
How to create good outcomes when negotiating - katm
http://www.aaronkharris.com/guidelines-when-negotiating
======
joshuaheard
I wrote an article on negotiation when I was a trial attorney that is
applicable to most situations.

"Ten Rules of Negotiation"

[https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resid=641BD45A41B1BD6C!645&a...](https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resid=641BD45A41B1BD6C!645&authkey=!AGgpWzijeR0SK0Q&ithint=file%2c.PDF)

~~~
edj
One issue in negotiating that I never quite know how to resolve is the tension
between two somewhat opposing pieces if advice: _never be the first to give a
number_ and _use anchoring to establish a price_.

~~~
thesteamboat
These are not in conflict -- the anchoring effect (apparently) does not rely
on the numbers being relevant to the discussion. So, prior to the salary
discussion, begin a brief digression into astronomy. Then, with large numbers
firmly lodged in their mind, make them establish the price.

------
Spearchucker
Not sure it's as profound to others as it was for me, but my biggest lesson in
negotiation was the idea of negotiating in bulk. If, say, there are 20 points
to work through, the idea is to know before the negotiation starts which of
them you're going to insist on, which you're willing to barter for, and which
you're ok to lose (i.e. barter with).

As opposed to fighting through each of the 20 items one by one...

~~~
daegloe
You're right about knowing where you stand on each item going into the
negotiation. It's important to point out, however, that savvy corporate
negotiators will insist on stepping through one item at a time, taking a
strong position on most and offering up only a token gesture or two in order
to disguise their true interests, build leverage and the appearance of good
faith.

~~~
sparky_z
I don't think he means "tell the other party where your priorities lie". I
think he means "don't negotiate and finalize each point one at a time" because
if you do that, then you can't give on something you don't care about in order
to get more of something you do care about. I remember getting that exact same
insight from a previous HN thread.

------
rdl
These seem helpful, particularly in multi-round negotiations (which is pretty
much anything in silicon valley, but actually isn't a great model for a lot of
transactions in the wider world, unfortunately), but for me, the single most
important key to getting good outcomes from negotiations is pretty simple:

BATNA. i.e. know what your best alternative to a negotiated agreement is
before starting negotiations, and be able to walk away. As long as I have
that, it's easy to be dispassionate and rational (and thus polite, honest,
thorough, good at documentation, etc.)

~~~
amirmc
> _"... and be able to walk away."_

I've always found this to be the trickiest, both in terms of defining it (in
advance of a negotiation) and being willing to stick to it (during the
discussion). Sometimes understanding that the BATNA is just the time saved can
be helpful.

NB It's related to other advice that 'deals exist in order to fall through'.

------
dethstar
> Do not leave anything to ambiguity - Turns out this is one of the hardest
> things to do, especially in "friendly" negotiations with investors you know
> or friends you might be hiring. Don't assume that something you think is
> implied is agreed upon. Every point that you negotiate should be made
> explicitly.

This wouldve saved me a lot. I just did an internship that was supposed to be
paid, or at least thats what i understood out of my talk with the person in
charge of accepting me for it.

Turns out when i asked for my money i got something along the lines of "well i
said we'd see if i wanted to pay you or not"

Edit: and there was no contract or anything written so i guess im pretty much
screwed.

~~~
lmartel
Assuming you're in the US, there are very strict federal laws about what an
unpaid intern is allowed to do (from [1]):

1\. Interns cannot displace regular employees.

2\. Interns are not guaranteed a job at the end of the internship.

3\. The employer and the intern(s) understand that the interns are not
entitled to wages during the internship period.

4\. Interns must receive training from the company, even if it somewhat
impedes on the work of the organization.

5\. Interns must get hands-on experience with equipment and processes used in
the industry.

6\. Interns' training must primarily benefit them, not the company.

If you were under the impression you'd be paid, they're already in violation
of the law (#3). Most likely your internship violated a few other provisions
as well; an unpaid internship basically has to be "science camp" to be legal,
little productive work can be produced except by accident.

[1]
[http://www.dol.gov/whd/regs/compliance/whdfs71.htm](http://www.dol.gov/whd/regs/compliance/whdfs71.htm)

Edit: And, please do pursue legal action if you have the time and energy to do
so, or refer the case to someone who does. Illegal unpaid internships are
exploitative and industries reliant on them end up locking out everyone who
can't afford to work for free (anyone but the children of the wealthy).

~~~
cryoshon
These laws are all well and good, but in practice:

1\. Completely ignored everywhere because it cuts costs to have an intern

2\. Obeyed because it protects corporate profits

3\. Obeyed because it protects corporate profits

4\. Obeyed because that's the only way to extract work/profit from the intern

5\. Obeyed because that's the only way to extract work/profit from the intern

6\. Completely flagrantly and aggressively ignored 100% of the time, always,
everywhere

So I guess the laws are strict, but not ever enforced. The intern-ization of
corporate US is a pretty well documented situation which has been used to
slash costs at the entry level, thus creating a new "entry level" which
requires internship experience and pays effectively what a non-free intern
used to make.

------
zhte415
On negotiation in general, ff you have a partner or group to practice with, or
as a regular small team exercise, I highly recommend Harvard's materials from
their Program on Negotiation.

The material is inexpensive and can be previewed / downloaded, in full, for
free (the instructor pack).

Dedicate more time to the de-briefing than the exercise, as that is where the
learnings are.

[http://www.pon.harvard.edu/store/](http://www.pon.harvard.edu/store/)

~~~
sogen
Hi, can you share the link? Couldn't find it on the sitemap, and search
results don't show the Instructor Pack.

Thanks

~~~
zhte415
Click through to one of the topics/exercises that you find interesting. An
exercise can be added to your basket/cart (registration is necessary at this
point, but no fee is involved for registering).

------
baghali
"Begin with the end in mind"

\-- Stephen Covey (Habit 2, The 7 Habits of Highly Effective People)

Above rule has helped me a lot throughout my personal and professional life.

------
fluential
One of the best salary negotiation articles I've read:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3501366](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3501366)

~~~
gatehouse
I liked that post and also this video:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=km2Hd_xgo9Q](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=km2Hd_xgo9Q)

------
johnrob
This list seems to read like: "be honest, clear, and thorough". While this
makes you a straight shooter, I don't see how you'll get anything better than
what's fair using these tactics (and if fair is the end goal then I've been
over estimating the challenge of negotiation).

~~~
dahart
Not sure if I'm reading this right, but you have been thinking of negotiating
as ensuring you beat the other party and your outcome is unfair in your favor?
There is something not good enough about being a straight shooter who's
honest, clear, and thorough? Are you trolling or being serious?

~~~
johnrob
If you are evaluating negotiation as a stand alone skill I think you have to
judge by how far in your favor the result is. It's entirely possible that your
bigger picture strategy leads you to intentionally leave "meat on the bone",
but doing so doesn't mean you've become a great negotiator.

It looks like I misread the intention of the article: the title says "How to
create good outcomes when negotiating", but I somehow misinterpreted that to
read something like "How to be a better negotiator". It's probably the fault
of the first paragraph:

 _When I watch my nieces and nephew negotiating with my siblings, I 'm
consistently amazed at how good they are. ... they win more frequently than
they lose._

------
tbrownaw
The web filter here at work has that blocked as a gambling site.

------
calibraxis
Good points, but wish the author pointed to the enormous, readable lit. (Few
people I know have read things like "Getting to Yes.".)

People often are ideologically blind to fundamental antagonisms in various
relationships. (For example, market interactions is a big one.) I've had
entirely good deals with people who've tried to (if you'll excuse my language)
fuck me over, by silently changing little things in PDF contracts, benefiting
on the X% of people not paranoid enough to run diffs.

Some argue, "How can you make a good deal with someone who just tried screwing
you over?" Frankly, most deals are that way. Landlords try to; you buy
products from companies who routinely lie to you (and even try to make you
feel miserable about yourself); etc. And if you're a bit privileged, you may
be lucky enough to be able to hit back hard at some of these people.

~~~
nutjob2
I don't believe in dirty tricks like you describe, but it's my solemn belief
that you're not negotiating unless your goal is to "fuck the other person
over," or aim for an unreasonably good deal. Whether you get it or not is an
entirely different matter, but that should be the starting point. You'll never
get a great deal unless you try for it, or the guy you're negotiating with is
an idiot (for which there is there is also a simple strategy).

I don't know why you think landlords try to fuck people over. I've been on
both sides of that negotiation and it's almost entirely market driven. You
must live in NYC, or maybe moved to SF in the last couple of years, and have
encountered landlords who know they have you over a barrel.

~~~
josephlord
Many negotiations aren't zero sum (just about price). The skilled negotiator
is able to trade things that they are less concerned about for things that
they are more concerned about. Even in a landlord negotiation there might be
conditions around the original condition of the property or the timing of the
transaction that are ancillary to the linear price dimension and may give room
for both sides to win.

------
GFK_of_xmaspast
Sometimes the way to go is "don't" :
[http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2014/03/13/lost-
faculty-j...](http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2014/03/13/lost-faculty-job-
offer-raises-questions-about-negotiation-strategy)

~~~
andrewkreid
I'm guessing tenure-track positions in the Philosophy faculty are very much a
buyer's market. The candidate didn't seem to appreciate this.

