Ask HN: How do you keep a good posture when you spend most of your type sitting? - kevindeasis
======
tboyd47
I'm an ergonomics geek. I had bad sitting posture for years, then struggled
with severe shoulder and back pain for years after that. It got so bad that I
could not sit and type for more than 15 minutes without collapsing at my desk.
It became a career threatening emergency for me. I sought the support of
specialists, doctors, orthopedists, physical therapists, physical trainers,
etc. I did posture exercises, stretches, dry needling, replaced most of my
office equipment, and so on. Now I can (finally!) work at a computer
comfortably for 8 hours a day.

The #1 thing that helped me was sitting forward, on the edge of the chair,
with legs tucked in, and removing the arm rests so my arms hang down
naturally. A lot of people say it's unnatural, therefore, unhealthy, for
humans to _sit_ for 8 hours a day, but that's not entirely true. Humans have
been riding horses and camels since practically the dawn of history, sometimes
for >8 hours a day, weeks at a time, however these animals do not have arm
rests or back rests.

The #2 thing was getting ergonomic equipment. Most office equipment is not
designed for ergonomics, but economics. For a keyboard, I highly recommend the
Kinesis Advantage2. The scooped design conforms naturally to the curves of the
human hand. Though you have to relearn typing to an extent, it's totally worth
it. You will also need an adjustable height external monitor. If you don't
want to pay, don't be shy to ask your employer. It's an investment that pays
off big in your efficiency.

The #3 thing was doing wall slides.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yOtlRQxwt3g](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yOtlRQxwt3g)
This doesn't help with the pain, but it is the only exercise I've ever tried
that corrects kyphotic posture. Immediately after I started doing them,
friends and family were asking me if I've gotten taller. It activates muscles
in the upper back that I didn't even know existed.

~~~
lemonberry
Congrats on getting yourself better. Information helps, but you've got to
apply it and not everyone does.

Regarding #1: Interesting observation about the horse and camel riding.
However, I think there's more hip extension involved in both of those
activities. I imagine there's also more muscle engagement in both too. Still
an interesting point though. Makes me wonder if there's middle ground,
regarding hip extension, while sitting. People typically talk about sitting vs
standing at desks. I wonder if there's a place for chairs that sit higher off
the ground to allow for more hip extension and sitting on the edge.

All speculation on my part.

~~~
ndh2
We'll probably see an evolution from sitting desk to standing desk to walking
desk to mechanical bull desk.

~~~
tboyd47
Hah! Please no.

------
episteme
Obviously I am just one data point, but I spent many years with back pain and
seeing Physios who would tell me to sit with better posture. They would give
me endless stretches and exercises which I would spend time every day doing
and suggest I stand for half the time if possible.

No matter what I tried, sitting with good posture was never comfortable. It
wasn't until I visited a physio who told me not to worry about it, that I
could sit however was comfortable and it wouldn't hurt my back, people are
built differently, that the pain started going away.

I challenge you to find someone who sits with good posture who -doesn't- have
back pain. So my question is, why do you want to sit in a particular way? What
does good mean to you?

~~~
thrav
I’m all about the lean back. My chair is always positioned as low and as far
back as it goes. Takes pressure off your spine. Distributes weight over the
entire back rest, instead of just lightly touching it.

[http://www.nbcnews.com/id/15939377/ns/health-
health_care/t/e...](http://www.nbcnews.com/id/15939377/ns/health-
health_care/t/ease-back-pain-dont-sit-straight/)

------
rb808
Alexander Technique saved me, its a course where trainer makes you aware of
your posture, especially about how you hold your head. Check if there is an
instructor in your area

more generally: Have monitors high so you are looking straight ahead. Feet
flat on the floor a good chair that adjusts to your body.

ie there is no way you can work on a laptop in a cafe 6+ hrs a day without
getting chronic back problems.

~~~
pimlottc
> ie there is no way you can work on a laptop in a cafe 6+ hrs a day without
> getting chronic back problems.

This is the dirty little secret of the hip modern agile coworking 24/7
hackathon startup/freelancer/diy tech lifestyle. Our sleek streamlined unibody
laptops are amazing tools but they are horrible for our bodies.

------
jimmaswell
Not strictly answering the question, but something I've been thinking about in
this area recently.

In regards to ergonomics, it's right under our noses but it seems to be
overlooked - cars' seats seem to have perfect ergonomics. I can sit in mine
for 2 hours straight and have no desire to adjust anything at all, and getting
out feel the same as before I got in, besides the unavoidable slight stiffness
that'll come with any prolonged stillness like that. Compare to any other
sitting arrangement, where I'll inevitably either want to adjust it over time,
move in it a bit, or realize I've been sitting wrongly in it causing a minor
back pain or the like. Maybe office desk/chair ergonomics need to take a cue
from car interiors.

~~~
calt
I'll strongly disagree with this one. After a day of driving I regret it.

I don't own a car so o rent a variety of different ones. The headrest always
forces my neck forward. The bucket shape of the seats closes my chest and
causes shoulder issues.

------
cimmanom
1) This is absolutely crucial: Especially if you use a laptop, get an external
keyboard and a very high riser for the screen (most risers on the market
aren't nearly high enough).

If you're both typing into your laptop keyboard and trying to view its screen,
you'll have no choice but to slouch or hunch.

To get the screen to the right height relative to the keyboard (for upright
posture and elbows at a right angle at your side), even a short person should
lift their laptop by over 18 inches (roughly the distance from waist to
shoulder).

2) Get a vision exam annually and corrective lenses if appropriate so you
never have to lean in to your screen.

~~~
copperx
It has been my hope for the last few decades that a laptop manufacturer
notices this and offers a laptop with a screen that can be raised without
being detached from the keyboard. Having a screen in so close proximity to a
keyboard makes zero ergonomic sense.

------
burkemw3
I got glasses there were focused at approximately the distance my monitor is
from my face (~1 arm length), in addition to many of the other things
mentioned (chair/desk adjustment, walks, etc)

I'm near sighted and the monitor starts getting blurry at just the right
distance. I have glasses for nearsightedness that are focused very far out
(the common case). Wearing them for constant work at arms length really tired
my eyes out. So, I'd frequently work without my glasses, but hunch forward a
little to make seeing things easier.

With glasses dedicated for computer work, I can read everything I need to, my
body can stay in the position it should be, and my eyes don't get nearly as
tired.

As a side benefit, the glasses help me focus in other areas of my life. I
frequently wear them while cooking, and it helps me do one thing at time, as
other stuff is blurry.

------
peeters
I had a heck of a time at my previous workplace being comfortable; tried
different sitting positions, standing part of the day, etc.

Then I came to my current workplace which had Aeron chairs. I don't even think
about how I'm sitting now, I just sit how I'm comfortable. I sit reclined, my
arms only a few inches below my shoulders, resting on my desk. My eyes are
level with about 3" from the bottom of my monitors. I'm probably breaking
every ergonomics rule.

I have to have my phone remind me to get up, if it was just about comfort or
back pain I could sit all day.

Who knows if there will be long term effects from this, but my body is telling
me no. Invest in a good chair.

------
taohansen
I’ve made this comment before but I’ll do it again because I honestly feel
like the way Westerners approach this problem is deeply wrong.

Look to the East my brethren! Get a kneeling bench or meditation cushion set,
buy a bench from Ikea, put your computer on it and get to work.

This goes even better with an external ergonomic keyboard like the Kinesis and
a height adjustable laptop stand clamped to the bench.

Check it out!
[https://cloud.disroot.org/s/XZnwfi9m7xicyCx](https://cloud.disroot.org/s/XZnwfi9m7xicyCx)

~~~
senorsmile
I really like this idea. I have struggled with back and neck issues for a long
time. I think I shall have to try this. Btw, that thinkpad looks exactly like
my p51s.

~~~
taohansen
It’s a P50!

No kidding, I’ve struggled with the same my whole life. Got into Olympic
lifting, saw chiropractors, osteopaths: moving to sit on the floor was the
only thing that saved me.

My Keybase is linked in my profile if you have any questions!

------
jschwartzi
Lift weights.

~~~
kirse
That plus mobility exercises (DeFranco Agile 8 is a good base, adjust as
needed).

[https://www.t-nation.com/training/defranco-
agile-8](https://www.t-nation.com/training/defranco-agile-8)

~~~
unit91
What?! How'd they get that black-and-white picture of me? :)

------
philfrasty
Tip for anyone who wants to get into working out but has a hard time sticking
to it: sign up for something where you book classes at a fixed time instead of
just signing up for a gym. I have been working out at regular gyms for the
last 10+ years (it's part of my biz) and recently switched to Crossfit with
fixed-classes...insane how the combination of fixed appointment + small group
fosters discipline/motivation.

------
iammiles
I'll echo having a standing desk and alternating between sitting and standing.
Also about every hour I'll try to remember to have a 5 minute walk.

------
globuous
EDIT: it doesn't actually address the question until the PS. Just my 2 cents
on back pain while coding. But it implies not sitting....

Actually, something I just realized is that I'd rather be mostly lying and
trying to find a neutral position that gives be proper head alignment while
not 'flex' my neck muscles. It allows me to type use my computer while
completely relaxed.

It requires being able to lie down and exercise every 2h to 'activate' you
muscles every so often.

I know that in this position, I can type for 12 hours easy, a few days in a
row (I'm only 26 though). My father has bad back pain (slipped disc for many
decades) and since I was a kid I've seen him work on his computer lying down
over week-end in his bed with a bunch of pillows.

But I always wondered if this was actually a sustainable posture. What do you
guys think ? Would I rather code sitting down as much as I can and only lie
down when I need to ? But if it's better to kinda lye down like in a
Lamborgini when using a computer, maybe that's the future ! ^^

I'm sorry I don't have a better recommendation for OP, good luck to you :)

P. S. I've seen people recommend the Kinesis Advantage2 keyboard, just letting
your know that my brother was going through RSI and this keyboard helped him
tremendously. He also invested in an 'ergonomic' chair he felt comfortable
working on. And also invested in a desk that you can raise and work standing
up from. It's a big investment but he's feeling muuuuch better. You're an
'athelete' of the computers, I think that justifies buying 'athlete' equipment
for us. Just like a race car driver has an crazy car or Federer has a crazy
racket and good shoes.

------
avtar
Lots of great tips here regarding taking breaks every 30 mins to stand, walk,
stretch, etc. Yoga and other forms of core strengthening exercise will help
reinforce better posture.

If you don't do this already then ensure that your knees are lower than your
hips by placing a cushion or something underneath you [1]. That seems to help
promote the natural curve in the lower back. Doing that while gently lowering
shoulders, keeping them back, and raising the chest forward a bit helps a lot.
For me it's a dynamic process that requires frequent checking-in to make
adjustments and release tension.

[1] [https://www.garmaonhealth.com/wp-
content/uploads/2014/12/Sea...](https://www.garmaonhealth.com/wp-
content/uploads/2014/12/Seated-Meditation-Alignment.gif)

Linked from this site [https://www.garmaonhealth.com/meditation-posture-
manifests-g...](https://www.garmaonhealth.com/meditation-posture-manifests-
goals/)

------
b0rsuk
I don't sit except when necessary. I can do that because I'm looking for a
job. It's been a few months and I noticed my bad back condition drastically
improved out of sudden. I promised myself to never sit again in front of
computer at home. I Currently have my PC next to bed.

Standing desk is not a solution. Standing for long periods is less healthy
than walking. Ask any barber about occupational diseases. They'll tell you
there are issues with knees and blood circulation. Ask any person whose job
involves standing for long periods of time, like a shop clerk.

I do 40 minutes of core exercises 4 times a week due to my bad back, and it's
helping a great deal. Recently I started incorporating the ultimate back
exercise - pullups. But I believe the long term solution is a chaise or a very
horizontal recliner, like a dentist's chair. Obviously you're NOT going to get
something like that installed at a typical job unless you're the CEO I guess.

------
TallGuyShort
I've had severe, 2-3x weekly migraines most of my life (I'm 30) and in the
last year I've managed to virtually eliminate them. Posture turned out to be a
big part of this. Some of the things I've done that seem to have made a huge
difference:

\- Sit closer to the edge of my chair - I'm a bit shorter than many are
designed for. I keep a small cushion between my back and my office chair. It
keeps me sitting upright and helps my legs form right angles with themselves,
with the floor, with my back, and be well-supported. With my back supporting
itself more, I don't slouch as easily. If you're also short, also look into
foot rests so your feet don't dangle.

\- I've spent some time messing with arm-rests but my current office chair
can't get to quite the right height and I haven't found a good solution (don't
want to buy yet another chair). The only migraines I've had recently felt
connected to spasms in my shoulder, so I suspect that's still my weak spot.

\- Raise my monitor up, big time. It's actually at eye-level if I look
straight ahead, not just at a level that seems normal for looking at.

\- Work out more. I just bought a moderately heavy kettle bell to build some
strength and get my wriggles out. A few times a day when I walk by, I'll pick
it up and do a few lifts in each arm, do a couple of back exercises. Not
directly related to posture, but I'm sure it helps, and also helps with some
related issues. Any moderate exercise is probably good.

\- Massage therapy every 6 weeks or so - often timed to be right after I
return from a business trip or some other very stressful time. Now that I'm
used to this, honestly I don't need much of an excuse to go :) Again, not
directly related to posture, but if you're suffering from the problems related
to bad posture, this could help to while you're figuring it out (since I'm
sure it takes some experimentation for most people).

------
jseliger
Sit-stand desk: [https://jakeseliger.com/2015/01/24/geekdesk-max-sit-stand-
de...](https://jakeseliger.com/2015/01/24/geekdesk-max-sit-stand-desk-review-
two-years-with-a-motorized-desk)

As others have said too, lifting weights / yoga.

There is no "easy" answer. Sitting seems very bad. These recent discussions:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16465294](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16465294)
and
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16471215](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16471215)
are useful.

------
Byteme8199
Take breaks every hour or so to do a few minutes of deep squats, push-ups or
any other stretchy activity. Not only will you be able maintain better
posture, but you may also find yourself more refreshed to take on your work
flow without mental fatigue.

------
alsetmusic
I used to have debilitating back pain. I saw chiropractors and got frequent
back massages, wore a lifting belt at times, invested in a high end
tempurpedic bed (which I recommend), and stretched daily. Besides the bed, the
most useful move was a proper chair. I have an Aeron that I love and recently
suggested the same for my brother, who also has frequent back pain. Whatever
brand you choose, proper seating is invaluable.

[https://www.hermanmiller.com/products/seating/office-
chairs/...](https://www.hermanmiller.com/products/seating/office-chairs/aeron-
chairs/)

------
bra-ket
Take a break for a smoke every half an hour

~~~
majewsky
s/smoke/walk/

------
gldalmaso
One thing I realized after starting Pilates was that before I didn't have good
posture not because I didn't remember to sit correctly but rather I didn't
have the muscular strength to keep my body on that position. With a weak
abdominal core, you get fatigued from sitting straight and quickly relax to
lean on the chair, putting strain on your spine which lead to back pains.

You need exercise to have a healthy muscular strength to hold your skeleton
properly. When you achieve that sitting straight is not the burden it felt
before.

------
huy-nguyen
I have an adjustable desk at work and alternate between sitting and standing
every hour or so. The bathroom is also on another floor so I walk up/down the
stairs a few times a day.

~~~
sndean
> The bathroom is also on another floor so I walk up/down the stairs a few
> times a day.

It does seem like this is one of the better ways to go about it, where you
have to get up. In my case the vending machine that takes Apple Pay is across
campus/base a quarter mile away.

------
salmonfamine
I have scoliosis and a chronically screwed up upper back. If I sit at a desk
with a bad ergo setup, I will experience back pain within 30-45 minutes. I'm
pretty tall, so the majority of desk setups are, by default, too short, and
force me to hunch over my keyboard. A good chair helps as well.

Besides that, regular exercise helps tremendously. Seriously, if you do not
exercise at least twice a week, I would strongly advise making beginning to do
so your highest priority.

------
sebkap
I recommend Gokhale method ([https://www.amazon.com/Steps-Pain-Free-Back-
Solutions-Should...](https://www.amazon.com/Steps-Pain-Free-Back-Solutions-
Shoulder/dp/0979303605)) which helped me fix my back pain and allow to sit for
long periods of time without any problem. This book will teach you how to sit
correctly and few other things about your back.

------
kyriakos
I used to have back pain from sitting too long. So I fixed the problem by
going to gym (couple of times a week) and taking short breaks every 45 - 50
minutes while at work. Just going to get a glass of water, visiting the
bathroom, moving to talk to a colleague did the trick. Also push ups, almost
daily, twice a day doing 20 push ups really made a difference.

------
bewe42
I have a simple standing table arrangement. My main table is wide enough to
put another small side table on it (bought for 5 quid or so at Ikea). Most of
the time I sit, but several times a day I stand using the side table. Works
perfectly. Standing up also helps me to re-focus. I highly recommend this.

------
bewe42
I also recommend the foundation training. It's helping me a lot and really
simple to do. Have a look:
[https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCOkRpabTWz-G5dRqsABppDQ](https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCOkRpabTWz-G5dRqsABppDQ)

------
Apreche
I don't bother. I got a nice hunch going on. No back pain, though! I'm very
comfortable.

------
zcarter
One weird trick: sit at the very front of your chair with your thighs pitched
down, weight resting on your butt. That will angle your pelvis forward, closer
to a standing position. You should find it easier to sit upright with your
spine straight.

------
CryptoPunk
I find not leaning back when doing a physical activity like typing helps. So
that means I lean a little a bit forward. This takes more energy but reduces
strain put on the joints/muscles that are tensed while typing.

------
gringoDan
No need for anything crazy - just position your laptop so the screen is at eye
level when you're sitting up straight. My personal setup is Roost Stand +
external keyboard & mouse.

And I'd echo lifting weights.

------
austincheney
If you really want to improve your posture get really bad asthma and run a lot
at fast speeds. The rest of the day you are in recovery and when the pollen or
arosoles get really bad you will probably be spending a good portion of the
day in a casual asthma attack. Today was really bad as I had to limit myself
to a 14 minute two mile and that left me utterly exhausted.

Good posture at this point becomes involuntary, provided you remain awake, as
you are casually trying to focus with minimal air intake. Your body will
naturally right itself into the most rigid form that benefits pulmonary
relaxation at the cost of other muscle systems, particularly as the bonchial
muscle systems approach muscle failure and your asthma symptoms subside.

------
henrik_w
Not for posture per se, but two things that help me:

\- Using a standing desk, and alternating between sitting and standing during
the day.

\- Using a break program (I use MacBreakZ) to do some stretches every 45
minutes or so.

------
gk1
I spend a lot of time on calls. Whenever I can (if I'm not on video) I stand
up and pace around my office during the call. Some times I even grab a
resistance band.

------
gymshoes
I follow a pomodoro-music approach. Play ambient music for 25 minutes and go
for a walk.

Apart form that, lifting weights in the gym and doing back exercises.

------
maelito
Use a desktop setup with a height adjustable monitor (or a pile of 'learn this
language' fat books) and an external keyboard.

------
exabrial
Proper desk height, proper chair height.

I'm 6'4", so nothing 'standard' even confess close to being ergonomic

------
moneytide1
Quitting sitting job has allowed me to stand and move often.

------
melvinram
Stand for part of the day.

------
sunmag
With an ergodox keyboard.

------
ntlk
I lift.

------
cup-of-tea
I lift weights and stretch on a regular basis. Even though I spend only a
fraction of my time doing this and most of my time sitting I do not suffer
from back pain or posture problems. I used to suffer from both.

I've been doing strength training for almost two years now and I've got to the
point where my strength is classed as "advanced". That's roughly where a
reasonably strong person can expect to get to with consistent training and no
drug use. I also finely control my diet.

For strength training I used a program called Greyskull LP (Phrak's variation)
[1] and for my diet I use Leangains. Both are quite technical and make sense
to hackers, I think. Phrak's variation of GSLP is important because it places
equal emphasis on pull movements for upper body. These are better for the
shoulder joints than pushing and lead to having balanced strength. Unbalance
is the cause of many pains and posture problems.

For stretching I used a program calling "Starting Stretching" [3]. I was able
to increase my flexibility significantly which helps me with cycling.

[1] [http://i.stack.imgur.com/OUcEY.png](http://i.stack.imgur.com/OUcEY.png)
[2]
[https://www.reddit.com/r/leangains/wiki/faq](https://www.reddit.com/r/leangains/wiki/faq)
[3] [https://phrakture.github.io/starting-
stretching.html](https://phrakture.github.io/starting-stretching.html)

~~~
supreme_sublime
I've been doing Stronglifts for a bit, fell off for a few months but got back
on it regularly the past 6 months or so.

My biggest problem has always been my diet. I'm pretty used to eating whatever
I want as I've always been tall and lean. At the moment I eat a lot of tacos,
eggs and bacon, I also eat a spicy chicken deluxe from Chick-Fil-A for lunch
every day I'm in the office. Probably not the best diet. I'm not opposed to
eating healthier foods, but for the past couple weeks I've been doing time
restricted eating to pretty decent effect. Basically the same thing as
intermittent fasting, just not as much of a focus on the diet side of things.

All this to say, all the advice I've seen online about what diet are focusing
on macros, which is great. What I really want though is specific meals that
are easy to make in large quantities so I don't have to spend all my time
cooking. Do you have any resources for that? I've come across some sites like
[https://www.eatthismuch.com/](https://www.eatthismuch.com/), but last I
checked the recipes are kind of lacking. Any recommendations there?

~~~
n4r9
I'm confused. If you've always been tall and lean and are trying to get
strong, why are you restricting your eating? Tacos, eggs, bacon and chicken
are all great foods to fuel a program like Stronglifts.

~~~
supreme_sublime
Well, I've gained about 25 pounds, a lot of which is muscle, but some of it
was fat as well. I'm probably about 15-18% bodyfat now. Since summer is
approaching I'm thinking I want to cut. I've never really tried to cut before
so I'm at a bit of a loss as to how to do that. I would basically just eat
everything in an attempt to gain weight.

