
Ravens can plan for future as well as 4-year-old children can - 16961714b
https://www.newscientist.com/article/2140668-ravens-can-plan-for-future-as-well-as-4-year-old-children-can/
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ljf
I had a pet magpie as a child and in the short time we had it it was clear it
was such an intelligent creature.

Its nest had fallen from a tree in a storm - we found it a day or so later in
a not great state. But within a day of feeding it was hand tame and happily
came to live in the house. By the end of the summer though it learnt the
skills it needed and flew off.

While it lived with us it quickly learnt the places we were happy for it to be
in the house, where its 'bed' was and when we would feed it. It continually
picked up small toys to play with and would delight in dropping things off the
table for us to fetch and return for it.

In some ways I was so sad when it left, and as a child regretted not clipping
its wings - but I'm pleased we didn't and was hopeful it went off to lead a
normal magpie life ;)

~~~
Retric
That's really interesting.

As a kid I once rescued a humming bird that got tangled in a spiders web. I
walked around with it for a few minutes and carefully cleaned the web off.
Then suddenly after realizing it was ok. The bird was all too happy to fly
off.

It must have been fun to have a bird stick around like that.

~~~
ljf
It really was - they were properly part of the family for a few months - and
it used to go out and play in the garden and come back in the house when it
was ready to rest or hungry - at first we locked it in a cage at night but
soon we didn't, and it was very happy.

But for ages it couldn't feed itself and relied on me dropping cat food into
its open beak with tweezers - I'm pretty sure it did this longer than it would
in the wild. Then one day when it was playing in the garden it learnt how to
catch worms and insects, and then the next day it started drinking from
puddles and then the next day it just flew away.

It might have returned, but to be honest even then it would have been hard to
recognise amongst other magpies - but it never tried to come in the house
again, even though we left the doors open.

For a few years after (and even now to be honest) I sometimes shout 'Marilyn'
when I see magpies - hoping it will recognise me ;) (we chose 'Marilyn' as I'd
recently read it was historically a mans name, so I thought it was good to
choose something gender neutral)

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qb45
TL;DR

Researchers trained ravens to exchange some tokens for food. Presented with a
choice of 15 different objects, majority of the birds picked the food tokens
and stashed them for up to 17 hours until an opportunity for exchange came
again.

The author believes this passes as the pinnacle of a 4 year old's planning
abilities.

~~~
new299
I'm kind of used to New Scientist misreporting my own and others research. If
someone has a link to the original study I'd be interested in taking a look.

Overall, is it really useful to compare Ravens and human children for their
long term planning ability? Human children are still under the care of their
parents. There's no real pressure on them to store food tokens...

~~~
grasshopperpurp
I believe this is the link you're looking for (haven't read it yet, but I did
verify that the full text is available):

 _A raven 's memories are for the future_

[http://science.sciencemag.org/content/357/6347/126](http://science.sciencemag.org/content/357/6347/126)

When searching, I also found this, which I missed the first time around, and
it might be interesting to some:

 _Subadult ravens generally don 't transfer valuable tokens to conspecifics
when there is nothing to gain for themselves_

[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4484978/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4484978/)

~~~
new299
Thanks for the links. If the first link is what they're referring too, then
it's a pretty dumb headline.

That article is a non-peer reviewed perspective on some recent research. To
provide background they make a throw away comment about some work done in 2007
[1] and say it's kind of similar to what you see in 4 year old children (in
another study).

The original researchers don't seem to have made that statement, or attempted
to support it. So... par for the course for New Scientist I guess...

[1]
[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17314979?access_num=1731...](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17314979?access_num=17314979&link_type=MED&dopt=Abstract)

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ganonm
General intelligence evolving independently in another distantly related
species implies there is a degree of evolutionary convergence towards this
trait given the right selective stimulus. This has implications for the
possibility of extraterrestrial intelligence and might allow us to rule out
the possibility that 'general intelligence' is an astronomically unlikely
event - one of the main candidates for a 'Great Filter'.

~~~
0xfeba
Dawkins mentions this, or maybe indirectly acknowledges it, in _The Selfish
Gene_. Organisms that can pass their ability to adapt on to fast acting
nervous centers or even better: large brains, eventually gain a huge
advantage.

The Great Filter on the other hand, relies on assuming the steps from evolved
intelligence (now) to solar system colonization/FTL travel are not only
possible, but just a matter of a few millennia or so. Which is a huge
assumption.

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straws
I feel like one day I'm going to land on Hacker News and I'll read _Team of
Ravens Beat Lee Sedol 4-1 in Latest Go Championships_

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unit91
I have a 3 year old who has all kinds of plans for Christmas. I seriously
doubt a Raven is capable of that.

~~~
Raphmedia
Indeed. Raven are not very much religious and don't tend to celebrate
religious holidays.

~~~
unit91
Serious question (I don't know that I know any atheists): do atheists not eat
ham and turkey, and give their kids presents on Christmas? I would have
thought this was more cultural than religious in the USA.

~~~
Raphmedia
Winter solstice is December 21. It makes sense to have gatherings around
equinoxes and solstices since they are turning points in the year.

That being said, most atheists come from religious regions or families. They
consider those holidays their heritage and celebrate them. Christmas is seen
equally to, let's say, Halloween. Nobody cares about Samhain but they care
about candies. Nobody cares about the birthday of Jesus but they care about
receiving their family and giving them gifts.

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autogol
Not a raven, but you can see a sample of bird planning in this funny video

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RJJQPuwyXgc](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RJJQPuwyXgc)

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ryanar
This is reminiscent of the Bicameral mind concept presented in Westworld. The
ability to have a sense of time and plan for it and meet a goal is essential
to sentience.

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ocschwar
Is that why my 4 year old keeps saying "nevermore"?

~~~
DrScump
Be very concerned if the child starts hearing heartbeats from under the
floorboards.

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DrScump
There was a great episode of PBS' _Nature_ on corvids' cognitive abilities and
tool use:

[http://www.pbs.org/wnet/nature/ravens-discover-the-
brainpowe...](http://www.pbs.org/wnet/nature/ravens-discover-the-brainpower-
of-the-bird-in-black/1507/)

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moomin
I'll believe that when a raven starts tenaciously suggesting we go for ice
cream any time we are even discussing the possibility of being anywhere close
to the ice cream shop.

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MrFantastic
TIL ravens are smarter than politicians and CEOs.

~~~
conductr
Ravens would have known not to take a meeting with the Russian Government
attorney

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ourmandave
I've seen 4-year-old's play with their food.

It's not going to go well under our new Raven Overlords.

My only hope is to taste like chicken fingers and therefore die quickly.

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lngnmn
Ravens have a concert of future? Amazing!

What if ravens just act accordingly to environmental cues instead?

