
Exposing high-end poker cheating devices - revicon
https://www.elie.net/blog/security/fuller-house-exposing-high-end-poker-cheating-devices
======
Animats
The casino industry knew all about this in 2014.[1]

 _" Right now there is some scary technology coming out of China that
incorporates IR marked cards, concealed cameras and computer analyzers.
Combined to create a high-tech card marking system, I must say that this
device could do for cheats what silicon did for the cosmetic surgery business.
The devices are being marketed as poker analyzers."_

 _" The technology works like this. The long edge of every card in the deck is
marked with an invisible IR marking. Each mark identifies an individual card.
In collusion with a poker dealer, the special marked deck is swapped into
play. The player sits opposite the dealer on the table. He positions a
concealed camera on the table (usually disguised as a cell phone). The camera
has an IR lens that is used to transmit an image of the edge of the deck of
cards to a small computer located in a smart phone (the poker analyzer) in his
pocket. The image is transmitted during the period after the dealer has
shuffled the cards and the deck is resting in front of the dealer before cards
are dealt to the players. The IR snapshot of the cards looks like a barcode.
The poker analyzer identifies every card in the order that they will be dealt
to the players in less than a second. A computer-generated voice message is
sent to the player via a Bluetooth mini earpiece communicating the rankings of
all the hands on the table."_

And the countermeasures:

 _" Most surveillance cameras, in their natural state, actually have infrared
viewing capabilities. The problem is the picture is not so good, so
manufacturers add a cut filter over the CCD chip to block out infrared light.
... A number of major surveillance camera systems provide end users the
ability to remotely change the IR status of the camera via the operator’s
keyboard. This allows the operator who suspects someone is marking cards at a
table to use a PTZ camera assigned to the table to switch to IR mode so the
cards can be checked live on the game. If you currently don’t have this
feature, speak to your manufacturer."_

[1]
[http://ggbmagazine.com/issue/vol-13-no-2-february-2014/artic...](http://ggbmagazine.com/issue/vol-13-no-2-february-2014/article/surveillance-
report-on-your-mark)

~~~
CamperBob2
I guess my thinking is that if you own the dealer _and_ the deck of cards, the
game is already over. There are bound to be easier ways to cheat under those
circumstances than adding a Rube Goldberg contraption into the mix.

~~~
dsmithatx
You would be right. I used to run poker games myself. Basically home games
that people find out about through meetup etc. While I never condoned cheating
and only made money on rake, I had dealers who would offer to cheat. They
basically used anything from simple slight of hand tactics to brazenly just
stealing chips. The alcohol is always free at the games and bad dealers will
pass around drugs to any willing victims.

Some will organize with a group of 5-6 people. They basically come in and
collude with a lot of cash to rob the other 4-5 sitting at the table. Once I
realized how pervasive cheaters were I stopped playing and hosting games. I
was trusted by the cheats and could have worked with them. I didn't think it
was worth losing morals over nor the risk. Soon the higher end games started
getting straight up robbed at gunpoint.

------
drited
An interesting bit of computer history trivia is that Claude Shannon co-
invented the first wearable computer with Ed Thorp to beat roulette in Vegas
in 1961. It used a button in the shoe as an input device for the user to
record the speed and location of the ball which was used to infer the likely
ending location using orbital decay algorithms. An auditory signal was then
sent by wire to an earpiece to let the user know where to place bets (it
wasn't pinpoint accurate - the user would bet on 8 numbers which still gave
him a positive expected value).

The story around that is really fun, recounted in this paper:
[https://www.cs.virginia.edu/~evans/thorp.pdf](https://www.cs.virginia.edu/~evans/thorp.pdf)

Versions of the same device from this century use lasers to get a more
accurate read on the ball's location, with one group using the system to net
£1m from London's Casinos:
[http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/4069629.stm](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/4069629.stm)

Thorp was also involved in developing the Blackjack system that was showcased
in the film 21 and later ran a hedge fund, details on which were recounted in
his interview for this book [https://www.amazon.com/Hedge-Fund-Market-Wizards-
Winning/dp/...](https://www.amazon.com/Hedge-Fund-Market-Wizards-
Winning/dp/1118273044). Very interesting guy.

~~~
oskarth
Ed Thorp is a very interesting guy indeed. His Memoirs are coming out in the
beginning of next year but there's a foreword written by Nassim Taleb that
gives a good taste of Thorp: [https://medium.com/@nntaleb/foreword-to-ed-
thorps-memoirs-a-...](https://medium.com/@nntaleb/foreword-to-ed-thorps-
memoirs-a-man-for-all-markets-6beba78cd2b#.pty00tqyo)

------
ctvo
I haven't been to a casino that allows a phone on the table in ages,
especially in Asia. Not only that, but most decks are tightly controlled in
reputable casinos.

This is more for backroom games (which are still lucrative), but get caught
cheating in those and you'll regret it quickly.

~~~
dopamean
I played 2/5 NLH at the Venetian in June of 2015 and had my phone on the table
most of the time. I had earbuds in and would check twitter and text friends
playing at other tables between hands. No one seemed to have a problem with it
and I wasn't the only person doing something like that. I never thought it
would be a problem actually.

~~~
jamoes
The cheating device in this article also required a marked deck. So as long as
the house isn't in on it, this cheating method wouldn't work in casinos.

The article did mention that some anonymous sources claim to be using these
devices in Vegas casinos, so I wonder of there are some corrupt dealers in
cahoots with the cheaters.

~~~
forgettableuser
There was a British show called The Real Hustle where the cast basically
performs real world scams on people filmed with hidden cameras. One year, they
went to Vegas.

In one of their most brazen scams, they gathered a crew to swap the card shoe
at a casino table. It's amazing how much damage nerves of steel, team work,
and a split second distraction can lead to.

This particular scam starts at about 22 minutes:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ixUvZjIK_Ms](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ixUvZjIK_Ms)

The expert at the end does mention it is likely bribing dealers and camera
operators would be the most likely scenario since the payout is large enough
to make it affordable to do.

~~~
smcnally
Ballsy and dangerous coördinating that many people to execute something like
this. Cool show with the play-by-play shot well / from multiple angles to
explain it all. Will check out more of it.

~~~
orbat
_coördinating_

Completely, unabashedly unrelated, but I honestly can't remember the last time
I saw dieresis in the wild. Is this a regional thing?

~~~
asymmetric
That's how It's spelled in The New Yorker, for example.

~~~
smcnally
The New Yorker is precisely where I saw & adopted the dieresis way back when.
It's also simpler to type on vkeyboards than a hyphen -- click-and-hold vs
switching layouts and back.

------
daenz
If I bought a device like this, with the clear amount of skill and effort that
went into its functions, I would never plug it into a computer, ever.

~~~
alsetmusic
Good point. I also wouldn't ever use it on the same network as any other
private devices or use any of its services with private data (as noted, it is
a fully functional phone - I would assume that it phones home regardless of my
ability to detect it). Sure, the manufacturer would hurt their business by
ripping off their clients, but we've already established loose ethics.

------
paulsutter
TL/DR: phone-like device for reading specially marked cards using infrared

~~~
yborg
It actually works as a phone, too, though.

~~~
scurvy
I wouldn't trust this device as a phone, especially not as a smartphone. You
couldn't pay me to associate it with a trusted wifi network, put my SIM in
there, or actually use an app.

~~~
necessity
Might as well put it in a Faraday cage then as it could be sending your
precise location to the FBI...

------
dasil003
The article says this device is used to cheat in Vegas, but I don't see how
that would be possible since you have to bring your own cards. It's hard to
imagine casinos colluding on this, so I guess they're talking about private
games that happen to be in Vegas?

~~~
lopatin
Most places won't let you have your phone anywhere near the table. Awesome
technology, just not built I think for Vegas.

~~~
xapata
I've never played at a place that banned phones. That casino probably wouldn't
have many players.

~~~
rblatz
At every casino I've been to they will yell at you if you pull your phone out
at any table game. If you want to respond to a text you need to step away from
the table and wait a hand/spin to bet again.

~~~
xapata
You shouldn't be fiddling with your phone when the action is on you. Using
your phone while you're out of the hand is totally fine.

~~~
gozur88
Most places I've played won't let you use the phone at the table, and if
you're using it they'll deal you out and ask you to get up.

But they don't care if your phone is on the table.

I think this is more to keep the game moving than any concern about cheating.

------
Luc
The technique with the markings on the edge of the card is also used in a well
known card magic routine - but using wax instead of infrared ink, so you can
feel the slight differences in texture when you handle the card (though only
if you're paying attention to it).

Takes quite a bit of practice, though.

------
asdf_jkl
This is an impressive breakdown of an even more impressive device.
Realtime(ish) cheating software running on custom concealed hardware in a
lookalike device? Used for scamming high rollers in private games? Color me
fascinated.

I wonder how long this has been around. I would be very interested to hear
from anyone who knows how long these have been available/prevalent. My
apologies if this is somewhere in the video, I have not been able to watch it
yet.

------
breitling
You could never take this into a real casino. The cameras would pickup the
infrared signals. The security guys would know something is up since a regular
phone doesn't do that.

~~~
nom
Good point, but it works with marked cards so you essentially have to have
control over the deck anyways. It can't work in an official game by a player,
the house has to be in on it.

My guess: this device is used to rip off players in backroom games. Marked
cards are nothing new. The only novelty here is that the system is hard to
detect if you don't know about it. This thing could be completely stealthy
though, I suspect that you only have to turn on the infrared LEDs if the
environment not lit well. And even that can probably be solved by using a more
expensive camera module...

------
pjc50
Previously, decades ago, the state of the art in roulette cheating:
[https://www.amazon.co.uk/Newtonian-Casino-Penguin-Press-
Scie...](https://www.amazon.co.uk/Newtonian-Casino-Penguin-Press-
Science/dp/0140145931)

~~~
Steeeve
That's interesting. I dealt roulette occasionally in my younger years ('90s)
and we had 3 different sized balls to work with if we sensed someone getting a
little too lucky.

I don't know the inner workings of casinos in the modern day, but back then we
had a lot of ways to deal with cheating. I'm sure there were pros that we
never noticed, but the people who read how to count cards and decided to try
it out were easy to spot and deal with. I remember one time the pit boss
telling me over my shoulder "that's enough, bring it in" and I said "I'm
trying!" because I actually was. I had dumped most of my tray of chips (not
all that much on a $25 table) and it was very obvious we had 2 people at the
table working on the rookie dealer.

He pushed me out for my twenty minute break twenty minutes early and when I
came back the tray was full and the players were surly. I commented "what
happened to all your chips?" and the guy on third base stood up, pointed to
the dealer that replaced me, and said "that bitch took it all". Cue security
and the table cleared out just about instantly.

A few of the things we could do to change things up on a blackjack table:

\- burn extra cards

\- change the shuffle

\- new deck of cards

\- prematurely end a hand

\- encourage non-standard play from the other players

\- encourage a player to walk away

When I ran into the players I mentioned above, I only knew about burning extra
cards. You pick up other ways from other dealers who've been around longer and
want you to pull your weight by bringing in better tips.

For roulette, there were just the two ways (changing the ball, stop and start
the wheel), but it was pretty rare for me to deal that game, so who knows.

~~~
caf
Counting cards is not actually cheating.

~~~
Steeeve
No. It's perfectly legal. And the counters you can notice are generally pretty
bad at it anyways.

Still, it's discouraged. The casinos would much rather a weekend tourist walk
away with a day of winnings than a pro. Tourists tell their friends and
inspire them to visit.

~~~
caf
The bad counters are probably losing money anyway, it doesn't take many
mistakes per hour to lose the tiny edge counting can give you.

~~~
dsmithatx
A very skilled counter I know in real life made over 6 figures a year. She
played 7-8 months out of the year 8 hours a day 5 days a week. Bets sized from
$25-$100 generally. It's not illegal but, once you are identified you are
banned from all casinos in Vegas at least. They use facial recognition and
catch you walking in the door. There is one guy that works for all casinos and
recognizes faces manually along with the FR equipment. My friend mostly only
played in Mississippi and other states in the East.

------
fencepost
This seems like it'd be mostly used in private games, of which I'm sure there
are a huge number. Many of those are probably also going to be pretty high
stakes, and if someone loses a bunch they may not be inclined to go to
authorities and claim cheating - if said authorities would do anything
anyways. ("Awww, you lost your money in an off the books backroom private
game? Perhaps next time you'd like to try one of our fine professionally run
casinos.").

I suspect that most casinos are set up with surveillance designed to catch
point source IR LED illumination these days.

~~~
emodendroket
Well, if the movies are to be believed, while that may be true, you're liable
to get your ass kicked.

------
daodedickinson
Hmm with an incredible enough camera you theoretically ought to be able to see
and then memorize idiosyncracies per card with any deck and then take it to
Vegas at any table. I'd say its possible now, although too slow and expensive
and obviously seeing the same card as the same card from every side is the
hardest part. The camera and light would probably be a fair amount larger,
too.

~~~
manarth
With an _unmarked_ deck, I don't believe the technology currently exists.

I would accept that at a given magnification, every card is unique (including
when viewed from the side), and can be uniquely identified.

But without a marked deck, it would need one (probably more than one) run
through the deck, to see the value of a card and associate it with an image of
the side of the card. Bear in mind you only get to record cards that are
shown, so it could potentially take many games to record the full deck, and
that's assuming the deck stays consistent.

But even with multiple run-throughs of the deck, I don't think we have the
technology to produce that high resolution a camera in a small enough form-
factor. Even putting aside expense, the trick here is pre-marked decks, with
markings visible only to IR.

Without that, we'd need serious advancements in lenses and sensors before we
could have a tool that was discreet enough to pull out at a game.

~~~
Tuna-Fish
> Bear in mind you only get to record cards that are shown, so it could
> potentially take many games to record the full deck, and that's assuming the
> deck stays consistent.

Depending on what game you are playing, you don't need to mark anywhere near
the full deck. In hold'em, you can get a definite edge if you manage to mark
two aces.

The primary problem is optics. All optical devices are limited by the
quantization of light. No matter how good your camera technology, if there are
not enough photons bouncing off a target, you cannot see it accurately. Modern
cameras (and even your eyes!) are much closer to the hard limits placed by
physics than most people think. In the case of a side of a card in not very
well lit indoors, I don't think you can discern enough detail without either a
large lens or a long exposure, both of which could be hard to pull off inside
a casino.

Even painted on markings, they need a bright IR light to pull this off at a
close distance. Similarly, your camera would need a bright light source.

------
soheil
Before reading this entire post (fairly long) a quick note, this only works
with specially marked decks not just any deck of cards.

------
blhack
How do people find these "underground forums" and things like that? This
fascinates me so much.

~~~
Biganon
Tor, probably

~~~
dsmithatx
It's been done via IRC using hacked proxies and VPN forever now. I got in the
underground trading scene around 1993. Back in those days I doubt a single Fed
knew what IRC even stood for. Now they have infiltrated everything.

------
Vexs
I heard something some time ago about casinos marking their cards with rfid
chips to avoid cheating. I wonder if you could make something to read those
RFID chips.

~~~
scurvy
They just tag the boxed decks so they can verify chain of custody and control.

------
at-fates-hands
I think it would be easier to count cards then to rely on something like this.
Sure, you're still working with odds, but then you don't have a device and
marked cards which limits your exposure to having something horrible happen to
you in some back room game.

~~~
umanwizard
The article talks about this in the context of poker, not blackjack.

~~~
emodendroket
It also says it can be used for multiple games though.

------
exabrial
I can't believe the manufacturer agreed to send them the device! Pretty
amazing technology.

~~~
mysterypie
> I can't believe the manufacturer agreed to send them the device!

The way I understood the article, the manufacturer assumed the guy was a
normal "legitimate" customer. They did not expect the guy to do a teardown of
the device and write an exposé.

------
netman21
Why not just OCR the faces of any deck with a side reading camera like the
ones used for archival purposes to digitize really old books?

------
Magnets
What's the range on that camera? I can't imagine it's more than 20-30 cm

------
majortennis
TL;DR tampered deck.

------
harigov
Why would you specifically mention "Chinese made" in the title? The actual
article has a different title. Also, why does the fact that this device is
made in China says anything about the device itself?

~~~
colinplamondon
Half of the entire article is about the difficulties of acquiring the
(Chinese!) device, him trying to figure out if this is actually a real device
(only made in China!), and eventually going direct to a factory (which is in
China!).

Read first, virtue signal second.

~~~
sctb
It's the author's right and responsibility to accurately advertise the
article, not the submitter's. We've updated the title from “High end, Chinese
made, poker cheating device”.

> _Otherwise please use the original title, unless it is misleading or
> linkbait._

[https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html](https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html)

------
georgiecasey
i presume this would be about the online poker bots taking over the low level
stake tables

------
daodedickinson
I'd wager the engineers behind this have thought a lot about voting machines,
except I'd bet they'd find a way to cheat me out of both of these gambles.

------
manav
This is pretty silly. No casinos or card rooms let you have a phone/device at
the table.

That aside, you need to have a special marked deck. People have tried
something similar with flourescent ink and special glasses. I think
professional shuffling devices have some kind of built in blacklight check now
for this. IR is a bit better since its harder to detect without a camera. You
would still need to have a tub of ink and manually mark the cards though.

You'd basically need to have the dealer in on it, and if that is the case you
don't really need the device at all.

A more interesting method from a few decades ago that actually worked was
"edge sorting". Because of printing/cutting one could determine certain cards.
[http://deadspin.com/how-phil-ivey-beat-or-maybe-cheated-a-
ca...](http://deadspin.com/how-phil-ivey-beat-or-maybe-cheated-a-casino-for-
mill-1562993963)

~~~
joosters
_This is pretty silly._

Someone has gone to extreme lengths to build these things and people pay lots
of money for them. And yet your first instinct is to declare it useless.

When you can't see the point of something, maybe it is because you are
cleverer than all the other fools, or maybe it is because you don't know as
much as you think you do. It is very telling when people automatically assume
they are the smartest.

~~~
graffitici
The "Chesterton's fence" experiment comes to mind..

[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Chesterton%27s_fen...](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Chesterton%27s_fence)

------
midgetjones
Why is everyone treating this like it's real?

Isn't this sort of overly-long, overly-detailed, yet still totally vague blog
post just a clever way to get people to transfer $2000 via Western Union to a
stranger?

~~~
throwaway1X2
If it is a con, it is the longest long con you could ever invent.

1) Work hard, become a chief of anti-abuse team at Google.

2) Work harder, publish several papers ranging from self published papers
about hacking Heartstone to multi-author papers at conferences like WWW.

3) Create a scam device, describe it in detail.

4) Go present it with you own face and name to the DEFCON.

5) Write a blogpost about the said non-existent device.

Rake in the 2000 USD (which is reeeeally big fat reward for all your effort,
risk and credibility) wired to a stranger in China who isn't even identified
in the blog... You win a prize.

~~~
throwaway1X2
PS:
[https://scholar.google.com/citations?hl=en&user=Ayw4GsAAAAAJ](https://scholar.google.com/citations?hl=en&user=Ayw4GsAAAAAJ)

