
Angry young Indians: What a waste - pajju
http://www.economist.com/news/leaders/21577372-how-india-throwing-away-worlds-biggest-economic-opportunity-what-waste
======
f1vespeed
As a US-raised Indian I'm not familiar with the macro details. But I've been
living in India for the past few years working for a startup, so let me
identify some low-hanging fruit.

1) Incredibly, shockingly poor hygiene. Dirty black rags being used repeatedly
to dry plates at restaurants. Idlys being cooked on plastic sheets inside hot
streamers. Infernoes of uncollected trash burning on streets. Rats and
cockroaches everywhere including your toothbrush at night.

2) Utterly horrifying road conditions. Potholes large enough to cause
motorcycle crashes every 100 feet. A culture of not giving the other motorist
more than 6 inches on any side. Driving on the wrong side of the road,
including on highways. It's incredibly stressful to think about your odds when
you leave the house.

3) A political system that no-one is optimistic about. Stories are rampant of
politicians buying votes by giving free household appliances away to the poor,
and then doing nothing in office to help them.

4) An education system that isn't remotely good enough. Miserable professors,
antiquated curriculums that churn out the IT coolies we're so famous for.

5) Congestion so bad you hardly ever leave a 5-mile radius. People tend to
hang out based on which neighborhood they live in, because a trip to a
friend's place more than 5 miles away can turn into an hour-long slog on
terrifying roads.

6) A culture of being cheap. If you're only willing to tip your waiter 10
rupees, it may help out your savings rate, but it certainly won't help the
waiter buy his kid a computer someday. Same goes for our beloved household
servants, who get paid $150 per month at best, $40 at worst to clean our
floors.

But to voice a conflict that everyone who lives here talks about, I'm not a
pessimist about India by any means, because it's amazing how much the people
of this country have achieved through individual hard work in the face of so
many poor institutions.

~~~
chailatte
I am a huge pessimist about India. here's why.

1.) Everyone in the thread is ignoring a huge point raised by the author: this
is the last biggest bubble we will ever witness in our lifetime (and possibly
for many lifetimes) due to

a.) unpeg of gold standard

b.) shift from farm to factory work

c.) shift from one income to two income household

d.) machine/software advances

and many other factors has produced the greatest economic growth we have ever
seen in history. However, due to

a.) unsustainable financial gambling

b.) wealth growth only in top 1%, mostly through rentier effects

c.) robots, automation and artificial intelligence resulting in jobs
destruction

d.) population slowdown, shift to older demographics

the second dip in global economic depression is happening. and will induce so
much deflation soon that 99% of the world population will be very very poor.
for 3-4 generations.

2.) due to the lack of hygiene/lack of transportation/too many people/bad
weather/trash everywhere/homeless everywhere/fecal matters on the streets/too
many doctors prescribing antibiotics, resulting in super-resistant viruses,
there will be a huge epidemic sooner or later that might wipe out millions of
people, and nobody will be able to do anything about it because the crash in
the economy.

3.) Growth in IT outsourcing is no more. Foreign investments are down big.
There are better countries for companies to invest in that have better
infrastructure and speaks better english.

~~~
kamaal
>>Growth in IT outsourcing is no more. Foreign investments are down big. There
are better countries for companies to invest in that have better
infrastructure and speaks better english.

No and I thing you've got it wrong.

We are soon hitting a stage where we don't have to depend of foreign
investments. Its happening, software is but just one aspect of foreign
investments. There is real estate, retail sectors, education, manufacturing,
automobile etc. That list can go endless.

Nearly every global company today understands if they don't come to India now,
the local companies are going to eat their lunch big time and leaving all
doors of making a entry later permanently shut.

Every time I see somebody good leave India I feel bad for them. They have no
clue what they will miss over the next decades. With hardly any competition in
a country where demands are rising so rapidly, almost anything you make people
want will sell. Even if you make it badly.

Consider this with settling down in US, something like next half of your life
will simply go in 'getting somewhere'. You will simply going there for your
kids. And consider yourself lucky if they value your sacrifices and do
something big out of it. Else there will be a situation where post 30 years
your kids might want to come to India to settle there kids.

~~~
joonix
I think you overestimate how much people are willing to live in shitty
conditions in exchange for business opportunities. The US may not be a
boomtown but it has opportunity to live a comfortable life if you can add
value. Most people would prefer quality of life + "just getting somewhere"
(the American standard) over living in a dump + business opportunities.

~~~
kamaal
There no 'shitty conditions'. Not by what I perceive and experience.

People who opted to stay in India to reap the benefits of the IT boom in the
90's are in something like a million times better conditions than the guys who
left to the US in the 90's.

If you want to be super rich, this is the time to be in India. And it will be
at least for the next half century, there is too much room to grow and there
is far little genuine competition.

~~~
openforce
Business opportunities, money, being rich is not what life is all about. Clean
air, clean water, good work culture, honesty and respect for other human
beings is what is missing in India. There is somebody in every corner looking
to con you here in India. Conditions are very pathetic. Its a rat race in the
cities, with every person trying to outrun the next guy. People are aware of
the money they can make and are blinded by it. All they see and respond to
nowadays is money.

------
sridharvembu
I am optimistic about India, in spite of all the problems. First, almost all
the problems are accounted for by the $1200 GDP per capita. It is hard to
visualize just how scarce resources are to solve problems when you are that
poor. At the municipal level, annual budgets of $20-$30 per capita would be
considered good in India, even in a relatively prosperous city (by Indian
standards) like Chennai. Lack of hygiene and sanitation are almost entirely
explained by that $20 per capita.

If you read the history of cities like New York and London a century and a
half ago, they had very similar problems to what a city like Chennai is going
through.

Now the reason for optimism: the skill level among young Indians is growing
rapidly, thanks to the spread of basic education and growing aspiration among
all classes of Indians. That is the foundation on which economic growth is
built, and economic growth is the only way we are going to solve our other
problems.

~~~
zapf
No way man.

If your daddy doesn't have money you can't get no education.

If your daddy doesn't have money you can't enough vitamins to get the brain or
the proteins to get the muscles to work properly.

If your daddy doesn't have money you can't even shit with dignity.

Without a middle class or a rich daddy, you are basically screwed.

When 37% of Indians live below poverty line. I dunno how you think skill and
nutrition levels are increasing.
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poverty_in_India#Poverty_estima...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poverty_in_India#Poverty_estimates)

To get India going, we need to do all the the article is saying - spend on
food, health and eduction. But I would add the state needs to do that, private
sector will just screw the poor further - no deliberately, but shit happens.

Being optimistic is just that, optimistic.

~~~
sridharvembu
All of the problems were much worse 35 years ago. Yet, in spite of all that,
India has made progress. I assume you are very young - I am approaching 45,
and I am more optimistic now than when I was at 25.

I am not just being optimistic, I am putting my money and my time where my
mouth is.

------
gyepi
>The average age of cabinet ministers is 65. The country has never had a prime
minister born in independent India. >One man who might buck that trend, Rahul
Gandhi, is the son, >grandson and great-grandson of former prime ministers.
>India is run by gerontocrats and epigones: grey hairs and groomed heirs.

Aside from that wonderful turn of phrase, this may well be the key concept:
India has long been run by entrenched interests for their own benefit and the
situation shows no signs of abating.

~~~
vacri
This being said, it's unusual for a democratic head of government to be
anything other than a grey-hair. Other movers and shakers, sure, but to climb
to the very top in a democracy generally takes a while.

~~~
seanmcdirmid
I don't think this is true in Western democracies, where age can be a
liability during an election. Advisers yes, but the guy running on the ticket
needs to project charisma and vigor as well as some wisdom. The funny thing
about elections: the electorate doesn't look at your CV so much; Obama was
just a 1 term senator before he became president. Having more political
experience would have actually been a liability for him as he would be seen as
more of an insider.

This is definitely true in the directly elected presidential system we have in
the states (definitely true post Clinton, even Reagan was an exception).
Parliamentary systems are a bit different since the prime minister is elected
indirectly, but even there we are seeing some fairly young heads of states in
the UK and Germany (Cameron is 40 something, Merkell has been their 7 years
and hasn't even hit 60 yet).

------
31reasons
What I have learned is that Indians severely lack "social intelligence". I am
not talking about the kind which makes you good with people. I am talking
about, how much a person thinks that What is good for people surrounding you
is also good for you. I think average indian's such intelligence is perhaps is
in negative.

I have seen people throw trash on the streets without any regard for others.
Same goes for every other resources and issues. Each indian lives in a bubble
of their own home, which is perfectly clean but total disregard anything
outside the walls.

There are some socially enlightened groups like Ugly Indians
([https://www.facebook.com/pages/The-Ugly-
Indian/1234597910466...](https://www.facebook.com/pages/The-Ugly-
Indian/123459791046618)) doing great work, which I hope extend to the entire
country.

~~~
habosa
It may be a lack of "social intelligence" as you say, but it could also be a
result of Broken Windows Theory
(<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broken_windows_theory>). What incentive does
one person have to organize his/her trash when there are already massive
burning piles in the street?

~~~
modarts
I feel that the concept of the "Tragedy of the Commons" more closely mirrors
this aspect of "social intelligence" that the original commenter referred to.

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tragedy_of_the_commons>

------
fosap
>Worryingly, a growing share of household saving is bypassing the financial
system altogether, seeking refuge from inflation in gold, bricks and mortar.

This is great. It means it's a kind of sustainable. 1) In case of a crisis
(which will come) It won't be thrown back too much.

1) I think India is anything but sustainable due to their enormous population
growth.

~~~
melling
Why does their population growth have to be a negative? They are currently as
big as China, which will have the biggest economy in the world within a
decade. They should invest in the population and rise to the top.

~~~
lake99
I have the impression that the landmass of India is insufficient to sustain
its population. Let's say the food supply is managed perfectly (it isn't) and
no one is going hungry. How about the fact that 60% of the population does not
have access to reliable electricity? How about the fact that most big cities
have scheduled power-cuts (mostly in summer) for 2-6 hours each day? Energy
needs are just the tip of this iceberg. I think of India's population as one
of the most significant factors in keeping the country poor and
underdeveloped.

~~~
zanny
Do keep in mind the reason the explloding population is bad is not exclusively
because of the raw number of people or the lack of food or power availability
(both can be improved with tech) but more because the population explosion is
in the poorest Indians in the most isolated areas who suddenly came into
contact with basic medicine and health practice in the last 30 years.

Population explosions at the bottom always hurt economies, and you just never
see them happen at the top for a plethora of reasons.

~~~
lake99
India does not have a big problem with food production. It has a problem with
the storage and dispersal of food. The problem is not with the tech, but with
management (in turn, with corruption). Power: The only tech that can fix it is
cost-effective solar power, which is a long way off. Otherwise India imports
coal, petroleum and uranium. India's resources cannot sustain its power needs.

Population explosion will be at the bottom in India. Improving healthcare (by
charities also) and worsening (or non-existent) education points only in one
direction.

------
at-fates-hands
India reminds me a lot of what Taiwan used to be. About 10-15 years ago, they
were a big joke when he came to cycle manufacturing. The quality of the bikes
they produced and the factories there were horrible sweatshops.

Then, they started getting better. They updated their technology, they had
better trained workers to run the new machines. Then bike manufacturers
started to see what was going on, and started moving big chunks of their
manufacturing over there. Last time I checked, companies like Giant, Trek, and
Specialized all have some of their manufacturing over there now. Their
factories are some of the most advanced manufacturing plants in the world.

I think India has the same potential, but its still about 3-5 years from
realizing its own potential. It will be interesting to see if it can make the
jump, or remain a great "what if. . " story line.

~~~
auctiontheory
Education, infrastructure, and even basic literacy are at least an order of
magnitude worse in India than in Taiwan.

~~~
chailatte
taiwan also didn't also have the problem of

1.) large population

2.) squatters rights

3.) apathetic/spineless voters

4.) human fecal matters on the streets

5.) water shortage

6.) religious ferver

7.) entranched corruption

8.)....many more

~~~
seanmcdirmid
Taiwan and SK also had strong dictatorships until relatively recently; we
aren't really talking about democracy until the 80s. Now, dictatorships are
_bad_ , but as long as the dictators are somewhat responsible, they do convey
some amount of stability and economic development on the country that might
not be possible (at that time) with a more chaotic democratic system. I'm not
pro dictator, and I'm sure there was a more efficient path to prosperity that
involved democracy, but this is just how it worked out.

Today see China, or Singapore if you think maybe the Lee family has a bit too
much power than is justified in a real democracy.

~~~
wisty
Maybe it's not really dictatorship vs democracy.

India has an English democracy. Everything in India was originally designed to
support a wealthy English middle-class (if it was important directly from the
UK), or to extract wealth from poor Indians so it could be exported to the UK.

I'm saying, India's institutions are overbuilt. They were originally designed
to work in a far richer, and far more orderly country. There are certainly
some things which are "one size fits all", but for anything which is only
appropriate with a large, law abiding middle class it fails horribly in India.

~~~
seanmcdirmid
This is a good point. But I would wonder: what kind of democracy/government
would be appropriate for a developing country? It should somehow promote
stability and development, and perhaps not focus so much on liberty and
freedom. This realization makes me a bit uncomfortable as an American living
in China.

------
rikacomet
I did a research a while back. For an entrepreneur, there are only two things
he can make broadly, products and services. While services is a another thing,
new products depend on a major workforce of prototyping industry.

Product Development in short is: Idea --> CAD File -- Prototype

It appears, that most of the prototyping firms, do not pick up from in the
middle, i.e, If I had a Idea, no firm was ready to produce a CAD file. Even
China based prototyping companies only take CAD files, and do not help you,
with the CAD generation.

Meaning, if you don't undergo, a extensive training in software like
Solidworks or AutoCAD which is both expensive and time consuming, or not find
a engineer already well trained in them, you have no scope of converting your
idea into a reality.

This is a bottle neck for entrepreneurs in India.

~~~
mayank
Bottleneck, or opportunity?

~~~
rikacomet
bottleneck for those who don't have either money or skill to take this
opportunity.

------
anuraj
India is too large a country with dysfunctional democracy and bureaucracy
which is hard if not impossible to fix. Indian states are liguistically,
culturally and ethnically separate republics. The true way out for India is to
follow an EU style governance formula, where ethnic states become autonomous
republics with a common parliament, common currency and common defence
mechanism. Indian states once released from the shackles of a centralized
bureaucracy can perform much better and develop faster. States like Kerala,
Tamilnadu and Gujarat can achieve developed nation status with in few decades
at most. Kerala alone can become a $250B economy from the current $65B if only
it is allowed to mend its own affairs.

------
general_failure
The biggest problem with India is the lack of nationalism. Most Indians are
not proud of India. If they were, all it's problems would get fixed for real.
India is like 'Europe' - each state is a country of it's own. My solution to
the whole problem is to spin off many states into separate countries. The
people would be lot happier that way - most don't want to live together
anyway. And then have some sort of schengen visa to enable free movement
between states. 'State' level nationalism is a lot lot lot more than 'Country'
level nationalism.

------
newernpguy
India has a talented workforce in search of the next big industry, or the
country will become a one-trick pony

------
nnq
I'm not Indian, but I _truly_ hope that India rises above it's current
economical level, for _the good of the entire world._ Having whole generations
of very hard-working ( _too_ hard working!) young people that have grown with
an unhealthy tolerance for very bad working conditions, work abuse and for bad
living conditions _decreases the quality of working conditions worldwide (or
in EU and US at least)_ and enforces a stereotype that will only turn back to
hurt the younger generations of Indians.

My advice to qualified hard-working Indians (or any other qualified and
educated people emigrating for a poorer country to a richer one):

1\. be _PROUD_ of yourself, don't be willing to work for 2x less just because
you've just immigrated to an EU country or to the US (or for 10x less if
you're working in your home country for an outsourcer)! you don't deserve
less!

2\. stop selling yourself with the "I can work really hard" label on your head
- every employer and manager will _respect you less as a human being_ if you
do so, even if they may value you more (as in "business value", _not human
value!_ ). (let me tell you something: even if business owners and top
managers paint themselves as _hard working guys_ , they just do it to project
this image to their employees - 50% didn't get there by working _hard_ , but
by working _smart_ an by good delegation and externalizing skills; only 10%
probably got there by sheer hard work; and the other 40%... let's just say you
don't want them as your role models :) )

3\. once you get to a certain skill level, grow a bit of _smugness_ , _pride_
and _condescendence_ for God's sake (it's healthy for you, trust me!), and try
to wear the "reluctant genius" hat form time to time instead of the "hard
working bee" one, even if it's not who you are - it teaches people the value,
scarcity and tricky nature of "high quality wetware", it teaches that they
have to pay top dollars for brainpower and accept that it will not always work
as they want it and they just have to put up with this!

4\. don't be afraid to _show Uncle Sam the finger_ if you get caught in an US
VISA trap, like being unable to quit your job because you'll loose your H1B
VISA or something - this is _demeaning_ and you shouldn't work in a country
that puts you in such a situation, even if you'd earn more and learn more than
anywhere else! You shouldn't because you don't have to: _the "rich" world is
bigger than the US:_ there's Canada, Europe, Australia, rising economies in
South American countries etc.

Be angry, but also be _proud_ and don't sell yourself short even if it hurts
you in the short run - by asking for more and doing less you're actually
making the world a better place for your children, even if it seems against
your intuition and values!

~~~
harichinnan
For people who qualify for H1B and other immigration visas, the following are
true. 1\. Vast majority are from really rich families. Like million dollars in
family assets. The education is either very expensive or they were top
students in their schools, which usually happens because they went to private
schools. 2\. People working in India never take low pay after 2 years of
experience. It's only during the first few years that we trade an opportunity
to gain experience with low wages. Theres a very high attrition rate in all it
companies in India and salaries are ever increasing. 3\. Young Indians have
the opposite problem of being hard working. Most spend extended hours in
office to socialize than to actually get stuff done. 4\. The part about
growing smugness is true. Indians traditionally seldom call ourselves
"experts" in any thing even if we know stuff. 5\. Losing h1b is big deal. You
are given notice to leave country with your family in no time. Technically u
need to leave the country within a month if you don't want to be barred from
reentry. So in that one month, you have to try and sell all your stuff, cars,
house, furniture, discontinue schooling for your kids and collect transcripts,
medical records,file taxes,payoff debt. Instead most people would jump into
any job to hold onto the status.

~~~
nnq
What you say at (1) is not gonna be true anymore: with all the open courses
and other high quality learning resource available online for free, at least
in the IT/CS/Math and even physics are, we'll have a huge number of mostly
self educated professionals, and in areas like software where a nice portfolio
of projects trumps any fancy diploma they will be very valued and employable!
And they will also be put in a position of selling themselves short by
comparing themselves with western Europe or US schooled people (the guy with a
diploma from a fancy US uni will have the guts to ask for far more than
someone with a diploma from an Indian uni, even if he is less competent!
...and this is the best case scenario: if, let's say, a Harvard schooled guy
is stupid enough to ask for less than he's worth, anyone else will have to
make do with even less than he does!) and they will accept worse deals. And
that's the danger I'm talking of: _this will make all employers expect more
for less, from everyone!_

About (4), indeed, having a family to take care of greatly restricts your
mobility (and I bet this is what the guys doing US immigration policy bet on!)
- but you can avoid the issue before it happens: take a better look at other
options besides US as most EU countries have more flexible VISAs and such
(yeah, having to speak German - Berlin area seems to be shaping up as Europe's
SV nowadays - and French and maybe Spanish or something else fluently on top
of English is hard, especially for techies with not so good language and
social skills, but it opens up a lot of doors and gives you more bargaining
power for yourself).

------
lake99
Words, words, and more empty words!

> But the likes of Bharat Forge and Mahindra & Mahindra prefer to employ
> sophisticated machinery rather than abundant labour.

Surely, it employs labour. Why does the author claim that machines are
preferred over labour? What does he compare it with? Where are the numbers?

> At the other end of the spectrum are innumerable tinpot workshops, employing
> handfuls of people and outdated methods.

Sure, there are such workshops. Everywhere.

> What India lacks is a Mittelstand of midsized, labour-hungry firms.

Anything to back up this claim? How does India compare to other countries on
this front? Where is the data? Where is the analysis?

> These include India’s notorious labour laws which, on paper, prevent
> factories firing anyone without the state’s permission.

Is this really true? What Act/Article Number should I be looking at?

My impression of the article is that it is a tale / Told by an idiot, full of
sound and fury, / Signifying nothing.

~~~
intended
The burden of proof is on you; further - I can corroborate everything about
manufacturing even after woking in only a medium sized manufacturing firm.

People can't be fired, and as a result few people are technically employees of
a firm - they are usually employed with a labor outsourcing firm that moves
people out after two years or n-1 years, where n = number of years before
automatic entitlement to provident fund/pension plans.

When I last heard it was something like n=3 years.

There is mass absenteeism if there's a festival or someone needs help in the
fields, or just if people think that they can't be fired.

Did you know that your cash for payments of salaries of workers has to be
within x kilometres of your factory?

It's one of many rules people don't follow, because there is a forest of
rules.

Then there's strikes, and corruption.

To provide an idea of what the attitude difference is between people on HN and
the people who have so far never really had to think of professional modern
commercial systems :

There's a long way to go before the unspoken assumptions on the ground at a
labor level closely match anything such as a forum like HN.

A banker went to collect a loan instalment from a farmer. The farmers reaction
was "holy hell! Haven't they come up with a debt forgiveness scheme for it
already?"

People still think that money can come from thin air, provided you have the
connections to protect you or access to votes.

Why work when you can just make sure you won't get fired and are guaranteed an
increment because of the union?

And the on the other side you have the firms- hemmed by 100s of laws
to,protect labor, they yet find a way to do what they can/want.

The government has created internship program's which can lead to a
certification, and I've heard of firms warping the system to convert it into
cheap labor.

The article doesn't have numbers because the numbers are a search away and
these are a group of known, fundamental facts.

The economist isn't supposed to make every article a phd dissertation or a
full fledged wiki on the off chance that someone unfamiliar with the
background material is unable to perform a google search themselves.

~~~
lake99
> The burden of proof is on you;

For what claims of mine?

> People can't be fired

Ha! I have seen people getting fired all the time! Did you mean blue-collar
workers can't be fired?

> I can corroborate everything ...

With anecdotal evidence?

> automatic entitlement to provident fund/pension plans

We are entitled to that from the very first day of employment, if the company
has more than a certain number of employees. When we quit and go to another
company, we are given the option of transferring it to the next employer.

> There is mass absenteeism if there's a festival or someone needs help in the
> fields

Anecdotal. I have not seen this.

> ... off chance that someone unfamiliar with the background material is
> unable to perform a google search themselves.

I mentioned specific weaknesses. Show me the relevant Google queries that you
would use to get the data. It will be a learning experience for one of us.

~~~
intended
You are entitled to a PF/pension if you are an employee of,a form. But if you
are an employee of a labor firm which then sends you to Mahindra and Mahindra
to work - you are not entitled to a pension from Mahindra.

On top of that if you get fired after two years, you haven't worked long
enough to be counted as an employee of the labor form or as a de facto
employee of Mahindra. Hence no PF for you.

This is the scam people are forced to use as common place because of higher
and fire laws heavily favouring labor.

Edit: I must add that firms also,actively try to screw labor over. I used the
word forced because I was referring to a firm which did not have malicious
intent.

As for searching, try Wikipedia. It will get you to the labor laws in question
and from there the laws of the land.

Further the issue with anecdote is when they are extrapolated too far from a
single incident.

But I am regurgitating the experience of multiple different individuals who
have worked in many different firms.

This is the basis upon which the firms expansion plans are made.

Also, after the murder of the manager at the maruti plant, there's is yet
another distinct urge to remove labor from the equation and avoid situations
where your managers can be killed.

Heck - Labor management firms exist, and are used in every industry in India.
You can see references to them in multiple news articles when the issue of
labor is discussed.

The level of disintermediation required that makes outsourcing labor viable as
a business model is in itself a red flag.

Further this is what HR managers and consultants take for granted - they are
the ones who named firms which use interns as cheap throwaway labor, and a
plethora of,other practices that horrified me but were treated as commonplace
and business-as-usual.

If you haven't seen as absenteeism for festivals and so on, I must ask where
your factories are located.

~~~
lake99
> As for searching, try Wikipedia. It will get you to the labor laws in
> question and from there the laws of the land.

All I see is, "Wikipedia/Google. Therefore, I am right."

I know contract workers are not entitled to pensions from client firms. What
relation does that have with the article I was commenting on, or my comments?

Look, your anecdotal evidence does not correlate with mine at all. I will add
that the labour/owner dynamics vary a lot from state to state. Tamil Nadu,
Kerala, UP, Rajasthan are all vastly different from each other. Absenteeism
during festivals? I have heard of that in Kerala. Not in Karnataka, not in UP.
Managers getting physically attacked? I have seen that in UP, seen threats in
Karnataka, Andhra, not seen in Tamil Nadu. This is exactly why sound analysis
based on sound data is important.

