
Microsoft engineer complains that company is biased - MagicPropmaker
https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2019/04/now-its-microsofts-turn-for-an-anti-diversity-internal-revolt/
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Johnny555
_She follows up that it is "established fact" that the "specific types of
thought process and problem solving required for engineering of all kinds
(software or otherwise) are simply less prevalent among women"_

I'd like to see where she got this "established fact". Many of the early
computer pioneers were women, and many of the early human "computers" were
also women.

I've known some extremely talented female software engineers (and some
mediocre ones), and well as some extremely talented male software engineers
(and some mediocre ones). But, I've met many many more male engineers than
female which I _believe_ is because more females are discouraged from entering
the field by society.

Since this trend seems to be changing, it will be interesting to see in a
decade or two if the field becomes more balanced.

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danans
The female software engineers I've worked with have nearly all been super
talented, and incredible at their jobs. Several have been extremely gifted at
quantitative reasoning and machine learning applied to geo/spatial problems.

I suspect they've had to be, given how unwelcoming the field has been to them.

Sure, my sample size is like 10, but enough to make me laugh at statements
about womens' lacking in technical abilities.

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KirinDave
Ars did a good job of writing this article to express the opinions of the
subjects of the case but still take an opportunity to state the facts: that
there is basically no evidence women are naturally unsuited to programming and
that in other places in the world it doesn't always hold.

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fefe23
I don't think that was the claim of the original engineer though.

More that women like other things more?

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naikrovek
In a world without external gender bias, neither males nor females would
_ever_ be told, implicitly or explicitly, that any job is unsuitable for them.

"Women like other things more" because fewer men are in those fields to tell
them "this is a job for men." There is no overall gender-based bias towards or
away from any intellectual interests.

If a field is full of asshole men, it is not indicative of a lack of interest
in that field from women. It is a lack of interest in putting up with those
asshole men that will keep most women away.

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NotAnEconomist
> "Women like other things more" because fewer men are in those fields to tell
> them "this is a job for men." There is no overall gender-based bias towards
> or away from any intellectual interests.

Do you have evidence for this?

The evidence I've seen, say, comparing Scandinavian women to Eastern European
women, indicates that there are sex-correlated trends in life choices, eg
about career.

[https://www.jordanbpeterson.com/political-correctness/the-
ge...](https://www.jordanbpeterson.com/political-correctness/the-gender-
scandal-part-one-scandinavia-and-part-two-canada/)

~~~
KirinDave
The article itself debunks these claims with both historical and contemporary
evidence, but let's step back for a moment here.

Just note for a moment that Peterson's argument seems to hinge on proving
there are sex-differences. I'm not sure how much I believe him (he's not very
trustworthy and he mis-cites things a lot in my experience), but let's proceed
as if I do not dispute this point. Fine: "There are sex differences on a
variety of scales."

This concession is easy, because no one really disputes this![0] What's
disputed is what the impact and interpretation of these should be. If a
dislike of computer programming is universal under this hypothesis, then we
should not find such trivial counter-examples as the article has. Software can
be about people. Design can be about things. _The outrageous claim is that the
minds women possess are unsuited to the task at hand, not that women might be
different._ And this is the claim Peterson dances around continually. He'd
much rather talk about what post-scarcity people in a semi-socialist nation
focus on doing than ask the question, "How good is anyone at a given job?"

You know what? If I wasn't living the Bay Area where expenses are so high; I
wouldn't work for a tech company either. It's not a friendly place to be, and
it's a place that reviles personal growth.

[0]: Not even trans people suggest there are "no sex differences." If they
did, then why would so many go to such difficulty to do HRT and even surgical
modification? The argument is that there is more to the story of what it means
to be a woman or a man, and we should recognize that.

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neilv
This keeps happening. When someone says things like, "Women overall aren't as
good at programming", rather than responding, "There's no evidence of that"
(and then they argue that, or quietly simmer with resentment that will keep
bubbling up), I'm wondering whether it's better to respond, "What do you think
that generalization sounds like to your colleagues who are women, and to women
and girls considering the many careers and activities involving programming?"

There are other discussions to have, and some of the problems seem very
difficult, but maybe starting with a bit more sensitivity, and respecting
that, will help make progress on the problems.

(FWIW, when I started as a teen intern at a real software engineering company,
half of my team was female. The women included: one with a math degree, who
developed a fancy code path instrumentation tool for embedded systems, which
integrated with our technical workstation software; one who we'd hired away
from working on supercomputer compilers, to develop a language reverse-
engineering tool; one who was an EE; one who was an MS and published on a
technical computer graphics method; one who was a database expert with
published research. The women all were comparable to the men, who also weren't
slouches (other than me, who was just an enthusiastic but know-little intern).
Everyone was supportive, and worked together well, and there were technical
debates and people confident of their ideas, but no strutting. How that is not
the norm today, I could venture some guesses, but regardless, I don't see a
good reason it can't be the norm.)

Edit: While I typed that comment, the post was marked a dup (without a link to
whatever it's a dup of), and has dropped off the front page. Sigh.

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RickJWagner
I started work in IT in 1990. I do remember more female programmers at the
time. (Of all pay grades, some senior programmers.)

At the same time, I believe the female mind thinks differently than the male
mind. This is confirmed several times daily as I interact with my dear wife.
(This is not to say that either brain is superior for programming. I don't
believe this is true. They are just different.)

