
Ask HN: How to move beyond “freelancer”? - ryannevius
I&#x27;ve been doing freelance web development for the past 7 years. I have consistent work and &quot;OK&quot; pay. I&#x27;ve experimented with my rates over time, and am at a point where I have trouble finding work if I raise them...but become part of the &quot;commodity freelancer market&quot; if I charge less.<p>Last year, I had a client (who had their own client...which we&#x27;ll call the &quot;true client&quot;) for a big project. At the beginning of the project, upon receiving my quote, my client told me that it was &quot;way above&quot; what the true client was willing to pay. I asked for more clear budget numbers, and was told very clearly that it was 60% of my original quote. After days of negotiations, I ended up reducing my quote considerably. Keep in mind, this did NOT involve me reducing my rate; I know better.<p>Part-way through the project, I found out that not only was my original quote under the true client&#x27;s budget, but my client had also quoted them a price which was 3 times my original quote amount. Not only that...but they had used my quote to create their own, and then proceeded to cut me down farther.<p>I felt undervalued and belittled by the news. I wasn&#x27;t upset about another company profiting off of me (of course that&#x27;s going to happen by default, if I&#x27;m working through an intermediary). Rather, I was really bothered by the nickel-and-diming and flat-out lies I was told about the project&#x27;s constraints and budget.<p>Since that time, I&#x27;ve paid closer attention to the companies I work with. They&#x27;re consistently profiting off of me at ridiculous rates; however, if I raise my rates to compensate, I don&#x27;t get work. I&#x27;ve tried to form my own &quot;digital agency&quot; with another partner...but we had a harder time finding work as a new agency than as freelancers.<p><i></i>TL;DR:<i></i> I&#x27;m tired of being nickel-and-dimed, and want to move beyond the &quot;freelancer&quot; title. How did you become the digital agency that you are today? How did you drop the &quot;freelancer&quot; title and make something more of your daily life?
======
exelius
Sorry to burst your bubble, but you're not a freelancer, you're a contract
developer. I make a lot of money off of guys like you, because I have
relationships with the guys who ultimately hire you. They're willing to pay me
$120/hr for a developer because they trust me to fix things if they get fucked
up. I pay a staffing firm $90/hr, and the staffing firm pays you $65/hr. You
get fucked over because you're playing the wrong game; clients don't pick up
the phone and call you because you do good work, they pick up the phone and
call you because they remember who you are and like you.

If you were really a "freelancer" or "consultant" instead of a contract
developer, you would have these relationships yourself. You would be able to
convince your clients to cut out the middleman and pay you $100/hr instead of
paying me $120/hr. But first, you have to build that trust with the people
ultimately paying for your services. This generally means upping your game
with respect to salesmanship, which isn't something you can "hack". It also
means turning down opportunities that may pay well, but don't offer any
opportunity for building relationships.

Again, that's the thread that's missing here: personal relationships. Get to
know your clients, understand what needs they have, and make them like you
enough as a person that they think "Hey, I need a developer. I wonder if
ryannevius is available?" You and your friend had a hard time starting an
agency because you don't have a pool of potential clients because you don't
have that symbolic rolodex of people you can call. You're selling professional
services, and professional services are sold through person-to-person
relationships.

~~~
bambax
The tone of this comment sounds a little aggressive, but, in my experience,
the following is the truest advice:

> _clients don 't pick up the phone and call you because you do good work,
> they pick up the phone and call you because they remember who you are and
> like you_

People want to work with people they like (and to like them they first need to
meet them).

They'd rather work with people they like, that do good work, than people they
like that do bad work, but given the choice, they will pick people they know
and like, that are mediocre, over "superstars" that they don't know and/or
don't like.

Which means

\- if you don't have direct access to the final ("real") customer, you're
mostly wasting your time

\- extra hours spent turning out stellar work would be a 1000 times more
productive/useful getting to know your clients on a personal basis

\- relationships with "customers" will only last as long as the people you're
interacting with stay at the company; when people change companies, it's
sometimes more effective to follow them to their new home than try to build a
new relationship with the new team at the old company

\- intermediaries are vampires; do not go near them. They fear light: expose
them and they will flee.

Good luck.

~~~
exelius
I didn't mean to come off as aggressive :) But the reality is that there is
way more money in knowing people than in doing work. The sooner in your career
you can make the transition from being someone who creates value by doing work
to someone who creates value by knowing people, the happier you will be and
the more control you will have over your destiny.

~~~
hoprocker
I like to think of myself as someone who takes pride in their craftsmanship
(whatever the craft may be); I'd imagine many developers feel similarly. As
such, this advice stings. But it really has the ring of one of life's "hard
truths", and so thanks for being direct (in both of your comments).

~~~
exelius
It shouldn't sting! Doing a good job is the first step in building a
relationship, so you should absolutely work hard and take pride in your work.
I'm only able to leverage my relationships to make easy money because my
clients trust the quality of my work (and I ensure the quality of the people
who are hired through me). Doing good work builds trust, but unfortunately
many people stop at that.

I'd recommend reading The Trusted Advisor [1]. It was originally written with
management consultants in mind, but it is a good guideline in general for how
to walk the line between personal and work relationships. Basically, you
should look at your clients as you would a friend: be their friend, know their
problems, and help them with those problems. Become invested in them and their
success, and they will invest in you. Business is ultimately about people, but
I feel many technical workers focus on the technology and get screwed over as
a result.

[1] [http://www.amazon.com/The-Trusted-Advisor-David-
Maister/dp/0...](http://www.amazon.com/The-Trusted-Advisor-David-
Maister/dp/0743212347)

~~~
hoprocker
Thanks for the recommendation! I'll be sure to check it out.

------
joliss
The most profitable advice I've gotten for charging good rates comes from two
sources:

1\. Jim Camp's negotiation book, "Start with No":
[http://www.amazon.com/Start-No-Negotiating-Tools-that-
ebook/...](http://www.amazon.com/Start-No-Negotiating-Tools-that-
ebook/dp/B003EY7JEE) One key takeaway: You can refuse to compromise on your
rates, provided that you can afford to walk away if necessary.

2\. Patrick McKenzie's (patio11's) advice for moving beyond the "freelancer"
title, in particular [http://www.kalzumeus.com/2011/10/28/dont-call-yourself-
a-pro...](http://www.kalzumeus.com/2011/10/28/dont-call-yourself-a-
programmer/) and [http://www.kalzumeus.com/2012/09/17/ramit-sethi-and-
patrick-...](http://www.kalzumeus.com/2012/09/17/ramit-sethi-and-patrick-
mckenzie-on-getting-your-first-consulting-client/)

I used these strategies to double my daily rate as an Ember.js consultant from
$1k to $2k, and it was a fairly straightforward exercise in the end.

~~~
hnnewguy
> _You can refuse to compromise on your rates, provided that you can afford to
> walk away if necessary._

This is very important advice, and I've applied it to car purchases, condo
lease agreements, cable and phone contracts, you name it.

It's about _leverage_. If you have alternatives, and what the person on the
other side of the table offers doesn't fit your needs, _take your business
elsewhere_. You have to be prepared to leave or say no.

On the other hand, if you can't say no, then you don't have any leverage.

~~~
davemel37
This is mostly true, but not entirely.

The key is the perception of the other party, not the actual reality of
whether you can say no or not.

Robert Ringer's amazing (and must read) book, "Winning Through Intimidation."
Talks about how he manufactured the perception of being able to walk away, and
why image and perception are more important than actual circumstances.

It's of course much simpler to play the part of being able to say no, when you
can actually walk away...but you can hack your own perception to believe you
can walk away even if you can't, and pull it off... or you can be a good actor
and take some risks...

Either way... The premise is true...but it's more about the story you are
selling than anything else.

~~~
bawigga
Would love to hear more about the book you mentioned "Winning Through
Intimidation". Just marked as to read on Goodreads. What'd you like about it?

~~~
davemel37
Where do I begin :)

My favorite quote from the book is...

"I didn't mean to cut off your hands, but I had no choice when you reached for
my chips." This is his argument for DEMANDING a contract for every business
deal, especially with friends or people you trust. (I admit I am not great at
this...)

He opens with a theory that most successful people who claim "hard work and a
positive attitude" drive success are lying. They are either too embarrassed to
admit how easy it was for them...or they can't see the forest from the trees
and really have no idea why they are successful.

He has a few key points that really stand out for me...

"The results you get from a negotiation are inversely proportionate to how
intimidated you are."

"With every deal...The key is to hope for a good result, but expect a negative
one. (otherwise you will get discouraged way too quickly and give up.)

Image is everything... "It’s Not What You Say Or Do That Counts, But What Your
Posture Is When You Say Or Do it."

I wrote a few blog posts over the years about his book...
[http://www.davidmelamed.com/2012/11/19/robert-ringers-
theory...](http://www.davidmelamed.com/2012/11/19/robert-ringers-theory-of-
intimidation-and-how-to-make-sure-you-end-up-on-the-winning-side-of-your-
negotiations/)

[http://www.davidmelamed.com/2012/11/20/i-really-didnt-
mean-t...](http://www.davidmelamed.com/2012/11/20/i-really-didnt-mean-to-cut-
off-your-hand-but-i-had-no-choice-when-you-reached-for-my-chips/)

Edit: I have a few extra copies. Would be happy to mail one to the first two
people who ask. Just find my email on my profile and email me.

~~~
mreiland
I'd love to read that book, but I'm not comfortable giving out an address.

Do you have a link to amazon? I'm willing to buy the book and give you a
little profit while doing so.

~~~
davemel37
You are better off finding a local goodwill or used book store. It was a very
popular book in the 70's and 80's...

~~~
mreiland
I was able to find a used copy published in 2013 on Amazon :)

------
pauletienney
I have been a web-dev freelancer for 5 years and is now building a small team
to make quality websites (mostly webtools).

Some random things I learnt from the transition :

\- The most interesting projects rarely (mostly never) relies on a one person
"team". Big projects are important for the customer and they need to know they
will have someone to contact even if it's holiday time. You want the true
customer to buy from you interesting projects : don't be alone.

\- Once you have a team, you will look for interesting projects. They are more
complicated to get. They often come from medium / large organization. Those
orgs. have important inertia. Projects can take weeks of month to start. Chase
multiple projects at the same time.

\- Once you have bigger project you must learn to make precise time
evaluation. It is really complicated. It must be done before the project is
sold but you must not spend too much time on it. It is key since you want to
earn money (no brainer) but mostly to have a smooth production calendar.

In my case, we are just a team of two. I spend half time in sales activities
and the other developing websites. My coworker is full time dev.

If you want to discuss in details, reply here or email me : paul@agence-
donatello.fr

Good luck ! There are freakingly high mountains of demands and needs outside.
You can take your piece.

~~~
mooreds
This is really interesting. So, you are basically saying if you want to work
on interesting projects, your options are:

    
    
       * join a team (as a contractor or as an employee, and take the rate cut)
       * build a team (and move from development to project management, at least part of the time)
       * become a 'name' in an area and become a true consultant--specialize, but don't pick the wrong area, or if you do, be prepared to switch gears.  (You didn't have this, but I've seen this work as well.)

~~~
pauletienney
Or be a contractor (in this case you _might_ only execute interesting
projects, not design/think them).

~~~
mooreds
Wouldn't it be more precise to day 'or be a subcontractor'?

------
davemel37
Seth Godin told me if you want to be a entrpreneuer, you need to hire others
to do EVERYTHING you can possibly outsource.

Otherwise you will hire the cheapest labor -which is yourself...and you'll
never break free of being a freelancer.

My personal advice...the reason raising your rates isn't working for you is
because "you don't get the work." This is key...if you need the work, you will
never successfully raise your rates.

I have fetched $350/hr for SEM consulting...when you can easily hire an
experienced pro for $50 and someone more experienced than me for $175. How do
I charge that much? It's simple. My opportunity cost let's me turn down lower
paying gigs.

The secret to winning a negotiation is going in believeing you can walk away
without feeling like you missed out. If you can walk away....you are in the
driver's seat.

~~~
knodi123
Or in other words,

"The power to destroy a thing is the absolute control over it."

    
    
       - Paul-Muad'Dib to the Guild navigators, at his confrontation with the Emperor Shaddam IV.

~~~
gesman
>> The secret to winning a negotiation is going in believeing you can walk
away without feeling like you missed out.

Well said and always works. In every business.

Car dealers would absolutely hate for people to know that.

~~~
Retra
People who know that probably don't walk into car dealerships...

~~~
teirce
Where would they go instead?

~~~
boomzilla
Do some research, make a short list of cars that you want (and can afford),
have some range of quotes from various websites (I used to check truecar and
KBB, not sure if it's still a good source). Then make a few phone calls to the
dealers, press for prices (with the exact base model and add-ons you need).
Any dealer who doesn't want to give a quote, you can walk away, or rather, end
the phone call.

A few years back, it took me half a day researching and half a day visiting
two dealers to get the car I wanted, at a reasonable price: I think it was in
the 90% percentile cheaper in true car's range, even though I bought my car in
SF bay area, which is supposedly more expensive than the average price.

~~~
exelius
It's not hard to find auto wholesale prices online. Most dealers these days
you can call up and say, "hey, I know your wholesale price on this car is $x,
can you give me the car for $100 more than that?" They're pretty used to this
anymore; they don't expect to make anything on "internet orders". If nothing
else, it adds revenue and sales volume to their aggregate numbers.

~~~
boomzilla
One of the people in the car dealing industry I talked to recently told me
that the business model now is not based on selling new cars, but to sell
services/insurances and a bit from used cars. This makes total sense because
they got the first placement for the services, and people are probably not as
prepared with service/insurance quotes compared with new car price quotes :)
Maybe this is also why Tesla gets a hard time with the auto dealers when they
want to do after sale services too.

------
oisino
I did this successfully with my agency
[http://bootstrapheroes.com/](http://bootstrapheroes.com/)
[https://experts.shopify.com/socialproof-
it](https://experts.shopify.com/socialproof-it) we grew from a team of two to
10+. The biggest lesson I learned is if you want to create an agency you need
to become one of the top experts in a specific area that is relatively new and
growing like crazy. In new areas their is no experts so very easy in the
beginning to become one or fake it until you are one. For me it was becoming
one of the top Shopify app development experts. If I had tried to start an
agency in a mature market like development for Magento/ Drupal sites I would
have had a way harder time for their is lots of agencies with great track
records in these areas.

------
cheetos
I freelanced full-time for several years. I had similar experiences.

I found that the key was to find clients who value your work. Working with
individuals or small businesses can be tough because they are usually highly
constrained by budget and do not understand everything that goes in to what
you do. They want freelancers because they can't afford full time people. They
will compare you to the rates they can find on Craigslist or Elance and balk
when you require market rates.

Instead, find startups with technical people doing the recruiting or large
companies with established roles and processes for freelancers. They will at
least understand market rates and what you actually do.

You also need to have the power to say no to clients. That usually means
savings and the willingness to wait long periods between jobs in order to find
the right one. For me, the hit rate of was 1 out of every 8-10 job
opportunities.

~~~
31reasons
If you wait long periods of time, does that not reduce your overall hourly
rate? Because if you are doing nothing your hourly rate is $0. With such a
strategy can you make as much as someone who is full time employee or someone
who charges much less but who is filling most of his/her hours?

~~~
tptacek
Do not bill hourly. Bill daily.

~~~
stevesunderland
Do not bill daily. Bill per project.

~~~
stefantalpalaru
Only if you never learned the lesson of feature creep on a fixed budget
project. Always put a limit on the time you spend.

~~~
stevesunderland
Of course! The great thing about project-based billing (in my opinion) is that
it forces you (and your client) to come up with clear requirements at the
beginning of the project, and anything extra is an additional scope of work.
Of course if the requirements are unclear, hourly would be a better option.

------
patio11
My favorite post on HN:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4245960#up_4247615](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4245960#up_4247615)

~~~
hoboon
I like tptacek's list but I'm wondering about how to get clients.

tirrellp makes a good point, though. I guess that's how?

~~~
meric
Here's how I got my first clients:

1\. At university there was a billboard for people looking for developers.

2\. Responded to everyone, with a ridiculously low price of $25.

3\. Completed first job with flying colors. Collect glowing reference.

4\. Stitch up reference on to personal website.

5\. Hike price by 50%, find next client.

6\. Rinse and repeat.

I got up to $100 per hour for some clients[1], or $450 per day for other
clients, before I finally found a full time developer job.

I'm glad I did this freelancing thing because my company knows I can walk any
time and make 6-figures on my own.

I still get pinged by my former clients about new projects and refer them to
friends.

[1] (I was offered $115 one time but I felt that was too much of a raise - I
priced myself at the highest possible rate where I am certain I will receive a
glowing reference. And glowing references means raises.)

P.S. I read patio11 and tptacek's advice at the time it was very useful.

~~~
dennisgorelik
Why did you switch to full time job if you were successful as a consultant?

~~~
meric
I haven't tried being a full time developer.

As a consultant it's rare I had engagements lasting more than a couple of
months. At a company there's more of a "narrative". It's like reading short
stories vs reading a novel, both are good at various times.

------
at-fates-hands
Here's some solid advice which I used to make the transfer myself.

First of all, pick a niche industry and own it. Too many agencies I see are
just out to make money by developing as many apps and sites as possible. This
means a lot of cold calling into different industries and talking to a lot of
different people with different needs. If you stick with one industry, pretty
soon, you'll find areas where you can really start to focus. This in turn
makes you valuable to not only business, but then your name starts to get
passed around since you have specific ways you're helping other people in that
industry. Less cold calling and more referrals is what follows then. I would
also start locally, get as many customers in your local niche then broaden
out, go regional, then national.

Secondly, the one thing that has made my agency successful is minimizing
overhead. It's basically me and my partner. We work from our homes, but are in
constant contact with each other (technology is great ain't it?). This means,
no employees to pay, no office rent, no heating bills, no additional hardware
or furniture. It allows us to keep our rates fairly low and still have a very
nice profit margin since we have so little upfront costs. This also benefits
our clients since it saves them money too.

Lastly, I use a progressive billing system. I start out working with my
clients on an hourly rate - mainly doing consultation work. Then once we start
having steady work, I go to them and say, "Hey, you're paying a lot for my
hourly rate since and we're always doing work for you, why don't we just set
up a monthly total (a 5-8% discount off my hourly rate) with a minimum of
hours I need to work for your company each month and go from there?" 90% of
our clients have switched over to a monthly or yearly billing subscription.
This is a biggie since you don't have to worry so much about where your next
project is coming from, you can really focus on your clients and know you have
a steady stream of revenue coming in. This also allows you to continue to cold
call and bring in new business - makes a huge difference compared to working
project to project.

Hope this helps!

------
davismwfl
Most people run into this at some point. Many times a business will try and
take advantage of freelancers and beat you down on rate because "some guy" is
50% cheaper or whatever. You have to learn to walk away from these deals, that
is part of what changes you from freelancer to consultant. A consultant knows
to walk away from these deals or arguments because you cannot win in a race to
the bottom. Not that being a consultant is better than being a freelancer, I
just feel it is a mental shift in how you approach deals and set them up.

People have suggested building our own product. That is all well and good, and
honestly at some point you will want to stop selling your time because your
time is finite and can't be scaled. That's when product development becomes
more attractive. But if you are still having fun writing other peoples stuff
and just want to get out of a rut and increase your rate then you can do that.

Pricing is a skill, we charge weekly rates (based on 32hrs) per person and
honestly most clients equate that to an hourly rate in the end. We also set a
minimum charge for all projects and bill based upon value delivered instead of
hours when appropriate, for example, we just picked up a small project < 1
week in duration where we charged $7k. Every time a potential client starts
trying to negotiate our rate down, I move the conversation to value and most
of the time I can win solid deals and I don't negotiate my rate down. I have
in the past, but once someone knows you will negotiate your rate, they will
always go for more and you end up in a death spin to the bottom.

------
slamus
Nice thread there since I'm pretty new in Web Dev+Design freelancing (2y part-
time, 7m full-time), but I think I've got in touch with a hint of an answer
few days ago.

Someone came to me 2 weeks ago with a clear idea of copying a website, because
her business was in the same market. We finally met 3 days ago about her
project, and she told me she has seen 5 freelancers and 2 agencies for her
website, but she still wanted to speak with me because she wasn't decided yet.

The first thing I asked her was: "Can you explain me about your business ? And
what process the customer is going through ?". Then we went through a pleasant
hour-long brainstorming phase, until she realized her point was totally
different from the existing website she wanted to copy, and that we ended up
with a way better and more suited solution for her. She surpisingly said :
"You're the only one that asked me those things, and I loved it!".

Then I asked her how it went with those 7 other clients and she told me nobody
cared about her business, and how they only seemed to want to get the
contract, at any price. Even though some of them looked professionals, she
wasn't sold.

After this meeting, I understood that a freelancer shouldn't be positioned as
an "expert" sitting at the opposite of his client, but as someone sitting
alongside his client, as a friend caring about their goals. When you're the
right person, your time is invaluable, and your price will be the right one.

In conclusion, there is a lot of bad freelancers out there. Just be nice, get
close to your client by genuinely caring about their problem, be honest , and
you will build a strong network that will like you, trust you, and pay you
well.

------
WhitneyLand
How much of a commodity is your work? Are you doing work that most web devs
could do? For example vanilla PHP is easier to find than a cutting edge SPA
developer who knows the latest frameworks, architecting important services,
etc.

How good are your communication skills? In consulting/freelance/contract this
is huge. You will never be able to charge as much as someone who has great
rapport with the customer, articulates points in a clear way, and shows
understanding of the big picture goals.

How big are the companies you work with? As a rule of thumb small companies
are not usually paying the highest rates. Small companies have more
interesting work, but pick your poison.

What percentile are you capabilities in? This requires some brutal self
honesty but usually it's harder to get top rates if you are not at the top of
your field.

Do you try to work remote? Jobs usually pay more if you are willing to stay on
site most of the time. Hate this but it's true.

Do you have an impressive portfolio of work to show? When people see it do
they "ok, thanks", or do they say "wow that's really cool"?

The good news is you can change and improve everything on this list.

------
rday
It sounds like you are a successful freelancer. What you are trying to become
is a successful business owner.

You need to hire a couple people to write code, and start selling full time.
This is where things get hard. I haven't made it work correctly yet either.
Good luck!

~~~
davemel37
This is the reason the EMyth was written - to help freelancers become
entrepreneurs. Read it if you have the time.

~~~
rday
Is this emyth.com? Or the book on Amazon, or is there a relation between the
two?

Edit: Wow. In the small sample on Audible this guy already mentions something
I've seen over and over with the clients I work with.

When you start your company you go from employee to business owner. But your
mind stays in employee mode. You keep doing your job just like an employee.
You get over worked (those 80 hour weeks) and never thrive.

Everything you do needs to involve building a process to hand off to someone
else. Otherwise you are simply substituting a 40 hour work week for an 80 hour
work week.

~~~
jseliger
_Everything you do needs to involve building a process to hand off to someone
else_

Derek Sivers also discusses this issue in _Anything You Want_
([http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1936719118](http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1936719118)),
which one of my favorite books, ever, and highly recommended.

------
zkhalique
It's all about relationships and the client's experience. If it helps, think
of the clients as users of an app, who go through an onboarding process. How
do they discover the app? What do they associate with the brand? What steps do
they go through and what is the conversion rate on the "funnel"?

You simply build your brand, including a website, a blog and attract people to
it. Get known widely (by having content that people share) and deeply (through
good work and referrals). This takes time to build. But it's like any other
brand.

Basically, you need a brand, and cultivate relationships. Probably the best
two pieces of advice I can give you are:

1) Make it safe to fail, so you can iterate and try better things. For
example, have 100 users and only try a particular pricing or offer with 5 of
them. A/B test various website designs, email marketing strategies, etc.
Partner with one or more business developers who are passionate about client
relations, and give them % of PROJECTS, not the company. This way, if anything
fails, it doesn't bring down the whole thing. And you can do this "all day"
because your expected value is always nonzero, so the more you do it, the more
you get. You can even hire others to do your job for you - again, on
commission. Like 2 levels of MLM.

2) Establish relationships before you need them. Network, and let people know
what you need without pushing them. Over time when you really need something,
you do 90% of the work (set up the whole experience etc) and let them know how
they can be of help by doing only 10% of the work. Something simple and well-
defined that starts off your onboarding process. Inbound leads basically, and
"warm introductions".

------
einarvollset
To get more in depth than patio11's link below, I would recommend looking at
Brennan Dunn's courses (the free one is great to get started), and at the risk
of being accused of self promotion: sign up to my course at:
productizedconsulting.com (free and my own service was inspired by Patrick and
Brennan's workshop a while back)

The TLDR is: package a small part of your expertise as a product, and sell it
as a SaaS. Having dependable recurring revenue is a game changer.

~~~
cscharenberg
Thanks for the suggestions - I signed up for Brennan course and yours. I am on
the "interested but not ready" side of consulting and want to learn as much as
possible before jumping in. Looking forward to your course!

~~~
einarvollset
Thank you - hope the course helps you. The reframing into product focus has
been a life changer for me. (And I say that as a YC alumni)

------
BuckRogers
"but my client had also quoted them a price which was 3 times my original
quote amount."

There's your answer. You just found your new rates. Get a part-time dev job if
you lose work for a while, to keep the lights on. Stick to that 3X amount and
don't waver. Profit.

------
getdavidhiggins
I wrote about how I stopped freelancing and joined an agency. If you can't
setup your own one (for whatever reason), then it's worth looking around for
existing agencies who have established themselves and know all the ropes.
Here's my post: [http://blog.higg.im/2014/12/06/freelancing-financial-
freedom...](http://blog.higg.im/2014/12/06/freelancing-financial-freedom/)

My post was inspired by a great book called "stop thinking like a freelancer".
It's a good read ― [http://myshar.es/freelancer-
book](http://myshar.es/freelancer-book)

------
gk1
You can consider becoming a consultant. See "Don't Call Yourself a
Programmer"[0] by Patrick McKenzie. Also see the link he posted to another
thread.[1]

You're being nickel-and-dimed because you don't value yourself enough. Stop
charging hourly rates and stop working for middlemen.

[0] [http://www.kalzumeus.com/2011/10/28/dont-call-yourself-a-
pro...](http://www.kalzumeus.com/2011/10/28/dont-call-yourself-a-programmer/)

[1]
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4245960#up_4247615](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4245960#up_4247615)

------
mgkimsal
Finding direct clients/projects/work is the harder work, and as such, you'll
make more when people come to you directly, but you'll need to spend time
actually making connections and selling (vs being sold).

What are you doing to find work directly?

~~~
hoboon
I'm not OP but how do you find work/clients/projects? I saw a posting earlier
that had some suggestions.

~~~
mgkimsal
Nearly all networking and word-of-mouth. Sounds trite, but... some
suggestions:

1\. Go to technical meetup/groups relating to technology you're interested in.
Get known in that community.

2\. Go to technical meetup/groups relating to technology you're _NOT_
interested in. Get known in the community. With PHP and Java skills, I go to
the .NET group a few times a year. When some of those folks I network with
need PHP, I'm the first (and sometimes only) person they think of.

3\. Go to industry group meetings that relate to a particular industry you
want to serve - education, govt, manufacturing, retail, etc. Learn who's doing
what, what their terms are, etc. Start making connections there.

4\. Go out of your way to connect people in your existing network who you
think might be able to benefit each other. Invite them for a mutual coffee,
make introductions. See what happens.

5\. If there's not any sort of meetup in your area that doesn't cater to your
interests, start one, and publicize it. If it's successful, you'll be one of
the 'go to' folks for that topic in your area.

There are many other steps and paths to follow; this is just one I point out
to people.

For me and most of the folks I know this isn't a fast process, but it does
have payoffs over the long haul.

~~~
hoboon
These are very good points. It's what I tried but it seems like I never met
anyone. Just keep at it, I guess.

~~~
mgkimsal
It's partially a function of geography though - not every area is as amenable
to this approach as others. And you may need to change approach if this really
isn't working. If it's working for others in your area, and not you, it's
probably something in what you're doing (or not doing). If no one is having
success in your area, it's likely more geographic area.

Happy to take this offline at mgkimsal@gmail.com if you or others want to dig
a bit deeper.

------
jakejake
There are a lot of ways to do it as proved by the comments here. My personal
move from freelancer to "company" was a slow transition that involved moving
away from clients that nickel-n-dime and moving towards those who do not.

For me, life did not really get easier until I had a roster of clients that
wanted repeat work - either as a formal retainer, or just a somewhat regular
billing amount each month.

Rate hike was one technique which rid me of a client that was too much hassle,
but as you know it takes a lot of guts to let go of a paying customer. You
claim that raising your rates led to losing work. You do lose clients when you
raise rates, that is the point. You don't want to employ this strategy if you
have zero clients who are willing to stick around at the higher rate.

Another is actively seeking out your own clients to cut out the middle-man. I
found my sweet spot with small (10-50) companies who did not have full-time
programmers on staff and were located in my area. It took me about five years
of actively seeking clients and word-of-mouth to get a decent business going.

------
ghufran_syed
I would strongly recommend reading the following book:
[http://www.amazon.com/Go-Alone-Streetwise-Secrets-
Employment...](http://www.amazon.com/Go-Alone-Streetwise-Secrets-Employment-
ebook/dp/B005CCUGDM/?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1427731688) It's very clear and
accessible, and is aimed at people with domain knowledge but not business
knowledge and experience. It's consistent with the excellent advice offered by
others in this thread, in book length.

I'm getting my cofounders to read it now, I first read it 12 years ago, and I
still think it's the single best introduction to business and sales skills
I've seen, despite having read a LOT of such books before, during and since my
MBA. Good luck with the business!

------
opless
I left "freelancing" to do "Contracting" as I was in a similar position.

Alas this also means that I often need to actually turn up to the clients
office.

Working though an agency has similar issues, as you describe, but let's face
it - no-one likes paying their bills or pay the full whack for stuff.

It's just the cost of doing business.

The only way (that I can see) to totally escape is to actually make something
other people will want to buy and sell direct.

~~~
gk1
> The only way (that I can see) to totally escape is to actually make
> something other people will want to buy and sell direct.

There are many consultants (myself included) who make a living consulting,
have fantastic clients, work remotely, and are able to deliver massive value
to those clients without having to work through middle-men.

~~~
opless
My comment was rather negative, and I agree it's possible, personally I try to
keep to a few small but busy clients and avoid agents when I can.

However when you're having a bad period, or just get tired of it all, the
temptation to pack up and do something else can be very tempting :)

------
ghufran_syed
It's also worth quoting the famous business aphorism: "Production - Sales =
Scrap"

In your case, production is worth 3 times what you quoted the middleman
(because the end customer was willing to pay it), what you got was scrap
value, and the difference between your price and the end-customer price is the
value the middleman created by selling well. TL;DR: Learn to sell!!! :-)

------
danschumann
Don't you have a considerable portfolio and work history? Even if you went
through an intermediary before, you should be able to prove you did the work,
right? Whatever your weaknesses are, play them out as strengths.

If you don't have a huge history as a 'company', that's not a weakness,
because you can pay more attention to each new client you get.

------
ffn
My personal trick was to move the hell out of SF and the Bay Area (this could
be generalized to out of any large concentrated hub of people who also do the
same thing as you). If you're not dealing with tons of other engineers who
need odds and ends like dev tools, integration testing, api adapters, and
other such things that will never see the light of the outside world, you can
get much "better" terms on your projects. For example, if your client is a
starving country musician in backwater Louisiana, you can build his entire
website for him and charge him a portion of whatever album sales happen
through his website. This means a lot less upfront $$, a little more risk, but
generally much more stable long term pay-offs because you've aligned your
mutual incentives.

------
namuol
1\. Meet and befriend more freelancers of similar caliber and complementary
skillsets.

2\. Help each other find new clients and pool your incoming work.

3\. Hire subcontractors for the little stuff that piles up.

4\. Slowly back away from the less interesting stuff, and take on the most-
interesting/high-paying/high-responsibility jobs.

------
JSeymourATL
This post has received several excellent tips and reading suggestions already.

If you're looking to up your game from Freelancer/Contractor, you'll do well
to read Alan Weiss, The Guru of building a successful consulting business >
[http://www.amazon.com/Million-Dollar-Consulting-Alan-
Weiss/d...](http://www.amazon.com/Million-Dollar-Consulting-Alan-
Weiss/dp/0071622101/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1427816142&sr=1-1&keywords=weiss+million+dollar+consulting)

------
homakov
Maybe in webdev it is different but my story is simple - offer clients
something they cannot get anywhere else. I offer rails security audit and
charge minimum 375 per hour, but usually around 500.

Bugs I find can save clients millions. Others firms in the industry charge
200-250 but I truly don't care - they don't have what we have. Find your
niche.

Oh, and marketing of course. I had plain text website but new version gets
better conversion see sakurity.com

------
driverdan
Stop working for agencies and work with the end clients. You'll have to work
harder to find clients but you will be valued and will make more money.

------
jseliger
I'm coming at this question from the other side, as a person who has hired web
developers, and orthogonally, as a person who also works in a small consulting
business.

1\. Word-of-mouth.

2\. I do grant writing for nonprofit and public agencies, and we occasionally
get pitches for the "true client," and we always tell the would-be middlemen
to just send the true client to us. This almost never happens, and in reality
there is rarely a true client, and even if there is the middleman won't pay
our rate because we're already near the top of the market (see point 4).

3\. You might not be able to move beyond "freelancer" without getting a
conventional job or starting a startup.

4\. If you can't find a way to charge more you may have found the market rate
for what you're doing and who you're doing it for. In my consulting firm
~$200/hour is the top market rate. We can't functionally charge more.

5\. I don't want to be a jerk, but I wonder how your sales and marketing
skills rank. I wrote more about that issue here:
[http://jakeseliger.com/2014/04/07/how-i-learned-about-
assert...](http://jakeseliger.com/2014/04/07/how-i-learned-about-
assertiveness-and-reality-from-being-a-consultant). In many small consulting
firms, sales and marketing are at least as important as product. Have you
thought about hiring a business or voice coach? What's your sales funnel like?

I do know that we're in the process of hiring a firm to re-do our website, and
we found a couple through
[http://wpengine.com/partners/](http://wpengine.com/partners/) and one through
our ISP. One guy we sent an email to, and he said he didn't talk on the phone.
Not surprisingly he's off the list: If he's that uninterested or busy _before_
we send him a lot of money, what's he going to be like _after_?. We found an
outfit named Orange Blossom:
[http://orangeblossommedia.com/](http://orangeblossommedia.com/) that has an
impressive portfolio, and they seemed to understand the non-standard stuff we
needed. CohoWeb: [http://cohoweb.com/](http://cohoweb.com/) is another
favorite, and they came through our ISP. In both cases their sales guys were
efficient.

Clients often have a hard time evaluating consultants. That's one reason we've
been writing a blog for the last seven years: We're professional writers, and
the blog does at least show that we can write, and it also attracts a lot of
potential clients via search traffic. How are your clients finding you?

If your sales and marketing are not very hot—and I'm not saying that, but I am
saying it's possible—you may want to consider trying to work for Orange
Blossom or someone else on the WP-Engine list.

------
scottmcleod
Do good work. Over, and over, and over (referrals).

Know your worth. Be increasing your rates ever 6-12 months based on how much
learning you've accomplished.

You're a consultant, not a freelancer. You want to be paid for your deep
expertise and experience, not just your ability execute code/pixels/words etc.

------
mati
Care to share your email in your profile? Would love to follow up with you as
I am looking into the same problem as well.

------
chocksy
It's hard to build a team. We are working on that for 3 years now. Since we
are in a developing country clients expect lower rates.

But you have to stick to your rates no matter what. Usually the good clients
come once you can provide good quality work. Word of mouth is much powerful
that anything.

------
gesman
Freelancing is very competitive with lots of supply. Hence struggles with
rates.

Build and sell your own product or service. This also will carry way higher
residual value than hit-and-run freelancing gigs.

------
Mandatum
You've been doing web development for 7 years and you're not familiar with
this practice?

Get involved in a business before you try to start a consultancy/agency.

------
Uninex
Don't sacrifice quality for nothing!

------
nedwin
Check out doubleyourfreelancingrate.com.

------
Uninex
Everyone is finding ways to save money!

------
nickraushenbush
It sounds like you want to create a company (digital agency) as opposed to a
sole proprietorship (freelancer). This doesn't mean that you need to start a
huge company, but it does mean that you need more infrastructure.
Infrastructure will give you more leverage.

I founded Glass & Marker (www.glassandmarker.com) with 2 creative directors
who were tired of being paid low freelance rates, and working at big agencies
who stepped on their ideas. Today, we've been in business 4 years, and we have
a strong portfolio of tech clients (including over a dozen YC alum
companies!), and a much larger team. I helped my partners by building business
infrastructure; a strong and profitable vehicle to make content for our
clients.

My business partners and I complimented each other because they wanted someone
to run the agency who knew how to (1) generate new business (2) negotiate (3)
ride the delicate balance of client management and enforcing the rules of the
SOW (4) manage employees and (5) identify new areas for growth and scalability
(expanding services, hiring, pricing, etc.).

My advice would be to find your business counterpart. Let him or her handle
all money, contracts, difficult client scenarios, and all of the other stuff
that aren't interested in. You have much better things to do with your time
and your talents. In looking for a business partner, I recommend identifying a
candidate with these characteristics:

-Transparency/Honesty: Clearly you don't like it when you have a client who is shielding the truth from you. 3x markup on your work is too much, especially if they are getting that while asking you to drive their price down (if you got to name your ideal price, it doesn't matter if they made 10X). Find a partner who speaks truthfully and doesn't mind pulling back the curtain on finances, even in front of client. I do this, and it has always been appreciated.

-Confidence: Your work is valuable. You want someone who understands that, and isn't going to wimp in the negotiation with the client. Sales hungry leaders often short themselves because they can't play chicken with the client. Get someone who will hold their ground in the sale. Ditto on revisions. Not that you want someone who is keen on conflict, but don't get someone who is conflict averse or passive aggressive. When clients get pissed about overages (even though they totally blew past the scope), your partner should be able to resolve conflicts while making the client both feel positive about the work and paying the additional fee.

-Meticulousness: If I let a client get a revision for free, it is definitely not because I'm obligated to. I made sure that my contracts were written simply, and effectively. That gives me confidence that if I had to, I would be entitled to enforce a tough client decision. I have NOT ONCE had to use a contract on a client and my agency has had over 130 engagements to date. I'm also organized with my account management, and I've trained my account managers to be this way. When a client first takes a step outside of bounds, we address it politely, immediately, and clearly. We don't let small grievances build up until the final stages of the project. Organized and meticulous communication is key, and your business partner should be a master of this.

Those are my initial thoughts.

TL;DR: Sounds like you need a business partner. Let him or her handle all
money, contracts, difficult client scenarios, and make you more profitable.
Find someone who is honest, transparent, confident, and meticulous.

------
ebbv
Sounds like the middle man you worked with was an asshole. What's the lesson
there? Don't work with that company/person. And think about what signs you can
look for in future partners that can tell you they are a similar sort of
asshole.

The "true client" proves there's business for you to get which will pay you
what you want to be paid. Go out and find the customers. That's really what it
comes down to.

------
beachstartup
there's plenty of other good advice here, but unless you're turning down 3-4
offers for every job you do accept, you're not charging enough money. this is
true _even when you 're not working_.

wrapping your head around this and going without a paycheck is tough. most
people aren't tough enough to deal with it, including you, until now. this is
why agencies can charge 200% markup on your estimate AND screw you for 40% on
the backend.

~~~
ilaksh
Are they "not tough enough" or not rich enough? If you don't have much saved,
are running out of food and have a kid and your rent is due, turning down a
job because it doesn't pay well means your kid goes hungry and your wife
divorces you.

~~~
beachstartup
yeah, sure, that's true. so what?

i mean literally, so what? do you want to make the money, or not? nobody is
going to hand it to you. you have to go out and find it. you're competing with
people with no kids, no debt, no spouse, and plenty of savings. tough cookies.

if you don't want to risk it, then don't. going on your own is not for people
who sit around all day and think of reasons why they _can 't_ do something.

------
MichaelCrawford
I'm looking to get away from contract programming, to being a consultant.

A contract programmer will write a software package, whether for an hourly or
a fixed rate.

An example of consulting I've actually done, is that a client flew me from San
Jose to Albuquerque to look into why his programmer's application repeatedly
crashed. After an hour or so of discussing it with him, I determined that his
custom memory allocator was not respecting the alignment restrictions of the
CPU.

That second case is what I'd like to do. It's not about the money, it's that I
would like more people to benefit from my many years of experience.

------
ilaksh
The trick is avoiding middlemen and finding rich clients. Its not easy and I
haven't figured it out. Maybe try to look more hipster.

