
What I learnt from being sexually harassed at Google - AndrewDucker
http://www.gadgette.com/2016/01/19/what-i-learnt-from-being-sexually-harassed-at-google/
======
zoidb
original - [https://medium.com/@juliachou/it-s-not-your-
fault-3e5ad1ccb9...](https://medium.com/@juliachou/it-s-not-your-
fault-3e5ad1ccb95c#.chzsfx407)

~~~
dang
Previously discussed here:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10909612](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10909612).

------
qb45
> In the span of a week, I went from feeling excited and motivated about my
> job to feeling lethargic, anxious, and unenthused. (...) I was kissed on the
> cheek, asked to sit on my manager’s lap, told about my manager’s sex life
> and virility (...)

There exists a breed of narcissists who are so incapable of tolerating
rejection that they will consistently ignore every sign of it. In fact, the
less you are satisfied with their actions, the more they will repeat them,
desperately _needing_ to see that your displeasure was just a temporary fluke
and in the end they really are those cool dudes who are never wrong and
everybody just admires them.

As a man I've never been asked to sit on one's lap (knock on wood), but some
did give me a fair amount of trouble.

It doesn't help that their delusional serf-confidence can be confused with
competence by some less experienced folks and get them promoted to management
roles. In fact, I'd expect their density to increase as you go up the
corporate food chain.

~~~
4k
I am member of a minority, and have had more than one chance to go to the HR
to report "being racially abused" and present the narrative in such a way that
anyone would be convinced it was horrible.

Firstly, what happened to her is definitely misconduct, but not sexual
harassment. I get the impression that the "victim" here is trying to take
advantage of the situation. She never asks the inappropriate person to stop
here, instead goes to HR. I mean just in plain words "Please don't, this is
inappropriate." would stop most such behavior from happening again in huge
majority of cases.

> During the HR investigation that ensued, I remember being shamed by a female
> colleague who thought I was blowing the situation out of proportion. She
> thought I was being overly sensitive, and that it was wrong of me to report
> my manager. That hurt. I thought she would’ve naturally supported me.

"Being shamed"? What if that female colleague honestly thought that she was
blowing the situation out of proportion? A mere disagreement is shaming? Just
because someone thinks they are 'sexually harassed' doesn't make them right
automatically. I mean is there any scenario where someone claiming they are
harassed could be on the wrong side of the things (or blowing things out of
proportion)? It seems the SF/valley area atleast is too politically correct to
even entertain the possibility that the female could possibly be wrong or
making a mistake. Anyone that doesn't agree with a narrow notion of SJW
equality is literally the devil. And this sort of trend has made 'being
victim' a somewhat coveted status that can be used for gaining
publicity/career advances.

~~~
thedz
> Firstly, what happened to her is definitely misconduct, but not sexual
> harassment. I get the impression that the "victim" here is trying to take
> advantage of the situation. She never asks the inappropriate person to stop
> here, instead goes to HR. I mean just in plain words "Please don't, this is
> inappropriate." would stop most such behavior from happening again in huge
> majority of cases.

1\. Your implicit dismissal of her as a victim by using quotes is, frankly, a
pretty large part of the reason why women feel so frustrated in tech. Here you
are, a third party to this situation, automatically assuming that she's
somehow someone who is purposely trying to take advantage of a situation.

2\. Why is it the woman's responsibility to tell her male manager that it's
inappropriate to ask her to sit on his lap? I mean, c'mon. I'll ask a coworker
to stop if he's playing his music too loudly, but this is hardly in the same
league. Plus, he's in a position of power over her, as her manager.

3\. This situation is _precisely_ why there's an HR department.

~~~
dawnbreez
1\. Parent comment's dismissal is based upon details revealed in the article,
or rather details that weren't revealed. He suspects that, since the victim
escalated immediately, the victim may not have wanted a peaceful resolution.
We don't have the full picture, but what we have suggests that there were
other ways to handle it.

2\. Yes, I expect you to say that you're upset by the situation. I cannot read
your mind; most people can't read your mind either, and many of them don't
know the line between a 'joke' and harassment. Telling someone you don't like
what they're doing is a crucial step, because otherwise they may assume
nothing is wrong. We want the boss to learn that his joke is not funny, and to
do that sometimes you have to say it to his face.

3\. Neither side is communicating well, which is indeed why HR exists. It's
also possible that the boss would've continued after being told explicitly to
stop. This does not mean you reach for HR's hotline the moment something goes
wrong. You don't respond to a slap by pulling a knife, and you don't respond
to a knife with a nuke--at least, not without examining other options.

~~~
unprepare
> We don't have the full picture, but what we have suggests that there were
> other ways to handle it.

So it's safest to assume that the victim of sexual harassment is at fault, of
course.

> because otherwise they may assume nothing is wrong.

So in this scenario, you're taking the stance that the Manager at Google has
no concept that asking an inferior employee to sit on his lap could be
unacceptable workplace behavior?

That doesn't seem like a generous read to you? You honestly think that this
man, who has been working in a professional environment for at least a decade,
was completely unaware that asking an employee to sit on his lap could
possibly be construed as sexual misconduct?

So to review:

victim of sexual misconduct: obvious potential liar

perpetrator of sexual misconduct: blameless victim of ignorance

Got it.

~~~
dawnbreez
I am taking this stance because you, in your infinite wisdom, have assumed
there are no possibilities other than the manager being the literal Devil. To
compensate, I am taking the opposing position, so at least both ends of the
spectrum of possible arguments are heard.

That having been said, talking about your problems is a basic communication
skill that everyone who's graduated high school really should have, since it
helps ensure that everyone learns from their mistakes and nobody has to be
fired. Something I've noticed often in thses sorts of conversations is that
people assume their point got across even if the other person acts like they
aren't reading the subtle social cues.

TL;DR: I'm arguing with you because you're not thinking about both ends, and
someone's gotta think of the other possibilities if we're to be sure that
we're right; further, you shouldn't rely on subtlety to work with someone who
can't handle subtlety. That's like expecting Java to be weakly typed. You
gotta rule out the possibility that they're just stupid before you assume
they're a dick.

------
zupreme
I'm not so sure about this one.

I think sexual harassment and direct flirtation can become confused depending
on the perspective of the recipient.

Men have been making advances toward women throughout history and, perhaps to
a lesser extent, women do the same toward men.

Far more workplace flings happen than any company (and even many employees)
will admit and it often starts with one party or the other making their
desires known to the other party. I've also been part of and present for many
very graphic conversations in the workplace involving both sexes and none of
these, to my knowledge, were never seen as harassment or reported as such.

In reading the linked article the one thing I don't see is where she told the
manager "No. I'm not interested. Leave me alone." Perhaps if she had simply
been as direct with him as he was being with her, the entire HR fiasco could
have been avoided.

It's telling that the female colleague felt that she was overreacting. At no
point in the article does she mention the manager touching her
inappropriately, or saying anything to imply that her job or compensation
depended on her accepting his advances.

This honestly sounds like he was a guy who got attracted to a colleague, made
steadily increasing verbal advances (which were not rebuffed), and then got
blindsided by HR.

I'm sure this won't be a popular view here but I think it's valid.

Edit: Replaced "HR Worker" with "Colleague". As some responders pointed out it
was not the HR person who told her she was overreacting (thanks for the
corrections).

~~~
thedz
> It's telling that the female HR person felt that she was overreacting. At no
> point in the article does she mention the manager touching her
> inappropriately, or saying anything to imply that her job or compensation
> depended on her accepting his advances.

It was a female colleague, not HR. According to the article, HR was fully
behind her, as they should be.

> This honestly sounds like he was a guy who got attracted to a colleague,
> made steadily increasing verbal advances (which were not rebuffed), and then
> got blindsided by HR.

Not just a colleague, a report. This is what's important. HR would have
frowned on a manager making advances on his reports, if nothing else.
Especially advances on a new report during her first week.

~~~
spoiler
My friend was in the same position about a year ago, and she told her boss
(directly, and in private conversation) that she's not interested, after he
didn't interpret a few other subtle hints. She still works there.

Furthermore, she the boss and some other colleagues were cracking jokes about
it during a team building event that I was invited to.

Edit: I realise this is anecdotal, but it feels to me like the author of the
blog post immediately assumed she's a victim and panicked. Maybe the manager
should've been more observant, but pointing fingers is useless without knowing
what really happened. We only have her account of the story, which is probably
distorted by the discomfort she experienced. This is not to say her discomfort
shouldn't be taken into account, and yes I agree that HR should've sided with
her, but I don't believe he should've been seriously sanctioned either.

~~~
thedz
It doesn't sound like he was -- he apologized, and they moved her to a
different group

------
jneal
I'm not going to speak directly regarding the way this individual handled this
situation, but in general, if you experience any form of sexual harassment I
highly recommend you speak with HR immediately following the incident. Don't
allow it to escalate, things can only get worse. Even if it's your first day
on the job, you should never feel speaking to HR regarding an incident is a
bad idea.

~~~
Aeolos
Can you really trust HR to do the right thing?

~~~
DasIch
If you can't trust HR to do the right thing or they don't, it's time to leave.

~~~
lmm
If you've privileged to have adequate savings and good prospects, sure. For a
lower-middle-class graduate on their first job it isn't always that simple.

~~~
ethbro
It's a good point. From a purely procedural standpoint, "Discuss with
colleague, contact HR immediately if it persists (or immediately if serious
enough), then hire lawyer" is impeccable advice.

On the other hand, from an outcomes standpoint, this gets a lot more murky. "I
see you recently graduated and worked for Google for a month?" "Yes, I had to
leave under difficult circumstances" isn't a great conversation to be having
career-wise, right out of college, interviewing for a replacement job. So I
empathize with the blogger's confusion as to the right course.

Same problem as whistle-blowing.

------
eklavya
Why does nobody seem to be bothered with the apologize and continue as usual
outcome? Shouldn't there have been serious implications for the sexual
offender?

~~~
Sir_Cmpwn
I have to write this comment pretty carefully to avoid vindicating the
offender or blaming the victim. It seems to me like the victim wasn't making
it clear that she was uncomfortable (this is not her fault), and perhaps the
offender was picking up on signals that weren't there. The situation needed to
be fixed, but the behaviour mentioned in the article could have been more
flirtatious than forced. A zero tolerance policy is just a way of removing the
humanity from the situation. Maybe the events weren't so severe to demand that
he lose his job, has charges pressed, etc. I don't think we should be calling
for his head. I am surprised that she continued to work under his management,
though.

~~~
nikcub
> It seems to me like the victim wasn't making it clear that she was
> uncomfortable

The default position should be to assume that _everybody_ is uncomfortable
with _everything_ unless otherwise stated.

It's like a good firewall policy - default block all and then explicitly
allow.

~~~
forgottenpass
That's a good way to wind up unhappy and alone at work. Chances are that
anyone using that strategy and isn't miserable has a fair number of unspoken
assumptions about acceptable behavior, and don't actually use that strategy
but are slightly more guarded that normal so they think they do.

~~~
nikcub
That not wanting to be sexually harassed would make someone unhappy and
miserable in a workplace is exactly the problem.

~~~
ethbro
You missed forgottenpass's more nuanced point.

"Not wanting to be sexually harassed would make someone unhappy and miserable
in a workplace" was not the assertion. The assertion was "going to such
extremes as to _guarantee_ that no claims of sexual harassment could at any
time be made against you would make you unhappy and miserable in a workplace".

------
AznHisoka
Is this really a problem with Silicon Valley? I think it's an universal
problem you'll find in all industries.

~~~
mbrutsch
My mother worked in an all-male field starting in the 1970s; they didn't even
have a women's bathroom at the plant when she started. When something like
this happened to her, she was perfectly capable of opening her mouth and
telling the person that their behavior was unappreciated.

I don't see where she says she ever even hinted to the manager that his
actions were inappropriate. I suspect a single "cut that shit out, stop acting
like a damn teenager" might well have stopped this problem in its tracks. But
we'll never know.

I read these tales of woe and wonder why people today lack the intestinal
fortitude to stand up for themselves, rather than resigning themselves to the
status of "victim".

~~~
Ntrails
See - this is interesting. There is definitely a sense that in "ye olden days"
people were stauncher. There's a bit of application of so called common sense
where a lot of behaviours can be shut down by addressing them.

Yet you instantly have to recognise that you just blamed the victim for not
being more assertive, and not being able to protect themself from something
that they should _never_ have to deal with - it's not even _close_ to
acceptable behaviour.

I am not unsympathetic to your point, I just kinda wish some consequences
would start arising for the seemingly endless tide of entitled pricks who
either don't care or don't know any better.

~~~
mbrutsch
> Yet you instantly have to recognise that you just blamed the victim for not
> being more assertive

You and every other commenter seems to think I don't understand that. Not sure
why.

~~~
EliRivers
It's because people give the benefit of the doubt and don't want to think
you're the kind of guy who blames the weak and powerless when bullies abuse
them.

~~~
mbrutsch
My mother was _anything_ but "weak and powerless". Sure, standing up for
yourself isn't "ladylike", and not everyone is willing or able to do it, but
the current assumptions are "she is weak and powerless" and "he is a big
strong bully". That dynamic is easily changed, but you have to be willing to
stand up for yourself.

~~~
EliRivers
This isn't about your mother. Your mother managed to push the problem onto
someone else, which is nice for her. There will always be people who, for
whatever reason, don't.

Is your attitude that it's acceptable for these people, who do not push the
problem onto someone else, to be sexually assaulted? If it's not acceptable,
why is it incorrect for the victim to seek help? If I were burgled, I would
seek help. If I were mugged, I would seek help. Why is it incorrect for me to
seek help if I am sexually assaulted by a manager?

Furthermore, given that my employer has a duty to ensure a safe workplace, why
should I not upbraid my employer for failing in that duty, or advise them of
the problem so that they can correct it? If I saw a dangerously loose carpet,
I would tell them. If I noticed some buzzing wiring, I would tell them. Why
should I not tell them that one of their employees is sexually harassing
people?

~~~
ethbro
_> Is your attitude that it's acceptable for these people, who do not push the
problem onto someone else, to be sexually assaulted?_

In a normally common-sense forum here, I'm kind of amazed by the number of
comments here that go straight to the nuclear extension of the other's point.
Can we assume that we're all against sexual assault here and have a bit more
charitable discourse?

------
ck2
_In that week, I was kissed on the cheek, asked to sit on my manager’s lap,
told about my manager’s sex life and virility, and told that “all men go
through an Asian fetish at some time”_

holy frack - that's insane - and no way the first time they've said these
things in front of other people before with no-one challenging the behavior as
unacceptable

easy guide for men: if you wouldn't say it to a friend's daughter, or someone
saying it to your daughter, don't say it to any woman you aren't in a personal
relationship

------
throwaway19245
I'd like to preface this comment by saying I'm not confident in my opinion,
and I'm very open to discussion and to changing my stance.

My understanding is that the manager's actions would likely be considered low
level harassment, tipping towards misconduct considering the short duration (1
week) and minimal resolution attempts outside of HR. Definitions are hard for
this subject, but my understanding is the phrase escalates with severity from
misconduct->harassment->assault.

I agree that the manager was in the wrong, but I worry about a culture that
cannot readily distinguish the severity of conduct, and in-turn come up with
an appropriate response.

In this scenario, I feel going to HR was appropriate, but I also feel this
writing takes an overly hostile tone, instead of one focused on improvement.
I'd find this tone appropriate if there were more pushback from HR, or if
harassment continued and HR wouldn't help resolve. But as far as I can tell,
OP is happy with HRs response.

Perhaps instead we can explore what HR can and should do to prevent self-
confidence issues at the conclusion of these investigations? To me, that would
be more beneficial than asking others to pursue a path which - all things
being similar - results in self-doubt.

~~~
mgbmtl
I understand your point of view, but I feel like we often underestimate the
level of harm that some types of misconduct can cause. A workplace should
never tolerate any type of harassment (and few workplaces do).

It's not just the act itself, it's also the act in the current historical
context (institutional inequality) and work context (workplace power
inequality).

Unfortunately the effects on OP are probably much bigger than we expect
because of the way we are socialized, our culture, etc. Some might say that
it's not the guy's fault that our society is so imbalanced, but I think we
should be more conscious about this in general. To prevent the self-confidence
issue, we could probably fix our education and general culture, but in the
short term we could just not harass women at work. That's a pretty easy short
term solution :)

------
isnullorempty
What happened to the woman in the article was unacceptable _if_ she clearly
signaled she wasn't interested. On the other hand some women now think "Why
won't that cute guy come hit on me?, is he shy or gay?" No he is worried you
will report him for harassment. Forget ever trying to date someone from work
it's a minefield (as is dating in general!).

~~~
throwaway999888
It's unacceptable because of the manager-subordinate relation.

And you can't put the burden on women to actively _signal_ that they are not
sexually interested in a professional setting. That's at best a large
distraction for them, and at worst very draining and emotionally damaging.

~~~
isnullorempty
I meant if someone show interest not all the time, men can be dumb and are
unable to detect subtle hints.

~~~
thedz
Are you actually using "I'm stupid and oblivious" as an excuse?

------
bitL
As somebody that has endured the same the other way round - being hit on by
many (even married) female colleagues, HR girls, having a female manager
attempting to invite me to her room in the hotel, girls repeatedly stalking me
at my apartment, e.g. after I performed on a piano at a party, even just
meeting random girls that would dump their boyfriends on the spot, completely
shaking with excitement (me and her BF just look at each other with disbelief:
"Is this really happening?"), dozens of girls telling me I am their
"Mr.Perfect" etc. I can relate to her plight. However, she at least has some
recourse; if I wrote a blog about my experiences I'd become a laughing stock
of the Internet. Sometimes I think redpillers/AFBB got something right, which
is shaking me to the core... There are some very dark areas of both male and
female sexuality...

~~~
qb45
> if I wrote a blog about my experiences I'd become a laughing stock of the
> Internet

So write a blog post on what lead you to such abundance :)

~~~
bitL
Win everything you can as a kid whether it is sports or scientific
competitions, then decide it's not worth it (winner is the lonely one), grow
in an environment where girls are looking like supermodels so you aren't
intimidated by their looks and can talk to them normally and just don't care
that much about them, learn as many arts as you can, like playing an
instrument, how to use chiaroscuro, how to make pro photography, direct
movies, make computer games and cool graphics, run your own businesses, be
amongst top students of your universities, be very tall, have a nice
personality with very firm boundaries, go deep into conversations with girls
then eject to avoid boredom on both sides, be surprising, don't be needy,
nerdy, geeky, abrasive or inept, have a sister that tries to break your frame
since you were child but was never successful, have a vision you follow and
push for a better world, learn at least 6 foreign languages, travel around the
world, be fit, be able to tell off declining people with perceived power over
you when they behave like retards in front of everyone etc. Have fun! :-P

~~~
qb45

      > if I wrote a blog about my experiences I'd become a laughing stock of the Internet
    
      So write a blog post on what lead you to such abundance :)
    

OK, so I officially admit to being a naive fool, as apparently somebody
downvoted even that.

> go deep into conversations with girls then eject to avoid boredom on both
> sides

That's a big mindfuck for attractive girls used to needy guys like this Google
manager desperately hitting on them whether it's fun or not. You may want to
cut them some slack if they go crazy after _that_ :) Generally, I think I
found Strauss' _The Game_ quite enlightening in this regard. It shows kinds of
bullshit and drama I'd never realized that women are going through.

------
yodsanklai
Is the term "sexual harassement" appropriate here?

It'd be interesting to hear the manager point of view on this issue. We have
only one side of the story here. Maybe the manager genuinely thought this was
a case of mutual flirting there.

Or flirting in the workplace = sexual harassment?

EDIT: [http://legal-
dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/sexual+harassm...](http://legal-
dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/sexual+harassment)

"A key part of the definition is the use of the word unwelcome. Unwelcome or
uninvited conduct or communication of a sexual nature is prohibited; welcome
or invited actions or words are not unlawful."

"The courts have generally concluded that a victim need not say or do a
particular thing to indicate unwelcomeness. Instead, a court will review all
of the circumstances to determine whether it was reasonably clear to the
harasser that the conduct was unwelcome. "

~~~
thedz
General rule of thumb is that a manager should never flirt or make advances to
his direct reports, because the power imbalance and potential for confusion
there is just too great.

Even if it was mutual, HR would probably have moved either her or him to a
different team if their relationship had progressed.

------
sheraz
Office environments today are like minefields. A man never knows when his next
step, word, or simple action will be misconstrued as harassment.

Hold a door? Thats harassment.

Wink ;-) in an email or IM? Thats harassment.

Tell an off-color joke? Thats harassment.

Complement female coworkers outfit? Thats harassment.

Stand too close in an elevator or inline at the canteen? Thats harassment.

Getting caught looking looking at a female coworkers boobs? Thats harassment.

The problem is that at the end of the day it is all up to how that female
employee "feels." If she is especially sensitive, then everyone around her has
to walk on eggshells.

Why can't anyone have a sense of humor about any of this?

I think I'm going to watch 9 to 5 with Dolly Parton tonight, just to remember
a time when people had a sense of humor about dealing with toxic office
culture.

~~~
hluska
Come on, that is bullshit. Simply, don't go out of your way to be an asshole.
Genuine compliments are fine. Leering is wrong. Sexually suggestive comments
or winks in emails are wrong. Don't treat anyone as a lesser form of life.
This is so fucking simple and it makes for a better work environment for all.

~~~
isnullorempty
So what are you supposed to do if you are attracted to someone at work, never
make a move? Women need to be more forgiving and take it as a compliment,
unless someone continues after a clear rejection (which is the definition of
harassment).

~~~
pc86
You do not need a "clear rejection" to make something harassment. If I've
never spoken to someone but I spend ten minutes a day staring at her chest,
that's harassment.

If I ask someone out, they say yes, and keep rescheduling 100 times, me
continuing to ask them out and not take the (subtle, non-obvious) hint is
still harassment.

~~~
isnullorempty
Looking at someone is harassment now? I must have harassed hundreds of women
then, What about thinking about them?

~~~
pc86
If you are leering at someone day in and day out that is harassment. Is that
really a difficult point to understand?

I'm not talking about a glance because a woman is wearing a new shirt. That's
not harassment, nobody ever said it was, and asserting otherwise is a straw
man. But ogling the hot girl every day _is_.

~~~
isnullorempty
Only if it's someone you aren't interested in, if a hot guy you liked made eye
contact a few times and smiled it would make your day. Am I right?

~~~
pc86
Well I'm a married heterosexual man, so the universe of "hot guys I like" is
pretty small.

And I don't know why you insist on continuing to argue against points I'm not
making. I'm saying continued unwanted advances = harassment, regardless of the
existence or lack of "clear rejection." If you flirt with someone at work
(what exactly are you being paid to do?) and they reciprocate, it's not
unwanted. If you do it once and they don't reciprocate, and you stop, it's not
continued.

~~~
isnullorempty
So it's not the act that's harassment, it's the relative level of
attractiveness of the person committing the act. Interesting.

~~~
pc86
You are either being willfully ignorant or a troll (or both). Nowhere did I
even intimate that attractiveness has anything to do with anything.

> _I 'm saying continued unwanted advances = harassment_

~~~
isnullorempty
Reciprocation will be more likely if the person making the advance is more
attractive relative to target of the advance. I'm sure there is a mathematical
formula for this.

------
sonabinu
How come the manager got away with just an apology?

------
thedz
1\. There's a lot of typical victim blaming, downplaying, and "why didn't she
just ask him to stop" comments on this submission, and it saddens me. Many of
the reactions here are a large part why so many women feel uncomfortable and
unwelcome in tech.

2\. This is partially why HR exists. HR isn't just there to handle payroll.
More people should do this, rather than let things fester or ignore things
that should be reported.

~~~
y04nn
Women should stand up and stop calling themselves victims.

------
fred_is_fred
HR ONLY EXISTS TO PROTECT THE COMPANY. They are not there for you or to
support you or to even support the truth. They will almost always without fail
support the manager over the IC. I feel like we shouldn't let people graduate
college until they know this. It sucks, but it's the truth.

------
auggierose
She admits in that piece that she shouldn't have laughed at jokes that made
her uncomfortable. So I suggest people/women keep themselves out of situations
like this by being honest and upfront with their colleagues in the first
place. If that doesn't work, go to HR. Simple as that.

------
voidr
> In hindsight and with more experience, I now can say, “Yes, I shouldn’t have
> tolerated even a little bit of misogyny or mistreatment. I should’ve
> immediately given him feedback that it made me feel extremely
> uncomfortable.” But regardless of my own reactions, the fact remains that
> sexual harassment should never have happened in the first place.

Women don't(in some cases: don't want) to realise that they can send out
misleading signals, which itself would not be an issue if they would clarify
their limits when a man does something inappropriate.

Men might do something physical without any bad intentions and women might
interpret them otherwise.

Here is how I see it:

If someone violates your intimate space, send a subtle signal that it's not
okay: move away, turn away or do a grumpy cat impression.

If the person does not understand the subtle signal, use words.

If words fail, contact the authorities.

I'd wish we could move away from the one dimensional "males in tech are
sexist" angle onto something more scientific. However, judging by the tile of
the post, we are galaxies away from that.

~~~
bobwaycott
> _Women don 't(in some cases: don't want) to realise that they can send out
> misleading signals, which itself would not be an issue if they would clarify
> their limits when a man does something inappropriate._

Sigh. This is nonsense.

Men don't, or don't want to, realize they frequently misinterpret so-called
"signals", or don't pay attention to them at all. There's a sad truth that
women _actually send signals men completely miss_ , while men _actually pick
up signals that were never sent_.

A woman should never have to expend extra effort to clarify their limits when
a man does something inappropriate. An easy way to guarantee this is to
constantly be mindful of your actions and _never do anything inappropriate_.

General rule of thumb as a man: treat physical interactions with women in the
workplace the same way you do other men in the workplace--inherently non-
sexual. Second rule of thumb: all that sexual conversation you might be used
to having with other men--don't do it with women.

It's for this reason that expecting the victim of unwanted behaviors to send
subtle signals first is pretty silly. If we're going to suggest anything,
let's not go with something subtle and ambiguous that is likely to be
misunderstood and misinterpreted by the person who is already behaving
inappropriately. Instead, let's opt for expecting something like this:

 _That 's fucking offensive. Don't ever fucking do that again. This is your
only warning._

Pretty clear. Straight to the point. Pony up an apology, or admit that you're
being a lecherous fuck.

Don't feel comfortable being direct? Go directly to HR.

Don't have HR? Give that "fuck off" directive a go. Worst case outcome? You
realize this isn't the place for you and move on.

\---

> _Men might do something physical without any bad intentions and women might
> interpret them otherwise._

Bullshit. Here are examples of "something physical without any bad intentions"
that are pretty impossible for women to misinterpret:

\- high fives

\- fist bumps

\- shaking hands

\- a pat/slap on the upper back or shoulders to say good job

\- a light punch/slap to the arm in an obviously playful way (probably only
best with well-known company that already trusts you)

Oh, and if you actually are paying attention and notice a woman recoil in any
way from these types of interactions: make a mental note to not do that again.
There's probably something in her past experiences that makes her
uncomfortable with this, and it really doesn't put you out at all to remain
mindful of that as you interact with her in the workplace.

Here are examples of "something physical" that cannot hide behind "no bad
intentions":

\- touching a woman anywhere, in any way, not covered above

\- kissing a woman anywhere, in any way

\- asking a woman to sit on your lap

\- positioning yourself in such a way next to a woman that you intentionally
make physical contact of an intimate sort

Why? _Because women can fucking tell when you 're making an advance_. And men
cannot hide behind a silly schoolboy's defense of "mixed signals".

After almost 35 years of life as a heterosexual man who doesn't have much
trouble with women, here are a few general rules and suggestions on how to
handle interactions with women to ensure you don't ever "misread" signals.
I'll give them in a half-assed order of importance.

General rules:

1\. Treat every woman with absolute respect as a person, not as a sex object,
every time.

2\. Don't interpret or estimate your _probability-of-fucking_.

3\. Trust that women don't really ever play "hard to get". _Ever_.

4\. Trust that women will make it very clear when they're inviting you to
increase physical intimacy.

5\. Understand that just because a woman smiles or is nice/polite/kind/open,
doesn't mean she is saying, "I want to fuck you."

6\. If in doubt, _ask_ don't _act_.

General suggestions:

1\. Allow a woman to set the tone of physical intimacy. Reply in like kind.

It's really, really, _really_ easy to tell if a woman is
physically/sexually/romantically interested in you as an adult. She will
typically do more than simply "send signals". If a woman trusts you enough to
touch you on the arm, it's probably okay to touch her arm. That doesn't mean
it's okay to rub her arm. If she touches you on the leg, it's probably okay to
touch her on the leg. But feel free to ask, cos there's no harm in that. She
might be doing it subconsciously, and you'll be able to alert her to this
without groping her leg and making her feel assaulted. If she's rubbing your
arms and legs, that's a pretty unmistakable indication that she's feeling
safe, trusting, and probably okay with you returning the same level of
physical touch. But that doesn't mean you should grab her breasts and jam your
tongue into her mouth.

At the club on the dance floor? Don't walk up and start grinding some woman
with your junk. If the lady wants to grind, she'll make the move. And then she
might want to go do the same on some other guy. C'est la vie. Why? _Because
she 's often just out to have a good time, not find someone to go home with_.
If she _is_ looking for someone to go home with, follow the directives above
and you'll be certain to never find yourself the perpetrator of a sexual
assault or harassing behavior.

2\. Just because you like feeling like a piece of meat, doesn't mean she does.

I have experienced, on more than a few occasions, a relatively unknown female
coworker telling me I have a nice ass, or some other such physical attribute.
Cool. Flattering. My response: laugh it off. I don't turn around and say,
"Well, your ass is damn fine, too." Accept the compliment. For whatever
reason, some women think it's okay to do that. And they can be the same women
who would be offended if you did it to them. Big deal. That's how it is. They
know when they're attractive, _because every fucking dude in the world tells
them so_. Don't ever be that guy--unless you're actually in a relationship
with her; then, by all means, tell her all the time. Just steer clear of
making comments to a woman in the workplace about her appearance. 100%
guaranteed success rate there.

3\. Physical intimacy doesn't belong in the workplace.

This one's pretty damn easy. Even when I've been in a serious relationship
with a coworker, we never brought that into the workplace. There's no need to
kiss in the office. Or have my girlfriend sit on my lap. Or touch her in an
intimate spot. It's the fucking workplace. Treat it as such. All the more fun
when you get home later. It can wait.

\---

I seriously cannot believe we're still having this conversation in 2016.

~~~
voidr
> Men don't, or don't want to, realize they frequently misinterpret so-called
> "signals", or don't pay attention to them at all. There's a sad truth that
> women actually send signals men completely miss,

The sad truth, is that (some) men are bad at receiving signals and (some)
women are bad at sending them.

> while men actually pick up signals that were never sent.

Some women(and men) subconsciously send out signals that can be interpreted as
an invitation, especially if we are talking about people from different
cultures.

> After almost 35 years of life as a heterosexual man who doesn't have much
> trouble with women, here are a few general rules and suggestions on how to
> handle interactions with women to ensure you don't ever "misread" signals.
> I'll give them in a half-assed order of importance.

Some people actually do have a problem with reading other people. There are a
lot of them in tech.

> I seriously cannot believe we're still having this conversation in 2016.

Society is moving constantly and there are problems that will just never go
away, because it's just hardwired to our monkey brain.

I am in no way excusing sexism and harassment, however I see that reality is
more complicated than "men evil, women good".

If we go down the path of stigmatizing men and come up with more severe laws
to punish them, the divide that caused this mess will only get bigger.

------
isnullorempty
A lot of time sexual harassment == someone i'm not attracted to flirting with
me. If it was a 6 foot handsome guy then it would be highlight of the week.

------
bontoJR
This problem happens in every industry, tourism and hospitality is full of
these cases as far as I heard even by people I personally know.

The Silicon Valley situation is more visible for the simple reason that
diversity is still a problem, so having so few girls makes this a huge problem
and a barrier hard to overcome for women. I feel truly sorry for all the
female colleagues having troubles with bosses and colleagues harassing or also
bullying them (have you ever heard somebody saying: "she's a girl, let's give
her this task b/c is very trivial").

~~~
wavefunction
>girls

You should start by referring to female workers in SV as women.

------
leaveyou
What an uplifting story. Sexual harassment is a serious problem affecting
women all over the world. I'm glad that more and more people speak up.

~~~
exo762
If you think that women are somehow immune to this behaviour you are very
naive. Stereotype of older women superior hitting on young men has not
appeared from thin air.

~~~
leaveyou
From my wife's experience, older women superiors are way too busy making the
professional life of younger women a living hell and they don't have much time
and energy left to harass young men.

------
ordbajsare
>In that week, I was kissed on the cheek, asked to sit on my manager’s lap...
>Protect yourself and others. Report it to HR.

The correct response is to punch him in the face, defend your personal space
with extreme prejudice.

~~~
gilgoomesh
I assume you're kidding but if you're not: you run the risk of being fired for
physical assault, whether or not you're in the right.

In any case, as reported in the article, people in that situation are more
likely to be paralysed by shock and doubt. A blunt, self-assured response in
the moment is unlikely.

------
Shic
ew em

------
rplnt
> a company well-known for its “Do no evil” culture

This was their motto a decade back and what they are doing does not reflect it
even remotely. I'm pretty sure they are not known for "do no evil" culture,
just that the slogan is tied to them somehow.

~~~
skj
That's not the slogan. It's "don't be evil."

"Don't do evil" is impossible for a corporation with 50k employees. "Don't be
evil" is a worthy ideal to strive for.

