
Ask HN: Germany vs. Canada for Tech Jobs? - startuplife01
I&#x27;m 25M from India and looking into settling in either Berlin or Toronto to build my career in tech. I&#x27;m not considering the US because of its visa issues.<p>Both Berlin and Toronto seem to have some tech scene going on. Cost of living in Toronto is quite high compared to Berlin. It seems it&#x27;ll be easier to save money in Berlin to work towards financial independence.<p>On the other hand, tech companies in Canada pay peanuts and the high cost of living leaves quite a small amount to save each month. However, once a Canadian citizen, there is a possiblity to get transferred to a Silicon Valley arm of a US company from Canada (using the TN visa) and hence receive a higher compensation.<p>How would you compare between the two countries for building a career in tech for an immigrant?
======
omouse
>tech companies in Canada pay peanuts

This is because:

\- Canadians are happy to accept whatever wages they are given (the "smart"
Canadians move to the US to get higher salaries)

\- immigrants to Canada are happy to accept whatever wages they are given

With those two factors, you're not going to make a lot of money in Toronto
unless you're working a US company (Google, Amazon, and so on) and even then
it'll be less than US counter-parts.

Berlin is a better choice because you can easily travel around Europe and
there are more markets. It's also a faster flight back to India if you're
visiting family.

>However, once a Canadian citizen, there is a possiblity to get transferred to
a Silicon Valley arm of a US company from Canada (using the TN visa) and hence
receive a higher compensation.

This is what I'm talking about. The employer will dangle this prize in front
of you for as long as they can and will continue to hold off on promotions and
keep your salary the same for as long as possible. This is why Canadian
salaries remain low, because there will be another sucker that comes along and
will also be offered the same "we'll give you a promotion in a few years!" or
"we'll transfer you to the US soon! very very soon!" line and they'll accept
it.

>How would you compare between the two countries for building a career in tech
for an immigrant?

Is immigration _required_? Because if not, all you need is a good internet
connection, a good computer, and _knowledge_ lots and lots of _knowledge_ to
distinguish your skills from others and get the higher freelancing rates.

~~~
hacknat
This is changing. I work with Canadian colleagues at a remote-friendly
company, and they make the same salary as the folks in NYC and SV, taking
conversion into account (most make >200k CD). I also know that Shopify pays
very well. Canadian tech is catching up in compensation terms, and the
dominoes are going to start following as demand picks up.

~~~
rcastano
Would you care to share which companies you know that pay equal salaries? I'm
close to 200k CAD in total comp working in Vancouver but that's still around
40% less of what colleagues in the States are making.

~~~
hacknat
My question for you though is, is it much less? Americans have to save way
more money for retirement than Canadians. I bet your fully loaded costs are
close.

~~~
tenpies
I believe the last time we ran the numbers it wasn't that drastic. The
mandatory retirement saving in Canada (Canada Pension Plan) is quite bad,
can't really be maxed out beyond a very low benefit, and is almost criminal
for your beneficiaries if you die before retirement. It is certainly than
nothing, but definitely not better than taking the same money and placing it
in a tax sheltered index fund.

------
foopdoopfoop
American living in Germany here. (I also speak pretty decent German.)

I think it's hard to compare two countries like this. There's a lot more than
just the objective differences--it's easy to be miserable in an objectively
"better" country.

I am absolutely miserable in Germany. I don't have a particularly good reason
to be; I just hate it. It simply disagrees with me, even though--objectively--
Germany is a better place to live than many of the other countries I lived in.

My advice is apply for jobs in both countries. Get on-site interviews, and
_go_ to Toronto and Berlin. It's important that you see for yourself, so you
can really make an informed decision.

The bit you wrote about transferring to Silicon valley, etc seems premature to
me. You don't really know what you'll be doing in the future: neither choice
here is bad. Choose which seems the best _now_ , unless you have a _specific,
realistic goal_ for the future that one option enables better than the other.
But without that: go to both cities and just see what you like.

Comparing salaries is also premature: you don't even have offers yet. It's all
just conjecture. If both cities are serious contenders for you, _apply_ to
jobs in both and see.

(Besides, German CS salaries are definitely nothing to write home about
either. And many things in Germany are more expensive: cars, gas, electricity,
basically all consumer goods, etc)

~~~
fakeElonMusk
I'm curious why you are miserable? I live in Prague and visit Germany 3-4
times a year and really enjoy it. Better food at restaurants and much better
selection of food in the stores. However, I am not paying German taxes, health
care or rent so I don't know much about actually living there.

~~~
foopdoopfoop
On paper, I ought to be fine here. Germanic life doesn't jive with me, that's
all. I feel very culturally isolated and alienated and would go so far as to
say that I find the German aesthetic/way-of-life somehow depressing.

I spent various parts of my childhood in Germanic countries and was going
through a difficult time then as a kid. I think I've been unable to separate
that time from my perception/understanding of Germanic countries and that that
has a lot to do with it as well.

~~~
magnusdeus123
Plenty of Germans I've met here in Montreal echo the same concern; that the
German way-of-life is depression inducing. Everything works decently well but
it saps the strength from you to have the kind of vivacity and challenges
that, while don't make life any safer or easier, make life worth living.

Atleast, that's my interpretation of what I've been told. It's a little what
English Canada felt to me now that I've moved to French Canada. It's safe and
fine but nothing's really happening. Your relationships aren't going anywhere;
your career is basically about paying an oversized mortgage.

~~~
anthony_barker
As a canadian who as moved to Europe here are some of my points that have
nothing to do with money but a bit.

1) More indians in toronto more food and less likely to fee lonely 2) Make
more in EU but costs other than housing are more 3) Easier to start a company
in Canada 4) Easier to fit in culturally in Canada 5) Too many immigrants to
Toronto make competition killer 6) Need a car

------
heffer
German/Canadian here. Was born and raised in Germany to a Canadian parent.
Have lived and worked in Cologne, Berlin, Mountain View, San Francisco and now
Toronto.

Some random thoughts and musings that might not matter to you:

\- All in all, having made the switch from a rather high paying (by German
standards) job for a DAX30 company to a Silicon Valley-based US employer in
Canada, my gross pay decreased but my take home increased due to significantly
lower taxes in Canada. After all taxes and deductions my take home pay in
Germany was about 51% of gross, in Canada it is about 67%. On the bottom line
I come out about equal due to significantly higher cost of living in Canada,
especially Toronto. My groceries spend is factor 2.5, my rent spend is factor
4.5, internet at home is factor 2, cell phone is factor 3 compared to Germany.
Pretty much everything but clothes is much more expensive in Canada.

\- Also the availability of things through online shops or stores is very
different. In Germany we have Services such as Geizhals.de which allows you to
compare prices on very specific items across hundreds of online stores. Amazon
is usually not the cheapest or best option. In Canada, Amazon is usually the
only option. Or ordering from the US and paying duties and fees. This is
especially true if you into crafty or electrical engineering things (parts and
materials).

\- As a visible minority Berlin is going to be fine (if not great!). Other
parts of Germany might be less pleasant. I believe physically you'd be safer
in Berlin that you'd be in Toronto due to overall significantly lower gun
violence.

\- Depending on how the US administration goes the TN visa might not be a long
term option. It certainly isn't, even today, if you plan to stay in the US
long term.

\- Banking in the US and Canada are horrible when compared to the EU. Also:
The German credit score system is basically the inverse of the US/Canadian
system. Nothing on your file == good.

\- I personally like winters. Toronto gets lots of snow, Berlin I find to be
exceptionally cold and damp during winters but rarely it gets snow. I prefer
snow over dampness.

\- 24 days of paid leave is the legal minimum for a full time position at 6
days per week, 20 days if you work 5 days a week in Germany. That will vary
wildly in the US and Canada.

And many more things I haven't got the time right now to list. But if you're
interested I can go on.

~~~
startuplife01
Hey, this is very helpful. Would love for you to list more things.

------
jamil7
Berlin salaries are lower but standards of living are better and immigrating
is quite straightforward, especially if you get a job offer. A blue card visa
will fast track you to residency. Just make sure you start learning German
ASAP, people will tell you that you don't need it in Berlin but it will make
your life outside of work so much easier if you can at least speak and read at
a basic level.

~~~
chrisked
It depends. I have a contrarian view here. I’m German and would advise against
learning German for OP. This advice counts for Berlin.m only. The opportunity
costs are just too high. In Berlin you do not need to learn German. Also it’s
way harder in Berlin than in any other German city. Just make sure you live in
districts with a high expat density, make Some German friends and focus on
your career. OP is young and it seems he wants to build his career.

That said from my experience I see 7 years as a cut off point where expats
start to leave the city. If you are quite confident that you’ll stay >7 years
or even consider other cities in Germany start learning German ASAP :)

~~~
DoreenMichele
Thirty years ago, I lived in Germany as a military wife for nearly four years.
Pretty much everywhere I needed to go and interact, everyone spoke fluent
English and businesses near the American military post had signs in English
and catered to the Americans.

I showed up knowing some German because my mother is German. My fluency only
improved marginally in the time I was there because most Germans I met spoke
English and were thrilled to have the opportunity to practice their English
with a native speaker, so I was actively denied opportunities to improve my
German because they would promptly begin speaking English to me.

When we did day trips to do touristy stuff, it was helpful that I knew more
German than most Americans there. I carried a German-English dictionary with
me and looked up words I saw on signs. (You can now do that much easier on a
smartphone.)

It may actually be nigh impossible to learn German, even if you want to. I
wanted to, so badly. Almost no one would speak it with me.

I am still not fluent in German and it would be too hard to get there via
intentional self study to be worth the effort to me. It should have been
vastly easier to learn through immersion while living there, but almost no one
would speak German with me _in Germany._

It quite aggravated me. In my youth, I wanted to be a translator and I wanted
to learn seven languages fluently. I know a smattering of German, French,
Greek, Spanish and Russian (and took French and classical Greek in college).
I'm not fluent in any of them.

I've turned my attention to learning languages like HTML and CSS. I'm not
fluent in them either, but they are infinitely more useful to me in day-to-day
life.

~~~
dirkt
> It may actually be nigh impossible to learn German, even if you want to. I
> wanted to, so badly. Almost no one would speak it with me.

The trick is to be direct about that you want to speak German. Germans are
direct, it's not impolite. "Entschuldigen Sie, können wir Deutsch sprechen?
Ich muss es üben." will get the majority to switch to German.

And if you have German friends and they know you've been in Germany now for a
longer period, and some stage they'll decide "Jetzt muss sie aber wirklich mal
Deutsch lernen" and start to speak exclusively German to you.

The "I am polite and speaking English" thing is usually only applied to
strangers.

~~~
DoreenMichele
I'm trying to think also of how you would increase your social exposure to
settings where you would just socialize with native speakers. That's what
needs to happen to get immersion. I'm coming up blank.

I got to practice a little at my first apartment. It was a downstairs unit and
the rest of the building was the home of my landlord. It was a tiny farm
village about twenty minutes from the American post.

I broke the lease and moved because my baby was very sick there. My next
apartment was a four story building, but all the tenants were American. Then I
finally got quarters and the entire neighborhood was American with American
services (grocery store, daycare, gas station).

I actively tried to shop at German stores and things like that. It turned out
to not be practical. It made more sense to shop at the American stores.

We needed living room furniture. We went downtown to shop. It was all giant
shranks.

It didn't provide the kind of storage we needed, it was out of our price range
and I knew that taking it home to the US would be a bad idea. We mostly needed
shelves for books. German apartments have fewer closets and windows than
American homes, so they have long expanses of wall. Shranks are designed to
work in that kind of housing.

When you take a shrank back to America, you can't easily find housing that
will hold it. A friend of mine had a custom house built in the US to get a
wall to fit her shrank. I went house hunting with my sister. We looked at a
house where they added a room -- with a stupidly long hallway just for that
room -- to hold their German shrank. They were selling the shrank with the
house. The listing said "shrank remains with house."

So, disappointed, we returned to base and bought American bookshelves. It made
far more sense.

We did day trips on the weekends to visit castles. This is a tourist activity.
It's not conducive to long conversations with locals.

I visited my best friend when she was in Germany visiting her relatives. She
and I stayed up late talking to catch up -- in English, of course. She spoke
fluent German, but we hadn't seen each other in some time and wouldn't again
for sometime. She didn't invite me over to teach me German. It made no sense
to try to speak German together. We were together to get caught up. English
made more sense.

I took scuba diving with a German company. They spoke much better English than
I did German. I was still breastfeeding. It made no sense for me to join
everyone for a beer after class at a local pub. I couldn't drink and I needed
to get home to my baby. It ended up being too exhausting and I dropped out of
the class even though they had a no refund policy.

All my efforts to connect with people in settings where I should have had more
exposure to German basically went nowhere.

I could make small talk with waiters at restaurants or whatever, but I just
wasn't finding myself in social settings where it made sense for others to
expect me to make the effort to really engage in serious conversation in
German.

I'm leaving this comment as food for thought for other people who may be
considering living elsewhere and/or desire to learn another language. I might
have learned more German had I continued to live in a tiny farm village where
no one spoke English, but I couldn't do that because it was making my baby
sick. All other social settings I found myself in failed to foster
conversation in German.

If you do what makes sense to make your life work, you may just not have that
many opportunities to practice German, even while living in Germany. Luck and
circumstance are factors, but I was actively seeking to escape the American
bubble I lived in and get out into the local culture and largely failing to
find opportunities to talk with people conversationally in German. I already
knew enough German to help make tourist activities easier for us to navigate.
That doesn't result in conversational fluency.

I spent years listening to tapes in one language or another, doing home study
courses, watching TV in Spanish with subtitles, looking up Russian words on
the internet, etc etc. Trying to improve my exposure to other languages was a
hobby for a lot of years.

It's never gotten me anywhere near the kind of fluency I desired and I've
never found much real use for any of it. It was a largely pointless hobby.

I eventually quit actively working on it. It wasn't fruitful, and not for lack
of trying.

------
lnsru
Go to Switzerland if you can. I have no clue about taxes in Canada, but in
Germany it’s not fun. As a single person household you will be heavily taxed.
Be ready to give a ~half away for the state. Saving for retirement will be
also taxed heavily. Or at least I wasn’t able to find good investment vehicle
to save taxes. Unemployed wife plus kids could help here. Public health
insurance is ok. Glases, dental problems and modern procedures you must pay by
yourself. It’s not expensive: minor surgery costs 300-500€. Berlin has
skyrocketing housing cost (as probably all big cities nowadays). I would not
go the former Eastern Germany as a foreigner. Colleague from Philippines told
lots of stories about ugly situations in Dresden. I also wouldn’t accept offer
under €70k in Berlin. Of course, it’s doable with €45k, but I am not sure if
it’s worth all migration effort. Fresh graduates start with €55k nowadays. In
southern Germany even more. But be aware, Germany’s economy is slowing down,
hiring process might take longer than couple years ago.

~~~
legulere
> Saving for retirement will be also taxed heavily.

There already is a public pension system, that should cover the biggest part
of the pension. Saving anything beyond public the public pension system is
taxed like normal capital yields. Capital yields are taxed as 26% or the tax
rate of the normal income tax, whichever is lower.

> dental problems and modern procedures you must pay by yourself.

Basic dental healthcare is included (biannual checkups, fillings, getting
teeth pulled, ...). I don't know what you mean with modern procedures that
don't get paid. Healthcare pays everything that's medically necessary and some
stuff on top (e.g. the contraceptive pill is included until you're 22).

> I also wouldn’t accept offer under €70k in Berlin. Of course, it’s doable
> with €45k, but I am not sure if it’s worth all migration effort. Fresh
> graduates start with €55k nowadays.

That seems a bit high in my experience, especially as Berlin is one of the
areas with lower pay.

~~~
lnsru
It’s a bit naive to believe, that public pension system will bring you far. My
friend earned a lot back then, now she gets 1700€ plus owns her flat. Now it’s
almost impossible to buy a flat even in Berlin if you don’t have rich parents,
that can help with €100k.

As you write “basic healthcare” is included. For advanced stuff you pay by
yourself.

€30k is Aldi cashier’s salary in Southern Germany. But Blue Card has also very
low limit, €42€: [https://www.auswaertiges-
amt.de/de/newsroom/buergerservice-f...](https://www.auswaertiges-
amt.de/de/newsroom/buergerservice-faq-kontakt/faq/02a-blue-card-eu/606572)

~~~
romanovcode
> For advanced stuff you pay by yourself.

What is this "advanced stuff" you're talking about. With public health
insurance in Germany you'll get open-heart surgery for free if you need one.

The only thing you won't be getting is "just-for-looks" type of treatments
e.g. breast implants, white implants at the back of your mouth etc..

------
haywirez
Berlin is still a great place to live, but dev salaries are low and seem to
stuck at a ceiling of about €70-75K/y gross for senior/lead positions (there
are exceptions, but even this is a hard sell to get). For a long time this was
"justified" by the allegedly low cost of living. This is not true anymore, the
city is rapidly getting more expensive (housing) and the leverage has all but
vanished. Senior devs who are moving here, please smash the ceiling and ask
for more (you deserve it).

~~~
yashap
Senior dev at a Canadian tech company here. At a good Canadian tech company in
Vancouver or Toronto, as a senior+ dev, you can make $120-140K CAD (83-96K
EUR). You can make substantially less than that as a senior+ dev too (plenty
of senior devs making $80-100K CAD), but $120-140K is moderately common. And
if you work for a Canadian office of a big American tech company (for example
Amazon has a major presence in Vancouver), you can make a lot more.

Canadian costs of living are high, and the salaries are low compared to the
states, but they’re still some of the better non-American tech salaries out
there.

------
nickwarren
Working for some time in the valley as an east coast Canadian native, I
absolutely agree about peanut pay. That being said, in my experience it feels
like the quality of life is still higher in Canada. In the valley, it feels
around every corner there is a landlord/private healthcare/other event that
wants to drain finances "because tech worker". I returned to Canada, and
despite a lower salary it feels so much more sustainable.

------
an_d_rew
As a Canadian – born citizen who just recently became a US permanent resident
I would caution you on how “easy“ the Canada to US Route appears to be but may
not actually be.

My permanent residency was super straightforward. My PhD is from a US
institution. I have a long research career and a very long software
development professional resume, and it still took three years.

Be aware that the TN work permit can have a serious downside: it’s so easy and
simple and straightforward to get for Canadian citizens that many employers
will stonewall or simply not consider going the green card route. That’s what
happened to me many years ago even before the current immigration insanity,
which will likely make things worse for you.

In general Canadians have to go to the H1 B route. It is vaguely possible to
apply for a green card while under a TN work permit, but because of the way
the rules are interpreted by USCIS, most immigration lawyers with experience
in the matter strongly strongly strongly advise against it.

~~~
laurencerowe
I believe that permanent residency wait times are based on country of birth
not citizenship so for getting a green card becoming a Canadian citizen first
would make no difference, only open up the possibility of working in the US on
a TN. IANAL etc.

~~~
startuplife01
This is true. It's based on country of birth.

------
jeroh
I visited Berlin a few times and it seemed like a nice place to live.

Don't forget that you want to visit your family in India. I think in Germany
you typically get more vacation. Also consider the flight time. Berlin is much
closer to India than Toronto.

An interesting non-standard choice for a country to immigrate to is Japan.
Tokyo is a fun place with lots of foreigners. Applying for a visa is quick and
reasonable, which is the complete opposite of US.

I found that after you have a certain amount in your bank account, you become
one of those annoying rich people who tell others that money doesn't give you
happiness and there other important things in life.

~~~
jamil7
I always (probably ignorantly) assumed immigrating to Japan to be difficult
based on news articles about tight immigration laws. What is the job market
like without speaking Japanese?

~~~
jeroh
There is a special visa for highly skilled immigrants. If you hold an advanced
degree (MSc or PhD), have a highly paying job offer, and are young, then
you'll get a visa easily and there is a quick path to permanent residency
(after 1 year in the best case). If you're not highly qualified, then I guess
things are more difficult. From what I know the rules are straightforward,
reasonable, and the visa application is processed quickly. My perspective may
be limited, so take everything I say with a grain of salt.

I don't know much about job market, but I met many expats working as software
engineers and they didn't speak any Japanese.

~~~
Danieru
The highly skilled visa is good for a fast track to perminent residency. A
regular work visa is easy to get provided you have a university degree and a
job offer.

Still I would not recommend coming to Japan unless it was a life goal. This is
not an easy country to live in or build wealth in. Both the language and
career will be playing life on hard mode. I love it here, but it was a life
goal I was willing to trade for.

~~~
millirem
Definitely this. If you have a university degree and a company wants to hire
you, a work visa is straightforward to get. But work culture, language, daily
affairs - everything here requires some adjustment that you should really
think through before moving your entire life here.

------
break_the_bank
Have you considered London? Google, Facebook, Amazon and a lot of Big N
companies have significant presence there.

The startup scene is great! Monzo, GoCardless, OakNorthAI etc are some
startups that are doing well.

You'll get PR in five years and citizenship in 6. If you are in a Big N you
can ask to be transferred to the American office if you want to after 18
months.

There will be plenty of flights to India and if you fly via the Middle East
they will be really cheap flights. As someone(Indian) who lived there for a
bit, I had so many people visit me! You will find Indian food easily and will
easily make friends.

~~~
ClumsyPilot
I am a foreign born developer in Uk, and I reccomend against it. The
immigration system is difficult to deal with, especially if you are not
single. Most IT companies do not sponsor visas, so your choice is quite
narrow.

Germany has a far easier immigration system. Don't know about Canada.

~~~
digianarchist
Canada's immigration system is straight fowarded provided you qualify for
Express Entry.

------
mishaker
I share my time between Montreal and Berlin for past five years. in short: if
you are searching money then the answer is definitely Toronto. It is expanding
more and more, tech scene is booming and getting your permanent residency or
even Canadian passport is not that hard if you are determined.

Berlin is a life changing city, once you are there you may see life
differently. You may end up getting a small programming job then being a DJ in
evenings. You cannot go to Berlin with a plan, Berlin will re-planify you.
While the tech scene is going up (specially during recent years because of
blockchain startups) access to money and VCs are far limited. On top of that
although English is ok in Berlin but if don't speak German, competing with
local people is hard.

~~~
magnusdeus123
Montrealer as well. I get the feeling like Montreal would be the best city
between Berlin & Toronto. It's kind of grungy and full of culture like Berlin,
but still authentically Canadian in terms of being open-minded.

Moved here from Vancouver and it's totally where I'm rooted now.

I haven't lived in Toronto but I imagine it's a lot greyer of a city with a
deep hustle, work>life mentality. Not to mention the unaffordable living.

------
parasight
German here. Several of my colleagues are from India. As far as I know they
are quite happy here. One of my former managers is from India. So You can make
a career here.

From what I can see, salaries are diverse. It is possible make decent money
even in Berlin. English is usually not a problem in Berlin. In some companies
English is default. Knowing a bit of German helps of course.

Consider Hamburg too, salaries are better there and it is more secure.

~~~
ArmandGrillet
Why do you consider Hamburg more secure? AFAIK Berlin offers more variety and
Munich more security for tech jobs in Germany.

~~~
fileeditview
I think he means secure as in less crime.

------
k3fernan
A Canadian living in US, so take this with a grain of salt.

Canada is a great place to immigrate too, I would also explore Montreal, it
has more of a research/AI/gaming scene but the cost of living is lower than
Toronto. Don't know about the salaries, I would investigate!

~~~
Maximus9000
Also check out Ottawa. Tech scene there is pretty hot both in Kanata (suburb)
and downtown... although you might find it a bit "sleepy".

~~~
BiggieCheese
Ottawa is nice, but I wouldn't recommend most companies in Kanata unless
you're content with working in a cubicle farm in a bleak, suburban, commercial
park hellscape.

~~~
Maximus9000
Kanata is definitely the heavy hitter in terms of tech jobs, but the downtown
has gotten way hotter in the past 5 years. Shopify, Klipfolio, Pythian,
SurveyMonkey, EDC, etc.

------
Trias11
What you said about Canada is 100% correct.

Peanuts for a pay + add miserable winter weather.

That said Canadian passport is high quality and so far TN-to-Green card is
~2yrs process. Took me 1.5 yrs.

Better than US passport in some aspects - especially that US passport is
essentially a way for IRS to keep you tax hostage no matter where you are.

Can't say about Germany - likely will be some good comments here

~~~
dmode
Just FYI, I believe TN to GC will be quite lengthy for OP since his place of
birth determines the GC quota

~~~
Trias11
Correct, thats important. Might be quite different from my experience

------
kulminate453
I'm a 30M Indian, relocated to Canada about 5 years ago (when I was your age).
I have Permanent Residence here but now moving back to India. The reason is
absolute amount of savings and a better path to financial independence.

I wanted to live in a western country and command a higher salary. US was a
no-go because of obvious visa issues, so went to the closest place which was
Canada. I've been employed here for 5 years now, and definitely earned and
saved a lot more than I used to back in India. But, as the years went by, I
the downsides of living here started taking a toll like the brutal weather and
lack of interesting opportunities. I continued traveling to India to visit
family and was updated with the tech there. I now realize the job market in
India has grown significantly and given the cost of living, you could
effectively save the same amount at a good senior-level job position in
Bangalore, Hyderabad etc. I have friends there who save more than I do in
Toronto on a 200k CAD salary, with equivalent quality of life.

Sure, I could apply for citizenship, then go to the US on a TN but that's not
going to make things easy either. For financial independence, what matters
most to me are two things: absolute amount of money I can save/invest TODAY;
and my physical health so that once I retire early I'm still in good health to
do the things I want to. I could work in Silicon Valley, but if I lived a good
healthy (mental and physical) life the amount of money saved will drop. I'd
have to live like a miser given the CoL, something I'm not willing to do. I
can live frugal but not like a miser. I must also mention that I'm married now
and planning kids in the next year or two. The cost of childcare will
significantly affect my CoL if continued in Canada. This may not apply to you
now, but could in the future. One more point: most of our vacation days are
spent in traveling to India visiting family and we haven't actually had a
vacation in 4 years.

I feel the tech scene in India is really booming and lots of interesting
startups are coming up in Bangalore, Pune. Companies like Amazon are also
expanding operations and hiring massively in Hyderabad while paying well.

I have already done the calculations and given my current offer in Hyderabad,
it'll take me about 6-7 years to retire and 10-12 years if done in Canada.

~~~
blocked_again
My main reasons I want to move to Canada over staying in India are

* Pollution in cities like Bangalore, Delhi

* Water scarcity issues which cities like Bangalore are already affected by and might get more severe.

* Overpoppulation and over competetion. I have no fucking clue whether my Children would be able to goto a decent college because of the over population and competetion.

* Corruption. You life is is valueless if you are not pwerful

* Global warming and rising temparature in the sub continent.

* If robots take over and more people become jobless Canada sounds like a better option than a country with 1.4 Billion people and counting.

------
brenden2
I grew up in Canada (Calgary), and have spent a decent chunk of time in both
cities. I live in NYC now.

If possible, I recommend you take a trip to both cities and see what you like
more. Spend a week in each, and maybe try to go to Toronto in the winter to
see if you like it. Berlin has mild winters and doesn't get much snow, but
Toronto can have harsh winters. Summers in Toronto can be hot and humid, which
you might be used to already (since you said you're from India).

The biggest advantage to Toronto over Germany is the proximity to major US
cities. Like it or not, most of the "tech innovation" is centred in the US.

Also don't count on the TN (which is not a visa, btw) sticking around forever.
If your main reason for going to Canada is border mobility, you're probably
better off staying in Europe. An EU citizen can live and work anywhere in the
EU. Canada and the US have a close relationship, but NAFTA (which is where the
TN comes from) could be gutted whenever the politicians decide that's what
will get them reelected.

All things considered, if I were in your position (knowing what I know) I'd go
to Berlin. It's more trendy, has better public transit, milder weather, and
Europe has much more culture to explore and learn about than Canada (sorry).

~~~
heurisko
Canada's winters must be very harsh (although I already heard a bit about them
from Jordan Peterson on his podcasts).

I'm from the UK and Berlin's winters were harsh for me :).

~~~
BiggieCheese
Most bigger Canadian cities really aren't that bad. Vancouver is particularly
mild, and Toronto winters are fairly tame.

"Real" Canadian winter happens in places you won't find many tech jobs anyway.

------
digianarchist
I don't know why you would use a TN visa for an internal transfer (you should
use an L visa).

Canadian citizenship takes 4 years from landing. Although they are speeding up
the citizenship process so you might be able to do it in 3.5 years. I became
Canadian this year and I've been here for 4 years.

> "tech companies in Canada pay peanuts"

Anecdotally better wages than anywhere in the EU I've found.

~~~
trampoline1443
Odd. 200k cad is the norm for contractors in london, uk. Are you sure your
skills are simply not in demand in most eu countries? From my calculations
when i wanted to move to canada pay is indeed lower than even in east europe
(after tax).

~~~
digianarchist
120 grand is not the norm for contractors in London.

Glassdoor has London at 52k and Toronto at 44k. Rent in London is almost 50%
higher than Toronto and the housing stock in London is awful.

I am talking about full time salaried positions though which rarely break 80k
in London (less than what I am currently making in Toronto). My last offer in
London was a pathetic 45k.

All figures in GBP.

~~~
trampoline1443
I have not heard of salaries as low as 45k cad in london since about 6-7 years
ago.

Unless! The offer you had was bound to a visa. Sponsored developers are indeed
on very very low rates.

------
Pandabob
I'd also encourage you to consider Stockholm. The market is smaller than
Berlin, and the CoL is higher, but the tech scene is extremely vibrant and
lots of Swedish tech companies have good connections to the US. Also, you
don't really need to learn Swedish as everyone speaks very good English.

~~~
wreath
How about the taxes and costs of living compared to say Berlin & social
welfare?

~~~
Pandabob
I don't know the income tax in Germany/Berlin, but in Sweden/Stockholm it's
roughly 30% for (upper) middle-class folks. VAT is quite high and food in
general is a lot more expensive than in Berlin.

~~~
wreath
> and food in general is a lot more expensive than in Berlin.

Interesting. I had the impression food in supermarkets wasn't __that__
expensive compared to Berlin. Restaurants were noticeably more expensive. For
what it's worth, I thought the food quality in Stockholm was a lot better than
in Germany.

~~~
2rsf
> food in supermarkets wasn't __that__ expensive compared to Berlin.

From a recent comparison Stockholm is more expensive, but cost of living has
more than that, using numbeo [0] I see that utilities and childcare are
significantly more expensive in Berlin and this link [1] I can also see that
health care is more expensive in Berlin.

A month public transport ticket costs almost the same (890 SEK vs 81 Euro) and
I think the the Stockholm one covers more distance.

As for market size I don't know how big the difference is since I guess there
are simply more people in Berlin to compensate for the increased number of
companies. From personal and friend's experience I have never seen any problem
finding work during the last years.

[0] [https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-
living/compare_cities.jsp?cou...](https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-
living/compare_cities.jsp?country1=Sweden&city1=Stockholm&country2=Germany&city2=Berlin)

[1] [https://www.settle-in-berlin.com/health-insurance-
germany/](https://www.settle-in-berlin.com/health-insurance-germany/)

~~~
wreath
> From personal and friend's experience I have never seen any problem finding
> work during the last years.

In which city? both?

------
rapind
As a Canadian coder who lived in Toronto for 20 years, I recommend Germany
hands down.

I love my country, but high taxes, housing bubble, stagnant salaries, horrible
choices when it comes to political candidates...

I will say the healthcare is great, and the people are generally awesome (to a
lesser degree in Toronto though).

~~~
h4waii
Sounds like you love your country, but not the City.

Lots of places in Canada other than Toronto, LOTS, that aren't impacted by the
mentions you mention.

~~~
rapind
Housing bubble is everywhere as are stagnant wages. Household debt in Canada
is at a historic high. [https://tradingeconomics.com/canada/households-debt-
to-gdp](https://tradingeconomics.com/canada/households-debt-to-gdp)

------
trampoline1443
I would say avoid germany. They claim to be open and all, so it sounds great
for politics, but if you have dark skin you are pretty much “not to be
trusted”.

~~~
cylinder
it's not even that. even if you are light skinned but have remotely "ethnic"
features you will never be considered German.

------
BiggieCheese
If you're considering Canada, keep Montreal in mind. It has substantially
lower rent prices than other major cities, and still has a healthy tech
sector.

IMO, the only downsides are that it's substantially less multicultural than
Toronto or Ottawa (which is a high bar to meet, tbh), and you'll sometimes
miss out on things if you don't know French (though you can get by with
English).

------
lispm
Generally you would need to learn German. It's possible without, but that
would not be that great in a German speaking country...

------
eps
It's really a no-brainer.

3 years on a permanent resident visa in Canada gives you the citizenship and a
passport that opens up a lot of opportunities. No other country in the world
comes even close to this, Germany included. Canada is also a _very_ nice and
comfortable country, so you may just as well end up staying despite the pay
being higher elsewhere.

~~~
yladiz
This is misleading. 3 years in Germany after permanent residency gives you
citizenship if you pass the requirements, two big ones being language and
generally not allowing dual citizenship[1]. The amount of time to get
permanent residency changes depending on your type of visa, i.e. blue card or
normal work visa.

[1]: Generally meaning there are exceptions, but the default means giving up
your other citizenship(s).

~~~
romanovcode
> 3 years in Germany after permanent residency gives you citizenship if you
> pass the requirements, two big ones being language and generally not
> allowing dual citizenship.

Two wrong assumptions.

1\. One must have lived in Germany legally at minimum 7 years
([https://www.bmi.bund.de/SharedDocs/faqs/EN/themen/migration/...](https://www.bmi.bund.de/SharedDocs/faqs/EN/themen/migration/staatsang/Erwerb_der_deutschen_Staatsbuergerschaft_durch_Eingbuergerung_en.html))

2\. Germany allows dual citizenship in some cases, always allows with EU
states
([https://www.bmi.bund.de/SharedDocs/faqs/EN/themen/migration/...](https://www.bmi.bund.de/SharedDocs/faqs/EN/themen/migration/staatsang/Doppelte_Staatsangehoerigkeit_Mehrstaatigkeit_en.html))

------
lazyant
> However, once a Canadian citizen, there is a possiblity to get transferred
> to a Silicon Valley arm of a US company from Canada (using the TN visa) and
> hence receive a higher compensation.

As a Canadian immigrant, I'd rather people don't come to Canada and get
citizenship as a shortcut to go to another country.

~~~
Trias11
I'd rather have professionals come and be productive no matter where they are
vs. one person come and followed by 25 family members who never learn english
and sit on welfare forever.

~~~
lazyant
I'm OK with coming over and being productive, it's taking citizenship in a
deceptive manner that I object to.

------
lsutigr
In my view, using compensation only to make decisions is flawed as current
compensation is a lagging indicator. 10 years from now, I am certain the
compensation structure that exists today will be very very different [much
like what has happened in the world of Finance and Consulting].

In the 1990's and early 2000's, everyone wanted to be an investment banker or
a consultant. Its only been the last 7 years or so that the salaries in
Technology sector have risen so much. Perhaps over the next decade, software
development will stop paying as much (especially on the variable comp as
companies phase out equity compensation ro general masses).

I would choose my career based on what I like to do and the quality of life I
want to pursue. A lot of that comes down to the cultural integration,
especially as an immigrant. What value system do you associate yourself with?

~~~
tracer4201
I don’t see the compensation structure changing in the short term. In any
case, I wouldn’t base the decision on a future hypothetical. I would rather
earn $X today and invest it over settling for something < $X, independent of
whether $X becomes $Y in the future.

I agree with you on factoring cultural integration - obviously as well as
what’s the mission of the company, what problem are they solving, is that
something that motivates you, etc etc

------
jakozaur
Another possibility. Go work somewhere else in Europe at USA company. Get
transferred to USA on intercompany visa.

~~~
omouse
Yeah this is the way to go. European internet/cellphone plans are also cheaper
than in Canada. So for freelancing or working at a company, it's worthwhile.
Plus you can travel more easily around Europe when you're within an EU
country.

------
kstenerud
I'm a Canadian who has lived and worked in Canada, San Francisco, Japan, and
Germany.

Go to Germany.

They're foreigner friendly, immigration is straightforward albeit bureaucracy
sucks. Quality of life is head and shoulders above. Food is better. People are
nicer. Employers don't dick you around. Housing is cheap.

~~~
yladiz
Although I more or less agree with the above, a point of contention I have is
saying the food is better. The food in Germany is not great. It's generally
not bad, but the food is almost always bland and almost never amazing, and
often just good, not great. I would chalk this up to many restaurants making
Germanized versions of the original -- it is often difficult to find something
that resembles the original version save for a few select cuisines. Compared
to Toronto, the food here (in Berlin) is nothing special.

------
Pxtl
Canadian salaries are generally low and at the same time the major employing
markets have a terrible housing crisis right now.

So you pay California-style cost of living without the California salary.

I like living here and I like my job, but I wouldnt recommend it to somebody
starting out.

------
keiferski
While Berlin is a better city than Toronto, I think you will find that Canada
is far, far more open to immigrants than Germany is. Berlin is multicultural
for Europe, but it's nothing compared to London, Toronto, or New York.

That's not to say that Berlin or Germany are anti-immigrant or that you'll
face hostility, but more that you will have a more difficult time integrating
into the culture. Even someone from a culturally similar country like Belgium
or the Netherlands will never be regarded as a "German", even if he/she lives
in Germany for decades. This isn't the case in the U.S. or Canada, or in a
lesser sense, London.

------
tuxxy
Just moved to Berlin over a month and a half ago. You don't _need_ German, but
it makes everything way easier.

Tech scene is smaller, of course, but there's lots going on. I can definitely
recommend living here, especially if you're into art or music.

------
jbotz
There seems to be some disagreement in the comments about relative salaries in
Berlin and Canada. A tool I've been using to get a rough idea of salaries in
different parts of the world is the GitLab compensation calculator:
[https://about.gitlab.com/handbook/people-
operations/global-c...](https://about.gitlab.com/handbook/people-
operations/global-compensation/calculator/)

According to this, salaries for software engineers are about the same in
Berlin and Toronto (about 0.55 of Silicon Valley salaries).

------
acd
Consider moving to Scandinavia. Great tech scene! Good vacation policies up to
6 weeks of paid vacation. Less hierarchical meaning you can have a bigger
impact. Good parental leave. Good work life balance.

~~~
hobolord
any spots in mind? I never know where to go search

~~~
2rsf
Stockholm is a good start, see somewhere else in this thread

------
chrisked
Cannot talk about Canada but I’m willing to speak about Berlin. How the tech
scene evolved during the last 12 years and where I think it’s heading. Reach
out via contact on my profile. Happy to jump on a call.

~~~
journalctl
Not sure if you noticed, but you don’t have any contact information listed on
your profile. If you set the email address, only you and HN can see it; for
everyone else, there isn’t anything visible.

~~~
chrisked
I recently changed to a keybase profile only due to spam. However, thanks for
pointing it out. Maybe it still creates too much friction. Folks can reach me
via ck at firma dot de.

~~~
yorwba
There's no keybase information in your profile either.

~~~
chrisked
I’m confused and you are correct. Being logged-in I see my about section
filled with data. If I open my profile as anonymous user with incognito mode I
do not see any content. Not sure what’s happening. Thank you for pointing this
out.

~~~
yorwba
Maybe this is related to
[https://keybase.io/a/i/r/d/r/o/p/spacedrop2019](https://keybase.io/a/i/r/d/r/o/p/spacedrop2019)

I saw a bunch of new accounts spamming their Keybase proof in all the wrong
places. Maybe HN did something to combat the spam and it accidentally hit your
account.

Try contacting them at hn@ycombinator.com

~~~
chrisked
Thank you. I will reach out.

------
mabbo
Salary depends on the company. Amazon and Uber are both in Toronto paying
pretty well. Toronto is also Canada's banking centre and the big banks have
some roles (not all) that pay well.

------
shitgoose
interesting, that you say salaries in Berlin are higher than in Toronto. i
always thought it was other way around. can someone give ballpark numbers
about Berlin fulltime and contract rates?

~~~
hocuspocus
While you'll meet idiots who move to Berlin for 50k€, decent companies pay
70-80k€ for a mid-level developer. 90-100k€ isn't out of reach with 10+ years
of experience, above that you probably need to switch to some kind of
management.

Contract rates can be anywhere between 500€ (6+ months contract for a
relatively inexperienced freelancer) to 1200€/day for specific and short-term
gigs. Grossly speaking you need to charge twice your desired net salary in
order to cover all the mandatory contributions, taxes and the risk factor.

~~~
lisardo
70-80k is salary for senior in Berlin.

------
Hojjatfelani
Here are some other points; Working in Germany, you may obtain an EU Bluecard,
which allows you to reside/work wherever you want in Europe. The salaries are
quite good and life quality is pretty high. The mentality is European, which
is considerably different from American countries. Language in Europe is
always a concern, however, Berlin benefits an international atmosphere. German
may need a bit of work! Canada is cold, but English. This could be a huge
advantage!

------
lbutler
If you wanted to springboard off one Citizenship to get into the US, you could
go to Australia, and then you get access to the E3 visa.

Though as an Australian living in Canada and running a business here, I hope
you would stay and reward the country that accepts you as a PR.

After having lived in the UK and also seen my countries hostility towards
migration, it was a breath of fresh air to see how progressive the Canadian
immigration process is.

------
d_burfoot
You should consider Singapore as well. It is superior to Western countries in
almost every dimension of social success: better education, lower crime,
better GDP per capita, stabler government, better infrastructure, and better
health care - all of this achieved with a much lower tax burden. It is closer
to India and there are many ethnically Indian people there. It has a thriving
tech sector.

~~~
startuplife01
I've spent some time in Singapore. The country is too tiny for me to live. I
love natural beauty and exploring new places, which Singapore lacks IMO.

~~~
r0b05
Really? I thought that Singapore was a beautiful place.

~~~
startuplife01
It doesn't have forests or mountains. It is beautiful in its own way -- it's a
small, developed and commercial island. Lots of skyscrapers but very little
natural beauty.

~~~
p90puma
That's Toronto in a nutshell, which is pretty much the only place in Canada
that has real tech jobs.

------
wolco
If your goal is sv than go to Canada. Work three years and get citizenship and
start applying in sf.

Salaries are the same. Huge Indian community in Toronto from all Indian
provinces so that may factor in. As someone who lives in Toronto Germany
sounds like more fun.

No matter where you choose you'll be fine. But if US is the goal go to Canada.

------
r0b05
I am 32M full stack developer from South Africa.

Been trying to relocate to Canada for a few years now with no success.

Things that appeal to me are: Lots of tech jobs. Foreigner friendly
population. Indian community (I am of Indian origin). Low crime rates.

If there is anyone in Canada looking for a fine developer, please give me a
shout!

~~~
startuplife01
Are you currently in South Africa or in Canada? It's very difficult to get a
job from outside Canada. First get the PR then look for a job.

~~~
r0b05
I am currently in South Africa. Yes I have sent hundreds of applications but
nobody seems to want to sponsor visas in Canada. I have also applied for PR
but my points are rather low - I thought that getting a job would boost my PR
score but it's kinda like a catch 22 as I need to be there in order to get the
job!

~~~
startuplife01
Get a job in South Africa and work on increasing your points. Also, look into
provincial nomination - it can boost your points alot.

~~~
r0b05
Thanks man! Already employed in SA. Hope to see you in Canada :)

------
heurisko
I have lived and worked in Berlin. I am from the UK.

I speak, read and write semi-fluent German. This didn't really help me in my
work life, as everyone wanted to speak English, however obviously helped in
everyday life. My doctor, for example, oddly, spoke no English at all.
Nevertheless I am sure I could have transferred to another doctor.

I found it was very useful to read contracts in German. If you don't do
certain things, then things can get quite expensive. For example, if you don't
have personal liability insurance and you lose your flat key, it can cost you
1,500 euros [1]. However I wouldn't let that discourage people. It just pays
to ask for advice for colleagues on what you should be doing.

Public transport in Berlin is great, and you can get anywhere in the city
within about 40 minutes. This is useful for socialising after work. There are
a LOT of talks and conferences that happen in Berlin.

However as a lot of people are transitory, moving in and out of the city, I
found it difficult making more longer-term relationships. I don't think Berlin
is unique in that regards, rather I think it is a trait shared by other large
cities. I think it can be reinforcing: people are reluctant to invest in deep
relationships as people move so often, and people move when they haven't
formed relationships.

At times Berlin felt a bit like living on an island, as it is far away from
clusters of other major cities in Germany. Deutsche Bahn did open a new line
between Berlin and Munich, however, so now you can go to Oktoberfest in 4
hours.

German industry is also more located in West Germany, rather than the East.
However what I did see was the big companies opening up subsidiaries in
Berlin. There is a positive feedback loop: there are developers in Berlin, so
more companies open, which brings in more developers.

The climate was more extreme than England's mild maritime climate. Very much
warmer and more humid summers and a longer, colder, winter. However you also
get Gluehwein and winter markets.

I enjoyed the experience living there. If I were to do it again, I would pay
to live in a furnished apartment for my whole stay, instead of going the local
route of finding an apartment, then having to furnish it (this can also be a
nightmare if it doesn't have a built-in kitchen, which a lot don't!). This can
be significantly more expensive, however. Berlin is not that cheap any more.

As an immigrant, I bought a furnished apartment with a 3 month let from a
specialist company (who obviously charge a premium). This allowed me to get my
official German papers, such as a SCHUFA check (a piece of paper that says you
don't have any debt) that allowed me to rent a "real" place. In the 3 months I
could also get the bank account, town registration, etc. documents you also
need.

However, as I mentioned, if I were to do it again, I would have probably just
tried to pay a premium to get a furnished place, longer term. Jon Worth's
Euroblog was one of the useful things I read regarding renting a flat in
Berlin [2].

[1] [https://www.finanzen.de/news/15102/schluessel-verloren-
eine-...](https://www.finanzen.de/news/15102/schluessel-verloren-eine-gute-
haftpflichtversicherung-zahlt) [2] [https://jonworth.eu/how-to-find-a-flat-in-
berlin/](https://jonworth.eu/how-to-find-a-flat-in-berlin/)

------
vinni2
Just out of curiosity why only these two choices? Why not London for example?
Just trying to understand your rationale behind your choice.

------
countryqt30
Germany hands down: learn a new language, a new continent, better work-live,
happier people, better IT and gov for IT

------
fdeth
I wouldn’t think about a transfer to Silicon Valley as an upgrade, actually.
(I’m a Senior PM based in Berlin.)

------
biztos
I’m not Indian and I’ve never lived in Canada, but I can comment on Berlin as
a long-time foreign resident from the US.

Berlin has an _amazing_ cultural scene. If you care about things like art,
music, theatre — then Berlin will never, ever bore you. Also if you like bars!
And South-East Asian food!

The tech scene in Berlin is very startup-focused, and the pay is not great.
There are people who move to Berlin to make money, and there’s a lot of money
to be made, but those people don’t have 9-to-5 jobs slinging code. You will be
ludicrously underpaid compared to Frankfurt, much less London, much less San
Francisco — but aside from the high rents, which can be really tough and
require a lot of flexibility which you hopefully have at 25, you will have a
very high quality of life.

Berlin is also a working-class city behind the vibrant cultural scene. If you
like that, and you learn German, you can easily make friends from the “real
Germany” or you can hang out with hipsters all the time if you prefer that.
Berlin has both.

As others have noted, immigration is very straightforward, but you do need a
lawyer and (obviously) a job offer. The path to citizenship is also
straightforward.

Interestingly, there aren’t that many Indians in Berlin, or at least I would
say I see more Indians on the street in Budapest than in Berlin, and I would
probably have expected the opposite. There’s probably an “Indian scene” in
Berlin but there definitely isn’t good Indian food. In Berlin the “Asians” are
mostly from Vietnam.

One thing you should think seriously about if you’re looking at settling in
Germany is Munich. Munich is where the higher-paying tech jobs are. Less
startup culture, more good old fashioned German profit-making actual
legitimate business culture. Google, Apple, Microsoft — these companies have a
much bigger presence in Munich than in Berlin.

There is still quite a bit of specialization in German cities. Publishing?
Hamburg. Finance? Frankfurt. Cars? Munich, or Stuttgart and environs.
Basically if you want to live a dynamic and interesting and vibrant life, and
are cool with making less money, go to Berlin. If you want more stability and
professionalism go somewhere else. And it’s really easy to travel around
Germany by train, plane or automobile, so you can always start in one place
and explore others. Check out Darmstadt for example! Amazing art museum! Very
very serious tech research scene! Minutes from Frankfurt!

Another thing to consider is that German employment culture revolves around
stability. There are lots of opportunities to do weird risky things, but in
principle almost everybody thinks the best way to live is to have a good job,
do your work, and by the time you’re 30 you have a pretty good idea what your
life will be like when you retire at 67. If that’s attractive to you, you’ll
probably really love Germany.

And as long as you’re in Berlin or Munich or Hamburg you don’t have to eat
German food! :-)

Finally, one thing I think German “tech” doesn’t get enough credit for: there
is a lot of very serious engineering done in Germany but it’s not the “Uber
for X” variety — it’s mostly based around existing, real-world technical
challenges, usually involving physical machines of some kind. If things like
self-driving cars or factory automation or building a better hammer attract
you more than “Social network for cats” then you’ll probably really like
German engineering culture.

~~~
lispm
> always start in one place and explore others ... German engineering culture

It's said that Germany has almost 50% of the world's 'hidden champion'
companies (revenue less than 5 Billion Euros, unknown to the public, market
leader in a niche domain globally (among the biggest three) or leader at the
home continent). People coming from the outside might overlook these
companies. More than 1300 hidden champions are distributed all over Germany,
often in rural areas and acting globally (examples: Herrenknecht for tunnel
boring machines or Lürssen for superyachts). Germany in general is a very
decentralized country with lots of successful small and midsized cities
(Examples for large companies: VW headquarter is in Wolfsburg, Audi in
Ingolstadt, Adidas in Herzogenaurach, SAP in Walldorf).

[https://hbr.org/2017/05/why-germany-still-has-so-many-
middle...](https://hbr.org/2017/05/why-germany-still-has-so-many-middle-class-
manufacturing-jobs)

~~~
trampoline1443
Man if you everything that’s “said” about germany you’d think it is paradise
on earth. The indian dude has nu clue whats waiting for him in that country
given he is not white. He’d better go to the uk if he wants a truly open
minded european country. Canada is by far cleaner, safer, and better organised
than any thi.

------
thiago_fm
From my own experience of living in Berlin as a foreigner, been living here
for 4 and a half years:

\- life cost is hiking up due to rent prices and a lot of people moving, rest
is kind of cheap

\- salaries vs. life cost is good, not as good as the US

\- Germany is an overall good country, better than canada, but only if you
want to adapt to their culture. Remember that outside of work, people
generally speak german and act as a german.

\- Hard to make friends here, but good if you are a bit antisocial or is
married

\- There is a lot of socialism here, like, if you have a kid, you get money
and childcare is free(but hard to find). Medicine cost also very cheap. I'm
more libertarian/capitalist and find it annoying, but everything works well so
I can't complain much.

\- Get some insurances, for personal liability and for your place

\- Finding an apartment can be hard: get a temporary furbished apartment
first, live there for like 6 months meanwhile you look for a permanent place.
This can be annoying, but once you are done with that, it is great!

\- Learn german. Try to start learning from when you move in, because you will
need it. Also, if you start learning early and constantly, you will be
progressing. German is a very hard language to learn and you will need a lot
of time to become fluent on it as you will be working full time. I've been
learning little by little, while working full time and it is hard. But
rewarding.

\- Taxes are high but if you don't spend a lot you can save some money,
disposable income is great.

\- Parks are great

\- Germans on average are much smarter than Americans or Canadians, they are
more aware of what is going on. For me it's a big point as most Americans
really lack even basic knowledge about geography and history, or philosophy.
Even very successful/rich people in America are quite illiterate and I like
talking with smart people.

\- Meat in Germany is pretty bad and expensive, I became vegetarian a few
years after I've moved here and don't regret it at all. I remember I would
spend like 20 euro to get meat that I would consider "bad" with my Brazilian
standards.

\- Berlin has a lot of foreigners with different cultures, you will be able to
learn from everyone something. I think on Canada you might not be able to have
the same experience. I don't know how much you care about that.

I would rather live in Berlin than in Canada. Better than Berlin is possibly
only the US, but the working permit there sucks(H1B). Here in Germany it is
pretty good, even my wife can work. If you wanna come and live here for a long
time(maybe forever or until you are retired, it is a good country).

I think if you don't wanna come to stick with it for a few decades, I think an
english speaking country is better. People keep mentioning life cost(which is
Berlin wins by a wide margin in comparison to Canada), but I think that
culture and the mindset is also important. Please make sure you know that
germans do not think like the canadians, no matter how international Berlin
is, the overall mood is set by the germans. If you don't want to embrace their
culture, you might have a hard time.

------
manishsharan
As an immigrant from India who is happily living in Toronto with no desire of
going (back) to US, here are my reasons why I like it here better. My reasons
have nothing to do with job opportunities. (I lived in NY for about 8 years ).

As a "visible minority", life in Toronto and Vancouver is less stressful than
it is in USA or Edmonton. Also your dating life will be better in Toronto. If
you plan to have a family and kids, you don't have to worry about school
shootings -- this is now a thing parents worry about in USA. Your parents can
visit you and getting a visitor visa is not a pain.

Of course taxes are higher and take home pay is lower than in USA and the rent
is too damm high. But somehow your quality of life will be better here. People
are more chill here than in USA (my experience is limited to NY/NJ) and I will
bet you already have someone you know who has relative living in Canada. So
loneliness will not be an issue.

Also, you can start your own business as soon as you get permanent residency.
in USA, a green card could take upto 12 years. In Canada , you will get it in
3 years at most. And when you start contracting as an independent , you will
make a whole lot more.

I have never been to Berlin but I hope to visit it one day. I have German
friends and they are wonderful people.

~~~
omouse
>And when you start contracting as an independent , you will make a whole lot
more.

This is true and more true if you're freelancing for US dollars. That sweet
sweet conversion rate from USD to CAD works very well. But again this is why
Europe is a better choice, Euros to USD or Euros to CAD whenever you want to
travel is also a nice conversion rate.

~~~
avenger123
I have slowly been transitioning to full remote work and I have been
contracting for a while already (I am in Canada). I think I have a good
opportunity in the coming months to transition to a remote engagement with a
US company. Any insight with the best approach to do that? I am aware of the
different freelancing websites but I'm wondering if there is strategies that
can accelerate the process. In my particular case, I normally do six to one
year contracts (with renewals and an engagement usually lasting for a couple
of years) so would be looking for something similar. This would be for senior
development role.

