
The Brutal Ageism of Tech (2014) - goodJobWalrus
http://www.newrepublic.com/article/117088/silicons-valleys-brutal-ageism
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dang
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7930428](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7930428)

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datashovel
It looks like 488 days ago that was posted. What would you say a good re-post
timeline would be? (of interesting topics that is)

~~~
dang
Once a story has had significant attention, about a year.

[https://news.ycombinator.com/newsfaq.html](https://news.ycombinator.com/newsfaq.html)

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copsarebastards
There's a flipside to this: middle-aged-to-old people aren't choosing to
participate in the silicon valley startup culture. As superuser2 noted, a
22-year-old can subsist on ramen while living in a car, while a 45-year-old
can't ask his wife and children to do that. But it runs deeper than that: just
because a 22-year-old can subsist on ramen while living in a car doesn't mean
it's a rational choice.

Most startups these days are producing glorified ad servers that don't
actually solve any problems or provide any value. The tech bubble is such that
anyone with a young face, a Macbook Pro, and a dumb idea can get funded, but
that won't last. As such, working 60 hour weeks for stock that will be
worthless in a decade is a bad idea for anyone, regardless of age. Software
devs in their 40s have the self-respect and experience that they won't take
that kind of deal.

There are some startups which have reasonable business models, but I suspect
that time will show that part of those reasonable business models is
recognizing the value of experience. In the long run 45-year-old programmer
with 25 years of experience working 40 hours a week is easily worth two
22-year-old programmers with 2 years of experience working 60 hours a week.
There are certainly young prodigies and ideas which hit the zeitgeist so well
that the execution of the idea barely matters, but these are outliers, not the
norm.

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asdf83990
A lot of you reading this are probably in your 20s, thinking that age 40 is
impossibly far off. Secretly (whether you would say it out loud or not), you
may be thinking that you will be rich at that point, possibly the VC that gets
to judge and fund the 20 and 30-something entrepreneurs of the future.

The likelihood of this happening is extraordinarily low. The question you
should ask yourself is, what kind of tech industry do I want to be a part of
in 20 years? Are young people really smarter, or just more manipulable to the
(likely non-technical) MBAs looking for lots of cheap labor and ebullient
attitudes?

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Futurebot
A few things about this:

1) This is why it's important to try to make your fortune early. Most won't,
but try anyway.

2) Never stop learning. Everyone has to become lifelong learners in this new
hyper-competitive economy. Even moreso for those with traditional
"disadvantages" like being considered too old. Keep up with trends, keep
reading those whitepapers, go back and review the basics every so often (this
is a good idea anyway, IMO), learn at least the basics of the new whiz-bang
thing that comes out (even if it's just the "hello world" equivalent), and
generally keep yourself "interview ready."

3) Physical appearance matters. They may not be able to ask your age, but they
can look at you, and they'll form an opinion whether it's conscious or
subconscious. Though many find it distasteful, it is the reality. That means
consider carefully whether smoking/alcohol/other intoxicants that affect your
physical appearance are worth it. It also behooves you to keep a regular
exercise schedule. Cosmetic surgery is also an option; there are many tells
for age you can fix: eyelid and eyebrow droop, under-eye and various other
facial lines, hanging chin. Hair dye and grafts are also worth considering, as
a receded hairline and whites/grays are obvious tells.

4) It probably goes without saying to keep up your professional network.

5) Another distasteful one, but perhaps worth thinking about: if you're
someone who is in the age bracket that is often considered "very likely to
have a family", but you don't (especially if you don't ever plan to), state
it. Signaling that you don't have large, difficult-to-discharge obligations
could give you the edge you need. You may get mentally re-bracketed. I haven't
tried this one, since I'm not yet in the bracket nor do I appear to be, but I
would probably do so if I was.

6) Companies that are truly hard up for good people (and not just the "we
can't hire (at the wage we wish to pay)" companies) will just have to be more
flexible. Maybe they already are.

~~~
notacoward
Overall, your message seems to be that we shouldn't try to do anything about
ageism. Try to be immune to it (1), or try to fake being young/childless (3
and 5), or get what you can despite it (6). Just as a thought experiment,
consider how that would sound if we were talking about race, gender, or sexual
orientation. Then (3) is like saying that people who aren't straight and white
and male should try to minimize their differences from that "ideal", and (6)
sounds like only companies that can't hire enough SWMs need to consider anyone
else. Would you also promote skin-lightening or breast-reduction surgery to
because they eliminate "obvious tells"?

Age should _not_ be the one bias that's still acceptable, and that we can't
talk about fixing. Advice about how to live in an ageist world might be
pragmatic, but telling people to accommodate it at all costs is practically
the same as condoning it.

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Futurebot
I don't think a list of practical tips for dealing with the reality is
condoning anything, anymore than telling people to wear a bulletproof vest is
condoning getting shot. I've posted stories about ageism previously. I don't
think you'll find me 'condoning' it anytime soon. Example:

[http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/27/your-money/unemployed-
and-...](http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/27/your-money/unemployed-and-older-
and-facing-a-jobless-future.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0)

I am realistic about it, though. I think it's something that we're going to
have a very, very hard time dealing with. More obvious ones - like the ones
you've listed - have been hard enough so far, and the struggles around them
continue daily. Age? Yeah, that's going to be seriously challenging to combat.
I'm all for trying to fight it, I just don't see the likelihood of good
results anytime soon.

~~~
notacoward
When you propose drastic measures like surgery, I think it crosses that line.
If you don't believe me, why don't you either answer my question or explain
why the analogy to sex/race/gender discrimination doesn't apply? Why would you
not propose cosmetic surgery to cope with the "manifest reality" of being
black or female? (Besides fear of the repercussions if you did, that is.) Why
is one "realistic" when the other is clearly out of bounds?

Any complete list of suggestions would include at least a few items aimed at
challenging the bias. It doesn't have to be "systemic change"; it could just
be calling out the behavior in a specific environment or context. Maybe that
would work and maybe it wouldn't, but the same could be said of your "just fit
in" suggestions. When the list is so one-sided, it implies that acceptance is
the _only logical course_. That's wrong. It's not enough to admit that ageism
exists (and then only when challenged). If you don't acknowledge the _need for
change_ then you're part of the problem.

P.S. Since you keep re-editing what I'm responding to instead of adding new
responses, putting it off isn't so great either. Yeah, sure, we'll start
thinking about justice some day. We have more important things to worry about
this week, right?

~~~
Futurebot
Unlike those other areas, which I think can be combatted through cultural
change and pressure, ageism is one that I think will remain a great deal more
stubborn and resistant to change, and I don't feel that I have anything really
useful to suggest other than "be aware of it and try not to be ageist." I
could certainly be wrong, and I hope am. I just don't feel particularly
hopeful about it. There's a comparable bias I don't think societies will have
much luck with, either: "ugliness bias":

[http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB100014240529702036875045766553...](http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424052970203687504576655331418204842)

[http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/economics/8765360/Does-
be...](http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/economics/8765360/Does-being-ugly-
make-you-poor.html)

I just don't see good ways of fixing that. (There's also "height bias", but I
actually think that one might be fixable culturally.)

Edit: I know it seems defeatist, and maybe it is, but it's an area I just
don't feel hopeful about.

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datashovel
Not that this article is necessarily about entrepreneurism, but just general
"ageism" in SV. I see this as an opportunity rather than a problem. Leaves a
lot of room for older entrepreneurs without anyone backing their idea (or
anyone willing to take them in as an employee). Sure it will require ambition
beyond even a typical entrepreneur, but I have a hunch that those people (the
ones who could not find a place in an established company because of his/her
age) will be the ones who receive pitches in SV in the not-too-distant future.

~~~
superuser2
Then entrepreneurship culture needs to change, a _lot_. A 22-year-old can
subsist on Ramen while living in a car. A 45-year-old can't ask his wife and
children to do that.

Startups staffed/founded by middle-aged people are going to have to pay
drastically better wages, and investors are going to have to be okay with
that.

~~~
hugh4
A 45 year old who had been working in a professional capacity ought to have
enough savings that he need not live off ramen if he chooses to make a minimal
income for a few years.

~~~
superuser2
Well, technically, but when the startup fails he may be unable to retire or
send his kids to college (or both). Risk appetites change. Someone that age
should have savings, but not necessarily savings they can afford to lose.

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graycat
Being an employee is a super tough way to get financial security. Really, the
theme in the US today is to be a business owner, in part or in whole.

On the Internet, no one knows if you are a dog, a man, or an old dog or man.
So, if you have a business that is in tech, say, a Web site or an app, the
users/customers need not know anything about the owner's age.

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erik_landerholm
I'm 38. The only issue I have with older engineers is they sometimes get stuck
in a rut and don't want to learn new things as much. But, it's definitely not
all of them, but in my experience it's more common among people over the age
of 35 or so.

~~~
dave_ops
That's a terrible Faustian Bargain. The choice between someone who doesn't
want to learn new things and someone for whom everything is new.

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arkem
Not that it takes away from the point but this passage:

    
    
      Unfortunately, the problems the average 22-year-old male programmer has experienced
      are all about being an affluent single guy in Northern California.
      That’s how we’ve ended up with so many games (Angry Birds, Flappy Bird,
      Crappy Bird) and all those apps for what one start-up founder described
      to me as cooler ways to hang out with friends on a Saturday night.
    

Strikes me as odd as neither Angry Birds nor Flappy Bird were make by people
in California and I doubt either games' core audience is 22 year old
technologists.

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cblock811
If they bent over backwards for older people it wouldnt be ageism. It would be
about respecting "experience" and the old boys club. Sure its not ok to be
rude, but this is also a product of showing that things have changed.

~~~
notacoward
That's a big "if" there. Nobody's suggesting that anyone bend over backwards
for older people, only that they stop bending over forwards for younger ones.

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stretchwithme
Yep, its brutal. No matter how hard you try, you can't convince anybody that
95 year olds are just as creative and productive as 25 year olds.

