
Hydrogen Could Replace Coke in Steel Production - woodandsteel
https://about.bnef.com/blog/hydrogen-solve-steels-climate-test-hobble-coal/?sf108467981=1
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rrggrr
How does this impact the use of scrap metal feedstock and direct reduced iron?

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ncmncm
Great, but industrial hydrogen is produced from natural gas.

We need a good alternative source of industrial hydrogen. I have read of
catalytic coatings that split water into hydrogen and oxygen, and were
considered uneconomical because of the need to process the hydrogen into
"something useful". If hydrogen becomes directly useful, the economic equation
should balance out differently.

~~~
kragen
Even electrolysis is a reasonable cost if electrical energy is abundant.

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chroem-
What about hydrogen embrittlement?

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dredmorbius
I cannot speak directly the process described, but hydrogen embrittlement is
an effect of exposure of finished metals to hydrogen gas where molecular
hydrogen penetrates the metal walls (H2 is a very small and light molecule
with a sort of ambiguous electropotential property) and disrupts the metalic
structure.

Presumably use in production would avoid this, possibly through oxydising the
hydrogen at some point. I'd like to read a more technical metalurgical
description though, and am well out of my depth here.

Update: The process Bloomberg describe may be related to the concept of
"hydrogen attack", in which hot, high-temperature hydrogen decarburises
(reduces/removes carbon in) steel by combining with it to form methane, with
the resulting gas then trapped in the metal matrix itself.

It's not clear if/how this process might function in steelmaking itself,
though part of that involves decarburisation through the injection of oxygen
to the blast furnace.

See:

[https://www.twi-global.com/technical-knowledge/faqs/what-
is-...](https://www.twi-global.com/technical-knowledge/faqs/what-is-high-
temperature-hydrogen-attack-htha-hot-hydrogen-attack)

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sunkenvicar
Seems like nuclear heat and electricity can substitute for hydrocarbons.
Abundant heat and power within the atom to compensate for lower efficiency.

~~~
nine_k
Solar heat concentration and power generation could maybe come close in some
scenarios.

The main problem is stability.

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kristianp
Doesn't steel require carbon? Where does the carbon come from in a hydrogen
process?

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kleton
About 0.8%. You could throw in coke after hydrogen smelting, and skip the
decarburization step that you'd normally need with coke smelting.

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dredmorbius
This could indeed be a big deal. "Coked" coal, or metalurgical coal, accounts
for 15% of current (or at least recent-years, the numbers are shifting rapidly
as electric generation offloads) global coal use. It's a use that would
otherwise be hard to substitute for although there are options.

Previously, the main alternative has been to re-use recycled steel, in
electric arc furnaces (hit up [https://invido.us](https://invido.us) for some
pretty amazing videos of things going well and/or poorly) which 1) use
potentially clean electricity sources and 2) eliminate all coke use.
Altneratives to the blast furnace refinement of new steel from iron ore would
be a development unprecedented since the introduction of Bessemer process
furnaces in the 1860s.

Vaclav Smil writes on many energy and resource topics, and covers steel from
both perspectives in his _Energy and Civilization_ and _Making the Modern
World_ books. I'd strongly recommend both.

What I'm finding odd with the article is that Bloomberg appear to be
principally citing themselves as sources. I'm reviewing literature and there
appears to be scientific research dating at least to the 1970s on this topic
(that'a a very quick first read by titles).

I'll add possibly relevant links here. Anyone with actual metalurgical
knowledge is far better placed to comment than me.

This appears likely the technology in question:

Valentin Vogl, Max Åhman, Lars J. Nilsson, "Assessment of hydrogen direct
reduction for fossil-free steelmaking" (2018)

[https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S095965261...](https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0959652618326301)
(PDF freely available)

Also: "Modelling a new, low CO2 emissions, hydrogen steelmaking process"
(2013)
[https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S095965261...](https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0959652612003836)

A techno-economic evaluation of the use of hydrogen in a steel production
process, utilizing nuclear process heat Authors: L.M.Germeshuizena,
P.W.E.Blomb (2013)
[https://doi.org/10.1016/j.ijhydene.2013.06.076](https://doi.org/10.1016/j.ijhydene.2013.06.076)
[https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S00406...](https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0040603102004781)

Solutions to Hydrogen Attack in Steels (Timmins) addresses the hydrogen
embrittlement question: [https://www.worldcat.org/title/solutions-to-hydrogen-
attack-...](https://www.worldcat.org/title/solutions-to-hydrogen-attack-in-
steels/oclc/840345832&referer=brief_results)

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andrewflnr
I'm not sure what you meant to link to with that invido.us link, but when I
opened it I got an expired cert, followed by uBlock Origin blocking the whole
page, followed by a redirect to a different domain whose above-the-fold
content was about Minecraft.

~~~
dredmorbius
Typo. Should have been: [https://invidio.us](https://invidio.us)

(Edit window has closed for HN :(

It's an alternative interface to a popular but increasingly advertising-
infested and annoying video-hosting platform.

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hairytrog
This is one of many creative ways of getting rid of direct fossil fuel use in
industry and in the economy overall. We need ways to make steel, cement, and
fertilizer with alternative processes that do not contribute to greenhouse gas
emissions, and techniques like these are extremely useful. They will make a
transition away from fossil fuels possible. But all these processes require
heat and electricity. The root energy source used to do all these things needs
to decarbonized. That's the really big challenge.

~~~
clomond
Interesting though how if you suppose abundant, low cost renewable energy
available at scale exists, the above problems suddenly become tractable and
solved.

~~~
tomarr
Unfortunately not and that is one of the main issues. Even if we had limitless
carbon-free energy there would still be significant carbon outputs directly
from the production process. The article shows one possible way of reducing
this for steel, but cement is currently a different ballgame and is a
substantial emissions source from its non-energy inputs.

~~~
sfifs
Well with cheap carbon free electricity, we could cut all the CO2 emissions
from iron and steel with hydrogen based reduction and about half that of
cement manufacture (about half the carbon use is energy cost for heating as
per Wikipedia article). Together about 15% of global emissions could be
eliminated which is nothing to sneeze at.

In fact many intractable problems in the world can be solved by more clean
electricity - eg. 8000 odd skyscraper farms are enough to feed the world
eliminating farm-land requirements but would require enormous amount of energy
to run - also would represent single points if failure to attack in war - so
will need society to evolve

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exabrial
Where does the carbon source come from to turn the iron into steel?

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sfifs
Steel has miniscule amounts of carbon (0.2% is typical). The carbon comes
largely from pig iron from the iron making step (where it comes from the coke
used to smelt ore) and an oxygen lance is actually used to burn out excess
carbon from molten pig iron to reduce the quantity to a level suitable for
mild steel.

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jchw
Wow, I have genuinely never heard of coked coal[1] before in my life, and was
extremely confused about why a soft drink was involved in the production of
steel... I guess you learn new stuff every day.

[1]:
[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coke_(fuel)](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coke_\(fuel\))

~~~
the_mitsuhiko
On the other hand it was impossible to grow up in my country not knowing about
it because the double meaning was subject to a very popular song:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mutter,_der_Mann_mit_dem_Koks_...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mutter,_der_Mann_mit_dem_Koks_ist_da)

~~~
std_throwaway
Official video:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0m7bHdcq87o](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0m7bHdcq87o)

Translated lyrics: [https://lyricstranslate.com/en/mutter-der-mann-mit-dem-
koks-...](https://lyricstranslate.com/en/mutter-der-mann-mit-dem-koks-ist-da-
mother-man-cokes-there.html)

Important to know:

* Koks: Coke as in coal but also Cocaine as in drug.

* Kohle: Coal but also Money.

The song reflects on the situation after WW2 where people were freezing in the
winter and longed for warmth but had no money to pay. This is contrasted with
the party generation of the 90s.

~~~
gallexme
Koks is cocaine, not crack cocaine, Koksen is insufflatiing cocaine

~~~
std_throwaway
I think you're right. I've changed it.

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loons2
“... the technology to make fossil-free steel is already currently operating
with natural gas...”

Natural Gas IS a fossil fuel!

~~~
i_am_proteus
Yes. The _technology_ is in use, just using natural gas instead of hydrogen
because of cost.

If/when hydrogen becomes cost-effective via direct market forces or mandated
at gunpoint by government, the technology is ready.

~~~
Gibbon1
Got bad news, you can reduce iron electrolytically and bypass the electricity
to hydrogen/hydrogen reduction steps.

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maxerickson
Is there a well developed industrial process doing that?

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pfdietz
It is not well developed, but there are at least two approaches being
investigated at lab or pilot scale.

The first involves electrolysis of molten iron oxide.

[https://www.bostonmetal.com/moe-technology/](https://www.bostonmetal.com/moe-
technology/)

The other approach involves electrolysis of iron ore powder in alkaline
aqueous solution.

[https://www.siderwin-
spire.eu/sites/template.drupal.pulsarte...](https://www.siderwin-
spire.eu/sites/template.drupal.pulsartecnalia.com/files/documents/Massive%20production%20of%20primary%20steel_presentation_DECHEMA_23_11_2018.pdf)

~~~
ChuckMcM
I found the Boston Metal link particularly interesting. If you consider it,
combined with a small form factor nuclear reactor, you could build an iron
ingot producing plant right on top of the deposits in places that would
otherwise be forced to ship ore out for external processing.

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pfdietz
They're both interesting, but the aqueous approach has some advantages.
Keeping materials working at extreme temperature is difficult: basically
anything above 1000C gets very hard. And a low temperature approach has the
potential very big advantage of being highly dispatchable, since it would not
have to be kept running to keep from freezing up. Dispatchable
electrochemistry is like half a battery, just great for dealing with
intermittent power sources like renewables.

~~~
Gibbon1
The second link is interesting. I've only seen the paper on the old Norwegian
pilot plant before that slide show. The Norwegians were dealing with Iron
Sulfide waste from copper mining as the feed stock. Being able to directly
reduce solid iron oxide is probably better.

I have also wondered if you could use the iron rich gangue from bauxite mining
as a feed source.

