
Bulgaria is the world’s fastest-shrinking country - clouddrover
https://www.bbc.com/worklife/article/20190913-how-to-slow-down-the-worlds-fastest-shrinking-country
======
cpursley
A side effect of a stagnant economy and population shrinkage is that Bulgarian
property is really cheap. You can purchase a modern flat starting around
$15,000 (or rent for really cheap) in a ski community with a very strong
remote worker presence (Bansko).

If you do this right, you can also become a resident and benefit from a flat
10% income tax which is lowest in the EU. No affiliation; I just find this
type of arbitrage fascinating (and am currently doing something similar on the
Black Sea coast of a different non-eu country).

\- [https://www.travelingwithkristin.com/digital-nomad-
blog/2019...](https://www.travelingwithkristin.com/digital-nomad-
blog/2019/1/23/my-150month-digital-nomad-apartment-in-bulgaria)

\- [https://medium.com/@matthiasezeitler/where-nomads-can-buy-
an...](https://medium.com/@matthiasezeitler/where-nomads-can-buy-an-apartment-
for-10k-to-have-a-base-in-europe-2859ae7a0bf9)

\- [https://medium.com/@coworkingbansko/how-any-non-eu-
citizen-b...](https://medium.com/@coworkingbansko/how-any-non-eu-citizen-
become-a-resident-in-bansko-bulgaria-3ff38a85d163)

\- [https://medium.com/@coworkingbansko/getting-bulgarian-tax-
re...](https://medium.com/@coworkingbansko/getting-bulgarian-tax-residency-
for-digital-nomads-6e6a71b51ff0)

~~~
alipang
I have a company in Bulgaria while working remotely for a high-salary EU
country, and it's almost shocking to realise how much you spend on taxes in
most European countries when you see the difference in your bank account.

It's quite a good deal if you want to be a digital nomad since it's an EU
country and you can get a really small apartment for almost nothing to use as
your official address while travelling. (You'll have to be at least fiscally
resident there)

Feel free to PM me if you want some tips on how to get things set up there.

~~~
helpPeople
How bad is it? I pay more than 50 percent of my income in various taxes in the
United States.

Before anyone asks, federal income, Medicare, Medicaid, social security, state
income, state sales tax, local property tax, and lesser- luxury and gas tax.

~~~
pergadad
If you pay taxes abroad the US will still haunt you to show that you paid -
and if it's lower than you would have paid back home claim the difference.

Many American expats in Europe that have acquired the right for local
nationality give up their nationality for that reason.

~~~
jsweojtj
I doubted that "many" expats give up their US citizenship so I tried to find
some numbers. Found some secondary sources like:
[https://www.forbes.com/sites/robertwood/2018/05/14/fewer-
ame...](https://www.forbes.com/sites/robertwood/2018/05/14/fewer-americans-
renounce-citizenship-but-taxes-still-drive-them/#2564308b119f)

which states that, worldwide, just over 5,000 Americans renounced citizenship
in 2017. There are also about 9 million Americans living abroad and ~1 million
living in Europe. So, no, I don't think that even if all 5,000 were in Europe
that 0.5% renounced their citizenship would count as "many".

~~~
johannes1234321
How many of these " ~1 million living in Europe" are with the US Armed Forces?
(Be it as service member, spuse, family)

Quick research: Kaiserslautern Military Community has ~50k people.
[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaiserslautern_Military_Comm...](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaiserslautern_Military_Community)

Now that's the largest, but by far not only location with US Military presence
in Europe.

~~~
jsweojtj
I'm curious, where are you heading with this counter argument? That perhaps,
something like 900k Americans living in Europe are in the US Armed Forces,
leaving 100k regular US citizens. So then, if all 5k of the US citizen
renouncers worldwide are in Europe, then 5% of the remaining 100k _does_ count
as "many"?

------
_hao
As a Bulgarian living and working in London for more than a year now, I have
no intention of going back. The IT sector in the country is booming and the
money you can make relative to the cost of living is insane - you can live
like a king. To me that is not enough. Money are not enough to make me go
back, even though I miss my friends and family. One of the biggest problems
for me is that the country is stuck in this perpetual battle between western
and Russian influence and that the government on all levels is mafia. There's
a lot more that can be said, but speaking for myself and some friends/family
that share my opinion that's not going to change soon.

EDIT: mrtksn's comment paints a very good picture.

~~~
eanthy
How does the politics and whatever people are saying affect your day to day
life though? If you can make 10k a month there and buy a flat for 15k, in a
few years you don't even need to work anymore. Why would you not even consider
living there? Maybe as the old saying: familiarity breeds contempt

~~~
buboard
It's easy to ignore politics and live as a tourist if you re an expat. Being a
native, with native family / friends always drags you back into local /
national politics - in general it's harder to disentangle yourself.

~~~
enether
As a Bulgarian who lives in the UK, I can 100% attest to this. I've found it
extremely hard to disengage from the culture I've been so used to for the
first 21 years of my life while being surrounded by it. Whenever I go back I
only see the negatives - it's as if the country is ruined for me.

------
kfk
Random facts from living 3 months there on why this could be a high potential
country:

* 10% income tax (second lowest in EU), 5% dividend tax

* Very low costs of living (rent is 300-400 eur for a flat in Sofia)

* Relatively easy to start companies

* It's quite safe, at least safer than Naples from where I am from

* Very good quality of food

* Close to the seaside (about 3 hours from Greek coast also)

* Nice summers and autumns

* A lot of mountains and land around Sofia, nice nature around

* !Important: probably lots of EU funds for startup. You can probably get funds for your startup w/o investors if you win a EU project

Personally the only issues I have seen are:

* Yeah, lots of people have left, many are in the process of leaving

* "Made in Bulgaria" is not considered a very good brand in EU like "Made in Italy" or "Made in Germany"

Edit. Added EU funds bullet.

~~~
StavrosK
I hope the new Greek government manages to compete with this, so the next post
will advertise Greece in this way. Most of your list applies here as well,
except we have amazing food and beaches.

~~~
gruturo
Seconding this.

I was recently for 2 weeks in Santorini, which is considered pretty expensive
compared to the rest of Greece, and everything was actually very affordable
(esp. if you learn to keep your distance from the more tourist-infested
areas).

The whole time during my stay I kept thinking how nice it would be to work
from there. Clear blue sky, beaches and fresh grilled fish. Wow.

~~~
jhoechtl
I have been to santorini this summer. It's an area which is not comparable to
the rest of greece. A raxi to dea sunset during the afternoon can easily be 30
eur and we are talking about a distance of 7 km.

Maybe off-season it's affordable. But combined with Mykonos it's an area where
the term highway robbery comes ro mind.

~~~
AtlasBarfed
Isn't the weather extremely bikeable? or are the roads super dangerous for
that?

~~~
gruturo
The roads are indeed super dangerous in my opinion (I rented a scooter once
and truly feared for my life when huge buses lost their patience and overtook
me during switchbacks, after that experience only cars!) and additionally you
really need to be in amazing shape to bike there - steep climbs everywhere,
under a hot sun.

------
probono322
Bulgarian here, studied and lived abroad, now back to Sofia.

The answer to the question "why this is the case" is...it makes sense a lot of
sense. Bulgaria joined EU in 2007 and right after that the crisis hit Europe
and the world. Wages at that time were probably 25% of the average in EU,
suddenly no restrictions to move (that's the point of Europe right?), people
wanted to try how it is because they've only heard and read how much better it
is, some people took loans before the crisis, etc. But it's the same reason
why people from East Germany move to West Germany, or from poorer states in US
to California..

That said, I believe it's a good place to work and live and I claim it's
reversing the trend slowly. I can bet there are more people coming for the
IT/engineering jobs than leaving nowadays, many foreigners living in the big
cities, you can afford to buy an appartment in 5 years, go to ski in Bansko
and to Greece/Croatia/Black Sea for the summer. Income tax is at 10%, food is
good, there is interesting companies, VC and acquisitions. Unemployment rate
is 4-5% and if you're halfway capable you can get a job in no time.

------
dimitar
I'm living in Sofia and I wouldn't live anywhere else.

I got a comfortable job in IT which makes me a outlier though. I pay around
20% of my income in taxes and national insurance funds, excluding VAT. I
actually believe I should be taxed more, even thought I'm far from the 1%. My
costs for housing, utilities and transportation are low. Entertainment is
cheap and the cafe's and clubs are always full.

I get to eat out or go out as much as I want without straining my budget and I
appreciate it because my friends in Western Europe live in lonely suburbs away
from any friends and from the expensive city centers. And comfortable as they
are they are still foreigners - something I tried for a few years, but didn't
enjoy too much. That said I know a lot of expats that love it here.

My friends in richer countries afford nicer cars and Apple products, but spend
very little time outside their homes, long commutes and workplaces. I have yet
to have one I envy even the slightest, but many people here believe that
emigrants are showered with money for nothing.

I travel a lot, both in richer countries and have been poorer parts like in
Africa and Latin America. Travelling has only made me appreciate my country
more. Seeing much people in poorer societies being much happier and grateful
is eye opening!

The healthcare is actually not that bad, if you have private insurance. People
complain about the ZOC because it covers very little costs, but is focused on
the most needy. I have close friends who had very expensive heart surgeries
and didn't pay a lev for it. It is shameful and suspicious to say good things
about any government institution so these friends keep quiet anout it. It is
true that many of the medical workers stay here because of their families and
out of charity for the country. Recently the nurses went on strike because
they are paid close to minimum wage.

My perspective might change if I get older, but so far I'm happy.

I don't think the statistics are misleading but I don't think they represent
the future. The trend is your friend until it ends..

~~~
alt_f4
> I actually believe I should be taxed more, even thought I'm far from the 1%.

This only makes sense if BG had an efficient govt that wouldn't steal your
money. The reverse is very much true, so this is a mistake. If it happens, you
should try to fight it, as that money will just go into the pockets of state-
connected oligarchs.

~~~
dimitar
BG has problems, but it is not a kleptocracy.

~~~
alt_f4
For example, all infrastructure contracts are rewarded to a select few
companies. These companies charge outrageous rates, building highways and
bridges etc. at some of the highest rates per km in the EU, all the while
these roads end up with significant technical problems just 2-3 years into
exploitation, due to poor work and, more importantly, the use of lower quality
than the spec materials (outright fraud), all the while paying workers 500EU /
month. Based on my research, I'd estimate around 60-70% of the construction
costs are theft.

Or do you want to talk about the fact that BG fuel prices are about the same
as all other eastern EU countries, all the while, BG has the lowest fuel tax
rates and the same (or lower) VAT, thus more money goes into Lukoil and gas
station monopolies than anywhere else.

You are very uninformed.

~~~
alt_f4
*rewarded = awarded

------
slavoingilizov
Another Bulgarian here, living in London and contributing to the problem.

This is a good article, but fails to show the breadth of the topic. I also
disagree with many of the comments here, which (expectedly) are on the
pessimistic side. This pattern of a big spike in migrants when a country joins
the EU isn't new. The Polish, the Czech, the Hungarians all experienced this.
It might be frightening to project a % of the population leaving yearly far
into the future, but it's almost certain that the trend will not continue.
There's a trend of economic equalization which starts after a country joins
the EU, and this makes it less and less attractive for people to leave over
time. So although I don't see net positive migration soon, the current numbers
will not be the same long.

Every time a country becomes better off, the most entrepreneurial and driven
people reap the benefits first. This is already showing in the big cities in
Bulgaria and some of the comments about salaries here agree. Of course it is
true that the not-so-skilled haven't benefited yet, but I think this is also
going to happen and the current environment will give birth to much innovation
and job creation, which will permeate society and give good reasons for even
the poor to stay. These processes take time and Bulgaria hasn't yet gone
through the full cycle, so we can't judge it yet.

It's true that there's plenty of corruption and bad practices, but if I
compare today to what was happening in '97, it's in a different league. We
went from rampant hyperinflation and drain of national reserves to small
racketeering. If the bar is zero corruption, that will never happen. The good
thing about the economic progress from recent years is that it's driven by
industries which the mafia can't control. It's no wonder that Software and IT
services are such a big employer and contributor, because it's not a business
with large tangible assets that can profitably fall into the hands of the
wrong people. This means that corruption and mafia have less and less impact
on the quality of life of the average citizen. The situation in key strategic
industries (e.g. energy) is obviously very different and won't be improving
quickly, but that's the case in many developed countries as well.

There are still many things which need to be improved when it comes to quality
of service and administration (at least on a public level), but these are
solvable problems. I have high hopes and I'm optimistic about what's coming,
with an eye open to return one day. And for those who haven't visited yet, I
would whole-heartedly recommend it.

~~~
jhoechtl
> There's a trend of economic equalization which starts after a country joins
> the EU, ...

This is true for both sides. As a resident of a wealth EU country working
conditions have become so dire with the constant flow of workforce from
countries like Bulgaria, Montenegro, Macedonia and others.

Good for the employer who benefits from reduced employee power, bad for those
who have ever been there.

------
mdw
I’ve been living in Bulgaria for the past 4 months, bootstrapping my startup.
I can say Bulgaria is a great place to come due to its affordable cost of
living, comparable to Thailand/Bali, but easy access to European cities, for
me it was the best choice. The community of digital workers in Bansko,
Bulgaria is really growing.

~~~
algo_trader
Can u mention the best/walkable/sociable neighbourhoods for a visiting
developer in Sophia and/or Bansko?

thanks

~~~
mdw
I highly recommend Co-working Bansko
([https://coworkingbansko.com/](https://coworkingbansko.com/)).

It's a mountain ski village in the south of Bulgaria, there is an abundance of
modern style flats which sit mostly vacant in the summer months, as well as
the charming old town, this makes accommodation very affordable (much cheaper
than the capital, Sophia).

Cost of a small studio flat is about 350 BGN per month, a lunch is about 5
BGN, a large dinner about 12 BGN.

There's about 100 members in Coworking Bansko and has two locations in Bansko,
one close to the Ski lift (convenient in the Winter if you like to
Snowboard/Ski) the other in the Old Town. A third site is underway in a
building where many coworkers own their own flats (flats are cheap to purchase
outright).

------
zarro
The problem of the countries in eastern Europe is primarily political
corruption, rooted from the old soviet system and slowing dying off.

But, this is being resolved by: People moving to other countries resulting in
a decrease in government tax revenue, giving less incentive to extort money
through corruption and forces efficiency on government services (out of
necessity), and in the end, it makes it a competitive market again.

People like my parents who left will never go back. But for people like me, if
the conditions in those countries improve and become attractive again (and
they seem to be improving), I have no problem with going back.

~~~
AtlasBarfed
Yes, great, the free market way: let everything go to shit and everyone
suffers needlessly.

Reform through other means? Blasphemy.

------
ivankolev
The current situation there is very sad indeed, and it hurts me double because
half my family still lives there, but all hope is not lost. We are a country
that has persevered countless setbacks throughout history, bearing the brunt
of the islamic invasion, the wrong choices in the two world wars and the
subsequent sovietization, and we still stand. The tide will turn, I have no
doubt.

~~~
obuda
We may have done those things, but not remotely. Let's see how this one goes.

Иване, "there" и "we" някак не се връзва.

~~~
ivankolev
There are many ways to participate, and with modern communications and
relative ease of travel, you could keep track and don't loose connections,
even if you are not phisically "there". Also, having the perspective from
living under different set of rules, allows you to compare and propose changes
back home. Many, many bulgarians abroad still care deeply about our beautiful
country and I personally know several who have returned to try and fight the
fight on home turf. And you certainly are aware that throughout history large
bulgarian diasporas all around the Balkans and beyond have been involved with
preserving culture, language and shared history and that begginning of the
20th Century it was standard practice to go study in Western Europe or Russia
and come back home with top notch education. You sure are also aware that
believing in good strong education is one of the tenets of our people, that
has endured uninterrupted for more than a half millennium, from the times of
the Paisius of Hilendar,through our unique, and unfortunately lost community
cultural centers[O] and up until today.

It is not going to be easy to revive that spirit, but "we" have no choice but
to try and be юнаци :)

[0] Random search gave me the following paper: [http://tru.uni-
sz.bg/tsj/TJS_Suppl.1_Vol.15_2017/76.pdf](http://tru.uni-
sz.bg/tsj/TJS_Suppl.1_Vol.15_2017/76.pdf)

------
ovi256
Its neighbour to the north, Romania, may be in a similar situation, for the
same reasons. It lost 6 million people since 1990, with several million each
living in Spain and Italy.

~~~
paganel
Am Romanian, I entered the comment section to say the same thing. More than
half my friends and work acquaintances from the last 10-15 years have moved
abroad.

~~~
simonh
My company has opened an office in Bucharest, mainly hiring tech workers.
Windows and Unix admins, DBAs, app support but I'm sure other areas as well.
I'll be hiring my first employees over there soon. From what I understand,
salaries over there in these areas are comparable to elsewhere in Europe as
various tech companies have opened offices there as well, but I'm just
beginning to learn more about the economy as a whole. Any insights welcome.

~~~
jhoechtl
Salary is one thing. How is work attitude combined with usabke education?

~~~
RealityVoid
I am from Romania. It varies greatly. Some devs are awesome, some less so. I'd
say the quality is on par with the German engineers I encountered in my field.
Experience shows though, so places that people have had chance to work in a
field for longer will be better so I expect expertise will be localized.

The education system pretty much sucks here, IMO, but most good devs got so by
being interested in their field. I would say fresh grads as worse than those
in other countries.

I find it interesting that the best people tend to cluster together. I live in
one of the bigger cities in RO and in my field it seems everyone knows
everyone and the most experienced ones tend to hang together.

------
xenator
In Ukraine very common service to get EU citizenship by "making" family roots
in Bulgaria. It costs about 3000+ euros to make a new passport. And waiting
time is about 1.5 years from what I know from people who actually bought such
service.

I wandering doest it counted here? Can be decline numbers much bigger if count
all people from Russia and Ukraine who made their new passports this way.

~~~
dimitar
This is because Bulgaria still accepts Soviet passports with "Bulgarian" in
5th point as proof of Bulgarian origin, its complicated by the fact that there
are still plenty of ethnic Bulgarians in Ukraine. Some of them, unfortunatelly
have parents and grandparents listed as "Russian" in the old documents.

I'm surpised it costs so much thought, I guess demand is high.

------
chewyland
Moved from Vancouver, Canada to Bulgaria 6 years ago. Best decision I've ever
made. Sooooo much fun here and living in a free country is really relaxing.

~~~
slazaro
What do you mean by "free country" as opposed to Canada?

~~~
mrtksn
I was going to ask the same but I have a guess: In Bulgaria, you don't feel
the government, it doesn't feel like there are laws or anybody cares about
laws. It's nice in its own way but also the root of all problems when there
are bad actors around. I lived in Turkey, Germany, Bulgaria and the UK for
prolonged periods and I can say that I feel most free in Bulgaria. The
relationship with the government is transactional and you don't have to deal
with the governmnet if you don't want something from the government(or upset
somebody and get sued).

------
Lucadg
I don't have stats to back me up but many are arriving too from Western
countries in search for a lower tax, lower salaries (except tech) great
quality workforce, friendly business environment and so on. Cheap flight
completely changed the perception of how far Bulgaria is from the rest of
Europe.

------
bluetomcat
The great thing about Bulgaria is that the government doesn’t intervene in
much of the life of the average working-class citizen. Institutions are weak
and ineffective, and as long as you don’t claim any benefits from the state,
they will not bother you for much. Personal income tax is not as strictly
collected as it is in the West, few people are serious about it, the
government is aware and they just don’t put the effort to fix it. Many self-
employed service workers like plumbers and home repair guys are officially
unemployed and do not declare a penny of income. The bureaucratic burden for
companies however can be off-putting and that keeps many individuals in the
gray sector.

------
supermatt
2nd fastest shrinking.

The article itself says it ties with Lithuania, but the UN source itself says
it is behind Lithuania:

[https://population.un.org/wpp/](https://population.un.org/wpp/)

------
arafa
I had a professor years ago that emigrated from Bulgaria. He said he could've
lived like a king there with relatives in the corrupt train sector/mafia, but
came to the US to teach as an adjunct instead. That about sums it up.

Corruption is mentioned in the comments here but I'm disappointed it wasn't
mentioned in the article.

~~~
dragandj
That's the main reason why people leave, and the main reason why some
country/ies are not desirable. Here in the neighboring Serbia corruption is
insane, and yet, Bulgaria is a synonym for a corrupted country here.

------
axegon_
Bulgarian here, there are a lot of aspects the article does not cover.

First one is that up until 1989, Bulgaria was largely an agriculture state
with the soviet union being the only market. A heavily controlled market at
that. Some might argue that Bulgaria used to produce computers but it was
mostly a small assembly line using Intel chips, so no, not really. Mind you
the math education was on a good level, hence the reason why so many people
can easily jump into cs. But families like most rural countries tended to be
large. I happen to have a family tree dating back to the late 17-th century
and most of the people back then had 8+ children. Needless to say, that isn't
the case anymore. Looking at people around me, I can only think of one or two
examples that have more than 1 child. Combine that with the other factors in
the articles and you start seeing the bigger picture.

Now, on immigration: I was a child in the early 90's when the first real
information from the west started coming in. And as people tend to do, we only
saw what we wanted to see. I grew up daydreaming about the day I'd move west
where everything is bread and butter. And I did as early as I could: I was ~16
at the time. I was pretty disappointed in a lot of aspects: life abroad was
not as advertised. It turned out to be complicated and rough. Yes, roads were
better, streats were cleaner and people had a tendency to try to maintain the
environment around them. Something which has started to happen here noticably.
But there I was faced with entirely new problems which I would have never
imagined could exist in the real world.

As I went through university, some other rough moments hit me hard and at the
end I was so fed up, I wanted to move away from there. As I was talking to old
friends, I figured that as a software engineer with a university degree,
moving back to Bulgaria might be a possible option. Back then getting a work
permit was still difficult as a new EU member state so I decided to skip the
hassle and move back and give it a shot. Bottom line is it turned out to be a
a great solution.

Like most market economies these days, young people and by extension working
people gravitate towards the big cities. And naturally the smaller cities are
dying out.

Because life is incredibly cheap compared to most of Europe, your odds of
making a decent life are much greater - the bar can be set much lower. To give
you an idea - my monthly paycheck at my first job was just over 700
euros(underpaid even for a developer with little to no experience). I had
rent, bills, transportation and food to take care of and even with that, I was
still able to save up around 250/month. Something unthinkable for most
European capitals on such a tight budget. Now, many years later, things look
really well for me.

Ocassionally you do hear someone on the streets saying something along the
lines of "See this _points at something_ , this would never happen in any
other country". Since what I've said here has been a subject of discussion
with many friends, we usually look at each other, roll our eyes and walk away.
Which brings me to the final point:

The article doesn't cover the large amount of people returning home after
spending years abroad either. And looking at many of my friends, the number is
pretty high: a good 60-70% at a glance. Far not only software engineers(who on
average make a few times the national average).

What I'm trying to say is that a lot of people still live with the illusion
that in countries such as France, Germany, Italy and so on, everyone has a
1000 square meter mansion with 2 hellicopters and a collection of one-off
hypercars. Which is not to say that my life abroad was a bad experience - on
the contrary. If anything, it made me a lot more resiliant and capable of
handling difficult situations. As a matter of fact I'd encourage young people
to pack a bag and move abroad for a year while you are still 19(referring to
the intro of the first book of the Dark Tower series titled "What it's like to
be 19").

~~~
Iwan-Zotow
> First one is that up until 1989, Bulgaria was largely an agriculture state

where did you get this nonsense?

FYI, you've got 6 (SIX!) nuclear reactors build during those times

0 since 1990

~~~
slavoingilizov
What proportion of the GDP before 1990 was from power production then? Your
argument is anecdotal. Those reactors were vanity projects, not big
contributors to economy.

~~~
Iwan-Zotow
> Those reactors were vanity projects, not big contributors to economy.

Your argument is anecdotal.

------
pi-squared
Sort-of-a-unique thing in Bulgaria (compared to rest of EU) is not only close
ties with Russia in economics but actual nostalgia of the "old-times". While
Polish or Hungarian people would never want to return to comunistic times, we
sometimes do. I'm not sure I can exactly pin it down why, maybe it's the close
language, culture and shared alphabet or it could be that we are particularly
nostalgic nation. In any case it creates a constant feeling of being the
"Trojan horse" of Russia, being used by their economical and political
interests with a nation that swigns back and forth electing the old-comunist
party (that not changed at all other than their name s/comunist/socialist/)
and the "Right/central-right" pro-EU (on paper at least).

For many in my generation (90s), the dream of leaving the country has been
propagandized by parents who were never able to leave themselves due to the
Iron Curtain. Many would attest getting the Serbian radio close to the border
in a desperate attempt to hear something "western". As much as the nation
longs for the old-times, it longs for the West. And the split is maybe about
50/50\. However few would leave for the East and many, many would flood the
gates once we entered EU 12 years ago.

12 years ago is when late 80s and 90s children were graduating. We didn't have
much idea exactly what is bad with the country, as no teenager knows too much.
But we all saw the opportunity and we've all heard the stories of the
successful uncle who managed to "fix their life" abroad. So we flocked. Cheap
flights accelerated the process, free education in some countries like
Scotland and the Netherlands. So the "brain-drain" was accelerated. If people
could leave before with hard-obtained visas or illegaly, now it was easy and
free for all.

Yet, 12 years later we are still the poorest country in EU with the poorest
overall north-western region which was once one of the most prosperous regions
back when aggriculture was the main sector. Turism and services instead is now
the main sector and sure, there are some companies that are succesful, the low
salaries compared to what you can make abroad is worth a bit of home-sickness
endurance. It's hard to get out of it with the open borders - it's a feedback
loop as more "brain drain" happens, less innovation and money can come towards
the country and corruption proliferates.

------
dsego
Just got reminded of a funny sketch by Foil Arms and Hog I've seen a few days
ago. It's about the Irish "emigration police" that tries to stop people from
leaving the country.

Emigration Police (The Brain Drain) - Foil Arms and Hog
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YZcAH4vyCZE](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YZcAH4vyCZE)

Funnily enough, a lot of Croats are actually emigrating to Ireland.

~~~
BerislavLopac
It's interesting how FA&H seem to be quite popular in Croatia... ;)

------
the_mitsuhiko
Since a lot of the emigration is to other EU countries it can be comparatively
easily reversed. It’s harder for Serbia, Bosnia etc.

~~~
mihaifm
It's pretty much irreversible. Most of the emigration comes from Eastern
European countries which hardly get any imigrants of their own. Very few
people who leave choose to return. Within a generation (two at most) they
fully integrate into the foreign culture, so that population is lost.

~~~
barry-cotter
Poland gets to plenty of immigrants. I doubt it’s the only former Warsaw Bloc
nation that’s true of.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainians_in_Poland](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainians_in_Poland)

In January 2016 the Embassy of Ukraine in Warsaw informed that the number of
Ukrainian residents in Poland was half a million, and probably around one
million in total. Ukrainian Ambassador to Poland, Andrii Deshchytsia, noted
that Ukrainian professionals enjoy good reputation in Poland and in spite of
their growing numbers Polish-Ukrainian relations remain very good.[13]

According to the NBP, 1.2 million Ukrainian citizens worked legally in Poland
in 2016.[14] 1.7 million short-term work registrations were issued to them in
2017 (an eightfold increase compared to 2013).[4] Ukrainian workers stay in
Poland on average 3-4 months.[15]

The number of permanent residence permits increased from 5,375 in 2010 to
33,624 (14 September 2018), while the number of temporary residence permits
increased from 7,415 to 132,099 over the same time period.[3]

About 102,000 Ukrainian citizens received Karta Polaka,[16] of whom some
15,500 obtained permanent residence permits in the period from 2014 to March
2018.[17]

~~~
AtlasBarfed
Is Ukraine that bad? Is it the looming Russian threat, the ethnic divide, a
really bad economy, or an even worse corruption problem?

~~~
agapon
It's that you can get much better pay in Poland. Especially for lower skill
jobs, higher skill jobs are not that different. It's easy to get legal
employment and residence. The countries are close culturally and
linguistically. And, of course, Poland is better developed -- materially and
societally -- so the quality of life is better too. I think that at this point
Ukraine can provide as many workers / migrants as Poland can absorb. And
Poland can absorb a lot -- after its own big wave of emigration farther to the
West.

------
pdimitar
A 39-year old Bulgarian working remotely (in the capital Sofia) for a generous
company rewarding talent with good atmosphere and money.

I admire the more optimistic Bulgarians here but the article and most of them
in this thread fail to mention the elephant in the room:

Corruption.

My mother regularly shops fruits and vegetables from the local market. Booths
and stalls get closed _all the time_ and there are scarcely any such sellers
anymore -- and that's juuuust outside the so-called "wide center" area;
there's plenty of shoppers around and the demand is always extremely high.

Reason? People from all sort of municipalities come around and demand all
sorts of fines for alleged violations and they never explain which exactly; if
you fail to pay, cops who _just happen_ to be friends with those people will
come along and will forcefully evict you as a seller from that market. When
some of these people got to the police station to complain and demand actual
reasons for their eviction, they literally got laughed out of the station with
the threat of physical violence if they return. When they went to a local
municipality, they were made to wait several months and by that time of course
the fruits/veggies season was long over and those people lost a lot of money.
And most could not recover to restart their business.

TL;DR: small racketeering, multiplied by hundreds. A lot of small businesses
outside of IT die from a hundred racketeer paper cuts.

Things are still very much communist/socialist reality known from the Soviet
times around here. "Knowing people" is still one of the biggest assets.

As a guy living in Bulgaria since birth I can see the tides turning VERY
SLOWLY, but I fear that unless some real pressure can be applied to the
politicians and various other gatekeepers, then nothing will really improve
like ever.

To clarify: I don't disagree with the most of the optimistic takes in this
thread; things really are improving and Bulgaria is an amazing destination in
many regards. But do take everything with a bag of salt; there are unseen
forces lurking underneath that don't give a crap about your well-being and
will actively work to ruin it if they notice you.

Hopefully this adds some nuance and balance to a lot of comments suffering
from a bit too wide-eyed optimism for my taste.

------
theaeolist
Yet they will not allow any significant incoming immigration from outside the
EU.

------
NTDF9
Something interesting to note is that these emigrants are all young people.

Which means, these motherlands are left with only old people. It's a gigantic
demographic disaster.

------
Teracotage
So many Romanians are registering their cars in Bulgaria, as it is cheaper
with low cost in insurance too.

------
Waterluvian
This got me thinking about the post-colonialism modern era of steady state
nations (and some would hope for: borders).

Is it possible that a valid terminal state is a country being merged into
another? I wonder if we're just assuming that shrinking country == bad by
default.

------
mrtksn
Okay, let me draw a picture for you as someone who contributed to Bulgaria's
shrinkage.

It all starts in 1989, communist Bulgaria decides that it no longer wants its
Turkish minority and a large number of people are deported or "let go" to
Turkey. BBC has a short documntary on it[0]. Houses and lands are abandoned
and only those who are too weak to immigrate remain. Congratulations, now you
have ghost-city like places with old people and farmlands and there's nobody
to take care of.

A year later the People's Republic of Bulgaria collapses and gives birth to
the Republic of Bulgaria. Half of the Turks return to their birthplace but now
people have strong connections to Turkey now, which would lead to constant
immigration through the years when the Bulgarian economy is in trouble.

From the '90s to the 2000s the country goes through a transformation where the
old infrastructure doesn't make economic sense anymore and the corruption is
so rampant that they say that in other countries there's mafia too but in
Bulgaria, the mafia has a country. In these years being a doctor, an Engineer
or any other white-collar professional means that you have two choices:
immigrate to a place where you can work with dignity or starve in Bulgaria
because it looks like this capitalism thingy is only good for the corrupt
people.

People who have the means to go abroad just go, the rest witness the collapse
of the country and year after year re-assurance how little value their
education and career has as these thugs drive Mercedes but they cannot meet
the ends. Sell everything, corrupt everything to survive as apparently it has
a little value.

In the 2000s, things begin to improve as the newer generations begin to get
how capitalism work. Still, everything is bad but some things are getting
better. Especially the cities are doing fine.

In 2007 Bulgaria joins the EU. It means that the cost of going abroad to work
falls dramatically. Many people already had some friend or relative, they
follow their steps. The wage differences between Bulgaria and let's say
Germany or the UK are enormous, opportunities infinite. If you are a skilled
person and speak a language you find a nice job and immigrate. If you are not
very skilled you find a hard job that pays vastly better than anything in
Bulgaria and you regularly travel to EU countries to do that job.

If you are a student, you can go to study in any EU country. If you prefer to
stay, the school will arrange the school dates to accommodate summer jobs in
the EU so that you can work in the EU for a few months and make very decent
money.

Now Bulgaria is much better than it was before but some places still look like
Half-Life 2, especially in places that are dominated by seniors.

Everyone has a friend or family abroad and if there's an opportunity they have
the means to leave.

I guess at some point this will stabilize and remaining in Bulgaria will be a
better option than moving to Sweden or Germany because if you manage to look
beyond the ruins of the communist era, Bulgaria is a very beautiful country
with a really nice climate and lots of things to offer. It's not a dead place
and I don't think that the projections of ever shrinking population will hold.

[0]: BBC Documentrary on the Turks emmigrating from Bulgaria:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Y1b-asR3yI](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Y1b-asR3yI)

~~~
tdsamardzhiev
> but some places still look like Half-Life 2

Fun fact: Half-Life 2's art director is Bulgarian.

~~~
ermir
Also a fun fact: City 17 was based on Sofia.

------
ga-vu
Add Moldova to that list

------
rezeroed
EU-wide urbanisation.

------
lmilcin
Country=territory People=nation

------
haidut
Nothing but LIES and PROPAGANDA! BBC is unfortunately on par with the National
Enquirer (NE) when it comes to bias and reliability. And I have repeatedly
observed that the NE is actually really good in reporting true upcoming issues
at least in the celebrity world.

First and foremost, as the BBC "article" states, Latvia and Lithuania are
potentially worse than Bulgaria. Not that being second to last in terms of
population growth is anything to brag about but this is yet another example of
BBC "journalism" that serves primarily a propaganda purpose. Why single out
Bulgaria when it seems the same problem plagues many former Eastern Block
countries?? Furthermore, if you look at the stats on Wikipedia, the last
reliable data available for Bulgaria was from 2015. Based on that data there
were 10+ other countries worse than Bulgaria in terms of population decline.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_populatio...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_population_growth_rate)

If you look at the actual UN report the BBC cough _..shitpost...cough_
references you will see that, again, it does NOT single out Bulgaria as the
"winner" in this category but mentions it along other countries with largely
the same problems. Many of those countries such as Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia,
etc have been praised relentlessly by UK media as a model of embracing
capitalism after socialism's collapse. Yet they seem to also be in pretty dire
states, not unlike Bulgaria. Actually, one of the countries mentioned in the
report on par with Bulgaria is Andorra - a rich tax haven, hardly on anybody's
list as a country to bitch about in any capacity, including population.

[https://population.un.org/wpp/Publications/Files/WPP2019_Hig...](https://population.un.org/wpp/Publications/Files/WPP2019_Highlights.pdf)

"...The largest relative reductions in population size over that period, with
losses of around 20 per cent or more, are expected in Bulgaria, Latvia,
Lithuania, Ukraine, and the Wallis and Futuna Islands."

"...As a proportion of the total population, the largest projected declines
are for Lithuania and Bulgaria, where the projected population in 2050 will be
23 per cent smaller than in 2019, followed by Latvia (22 per cent), the Wallis
and Futuna Islands (20 per cent), and Ukraine (20 per cent)."

"...Another eight countries or areas also experienced population decrease of
more than five per cent since 2010: Andorra, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Bulgaria,
Latvia, Lithuania, Romania, Saint Pierre and Miquelon, and Wallis and Futuna
Islands."

And last but not least, the BBC shitpost itself states that Bulgaria does not
keep stats on emigration, which (again as the article states) is the biggest
factor in these "terrifying stats" on population shrinkage.

"...Low birth rates are the biggest factor for such steep decline. But what
sets Bulgaria apart from other declining European countries is its massive
outbound migration. The government does not keep reliable statistics but some
economists, including Cvetan Davidkov, estimate that at least 60,000
Bulgarians leave each year.

So...the famous BBC decided to do a "sky is falling" article based on the
unofficial estimates of one economist!? How convenient!

Anyways, unfortunately I will have to call malice on this one instead of
stupidity, even though BBC has lately been the source of some really stupid
crap. If you do a quick search on the negative press concerning Bulgaria you
will find out that the vast majority of it comes from the UK. In fact, I
challenge Bulgarians reading this and living in the UK to find me a single
positive article on Bulgaria published in the British press in the last 15
years. Nothing but shitposting about Bulgaria while at the same time heaping
praise on the "Baltic wonders" such as Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia and even
Ukraine. Well, as both Wikipedia and the UN report make it quite clear, those
"wonderful" countries have very little to brag about when it comes to either
economy or population. If life is so great in the Baltics, why is everybody
there leaving too, on par with Bulgarian emigration rates??

I will also have to disagree strongly with other people saying mrtksn's
comments are spot on. The reality is much simpler. Bulgaria, together with the
rest of the Eastern Block, was unlucky enough to move towards a capitalist
economy and Western "values" at a time when these ideas were already in
decline in the West itself. So, by the time the country had changed
sufficiently to embrace a capitalist economy and lifestyle...there was nothing
left to embrace. The Western world is crumbling too, but of course, it will
oppress and abuse small countries like Bulgaria long before it admits its own
shortcomings. Basically, Bulgaria spent the 90s battling mafia and corruption
and that was the true "transition" period, akin to the American "Frontier"
times. When the (illegal) redistribution of wealth was more or less complete,
and the country was deemed sufficiently "civilized" to join institutions such
as the EU, Bulgaria realized that the West had nothing to offer except
predatory practices that destroy the standard of living in Bulgaria. Those
"rich" Western countries are themselves collapsing, and UK is one of the worst
in that respect. You need to look no further than the Brexit fiasco to see how
desperate things in the UK are. The sad reality is that the last 19 years
(since year 2000) have been lost time for the West and as such the situation
in "newcomer" capitalist countries like Bulgaria would be proportionally
worse. As a result, even the characteristics of the Bulgarian emigration have
changed dramatically. In the 1990s, people leaving Bulgaria (like myself) were
mostly intent on leaving for good. Having lived through 2 massive recessions
and seeing that the shitshow in the West is rapidly catching up with the
Bulgarian one, many of those "permanent" emigrants migrated back to Bulgaria.
This reverse emigration was especially evident after the 2008 recession when
about 40% of the young Bulgarians who left their country in the 1990s to go to
school/work in US an Western Europe came back to Bulgaria and settled there.
WHERE IS THE BBC ARTICLE ON THAT PHENOMENON?? This reverse emigration
continues to this day and in fact the little data that is available on the
subject suggests that it is primarily talented/educated/wealthy Bulgarians
that are coming back while the new emigrants to the West are mostly blue
collar workers. Moreover, even those new blue collar emigrants are not
emigrating permanently. The attitude towards immigrants and hence the
employment/financial opportunities for them have drastically soured in the
West over the last 10 years. So, when these new emigrants go to another
country they quickly realize that life in the new country won't be much easier
or significantly better renumerated compared to Bulgaria. So, most of them
stick around for a year or two and then they come back.

In summary, IMHO most UK media (including BBC), is on a crusade against
European former communist countries but is particularly biased and vicious
towards Bulgaria. This has been going on since the times of Churchill who is
famous for repeatedly stating that he will "uproot that thorny bush"
(referring to Bulgaria) that is interfering with UK imperial foreign policy.
While Bulgaria is clearly not in a good spot population-wise, it is not much
different from most other former Eastern Block members. The problems Bulgaria
faces have a lot more to do with the decline of capitalism (late stage
capitalism anyone?) and Western democracies in general, than some kind of
inherent problems with the country as BBC and other UK media have been
consistently insinuating over the last 100+ years. Bulgaria was simply kind of
"late to the show". So, the combination of a transition period and crumbling
Western world left the country stuck between a rock and a hard place. However,
despite all the lies and propaganda in UK media, the country is probably
experiencing reverse, quality, emigration by having many of the Western-
educated Bulgarians who left for good come back home. In addition, many of the
blue collar workers who leave the country are only doing so temporarily. Upon
realizing the harsh conditions in the countries they try to emigrate to, most
of them come back within 2-3 years.

There is simply no true journalist any more. It's mostly clikbait shitposting
even by "respected" outposts such as BBC or The Economist. The closest you
will come to real journalism these days is ProPublica but even they have been
succumbing to Mammon lately.

What comes out of many Western media outlets these days is simply a version of
"Look, over there - these other countries have it worse than us!" It's nothing
but a diversion tactic to shift attention from how rapidly deteriorating
quality of life has been in the West over the last 20 years. Just my 2c.

------
enether
Here's another Bulgarian in London's take:

The culture is toxic. Especially if you are a student in your 20s. Violence is
not uncommon and people generally look at you in a dominant way, even if
you're not frail. I am not part of the minority but I believe if you were an
evident homosexual it would be easy to get beat up/bullied.

Envy, especially prevalent outside the "big" Sofia, is everywhere. From my
experience, people are very materialistic in Bulgaria - perhaps it is the lack
that causes them to be such.

Small, close-minded people are very prevalent too. It is very hard to find
open-minded people who believe in possibilities. Lots of pessimism.

Quality of life is bad - there is no Amazon where you can "just" order what
you want, copies of services like UberEats/Deliveroo are awful and do not
offer high-quality food. In fact, the food is generally of low quality here in
Bulgaria - a ton of cheap bad-quality imports. Finding quality food means
going to local farmer's markets and special shops which is very time
consuming. No Uber/Lyft but an awful Taxi system where I can swear every
driver is a horrendous human being. I always cringe and try to keep my mouth
shut as to not engage in a conversation when I am riding in a Bulgarian taxi.

I recently traveled from Madrid to Sofia on a road trip and I immediately
noticed the horrendous customer service in Bulgaria compared to all the other
countries I passed. Many people are miserable and cannot break a smile even if
you made them. Not to say they're not justified but from my point of view I
would rather not be surrounded by it.

Nobody in the comments mentioned how incredibly dirty Bulgaria, and especially
Sofia, are. In the winter the snow never gets cleaned and walking places
becomes very difficult - a real drag. Roads are horrendous and full of mud,
dirty snow, etc. The air pollution in Sofia is one of the worst in Europe -
I've lived there for two years and depending on the region, you can be forced
to have your windows at home closed during the winter in order to avoid your
house smelling like dirt.

And as somebody else had said, as a native, it is incredibly easy to get
dragged back into the negatives of the country. I almost feel as if this place
has been ruined for me permanently because I disliked living there for so long
during my childhood. Bulgaria is not all bad, obviously, every place has some
good and some bad. Perhaps it is not a bad place to try out as a foreigner -
other foreigners seem to like it and there are constantly news in the
Bulgarian media of how "X" Australian family moved to live in a small rural
village and are enjoying life to the fullest.

One thing that stands out to me in Bulgaria is the quality of women. This may
be because of my nationality, but I find most Bulgarian women very attractive.
Further, a lot of them have been taught the right beliefs and are not after
money/attention but are rather looking for a stable decent man to fall in love
with.

That being said, I don't think I can ever come back and live a full life here.
Perhaps I can hang out in some mountain village when I want a break from
society, or rent a summer flat on the beach when I want to have some fun, but
I never see myself living the normal life of working a satisfying 9-5 in this
country - the environment is just not conducive to that.

------
ptah
maybe they should take all the syrian etc. refugees?

~~~
dang
Could you please stop posting unsubstantive comments to Hacker News?

~~~
ptah
sorry, my comment in this instance is based on
[https://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/europe/how-a-small-
ger...](https://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/europe/how-a-small-german-town-
mastered-the-refugee-crisis-1.3214660)

------
asdaddasdad
Since Bulgaria really doesn't seem to be very attractive at the moment, what
about Lithuiana? What is the situation like there? The article mentions it as
a competitor for fastest shrinking country in the EU.

