
Gaijin Engineer in Tokyo - ingve
https://medium.com/@xevix/gaijin-engineer-in-tokyo-aaa9be8919b2
======
YeGoblynQueenne

      You’re Not From Here
    
      You are a foreigner. You were a foreigner before you arrived, you are a foreigner while 
      you are in Japan, and when Japanese go abroad they will still refer to you as a 
      foreigner, ironies be damned. This cannot be understated and will be a recurring theme 
      in the stories to come. Never forget, you’re a foreigner. They won’t ever forget.
    

Well, I experience exactly the same situation and I'm a Greek living and
working in the UK, so it's not something that's particular to the Japanese. It
seems a sizeable chunk of most people you'll meet when you live abroad will be
constitutionally unable to let go of the fact that you didn't grow up within
the same national borders as each other.

~~~
Jdam
> It seems a sizeable chunk of most people you'll meet when you live abroad
> will be constitutionally unable to let go of the fact that you didn't grow
> up within the same national borders as each other.

So what’s the problem with that? I’m an European, currently living in
Singapore. I am a foreigner (Angmoh). People know that. I know that. Cultures
clash here and there but there is no problem with it.

~~~
sridca
In my opinion that is the right attitude to have. I actually enjoy being a
foreigner!

I'm happy to follow the social protocols while never feeling like needing to
belong (which is already hard enough even if you were born a native...).

~~~
mastazi
> I'm happy to follow the social protocols while never feeling like needing to
> belong

I used to be a "digital nomad" before coming to Australia, I lived in many
cities across S. E. Asia and South America and, like you, for a while I really
enjoyed being able to "taste the soup while not diving into it"[1].

However things change when you decide that the place where you are living is
where you want to settle down and build a family (see my other comment in this
sub-thread).

[1] This is a (probably not accurate) quote by writer and journalist Tiziano
Terzani, unfortunately I'm unable to find a link to a source at the moment.

~~~
sridca
Not everyone wants to build a family. Some people are quite happy to be single
throughout their life.

~~~
mastazi
Sure, I wasn't implying that, just pointing out that it may be a possibility.
Also, being single doesn't preclude you from deciding that you want to live
somewhere indefinitely (the point that I wanted to make in my comment was more
related to nomadic vs resident lifestyle, than single vs. married).

~~~
sridca
I'm actually not nomadic. Born in India, but moved to Canada a decade ago.

Things are pretty good here. Because of cultural differences people don't
necessarily have to 'accept' me as one of theirs (it is just human nature to
be so). And that's fine by me. If being emotionally accepted was a factor, I
would have chosen to live among my extended family back in India.

------
fiblye
It's really hard to overstate just how bloated emails are in Japanese. They
seem to follow a very strict script. Once you learn the key words, it's easy
to write and understand, but it's so much fluff for so little meaning. I've
gotten dozens of lines from single emails just asking me about confirming a
skype interview date, while any normal English message would literally be no
more than, "Sure, let's talk at X:XX PM. Contact us beforehand if you have any
troubles."

~~~
ilamont
I consulted for a Vietnamese tech company some years ago and was surprised to
see that most internal emails among top management (most of whom had attended
university overseas) were in English, rather than Vietnamese.

The reason? Written Vietnamese is too formal, and they prefer English for
getting to the point quickly.

~~~
jehlakj
What do you mean by formal?

I’ve always assumed Asian languages to be very informal as a lot of it has to
do with context. At least that’s how some of my friends talk to each other.
And one of the reasons why it’s so hard to blend in. It could also be possible
that they rarely talk formally in person, and I’ve yet to experience it.

~~~
yongjik
> I’ve always assumed Asian languages to be very informal as a lot of it has
> to do with context.

I'm not sure what you mean by this, but if you're thinking about "East Asian
languages omitting 'necessary' grammatical parts all the time", then you might
be talking about this:

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pro-
drop_language](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pro-drop_language)

Note that this is a grammatical phenomenon exhibited by some languages (i.e.,
the characteristics of a language as a whole). Formality/informality is a
concept associated with a particular "speech" inside a language, which is
orthogonal to this. (You can say a particular speech in English is formal or
informal, but it makes little sense to say that "English" as a whole is a
formal or informal language.)

~~~
jehlakj
Interesting. I’ve mistakenly assumed that there is a relative difference
between formal and informal counterparts. Considering the extreme informality
of Eastern Asian languages, I didn’t think their formal language was on the
opposite end of the spectrum.

------
grose
I think you should try working at a smaller company. I've also been an
engineer in Japan for a while and found startups a lot easier to deal with
than mid-sized or larger companies. For example, you almost never have to send
e-mails because everything is over Slack and surprisingly casual. Working with
other teams is easy because there are only a small amount of engineers and
everyone knows each other. Google Docs instead of Excel so you don't have to
worry about SHIFT-JIS. Go somewhere without middle management where you work
directly under the CTO or at most one other guy and you'll see less meetings.
Of course, you'll still see some of the classic Japanese bureaucracy, but
nothing compared to the bigger places.

My main gripe with Japanese companies is that they simply don't pay as well as
American ones do.

~~~
GuiA
_> My main gripe with Japanese companies is that they simply don't pay as well
as American ones do._

Fair, but Tokyo can be much, much cheaper than SF or NYC (in my personal
experience, rent alone is up to a 2-3x difference. Same with dining out - a
1500¥ dinner easily runs you $30-40 with tip in SF).

~~~
desu_
I think the implication is that Japanese companies in Japan pay generally less
than American companies in Japan, which seems true at least when comparing
Japanese and American big names. It's also the case outside engineering/tech.
It's fairly common knowledge among Japanese workers and foreign residents
living in Japan. One hypothesis (which I like) is that Japanese companies
offer a higher non-monetary compensation (I am not talking about flex-time).

~~~
GuiA
Oh I see. I didn’t get the “American companies in japan” subtext. Yes, that
makes sense.

------
erikb
I don't know why this is always made a topic, but I never felt offended by
"gaijin" or the Chinese counterpart "laowai". No big deal.

However I also don't think that "they don't think it's offensive" has any
relevance. Some people think the N-word is not offensive. It still is. Some
men don't think calling a female colleague "babe" is offensive. It still is.

~~~
laurieg
I spent a year abroad studying in Japan with a group of 10 westerners. At the
beginning of the year some people were apprehensive when they learned about
the word 'gaijin'. By the end of the year every member of the group used
'gaijin' in their regular conversation.

This was far outside of Tokyo and seeing a 'gaijin' was a genuinely rare
occurrence. More than anything the word seems to fit a real communicative
need. "I had an interaction with someone that was different from the norm
because they did not look Japanese" is quite a mouthful and invoking the word
'gaijin' starts to happen quite naturally.

My biggest problem with the word is that it is used sloppily. It conflates
race, culture, language and nationality and assumes a kind of all or nothing
approach to them. My black student who was born and raised in Japan fulfilled
3 out of those 4 categories but would be considered gaijin everywhere he went.

~~~
sangnoir
> My biggest problem with the word is that it is used sloppily. It conflates
> race, culture, language and nationality and assumes a kind of all or nothing
> approach to them

Westerners are no better - the US does the same for everyone who is not
"default" (i.e. white) where they are differentiated by a prefix, usually
their heritage, which conflates "culture, language and nationality". Your
black Japanese student would be considered "African American", which is beyond
absurd.

~~~
krapp
>Your black Japanese student would be considered "African American", which is
beyond absurd.

No they wouldn't, for the same reason Americans don't call Africans "African
American."

~~~
mazerackham
They would. Listen closely to how you and your friends tell stories next time.
Race and gender are almost always used to describe people. "My landlord, who's
a black guy, <STORY DETAIL THAT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH BEING BLACK OR BEING A
MAN>"

~~~
krapp
>Race and gender are almost always used to describe people. "My landlord,
who's a black guy, <STORY DETAIL THAT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH BEING BLACK OR
BEING A MAN>"

I don't refer to people primarily by their race, and I don't recall my friends
doing so. While I don't deny that sort of conversation happens, it's probably
not as idiomatic as you seem to believe.

I'm sure you can understand how easily a stereotype like that can fail when
applied to a country as populous and diverse as the US.

------
MacroChip
Mister Wainzinger,

Sorry to ask for your time, but if it is possible for you to let me know, I
would love to read about a Japanese engineer living in the US. Are you aware
of any related articles or response articles on this topic? I understand that
it may be an inconvenience to tell me about these articles, but your
cooperation is greatly appreciated in this matter.

Apologies and thanks,

Thien, Chip

~~~
schoen
I don't think you'll get a reply to this because this article wasn't posted to
Hacker News by its original author, and I don't think the original author is
participating in this comment thread at all. You might want to find a
different way of contacting the author.

~~~
viraptor
I'm 99% sure it was a joke, written in the style described in the article.

~~~
schoen
Could be! Poe's Law has come up pretty often on Hacker News recently; maybe
I'm the latest "victim". :-)

------
jrockway
I think people put too much meaning in Japanese set phrases, imagining them to
have their literal meaning when that is not what they actually mean. The
author provides this transcript:

    
    
       Me: This is clearly broken!
       Tanaka: Yes, you’re right.
       M: Shouldn’t we do something about this?
       T: Nothing can be done.
       M: This is easily patchable!
       T: I’m sorry.
       M: Who’s responsible for this code?
       T: Team X.
       M: Somebody on our team should talk to them.
       T: Yes, you’re right.
       M: Well, can I talk to them?
       T: Ah, it’s not impossible.
       M: Does that mean I can?
       T: Who knows.
       M: …
    

I've had this conversation in English with American coworkers more times than
I can remember:

    
    
       A: This is clearly broken!
       B: Yeah....
       A: Shouldn't we do something about this?
       B: It's not a priority.
       A: This is easily patchable!
       B: I have to work on Project X now, they've been bugging me about it for months and their manager is getting mad at _me_ now.
       A: Who's responsible for this code?
       B: Team X.
       A: Somebody on our team should talk to them.
       B: I already have 8 meetings this week, I don't have time.
       A: Can I talk to them?
       B: They never answer my email.
       A: I'll email them.
       B: Good luck!
    

It all boils down to the same issue: the person you're conversing with doesn't
consider the matter as urgent as you. The words used are different but the
message is the same: "meh". This isn't a Japanese thing or an American
thing... it's a people thing. And honestly, a lot of times, they're right.

------
coconut_crab
I noticed something similar in my company:

\- Meeting, a lot of meeting, on average 2 hours a day.

\- Scrum is also meeting heavy, for a 5 days Sprint, the first 3 days is to
write the document, splitting tasks into smaller subtasks (so that anyone can
code for it), the rest 2 days are for actual coding.

\- It's very hard to track responsibility due to 'group think' \- HoRenSo.

\- Disputes aren't resolved completely but just shoved under the rug. The one
who tries to pursue it will be alienated. They have a proverb: "The nails that
stick out shall be hammered".

\- A lot of engineers don't have formal computer education. But they make up
for that by putting a lot of effort in learning how to code, so they can catch
up with their peer in one or two years. For example, one programmer was
working as a system admin for 2 years, and before that she studied marketing
in university.

\- Community events are mostly for middle aged people, not students or young
one.

Overall I think it's interesting to work in a Japanese company, there are a
lot to learn from them.

EDIT: Format

~~~
bamboozled
Had the same experiences in western corporations. I think people like the idea
that this is all a Japanese phenomenon.

The majority of “engineers” I’ve worked with (including the best) don’t have
computer science degrees.

------
erric
>The thinking goes, if everyone is involved in the decision-making process,
then when something inevitably goes wrong, there’s no individual person to
blame! Problem solved.

This is _exactly_ how life in the US Govt. IT sectors go.

~~~
mitchell_h
A co-worker gave me a great phrase for this: Fix the blame. I've run into a
bunch of companies that spend far more time fixing the blame, then actually
fixing the problem. Good luck with that business model.

~~~
erric
Most of the 13 year experiences I have there can be summed up as: if it isn’t
broke, fix it until it is.

------
arctice
Bit off-topic but I don't think the "Cultural Differences" dismissals are
unique to Japan; One of my friends from the US will often try to explain
disagreements away with "must be different over there" and other similar
statements. It's endlessly infuriating.

~~~
subway
In the US, that roughly translates to "I'm tired of this conversation; go
away".

~~~
humanrebar
Depends. It could be, "let's agree to disagree and still be congenial."

------
chiph
I've noticed their thing about paper before. Oddly, it was in videos of
Japanese offices during earthquakes, where my concern was that people were
going to get hurt by all the falling binders and documents that were coming
off the bookcases.

------
tecleandor
Funny thing, although the PDCA process is always popularly related to the
Toyota Production System, apparently it was created by Deming, "father of
modern quality control", who divulgated it through Japan.
[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/PDCA](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/PDCA)

~~~
gramie
And before Deming, there was Sarasohn ([http://honoringhomer.net/wp-
content/uploads/2014/08/cringely...](http://honoringhomer.net/wp-
content/uploads/2014/08/cringely.pdf)). In fact, Sarasohn recommended Deming
for the job.

------
GuiA
_Got a design meeting? Print high-quality printouts of the mockup for every
person in the room. Then mark them up with pens, make the changes digitally,
and reprint everything and repeat._

I work in a design studio in Silicon Valley. We do this, and it is extremely
common in any design studio. Essentially, there is simply no digital device
that matches the ease of annotation, the resolution, and the size compared to
printing on a 11x17 piece of paper. You can put them up on the wall for
everybody to see, and have a 10 meter wall covered in comps if that's what you
need... impossible to do with any digital tool.

------
dreit1
You’ve reminded me of the horrors of “keep, problem, try”

Let’s discuss this every week, and then not take any actual action

------
candybar
Almost everything under "real cultural differences" seems to describe culture
as it exists in corporate America as well.

Edit: even some of the other stuff seems to be more about tech vs non-tech, as
opposed to Japan vs US.

------
obblekk
This is excellent. I would love to read one written from the same outsider
(gaijin?) perspective about Silicon Valley.

~~~
jimmaswell
You wouldn't be seen as a "perpetual foreigner" (gaijin) like that, and
American culture is much more lenient on foreigners carrying along their old
customs compared to in Japan. Overall I'd expect an easier time, particularly
in that it's always achievable to be seen as American (more in some areas than
others, especially SV, not to say the US doesn't have any problems with
discrimination), but in Japan a foreigner or even foreign-looking native is
never truly accepted as Japanese, as pointed out here:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16612178](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16612178)

~~~
dahdum
SV is segregated based on class far more than race or ethnicity. Not all of
America is lenient, but more so than any other country I’m aware of (though
Canada seems close), anyone can become accepted as a citizen.

------
hardwaresofton
A little late, but I think one of the most important distinctions between
"otherness" in a place like Tokyo versus a place like the US is the fact that
you can "become" an American in at least one sense if not completely, but you
can basically never be Japanese in almost any sense.

It's always felt that America is the kind of place that once you've put in
your 6 years (I think it's 6 now) on the way to citizenship (or however you
get your citizenship), and are sworn in/become a citizen, the next person that
implies you're un-american you're free to punch in the face (most of the time
not not literally). People may imply it, but the way the country is built/the
culture is structured is at least supposed to imply that once you choose to
join "Team America" so-to-speak, you're a team-member and that's that. America
struggles with the divisions and history between the cultures/races within it,
but I think that's natural, sometimes healthy, and to some degree inevitable
-- there's no way you're going to have lots of cultures mix without
conflict/racism. So if you start with the preconception that friction is a
100% certainty, the question is whether you can see it, and whether the
culture is one where you can freely discuss it or not.

Japan on the other hand, is like 95%+ Japanese last I checked -- there just
isn't enough mixing at any sort of scale to widen the idea of what a Japanese
person is, and much of the segregation is intentional (which is fine by me).
Even Japanese people who go abroad for a long time as children and return are
treated differently, and have to be careful when re-entering society, there
just isn't any hope of melting into the society in any reasonable sense for
someone who is in actuality 100% gaijin (and looks nothing like a japanese
person).

While I haven't lived in the UK, I imagine it's the same, they seem to have a
melting pot culture very similar to the US in this sense, in some ways they
seem even better mixed than the US -- I feel like I see less overt racism
there.

I don't think this phenomenon is limited to Japan of course, just happens to
be on topic right now -- I imagine being a white person in Nigeria or some
other prosperous African country would be a somewhat similar situation as far
as otherness goes.

------
toephu2
>> Do they have X in gaikoku? (you’ll be amazed what people will ask about, I
was once asked if gargles exist in gaikoku)

What are 'gargles'?

~~~
checkroth
I think he's referring to gargling. I've gotten the same question.

I've also gotten "How many colors does a rainbow have in your country?" which
is just beyond me

~~~
205guy
Perception, or rather expression of color is cultural, so that question is
quite astute.

[https://www.sapiens.org/language/color-
perception/](https://www.sapiens.org/language/color-perception/)

Similarly, when my cousin from Ohio asked if the French people I was visiting
in the winter celebrated Chrsitmas, it was ignorance, but a well-intentioned
question none-the-less.

------
bitL
Once you reach certain good level of Japanese mastery, suddenly those phrases
and behaviors you considered very polite and which deeply impressed you, turn
out to be jokes, fun Japanese had with you. Or talk to Japanese escapees to
Europe that work for non-Japanese companies and hence can have some life for
an explanation.

------
maxxxxx
Does Japan still have the crazy working hours they were famous for?

------
gldev
This holds true for Japanese companies outside Japan, my wife was working as a
developer for TOTO Mexico and they had a lot of personnel rotation because of
these differences, mainly the meeting culture, it would often get in the way
of the work and people ended up quitting or getting fired. It was however a
good experience because of the high quality and standards it kept up with the
product.

------
eyrarric
Great novel (and movie) about cultural misunderstandings in Japan from
prolific author Amélie Nothomb.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fear_and_Trembling_(novel)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fear_and_Trembling_\(novel\))

------
Jerry64545
> You are a foreigner

This is a big pro than a con. You can really think and act on your own with
out bothering too much thinking about society pressure. One can act
independently in a manner which is not possible within the society he was
brought up.

------
iamaziz
Although this blog post is about work in Japan and its "foreigner"
consequences. In my opinion, this writing explains exactly why the USA is the
best place for work, and perhaps the most welcoming environment for
foreigners.

------
skizm
Are mechanical keyboards frowned upon in the silent open offices of Japan?

~~~
williamdclt
I would frown upon it in our not-silent-at-all open space, so I suppose yes.
No idea what the reaction would be though!

------
meganibla
Aren’t some of these things actually good? Preserving social harmony. Lean
into it more. It’s a job it doesn’t matter so much. Adapt yourself to these
values and enjoy your time more. Being in another culture you get the chance
to do things their way so try it. Give you a chance to maybe see that the
things you think are so important don’t actually matter. Maybe you can have a
better time and enjoy your life more if you just go along with the way that
everyone does them there.

Power harassment. Stop being such a savior and assuming that your morals are
better. Open your eyes and see what’s good and see how things got together.

~~~
TulliusCicero
You managed to be vastly more condescending than the author.

Every culture has its strengths and weaknesses, noticing and commenting on
them is fine.

------
vogt
Nice article. In my experience, the "Real Cultural Differences" section
sounded like every enterprise company I've interacted with in the US.

------
bamboozled
TL;DR “I moved overseas it was sometimes frustrating, challenging and
different”

Having lived and worked overseas myself in European country none of this
persons experience comes as a surprise honestly.

