
A couple of negative points about commenting on HackersNews - feralimal
* There&#x27;s no info about what formatting is allowed - no style guide.<p>* When you are newbie, you can only upvote.  Some people can downvote though!
<i></i> I&#x27;ve been commenting here for a few months and still cannot downvote.
<i></i> There&#x27;s no info about how and when you get the option to downvote.
<i></i> There&#x27;s no info about whether there are other super-powers as well as downvoting.  Eg, sometimes comments or posts that were on the front page disappear quickly!  Is this on account of an uber-user downvoting?<p>I&#x27;ve been told in comments that downvoting is only &#x27;enabled&#x27; once you have enough upvotes.  Ok, I understand you want to encourage high quality posts and comments.<p>There is a problem with that methodology though.  It basically mandates that you go along with the consensus opinion to maintain your &#x27;privileges&#x27;.  But, blow me if I&#x27;ve absolutely no interest in consensus opinion!<p>Is a critical opinion really a problem?  Perhaps I do present &#x27;salty&#x27; opinions, but I believe them to be true, and I&#x27;m happy to defend them.  I think that&#x27;s the scientific method in action.  But around here, it turns out I&#x27;m actually a 3rd class citizen.  Boo!<p>So, I would ask HN for 2 things.
1.  Is there a link to the style guide?  Could this not be made easily accessible?
2.  What are the &#x27;tiers&#x27; of user-hood, and what are the &#x27;superpowers&#x27; and &#x27;unlock&#x27; codes for each?  Again, could this also not be made easily accessible?
======
gulato
My 2 cents at 24 units of.. whatever it's called here. (i don't care)

Internet points don't add value to my life.

I don't come here for "salty opinions" I come here for polite, insightful,
hopefully entertaining conversation. Endless "salty opinions" aren't any of
those three things.

You can disagree without being "salty" \-- and this website owes you nothing.
You have freedom! You can go to some other popular website where downvoting is
the norm.

~~~
feralimal
> Internet points don't add value to my life.

Absolutely. I don't want points. But I'm collecting negative points whilst
giving honest and authentic contributions. I'm being judged and found wanting.
Why?

I don't mind hearing or being deconstructed (or ignored for that matter). But
why take one on what I have to say, when I'm being straightforward? I'm acting
in good faith.

It feels like I have to be part of the 'hive mind' or f __* off like you
suggest. But I like this site and what 's discussed.

------
yesenadam
> could this also not be made easily accessible?

Google anything you want to know. There are quite a few sites/blogs with info
about HN. The HN site is lightweight, people like it that way. There is a
guidelines page, which you should pay a _lot_ more attention to (I looked at
your comments). There's a lot of wisdom in those guidelines. Put more effort
into writing good comments. Some of yours are good, but half are downvoted,
and it's not hard to see why. Having trouble reaching 501 points is a problem
of someone who arrived here yesterday. Focus, for now at least, on what you
can give HN, not what you can get. Does your comment leave the page better
than you found it? If not, delete it. (e.g. complaints about being downvoted
never add to a page) I do that quite a lot! - write a comment, then when
finished, see it adds little or nothing, so delete it and move on. It was
enough to write it.

Try to avoid the "I'm downvoted because I'm right" disease, which you seem to
be developing a strong case of. Consider for a moment that that problem is
you, not HN.

Even after you've done that, if you focus on political comments, as you seem
to do – particularly of the "All government is slavery" kind, to quote from
one of your comments – you may still attract more downvotes than upvotes. I
suspect there are far better sites for such discussions.

~~~
feralimal
I like the lightweight element of the site. I'm not asking for anything except
the rule sheet though.

Can I say, you're a bit rude. I think you may disagree with my 'political'
comments, but then put words in my mouth. I like meaningful engagement, and -
yes I have my (reasoned) views and put them out there to be challenged and
discussed. But I don't "know I'm right" \- I actually like to be set straight
when I'm wrong.

Really, your comments shows that HN is all about a consensus of opinion.
You're saying I should police my own opinion, and even delete comments if its
not going along with the flow or something.

~~~
yesenadam
> Really, your comments shows that HN is all about a consensus of opinion.

This seems another example of the criticism-proving-you-right disease. I
thought I gave a load of useful advice.

> You're saying I should police my own opinion, and even delete comments if
> its not going along with the flow or something.

That's nothing like what I said, is it. Yes, everyone should "police" their
own opinions, if you want to put it like that – for example, some comment
triggers you and you write an angry response. After writing it, read it again
with a cooler head and before posting it decide if it really adds to HN, or
subtracts. I often find that just writing it is enough – I learnt something by
writing it, or got my anger/resentment out of my system. (Maybe you think 100%
of the comments you write are worth posting; for me it's far less.) I said
nothing about a consensus or "going with the flow", and don't mean anything
like that.

~~~
feralimal
I'm not writing in an emotional way - I'm not angry or upset, or need to cool
down, or any of the things I think you are mis-ascribing to me.

I'm writing in a way that proposes or advances an argument or a position. It
might not be the same position as the majority hold, but it is my considered
and explainable one.

I'm absolutely not saying 'I need to be right' \- which is criticism you are
levelling. I'm having conversations that explore, or trying to. I learn from
being wrong, and I'm happy - HAPPY - to be corrected.

All the best.

~~~
yesenadam
I didn't mean _you_ are angry or upset etc, sorry I wasn't clearer.

I didn't say that you "need to be right".

You've repeated that you are happy to be corrected, "set straight". It just
seems that you thought nothing I said was in the least bit helpful, so I never
got to see that! I don't believe it. I was just "a bit rude", "mis-ascribed"
many things to you, "put words in your mouth", etc. I get what seems a similar
unpleasant experience interacting with you that you get from HN – please
consider that it's projection, i.e. that you are the problem.

~~~
feralimal
Lol. Passive aggressive much?

> I didn't mean you are angry or upset etc, sorry I wasn't clearer.

Say what you think. You think I'm dumb cos I didn't take the point that you
repeatedly made. That you think I'm the problem. Be honest! Stop couching.

> I didn't say that you "need to be right".

But, you did! You said: "Try to avoid the "I'm downvoted because I'm right"
disease". I have a disease, in your opinion, and its that I'm right.

> You've repeated that you are happy to be corrected, "set straight". It just
> seems that you thought nothing I said was in the least bit helpful, so I
> never got to see that!

But I really don't find what you say helpful! Sorry.

If I have an argument or a discussion point, I'm free to state it. At least, I
think I should be. I'm happy to engage with a rational argument, and present a
case. And if my PoV is found wanting, I'll embrace truth and reality. But your
'answer' is that I internalise an external problem. Delete my comment say, to
not make a fuss.

But no, I'm not going to give up on reason or rational thinking, because the
majority thinks something other. I'm hear to learn and share knowledge. I'm
confident in my line of thought, that its rational. I'm very far from
internalising or quashing my rational thinking for the sake of offending the
majority, who I happen to think are frequently in error.

And, by the way, the majority really can be in error. It may feel like a
comfortable consensus is occurring here on HN. I'm saying that this could be
on account of the management of the site - certain uncomfortable realities
cannot be discussed. Living in a bubble is fine in a way, but absence of
knowledge won't make reality go away. I'm hoping the scientific method may
force you (and me) to accept reality, even if we may wish for something else.

------
mindcrime
By and large, none of these things are really all that "negative". You're
talking about nits at best. And I'd argue that HN is the way it is
intentionally, based on the audience the site owners want (or wanted) to
appeal to.

That said, there is an unofficial guide that has been assembled, that
documents most of the kinds of things you're asking about.

See:

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16437973](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16437973)

~~~
feralimal
Thanks!

------
mplanchard
I generally see people on here aligning with the intent of the site
([https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html](https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html))
not being downvoted. Which is to say, salty opinions, presented intelligently
and politely, seem to do just fine for the most part. The downvote here is
supposed to mean not that someone disagrees with you, but that you aren’t
following the guidelines, seem to be arguing in poor faith, etc.

There’s also a cap on the number of downvotes a comment can receive, so you
can only get I think -4 points no matter how bad of a comment you make.

You’ll also notice that upvotes for submissions only count for half the points
as upvotes on comments. In general, the system is designed to promote
reasoned, deeper discussion, and for the most part I think it does it well (or
at least better than most online discussion forums).

The only “superpower” is downvoting. It doesn’t take all that many points to
achieve. My understanding is they want folks to be familiar with the site’s
guidelines and standards before giving them power to downvote.

Regarding the style guide, I don’t know of an official source, but if you go
for markdown without links, you’ll generally be fine, and you can always edit
your posts if needed.

~~~
mindcrime
_Which is to say, salty opinions, presented intelligently and politely, seem
to do just fine for the most part._

I've found that to be true for the most part. It's not quite the case though,
that all opinions will be treated fairly even when presented intelligently and
politely. In my own experience, I've found that certain comments will be
downvoted more or less no matter what.

------
feralimal
Answers from the thread with thanks:

news guidelines here:

[https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html](https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html)

format doc here:

[https://news.ycombinator.com/formatdoc](https://news.ycombinator.com/formatdoc)

an unofficial guide here:

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16437973](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16437973)

In summary: You need 501 karma to downvote a comment.

Stories fall from the front page when they get many flags. You need only 31
karma to flag.

When a story gets much more comments than upvotes, it gets a penalty.

The mods can sink a story, or remove the penalty of the flags or the automatic
penalty.

------
feralimal
PS, I would encourage any others who share my frustration as the lack of
clarity about the process on HN to comment. Or to set me straight about how I
missed the links! Cheers.

------
gus_massa
The instruction for formatting is difficult to find, even if you know it exist
[https://news.ycombinator.com/formatdoc](https://news.ycombinator.com/formatdoc)
tl;dr: not too much

You need 501 karma to downvote a comment. I think the threshold is a feature,
not a bug.

Try to avoid political threads. Each one has his/her opinion and wants to
donwvote any alternative.

Technical threads are more safe. Sometime people get downvoted for being
wrong, but I don't like it so I upvote gray comments (unless they are
offensive or very wrong).

Anyway, I use the downvote very seldom, perhaps only once per day. What do you
want to downvote?

The stories fall from the front page when they get many flags. You need only
31 karma to flag. Also when a story gets much more comments that upvotes, it
gets a penalty. The mods can sink a story, or remove the penalty of the flags
or the automatic penalty.

~~~
feralimal
PS

From what you say, it seems that mods are pretty powerful. They can turn a
story around or bury it or whatever.. That is all invisible to us users,
right?

This is to say, we can't say whether the story is authentically popular or
unpopular, as we don't have that information.

Gah! What happened to free speech?

I know that this is a private site... I know.

But still, can't we even know that we're being manipulated? Is this our life
now, where we cannot be trusted to make judgements for ourselves, but instead
all information must be massaged and managed for us?!!?

~~~
gus_massa
The mods can literally unplug the sever or modify the sorting algorithm to use
the reverse order, or whatever they want.

~~~
feralimal
Yes.

I just don't get why its accepted or somehow morally ok to silently manage
information for others.

The key word is: 'silently'. A mod should be able to manage the conversation,
kick people off, delete comments etc, fine - but there should be a note to
indicate how whatever bit was impacted. Otherwise, moderators are able to act
like gods over a conversation or a forum, accountable to no one.

Well, I suppose they will have to judge themselves, but I don't think they are
really going to take themselves to task!

If people are acting in good faith, they may present information that may be
true AND unpleasant to accept or not per consensus opinion. The scientific
method should accept the various viewpoints and converge to a better picture
of reality. But that can't happen if dissenting voices are closed down.

It always surprises me that scientific thinkers, such as there are on this
site, are not strongly in support of lots of voices. I don't mean that HN
should become a popularity contest or something, but that honest sharing of
curiosity and personal experience should be encouraged, not silenced.

Seriously, apart from some crap sites (eg 4chan), where can the 'unthinkable'
be raised and discussed sensibly nowadays? I don't think there is anywhere.

~~~
gus_massa
They don't delete the comments. You can see the [dead] comments if you enable
"showdead" in your profile.

~~~
feralimal
thanks

