
Detained in the US for “Visiting Thailand Too Much” - dboles99
http://www.richardbarrow.com/2013/08/detained-in-the-us-for-visiting-thailand-too-much/
======
jasonkester
For all the mean things that border control agents get away with every day, I
personally enjoy "Returning From Thailand" as my little opportunity to even
the score a bit.

"How long have you been gone?"

"I don't know. A year, give or take? Who keeps track?"

"Which countries did you visit while you were away? Your landing card just
says 'most of them'"

"Well probably not _most_ of them really, but definitely enough not to fit in
that space. Let's see... [followed by a complete list]

"What's your occupation?"

"I own a software company. It pretty much runs itself these days, and I just
check in every once in a while to see how things are going."

"Is this bag your only luggage?"

"Yeah. I was only gone a year, remember. I find you don't really need much
stuff in the tropics. I've worn this shirt 40 days running now. I think I'll
buy a new one now that I'm home"

Basically, it's your opportunity to remind them that their job is to sit in a
little cube talking to people who are actually out there leading exciting
lives. And that their attempts to make other people's lives worse is not
really doing a very good job of making their own life any better.

One day they'll quit and go find a better job. Or give up trying to make other
people's lives worse, thus making the world a slightly better place.

Seems to be working. These days at LAX, it seems that one in four of the
people manning those desks is genuinely friendly. And the ones that need this
sort of treatment are few and far between.

~~~
jaysonelliot
I don't think I've read a more privileged, arrogant, myopic comment in a very
long time.

In what world is it your role to judge a person for going to work every day to
feed their family?

 _" Basically, it's your opportunity to remind them that their job is to sit
in a little cube talking to people who are actually out there leading exciting
lives."_

I'm trying not to read that sentence in the voice of a young English
aristocrat from the 1920s, but that's how it sounds. Mocking the working class
for the distasteful faux pas of needing a paycheck to survive?

You are blessed for having been able to find a way to live a life of travel
and pleasure while others have to worry about which bills they can pay, hope
they don't get sick, and dream of someday being able to take even one
vacation. Does that mean you are better than them? You certainly seem to think
so.

 _" One day they'll quit . . . the ones that need this sort of treatment . .
."_

Honestly, listen to yourself. Are you some authority appointed to correct the
misbehavior of your inferiors? No. You're a guy with talent who drew the right
cards, played them well, and was rewarded with a life others would like to
have. Learn a lesson about humility from my grandmother who grew up in the
Great Depression, and reminded me always to tell myself "there, but for the
grace of God, go I."

On a side note, I see that you are the founder of Twiddla. Not that the
opinion of a single user matters, but as a user, I will now look for an
alternative. I have no interest in supporting such arrogance.

~~~
jasonkester
_Are you some authority appointed to correct the misbehavior of your
inferiors?_

No. If you came away with that impression then you may have misread my intent.

My stance is that mean people deserve to live an unhappy life. No more. Nice
people, as noted in the comment you responded to, receive no such treatment
from me. Mean people get a fictionalized account of a person leading a much
better life than themselves, delivered by a person who in actual fact is not
likely leading a much more interesting life at all.

As a mean person, the theory goes, one can continue being mean and thus
unhappy. Or they can start being nice and be treated nicely. Notice how class
does not enter into it at all.

~~~
jaysonelliot
Do you think for a moment about what that person had to put up with for the
hours before you arrived that day, or will continue to deal with after you
leave?

Is it not enough that you've managed to retire as a young man and lounge on
the beaches of Thailand, do you also need to be treated with smiles and
deference by people who still have to go to work every day? They have a job to
do, and your abuse isn't going to help anything. At best, it'll just make the
experience that much worse for the person in line behind you.

Empathy is not something that can be forced on a person, and a comment on a
web page isn't going to make you change your attitude or think about anyone
else's life, but then again, being a dick to customs agents isn't going to
help, either, so I guess we're both wasting our breath.

~~~
cpncrunch
"I'm rude because I've had a shitty day" isn't a good excuse.

I think Jason made the mistake of not clarifying in his comment that he only
does this to agents who are rude to him first. Now his comment has turned into
a new story by itself with a lot of angry comments.

I feel sorry for Jason because he seems like a nice guy who just didn't
properly proofread his comment before posting and he's now getting a huge ass
kicking as a result.

------
jacquesm
Borders have three uses:

1) to keep people out

2) to keep people in

3) to be able to search/detain people without cause

I've yet to see a border that I liked. In plenty of countries this now extends
to a certain distance away from the border (sometimes surprisingly large),
_even_ when you are not actively crossing or have not crossed.

~~~
ape4
How about the border between EU countries.

~~~
jacquesm
Which one?

Between .ch and one of the surrounding countries?

Between any two Schengen countries?

Between a Schengen country and a non-Schengen country?

What kind?

On an airfield, a shipping port or a land border?

How are you moving?

With a vehicle or just you?

Who are you?

A Citizen of a Schengen country?

A Citizen of the EU?

A Citizen of the United States, Canada, Japan, Australia or New-Zealand?

A Citizen of another country?

What do you look like?

All have different rules governing what border patrols can/may/must do and the
other variables determine what you're up against depending on the can/may bit.
Hard to know your rights (sometimes the guards don't even know...), and your
obligations.

Amongst what you could encounter:

\- fixed stop-all checks

\- mobile checks

\- abandoned borders

\- randomly manned borders

\- nothing at all

EU border strategy is pretty messy. Even on the outside borders of the EU it
is very much dependent on where you are what you'll encounter.

Some borders are so porous they might as well not exist, others are so locked
up that even though technically cross border traffic is open in practice it's
just like it was before or worse.

If you want to know about borders in the EU: become a trucker for a few years.

~~~
tehwalrus
I remember cycling across the border from France to Italy once. Just a
deserted alpine road, it was beautiful...

Also, come to think of it, the sleeper train from Paris to Munich last summer
didn't ask me for any ID at all...

The time we drove from Croatia to Italy was a different story though (come to
think of it, that was before it joined the EU a month ago, so probably not
relevant.)

------
jwr
As a dual-citizen I still find it mind-boggling that a US border guard asks me
questions about my private life. It still isn't clear to me what can happen if
I answer "wrong" (e.g. the answers do not meet his expectations).

For comparison, in many (if not most) countries (I don't want to name my
specific case because this could derail the discussino) a border guard
presented with a passport issued by his own country has exactly two options:
1) arrest the person on the spot (arrest meaning what it should, e.g. call the
police and follow the law) or 2) let the person in. There are no questions,
because the border guard has zero discretion in letting the person in. In
general, a citizen of any country should always be able to enter that country,
no questions asked (with the possibility of being arrested right afterwards,
of course).

I find it both strange and disturbing that this gray area seems to be
universally accepted and that outrage (like in the article above) is rare.

~~~
twoodfin
This is a type of "behavioral profiling". They take you on a random walk down
a conversation tree, and unless you're a _very_ good liar, it will be
difficult for you to answer the questions without delays, inconsistencies or
other signs of prevarication.

It's a common claim around here that airport security is mostly theater and
that El Al does it right. But El Al uses behavioral profiling, and as you
point out, that can seem as intrusive as any scan.

~~~
theycallmemorty
> it will be difficult for you to answer the questions without delays,
> inconsistencies or other signs of prevarication.

What if I'm a little absent minded and I already have a hard time answering
without delays and inconsistencies?

~~~
twoodfin
Are you arguing that behavioral profiling is useless or that it's not perfect?

The classification technique goes beyond just watching how fast you answer:
It's a skill that takes training and practice, but can be extremely effective,
which is why the Israelis and U.S. ICE use it.

------
marvin
I have no words. They won't even stop at looking through your files on a
groundless suspicion - they'll _clone your harddrive_? With your naked
pictures of your girlfriend, diary, company secrets and everything?

And I'm a "rights-free person" (a foreigner). If they do this stuff to
citizens, I can't even imagine what sort of authority they have over
foreigners. You guys really need to rein in your government, this is getting
insane.

~~~
auctiontheory
Canada does this too. [[http://tynan.com/ohcanada](http://tynan.com/ohcanada)]
Probably every country with the technological capability does this when they
feel like it.

You have no rights at an international border. And if you're non-white, you
have even fewer rights.

------
reustle
> They even went through his laptop and copied his hard disks.

I may be completely out of line here but why can't he request a lawyer before
doing this kind of stuff? Why are they allowed to dig so deep into someone
without any evidence of doing something illegal?

~~~
Spoom
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Border_search_exception](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Border_search_exception)

Basically, the Fourth Amendment doesn't apply at the border, and they're under
no obligation to allow him to contact anyone.

------
lignuist
I wonder how many people have the US on their personal no-fly lists because of
such stories?

~~~
justadude
I certainly avoid the US for any connecting flights to Central and South
America (I live in Europe). I've also been avoiding vacationing in the US
since I experienced some rather rude TSA agents at Miami International a few
years ago, although to be fair I have seen some of the US and wanted to expand
my horizons.

------
w1ntermute
I'm sorry, but if you try to enter the US with any physical objects that have
even the remotest chance of being interpreted as being illegal, or digital
storage that isn't encrypted, you're just asking for trouble these days.

~~~
drdaeman
Uhm, in light of those, isn't it risky to enter US with encrypted digital
storage too?

~~~
kintamanimatt
Cross borders with blank drives. Re-image when you're at your destination.

Although it can be interpreted as such, it's not a sign of guilt, it's a
response to the possible threat of immigration officers on a power trip. The
vast majority are absolutely fine, but there are some that overstep their
bounds or work within an egregious legal framework, e.g. the Brits. If they
force you to decrypt your data (as they legally can in the UK), who knows what
they'll do with it, especially if you've got proprietary work and confidential
business stuff on there.

~~~
skrause
The drive doesn't have to be blank. Just put on a fresh install of an OS and
don't put on any personal files. Then reimage after reaching your destination.

------
sschueller
What I would love to do is to get stamps from the 'axis of evil' all on one
page of my passport by visiting Iran, Iraq and North Korea, then travel the
the US. Maybe I can get them to also stamp that page :)

~~~
jwr
You mean with a "Guantanamo Bay - ADMITTED" stamp?

(I just realized that this would be a silly and not-too-funny joke several
years back, while these days it is both not silly and not funny at all)

------
CitizenKane
To be honest, this isn't so hard to do. I went to Kazakhstan to visit a
college friend once and got placed on the watch list for the two years after
that. Apparently visiting a country with stan in the name, regardless of
purpose, is cause for suspicion.

I'm a little surprised they bothered to copy the hard drives. Usually they
just do a full search down and then they want you to be gone as soon as
possible.

It makes me sad, but I'm unsure as to what to do about it. I'd generally
suggest removing the hard drive from the computer, but that's becoming more
difficult to do. You can use full drive encryption, but then if they want they
might just confiscate the whole computer. Beyond that, at this point that
unless your paranoid your communications can be monitored with ease.

------
scrrr
Yeah, this is not freedom. It's alright, USA. But stop pretending otherwise.

------
cpursley
This is another good case of having a second passport as an American (or any
place for that matter) for travel and (shtf) insurance purposes.

"Distributed Nationality" if you will.

~~~
kintamanimatt
What risks are you trying to protect against?

~~~
cpursley
Political risk, business risk, etc. The same reason you don't invest
everything in one stock, one skill-set, etc. Same reason you back up your
database and use version control.

Distributed systems is all the rage now. It makes sense on all levels of life.

------
graup
> The pictures of your kids taking a bath maybe interpreted in a different way
> by immigration officers

Reminds me of a story just like that. The only source I can find now:
[http://www.muripo.com/2013/06/07/elderly-man-arrested-for-
po...](http://www.muripo.com/2013/06/07/elderly-man-arrested-for-possession-
of-photos-of-children-playing-with-water/) but I'm sure quite it was on HN.

------
ryanackley
He flew home to the USA but he was processed in Canada? In other words, did he
fly into Canada from SE Asia and then immediately drive to the USA? Honestly,
that would look a little suspicious to me if I was a customs officer.

I've flown into L.A. and Dallas/Fort-Worth a bunch of times from the Asia
Pacific region of the world and never received a glance at any of my visa
pages.

~~~
seanmcdirmid
Plenty of international flights connect through Canada, like Vancouver on the
west coast. Also, most big Canadian airports have American immigration
facilities since they have so much traffic to process, quite efficient
actually.

~~~
kevin_nisbet
More information about preclearance:
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_border_preclearan...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_border_preclearance)

------
mathattack
I had a business colleague who was based elsewhere in Asia for several years.
He visited Thailand every few weeks the entire stay. When he returned to the
US, immigration gave him the same rundown. When he finally convinced them that
he was just a young guy who wanted to have fun, they waved him through with a
smile.

------
gnu8
It's odd that we still "stamp" passports, allowing border guards to see what
countries you have visited in the past. This information should not be
available to any authorities by any means, but especially not appended to your
identity documents. Afaik, only Israel has a correct policy on this.

~~~
kyllo
A passport was not originally intended to be an identity document, only a
travel document. But the US doesn't have any official identity document, so
the passport gets de facto used as one. This is unfortunate for a number of
reasons.

------
dr_
Few articles on here lately regarding government "security" operations and the
TSA. I can sympathize with these people, however most of the issues I have
personally encountered have been outside the US, not while leaving the States
or upon arrival. I've recently signed up for Global Entry, which is worth it I
think, if you're concerned about any of these things. You are pre-screened in
advance, and pretty much not bothered with immigration beyond that when you
leave or arrive (note: TSA screenings still apply, unless you are a candidate
for TSA pre check which, I believe, only applies to domestic flights as of
now).

------
AmVess
Honestly, if there were a minimum IQ rating of 25 at DHS to be considered for
employment, most of our problems with that agency would evaporate overnight.

~~~
jetti
The issue isn't "stupid employees" as you seem to think but an overreaching
policy that is trying to cover all situations at once but doesn't really cover
any. Add to that the reactionary measures that seem to be a staple of DHS
since its inception and you just have a recipe for disaster.

------
morgante
Unfortunate story, but also very different than my experience with US border
control. As someone who travels outside the US many times a year, including to
somewhat odd places (last year has included Sudan, United Arab Emirates, Sri
Lanka, Nepal, Malaysia, Ukraine), I've never had a single problem or spent
more than a minute talking to anyone from customs or immigration.

Of course, the TSA is another story.

------
lukeschlather
Honestly, this is refreshing. The US does not have a serious terrorism
problem, so the massive amount of border searches are very trouble. We're
giving up a lot of freedom to solve a problem that we don't really have.

On the other hand, we _do_ have a pretty serious human trafficking problem, so
I'm glad to see someone taking it seriously.

------
seanmcdirmid
I have been searched by borders and customs so many times in Seattle that I
think they single put Americans for special treatment. I never come with much
in my luggage (I shop in the states since china is expensive), so the searches
go,quickly at least.

------
MFR1965
You are a mean person. Even if the ends justify these particular means, as you
suggest (and I don't even think you've got the cause and effect right here),
insulting and demeaning someone far less privileged than you was immoral.

------
kseistrup
US, land of the free…

