
The “No Man's Sky” Archaeology Project - limbicsystem
https://archaeologydataservice.ac.uk/blog/2019/09/no-mans-sky/
======
cletus
I remember when NMS was announced. I was pretty excited about it. But of
course when it was released it had huge problems. But, hey, at least it came
out ( _cough_ Star Citizen _cough_ ). So I skipped it.

Fast forward 2 years to the Next update, which by all accounts was a huge
improvement in many areas. So I picked it up earlier this year and played
putting a fair number of hours into it. It wasn't problem-free but honestly I
enjoyed it.

Fast forward again to later this year and the Beyond update comes out. This
has been another massive improvement. There are a couple of minor things I
don't like but honestly, it's a decent way to aimlessly wander the galaxy. It
still has RNG in getting the best ships, which I find annoying and tedious,
but it's enjoyable.

One of big problems in Next was that base building had SO many problems.
Beyond fixed a bunch but it's still a problem. If Minecraft has taught us
anything, it's that people will invest a huge amount of time in building a
base. It's an expression of identity. It's a hobby that's an easy time sink.
It's something the devs really need to double down on.

But I really respect the fact that the devs have kept updating this game. It's
easy to get 100+ hours out of this game now (and I have quite a few more than
that).

Still, I feel like there are a bunch of lost opportunities:

\- Climate is global on a planet or moon. Why no ecosystems?

\- No tidally locked worlds

\- Gravity is the same

\- No running water

\- No geological features (geysers, volcanoes, etc)

I've built a giant glass cube on some random world. I don't know how long the
servers for this game will be around but it amuses me that years from now
someone may randomly come across what I built.

So archaeology in games like this fascinates me.

~~~
grawprog
>Still, I feel like there are a bunch of lost opportunities:

\- Climate is global on a planet or moon. Why no ecosystems?

\- No tidally locked worlds

\- Gravity is the same

\- No running water

\- No geological features (geysers, volcanoes, etc)

What would be awesome, though likely totally infeasible would be the universe
of no man's sky coupled with the individual world building of dwarf fortress,
maybe not the civilizations, but the geological stuff. The way the world gen
simulates erosion, and change over time to landforms. With different
variations to the types of worlds generated, you could get some pretty cool
geologically unique worlds. Have worlds with different primary mineral types
and atmospheres form differently than earthlike ones and stuff.

I'm sure something like that is years and years away. Even if it was on a
smaller scale, so you could have people actually end up meeting eachother and
because different planets would be different geologically there would be
different resources and opportunities for trading and stuff....

OK...I'm sorry, i've kind rambled on in a tangent and gotten away from the
original premise now...I'll stop here.

~~~
setr
In general, all such mechanics are a dramatic simplification of reality, and
when doing such a procgen, you don't do such a from-scratch approach, because
it's unfeasible. What you do instead is realize that you want a tidallocked
world, then figure out the most important outcomes of it, then fiddle with
your generation rules till you get something that looks mostly correct.

More likely than not, it's perfectly feasible in the nms engine, but the devs
themselves haven't put much thought towards it.

Also see heredragonsabound; you can get really far with parameter fiddling.

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Illniyar
"As part of my University of York Archaeology PhD thesis, I conducted a case
study into what is now called the “Legacy Hub ”. The goals of the project were
not only to determine if (and how) archaeology could be conducted on human
settlements within a digital environment, but also delved into 3D-printing
human-made architecture, creating a new kind of map, undertaking
photogrammetry of sites past and present, recording epigraphic evidence, and
working hand-in-glove with the Hub’s leadership, which included an ambassador
for the community’s heritage. "

Wait, what? I don't know if it's insane or groundbreaking to do a PhD Thesis
on archaeology in a video game.

~~~
setr
Anything where people operate for a decent duration of time, and able to
modify their environment, seems a viable choice of study. But some options are
more reasonable than others -- eg Minecraft has heavy modifications, but lacks
the relationship with the environment that makes it closer to studying artwork
than a "culture". No Man's Sky seems acceptable, but imo there are better/more
interesting game options out there, like Eve or Ultima Online, which both
offer a much more advanced simulation than No Man's Sky, and a much more
storied set of human interactions and societies.

~~~
nordsieck
> imo there are better/more interesting game options out there, like Eve or
> Ultima Online

I'm unfamiliar with UO, but with Eve, sadly, much of the most innovative and
interesting parts of the game are done outside the client.

~~~
capableweb
> sadly, much of the most innovative and interesting parts of the game are
> done outside the client

This is also true for the other examples (Minecraft and No Man's Sky) where
the games basically become what the player base uses it for. I think this
happens to most freeform games where without the multiplayer aspect, the game
basically is nowhere near the same experience as with.

~~~
squarefoot
Single player games can be greatly satisfying as well, but they need a story
that keeps the player interested. If we could have a game the size of No Man's
Sky with a compelling story plus subplots and complex non player characters,
such as the first 3 Mass Effect games (best games ever played in my entire
life, ME3 lame ending aside), that would make a masterpiece even in single
player mode. ME Andromeda apparently tried and mostly failed (I still didn't
play it but watched hours of gameplay to get an idea), let's hope the next one
will learn from past mistakes. NMS, which I still have to play, looks like to
me a great online experience that could become also a killer single player
game once enhanced for that purpose. One thing however I don't like much about
NMS is the graphics which although truly beautiful artistically speaking,
seems to me a bit too cartoonish.

~~~
ehnto
I partially agree. The reason I disagree is that single player games with
compelling story, although my favourite, eventually run out of content, even
if it's compelling and if the world is open and freeform. But multiplayer
games evolve as the player base is what provides the story and dynamics. In
many online games there is potentially limitless gameplay and content, the
game engine and environment serve only as the playground for players to build
from.

An example is GTAV. Where there are lots of structured things to do yet the
players constantly make their own meetups, car shows and other shenanigans.

A notable exception could be Minecraft, where you could have your own single
player world and so long as you are interested it can keep evolving.

~~~
squarefoot
"The reason I disagree is that single player games with compelling story,
although my favourite, eventually run out of content, even if it's compelling
and if the world is open and freeform"

That is true, and that alone would make the necessary development not
economically viable for any game whose life is measured in few years, but what
if, along content provided by players, the game creators could insert new
environments with NPCs and new stories without ditching the game? In a few
years/decades probably AI could also generate characters that develop
themselves according to the environment they "grew" into or events happened
during their "life". Dreaming too much maybe:)

~~~
ehnto
I am wholeheartedly hoping for that to happen with Fallout76. Permanence gives
a lot of the stuff you do in Fallout a bit more purpose. Like crafting good
weapons and building a settlement you like. In non permanent versions the
story was the main point so you could skip the looting and crafting if you
wanted as you didn't really need it. But in a perfect world F76 you have a
reason to build worthwhile settlements and gear and collect resources and so
on. I have been playing it as if it were a singleplayer game, so although it
is multiplayer that doesn't affect my play through that much.

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scaglio
Also, NMS's subreddit is one of the most cohesive and unite community for a
videogame, as far as I know. They are extremely supportive with Hello Games
and continuously give them feedback for the enhancements, which made the game
much more enjoyable than when it was launched.

~~~
Krasnol
The Elite Dangerous sub is pretty nice too. I guess it's a simulation gaming
thing. It draws a different audience than shooters or other competitive games.

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driverdan
Similar studies could be done on long running Minecraft servers. Back when I
was playing a lot of MC one of the things I enjoyed was exploring abandoned
bases. It's really interesting to see what happens to abandoned bases /
settlements in open world games.

I once had a large base on a modded Minecraft server, with multiple buildings,
lots of machinery, nuclear reactors, power lines running everywhere, etc.
Eventually I stopped playing and announced to everyone else my stuff was free
for the taking.

A few months later I decided to hop on and see what was left. It was almost
like you'd expect to happen in real life.

The buildings were mostly intact but had missing doors and broken windows. All
of the most valuable stuff was stripped out. There was some worthless stuff
left, like food in vanilla chests. My nuclear reactors had been partially
disassembled, the most valuable parts scavenged.

It felt like visiting an abandoned factory in Detroit. It was once glorious
and now stood in ruin.

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daodedickinson
Huh. Was listening to an archived Skyrim Addict podcast episode last night,
and two of the hosts agreed that this update that destroyed all their hundreds
or thousands of hours of work so that they could never play it again, but they
recommended it to players who had never played it before.

~~~
ChikkaChiChi
How so? I didn't think the recent update was destructive?

~~~
daodedickinson
This episode was from 1 or 2 years ago

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Pmop
Anyone interested in the topic should also check out 2b2t, which is one of the
oldest Minecraft anarchy multiplayer servers. It's filled with history and
ruins.

~~~
z3t4
I wonder if my base still stands. But the 2b2t server has gone pay 2 play so
haven't played for some years. Have the coordinates written down somewhere.
Btw it would be really fun with a Minecraft like game focusing on PvP, since
Minecraft is focused on co-op it does not have any cheat preventions, which
ruins the experience on servers like 2b2t.

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slowhadoken
This game is such a train wreck. It’s got everything I should want and nothing
that compels me to play it. Every update is a false promise. I wish it were
good.

~~~
jawngee
It's a game I describe as "addictively boring". I'm about 300+ hours in. It's
my version of a rock garden.

~~~
reilly3000
Space exploration itself involves quite a lot of boredom, I’m told.

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Krasnol
I would love to play this game so much but the colours are just too much. I
can't really explain why but I tried just watching a friend playing it and it
was too much.

I wish they would have a toned down version or Mod or something.

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farrelmahaztra
Was the data collected manually? As far as I can tell the author went to 30
sites and created hundreds of data files per site. The effort is impressive

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unnouinceput
Is this related to that disaster game that people complained about it at
launch so much that Valve changed their return policy for this game alone to
allow people get their refunds back after a longer than usual period? Why
would anyone play this game anyway? Also I think Nixon was the best US
president in modern history, his "A sucker is born every minute" was way ahead
of its time.

~~~
fareesh
The developers made claims about the game that turned out to be false.
Eventually those features made it to the game. The current version is pretty
good.

~~~
pmontra
But are players happy with updates that destroy everything they built?
Disclaimer: I don't know anything about this game, I'm only surprised by what
I read on this article.

~~~
tjpnz
People were in general willing to accept it if it meant for a better game
(which I would say they've definitely delivered on). In more recent updates
Hello Games has committed to not doing this again in future. Given the game
has lived up to what was initially promised I'm willing to trust them.

