
Ask HN: Not smart enough to a programmer, where to take my life from here? - throwaway88p
So I&#x27;ve been working in the industry for a while, and as a hobbyist for a good bit of time before that. Currently my career have consisted of writing and maintaining simple CRUD apps, and to be honest I hate it. Its mind numbingly boring and I certainly dont want to spend my life doing that. I&#x27;ve tried to branch out  into a number of different things, but nothing sticks. I fail to understand, fail to recognize patterns, am too slow to understand simple concepts and never retain anything. Occasionally understand the individual concepts of something but then her completely lost when they&#x27;re all combined in some applied method. Thi bis true not just for CS and software development, but other technical and mathematical subjects I&#x27;ve attempted to learn.<p>The typical suggestions for people in my situation dont interest me. These seem to be roles adjacent to what I do now and often, but closer to business then tech. These might include becoming a business analyst, technical salesman, fast tracking to management, etc. These are sound even worse to me than what I do now, and given the choice I&#x27;d just stick with development.<p>Now I&#x27;d likely have to return to some sort of schooling and I&#x27;m young enough to do it (I guess), but given my intellectual limitation and my stubbornness on what I take interest in, I&#x27;m not sure what options I have.
======
godelski
I may be off base here, but it sounds to me like you just aren't interested in
the subjects. One of the biggest factors to learning is how much interest you
have. There are tricks you can do to get yourself more interested, but it does
take a fair amount of work and isn't always effective. But if you wonder why
sometimes we can remember silly details or whole complicated plotlines from
stories but can't remember a simple math formula, a lot of it is actually your
interest levels. Your brain prioritizes the stories because it is interesting,
you can relate, and thus form strong neural connections. It is much harder to
do that with a math equation that is fairly abstract and not in constant use.

So I would start at finding which thing interests you the most. What meets the
job criteria that you are looking for BUT also excites you? Then focus on
moving in that direction.

~~~
farias0
Yeah, I guess the real question here is "do you love programming?" If you do
you can make it work, it's a matter of not giving up and instead tweaking your
learning system, practicing more and better, etc. If you don't you need to
find another area.

Programming is a very demanding trade, and I don't think you can do it just
for the paycheck, you need to have some degree of passion for it. If someone
disagrees with me about this I'd love to hear different takes.

~~~
pengaru
> Programming is a very demanding trade, and I don't think you can do it just
> for the paycheck, you need to have some degree of passion for it. If someone
> disagrees with me about this I'd love to hear different takes.

There are more people writing programs as a daily grind for a paycheck than as
passionate artisans practicing their craft, and it's only getting more so as
"CS" becomes an increasingly blue-collar field.

What you said strikes me as a rather dated view of programming. It was
certainly more true back when just to operate a computer required significant
resources, skill, and perseverance. It used to be such a horribly tedious,
time-consuming chore to program them, that it often required something like
passionate interest to stick it through.

~~~
4RRLxFWs
Not sure what you're disagreeing with. I don't think the person you're
responding to thinks it's /impossible to get a gig as a programmer for a
while, but that it's not going to yield a fulfilling career if one is merely
chasing a paycheck. I think that's about right.

------
thomasmeeks
My intuition is that you’d get more out of therapy than a career change right
now. This sounds more like burnout or a lack of interest to me. But framing it
as a lack of intelligence says a lot about how you view yourself, which could
make a career change much harder than it needs to be.

~~~
samatman
I'd like to elaborate on this, and strongly urge OP to see a psychiatrist.

The answer to your dilemma might be a new career. It might be cognitive
behavioral therapy. It also might be an SSRI or modafinil.

I have my guesses but they aren't at all interesting, the point is to get in
touch with a professional who can help you figure this out.

What you're experiencing isn't normal, or inevitable, and it doesn't mean
you're not intelligent. Although hey, you might not be, how would I know? I
think that's the least likely explanation out of all of them.

~~~
vldx
How modafinil might help? As treatment of potential undiagnosed ADHD?

~~~
samatman
Yeah, distinct possibility IMHO.

------
madhadron
My advice in this situation is:

1\. Keep your job for now. This is a good time to have a paycheck. Think of it
as chores to pay the mortgage. Maybe you'll get a dishwasher later, but for
now the dishes gotta get washed.

2\. Find a psychiatric or clinical psychologist and have yourself evaluated
for mental illness. This is actually really important. Unlike physical
problems where it's sometimes obvious ("I can't read the billboard by the
road, I probably need glasses."), mental issues can make subjective
impressions unreliable or misleading.

> I fail to understand, fail to recognize patterns, am too slow to understand
> simple concepts and never retain anything. Occasionally understand the
> individual concepts of something but then her completely lost when they're
> all combined

Too slow compared to what? Fail to recognize based on how many exposures?
Taken together this feels like a learning disability that makes you slow to
internalize material in the standard way, and you're not building up the
mastery of the fundamentals enough before trying to combine them. Again,
psychological evaluation is the way to go.

Also, don't look for work where you love it all the time. No one's going to
pay you for that. What you're after is work that you can do and feel some
basic satisfaction when you put it down for the day instead of being cast into
a downward spiral by it.

You also are allowed to have other stuff that provides the meaning and
enrichment for their lives. In fact, you should.

------
cschep
It's possible, though I don't know you, that you're too smart to be a
programmer.

And maybe "programmer" is the problem. Be a _____ who can also code. Zed Shaw
said it best in the final pages of learn python the hard way. Programming as a
career is rarely fulfilling to anyone. But being a
teacher/doctor/librarian/entrepreneur/warehouse worker/farmer/etc. that can
code is a super power.

I'm basically talking to myself with this pep talk so I appreciate you
bringing it up but.. let's both go find the thing that we like and apply
programming to that thing!

~~~
geocrasher
This. My own suspicion is that you the OP is highly intelligent and recognizes
all of these weaknesses due to his own intelligence rather than a lack of it.

I can relate to some of these things in a way. When I was 15 I tried to teach
myself TC++. I got hung up on pointers and thought that I just wasn't smart
enough to understand them. Many years later I had somebody who helped me
understand pointers and I realized that I just wasn't interested in learning
past that point.

I had kicked myself many times for not following through on learning TC++. I
thought that I was too dumb to be a programmer. Turns out I just don't want to
be a programmer! Sure I can bash script pretty well and I can knock together
some PHP to do something if I absolutely have to or even a little python, but
I only get out those tools when I neede them to accomplish a primary goal.

It turns out that I'm quite good at writing, teaching, and identifying areas
where specific tools can help the people who I am teaching. So I write, teach,
and build tools as needed.

And just because I do them in bash or do them poorly in Python doesn't mean
that I'm bad at programming. It just means it's not where my strengths are and
that I focus on what I am good at and love doing.

I guess what I'm really trying to say is that you aren't a bad programmer.
You're just better and more interested in something else and you need to
figure out what that thing is and pursue it and put programming on the back
burner as a superpower as was mentioned in the previous comment above this
one.

~~~
asknthrow2020
On the other hand though, could you say that someone's interests are to a
degree dictated by their capabilities? It seems to me like the distinguishing
factor between someone who is interested in a challenging field vs. someone
who is not, is that the person interested often understands the material to a
degree that maybe the other person is unable to. For them studying and doing
the work may take substantially less effort and thus their interest continues,
even when things become difficult.

This is probably why many programmers are uninterested in your chosen field of
teaching.

TLDR, isn't "disinterest" often a cognitive bias driven by some subconscious
estimation that we're unable to do something?

I think this affects everyone, a lot.

~~~
cschep
Yes, and! Things are often less black and white than this. The more I dig into
what I think I want, the more influences I find. I want to impress my parents,
I want to provide a super safe and comfortable life for my partner, I want
people to notice the company I work for and smile and think I'm smart. As I
take the time to pull those things apart, and wow does it take time, the call
to teach and write is quieter but maybe truer? I don't know. I have to test it
out.

TL;DR I think disinterest is driven by a combination of capability and soul
AND (sometimes very loud) outside influences.

------
blahbhthrow3748
This sounds like depression to me. You're having trouble finding activities
that interest you and feeling pessimistic about the future. It's easy to get
stuck thinking that everything is hopeless or you're going to feel like this
forever.

Try taking some time off to decompress and talking to a psychologist. It's a
slow process and it can be very challenging but with time you can start
getting excited about new challenges again.

~~~
bawana
+1. Depression affects 25% adults at some point. I am not talking about
‘sadness’ but a more profound condition whose symptoms are subtle at first,
but pervasive and protean. And get a CT of your brain as well.

------
Avshalom
Yeah the good news is that if you find CRUD apps mind numbing then you are
definitely smart enough to be a programmer.

Sooo... right now thanks to covid19 basically every class at your local
community college is online try a GIS class, it's a little bit python, a
little bit SQL, a little bit data science-y and sometimes you go fly a drone
around.

Or you know something else, the point is there's plenty of fields that aren't
explicitly tech adjacent that the ability to program at all gives you a
somewhere between a head start and superpowers.

BUT also I'm with the other guys too, maybe talk to a therapist.

------
fencepost
Do you actually suck at this or do you have a great case of impostor syndrome
(perhaps a pattern you're failing to recognize?)? You might be surprised at
where you'd rank compared to the general population.

As far as retaining things, there's an awful lot of stuff where you don't need
to remember the details - knowing something exists lets you go find details
when needed, and the more useful items will stick with you after you start
using them regularly. I'll use trees as an example - there are more different
kinds of trees and ways to implement them than you can shake a stick at, but
most programmers aren't going to need to implement any of them ever. Do you
need to remember details about balancing, etc? Probably not.

~~~
putsjoe
> knowing something exists lets you go find details when needed

Thank you for this, it's a nice concise way to explain that even the
experienced use Google all of the time.

------
throw3848yui
I am something you could consider smart; wrote first program as 6 years old,
gave talks at conferences, worked on crypto-concesus algos, now I do research
oriented consulting.

Some points:

\- pattern recognition is basic brain function and everyone has it

\- you need PERFECT health to be smart; check testosterone, sleep, weight,
nofap, exercise etc.. 90% people have brain fog for some stupid fixable reason

\- there is nothing wrong with CRUD app maintenance if you make good money.
Challenge is nice, but gets old very fast, unless it is a hobby.

\- avoid relationship until your life is in order. Huge time sink and ruins
concentration.

\- stop reading crap (politics, twitter... )

~~~
xf1cf
There is nothing in this comment that strikes me as real. Not only was it
completely unnecessarily to condescendingly talk about how allegedly smart you
are, the points you gave sound like they came straight out of a wantrepreneur
youtuber's vlog.

~~~
throw3848yui
I think OP struggles with concentration, this could fix that.

Not sure what was condescending. And I am smart, my mother had me tested ;)

~~~
cambalache
As it was said elsewhere, you present yourself as the stupid person version of
a smart person. Maybe it is true, maybe it is not.

------
hyperpallium
Diagnosis: bored.

See other comments on interest. I'll address your thoughts. You're speaking
casually, but your exaggerations can be dangerous when you're vulnerable:

> nothing sticks.

Not literally true that "nothing" sticks, since you later mention things you
recall.

> I fail to understand, fail to recognize patterns

There's partial understanding and levels of understanding. You can notice
progress by comparing your present understanding with before.

> am too slow to understand simple concepts

Here you admit you do gain understanding, but dismiss it. What is the
threshold for fast enough?

> and never retain anything.

Again, not literally true that "nothing" is retained.

> Occasionally understand the individual concepts of something but then her
> completely lost when they're all combined in some applied method.

Again, you admit understanding, but dismiss it because of difficulty in the
next step. Also, "completely" lost is not literally true.

\---

These casual exaggerations are dangerous when you start to believe them,
because they aren't literally true. Changing them won't solve the problem
completely, but you'll see it more clearly and that helps to solve it! Advice:

    
    
      notice what you _have_
      retained/understood/applied
      (especially in contrast with before)
    

[But the real problem is boredom]

------
PinkMilkshake
The only fun I've ever had programming was making video games.

You don't have to be super smart to make games and I don't think you even have
to like them. It's more the rich visual feedback that makes it fun. A game
engine is like a giant virtual playground for your code.

And in video games there isn't really a "right way" to do anything. There are
always weird problems to solve and hacky solutions are fun and even expected.
It's the only programming where I've had some laugh out loud moments, like
"why are the trees inside out and spinning around?"

There are some great game dev postmortems where you learn about the beautiful
horrors going on behind the scenes to make a vision a reality. Game dev is
forgiving like that. From the book _3D Math Primer for Graphics and Game
Development_ : "If it looks right, it is right".

------
dasil003
Hard to offer any kind of constructive advice without some indication of your
personality or what you _do_ enjoy.

I'm skeptical of the idea that you're not smart enough. In my experience,
becoming a good programmer requires some relatively low-threshold capacity for
logical thinking combined with a tenacity for debugging and understanding how
things work. Being a genius who picks up math and CS concepts quickly is far
from required.

If you struggle with patterns and applications but are bored by simple CRUD
apps then it may be the case that you just don't like programming that much.
That would certainly make it very difficult to learn and retain anything.

Overall though, you sound more depressed than anything. If that is the case
then it colors all perception of what you enjoy or don't enjoy, and probably
should be addressed directly before making any major career decisions.

------
heldrida
We only live once! Respect yourself and your feelings! Don't waste your energy
listening to opinions of how you are supposed to feel, they are not you!
People love to throw the buzz word around as if coding is the best thing
ever...! The end users don't care! Employeers don't care! The people you
create this things for don't care about how you feel! Find something that
makes you happy and has a meaning in yours and other people's life! Beware
that a lot of the people that tells you to take a break and that you're just
tired, are not that sympathetic when you'd try to get back to the job market,
where they'd ask you to go through 5 stage interviews and totally waste your
time for no other reason then their own bullshit job. Be careful!

If you do want to try later on and do something related with tech, not
necessarily as a coder, have in mind the bizarre startup world! A lot of
people get funding for simple business ideas! So try to live a fulfilling life
and if you ever want to comeback do your own business and create a nice work
environment for your team!

------
fabatka
I don't think you are supposed to "find your dream job" or whatever. Work is
just a slice of life, and I think you should try to find something outside
work that makes you happy (art? forming a serious relationship and devoting
yourself to it? anything, really). If you are so lucky that you work in IT,
you don't have to do much more than the minimum to live a relatively
comfortable life, and be able to concentrate on things outside of your work.
That world is much bigger, and you surely can find something that makes you
feel fulfilled.

------
Alex63
It's interesting to me that you say you did software development as a hobbyist
before you made it your job. So presumably there was something that interested
you enough to pursue it in your spare time. It would be interesting to know
more about what does interest you, as opposed to the things that don't. Maybe
you could provide more info?

I agree with commentators who say software development can be a terrible job
if you aren't really interested in it. I knew a lot of young consultants at
Accenture when I worked there in the early 90s who hated the programming roles
they were expected to do for the first couple of years. But most of them were
not from comp sci backgrounds, and wanted to move into management consulting
roles as quickly as possible.

Based on your comments about having trouble learning and generalizing, it
sounds like you might be happier in a more process-oriented role. Or maybe you
would be happier in a role that was more focused on personal interaction?

------
fegu
Even CRUD apps can have fun stuff: APIs, live GUI updates for everyone else
logged in when a user makes a change, security (both designing and
pentesting), building your own toolbox for accelerating development of the
next one, usage monitoring etc. Some of these will impress clients and make
your superior recognize you as a talent. This will make it more fun and open
up new possibilities all by itself.

------
spyckie2
just to add in -

you're not slow, you're probably average. When you start working, all the
things you can learn in a weekend quickly evaporate within 1-2 years of your
working career. The only things left to learn are those that take 3 months or
more.

These things take the right mindset to learn - continuing to think about them,
tackle them, ignoring failure and coming back to it over and over because
that's the nature of 3 month learning projects.

You may think you're stupid but you're probably average for a programmer. I do
agree with the rest of the thread, you're lacking the spark - the thing that
other people have that allows them to persist despite the challenge to figure
it out.

Take a personality test, like MBTI, and use it to figure out your preferences.
Introverted Feelers are usually smart enough (NFs) to do programming but hate
it, it could describe yourself.

~~~
Sammi
MBTI is pseudoscience without any empirical backing:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myers%E2%80%93Briggs_Type_Indi...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myers%E2%80%93Briggs_Type_Indicator)

Really the only personality test with any strong empirical backing is the Big
Five test:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Five_personality_traits](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Five_personality_traits)

All other personality tests reduce down to the Big Five when you try to test
for co variance.

~~~
spyckie2
The exercise is about finding a language that you can use to describe your
shared values. For that use case MBTI is perfectly fine.

------
musicale
Sadly most people aren't particularly enthusiastic about their work, which is
probably a huge waste of human potential, but it's not an unusual situation to
be working just to pay the bills. Paying bills is good.

It's probably a good idea to keep your day job while you develop interests
outside of work and investigate other job options. School can be good, but it
can also saddle you with expensive student loans that take several decades to
pay off.

------
oceanghost
HI, have you been screened for ADHD/ADD? A number of the things you've said
sound familiar to me. ADHD (generally) gets worse as you get older.

------
pinkrobotics
Do art. Find passion. Do passion.

Or,

Find love. Have children. Be a great parent.

Coding is just a tool, a means to an end, not a career. If you don't like
using a keyboard/multimeter/hammer, don't work in an area that requires a
keyboard/multimeter/hammer.

Painting and parenting can both be very rewarding, and make you very happy
over a lifetime.

As for money, enough to get by, _can_ be enough. Life doesn't have to be about
ways to get money.

~~~
liziwizi
yes, i tend to agree with the passion-part of this.

use your free time to do things that excite you, things that motivate you.

a job is a job. you need it to pay the bills. if you can do a job that pays
well and you can work in reasonable comfort, appreciate it. there a terrible
jobs out there, be glad you don't have to do those.

but you also need passion to avoid getting burned out. if you can't find it in
your job, find it in your life, in your hobbies, in your relations.

your job should just be a means to an end. it should support your private
life: food, a roof over your head, security and your passions.

maybe visit a therapist to work out what triggers and excites you.

a change of scenery (changing your job) might help for a short while, but
unless you work on the underlying issue, the problem will catch up and follow
you around.

------
ssss11
I had friends drop out of CS degree or IT career - they each went on to become
successful at health & safety, physical education, statistics and formal
project management. Theres limitless options but narrowing down your next move
is the hard part... what aspects of work do you enjoy and perhaps go from
there? dont kick yourself over choosing the wrong path, hindsight is 20:20

------
goodcanadian
I am a software engineer. At least, that is what my job title says. However, I
would also find coding CRUD apps boring as hell. What I really am is a problem
solver. Currently, I solve problems using code. I think the trick is to get
into a company that has problems that interest you. Personally, I work with
hardware and embedded systems.

As for understanding new tools and techniques, I'm never able to do it unless
I have a real problem that I'm working on that requires it. Toy problems and
coding exercises won't work because the problem is contrived and isn't a real
problem that needs fixing. Math, especially, is a wonderful tool, but I'm not
interested in it for its own sake. This doesn't mean you are stupid.

So, figure out what you want to be doing and figure out who's doing it. If you
are young enough to return to schooling, you are probably young enough to get
an entry level position if your skills are a bit weak in the required area.

------
severak_cz
I started with programming as hobbyist. I never actually studied it (beside
some basics which I already known when they teach me that).

I ended up writing CRUDs, various data converters and fixing bizzare bugs in
legacy software. Slowly I lost interest in programming and I discovered that I
am no longer interested in new tech. I completely missed javascript hype train
for example.

But it's OK. It's just a job. I have other hobbies/friends to feel fullfilled.

Also - I keep programming as hobby. I just more interested WHAT I am doing
instead HOW I am doing that (which is just usually easiest path).

For example - I really started digging into audio programming - basically
coding my own VSTs in Csound/Cabbage. That's really interesting stuff and also
sometimes very challenging, because it involves math which I am generally
struggling with (I had diagnosed discalculia back at the school).

For example: I just spend two days (!) inventing this little piece of code:
f(k,n) = (k * n) - (k-1)

------
hopeithelps53
How long have you been programming professionally? Do you think you are giving
yourself a fair assessment based on how long you have been working in the
industry? I ask to rule out the possibility that you are being hard on
yourself or maybe have imposter syndrom. you say you find crud app building
easy, this is not a statement which the general non-it population could say.
Did you attend courses before working (university, college etc.)? Do you have
good on the job mentorship or are you trying to figure everything out
yourself? Do you have a person who is more senior who can give you honest
constructive feedback and guidance?

If youve already made the decision you are leaving programming... Can you
think of things you have enjoyed about your career to date (i.e. coding,
testing, designing, meeting people etc)? and what was it that steered you
towards the career in the first place?

------
keiferski
Have you looked into computer networking and other IT-type topics? I’ve often
found that networking specifically uses different skills and is suited for
different people than programming. It’s more about systems, rather than logic,
which (personally) I find more in-tune with my mental makeup.

~~~
throwaway88p
I actually have thought about it, but I'm not sure if I could stand starting
at the bottom of those fields, plus the salaries cap much lower.

------
TrackerFF
Do you enjoy creating stuff with the tools?

I've been interested in programming since I was a teen, but it was always the
applied side - I enjoy building stuff, and the tools are just like any other
tools you'd use.

I don't find the tools or methods particularly interesting, not nearly
interesting enough to devote a huge part of my time to study them extensively.

And it was with that realization that I understood the following: I will never
become a good computer scientist, theoretical or practical.

So my solution was simple: Do not chase, or focus jobs which require a passion
or deep interest in computer science, because:

1) There are far more highly intelligent and highly passionate programmers out
there, that are genuinely interested in the theory and technicalities. I will
never be able to compete with those.

2) I will burn out spending my days on something which does not naturally
interest me (enough to do it for min. 8 hours a day)

3) My energy should be directed at being more productive, where I can actually
show good results. We have a finite amount of time to do something, so don't
waste it.

All these realizations came during college. Some of my classmates would read
books on compilers in their spare time, because they simply could not wait for
the classes (which we had a year later).

Compilers are fascinating on a high level, but not fascinating enough for me
to read whole books on them.

Furthermore - to me, proof of concept (and novelty) is more fascinating than
the optimal solution.

There are lots of jobs for both types, you just need to find out what really
tickles you, and follow that lead. As others have said, bridging fields
("businessman" and "developer", etc.) can be really rewarding.

Think of something that really interests you; Anything! And then try to find
out how you can enhance that with development. Do it because it's fun, not
because it's something you feel like forcing yourself to do.

~~~
sambarina
I found myself in the same boat recently, and looking for jobs/roles which is
half business, half tech. I looked into "Solutions Engineer", but a bit afraid
I loose my ability to code.

What did you pursue? Any tips?

~~~
TrackerFF
I pursued data science, It's a good blend of tech and domain knowledge.

The domain is what interests me, and the technical part is what makes it
enjoyable. The amount of programming is probably one tenth (if even that) of
what a regular software engineer would write, but there's always room for new
ideas. Lately I've found myself writing more and more code for automation and
other auxiliary stuff.

In the end you want to apply technical and scientific methods to the data,
guided by your domain expertise, and deliver results to someone.

For some, it's nothing more than cleaning excel spreadsheets and generating
reports, for others it's building and using state of the art machine learning
methods on extremely large data sets - so not all data science jobs are alike
from a technical standpoint.

------
not_a_moth
You are smart enough to be a programmer, you just have misconceptions about
what programmers are supposed to be.

All that really matters is if you can build things that work.

People who can do the above will get paid, can even be CTOs.

So what if Google wouldn't want you as a programmer, that's for a particular
type of person.

------
bbrree66
Firm but necessary feedback:

When I read this I see me me me me me me me me me.

Think of things in terms of how you are helping others instead of so selfishly
about yourself. The world doesn't exist to serve you. What are you expecting,
some amazing job to fall down from the sky that is all about you and
everything you want? Doesn't work that way! You need some career capital. What
value can you provide in exchange for these things you are asking for? If you
want an interesting and fun career you need to be skilled enough at something
to counter balance the value you receive.

More concretely: there is a fantastic book called "So Good They Can't Ignore
You" by Cal Newport. Give that a read and it will provide guidance and a new
framework with which to see the world.

------
cosmosa
I would be grateful you have a job; most software engineering jobs pay
relatively well. Be grateful for this pay.

Find something outside of work that excites you if work doesn't excite you.
Work isn't everything. If the actual thing you do at work doesn't excite you,
try making friends at work who do excite you.

If writing simple CRUD apps is boring, it sounds like you actually have some
aptitude afterall. If it's boring, try to find the sweet spot of challenge
with capability. It sounds like you are capable of more than what you are
doing now, so gravitate in that direction and move from there.

------
vijucat
What subject excites you that doing a course on Coursera or Udemy, for
example, doesn't make you feel like, "Groan, 6 hours a week x 6 weeks?!"? Do
that course + talk on the Coursera forum with other students and reach out to
folks in the industry who'd value seeing that certification on your resume /
LinkedIn.

About feelings: you have to feel your feelings, but productivity is difficult
if you're always feeling down. Don't beat up yourself, which adds a 2nd layer
of sadness to an already sad situation. Get enough sleep and work on things
that excite you.

------
twomoretime
I'm going to buck the trend here and say that if intelligence is approximately
normally distributed, there will always be some proportion of the population
that doesn't meet the minimum in the necessary dimensions.

The point is not to demoralize someone, but to prevent them from spending a
lifetime of angst and anguish in a field that is not totally beyond their
grasp but always just far enough above their head to keep them questioning
themselves constantly.

OP, it sounds like you've given this a shot and it didn't quite stick. Maybe
it's time to try something else. For what it's worth, I felt the same for much
of my education, studying physics and passing curved tests but never really
feeling like I understood mathematics - and it's a terrible feeling to be
somewhere where everyone presumes that anyone is capable of anything while
you're here struggling.

I did manage to complete my degree but I ended up specializing in something
where I could leverage the mathematical intuition I developed without having
to fake my way through actual math, and I'm fairly successful. Perhaps you can
do something similar.

The way the entire thread bends over backwards to find something "wrong" with
OP, some external, fixable explanation, is counterproductive. These sorts of
expectations are good to have but if they are not grounded in the reality of
individual ability, they can lead to serious mental health problems.

------
benkitzelman
Fear of change keeps you locked into misery. If at all possible take steps to
get a new vision of your future and change careers, cos your current vision of
your future is sounding pretty bleak (at least from your perspective).

If you need encouragement, try and find others stories of career change, and
how they did it - there are plenty of them out there.... From
[https://www.ambisie.com/st/kerry-kitzelman](https://www.ambisie.com/st/kerry-
kitzelman) :

"Some jobs can be like golden handcuffs. They pay well but you feel trapped by
them. You are afraid to step out and make a change in case you wind up worse
than before. Some jobs are like cardboard handcuffs, they pay nothing but you
still allow yourself to be trapped by them because of fear of the unknown.

Making a decision to change may indeed result in your fears being realised,
but facing that fear gives you the courage to overcome.

Since the day I decided to cut the umbilical cord to poorly paid employment, I
have not been afraid to apply for any position I think I might enjoy and be
rewarded for. It sometimes means steep learning curves and working harder than
anyone else on your team, especially those that have the experience you don't.
But the reward is that the world opens up to you. There is so much more
opportunity than you could possibly have imagined."

------
tekkk
If you like to work by your hands, there are vast amount of opportunities out
there. And it's perfectly fine to pursue a career as an electrician or a cook
et cetera. It may not be rocket science but with the satisfaction of getting
things done and having satisfied customers and good co-workers, it can be fun.

But if you really can't think of anything that suits you or motivates you,
then I think the problem is your own behavior and thinking patterns, that you
need to change. You seem to have gotten stuck in a rut, so a nice break from
it in a form of say school doesn't seem like a bad idea.

Don't however, let the fallacy of sunk cost misguide you. Just because you
have been doing software development doesn't mean you can't switch to manual
labour. Or that your next job has to be somehow related to your current.
Listen to your own emotions and thoughts, don't let the past weight you down.

For example, that one very good programmer and Youtuber, bisqwit, actually
works as a bus driver. Which I think is really encouraging in showing that
even if you are really good at something (or you like to do as your hobby),
doesn't mean you have to pursue it as your career.

------
helph67
It might help us to know what hobbies/interests you have. Do you like animals
or plants? Getting involved in horticulture may be very good for your long
term health. In fact, most people would benefit... [https://blog.strong-
brain.com/outdoors-for-physical-mental-h...](https://blog.strong-
brain.com/outdoors-for-physical-mental-health-green/)

------
werber
Figure out what makes you happy while you do the bare minimum and use your
nights and free time to make it happen, It's hard to sludge you anything you
don't like, and it's hard to tell someone "I hate my well paying career",
without sounding ungrateful. Don't let yourself believe this is an
intellectual fault, not being a technical person doesn't mean you're dumb.

------
mr_gibbins
I'd like to quote the inestimable and late Richard Feynman here.

“Study hard what interests you the most in the most undisciplined, irreverent
and original manner possible.”

“You have no responsibility to live up to what other people think you ought to
accomplish. I have no responsibility to be like they expect me to be. It's
their mistake, not my failing.”

------
zoomablemind
I sense a frustration with status quo. As always it's a spectrum of causes.
Job, or purpose may just be one. Important one, no doubt, but sometimes not
the decisive one. Young hearts are movable, so are their minds, given enough
interest either from within or from outside.

Being you, I'd first try to figure out how much money I need to feel
comfortable. Then ask if I can afford to be less comfortable and for how long.
Then I'd look if anyone else depends on me for their comfort.

Finally, I'd try to imagine what I'd do in my free time should I forget about
all of the above. AND for how long would I be ready to stay oblivious in that.

If I see myself making money while doing that thing that I imagined, I try to
write it down and later figure out a plan to make that happen... eventually.

Meanwhile, I'd take some rest and solve something approacheable. This will
sure be a booster, to start believing that you've got that thing that you
think matters in life. And you can make it better!

------
burntoutfire
If you're employed as a programmer and not being fired for incompetence, then
you are actually smart enough to be a programmer.

~~~
metroholografix
In more than 20 years of programming, I've never seen an incompetent
programmer get fired.

------
adverbly
When was the last time you were working on something and lost track of time?
This an indicator that you were in a flow state. Dont go for something you
love doing - not everyone has that. Find something you can focus on, and that
you can zone out while doing. This is honestly all most people can hope for.

------
jackyinger
This sounds kindof like a pathological mode of thinking I sometimes get into.
So here’s what I do to escape that mode of thinking/feeling when I find myself
in it. Hopefully it will help.

If you find yourself having trouble figuring something out, do not beat
yourself up over how much trouble you’re having. That type of thought takes
you down a really rough negative spiral.

Instead, focus on your desire and will to figure it out or get it done.
Believe in your ability to figure it out and then go prove yourself right by
using your will to do so to power the work that will get your where you want
to go.

You have the power to pull yourself out of the rut, and you can get help from
folks like counselors and peers too. But fundamentally, I have found that it
takes a strong internal will to get out of a rut. I think that you can find
that will and act upon it.

------
dkersten
Do you find you have problems concentrating and focusing on things that
interest you? Also, do you by any chance do a lot of high dopamine low effort
activities (eg, videogames, social media, television, recreational drugs, junk
food)? If yes to both then perhaps try a dopamine “detox” to reset your
receptors.

I found that I was finding it harder and harder to do things that take effort,
even if they interested me (programming for work or fun, reading mom-fiction
material, chores, etc) but instead spent a lot of time on HN (errr..),
youtube, playing videogames, eating junk food... By abstaining from all
stimulating activities, to make “low dopamine” the new normal, I could make
the payoff of high effort activities worthwhile again. Concentration and
motivation improved.

------
brailsafe
Certainly smart enough to do the vast majority of work in professional
software dev which is basically CRUD, and smart enough to realize that it is
easy and boring. I'd go back to school anyway and see of there's not some
research in any other field you might be interested in.

------
codac_mac
I often worry about this myself, and I highly agree with what some others are
saying: find a problem/task that interests you or is worth solving - and work
on it until it's solved, regardless of how difficult it is or inadequate it
may make you feel by not understanding it at first. If you can't find a
challenge, then maybe try going out of your way to add new feature
/functionality to your CRUD apps. The challenges are always there if you keep
an eye out.

Again,I really believe its more about preserveerance and interest, not
inherent intelligence. If you can build and maintain CRUD apps without an
issue, then with time and effort I am certain you could progress to other more
interesting challenges given enough effort.

~~~
throwaway88p
> find a problem/task that interests you or is worth solving - and work on it
> until it's solved, regardless of how difficult

I guess part of the problem is that those problems tend to be rare. The way I
feel, is that if I have a problem, it's likely already been solved (in which
case I'll just use that solution), or people much more intelligent than me are
already working on it.

Another issue seems be be is that as time goes on, the problems I take
interest in seem to become much more difficult to solve. This may be because
they are technically complex, but can be for other reasons too. Often I don't
even know _what_ I need to be learning / researching to solve a problem, and
that basically halts me.

~~~
ximeng
You could consider talking more about what you are interested in, what makes
you happy, and less about the problems with your current situation. If you
have even a little bit of energy that you can put towards something which you
care about more than what you're working on now, you can start to move your
life in a new direction. Eventually you'll start to take some risks that you
are not brave enough to take now, but you need to be positive. Don't worry
about making drastic changes now, they can come when you're ready.

Complex problems are good if you care about them. A smart person working on it
is a good sign. You just need to find a small way to contribute or even just
to learn, you don't need to take over the world. Just do one small thing
towards finding what you care about.

In short, don't worry about changing your current routine and job, try to find
something you really care about and work more on that in your free time. Trust
your gut.

------
seneca
So, by your own admission, you aren't intelligent enough to excel in your
current profession. You're not interested in pivoting to adjacent fields. Your
constraints are basically that you're not capable of, or interested in, any
technical, or tech adjacent, fields. HN might have a hard time helping you
here, since the fields you're ruling out are exactly what the site focuses on.

It sounds like you're basically at square one. Do you have another skill set?
Are you particularly interested in some other field? It's difficult for a
stranger to give you life advice when all we know is what you are not
interested in or capable of. Tell us more about what does feel engaging for
you, and we may be able to help more.

------
iamcreasy
> I've tried to branch out into a number of different things, but nothing
> sticks. I fail to understand, fail to recognize patterns, am too slow to
> understand simple concepts and never retain anything.

I am doing my Masters in Statistics after doing my BS in Computer Science. It
was overwhelming and like you, I felt I do not understand even the basic
concepts and it takes longer to grasp the simpler concepts. But I realized I
just have to spend more time on topics I do not understand and ask for help
from my peers.

From my experience, in terms of learning new subject, I think what you are
feeling/facing is expected and you just have to push through it.

------
canarypilot
You say you’re stubborn on what you take an interest in. Could you expand on
that?

The other prompt that felt interesting to me was that you feel an intellectual
limitation in terms of what you retain, what does that look like in practice?

------
ta1234567890
Are there any activities that you enjoy doing for hours at a time without
draining you?

You might want to use that as a starting point and then branch out.

Alternatively, it seems like you might be struggling with anxiety/impatience
and you might want to work on that instead of trying to reorient your external
life.

Some suggestions: try exploring mindfulness and meditation, it's pretty easy
to get started with an app like HeadSpace. Also, I would highly recommend the
book The Charisma Myth, it's pretty simple and has some excellent exercises to
deal with a range of impairing feelings/emotions in an effective way.

------
kvothe_
I feel bad that you are experiencing this problem. If "promoters" stopped
putting out ridiculous "call to code" YouTube videos etc. you and many others
will probably not be having this problem.

------
moxylush
I feel you buddy. Programming can be painful if not born to it. Find some
other means of telling your story; blog, animation, graphic novel, public
speaking, or spray paint on the subway walls.

------
rexreed
Have you thought about jobs that involve some sort of manual labor / physical
activity? Maybe you have "physical" intelligence (it's a thing) or perhaps
something more aligned with creative arts? Try doing a bunch of different
things. If you're not strapped for money, see if you can shadow a bunch of
different careers and see which one sparks interest in you. I agree that it
has to do with interest, not aptitude.

------
silveroriole
Hey. Kind of same here. I’m a good programmer but not motivated enough to
really get to grips with the difficult and low-paying fields I’m interested
in. Here’s a lazy solution: cut down your hours. Work 4 days or less. If
programming’s already so boring, then there’s not much downside to picking a
boring well-paid field to offset the salary loss. Use your time to do things
you care about instead.

------
new_guy
Something no-one else has mentioned yet is learning methods. Stuff might not
be sticking because you're using the wrong learning method for you. Instead of
reading a book, maybe watch a video tutorial instead, learn by doing etc, get
a mentor to pair program with?

Also look up 'imposter syndrome', it does sound a lot like you're suffering
from self-esteem issues too so maybe get someone to talk with?

~~~
throwaway88p
Interestingly, I've never been a fan of video tutorials in the past, but have
tried using them in the past weeks. There are some aspects of it I like. It's
easier to keep attention with a video than a large wall of text these days
(though it used to be the opposite). Unfortunately, it's not so easy to skip
around content in a video, for example to avoid useless filler content or to
return to a small chunk of content to review.

------
vectorboost
I felt a bit similar and what I had to do is actually think and even write
down what kind of activities really interests me, give me energy and inspire
me. It was quite an interesting mix of tech, teaching, community service,
working with youth. Now I try to slowly move to that and so far I feel much
better. I wish you good luck!

------
lonelappde
Welcome to adulthood. Work is often unpleasant.

You don't need more school, you need to find a healthier attitude, and maybe
coworkers you get along better with.

------
nogabebop23
I think I see a lot of people in the potential career changes who have a
similar attitude, which unfortunately continues the (probably not untrue)
perception of BAs, sales and management who don't know shit. Please don't add
to this by saying "I don't like development and don;t think I'm very good at
it, so instead I'll become a manager of developers".

------
dennis_jeeves
throwaway88p, I think you actually seem to a very mentally healthy guy,
despite what the nerds over here suggest. The obsession to solve intellectual
problems for the sake of solving problems with no grounding in reality ( or a
made up reality) is what is glorified by these nerds here. While this
obsessive trait (hard wired) does result in some extraordinary benefits for
humanity, it is not mentally rewarding for someone who can see it for what it
is i.e grunt work.

The ability of be bored is I think just an important useful neuro-mental
process, just like the ability to forget. depending of which side you lean it
may be useful or be a liability under different circumstances.

To end on a pessimistic note, one cannot manufacture interest, unless we come
up with a way to skillfully manipulate our neuro hard wiring. I think we a
long way off from achieving that.

~~~
punchclockhero
I remember reading an old post on here by some anon who managed to make
themselves enjoy math using a carefully crafted psychedelic trip. Could be a
fluke on the level of curing OCD with a gunshot, but also an interesting
possibility.

~~~
dennis_jeeves
I can agree here, most psychedelics ( and to a lesser degree foods and other
drugs) will have some mind altering effects. There was someone online a long
time back who claimed that there is very reliable way to forget certain
memories ( useful when trying to forget traumatic events) by using some
combination of substances.

------
dlandis
Do you feel passionate about any particular subject, trade, or issue at all,
regardless of whether or not it's connected to tech?

Reminds me of this famous scene:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wu2HhlTEHMc](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wu2HhlTEHMc)

~~~
throwaway88p
Passionate? not really much anymore. There are a number of things I'll take
fleeting interest in after reading / watching some stuff, ranging from
different technical subjects, to scientific subject, etc. Nothing ever seems
to stick, though.

------
asdfadfaf
Not sure why you've phrased all these things as negatives. Whenever I'm faced
with something similar I don't wonder if I'm the problem but that the existing
material and advice was not meant for people like me and I should look for a
way to help myself and those like me.

------
wickedOne
you say you started doing programming as a hobby which means it used to be
fun, right?

you might want to isolate the aspects of what made it fun back in the days
when it was a hobby and what makes it dreadful at the moment and find yourself
something which include the first, but lacks the later.

personally i think the attractive side of being a developer is creating
something. reading you're not interested in business side of tech (analyst,
salesman, management) you might want to explore other crafts which maintain
the creative part.

that could be anything really. i myself started out as a graphic designer
before i got involved in programming which might be something you want to
explore...

~~~
throwaway88p
Honestly, I've always enjoyed chasing the "rabbit hole" that came with solving
problems. I'm generally poor at putting my thoughts into concrete
descriptions, but I'll attempt. It used to be something like this:

I have some sort of problem, ideally one that intrigues me, because it's not
obvious. I would dive into it, and it would lead down to a rabbit whole of
other issues and subjects I would research and would come out with a solution,
having been engaged the whole time.

Nowadays, problems I encounter are either incredibly shallow, being caused
because of some carelessness by myself or someone else and often solved with a
5 minute search, or the complete opposite, too complex for me to even get
started with, as people much smarter than me.

------
sesm
Try psychotherapy. It is not going to change anything immediately, but maybe
you'll start looking at your problem from a different angle and find out that
the problem is not your dayjob.

------
Wheaties466
I don't think theres such a thing as not smart enough to be a programmers. One
of the dumbest people I knew was also one of the better programmers.

------
steviesong
Can you remember a time when coding sparked joy in your life? What made you
interested in cs? Try to go back to the inspiration.

------
k__
I would not consider myself very smart.

Took me multiple years, probably a decade between my first hello world and my
first job, to become a programmer.

I just didn't give up

------
sbussard
It sounds like you're looking for growth and significance but need direction.
Listen to the Ken Coleman podcast.

------
personaenon
Can totally relate.

25 years as system administrator and I DO NOT want to do DEVops nor SRE.

Not sure where to go myself....

~~~
MandieD
Learn how to do systems admin in the cloud your current employer/industry
favors - as a longtime Microsoft platform admin who picked up PowerShell over
the past decade to do AD/Exchange/Lync (Skype), Azure was easiest to slide
into. Learn how that cloud’s networking works, especially with existing on-
prem stuff, and do so in its command line interface. Learn how to do those
things in Terraform and Ansible.

Be a sysadmin for developers. Help those bright young kids who are network-
blind figure out why their stuff isn’t talking to other stuff. Help them when
they can’t work out how to deal with the corporate web proxy or why their
cloud bills are so high (did they check how many cores their database instance
_really_ needed? Did they pick a good VM size, or should they have gone with
something with a higher RAM/CPU ratio?)

------
cvaidya1986
Read Scott Adams Book on how to be successful , in a nutshell, be the only one
who is in the top twenty percent of 5 to 10 disciplines and you’ll be
absolutely unique and valuable and create something only you can create.

------
21stio
What about quantum physics or something like that?

------
narak
"Everyone is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree,
it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid." \- Einstein, maybe

~~~
smnthermes
Not Einstein: [https://quoteinvestigator.com/2013/04/06/fish-
climb/](https://quoteinvestigator.com/2013/04/06/fish-climb/)

------
kevindeasis
have you tried taking a break and going on vacation and not think about tech
at all?

------
d1str0
Game design? Story telling? UX?

------
michele_f
Drink more water.

------
bettyx1138
UX design?

~~~
dirtnugget
That is, despite all the fuzz, not something you jump into from maintaining
CRUD apps.

