
Hong Kong Airport shuts down as protesters take over - improvehk
https://news.rthk.hk/rthk/en/component/k2/1474188-20190812.htm
======
bitanarch
The new protests happened because a new round of violence from the HK Police,
towards both protesters and people unrelated to protests.

e.g. Firing less-lethal rounds directly at head level, causing permanent
blindness

[https://www.reddit.com/r/HongKong/comments/cowgje/a_female_p...](https://www.reddit.com/r/HongKong/comments/cowgje/a_female_protestor_was_head_shot_and_shot_in_the/)

e.g. Planting evidence into protester's backpack

[https://www.reddit.com/r/HongKong/comments/coypg7/police_put...](https://www.reddit.com/r/HongKong/comments/coypg7/police_put_weapon_in_the_backpack_of_captured/)

e.g. Firing tear gas in subway station, which was being used by the general
public

[https://www.reddit.com/r/HongKong/comments/cp8qyy/hong_kong_...](https://www.reddit.com/r/HongKong/comments/cp8qyy/hong_kong_police_firing_tear_gas_indoors_not/)

~~~
maeln
I will add that there is now suspicion of police infiltrating protest to start
violent clash:
[https://news.rthk.hk/rthk/en/component/k2/1474213-20190812.h...](https://news.rthk.hk/rthk/en/component/k2/1474213-20190812.htm)

I wouldn't be very surprise if it was the case as it is often a tactic use,
even in our western democracies, to justify stronger and more violent police
operation and also tarnish the image of the protest.

~~~
onetimemanytime
Hong Kong is a matter of national security to China. Something countries go to
wars till the last man over. So what you mentioned is nothing, China has a lot
more goodies in the bag. Here's one: Granting pardons or giving immunity to
top criminal gangs as a long as they kill xxx revolt leaders.

~~~
johnchristopher
Why is this comment downvoted ?

In my country, Belgium, headlines were along the lines of "The real question
now is: how patient is Beijing inclined to be ?".

~~~
high_derivative
There seems to be a lot of downvoting irrespective of post quality.

I wonder if this is i) thread-specific due to possible brigading, or ii) a
more wider tribalistic phenomenon. I have perceived (lost my old account from
years ago) that downvoting more and more is plain disagreement with the
opinion, not whether a comment is substantive. Could be completely off and
biased, but at least in this thread it seems to be the case.

------
notwumao
I am a mainland-born Chinese who studied in the US and have been living in HK
for over a decade. Just want to share what I saw recently: an overwhelming
majority of Chinese people who grew up in mainland, regardless of where they
live and work now, disapprove of the HK protesters' activities. Many mainland
Chinese living in HK, who were largely not interested in politics in the past,
have started donating money to pro-government causes. Supportive comments of
the mainland government have risen dramatically among private chatters. It
seems to me that the HK protesters' messages do not resonate well with most
Chinese people.

~~~
CogitoCogito
May I ask you why you are against the protests? Also would you support the CCP
making a public statement taking a step back and agreeing to listen to the
protesters' concerns?

~~~
notwumao
Regarding the second question, I felt humiliated by the protestors' vandalism
on the Chinese flag and emblem, which are symbols of our national identity. If
my government ended up making concessions to the protestors' demand, it would
be a hard pill for me to swallow.

~~~
jddj
This got me thinking about my own situation.

I've been living abroad in various places for a few years now, and I feel like
if someone were to vandalise the flag of my home country in an act of protest
I don't think it would trigger much of an emotional response in me at all. No
more, probably, than someone vandalising the flag of my sports team (that's to
say, not much).

I wonder where this emotional attachment to tribal symbols starts and ends. I
haven't done much at all in my life (voted a few times, otherwise just lived
within the system) to _create_ my home nation. It's just the part of the world
where I happened to be born.

Even if I had fought hard to change my country and later become proud of what
it had become, I would question whether someone defacing a symbol of that
country would trigger an emotional response.

Am I alone in this? Is this tribalism something which is usually considered
innate or learned / forgotten?

~~~
mytailorisrich
> _and I feel like if someone were to vandalise the flag of my home country in
> an act of protest I don 't think it would trigger much of an emotional
> response in me at all._

This very much depends on a country's history and it is impossible to
generalise, although I would suspect that burning an American flag in the US
(for example) would not go well with many Americans (and probably same for
other countries).

China's current regime is partly a reaction to foreign aggression and
humiliation.

An enduring symbol of this aggression and humiliation was Hong Kong itself.

This what makes attacking state symbols (or waving the British/American flags
as I have seen some protesters do on TV) in Hong Kong so potent.

I think that for many Chinese seeing people protesting against the extradition
bill and for more democracy is one thing (which they may be somewhat
sympathetic to, actually) but attacking national integrity is quite another,
which is guaranteed to produce general anger.

~~~
nimrod0
Two possibilities present themselves.

Either the protestors don't know any history, or have learned such a skewed
version of history that they internalize the perspective of the 19th century
British victors in an ultimately self-defeating way, or;

They know very well the potency of the symbolism and are deliberately
declaring themselves aligned with the Western camp out of political
expediency, and elevating the conflict to the level of a battle of spheres of
influence.

Neither possibility will be looked upon kindly by mainland Chinese firmly
rooted in their own historical and political understanding, because it is
against their interest.

------
vijucat
Complicating the nature of these protests is that the 5 overt demands put
forth by protestors (all related to the Extradition Bill) do not reflect a
large cause of the latent / tacit discontent: the inability of youngsters to
buy a home and raise a family due to collusion between property developers and
government to restrict land supply. This author has stated the problem better
than I can:

[https://www.scmp.com/comment/opinion/article/3022107/midst-h...](https://www.scmp.com/comment/opinion/article/3022107/midst-
hong-kongs-turmoil-carrie-lam-must-prioritise-housing-crisis)

Decades of this squeeze have placed youngsters in a position where they have
nothing to lose: Hong Kong has so many shiny buildings and not a square foot
to their name. I was once getting flowers for my wife and ended up talking to
a couple planning for their wedding reception at the florist. I was shocked to
learn that they had discussed it and will not be having children because it is
unaffordable. In my opinion, the Extradition Bill is just the final straw that
broke that camel's back.

~~~
baybal2
I'm afraid that this argument is just a diversionary manoeuvre tying to shift
the narrative. I do feel it is being planted by pro-BJ side, to allow Beijing
to waltz in and say "Apartments for everyone, now go home"

It feels manufactured — the ones rioting are the higher middle classes, who
despite astronomical real estate prices can still survive somehow, not the
homeless youth living in McDonaldses.

To provide some context to outsiders: housing to HK is pretty much like the
healthcare is to America. Patently broken, but is pretty much a part of the
class identity.

Higher ups on the social ladder don't mind much to continue to "bite the
cactus," and some even think of it as something normal, even actively trying
to subvert efforts to fix the situation.

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kitsune_
I don't think this will end well, the more this drags on, the more violent it
will probably become. At some point the state will probably have a pretty good
excuse to declare martial law and enforce order by military means, ultimately
it might fasten the integration of Hong Kong into the PRC instead of delaying
it.

~~~
willis936
You’re implying that the people should just lay down and take it? They are
risking their lives for their principles and they are doing it the right way.

~~~
cattlefarmer
A pragmatist would lay down and take it, while preparing to emigrate out of HK
as soon as possible.

~~~
willis936
I don’t speak for the people of Hong Kong, but I could imagine many people
caring deeply about a place that is considered home, with a specific culture
and set of people.

------
skilled
I don't understand why HK hasn't done anything about this? I mean, the
protests.

This doesn't look like your average worker strike and people seem genuinely
determined to get a change of direction.

Anyone who has been involved with this, can you comment on the latest
government response to the "demands" from people?

~~~
sgjohnson
Because the HK government are Chinese puppets. They can't (and don't want to)
do anything, because their communist overlords don't want to.

There's too many protestors to dissapear them all.

~~~
pishpash
Making simplistic caricatures won't help the cause. There is a constitutional
path towards having these demands discussed off the street, but some people
have no respect for process while denouncing the same of the other side. "My
way or the high way." No sympathy for either side.

~~~
sgjohnson
Is there? Because as far as I can tell, the protesters believe that they are
under foreign occupation. And I tend to side with them?

“Constitutional path”? Hong Kongs self rule has been gradually eroded since
1997.

~~~
pishpash
They can believe that rhetorical fantasy, but HK being a part of China isn't
going to be re-litigated. Everything else is theoretically possible, though
the more protests try to tear down the "one country" part (anti-Article 23,
2014 protests, etc.), the more the "two systems" part becomes endangered.
That's a cold-headed assessment of what has been happening since 1997.

------
ninedays
"Not sure what the HK protesters endgame is here." People are fed up about how
the system works and about their life and the life of people they know. They
want things to be "better" without having to clearly define and write a 167
page law that will probably not benefit them.

People are expressing their dissatisfaction and IMHO that's a valid
justification for protesters and good enough for me.

~~~
pasiaj
Everything you say seems correct.

The problem is that movements without specific, clearly defined policy goals
tend to fail.

It is easy to come together to oppose _some bad thing_ , but it is really hard
to find consensus on what to do after the bad thing has been defeated. So
while movements without specific policy goals can win elections, the usually
cannot bring effective change.

Is independence the goal here?

~~~
jddj
It's made more difficult (partly due to the lessons learned from the umbrella
movement) because this has been a leaderless movement, which while making it
difficult to disappear the people managing it, also must make it more
difficult for defined policy goals to form (although some have emerged).

It seems to be developing organically as the people come to understand how
much momentum they have and how much their peers agree with their
frustrations.

I'd speculate that if they somehow gained enough momentum that it appeared to
be within reach then independence would probably be the end goal, but who
knows.

~~~
pasiaj
I searched and found the five demands:

one, the bill must be withdrawn; two, the chief executive must resign; three,
the government must retract its characterisation of the violent clashes as
“riots”; four, there must be a full independent inquiry into the actions of
the police and; five, everyone arrested in respect of the clashes must be
unconditionally freed.

More here:

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019_Hong_Kong_anti-
extraditio...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019_Hong_Kong_anti-
extradition_bill_protests)

------
cltsang
Not sure what the government is trying to achieve by shutting down the airport
and sending in the police to clear the scene. AFAIK the protesters are not
causing any trouble there, no flights are affected.

There are many who chose to sit-in at the airport since they do not agree with
the escalation of the protests in other districts. Also there are elderlies
and parents who have to carry and look after their children, who just cannot
bear tear gas and rubber pullets.

This act by the government will only catch more foreign attention, and put
more pages on the pile of recent police brutality.

------
baybal2
PLA was doing innuendo charged manoeuvres for the past 2 months all over the
province.

Today, they were finally moved to the HK bridge terminus.

They even plastered banners with something like "you got it" on their APCs

~~~
danieltillett
I have been wondering how long it will be before the HK gov calls in the PLA
to 'restore order'.

~~~
baybal2
The day it will do it, will also be its last, so they will both sides in HK
have interest to drag it out.

------
chychiu
New to Hacker News - Is there a reason why this has disappeared from the front
page within minutes? It was on the top of the front page as of 9:02pm AEST
(4:02AM PDT).

~~~
jddj
It may have been gaining far more comments than upvotes for a time?

This is seen as a red flag by the algorithm, as it suggests that the thread is
overly controversial.

------
high_derivative
This is intensely interesting because everything points towards China never
backing down, and protesters having nothing to win. The default assumption is
continuity of the party and the system.

Yet, looking at history, systems are not that stable. The Berlin wall and
Sowjet union seemed like they would not end.

I assume 3-letter agencies have vast amounts of resources dedicated to
analyzing how to create the instabilities that may ultimately make such
systems collapse.

Bottom line, historically speaking, we should not be surprised if China
collapses. We should also not be surprised if the party keeps its tight grip
for another 100 years.

~~~
Simon_says
The Soviets were bankrupt.

~~~
JoeAltmaier
As the Chinese are heading toward now, at a dead run.

------
pinkskip
HKIA is the critical lifeline of Hong Kong, the economy is already suffering,
i think its matter of time before PLA gets involved. I'm very concerned for
Hong Kong and its people.

~~~
willis936
What could force possibly accomplish? Do you think an economy would operate
after you massacre thousands? Do you think people would show up to work? They
could sack the city, guaranteeing no money would come out of it. If it’s
profit they want then they will need to bend, not break.

~~~
pinkskip
I agree that force would only result in more pushback. But Beijing
increasingly sees Hong Kong as a problematic territory. At the time of
handover Hong Kong almost constituted 18% of China’s GDP and now it’s less
than that of what Shenzhen contributes. So Hong Kong is losing its leverage to
claim autonomy and if Hong Kong’s economy further contracts, what choice
people in Hong Kong have?

------
flyinglizard
Not sure what the HK protesters endgame is here. It's unthinkable that China
would step down. If anything, they are forcing China to take direct action,
because if they let HK do its own thing, it won't end there for China.

~~~
dustinmoris
Agreed. I don't think that HK have an actual plan here. They just protest for
the sake of protesting. China will never step down and if anything HK makes it
really really easy for China to claim more control now over HK because HK
proves itself to be not in control of its citizen. China is the most important
market in the world, no other country will intervene with China, especially
not given that the largest country in this world - Russia - would always back
China in a geopolitical conflict, so nobody has the balls to challenge Russia
and China at once for good reasons.

EDIT: Besides that, I am pretty confident that the media makes it look a lot
worse than it actually is too.

I've been to China and Hong Kong. In China people looked relaxed, spent time
relaxing in parks and socialising. I went to Hong Kong and it was unbearable
crammed, people were stressed and over worked and there was no escape from the
hamster wheel. No wonder mainland Chinese have little sympathy for HK.

~~~
throwaway2048
Luckily, for their own sake the people of Hong Kong aren't cowardly and
acquiescing to the loss of their freedom.

Letting China get away with dominating Hong Kong isn't going to do them 1 tiny
iota of good long term, if they ever hope to make a stand, the time is now.

~~~
barry-cotter
> Luckily, for their own sake the people of Hong Kong aren't cowardly and
> acquiescing to the loss of their freedom.

Luckily how? They’re going to lose. If they want freedom they’re going to have
to leave China for it, emigrate. All the protest isn’t going to buy them
victory. The CPC isn’t going to allow Hong Kong to publicly defeat it; that
would be domestically politically disruptive. They’d rather abrogate the one
country two systems agreement and just abolish the SAR’s freedoms altogether.

------
tictoc
Perhaps slightly unrelated, but do people believe a dictatorship like China
can thrive as a first world economy by suppressing people's basic fundamental
human rights?

~~~
tempeirn
Yes. I actually do. People have been saying communist can’t survive, but look
what China has achieved and continues to achieve. It’s scary but saying
dictatorships can’t survive dismisses any possible understanding that it
might.

~~~
staticautomatic
China is not communist under any political scientific definition.

------
dustinmoris
So far China has been extremely calm and restrained itself from doing anything
premature and yet they are being portrayed as the absolute worst people.

On the other hand there are governments like the US which immediately respond
with military action even in countries where people protest which have nothing
to do with the US and they are being portrayed as the heroes.

It's funny how the HK protests and the immense media coverage coincide with
the trade war escalations between the US and China.

Even this forum is being gamed by people who come here and specifically post
and upvote a narrative which they want to push on us. Anyone who doesn't see
through this bs is naive.

~~~
willis936
Why would mainland China do anything? They have complete control over HK and
plan on doing what they did in 2014: waiting. In the default case they win and
they know it. If everyone in HK knows this too and wants change the protests
will continue to grow in size until mainland China has to come to the table.

Edit: also proposing that anything other than believing a stretch conspiracy
qualifies as “naiveté” is a waste of typing. People will come to their own
conclusions, as you clearly have.

------
9nGQluzmnq3M
Word on the street is that the airport is being cleared of passengers so
police can violently crack down on the peaceful protesters who have been
staging a sit-in inside for three days now.

------
xhruso00
Unfortunately Hong Kong can't be saved. Government officials are puppets of
Beijing and they are all afraid of their future. They want to avoid hard
labour and re-education camps...

------
pishpash
You gotta ask with a critical mind, why is it that things are going just fine
in Macau with the same One Country Two Systems setup?

~~~
pjc50
Macau is 1/10 the size with an economy mostly focused on gambling? Macau has a
significantly weaker democratic tradition having been part of the Portuguese
military dictatorship until 1974?

