
Spouses of Some H-1B Visa Holders to Be Allowed to Work - goshx
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/05/07/us/politics/us-plan-aims-to-draw-immigrants-with-technology-skills.html
======
tn13
The more I read about H1B laws more I find it ridiculous. US immigration laws
are the best example of how policy making runs based on fabricated fears
rather than pragmatism.

If a spouse is in Us for 6 years on H4, she is essentially sitting ducks all
those years not doing anything. No one will employ such a person. You cant
even run a blog and earn through ad-sense on H4. Neither can you work remotely
for a foreign company.

It is beyond me why such law exists in first place. People from Mexico can
jump over the fence come to US and work while the president goes out of his
way to ensure that these people can get US taxpayer's money but my wife who is
engineering graduate with over 8 years of experience working for American
companies in India can not work in US because it takes away jobs of American
people!

~~~
chimeracoder
> It is beyond me why such law exists in first place. People from Mexico can
> jump over the fence come to US and work while the president goes out of his
> way to ensure that these people can get US taxpayer's money but my wife who
> is engineering graduate with over 8 years of experience working for American
> companies in India can not work in US because it takes away jobs of American
> people!

You just answered your own question. The people "jumping the fence" (as you
put it) are often taking low-paying (even below minimum wage) jobs that US
citizens don't want, so it's less problematic politically[0].

On the other hand, there are a lot of citizens who would love whatever job
your wife would get with 8 years of engineering experience, so it's more
politically challenging to give that job to a non-citizen, even if she is
undeniably qualified for it.

[0] In fact, some industries rely on illegal immigrants and/or illegal migrant
workers as sources of labor below minimum wage (see: agriculture[1]), so they
have an incentive to enable this practice (or at least turn a blind eye),
since they _can 't_ rely on the legal resources to provide them labor at that
price.

[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reefer_Madness_%282003_book%29](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reefer_Madness_%282003_book%29)
(Don't be fooled by the title - the chapter I'm referring to is about
production of strawberries).

~~~
tn13
I agree that people generally do not understand the economic principles behind
all this and rather fall prey to the absurd arguments such as "there are fixed
number of jobs" to compete for or "some jobs Americans are not willing to do
always".

------
datacog
This proposal is ridiculous! They are offering the possibility to work after 6
years of H1B or in early phases of Green card process.

\- Their intent doesnt seem to be providing Spouses with opportunity to work,
but instead prevent dropouts of those people who get fed up of the process and
either go back home or apply for Canada PR. I know few such people myself

\- Important point: During the 4-6 years when the spouse cannot legally work,
either they have given up on their career or have already signed up for a
graduate program in order to get an F1. It is basically useless to offer jobs
to someone after 6 years of being jobless and they have very very less
competitive advantage unless they have a made a productive use of time by
doing stuff such as freelancing and pro-bono work.

\- Dependents of L1 visa (L2) are allowed to work on EAD, I dont understand
why it is so complex for H4's.

\- Another effect of this would also mean that the govt might not consider
increasing the CAP for H1B next year, but rather try to retain the exising
H1B's and try to get their green card done.

So, although this change seems optimistic, it isnt that helpful (I myself was
very excited after I first saw this)

~~~
cesarbs
> or apply for Canada PR

Just curious, can someone apply for permanent residency in Canada without
being there in the first place? If that's how it works I'll definitely
consider that option.

> unless they have a made a productive use of time by doing stuff such as
> freelancing

H-4s cannot freelance. My wife is on H-4 and we felt quite disgruntled when
our immigration attorney told us that. Basically, she can only do volunteer
work. She cannot have income from any kind of work.

~~~
e15ctr0n
Permanent residency in Canada is points-based and not petition-based like the
US. You should definitely consider it.

[http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/newcomers/about-
pr.asp](http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/newcomers/about-pr.asp)

~~~
cesarbs
Hmm, I went thought the questionnaire but I need to have had Canadian work
experience to apply for PR. Still, it seems much easier to go there and stay
permanently... From what I understand, if you work there for 2 years, you can
ask for PR, then after 5 years living there you can apply for citizenship.
Compare that to the US, where I'll probably have my Green Card in 4-5 years
and then will have to wait another 5 years until I can apply for citizenship.

------
logfromblammo
I don't understand the overt, superficial purpose of H-1B visas. If you have a
company that needs one, and a foreigner who qualifies for it, why would it not
be better for the public in every possible circumstance to just grant that
foreign person an unconditional work visa and automatically enroll them for
consideration for permanent residency?

And then I put my foil hat on, and the voices tell me that the H-1B program
must not be for the benefit of the public, and that both the American workers
and the foreigners with visas are being exploited for the benefit of the
corporate sponsors.

The only benefit I see here to essentially doubling the number of available
guest workers under H-1B is that the affected spouses are free to change
employers and to quit from unsuitable employment without being deported. That
makes them better off than the person that actually has the sponsorship!

~~~
refurb
The reason for the temporary nature of H1-Bs is that it's an attempt to
provide a responsive immigration policy. Just because you can't find a US
citizen to fill a role _now_ , doesn't mean that 10 years from now you won't
be.

If 10 years from now a pool of qualified US workers becomes available, the
H1-B approval would need to be repeated, the labor certification would fail
and the immigrant would not be allowed to fill the role.

I'm certainly not saying it's the best way to handle it, but that's the logic
behind the current rules.

~~~
logfromblammo
If you make the worker a citizen, you can be absolutely certain that a citizen
can fill the role, both now and ten years in the future.

Otherwise, you are finding a different person to fill the role in ten years,
and that person will be competing with someone in a foreign country that has
10 more years of experience.

~~~
refurb
And if you make the worker a citizen and the industry crashes, you've got
another person on social assistance. If they are on a non-immigrant visa, you
send them home.

~~~
shas3
Foreign nonimmigrant workers should be as eligible for social assistance as
anyone else. H1B workers pay almost exactly the same federal, state, and local
taxes as citizens and permanent residents. In general, restrictive visa rules
are a form of protectionism, where the government arbitrarily assigns
financial benefits and unequal opportunities in favor of citizens.

[edit: wrong usage of 'immigrants', changed to 'nonimmigrant']

~~~
prodigal_erik
Over a billion people out there live on less than 2 USD/day. Protectionism is
the only force sparing us from an existence like that. Dividing the world's
resources fairly would result in universal grinding poverty rather than
luxuries like the Internet.

~~~
logfromblammo
That's 2 non sequiturs in three sentences. The reason why people live in
grinding poverty is because they are, for a stunningly wide variety of
reasons, unable to accumulate capital and bring their own resources to market.
If you divide resources fairly today, they will be back to poverty tomorrow,
because the very same people will take the distributed resources away from
them that currently take their savings opportunities.

Besides that, the flip side of your argument is that protectionism is the only
force keeping poor people from becoming rich. Economics is not a zero-sum
game. It is far more complex than you portray.

~~~
prodigal_erik
Scarcity itself is the force keeping all the poor from becoming rich. The
resources to do that simply don't exist on Earth no matter how we might spread
them around. Technology is a multiplier but it doesn't run on nothing. Hell,
they can only eat until the oil to make fertilizer is gone.

------
tnb234
As a married guy in the process of getting my H-1B visa I have to say this is
a relief. It's a first step towards a more open immigration policy [1]. [1]
[http://www.iamimmigration.org/index.html#/get-
facts/](http://www.iamimmigration.org/index.html#/get-facts/)

~~~
a8da6b0c91d
America does not need a more open immigration policy. America needs an
immediate full immigration moratorium, lasting at least five years, while we
set about fixing the system. [http://vdare.com/articles/the-economic-case-for-
an-immigrati...](http://vdare.com/articles/the-economic-case-for-an-
immigration-moratorium)

~~~
bruceb
I would say that immigration is complex. Also there are clear differences in
what different types of immigrants bring to the US. Clearly immigration helps
some and hurts some. For some low wage workers clearly bringing in more low
skilled and semi skilled works does hurt them. That being said grabbing the
cream of the crop from around the world is mostly good for the US.

~~~
Roboprog
Problem is, H-1B is little more than an indentured servant program. If we were
immigrating only the best and brightest, as free men (women), that would be a
bit different.

~~~
bruceb
Those who come here on H-1B can transfer companies now. Giving them more power
than they had in the past.

~~~
enraged_camel
Changing jobs while on H1B is a massive -- _massive_ \-- pain in the ass. You
need to basically find a company who wants to deal with the headache and the
legal expenses, and hope that USCIS accepts your transfer. This significantly
limits a visa-holder's choices in terms of employment. Startups are pretty
much out of the question, and most medium-sized companies as well, unless
you're well-known in your field.

------
psuter
I love how these "proposals to attract and retain highly skilled immigrants"
do not cover O-1 holders, the "individuals with extraordinary ability or
achievement".

(I'm guessing because O-1 visas are not dual-intent.)

In any case, certainly a step in the right direction.

~~~
technotony
Actually they do. The last paragraph says that they are making EB1 visas
(which is the green card version of the O1) easier to get: Another revision
announced Tuesday will ease requirements for applicants of an EB-1 work visa,
which is issued to researchers and professors with extraordinary ability. To
qualify, applicants for the visas currently must submit awards, scholarly
articles and a host of evidence to prove their outstanding recognition in and
contribution to a particular field. The new rule will allow applicants to
present comparable evidence that is acceptable, the official said.

For entrepreneurs this is the most exciting development in these proposals as
it should make the path to getting a green card easier.

------
makmanalp
It's good news that change is happening. The bad news is that it's only after
6 years of residence:
[http://lofgren.house.gov/news/documentsingle.aspx?DocumentID...](http://lofgren.house.gov/news/documentsingle.aspx?DocumentID=379143)

~~~
tsenkov
I don't get it... In the original article it says:

>"Spouses of H-1B visa holders being sponsored for a green card by their
employers will be allowed to work in the U.S."

If you are "being" sponsored, this means you are "in the process", not after
you got the green card. As much as I know, a company can sponsor H1-B holders
right from the start of their contract (although, probably not all of them do
so) for getting a green card.

Either this statement from the original post is wrong, OR the interpretation
in the house.gov is wrong, OR I'm missing something (probably & most-likely).

Does anyone have a clear answer?

~~~
hpagey
Technically speaking H1b process and green card are two separate things. A
company can sponsor for green card without sponsoring H1b. But, this is how
the process typically works,

Step 1) Company sponsors H1b Step 2) Employee works at the company for say
like a year Step 3) Company starts the green card process and files labor.
Step 4) Labor is approved and employee receives a priority date. Step 5)
Company applies for i-140 . Step 6) i-140 is approved and priority date is now
set. Step 7) Employee keeps on renewing H1b until priority date becomes
current. Step 8) When priority date becomes current, employee along with its
dependents can apply for i-485 Adjustment of status. Step 9) Employee and its
dependents received EAD cards and Advance payroll ( for traveling purpose.
Step 10) USCIS starts processing i-485 applications (each dependent gets its
own application) and starts adjucating them. Step 11) USCIS asks for Visa
number once adjucation is done. Each dependent needs its own visa number. Step
12) If visa number is available when its requested green card is issue, else
application remains pending until visa numbers become available.

Now, the above mentioned rule will allow spouses to obtain work authorization
from Step 6. Previously, they had to wait till Step 8 to obtain it.

~~~
hibikir
It's advance parole, not advance payroll, and that has to be renewed yearly,
but other than that, it's accurate.

A detail people might miss is that some of those steps take forever, yet tend
to have an extremely high success rate. For instance, I was hit by one of
those times where priority dates moved back, so I spent about 4 years with my
status being 'Applicant for adjustment of status'. I was not going to get
denied, but I couldn't get approved either.

If, through magic, there were no limits on visa numbers, the only thing that
would stop about a million people to be given a green card overnight is
manpower. They all qualify. They all are living in the US, and probably will
continue doing so forever barring something terrible happening to their
companies, but they are not officially permanent residents.

This also slows down citizenship too. You can apply for it after 5 years as a
permanent resident. I've been living in the US, legally and without
interruptions, since 1997, but I won't have my five years of permanent
residency until 2017.

~~~
hpagey
ya my bad, its parole. Also, you might not have to renew yearly. USCIS might
give the applicant 2 year EAD/AP combo card instead of the yearly paper AP.

------
sytelus
This is the fix for one of the two fundamental issues with H1B. The second
issue is that H1B is tied to employer and you can't switch employer unless
receiving side agrees to do brunt work of legal "transfer". This gives
employers unchecked power to exploit H1B workers. The way this happens is
employer - typically a "consulting agency" \- takes cut from all payments so
H1B salary is just above the minimum required. This issue allowed
proliferation of mom & pop shops that would literally import people from
places like India and Pakistan by dozens. With cuts of size $40K per person
they would rack up millions of dollars doing absolutely nothing but sponsoring
H1Bs and running the shop literally in their pajamas from their home.

For the first issue of spouses not able to work, I've heard several horror
stories where spouse has medical or engineering degree but is forced to sit at
home doing nothing. The situation, as I recall, wasn't too bad however because
such spouses eventually went on to get F1 visa for studies or H1B themselves
so they can work. However path to that was extraordinarily tedious littered
with lots of legal issues.

I really like UK's work permit system comparatively. It allows to work
anywhere in UK once you get permit and avoids employer exploitation. It
automatically grants spauces also permission to work. In addition, if you live
in UK on work permit for 4 years with paying taxes then you are automatically
eligible for permanent residence. As sad it is, UK has taken much more freedom
oriented approach for immigrants than US for years.

------
wittgenstein
I haven't witnessed a process that is more stupid and bureaucratic as the
H-1B-to-permanent-residence application process. The full thing is based on
farce and it makes no sense whatsoever. I still cannot conceive how going
through this process can be the law.

------
dang
We changed the url from [1] since the paywall is a notch lower.

1\.
[http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB1000142405270230341710...](http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052702303417104579544550269535992)

------
vijayr
Paywall :(

[http://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/news/news-
wire/2014/...](http://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/news/news-
wire/2014/05/06/should-spouses-of-h-1b-visa-holders-be-allowed-to.html)

~~~
alexhektor
google the headline. WSJ paywall has been discussed here as well for further
information.

------
bsder
Just give people a Green Card after 12 months on an H-1B and a bunch of these
problems all go away.

This is so tiresome. All so a bunch of companies can import wage slaves to
depress tech salaries.

------
Velox
Anyone want to explain what this is? It's a paywall and I'm not american so
there is no way I'm paying for a subscription to it.

~~~
whitenoise
The DHS press release[1] has more details. Link to the proposed rule on
reginfo.gov[2].

In short, this rule allows spouses of H1B holders to work, provided the H1B
holder has an approved I-140 or has their H1B extended beyond 6 year limit
under AC21. Notice that this rule is very specific and does not cover all H1B
holders.

[1][http://www.dhs.gov/news/2014/05/06/dhs-announces-
proposals-a...](http://www.dhs.gov/news/2014/05/06/dhs-announces-proposals-
attract-and-retain-highly-skilled-immigrants)
[2][http://www.reginfo.gov/public/do/eAgendaViewRule?pubId=20131...](http://www.reginfo.gov/public/do/eAgendaViewRule?pubId=201310&RIN=1615-AB92)

EDIT: Grammer

~~~
dominotw
>Notice that this rule is very specific and does not cover all H1B holders.

Lot of people seem to miss this important point.

------
diogenescynic
I've got to add my experience to this:

The problem with H-1Bs is the vast majority of them are abusing the system.
I've seen it firsthand working at one of the top four global immigration law
firms. Most H-1Bs are gaming the system. They lie about their title,
experience, and work location to get a lower prevailing wage. For example,
they say they are going to work in Iowa and then work in Boston and on and on.
Most (over 80%) of the H-1s go to outsourcing companies like Cognizant, Tata
(TCS), Infosys, Symphony etc. Their entire business model is based on the fact
that it will be cheaper to obtain and H-1 than to hire locally. This is
fundamentally fucked up. Most H-1s are coming from diploma mills or have no
education at all and use 'experience evaluations' which are another rubber
stamp service. It's not truly high-skilled labor. If they were high-skilled
they'd just apply as an O-1 applicant. H-1s are effectively apprentice
engineers. They usually do not have any specialization--so why are they
needed? To keep wages flat. It's a corporate handout. Look at how STEM
salaries have stagnated: [http://spectrum.ieee.org/at-work/education/the-stem-
crisis-i...](http://spectrum.ieee.org/at-work/education/the-stem-crisis-is-a-
myth)

But really, H-1s aren't nearly as bad as the L-1s. L-1s have no prevailing
wage and no education requirements. Fortune500s bring over L-1s and keep them
on foreign payroll (for up to 6 years) and then can send them abroad for a
year and bring them back for another 6. I've seen L-1s coming to work for
major oil companies where the applicant has 20 years of experience and a
Master's degree--making $15,000/year.

The problem with freedom of labour and open borders is that it's usually just
one way. How many Americans are going to work abroad in India? How many
Canadians are going to work in China? It's feel-good rhetoric but ultimately
it's just an excuse to flood richer nations with workers from poorer nations.
I'd be all for this system if there was some kind of tit-for-tat program where
India gets as many visas given to them as they give to us proportionally--but
it will never happen. If STEM and engineers are so in demand why have their
wages stagnated? Why has the average income actually dropped in Silicon
Valley? There's a disconnect in what they claim is happening and what is
really happening.

The other problem I see with H-1Bs is the way they connect to Green
Card/Permanent Residency. Once you file your I-140, you can stay on your H-1
indefinitely. Your H-1 doesn't have to match your I-140 either, so you can be
employed as something lowly like Customer Support Engineer and then file the
I-140 for a "Senior Data Scientist" or whatever and then drag out the Green
Card process to keep their prevailing wage down. Oh and guess what? The
companies and the law firms coordinate to do this. Why? Because once the I-140
is filed the employee is locked into that company and they can hold the Green
Card out as a carrot and get a loyal obedient worker. It's a sick exploitive
system. It's bad for everyone but the corporate executives who are getting a
bonus for meeting their budgets.

Moreover, corporations also coordinate mass-layoffs and filing for Green
Cards. They will file for hundreds, sometimes thousands of Green Cards, then
wait to announce the layoffs once the I-140s are filed. If they did it the
reverse they wouldn't be allowed to file for the I-140s. I saw this happen
monthly in the Silicon Valley.

However, I have also seen H-1Bs be used to bring over employees from companies
that were acquired abroad for reallly smart people making unique products or
some kind of breakthrough technology. Those are totally legitimate uses of the
program. Those aren't the problems. The thing the government needs to learn is
that anything that is available to companies that has a monetary reward for
telling "white lies" to the government and depends on the companies "being
honest" let alone understanding or agreeing with the overarching intent of the
legislation -- is going to have the absolute shit abused out of it eventually.

~~~
harichinnan
1\. Most H1B's get higher pay than the H1B application wage. This happens in
consulting jobs and is to ensure that you don't have to get deported because
your annual income fell short of the absolute minimum in case you took a
prolonged vacation back home. And the prevailing wage is determined by DOL.
Not by the employer or the lawyer. If you compare the H1B prevaling wage with
your own, most of the time yours would be higher. But that doesn't mean you
are getting more pay than the H1B employee. Most H1B's atleast have an
engineering degree. Getting through a degree course is no lauging matter
anywhere in the world. Vast majority of US employees don't have any formal
education. End of the day, companies interview H1B employees just like they
interview you with puzzles and white board tests and github code reviews.
Nobody, not even Infosys and Wipro employees get a free ride.

2\. Same case for L1. They have degrees in addition to work experience. Nobody
makes 15K in US on L1. That's just a lie. I used to make 15K USD back in
Chennai, India. Not many people would make the trip to US for 15K.

3\. Americans don't work abroad in India. Americans work for Indian companies
here in US. Every time an Indian airliner buys Boeing over Airbus and
everytime a US arms manufacturer gets a deal over the Russian or European
companies, the Indian companies employ Americans. It's a trade off mostly in
America's favor. Indians export technology and Americans export finished
goods. Consumers of raw technology always gains in this trade.

4\. The problem with GC is not because the H1B's abuse it. But because US has
a stupid immigration policy where they equate India or China with a billion
people to say Kuwait or Vatican and give equals quotas per country. If this is
fixed, the applications would get quickly processed and the wrongful
applications would be denied.

5\. Mass layoffs with simultaneous I-140 filings... Getting someone a Green
Card would cost upwards of 15K. And they don't exactly come cheap. green Cards
usually have higher wage requirements. Also I-140 holder can switch an
employer after 6 months. Nothing chains them to the employer.

~~~
diogenescynic
1\. An awful lot of tech workers make under $40k, even under $30k. The average
H-1B salary is roughly $70,000. There's a smaller percent at the top-end that
skew the average up. The vast majority of the H-1Bs I saw were making
$50,000-$65,000.

I think you misunderstand the process. First, the DOL sets the prevailing
wages, but the employers choose what location, title, and experience level to
apply under. Check this out:
[http://flcdatacenter.com/CaseH1B.aspx](http://flcdatacenter.com/CaseH1B.aspx)
Play around with it and see what you find.

Now, say you're a company and you have multiple locations. You apply for the
employee at the cheapest location, then pick a title that will get a lower
prevailing wage, and say they are entry level when really they have 5 years of
experience. So the prevailing wage determination is skewed. This is what I
mean about telling a white lie. Anything that is available to companies that
has a monetary reward for telling "white lies" to the government and depends
on the companies "being honest" let alone understanding or agreeing with the
overarching intent of the legislation -- is going to have the absolute shit
abused out of it eventually.

If a Software Engineer gets a higher prevailing wage than a Software Developer
(or vice versa) according to the DOL. Which title do you think the employer
will pick to apply under?

2\. I've seen multiple cases filed for L-1s around $15,000 and many more for
around $25,000-$28,000. The L-1s get around the prevailing wage requirements
by companies providing corporate housing and ammenities and meals at work. I
worked on thousands of cases, so I am going to believe my sample size is more
representative than your anecdotal experience.

3\. This is an intellectually dishonest argument. Trading goods is not the
same thing as employment. Stop trying to conflate them. And even still,
following your argument Americans are still 'employing' millions in India via
imported goods. It's still completely one-sided.

4\. I disagree, I don't think India and China should get preferential
treatment for having a larger population. That's ridiculous.

5\. Again, I've seen this happen many times. The bitter truth H-1s appeal to
employers because employers see them as exploitable, cheaper, and more
ignorant of local labour customs and laws.

------
grumpypants666
"Fred Humphries, a vice president at Microsoft, one of the biggest users of
H-1B visas, said they would have “a positive economic impact.”

He continued, under his breath, "Because Microsoft wouldn't have to pay
prevailing wage to even more engineers".

Look - if you're outside the US you can ignore this comment but for those of
us in the US, this is a screw job.

Most H-1Bs are used to import cheap - ridiculously cheap - labor and displace
middle class workers. Period. There are almost always people in the US that
can do the work but not at the wage that the Msoft or whomever would like to
pay. The "we can't find qualified workers" bullshit is just that.

As if the collusion to suppress wages wasn't bad enough...

~~~
gdc
Of course, you can cite a credible source that Microsoft is paying H1-B's
below prevailing wage?

------
lmg643
It sounds perverse to say this, but the first thought I have is all the
marriages that will be specifically arranged to take advantage of this. Seems
like a clever loophole to increase the number of visas, while casting it as a
benevolent change that makes it easier to retain talent.

I'm not a big fan of letting employers make immigration decisions. There's too
much of an incentive to try to get low cost labor, which subsidizes stupid
business practices. Sure, employers could invest in automation and smarter
operating procedures, or we can just plug the hole as cheaply as possible.

H1Bs are unlikely to be big entrepreneurial catalysts because they are
effectively tied to their employer and in a tricky legal framework. Honestly -
I thought that was the whole point of the visa. And not to too much of a snob
here, but the three immigrants mentioned in the Fortune 500 were all graduates
of elite american universities (Andy Grove - Berkeley, Jerry Yang, Sergey -
Stanford), which proves mostly nothing about the visa program.

I think a much better policy for America is to allow the top 50-100
universities by US News to determine who is qualified to enter. those measures
are not perfect, but it is rate-limited by the size of their degree programs
and they have an incentive to keep the quality of admitted applicants high.

~~~
shas3
In the current H1B system, it doesn't matter if the applicant is from an elite
US university. If you have to work in the US, and if you are not a permanent
resident or US citizen, you go through, for the most part, the exact same H1B
system as everyone else.

The only difference is, if you have a masters or higher degree, your H1B visa
processing is done through a separate quota.

In today's system, unless you are a PhD with many publications in prestigious
conferences/journals, etc., straight out of college (i.e., BS or MS),
permanent residency is a long and highly bureaucratic process for most
applicants. So essentially, your spouse cannot work till you get a green card.
Here is an interesting story about an early Google employee highlighting this
problem:
[http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/12/business/12immig.html?page...](http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/12/business/12immig.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0)

Also, in 2014, people are not as desperate to live and work in the US as you
think, to arrange marriages for this sole purpose. Further, this rule-change
applies to that subset of H1B workers who are on track to get green cards.

Employment-based green cards could take even 10 years to be processed because
of purely administrative and bureaucratic delays.

Besides, the H1B workers affected by this rule are usually highly skilled and
are likely to have similar quality of life if they lived and worked in their
home country. When you take this into account, the loophole-theory that you
talk about jumps into the realm of paranoid conspiracy theory.

(IANAL)

~~~
lmg643
I like the early Google employee example - of course, let's cherry pick the
best-of-the-best, and just assume everyone in the sample is of that caliber.

I am fine with citizenship or automatic green cards for accepted Harvard
students. That's a pretty prestigious designation and very hard to obtain.
Harvard does not give out slots lightly. However, there are a lot of degree
granting institutions in the US with lower standards, such that I don't think
all universities should have that privilege.

I have worked with dozens of H1B employees. It's really stupid to ask - since
they are here working - but it occasionally is discussed whether they would
consider going home. I think the answer is usually - maybe - when I'm ready to
retire.

The opportunities here are still "on average" better - and it's not just "the
economy" \- infrastructure, rule of law, space-to-people ratio, etc.

~~~
shas3
Your accusation of cherry-picking is disingenuous.

It is just this: in the current system, there is no way of rewarding merit.
That NY Times example is one data point. A second one is this, from Newsweek:
[https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:88OoGN...](https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:88OoGNMeneUJ:www.newsweek.com/story-
one-mans-immigration-ordeal-66537+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us) .

The USCIS has decided that one measure of the 'worthiness' or 'best-of-the-
best'ness is workers who are valuable enough for a company to be applying for
the green-card on their behalf.

The best-of-the-best, the talented workers (whether they are from Harvard or
No-name Indian Engineering Institute- is immaterial) are put in the same pile
as the 'mass-H1Bs'. This is a problem that is inherent to complex irrational
bureaucracies like the American immigration system.

I don't see how you can classify people based on which university they go to.
A person may be talented in spite of the university they go to, and this is a
question that a company or a VC has to answer.

So what if H1B workers intend on staying in the US? It is the individual's
choice. If you want to go deeper into the question of 'who deserves H1Bs', you
need to answer question scuh as, what is the purpose of nationality? Why is an
American citizen more eligible to work in the US, than say, a Chinese or an
Indian citizen? Is there something superior about 'American'ness? Is it
because the domicile's parents and grandparents paid taxes? But what makes the
domicile entitled to the fruits of the labors of their parents and
grandparents? And so on.

~~~
jquery
> Why is an American citizen more eligible to work in the US, than say, a
> Chinese or an Indian citizen?

Because the American government exists to serve Americans. It's not fair and
it's not supposed to be. How easily we forget this in our pampered American
existence. Ask yourself if the Indian or Chinese government is asking what's
best for American citizens.

~~~
shas3
> Because the American government exists to serve Americans. It's not fair and
> it's not supposed to be.

You miss the point that the definition of 'American' is quite arbitrary. It is
'fair' in the sense that it is a sort of 'Nash equilibrium'. Since around WW2,
'citizenship' has been based on a set of arbitrary norms [1]. You can become
an American by just being born here, when your Indian or Chinese parents were
visiting New York City for vacation. You can become an American by working
here for 20 years, getting a green card, and then becoming naturalized. You
could also become an American citizen in other ways. Further, America has a
higher bar than Canada, and Switzerland has a higher bar for citizenship than
America. There is nothing innately patriotic or 'American' about it. Until
1952, Asians and Asian Indians were barred from citizenship. Until civil
rights laws of 1965, immigration was based on quotas[2].

[1] Steven Pinker, 'The Better Angels of Our Nature: Why Violence Has
Declined,' Viking Books, 2011 [2]
[http://www.umass.edu/complit/aclanet/USMigrat.html](http://www.umass.edu/complit/aclanet/USMigrat.html)

