
Why India's Mars mission is so cheap – and thrilling - leephillips
http://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-29341850
======
zizee
Why do people always pass judgment on spending on things they don't agree with
as if the money is destroyed. It's not like they pile all the cash onto the
rocket and send it to space.

Let's just forget for a moment that valuable skills and infrastructure are
being created for India in this process and look at where the money is going.

A large proportion of the expense of this mission goes to paying the wages of
domestic scientists and engineers in India. This money will in turn get taxed
and spent by the recipients and pumped back into the local economy.

As far as I can see it is a win win win.

~~~
donw
Exactly. Projects like this generate huge amounts of value for a country --
not only because they help to push money around the economy, in terms of
salaries and invoices paid to rocket-building companies -- but also in terms
of the skills gained by everybody that works on the project, as well as the
international capital of being a spacefaring country.

Right now, launching satellites in the US is a pain in the ass, thanks to the
combination of ITER[1] and the lack of a replacement for the shuttle.

If India can become a launch destination for US companies looking to throw
birds into orbit, that's _big_. Doubly so because it's not like they don't
have plenty of engineers. Hell, this might be the case already, and I just
don't know.

[1] okay, now EAR, but still.

~~~
jonwachob91
The shuttle was never primarily used to send Satellites into space... It was
used primarily for maned missions.

The Atlas V is the current standard for putting satellites into space.

Sierra Nevada Corporation puts a satellite into orbit almost once a week.

The pain you speak of is non existent.

~~~
leoedin
> The pain you speak of is non existent.

That's simply untrue. Access to launchers is _the_ bottleneck to satellite
development. Large institutional customers have access to space, but almost
nobody else does. The commercial satellite industry has been shaped by the
shortage of launchers, with satellites designed to be launched infrequently
with long design lives. As a result everything is tremendously expensive.

This is changing slowly with the advent of SpaceX and the develoment of
launchers by other countries. There's no reason launches can't be an order of
magnitude cheaper. The fuel cost is actually a minimal part of the cost of a
rocket system.

I work in the space business. Getting access to a suitable launcher for
smaller lower priority projects is hard.

~~~
TeMPOraL
> _with satellites designed to be launched infrequently with long design
> lives_

That's good and let's hope it doesn't change soon. We're already risking
Kessler syndrome[0], and allowing any poor schmuck to launch throwaway
satellites as a way to earn money is a huge, global tragedy of commons waiting
to happen.

[0] -
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kessler_syndrome](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kessler_syndrome)

~~~
nickik
Nowdays you can just launch anything, you have to prove that befor it dies you
can fly it out to another orbit or burn it.

~~~
TeMPOraL
But it still requires enough money that people won't be launching spacecraft
equivalents of leaflets, i.e. worthless trash that is an artefact of fierce
competition.

------
tn13
In the words of Vikaram Sarabhai, the founding father of ISRO:

    
    
        "There are some who question the relevance of space activities in a developing nation. To us, there is no ambiguity of purpose. We do not have the fantasy of competing with the economically advanced nations in the exploration of the moon or the planets or manned space-flight."
        "But we are convinced that if we are to play a meaningful role nationally, and in the community of nations, we must be second to none in the application of advanced technologies to the real problems of man and society."

------
gphilip
Eight months back, three scientists from ISRO did an AMA on /r/india where
they answered a lot of interesting questions and provided good insights into
the good, the bad, the hopes and the struggles at ISRO and of being a
scientist in India. That AMA will likely answer many of the questions here
about ISRO and its operations. For instance:

"All nations wanting to launch to Low Earth Orbits at low costs approach us.
Germany, France, Israel, Norway, Denmark, Italy are examples. Yes, despite
ESA. Because PSLV is a cost effective and reliable launch vehicle for
launching to LEOs."

And of course, Reddit being what it is, there were cute questions and answers
as well. Sample:

Qn: "Let's face it. You're definitely "cool" now. Were you "cool" growing up?
How was your school/college life in general? Do women dig ISRO scientists?"

Scientist 1: "Oh yes, cool all the way. I don't know about other scientists
but they sure dig me."

Scientist 2: "He's kidding. I know for a fact that he is more single than
Lance Armstrong's nut."

More here: "We are three ISRO scientists here to answer your questions -AMA"
[http://www.reddit.com/r/india/comments/1ujcmo/we_are_three_i...](http://www.reddit.com/r/india/comments/1ujcmo/we_are_three_isro_scientists_here_to_answer_your/)

------
stcredzero
I hope India and China pull off a Mars Direct style mission and beat the US to
Mars. The US needs another "Sputnik Moment" to get itself going in space
again. I mean for real, not as an esoteric form of federal "pork."

~~~
TheSoftwareGuy
If India really did make it to mars before the US did, we would probably
congradulate them, not try to compete with them. When the USSR put Sputnik
into space, the US's response wasn't because _oh no we need to beat them to
the moon!_ it was because the fact that they could put a satellite into space
meant they could also land a nuclear warhead on US soil.

~~~
efuquen
> not try to compete with them

I seriously doubt this. Sure, it wouldn't be seen as a threat, but it
certainly would be seen as a clear sign of America's decay in technological
leadership and capabilities.

> oh no we need to beat them to the moon!

Everything I've seen documented from that era actually points to this being
exactly the attitude. Sending satellites into orbit and launching ballistic
missiles with nuclear warheads involves a different set of skills then sending
humans into space. Sure you need to launch rockets in all cases, but life
support, pushing the extra payload (into orbit, and then the moon), developing
a whole set of extra skills (docking, space walking, etc.) It's just way more
complicated and expensive to send people into space and there was no military
advantage for either country to do it. Both countries wanted to beat each
other in a game of technological machismo, just plain old competition at work.

~~~
josho
It really depends what your source material is. Anything geared to the masses
will site US innovation and competitive spirit. Anything geared to the
political/military class focuses on how Russian rockets were superior to the
US, and that the US had to catch up and surpass the Russians.

If you take away the cold war background, many observers seriously doubt that
the Americans would have bothered going to the moon.

And yes, both countries wanted to beat each other in a game of technological
machismo, because they were convinced that the other side was going to be a
military aggressor if they didn't. That is something missing from today with
China/India, and why I doubt the US would care much if those countries space
programs surpassed the US.

------
paramendra
The pride in India right now is as if it won the World Cup.

~~~
r00fus
More like they scored a goal for humankind.

~~~
kesava
The wrong world cup. In India, it means the Cricket World Cup.

~~~
ptaipale
But unfortunately, nobody (outside the British Commonwealth) understands the
scoring anyway.

~~~
smcl
Not strictly true, Cricket is making a comeback in the US it seems:
[http://www.theatlantic.com/entertainment/archive/2014/08/cri...](http://www.theatlantic.com/entertainment/archive/2014/08/cricket-
is-catching-on-in-America-where-it-was-popular-a-century-ago/378683/)

------
mdemare
To all those cynics who bitch about the price of this space mission: this
mission cost $74M in total. India has a population of 1252M, and a per capita
income of $1500.

That means that after paying for this mission to Mars, Indians have still
$1499.40 left to spend on other things.

Now stop bitching.

------
bipin-nag
There are many point-of-views that one could(should) factor in to explain the
circumstances:

1\. Mindset due to poverty: There are many people below the poverty line so it
makes sense for the scientific programs to aim for the cost-effective
solutions not cutting-edge.

2\. Experimental: If it was your first space mission, you wouldn't exactly
load it with gadgets. Missions have a chance to succeed or to end in failure.
Investment would only make sense after tasting some success.

3\. Cost of living: If you are well-off in India, you may still be poor
outside of India. Cost of living is lowest in India
([http://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-
living/rankings_by_country.jsp](http://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-
living/rankings_by_country.jsp)). So cost of research and development will be
lower than elsewhere too(maybe not everywhere).

4\. Media attention(somewhat): It started with the headlines from British news
"We pay for India's rocket to Mars" which raised a lot of eyebrows in India.
Even though money from aid was used for intended purpose, it was questioned if
India needed the aid. (To me its not worth the brouhaha. They will fancy
paying for nuclear programmes next.)

5\. GDP: US GDP is the largest in the world. They can afford to spend loads of
money without worrying (lets say debt crisis was an exception). India has GDP
which is smaller by orders of magnitude.

~~~
akfanta
> orders of magnitude

I am not sure if you understand what that means.

~~~
bipin-nag
You should google it before asking
([http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Order_of_magnitude](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Order_of_magnitude)).

------
sid1992
Go to ISRO's website and look at the starting salary for an engineer. Even for
the most paid fields there it is not more than 40000 rupees per month or
roughly 650 dollars

~~~
kamaal
I was downvoted very badly yesterday for just saying ISRO engineers were paid
less. Actually comparatively even compared to many Indian IT professionals
salaries of these folks is actually low.

Most people don't realize how low it is until you start comparing yourself
with people of your same age some 10-15 years in to your career who are
working with other software companies.

Any decent IIT grad joining something like Amazon or Google gets ~15L-18L per
annum these days, If you are from other colleges you can still get ~10L per
annum. And this is for writing some HTML or some application around a data
base. Heck even people working at IT services industry get paid around ~4-5 L
per annum, and plus they can always move on to some nice after a few years,
most do and within 8-10 years of their careers can reach atleast ~15L per
annum. Plus some people also get foreign travel opportunities. If you have a
good saving and investments discipline you can buy youself a home, a car and
may be a nice wedding and a good deal of gold within 12 years of your career.

To know how far those people who started their careers in the IT industry in
90's are, many are settled in the US. Many own 2-3 homes in a city like
Bangalore drawing insane rent income, Many own stock options worth money you
have never heard of. You can talk of Mars mission, pride and all that. But
when you see your college mate driving a Honda Accord and eating a 3000 rupee
dinner with his family after spending another 2000 on a movie on a Sunday
evening. You begin to realize money has its own importance in life.

Working in Government firms went out of fashion as early as mid 90's.

~~~
anupshinde
Aren't you discounting the perks? I agree some IT guys like me earn in
multiples of that - but most don't. And what about the amazing work-life
balance (more life less work), job security and "serving-the-country" feeling.
Compare that to a heavily stressful job, waking up at 3AM because some server
in SF stopped executing some code that was written in SF. And absolutely no
job security (I don't really care about job security). And constantly having
that feeling "What if I could make this amazing product for my country"

I'd exchange so-called-high paying job to get a job like ISRO now (Somebody
misguided me in my early days with the same logic you mentioned)

Obviously IT guys get paid a lot when they settle in US. I can tell you most
of these guys are skilled a lot and can do that with little effort - Nobody's
stopping them. And when they do, they earn in multiples than most of the IT
jobs there.

~~~
kamaal
>>Aren't you discounting the perks?

Most Indian private companies today offer free lunch, free transport and
health insurance. The days when only government firms offered these are long
behind us. If not free, most companies at the least subsidize lunch, food and
insurance.

>>I agree some IT guys like me earn in multiples of that - but most don't.

Eventually they will. Changing a job will easily get a you a minimum of 30%
raise in any company in India. Even a services company. If you change jobs
every 3 years you will still be way ahead of any guy working there. And also
note their hikes are largely based on a concept of 'pay revision' which are
generally once in 10-15 year activity. In that time even your average guy
would drawing at least thrice more than than any government employee.

>>And what about the amazing work-life balance (more life less work), job
security and "serving-the-country" feeling.

What you call work life balance, will look like stagnation 10 years into your
career. Job security will feel more like institutionalization and you
increasingly feel like you are stuck in a place from where there is no way
out. The difference in salary between yours and your peers will be huge and
they would have a lot more touch on any technology than you will.

And not to mention most private companies think of government firms as
wastelands where people just push time doing nothing.

>>Compare that to a heavily stressful job, waking up at 3AM because....

Frankly speaking to my ears this sounds similar to what many of my class mates
in school used to say about students who study late night working on physics
and math problems. Because they thought people were taking too much stress to
work on things they didn't have when they could simply have a garment or a
shoe shop and earn the same. We all know where they are today.

Money comes at a price. Like it or not my friend money matters. We live in a
society where we have to spend money buying things, send our kids to schools,
pay their tuition fees, we need to buy a home, car etc.

>>I'd exchange so-called-high paying job to get a job like ISRO now (Somebody
misguided me in my early days with the same logic you mentioned)

You seriously should. And there is nothing really stopping you. And you can
easily get through the exams they have. But the fact that most of us don't
shows us where our true priorities are.

ISRO is just one small island in the massive government bureaucracy there is.
In all likeliness you won't be writing any great application but rather
clocking 9-5 with your friends sipping tea in the canteen, cribbing about
rising prices, a senior colleagues daughter's marriage for which he hasn't any
savings ,pay revision which is 7 years away, and discussing lifestyle of a
friend who just bought a honda city while you are here saving money commuting
in a bus because petrol prices increased by 4 rupees last week.

------
someperson
(I posted a similar comment a few months ago.[1] To be clear I have nothing
against the India, its space program or its achievements, but it's impossible
to discuss the low price of the mission without discussing the elephant in the
room)

There is clear lack of sterilization techniques being used on the ISRO
spacecraft. This is clearly visible in the public photos and videos. NASA
spend a great deal of time and sterilizing deep space probes to reduce the
chance of Earth microbes colonizing a place like Mars, or a moon of Jupiter,
but ISRO does not.

Watch this video and showing assembly of this particular spacecraft
[http://www.space.com/23199-indias-first-mars-mission-
prepare...](http://www.space.com/23199-indias-first-mars-mission-prepares-for-
launch-video.html)

Compare the NASA cleanroom assembling Curiosity -
[http://www.nasa.gov/centers/jpl/images/content/482654main_pi...](http://www.nasa.gov/centers/jpl/images/content/482654main_pia13388-640.jpg).

Most engineers at the Indian Space Research Organisation seen directly
operating on the spacecraft are not using facial masks or even gloves for
interplanetary missions, let alone full cleanroom coveralls.
[http://www.thehindu.com/multimedia/dynamic/01608/vbk-05-mars...](http://www.thehindu.com/multimedia/dynamic/01608/vbk-05-mars_1608506g.jpg)
(via [http://www.thehindu.com/sci-tech/science/indias-
october-28-m...](http://www.thehindu.com/sci-tech/science/indias-
october-28-mars-mission-on-schedule-isro/article5204371.ece))

It would be a huge shame for us to have doubt whether the first extra
terrestial microbes we find in the solar system were really alien or simply
Space Age Earth based life

It also jibes with this anecdote
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6552078](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6552078)

    
    
      This comment has nothing to do with India, ISRO, politics or Mars, but I am curious if anyone with expertise can comment on the clean room practices seen applied in this video. Is it odd that the workers don't have on full 'bunny' suits and have (what seems to be) a relatively large amount of skin/hair unprotected? I don't know if it matters that much, it just seems a little lax given the cost of failure.
    
      Firstly, I've visited ISRO Bangalore(A few years back). And I did see the exact things you mentioned. I did ask the guy(Not sure, if he was the PR guy) who took our class for the tour. His answer was, they were likely assembling some test equipment and not the real equipment that was going to space.
      (Which unlikely given parent's NYT article:)
    
      The modest budget did not allow for multiple iterations. So, instead of building many models (a qualification model, a flight model and a flight spare), as is the norm for American and European agencies, scientists built the final flight model right from the start.
    

It's unclear whether the room is a climate and particulate controlled
cleanroom up to the standards required for inplanetary probes, but they may
(hopefully) do sterilization through chemical and heat treatments - but that
alone isn't enough for planetary protection.

[1]
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7964261#up_7964499](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7964261#up_7964499)

~~~
shas3
Curiosity is a rover. Rovers require cleanrooms for assembly for the reasons
that you just mentioned, since they land. I don't think this is an issue with
orbiters. For example, one of the reasons failing orbiters are of concern is
that contamination can be an issue if they crash into the surface. See
Japanese orbiter Nozomi, for example:
[http://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2003/11/29/national/experts...](http://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2003/11/29/national/experts-
fear-orbiter-nozomi-will-collide-with-pollute-mars/)

Using the expert rule, I can't imagine Indian engineers not being concerned
about contamination. It is such an obvious risk that it is probably one of the
first things they'd look for. I mean, there is 50 years of precedent available
to anyone working in this field.

Edit: Also, they may have done their work in non-cleanroom environments and
post that, they may have sterilized the orbiter.

Edit 2: Sorry for the multiple edits, but in spite of Hanlon's razor, I sense
an underlying bias. Here's another NASA photo of a satellite assembly, and
they are using ungloved hands:
[http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Mars_Reconnaissance_O...](http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Mars_Reconnaissance_Orbiter_solar_panel.jpg)

ESA Mercury orbiter: [http://sci.esa.int/bepicolombo/50304-removing-the-clamp-
band...](http://sci.esa.int/bepicolombo/50304-removing-the-clamp-bands/) (I
think there's a guy leaning over in the bottom left corner of the pic and
probably dripping snot on to the orbiter too.)

~~~
rzimmerman
In the MRO image it's hard to see, but I'm pretty sure they are wearing thin
white gloves (probably nitrile).

The ESA picture says its from a thermal and mass model, and the guy in
question is hovering over a test fixture.

I can't say much about the ISRO video. I hope it's just press footage of
something that isn't the actual flight unit. That would be pretty reasonable.
Later in the video you can see the techs wearing gloves pulling the vehicle
off a moment of inertia test. It's encouraging, but the fact that they're
wearing hair nets while half the guys have giant, uncovered beards is not.

With Curiosity, NASA even went so far as to aim the initial trajectory to miss
Mars. This was out of fear that the upper stage of the rocket, which did not
have the same amount of contamination control, would collide with the planet.

MOM's orbit is fairly eccentric, so it's not likely to collide with Mars any
time soon. I think we have a lot of time to study Mars before we worry about
any potential contamination.

~~~
TylerE
I've never seen white nitrile gloves. As one of the main use cases for nitrile
is avoiding latex allergies they are almost always colored (usually blue or
purple) to make it clear they aren't latex.

------
jgmmo
"They've kept it small. The payload weighs only about 15kg. "

Whoa... So basically that whole mission was for 30ish pounds of actual 'useful
equipment' in orbit?

~~~
mrb
NASA's MAVEN payload was just 4.3 times heavier (65kg vs. 15kg) but cost 9.1
times more ($671M vs. 74M).

So NASA is still 2.1 times more expensive per kg of useful payload. And costs
scale less than linearly with the payload mass, so a bigger Indian mission
would have likely been even _more_ than 2.1 times more efficient than NASA...

~~~
wodenokoto
What makes you think there's a linear relation between payload weight and
cost?

~~~
unclebucknasty
> _What makes you think there 's a linear relation between payload weight and
> cost?_

...or that payload weight is correlated with scientific value.

------
mataug
It feels like they've built a startup, put only the essential things in and
build a truly minimum viable product that works and that too quite well.

------
Rapzid
I believe this could be very good for India on multiple fronts.. But I feel
the comparison to NASA's spending is somewhat superficial and borderline
disingenuous.

------
chintan39
I think its because Indian Organizations know how to utilize their resources
efficiently.

------
idreams
proud to be an Indian!!

~~~
tomp
Did you do anything to contribute? If not, then there's nothing you can be
proud of. It's like saying "proud to be white" when Neil Armstrong first
stepped on the moon.

~~~
cjcole
Shifting "Indian" (nationality) to "white" (racial grouping) in your analogy
is disingenuous and inflammatory.

Policing other people's entirely natural and unobjectionable pride and joy is
annoying and tiresome.

("American" would have been a better substitution, but maybe you judged it to
be less effective as a rhetorical hammer?)

~~~
tomp
> ("American" would have been a better substitution, but maybe you judged it
> to be less effective as a rhetorical hammer?)

Probably, but I'm not American, so I didn't think of that. The only other
commonality I have with Armstrong is being a man, but I don't think you would
approve of that any more.

------
kazinator
How about reliable electricity and water for your people, then Mars.

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_Resources_in_India](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_Resources_in_India)

"Water supply and sanitation in India continue to be inadequate ..."

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electricity_sector_in_India](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electricity_sector_in_India)

"Over 300 million (300 million) people in India have no access to electricity.
Of those who do, almost all find electricity supply intermittent and
unreliable."

~~~
palakchokshi
Ummmm you like posting links without thinking? Here are a couple of them for
you. You see the fallacy in your argument?

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poverty_in_the_United_States#Re...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poverty_in_the_United_States#Recent_poverty_rate_and_guidelines)

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homelessness_in_the_United_Stat...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homelessness_in_the_United_States)

~~~
dang
> you like posting links without thinking?

No personal attacks on Hacker News, please, regardless of how annoying
another's comment may be.

------
vithlani
I wish someone would write a headline like:

"Why 750 million Indian citizens cannot enjoy basic sanitation facilities
after 60 years of gaining so called independence of their nation"

Seriously....

~~~
abhididdigi
Seriously?

I gather that you are not an Indian, and if you really are an Indian then
either you are an illiterate about what's happening in country, or you are an
NRI earning in dollars in US who really don't care about India, except in
writing these snarky comments.

If you are not an Indian citizen, you still should know the truth before you
talk.

750 million Indian citizens aren't enjoying basic sanitation facilities
because of the corruption in India. There was a Politician who was a son of
Chief Minister who pledged more than 75 million in an election. This is just
one example of the amount of corruption in India. Every state in India are
filled with those politicians who are corrupt, and they own huge amounts of
Black money.

So, I don't see what is your basis in typing in useless comment, when this
money was spent as per the Budget allocation.

And finally, please don't write something unless you know the facts properly.
The basic sanitation of all Indian Citizens will be improved, if the Political
situation of the country is improved not by stopping Technological Advances.

Sometimes, if you don't have anything to contribute, it's better to close your
computer and get out than to write these kinds of comments.

~~~
vithlani
I cannot be "illiterate" about what happens in the country, merely "ill-
informed".

FYI, there is a category of Indians who are not NRI and it might surprise you
to know there are countries other than the US and....surprise.... currencies
other then dollars!! Oh wow!!

What has being an Indian citizen got to do with the truth?

I write what I write so that the rah-rah-yay-yay idiots like you could draw
their attention to the real problem in your country -- a civilization more
than 10,000 years old that still cannot fix basic sanitation issues, where
women are raped on a regular no-comment basis, where corruption is prevalent
from birth-certificate to death-certificates, where swathes of your population
are being driven to Naxal violence by the state as a means of defending their
homes, culture and patrimony from greedy corporations. In the face of the
staggering problems you face as a nation, shouldn't you turn your and your
peer's attention to them rather than trying to rejoice at "look white man, me
too MARS"?

You may also be surprised to know, "Technological Advances" have been advanced
enough for a couple of hundred years now to the point that sanitation, roads,
etc are a non-issue -- you don't need to go to Mars for that! Or perhaps
Slumdog tourism generates enough income for you to want to keep it that way?
[http://www.thebaffler.com/salvos/slumming-
it](http://www.thebaffler.com/salvos/slumming-it)

Down-vote me all you want, happy to give you my points if you make an honest
effort to understand the point I make.

You will also note that I post under my real name as I do not feel ashamed
about having an honest discussion under my identity -- how about you?

------
peter303
Indian labor is very cheap. Even cheaper in the Motherland.

