
H-1B and L-1 Visa Reform Act - rawgabbit
https://www.grassley.senate.gov/news/news-releases/bipartisan-group-lawmakers-propose-reforms-skilled-non-immigrant-visa-programs
======
baby
According to the summary
[https://www.grassley.senate.gov/sites/default/files/document...](https://www.grassley.senate.gov/sites/default/files/documents/116.S.3770%20-%20H-1B%20%20L-1%20Visa%20Reform%20Act%202020%20-%20Summary_0.pdf)

* The bill would restore Congress’s original intent for the H-1B and L-1 visa programs.

* The bill requires employers to make a good faith effort to recruit and hire American workers before bringing in foreign workers and prohibits employers from replacing American workers with H-1B and L-1 workers or giving preference to H-1B visa holders when they are filling open positions. It modifies existing H-1B wage requirements, and for the first time establishes wage requirements for L-1 workers. This will prevent employers from using the H-1B and L-1 programs as sources of cheap labor and encourage the hiring of qualified American workers.

* The bill prohibits employers from outsourcing H-1B and L-1 visa holders to other sites unless the employer obtains a waiver which is available only in limited circumstances when the rights of American workers are protected.

* The bill gives more authority to the Departments of Homeland Security and Labor to investigate fraud and abuse in the H-1B and L-1 programs. It requires the two departments to audit employers and share information so that visa petitions are more effectively scrutinized.

* The bill would crack down on outsourcing companies by prohibiting companies from hiring H-1B employees if they employ more than 50 people and more than 50 percent of their employees are H1B and L-1 visa holders.

* The bill creates a new H-1B visa allocation system that gives top priority to workers who have earned advanced science, technology, engineering or mathematics (STEM) degrees from U.S. institutions.

* The bill increases penalties on those who violate the law, and provides visa holders with a list of rights before they enter the U.S. so that they are better protected against mistreatment or underpayment of wages.

~~~
baby
I'm not sure if this bill goes in the right direction.

I know many people on the H-1B and this is the problems that I see personally:

* if you are not married, you have to get married or break up (I personally decided to get married, even though I do not believe in marriage)

* your spouse cannot work. Many of my friends have had their spouse not working for years, and going crazy.

* they cannot change job easily, they can't even quit if they're burning out to take some rest time, some of my friends feel like they are basically slaves of their current company

* if they get fired (which happened to one of my friend who works at Uber a few days ago) then their life goes to hell

* they are hard to come by (I applied twice and didn't get it, had to leave the US and wait for a year and a half for a greencard to be able to come back)

~~~
pkaye
> * your spouse cannot work. Many of my friends have had their spouse not
> working for years, and going crazy.

I think that has not been true in a while.

> * they cannot change job easily, they can't even quit if they're burning out
> to take some rest time, some of my friends feel like they are basically
> slaves of their current company

That is not necessarily true either. I have worked with plenty of H-1B workers
who easily switched jobs. From what they told me their new employer takes care
of all paperwork.

~~~
thiagocmoraes
There's always risk of having your visa denied when changing jobs and plenty
of situations where you get in a really bad place with something out of your
control.

I know plenty of people that stick to a sub-optimal job out of fear of being
stuck out of the US.

Changing jobs is very stressful on an H1B visa.

~~~
claudeganon
In addition to almost every employer making illegal demands of H1-B holders
when they quit or are terminated (such as asking them to pay legal fees the
holders are not supposed to be responsible for). I’ve had friends dealing with
this multiple times.

Sure, you can get a lawyer to write a demand letter why you’re hoping to not
get deported before you find another job. And of course risk a reference from
that job or worse. But the whole system is designed to create indentured
servitude to corporations for foreign workers. Just put everyone who graduates
with an advanced degree on a greencard and call it good already.

------
product50
Personally, I think this is the right bill to support. H1-B and L-1 have
become tools used by Indian outsourcing firms to inject cheap labor into US.
Apart from taking away jobs from US citizens, this also has a negative side
effect of increasing visa competition (since there are only 65k visas/yr) for
students who are doing their higher education in US, often in the fields of
STEM - which discourages foreign students from coming to US. This bill fixes
this as it prioritizes H1-B and L-1 visas from candidates who have studied in
US vs. those who are applying from outside US (which is the route outsourcing
firms often take). So while there are more fixes to be made on the H-1B visa,
at least ensuring students who have studied in US have the first dibs at it is
a good first step.

~~~
ex3ndr
Sorry, but do americans really hurt by H1-B/L-1? I never heard about lack of
need for tech people anywhere in the world. Isn't world's universities produce
like 3% of required amount of tech people needed?

(Other points are valid though)

~~~
makoz
Here's an example where Disney replaced their IT workers with people on H1B

[https://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/04/us/last-task-after-
layoff...](https://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/04/us/last-task-after-layoff-at-
disney-train-foreign-replacements.html)

~~~
anonymousiam
Edison did the same thing several years ago.

------
pkaye
> Specifically, the bill would prohibit companies with more than 50 employees,
> of which at least half are H-1B or L-1 holders, from hiring additional H-1B
> employees.

~~~
yftsui
Seems like Facebook is gonna to be hit really hard, it has been H1-B dependent
for a while.

~~~
PhoenixReborn
I strongly doubt that more than 50% of Facebook's workforce is on H-1B visas.
This is really intended to stop TCS/Infosys/Wipro from bringing over cheap
labor to the US.

------
tschwimmer
Seems like they’re going after the head shop consultancies like Infosys and
TCS. Unclear what the impact on the rest of tech is.

~~~
PhoenixReborn
Yes, exactly. It's this line specifically that pretty much drives that home:

> Specifically, the bill would prohibit companies with more than 50 employees,
> of which at least half are H-1B or L-1 holders, from hiring additional H-1B
> employees.

The only companies I can see hitting this requirement are the Infosys/TCS
types. I highly doubt most of the rest of tech has > 50% H-1B employees.

------
dang
Proposed bills rarely go anywhere, and so are mostly off topic on HN:

[https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que...](https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&query=by%3Adang%20bills&sort=byDate&type=comment)

If they're evidence of some interesting new phenomenon (a la
[https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html](https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html)),
that could be an exception.

------
throwaway_12351
I think this is more or less just a political statement for the republican
base. These changes have been discussed for a long time, and conservative
publications / reddit have been calling for them since the unemployment
numbers went up. It's not going to have much impact, and as mentioned in other
posts, it only affects Infosys/TCS types consulting shops which were already
revamping their organizations to work around these changes since 2014. It's
election year, so not very surprising to weaponize immigration.

It's quite disappointing that the US has decided to politicize two core
pillars, healthcare, and legal immigration. I think both of these should be
delegated to a bipartisan body, like the judiciary.

It's also disappointing to see the senators miss an opportunity to revamp the
whole program. As an Indian, who did no go to grad school in US but worked at
one of the FANGs, I think H1-B/L1-B should be just scrapped all together and
every foreigner who graduates from an American university should get a green
card. It will hurt people like me from coming to US, but generally it will be
quite good for the US university system and the tech industry, and also a
blessing in disguise for people like me.

~~~
MR4D
> and every foreigner who graduates from an American university should get a
> green card

If you do that, aren’t you just making the issue of who can come into the
country for education the main problem instead of who can come in for work?

~~~
throwaway_12351
Isn't it a solved problem? US universities attract best students from all over
the world, from practically every society/country/culture. It's way more
diverse, selective, and productive to let universities to decide who gets to
come than a rule-based system via DHS.

~~~
lostmsu
You will have lots of departments or entire universities dedicated to giving
foreigners degrees for cash.

~~~
throwaway_12351
I am sorry if I come across any condescending, but that is how most of the
current masters programs are operated. Generally, masters are considered cash
cow programs that funds other research and also brings a lot of commerce to
the college towns. There are some exceptions, but most of them do qualify for
my hypotheses.

That being said, why is it a bad thing then? If the people are spending money
to get some quality education that can be regulated within United States, then
I don't see any downside in delegating the vetting process to the
universities. 4 years in the United States, one family visit per year and it
brings a lot of commerce to the country. If they don't perform well, then it's
always upto the university to make the judgement.

~~~
lostmsu
Because then universities are materially interested to let everyone in. With
job offers the company is both spending extra, and needs the candidate to
actually perform well in the position.

------
fmajid
The best way to combat outsourcers and other bottom-feeders is to give
priority based on salary (and enforce this by cross-referencing with the IRS).

This would also kill the financial incentive to hire H1-Bs for low pay.

------
archlight
i think US gov should set up H1B audit committee to audit all interview
records and summon HR head to testify on hiring practice in the big corp. any
fraud will be treated like financial fraud which results in prison term.

if students cheated in college and their parents are sentenced to 5 years, i
think HR head should be treated as same

------
sys_64738
Senator Grassley is third in line for the presidency. If Nov's election were
somehow delayed then President and VP would be out of office on 1/20/21 and
Speaker out of office on 1/3/21\. He would assume office and could execute an
executive order to make this act law.

~~~
votepaunchy
Senator Grassley is third in line for the presidency ... with Senate
confirmation.

------
vsskanth
Every once in a while a bill like this is introduced and people waste time
discussing it as if it's going to be voted on let alone pass.

This is mere political posturing, nothing more. Immigration bills are pretty
hard to pass.

------
mola
Isn't the only reason these visas are abused is the employee lock-in? Iean how
can these outsourcing companies pay low salary for these foreign workers when
there's so much demand for developers?

~~~
sftwdv
The low salaries are mainly because of the low quality of the developers
"imported" on H1B. There are plenty of options for good developers to transfer
their H1B.

------
Animats
It hasn't even been assigned a bill number yet. This is very early.

~~~
masonic
It's Senate Bill 3770 -- it's right in the links at the bottom.

~~~
Animats
Ah. Four cosponsors, three Democrats and Bernie Sanders. Not going anywhere in
the current Senate.

------
ex3ndr
So, everyone will switch to GC faster then?

~~~
ra7
No? This bill isn't changing GC quotas.

~~~
ex3ndr
I meaning that L1 and friends are quite often could be changed to GC soon. If
they put limit on number of L1 visas, they will simply became GC very fast.

I think they don't have quotes, this is not a lottery.

~~~
ra7
There's already a massive GC backlog for some countries (India, for example).
In some distant future where backlog is cleared, fewer number of H1B/L1 visas
could mean faster GC. Until then, this won't have any real impact on GC
timelines.

~~~
ex3ndr
it seems that quotes is for India and China mostly. They are quite special
since they account for most of applications.

------
nine_zeros
Doesn't even try to solve the root cause of any problems caused by these
visas. Freedom.

Just let them not be tied to their current employer. Allow them to switch jobs
with minimal bureaucracy and let them compete for better jobs.

Simply allowing employees switch employers without hassles will be enough for
even outsourcing companies to pay high wages - because those employees won't
suck it up. They'll leave for greener pastures asap, pressuring all companies
to pay higher and higher for everyone.

For all the talk of capitalism and free markets, we never seem to actually
practice it.

~~~
ianmcgowan
That would definitely improve the lot of the H1B employee, and probably have
an indirect effect on the companies involved to discourage H1B's (though I
imagine they would recreate the ties with contracts, using things like signing
bonuses and relocation reimbursement to keep people stuck in the current job).
But it doesn't do anything to address the goal of this bill which is to
prevent abuses of the H1B program, and "protect American workers".

~~~
slaymaker1907
It does help protect American workers by raising the H1-B salaries and thus
lessening the downward pressure currently caused by the program.

------
dntbnmpls
I don't see how anyone can support this from a moral perspective.

Firstly, if we are not producing enough "talented" people, then we should be
investing on producing more "talented" people rather than bringing them from
overseas. If companies can just bring in foreigners to undercut american
workers then what incentive is there for companies and local/state/federal
governments to invest in american workers/people.

Secondly, if we are stealing "talented" people from other countries, how fair
is it to these countries that need these people to develop. Isn't it amoral
for a wealthy nation to steal resources from a poor nation just so that some
billionaire can get cheaper workers and/or suppress wages? And if poor
countries realize that their "talented" people are going to be taken by
wealthy nations, then what incentive is there for these countries to invest in
and develop their own people?

If politicians supports this, then I propose we also open up these elected
positions to foreigners. Let foreigners run for the senate, house and
presidency. Lets see how they like it. Let them also bid for the wages as
well. Don't see a downside from where I'm standing as it can't get any worse
than the current political class we have.

------
elil17
Honestly a lot of the arguments about “importing cheap labour” are
economically shallow and ignore the benefits that immigration has for the
overall economy.

I recommend this book for a really detailed exploration: [https://www.smbc-
comics.com/openborders/](https://www.smbc-comics.com/openborders/)

~~~
darawk
There are good arguments for open borders in the equilibrium. But it's very
hard to argue that they're good for the people who's jobs are lost. This is
the classic median/mean reasoning error. Open borders are good for the
arithmetic mean person. They are not necessarily good for the median person.

For instance, the outsourcing of american manufacturing to China has seriously
heart middle America. There is no real way around that. It has arguably been
good on net for _the world_ , but it has been quite bad for those specific
communities. It's important that we fully recognize those tradeoffs, and not
imply that unfettered immigration is a universal good.

It is almost certainly good for 'the economy'. But it can be quite bad for
most of the individuals in that economy, and it's very important to
disambiguate those things. On balance I think I come down in favor of more
immigration, particularly high skilled, but I think it's important that we not
pretend like people aren't seriously harmed by it, too.

~~~
nraynaud
I am not so sure, without cheap manufacturing the midwest could never afford
their trucks, their tractors, their ATVs and their AC units.

Look at the difference between middle America and middle Portugal.

~~~
darawk
I don't think that's true. The midwest was buying trucks long before
manufacturing left for China.

------
CodeSheikh
The bill gives more authority to the Departments of Homeland Security...

Yeah. Right, no more jurisdiction to DHS on labor matters.

~~~
strictnein
US Citizenship and Immigration is part of DHS.

[https://www.uscis.gov/](https://www.uscis.gov/)

