

Advice needed: Intern at exploding startup vs. return to school - Miserlou57

I work for a tiny Silicon Valley startup that is likely about to make it big.  I won't say why, but I'm privy to almost all communications, and the big players we've been talking to lately and the interest they've communicated tells me a lot, and I think there is a strong likelyhood this company will likely have a few million at least within a year, with further potential beyond that.  I've been there for 5 months as an intern breaking even financially at less than $9 dollars an hour.  They have trusted me with so many things, and I've done so many little things that are hard to put a value on, from product design to dealing directly with customers, building and manning a booth at trade shows, to marketing and web design, to literally modifying the early products, packaging and shipping them.  I got an immense spike in traffic awhile back (10,000pageview/day - which earned the first online sale) and I have personally interacted with so many different potential buyers.  I pleased our first and only refundee to reconsider, and they will likely be buying more in the future.<p>They all really like me.  I've gone beyond what they've expected of me.  The CEO has already told me he wants me to remain their full-time since I know the product better than anyone else.  I am literally his right-hand man (okay, slave :P) fixing every tiny problem he can't do himself (website, his phone, you name it).  My boss has already told me if it made it "Apple big... or maybe not THAT big..." that I would be completely taken-care of.  I understand skepticism to such a statement, and with anyone else I wouldn't think much of it, but he built a successful business of 20 years before this and is one of the most stand-up guy's I've ever known.   I know and trust his character very well; I have faith in almost nothing, and I have faith in him.<p>My dilemma is I'm supposed to return to school this upcoming spring quarter far away in a different city.  I'm at a very critical point, and I've already pushed finishing school back a few years, so I'm in my mid-20s, and the heat from my family (and myself) to finish school is strong.<p>I would very much like to remain working with this company considering it's potential upside, but I'm not sure how to ask whether staying around would be worth my while.  This won't get "Apple-big," but it is definitely a potentially amazing opportunity that could rocket me places a degree would never really offer.  Worst case scenario, I return to school a few months later.<p>While the experience and potential foot in the ground floor of a new technology is great and all, my shit wage isn't going to do it for me.<p>I would really like to get somewhere around $15/hour for the time being, but I would't consider staying around if the possible BIG upside weren't a big factor.  Really, how do I ask for more 'reassurance' for putting my education (and life) on hold for a bit to help make this great?  My father has advised trying to get profit-sharing / stock, but I don't really know how to ask for that.<p>Any advice would be awesome.
======
mattquinn
The only person who knows enough info to make this decision is you; as a
university student myself, I understand your dilemma.

I will say that the fact that you're only making $9/hour at a company that's
supposedly about to go big is a huge red flag. If you've made as many
contributions as you say you have, then there's something very wrong. Either
you have failed to negotiate fair compensation for yourself, or the company is
banking that you will continue to break your back for the chance to go big.

The last time I made $9/hour was hauling bags of salt at a retail warehouse
selling pools. If I were you, I'd go back to school. $9/hour is not only
unsustainable, but a serious red flag regarding how the company views their
relationship with you.

~~~
Miserlou57
You bring up good points, but allow me to clarify:

I originally came aboard as an intern for such mentioned 20-year-old company.
The owner of that, my boss, is also an owner of this startup, and so all of
our efforts have gone towards the startup. My wage was negotiated months ago
long before anyone had an idea this would be where we're at right now, and I'm
confident once there is some revenue coming in I will get more pay. One
equity-holding position of the startup actually started out as an intern like
me a few years ago.

~~~
stephencanon
The point still stands. Why is a 20-year-old engineering company paying you
$9/hour? The coffee shop in town here pays new counter staff $14/hour.
Generally speaking, one does not pay someone who is as important to the
business as you claim to be so little, intern or not. Realistically, I see two
possibilities:

a) You're wildly over-estimating your value to the company.

b) Your boss is exploiting you.

Think carefully about which it is. Be honest with yourself. If (a) go get the
coffee like a good intern, then go back to school. If (b) ask for a more
reasonable wage and/or equity (if that's your preference), in the form of a
signed contract. "We'll take care of you" is worthless, no matter how
trustworthy the person saying it. If they actually mean it, there will be no
problem with getting a deal signed on paper.

~~~
Miserlou57
I definitely am not absolutely critical to the success of this company, and I
realize this, but losing me would still hurt them. It's really the experience
and knowledge I have with them that's valuable to them, and that would be hard
to reproduce with someone else quickly, especially at such a critical time
like right now.

Am I stepping up my game and responsibilities as much as possible? Absolutely.

~~~
stephencanon
Ok, then you need to ask for a raise. $9/hour is a wage you pay someone who is
completely replaceable; and even then only if you're a greedy bastard who
doesn't care about your employees.

A raise could come in the form of a much higher wage, or a combination of a
higher wage and equity, if you really believe in the company. You should be
getting a significantly higher wage either way, though.

------
derekja
You can always go back to school. Taking some time out on a startup where
you're trusted and valued is rarely a bad move.

You should play the school card as a negotiating point, though. I'm usually
very upfront in negotiations and would simply say "Look, I've got a lot of
pressure to finish school. I totally believe in this company and am willing to
put school off in order to join full-time, but you need to come up with a
compensation package that makes that worth my while. My priority is on long-
term compensation so I'm fine with a super-low hourly wage of $15 per hour in
exchange for equity. What can you offer me?"

~~~
aashu_dwivedi
I guess by now the founder would have read this thread , doesn't he read HN ?

~~~
Miserlou57
Heh, no.

------
c_t_montgomery
I was in this same situation. I worked for Lift (<http://lift.do>), partners
with the founders of Twitter/Blogger - the Obvious Corporation.

I couldn't sleep well for weeks, and it was probably the hardest decision I
had to make. It all boils down to what you want to do - the reason I went back
to school (I have 2 years left as well) is because I can work the rest of my
life, but the times I've had at school won't be available in 2 more years,
when my best friends have graduated.

The way I solved it was by flipping a coin. Heads - I'll stay; Tails - I'm
going back to school. If you have any doubts when it lands on either, I think
the decision has been made.

In your case, seeing you're in your mid-twenties and was going to return back
to school at a different one, that would be a heavy factor. I'd just make sure
you're taken care of and get all of the logistics worked out if you do end up
staying.

Good luck - let me know if you'd like to talk about it at all. Contact info is
in my profile.

------
Harkins
When they say that you will be "completely taken care of", they don't mean it
if they don't put it in writing. That means a salary, stock options or grants,
anti-dilution clauses...

The way you ask is, "I'm considering putting school on hold for this. Could
you give me a formal offer letter?" If there is any resistance at all to
putting promises on paper, or anything that will be determined "when the time
comes", don't accept. (Family pressure to finish school is a fine excuse.) It
doesn't matter if they're malicious or incompetent, either way you'll work
your ass off and get nothing. Better to take extra classes at school and
graduate earlier with your increasingly impressive resume.

------
paulsutter
Be a little wary of the offer to be taken care of if the company gets "apple
big" (ie, becomes the most valuable company in history).

0.01% of "apple big" is $50 million.

On the other hand, few startups have an exit of $500 million, and 0.01% of
$500 million is $50,000. Which might help you take good care of your dog but
you'd hardly be "well taken care of".

It sounds like you're in a great spot and you'll learn a lot. Everything is
your story says "delay school and stick around", except for the promise about
"apple big" which sounds deceptive.

~~~
Miserlou57
It was definitely not a promise. It was an if-statement. We all know it won't
be Apple big, but that was just a comment he made I think to convey a message.

~~~
Drbble
Yeah but the message was to sell you on a dream of heaven and earth but only
deliver a bit of earth in reality.

------
hodder
If you are delaying school, you need to be paid way more, or given substantial
equity. It really seems you are being taken advantage of.

------
jordhy
If you're making so little, why not ask for some equity? Then do a financial
evaluation, ask for a leave of absence in your college and perhaps give the
start-up a 12 month tryout. This short time span can give you the space for
adequate reflection.

------
gojomo
The red flag from the startup is that you're being paid a pittance for a
valuable role in what I presume is something technology-related. (And a
little, that the "old, successful" corp that originally hired/pays you may be
different than the one you're really working for and hope to benefit from, and
whose start-up nature is being used to lower your compensation expectations
below what an "old, successful" company should be paying.)

The red flag from the back-to-school option is that you haven't even mentioned
key details like your field of study or distance to a degree. (Are you a
semester from a technical degree that might help you shift specializations in
a desired direction? Or many semesters from a degree unrelated to what
interests you just to finish a checklist item with your family?)

I'd suggest: to be full-time, and to again (and perhaps forever) defer your
formal education, you need to be getting a legitimate full-time salary with
benefits _and_ stock participation. Full-time salary is quoted per year and
not per hour, and even divided by ~2000 hours/year should be higher than your
$15/hour target, given how knowledgeable and reliable you've described
yourself.

And if you trade some pay-now for hopes of pay-later, that can be formalized
(rather than be a strict article of faith), and the stock especially needs
come up front. ("We'll allot you some stock if and when this is successful" is
a way for the granter to capture more of the upside leaving you with more of
the risk.)

~~~
Miserlou57
Yes, it is very much technology-related.

I'm about 1.5 - 2 years from degree in engineering, which among other things
would be very useful here as well. I haven't really done any engineering while
here since I'm still learning, though I have watched and learned a lot. While
the degree interests me a lot, school was boring for me (but not too easy),
and I absolutely love what I'm doing right now.

Also, for what it's worth, a lot of money has been invested in the business,
but budget is very small right now.

Thanks for the great response, too.

~~~
Drbble
If you are 2 years from a degree in engineering you should already be doing
tech work not coffee, and earning $15-30/hr. Amazon and Google and those pay
$30+ /hr equivalent for interns writing code.

