
Epic Games Sues YouTuber 'Golden Modz' Over 'Magical' Fortnite Powers - aravindhsriram
https://torrentfreak.com/epic-games-sues-youtuber-golden-modz-over-magical-fortnite-powers-181012/
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msandford
It seems pretty strange that they can do this. How does copyright even apply
here, other than for the defendant? If I buy a book, I now own the artifact
100% and the first sale doctrine would tend to indicate that nobody else can
tell me what to do with that book (with the caveat that I can't make more
copies - the whole point of copyright).

So these folks bought a book and have figured out how to cut out a page and
glue in another one. Seems totally OK.

Now they're selling a kit that helps you "mod" your book by teaching you how
to cut out a page and replace it with another one. Still no problems IMO.

Could someone prevent you from running a service where someone mails you a
book, you cut out some pages and replace them, and then mail it back? I don't
think so.

These aren't great analogies obviously. But it's hard to understand how they
have standing given that they sold the copies of the game already. Seems like
they'd have better luck going on some kind of contractual violation like their
EULA or their agreement you have to subject yourself to in order to connect to
the game servers.

~~~
makecheck
It probably has something to do with the investment that would be required if
the original item didn’t exist.

Suppose it costs you 10 million dollars to make product X, and you are able to
make that money back barely (say 11 million). Then, someone else comes along
and builds something quickly on _top_ of your expensive investment and is able
to make 5 million of their own. Wouldn’t you be mad? They’ve essentially found
a low-effort way to make returns without taking any of the risk you did.
_Without_ you, they wouldn’t be able to do what they did unless they came up
with the whole original item on their own and _then_ built on top of it.
Therefore, in essence they are profiting off of your investment.

The law may be significantly more complex and nuanced than this but it’s not
hard at all to imagine scenarios where the original producer of a product
_does not_ want to enable profits of spin-offs from their work.

Edit: This is one reason patents exist. You are allowed to protect your
massive investment for a period of time, no matter how much society may
benefit from building on it immediately.

~~~
gdhbcc
That argument never made sense. If a farmer sells some rice to someone else,
who then turns around and sells it for profit, the farmer doesnt get to
dictate what the trader can do with the rice.

Copyright has no legitimate economic or technological grounds.

~~~
weberc2
Copyright refers to copying an innovation. First sale refers to reselling a
product. You’re conflating the two.

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Nican
Putting the lawsuit under "Copyright infringement" is a strange choice, but I
have to agree that fighting cheaters in video games is a good fight.

In one hand, the user should have ownership of their computer, and what
happens in it. The user should not be prevented from testing and modifying
whatever occurs in their memory, in the same way, I can load Adblock, or
Reddit Enhancement Suit, to make my experience on a website better.

On the other hand, online gaming has become a sport. Having cheaters in-game
is almost like bicycle racers using enchantment drugs for a competition. I
would hate to lose a bicycle race for having another athlete using illegal
unhealthy drugs, as I would have to lose an online game for other players
paying hundreds of dollars for a significant unfair advantage.

For me, there should be a new kind of law that would cover gaming cheating
behavior under unfair gameplay. Users are detracting from the experience from
the other players, who are playing the game on an even playing ground.

I find GTV 5's strategy particular interesting, that instead of banning
cheaters in online servers from playing, they just moved players to a
"cheaters pool," in which cheaters can play with other cheaters. It still
allows everyone to play the game, but now they are put up against other
players who also have an unfair advantage, and have to compete for a better
strategy.

~~~
marak830
The problem with that is, where would you law draw the line?

My main software is a digital copilot for starcitizen.

It does voice control, screen verlay and eventual screen grabs to load states.
It perfrms nothing a skilled pilot cannot do, but makes it so almost anyone
can match with those skilled pilots. Is it considered cheating when it makes
me a much better pilot, faster reaction speeds and easily performing difficult
movements?

What about my testers why are physically challenged in some way? There's no
way they could keep up without my software, but I can understand the arguments
that a pilot of equal skill vs one with my software will be at a large
disadvantage.

It's a difficult thing to codify into law I believe.

~~~
Nican
Would you be alright if the game publishers can publish guidelines for what is
acceptable?

Much like StarCraft, I think there would be interesting competitions and
challenges for people to develop AI for the game. There could also be
challenges for games in developing better interfaces, helpers, and plugins.

~~~
marak830
Hell yeah, i have written so many emails to CIG (who run star citizen) trying
to find out whats acceptable and what isnt (eg: i can let a pilot lock up 3-4
missiles by saying 'lock 3' but i cant let them lock up all missiles by just
saying 'lock missiles'), is such a pain in the arse. Most of the time i end up
speaking to someone who doesnt really know and just chooses the safest option.

Which honestly is what probably would happen from guidelines (sigh) - which
will put me and my users back to where we were :P

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skylark
This reminds me of a court case a decade ago when Blizzard sued the creator of
a popular World of Warcraft botting program called MMOGlider on the grounds of
copyright infringement. Blizzard won and was awarded $6m. Not a lawyer, but
maybe there's some legal precedent?

[http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/7645059.stm](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/7645059.stm)

~~~
icebraining
That may help Golden Modz - in the appeal, the Ninth Circuit said it wasn't
copyright infringement:

 _Were we to hold otherwise, Blizzard  or any software copyright holder 
could designate any disfavored conduct during software use as copyright
infringement, by purporting to condition the license on the player 's
abstention from the disfavored conduct. The rationale would be that because
the conduct occurs while the player's computer is copying the software code
into RAM in order for it to run, the violation is copyright infringement. This
would allow software copyright owners far greater rights than Congress has
generally conferred on copyright owners._

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dxhdr
Good for Epic. Distributing hacks like this actively harms the game experience
for everyone else and damages Epic's brand and business. It's not so
dissimilar from DDoSing a SaaS company and encouraging others to do the same.

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koboll
"Copyright infringement" maybe should stick if they hacks include
reproductions of Epic's code, but "breach of contract and tortious
interference" is a load of horse shit. Game EULAs are not the law.

~~~
simion314
I agree if they distribute modified binaries then the copyright could apply,
IMO creating the trainer/cheat program or instructions on how to cheat should
be perfectly legal, the cheating though may breach the TOS but that would just
terminate your license so your account should be banned from online mode, the
only way Epic could win this if they distribute the modified binaries instead
of some binary that injects itself into the original one.

~~~
shittyadmin
MMOGlider basically lost because they said it "copies parts of the game's
memory while running"... copyright laws in this way are a load of horseshit. I
own my CPU, my RAM and my disk and I have every right to control your code if
it runs on my computer.

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xae342
Wow, he’s selling the cheats for nearly $300, that’s not exactly a kid with a
lemonade stand.

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TheAceOfHearts
I'm a bit perplexed anyone would pay that much money just to cheat in a
videogame. What's the point? Are they just really sore losers with too much
money? Do they get any money back from cheating?

~~~
weliketocode
I think it's similar to any other discretionary product where people pay for
after market accessories or additional add-on real and cosmetic features.

People pay $$$'s to mod their sports cars with additional speed but drive them
in urban areas. Or they'll add cosmetic exhausts for looks.

Gamers might want to skip levels or access advanced locked features without
investing huge amounts of time. Gamers might also enjoy the thrill of playing
the game in a way that it wasn't meant to - with hacks or cheats.

~~~
thrower123
I do lament the seeming death of single-player cheat codes. It was a lot of
fun screwing around with invulnerability or noclip mode turned on, or some of
the weird easter eggs that were included in games like Age of Empires. In
single player, the only person you're cheating is yourself, and if I want to
bypass some sucky level or fiddly puzzle, where is the harm in that?

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tootahe45
Does client-injection count as modifying Epic's code?. I'm impressed with how
well this guy has monetized all of his channels by selling this stuff.

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zbentley
The title is quite deceptive (not HN's fault, but I guess I shouldn't be
surprised given TorrentFreak's calibre).

'Magical' powers = he was selling cheats.

That is not a comment on the substance of Epic's claims against these people;
just on the clickbaity phrasing.

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hiccuphippo
Can't they just fix their game to make the cheats stop working? I'm sure many
of his customers would be mad at him for this.

~~~
lvturner
Epic stop the cheats working, within 24hrs he has them working again. It’s a
continual game of cat and mouse, and a kid over summer has way more disposable
time than your average game developer. Eventually you can get to a stage where
you make it too hard for some of the hacks to work - and then they just find
another route.

You can sometimes make a valid copyright claim if they are using your game
logos in their advertising, but unless you have the budget of Epic it’s pretty
hard to even get an effectual site or YouTube video/channel take down.

Realistically a developer has little alternative than to attempt both code
fixes and social ones - once a game has a reputation for being full of hackers
it can quickly become the end of it (though again, probably less of a concern
for Fortnite due to its scale and popularity)

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JoshuaAshton
Instead of going after the cheaters/cheat makers, maybe they should have
better cheat detection and harsher punishments.

~~~
talltimtom
They can do both. There is aboaolutely no reason not to go after the cheat
makers just because they are so improving anti cheat.

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nickthemagicman
They should be giving bug bounties instead!

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snarfy
It's not a bug when the mod alters the binary.

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Vendan
It is a bug when the server trusts the client, for exactly this reason.

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nickthemagicman
Mmo games actually trust the client?

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Thaxll
Of course they do, since it's impossible to verify everything service side.

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Vendan
It's generally simpler to do everything server side then it is to try to keep
x clients synchronized in their simulations of everything (physics, random
number generation, multiple players all contributing movement and such)

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rukittenme
Suing teenage brats is not an appropriate use of our legal system. I'm not
sure of the policy implications but if someone brings an obviously frivolous
suit they should pay a large fine. The legal system is being used to bully
rather than dispense justice.

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tomc1985
What would you rather people do to them then? Brats need to be put in their
place.

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rukittenme
This comes as a surprise to some but _sometimes_ you can't put people in
"their place". You just have to accept that some people are assholes. You can
try to mitigate their behavior but you have no right to legal recourse.

~~~
tomc1985
That's exactly the attitude that lets assholes get away with what they do

