
Microsoft Joins the Blender Development Fund - antoineMoPa
https://www.blender.org/press/microsoft-joins-the-blender-development-fund/
======
Impossible
There is a lot of implied ill-will on HN, I'm guessing the phrase "embrace
extend extinguish" in Microsoft related threads gets upvoted? From the post I
see that many Microsoft employees (at least in research) use Blender.
Microsoft decided to pay for the software their employees are using, which
happens to be open source, so the best way to do that is to donate to their
foundation. Epic Games, Google, Nvidia, Valve, AMD, Intel, Ubisoft and others
have done this (looking at the list of corporate sponsors is easy). This isn't
a plot to take over Blender and destroy it from within...

~~~
acatton
Exactly. According to the membership page[1], Microsoft will be paying between
€30k/year and €120k/year[2] to the blender foundation, along Intel and
Ubisoft. On the other hand, Nvidia, AMD and Epic games[1] are contributing
€120k+/year each.[2]

All of these companies get "direct access to the Blender team for strategical
discussions. Roadmaps and priorities will be aligned with your requirements as
good as possible."[2]

I don't see how they're going to "extinguish" blender. With this kind of
reasoning, OpenBSD was also "extinguished" in 2019.[3]

_____________________________________

[1] [https://fund.blender.org/#credits](https://fund.blender.org/#credits)

[2] [https://fund.blender.org/corporate-
memberships/](https://fund.blender.org/corporate-memberships/)

[3]
[https://www.openbsdfoundation.org/campaign2019.html](https://www.openbsdfoundation.org/campaign2019.html)

~~~
rbanffy
They probably can't extinguish Blender any more than Oracle could extinguish
MySQL (Larry must have been really mad for that), but I remember what happened
when they acquired and ported Softimage to NT. It worked for a couple
releases, then it was abandoned, after killing killing SGI by validating NT as
a 3D animation OS. The Softimage acquisition, as a business, made little sense
to Microsoft - it was a low volume high margin business, completely opposite
to what MS does.

SGI made plenty of suicidal moves by itself, but I remember the Softimage
thing was a big blow.

~~~
kayfox
Microsoft acquiring Softimage made perfect sense at the time, Microsoft was
wanting to push NT into the CG/VFX market, but because of the risk around
companies producing for a platform that noone uses, someone had to throw the
capital at it, and so Microsoft did.

Softimage|3D survived for a while after Microsoft sold it off, its eventual
obsolescence seemed to came about from the drive to more extensible platforms,
hence the new platform Softimage|XSI put out to compete with Maya.

Its also somewhat perfect irony that the company known for its Windows NT
based 3D animation software (3DS MAX), Autodesk, would eventually end up
owning the products which brought the big players over to that platform.

SGI also helped contribute to IRIX's obsolescence by producing NT based
systems for this new Softimage|3D on NT move.

~~~
rbanffy
> Microsoft was wanting to push NT into the CG/VFX market

That's what I meant. In isolation, the business meant no sense. It was a PR
move to validate NT as a graphics platform. With that goal accomplished, I got
the impression the product languished without significant development.

> SGI also helped contribute to IRIX's obsolescence by producing NT based
> systems for this new Softimage|3D on NT move.

Indeed. Microsoft assisted SGI in its suicide.

------
DrScientist
They appear to be using blender to generate data for machine learning!

So if you want to be able to recognizes poses or hand gestures from video or
image stills, you need data to train your network.

The bottleneck is often high quality 'labelled' data - real data that requires
people to laboriously label each frame and region with the 'ground truth'.

However, if you automatically generate the poses using something like Blender,
you can also automatically label, and also generate a huge variety of
systematic variations in camera angles, lighting, levels of noise etc.

Obviously there might be a worry that the Blender generated images may somehow
inject their own bias, but they claim it's working really well.

[https://www.microsoft.com/en-
us/research/uploads/prod/2019/0...](https://www.microsoft.com/en-
us/research/uploads/prod/2019/09/2019-10-01-Synthetic-Data-with-Digital-
Humans.pdf)

~~~
nightcracker
For the final project of the multimedia information retrieval class in my CS
Master's I'm doing something similar.

The goal is to predict depth maps from single-view pictures using CNNs. But
how to gather input, output pairs to train them?

I'm using a mod for Minecraft I wrote to generate such labeled data, e.g.
input: [https://i.imgur.com/JRtmCeG.png](https://i.imgur.com/JRtmCeG.png)
output: [https://i.imgur.com/q4KocXn.png](https://i.imgur.com/q4KocXn.png).

I'm not done yet so I can't tell you the results, but it's a fun project.

------
varbhat
1) Blender is GPLv2'ed Software,so there is no immediate danger of MS creating
proprietary fork of Blender and making money by selling the fork. I beleive
that they are contributing to Blender which benefits community as a whole.

2) Offtopic but i wish megacorps collaborate to create FLOSS alternative to
Adobe Suit like Photoshop/Other Graphic Design programs. This would super
benefit everybody on all platforms.

~~~
boogies
> _create_ [emphasis added] FLOSS alternative to Adobe Suit [sic] like
> Photoshop/Other Graphic Design programs

What's wrong with Krita, GIMP, Inkscape, etc.?

~~~
hellcow
Krita is fine for painting but isn't a full replacement for Photoshop.
Inkscape does vectors, which is something else different entirely.

If GIMP prioritized matching Photoshop's UX to make it easy to switch over
(shortcuts, UI similarity, etc.), it'd be much more successful at converting
Photoshop users. Serious Photoshop users at this point have spent more than a
decade (!) committing these things to muscle memory.

GIMP hasn't made replicating Photoshop's UX a priority, so it isn't a
replacement for someone more comfortable using the industry standard tool.

If I used Vim for a decade, then you said, "Notepad++ also edits text, why
don't you switch over?" Well, I'm not as productive in Notepad++, and I don't
think I'll ever be. Same for GIMP.

~~~
splatcollision
GIMP should do a Blender 2.8 and do a major focused release on improving UX

~~~
skykooler
There's a project called GIMPShop which was supposed to make the UI of GIMP
more like Photoshop; I don't know what the current status of it is though.

~~~
UncleSam
Just be aware that the dot com domain for gimpshop was not created by the
original author and contains malware in the download.
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7481091](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7481091)

------
DevKoala
Microsoft has dozens of game studios that enjoy using Blender, and no
competitor in the space (not recognized as a profitable business). Finding
negatives to this move is being too paranoid.

~~~
Impossible
I doubt any of Microsoft Game Studios seriously use Blender, although I'm sure
some individuals might use it for specific workflows. AAA games almost
universally use Maya (and ZBrush, Substance and Houdini), for example this
presentation on Gears 5 workflow specifically mentions Maya and Houdini
([https://cdn.gearsofwar.com/thecoalition/publications/The%20V...](https://cdn.gearsofwar.com/thecoalition/publications/The%20Visual%20Technology%20of%20Gears%205%20V2%20PDF%20Version.pdf)).
This donation specifically mentions digital humans created for Microsoft
Research, and MS Research as the user, not Microsoft Game Studios.

~~~
terramex
Blender skyrocketed in popularity in last 5 years. I just went through local
gamedev job openings site (skillshot.pl) and over half of 3D Artist postings
mention Blender.

~~~
Impossible
I never said that Blender is not used in game development, I specifically said
Blender is not widely used in AAA (Microsoft Game Studios) game productions,
and that Microsoft Game Studios is not the driving force for this donation
(which is stated in the origin post!). This should not be a controversial
statement.

~~~
GrammarCommie
> I specifically said Blender is not widely used in AAA game productions

This tells me you may not have been keeping as close tabs on industry
practices. I can tell you personally, this has been rapidly changing over the
past few years, and it's taken a lot of people by surprise. I can't say it's
supplanted Maya yet by any means, but that software's quickly being seen as
old-hat by each new wave of gamedevs. It's fascinating to see.

~~~
Impossible
If you have examples of AAA game developers that have moved their entire
studio (not individuals using Blender, or outsourced contractors making one
off assets) to Blender I'd like to hear it. I'm aware that indies, including
many successful ones, and potentially some mid-tier or AA studios, widely use
Blender. I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about Naughty Dog, Blizzard,
Treyarch, DICE, etc. I keep very close tabs on industry practices and work for
a major game engine company. You yourself said "I can't say it's supplanted
Maya yet by any means", I'm not talking about potential future growth, I'm
talking about the current state of the industry in a very specific product
category.

------
kevincox
I'm surprised how low a Corporate Gold membership is, just €30k a year. They
claim that is half of a developer year.

[https://fund.blender.org/corporate-
memberships/](https://fund.blender.org/corporate-memberships/)

Is the assumption that beyond that you would just hire your own developer to
work on blender?

~~~
galgalesh
€60.000/yr seems reasonable. This is the average salary in the Netherlands
(home of the blender foundation).

~~~
JrProgrammer
Could you provide a source for this statement because I'm pretty sure it's
actually closer to 45k/y for fairly experienced developers

~~~
roel_v
No, ezperienced C++ devs with the math skills you need to do 3d dev make 60k
or more, 45k is just above fresh graduate level. I don't have an online
source, just from what I know from companies and people I know, and doing
hiring myself in the past. I made more than 45k 10+ years ago when I was an
employee.

------
jcims
I just started paying attention to Blender again after some years. The
tutorials Ian Hubert does really demonstrates how powerful the product has
become -
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lY8Ol2n4o4A](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lY8Ol2n4o4A)

~~~
nicholasjon
Came here to say this. This video of his really opened my eyes to what Blender
can do
([https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lY8Ol2n4o4A](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lY8Ol2n4o4A))
and makes a cool entry point into that world.

------
mikece
Microsoft supporting BSD and MIT licensed open source makes sense; this has
become commonplace under Satya's leadership. Aside from contributions to Linux
to make it work well in Azure or Git to make it work well for Microsoft's
rather unique issues, their supporting GPL licensed products is yet another
stark reminder that this _isn 't_ Ballmer's Microsoft -- and that Microsoft
might actually be doing more for F/OSS software than the FAANGs of the world
are at this point in time!

~~~
pjmlp
I use lots of commercial software, so this is more a kind of philosophical
question.

Many that still bash Microsoft for EEE practices, are the first in the line
killing GPL based stacks, pushing BSD and MIT licenses, which most of the time
end up with selected updates in upstream and gold features only on the
commercial products.

Which kind of makes sense, supermarkets don't take PR, but it is a kind of two
weight two measures.

------
vikramkr
Are there any good examples of embrace extend extinguish under nadella's
tenure? I keep seeing this meme everywhere (including in this thread) but git
is doing fine, Linux is doing fine. The only notable things I've seen
extinguished are their own windows phone and phone hardware platforms.

~~~
neilsimp1
Extinguish, I have no examples. But Embrace and Extend, here is a possible
one. Not saying I think this is a case of the first two E's necessarily but I
know other people have pointed it out.

1\. Build WSL2 and incorporate Linux kernel into Windows with great
integration. 2\. Add DirectX and GPU acceleration support for Linux that works
in WSL2 only and not in regular Linux:
[https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=Linux-
GU...](https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=Linux-GUI-Apps-GPU-
WSL2).

These two steps could certainly be looked at as Embrace and Extend, although I
admittedly fail to see how they could take an Extinguish step from here.

~~~
zeusk
Well, the way directx on wsl works is it redirects dxgkrnl escapes/ioctls to
host windows system something not possible on native Linux.

~~~
capableweb
Well, that doesn't matter in the end. Part of extend is to take whatever you
embraced, and add things you cannot do. So it's a success in that sense. Seems
you're trying to put it as "What can Microsoft do if Linux doesn't support
it?" when they can, if they want to, do plenty about it.

~~~
zeusk
I think you're wrong there, bringing dxgkrnl to Linux would have been a much
more involved process instead of just providing a redirect.

dxgkrnl is by far the heaviest NT module afaik.

~~~
capableweb
> bringing dxgkrnl to Linux would have been a much more involved process
> instead of just providing a redirect

Of course, that's how collaboration works. Instead of going the harder but
"improving the entire ecosystem" way, Microsoft chose the easiest + the one
where they can extend stuff in a non-compatible way.

~~~
zeusk
The way you look, you'll find malice in every little thing.

------
jfkebwjsbx
Blender is doing so good nowadays it is crazy... Everyone is supporting them.

I hope they keep the team smallish as always!

------
throw_m239339
Tangential but a project I'd like to see supported more financially is
FreeCAD, used in many corporations of all sizes, big and small, like Behringer
for instance. It's very powerful and capable but incredibly buggy.

------
oregontechninja
Their paint3d app isn't the worst thing for non technical creatives. But it
scares me when I see the big MS start "embracing" something I love.

------
nickhalfasleep
If Microsoft is smart, they will continue to support large productivity
applications in major industries that don't fit into an app store model.

The kinds of things that work better on a full Windows 10 machine.

~~~
pratik661
I think the "Commoditize your complement" mantra is used by megacorps to
justify their investment in open source. In this case, 3D modeling is probably
complementary to their AI investments.

~~~
pjmlp
glTF 2.0 breakthrough adoption was triggered by Microsoft contributions to
move glTF 1.0 beyond WebGL as target API.

------
gfxgirl
I wish Sony, Dreamworks, Pixar, Disney and other major CG studios would pitch
in. They all probably pay 6 or 7 figures a year for licenses for various pro
3D software. I know Blender is not actually at the same level as much of that
software but it could be if enough funds were there to support it. Either fund
it directly or fund internal devs to contribute.

~~~
pjmlp
Blender still needs to improve a lot to compete against Renderman, Octane
Render, Hyperion Renderer and similar.

~~~
GrammarCommie
Blender isn't competing with those programs, because those are a different
type of software. Those are renderers, not 3D production suites. And two of
the renderers you listed can be natively used in Blender in place of its own
renderer.

Blender is competing against Maya, not Renderman.

------
Const-me
They might need to be there to port the software for that new armv8-a windows
they have. I don’t think there’re many volunteers implementing support of a
platform that hasn’t quite took off.

------
Jonnax
"Microsoft makes use of Blender to generate synthetic 3D models and images of
humans that can be used to train AI models. For researchers, having access to
high quality free/opensource 3D software has proven to be of great benefit for
scientific projects." Here's what they linked:

[https://www.microsoft.com/en-
us/research/uploads/prod/2019/0...](https://www.microsoft.com/en-
us/research/uploads/prod/2019/09/2019-10-01-Synthetic-Data-with-Digital-
Humans.pdf)

Am I in the minority where all I see in this synthetic human stuff is
surveillance and propaganda usage?

What other benefits are there?

~~~
sidr
I would think the primary use case for this would be pose estimation and/or
recovering 3d models from 2d images. The primary use cases I'd guess is for
AR/VR and building other kinds of interfaces (gestures etc).

Neither of these use cases seem very useful for surveillance. I'm not
convinced that facial recognition algorithms would benefit that much from
synthetic faces, but I very well may be wrong about that.

------
pixxel
“Corporate Memberships: It's like having developers work for you - on Blender!
This membership level is for organisations who want the option to monitor in
more detail what will get funded with their contributions. They will get
direct access to the Blender team for strategical discussions. Roadmaps and
priorities will be aligned with your requirements as good as possible.“

------
Ericson2314
Yeah this seems innocent enough. If Autodesk gets on the board, _then_ we need
to be worried.

------
zmix
3E

------
justicezyx
MSFT figures out how to play with Open Source: If you can't defeat them join
them

~~~
wutwutwutwut
This happened 10 years ago btw.

