
How the World's Most Difficult Bouldering Problems Get Made (2015) - cribbles
https://www.outsideonline.com/2017711/path-beta-flash-resistance-route-setters
======
pierrec
I think this article doesn't really explain what the setters are focusing on
here, and it's actually quite interesting. When setting for a bouldering
competition, the problems you create must satisfy very precise constraints:
namely, create good separation between competitors, but still be entertaining
for spectators. Separation is the hard part. In finals you have a handful of
competitors doing a handful of problems, and the perfect separation you're
going for is something like this:

    
    
        1st place: 4 tops
        2st place: 3 tops
        3rd place: 2 tops
        ...
    

Of course this rarely ever happens, but it's approximately what you're aiming
for. It's hard. You have to know the exact level of the competitors that are
participating, and fine-tune the difficulty of the problems so that they will
be nicely separated, preferably without depending on height/reach or overly
specific strengths. Even world-class setters sometimes fail at this, for
example creating a world cup where almost every finalist gets 1 top, leaving
only the number of attempts (or zones) to separate them. There's still
technically separation, but it's catastrophically frustrating for spectators
and competitors, and the results will be less likely to reflect each
competitor's actual climbing skill. With all that, you also want the problems
to have creative and interesting moves that get the crowd going wild (but
that's really the fun part of setting). Source: I'm a routesetter, both
regular gym climbs and competitions.

~~~
hailk
> preferably without depending on height/reach or overly specific strengths.

How do you attain this? From an amateur hobbyist eye it seems that bouldering
as a sport favours lean + tall builds -> Reach + light-weight advantage. How
do you set routes that disadvantage this type?

~~~
jasonkester
Surprisingly, there's a bit of a bell curve, maxing out at 5'9" being the
ideal height. But it only makes about a single grade of difference.

Short folk have incredible strength to weight ratios and fine motor control
from short levers. Tall people can reach farther, but can't apply the
necessary force or use tiny holds as well. It all evens out in the long run,
though you'll see big differences for individual lines that target a single
style.

My wife and I climb at the same level despite a foot of height difference. She
stays away from my long throws and compression problems. I try not to feel the
tiny crimps on her projects, and it all works out in the end.

~~~
hailk
Agreed with tiny holds causing problems. But I presumed it was a grip strength
problem, which still doesn't take away from my advantage as a tall-leaner.
Though it could also be because I must've not done challenging routes.

~~~
jasonkester
It is. But again, with longer fingers you need more strength to produce the
same force at the fingertip (because you're applying muscle force to the short
end of the lever). Combined with the extra weight from the rest of a longer
body, it makes pulling on small holds a lot harder for tall folk.

But then we can often simply reach past those small holds to the big jug
beyond, so it tends to work itself out.

~~~
saiya-jin
I can confirm this - as 188cm tall guy, even if I can reach further, the
strain i get on my fingers from my relatively heavy body is taking its toll on
the fingers. I can't climb few days in a row, would end up with tendinitis.

It doesn't help that I have a 'flexible type' of the body (can bend like
crazy, but tendons/ligament injuries across whole body are much more common).
And I started with climbing when I was 30, unlike many in their teens who seem
to climb much harder without big effort.

If I would be a competitive person, I would be very frustrated with my little
climbing progress. But instead I enjoy the constant challenge, the uneasiness
of hard routes, the mental push through in cruxes. As they say, life begins
where comfort zone ends. Overall, best sport for me for the warm days (rock
experience is vastly superior to gym one), and ski touring/alpinism for the
cold ones.

------
justinator
If one likes the "bouldering is problem solving like programming is problem
solving" paradigm, you may enjoy training tools like the Moon Board, which is
an array of holds spaced out uniformly with problems programmed in using LEDs
(use only the holds where the LEDs are on). You can share the same problem
around the world- anywhere there's another moonboard, and collaborate that
way.

[https://www.moonboard.com](https://www.moonboard.com)

------
sixo
In case anyone isn't already familiar with indoor bouldering, here's a great
competition video:
[https://youtu.be/uHlV_nLLXLc?t=49](https://youtu.be/uHlV_nLLXLc?t=49)

Cannot recommend bouldering enough. Problem-solving minds tend to _love_ it.

~~~
justinator
I'd recommend anyone curious about bouldering get into simply top rope
climbing first. Bouldering is HARD which isn't so much the real problem, but
it can also be frustrating. Some problem solving strategies like throwing
yourself into the problem (metaphorically)can result in nasty injuries and a
short bouldering career.

Get some easy climbing mileage!

~~~
jasonkester
_Bouldering is HARD_

It's as hard as you want it to be.

Here in Fontainebleau, there are bouldering circuits in the forest set for the
level of our three year old. (Seriously. Painted with little pink hearts next
to the arrows).

They get used, too. Even for me, climbing pretty hard these days, I'll often
run off and do an easy Blue or even easier Orange circuit just for the joy of
movement over 40-80 nice problems, few of which would even get a V0 if you
translated the grade across.

The difficulty scale goes as far as you want in either direction.

~~~
hailk
Can we compare difficulty levels with children? They seem to be naturally
better at climbing at that age. Faster recovery period and their tendons and
ligaments seem to be able to handle their small weights well.

~~~
justinator
I bet there's a lot of things going on:

* children are smaller, so holds in general are proportionally larger

* children may have a different lower and upper body ratio (they've got shorter legs than adults), making them better suited for climbing.

* Better flexibility/mobility

* don't have to be (re)taught how to play

* perchance better strength/weight ratio

* relatively fearless

* usually can find a enthusiastic peer group that isn't so centered around competition/jealousy (similar to, "knows how to play")

* A lot of kids I see at the gym have parents that have been climbing half their own lives, so they've got incredible coaching from a trusted source, and an amazing cheerleading section. They'll be climbing _most_ of their lives, if they decided to keep it up.

The only real detriment may be that problems in a gym setting aren't always
made for their sized bodies, so some of the moves may be a bit reachy. A
children's general creativity could allow them to solve such issues though.

------
jimnotgym
I'm a fat-old-man in climbing terms. I still prefer the mental challenge of
trad leading (although I haven't done much recently) to bouldering. The zen
like state of staying calm while placing gear that your life depends on is
quite something to me. Whereas bouldering is an art form of movement... and
one I suck at...but it never appealed to me in the same way

~~~
bacon_waffle
Same here. Plus, when I was more in to that scene, it seemed like a
disproportionate number of folks got injuries from bouldering vs free
climbing.

~~~
sandworm101
Yup. It is vastly more dangerous than trad or even sport climbing. No
rope+fall=bad, even if only a few feet off the deck. Bouldering also leads to
pushing a vertical boundry, exactly where does bouldering become free soloing?
I also worry for the boulderer/gym rat who's physical abilities are not
matched with the technical knowhow that comes from trad.

------
mholt
I recently got into climbing (+ bouldering). Although I get super bored at
regular gyms, I never bore of climbing, I think, because it's like programming
-- for the body. Problem solving applied to an element that is both sociable
and physical.

~~~
natmaka
I also got bored at regular gyms, and realized that combat-oriented martial
arts may be the ultimate problem-solving challenges. You have to muster all
your intellectual and physical capabilities "against" an intelligent opponent
who acts/reacts "in realtime", but also is prepared to it (the boulders layout
is carefully crafted beforehand, but it doesn't react!). Jiu-jitsu may be one
of the most adequate because it seems not as dangerous as striking arts
(albeit by becoming competitive one may gain serious back-related aches or
even injuries).

~~~
hailk
Agreed with the combat-oriented sports being the ultimate problem-solving
challenge. Used to box (still occasional do), have never obtained the same
technical satisfaction anywhere else. There are so many different facets to
it. Ring generalship, creating angles, stances that gain or lose out on
defensive or offensive capabilities, psychological game by use of feints and
disruptive rhythms. It's not called the sweet science for nothing. Should hold
true for other combat sports as well.

------
codetrotter
Climbing is a lot of fun. It is talked about on HN occasionally but IMO not
often enough. Hope to see more submissions about climbing on HN!

Oh and if anyone ITT is in the proximity of Gjøvik, Norway (slim chance) and
would like to climb, message me on Mastodon. @codetrotter@vis.social

I am a bit out of shape but I belay safely and communicate well and that’s
what matters the most when we climb single pitch, isn’t it ;)

Though of course it is preferable to climb with someone on about the same
level to minimize the amount of switching back and forth between routes.

------
vertline3
Bouldered a bit in college, feel like code challenge sites like Project Euler
are like a programmer form of bouldering. you fail a few times, gain an
insight, make some progress, finally get it, then feel a big rush of
accomplishment.

~~~
labbeth
42+ years old, climber since 2 years here, _progammer_ since +30y.

Interesting comparaison, but bouldering problems relies on physical-traits
that are harder to move up than the _psychological_ -traits needed in Project
Euler. ( think of size, balance, synchronicity ... ).

... but OK some PE are now too hard for me. Training during college would
change the game.

~~~
vertline3
Yeah I struggled with grip after a point, would use the hangboard all the
time. My frame is thin. Also just a lot of understanding how to move is hard
to get.

------
Konnstann
As much as I like the article, the title is flat-out incorrect. The most
difficult bouldering problems aren't found inside a gym, they are out in
nature. World Cup problems average V10ish, whereas the top climbers project
V16 outside.

~~~
betenoire
It literally says those things. It says boulder problems go up to v16, and
that they aim for v10 at the comp.

~~~
jimnotgym
To save other Europeans a Google. V10 = 7c+ font. V16 = 8c+ font.

Both grades I don't even aspire to!

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grade_(bouldering)#Comparisons...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grade_\(bouldering\)#Comparisons_of_bouldering_grades)

~~~
avs733
To save those who don't climb...

I've climbed most of my life...

I boulder three times a week and run 30 miles worth of trails a week . I can
do pullups from my finger tips on a 'hangboard' (it's a training tool).

I climbed a V5 last week and was so happy I nearly cried.

These people are _freaks_ in the most awe inspiring and amazing way I can
possibly imagine.

Climbing competitions are worth watching just for the sheer amazement at what
the human body can be trained to do. I use them at the beginning of classes
because students usually just stop talking and watch in stunned silence.

~~~
air7
> These people are freaks in the most awe inspiring and amazing way I can
> possibly imagine.

I went to youtube to find out what you mean. Didn't need to search for long.
Here's one example. I don't know what grade this is but the climb is
definitely freaky.

[https://youtu.be/4QrvLoxFAM4?t=180](https://youtu.be/4QrvLoxFAM4?t=180)

~~~
Fricken
I'm not sure there's a sport that puts so much emphasis on pushing the upper
limits of human strength within a single muscle group (the fingers). Check out
this video of Jan Hojer training, it really makes it clear just how
ridiculously, absurdly, otherworldly strong elite boulderers can be:

[https://youtu.be/DFojqoAfJ7g](https://youtu.be/DFojqoAfJ7g)

And in top competition bouldering the problems aren't just physically hard,
they are also fiendishly difficult puzzles to solve.

~~~
japhyr
Those pinky levers are just amazing!

------
evanriley
I was lucky enough to have and Outdoor Education class & a great teacher in
High School that got me into climbing, which turned into a love for
Bouldering.

Its one of the things I try to get all of my friends into who want to do
something more active in their life or just something fun. Too me its the
perfect balance of physical exertion and problem solving. The community is
also (for the most part) great to be apart.

If anyone has any questions about the sport I would love to answer them.

------
enraged_camel
I'm the founder and organizer of the Bouldering in Austin meetup. We are a
little over a year old and recently surpassed 500 members.

If any Austinites want to try it out, either as beginners or experienced
climbers, give me a holler. :)

[https://www.meetup.com/Bouldering-in-
Austin/](https://www.meetup.com/Bouldering-in-Austin/)

~~~
scarecrowbob
I climb at Crux... if you see an awkward bald-ish dude with a horseshoe
mustache in the rope canyon feel free to say howdy.

