
Spaniards are less productive, constantly tired: Spain is in the wrong time zone - kumarski
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2013/09/26/spaniards-are-less-productive-constantly-tired-because-spain-is-in-the-wrong-time-zone/?hpid=z4
======
ashray
This I found a bit condescending:

 _This extra-long workday has given us some fun Spanish cultural quirks, like
the 9 p.m. dinner hour and the two-hour lunch break._

I know that folks in the US, Germany and some other countries eat at or around
6pm but I also know that folks in most of Latin America, India, Thailand, etc.
eat at 8-9pm or so. So why is this considered a 'cultural quirk' ? A little
culturally insensitive I must say.

~~~
gotrecruit
what's so condescending about the work "quirk"? as far as i'm concerned, the
word has never been known to be used in a derogatory manner.

~~~
moocowduckquack
So I assume your blindness to the possibility of condescension from someone
indicating that another countries cultural norms are nothing more than a
peculiar idiosyncracy, thus indicating that their own cultural standards
should be considered to be the norm, must be just a quirk in your character
and nothing to really take particularly seriously then.

(note, this comment is meant illustratively)

------
bbwharris
I lived in Spain for about a year. Blame it on the time zone, but inherently
the culture is "work to live" not "live to work".

I miss it and sincerely cherish that country and all the great people in it.

~~~
growupkids
Perhaps that was more of a culture coping mechanism?

With an unemployment rate of a staggering 50% for those under 25, and with 68%
of them leaving Spain to find work, and 12% overall unemployment for everyone
else: that sounds like a lot of people that don't even have a job.

That's not a good thing, perhaps the attitude of work to live, as said
previously, is more of a coping mechanism. Otherwise, maybe this is at the
core of their unemployment problems? The more I read about their labor laws,
it just sounds bad in Spain. And the youth unemployment problem sounds like a
disaster in the making.

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008–13_Spanish_financial_crisi...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008–13_Spanish_financial_crisis#Employment_crisis)

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008–13_Spanish_financial_crisi...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008–13_Spanish_financial_crisis#Youth_Unemployment)

~~~
hnriot
more likely it's the opposite, the reason for the unemployment rates and poor
GDP is because of this attitude to work. Its like trying find a ton of
explanations for something when the big pink elephant in the room is being
ignored. Ever since the British defeated their "invincible" Armada Spain has
tried to compete with the rest of Europe and struggled, culminating with the
current financial crisis. The time zone nonsense has nothing to do with it.

~~~
moocowduckquack
Compare the UK manufacturing sector to the Spanish. The only reason that we
are not (yet) in much worse straights than Spain and Italy is because we are
the place to route the money through.

On paper the UK has the worst economic exposure in the OECD and produces very
little indeed.

We are little more than a service economy for banking at this point, and UK
banking has the lion's share of our total debt, dwarfing what is owed by the
public sector. Luckily we are considered the stable place, so people continue
to put their money here, but I suspect that is more of a confidence trick than
anything else.

------
leugim
"Everyone in Spain feels jetlagged all the time"

Hahahahaah, I live in Spain and that is bullshit.

------
crazygringo
What? This doesn't even begin to make sense, just like the article says in the
beginning -- Americans are an hour off for the majority of the year, and it
doesn't seem to be harming anything.

If there's any kind of special Spanish fatigue, I can't believe it has
anything to do with their timezone -- it's the entire cultural thing of
sleeping/relaxing at siesta, and staying up late. Spaniards don't work late
because of anything to do with the natural setting of the sun, it's the fact
that they take a three-hour "lunch"!

Yet somehow the article neglects to mention this at all...

~~~
portlandish
Daylight Savings Time drives me into a borderline suicidal apathy for most of
the year. Halloween is the perfect prelude to 6 months of stormy irritability
for me, during that miserable span of the year when I wake up in darkness,
travel home in darkness, and suffer through my miserable hell of 9-to-5
drudgery bathed in a buzzing, artificial flourescent light.

I am an American who lives his life an hour off for the majority of the year,
and I will tell you that it pretty much harms everything, from my point of
view. But I just sit here and take it.

You see, that's the thing about the apathy this institutionalized circadian
chaos and lack of sunlight induces. It immerses you into a hell you can't be
bothered to alleviate yourself from. And when you grow up in public schools
which heap layer, upon layer of pointlessness atop your life, this is just one
more thing, and at some point you just stop caring and capitulate to the
stupidity of TV dinners, 2 liter bottles of soda, and mindless sitcoms that
you hate but can't stop watching.

It's a sort of perpetual, depressive cabin fever, where there are never any
trees or animals or sky. You're ferried back and forth to your stations in
life by automobiles, buses, or underground trains, wondering what happened to
the timeless but fleeting enthusiasm of summer, and you stare out the window
all day, but you'll never feel enough sunlight and wind on your face at the
same time during the winter. In my gut there has always been an undeniable
sensation that there's something wrong with that. These compulsory, artificial
extremes.

I envy you and your life which is so insulated from this annual exercise in
negation.

~~~
aaronbrethorst
I'm guessing you live in Portland based upon your handle. I live in Seattle
and have dealt with SAD-like symptoms every winter for the ten years I've been
here. I highly recommend buying a high-lux lightbox. I got one last winter and
it marked a sea change in my mood during the darker months.

------
donall
This article ignores the fact that one region in Spain (the Canary Islands)
operates on the "correct" time zone. I have lived both in the Canaries and in
mainland Spain and I can tell you that there is no appreciable difference in
the attitudes described by the article. Spain's problems (if indeed they are
problems) are cultural and cannot be attributed to hours of sunlight.

This is clearly just an example of the Spanish parliament looking for a
scapegoat for the woeful state of the Spanish economy.

~~~
olmo
Actually Canary Islands is also in the wrong time zone.

Spain should be in 0 (and France, Moroco, Argelia, etc...) just as UK.

Portucal could chose, since it just in the middle, currently is 0.

Canary Islands should go to -1.

[http://www.travel.com.hk/region/time_95.jpg](http://www.travel.com.hk/region/time_95.jpg)

Anyway, I think it will be a good marketing movement for Spain, as I've
explained, so we get rid of a little bit of the lazy country fame.

------
chasing
It looks like about half of the countries in that little map are off of their
natural time zone by at least as much as Spain. Including basically all of the
former Soviet Union, except the Ukraine and Baltics. And Iceland. And, well,
France, which mostly overlaps Spain time-zone-wise.

~~~
Jacqued
Indeed, it seems like an incomplete explanation at the very least.

France largely overlaps Spain in terms of [latitude] longitude, is in the same
time zone, shares some of the traditions cited in the article (long lunch
break, midddle-of-the-morning and middle-of-the-afternoon coffee breaks,
dinner at 8pm), and has one of the highest productivities in the world, in
line with the US, Japan or the UK (above if you count it per hour worked).

So maybe they should look for an explanation somewhere else

Edit : fixed latitude instead of longitude

~~~
mynegation
You most definitely meant "longitude", not "latitude", right?

~~~
Jacqued
I did, you're right. Thanks for pointing that out !

------
juusto
Hogwash.

What about the higher productivity of Scandinavians? They shift back and forth
on "time-zones" due to the constant change of amount of light because of the
very hash winter. Sometimes with as few as 3 hours of light, not sun, but
still maintain the same level of productivity.

Currently, Spanish primetime stretches until after midnight <\- Well what
about making less time for primetime? Or less siestas?

~~~
opminion
The so called (in English) "siesta", which in Spanish would be just "the lunch
break", is a compulsory long break in many professions. Many would rather
close shop at 5 or 6 than at 9pm, but everyone has to do it at once or it
won't work.

The solution most would expect to succeed is a legal one: I know of a dev shop
that could easily switch to a 9-5 schedule, as many banks and civil servants
have already, but it has to keep a split timetable just because management
wants it so.

~~~
acchow
> Many would rather close shop at 5 or 6 than at 9pm

Wait, how does extending lunch by an extra hour push closing time by 3-4
hours?

~~~
yebyen
I guess everyone is slow after a two hour lunch having three or six cervezas
for an extra hour or two of the afternoon?

I don't know, that's a good question.

~~~
Oletros
> I guess everyone is slow after a two hour lunch having three or six cervezas
> for an extra hour or two of the afternoon?

What are you talking about?

~~~
yebyen
I'm not accusing anyone of being an alcoholic, I just know what I would be
doing if I had a mandatory 2-hour lunch every day! And it's not eating
(probably not as much as I do now)

EDIT: On the chance that my ambiguous grammar has got you tied... in the right
order, I would be a bit slow for an hour or two in the afternoon, after having
three or six cervezas.

------
peteratt
As a Spaniard living in Chicago, I can't stress enough how AWESOME it is to
have the time zone we have in Spain and how much I HATE when Sun sets at 4:30
PM in Winter in Chicago, despite being at comparable latitudes. All my Spanish
friends here agree with me, if it was up to us we'd change Chicago's timezone
to EST! And also for the other side, sun setting at 10 PM in Summer is
Happiness with a capital H. Go ask German or British summer tourists, go ask
them :)

If that was true that Spaniards are less productive and constantly tired
(which is not, as many of HNers have pointed out) it is not because of the
time zone. It's simply because of the toxic work culture that exists in most
places, more oriented towards "appearance" of working hard, and that means
long hours more than plain simple productivity.

Again, don't get the wrong picture. Most companies in Spain do not have
siesta, do not stop three hours for lunch, though 45 min-1 hour is usually the
norm and I find it better than having lunch at the desk US-style. The problem
is that working from 9 AM to 7 PM is the . If you don't do that, even if
you're a top performer, you'd be suggested to "improve yourself", simply
because people are envious of your sane working hours. So they say, envy is
Spain's national sin.

~~~
Willyfrog
This is the real problem. The only way to cope with that is having a job you
like. My week is by contract 40 hours long, but I do at least 45 and 50 is not
uncommon either.

------
peterjmag
Funny, I was just thinking about this earlier today. Specifically, I was
comparing the sunrise/sunset times for A Coruña, Spain and Niš, Serbia, two
cities that share a time zone despite over 1500 miles between them. (I chose
these cities because they're at approximately the same latitude near one of
the widest points of the CET zone.) Their respective sunrises are a whole two
hours apart:

[http://www.gaisma.com/en/location/a-coruna.html](http://www.gaisma.com/en/location/a-coruna.html)

[http://www.gaisma.com/en/location/nis.html](http://www.gaisma.com/en/location/nis.html)

The Central European time zone could probably use a bit of fragmentation.

A more extreme example is China, which has been "unified" under one single
time zone since 1949, despite the fact that the country's over 3000 miles
wide. That makes for a _four hour_ difference in sunrises between east and
west. Of course, this is a bit problematic for the west:

[http://www.wisegeek.org/why-does-china-have-only-one-time-
zo...](http://www.wisegeek.org/why-does-china-have-only-one-time-zone.htm)

------
ollysb
This feels incredibly hand wavy. I moved to Spain from the UK last year and
one of the huge benefits for me is that the hours feel far more natural. I
tend to go out fairly late in the evenings (usually 1 or 2), get up earlyish
(around 9:30) and then crash for a bit in the afternoon. I naturally tend
towards this cycle but obviously in the UK it's a bit difficult (no siesta and
the pubs tend to shut about 11:30).

With regards to time spent at home, the Spanish seem to spend a far greater
portion of their normal lives socialising. I really don't see how more time
spent at home could be listed as a positive thing. In the UK it makes me think
of long cold winters when no one wants to leave the house because it's so
miserable outside.

------
wslh
I love to talk about prejudices and cultural biases. I always recommend an
excellent paper: Cultural Biases in Economic Exchange
[http://m.nber.org//papers/w11005](http://m.nber.org//papers/w11005) (free
download)

------
olmo
I'm Spanish and I've software company. Here is my schedule:

9-14 morning work

14-15 lunch

15-18 evening work

18-20 (aprox) partners-only work

Dunno in construction or other sectors, in consultancy we work more hours and
I've never seen anybody taking siesta on labor days. Some people make siesta
when 2 of the following 3 things are true: Summer + Old people + Sunday.

~~~
olmo
I don't think that changing the time zone is going to make any productivity or
'family time' change. We work a lot of hours because there are more employees
than companies. Market laws.

I think, however, that changing the time zone will improve our reputation.
Currently we're at sync with sun time, but from the point of view of a tourist
it means that we have lunch, get out of work, have dinner and go to bed at
least 1 hour later than on 'normal countries', and this contributes to the
fame of 'lazy country'.

Once we change the hour, after a period of adaptation, we will do everything
pretty much the same but S&P will come an say... hey! look at Spain, now they
deserve credit because they go to bed earlier, we should lend them money!.

Finally, we currently go into work at 9 as everyone else, but for us the sun
is at 8. Nobody realizes because we have more sun hours (in winter).

------
jaimebuelta
I love when they talk about the magical properties of time zones.

No, moving the clock an hour up or down is not going to have a huge effect
into a country in the long term. That's magical thinking.

------
leugim
I also have to say in Spain almost 2/3 of PIB is generated by services sector
(Turism is a big thing here) and the rest by manufacturing industries and
primary sector (Fishing and agriculture) and in services sector the
productivity is minor than in the other sector because you can't improve your
production with technichal changes, you have to hire more people with the same
productivity.

Pd: If you see the stats is not really a problem. The differences aren't so
big.

------
codex
In this age of software and asynchronous communication, there is little reason
to have so few time zones, or to have one 1d timezones rather than 2d. It
would be nice if local time continuously skewed a few seconds each day
(sometime around three a.m. perhaps) such that sunrise was always at seven
a.m. Most (non-cave-dwelling) humans evolved to rise with the sun.

~~~
michas
Timezones were introduced exactly to prevent the very thing that you propose:
need to adjust clocks a few seconds each day. It was just too annoying.

~~~
codex
Sure, but software clocks could adjust themselves automatically based on your
GPS location. Almost nobody uses a mechanical clock anymore.

~~~
batbomb
The problem isn't where you are at, it's where you are going.

~~~
codex
Easy enough to calculate your destination time via software as well. I wonder
if 2D time zones would reduce cancer incidence by encouraging consistent
melatonin production via a daylight synchronized sleep cycle.

------
outside1234
Ha! I thought they were going to say that Spain should be in the Eastern
Timezone of the United States.

Seriously, the Spaniards I worked with were up until 2am regularly - and the
country eats dinner at 10pm at the earliest - yet get up for a 9am workday. Is
there any doubt why they are tired?

~~~
Dewie
Not to mention partying to 6 am. But staying up 'till 2 am is not necessarily
a problem if they take a midday nap.

------
steveplace
Did the Spanish government commission a study to place their economic woes on
a time zone issue?

------
gordaco
Spaniard here. I'd rather have the extra sun hour in my free time than having
daylight at my first hour in the office. I don't want it to be dark at 17:00
in winter.

------
w1ntermute
This isn't a Spanish problem, it's a Southern European problem. You cannot be
lazy and expect to lead a good life - the math just won't add up.

~~~
moocowduckquack
Spain has a higher productivity per employed worker than Germany, however
since the collapse of the construction industry they have rampant
unemployment. The Spanish are not lazy, although your argument certainly is.

[http://rwer.wordpress.com/2011/10/24/southern-european-
worke...](http://rwer.wordpress.com/2011/10/24/southern-european-workers-
versus-northern-european-workers-5-charts/)

[http://rwer.wordpress.com/2012/11/29/jobs-and-
productivity-i...](http://rwer.wordpress.com/2012/11/29/jobs-and-productivity-
in-spain-2008-2012/)

~~~
acchow
The productivity is measured in an abstract unit (currency), not the actual
quality and quantity of product - thus it is open to distortions (such as
abnormally high foreign investment).

~~~
moocowduckquack
Fair enough.

If we ignore the numbers and just look at the situation a little more
generally then, Spain has gone through a massive construction boom that was
typified by speculative overbuilding, which is part of the current problem now
that too much has been built and the real estate prices have collapsed.

Building far too much is not often associated with lazyness on the part of the
workforce.

