
How I didn't become a SoundClouder - tethys
http://vojtastavik.com/2017/07/09/how-i-didnt-become-a-soundclouder/
======
bitcharmer
Sadly this scenario is not uncommon even among bigger employers. I was with a
big investment bank abroad when after a few rounds of redundancies that I
somehow managed to survive over the few months I was with them, we were
finally told the situation was now stable and we have lots of work planned for
the next few years.

Hooray. Tell wife, terminate nursery contracts for our kids in our country of
origin, arrange moving our stuff to the country I was working in for good,
commit to renting a new apartment for the next 12 months, buy airline tickets
and lots of other expenses.

Then I get the news. The remaining few people are being let go. No apology, no
compensation. Just like that.

To some degree it's a game of luck, I guess, but I've been actively refusing
their offers ever since. Fool me once...

~~~
erikb
I hope so much that as many people as possible read your story. Don't trust
the word of people who profit from your trust. Don't bet your whole family on
your boss.

~~~
seasonalgrit
Agreed.

This is part of why it's important to attend to one's own financial security
-- if one doesn't have a safety fund (6 months of living expenses minimum)
that should be _number one priority_. makes all the difference when navigating
employment transitions.

I also really liked the suggestion elsewhere in the comments to negotiate in
the offer letter/contract 3 months of pay after the last day of work. I
haven't tried that but it's something I'll consider in the future.

~~~
jorvi
The 'six months of living expenses minimum' plus 'fridge+car+laundry machine'
fund get touted around a lot, but they ignore the reality that, while living
expenses have only been going up, pay has stagnated. Most families are barely
scraping by with only ~€300 a month leeway. Assuming €3000 living expenses a
month and a combined income of ~€3500 (removing ~€200 a month for random
expenses that always pop up), saving €18.000 would take 5 years assuming
absolutely nothing bad happens in the mean time. Add to that the
fridge+car+laundry fund and some bad luck, and you're looking at 8-10 years of
no-fun-expenses-allowed saving. As one would say: get real.

~~~
brookside
I 50% agree with this, and 50% can't help notice (in the US) restaurants are
full, it is common to have a recent iPhone, and 85% of vehicles on the roads
are newish SUVs.

Many people are scraping by on minimal income and have minimal expenses.

Many others are scraping by because their spending is out of whack with
income.

Of course, reining in spending doesn't address the societal stagnant income
problem. It only helps an individual not find themselves in a desperate
situation because of job loss.

~~~
bluedino
>> and 85% of vehicles on the roads are newish SUVs.

Average age of vehicles on road hits 11.6 years in the United State, which is
a new record. When you have low/under-employment people aren't rushing out to
buy new vehicles as they were in the past.

~~~
rhizome
> _Average age of vehicles on road hits 11.6 years in the United State_

This is like saying, "How bad could the favelas be? Brazil's population
density is 64ppl/sq mi."

------
michaelt
Early in my career, I thought I was always doing someone a favour by making
them a job offer. After all, I'm just giving them more options to choose
between, right?

Later I learned people who end up out of a job won't see it that way.
Especially if they've quit a secure job and relocated.

In my case I was on the fence about a guy I interviewed, I gave him the
benefit of the doubt, it didn't work out and I had to fire him. Hiring someone
just as you're about to have big layoffs is even worse, as the blame isn't
shared - it's all on the employer.

Now when I hire, I do everything I can to avoid this sort of mistake :)

------
DoubleGlazing
I used to work as a developer in a logistics firm.

For a short while it was going through some financial difficulties. It was no
secret among the staff, many of whom were jumping ship. Those that weren't
(myself included) were making plans to do the same.

Despite this the MD insisted on keeping the recruitment process going and
carrying through with the graduate recruitment scheme. His reasoning was that
he couldn't claim that his company was growing if it wasn't hiring. It was
deception plain and simple, but for this particular MD morals were merely
something he had once heard about.

Come the hour they did have to withdraw firm offers for both experienced hires
and five graduates. It was particularly nasty for the graduates as they went
through a ridiculously extensive recruitment process - including spending a
weekend away at a woodland activity centre where they were forced to do team
building exercises and climb a mountain in the dark.

Long story short, they kept the recruitment process going to make it look like
the company was doing better than it was.

It was brutal, but the MD didn't care. He was probably more worried about
where his next Merc was coming from.

~~~
jerrylives
Reminds me of my recent interview with Buzzfeed for a SRE position. It
consisted of

* A half hour introductory call with the recruiter

* Another half hour call with an engineer about the position

* An hour-long technical phone interview

* Eight hour onsite technical interview

* Coming back in for a final interview with the product manager and then a "work party" where I had to show a "lead" how to do regexes because he couldn't figure them out (this dude had been working there for four years)

So I did all that - including missing a day of work and thus pay - and was
told that I was the first person who actually made it through the whole
process. I then asked if that meant I'd be receiving an offer / moving forward
and they said no, because the team was "Still figuring out the interview
process" and that in the future they would be sure to think of me. I reached
out about possible remuneration, because I had already given almost 20 hours
of my time to them as well as actionable expertise. Still haven't heard back.

------
latch
As a layperson, I'm surprised this is legal.

First and foremost, why wouldn't you be entitled to whatever notice/pay your
employment contract stipulates? Even in an at-will environment, I imagine if
the contract says the employer must give you 4 weeks of notice, well, that's
what they owe you.

Furthermore, at some point, hiring people that you have good reason to suspect
you won't be able to employ must become fraudulent, no?

I'd talk to a lawyer unless the contract was never signed.

~~~
YorickPeterse
Typically in the EU (or at least here in The Netherlands) you can be fired on
the spot (without a notice ahead of time) in the first month (usually referred
to as a "trial month"). I suspect this is what SoundCloud took advantage of.

~~~
johnnyfaehell
I believe in Germany it's mandatory to give at least two weeks notice for the
first 6 months. I also believe they legally can't cancel the contract before
it starts, so notice must start on the contract start date. So he would be
entitled to two weeks pay.

Real question is it worth chasing them for it.

~~~
w458cmau
[http://www.kanzlei-hasselbach.de/2014/kuendigung-und-
kuendig...](http://www.kanzlei-hasselbach.de/2014/kuendigung-und-
kuendigungsschutz-in-der-probezeit/02/#flexibel)

Two weeks notice during probation period. \- What's more relevant:

If they actually signed a legal contract they also need to provide him with a
written and signed contract termination. As far as I understand a signed
contract exists and no written notice has been delivered. The notice period is
counted starting from the day of the delivery of that physical mail.

[https://www.anwalt.de/rechtstipps/die-kuendigung-vor-
arbeits...](https://www.anwalt.de/rechtstipps/die-kuendigung-vor-
arbeitsantritt-wirksam-oder-nicht_082667.html)

~~~
johnnyfaehell
It would be great if he turned up to the office saying "Legally I still work
for you guys and I've not been given anything in writing to state otherwise.
So... When do I get paid?" :D

------
pawelkomarnicki
> The challenge wasn’t trivial and I spent the whole weekend working on it
> (~20hours)

For this shit alone they should be burned to the ground. Why do recruiters do
these silly "homeworks"? Every time I hear this during a recruitment I'm like
"ooooh, so you just do a mass-casting, and see who's the most desperate?".
Nope, nope, nope...

~~~
romanovcode
While I agree that 20h working assignment is ridiculous I saw some serious
primadonnas while interviewing who declined to do a simple 15-30 minutes on-
site coding challenge because they have extensive github or whatever they told
me.

Needless to say those candidates didn't got hired.

~~~
hardwaresofton
Why even ask for resumes if you're going to ignore them? I also get very
annoyed when people ask about your experience, then in the very next breath
pretend none of it matters and you should do fizzbuzz.

If we as an industry don't trust/value the stated experience of others, why do
we continue to ask for it? Maybe tech companies should just stop accepting
resumes then?

~~~
hvidgaard
FizzBuzz is a great way to see if the dev experience listed is total bullshit.

~~~
bphogan
Not sure about that.

FizzBuzz is an interview question you just expect.

RosettaCode has every FizzBuzz solution out there. Tons of people know how to
FizzBuzz.

This is just "learning enough to pass the test" \- a canned answer like the
one you know you have for "How do you deal with multiple simultaneous high
priority projects?" or "What's your biggest weakness?"

You may be filtering out lazy lazy candidates with FizzBuzz. But just because
they can do it doesn't mean they can ship code.

~~~
dropit_sphere
What is the answer to those questions? I can Fizzbuzz in any number of
languages, but the first response that springs to mind for the others is "Fuck
off."

~~~
bphogan
Really? As a potential member of my team, I really do want those questions
answered because how you answer them tells me about your character,
personality, and thought process.

I don't care what your biggest weakness is. You could have severe OCD or
addiction. You could battle depression. You could be a chronic procrastinator.
None of those matter. What does matter is if you give a solid straight honest
answer, rather than some canned crap you read on a web site somewhere.

Same goes for how you manage multiple high-priority things. Every job I've
worked on, every team, it always happens that there are multiple high priority
things. Do you try to do them all and then crash and burn? Do you do them
half-assed? Do you fight to get priorities aligned? Do you call the sponsors
together and share information about the deadlines? Do you under promise and
over-deliver? Do you ask for help from your team?

The way you answer is often more important than what you answer. Unless it's
"Fuck off."

:)

------
asteinbr
I can't imagine that you don't get any compensation. Germany has good rights
for employees. I would contact an attorney for employment law. Maybe you can
get something. I mean you are in a very unpleasant situation.

All the best for you.

~~~
Jdam
It's not legal. I looked this up when I joined my company (in Berlin) last
year. Even if you don't sign anything but the recruiter says/writes that you
will be hired, this is already regarded as an "Absicht" (Intention) and they
have to compensate you for some time. Get a lawyer to sort this out. Will be
worth it.

~~~
degenerate
Would he need a German or US lawyer? Or is the general practice to get a local
lawyer and let them handle all the cross-border details?

~~~
MatthewWilkes
The contract almost certainly specifies that the choice of law will be German
law. Either way, it seems the author is based in Prague currently, so I'm not
sure how US law would figure into it.

~~~
degenerate
I thought SoundCloud was a US company?

~~~
pyroinferno
Soundcloud is a German company. Also, if a American company is operating in
Germany they follow German laws. That is why he would need a German lawyer.

~~~
cagataygurturk
Soundcloud is incorporated in the UK but German Law would apply in this case.

------
Sorreah
Having been in a similar situation myself I can sympathize. And knowing
companies just get away with it helps you realize that you should never ever
feel any loyalty towards an employer, potential or current.

~~~
pawelkomarnicki
Oh you're entering house of pain believing "companies are loyal" ;-)
Definitely NOT in Berlin.

------
Danihan
This is disgusting behavior from Soundcloud upper management, they need to be
held liable for breach of contract. How could upper management be allowing
recruiting at the same time they are planning massive layoffs. Ridiculous.

~~~
falsedan
This is completely fine business decision-making. The only feedback that
matters to people who make these sorts of decisions is money, so the only
effective action to take here is: 1. contact a lawyer who specialises in
workplace law & sue; 2. unionise and strike.

------
southphillyman
Very unfortunate and hopefully there is a way for the victim to be
compensated. I once worked at a financial instituion where they hired a bunch
of contractors for a project which didn't have an approved budget. Somehow the
budget was never approved and after a week or two all of the contractors were
let go. Many of them moved from several states away and left previous jobs. I
guess there is an increased level of risk if you're a contractor but I still
thought it was pretty callous to hire 15+ people from all over the country if
the budget wasn't a stone cold lock for approval.

------
expertentipp
OP got screwed eastern European style. Over here we have short sides of all
three sticks: no job security, miserable salaries, and non existent social
support. What's infuriating for me personally is that managers deciding to
fire oftentimes are employed themselves by a subsidiary in a country with high
job security (e.g. Germany, Sweden), playing with the EU's free movement of
workers in a very nasty and exploitive manner.

------
sheeshkebab
It’s bad, but not as bad as a making an offer to someone (me), having that
someone leave the country to finalize get the work visa and finalize the move,
and then cancelling the offer. That was not cool.

Oh good old times when I ‘trusted’ these mother fucking companies.

------
Clubber
So I believe the CTO referred to in the article is Artem Fishman from Yahoo
based on this article:

[https://www.musicbusinessworldwide.com/soundcloud-co-
founder...](https://www.musicbusinessworldwide.com/soundcloud-co-founder-eric-
wahlforss-switches-role-as-it-hires-cto/)

------
peternicky
I know this story takes place in EU but just FYI, this would be an unfortunate
but completely legal situation in USA.

~~~
tootie
Their CTO is 6 months on the job and moved to Germany for the job. He quite
possibly doesn't understand EU law. He also seems to have inherited a shit
sandwich and is being forced to eat it.

------
jakub_g
Honestly this is what scares me about moving countries to join startups and
small companies (and even established companies). It doesn't help that I have
3 months notice at current job - plenty of time for the company to dissolve
the contract.

In fact, a friend of mine did the very same thing (wanted to move to a Berlin
startup two years ago) and also he was terminated before he arrived. Don't
know how the financial side of the issue was solved though.

Regarding the notice period, regulations probably differ by country, AFAIK in
some countries notice is period is gradually increasing, i.e. on day 1 it's
measured in days, not in weeks/months. That complicates things a lot. When you
move countries, the company is in much more comfortable position for the first
few weeks.

~~~
ghaff
There's always a "grass in greener" risk for all sorts of reasons. And that
risk is almost certainly amplified for companies that are smaller/less well-
established/on rocky financial ground/etc. And, of course, relocating
magnifies the effect of those risks even more.

Not to say you should never voluntarily change jobs of course. But I've known
a lot of people over the years who have basically hopped from a stable
position with some degree of dissatisfaction into something that just didn't
work out from which it took a fair bit of time and effort to recover.

------
jaymzcampbell
This behaviour just further adds to my list of reasons I will not trust any
company no matter how cool they might try to act. A company is ultimately only
interested in itself. It's not your friend. The fact this guy was moving
country just makes it even more disgusting.

------
kevinmannix
This is unfortunate. I hope you find a new place quickly - having the rug
pulled out from under your feet does not seem to make for a pleasant
experience.

It's an interesting look into a management team convincing itself of a better
financial situation then what the actual situation was, and makes you wonder
how far down the chain any indication of impending layoffs / tight financial
situation traveled. I must imagine the CTO would know himself, but perhaps he
was given explicit affirmation that financials would be alright for hires like
this, until all of a sudden it wasn't?

------
valuearb
Don't give 20 hours of your life to a programming excercise for a job
application, unless they are compensating you.

If your new employer sets your start date 7 weeks in the future, keep
interviewing. You don't have a job yet.

I recently signed an offer letter with a firm that required a drug and
background screen and a start date 2 weeks out. So knowing i didn't actually
have a job yet, I kept interviewing, received two more job offers, and took
the best one. i called the first company the friday before my monday start and
told them i wasn't coming in.

~~~
rezashirazian
I personally enjoy programming exercises and have no problem spending a few
hours tackling these types of problems.

However I'd refuse to do it for free if it's obviously something they're going
to use in their product or if it's something that takes 20 hours to complete.

------
jbapple
The CTO who made the phone call appears to be Artem Fishman:
[https://techcrunch.com/2017/01/12/soundcloud-co-founder-
take...](https://techcrunch.com/2017/01/12/soundcloud-co-founder-takes-
product-role-yahoo-alum-steps-in-as-cto/)

------
willyyr
You should definitely consult a lawyer as i'm guessing you have a german
contract. Even if you haven't started but signed everything you have something
called trial period (Probezeit) which has at least a two weeks notice for
termination.

------
soci
> In the evening, I finally received a response from the recruiter. She was on
> the sick leave without knowing any details about the situation. She
> forwarded me to her manager.

It's very likely the recruiter was laid off too.

------
jackvalentine
I'd be interested to read that employment contract.

------
stevefan1999
long story a little bit short with details 1\. OP quit his original job and
applied for SoundCloud 2\. OP passed the code challenge and interview and was
recruited, its quite positive 3\. OP is about to relocate to Berlin but 4\.
SoundCloud then announced the layoff and OP was one of them! Just before his
contract is going to be activated 5\. OP is now unemployed, alone in Berlin,
frightened and hopeless

------
FormerSClouder
The OP should be happy. He may have dodged a bullet on work environment. Shady
is as shady does.

------
mkane89
WHY on earth is this FLAGGED!? it is important to draw attention to acts of
gross negligence, like this hiring at soundcloud, so that companies (1) see
the impacts of such irresponsible behavior and hopefully do not repeat
something like it (2) find help for him to get back on his feet immediately. i
am a current soundclouder (iOS developer) but was not part of the interview
process for him. i can vouch that the situation was awful well before he got
the offer, and they mislead him. the hiring should have stopped long ago, and
soundcloud has put peoples' lives off course in the short/medium term because
of their reckless hiring when they were running out of money. shameful

~~~
mkane89
hacker news has once again shown itself to prioritize being a home for trolls
more than a legitimate news forum that helps the community

~~~
randomerr
Welcome to a democratic voting systems. What people see as the new shiny is
what get voted in.

~~~
mkane89
ew, if only we can turn around the bro + gossip culture and actually focus on
important things for once in this industry

------
bambax
And now this has been flagged? Why???

HN should really implement some kind of system where flagged posts would be
listed, together with a reason (and maybe, why not, an appeals process).

~~~
mynewtb
And a way to vouch for posts, just like you can for comments.

~~~
detaro
You can vouch once something has become [dead], the difference between posts
and comments is that posts have the additional state where [flagged] shows but
they are not [dead] yet.

~~~
toomuchtodo
How much karma do you need to vouch?

------
mynewtb
Why is this flagged?

~~~
076ae80a-3c97-4
I'm going to go out on a limb and say that someone at SoundCloud didn't like
this appearing on Hacker News.

------
hardwaresofton
Maybe the empathy is misplaced, but this seems like 90% of airing of the dirty
laundry of Soundcloud and 10% of asking if anyone is looking for someone to
hire. I think you could have done the latter without throwing Soundcloud under
the bus _too much_.

Yes, they screwed you out of what was an accepted job offer, and you should
definitely do everything in your power to get anything that was owed to you,
after carefully reading the employment contract and researching your rights,
however I'm sure that CTO (and the company as a whole) is not having a great
time either. There was already cause for some reservations given the bad press
that was circling the company... Shit happens.

~~~
pawelkomarnicki
Who gives a fudge about "CTO having a bad time"? It was their duty to actually
keep head above the water, and maybe... not hire people knowing the shit is
going to hit the fan? Unless the CTO didn't know, then it's a completely
different level of indolence, and the company is going down, super hard, super
fast.

~~~
hardwaresofton
Right -- people sometimes fail, or make mistakes, non-maliciously. Even if
it's 100% the CTO's fault that doesn't stop you from being gracious -- It's
not like you chewing out the CTO is going to bring back the company's
position. If you think it was malicious (or you think the person should be
held personally accountable), file charges -- otherwise I think it helps to at
least think of the position the company as well as the CTO that's personally
delivering the bad news to you.

