
Coup attempt underway in Turkey - Animats
http://www.theatlantic.com/news/archive/2016/07/turkey-government/491579/?single_page=true
======
CSDude
Reporting from Ankara, capital. Ongoing sonic booms followed by bombings.
Scary as hell. My niece is 8mo, in each jet and helicopter pass we take cover
on her and we baricated home with tables. No one knows what is going on, and
media claims control is in place.

~~~
em3rgent0rdr
it is 5:12 AM right now in Turkey. Have you been up all night or did you just
wake up?

~~~
gkya
We're all up here in Turkey, I haven't seen any houses with no lights. Kinda
hard to sleep when there's a coup going on in your country...

~~~
gkya
Somehow I'm not able to edit, but I wanted to add: the situation seems be
under control, coupists mostly arrested, soon it'll all be cool I guess (based
in Istanbul).

------
Animats
Current status as reported by government of Turkey:

\- Coup attempt claimed to be unsuccessful.

\- About 1500 members of military arrested so far. Two senior generals will be
tried for treason.

\- About 90 dead reported so far.

\- Heavy damage at parliament building and presidential palace.

\- Airports supposedly reopening soon. (Airport departure list shows "Delayed"
for everything except one flight to Odessa.) [1]

\- If Erdoğan hadn't been able to make a speech via FaceTime, which was
relayed by a TV station, the coup might have succeeded. He also sent a text to
his entire contacts list. The amusing thing is that Erdoğan is against social
media.

[1] [http://www.ataturkairport.com/en-
EN/flightinfo/Pages/Departu...](http://www.ataturkairport.com/en-
EN/flightinfo/Pages/Departure.aspx)

~~~
chvid
I found it very strange the coup makers did not attempt to round Erdogan up at
his holiday home in Marmaris (or wherever he was).

~~~
chillydawg
They BOMBED the place, just after he left.

~~~
therein
They bombed the presidential palace, not his "holiday home" in Marmaris, which
is where he was.

------
fatihdonmez
It's same like Reichstag fire. Now Erdogan is more powerful to change
constitution with presidential system.

ps: I'm turkish

~~~
geverett
Completely agree.

For context: wince the foundation of the Turkish Republic in 1923, there have
been periodic military coups, notably in 1960, 1980, and 1997. The army's
stated purpose has always been to 'preserve the constitution and democracy',
as it is this time. While I'm not in favor of the use of violent force to
unseat a democratically elected government, the current government in Turkey
is anything but. Recep Tayyip Erdogan, the Prime Minister from 2003 to 2014
and President since, has taken many pages out of the Putin playbook, turning
the liberal, cosmopolitan Turkey (my former home) into an oppressive, corrupt
dictatorship. He has jailed opponents, waged war on minorities, funneled money
and arms to extremist groups in Iraq and Syria, built himself a palace worthy
of a Sultan, changed the constitution, and vowed to keep himself in power
until at least 2023 if not longer.

His party, the AKP, lost its majority in the democratic elections of June
2015, which were largely seen as a referendum on Erdogan's constitutional
changes, designed to create an 'executive presidency' that would consolidate
Erdogan's power (the Presidency had largely been a ceremonial role, as it is
in most parliamentary democracies). The natural outcome of such an election
should have been a coalition government and no executive presidency - but
Erdogan refused to let his party compromise with any other, and instead called
snap elections for November. He spent the ensuing months destabilizing the
country by attacking the Kurdish minority in the southeast and stirring up
trouble in Syria, provoking retaliatory attacks in Ankara and Istanbul. The
elections in November delivered the AKP their majority again, in results that
were widely considered suspicious if not outright rigged. In May of this year,
Prime Minister Ahmet Davutoglu refused to rubber stamp Erdogan's increasingly
dictatorial demands and was forced to resign. His replacement is an Erdogan
lackey.

It's too soon to tell who is behind the coup, and how likely it is to succeed.
If it doesn't, I fear for the country as it will be mean further curtailment
of freedoms, more violence, and economic destabilization. Like with the
Reichstag fire, I doubt there will be enough proof to show it's a false flag
operation for Erdogan to consolidate power, but I certainly wouldn't put it
past him.

~~~
tim333
Shame really. I guess we now have president for life Erdogan for two or three
decades.

~~~
tim333
Some more from Zero Hedge - The Counter-Coup Begins: Erdogan Purges 2,745
Judges, Prosecutors; Arrests Hundreds

[http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-07-16/erdogans-counter-
co...](http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-07-16/erdogans-counter-coup-begins-
turkey-purges-2745-judges-prosecutors-arrests-hundreds)

Also some arguing it was a false flag operation
[https://www.reddit.com/r/Turkey/comments/4t2pso/this_coup_re...](https://www.reddit.com/r/Turkey/comments/4t2pso/this_coup_reeks_false_flag/)

Dunno but something seems a bit off to me. How did they have a list of 2,745
judges to purge and 140 appeals court members to arrest the next morning?
You'd think it'd take some time to figure that stuff if they hadn't been
planning it.

------
scarmig
Anyone have a take on how successful this is likely to be?

Both sides are claiming victory and that they've beaten the other side,
naturally. Propaganda is everywhere.

The only thing I figure is that since Erdogan is calling for a mass uprising
in the streets, the status quo has him losing. He needs to radically change
the dynamics of the situation to stay in power, and mass protests and displays
of martyrdom in the streets of Istanbul is the way to do it. Otherwise, if
everything were under his control, he'd be encouraging people to stay inside
while his forces stabilized the situation.

Is that a fair read of the situation?

~~~
Animats
No. Erdogan called for people to take to the streets, and within an hour, the
airport and bridge were filled with thousands of people waving flags. (From
pictures, all male.) That's popular support. The military is not attacking the
crowds. The military presence was apparently not that big, concentrating on a
few key spots.

A coup has to succeed within the first few hours. Control must be established
before opposition mobilizes. If the coup drags on, it fails. Failure is either
a loss or a civil war.

Suggested reading: "Coup d'État: A Practical Handbook"[1]

[1]
[https://www.amazon.com/dp/0674737261](https://www.amazon.com/dp/0674737261)

~~~
tobias3
What should they have done (additionally)?

E.g. take out/over all civil communication infrastructure, such as ISPs,
cellular networks, phone landlines? Then enforce the curfew with actual deadly
force (since they are not a police force with riot gear...)?

~~~
majani
Here is a chart that describes the practical steps:
[https://embed.gyazo.com/4324b66e1a3045ad63349061a76f4756.png](https://embed.gyazo.com/4324b66e1a3045ad63349061a76f4756.png)

According to that illustration, the coup plotters missed the crucial step of
breaching the president's residence and capturing him. They completely
mistimed the coup when the president was on vacation outside the country. Now
he has been able to rally support against the coup and his supporters are on
the streets protesting against the army

~~~
tobias3
He was reportedly on holiday in Turkey in Marmaris, so maybe they did not know
where he was or did not have the man power to capture him.

I wonder how it would have played out if they had captured him. I can even
imagine that more people would have protested.

~~~
einrealist
Its funny how Putin and Erdogan were meeting a couple of days ago. Maybe
Erdogan was warned and took "a vacation"?

~~~
adventured
It was widely noted in the media that France closed its Turkish embassy (on
"security fears") two days prior to this. It certainly makes you wonder if the
word didn't get out.

~~~
ChristianBundy
It's important to remember that those "security fears" were in reference to
Bastille Day.

------
elcapitan
Weird. This coup of July 16 failed in exactly the same way as the coup against
Hitler of July 20 failed - a small group of military sub-leadership, a failed
bomb attack against the leader, a half-hearted attempt to secure the capital,
all breaking down with the leader re-connecting with the non-cooperating rest
of government and military. And now most likely horrible revenge against all
involved.

I always thought people from the military would at least consider the historic
scenarios.

~~~
internaut
One possibility is that this was not a real coup but a power grab where an
army faction was unwittingly manipulated by the government.

~~~
geverett
This is a really well put analysis from a friend of a friend, Alp Eren Topal,
a researcher at one of Turkey's most prestigious universities:

'For the last couple of weeks there were rumors to the effect that a large
group of ranked officers in Turkish Armed Forces would be forced to retire by
the end of summer. My guess is that last night's move was an organized attempt
by this group of officers. The quite obvious lack of organization and
inefficiency observed in the attempted coup can also be explained without
resorting to conspiracy theories or theatricality of a staged ploy: The junta
prepares for, or at least entertains the idea of a coup but somehow the news
of the attempt is leaked and rumor gets around. Government learns about this.
The disappearance of Erdoğan for the last week and the excitement of several
foreign embassies in the last few days can also be attributed to these rumors.
It is also quite possible that the government, with the comfort of being
forewarned and realizing the limits of the junta, may have planned to turn
this into an advantage and instrumentalize a potential coup for its own
benefit. They may have also planned to catch all the junta in the act thus
making it a more open and shut case.

Obviously the junta would know that its cover had been blown and in return
they may have acted prematurely as a last resort, to save their asses and made
the last night's gamble. I think, this is the most logical explanation of why
the coup seemed like a farce.

As to the the aftermath, I think Erdoğan is most right when he frames this as
a providence from God. This coup attempt could not have come at a better time.
The u-turn in foreign policy, the admittance of failure in Syria, the great
purge within the party, the issue of Syrian refugees all had brought the party
esprit-de-corps to an all time low and alienated Erdoğan to his base. And as
such, it provided Erdoğan a decisive victory in domestic politics. Now he is a
victorious leader once again, a veteran. The people flooding the streets were
also united in their leader's defense and this turned into an opportunity to
overcome the alienation. Erdoğan will once again acquire the status of
rightly-guided leader who is led and provided by by God. And of course there
is no doubt that he will use this credit to utmost limits.

Kind of like the Auspicious Affair (Vaka-yı Hayriye) of 1826 whereby the
Janissary corps were abolished once and for-all, this failed coup has a facet
of auspiciousness. Yet, imagining the aftermath we can also predict that it
will have several facets which will prove quite oppressive and burdensome for
Turkish citizens.'

~~~
iamjeff
>Kind of like the Auspicious Affair (Vaka-yı Hayriye) of 1826 whereby the
Janissary corps were abolished once

I abhor taking a contrarian position just for its own sake, but in this case,
I simply must. I disagree that the Auspicious Affair was the death kneel of
the Janissaries. The downfall of this corp class was self-inflicted: what
started out as an effective military (and in some cases para-military)
institution degenerated into a mafia of sorts where the Janissaries would
"shake down" every new administration for an extra buck. Furthermore, the fact
that the corp ventured into commerce and other non-military activities
disengaged this warrior class from combat duties: these guys just sat around,
scheming on how to get their way, and "wet their beaks" in every possible way
imaginable (brothels, unsanctioned annexation of Serbia, et al). It is
unimaginable that the Janissary corps could have been so 'easily' disbanded in
1826 if they had not lost their legitimacy, battle readiness, and integrity
(integrity in this case is only in relation to my earlier point about their
corruption). Their downfall was their own undoing.

>there were rumors

It is unimaginable that Turkish intelligence services knew nothing about this.
While organizing a university students' strike is difficult, picture the
logistical effort expended on a military coup, to say nothing of the heated
arguments and active wooing that undoubtedly went on in various places in and
outside Turkey itself. Military coups do not develop organic leadership; there
needs to be a solid command and control structure deliberately and forcefully
communicated to coup participants. Rules of engagement must be determined to
avoid unnecessary confrontation and thresholds must also be established so
that the leadership knows when goals have been accomplished and when the game
is up. A case must be made to the rank and file and these soldiers allowed to
make a conscious decision, the risk of dissenting soldiers informing the
authorities notwithstanding. A battalion of men and the equipment and support
necessary for them to function must be made available for independent and
effective operations: weapons, armor, transportation, fuel, air support,
flight control, encrypted communication gear, carriers/tanks, etc. This stuff
takes more than a day or two to make ready and neither does it stroll out of
barracks all on its own. Furthermore, elaborate plans must be made to severe
connection: analogue, digital, and Internet broadcasts. Your guys need to have
the complete attention of the entire country. Interventions must, therefore,
be made at the ISP/broadcaster level. It is feasible that the political
administration of this Erdoğan fellow allowed the situation to escalate as it
so violently did.

>This coup attempt could not have come at a better time.

Perhaps this is why the political administration needed this to go through
(somewhat). However, we must all be cognizant of the fact that there is a
parallel society that operates within Turkey (forgetting for a moment that
there is a strong secular movement, particularly in the west) led largely by
Gülen. This section of society will not melt away. I think that the coup came
at the worst of times for the incumbent. The fact that it was unsuccessful
means that Erdoğan, in appeasing his supporters and demonstrating resolve,
must 'act tough.' However, as in almost all other coup cases in the country
and thanks to Turkey's long and storied history with its military, compromises
will have to be made. There will be a purge (I speculate), but not one that
catastrophically degrades the ability of this new Janissary corps to stage an
outright or 'palace' coup in the future. Secondly, the secular movement will
be emboldened by the revelation that a section of the Armed Forces (perhaps
the movement's strongest and most consistent ally) is fed up with the
Islamization of the society at the expense of the society. The Gülen camp, on
the other hand, will be emboldened by the fact that Erdoğan is not the tsar
that he makes himself out to be (not that they did not know that, but now they
have real, demonstrable, and irrefutable proof: Look, coup! Weak!) and will
propose that the camp's exiled leader is the panacea to the unification
struggle that is sure to follow. Domestic politics is not cast in stone and
whatever the incumbent does over the course of the next months will not
discount the divisive tragedy of modern-day Turkey. Turkey has just begun
(again) the search for its soul. This time, however, there is little chance
that the king will have his way at the expense of all other interests- there
will be no decisive victory or vindication. This country is just too big to
contain anymore. From yours truly, Arm-chair general

------
smarinov
Dear Turkish friends,

This is arguably not the best place and time for what I am about to say, but I
am going to do it anyway.

Please know that if things continue the way they are, you are all welcome to
Bulgaria. There is some scare mongering by local right-wing parties on the
verge of the political spectrum, but we have about half a million ethnic Turks
and over 98% of the population are positive towards them since they have been
the most unproblematic and hard-working minority that is loyal to the Republic
for our last century of independence. We are not paradise on Earth either, but
at the very least you should be able to integrate well into our society and
have a relatively hassle-free life in no time.

Of course, I don't wish you to be forced to leave your homeland and no normal
person is interested in having an unstable and/or unreliable Turkey, but
unfortunately things haven't been exactly improving with your current
leadership… :(

Be safe!

------
einrealist
It is bad that a (mostly) democratic elected government is (tried to be)
removed this way. This will make it really difficult to work with whoever is
in power, internationally.

But Erdogan forced this on the military. They were told to stand down against
ISIS and to fight a new impossible-to-win fight against the kurdish minority.

I really hope the situation will somehow calm down. Otherwise we could have a
new civil war at our hands, forcing more people to cross (those stupid)
national borders to find safety.

~~~
gkya
The elections however were a great mess. On the first election on 7th june 15
AKP was 40%, but opposition failed to form coalition and Erdogan abused power
as head of state to fill up 45 days w/o a new govt so that elections would be
repeated. So happened, elections were to be repeated on 10th november the same
year, and in the meantime the war on PKK started, major attacks by ISIS
happened, and people feared unstability and voted for AKP. The two of the
parties that could have formed a coalition are MHP, the turkish extremist-
nationalists, and HDP, kurdish socialist-nationalists, so not all that
compatible. Also, the legality of those last elections are doubted. Since the
beginnings of this decade, we're an extremely polarised society, with more
than two poles, and any issue is extremely complex. This last madness will
augment all these problems, and if it fails, it won't be like in the past the
same. "A stick with two shitty ends," we say.

~~~
einrealist
I agree. The election was a shit show. In addition, Erdogan's apparatus
attacked liberal institutions and people with investigations and law suits.
But Erdogan would not be able to do so, if he had not have the support of a
majority. So in a way, its a somewhat weird, imperfect democratic process.

My hope is with the young turkish people, to influence the situation in a good
way. Maybe this will trigger a much stronger democratic process. Anyhow,
Erdogan should step down.

------
patrickmn
Reddit live thread:
[https://www.reddit.com/live/x9gf3donjlkq](https://www.reddit.com/live/x9gf3donjlkq)

------
runesoerensen
Check out the Facebook Live Map, video streams from all over Turkey:
[https://www.facebook.com/live](https://www.facebook.com/live)

~~~
tuna-piano
Wow, amazing. Any idea if all these demonstrations are pro / anti the coup?

~~~
tim333
mostly anti coup

------
insulanian
Two days ago: _France closes missions in Turkey over security fears_ [1]

[1] [http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2016/07/france-closes-
missions...](http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2016/07/france-closes-missions-
turkey-security-fears-160713131750838.html)

------
Animats
The crowds appear to have ejected the military from the TRT TV station, which
is now back on the air. The studio is full of people.[1] So full that they
can't get a clear shot of the presenter.

This is history happening. Some general is being interviewed live in the
middle of the crowd that's invaded the TV studio. It's all in Turkish, but a
translation should be available later.

[1]
[http://www.trt.net.tr/Anasayfa/canli.aspx?y=tv&k=trt1](http://www.trt.net.tr/Anasayfa/canli.aspx?y=tv&k=trt1)

~~~
jonah
The revolution _will_ be televised.

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qGaoXAwl9kw](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qGaoXAwl9kw)

~~~
mtgx
Sure, when you have an army backing you up.

Do you think a revolution would be televised in Russia or China without the
army's support?

Even in the U.S., it would probably be covered as "terrorists trying to take
over the White House" or whatever.

~~~
jonah
And is it actually revolution if those with power are simply exercising their
power? Can the powerless even stage a successful revolution?

~~~
mtgx
I'm not sure. Many so called revolutions actually had outside help (usually
from the U.S.).

------
Animats
Update:

\- The Turkish military said in a statement that it had "taken control"

\- Gunshots were heard in the capital Ankara as military jets and helicopters
were seen flying overheard

\- Footage from Turkey shows tanks and soldiers in the streets

\- Hostages have reportedly been taken at the country's military HQ

\- Istanbul's Bosphorus Bridge and Fatih Sultan Mehmet Bridge were both closed

[1] [http://www.itv.com/news/story/2016-07-15/live-updates-
milita...](http://www.itv.com/news/story/2016-07-15/live-updates-military-
coup-taking-place-in-turkey/)

------
mustaflex
Let me give you guys some more inside details:

From the start it was clear that something was weird: they weren't enough
soldiers to make a real coup, only a few hundred soldiers a few helicopters,
tanks, etc... And it seems that they knew it and did it despite that. By the
way they even bombed the house where the President was supposed to be...

The coup attempt was made by members of a religious group named "Nurcu" leaded
by Fetullah Güllen, who is in exile in the U.S.A. ...

It was known that members of this group had infiltrated every possible area of
the government (possible, legal branch, army,etc...)

Yes this group was the biggest ally of Erdogan during more than 10 years and
it is mainly because of Erdogan that these people infiltrated so well every
aspect of the government. They together imprisoned falsely reporters,
policemen and soldiers claiming they were attempting to make a coup. They even
imprisoned the former Chief of Staff. And those idiots in the AKP government
and people who supported Erdogan were cheering them because they were getting
rid of "secular" forces in the army. Now irony is these same people are doing
exactly what they were supposedly trying to prevent: Make a Coup.

The Turkish army was always saying that the biggest danger for the country was
religious backwardness(irtica) and unfortunately it has proven right again.

Although they were shots fired to civilians and to cops, the civilian crowds
didn't hurt the few soldiers on the streets they grab them and handed them to
the police. The situation is getting better, the Chief of Staff was saved (he
was hostage by these people) the commanding officers are calling these
soldiers back to their base to be arrested. Most of them are coming back. They
even shot a helicopter("rebel") with an F-16.

I think the situation will settle in maximum 24H.

Unfortunately I think this will give Erdogan more power and leverage on the
long run and drive the country deeper in insanity. Turkey is on its way to
become the "Pakistan" to Syria/Irak, the Afghanistan of the middle-east.

For the better or the worse the only thing keeping Turkey from being another
middle-eastern country was(unfortunately) the army.

~~~
usrusr
So this has already been a coup of the post-kemalist turkish army formed by
Erdogan and his (former) allies? I was hoping that claims of the coupists
being Gülen followers were just attempts to put a kemalist attempt into a bad
light ("islamic terrorsist"), but then maybe I and, I guess, many other casual
outside observers have been underestimating the amount of change that has
already happened since the last time the army has acted as a weird but
reliable consitutional safeguard.

~~~
mustaflex
Yes, and the unfortunate thing is that it is Erdogan and his government that
made this possible but the people will likely not remember how these people
where best buddies and how their undermined every possible institution in
Turkey in order to suppress the seculars in the army. But they never thought
while they were throwing hundreds of officers into prison, Gulen's movement
were pushing their people into the right places. In Summary these "genius" in
the government never saw what was really happening, it took them 12 years(!)
to understand what's going on, and now they have to figure out how to weed out
all these sleeping cells.

It is true that the situation is much more complicated then what it seems, and
the irony is that Erdogan will likely seek the help of his old enemies, the
seculars in the army to clean this mess up.

------
calibraxis
For about a year, some openly suspected Erdogan frustrated the US enough for
them to foment a coup. The US gov't loudly signaled its displeasure: _" Early
on, Obama saw Recep Tayyip Erdoğan, the president of Turkey, as the sort of
moderate Muslim leader who would bridge the divide between East and West—but
Obama now considers him a failure and an authoritarian, one who refuses to use
his enormous army to bring stability to Syria."_
([http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2016/04/the-
obam...](http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2016/04/the-obama-
doctrine/471525/))

(I haven't yet seen any evidence regarding the US's role is in this coup, if
any. I just mention this as a prominent example of how much he frustrates even
his allies, so it's natural for many to go to the trouble of replacing him,
despite all the risks.)

~~~
bcoates
While I'm sure the US isn't losing sleep over Edrogan going away there's no
reason for the US to have any role in this besides the standard assurances to
the coup plotters that the US won't move against them.

Recently, even that hasn't been necessary, which has really damaged the
"puppet strings" theory that was so popular a decade or more ago.

------
countrybama24
[https://fr24.com/THY8456/a5a3952](https://fr24.com/THY8456/a5a3952)

That looks like Erdogan's jet. Was in a holding pattern for the last hour. Now
heading to Istanbul. Seems like the coup has failed?

~~~
dmix
How could a coup fail so quickly?

~~~
personjerry
How would a coup succeed slowly?

------
anon1234321
Amateur hour. They didn't capture or eliminate Erdogan in the first place.
Then they failed to cut off internet and television within the country, so
Erdogan was able to rally his supporters to the streets, and the soldiers were
obviously (and rightfully) not willing to mow down mobs of civilians.

If you ever hoped to see Erdogan removed from power, this is the worst
possible outcome. He will now use this as a pretext to solidify his
strangehold on civil society, carry out a purge of disloyal elements of the
army, and do whatever else he must to solidify his place as dictator for life.

------
seanccox
Current coup summary:

250 people dead (according to The Guardian), 1440+ injured.

According to Turkey's Chief of Staff, the coup was against President Erdogan's
government, launched by troops from the Turkish Air Force and Gendarmerie.

Erdogan asserts the coup is over, but some reports suggest the calm in Ankara
indicates the coup succeeded there, and that there is presently a stalemate
between government and anti-government forces.

The Turkish government just ordered the dismissal of 2745 judges from their
seats. According to Reuters, there were 7604 judges in Turkey total, so ~36%
were removed from duty.

------
Animats
Live TV coverage on Sky seems to be the most current.[1]

[1]
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y60wDzZt8yg](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y60wDzZt8yg)

------
tuna-piano
Does anyone have an explanation, or a link to an explanation for all the
happenings in Turkey? I'm an occasional follower of this kind of stuff, but it
would be great to understand the full situation in Turkey in an easily
digestible way.

1\. The current coup

2\. The president's history

3\. The different terrorist groups operating within the country and their
beliefs and goals

4\. Turkey's legal system and freedoms allowed

5\. Information on past coups

6\. The general beliefs and sentiments among Turkish people

Edit: And a simple question that I'm sure is a complex answer: is this
attempted coup bad or good for a peaceful free turkish people?

~~~
zygomega
The army is secular. Every 20 years they remove some dictator or zealot that
the system seems to throw up regularly. I'm not sure if there's been a split
in the armed forces before, but the police always cop a hammering.

~~~
rimantas
More like ten: 1960, 1970, 1981, 1993, 1997, 2007 — threat of the coup. I hope
I got years right.

------
chinathrow
Guardin live ticker:

[https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2016/jul/15/turkey-
co...](https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2016/jul/15/turkey-coup-attempt-
military-gunfire-ankara?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Tweet)

------
bArray
News flash: Those in power and relying on laws, rules and democracy think it's
a good idea it remains.

Well it's completely obvious they would have this stance. I don't think
they've really anything to add. Hopefully things stabilise one way or another
over there, innocent people getting shot helps nobody.

What's interesting though is whether this instability will affect Turkey's
chances for a seat in the EU. I would really like to see a Muslim Country in
the EU but at this rate their chances seem to be lessening.

~~~
back_beyond
Why would you like to see a Muslim country in the EU? Even without Turkey, we
are trending in this direction.

~~~
bArray
Good question. Currently it's an echo chamber of similar minded Countries. I
think in order for the EU to grow, it needs to entertain other trains of
thought.

~~~
back_beyond
The EU is comprised of over 500 million people from a variety of backgrounds,
many of which are indeed Muslim. Hardly an echo chamber. I fail to see what
additional growth could be fostered through adding a Muslim majority country.
Would you care to elaborate?

~~~
bArray
@gkya has done a good job of elaborating part of the reason being the
Westernisation of Islam.

The EU is a highly Christian dominated place with a "them vs us" mentality.
The EU tries to fix the world's problems without ever engaging the world's
cultures. It's not about growth, it's about the future of civilisation. It's
at a time where we need to be taking down barriers, not putting more up. We
may not financially benefit from having Turkey, but it's certainly a step
towards empowering the secular Muslims and moving forwards together.

~~~
danielscrubs
Highly christian? I don't know a single christian and I've lived here for 30
years. We have the least religious countries _in the world_! Otherwise it
sounds good but I hope you are not all talk and are yourself giving money to
other religious entities.

~~~
bArray
Christianity is 72% in the EU according to Wikipedia [1], it's really high.
Even if the figures are wrong or have changes, I'm willing to bet it's above
60% regardless. Makes me wonder about where you live?

What do you mean by "I hope you are not all talk and are yourself giving money
to other religious entities."? I don't agree with religion in general, but I
think the way forwards is to embrace it and it's cultures in order to move
forwards.

[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_the_European_Union](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_the_European_Union)

------
Animats
"Unclear to me what's happening in Turkey, but Facebook, Twitter & Youtube
have all just become inaccessible there."

pic.twitter.com/LIzGAi2HuH

— Julia Carmel (@JuliaCarmel__) July 15, 2016

------
Animats
Prime minister makes threats against coup plotters. Coup plotters claim
they've taken over.[1]

[1] [http://www.itv.com/news/story/2016-07-15/section-of-
military...](http://www.itv.com/news/story/2016-07-15/section-of-military-
attempting-coup-in-turkey/)

------
pingec
Live reddit feed
[https://www.reddit.com/live/x9gf3donjlkq](https://www.reddit.com/live/x9gf3donjlkq)

Sky News live stream
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y60wDzZt8yg](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y60wDzZt8yg)

------
Animats
New York Times reports.[1]

[1] [http://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/16/world/europe/military-
atte...](http://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/16/world/europe/military-attempts-
coup-in-turkey-prime-minister-says.html)

------
chadcmulligan
live coverage on al jazeera
[http://www.aljazeera.com/watch_now/](http://www.aljazeera.com/watch_now/)

------
xordon
A video of low flying jets:
[http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/07/15/turkey-low-
flying...](http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/07/15/turkey-low-flying-jets-
and-gunfire-heard-in-ankara1/)

------
steve19
The coup is over.

[https://twitter.com/AJENews/status/754108743412047872?ref_sr...](https://twitter.com/AJENews/status/754108743412047872?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw)

The US announced support for the government where before they were hedging
their bets.

~~~
drauh
No, it's not over. That was likely propaganda.

This update from The Guardian at 2016-07-16 03:15 UTC (i.e. 2 hours after your
comment here):

However, Reuters reports that bomb attacks on the parliament are continuing,
with a senior Turkish official saying rebel soldiers have been warned they
will be shot down if they attempt to use more military aircraft.[0]

[0] [https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2016/jul/15/turkey-
co...](https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2016/jul/15/turkey-coup-attempt-
military-gunfire-
ankara?page=with:block-5789a650e4b073c22786c8bc#block-5789a650e4b073c22786c8bc)

~~~
steve19
Over in the sense that the outcome is now a fait accompli, even if some rebels
do not understand this yet in the fog of war.

A few mortar shells being lobbed at parliament doth not a change in government
make.

------
vmorgulis
> EU source says Turkey coup bid looks substantial, 'not just a few colonels'

[http://www.reuters.com/article/us-turkey-security-eu-
idUSKCN...](http://www.reuters.com/article/us-turkey-security-eu-
idUSKCN0ZV2NE)

------
huffmsa
Article about CIA clairvoyance about coups a day before a coup.

[http://theweek.com/articles/635515/cia-team-
clairvoyants](http://theweek.com/articles/635515/cia-team-clairvoyants)

~~~
versteegen
That's funny (but they don't mention Turkey). For some actual predictions,
they link to the blog of one of the people being interviewed:

[https://dartthrowingchimp.wordpress.com/2014/01/25/coup-
fore...](https://dartthrowingchimp.wordpress.com/2014/01/25/coup-forecasts-
for-2014/)

I'm surprised to see Germany predicted at higher risk than the rest of Europe,
and this was before signficant numbers of refugees entered Europe.

------
faebi
I am following this now since 3 hours live from local people through Youtube,
Twitter and Periscope. Amazing what technology can enable. I respect those
Platforms now a lot.

------
Animats
Crowds in central square, bridges, and airport waving Turkish flags. News
services unclear what this means. Some shooting, but military not acting to
crush crowds.

------
woodpanel
Maybe this is the moment in history turkey is becoming coup-proof (a.k.a.
next-level maturity).

(if even opposition groups speak out against the coup and the people are
taking over the streets peacefully - in favor of the government / against the
coup, according to the news I get)

------
mathgenius
I see flights into and out of Istanbul, but nothing near Ankara:

[https://www.flightradar24.com/40.33,31.52/7](https://www.flightradar24.com/40.33,31.52/7)

------
sergiotapia
Just saw a guy get pancaked by a tank trying to pull a tiananmen. You don't
stand in the way of the military mid coup.

------
chmike
How easily could communication systems be neutralized today with internet and
GSM phone networks ?

------
nikolay
Neither a coup, nor Erdogan resemble democracy! Until Erdogan is in power,
Turkey will suffer.

------
andrewclunn
Looks like the Olympic committee made the right call regarding 2020.

------
TruthAndDare
"Hacker news"

------
kyriakos
From the latest news it seems that the coup failed.

------
whack
_" Modern Turkey was founded by Mustafa Kemal, a general in the Turkish Army
who was later formally granted the surname “Ataturk,” or father of the Turks.
Ataturk set about an aggressive program of modernizing and “Westernizing” the
country, pushing religion to the margins, banning certain apparel like
headscarves and fezes, and converting Turkish from Arabic to Latin script. But
that secularism has always remained tenuous. Many Turks, especially rural
ones, are religious, and not all of the reforms have remained popular.

The military has long seen its role as safeguarding Ataturk’s secularist
agenda, and when it worries the government is shifting too far away, it has
tended to take action.

Turkey has thus occupied a strange position in world politics: Although it is
prone to coups d’etat, Western governments have often cheered the coups on,
with varying degrees of enthusiasm, because they are in the service of a
secular agenda. Periodic deposition of democratically leaders has, somewhat
paradoxically, been treated as a small price to pay for ensuring liberalism."_

That's actually a very interesting system of government. A democratic arm that
rules the country day-to-day, and a "benevolent dictatorship" that will
overthrow the democratic arm if it violates the country's "fundamental
principles". Such a model would arguably have served Iraq better than the pure
democracy that was attempted and failed.

~~~
petercooper
_A democratic arm that rules the country day-to-day, and a "benevolent
dictatorship" that will overthrow the democratic arm if it violates the
country's "fundamental principles"_

Exactly (part of) why I'm in support of the monarchy in the UK. If push came
to shove, the armed forces swear their allegiance to the British monarch, not
the government (I'm from an army family and know this is taken seriously).

We have attained an interesting stalemate where a corrupt/crazy monarch would
struggle to assert power, yet a grossly malfunctioning government can still,
in theory, be replaced by one if the people were to allow it.

~~~
feral
>If push came to shove, the armed forces swear their allegiance to the British
monarch,

I really find it difficult to believe its a desirable state of affairs that
the army in a 'democracy' swears allegiance to a hereditary monarch, and that
its good, if as you say, people in the army take that seriously.

What if the interests of the monarch conflicted with the interests of the
people? In some sense that meant 'push was coming to shove'?

The monarch is just another citizen - another random human - who just happened
to be born into a particular family, who some time in the past probably did
some game-of-thrones nasty things to come out on top. No one seriously
believes they have a divine right to rule any more, so why should their
interests be privileged over the interests of the population at large?

Whatever about an elected head of state with symbolic power, the people can at
least remove, really, the hereditary monarch argument just seems like an
argument from the 18th century.

I'm from the Republic of Ireland, which is culturally very similar to the UK,
but wow, what a difference in perspective on this issue!

~~~
vacri
> _The monarch is just another citizen - another random human - who just
> happened to be born into a particular family_

Nope. The monarch is someone who has been heavily trained in diplomacy and
politics, and has a great network of political connections and the ability to
speak with effect to powerbrokers. Whether or not the monarch is morally good
is a different argument, but they are mostly definitely not interchangeable
with any other citizen picked at random. The same is true of politicians in
general - you need political skill, a support network, and basic knowledge of
how the system works. Sadly, you don't need _administrative_ skill...

It's weird also that you're from Ireland, and haven't picked up on the general
UK arrangement between the government and the royals: "You don't tell us what
to do, and we don't tell you to sod off". Liz has been famously apolitical in
particular. You're right that no-one believes that she has a divine right to
rule... and she doesn't actually rule. She doesn't declare law, or negotiate
trade treaties.

Disclaimer: I'm an Australian who wouldn't mind getting rid of the Queen, but
who also knows that zero would change politically from that - the 'governor
general' here would simply be renamed the 'president', and power would still
remain with the prime minister + cohort. Liz doesn't even pick the governor
general - it's 'suggested' to her, and she allows it. Like the UK government,
if she started to kick up a fuss, it'd be "well, bye!".

~~~
feral
Sure, yeah, I see that the monarch doesn't exercise much power; from the
outside, the monarchy doesn't look like a practical problem.

Until I read [commenter from military family on HN] talking about sworn
allegiances when "push comes to shove". That's when I go 'woah'.

>The monarch is someone who has been heavily trained in diplomacy and politics

And born into a life of privilege, where even if they do very little, they'll
still reign.

I'd rather take the cohort of random citizens who work their way up through a
[very imperfect] selection process which selects a leader/representative.

~~~
vacri
> _And born into a life of privilege, where even if they do very little, they
> 'll still reign._

Well, the monarch has a _lot_ of duties-of-state. An endless procession of
people to meet and ceremony to conduct. It's not like the UK monarch gets to
laze it up in the sun on yacht in the azure coast week in, week out. And the
nearby royal family do have to engage in some 'good works', or they will lose
their social position to people asking 'wtf!?'. All the name-brand royals are
heavily involved in charities and causes in this modern era, because if they
start ignoring 'social duty', they'll lose their privilege. The days of the
monarch just doing as he or she pleases are long gone, in the UK at least.

While "it's good to be the king", it's also not a lazy life. You also have to
play the part and behave somewhat beyond reproach - the military aren't going
to take their vows to the monarch so seriously if she started dressing and
behaving like Johnnie Rotten.

------
cperciva
Why did people support Hitler? Why do people support Trump? Why do people
support Putin?

Some people aren't very concerned with democratic principles; some people like
the policy agenda and are willing to sacrifice democratic principles in order
to get the policies they want; some people are gullible and believe scapegoat
arguments; some people, particularly in times of insecurity, seek out a
"strong man".

~~~
pdx
I support Trump. I have no problem with Putin. I find your equivalence of
those two men to Hitler to be naive or intentionally inflammatory.

Even given this, I do not, however, intend to quit using tarsnap!

~~~
thaumasiotes
> I find your equivalence of those two men to Hitler to be naive or
> intentionally inflammatory.

>> Why did people support Hitler? Why do people support Trump? Why do people
support Putin?

This structure doesn't imply that the men are equivalent. It implies that the
three questions share one answer. If I tell you that the reason we fine people
for speeding is the same reason that mothers in Jonestown fed poison to their
babies, I hope you won't think I'm equating the _acts_.

~~~
thaumasiotes
I'd really like to understand why this is receiving so many downvotes. What
I've said amounts to pointing out that the same phenomenon can drive different
outcomes, some of which may be very bad, some of which may be of limited
scope, and some of which may be good. Is somebody going to disagree?

------
aerovistae
Mods: Why do you delete news posts like this one? I understand you're trying
to keep Hacker News tech/business/science focused, maybe, but don't you think
major world events that are getting tons of interest should be allowed to
float up to the front page on their own merit? If the users are interested in
it, why is it being deleted?

I feel like major events like yesterday's massacre in Nice or today coup
d'état merit the attention.

~~~
dang
It's almost always users who flag these posts, and they're doing so in
accordance with the HN guidelines. Most political stories are off topic.

Occasionally we override the flags (like we've done here) because a political
story has unusual intellectual interest or historical significance, or because
it's so major that there's no keeping it off HN anyhow.

~~~
aerovistae
I appreciate being able to get responses like this from you so easily. So
different from reddit's long history of the community feeling disconnected
from the admins and unable to reach them.

------
ZainRiz
How do you define liberal? France's idea of "liberalism" is "follow our
culture exactly or face heavy fines/punishment".

They've basically turned their culture into a new religion

~~~
oblio
You mean secularism? It only rejects religion as part of the state or
education. You can do whatever you want in private environments.

For a multi-religious country, it seems to be a decent approach to religious
freedom.

How would you define liberalism and is there a country that has it (or had it
in the past)?

~~~
ErrantX
> You mean secularism? It only rejects religion as part of the state or
> education. You can do whatever you want in private environments

I'm a fan of secularism, and am an Atheist. And I also strongly disapprove of
how some Islamic groups treat women.

However, from here in the UK, France seems strangely, even oddly intolerant.
Muslim religious dress is banned in public.:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_ban_on_face_covering](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_ban_on_face_covering)

Now; I disapprove of forcing women to wear that sort of dress on religious
grounds. In fact, I find it obnoxious (although, aside, Western society seems
to expect women to wear makeup and look "good" at all times... so are we any
better?).

However, I'm not sure banning the dress is a good solution - akin to punishing
the victim...

~~~
mnbcvx
Absolutely, I was talking about this with my wife yesterday.

It's illegal for a women to go topless in France (but not a man), so how is a
women covering her breasts any different than a woman covering her head? I
can't imagine anything less welcoming than being a recent refugee or immgrant,
and then in order to receive an education you are forced to break with a core
tenet of your religious and cultural beliefs, and as a poster below pointed
out, feel naked in your new school.

~~~
yodsanklai
> It's illegal for a women to go topless in France (but not a man)

Is it? there are tons of topless women on French beaches. I don't know about
specific laws but nobody goes topless or naked while walking in a city (in
France or elsewhere). I don't see this as a great restriction on my freedom.
Actually, more worrying IMHO is that if a woman were to go topless in the
street, she'd get more trouble from some (religious and macho) guys than the
police.

> I can't imagine anything less welcoming than being a recent refugee or
> immgrant

Sorry, but I don't find it scandalous to ask refugee or immigrants to make
minor adjustments to their lifestyle. Every society has some common value that
it wants to preserve, and as a French, I want as little intrusion of religion
in public life. In particular, religion has no place in public school in my
opinion, and i really hope it stays this way.

~~~
mnbcvx
I'm actually having trouble finding any exact law, so in the interest of
accuracy, I'll admit I could be wrong about French law here. This Wikipedia
article says

"Chest and private parts must be covered except near bathing zones. Burqa
banned."

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clothing_laws_by_country](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clothing_laws_by_country)

Another article I read mentioned that a particular city recently explicitly
banned male toplessness, which seems to imply that the above statement about
covering the chest only applies to women.

Another Wikipedia article here states that the activist group Topfreedom has
protested in France, also implying that the covering the chest only applies to
women.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Topfreedom#France](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Topfreedom#France)

Can anyone point to the specific law? The Wikipedia article on clothing laws
doesn't have a source. I was going off what I've been told by French friends,
but I'd like to know conclusively.

------
blahi
Turkey had its chance. Ersogan proves that islamhas a much longer road to go
still.

~~~
gkya
I've gone through too much tonight to bother say anything about your
ignorance. But sitting and waiting won't earn anything to anybody. Turkey as a
member would be useful to EU. However if we had a popular vote now on whether
to bother continue the negotiations, it'd certainly come out no, because the
demeaning, hubristic, and unstable approach of the EU in our regards.

~~~
bArray
People hate change and anything that challenges their current perceptions.
Don't take it too personally.

I completely agree with what you've said regardless of whether I want it to be
false. The EU certainly requires some changing as yet.

~~~
gkya
Thanks. I couldn't not respond because that was really arrogant of him and I
do know many think similarly. Ultimately I am an atheist, so not directly
affected by his words, but that stance causes many problems unfortunately.

