
On Campuses Far From China, Still Under Beijing’s Watchful Eye - terri_cat
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/04/us/chinese-students-western-campuses-china-influence.html
======
Gustomaximus
And China's government have also bought nearly all Chinese language press in
Australia:

[http://www.smh.com.au/national/chinese-language-
newspapers-i...](http://www.smh.com.au/national/chinese-language-newspapers-
in-australia-beijing-controls-messaging-propaganda-in-
press-20160610-gpg0s3.html)

And actively entering into mainstream media:

[http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-06-03/birtles-australian-
med...](http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-06-03/birtles-australian-media-
playing-into-chinas-grand-strategy/7472870)

~~~
mistermann
Good idea for a startup if it's a near guaranteed buyout.

------
agjacobson
In 2016, China landed a robotic rover on the moon. The NY Times had fairly
extensive coverage. For a solid month, the main article was in the top ten of
forwarded articles, assuring that all nytimes.com readers would repeatedly see
it in a prominent sidebar. This is unusual behavior. NY Times readers are
interested, but easily jaded by space travel. And nothing lasts forever a
month.

Finally, I complained to the nytimes.com ombudsman. Gone in a day! Someone
there must have agreed with me. Click farm behavior.

~~~
metaphor
>> This is unusual behavior.

>> Click farm behavior.

2010 U.S. Census reported[1] 695,000 who self-identify as Chinese in the NY
metro area _alone_...never mind LA, Bay area, Boston, and Seattle...only a few
of the largest, wealthiest, highly educated cities in the nation. Are you
sure?

[1]
[https://www.census.gov/prod/cen2010/briefs/c2010br-11.pdf](https://www.census.gov/prod/cen2010/briefs/c2010br-11.pdf)

~~~
ouid
I think if the nytimes were to actually have responded to agjacobsons claim,
it would have been with an internal investigation, and then any action would
have been taken only after the results of that investigation.

------
woodandsteel
I think the Chinese government is making a huge mistake in the way it is
oppressing freedom of speech at home and broad.

China is now on its fourth political and economic system in the last century
and a half. The present system is an accidental conglomeration of three quite
contradictory philosophies: Confucianism, Marxism, and liberalism. It seems
quite likely at some point it is going to prove unworkable.

At that point China is going to need to really think things out from basic
principles and decide what sort of country it wants to be over the long term.
That will take a great deal of intelligent, independent thinking. Alas, that
is just what Xi Jinping is doing his best to stamp out.

~~~
Animats
_China is now on its fourth political and economic system in the last century
and a half. The present system is an accidental conglomeration of three quite
contradictory philosophies: Confucianism, Marxism, and liberalism. It seems
quite likely at some point it is going to prove unworkable._

The current system is working far better than the last few systems. Until
1985, China had regular famines. Now it has the largest GDP in the world.

~~~
woodandsteel
You're right, China has been doing far better. The question is whether the
present political system, which is to a great extent the product of a series
of accidents, will hold up over the long term.

I think the reason Confucianism was so successful for so long is the same
reason the US system has lasted for centuries, namely both are based on a
coherent, well-thought out political and economic philosophy. China at present
doesn't have anything like that.

As I see it, the problem with Confucianism is it was designed for an agrarian
civilization, whereas today it is an industrial one. The Chinese have never
really thought out what sort of system they need for today's world.

------
surveilmebro
I've noticed similar things at my university [am research faculty; disclaimer:
throwaway account since my usual one identifies me].

Something I've seen often is unfamiliar faces specifically at seminars
presented by academics of Taiwanese origin. My department has a pretty static
set of seminar attendees, so it is quite noticeable when three or four
undergrad-aged people I don't know slip into the back of the room.

------
gogopuppygogo
China is buying influence Globally as the United States and Europe cede soft
power after years of war in the middle east.

While not fantastic for rights of freedom loving people everywhere it is
probably a good thing for Africans in general since they seem to be getting a
lot of economic love from China in exchange for mineral rights.

[http://www.cnn.com/2016/11/03/africa/what-africans-really-
th...](http://www.cnn.com/2016/11/03/africa/what-africans-really-think-of-
china/)

~~~
api
War in the middle east is ruining the West. I don't understand it and I don't
buy the oil explanation. With the absurd cost of these wars we could just buy
the oil, or pay for megaprojects to replace it with gas (even gas to liquids),
nuclear, and renewable power. There seems to be no rational explanation for
the immense gravity well of Middle Eastern war and how it drags in Democrats
and Republicans alike even if they seem initially opposed to it.

I also don't buy the religious or Israel explanation, as neither of these
groups have that much influence. The need to constantly involve ourselves in
the Middle East seems like an imperative that supercedes all other concerns.

I wasn't a fan of Trump and did not vote for him, but I did have a little bit
of hope that at the very least he might be against these wars on "America
first" grounds. Looks like the answer is no as his administration is slowly
taken over by the war party.

It's almost like when presidents are elected they learn something nobody else
knows.

~~~
HarryHirsch
_War in the middle east is ruining the West. I don 't understand it and I
don't buy the oil explanation_

The conspiracy theory is that the war serves to dislodge the population and
increase refugee flows to Europe to destabilize the region economically and
politically. The war in the Middle East is in truth a war against the European
Union, especially Germany. So the story goes.

~~~
api
I haven't heard that one.

I have heard that it is a proxy war against Russia or China, but I'm not sure
that makes sense either. Russia in particular has tons of oil and doesn't need
any from elsewhere.

The only thing that makes a little sense is that it's an end in itself: we
must have war to support the war industry and it's associated jobs and social
programs. It's not just corporations with an interest in this. For many poor
Americans military service is the only way to advance, and military service
signs you up for a much higher tier of social programs than the rest of the
public. In truth America does have socialism. It's just enlistment to grave,
not cradle to grave.

If there were a prolonged period without war, people would start questioning
these expenditures.

~~~
dragonwriter
> Russia in particular has tons of oil and doesn't need any from elsewhere.

Russia seeks to deny it to potential geostrategic rivals. It's not a military
advantage to have oil; it's an advantage to have it and deny it to your
opponent.

Also, Russia may have enough for internal needs and modest exports, but that's
perhaps insufficient for what is antiicoated in the event of a major
conventional war.

~~~
angry_octet
More prosaically, Russia wants it's oil to be worth more. The crash in oil
prices due to the US shale/fracking revolution, and Saudi pricing war to try
to bankrupt the frackers, has smashed Russian oil profits, and caused Putin
heartburn. Destabilizing the middle east raises oil prices, enmeshes the US in
a no-win conflict, and imposes massive costs on EU powers, leading to
xenophobia, rise of far right, and possibly the breakup of the EU. Win, win,
win.

And POTUS likes Putin? What a doofus.

------
paulmd
Israel's been doing this for a long time. Try inviting pro-Palestinian
activists to campus and see what happens.

At the end of the day, everyone has the right to protest, whether that's Black
Lives Matter or the Westboro Baptist Church or any other group. Always
distressing to see it used to further what I see as oppression but there's not
really a whole lot to be done about it. You get your opinions and I get mine.

If people want to miss their kids' graduation, well, kinda sucks to be them I
guess. Not everybody agrees with their graduation speaker, but you choose to
make it political instead of being, you know, _about your kids '
achievements_. I had friends who had George W Bush speak at their graduations,
in 2008 no less.

Suck it up for 15 minutes, nobody is forcing you to march in support of some
college graduation speaker.

~~~
Cyph0n
There's a very interesting investigative documentary by Al Jazeera that shows
how Israel funds and manages the Israeli lobby in the UK. I'll look for the
link and edit this comment.

 _Edit_ : Here is a link to part 1 of the series:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ceCOhdgRBoc](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ceCOhdgRBoc).
You can follow the "Up next" link to watch the other parts; there are 4 parts
in total.

~~~
voodooranger
Not sure that the mouthpiece of the ruling family of Qatar is a reputable
source for anything, much less any topic involving Israel.

~~~
Cyph0n
You _might_ be able to say that about AJ Arabic, but AJ English is an entirely
different entity. You'd actually be surprised how much autonomy AJ English is
given in its reporting.

Also, you could say AJ's reporting on Israel is biased, but why do you dismiss
everything else? AJ has some of the best journalists in the world and
continually pushes the barrier in its reporting worldwide.

~~~
epmaybe
Until you just referred to them as AJ, I had no idea that they were the same
as Al Jazeera. I saw videos on YouTube by AJ and just figured they were some
other entity.

~~~
Cyph0n
Ah yes, I believe that's their US branch. IIRC, the AJ America news channel
didn't do so well, so they pivoted to an online-only presence and rebranded to
AJ+.

You'd be amazed how many branches Al Jazeera has worldwide. Heck, they even
have AJ Balkans[1]!

[1]: [http://balkans.aljazeera.net/](http://balkans.aljazeera.net/)

------
vtange
Reminds me of that one time when some students at UCSD protested against the
university hosting the Dalai Lama for a graduation speech.

[https://qz.com/908922/chinese-students-at-ucsd-are-
evoking-d...](https://qz.com/908922/chinese-students-at-ucsd-are-evoking-
diversity-to-justify-their-opposition-to-the-dalai-lamas-graduation-speech/)

I've always felt that in an increasingly globalized and connected world, we
will start to see increased external influence in America from parties that
are not the Democrats or the Republicans. China is arguably the world's
largest and most powerful political party, and with no domestic competition,
it pretty much has the freedom and ability to overshadow smaller, more divided
political entities.

~~~
bgentry
The UCSD Dalai Lama incident is literally the subject of at least the first
four paragraphs of this article.

~~~
techman9
The leadoff photo is literally outside the main library at UCSD.

~~~
techman9
The second photo is literally the chancellor of UCSD with the Dalai Lama.

------
ReligiousFlames
Let's not forget the market pressures watering-down American Hollywood movies
to not being banned in China.

[http://www.businessinsider.com/hollywood-movies-in-
china-201...](http://www.businessinsider.com/hollywood-movies-in-
china-2016-10)

------
ashwinaj
At some point, someone with gravitas has to come out and say "Money is not
everything!".

In Flint, MI city officials say, "We're not spending money to upgrade water
pipes"

For healthcare, "I don't want to pay for somebody else's healthcare"

For housing "I don't want a low income neighborhood next to mine reducing my
property value"

For race relations "The criminal justice system is just fine"

....And now "Don't offend the Chinese"

This has to stop, money is not everything. At some point we need to do what's
right (and show empathy) before money.

There are lots of things that people don't like, the world doesn't revolve
around them. If the US claims to be a free society and wants to uphold it's
true values, man the eff up and stop catering to almighty dollar. It'll hurt
in the short term, but will bear dividends later.

------
abrowne
This link is a Readability-style view of
[https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/04/us/chinese-students-
weste...](https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/04/us/chinese-students-western-
campuses-china-influence.html)

It looks good, but it's a not good canonical link for sharing.

------
unityByFreedom
Blocking other speakers isn't speech, and it is not protected. _Speaking out_
against an invited speaker _is_ free speech, but if they were successful in
blocking an invitation, that would be grounds for a lawsuit against the
university.

So, condemning China for their attempts to block a speaker isn't so wrong.
They have the right to say what they like. However, when they say "this is
trampling my free speech rights" they're just as wrong as democrats who felt
that way about Milo at Berkeley.

It often takes a lawsuit to demonstrate what is and isn't free speech. There
are some good examples on thefire.org [1] which I learned about during the
Yale Halloween costume debacle.

[1] [https://www.thefire.org/category/cases/free-
speech/](https://www.thefire.org/category/cases/free-speech/)

------
XiAus
[http://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2017-03-25/uts-professor-
preve...](http://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2017-03-25/uts-professor-prevented-
from-boarding-flight-from-china/8386982)

[https://mobile.nytimes.com/2017/04/25/world/asia/china-
xinji...](https://mobile.nytimes.com/2017/04/25/world/asia/china-xinjiang-ban-
muslim-names-muhammad-jihad.html)

[https://www.forbes.com/sites/anderscorr/2017/05/03/china-
bul...](https://www.forbes.com/sites/anderscorr/2017/05/03/china-bullied-
australia-into-ejecting-taiwan-next-time-show-china-the-door)

We are dealing with an increasingly totalitarian state, which bullies other
countries through money. Present Chinese leadership is increasingly dictator
like and has conflicts with every neighbour. China is not good news for our
future. Western countries beauty is the free speech culture. You have to
experience the suffocation of living in China, the fear of retribution and no
basic han rights accorded to you. Trade with China should be shunned, hope was
that trade would make the society open but instead it has made them even more
brutalistic on the citizens.

------
narrator
I am sure they will be welcomed alongside third wave feminism and radical
islamic groups to the great coallition of the outraged.

------
kenshinoor
Of cause the students will protest Dalai Lama.

China has a database for a list of certified overseas universities. There was
a school removed from that list for allowing Dalai to talk about Tibet in his
visit.

:(

------
msie
I just don't think all that effort is going to make a difference in anti-China
sentiment in the US or anywhere else.

~~~
ajmurmann
It might make it worse. I actually have many things I love about China and
wouldn't mind moving there for a few years if it wasn't for this oppressive
stuff.

~~~
panzer_wyrm
If you don't involve yourself deep into politics the most oppressive thing
there is that you have to eat with chopsticks.

It is hardly totalitarian dystopia. As long as you are there to make money and
help the chineese do so you are fine.

------
princetontiger
China doesn't represent Anglo Saxon culture or ideals. Canada, NZ, Australia,
the UK and the US are the reason we have freedom of everything.

------
sjg007
I've met Chinese grad students who said the students at Tianamen square were
terrorists.

~~~
gaius
A friend of mine played hosts to some Chinese students in London, as there was
one happening he took them along to a demonstration that was happening that
day. They were utterly baffled, he said, they asked why anyone would want to
protest against the government?

------
LightskinKanye
I don't know how I feel about posting outline.com articles that are from the
NYTimes.com without their consent...

Seems pretty unethical since I don't have a subscription and would like to
support them somehow.

------
throwanem
Globalism can be a real bastard.

------
mwnivek
Link to source, which I could not find in the posted link:
[https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/04/us/chinese-students-
weste...](https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/04/us/chinese-students-western-
campuses-china-influence.html)

~~~
metaphor
It's literally at the top, plain as day, in a hyperlink labeled _SOURCE_ ,
immediately to the right of a label denoting that it came from NYT.

------
rubatuga
Seems like a war of culture vs. culture, who will win?

~~~
kevin_thibedeau
The one with the money.

~~~
rch
More specifically, the reserve currency.

~~~
hyperdunc
The culture with the reserve currency has lost its mojo and is confused about
its values. It that continues there's no way it's going to win.

------
gragas
It's interesting how many people instantly try to twist this into an anti-
Israel thread.

~~~
erikpukinskis
I'm not sure what you're implying when you say it's "interesting".

If you have a problem with the equation of anti-Tibet political intervention
by China and anti-Palestine intervention by Israel then state your case.

~~~
dragonwriter
> If you have a problem with the equation of anti-Tibet political intervention
> by China and anti-Palestine intervention by Israel then state your case.

As much as Israel has colonized parts of Palestine by way of settlements, its
nothing like the Chinese annexation and colonization of Tibet.

~~~
echaozh
What about the white annexation and colonization of America?

~~~
erikpukinskis
Equally bullshit. I can admit Israel is better than colonial America. Kind of
a low bar though.

I don't think I'd have a problem with people advocating for settlements if
they acknowledged they were colonizing native people in order to eradicate
their culture.

At least be honest about it. People act like Israel is some sort of liberal
state.

------
unityByFreedom
For better or for worse, China's interpretation of freedom seems to match
their culture.

Culturally, in much of Asia, criticizing someone else is more offensive than
in the West. "Saving face" seems more prevalent to me in Eastern offices and
families than Western institutions.

So, punishing someone for offensive speech in China probably feels normal to a
lot of people. More people there avoid pointing out each other's mistakes, and
talk miles around problems to avoid that.

I think that results in a situation where people spend effort trying to win
certain battles that people in the West would let go.

------
it_learnses
I wish we could somehow curb Chinese immigration and trade here in Canada. Our
government seems to be bending over backwards for them.

~~~
msie
I wish we could somehow make people less ignorant and more tolerant here in
Canada. People are always blaming immigrants for their problems.

~~~
HarryHirsch
Rising housing prices in Vancouver are a valid concern. I don't understand why
the grandparent is downvoted. You don't combat racism by not recognizing valid
grievances.

~~~
it_learnses
how am I being racist? We have rich chinese immigrants from mainland literally
buying their permanent residency and driving up the price of housing here. We
have the chinese government pushing us around and our weak government isn't
standing up for Canadians. I think it's a valid concern.

~~~
msie
Hmmm, it's just a hunch I have given how you don't want any more Chinese
immigration? And trade with them is automatically bad?

\- What's wrong with immigrants buying their residency? This happens all the
time. At least you know they won't be a 'burden on the system' as some people
would say. What the rich Chinese immigrants were doing was legal until some
people didn't like seeing more Chinese people driving around town in their
expensive cars and "flaunting" their wealth. And it's definitely not like half
the town is made of rich Chinese immigrants as one HN poster put it. The last
census puts Vancouver at about 18.7% Chinese (which includes over a hundred
years of Chinese immigrants who helped build/shape the city).

\- Your assumption that rich Chinese immigrants are responsible for driving up
the price of housing is ignorant at best, racist at worst. One report says
that 5% of buyers are foreign. They are buying the high-end properties which
means the majority of properties are being fought over by Canadians. Vancouver
is the only major city on the west coast of Canada and many people want to
live here. Plus let's not ignore the many Canadians who are involved in
speculation too. Did you know that mortgage debt (of Canadians) has been on
the rise? The issue is complex and can't be boiled down to "the Chinese caused
it".

\- The Canadian government eliminated the investor immigrant program, is that
bending over backwards? How about the creation of the 15% foreign buyer's tax?

\- What you see as Canada being "pushed around" is trying to maintain good
relations with its trading partners (one of which is China) which is a
delicate dance. Do you see how the Canadian government handles the US?
Carefully.

\- I don't know why I waste my time writing this because people are more
swayed by the sight of some Chinese person driving an expensive Audi. As I
said, the Chinese govt is wasting their time and money too.

~~~
panzer_wyrm
First - it is not racism if the gp would react disapprovingly to other nations
also buying. If Russia and China places were changed, I have a feeling that he
would complain about those pesky Russians buying in Vancouver.

Second - for a lot of people obtaining citizenship and residence permit in any
other way than by being born or married into it is not acceptable. And
outright buying it is disgusting.

Five percent in market with inflexible demand and severely constraint supply
is huge.

And lets not start on the money origins which could be very shady. Do you want
people with shady money in country? And why?

Disliking the side effects of immigration is not in anyway racist.

------
maverick_iceman
I see this as an outgrowth of left-liberal student bodies clamping down on
conservative speech on college campuses. If leftist students can block Ann
Coulter from speaking then why can't Chinese students block the Dalai Lama?
Every speech is guaranteed to offend someone and that's verboten in today's
campuses. As a libertarian, I was always worried about this and it was a main
reason why I opposed social justice warriors. Sadly, our fear has come to pass
and censorship now reigns in universities. In the future, children's
fairytales will be the only safe topic to discuss.

~~~
bhouston
It has nothing really do to with that. Chinese government doesn't care about
left wing American students and what they think. It is just doing what it can
to promote its message, like it has been doing for decades.

~~~
nyolfen
the chinese government may not care what left wing american students have to
say, but if those students establish a precedent that speakers deemed
'offensive' can be shut down solely for that reason, then the groundwork is
laid for parties who _aren't_ left wing students to abuse that precedent as
well. this is why we must defend the principle of free speech even when we
disagree with the speakers.

------
glubGlub
Good for them. What a waste of time. China can't even tell that there really
wasn't any anti-China anything at college campuses to begin with.

It's like me going to a bakery and making sure they aren't putting hand
grenades in the ovens, and posting conspicuous warning signs about the dangers
hand grenade shrapnel poses to croissants and the people who eat them.

What is it with totalitarian states, and this thing where they don't get that
it's not about them?

I hope they keep it up. If this is their idea of effective sentiment
manipulation, fucking awesome. I'd love to see what happens if we turn up the
volume on this kind of ridiculously inept play at influence.

I'd imagine it starts to look not unlike sudden emails from Nigerian princes,
thoughtfully explaining their ardent desires to share their clutch of
investments with me, if only I'd helpfully provide the bank account to wire
all that fabulous money into.

------
dang
Url changed from [https://outline.com/RFwceY](https://outline.com/RFwceY),
which copies this, which violates the HN guidelines, which ask submitters to
submit original sources.

[https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html](https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html)

------
ganfortran
TIL that pro China talk is against freedom of speech, how ironic.

~~~
hiddencost
"freedom of speech" refers to specific legal principles related to what kinds
of reprisals the US federal government can take against you for speech (fun
fact: there are types of speech which can send you to jail [0]). It has
nothing to do with what kinds of actions society can take against you, or
private citizens, or private institutions.

This is an article about astroturfing.

[0]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_free_speech_exce...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_free_speech_exceptions)

~~~
gruez
>"freedom of speech" refers to specific legal principles related to what kinds
of reprisals the US federal government can take against you for speech

Legally yes, but colloquially it includes non-governmental actions[1].

[1]
[https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/freedom_of_speech](https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/freedom_of_speech)

