

Programmer Salaries in SF, by Language (2009) - nearestneighbor
http://www.indeed.com/salary?q1=Programmer%2C+Java&l1=San+Francisco%2C+CA&q2=Programmer%2C+C%2B%2B&l2=San+Francisco%2C+CA&q3=Programmer%2C+C&l3=San+Francisco%2C+CA&q4=Programmer%2C+C%23&l4=San+Francisco%2C+CA&q5=Programmer%2C+Python&l5=San+Francisco%2C+CA&q6=Programmer%2C+Ruby&l6=San+Francisco%2C+CA&q7=Programmer%2C+Perl&l7=San+Francisco%2C+CA&q8=Programmer%2C+Basic&l8=San+Francisco%2C+CA&q9=Programmer%2C+Fortran&l9=San+Francisco%2C+CA&q10=Programmer%2C+Cobol&l10=San+Francisco%2C+CA&q11=Programmer%2C+Matlab&l11=San+Francisco%2C+CA&tm=1

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vlad
Like other users, I really, really wanted this submission to be accurate,
because I am interested in salary information myself. However, that didn't
stop me from questioning it.

I've noticed that few submitters or commenters ever take a few minutes to
question how the data might have been collected and/or measured before
contributing.

Here's a simple way to "test" results to see if any "bugs" exist. The user
input could be misleading, the algorithms could be way off, or whatever. There
is a lot of statistical terminology describing ways a conclusion could be
flawed. Is the article is on the front page because it is accurate, or simply
because users found it was novel? Is any of the results worth a damn?

It's very simple to replace Programmer with Engineer to mix things up. This
changed results as follows:

C: (-24K), from 118K to 94K

Matlab: (+33K), from 70K to 103K

Also, the gap between Python and Ruby salaries increases from 8K to 19K.

Python: (-4K), 92K to 88K

Ruby: (+7K), from 100K to 107K

[http://www.indeed.com/salary?q1=Engineer%2C+Java&l1=San+...](http://www.indeed.com/salary?q1=Engineer%2C+Java&l1=San+Francisco%2C+CA&q2=Engineer%2C+C%2B%2B&l2=San+Francisco%2C+CA&q3=Engineer%2C+C&l3=San+Francisco%2C+CA&q4=Engineer%2C+C%23&l4=San+Francisco%2C+CA&q5=Engineer%2C+Python&l5=San+Francisco%2C+CA&q6=Engineer%2C+Ruby&l6=San+Francisco%2C+CA&q7=Engineer%2C+Perl&l7=San+Francisco%2C+CA&q8=Engineer%2C+Basic&l8=San+Francisco%2C+CA&q9=Engineer%2C+Fortran&l9=San+Francisco%2C+CA&q10=Engineer%2C+Cobol&l10=San+Francisco%2C+CA&q11=Engineer%2C+Matlab&l11=San+Francisco%2C+CA&tm=1)

Thus, instead of trying to derive meaning from nonsense, it's better to move
on.

EDIT: The submitter of this article has "machine learning" in the about
section of his or her profile. Isn't that statistics?

EDIT2: And if you unclick "search titles only" for my query, then Java, C++,
C#, Python, Ruby, and Perl salaries are all 100K +/- $2K (99K to 102K.) One
could probably create a query that shows anything they wanted...

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simanyay
Oh, according to
[http://www.indeed.com/jobs?q=title:(Programmer,+Python)&...](http://www.indeed.com/jobs?q=title:\(Programmer,+Python\)&l=San+Francisco,+CA)
these stats for Python programmers came from _four_ job postings with five
postings total (I guess the fifth one is without salary).

Not too impressive.

~~~
nearestneighbor
You can edit or remove the location. Better statistics <-> less specificity.

~~~
aaronblohowiak
What does <-> mean in your post?

~~~
derefr
Biconditional/implies in both directions?

~~~
nearestneighbor
Yep. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First-
order_logic#Logical_symbo...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First-
order_logic#Logical_symbols)

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DrJokepu
I wonder why C programmers make so much compared to other developers. Prbably
because they are experts in some very specific domain and they happen to need
C to fulfil their needs; they're really network stack developers,
cryptohgraphy developers, compiler developers etc. So simply learning C
wouldn't get you those salaries, both the fact that they use C and that they
earn that much in comparison are the consequences of them being experts.
Another example of correlation not being causation.

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pg
This data looks like noise.

~~~
rudyfink
I'm suspicious. It has a salary profile for both a "hitman"
[http://www.indeed.com/salary?q1=hitman&l1=San+Francisco%...](http://www.indeed.com/salary?q1=hitman&l1=San+Francisco%2C+CA)
and "God"
[http://www.indeed.com/salary?q1=God+&l1=San+Francisco%2C...](http://www.indeed.com/salary?q1=God+&l1=San+Francisco%2C+CA).

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aaronblohowiak
This should be adjusted for years of experience.

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seasoup
Which javascript library does it pay the most to know?

[http://www.indeed.com/salary?q1=Programmer%2C+prototype&...](http://www.indeed.com/salary?q1=Programmer%2C+prototype&l1=San+Francisco%2C+CA&q2=Programmer%2C+jquery&l2=San+Francisco%2C+CA&q3=Programmer%2C+mootools&l3=San+Francisco%2C+CA&q4=Programmer%2C+dojo&l4=San+Francisco%2C+CA&q5=Programmer%2C+yui&l5=San+Francisco%2C+CA&q6=Programmer%2C+gwt&l6=San+Francisco%2C+CA&q7=Programmer%2C+extjs&l7=San+Francisco%2C+CA&tm=1)

~~~
paddy_m
If that is your question, I would hope that you make much less than the
average salary for that library.

~~~
derwiki
Like it or not, Javascript is one of the most important languages around. It's
also the language that people feel they can code without knowing -- hence all
the shoddy JS out there. While it's not perfect, JS frameworks help, and I
think someone should be looked down upon for wanting to know which one is the
best use of their time.

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nearestneighbor
Same for NYC: <http://preview.tinyurl.com/nycsalaries>

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dfrankow
Same link for Minneapolis. Retains the bump for C.

[http://www.indeed.com/salary?q1=Programmer%2C+Java&l1=Mi...](http://www.indeed.com/salary?q1=Programmer%2C+Java&l1=Minneapolis%2C+MN&q2=Programmer%2C+C%2B%2B&l2=Minneapolis%2C+MN&q3=Programmer%2C+C&l3=Minneapolis%2C+MN&q4=Programmer%2C+C%23&l4=Minneapolis%2C+MN&q5=Programmer%2C+Python&l5=Minneapolis%2C+MN&q6=Programmer%2C+Ruby&l6=Minneapolis%2C+MN&q7=Programmer%2C+Perl&l7=Minneapolis%2C+MN&q8=Programmer%2C+Basic&l8=Minneapolis%2C+MN&q9=Programmer%2C+Fortran&l9=Minneapolis%2C+MN&q10=Programmer%2C+Cobol&l10=Minneapolis%2C+MN&q11=Programmer%2C+Matlab&l11=Minneapolis%2C+MN&tm=1)

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j_baker
I feel sorry for the Basic programmer making $49,000 a year in San Francisco.

~~~
catch23
FYI, BGI in San Francisco (large institutional investor firm) uses visual
basic on their core trading platform (handles all instrument classes). Their
visual basic developers there make more than 100k. Their bonuses are big too
-- 50% of their salary usually.

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spitfire
I removed the location and replaced COBOL with Ada - $133K national average
apparently.

All of the jobs require secret security clearance too. Sounds more interesting
than a webapp.

~~~
ShabbyDoo
I think a janitor with top secret clearance can make $50K.

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strlen
Wouldn't this data be seriously skewed by not including Silicon Valley where a
lot of developers in San Francisco commute to? Silicon Valley has much less
financial companies, most of established tech companies, many start-ups?
[Edit: added this] I'd imagine the (more established tech companies, less
financial companies) should seriously skew the supply/demand for developers.

Of course, the data is noisy and many of the samples are statistically
insignificant.

~~~
nostrademons
I just did listings for Mountain View and they were basically the same. Off by
maybe $1-2K. The language pattern was the same: C had the highest salaries,
then C++, Python, Ruby were all fairly high, Java was a bit less, Basic was
the least.

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tybris
Are there really programming jobs where you only use one language? I'd prefer
to work with people who use the right tool for the job. I work with
C/Java/Perl on a daily basis and occasionally modify Ruby or Python. I've also
used quite a lot of C# in the past.

In general, I have no language preferences. It's just C# for Windows front-
ends, Java for management layer, Perl for configuration, C for core software.

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herdrick
Should have used sparklines. Also, all that variation over only 18 months
doesn't inspire confidence.

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apsec112
Loads of these "statistics" are nonsense, don't pay any attention.

[http://www.indeed.com/salary?q1=Corporate+lawyer&l1=New+...](http://www.indeed.com/salary?q1=Corporate+lawyer&l1=New+York+City%2C+NY)

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adatta02
[http://www.indeed.com/salary?q1=bush+league&l1=](http://www.indeed.com/salary?q1=bush+league&l1=)

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jasonw22
Some of the data is very different if you substitute "Developer" or "Engineer"
for "Programmer".

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simanyay
Wait, what? Cobol in San Francisco?

~~~
gaius
Where there's banking, there's COBOL.

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ggrot
matlab?

~~~
cema
Why not? Scientific models, statistical calculations, etc.

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pwnstigator
No one starts out anymore in C, but it's still widely useful in a lot of
domains. So most C programmers:

* are multilingual,

* have a fair amount of programming experience, and

* have ostensible experience with a difficult language.

Out of curiosity, is there enough data to draw inferences regarding functional
languages like SBCL, Ocaml, Haskell, and Clojure?

~~~
jazzychad
False. I started out in C straight out of school 3 years ago. Like you say, it
depends on the domain, but C is still used all over the place. I loved every
minute of it (before I left my job to do my startup), but then again I may be
insane :)

~~~
pwnstigator
Were you programming before that job, though?

What I meant to say is that few people start programming in C. It's usually
Java, Python, or Ruby these days. Scheme occasionally.

~~~
jazzychad
Ah, I see what you meant: "No one starts learning to program in C anymore,"
correct? I thought you meant, "no one starts out their career in C." In that
case, yes, I started programming in BASIC when I was very young, then several
other languages, and _then_ C during college.

