

Ask HN: Boston or Silicon Valley? - bkrausz

So I'm graduating in May and have a couple of great offers from places in both Boston and the Valley.  I've interned in SV twice and love it.  This is both a pro and a con in that I know the place well, but at the same time I'd love to try some place different and diversify a little.  I intend to start a business at some point in the future, and as such imagine I'll eventually move to SV.  Here's my pro-con list:<p><pre><code>  SV Pros:
  - Gorgeous weather
  - Amazing networking opportunities

  Boston Pros:
  - Closer to home (I'm from NY)
  - Cheaper
  - More diverse (less disjoint with reality)
</code></pre>
Before I start a flame war over my last Boston pro: while I love the valley, I sometimes feel like it's disjoint with reality in terms of how people act towards technology.  It's a nerd's haven and often awesome, but mildly unnerving at times and lacks some diversity.<p>Anyway, I'd appreciate some advice as to where to go given equal offers (factoring in cost of living to a reasonable extent).  Additionally I'd like some clarification on a few things to help make a more informed decision:<p>- Is Boston significantly cheaper than SV (I'd probably be in the Mountain View area)?  It's hard to find comparable areas for cost of apartments and such.<p>- What's the startup scene like in Boston?  I hear it's a great place for a software startup, but how does it compare to the Valley in terms of opportunities and networking?<p>- Any advice on which of two hypothetical is better: big fish little pond or little fish big pond?  Alternatively, would you rather be at an important team in a lesser-known company, or a less-important team in a well-known company?<p>- Any other factors I should be taking into account?  I'm looking closely at what I'd be doing, what my potential employers' non-competes look like, and how open the companies are.  One company is a private open-source company, and the other is a company of about the same size owned by a public company.<p>This is a really tough decision, and any advice would be really appreciated.<p>Thanks!
======
tdavis
After living and working in Boston since June, here's my take, in the form of
completely random thoughts:

\- It's generally hot as balls in summer and has already gotten quite cold.
Neither of these particularly bother me, assuming A/Cs and heaters are
available.

\- It's cheap as hell to live here, as long as you live slightly off the
beaten path. We're currently living in Medford, a 15 minute walk from Davis
square and we pay about $1,400 (or was it $1,200?) a month for an apartment
with 3 bedrooms (only two people, but we are gluttons for open space), an
"office" (no idea the technical term of this room), living room, kitchen, etc.
The building is old as shit and it would cost a small fortune to heat
conventionally (hello 1920s oil heating!), but... _it's damn cheap_.

\- The start-up scene is a bit lacking, but there are lots of people here if
you look. I probably can't walk into any random Starbucks and run into an
entrepreneur, but we're here. We even have a poker night!

\- I don't think the pond analogy has any relevance here. With the
proliferation of the Internet and a global economy, I'm not convinced it
matters where you're located for the most part, especially if you're doing a
web start-up. Yes, there are lots more investors in SV, but there are
investors here, too -- ones who _don't_ see 900 pitches a day. The investors
here all talk about how they want to make Boston investing relevant again.

\- And they're proactive about it. They regularly host firm-sponsored events
and invite a bunch of interesting companies. We've been to a small dinner
party and have a cocktail party coming up. We were even taken out Paintballing
by Battery Ventures (Adam Marcus is a great guy, btw) -- that was a profitable
day; we got to keep the Battery-stamped masks they provided and ended up
taking home 3 cases of beer. We met some interesting companies too, but I was
mostly busy shooting VCs.

\- Boston as a city is fun and there is certainly a lot to do on the rare
occasions we go out. I sure as hell miss all my entrepreneur friends who moved
to SF (traitors!), but Dan and I are kept busy enough by the business that I
might notice the lessened night-life/culture more if I had more free time.

All that being said, the Pros you supplied for SV are definitely true. We plan
to move to SF (Mountain View is pretty dull in my experience, but SF is a
great time) when we have more revenue (we did the math; it's a _lot_ cheaper
here), but for now I don't really feel like we're handicapped by our location
and we're definitely better off than we'd be somewhere like the black hole I
come from (Ohio; just threw up in my mouth a little).

I can't speak for your company, but as a business with very low costs and the
advantage of not having to immediately and aggressively seek out investment,
Boston is the perfect place for us right now. The low cost of living allowed
us to become profitable the first month we operated and this type of city
allows us to take part in a very diverse (though comparatively sparse) start-
up community while supplying plenty of entertainment and cheap/convenient
transportation to get to it.

Edit: I should point out that personal preference / taste matters here, too.
You might be able to live for a comparable price in SV/SF if, unlike Dan and
I, you do not become instantly claustrophobic when supplied with less than
twice the amount of space most people seem OK with.

Finally, unless you already have an excessive number of possessions (like a
family), moving isn't that serious of a deal and you might find in either
location that after 6 months you want to try the other.

------
gruseom
I don't have anything new to say about Boston vs. SV, but about this:

 _would you rather be at an important team in a lesser-known company, or a
less-important team in a well-known company_

... that's a no-brainer for me. I'd much rather be on an important team in a
lesser-known company. By "important" I mean strategic to the business. Such
projects tend to be a lot more satisfying, as well as more rational (assuming
a basically functional environment). And the lessons they teach are better
lessons.

I've noticed two things about less important projects in larger companies. One
is that they often get killed before they have a chance to release or gain
traction - and it doesn't much matter how successful they are. This is because
they're starved for executive support. The other is that they tend to end up
in technical ghettos, working on something that seems cool at the time but is
divorced from users and the business, and so doesn't have much value.

------
mattmaroon
I kinda hated Cambridge. It was dirty and expensive, and the weather was
brutal in the summer and I hear even worse in winter. Weather has a much
bigger effect on our moods than most of us realize, and SV ranks up there with
San Diego and Hawaii on that score.

Food was decent though, especially for a college town. I liked Boston proper
much better, but I didn't live there, and as with most cities I'm guessing
your enjoyment will depend a lot on exactly which parts you live and work
in.In fairness, I may have liked Cambridge better if I lived in Harvard
square. I may have gotten sick of it really fast too, idk.

SV is also expensive, though it's probably not much more nowadays. The
exception being that you may well need a car there (which is a hell of a lot
less painful than having a car in SF or Boston, since parking is free and
ample, but still an expense to factor in) whereas Boston has really good
public transportation and you can likely do without if you don't mind walking
a bit. Your best bet is to just check around on Apartments.com and Craigslist
and compare rent for similarly sized units in similar areas if you're
concerned about price.

If you're looking for investment for a software startup, or networking that
might lead to that in the future, go directly to Silicon Valley. Do not pass
go, do not collect $200. Our startup was either the first or second YC company
to get a single Boston investor as of this past August. The ratio of SV
investors to Boston in YC startups has to be at least 20:1. I hear Boston is
pretty awesome for biomed though. I imagine you can find great cofounders in
either location, though in Boston you'd have to snag them before they left for
SV.

As for your hypothetical, I'd take big fish little pond any day. The pond can
grow much faster and larger than the fish. And even if it doesn't, it will
almost certainly be more fun and rewarding. Assuming you're normal college
grad age, you've got your whole life to be another cog in the wheel. Give
yourself a shot of avoiding it permanently.

~~~
catch23
I've lived in SV for a year without a car. As long as you're moderately close
to each bay area hub (like castro in mountain view, or university in palo
alto), you'd have access to Caltrain and can go just about anywhere. SV is a
very bicycle friendly place to live.

------
SwellJoe
"Is Boston significantly cheaper than SV (I'd probably be in the Mountain View
area)? It's hard to find comparable areas for cost of apartments and such."

Mountain View is very nearly the same price as San Francisco. Because of
Google it is among the most expensive places in the valley. I've lived here
since we did YC last year, and I've enjoyed it. It's a lovely, quiet, and
highly technology focused area, with good restaurants (as long as you like
Asian and Mediterranean food), cool little groceries and produce markets
(mostly Asian and Mediterranean, but also the Milk Pail which is close to
heaven for fans of fresh food), a fantastic library, and even a decent
cultural scene (though it is very much white bread small town culture...the
performing arts center is excellent for such a tiny town; the massive tax base
of the city insures most city services are excellent).

I don't know anything about Boston, but I've heard it's also quite expensive.

I'm paying $2145/mo for a two bedroom rental house a few blocks from downtown
Mountain View (with a garage). It's pretty big compared to where most of the
folks I know out here are living, but I moved from an even bigger place in
Austin, so it was definitely downsizing for me. I've been shopping for a place
in SF, and have found that prices are pretty similar for smaller
places--$1600-$2000 for a one bedroom (sometimes plus small office) apartment
in a decent location.

Salaries in California are enough to make up for most of the higher cost of
living, as long as you don't have a strong desire to own your own home anytime
soon.

"- Any advice on which of two hypothetical is better: big fish little pond or
little fish big pond? Alternatively, would you rather be at an important team
in a lesser-known company, or a less-important team in a well-known company?"

How long is a piece of string? We can't tell you what the best work
environment is for you. You'll need to try it and see.

~~~
mechanical_fish
_$1600-$2000 for a one bedroom_

Okay, I take back what I said elsewhere on this thread: Boston is considerably
cheaper than this. My wife and I had a 2BR, an entire floor of a house with
off-street parking, in East Arlington for $1400 a month. A mile walk from the
Red Line, on a major bus route. For a cute second-floor walkup 1BR in Davis
Square, Somerville -- literally thirty seconds from the Red Line if you run --
I paid $1150.

~~~
SwellJoe
As I mentioned, Mountain View is very nearly as expensive as San Francisco.
San Jose and Sunnyvale and Santa Clara and Redwood City are two or three
hundred less, in general, for the same space.

The funny thing is how living out here in the valley warps your mind about
real estate rental (and purchase) prices. When I moved out here I was stunned
that I'd be paying twice as much as my mortgage in Austin for less than two
thirds the space. Now that I'm out here, I see a place in SF going for $1675,
and I think, "Wow, I need to jump at that one! Nah, probably already gone, at
that price...why get myself worked up over nothing?"

I'm also probably shopping in somewhat nicer areas than is strictly necessary
(in addition to shopping for a bigger place than someone right out of college
is probably going to want). I have a dog, and I tend to walk at all hours of
the night...it's just a habit I've had for ten to fifteen years, and I think
altering it would negatively impact my life, so I'm shopping only in pretty
safe areas. And, because my reason for moving to the city is to be nearer to
live music, I'm shopping pretty centrally, as well.

You can get a small 1 bedroom place in the $1300 range in both SF and Mountain
View. But, that's probably the lower bound, without living in a really sketchy
or far out location. I guess that's a big part of the reason most YC founders
live with roommates. Splitting a $2700 place three ways works out to a pretty
good deal.

~~~
mechanical_fish
+1, roommates. I did that when I was out there.

And +1 to your strategy of biting the bullet and paying what it costs to be
happy, provided you can afford it of course. I'd prioritize keeping the
commute short, because that wears on you every day. On the other hand, I used
to work in Fremont and live in Fremont, and the commute was nice and short,
and rents are decent, but... Fremont? Not such a happening place. At least a
20 minute drive away from all my friends except the one who was my roommate at
the time.

So the ideal is probably to live in SF and work in SF, or live in Mountain
View/Palo Alto (but not _East_ Palo Alto, unless things have really changed
since I left) and work there as well. Or live in Mountain View and work in
your spare room. ;)

------
sethg
I'll repeat something I said here a while ago: the startups I've encountered
in Boston (including my own employer, MetaCarta) tend to do B2B or government-
contracting work, often bootstrapped with consulting or SBIR money. The Valley
startups I've read about seem more focused on consumer-facing applications. So
if you have a preference for what kind of product you want to be contributing
to, that may affect which city you should live in.

------
nostrademons
I've lived in Boston my whole life. Don't have much experience with the Bay
Area (beyond knowing a couple friends there and visiting once), so I'll stick
mostly to the Boston side of the equation.

Boston is cheaper, but I'm not sure I'd say _significantly_ cheaper. 1BRs
start at about $1200/month here - I've heard that the minimum in Mountain View
is about $1500/month. With roommates, you can get a room for $700ish/month in
the Davis Square area, which is about on par or a little less than Mountain
View. Gas prices are a little lower (talking pennies, though), restaurant
prices seemed a little higher in Boston (though maybe my friends just took me
to inexpensive restaurants in Mountain View), and I didn't get a chance to
check out stores in California.

You can save a _ton_ of money here by living away from the major subway lines.
A friend of mine has $400/month rent (3 roommates) in Brighton because he's at
the end of the Green Line, which is frigging slow. Another friend had
$450/month (1 roommate) in a gigantic 2BR on the Newton/Watertown border. I
looked at rents in the Teele/Inman square areas in Somerville; they're about
$200-300/month less than equivalent apartments in nearby Davis/Harvard
squares, because they aren't directly on the subway line. If you need a car
anyway, definitely consider living in one of the areas that's not well served
by public transportation - you'll make up for it in rent.

The suburbs also have lots of greenery, particularly once you get outside the
128 belt. It's not like suburbs elsewhere in the country, all strip malls and
parking lots laid out on a grid. Typical towns in the Boston area have one or
two major roads running through them, residential roads branching off them,
and lots of unused space because none of the roads are straight. We're on an
acre of land, extending about 500 feet back from the road, and when one of my
dad's friends from Cupertino visited, his son said "Wow, you live on a park."

Driving in Boston sucks. Whenever possible, I drive into Alewife and take the
subway in.

The diversity in the Boston area is a major plus. It's likely that you'll have
_normal_ friends here, the kind that think that yet another social network is
just a burden and not an opportunity. There's a significant tech population,
but it's not like everyone lives and breathes technology.

As for the startup scene: there's an important cultural difference between
Boston and the Bay Area. In Boston, the expectation is that you'll work for an
established company for 10-20 years, pay your dues, and _then_ start a
company. When I talk about startup founders I know, West-coasters seem to
assume they're my age - no, most of them are parents of friends or older
coworkers I've worked with.

This has been changing a bit recently, because of the general trend of younger
people starting companies and the large college population in Boston. But it
still seems to be the expectation among investors. Maybe someone who's sought
funding more recently could comment, but when my cofounder was testing out
investors, many of them seemed very skeptical. Encouraging, but not willing to
part with cash for a couple guys 2 years out of school.

Lastly, I'd encourage you to go far from home. I didn't; actually, I moved
back home after college, since there were no shortage of jobs in my field
close to where I lived, and I could save up cash and use it to fund my own
startup. Which is good, it gave me options and let me do stuff I wouldn't
otherwise be able to - but now I'm looking to move out to Silicon Valley,
precisely because it's on the other side of the country.

------
iamelgringo
So, my wife and I lived in Providence, RI for 3 years.

My wife worked as an admin in a startup for 2-3 weeks in Cambridge, and hated
the job, hated the commute, hated the culture so much, she quit her job and
went back to school to finish her video production degree. She had hoped it
was like her job working at US Robotics/3Com, but it was very, very different.

The thing that we really struggled with in New England was the "Townies" and
the culture. There really are two different classes of people in New England:

    
    
       *"Townies" (people born and raised in the towns of New England)
       * "Gownies" (People who move to New England to go to good schools and then settle in and work white collar jobs or get their grad degree and leave).
    

We never found to many Gownies like us to hang out with, and spent most of our
time hanging out at work/school with the townies. And, while they're really
nice people, hardworking, fun accents. They tend to be rather insular against
outsiders. We were there for 3 years, and I don't have any friends I'd
consider going back and visiting.

So, where you live in Boston-land is important. I think that if you're living
in the East Side of Providence, or Harvard Square in Cambridge, it can make
all the difference in your social life. It's really hard to get a vibe about
that until you've lived there. Each town has a distinct flavor, and a distinct
attitude towards outsiders. Choose wisely.

Silicon Valley: I've almost lived here longer than anywhere else I've ever
lived: 3 years. And, I'm not planning on moving anywhere in the near future. I
really like it here, and I'm not moving away unless I have to. That's never
happened to me ever before. (I've moved over 25 times in 35 years.)

The people are great. The chance to meet other people and make friends with
others that are doing the same things is astounding. I started
<http://hackersandfounders.com> as a meetup group, and it's doubled in size
every month but the last. There's just a ton of hackers interested in founding
businesses here.

That means a ton of emotional/cultural support that you really can't put a
price tag on. Services are also really easy to come by: like it's really easy
to get groceries delivered, getting a maid is rather inexpensive and very much
worth it. Prepared foods can be outsourced pretty easily using something like
Dream Dinners or Dinner A'Fare. You're never very far from really cool things
if you need to take a day trip and get away to recharge the batteries.

And finally, housing. If you're considering moving to SV, you really should
take a look at renting a house with someone. We live in San Jose, and we split
rent on a 4 bedroom, 2 bath house for $2k. Not only do we have a ton of space
and a back yard, we turned the formal living room into the startup office. Not
bad, when my friends are paying $1700 for a nice one-two bedrooms in an
apartment complex. And, you're away from the fun cultural stuff of San
Francisco, but it's only a 75 minute drive without traffic, Mountain View is
30 minutes away, and a bunch of restaurants, coffee shops, movie theaters and
a FedEx/Kinko's are 3-4 minutes away. Pretty ideal for a startup if you ask
me.

------
mechanical_fish
I've lived in Boston, then moved to SV, then moved back to Boston, where I
live now (modulo a few miles).

IMHO, you're right on all counts about the pros and cons. I don't have recent
data, but my impression is that Boston rents are not significantly cheaper (as
they would be in, say, Alabama); savings will come from transportation costs.
You can live without a car in Boston. Living without a car in Silicon Valley
will make you feel like a second-class citizen. Obviously, Boston is closer to
your folks if you're from NY.

If I were going to do a startup, and was able to honestly utter the phrase "I
lived in SV for a while and loved it"... it's _very_ hard to argue with
Silicon Valley. Yeah, it's a monoculture, but it's a monoculture designed
around what you're trying to do. Aspiring screenwriters move to L.A.; aspiring
musicians move to Nashville; aspiring software wizards move to Silicon Valley.

But the most important thing is: you can change your mind. More than once.
Pick the job that seems the best and don't sweat it. Sample Boston for a year
or two if you want and make the move to SV later.

~~~
bkrausz
Unfortunately the offer in Boston is actually about 10mi outside of Boston, so
I'd still need a car.

~~~
hexis
I'd recommend double-checking mbta.com and seeing if the commuter rail or
something would get you to work. Public transportation thins out outside the
more urban parts of metro Boston, but in some cases it reaches much further
than 10 miles outside the city proper.

~~~
nostrademons
I believe it's actually possible to get from Boston to Washington D.C. via
public transportation (with a little bit on Amtrak between Providence and
western Connecticut), so yeah, it reaches much further than 10 miles. ;-)

The problem is time. I live in Bedford, and while it's technically possible to
get a bus+subway from here to the financial district, it takes about an hour
and a half. That's compared to 35 minutes driving (no traffic), ~55 minutes
driving (with traffic), an hour driving to Alewife then taking the red line
in, and an hour and a half for biking to Alewife and taking the subway in. Not
much point.

Commuter rail is similar - it's like 1.5-2 hours to take the commuter rail
from Concord to Porter and then transfer to the red line. Might be a bit
better closer in to the city, but commuter rail coverage is a bit spotty -
it's faster to drive to Alewife from Bedford than it is to get to the nearest
commuter rail stations in Concord or Lincoln.

~~~
raamdev
I recently moved from Arlington ($1200 a month for a huge two-bedroom, off-
street parking, back yard, etc.) to a place in NH for $300 a month. In
Arlington, I was 15 min walk from Alewife and then 10 min subway ride to my
office in Central Square (or a 15 minutes total if I drove).

I had planned on taking the Lowell train to Boston after I moved to NH, but
that was when gas was $3.50+ a gal and it would have cost me $25 for gas
round-trip. Commuting on the train would have added about 2 hours a day to my
commute vs driving in.

My work allows me to be very flexible with my schedule, so I've been driving
in later to avoid rush hour and leaving work after 8pm. With gas less than $2,
it costs me less to drive in than it does to take public transportation, plus
saves me 2 hours a day.

Time = Money (or sanity, at least).

------
anon120
I had offers in both SV and Boston and it was a tough choice. I'm still not
sure I made the right one.

While Boston is cheaper, it's not that much cheaper. I think you'll probably
do slightly better off depending on the offer you get. (I currently live and
work in Mountain View)

Startup-wise Boston seemed pretty sparse compared to the Silicon Valley. That
was definitely part of my decision (not just where to work, but as you say,
networking, conferences to go to, etc).

I still think little fish, big pond is the better way to go. It gets
frustrating otherwise and limits your growth. Important team in a less known
company also is much better for career and personal satisfaction.

I'll be honest, weather also greatly influenced my decision. Also what's your
move going to be like? Getting all my stuff across the country was yet another
reason for me to stay in the SV.

I personally actually much prefer Boston city and the general vibe of Boston,
but career-wise I decided SV was better.

------
danielrhodes
In terms of locations:

I lived in Boston for quite awhile and experienced a bit of the startup scene
there. Bay Area beats it hands down. Boston/Cambridge isn't a bad place to be,
but my experience has been that the diversity doesn't give you any benefit.
Most of the time I was there and doing startups, I felt removed from where the
action was really taking place. There's not a lot of momentum there. I'm a
strong believer that the people you surround yourself with and who you let
influence you have a big impact on your mentality/success.

The price difference in terms of rent/everything else is negligible if you
want it to be. As long as you don't need to be in a certain location to make
you happy, you can live quite cheaply.

In terms of your job offers: You need to consider what you actually want out
of the job. Most likely the real difference is not so great, so the actual
consequences of your decision don't really matter. If you are just out of
school, you should be focused on opening doors and making connections. But
don't put so much emphasis on this one decision -- it's not like you are going
to be there 20 years. For all you know, you could be there 6 months and
realize that you want to do something else or move.

------
mhidalgo
I know the post is whether to choose from Boston or SV, but I see your from
NY. I been around the NYC startup scene for while and there a bunch of
activity here and it only has increased since Wall St. decided to die.
Brooklyn and Manhattan have a bunch of startup opportunities, even some
startups from Ycombinator are located here like Buglabs and Frogmetrics. Not
to mention organizations/meetups like Jelly ( coworking started in nyc),
Meetup.com's ( located in nyc as well)NYC tech meetup, and
<http://www.nextny.org/>. Obviously if you feel the need to move to Boston or
SV I understand completely given there status in tech world but don't overlook
your backyard as well.

------
iigs
You'll find good jobs in either place. Do consider also the cultures of the
two locations. I know granola west coasters that would not be able to hang
with the east coast hustle, and I know east coasters that would be driven
bananas by the happy go lucky California lifestyle. Which stereotype do you
dislike less? You'll be interacting with these people when you're not at work
and if one of these grates on your nerves it can easily build resentment and
unhappiness toward your living arrangement.

Whichever you choose, make a concerted effort to try to learn from and
appreciate the different social norms of your new home. I didn't do all that I
could/should have once, and I regret it.

------
kqr2
With regards to Boston Pros, pt # 3 vs. Silicon Valley, you can always live in
San Francisco even if you work in Mountain View. You can commute via Caltrain.

~~~
dangrover
I'm thinking about this too. I'm moving from Boston to go work at a startup in
Palo Alto. Their offices are right by the Caltrain, but it seems even then,
living in SF (which would otherwise appeal to me) makes the commute kinda
suck.

~~~
gruseom
I commuted between SF and Stanford by motorcycle for a few years and loved it.
Cheap and fast. Caltrain was not in my vocabulary.

------
mooneater
Re: ponds. I would most definitely want to experience both scenarios. So I
would pick the one I hadnt experienced before.

