
Man sues feds after being detained for refusing to unlock his phone at airport - blahedo
https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2018/12/man-sues-feds-after-being-detained-for-refusing-to-unlock-his-phone-at-airport/
======
bruceb
The problem with Customs and Border Protection is the attitude. They do have a
challenging job. 99%+ of travelers are legit and doing nothing nefarious. They
have to pick out the ones who are not legit/up to no good. I have no problem
with them asking questions of myself or other travelers, even a lot of
questions.

The problem is the attitude and abusive nature of their conduct. I have had
this experience a couple times and one time with my mother and I am a citizen.
Plenty of other countries have customs/border agents that quiz you without
attacking or belittling you.

~~~
zachberger
I agree.

I went through the TSA checkpoint at the United Premier Access this last
Tuesday. They have the new automated bin return system. Some of the people who
travel less frequently were leaving the bins behind instead of putting them in
the machine to be returned to the front. The TSA agent shouted at them
repeatedly, "do any of you read English? Can't you read the damn sign?" While
he pointed at the instructions. He did this for the entire time I was near the
checkpoint.

This is belittling. Not everyone flys frequently and knows this process. How
about respecting them and teaching them the new way?

I wanted to say something to one of the other agents, but why risk ending up
on a list especially when it's this hard to get through now.

~~~
philpem
I had this at Gatwick last year...

"Hey idiot, get your goddamn bags off the (expletive) belt! Hurry the hell
up!"

At which point another passenger decided to take advantage of the confusion
and tried to steal my phone...

"God (expletive) damn you! Are you trying to make my (expletive) life hard?!
Just take your bags and go, you're holding up my line!"

Approached the airport, "we do not comment on security matters".

"How can I take this complaint further?"

"You'll need to ask your solicitor to contact our legal department."

And then there was Stockholm Arlanda...

(On the way in) "Good morning Sir. Welcome to Stockholm."

And on the way out...

"Sir, is this your bag? Can you please turn the laptop on for me?"

'Do you need me to log in, it's for work...'

"Oh no, I just need to see it turn on."

~~~
test1235
just to clarify ... a member of gatwick airport security staff said that you?

>"Hey idiot, get your goddamn bags off the (expletive) belt! Hurry the hell
up!"

>"God (expletive) damn you! Are you trying to make my (expletive) life hard?!
Just take your bags and go, you're holding up my line!"

That all sounds so un-british I can't imagine this playing out. Which part of
security were you in?

I've flown through heathrow, gatwick and other uk airports loads of times and
never seen anything approaching that level of rudeness.

~~~
owenversteeg
Really? I've gone through a good number of British airports and I've seen
similar scenes play out (typically not directed at me, though.)

British security/police seem to take their power a bit too far very often, in
my experience. They have absolutely no problem with a little shouting. Of the
first-world immigration officials I've had to interact with I'd rank them
perhaps second worst, for general cluelessness and authoritarian behavior.

The typical British "don't say or do anything, just tut" behavior does apply
often: Public displays of racism? Civil liberties being taken away? A simple
tut will do. But if you're British immigration, then shouting incorrect or
confusing instructions is just part of the job.

The number of times I've seen this is too high, and that's not even including
the number of patronizing and wrong instructions I've gotten, either. For
example, getting shouted at that I should have presented my American passport
when I presented my Dutch passport (...what?)

~~~
PietdeVries
"British security/police seem to take their power a bit too far very often"...

And that is the actual problem here as well. At the airport you end up in a
"your rights end here" zone. According to the original story, the questioned
person had no right to a laywer as he was not arrested. But he was also not
free to go. So there you are: stuck between a rock and a hard place... Sure,
you have every right not to unlock your phone. But you will go nowhere, miss
your flight, your connecting flight, etc. And all the officers just go home
when their shift is over and forget your case ever happened...

------
grecy
The "unlock your phone" part is obviously a problem, and the focus of HN's
attention.

What gets me is an Officer can say to your face "You are not under arrest" but
then handcuff you, take you someplace against your will, and detain you there
without access to a lawyer.

How can that possibly be the conduct of Officers in a free country?

I could even understand if the Officer just plainly said "we can not let you
board this flight, you must leave the airport" or something similar. But
handcuffs and detention even though you are not under arrest is insanity.

~~~
cbm-vic-20
This might be the "internet tough guy" in me, but if I was travelling alone
I'd ask the officer if I was under arrest, and if they answer no, I'd ask if I
would be under arrest if I walked away. If the officer says yes, I'd get up
and walk away (not towards a "secure area"), proceed to get arrested, and
immediately ask for my lawyer, and would say no more.

~~~
dsfyu404ed
This. Once you've already missed your flight they have a lot less leverage to
get your to not stand up for your rights. At that point it's not like you have
plans for the next 24hr (the flight was your plan and that ship sailed) so you
might as well stand up for your rights, get "arrested", contact a lawyer and
have a chance at getting a small "please go away" settlement in a couple
years.

Edit: changed words around to make it more clear.

~~~
flatb
Please don't give tough-guy "smart" advice like this on the internet. You're
going to end up getting someone as naive as you into trouble.

I can _guarantee_ that most any officer will charge you with 'resisting' or
'non-compliance' or some other fuzzy, indefensible legal charge just because
you pissed them off by 'challenging their authority'. And now you missed your
flight and have legal problems for what, to prove a point?

Here's some advice on what pretty much any officer will think in these kinds
of situations: _' Oh, you want to make my life harder? I'll make YOUR life
harder'_. I know, it's bullshit, unprofessional childish behavior, but it's
real. And believe me, he/she _will_ win.

Be practical. Changing this stuff comes from legislation, not some brave
grandstanding power-move that literally not even the rest of your fellow
travelers will give a damn about.

~~~
dsfyu404ed
The legislation already exists. The laws that the government agency is usually
in violation of in these sorts of situations became effective on June 21 1788.

The actual changes come from some judge who's had a bad day telling the
prosecution "no, screw you, the officer's actions were in violation of the
defendant's Nth amendment rights, you have no case when you act like this" and
then that percolating up through the various appellate courts.

------
gabrielmoshe
This is certainly not the first article of its kind, and the legality of such
action seems to be upheld in court (at least the use of search without a
warrant at the border).

So, the selfish question then is: How do I protect myself from such
unwarranted searches? Is there a way I can present my phone such that it drops
into a mode that contains no data? Do I need to back my phone up before
traveling, wipe it for the border crossing, and then restore once I feel safe?

It feels crazy to ask this question, as an American citizen, but HN, what do
you do to protect your data at the American border?

~~~
superkuh
Don't forget that the border zone extends 100 miles in from the actual border
(including the great lakes). Most US people live their entire lives in the
constitution free zone where this kind of violation is allowed.

~~~
hawaiianbrah
“Most people” seems like a bit of a stretch...

~~~
bonestamp2
The "most people" actually comes from the part he left out... it's not just
100 miles from any border, it's 100 miles from any international airport,
which does include most people.

~~~
angry_octet
No, an intl airport is a point of entry, but not a border.

~~~
bonestamp2
True, but it looks like the "100 miles from an airport" part of the law was
not enacted after all. My mistake.

------
raspasov
Those "unlock your phone at the border" stories have become so famous that
anybody who's "up to no good" would be traveling with a decoy phone at this
point.

~~~
Traubenfuchs
Right? This is nothing but harassment.

------
ezoe
I decided a long time ago that I will never travel to the US because I'm not
white and cares about my privacy.

~~~
writepub
That's an absurd decision. The US has tens of millions of annual visitors, and
given that the majority of the Earth isn't white, it's likely that a majority
of the visitors aren't.

While the stories that hit the press are negative (and hence newsworthy),
millions travel in and out without incident.

If you look at this statistically, you have a one in a million chance of
having your phone searched at the border

~~~
ezoe
The fact you have no human rights within the boder and must follow every
orders from police without requiring the court order or face violence,
detention without arrest, declined to contact the lawyer, or simply be shot
are enough to avoid such place.

------
rjzzleep
Here's are the procedings [1] and the complaint [2]

Say what you will about the US and the fact that you can get shot for looking
at the wrong guy at the wrong time, but the mere fact that this happening and
so easy to follow is quite interesting. In Germany you'd be laughed out of the
room and I've had my fair share of racism to deal with from the authorities
despite having grown up here.

[1] [https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/8168712/haisam-
elsharka...](https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/8168712/haisam-elsharkawi-v-
united-states-of-america/)

[2]
[https://www.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.cacd.727665...](https://www.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.cacd.727665/gov.uscourts.cacd.727665.1.0.pdf)

~~~
gammateam
Sorry who would be laughed out of the room and for what? It wasnt clear to me
from what you wrote

Also I found it interesting that Germans perceive the US as overly litigious
but I found an article that said Germany has more lawsuits (per capita? In
absolute totals?), funny how perception takes a long time to catch up to
various forms of reality

~~~
kevin_thibedeau
German law allows predatory lawyers to file lawsuits on behalf of another
party without their involvement. That level of BS thankfully doesn't happen in
the US.

~~~
zaarn
Abmahnung is not a proper lawsuit, it's a mostly legal way to get parties to
agree in case of a legal dispute without having to actually involve a court.
You can ask to be reimbursed for incurred costs for up to 1000€. The current
government is working no reducing the abuse of this legal mechanism.

Sending one of these requires you also to clearly show how the recipient
infringed on your rights or a law that affects you or your business in a
negative way and lay out the costs you want reimbursed for sending the letter
(up to 1000€). If you're wrong about it you'll have to pay all and any
attorney fees of the other party.

If someone refuses to pay or sign the Abmahnung you have to go to court, in
which case you'll need agreement from the party you're representing.

To file an actual lawsuit you still need to be wronged or damaged by the
actions of another party, you can't just sue in the name of someone else
without them agreeing to it. This is also limited to civil law, criminal law
is handled by the state prosecutor via the police, not you yourself.

~~~
gammateam
Very informative, sounds like a litigious society

I’ll take “Semantical distinctions I dont have to care about” for $200, Alex

~~~
marcosdumay
\- If you are found wrong, you have to pay the defending party legal costs;

\- If the defending party ever decides to fight and you don't have the
approval of the wronged party, you can't even defend yourself (read the point
above again);

\- It's only for small values, and there is no upwards negotiation (you must
lay the costs down at the letter).

That's the government not requiring a judicial process for small values, while
keeping all the rights of the defending party (I wish my country had something
like that). You may not care about the difference, but that only speaks about
you, because there's a huge difference there.

------
gammateam
So did anybody call a lawyer like he asked? Reminds me of the movie Trading
Places where Eddie Murphy asked for a lawyer and all of the aristocrats
coughed and turned away

My rehearsed line is “you in the <distinctive clothes> I’ll split the
settlement with you if you record this and call a lawyer!”

Gotta disrupt the bystander syndrome by calling out a particular person

And provide the financial incentive

~~~
jeauxlb
How would this even work? I google for local "immigration lawyers"(??) and
tell the person who answers a man whose name I don't know yelled at me to call
them, and that they get someone down to the airport? I'd like to think if I
saw this happening I'd step in to help, but I don't feel like I would have
enough compelling --- let alone actionable --- information for a lawyer to be
interested enough to intervene.

~~~
anoncoward111
Here's how I would handle it:

In addition to calling several high profile agencies like ACLU and EFF, I
would call one or two local lawyers and say,

"Hi, my name is FirstLast, at 2:05 PM I was at LAX Terminal 2. A man wearing
XYZ was being led away by CBP agents and was pleading for someone to call a
lawyer. Is this something you can handle? I imagine you can get in contact
with LAX authorities if you are interested in taking this case."

I guess it's different at the federal level because they can detain people
longer and with less cause, but eventually I believe they have to be offered
the right to legal representation and being hauled in front of a judge
publically.

Unless of course the US Govt wants to extradite you from LAX to Guantanamo, at
which point a lawyer is the least of your worries.

------
onetimemanytime
"Do as we say or you'll miss your flight" probably get 99.99% compliance. Most
people have plans and "have nothing to hide," or so they think.

Question: Why do they ask all these question about kids, schools, wife etc?
Identity is established, the passport is legit because they can check it, WTH
do they want?

~~~
ubersoldat2k7
It's normal interrogation techniques. They ask normal stuff to see if you lie
or you get nervous. Just watch any of those airport security shows on TV to
see how many people who end up smuggling stuff fail to answer those simple
questions or change their story several times during the interrogation
process.

~~~
onetimemanytime
I understand that...that's why they ask 100 times the same question in
detective interviews. Truth is the same, but if you're lying you might refine
it and eventually forget so you invent a new one.

So it's not to prove that you're John Doe but to see if you have anything
suspicious with you or if you're up to no good.

------
danboarder
Suggestion: for international travel, when possible stow your powered off
phone in checked baggage, and bring a non-important factory-reset phone or
tablet for entertainment or to connect to the cloud if needed for work etc. If
needed keep your work files in a hidden folder on an SD card in your camera...
lots of annoying but increasingly necessary workarounds to deal with the
growth of authoritarian states.

~~~
petre
Just make sure you phone's battery is dead. Then you won't be able to unlock
it anyway.

~~~
Vinnl
Hmm, I'm wondering how they'd respond if you stored your battery in your
checked baggage...

~~~
philpem
"Just wait here sir, we'll get that... Also you're going to be charged with
checking a lithium battery into the hold, you're not allowed to do that."

------
ashelmire
The border doctrine so clearly violates the Constitution, it’s absurd that we
allow it to continue (especially when it’s applied to most of he population of
the US due to the coasts). It has to go.

------
throw2016
The fact that border agents can search your personal effects is totalitarian,
not unlike the stasi and other authoritarian regimes. The fact that this is
'normalized' in a democracy is astonishing.

This case also highlights the massive gap between civilized rule of law and
what actually happens in these interactions, the dehumanization and arbitrary
intimidation is not compatible with a democratic civilized society, and this
culture of enforcement and lack of accountability is akin to a police state.

~~~
maze-le
> accountability is akin to a police state

Not akin, the US is a police state. If you have ever been in a real police-
state (Brazil, Israel, Cuba) you will immediately spot the similarities. And
the US is not alone, just the most advanced state of a former democracy...

------
qwerty456127
Searching through a phone/laptop is like searching through your mind itself,
this should not be legal under any circumstances.

------
torgian
Geez. This is terrible. This just makes me consider using a burner phone and
imaging my own laptop before visiting the States after being in China for four
years.

------
brailsafe
I was searched at the border a few months ago on my way in via car from
Vancouver to Washington. It did unfortunately appear to be the case that they
had selected a significantly larger number of non-caucasion looking people for
searches that followed mine (I'm caucasion), thought I hadn't noticed until my
girlfriend pointed it out to me. However, while I was waiting for them to
finish searching my car, I spoke with a caucasion fellow who happened to be
Canadian with a German passport. Based on what he described, they decided that
he must have been trying to work in the states without the right visa. They
then proceeded to molest him and his personal privacy for 4+ hours. He tossed
me a pamphlet that they gave him indicating that they had the full legal right
to do so and he was more or less screwed. I proceeded to start deleting every
avenue they'd have to view chat messages, emails, photos, anything, but there
really was only so much I could do. Fortunately, it seems like they just
wanted to try and intimidate me. The search seemed to be a formality. From
what I hear, similar things happen on the way into Canadians to Canadians.
It's a strange world we live in, and I wish all the good fortune in the world
to those who try and fight it.

------
8bitsrule
Don't take your devices with you.

------
eganist
Was this incident recorded by any passers-by?

It may sound as if I'm asking out of doubt, but rather, I'm asking to see if
my hunch that CBP is equally as reckless and uncaring in front of a camera as
e.g. other law enforcement agencies.

~~~
Pawka
It is not allowed to use phone/camera at the Customs area.

~~~
dylan604
To the point they don't even like you texting your travel companions inquiring
about the delay. Because of these horror stories, I use my phone's ability to
disable the TouchID reader forcing the 18 character pass code to be used when
returning to the US. On entry of a foreign country, I shut it down completely.

------
ordinaryperson
To me this kind of story should be on the front page of the NYT, not the fact
that Netflix found out what my Candy Crush score was via my FB messages.

Being physically detained by law enforcement and having your Constitutional
rights denied seems way worse than FB data leaks, at least to me.

And maybe I'm wrong but I can't help but wonder if race is a factor, that this
and other stories like it would be bigger news if white U.S. citizens were the
ones being subjected to this treatment.

------
dmux
What's the protocol if the phone (or other electronic device) was provided to
you by your employer? Wouldn't unlocking and handing over a "protected" device
be against most company handbooks?

------
wpdev_63
Just a reminder: anyone that is on the TLA's shitlist will have their phones
combed through as soon as it hits american networks(possibly others).

This is more or less a form of intimidation at the border.

------
jwmoz
I would hate to go to a place where they tried to force me to unlock my phone
and surrender my privacy.

