

Ask HN: Why aren't the Japanese using robots at Fukushima?  - gnosis

Many articles on the currently unfolding nuclear disaster at Fukushima describe how the crew at Fukushima is failing to get the disaster under control because they can't get close enough because of the high levels of radiation.<p>This seems like a perfect opportunity to use robots, since they aren't nearly as vulnerable to radiation as humans are.<p>For example, here's a description of why attempts to use water canons to cool fuel rods failed:<p><i>"Hopes were also raised when several police water cannons, designed for use in riots, were brought in and used to blast water towards the empty pool next to reactor number four in which spent fuel rods were in danger of melting.<p>Again, the high radiation readings meant the machines could not get close enough to the plant to get the water on target, and at one point the vehicles were forced to retreat, before resuming attempts that had limited success."</i><p>http://www.montrealgazette.com/news/Desperate+measures+kamikaze+mission+cool+exposed+fuel+rods/4458612/story.html<p>Why couldn't have a mobile robot on treads be fitted with a camera and water cannon and be remotely wheeled in to position to aim the cannon at the pool containing the spent fuel rods?<p>Or this:<p><i>"Jaczko, chairman of the Nuclear Regulatory Commission, said his staff in Tokyo had been told by Japanese utility officials that cooling water that normally covers spent fuel was nearly or totally gone from an uncovered concrete pool above reactor Unit 4. ...<p>'We can't get inside to check, but we've been carefully watching the building's environs, and there has not been any particular problem," Hajime Motojuku, a spokesman for Tokyo Electric, said'"</i><p>http://www.nytimes.com/cwire/2011/03/17/17climatewire-fukushima-crisis-worsens-as-us-warns-of-a-lar-9187.html<p>Why not use a little remotely operated helicopter or plane fitted with a camera, much like many hobbiests do around the world?  It could be flown in to and through the building, or at least in a very close flyover of the building, and have a look inside.<p>Or, even simpler, why not just use a robot mounted on wheels or treads and carrying a camera?  It could simply be remotely directed to drive in to the building and send back a video feed of what the cameras showed.<p>Japan is world-renown for its robotic technology.  And yet in this disaster they are not using robots to go where humans can't because of the radiation risk.  Why?
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yread
Perhaps the (normal) robots are not that much less vulnerable - after all
electronics have to be hardened to be usable in space precisely because of
high-energy radiation and particle radiation. ECC RAM probably wouldn't be
enough.

~~~
gnosis
I wonder just how strong the radiation has to be for it to seriously affect
electronics.

I'm not sure the thresholds of radiation exposure that would cause dangers to
the health of humans vs danger to electronics are at all similar.

And, anyway, electronics could be shielded with lead.

This isn't a space mission where every extra fraction of an ounce costs
thousands of dollars to deploy. If the radiation at Fukushima really is a
serious hazard to the electronics on a robot, then shielding should be a
practical option.

~~~
yread
Yes, I don't doubt special robots can and will be developed. But I think the
normal ones can't be used since they don't have the shielding and adding it
would hamper their function.

Also radiation has different ways of damaging people vs electronics. Memory
chip gets hit by radiation and immediately returns random values which can
cause program to crash. Human doesn't feel much - even Slotin who had a
criticality accident and died a few days later, at the moment felt just a
metal taste in his mouth. He would still be able to close valves and so on.

~~~
gnosis
But the question is whether sensitivity to radiation is really the reason
robots aren't being used.

The radiation at the plant might not even be strong enough to affect
electronics at all.

This is all just guesswork.

It would be nice to get some solid answers.

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mturmon
I don't know of any robots that are powerful enough to carry water cannons,
but still able to be deployed in short order to a hazardous and unusual
environment. The robot would have to be very strong: the flow rates they need
to cool all that uranium are really quite huge; the hoses they would be
dragging would be heavy and stiff.

But it does seem like a ground-based robot like a packbot:

<http://www.irobot.com/gi/ground/510_PackBot>

which is used to inspect IEDs, among other things, would be helpful to get
video. As well as airborne drones.

~~~
gnosis
I think the reason they were trying to use water cannons was because of the
great range they offer in shooting water.

They needed that range because humans couldn't go near the pools containing
the spent fuel rods because of the radiation.

But if a robot could get very close, they might not need to use a water
cannon, and could use just a regular water hose. Or they might be able to use
a water cannon but with water coming out at a much lower pressure.

And I'm not sure that the hose dragging is an unsolvable engineering task
either.

They could, for instance, erect a tower with a spool of hose on it. As the
robot moved away from the tower and towards its destination, it could unravel
the hose from the spool and have most if not all of the hose be suspended in
the air behind it.

Another solution could be to have a second robot following the first, to
support a portion of the hose. They could even use a third or a fourth robot
behind the first two, if needed.

Those are just off-the-cuff ideas.. I'm sure professional engineers could
easily think of dozens of other methods to solve the hose-dragging problem.

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teyc
Because they are in unknown territory. Modern robots work in fixed plants with
fixed programming, not in a warzone. Having said that, I would imagine future
plants being purpose built for ease of access by robots. e.g. less stair
cases, more special grips etc.

