
Richmond Italian restaurant waging war on Yelp - ilamont
http://richmondstandard.com/2014/09/richmond-italian-restaurant-waging-awesome-war-yelp/
======
jedberg
This is a better article:
[http://insidescoopsf.sfgate.com/blog/2014/09/17/richmond-
res...](http://insidescoopsf.sfgate.com/blog/2014/09/17/richmond-restaurant-
owner-encourages-bad-yelp-reviews/)

It has the full emails back and forth between yelp and company, which are the
most telling part.

Basically the company doesn't want to be on yelp, but yelp won't remove them.
Now they are "buying" bad reviews, so yelp has threatened to take action and
the restaurant basically says "bring it on" since that is exactly what they
want.

~~~
mnw21cam
It's interesting that Yelp refer to their terms of service in their letter to
the restaurant. Since this is all being done behind the restaurant's back, and
they will not have signed up to any terms of service, that is completely
irrelevant. Yelp has no legal contract with the restaurant.

~~~
mkopinsky
Yelp is pointing out to the restaurant that they're asking customers to
violate _the customers '_ TOS with Yelp. Nowhere is it insinuated that they
themselves have an agreement with yelp.

It is not being done behind the restaurant's back. The restaurant is paying
the customers (in free pizza) to leave the feedback.

~~~
sjwright
It's not the restaurant's responsibility to enforce Yelp's terms of service.

------
beatpanda
Just a note about the "Richmond Standard": it exists for the sole purpose of
publishing press releases from Chevron, as well as op-eds by Chevron-supported
public figures, as a propaganda tool in the ongoing fight for political
control of Richmond, California. They trick people into reading the Chevron PR
as "news" by hiding it among stories like this one and hoping people don't
read the fine print.

~~~
blakeja
This has been going on for what, 100+ years? Is there any newspaper that is
not owned by some rich company or individual with their own motivations? I'm
still waiting to see how far Bezos plans to go with the Post.

~~~
brudgers
_The Tampa Bay Times_ [ formerly the _St Petersburg Times_ ] is published by
Times Publishing Company which is wholly owned by the Poynter Institute.

The Poynter Institute is dedicated to journalism.

[1]
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tampa_Bay_Times](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tampa_Bay_Times)

[2] [http://www.tampabay.com/](http://www.tampabay.com/)

[3] [http://www.poynter.org/](http://www.poynter.org/)

------
VeejayRampay
The main issue here is the idiotic customers writing asinine comments and
reviews. I can't count the number of times I've seen things like :

"I ordered that pair of running shoes, I really wanted a toaster, one star" or
"The packaging was broken when I received my game, 0.5/10".

When you accumulate "reviews" like these where people are totally unable to
dissociate their internal state of mind and the quality of the product at hand
(and basically using the system to vent their personal frustration), the value
you get out of it is basically non-existent.

~~~
riffraff
isn't the solution to that metamoderation a-la amazon?

i.e. "was this review useful?" gets "no" for both the above reviews.

Seems to work IMO.

~~~
maroonblazer
The problem with Amazon's system is that unless you know to look to see if the
review is helpful, you may think it legit.

StackExchange solved this problem. I don't know why more sites use that
approach to reviews.

------
jerf
LINKS. IT'S 2014. DEAR ALL THAT'S HOLY IN JOURNALISM, WHERE ARE THE DAMNED
LINKS?

Pardon the all caps. Shame on you, Richmond Standard. This is just absurd for
2014.

pesenti has the link to the yelp page, which I won't replicate, but here's the
Botto Bistro FAQ page, which they went to the effort to take a screen shot of
and cut into pieces and upload into their content system (which had to be at
least five minutes total) but couldn't be bothered to link to (at about five
seconds):
[http://www.bottobistro.com/FAQ.html](http://www.bottobistro.com/FAQ.html)

------
pesenti
Link to the yelp page: [http://www.yelp.com/biz/botto-italian-bistro-
richmond-3](http://www.yelp.com/biz/botto-italian-bistro-richmond-3)

------
blisterpeanuts
Some of these Yelp reviews are priceless! I like the self-referential ones (or
is it self-anticipatory?) where people write predictive reviews based on their
expected dislike of the restaurant in advance of actually visiting it. Also
priceless is the one referenced in the article where the restaurant manager
steals away the reviewer's girlfriend, so he goes and sulks there once a week
in a dark corner booth.

Yelp's fundamental flaw is the fact that you can't tell real from fabricated
reviews. You have to read with a skeptical eye and any overly gushing praise
or overly nasty criticism of a particular business is suspect. I tend to trust
the three and four star reviews over the 1's, 2's, and 5's.

Amazon at least has the advantage of identifying people who actually bought
the product, and there is the option to comment on a review. It's not perfect
but can be useful. Yelp's reviewers seem a bit under-vetted by comparison.

~~~
JoeAltmaier
They are what they are. I think the mistake is imagining people care about the
Yelp rating. Do folks look at the number, or read the reviews? Most of us can
spot a rankled-reviewer-rant and ignore it. Sensitive restaurant owners are
getting upset over very little.

~~~
dkrich
I was in Boston a few weeks ago visiting a famous bar by Fenway called the
"Cask n Flagon." This place is a gigantic sports bar and one of probably only
five or six bars that sits around the stadium.

I got to talking with the bartender and he told me a story about a customer
who became irate that the bar was closing early and that they were scared that
she would go on Yelp and write a bad review. I laughed because I thought he
was joking, thinking that nobody would ever base the decision to visit this
place on a Yelp review. However he told me that the reviews matter a lot. I
still doubt that he is correct about that, but it does show you the perception
and fear restaurants large and small have about Yelp.

~~~
Tyrannosaurs
I don't know about Yelp, but I've met people working in hotels who live in
genuine fear of bad Trip Advisor reviews.

And I can understand that - if I'm going somewhere I don't know and have
little time for research you just go somewhere like Trip Advisor and skim
read. A couple of very negative reviews might make a real difference for
smaller places which only have a couple of dozen reviews in total.

~~~
DanBC
... But sometimes a bad review works in the company's favour. Someone can have
a bad experience and not be happy with efforts the business takes to sort
things out. I might think the company did everything reasonably possible and
so that "bad" review become evidence good practice.

~~~
maaku
More likely some jerk says one made up thing about rats in his trip report and
your business shrivels up in no time at all.

------
WoodenChair
Underdog story, or arrogant owners who don't want to listen to feedback? The
Yelp review process is certainly flawed, but I find their FAQ troubling.

"Q. Have you heard that the customer is always right? A. Yes and we find it
hilarious. A business owner who believes that deserves to deal with the
monsters he has created. We don't belong to that club, but if you do...bravo!"

[http://www.bottobistro.com/FAQ.html](http://www.bottobistro.com/FAQ.html)

Update: A couple people have asked for my clarification on why this is
"troubling." I worked in the service industry before. I also have travelled
extensively outside the U.S. in other Western countries. I have found that
what differentiates the American service industry from other countries is that
we do have this ingrained notion that "The Customer is Always Right." If I'm
handing over my hard earned money to a business, I do expect the business to
bend over backward for me. If it doesn't there are plenty of other business
that are willing to. That's one of the great things about a free market - we
can choose where to shop in a non-monopoly market based on how well a business
treats us. Businesses that don't get that deserve to lose customers (and do).
In short: You're not the only suitor for my business and I don't need to feel
bad about having high expectations.

~~~
leoedin
Troubling why? Some people are dicks. I find the widespread service industry
attitude that you must bend over backwards to treat them well while they're
treating you like dirt quite troubling.

I can't speak for this place because I've never been there. However, I
definitely wouldn't hold it against a restaurant that chose to treat customers
with the same level of respect that the customers gave their serving staff.

If the restaurant is thriving in spite of its bad yelp reviews that suggests
that it has a loyal customer base. That would suggest that they are doing
something right.

~~~
greenyoda
_" I find the widespread service industry attitude that you must bend over
backwards to treat them well while they're treating you like dirt quite
troubling."_

Exactly. For an eye-opening view of what kind of shitty customer behavior
restaurant and retail employees have to put up with on a daily basis, see the
"Not Always Right" blog:

[http://notalwaysright.com](http://notalwaysright.com)

------
protonfish
I honestly don't bother with online restaurant reviews anymore. No matter how
good of a place it is, you can always have an off night or a challenging
customer. These generate negative reviews in an indistinguishable manner from
any other restaurant. The only positive reviews I see look suspiciously like
what employees would write so those aren't helpful either. 1-5 star ratings
are meaningless.

But movie reviews (a la Rotten Tomatoes) work somehow. Possibly because they
aren't just flaming rants about how there was a hair in their popcorn. Maybe
if the reviewing community were asked "what restaurants do you frequent and
why?" and you could follow active citizen reviewers in your area it might
generate more constructive feedback.

------
sine_dicendo
Google Cache:
[https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:http:/...](https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:http://www.richmondstandard.com/2014/09/richmond-
italian-restaurant-waging-awesome-war-yelp/)

------
vishalzone2002
I always find this flaw in yelp which I think might become a bigger problem
for them. They allow pretty much anybody to write any kind of review for any
business. There is no validation that the yelp user have had interacted with
the business unless the business owners takes a notice and claims that its
otherwise. I was at a a small business hackathon and not even a single SMB
owner was happy with yelp. Even the ones who had good reviews do not think
that it contributed a lot to their business. Has this thing ever crossed your
mind?

------
brightsize
Somewhat off-topic, but the Real Actors Read Yelp series on Youtube is
priceless. [http://goo.gl/mlsTWQ](http://goo.gl/mlsTWQ)

------
ryanackley
Not sure why but Yelp always seems inaccurate to me. I also tried to write a
review once but it flagged it for some reason and it never appeared. It was a
3 star review too, neither exceptionally positive or negative.

I use TripAdvisor to find local places to eat. Usually the top 1 or 2 places
are good for a given type of food. Anything under that is a mixed bag.

------
ape4
On the other hand, I dealt with a company that was really deceptive and then
looked at the online reviews (not on Yelp). They were all glowing. But when I
looked more closely they all followed the same template and seemed to be
posted at 9:xx am every morning - like its somebody's job.

------
golemotron
I wonder what Yelp's recourse is for buying reviews? If it's de-listing, well,
that's exactly what the restaurant wants.

It would be interesting to see whether Yelp decides to exercise the power to
change someone's one-star review into a four-star review based on its content.

~~~
natnat
For some businesses, Yelp puts a big consumer alert on their business page
when they catch the businesses soliciting reviews on craigslist or whatever:
[http://officialblog.yelp.com/2012/10/consumer-alerts-
because...](http://officialblog.yelp.com/2012/10/consumer-alerts-because-you-
might-like-to-know.html)

------
dreamweapon
What's silly about this whole thing is that the solution for Yelp is so
obvious: Just acknowledge what everyone knows already -- that the current
system for managing and aggregating ratings has been a total flop -- i.e. that
99.99% of their users use Yelp for address search, NOT recommendations -- and
let business opt out of having their ratings listed (at no charge, of course)
-- until they come up with something that actually does work.

~~~
oskarth
Wouldn't it be a better business model to charge businesses to opt-out? Doing
this would provide them with more runway to come up with a sustainable
business model to leverage and monetize their crowdsourced reviews in a
creative manner. Seems like it would be more in line with their values, too.

EDIT: /s

~~~
dreamweapon
_Wouldn 't it be a better business model to charge businesses to opt-out?_

Most people would consider that blackmail. But the folks over at Yelp would
probably like that kind of thinking. Ever consider applying for a job with
their marketing team?

------
beachstartup
what's amazing to me is people still read the reviews on yelp. they're
completely worthless. it's a bunch of kids and wannabe snobs preening for each
other. i went through that phase - that's how i can recognize it.

now i just use it to search and get directions. its interface is still
superior for a quick lookup on my phone when i'm headed somewhere.

as soon as they require a login to use the mobile app, i'll probably stop
using it.

~~~
jff
You remember that girl in high school who was always talking about how Becky
was totally giving her this _look_ earlier, seriously you guys she's such a
bitch?

Yeah, she's 25 now and likes to write angry Yelp reviews whenever her water
glass level falls below 50%.

------
rondon2
I understand it does suck to have one or two idiot customers that will flip
out about something stupid and write a terrible review of your great
restaurant. But I think it would be better just to have no reviews at all on
Yelp. Is there anyway to ask yelp to remove your business. Can you not tell
yelp that the phone number and address they have listed are personal and no
longer a business and that yelp should remove them?

~~~
walterbell
It would break their court-approved business model, i.e. apply any algorithmic
filter that generates revenue for Yelp.

~~~
malka
ie. blackmail

------
acomjean
I've used yelp reviews with great success when traveling. The signal noise
ratio in urban areas is good enough to weed out the occasional bad review. I
look out for the really low rated ones and avoid. People aren't stupid, and
read online reviews with a certain amount of skepticism.

If they can survive with regulars thats fine for them.

I would avoid any place thats fighting any kind of reviews.

------
debt
I like the part at the end of the article where they ask is this Italian
restaurant any good anyhow(their reviews on Yelp being unhelpful at this
point, worthless).

I couldn't help but think if only there was a place on the web to find out
whether a business is worth the money or not.

------
don_draper
Is the restaurant claiming all review systems are broken? Do the owners ever
read reviews on Amazon or the general web? I don't think you should throw the
baby out with the bathwater.

~~~
kissickas
No, in the article it clearly states that the owners are getting "blackmailed"
by Yelp and have decided to retaliate, but otherwise think it (I assume a
rating website) is actually a good idea.

Edit: my apologies for any snark above, I just realized that the article I was
referencing was the one posted by jedberg.

[http://insidescoopsf.sfgate.com/blog/2014/09/17/richmond-
res...](http://insidescoopsf.sfgate.com/blog/2014/09/17/richmond-restaurant-
owner-encourages-bad-yelp-reviews/)

------
jonifico
That's a pretty good (and unorthodox) way to promote yourself and get some
free press. Never really trusted Yelp anyway, too many stupid people
pretending they're experts.

~~~
orbitur
It is untrustworthy when a restaurant has only 4 or 5 reviews, even if they're
written by "Yelp Pros". But when hundreds of people have "Checked In" at a
place, you can usually rely on the star count to give you a fairly accurate
estimation of how good it's going to be.

I've also noticed some cities are way more into it than others, making it more
reliable. Everyone in Halifax, NS depends on it, but when I visit my home
Little Rock, AR, it's worthless, even though Little Rock is technically a
larger city.

~~~
illumen
Yours seems like anecdotal evidence.

I've had great experiences without reviews or guides, and also with places
that aren't supposed to be good.

McDonalds is really popular, but I don't eat there.

~~~
orbitur
Well, luckily, I don't go to Yelp for fast food reviews. You are aware that
hundreds of people can review a local restaurant, yes?

------
ivancamilov
wait a minute, you can't force Yelp to remove your restaurant?! and I thought
we had retarded Internet laws in my country... here in Colombia, no business
can have your information without your consent. If they do, you can force them
to remove any records they have on you –it's a principle called Habeas Data.

------
Nursie
This won't work on people like me who may look at the star rating but have no
desire to read user reviews. You'll just be a one-star place and I'll dismiss
you out of hand..

~~~
alexjeffrey
but with all the publicity surrounding their actions, will they become more
well known which will in fact counteract their star rating on Yelp? My guess
is yes.

~~~
ganeumann
I think there's also an appeal to certain types of businesses like restaurants
when they don't act like corporate profit-maximizers.

------
squigs25
A large population of diners in this country do this when trying to find new
eating establishments:

1\. Searches google for a restaurant name 2\. Checks the number of stars Yelp
gives it in the Google result

or

1\. Searches "dinner" on yelp 2\. Clicks on the highest rated Yelp pages

For a popular restaurant with a fan following the Botto pizza strategy might
work. Generally speaking, ignoring your customer's needs and wants is a fast
path to complacency. And hopefully you're all aware that:

COMPLACENCY WILL BE THE ARCHITECTURE OF YOUR DOWNFALL.

Internalize that statement. While Botto's is cool today, adaptation is the key
to long term success.

Inevitably after serving each of their loyal customers many times over, the
customers will have a bad meal here or there. With an attitude of "The
customer is not always right", disagreements will leave customers disenchanted
one by one, and slowly these loyal customers will become less loyal. Or
another good Italian pizza place will open up. Or the italian food wants of
the neighborhood will change. Or Yelp's powerhold on connecting diners to
restaurants will grow stronger.

~~~
ganeumann
Option 1: pay attention to what popular and busy restaurant owner is doing to
promote his business.

Option 2: take advice from random HN commenter.

How to choose, how to choose...

~~~
squigs25
Option 1: Listen to the words of 1 successful business Option 2: Listen to the
words of many successful businesses

Yeah, I guess you're right that _thinking_ is too hard and we should simply
listen to a population with a sample size of 1.

