
The forgetting curve explains why humans struggle to memorize - prostoalex
https://qz.com/1213768/the-forgetting-curve-explains-why-humans-struggle-to-memorize/
======
mattmanser
If you're interested in improving your learning, I can't recommend the free
course "Learning how to learn" enough:

[https://www.coursera.org/learn/learning-how-to-
learn](https://www.coursera.org/learn/learning-how-to-learn)

It includes a section about this. I've also found many of the lessons
applicable to other parts of my life.

~~~
DomreiRoam
Another free course made by the same team:
[https://www.coursera.org/learn/mindshift](https://www.coursera.org/learn/mindshift)

This course is more focused on how/what to learn to boost your career.

I liked both courses; they take 2-3 hours per week for 4 week.

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tsumnia
In Ebbinghaus' original work, it is simply about memorizing syllables.
However, that is only a small percentage of learning harder skills like
computer science (learning syntax), language (learning words), or even acting
(learning lines). The next steps would be to synthesize (Bloom's taxonomy) the
newly acquired knowledge in some way to facilitate higher levels of learning
(CS - problem-solving, language - conversational fluency, acting - character
work).

I think this is where Bloom's taxonomy (and the like) can help with decreasing
the decay effect. The mental effort requirements for memorizing are
considerably lower than those of levels like synthesis. In that case, factual
information can be lost (specific API commands), but more important elements
are retained (when/why/how to make API calls).

~~~
mannykannot
The sort of learning and remembering that is a part of understanding something
seems even further removed from Ebbinghaus' exercises with syllables. It feels
that when I am doing this sort of memorization, I am building some sort of
model (which also gets remembered, or perhaps it is more accurate to say the
model is the memory), and the model gets used in retrieving relevant facts. It
seems much easier for me to remember an arcane fact if it led to an important
or surprising insight when I was first presented with it.

~~~
tsumnia
> seems much easier for me to remember an arcane fact if it led to an
> important or surprising insight

That's where I think Bloom's can step in. Memorization is the first step, but
then its about recalling and applying the mental model. As you traverse the
levels, you eventually reach things like problem-solving and evaluating.

Ebbinghaus discusses spaced repetition, but I wonder if spaced repetition in
conjunction with Bloom's taxonomy is a better approach for higher level
learning than JUST spaced memorization.

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franciscop
The best resource I have ever found on the topic is this, which digs really
deep in the topic:

\-
[https://www.gwern.net/Spaced%20repetition](https://www.gwern.net/Spaced%20repetition)

That, combined with Frequency Lists (another really cool topic), is what
inspired me to create my own learning webapp:

\- [https://core.cards/](https://core.cards/)

Note: it's for me to learn, so login is a bit broken and you have to try to do
it twice for it to work if you want to test it out.

------
acd
The human brain could work the same as memristors. Memristors gets harder to
charge as they get full. Ie in the analogy that a young brain can easily learn
things but it gets harder to learn things the older the person as the brain is
full of information.

One also observes the same in AI that the AI learns more in the first
evolutions.

Also the same in Spaced repetition such as Anki and Memrise. Anki and Memrise
software must some how know of the forgetting curve.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spaced_repetition](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spaced_repetition)

Memristor
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memristor](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memristor)
Memristors mimic human brain
[https://www.eetimes.com/document.asp?doc_id=1264640](https://www.eetimes.com/document.asp?doc_id=1264640)

~~~
closed
> the analogy that a young brain can easily learn things but it gets harder to
> learn things the older the person as the brain is full of information.

I'm not sure this is true in general. Older people have rich semantic
connections that, if they can leverage them, allow them to learn things
quickly. But those connections can also work against them (e.g. learning to
drive on the other side of the road you get to keep 90% of what you learned,
but also battle against a strong, pre-learned bias).

------
dqpb
> _An unhelpful but common metaphor is that of the brain-as-computer, or
> computer-as-brain. The two things are often presented as working the same
> way. A brain “stores” memories like files on a hard drive, and software uses
> “neural networks” to learn like the human mind does. But the reality of
> learning is different. The computer won’t forget where the file is, and the
> neural network can only learn what it’s told to._

So many flaws packed into one paragraph.

> _brain-as-computer, or computer-as-brain_

That would be two different metaphors, not one

> _A brain “stores” memories like files on a hard drive_

Nobody thinks this

> _The computer won’t forget where the file is_

Brains don't forget because they can't find the file...

> _neural network can only learn what it’s told to_

The power of neural networks is that they discover patterns on their own.
Thats the whole f __*ing point of neural networks.

~~~
jerf
">A brain “stores” memories like files on a hard drive

Nobody thinks this"

If you ask them directly and they bring it up to conscious recognition, no,
approx. nobody thinks this.

However, if you witness people's actions when they set out with the deliberate
goal of learning something, they clearly act as if they believe they can write
something "once" to the "brain's hard drive" and retain it indefinitely by
sheer force of will, and that failure to do so is a moral or character
failing. Articles like this are important to correct people's implicit,
unexamined beliefs.

Of course if you've been on HN for a while, you've had spaced repetition of
the importance of spaced repetition (albeit perhaps not on the optimal
schedule), so you may feel it's very common knowledge. It isn't. Only a few
subcultures have heard of it; the broader culture is ignorant of these ideas.

~~~
neltnerb
I mean, is this really not common knowledge? I am having trouble coming up
with examples from my real life where people aren't aware of it. Sports?
Practice. Spelling? Practice. Theater? Rehearse. It's practically an automatic
response when people ask how to get better.

I don't think this is a mystical life hack, we do this with babies, children,
students, and I have never heard an adult seriously suggest that they can
memorize something in one go.

Well, okay, maybe the president and people with photographic memories. But in
general? If people decide they want to learn something they definitely are
aware it will take work and practice and repetition. Maybe they don't want to
do that work, but I doubt they're truly surprised when they don't make
progress.

~~~
austinjp
@jerf refers to "spaced repetition" which is a specific form of the "practice"
you mention. Basic practice is of course ubiquitous. Spaced repetition is less
common, but becoming better known.

Incidentally:

You mention sports practice. This is a really fascinating topic, possibly
different from mental recall such as spelling and theatre lines.

A beginner in a sport can practice in a very general manner, since anything
they do is likely to produce improvement. Someone who has just started
learning tennis may benefit from the occasional game of squash or badminton,
for example. Put another way, in problem space they are very distant from the
target, so any effort has a reasonable chance to take them in a direction
which is vaguely towards the target.

An expert athlete, however, must practice very specifically. They are very
close to the target: only movement directly toward the target is useful. The
tolerance is far less, the number of directions they can take is far fewer.

Additionally, the extremely fine control of the musculoskeletal system
necessary for athletes degrades slightly with absence from practice. The
specific activity must be regularly practiced to achieve peak performance, and
ensure the neurological specialisation is maintained. This is why
professionals must "warm up", to ensure the nervous system is tuned to peak
performance. (Avoiding injury is a separate and complicated issue.)

Spaced repetition is related to this, since athletes must indeed
practice/train. But the time element here is very complex, and unique to the
sport, the athlete, and much more. Frequency, rest, intensity, endurance and
more are in that mix. Add mood, motivation etc and it becomes almost
overwhelmingly complex. Possibly why some of the finest athletes aim to take
emotions out of the mix: simplicity and reliability. Perhaps!

A lot of this is still poorly understood, as it is with memory and recall.

~~~
neltnerb
I see, I see. That makes sense, thanks.

I'm also an athlete (I teach karate) and agree with your assessment. I feel
myself get worse at techniques if I don't exercise and reinforce the motions
at least weekly. I generally have the class do basically the same core
techniques at the beginning, then rebuild any lost reflexes in intermediate
drills, and finish with no more than three new (related) techniques per day.

There is never a time when anyone no matter how skilled won't benefit from
practicing even the most basic of basics once you're at a high level. They're
never quite perfect! In fact the more advanced the student, the more likely
they'll benefit from going back to the basics and really re-evaluating how the
basics work given their new expertise.

------
supertramp_
I truly believe the learning/memorizing process is different for each person.
For example I've been driving my car for more than a year and I still can't
remember right away in which side of the car the gas tank is located at. What
I do remember is that in every car, there is an arrow on the side of the gauge
which indicates where the gas tank is at.

~~~
taeric
Oddly, you may have trouble remembering because you know where to find the
answer. Simply put, you remember a more general answer to the same question.
It is not that you don't remember at all.

~~~
SketchySeaBeast
That has scary implications now that Google exists.

~~~
taeric
Somewhat. And it isn't just Google. Now that you have a cell phone, you are
probably not as good at remembering phone numbers as folks were 20 years ago.
I know I used to remember some numbers. Now, I barely remember my own.

So, same goes for how can you tell if it will rain soon? Well, used to folks
knew some tricks by looking at the sky. Some folks still know them. By and
large, everyone else is more accurate by asking their devices.

Want to know how far away something is? There is an amazing trick you can do
with your thumb and line of site. If you really want to know, though, get a
range finder. :)

And it isn't just memory. Consider how much weaker most people's arms are
today than they used to be.

------
spodek
> _forgetfulness doesn’t always occur (Princess Leia’s prison cell block
> number: AA-23)_

Sure, when it's the start of the Fibonacci sequence.

~~~
yjftsjthsd-h
Thanks, now I'll never be able to unsee or forget that. But you do make a good
point about the importance of linking/patterns in memory.

~~~
taeric
And naming them.

------
TangoTrotFox
I'm surprised this didn't hit on relational memory. In the latest edition of
stupid human tricks, people are often surprised when strong chess players, or
myself, can easily repeat the moves of a game, from scratch, after playing -
even substantial amounts of time later.

It's all about the relational aspect. Chess games are easy because they tell a
story in a strong player's head, and so to repeat the game you just tell the
story in your head again. That's why if you do forget a game, just being told
what the first move or two was is often enough to recall the rest of the game
- kind of like being told the first sound of a word you're trying to remember.

This is also why chess players can see a position and remember 'Ooo, that's
from Reti-Alekhine' or whatever. You see games and the people playing become
part of the story. It's like reading a page from a book and being able to say
what book it was. On top of that it's also quite often an extremely important
page, making such a demonstration even more trivial.

There have also been a lot of studies testing this stuff. For instance, one
briefly showed strong players a position that might actually occur in a
regular game and asked them to recreate the position. And they did extremely
well, whereas casual players did awfully. However, the interesting thing is
that when asked to do this for positions with the pieces on random squares,
strong players did not do substantially better than casual players. This has
been attributed to pattern recognition, but in my opinion it's more about the
story being told even on a single move - the ideas and possibilities. Again
the difference between trying to repeat the words from a page of book as
opposed to trying to repeat random words.

------
markshead
Our memory is a cache and each timed repetition increasingly delays the purge
date of a particular memory.

~~~
mlevental
citation?

~~~
kylerpalmer
I don't know about the brain acting like a cache, but synaptic pathway
weighting is thought to be modified by how often neurons on either side of it
fire near the same time. This is called spike timing dependent plasticity
(STDP). The seminal paper for this is:
[http://www.jneurosci.org/content/18/24/10464.long](http://www.jneurosci.org/content/18/24/10464.long)

------
megamindbrian2
I worked on an app based on this timeline like flashcards, it reset when you
get a card wrong. Https://www.studysauce.com

~~~
fao_
What's the difference between this app and something like Anki or Tinycards?

~~~
jonbarker
I've been looking for an (optionally OCR enabled) spaced repetition software
package that allows me to take pictures of flashcards, and then load those
into a standard spaced repetition algorithm, then render those either in a
browser or an ios app. Anki supposedly does this but in my experience it's
been hard to get up and running. Maybe something that just works with
something like evernote or onenote would do the trick.

