
How a 'growth mindset' can lead to success - adrian_mrd
https://www.bbc.com/worklife/article/20200306-the-surprising-truth-about-finding-your-passion-at-work
======
manmal
I’ve met a lot of people (and got to know them intensely) who seem to not
allow themselves to learn new things in specific areas (or maybe a lot of
areas), while being proactive in others. Looking at myself, I had a hard time
learning and maintaining interest about building physical things, or doing
home improvement (all things where I need a hardware shop from).

My theory is that active discouragement during childhood is a driving factor
here. My father often yelled at me if I broke something physical, or asked
„stupid“ questions while building an RC car together. He also wanted to do all
the home improvement stuff alone, and never actively explained anything to me
there. So for me, home improvement equals discouragement, resulting in a
feeling of I-can‘t-do-that. (This kind of thing seems to be passed on - my
father‘s father also shouted at him when doing something wrong).

On the flipside, my father at some point bought a PC and let me play with it,
and seemed to not have any concerns whatsoever about that. He got some floppy
disk games for me, installed the office suite, and let me have at it,
sometimes grunting encouragement.

Now guess what my favorite activity is, and what I built my career around -
home improvement, or computers?

~~~
dhimes
Extending a little charity to your father, maybe he recognized your strengths
and helped you develop those. Maybe, for some reason, handiwork is _not_ your
thing so he was directing you to where you felt more joy.

My father also was both technical and handy, and while I would enjoy an
afternoon working with him on something or other, I didn't naturally drift
toward it. I had a couple of small projects (a weight bench is one I still
remember) and I never got very far with it. It worked ok, but was kinda
shitty. I never put any love into it.

But the Heathkit digital electronics course? I couldn't stay away.

~~~
manmal
Well you cannot expect a 6yo to know how to correctly hold a soldering iron, I
guess :) I don't think his critisicm was warranted at the time.

~~~
yayana
Yeah, I think the most charitable explanation is that as one gains expertise
one is looking for and increasingly helped only by ever more critical and
precise review. One may have trouble seeing the difference in what a beginner
needs and think "better" review is a short cut around "wasted" time.

------
trimble_tromble
It's important to note that mindset theory has recently come under question:
[https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/095679761989758...](https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/0956797619897588?journalCode=pssa)

For a twitter summary of the above paper, see here:
[https://twitter.com/BrookeMacnamara/status/12247169045745459...](https://twitter.com/BrookeMacnamara/status/1224716904574545920)

~~~
PakG1
Reading these tweets, I realize I had no idea that "growth mindset" had very
specific claims. Finding evidence to either invalidate or lessen the validity
of said claims doesn't take away from the main lessons I've had from growth
mindset ideas though. Tweeter seems to be quibbling with details and
semantics, which may or may not be helpful. If "growth mindset" is a specific
theoretical framework with clearly defined points for the sake of marketing
one Carol Dweck and other people cannot use the phrase for what they thought
it meant, fine, whatever.

But the lesson I took from the idea was that people who think that people
cannot grow find themselves in a self-fulfilling prophecy where they don't try
to grow. They potentially can get stuck in their careers and potentially might
get bitter about things if they are not satisfied, wondering why the world is
unfair, while other people who apply themselves can continue to grow. Yes,
many variables and factors also influence how things happen, but the
fundamental idea that people actually do limit themselves for no good reason
is also frequently seen. How many people in the world are like this, I don't
know, but they exist, and we should encourage those people to change the way
they think. I am not sure how anyone would be able to argue against that being
true.

~~~
username90
> people who think that people cannot grow

I don't believe that these exist, which was the point. Everyone knows that
people can learn things and become more skilled, claiming that some people
don't believe this is straw-manning and hence bad science.

It is true that some people give up and stop growing, but I don't believe at
all that it is related to "growth-mindset". More likely they just feel that
the growth isn't worth the effort, they are happy enough where they are.
Claiming that these people lack "growth-mindset" is like claiming that people
who fail to reach their fitness goal lacks "growth-mindset" instead of just
lacking motivation to work hard but still having enough motivation to talk
constantly about it.

~~~
kedean
Counter-example: mathematics. I can't count how many times I've encountered
people who "just aren't good at math". Besides those few with a condition to
justify it, those people aren't good at math because they've been told all
their life that math is hard and they can never be good at it. There's nothing
inherently blocking them from excelling at it.

I also suspect that a lot of people claiming that they just aren't interested
or motivated to learn X are often covering for their own insecurities. I know
I'm personally guilt of it.

~~~
username90
There are some people who say that they can't do math when they never tried
just because it is a meme, but many people did actually try hard and still
failed. After enough tries and failures they gave up and said "I am just not
good at math". There is no point for such people to try harder at math, there
are others for which the subject is a breeze so them trying is just a waste of
time and effort for humanity. Not everyone needs to be good at it, humans can
cooperate and cover for each others weaknesses.

And I am 100% sure that mathematical talent is a thing. I learned all concepts
below college level the instant I saw them, and I completed a masters degree
in math with just going to lessons and not studying at home, there is no way
math is that easy for most people. A person like me will never feel they just
aren't good at math, and people comparing themselves to me will rightfully
acknowledge that they lack the kind of talent I have.

Now the situation is a lot less stark between most people, but I am pretty
sure that the difference in talent is still there.

~~~
kedean
Right, I'm not trying to claim that _everyone_ can be good at math, or should
be. There is some level of talent involved, and of course certain brain
configurations that help or hurt (like discalcula or photographic memory).

However, it's still the case that a huge quantity of people simply give up on
the subject because they don't believe they'll ever be any good at it, without
even giving it a real try. They shut themselves down. Just because that
doesn't apply to absolutely everyone doesn't make it something that's not
important to recognize and combat.

------
BooneJS
One thing I admire about my most successful coworkers is their lack of fear
when diving headfirst into something new. "Hey, we've got this problem, can
you take a look?"

And they say sure.

They will research, then code, then hit a roadblock and pick a new direction,
and repeat. They assume they can get past whatever roadblocks they have, and
they're always correct.

Other people will research until they think they've got a plan to get around
every bit of friction they'll encounter. The longer you take to get started,
the longer achieving a workable solution will take.

~~~
crispinb
_and they 're always correct_

Survivorship bias. For every fearless, boots'n'all person I know in a variety
of fields (not just dev) who's "succeeded", I know many more whose headlong
attempts crashed and burned. Consequences ranged from merely becoming more
cautious, to homelessness and suicide.

~~~
imgabe
What the "survivorship bias" dismissal of things like this always neglects is
that something can be a necessary, but not sufficient condition for success.

Ok, some people who dive in and try things don't succeed. But do any people
who _don 't_ dive in and try things succeed?

Yeah, if you try you might still fail. Most intelligent people realize this is
a possibility. If you don't try you will definitely fail though.

~~~
crispinb
I was responding to _They assume they can get past whatever roadblocks they
have, and they 're always correct._ I believe this _specific assertion_ to be
false, and was not saying anything generic about fearlessness as a route to
'success' (a concept whose coherence I'm in any case deeply sceptical about).

~~~
imgabe
The point still stands. Maybe some people who assume they can get past a
roadblock are wrong. But the people who _don 't_ think they can get past it
definitely won't

~~~
crispinb
I'm not sure what 'stands' means in this context. It may or may not be a
_true_ statement (I don't care because I'm radically uninterested in the
dubious concept of 'success'), but in any case it's not a response to the
comment you're replying to.

~~~
imgabe
You seem to be fixated on some woo-woo, self-help meaning of "success". I just
mean whether you complete the thing you're trying to do or not.

~~~
crispinb
No, I was focusing (or fixating if you prefer the derogatory) on the _specific
claim_ that fearlessness inevitably dissolves roadblocks. That's all. I have
no opinion whatsoever on (nor interest in) general routes to 'success'
(however scanned), as I thought I had made plain. Would repetition help -
should I type it a few times more?

------
msla
I made an attempt to find an actual definition:

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mindset](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mindset)

> According to Carol Dweck,[11] individuals can be placed on a continuum
> according to their implicit views of "where ability comes from".

> Dweck states that there are two categories (growth mindset versus fixed
> mindset) that can group individuals based on their behaviour, specifically
> their reaction to failure. Those with a "fixed mindset" believe that
> abilities are mostly innate and interpret failure as the lack of necessary
> basic abilities, while those with a "growth mindset" believe that they can
> acquire any given ability provided they invest effort or study. In
> particular, an individual's mindset impacts how they face and cope with
> challenges, such as the transition into junior high school from elementary
> school or losing your job.[11] According to Dweck, individuals with a
> "growth" theory are more likely to continue working hard despite setbacks.

I have some poison I'd like to administer: You think this is great, but I find
it sinister. It's a wonderful way to blame failure on the person, for if they
were growers they'd win no matter what they had to work from. Are some people
worse, or simply worse-off? "Use the growth mindset!" the growers can scoff!
"There's nothing you can't achieve in the end!" and if you don't, well, they
can just condescend. It's impossible to win against such philosophy; it allows
them to ignore serious issues, and just fail to see a jammed-up or scammy
underlying system, in which you can't rise and must always get pissed on.

But enough of my cynical snarling. I'm sure my growth mindset will let me be
the first 36-year-old NCAA champion. You know, unless coronavirus destroys it
utterly.

~~~
nefitty
Well, if a person doesn't see any possible path toward some destination, then
they will probably not even try.

If I see a path toward the destination, but it will take me a million years of
walking, then that's not a fault of mindset theory. It doesn't promise that
I'll be able to muster the million mile walk, it just promises that if I look
closely enough, I might be able to make out the path there.

I am somewhat skeptical of mindset theory but intuitively, it makes sense and
tracks with how I expect a human mind to react to difficult projects.

~~~
harimau777
For sake of argument, if it doesn't promise that a growth mindset will allow
you to succeed, then what good is it? How is it different than blind faith?

~~~
maroonblazer
Is the promise that a growth mindset will allow you to succeed? Or, instead,
to improve? Is that what's meant by "succeed"?

~~~
username90
There is no point to improve if improving doesn't ultimately lead to some kind
of success. Then instead you should try to work on improving in other areas
where your hard work is more likely to pay off.

------
johnminter
My take from the article is that one needs sufficient confidence and
persistence to set a goal, a plan to achieve it, and the self-discipline to do
the work to achieve it. Self directed learners have a better possibility to do
this, especially if they have mentors to help them to get over the hard spots.
Of course, one wants to "pay forward" this type of help.

~~~
annoyingnoob
I agree its about self-confidence, also desire to achieve a goal. Confidence
and desire, the rest follows naturally.

------
wwarner
I read Carol Dweck's book [0] on the recommendation of Satya Nadella. I
learned to look at a few of my recent conflicts with others in a new way, and
I would recommend the book as well.

[0]
[https://smile.amazon.com/dp/B000FCKPHG](https://smile.amazon.com/dp/B000FCKPHG)

------
benrawk
Most of the growth mindset literature hasn’t replicated...

~~~
volume
...that sounds like fixed mindset about growth mindset! Or maybe a better
reply is: [https://www.forbes.com/sites/paulmsutter/2018/12/17/stop-
usi...](https://www.forbes.com/sites/paulmsutter/2018/12/17/stop-using-
science-to-validate-your-beliefs/#2f7f18896f27)

------
xiaodai
How flogging the "growth mindset" concept can sell more books and earn the
author more commissions.

------
diablo1
There is a misconception that passion is a singular positive emotion. Remember
that sometimes passion can derail you, make you mad and angry. It involves
more than one emotion. By all means, find your passion, but don't turn it into
an obsession that can derail you.

------
currymj
growth mindset: drinking is just a particular behavior, it's totally within my
control, and all i have to do is learn how to make the choice not to drink
irresponsibly.

fixed mindset: i'm an alcoholic, i'll always be an alcoholic, it's beyond my
power to change that fact, so all I can do is try to let some other power help
me to stop drinking.

the recent meta-analysis offering some limited support for AA got me thinking
about this -- it's an interesting case where for a lot of people, a fixed
mindset is what they need to make a positive change. i think there probably
are many situations like this, where accepting something as a fixed trait
actually helps you deal with it better.

~~~
jotm
Not the best example due to the physical addiction factor, but overall you're
right. Just knowing/believing that things can change/be different is enough of
a push for one to actually try and make the change.

------
known
If we really care about social mobility, it is on the economy that we should
focus most of our attention [http://archive.vn/YJx0E](http://archive.vn/YJx0E)

------
known
"I was an ordinary person who studied hard. There's no miracle people!"
\--Feynman

~~~
tonyedgecombe
Yet he often talked about the huge influence his farther had on him. In
particular in encouraging him to question the world around him.

~~~
vaylian
True. But I think he said this mainly to stop other people from believing that
one is born as a genius.

------
mrpickels
I'm growing cucumbers in my garden, I am successful!

------
timwaagh
I think it's not a great article. I mean 'improving your passion'? Really?
Yeah collecting garbage currently sucks but in ten years time I expect to look
forward to collecting everyday.

------
ASalazarMX
> Or Donald Trump: “Without passion, you don’t have energy. Without energy,
> you have nothing.”

He doesn't strike me as the kind of guy who is passionate about his job.

~~~
dang
Let's not have political flamebait here please. That leads away from
intellectually curious conversation, which is what we want on HN.

[https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html](https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html)

~~~
crispinb
Given that the 45 quote came directly from the article in question, this
strikes me as a tad unreasonable in this case. At the very least, the 45
reference could quite reasonably lead to interrogation of the article author's
superficial concept of 'success' (regardless of one's politics).

~~~
OJFord
I think commenting on a politician's character or personality is 'political
flamebait' whatever quote from the article it's placed under.

~~~
crispinb
Even if it's a response to that politician's own statement specifically
commenting on questions of character? I really can't agree - distinguishing
between 'political flamebait' and 'reflexively tugging the forelock to those
in authority' clearly requires judgement, but the line isn't quite that fine.

------
AtOmXpLuS
Everything in AtOmXpLuS.CoM

