
Ask HN: Best robust laptop for everyday software development - eddd2ad
Hi HN, I&#x27;ve been a long term user of both Thinkpads and Macbooks. Back in the old days I loved to work on Thinkpads and loved their robustness. I&#x27;m owning a X1 Carbon and have to say that the quality is rather disappointing to me, display broke already presumably from lots of traveling. Macbook is okay, but for running and developing on Linux not very optimal. The keyboard on a Thinkpad is also nicer to use (imho). I moan that we don&#x27;t have the old days where Thinkpads used to be what they stand for, that is, being robust laptops for everyday development. Any experience &#x2F; recommendation with rugged laptops (e.g. the rugged Latitude)? If you were to buy a new (<i>robust</i>) laptop to work with and travel often, what would it be?
======
PascLeRasc
It'd have to be a 2015 Retina Macbook Pro for me. Magsafe charging is as
robust as it gets. Not too heavy but still can be configured with plenty of
CPU/RAM/SSD. I've dropped my 2014 plenty of times and it's just got a few
scratches around the aluminium but there's no hinge or port damage.

~~~
sgt
Personally, I feel nothing beats a Mac for overall software development,
especially if you are a full stack developer and you like to be able to use
all kinds of tools if need be.

I see a lot of people like the ThinkPads and I'm sure they are great, but the
secret sauce is not just the machine, but the OS, and macOS is still glorious
(it's a UNIX desktop OS!)

I'm not going to tell anyone they _must_ use a Mac, but generally if I see a
room full of developers, 90% of them will have Macs. Surely that says
something.

Same thing with students. Maybe it's different in other countries, but I think
this is the norm in both the US and Europe at the very least.

~~~
croo
"I'm not going to tell anyone they must use a Mac, but generally if I see a
room full of developers, 90% of them will have Macs. Surely that says
something"

I did not use Mac yet and would like to try it someday. But I know a quite
profane proverb for this thinking: "eat shit, ten million fly cannot be wrong"

I have never seen a developer with Mac in my life - only managers. Developers
use highest grade of ThinkPads Dells and HP so consider this to be more of a
cultural thing around your country/part of world.

~~~
sgt
That's interesting. Where are you located?

------
zcid
I always recommend a ThinkPad. I've been using my T420 for years and it's
still holding up great. From what I've seen, the newer laptops are just as
durable.

I have run OpenBSD, Windows, and various Linux distributions on it without a
hitch. Full driver support is the norm since they use very standard parts.

I fit three drives in mine and the keyboard is excellent for a laptop.

~~~
ryandvm
T450s on Ubuntu. It's been a super-reliable machine. Good battery life and
great to type on. Only complaint is that the trackpad sucks. Maybe that's on
my and I need to spend more time tweaking libinput; but for Frith's sake, why
is Apple the only company in the world that can make a decent fucking
trackpad?

------
rotskoff
I only used Apple products for about a decade, but last year I bought a Dell
XPS which I run Ubuntu on. If you're looking to run linux, the XPS is a great
choice. The hardware quality is extremely high---long battery life, ridiculous
screen resolution (and it's a touchscreen), fast processor, and plenty of
storage.

My only complaints stem from the fact that, when using linux, there are
inevitably things that don't work as smoothly as they do on OSX, e.g., syncing
with google drive.

~~~
abalos
I had so many problems with my XPS that I switched to a Macbook for the first
time ever after 1.5 years of using it. My development process went something
like this:

\- Start to code. \- Find weird quirk (laptop keeps typing multiple letters,
screen resolution doesn't match up, random lag). \- Research weird quirk to
see if I can fix it. \- Forget why I was even on my computer.

------
drawnwren
The X220/30 is still a very viable Dev machine if you don't mind the screen.

As a word of caution, I went down the MBP route myself and was recently caught
with the dust under the keyboard membrane problem. You probably aren't
accurately evaluating how annoying it is to randomly lose your laptop for a
few weeks while they repair the keyboard. I certainly was not.

~~~
ummonk
Compressed air duster didn't fix it?

~~~
ReC757
I have a 2016 Macbook Pro 15" that had the keyboard issue. When it occurred,
the problem was not as well known about.

It did not feel like a problem caused by dust. Perhaps it was due to the small
tolerances in the keyboard mechanism.

The B key would only work with a very firm press.

Because the laptop was fairly new, I assumed the problem was caused by a
manufacturing defect with the frame. The problem was typically worse when the
laptop was cold vs. hot.

If the problem is caused by dust (which I find hard to believe due to my issue
after only 4 months of ownership) the problem must only need a small
obstruction in the right place to cause a key to fail.

When the key failure happens, duster does not seem to help at all.

After the replacement, I have had no other failures. It's sad that a wonderful
machine can be brought down with this terrible issue.

On a side note, I am very happy with the computer overall. The four
thunderbolt 3 ports allow me to run my entire setup over one connection. I run
an external RX 580 in an Akitio Node Pro to 2 4k monitors. MacOS UI design in
my opinion feels clean compared to Windows currently and application support
is fantastic compared to ten years ago!

Just thought I would offer my insight :)

------
mpg515
I don't buy new computers anymore. I only buy computers that are a few years
old. The last one I purchased was a Thinkpad T420s with the wide screen, maxed
out the RAM, popped in an SSD, and for under $500. Works like a charm. Linux
gives me no major problems.

If I was going to buy another Mac, it would probably be a 2015ish 13" MBP. I
currently have an 11" 2012 Air that is perfectly fine for the type of
development I do and shows only minor signs of impending failure. I would def
get another one of these as well.

------
geff82
The perfect thing you are looking for is a Thinkpad of the T4XX series (even
if it seems you want to get away from Lenovo). Why? Not because nothing ever
breaks - but because they can always be repaired and every part is available
for replacement at multiple outlets (eg Amazon). All parts are mounted on a
big magnesium Chassis - and you will find out why this is a good thing if you
ever work on it. I personally own a X240 and hope I can use it for many years.
Had to replace the keyboard (Beer...), but it was doable. Repairing the
Samsung I had before could become a bigger issue because of the low material
quality.

------
vikingcaffiene
A 2013-2015 Mac Book Pro 15" with the old style keys if you can find one. I
know a lot of orgs and devs are snatching them up these days. Mines been going
strong for years. My wife bought the current gen MBP and its been in for
repairs __twice __already over that damn keyboard.

I also have a T410 Thinkpad running linux and while the screen sucks, its a
tank and still runs great. Super repairable too.

Gonna sound like an old guy here but they truly don't make em like they used
to. If you are looking for true durability, might be that getting something a
few years old is just the ticket.

------
nickbauman
As much as I like to bang on Apple for various and sundry reasons I go back to
Apple every time because I can walk into any apple store in the world and I
can get the thing serviced on the spot, often for free, but as a dev, time is
money and I need something sorted right away.

This is what you're paying extra for when you buy a mac. Make no mistake.

~~~
dragosmocrii
The way I look at it, is maybe you shouldn't have to service your Mac so often
(often is a keyword in your coment)? Given the premium you pay for a
"reliable" product

~~~
epicide
I think the "often" is more that they often will waive repair fees for people,
not that they've personally needed a single device repaired often.

Not that Apple doesn't have issues, but they do tend to be on the low side.
When they do have them, they are usually good about fixing it, as well.

The keyboard thing is disappointing but it sounds like they flew too close to
the sun and are working on it.

The other big one in recent memory are the iPhone 6's bending. The real issue
was that they didn't have a good company-wide policy for stores to follow, so
it was often down to how nice the manager of the store felt that day.

------
msadowski
I bought a ThinkPad T480 at the beginning of this year and I really like the
quality. The only comparison I have is my old Toshiba Satellite, compared to
which the ThinkPad is miles ahead when it comes to build quality. It has two
batteries and on a single charge it can work for 8-10 hours.

One thing I dislike about it is when I carry it in my backpack the keyboard
keys seem to press on the screen, which would cause it to wear. To protect
against it I'm keeping a microfibre cloth sandwiched in there when I carry it
around.

------
ranedk
I used my T61 for 6 years and had to give it up because the graphic chip
busted. Since then I have used multiple laptops Dell to Apple. I even
installed Ubuntu on my Apple mac Pro, but it would not suspend and heat up
inside my laptop bag.. finally shit blew up. I have been using Xiaomi notebook
pro for the last 8 months. Even with a hefty customs, it was cheaper by 80%
for any laptop of the same configuration. The build quality feels like Macbook
Pro. Ubuntu works out of box.. It suspends and everything works except the
fingerprint reader. The xiaomi notebook pro is as heavy as high end macbook
Pro and the build quality is brilliant! The config is crazy and haven't faced
a problem yet. I check the quality of a good laptop by the how much the lid
oscillates if you chuck it a little. Macbook Pro and xiaomi don't oscillate at
all.. Dell, compaq, Asus oscillate a good 10-20 degrees.

------
Daave87
Dell XPS has been great for me.

~~~
j88439h84
Best laptop I've ever had. Comes with ubuntu.

------
k-ian
If you want something dirt-cheap and easy to repair, go with one of the
earlier thinkpad x-series, x200, x201, x220, x230...

They're underpowered, but if you're just SSHing into a remote box it's a good
choice.

~~~
Cau5tik
> They're underpowered, but if you're just SSHing into a remote box it's a
> good choice.

I feel like this concept doesn't get enough attention. You'll never get a
laptop (that you actually want to carry) that has as much power as a server in
a rack somewhere. Thinking of the laptop as an ephemeral mobile thin client
rather than an entire workstation lets you focus on finding a laptop that's
comfortable to type on and not a pain to carry. Trying to combine all of those
requirements with a lot of computing power is much more difficult and
expensive.

I second the earlier thinkpad X series suggestion. My x201 was less than $200,
has fantastic driver support, and you can beat the snot out of them.
[https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=thinkpad+x201+c...](https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=thinkpad+x201+crash+test)

~~~
wink
Wouldn't say the i7 x230 is really "underpowered" but of course it shows its
age a little

comparison to my T470p (which sadly is not an i7):
[http://cpu.userbenchmark.com/Compare/Intel-
Core-i7-3520M-vs-...](http://cpu.userbenchmark.com/Compare/Intel-
Core-i7-3520M-vs-Intel-Core-i5-7300HQ/m50vsm223877)

------
drfritznunkie
> I'm owning a X1 Carbon

Just curious, what generation X1? Gen3s through gen5s in our fleet have been
quite robust, but Gen6 have been problematic from the linux support side. We
have a couple of problematic individual X1 laptops in the fleet that have been
in for service multiple times, but knowing the owners of the laptops in
question, it is not surprising.

We've got between 40-60 X1s (gens 3-5) and I'd say their issue rate is at or
below that of our fleet of 200+ 13" MBPs. In that time, we've had one X1 with
a broken hinge, one with a dead fan, and one with chronic user issues :)

The new 13" MBPs have been particularly bad with chronic keyboard, battery and
screen issues. So much so that people with the old MBPs are holding off to the
very last minute to update. Which sucks because in most cases, their problems
with them would be fixed by new batteries and an OS reinstall, but since
they're not serviceable, we just bin them for a 3rd party service provider to
deal with later.

Also, the fact that Apple refuses to provide any type of pickup or onsite
service contract is absolutely ridiculous. The damn things fail so frequently,
it's cheaper for us to overstock Mac laptops just because it can take weeks to
get a laptop fixed even through our 3rd party service provider. Our service
provider often cannot get parts or has to wait for Apple to approve the
release of a part to them even though they're an Apple certified shop.

Even going to the Apple Store is a complete and utter yardsale in our
experience. Most of the time, it'll take them a week or more to fix anything,
usually they say, because of parts availability (we're talking 13" MBP and 13"
MBA mostly).

------
umanwizard
If you like the MBP but want to use GNU/Linux, you don’t need to install it on
the MBP’s bare metal. You can use it in a virtual machine. I use my home
desktop as a gaming machine (running Windows) and as a coding machine running
FreeBSD in a VM and it works great.

You probably don’t even need to set up X-Windows on the GNU/Linux guest. You
can just run it headless and ssh in from a terminal on the macOS host.

~~~
searchhay
This is what I do as well. I'm usually working on remote linux servers, but if
I need to do something locally I ssh to a VM.

------
frnkshin
T480s is great. (I think I got my config for around $1600 with deals -- i5
8250U, WQHD, 16GB RAM, 512GB SSD)

You could opt to get the IPS 1440P panel instead of the stock 1080P TN Panel
(I'm not 100% positive if it's TN or IPS). I think 8th gen i5 is sufficient
for daily dev work. The laptop keyboard is pretty decent compared to other
brands (Dell XPS, HP Spectre, MAC, etc).

It does come with some flaws due to Lenovo's _very bad_ quality control.

When I ordered my T480s, I had to exchange it due to very bad backlight
bleeding that was worse than the normal circustances.

In terms of weight, it's pretty light, and is pretty good for travelling.

One of the other drawbacks of the T480s is that there is no official hard-
shell casing. Honestly, I have no idea why some Thinkpad users have ideas
against having a case on their Thinkpads, but I think it is totally viable to
get one, as it would prolong the lifetime of the laptop unless you destroy it
pretty hard.

I would opt to get the non-backlit keyboard, as I have 0 use cases when it
comes to backlit keyboards. I think it gives a more sticky key feel to it as
well.

Overall, I think T480s is a great choice.

------
Shelnutt2
I recently purchased a HP Envy x360 15z [1] and it might not be the most
rugged I feel it is a solid laptop with good build quality. I also like that
its one of the few on the market today with a AMD Ryzen APU (I got it with the
2700U). This gives the advantage of great linux support with the AMDGPU
drivers and a nice compromise between Intel integrated graphics and some of
the dual gpu offerings. The only issue in linux is the touchscreen is
currently not functional out of the box. There is a bugzilla entry and patches
but they have not been upstreamed yet [2].

[1] [https://store.hp.com/us/en/pdp/hp-envy-x360-15z-touch-
laptop...](https://store.hp.com/us/en/pdp/hp-envy-x360-15z-touch-
laptop-3ec81av-1)

[2]
[https://bugzilla.kernel.org/show_bug.cgi?id=198715](https://bugzilla.kernel.org/show_bug.cgi?id=198715)

------
fapjacks
I have owned Thinkpads since IBM days, testing the waters occasionally outside
of the brand. My proposition is also a bit easier since I will only ever use
Linux or FreeBSD (and never Windows or Mac). I stand by the W530, the P50, and
most recently, the P52. I felt so strongly about my initial impression of the
P52 that I bought one for myself to use for all of my personal work. Perhaps
it's just a thing with the X1 Carbon?

That being said, my personally-owned P52 is the first Thinkpad I've ever had
that required me to re-paste the chips. For the benefit of readers, Thinkpads
have a not insignificant chance (~5-10%?) you'll need to re-paste the thermal
paste on the CPU and/or GPU, and this is the first one I've ever had that
_needed_ the re-paste. I have always re-pasted the chips perhaps the last ten
years or so -- doing this while changing out the components (usually RAM and
disk) with top-of-the-line components I buy separately because they're
oftentimes hundreds of dollars cheaper if you install them yourself -- but
didn't _need_ to re-paste until this one, which would immediately throttle out
under any kind of load.

One more complaint: I wanted a P52 with a 4K display, but Lenovo refuses to
sell a configuration with a 4K display that does _not_ have that awful,
terrible, shitty fingerprint-magnet glossy TOUCH screen. There is no way in
hell I would use that glossy screen or a touch screen of any kind on my daily
driver, so I was forced to stick with a "regular" HD display. In hindsight,
I'm actually happier not having spent the money on something that I don't
typically use (as I am far more likely to use workspace-switching hotkeys than
try to make my use of screen real estate more efficient). Anyway, I agree that
Lenovo is starting to cut corners, and it seems that eventually (perhaps soon)
Thinkpads will no longer be suitable in this role. But today, with my recent
history with the W530, P50, and P52, I still stand by Thinkpad as my rugged
daily driver and constant life companion.

------
epicide
Depending on exactly what you need to do, don't discount being able to run
Linux boxes on a VPS for very cheap.

For example, I have a small dev/bastion box that I just use Mosh to SSH into.
If you're comfortable on the command line, this has a huge number of benefits.
E.g. doesn't have to sleep, huge network pipe (especially to your other
boxes), using tmux to re-attach to long-running processes, use a tablet or
even a phone to do some things, etc.

If I need something that requires a ton of resources, I can spin up a really
big machine, do what I need, and only pay for the hours I used it.

This allows me to have a really tiny if slightly underpowered laptop. Even if
you don't have your "dev" box on a VPS, offloading your bigger tasks to them
can allow you to still get a smaller laptop.

------
amelius
From an ergonomic viewpoint, the best laptop is no laptop at all, but instead
use a desktop computer.

~~~
tcoff91
I agree and never do serious work on a laptop, but some require mobility. I
simply dock my laptop and use it as my desktop because occasionally I need
mobility.

------
hiram112
Dell Precisions have always been pretty durable. The newer ones have gotten
much thinner and lighter, and I've not used them, but you can often find
refurbished sub $500 m4800s that can still support 32GB of ram, multiple sata
drives, discrete graphics, etc.

~~~
Marc_Bryan
Can't stand the weight of it. It is not a portable system. Though very
powerful, you need to be muscular to lug it on long walks across business
districts! I prefer X1 Carbon or T480s!

Somehow hate Macs!

------
madenine
I travel a lot for work with my X1 Carbon (7th gen i7), and have had no
issues.

I also have a t460s (current version is the t480s) which is also pretty decent
and went through a ton of travel with no issues.

------
wwkeyboard
If travel is your worry a more protective backpack or hard shell case might
serve you well. Every "rugged" laptop I've seen is under-specd and over
priced.

------
Sir_Cmpwn
ThinkPad X200. Cheap, reliable, durable, and with perfect Linux support. It's
over 10 years old and still a fantastic laptop.

------
avgDev
I use an XPS 9560 for personal projects/personal use but keyboard is so so on
it and lenovo keyboard is so much better.

At work I use HP 15u g3, which is also mediocre imo.

To be honest I just prefer desktop with a mechanical keyboard. Having 5Ghz CPU
really helps.

I have not use latitude in a while, but dealing with dell is usually terrible.
However, the on-site service is good.

------
koehr
I currently have three battle tested favorites: The Dell XPS 15, the System76
Galago Pro and the ThinkPad T470s. They are all robust, have great hardware,
good keyboards (ThinkPad's still my favorite though) and excellent Linux
support.

------
monksy
I'm a huge fan of the Asus Zenbooks for taking it with me. Also, the Sagers
for powerful computing. (But it's not as portable). Sagers are gaming laptops.

All of the machines have Linux. The HP Workbooks/zbooks have been decent for
work.

~~~
mixedbit
I own Asus Zenbook for about 6 months and I'm disappointed with the problems
it has on Linux. At least with Ubuntu 16 here are things that don't work out
of a box (I didn't try Ubuntu 17 or 18, but based on my readings 17 has
similar problems):

* Dual GPU support, several configurations that I've tried cause the system to hang. For now I'm using nvidia all the time, which drains the battery.

* Special keys for things like brightness and sound level do not work.

* Every couple of restarts the sound is broken (unbearable noise while playing).

I'm sure all this issues are fixable with enough time, which unfortunately I
don't have (this is not my main development machine, I still use desktop for
most of the work). I was just surprised that in 2018 a shinny laptop can work
so poorly with Linux.

~~~
monksy
The only issue that I'm getting right now is something to do with the Intel
driver freezing after sleep. (Just haven't had time to troubleshoot lately)

Brightness works for me. Dual GPU: I only have the intel graphics. Usually
Dual GPU requires optimus.

------
m3mpp
Thinkpad E560 owner here, bought it a couple of years ago for less than $500
on newegg, installed ubuntu on it and that's it. Dropped it a few times, and
work like 8-10 hours a day on it, never had any issue. Solid.

------
jhare
Thinkpad Carbon X1 6th gen w/ Ubuntu. IR camera is useless but whatever

~~~
toolslive
So is the finger print reader. The IR works nicely in dim lit rooms

------
sz4kerto
Thinkpad, Latitude or ZBook. All of them are approximately on the same level
when it comes to ruggedness -- maybe HP has slightly worse QA but that's only
my anecdotal experience.

------
tunnuz
I have just bought a ThinkPad T480 (the latest upgrade of the T4XX series) and
I absolutely love it. Great finish, great performance, great battery life.

~~~
zython
How many hours of real world use do you get? I've been meaning to upgrade from
a 440s and want to know how the battery performs on the newer models.

------
0b01
Surprised nobody mentioned Lenovo yoga 910 yet. I got it last year, run Ubuntu
with i3 on it, haven't charged in 2 days with on and off usage.

------
busterarm
ThinkPad T or X series, hand's down.

------
eplanit
Stick with Lenovo (assuming you want to run linux on it). P70 is a good one.

------
outside1234
MacBook Pro 2018 with an external keyboard and mouse

------
oldsklgdfth
Punch cards and a box to keep them organized

------
tbrock
Thinkpad T series. Buy it for life.

------
leowoo91
Unfortunately that is a monopoly (dont want to promote the brand) but hopefuly
competition will rebound with tablets.

------
PunchTornado
not going back since started using macbooks. sure, I cried when I paid 2400£
for it.

------
shion
In the future, you will go out with your keyboard instead of a laptop.

~~~
wintorez
In the future, you will go out with a headset and a pair of gloves instead of
your keyboard.

~~~
Piskvorrr
The future, as seen from early 1990s; banging your fingers into the table is
somewhat underwhelming compared to the response of a keyboard. If the gloves
could fix that with tactile feedback...

~~~
epicide
I'd hate to be an early adopter for gloves that presumably stimulate nerves in
your fingers with electricity or something.

------
ensiferum
ThinkPads have indeed declined in quality. Especially the keyboards have
become very fragile and break under normal wear in a few years if not less.
Replacing them at that point is normally impossible since that spare part is
no longer in stock. Sad :(

~~~
timbit42
Not on the good models such as T and X series.

