
Amazon sues former AWS VP over non-compete deal - mindhash
https://www.geekwire.com/2017/amazon-sues-former-aws-vp-non-compete-deal-smartsheet-calls-claim-new-product-chief-enormous-overreach/amp/
======
Twirrim
Amazon's non-compete is overly broad and sweeping, and arguably stops anyone
from going to a company that even uses cloud technologies. It's written in a
way that allows the court to decide just how far it can actually be applied.

As you'll notice from the article, Amazon seems to try to enforce the non-
compete every few years, I'm guessing mostly as a message to existing Amazon
employees. All I've every seen it do is piss off their employees.

That said, it's totally possible to leave Amazon and move on to an actual
competitor. You just have to get lawyers involved. Oracle's Bare Metal Cloud
org, that I work for, is made up of roughly 75% ex-aws staff (Amazon has been
hemorrhaging staff to Oracle because better pay, and way better working
conditions) Lawyers on both sides end up negotiating back and forth and you
just end up not working on anything related to what you were working on for
AWS.

~~~
epistasis
>(Amazon has been hemorrhaging staff to Oracle because better pay, and way
better working conditions)

I may not be totally tuned into Oracle's reputation, but this seems incredibly
damning to Amazon.

~~~
Twirrim
> I may not be totally tuned into Oracle's reputation, but this seems
> incredibly damning to Amazon.

I can't speak to the rest of Oracle, my only experience is from here in the
bare metal cloud org, but it's:

1) Better pay.

2) Better hours (you don't keep having to work ridiculous hours to keep
afloat.) In over a year I've done barely a dozen late nights, and at least
half of those were totally unavoidable. In every case management has
strenuously forced me to recoup my time. One thing I really hated was watching
staff just constantly burn out in various teams across AWS (I was lucky, my
team in AWS was actually one of the good ones.)

3) An obsession with the operational burden (easier to operate == more
resilient platform, happier staff and happier customers).

4) Middle management who actively push back, and a senior management tier who
both listen, and juggle staff around as appropriate to ensure things get done
on time. AWS is a constant feature mill, and it comes across in the marketing
language etc. This is only fuelled because middle managers right across the
org are either unwilling to say no, or have no authority to do so. From the
differences I've seen with managers there, it really seems like the former.
Some managers really do make a huge difference (and indeed, the only reason I
entertained the possibility of joining Oracle was because I knew several good
managers who'd moved across)

~~~
dopamean
I must be pretty out of the loop on things but I had no idea (though probably
should have suspected) that Oracle had a competing product. Is it successful?
Who uses it?

~~~
Twirrim
[https://cloud.oracle.com/en_US/bare-
metal](https://cloud.oracle.com/en_US/bare-metal), launched last year. Full
IaaS Compute platform with both bare metal and VM offerings, LBs, VPN, DBaaS
(complete with full RAC and Exadata offerings), and so on.

I'm not sure what I can / cannot say regarding customers we're picking up.
Don't want to mess things up for the marketing team :)

Some public material, of which more is bound to be forthcoming:
[https://www.oracle.com/uk/customers/yellowdog-1-iaas.html](https://www.oracle.com/uk/customers/yellowdog-1-iaas.html)

~~~
eloff
$5.40/hour to rent one of these bare-metal bad boys:

OCPU: 36 Memory: 512GB Local Disk: 28.8TB NVMe SSD

That easily mops the floor with AWS and Google on price/performance ratio for
running high end database servers. I suppose that shouldn't come as a huge
surprise that Oracle's cloud offering would be good for running databases.

~~~
phonon
x1.16xlarge is 64 threads (174.5 ECU), 1 TB RAM, 2 TB SSD, for $6.669 per
Hour.

x1.32xlarge is double in every respect.

i3.16xlarge is 64 threads (200 ECU), 488 GB RAM, 15 TB SSD, $4.992 per hour.

Seems competitive.

~~~
travem
It's competitive if you don't actually need the 28.8TB NVMe SSD. If you
actually need that much storage capacity and speed you are looking at
provisioning 2 i3.16xlarge's and hoping your application can be distributed
across multiple instances.

~~~
phonon
Sure, and if you need 1 or 2 TB of RAM, Oracle won't be able to help, and
that's a much harder parameter to work around...

Anyway, my point was that it didn't, IMHO, "easily mop the floor with AWS on
price/performance ratio".

------
jimbokun
"Last year, an attempt was made to pass legislation that would have banned
non-compete agreements in Washington state, but the bill stalled after
business groups, including the Washington Technology Industry Association and
the Association of Washington Business, opposed the bill."

This is a perfect encapsulation of political reality in 21st century USA.

Corporations run every aspect of our government, no one else has a meaningful
voice.

~~~
treehau5
What if the people didn't purchase products or services from these said
corporations who do these awful things? Ultimately it always comes back to us
and our complacency. We would _like_ for things to be different, but we like
our conveniences more.

~~~
theobon
The "vote with your dollars" narrative is becoming a common way of dismissing
peoples concerns without consideration. It reinforces the plutocracy. I voted
by voting!

Purchasing from companies whose ethics you agree with makes sense but that
isn't going to stop lobbying or change how laws are passed. That battle will
only be won through politics and politicians. Get involved politically and/or
hold your politicians accountable.

~~~
Frondo
Yeah, exactly that. "Vote with your dollars" moves your political power to the
capitalist consumerist realm, and strips it of so much of its power.

Using food safety as a simple example: vote for food safety regulations (vote
with your vote) or don't buy from companies that poison people through
negligence (vote with your dollars). Which world would you rather take your
elderly grandparents out to dinner in?

Voting with your dollars is a pale shadow of your actual voice in a democratic
society.

~~~
treehau5
> Voting with your dollars is a pale shadow of your actual voice in a
> democratic society.

Reality speaks otherwise. Money gives you a voice. That's why lobbying exists.

------
driverdan
This is nothing new. Amazon has attempted to enforce their non-compete clauses
again and again, often losing but causing financial burdens on the individuals
and their new employers. Just another reason why you shouldn't work for
Amazon.

~~~
austenallred
It also makes former Amazon employees radioactive; if you're an employer and
you know you might get sued by hiring someone from Amazon, you might pass.

~~~
knd775
Hopefully it works differently than that. As in, prospective employees don't
want to be 'infected' by Amazon, so they don't start working there.

Obviously this is a long shot, but if this happened often enough to become a
problem for Amazon, they might remove the non-compete clause from their
employment contracts.

------
Bedon292
I recently changed jobs, and feared my old employer could (but not necessarily
would) come after me for non-compete. So, first my new Employer's lawyer
looked over everything and said I should be good. Then I hired my own lawyer,
to do the same thing (and look over the new employers docs as well) just to
cover myself independently. And finally I got in writing that my new employer
would cover any legal action pursued by my old employer, just in case.

I would highly recommend the same to anyone else. Absolutely worth the time
and money to be safe and covered if you still live / work somewhere they are
enforceable.

~~~
justdan
Do you think telling a potential employer that you've signed a non-compete
could hurt your chances though?

~~~
Bedon292
That's a good question. I don't think so, not in the DC area at least. They
are standard around here. I think its expected that you have, and will sign a
new one with the new employer anyways.

During my my interview process one of the potential employers even asked to
see any non-compete and NDAs that I had with my current employer, before they
would move forward. Because they want to make sure they are in the clear too.

I suppose it could hurt in some situations, but I feel its best to be open and
honest about the situation. If you are changing careers, you may be safe to
not bring it up, but otherwise at least talk to your own lawyer.

------
wyc

        “When we looked at their offerings and what Smartsheet does, it is two
        totally different worlds,” said Mader. Using Amazon’s logic, Mader said
        that Smartsheet would be a viewed as a competitor to Amazon Prime because
        both services make people more productive.
    

If this interpretation is correct (take with salt as it comes from the
defendant's side), then it sounds like an attempt to debar this person from
working on any technology at all.

~~~
leggomylibro
That's exactly what it is; Amazon has its fingers in so many pots that it can
claim anything is related to their area of business. In a sane world, this
sort of consideration would be strictly confined to what the employee actually
worked on for the company, not what the company broadly works on.

~~~
bluGill
Shareholders for Amazon should be concerned that Amazon is letting their
employees know too much about plans in other divisions.

It is fair to say a VP knows the DETAILED plans of that division enough that
doing the same thing for a competitor should be a problem. However VP
experience should let him go to a competitor in a different division as his
knowledge of the plans should be vague enough as to not matter.

------
bla2
Certainly makes Amazon a less desirable employer for me.

~~~
jnwatson
Exactly. I had genuinely considered working there. Cancel that idea.

~~~
lovelle
me too.

------
dbot
Non-competes are tricky: they essentially try to extend trade secret
protections to information that people know (which is hard to track), instead
of information that's written down (which is easy to track, see Waymo). It
seems most people on HN are fine with protecting the latter, but not the
former.

In my opinion, a non-compete is something that needs to be separately
negotiated and compensated, rather than lumping it into "employment." If you
agree to a non-compete, you are paid $X in exchange. If you violate the non-
compete, you must pay $X back (and there could be a negotiated multiplier,
e.g. $3X). In the absence of agreement, the legal default should be 1:1. If
you are paid nothing for a non-compete, it is unenforceable. If you are paid
$1, you must pay $1, and so on.

This gives each side an opportunity to value and agree upon the non-compete
apart from the job itself. Eventually, most industries would settle on
standards.

~~~
jakozaur
In many countries (e.g. Poland) non-competes are only legal if you pay X%
(e.g. in Poland it is 25%) of salary for as long as you signed non-compete
after your employment ends.

This is still not ideal. The best is to ban non-competes or make them even
more expensive.

From economical perspective for ecosystem, non-competes are bad. They reduce
the competition and may force some talented person to be underutilized below
potential. Plus open whole class of abuse. "Our flipping burger strategy is so
unique that you couldn't do it elsewhere"

[https://www.nytimes.com/2014/10/15/upshot/when-the-guy-
makin...](https://www.nytimes.com/2014/10/15/upshot/when-the-guy-making-your-
sandwich-has-a-noncompete-clause.html)

------
drawkbox
Non-competes... anti-worker, anti-innovation, anti-freedom, anti-competition,
anti-freemarket, anti-independence, anti-entrepreneurial, anti-business (to
the ones wanting the skilled labor not the ones the employee left because it
is a free employment market) and fully anti-American.

Non competes treat employees like they have no value and are mere slaves or
sharecroppers.

I especially like the ones where you have a contract that is for 3-6 months
and they want a non-compete for multiple years.

How about this, if a company really wants a non-compete, then make sure they
are paid fully above salary, otherwise this is just ownership of skilled
labor.

------
rpazyaquian
So, random question: if you end up interviewing for Amazon at some point, is
it a faux-pas to bring up legal troubles and controversial issues like this
while speaking to your interviewers? Is it a bad idea to bring up (for
example) this non-compete behavior on the part of the company when
negotiating, or should you keep quiet about it?

This seems like the sort of thing that should give someone pause when
interviewing with Amazon for a job.

~~~
koolba
I'd ignore the topic entirely till it comes up for a signature, then tell them
you won't sign it.

~~~
hodgesrm
Or send it back with markup. A lot of companies will wipe off stuff at that
point because the manager wants to make the hire. This is the point where you
have the most leverage in making the deal.

It's also important to stay unemotional, e.g., treat it at the same level as
what your office chair looks like. You just want them to agree, not start
wondering if you are a good fit.

I personally dislike non-competes but the point is to get it removed, not make
some big statement. (Unless your goal is to make a statement, not get the job
under desirable conditions.)

------
TSiege
(Pipe)Dream scenario this gets challenged and ends up in the supreme court and
non-competes as a practice are ended completely.

~~~
harryh
On what Constitutional grounds could the Supreme Court possibly support such a
ruling?

~~~
falcolas
On the same grounds that states like California outlaw such agreements?

In reality, though, they would probably not take such a case and simply let
the lower court's ruling stand.

~~~
sbuttgereit
Actually, the same constitutional grounds on which California law does not
recognize non-compete agreements would be the same grounds on which the U.S.
Supreme Court would uphold Washington's recognition of such clauses. That such
laws are not the concern of the federal government under the constitution.
Such powers are reserved by the state by the constitution.

Of course, there could be some batshit crazy application of the commerce
clause (wouldn't be the first time), but that could go either way.

~~~
falcolas
I'd be curious if this holds true across state lines. For example, if I'm
hired by Amazon in Washington, then go to work for Google in California, is
the no-compete recognized as valid? I'm sure the answer is "it depends", but I
think that's why it could come up in the higher courts. And since appeals will
go up to those higher federal courts, which would have to make a more broad-
reaching decision (even if it is simply "the lower court's ruling stands").

~~~
sbuttgereit
Usually contracts are specific in identifying jurisdiction/venue.

[http://www.adamsdrafting.com/if-you-want-exclusive-
jurisdict...](http://www.adamsdrafting.com/if-you-want-exclusive-
jurisdiction/)

(can't vouch for it... I'm not a lawyer nor did I review it much.)

Given that many contracts are with parties across state lines, yet subject to
some state's law, I have to assume that there is a substantial set of
precedents which have established how to properly set jurisdiction/venue. It
won't be a new problem.

------
christophilus
Non-competes really should be illegal. I have a friend who is a doctor. He is
being forced to sign a non-compete for a 12 mile radius and 2 years.

The irony is that his boss is forcing this on them because _she_ quit her job
and brought a bunch of her former coworkers with her in order to start her
business, and she doesn't want anyone to do the same to her.

What it means is my friend essentially can't find another job without either:

A. Moving (which is not an easy choice if you have a family) or

B. Subjecting himself to a significantly increased commute

This means his current employer can essentially take advantage of him, as she
knows he won't be going anywhere unless the situation becomes truly
unbearable.

------
iamleppert
I've heard nothing but bad things about working at Amazon. They may have an
amazing (technically) company and are winning in a lot of ways, but at what
cost?

I'm often hit up by Amazon recruiters and I've talked to a few before and got
the sense (just by their tone) its not some place I want to be working. They
also were deceptive in their recruiting tactics.

~~~
pinewurst
Can you please elaborate on the deceptive recruiting tactics?

~~~
iamleppert
Saying that you're being recruited for "special projects" and then once you
talk to them more you realize its clearly not the case.

------
bhouston
That is sort of dumb. I can more understand if he went to Google Cloud or
Azure, but this is a very very broad usage of a non-compete clause. They are
setting themselves up to lose I think.

~~~
mrep
This whole case is odd since I have never heard of it being enforced even if
you switch to a competitor.

My manager went from AWS to Azure and it was no big deal. He even finished out
his 2 weeks and our director gave him a farewell at our (director level) all
hands.

~~~
deagle50
how long ago was this if you don't mind me asking?

~~~
mrep
This past February, so 4 months ago. Why do you ask?

------
PKop
Non-competes enforced in this way certainly seem unfair to employees.

But let's talk this through. Assuming we all agree we don't like them, what's
the alternative? There seem to exist obvious negative consequences of them not
existing in any form.

Wouldn't large companies such as Google, Amazon etc be able to poach any
employee of let's say a startup competitor, by simply paying way more,
therefore being able to steal ideas, technology, etc?

Or even amongst (well-capitalized) companies of any size: a free-for-all for
employees within industries, good or bad? Maybe not so bad actually.. what say
you?

Seriously asking because I'm trying to envision the positives and negatives of
them being outlawed..

~~~
bgentry
You perfectly described the alternative. Rather than relying on non-competes,
employers must pay their employees sufficiently well and treat them well
enough to discourage poaching. Better in every way for employees, but possibly
expensive for employers.

If the CA tech scene has shown us anything, it's that companies will do just
fine without relying on repressive & anti-competitive employment contracts.

~~~
unit91
> ... but possibly expensive for employers

Very likely prohibitively expensive for a _lot_ of employers. Suppose you're a
small-business owner with a great product, albeit with a limited but growing
customer base. You work where cost of living is much lower than SV. $100K for
a developer is pretty good pay, and you can't afford to pay, say, $125K per
year. One of the "big guys" offers some of your devs $200K per year remote to
bring their knowledge and reimplement a knock-off. You're sunk, and not
because you are too hard-hearted to pay better salaries.

I'm not saying the current non-compete system is optimal (I've been bitten by
it), but some reasonable level of protection needs to exist or we'll descend
into (near) monopoly territory even more rapidly than we currently are.

~~~
sedachv
Wage fixing is not a "reasonable level of protection."

------
coredog64
How does Washington state still allow non-compete agreements?

~~~
solomatov
IANAL. Almost all states allow them. Even in California, in limited
circumstances they are allowed.

~~~
dctoedt
> _Even in California, in limited circumstances they_ [noncompetes] _are
> allowed._

The circumstances are _extremely_ limited [0]. In fact, California law says
it's an unfair business practice even to require an employee to sign a
noncompete, which could result in civil liability for damages [1].

[0] See, e.g., [https://www.venable.com/enforcing-non-compete-provisions-
in-...](https://www.venable.com/enforcing-non-compete-provisions-in-
california-01-13-2012/)

[1] See, e.g.,
[https://www.dorsey.com/newsresources/publications/2012/07/no...](https://www.dorsey.com/newsresources/publications/2012/07/noncompete-
provisions-in-california-unenforceabl__)

------
comice
Vendor and now employer lock-in - always innovating!

~~~
walterkobayashi
Ha!

------
mankash666
Federal courts need to set nation wide standards on these unfair practices.
It's 2017, but we still allow companies to routinely violate free will - a
basic human right!

------
simonebrunozzi
I remember Gene. We worked together on a demo for the launch of AWS
Workspaces, back when I was a Tech Evangelist. Unfortunately, at the last
moment we couldn't present it at re:Invent. Can't disclose much else (unless
you buy me a good espresso in SF).

I don't like non-compete agreements. They are now far away from their intended
purpose. It's wrong to point fingers at a single company, though - the entire
sector suffers from this.

------
jokoon
I don't understand how non compete deal are even legal. I thought competition
was good in the economy...

I mean wouldnt both conservatives and liberals agree?

~~~
TheCoelacanth
Unfortunately for many people "free market" means the freedom of the powerful
to exploit others in any way that the want, not the freedom for anyone to
compete fairly.

------
bsamuels
if you move from washington to a state where non-competes are unenforcable,
can amazon still sue you?

~~~
Jach
Similarly: if you live in WA but have a non-compete agreement with your
employer who is headquartered in CA, is that enforceable anywhere?

------
devy
Anecdotally, I've heard that non-compete agreements are very hard to be
enforced in some states (e.g. NY) due to the burden to prove damages.

------
CobrastanJorji
> This feels more like a general bullying behavior that you usually see from
> legacy ‘Day Two’ companies.

Ouch. Going right for the Amazon jugular right there.

------
outside1234
at this point, why would anyone work for Amazon?

~~~
pinewurst
The incorrect sense that it'll be different for them.

------
briankwest
This is one thing Oklahoma got right, A non-competes is not enforceable except
in a couple of narrow instances.

------
kmicklas
Amazon employees should organize, strike, and get these non competes mass
nulled.

------
cafard
Very odd.

~~~
Jach
Amazon does this shit all the time.

