
There have almost been as many mass shootings in the US as days this year - Quanttek
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_mass_shootings_in_the_United_States_in_2019#Statistics
======
DuskStar
When you use a definition like "two or more people shot in the same incident",
_of course_ there's going to be a surprising number of incidents - because
that's not what most people consider to be a mass shooting.

~~~
Quanttek
In most other (Western) countries, "2+ shot in one incident, _excluding the
perpetrator(s)_ , at one location, at roughly the same time", would be seen as
a mass shooting and probably reach national media. There's a reason why the US
has the highest gun death-rate per capita in the "developed" world [1]. The
problem is the high gun-ownership rate [2] - other countries also have bad
mental health care, a strong media focus on suspects, or high depression rates
but America's gun culture is quite unique

[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-r...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-
related_death_rate) [2] [https://www.vox.com/policy-and-
politics/2017/10/2/16399418/u...](https://www.vox.com/policy-and-
politics/2017/10/2/16399418/us-gun-violence-statistics-maps-charts#4eVoZS)
(and the following chart)

~~~
DuskStar
> The problem is the high gun-ownership rate [2] - other countries also have
> bad mental health care, a strong media focus on suspects, or high depression
> rates but America's gun culture is quite unique

This is such a trainwreck of an argument - first you exclude 'non-western'
nations, and by doing so acknowledge that there are factors _besides_ gun
ownership rate that influence gun death rates (Which include gun suicides, and
so probably shouldn't be included here!), and then say that "America's gun
culture is quite unique" while ignoring the fact that the highest rates of gun
homicides in the US occur in cities with extreme restrictions on gun
ownership.

Finally, gun _ownership_ rates are not as different in Europe as you'd think -
US gun ownership rates are only slightly higher than those of Europe. (Not
guns per capita, % of population owning guns) Most of Europe and the
anglosphere ranges between 20 and 30 % gun ownership. For instance, Canada has
a gun ownership rate of ~26%. The US? ~33%.

If you want to discuss gun _homicide_ rates, fine. If you want to include
countries that the US _borders_ like Mexico, great! But comparing gun deaths
(since suicides make up 2/3 of US gun deaths) against a cherrypicked subset of
countries is really disingenuous.

~~~
Quanttek
> first you exclude 'non-western' nations, and by doing so acknowledge that
> there are factors besides gun ownership rate that influence gun death rates

Of course, they are. If you live in an active conflict zone or in a country
with a weak state, then surely that influences gun-related deaths (e.g. armed
conflict doesn't require a lot of civilians to have guns. It's hard to control
for all these variables. However, this doesn't detract from the fact that,
among somewhat similar countries, gun ownership is a very strong predictor of
gun-related deaths. It also doesn't detract that, amongst all nations, the US
is still a leading country regarding gun deaths

> Which include gun suicides, and so probably shouldn't be included here!

No, they should be included, because gun ownership makes suicide more likely
and much easier (see charts 11-13 in [2]): Most suicides are very spontaneous
(see effectiveness of suicide fences) and guns make suicides quick and easy.

> gun ownership rates are not as different in Europe as you'd think - US gun
> ownership rates are only slightly higher than those of Europe. (Not guns per
> capita, % of population owning guns) Most of Europe and the anglosphere
> ranges between 20 and 30 % gun ownership

I couldn't find data confirming that. However, there's an interesting bit on
Wikipedia on research showing the correlation between gun ownership and
violence [3]. Also, this doesn't change the association between number of
firearms and gun deaths: More guns also means easier access to guns. Also,
owning a gun in Europe is very different: you have to meet very stringent
requirements, go through various trainings, and store your guns safely.

It should be obvious that having two deranged, murderous individuals, having
easier access to guns, increases the likelihood of a murder.

> If you want to include countries that the US borders like Mexico, great

I'm not sure why that should be important, but just note that it is the
availability of weapons in the US, smuggled over the border, which fuels the
drug war there.

[3][https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_ownership#Association_with...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_ownership#Association_with_rates_of_violence)

~~~
DuskStar
> > first you exclude 'non-western' nations, and by doing so acknowledge that
> there are factors besides gun ownership rate that influence gun death rates

> Of course, they are. If you live in an active conflict zone or in a country
> with a weak state, then surely that influences gun-related deaths (e.g.
> armed conflict doesn't require a lot of civilians to have guns. It's hard to
> control for all these variables. However, this doesn't detract from the fact
> that, among somewhat similar countries, gun ownership is a very strong
> predictor of gun-related deaths. It also doesn't detract that, amongst all
> nations, the US is still a leading country regarding gun deaths.

I think "a leading country" here means "behind most of central america and the
caribbean". The US has a lot of cultural overlap with those areas, and there
is a significant racial and cultural component to homicide rates. (For
instance, approximately half of US murders are of and by African American men.
Exclude African Americans, and the US basically hits the EU average)

> > Which include gun suicides, and so probably shouldn't be included here!

> No, they should be included, because gun ownership makes suicide more likely
> and much easier (see charts 11-13 in [2]): Most suicides are very
> spontaneous (see effectiveness of suicide fences) and guns make suicides
> quick and easy.

Europe has essentially the same overall suicide rate as the US. Regarding
effectiveness of suicide fences, do they actually reduce suicides? Wikipedia
seems to suggest otherwise. [0] This would seem to indicate that if suicides
_are_ in fact very spontaneous, there are other easy routes to take.

> > gun ownership rates are not as different in Europe as you'd think - US gun
> ownership rates are only slightly higher than those of Europe. (Not guns per
> capita, % of population owning guns) Most of Europe and the anglosphere
> ranges between 20 and 30 % gun ownership

> I couldn't find data confirming that. However, there's an interesting bit on
> Wikipedia on research showing the correlation between gun ownership and
> violence [3]. Also, this doesn't change the association between number of
> firearms and gun deaths: More guns also means easier access to guns. Also,
> owning a gun in Europe is very different: you have to meet very stringent
> requirements, go through various trainings, and store your guns safely.

That section doesn't say what you seem to think it says. "the highest-quality
studies show that gun ownership does not increase homicide rates." "The
availability of illegal guns, but not that of legal guns, is associated with
higher rates of violent crime." "An international study by UNICRI researchers
from 2001 examined the link ... There were no significant correlations
detected for total homicide and suicide rates, as well as gun homicide rates
involving male victims." "The association between gun ownership and homicide
rates across nations is dependent on the inclusion of the U.S." "Studies in
Canada that examined the levels of gun ownership by province have found no
correlations with provincial overall suicide rates." "A 2011 study conducted
looking at the effects of gun control legislation passed in Canada and the
associated effects in homicide rates found no significant reductions in
homicide rates as a result of legislation." "A case-control study conducted in
New Zealand looking at household gun ownership and the risk of suicides found
no significant associations."

Thanks for making my argument for me, I suppose?

Also, I think you might be interested in rates of _illegal_ gun ownership in
Europe - compliance rates are far lower than you'd think [1], and unregistered
gun ownership rates far higher [2]. There's been tens of millions of weapons
left in the dirt on that continent over the past century - were they all
supposed to have disappeared into nothing? This makes the "But there are
higher restrictions on gun ownership!" argument fallacious - when two thirds
of the guns in Germany ignore those requirements entirely, perhaps they won't
have much of an impact.

> It should be obvious that having two deranged, murderous individuals, having
> easier access to guns, increases the likelihood of a murder.

But it does not follow that gun control reduces the chance that deranged
individuals have access to guns, among other things.

> > If you want to include countries that the US borders like Mexico, great

> I'm not sure why that should be important, but just note that it is the
> availability of weapons in the US, smuggled over the border, which fuels the
> drug war there.

Are you sure it's the availability of smuggled weapons, and not the economic
incentives caused by prohibition mk 2, that fuels the violence there?

Finally, I think I should include an article of my own, as a counterbalance to
that Vox idiocy: [https://slatestarcodex.com/2016/01/06/guns-and-
states/](https://slatestarcodex.com/2016/01/06/guns-and-states/) Note that he
still concludes that Australia-style gun control in the states could reduce
murders/year by as much as 2000 - about 25% of gun-related homicides. But that
would still leave a major homicide rate gap between the US and other western
nations - because a very large component is cultural.

0:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_barrier#Efficacy_of_su...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_barrier#Efficacy_of_suicide_barriers_for_saving_lives)

1: [https://reason.com/2012/12/22/gun-restrictions-have-
always-b...](https://reason.com/2012/12/22/gun-restrictions-have-always-bred-
defian)

2: [https://reason.com/wp-
content/uploads/assets/mc/2012_12/SAS2...](https://reason.com/wp-
content/uploads/assets/mc/2012_12/SAS2.2.gif)

------
Quanttek
Also, think about the fact that there is a Wikipedia list for mass shooting in
one country _this year_. Most countries don't even have a list of mass
shootings, let alone one for each year. The Utrecht tram shooting was for
_weeks_ in the media all around Europe (even in the US) and only 3 people
died. This was an unprecedented event in the Netherlands. However, this year,
the US had 20 shootings with the same number of fatalities or more

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lostmymind66
When it comes to gang shootings in the inner city, it's way more than what's
in this list.

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whenchamenia
Yet more people die from falling in their bathrooms every day than each year
from shootings. #bathroomcarpetnow

Don't base your politics on a rounding error.

