

Burn Baby Burn - queensnake
http://www.cringely.com/2009/09/burn-baby-burn/

======
ryanwaggoner
It seems so tantalizingly close, doesn't it? To replace the revered
institutions of higher learning in this country with laptops and Starbucks
cards, throwing the gates of prosperity and knowledge wide open for anyone who
cares to partake.

But I'm afraid it won't happen for awhile, for several reasons:

1\. The technology just isn't there yet. MIT's entire lecture series is not
online, far from it. Many of the OCW courses have only notes, no video, and
the ones that have video often lack resolution to be able to read the notes on
the board. Also, has anyone ever used Blackboard? It's horrible.

2\. Not everyone has the tenacity to sit through four years of college classes
and really learn something. Even fewer have the dedication to do it on their
own, remotely, with no human interaction other than a webcam to guide them.

3\. Schools such as MIT serve as a filter and a credibility indicator. They
have great professors, of course, but anyone can obtain the raw knowledge they
teach. What's harder to obtain on your own is the stamp of approval that
you've . PG commented on Dropbox's YC application that was posted on here with
his thought process. One of the first items was: "MIT...must be pretty smart."
That's the power of a credibility indicator at work.

4\. The people that are needed to make this happen are 1) parents, 2)
government (for incentives), 3) existing institutions of higher learning, 4)
employers (to hire these graduates). All of these groups are likely to have
degrees that are granted using the current model, and thus none are likely to
want to undermine their own education choices. What's the incentive for them
to break with status quo?

5\. School isn't just about what you learn...the best schools serve as a kind
of bridging ground between childhood and adulthood. Perhaps there are better
ways to accomplish this, but some kind of "GED for higher education" hardly
seems to be a good solution. I'd rather hire employees who are smart and
dedicated than knowledgeable. Most of what they need to know can be taught,
but character and raw intelligence can't be, or at least not easily. Getting
good enough grades in high school to get into a great school and then doing
well in that school indicate both mental aptitude and the perseverance that I
want in people who work for me.

These are off the top of my head...I'm sure there are more.

~~~
anigbrowl
I agree with many of your points, but...

 _1\. The technology just isn't there yet. MIT's entire lecture series is not
online, far from it. Many of the OCW courses have only notes, no video, and
the ones that have video often lack resolution to be able to read the notes on
the board. Also, has anyone ever used Blackboard? It's horrible._

That has absolutely _nothing_ to do with the technology, which is just fine
thank you. What's missing is a few man-years of recording and post-production
work - which colleges probably don't want to spend money on in order to give
away free. A 2-hour lecture isn't too complex to film, but to get good results
you need to spend maybe $2000+.

Multiply that out by the number of courses and you're looking at quite a chunk
of money...although it would seem a highly appropriate task for a government
grant (if you wanted to put the material into the public domain) or could be
self-financing with a little planning.

Th BBC's open university offers a model for this, though a rather pricey one -
<http://www.open2.net/> ...inexplicably, though, it's still built around TV
broadcasts which is kinda stupid nowadays.

~~~
marze
A startup opportunity? Video cameras are incredibly cheap, a PC with eight
webcams, software to do initial editing of a lecture with final edit done by a
human?

I can imagine a lectures could be put on video for much less than $2000 each
with the right technology.

~~~
anigbrowl
Webcams are really horrible though. If you're working with an eye to posterity
you'd be better off using a few regular cameras, and people to operate them.
Editing is a mixed bag. You could show the blackboard, but depending on what's
up there you might be better off doing titling in software and having it float
beside the lecturer.

Certainly you can do it for much less...$2000 was a ballpark price for doing
something of pretty decent quality that's going to be visually engaging - the
best lecturer in the world is a lot less compelling when s/he's been reduced
to the size of a postcard or less. I think auto-editing would be next to
useless except for the most basic things like:

    
    
      while(wide_cam.frame.rightside.movement = true)
        wait 10 seconds
        edit_cut_to (medium_closeup.cam[1])
      end while
    

It'd be a lot simpler to just hire a bunch of people and pay them to do the
work - trying to automate what is essentially an aesthetic process is a recipe
for wasting money. Bear in mind that you do get some economies of scale as you
do more 'episodes'.

On the other hand, I do think there's a great startup opportunity here, mixing
some basic production techniques with some visual FX techniques (let's animate
that polynomial as the lecturer explains it to us) and some decent interactive
controls (pause and rewind are sloppy relics of linear information access -
what we want are the kind of contextual controls at which game UIs excel).

~~~
cschneid
Mturk might be cool. "Here are 3 30 second video clips. At any given time,
hover over the one with the clearest view of the subject matter. Here's 5
cents.

------
mhb
Why wasn't he asking this question when textbooks started to be published?
Just give all the physics students Feynmann's Lectures on Physics and a few
other textbooks and they can educate themselves. Hire a professor to handle
the occasional question.

Does the existence of online video make this so much more compelling?

~~~
msie
Very good point! What has really changed with videos, ebooks and the web?
Maybe the web has made interacting with other students cheaper and more richer
than before. I don't know.

I do know that I enjoyed hanging around in the CmptSci common room and I
learned a lot just shooting the breeze with students, TAs and the occasional
prof. I would never have learned as much in a chatroom nor would I want to
hang around in a chatroom. There are so many modes of communication that are
not possible with the chatroom and you don't have the opportunity to bump into
random, interesting people.

~~~
gwern
> Very good point! What has really changed with videos, ebooks and the web?
> Maybe the web has made interacting with other students cheaper and more
> richer than before. I don't know.

Computers allow much better tests and quizzes, for one thing.

------
David
Do we really want to eliminate the physical university?

One thing that a campus does, that would not exist with an online education,
is create a community. Good universities get smart people together, which is
invaluable in creating wealth.

For a better explanation of what I mean, see the "Universities" section of
<http://www.paulgraham.com/siliconvalley.html>

[edited for grammar]

~~~
anigbrowl
I don't, but I would like to eliminate the enrollment. I personally feel that
universities should offer more ad-hoc participation and function like giant
libraries rather than toytowns for those who can afford to make a 4 year
commitment.

------
tybris
Academia is more about shaping your mind than learning material. Going to a
lecture is also not a very effective way to learn material. What is important
about lectures, assignments and tests is the social aspect. Everyone will
attend the same topic at the same time at the sample place, setting you up for
a (direct or indirect) discussion with your peers or your professor. This will
not only force you to really think about the topic, but also introduce you to
viewpoints your mind was not yet capable of producing. What makes a university
good is what your, your peers and your professors have to offer.

If you have a degree of MIT, that should tell people not that you were able to
watch MIT lectures and do MIT tests, but that you spent at least 4 years
developing your mind in one of the top academic and intellectual environments
in the world. "I watched MIT lectures on the Internet" is not quite the same.

------
wallflower
> What drives the education industry is producing degrees

A 4-year college degree is almost a standard requirement for a white-collar-
type job.

As for computer-based training, Neal Stephenson offered a tantalizing look at
where the potential lies with his the Young Lady's Illustrated Primer in "The
Diamond Age"

~~~
bayareaguy
_Neal Stephenson offered a tantalizing look at where the potential lies with
his the Young Lady's Illustrated Primer_

Exactly. Although the nanotech stuff remains distant, a present day Kindle or
tablet system could easily incorporate synchronized interaction between
children like Nell and actors like Miranda.

~~~
mechanical_fish
Of course, Stephenson also slyly suggested that the ideal remote-teacher-to-
remote-student ratio remains one to one: Miranda sacrificed her career to
raise Nell, remotely.

If you still need a human teacher, and that teacher has to be paid, what
exactly have you gained by interposing the Kindle between the teacher and the
student?

Greenspun once theorized that you could pay teachers in low-wage countries to
do the tutoring, but I have trouble believing this will work. Communicating
over a teleconference link is hard to do, even when there are adult-aged
engineering graduates on both ends of the link. Show me the person from a low-
wage country whose flawless command of English and uncanny ability to
communicate over the phone allows them to effectively teach eight-year-olds
from half a world away... and I'll show you someone who won't keep a low-wage
job for long, because someone is going to offer them a high-wage job.

~~~
bayareaguy
_suggested that the ideal remote-teacher-to-remote-student ratio remains one
to one_

I don't think that follows. Nell's Primer was only a prototype. As a practical
matter the kind of infrastructure that went into developing it would over time
be replaced by something more economically and socially efficient. The story
itself suggests that neither Miranda or the Primer's designers anticipated
Nell's needs.

 _If you still need a human teacher, and that teacher has to be paid, what
exactly have you gained by interposing the Kindle between the teacher and the
student?_

It's likely that little is gained in that limited student/teacher/employment
context but in my experience[1] I think there are considerable educational
opportunities once people step outside that traditional box.

1- <http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=226987>

------
flashingpumpkin
The author kinda forgets that there's also branches of study that can't really
be pursued from wherever you are but actually need facilities. Think of
chemistry for example.

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xiaoma
This reminds me of the piece on _StraighterLine_ , which allows students to
take as many online courses they like and complete them at whatever rate they
like for $99/month. It's accredited, too.

[http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/college_guide/feature/colle...](http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/college_guide/feature/college_for_99_a_month.php?page=1)

------
flipper
Well, it is already happening.

I am studying Law as an external student. All lectures are delivered using
Powerpoint + MP3s. Tutorials via Wimba (both chat and audio). Study groups are
actively encouraged (for some subjects they are required) and also use Wimba.
Legal databases supplement traditional textbooks. Exams are done either on-
line or invigilated at a University in my home town.

My campus is 1900 miles away and I need not visit it during my entire degree.

You might not be able to do it that way in Chemistry or Physics but in Law it
works very well. I can't see why it wouldn't work in Mathematics or many other
subjects.

------
jokull
Internships can also cover a lot of what the universities are trying to cover.
A group of interns can also cover a lot of the social aspects a lot of people
here claim would be missing from our society if it weren't for uni's.

