
CHIP Vs. Pi Zero: Which Sub-$10 Computer Is Better? - dcschelt
http://makezine.com/2015/11/28/chip-vs-pi-zero/
======
owenversteeg
I'm surprised that nobody's mentioned the elephant in the room: CHIP's real
cost. Sure, CHIP "sells" at $9, but "shipping" costs $20. This "shipping" cost
remains the same per unit even for multiple items, even when they ship
together. Given that shipping from China is subsidized such that actual CHIP
shipping costs should be under $1, the "shipping" is clearly paying for the
CHIP.

Sure, CHIP is a solid device at $29, and the fact that the CHIP manufacturers
pulled off a successful hardware Kickstarter is a feat of its own. But
claiming that CHIP is a $9 computer is ridiculous. Additionally, as another
commenter mentioned, the CHIP's cost total didn't include a display cable,
$13. Re-run the comparison... and the costs come to $46 CHIP, $24 Raspi Zero.

~~~
yeukhon
Here from US. Element 14 charged shipping + tax = $6.55 + $3.69, total almost
$46 for model B. I ordered B+ from MCM (which I believe is also under the same
parent company as Element 14) and came at $9.99 shipping without tax.

Does CHIP order charge tax?

I don't think the elephant in the room is just the shipping cost, the overall
cost of getting this tiny computer up and running is beyond just some tax and
shipping cost. You have to get an SD card, power adapter and an HDMI. Tons of
people still run DVI or VGA. If you have a monitor without HDMI you are fucked
so you have to buy a converter. I didn't have these so I got them off Amazon
and the final cost probably came at about $100? I didn't even get the case,
because I made one out of cardboard.

If you have more than one Pi, you need another SD card, another charger,
another HDMI cable, so again you are back to full price. There should really
be just a way to connect all PIs to a single USB-powered portable drive. SD
card is such as poor choice and a poor design decision choice. Sorry.

PI is great for small project, but if there weren't fund for schools to buy
all the accessories, I don't know if Pi would take off at $35 price range. It
is never $35. Let alone in Zero's case, agree, definitely not at $5.

Fair enough, marketing stun and it may be true that the computer itself is $5,
but the fineprint "you have to get the rest yourself at another $30+" is
assumed to be common sense.

Oh not to mention the cost of waiting to get one of these tiny computers.

~~~
icebraining
$100 for an USB power adapter, an SD card and an HDMI cable? You got ripped
off. You can get the three for less than $20.

16GB Kingston card: $5.26

AmazonBasics USB charger (2 Amp): $5.99

AmazonBasics high-speed HDMI cable: $4.82

~~~
gPphX
* Raspberry Pi Zero

* $0.74 USB OTG Cable -Adapter -Converter | Free Shipping by eBay

* $1.49 HDMI cable HDMI mini -Adapter | Free Shipping by eBay

* $1.17 USB AC Charger 2A -eu -uk | Free Shipping by eBay

* $3.41 Kingston 4 GB Flash Memory Card SDC10/4GBSP | Free Shipping by Amazon

= $6.81 Peripheral Cost

~~~
vardump
Watch out for cheap USB chargers. They can be a safety risk. Google "cheap usb
charger teardown". For example [http://www.righto.com/2012/10/a-dozen-usb-
chargers-in-lab-ap...](http://www.righto.com/2012/10/a-dozen-usb-chargers-in-
lab-apple-is.html)

------
alexandros
While the CHIP comes out looking good, it's important to note the horrendous
AllWinner software stack. Last time I checked, Linux support meant using an
out-of-tree sourcedump that was tied to a specific version of Linux (I think
3.0.x?). The sunxi project[1] was trying to mainline a bunch of stuff, but not
sure how far that is now. In general, working with the AllWinner chip is much
more of a pain if you want to do non-trivial things. Perhaps the CHIP will
help improve that situation.

[1]: [https://github.com/linux-sunxi](https://github.com/linux-sunxi)

~~~
geerlingguy
I've run into this with all the AllWinner-derived boards. The software stack
requires more work to set up, has more small bugs that are harder to fix
(mostly because there aren't a thousand blog posts and forum topics on the
exact fix, like there are with anything Pi/Broadcom-related), and has often
incomprehensible documentation that's buried in forums or outdated and slow-
to-load sites.

------
kevinpet
This piece strikes me as downright dishonest. The table purports to be apples
to apples, but while the HDMI adapter added in for the pi zero, the $13 HDMI
add-on board is not included in the cost section of the CHIP.

An honest comparison would be $23 vs $24 with HDMI, or $10 vs. some lower cost
for the pi zero subtracting out the HDMI cable. I'm also skeptical of
including the OTG adapter. Maybe it's needed for some purposes, but it's not a
generally needed component.

The CHIP appears to be better for IOT experimentation, but the PI is intended
to be a general purpose computer, which also includes some hardware
integration tinkering capability.

~~~
makomk
You need the OTG adapter if you want to connect it to a network, or a keyboard
and mouse, or anything really. The only USB port on the Pi Zero is the micro-B
OTG one. There are lots of interesting applications for the Pi that don't use
HDMI at all, but few that don't use networking or a keyboard

------
teekert
Imo, a built-in wifi module on the Pi0 would have made it massively more
attractive. That way it can be put anywhere with just some sensors added. The
SD card is ok, it requires no extra stuff and can even be handy for
experimenting, but just adding wifi (which you want in >90% cases if you ask
me) means adding a powered hub. Armv7 would have been nice for Ubuntu (Snappy
Core or not).

~~~
icebraining
You don't need a powered hub, just a split USB cable that runs the power pins
to the charger and the data pins to the Pi.

Example: [http://www.amazon.com/Insten-Micro-B-USB-Cable-
Black/dp/B005...](http://www.amazon.com/Insten-Micro-B-USB-Cable-
Black/dp/B005M0ICG2/ref=pd_sim_147_3?ie=UTF8&dpID=41bt11uGOUL&dpSrc=sims&preST=_AC_UL160_SR160,160_&refRID=112E1AH44CX4GTE8MXXF)

~~~
jepler
I would not bet on this without a schematic for the new Zero to check against,
or a shipping device to test it on. I suspect that the D-/D+ lines of the PWR
port are not even connected to the SOC.

The linked cable is probably not appropriate anyway since it is USB 3.0. The
3.0 "B" plug is not compatible with a 2.0 "B" receptacle.

Edit: As far as I can tell from this information about the SOC
[http://elinux.org/RPi_BCM2835_Pinout](http://elinux.org/RPi_BCM2835_Pinout)
there is only one pair of USB D-/D+ lines. I don't see another IC that could
act as an onboard hub, so I think it's hardware limited to supporting a single
USB port.

~~~
icebraining
Oh, I'm not talking about reusing the Pi power port to connect the Wifi, I'm
saying that you could connect the Wifi to the single data USB port, but use a
Y cable to connect the VCC/GND lines of the Wifi adapter directly to the
charger.

EDIT: Like this (the right one is the Y-cable):

    
    
      +--------------+       +------+
      |              |       | WIFI |
      |   Rasp Pi    |       +--+---+
      |              |          ^
      +--+------+----+          |
         ^      |               |
         |      |               |
         |      | D-/D+         |
         |      +-------------->+
         |                      ^
         |              VCC/GND |
         +                      +
      Charger                Charger

------
lambda
The thing they seem to be missing here is that the CHIP isn't a sub-$10
computer. They did a sub-$10 Kickstarter as a marketing effort, but their BOM
on this chip is over $10, so it's apparent that they were doing the
Kickstarter at a loss just for publicity.

[https://olimex.wordpress.com/2015/06/05/how-to-get-in-the-
ne...](https://olimex.wordpress.com/2015/06/05/how-to-get-in-the-news-tell-
people-that-you-will-make-and-sell-something-which-cost-you-20-for-9/)

The C.H.I.P. manufacturers disagree, and say that it really will be $9 when
shipping, but given that it's still vaporware at the moment, it doesn't really
make sense to compare to something that has already shipped tens (hundreds?)
of thousands of units.

~~~
Gys
Vaporware !?!?

I have two of them sitting next to me on my desk...

~~~
gruez
He meant $9 CHIP at scale, after the kickstarter orders have been shipped is
vaporware

~~~
Gys
The CHIP (which really exists) can be ordered for $8 at the moment:
[http://getchip.com/](http://getchip.com/)

I understand the company and its product are not as well known as Raspberry
Pi. But calling it vaporware while they actually have shipped what they
promised and seem to continue doing that is unfair. Sure, they have less of a
history and track record but so far there is absolutely no reason for any
doubt.

Even the mere fact that Rasberry Pi (which he obviously trusts) can make a
'pc' for $5 makes it feasible for another company to make something for $9...

~~~
detrino
You can not order anything on that page. Besides, there is absolutely reason
for doubt when the BoM is estimated to be more than $9.

~~~
tracker1
They'll make it up on "Shipping and Handling"

~~~
ant6n
Yeah, this page gives no indication about how much that will be. And no
product info either, no list of specs. They have an almost hidden link to
their kickstar, which greetz you with a wall of text, and the only 'specs'
shown are of their attachable screen+keyboard.

------
tracker1
I've tried several similar systems, as well as a couple of Cubox's and I'll
include the Ouya here. All of which had some promise, but really failed to
deliver.

In the end, today, my htpc is an i3-5010U brix that I've been pretty happy
with. It does cost a lot more. I'm hoping the x86 compute sticks will become
more available at the sub-100.

I do hope that things improve, but in my own experience, I have not enjoyed
these little arm boards which have left me feeling far more locked in than the
more proprietary and expensive x86 stuff has.

Though gpio seems cool, I haven't had as much need for it so much as a desire
for a cheap general platform to run stuff with video out from.

------
agumonkey
Who else thinks the built-in wireless capabilities are really making a
difference here ?

~~~
analog31
Lack of built-in networking is a deal breaker for me. At my house, we've been
playing around with RPi for quite some time now. We haven't come up with any
profound applications, but we're learning things like the Linux command line,
Python, and some basic hardware hacking. Two things about networking:

1\. We often go out to "sudo apt-get install" etc., to drink from the fountain
of free modules that are out there. Just getting anything running seems to
require network access.

2\. For anything that might benefit from keyboard, mouse, and display, it
turns out that the cheapest and easiest source of these things is just an old
PC and PuTTY or Remote Desktop.

Excited as I am by the new boards, the original Pi does what I need right now.
Most of my projects are conceptual: By the time I've convinced myself that it
_could_ run on tiny iron, I'm satisfied and ready to move on to the next
project.

Who would ever have thought that we'd be debating about the relative merits of
_two_ $10 computers?

~~~
agumonkey
Good point. Even for free I'd nitpick ... maybe a wifi kit would be enough.

~~~
analog31
Yes, that would be satisfactory. My only qualm is that I've experienced drop-
outs with wi-fi on the RPi.

Now I wonder if it's possible to bit-bang some sort of low performance
Ethernet using the GPIO's.

~~~
Tiksi
I have a mesh network of atmel 328p using nrf24l chips. The connection isn't
super fast but the chips are cheap (~$1 ea. at 10 on a board ready to go), and
I doubt there's anything I could/would do with a 328p that would max the data
rate. They'd probably work pretty well for a low speed link on the pis.

Only caveat I've found is that they're _extremely_ picky about getting clean
power on the +3.3V rail.

------
X-Istence
Hey, at least the Pi Zero is secure. It takes the I out of IoT :P

~~~
slxh
and you can always add networking whenever you need it

------
ddingus
For those of you expressing thoughts on the actual, "got it working now" cost
being significantly higher than $5, you are right, but that's not the point.

Hobby people will pick up 5 of these things and burn though them like
components, building this and that with stuff they largely have laying around.
I'm in this camp, and I really could plug the $5 unit in and do something
meaningful with it.

Besides, $5 isn't much. Anyone exerting any effort at all to package it, kit
it, etc... is going to need some margin for that to all make sense. $50 kits
are perfectly reasonable. It's plug 'n play that way. If you want to do your
own plugging and playing, that's $5, straight up.

Nothing of concern.

Which one is better?

To me, it's all about the ecosystem. That puts the Pi on top by a mile. Tons
of support, software, etc... plus there is a high chance of friends being into
it, or finding the same, if learning is the goal. No brainer.

Personally, I think this is awesome!

Long ago, I got into a discussion about hand calculators and school. I was
young, but I was mouthy and said, "these things will be in the Freddy's Five
Dollar Bin right as you walk in the door soon." A few years later, there they
were. $4.99, in that bin, right by the door.

These things will end up somewhere like that too. Not quite the same as the
calculator, but they are basically disposable compute units for cheap. Get a
10 pack, and use 'em. Get another 10 pack, and use those.

For people in developing places, that low cost matters. For people in poverty
overall, it matters.

It's all great to see.

------
mkoryak
I bought a "banana pi" which had specs that made it look like a rpi2 killer,
but cheaper.

You get what you pay for. 2/3 usb ports never worked. The support was pretty
much non-existent.

If the CHIP is anything like that, I don't care if it has 16 gigs of ram. The
hardware doesn't matter if you cant figure out how to use any of it.

------
robbles
I've tried a lot of different development boards, and my experience has been
that the OS, drivers, and available software resources make more of a
difference for the kind of projects most people use these for. RPi and their
community did a great job of making it straightforward to setup and connect
things, even when some extra hardware was necessary. I had the opposite
experience with multiple versions of the Beagle board, where there were
numerous software driver issues and endless half baked guides on using the
hardware. I hope that the CHIP boards follow their example, otherwise I'd be
very wary of touted benefits like pre-soldered headers and a newer ARM chip
instead of "our mission requires it to be easy to use".

------
lsllc
Picked up an RPi0 yesterday at MicroCenter in Cambridge MA for $5+tax. The
power supply was $7.99+tax, $6.99+tax for an 8GB µSD card and I'll have to buy
a 40-pin header for it and solder that on, not to mention time to find a ARMv6
distro and burn it ... and still no connectivity (Linux Wifi? Yuck!) ... so
yeah, TCO rules!

Not sure the C.H.I.P. will be much better (I am a Kickstarter backer) so I
will probably stick with the BBB @ $55/ea or RPi2 @ $40/ea (both not including
PSU); at least they both run Ubuntu Snappy and have ethernet built in.

------
mwcampbell
Does anyone know if the CHIP has analog audio output through a 3.5mm jack? If
not, can anyone recommend a cheap ($50 or below) single-board computer that
has WiFi and analog audio output?

~~~
xena
I have a board in front of me. It in fact does.

~~~
mwcampbell
Have you played audio on it? How's the quality and reliability? For example,
does it have background noise or limited volume like the Pi model B/B+ (which
actually uses pulse width modulation rather than 16-bit PCM)?

~~~
SwellJoe
I'm also curious on this front. My interest in the C.H.I.P. or one of those
interests would be to have a tiny computer for music experiments. The Pocket
add-on would make this a very nice little chiptune machine, if it has some
sort of audio output that can be worked with. Running existing Linux
compatible trackers, or building a small custom thing, would be reasonably
easy if it has 16 bit PCM that is reasonably clean. Even one channel would be
sufficient for this purpose, though stereo is fun, too.

~~~
tracker1
Just curious, is innexpensive a requirement, and would one of the nuc/brix
setups work for you?

~~~
SwellJoe
Nah, I like the PocketCHIP thingy which has a screen and keyboard. I currently
mostly use a Gameboy (the original style in a grey box, running LSDJ) for
portable music fun. But, a more realistically programmable toy with the same
basic form factor (pocket sized computer with a hardware keyboard) running
Linux would be ideal. I could use a programming environment I'm familiar with,
and work directly on the device itself (no need for cross-compiling and such).
I don't really think of my Gameboy as programmable, despite knowing vaguely
how to put together system to build for it and how to run an emulator for
testing. I just don't want to program within those limitations, even though I
appreciate the art that goes into doing so (and think very highly of the
author of LSDJ).

The very small PC form factor (like a NUC or brix) requires a monitor and a
keyboard. A tablet with a keyboard more closely fits the bill, but also isn't
ideal. I have a tablet, but can't really develop directly on the device, as
far as I know. I want a self-contained pocket sized toy for tinkering with,
without need for an external build system. CHIP with the Pocket add-on fits
that bill perfectly, at a great price.

~~~
w-ll
This is why I loved the original Motorola Droid series, and wish we could get
another modern Android phone with the slide-out, Sidekick style keyboard.

~~~
SwellJoe
I had a Sidekick II, I which I liked a lot for the time. And, I miss my G1 for
the same reason. I had two of them; the original G1 and the original Google
Devel phone. Loved them both, but sold the G1 when I got the dev phone for
free, and gave away the dev phone when I got a Nexus One. Have missed having a
keyboard ever since. I've finally found that a 8"\+ tablet has a large enough
soft keyboard for me to be able to type at a reasonable speed without
ridiculous numbers of typos.

If the platform itself were more hackable, I'd just go grab an old Droid or
similar. I don't really need modern for this particular task (though building
Android apps has only recently gotten nice on a level comparable to building
for Linux). But, running an unmodified Linux is non-trivial, and running an
old Android version is also challenging. But, maybe I shouldn't worry so much
about it, and just pick up and old Android phone that's known to be root-able
and can run CM, disable the radio, and build the stuff I want to play with for
Android. Unfortunately, there aren't any competent existing music trackers
written in Java that I'm aware of.

------
baxter001
I'm not really wowed by any element of the Pi0, the drastic component count
and associated feature reduction make both the small size and cost
unimpressive.

I hate to play this old tune: bit I can't imagine an application that doesn't
push the cost up past the £15.50 of the A+ just to reach feature parity.

~~~
rasz_pl
[https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/kenburns/tiny-
arcade-a-...](https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/kenburns/tiny-arcade-a-
retro-tiny-playable-game-cabinet)

perfect for micro cabinet running quake

