
How I Used and Abused My Tesla – What a Tesla Looks Like After 100,000 Miles - taylorwc
https://medium.com/@SteveSasman/how-i-used-abused-my-tesla-what-a-tesla-looks-like-after-100-000-miles-a-48-state-road-trip-6b6ae66b3c10#.mgqlymg7c
======
dragonwriter
> However, once people realize they can pay $35,000 for a killer car that can
> earn them $30,000 in a year by simply pressing a button and telling your car
> to go pick up passengers for you while you work or sleep

Long before that is the case, there'd be no incentive for the manufacturer to
sell the car at all; they'd make more money just pushing the button themselves
the minute the car rolled off the assembly line.

~~~
Clubber
>Long before that is the case, there'd be no incentive for the manufacturer to
sell the car at all; they'd make more money just pushing the button themselves
the minute the car rolled off the assembly line.

If they sold a car, they get profit immediately. If they kept the car for
their own fleet, it would take longer to earn the same profit and then add
additional overhead of maintaining the fleet, the reservation system, refunds,
additional litigation, etc. Also, if the market is super saturated, they can
sell cars to companies unable to make a profit. The manufacturer still gets
the sale even thought the car doesn't realize a profit through a fleet.

The smart move would be to sell cars and also keep a fleet. It really depends
on how well they could manage the fleet being a car manufacturer. They are
quite different businesses and you don't get much overlap, other than the
vehicle at cost and perhaps maintenance parts.

The even smarter move would be to franchise the fleet so you push off the
management and operating costs but increase your sales and take part of the
profit for branding, advertising, etc. The fleet would of course cross brand
the vehicles.

~~~
rhino369
>If they sold a car, they get profit immediately. If they kept the car for
their own fleet, it would take longer to earn the same profit and then add
additional overhead of maintaining the fleet, the reservation system, refunds,
additional litigation, etc.

A car company can raise capital and manage fleets much better than individuals
can.

~~~
Clubber
A car rental company could do that even better than a car manufacturer.

~~~
rhino369
I imagine if a car company really did invent an autonomous car that works
almost 100% of the time, they'd do a joint venture with a car rental place.

But the car company has a competitive advantage in that it could choose not to
sell to anyone while they build out a fleet maintenance operation.

But if multiple companies solve the problem at the same time, maybe Hertz has
the advantage.

------
tinco

        "Tesla also has an 8 year, unlimited mileage warranty for the Drive Train & Battery. This was great, as I did have the drive train replaced at about 65,000 miles and the battery replaced at about 76,000 miles."
    

You can read this as:

    
    
        "Tesla also has an 8 year, unlimited mileage warranty for the engine and fuel tank. This was great, as I did have the engine replaced at about 65,000 miles and the fuel tank replaced at about 76,000 miles."
    

That just makes it that much crazier. The most important and expensive
components of this car actually do break down fairly quickly, but the
manufacturer just covers them under a lifetime warranty!

~~~
NickM
The fact that the entire drivetrain was replaced sounds bad, unless you
understand the unique way that Tesla handles service. Their cars are actually
designed so the drivetrain can very easily be removed and replaced, so when
there's any kind of problem, they just go ahead and replace the whole thing
for the sake of expediency. Then they can refurbish the damaged drive unit on
their own schedule and use it to repair the next car that comes in with
drivetrain problems.

Because of this, they'll sometimes replace the whole drivetrain for something
as minor as an odd sound. A drivetrain replacement doesn't mean the same thing
that it does with your typical gas car.

Similar deal with the battery pack. It just drops right out of the bottom of
the car, so it makes for a better service experience if they can just replace
it and give the car straight back rather than leaving the owner without a car
while they embark on a potentially lengthy repair process.

~~~
olyjohn
Swapping out the drivetrain for minor issues is great when the car is under
warranty. But what about when the warranty is up? What is the bill going to
look like to replace all that?

When they start putting in, as you say, refurbed parts that already had 70,000
miles on them, will they really be as good as new?

~~~
DiabloD3
Tesla knows that fucking people is bad for business. Even when you're #1, it's
how you quickly not be #1. Even when you collude with your "competitors" in
the #2 and #3 spots to make sure #4 is always very far away, #4 eventually
becomes #1 after enough tries (and, usually, after enough #4s).

Tesla most likely will charge something that makes Detroit look bad. A Tesla
drivetrain has a fraction of the complexity and parts a gas or diesel vehicle
has.

Also, the Model S drivetrain is somewhat the first of it's kind. There have
been single speed transmissions made before in cars (in and out of electric
vehicles), there have been high torque transmissions made (for vehicles much
larger than a Model S), but nothing quite like the unique problem the Model S
presents.

The oldest Model Ses are now on their 4th year of warranty. Presumably, most
failures so far have been in the first production revision of the product, and
given the highly iterative nature of Tesla's product workflow, they have
improved the product based on real world feedback.

I don't want to know what the first generation drivetrain failure rate is, as
they will be covered under the 8 year/unlimited miles warranty, and replaced
with the newest revisions. I want to know what today's drivetrains will look
like in 4 to 8 years.

Also, in comparison, most vehicles _don 't last longer than 8 years_. Most
people will have put over 100 thousand miles on their vehicle at that point,
most vehicles start falling apart just over the 125 thousand miles line,
unless you've been very meticulous about babying your vehicle.

Tesla's bet is that massively reducing the number of parts and complexity of
said parts will dramatically cut down on failure. This is a long term bet, and
early analysis of the first generation of Model Ses only paints half the
picture. The whole picture seems to illustrate that Tesla is very good at
iterative design, something Detroit does not value as a skill.

Edit: As a side note, I live in Maine. Maybe we're just especially hard on
vehicles up here.

~~~
sz4kerto
> Also, in comparison, most vehicles don't last longer than 8 years. Most
> people will have put over 100 thousand miles on their vehicle at that point,
> most vehicles start falling apart just over the 125 thousand miles line,
> unless you've been very meticulous about babying your vehicle.

That's sounds crazy. Where I live (Europe), a car with 100k miles is maybe at
40% of it's lifetime. My car has almost 100k in it, and it is completely fine
(it's a French (!) car), it has two small scratches on it and everything works
as expected (no, it's not babied if you don't consider a 2 yo baby sitting in
it).

This is anecdata of course, but really, 100k miles is nothing. My father
drives a Skoda with 420k miles in it at the moment -- it definitely doesn't
look like new but it works.

~~~
ansible
_> > Also, in comparison, most vehicles don't last longer than 8 years. Most
people will have put over 100 thousand miles on their vehicle at that point,
most vehicles start falling apart just over the 125 thousand miles line,
unless you've been very meticulous about babying your vehicle._

 _> That's sounds crazy._

That is crazy. Unless you like having car payments, or that "new car" smell,
you can get 200k miles from most cars without a lot of "babying". This means
regular oil changes and such. And you need to pay attention. Noises, loss of
oil, and such indicate problems that don't just fix themselves.

What really harms a car's lifetime is the willingness of the owner to take
care of it. And rust (at least in the parts of the world that get snow).

~~~
ghaff
In the northeast US almost every car I've owned has ultimately been retired
predominantly due to rust. The car I now own with 160K miles I haven't driven
in the winter for a number of years and the mechanics at the dealer are always
surprised that I have this model (which I bought in its final model year) on
the road and that it hasn't rusted out.

It is 20 years old and things are still improving but rust as a limiting
factor on lifetimes in the winter.

------
vaishaksuresh
>However, once people realize they can pay $35,000 for a killer car that can
earn them $30,000 in a year by simply pressing a button and telling your car
to go pick up passengers for you while you work or sleep — it’s game over.

That is not happening in the near future. At least not in a meaningful scale.

~~~
msoad
And if it does happen, you will not be the one owning and profiting from those
cars...

~~~
SilasX
Well, you could do it to defray some of the cost of the car by making use of
its idle hours, but it probably wouldn't make sense to buy a car _just_ (or
even _mostly_ ) to rent it out, for much the same reason that individuals
don't do it today.

Plus, when Teslas are usable as self-driving cars, the value of the rides
provided will drop precipitously -- that figure would be more like $5000, and
you'd have to lock up usable hours for it and perhaps pay some penalty to
renege on specific hours.

~~~
prostoalex
Those two effects are mutually opposing forces - are car owners willing to
take the risk of someone contaminating their car by smoking, spilling, eating,
puking or having sex to earn a pretty penny?

~~~
wolf550e
I think all robotaxis will have inward facing dashcams that transmits into a
vault in the cloud in near real time. If the car comes back undamaged, the
video is deleted.

People who hire robotaxis might need to have money in escrow if they don't
have enough reputation.

~~~
vertex-four
Escrow really doesn't exist on a personal level today - why would people
suddenly go from the current situation to being perfectly find putting
hundreds/thousands of dollars in an escrow account in the future? What do we
do about people who can't afford that?

~~~
vishvananda
We have the equivalent for car and room rentals. The escrow is just a hidden
feature of our credit cards.

If you try to rent a car without a credit card, you are usually required to
put down a deposit.

~~~
vertex-four
Note that in my country, it's rare for hotel rooms to require credit cards or
deposits. (Debit cards are required so they can charge you later if necessary,
but they don't put a hold on them.) There's certain chains that do, but it's
mostly an American thing.

Renting a car requires one, but there's also more generally a high barrier to
renting a car - plenty of forms, showing your license, booking in advance, etc
etc. There's also no choice. The same is not true for getting in a taxi. Why
would I put down a deposit to ride in an automated car, really?

------
mkhalil
Am I the only one who feels like depreciation should of been taken into
consideration when he was calculating how much it cost?

~~~
blakes
I think deprecation should only be taken into consideration if one is planning
on selling the car in the future, and I get the feeling that he is planning on
driving that car into the ground.

~~~
aardvark291
In which case the value will reach $0. That's called depreciation...

~~~
roninb
I think the point being made was, if you don't plan on selling something, does
it matter what it's worth?

As in, I'm not going to factor my child's value into my assets since I'm not
going to sell it. Or in the OP's case, since his car will never be sold, it's
not relevant how much value he's losing by keeping it for x years. Not that
the car's value doesn't depreciate, just that the value of the car isn't ever
important after the initial cost.

~~~
rhino369
Even if you plant to drive it into the ground, you have to spread the cost of
the car over the lifetime of it's use. If the Telsa only lasts 9 years, that's
is going to add cost to his usage. If it lasts 30 years, that's going to
reduce the cost of usage.

Otherwise any sort of calculation of expenses is missing one of the biggest
components, the cost of the car.

~~~
roninb
> Otherwise any sort of calculation of expenses is missing one of the biggest
> components, the cost of the car.

They include the cost of the car as the first calculation...

> Total Cost of Ownership:

>> Cost of Tesla: $79,000 used with 35,000 miles

Is that not enough? Do you need to calculate the potential earnings every day
that you decide not to sell the car over it's lifetime?

Also, perhaps this is tangential, but the author was calculating how much they
had lost or saved over the course of ownership up to that point. I feel like
the OP in this subthread didn't actually read the article and just commented
after skimming over the cost breakdown thinking it was supposed to be
something it wasn't (i.e., a cost/benefit analysis for the car's lifetime).

------
joesmo
Ok, but what are the costs beyond $100k? Even the worst cars as far as
maintenance (BMWs and such) can make it to $100k fairly reasonably. This is
even more important in the Tesla apparently because after 8 years you're shit
out of luck on the powertrain apparently, at least according to another post
here, and that's where the actual expensive parts lie. If this guy comes back
in a few years (after the warranty expires) with this same Tesla at 200k still
going strong and still having spent only a couple thousand max on repairs,
that'll be a real achievement. As it stands, this simply shows the Tesla is
not a total lemon, incredibly useful information, but expected.

------
Houshalter
A contrary article to this piece, is this submission, _Why I think Tesla is
building throwaway cars_ :
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11233898](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11233898)

Their main point is not that Tesla cars are badly manufactured. But that they
don't make repair manuals available, they don't sell replacement parts, they
lock down access to the car's systems, don't give salvage titles, and that
these cars will be very difficult and expensive to repair in the future.

~~~
serge2k
Yeah but Tesla. Tech startup. Wooo disruptive and wonderful.

If ford tried it people would complain, but Tesla locking things down is just
fine.

------
eddieh
Flagstaff, AZ gets electricity from the Cholla Power Plant in Northern
Arizona. The plant burns coal and is considered one of the dirtiest power
stations in the nation.

Just consider that owning a Tesla or any plug-in electric in Flagstaff is
completely backwards.

~~~
dirtyaura
Correct me if I'm wrong, but quick calculation indicates that Tesla using only
energy from Cholla (one of the dirtiest plants in the US) would produce about
the same amount of CO2 (13.6kg per 100km) as 5L/100km car (Ford Fiesta) would
produce (12kg per 100km).

As you can probably improve your electricity mix quite easily, it sounds like
that from fuel CO2 emission perspective, electric car is always at least as
good choice as gasoline car.

~~~
mrswag
Once you factor in the environmental cost associated with production, I'm not
sure it's as clear cut. Batteries are nasty.

~~~
hx87
They can also be recycled almost indefinitely.

~~~
JoeAltmaier
I'm not aware that lithium batteries can be recycled at all?

~~~
hx87
Lithium ion batteries have been recyclable for a while now-- Best Buy has
receptacles for used ones. It's been slow to get off the ground because virgin
production is still rather cheap.

~~~
JoeAltmaier
Hm. This article seems to say that no process is available yet. Perhaps
they're not being 'recycled' but re-used?
[http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2214993714...](http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2214993714000037)

~~~
hx87
There is no process for recycling /automotive/ lithium ion batteries, but
that's because their use is so recent--the first commercially available
lithium ion EV (Tesla Roadster) wasn't released until 2008. However, EV
batteries are essentially the same as commodity lithium ion batteries (e.g.
stacks of 18650 cells that you can buy on Amazon), and those have been
recycled for a while.

------
revelation

        As this was the first really expensive car I’ve owned, I needed to find a way to help pay for the car. Naturally, Uber came to mind
    

The subprime lending crisis in a nutshell

~~~
S_A_P
Interesting take. There is already a subprime lending crisis in the automotive
loan market, along with a glut of used cars that somehow arent depreciating. I
wonder if people start deciding that they want to overspend on a car they want
and decide to "uber" their way into affording it...

~~~
greenshackle
Quickly followed by articles blaming Uber for it.

~~~
S_A_P
Agreed and that was not a shot at uber it was more just remarking on the
nature of bubbles

------
arprocter
"I did have the drive train replaced at about 65,000 miles and the battery
replaced at about 76,000 miles"

Is that a regular occurrence?

~~~
olyjohn
I sure hope not. Many gas cars don't even go in for their first service until
100,000 miles. 300,000 is not even difficult to hit on any car built in the
last 30 years.

~~~
arprocter
It undermines the whole article, seeing as the tone is 'wow my car made it to
100k'

I'd be interested to hear the reasons so much needed to be replaced, instead
of just a passing mention that a large amount of repairs were done

~~~
dragontamer
> I'd be interested to hear the reasons so much needed to be replaced

Seems like a large-scale manufacturing defect affecting 2013 and 2014 Tesla
Model S.

[http://www.consumerreports.org/cars/tesla-reliability-
doesnt...](http://www.consumerreports.org/cars/tesla-reliability-doesnt-match-
its-high-performance/)

> The main problem areas involved the drivetrain, power equipment, charging
> equipment, giant iPad-like center console, and body and sunroof squeaks,
> rattles, and leaks.

------
matt_morgan
Everything about cars is changing fast. I was a skeptic, now I'm sold (not
just owing to this article, but this is a great example).

~~~
castratikron
Together with electric cars, autonomous driving, and ride-brokering services
like Uber and Lyft, we really are in a primordial soup phase of
transportation. There's going to be some rapid changes even in the next 5 or
10 years.

------
vosper
How on earth did it cost $1000 to get a door handle repaired?!

~~~
jms18
They aren't like a doorknob.

I had to replace an interior door handle on a '99 Miata (interior is far
easier than an exterior; exterior means pulling the door skin off for access
and having to deal with paint matching), and a Miata is real straightforward
repair job. But I still took a photo of each and every little piece I pulled
off not knowing when one would break or be deformed before or after this
process. (And having to locate a dealership to order the part shipped while
showing him a handful of broken parts and a complete photo of "this
doohickey".)

$1000 would be steep price to pay for a Corrolla but not outlandish. I would
bet the cost of replacing one on a BMW 3 series would be more.

------
maxxxxx
I wonder when the free charging is over. That energy still has to be produced
somehow somewhere.

~~~
Vexs
I suspect all of tesla's high end cars will always have it- their lower grade
cars are probably going to have a subscription of some kind.

Also, consider that tesla essentially owns the largest amount of electric
stops in the US. They've got their foot in the door, no other manufacturer is
going to come close. When electric cars really kick into gear, tesla controls
the gas pumps, and can charge everyone else, while still giving free to their
own cars, which is a pretty good incentive.

~~~
prostoalex
Model 3 will offer supercharger access as a subscription, not a free bundle
included with the purchase price [http://arstechnica.com/cars/2016/06/no-free-
superchargers-fo...](http://arstechnica.com/cars/2016/06/no-free-
superchargers-for-teslas-model-3-h2-stations-grow-in-ca/)

~~~
schiffern
Correction: Model 3 will offer supercharger access as a subscription _in
addition to_ a [paid up front] bundle included with the purchase price.

(it's never been "free", just added on to the purchase price as an option, and
later as a standard feature)

Ignore the editorialized headline. The actual quote is:

>The obvious thing to do is decouple the Supercharger Network from the cost of
the Model 3. So it will still be very cheap—and far cheaper than gasoline—to
drive long-distance with the Model 3, but it will not be free long distance
for life _unless you’ve purchased that package._ \-- Elon Musk
[http://www.plugincars.com/model-3-owners-will-pay-access-
tes...](http://www.plugincars.com/model-3-owners-will-pay-access-tesla-
superchargers-131764.html)

~~~
prostoalex
Right, Tesla is not forthcoming on the details, so this is all pure
speculation. If I _had to_ guess, most Model 3 buyers would balk at paying for
the Supercharger option at purchase time, as it increases the cost of the
vehicle significantly (even at $3,000 that would be a 10% markup to the total
price of the vehicle), with most surmising they could probably get by with
free charging available at supermarkets, malls, office complexes, public spots
or parking garages.

Tesla has the technical capability though to sell Supercharger access in time-
limited slots (unlimited Supercharger access for the next 7 days, good for
that coast-to-coast trip one is planning), on per-kWh basis (plug in, have
your credit card on file with Tesla app, start charging), as well as introduce
variable pricing (more expensive kWh during periods of heavy use and long
lines at Superchargers, cheaper and/or free access during periods of low
activity). Historically they've been very driver-friendly, so if I had to
guess, they might make all of those options available, as they each cover a
specific use case.

------
devy
Here is another positive testimonial[1] of Tesla Model S's long term
reliability. Great reliability, simpler design (than conventional ICE cars),
unlimited mileage warranty and cheaper per-mile operating cost make Tesla
Model S a terrific choice for taxis.

[1] [http://jalopnik.com/heres-how-a-tesla-taxi-held-up-
after-100...](http://jalopnik.com/heres-how-a-tesla-taxi-held-up-
after-100-000-miles-1785360286)

~~~
serge2k
Did that one require a drivetrain replacement too?

------
dsfyu404ed
I'll be impressed if that was 100k of "taking corners in a spirited manner on
potholed" roads, something every car sold to an auto enthusiast in a state
with a real winter is subject to. That's where I draw the line for "hard
miles". Putting around the southwest in a manner that doesn't scare customers
isn't hard miles. "Abused" is a misleading title.

------
foolfoolz
biggest story on here is 500 uber rides only made $6000 dollars

~~~
tedmiston
And that's probably before taxes :/

------
tedmiston
Now that's epic.

> Tesla Road Trip Savings: My 27,615 mile (the circumference of the Earth is
> 24,901 miles) 48 State plus Canada road trip cost $8.37. I had to pay for
> electricity 2 times, the rest was FREE thanks to the Tesla SuperCharger
> network. There were about 180 SuperChargers when I started the trip. There
> are now almost 300 in the USA. Gas savings assuming a 25 MPG car using a
> national average of $2.75 a gallon = $3037.

------
woodandsteel
If a Tesla is this cheap to drive, and self-driving cars cut out the labor
costs of transportation services, then it becomes cheaper to just use Uber et
al than own your own car. At that point the ICE auto industry will be really
screwed, and the switch to all EV cars could come about a lot faster than has
been predicted.

------
deevus
I really want to buy a Tesla. Like really bad.

Out of curiosity I had a look at the current pricing of a Tesla in Australia.
My jaw just about dropped when I found that a new P90D costs $255,000 AUD.
That is a difference of $50,000 if you convert the US price to Australian.
Ouch.

------
colinprince
Also see previously:

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12304241](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12304241)

