

Ask HN: Arguments against forming a union? - gamesbrainiac

What are the arguments against forming a union of software engineers?
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SEJeff
I always saw unions as protecting employees from abusive employers. In fact,
the old rail road construction workers are exactly what it makes me think of.
Those workers didn't have many other options for work and the employers were
blatantly exploiting them. For them, a union made tons of sense.

On the other hand, most tech companies aren't really that abusive, or they
won't retain talent for super long (see the recent NYT hatchet job on Amazon
as an example). Given that so many tech companies in the U.S. Are "at will"
employment, there aren't many perceived benefits of a union that I can
actually think of. The downside would obviously be that new employees would be
forced to pay union dues whether or not they wanted to join. It seems to me
that due to there being more employment opportunities for what I do than there
are people, I've got the most power, not the employer. If that previous
statement is true, I simply see no benefit of organizing into a union. Gone
are the days (for the most part) where you slog it out for 30 years at the
same employer and get a pension for life. On the flip side, the mean salary is
MUCH higher, so if you're living below your means and save, you have the
potential to end up better than your parent's generation with their pensions.

Just my opinion. I would never join a tech workers union unless I was at an
abusive company. However, an abusive company isn't a place I'd stay at.

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hwstar
At-will employment is more of an advantage for the employer than the employee.
The employer is in a position of strength in and at-will arrangement. Yes, the
employee can quit at any time, but the employee usually very dependent on
getting paid, and will not quit unless the employment relationship is really
bad.

At-will employment allows the employer to terminate the employment
relationship for any reason whatsoever (with a few exceptions which vary from
state to state).

Unions and most other developed countries in the world use the doctrine of
"Just-cause". Just cause limits termination of employment by the employer to
non-nebulous things like non-performance, breaking the law, policy violations,
and business conditions. The employee is still free to terminate the
relationship at any time. This is a fair balance because the employer is in
the position of strength and has the upper hand in most instances.

Unions do have issues. It would be better if the US harmonized its employment
law with the rest of the developed world.

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pdkl95
Unions are what you want them to be, just like any other constructed
organization. Just like there are many types of businesses (e.g. partnerships,
LLC, 501(c)(3), etc), which can be further refined with their charter for
specific goals, a union can be defined for whatever purpose you want.

If some of the traditional uses for a union may not be needed in the software
industry, it could still be _very_ useful to charter a different type of
union. Something like a very minimal union that simply had the goal of
protecting against really big things like the recent scandal about cartel-
style limiting of salaries. A union that - by it's own charter - only concerns
itself with that kind of thing would be very low cost, and would serve to
discourage that kind of abuse from happening in the first place.

Arguments for or against unions are useless without first defining what you
mean by "union".

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MrTonyD
I read that to join the workforce in Denmark you sign up for one of the Unions
- so everybody in society gets someone on their side. And they also have
employees on corporate boards by law. So they are trying to improve things for
everybody.

So maybe I'm saying that a union just for software engineers isn't enough. It
is a half-measure that doesn't really address any of the real worker problems
of our society.

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nvader
It's funny, I had a similar thought while I was in the shower earlier today. I
observed that while we _don't_ have anything resembling a trade union, I've
never personally felt the need for it.

On the other hand, isn't it the case that while trades have unions,
professions have professional associations? Just as doctors, lawyers and
accountants do, so do we: the IEEE and ACM come most readily to mind.

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gcb0
the ACM couldn't represent me less...

~~~
nvader
Oh, interesting. Why do you say that?

