
‘Tesla killer’ Mercedes EQC flops with 55 units sold in Germany - jgotti92
https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-killer-mercedes-benz-eqc-flops-germany/
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turtlebits
What I don't get about the luxury companies making electric is that their
range is crap. Range matters for an electric vehicle, and I would expect a
luxury (non sports) car to have better range than a Leaf/Tesla 3/Bolt etc.

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pathartl
I don't think it's hard to see why. It's a $67k base price with only a 200
mile range.

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esotericn
Because it's a worse car.

The absolute minimum bar to hit for a car that's even roughly the same price
(say within 30% or so) is the range of the equivalent Tesla.

Bear in mind also, that this car would not give you access to Tesla
superchargers. I'm currently on a road trip across Europe and if I had to use
only the standard chargers it would have been far more logistically
challenging.

So to make up for that it should have significantly _more_ range than a Tesla,
because otherwise it's an inferior product in practice.

That isn't happening, and everything they make without that problem solved is
literally a waste of energy. A little Nissan Micra type car can have a 100
mile range and that's fine, it's a city car.

A big sedan should be able to drive anywhere - if it can't, it's basically a
stocking filler, it's going to be scrapped in 5-10 years.

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clouddrover
> _The absolute minimum bar to hit for a car that 's even roughly the same
> price (say within 30% or so) is the range of the equivalent Tesla._

It's not that simple. The Audi e-tron outsells both the Model X and the Model
S in Europe:

[http://ev-sales.blogspot.com/2019/12/europe-november-2019.ht...](http://ev-
sales.blogspot.com/2019/12/europe-november-2019.html)

> _Bear in mind also, that this car would not give you access to Tesla
> superchargers._

I always find this mindset strange. A closed charging network is not in your
best interest as a driver. The question you should be asking is why can't you
charge any EV on Tesla's chargers.

Here is a Volkswagen ID.3 charging side by side with a Tesla Model 3 on Ionity
chargers, exactly as it should be:

[https://imgur.com/a/Giue5hW](https://imgur.com/a/Giue5hW)

Other charging networks allow Teslas to charge on them, so when will Tesla
reciprocate and open their network to other EVs?

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esotericn
> I always find this mindset strange. A closed charging network is not in your
> best interest as a driver. The question you should be asking is why can't
> you charge any EV on Tesla's chargers.

I mean, if you're buying a car today, what matters is the charging network
that exists, not the one you theoretically might like to exist. I take real
trips, not dream ones.... :P

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clouddrover
> _what matters is the charging network that exists, not the one you
> theoretically might like to exist._

No, you're still trapped in this closed network mindset. What matters is that
multiple, interoperable networks exist, which they do. The Internet is better
than AOL.

Tesla's just not a team player. It's profoundly lame. It's fascinating that
people defend it.

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SloopJon
Strangely absent from the blog post, or the article on which it is based, is
the price of the vehicle. It mentions "numerous Tesla Model 3s", but I suspect
that this thing costs more than a Model X.

The other factor, of course, is infrastructure. What is the availability of
Mercedes-compatible chargers, compared to Tesla?

Edit: I stand corrected on the price. I don't know about Germany, but
pathartl's quoted US price, while quite a bit more than a Model 3, would be
less than a Model X.

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aguyfromnb
This blog is a Tesla mouthpiece. I'm surprised their articles get voted-up.
It's embarrassing.

Is the goal to be green, or is it to root for Silicon Valley?

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woodandsteel
Can you point to some general ideas or specific claims the website promotes
that are simply false?

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steelframe
I cannot imagine the product teams that designed the Audi e-tron or the
Mercedes EQC having sat down and said, "Let's build a car to compete with
Tesla." What they created did not attempt to meet Tesla's strengths.

Tesla understands that the thing that new EV owners really want is to feel
secure (read: range and chargers so they're not stranded) and to have their
newfangled electric cars feel "futuristic" (read: spartan interior, big
touchscreen, autopilot, OTA software updates).

Audi, Jaguar, Mercedes, et. al think that new EV owners want the same driving
experience they had in their gas cars, only with an electric drivetrain. So
they made their cars heavier in their pursuit of making the cars quiet, which
they accomplished quite well. They preserved much of the body styling at the
expense of drag because they assumed customers would want that brand identity.
They targeted the "non power users," in that they held back a significant
chunk of the battery from the consumer (~20% for the e-tron) so that consumers
in hot climates couldn't wreck the battery by habitually charging all the way
to 100% and letting the pack sit like that, which destroys lithium ion battery
chemistry.

Tesla on the other hand spent their complexity budget for the Model 3 on
extracting as much range as possible with as little expense as they could. As
a result, the car is significantly lighter, and anyone who owns a Model 3 can
attest to the fact that there's a lot of road noise. This is immediately
solvable with heavier materials, but Tesla understands that the first batch of
Model 3 owners strongly prefer the range over the creature comfort. And that
the first batch of Model 3 owners are less likely to wreck their battery packs
by habitually letting them sit overcharged for long periods of time. So they
can expose the full battery packs to the consumer and get that 20% range boost
over competitors who hold that back from the consumer.

2020/2021 is starting to get interesting with the Ford Mach E, the Volvo
Polestar 2, the LEAF Plus, the second-year Hyundai Kona Electric and Kia Niro
Electric, and the updated Bolt, together with the very rapidly expanding
Electrify America rapid charging network. Tesla will continue to optimize for
range and will likely keep a "stats lead" on the competition, but as range
anxiety starts to be alleviated the second generation of EV converts may shift
their demands away from range and toward other characteristics of the vehicle
such as the interior and road noise isolation. It will be interesting to see
where that goes.

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pathartl
I want to take a ride in a Model 3 just because of the reported road noise. I
bet it's half as loud as my Mini Cooper S. Whenever I get into another car it
seems like it's completely dead in comparison.

Also I wonder if road noise could be combated by active noise canceling.

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dv_dt
If you're going from maybe a high-mileage high-volume hybrid, or other gas
efficient compact to a Model 3, the driver is going to think the Model 3 is
quieter. If you're going from a conventional Mercedes/BMW to a Model 3, you'll
think the Model 3 is louder and a rougher ride.

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toyg
I think Mercedes is the wrong manufacturer to try to compete with Tesla. Merc
buyers are older folks and flashy people with more money than sense. They
don’t care one bit about going green.

~~~
brumm
As a German, I'm a bit curious why is this being downvoted. I had the exact
same thought (two anecdotes don't make anecdata, I know, but), let me tell you
why:

I just don't think there's a market for this here. No one in my age range (mid
thirties) or income level (SWE, comfy living in large German tech focused
city) would think of buying a Mercedes Benz, let alone an electric one.

For one, these things are expensive especially new, which the electric one
would be. If you're looking at it from the young-environmentally-conscious
angle, I don't think there's any trust towards Mercedes Benz to be doing this
for the right 'reasons,' i.e. not actually caring about the environment, or
going about it in a bad way.

They are scramblin' to keep up after sleeping through the electrical car
revolution and have nothing new to offer. Their approach and entire business
model is deeply entrenched in traditional gas cars.

Even if someone like me could afford the car (due to good job and income
matched to levels in expensive city), by living in said city, they wouldn't
need a car to go anywhere!

I just don't see people who could afford an electric Mercedes buying one
because people like that think global warming is a hoax, hate Greta, and buy
diesel cars out of protest.

I'm almost surprised they sold that many cars, actually.

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netsharc
Merc is actually targeting younger buyers with their newer models, like the A
class, which is competing against BMW 1 series, and are in the VW Golf segment
(pricier than the Golf obviously). Probably more for trust fund kids...

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toyg
The A class debuted in the late '90s, and has always been an utterly-
overpriced "hot hatch".

~~~
netsharc
But the 90's A-class were boring looking and surely not targeting young
guys...

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Nasrudith
Really that highlights another trend I noticed with rivalry and paradigms and
"being on the attack". If they have to bill themselves as the foo-Killer they
aren't and will almost certainly fail as they don't establish their own niche
even, let alone a good reason to choose them.

I wonder why it is failing /that/ hard though. Failure to deliver value for
their money? SUV + Electric not a good fit for the local market?

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aguyfromnb
> _If they have to bill themselves as the foo-Killer_

Who labelled it a Tesla killer? I don't see a source in this article. It's
simply a Tesla fan being self-congratulatory.

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solean
Why so bothered TSLAQ?

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aguyfromnb
Why are these baseless accusations allowed on this forum? Is this not against
the rules?

1\. I'm long TSLA, through a couple ETFs.

2\. This is projection. There's a constant parade of accusations of "Big oil
FUD" whenever someone says anything remotely negative. Meanwhile, it is known
that Tesla, and Elon personally, pay PR firms, private investigators and
astroturfers (sorry, "social media influencers") to control narrative. Read
the lawsuit depositions and financial disclosures.

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vardump
Electricity is very expensive in Germany, driving electric can actually be
more expensive than gasoline cars.

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throwaway4220
0.30 euro / kwh * 80 kwh = 24 euros to drive 220 miles

220 mi / 16 mpg for GLS 550 (similar size?) = 13 gallons * 5.25 euro/gallon =
72 euro

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercedes-
Benz_EQC](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercedes-Benz_EQC)
[https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/noframes/40761.shtml](https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/noframes/40761.shtml)
[https://www.globalpetrolprices.com/Germany/gasoline_prices](https://www.globalpetrolprices.com/Germany/gasoline_prices)

~~~
gambiting
I mean, that's not really a fair comparison. EQC is more like the GLC, perhaps
GLE at a stretch, and in Germany you'd usually get it with a 220d diesel,
those get 40-50mpg easily.

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Barracoon
The Model X uses 22.93 kWh/100 km. Electricity is € .31 / KWH. 22.93 * .31 = €
7.1083 / 100 km

The GLC 200d uses 5.2 L/100 km (best efficiency). Diesel is € 1.266/L. 5.2 *
1.266 = € 6.5832 / 100 km

So yea in DE it may be more cost beneficial to drive diesel than electric. If
you get a GLC 300 using gasoline it goes up to € 9.798 / 100 km.

~~~
gambiting
I guess it also relies on whether you can get any deal for electricity or not.
Here in UK I pay £0.15/kWh, but during the night it goes down to £0.07/kWh. So
as long as I can limit charging the car to nighttime, it's actually very very
cheap.

