

It's time to put the brakes on red-light cameras  - cwan
http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/editorials/la-ed-cameras-20100930,0,7565447.story

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byoung2
I think the statistics are misleading. In cases where the number of "accidents
at intersections" fell, I'd like to know whether the number of accidents
between the crosswalks fell, while the number of accidents leading up to the
intersection rose. I have personally witnessed people either speeding up to
beat the camera or slamming on the brakes to avoid getting a ticket. I'd bet
that the number of rear-end accidents on approach to camera-monitored
intersections increased.

~~~
Timmy_C
You bet right:

<http://vtrc.virginiadot.org/PubDetails.aspx?PubNo=05-R21>

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byoung2
A-ha!

 _Further the data show that the cameras are correlated with a definite
decrease in crashes that are directly attributable to red light running, a
definite increase in rear-end crashes, a possible decrease in angle crashes, a
net decrease in injury crashes attributable to red light running, and an
increase in total injury crashes. More time is needed to determine whether the
severity of the eliminated red light running crashes was greater than that of
the induced rear-end crashes._

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asmithmd1
_"red-light violators busted by the cameras have to pay a $446 citation"_

Holy Sh!7 that is big fine for sneaking through a red light.

Here in Boston you have to be careful not to get rear ended when you are the
first in line to stop at a red light. And don't even think of stopping on
yellow -- that earned me a horn blast and finger as they zoomed around me when
I first moved here.

It is not just my imagination -- as part of finishing the big dig a temporary
light was mis-timed to give a green left turn arrow to one direction while at
the same time the opposite direction had green ball. This went un-noticed for
3 months, everyone just assumed the other people were going through on red.

~~~
sunkan
I am one of those victims. Not only paid $550 and another 8hrs of my life
trying to deal with it in the court unsuccessfully. All for not coming to a
complete stop before taking the right turn. Live and learn :)

~~~
alain94040
In what way are you a _victim_? You ran a red light. Have you any clue what
kind of accident that creates. I'm sure you were a tenth of a second late, so
didn't endanger anyone, right?

Well, I have been first-hand crossing an intersection with someone ignoring
the red light. It's not fun :-(

~~~
Xurinos
You're not alone. I thought this claim to be a victim was ridiculous, too.
After all, "stopping at a red light" is standard driver's manual material,
along with notes on being cautious about taking a right there, considering in
this situation, you are the last to have the right of way.

I have noticed that Internet threads about driving are generally useless, full
of ignorance and pride. Folks think they know how to drive, and they do not
want to be told they are wrong.

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zacharycohn
On a somewhat related note to this story, there's a section of Route 50 on
your way westbound into Washington DC where there is a speed camera set to
35mph about a mile after the road switches from being 65mph. It's pretty
hilarious to still be driving around 50mph, and then simultaneously have
everyone slam their breaks on, go 35 for about 200ft, and then speed back up
to 50.

I'd love to see some hidden no-penalty speed cameras before/after marked ones
to record how effective they are at traffic calming, rather than simply
causing people to slow down specifically where they know the camera is.

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WillyF
I still can't believe that there isn't some sort of standard time for a yellow
light. I live in Chicago, and the yellows are extremely short. When we drive
up to the suburbs to see my girlfriend's family, I am shocked that the light
stays yellow for what seems like an eternity. I think I remember reading an
article about cities changing the timing on lights to eek even more revenue
out of the red light cameras.

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mrbird
I assumed that the cost to the city was mostly of the startup variety, namely
installation and associated tasks. This would mean that in the future, it
could be a revenue generator. But it turns out that it's running at a loss,
annually. From the report itself:

2008: 2.3M revenue, 3.8M costs (1.5M loss) 2009: 3.0M revenue, 4M costs (1M
loss)

The bulk of the cost is "vendor contract cost" which I believe means ongoing
support, and appears to be on top of the initial investment.

It appears adding more cameras would only compound the losses.

(disclaimer: I do not read reports like this for a living; interpret my
analysis at your own risk)

~~~
greyboy
I believe another 'cost' is that the vendor gets a cut of payment (a certain
percentage). Warning: that's what I've read in the past.

~~~
Cushman
Which sounds pretty damn shifty, but if I were selling a traffic monitoring
system I'd probably try to get some profit sharing in the contract.

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bdwalter
In Portland Oregon they are now reducing the yellow times in order to increase
red light camera revenue. Somebody needs to put a stop to this madness before
_too many_ people die.

~~~
matwood
States and cities are looking for anyway to increase revenue right now. Expect
to see more shortening of yellow times and increased law enforcement where
fines can be levied.

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lr
The thing that I have always disliked about red light cameras is that it
removes what I feel is the deterrent effect that a police officer has when
others see a car pulled over. People slow down when they see a police car with
its lights on (well, maybe not in LA, but in a lot of places, people do), and
if they see it often enough in the same locations, their likelihood to speed
or go through a red light is going to go down. With a red light camera, you
have none of that.

~~~
matwood
In Boulder, CO they have a few red light cameras and huge signs before each
intersection warning drivers that they are there. It still didn't stop the
idiot next to me from running the light. I saw the flash from the cameras as
he went through. I guess the point is that you'll always have idiots even with
some sort of active deterrent.

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btilly
If they care about safety, they need to lengthen the yellow lights rather than
make them illegally short. [http://blog.motorists.org/6-cities-that-were-
caught-shorteni...](http://blog.motorists.org/6-cities-that-were-caught-
shortening-yellow-light-times-for-profit/) just lists 6 cities that have
illegally short lights, but I've seen enough in Long Beach to know it happens
more often than reported.

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IgorPartola
They really spent $2.5M on 32 cameras?

~~~
byoung2
_The city, meanwhile, has to pay the contractor for the red-light system, the
salaries of police and transportation officials who monitor the program, and a
Superior Court fee to benefit court reporters_

I'm guessing they assign one officer from each police station whose
jurisdiction includes a camera to review the images (they weed out images of
police cars, firetrucks, and ambulances). These officers are probably the ones
who go to court if you choose to fight the ticket. At $50k/year, and assuming
two cameras per jurisdiction, you're looking at $1.6 million in salary alone
over a two year period.

~~~
adolph
The governmental entities around Houston claim that they make the driver pay
(police, city bus, school bus, garbage, etc.):

[http://www.click2houston.com/investigates/11066653/detail.ht...](http://www.click2houston.com/investigates/11066653/detail.html)

~~~
byoung2
That's great! I don't think that happens here in California. Apparently these
tickets are issued to the registered owner of the vehicle, not the driver, and
they are considered administrative violations, not moving violations. So if a
Los Angeles city vehicle got a ticket, the city would be liable for the fine.

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njharman
Working with the city government of LA (long ago) opened my eyes to how
rampant bribes, kickbacks and the rest of corruption we associate with small
third-world countries is in the USA.

The main difference being it's kept to a higher level (top gov officials and
the rich/corporations) here in the land of the free.

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orangecat
Red light cameras are in the same category as software patents: possibly a
good idea in theory, but doomed to failure and abuse when implemented by
actual humans.

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heyrhett
Only government could lose money on something like this. They should just have
a private company set it up, and make the companies bid on the right to
operate it.

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adolph
I think in most places municipal governments did just that. Unfortunately, one
of the problems with setting it up that way is that in many states there isn't
much bite behind the tickets. If you don't pay, nothing happens.

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tocomment
I think the ultimate answer is to convert stoplights to circles. I've heard
they're safer and more efficient.

~~~
WildUtah
Safer for cars maybe, but more dangerous for pedestrians and cyclists and
slower for busses. The last thing we need is more incentive to drive and worse
facilities for sustainable transportation.

