
Flash vs HTML - Waste Invaders - polskibus
http://flashvhtml.com/
======
fjarlq
Two problems with the HTML5 version in Chrome:

1) No audio

2) If my mouse cursor moves off the window it loses control of the ship

Flash version has neither of these problems.

No idea why audio is broken. I tried a couple HTML5 audio test pages and it
works there.

I'm using Chrome beta 26.0.1410.28 on both Windows 7 and OSX Lion, broken on
both.

I didn't notice any other differences.

~~~
coffeeaddicted
Exact same problems in Firefox. Also background scrolling in flash was
somewhat smoother.

------
arocks
They could have also included some technical parameters like framerate, memory
consumption or battery usage for the sake of comparison.

Even if all browsers gain universal support for HTML5, we must remember that
Flash can exist outside browsers. A lot of flash games are in circulation
which are simply embedded inside Office documents. The actual Flash standalone
runtime is only a few megabytes in size. Flash content is highly compressed
and very efficiently packed.

In other words, the problem is not Flash per se, it is the Adobe runtime of
Flash. Just like Google changed the browser game by introducing an extremely
efficient browser, someone can (in theory) develop a mobile friendly,
efficient (and open source) runtime. Flash format quite close to the ideal for
games.

~~~
wladimir
_someone can (in theory) develop a mobile friendly, efficient (and open
source) runtime_

I don't think the format is documented to that level. And even if it is, it is
very complex and hard to get right for other implementations (and it is a
moving target controlled by one player, a bit like MS office formats).

And why bother? If you have the choice, why not go with HTML5 which already
has some good and very fast free implementations available? Or as you're
implementing your own environment anyway, go completely native?

~~~
JackdawX
> And why bother? If you have the choice, why not go with HTML5 which already
> has some good and very fast free implementations available?

Well, I think this demo kind of proves why not: it doesn't work the same way
on everyones browser. We've been talking for years now about html5 games
obsoleting flash, but it doesn't seem to be coming together does it? My
opinion on why not? We've got some serious problems with the spec and the
people producing the spec. Even with the infinite resources of google, the
chrome browser is not actually 100% compliant! Is that even fixable at this
late stage of the game?

> Or as you're implementing your own environment anyway, go completely native?

That doesn't really help you distribute your games safely over the web to
multiple people. Also, cross platform development is actually quite time
consuming and hard, and the performance benefeits vs a VM are not really worth
it for the average 2D flash-type game.

~~~
wladimir
> Well, I think this demo kind of proves why not: it doesn't work the same way
> on everyones browser.

Still, you are comparing this to flash, which has only one complete
implementation _at all_ which is only available on a subset of platforms and
not open source. This number of platforms is decreasing, not increasing (ie,
Android dropped).

> That doesn't really help you distribute your games safely over the web to
> multiple people.

Agreed, no one solved the problem of cross-platform application development
(both desktop and mobile) yet. And flash doesn't succeed much, if any, better
than HTML5 in this regard. But looking forward HTML5 looks more promising too
me.

~~~
rschmitty
> Still, you are comparing this to flash, which has only one complete
> implementation at all which is only available on a subset of platforms

Huh?

A flash swf or flash compiled app is available on _all_ platforms. We aren't
talking Flash on the iPhone, this is Flash _compiled_ to native for the
iPhone.

Haxe NME and Unity3D are similar in that they let you write once and deploy to
many. They also in fact let you "deploy to flash". They do this because if you
know your audience, you know you need to still support IE8 and while you get
IE8 you also get IE7/6. Believe it or not businesses are locked into these
horrible browsers. Going 100% HTML5 is cool and trendy but why would you elect
to cut off a subset of your users (who you are trying to make $ off of)

Haxe and Adobe (not sure about Unity) are also allowing you to export to
HTML5. This would be interesting if they compared performance with that.

We are all looking forward to HTML5 taking over, but we are far from that
place right now.

~~~
wladimir
> Haxe NME and Unity3D are similar in that they let you write once and deploy
> to many. They also in fact let you "deploy to flash".

I think you're distorting my argument a bit -- I wouldn't invest in developing
new flash app or game, but if you can get flash support for free through
"compile to flash" I don't see any reason for not supporting it as extra
option.

------
networked
I tried this on slightly older hardware [1] running Linux Mint 13 x86_64 and
here's what I found:

First, even scrolling the website itself was slow and jerky in Firefox 19.0.
When I switched to Chromium 24.0.1312.56 the website scrolled nicely. The
Flash version of the game ran somewhat choppily with Flash 11.0.1.152 and I
could see distinct seams in the scrolling background [2]. However, it had
sound and was overall playable. When I tried the HTML 5 version it ran
smoothly but felt too fast (seemingly faster than the Flash version would have
been with a good frame rate) and had no sound.

The total memory/CPU usage as reported by Chromium's task manager is higher
with Flash [3]. Unfortunately, it doesn't report the frame rate for Flash.

Edit WRT the game's design: when I first played the game I went to grab a
power-up and my ship apparently got enveloped in some sort of a bright and
colourful energy ring. I couldn't tell whether that was a good thing that
happened because I picked up the power-up or a bad thing caused by an
encounter with a nearby enemy bullet. I had to watch the life counter in the
top right until it happened again to know for sure that that's what it looks
like when my ship explodes. The explosion looks bright, colourful and pretty,
and it's not immediately clear it indicates failure.

[1] <http://www.thinkwiki.org/wiki/Category:X61s>; mine has an L7500 CPU.

[2] <http://imgur.com/qpOIwUt>

[3] <http://imgur.com/gRfi5KV,E6B1oeG>

------
dave1010uk
When comparing Flash and HTML5, Flash wins 4 out of the 5 criteria but the
balance scales end up with them both equal.

Also, Flash gets a 0% for mobile browsers as new phones don't get Flash
Player. I'm willing to be that a higher number of smart phones in use today
have Flash Player installed (all but iOS and recent Android) than have a
browser that supports all the HTML5 required for the game.

~~~
holtbp
Flash fails to reach a large portion of the market, so Flash fails. HTML5 is
the future. Also, this game (and many other flash experiences) crash my Flash
plugin and take up more CPU usage than HTML5 video or canvas experiences.

~~~
tluyben2
What are you running? For me Flash does less CPU. I agree with HTML5 being the
future, but the future is not now.

------
ferongr
I'm not really sure I could tell them apart in an ABX test. But it's not like
the game is demanding in any way. The amount of sprites is way too low and
they're all bitmaps. Furthermore, you don't need the webaudio api to playback
an audio track and few effects concurrently, like this game does. Standard
<audio> elements with the preload attribute work fine [1].

What I'd like to see is a comparison between 2D vector graphic performance of
Flash compared to Web technologies as implemented in browsers. In my
experience browsers are still very slow at that (without WebGL) while Flash
had excellent performance for as long as I remember.

[1][http://robert.ocallahan.org/2011/11/latency-of-
html5-sounds....](http://robert.ocallahan.org/2011/11/latency-of-
html5-sounds.html)

------
TelmoMenezes
I'm not voting because you require me to "like" you on facebook. I wouldn't
have a problem giving you a like if you weren't trying to manipulate me.

I know this is not a scientific poll but just a marketing effort disguised as
one, and that's ok, but I would try to be less disingenuous about it.

Nice game, btw.

~~~
pacomerh
"Manipulate me", oh people take this so seriously.

~~~
lucb1e
I wouldn't play any game that required me to like anything.

~~~
Funnnny
You can play the game without liking anything, can't you ?

~~~
ebbv
Yep. It's required if you want to vote in the meaningless survey, though.

------
doomlaser
The performance of the HTML5 version is smooth and quite impressive, but
HTML5's achilles heel is sound. I didn't have any audio.

This game aside, I still haven't played an HTML5 game with audio that wasn't
plagued by high latency / other funkiness.

~~~
wereHamster
Sadly Firefox doesn't support the WebAudio API, only an older audio API. The
WebAudio API was designed primarily by Google and is very nice. It's only
supported by Chrome AFAIK. Last year at Google IO they had a talk about it. We
use the API in our game, and it works great.

~~~
pbhjpbhj
browserquest.mozilla.org managed to do sound OK.

~~~
wereHamster
It's certainly possible to play sounds in all modern browsers. It may be a bug
in the game. Or they simply decided not to support all the APIs. We did that
because it doesn't make sense to support two different sound APIs when in a
few months there will be one as a W3C standard supported by the two major
browser engines (screw IE, it doesn't even do WebGL).

------
antihero
HTML5 version ran WAY faster for me (Chromium Linux) but without sound :(

~~~
brazzy
To me (Firefox on Windows 7), Flash seemed a little more responsive, but not
radically so.

~~~
StavrosK
HTML5 ran faster for me as well. "Faster" as in "everything was sped up at
2x".

------
psionski
Flash - <http://imgur.com/fj0AH2r> HTML5 - <http://imgur.com/dLmHfbE>

I'd say HTML wins with my browser configuration.

------
fmavituna
Yesterday I played this : Kingsroad - <https://www.rumblegames.com/kingsroad>

First I thought it was HTML 5 and the best HTML 5 game I've ever seen, turned
out it's Flash Stage3D stuff. It might be possible to develop games like this
in HTML 5 but I haven't seen one yet.

------
jandy
That was an interesting comparison.

As others have said, no sound on the HTML5 version.

There were some minor differences between the two that I found interesting.
The HTML5 scrolling would occasionally stutter; however, the Flash version
suffered from some slight alignment issues in the tiles.

Overall I was very impressed by the HTML5 version, the two were almost
impossible to tell apart. I doubt (apart from the obvious audio issue) I
would've known which was which if I hadn't been told beforehand.

------
kayoone
I love the open approach to the technologies. I do all my game programming in
Unity (which supports Flash deployment and will offer HTML5 as soon as its
ready i bet) but im also looking into HTML5 and writing games in Javascript.

The website is also totally aswesome, you wrote you did it in flash ? Did you
redo it in JS or convert it somehow ?

------
n2j3
Tested on macmini 2009 (or 2006? the one without hdmi anyway , 2GB ram, Core2
T7200@2.00GHz, Intel 945GM onboard GPU >_< etc) running Debian wheezy and
compton. Surprisingly html5 was the smoothest of the two, but with no sound.
Conversely, sound was crisp but the game itself seriously 'choppier' (with
regards to FPS) in Flash 11.2.202.258 .

Obligatory htop screenshots: <http://666kb.com/i/cc6jh5a4d3wqopmqu.png> <
Flash <http://666kb.com/i/cc6jhhh5ywa8qrlgm.png> < html5

Browser in use: Chromium 24.0.1312.68

Not sure if the compositor (compton) is responsible for the lag or something
else entirely. I don't really have the time to test any further :S

------
synor
I lost mouse focus a couple of times by moving the pointer out of the browser
window in the HTML5 version which lead to multiple game deaths. This didn't
happen with the flash version. Is there some technical barrier in browsers
preventing complete mouse capturing?

------
tluyben2
Flash version is much better. Less CPU for me as well. I do native
mobile/flash/html5 versions for games I make; the html5 versions rarely get
any play time. People download native on iOS/Android and on Mac/Win they play
the flash version.

------
sspiff
I tried both on my Windows 7 laptop from work, which runs on a first-gen i5
and HD2000 graphics.

The HTML5 version runs smoothly, the Flash one is barely playable and has lots
of visible tearing from the lack of VSync.

------
Lionga
On my android (which was the only reason for HTML5) the game does not run at
all.

------
Mahn
None of the two scrolled smoothly for me. I guess that makes it a draw :-)

------
monk_e_boy
I saw the intro, then a blank deep blue screen. Nothing happened. Boring.

------
doormat23
Hello! The HTML5 audio does not work because I didn't have time to add it in
:)

The main timeline was animated in flash and we wrote a little exporter to
output all the items to a js file.

------
georgeecollins
Do you know they get the HTML5 version to be a full screen app that doesn't
slide horizontally or vertically? I have been looking everywhere for how to do
that in Safari.

Thanks anyone.

------
frozenport
1\. Why does the airplane fly backwards? 2\. Flash and HTML5 version shave
different timings and different game-plays. HTML5 version seems to move faster
but with more skipped frames.

------
_quasimodo
I do like the HTML5 version, but i don't want to install flash so i can't
compare them.

But thanks for porting your game. Gives me hope that flash might die some day.

------
evadne
Reminds me of GreenSock TweenLite and indeed they’re using it for the
timeline. <http://www.greensock.com/>

------
prs
I tried the HTML5 game, kept pressing fire and switched to Exposé with the F3
key.

Worked for me to obtain auto fire on Chrome/Mountain Lion.

------
arms
I loved the presentation. Once I was done reading, I scrolled back up just to
view the whole thing again. Now, time to try the game :)

------
Tyrant505
I get a strange line that goes down the flash version every few seconds, nice
and slowly. Chrome, rMBP.

------
NicholasMurray
No noticeable difference for chrome (on xp) between each version apart from
the sound.

------
pbhjpbhj
Flash version won't start for me, FF19 on Ubuntu with Flash 11,2,202,270.

~~~
aliem
Flash on linux is dead, The only updated standard implementation comes from
Google Chrome (note: not Chromium)

------
goggles99
Game ran like complete garbage in HTML5 (Firefox 19, Windows7 i7 2600, 12GB
ram). It had a very low framerate, did not respond to mouse in a timely
fashion and had no sound. Ran completely smooth and flawless in Flash. Isn't
progress (HTML5) great.

~~~
edoloughlin
You should check your FF extensions. I had a very smooth experience on a much
older setup: FF19, OS X 10.7.5, Core2Duo 2.9GHz (MaxBookPro late 2008), 4GB
RAM.

I found that the HTML5 version tracked my mouse cursor more smoothly then
Flash.

~~~
babuskov
As long as your users have the same problem as goggles99, HTML5 will not be a
technology to choose. It is more likely that they already have Flash
installed, than being willing to "check their extensions".

BTW, HTML5 version runs really slow on my computer as well. FF1.9, Linux,
Core2Duo 1.6GHz, 2GB RAM, while Flash one works flawlessly.

------
camus
For those who wonder the tech behind is PIXI.js and some good old
TweenMax/TweenLite ( js version ). I wonder if they coded sprite movements by
hand or used a tool for that though. I'm just glad they did not use adobe edge
;) And yes it does run in IE9.

------
wilfra
Your landing page and the game are both amazingly well designed and fun to
interact with. Some of the best work I've seen.

~~~
degenerate
Agree. THIS is how you do parallax! I love how the scrollbar is nonexistent;
that somehow made the experience better!

