deal of issues around monoculture risks, especially
with cloned products like bananas, that already had to be reengineered once
and about to be tweaked again because of pest and disease evolution.

~~~
Gibbon1
Two data points I have. My mother ran accounting for canneries. Turns out
tomatoes that are too ripe for market get canned. Tomatoes that are too
damaged for canning become hog food.

And a friends mom worked as at a Potato processing factory, 6 million lbs of
potato's in, 4 million lbs of potato products out. 1 million lbs of hog food
out. The remainder is dirt and rocks. This factory had a machine to cut
damaged bits out of french fries with air knives.

I think the majority of waste is consumer side.

~~~
drewmol
"Unlike most kinds of canned produce, which pale in comparison to their fresh
counterparts, a great can of diced tomatoes offers flavor almost every bit as
intense as ripe, in-season fruit."[0]

Just thought I'd share that canned tomatoes are delicious, better than fresh
in many cases and cooks illustrated has some tremendous analysis on all
varieties of canned tomatoes.

[0][https://www.cooksillustrated.com/taste_tests/510-canned-
dice...](https://www.cooksillustrated.com/taste_tests/510-canned-diced-
tomatoes)

------
godelski
I seriously wish I knew how to buy B grade food. Slightly misshapen tomatoes
at a discounted price? Sign me up. I feel like I'm not the only one too.

~~~
nightfly
"Know what happens to most of the produce that's edible, has enough shape to
survive in transit, but looks funny? IT GOES TO THE GROCERY STORES THAT POOR
PEOPLE SHOP AT"

~~~
starpilot
Read: ethnic markets, 99 ranch, h-mart etc

~~~
woolvalley
Other candidates are foodmaxx and grocery outlet.

I've been to all of those places and other than the decor and maybe freshness
they didn't seem that misshapen or blemished to me.

------
pasta
In the Netherland, France, Belgium and other EU countries they started selling
ugly food again.

They are sold very cheap like 'outlaws' or expensive as 'real bio'.

What I understand is that we have 3 visual classes. Some in the third class
can be sold by law but as seller you have to check every peace. So it is more
easy to skip that class. And just to be save most supermarkets just skipped
the second class also.

------
Fricken
I saw this article about the ugly food getting thrown out from the BBC, citing
a study about food waste from the University of Edinburgh. So who am I to
believe? The University of Edinburgh or some Twitter ranter?

[https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-scotland-
business-45238...](https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-scotland-
business-45238732)

~~~
zenexer
On one hand, the BBC and most universities tend to be fairly reliable sources
of information. On the other, this Twitter user’s argument is fairly logical
and, despite the coarse wording, isn’t really making any extraordinary claims.
Her statements make sense and align with my own observations, as well as my
understanding of economics.

Is it possible they’re both right? These matters are rarely as simple as they
seem; it’s not inconceivable that there’s a fair amount of truth to both
sides, and I’m willing to bet they could find quite a bit of common ground.

~~~
Fricken
Her arguments are very reasonable and truthy sounding, I agree. The thing is
that the harder I try to get my story straight on food, the more convoluted
the story becomes, and this item is illustrative of that.

------
m_eiman
I didn't see any numbers anywhere, so I'll add this one: according to a recent
show on Swedish television, about 30% of all food produced is wasted somewhere
along the way to our mouths.

"Ugly fruit doesn't sell" is just one part of it, there's waste all along the
chain of production, and not least in the homes. Modern society tends to
interpret "best before" as "poison after", which leads to a lot of food being
needlessly thrown away.

According to the Swedish food agency (or something like that), the average
person in Sweden throws 19 kg of food in the thrash and pours 26 kg of food in
the sink every year.

~~~
hopler
That's 10% of consumption, a non-issue.

~~~
m_eiman
If we can reduce global CO2 emissions by 0.7% and methane emissions by 5% at
the cost of actually eating the food we buy (and also save money in the
process), I'd say that's pretty low hanging fruit in the efforts to reduce
global warning.

------
soared
[https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1086055092321697794.html](https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1086055092321697794.html)

------
lizzhale99
Naturally, I choose the latest to expire to maximize my options within the
consumption time-frame. And I think everyone does?

I have recently started to deliberately mix ages when I see a variation,
knowing that at least some of it will be consumed pretty soon and order will
be assured by the way I arrange out fridge contents. It feels unjustifiably
good.

Thanks [https://mytellthebell.com](https://mytellthebell.com)

------
warp_factor
I thought those sets of tweets interesting and would love to have the views of
other people in this field.

I have some friends in silicon valley that subscribed to this online delivery
service for ugly produce:
[https://www.imperfectproduce.com](https://www.imperfectproduce.com)

It looks to me like a mix of too much disposable income, and getting brag
rights at dinner party for virtue signaling.

~~~
Cthulhu_
Mostly virtue signaling, and a clever way for the producer / seller to
actually get more money for their produce than "nice looking" would - a LOT
more than if it were used in a factory product where it would normally end up
in.

------
tobyhinloopen
Let’s write an article about fruits and veggies, about 1000 words long (didn’t
count), and split it in short strings of max 280 characters.

Twitter is weird.

------
yitchelle
Can't help think that we are conditioned to think that ugly food is bad food.
The kids in my circle of friends, mine included, would not touch a banana that
has black spots on it or if the broccoli looks slightly off colour. Usually
they would grow out of this type of bias, but judging from the observations of
the general public, I am not so sure any more.

------
blauditore
To be honest, I believed the "ugly fruit get thrown away" narrative too. But
her explanation actually makes a lot of sense.

------
flyGuyOnTheSly
Our family has been loving No Name's "Naturally Imperfect" line recently. [0]

And from the looks of it's growth in Ontario grocery stores, the program is
doing quite well.

[0] [https://www.noname.ca/en_CA/naturally-
imperfect](https://www.noname.ca/en_CA/naturally-imperfect)

------
sureaboutthis
Even high end restaurants will take these things that are not presentable on a
plate and turn them into soups, sauces, etc. because any decent chef knows
that "dented cans" and ugly fruit taste the same as pretty ones. It's the
everyday routine.

------
Qub3d
Compiled Thread:
[https://threader.app/thread/1086055092321697794](https://threader.app/thread/1086055092321697794)

------
thoughtstheseus
There’s some interesting work on food, mainly produce, supply chain management
to more effectively prevent losses.

------
User23
Let's not forget the old favorite: burn it in an alembic and drink it!

------
a_c
The adage "don t want to see how sausage made" in full swing

------
bradknowles
Is there something wrong with that?

------
danaur
Twitter posts like these have an interesting bullet point writing style you
don't see in most places. I personally enjoy this style

~~~
smsm42
It would be much better as a once-piece article. I am still at loss at why
people use twitter to write long forms. I mean, you know it's going to be
long. Put it on Medium (or whatever, I don't care where it is) and if you need
Twitter audience, post a link.

Yes, I know threaders exist. But that's solving a problem that shouldn't have
existed at the first place.

OTOH, in my eyes, posts like that is pretty much the only redeeming feature
Twitter have left by now...

~~~
eridius
It's easy to retweet a thread, and to start reading a retweeted thread because
it's right there in Twitter. Reading an article from a tweeted link is a
bigger effort investment.

Also, Twitter threads lend itself to stream-of-consciousness style of writing.
Putting together an actual article will involve drafting and editing and be
more work.

~~~
int_19h
This is such a sad commentary on what the Internet has become.

~~~
hadlock
Agree

------
dkrich
Of course it ends with a link to her podcast

~~~
yitchelle
Does that really matter if you got value from the information presented?

