
11,000 year old ocher mine in underwater cave - Phithagoras
https://www.nationalgeographic.com/history/2020/07/11000-year-old-mine-underwater-cave-surprises-archaeologists/?cmpid=int_org=ngp::int_mc=website::int_src=ngp::int_cmp=substest::int_add=substestcontrol::int_rid=
======
sradman
HN July 4th thread _Scuba diver accidentally discovers prehistoric industrial
complex in Mexico_ [1], the original paper [2], and the spectacular underwater
footage included in a CBC News video [3] via joachimma [4]. Yesterday’s HN
thread [5].

[1]
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23730884](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23730884)

[2]
[https://advances.sciencemag.org/content/6/27/eaba1219.full](https://advances.sciencemag.org/content/6/27/eaba1219.full)

[3]
[https://www.cbc.ca/player/play/1760020035814/](https://www.cbc.ca/player/play/1760020035814/)

[4]
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23731910](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23731910)

[5]
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23808749](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23808749)

~~~
jointpdf
Seeing those preserved fire pits (in [3]) with the charcoal and wood intact is
wild. It looks similar to a campsite that someone used last weekend.

~~~
breals
Cave Diver here who's had a lot of dives in that area of Mexico. There is a
site call Chan Hol we dove, it has a human skelton/burial site about a 30 min
swim in and numerous fire pits. You can make out black marks on the
wall/ceiling and remains of the pit itself. They are all over this one cave,
it was very active.

The human skeleton is in what could only be called a burial site, it's very
high limestone slab, above what would have been the floor and could have been
only been placed there when the water table was much lower. The amount of
effort suggests a coordinated effort but it's debatable, not all the skeleton
is there.

A team of Mexican scientist radio-carbon dated the sites and the conclusion is
11,000 years ago. The body being an adult female.

------
ciguy
I'm a certified scuba diver, but cave divers are just a whole different level.
They have my respect but I also think they're a little bit crazy. Watching
some videos of these guys exploring that cave I was struck with just how
skilled and comfortable they are in the water.

~~~
fit2rule
I'm a blue water diver, and every time I see these kinds of stories I get
serious claustrophobia kicking in.. I wasn't always claustrophobic, just when
I started seeing divers doing deep caves, for some reason, pushes the button.

Serious willies factor.

~~~
wincy
This is a “good” read then. I thought it was really interesting. The pictures
of the entrance to the cave are so unassuming too. Just looks like a little
bit of dirty water next to some rocks.

[https://www.outsideonline.com/1922711/raising-
dead](https://www.outsideonline.com/1922711/raising-dead)

~~~
fit2rule
Nice one, yeah a tragic story and cave diving generally is definitely not a
hobby I can find myself getting into .. but interesting to hear of the
adventures of those with bigger balls .. although quite tragic.

------
princekolt
The website of the divers research institute has some neat 3D models of a
couple of mining sites: [https://www.cindaq.org/copy-of-sagitario-la-
mina](https://www.cindaq.org/copy-of-sagitario-la-mina)

------
saganus
Does anyone know if it's possible or even if it's already done, to sample the
air in the cave? (i.e. in the pockets that seem to be there).

Could that provide meaningful information on the atmosphere composition at the
time it the cave flooded?

------
barney54
I hope someone can explain the fascination with this story to me. I read it
when it was on the front page of HN on July 4th, but the story was less
interesting than the headline. I’d like to hear why others are so fascinated
with this story.

~~~
princekolt
From the research institute that made the discovery:
[https://www.cindaq.org/copy-of-sagitario-la-
mina](https://www.cindaq.org/copy-of-sagitario-la-mina)

WHY IT’S IMPORTANT:

* The discovery has the potential to help us understand the social and behavioral complexities of the region’s earliest inhabitants.

* This new research shows ochre was of great, if not critical, importance to the culture and lives of Paleoamericans, given they were willing to take such enormous risks to get it. Red ochre is the most commonly identified inorganic paint, used throughout human history. It’s considered to be a key component of human evolutionary development and behavioral complexity. Ochre minerals were collected for use in rock paintings, mortuary practices, painted objects and personal adornment. They may even have had medicinal qualities.

* The mining activity from more than 10,000 years ago also shows the early application of geological principles that were only documented 400 years ago.

* Together with the exploration of Hoyo Negro, where the remains of Naia were found, the exploration of these caves is advancing research techniques, especially using 3D photogrammetry and virtual reality.

* The abundance and diversity of animal and plant remains found in these submerged caves enables scientists to recreate what the environment was like for Ice Age Americans.

------
zackbloom
If anyone would like to get involved with cave diving, it’s somewhat
accessible. For about $5k in training, $5k in equipment, and perhaps four
weeks of time you can gain the experience and certification necessary to dive
caves.

~~~
Tyr42
I thought that cave diving was much more dangerous than scuba diving. 4 weeks
really?

~~~
Ductapemaster
It is incredibly dangerous in comparison (as a scuba diver). These courses
generally have a requirement of being a very competent diver (hundreds of
logged dives, for example) and they just won't pass you if you don't know what
you're doing. Cave divers take things very seriously.

~~~
breals
I have a "full cave" card and about 100 post-certification cave dives. I have
been actively ocean diving and even doing wreck diving, which are overhead
environments, but I haven't been in a cave in 10 years. I still likely take a
refresher/checkout course to polish my skills with an instructor just to be
safe if I wanted to cave dive again. Your instincts are what can kill you in a
cave diving.

But it's worth it, you visit places that few people have seen with their own
eye and it's safe if you follow the rules.

------
wsc981
This episode of the Joe Rogan podcast is with "master builder and
architectural designer, teacher, geometrician, geomythologist, geological
explorer and renegade scholar" Randall Carlson.

Randall talks a lot about a flood happening ~12.000 years ago, during a period
known as "The Younger Dryas"
([https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Younger_Dryas](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Younger_Dryas)).

Key moments for anyone who doesn't want to watch the 3 full hours are:

0:04:16 Homo sapiens idaltu, oldest modern human skeleton> 7000 generations of
humans

0:05:45 new discoveries lending credence to Graham Hancock's thesis

0:06:22 Gobekli Tepe

0:07:30 Tunguska Event, speed and kinetic punch

0:08:27 Possible reason for purposely burying of Gobekli Tepe

0:11:15 Cleopatra < Great Pyramids

0:12:28 Scale of potential loss of human civilisation due to massive impact
event(s)

0:14:20 Oxygen isotopes in Greenland, summit ice core samples

0:17:18 Implications for our modern mainstream model of climate change induced
catastrophe

0:24:00 The limited scope of the modern climate change debate/'consensus' view
and the danger of that, see 0:38:38

0:26:25 Greenland Ice Sheet project history

0:27:31 Little Ice Age, important context

0:29:00 Two periods of global cooling in the last two thousand years

0:30:32 Holy Grail Quest Stories

0:31:33 Dendrochronologists' discovery of stunted forest growth in northern
hemisphere in the period of the Grail Quest for 8-10 years, supported by
historical records of the time leading to Justinian Plague

0:33:20 Recovery, brought on by return of warmth, 900AD, medieval warm period

0:35:06 Cathedral building phenomenon, ended by Little Ice Age, Black plague

0:38:38 Why are we ignoring this evidence? The problem with the IPCC

0:40:59 The real Inconvenient Truth

0:42:00 Eemian interglacial period temperature oscillations

0:42:22 Oboriginal tales past down through oral tradition about sea levels,
analyses by archaeologist W. Bruce Massey

0:45:59 Younger Dryas

0:47:56 Rate of sea level rise, not smooth

0:48:43 Late Pleistocene mortality graph, ~120 species of mega mammals went
extinct

0:50:00 Dominant hypothesis of "overkill" or "blitzkrieg" to explain the
extinction of the mammoths..

0:52:13 Founding fathers of geology > new school of thought, catastrophism v
uniformitarianism

0:54:49 J. Harlen Bretz' proposition of gigantic floods in pacific North West
being ignored by peers in 1920

0:56:12 Transition in earth sciences incorporating parts of Bretz his
findings, but with a modern example that doesn't scale or compare with Bretz'
findings; the new dogma

0:59:36 Joe mentions the problem with the "overkill" hypothesis and Randall
adds to it

1:00:05 One of the many mammoth cemeteries

1:01:50 Joe is spooked by Randall's snorting and tries to play it off by
referring to the drawing of the "ivory floor" of the London docks covered in
Siberian mammoth tusks

1:07:07 Joe asks for Randall's desktop wallpaper, Randall keeps him in
suspense for a little longer, shows satellite photo instead

1:11:00 Canada didn't exist

1:14:41 The Bering Strait during Ice Age is exposed, connecting Siberia to
North America, 14000-15000yrs ago

1:15:54 Indonesia, modern day v Ice Age

1:16:55 Hundreds of stories that parallel the story of Noah, coinciding with
the existing data

1:19:09 if we accept that the stories are based on real events, what do the
parts of the persons with foreknowledge imply?

1:19:53 Europe now v during Ice Age, ~15000 yrs ago

1:20:35 Mt. Jumbo, Missoula, Western Montana, shorelines reaching to tops of
the hillside

1:21:27 Latreurolle Falls, Basalt layers

1:23:53 West (boulder) Bar giant current ripples, 50ft high

1:25:54 New trend in evidence, geological community is moving in the direction
of Randall's assertion, some of the older guard is defending the idea of the
jökulhlaups, group of Canadian geologists, John Shaw et al., are challenging
this

1:27:50 Where the water for these massive floods came from, asteroidal impact

1:28:45 Impact craters of the last 10.000 yrs, potentially causing massive
tsunami's

1:30:45 Modern consensus view of the Younger Dryas, exact match with Plato's
account of the subsiding of Atlantis beneath the waves

1:34:20 Recent research, shock-synthesized hexagonal diamonds in Younger Dryas
boundary sediments, micro-diamonds, nuclear glass all correlates with massive
cosmic impacts

1:35:40 Overspecialisation in modern science, pro's and cons

1:40:02 Listing recent discoveries supporting Younger Dryas cosmic impact
hypothesis and narrowing down date to 12.800-12.900yrs ago

1:42:37 Randall mentions gratification as he theorised this 25yrs ago and Joe
asks how he became so obsessed with this

1:52:58 What this all means for our species, on a larger scale, big picture,
according to Randall

1:53:41 Emerging evidence human population crashed during Younger Dryas

1:55:16 Book of Matthew interesting quote where Jesus talk about what the end
of days will look like, what it implies

1:58:33 The moral to all of this, what should we do in terms of consumption of
Earth's resources and what to direct our collective efforts at

2:01:34 Error of gradualism in the environmental movement

2:03:27 We'd be fucked without Jupiter

2:03:53 Sacred Geometry and Freemasonry

2:06:58 Difference between modern and ancient architecture, "textbooks in
stone"

2:08:48 What is the Masonic Order, "secrets of Freemasons", Masonic traditions

2:12:30 Freemasons as custodians of ancient symbolism, Noah's ark, acacia
tree, DMT

2:16:15 DMT as a boon to mankind and the mistake of criminalising it

2:21:34 Climatic optimum after population crash/ Ice Age

2:25:14 Climate shifts again into neo-glaciation, 6000yrs ago

2:27:40 Traumatic effect on consciousness as result of surviving near-
extinction event, perhaps gene-deep

2:29:44 insert ''aliens'' meme

2:30:26 Responds hypothetically by calling back to the "7000 generations of
modern humans" point and potential advancements of past civilisations, kicks
off from there

2:37:58 Freedom to innovate stifled by bureaucracy, encumbering creative
processes

2:40:39 Resistance motivates action

2:42:32 parable about making your own way

2:44:05 Why the name "Sacred Geometry"

2:44:56 Architecture, geometry, of our solar system is in perfect balance to
allow for us to exist; Jupiter, Saturn, Uranus and Neptune via bucket
mechanism deliver Panspermia to Earth

2:50:02 (Hypothetical) New Jerusalem as representation of our solar system,
furlongs, horse racing, 7920, miles, numbers math my brain

~~~
TimSchumann
Wrong thread?

~~~
wsc981
Definitely not. Since the time period of when these caves were mined is around
the same time a big flood might have happened.

