
Ask HN: Microsoft lied about upgradability of our computer, how mad should we be? - pbhjpbhj
My father&#x27;s Microsoft Windows 8 computer had the Windows 10 upgrade prompt as expected but when followed it said it wasn&#x27;t possible to upgrade because his Nvidia graphics (GeForce 7025&#x2F; NVIDIA nForce 630a) was &quot;unable to run Windows 10&quot; and that Nvidia was responsible for not making it &quot;compatible&quot;.<p>Note they didn&#x27;t say it was just &quot;not supported&quot; but that it was _unable_ to run and was incompatible.<p>An example image of the error is shown here, http:&#x2F;&#x2F;ivanrf.com&#x2F;en&#x2F;nvidia-compatibility-issue-with-windows-10&#x2F; (nvidia-compatibility-windows-10-01-en.jpg).<p>Note Microsoft in their misleading error message give a handy link allowing you to purchase a new computer from them ... how, er, convenient.<p>The only thing is that the computer is completely able to run Windows 10. Running the upgrade using a Microsoft tool that was easily downloaded the computer ran, even without driver upgrade (albeit with reduced graphics) and after a simple graphics driver update (with an Nvidia.com downloaded installer) was fully working.<p>Clearly Microsoft lied in saying that the upgrade was impossible, their tool did it perfectly.<p>What should the response to this sort of fraud be? I wonder how many users like my father assumed they had to get a new computer to get Windows 10?
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Someone1234
Your dad's computer didn't ship with Windows 8. His graphics card is from
2007, and Windows 8 shipped in 2012 (Windows 7 in 2009).

Windows Vista, which was originally on your dad's computer, isn't supported by
the Windows 10 free upgrade promotion, and by extension a lot of hardware from
that period also isn't supported.

So you want to know why your dad's computer isn't compatible? It is too darn
old.

> What should the response to this sort of fraud be?

You should be compensated every penny that the Windows 10 upgrade cost you:
Zero dollars and zero cents.

But snark aside for a second: Microsoft is trying to offer the best user
experience. They would prefer NOT to upgrade a user who will wind up with a
poorly supported system (e.g. an 8 year old graphics card not supported by the
manufacturer on Windows 10).

According to Nvidia's website, they do not offer a Windows 10 driver for that
specific chipset. Windows 7 seems to be the latest driver.

So while I'm sure Windows 10 can fall back to a Windows 7 64 bit driver (just
as I suspect Windows 8 did also) there is no assurance of how well this
graphics driver will work with Windows 8/8.1/10 specific features.

It might work but Nvidia or Microsoft aren't making assurances. I agree with
them, it is "incompatible." It works, but who knows what edge cases may
appear.

Ultimately your tone for a completely free promotion and calling it "fraud" is
utterly pathetic.

~~~
pbhjpbhj
It's practically entirely _compatible_. The card may have been released in
2007 but the system was purchased new in 2012. Win 8 cost £100+ for the
license.

>a poorly supported system //

They didn't say that though; they said "unable to run". Yet clearly MS know
that's not the case (now if not at release). Unsupported and "unable to run"
are entirely different. I'd have no problem if MS said "may not work" or
"unsupported by Microsoft".

>You should be compensated every penny that the Windows 10 upgrade cost you:
Zero dollars and zero cents. //

The cost is time - as an ordinary user the nag telling my father to upgrade
was treated as an essential. Then on that nag screen Microsoft informed him
that his computer couldn't run the upgrade and kindly offered to sell him a
new computer.

If he hadn't asked me the cost would then be disposal of a perfectly good
computer (who wants a 2nd hand computer that "can't run windows") and the
price of replacement from the MS offerings. I imagine quite a lot of people
would have trusted that there computer was "unable to run" Windows, MS would
know after all, and so followed the sales links in the nag screen.

What do you call false statements made to increase sales if not fraud?

~~~
Someone1234
> The card may have been released in 2007 but the system was purchased new in
> 2012.

You purchased a 5 year old Vista machine in 2012?

If it was actually from 2012 you wouldn't have needed to spend "£100+" for
Windows 8, it would have shipped with it. Not to mention that in 2012 Windows
8 upgrade only cost £14.99[0] for the upgrade edition (the promotion ended
January 31st 2013).

> Yet clearly MS know that's not the case (now if not at release).

They don't "clearly [.] know that." They don't go through and test every piece
of hardware one by one. They often just depend on what the manufacturer of
that hardware (namely Nvidia) tells them. In this case Nvidia offered drivers
for XP, Vista, and Windows 7 (32 and 64). They did not offer drivers for 8/8.1
or 10.

So Microsoft looks up the device, the device doesn't have a compatible driver,
so they decide not to upgrade. Last thing Microsoft need is a bunch of threads
about how "Microsoft broke my computer during upgrade!!!" The Windows 7 driver
mostly works, and that is great, but Microsoft has no way of knowing that
without testing every piece of potential hardware one by one.

> What do you call false statements made to increase sales if not fraud?

Microsoft made none.

This is one of those "damned if they do, and damned if they don't" situations.
If they do what you want and are more liberal with upgrades (e.g. upgrade
anything with a working Windows 7 driver) then there is a real chance they
could effectively upgrade people's computer to a version of the OS which the
hardware doesn't support, however if they don't upgrade those computers then
people moan about "fraud" and "lies."

[0] [http://www.techradar.com/us/news/computing/microsoft-
confirm...](http://www.techradar.com/us/news/computing/microsoft-confirms-
windows-8-upgrade-offer-uk-pricing-1084035)

~~~
pbhjpbhj
>You purchased a 5 year old Vista machine in 2012?//

New motherboards with the geforce7025/nforce630a chipset are currently on sale
even now. Not that it's pertinent to whether MS made false statements but my
elderly father purchased the machine and it seems paid for the OS as a line
item, it was not an upgrade but a non-OEM install at the full price advertised
by MS. None of that is pertinent really.

>> [pbhjpbhj] What do you call false statements made to increase sales if not
fraud?

> [Someone1234] Microsoft made none

The upgrade now nag screen said the machine was "unable to run" Windows 10.
That is categorically false.

The presence of the 'but never mind you can buy a new computer from us with
this link' on the nag screen suggests a motive which I'm inclined to agree
with.

If they don't know whether a particular hardware arrangement works or not then
they shouldn't state twice that it doesn't, they should say "your hardware may
not work" or "your hardware is unsupported" or "we don't consider your
hardware to work well enough" or something else that is actually true.

The motive isn't a fact but the lie is.

~~~
Someone1234
> New motherboards with the geforce7025/nforce630a chipset are currently on
> sale even now.

So is a mint condition boxed Apple II+ from 1977 (for $1,400). Why doesn't
Windows 10 run on that?

You can still buy a new motherboard with a 7025 but they're still from five
years ago. They're just old inventory sitting in a warehouse somewhere.

> The upgrade now nag screen said the machine was "unable to run" Windows 10.
> That is categorically false.

It is more true than false. It has a graphics card in it that has no
compatible Windows 10 drivers available. The fact it runs at all is
surprising, and considering these are completely automated messages it is
completely understandable why Microsoft would relay that message.

MOST users with a machine like your father's would be better off not upgrading
to Windows 10, because compatibility cannot be assured. It could break their
computer.

> If they don't know whether a particular hardware arrangement works or not
> then they shouldn't state twice that it doesn't, they should say "your
> hardware may not work" or "your hardware is unsupported" or "we don't
> consider your hardware to work well enough" or something else that is
> actually true.

I will grant that it could be worded more carefully. The upgrade agent
shouldn't allow people to proceed, however, the wording could be constructed
differently.

Overall I don't have a whole lot of sympathy. This is a free upgrade. Nobody
is forcing you to take it, and nobody owes you anything because it wasn't
compatible.

------
DKnoll
Suck it up. Nobody lied to you, you are still entitled to the Win10 upgrade if
you want it, but Nvidia has not made a Win10 driver available for your GPU.

------
smt88
> _What should the response to this sort of fraud be?_

I really wouldn't assume it was fraud. Margins aren't that amazing on
hardware, and it's very possible that Microsoft has more of an interest in
having your father on Win 10 than selling him a new laptop. In fact,
Microsoft's hardware business is supposedly just to make sure that flagship
Windows machines exist, not to make Microsoft the premier vendor or have the
largest market share.

This false negative was probably A) a bug, B) a design flaw in the installer
that told you whether the PC could run Win 10, or C) Microsoft covering their
asses.

In the past, Microsoft caught tons of flak for driver issues when people
upgraded to Windows Vista. They've probably learned their lesson on that one.

