
Could Formula E ever rival Formula 1? - kenshiro_o
http://www.economist.com/blogs/economist-explains/2013/09/economist-explains-14?fsrc=scn/fb/wl/bl/formulaerival
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moocowduckquack
_" In addition, spectators will be able to interact with the cars using social
media. The talk is of allowing them to award drivers extra goes on their
“push-to-pass” boost buttons"_

Well, that sounds wide open for abuse. Also, I am not sure how the bookies
would deal with something like that when calculating the odds. _" Well, this
driver is better, but the other one has a huge following on twitter, so the
odds are in their favour..."_

~~~
k-mcgrady
"In addition, spectators will be able to interact with the cars using social
media. The talk is of allowing them to award drivers extra goes on their
“push-to-pass” boost buttons"

That's the most stupid thing I've heard all week. No matter how it's
implemented it's silly. Fans shouldn't be able to influence the result of a
race.

~~~
lessnonymous
Oh God .. what a dumb idea. Until I got to that bit it sounded great. Whether
it's FIA or someone else, if it can get a following then the innovation the
teams will develop will be massive for electric cars. And that it IS FIA
that's organising it, it's got a good chance of being at least very
interesting.

But if you're going to let the audience VOTE on the outcome I might as well go
watching survivor. Maybe they'll let us vote asshole drivers off the island?

~~~
moocowduckquack
Ideas this mindbogglingly stupid are a good reminder that the FIA, like many
other wealthy pursuits, would appear to be mainly fuelled by a high octane
mixture of alcohol and cocaine. I cannot see otherwise how something so dumb
would have made it past a single meeting.

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alan_cx
Rival?

No.

Leaving aside the massive world wide following and it's deep history and
legends...

What will continue to happen is that F1 will get more and more electric over
time. The new regs for 2014 are for a smaller engine, supplemented by larger
KERS, pushing for fuel efficiency. Long term, I see that trend continuing.
Burning up shed loads of fossil fuels to merely race will get more and more
difficult while normal car drivers and manufacturers have to deal with
efficiency. F1 will evolve in the electric direction.

That is not to even begin to suggests FE is a waste of time or anything like
that. I'm massively looking forward to it, might even allow the word
"excited". Much of it will run in the F1 off season. It can run in any major
world city resulting in potentially fantastic visuals. I really like that you
can hear the tyres working. All you hear now is engine, and that actually
doesn't tell you much about the driver. Hearing the tyres tells us a lot more.
For me FE is a fascinating supplement to F1 which could or should help F1 get
more electric. Both technology wise, and in the PR battle with olde skool F1
fans. It can prove electric racing works.

Equally, there are parts of FE that I don't like, but mostly they are things
that will evolve and be solved over time, like the car swap thing, or PR type
things like the social media voting for boosts nonsense. But the basic idea of
trying to create an electric open wheel racing series is fundamentally right.
I really hope it can gain enough traction to keep going.

Actually, a final thought. I might be completely wrong...

There is a chance that FE, if run and marketed right could be made to appeal
to the Need for Speed generation. Run races at night. Bright lights ever
where; scenery, under-lighting on the cars and all that glitz. Lots of music,
and off track entertainment. Get game/software developers, ICE manufacturers,
and the likes of Red Bull involved. Make it all look like a Fast and Furious
race night, or X games events. Go heavy youth, apps, social media, and so on.
Make sure it's on free TV with cool youth friendly presenters hyping it all
up. If it gains a following from the ground up, it could become incredibly
popular.

So, essentially forget F1 and F1 fans. In fact, I wonder if the mistake is the
open wheel F1 look a like thing, which draws unhelpful comparisons. Maybe
they'd be better off racing electric cars that at least resemble the kind of
cars you can buy? Electric chassis with light bodies resembling current road
cars?

Dunno. But whatever the case, Im in. I'll probably always watch F1 (not to
mention many other racing series) for better or worse, but FE is very much a
welcome addition for me.

~~~
aristomc
F1 has been pushing for fuel efficiency, however, costs continue to rise. It's
a problem in F1.

~~~
chiph
Specialized labor, specialized materials. Teams wanting "cool factor" for
support infrastructure. And driver salaries.

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Avshalom
Frankly it's more likely that in 30 years F1 will be electric. F1 is the
premier series (it's kinda in the name), FIA would just change the formula or
merge the classes if F-E was on its way to dominance.

It's probably going electric eventually anyway.

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joshwd
Probably not. Too much money and power invested in F1, and even despite the
boring Tilkedromes that have come to dominate the schedule, it'd be hard for
Formula E to compete on quality of tracks. More likely, we'll see a continued
progression towards increased use of hybrid systems - more powerful KERS,
bigger batteries, decreased fuel tank size - which might at least cause
Formula E to become a useful feeder series for drivers (perhaps if the driving
style starts to become dramatically different?) and especially for engineers.

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danmaz74
This is really interesting. But, please, drop the extra speed for the most
tweeted!

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robomartin
Well, the problem with F1 is the FIA. This is the body that owns F1. They are
a bunch of dinosaurs who haven't figured out how to embrace the internet yet.
Here in the US I can't watch F1 races unless I pay for an expensive
cable/satellite package that includes the Speed channel.

I really enjoy F1 and used to watch every race back when I had the Speed
channel but we've cut down our satellite package to the bare minimum necessary
to have local stations, mostly for local news (now questioning that). With
Netflix, Youtube and other Internet-based media sources there's plenty to
watch and quality is often better than broadcast television. I wish the FIA
would let go and bring the races to the Internet with all the wonderful tools
and flexibility this could offer.

I love the idea of Formula E, but if it is going to be guarded behind the same
kind of irrational thinking it will not reach as wide of an audience as
possible.

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Theodores
Bernie Ecclestone is F1: he made it into something more than motor racing by
negotiating the sale of the TV rights for the benefit of all of the teams (and
his pocket).

For FE to eclipse F1 then something major has to happen with the TV rights. At
the moment it does not look like FE will have the big star names and the
legendary teams. Even if the racing is really good then it will need more than
that 'natural appeal' \- there is plenty of good racing in lesser formulas as
it is but this does not translate to a sizeable TV audience of avid fans. F1
has great spectacle value that no other formula has, FE will struggle to
attain that and will consequently be an also-ran formula.

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andrewcooke
_And just as its premier race series has helped drive innovation in the
engines, brakes, suspension and aerodynamics of everyday cars_

are there any statistics / studies on this kind of thing? or the similar claim
from space exploration?

i don't dispute there are useful advances, but i wonder whether they would
have been made anyway (perhaps at a lower overall cost, if "cost" can be at
all well defined).

[edit: i see from the comments below that maybe i need to repeat _i don 't
dispute there are useful advances_ and the question _are there any statistics
/ studies on this kind of thing?_]

~~~
ericcumbee
Brakes and Tires are two big things where advances have come from racing.
Audi's FSI technology was originally built for the Audi R8 LMP.

~~~
gsnedders
Amusingly: Audi didn't tell anyone about FSI until after the chequered flag.
"Oh, by the way guys, we used this unproven technology and just won."

~~~
ericcumbee
They have done that a couple times, Variable Turbine Geometry comes to mind.

------
Gazk
It will be interesting to hear how much noise an F-E car will produce. It's a
big part of the atmosphere at an F1 event. I've seen some TTXGP bikes race and
it is eerily quiet.

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DanI-S
F1 is as much about the drama and the personalities as it is about the cars
and the technology. If they can attract some big name drivers, there'll be an
immediate audience.

~~~
alan_cx
Big name drivers would provide a big boost, but I also think McLaren and
Williams involvement will help get quite a few F1 fans interested to start
with. Keeping them might be tricky. But if they do, then numbers could build.

Im not sure though how F1 people would react if FE started actually did start
to or look like potentially rivaling it.

Personally, I don't want to compare the two, even though it is tempting.
Ideally, I want FE to find it's own niche and be successful, then hopefully
grow in to its own big thing. Hopefully it will attract its own new sponsors,
fans, heros, etc, and not be seen as a rival.

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k-mcgrady
Of course but it's highly unlikely.

F1 is slowly becoming more energy efficient and therefore more relevant again.
The changes being introduced next year are massive (1.6-litre turbocharged V6
engines, a much improved energy recovery system providing an extra 160bhp for
about 30 seconds per lap, maximum fuel limits) and have already encouraged
Honda to return as an engine supplier.

F1's long history and worldwide popularity is also a big factor that will be
hard for any new Formula to compete with.

~~~
kenshiro_o
F1 is certainly improving but F-E seems very promising nonetheless. If we can
get more constructors to actively develop their electric engines through F-E
then we could see some real benefits throughout the automotive industry.

Assuming F-E gains in popularity, it would be a huge boost for the likes of
Tesla to take part in this sport. I am glad that the FIA is seriously
considering F-E as an alternative to F1. Moreover, I don't mind shorter races
- I find these 3 hour F1 races really boring these days.

~~~
k-mcgrady
It's definitely good to see a Formula aimed at developing electric engines. I
just don't think it will take off. If it looks like it will F1 will just move
more in that direction and lure the engine developers away from FE.

>> "I am glad that the FIA is seriously considering F-E as an alternative to
F1"

I don't think they're considering it as an alternative. There are lots of FIA
sanctioned Formula (e.g. Formula 3, A1GP etc.).

>> "I find these 3 hour F1 races really boring these days."

An F1 race is limited to 2 hours max, usually coming in around 1 hour 40 mins.

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alexeisadeski3
Given the recent little rifts in the AGW-climate observations, what are the
odds that the whole electric car movement loses steam within the next ten
years?

~~~
michaelt
AGW or no, I don't know many people betting fuel prices [1] will go anywhere
but up.

[1]
[http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/52645000/gif/_52645454...](http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/52645000/gif/_52645454_fuel_prices464_2.gif)

~~~
alexeisadeski3
You probably don't know many people who bet on fuel prices then. The current
price is the best guess for the future price, and that's true with both oil
and gasoline. This means that there is almost always a 50/50 chance that any
future price will be higher or lower (barring seasonal adjustments, of
course).

[http://www.cmegroup.com/trading/energy/refined-
products/rbob...](http://www.cmegroup.com/trading/energy/refined-
products/rbob-gasoline_quotes_globex.html)

[http://www.cmegroup.com/trading/energy/crude-oil/light-
sweet...](http://www.cmegroup.com/trading/energy/crude-oil/light-sweet-
crude.html)

 _" With the combination of new supplies of oil, an aging U.S. population and
the permanent demand destruction we have seen means that baring [sic] a major
disruption of global supply gas prices have put in what should be a historic
peak."_

[http://www.futuresmag.com/2013/04/09/gasoline-sees-calls-
for...](http://www.futuresmag.com/2013/04/09/gasoline-sees-calls-for-long-
term-top)

------
lumberjack
F1 is special in that it is the most fervently followed spectator motor sport.
It is not just about the cars and the tracks and the action.

~~~
SeanLuke
I'm not sure what fervor means here, but in 2009 F1 events had a total
attendance of about 2.8 million. Whereas NASCAR had a total attendance of
about 3.8 million.

~~~
alan_cx
Got any TV numbers to compare?

In 2009 F1 breached 600 million. (First figure I found)

NASCAR? I couldn't find a number to quote.

Also, how many F1 races? How many NASCAR races? Im not sure attendance
compares.

~~~
SeanLuke
I can't find one either: but I'm not sure "I saw it on TV" is as good a
measure of "fervor" as "I paid good money to attend it in person."

As to number of races, surely a moment's thought will convince you of the
speciousness of that argument. That's like saying "Sure, The Dark Night had a
bigger take than Moneyball, but it was on so many more screens."

Not that I am remotely interested in NASCAR...

~~~
alan_cx
Attendance wise, NASCAR is local. Its in one country and sort of moves
locally. F1 drops down in countries, then disappears. The whole thing is
different. Frankly, I think its pretty hard to properly compare the two in any
reasonable way. Its pretty much like comparing hockey with basketball, there
are similarities, but they are totally different sports.

BTW, I am one of those rare things, a British NASCAR follower. Not exactly a
"fan" as such; I enjoy it, but I'm not knowledgeable beyond the obvious. That
said, F1 is my main thing. One of the reasons NASCAR appeals to me is the
almost complete contrast with F1 (and Indycar, which I also watch).

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001sky
_The SRT-01Es will also use electronic generators to make a whooshing noise,
at least when in the pit lane to alert mechanics._

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aristomc
Excited to see how this will pan out

