
Dissecting a Case of Imposter Syndrome - KentBeck
https://www.facebook.com/notes/kent-beck/dissecting-a-case-of-imposter-syndrome/1354462464586614
======
ggambetta
I've given this a lot of thought. I went through this at Google, and in fact
it was one of the things that prevented me from having a more "illustrious"
career there (entirely my fault, not Google's).

I felt that I was surrounded by people far smarter and more knowledgeable than
me. All the time. My team [1] had amazing machine learning experts, C++ gurus,
and so on. I felt inadequate. This hurt my career progression (mostly because
of self-doubt) and my general happiness in life.

Until I got my hands on this very interesting project that involved designing
an instruction set for a custom CPU, implementing a VM, a code generator for
the instruction set, a server that did all this on the fly, and some
infrastructure around the whole thing. I have written CPU emulators in the
past for fun [2], so this was not particularly challenging - it felt like a
really exciting project to work on, but at all times I was confident in what I
was doing.

Then one of my teammates, whom I really looked up to, asked me how had I
pulled that off. She was in awe, amazed - exactly how I felt about _her_
incredible machine learning antics!

And that's when I understood why I had impostor syndrome, and so did so many
people at Google: Google hires really good engineers, but it hires them from
very different backgrounds. So you're likely to be surrounded by people who
make things you consider impossible black magic seem easy, but crucially, you
don't notice that the things that feel easy to yourself are seen _by them_ as
impossible black magic!

Understanding this actually let me get over my impostor syndrome pretty much
entirely. I later left Google to join Improbable and had a fresh start, which
I used to consciously avoid falling back into these negative patterns.
Although I'm surrounded by the smartest people I've ever worked with, to the
point where I still ask myself _" how the hell did I manage to get here?"_
from time to time, I've largely succeded in avoiding falling in the impostor
syndrome trap again :)

[1]: [https://googleblog.blogspot.co.uk/2013/02/an-update-on-
our-w...](https://googleblog.blogspot.co.uk/2013/02/an-update-on-our-war-
against-account.html) [2]:
[http://gabrielgambetta.com/remakes.html](http://gabrielgambetta.com/remakes.html)
[3]: [http://improbable.io](http://improbable.io)

~~~
1_2__3
> entirely my fault, not Google's

No. Do not do this to yourself. Google is all about making you think that your
job as an employee is to only solve billion dollar problems and everything
else is failure. You are constantly told you need to do more, work faster, be
better... But also you're entirely responsible for own career, and no one in
leadership is there to help you.

So no, it's not your fault. Google doesn't provide an environment for people
to succeed, and I suspect it's by design. They think they're a meritocracy,
and express that by not helping anyone.

~~~
hoorayimhelping
> _So no, it 's not your fault._

How can you possibly have the arrogance to tell a stranger that their analysis
of their own behavior is wrong based on a paragraph they wrote about themself?
GP laid out, very clearly, the insight they had in dissecting their own
imposter syndrome and found it was from an incomplete model of the world. In
your rush to slag Google and assure GP they're a good, valued person, you
seemed to completely miss their entire point, and along with it, the feeling
of success that I assume they felt after having grown personally and
professionally.

~~~
Rexxar
I think they are both wrong because they do "absolute" affirmation.

    
    
      > entirely my fault
    
      > So no, it's not your fault.
    

But each of them bring us valuable information based on a different point of
view :

1- You can decrease the imposter syndrome if you are more aware your own
strength and weakness and those of your co-workers.

2- Google's internal organisation can accentuate the imposter syndrome
problem.

Both can be true at the same time.

------
brudgers
There's nothing wrong with seeking professional mental health services for the
same reason there is nothing wrong with going to the doctor with a physical
illness. Dropping the stigma makes life easier for everyone and one way to
start is from a clinical context.

I worry about tech's focus on impostor syndrome because it is a non-clinical
diagnosis (by which I precisely mean that it is not a condition described in
the _Diagnostic and Statistcial Manual of Mental Health Disorders_ [1]). This
means that there is no accepted criteria of diagnosis and no standard protocol
for clinical treatment.

That does not mean that I think people's experiences are not valid. It does
meant that the treatment for any underlying mental health issue is more likely
to be within the same context of pop-psychology as the diagnosis. To put it
another way, impostor syndrome is not an accurate _clinical_ diagnosis.

The thing that concerns me about Beck's story is that it is based on self-
diagnosis and _only_ presents self-treatment as an option. Talking himself
through boughts of doubt seems to work for him. That may not work for the next
because everyone is different or the self diagnosis may be inaccurate or a
less constructive course of self-treatment might be the chosen out of habit.

The description of impostor syndrome, but for the individual being high
achieving, are similar to the description of low self esteem (another non
clinical diagnosis often used to describe a possible cluster of symptoms
related to the clinical diagnosis of Dysthymic Disorder[2] for individuals).

[1]:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diagnostic_and_Statistical_Man...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diagnostic_and_Statistical_Manual_of_Mental_Disorders)

[2]:
[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK64063/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK64063/)

~~~
ebiester
The trick with impostor "syndrome" is that it is specifically not a medical
condition. It is a common part of the human experience. Syndrome, taken by
itself, means "a group of symptoms that consistently occur together or a
condition characterized by a set of associated symptoms."

It doesn't have to be pathologized to be true. Syndrome may be imprecise due
to modern connotations, but it is a widely-observable condition.

What word would you use?

~~~
brudgers
I don't make diagnoses. I can imagine situations where I would encourage
seeking professional support.

~~~
johnward
There are definitely people who are suffering from a mental disorder who will
show signs of imposter syndrome. I would imagine the symptoms cross
frequently. Most what I am saying is just anecdotal from myself.

------
agumonkey
"interesting" to see a famous name talk about such things. Reminds me a lot of
my mission in a university lab. Being surrounded by PhD when you're only a
grad. will mess up with your self esteem balance.

Maybe Kent was too used to be in control, and in these situation you have
none. And you need a clear, trusted communication channel to know how to parse
things.

The analogy with music sounds odd to me. Music has this property that when
done wrong everything falls quickly apart and you will realize it on the spot.
If the vibe is still there, then to me you're doing music good enough.

I also think there are two notions being discussed here: feeling like an
imposter, and self consciousness (anxiety, overthinking, rehashing things long
after).

I wish I could just pat him on the back and tell him not to torture himself.
As he said, he didn't get there by accident. I also wonder if he talked with
colleagues at his jobs, or people in the field before writing this.

~~~
ciumonk
"Being surrounded by PhD when you're only a grad"

Same thing is happening to me, just started my PhD in one of the leading
robotics labs, and I feel like I don't belong there. It's beginning to cause
insomnia and depression, or symptoms of those.

~~~
munin
Early in my PhD I went to a big NSF event with a bunch of young researchers,
so senior students and junior faculty. This NSF event did a "speed dating"
event (quickly re-named at the last minute to "rapid fire cross collaboration"
because of the sexist connotations of calling something "speed dating," natch)
and when talking with other researchers about how I didn't feel like I
belonged, either at this event or in research in general, one said "well,
belong or not, what matters is that you are here now."

You're there now.

------
squeaky-clean
> Six years later, when my manager asks for an unexpected meeting my first
> thought is still, “That’s it. I’m fired.”

I'm coming up on 3 years at my current company. Been promoted a few times.
Given a raise every time I've asked, once even when I hadn't asked. And yet
“That’s it. I’m fired” is also my first thought when that happens. It feels
good to read that someone I respect a lot also is the same way.

------
smallgovt
It seems like a lot of anxiety issues, including this case, arise from the
following internal monologue: "I am not as good as my peers at skill A. My
peers are aware that I'm lacking in this area and judge me negatively for it."

From what I've seen (in this thread and in real life), people mostly combat
this internal monologue in a couple ways that ignore reality (at times):

Counter Belief #1) I'm not as bad at skill A as I thought. (e.g. look at all
these examples where I did well at skill A)

Problem: If the reality of the situation is that you aren't actually lacking
in skill, this works. However, if your peers legitimately outclass you, you're
just tricking yourself -- which presumably won't work for long.

Counter Belief #2) My peers are aware that I lack skill A, but are not
negatively judging me for it. (e.g. what evidence do i have that they're
judging me? they're probably just thinking about themselves all day)

Problem: This works when your peers aren't actively negatively judging you.
But, how are we to determine if that's the case? Lack of evidence isn't proof
at all -- especially in a work environment, social norms are that they won't
express negative criticism to you (even if you ask for feedback). Certainly,
there are environments where your peers ARE indeed actively negatively judging
you in which case this counter belief does not work.

What is the right way to cope in a situation where reality is: 1) you ARE
outclassed by your peers 2) your peers ARE judging you for it

One solution seems to be to get better at the skill than your peers. However,
this isn't foolproof if you don't have the resources to do so.

The more foolproof solution seems to be: 1) learn to stop comparing yourself
to your peers. your self-esteem should not depend on the relative amount of
skill you possess to your peers 2) learn to stop caring what your peers think
of you. your self-esteem should not be dependent on outward signals like this.

However, this seems REALLY hard to execute. How does one develop these sets of
beliefs? Are there other logical solutions?

~~~
ythn
> What is the right way to cope in a situation where reality is: 1) you ARE
> outclassed by your peers 2) your peers ARE judging you for it

In that case you are a little fish in a big pond. Consider moving to a smaller
pond. If no pond is too small, consider switching careers.

~~~
smallgovt
Is it too difficult to fight human nature and learn to not care about either
of these things? I haven't managed to do this, but it does seem most
foolproof.

~~~
fapjacks
Might I recommend to you the collected works of one Epictetus?

------
catpolice
The thing that's helped me deal with impostor syndrome the most is to really
internalize a couple realizations. It's less than my perception of my own
competence was too low, it's that my perception of my peers' competence and
depth of understanding was too high. Nearly everyone actually is kind of an
impostor to a certain degree. Successful people are just less bothered by it -
they let other people assume that their understanding is deeper than it
actually is. You assume people know waaaay more than you, but really they
typically know exactly enough about the subject to present that impression.

------
bitcrusher
In some sense, I believe this stems from being afraid of 'not knowing'.
Especially in the current SV culture, it's really anathema to say, "I don't
know". "Not knowing" something is frowned upon, especially as you get deeper
into your career (more senior, etc.) and it is really shameful that we have
created this atmosphere for ourselves.

Being unafraid to say, "I don't know" is a really powerful skill. Now, for me,
being surrounded by people who know more than I do, is actually a win. Now, "I
don't know" turns into "Show me". It's an opportunity to learn and to grow.

~~~
stcredzero
_Especially in the current SV culture, it 's really anathema to say, "I don't
know"._

If this is true, then current SV culture is intellectually bankrupt!

 _being surrounded by people who know more than I do, is actually a win. Now,
"I don't know" turns into "Show me"._

This is why they say, if you look around, and you're the smartest guy in the
room, then you may be in the wrong room!

~~~
bitcrusher
I agree. In a lot of ways, in the areas that I have been exposed to, SV
culture IS intellectually bankrupt. It's a sad state of affairs, honestly.

------
wsy
One thing I always have to remind myself of is that it is never a binary
decision between 'glorious' and 'ridiculous'. There is a continuum between
both, where 'great', 'good', 'sufficient', and 'could be better' are valid
self-judgements, too. Combine this with the fact that you don't need to be
'glorious' all the time, and that a fair share of 'could be better' is part of
everyday life. This helps me to keep a more realistic self-image instead of
becoming desperate in cases where I can't assert myself as being 'glorious'.

------
epalmer
> I arrived in Lagos on Saturday night. Sunday I went to church, rode on the
> back of a motorcycle (it was okay, I’d been to church)...

I had to laugh out loud at that. I'm not sure it works that way.

Thanks for the post. Its interesting to see / hear what others say about their
cause for this syndrome. I think mine goes back to my childhood. I think the
OP analysis is interesting and I would go with out any more data on the "Daddy
issues" theory.

------
lowglow
Someone just asked me this question. I'm interested in hearing how the
community deals with this. Here was my full reply:

All the time. It's just that lizard part of your brain imbuing a healthy dose
of fear. That fear is just a part of exploration and pushing yourself as a
person. I marvel at people who go through life effortlessly being seen as
"natural" or "talented" at something. But then I remember we're all the same
and perspective and optics are everything.

Managing that fear is a part of mindfulness I have yet to achieve, so I use
that fear as an indicator that I'm learning and doing something new and I'm
probably in over my head -- which I think is where good and new things come
from. I've just learned to live with it.

The real test is this: are you going to let the fear move you, or are you
going to push through it? Eventually that fear you're pushing through goes
away once your actions and thinking become habit. That's where you have a new
trap: complacency -- that's the worst fate.

------
conistonwater
I think it's a mistake to personify syndromes, and all things psychological.
It's one of those rhetorical devices that really reduces the quality of
conversation.

------
neofrommatrix
What is the difference between suffering from imposter syndrome vs. low
confidence?

~~~
nzjrs
The enjoyable feeling of self-diagnosing oneself with a syndrome!

