
Stranded after driving out of cellphone range in app-powered smart car - pseudolus
https://www.cbc.ca/radio/asithappens/as-it-happens-wednesday-edition-1.5468449/tech-reporter-stranded-after-driving-out-of-cellphone-range-in-app-powered-smart-car-1.5468741
======
Santosh83
Remarkable how the designers did not conceive that cell coverage doesn't
actually cover every inch of the planet or is 100% reliable. What will we have
next? A heart-lung machine that depends on 24x7 internet access?

~~~
Tade0
We already have a ton of apps which assume that everyone has a decent internet
connection at all times.

I frequently land in places where my connection is but a trickle(with an
absurd ping of 20s at that), and because of that a large part of apps simply
refuse to work.

One notable exception is Facebook Messenger - if it doesn't work then you
_really_ don't have internet.

~~~
BlueTemplar
And this is _infuriating_. I would expect mobile apps to be able to deal
_better_ with complete/spotty loss of Internet connection than PC programs,
not _worse_ !

~~~
hasbot
I roadtrip and camp alot. It's amusing how many campground/boondocking locator
apps require cell service. They often have a ton of other features, but
downloading a dataset is not one of them. They want people to add, rate, and
comment on campsites and yet, again, have no offline abilities. Doh!

------
gargs
It's not just bad cellphone service, but sometimes server issues could have
the same effect. Hyundai ran a car sharing service here in Amsterdam that used
a combination of Bluetooth and cellular connectivity to remotely unlock cars
and provision software keys for phones. Every once in a while, though, the app
would crash and lose the software key, meaning that the car would end up back
again on the map exactly where you picked it up without leaving you with a way
to unlock the car. I am not sure what exactly was the issue as the app just
errored out.

I'd have to call the customer service line, where they wouldn't know what to
do as the car was already in use according to the backend. After a few times
getting stuck, I came up with a solution which was to literally beg them to
cancel the checkout so that the car was available again. They were trained to
not do that as their information was that a car could not be left parked
outside their service area, which was definitely not the case as I was able to
start a new reservation and unlock the car. This happened quite a few times,
so much so that I would already know the solution but had to spend an awful
amount of time explaining it to the reps -- starting with uninstalling and
reinstalling the app as told by them.

Then, some other company took over the system and started a new system with
the same infrastructure and the app codebase. When it happened again a couple
times, I was finally able to get hold of a systems programmer who debugged the
issue with me while I was out in the wind. It hasn't recurred since.

Just wanted to share this story

~~~
raverbashing
Well, but that is not an issue of cell phone connectivity, it's just the app
being crappy.

Sounds like the new management is less clueless than the previous one, if no
one had heard about the problem (and if the cars were - they should be - gps-
tracked then the backend should just use that as a position, obviously).

------
jaclaz
I would like to compare with a "normal" rent:

1) you are given (by a human) the keys of the car in exchange of providing
your driver license and credit card

2) you do (within limits) whatever you want with the car

3) after the agreed upon rent period you bring back the car and keys (giving
them to a human) and then the rental company checks how many miles you did
(and if you exceeded the included amount you are charged, unless you got an
all inclusive/unlimited mmileage contract)

I.e. the renting company actually "trusts" you (backed financially by your
credit card).

And this formula worked seemigly just fine for the last 60 years or more.

A "natural" evolution would IMHO be:

1) you get pre-approved (i.e. you provide your driving license and credit card
before and outside the actual rent) when you start the rent your smartphone is
_somehow_ allowed to open and start the car

2) you do (within limits) whatever you want with the car

3) after the agreed upon rent period you bring back the car in a designed
area, you notify the renter of it and _somehow_ your smartphone cannot open or
start the car anymore (and at that time the mileage is checked remotely, etc.)

If this was the case the need for coverage would only be needed in the
designed pick and leave area.

I fail to see any practical advantage for the renting company to collect data
"realtime" (and thus need the anytime coverage).

I.e. it seems to me more like a "because I can" reason than anything else.

~~~
dariusj18
Seems to me that it is probably some inadvised anti-theft thing.

~~~
jaclaz
Yep, but is it theft an actual "real world" problem?

How has (say) Herz, Avis or Budget managed to survive all these years (and
still do)?

Surely rental car theft must be something rare enough to not be of concern
(statistically).

Besides, a car is not something designed (by the manufacturer) to be easily
accessible, and if professional car thieves are going to target a vehicle,
allow me to doubt that the _whatever_ the smart peeps at GigCarShare devised
is more effective than the manufacturer's and or additional third party [1]
anti-theft devices.

BTW, should the _whatever_ device/system actually be much better than
competing systems, they would most probably have much more imcome/profit by
selling the devices/systems instead of renting cars.

[1] possibly specialized since a couple decades or more in the anti-theft
technology

~~~
javagram
Yes, it’s actually a serious problem.
[https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/skbaer/chicago-
rental-c...](https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/skbaer/chicago-rental-car-
company-fraud)

The problem is when your authentication is an app and a digital photo it’s a
lot easier to fake who you are. At least if someone tries to go on a crime
spree with traditional rentals they’re gonna be on dozens of office security
cams, have to repeatedly show a physical license and have their identity
checked, and so on.

~~~
jaclaz
I meant for "traditional" rental service, where the theft is performed by
someone else, not by the person that rented the car.

They _somehow_ either solved it or it doesn't represent an issue.

What you linked to is possibly yet another kind of crime, the _whatever_ app
was seemingly hacked.

------
Tepix
The internet of shit is alive and well.

Live tweet at
[https://twitter.com/kari_paul/status/1229428892802392064](https://twitter.com/kari_paul/status/1229428892802392064)

~~~
rl3
> _The internet of shit is alive and well._

IoS

It has a nice ring to it. However, I fear for its wider adoption:

[https://www.apple.com/legal/intellectual-
property/trademark/...](https://www.apple.com/legal/intellectual-
property/trademark/appletmlist.html)

 _" IOS is a trademark or registered trademark of Cisco in the U.S. and other
countries and is used under license."_

Uh-oh.

Can see the headline now: _Cisco sues budding Internet of Shit (IoS) startup
claiming trademark infringement. Plaintiff filings also allege numerous
instances of patent infringement, as well as theft of trade secrets._

~~~
giancarlostoro
I never heard of Internetwork Operating System till now.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cisco_IOS](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cisco_IOS)

------
jacquesm
Any in vehicle device that has the power to control whether the car starts or
not should have a fail safe mode that ensures that it will never be _less_
safe than the vehicle without the addition. Telling users to 'overnight in
their car' could be very unsafe depending on the conditions. This company
deserves to go out of business rapidly.

------
montenegrohugo
Had the same experience in Spain. Turned off the car in a location with bad
phone signal and the car wouldn't start anymore. Not even creating a wifi
Hotspot with the phone (funnily enough our phones did have a weak signal.
Ludicrous how a big car can have a weaker antenna than a weight-size-optimised
phone).

After hours of talking with support, they finally sent someone to tow us to
the nearest city. The car then had reception and finally started again.

------
techbubble
I'm just surprised they have to tow the vehicle. A better design would be to
have a hardwired or bluetooth number pad in the car. The app can generate
emergency start codes 2-3 times which can be entered in the number pad. Lots
of ways to prevent abuse including working only when there isn't a signal
present.

------
tobltobs
> So we initially had it towed to our AirBnb because we had Wi-Fi there and
> thought that would be enough to start the car, having our phones securely
> connected to Wi-Fi.

> But it turned out it actually needed to be towed ... to the nearest town
> with cell service.

> I'm a tech reporter. I'm pretty tech savvy.

~~~
luma
All while they were on the phone w/ Gig Car customer support. I'm pretty
confused about the sequence of events here.

~~~
johnpowell
I use Mint Mobile here which is a MVNO that uses T-Mobile. I don't get cell
reception at my house. But my sister uses AT&T and gets full bars here while
my phone is dead. And by dead I mean it doesn't even connect.

So maybe went Gig went cheap when choosing a cell partner.

------
rahidz
>@GIGCarShare told us to sleep in our car on the side of the road and try
again in the morning

...i...what...but why...that doesn't even make sense?...

>Gig told us we used our “allotted restarts” of the car

why is this a thing? if i rent a car from enterprise etc, they don't care how
many times i start the car up, it's paid by time...just seems like yet another
needless over-complication

also i wonder if these cars have similar issues in parking garages where cell
reception is less than ideal.

~~~
aikah
> ...i...what...but why...that doesn't even make sense?...

From the article

> Basically, a phone unlocks the car using a combination of cell service and
> Bluetooth. So when you're out of cell range it can be difficult to unlock
> the car.

> They were unable to ping the car because, I don't know, they hadn't updated,
> or synced, the software in 24 hours.

My understanding is that it works like scooter and bike sharing services,
where you have to have an active connection to their servers to use the
vehicle. Of course, while it works in the city where there is 3G/4G coverage,
it's not going to be efficient in the middle of nowhere where coverage is
unlikely... so sometimes convenience (AKA it's just an app) becomes a
hindrance. Who's fault is it? (rhetorical question)

~~~
akuji1993
> Who's fault is it?

The developer's fault. How this is even debatable is beyond me. Completely
failed on the UX level.

~~~
dwild
How is that the developer's fault?

You unlock the car with your phone over your data connection and not with a
key. Losing the data connection is the equivalent of losing the key. You may
not like it, I know I don't, but that's the downside of doing it this way
(just like it's a downside to have a physical key because you can lose it
too).

I have no doubt that the developers warned management of the risk of doing it
this way, they accepted the risk.

~~~
closetohome
Whether the restriction is reasonable or not is up for debate. The issue is
that they created a vehicle that only works within a specific geographic area,
then failed to document that area or warn users that it existed.

------
ficklepickle
Based on the cars and how it is described, it sounds like the same system as
Evo[0] in Vancouver. It is run by our automobile association, BCAA. Their
platform vendor is called Vulog[1].

The big difference with Evo is it sounds like these don't have the keys in the
glovebox. The app is hot garbage, so it comes in handy. Also the RFID cards
are standard issue here. I have taken them well out of service for over 24
hours without issue. All this to say, I don't believe it is an inherent limit
of the platform. That said, my experience poking around exposed endpoints does
not inspire confidence. The back end is some Microsoft abomination. I'd love
to know what runs on the in-car embedded device, but it's probably WinCE.
Anybody here worked for vulog?

The article seems to imply they are smart cars, but the picture is clearly of
a Prius C. I guess they mean smart as in internet-connected rather than the
brand from Mercedes.

[0] [https://evo.ca](https://evo.ca) [1]
[https://www.vulog.com/en/](https://www.vulog.com/en/)

------
analog31
I cringe when a "pure software" business gets into an area where health and
safety are potentially at play. This kind of stuff is going to only get worse.
Hi, we're from a startup, and we're here to burn your house down.

I think that something like "engineering fundamentals" should be a course
requirement for computer science majors in case they aren't headed for careers
in CS research. Back in my day, at the start of the first day of physics
class, the professor showed a video of the famous footage from the Tacoma
Narrows Bridge disaster. Then we got down to business.

~~~
ficklepickle
Based on the stack, I'd wager that the vendor (vulog) is not an engineering-
driven organization.

------
cousin_it
Remember the Freeman's Mind joke about guided missiles that fly out of range
of the authentication servers?

------
fangorn
Next in Internet of Shit: "smart" car ransomware. Coupled with autopilot,
because why not.

~~~
wiether
Gilfoyle did it to Dinesh !

------
dexen
Some comments read to me as if they were trying to say, _> I want to benefit
from the latest technology_ _> I want to enjoy the bleeding edge tech_ _>
bugs? Why are there bugs in the bleeding edge technology?_ _> misfeatures? Why
are there misfeatures in the bleeding edge tech?_

Some people are okay with occasional tech hiccups as the price of pushing the
frontier forward. I hereby thank the brave beta-testers, and hold them above
the people who expect perfection the first time out of the gate.

Now if they went for a Death Valley trip in the car that'd have been entirely
different story - one of irresponsibility and needless risk taking. But as
things were, they suffered only a major inconvenience and no appreciable risk
to life and limb, due to maintaining sensible proximity to civilization.

On a lighter note, please consider the histories of Alice Ramsey[1] - first
woman to drive cross USA, and Bertha Benz[2] - first woman to drive cross a
country, having financed the development of the car. Both encountered
malfunctions and other mishaps, solved problems & persevered, and earned fame
and appreciation. Both also added to the popularization & development of the
technology.

\--

[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alice_Huyler_Ramsey](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alice_Huyler_Ramsey)

[2] [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bertha_Benz#First_cross-
countr...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bertha_Benz#First_cross-
country_automobile_journey)

~~~
devb
I thought you opened with quotes from the article, but it seems like you made
them up? There's no indication that the people here were expecting to go on a
pioneering expedition.

~~~
dexen
You are right, and thank you for pointing it out.

My intent was to satirize the incredulity or even outrage conveyed in certain
comments; should've chosen a better format for that.

------
pelf
We live in the future now... and it's horrible.

~~~
brazzy
Worse, it's _stupid_.

~~~
jacobush
Yep. All good old dystopic sci-fi of yesteryear was at least evil but _cool_.
This is just sad.

------
lm28469
Last time this story was posted (less than 48 hours ago) someone pointed out
that you're supposed to get a nfc card to open/start the car when you're out
of town.

Also, there are plenty of old school rental companies that are cheaper and
more convenient than these shitty services for these kind of road trips.

------
WilliamEdward
This has to be satire right? How is it even legal to produce a car that only
works with an internet connection?

~~~
dahfizz
What law would it be breaking? The "cars have to work all the time" law?

~~~
Nasrudith
Roadworthiness of vehicle definitions - I heard apparently the Autobahn has
fines for running out of fuel or breaking down on it without a collision but
that is a very different place and legal context.

------
hypewatch
So the company that did this - Gig Car - can remotely shut off a vehicle in
their fleet? How is this legal?

It’s sounds so dangerous! What if they lost internet on a bridge? People could
really get hurt.

~~~
dwild
> It’s sounds so dangerous! What if they lost internet on a bridge? People
> could really get hurt.

There's actually system to do this, and I'm also amazed that this is legal. In
this case though it's not that, it's simply that to unlock the car it go
through a data connection. It won't shut itself, you just won't be able to
unlock it without a data connection.

------
BlueTemplar
Wow, this is DRM taken to a whole new level!

~~~
userbinator
Technically speaking if you rent a car you don't actually own it, so I don't
think this goes in the same category as other DRM-fails.

~~~
stonewareslord
DRM doesn't have to require ownership. See Amazon's ebooks or Netflix. Not
owned, but still under DRM.

------
uxp100
ZipCar seems to have gottwn this right, probably because it was developed
years ago. You have a card, and it works for your car even without cell
service afaik.

Unfortunately zipcar is declining where I live so I canceled my membership.
They removed the zip cars in my neighborhood and I see zip cars around less
often in general.

------
tarunupaday
“Gig also told me is that they offer RFID card where you kind of scan the card
to get into the car. So in the case that you don't have cell service or
Bluetooth, you can still get into your car.”

\- From the article.

~~~
joncrane
Sounds like an undocumented feature, plus you have to order it and it takes 2
weeks to arrive, so, per the article,

>it's a bit at odds with their 'hop in and go' advertising language. So, I
think maybe that's why it's not stressed so much on their website.

