
Surface Laptop is just a laptop - lainon
https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2017/07/surface-laptop-is-just-a-laptop-making-it-microsofts-most-baffling-release-yet/
======
usaphp
I know they just tried to bring price under the $1000, but selling a laptop
with 4gb of RAM in 2017 is criminal.

~~~
prodmerc
RAM is like what, $10 per GB? I'm assuming they use the exact same motherboard
across all models. This is never about the end user price, just profits.

I really wonder how many low end models some companies actually produce - I've
always been sure they're just using them to push people to buy the mid-range
one.

~~~
ikeboy
[https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01F3R8XC6](https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01F3R8XC6)

This model is selling about 200 units a month just on Amazon.

Most popular one on that listing is
[https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01F3R9136?th=1](https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01F3R9136?th=1),
rank 1000 estimated 250 sales a month.

I'm estimating all the models on that listing together are selling about 1000
units a month.

Edit: went back and found some more listings:

[https://www.amazon.com/HP-14-inch-E2-7110-Windows-14-an013nr...](https://www.amazon.com/HP-14-inch-E2-7110-Windows-14-an013nr/dp/B01F4ZG68A/)
My tools are telling me this single item is selling 1500 units a month.

[https://www.amazon.com/Acer-E5-575-33BM-15-6-Inch-
Processor-...](https://www.amazon.com/Acer-E5-575-33BM-15-6-Inch-Processor-
Generation/dp/B01K1IO3QW/) estimated 2500 units a month.

Just look through [https://www.amazon.com/Best-Sellers-Computers-Accessories-
La...](https://www.amazon.com/Best-Sellers-Computers-Accessories-
Laptop/zgbs/pc/565108/) for the top laptops. Top 5 are all 4GB RAM.

Extrapolating a bit I'd say low end laptops are selling in the mid 5 figures
of units per month on Amazon, or possibly low six figures.

And it seems that low end outsell high end in terms of number of units, at
least - but since the high end can be 3 or more times the price, it's
difficult to say how the total amount paid compares with this quick back of
the envelope calculation.

~~~
prodmerc
Interesting, thanks!

I was going to ask who buys them but they I remembered my neighbors don't even
have a computer. Just smartphones and tablets...

------
excalibur
> Similarly, while on the one hand PC OEMs are concerned about the user
> experience if a laptop is accidentally charged from a smartphone
> charger—something made possible by USB Type-C—I feel this concern is
> misplaced. It's true that the laptop will charge much more slowly from a 5W
> smartphone charger than a 35 or 60W laptop charger. It may not even be able
> to charge at all unless sleeping, merely treading water draining its battery
> as fast as it charges while turned on. But you know what? It'll still charge
> faster from a 5W smartphone charger than it will from no charger at all
> because you've left it on your desk at work. A world in which every laptop's
> charger is compatible, and where you can use a phone charger at a pinch, is
> a world I want to live in.

It seems to me the greater concern is dimbulbs plugging their phone into their
laptop charger.

~~~
bergie
USB Power Delivery is a negotiating protocol, so plugging a phone to a laptop
charger should work just fine.

------
usaphp
> using a pen on the Laptop is inconvenient at best, downright idiotic at
> worst. You have to grab the lid to try to steady it and stop the whole thing
> wobbling and moving.

I wonder how many of you are using touch screens on a laptop, especially when
your main job is programming?

~~~
skrebbel
I use it all the time, when I work without a monitor and keyboard. Mostly for
switching apps and starting stuff - the windows task bar is only just above
the function keys after all.

I also swipe from the right for quick settings (brightness, network, quiet
mode, etc) all the time. Like in phones, it's a super fast way to scroll
something exactly to where you want it.

Oh, and scrolling. I ditched sublime for vs code just because it scrolls on
touch+drag and sublime selects text.

It's gotten so far that when I find myself on a laptop without a touchscreen I
get all confused and keep touching the screen.

I really love touch screens.

~~~
usaphp
> Mostly for switching apps

But if your hands are already on a keyboard isn't clicking alt-tab faster than
lifting your wrists and do sliding gesture?

------
Roritharr
Intel recently leaked their upcoming Intel I7-8xxxU Processors. They are going
to be available in a real quad-core 8 thread configuration at 15W TDP.

I really hope MS will use one of those to release a Surfacebook with 32GB Ram
and atleast one Thunderbolt 3 Port.

That would last me long enough to justify the high pricetag. The current
Surfacebooks are just too limited in their lifetime because of the connectors.

~~~
frik
We can thank AMD a lot. Without real competition (AMD Ryzen many cores) we had
to suffer stagnation in CPUs for several years while Intel had ready design
lined up for future.

------
bhouston
The Dell XPS 15 9560 is just amazing with the Intel Core i7 7700, upgraded to
32GB of ram, and a 1TB SSD and the best part an NVIDIA GTX 1050. Ubuntu and
Windows 10 runs great on it. It is 4 lbs.

I use it as my primary workstation with the thunderbolt docking station and a
4K monitor. It is thin, light and strong.

~~~
JohnTHaller
The only downside is that the Thunderbolt port on the 9560 is two PCIe lanes
instead of 4. I'd wager it's because of the GTX 1050 inside using some of
them. Oddly, the only XPS laptop with 4 lanes to the Thunderbolt port is the
XPS 13 9365 2 in 1.

If you ever want more oomf graphics-wise at your desk, grab the Gigabyte
Gaming Box with a GTX 1070 inside. You get HDMI, DisplayPort and two DVI ports
to keep permanently connected to your desktop displays as well as 4 USB 3
ports (one with QuickCharge 3.0) to keep connected to your keyboard, mouse,
external drives, and other peripherals. I'd wager you're doing most of that
with your docking station now, but the Auroros Gaming Box is a crazy deal at
$599 for anyone that wants more GPU at the desk or doesn't have a discrete
card in their laptop but has TB3.

~~~
Kudos
I think you meant Auros instead of Auroros, link for the lazy:
[https://www.gigabyte.com/Graphics-
Card/GV-N1070IXEB-8GD#kf](https://www.gigabyte.com/Graphics-
Card/GV-N1070IXEB-8GD#kf)

~~~
tonetheman
God I am old. How does that thing even hook up to laptop?

~~~
jamiek88
One single thunderbolt 3 connection.

I love thunderbolt, now it's been opened up hopefully it'll be in a lot more
chipsets.

------
guelo
What is the Windows laptop to get if you want 32gb, a retina level bright
display and latest gen processor?

~~~
zeeveener
May be pricey but the Razer brand has good machines

~~~
dawnerd
Might be true but I just can't justify spending that much on a razer branded
item due to their pretty bad quality control on their mice and keyboards. I
used to buy them all the time and the mice would all die in under a year and
keyboards shortly after. Support said it was "normal wear and tear" and not
covered.

~~~
pdimitar
Seconded. I bought pretty expensive Razer keyboard and mouse ~18 months ago.
The keyboard started acting up after I spilled water on it 5-6 times. (And
yes, I expect a $200 keyboard to be waterproof!)

Even without the water spills, the quality of the keycaps and the feel when
typing gradually worsened after the first 11-12 months of usage. I am not
opposed to paying $200 for a keyboard but I expect more durability for my
money.

Ended up replacing it for ~$70 Chinese mechanical backlit waterproof keyboard
that has been, and still is, the best keyboard I've ever used.

The Deathadder Chroma mouse is nice though. I used cheaper mice that I liked
more both in visuals and performance but the mouse is passable. I don't think
it should be that expensive for its quality but it serves me just fine for 15
months now and hasn't degraded in any way.

~~~
dawnerd
In regards to the deathadder, it may be fixed with recent iterations, but the
plastic piece that hits the actual button wears over time causing clicks to
happen twice. The fix is to unscrew the mouse and get a (somewhat funny
actually) razor blade and flatten out the tab. They should have used stronger
plastic or a different design. I've never had a Logitech or Microsoft mouse do
that. I'm just assuming they built that into their design so you'll buy
another in a year.

And for the keyboard I have no idea what failed on them. Owned three over the
years, all just stopped working at one point in their life.

~~~
pdimitar
I have zero issues paying for top quality. I believe it's fair for you as an
OEM to charge more if you're better than the competition.

My issues start when the supposed top quality is surpassed by easy-to-find
Chinese products on Amazon costing 40% of Razer's price. And when I say
"surpassed", I mean it in literally every way. The keyboard I now use has
better switches, is extremely realiable, her anti-ghosting capabilities are
predictable and never failed, it survived spills of water, sugary drinks and
hot drinks without ever missing a keystroke, and is still going strong after
almost a year without any signs of wear and tear. Hell it didn't even get a
scratch when I dropped a knife and fork on it!

I appreciate the DIY advice, thank you. I feel all of us have to become DIY
experts over time because when OEMs see fit to push planned obsolence even in
products like a keyboard and a mouse, we have to respond in kind -- repair
your stuff and refuse the give money when the OEM tells you to.

------
jgh
So what if it's _just_ a laptop? I really hate that trend toward making
everything a tablet/touchscreen in the PC market. I don't really want one of
the new MBPs when it comes time to upgrade mine, but looking at the other side
of the fence is equally cringe-inducing.

The higher-end (non-touchscreen) Dell XPS mentioned by a sibling looks
promising though.

don't touch my screen.

~~~
domenukk
I just downgraded from a convertible to a more powerful non touch Windows 10
laptop and it sucks. Reaching the screen and nothing moves... The only OS I
can stand without Touchscreen is Linux since I'm on the command line most of
the time anyway

------
Theodores
I think Microsoft know what they are doing with the fluffy keyboard surround.
In the retail channel where demo machines are available to touch, decisions
are very much on look and feel.

The lack of USB C makes me wonder if Microsoft are stupid. However, had they
just put two USB C ports and little else then people would be complaining.
Still not sure who this laptop is for. It also doesn't represent some
undreamed of future either.

~~~
Etheryte
I'm not sure if I agree with the demo idea, I doubt the material will look
nice after a ton of people touch it on display. Even if the material was
specifically made to cover an area that you put your hands on all the time, it
just doesn't _seem_ durable.

------
nunez
the alcantara definitely feels different than the version they use for the
type cover. more plasticky.

------
to3m
I can't believe that this is described as unadventurous, when it's a laptop
that's covered in Alcantara right where you're going to put your sweaty palms.

------
bane
The time has come, my wife's 2 year old laptop with a touchscreen we bought at
Costco for $400 is finally dying. I use a custom Windows desktop at home (no
touchscreen) and a rMBP at work so I'm not too much into one or the other. So
we took a trip to the Apple store so we could look at Apple's devices.

And of course the size and performance of the regular old MacBooks were really
enticing. Price was higher than I think my wife wanted to pay (she's gone
years on sub $1000 computers and the instant upgrade every couple years when
the old is replaced with the new is a feature to her), but she was seriously
thinking about it.

We spent about 20 minutes sitting at one and my wife trying out MacOS and
really seeing it was effective at handling some of her frustrations with
Windows 10. And over those 20 minutes you could see her start to _really_ take
to it, the nice screen, the tiny size, the responsiveness of the
touchpad...then suddenly she reached up to the screen to make a small
adjustment and scroll a web page she was looking at and the spell was broken
-- no touchscreen. She didn't buy the Macbook.

It turns out, even though she doesn't use it all that often, the fact that it
exists and is expected to work and it didn't was all she needed to know. She
pointed out that all of her other devices: phones, tablets, etc. are all touch
screen, that moment when it _didn 't_ work required her to think twice about
scrolling rather than just doing what she was expecting to do was enough to
make her not want the entire device.

We discussed how many issues there are with Windows 10's usability and all
that and I guess where we left the conversation was that there's no
expectation that Windows will work effortlessly, you go into "using mode"
expecting to have to think through tasks and fidget with things until they're
correct, so there's no spell to be broken, but you know that you can reliable
get things done. And that sets a baseline for her of what she thinks a
computer should be at a minimum and she's willing to pay $500-700 for that.

She admitted that up until she touched the screen the extra $500-700 for the
Apple computer started to seem okay to her because the "using mode" was so
good. But then it didn't work and there was no way to make it work. It was
like swimming through heaven and then sitting on a cloud the wrong way and a
loud buzzer went off _BZZZZ_. The buzzer vaporized that extra value for her
instantly.

It's something I've never considered because my computers fundamentally don't
have touchscreens so I'm trained to expect it. I don't think of my MacOS usage
all that much different than my Windows usage.

Microsoft was correct in enabling touch, but what it really not making the
Surface line interesting is that they swim in a market of machines that more
or less do the same thing (maybe not as _quite_ as well) that are half the
cost. Unless your use-case is particularly sensitive to some specifics of the
performance of this machine, you may as well hit up your local Costco and get
a machine with the same RAM, and 2x the storage as the best configuration here
for 1/3rd the cost.

Sure it'll probably die on you inside of 2 years, but then you buy another
semi-disposable computer then, get all the upgrades from the future and still
be 30% under the cost over 4 years. Windows doesn't provide a usage experience
that demands a price premium and this laptop is missing things that we know
will become commonplace within the expected lifetime of the device.

------
erikb
I have to say, a rating in the 70% rating range for Microsoft Hardware is
actually quite good. Keep working on it! The price is ludacris, but that's
also expected. Honestly with all the recent improvements through new
leadership I wouldn't be surprised if they learn out of a few feedback rounds
and make affordable good quality laptops.

What I'm really surprised though was the guy they put in front of the camera
here. I'm also an ugly guy, but I think one should be self aware enough to put
someone else in front of the camera if that's the case. And wearing such a
t-shirt... wow.

