
Eek, A Male - georgecmu
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703779704576073752925629440.html
======
PaulHoule
My child went to an excellent day care center that got targeted for harassment
because it had male workers. The place got inspected by the state and
ultimately got a clean bill of health, but it cost them money and caused a lot
of worry for them and parents who had children there.

I spoke with the director and we both agreed that children spend too much time
with women in school and day care. One of the reasons many young boys don't
click with school is that they don't get male role models. Children who don't
have a "man in the house" might get all the way to high school before they
meet any male role models at all.

~~~
ja27
I spent several years working with elementary-aged kids in our church. For one
whole year, it was me and another dad with a class of a dozen or so 5 year
olds. (We're all background-checked, for what little that's worth. We also
have child protection guidelines to follow - foremost of which is to never be
alone with a kid and no other adult.)

It was amazing to see the reactions of moms dropping off their kids when they
realized it was just us. Only once did I get asked "is there going to be a mom
here with you?" but I know it was in a lot of their minds. But I never had one
refuse to leave their kid with us. Over the years I've had plenty of moms
eventually tell me how glad they were to see men working with kids.

I did get a chance for 2 years to run more "boy-friendly" activities at
church. We did mock camp-outs, blanket forts, went outside for classes
whenever the weather and sunlight allowed, and even had campfires outside
during what otherwise would have been time spent sitting around a table trying
to pay attention. Boys don't work well indoors trying to sit still and pay
attention. They really do absorb more if they're outside and their hands are
busy.

I even got to work with a special-needs girl that was horribly abused by her
birth parents. (I'd happily beat her birth parents within an inch of their
lives and worse if I ever met them.) In two years she went from screaming fits
if an adult even accidently touched her arm to the point that she'd walk up
and hug me. I was honored to be a small part of her recovery.

~~~
theycallmemorty
The Child Protection Policy at my church requires a male and female leader in
every situation.

Its a shame that this is where our society is going and that being 'beyond
reproach' means remaining one step ahead.

------
axod
If I had to choose one of the following, to improve society:

    
    
      a). More women in tech
      b). More men in childcare/teaching
    

It'd be 'b' without a doubt. As said elsewhere, the complete lack of any male
role models at a large number of schools is astonishing and very worrying. Is
it any wonder girls are performing better than boys these days, as the number
of male teachers has decreased to almost none?

Great to finally see an article like this one.

~~~
kenjackson
I have to admit I'd go the complete opposite. I do know there are great male
teachers, but in environments where the male teacher might be alone with
children I am hesitant. The data bears this out, as does personal experience.

With that said male coaches or piano teachers or tutors I have no problem
with, since those generally take place in plainsight of parents.

I know that really sucks for the good ones, and most are. But there are enough
bad ones that the risk seems too great.

~~~
oiuhjyftgrdgh
Most abuse is by family members/friends.

So rather than trusting your husband to drop your kids off in the SUV and
worrying about the gym teacher - you would be safer letting them walk with
strangers.

~~~
jongraehl
In the same way that "most accidents happen within 5 miles of home" is true
but wouldn't be true any longer if you intentionally increased the amount of
time spent driving farther away, if you made sure your kids hung out with a
variety of strangers more often than with people you know, then it wouldn't be
true any more than most of their abuse would come from family or friends.

At least, you can't deny that it's possible. In other words, your reasoning is
wrong ("So ..."), no matter the actual truth value of your conclusion.

------
alexophile
[I originally posted this on a reddit discussion, link's at the bottom]

    
    
      One day, my friend Bryan was charged with the daunting task of getting Ellie, one of the older and more difficult students, to read out of a children's book for a distinct and measurable amount of time.
    

After some cajoling, pleading, and maybe even trickery, the two were finally
sitting down at a table with myself and another student. To keep Ellie in
control long enough to read more than a sentance was a complicated maneuver,
but the best way (this was relayed by the teacher-coordinator person) involved
being really close with him and loosely holding him in place. I don't know
much about Ellie's potential conditions or history, but this makes some sort
of sense. Suffice it to say, they were close, but in a totally appropriate
manner (I was in a position to guage, because I was basically staring in awe
the entire time)

But a few minutes in, Ellie decides he's done reading for the day. And for one
reason or another, he jumps up out of the bench seat, pointing an accusatory
finger at his tutor. His English wasn't super clear, and he wasn't being very
loud (thank god), but I did catch "touch" and "special area."

The two of us are frozen in horror. What can you say but "I... b... no..."?
Ellie maintains this outrage long enough to really get some good satisfaction
out of the looks on our faces, and then he relents and just starts laughing at
us.

What if someone walking by had heard? We were in a partially exposed church
basement kind of area, so it's not unheard of for random people to be walking
by - and the cry of abuse stirs the indignation better than most anything else
- so there was a really good chance that something really awful was about to
happen.

But it didn't.

So the question was, what do you do now? We tried to impress upon him never to
do something like that again, but he clearly didn't grasp the full potential
force of his actions. We were like 20 at the time, and ill-equipped to deal
with children on this level, so we probably should have relayed the event to
an adult of some sort, but we were too worried about how it would be
perceived, so we just moved on.

Neither of us stopped volunteering because of the incident, but I'll never
forget the sinking dread of that instant, that's for sure.

[http://www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/e7l16/i_work_with...](http://www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/e7l16/i_work_with_atrisk_children_26_and_have_a_hard/)

~~~
DanielBMarkham
I'll never forget when my two oldest kids (now in their 20s) went to one of
those early head-start kind of places when they were a kid.

One week the lesson was on inappropriate touching. I know this because both
kids spent the next month inappropriately touching everybody they met -- with
some very humorous results.

Of all the things that have changed in the last 40 years or so, this thing
we've done where we've trained everybody to be afraid of each other is
probably the worst. Every day parents are bombarded by statistically highly-
unlikely events that they take to be commonplace. It's made an awful impact on
the fabric of society. Very sad.

~~~
simias
All the french people in the audience will remember the Outreau trial (
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outreau_trial> ) where several innocent people
spent years in prison and one commited suicide, all that based on the lies of
two persons and bogus psychiatric expertise of the children. The media also
took a big part in this debacle. I think it really made people realize
something here, I don't think this could happen again anytime soon. I hope you
won't have to live something like that in the US to make things change.

People should be presumed innocent unless proven guilty, not the other way
around. The modern western society would have us think otherwise (and not only
for child molesting, see CCTV, airport screenings, ...).

~~~
bmastenbrook
Ah, but we did live through it in the '80s with the satanic abuse hoax, and we
didn't learn anything. In fact, the people involved in pushing the hoax were
rewarded with higher office. See
[http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142405274870428120457500...](http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704281204575003341640657862.html)
for a good writeup of the case.

------
InclinedPlane
The media deserves a good chunk of blame for this phenomenon. They have
inflamed society's fears into paranoia by hyping and over-reporting
exceptional events, giving the false impression that child predators are
anywhere and everywhere.

Meanwhile, children are far more likely to be physically or sexually abused or
kidnapped by close relatives. But that story is less compelling from a media
perspective so the public is less exposed to it.

~~~
defroost
I agree. I also think that like many things, this kind of paranoia regarding
pedophilia is taken the the extreme in the US. I've spent time in several
European countries, Greece for example, where it is perfectly OK for an adult
man to pat someone else's child on the head without the mother pulling the kid
close.

------
meterplech
Lenore Skenazy is actually the leader of an entire movement around kids being
able to do more of what they want (hence the book: Free Range Kids). You can
check out the blog here: <http://freerangekids.wordpress.com/>

Also, she caused quite a stir a few years ago for letting her 9 year old kid
ride the subway alone. Her story about it is here:
[http://www.nysun.com/news/why-i-let-my-9-year-old-ride-
subwa...](http://www.nysun.com/news/why-i-let-my-9-year-old-ride-subway-alone)

~~~
nollidge
Skenazy was also featured in an episode (608) of Penn & Teller's Bullshit
about the topic.

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Penn_%26_Teller:_Bullsh...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Penn_%26_Teller:_Bullshit!_episodes#Season_6:_2008)

------
Florin_Andrei
All the newspapers and TV stations and social media and whatnot create an
environment very different from the one we evolved with. This is not the small
tribe living in the savanna anymore, yet we react to news exactly the same
way.

Hence all the bizarre attitudes like the one described in this article.

~~~
ry0ohki
It's like the "mass animal deaths" stuff at the beginning of the year. Despite
all statistics saying it's normal, it suddenly feels like a real problem
because the news is covering it. 24/7 news is probably the worst thing to come
from the 20th century.

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limist
I didn't know the author's gender until the end. Nice to see a woman pointing
out misandry.

------
nmaio
Male nanny here.

Anyway, I was an education major and one my male professors would always
stress to the males in the class that they should be extremely cautious when
dealing with children (don't hold their hands, etc):

The professor started out teaching first grade, and one time, a boy in his
class came out of the bathroom with his pants down because he couldn't get
them back up. Before the boy could even ask for help, the professor ran down
the hallway to the nearest classroom with a female teacher to have her pull up
the boys pants.

I'm not offended by the way it is though. Like how at the Iowa daycare center
where the one male aide can't even be in the room while diapers are being
changed. I was taught to stay far away from those types of situations and to
be honest, if it makes someone feel better that I'm not in there - that's fine
by me.

~~~
TheSOB88
Slippery slope, dude.

------
narrator
I remember when this all got started in the early 90s. The 80s were pretty
mellow but then I think the Polly Klass murder in California was a watershed
moment where the politicians and the news media just went for it with the
insane anti-male paranoid stuff. All the school policies changed and
everything got excessively locked down and paranoid.

~~~
sueders100
The 80s weren't completely serene either though. That's when the whole day
care sex abuse hysteria really picked up steam.

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Day_care_sex_abuse_hysteria>

------
Splines
Sadly, it's difficult to compare the hand-wavy benefit (letting children
interact with men) with the real cost of having something happen to your
child.

As a parent, I'm of the opinion that the media blows kidnappings and the like
way out of proportion. Even then, it's difficult to look at the data
objectively, because it's your children.

~~~
gaius
Kidnapping and child abuse are almost always relatives or friends of the
family. Strangers, statistically, are very safe.

------
Dylanlacey
I get a weird mix of this.

I'm a scout leader in Australia, where Scouts is non-denominational, non-
discriminatory and mixed gender. I'm a Venturer leader, the 14 - 18 year olds,
and I'm gay.

These things ARE linked. I'm a Venturer leader because it was this or being a
Joey leader, which is the under 10's, and I just CBF dealing with that noise,
because I'm also gay, which makes parents immediately suspicious. 'Cause, you
know, once a little bit of a pervert, NATURALLY a complete monster. Just like
how litterbugs all become worse then Pol Pot.

So, on the one hand I avoided one sort of leadership. On the other, I'm wanted
because I'm a male, I can relate to the younger dudes. At camps we have a
leader of both sexes not because there are touching fears, but because kids
need someone of either gender to talk too if they need it, to make them
comfortable.

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johngalt
This also extends to other areas as well.

If a man is furiously yelling and striking a woman in public the police will
be called on the man. If a woman is yelling and furiously slapping a man, the
police will be called on the _man_.

Consider that: 1\. Men receive stiffer sentences for the same crime.

2\. Men are routinely ruined by family court, because of the instant trump
card that an abuse accusation brings. Additionally they have few options when
they are the victim of abuse.

------
agentultra
It bothers me.

I used to assist teaching a Saturday morning martial arts class for kids. The
change-rooms were communal; nothing unusual and I never thought anything of
it. Then I was told that it made the parents uncomfortable and I had to change
in the office. Suddenly I felt embarrassed and shameful.

Then I was shocked that I had felt such feelings. I don't experience much, if
any, discrimination in my life. I really empathize with those who do. It's
terrible.

------
jswinghammer
I teach first grade Sunday School at my church and I definitely noticed that
parents were uncomfortable with me being alone with the kids for a few weeks.
This in spite of the fact that I'm a leader in our church and I knew a lot of
the parents outside of this setting. I also had to have a background check
before being allowed to help out.

It was pretty annoying but the parents got over it when they saw that their
kids loved having me there. This is in part because I always seem to end up
discussing Star Wars or video games with the boys for at least part of the
time.

What's funny (and sad) is that this attitude spills over into family life. My
brother won't kiss my oldest daughter on the lips despite her insistence that
he do so (she has some pretty strong opinions). His response was that "I don't
do that with kids."

~~~
follower
That last comment made me think of this sentence from a student's recent
petition to reverse a school's "No hugging" policy:

"Interpersonal touch is not inherently sexual, and to treat it as such is to
make it so."

[http://www.boingboing.net/2011/01/17/kids-petition-
agains.ht...](http://www.boingboing.net/2011/01/17/kids-petition-agains.html)

------
jacquesm
Nothing to be proud of here, but very recently a huge child pornography case
was uncovered in a dutch day care center where a guy molested and filmed the
molesting of upwards of 80 children together with his partner.

The case is extreme both in scope, gravity of the offenses, duration and in
the position of trust the perpetrators were in and it will take a long long
time for that to blow over again.

'Eek A Male' is very much a response heard around daycare centers here.

[http://www.wtop.com/?nid=383&sid=2198339](http://www.wtop.com/?nid=383&sid=2198339)

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mcknz
A BBC story from 2006? Stories from her friends? That's the best she's got?
Would be nice to see a real article on this topic with actual analysis and
data.

Of course it's stupid to label all men as possible predators, but there's
another side to it: when a single pedophile can damage literally hundreds of
children, who wouldn't have cause for concern?

The challenge is to find the level of concern that is reasonable and
warranted, but this article can't be bothered with gray areas.

~~~
scottkrager
I think this is a situation where the votes this story is getting ARE the
data.

I imagine many men voting this story up have noticed this trend in their own
lives.

It's not hard data, but it shows a trend.

Heck just yesterday I rode an elevator up with 2 parents and their maybe 3
year old kid. The kid had been out in the rain and I made a comment directly
to the child about the rain. The parents looked pissed just because I was
talking to their kid.

I was just trying to make awkward elevator conversation a little less awkward.

~~~
mcknz
I don't disagree with the notion that people overreact to men around kids, but
I think the article itself is just a lazy appeal to emotion, and not very well
argued.

------
jambo
This one really bugged me: "Three airlines, British Airways, Qantas and Air
New Zealand, have attracted criticism for controversial seating policies which
discriminate against adult male passengers on the basis of their gender."
Fortunately BA has changed its policy.

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airline_sex_discrimination_poli...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airline_sex_discrimination_policy_controversy)

------
yason
What a fucking horrible way to live :-(

------
trustfundbaby
Reminds me of this Reddit post
[http://www.reddit.com/r/WTF/comments/cf8j9/14_year_old_charg...](http://www.reddit.com/r/WTF/comments/cf8j9/14_year_old_charged_with_abduction_for_helping_a/)

------
gaius
3 comments on this, and 200 on some girl whining that (male) geeks "hurt her
feelings".

~~~
haploid
Which article are you referring to ?

~~~
gaius
This one: <http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2110756>

Obv there are more comments here now :-)

~~~
vacri
It's funny how that works - a brand new article not having much commentry. No
such thing as confirmation bias, eh?

~~~
Semiapies
Oh, come on - he gave it a _full eight minutes_ before complaining that some
_girl_ got more attention in a thread on her post.

~~~
gaius
Just pointing out that men face real, actual discrimination, whereas actually
there is nothing preventing women working IT jobs if they want to.

~~~
Semiapies
Cry us a river, gaius. If things like this article count as "real, actual
discrimination", then pretty much every women-in-tech complaint includes tales
of "real, actual discrimination".

~~~
gaius
THe article? No. The underlying fact that innocent men are hounded from their
jobs by the cops they pay to protect them? Absolutely yes.

~~~
vacri
And innocent women aren't hounded from their tech jobs by the 'boys club' that
is IT?

It's not a competition.

------
juiceandjuice
I went to the Exploratorium by myself on Sunday. I figured people would
probably assume I wasn't there by myself. But I couldn't help thinking about
this Asiz Ansari joke where he's talking to a kid at a museum, and finds out
they have a lot of things in common, including Call of Duty on xbox, theories
about LOST and stuff, and then the kid's dad leaves him there with his new
"friend"

