
Ask HN: How should I take advantage of unlimited PTO? - ketzo
I&#x27;ll be starting at a company soon that has an unlimited PTO policy. For context, this is a large (15k+ employee) enterprise software company that is known for having a good work-life balance.<p>I have seen this policy maligned often on HN (&quot;unlimited PTO == no PTO&quot;, etc.), but from my personal observations at my internship at the company, people were able to take significant advantage of it. One of my teammates was encouraged by our manager to take a two-week vacation after we finished a release cycle that he&#x27;d put a lot of extra effort into.<p>For devs who work with (and like) unlimited PTO: what are the advantages? How have you utilized it, or how do you regret not using it sooner?<p>For managers with employees in this system: When (if ever) have you felt like you were being taken advantage of? Do you like or dislike the system, both for yourself and for your team(s)?<p>I&#x27;d like to make fairly frequent use of PTO, as I believe strongly in having a life outside of work and in mental recuperation, but I also really don&#x27;t want to seem like a slacker. Any thoughts would be appreciated. (Aside from &quot;go work somewhere with 4 weeks vacation&quot; -- I&#x27;m quite excited about this job!)
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GreenJelloShot
"Unlimited PTO" is the biggest scam ever.

1) It is a lie. It is certainly NOT "unlimited" in any way, shape or form, and
everyone knows it. Can you take 10 years off? How about 1 year off? How about
6 months off? Nope. "Unlimited" is a lie. There is a limit. But now it is a
"secret" limit.

2) Unlimited PTO = Limited PTO and the limit is 100% determined by your
manager. If you manager likes you, your secret limit will be high. If you
manager does not like you, your limit will be low or even ZERO. Unlimited PTO
means a manager can just refuse to approve any of your requests and there is
NOTHING you can do about it.

3) Unlimited PTO means extra confusion for everyone. Instead of knowing that
you can count on 2, 3 or 4 weeks vacation, you simply never know how much time
you can get. And this time can change at ANY time.

4) Unlimited PTO means unequal time off for people. Some people will get to
take more time off than others. It is guaranteed to be unfair and guaranteed
to be gamed. Basically, it encourages people to take time off early for every
excuse (instead of saving time up). Also, it encourages lying. You want to
take some time off, better to claim that your kid is sick than to be honest
and say you want to go to a baseball game.

5) Unlimited PTO = no privacy. Now you have to explain and justify every time
you want to take a few days off. When you have 2, 3 or 4 guaranteed weeks off,
you just say "I wish to take my X weeks off at these times". You do not need
to explain that you going to just lay in front of the TV and binge watch 90's
shows. But with Unlimited PTO, there are no guarantees. So now your manager
can demand that you justify every request. Instead of notifying, now you have
to beg.

6) Unlimited time off is am employee-hostile position. Imagine if a company
offered a "unlimited salary". You get paid whatever your boss wants to pay you
every month. It might be zero or it might be a million bucks. Would you agree
to that? No. No one would. Then WHY would you agree to an unlimited PTO?

~~~
kilo_bravo_3
>Then WHY would you agree to an unlimited PTO?

Because not only does my employer have unlimited PTO policy, it has a
mandatory minimum PTO policy.

It also has a mandatory minimum duration PTO policy.

As an employee, I MUST take at least 20 working days off per year, and among
that time off there must be AT LEAST 10 working days taken off in a row,
measured Monday - Friday for two weeks.

And federal holidays don't count for those 20 working days (though they do
count for the two week minimum).

If I want to take two days off to binge-watch Seinfeld, I mark Thursday and
Friday as "off" in our company app and my manager swings by my office and says
"How's Project-X going?" and I say "on schedule" and he taps "approve" on his
phone and then we talk about how I'm just going to lay around in my boxers and
watch Seinfeld for four days in a row.

Of course, he already knows that Project-X is on schedule because he's in
Mattermost the same as I, he just happened to pass by on his way to the
cafeteria and wanted to chat about his new OneWheel and how awesome it is.

If, in December, you have not met your quota of 20 working days off, they
order you to not come in for the balance counted back from New Year's Eve, not
counting Christmas Day, and that is non-negotiable. They even suspend your
accounts for the last two weeks of the year if you haven't met your two week
obligation.

~~~
suh_dude
That sounds pretty great, have never heard of another company doing something
like that.

~~~
mxab
That sounds pretty standard for jobs in Germany, though. I get 30 days of
vacation a year (!= sick days) that I'm required to take, otherwise my boss
sends me angry mails.

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palidanx
I worked at 2 companies with unlimited PTO and didn't like the experiences at
either company. In reality, there would be a real number management expected
you not to go over.

I would take more PTO than expected and then get verbally told, "for your
position, you are taking more than your peer group."

What I would do is have an upfront discussion with your manager to clear out
what is within expectation. Is it 3 weeks, 4 weeks, 5 weeks?

The problem with unlimited PTO is that sometimes you can feel guilty taking
more, because you aren't entitled to it unlike a set of PTO you would get at
any other company.

~~~
Aeolun
Yeah, I think given unlimited, I’d make it clear to my manager that I expect
that to mean I can take 25 days off, and possibly more if I absolutely have
to. As long as that understanding is there I don’t think it’s necessarily a
problem.

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codegeek
I don't have a direct answer for you but as someone who hires for my own
business, I hate unlimited vacation bullshit. It puts the pressure on the
employee to decide what is reasonable and also the company gets away not
paying any minimum un-used vacation time (which employees deserve).

I would have a "minimum" vacation days policy if we do use unlimited but then
it defeats the purpose for employers who want to NOT pay for any un-used
vacation days. Just do 4 weeks and be done with it if you can afford it.

~~~
idunno246
It's even worse than just putting pressure on the employee. my manager has a
number of days he thinks is reasonable, his manager has another, and his
manager has yet another - and at one point a minimum was higher than another's
maximum.

It really isnt fair, I don't know employee who actually considers it a
benefit. It's like a contract, just write it down so everyone knows what to
expect.

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Someone1234
If companies really wanted their employees to use their "unlimited PTO" then
they would also include a MINIMUM usage (e.g. 4 weeks a year minimum).

The actual reason "unlimited PTO" exists is to reduce total PTO and so
companies don't have to pay out unused PTO in certain states (the states were
"unlimited" is coincidentally popular).

As to "how to best use it?" that's very job/manager specific.

~~~
zapperdapper
On your first point: In UK there is a minimum usage _by law_. For full-time
workers that's 28 days paid leave and that includes typically 8 public
holidays. Not sure if that applies in US though. I agree with you on the other
two points.

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jakemal
The company I work for has unlimited PTO and I really enjoy it. Even if I
don't use significantly more than if I had a set number of days, I really
appreciate having the peace of mind that comes with it. I don't have to worry
about running out of days by the end of the year or rationing my days to
accommodate a long future vacation.

I've had a week-long vacation planned for almost a year now that is coming up
later this month. I also recently found out that my entire immediate family,
who are all spread across the country, have a week period in February where we
would all be able to get together for the first time in years. So I am taking
another 8 day vacation three weeks after my first one. I don't think that
would be possible without unlimited PTO.

I think it really depends on the company. I am sure the stories are true that
companies use unlimited as a way to guilt people into not taking vacation, but
it sounds like you found a place where that's not the case. As long as the
company culture is there, unlimited PTO is definitely a nice perk to have.

~~~
zapperdapper
Yes, the peace of mind that comes with it is a good point. I do really
appreciate that aspect.

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Jamwinner
Unlimited PTO usually ends up being a confidence trick to guilt people into
even less time off. If it was truly unlimited, few people would show up. If
people just need to work the hours to finish the work, that is already
happening and/or there is not enough work. No interpretation seems to favor
the employee in the long run. This is merely my observation and opinion.

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DevX101
Unlimited PTO is not unlimited. It's a financial sleight of hand to reduce the
liability on the company's books.

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joshstrange
Unlimited PTO... the best way to approach this IMHO is to set your own limit.
Make it reasonable 15-20 days, this is depend on a number of factors only you
can determine, then keep track yourself of the days you ask off for PTO. If
you get pushback you have your records to show exactly how much you've taken
and you can help ease some of the guilt these systems were created to make you
feel.

Unlimited PTO normally results in people taking less PTO because they feel
guilty or don't see their peers taking PTO and they want to be a team player.
Fuck that noise.

Do good work. Make yourself take your self-created PTO time/limit. Look for
another job if you hit their hidden limit and it's much lower than you would
have accepted had you known (ie. after taking 10 days you start to hear BS
about taking too much PTO).

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forthwall
I work at a company that does unlimited PTO as well. I think the best way to
go about it is take off two/three large breaks (2weeks+) throughout the year
and then many small breaks scattered (2days). Good managers will not mind as
long as you’re completing your work.

~~~
finnthehuman
>as long as you’re completing your work

"completing" work is as wishy-washy of a term as "unlimited" PTO.

I've been on a project for 5 years, and it's still not done. Is any forward
progress "completion"? How much forward progress is worth how many days of
vacation?

Is my work "complete" whenever it's released to users? Or never "complete"
because the backlog has never been paid down?

Is "complete" a function of how much I get done relative to how much was
expected of me in a given time period; making my unspoken limit subject to the
accuracy of schedule estimation and how aggressively management schedules?

Is my work "complete" only when we have breathing room in the schedule and
it's a convenient time to take vacation? Does my unlimited PTO stop in the
middle of a 2 week vacation as soon as there is a sufficiently big fire?

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unlinked_dll
jeez, talk about this kind of stuff brings out the most reactionary people on
HN.

One advantage is that it's really easy to take a day or two off without
thinking about it. That was my experience, I live far from my family and
unlimited PTO made it super easy to take a day off every few weeks to fly out
for a visit.

Another advantage/disadvantage is that it really brings out the culture.
You'll learn extremely quickly how the company values work/life balance. It's
either great or terrible ime.

A huge disadvantage is that unlike veritable _paid_ time off, if you are laid
off, quit, etc, they don't have to pay you a dime.

~~~
BillyGoatGates
I would love to know the name of this company that gives employees 5+ weeks
off, including holidays.

~~~
zapperdapper
Yeah most companies in Europe I would say. Even in a non-unlimited PTO company
you'd get at least 25 days (paid) typically plus 8 paid public holidays in
addition.

At some companies you can give up 'points' to get more paid time off. I think
at Oracle UK I could get up to 46 paid days off by using up some perk points
(actually not that many). Not sure if they still do that.

The legal minimum in UK is 28 days paid leave for full-time workers, but that
includes 8 days paid for public holidays.

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zapperdapper
I'm currently on DTO (Discretionary Time Off) and it works great. Last year I
took 7 weeks paid. If I'd had a decent justification I could have taken more.
Some colleagues took a _lot_ more (like 3 months). This year I have a couple
of long holidays planned so think I'll take around 10 weeks, possibly more.
Only breaks longer than two weeks need to be approved by my manager.

To be legal you have to take the statutory minimum holiday or the company
would be in trouble (at least in the UK), so they are quite stringent about
you taking at least the statutory minimum (for full-time workers that's 28
days in UK and that includes Bank Holidays), so typically 20 days minimum
excluding BHs.

The downside is if you leave the company you won't get holiday pay. For
example, let's say I'm entitled to 24 days annual holiday at a non-DTO
company, and then leave after 6 months, without taking holiday, I'd be
entitled to 12 days pay (for my paid holiday entitlement). At a DTO company
you get zilch as I understand it. I've not left yet but I think that's how it
works. Something to check.

I personally think it's a great perk. Depends what your priorities are though
and the above is a bit UK specific.

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jf22
I've had the same experiences with unlimited PTO as a lot of the other
commenters.

I hit the soft cap of unlimited PTO after requesting my 16th day off in a row.
I wasn't denied but had to get multiple approvals and jump through some hoops.

One thing to watch out for is when people say "if your work is done, take off
whenever you want".

What that means if your manager has a lot of projects in the pipeline it means
your work probably won't be "done" to their satisfaction.

The deadlines and pressures people put onto whoever approves your PTO tends to
change how productive they perceive you to be...

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duxup
I'd start with a discussion with your manager about how this system works.
That relationship may be the entire key. If someone decides "hey that's too
much" it might be as simple as your manager telling them "naw he's good" and
problem solved.

Knowing how that works (or just observing) might tell you a lot.

The last place I worked with unlimited PTO effectively worked that way. If
someone inquired about what was going on and the front line manager said it
was ok, nobody cared.

I too have heard of the "unlimited = no" stories but not experienced them so
obviously every place is different.

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burntoutfire
Recently, I've had an ok offer from a startup (very interesting work, but
mediocre salary) that I was seriously considering. Unlimited PTO was
ultimately one of the major factors which made me decide against it. I asked
them during the interview if it is really unlimited - for example, is it OK if
I take 5 weeks of per year? The answer was no, it's more like 2 weeks - i.e.
there's clearly a limit if you ask about it. The scumminess of the arrangement
made me not want to work with them.

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throw03172019
My friend had unlimited PTO at the startup she worked at (~300 people). Her
boss sat her down and told her she needs to respect the companies unlimited
PTO policy after she took “too much” PTO. She quit shortly after they sent her
an email about following the “unlimited” PTO policy. So yes, it’s scammy. Be
careful!

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beckingz
One of the advantages of manager turnover is that 2-3 weeks per manager looks
perfectly reasonable for unlimited PTO.

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geoelectric
Check the "highest paying companies" thread.

One of the top comments leads to a discussion of unlimited PTO. There's a long
reply in there that lays out a bunch of "here's how" bullet points. Working at
an unlimited PTO place, they were right on the money.

~~~
shinryuu
Have you got a link to the thread?

~~~
geoelectric
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21973077](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21973077)

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bradyo
If you didn't have unlimited PTO, how much would you be happy with? Tell, not
ask, your manager your expectation. This is ideally done immediately upon
starting. Afterwards, act like you have that amount of a vacation, and then
take it.

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diehunde
Work hard during 3-4 months, then 2-3 week vacation.

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smarri
Can someone take 100% PTO?

~~~
jakemal
Yes, but it will be 100% of a very short tenure.

