
Why Stuff From China Is So Cheap - jacquesm
http://jacquesmattheij.com/why-stuff-from-China-is-so-cheap
======
pavs
One of the issue that comes up with this type of discussion about low pay to
workers on developing worlds like China, India, Bangladesh (recently you might
have heard some news about it in the media).

I am in Bangladesh, while I agree that a lot can be done to improve working
conditions and worker safety, and in some cases worker's payment too. But its
not nearly as bad as people make it (esp the ones who have never lived in such
circumstances or in those countries). They may not get paid the same salary
according to western standard, but the worker are doing (for the most part)
pretty fine with the amount of money they are making. As a matter of fact,
most of them have never seen so much money in their life, and most of the
garments workers (mostly women) who without garments work would either be
house wife, or beggars or do seasonal farming work 2-3 months a year with
1/10th of the pay, if at all (usually they get paid by farmed goods like rice,
instead of money).

You have to understand, you can live a very good life with very little money
in this part of the world, as far as the living standard of the local economy
is concerned, the pay is not bad at all (there are few exception where
garments owners take advantage of workers, but its not the norm). Garments
industry alone single handedly have improved countless people's life and
directly or indirectly have saved many people's life too.

To give you an example, we live in a pretty well off part of the city in
dhaka, a family of 6 with 2 maids and 2 drivers (thats how the local culture
works). Our monthly grocery shopping cost rarely goes over 500-600 dollars.
And we eat pretty good too, even compare to my 12 year stay in NY. For a
single person my monthly grocery bill could easily go to 400-500 dollars in
NY, and I used to be fairly frugal. So I think a perspective is necessary when
talking about wages in this part of the world.

This obviously comes at a cost sometimes, but honestly I don't think any sane
person believes the alternative (not having enough jobs, however underpaid
they are) would have been better. Every, so called developed countries, has
come to where they are on the back of cheap labors and poor worker's right and
poor working conditions. That doesn't make it right, but thats pretty much how
it works.

~~~
eksith
You're in Bangladesh and in a well of part of the city, you say. A family of 6
with 2 maids and 2 drivers too. Your entire post reminds me of something else
I read :

[http://newint.org/features/2013/01/01/india-elite-sense-
of-e...](http://newint.org/features/2013/01/01/india-elite-sense-of-
entitlement/)

While the countries are all different (I'm from Sri Lanka originally), the
attitudes are astoundingly similar.

It's the Western equivalent of _let them eat cake_ since they're used to
eating grass. Underpaid labor is better than no pay is an excuse of the
privileged; and only the privileged.

~~~
pavs
Please get off your moral high horse. I used to be like you all smug-faced and
judgmental sitting behind a computer, until I was on the field with brac
(<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BRAC_(NGO)>) and see for myself how the real
world works.

They are NOT underpaid for the most part (If you actually bothered to read
what I wrote). They are under-paid to "western living standard" but not
according to the local living standard (for the most part). There are some
exceptions and exploitations, but its very small percentage, but those are the
examples that the media and people like you try to bring up when discussion
these issues.

Lets be oblivious and ignore the world of good garments industry has done for
literally millions people in the poorest parts of the world.

Change takes time, its not pretty, its not shiny, and its not fairy tale and
sometimes people die in the process.

~~~
siam
You are from BRAC! I have heard they are some sort of BLOOD SUCKER, by giving
small money to poor they take 80% interest. Even some rural farmer had to
suicide after taking loan from Brac. And you are talking about "living
standard" how funny man :)

~~~
pavs
You are confusing brac with something else that happend in india.

~~~
eksith
No, I think he got it pretty spot on.

I.E. From just December last year :

[http://www.eoi.es/blogs/amyblyth/dp-the-grameen-and-brac-
exp...](http://www.eoi.es/blogs/amyblyth/dp-the-grameen-and-brac-experience/)

For balance, here's the response straight from the horse's mouth before that
story was written :

<http://www.brac.net/node/861>

Very convenient when borrowers are unaware of those choices all too often as
happened in Sri Lanka too after the tsunami.

And a guardian piece from 2008 :

[http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2008/feb/20/internationala...](http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2008/feb/20/internationalaidanddevelopment.bangladesh)

Ah, but these are "Western media" outlets with a clearly biased view spewed
from behind the computer. I was born there, but let me return to the modest
shack my granddad built so I'll have better standing, shoulder-to-shoulder,
with you.

Your organization is the NGO equivalent of the U.N. with greater far-reaching
tentacles in every aspect of the poorest communities you influence. The
garment factories you hold in such high esteem are exploitive in the extreme
and the level of self-delusion you exhibit would have been funny if the
consequences weren't so tragic.

Edit: Reply link not showing up yet. Meanwhile, since microcredit is the bread
and butter, so to speak, of the BRAC scheme :

<https://www.google.com/search?q=consequences+of+microcredit>

<https://www.google.com/search?q=effects+of+microcredit>

<https://www.google.com/search?q=repercussions+of+microcredit>

~~~
pavs
Can you please point out the reference of BRAC charging 80% interest rate and
farmers committing suicide?

I didn't find any such thing from your links after a quick glance.

------
jellicle
Hacker News response:

"They knew the risks they were taking. They were all expert electricians who
fully knew that their pay of almost $10,000/year would compensate them for the
risk they were taking. If we started regulating companies like this, pretty
soon there wouldn't be any companies and the entire world economy would
collapse, people eating people, Mad Max Beyond Thunderdome, and you don't want
that, do you? Besides we all know government is bad. These people preferred
their life of liberty and horrific, agonizing electrocution to a life lived
under repressive workplace regulations like putting insulation on high-voltage
wires."

Does that about sum it up?

~~~
hackerboos
Hacker News certainly seems to lean toward the Libertarian-right.

Some of the comments I read regarding regulation (or abolishment of it) is
frightening.

<https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5647898>

~~~
mindcrime
_Hacker News certainly seems to lean toward the Libertarian-right._

That's funny, I feel like HN drifts further and further to the (American
style) Left with every passing month. It's like a flood of refugees from
/r/politics have stormed into the place and set up shop.

I sometimes feel like I'm the only Libertarian left standing. Probably many of
the others have just been browbeaten so much lately that they are commenting
less. _shrug_

~~~
davidw
What if we just _canned the politics_ so that people don't feel the need to
defend a point of view for approximately the 13873878972616th time on the
internet, in full knowledge that no one is going to change their mind? That
means flagging articles like this.

------
smoyer
It's a bit disingenuous to suggest that accidents like this don't also happen
in the U.S. (or other "first-world" countries). In the mid-to-late '90s I was
working on a project that had a fatal accident in the Omaha NE area
(fortunately I wasn't present to witness it).

Another contractor was lacing new fiber-optic cable to the existing coaxial
cable and realized they'd run the fiber over a safety ground about 7 poles
back. Rather than unlace that much cable, they opted to lift the safety
ground, move it outside the fiber and reconnect the ground. These ground wires
are not supposed to be carrying current when things are working correctly -
this one was an it electrocuted those working on it.

Regulations are pretty explicit about how to add cable and telephone wires to
a power pole ... and only the power company is supposed to mess with the
power. The SCTE and NCTA both have training regimens that obsess over safety,
especially when you're working around power (since none of us are actually
power experts).

So why did this accident happen? The workers were contractors of contractors
of contractors who got paid by the mile. The more fiber they laced up in a
day, the more they got paid. They knew there was a slight risk the ground wire
would be hot once disconnected but they chose to ignore it for financial
reasons.

I've seen tall scaffolding on wheels being moved around in the U.S. and I'm
hoping the workers were well versed in the perils of letting their metal
structure touch power lines, but what you can't tell from this video is how
well these workers were trained and whether they realized the wire they hit
was active.

I'm not disagreeing with your article's main points ... that we need to value
human life and protect the environment. But I also don't think this video is
particularly good at promoting those values.

~~~
jcrites
> They knew there was a slight risk the ground wire would be hot once
> disconnected

Is there some way you could measure that before touching it or messing with
it? And then call in the power company if its properties are not what they are
expected to be?

~~~
snowwindwaves
Only in a perfect world would there be zero current on a ground wire.

The current can be measured by measuring the field around the wire. There are
many manufacturers of clip on ammeters which make a loop around the wire and
then measure The current or potential induced in the loop by the field
resulting from the current in the ground wire.

That video was truly horrible. Was that metal scaffolding? I am surprised that
fault carried on for 3 Minutes. A fuse should have blown or other protection
operated.

Maybe if it was wooden scaffolding it was a high impedance fault undiscernable
from high loads.

~~~
smoyer
A clip on ammeter is is a good recommendation. I don't know how sensitive they
were and the nature of the stray voltage.

The video was indeed terrible. I'm guessing the scaffolding was metal but that
the wheels were rubber (it seemed as though the current was only going though
the workers).

------
jdietrich
The headline is a lie. If you follow the link trail, you'll find that the
workers were on a construction site for a municipal biogas facility. If this
is the most disturbing thing Matheij has ever seen, then he clearly knows very
little about workplace safety. Accidents of this sort happen on a daily basis
in the developed world.

Outsourcing is _the_ key driver for workplace safety improvements in China.
The worst working conditions are consistently found in factories producing
goods for the local market. Working conditions in the major OEM factories
routinely meets and exceeds western standards.

Chinese businesses that trade with the west are subject to a degree of
scrutiny that simply doesn't happen within the country. International buyers
are very keen to avoid being the centre of a PR disaster, so they're
fastidious about safety and environmental health.

Corners do get cut in the developing world, but it's ludicrous to paint
western buyers as the bad guys. They're working night and day to make sure
that their contractors abide by the labour conditions set out in their
contract, conditions invariably far higher than the norm in China.

If you want to improve working conditions in Chinese factories, keep buying
Chinese made goods, but demand quality. You can't make an iPhone in a filthy
shack.

~~~
jacquesm
> The headline is a lie.

Because you say so?

> If you follow the link trail, you'll find that the workers were on a
> construction site for a municipal biogas facility.

Thanks for pointing out the link. Link?

Also, such a facility will be somewhere in the chain of production and it is a
fairly good example of the way the typical workplace in China approaches
safety: not.

There are a few efforts underway to counteract this, the best one is probably
the one initiated by Nokia. But there is nothing in that video that you could
not witness in the very large majority of places involved in industry in
China, specifically:

    
    
      - no oversight
    
      - no safety gear
    
      - no safety procedures
    
      - inherently unsafe environment
    
      - not even the basics in place to safely provide power
    

And a whole host of smaller and less important elements.

It's not just corners that are being cut and the western buyers are the ones
who have the most power. They are definitely not 'working day and night to
make sure that their contractors abide by the labour conditions set out in
their contract', that's only a _very_ select few of them.

Yes, outsourcing is a key driver in improving workplace safety in China, but
it's a drop on a very hot plate so far, with the few companies that practice
this doing it largely in response to some very bad PR.

It simply shouldn't be possible to gain an edge over a competitor by cutting
corners (and a lot worse than that, structural abuse is the more correct
term). As long as that is a possibility this stuff will continue.

So indeed, keep buying Chinese goods. But demand they're made using a supply
chain that insists on a certain minimum level of workplace safety and
environmental controls.

The fact that factories/facilities churning out stuff for the locals are even
worse is not in any way an excuse to tolerate these conditions.

~~~
djt
I know people that outsource to china and over the years the conditions have
gotten much better because of the skills and IP trade. From talking to people
in the industry your ideas seems feasible in theory but not in practice. I
talked to people that have had their coffe businesses harmed because they were
running "free trade" coffee since the 70s but now they are asked to pay for a
license to allow them to put that on the label. It's one thing to talk about
the impacts over here but I think for a solution we need to work with people
in-country.

Australia is losing one of its car manufacturers as we speak because our cost
of producing a car here is 4 times the cost in Asia. One of the highest costs
is in labour and OH&S. There is a cost to OH&S.

~~~
jacquesm
> There is a cost to OH&S.

I know, but that does not make it optional.

------
anon1385
>Western companies doing business with China and other 3rd world countries
should demand compliance with the client countries’ OSHA regulations, ditto
when looking at things like labor laws (minimum age for instance) and so on

I think part of the difficulty here is that supply chains are often very long
and complex, across many countries. Companies often have no idea where their
parts or materials really come from, although this may often be wilful
ignorance. They do seem to have some legal obligation to know where things are
coming from[1]. George Monbiot wrote a couple[2][3] of articles recently about
trying to find out where the materials in smartphones are really coming from:

 _Of the manufacturers, Nokia appears to have gone furthest, and its efforts
are quite impressive. Since 2001 – long before most other companies began to
take an interest – it has tried to remove illegally mined tantalum from its
supply chain. It now instructs its suppliers to map the routes these metals
take before they reach the company. The problem is far from solved: it tells
me that "there has been no credible system in the electronics industry that
allows a company to determine the source of their material"_

 _Apple's response was less detailed and less persuasive. To give you an idea
of how complex the problem has become, it has discovered that its metals are
supplied by 211 smelters, liberally distributed around the planet. Any of them
could be using minerals seized by militias in Congo._

As you can probably guess, he ended up not buying a smartphone.

[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dodd_Frank_Act#Disclosures_on_...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dodd_Frank_Act#Disclosures_on_Conflict_Materials_in_or_Near_the_Democratic_Republic_of_the_Congo)

[2]
[http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/mar/11/search-s...](http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/mar/11/search-
smartphone-soaked-blood)

[3]
[http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/apr/25/smartpho...](http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/apr/25/smartphone-
samsung-tin-bangka-island)

------
fpgeek
Yes, on the one hand the working conditions are shocking and horrifying and
deplorable and I would move mountains to keep my children from ever working
anywhere even remotely like that.

On the other, every kid working in one of those factories is one that didn't
get their legs broken or worse so they'd be a better beggar, who isn't
searching through garbage for food or things I can't even imagine.

Within my lifetime, the conversation about China and India has gone from "How
do we keep them from starving?" to "How do we fix their horrible working
conditions?". That's an incredible, historic achievement. Is there still a
long way to go? Absolutely. Plenty of horrible things had to happen in the US
before we got OSHA. But things are heading in the right direction and we need
to keep it that way. Push to make them better, of course, but realize that the
only sustainable change is to broadly raise the standard of living so that
workers want more and are in a position to demand it. Anything less is a house
of cards that will collapse once the spotlight is off.

------
spindritf
Disregard for human life in the People's Republics (not just China) precedes
cheap stuff from Asia by decades.

~~~
bayesianhorse
It's actually the same disregard for human life that could be seen in the not
so distant past in Europe or America. But youtube wasn't around back then.

~~~
sambeau
It was wrong then and it is wrong now.

~~~
icebraining
Saying it's wrong fixes nothing. What realistic alternative would you prefer
instead, how do plan to get people (e.g. factory owners) to follow it without
harming the people you're trying to help?

------
uh_oh
This article has it backwards. These workers don't work is unsafe conditions,
_because_ we don't pay them enough. Rather, the economic reality in China
means that in order to compete with production elsewhere (e.g. in the US) even
a high risk for workers still seems acceptable to them if that means they can
get the job. If we would pay more, the jobs would be done elsewhere or by
robots and those workers won't be happy about that, either. Still, this is
capitalism at its worst, I guess.

~~~
gbog
I think it is a good thing that wealth is rebalanced between countries, and
that these wealth transfer are not UN donations, but the result of commerce
and labor.

------
jeremyjh
There is a quote from Larry Niven's novel "Lucifer's Hammer" that is something
like "a society has the ethics that it can afford." Its pretty easy as an
uncontested industrial super-power to take the hit to GDP that comes with
regulation of working conditions, environment impact and so on. We didn't
become an industrial superpower under those conditions and we are certainly no
longer uncontested. China is going to do what it has to do, just like we did.

------
antris
This post (like many others) completely ignores the fact that these people
_choose_ to work in this environment. Statistics show that factory /
industrial workers in China are doing better than those who stay in rural
jobs. Human development indicators in China have constantly risen since the
1980's [1] and the economy is booming [2].

These sweatshops are horrific to our standards, but to their standards, these
are great places to work.

[1]: <http://hdrstats.undp.org/en/countries/profiles/CHN.html> [2]:
[https://www.google.fi/publicdata/explore?ds=d5bncppjof8f9_&#...</a>

~~~
yuvadam
...and there we go, the proverbial, libertarian "choice".

~~~
bayesianhorse
It's not about "libertarian choice". It's about not being able to change all
the world in an instant. Workplace safety in China looks to be increasing.
Wages too. For that matter, the Chinese workforce is shrinking while Mexico
has lower labor costs.

Also this constant global coverage due to youtube or other media is improving
things in China. Without the unprecedented awareness the internet affords us,
I don't think China would have done more to address these issues

~~~
yuvadam
Yes, work conditions in China are slowly and steadily improving.

But somehow, whenever the concept of _choice_ comes up, it's always about the
privileged giving the oppressed a pep talk, claiming that whatever position
society has put them in "it's really totally fine".

"Safety is increasing" - would /you/ work at such a factory?

~~~
starky
If I were in the same position as those workers in China were, I certainly
would work in the factories. When you options are working a dangerous
manufacturing job getting paid relatively well, or a slightly more dangerous
farming job where you can barely afford to live, the choice is easy.

The US investing in Chinese manufacturing has and is increasing the quality of
life (and safety) for the workers in China. This takes time, and there is
nothing we can do to avoid that. If we were to go in and demand North American
manufacturing salary and safety standards for the entire supply chain, you can
bet their goods would cost more to produce than if we just did it here and we
would therefore just make them here. That would destroy the Chinese economy
and send everyone back into worse conditions than we currently have. Therefore
I would argue that the result would be a net harm if we force conditions to
rise too rapidly, rather a balance must be maintained.

------
bobbydavid
There are a lot of comments about the awful working conditions in China and
how we should push for better conditions, but none I've seen are by the
workers themselves. I can't help but wonder: what is the sentiment on this
issue in China itself? As we've seen countless times before (look at Istanbul
now), widespread civilian unhappiness has a way of bubbling out. Can someone
provide some pointers to Chinese sentiment on this issue?

I ask because I know different areas of the world have different values, and
things that seem wholly unacceptable in one place may seem more tolerable in
another. Look at gun rights in the US, for example. I don't mean to imply that
these workers don't care about their working conditions; I just think it's
important to stay grounded in the reality that what's best for them is what
_they_ want for themselves.

~~~
DanBC
> I just think it's important to stay grounded in the reality that what's best
> for them is what _they_ want for themselves.

That's a baffling comment.

([https://secure.flickr.com/photos/george-photography-
pictures...](https://secure.flickr.com/photos/george-photography-
pictures/5727039970/in/photostream/))

(<http://www.indigenouspeople.net/garbage.htm>)

(<http://oliver-vaccaro.com/index.php?/root/pepenadores/>)

People are trapped in this lifestyle, but feel that it's better than the
alternative. That doesn't mean they truly want this. They just don't know what
else to do.

~~~
bobbydavid
I'm not exactly sure what those photos have to do with anything, but what you
say is true: there are situations where people stay in upsetting situations
because there are no better alternatives. However, they key point is that they
will still be upset. It's the "upset-ness" of these workers that I am trying
to gauge.

I say this because when a people are not upset, it is paternalistic and
imperialist of another group to come in and say, "no, you're doing it wrong.
You don't know it but you're unhappy. Here, do it the way I prefer instead."

I don't mean to insinuate that nobody is upset. Just that it's important to
keep it in mind, and to remember to ask.

------
JanezStupar
Jacques have you ever thought of exploiting this situation. I mean It is well
known and it has been shown that these kinds of inefficiencies can be
exploited.

Why don't you move to Asia and start founding companies? With your superior
knowledge and with the hands of the hard working locals you could start
building a brave new world. You could pay better wages and get increased
worker loyalty in return.

I can easily imagine how a group of entrepreneurs (say 50-100) could change a
whole culture, simply by outcompeting the old way.

------
ghshephard
Does anyone have any knowledge of how dangerous Chinese manufacturing jobs are
compared to, say, US Manufacturing, or other sectors of the US economy?

I.E. Is american agriculture (farming) more dangerous than chinese
manufacturing?

Here is what I was able to find on the US:

[http://www.census.gov/compendia/statab/2012/tables/12s0658.p...](http://www.census.gov/compendia/statab/2012/tables/12s0658.pdf)

US agriculture is pretty dangerous - 25 deaths per 100,000 employees/year.
Anybody able to find stats on Chinese Manufacturing?

[Edit: from <http://www.mindfully.org/Reform/China-Factory-Injuries.htm> \--
"The International Labor Organization has estimated annual deaths from
workplace accidents at 11.1 per 100,000 Chinese workers. That compares with
the U.S. on-the-job fatality rate of 2.19 per 100,000." - That means, given a
choice, you would be safer in a Chinese Manufacturing job than an American
Agriculture job.

Also - the death rate in the United States manufacturing in 1970 is pretty
close to the death rate in China, 2011 ]

[Edit 2: Note - another way of looking at this - if FoxCon Manufacturing was
as safe/dangerous as US manufacturing, there should be about 20 Foxcon work
related deaths per year. Does anybody have insight into how many FoxCon deaths
a year there are?]

~~~
protomyth
Tractors flipping over is probably the big on in US Agriculture, but quite a
few people die in the grain silos doing various things. Most big Ag companies
are fairly psycho about safety. I remember an elevator supervisor who fired
workers who went over the speed limit on the elevators road and being told it
was a firing offense to stand on a chair to reach something.

------
rickdale
Wow, the video is quite terrifying. It shows multiple people accidentally
electrocuting themselves by stepping on a live wire while carrying a metal
manifold. Holy shit is the only real reaction.

China's quality problems in production are nothing new. Pretty certain the
coal mining industry there is reckless compared to the worlds standards. It's
like what Bill Maher said about the baby they found in the sewage pipe this
week, "He's reportedly O.K. and will be back making iPhones soon."

------
phaer
> "In many ways we are complicit, we vote ‘cheap’ every time > we can (I’m no
> exception) and if we can externalize the > problems in such a way that we
> can pretend they don’t > exist then we all sleep just fine at night."

Correct, but an extra problem is: i doubt that my extra money will go to those
workers when i 'vote expensive'. Most of the time the money just goes into
profits for the owners or maybe into an expansion of production. Paying more
does not make anything better as long as there's no way to change priorities.

~~~
benmanns
It's not so much cheap vs. expensive, but cheap vs. certified, humanely
produced goods (which will be more expensive).

------
weavejester
Low safety standards may contribute to the low price of goods produced in
China, but the main reason is that the Chinese government deliberately keeps
the value of the yuan low against the dollar.

~~~
melling
There must be some long term economic repercussion for trying to manipulate
the price of your currency?

~~~
jiggy2011
Not really, if you are a net exporter and most of your countries citizens
never travel abroad.

It might present an issue if they wanted to buy a lot of US made weapons for
example, but China is big enough that it largely does not need America.

~~~
TDL
How does China "not need America"? The U.S. is China's largest trading
partner.

~~~
jiggy2011
It doesn't need to buy stuff from America.

------
chestnut-tree
I didn't watch the video after reading the description. But this problem of
poor worker conditions (and poor compensation) is true of so many goods
produced cheaply in China or other countries in Asia. I feel we in the "West"
(i.e North America, Western Europe) have an ambivalent attitude towards this
issue. We decry the outsourcing of manufacturing to other countries, yet we're
only too happy to continue purchasing those goods. We might say we are
prepared to pay more for quality and standards, but our endless consumption of
all these cheap products suggests otherwise.

What's more, we fawn over some technology companies and take such an
uncritical view of their behaviour over the production of their goods (because
we love their products) when we should in fact be far more critical.

On a more positive note, there are schemes like Fairtrade that have gained
favour with the public. Fairtrade guarantees a fair price to producers of
mostly food products. It's not perfect, but a product with a Fairtrade mark
provides some re-assurance that the product you buy meets certain ethical
standards. Encouragingy, Fairtrade goods are popular with the public too:

[http://www.guardian.co.uk/money/2013/mar/02/fairtrade-
taste-...](http://www.guardian.co.uk/money/2013/mar/02/fairtrade-taste-
growing-britain)

~~~
mseebach
The problem is Fair Trade is that it distorts the price signal in the market
(obviously, that's the point). But the reason coffee is so cheap is that there
is an oversupply - artificially raising the prices extends the problem, it
doesn't solve it (by making some farmers realise they can compete better by
switching crops).

If you want to help, buy expensive, high end coffee - most of it will be Fair
Trade anyway, so I can't say "instead of Fair Trade". But getting the default,
supermarket brand coffee that's 10% more expensive than the non-Fair Trade
option damages more than it helps.

Also, I remember reading somewhere that Fair Trade places some irrelevant
constraints on suppliers, such as the size of the supplier. I can't find a
reference, so it might be wrong, but if it's not, then that suggests that
pandering to western, urban romantic fantasies about rural life plays an
inappropriate role in the scheme as well.

~~~
jiggy2011
I think fairtrade suppliers are all cooperatives. Though in many cases I've
found fairtrade brands not to be significantly more expense (sometimes cheaper
even) than mainstream brands of similar quality.

------
samspenc
As bad as this is, it gets even worse: a lot of the stuff produced in China
and exported overseas is made in forced labor camps (like the infamous
Masanjia labor camp) and prisons by people who're simply imprisoned for being
dissidents. Those people are not only unpaid, but tortured physically and
mentally outside of their grueling work hours.

------
muyuu
The sensational title of this post is really shameful. This is a new low for
HN as far as I've seen.

------
Articulate
It really is in the power of the consumer to force companies to change. The
heads of corporations are required and expected to be seeking out the highest
possible returns for their investors. If their competitors use foreign labor
with very cheap standards then that company is at a disadvantage in the
marketplace. Only when consumers take into account the working conditions of
the laborers does the marketplace change and that empowers/forces heads of
companies to change so that they can continue to bring maximum returns.
Terrible tragedies like this have to be revealed thank you for brining this
up.

~~~
jiggy2011
It seems sort of perverse that working conditions in China are dictated by the
whims of consumers in the west.

How would one go about convincing the consumer to change? That is the hard
question.

There are already various organisations out there who campaign to make people
aware of these conditions, so it's unlikely that people are totally ignorant.

Yet these don't seem to have affected widespread change in spending habits, I
guess because people in the west have their own struggles and it is hard to
say no to cheap. So this makes it easy to dismiss such campaigns as "leftist
commie crap".

It also requires options, for example if I wanted to buy a smartphone that was
free from bad labour conditions right through the supply change, how would I
go about that?

~~~
bryan11
It's not a case of saying no to cheap. For most, it's one of buying stuff from
China or doing without.

Most middle-class consumers in the USA really have few options. Whether from
local stores or online, the majority of all toys, tools, electronics, and
household items are made in China. If another option exists, it's frequently
available online only from Europe or Japan that's twice the cost.

------
bayesianhorse
This is a very very sad video and it made feel sorry for the human lifes that
were destroyed in this incident. And still, this is not really a problem about
work-place safety. I can only assume that this was an honest mistake, of the
workers and maybe the employers to do whatever they were trying to do and
forget the high power line. We might also ask if these workers even knew how
electric power works and why you shouldn't connect a high power line with a
metal construction to the ground (or whatever it was here).

Workplace safety in China still is very bad. No joke about that...

------
snarfy
This was true in the US pre WWII. Who better to walk in to the giant mechanism
of knives and gears than small children? Their little arms can reach!

It doesn't happen anymore because the US doesn't manufacture anything anymore.
Well, there is _one_ thing the US manufactures - energy. Not directly, but
they get all the economic benefit for it.

When you pull a barrel of oil out of the ground, you've created wealth where
there was none before. It is not a zero sum game. When you charge dollars for
that barrel, you give those dollars value in the global energy market. It does
not matter who 'owns' the oil, even another country, as long as it's sold in
dollars, the US gets the benefit.

This is why stuff from China is so cheap. The only thing a dollar is good for
on the global market is energy, but the dollar has a near monopoly on it. The
US doesn't have to do any of the work when they are the ones putting the gas
in the gas tank. The rest of the world makes the engine go off of that gas.

~~~
gregpilling
As a US based manufacturer, I find your comment ignorant. There is a great
deal of manufacturing in the US, and it is getting easier to do - not harder.

I have been manufacturing since 2004. It's not that hard. You start with an
idea, build a minimally viable prototype, improve it, make a final design,
sort out the supply chain and then start building. Design once, sell thousands
of times.

Use automation, its cheaper than even Chinese labor. Work on just-in-time
manufacturing techniques and you can get your inventory down to a small
fraction of annual sales. The multi-axis controls in a 3D printer can be
repurposed to do all sorts of motion control in a factory. See
<https://www.synthetos.com/project/tinyg/>

------
anting
Is there something wrong with me if even after reading this I'd still rather
pay less for things and live in ignorant bliss?

~~~
uptown
I'm curious about a data-point ... how old are you? There may have been a time
when I thought that way, but not now.

------
a1a
<http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=bc3_1345975509>

Video without the youtube login requirement.

~~~
VaibhavBehl
<http://www.youtube.com/v/8GiHE9cItsE>

don't need login from this link.

------
quackerhacker
Regardless of where it's from, this is the most horrifying video I have EVER
seen. I'm just speechless.

~~~
jacquesm
It is the most horrifying to me because of the number of ways in which this
accident was preventable.

------
gcb0
There's worse. Some time ago they showed someone runned over by a truck in a
loading bay. They didn't stop the traffic to help the guy or even drag the
body.

It just become a speed bump for the other trucks.

About a solution... Why not force legislation to not ignore imports? Or maybe
a occupy Walmart movement.

------
gdonelli
I had to google: OHSA -> Occupational Health and Safety Act

didnt know what it was since I am not american

------
motters
Also see
[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T0rwLxPi1Lg&list=PLE0E8B6...](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T0rwLxPi1Lg&list=PLE0E8B694D721D40E)
for some context on how the economic arrangement is organised.

------
ExpiredLink
> _Pollution, a total disrespect for the environment in general and for human
> lives in particular is what powers the trade that brings cheap goods to the
> stores near us._

The Anti-China propaganda has reached HN.

~~~
jacquesm
Wow, that's quite a feat of misunderstanding. And I tried pretty hard to make
sure that that exact comment wouldn't be made in order to reject the thing out
of hand.

I'm _fine_ with producing goods in the far east, _but_ the fact is that the
low prices are in fact powered by more than just a simple difference in value
between currencies and standard of living.

The pollution and the work place risks (including death) are a really large
factor in those price differences, as corroborated not only by this particular
video (which is horrifying) as well as by contact with people that live there
or have spent significant time there.

To dismiss this as propaganda is Ostrich politics at its best, we may have to
simply realize that we will have to pay more for the goods that we receive
unless we want to be explicitly named as accomplices in the situations that we
have created.

The fact that some companies have already started programs to track the
resources that go into their goods and that some companies have agreed to
living wages and anti-pollution measures for their entire supply chain
indicates that at least in some boardrooms the message is heard. Profits are
important but not _that_ important.

~~~
gbog
It's not misunderstanding. You link to an awful video, draw general
conclusions on the account of one event, and your unsaid conclusion is that
Chinese people disdain human lives. 100 years ago you'd have added
infanticide.

So, no, Chinese people are not heartless zombies workers, they cherish human
life and had a full structured ethical system when Europe was Barbary, and
they are taking themselves out of survival mode at a pace that is unseen in
the history, which require some prioritization.

~~~
prewett
Today the apartment complex I in which I live in Beijing sent some guys out to
fix a water leak my landlord reported. There are two: one guy with a big rope
attached to a safety harness he is wearing, the other guy holding the rope
with one hand. The first guy opens the window, climbs through it onto the
1-foot ledge on the 16th floor (the window only opens about 30 degrees, so
this is a little challenging). He caulks a few places, with his companion
holding onto the rope with his one hand, right above the (unclipped) harness
clip. You can be sure that if the first guy slips, he's a goner, there's no
way the second guy is going to catch 150 lbs with his one hand.

So yes, factory conditions on average are probably better than the video, but
no, this is not an isolated incident. I'm sure these guys cherish human life,
but they've probably been doing this all month (at least) without a problem,
why worry? Accidents always happen to the other guy. And there's nowhere to
clip onto, so doing it the right way would be very mafan, whereas this way
they got it done in 5 minutes. Quick and cheap, probably $10 max. The American
way would be safe, take 30 minutes getting the harness set up, 5 minutes
caulking, and cost at least $100.

~~~
gbog
That's a good example, I have seen it and many other. It is not about basic
first order security, it is more about second order precaution principles.

In fact the precaution principle might be a factor paralyzing European economy
right now.

------
dsego
Free market at its finest.

~~~
rdtsc
Very true, the fact that unregulated free market will magically increase the
well-being of everyone is exemplified in such countries. It could be Russia as
well, an African country. Basically any county where there is no _effective_
regulation or control.

Yet I hear often from Ayn Rand loving libertarians about how they hate the FDA
for example and how it is better for it not exist etc etc. I always tell them
this magical place exists today, jump on the plane to China and enjoy drinking
mystery chemicals instead of juice, soda or even tap water.

------
btbuildem
So this is a cold and callous sentiment, but perhaps the reason human life is
valued so little over there is the same reason anything has value: supply and
demand.

~~~
icebraining
Supply and demand don't give value, they just set a price.

------
VaibhavBehl
for people who dont want to login- <http://www.youtube.com/v/8GiHE9cItsE>

------
oulipo
What I find somewhat disturbing is that americans have to see a video to start
to realize that the fact that they want to get cheap stuff means that people
have to work in terrible conditions in other parts of the world...

~~~
icebraining
Because before we started buying cheap stuff from them, they lived in an
hedonistic paradise?

~~~
oulipo
What I meant is: everybody in the world knows that the fact that you have
access to cheap goods means someone is paying for you, the question is why do
people need to see a video to understand this, when the rest of the world can
figure it out on their own?

------
aj700
Supply and demand. The system is pricing their labour as if they are fungible,
so numerous that they are worthless. Because they are that numerous. But you
can't tell people not to breed without taking away their rights. Really, was a
"right" to reproduce a good idea? You can't talk about overpopulation without
being called an ecofascist.

So I suppose it's good that goods won't be scarce much longer and will all be
made with printers, robots, nano-assemblers.

I assume that eventually people's families will be rich enough to sue over
employee deaths?

China makes few lines of products that are luxuries. It makes many that are
necessities at almost any price. I need them. If people don't have enough
money to buy more expensively and carefully made things, it's because
governments have let inequality go too far and because the 1% have hoarded it.

