
The Law of the Somalis, a Nation Successful Without Any Central Government - dfps
http://tttthis.com/lawofthesomalis.php
======
loriverkutya
According to the British Goverment Somalia is not a successful nation:

> The Foreign and Commonwealth Office (FCO) advise against all travel to
> Somalia, including Somaliland except for the cities of Hargeisa and Berbera
> to which the FCO advise against all but essential travel. Any British
> nationals in areas of Somalia to which the FCO advise against all travel
> should leave. Any British nationals in Hargeisa or Berbera who are not on
> essential travel should leave.

> Crime There is a dangerous level of criminal activity by armed militia
> throughout Somalia. There have been murders, armed robbery and a number of
> incidents of kidnapping. There are regular outbreaks of inter-clan violence
> throughout Somalia.

[https://www.gov.uk/foreign-travel-advice/somalia](https://www.gov.uk/foreign-
travel-advice/somalia)

~~~
gliese1337
But how much of that is the result of foreign interference in the last few
decades, with an attempt to forcibly install a new democratic government and
replace existing social institutions, and how much of it is actually traceable
to their traditional legal system?

~~~
dfps
This is an interesting point. I'd like to get some information on this myself.
Of course, replacing ANY government or social system with another one will
result in social upheaval and difficulties. In the book, van Notten alludes to
this, and provides some insight, but it isn't really a clear and comprehensive
statement.

------
Mediterraneo10
I know that Somalia as an example of a successful country and not an
unsuccessful one has become popular among a certain subset of libertarians.
(Probably not any large subset, just particularly vocal advocates like the
Mises Institute.) But I have always found this odd, because classical
libertarians tend to insist on the rights of the _individual_ , and law in
Somalia is based on the primacy of clans and extended families where the
individual doesn’t count for much.

~~~
moomin
And clans... are states.

~~~
TheCoelacanth
It always confuses me how right libertarians can have such a huge blind spot
for coercive power coming from anything that doesn't look exactly like a
nation-state. If a private organization can exercise coercive power over me,
is that somehow better than if a nation-state can exercise coercive power over
me? I don't see how. If anything it is worse because at least a democratic
nation-state has some level of accountability to me in the form of voting. A
private organization has no accountability to me at all.

~~~
cjalmeida
One of the most accepted definitions of State is "the entity that has the
monopoly of power in a given region"

If a clan in Somalia, an indian chief, or a drug dealer in a ghetto has the
actual power to punish, he's the State - not necessarily Government.

By that logic, as people organize themselves and get larger, there will always
be someone with State prerogatives.

------
fredley
> functioning fine

Here is the US Overseas Security Advisory Council report on Somalia for 2017:
[https://www.osac.gov/pages/ContentReportDetails.aspx?cid=218...](https://www.osac.gov/pages/ContentReportDetails.aspx?cid=21823)

> Pervasive and violent crime is an extension of the general state of
> insecurity in Somalia. Serious, brutal, and often fatal crimes are common.
> Kidnapping and robbery are particular problems in Mogadishu, other areas in
> the south, and in Galmuduug and Puntland.

~~~
empath75
For a libertarian, they're not worried about that because they think they'll
have enough guns to protect their.. uh, their bitcoin miner i guess? i'm not
sure how they think they'll earn money.

~~~
nkrisc
Ever met a poor libertarian? They expect they'll be living in their walled
compound surrounded by their private police force.

~~~
arethuza
And what is going to stop your "private police force" from simply taking
control and kicking your out (or executing you)? A contract?

Edit: I would expect leadership in those circumstances to simply fall to the
most effective leader in that kind of context (which I suspect would be
someone from a military background) rather than someone who used to have a big
bank balance. Give that a few generations and you'll end up with hereditary
clan leadership and eventually "royalty" \- all royal lines can usually be
traced so some "stupendous badass".

~~~
nkrisc
An excellent question. My personal answer would be, "a powerful central
government through which I (or my estate) can seek remediation."

~~~
arethuza
Maybe your "powerful central government" could organise an effective police
force?

------
shawndellysse
> It may be the only country in the world that has shown that they “don’t need
> central government” and was functioning fine.

For certain definitions of "functioning fine", yeah sure I'll buy that.

------
zentiggr
> Also, I have doubts about how the Somali system would survive serious clan
> or national conflicts once they emerge, or how the problem of violence
> spiraling out of hand would be contained without a powerful central
> government.

A quote directly from the article, and I can only say, I suppose we are seeing
that. Blood feuds, mass killings and kidnappings, rape, ...

This entire source article could only have been written with the sturdiest and
most carefully constructed horse-blinders.

~~~
dfps
You might compare the violence with that in a very strict society, like the
Soviet Union, or with any other country, whether Latin American countries
lately, many African nation with various governments, or certain parts of
North America (Dade might be a forerunner), though, so is the reason for
violence in Somalia attributable to their form of law?

------
dsr_
A relevant thought experiment:

How would you set up a social system, knowing that you would be reborn into it
as a completely random member? That is, your chance of getting an education,
having family stability, finding work and otherwise surviving being exactly in
line with the way you set that system up from the beginning?

Secondarily relevant question: which existing system offers you the best
probability of a satisfactory life given that random start? What features of
that system make it better?

~~~
distances
> Secondarily relevant question: which existing system offers you the best
> probability of a satisfactory life given that random start? What features of
> that system make it better?

One of the Northern European social democracies is a strong bet. High-trust
societies with free education, good social safety net in cast I end up in a
broken family, and stable democracies with proven track record of improving
the society vs. improving conditions just for the main voting populace.

I think that high-trust part is one of the most important ones if often
overlooked. I think it means in practice that you don't have to worry of being
ruined even if your clique doesn't win, and you don't have to second-guess
everyone's true motives.

~~~
dfps
Good points.

------
sharemywin
I find it awful interesting that the person whose book is being cited was
killed.

~~~
zeveb
That's actually incorrect: according to his obituary[0], he died of heart
failure.

[0]
[https://web.archive.org/web/20120205104310/http://www.isil.o...](https://web.archive.org/web/20120205104310/http://www.isil.org/resources/fnn/2002nov/van-
notten-obit.html)

~~~
dfps
From other reading, I got the impression the circumstances were suspicious.
The obit refers to heart failure, but without details. So I'm left without any
certainty.

------
quantumofmalice
As luck would have it, immigration to Somalia is both inexpensive and free
from bureaucratic oversight, so I would encourage anyone who is inspired by
this article to go with godspeed.

~~~
notahacker
I think the most telling bit of the whole article is where the author is
described as "a man who was eventually killed while trying to create his own
region in Somalia"...

Strictly speaking Somalia and its various autonomous regions do now have
government, though you still won't face many restrictions on migration,
particularly not if you look like you have assets. But a certain period of
Somalia's history is very appealing to a certain type of "libertarian" to whom
the idea of no taxes, decentralised everything, no taxes, "polycentric law"
consisting of clans trying to pay each other off to avoid blood feuds, no
taxes, rugged entrepreneurs starting businesses against amazing odds and did I
mention no taxes.

Unfortunately it doesn't correspond well with the reality of a society where
ransoms were a major source of national income, stronger families generally
could ensure the "judgement" they wanted irrespective of the facts of the case
and women didn't even have enough ability to "preserve the dignity and
integrity of their body" to not have bits of their genitals chopped off by
clan elders.

~~~
zeveb
> I think the most telling bit of the whole article is where the author is
> described as "a man who was eventually killed while trying to create his own
> region in Somalia"...

As I noted elsethread, that's not true: he died of heart failure[0].

[0]
[https://web.archive.org/web/20120205104310/http://www.isil.o...](https://web.archive.org/web/20120205104310/http://www.isil.org/resources/fnn/2002nov/van-
notten-obit.html)

------
teilo
And this, despite being an advocate for personal freedom and limited
government, is why I am not a libertarian or an anarcho-capitalist. They live
in a fantasy land.

Culture matters, and no one form of government works for every nation. That is
why it is just as much folly to impose western democracy upon the world as it
would be to impose anarcho-capitalism upon the world.

------
peterwwillis
From the historical perspective of great dynasties of civilized societies,
central government is basically a byproduct of power struggle. One powerful
group wants to impose their power on everyone else, or perhaps the whole
society wants to impose the collective will on everyone else, so they create a
central government. When that doesn't happen, you get nations which are tied
together by common bonds, but they decide matters by convening councils and
mutual agreement and compromise, and don't attempt to force their will. But
all are usually happy to force their will on other nations.

Generally speaking, cultures that have strict observances of Gods that require
things of their peoples are a lot more into imposing their will on others.
Every society collectively agrees to buy into the way that society works,
because the implicit threat is that if you don't buy into it, your neighbor
will kill you.

------
Wildgoose
There is a difference between the formerly British controlled Somaliland and
the former Italian colony of Somalia. The latter fell apart but the former
retained a semblance of civil society. Without having read the article (it is
blocked from my work account) I suspect the article is actually discussing
Somaliland rather than Somalia.

~~~
xenophonf
Nope - Somaliland is a pretty dangerous place, too. From
[https://www.gov.uk/foreign-travel-advice/somalia](https://www.gov.uk/foreign-
travel-advice/somalia):

 _The Foreign and Commonwealth Office (FCO) advise against all travel to
Somalia, including Somaliland except for the cities of Hargeisa and Berbera to
which the FCO advise against all but essential travel._

And from [https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/international-
tra...](https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/international-
travel/International-Travel-Country-Information-Pages/Somalia.html):

 _Violent crime, such as kidnapping and murder, is common throughout Somalia,
including in Puntland and Somaliland. Illegal roadblocks are also widespread._

------
siculars
By which measure are we determining success?

------
pitaj
Here are some better articles about Somalia in the same vein as this one,
which is sub-par.

[0] [https://mises.org/library/stateless-somalia-and-loving-
it](https://mises.org/library/stateless-somalia-and-loving-it)

[1] [https://mises.org/library/anarchy-
somalia](https://mises.org/library/anarchy-somalia)

[2] [http://www.bbc.com/news/world-
africa-12278628](http://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-12278628)

~~~
dfps
Thanks for these links.

The Stateless article is a good book report. One nice phrase from it: "Thus
while a judge may form his own principles, his customers will decide his
competence as a judge."

One error to be aware of is in the following paragraph. Successful plaintiffs
are not free to resort to self-help to enforce payments. Self-help, as I
understand it through van Notten, is a last ditch measure when no justice is
agreeable. Successful rulings are enforced by an individual's own jilib,
according to van Notten.

------
mtgx
Let's send Peter Thiel there. I'm sure he'd love it.

~~~
sharemywin
how do you sue companies out of existence if there's no government?

~~~
sharemywin
You can only down vote me so much Peter.

