
Reddit IAMA. An ex Google programmer switched to a job in the lumbering industry - tfh
http://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/c1rcu/iama_person_with_a_cs_degree_that_decided_to_work/
======
joshu
Every time I drive this place I fantasize about buying it and
restoring/repairing it.

<http://www.flickr.com/photos/sayre/4366230632/>

~~~
acgourley
every time I walk by it I imagine fallout-esq nightmares

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staunch
It sounds like this guy thinks his job at Google was as good as it gets. This
is like a musician thinking their job at a marketing agency writing jingles is
the best they can hope for.

My feeling is he probably gave up too early on finding a way to integrate
money making and his passion. Maybe this works best for him though.

~~~
Raphael_Amiard
No it sounds like this guy said to himself exactly "What the fuck am i doing
here writing jingles ?"

From the AMA : "Now I've moved into to the lumbering industry and this has to
be the best choice I've ever made. I kind of think of my job as a paid workout
and I get to hack on OSS in my free time; After all I do have a passion for
software development and I'm deeply involved in various OSS communities."

~~~
staunch
If you read his replies it's quite clear he's drawn a conclusion about how a
programming job has to be.

He says _"However the programming industry is a lot of stress. I am not cut
out for the stress and seemingly arbitrary deadlines."_

He tried the absolute default plan: Get CS degree and work at $MEGA_CORP. He
didn't like it, so he gave up the idea entirely. He could instead have tried
creating his own custom plan. It's totally possible, especially if you're
willing to take a 50% pay cut.

------
thaumaturgy
I have a story to share:

I started programming computers when I was very young. Because of the skills I
developed, and because of some connections I had, I got a very high paying job
in the data processing department of the Livermore School District while I was
still a junior in high school. (I was on independent study at the time.) I
literally made more money than I knew what to do with, unfortunately.

A couple of years later, I had been talking to a girl online, who lived in
Florida. We met a few times. I've never been all that good at the relationship
thing, so this seemed important to me at the time, so I moved to Florida.
Shortly after getting there, I learned Oracle PL/SQL and another language I
can't remember any more in the course of a few days to get a job at Ceridian
Benefits Services; in time I became one of their lead techs with a path into
their software development department. Again, more money than I knew what to
do with.

After about a year of this though, things weren't working out, and there was a
part of me that felt starved. It was the part that enjoyed hiking, enjoyed
being outside, enjoyed being fit and in good physical health. I also had a
strong feeling that everything up to this point had been too easy for me, that
I wasn't getting as much out of life as I wanted to.

So I quit.

I moved back to California and resolved to spend the next few years starting
over, completely from scratch; I wanted to take the hardest possible path
through life for the next few years. (Boy, I had no idea what I was in for.)

I got into rock climbing, and then got a job as a climbing instructor. I had
the opportunity, through my style, personality, will, and determination, to
influence people around me. I made a lot of friends, many of whom I'm still
friends with. I got to feed the outdoor side of my personality for a while.
The job didn't pay much though, and eventually I fled, in debt, to a job in
the retail part of the outdoor industry, in another part of the state.

During this time I didn't use computers, unless it was as a cash register or
inventory system. For a period of a couple of years, I was completely
disconnected from the internet, computers, toys, and gadgets. I learned how to
fix cars, I chased sheep down the street, I climbed a lot, and I wandered
around.

I'm back in computers now, obviously. It took me only about a year to catch up
to the changes in the industry, and I'm one of the leading consultants in my
area now, with a successful business of my own.

But, I'm really, really, really glad I took that road. It taught me so much
that I couldn't have learned by staying behind a computer desk all day long.
It taught me how to relate to people, for one. It taught me how to maintain
some balance in my life, and how to pay attention to the needs of my spirit.
(My girlfriend, who's reading this over my shoulder -- she's really patient
with my need to hear myself talk! -- is reminding me that it's also how I met
her, which is probably the best part of all. :-)

So my main point, in so much as I have one, is that abandoning your core skill
in an area, and putting yourself in over your head for a while, can lead to
some really valuable experiences. You don't need to worry about whether or not
you'll still be able to get back in later, or re-acquire old skills; they'll
come back, in time. Don't worry about that at all.

~~~
wallflower
> It taught me so much that I couldn't have learned by staying behind a
> computer desk all day long. It taught me how to relate to people, for one.

The topic of relating to people always fascinates me. Would you say it is more
about not facts but sharing feelings? What would you want to tell and teach
your future son or daughter about relating to others? Thanks in advance.

~~~
thaumaturgy
Apropos username. ;-)

OK, so, I've always been kinda cerebral, so communicating with people was
something I had to "figure out". I'm not so much that way any more, but I do
remember most of what I did to learn it.

It's definitely more about feelings than facts -- purely factual statements
make a lot of people turn off to you -- but it's also about empathy. Not a
new-age touchy-feely kind of empathy, but merely the ability to quickly
understand the other person's habits, backgrounds, emotions, and personality.
Think of it as learning to communicate in a different language, like speaking
Russian to a Russian.

I studied some psychology, and although on the whole I think it was not
terribly valuable, it did help me typecast people a little bit faster. For
example, I tend to notice whether a person talks about what they _think_ , or
what they _feel_. If they say that they _feel like_ x or y is right or wrong,
then they're talking from an intuitive, emotional standpoint, and being all
cerebral around them isn't going to get you very far.

There's also body language, the kinds of jokes a person tells, the sorts of
phrases they use, and the dialect of language they use. I don't for example
talk to boulderers the same way I'm talking now ... unless I want them to
laugh at me. :-)

It started out as something I had to think about and study, but now it's
intuitive and I don't think of it the same way anymore. It's just something I
do.

I think this is a really valuable thing for other people to do; it would help
communication between people a lot. There would be fewer misunderstandings.

Or, as my much-more-personable-and-outgoing girlfriend who again is reading
over my shoulder says, "Well, yeah, it teaches you how to listen."

Guess I still have a lot more to learn.

------
etaque
One friend of mine did the same, here in France: high level degree, but only
one year working in front of a desk. He totally switched to a sailing
instructor job. As a computer engineer and sailor, that's really appealing me,
but my skin wouldn't bear it. I know he's 100% living during the day, I know
I'm making mouldy on my chair...

~~~
jfornear
I can relate 100%. I have a good friend who quit his desk job in finance to go
to Marine OCS. He runs around in the woods, climbs on mountains, and sleeps on
the ground everyday. This might be dumb, but I feel like he's already done
more with his life than I ever will.

------
haasted
Interesting to be able to directly contrast the comments of a Reddit-story
with the comments on the same story at HN.

------
zandorg
From Python to Monty Python?

~~~
bd
Explanation:

<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5zey8567bcg>

------
wglb
_It felt amazing to leave work with a clear head, not thinking about whatever
unfinished business I had left which could prove to be a problem in meeting
the deadline._

My story is quite the reverse. I grew up on a dryland wheat farm in Montana.
Nature has a way of enforcing its own deadlines. There, you are never not
aware of the issue facing you, hail, no rain, early fall, short crops.
Software deadlines seemed to pale in comparison.

------
thefool
The only problem I have with this is that he left a job where he had the
potential to make a net positive change in the world to one where he is a tool
in destroying the environment.

Sure personally he feels less obligation, but it just seems like eventually
that will catch up with him, i know it would to me... especially for someone
who professes to love the outdoors, and then contributes to its destruction.
The motivation is a little hypocritical...

~~~
krschultz
I'm not sure if I agree with that assesement.

Considering that the lumber industry gets the bulk of their wood from farms
and tracts that are continusouly replanted, they aren't cutting down old
growth forests like "the old says". Compared to aluminum or steel, wood frame
construction is fairly renewable and to be encouraged.

Google is creating new products and services that increase demand for energy.
Everything they do requires more computers sucking up power, more devices to
be made with crazy materials in them etc.

~~~
clutchski
"they aren't cutting down old growth forests"

That's because there are none left. Check out the maps over time here.

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old-growth_forest#Importance>

"the lumber industry gets the bulk of their wood from farms and tracts that
are continusouly replanted"

I believe most commercial logging is clear cut. This is devastating to not
only trees, but soil, animals, watersheds, migratory birds, and who knows what
else down the line.

We need wood, so we have a lumber industry that grows trees and cuts them
down. But don't think for a second that replanting a clear cut wasteland with
monoculture seedlings is in any way "renewable" or "encouraged".

If you have any doubt about the effectiveness of replanting, zoom in and
around British Columbia with google maps. What appears to be a massive
unbroken forest is actually riddled with clearcuts.

[http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&ll=54.361358,-125.178223...](http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&ll=54.361358,-125.178223&spn=2.269354,7.13562&t=h&z=8)

------
amichail
Are most programmers even capable of this sort of physical work?

Also, what happens if you get injured on the job?

~~~
ecuzzillo
Probably most can do something with their hands, even if it doesn't involve
lots of strength. The thing about the guy who wrote the book about switching
from being some kind of knowledge worker to a motorcycle repairman has
circulated here a few times, which is presumably less physically taxing than
lumbering.

~~~
bmj
Matthew Crawford's book is pretty good, I think. The original essay is here:

[http://www.thenewatlantis.com/publications/shop-class-as-
sou...](http://www.thenewatlantis.com/publications/shop-class-as-soulcraft)

One thing to note: Crawford is a motorcycle repairman, but he's still a
knowledge worker to some extent. And, of course, the book length treatment of
the subject was subsidized by a university.

------
bitwize
Making bucks, working outside, getting exercise... fuckin' A!

------
clistctrl
I have this ambition to move into the middle of a forest some where. I'd love
to spend my day tending to a garden, and maybe a few animals supporting
myself. To live life the way it used to be. At night i'd hack on code again,
or actually spend time with my girlfriend (maybe wife?). At least in that case
if I worked 70 hours a week, I personally would receive the value from 70
hours of work. Right now I'm just getting fatter, my cloths smell because i'm
too tired to do laundry, though I see my girl friend every day I'm too tired
to do anything.

~~~
bmj
It is is entirely possible to work in the software industry, on interesting
projects, without living this way.

I average about 45 hours a week, with no more than 35 from the office. I ride
my bike to and from the office, spend most weekends outside either climbing or
riding my bike, and spend the warmer evenings with my family in the backyard.
Oh, and I just got back from a one month road trip.

Certainly, I've put in some long days (this is not limited to sedentary labor
--ever talked to a farmer?), but these are almost always offset by flexible
schedules and comp time. I suggest, perhaps, if you like programming, that you
look for another gig.

~~~
blackguardx
Where do you climb?

~~~
bmj
We live in Pittsburgh, so primarily at the New River Gorge and Coopers Rock.
We'll take several trip to the Red River Gorge, too, and we just returned from
three weeks at Hueco Tanks.

Yourself?

~~~
blackguardx
I currently live in NYC, so I mainly climb at the Gunks. However, I am moving
to Boulder in a month after a road trip to Yosemite. I look forward to
expanding my crag options.

Have you been to Seneca Rocks? I had my first trad experience there. The
exposure was awesome.

~~~
bmj
You'll have no lack of cragging options in Boulder, that's for sure.

I've not been to Seneca--we are tried-and-true boulderers/sport climbers.

------
hackermom
Not the first guy who has had thoughts of quitting IT and getting a real job.

~~~
hello_moto
I wonder why is that...

