
Road safety tips from Sweden - CraneWorm
https://mobile.nytimes.com/2018/04/09/upshot/car-seats-road-safety-us-sweden.html
======
icc97
90% of the article is about forward/backward facing child seats. But also the
article spells out the the paper it was based on falsely claimed there was a
significant difference between them and was retracted, restudied and agreed to
not be statistically significant. Then it goes on to say, that Sweden does use
rear-facing seats as though that somehow proves that there is a statistical
significance.

Seems like the article could have been cut down to these two paragraphs:

> Because accidents are inevitable, Swedish regulations aim to make them
> nonlethal. Roads rely more on roundabouts, less on intersections. Cars are
> not allowed to turn at all when pedestrians are crossing. There are national
> camera enforcement policies. Sweden also focuses on pedestrian bridges, and
> separates cars from bicycles and oncoming traffic.

> Far fewer people drive under the influence of alcohol; stricter policing has
> reduced impaired driving to less than 0.25 percent of tested drivers vs.
> about 1.5 percent of American drivers. (Sweden also has a more stringent
> definition of driving under the influence, 0.02 percent vs. 0.08 percent.)
> The speed limit in areas where cars might come into contact with pedestrians
> (think all of New York City) is less than 20 m.p.h. Speed bumps and other
> traffic-calming interventions are common. The average cost of obtaining a
> driver’s license is the equivalent of more than $1,800.

~~~
distances
> Because accidents are inevitable, Swedish regulations aim to make them
> nonlethal.

I sometimes wonder how it would be possible to just adopt new laws and
regulations wholesale from countries that have aimed to do a thing well, and
succeeded. I know countries take ideas from each other, but it always seems to
be small things and adapted with local modifications. Laws are obviously not
for "move fast and break things" approach, but feels like we could achieve so
much more.

~~~
berg01
Kind of related:

There's a small Swedish state-owned (soon to be privatized though) consulting
company with about 15 people that exists with the sole purpose of exporting
this know-how to other countries. It's been relatively successful in selected
developing countries. The know-how is typically given away for free, only
actual work (training etc) is charged for.

[http://www.sweroad.se/](http://www.sweroad.se/)

They haven't been hugely successful though. I hear there's often way too much
national pride and similar factors ("our country is unique because irrelevant
factors X, Y and Z") involved.

These people have an odd mix of

a) satisfaction because they are helping people not get... killed or maimed

b) but also an extreme amount of banging your head against the wall kind of
moments

Anyway, if you want to implement road safety quickly in your country, they are
who you should go to.

~~~
kilotaras
Person from (semi)developing country here (Ukraine).

Car is often seen as status symbol due to Soviet baggage. This leads to
disregard of some traffic laws that are about "lesser status" pedestrians,
e.g. speed limits, sidewalks parking, etc. The trend is slowly changing though
with traffic calming measures becoming more common. This leads to a good
number of accidents with drivers who can't ignore laws of physics as easily as
traffic laws[1][2] though.

[1]
[https://www.facebook.com/comfycity.lviv/videos/vb.6665275535...](https://www.facebook.com/comfycity.lviv/videos/vb.666527553506020/924859431006163/?type=2&theater)
(sorry for FB videos)

[2]
[https://www.facebook.com/comfycity.lviv/videos/vb.6665275535...](https://www.facebook.com/comfycity.lviv/videos/vb.666527553506020/925792900912816/?type=2&theater)

~~~
berg01
It should be noted that apart from alcohol aspects, Swedish road safety
thinking systematically treats the human behavior as something that can not be
changed with training, propaganda etc. The only thing that works is to change
the environment to fit the human, and to make the human behave safely.

------
lemming
Our 4 year old daughter uses a Swedish rear-facing car seat, and she seems
fine with it. I'm sure she would prefer a front facing one because she'd be
able to see more, but since she was 3 she's been able to see pretty well. It's
definitely not uncomfortably small for her.

A woman asked a friend of ours "how do you get your kid to eat brown bread?"
and our friend replied "she doesn't know there's any other kind". I think the
same applies here - we've never had a problem with the seat because she almost
never goes in a front-facing one. Even when she has used a friend's seat for
whatever reason, it's never been an issue getting her back into hers. And
she's a pretty argumentative kid.

~~~
foreigner
My kids are a little older, but I've used the same strategy with bicycle
helmets. There's never any argument about using them, because they've simply
never been in a bicycle without a helmet, not seen me ride without one.

~~~
JetSetWilly
It is a bit worrying, there's no real evidence that rear facing seats improve
outcomes for children, and similarly there's no real evidence that bicycle
helmets improve outcomes for people in bicycle accidents.

But somehow, the "safety industry" has leapt on these things and now everybody
has a ludicrously fearful attitude to cycling and you get looked at funny (or
even harassed by strangers) if you dare to let your kid ride about without
body armour on.

~~~
aesclepius
While I don't know about rear-facing seats for outcomes, having cycled
recreationally and for commute for the last 10 years, wearing a helmet has on
multiple occasions saved me (yes I understand anecdata of 1) from mild
lacerations to letting me walk away from a 40 mile downhill crash with road
rash. Cycling without a helmet is a personal decision, but I don't understand
how you can argue that increased head protection does not improve overall
morbidity and mortality.

~~~
bryanlarsen
There are three major factors:

\- Cycling accidents under 20mph are highly unlikely to cause head injuries,
and most cycling is done under 20mph so there's little room for improvement.

\- Helmets are not designed to protect against the kind of injuries received
in an accident with a car.

\- Perhaps most importantly, the phenomenon called risk normalization.
Cyclists wearing helmets take more risks than cyclists who don't, and cars
interacting with cyclists give more space to cyclists who aren't wearing
helmets.

~~~
analog31
>>> Cyclists wearing helmets take more risks than cyclists who don't, and cars
interacting with cyclists give more space to cyclists who aren't wearing
helmets.

Is this supported by evidence (aside from the oft cited but unscientific
University of Bath study)?

------
bjoli
We also don't hand out driver's licenses left and right to anyone with the
ability to find the correct pedals. From what I have seen in the states, you
average bad swedish driver would be an american interstate wunderkind.

~~~
jlarsson89
On the other hand plenty of people that really should have theirs taken away
don't get theirs taken away, like old people with clear mental issues or
people with bad eye sight that affect their ability to see people crossing
roads etc.

~~~
Numberwang
Do you have numbers on these people causing a lot more than the average of
accidents? Taking away driving licenses for old people is a big thing to do,
especially if there is no need for it.

~~~
jlarsson89
I have anecdotal evidence of old people with dementia driving and not having
any idea where they are or what they are doing.
[https://www.thelocal.se/20170809/swedish-experts-call-for-
ne...](https://www.thelocal.se/20170809/swedish-experts-call-for-new-rules-to-
get-unfit-elderly-drivers-off-the-road) claims that they do recall licenses,
but evidently not as thoroughly as they should.

~~~
Numberwang
I'm just thinking that to my mind it is very rare to hear about old people
causing accidents (injuring someone else.)

Alcoholics on the other hand cause a massive amount of accidents.

~~~
riffic
> accidents

Engaging in criminal behavior would be negligence, not accidental.

[http://justicespeakersinstitute.com/traffic-crashes-
theyre-n...](http://justicespeakersinstitute.com/traffic-crashes-theyre-not-
accidents/)

~~~
Numberwang
Interesting article. Negligence sounds like such a mild word though.

------
alkonaut
Pushing a big 3.5yo into a rear facing seat is hard, even in Sweden, and I
doubt it's very common to keep kids rear facing up to 4 here. We do listen to
authorities but it's nearly physically impossible after they reach a certain
length. I believe most start using front facing seats some time between ages 3
and 4 depending on size.

One problem with rear facing seats and large children is that it requires a
LOT of space in the car, if you want to fit more people in it. A rear facing
seat for a 3yo behind the front passenger seat will make the front passenger
space tiny in all but the largest cars.

If you look around europe you'll find that countries that traditionally use
small cars (France, Italy, Britain) probably don't use rear facing seats as
much. What part of this is cause and what is effect I don't know, but you
won't find many families with small children driving compact cars in Sweden
like you do in say the UK or Italy. I saw someone in the UK describe a golf as
a "family hatchback" at one point. That person hadn't been in the front
passenger seat of a Golf with a rear facing child seat behind (The front seat
is then nearly touching the glove compartment).

~~~
rightnow
Father of two twin kids at 3.5 years. Its not hard at all. They climb in
themselves, and if u have a seat with adjustable iso-fix bars you get enough
room for the front seats.

~~~
Steltek
How do larger rear facing seats even fit in smaller European cars? Is your
front passenger seat folded all the way down?

When we were last car shopping, we looked at small SUVs (CRV, Rav4, Forester)
and a rear facing seat mounted "American-style" still intruded on the
passenger seat. I can't imagine how you could shift the seat forwards in a
sedan and make it work.

~~~
mkempe
We bought our car seats from Volvo in Sweden because they are designed
differently than what is available on the US market, in particular and as
mentioned in the article there is a metal bar that rests on the ground to
support the seat. It makes a huge difference in improving the angle of the
seat and saving space for the sake of the front passenger seat (as well as
improving accessibility to install the child, or let her climb in when she
grows older/stronger). You can see that in the sled-test photos included in
the article (US row vs Swedish row); you can also see that the Swedish car
seats provide a much better side-envelope of protection for the children.

------
bartkappenburg
Here's a map that shows how many deaths in traffic are occuring per 1 million
inhabitants in europe: [https://etsc.eu/wp-
content/uploads/map_twitter.png](https://etsc.eu/wp-
content/uploads/map_twitter.png)

~~~
TomK32
In Greece you can buy little metal plugs for your sealtbelt socket so you
don't have to use the seatbelt and don't get the error beeps from the car. I'm
sure it does contribute to the fatality rate.

~~~
sjwright
I don't get why anyone would want that. At no time in the two decades I've
been driving a car, I've never, ever, ever thought to myself _" This seatbelt
is annoying, I wish I didn't have to use it."_

I don't even recall ever thinking that as a child passenger.

~~~
ed_balls
There are 2 reasons \- Health issues - trouble breathing. \- getting stuck in
the car that's on fire, drowning etc. (yes I know you are better of with the
seatbelt)

~~~
TomK32
We have a few decades of statistics that tell use that wearing a seatbelt and
not getting flung out of a car during an accident is much saver than getting
stuck in the car. [http://www.politifact.com/rhode-
island/statements/2011/jul/1...](http://www.politifact.com/rhode-
island/statements/2011/jul/13/joseph-trillo/ri-rep-trillo-says-30000-people-
have-died-because-/)

Seatbelts save lives, it's a fact you can't get around. When they developed
and tried them, they realized how good seatbelts are and decided that every
car should have them, not patent fee for any manufacturer.

Or just don't buy an electric car...

~~~
ed_balls
Not sure why the downvote. I'm just presenting BS arguments that people have
for not using it. I'm fully aware it's a bad idea.

------
TazeTSchnitzel
Another way to reduce road accidents would be to reduce Americans' dependence
on cars. Better for the environment too.

~~~
jakeogh
It's not dependence, it's preference. Americans (and most everyone else) like
to control their 4-vecor.

~~~
abelsson
Having spent quite a bit of time in the US, I've noticed that getting
somewhere there takes about the same amount time as home (which happens to be
Sweden, hence me clicking the link). As an anecdotal example, some common
times for me were about as follows: Going to work, 15 minutes. Grocery store,
5 minutes. Larger shopping mall, 30 minutes. The difference is that in the US
that time is spent driving, while home it's walking/biking. So my control of
my local 4-vector is essentially equivalent, just with a different space
scaling factor applied.

~~~
jakeogh
I can get anywhere in my local city in the time it takes me to jump in my car
and drive there. Comparing that with walking to a bus stop and waiting for it
to get near my destination is not even remotely close, _and I wouldn't want to
even if it was faster_. Talking about speed (while important) ignores the
ability to instantly change your plan.

Your experience might work in a closely spaced situation (hence your odd
comparison of moving at a magnitude difference velocity), where most people
pick the same mall and live close to eachother, but that's not how large
countries work.

~~~
abelsson
Walking/Biking also allows me to instantly change my plans, even more so than
driving does (try turning around instantly in a car). What do you mean "low
large countries work"? The absolute size of a country is irrelevant (what New
Yorker cares what malls there are in Kentucky?), what matters is
population/service density. The US has a 50% larger population density than
Sweden, so it should be able to support at least as dense cities and services.
The difference not economic or technical, but cultural.

~~~
jakeogh
It's cultural and technical. We value our time and large KE control. It's also
nice being wrapped in steel with airbags. You could ride for an hour, and I
could drive for 15min and we have gone the same distance. If we both then
change our minds, I need to backtrack 15 min.

Not to mention, try carrying the things I put in my 5700lb car (without any
planning) on your bike.

I made the math easy, but it's the same arg if it's 45. The only legit arg I
can come up for your point is sometimes I want to run or ride a bike, but in
that case, I'm going to avoid roads even if it's 100% 3 cylinders Geo's, or
just follow my routine and exercise at the gym since it's more fun than
running alone to xyz when I really just need to get something done.

------
jopsen
This article talks a lot about child seats... And only mentions the important
parts speed bumps, separation of traffic and requirements for driving
licenses.

I like speed bumps, bus lock, and round abouts... These features are self-
enforcing and violators are punished with swift justice.

When you run over a speed bump too fast, the good old laws of physics will
meter out an immediate punishment :)

~~~
briandear
How about just enforcing the speed limit? Speed humps on a road designed for
30 often require slowing to 10. Clearly you have never driven or worked in an
ambulance or in emergency services.

~~~
jopsen
Fair point... It's not great for emergency services.

But it's great for residential neighborhoods, and city limits.

------
andrewaylett
We've got our toddler a Hauck seat, and we're very happy with it:
[https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B01HGH89JI](https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B01HGH89JI)

He moved into it from a baby seat, so he's never regularly used a front-facing
seat. He can still see out well enough to see what's going on, and to comment
when we don't go the way he's expecting. He's three at the moment, and we
fully expect to keep him rear-facing until he's four.

Our older children had to move into a front-facing seats earlier because there
wasn't really a choice. But there is now, and I know a couple of other people
who have also gone down this route.

