

Half of Milgram’s subjects told him to take a hike - gruseom
http://mondoweiss.net/2010/11/half-of-milgrams-subjects-told-him-to-take-a-hike-hallelujah.html

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GHFigs
In actuality, _all_ of his subjects resisted to some degree at some point. The
crucial point is that _most kept going_ after only a few verbal suggestions.

The transcript here is misleading. You might come away with the impression
that it was what the subject said or did that ended the experiment, but it is
actually the experimenter who halts it because the subject is still resisting
after the fourth of four specifically worded orders. The experiment does _not_
simply go on until the subject complies or walks away--they need only resist
up to a certain point for the experiment to end. Real authority figures are
not so bound.

~~~
JoeAltmaier
And these subjects had not been conditioned by years of authoritarian
leadership. These subjects were free people raised in a culture of hero-
worship of dissenters and free-thinkers.

~~~
jbooth
Speak for yourself, we may not be anywhere close to fascism, but I see a whole
lot of hero-worship of "real americans" and not a ton of most people fitting
the classic free-thinker model these days.

~~~
JoeAltmaier
...and there you are! A free-thinker, posting on a public web forum, using
(almost) their real name to suggest a view opposite to a common view.

Unthinkable in a fascist state.

~~~
jbooth
Eh, focus on the trends. Artists and scientists are the first to be demonized,
and that's happening to some degree -- probably not enough to be noteworthy or
anymore than the domestic right in any situation demonizes them, but it's
worth keeping an eye on.

If it could happen in the Germany of Liebniz, Mozart and Kant then it could
happen anywhere.

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Jach
From replication of the experiment the figure's more like just 30% refusing
after a certain point. In any case, being happy about 30% or 50% is a weird
way to see things. "Sure, at least three billion humans are willing to follow
insane orders from an authoritative figure they only know by authority (not by
actually liking them a-la Hitler or fearing them), but the rest of us aren't
quite as susceptible under these exact conditions!" It's like being happy that
only 40% of Delaware voters voted for O'Donnell.

Also, does anyone else feel like the subject's (Man Two's) lines were
scripted, or did people talk that way often back then?

Edit: replier is right, 'most insane' does not fit here.

~~~
srbloom
I guess your satisfaction with this result depends on your prediction.

Also, judging by the comments section on that site, presenting the result this
way ("50% refused" instead of "50% complied") has a significant impact on how
people respond to the result.

~~~
wisty
Brilliant observation. People respond very differently to the same fundamental
numbers if you present them differently.

------
dantheman
Here's a link to a video from 1972 of the experiment:

1\. <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t2PGnHHnRMk0>

2\.
[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tzYAdGl_0mA&feature=relat...](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tzYAdGl_0mA&feature=related)

3\.
[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KSiMM_GIiyA&feature=relat...](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KSiMM_GIiyA&feature=related)

In total it's about 45 minutes long.

Here's the part from the transcript on that site:
<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t2PGnHHnRMk#t=10m0s>

~~~
michael_dorfman
That last link was absolutely amazing to watch.

I highly recommend that those who have read the OP take a look.

------
btn
The results are a bit more involved than that:

* 65% administered the (maximum) 450 volt shock

* All participants questioned the experiment at one point

* None of them backed out until the 300 volt level (over halfway), when the learner started to bang on the wall.

~~~
jeroen
The last link in <http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1881668> is the video
that goes with the transcript in the article. The shock that is administered
is 150V, which means that at least one participant (this one) did back out
before the 300V level.

~~~
btn
Wikipedia reports that too, but the original paper reports that nobody stopped
before 300 volts and that there was no feedback from the victim until that
level. I'm not sure why there's a discrepancy.

~~~
mfukar
Possibly because there's a subtle but definite difference between an
experiment carried out on 51 subjects from which 1 stopped before 300V and one
on 50 subjects from which nobody stopped before 300V.

I'm not saying that's what happened, but as far as I know, there's no
assurance mechanism to verify datasets reported by scientists.

~~~
pessimizer
The scientists made the film, too, so there's probably a less interesting
explanation.

~~~
mfukar
You're probably right; where many see fertile soil for an entertaining
conspiracy theory, there may be as little as human forgetfulness. The
interesting part is the implications of such omissions, and not the reasons
behind them.

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chegra
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment#Summary_of_v...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment#Summary_of_variation_results)

The number can go to as much as 92.5% if the subject was not pressing the
shock button but was telling someone else to do it.

It goes up to 90% if the subject sees another go all the way.

If subject is just watching it goes upto 70%.

Another interesting case, is that none continued when two authority figured
disagreed[experimenters] on whether to continue the experiments.

These are just some of interesting results of the variation in milgram
experiment, see the link above for more.

------
nod
"Always look on the briiight side of life..."

Sure, it was about 50 times more than they expected. But on the bright side,
at least it wasn't _everybody_...

------
dantheman
The book Obedience to Authority: [http://www.amazon.com/Obedience-Authority-
Stanley-Milgram/dp...](http://www.amazon.com/Obedience-Authority-Stanley-
Milgram/dp/006131983X)

Is an excellent piece of work, and shows how much work really needs to be done
to try and do social science.

Here's the actual table of results:
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment#Summary_of_v...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment#Summary_of_variation_results)

As you can see, by varying the way responsibility was assigned and the role
the subject had they could get to the point where only 8% refused to got the
450V.

~~~
lifeisstillgood
The wikipedia page notes that moving the experiment out of Yale into a local
office building dropped the 450v obedience to 48% but "was not statistically
significant"

it seems hugely significant - nearly 50% reduction. Does anyone know why it's
not considered significant ?

~~~
lsb
I believe they got 50% compliance at Yale, from the same format. The 92%
obedience was in the format where the "teacher" is in a group of paid actors,
and one of the other actors was actually pressing the switch while the
"teacher" read the questions.

Watch the Youtube links from the comment above, they're absolutely amazing.

------
stukhomsimdrone
It would be quite interesting to see how compliance rises with different
feedback mechanisms. For instance, reducing the actor's communication to
textual output, or having the actor's distress communicated through a third
party.

------
micheljansen
The article frames Milgram's results as if there is some previously
undiscovered optimism in his results. In reality, there is none. A better
headline would have been: "Only half of Milgram's subjects told him to take a
hike".

That means the other half could be persuaded (because the certainly did not do
this out of their own initiative) to administer lethal electric shocks to
another human being. Compliance is a bitch.

~~~
gruseom
It's relative to expectation. Many of us have been hearing about the Milgram
results for years. After a while, the shocking side of it seems to be the only
significant thing. Reading that transcript (and even more, watching the video
of the interview, linked above) is a shock of a different kind, reminding us
that there are angels in us and not only devils. The OP took inspiration in
that. So do I.

I wonder how many of the more compliant subjects would have changed their tune
if they had been in the room when someone like this guy (or the one after him
in the video) stood up and refused. In this respect, the laboratory conditions
were pretty artificial. In life, the social context is usually much larger. It
would be interesting to know under what conditions an individual saying no
would have an amplifying effect. Perhaps someone who knows social psychology
can cite some work on this.

------
apl
Interestingly, there's no way I could get experiments of this kind past the
Ethics Board these days. I'm not quite sure if that's a good or a bad thing.

------
rdl
I've always been surprised none of the "teachers" participating threatened to
call the police. (I would probably have gotten arrested for assaulting the
experimenter, myself.) I would expect the vast majority to comply or politely
leave, but I would expect a few percent of people to have a past association
with torture or abuse and thus to respond directly.

~~~
masklinn
> I would probably have gotten arrested for assaulting the experimenter,
> myself

You keep thinking that, if it can make you feel better about yourself.

> I would expect the vast majority to comply or politely leave

That's the point: it's not the case in any way, shape or form.

~~~
tomjen3
Actually if you know about the experiment, chances are that you won't comply.

~~~
apl
That's trivially true.

~~~
tomjen3
Sure, but you are also less likely to comply with similar requests outside the
experiment.

~~~
apl
No, you aren't. Unfortunately, I must say. All those years taking Social
Psychology courses haven't even made me immune to fascism!

Seriously, though, reading some essential papers in the area is absolutely
worthwhile. Replications of Milgram's initial experiments have investigated
exactly this issue. Knowing that you're susceptible to manipulation by
authority figures doesn't make you any less susceptible.

------
bhiggins
it's too bad nobody neutralized the authority figure and liberated the
prisoner.

~~~
ash
According to the video posted by another commenter, those who refuse to
continue giving a shock are given explaination about real experiment. And then
the "victim" comes in to the subject, in a good health.

