
NYU Makes Tuition Free for All Medical Students - mudil
https://www.wsj.com/articles/nyu-offers-full-tuition-scholarships-for-all-medical-students-1534433082
======
sf_rob
I'll probably be downvoted on a forum like this, but I worry about the most
successful universities using their funds to subsidize those who would be fine
without it. I was actually made aware of this by a wealthy Stanford alumni
which has a fairly broad program for undergraduate tuition assistance.
Graduates of mid/low tier universities seem more and more likely to have to
compete with better credentialed people with lower debt.

Don't get me wrong, this is fantastic on an atomic level, and the levels of
debt required to get an MD these days is insane (have a lot of family in the
field). Also, it's not like this is a unique structural disadvantage, just a
new one.

~~~
monocasa
IDK. The same thought process led me to not being able to complete college due
to financial reasons.

Despite being emancipated, FAFSA still considers you a dependent until you're
24. I was told that only with documentation of leaving an abusive household
would a dependency exception grant be applied. So according to FAFSA I was
supposed to use all this money that I didn't have to pay for college. By 24 I
had dropped out and gotten a development job, now putting me outside of the
income level where I'd get even federal loans (and quite frankly I still can't
take on that debt load).

Just make college free. Trying to make all of these complicated rules to make
sure that a few people aren't "getting one over us" is just making more cracks
for people to fall into. If you're concerned that the rich are going to
somehow use the system without paying, structure the backing tax so that they
pay their fair share. No one cares that high school is free for the rich too.
Everyone pays in, everyone can participate.

~~~
kfrzcode
> Just make college free.

Sure, have some funding ideas?

~~~
jeffreybaird
Raise the income tax, create a VAT, kill the mortgage-interest tax deduction,
add a Financial transaction tax, tax capital gains like normal income, stop
subsidizing fossil fuel extraction, add a carbon tax, and lower the threshold
for the inheritance tax and raise the percentage.

~~~
ConfSibi
Making college free is a huge waste of resources.

College is largely an exercise in social credentialing and signaling. If we
make college free, the people who want to get ahead in society will just go to
expensive graduate programs in order to distinguish themselves. Then the
discussion will shift to fully funding those programs...

Our current system is very fair. Take out a loan if you need to, but make sure
your post graduation prospects justify taking a loan out. If they don't, then
don't get the loan.

One of the major reasons why college is so expensive today is because the
availability of loans means Universities are able to continuously hike tuition
in support of ever expanding bureaucracies (not in support of the core
educational mission) without fear of students not being able to pay, because
the loans mean students can always secure funding! Society is basically
writing them a blank check... The answer is NOT to give them even more money!

College education has become a financial black hole that will only expand if
we throw more money at it.

~~~
PascLeRasc
I have some bad news for you: graduate programs are usually fully funded and
some PhD students even get a stipend for attending.

~~~
ams6110
PhD students getting stipends are essentially contract employees. They are
doing work, either as associate instructors or research assistants, for that
money.

------
aabajian
This is amazing. I graduated from medical school two years ago with $300,000
in debt. I'm a software developer on the side and would love to stop residency
to try a healthcare startup and/or pursue a research, but the risk is too
great - I need the attending salary to pay off the debt.

~~~
pandler
I’ve started thinking of the obligation to stick in industry to pay off my
loans as an analog to having an organization like the US military pay for my
degree. I have a few friends in the military studying at university for free.
Their payment for those degrees essentially consists of X number years of
obligatory post-degree military service, in addition to whatever military
obligations during their study. [1]

It’s an imperfect analog I think, but it’s helped me contextualize my
situation and remove some feelings of bitterness towards the debt I still owe.

[1] I’m not military so I don’t know 100% how that works - open to corrections

~~~
alistairSH
ROTC (military scholarship[1]) pays tuition as you go, so there's no debt
incurred. If the military allowed[2], you could study underwater tiddlywinks
without any concern for unpayable loans.

You're analogy works for academic programs that lead to careers that pay
reasonably well. But, not for underwater tiddlywinks - no amount of time spent
in that field will allow you to pay down the debt.

1 - They pay for four years, plus some expenses. Generally, if you drop out of
the ROTC program after the start of year two, you owe Uncle Sam whatever has
been paid on your behalf. If you finish the program, you are committed to 4+
years of service (differs by branch and job role, with some allowing the
commitment to be split between active duty and reserve).

2 - ROTC programs prioritize technical degrees and foreign languages over
other degrees.

~~~
pandler
> You're analogy works for academic programs that lead to careers that pay
> reasonably well. But, not for underwater tiddlywinks - no amount of time
> spent in that field will allow you to pay down the debt.

Agreed, but that’s your onus to calculate the cost/benefit (whatever those
benefits may be) of any pursuit, not just academic. It’s just especially
important for studying in the US, given the insane cost of education.

Like you said, there’s a skew towards technical degrees, but I think about me
and my peers at 18 and man we had no idea what we were doing and had little
context for how such a big life decision would affect us down the road.

------
geff82
What a surreal discussion about something obvious: University and college
should be free for everyone. First, this is a great equalizer in the positive
way: it does not depend on how wealthy your parents are, so you get an equal
opportunity. Second: the society as a whole benefits from well educated
people. Accounts need well trained doctors, doctors need well trained
accountants, both need an engineer to craft them a reliable car, etc etc...

Countries like Germany show that university/med school can both be free and
high quality. Od course also in Germany some private elite universities exists
where you have to pay (it is ok, I like diversity). But to get a perfect
career, a state run university is all you need.

~~~
avip
Always replace "free" with "I'm paying for you". I don't know what's "obvious"
about me paying your tuition fees. For once, I may be happy to fund your auto-
mechanic studies as I know I'll need you to fix my car. But if you're studying
ancient Akkadian I'm less inclined to pay your bills.

~~~
talltimtom
That is like saying you only want to pay taxes towards the roads you drive on
yourself.

Would you be better off if all publicly funded roads where instead private and
required you to pay tolls per usage? You would defiantly get an bill more
matching your usage, and people who don’t drive would pay less. But it at
least feels like we are better off with public roads because they all add
value to society as a whole.

The same goes for education. You don’t care about Akkadian studies, but
perhaps someone does who thanks to his education can focus on that and earn
enough money to buy a car from you auto mechanic keeping him in business
making life better for you.

~~~
neap24
Indeed, many do advocate that paying for the roads you drive on through tolls
would be a much better system. I don't think it's unreasonable to not want to
subsidize certain fields of study with public money.

In the past, when a smaller percentage of people were "educated" the marginal
value of educating an extra member of society was very high. It seems much
lower to me now that information is cheap and freely available.

~~~
iak8god
Education is not about memorizing information. It is about learning how to
think. If anything, this is of much more value now that we're drowning in so
much information -- and so much misinformation.

------
brtknr
I do not live in the US and therefore I am not sure why medicine has been
singled out as a worthy profession to receive subsidy over many others? Don’t
those in the medical profession get paid reasonably well over there? Aren’t
there other professions equally necessary for a functional society that don’t
get compensated as well as they should like teachers, social workers and those
in the voluntary sectors who would be better off with this money? I personally
think this is a misjudged priority in the grand scheme of things.

~~~
hn_throwaway_99
There are a couple arguments:

1\. This isn't an "either/or" proposition. This is one university that is
making medical education free. There are other universities and programs that
have free or low cost programs for the jobs you discuss.

2\. Medical school education is _phenomenally_ expensive in the US, unlike
training for the other jobs you give as examples, and this expense has a
structural impact that negatively impacts our health care system. The high
cost of education is one reason that so many doctors opt for higher paying
specialties that have higher salaries but don't necessarily result in an
overall healthier society.

------
retbull
I hope this helps to decrease the costs of medical care in the US to some
extent as it removes one pressure for doctors to earn extra money charging for
things that might not need to be needed.

edit: Just so I am clear I know that there are lots of other influences on
healthcare costs and doctor debt isn't the only pressure they face. Doctors do
have some influence on cost (if not large) and if pressure on them is removed
in any way some of them may choose to spend that extra time helping their
patients money go further. Small early influences can have large effects on a
system so I am hoping that this kind of influence might change attitudes
enough to have a large longer term change.

~~~
umanwizard
I hope so too, but I can't see why it would. The market forces would be the
same.

I have no student debt but I still would take a higher-paying job, all else
being equal. Not sure why it would be different for doctors.

I'm not an economics expert so please let me know if this is a well-studied
question and I'm just talking out of my ass.

~~~
scarface74
Not on that scale. But I know plenty of teachers who chose not to be
administrators because they enjoyed what they do. I also know many first level
software development managers who “self demoted” to become software developers
and took a pay cut.

Other developers I know took a pay cut and contracted half the year. You can
make those choices if you don’t have outrageous expenses- including student
loans.

------
wpasc
This is awesome! So many medical students are kinda forced into more
profitable healthcare practices than ones which people need more desperately
(e.g. plastic surgery vs rheumatology).

I especially love that this was done with private fundraising over government
funding. Philanthropy can be effective, often far more so than governments!

~~~
hooloovoo_zoo
I predict this will have the opposite effect. This will increase the appeal of
NYU leading to stronger students applying/accepting offers of admission who go
on to get into higher paying specialties.

~~~
DoktorEgo
It's a bit similar to the test-optional trend in undergraduate admissions. The
acceptance count (numerator) generally remains constant, while the application
count (denominator) increases as more students see the appeal of omitted test
scores. So, the acceptance rate decreases, which can craft a façade of
prestige, among other things. Additionally, that increased applicant pool may
include some higher-achieving students, likely applying for safety purposes,
which can increase prestige if they accept; furthermore, their acceptance
pushes otherwise-capable students to a lower priority in the pool.

All in all, in order to effectively analyze these occurrences (particularly in
admissions), one must ask: how will the institution benefit? They wouldn't
pass these changes otherwise.

------
classichasclass
Huge. I went private for my medical school education and came out of it with
about $190K in debt. Fortunately I didn't have any undergrad debt.

But I liked family practice, and I like public health, and I'm proud to work
in those fields. I definitely understand the push to go to higher-paid
specialties with a burden like that, though.

------
neonate
[http://archive.is/3qiUo](http://archive.is/3qiUo)

------
gerpsh
> School officials worry that rising tuition and soaring loan balances are
> pushing new doctors into high-paying fields and contributing to a shortage
> of researchers and primary care physicians.

I think this is only partially true, because it misunderstands the motivations
of many would-be doctors. Sure, the cost of medical education factors into
specialty decisions, but as long as derm and ortho are regarded as more
_prestigious_ than family med and general peds, you're going to see similar
residency application numbers. There's still a social hierarchy within the
medical profession, which the price of tuition doesn't immediately change.

Still, this is great for people set on primary care as a career. Interestingly
enough, my general observation has been that students who need the money the
_least_ (i.e. people whose families are paying for their educations) are the
ones who are gunning for the highest paid (and typically most prestigious)
specialties.

~~~
hectorr1
In my experience, the people who go for the extra money in derm and ortho
don't need it from a wealth perspective, but often need it from a social and
self-worth perspective.

Over time this dynamic translates into to the prestige gap.

------
cncrnd
Is anyone not going to med school because of debt? Not sure what problems this
solves.

For the long commitment that doctors make and the debt they take on, they
receive basically guaranteed highly paying employment for as long as they
wish.

There's also a shortage of medical school spots, we can't create enough
doctors.

I think this is probably an attempt to compete with other medical schools for
top students. NYU is pretty well respected bit probably loses a lot of
candidates to Harvard, Yale, etc.

~~~
Nasrudith
Perhaps as a back of a line thing - not those about to enter it. It is already
infamously grueling. Graduating and being six figures in debt could try the
patience of many. "Staying in school in a high stress environment till near my
thirties is bad enough without being in debt practically big enough for a
house for years afterwards. I'll just go into banking after four years so I
can actually enjoy the money while I am young." Whether you want doctors with
such am attitude is another question.

~~~
cncrnd
Banking and tech aren't guaranteed the way medicine is. Other fields are
result based, and it's often easy to get fired and be replaced.

A risk averse person would rather stick to what they know (student life,
exams) for a guaranteed reward.

The debt isn't really that much. Probably the average is 200k. You can pay
that off within about 1-2 years of residency, and interest rates tend to be
low since they're low risk loans for banks to give out.

~~~
aesclepius
> The debt isn't really that much. Probably the average is 200k. You can pay
> that off within about 1-2 years of residency, and interest rates tend to be
> low since they're low risk loans for banks to give out.

Please try looking at the numbers again. Assuming you pay off undergraduate
loans, a private medical school will cost $30-45k a year (not including living
costs, so tack on another $30k a year), so assuming ($150-$300,000) will be
total assumed debt (not including books, unexpected expenses, etc) during
those 4 years. Residency salary is basically stuck at around $50k/yearly for
3-5 years (based on residency type), you can contribute back to loans but
there's not a chance you're paying that off in residency. (source: current
medical resident)

~~~
cncrnd
I mean 1-2 years after residency. Most people taking on debt for medical
school don't really see it as a huge risk, it's basically a guaranteed
investment.

The big downside of medicine is the time in my opinion. 7 years of prime time,
but some of the med students I know are enjoying it. A former classmate said
it's less work than undergrad.

------
kaitari
This is great! Now lets please do the same for nurses and social workers who
pay exorbitant tuition rates, too, yet get paid peanuts to be on the frontline
of health care.

~~~
chimeracoder
> Now lets please do the same for nurses and social workers who pay exorbitant
> tuition rates, too, yet get paid peanuts to be on the frontline of health
> care.

I would not say nurses get paid "peanuts". Not many jobs would let you earn
close to $100k in New York City with only a bachelor degree (or in some cases
only a two-year associate degree)

~~~
CindyCarlson
4 year bachelor +

4 year md +

3-7 year residency ( hourly pay is ~ 1/4 a nurses on an hourly basis) +

(optional) 1-4 year fellowship (cardiology, surg-sup specialties like trauma,
hand surgery, etc) +

(optional) 4 year PhD (20%+ of rad onc physicians have a PhD too.

~~~
amdavidson
Parent was referring to nurses...

------
dawhizkid
How terrible would you feel if you just graduated from NYU and sacked with
$500k-$1m in debt?

~~~
s0rce
Or any other medical school really...

------
bawana
They need warm bodies (residents are cheap labor) to run the hospital (the
money machine that gets thousands of dollars per xray, per drug, etc). A
steady supply of med students who are already situated in NYC saves them the
cost of recruiting residents from afar. And who knows how much money they save
by cutting the bureaucracy to administer tuition, loans, Sally Mae compliance,
etc.

~~~
chimeracoder
> They need warm bodies (residents are cheap labor) to run the hospital (the
> money machine that gets thousands of dollars per xray, per drug, etc). A
> steady supply of med students who are already situated in NYC saves them the
> cost of recruiting residents from afar. And who knows how much money they
> save by cutting the bureaucracy to administer tuition, loans, Sally Mae
> compliance, etc.

This is a rather elaborate conspiracy theory, and one that falls apart
entirely once you think about the actual costs of residency programs, the
mechanics of matching students, and the real ROI that they would make in the
process. It's absurdly out of proportion with what would be needed to make
this theory work.

~~~
CindyCarlson
> This is a rather elaborate conspiracy theory

I wish it was.

> and one that falls apart entirely once you think about the actual costs of
> residency programs

What are the `actual` costs of residency program?

> the mechanics of matching students

As someone who has seen how the sausage is made ... the junior attendings
(usually paid like shit because it's an academic institution) sort through a
few thousand ERAS applications who narrow it down to a few dozen candidates.
We hold a few interview dates and have a dinner at somewhat nice place. We
have a meeting. We make a rank list. An algorithm matches our residents.
That's it.

Consider that what the average applicant spends on traveling for interviews
(I'd guess ~5-15k, more if couples matching or competitive specialty; many
take out loans for this)... I don't feel bad for the programs holding a few
interview dinners.

> real ROI that they would make in the process

What are you basing this on? Most teaching hospitals would fall over without
cheap resident labor. In practice, my experience is that residents function
like extremely cheap, slightly-more capable mid-level providers.

------
aantix
This is probably the other piece of the puzzle regarding the implementation of
single payer healthcare.

Because who in their right mind wants to sacrifice 16 years of earning
potential, take on 500K of debt only to become an MD with long work days and
now prices that are fixed with no other form of negotiation leverage in sight.

~~~
nappy-doo
Does anyone know if the single payer models we use in the US keep Dr. salaries
on par? I've only heard of savings from negotiated drug prices, and insurance
overhead; but, if Dr. salaries are also decreased, OP's got an interesting
point.

~~~
s0rce
I don't think doctor salaries are substantially lower in Canada.

~~~
aantix
I couldn't find the original study that these articles are based off of..

"Canadian doctors still make dramatically less than U.S. counterparts: study"
[https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/canadian-doctors-
still-...](https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/canadian-doctors-still-make-
dramatically-less-than-u-s-counterparts-study)

US doctors earn much more than peers, study says
[https://bangordailynews.com/2011/09/09/health/us-doctors-
ear...](https://bangordailynews.com/2011/09/09/health/us-doctors-earn-much-
more-than-peers-study-says/)

------
markmichalski
Included in the list of perhaps not totally intended consequences: I think
this may allow some MD students to think twice about practicing and take less
traditional (potentially less secure) career routes. I may be biased, having
effectively not practiced for a couple years now myself, but I think this
could be a good thing to an extent.

I work with 3-4 MDs that chose not to practice who are now working on defining
software/ML product feature requirements; their MD experience makes them solid
product specialists for clinical solutions that hopefully will help a lot of
people...not having to stare down the barrel on loan payments may help people
make these kind of career moves that may ultimately progress the system.

All that being said, we (obviously) need good docs at the bedside.

------
cwp
Bravo!

I just wish there was a middle ground here. The problem is that tuition is too
high, not that it exists at all. Lowering tuition would solve the problem just
as effectively, and could be done for more students.

~~~
pc86
Lowering med school, law school, and undergrad tuition by 8% across the board
doesn't quite get the publicity that eliminating med school tuition does,
though.

~~~
blang
It's also easier, NYU med school has ~530 students, NYU undergrad has ~26,000
students

------
Havoc
How? Medical is one of the most expensive courses to provide.

I mean I love this, but who is footing the bills on this & are we sure they
won't taint the results with ulterior motives...

~~~
rubicon33
Seriously. I don't understand how this is possible. Nothing in life is free...
Someone, or something, is footing this bill - no?

~~~
drak0n1c
It will be paid for in the form of reduced class size growth and its endowment
funded by billionaire alums - maybe they are betting on future alum donations
as well. Unclear if that's sustainable.

------
bogomipz
>"School officials worry that rising tuition and soaring loan balances are
pushing new doctors into high-paying fields and contributing to a shortage of
researchers and primary care physicians."

It's worth noting that NYU tuition for regular undergrad is $50K before room
and board and $68K with room and board [1].

The cynic in me has to wonder if they share the same concern for the rest of
the legion of debtors they are churning out every year.

I'm not doubting the importance of research and primary care physicians in our
society. But six figure debt loads for university are commonplace in the US.
And are likely causing skew in career choices in non-medial fields as well.

I also have to think that there's something in this arrangement for NYU and
that there are motives outside of just societal altruism here. I just don't
know what those are. Research money? 501(c)(3) maintenance? Something else?

[1] [https://www.investopedia.com/articles/personal-
finance/01091...](https://www.investopedia.com/articles/personal-
finance/010915/cost-studying-new-york-university-nyu.asp)

------
naveen99
I wonder if they will cover the tax if the irs decides to call it income to
the student. But good to see. Doctors have been getting squeezed pretty hard
recently. Something has got to give. Radiology had around 80 unfilled
residency spots a few years ago because of poor career outlook.

~~~
karmajunkie
I think this has more to do with ML advances putting radiologists out of a
job.

~~~
naveen99
No. I think it was just a large drop in compensation along with increase in
productivity targets making radiologists less likely to sell radiology to MED
students.

Radiology job market improved since then, residency spots are not going
Unfilled anymore.

ML may put radiologists out of a job, but it will take some time I think. Lots
of changes will happen by then. Radiology is a nice place to be for hacker
types in medicine. It’s actually a fun place to do ML research which I do also
(radiologist / AI researcher)

Edit: Medicare has walked back some compensation cuts for medical imaging (for
multiple procedures on the same day). My tin foil hat theory is the cost
cutters got spooked by the prospect of no more us graduates in radiology.

------
bawana
for nyu to make tuition go away means that they are already having a large
cost processing loans/grants/discounts along with the compliance costs for
sallie mae,etc. NYU is a PRIVATE university as well so they can be super
selective in whom they accept - and now they become even more selective -
admitting those with legacy contacts, etc. Finally, the truth is that they
need warm bodies to run the hospital and if the cost of living in NYC is so
high that nobody wants to do residency there (training after med school), then
how are they going to get PCPs? They'll need to pay an arm and a leg to get
them (dark pun?) By having a steady supply of med students who are already
situated in NYC, they assure a steady supply of residency candidates.

------
EGreg
Glad to see my Alma Mater leading in things like this. Now NYU medical school
will be an even more sought-after destination.

Still I look forward to a world where this scarcity of ivy league schools,
news organizations, self-driving car software etc. is a thing of the past and
everyone collaborates on a growing snowball of knowledge.

I believe universities will eventually turn into centers for labs,
certification and socializing, while information delivery (the commodity)
would be done entirely online and students would form their own groups. Then,
school would be much cheaper - and we could even have free subsidized tuition
for all!

------
anonymous5133
I think the kicker here is...how many actual students do they accept? Usually
when I see stuff like this I think that the amount of students they accept is
very low.

~~~
dmoy
NYU med has <1k people at any given point in time

------
JoeAltmaier
NYU already has an endowment large enough to accomplish this ($3B). They are
not $400M donations on the way to $600M before this can happen. They just want
more money, and they want Alumni etc to pay for it.

I've been confused why so many large-endowment colleges still charge tuition.
It seems pointless, gathering crumbs from students each year. It creates
institutional obstructions to whole classes of student etc. Is it just
tradition?

~~~
ejstronge
I suspect that NYU, like many universities, has separate endowments for its
academic units. Thus, the med school endowment may indeed be too small to
support their free tuition goal.

------
x2f10
Idea: What if tuition was initially free for all students and universities
collected a percentage of the graduate's pay for a fixed number of years?

~~~
winslow
That's the idea behind lambda school. Interesting podcast interview from Indie
Hackers[1]. They only collect if your salary is above $55k if I recall
correctly and there is a max amount that they take in total.

[1] [https://www.indiehackers.com/podcast/046-austen-allred-of-
la...](https://www.indiehackers.com/podcast/046-austen-allred-of-lambda-
school)

------
justonepost
So 650M is enough for NYU. The top 10 universities have endowment funds > 10B.
Shouldnt they all be full rides for everyone as well?

~~~
conanbatt
They are private institutions, you can try to persuade them of that at any
point.

------
fipple
I can't think of anyone who needs free tuition less than medical students.
When they finish their residency they enter a highly protected, highly paid
workforce and can easily pay back their loans. Yeah it sucks until you're a
doctor but NYU could fund only the interest so that graduates could start
paying back their loans when they're 35 or so.

------
jeandejean
That's an amazing news! Being aware that education costs a lot is important,
but being able to afford education is paramount.

Having to sacrifice 10 years of first jobs savings to reimburse the student
loan is just insane. Especially considered tuition is skyrocketing without any
meaningful reason: education is not better in that proportion than 10/15 years
ago.

------
ralmidani
Why medical school and not, say, engineering or economics or math? I value
having good physicians (my father is one), but medicine is not the only
worthwhile human endeavor.

Edit: Also, at least in my state (Michigan) there seems to be no shortage of
medical students (we went from 4 med schools to 7 earlier in the decade). The
real bottleneck is residency programs.

~~~
aquamongoose
Maybe because PhD programs in those fields already are free at every
university (in fact, they pay you a stipend).

~~~
ralmidani
In exchange for that stipend, you work insane hours as an RA and/or TA.

------
jmh530
Upon graduation, these free tuition doctors will be taking jobs in a
competitive market. Some doctors they compete against will have debt, some
won't. But it really isn't like the amount they charge for services will
decline. This just means that some doctors will get a little bit richer...

~~~
Dowwie
That is NYU's intent and it's been up front about that. Primary care
physicians don't earn as much as other physicians do. This program creates
economic incentives for students to pursue the field.

------
daveheq
Finally someone putting education before money; maybe these kids can get
educated without having to worry about taking crap jobs outside of their
career taking up their time to pay for loans that will tank them otherwise
instead of looking for a job in their career or ramping up as an intern.

------
mbrumlow
I feel like all the collage should be free people are not thinking far enough
ahead to what that actually means.

1) A free collage will end up being more like extended high school.

2) At some point new institutes of for pay higher education will pop up. They
just won't be called colleges. People who can afford them will clearly have a
advantage and top companies will start to seek out people who attended these
organizations.

3) The quality of the education will drop. It already has at a lot of schools
with the introduction of loan for everybody gig.

While this will reset thing for a while. Maybe even a generation of two. We
will end up again with people wanting the next level of education free.

EDIT: now that I am not trying to type on a tiny phone.

The problem with free is it will then need to cater to the LCD. Right now we
we have a filter on the LCD because there is some effort and risk required by
the person going to school. There is something special about buying something,
and owning it. You tend to tend for it better, give it the attention it needs
and ensure it last a long time. If we bypass this step we will end up with
masses going to school doing the same thing they do in high school today. This
might be hard to visualize as the HN crowd is a fairly smart crowd and
probably took advantage of the offerings of their high school, and likely were
not aware of those who did not.

This won't be as big of an issue for those who are "gifted" as they will be
sheltered in their special classes slotted away with like minded ilk. But for
the less "gifted" student the expense will be dragged down to the LCD. So if
you are not lucky, smart enough, or had the right coaching from parents to get
into those gifted classes you will be left with a much worse education.

~~~
NeedMoreTea
If you look at the UK, which has in recent years gone from free to firstly low
tuition fees and more recently exorbitant tuition fees, the reverse seems to
be true.

In making university a £9k a year proposition universities seem to have
significantly increased student expectations along the lines of "I paid for
this, I expect top marks", along with vast increases in appeals etc. It does
_not_ seem to have increased educational expectations - just transactional.
This seems to be particularly prevalent with overseas students who pay even
higher fees.

Universities have, in the main, happily adopted the profit mentality by
providing and offering less and increasing class sizes.

My conclusion is by adopting a high fee model we have significantly weakened
further education in the UK.

~~~
mbrumlow
Yeah, I don't think high fees are the answer either. Costly and free are both
extreme and probably won't do what we want them to do.

We need something just right, something that both the schools, and students
still have some skin in the game so they are obligated / motivated to perform
their best.

I think a free market mostly can cover do this, and it seemed to work out fine
for many many years in the US until we started giving crazy loans out to
everybody.

And don't get me started, on the bs that we need free school because low
income kids won't be able to go. Harvard has a fund for low income students
that goes untapped every year, they even make a effort to get low income kids
(from my understanding mostly underprivileged minorities) to take advantage of
the funding available, but yet, hardly anybody does.

~~~
NeedMoreTea
I think you're right. In the UK context, the first incarnation of fees
appeared to work OK and not bring the negatives that are becoming clear after
the introduction of high fees. Even the overseas students paying higher fees
seemed to bring less expectation and entitlement to a first whilst standard
fees were only £3k, which I can't explain.

Of course the other aspect when fees were first introduced was the policy to
significantly increase numbers attending university. This brought its own set
of problems including harming standards (unavoidable of course) and vocational
institutions, and no end of colleges remaking themselves as universities.

------
elliotec
All school should be free, period. This is a great step but a long way to go.

------
dhbradshaw
That's an easy way to become the most competitive medical school in existence.

Of course, no tuition doesn't mean no debt in a town like NYC. But what a
difference!

------
patagonia
I left my career path in local government partially due to financial concerns
related to undergrad debt. This is not strictly a medical sector issue.

~~~
MrEfficiency
I have a hard time understanding if this is bad.

Economics says that things are designed to work this way. You have felt the
economic indicators and made changes accordingly.

The economy(you, your friends, your community, the world) benefits when you
make profit. If your prior path was burdened with massive debt with little way
to repay it, it sounds like a bad decision.

I cant imagine too many situations where doing something that pays
significantly worse and puts you in more debt is better for society.

~~~
patagonia
I didn’t say massive debt. I said it was a part of my decision. And I was able
to repay it, eventually. Your assumptions show you are biased in how you read
my comment.

Also, I think you’re missing some variables. Or, as they might be called in
economics, externalities.

The less money we spend on prisons the better for state and federal coffers,
in the short run. The less a company pays a prison guard for their services,
the better for the share holders. But what about everything that happens on
the day an inmate is released back into society? Are their neighbors happy
they were incarcerated by near minimum wage persons with little guidance or
oversight and perhaps a bit too much enthusiasm? Are their employers happy
they were not given access to higher education or the ability to learn a
trade?

Or let’s talk about educators. Or defense attorneys for the indigent. I’ll
leave the remaining examples to be worked by the student.

Seriously though, as someone that graduated with dual degrees in political
science and economics, worked for a couple years in local government, then
went to Manhattan to work in the financial markets for 5 years, and is now
working a “tech” job. Sorry I don’t have patience for this.

------
dugluak
But who is going to pay off that $450 million ?

~~~
dugluak
Not sure about the down votes, I didn't mean to ask a rhetorical question. But
someone has to pay if not students. Or is that not how it works in this case?
Disclaimer: I couldn't read the whole article because I don't have a login to
the website.

~~~
scarface74
Donations.

And if you don’t mind going through Facebook (no login required)

[https://www.fullwsj.com/articles/nyu-offers-full-tuition-
sch...](https://www.fullwsj.com/articles/nyu-offers-full-tuition-scholarships-
for-all-medical-students-1534433082)

On a meta level. Can you really be accused of not RTFM if it’s behind a
paywall - that doesn’t seem fair.

~~~
alexives
Weird, still gives me a paywall through that link.

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true_tuna
Medical school may be free, but the WSJ isn’t.

------
milesdyson_phd
This is all an effort to attract the best applicants, much like Mayo and the
Cleveland Clinic med schools.

------
mixmastamyk
Always wondered why everything medical is either absurdly expensive, or free.
Why not a reasonable price?

------
JungleGymSam
Why is it so popular to call for free college? Why not something more
reasonable like 50% less?

------
jczhang
How do they have the money to do this, sustainably?

~~~
pcurve
By creating a giant endowment that can be used to generate cash. In this case,
$600 million lump sum.

~~~
scarface74
While I’m glad that billionaires are donating, why should colleges be
dependent on the largess of private benefactors to ensure that our healthcare
system is sustainable?

~~~
naveen99
we want the most capable doctors. This will help keep more of top candidates
from choosing other careers.

~~~
scarface74
I didnt mean to imply that the donors were doing anything wrong, but that the
government should do more to make sure that there are enough qualified general
practitioners and obstetricians. There is far more of a need for those
specialties than higher paying plastic surgeons.

------
exegete
Can't read the article.

Will students be obligated to pay anything to the school in the future after
they start earning?

Who is funding this?

------
ngngngng
Off topic, but I love how WSJ let's you through without a subscription as long
as your referer header is set to Facebook.

~~~
kk123789
how do you change the header?

~~~
ngngngng
On my phone I literally just post it to my facebook under "only me" privacy
and then click it from there. On my laptop i've got a chrome extension that I
made a rule to add that header whenever i'm on certain sites.

