

Why The Tech Industry Is Ruining SF - bmahmood
http://venturebeat.com/2013/08/21/4-toast-why-the-tech-industry-is-ruining-san-francisco/

======
toufka
>overpriced every other basic commodity of human existence.

I'm a starving grad student who lives a block from the mentioned, The Mill. I
can't afford anything of quality traditionally associated with prosperity
(car, house, family, etc.). But I can afford quality of the quotidian -
headphones, breakfast, coffee, shoes, beer. And so I spend on those things
instead - because there's no way I will ever be able to even afford a crappy
car in this city.

And the quality _is_ better in SF. It's true, there is always someone willing
to sell you a $10x priced version of what you just bought if you want to be
the sucker. But SF actually does a pretty good job at giving you what you pay
for. You do pay a lot - but you get the best damned toast and coffee in the
country. If you just wanted 'some toast and coffee' you should have gone
across the street to Eddies - because that exists too.

The result is you get fantastic experimentation at the very cutting edge of
_even_ the quotidian. Not only does the bay area churn out Musks & Jobs', but
we also churn out the Bakers & the Mas - who can make us the best bread and
clothes the world has seen, at a price I can afford, blocks from my home. And
such places exist because the community is willing to support them. The art of
breadmaking has died in the rest of the country because of the race to the
supermarkets' bottom. I think it's extraordinary that the SF population
supports the common arts even at personal cost.

I think this particular (non-)problem is distinct from the expulsion of
culture happening because of the commute/rent issues facing the city.

~~~
rayiner
You're deluded if you think San Francisco has the best bread or coffee in the
world. I don't even know what to tell you.

Hint: because of astronomical rents in the city, anything you buy for say $X
will use lower quality inputs than a comparable thing you buy for $X somewhere
else. It's a necessary economic fact. Businesses have to break even, at least,
and in the face of high rents they have to skimp elsewhere.

If you want something legit, head north to Portland. The low rents there mean
that real artisans can afford to put out quality product while still pricing
their wares within market ranges.

~~~
toufka
If you can make bread in Ohio, but the people will only pay $1 a slice, there
is no way your margins will support you buying a $100,000 oven to bake in,
fresh grains to mill yourself, and a highly-educated person to reason out
modern recipes. You have to compete with Safeway. Same with espresso &
espresso machines.

If you can sell your bread for $4 a slice in SF, all of a sudden (even with
the high rent), you can now afford those very real improvements to the art.
There are lines out the door at The Mill - and the very reason this story was
written was because they _are_ selling their wares at market ranges. But
they're selling wares produced with top quality resources, produced by top
quality artisans.

The beauty of The Mill, mentioned - is the baking is done all in the open in
front of the customers. If they tried to use substandard ingredients, honey
not from local farms, a poorly functioning oven, or otherwise tried to reduce
their quality to what is found elsewhere their customers would not return. At
the end of the day, the margins are probably similar, but you have a lot more
capital to work with in SF.

~~~
seanmcdirmid
The same happens in Japan: expensive but every bar has a wood fired pizza
oven, every Indian restarsunt has a wood fired naan oven, ... The food is just
so good there, they don't cut corners at all.

After living abroad, SF is a great value for anything other than rent.

~~~
snogglethorpe
I think restaurants in Japan are often great+ because Japan has an
extraordinary service culture. They try. Just giving a tiny little _bit_ of a
damn goes a long way...

\+ There's obviously tons of pedestrian/fast/chain/meh food in Japan, but even
that stuff is generally a few notches above the same thing in the U.S. Even
U.S. branches of Japanese chain restaurants generally seem far worse than the
home branches...

~~~
seanmcdirmid
It is not just service culture, it is competition, high expectations from
consumers, and the ability to invest in equipment that goes along with high
prices.

~~~
snogglethorpe
I agree with the first two, but I don't think expensive equipment is really
much of an influence -- a _lot_ of small restaurants (and bars etc) in Japan
turn out amazing food with little more than a hob and a frypan, and indeed
that seems more the rule than the exception.

[Of course, higher prices also can help pay for higher-quality ingredients,
which do play a part.]

------
simonebrunozzi
I'm Italian and I think I know something about good food: trust me, there are
only exceptions in San Francisco. Most food is crap, or just average. And
ALWAYS overpriced.

Take the "trendy" places: Flour + Water, Farina, Cocina, etc. If you go there,
you will hear Americans shouting "Sooo good! Delicious! Amazing! Soo tasty!",
etc.

Reality is that if you take any random restaurant or trattoria in Rome,
chances are you will eat something AMAZINGLY superior, for 1/3 or 1/4 of the
cost. (then there are some tourist traps, and they don't count, of course.
They're just a scam).

My 0.02.

~~~
stevenwei
The same can be said for basically any country and it's native cuisine. E.g.
sushi in Japan.

That said, in my experience the US does other countries' cuisines better than
most. By that I mean Italian food in the US is much better than Italian food
in Japan.

~~~
snogglethorpe
Given America's large immigrant population and tradition, you'd expect it
would in many cases do rather well at foreign cuisines. Despite this, however,
in my experience the average Japanese "Italian" restaurant is a _much_ better
bet for getting good food (even if not necessarily all that close to what they
might serve in Italy) than the average American "Italian" restaurant, because
unfortunately, the latter often really, really, suck at the basic "edible
product" level...

~~~
lotso
What is the average "Italian" restaurant, and why would you ever eat at it?
zagat.com and stick to 23+ rating restaurants.

------
otterley
Just because you can buy a $6 breakfast (consisting of a cup of coffee and a
slice of toast and jam), $300 jeans or $200 yoga pants in SF doesn't mean you
have to. For every The Mill, Blue Bottle, LuluLemon or whatever hip-jeans
store there is in SF, there's a McDonald's, Denny's, Marshall's, Burlington
Coat Factory and Payless Shoes counterpart (and god knows how many pop-up
import shops). That's the great thing about SF -- you can spend as much or as
little as you like on material goods.

The rent situation is, of course, out of hand, but that's mainly a supply
constraint problem that's not easily solved due to our unique brand of
NIMBYism.

~~~
guard-of-terra
You seem to be getting very cheap food in USA. Where I live (Moscow) $6 for
breakfast is cheapest you can find, but I wouldn't pay $300 for jeans (I buy
mine for like $50-$70; some surely would).

~~~
fivre
Food struck me as weirdly cheap in Moscow--restaurants were expensive, but
street stalls and groceries were cheap, especially compared to markups on
other consumer goods (I bought a webcam there for $70 that would have cost $30
in the US). Bread, at least, was always cheap as dirt, and available in better
quality/variety than in American supermarkets.

~~~
guard-of-terra
Prices don't stay still. Street stalls are cheaper but fulfilling breakfast
still around $6.

Cheapest bread is heavily subsidized, but I struggle to find inexpensive
variety bread in Moscow (and I live here). It's either very plain or very
expensive or both. Even a small town near polar circle my wife is from happens
to have better bread selection. I end up baking my own, which is awesome.

------
nasalgoat
I submitted the following article yesterday:

[http://www.salon.com/1999/10/28/internet_2/](http://www.salon.com/1999/10/28/internet_2/)

It's basically the same thing, except from 1999. The more things change...

------
sologoub
This one really confused me: "Rarely are these goods and services truly
accessible and affordable."

What do goods/services aimed at wealthier segments of the population have to
do with accessibility and affordability?

I presently cannot afford a Ferrari, should I be up in arms about the lack of
affordability/accessibility to the said Ferrari?

If we are talking housing, one could make a case for the need for
affordability/some form of social protection. Although, I'm not entirely sold
that people have a "right" to live in a prestigious neighborhood that they
cannot afford, but when an entire city gets priced out, it's much easier to
argue.

~~~
kevingadd
High price goods and services push low price goods and services out of the
market in a place like SF where space is at a premium and the rich might
otherwise patronize lower-cost establishments.

If a place that charges $10 for high-tech tacos moves in next door, the place
that sells $1 adequate quality tacos is going to get less business from the
techie crowd and as a result may not actually bring in enough revenue to stay
open for the people who can't afford $10 tacos.

I've heard similar thoughts from people running mid-tier restaurants in Palo
Alto.

~~~
sologoub
Ok, the economics may make sense... but I fail to see how it is a "duty" to
effectively subsidize these more affordable establishments.

If you choose to spend you hard-earned money in a way that I don't approve...
well, it's your money.

------
signed0
Newsflash, large cities have luxury stores that sell fancy things for lots of
money. You'll find all the the examples also exist in any other large city.

------
ibejoeb
Well that's sure not what I thought it was going to be.

Also, most of the these illustrations are just bad:

> Someone creates a business for consumers with too much money... like black-
> car, chauffeured rides.

Regardless of what you think of Uber as a company, it's a great idea, and
there's not really anything luxurious about it. It costs a little more than a
taxi and is definitely on par with other car services. When I'm in LA, I use
it all the time. Beats having me drive around between clubs, right? What I use
it to get to is much more pretentious that the car itself.

> See: Blue Bottle coffee.

Does the author know anything about coffee? The real stuff is going to be
expensive.

> bourgie businesses...buzzwords like “organic” and “fair trade” and
> “artisanal,”

These things have specific meanings. This statement smacks of anti-
intellectualism (and coming from right-wing me, that sounds a little funny.)
Are you really going hate on fair trade? How can you begin rationalize that
with *bourgie"?

------
kfcm
Overpriced food and other "staple" items is a reality everywhere, not just SF.

For instance, for $4 you can get a regular cookie ($1.99) and fountain drink
($1.90) at multiple midwestern city locations of Panera. I pay more at my
locally-owned coffee shops, but the cookies are bigger and hand-made.

Another example is a lunch meal I've grabbed on occasion since 2000 at a local
cafe in mid-sized midwestern city. Back in the day, it was $4.25. It's now
$6.75. Same food, same portion size, higher price.

The problem is two-fold. On one hand, inflation and costs are driving up
costs. On the other, everyone wants to be seen as "upscale" and--in proving PT
Barnum correct--will pay dearly for that appearance.

~~~
hearty778
Incorrect. Walmart and Target sell food much cheaper than your locally-owned
coffee shops.

------
rayiner
I recently moved from New York to Philadelphia. There is a lot less money
here, especially at the top end. New York County (Manhattan) has a per capita
income of $59k, versus $21k for Philadelphia County. In a way, it's kind of
refreshing. Much less glam, more "well-maintained 1980's construction." Nobody
walking down the streets with $200 yoga pants, and I don't even know what
would be the equivalent here of 5th Ave. in NYC or Michigan Ave. in Chicago.
And even if there was something equivalent, I don't know who would go there.
New York has bankers, Chicago has traders, San Francisco has internet
millionaires and VCs, but Philadelphia is missing that large class of high-
spending "working rich."

------
debt
I just ate at Kronenburger for the first time. I JUST moved here from Chicago.
We were a party of four, all got burgers and a bunch of starters. Total cost:
$60. This would have easily been upwards of 80-100 at Kuma's in Chicago.

It really depends on where you go. I've found that overall, dining out is much
cheaper here. I just got lunch the other day at St. Francis Fountain. With
drinks, the total cost was about $20. Something similar, like going to say the
White Palace or 11 City Diner downtown in Chicago would have easily cost
double that.

Maybe this guy has never lived anywhere but here in SF, but dining out here
seems much cheaper.

EDIT: The burger at Kronenburger was awesome too.

~~~
presty
it's a woman

------
doctorstupid
_So why do we pay more when we can’t tell the difference?_

To answer this one must realize the true nature of these services. Their main
product isn't in physical goods such as food or clothing. Rather, it's a
psychological product. Customers are paying for the affirmation that their
tastes are superior. For that they are more than willing to pay extra.
Expensive toast is really a psychological indulgence rather than a culinary
one.

~~~
boomzilla
This is something I've been thinking all along, but it's probably a little bit
more than just "status affirmation". It is also about enriching life
experience, where you sort of value things that happen less frequently more.

~~~
doctorstupid
I agree, status affirmation is but one of many motives. An appropriate catch-
all may be that things of this matter are primarily theatrical in nature.
Which is fine, until everyone begins acting and we forget what the real thing
was.

------
agwa
I've lived in the SFBA for nearly my whole life and for as long as I can
remember SF has been kind of pretentious with food, even before the recent
tech boom. My non-tech worker friends who are long time residents are into it,
but my tech worker friends who moved here for jobs are not. So I don't think
the food thing has anything to do with the tech industry.

The astronomical rent is a different matter, of course...

------
h4xr
This article is so based in false premises its hard to know where to start.
For 1) San Francisco has the highest minimum wage in the country. 2)
California has an high sales tax with a base of 7% and 8.75% in "the city".
She also choose a trendy place for her $6 dollar breakfast that and taxes are
a large reason for the amount.

I think what everyone really notices is the exorbitant rent prices in "the
city". The reason for that is rent control and subsidized housing which
artificially lowers the supply of housing thus raising prices. I am techie
living in a crappy part of SF in a crappy building since I don't want to pay
half my salary in rent. Across from me is a Mercy housing complex with an
income limit of 30k. They enjoy large rooms, views and cheaper rent than me
but no blames pricing on that. Its all the techies fault for bringing income
and demand to "the city".

~~~
dragonwriter
> the reason for that is rent control and subsidized housing which
> artificially lowers the supply of housing thus raising prices.

That's a peripheral reason.

The fundamental reason is geography, which both limits the supply available
real estate near the core of the City, increases the for real estate in the
City, and makes it expensive to build travel conduits to reduce the travel
time of commute-suitable housing outside the city.

~~~
potatolicious
I disagree. Much of Manhattan is now _cheaper_ than SF, and it faces all of
the same challenges. Heck, Manhattan doesn't even have the benefit of being
connected via land on one side, and its total area is considerably smaller.
Getting _anywhere_ off Manhattan requires crossing water.

But yet its real estate availability is much higher than SF, and its
commutable feeder cities/suburbs are innumerable.

The fundamental problem is political. San Francisco is a desirable place to
live - tech industry or otherwise - but everyone wants in, and once they get
in, they do everything in their power to ensure no one else gets in. It is
literally the most development-hostile city I've ever seen.

San Francisco is expensive because San Franciscans would rather starve, see
people evicted, see an exodus of the people and culture that made the city
famous, suffer incredible transportation problems, etc etc, than lose a single
dainty Victorian house on their street.

Forget sustainable development. Forget development that aligns to existing
neighborhood characteristics. Politically speaking, the only development plan
on the table in SF is no development whatsoever.

~~~
dragonwriter
> I disagree. Much of Manhattan is now cheaper than SF, and it faces all of
> the same challenges.

Not all of them on the demand side (e.g., climate.)

And even if everything else was the same, rent control wouldn't explain the
difference, because Manhattan has that, too.

~~~
potatolicious
Rent control in Manhattan is very different from rent control in SF. For one
thing, the number of rent controlled units is _extremely_ low - the source of
every sitcom episode about inheriting a dead relative's apartment.

There's rent regulation, which is closer to what SF calls rent control, but
even the proportion of regulated apartments in NYC is much lower than in SF.
SF's rent control is based on year of construction, and due to the
construction-hostile politics of modern SF, that means a _lot_ of units in SF
are controlled.

NYC on the other hand has a lot more new construction which aren't regulated,
and even the regulated apartments are steadily falling out of regulation (this
was intentional - unlike SF, rent regulation is a mechanism to prevent sudden
price fluctuations, not a permanent means to suppress rent).

The rent control situation in NYC is _very_ different from the situation in
SF.

------
abhiv
I read a lot of articles on HN nowadays that are part of what I think of as
"SF exceptionalism" \-- articles around the idea that things in SF are somehow
very different than in other places. Even when couched in the form of a
complaint, as this article is, it's hard not to think that what the author is
actually doing is showing off about how rich their city is -- look, toast and
coffee here costs $6!

I've lived in the Bay Area a long time and this sort of attitude puzzles me.
There are plenty of rich areas up and down the Valley, and many places where a
$6 breakfast is not something to write an article about. But yes, because it
happens in SF it must be special.

------
leokun
I go to Burger King on market and 10th and get a $3 burger. You could spend
$10 at Super-Duper or whatever, or you could go a block down to McDondald's at
the Montgomery station exit and buy something from their dollar menu.

------
baddox
What makes young wealthy tech people "overprivileged"? Where does the "over"
come from? By what measure do they have "too much" money?

~~~
newnewnew
To the left, you are "privileged" when you put in a decade of schooling and
work long hours to improve your marketable skills to make over the median
income, especially if you are white, Asian, male, or straight.

~~~
beachstartup
judging from your rhetoric, i gather the right trying to recruit asians these
days?

~~~
woofyman
When will straight, white males finally hold positions of power and privilege
!

~~~
newnewnew
Call me what you like, but I look forward to a day when nobody's hard work is
discounted as "privilege" because they were born in group X, and nobody
assumes that they know everything about you because of your superficial
phenotype.

------
level09
I don't think it is really related to tech, I'm in Dubai where we have no
tech, and we pay even more in many places for food/coffee and even clothes.
probably its more like a cultural/human nature thing?

[http://www.raptitude.com/2010/07/your-lifestyle-has-
already-...](http://www.raptitude.com/2010/07/your-lifestyle-has-already-been-
designed/)

------
jasiek
Substitute techies for bankers and you've got yourself a description of
London.

------
weisser
Coincidentally Blue Bottle started selling $!50 pajamas today...

[http://www.bluebottlecoffee.com/products/pajamas](http://www.bluebottlecoffee.com/products/pajamas)

------
pessimizer
The tech industry ruined SF in the late 90s. Live/work spaces and the
attraction of the Mission to .commers ruined SF. I don't think anything
happening now is making it any worse.

------
umsm
Honestly, I would find a better place to work and live. When you live paycheck
to paycheck with a good salary, you're going to become tired very soon.

------
toasterlovin
So long as grocery stores exist, cost of eating at restaurants has zero
correlation to cost of living. WTF?!?!

------
maxcan
This article is a great example of why people should be able to downvote
stories on HN.

------
StandardFuture
All I know is that I want some of that Tech density to spread out to Texas.
Texas right now is probably one of (if not THE) top states to start/grow a
business in. If you're in SF and you're young (and/or willing) come over to
Texas and get rich over the next 10 years, then go live wherever you want with
your future partner and kids. ;)

~~~
seanmcdirmid
But then you have to live in Texas; even Austin still has some of that icky
Texas non planning left in it, as well as dumpster divers everywhere,
something I never saw in the Bay Area.

~~~
mattlong
Texan currently living in SF here. You'd be hard-pressed to convince me that
Austin or any other major city in Texas is dirtier or grungier than SF[1].
I've gotten used to it now, but SF really is an amazingly dirty place. Going
back to San Antonio or Austin is literally a breath of fresh air compared to
here.

[1] You said Bay Area, but lets at least try to compare apples to apples.

~~~
seanmcdirmid
Texas can be pretty grungy (downtown Dallas) and is fairly sterile suburban
when dirt isn't involved. Austin core is quite nice, but the poverty is just
weird: there are no obvious homeless people, but plenty of people living in
their cars. San Antonia is also a nice city in its core.

I would never live in Texas again because of the heat, as well as the values
even in liberal Austin. Also, I don't like to drive everywhere.

------
total__C
the solution: quit journalising and start selling $200 yoga pants!

------
beachstartup
geez. waaaaaay back in 2007 i remember la boulange on fillmore (about 4 blocks
from "the mill", apparently) did a croissant and a coffee for less than 3
bucks... i used to go there in the mornings with spare change i found around
my place from the night before.

