
Ask HN: Good at programming but suck at Computer Science and coding interviews? - wh-uws
I recently started a group &#x2F; meetup at the hacker house I live in SF called &quot;Do you even code?&quot; that is for people like you.<p>I started a facebook group for it recently<p>https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.facebook.com&#x2F;groups&#x2F;871332856219191&#x2F;<p>Here is the mission statement.<p>&quot;This group is dedicated to all people who can program... but suck at data structures and algorithms coding interviews.<p>Those interviews where you have to get the answer right in under 10 minutes with nothing but a whiteboard, a toothpick, and 2 overworked engineers staring over your shoulder who just want to fill their rec who are wondering why the recruiter sent this idio...candidate in to them.<p>Soon there is that moment when one looks at you like &quot;Do you even code?&quot;<p>Then the nice recruiter walks in and tells you &quot;well that&#x27;s the last interview for the day!&quot;<p>And you get escorted off the premises. And a week later you get that form letter like &quot;We&#x27;re sorry but we&#x27;ve decided not to &#x27;move forward&#x27; &quot;<p>This is a place you can learn and share knowledge about how to cross the chasm between &quot;not moving forward&quot; to &quot;were excited to extend you an offer.&quot;<p>&quot;<p>Anyone in the SF bay area is invited, we meet at 8pm on Thursdays. If interest grows enough I will be making it an official meetup group.<p>The goal of the events to help expose  yourself to enough problems and solutions so that you can recognize problems and find solutions quickly.<p>https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.facebook.com&#x2F;events&#x2F;741079035947419&#x2F;
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yzzxy
Why not just learn the CS, Algorithms, and Data Structures fundamentals that
theses tests are looking for instead of gaming the system?

There are some interview processes that are unfair, pedantic, or irrelevant to
be sure (manhole covers come to mind), but most of the questions are at least
_founded_ in basic CS knowledge.

A good analogy is the math section of the SAT: some people can take the SAT
naturally and understand the question models it follows on the first try.
Others will go to tutors and memorize how to solve them, essentially
programming themselves for different word questions. Which group do you think
will have a more enjoyable and valuable experience at a difficult college that
requires a high SAT score?

It seems (to me) that it would be better to acquire the actual skills so you
can improve yourself and do the job rather than memorizing problems and
solutions. Even if you believe your job doesn't involve CS directly (webdev,
for instance), a more holistic understanding of computer science is sure to
benefit you in understand how and why the APIs and frameworks you use were
designed, and how you can write clean and performant code.

If your problem is performing in front of engineers on a whiteboard, and not
the theory, then you don't need to practice questions, you need to do mock
interviews.

~~~
iends
High SAT scores are not predictive of success at college, and neither are hard
interviews questions predictive of being a successful developer.

~~~
yzzxy
I may have not articulated this very well: Both groups in my metaphor (those
who naturally understand the SAT questions from learning mathematical
concepts, and those who are tutored on known SAT questions) were meant to be
among the high scorers on the test.

This would imply that SAT scores will not predict real performance, and the
same implications would apply to job interview questions that are gamed in a
similar fashion.

------
xpto123
Just don't apply to those companies, you probably wouldn't like it there
anyway.

In fact that interviewing style is being abandoned, see here the case of
Google: [http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2346126/Google-
aband...](http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2346126/Google-abandons-job-
interview-brainteasers-company-admits-completely-useless.html)

So why invest so much time and effort in preparation for an interviewing style
that is only practiced by a small minority of employers. Its a big world out
there.

One alternative: become a freelance, as those interviews are usually only for
employees, and you tend to take a lot less bulshit being interviewed as a
freelance, things are kept much more to the point.

Alternativelly, take this course at Coursera, lots of food for thought there
->
[https://www.coursera.org/course/algs4partI](https://www.coursera.org/course/algs4partI)

Still for those interviews you indeed need to prepare: buy books on how to do
those interviews, practice at home, etc. remember it has nothing to do with on
the job day to day work, its just an absurd silly game.

------
yunyeng
What background do you look for the event? and which language you guys use ?
This looks perfect for me who has front-end experience and trying to move on
to back-end...

~~~
wh-uws
Yunueng I myself am a person who has lots of front end experience.

The only background we look for is someone who has done some coding before.

This group is past the beginners level of not knowing how to code or use a
command line and things of that nature and is focused on algorithms, data
structures, complexity analysis and efficiency.

------
haidrali
cannot understand how can you program if you don't know data structures and
algorithms ...

~~~
izolate
There are specialties that don't require that knowledge. Show me how frontend
web developers can benefit from algorithmic CS knowledge.

~~~
kyllo
-Optimizing your JS for faster performance when mutating the DOM tree or some large array or object

-Understanding how a client-side framework like Angular or React or Ember actually works, e.g. how a finite state machine works, how the DOM is polled for changes, how templates are processed and rendered, these all require algorithms

-Writing your own client-side framework or compile-to-JS language

------
Madmallard
topcoder.com is probably the most effective tool for programming problem-
solving skills.

People that get any reasonable ranking on the algorithms section usually laugh
their way through interviews.

