
82-Year-Old Japanese Woman Finds Success in Coding - joering2
https://www.aarp.org/work/working-at-50-plus/info-2018/worlds-oldest-app-developer-fd.html
======
olingern
I just moved to Japan, and it's fascinating that connotations (including my
previous) with Japan are "High tech, futuristic, efficient" when in reality it
is, "slow moving, traditional, and (frequently) inefficient." I can comment
more as to why / how.

This woman is not only fighting cultural norms of the _world_, but also Japan.
Software engineering, in general, lags so far behind the rest of the world,
save robotics. It's starting to change, and I'm glad that people like
Wakamiya-san are preventing the creation of a 'conventional software
engineer'. Seriously, the field needs more role models like Grace Hopper to
idolize rather than our current trend of Jobs, Gates, Woz, Knuth, etc.

~~~
discordance
I attended a Microsoft developer event in Tokyo today and was surprised that
all of the keynote engineer speakers were female.

Might have been a bit of a marketing exercise, but nonetheless it’s a really
good thing to see.

~~~
staticelf
If gender doesn't matter, why is it a good thing to see more of a specific
one?

~~~
rwmj
If 100% of their engineers are women then yes they still have a problem. If
it's a sign that they have a more even balance then it's a good thing because
they're not wasting/ignoring 50% of the potential pool of people, and because
diversity of backgrounds leads to better decision making and more
innovation[1] which presumably as a tech company is a desirable outcome.

[1] See references to papers in this blog posting:
[http://stumblingandmumbling.typepad.com/stumbling_and_mumbli...](http://stumblingandmumbling.typepad.com/stumbling_and_mumbling/2014/10/diversity-
trumps-ability.html) and also [https://hbr.org/2013/12/how-diversity-can-
drive-innovation](https://hbr.org/2013/12/how-diversity-can-drive-innovation)

~~~
madmulita
It might be a sign of exactly the opposite. Unless we know the method used to
pick the speakers, it's all speculation.

------
droidist2
Very inspiring, this is her website:
[http://marchan.travel.coocan.jp](http://marchan.travel.coocan.jp)

Also previous discussion and video:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14995333](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14995333)

~~~
Something1234
Kind of off topic, but I've always found Japanese domain names to weird. They
always seem to be subdomains of someone else's site. Why is this?

~~~
oceanman888
She is probably using some hosting service provided by Japaneses company.
edit: the company hp is cocan.jp a lot of personal home page are host by them.
since normal Japanese don't exactly know how to use heroku and AWS.

~~~
pimlottc
In case you're not aware, you're being downvoted for "Jap". Perhaps you were
just abbreviating "Japanese", but it's considered offensive.

~~~
oceanman888
That is good to know, I am not from the states. I thought Jap was abbreviate
for Japanese what have the internet done to me lol.

~~~
astura
"Jap" only became an ethnic slur in American English during/due to World War
II.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jap](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jap)

------
Abishek_Muthian
There's a video at the end of the article where Tim Cook is discussing with
Masako Wakamiya,

Tim asks specific questions on accessibility & she enthusiastically answers
all of them precisely.She definitely knows what she's doing.

I wish, Tim asked her what difficulty she faced while porting to iPad as she
said so.

Nevertheless, the video made me happy.

------
bazooka_penguin
I wonder how much of brain elasticity in as adults is just due to attitude. I
generally find kids more eager to jump into new things, while adults are more
stubborn and complacent towards new experiences. Once you have money or kids
it's a lot easier to just have someone else do it for you. Still, at 82 I
imagine most people will start developing issues with memory so it probably
isn't an easy feat, and she's found more success than I have...

~~~
jdietrich
I think that openness and confidence are major factors. Having taught older
adults to use computers, one of the major difficulties is getting them past
the fear that they might "break" the computer and the need to memorise rote
instructions rather than experiment with the interface.

The body language is quite distinctive - tentatively pressing keys with an
outstretched index finger as if the keyboard might jump up and bite them,
pushing around the mouse with their fingertips rather than grasping it with
their whole hand, leaning away from the screen as if it might explode in their
face.

Some older people just can't internalise the idea of _looking at the screen_
for clues as to how to proceed. No matter how many times they're told and
shown, they just don't get the idea that computing is interactive. They try to
memorise every interaction as a series of rote steps, so if something
unexpected happens they're completely lost. They are completely incapable of
navigating a UI without very explicit instruction, even if it's broadly
similar to UIs they know how to navigate. Something as trivial as accidentally
scrolling down a few lines on a website is a complete showstopper. I don't
understand it, but I find it endlessly fascinating.

~~~
octorian
I've seen these exact behaviors countless times, ever since I was the "kid who
knows computers" (in the 90's) trying to walk adults through using them.

Oh, and when you ask them to "look at the screen", they're only mentally able
to process a 2-square-inch "window area" at any given moment. So you first
have to direct their gaze, very specifically, before you can actually expect
them to read and process anything. (Of course it doesn't help that many of
them used bifocals that made it difficult to actually see anything up close,
except maybe a book, without squinting at a weird angle. Not sure if that's
still an issue today.)

~~~
dahart
As much as I'd agree with the symptoms you guys are describing when it comes
to my parents and grandparents, I don't think this is much of an age problem
at all.

The same thing happens to my kids when I present them with a bash shell. They
don't understand how to read the instructions, and they're uncomfortable with
text commands. They don't want to type 'man' or 'help', and they give up very
quickly. Everything they use on computers and game consoles are GUIs, most of
them extremely easy to use by the standards of text interfaces like bash & vi.

This is a familiarity problem. You have years and years of experience with
your OSes, which is what allows you to see outside the 2-inch window when you
use a new application. You know exactly what you can ignore, and exactly what
you need to pay attention to. They don't. Being unfamiliar with all of it and
not having any idea how any of it works is what makes it seem like they're not
learning quickly, but it's more because they're trying to learn everything at
once, and are overwhelmed, not because they're not learning at all.

~~~
mehrdadn
> The same thing happens to my kids when I present them with a bash shell.
> They don't understand how to read the instructions

Uhm, the issue here is squarely on Bash's end, not your kid's. Even the
Windows command prompt is _far_ more intuitive to learn. I know because I
vividly remember how much more confused I got when learning the former.

In Windows, when you type "help", it _actually_ gives you helpful commands:
COPY, MOVE, DEL, REN/RENAME, etc. and at least the basic commands _are
actually what you 'd expect_. At least you have a foothold somewhere that you
can ground yourself, and you start learning a bit more every time.

Try that in Bash, and good luck learning out how to do _anything_ in Bash on
your own. Oh, you want _help_? I gotchu! I'm guessing you're looking for
job_spec, bg, compopt, coproc, disown, shopt, or trap? Oh I'm _so sorry_ , you
said all you wanted was to just _copy_ a file? Haha I'm just a _shell_! You
can't expect me to know how know what it means to "copy" a file! I can't even
find that command! But if you need help, type "man -k" (what kind of a name is
that??) to find out more about other commands. Oh, so you typed "man -k"?
Okay, _" apropos what?"_??? (You, thinking to yourself: _is 'apropos' even an
English word?? I literally just typed in man -k like they told me to, and I
got back a question I don't understand..._) And on and on and on, until weeks
later you realize the darn command was helpfully named 'cp' and not 'copy'...

~~~
Splines
> _In Windows, when you type "help", it actually gives you helpful commands:
> COPY, MOVE, DEL, REN/RENAME, etc. and at least the basic commands are
> actually what you'd expect. At least you have a foothold somewhere that you
> can ground yourself, and you start learning a bit more every time._

Yes, this. I recall back in the MS-DOS days that I frequently used a text-GUI
help menu that showed all the commands you could do and what each one did.

Personally, this is what I struggle with on *nix shells - I can do the very
basics but there's little guidance showing you a broad overview of what is
possible. Granted, the world is bigger now but if you asked me how to do a
random task I'd probably google it first instead of reading a man page.

~~~
cerberusss
> Personally, this is what I struggle with on *nix shells

Once you learn the 8000 or so commands, it becomes incredibly intuitive.

~~~
krageon
Don't forget all the little tricks in chaining them! And all the magic you can
do with pipes.

------
sytelus
If I understand correctly, she started out with Swift as her first language?

 _Wakamiya soon bought programming books and learned Apple’s Swift programming
language through lessons with a programmer, nearly 200 miles away from her
home in Japan 's Kanagawa Prefecture, via Facebook Messenger and Skype._

~~~
ozaark
Looks like she has been interested for many years

"This wasn’t the first time that Wakamiya took on a challenge. She’s been
dabbling in the tech field since the age of 60."

------
padthai
What does it mean "oriented to old people"? Old people can play anything, they
just have slower reflexes. Silver Snipers are 60-80 years old and play Counter
Strike:

[https://www.theverge.com/2017/12/20/16800924/silver-
snipers-...](https://www.theverge.com/2017/12/20/16800924/silver-snipers-
senior-counter-strike-team)

~~~
matte_black
When I was a teenager playing Starcraft, I learned that one of the guys who
regularly played with us was in his 50s. At the time it seemed weird anyone
that old would be able to keep up in this game, or even know what it's about.

~~~
sweetbacon
I find lots of players in Overwatch are surprised to find I'm 46 with an above
average SR whenever it comes up. Though I typically don't snipe, I seem to
still have some twitch reflexes left!

------
paulpauper
I still find it hard to get a php ajax form to work despite tinkering with
code for over 10 years. I can;t imagine trying to code an entire app when
getting a form to work takes hours. guess some people learn faster than others

~~~
noir_lord
Things are a lot less painful than they used to be.

fetch()/promises/async/await and better browser support.

[https://developer.mozilla.org/en-
US/docs/Web/API/FormData](https://developer.mozilla.org/en-
US/docs/Web/API/FormData)

[https://developer.mozilla.org/en-
US/docs/Web/API/Fetch_API](https://developer.mozilla.org/en-
US/docs/Web/API/Fetch_API)

Also promises (coupled with async/await) make things a great deal more
pleasant and I'm old enough to remember the old days.

~~~
ben_jones
How does javascript async/await solve form handling (presumably pure html) and
basic PHP?

~~~
noir_lord
He said ajax, the asynchronous part can be handled cleanly with async/await
particularly if doing more complex field validation/rules.

------
intrasight
Very inspiring. Made me happy - to know that after programming for 28 years, I
might only be half-way through my career.

------
innocentoldguy
I know Masako and I think what she has accomplished is pretty remarkable. Her
story goes to show that people can accomplish anything they want, regardless
of age, if they take joy from it.

~~~
hapnin
I'm 60 years old. I'm teaching myself node.js and related tools. I find great
joy in learning anyway but networked computers are still as amazing to me now
as they were when I first encountered them in the 70s.

If you ever speak to Masako, please tell her she inspired an old geek in
America.

~~~
innocentoldguy
I will.

------
brightball
There’s a 78 year old man enrolled in Computer Information Systems at Clemson
right now. Great story and amazing life too.

[https://newsstand.clemson.edu/78-year-old-sophomore-
everythi...](https://newsstand.clemson.edu/78-year-old-sophomore-everything-
ive-done-in-life-ive-done-late/)

------
shredprez
Quite a feat!

I think her success as a marketer shouldn't be overlooked: many of the app
store reviews focus mainly on her unique backstory (plenty of them posted
before this article was even published). Very nicely done.

------
combatentropy
A point of clarification: "She's been dabbling in the tech field since the age
of 60." Still impressive though!

Also, the app isn't described until 3/4 into the article: "The app, based on
the annual Japanese doll festival of Hina Matsuri, invites players to arrange
12 ornamental dolls --- representing the country's emperor, family and guests
--- in a specific order."

~~~
zargon
The article goes on to define "dabbling in the tech field" as buying a
computer and creating Excel art.

~~~
cdelsolar
and also CODING A PHONE APP IN SWIFT

------
disordinary
There's been quite a few studies that learning things like new languages
forges new neuron pathways and helps fight off dementia and other age related
brain diseases.

I wonder if there's been any studies to the cognitive benefits of teaching the
elderly to code?

------
mistrial9
twice I have worked with colleagues in Japan on non-trivial things.. patience,
skill and conflict-averse were my direct experience.. regarding the age
topic.. it is rampant in the Bay Area, and in my opinion is a flimsy mask over
an even greater list of ugly management practices

------
joering2
Since I posted it I feel compelled to add: its irrelevant that this person was
a woman of Japanese decent.

We all know gender and nationality is irrelevant when it comes to skill of
coding, but I wanted to keep it intact in the title as the article goes.

As of her age, I do think its quite unique skills to be so laser-focused at
something as tedious as coding, even more in CamelType structured language as
Apple forces on you.

I only code for last 30 years but I do hope to have such clarity of my mind
when I reach her age, hopefully :)

~~~
gowld
She's a Japanese person making a Japanese app about a Japanese cultural topic.

------
zpatel
I made an app for 2 older folks (~75) who connected with me over the web. The
high level idea and functional spec was provided by them. One of the main
reason i helped them was because it was interesting to see someone at their
age trying to change the world (a bit) positively through the use of
software..

~~~
joering2
share the app!!

------
doomlaser
This reminds me of the story about the 81 year old woman who uses an Amiga,
AmigaBASIC and C to create programmatic visual art:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sDfIkXf3uzA](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sDfIkXf3uzA)

------
csomar
Most of the people over 70s I knew have had their sight degraded or lost
pretty much all of it. Her eyes (from the picture) look in a pretty healthy
condition.

I mean degraded in a bad way that they can't read normal text and require
assistance. I think they'll have trouble reading code on a normal computer
screen.

What your experiences in your surrounding are? I don't really hang with older
people when I travel so mine is limited to my family. I'm wondering if it is a
genetic thing.

Given that I'm planning to retire by my very early 30s, and guessing an
average age of 75-80. I still have around 40 years. Plenty of time and I like
computers.

~~~
skriticos2
Depends a lot on the lifestyle. A few of my relatives managed to stay
relatively fit over 70 with a relatively active lifestyle and probably some
luck in the genetic makeup (they do need vision aids, but can manage fairly OK
with them). I'm from Europe, but I heard that Japanese have a comparably high
life expectancy, which likely results in better overall health in all age
groups.

I'm sitting in front of a computer all day, so my chances are probably not as
good in this regard if I don't change things. But I guess this kind of insight
is news for few people around here.

------
tw1010
I always found it funny, the idea that age or agism should in any way stop you
from achieving cool shit in business. Entrepreneurship is a jungle. Your
customers, largely speaking, doesn't know your age or gender or whether or not
you went to an ivy league school or anything else. Some career directions
certainly do depend on that stuff, but that's mostly because they depend on
other people for advancement. But building products is only a competition
against forces that pull down quality, not a game of gatekeeper-signaling. If
you want to succeed in business, you can either let that stuff affect you, or
you can just build something that people buy and prove everyone who says there
are fundamental barriers wrong.

~~~
ddebernardy
My hat goes to the old lady, but frankly, if you feel the need to code and
market something at age 82 then the odds are you're either struggling to make
ends meet, which might warrant giving a cold hard look at the pension system
in place, or you don't have and never have had much of a life outside of work
- no kids or grand-(grand-)children, no hobbies, etc.

~~~
optimuspaul
ouch, that's kind of harsh. You make a lot of assumptions.

~~~
jrs95
The idea that someone would do work because they enjoy it seems entirely
foreign to the parent. Although I suppose that is a more western perspective
as well. Sure we have that whole "do what you love" bit, but there seems to be
an appreciation of "craftsmanship" for lack of a better term that the Japanese
have and we seem to have largely forgotten.

------
cpeterso
> Wakamiya bought her first computer, then moved on to a Microsoft PC, and
> later a Mac and iPhones.

So what was her first computer?? :) The article says she bought her first
computer after retiring from a 43-year career, which would be around 1997
(year 2018 - age 82 + 18 years + 43 years).

~~~
gaius
_So what was her first computer??_

Probably a super-cool Japanese machine that never made it to the West like
[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sony_NEWS](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sony_NEWS)

------
kazinator
I saw another such woman on (Japanese) TV some time ago, also octagenarian, I
think. She made a virtual koto. You know, pluck the strings on the mobile
device's screen, and koto tones come out. Maybe it's the same person.

------
agumonkey
Not really up to that level, but a 96yo neighbor rang on my bell for some tech
support. The dude was sharper than a lot of 50yo persons.

Humans are weird

------
gerdesj
There are a lot of threads here comparing learning a "foreign" language with
learning a computer "language".

C is C and English is odd.

------
Double_a_92
I like how the design of her personal page look so outdated but still very
very neat.

------
epx
Made my day! Thanks for this.

------
gymshoes
This is awesome.

------
corpMaverick
I feel it is kind of sad to see old people in the casinos. They are mindless
spending time. They don't even seem to enjoy it. There must be games that are
more enjoyable than that. no skill needed, no creativity being developed.

~~~
zzzeek
I actually stepped foot into a depressing casino some years ago and actually
saw slot machines, and was amazed that would appeal to anyone. they're full
blown video games but only have one button. super boring! and dumb - hey
here's our hotel and restaurant, but to pay for your stay, instead of paying
at the desk, you have to spend your whole vacation in a dark smoky room buying
tokens to feed into a machine and pushing a button for days on end. sign me
up.

I predict that current generations who have grown up with technology and video
games are going to be much less interested in really dumb machines like this.
But this is total armchair conjecture and I'm probably totally wrong.

~~~
Double_a_92
I think that simplicity is actually part of the addiction. You have to only
press that one button, and "exciting" stuff automatically happens.

------
sharecropper
Another great example where an open mind of any age will learn new things. My
neighbour is in her 90's always seems to relish the challenge of learning new
things, and it does seem to keep her brain sharp.

