
Hospital workers make masks from office supplies - aaronbrethorst
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-03-18/hospital-makes-face-masks-covid-19-shields-from-office-supplies
======
GreaterFool
Why are all the masks single use? Why can't we make reusable masks that can be
disinfected by UV light?

Structurally those masks are pretty solid. I can easily wear a single surgical
masks for quite some time.

But would need some way to disinfect it!

EDIT: if everyone wore masks, like in Japan (where I live), then it would
limit the spread. If you're in early stages of the infection and you have no
idea, but you war a mask then you're less likely to infect other people.

AFAICT Japan isn't doing anything radical to stop the spread and yet the virus
is not spreading much. At best Japan asks infected people to stay at home. No
lock downs or quarantines. Bars, cafes, gyms and theaters are all open. Life
goes on.

What's the magic? Almost universal use of masks is the only reason I can think
of because I haven't seen any other measures in the society.

Yes, they closed schools but they usually close schools to some degree due to
influenza.

~~~
krtkush
> AFAICT Japan isn't doing anything radical to stop the spread and yet the
> virus is not spreading much. At best Japan asks infected people to stay at
> home. No lock downs or quarantines. Bars, cafes, gyms and theaters are all
> open. Life goes on.

Reports are that they are not testing enough. We can't tell who is doing it
the right way. We'll only know few months down the line.

~~~
aquadrop
If they don't test enough they still would have a lot of deaths then, they
have very old population. Don't think it's as simple as "they don't test
enough". South Korea afaik also didn't do full blown lockdown and yet they
managed to lower the speed of spreading. There are several clear anomalies
that don't get much attention for some reason. Like these "no lockdown" wins
in Japan and South Korea. Also, why is Germany's death rate is so much lower?
They have oldest median age of population in Europe. Do they use some
different medication, is it something they eat or what?

~~~
fiblye
It’s also very possible that the government isn’t looking into the cause of
death and just sweeping it under the rug. Nearly every mention of the virus’s
spread here is followed about “now what’s the effect on the olympics? What
will we do without the olympics?” Ever since the last Olympics, they’ve been
the main political and economic discussion topic of the whole country. TV has
been talking nonstop about how this is the time Japan will finally be a world
leader again, the economy is going to rise once more, English standards will
be raised so all the kids can “LET’S! English with the people of the foreign
country!”, every TV ad is somehow connected to the Olympics and Japan’s bright
future and basically everything will be better. I can’t even pump gas without
Olympics ads being played through the pump.

Imagine Abe having to announce on TV that nearly half a decade of national
identity is meaningless, down the drain, over, done for, and they’re out of a
shitload of cash with nothing to show.

~~~
chrisco255
Why can't they just delay the Olympics one year?

~~~
fiblye
That’s not Japan’s decision to make. The Olympics®︎ tells the country they’re
screwed, thanks for the cash, apply for the next 2020+4n Olympics.

------
crazygringo
There are a lot of things about this pandemic that have left me depressed.

But the fact that as the world's richest country, we don't even have the
administrative ability to keep a national emergency stockpile of essential
medical supplies like _face masks_ to get to hospitals immediately is just...
I can't even.

By sheer coincidence, I happened to spend a week in Mexico City the day swine
flu hit it, a decade ago. For the next several days, there were policemen
_everywhere_ distributing masks to the public. Instant response, zero
shortage.

I am genuinely curious what the root cause is here, if you did a "five whys"
analysis. Not a knee-jerk thing, but the real answer.

Is it that political squabbling has left things unfunded? Unappointed
administrators have left things undone, unmaintained, or backlogged? Was it a
conscious decision to decentralize and expect each hospital to be responsible
for maintaining its own emergency supply? A belief that supply chains would
handle it and stockpiling not needed? _Is_ there a stockpile somewhere that
isn't being released?

I'm really looking forward to a newspaper exposé on this one, because it's a
true scandal.

~~~
esyir
The US had a stockpile, but it was for bioterrorism scale and not pandemic
scale.

~~~
RegnisGnaw
Ontario (Canada) stockpiled a lot after the whole SARS thing. Unfortunately
they never planned rotating the supply or budgeted for it. So out of the 55
million masks we stocked, 80% have expired.

[https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-
canada...](https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-canada-
supplies-ex/exclusive-millions-of-masks-stockpiled-in-canadas-ontario-expired-
before-coronavirus-hit-idUSKBN20W2OG)

~~~
pjkundert
I'm certain the people unnecessarily infected with Covid-19 will be glad, as
they pass away, that the cough that killed them wasn't suppressed by an out-
of-date mask.

~~~
bdamm
"Expired" might mean that the mask material has disintegrated and could itself
be sucked into the lungs. Or perhaps it means that fungal infections could
have grown in the masks. Or maybe the government really made a decision based
on short term thinking and tossed the masks to make room for piles of salt or
something. Or maybe the cost of storing masks really isn't worth it because
there's lots of things that can decimate society (nuclear war?) and we needed
to more urgently spend money there. Who knows, right?

~~~
spectramax
Along those lines, Meltblown fabric used in N95 respirators is made from
plastic by some incredibly high tech machines. Each costing $5m per machine
(line):
[https://www.reicofil.com/en/pages/meltblown_lines](https://www.reicofil.com/en/pages/meltblown_lines)

You’re absolutely right. When a mask is expired, it should not be used. There
is a reason for the expiration date and it’s not just for profiteering or some
malicious motive.

Lot of expiration dates you see in medicines is FDA regulated and should be
taken seriously.

~~~
hcknwscommenter
I speak from experience. Most expiration dates for this kind of thing are
absolutely meaningless. I see expiration dates for sealed glass containers of
water, methanol, dry chemicals stored at -80C, etc. It is all complete bull.

~~~
RubberbandSoul
That's probably because there's a legal obligation to put an expiration date
on it. Where I live all consumables have to have an expiration date so there
is a best before date on table salt. Salt. Most likely this is because it's
cheaper and easier to put an expiration date on everything rather than
discussing the exceptions on a case by case basis.

~~~
rightbyte
The only food I can think off that literally says "last forever if stored
properly" is sugar.

------
pugworthy
Here is a CDC article about making a respirator mask with t-shirt cloth.

Towards the end it states...

“We showed that a hand-fashioned mask can provide a good fit and a measurable
level of protection from a challenge aerosol.”

[https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/12/6/pdfs/05-1468.pdf](https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/12/6/pdfs/05-1468.pdf)

------
dillonmckay
[https://hackaday.com/2020/02/12/hacked-protective-gear-
keeps...](https://hackaday.com/2020/02/12/hacked-protective-gear-keeps-doctor-
safe-in-the-hot-zone/)

Positive pressure DIY mask.

~~~
jws
It's worth noting that this is backwards in function of the surgical masks.
The surgical mask which strap on over the nose and mouth are about preventing
the wearer from spreading disease by catching the exhaled droplets and crud.
They help for inhaling, but lots of inhaled air gets in around the edges. It's
right there in the name "surgical mask", you wear it in surgeries to avoid
infecting the patient.

The positive pressure mask is about providing only safe air to the wearer,
protecting them from others.

The passive respirator I wear when sanding or working with solvents is P100 (P
means tolerates oil, N means doesn't and the 100 is better than the 95 you see
in N95), but it is also backwards. It protects my airways, but has an exhale
valve which lets my lung leavings right out into the atmosphere, and it does
nothing for my eyes.

~~~
im3w1l
The advice we hear is to cough into your elbow. Can it really not clear that
low bar?

~~~
_-___________-_
It seems literally to be designed to expel the air within the mask and replace
it with external air. Which is the opposite of what most masks aim to achieve
(contain droplets within the mask to prevent them from reaching others), and
would seem to increase the risk to people nearby.

------
1996
Even if it reduces the risk of contamination from a direct "cough in the face"
from 100% to 95%, when facing a disease with exponential progression, every
little bit helps.

Perfection is the enemy of the good.

~~~
istorical
So many people in both national media and social media parroting the info that
masks which are not perfect or not perfectly fitted are worthless, when in
reality a smaller viral load (such as a partially blocked cough or a
percentage of droplets being blocked) can actually lead to lower mortality.

~~~
amiga
Hopefully less people hoard masks for no good reason.

~~~
watwut
Which is still dumb reason to lie. Especially when state can demand that
official masks go to hospitals full stop.

People can make homemade masks. Here, women who have sewing machines are
making them for everyone around.

------
tuna-piano
The only illogical thing to me here (in the current moment, what do we do
now?) is - why are administrators doing this in such a hacky way? We have a
whole country with many, many ways of producing different types of products.

Why isn't a proper manufacturing operation at a paper company, quilt company,
halloween costume company, etc etc etc producing a big volume of hacked masks
to be distributed to tons of hospitals?

~~~
hn23
What you say is an argument from ignorance...but anyway: you should not imply
intent if incompetence works as well. And the latter is strong in.the current
US government;)

------
pugworthy
Here are some articles that may help those wanting to create effective face
masks...

Higher level view on efficacy of different home-available materials for filter
masks -> [https://smartairfilters.com/en/blog/best-materials-make-
diy-...](https://smartairfilters.com/en/blog/best-materials-make-diy-face-
mask-virus/)

More technical 2013 article from the "Society for Disaster Medicine and Public
Health" on different material efficacy ->
[https://drive.google.com/file/d/1AjwLMkEufJ2SSHRYyXpp3QY9jvQ...](https://drive.google.com/file/d/1AjwLMkEufJ2SSHRYyXpp3QY9jvQS7n--/view)

Lastly some sewing patterns for masks -> [https://so-sew-easy.com/face-mask-
sewing-patterns](https://so-sew-easy.com/face-mask-sewing-patterns)

~~~
jpindar
Also
[https://www.researchgate.net/publication/258525804_Testing_t...](https://www.researchgate.net/publication/258525804_Testing_the_Efficacy_of_Homemade_Masks_Would_They_Protect_in_an_Influenza_Pandemic#pf7)

------
mischa_u
As for doing fit testing at home, using cigarette smoke might be helpful:

"... it was found that tobacco smoke as it comes from a cigarette is an
extremely concentrated aerosol with a relatively stable distribution of sizes
ranging from 0.1 to 1.0 micron, peaked between 0.2 and 0.25 micron."

Source:
[https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/0095852260...](https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/0095852260900374)

------
malandrew
Recommended Guidance for Extended Use and Limited Reuse of N95 Filtering
Facepiece Respirators in Healthcare Settings

[https://www.cdc.gov/niosh/topics/hcwcontrols/recommendedguid...](https://www.cdc.gov/niosh/topics/hcwcontrols/recommendedguidanceextuse.html)

~~~
Darkphibre
I was hoping this covered how to sanitize them (I had a couple N95s in storage
that I've been reusing when out shopping. I live in Redmond/Kirkland, the
initial epicenter). I've heard some hospitals are lightly bleaching, and I'm
curious if my Everclear sprays would degrade the barriers.

What a crazy time to be living.

~~~
malandrew
Since alcohol helps, I suspect soaking them in 70% ethyl or isopropyl alcohol
and letting them dry should work for coronavirus at least. I reckon alcohol
will also do less damage to the mask than bleach.

If you want to try both alcohol and bleach just don't mix alcohol and bleach
at the same time as that will create chloroform.

[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK214356/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK214356/)

edit: ignore the idea of using alcohol as it will destroy the electrostatic
absorption of an N95 mask.

~~~
malandrew
Here's a better resource:

[http://www.imcclinics.com/english/index.php/news/view?id=83](http://www.imcclinics.com/english/index.php/news/view?id=83)

Key excerpt:

"The new coronavirus is sensitive to heat. It can effectively inactivate the
new coronavirus by heating for 30 minutes at 56 degrees Celsius. Therefore,
the single dry heat sterilization (70 degrees Celsius heating for 30 minutes)
can effectively inactivate the virus without affecting the protective function
of the mask."

~~~
Darkphibre
Thank you so much!! Alcohol can cause crazing or stiffening in some plastics,
so I worried about potential foams in the filters.

In fact, that was covered by your article: 2\. The disinfection method of
spraying alcohol on the mask will destroy the electrostatic absorption of the
mask, causing filtering efficiency of the mask lowering below 95%.

------
nico_h
Was there any follow up on this study on using salt to inactivate virus on
masks? I can’t seem to repost the study discussed here:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22232633](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22232633)

------
nopinsight
Every country that can should ramp up their mask production to the maximum.
There will be a global shortage for (likely 6-12+) months to come.

They can make and save the handsome profit to retrofit their factories to
manufacture other things later.

------
mathgladiator
I'm experimenting with snorkel mask and n99 filters

------
zeckalpha
I wonder about moving from disposable to cleanable masks/shields. Not sure if
that would help this specific situation, though.

------
m0zg
How is it possible that our hospitals have crapped out 2 weeks into the ordeal
with fewer than 10K patients? We are spending 3.6 _trillion_ dollars on this
shit _per year_. Those masks should be available by the metric ton and sewn
with gold thread at this price.

~~~
dragonwriter
> How is it possible that our hospitals have crapped out 2 weeks into the
> ordeal with fewer than 10K patients?

Because hospital and ICU maximum capacity is something less than double
average daily caseload, so it's easily overwhelmed by a local surge.

~~~
m0zg
Move ventilators to where they're needed then, maybe? Move patients elsewhere?
Just a thought. It can't be that the formidable US healthcare system is
incapable of handling 9500 cases nationwide, no matter the severity.

~~~
dragonwriter
One projection has, even _with_ “flattening the curve” with three months of
fairly strict restrictions, peak caseload in the US at 8× total existing
capacity. Moving stuff around lets you change which locality is the first to
be overwhelmed, but doesn't change much else.

> It can't be that the formidable US healthcare system

The US healthcare system is notably fragile, not formidable.

~~~
m0zg
> The US healthcare system is notably fragile, not formidable.

Citation needed. I've seen numbers that suggest the US has 2.5x ICU beds per
capita compared to European average. It also costs 3.6 _trillion_ dollars a
year. Surely at least some of this money contributes to it being less
"fragile"?

~~~
dragonwriter
> I've seen numbers that suggest the US has 2.5x ICU beds per capita compared
> to European average.

The number per capita isn't the key thing, the number _in excess of normal
use_ available per capita is. If the US has and uses more because it is worse
at keeping it's population off ventilators normally, that doesn't help.

> It also costs 3.6 _trillion_ dollars a year. Surely at least some of this
> money contributes to it being less "fragile"?

No, the cost is directly a consequence of the main source of the fragility, a
financing structure that, among other inefficiencies, promotes micro-
optimizations around short-run, single-actor financial efficiency in a system
with multiple no cooperating actors rather than systemic efficiency where it
promotes any kind of optimization at all.

