
Microsoft duplicates data from Firefox without asking - doener
https://old.reddit.com/r/Windows10/comments/hct0mj/are_we_going_to_get_treated_to_spam_popups/
======
DoofusOfDeath
Historically I've minimized the use of Windows 10 on my home network, because
of Microsoft's history regarding privacy and spyware.

Lately, however, I've considered letting Windows 10 run in a fairly locked
down VM, so my family can use some apps and games that don't function well in
Wine/Proton. I reckoned that the combination of VM isolation, and limiting
Windows 10's internet access to a handful of whitelisted domains, is a
reasonable compromise. I.e., I had a technical solution to a technical
problem.

But this news story reminds me of another reason to keep Microsoft out of my
network: they piss me off. Regardless of whether or not I'm currently ahead of
them in the arms race. I don't want to reward Microsoft with even one more
installation, and I don't want to be perpetually pissed off about something on
my network. I crave Schadenfreude for everyone who conspired on this.

(Yes, I realize this sounds like the backstory for the least-compelling super-
villain character ever.)

~~~
Jonnax
I'm so curious. Why do you care so much about Microsoft telemetry?

What data do you think they will exfiltrate that's so important that you go
through the effort of setting of VMs and whitelisting?

Do you ban your family from using social media as well due to data collection?

~~~
probably_wrong
I think you are coming to this point from the wrong angle: if the OP thinks
(like I do) that telemetry itself is an invasion of privacy, which data is
sent is irrelevant.

Asking "what data do you think they will exfiltrate?" assumes that the only
reason to oppose telemetry is "they might see something I want to keep
hidden". But, as it's often said when it comes to other people attempting to
cross your personal boundaries, "'No' is a complete answer".

~~~
bergstromm466
> as it's often said when it comes to other people attempting to cross your
> personal boundaries, "'No' is a complete answer".

I love that, so important!

Have people seen the Tea consent video?
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oQbei5JGiT8](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oQbei5JGiT8)

~~~
Dylan16807
Hmm. That's a cute way to talk through the ideas. But if someone asked for
_actual_ tea, then decided they just didn't want it, it would be okay to be a
little pushy. Not hugely pushy, but notably more than with 'tea'.

~~~
bergstromm466
> be a little pushy

Eh? Why would that be ok? I think it's worth asking them why they don't want
it anymore. If they continue to say no, do you really think it is ok to start
pouring it down their throat?

Consent can be revoked at any point in time.

For what it's worth I think most cultures today are crap at consent. I think
many of us are victim to a pre-#MeToo culture where sexual harrasment was
somewhat more socially 'acceptable' or 'accepted' [1][2]. I think of the memes
of women who seem uncomfortable when Biden touches them. Dr. Bessel van der
Kolk talks about his desire for a 'trauma-conscious' society.

To me there is no denying that often we have been hurt, and that there is not
enough support for many people out there. I believe we don't get the support
that we would need to heal from these things. Walking around hurt and unhealed
is unfortunately the norm.

> That's a cute way to talk through the ideas

Rape and sexual assualt are very common, so I think this video is more than
'cute'; it's essential. I hope we start showing this to kids at a younger age,
to help them grow boundaries early on. This also concerns consent for non-
sexual contact such as hugs, or just any other type of physical contact with
another person.

[1] women:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wWoP8VpbpYI](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wWoP8VpbpYI)
[2] men:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uc6QxD2_yQw](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uc6QxD2_yQw)

~~~
Dylan16807
Pouring tea down someone's throat is more than "a little pushy".

I mean that "come on, you got me to make this tea, at _least_ have a sip" is
perfectly fine to say about actual tea. In the analogy, doing that is _not
good_.

(Assume this is a situation where they don't have a specific reason, so asking
why they don't want it is completely nonproductive.)

~~~
bergstromm466
Yeah fair point, I see what you mean

------
orev
For all the people who keep fawning of how Microsoft is now such a wonderful
friend of open source, how this is not the Microsoft of 10 years ago, blah
blah blah, THIS is why the old timers don’t trust them. THIS kind of behavior
is what we expect from Microsoft, and is exactly why we have long memories and
distrust of them, including all their new seemingly open initiatives.

~~~
notriddle
So who would you trust more? Red Hat? Apple? Mozilla? Independent developers?
DuckDuckGo? Your government? Yourself?

All of them will betray your trust, either through maliciousness or
incompetence. All major Linux distributions ship Firefox as the preferred
default browser, which would be considered spyware if it were held to the same
standards that Microsoft is held to. And even if they didn't, odds are you'll
screw something up and get hacked (nobody, not even DJB, is perfect).

If you really want privacy, don't use a computer.

~~~
mhh__
Why is Firefox spyware?

~~~
notriddle
[https://spyware.neocities.org/articles/firefox.html](https://spyware.neocities.org/articles/firefox.html)

~~~
franga2000
Sorry, but I couldn't help but laugh the whole time reading this. The vast
majority of these things are bullshit.

\- portal detection is a plain GET request - no actual data is sent \- Google
Analytics is used on Mozilla Web pages, not Firefox itself \- default search
engines are meaningless, as you can pick which one to use and not even
suggestions are requested without opt-in \- FHR I believe is still opt-in and
also contains no PII \- Pocket does absolutely nothing unless you manually
register and log in \- Auto updates are only on Mac and Windows, but if you're
using either of those, you really can't complain here

That site is a good resource, but it is extremely exaggerating the situation -
and that's not ok. Once you label Firefox as "spyware level HIGH", what do you
call something like Windows 10? Firefox has a few opt-out points of telemetry
that share no PII and aren't correlatable by design, whereas Windows 10 has no
opt-out and automatically sends everything from local search queries to full
binaries back to the mothership.

Saying everything is bad isn't helping anyone. We need to work on getting
people off the things that actually violate their privacy (Windows, most
Google products, FB, Web trackers...) and only then start working on improving
the lesser offenders.

------
Santosh83
Companies seem to follow a standard rulebook for these things. Do something
flagrantly invasive and outrageous, wait for the inevitable backlash and then
back down on a few of the minor points which is also great opportunity for PR
to say how much they care about your privacy, and when the dust settles,
they've gained a little more ground against user control of their device.

~~~
switch007
It's the exact same rulebook of politicians. It's so obvious I don't know how
they get away with it, but they have done for a very, very long time!

~~~
inetknght
Politicians cloak it in the idea of "compromise". Ask for more than what you
want and then negotiate to some middle ground.

Playing that game isn't a good faith negotiation.

~~~
squarefoot
"Ask for more than what you want and then negotiate to some middle ground."

Very common practice in politics which serves both sides (assuming the most
common 2 main parties context) as both of them can tell voters they
accomplished part of their goal after hard fighting.

------
jimbob45
>It unsets your default browser, so next time you click a URL from a shortcut,
you'll have to re-choose your default browser.

Isn’t this exactly the kind of thing that would bring their hallmark antitrust
case back to life?

~~~
Kipters
No, because technically it doesn't unset your default browser.

It's default behavior in Windows 10 to ask the user to confirm the default
handler for certain URI schemes after a new application capable of handling
them is installed. The same would happen after installing any other browser.

I can't verify now, but IIRC if you dismiss the dialog the default handler
doesn't change, basically it gives you an opportunity to change your default
without delving into Settings. Android does something similar.

~~~
Kipters
Another thing: Windows 10 at some point removed the API for changing default
URI and file handlers, so they would need to use private APIs for something
like that (to be fair, APIs for automatically pinning icons to the Taskbar
never existed in the first place, but all Chromium-based browsers do it
anyway)

~~~
smileybarry
Setting file handlers are still allowed IIRC but yes, the default browser API
doesn't work anymore and pops up a "select a default browser" widget.

IIRC no browser currently force-selects a default browser via private API,
except for new Edge _if you had old Edge as default_ (since old Edge is
uninstalled at the same time).

~~~
cptskippy
Yeah it seems like Microsoft is playing both sides. On the one hand they want
New Edge to just be a new version of Edge if they already use Old Edge, and on
the other they want New Edge to be treated as a new browser if you aren't
using Old Edge.

~~~
cbo100
That's no different to how Firefox or Chrome would do it if I had an old
version of either installed.

I.e. If Firefox switched to Chromium I would expect the exact same behaviour
"New Firefox" and "Old Firefox" is not a distinction.

~~~
Dylan16807
You're missing the point, though.

You can make a consistent explanation for _either_ side, as you have just
done.

If it's the same browser, then transferring the default status is correct.

If it's a new browser, then asking what should be default is correct.

Chredge is doing _both_ , depending on which one advantages them more.

~~~
im3w1l-alt
Consider this from the perspective of the user's intention. This is the exact
behavior I would want if I installed Edge.

Saying this as someone who mainly uses firefox and occasionally brave.

~~~
franga2000
But users didn't install Edge. It installed itself. Yes, writing a special
case for just this one situation sounds annoying, but they have a
responsibility to their users. If the user didn't install something new, they
shouldn't get the popup. That was the deal and MS broke it.

~~~
jodrellblank
Getting updates from Windows Update with everything they include, was also
part of the deal.

As you say, they have responsibility to their users;

If the URL handler was old Edge, and they didn't change it while removing old
Edge, the user would have broken internet access and not understand why.
That's no good.

If the URL handler was updated to quietly move to new Edge, they just swapped
out a major piece of software for one which looks and behaves differently,
with a different icon, without any introduction or warning or confirmation,
which is an awful experience for users. Microsoft get accused of special-
casing themselves and their browser, and it breaks the work Microsoft has done
for years to stop programs changing file/protocol handlers without confirming
it with the user. [see Raymond Chen writing about it here
[https://devblogs.microsoft.com/oldnewthing/20181016-00/?p=99...](https://devblogs.microsoft.com/oldnewthing/20181016-00/?p=99985)
]

If they decide a browser is not part of Windows and you have to install new
Edge from the app store yourself, tens of millions of computers are now stuck
on the last version of old Edge basically forever - because there's no Windows
11 on the way to replace it - and it becomes the new IE6 millstone for web
developers. If they also remove old Edge at the same time, millions of people
lost their browser and don't know why - and the only default one remaining is
IE 11.

There is a new thing, the hypothetical user who had settled into Edge does
need to know, however it got installed.

------
pseudosavant
Am I the only one who actually clicked through the link and is confused? It
looks like a rant thread, with no specific information or links to blog posts,
against Windows 10. I was expecting to get a link to a blog post, tweet, etc
that showed specifically what MS is doing, with I don't know, some proof or
facts? It doesn't seem like any of the HN commenters have clicked through; I
know shocking...

All it is is some text that says:

Are we going to get treated to spam popups advertising Edge and having it
duplicate our data from Firefox without asking every time Microsoft decides to
update it from now on?

Love rebooting my computer to get treated to a forced tour of a browser I'm
not going to use that I have to force close through the task manager to
escape, and then finding out it's been copying over my data from Firefox
without permission.

~~~
ShamelessC
Same here. Surprised so many people have commented on this without questioning
the veracity of the claim. Specifically, the claim that it is importing your
firefox data without you giving it permission.

It's not that I have trouble believing this. It's definitely something they
might do. But when did some random redditor become a reliable source?

Christ, people.

~~~
0-_-0
For what it's worth, I just updated my Windows 10 install and all that changed
was a new Edge icon appearing on the desktop, that's it. When I clicked it I
had the option to load settings from Firefox which I declined. It didn't set
itself as the default browser (maybe there was a prompt about it but I don't
remember), but it did get pinned to the taskbar, which I now removed.

------
rkagerer
As if I needed more reasons to avoid Windows 10. The level of user hostility
emergent from this OS is absurd.

The shame is I want to love it. The engineers made some great improvements
under the hood. But the product decisions are a disaster. It's like an out of
control dog with an owner that just doesn't care, who shits in the middle of
your meticulously maintained PC and pisses your privacy all over the
neighborhood.

~~~
stinos
_The engineers made some great improvements under the hood. But the product
decisions are a disaster._

This would be a good reply anytime someone goes the generalist 'Microsoft does
this and that and that and that and it's all bad' way. I've always found it
somewhat strange how many people don't seem to realize there's x different
divisions within Microsoft, and that's it's somewhat unfair to call all of it
crap just because some lame in-your-face management-crap. Not that the latter
is acceptable, but as you say: other divisions have been doing some neat
things for the past decades..

~~~
hyperman1
Honestly, why should a customer care? If half of microsoft is sane and the
other half retarded, the result will be retarded. The customer should be able
to say microsoft as an entity is retarded. They have plenty of management to
figure the details out themselves

------
dx87
Interesting info from that thread. Apparently if you follow through the entire
setup, it asks what you'd like to import, but if you go through the task
manager and force close it, then it automatically imports everything without
your consent.

------
avery42
Unfortunately people's solution to this will be "edit this registry value" or
"use this tool that disables it", just like with telemetry, instead of
dropping this user-hostile data collection system off the face of the planet.

But it's OK - Microsoft <3 open-source :)

~~~
techntoke
So much that they use their proprietary OS to collect information about users
in order to exploit them.

------
walrus01
Quoting the top comment there, this is egregiously blunt:

"I was immediately annoyed at how invasive this. I'm a software developer so
I'm sensitive to these sort of UI tricks. What MS has done this time:

Hit the user with a maximized Edge, with a modal roadblock window that only
has one button that says "Get Started"

No option to get rid of the window, you cannot close Edge with the mouse and
you cannot escape the modal window.

The only option if you don't want to "Get started" is to use task manager to
kill it

Even when you do, it pins itself to your task bar

It puts an Edge icon on your desktop

It unsets your default browser, so next time you click a URL from a shortcut,
you'll have to re-choose your default browser.

Apparently it ingests data from other browsers without your permission

Your parents and grand parents are probably using Edge now. They didn't mean
to, they just couldn't seem to get it out of the way unless they agreed to
"Get Started"."

~~~
mkl
I don't see anything egregious about the bluntness. It seems entirely
appropriate.

------
mirimir
I just went through this with a Win10 box, and had no problems with declining
migration from Firefox to Edge.

And when I open Edge, I see no personalization.

~~~
tilolebo
Same for me. I fired up Edge, it asked about migrating from Firefox, I
declined and that was it...

------
FBISurveillance
I'm not saying it's OK, but if you open Safari for the first time after using
Chrome, it will import Bookmarks and History without asking for permission.

------
rasz
Guess $700 million (1) is simply too cheap a price for directly marketing your
product to 1 billion (2) users

1 [https://www.zdnet.com/article/microsoft-fined-731m-by-eu-
in-...](https://www.zdnet.com/article/microsoft-fined-731m-by-eu-in-browser-
choice-screw-up/)

2 [https://venturebeat.com/2020/03/16/windows-10-now-runs-
on-1-...](https://venturebeat.com/2020/03/16/windows-10-now-runs-on-1-billion-
devices/)

------
jedieaston
As usual, there is a way to disable this if you can apply GPO or registry
tweaks.

GPO: After installing[0] the Edge Group Policies (because of course they
aren't included with the installer!), set the "Automatically import another
browser's data and settings at first run" policy to "4: Disables automatic
import, and the import section of the first-run experience is skipped". This
works on any version of Windows 7 or later. Note that if you already enabled
the "Hide first-run" policy, Edge will take it upon itself to import from the
user's default browser anyway without asking, so you'll still have to set the
other policy as well.

Registry: Go to Computer\HKEY_CURRENT_USER\SOFTWARE\Policies\Microsoft\Edge,
create a new DWORD called "AutoImportAtFirstRun", and set it to 4. Auto import
will not happen when Edge (Chromium) is launched for the first time, and you
won't be asked about it during setup.[1] If you want to disable the first-run
wizard entirely, create another DWORD called "HideFirstRunExperience", and set
it to 1.

If you've already opened Edge (as described in the article), these policies
being applied will not clear your browser of already imported data. You'll
have to delete your Edge profile (edge://settings, -> profiles, delete) to get
rid of it. If you haven't installed Edge, note that new Edge becomes mandatory
in version 20H2, so you'll want to set the policy now before you get overtaken
after a system update.

Guess this is another thing to add to the "new-install checklist"...

0: [https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/deployedge/configure-
micros...](https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/deployedge/configure-microsoft-
edge) 1: [https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/deployedge/microsoft-
edge-p...](https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/deployedge/microsoft-edge-
policies#autoimportatfirstrun)

------
k0stas
The title should be updated to "Microsoft Edge copies user data from Firefox
without asking".

The current title is ambiguous: "Windows duplicates data from Firefox without
asking". The fact that this is user data is an important distinction. Also,
the word duplicates has a sense of having a purpose of redundancy, which is
not the case here.

~~~
pierrebai
The correct title should actually be "Edge imports Firefox data if you say yes
when it asks you". Because that is what is happening. The article on Reddit is
just wrong.

------
speeder
This is another reason I avoid Win10 on my personal machine like the plague.

People just don't get it.

For example Cyberpunk 2077 has no official mininum requeriments listed for PC
yet, and I noticed in their official forums a couple people are asking if it
will support Win7, a lot of people replied to these questions along the lines:
"Of course not you loser, Win7 support from MS ended, noone is going to be
retarded and support a game that uses Win7" and this just makes me sad.

I really hope Linux will "take off" before I am actually forced to ditch Win7.

~~~
Zhyl
If you can put as much weight on Linux as possible, that will help it happen.

We've made massive strides in the last 2 years, but we need everyone who is
Win7 Main to at least run Linux for some games to get used to the differences
and to get the numbers up. This will help bolster the efforts of all those who
are switching from 'some usage -> dual booting', 'dual booting -> Linux main'
and 'Linux main -> leading edge'.

If all take one step forwards then overall the scales start to tip!

~~~
speeder
At home currently I run my machine by default on Win7 and my wife machine by
default on Ubuntu (I prefer Fedora but... it is her machine, not mine).

Often we play games with each other and whatnot.

But it is still obvious Linux is behind in some senses.

1\. Some interfaces are just awful, Ubuntu default one took me ages to figure
how to type addresses on the file explorer thingy it has (seemly you have to
type Control+G or something).

2\. If you use nVidia, you are screwed, nVidia drivers just suck.

3\. Often even native linux games do weird unexpected things, like refusing to
close, and the kill interface on Linux is generally awfull, it is hard to
track why the hell the game just doesn't close, my wife reboots her computer
much more often than me because of something going wrong with a game and make
the system go into a weird state of some kind.

4\. Installing wine and whatnot is a pain, for example when I tried to install
Magic Arena I ended somehow, with many, many copies of wine on the system, and
NONE worked. There are multiple game launchers and wine wrappers too, all of
them trying to fix this issue, and none of them succeed completely.

~~~
mixedCase
>1\. Some interfaces are just awful, Ubuntu default one took me ages to figure
how to type addresses on the file explorer thingy it has (seemly you have to
type Control+G or something).

That's GNOME. Which regular Ubuntu ships by default. If you like Win 7, use
Plasma (formerly known as KDE).

>2\. If you use nVidia, you are screwed, nVidia drivers just suck.

That's just Ubuntu again. On Arch or Manjaro you just install the "nvidia"
package, reboot and you're done.

>3\. Often even native linux games do weird unexpected things, like refusing
to close

You should have a task manager to list your processes and kill them. But it's
true that the failure handling mode for some games that do weird shit isn't as
nice as on Windows. I recommend htop, because when the graphical system hangs,
you can switch to another tty (Ctrl+Alt+an F key like F2) and use htop.

>4\. Installing wine and whatnot is a pain

Don't. Use Lutris which handles installations of many games automatically for
you, or if it doesn't have an install script (MtG: Arena does:
[https://lutris.net/games/magic-the-gathering-
arena/](https://lutris.net/games/magic-the-gathering-arena/)), helps you
anyway in managing Wine for you.

~~~
Zhyl
In response to his specific points - this.

In response to his response as a response to _my_ response, I'd add that if he
wants to see progress on these issues, Linux isn't ever going to burst into
the room, take him by the hand and whisk him away. At some point he's going to
need to take the leap and start using Linux in anger in order to escape W7 or
W10.

His wife running Ubuntu is encouraging though. I'm much happier if someone has
at least tried Linux rather than just assuming it's terrible.

But as I say, everyone needs to take a step forward of we want to move the
front line.

------
hyperman1
At this point, every ms customer should stop complaining. MS knows what you
think about it, and ignores you. Look at your options rationally:

You can chose to live with it and bitch. Sorry, dont expect anyone to care,
you preferred it over the alternatives.

You can mess with the registry/ group policy/ whatever. It will take you a few
hours, and in a few weeks you'll have to do it again. You'll never be in the
lead. If that's your choice, so be it, but be honest: you wanted this more
than any alternative.

You can go to linux. Things will be better, but not perfect, and there will be
an uncomfortable learning curve of a few weeks. Bonus points if you reclaim
the money for the license. More bonus points if you give some money to the
linux ecosystem.

You can go to OSX, and deal with the walled garden. Life will be good, as long
as you can live with whatever apple thinks is best.

You can contact local politicians, consumer groups, etc...

You can sue microsoft. Really. Especially in the EU, if you thoroughly do your
homework, you have a reasonable chance of winning. Somebody complained about
seeing the license only after having paid for windows, sued and won. After
that ms printed the url to the license on all their EU windows boxes.

You can contact ms support and complain. They will notice if their decisions
make their support costs raise.

Each non ms option causes some short term discomfort, but each small drop
eventually wears down a mountain. Make your choice and live with it.

~~~
agent3bood
> You can go to linux. Things will be better, but not perfect A lot of people
> say Linux is not perfect or it is not as good as windows or mac. I have used
> all three operating systems and all of them are not perfect, Linux may be
> the best among them for a software engineer.

~~~
whateveracct
With Linux, at least it's easy to fix things myself. Doubly so for NixOS which
is especially hackable. The UX is atrocious and you don't get the network
effects of the mainstream though.

~~~
YetAnotherNick
It's because you are programmer and worked with command line. I had seen many
technical minded people completely mess up their linux installation.

~~~
whateveracct
That's why I like NixOS! If I ruin everything, I can just reboot & pick the
last known working config since it's all immutable.

------
grawprog
Wow, it's almost as though Microsoft has been spending the last couple years
trying to gain what they thought was enough good pr to allow them to just
brazenly start openly pulling all their old bullshit again and expect it to be
ok because, they gave people a powershell, the linux subsystem, 'open sourced'
some of their software and bought github...who woulda ever guessed.

------
unnouinceput
I don't get it. What happened and when? I am running Win10 on all my computers
in my house and none of these happened to me. On the other hand I don't run an
online but local account and I've disabled Win10 all crap by using WPD.

------
1656450391
What a depressing time to be alive. The end of privacy, police brutality,
dysfunctional dystopian governments, fascism on the rise, and tech companies
brainwashing everyone so they can get away with dehumanizing everyone in the
name of profits.

Also massive inequality, rising productivity, declining real wages, increased
debt, global warming, and a complete lack of opportunity for most people.

~~~
salmon30salmon
Don't be so glum. We can travel across the world in a day. We have medical
treatments for diseases that would have killed millions a year 75 years ago.
We can communicate openly and freely with people all over the world. We can go
to motherfucking space! The world is more at peace right now than any other
time in recorded history. The power of religion to control people has slowly
degraded away.

What a time to be alive!

~~~
na85
>We can travel across the world in a day.

Damaging the fragile environment in so doing.

>We have medical treatments for diseases that would have killed millions a
year 75 years ago.

Thus exacerbating global overpopulation and all the problems this causes

>We can communicate openly and freely with people all over the world.

Not for much longer. There's a push everywhere to centralize communications
into silos owned by tech giants with zero accountability. How many times have
I seen on HN that "email is deprecated" and the way of the future is to just
buy into $proprietary_messenger that the user happens to work for?

>We can go to motherfucking space!

If you're a CEO, sure. The privileged overclass enjoys many perks as a
consequence of its dominance.

>The world is more at peace right now than any other time in recorded history.
The power of religion to control people has slowly degraded away.

Replaced by massive media and tech corporations controlling public discourse
via social media, the new opiate of the masses, and fomenting identity
politics to stave off the realization of class consciousness.

We live in a corporate dystopia.

~~~
zip1234
Anybody with a $200 Chromebook can now write things that are read more than
ever before. People have a voice that was unthinkable even 50 years ago.

CEOs can't go to space quite yet. However, it appears that space is about to
get far more accessible. Not only that, cheap space launches are enabling
things like Starlink, which may provide worldwide internet and get around
national firewalls and make the world that much more transparent.

The average person has many incredibly cheap amenities available that were
unthinkable not that long ago. What does a CEO have that is that much better?
A bigger boat than other people? They get to fly in an airplane that has less
people in it? A more expensive car? A slightly bigger TV? There are rapidly
diminishing returns for being rich.

~~~
jodrellblank
A (large company) CEO has the wealth to give them the freedom to not be an
employee. The wealth to pay others to do anything they don't want to do. The
top of the pyramid status and respect, and power that comes with it. Ordinary
laws and things like parking fines become trivia they can dispense with. Other
laws become things they can bend by buying a sufficient quantity of lawyers.

Time becomes less of a sticking point as they can buy a waiting limo and
direct connecting flight, other people become less of a concern as they can
rent any Penthouse suite with bodyguards in any location.

Influence over others becomes a matter of spending - donations, philanthropy,
employment, high status connections.

The returns on being a (sufficiently) wealthy (American) person are much more
than just the material stuff they can buy and own.

~~~
BuckRogers
You missed the biggest one of all, he doesn’t have to work at all anymore.
Giving him all his time back, which is priceless.

But, they also become what they likely spent their life hating: a non-worker.
Worse yet, they get the added distinction of becoming a leech on the human
network, gaining further wealth through usury. The welfare recipient at least
puts all the money they’re handed back into the economy. The capitalists can
never claim that, and mostly horde.

The OP is correct in that materially, the capitalist and the worker are
largely equals. We all use the same phones, TVs and computers now. When I was
a kid in the 80s a car phone was something only in movies, I never actually
saw one.

~~~
jodrellblank
I didn't miss it, it was the first thing I said.

> Giving him all his time back, which is priceless.

It's valued at "a livable wage", which isn't always but ought to be, "minimum
wage". That's how much money you need to have every month to not need to work
and still be considered living.

> " _The OP is correct in that materially, the capitalist and the worker are
> largely equals. We all use the same phones, TVs and computers now._ "

Which is why I was trying to point out that's a sham measure, it's like saying
"King Richard is your equal because you both speak English!". That might be
true, but it's certainly not true that we are equals, it's a distraction from
all the things which aren't equal. If nothing else, it shows that using a
smartphone, TV or computer has lost its significance now we all have it,
rather than we all gained signficance by having it.

~~~
BuckRogers
I didn't intend to come off so oppositional. I agreed with what you were
saying, just was trying to add more in agreement.

> _A (large company) CEO has the wealth to give them the freedom to not be an
> employee._

Yes but I didn't read that as "giving him his time back", I read that as
"could be a manager, start a new company" etc.

I thought your post was excellent, apologies for misunderstandings. Cheers!

------
dazhbog
Why are we so powerless? So annoying that we cannot sue them out of
existence.. ;(

~~~
spicymaki
It would not surprise me that if by clicking on the EULA, you sign away the
right to sue them.

~~~
squarefoot
AFAICT That kind of agreement should be void for being one sided; not sure if
it has ever been tested in court however.

~~~
nitrogen
IIRC binding arbitration has been upheld by courts in the US.

~~~
colejohnson66
The supposed reasoning being: it’s in the contract that you willingly agreed
to. You could’ve not paid for and installed Windows, but you did, then agreed
to the EULA. So you’re out of luck.

It’s a perversion if what a contract is supposed to be: negotiable, but it’s
what it is right now.

------
anonymousiam
Maybe this is a little off-topic, but has anyone else noticed that the
Microsoft Teams browser interface works a lot better with Chrome than it does
with Edge? Aside from the curious behavior where Teams meetings open in a
browser, then either the native Teams app or another browser depending on
which "Teams" ecosystem your meeting originated, if you open the Teams browser
interface in Edge, you cannot share your desktop or present files. If you open
in Chrome, you can do these things. Go figure...

------
l0b0
Is there an idiot-proof way to set up a Windows 10 VM with _good_ performance
these days?

I play computer games. Because maybe 30% or so of the games I play work badly
or terribly in Linux (anything from screen tear to crashing on startup) I have
a licensed copy of Windows 10. I tried setting up a KVM / QEMU-based VM with
GPU passthrough, but apparently Windows detected it because it locked up
(somehow, I don't remember the details) after I entered the license key, and I
ended up having to dual-boot.

~~~
RealStickman_
Do you by any chance have an Nvidia gpu? Nvidia doesn't like people passing
through their consumer grade gpus to VMs and blocks those. You can however
enable a "hiding" mode so it works regardless.

Maybe have a look at the Archwiki about OVMF Passthrough That's how I got it
to work.

~~~
l0b0
Yes, it's cursed Nvidia. Thanks for the tip, I'll try that out! Edit: Yeah,
not exactly idiot-proof. Without a simple list of commands it'll probably take
a couple hours just to establish beyond a doubt that my hardware even fits the
prerequisites.

------
maest
I found it particularly jarring the this pushy behaviour is present on
Windows10 Pro as well, which is supposed to be a "for business" edition of
Windows.

~~~
albertsondev
Pro is still primarily targeted towards individual users, albeit as a
"productivity-focused" version. Businesses are mostly targeted by Enterprise,
and they (along with educators) are the only customers for whom MS generally
avoids mucking with established configs.

------
k__
My Windows 10 even tried to sell me the new Edge as Chrome.

Somehow it displayed the Chrome logo when it started automatically and it had
all my Firefox bookmarks.

Right after an update.

Was really scary.

------
MrDresden
As someone who only runs a win10 instance for gaming, while using Linux for
all other aspects of my computing, I am honestly now thinking about giving PC
gaming up just so I can stop having to deal with M$ and their practices.

And before it is mentioned; I do realize I can play on Linux, but frankly I
dont feel like sysadmining every time I want some escapism.

~~~
fartcannon
Steam handles all that now. You literally dont have to do anything special for
an ever increasing number of new games. The method of installation is the same
as on windows: Click install and wait.

~~~
MrDresden
It has admittedly been some time since I last gave it a go. In my memory I had
wasted hours tweaking graphical drivers and game configs to get a game
working, before finally giving up.

~~~
fartcannon
yes, neither of those things have been issues in ages.

~~~
MrDresden
So I just had some free time today to look into the state of Steam gaming on
Linux. And my mind is blown! Between Proton and Vulcan it couldn't be easier
and more stable.

I might just toss my Windows partition overboard in due time.

------
29athrowaway
Microsoft was, is and will always be a company doing shady shit to catch up
with their competitors.

[https://googleblog.blogspot.com/2011/02/microsofts-bing-
uses...](https://googleblog.blogspot.com/2011/02/microsofts-bing-uses-google-
search.html)

------
zzo38computer
Reading that, it does seem like it is bad, but at least Microsoft has
documented a registry setting to disable this feature. Still, that doesn't
excuse most of the bad stuff they have done with this, and otherwise with
Windows 10, even if they have made a few good improvements too.

------
dependenttypes
Is this not what chrom(ium?) has been doing since the very start (at least on
windows)?

~~~
mox1
this happened to me last night. I never asked to install Edge, it was part of
some automatic windows update.

Immediately after reboot, Edge goes fullscreen and pops up a unclosable modal
window.

It also puts an icon on the desktop and pinned itself to the start menu.

Attempting to remove Edge via powershell results in errors and warnings about
it being a required system component.

So...a bit more than chrome.

~~~
de_watcher
Can we start requiring legally tracing of the origin of these decisions?
Someone has decided that. Why can't we have a name?

~~~
rasz
Origin was somewhere around this 1989 email:

"You never sent me a response on the question of what things an app
[application] would do that would make it run with MSDOS and not run with DR-
DOS," ... "Is there [sic] feature they have that might get in our way?"

and 1992 one:

"What the [user] is supposed to do is feel uncomfortable, and when he has
bugs, suspect that the problem is DR-DOS and then go out to buy MS-DOS,"

------
shultays
I dont remember it resetting default browser back to edge. I remember the
update, edge popup, it putting edge shortcut to taskbar but firefox was still
my default browser.

------
numlock86
Is there actually any data being sent or shared from your device remotely or
is it just copying/taking local data from one application to another
application?

------
fomine3
IIRC Chromium-based Edge imports not only bookmarks but also Cookies from
Google Chrome that's surprising (and convenient) for me. Anyone know details?

------
saltedonion
So Microsoft no longer has a strong foothold in the browser market and shit
like this is no longer considered anti-competitive?

------
bsznjyewgd
The title is misleading.

The Edge popup asks you if you want to import data from other browsers and set
the default browser (like what happens when any browser is installed). If you
just press cancel a bunch of times nothing gets imported or defaults changed
and only some icons get added. That dude just killed it in the task manager so
it used the popup's default settings.

Complain about getting the chromified Edge popup as part of a regular update,
not about it copying data.

~~~
Dylan16807
If you do nothing, it copies your data. That is unacceptable, and the title is
not misleading.

~~~
bsznjyewgd
No, that guy didn't "do nothing". He killed it in task explorer instead of
just pressing no.

~~~
Dylan16807
You shouldn't have to do that. And it disables the normal close button.

What if you reboot without engaging with this weird unclosable window? What if
you lose power? That's not agreement to the terms!

When you have a dialog to choose between yes and no, it is not acceptable to
copy data without 'yes' being clicked. Justification about "they didn't 'just
press no'" is not okay.

He did nothing in terms of giving the program any kind of input.

------
_bxg1
Your user files for one program are never "private" from any other program
running on your computer. This is the security model of the desktop OS. It's
not specific to Windows. It may be presumptuous - offensive, even - for
Microsoft to do this from a UX standpoint, but there's nothing new here. There
was no breach of protocol, Microsoft wasn't abusing its privileged position.
Any program on your PC could do this at any time. We shouldn't act surprised.

------
typingmonkey
When Bing was released they did a similar thing with copying search results
from the users browser to their servers.

~~~
dane-pgp
The people downvoting you perhaps didn't know about this:

[https://www.wired.com/2011/02/bing-copies-
google/](https://www.wired.com/2011/02/bing-copies-google/)

------
orra
This sounds dodgy as hell. Surely incompatible with GDPR: processing personal
information despite an explicit rejection by the user.

------
factchecker01
People are nuts, they are making another browser accessible if Firefox/Chrome
stop working.

------
simonblack
Microsoft is that proverbial leopard.

It never changes its spots.

------
slezyr
Good old Microsoft in the brand new PR wrap.

------
LockAndLol
I mean, honestly... you're using Windows. This kind of behavior shouldn't even
come as a surprise, but should be expected. The longer you stay on it, the
longer you're tacitly supporting those kind of decisions.

If I went to a restaurant and they kept bringing me something I didn't order,
I wouldn't go there anymore.

~~~
ragnese
Don't know why you're being down voted. There is absolutely nothing that
Windows 10 can do to its users' privacy or nonconsent that will surprise me.

