
Rip Your Resume in Half and Other Things You Won't Hear from HR - sixtypoundhound
http://resumeskills.us/
======
bogomipz
>"The typical hiring process endorsed by Human Resources is a massive waste of
time, calculated to keep hordes of applicants away from hiring managers."

This is so true. And I have to wonder why companies allow this nonsense? I'm
usually left wondering who is the average "recruiter"?

They are amongst the most clueless, unprofessional and inefficient people
working at these tech companies. And yet they have one of the most important
jobs there.

This is not to say all are like this as there are some excellent recruiters
out there but I would say that overwhelmingly most are not.

I feel like the majority of "recruiters" fall into one of two camps. The first
is not actually an employee but a contractor, who hops from one company to
another and so has no real vested interest the process or how they represent
the company.

The second I think is a HR generalist for whom "recruiting" is just another
responsibility along with all their other daily exigencies.

Either one of those generally results in a suboptimal experience for both the
candidate and the company.

We often hear about how hard it is to find good people. I don't think there's
a talent shortage problem, I think there's a recruiter problem.

The deep irony is that these are the very same companies who seek to disrupt
and/or exploit some market inefficiency. That mentality of innovation seems to
exclude their own hiring process though.

~~~
bluGill
Depends on the position. I've had some openings where several hundred people
applied. I don't have time to read 100 resumes, so anything that filters
things down is good. Other positions HR has told me there have been no
applicants in 2 weeks, and we need to open up the job description somehow.

For programming positions I safely take anybody who knows how to program. It
doesn't matter if you know C++ or not (we do most of our work in C++ - you can
substitute any language), by the time IT gets you a computer you will know
enough C++ to be left on your own. However except in the case of obviously bad
jobs (anyone want to do complex merges all day - I have a job opening that is
essentially that) such a job opening would give me too many resumes to read.

~~~
sanderjd
How do you reconcile "too many resumes to read" with the meme that there is a
massive hiring shortage?

~~~
jhayward
There is an unlimited number of unqualified people who apply to almost every
tech job hoping to get lucky.

------
gilbetron
I despise one page resumes. I want detail so I can figure out whether to
bother with you or not. The only time a short resume is ok is when you have
big names in your employer list, or major awards, or something. If you have
Google 2005-2015 or something, you really don't need to say much more beyond
what languages/technologies/libraries you used there. But for the other 99% of
people, I want to hear what you worked on, in detail. I can skim through a 5
page resume just as fast as a one page resume.

edit: After reading the article fully: This person is the opposite of me. I've
read hundreds of resumes, and I want depth and detail so I don't waste my
time. Reading resumes is the cheapest part of the process. Just make sure your
HR is sending you anything remotely decent, they should only be a very light
filter.

~~~
manyxcxi
Having reviewed hundreds, maybe over a thousand, resumes in the last decade- I
am fully in agreement on hating one page resumes.

That being said, if it’s five pages long, I’m not reading most of it anyway.

Here’s what I care about:

\- What has this person been doing the last couple of years?

\- Who were they doing it for?

\- Scanning their overall work history, does anything interesting (good or
bad) stand out. If so, make note for the interview if we get there.

\- A list of any accomplishments of note. Patents, speaking engagements,
related awards, publications, etc.

I don’t care about your hobbies, your family, or your GPA.

I’m not going to reject your resume because it was too long if I can easily
grep the data I’m looking for. I might reject it if it’s too short/empty
though.

Because this is what I look for, I keep my resume in the same pattern. The
last few years of my work history will contain way more detail. A few years
out I start summarizing, 6+ years out its only really big things of note or
stuff I’m especially proud of still.

I have a (small) accomplishments section after that, education last. 12 years
of history, organized and summarized in about 3 pages with a lot of space.

~~~
nicoburns
> I’m not going to reject your resume because it was too long if I can easily
> grep the data I’m looking for.

I think this is a key point. Layout and presentation are really important.
Even 1 page of dense, undifferentiated text is a lot. But 3 pages of well
presented, sectioned content is pretty easy to read.

~~~
gilbetron
Totally agree. A shitty 5 page resume (and I've seen plenty) is a major
turnoff. But so is a shitty 1 page resume (and I've seen even more of those!).

------
cm2012
One thing that can take a while to remember, if you've generally ran with the
"gifted" crowd in school (Read: top 10% reading comprehension scores on the
SAT), is that most people are just uncomfortable reading, it takes them a lot
of time, and they don't like doing it. It's almost always a good idea to
shorten/simplify any text meant for an unknown audience.

~~~
bloopernova
That's really difficult for me. I always end up writing novels for emails then
wondering why people only answered the first question.

(and they missed out parts (b) and (c) of the question, plus they didn't read
the linked web pages supporting my assertions)

Yes, I really need to cut back on how much I type there, but I have trouble
communicating in person so text is just so much more comfortable for me. Any
tips would be greatly appreciated.

~~~
moron4hire
I've found that leading people into a back and forth conversation where I can
guide them through those same points, rather than try to get them all out at
once, works better. Just go one at a time until you are sure they are on the
same page.

I also try to eliminate parentheticals. Branching lines of thought are very
difficult for most people.

~~~
cr0sh
> Branching lines of thought are very difficult for most people.

I haven't watched it, so this question might not be relevant - but how do you
explain the popularity of shows like "Game of Thrones"?

From what I gather, it has several various plot lines woven over and around
multiple episodes and seasons.

People also don't seem to have any problems deciphering the various "plot
lines" within their own circles of family and friends (in my experience with
people who seem to have waaaay too much drama in their lives).

Is there something about "video" that makes it easier to parse in this fashion
than text? Does emotional attachment to characters in such dramas (or personal
involvement) make it easier to understand intertwined plot lines?

Just musing on things here...hmm.

~~~
cm2012
Most people who watch GOT _don 't_ get all the plotlines. If you talk to
regular showwatchers (not book), they regularly mistake Stannis for Tywin for
Roose etc...They get enough of the gist to enjoy it.

------
fecak
Resume writer here. A good one page resume is a strong signal from a candidate
IMO and experience. It tells the reader "I don't need to tell you every minute
detail of my career to impress you. I want to start a conversation, and I
think this one page detail is enough for you to make the decision to start
that conversation."

I'll write a one page resume and a longer form resume for many clients. The
longer form resume can be useful during the actual interview, as it can
provide the interviewer with some fodder to ask about from the applicant's
experience.

A one page resume also tells the reader "I don't want to burden you with more
information than you need". When an applicant sends a five-page resume to a
company, there is some tacit expectation that the applicant wants the
recipient to read the whole thing (otherwise, why did he/she include five
pages?). That's an unnecessary burden to put on someone.

A single page resume isn't always entirely practical, but there are ways to
make it work even for people with 10 or 20 years of experience. Keep in mind
that a resume doesn't need to include every single job (the details of the
oldest jobs of technologists tend to be almost entirely irrelevant).

The resume also has to be written with the mindset that the reader isn't
likely qualified to even determine what the candidate does. You have to assume
the reader (when human) is looking for keywords in the same way a machine
(applicant tracking system) is, so including a summary that simplifies it for
the reader is useful.

When the CTO of a startup tells the temp at the front desk "You're screening
our resumes today, only send along Python developers with over five years of
experience", a resume summary that begins with "Python Developer with five
years of experience..." checks all the reader's boxes right away.

When writing the resume, make it as easy as possible for the reader to figure
out who you are and what you do. Don't use inside baseball terms or corporate
lingo that doesn't translate. Remove noise to allow hiring signal to come
through.

------
hasbot
Even at the end of my 28 year career, my resume was only two pages. I
continually edited it down. The older stuff, probably no longer relevant
stuff, was reduced to just a few words. For anything older than 4 years, only
a sentence describing the work is sufficient. If the interviewer is
interested, they can ask.

~~~
RulingWalnut
This is the right approach. The problem with the vast majority of multi-page
resumes is that the writer has an editing problem. If you can fill out 5 pages
with worthwhile info, I suppose that would be fine? But if you're at the level
where you can fill out 5 pages of worthwhile info, you'd be recruited directly
by the CTO and your resume wouldn't come close to me.

~~~
quickben
You have to get to the CEO these days.

I have one of these five pages resume. I usually get a job offer after an
interview.

------
giis
I've around +12 years of experience and my resume is one and half page. Half
of that will be opensource contribution not related to any organization. If
recruiter needs more info, we can always discuss that during interview itself
:-)

Edit: If anyone curious about the format/layout, here its:
[http://www.giis.co.in/LakshmipathiG.pdf](http://www.giis.co.in/LakshmipathiG.pdf)

~~~
baldfat
Yes and your showing that your older than the other applicants. I really
struggle with today's system from HR.

My wife wants to move back to her home state. I have over 25 years experience
and I have sent out 40+ applications. Jobs I am perfect for, jobs I am under
qualified for and entry level jobs. ZERO Phone Calls.

I need to just put my application like I am straight out of school.

~~~
jrs235
Is it obvious that you are currently not living locally?

Many places shy away with dealing with non-local applicants for various, often
silly, reasons:

They don't want to offer/negotiate relocation expenses, don't want to deal
with long distance interviews, don't have the setup/infra to give good long
distance interviews, not willing to pay for travel for an in person interview,
not willing to conduct only phone/video interviews, not willing to feel
responsible for having an applicant pay their own expenses to travel for an
interview.

Many places are not willing to consider/interview someone with those moving
parts because if they don't hire them, or things don't work out after hiring
them then the company/manager will feel responsible and the applicant might
bad mouth the employer. Granted bad mouthing an employer after a bad hire
experience can and does happen, it doesn't often have as much weight and drama
as when someone "moved across the country".

It's easier for an applicant to shout "I flew across the country to interview
and this company is/was a joke... they didn't hire me, and I had to pay to
travel to the interview!" or "I was hired by this company and I 'moved across
the country' for it and then they canned me for [stupid] reasons a, b, c, they
are a joke! They 'ruined my life' Avoid them!".

Unfortunately you need to move then look for a [local] job or conceal that you
are not currently a local applicant at least until to are at an in person
interview.

~~~
baldfat
My address is my In-Laws where I will be living when we move back.

------
dbg31415
Two issues with a one-page resume.

First, to get to the phone screen many companies now use some form of
automation to weed out applications. Less words simply means less chance of an
automated match against the job description criteria.

Second, never underestimate how lazy the HR screener is. They aren't
technical, they aren't ambitious, they're generally borderline incompetent
people whose sole marketable skill is that they are pleasant to talk with. If
you don't spell out, in detail, that you're a Front-end Developer who uses X,
Y, Z tools for N years the screener won't be able to read between the lines.

Quick example... I was in a time crunch so I asked a recruiter to find me a
Front-end Dev. She came back and asked for a job description, project brief,
culture brief, competitors / no hire list, and salary range. I felt like she
was asking the right questions, she seemed smart. A week goes by, "Sorry, no
candidates." Oh... Ok, well it's a hot market... we can up the price $5k.

Next week, "Sorry, no candidates." Hmm, that's really odd. She apologized,
said she had gotten over 100 resumes, and said, "Nobody has 5 years of HTML /
CSS experience listed on their resume." After a brief talk, she fundamentally
didn't understand anything past a direct keyword match.

Anyway good and bad recruiters, but you never know when your resume is going
to end up in the hands of someone really junior. Better to have everything
spelled out. Better to be explicit around what you did with each past job.
Generally the posted job description is all the recruiter is going off of to
match you, so it's easy to tune your resume to fit.

* Optimize Your Resume and Boost Interview Chances - Jobscan || [https://www.jobscan.co/](https://www.jobscan.co/)

~~~
GhostVII
> Second, never underestimate how lazy the HR screener is. They aren't
> technical, they aren't ambitious, they're generally borderline incompetent
> people whose sole marketable skill is that they are pleasant to talk with.

There are a lot of HR people in the world, that is a bit of a generalisation,
don't you think? I'm sure there are lots of great HR people, and lots of
incompetent HR people, just like any other job.

~~~
dbg31415
I can count on one hand the number of good recruiters I've worked with over
the years. Generally they view it all as a numbers game, spam over candidates
until one sticks. They won't go out of their way to understand things is what
I meant by "ambitious" there... If a candidate is thinking, "Well, my resume
is basically just a link to my GitHub profile," or, "I have all these awesome
references on LinkedIn..." I would caution them to not rely on HR people going
that extra step to get the info -- it should all be on the resume or it's
probably not going to get looked at.

~~~
logfromblammo
I could count on one hand the number of good recruiters I have worked with
_and_ the number of Voltron lion robots.

Every second I spent talking to a recruiter has been an absolutely unmitigated
waste of time. And they always try to waste _so much_ of my time, too. They
always seem to want to "touch base" and "reach out", or try to mine my contact
list for other prospects. It didn't take long for me to figure out that they
care not at all about _my_ outcome, and overwhelmingly prefer quantity over
quality.

------
daok
I am an engineer who had to do many interviews and before conducting
interviews I always look at the resume. In my opinion, I rather have 6 pages
resume than 1-2 page with so low information that I have no idea what really
was done in the last 10 years of this person. That being said, the first page
should give the core idea to pursue the reading, but once you have reached the
first scan I am in favor bigger resume than a thin one.

~~~
RubenSandwich
I'm also an engineer who has had to interview. My question to you is: how do
you filter through 100 people each with 6 pages resumes? I'd rather have 1
page, 2 max, because I have to filter through a bunch of people in a short
amount of time.

I did the math once and for the initial filter which was the resume scan, I
and another person gave about 1 1/2 minutes per applicant and it still took an
hour! I doubt in the future I'll get any more time so please make it scannable
in ~1 1/2 minutes.

~~~
balabaster
Would you rather spend an extra minute or two on the resume scan or an extra
half an hour in the interview only to find that a month after you hired them,
they're incapable of doing the job?

Careful where you think you're wasting time and effort.

~~~
RubenSandwich
You bring up a good point. My counterpoints:

1\. Decision fatigue \- A longer resume doesn't make the choice easier, it
makes it harder because now I have more to compare and contrast more.

2\. Half-life of knowledge \- I did computer vision about 5 years ago, but I
leave it off my current resume because I know the field has changed so
dramatically since I last did it that my knowledge of it is out of date.

~~~
maxxxxx
I think your comment about computer vision illustrates what's wrong with this
industry. If you were able to do computer vision 5 years ago you should be
able to get up to speed now. This attitude doesn't allow most of to build a
decent resume but instead we have to chase the latest tech all the time and
none of our experience counts. For example I would prefer someone who worked
on a big complex web site ten years ago with the tools available then over
someone who has done a simple web site with the latest React version.

------
bbarn
I like to have two resumes.

One is optimized for getting past HR and screeners. It should check the boxes
the job posting has, and leave out anything that indicates your age, unless
they specifically ask for 10+ years of experience.

The other a longer, more detailed one to hand your interviewer during the
interview in case they want to talk about specific experiences more.

Either way - you're always gambling here. You can't read the personality on
the other side of a job post. Even if that job post looks like the best dev
manager in the world wrote it (and that may be the case even) it doesn't mean
that applications don't go through the screener who's also handling the hires
for janitor, marketing rep, and help desk. It could also be going directly to
that manager, and they may have a preference for detail.

~~~
expertentipp
I too have multiple resumes - in pdf, odt, txt. I simultanously keep them up
to date and consistent so that when the recruitment system has obnoxious
requirements I simply copy paste into the fields from the txt version. One is
simply unable to win this game.

------
olivermarks
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Applicant_tracking_system](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Applicant_tracking_system)

Applicant Tracking Systems have arguably been a disaster for humans seeking
positions in larger organizations. Taleo etc are laughably basic and typically
miss valuable candidates because they work on 90's era keyword loading...I
know this having hired for lots of positions in a couple of large companies.
You can copy all the keywords in a job application, stuff your resume with
them and the ATS will pick up the resume as 'valuable'

I can't say anything positive about the vast majority of HR organizations, who
are mostly just sitting in the management meetings waiting for instructions to
fire or hire and have virtually no influence outside that...

------
gdfer
Are people intentionally crafting their resume in such a way that the first
page(ish?) could essentially be read as a standalone thing -noting the
highlights and main points. Then the remaining pages would, in a sense re-
state some of what the initial page has but drill down and provide more
detail. Is that a good approach to take?

~~~
chadgeidel
That's essentially what I do. First page is all I expect the interviewer to
read. My resume is 2 pages for >10 years of experience.

I agressively delete unrelated skills and promote related skills based on the
job description.

~~~
gdfer
If you're writing your first page as a standalone thing though that matches
what the posting is looking for, do you think you need to eliminate unrelated
things on the remaining pages?

~~~
chadgeidel
Yeah, I wasn't super clear about my scenario. I have a "all skills" resume and
I pare that down for each job.

------
mixmastamyk
I changed my long resume last year to a one-page, largely graphical one, but
it hasn't performed well. Might be going back to the old one.

~~~
liquidcool
Got an application from a developer that looked _terrible_. Was ready to
dismiss it, when I happened to notice there were patterns to the garbage, and
it was really _too_ terrible for anyone. Asked her to send me the original and
I found the culprit:

It was two columns.

That was all it took to throw off the resume parser at Indeed of all places.
So what you're doing will be hopelessly destroyed by any resume parser out
there. That is likely the reason for the performance.

~~~
mixmastamyk
There’s no reliable way to parse a resume, mine is a pdf, and almost all sites
ask for additional fields anyway.

------
rents
While one pager resumes are the standard advice (and yet not many people know
that), I see that the author of this article is biased towards the resume
skills of a person.

You are not judging the person on his technical merits and suitability of the
role but rather his resume skills. Unless the role you are hiring for is
creating resumes.

Again, "tell me why I should hire you and in plain english" is just a bad
question and a bad intent. You as an interviewer need to judge that and rather
say here is why you should join.

------
aaronchall
Opinions are like...

Well, here's mine, on qualities of a good resume:

    
    
      - consistent style
      - no complete sentences (too verbose especially w/ consistency)
      - everything relevant listed
      - good organization, most relevant things first
      - LaTeX or markdown for consistent formatting in your output
      - no typos
      - nice resume paper (a nice touch)
    

Anything marginally but decidedly helpful that goes past the first page is
likely to be ignored, but maybe keep it anyways, especially if you've been in
the workforce for more than 10 years. Less than 10 years, probably keep it to
one page.

~~~
John_Cena
I thought about using markdown for my resume but I was afraid that nobody
would know what it was.

At my current job I have found one person that knows what markdown is. Could
you go into more detail for me please?

~~~
aaronchall
I use LaTeX, a document markup language, for my and my wife's resume. (The
resumes come out very nice.)

Markdown can be used to output to LaTeX, but I haven't built a build-chain
that takes markdown and puts it into my prefered resume style yet.

I'd like to build one, though, but I'm still not sure what type of markdown to
use.

If you're a developer applying directly to a hiring manager who is also a
developer, and you're going to bypass traditional HR, you might try a resume
preformatted as markdown, which seems to be what you thought I meant, but I
think that would be a bit nichey - meaning it probably won't work in most
situations.

------
JustSomeNobody
> Tell me, in simple English, what you have to offer and why I should hire
> you.

What does this look like, exactly?

Edit: Surely it looks different if I were to hand it to a hiring manager vs a
machine reading resumes, yes? What are examples of both?

------
littleweep
I wish this article got into:

1\. how to find the hiring manager for a role (take a wild stab on LinkedIn)?

2\. after that, reach out to them directly on LinkedIn and reference the job
listing? Attempt to guess their email format and cold email?

~~~
mxuribe
I think if your item #1 were a reality, HR departments would mysteriously get
more jobs filled quicker, and with likely more appropriately-matched
candidates. And, yet, HR systems and processes seemed designed as the article
notes, to block the "flood" of candidates. It is silly really, and I agree
with you 100%!

~~~
littleweep
Along the same vein, how do you even address a cover letter if you don't know
the name of the hiring manager? I always felt like "To the Attention of the
Hiring Manager" was cheesy and impersonal.

------
jlebrech
not matter how pretty you format your CV you'll sit at and interview wondering
why the interviewer is looking an mangled up piece of paper which turns out to
be your CV.

Also recruiters that have a form with 10 textareas (for you to fill out career
history) are the worst.

------
indymike
1\. Tell why you aren't a fit.

2\. Tell why you are an exceptional fit.

3\. Tell where you can see your work.

I have not spent five years working with Docker tooling. I do have experience
with ___, ___ and ___ and if you've used ____, _____ and _____ (in this case
on Android) you've used my work.

80% interview rate.

~~~
r00fus
> 80% interview rate.

What does this mean? 80% interview pass? 80% successful hires as
manager/interviewer?

------
DrNuke
One page CV, not more not less than that!

------
pklausler
I read a lot of resumes. I only ever read the first page, and only up to the
first bad spelling error.

------
anotheryou
I like nice typo. Easily adds 30% pages.

------
chasedehan
If a website looks like its from the '90s I don't care what the content says.
I'm going on to the next thing.

~~~
eesmith
If that's true, then why are you here at HN? The UI is little different than
Slashdot from 20 years ago.

