
CLEAVE – Ergonomic Mechanical Keyboard - methou
https://www.trulyergonomic.com/store/truly-ergonomic-mechanical-keyboard
======
theptip
I used the old version of this keyboard for a few years. I liked the layout;
it has the advantage of being fairly similar to a standard QWERTY keyboard
(e.g. a non-split or Microsoft Natural Ergonomic 4000) but with a few
modifications to make it more compact, and so it's very quick to learn.

Major downside would be that it died within 2 years and I couldn't get any
response from support, and the website stopped selling them without making any
explanation of whether/when they would be available, so sibling comment
complaints about poor customer support seem to suggest a theme here rather
than an isolated negative interaction.

I ended up going deeper down the rabbit hole and trying an ErgoDox
([https://ergodox-ez.com/](https://ergodox-ez.com/)) and then settling on a
Keyboardio ([https://shop.keyboard.io/](https://shop.keyboard.io/)). These
have more extreme key remaps, so it took a few weeks to get back up to fluent
typing while coding, but I'm fairly happy with where I've ended up.

~~~
lostdog
Same thing happened to me: I loved the layout, but the keybord died after a
year. I switched to a kinesis, since I know other people who have kept theirs
for years.

~~~
lowmagnet
I miss my Kinesis QD ergo. They were good boards. I kinda wish I had fixed it
instead of giving it away to someone who could but oh well.

------
gregwebs
I think a keyboard has to split in two to be truly ergonomic (otherwise it
isn't really adjustable to the user). I was a happy user of an ErgoPro [1] for
a year until it stopped working.

I tried the Ergodox but really didn't like adapting to its compacted layout. I
am about to purchase a Mistrel Barocco.

[1] [http://matias.ca/ergopro/pc/](http://matias.ca/ergopro/pc/)

~~~
polyfather
I have to agree. This situation has been bothering me for quite some time. In
the last 8-10 years (who's counting), I've gone through four Matias ErgoPros.
Their rate of failure is much higher than I'd expect for a mechanical
keyboard, but I've yet to find a better board (despite the build issues and
sticky keys problem).

I've looked and looked, but haven't yet any better boards to suite my simplish
criteria:

a) Mechanical b) Split (and not fixed) c) Full-ish key layout

At least when you have a stack of ErgoPros, you can start mixing and matching
the working halves.

~~~
dotancohen
The Matias ErgoPro is hands-down the best keyboard that I've ever used. When
it works.

I had both the standard and low-force keys. One was a warranty replacement for
the other, I forget in which order. Both boards had sticking keys within a
year.

------
skocznymroczny
I had a period of being enamored with mechanical keyboards, but not any more.
I tried various switches, high-profile, low-profile, always looking for the
end-game keyboard. In the end, I realized that I still had more fun typing on
Apple Wired Keyboard or even basic keyboards like Logitech K120. I don't
imagine coming back to mechanical keyboards any time soon. I'll stick to
scissor switches for the time being I guess.

~~~
kkarakk
>Apple Wired Keyboard/logitech k120

...how do you prefer this? it's just one step above typing on a touchscreen,
keys are mushy feeling and i keep mistyping because i don't get feedback. also
using for long periods of time is murder on the wrists

how long have you been held hostage by these kinda keyboards that you prefer
them now

~~~
skocznymroczny
See, it's weird, but I feel the opposite. The high-rise of mech keyboards
forces me to put my wrists in an awkward position. The long distance of the
keys makes my fingers tired quickly and type slower. With low profile
keyboards my hands flow over the keys very quickly, with mech keyboard I find
myself having to delay myself a bit with each key to make sure it's pressed.

Unpopular opinion: I really like the new MacBook keyboards. I can't speak for
their durability, but I like the typing experience on them.

------
Rumudiez
Aside from the switches, which do sound interesting, it seems a little less
ergonomic than an Ergodox[0] or Kinesis Advantage[1].

0: [https://ergodox-ez.com/](https://ergodox-ez.com/)

1: [https://www.kinesis-ergo.com/shop/advantage2/](https://www.kinesis-
ergo.com/shop/advantage2/)

~~~
flogic
I'll give it points for the arrow keys. There just really isn't much in the
way of good positions for arrow keys on a split layout. That said I don't like
what it's doing with the thumbs. Thumbs want to move radially more than in and
out.

~~~
brokenmachine
I have my Ergodox set up so I hold down a thumb key and it activates a layer
so my right hand has arrow keys and pgup/pgdown/home/end right there on the
home row.

I can't live without it now.

~~~
flogic
My keyboard is set up in a similar manner but it adds a point of complexity.
Ctrl-Shift-Arrow is harder to use since the Fn key is trying to take up a
thumb.

~~~
brokenmachine
I still prefer that complexity to having to move my entire hand from the home
row to use the arrow keys. I'm very used to it now.

------
thiht
>Slim Body made of high-grade Aerospace Aluminum alloy

Why is this good? Does my keyboard need to be resistant to cosmic rays and
stuff?

What are the benefits of an "high-grade Aerospace Aluminum alloy" for a
keyboard?

------
mivvy
I used the original Truly Ergonomic (TECK) for several years and really liked
it overall. However of the three I bought, two had serious key chatter issues
and it's very difficult to get any support. The company has a really poor
reputation as demonstrated by many threads on Geekhack
([https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=89035.0](https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=89035.0))

I switched to the Ergodox (currently Infinity model) and am very satisfied,
but they can be a little difficult to source. Hopefully this new model is a
viable alternative.

~~~
dmix
What does key chatter mean in practical terms?

Also what was the learning curve like for these strange split keyboards like
Ergodox?

~~~
brokenmachine
Read this great blog post about Truly Ergonomic chatter.

[http://www.cataclysmicmutation.com/2014/03/28/truly-
unrespon...](http://www.cataclysmicmutation.com/2014/03/28/truly-
unresponsive/)

I have two of them (apparently I had to learn the lesson twice), both exhibit
chatter to varying degrees. It seems to lessen the more you use the keyboard,
but comes back if you leave it for a while. It is super inconsistent and
annoying and absolutely ridiculous for keyboards of that price.

Also their support is non-existent. The firmware latency settings can help a
bit but if you make it slow enough to not do double-presses, then the keyboard
feels unresponsive and you'll get more missed presses. Total bullshit.

I'd never EVER buy another product from them. They should be out of business
in my opinion.

I have an Ergodox now and very happy.

~~~
dmix
Wow, that sounds awfully annoying. Thanks for the link.

I dont get why these companies go unresponsive when selling a high end
product. They must be happy in their little niche market position, without
much competition.

------
lcuff
I have a keyboardio, which has a very radical split design with a function key
that you hit with the part of the palm close to the base of the thumb (either
hand). I think it's amazing, but there's definitely a learning curve. Not one
to worry about for people that use a keyboard many hours a day. You just want
to give yourself a ramp-up time, starting with a bit of usage, and building up
to full-time use.

------
jtms
looks great, but i doubt ill ever give up my Kinesis Advantage unless
something truly mind blowing comes along

~~~
singularity2001
No RSI ever since switching to Kinesis Freestyle

------
lowmagnet
I have an earlier TECK from them, and it was OK, but the middle row used weird
custom keys so key swapping was not possible in the middle stack. This fixes
that and goes with a slightly more toward ergodox layout.

The interesting thing is the switches. Optical switches _should_ never fail,
unless dust intrudes. It's not a well-tested technology but time will tell on
the design.

------
ElCapitanMarkla
I got one of the Microsoft Sculpt setups last year
[https://www.microsoft.com/accessories/en-
us/products/keyboar...](https://www.microsoft.com/accessories/en-
us/products/keyboards/sculpt-ergonomic-desktop/l5v-00001) and have been more
than happy with it.

------
eyeball
Looks tempting but I just got my ultimate hacking keyboard. Need to give that
some time to get into the muscle memory.

~~~
antimora
I ordered a month ago but I have not received it yet. How did it take to
receive yours?

Link for curious about this keyboard:
[https://ultimatehackingkeyboard.com/](https://ultimatehackingkeyboard.com/)

~~~
eyeball
Was in on their crowdfunding site crowdsupply for more than a year. I think
they’re close to it not done with those and into regular production now.

------
IshKebab
This makes the mistake that all split keyboards make of not duplicating the
keys near the split line. Not everybody touch-types in the perfectly ordained
"you will use this finger for this key" way and it is pretty annoying when
your right hand goes for a "b" and it isn't there.

------
hanniabu
> 100% Anti‑Ghosting technology with Full N‑Key Rollover

What is ghosting in this context and what is Full N_Key Rollover?

~~~
bonestamp2
It refers to the way the circuit board is designed. Older keyboards were
generally designed with the intention that only one, maybe two, keys would be
held down at once.

But, modern applications (especially games), often require or support many
keys to be pressed at once. This has required keyboard circuits to be designed
to handle that. Ghosting is what happens when it's not designed to handle that
(the computer registers key presses that weren't actually pressed) and N_Key
Rollover is what you get when you eliminate ghosting and allow N number of
keys to be pressed at once.

------
Animats
Looks like the Microsoft Natural Keyboard.[1] Minus the cursor and number
pads. I still have one on my Windows 7 machine.

[1] [https://www.microsoft.com/accessories/en-
us/products/keyboar...](https://www.microsoft.com/accessories/en-
us/products/keyboards/natural-ergonomic-keyboard-4000/b2m-00012)

~~~
theptip
I used to use and swear by that keyboard, and I can attest that there is a
very large quality difference between the Microsoft keyboard and all the other
options discussed in this thread. (The Microsoft keyboard is far inferior).

Removing the number pad makes a big difference to ergonomics since your mouse
is in the right place rather than way off to the side.

Also the switches on the Microsoft keyboard were dome-switches last time I
bought one, which means the keys require a very high force, and feel pretty
gummy to actuate. This might not be a problem for everybody, but if you have
(or are concerned about developing) RSI/carpal tunnel then reducing the force
per keystroke is critical.

The OP, plus all the other ergo keyboards mentioned (ErgoDox, Kinesis, etc.)
all have mechanical switches which are much nicer/healthier to type on.

------
ztjio
Who else gets wicked sore wrists typing on these "ergonomic" keyboards?
Perhaps it's because I've typed on regular boards for over 30 years, but,
these ergonomic layouts actually hurt me. No normal keyboards bother me at
all.

------
mthwsjc_
can anyone say what this optical switch is about?

~~~
ztjio
Gimmickry, nothing more. Switches are a commodity so making something new and
special sounding gives a price boost and some popularity for a while.
Activation by breaking a light beam vs. activation by completing a circuit,
the difference is not going to be noticeable to a human.

------
Fnoord
Two plus sides: No caps lock, no Windows logo.

------
time-domain0
Umm, okay. IMHO, the most ergonomic keyboard ever was the (defunct) DataHand
Professional II. It was so damn expensive that they drove themselves out of
business by suboptimal profit maximization. If they cut production costs and
cut wholesale prices, they could've made a killing and survived. It seemed
like an inventor-led, garage-based company lacking a CFO, design-for-
manufacturing engineering and investors.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DataHand](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DataHand)

