

How to Exploit a Developer - Reddena
https://medium.com/@sir_castiq/how-to-exploit-a-developer-a005306d5320

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chewxy
This isn't just happening in Nigeria. Sydney Opera House ran something almost
as vile as this too[0]. The eventually relented and relaxed the IP clause, but
this sort of scumbaggy behaviour is becoming common now that everyone is
jumping onto the hackathon bandwagon

[0]
[http://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/11/18/sydney_opera_house_t...](http://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/11/18/sydney_opera_house_to_devs_build_our_app_for_free_wear_patent_pain/)

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vijayaggarwal
Once, during an interview, the interviewer started asking me solutions to very
real-world problems which I could immediately understand they must have been
facing at that time. A high level discussion was fine to judge my ability, but
he started getting deep into the implementation details. I got the sense that
he is trying to get a solution to his problem in the pretext of interview. I
gave him the solutions as I would have anyway done so had anybody asked for
help. I have since then thought many times but could not decide if it was
unethical or just a harmless stroke of creativity.

OPs case certainly seems to have cross the limit of ethics though.

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scrumper
Consider it a very short work sample test? I don't think it's particularly
unethical; if anything it's better for you to be demonstrating your expertise
for real rather than figuring out how to get chickens and foxes over a river.

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LanceH
If they aren't actually hiring, it's definitely unethical.

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mnw21cam
What costs more - hiring a consultant for a few hours, or putting out a proper
job advert, organising the logistics for handling submitted applications,
sorting through the candidates, choosing several, receiving them at interview,
booking a suitable room, and possibly covering their travel costs?

I would imagine that in quite a few situations, the consultant would be
cheaper.

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LanceH
I agree completely with everything you just said, except...

Except that I've seen it happen. The only thing I can think is that all the
costs you describe are pushed to another group in the corporation.

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mnw21cam
My first job interview went like this. They had a specific problem that they
wanted to solve, and asked me how I would do it. I gave my answer (solving the
problem for them), and they offered me the job, so I got to spend the next six
months implementing my suggestion.

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LanceH
I had a rather lengthy interview process for a one time contract doing some
technical documentation. I explained what docs I would provide, how they would
be organized and an example of the main docs being used. They ate it all up,
and decided to use my stuff as templates using current staff after offering
and then rescinding the job.

At the time I decided against pursuing any action against them because I
wanted to look ahead to the next opportunity. In retrospect, I should have
billed them for my work which they were using.

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evv
Sigh, I suppose we're supposed to feel outraged. Believe it or not, other
industries have faced their share of exploitation too.

Software development, at its lowest level, is a new form of labor. It's only
natural for the economy of the world to search for the next big source of
labor which can be exploited for cheap development. The market is also
experimenting with different schemes and mechanisms by which to exploit. Let's
not act surprised- what we do is not incomprehensible magic; the labour
situation is fundamentally the same as every other industry. Software is new
though, so it will take a while for the global economy to figure out just who
and how to squeeze, in order to harvest that sweet sweet software juice. Lets
just say globalization has its consequences.

If you're living in the third world and you can code for work, you're probably
doing better than most people in your area, who are likely being exploited for
their physical labour or worse. We should feel outraged for those living in
slave-like working conditions. Lets talk about ending that. What we're seeing
here is just a tiny side-effect of economic development; lets try to address
the worst.

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lhc-
Are you arguing that, because other industries also face exploitation, we
should not be concerned about it in software development? Just because there
are others who have it even worse doesn't mean that we should ignore
exploitation in our field. That argument makes it very difficult to take any
action, because you can almost always find someone else worse off.

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evv
I'm suggesting that, as hackers, we ought to try and "cure" this disease that
the economy tends to have on the world, rather than complaining about the
symptoms that pertain to us. If we're gonna talk symptoms, there are more
serious examples of human labor exploitation.

And I'm all for action against any type of exploitation, but I haven't heard
any ideas suggested here. If you have an idea on how to specifically address
exploitation of software developers, I'm all ears. Maybe those ideas could
later be transferred to help protect workers in other industries.

Lets figure out how to fix this. One of the most basic ideas is a union. It
would be easy to unionize in a basic form, but I wonder if a developer union
could hold any power.

What if some hip new language/framework had a unique license with some higher-
level ethical clauses, backed by a tight-knit developer community? Such that
developers are at least theoretically protected when they write code in that
ecosystem.

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chuckwnelson
As a graphic design major turned programmer, this was very common to students
in design school. Never have seen it with dev projects though.

I think new students and freelancers need to be aware of these type of scams
in all their forms.

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loganu
Yep, graphic and industrial designers get worked over by stuff like this all
the time. A big company puts out a "design competition" and hundreds of
students, amateurs, and people early in their careers submit work. Often, by
submitting you're giving away any intellectual property. A $5,000-$50,000
competition will net the winner a little cash, the company a new logo or
product idea or large amount of material to brainstorm with, some advertising
and some goodwill with designers... and the non-winning designers get nothing.

Anyone who's been in the industry for a bit will stay clear. There are tons of
people in the industry calling for the end of this practice as it devalues the
industry (quality of work and the compensation).

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lostcolony
I'm curious on the exact legalese (not so much to go look it up though). "The
year-in, year-out maintenance and support of the app shall be the sole
responsibilities of the winner." \- Okay. And if I don't do it, then what?
This stipulates they're solely my responsibilities, but that means I get to
decide what maintenance and support is necessary, too.

The rest of it is terrible though. Upon winning you have to complete the app
according to unspecified additional requirements? Without any guarantee of
additional pay or anything else? Ha ha ha ha ha. No. I don't care if you need
the money, don't even try such a thing; you're selling your life for $3k.

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Reddena
Thanks. I thought so too.

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TamDenholm
While this is absolutely appalling from our standpoint, other countries dont
play by the same rules. Nigeria has a lot of poverty and while i've no idea
what the cost of living is over there, i bet $3k goes a lot further there,
than in the US.

So while that IS exploitative, it should be better and i dont condone it at
all, its perhaps the first step in a road to a better tech industry. Sometimes
an industry doesnt just start at the end goal, it has to have a few shitty
iterations before things improve.

Perhaps the next competition will be fairer after learning some lessons by
running this one?

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basicallydan
I think the most troubling part of it is essentially becoming a full-time
employee of the business running the competition. It wouldn't be so bad if
they just took the app, handed over the money and parted ways but now they're
responsible for maintenance with no extra compensation. Seems quite dangerous
to me.

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lostcolony
And as I commented elsewhere, you're also agreeing to complete the app
according to unspecified, additional requirements. It's not just maintenance;
you're agreeing to do unlimited dev work up front for no additional pay, too.

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tim333
In fairness (perhaps) to them "A Service Contract Agreement, Service Level
Agreement and Source Code Escrow Agreement shall be signed between the
organisers and the winner to guarantee the operations of the app year-in,
year-out" implies to me that they will agree to pay something in return. I
doubt they'd expect the developer to service the thing for ever and ever for
nothing?

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weaksauce
That's my take on it as well. Just a poorly worded website I think.

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evv
I had assumed the worst: that the escrow was for the payout of the initial $3k
prize, or some significant portion of it.

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alphagenerator
I think you can browse Craigslist and find at least one ad like this every
week in every major American city.

I chalk up developer pricing to inexperience and not malice, but sometimes I
am not so sure.

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woah
So, install wordpress?

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marknutter
How to Let Yourself Get Exploited as a Developer

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duwease
The worst part is, to collect your winnings you need to email your account
details to the deposed prince..

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lewisflude
Very sneaky indeed. This is why you always read the contract.

