
My lazy American students - tokenadult
http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2009/12/21/my_lazy_american_students/
======
telemachos
Long story alert; bear with me. I got my hair cut today, and as usual they had
the tv on. There was a game where contestants were asked questions such as
(actual question from the show), What color is a banana? (The contestants look
to be 20s to me, but I'm old, so who knows.)

Contestants were dropping like flies. Here's what they couldn't answer: (1)
What is H20? (answer given, with a quizzical tone, "Blackjack? 21?"), (2) Who
is the current Vice President? and (3) In what state is New Orleans located?

The winner had to answer a final question. It was "Who was the second
President of the United States?" She couldn't answer it.

The owner of the shop is a recent (last 10 years) immigrant from a former
Soviet Block country (can't remember which one). He says laughing, "God bless
American education." (Full disclosure: I am a high school teacher. I just bite
my tongue.)

The punch line: all three win prizes. Don't believe me? This is why I love the
internet in 2009. I have the video:
[http://ellen.warnerbros.com/videos/?autoplay=false&media...](http://ellen.warnerbros.com/videos/?autoplay=false&mediaKey=38aa338e-edc2-47f4-88cc-
fcff2b95a0c6)

What does all this prove? Nothing. Just like that editorial. The problem with
that article, like most of the articles of that genre, is that it's entirely
anecdotal. (The author cites some statistics about missing basic knowledge,
but it's a red herring. Basic knowledge is irrelevant to her argument which
has to do with effort and work ethic.)

I've come to believe that this is just one of those things. Teachers complain
about their students - a lot. Imagine that. No newspaper with a brain on their
staff should accept an editorial (on this topic) from a teacher immediately
after the end of term - ever.

------
zck
This seems partially explained by selection bias -- the slackers from "India,
China, and Latin America" don't come to America for college at the same rates
as American slackers do. However, this doesn't explain the actual statistics
she gives.

~~~
potatolicious
I grew up in Taiwan, so I think I can shed some light on this. IMHO "the
average" Taiwanese student will work harder than the average American student,
but not by a supremely gross margin as this article would imply.

The bottom-barrel students never end up in American colleges, after all.

The chief difference is cultural - in Asia intellectualism is celebrated and
demanded. Parents don't push their kids to football, they push them to
academic achievement. Not being able to make it into college isn't worn as a
badge of honor, it's downright shameful. I have personally known people who've
shipped their kids away from home to some backwater third-rate academy, just
so they can hide the fact that the kid couldn't get into any school locally.

Beyond parental pressure, peer pressure also largely pushes people to academic
achievement. Having high marks won't get you beat up - in fact it commands
respect (within reason). Having poor marks likewise isn't cool like it is
here, but is similarly embarrassing.

Keep in mind though, that this has some consequences that academics who opine
about the lack of American work ethic consistently fail to mention:

\- Appreciation and participation in the arts, both as a college study, and as
extracurriculars, is ridiculously low. People who study the humanities are
looked down upon, I even know one guy who got disowned for it.

\- Social integration takes a backseat, often to disastrous results later. In
Taiwan is it not irregular for a middle school child (age 12 or so) to be at
some form of school for 14 hours a day. There's literally only spare time to
eat and sleep (and sometimes not even). Socialization is minimal, and add this
onto the culture of living with your parents well into your 20s, it produces
some seriously socially inept people.

Japan is already dealing with these consequences - look up "hikkikomori" if
you're interested.

~~~
joe_the_user
Great post, I'd also mention...

It take a certain to 'laziness' to solve a problem elegantly rather than
through grinding effort.

This kind of laziness, the kind of laziness that great programmers laud, can
require a bit of effort. It's the kind of effort mathematicians go through
when they look at problem for five minutes before saying "it's trivial".

The America that built Silicone Valley sometimes had this right balance
between effort and "laziness". Present America certainly seems to have taken a
wrong turn.

~~~
maximilian
I would say that you speak of 'cleverness' instead of laziness. If I look at a
problem that looks like a ton of tedious work, it is eminently useful to spend
time just thinking about the solution.

If anything, its an appreciation for elegance.

But maybe its just laziness as you say. If a solution looks like a grind, I
will spend just as much time trying to find an elegant solution (probably
more) because I don't want to just grind out the solution.

------
zaidf
To offer a contrarian view, I have two friends from India this semester who
got caught for plagiarizing in their English class. This is just _this_
semester.

I won't make any big judgement calls about international students based on
observing my few friends. But hey, it does make me believe that international
students are less aware of the consequences of things like plagiarizing. I
think they are a little behind on it. For American students, we went through
the "dumb phase" of plagiarizing in 6th grade when I remember 90% of my class
using the same one source for an assignment forcing the teacher to give an
hour long lecture on plagiarizing. She also canceled that assignment.
International students, unfortunately, don't seem to have gotten that lesson
before coming here. Really unfair for them -- but a win for American
education(rare as that may be).

~~~
deepakjois
Based on your experience of two friends from _India_ , you started believing
that _international_ students are less aware of the consequences of
plagiarizing. Your point is nonsensical on so many levels.

First, since when did 'two friends from India' begin reflecting the attitudes
of millions of students all over the world ( _international_ ), only a
fraction of which end up in the US in the first place.

Second, how can you conclude that they were _unaware_ of the consequences of
plagiarizing. Maybe they were aware of the consequences, but decided to take a
chance anyway.

It seems to be that you are subtly implying that the American education system
inculcates some sense of ethics (discouraging things like plagiarism) in the
students, which for some inexplicable reason the education system of these
_international_ students doesn't. That IMHO is bigoted.

~~~
tensor
While I agree with your sentiments on a lack of proper data, there is another
hypothesis for foreign students, _perhaps_ having a higher rate of cheating.
One that is not bigoted at all, and applies equally well to a subset of north
american students.

Some cultures, India, China, perhaps others, currently place immense value on
education. This brings with it immense pressure. While that can lead to a good
work ethic, perhaps the immense pressure can also lead to a higher likelihood
of cheating. It's not that these students underestimate the risk of getting
caught, but more that they may be _more_ afraid of the reaction of their
family or peers back home if they fail.

Getting good grades is not exclusively a result of hard work. Often it can be
genuinely challenging. For some international students, failing can mean a
loss of scholar ship and thus having to leave back home. For students in
China, for example, this may mean a loss of freedom, and certainly a big loss
of social rank back home.

North American students studying here may occasionally have a lot of pressure
from home, but they never risk being denied citizenship, or being relegated to
low paying jobs for the rest of their life with no chance of improving.

In some graduate programs, this fact is occasionally taken advantage of by
unethical professors, who can get away with treating their international
students poorly.

~~~
zaidf
_perhaps having a higher rate of cheating_

I had a professor from France this semester. He went on a tirade about how we
should cover our papers and not cheat. The whole class(all Americans) seemed
pretty lost and could not relate to his lecture on cheating. I see a similar
response when mainly foreign professors ask students to switch seats and
spread around the room on exam days.

My French professor said when he went to college in the US, he had moments
where the professor left the class and my professor(then a student) would look
around him hoping folks would "cooperate"(in funny French accent). I'm not
sure how much of that was said as a joke but I think the sentiment has at
least some truth to it.

I can definitely tell you that while I was in India and my initial few years
in the US, I was under immense pressure to perform. That is also when I would
be most inclined to do not-so-ethical things. Then over time the pressure goes
away and the incentive to cheat does not seem greater than just doing the work
or accepting a poor grade.

------
yesimahuman
One thing I still can't understand is how so many people are okay asking for
an extension on something. I can't believe how many of my peers ask for
extensions on papers and programming assignments. It's unreal. School might
not be as high a priority as my startup right now, but I never turn in
anything late. I think tardiness is the worst kind of habit to have.

~~~
lmkg
At my college, the professors explicitly told us to always ask for extensions
if we needed it, provided it was a few days to a week in advance. It is a form
of time management to know ahead of time that you have 60 hours worth of work
due in the next 48 hours, and talking to the professor builds communication
skills and the good habit of giving feedback to your superiors.

If you're talking about asking for an extension 10 minutes before the deadline
(or 10 minutes after), that's a whole different kettle of fish.

~~~
yesimahuman
I can understand that. What bothers me though is the attitude that it is okay
to ask for extensions on a regular basis.

Perhaps this has more to do with the role college plays in American society. I
believe that college has become more of a high school extension than anything,
and so maybe it is wrong to blame students who treat it as such. I doubt they
would be slacking off in grad school (but I can't be sure!)

~~~
swolchok
It's OK to ask. You may not _get_ the extension, but given the amount of
unannounced lateness teachers often see, asking for an extension in advance
with a "how can we work this out" attitude looks like an attempt to be
responsible. Contrast with an attitude of starting things the day they're due
and then acting surprised when you can't finish a multi-week project in one
day.

------
michaelcampbell
> Of course, it would be wrong to suggest that all American students are the
> same.

...

> Success is all about time management, and in a globalizing economy,
> Americans’ inability to stay focused and work hard could prove to be a
> serious problem.

<sigh>

~~~
telemachos
And you know what's _really_ sad about how poorly argued the editorial is? The
author is a teacher of Rhetoric and History and based on her description of
her students, I bet she teaches freshman composition or the like. (If that
doesn't ring any bells, many colleges require incoming students - all or
nearly all - to take a semester or a year of critical reading and writing
courses in their first year. It's basically remedial education by another
name.)

~~~
tokenadult
My favorite comment about this same article elsewhere in cyberspace: "I don't
know whether to say if she's bad at rhetoric because her argument is so poor
or if she's good at rhetoric because she got printed in a major newspaper."

------
mtts
Nice. Now there's this. I went from an American high school to a Dutch
university (admittedly a decade and a half ago, but still) and was shocked to
discover that Dutch students as a matter of principle refuse to put in any
effort that will push them beyond the barest minimum above a passing grade
whereas the Americans I was used to at least tried to shoot for, say, a C, and
if they were especially ambitious, a B or even a B+.

(that said, at the "American high school" I went to there were also a large
number of Indian, Taiwanese and Korean kids and, like the article suggests,
they made it a matter of principle to never receive less than an A+ in any
course they took - although, that said, they rarely enrolled in courses where
their chances of receiving such grades were in peril: very few Taiwanese and
Koreans took history or English literature, for example)

~~~
evannyx
Completely agree. I moved from an American university to a Dutch one. Grades
in the Netherlands are out of 10 (see
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Academic_grading_in_the_Netherl...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Academic_grading_in_the_Netherlands));
Nobody bothers to take more than a 6, most end up with a 5.5.

I get weird looks when I tell classmates I'm aiming for a 9 or a 10 (almost
equivalent to an A or A+ in US universities)

------
timtadh
Maybe not complete bullshit but an exaggeration in my opinion. Just because a
student comes from China or another India or wherever does not necessarily
mean they are amazing workers.

For instance one semester I was lab partners in an electronics lab with a
Chinese student. Initially he did good work but as the semester continued he
did less and less, until the second to last lab where he did none at all.
Since I worked straight through the night on the lab, I let the lab director
know that my partner had done very little work on the lab, he spoke to my
partner and my partner put in more effort on the final lab.

I give this anecdote merely to point out that not every Chinese student is
perfect, in the same way that not every American student is lazy. In my
opinion there are many other factors at play other than cultural background of
the student, perhaps the most important being the subject. I believe my
partner did not engage in the labs because he was not that interested in the
subject but rather felt pressured to pursue it by his engineering parents.

In the same way many students attend college in America but do not have
concrete goals or ambitions on what they want to study. They are pressured by
all kinds of things to go to college right away, and many do not realize until
the end of their time as an undergraduate what they truly want to study.

Therefore can we please stop making generalizations about student performance
based on these types of things and instead of saying "you must be a good
student you are X" look at the reason why good students are good students.

------
endtime
Counterpoint: In my experience as a CS TA, international students are far more
likely to cheat on problem sets than American students.

~~~
yardie
As an American student I've observed or heard of both international and local
students cheating. It really pissed me off when students would come to exams
with psychiatrists' notes about a sudden onset of ADHD. Or abuse the sympathy
of the teacher to get more time. Crib sheets only occurred in lower level
classes where it's hard to observe. At the higher levels it becomes obvious
who knows what.

------
alexgartrell
It's funny, a Czech Graduate Student friend of mine always says that Americans
work too hard and focus too much on materialistic things. (For the record,
this guy is a genius and is advised by two guys, the inventor of RAID and the
Dean of CMU's School of Computer Science).

Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

As an American student, I'd have to say I'm pretty pleased with the way things
are.

------
ekpyrotic
UK students are worried of working hard. Western figureheads are often the
child protegy, the uneducated polymath. 'Hard workers' are failures -- not
geniune. We all strive (the right term?) to be the drop-out who can turn up on
the exam morning and pull 100%.

'Hard worker' is an offensive term.

It's a cultural problem.

------
ivenkys
Too many generalisations and over-simplification. A single swallow does not
make a spring.

As an aside, this concept of Asian Intellectualism to me has always sounded
hollow. My experience has been that Asian students especially Indian students
tend to favour learning-by-rote over critical thinking which requires large
amounts of time spent memorising things versus understanding them. The school
and university exams in India tend to emphasise that as well.

------
oldtimer
So why hasn't this professor just been honest with her students and told them
they are wasting their money? Oh! yeah, that would mean should would be out of
a job. Better to just let the students get deeper and deeper into debt.

Hint to her, she's part of the problem.

------
edw519
This article was entirely alien to me. Why should I care about the work of
people who don't even care about it themselves?

Then I thought I'd recast the situation into a more familiar setting.
Apologies to OP. Make sure you read her version first. Does my version seem
any stranger to you?

 _It was the kind of pitch I hate.

"I’ll do better," my software vendor told me, leaning forward in his chair. "I
know I’ve gotten behind this phase, but I’m going to turn things around. Would
it be OK if I finished all your uncompleted requirements by Monday?"

I sat silent for a moment. "Yes. But it’s important that you catch up
completely this weekend, so that you’re not just perpetually behind."

A few weeks later, I would conduct a nearly identical conversation with two
other vendors. And, again, there would be no tangible result: No make-up
software. No change in effort. No improvement in time management.

By the time entrepreneurs are in the marketplace, habits can be tough to
change. If you’re used to playing video games like "Modern Warfare" or "Halo"
all night, how do you fit in four hours of customer revisions? Or rest up for
a demo?

Building start-ups in this market, especially one with a large international
population, has given me a stark - and unwelcome - illustration of how
Americans’ work ethic often pales in comparison with their peers from
overseas.

My failing entrepreneurs this semester are almost exclusively American, while
my entrepreneurs from India, China, and Latin America have - despite language
barriers - generally written solid software, excelled on prototypes, and
become valuable business partners.

One woman from Shanghai became a fixture at Super Happy Dev House, embraced
our coworking center, and incessantly e-mailed me questions about her evolving
website. Her javascript is still mediocre: she frequently puts ";" everywhere
(as in "x = y;y = z;z = a;") and confuses global variables with local
variables. But that didn’t stop her from doing rewrite after rewrite,
tirelessly trying to improve both syntax and performance.

Chinese entrepreneurs have consistently impressed me with their work ethic,
though I have seen similar habits in entrepreneurs from India, Thailand,
Brazil, and Venezuela. Often, they’ve done little server-side coding in their
home companies, and they frequently struggle to understand my specifications.
But their respect for customers - and for business itself - is palpable. The
entrepreneurs listen intently to everything I say, whether on-line or at code
reviews, and try to engage in the process.

Too many 18-year-old American entrepreneurs, meanwhile, text one another under
their workstations (certain they are sly enough to go unnoticed), check
e-mail, decline to take notes, and appear tired and disengaged.

Of course, it would be wrong to suggest that all American entrepreneurs are
the same. I’ve engaged many who were hardworking, talented, and deeply
impressive. They listened intently, engaged customer dialogues, and never
shied away from code rewrites. At their best, American entrepreneurs marry
knowledge and innovation, resulting in some astoundingly creative web apps.

But creativity without knowledge - a common phenomenon - is just not enough.

Too many American entrepreneurs simply lack the basics. In 2002, an O'Reilly
survey found that most 18- to 24-year-olds could not find regular expressions,
data base access, or sorting algorithms in a PDF document, ranking them behind
counterparts in Sweden, Great Britain, Canada, Italy, Japan, France, and
Germany. And in 2007 the American Institutes for Research reported that eighth
graders in even our best-performing states - like Massachusetts - scored below
peers in Singapore, South Korea, and Japan, while entrepreneurs in our worst-
performing states - like Mississippi - were on par with eighth graders in
Slovakia, Romania, and Russia.

We’ve got a knowledge gap, spurred by a work-ethic gap.

Which brings me to another code-challenged entrepreneur, who once sprinted
across the office to talk to me.

"I’m really sorry I missed your targets," he said. "Do you have time to talk?"

"I have a meeting in a couple of minutes," I said. "But you can walk with me."

"OK," he said. "I really enjoy your challenge, and I think I can do better.
How can I improve my site?"

I looked at him sideways. "Well, you might start with writing some code."

"Yeah," he grinned, looking at his shoes. "Sorry about that. There’s always
stuff going on in my office late in the day. I have to learn to be better
about time management."

Of course, he had it exactly right. Success is all about time management, and
in a globalizing economy, Americans’ inability to stay focused and work hard
could prove to be a serious problem.

Nowhere, sadly, is this clearer than in the marketplace._

~~~
dinkumthinkum
I'm not sure what your point is.

