
Python.org Redesign Request for Proposals - jnoller
http://pythonorg-redesign.readthedocs.org/en/latest/
======
krschultz
<shameless plug> A couple years back I was working at Bug Labs and we relied
heavily on the Openembedded project. We contributed source code patches as you
would expect, but one unique contribution was having our designer make a new
logo for Openembedded. You can see it on their website today. </shameless
plug>

This doesn't seem to occur to people very often, but if your company is
relying on an open source project, source code patches are not the only way to
contribute back.

Can you spare some time from your designer? Help out with a logo or website
design work.

Do you have a doc writer? We all joke about RTFM, but if there is no manual
that doesn't help much.

There are some things that developers don't necessarily _want_ to do, so those
areas often lack on open source projects based on volunteers. A company using
their resources to fill in some of the gaps helps a lot.

I also don't understand why designers will compete on 99designs but don't seem
to contribute to open source that often. If you are trying to break into the
industry by showcasing your work, why prefer the 1 in 30 odds of having your
design chosen in a crowd sourcing competition over actually helping out an
existing project?

~~~
patio11
Some programmers passionately believe that contributing to OSS is status-
increasing, perhaps enough to be a self-fulfilling prophecy. I have yet to
meet a designer who believes this.

There exist UX paths by which contributing to OSS via code is easy, obviously
wanted, and generates warm fuzzies. The fork-and-go experience of adding one
marginal feature to a gem for Ruby then sending a pull request feels like
ponies and sunshine every step of the way. By contrast, there exists no
infrastructure or UX to support designers contributing in the same way. You
probably have to send an email to a project maintainer. Try sending ten of
those: report how sunny your ponies feel as a result.

OSS projects, in the main, very aggressively signal that they do not care
about design. Just having _a logo_ makes it look like you have super-anomalous
levels of care relative to OSS. Designers pick up on hints like "your web
presence is a default Github page" and "your logo was created by a programmer
in MsPaint" to decide that their talents are probably better applied
elsewhere, where they will be valued.

Also, 99designs will pay more designers more money today than entire
communities of OSS developers will this year. Even starving artists can do the
math.

~~~
mnutt
I think just as large a part is that it's difficult for multiple designers to
contribute to a project in a meaningful way without stepping on each others'
toes. Do designers often collaborate in groups of more than two? (Layer Tennis
is the only thing that comes to mind)

If I were evaluating a project I would choose a project with a default Github
page over a project done in MSPaint just because there's a good chance that
the latter was written by a developer who _likes_ the MSPaint logo.

------
hising
One thing that would really make the website work better is to make pages like
<http://docs.python.org/library/stdtypes.html> hierarchical with an overview
and one or two sub levels so each function gets its own page, making it easier
to find via search (The Google) and do dynamic linking from IDE:s or whatever
if the url routing were set up smart.

Today when you search for 'random.choice python' you get to the random front
page with 20+ random functions forcing you to first click on the google search
result (probably with a lower CTR than if you have had the function name in
the title) and then when entering the docs page hit CTRL+F and do a page
search for 'random.choice'. That would make my life easier, and annotated
documentation, preferably with some kind of "like"-functionality pushing the
good answers up. I do get however that some people like to have the full spec
for all random functions in one page...

~~~
Alex3917
The first thing I do when learning any piece of technology is putting all the
docs into a mindmap, e.g. here is one I made the other day for Jinja2:

<http://www.alexkrupp.com/Jinja%20docs.html>

FreeMind .mm file: <http://www.alexkrupp.com/Jinja%20docs.mm>

Ideally the HTML of the Python docs should be structured in such a way that
the all the built-in functions, string functions, regex functions, etc. can be
dumped into a mindmap automatically each time the documentation is changed.

~~~
anonymousDan
I like it! How did you create the jinja html? Did you first create the .mm and
then export to html somehow? Or did you have to create it manually?

~~~
Alex3917
I created it manually using FreeMind. I basically just copied and pasted each
section from the docs, and then grouped some of them together in logical ways
to make it easier to read. I also deleted most of the usage notes about how
previous versions worked, since I was starting with the newest so all of that
was irrelevant to me.

------
jnoller
As one of the people behind this, and a PSF director I am here to answer any
questions people might have.

~~~
its_so_on
Edit: now I'm at -3. Still, I'm going to let this ride (not delete it), as
even though it is not about the web site, I think my suggestion is serious and
would benefit Python - i.e. get to the right audience here.

I will also add that Python is my favorite language, and I hold it in a
completely separate league from every other language I'm familiar with.
Nothing else comes close.

That said.

"Python.org Redesign Request for Proposals"

I was initially excited about the title - due to misinterpreting what
'redesign proposal' might read. I was awed as I started reading the first half
of the first sentence of the linked article

"The Python Software Foundation (PSF) is accepting proposals

WOW

for architecture,

WOW

design, development, and maintenance

WOW

...of the primary web site.

Oh.

I really thought you were reaching out the community, really talking about the
fundamental design of Python (how I misconstrued the HN title) even from
people totally outside of python, in an unprecedented move.

I thought you were really setting out to evaluate fundamental design
decisions, that might eventually lead to a Python 5.0 that lives on the web
and is attractive to whole swathes of novice and advanced developers who
currently use PHP. I think such a widely advertised call for design proposals
would benefit everyone.

The websight redesign reachout is, of course, not really connected with such a
thought.

~~~
olavk
A redesign of the Python core language will not convert PHP users. Python is
already much better than the PHP language. The benefit of PHP is that it is
widely supported by hosting providers and because the default mode of web
development (add some php tags to a html page) is extremely easy to get
started with.

~~~
its_so_on
I think 'hosting providers' are a throwback to the late 90's and the last
decade. These days anyone who needs more than a service like wordpress (and
there are many, many people who are happy to use hosted blogging etc servies)
is likely to have their own server instance. Are there really that many people
who have access to 'only' PHP, but not whatever framework they would like?
(from django to rails).

~~~
lukeschlather
I think you underestimate the usefulness of a hosted environment. I need a
really good reason to set up a full stack myself and incur the maintenance
problems of system upgrades and hardening an entire OS.

That said, you are right that there are plenty of hosting providers with
ruby/python available in some capacity.

~~~
its_so_on
In the comment that you're replying to, my exact words were "are there really
that many people who have access to 'only' PHP, but not whatever framework
they would like? (from django to rails)". After I said that loads of people
are happy with Wordpress, and other similar services, including with plugins,
and just use that instead of php and html.

So, whereas previously (in the 90s) you would have a big jump from HTML only
with maybe PHP _or_ you jump up to paying for a server every month and having
to lock it down and administer it yourself, now, the former category has
access to _loads_ more 'hosted' service possibilities so that what you can do
with "wordpress only" has substantially increased; meanwhile, the latter
category has come down substantially, due to instances on the cloud being so
much cheaper and the amount of uptake making it much more worth it for a
company to put out a standardized image with a few frameworks, etc.

So my point was twofold. Firstly, the old 'hosted content' users have access
(and use) substantially fuller services, and the old 'full stack' users AND
some of the old 'php is all I can use' users now have EASY access to a full
instance or whatever framework you want.

Between the two, I think your comment doesn't have much currency.

------
gosub
One other thing they should improve is the search function in the
documentation:

<http://docs.python.org/>

The first relevant result for searching "string concatenation" is around the
20th place.

<http://docs.python.org/search.html?q=string+concatenation>

~~~
benhoyt
Funny -- I've used Python and its online docs for many years and never used
their search, I always use Google. :-) Google search with site:docs.python.org
does a somewhat better job: [http://www.google.com/#hl=en&sclient=psy-
ab&q=string...](http://www.google.com/#hl=en&sclient=psy-
ab&q=string+concatenation+site:docs.python.org)

------
neovive
Best of luck with the redesign. I recently started learning Python and finally
realize what I've been missing for so many years.

I'm not sure of the intended audience of python.org (new users vs.
experienced), but as a brand new Python user, the current website is filled
with lots of great information, but is a bit intimidating. I think the Python
language really sells itself and it would be nice to see some simple examples
on the homepage as is done on the NodeJS page (e.g. <http://nodejs.org/>).

Reading through some of the posts on Guido van Rossum's blog was also very
inspiring ("Python in the Scientific World", "The depth and breadth of
Python"). It's great to see a BDFL so actively involved. There are so many
great stories about how Python is used successfully across in so many
industries and among well-known brands. It would be great to see more of this
on the main page.

~~~
jnoller
we actually put a lot of thought into the target audiences: [http://pythonorg-
redesign.readthedocs.org/en/latest/#audienc...](http://pythonorg-
redesign.readthedocs.org/en/latest/#audiences) \- and I concur, a frontpage
without a language example, or slide show of examples is almost a non starter
for me

~~~
neovive
Excellent -- the "Potential users" summary fits me perfectly. Great work on
the rfp. If you need any perspectives or feedback from a very new Python user
as you move on in the process, feel free to send me a message. I would be more
than willing help.

------
akie
I'm wondering if it's really a good idea to have such wildly differing
requirements be fulfilled with one just proposal.

Let me elaborate: you're asking a potential bidder to be fluent in information
architecture, _and_ back-end development, _and_ systems architecture, _and_
design. Those four disciplines are so far apart that I would be very curious
to see if you can select one company that does all of them equally well. And
if you do happen to find one, it would be interesting to see if they really
can deliver top-notch quality in all of them.

If you ask me, you'd be better of recruiting a separate design, possibly
accompanied with an appropriate information architecture, and _then_ start to
think about how to do the back-end development and systems architecture.

Not only is this a separation of concerns (hooray!), I also think it will get
you a bigger pool of applicants, they will also be more likely to be world
class in their field. No-one is world class in _all_ those fields at the same
time, and trying to find one company that _is_ will most likely get you an
'average' result in at least one area.

~~~
jnoller
Thank you - I don't disagree with you, honestly though, the overhead of trying
to manage those separate entities will quickly outstrip the time and ability
the volunteers who are evaluating and managing this process have.

If a given company feels it is lacking in any single area, I encourage them to
include other specialists in that area as part of their bid - for example, if
they're awesome back end designers, but can not do front-end design, I would
expect them to find a trusted designer to work with them as part of the bid.

Even though this effort is funded, the management of it, the evaluation of the
designs/etc is all volunteer based. We can not chase multiple contractors :(

That said, the design people/firms I spoke to about this seemed to understand
this and stated they would do as I outlined above.

------
neonkiwi
> _Content must be editable offline, when there is no network availability._

I'm curious to know why this is a requirement for python.org? I mean, edit
contention is an area one has to deal with even if editing with a network
connection, so there isn't an enormous technical burden associated with
offline editing, but this does require more effort.

~~~
ajdecon
I'd guess that there are current website editors (especially writing docs)
whose existing workflows include a lot of offline time. Poor Internet
connections at home, lots of time traveling and working on airplanes,
vacations to beautiful places with no Internet...

~~~
jnoller
Yup, exactly.

------
zalew
I don't mean to hijack the thread, but (a bit) relevant:
[https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/django-
developers/2X...](https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/django-
developers/2Xy7SZAOc7E) "Redesign of djangoproject.com"

good luck for both, can't wait.

------
jwallaceparker
The Python website certainly doesn't have a welcoming feel to it.

A redesign will be a great move.

~~~
lmm
Strongly disagree. The python website has always felt like one of the last
bastions of function over form; it's not slick, but the content you actually
want is right there without any distractions. If it turns into one of these
30%-margin, rounded-corners sites with half the text I'll be sad.

Maybe I'm just getting old.

------
mvanveen
This is definitely a shameless plug, but I thought it might be worth
mentioning here that my current side project is a MIT-licensed Python
documentation API called "Python Docs," available at:
<http://github.com/mvanveen/docs> .

The goal is to leverage static analysis as much as possible to provide an
intuitive API for Python documentation primitives. So far I have used the
project to power a code browsing interface that I recently started working on,
but I think that others could find the project really useful.

------
illumen
Plone should do something for this, it sounds very well suited? Any plone
people about? I guess moinmoin/trac too :) What about some Django or pyramid
teams?

People from the PSF will probably also put in a proposal, since lots are web
people. Which ones?

A top agency could probably charge at least $1 million for something like
this. So I doubt there will be a top result... unless they do it pro bono.
Which would let USA companies do it as a tax right off if I'm not mistaken?
Maybe one of the sponsors will put in a bid: Facebook, Google, or Dropbox?

All very exciting.

Or perhaps some wunderkid-wizard-wonk will hack tirelessly on their
keyboard+wacom - powered only by a will to provide pythonistas everywhere a
great website. They will about face everything with a fresh open approach,
that turns the ideas upside down and puts code and projects first, doing an
edgy remix of pypi, that integrates an IDE console inside the website (or
coming up with an actual good idea) that makes people think "why weren't all
programming websites like this already?". They'll do all this before the
submission period is even up, having gathered feedback and evolved their idea
consulting tens of 1000s of pythonists, djangonaughts, and people from other
communities. Time magazine will have a picture of them next to the new
python.org with the headline in all caps... _"EPIC"_.

------
obtu
Looking at the requirements, particularly l10n and the REST API for editing
(which rules out compilers, unless the API server operates at a different
privilege level), this will have to be solved by something like a CMS. Except
for the offline editing requirement, which makes something DVCS-backed
necessary. Anyway, it will be a good showcase for whichever stack is chosen.

------
srbproject
In something as complicated and as has as much information as a an open source
project does, the need for a clean, organized, thoughtful interface
plan/design is paramount. The quicker the information is to find and the more
digestible it is, the quicker the project will be adopted and built upon... in
theory of course!

------
pbreit
Might this include some improvements to the dreadfully designed Sphinx?

~~~
akuchling
The RFP says "The proposal may feature a retheming of <http://docs.python.org>
but need not do so," so that depends on how ambitious the proposers are. The
focus of the RFP is definitely www.python.org.

------
loceng
Good luck!

~~~
jnoller
Yeah, we'll need it - it's been a long time in coming.

