
U.S. Soldiers Told to Ignore Afghan Allies’ Abuse of Boys - koevet
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/21/world/asia/us-soldiers-told-to-ignore-afghan-allies-abuse-of-boys.html
======
afarrell
This has been known since 2009. This US Army Human Terrain Team report is
interesting reading, if you find strange & violent forms of misogyny and
pederasty morbidly fascinating [https://info.publicintelligence.net/HTT-
PashtunSexuality.pdf](https://info.publicintelligence.net/HTT-
PashtunSexuality.pdf)

""" Another example of cultural misinterpretations of Islamic tenants, bent to
support homosexuality over heterosexuality, comes from a U.S. Army medic
completing a year-long tour in a rural area of Kandahar province.8 She and her
male colleagues were approached by a local gentleman seeking advice on how his
wife could become pregnant. When it was explained to him what was necessary,
he reacted with disgust and asked “How could one feel desire to be with a
woman, who God has made unclean, when one could be with a man, who is clean?
Surely this must be wrong.” """

~~~
coldtea
> _She and her male colleagues were approached by a local gentleman seeking
> advice on how his wife could become pregnant. When it was explained to him
> what was necessary, he reacted with disgust and asked “How could one feel
> desire to be with a woman, who God has made unclean, when one could be with
> a man, who is clean? Surely this must be wrong._

The dialogue sounds fishy and constructed to me. Local "gentlemen" surely know
the procedure to "get pregnant" and have managed to procreate just as good as
anywhere else in the world in the last 30 centuries without asking western
medics...

~~~
eru
Oh, hang out on reddit.com/r/sex or /r/relationship, and you'll see that
people come up with the strangest questions.

(Might still be fake, of course. But I wouldn't bet on it.)

~~~
okasaki
There's a lot of fake posts on r/sex and r/relationships too.

------
stonetomb
Young boys brought to police outposts were quite common - it was a disgusting
practice, though in the parade of despicable acts by all sides you became
numb. Most of my memories are hazy at best, but at times something I see,
hear, or smell finds it's way through the fog and I become lost reliving
moments.

Thanks for posting, it's good to reflect from time to time.

------
sigma2015
On HN regularly posters demand the US not to impose their values upon other
"cultures".

Then again - I don't believe this is part of Afgan culture at all anyway. I
think that happens when survival bias due to war and destruction over a long
period of time leads to very fucked up people climbing to the top of a
society.

At the end of the day - or maybe rather at its start - the US is partly
responsible for Afghanistan being trapped in a downward spiral.

Have a look at this (randomly chosen gallery) about Afghanistan in its 60s - I
don't think _that_ culture would be very fond of rapists.

[http://www.upworthy.com/afghanistan-in-the-1960s-prepare-
to-...](http://www.upworthy.com/afghanistan-in-the-1960s-prepare-to-be-very-
very-surprised)

~~~
etrevino
Disgustingly, it is a longstanding cultural thing in Afghanistan.

[http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/dancingboys/](http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/dancingboys/)

Don't let the modernity of 1960s Kabul fool you. I have a teenage student sold
into sex slavery in the US. The weak (or in her case, homeless and orphaned)
are targeted no matter what the culture. For more moral turpitude, check out
Rotherham.

* I work with folks from the US's Office on Trafficking in Persons. It's one of the few programs run by the Department of Health and Human Services that has broad bipartisan support.

[http://www.acf.hhs.gov/programs/endtrafficking](http://www.acf.hhs.gov/programs/endtrafficking)

~~~
sigma2015
Are you aware of the political and societal implications and surroundings of
f.x. the cases around Jimmy Savile or Marc Dutroux?

Maybe you should watch some documentaries about that to realize that _this_ is
by the same token part of _any_ "culture".

~~~
etrevino
Why the hostility? You said that you didn't think this was a longstanding part
of Afghani culture and I brought up a documentary _that was linked in the
article you posted_ saying that, in fact, pederasty was a longstanding part of
Afghani culture. There are plenty of people _in Afghanistan_ who oppose it,
but that doesn't mean it's not an accepted part of the culture.

As for "culture", we may be better describing this as a societal failure in
the case of Rotherham. Note, I mentioned Rotherham, not Jimmy Savile. The
sexual exploitation in Rotherham was disgusting and was allowed to happen for
years. It was a failure on the part of the predators (obviously) and a failure
on the part of the local governmental structure who largely knew about it.

In the Americas we have cases like my student's. Human trafficking is a big
big thing and that it goes on isn't because of isolated individuals but
because of large organizations of procurers, pimps, money launderers, etc.,
who are able to work because so many folks choose to turn a blind eye to it.

Let's be clear, here, I'm not saying that human trafficking or pederasty has
widespread acceptance in the West. I am saying that there are cultural (or
subcultural, whatever) groups for whom it is acceptable.

Modernity ≠ moral

------
drivingmenuts
Which sort of begs the question: why the hell are we over there, now?

Originally, I guess we went to hunt OBL and punish the Taliban, but then there
was the whole oil question (they have it, we want it, etc.).

But we failed to stop the Taliban (Mission Definitely Not Completed), which
just shows we failed to learn _anything_ from the Russians and/or the British.

So, why are we there now? Anyone? Bueller?

Sure, we can burn billions of dollars per year doing whatever the hell it is
we're doing over there now, but, as history shows, it won't really change
anything.

Freedom and democracy is a great thing, but if they're not interested in it
_at all_ , then maybe we should just stop trying to cram it down their
throats.

~~~
tsotha
>But we failed to stop the Taliban (Mission Definitely Not Completed), which
just shows we failed to learn anything from the Russians and/or the British.

That's why the Taliban are comfortably ensconced in Kabul, right?

>So, why are we there now? Anyone? Bueller?

We've withdrawn all but a token force. There are less than ten thousand US
troops in Afghanistan.

~~~
tim333
>failed to learn anything from the Russians

I chatted to some exiles from Afganistan and they thought the Russian period
was the best in terms of economic growth, human rights and the like. It only
really ended with the US arming people like Bin Laden to overthrow them and
didn't that work out well.

------
lawnchair_larry
"The one American service member who was punished in the investigation that
followed was Major Brezler, who had sent the email warning about Mr. Jan, his
lawyers said. In one of Major Brezler’s hearings, Marine Corps lawyers warned
that information about the police commander’s penchant for abusing boys might
be classified."

We seem to have a classification problem.

------
cup
The sad irony here is that the Taliban gained a lot of public support for
abolishing this practice, and with the international communities diminishing
engagement, the Taliban is set to return and gain more grass rooots support
for putting this practice down again.

~~~
crpatino
Has to make you wonder if the Taliban have not been the "good guys" from the
very beginning?

~~~
garrettgrimsley
Or do people not neatly fit into little boxes marked "Good" and "Bad?"

~~~
newjersey
The Taliban allegedly destroyed poppy fields.

The Taliban also destroyed Buddhist monuments.

You're right. People do not fit into boxes of good and evil.

------
ZeroGravitas
Second time in a few days I get to recommend Adam Curtis' documentary Bitter
Lake (available on iPlayer in the UK).

One of its themes is that simplistic tales of good versus evil are an issue
with the recent US (with their UK side-kick) wars.

It touches on this issue, though without specific talk of sexual abuse. It
does suggest that the "police" were basically just a bunch of warlord militias
and so when the west turned up and started helping them, they were immediately
seen as part of the problem not the solution by many of the locals.

------
Shivetya
From the good old days of you are going overseas... when not in the field the
first rules are , don't stare and shut up. As in, be careful where your about
where your eyes are and do not comment without permission.

Simple rules that work for travelers too. There are many cultural issues that
don't coincide with Western values and its best to get over any idea our views
are superior because you cannot survive with that attitude while in another
country.

------
theworstshill
Anybody else here remembers the picture of Reagan with the Taliban and a
heading along the lines of "These gentlemen are the moral equivalent of our
founding fathers". I am not surprised in the slightest.

~~~
ZeroGravitas
I'm not sure when the Taliban officially started, but it's probably a bit
after Reagan was involved in funding the Mujahadeen.

Plus, the individuals mentioned in the linked story are actually warlords that
are fighting against the Taliban, in conjunction with the US forces. This is
complicated further by the fact that I think many of the warlords switch sides
between Taliban, US & freelance depending on whatever seems to be the most
lucrative at any point in time.

------
harry8
The key to this is what you think about the morality of one's own countries
soldiers ignoring and so tacitly approving the rape of children.

Structurally what do you think of the idea that soldiers were _ordered_ to do
so.

Rape of children is outside the limits of what I will tolerate from any
culture.

First things first, the idea that those of my own culture and country condone
the rape of children for political ends in a foreign country is something for
which they should be facing charges and entitled to proper legal defence in my
culture and my country.

------
6d0debc071
Things might have gone better if they'd been told to ignore drugs instead.

~~~
6d0debc071
I honestly don't understand why this was down-voted. The planting of opium
formed a major part of the Afghan economy - roughly 50%[1] of their GDP in
fact - and outlawing parts of that economy is both expensive - the US spent
$7.6 billion trying to stop it[2] - and likely to alienate the people who you
rely on for intelligence.

That doesn't mean that the intelligence will stop coming, it's worse than
that. It means it won't be reliable. The trouble, when you get into this sort
of application of force, is that you end up being nothing more than an
enforcer for the local grievances. They'll tell you where something is when
they want you to squash it - and in the mean time, because it is illegal,
people profit off it who you don't want walking around with a lot of money.
No-one trusts you, because your behaviour pattern appears unreliable unless
you know who's talking to who, you don't manage to stamp the things out, and
you inflict a lot of grievances.

The smart move is not to try to exact control on an issue when it is not
practically attainable. The U.S. hasn't been able to control drugs within its
own borders, where they all speak the same language and there aren't the same
degree of major tribal issues, let alone in Afghanistan. And it seems to me to
have had the same sorts of disastrous outcomes there as it has in the U.S.

\----

1\. [http://www.cato.org/publications/foreign-policy-
briefing/how...](http://www.cato.org/publications/foreign-policy-briefing/how-
drug-war-afghanistan-undermines-americas-war-terror)

[http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/16/world/asia/16drugs.html?pa...](http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/16/world/asia/16drugs.html?pagewanted=2)

2.[http://edition.cnn.com/2014/10/21/world/asia/afghanistan-
dru...](http://edition.cnn.com/2014/10/21/world/asia/afghanistan-drug-
war/index.html)

~~~
rjsw
We also have a worldwide shortage of opiate painkillers for use in surgery, it
could have been a lot better to just buy the opium from the growers.

------
gadders
This is the sort of evil that Moral Relativism gets you.

------
adultSwim
This is a good headline. I wish we could get back to informative page titles.

Sorry itself is sickening.

------
sidcool
It's a sad world we live in. Looks like countries who ban stuff the most, have
the most offenders...

~~~
simonh
Buses in London used to have signs saying 'No Spitting'. They don't have them
anymore, but not because it's now OK to spit on buses. You don't make rules
against things that nobody does.

~~~
xiaoma
I suspect that will change as tourism becomes more widespread.

------
erikb
"Afghan soldiers told to ignore American Allies' eating pork"

Well, reading this you might think "how can that compare to raping boys? Boys
are human beings and human beings have rights, just like you and me? But at
the same time a Muslim may consider refusing to eat pork a law by god which is
way higher than anything considering humans.

The point I try to make is this: In an intercultural environment you need to
accept the other one doing things you consider immoral. Otherwise there will
be no cooperation at all. You must not judge. We all know that and when we
talk about it we think about clothes, how to say hello, and kinds of food. But
if you really want to achieve important cooperation you also need to consider
points like this. That's the tough part, accepting these things that are
really undiscussable in your culture. In an intercultural environment they
should be.

Now please, don't just downvote. Write a comment. Thanks.

~~~
steven2012
Your analogy is utterly wrong and broken, because you are mistakenly calling
raping young boys "cultural". It's not cultural, and it's not something that
happens across all of Afghanistan, otherwise all Afghani males could be
considered pedophiles. It's a select group of pedophiles that have attained
military status such that they won't be prosecuted for their crimes. That's
not culture, that's corruption.

It's the same thing with the Catholic Church. Widescale sexual abuse of young
boys by priests occurred, but not because it's a cultural aspect of the
Catholic Church. It's a disgusting corruption that somehow manifested itself
by pedophiles that infiltrated the Church and abused their positions, just
like in Afghanistan. So there's no lens of morality to view things with. What
happened in both cases is that it's a crime that has grown due to widespread
corruption. I'm sure you will find that a lot of money was stolen by the
Afghani military as well, but theft is not cultural as well, that's corruption
and abuse.

The same thing happened in the British government where a widespread sexual
abuse ring was discovered recently. Is that also "cultural" aspect of British
people? No, it's corruption and a heinous crime.

~~~
sigma2015
The assumption that only pedophiles rape very young children is wrong - there
is a "phenomenon" of substituting preferrred sex partners with what is
_available_.

That's why there is a rape problem in prisons which is certainly not caused by
gays ...

------
eleitl
Unfortunately, I've come to see such articles with immediate suspicion.

~~~
devopsproject
[https://youtu.be/Ja5Q75hf6QI?t=3124](https://youtu.be/Ja5Q75hf6QI?t=3124)

the whole video is worth a watch

