
Meditation: Why Bother? - PieSquared
http://www.vipassana.com/meditation/mindfulness_in_plain_english_3.php
======
mkn
_Go to a party. Listen to the laughter, that brittle-tongued voice that says
fun on the surface and fear underneath. Feel the tension, feel the pressure.
Nobody really relaxes. They are faking it....These are not people who are at
peace with themselves. Watch the news on TV. Listen to the lyrics in popular
songs. You find the same theme repeated over and over in variations. Jealousy,
suffering, discontent and stress._

And here we have the crux of it. This is Nietasche's _ressentiment_ , the
origin of moral feeling. Observe the hatred he has for the successful and the
contented. They have won at the game of life, in that they fit in, are
laughing, are enjoying themselves, yet the author feels that there _must_ be
something wrong with them. They must deserve his scorn because he has not
achieved the ease and confidence that they show. It must be a chimera.
Meditation sets the author apart. He has stamina. He has determination. He has
'grit', and for this he is despised by the masses. Bullshit.

And isn't it suspicious that meditation _always_ leads to a higher place?
Isn't it at least possible that meditation might merely unveil yourself to
you? Or maybe, more laughably, help you to obscure yourself from you? Or, even
more laughably, to obscure the nature of reality from yourself so that you can
continue to believe that you have the high ground in some realm of ideas,
despite your losses and discontentment in the observable universe? It strikes
me as suspicious that someone with this obvious contempt for the masses could
take hold of a meditative practice and use it objectively, to discover the
true nature of anything, let alone any inner 'true' happiness.

We have only the observed facts that the author has provided, minus his
'insights' into the 'true nature' of these observances or the 'ulterior
motives' of the actors he observes.

Zarathustra's advice would be well taken by him, and all who find this article
compelling: "Always love your neighbor as yourselves -- but first be such as
_love themselves_ "

~~~
debt
Whoa, Whoa, Whoa. Have you been to a party recently? I mean, a serious beer-
pong-playing, beer-bonging, naked-ignorant-frat-boy flailing party? They're
terrible. Everyone is clearly pretending to have a good time. Everything
smells like beer or puke.

Also, have you watched the news lately? I don't think that needs elaborating.

Popular music is exactly as the author describes. No one could possibly be
content listening to...wait, they're piping that shit in through the
loudspeaker at the baseball game now? Fuck.

The fact that you accept the possibility that those people at the party and
stadiums are masking their misery with beer and baseball says more about
yourself than it does about the author. You seem to agree, but don't want to
come right out and say it.

Starting a company is not socially acceptable. It seems 99% of startups fail.
I could easily fit in and survive by getting a job at some major software
company, get benefits, paid vacations, etc. Actually, I did and it leaves me
with the feeling that the author describes.

I believe the author's "ressentiment" is born out of the belief that the
drones at parties and baseball games have somehow given in and given up rather
then getting what they actually wanted. Many people, yourself included, mask
their personalities with a phony sense of optimism and say, "Hey, mang, leave
my friend alone. He may be happy here at this baseball game, getting drunk and
probably later falling asleep in your garden."

Also, the author implies that contentment can not be had from the material
universe. Again, this may be reason enough to detest the phony atmosphere that
permeates the environment of every antisocial activity.

In a way, we have to deal with the drones' innane bullshit, because they can't
work out properly what they want. Racism, sexism, nationalism, extremism, isms
galore. They'll grab any new idea that works rather than what works the best.

I'm a drone, just a lesser one. Proudly so. I'm not going to get worked up and
punch a guy in the face because he dissed the Sox. This shit happens at every
game. Every single one.

If meditation slows these people down and forces them to ask things like, "Why
am I like this?" or "Is there another way?", then I'm willing to take my
chances.

~~~
mkn
_The fact that you accept the possibility that those people at the party and
stadiums are masking their misery with beer and baseball says more about
yourself than it does about the author. You seem to agree, but don't want to
come right out and say it._

To what part of my comment could you possibly be referring? Let me state that
this is a direct invitation for you to find in my previous comment the line or
lines that supports your statement about my purported beliefs about 'those
people at the party' and that I 'agree but don't want to...say it.' Put up or
shut up.

 _Many people,_ yourself included _, mask their personalities with a phony
sense of optimism and say, "Hey, mang, leave my friend alone. He may be happy
here at this baseball game, getting drunk and probably later falling asleep in
your garden."_

You clearly have no idea what you are talking about. First, "Have you been to
a...naked-ignorant-frat-boy flailing party?", implying that I haven't, or at
least haven't perceived the true nature of it, and then, "Hey, mang, " & etc.,
seemingly implying that this is my lifestyle and that I'm defending it. It's
telling that your _hypothetical_ example individual not only is not
'happy...at [the] baseball game,' but that, as proof he is not, he later
'[falls] asleep in your garden.' Again, point to the part of my comment that
supports your allegation of a 'phony optimism' or retract your insipid
allegation.

It's also telling that the author's non-specific use of the word 'party'
induces, in you, the concept of the most objectionable kind of party you can
think of, one in which the participants are engaging in some kind of blatant
mass stupidity, by your judgment. Why would one compare oneself to this
particular set? Why choose who one believes are _the worst of the worst_ to
which to compare oneself, _unless one wants to aggrandize oneself_? That is
the root of the suspicion. Why not say, "Go to the boardroom of Google. Feel
the tension. Everybody is faking it."? Indeed, some do, but only those who
wish to waylay the corporate as inherently evil. And they do so by making the
corporate out to be _the opposite of themselves_ , who are by definition,
'good'.

 _Starting a company is not socially acceptable._

I want whatever you're smoking.

 _I believe the author's "ressentiment" is born out of the belief that the
drones at parties and baseball games have somehow given in and given up rather
then getting what they actually wanted._

Look at the pejoratives: 'drones', 'given in', 'given up', 'parties' as frat-
boy free-for-alls, 'baseball games' as a collection of drones, and 'rather
then [sic] getting what they actually wanted'. I submit, based on this portion
of your comment, that _you_ are so accustomed to committing Nitezsche's
ressentiment that _you_ cannot even see when you are doing it, nor the sheer
number of spurious value-judgments that you must make in order to support it.

It may help you to understand that ressentiment is not just dislike for a
class that has bested you, but the transmutation of that dislike into a moral
statement, the statement that "They are wrong for winning, and all of the
qualities that make them the winners are evil, and all of the qualities that
make me the loser are virtues."

 _Actually, [having a software job with benefits and vacations] leaves me with
the feeling that the author describes._

I leave it to you whether this feeling is a function of your psychology or a
function of the lifestyle in which you were engaged. Was it subjective, rooted
in you, or objective, rooted in the circumstance?

~~~
debt
First of all, starting a company is not socially acceptable. Having less money
cuts out a lot of my options. It means I can't go out as much with friends.
After enough times of, "Sorry, guys, can't go out, I have to work.", it
becomes very socially unacceptable.

Secondly, and most importantly, I do not view a free-for-all frat
party/charade/parade as winning. They aren't smart. They aren't funny or
clever. They are definitely NOT winning. I am definitely not jealous or
envious of their situations. Maybe a bit jealous that they get all the girls,
but I can look past that once I see one of them break a bathroom mirror over
their head.

A party at Google is a party of people who "got it". They went after what they
wanted and got it. That simple. It's not at all a party made up of mindless
drones that the author of this article is talking about. I wouldn't even call
a party of Googlers a party unless they were doing body shots off Sergey and
singing Sweet Caroline at the top of their lungs. But then what? They aren't
mindless drones, but they can still party hard. At this point, the author
would say, "Perhaps, while they seem to believe that they have gotten what
they wanted, they actually have not. Look how they party. They seem to want
more."

If what these party drones are doing is "winning", then they are certainly in
the wrong in my mind. Ah, it has just hit me. I know what "ressentiment" is.

It's seeing amazing potential going to waste and "transmuting" my disgust for
that into a moral imperative to actively prevent that from happening to myself
or anyone I care about.

You're right I have ressentiment, but it's for everyone who's potential is
going to waste. It's for all the smart people who got caught with a few grams
of pot, or some smart girl who only married the guy because he got her
pregnant or the philosophy major who spends more time and energy
procrastinating, writing HN comments, then he does finishing his thesis or
socializing or socializing about his thesis or socializing at frat parties
while expounding on his great ideas in his thesis.

I would think the latter being the most beneficial at least so I have someone
to talk to at those damn parties.

EDIT: All I'm saying, is that there should be nothing wrong with believing
television is terrible, pop music sucks, and belligerent drunks are losers.
All are a waste of time, money, resources better not spent at all. If
Nietzsche says I have "ressentiment", then fuck it, that's what I have. If
meditation furthers my distance from those things, then that's what I'll do.

~~~
menloparkbum
_A party at Google is a party of people who "got it". ... It's not at all a
party made up of mindless drones_

Obviously you have not been to a Google party recently...

~~~
gaius
LOL! Yeah, Google is like 20,000 people now, and most of them joined when
Google was a "safe" career choice. A Google party is probably much like an IBM
or HP party now.

------
marvin
Meditation doesn't solve any real problems; at least not more than any other
religious belief. It seems really strange to me that nerds frown on certain
religious beliefs while lauding others. We're in the territory of the
unmeasurable here, so I'd say that tolerance goes first.

But a lot of smart people bash the belief in God when it presumably gives
meaning to depressed people, or helps drug addicts and criminals get their
lives in order. The same smart people praise psychotherapy or meditation for
the same results. It's hypocritical. I'm a tolerant guy and as long as other
people's beliefs don't get in my way, I accept them. But when rationality and
reason are your most important virtues, it's contradictory to support a schism
like this one.

These questions are always questions of the current immeasurable, unprovable
part of human nature, and should be treated as such. You can't use the words
meditation and scientific in the same sentence.

~~~
zimbabwe
Do you know anything about meditation? While its origins are religious, it's a
secular practice that's about learning to stabilize your mind and develop
inner balance.

It's only religion if you think that you're developing a communion with God
through meditation. If you meditate to commune with yourself, then it's
entirely sensible to laud meditation while bashing religion. Meditation is not
superstition.

~~~
radu_floricica
Meditation is not superstition, true, but one should still be aware. It does
tend to attract the same people. I'm an atheist meditating, and occasionally I
have to grit my teeth.

------
papaf
I do vipassana but with a different organisation (www.dhamma.org). For the
last five years I have meditated for the recommended 2 hours a day (mostly
every day). Its a big time commitment and I often wonder how different things
would be for me if I'd taken up painting or playing a musical instrument
instead.

However, I don't regret the time I've spent meditating as (knowing me) I would
have squandered those hours anyway. Its often easy to forget the benefits of
meditation and I sometimes question whether I should carry on. However, in
common with others I have talked to, when I stop for a few days all the old
thought patterns come back such as anger, fear, arrogance, sadness and desire
for material gain. I still feel these things when I've been meditating but
they don't control my actions and distort my thoughts nearly as much. Yeah, if
I stop meditating it becomes obvious I should start again as soon as possible.

Meditation isn't for everybody. Only a small proportion of Westerners who try
it actually carry on practicing long term. However, I'd recommend anyone thats
curious to give meditation a go.

~~~
koudelka
The feelings you state above come back, and you view them as a problem,
because you've not really made an attempt to understand them. When you view
them as problems, and not ephemeral conditions, they become problems.

"Whatever it is, sit with it."

------
sengan
Meditation changes your brain structure which changes your experience. This is
in the domain of science, not faith: it is measurable.

[http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/05/090512134655.ht...](http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/05/090512134655.htm)

At the beginning it reduces the impetus of your emotions. Your emotions do not
change, but you do not feel you have to follow them. The biological change is
more inhibitor neurones from your neocortex to your hyppocampus.

[http://www.cogsci.uni-
osnabrueck.de/%7eleggert/lucas_eggert_...](http://www.cogsci.uni-
osnabrueck.de/%7eleggert/lucas_eggert_bachelor_thesis.pdf)

Further down the path, it changes the left/right balance of your brain
functioning leading to a more pleasant and holistic experience. This can also
occur with a left-brain stroke, but you lose brain functionality that you
don't with meditation. Eg:

[http://www.npr.org/templates/player/mediaPlayer.html?action=...](http://www.npr.org/templates/player/mediaPlayer.html?action=1&t=1&islist=false&id=104154403&m=104184856)

While there is a lot of superstition, it is foolish to assume that all pre-
scientific experience is invalid. Just like many people with high school
science believe in a "scientific religion" (i.e. it doesn't fit with theory
therefore is wrong, rather than doesn't it fit with theory? hmm. how
interesting!), many Buddhists believe in a Buddhist religion. That does not
mean that there is no valuable knowledge gained by the best practitioners of
Science or of meditation.

------
plinkplonk
"The feelings you state above come back, and you view them as a problem,
because you've not really made an attempt to understand them. When you view
them as problems, and not ephemeral conditions, they become problems."

very close to a religious discussion imo. Without acepting the underlying
dogma of the mystical school (vipassana in this case), the above sentence
makes no sense at all. By this logic two Christians arguing whether music is
allowable in Christian worship and its impact on a worshippers mind is valid
discussion on HN.

People making unverifiable claims about inner states and so on. What's next -
a discussion of the subjective effects of various recreational drugs on the
human mind?

I suspect the subjective descriptions of mental states would be very similar
"I got high and I observed my thoughts arising blah" "No you didn't do it
right .. you should have ... "

"I been conflicted about whether to pursue Buddhism. "

Ok. Great for you.

I would have preferred it if this pseudo religious stuff were left off HN. I
am very surprised that this made the front page of HN, leave alone such a high
place in the rankings.(I tried to phrase this carefully so as not to violate
any HN guidelines).

------
nazgulnarsil
cutting TV is more important than meditation. If meditation forces you to
watch less TV then that's probably where some of the "benefits" are coming
from.

~~~
radu_floricica
Dropping TV is the single most life-changing thing any modern person can do.
Mostly because it gets you to wander "what do I want to do tonight?"

~~~
menloparkbum
_Dropping TV is the single most life-changing thing any modern person can do._

I used to think that. Then I did it, and it was true for about 8 years. Now
the internet has all the TV I'd ever want to watch in an immediately
summonable window right next to all the other info-crack which had taken the
place of television. I'm thinking dropping the internet is going to be the
next big life changer. I went on a laptop free vacation a couple months ago
and felt like I had 6-8 hours of extra time per day. Watching a couple TV
shows in the hotel room at night was actually kind of relaxing and quaint,
like I'd taken a time machine back to a simpler age...

~~~
zenlinux
Same here - I waste a lot of time with the internet, including watching some
TV online.

It's said that alcoholics and drug addicts have a clear path to getting clean
- completely cut out the addiction from your life. But people who have
problems over-eating can't make as simple a change to solve their problem.
After all, you need to eat to live.

The internet is kind of like that for me - it's something I need to do work on
and learn from, but is something I frequently over-use.

------
utsmokingaces
I been conflicted about whether to pursue Buddhism. Its ideals of not wanting
too much makes a lot of sense. However, civilization thrives and life
expectancy increase because we work towards our ambitions and wants.

Another reason is that I admire Zen Buddhist practitioners Steve Jobs and Phil
Jackson (zen master). Ironically, take Steve Jobs for example, his demanding
and often angry management style is the opposite of Zen teaching.

I love to hear yalls opinion on how great achievement and Buddhism can co-
exist.

~~~
silentbicycle
Buddhism is primarily about reducing the amount of suffering in the world, in
both ourselves and others. Part of this includes trying to let go of the cycle
in which you think you need _ to be happy, strive to get it (perhaps
successfully, perhaps not), then forget about it and reflexively start
worrying about the next _ . This sort of behavior ("retail therapy" and
subsequent credit card debt, for example) usually causes problems which get in
the way of great achievements, or even being able to think clearly enough to
enjoy our day-to-day lives.

(This is a quick attempt to summarize the idea usually translated as "desire
is the root of all suffering.")

One can do great things because they seem like the best thing to do with one's
time, not just because they're terrified by the feeling that they'll never be
happy / have a meaningful life without it.

------
bhrgunatha
We should note that Vipassana is a form of Buddhist meditation, which takes as
its base observances the four noble truths. The first of which is: To live is
to suffer.

Perhaps if the author tried a form of meditation that isn't based on such a
fundamentally negative philosophical basis then on his journey to
enlightenment he may find a more enjoyable and charitable viewpoint.

My first encounter with meditation was with a Tibetan Buddhist tradition. I
fully respect what I learned from their teachings, particularly about
cultivating compassion, but I was put off with this negative base assumption.
Later on I learned a form of meditation whose philosophical approach
characterises life as a glorious struggle to expand ourselves in every
possible dimension of existence, and along the way overcoming our flaws and
weaknesses.

To some, struggle might also seem negative, but struggle is NOT equal to
suffering - just ask all those struggling to get their startups off the ground
whether hard work and effort are suffering?

That's not to say that suffering doesn't exist - of course it does, but I
personally don't accept that it is the fundamental condition of humans.

Once you take a different philosophical basis then many of the observations of
the condition of others also take on a very different hue.

~~~
michael_dorfman
It's a bit disingenuous to claim that Buddhism has "such a fundamentally
negative philosophical basis"-- one shouldn't forget that the third noble
truth is that there is a way to end to suffering, and the fourth noble truth
is the description of that way.

Furthermore, a lot of translators think that "suffering" is not the most
felicitous translation of "dukkha"-- the root words mean "a wheel with a bad
axle", and it might be better to translate it as "unsatisfactory".

~~~
bhrgunatha
Sorry, my intent wasn't to dissuade anyone from Buddhism or to be
disingenuous, only to point out that it isn't the _only_ form of meditation
and also that the fundamental assumptions taken as the basis for meditation
can and do (heavily) influence your approach and view of life.

Personally, I chose not to accept that to live is to suffer or in your words
that life as a human being is inherently unsatisfactory, rather that it is a
state full of potential and opportunity to grow and help others.

------
sunjain
There is no doubt about the effectiveness of meditation. It is a tool. And
certainly Vipassana seems to be as methodical and systematic an approach as
can be possible, when it comes to learning(and seeing results of) meditation.
However, as in programming, it is important to go beyond the tool/s. And the
same is true about this peace thing. There is a similar path (non-dual advaita
based on self inquiry), where in addition to meditation, emphasis is given on
the root of the problem(or identifying and fixing the root of the problem,
which they identify as "I" or mind). In fact, it is very similar to Zen
Budhism, in the sense it is very direct, but is geared more more towards
knowledge-based /intellectual bend of mind. Here is one interview by Daivd
Goodman on this: <http://www.davidgodman.org/rteach/jd5.shtml>. I am sure
there must be lot of internet resources on the same.

------
KC8ZKF
"Zazen is good for nothing!" --Sawaki Roshi

~~~
radu_floricica
That would be a zen joke. Or a very serious thing, depends on the mood.

I'm having trouble with the whole "short-circuit the reason" thing in zen. I
get it that it is useful, but it just might not be for everybody.

~~~
silentbicycle
They're called koans. People in the US seem to be really attached to the koans
from Rinzai Zen, to the point where anything that's vaguely surreal is a
"Moment of Zen". On the other hand, Soto, the other major schools of Zen
buddhism, doesn't even use koans (it emphasizes meditation), and they arguably
have about as much to do with conventional Buddhism as getting your picture
taken with the Santa Claus at Macy's does with Christianity.

Historically, the association seems to be because the beats and hippies (who
were also pretty fond of surrealism) had a big part in popularizing Zen
Buddhism, while comparatively, most other forms of Buddhism haven't spread
that far past immigrant enclaves.

~~~
radu_floricica
Yup, I know. But Soto has its share of "faith", starting with the quote above:
if you do zen for any purpose, you're not doing it right. I get the point and
the logic, and I agree with it. But it's just too damn hard to swallow stuff
like this without chewing, and if i'm chewing it... well it usually makes
sense, but it's still not easy.

------
fluffster
Obviously if you go to a _party to relax_ , you are going to be disappointed.

Have you noticed the similarity with the magic business model?

1\. Sit down and watch your thoughts 2\. Magic! 3\. "harvest your crops of
faith, morality , mindfulness and wisdom"!!!!

When you are happy, you are not really happy. If you observe really closely (I
mean like really closely), there you will spot it. The horrible horrible evil
undercurrent of all-pervading universal sadness.

When the car is moving, it's not really moving. If you observe really closely,
you will see that actually it's not moving at all!

>the essence of life is suffering, said the Buddha.

Well perhaps, he was wrong?

It's like saying the essence of the electromagnetic spectrum is red.

Even before we ask whether to bother with meditation or not, let's ask what is
the probability that Buddha even formulated the problem correctly?

The first step to solving a problem is to state it correctly.

------
ujal
The purpose of every educational system is to prepare humans for life.
Supposed this we should include at least two new school subjects - meditation
and a teaching on HOW to consume information. We see our body as a machine but
tend to exclude our mind.

~~~
PieSquared
" _The purpose of every educational system is to prepare humans for life._ "

If only, if only. Very little schools teach us how to deal with the latent
abilities of our mind.

------
chaosmachine
In case it's not obvious, the rest of the book is here:

[http://www.vipassana.com/meditation/mindfulness_in_plain_eng...](http://www.vipassana.com/meditation/mindfulness_in_plain_english.php)

------
kleevr
"The harvest is great, but the laborers are few"

------
kashif
I have been for vipassana. My conclusion is that there approach is to
cauterization human emotions. I have also tried other meditation practices and
find the zen method more to my liking.

------
c00p3r
There are thousands of attempts to say what the meditation is, but in fact,
one should realize it by oneself. For me, for example, that was about to stop
looking "into the mirror" and suffering, and starting looking around, but not
judging, just see. But this is just a theory. Meditation is the another name
of some very simple practice. It could be described as "watch your thoughts".
When you can "see", then you can try to "control" this flow, and after that
you can try to stop it. Suddenly, after hours and hours of failures you will
catch that very moment, and realize this short "gap" between thoughts, while
last one already gone, but next one still not arise. Everything will be
obvious after this experience, like when you saw the light in the dark stormy
night. Of course, this moment was not that when you will drop and forget all
your flawed habits or booze and dope addictions, but you will finally have
something to compare to.

------
GiraffeNecktie
Why spam?

