

The Tragedy of the Coffee Shop - neilc
http://www.coffeeandcode.org/2009/08/06/the-tragedy-of-the-coffee-shop/

======
silencio
Love this post.

One family business is running businesses like these, and it frustrates me to
no end when people (for whatever reason, not just working on a laptop) hog a
seat and a table for hours on end after buying the cheapest thing they can
find on the menu _once_ when they walked in. I don't mind if someone sits
there for 10+ hours a day if they keep on buying food and coffee regularly,
and I know I've sat at a table for hours on end working but even went as far
as to make a timer on my laptop to get up every like 30 minutes to go get
something. But it's crass to sit there like "oh, this seat is mine, I bought
ONE small cup of coffee 3 hours ago, stop looking at me like that".

It's one thing for a coffee shop to look busier by having a whole bunch of
people sit there and work away, attracting passers-by, but it's another when
people who don't buy anything just hog the tables preventing new customers
from coming in because they see a total lack of available work space.

That being said, I remember once when I was at a family friend's coffee shop
and there was one customer who just. wouldn't. leave. He was told about their
time limit policy about customers getting x hours with purchase (rarely
enforced...except with people like these) and he was like "whatever" and acted
like he was going to buy something but then settled back in and worked. I saw
this go on for 20 minutes when I decided to boot him off the wifi. I don't
think he realized I was purposefully doing so until I kept on kicking him off,
and the outrage on his face was unbelievable. It was as if he felt he was
entitled to sit there and do whatever he wanted after buying a 50 cent bottle
of water earlier, how dare I interrupt what he was doing. Unfortunately it's
those types of people who ruin the whole experience for all the reasonable
folk.

Lastly, the advice about getting to know the owners/employees is the best :) I
don't spend much time actually working, but when I have there were always a
few customers I got to know and even once ended up working with because they
decided to chat me up after seeing whatever I was doing on the side, like
reading some tech book or coding on my laptop. I always included a little
something for them, like free cookies. Those are the kinds of customers that
make my day.

~~~
lsd5you
"I don't mind if someone sits there for 10+ hours a day if they keep on buying
food and coffee regularly"

Isn't this a bit consumerist, consume something or get out? (And didn't that
jump out at you when you wrote it?) Perhaps there should be a 3rd way, paying
for time at a table. The problem is the pricing (and people taking the piss).

~~~
pwmanagerdied
It's the nearest choice most place have to what you suggest. There are few
venues that allow you to pay directly for table time, but you're (ehtically)
doing the same thing by regularly purchasing items from them.

~~~
lsd5you
I guess my point is, that its probably about time we had different pricing
models. I am not trying to be obtuse, and i do get what you are saying, but
regularly purchasing items is (in my estimation) a bigger problem than the one
it solves. obesity+consumerism > slightly broken cafe market

I would suggest a nominal rate (after the first hour or two) would make
everyone happy. It is quite likely the average stay would increase as people
would not have taking up space on their conscience.

~~~
cema
Obesity has nothing to with it. You can buy water.

The point of effectively buying table time is valid, imho, and I agree that
buying food (or other stuff) from the cafe is a good approximation.

------
dbul
Damn it feels good to be in Pittsburgh. As I often hop coffee shops, I
understand the behavior. Students will even go so far as get a coffee, work,
then go to a nearby food shop and bring something back for their dinner while
they continue to work on their laptops. What's great is that no one cares.
Here it is choice. Most coffee shops are open until 11 or midnight on the
weeknights and 12 or 1 on the weekends, most have wifi, and most have outlets.
If you were to be kicked out of one coffee shop, then simply that coffee shop
loses your business and another one gains.

Just from observation, so many people come in and stay for just a few minutes
or take their coffee to go that it's kind of a nice equilibrium. It's rare
that you'll find a coffee shop in Pittsburgh to 100% capacity (except perhaps
Sunday afternoon or evening in the fall and spring). Electricity costs
nothing. If anything, having people in your coffee shop serves as a kind of
advertisement that it is a place people want to be for whatever reason -- the
coffee is good or they just feel comfortable there.

As fantastic as Manhattan is, there are two reasons why I wouldn't want to
live there: too many tourists and too few coffee shops. The best I could find
in the upper west side was Cosi, a chain. The best I could find around Soho
was some piece that closed earlier than shops in Pittsburgh. And the best I
could find in the Upper East Side closed a couple years ago. Pittsburgh, baby.
Awesome place to live if you love the coffee shops.

~~~
rdouble
There are fewer coffee shops per capita in Manhattan compared to places like
Portland and SF. I'm assuming because rents are so expensive. However, you
were looking in the wrong neighborhoods. The coffee shops are in places like
East/West Village and the Lower East Side.

What you are experiencing in Pittsburgh is a function of cheap rent. I lived
in Minneapolis many years ago and the coffee shop scene was similar to what
you described. The attitudes toward people hanging out and not buying anything
are much different when the rent on a space is $900/m instead of $9000/m.

I wouldn't say that electricity costs nothing. Ritual Roasters in SF said that
laptop users were costing them upwards of $2000/m in electricity charges.

 _Ritual used to have a bazillion power outlets you could plug your laptop
into, and they'd have them covered up only on the weekends. During the second
week of March 2007 (a date that shall live in infamy) they covered up nearly
all of their power outlets permanently in an effort to encourage higher
turnover and cut their $2,000/month electric bill down._

<http://sf.wikispot.org/Ritual_Coffee_Roasters>

[http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-
bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2007/03/...](http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-
bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2007/03/11/MNGKKOCBA645.DTL&type=printable)

~~~
ryanwaggoner
They didn't say that laptop users were costing them $2000 / month, but that
they were trying to cut their $2000 / month bill down. Big difference.

If the coffee shop is open 18 hours per day, 30 days a month, and the average
laptop pulls 50w, which costs $.20 per kWh, they'd need to have like 350-400
laptops plugged in every single hour that they're open to rack up $2k / month
in costs.

If you bring your laptop in and sit for six hours, you've just cost them seven
cents in electricity.

~~~
Retric
The average laptop today pulls in far more than 50w. If everyone was using a
net book with a fully charged battery is's one thing, but while charging I
have measured up to 200w from a "gaming" laptop. Plus you need to double the
energy costs as they guy sitting there and his laptop both increase cooling
costs.

Rerun the numbers and you can easily get 500+$ / month in energy costs from
people just sitting there using a laptop.

~~~
jimboyoungblood
I was a regular at Ritual back when they covered the plugs. I recall:

1) Most people there were either blogging, checking email, surfing myspace and
craigslist, or doing the newfangled Rails thing. The machines were 90% Macs.

2) The place was cooled by opening the back door and turning on a big floor
fan. On hot days, this lowered the temperature from unbearable to merely very
hot.

In your hypothetical air conditioned coffee shop where everyone is playing WoW
on behemoth laptops, $500/month incurred by laptops is possible. But for
Ritual Roasters circa 2004, definitely not.

(btw, I thought it was a fantastic idea when they covered up the plugs)

------
warwick
I wonder if you could adjust the coffee shop model a bit to work better for
these kinds of people. Here's a wacky idea about how it could work.

A few assumptions:

\- People who walk in, pay $n for a cup of coffee, sit at a table and stay for
an hour aren't abusing the system at all. Even if it's just one person at a
table reading, we'll say that $n pays for an hour of table time, in addition
to the coffee, expenses, profit, etc. In that case, two friends walking in and
sharing a table is just a bonus for the shop owner.

\- If people want to stay for longer than their purchase justifies, they're
willing to pay $x for the table, power, wifi, etc.

\- Nobody wants to pay for both their table space and their coffee.

\- This coffee shop is _good_ to work in. It's encouraged by the staff, the
seating is comfortable, outlets are within reach, the music isn't obnoxious,
the food and coffee are good, private rooms might be available for a higher
table fee, etc.

Given all that, here's how I think it could work:

In this coffee shop, a typical customer walks in and orders a cup of coffee
from the barista. She makes it, takes his money, and hands him the coffee. The
trick is that the cup he's received has a little RFID chip, basically rigged
to say 'I am a cup of something'.

The customer chooses a table and sits down. On the table is a little device
with a coin slot and a display on it. It might be reminiscent of those old
jukebox selectors that make you think of '50's diners. The device has a little
clock on it, and also a little secondary display.

When he sits down, the RFID chip registers with the table and the device on
the table registers 1 hour on it's clock. The device also registers the RFIDs
unique ID with a server somewhere in the shop, making sure it only works once.

After an hour, the clock has run down and the customer is still happily
working away. He doesn't really want another coffee yet.

The wait staff receives an alert on their handheld (Think an iPod touch or
some similar device) that the table has 'expired'. They walk over and ask the
customer if they can get them anything else. When he declines, they politely
remind him that he'll have to pay for any additional table time, and he can do
so with the device on the table.

He throws $x into the device, it adds time to the clock and the dollar amount
to it's secondary display. Half an hour later, he decides it's time for more
coffee. He calls over the wait staff (maybe there's even a little button on
the device to call them over), and asks for another coffee. The wait staff
looks at their handheld, sees that the table has paid for time, and goes to
get the coffee. They gives it to the customer, and charge it against the table
on their handheld. The dollar amount on the secondary display decrements to
pay for the coffee, but the clock stays the same. Now the purchase of that
coffee paid for some of his table time. In this way, he isn't effectively
double billed.

Opinions?

~~~
ryanwaggoner
Great technically, but leaves out the social aspect. People are conditioned to
think that if they buy anything, they are entitled to sit at a table for as
long as they want. Putting a meter on that right isn't going to go over well,
especially if I can just go across the street to your competitor and work as
long as I want.

So the key would have to be if all the other coffee shops started turning off
wifi and covering their outlets, or it would have to be a _really_ great place
to work.

------
wallflower
For the perspective of an aspiring coffee shop owner, I recommend (if you have
not read it yet): "I opened a charming neighborhood coffee shop. Then it
destroyed my life."

Via <http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=461791>

<http://www.slate.com/id/2132576>

~~~
lionhearted
Seconded - great piece. It speaks of the dangers of loving the product or
service while neglecting the business side of things.

"The dream of running a small cafe has nothing to do with the excitement of
entrepreneurship or the joys of being one's own boss—none of us would ever
consider opening a Laundromat or a stationery store, and even the most
delusional can see that an independent bookshop is a bad idea these days. The
small cafe connects to the fantasy of throwing a perpetual dinner party, and
it cuts deeper—all the way to Barbie tea sets—than any other capitalist urge.
To a couple in the throes of the cafe dream, money is almost an afterthought.
Which is good, because they're going to lose a lot of it."

That happens to a lot of good people, sadly. Michael Gerber covers it pretty
well in "The E-Myth Revisited", which I consider the Bible for small business
owners. I make anyone I work with read it before we work together. Any
entrepreneurial-minded person who hasn't read it would do well to check it
out. Amazon, no affiliate link:

[http://www.amazon.com/E-Myth-Revisited-Small-Businesses-
Abou...](http://www.amazon.com/E-Myth-Revisited-Small-Businesses-
About/dp/0887307280)

------
jcw
The bit about teahouses in China reminded me that in America, especially the
suburbs, we don't really have places like that. It's kind of sad, the only
place that comes to mind is Waffle House at 3AM. Most restaurants and coffee
shops seem to discourage customers sitting around for several hours.

~~~
timr
I agree that the so-called "third places" don't really exist anymore (in the
US, anyway), but the article's comparison to modern US coffeehouses was
clunky. These days, laptop zombies tend to convert third spaces into glorified
cubicles. Wi-fi has taken formerly social environments, and made them creepy
and dull.

I remember the first time I visited a coffee shop, long Before wi-fi was
invented: it was a social place that had big couches, plants, books and games.
People gathered there, played chess and cards over coffee, and there were even
live performances of various sorts at night and on weekends. Contrast to your
typical coffee shop scene today: rows of tables and uncomfortable chairs,
doubled-up with dudes at laptops who have been camped out for hours, nursing a
small cup of coffee.

Once upon a time, coffee houses were about relaxation and social life; today,
they're basically about work. So personally, I'm thrilled that cafes are
starting to cover up power outlets, and I hope that they soon follow this
trend with _paid_ hourly wi-fi access -- or even eliminating the wireless
access entirely.

------
petercooper
All those people who want to sit around for several hours a day working should
go to the library. They don't mind you doing it and some libraries have
refreshments available.

That said, cafés will have to go beyond blocking up power if they want to
dissuade laptoppers. Battery life is going up a lot, you can easily get 5 or 6
hours on the new MBP and my EEE PC will do 8 hours no trouble. Add a 3G dongle
to that, and I don't really care where I go.

------
rufo
I've gradually been going more and more often to our local coworking space -
no worries about taking up table space, unlimited coffee, other freelancers to
bounce ideas and news off of, and it's no big deal if you want to leave your
equipment there for a bit and run out.

~~~
lsc
Yeah. I am at the Hacker Dojo here in mountain view right now.
<http://hackerdojo.pbworks.com/> \- it's shaping up to be pretty nice.

------
swombat
_My rule of thumb is to buy something regulalry while you’re there – at least
a large cup of coffee every hour._

That's insane. Might as well rent an office for that price. Also, that much
coffee is definitely not good for you.

I agree that you should buy _something_ , but I disagree with the "regularly"
part. I certainly would agree that bringing your own teabags to a coffee shop
is totally out of order though.

~~~
boundlessdreamz
"might as well rent an office for that price". Exactly. The coffee shop owners
are not there to provide a free(or cheap) office space to you. They are there
to run a business and people like you will drive a coffee shop out of
business.

I can see a "sense of entitlement" in you comment. Why do you disagree that if
you are sitting in a coffee shop and occupying one of their seats and using up
electricity for your laptop, you should buy something _regularly_

~~~
neilc
_people like you will drive a coffee shop out of business._

That is more likely to be true if the shop is full to capacity (e.g. during
the lunch rush, etc.). When there is free space, your marginal cost to the
coffee shop is just electricity, which isn't that much.

That said, I agree it's only decent to purchase something regularly -- a
coffee every 2 hours or some food seems reasonable to me.

------
dmoney
At the coffee shop I frequent, with your purchase you can get a card for 2
hours of WiFi. This seems like a good way to limit your laptop per dollar
ratio.

~~~
cryptoz
Starbucks does this, in Canada at least. The gift card (or whatever it is)
costs $5 and you get 2 hours of Wifi with it. The trick to circumvent, though,
is to use the $5 card to purchase another $5 card. Now you have your original
scenario, but four hours of Wifi.

~~~
aardvarkious
You mean you get 2 hours of wifi when you buy a gift card, which you can then
use to buy anything?

~~~
cryptoz
Yep!

------
asdlfj2sd33
It occurs to me that 3rd places in the old world may have existed in large
part due to market inefficiencies. A combination of local monopolies and low
overhead. Some element of love of the game, much like OS software, might have
also played into the ownership of tea houses and outdoor cafes.

But what are we to do in our modern much more efficient real estate and
beverage service markets?

Publicly subsidize 3rd places?

I'm having a hard time comping up with a libertarian argument for public
subsidies of public spaces. I happen to think bridges are better when
privately funded, like the Millau Viaduct
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Millau_Viaduct>

But that's because the return on investment with bridges is easy to collect.

3rd spaces however could be crucial to community building, thereby acting as a
fertilizer for increased business activity and possibly even as a way to
reduce crime rates.

But those benefits are difficult to charge for.

------
jhancock
I prefer coffee shops (U.S.) and tea houses (in China) that do not have WiFi.
I find it very anti-social to walk into a cosy little place and see everyone
focused on their laptops. A coffee shop is a great place to meet your friends
and find new ones. The feel of it being a "free" temp work place doesn't suit
me.

------
bkz
Funny, I was in Berlin last week and spent a couple of evenings at this place
where I can't recall a single person _without_ a laptop:

[http://www.spottedbylocals.com/berlin/area/mitte/bars-
mitte/...](http://www.spottedbylocals.com/berlin/area/mitte/bars-mitte/cafe-
sankt-oberholz)

~~~
gaius
Interesting. Do Germans use their laptops to find partners?

------
springcoil
I love this post too, I spent a lot of my time at college, sitting in coffee
shops doing mathematics/ pretending to study. Third places are a very
interesting tool.

------
xinsight
So, when I go into a coffee shop, don't use the bathroom, order a black coffee
(no sugar), don't use the wifi and quicky leave -- do I get a discount?

