
Apple - Think Twice - andygeers
http://www.thenbells.com/2012/11/apple-think-twice.html
======
kevinalexbrown
My perspective here is in no way Apple-specific, but I was reminded of
something quite interesting in this story: if you pass a test and you still
have problems, it probably means the test isn't good enough.

Worse, passing a test doesn't magically change the state of the world and make
these problems disappear. Turning to the customer and explaining, "there is no
problem because you passed the test" does not alter the customer's experience
at all: the ghosting still exists.

This has nothing to do with whether or not Apple was smart to behave this way,
or what the tolerances should be - I don't have a dog in this fight. Instead,
I just wanted to highlight something I have to be reminded of from time to
time, in different contexts: no one cares whether you think their problem is
real, they care whether the problem still exists for them.

Obvious point: This goes for more than just computer products.

~~~
j-b
Don't forget the old adage that reality is 90% perception. If your customers
"think" they have a problem, that in itself is an issue that needs to be dealt
with. My customers don't care if their system issues are actually a problem in
my software or not. "Not a problem" doesn't work if you want to keep paying
customers around.

~~~
personlurking
This also works in personal relationships. If your SO feels hurt by something
and you say "oh, grow up!", that doesn't help, even if you think some 'tough
love' was needed/adequate. You have to deal with her as someone who is feeling
hurt and until she perceives that you understand her, you'll just be sweeping
the issue under the rug. I suppose this can be classified as listening but not
really hearing.

~~~
koide
On the other hand, sometimes tough love is indeed the adequate response and
makes the SO to notice (s)he's being childish. Especially if said SO is
generally mature enough to notice.

~~~
ak39
I disagree.

The reason why we are often too eager to dismiss is because kindness takes
effort. Empathy, and certainly sympathy, is hard work. We get lazy, we become
exhausted and our reactions become snappy. Almost always the "dry your eyes"
advice is inappropriate and insensitive. And it never really achieves its
intended objective.

I'm not saying we should all participate in crying orgies whenever someone
shows signs of weakness (though, as I've aged, I think _that_ is better than
showing a cold shoulder) or that we readily invest in "idiot compassion". What
I'm saying is: we are all trapped in this existential reality together and we
all need to show kindness with all forms of suffering. Being cruel to be kind
as a philanthropic philosophy has never worked (for me).

Watch this: <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u5um8QWWRvo> (RSA Animate on
"Smile or Die" a talk by Barbara Ehrenreich)

~~~
koide
Note that I didn't say you should always be tough. Of course that being kind
and compassionate is the right answer most of the time.

It's just that sometimes a figurative slap is the right thing the sufferer
needs to wake up from the suffering and realize there's no actual need to
suffer like that.

It's all very personal and context dependent and, most importantly, it should
never be done in anger.

------
msy
Revision A Apple projects have had issues for as long as Apple has been making
products.

Second gen Macbook Air's had Logic board issues, 2007 era RevA Macbook Pros
had video card issues, dodgy graphics cards on the early Mac Pros, the iPhone4
antenna, the list is endless. Often it's taken years for the issues to be
resolved and Apple to pay for repairs, if at all.

It's simple, if you want the shiniest tech, buy whatever Apple is selling
today. If you want reliable hardware, wait for the first revision when the
kinks have been worked out. That way we don't all get spammed with the
histronics of endless bloggers who think this is a new phenomenon.

~~~
ssmoot
Just pointing out that for anyone I've ever met, the antennagate was just
media sites drumming up page-views.

I never had an issue, and despite everyone at my office having iPhone4s and
4Ss, the only time any of us were ever able to affect antenna-strength was
having a wet hand, and then purposefully applying a lot of pressure to attempt
to attenuate the case.

It could be the signal-strength display "fix" was hiding issues (actually,
this is almost certainly the case), but in practice, it was never an issue,
and the 4 had consistently better signal than any other device I've owned,
including a GalaxyS2 since the iPhones could get a good enough signal in
elevators that previous phones (both iPhone and Android) didn't.

And despite being the same basic design AFAICT, never seen a mention of the
issue with the iPhone5.

~~~
jscheel
I could consistently re-create antennagate on my iphone 4 every single time I
"held it wrong." I was forced to completely change the way I help my phone,
permanently.

~~~
dusing
You could have returned the phone, you were not forced to do anything.

~~~
tatsuke95
Typical exchange:

Person A: Apple is amazing. Antenna-gate was mass media nonsense.

Person B: I, personally, had major problems with the antenna.

Person C: Why don't you just get rid of your phone then? No one told you to
buy one.

Or, I can demand the quality and service I expect from a premium product.
What's wrong with that?

~~~
clarky07
If this makes you think it's not a premium product, or the best out there, go
get a different product. What's so wrong with that? I want a pony, but dammit
Apple doesn't offer ponies. Saying "I WANT A PONY FROM APPLE NOW" isn't going
to make it so. Quit bitching and take your business elsewhere. If you happen
to think the iPhone is still the best even with this problem, then get a case
or hold the phone differently.

~~~
freehunter
I agree with Politician A on every point except one. So since we have that one
disagreement, I'm going to vote for politician B instead, with whom I disagree
on every issue but this one.

One issue doesn't mean you have to hate the phone as a whole, or stop using
it. The more acceptable response is to ask that the issue be fixed. Just
because an iPhone has signal issues that are inconvenient doesn't mean it's
not the phone that this person likes better than the others.

~~~
clarky07
It's a problem with the phone. Apple offered a free solution, put a case on
it. If you don't like that solution, what do you want them to do about it? Re-
engineer the phone just for you and give you a replacement? It's not like this
was a 1-off problem, like Joe's phone was defective so we replace Joe's phone.
EVERY phone was made the same with this problem. You can't just "fix it" for
Joe. It isn't a matter of customer service where they can just fix the issue.

~~~
freehunter
You're missing the point. Just because there's one problem with the iPhone, no
matter how many people it affects, doesn't mean it's automatically a bad
choice if every other feature is what you're looking for in a smartphone. If
the antenna makes a phone 90/100 but every other phone is still at best
80/100, does switching platforms make sense? It's still a valid issue to
complain about, but not enough to make the decision to abandon the platform
for some people.

The point is, the iPhone is what these customers were looking for. They still
like it enough to keep it, and they like it enough to complain when there are
quality issues rather than switch.

~~~
clarky07
I think you're missing my point. What do you want Apple to do about it? They
gave everyone a free case with which it works fine. It wasn't a quality issue,
it was a design issue. These are different things. No amount of QA will fix a
design issue.

What possible other response from a customer service perspective could you
want here?

------
meaty
I wouldn't buy another Apple product either. Between a MacBook Pro which
caught fire, an AirPort which melted, an iMac which the backlight went on and
a MacBook which had to go back 4 times (!) due to logic board problems, it
scares the shit out of me parting with that sort of cash and actually
depending on it. The muppets at the "genius bar" (retard shelf as we call it
now) aren't exactly helpful and usher you away so other people don't hear
about it as well.

I now buy OLD Lenovo machines (T61 series) and chuck Debian on them. I buy two
at a time and stick a (Samsung) SSD in them for less than half the cost of an
MBP. One lives in the cupboard as a backup. I have a few spare batteries
(9-cell and Ultrabay) sitting around as well.

Also, I find it objectionable purchasing anything that doesn't have a way of
isolating the power either i.e. removing the battery. One short on a LiPoly
pack and your tech gadget turns neatly into an incendiary device, which is
what happened to my 2010 MBP. It nearly burned my house down.

I genuinely don't get all these people who think they are soundly engineered.
They are expensive trinkets with no engineering applied past appearance.

~~~
astrodust
Although you might have requirements that aren't met by Apple's products, such
as wanting a removable battery, to call them "expensive trinkets" with "no
engineering" is absurd.

Apple's work on the unibody case is but one example of how they're pushing
manufacturing technology as far as it can go today. Other vendors are content
to stamp out the same old plastic clamshell, to fit in the same old
motherboard and optical drive, whatever's cheapest and quickest.

With the exception of Sony and HP, few companies even _try_ to do what Apple's
doing.

~~~
meaty
Ahh yes the unibody which is basically a fucking big short circuit, hence why
mine caught fire.

It's engineering, but it's not SOUND ENGINEERING.

I stand by my expensive trinket comment.

Buy a Lenovo T-series and you'll understand.

~~~
astrodust
You're essentially saying that any computer with a metal case, or extensive
metal shielding inside could suffer the same problem. HP makes a number of
metal laptops, for instance, in an effort to make them more recyclable, the
same reasoning behind Apple's materials decision.

Why would I buy a Lenovo T-series? It looks virtually indistinguishable from
any laptop made in the late 1990s and still has that absurd red joystick. I
hope they've improved the trackpad because those were nearly unusable before.

I know there's Lenovo fans, ThinkPad fanatics, but they look like junk and
feel even crappier. The new Dell Ubuntu laptop is the only thing I can think
of as a reasonable alternative to what Apple's doing.

~~~
w1ntermute
> Why would I buy a Lenovo T-series? It looks virtually indistinguishable from
> any laptop made in the late 1990s and still has that absurd red joystick.

And with that statement you just exposed how ignorant you really are. The
TrackPoint is far superior to any trackpad out there. In fact, I don't even
use a mouse with my desktop - I have a USB version of the ThinkPad
keyboard[0]. With the TrackPoint, you can use the mouse without ever moving
your hand from the home position on the keyboard. It's more efficient than a
mouse, and much, _much_ more efficient than a trackpad.

And instead of the stupid "two-finger scrolling" you see on Macs these days,
you can hold the middle mouse button and push up or down with the TrackPoint
to scroll infinitely.

And the reason why the ThinkPad design has stayed the same since the 90s is
because ThinkPad users aren't chasing after the latest shiny bauble - they
want a device on which they can get their work done. The ThinkPad design is
timeless in that it gets out of your way so that you can focus on what is
important.

Apple has to make sure they regularly have shiny new product designs to keep
their customer base happy because their customers are more interested in looks
than functionality.

> I know there's Lenovo fans, ThinkPad fanatics, but they look like junk and
> feel even crappier.

You really need to stop drinking the Apple Kool-aid and realize that there are
far superior laptops to the MacBooks.

0: <http://i.imgur.com/oVKgB.jpg>

~~~
dpark
You come across as an Apple hater here. You're not making objective arguments
or even providing personal anecdotes. You're just pushing your personal
opinion as fact.

> _And with that statement you just exposed how ignorant you really are. The
> TrackPoint is far superior to any trackpad out there._

When you call someone ignorant, you should typically follow up with a factual
statement and not just your personal opinion. In my experience, the TrackPoint
is tedious and awkward. Good for you if you like it, but everyone else in the
world isn't "ignorant" for having a different opinion.

> _It's more efficient than a mouse, and much, much more efficient than a
> trackpad._

Not in my experience, but a bigger issue is that the TrackPoint is abstracted
further, which makes it less intuitive. If touching something on the screen
directly is a first-level abstraction, introducing a mouse or trackpad is a
second-level abstraction, because your motions are moving a proxy (the cursor)
around on screen. The TrackPoint is a third-level abstraction, because you're
using a joystick to move the proxy, so your motions are no longer paralleled
on the screen (i.e. the cursor moves but you didn't actually move the
TrackPoint).

> _And the reason why the ThinkPad design has stayed the same since the 90s is
> because ThinkPad users aren't chasing after the latest shiny bauble - they
> want a device on which they can get their work done. The ThinkPad design is
> timeless in that it gets out of your way so that you can focus on what is
> important. Apple has to make sure they regularly have shiny new product
> designs to keep their customer base happy because their customers are more
> interested in looks than functionality._

This is just unadulterated Apple hate combined with some vacuous claims. This
doesn't convince anyone that you're correct. It just makes you sound petty and
bitter.

~~~
w1ntermute
> When you call someone ignorant, you should typically follow up with a
> factual statement and not just your personal opinion.

Funny, this is what I would call "personal opinion":

> the TrackPoint is tedious and awkward

And this is what I would call a "factual statement":

> It's a simple matter of efficiency. When using a trackpad, you have to move
> your hand off of the keyboard and down several inches. When using the
> TrackPoint, you do not - the TrackPoint is accessible with your index finger
> from the keyboard's home row. All 3 mouse buttons are accessible with your
> thumbs while your fingers rest on the home row.

> When using a trackpad to scroll, you have to keep lifting your hand off the
> trackpad and moving it back to the other side of the trackpad to continue
> scrolling. With the TrackPoint, you just hold down the middle mouse button
> and push the TrackPoint in the direction you want to go, for as long as you
> want. How is this even comparable?

I would say that I have provided a much more factual basis for my argument
than your explanation that it's "tedious and awkward".

> The TrackPoint is a third-level abstraction, because you're using a joystick
> to move the proxy, so your motions are no longer paralleled on the screen
> (i.e. the cursor moves but you didn't actually move the TrackPoint).

The fact that the TrackPoint doesn't move is an _advantage_ , not a
disadvantage. It allows you to scroll infinitely, never move your hand from
the home row, etc.

Getting used to the TrackPoint is just a matter of time (a few days for me),
but having to move your hands a lot when using a trackpad or mouse will
_never_ change - it's physical reality.

And if it's so difficult to use a joystick to control things, how is it that
millions of people are able to play console video games without any problem?
Many of the people who complain about the TrackPoint are the same people who
play Wii, 360, or PS3 games that make extensive use of joysticks.

> This is just unadulterated Apple hate combined with some vacuous claims.
> This doesn't convince anyone that you're correct. It just makes you sound
> petty and bitter.

I'm sorry you feel that way, but I find no reason to return your ad hominem
attack on me, so whatever.

~~~
dpark
> _Funny, this is what I would call "personal opinion"_

Funny, I didn't call you "ignorant" right before I posted my opinion. I also
made it clear that I was posting my personal experience (hence the term "my
experience") and not making some blanket claim.

> _And this is what I would call a "factual statement"_

Nope. It's more efficient for you, perhaps. It is considerably less efficient
for someone who finds it awkward. Moving my hand to the trackpad takes less
than a second. I don't consider that a high cost.

If you find yourself in a type-mouse-type-mouse loop that repeats so rapidly
that moving your hand to the trackpad is actually a significant cost, then the
UI you're using is terrible. Or else you need to learn to use the tab key for
switching between fields, which is faster than either the trackpad or the
trackpoint.

As for your scrolling example, you're missing a couple of important details.
First, modern trackpads support inertial scrolling, which means you can
"flick" and then stop the scrolling when you get to the point you want. This
is far faster than the trackpoint for long-distance scrolling. Second, the
trackpad also supports more fine-grained speed control in general. The
trackpoint has a very small range of motion, which means you're trading off
speed and accuracy. The large surface of a modern trackpad gives both
simultaneously. I can mouse from corner to corner on screen multiple times per
second with a trackpad. I can also get extremely fine-grained control. I
seriously doubt your trackpoint can match both the speed and accuracy (though
you can presumably match one of them). This likely more than offsets the "home
row advantage". And even if you could match the speed and accuracy from a
hardware standpoint, you'd be asking for either extremely fine inputs from the
finger (for control), or extremely firm inputs (for speed), both of which
would be very suboptimal in terms of ease of use and comfort.

> _The fact that the TrackPoint doesn't move is an advantage, not a
> disadvantage. It allows you to scroll infinitely, never move your hand from
> the home row, etc._

No, it's a tradeoff. If you value keeping your hands on the home row, then it
might be an advantage for you. I value the intuitive interaction of the
trackpad far more.

> _Getting used to the TrackPoint is just a matter of time (a few days for
> me), but having to move your hands a lot when using a trackpad or mouse will
> never change - it's physical reality._

Sure. You can get used to just about anything. Whether there's value in doing
so is a different question. For most people, the answer appears to be _no_ ,
given the low popularity of the trackpoint. The tradeoff between speed and
accuracy in the trackpoint will also never change. That's physical reality,
too.

> _And if it's so difficult to use a joystick to control things, how is it
> that millions of people are able to play console video games without any
> problem? Many of the people who complain about the TrackPoint are the same
> people who play Wii, 360, or PS3 games that make extensive use of
> joysticks._

This would be a more compelling argument if interacting with game menus via
joystick weren't so annoying (especially if the game gives you a "cursor" to
move with said joystick). A joystick is a very useful input method for
gameplay because "keep moving in this direction" is a common need there. It's
frustrating for traditional interfaces because "keep moving in this direction"
is not common. "Jump to this, now this, now this" is far more common.

> _I'm sorry you feel that way, but I find no reason to return your ad hominem
> attack on me, so whatever._

It's a little late to reach for the high road when you start by calling
someone ignorant for holding a different opinion, and then end by claiming
that Apple users are "chasing after the latest shiny bauble". Also, nothing I
posted is actually an _ad hominem_ attack, but if it makes you feel better to
think so, please continue.

------
michael_miller
I can't help but think that the majority of comments here are the loud
minority. Apple's products have had faults, I'll be the first to admit. But do
we really think that even 5% of Apple's millions of customers are having
issues with their purchases? If that were the case, we'd see class action
lawsuits against the company, the NYTimes/WSJ covering Apple's shoddy
manufacturing processes, and Apple's reputation taking an enormous hit. I've
seen none of the above. To the contrary, articles covering Apple's
manufacturing process, while critical of labor, seem to show a very well-
managed ship, with little tolerance for errors or defects.

I'm also taken aback by the harsh tone of the comments:

"Ahh yes the unibody which is basically a fucking big short circuit, hence why
mine caught fire."

"Fuck everything about this."

"it scares the shit out of me parting with that sort of cash and actually
depending on it"

It's a little disappointing to see these hyperbolic comments on a site I
normally associate with an educated, smart, logically-thinking group of
people.

~~~
tatsuke95
> _"It's a little disappointing to see these hyperbolic comments on a site I
> normally associate with an educated, smart, logically-thinking group of
> people."_

What's _really_ disappointing is that there are educated, smart, logically-
thinking people who refuse to believe that there is any hype behind the
quality and customer service of Apple. Both are okay, but not exceptional.

I'm on my second MBA. I had the 2010 model, then traded it in for the 2011.
The first model was good; never had a problem, but only owned it for a year.
This latest version is having trackpad issues: I use real click, not tap-to-
click. But my trackpad has become so sensitive to pressure that you can hardly
rest your finger on the pad without a click registering. When doing anything
more than web-browsing, it's nearly unusable, requiring me to carry a mouse
around.

Now this sucks, because to me the Apple trackpad is the biggest reason for
owning one of their laptops. I have Apple Care, but they seem to think that
everything is fine. So I'm out of luck...until I get a new laptop. The next
one _can't_ be an Apple.

As the author writes, it's hard to understand being told you have no issue,
when there is _clearly_ a problem. And this tarnishes Apple's reputation for
HIGH quality and GREAT customer service.

~~~
greedo
All companies have hype; entire departments devoted to marketing. And of
course there are people who don't want to see flaws in items they purchase;
this isn't limited to Apple, as much as its critics want to espouse the idea
of a Reality Distortion field. Its a known psychological phenomena that people
are less critical of things they have a financial investment in.

But it gets tiresome when HN has an article that shows one users poor
experience, and then the boo-birds fly down with their cries of evil Apple.
I'm sorry the gent had a poor experience, and Apple should fix/replace the
screen or MBP itself.

------
burriko
Interesting. I've had the exact same problem, and yet what happened to me was
the best customer service I've ever experienced.

I had bought a 15" retina MBP at launch, but only noticed the ghosting last
month. After booking an appointment with a 'genius' online I arrived ready to
argue my case. What actually happened was that the 'genius' agreed with me
straight away that the ghosting was intolerable, and without doing any testing
besides what I'd shown him recommended that they replace the screen. I left my
MBP at the Apple Store and 3 hours later received a phone call to say that the
repair had been completed and my machine was ready for collection.

I don't think there's another computer supplier that:-

A. I could book an appointment online to get my laptop looked at the same day.

B. Actually has a local store with support staff.

C. Could carry out the repair at said store, the very same day.

~~~
ericabiz
Both Dell and Lenovo offer on-site service where a tech comes to you. It's an
upgrade from their "standard" warranty service, but totally worth the extra $,
especially if you rely on your computer.

In addition, they both have "accidental damage" with some of the higher-end
warranties, so they'll cover you e.g. if you spill soda in your laptop.

More info:

Lenovo: [http://www.lenovo.com/services_warranty/US/en/lenovo-
warrant...](http://www.lenovo.com/services_warranty/US/en/lenovo-
warranty.html)

Dell:
[http://www.dell.com/content/topics/segtopic.aspx/services/se...](http://www.dell.com/content/topics/segtopic.aspx/services/services_warranty_glossary?c=us&l=en&cs=04)

~~~
madeofchalk
For what it's worth, Apple also offers on-site with AppleCare.

And then in the cases for certain quality programs, such as the iMac hard
drive replacement [1], they will do on-site even if you don't have AppleCare
and/or are out of your 1 year warranty.

[1]: <http://www.apple.com/au/support/imac-harddrive/>

------
arrrg
Fuck everything about this. I had two screen replaced, luckily before Apple
came up with this idiotic test. On the second replacement I lucked out and got
a Samsung screen that doesn’t have the issue. But that they still have not
solved that problem that is plain as day fucking sucks! What is wrong with
those idiots?! Why do they do stuff like that? It makes my blood boil.

Apple, fuck you! Why do you do this to your customers? Why do you torture them
like that? Still!

I really believed that by now you would have solved that problem. After I got
my Samsung screen I honestly stopped reading the forums because it brought
down my mood. To know hear – months later – that they still haven’t solved the
issue in any real way makes me just angry and sad.

This is not excusable. Excuses about this being a first gen product are
obviously not valid. If you can’t sell it in a satisfactory manner, you have
to give your customers their money back (or give them Samsung screen which
are, unlike LG screens, not affected by the issue).

~~~
michael_miller
With all due respect, you have to keep in mind that Apple is producing
millions of units and, for its own sake, can't be beholden to a single
supplier. If they were, that supplier would have enormous leverage ("pay us
$5b now, or we will stop shipping you screens for your flagship laptop.").
Aside from that, they'd also be susceptible to production issues - imagine if
Samsung's factory had a fire/flood/hurricane and had to stop production.
Supply chain management at Apple's scale is unbelievably hard. It's certainly
not excusable for the issues you're encountering, but from what I've seen /
heard, Apple has a top notch supply chain management team pretty much
unrivaled by any other company.

I'm sure Apple would be happy to refund you. If the Apple store won't help,
try shooting an email to tcook@.

~~~
Breakthrough
You have absolutely no concept of the difference between "leverage" and
"extortion", the latter of which is exactly what you described. Last I
checked, not only is extorting your customers bad for business, it's probably
illegal. That being said, I'm going to dare throw an anti-Apple comment in
here: after all the BS Apple's pulled in the past few years, I'm sure most
people in the world wouldn't blink twice if Samsung _did_ try to pull
something like that (how would you feel if one of your clients tried to sue
you?). Fortunately, I think Samsung is smart enough to __not __pull a stunt
like that.

And for what it's worth - _"[...] Supply chain management at Apple's scale is
unbelievably hard."_ How do you think Samsung feels?

~~~
sbuk
The BS? Samsung copied their work...

~~~
sbuk
I'm sorry, but down opting this doesn't change the facts. Neither does
portraying Samsung as an entirely innocent and hard-done-by party. They
screwed their own pooch.

------
pirateking
Had this happen to my Retina MacBook Pro too. Went to the Apple store and
after some pleading was able to get them to place an order for a new one. Two
weeks of glazing over staring at ghosts later I go to pick it up. They
upgraded the replacement to the largest size SSD for free! It was all down
hill after that.

I had to transfer my data from the lemon. The Geniuses on staff were clearly
unfamiliar with some of the quirks of Migration Assistant. I offered to do the
migration myself if they gave me a Thunderbolt cable. That ends up forcing me
to spend another hour in the store, which of course I use to check for signs
of ghosting on the new machine.

I run the following command:

    
    
      ioreg -lw0 | grep \"EDID\" | sed "/[^<]*</s///" | xxd -p -r | strings -6
    

Like the lemon, the new one is an LG panel as well. Word on the forums is that
only the LG panels have the ghosting issue. I ask the Genius if I can swap
once more before leaving the store. He says no. I head home anxiously, hoping
my screen is pure.

Nope. While it is still one of the best computers I have ever used, it is just
unacceptable to be gambling $4000 for hardware I rely on. I will be trying for
another exchange soon because there is really no other option, but the
standards for "it just works" have noticeably slipped across the company.

~~~
TheCapn
I don't want this question to sound loaded and threaded with negative
connotations for/against apple but why would you label the computer as "one of
the best I have ever used" if one of the primary interfaces to the user is
repeatedly faulty?

I'm not a Mac user. My work and personal desires drive me towards
Windows/Linux and I would have foregone any manufacturer that pulled that type
of behavior on me (as I have with numerous retailers already). Sort of a "fool
me once" type scenario as I see it.

~~~
Nikaido
> I don't want this question to sound loaded and threaded with negative
> connotations for/against apple but why would you label the computer as "one
> of the best I have ever used" if one of the primary interfaces to the user
> is repeatedly faulty?

Because mac users tend to put the weight and thinness of the machine over
anything else and since the rMBP is the thinnest and lightest 15" laptop it
makes it the "best". Hell, Apple is doing the "thin/small and light" thing
even with their "desktop" machines like the iMac and Mac Mini.

Mac and PC users just have different set of priorities. I used to own macs but
I fully went back to the PC because being able to handle repairs myself in a
timely manner is much more important than the niceties of OS X for me,
particularly with desktop machines. The mac mini is not good enough for me,
and the iMac is exactly what I don't want, if anything fails in the computer I
want to be able to replace the part in five minutes and be done with it. That
and the fact that the screen tends to outlive my computers in usefulness, I
replace them less often than the parts of my desktop PC so buying a computer
attached to the screen feels offensive to me.

The Mac Pro could've been an alternative but.. 2600 euros for a computer that
is outdated in every single way out of the box is not attractive. Its GPU used
to be a mid-range gamer card, used to, because it's not even mid-range in
2012, it's low end. If you build your own computer a GPU with that kind of
performance will cost about ~100 to 150 euros, which is not acceptable for a
2600 eur computer. The rest (cpu, ram) is decent but still doesn't really
warrant the price tag. It was good when it first launched.. that's about it.

------
kmfrk
Antenna causing problems? "You're holding it wrong."

Camera artifacts? "You're holding it wrong." [1]

Burn-in? "Does not compute."

Scruffing on the iPhone 5 [2]? People don't even bother to write about it.
Same for the poor performance on Retina devices. Unless you're someone like
Anandtech who are so meticulous many don't bother to read the fint print.

Maybe it's time we got some Apple-specific buyer's guides from people who
don't grade on a curve. I still want to buy Apple products (not first-edition
versions, though), but I want to know what I'm in for.

[1]: [http://gizmodo.com/5947972/apple-acknowledges-
iphone-5-camer...](http://gizmodo.com/5947972/apple-acknowledges-
iphone-5-camera-problem-says-youre-holding-it-wrong)

[2]: [http://blogs.wsj.com/digits/2012/10/17/hon-hais-
explanation-...](http://blogs.wsj.com/digits/2012/10/17/hon-hais-explanation-
for-iphone-5-shortage/)

~~~
astrodust
Why is it people get all frothing at the mouth angry about Apple's mistakes
when they just shrug indifferently the mis-steps of other companies?

I haven't heard people losing their shit because their $4,000 Sony laptop
webcam isn't as amazing as Sony promised.

~~~
mmagin
Because they've been told that they're paying a premium for Apple products
because they'll have a better experience.

~~~
kmfrk
In other words: Apple is held to a higher standard. (Or Apple purport to hold
themselves to a higher standard.)

------
yardie
> As a loyal customer of apple for almost 11 years (iMac G4) my loyalty has
> been shaken.

I really hate bloggers that do shit like this. Apple isn't an airline so
bringing up your Apple mileage isn't helping. Really, 11 years and this one
problem shakes your loyalty? Not their DRM, custom screws, custom cables,
EOLing still powerful Macbooks, making free services paid (iTools), or the
$1000 price bump when they introduced the G5 towers.

I've been an Apple user for years (20+) and I have no loyalty to them
whatsoever. Their products work for me and as long as they continue to work
I'll continue to buy them. Also, a real Apple user would know to never buy a
new version of their products. v1 is usually full of design and technical
flaws. And each genius is different, keep asking or try another store until
you get the satisfaction you demand. Apple Geniuses are given a surprising
amount of latitude (more than most tech retail) so if you can convince just
one it's a problem than for Apple it's a problem.

~~~
Retric
The goal is to show you don't already have a problem with the company in
question. So, the issue must be really annoying.

~~~
yardie
The issue is annoying to him because he should have known better. Apple always
does A/B testing on their v1 products. Early MB Airs came with SSDs from 2
different suppliers, iPhone 3G came with glass from Corning and a few other
suppliers. He has the write to complain and I hope he gets a solution, but the
writing is just so damn...smug.

------
keeran
I had a similar dance with Apple tech staff. I took in a 27" iMac which had a
faulty video card fan which made a horrible high pitched whine at low
brightness settings.

First visit they couldn't hear it (in loud store environment..), I was sent
home. Second visit they agreed to take it in for testing - returned with a
chipped display, scratched glass and a report that the problem didn't exist.

Finally gave up with them and called Apple USA direct (from UK), complained to
anyone who would listen. Was advised to take into a 3rd party repair supplier
to confirm the problem existed. I went in with an audio spectrometer to
visualise the problem, had a new iMac shipped the next day.

It's hard to accept that they're no longer the specialist hardware supplier
who treats every customer exceptionally well. Now we're just being farmed like
any customer.

Going hackintosh/linux for all future machines.

~~~
vacri
_It's hard to accept that they're no longer the specialist hardware supplier
who treats every customer exceptionally well. Now we're just being farmed like
any customer._

Why is this surprising? This is what you generally have to do when servicing
the general public - Apple is no longer the niche specialist, but the gorilla.

------
enraged_camel
Apple haters have really come out of the woodwork today.

The fact of the matter is that _every_ first-gen product has had and will have
issues regardless of the manufacturer. Apple just gets a lot of flak because
they manufacture some of the best products out there and are very vocal about
it. So the moment they make a slip, they get stoned by haters who were waiting
in ambush.

I, too, have had some bad experiences with a few Apple products I've owned. My
first iPad had two dead pixels, and my first MBA had a keyboard key not work
intermittently. The staff at the Apple Store next to my campus were absolute
retards about both issues. Instead of writing an angry blog post about it, you
know what I did? I took my defective items to another Apple store, where they
got fixed/replaced immediately.

Then again, I'm a practical person and am generally more interested in getting
shit done. I understand some people are more interested in raising a ruckus
for attention.

~~~
gfodor
The post has nothing to do with the fact that the screen was broken. Read it
again.

------
noonespecial
I thought Apple got this concept but PR is more than just spinning half-truths
on TV to make the company look good. The highest calling of PR is the ability
to say "it will cost more than we made selling this thing to fix it, but we
need to do it anyway."

Companies that care about their reputations have guys like that head their PR
departments and listen to them when they say this.

Frankly, you expect this kind of behavior from companies that are costing on
autopilot with no one willing to take responsibility for anything at the helm.
It is surprising to see it from Apple.

------
kalleboo
I have a Retina MacBook Pro with the same issue. It has really soured me to
Macs (which I've used literally all my life). You know if this has happened to
one of their more high-profile products (one that begins with an "i" and fits
in your hand), it wouldn't fly. But Apple haven't had much pride in their Macs
for years now, and have let really bad design flaws like this go unfixed.

~~~
ohwp
Sometimes you can fix it yourself by running an animation with only 3 frames:
one red, one green and one blue. Let it run all night if possible. It once
fixed my Dell monitor with (as they called it) "lazy pixels".

~~~
agscala
I thought that running that animation will fix stuck pixels, not cure
ghosting.

------
adrianm
My wife and I both own retina Macbook Pros and, luck would have it, I got one
with a Samsung display and she got one with an LG display which exhibits the
ghosting issue. She had mentioned it to me in passing before, but after
reading this post I talked to her about it again and low and behold, the
ghosting effect was very visible in her open Emacs buffers!

So, irrationally empowered with the spirit of a wronged consumer thanks to
this post, I immediately called Apple up and told them the issue.

They're sending a box in the mail next day for us to send the laptop in for a
screen replacement, free of charge of course because it's under warranty.

All in all, it was a pretty painless customer service experience. I think it
took all of five minutes, no exaggeration. There weren't really any questions
asked, aside from "Where do you want us to send the box?". We've already
ordered a temporary replacement computer for her while it's out for repair so
she won't miss out on any work.

------
strooltz
I bought the Macbook Pro retina back over the summer and was a little upset
when a small dead pixel cluster appeared on the display after about a month of
use.

I brought it back to the apple store (i did not purchase applecare). I was
told that this was happening in about 1 our of every 40 MBP retinas and they
happily replaced the display in less than 24 hours.

I'm not implying that my situation is "unique/new/ particularly note-worthy"
but it is just as antidotal as yours and ended with a positive outcome.

~~~
xmpir
our designer had the same problem: after 2 weeks of usage some dead pixels
appeared right in the middle of the retina display. unfortunatly in austria we
don't have a apple store - just resellers. he was told that he should try to
send it back but that there is a tolerance of pixels that are allowed to be
dead, so actually those few dead pixels are tolerable. he decided to send it
back anyway, i wonder what will happen...

------
zackmorris
I was an Apple certified repair technician for three years until 2010 and the
ghosting issue is very real, I saw it on several displays. The best thing is
to just keep calling them/going to an Apple store until they fix it for free.
I agree that their customer service could use some work in this department.

------
whazzmaster
My four-month-old rMBP's screen failed last week and now I'm staring at
replacing it out-of-pocket, or never using it as a portable machine again and
leaving it hooked up to an external monitor. I'm so unhappy with Apple right
now.

EDIT: I couldn't find the default warranty (sans AppleCare) and based this
comment off of other similar situations (including OP). I found out this
morning that it IS COVERED by the default warranty, so I'm not unhappy
anymore. This is my bad.

~~~
teraflop
I thought MacBooks came with a one-year warranty. Does it not cover the
display or something?

~~~
robin_reala
2 years in Europe.

~~~
iaskwhy
Not in the UK though.

~~~
stuartmemo
UK is no different from the rest of Europe. 2 years - Apple just don't make it
obvious.

<http://www.apple.com/uk/legal/statutory-warranty/>

See also: <http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-19788361>

------
chasing
I have the same issue on my rMBP, and while I wish it didn't happen, I still
quite like the laptop. It's not a constant thing and it hasn't interfered at
all with my ability to see what's supposed to be on the screen.

------
robomartin
As this article pertains to screen issues how about we discuss this a little
bit rather than engaging in senseless rants?

The "ghosting" issue the article highlights is a known problem with certain
types of LCD screens. With a caveat I'll say that LG LCD panels are known for
these kinds of issues much more so than Samsung's. The caveat is that ALL OEM
LCD manufacturers have issues, all of them.

The other very important idea to understand is that Apple is just another OEM
customer. Yes, they are huge. And, yes, they get stuff made to their specs.
But, no, they can't alter the laws of physics or magically change the current
state of the art. The same is true of the warts and issues in the various
technologies they use.

For example, someone mentioned Apple notebooks flaming. Well, I fly radio
controlled planes and helicopters. They use LiPo battery packs. And you can
bet they are stored in a metal container within fireproof bags and away from
combustibles. Yes, LiPo battery cells can self-combust. This is not a secret.
This is one reason I don't own any laptops with non-removable LiPo packs.

How common are LiPo fires? How easy are they to start?

They are very rare. If you go on YouTube you'd think that every other home is
going up in flames due to LiPo fires. Not so. I actually blew-up a LiPo pack
on purpose just to see what it would take and how big the fire might be. It
actually took a lot for this three cell pack to go.

Is Apple at fault for adopting a technology that has a minuscule probability
of causing a fire? I'll leave that for someone else to answer. I am not really
bothered by it. That said, I made my informed choice and simply don't buy
laptops with non-removable LiPo packs.

Back to displays.

LG can have ghosting or image retention problems. Fire-up photoshop and make a
pattern of black and white lines one pixel wide. Try horizontal and vertical
arrangements. Try flashing that pattern on an off at different rates. This can
trigger the issue depending on the underlying LCD technology. Are these tests
fair? Not sure.

Also, keep in mind that the test Apple is administering might come from the
OEM panel manufacturer. In other words, this is what the manufacturer agreed
to deliver to Apple as a performance guarantee.

LG also has had some serious display discoloration issues. The early 23 inch
aluminum Cinema display had a batch of horribly pink/magenta panels. Again, LG
quality control problems.

Samsung has had discoloration problems but they tend to be pretty good about
image retention issues.

An interesting fact is that an LCD pixel is able to retain a "charge" --if you
will-- for a very long time. I've seen an LCD panel hold a full-color image
for over a day after power was removed. This panel had been modified for this
particular experiment in that all drive electronics were removed very quickly
after power was removed. In other words, it was just a piece of "glass"
sitting in front of a separately-powered light source. Very interesting stuff.

I am not making excuses for Apple. If you pay that much for a laptop you want
it to be perfect. I get it. I also get that it just won't happen. Too many
moving parts.

Here's a reality of consumer product engineering today:

Companies (not just Apple, everyone) have to move very quickly. Nobody is
going to have the time to test all corner cases for every component they use.
Even if they did, they can't account for all corner cases. And, if you run a
supply and manufacturing pipeline like Apple's, by the time the components
arrive at the factory there's almost nothing you can do about it. So, yes,
100K "defective" displays might go out the door in the blink of an eye. And,
another 100K might go out before you can even start to do anything about it.
Component suppliers can shaft you and, frankly, the Korean LCD manufacturers
are famous for this. Just talk to anyone in the OEM display business, it's
brutal.

Given that, I can only imagine that at some level it becomes a carefully
considered financial decision. I hate to say it, but it isn't any different
from a car manufacturer discovering that 0.01% of break pedals might be
defective. They probably have a meeting with the lawyers and the accountants,
review their insurance and determine what course of action to take. Sometimes
that's the reality of business.

I am not saying that this is what Apple is doing. I am just speaking in terms
of general scenarios. I would suggest that when dealing with a large
organization like Apple patience and persistence is the key. Keep at it. I
think Apple, of all companies, still cares a lot. It might be harder today due
to the sheer scale of the company, but if you don't loose faith you might just
get to the right person and have your problem handled.

~~~
aespinoza
So what is the point of paying the Apple premium if they are just the same as
everybody else ?

I think the fact that it is possible, it should not be the norm. As you can
see in the article, the problem is not that he got a defective Monitor, is the
fact that Apple is trying to avoid replacing it.

If I buy the best, I expect the best. When I buy an Apple product, just like
the author, I expect to get the best. If it is defective, I expect Apple to
exchange it.

We, humans, are not perfect. I think we all get that. But we do expect to get
problems fixed and right away. Apple is the top dog right now in hardware, if
not even them respond to problems in a timely fashion and in the right way,
then yes, Apple is the same as the rest.

I don't think that Apple is just like the rest. In fact I expect a lo more
from them.

~~~
gknoy
In the Retina macbook's case, the premium seems worth paying because no one
else has a laptop with comparable hardware. It seems like the Nexus line has
similar dpi as the retina iPads, though, so hopefully this is simply a case of
Apple having it first, and everyone else will have it in the next year or so.

~~~
aespinoza
I understand, but if the monitor fails, it ends up being worse than the rest
don't you think? I get the author's feelings. He spent the money on a new
laptop, that is sold with the idea that just works and that if it doesn't it
will made to.

Also, there is a premium above the premium with a retina display. You get the
same laptop than an basic MBP for 400 dlls more.

~~~
Steko
"I get the author's feelings."

No matter how good your customer service is there will always be people that
feel just as aggrieved as the author because they fell just short of the
standard for replacement.

Maybe Apple _is_ completely falling apart and This Would Never Happen With
Steve(TM)... _or_ maybe we've seen this movie many times before. For years it
was the Guy with One Bad Pixel when the standard for replacement was two but
he always swore on the forums that it was Right In the Middle.

~~~
aespinoza
I agree. No matter how good you are you can never please everybody. And for
the record I personally don't think Apple is falling apart.

The problem I see is simple to identify, and in the position Apple is in right
now, it is difficult to remediate.

It is a problem of scale. I think Apple is growing too much too fast, and it
is struggling to scale their operations. I obviously could be wrong since I am
not an insider, but it seems that is the case.

------
nicholassmith
Apple seems to have pulled back on the whole positive customer experience in
store this year, I've had issues with marking below the display surface and
they instantly said "not a defect, £350 please", except it looks like the
tolerance on my Air is off. It's a shame, they're starting to reduce customer
satisfaction in maximisation of profits, rather than increasing profits
through customer satisfaction.

~~~
kmfrk
Maybe it has to do with the new guy who was summarily booted from the company
in a year? One can hope that Cook is course-correcting.

~~~
nicholassmith
Don't know why you're getting down voted, it's very possible that his effect
is still being felt.

------
ireadzalot
I have the Macbook Pro that keeps making a constant white noise right after
the machine boots up. The sound is loud enough when I am by myself that it
totally distracts me. I have had 3 mac laptops before and this is the loudest
one by bar. After I compared my machine with a close friend who has an exact
machine (same late October last year generation), I realized that the machine
had some issues.

I took it to the apple store. They said they tested it and could not "hear"
the noise. So they wouldn't do anything about it. Yet when I put my macbook
pro next to any laptop, everyone can tell my laptop is the loudest.

I have become one of their disappointed customers.

------
jblock
When I went to have it looked at, the Apple store employee was fairly
sympathetic even though it failed the test (he told me that people do fail it,
but that more often than not it's just below the threshold). He told me to
keep trying the test at the store until it fails. Whether other Apple store
employees will be as sympathetic, I don't know.

Is corporate trying to sweep it under the rug? Maybe. But this is a costly
repair for a part that is in incredibly high demand. It's not right and I'm
frustrated about it, but I'm not surprised.

~~~
emcl
The reaction expected from you is rage, and not frustration and helplessness.
I don't know of any other company that would kick its customers in the nuts
and that too the early adopters.

~~~
jblock
Remember that apple sells millions of these things and we are <200 commenters
on a website filled with edge case power users.

Odds are that a good amount of buyers either don't care or haven't noticed the
problem. It's not kicking their customers in the nuts. They poorly structured
the evaluation method to set a threshold for repair and are having to
backtrack and fix an expensive quality control mistake.

They're not kicking me in the nuts. They're a company of humans that has to
deal with a problem in a way that satisfies their suppliers, shareholders, and
engineers. I've found greater success in approaching problems like this with
rationality. With lots of noise, maybe the test will change (only 30 seconds
on the grey screen will make a metric shit-ton of the units qualify for
replacement).

~~~
emcl
If the customers start sympathizing like that then they're going to stop
listening to us and only act according to the other constraints you mentioned.
If i go and buy a Pro Retina, the screen is the last thing i want trouble
with, and if they fail in ensuring that it works, they should just replace it.
Period. I don't give a damn about thresholds and whether im being 'reasonable'
in whining or not. Maybe it's just me i want the best when i pay for it. Screw
the shareholders and suppliers.

~~~
jblock
Yeah, screw the suppliers that get you the screen you want.

Have some common sense.

------
dr_
Really, I've found the case to be just the opposite. I have a friend who had a
15" MBP, prob circa 2009. He kept complaining that a pixel would be missing on
the screen on occassion. He tried to point it out to me, but it's something I
never noticed. He took it to the Apple store multiple times, and they said
they fixed it, but nothing was ever changed according to him. Finally, when he
took it back one final time, they just replaced it with the newest 15" MBP
available at the time. I was a bit surprised.

------
ruswick
This is very problematic and disconcerting. However, I feel like the true
reason that this gentleman is upset that he was disillusioned after his
pristine opinion of Apple was ruined. That Apple would "take care" of him.
This is not the case.

Apple doesn't give the most perfunctory shit about you or your problems. The
Genius Bar exists to serve purposes: to attract possible customers and to
pacify people with broken products. They don't care about you personally. They
do not care about your screen. They're a corporation and they care exclusively
about money. They pursue this desire through standardization and
implementation of bureaucracy.

It sounded like the guy did the requisite test and in doing so upheld their
obligation. Evidently, the test wasn't sufficient. That sucks, but Apple is
not obligated to, nor are they willing to give to you, the benefit of the
doubt.

I'm sorry that you had to go through such an absurd tribulation, but Apple did
not attempt to personally screw you.

Apple is unequivocally in the wrong here, but butting such prodigious trust in
a huge corporation makes you predisposed to come out of stuff like this
inordinately contemptuous.

------
bm1362
I used to work in AppleCare and would advise OP to simply try again with a
different genius/agent. Apple will set some guidelines but ultimately it was
up to the agent's discretion. I was there for antenna-gate and almost always
tried to make the customer satisfied- although I would have to run through the
tests to protect myself.

Its a bureaucracy like anything else, some are more susceptible to empathy.

------
jad
I had the same problem with a rMBP. Apple replaced mine at the Apple Store
even though I couldn't show them the problem while I was there. They even gave
me the extra charging brick that came in the new machine's box.

I have a friend with a base model rMBP who took it into the Apple Store, and
they replaced his with the maxed out model because that's the only
configuration they had left in stock.

~~~
FireBeyond
"I have a friend with a base model rMBP who took it into the Apple Store, and
they replaced his with the maxed out model because that's the only
configuration they had left in stock."

That surprised me - I was looking at an MBP purchase at an Apple Store (fairly
large one, Tacoma WA).

My options were only 4GB and various sizes of HDDs.

They "did not" stock 8GB models, or SSD models. Not "were out of", but did
not.

They offered to install more memory, but at the (already extortionate Apple
price) cost of the full 8GB (and give me 4GB back).

I ended up buying a Vaio Z, and have been fantastically happy with it: Carbon
Fiber body, 13" 2.5lb, with a better processor (Core i7 3612), better screen
(1920x1080), better graphics, and 8GB of memory. Oh, and it was cheaper.

~~~
jad
> They "did not" stock 8GB models, or SSD models. Not "were out of", but did
> not.

This is a Retina MacBook Pro, not the "traditional" MacBook Pros with the
optical drive. All Retina MacBook Pros have SSDs, so I'm not sure what models
you were looking at. In any event, Apple does carry the fully maxed out Retina
MacBook Pro in the stores. I know because I bought one myself.

~~~
FireBeyond
This was approximately two months prior to the rMBP release.

I have no doubt that varying stores have different stock policies, but at the
fairly large store I was at, it was suggested I order online.

------
akeck
"The second mouse gets the cheese." - Since my iBook died multiple deaths via
its BPGA socket, I've learned to buy rev. 2 or rev. 3 products for all my
Apple purchases, when possible. It's consistent with my experience in avoiding
x.0 software releases. It's really cool when a company treads new ground, but
if you need reliability, it's best to let others test the first round.

~~~
MartinCron
_I've learned to buy rev. 2 or rev. 3 products for all my Apple purchases,
when possible_

It's not just Apple products. A few years ago, I bought the first model year
of a new car. That's not something I'll ever do again.

~~~
akeck
Yep. Toyota seems to release their Corollas in three year design cycles. I
wonder what the distribution of 300 kilomile Corollas is across those years.
My guess is that the 300 kilomile population is highest for the rev. 3 cars.

------
intelliot
While I totally agree that Apple is handling this situation poorly, I'm even
more worried about the lack of competition. Which of Apple's competitors
offers better service? I can't think of one. Lenovo, HP, Dell? While I'd love
Apple to be more generous, in a similar situation, in my experience, you're
more likely to get left out to dry with any of their competitors.

------
ksec
I think there is two problems with Apple in this case.

1\. The Services Level shown is subpar compared to what it is in US. Most of
the time we see good services, free exchanges and repaired are actually
stories in US. Outside US customers are treated like a second class citizen.

2\. The guy bought AppleCare for Christ Sake. Why not just replace it when it
is a known issues with LG display type.

------
gnaffle
I think this has been The Apple Product Cycle for ages.

1) Random problem appears on 1st iteration product 2) Some are lucky and get
it repaired, some are not. 3) Lots of petitions and screaming in forums 4)
Apple silently changes their policy and gives some kind of extended warranty
or replacement (optional)

It's absolutely something Apple should improve, but it's certainly not new.

------
ssharp
Are there historical contexts for comparing 1) the failure rate of Apple
laptops, particularly first gen and 2) the response to these hardware
failures?

I'm curious if this is something more widespread or if the author got unlucky
and has simply suffered for the first time what many others have suffered
previously.

------
cloverich
So you're front page Hacker News. Why not put together a poll of people with
similar issues and file a joint complaint? You purchased an expensive machine,
I'd imagine anyone similarly experiencing the issue would be willing to put in
some effort to get a bit more attention drawn to it.

------
kzahel
My coworker's display retina has the same ghosting problem and it looks pretty
bad. I know I would be very annoyed if mine had ghosting. I would love to use
a non-mac version of a laptop with a 2560px+ display, but I'm not aware if one
exists.

------
jcizzle
How are you performing this test? Are you creating an application with a plain
grey window and running it?

I think this could be an OS issue/graphics driver issue. I sometimes notice
things "behind" my dark grey Xcode editor window - like for example, I can see
this website in Safari behind Xcode. However, sometimes, I see stuff that
isn't directly behind Xcode - but it is in another Space.

If the hardware test is succeeding, and you are only seeing "ghosting" on
particularly colored windows, I think it is safe to say it may not be the
display. (It still may be the display. I'm just saying there are more
variables here, and I don't have all of your information.)

~~~
hmottestad
It's the display.

If it were a software problem Apple would probably not be replacing any
screens at all or even performing a screen test.

------
bitcartel
The moral of the story? Hope that your Apple computer ships with Samsung
components so you get a better display and a faster SSD.

~~~
kmfrk
You can dodge the SSD problem by buying a laptop with some specific SSD sizes.
I did the same to dodge the issue, but I can't remember which worked.
Anandtech has it covered, though.

------
crag
It's not just Apple. It's all companies. When was the last time you tried to
repair your washing machine under the warranty? Good luck.

And it's software too. I can't remember the last time I installed a piece of
software that wasn't filled with bugs. Some of them just glaring. Companies
mantra, "Oh we'll fix that in an update". Six months down the road. Meanwhile
they already have my money. This especially true with games.

It's the way we do business now. "Sell now! Report earnings now!" And worry
about the rest later.

I mean who cares if out of 25 million customers 15,000 have bad monitors. Just
make sure none of them write for the New York Times. :)

~~~
piyush_soni
But others are not charging huge amounts on the much touted "Apple Care".

~~~
Steko
"others are not charging huge amounts"

This is completely false.

------
mullingitover
If my history with Apple support is any guide, good luck. My first Macbook
Pro:

\- Laptop starts dying hard with >20% battery remaining 16 weeks or so after
purchase

\- Get a replacement battery free due to recall \- Replacement battery has
same problem, turns out the replacement batteries have also been recalled!
Lucky me.

\- Get a third replacement battery

\- Third replacement battery has the exact same problem. Contact Apple for
warranty replacement.

\- Apple's classy solution: tough shit. All the replacement batteries only
have a 90-day warranty. This of course is a replacement for a battery which
has a problem where failure occurs around 120 days.

~~~
kamjam
I like how you start off by saying "My first Macbook Pro", which implies you
have purchased more since this initial issue?

~~~
mullingitover
What can I say? They're the worst laptops, except for all the others.

Seriously though, the second one has been a champion and I've used it for four
years straight without a hiccup. It's a wash--I don't recommend Apple hardware
for everyone, but I still prefer it myself.

~~~
kamjam
Wow. I would have dumped it and never used them again.

I was having a bit of a "debate" with a friend of mine who bought the new MBP
a few months ago. We are both C# developers so we have no real use of the Mac
features, and he was running Windows 8 in VM. His laptop cost over 3 times
more than my Dell XPS, which granted is thicker and the screen is not as high
res etc, all features which I did not care about to be honest. His argument
was that Mac had very good hardware and would last several years. Sure, but in
that same time period if my laptop broke, I could afford to buy another 2 more
and still be even... MBP is a bloody nice piece of kit though! :)

~~~
mullingitover
Here's what make the cost easy for me to deal with: resale value. A two year
old Mac will easily fetch 75% of its retail price. Paying 25% of retail price
for two years of use is pretty reasonable.

~~~
kamjam
That's true. I just can't justify the high price when I won't use the
features, especially since by that stage things in my possession are pretty
broken :-p

------
nilsbunger
I use Apple products everywhere, partially because of the awesome retail and
support experience -- in-person and by phone. If they screw that up, they will
lose a big part of their "special-ness".

It is so great to walk into an apple store when you have an issue and have
someone who actually cares take a look and try to help you. And when you call
them for order or tech support, you get someone clearly intelligent, caring,
and who speaks English well.

Where else can you get that great service and retail experience? Does a MSFT
store do this?

------
marshray
Apple Bug #314159 - Display exhibits objectionable retina-like characteristics

Steps to reproduce:

1\. Stare at bright checkerboard pattern on screen for 1 minute without
blinking.

2\. Quickly look away at blank white wall.

3\. Observe persistence of image.

------
telecuda
I returned 2 15" Retina MBPs in 3 weeks. First had dead pixels, second had a
very squeaky spacebar, and now this third machine has the same ghosting effect
you've mentioned.

It's really not that much of an annoyance because it goes away quickly, but
you do think they would have corrected it.

To protect my MBP, I rock this classic black briefcase, which fits the laptop
and cables perfectly: <http://refer.ly/agTA>

------
hollandale
See, this is exactly why I'd like a service to make feature requests (or
slightly negative complaints), in order to rally a critical mass around it.
This is not just a shameless plug for the app I just posted to HN
(pvshapp.com), though I know it seems that way. I really think you've
demonstrated perfectly why there needs to be a standardized platform for
consumer product requests--as unlikely as improvements seem.

What you've just done with this post is build 334 affirmations of a change
that Apple needs to hear and make. Perhaps it's deeper, more pervasive than a
single feature request, but it still highlights a dimension of the company
Apple needs to pay attention to. It may seem futile, and it may seem like
hundreds of these requests have been made directly through Apple's customer
support website, but the fact is that it's not powerful persuasion unless you
have public support. That's why PvshApp has 2 objectives: 1) Make it as easy
as a Tweet to create a request, and 2) add a public audience to actualize
support if there is any.

For Apple, the value of this input is that they can condense customer feedback
into one single request that they can focus on (if they so desire) OR here's a
dumb idea: If Apple doesn't want to implement the feature, then who's stopping
a third party producer from adding the feature? Seriously, it may seem like an
IP nightmare at first, and I'm certainly no expert, but if a 3rd-party
producer actually wanted to purchase the Apple products at full price, then
augment them and sell the added features for a premium, who's to stop them?
(This is a question, I'd love to know the answer!) Maybe Apple casts too large
of a legal shadow, but I'm sure there are all sorts of other products for
which users would be willing to pay a premium for augmented features.

------
0xC3
Without a doubt it's true that Apple's support services fail on many levels.
When corporations lose sight of innovation and mainly focus energy on profits
these things are inevitable. I've dealt with many such issues and can relate
to the frustrations you have experienced. I personally try and solve every
such problem myself; an absolute last resort would be having to get 'help'
from someone else before expiring all other possibilities.

As far as your screen issues are concerned, It's quite common – and not
specific to your particular display. I have a Cinema Display which does the
exact same thing, and I've basically become immune to really noticing it much
anymore. When I first became aware of it I tried just about everything to
resolve the 'problem'. I was able to find a way to clear ghosting almost
completely, and it's as simple as running a particular screensaver for the
extended periods of time you're not using your system. The name of it is "LCD
Scrub", and although I was skeptical it really does work. It doesn't get rid
of the ghosting instantly, so you have to leave it running quite a while
before you see any results. Good luck!

------
HSO
I had the exact same issue ("ghosting"), found it was an LG screen (which are
known to have this issue), went to the Apple Store, and got it replaced under
the guarantee. Just had to show the issue once, no further questions asked.
Got it back with new screen after 3 days.

This was in Switzerland. Would be surprised, though, if they had such
drastically different replacement or repair policies for such an obvious
issue.

------
flyinRyan
I hope this goes viral. Apple was starting to actually gain a little bit of
market share in the home computer space and IMO support was a big reason. I
know I can have a better spec for less money but I felt like more effort and
care was put into Apple products. No one is going to be interested in paying
the "Apple tax" if you get the same shitty support you get from most PC
makers.

~~~
astrodust
You do realize they sell truckloads of these products and any flaws in them
will be publicized due to the staggering volumes involved, right?

Companies like Dell can hide behind several factors, like their notebooks are
usually priced a lot lower, quality expectations aren't as high, and they make
such a dizzying number of models that any problems are diluted.

I do hope it gets more press so that the problem can be properly addressed,
Apple does pay attention to the squeaky wheels after all, but don't get all
crazy now. Nobody's dying because their screen has a ghosting issue.

------
xenophanes
I had a different experience with apple. my 27" imac screen had some strong
ghosting and i got it replaced near the end of the 3 years of apple care. i
did this without ever visiting an apple store.

when i first phoned them, i had some low quality photos of the screen and the
guy said he wasn't sure if it was really a problem. i didn't want to take a
27" imac to a store b/c i have no car and apple wouldn't send me a box. so he
gave me his email address and said i could contact him any time in the future
with better photos.

months later i got a new ios device with a better camera, took a larger number
of pictures, emailed him the link, and he sent an on-site repair guy to give
me a new screen. no problem.

i think it depends on which customer service people you talk to. some are
great, some are not so good.

(the on site repair guy was great too, btw. he gave me a lesson on how to open
up imacs, change stuff, and put them back together)

------
mitchty
I'm typing this on my second Macbook Pro retina screen (bought mine day of
release). I've been through this "test" before. Both times I didn't have an
issue demonstrating it. I'm not overly pleased that the retina displays
apparently have an "acceptable" ghosting rate, my experiences haven't been as
bad as this bloggers.

Just to contrast the problems. That said, I agree the test is crap, the first
time I tested it with a genius the test was rather vague as to what they were
supposed to do. That and to be honest the JJ Abrams Star Trek lighting in the
apple store didn't help when looking for ghosting in the store.

All in all, its not much different from most of Apples first gen
"revolutionary" products. This being the first real "retina" 15" display
likely means teething issues. That said, no i'm not excited about being a beta
tester. But whatever, the machine has made me despise low dpi screens.

------
chaz
I've bought a MBP every year for 6 years. I spend so much time on them that
it's absolutely worth it to get increased performance and space. My current
rMBP has 16GB RAM and 512 GB SSD -- more than enough.

But I'll get the next rMBP for one reason: improved graphics performance. At
the 1920x1200 resolution, even things as mundane as scrolling webpages is
pretty low-FPS. Also, Google Chrome's aggressive GPU use seemed to be locking
the whole OS about once a day, forcing a hard reboot.

Aside from the locking, which now seems to have been resolved with 10.8.2
12C60, I'd say it's been worth it to have phenomenal screen resolution over my
previous MBP. Nearly two whole browser windows side-by-side is terrific. I've
seen mild ghosting, but I wouldn't say it's affected my day to day operation.

~~~
modarts
The UI performance was so abysmal for me that it didn't make up for the higher
resolution.

Spending 4k on the maxed out spec system, and having to deal with sub 20 fps
while scrolling a web page is just ridiculous (and one of the main reasons I
returned it.) Even the notes app would slow to a crawl when scrolling through
large amounts of text and nearly stop responding.

I'm really surprised that there haven't been more people complaining about
this issue. I'm all for high resolution screens, but please, for the love of
all that is holy, put a graphics card in there that is capable of pushing out
those pixels!

------
piyush_soni
They're all about earning money by ANY unethical means possible. We should
already boycott it for not only suing big companies for ridiculous patents,
but for trying to EXTORT money from small coffee shops and online grocery
shops who have nothing to do with electronics business!

~~~
lazerwalker
Can you substantiate this claim at all? I'd love to hear how Apple is trying
to extort money from coffee shops and grocery stores.

~~~
piyush_soni
Sure! Though I'd love if people would ask this question before giving negative
votes. Anyway, before you read these, just try to be a bit impartial towards
any side, which is generally difficult for Apple fans.

(Tell me very honestly, if you think the logo of this small coffee shop in
Germany has really any similarity with Apple's logo, except the fact that both
of them are derived from the fruit apple!) [http://www.mmo-
champion.com/threads/1231539-Apple-sues-small...](http://www.mmo-
champion.com/threads/1231539-Apple-sues-small-german-caf%C3%A9)

That poor woman just sold coffee, not electronic devices. Any sane mind would
not find any 'infringement', unless they believe Apple 'owns' the fruit itself
now.

Second, they sue an online GROCERY shop from Poland since its website name is
"a.pl". ".pl" is the top level domain code for Poland, a is the first
alphabet. Even they are not competing with Apple in any manner, but it claims
"they are using our reputation". WTF!
<http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2409669,00.asp>

They always know that small businesses can't fight back, so they are easy
targets. No, please don't come up with arguments like "What's wrong with
defending your brand?". This is NOT defending your brand. There's no brand
name getting hurt here. You just think you own the fruit.

~~~
biot
You should read this article:

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trademark_dilution>

Different standards apply to famous marks vs. regular trademarks. Imagine if a
company which made heavy mining equipment had a logo of a swoosh with a
hardhat inside. Would Nike be justified in claiming trademark dilution?
Absolutely. Or if that same heavy mining equipment manufacturer had a logo of
a big rounded arching M with a hardhat on it. McDonalds would legitimately
claim dilution there as well, even though the restaurant has no plans to get
into the mining industry. These situations would not be dissimilar to an apple
logo with a child's head inside.

It's easy to say "poor woman" but the cafe owner must comply with trademark
law, imperfect as it is. I hope she prevails actually. However, the process
must be allowed to continue. She filed for a trademark application. Apple has
apparently contested the trademark registration and sent the cafe owner a
cease & desist letter on the side, hoping she'll voluntarily withdraw the
application. She doesn't want to withdraw, so now it's in the hands of the
German trademark office to sort out.

~~~
piyush_soni
You _really_ think the only thing different in those two logos is that there's
a child's head inside right? How would you draw a real red apple fruit? If I
was good in drawing, this is the closest I'd get to a real apple. It's
definitely saying no one can use the fruit anymore, since a company chose to
keep it's own name by that. She filed for a trademark application, but there
must be someone insane sitting in Cupertino who thought they'd milk her on
that.

------
baddox
Isn't the fundamental problem here about communicating a product's quality
guarantee to potential buyers? Apple never guarantees that you won't have a
problem that annoys you or interrupts your work. Is there a detailed warranty
for the computer that makes Apple liable to fix this specific problem? OP's
problem obviously looks very real and quite annoying, but why should OP claim
that Apple is _obligated_ fix it? What if the problem was "the fan is too
loud" or "I don't like the keyboard," or something more obviously frivolous
like "I hate the OS X window manager" or "my PC games won't run on it"?
Obviously, Apple won't fix those if the fan is working at normal volumes and
the keyboard is completely within their specs.

------
planetjones
Two examples of bad service I've had from Apple recently:

a) ordered an iPod nano. Apple missed the delivery date by nearly a week,
because they had outsourced the delivery to some unreliable company in
Glasgow. I had left the country by the time it arrived.

b) I want to purchase a new 21.5" iMac. Store here in Zurich doesn't know when
they'll have stock and suggest I phone each day. I said if I order online
could I deliver it to the store. No was the answer. Then I said I would miss
the delivery as I work - so asked which courier would be used and would I be
able to visit their base to pick the iMac up. The guy in the store was unable
to answer. I can't find anyone to contact via e-mail either.

I don't see Apple as a customer focused company.

------
theturtle32
I just thought I'd throw this out there... I've had this issue with every
other IPS display I've ever used. I had three 21" HP IPS displays connected to
a Mac Pro for a few years and all three of them exhibited tho exact same
condition. The 23" Apple Cinema Displays we had at my university also did the
same thing. I just chock it up to the IPS display technology, and assume all
IPS displays do that to some degree. IPS is not known for having particularly
great pixel twist times, and thats probably related. That said, I'd still use
an IPS display in a heartbeat for the color accuracy. It's truly phenomenal.
The after-image is annoying, but I'm happy to trade it for the color accuracy.

------
zwischenzug
My perception of Apple has pretty much been like this guy's for 10 years now,
ever since I shelled out 250GBP on a 20G iPod whose battery ran out just over
a year later.

I went to an Apple store and asked whether I could have the battery replaced,
presumably for a price. "Just buy a new one, man!" was the response.

I'd taken a gamble buying the iPod (I didn't have much money at the time), was
prepared to pay to replace the replaceable part. The sheer arrogance and
condescension of the response, and the assumption that Apple consumers had
money to burn made my blood boil. I haven't bought anything Apple since.

~~~
zanny
I have an iphone 3gs I stopped using this summer just due to the battery dying
off. Wasn't going to pay the absurd rates Apple charges to get new batteries,
especially when I could just get an iPhone 4 _if I really wanted to_ for like
$30 more.

I still try to use the thing as a groupon screen. The Android groupon app
requires a persistent network connection to maintain the barcode, the iphone
version downloads the page entirely and you can keep reopening it without a
connection just fine.

One day I charged it for 6 hours from complete dead battery (I just let the
battery die now rather than let it eat up electricity for no reason, I rarely
use it) turn it on, put it in standby once I have the groupon loaded, and by
the time I whip it out 3 hours later to show the barcode the screen blips on
before the thing shuts off due to critical low battery. Had to sit in the
parking lot for 15 minutes with a car charger to get the thing to hold the
screen long enough to scan it.

The phone is only 3 years old, and the battery doesn't last 3 hours in standby
anymore.

~~~
zwischenzug
I hear you man. I'm writing this on a cheap 5 year old netbook. Haven't
replaced so much as a key. It was 250GBP then and has seen plenty of use.

------
soapdog
This reminds me of HP. Eons ago at a shop, I purchased an HP IPAQ Palmtop. As
we opened it inside the store to check, it had a blue dead pixel. The store
clerk, promptly closed the box and picked another one for me. We opened it and
boom, another dead pixel. We tried five IPAQs, they all had 1 dead pixel. He
phoned HP and told them that. HP answered that 1 dead pixel was okay by their
quality standard. The clerk made an ugly face and turned to me and said: "at
least you can choose the location of your dead pixel from these five available
choices".

------
doe88
I have a retina iPad (version 3) and since 2 months regularly I've got a full
white screen when I turn it on and I have to make some voodoo incantations in
order to make it disappear. So finally I sent it to Apple and they returned me
without any repair after having concluded they could not reproduce this issue.
So now I'm back with an iPad that is not working correctly half of the time.
I'm disappointed at Apple, I'm not mad, I'm just disappointed. I'd live near
an Apple store I'd brought the iPad to show them the issue but it's not the
case.

------
crististm
It's very easy to fake the test and then say - look, your screen is within
tolerance:

\- provide a black & white pattern for 3 minutes

\- provide a gray pattern _with compensation_ for the black&white for 1 minute

If your gray compensation doesn't fall through the minute, you are within
tolerance. If not, then the compensation was not enough and your screen is way
off.

Either way, your screen is toast.

Since, by definition, only people with defective screens will waste time to go
to service, only they will see the test and risk to see the compensation on a
good screen.

------
nsfmc
in my experience, it takes a few tries to successfully roll the hard six to
get a sympathetic genius. it's not exactly social engineering, but there are
some folks who are more likely to take your side especially if you can show
that the problem is happening while you're sitting there with them.

still, the fact that the applecare universe works like that at all is a bit
disheartening especially if you have a legitimate hardware issue but an
unsympathetic genius.

------
nsxwolf
Apple has had all sorts of screen problems for many years now. Most customers
don't notice them, but if you're keen to such things, you probably don't
approach powering up a new Apple device with the joy that's supposed to come
with it. You hold your breath and scan the screen with great anxiety for dead
pixels, yellow stripes, pink and green splotches, uneven backlighting,
ghosting, and light leakage.

------
arihant
Apple has always been pretty much rigid about results of their tests during
repairs or replacements.

To be fair, I got almost every single part of my Macbook replaced after a
surge incident that was caused internally - but I have never been able to
negotiate even a repair of something trivial in cases where Apple tests fail.

They do bend over backwards for helping us out - but their tests could be very
unrealistic some times.

------
ComputerGuru
There is a new MacBook Retina clamshell that was pushed out a month before the
13" MBPr hit the shelves.

I had mine replaced due to pretty intense ghosting after just 2 minutes, and
when I went in to the Genius Bar, they found the clamshell part had a new
model number (vs the one they had seen a week before). This one does not
ghost.

------
Apocryphon
It'd be nice if these discussions actually came with large scale customer
surveys to determine how the public as a whole feels. Perhaps Consumer Reports
has looked into this. Right now all of this is just a lot of heat and emotion
in both directions, coupled with stirring but useless anecdata.

------
sasoon
I was just about to buy MacBook Pro Retina 15, 16GB, 512GB, when I found out
about this ghosting problem. I could not take the risk of getting faulty
screen (I would have buy it on trip to US). I am surprised that Apple is not
doing anything about it. This problem is known for months

------
tathagata
Can someone posts some pictures showing how the ghosting interferes with
regular applications (Safari, iTunes, XCode etc)? Maybe it is something one
can live with, especially considering how primitive the existing displays are
compared to the retina display.

------
apricot13
apple have had their day. Their going downhill FAST.

I'm glad I got to experience apple when they were great, it was the tail end
of their greatness but they created beautiful products and cared about the
consumer.

Now their all about the money.

I recently had to book a genius appt and wait a week to get a new charger.
w-t-f apple. In the old days any staff would try out your charger, realise it
didn't work and then replace it (assuming it was under warrenty) now I have to
spend £65 and then get a refund the week after. and they gave me ANOTHER new
charger. Why not let me keep the one I paid for and not create more waste.

already left the iphone fold but unfortunately osx (snow leopard at least) is
a great OS :(

------
adrian_pop
I bought a macbook pro late '11 from almost the same reasons: apple's good,
shiny etc...sorry was. Even if some will call me a traitor, I am thinking to
switch my iPhone for a Lumia :)

------
olgeni
After using Xcode for a full day I can see my immortal soul stuck in the
desktop background.

I avoid using iMacs with any kind of glue near the LCD for obvious reasons.

------
Void_
I'm so glad this issue is finally getting some attention.

I returned my rMBP after experiencing the issue. It looks that getting a
Samsung screen is a game of chance.

~~~
wjamesg
Doesn't Apple have a reasonable no-questions-asked return policy? 14 days, or
maybe 30? I wonder why the OP didn't take advantage.

------
tomplayford
Same issue.

------
ricg
Thanks for posting this. I thought about buying one before the end of the
year, but now I'll wait for the second generation.

------
imran
We all had a tiny intuition that apple is not going to be the same after Steve
Jobs death. Apple is gone for good!

------
papaver
thank you for posting this!! looks like i ran into in just the knick of time.
i just recently purchased a new macbook pro with a retina display for my
brother how lives out of the country. will make sure i have a samsung display
so he doesn't have ghosting issues or apple care issues in the future!

------
shocks
My two year old £200 24" LCD showed no signs of ghosting at all.

~~~
minitrollster
How is that relevant?

~~~
shocks
You're right. It's not really. I just that fully expected it to fail, and was
pleasantly suprised when it didn't.

------
fabrika
I've had similar issues with Cinema Displays in mid 2000-s.

------
cypher517
rMBP here and yup ghosting issue

------
indiecore
Glad I got a Lenovo. I was mulling over getting a macbook for the longest time
since I wanted the option to develop iPhone apps. After thinking it over I
realized that I was disgusted with Apple's practices and didn't want to
support them beyond what I absolutely had to, so I'm getting a Thinkpad and
I'm quite content with that. Any phone dev will have Android first and I'll
get a second hand mini or something when I need to do iPhone work.

~~~
flyinRyan
So you're going the route of "get it a little cheaper and expect little or no
support"?

~~~
pixelbath
Support? It's a laptop, not an API. The only real support I expect after
purchase is warranty replacement for faulty hardware.

------
pretoriusB
> _I'm writing this because I think Apple may have changed._

Really? How it's different from, say, the constantly failing logic boards on
iBooks G3? Or overheating on MBP circa 2007. Or the problems with the G4 Cube.
Or the green goo from G5 Mac Pros' liquid cooling.

Shit happened with Apple before AND after Jobs. Especially when you buy a
first generation model, like the Retina was. Wait it out till they iron the
problems.

I've had similar things happen to my PC machines. On them at a much bigger
rate than in Apple gear. I had IBM "Death"star disk drives failing in 3
machines on my small company. I checked the webs, and they had issued a note
that the disks were problematic and suggested not running them for more than
700 consecutive hours (!!!). And that's from IBM. Another time I had an AMD
machine that overheated and stopped working (processor shutdown). Or a Toshiba
laptop that lost 3 keys in 2 years and the DVD never wrote a disk correctly.

The difference is, a company like Toshiba or Acer, ships less units and more
models (and far more variations), so a faulty run at them affects, say, 50,000
people, whereas a faulty Apple run affects one or two million.

Not to mention that most models from those companies rarely stray of the
"proven and boring" road, so they get things like Retina, thunderbolt etc
after all the quirks have been ironed out by more forward moving companies
(Apple, sometimes Sony, etc).

------
frozenport
Apple is greedy? No way!

------
arbuge
Ah, $500B+ market cap company problems...

------
hughw
I think the OP should apply for a patent on this test.

