
Being a Developer After 40 - wallflower
https://medium.com/@akosma/being-a-developer-after-40-3c5dd112210c
======
toddkazakov
I am based in Bulgaria and I recently had my first experience with a potential
Swiss employer. It was rather unpleasant. After I went through 5 interviews we
discussed my rates (as a remote consultant). I received a low ball counter
offer which was about the half of what I usually charge. This quickly became a
racist rant and a senior manager at the company tried to persuade me by saying
that with the money they offered I'll "live like a king" in Bulgaria. Needless
to say I politely declined because I would much rather work with people that
value my work. I was really surprised that such unprofessional attitude came
from Swiss company, but apparently it's not so uncommon judging by the blog
post.

~~~
greenspot
Saying 'you will live like a king' is not the smartest thing. He should have
said:

'Please consider that your local living costs are much lower than in
Switzerland. We incorporate those differences in our offered rate like every
other company does. Thanks for your understanding.'

So the tone was—yes—unprofessional, the attitude not. And even if this
attitude is debatable, you have to allow the other party to express reasons
for a lower offer in a negotiation.

~~~
blub
I find it quite bizarre that remote workers living in a country with lower
cost of living are expected to take lower pay than locals while doing the same
work and offering the same value.

Otherwise yes, people are allowed to express silly things and one shouldn't
prevent them from doing so, especially when they show their true colors.

Looks to me like they dodged a bullet.

~~~
TheOtherHobbes
It's essentially about power differentials and narcissism, not money.

When you call out someone trying to lowball you and they start ranting,
they're really ranting about a narcissistic injury to their self-image.

Someone who does that will be a terrible client, because they're operating
from a position of contempt for the people they employ. They do not see you as
an equal, but as an inferior.

If the "inferior" challenges their default entitled one-up world view by
expecting to be treated like a competent and well-compensated professional,
they're absolutely going to have issues with that.

~~~
blub
An apt description of disturbingly many workplaces. This type of "superior"
person can hide themselves quite well and have a decent working relationship
with their "inferiors", but when challenged will show their cards.

The difference here was that OP had the power to say no, and wasn't trapped by
obligations.

I have the impression that some commenters resent them for having that level
of self-determination and make excuses for the behavior of the employer.

------
manishsharan
As a developer over 40, my biggest challenge is actually that the management
has come to expect weekend work and late nights as the norm. As someone with a
family , I can't put in those hours every day and every weekend. Single
programmers who can put in those kind of hours are rewarded and those who cant
are singled out for ridicule or "performance concern chats with manager".
Projects have gone agile and they have not accounted for the unexpected shit
that happens, low level functional designs seem to have fallen out of fashion
and the deliverable deadlines have become ultra aggressive.

And the mangers' attitude is that "they can shake any tree and it rains
qualified programmer resumes". Here in Toronto, there is a company called
Allegis and all major employers post their developer job here. The headhunters
are plugged into Allegis and they call you based on keyword match. Have you
ever seen poor people huddled outside HomeDepot, hoping to be picked up? Thats
what it like to be a developer searching for a job in my town. Most enterprise
dev jobs are focused on a very narrow set of skills; so it doesn't matter how
good you are with designing solutions or algorithms you know -- what matters
is do you know java/c#/angular(new) ? And thats all that matters for Allegis
keyword match. You are probably thinking I can learn more technologies ; what
I am pointing out is that enterprise s/w development process is based on the
fundamental principle of getting barely skilled people who can put in the
hours and keep their mouth shut. But these jobs pay a lot more than startup
jobs and have a lot more security.

~~~
pc86
This is probably an unpopular opinion here, but only a very small subset of
developers need to design algorithms or even know any of them by heart.

Disregarding a few years that was mostly WordPress consulting, my experience
is largely enterprise C#. Lots of line of business applications, glorified
CRUD apps, and some client work. Zero need for any ability to write a BST or
radix sort.

If you're working for SpaceX, or Twitter, or a Big 4, of course you should
know those things. But most developers _don 't_ work for one of those
companies. The vast majority of programming is done to further a business
other than programming.

~~~
GrumpyYoungMan
I'd agree with that. My impression is that the profession is bifurcating into
two categories:

1) Programmers, who have solid coding skills that primarily work on building
systems using existing modules and libraries. 2) Software engineers, who have
algorithmic and systems level expertise along with advanced coding skills, and
are capable of working on complex software such as operating systems,
compilers, and other libraries / components used by others.

Let me hasten to add that that isn't to say one is better than the other. Both
are needed, just like both regular doctors (in greater quantity) and
neurosurgeons are needed (in lesser quantity) are also needed and all are
highly skilled professionals.

~~~
jazzyk
>and all are highly skilled professionals

Apparently (and unfairly), our society thinks otherwise - family doctors make
$150K/year and neurosurgeons make $750K/year :-)

~~~
kjksf
I'm pretty sure there are more distinguished engineers and other senior
engineering roles paying $750/year in total comp at Google/Microsoft/Apple
etc. than there are neurosurgeons.

Not to mention tens of thousands of average developers that got lucky with
stock options and became millionaires where a doctor of same age is still
slaving away as a resident with 24-hour shifts and abysmal pay ($50-$60k year
for surgical residents, according to google).

The market (not society) is treating us developers pretty well.

~~~
jazzyk
>The market (not society) is treating us developers pretty >well.

I am on the East Coast (outside of NYC, though), have been in the software
business for 20+ years and know a lot of smart /accomplished people.

I don't know _a single software engineer_ who makes more than $200K/year in a
senior engineering role, as an employee. (We are comparing salaries, not
consulting income or stock options here, which can disappear very quickly).

It would be nice for you to step outside of the bubble you live in SV, every
now and then :-)

~~~
dgacmu
Please include stock _grants_ , because otherwise it's a silly comparison.
With that included, I know a _lot_ of people in SV, NYC, and even Pittsburgh
who meet that bar. Google, Facebook, Dropbox, Microsoft -- all of these places
pay over $200k total compensation for senior engineers. A grant of shares of
GOOG or MSFT every year isn't likely to completely disappear within the
vesting period...

~~~
jazzyk
Stock _grants_ for non-executive employees are rather rare (at least on the
East Coast).

And even then, once the bubble pops, if you don't sell (there is usually a
vesting period), they could be worth much, much less than today. Remember
2000-2001?

~~~
dgacmu
I'm confused about this "east coast" thing. Many of the major tech companies
that compensate in cash+RSUs operate on the east coast at some scale or
another. Heck, in Pittsburgh alone, you can pick from Uber, Google, Facebook
(Oculus), and Apple, of the "really big tech companies that give their
employees RSUs". You'll find similar options, no pun intended, in NYC and
Boston, at minimum.

As I said: The rolling vesting offered by most companies means that you're
selling stock every year after your first. So if you ignore the first year (or
pretend that it's poorly compensated), it's not that shockingly bad.

------
tluyben2
I'm 41 and a dev (and manager and bunch of other roles when needed, but most
my days are spent with software/hardware dev) and sure, it's all true what
this article says, but there is no real personal advice there besides, as
others said, just 'don't do everything, but do everything'.

So some unasked advice from a 40+ then which I wish I was told when I was 17
or something: a) believe in yourself; learn from others, but if you have
strong opinions or think something is wrong then voice it even though others
(are supposed to) have more experience b) fast typing and making long hours
are irrelevant c) get out there and mingle with non coders a _lot_.

All of these 3 points (I learned them at different stages, in order of
appearance above; c I only started doing 3 years ago) made me never having to
need a job as such, always worked where/when I wanted, always made enough
money and usually have enough spare time to do whatever while still
performing.

~~~
soft_dev_person
It may be obvious (i.e. general networking effects), but what dynamic let c)
give you work and freedom? Please elaborate.

As a coder who really dread interacting with people (especially non-technical
people) in the context of work, I'd like to know how this advice would change
my life.

~~~
ricksplat
I can't emphasise enough how important (c) is. Personally, I find programming
to be emotionally challenging in that you have to put emotion, and your own
thoughts aside when cutting your code. Add in to the mix the social dynamic of
the workplace and the emotional workload doubles.

I always had a feeling this was important. I remember reading about NEDs (New
Economy Depression syndrome) and identifying with that, but it wasn't until I
went and did a diploma in psychology that the rationality behind it all
crystalised.

Across all fields that study wellbeing it's fairly conclusive that social
support is one of the most powerful mediating factors. In summary the more
friends you have the happier and healthier you will be.

How does this relate to "non technical people"? As a friend once said to me
once, when I was going through a particularly kafkaesque work episode, "you
need to get outside of your head". You need to engage with people on a plane
other than the one you work upon every day - to give those parts of your brain
a rest and to help you to develop others.

People are hard though. In many ways more difficult than computers but the key
thing to remember is that unlike with computers there isn't a right or wrong
thing to do at all times. People have empathy, they can be sympathetic, they
can meet you half way and they can help you to figure out what you're
thinking.

Start off with something small, where you don't have to have too many
interactions, but where you can be around people. I don't know why but for
some reason communal drumming classes comes to mind. The key is to be around
people where they will get to know your face and you theirs.

~~~
soft_dev_person
I guess my current strategy for handling social dynamics (as an introvert) is
not doing me any favours. I usually get quite close (in a professional
context) to 1-3 co-workers and have most of my interaction at work with them.
All others I keep at a distance. Then again, social interactions with people I
don't know very well is really draining for me, and I can't spend that kind of
energy at work.

I've always done this, though. I have a few friends that are very close, that
I can count on for life, even if I don't "nurture" the relationships
continuously. But making new friends is really hard.

Thanks for the advice, though.

~~~
ricksplat
All I can say is, I used to be like that. Your approach to professional
relationships is healthy as far as I can make out ("1-3 co-workers ... All
others I keep at a distance"). The only thing I'd suggest you develop upon is
the relationships outside of work, keeping things lightweight (superficial,
even) if you find people draining. What's important is to just be there.
Socialising is like a muscle the more you use it the stronger, more enjoyable,
and easier it will be to use it.

~~~
tluyben2
Well put. It gets better when you do it more often, really! And it gets (in my
experience ofcourse) very enjoyable.

------
pasquinelli
"you were, are and will be a software developer, that is, a relatively
expensive factory worker, whose tasks your managers would be happy to offshore
no matter what they tell you."

this is exactly my experience. writing software really doesn't require any
great creative mind or cleverness. i'm a pretty mediocre programmer. i got
roped into programming as a kid by, first of all because i wanted to make
video games, but then once i'd dipped my toe in i found learning new, exotic
(seeming) ideas and making clever solutions to problems was a lot of fun in
and of itself. but i can think of only one time i got paid to do anything that
felt like that: working on a tetris game with bombliss, without the official
tetris rules. the rules of tetris are surprisingly deep and refined, in case
you didn't know, so that endeavor was utterly insane and disastrous, which was
the general character of the company i was working for. but still, it was a
lot of fun playing physicist from the tetris universe, trying to infer the
rules through experimentation.

to write software, once you have the skill down, is really just about doing
the work. it doesn't require any insight, unless you intend to write good
software, but no one cares about good software. no cares about the software at
all. they have things they want to do, and the software, the making of it, is,
if anything an impediment. so is the person making it.

~~~
themodelplumber
While it probably confirms a lot of fears around here, this comment is pretty
hyperbolic. That is to say, it captures the lowest lows (replaceable cog) and
some of the highest highs (experimental physicist in Tetris universe). But
most of us are not really suffering under those conditions, except
(critically!) in an imagined way.

> it doesn't require any insight, unless you intend to write good software,
> but no one cares about good software.

This last statement is demonstrably false. Many people care about good
software. Just like they care about good cars, good vacations, good hot dogs.

But still, grumpy developers will upvote this and believe in it. They then
become a self-fulfilling prophecy. They see threats that don't exist, then at
some point they call out those threats and in doing so cash in their chips.

I've seen many smart developers miss great opportunities in doing this. They
could be learning to make their own terms and push back, taking advantage of
high demand. Instead they become a plumber, landscaper, or Ph.D., thinking the
grass really is greener over there. Well, maybe so. But that mentality has not
changed, so what are the real chances?

~~~
pasquinelli
"This last statement is demonstrably false. Many people care about good
software. Just like they care about good cars, good vacations, good hot dogs."

 _i_ care about good software. i know plenty of people that do as well, so
you're right that my statement was demonstrably false, but the point is people
who pay don't care about quality software. that shouldn't be a controversial
thing. obviously they care about their costs and the value they get out of the
software, not the invisible quality of it. this is my experience, at least.
like i said, i'm a mediocre developer. maybe my customers aren't as
discerning, or they don't have very interesting problems to solve.

also, it's interesting that you characterize being a replaceable cog as the
lowest of lows. let's be honest, that's life. of course i'm replaceable no
matter what my position in a company. if i own a company, that company's
replaceable. it's not a lowly thing to be replaceable, it's the nature of
things. like they say, the cemetery's filled with indispensable men. that's
not to make every living human being feel lowly, but to help keep perspective.

------
nucleardonuts
I grow weary of hearing about "white privilege". I likewise grow weary of any
of today's politically correct messages: women in combat, bathroom bills, work
quotas, transvestite rights. It's all BS.

I grew up a military brat. We didn't have a lot of money. I wore hand-me-
downs, had iron-on patches on my knees. My family could not afford to send me
to college, so I served in the military to get the GI Bill and worked my own
way through college.

I'm over 40, in IT and no one ever gave me hand out in relation to any job or
education.

Like an earlier poster said, I'm under no obligation to do anything. I believe
in hard work. No one should be given a free ride because they are black,
homosexual, female, whatever. Work your ass off to get where you want to be.
Full stop. No one is under a moral or other obligation to get you in the door
or ensure fair play. I'm not an asshole to people, but everyone has the same
opportunities. I realize the military is not for everyone, but young men
especially can really benefit. You can do a four-year hitch and have your
college paid for. If you like it, you could re-up as an officer and the sky is
the limit.

The problem with people today is they have a sense of entitlement that is
misplaced. No one owes anyone anything other than moral decency: please, thank
you, that kind of thing. Work hard, play hard. Life is better without
handouts. You have a sense of fulfillment when you pull yourself up by your
bootstraps.

~~~
magni-
Your whole argument is a strawman. "I didn't grow up a millionaire" doesn't
mean that your life would have been the same had you been black, all else
equal.

Take a step back and don't be so defensive: "white privilege" isn't a personal
attack. It's only meant to raise awareness, awareness that you clearly need,
based on your post.

~~~
nucleardonuts
I don't need awareness. I'm keenly aware of what's happening here in America
and abroad. I got where I am because I worked hard. I've received no handouts.
I paid for my education through my military service. I earned my 3.98 GPA in
CompSci because I put forth the effort. I currently work with some blacks who
have done the same thing, and they were poorer than me growing up. It's about
attitude and what you want. Real men don't want handouts. They don't want a
check given to them for doing nothing.

Hell, now there are people talking about a basic income for doing nothing. I
agree with scripture, work or don't eat. Granted, society has people who
cannot work through no fault of their own. Take care of our less fortunate
brothers and sisters, by all means. If you are an able-bodied adult, get off
your ass and work for a living. Start of down low like everyone else and make
something of yourself. This is where the military shines. A poor guy can rise
to the top in the military. Get his college paid for. Make something of
himself. Nothing stops these people. There is no such thing as will power.
It's want power. How bad do you want to be better, different, not poor,
educated. How bad do you want to work to ensure your children live a better
life than you? My parents were not perfect, but damn if they didn't raise me
right. I work for what's mine and want no handouts from others.

~~~
NormlOverrated
>Hell, now there are people talking about a basic income for doing nothing

Yes, there are. And you know why? Because jobs are being more automated as we
speak. What will people do? Where will they be employed? Instead of being
happy for introducing driverless vehicles, automated machinery to maintain and
harvest our food, we grow scared for our jobs and turn into Luddites. We
should be thinking about improving humanity as a whole, not just going "me me
me me!".

And I feel you are a bit blinded from your American standpoint. You know who
paid for your GI bill and your ability to be in the military? The state - the
working people. You most likely didn't produce anything of value in the
military, nor did you likely protect anybody. Jose worked his ass off for the
tomatoes on your tables, while you most likely stood around with a gun, if
that.

>I agree with scripture, work or don't eat

There are many, many people on this planet, and in the US who DO work, but
still can't find enough food to eat. Think about that.

~~~
aoeuasdf1
Furthermore, basic income would likely get people out of unemployment benefits
and food stamps and into jobs because they no longer have a DISINCENTIVE to
work! I expect this effect would be about as large as the number of people who
quit their jobs to pursue their passions / hedonism.

------
eggy
I liked the post, and empathized with some truths in it. I saved up and bought
a used Commodore PET in 1977 at age 13. I taught myself assembler, c, basic,
and went on to buy a Vic-20, C-64, Amiga 1000, Amiga 500, Mac PowerPC, NCR
3125 (386 pen-based tablet in 1995 or 1996!), and then read up on AI in the
1980s - Neural Networks, GAs, GP, Expert systems, Fuzzy Systems, Chaos,
Complexity, etc... I was using Minix on my Amiga before Linux on my PowerPC,
and I have dual-booted since, but Windows is also in my repertoire. THEN, I
gave it all up and became a welder at an animatronics company that made window
displays, stayed in the entertainment field designing stage machinery, special
effects, and so on. My last job was at a water show diving and fixing
hydraulic and electrical systems as a senior manager and show manager (not in
the US, since a senior manager would not be caught dead in the water!). I have
now aged 51 years 11 months, getting heavily back into neural nets, livecoding
graphics and music while living in East Java, Indonesia. I was born and raised
in Brooklyn, NY as a contrast. All I can say, and what I bestow on my older
two children (I just fathered a baby girl a year ago), is that I left the fast
track to the huge salary to do what I wanted, and that always kept me happy,
and busy in a good way. I read books until I don't understand them, and then
go back and forth to others until I do, and I stayed physical, and avoided
'desk job' ailments of most people my age. I have grown to know it is time,
time with family and friends that money buys you. And if you have food, a roof
over your head and some toys, you don't need the other $25K to $100K per year,
or what have you. No, there is nothing new under the sun, but I have miles to
go before I sleep...

~~~
neotrinity
I have miles to go before I sleep.. I like the reference to Stopping by woods
on a snowy evening..

Great to see u made yourself a good life in east java.

My grandpa lived in Solo and my dad in Jakarta.

I tried so much to move there. But couldnt make it.

I am still stuck at the hamsters wheel in London. Hopefully i can get a fully
remote job and then move to Indonesia. I can only dream !

/dream

~~~
eggy
The Robert Frost reference I played because I always feel like I can keep
learning som much more, do so much more, as I think he tries to convey in his
article. And I played it off the English translation of his Latin quote, 'Nil
nove sul sole' ('Nothing new under the sun') to convey that too. You're never
stuck; it's in your head. I grew up poor in Brooklyn, and I have taken lower
paying jobs after higher paying ones for the experience and fun of it. You
learn to live within your means. You don't need a remote job to move to
Indonesia. I live on very little here. I spend more on luxuries like books and
credit for Internet. I am far from any big stores or town, so the temptation
to just spend is gone too. I am sure you can manage to save $10K USD in a
year. I am spending the time studying, exercising, sleeping (I have slept an
average of 6 hours or less per night for the past 30 years or so, and now I
try and get 8 to 9 hours, sometimes more!). The old cliche 'Life is short'
rings more loudly as you get older, and peers start dying around you. In our
youth we rally to 'Seize the day', but we don't own it. As Joseph Campbell
said and wrote, 'Follow your bliss'. The rest will take care of itself just
like the feet and hands wash themselves in the process of showering or
bathing. Semoga berhasil!

------
_yosefk
"That means that you she or he gets 100 KCHF per year, but she or he are
actually creating a value worth over a million francs. And of course, they get
the bonuses at the end of the fiscal year, because, you know, capitalism. Know
your worth. Read Karl Marx and Thomas Piketty. Enough said."

While neither Karl Marx nor Thomas Piketty have a great track record when it
comes to economic policy prescriptions (Dean Baker's opinion on this might be
interesting for people who share much of their world view with all three of
these economists), will they teach me to better negotiate based on my
"knowledge of my worth"? I rather doubt that they will, given that the
punchline of much of their writing is that worker compensation necessarily
trends towards the subsistence level over time, r>g, etc. etc. Certainly if
the point is to "know your worth" in the sense of being able to negotiate a
better compensation, a better source ought to be available.

Separately, it's an interesting turn of events that fairly politicized
economists' writings are now recommended reading for computer programmers. The
next logical step is a recommendation to join a political party (certainly
joing _the_ political party would help one's career in the USSR where Marx was
required reading for people entering the professions.)

~~~
lintiness
a nice piece on understanding self and the pursuit of a rewarding life in tech
or code or whatever (with real examples from said life) diverged in a wood of
political lecturing garbage.

------
buserror
I think that misses one big point here; and a point that I live by: Don't
waste your neurons and time.

Time is the most precious thing you have, so don't waste it learning stuff you
won't need. Even if it's shinny. Resist, and for the things you do need, don't
become an 'expert' \-- pick the things you NEED and scope it well. Then hop
along on the new tech that came around...

I always see any new thing I take on as an investment, and I try to make it
pay down the line...

I didn't use to do that, and I'm an expert in a few tech that I had fun
learning, but have absolutely zero relevance today. See, I can write Altivec
code without the scalar version for example. That was useful for about 2
years...

~~~
justinhj
This is where luck comes in. If you wait until something is super popular then
you lose the advantage of being one of the first people that understand the
technology when it goes into production. Also sometimes you may learn
something that never pays off but later it feeds into something that does. I
spent a lot of time learning Common Lisp and could never apply that knowledge
at work until functional programming became more mainstream and Scala/Clojure
became acceptable languages for production.

------
daxfohl
This had nothing to do with being a developer after 40.

tldr: Banal, overconfident advice on the subject of a software career,
devolving into political rants at times.

------
febed
_I have seen developers threatened to have their work visas not renewed if
they did not work faster_

That was an eye-opener. For some reason I thought Switzerland was a worker's
utopia with the relatively higher salaries.

~~~
ramblerman
I had the same initial reaction but if you think it through not having your
visa renewed effectively comes down to being fired, i.e. the company
terminating their dealings with you.

Doesn't make it better (at all), but it's essentially just the threat of
firing albeit with more weight behind it for the visa workers. Not the company
calling the visa office about you or holding on to your passport, etc...

~~~
Create
I have seen people threatened to have their work visas not renewed in Sweden.

~~~
bbv-if
Well, this risk is the price you have pay to work in a better country. And
anyway, most probably they would have some time (in my case, up to 45 days)
after the contract termination to find a new job, so it's not that tragic.

------
okreallywtf
Did I just stumble on slashdot? I much prefer the discourse on HN but the
reaction to "PC culture" and "White privilege" is basically the same
everywhere.

It has never been supposed to mean anything about an individual, and yet that
is ALWAYS how it seems to be taken. We (as white and or males) can't help but
see things from our individual perspective and take offense at the implication
we ever had anything easier than anyone else.

I agree with others in the thread, we just need to throw away the word white
privilege and come up with something else because it has been totally
poisoned. I'm not saying there aren't overzealous "social justice warriors"
that haven't contributed to the misunderstanding of the word.

Just remember, when people use the word white privilege, THEY ARE NOT
REFERRING TO YOU AS AN INDIVIDUAL FOR THE LOVE OF GOD.

~~~
Karunamon
_yet that is ALWAYS how it seems to be taken_

This is a clue that perhaps your terminology is loaded, inflammatory, and
should be changed.

I find that there's very little value in reasoning about race as a collective,
since it's usually just a (overly) reductive variable for socioeconomic
status, upbringing, or environment. If you mean those things, say those
things. Attaching a racial modifier to a term and then expecting members of
that race to not feel described or targeted by it makes no sense.

(And that goes double when that term _is_ used, _often_ , _as an attack_ , not
in the thoughtful way you describe, but that is a rant for another time.)

~~~
okreallywtf
You've actually hit on the exact point, there is no point in reasoning about
race, but as much as we wish that people didn't see race, the fact is they do.

That is the entire point of the term. Because of your race, people do reason
about your race, and do make assumptions about your socioeconomic status,
upbringing, and environment. I'll grant you that there are (probably a very
few) people who do get some satisfaction out of feeling like a victim but
otherwise, nobody is more tired of reasoning about race in america than black
americans (who are of course not the only discriminated against minority).

You seem to be implying that america is post racial and some of just won't let
it go.

~~~
Karunamon
_You seem to be implying that america is post racial and some of just won 't
let it go._

And you seem to have read your own biases into a very objective and clear
point. That point being, stop banging on about how terrible it is people get
defensive when you use offensive terms.

If your response to that is "but it's not", followed by yet another academic
definition of "privilege" is.. stop. You've missed the point.

Offense is taken, not given. If your goal is to have a frank and honest
discussion with someone rather than attack them, you _do not_ lead off by
using terminology that is racially charged (as if anyone can choose their
race), minimizes someone's struggles in life (of which you necessarily know
_nothing_ ), implies guilt (however slight), and which is frequently used in
bad faith to shut down discussions anyways.

That may not be what you personally intend, but that is what the audience
hears. Act accordingly.

------
alexandercrohde
\---Disobey authority. Say “fuck you, I won’t do what you tell me” and change
jobs.

Challenge authority, but don't be an ass about it. Simply try to help them
understand that you are doing them a favor by challenging them. Perhaps say,
"Do you mind if I weigh in on that?" If they aren't interested in your opinion
still follow up with "I understand you've thought about this, but I've also
given this a lot of thought and I also have a lot of experience around this
and I've seen it be a problem before."

------
barnacs
"forget the hype, make sure to learn node and start building bots"

That aside, a lot of the more generic points make sense.

------
vinceguidry
> "Ok, let's make a rails app" > "Oh, I need rails first" > "Oh, I need rbenv
> first" > "Oh I need brew" > "Oh I need xcode tools"

As a Rails dev, this made me chuckle, yes, I've put a lot of hours into
troubleshooting dev setups. But this is the wrong example. All of these are
installed with one line on the terminal. And really, there are far simpler web
stacks to pick up without even having to leave Ruby. Sinatra on system Ruby
works just fine. All you do is 'gem install sinatra', open up a text editor
and go.

Really, the complexity you have to watch out for is the complexity you impose
yourself. Choosing the wrong tools for the job or the wrong abstractions. For
many applications, Rails is overkill.

~~~
danielweber
That involves knowing the one line on the terminal, and when you google "rails
set up" you will get a bunch of out-of-date tutorials, and not knowing rails
you won't know which is out-of-date.

On the other hand, 30 year old C code will often compile right out of the box,
because the people maintaining them weren't chasing the New Flashy every year.

The modern systems suck in terms of maintainability.

------
groundCode
This was a good read - I'm a dev over 40 and much of this rang true. I think
there's a lot of great advice in there. One standout for me was "Be prepared
to change your mind at any time through learning. " \- something that I think
we should all aspire to.

------
shipintbrief
Mentioning income gap at the end were very random. I wish author would mention
it in the beginning, so I wouldn't waste time reading the whole thing.

------
jgrahamc
In an email exchange I had with C.A.R. Hoare a couple of years back he said:

 _Paradoxically, I have been working on shared variable concurrency, using a
partially ordered trace semantics. Until I retired, I was too frightened to
tackle anything so difficult._

Definitely life after 40, 50, 60, 70, ...

------
isxek
Slightly disappointed about the post _not_ being about how they became a
developer at age 40, which was what I initially thought it was.

 _I started my career as a software developer at precisely 10am, on Monday
October 6th, 1997... I had recently celebrated my 24th birthday._

~~~
eggy
I initially drew the same conclusion, but was nonetheless entertained by it.

------
ljw1001
I found the advice to be quite a mixed bag, but um, having just turned 42, the
OP knows very little about being a developer after 40. The article is about
what he learned as an under-40 developer.

------
ry_ry
Warm fuzzy nostalgia aside, this article seems to amount to "Learn everything,
read everything, do everything, don't bandwagon, Apple is pretty cool. The
other stuff is OK too, if you like that sort of thing. Learn Node. PS. Don't
harrass people".

It's an amalgamation of every Medium tech-post ever.

~~~
RyanZAG
I guess the real message is: believe whatever the mainstream audience believes
at the time. You can't really go wrong with always agreeing with whatever the
current thought bubble agrees with - and be quick to change your opinions if
the herd is moving. When the author saw the derision against Steve Ballmer,
and the favor Apple was getting, he made the clear choice to jump ship. And
because he was part of that popular herd jumping ship, it worked very well.
Follow the wind.

It's actually a pretty good point and is a decent way to always remain
relevant. You can't be left behind if you're always on top of the latest
thought trends.

EDIT: A missing piece the author points out too: don't be an early adopter of
a thought trend (Point 1: Forget the hype). Only jump in when it becomes
mainstream. If you adopt something before it becomes mainstream, there's a
chance it can fail. If you wait until it is mainstream, but get in just as it
becomes mainstream, you get the benefit of being an early adopter and the
benefit of never being on the unpopular viewpoint.

~~~
spacecowboy_lon
So your always going to be playing catch up - back in 94 when i had been
playing with the www I volunteered to go to Edinburgh for a month to work on a
cutting edge RAD/DSDM Project.

Basically I told my then boss see you after Christmas - If I have followed
that advice I would have stuck with Oracle and Java or spent my career in
Mainframes

~~~
wodenokoto
> I would have stuck with Oracle and Java or spent my career in Mainframes

And last I heard, there are tons of job openings asking for experts in Oracle
and Java.

So how exactly would that have been terrible in terms of getting a steady
income?

~~~
spacecowboy_lon
Well enough if you want a traditional 9-5 job (which is fine if it suits you)
- pity Java is such a PITA to work with though and Oracle do charge a lot! for
there product.

Trouble is if your company pivots and you have been doing Mainframe COBOL for
20 years - you might find transitioning to a new language hard.

~~~
nucleardonuts
I would happily go back to mainframes if given the opportunity. I miss the
days of the "priesthood of the computer". I sorely miss linear languages like
COBOL and PL. Yes, yes, I'm old fashioned, but man, were those the days. I
miss programming on my 8-bit Commodore 64, praying I wouldn't run out of space
on my floppy drive. Anyone remember Creative Computing magazine. I wrote every
program in every issue for quite some time.

Now? I'm stuck working for a salary in a job that pays the bills. I live in
Texas (I know, I know) where IT salaries are already low. Texas has that
"right to work" mentality. My bosses are not real IT guys in the sense that
they love IT. They're in it for the salary, whereas I'm in it because I still
love it after a span of pushing bits over three decades. I would retire only
if I won the lottery, but if I did that, I would likely buy a Z-Series
mainframe and spend my days playing.

~~~
redblacktree
I get some of that "praying I [won't] run out of space" with programming
microcontrollers for home projects.

------
s3nnyy
"Say 'I won’t do what you tell me' and change jobs. There are fantastic
workplaces out there; not a lot, but they exist. [...] Do not let a bad job
kill your enthusiasm. It is not worth it. Disobey and move on."

Especially Europeans have problems thinking like this. I always advise
engineers to keep on looking for better offers / jobs the moment they take a
new job. Instead many hibernate in a job for 3-5 years without thinking of
their careers and hence miss opportunities.

Disclaimer: To help engineers finding jobs / working on their careers and
support IT-firms to find people, I recently started a small headhunting
agency.

So mail me, if you look for a tech-job in Zurich. Salaries here after [!]
taxes start at 7000 CHF / month. Find my e-mail address in my hn-handle or
check out my story "8 reasons why I moved to Switzerland to work in IT"
[https://medium.com/@iwaninzurich/eight-reasons-why-i-
moved-t...](https://medium.com/@iwaninzurich/eight-reasons-why-i-moved-to-
switzerland-to-work-in-it-c7ac18af4f90)

~~~
sickbeard
Why is it a thing to change jobs every 3-5 years. Seems like only a software
developer thing

~~~
crpatino
Yes, it is a software development thing. Labour market is crazy.

Employers are obsessed with "acquiring talent". If you can show "growth
potential" (as in, being able and willing to learn and extend your expertise),
they will overpay you for the first 2 years or so. After that, they will feel
entitled to recover their investment in you, so you will continue to grow, but
your salary will stagnate.

Meaning, 3-5 years is the sweet spot for getting another income boost from the
next talent acquirer willing to pay you to learn even more.

------
salex89
If it is really possible to _learn_ one language each year, and read six
books, I'm going to be very impressed with that. Especially considering side
projects you actually start in some language, frameworks (which are not the
same as languages, obviously), and conceptual things which are language-
agnostic. And then comes family, home maintenance and, just sometimes, rest
:-) .

~~~
overcast
Reading six books a year is really nothing, and I'm not even sure why the
author makes a big deal about it. Especially those books he suggested, are
very short, often lots of pictures and examples. Agreed on the new language
though, your best course is to just start a fresh project with something new.
That's how I learn new things. Just jump in head first.

------
ricksplat
In 1997 I was finishing high school, and about to commence undergraduate
studies. I was "interested" in computing and Linux had passed 2.0 and was well
on its way to entering the main stream. I remember obtaining a copy of redhat
from my local library and a few very significant threads of my career to date
commenced.

Java is also a child of the nineties and 1.1 I believe was the first arguably
"finished" implementation. I remember the computer magazines were going off on
about it at the time and I got a free Java IDE off a cover disk and wrote my
first 2D canvas app.

These were the two main "galaxies" I inhabited for the last 20 years with
various holidays here and there. The benefit of inhabiting such relatively
"open" galaxies is that they provide easily accessible conduits to other
galaxies too.

Thanks for the 90s nostalgia - very nearly brought a tear to my eye.

------
magni-
It's sad that the majority of the discussion from this post is people
misunderstanding the term "white privilege" and getting so defensive about it.

Changing topics: that was a great read. The links were also great reads and
rereads. What do people think of Joel's six mistakes from the "great software
takes ten years", sixteen years later?
[http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/fog0000000017.html](http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/fog0000000017.html)

------
iLoch
> Companies want you to shut up about that, so that women are paid 70% of what
> men are paid.

Stopped reading here because I assumed the rest would be equally as well
informed. Shame too, I was enjoying the perspective.

Edit: Decided to give the author the benefit of the doubt and continued
reading for the opportunity to have my perspective changed. With that said,
I'm also not very fond of the anti-white male narrative quoted below, and I'll
elaborate on why

> If you are a white male remember all the privilege you have enjoyed since
> birth just because you were born that way. It is your responsibility to
> change the industry and its bias towards more inclusion.

I don't think the real problem here is with being white, male or privileged.
(Though, _obviously_ our industry has a problem with diversity.) Programmers,
for better or worse, typically aren't very sociable people, and thus become
abrasive to dissenting opinions. (I'll be the first to admit that I do this,
and will continue to do it as I try to improve and reduce this behaviour.)
Whether that opinion comes from a transexual black 10x-er or a straight white
female who recently graduated from college, or even a seasoned veteran with 25
years experience. Quite often, a difference of opinion for programmers
defaults to "they're wrong because they don't think like me." I experience
this daily, and I'm a straight white 21 year old male from an affluent
community. So to the authors point, yes if we could stop being assholes to
each other that would be great. However I absolutely disagree that the
behaviour of my peers is racially motivated, and I resent the implication.

And I'm supposed to "send the elevator down" just to those who I assume to be
the most slighted minority? How do you suppose that works? Should I just
assume that all women need my help and support because they're women? What
indicators would one even use to determine such a qualification, other than
being systematically sexist and racist? Here's a thought: help everyone, as
often as possible! Don't motivate your behaviour based on peoples' identities!

But yes, I do agree with the underlying sentiment that follows, I just wish it
wasn't prefaced with unnecessary garbage.

> Do not critisize or make fun of the technology choices of your peers; for
> other people will have their own reasons to choose them, and they must be
> respected. Be prepared to change your mind at any time through learning.

Perfect. Why did we need the intro?

------
sanpan
I just want to say thanks for introducing me to ponysay. My terminal was dull
until you all shared its magic with me.

------
edwardmarriner
Thanks for this! A super interesting and well written look into what a career
in software development can look like!

------
zelos
My new todo list: 1) Invent time machine 2) Go back in time and make my
24-year-old self read this article.

------
arc_of_descent
Nice post. A bit nostalgic but we all need a meme to get readers interested.
In the OP's case its "I'm getting older, but I still love what I'm doing. Come
join me!".

What I do when a new tech hype comes along, is allocate myself some time to
it. Ok, Webpack? Let me give myself three days (around 20 hours) to check it
out. If I don't understand it at first, keep pushing. If after 20 hours, I
still don't get it, abandon it and move on.

Of course, 20 hours is just an estimate. If after a day, I feel like some
magic has taken place (like what Backbone.js did to me), I'm hooked.

And yes, definitely gravitate towards a galaxy. Sometimes galaxies do merge
and you will reap the benefits :)

I'm 38, programming for 15 years. And I still love coding and doing systems
stuff.

------
a_c
> 3\. Learn About Software History

I was reading about zeromq. From zeromq, I linked to iMatrix, OpenAMQP, GSL,
and then Pieter Hintjens and Protocol of Dying. Indeed, history of software,
including the people behind it, is no less interesting than the software
itself.

------
fecklessyouth
>The reason for this lies in the fact that, as the Romans said in the past,
Nil nove sul sole

This is from the Old Testament.

[http://biblehub.com/ecclesiastes/1-9.htm](http://biblehub.com/ecclesiastes/1-9.htm)

------
philbarr
> A British roundabout with 6 intersections...

There's one of those in Hemel Hempstead. And surprisingly it works really
well...

On a related note, if you have the chance to go to Hemel Hempstead, don't.

~~~
walshemj
I think its only 5 now - and the fun thing about the magic roundabout is you
can go either way round.

I must admit I used to when riding a bike round there chicken out and use the
under pass.

------
programminggeek
It is not our duty to do anything. If you want to do something fine. But
honestly, I work my butt off to get what I've got and I'm perfectly happy to
help others that do the same.

I refuse to help someone just because they are female or a minority just
because they are female or a minority. I also refuse to help people who won't
help themselves.

Those who want to be great, I will help them every way I can. It doesn't
matter gender or ethnicity. It's about work ethic.

------
stevetrewick
Ignore the hype - but learn everything. Think for yourself - but go with the
crowd. And don't forget the sunscreen.

Oh, and XML was _totally_ a buzzword in '97.

~~~
gdubs
Came here to post "And don't forget the sunscreen", but did a quick command-f
to see if anyone else had already. :)

Which, in fact, was released in 1997!

------
frostymarvelous
>Software companies have become sweatshops where you are supposed to justify
your absurdly high salary with insane hours and unreasonable expectations.

Sadly, I've felt this way for the past two months since I took my new job. I
had to take a pay cut for it. Sadly, I think the new company thinks I'm being
overpaid and the demands are crazy. All of a sudden, I understand so many of
the WTFs on TDWTF!

------
ak39
I'd only add one more point to this otherwise excellent list of advice for
programmers doing it for the long haul:

13\. Strive to become as proficient as you can in the business domain in which
you ply your programming.

Such proficiency can be a crucial asset if you have plans to start your own
consultancy or to produce specialised products and solutions for niche
markets.

------
dhogan
>help a younger developer by becoming their mentor (do not do this before the
age of 30, though.)

Why the age of 30? Just curious.

~~~
AnimalMuppet
Because before then, you don't know enough to be an effective mentor. ("30"
here is a proxy for a level of experience.)

------
guessbest
I remember the AVR hype. It was supposed to "change everything" but is became
a big nothing burger.

------
iLemming
you know what? f... you people. I was hoping to know your opinions about
technological choices and things you think would be relevant 20 years from
now. And what do I get? 40 f...ing pages of gender and race inequality crap.
The article is not about that, damn it!

~~~
Kequc
Don't put things into articles people are going to talk about that you don't
want people to talk about. There are two topics in the article and the
discussion here broaches both.

------
jbb555
Most of this seems very negative.

------
known
Excellent tips; However in globalization you need to be a highly skilled wage
slave

------
batat
> Do not worry about hype. Keep doing your thing, keep learning what you were
> learning, and move on.

Thanks, Adrian. Now I have an official excuse for not writing a single app
with Angular/React in 2016.

------
known
Within in the context of H1B it's a different game altogether.

------
hartator
"Nil nove sul sole" means nothing new under the sun.

------
mooreds
I enjoyed this. Could have just as easily been called "Being an experienced
developer" because age doesn't factor in to his message that much.

------
emodendroket
> The reason for this lies in the fact that, as the Romans said in the past,
> Nil nove sul sole.

This is actually originally from Ecclesiastes, not the Romans.

------
abc_lisper
Absolutely love this guy!

Somehow I feel lonely when I say open-offices are an absolute evil. Thanks for
raising that point!

------
patwolf
>Learn all you can about LLVM

While I'm sure LLVM is an important technology, I don't feel it's everyone's
job to learn and know everything there is to know about it. There will perhaps
be a niche group of developers making cool things with LLVM, most developers
can get along just fine without knowing anything about it.

~~~
avoutthere
"Forget the Hype" followed by LLVM hype.

------
mindcrime
Being a 40+ developer myself, I find myself largely agreeing with this post. I
guess I could quibble over some small details, but by and large, I think the
author is spot on.

The one thing I'll add to this, is to say that, for devs like us, things like
Coursera, Udacity, EdX, etc. are _really_ valuable. When you're a mid-career
professional who already has strong technical chops in at least one area, "on
demand education" like this is super valuable in multiple regards:

1\. It's much more accessible since you don't have to go sit in class, on
campus, every day, etc. You can fit it around your existing life much more
easily.

2\. It can serve as a nice way to start "bridging" to a new area. For example,
if you're already, say, a skilled Java developer and you want to start moving
into Data Science, MOOCs offer a nice way to pick up some additional
credentials to help that transition. People argue about the value of
certificates from Coursera and the like, and that's fair. I think you don't
want something like that to be the _only_ credential you have, if possible.
But taken as a _complement_ to your existing credentials, experience and
skills, I believe these things can be very useful.

3\. Related to (2) above, but MOOCs can be a nice way to add complementary
education outside of tech altogether. If you're a developer who aspires to
eventually move into management or whatever, consider taking business classes
from Coursera/EdX/Udacity as well. There are some really nice offerings out
there, including a complete (accredited) MBA program that you can do (partly)
through Coursera in conjunction with the University of Illinois. Or maybe
you're a Java developer (just an example, I don't mean to pick on Java people,
as "I is one") who thinks that something to do with synthetic biology is going
to be "the next big thing", but doesn't want to go back to school for a
biology degree... great, there's a ton of life sciences / biology / chemistry
/etc. stuff that you can take online if you want to start positioning yourself
for something like that.

Let me also add this: I totally agree that you don't need to go "all in" on
every new tech that comes out, and try to ride the hype wave for everything
new. But, I think it's smart to at least explore (many|most|some|??) of the
trendy new stuff, to a limited depth... at least dip your toes in the water,
do the "Hello world of XXXX" where XXXX is Swift, or R, or Rust, or Scala, or
Node, or Go or whatever. At least give yourself a fair chance to evaluate the
new stuff, decide if you feel like it's worth investing more in based on
direct experience, and at least get a feel for the toolchain and what-not.
From there, you can kind of monitor what's going on around you and decide
if/when to go deeper with new technology XXXX. Yes, doing all this requires an
investment of some time, but that's part of the cost of keeping your value up.

Of course, the truth is, most of this goes equally for the "under 40" crowd as
well. But the whole "keep learning new stuff" thing probably becomes a little
more important as you get older. There might be exceptions like the whole
"COBOL programmer who gets paid big bucks because nobody new is learning COBOL
anymore" but I'd consider those situations to be exceptions.

~~~
dfox
For tech things I would say that just reading the documentation (or source if
there isn't any useful documentation) is preferable to any online courses.

On my first meaningfully paid job, first actually useful thing I did was that
I went into corporate archives and found documentation for Oracle 7i and
Microstation 95 which I was supposed to be using. Somehow nobody else there
even thought of reading the docs. (the fact that I somehow automated myself
away in this job is another thing)

~~~
mindcrime
_For tech things I would say that just reading the documentation (or source if
there isn 't any useful documentation) is preferable to any online courses._

I'm a big fan of the "teach yourself by reading the docs" thing and I've done
a lot of that in my career. But since I started doing a lot of these online
courses, I've found that they can be very beneficial. Having a little bit of
structure around the learning process, having "classmates" to discuss with,
etc. have helped me as I've been (for example) learning R. Now, _could_ I
learn R by just reading books, tutorials, and experimenting on my own? Sure,
of course. But the courses are pretty cheap, add a little bit of rigor to the
process, and come with a minor credential from a well known / highly regarded
university (Johns Hopkins, specifically). All in all, I've found that this
approach works really well.

Just to share an example of one regard in which the online classes have had
value above and beyond me simply doing it entirely on my own... The "R
ecosystem" has a LOT of stuff in it. If I just started playing around with R,
I'd have little clue which libraries and other tools to try out. But the
courses I've done so far have guided me towards learning things like ggplot,
dplyr, knitr, etc. Knitr in particular turns out to be really cool, and I'm
glad I discovered it... but I don't think it's something I would have gone
looking for on my own. Maybe I would still have found it eventually anyway,
but as it stands, I feel like the course approach guided me in some useful
directions early on.

YMMV, of course.

------
EdiX
> as the Romans said in the past, Nil nove sul sole

They didn't say that.

------
aerovistae
> You could experience that right here in Switzerland.

lol

------
x5n1
Seems a bit bitter about the shit working conditions. And he's right. It's
funny how the whole trade is shit.

~~~
tudorw
There certainly seems to be a lot of young 'genius' and '*10' types who are
willing to sacrifice their youth on the altar of a unicorn in return for a 1
in 100 chance of getting rich, if it's taking you more than 8 hours a day to
make a living, you're poor :(

~~~
x5n1
Even if the unicorns win it really depends on where you entered for you to
actually make out rich. These days even the employees of the winner are
getting shafted. There seems to be no ideas of human dignity or work life
balance in this trade. It's not a profession, it's a trade. It should probably
be unionized, and it would be if not for the high wage.

------
ManlyBread
The article was pretty good until this part.

>If you are a white male remember all the privilege you have enjoyed since
birth just because you were born that way. It is your responsibility to change
the industry and its bias towards more inclusion.

I'm from an Eastern Europe and my family never was rich, I had to put in a
tremendous effort to even get into the industry. Assuming I got an easy ride
simply because I'm white is a pretty racist statement and I find myself
surprised that no one is calling out the author on it.

>It is your duty to send the elevator down.

No, it's not. Just like women don't have any duty to ensure that there's an
arbitrary number of men working as models and just like black NBA players have
no obligation to ensure that there's enough white guys on the team I have no
obligation to worry about some arbitrary quotas.

~~~
JohnBooty

        I'm from an Eastern Europe and my family never was 
        rich, I had to put in a tremendous effort to even get
        into the industry. Assuming I got an easy ride simply
        because I'm white is a pretty racist statement 
    

I was about to patiently type out another "hey, you did work hard and you did
earn your success - 'white privilege' doesn't mean things were handed to you
easily; it means that even though your life has been hard you still got to
avoid certain challenges that non-whites face" response.

But you know what? This just isn't working.

We need better language.

I'm a firm believer in the existence of this thing we currently call "white
privilege." I understand the meaning and intent of this concept and it's 100%
correct; it's absolutely vital that we understand that _basic rights we take
for granted_ (for example, walking into a store and not being treated as a
potential thief, or having prospective interviewers assume we're
professional/literate/presentable) are actually privileges that many people or
color don't have.

But if the people we're trying to reach hear the term "white privilege" and
_immediately_ misunderstand the term in such spectacular ways... you know
what? We're doing it wrong.

~~~
mhurron
> basic rights we take for granted (for example, walking into a store and not
> being treated as a potential thief, or having prospective interviewers
> assume we're professional/literate/presentable) are actually privileges that
> many people or color don't have.

You are aware that Irish and Eastern Europeans, and on and off through history
Greek and Italian, have had all those same problems right? You know that
'White Privilege' you talk about is really just for those of Germanic origin,
right?

Because I'd hate for you to look like an idiot telling someone who could have
faced all those issues when they moved to Western Europe, the US or Canada
that it's all wine and roses for them.

White Privilege should just be called White Devil. It jsut paints such a
simplistic view of the world, not a real one, but one that is useful for
rhetoric.

~~~
JohnBooty
I'll keep this polite and assume you're intelligent and informed, a courtesy
you did not extend to me.

    
    
         You are aware that Irish and Eastern Europeans, and on and off through history Greek and Italian, have had all those same problems right?
    

I'm very, very aware of that fact. Hey, for the record, I'm partly Welsh. The
Welsh have been oppressed by everybody! They're pretty damn white.

Literally nobody is denying that Italians, Irish, Eastern Europeans, or people
from unfashionable parts of Brussels, or your mother's uncle's cousin from
Estonia, have faced discrimination at various points in time, and perhaps
still do today.

    
    
         White Privilege should just be called White Devil.
    

I won't try and change your opinion, but you should at least understand what
the concept of "white privilege" means.

It absolutely _does not_ imply that white people are bad, or that white people
are devils, or _anything_ of the sort.

The concept of white privilege is a way of viewing things that challenges us
to observe freedoms that we as white people have that others don't always
enjoy.

For example: as a white person, if a cop pulls me over, I may be treated
unfairly. But whatever happens, I generally know that I won't be treated badly
_because of my race._ He certainly didn't pull me over because I'm fucking
part Welsh, I can tell you that! Black people don't have that privilege. Now,
99% of the time, maybe their race doesn't have anything to do with their
interactions with the police. Most cops are good people. But wouldn't it suck
to be black and never really _know_ if a cop was going to treat you badly
simply because you're black? And that at least once or twice in your life, it
probably _will_ happen? That's some bullshit I don't really ever have to deal
with in my life. A _privilege_ I have, if you will.

Now, like I said above, I can't help but wonder if we do need some new
terminology here.

I am certain that I have not changed your mind. Again, I'm just defining the
concept for you. You can agree with it or disagree with it at this point.
That's cool. But your post made it very clear that you had no understanding of
the concept. Probably because the term "white privilege" itself was a turn-
off. You probably thought it was an attack on white people. It's not.

~~~
blub
The privilege you enjoy you do not enjoy because of being a white male, but
rather because you're part of one of the dominant social groups. If you go to
another country you'll see that people do treat you differently and might
discriminate against you depending on your sex/looks/ancestry/etc.

Those that are different always have some disadvantages. We should be working
towards fair societies, not replacing one type of discrimination with another.

~~~
JohnBooty
I don't understand how recognizing my privilege as a white male in America
equates to discrimination.

Can you explain in detail?

~~~
ElComradio
It's simply intractable to add up everyone's advantages and disadvantages;
it's the wrong path to focus on group attributes/trends when you start talking
about individuals.

I could clamor for tall rich sportsmen to "send the elevator down for me".
That it's their responsibility and so on. What you should do is reflect on
exactly why you'd think I should feel silly for saying that, and the other guy
to not. Would you tell Michael Jordan to check his privilege if he told a
group of average white male nerds to reflect on theirs?

~~~
JohnBooty

        It's simply intractable to add up everyone's advantages and disadvantages
    

Sure.

    
    
        it's the wrong path to focus on group attributes/trends when you start talking about individuals.
    

Absolute nonsense. If a particular school had a 30% graduation rate while
every other school in the state averaged 80%, would you say, "Wait a minute!
It's the wrong path to talk about _this school in particular._ These are
individual kids..."

As you say, every individual human being certainly is _more_ than the some of
their labels. But when gross inequalities between groups emerge, it's lunacy
to suggest there are no greater group-wide forces at work on scales greater
than the individual.

    
    
        Would you tell Michael Jordan to check his privilege if he told a group of average white male nerds to reflect on theirs?
    

Is Michael Jordan a group of people? Unless there's a clone army of Michael
Jordans out there that I don't know about, this theoretical question is
bizarre and irrelevant to anything anybody is talking about.

I'm not even sure what you're getting at here. He is a part of some privileged
groups (rich people, people with one-in-a-million athletic ability, men) and
not others.

    
    
        I could clamor for tall rich sportsmen to "send the
        elevator down for me". That it's their responsibility
        and so on.
    

Michael Jordan can't make you a rich, tall sportsman. That's not... physically
possible. However, the author of the original article suggested that we help
others achieve careers in our industry. Now that certainly does seem possible,
doesn't it? Hardly even seems controversial, if you ask me.

~~~
ElComradio
I'm not sure what you are getting at with your school example. 20% of students
from school B aren't graduating; 70% of students from school A aren't
graduating. If you institute some program that leads to one new kid
graduating, who cares if it's in school A or B?

Gross inequalities between groups _can_ exist, but that tells us _nothing_
about any particular individual within the group, only that individual's
chances _when no other information is available_. But other information _is_
available when looking at an individual.

You seem to be suggesting we somehow theoretically add up all one's advantages
and disadvantages- But that means... Considering the individual. Great, I
agree. Since we are doing that, phrases such as "recognize your male
privilege" mean nothing to an individual male, because it is very possible
that individual male has severe disadvantages that make singling out the
maleness aspect ridiculous- It would be like telling a minority male shot by a
cop to reflect on his privilege of not generally facing sexism like a woman
does (setting aside that a "male" privilege here is actually a disadvantage,
but you get the idea).

In general people have an obligation to help the less fortunate, I agree.

~~~
JohnBooty

        I'm not sure what you are getting at with your school example.
    

It's quite simple. Clearly there are times to consider the individual and
clearly there are times when we should consider larger groups.

If Town A had a cancer rate 5 times higher than the national average surely
you wouldn't say, "Well, look, those people are individuals, and an
individual's cancer risk is affected by lots of things -- diet, exercise,
genetic predisposition... to heck with looking for differences between Town A
and Town B."

 _Clearly_ you'd want to start investigating things that affect Town A on a
town-wide basis.

