
College vs Start-up - It's not about the job - swombat
http://danieltenner.com/posts/0004-college-vs-startup.html
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tlb
A college degree is used as a white-collar/blue-collar litmus test by a lot of
people. You probably don't care about gov't or big company jobs, but the
following might matter to you some day:

    
    
       - Immigration, if you ever decide to work abroad
    
       - Banks, if you need to finance a house
    
       - Dates. Education level is one of the main filters
    
       - Parents of women you're dating
    
       - Universities, if you ever want to hang out for a year doing research between startups
    

You might think most of those people are flexible enough to realize, once they
know you, that you're a bright & ambitious guy. But then, when they try
justify you to other people, it's harder without a college brand name.

It's probably less of a handicap in life than, say, having "PSYCHO KILLER"
tattooed across your forehead, but it's significant. You can get along, but
you'll always be explaining it. People who never went often seem to turn into
defensive people later in life. YMMV.

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wheels
The main reason I'm usually not a huge fan of the college-no-college
discussions is because they're "big identity" discussions
(<http://www.paulgraham.com/identity.html>). Most readers of this site made a
choice when they were kids or very near to it and the position that they
defend tends to reflect the choice, well informed or otherwise, that they made
then.

~~~
tigerthink
Good point. Did anyone do one or the other and regret it?

~~~
ph0rque
I regret my college loans... like I said elsewhere in this comment thread, if
I could do it over, I'd make it as cheap as possible for myself.

~~~
cconstantine
My college loans are by far the best investment I've ever made. I went to a
good in-state public school (Purdue), and lived very cheap. If they weren't at
less than 3% interest they would have been paid off in one year from the extra
money it earned me at work.

I don't understand the blanket hatred of college; it appears to come from
people who spent >$100k/yr and are now drowning in that debt. If doe properly
it's a very good thing; I learned a lot, made connections and grew as a
person. I would say it's worth more to me than what I paid.

~~~
tlrobinson
$100k/year?! I thought even the expensive ones maxed out around $50k/year?

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madcaptenor
I found a list of the most expensive colleges
([http://www.campusgrotto.com/most-expensive-colleges-
for-2008...](http://www.campusgrotto.com/most-expensive-colleges-
for-2008-2009.html)). I don't claim that this is an authoritative source but
I've seen very similar lists elsewhere). There are three colleges in the US
that break 50k per year for tuition, room, and board. There are quite a few
more between 48k and 50k, though, and so with a standard tuition hike of a few
percent they'll be over 50k next year.

My own institution is proud to be doing its own "lowest tuition hike in 41
years", at 3.8 percent. Thankfully I'm a PhD student and so I don't actually
pay my own tuition.

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jhaski
I think everyone overlooks the value of finding co-founders and ideas at top
universities.

I do not have any experience at a state school, but I would posit that it is
worth paying the premium for an Ivy just to meet some of the kids. I have
often had this discussion of whether it was worth going to college with my
friends. As I am from a small town and they are from different countries all
around the world, we would have had no connection with each other.
Additionally, the alumni base has helped me talk to tech CEOs and venture
capitalists as an 18-year old.

Even though I think the classes are pretty much worthless for long-term
success, the extracurriculars and connections you meet during your four-year
experience are the shaping factors.

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awt
What I think would be cool is if somehow high school could be replaced with
college. Allow people to specialize earlier, and hey, if it turns out they're
not interested in their specialization, at least they found out 4 years
earlier.

~~~
Zev
What happens if someone spends 3 years in a specialization they picked out
when they were 12 or 13 and realize they hate it? You can't reasonably expect
people that age to know what they want to do for the rest of their life.

~~~
SpencerDavis
I am now a senior in high school and this year I am taking classes in Data
Structures, Assembly Language and Shell Programming. I have already taken
classes in C, Unix and Java.

For me, it has been great to be able to take classes that I am actually
interested in instead of just the ones that involve the least work like many
of my friends have (CS is the only department with that many specialized
classes).

I wasn't forced to choose a specialization, if I was, I probably would not
have chosen CS at the time. I chose different classes freshman year and
started to gravitate towards CS as a sophomore. There was no commitment so I
could have stopped CS and focused on something else if it turned out that I
didn't like it.

~~~
quizbiz
Do you go to a specialized school? If only such classes were offered here. I
too am a high school senior but everything I know (little compared to you) is
self taught. I am looking to college to supplement that.

~~~
SpencerDavis
No, it is just my town's public high school.

Most of what I know is also self taught. Once you get into the more advanced
CS classes at my school, it is very independent (I am the only one in each of
my classes this year). I can ask the teacher for help on an assignment or have
him explain something if I need him too but most of the time I work
independently.

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vaksel
Why not both? I mean seriously at school worst case scenario you spend 30
hours a week going to class/doing homework. Thats a worst case scenario where
you have 22 credits + homework.

Plenty of time to do a startup on the side, especially in the early stage
where you have slow growth.

And its not like you have to become a hermit, you have plenty of time to have
a social life

~~~
tjogin
Well, one obvious downside is a mountain of debt.

~~~
vaksel
Yes, but for that you get the following:

a) Interest free debt that you don't have to even think about for 4.5 years,
and even then you only pay back a few hundred bucks a month and if you can't
they'll work with you to defer payments or adjust them.

b) No other expenses for the 4 years(rent, food, high speed internet,
utilities), nothing to worry about but school and startup.(this is if you live
on campus..which you should since your loan can cover housing)

c) Plenty of engineering talent all over the campus who can take a risk with
you and even work for free

d) Plenty of people who you can consult for advice(teachers/councilors)

e) Access to alumnis who you can eventually tap for angel level funding

f) No obligation to show up to classes/do homework...yes your grades will
suffer(if you mess up on finals), but if you are doing a startup, you don't
really need to care about grades, and this way you can be very flexible

And sure you'll end up 40-200K in debt, but so what? Everyone else is in the
same situation as you. But unlike them who'll get a job at $40k/yr, you'll
have a startup that you had 4 years to grow to profitability. And it doesn't
matter what business model you have, in 4 years anyone can get profitable.

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quilby
Im 16 and I dropped out of school to go learn CS at a university (tau.ac.il).

1\. Some of the professors are not interested in teaching- they do it because
they have to. They rarely answer questions and go way to fast over the
material.

2\. We have to take many math courses. I was very interested in math until I
got to university. Why? Because if you have a bad teacher you cant learn a
lot.

3\. Out of the about 300 people that learn with me in various courses there
are probably less than 10 who are actually interested in CS (ie. program
outside of school...).

4\. Because of (1.) it is actually easier to learn from a book and much more
efficient. You just need someone to answer the questions that you get here and
there.

The whole thing just isnt fun at all... not even close. I really dont know
what to do.

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timr
I'm going to go out on a limb, and guess that you're in your first year. Stick
it out -- the first year is the worst. The classes are large, the students are
just exploring (and aren't "interested"), the professors are teaching boring
introductory courses, and no one is particularly inspired.

Stick through this part, and you'll find that things rapidly become more
challenging and interesting.

~~~
quilby
Thats right- Im in my first year. I really hope you are right.

~~~
timr
Trust me...the professors don't like the first-year courses any more than you
do. They're a necessary evil.

Once you've selected a major, the coursework becomes _much_ more interesting
and difficult. There will be plenty to challenge you.

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djahng
I studied electrical engineering and I value my college experience and
education. However, at the same time I think college, and school in general,
instills a tunnel-vision mentality. I'm sure engineering students have heard
it before from their professors and TAs, "Specialize, specialize, specialize!"
I eventually enrolled in a PhD program, until I was able to take a step back
and I realized that I didn't enjoy what I was studying, but rather I was still
in school because while in school I believed I didn't have a choice.

I've always wanted to start my own business. It was at this point that I
realized something: I don't want a PhD, I want to hire PhDs. :)

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fuzzmeister
This is the exact situation I'm in. I'm 18, a high school senior, and am
absolutely certain that I want to found a web company. However, I know that
were I just to thrust myself into the world right now, I'd always be kicking
myself because I didn't have a basic liberal arts education. While a knowledge
of philosophy or political history isn't critical to what I will be doing
business-wise later in life, I have a feeling that it will be critical to
letting me feel like a whole person.

~~~
unalone
Do what I did - go to college, and spend every free minute working on your
project. If you find college doesn't work for you, you'll have a great thing
to rebound with.

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jaymstr
This is a tough one. I sometimes regret choosing to go to college, but it
truly changed everything for me. I studied Materials Engineering, and now I'm
doing a web startup, but I really believe the college experience, the
connections I've made, and the failure in multiple ways in college (not in
classes thankfully) has helped me prepare to take the leap to full time
entrepreneur.

~~~
ph0rque
Yup... if I knew then what I knew now (a moot point, admittedly), I'd audit
classes or do the cheapest possible thing to be associated with the university
without paying for it, and simultaneously work on startups/projects.

~~~
jaymstr
I wouldn't say it is the classes though. College transformed me as a person
and forced me to grow up. Maybe it helps that I go to Drexel where we have co-
op (school for 6 months, work for 6 months, repeat). Anyway, I would not have
been prepared to lead a start up right out of high school. Today, I think I'm
ready.

~~~
ph0rque
Sure... I meant participate in a startup/project, not lead it right away.

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andylei
I think it really depends on what kind of university you get into. If you get
into a university like MIT, Stanford, CalTech, etc, there's a good chance that
you'll be surrounded by a lot of entrepreneurial engineers. Even if you don't
get a lot out of classes there, you'll at least meet a lot of interesting
people that you can found with, or at the very least, be friends with.

Now meeting hackers at other schools is also possible, and I'd say pretty
probable, if you try hard enough.

Having a network of hackers is pretty useful, especially for founding, and I
think people underrate the value of relationships developed in college.
There's no other environment quite like college, and even if you don't agree
that the relationships built in that environment aren't uniquely valuable, I
think you can probably agree that they're unique.

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domdelimar
I'd agree you don't need a degree to be a successful entrepreneur. However, as
an entrepreneur I believe (since I can't claim to be one, not yet) you take
risks that may lead you into the situation where you have to get a regular job
so that you can survive, even if temporarily.

If that ever happens to me, I'm betting my X number of years spent earning my
college degree will help me find a better job with a higher wage than if I
didn't have a degree.

That was one of my personal reasons to go to college. I positive I could do
without it but I think I'll feel somewhat safer in life knowing I can still
have a good career if everything else fails.

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bitwize
Go to a state school if you live in the US. It's cheaper and you are more
likely to encounter professors who are interested in teaching, rather than
their classes being a distraction from research and getting published.

~~~
ibsulon
I'm not saying that professors aren't interested in teaching at state schools,
but I have found that pressure is as high or higher for professors to publish.

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unalone
Small styling comment: the a:hover underline appears in between your border
styling and the link itself, which looks a little odd.

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gourneau
"Ultimately, university is supposed to train you for life, not for a job." --
wonderful

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chiffonade
If you choose not to go to college do everyone a favor and don't have a chip
on your shoulder about it and bring it up at every opportunity and talk shit
about people who do.

Nobody really cares that much.

