
VW emissions scandal hits 11m vehicles - jsnathan
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-34325005
======
jacquesm
One more reason for publishing the source code to drive-line software in cars.
And don't give me nonsense about 'millions of lines of code' (I've heard that
before in another context too), an ECU is not 'millions of lines of code'.

And as far as VW is concerned this is only the beginning: how many customers
are going to sue VW for a sudden decrease in market value / resale value of
their vehicle?

The damage to the VW brand is enormous, if not fatal. But the damage to 'Made
in Germany' and the rest of the German brands is collosal as well. This will
surely be reflected in the GDP of Germany for many years to come.

~~~
tetrep
> One more reason for publishing the source code to drive-line software in
> cars.

How does this prevent VW from publishing inaccurate source code?

Let's say we manage to force them to not only disclose full source code but
also how to make binary reproducible builds and we also (somehow) can verify
the integrity of every single microcontroller in the car, how do we prevent
underhanded programming tactics?

We're always going to need to trust auto makers so why put massive burdens on
them that don't remove our need to trust them?

~~~
yrro
They should be required to come up with a build system that produces
reproducible output, then people can dump the code in their car and compare it
to what was published.

~~~
Retra
If you can dump the code in your car, then you can boost your own car's
performance by circumventing the laws yourself. That's one of the reasons this
software is locked up, (as I understand it, anyway)

~~~
jacquesm
You can swap out your tires for known good ones just before the MOT too and
swap them back afterwards. Laws can always be circumvented, but that does not
make such circumvention any less illegal and when caught the penalties tend to
be quite serious.

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ZeroGravitas
Given that they did this, then denied it for a year when challenged, surely
the big question is: what else are they lying about?

Normally you'd assume that basic self-interest would stop a large company from
lying too much, but that theory has gone right out the window after these
revelations.

~~~
steve19
What else and who else

------
kodis
There are a couple of questions that I haven't seen addressed on this issue:
why, if this is a feature of the software, is this expected to cost so much
for VW to fix?; and how do they expect to get people to bring their cars in
for the fix when the fix can be expected to make their cars get worse fuel
economy and a decrease in power?

~~~
amatix
As a consumer, surely you have a fairly legitimate comeback with "the fuel
economy & power is now rubbish, I'd have never bought the car in the first
place if it was like that"? Pretty hard for VW to prove otherwise, and I don't
know whether the outcome would look like a refund, replacement, or something
else... (the first two would cost billions)

~~~
CWuestefeld
Several years back, Hyundai got in trouble for having worse fuel efficiency
than their EPA numbers claimed. They had to pay off all owners of that car (I
don't recall whether that was due to class action lawsuit, or an agreement
with the gov't).

So it seems to me that if VW has to detune their engine performance, they'll
similarly have to compensate owners of the affected cars.

~~~
QuotedForTruth
That was easy to do since you could determine the difference in gas cost
between advertised and actual performance. How do you value power though?

~~~
alkonaut
Exactly. I just ordered a Passat Wagon 2Liter diesel 191hp (Last week, what
are the odds?) because among the options under the pretty strict CO2 emission
restrictions I needed to follow (120g/km) it seemed like the best choice.

If the CO2 emissions had happened to be ever so slightly higher than 120g/km
then I couldn't have bought it, and would have picked the V70 D4 instead.

Obviously, if VW had been fair, maybe they couldn't have squeezed 191hp and
5L/100km consumption out of it. Suppose it would have been 170hp and 5L/100km
instead to reach the required emissions targets. Now instead of better
perforomance than the competition (such as the Volvo) it would have be worse!
It's entirely possible I wouldn't have picked it.

So as a customer I'm not really suffering from VW's wrongdoing here. At least
not yet (until I get a message saying my not-yet-received car will be delayed
2 months and is already less powerful than when I ordered it). Volvo on the
other hand may well have already lost a sale of a new car. Makes you wonder
how many sales they lost, and makes you realize how important accurate tests
are.

~~~
jacquesm
A couple more 'anecdotes' like that and I see an entirely different angle of
fall-out from all this, lost income from missed sales by _other_ brands.

------
nulldereference
I apologize in advance, but this feels rather un-German... What was the
motivating factor in this? This blowout is going to affect so many of VW's
lines, and their reputation.

~~~
acomjean
I think money oddly. I had a 98 Jetta TDI (Diesel). The trade off for 45 mpg
was pokey performance, even with the turbo.

The new ones really drive with pep, like normal cars, so I think they thought
they'd sell more with better performance. There is a not insignificant price
premium for diesel vehicles.

Diesel owners are really really passionate about their cars (no time to
redesign their web forums) and "Diesel Gate" is going to hit that loyalty
hard.

Summary page with graphs:

[http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=448336](http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=448336)

------
mschuster91
Trickery like this has been long used in the automobile industry. VW is just
the first to exaggerate it and getting caught.

Not a big deal, imho. There are far bigger threats to the environment than all
cars combined - just look at all those freight ships burning bunker fuel, coal
power plants emitting more radioactivity than a decades old nuclear plant...

~~~
nsnick
Freight ships are actually very green when compared to airplanes, cars and
trains. You have to look at emissions per kg per mile.

~~~
jfoutz
The engines are _really_ efficient. Unfortunately, the cheapest fuel has a lot
of sulphur in it, so there's a lot of sulphur dioxide that comes out of the
engine. Low sulphur fuel is 4x the cost.

So, yeah. I don't think the cargo ships are villains or anything, but one of
them is worth 50 million cars, for that specific type of emission. (cars would
be higher, but they're regulated.). Generally it's turning around, different
countries are requiring low sulphur fuel, in spite of the cost. The us was
January, i think.

~~~
LeChuck
>Low sulphur fuel is 4x the cost.

It's more like double the cost. Your point stands, though.

[http://www.bunkerworld.com/prices/port/nl/rtm/](http://www.bunkerworld.com/prices/port/nl/rtm/)

------
kw71
Rigging cars to pass emissions tests has been a game for a long time. For a
long time all you had to do was pass a tailpipe sniff test on a dyno and the
car would be held at two slow speeds for the duration of the test, so you'd
get results for those kinds of cruising situations but not for acceleration or
highway operation. So, cars were adapted to pass these tests. Later when fuel
economy rules came about, the same thing happened: the test cycles for fuel
economy were examined and cars were changed to achieve better results just for
these tests.

~~~
qbrass
[http://www.hotrod.com/how-
to/engine/pon-0509-1973-emissions-...](http://www.hotrod.com/how-
to/engine/pon-0509-1973-emissions-control-systems/)

Here's an example from the 70's

------
DinkyG
I'm curious what the reasoning was behind approving a measure which had such a
high risk of backfiring very badly for vw. Is it something which was approved
higher up or something an engineering team quietly hacked into place to meet
an emissions target.

~~~
jacquesm
All it takes is for a team and their direct managers to collude if oversight
and review are lacking. As little as 5 people could have known about this, or
possibly it went all the way to the top but given the risks I very much doubt
that. It's one thing to have errors or bugs, quite another to deliberately
mislead the authorities on a major benchmark for vehicle approval. That's way
beyond the gray zone.

~~~
marbu
Given the sheer scale of this, I doubt it is the case.

~~~
jacquesm
It's just one engine type as far as I can see.

~~~
marbu
I see the initial code of this hack as just a begining. Then someone needs to
test it with actual cars, maybe tweak it a bit and then make sure it gets
deployed on the selected car models while assuring it works without breaking
anything else. Moreover this hack was in place for few years ... On the other
hand I'm not from the industry, so maybe it would be actually much easier.

------
JustSomeNobody
Are we going to see any prison time for the executives in charge?

The DOJ said they'd start seeking it. (Yes, I know it's a German company...)

------
trhway
like always - it wasn't one person doing it, it was large number of people
involved ... Reminds me like at some previous employer some years ago a
critical security bug was explicitly and openly waived by the product team
under leadership of the same PM who had just been foaming that "security is
our top priority".

------
dcgoss
Can someone track down the devs that wrote the code to dupe the system and do
a documentary? I think it would be fascinating, given the ethical decisions
that had to be made. Also, what the reaction was inside the company?

------
dopamean
I wonder if Audi is affected by any of this.

~~~
mynameisvlad
Yes: [http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-
canada-34298259](http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-34298259)

"It affects 2009-14 Jettas, Beetles, _Audi A3s_ and Golfs and 2014-15
Passats."

Audi and VW share "platforms" which comprise of the core parts. Current-gen
Passat, Golf, and A3, among a few others, all use the MQB platform.

------
bane
On the flip side, the new line of Honda Accord Hybrids are amazing.
Fantastically simple drivetrain, it's basically an electric car where the
"batteries" consist of a Li-On buffer bank and a gas-to-electricity 4-cylinder
generator that's recruited via a clutch for high-torque/high-horsepower assist
to the electric motor. Being driven by an electric motor, torque is instant
and constant, there's no transmission to speak of. I've driven one, it's
pretty peppy, 0-30 in 2.9 and 0-60 in ~7 seconds (it's a family sedan so I
know it's not blowing the doors off of a Tesla, but it's about a full second
faster than a Passat TDI)

Uses cheap low-octane gasoline and can get 45-50 mpg (like a Prius), and 700
miles on a tank of gas. Emissions are 188 grams/mile (vs. VW's 298 for a
Passat TDI). Trickled down Acura active suspension, _wider_ tires than a stock
Accord.

Priced about the same as a Passat TDI, but with _almost_ Tesla level engine
tech and probably more reliable than either on average.

[http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2014/02/review-2014-honda-a...](http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2014/02/review-2014-honda-
accord-hybrid-with-video/)

------
nsnick
I don't think VW has hurt their customers in any way. They gave their
customers fuel economy and power that was not possible under EPA regulations.
I think if anything the current VW Diesels will be more valuable in future as
subsequent model years will be crippled by default to satisfy the EPA, and the
government has no way to determine if a vehicle has firmware that lies to
their equipment without drastically altering their testing procedures.

~~~
gwenboog
Sure VW has hurt their customers. They sold them illegal cars. Those cars can
only have the performance they promised if they pollute the environment and
break environmental laws.

All VW customers should demand full refunds. They were defrauded.

~~~
nsnick
Did you ask how much NOx your last vehicle emitted when you bought it? Did you
see any advertising about NOx emissions? Do you know if/why NOx is considered
a pollutant? Did you know that NOx is a substantial constituent of whipped
cream? Did you know the other name for NOx is laughing gas?

Saying that someone broke the law doesn't mean they did anything ethically
wrong. I think it would be an uphill battle to demonstrate if/how VW harmed
their customers.

~~~
JustSomeNobody
>Saying that someone broke the law doesn't mean they did anything ethically
wrong.

It doesn't?

~~~
Pinatubo
Is it ethically wrong for a woman to drive in Saudi Arabia?

~~~
JustSomeNobody
Again, the c.o.n.t.e.x.t is emissions.

