
Declining eyesight improved by looking at deep red light - alister
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2020/06/200629120241.htm
======
Uptrenda
This makes me think of Bulletproof Executive's self-improvement blog. He was
always talking about mitochondria and hacking cells with certain light wave-
lengths and lasers. I thought it was very far-fetched at the time... but maybe
he was onto something.

Related links: [https://www.bulletproof.com/sleep/sleep-hacks/light-
hacking-...](https://www.bulletproof.com/sleep/sleep-hacks/light-hacking-for-
better-energy-mood-and-performance/)

He talks about the red light idea there and the crazy laser idea I'm
remembering I think was "low-level light therapy." Appears to be based on
science:
[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4355185/pdf/nih...](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4355185/pdf/nihms-646190.pdf)

~~~
1MachineElf
Several years ago, Dave Asprey (Bulletproof Executive) was one of the most
positive influences on my diet/wellness. It's too bad that his constant
hustle, eccentricity, and "going against the mainstream" attitude rub a lot of
people the wrong way.

~~~
mindfulhack
Me too. These days, to me Dave Asprey's a mixed bag.

He's the guy who's claimed for years that he's going to live past 180. But in
reality, he has aged in a frightening way, much faster than the average
person. He looks 20 years older than he did 6 years ago.

Maybe it's because of too much biohacking? The body is just not built for so
much modification for such long periods of time?

But I don't take issue with his pursuit, and I wish him well. Perhaps he'll
prove us wrong when something suddenly clicks when he's 80 and he actually
starts decreasing in age again. I'm not being sarcastic. If he wants to keep
trying, good on him.

------
alister
Questions:

(a) Does this study sound plausible?

(b) Would staring at the correct red color on a monitor work? Or would that
not work since monitor colors are generated by mixing R, G, and B pixels and
therefore not a pure wavelength?

(c) Would it be reasonable methodology to test one eye to see if it improves
over the other eye?

~~~
alister
Another question:

(d) How much does the precise wavelength matter? The study used 670nm but also
mentions the range 650-1000nm. Lots of red-light gadgets are available on
Amazon but how do you verify the wavelength? I was thinking of an optical
spectrum analyzer[1] but at $28,000 they are shockingly expensive. Even with
raw LEDs bought from a reliable electronics distributor like Digi-Key, it
would be nice to be able to measure it somehow.

[1]
[https://www.thorlabs.com/newgrouppage9.cfm?objectgroup_id=52...](https://www.thorlabs.com/newgrouppage9.cfm?objectgroup_id=5276)

~~~
cycomanic
I suspect you do not need to use 670nm exactly, however I suspect you need to
be above 650nm. Note that many red LEDs are at a lower wavelength (~630nm). So
you need to search for deep red or by wavelength.

You can use a OSA, but yes they are expensive. Spectrometers are typically
cheaper, but still expensive (you could go to a university optics group and
ask them if they could measure it for you). That said if you buy from a
reputable source you should get the right wavelength.

If you are trying this out be careful with the brightness.

~~~
joezydeco
Instead of trying to emit 670nm, why not just use a wide spectrum source and a
670nm bandpass filter?

~~~
cleansingfire
Like the sun and your closed eyelids. Light transmission goes up with
wavelength [https://www.spiedigitallibrary.org/journals/journal-of-
biome...](https://www.spiedigitallibrary.org/journals/journal-of-biomedical-
optics/volume-16/issue-06/067011/Measuring-and-predicting-eyelid-spectral-
transmittance/10.1117/1.3593151.full?SSO=1) (see figure 5.) To speculate,
perhaps we have evolved to benefit from closing our eyes in the sun.

~~~
joezydeco
That's a great connection. If it's that simple (and explained by human
evolution), that would be awesome.

------
dwheeler
This seems dubious. What in world would be the mechanism?

On the other hand, I don't see the harm in doing this and it seems easy to
replicate. Hopefully others will quickly try to replicate it, and if they do,
try to figure out why.

~~~
kart23
Do a bit of reading on the mitochondria, ATP and the electron transport chain.
I still don't understand exactly the mechanism, but it seems that our cells
might share some characteristics with photosynthetic cells, and certain kinds
of light might increase energy production on a cellular level. From what I
remember in bio class, light energy sets off chain reactions by displacing
electrons in photosynthetic cells. This paper was from 2008, and they
specifically call out low-intensity red light and near-infrared light. Seems
like this idea has been floating around for a while now, and somewhat well
backed up.

[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2996814/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2996814/)
[https://photosynthesiseducation.com/photosynthesis-in-
plants...](https://photosynthesiseducation.com/photosynthesis-in-plants/)

~~~
troughway
If only more people would take the time to read the existing literature and
studies before they say things like "this is dubious" without having a shred
of understanding what it is they are talking about.

------
wincy
I have Phillips Hue and turn them 100% red at night as we're going to bed,
sometimes for a few hours, no idea if it's helping my eyesight though. Been
doing it for a few years.

~~~
danielbln
Why are you doing it?

~~~
kd5bjo
There have been persistent claims that cool color-temperature (bluish) light
in the evenings disrupts sleep quality. I unfortunately can’t remember if that
comes from rigorous studies or pop psychology.

~~~
DarthGhandi
The application flux has a lengthy list of studies on their site.

I struggle for any period of nighttime on a screen without it now.

[https://justgetflux.com/research.html](https://justgetflux.com/research.html)

------
aaron695
If this is real it's a huge deal.

But unless they did a pre study release this is P hacked to death.

24 people, then narrowed to only over 40, 20% difference in some frequencies.

If science worked we'd immediately re-test this. The cost savings per year
could be enormous if it's true.

~~~
Markoff
SOME over 40, not even all over 40 and SOME of these up to 20%, I guess the
others less or no difference, so in the end you end up with individuals you
can count on one hand

if they were serious why they didn't try this only on one eye to compare the
effect on each person?

~~~
meddlepal
Doing it on one eye per person would leave people with very unbalanced vision
if it works great. That creates a QoL issue. Not enough understanding of the
mechanism to then correct the other eye to the same level other than trying a
"state at it for the same time approach".

~~~
Markoff
maximum improvement was only 20%, for most none or less than 20% and only in
dark enviroment, I don't think few weeks would really make any significant
difference or discomfort which could not be reversed during next few weeks
when you can exercise the other eye, so that's not really valid reason why not
to do it this way

------
ars
I wonder if our eyes need campfires when we are older, just like they need
bright sunlight when children in order to properly develop and function.
(Myopia is caused by insufficient bright light as a child.)

Campfires have a LOT of deep red light.

~~~
harry8
>Myopia is caused by insufficient bright light as a child

That seems like an /extremely/ dubious assertion. Maybe it's counter-intuitive
and correct? Anything to back it?

~~~
mikkelam
[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Near-
sightedness](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Near-sightedness)

It is described here in the top section

~~~
harry8
Tentative evidence indicates that the risk of near-sightedness can be
decreased by having young children spend more time outside.[4][7]

So that's a very, very much weaker claim "time outside may affect ..." and
acknowledges the role of genetics and other factors. Of those 2 references I
looked at
[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5599950/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5599950/)

I declare I have no expertise in the field but also didn't find the meta-
analysis paper convincing.

This one:
[https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/26372583/](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/26372583/)

Looks the most promising. I couldn't find a replication.

So there could be something in "time outside" as a beneficial preventative
measure for some children w.r.t. myopia. There is nothing much like "Myopia is
caused by insufficient bright light as a child" as I understand that sentence.
But maybe I've misunderstood?

~~~
ars
When I last looked into it, it seemed they were much more sure. Perhaps
Wikipedia editors wanted refs that were more tempered.

Any explanation of myopia must explain why it is far more prevalent now.
Genetics does not explain that.

~~~
harry8
Not having a full explanation when there isn't yet one is ok. Genetics is
clearly and obviously a major predictor of developing myopia. Any explanation
not taking genetics into account is likely very wrong. Or we're goipng to be
amazingly surprised! (And maybe in a good way! But sadly, I doubt it.)
Genetics explains why being tall is much more prevalent in the Netherlands
now. Always had those genetics, now with better nutrition. Eh, hopefully we'll
find out.

(Now we've had the relevant part of the conversation will you please humour me
as I whinge like a 3 y.o. about how much it s&%ts me on some of the days I
can't see straight? Good. Thanks. As you were...)

~~~
suby
Certainly in some cases it is caused by genetics, but from what I've read, the
evidence suggests that some other factor is at play for the overwhelming
majority of cases. Here is an excerpt from a nature article which leads me to
believe that this is the case.

[https://www.nature.com/news/the-myopia-
boom-1.17120](https://www.nature.com/news/the-myopia-boom-1.17120)

> East Asia has been gripped by an unprecedented rise in myopia, also known as
> short-sightedness. Sixty years ago, 10–20% of the Chinese population was
> short-sighted. Today, up to 90% of teenagers and young adults are. In Seoul,
> a whopping 96.5% of 19-year-old men are short-sighted.

I don't know how that change is possible in one generation if genetics are to
blame. It's possible I'm missing something though.

~~~
kwhitefoot
What proportion of the population had their eye sight measured 60 years ago in
China (or anywhere)?

Is it certain that we are comparing like for like? Many more people everywhere
do work that requires a lot of reading now than 60 years ago even in the
northern Europe so perhaps myopia is more often diagnosed now simply because
it is more of a problem in the modern environment.

~~~
webmaven
You don't necessarily have to have measured the prevalence of myopia among
children 60 years ago to extrapolate from the prevalence of myopia among 70yo
today (since myopia is, by and large, a progressive condition and not
typically reversed spontaneously).

Sure, you have to be worried about selection biases of all sorts including
survivorship bias (eg. suppose myopic people mostly died before they reached
50), but in general, if myopia is as high or higher among 20yo than 60yo
today, it tells you something pretty darn significant.

------
mannanj
There are whole companies dedicated to selling this, Google red light therapy
and you'll find a few. Novothor is the gold standard for athletes at
$100k/pop. I myself jerry-rigged my own comparable unit and bath in it
everyday- I haven't noticed eyesight benefits but I'm convinced I feel
healthier and stronger as a result.

~~~
j3ff5esssions
I am not sure about eye sight, but oddly it was HN where I read abou LLLT
previously, this was link shared: [https://careclinic.io/low-level-laser-
therapy-photobiomodula...](https://careclinic.io/low-level-laser-therapy-
photobiomodulation/) Not to spread conspiracies but who would continue to fund
this type of research as its non invasive and can essentially weed out the day
to day optometrist business complex?

------
Markoff
I have my doubts about results of study with only 24 participants aged 28-72
years where they say SOME people over 40 have seen improvements, why don't
tell how many of these SOME people were over 40? We will end up with what,
5-10 people who saw some improvement? That's anecdotic evidence.

------
lrpublic
Similar software with different usage models can be extremely useful and
support mentoring and staff development.

I’ve been using tools like manictime and more recently the open source
activitywatch to help junior staff learn how to manage their own activities.

I also use a paper based system similar to the emergent time tracker[3] for
the same purpose.

The key difference in approach is these are tools are for the individual to
use to record their own activities, either to later record in other tools like
JIRA or simply to remember and review their work.

Time tracking and activity logging is really important for some businesses,
but having a sensible approach from senior management is critical to avoid
them becoming self defeating. When I ask my colleagues to log their time I set
and expection that useful accuracy of more than 60% is unachievable.

Whenever a senior manager suggests that developers need to log more time in
JIRA I tell them they are focused on the wrong data points and will end up
with every developer logging a flat 8 hours a day - probably with an automated
script. Maybe useful for billing but nothing else.

[https://www.manictime.com/](https://www.manictime.com/)

[https://github.com/ActivityWatch/activitywatch](https://github.com/ActivityWatch/activitywatch)

[3] [https://davidseah.com/node/the-emergent-task-
timer/](https://davidseah.com/node/the-emergent-task-timer/)

------
neom
A quick google search shows that 670nm lights are quite commonly made and easy
to obtain, amazon has a plethora of them (although 660nm is considerably more
common).

~~~
neom
I emailed the professor who did the research and asked about 660 vs 670:

"Yes I am aware that the 670nm LEDs are hard to come by, they are also rather
variable between batches which has caused a lot of problems for us as we now
have to test extensively. I think 660nm will work. Question is, will it work
as well as the 670nm? I suspect not. But also I do not know if this can be
compensated for by longer exposures etc etc… There are a lot of variables here
that we do not know about"

~~~
theelous3
Nice. Good job reaching out to the horses mouth :)

------
thomk
Do you stare deeply at a red light OR do you stare at a light that is the
color deep red? If traffic lights count, I should be able to see through walls
by now!

------
s9w
I'm not sure why the comments here seem so dismissive. The mechanism that eyes
need red light for regenerative processes is known for a long time I think. I
remember a friend working in optics telling me about that a decade ago. Eyes
are adapted for sunlight, which is more than plausible.

It's just not popular because it implies that screen use is bad and those
unpopular scientific topics are often pushed under the rug.

~~~
car
Source please.

~~~
s9w
Frankly my experience with posting sources on HN has almost never been good.
It's often just taken as a reason to pick those apart and start a flamewar. My
comment above has been downvoted at least 5 times which makes me confident
that this is one those times.

For what it's worth I have no stakes in anything and no sources at hand. I
remember having read at least two different studies about this, but it has
been years. I'm sure your google-fu is as good as mine so maybe you can find
something.

~~~
car
Surely it’s not controversial to post a scientific publication supporting your
claims.

I suggest you Google-fu yourself.

~~~
s9w
A quick search turned up the following. The list is non-exhaustive and wasn't
vetted in detail.

2017: Aging Retinal Function Is Improved by Near Infrared Light (670 Nm) ...

"Our data suggest, 670 nm light can significantly improve aged retinal
function"

[https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/28129566/](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/28129566/)

\---------------------------------------------------

2016: Red Light of the Visual Spectrum Attenuates Cell Death in Culture and
Retinal Ganglion Cell Death in Situ

" Low, non-toxic levels of red light focussed on the retina for a short period
of time are sufficient to attenuate an insult of raised IOP to the rat retina"

[https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/26928988/](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/26928988/)

\---------------------------------------------------

2015: Mitochondrial Decline Precedes Phenotype Development in the Complement
Factor H Mouse Model of Retinal Degeneration but Can Be Corrected by Near
Infrared Light

"we provide evidence for a mitochondrial basis for this disease in mice and
correct this with simple light exposure known to improve mitochondrial
function"

[https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/26149919/](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/26149919/)

\---------------------------------------------------

2013: 670 nm light mitigates oxygen-induced degeneration in C57BL/6J mouse
retina

"These results suggest that pretreatment with 670 nm light may provide
stability to photoreceptors"

[https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/24134095/](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/24134095/)

\---------------------------------------------------

2013: Low-Intensity Far-Red Light Inhibits Early Lesions That Contribute to
Diabetic Retinopathy: In Vivo and In Vitro

"Daily 670-nm PBM treatment resulted in significant inhibition in the
diabetes-induced death of retinal ganglion cells"

[https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/23557732/](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/23557732/)

\---------------------------------------------------

2013: Paranode Abnormalities and Oxidative Stress in Optic Nerve Vulnerable to
Secondary Degeneration: Modulation by 670 Nm Light Treatment

"Light at a wavelength of 670 nm may serve as a therapeutic intervention for
treatment of secondary degeneration following neurotrauma"

[https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/23840470/](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/23840470/)

\---------------------------------------------------

2012: Age-related Retinal Inflammation Is Reduced by 670 Nm Light via
Increased Mitochondrial Membrane Potential

"670 nm light [...] significantly increased mitochondrial membrane
polarization and significantly reduced macrophage numbers and tumor necrosis
factor-alpha levels"

[https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/22595370/](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/22595370/)

~~~
jcynix
And this site includes an interesting chart of effective light frequencies:

"This chart pulled from the Joovv site shows that one of the receptors of
light energy in our body, Cytochrome C Oxidase, absorbs many more photons at
certain wavelengths."

[https://primalhacker.com/blogs/learn/red-light-
photobiomodul...](https://primalhacker.com/blogs/learn/red-light-
photobiomodulation-buyers-guide)

------
rbanffy
Finally I found a medical reason to get myself an IBM 3290 terminal.

[https://scontent-
dub4-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/49342347_11605...](https://scontent-
dub4-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/49342347_1160564850772588_8668337665210318848_o.jpg?_nc_cat=109&_nc_sid=730e14&_nc_ohc=12DB8kQzOgMAX_UOs15&_nc_ht=scontent-
dub4-1.xx&oh=e300c82a32814de9b31e9514490cf8be&oe=5F1F4AD6)

------
nils-m-holm
How about wearing laser goggles that block out, for instance, 200..550nm and
800..1000nm? Wouldn't that be like looking into a deep red light source?

------
WhyNotHugo
I wonder if people who aggressively use redshift and warmer lights at home
could be positively affected by this over the years.

~~~
mettamage
There's a confounding effect: I'm using Flux quite a bit and I'm noticing it
reduces my eye strain by quite a bit.

------
giardini
Since I returned to commuting, I've been watching far more red lights. Finally
I know why my sight is improving!

------
kgwxd
What's the wavelength of the red you see when facing the sun with your eyes
closed? I remember seeing some claim a few years ago (can't find it right now)
that doing that every day would improve eyesight.

~~~
robterrell
Not sure about the wavelength, but I believe the claim can be found in Aldous
Huxley’s “The Art of Seeing” which is an account of vision therapies using the
Bates method.

------
masonic
"Our devices cost about £12 to make, so the technology is highly accessible to
members of the public."

Can anybody tell me where to find a reasonably precise 670nm torch at that
price point?

------
mrrobotchicken
My eyesight has been getting worse since I was addicted to reading Agatha
Christine at age 14-16. After 14 years the decline has not stopped, this is
definitely worth a shot.

~~~
Terretta
> _eyesight ... worse since ... reading Agatha Christie_

Like they say, an Agatha Christie a day keeps eyesight acuity away.

------
Der_Einzige
Mechanism is by reducing the blue light hazard right? This is the same thing
as why red light is used is the astronomy community to preserve night vision.

------
Fred27
This may improve colour sensitivity, but by far the biggest vision problem due
to ageing is long-sightedness. This does nothing for that.

~~~
mschaef
> This may improve colour sensitivity,

It looks like it also improves low-light sensitivity, which is arguably more
useful than colour sensitivity.

"Rod sensitivity (the ability to see in low light) also improved significantly
in those aged around 40 and over,"

> by far the biggest vision problem due to ageing is long-sightedness.

I had cataracts at a young age, and had my natural lenses replaced with fixed-
focus implants. There were lots of positives after the procedure, but the
downside was an immediate loss of any ability to focus. (Progressive loss of
ability to focus is why long-sightedness becomes an issue as you age, and this
is a complete loss of that ability in fifteen minutes.)

It may be that I have a 1.5D (intentional) delta in the two lenses, but loss
of focusing ability hasn't been that bad so far. In fact, I can now write this
on a laptop without any external correction at all. At least from my anecdotal
experience, I'd characterize long-sightedness as potentially frustrating, but
easily manageable.

What scares me, though, are retinal issues (the ATP loss described in the
paper, as well as others). Treatment options there are generally far less
effective and far more intrusive.

------
yahma
The most important detail is missing from the articles. What intensity of
light is reaching the eyes?

------
neves
I have a multi colored smart lamp. Which configuration can be considered a
"deep red light"?

~~~
neves
This is the article specification:

"...improvements in the function of the retina's photoreceptors when their
eyes were exposed to 670 nanometre (long wavelength) deep red light."

Can it be obtained with a normal led light?

------
consultutah
So I guess I can’t just make a red image on my phone and stare at it. Right?

------
infogulch
What about fire makes you want to look at it? Maybe this is one reason.

------
msie
Red light plus bloodletting? Health centres are going to look like dungeons at
this rate.

