
For $450, a Japanese Company Will Quit Your Job for You - lnguyen
https://www.npr.org/2018/08/28/642597968/for-450-this-japanese-company-will-quit-your-job-for-you
======
rlander
It has to go both ways, though. At my last job, when I first talked to the CTO
(my boss) about leaving, he asked me to think about it and talk again the next
day. The next day he postponed the meeting. Then, at the day of the meeting,
he was out of the office. It had been 5 days since the first talk so I chose
to escalate the matter and, in an Arrested-Development-episode kind of
situation, I learned that the CEO and the CTO decided to mysteriously leave
for vacation because they felt burnout.

~~~
john_moscow
I'm curious what would have happened, had you also taken a sick vacation then.

BTW, generally, people are less likely to pull off shit like that if you
motivate your resignation with some health/moving/whatever external factors.
Just shift the focus way from "I don't want to work with you assholes" to "my
wife got reassigned to %STATENAME%, so I guess I have to follow" or whatever
sounds plausible and you're good to go.

~~~
ghostbrainalpha
My best quit excuse was that I had Crohn's disease. It let me step away
immediately, because I didn't want to poop myself in the office.

I also offered to work from home for my final two weeks, to help them train my
replacement, but it had to be from home, because of the pooping issue.

What's really nice is that I had a ton of options. I could even apply to have
my job back, if I couldn't find remote work, in a few months if I had success
with the treatment and felt more comfortable in an office environment.

------
tinco
Resigning seems hard, but it's a little bit like giving regular feedback in my
opinion. First of all it's best done face to face, because you don't want to
be misunderstood, and you want to give the other party a fair chance at
replying.

Second, you give the compliment sandwich. You start out with thanking them for
the opportunity (any job is an opportunity, no matter how shitty it was, you
made money and you learned something, sadder but wiser you may be). Then you
tell them you would wish to quit your job after the contractual resignation
period. Don't neglect mentioning that! If you just say you want to resign,
they might just accept your immediate resignation and you'll miss out on the
period you might have planned on. The final compliment has to make sure you'll
be able to work together through the final period, just assure them you'll
keep up your efforts and help transfer your knowledge to colleagues.

I'll do it for you for $450 if your employers speak English or Dutch ;)

~~~
sofon
I think like most "weird Japan" articles this one is being mischaracterised
somewhat.

It is often somewhat difficult in Japan to get your legal entitlement when
leaving a so called "black" company. They might not easily pay out your
remaining holiday, or they might use "power harassment" to otherwise make your
exit process difficult.

So I can see that a company like this, while not providing legal services,
removes the possibility of applying harassment to coerce employees to stay a
bit longer or not take their full legal entitlement.

~~~
nmstoker
Surely they're even less likely to uphold their legal duties if you signal
that you haven't got the courage to turn up in person.

~~~
sofon
Don't know, but I would guess that in most cases they want to coerce people
into giving up their rights. I.e. "sign this to agree you give up your right
to X". That might be remaining holiday pay or something else.

Actually... thinking back I've literally had an ex-boss in Japan try to get me
to sign releases to various things. In the end I paid a lawyer to tell the guy
to stop harassing me. This service would have been cheaper...

------
tokyodude
I'm sure this is similar in other cultures but Japan still has a strong
attitude that you're lucky to have a job. Contrast that to us (myself
included) spoiled Silicon Valley type engineer who gets job offers often and
companies trying to entice us with free food, game rooms, etc...

From that, people who have a job in Japan often feel obligated as in "You gave
my a job and made it possible to live my life. You invested N years in
training me. I'm now responsible for various parts of your business. If I
leave it will feel like not paying you back for all you've given me. It will
also put you out for weeks to months.".

Japanese have an acute sense of obligation as well. There's a reason why you
say "Don't worry this is really nothing" when you give a gift in Japan as
you're trying to avoid adding to the receiver's obligation to reciprocate.

Of course as a westerner that attitude used to bug the crap out of me. I knew
a person who wanted to quit, their boss said "no, you can't quit", and they
stayed on for several more months. At some point in my life my attitude would
have probably been something along the lines of "If it's that important I
stick around what's it worth to you?"

The longer I'm in Japan the more I'm mellowing on some of my western and
spoiled engineer attitudes. Of course not totally but I feel like the it's "me
vs them" attitude I see so much on HN leads to worse outcomes than the "we're
all in this together" attitude or the "it takes a village" attitude I see more
of in Japan. I think both extremes are bad but if my meter was pointing at the
100% me side before it's now around the 75% me side, 25% us side, now.

~~~
lx3459683
> I knew a person who wanted to quit, their boss said "no, you can't quit",
> and they stayed on for several more months

[...]

> I feel like the it's "me vs them" attitude I see so much on HN leads to
> worse outcomes

I think your anecdote there proves otherwise. That person was asked to act
against their own interest and did it out of feebleness. They didn't gain
anything in return, it was not a equitable exchange where e.g the boss paid
out an additional bonus for the employee continuing to stay against their
wish.

In a capitalist society, it is always workers vs employers. Do not mistake
Japan's social cohesion for some kind of workplace utopia. It is one of the
worst countries on earth in terms of work life balance - which is currently
destroying their entire society as childbirth rates plummet. This is not
hyperbole. By 2030 years ~85% of the population will be elderly people.

~~~
mijamo
Is 25 yo elderly for you?

Because by 2030 there will certainly NOT be 85% of the population as elderly
(well except if some new sickness kills all the people below 65 obviously).

There might be 35% though, which is already quite high but not unmanageable.

~~~
lx3459683
My bad, it was meant to be 2080 but I can't edit the post anymore.

Either way, japan's population is not only ageing but declining at an
exponential rate due to low childbirth - which has been directly attributed to
the piss poor work life balance. The Japan as we know it today will not exist
in a few decades. It will either be a far less populous country, or full of
immigrants.

So I don't think we can take their 'not us vs them' attitude in the workplace
as any kind of precursor for a successful or happy society.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aging_of_Japan#Effects](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aging_of_Japan#Effects)

~~~
emodendroket
They're already letting in far more foreign workers.

------
topmonk
This sort of thing seems really sad to me,

From the site linked in the article, "Proper Etiquette for Quitting Your Job
in Japan":

 _Show your appreciation to every member of the company, or at least those you
have been working with directly. Sweets, small gifts such as mugs, tea sets, a
thank-you card or other similar items will be appreciated by everyone. Prepare
those for your last day on the job. Usually, Japanese companies will see you
off by hosting a small party and presenting you with a flower bouquet, so
having something to give in return always makes a good impression. You may
also be asked to give a speech, so prepare a few farewell words just in
case—but keep it short and sweet._

Skipping these niceties in order to save embarrassment makes the world a
little colder.

~~~
ptero
When those niceties are not a free choice, but "strongly encouraged" by
management, they quickly stop being nice.

For a person who spent a lifetime at the firm (which used to be pretty common
in Japan) and is retiring from work altogether, they may be a warm touch. For
someone who hates the job and wants to leave, maybe not so much. Not burning
bridges is always a good idea, but I can understand avoiding long, scripted
performances in this case.

~~~
Nadya
_> When those niceties are not a free choice, but "strongly encouraged" by
management, they quickly stop being nice._

It isn't about being nice though - it's about giving the appearance of nice.
If everyone is being nice and courteous to one another for the sake of group
harmony, then I think it is good. I can understand why many people would be
irritated by it, but then this kind of culture isn't for them.

I visit Japan often and I'm aware of just how much of the culture is a
"bullshit front". That's not surprising when an important concept is around
being two-faced[0]. If this type of culture bothers you - it's a terrible
country to live in. But the constant "faking for group harmony" leads to
_actual group harmony_ as far as I can tell. It's enjoyable being in a culture
where people try to support one another than one that's an individualistic -
"everyone fend for themselves" \- culture like the U.S.A.

[0]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honne_and_tatemae](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honne_and_tatemae)

~~~
antoniuschan99
That's the love hate relationship with Japan.

When I visited there the first time I thought wow everyone is so friendly and
the customer service is great!

But the more I visited and spoke with my friends who live there, realize that
a lot of it is just to put up a face because that is what society there
requires them to do.

On a personal level it is quite sad in a way, but I also wish the customer
service would be like that everywhere else in the world.

~~~
twblalock
I dont see why it’s sad. They figured out that being nice to people, even when
they don’t feel like being nice, makes society run better.

~~~
Nadya
It's sad on an individual level - and I'm sure it contributes to Japan's high
suicide rate and people who choose to withdraw from society [0]. Many cultures
have a similar concept of "putting your personal feelings aside" but to
varying degrees. In the US you put on a "professional persona" and may set
your personal feelings aside while at work. But if you're at a job where your
personal and professional personas are at ends with one another - you're going
to be very unhappy.

If your personal and public personas are at ends with one another, in a
society where you're almost always required to put on your "public persona",
you're going to be unhappy all the time. You can choose to withdraw from
society so you no longer need to fake a public persona - but even that is very
difficult and can make people unhappy (using the old "we're meant to be social
animals" excuse).

I think the culture works for people who's personal and public personas are
mostly in agreement with one another and people who have made peace with
setting their own selves aside for "the greater good" (if "societal harmony"
is an acceptable "greater good", which I personally feel it is).

All in my own opinion of course. I don't have data on hand to support any of
my claims. :)

[0]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hikikomori](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hikikomori)

~~~
hfdgiutdryg
Regarding suicide, I blame relatively poor mental healthcare, rigid societal
expectations of people's lives (family & career track), and a (supposed)
history of suicide as a solution.

Or maybe in the West, with cultural roots in Christianity, which strongly
discourages suicide, we might just be benefiting from more social taboo around
it.

~~~
Nadya
Oh, I'm not saying it's the "only" reason - but a contributing factor.
Constant high expectations, the poor work/life balance, and that losing your
job after you're 30 basically means you're now considered unemployable doesn't
help either.

------
toomanybeersies
I don't know why, but I found it really hard to resign at my old job. I
actively disliked it and I didn't owe them anything. But still I found it
really hard to resign and tell my colleagues that I was resigning, I didn't
even care about them.

Most of the team only learned that I was leaving on my last week (I had given
3 weeks notice). I just felt really awkward telling them for some unknown
reason. Funnily enough, I worked in a coworking space, and most other people
in the space knew I was leaving before my coworkers. My coworkers only found
out because they put my leaving party on the "this week" board in the kitchen.

~~~
chrisco255
It's hard to quit anything you've invested time and energy into, especially
when it involves relationships with other people. Only way to get better at
it, though, is to do it, however hard it is. I awkwardly (and abruptly) quit
my first job (for another one) and later ran into my old manager. She brought
up how awkward it was, and I replied that I should have done it better. The
thing is, I think it was mostly out of shyness, or worry about disappointing
someone. But I think that you learn by doing. You get better at framing it
correctly, or dealing with objections, and you can quit in a way that brings
closure to both parties. People from my past often pop back into it from time
to time. It's important to try to leave on good terms whenever possible.

~~~
therockspush
So you should quit more often and you'll get better at it. Thats my kind of
advice.

Quitting a job is like leaving a party. You probably didn't like everyone
there. You probably avoided some people. That's where the Irish Goodbye
shines. You get to leave without having to decide who to say goodbye to, and
avoid long winded and shallow well wishes. As long as you aren't burning
bridges, it actually benefits both sides in a lot of ways to just ghost on
coworkers.

~~~
chrisco255
No, ghosting a job is a terrible idea. If two parties invested any amount of
time into a relationship, be an adult and own up to your responsibility to end
it in a way that gives closure and respects the other person. A job is not a
party, a job is a big commitment with a lot of value exchanged both ways.

It also benefits you, more than you know.

~~~
lovich
Funny how the companies don't extend that courtesy to employees. When they're
done with you, you're walked out the door. Sure, you should tell them you've
quit and not ghost them, but why go to any extra lengths like a two weeks
notice when they wouldnt do the same for you?

~~~
gowld
Which companies don't extend that courtesy? Any company I've worked at gives
1-3months notice for low performers. They call it a "Performance Improvement
Plan" or somesuch, and basically pay you while you search for another job. For
layoffs, there's a severance payment equivalent to several weeks. No salaried
job at a going concern would skip severance, because severance is on condition
of promising not to sue the company for anything.

~~~
cableshaft
Whenever I (or anyone else I've seen) have been laid off, and I've been laid
off from several jobs, I would have about fifteen minutes to pack my things
and say my goodbyes, and be ushered out the door right away.

People that resign may or may not be allowed to stay for the two weeks,
depending on how much the company was relying on them (often the companies
didn't really have much redundancy or documentation in place and needed to
train someone new and/or do a few meetings with infodumps with these people)

But that's the only 'courtesy' I've ever seen.

------
sosense
I've never had any issue resigning, but perhaps this could be a new hire perk.
"We offer free snacks, 401k matching, and previous employer termination
service."

~~~
h4b4n3r0
>> previous employer termination service

I would pay pretty good money to terminate one of my previous employers.

~~~
hnzix
I'm sure there's something available on the darknet.

~~~
h4b4n3r0
I'd strongly prefer a non-violent solution.

~~~
brian-armstrong
I'm sure there's something available on the darknet.

~~~
auslander
LOL :))))

------
anonytrary
I'm conflicted -- mainly because this doesn't seem sustainable, but maybe it
works in Japanese culture. Not only are you not quitting in-person, but you're
not doing it _yourself_. If you think quitting over text is bad, how would
they feel if you asked your old buddy from college to quit over text _for_
you? On the other hand, I could see this being the norm in some dystopia where
nobody talks to each other anymore or employees are just fluid hands.

------
auslander
In my culture, quitting is a rewarding experience, feels good to say fuck you
and your corporate toxic waste disaster, I had enough :)

~~~
throwaway6789
In my country (India), quitting is a nightmare, especially in the IT
consultancies. We have to serve a 3 months notice period. HRs and managers
will threaten you (had multiple personal experiences). Then if you somehow
quit, you are still at the mercy of previous manager and HR for service
(experience) letter, which is needed for future jobs.

If you are on H1B, quitting can be even more challenging. Some companies that
sponsor your visa from India wants you to serve a 3-12 months notice period.
You cannot quit from US, you have to come back to India and quit. Otherwise,
you have to pay several lakhs of rupees to the company. Its not just Indian
companies, some US companies who are top in what they do in the world also do
this.

I have been wanting to quit my current job working for the US division of an
Indian IT company for a while now, but the thought of having the talk with my
manager makes me anxious. Same manager threatened me last time with service
letter, and he got what he wanted.

~~~
0xcafecafe
On what legal grounds are they asking you to pay them money? Did you sign a
bond or something similar on joining? I have heard anecdata of that not being
enforceable.

~~~
throwaway6789
Company HR will ask you to sign a bond once you get selected in the visa
lottery. We have to sign this bond if we want them to go ahead with our H1B
process. This is different from the bond they have for freshers (which usually
lasts for 2 years at the start of your career).

Once we sign this bond, we have to accept whatever salary they offer for our
onsite assignment (deputation to US). People won't even know their US salary
until 1 or 2 days before travel. Then come to US and work for them for the
bond period doing whatever they tell us to do. If we were to quit during this
time for another job in US, HR can treat us as "absconding" and refuse to give
the service letter unless we either pay the bond amount or come back to India
and serve whatever notice period is on the bond.

~~~
joncrane
> HR can treat us as "absconding" and refuse to give the service letter unless
> we either pay the bond amount or come back to India

I would imagine a signing bonus would be handy to pay off the bond. In IT it's
fairly common to get signing bonuses.

~~~
s73v3r_
Is it? I've never gotten one.

------
sleepychu
Wow, hard to believe this is turning a profit. I definitely don't enjoy
resigning but unlike other 'difficult' employment conversations I usually have
a hard deadline to meet the start date of the next job and these things are
never as bad as you expect.

Did once have to give it to my boss's boss though because it was an unexpected
snow day and we were 2/3 of the people in the office!

------
around_here
I really love all the Japan articles lately because they're all the "Japan is
weird" thing, but take everything totally out of context.

Customs, much like words, lose their meaning when taken out of the cultural
context.

------
quickthrower2
$450? All you need to do is extend your middle finger.

~~~
auslander
Japan is different. Most jobs there are for life and employer is percepted
like a grandfather. Heck, they sing company hymns starting their work day.

------
vinceguidry
It's my opinion that how you manage career transitions, forgive me for using
an unnecessarily gender-specific idiom, separates the men from the boys when
it comes to professionalism.

The ideal is that you use things like exit interviews as a canvas on which to
have a broader discussion about both career and business priorities that will
leave them _very_ interested in bringing you back on in an expanded capacity
once you've grown in your career more.

This requires the ability to clearly understand and distill why you couldn't
get what you needed out of your current job. Nobody's really expecting you to
be unhappy, but at the same time, there's a kind of expectation that you raise
issues and work them out before they reach the point where you go find another
job.

Naturally, something like compensation isn't part of this expectation, if
another company is offering you $30k more, you won't be expected to have asked
for that before handing in your notice, because obviously you weren't going to
get it. But if compensation is the primary reason you're leaving, then
rationally speaking, you should be open to accepting a counter-offer. If
you're not open to that, then you need to clarify more reasons why you're
leaving.

My understanding is that it's best to tie what you want and why you couldn't
get it to the business model of the company. That offers the least-offensive
pathway through an exit interview that results in no legal issues and the
utmost in professional candor. They can't change the business model, so
another job is a perfectly appropriate pathway to getting what you want. This
naturally requires you to understand the company's biz model and this is best
accomplished by having discussions with your manager.

If you want career advancement, doing it through your current job requires you
to wait for an opportunity to open up. I would have happily stayed at my last
job if I could have led a team, but that wasn't in the cards. But it was an
option that we explored.

If you have a personal problem with someone working there, then the expected
resolution is to restructure the teams so you don't have any interaction with
them. This one is a bit tricky, I wouldn't bring it up in an exit interview,
but behind closed doors long before you start looking. This way you can simply
hint at it in the interview and everyone knows what you mean without having to
actually discuss it, while the surface discussion is about business
priorities. A personal problem affects team cohesiveness though, and if
management isn't willing to resolve them, then that points to a political
problem with the organization.

Anyway, I hope this offers some frameworks and tools to help with career
management.

------
ekianjo
I have quit jobs several times in Japan and while quitting was not difficult
in itself, I did not like one bit the fact that resignations are almost kept
secret to most employees. Like some of my more distant colleagues noticed
weeks after I left that I was not in the office anymore and found out by
asking around that I resigned. Always amazes me.

~~~
magduf
I saw this several times in my first post-college engineering job in America;
it's not unique to Japan. I didn't notice the guy in the cubicle had left the
company for about a week, and there were other people who "mysteriously"
vanished. It's a company culture thing: this (small) company just didn't
bother telling anyone what was going on with other employees.

At the big companies I've worked at, this would be unheard of: they always had
nice going-away parties etc. They even had going-away parties when people
transferred to another department.

------
saudioger
If you're unaware of other cultures this will make no sense to you, but
quitting in many places is very very hard.

~~~
auslander
I am unaware of other cultures, but you could take some effort to describe it
to me.

------
tjpnz
Why's it so hard? Tell your boss, request a withholding slip and proof of
residence tax. Done.

------
Asooka
Text-only link sans ads and tracking:
[https://text.npr.org/s.php?sId=642597968](https://text.npr.org/s.php?sId=642597968)

~~~
MaxikCZ
I wish every web would offer this. Its so nice to read when you dont have to
deal with everything around it

------
paulie_a
Why in the world would you want someone else to do that for you? You are
leaving for a reason and in my experience it was incredibly liberating to put
notice in.

------
axilmar
How many bullshit does Japan have, I wonder? for as much as I admire them for
their achievements I lament them for these strange things.

My favorite method of quiting is the following: I enter the manager's office,
I say, "I quit" (signing any documents required), then I leave and they never
see me again.

