
Launch HN: Frey (YC S18) – Laundry and Clothing Care Products Tailored for Men - thefreybrothers
Hey HN! We&#x27;re Leif, Erin, and Aidan, founders of FREY (<a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;livefrey.com" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;livefrey.com</a>), a line of awesome laundry and clothing care products tailored towards men (with a sustainable and philanthropic bent).<p>We started this out of a college apartment without the intention of it ever being a full-time job. We noticed that, although we were buying plenty of men’s shampoos, deodorants, fragrances, etc, we were still buying the same detergent our mom had kept at our house growing up.<p>A very small kickstarter rolled into a small appearance on Good Morning America, at which point we picked our heads up and realized we may have stumbled on a pretty big opportunity.<p>The laundry industry is outdated and commodified. There’s a massive ($430B) menswear industry and massive ($130B) laundry industry, and there’s a growing number of U.S. men doing laundry (55 million, up 23% from 2013). The laundry industry still seems to be missing this male demographic (and we feel this is also perpetuating this stereotype that only women do&#x2F;should be doing laundry, something we want to help break down).<p>There are striking similarities between this industry and other consumer packaged goods industries that have recently underdone large changes (like mattresses, eyeglasses, razors, contacts, etc), and we hope to bring the same change to laundry.<p>We focus a lot on giving back as well, both for personal reasons (we always wanted to create a company that made a positive impact) and also because it resonates with our demographic. Our products are safer for the environment, we&#x27;re a certified B-Corporation (meaning we meet rigorous standards of social and environmental performance, accountability, and transparency), and have a bunch of other positive initiatives we can talk about if anyone&#x27;s interested.<p>We&#x27;re excited to hear your thoughts on our idea!
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privacypoller
>> laundry industry is outdated and commodified

This tends to be the opening salvo for many of this type of "target market X
for segment Y" \- why do you think this is true? What's outdated, the way we
do laundry, or the elements we use? While you might argue doing laundry in
your own home is outdated, I'm not sure you can say the same thing for the
detergents and additives as a visit to your box store will readily show many
new products tailored to increasingly niche segments and use-cases.

If you're selling "axe body spray for laundry" that's one thing, but don't
tell me P&G is "outdated" when it comes to the science behind detergent vs. a
couple of guys in a dorm room.

>> there’s a growing number of U.S. men doing laundry

For themselves where they want a "masculine fragrance" or for their families
where mom doesn't want her delicates to smell like "New Jersey Turnpike"?

I get that you're trying to rebrand a commodity market via hip styles and
personal delivery, but find it a little disingenuous that you position this as
a better way to do laundry.

That said, although I'm part of the demographic change in who does laundry I'm
most definitely not your target market.

~~~
thefreybrothers
All great points!

\- We've long since moved past the dorm-room stage =) and P&G have interests
outside of making the best product possible. Concentrated detergent is
relatively simple to do, and much easier to use. So why haven't they pushed
this out? Very much might be because consumer waste allows them to sell more
detergent! (Why are there 6 fill lines on the cap, when line 4 is XL? What are
lines 5 and 6 for?)

\- Absolutely not AXE for laundry, that's brutal =( we're super pro-gender
equality, very focused on philanthropy and the environment, and generally just
trying to be a great company

\- Appreciate all the feedback, genuinely. Not being disingenuous, the vast
majority of our customers enjoy doing laundry more when using FREY. Seems like
a "better way to do laundry" then, at least by some measure =)

~~~
starpilot
> we're super pro-gender equality

I guess it's hard for me to see this when you're introducing a product that is
now needlessly gendered. I do think you're tapping a good niche for a
business, but I can't agree with it from a social equality perspective. I
think we'd be better off without men's vs. women's razors, the "pink tax" as
well. Now you're bringing in a "blue tax."

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starpilot
What kinds of testing/analysis have you done with your laundry detergent? As
you probably know, Tide has a vast amount of rigorous chemical engineering
behind it:
[https://www.acs.org/content/acs/en/education/whatischemistry...](https://www.acs.org/content/acs/en/education/whatischemistry/landmarks/tidedetergent.html)

~~~
jpalomaki
I think here's some untapped potential. Selling detergents to people who would
like to actually know all the "technical details" related to them.

~~~
lev99
Yes please.

I have Contact dermatitis, and there are irritants that trigger a negative
reaction with my skin in several common soaps and detergents. It would be very
valuable for me to know what compounds are in soaps and detergents so I can
identify what specific compounds trigger a reaction by monitoring my exposure
and symptoms. Right now the best I can do is say "I've had symptoms while
using products [product array] so I should avoid them." This makes trying new
products risky. I would much rather know what are in different soaps so I can
begin to tract the exact irritants. This would enable me to try different
products. Medicines and food require very detailed ingredient lists. It's
absurd that products like laundry detergents, soaps, and shampoos that come
into close contact with skin do not, because they are important for health and
are absorbed by the body.

~~~
thefreybrothers
Love this (well i don't love the contact dermatitis bit) but I love the idea.
Our ingredients are printed on our bottle and on our site, and we'd be happy
to try to help identify what causes the issues!

We have tested our products with dozens of people who have skin sensitivities,
and we always outperform the leading brands. Fragrance sensitivity is a
different issue, but because our products are basically a natural soap + a few
enzymes + a few other natural ingredients, the allergen factor is minimal

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ryanworl
You should evaluate the loading performance of your store. If you attempt to
use PPC ads to get traffic, many visitors will bounce because it takes so long
to load, and once it does load, it is not interactive for a long time. This
will make you spend more on advertising than is strictly necessary.

You're currently serving ~5mb of uncompressed JavaScript and are not using a
CDN for your root domain. I would start with those.

[https://www.webpagetest.org/result/180622_77_7b98a10a75ec84f...](https://www.webpagetest.org/result/180622_77_7b98a10a75ec84f739ae4a33da58b83a/)

~~~
aidanjporter
Thanks for the advice! Yes, we are actually looking into MaxCDN right now,
been between CloudFlare or MaxCDN but settled on the latter. All the best!

~~~
ryanworl
If you would like some help, feel free to email the address in my profile. A
current client of mine is a software company which provides an e-commerce
store builder used by thousands of entrepreneurs and online marketers.
Performance is my top focus for them.

~~~
thefreybrothers
Amazing, thank you for the offer! We are always looking for ways to optimize
all aspects of our business :)

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bpicolo
50oz of Tide runs cheaper than 16oz of Frey detergent. How much of the market
is open to such a premium on the pricing model (or is there another factor I'm
missing)?

~~~
thefreybrothers
A very good point, we're never going to try to price compete with Tide
(although our 16oz is concentrated and holds 32 loads). It's a large, and
quickly growing market. Consider the size of the premium cologne market- we're
just a better, cheaper, all-encompassing solution!

~~~
alehul
Interesting. Maybe you should consider 'diluting' similar to Tide, to present
a more accurate comparison? Most of us just look at ounces.

Additionally, I'd find using a new detergent to be an easier experience if I
was supposed to place a similar amount to what I'm already accustomed to.

Just some thoughts; I love the design by the way!

~~~
thefreybrothers
Really good points, i like the comparison idea! We need to make an Us vs. Them
landing page.

And our pump top is created to be super easy to use, just 6 pumps, no messy
cap, one-handed, etc =)

Thank you so much!!!

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catchmeifyoucan
I'm a man, early twenties, and I'll give you some insights into why I would
not buy this product and the things I consider when I buy laundry detergent
(in order of preference). I apologize in advance for the tone.

1.) Price - Your charging 16.00 for 32+ loads, let's assume I buy a top end
brand like Tide, that's 120+ loads for 17.50. Your product is 10% more
expensive for 400% fewer loads, you've lost me already. EPA approved products
(i.e. Kirkland Detergent) are also cheaper.

2.) Fragrance - This is the core selling point of your product. And that it
appeals to "men". I understand detergents can smell overly flowery, but there
are many that are very light odor that don't break the bank. Furthermore, if
P&G were to replicate your scent, then it's game over.

3.) Convenience - Your cap is a nice innovation, but it's nothing new: it's
like shampoo. Like with dish soap, I'm a user who probably uses more than
recommended, so 6 taps is a good start. However, I'll still probably use more
"just in case". That's just me. 40 tide pods are 11.00, and those are more
convenient if you ask me. I know exactly when I'll run out and have perfect
amounts.

4.) "For Men" \- My least priority when buying detergent. I've used Dove "Men"
care body wash before. I wouldn't smell much different if I used Irish Spring
or a "non-man" version. The only reason I'm willing to try the manliness
version is that both of them are on the same shelf. But if it's a 40% markup,
I wouldn't touch it.

I might not be in your target demographics, but I did want to share my
thoughts. Founder of [https://customer.cool/](https://customer.cool/)

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ulisesrmzroche
Reminds me of Lady Doritos or a random lifestyle brand on Shark Tank. I don’t
see the need for it.

Did YC really back this?

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rajacombinator
Seems cringey and indicative of the current state of SV, and web startups
running out of good ideas, that this is a YC company. “Rolled into an
appearance on GMA” ... give me a break. You’re well connected and can probably
make money selling an artificial product category to some subset of stupid
people, and will probably sell the company to whoever owns AXE for a decent
amount using the same connections. But is this really something you or YC can
be proud of, even after attaching whatever gobbledygook about gender equality
and B(S)-Corp?

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chaostheory
As a male who does the laundry, I don't understand this. Why do we need
laundry care for men? I don't feel anyone buys their heavily scented "mom's
detergent" anymore. They haven't been for years now. Unscented detergent that
has a smaller environmental footprint is good enough. Am I missing something?
What makes you guys better than say 7th Gen or Method?

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philip1209
Nobody wants to do laundry. A premium laundry product already exists - having
somebody else do it. I think that competition is tough. Plus, having to
separate my laundry and my girlfriend's laundry to have different scents means
double the laundry loads.

~~~
whitepoplar
Very true. I'd settle for a washer/dryer combo machine that actually works.
(i.e. you don't have to transfer the clothes, it all happens automagically.)

~~~
thefreybrothers
this would be pretty awesome, maybe that's next =)

~~~
whitepoplar
They already make them, they just don't work very well! :P

~~~
skookum
The optimal tub volume to wash a load is significantly less than the minimum
volume to properly dry the same load with blown-air tumble drying. It's
possible that without a leap to a different drying technology the dual-purpose
laundry appliances will never work well.

~~~
enervate
Isn't less better when hot air drying? In my experience when I've had very
small loads due to accidental spills they dry quickly. I do understand that
more water dilutes detergent, though.

~~~
skookum
> Isn't less better when hot air drying?

Yes. That's the point. The volumes I was referring to were the volumes of the
appliances' tubs, not the volume of the load. The assumption is that the load
is constant since it needs to go from washer to dryer.

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enervate
I buy the tide unscented stuff, and its cheaper per unit, and I have a
subscription set up from target. Maybe Frey isn't for me, but I feel like its
too expensive. I feel like my opinion matters in this because I am a man.

~~~
thefreybrothers
It's a great point! We're not for everyone, and particularly if you don't care
about the fragrance, we're probably not for you (although we do focus on
treating your clothing better as well as making a positive impact).

~~~
brett40324
I dont think about what my clean laundry smells like, other than that it
smells like clean laundry. Ideally, though, I want my clean laundry to smell
like nothing at all.

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mlthoughts2018
As a man who is willing to pay a premium to try out stuff like this at least
to see if I like it or if I believe there is any type of quality improvement,
something that disappoints is that it seems to play to traditional male &
female fragrance stereotypes.

For example, I really like lavender scented things, and don’t really care if
it’s not traditionally masculine. But all these new “lootkit-like” popup
brands, like Birchbox or this brand, seem to pigeonhole the intended customer
base in a way that seems needlessly overly specific.

I guess I can’t argue if it turns out to be profitable for them. But I’d
imagine the types of men who would consider this in the first place are less
worried about whether this stuff looks Traditionally Masculine, like the
obligatory section of dark-hued, woodsy and musky products you see tucked in
some corner of a Sephora or the fragrance section of a department store.

Why not just focus on making nice, quality things of a wide variety, and let
people choose? Why does the business have to be fundamentally _about_ one
particular stylization of “masculine” home goods?

~~~
thefreybrothers
We actually very much agree! You'll notice we didn't use "masculine" anywhere
in our description. I wrote a lengthier explanation to a below comment.

As I said before though, the product is created for everyone, just tailored
towards men. We're simply trying to create an awesome product that give people
one more choice in the industry, and we're very excited to expand =)

~~~
psalminen
In what way is your product "tailored towards men" if it isn't using masculine
stereotypes?

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roymurdock
>There’s a massive ($430B) menswear industry and massive ($130B) laundry
industry, and there’s a growing number of U.S. men doing laundry (55 million,
up 23% from 2013). The laundry industry still seems to be missing this male
demographic

TAM = $130B

Liquid Detergent SAM = $3B

Male-marketed Liquid Detergent SOM = ?

As a (tech) market researcher, and a man somewhat in your target demo, I'd be
interested to hear more abt your mkt research both quantitative and
qualitative...do men really care abt what brand of detergent they are buying?
Is price the most important purchasing factor currently? CAGR of 4.9% [1] is
slow, especially since it's driven mostly by mkt penetration of washing
machines in developing economies, but I'm sure the CAGR in Frey's niche market
would be faster.

What are the profiles you are aiming at? From my perspective your core
demographic would be single or non-married, young-ish, working professional
types (similar to myself).

Most of these guys live in cities, and when I lived in NYC I used a corner
laundromat. Very cheap, efficient, good quality, and not to mention the apt
didn't have a washing machine.

Now I live in London with a gf, and we go for eco-friendly but economical
detergent to do our laundry. TBH not something I've ever thought much about,
or discussed with friends.

I'll be interested to see who your core demographic turns out to be - my
tongue in cheek guess is moms of teenagers demanding Frey because they saw it
promoted on youtube/instagram by their social media idols :)

My other real-er guess would be high-end corporate accounts - boutique
hotels(?), fancy department stores (give it as a sample with purchases of
expensive clothing and have it stocked in-store if the customer likes it).

I'm sure if you get enough traction P&G or Unilever will swoop in for the
acquisition...good luck!

[1] [https://www.happi.com/contents/view_breaking-
news/2017-11-28...](https://www.happi.com/contents/view_breaking-
news/2017-11-28/detergent-market-to-top-200-billion)

------
Androider
Frey detergent concentrate for men: Blended with essential oils, and comprised
of over a dozen individual scents. [1]

BBC: More evidence essential oils 'make male breasts develop' [2]

I'll stick with my no-fragrance detergent, thanks!

[1] [https://livefrey.com/shop/the-detergent/](https://livefrey.com/shop/the-
detergent/) [2]
[https://www.bbc.com/news/health-43429933](https://www.bbc.com/news/health-43429933)

~~~
sethrin
The headline in that article vastly overstates the significance and
reliability of this result.

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quadcore
I love it. I think it's a great idea.

Your product looks amazing on the photos. I'm not an expert though, but I
would put a male model right on front possibly doing laundry as it could be
very attractive. Also, I can see women buy this stuff for there men as a gift
(or mothers for their grown up boys leaving their parent's) - point being I
would try advertisement channels which audience is female too. I guess you
might have thought about that. Congratulation for the launch.

~~~
thefreybrothers
This is so nice to read! Thanks for the awesome feedback. We absolutely want
to expand to using models super soon, I think it's a great idea. And you're
dead-on with women purchasing! Super great idea, and in fact 30 - 40% of our
customers ARE women (a lot just buying for themselves as well!) You absolutely
get what we're doing here though, thank you so much!

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chiefalchemist
What I find ironic is it's said that women's shampoos, etc. are said to be
higher priced than men's - for what is the same / similar products - just
marketed and scented differently.

So are we now going to achieve equality by over-charging some subset of men as
well? :)

That aside, all the best.

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DanBC
Have you considered selling a fragrance free product, with add-on fragrance
beads?

This means a shared household can bulk buy the product, and each member can
use their favourite fragrence.

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olegious
If any of your products can help me get rid of the yellow ring around my shirt
collars, you have a customer (I hate throwing away $100 shirts after only a
year of 2-3 times a month wearing).

~~~
nomoreyellow123
FYI oxyclean is quite good at this, and so far hasn't damaged any of my
clothes including dress shirts. The key is to soak the collar in very
concentrated oxyclean solution (~1 full scoop or more per gallon) for several
hours, and then wash the shirt like normal. Yellow ring disappears. I've even
gotten pen ink stains out this way, which was incredible.

~~~
dnr
I just used oxiclean whitening for the first time and it made a bunch of white
shirts (dress shirts and undershirts) look nearly new again. Pretty impressive
stuff, and cheap too. Only downside is it made the fabric feel a little stiff
and rough after drying. Next time I'll try a little vinegar in the rinse.

Tip: get some rubber gloves to deal with the concentrated solution.

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s73v3r_
What makes this better than Tide? And what about laundry soap is "for men" any
more than regular laundry soap is "for women"?

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yobananaboy
Why isn't there a package with one of everything? That's the only thing
stopping me from going all in and just making the order.

~~~
thefreybrothers
You're a rockstar, would love for you to give us a try and provide feedback!
Give this a go =) [https://livefrey.com/shop/the-clothing-care-
kit](https://livefrey.com/shop/the-clothing-care-kit)

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wasd
I care a lot about the expensive dress shirts I'm now buying. Could you speak
a bit more to "BETTER FOR YOUR CLOTHING" aspect? I don't feel confident that
your product is much better than the Costco detergent I'm already getting.

~~~
thefreybrothers
Absolutely! We put a lot of effort into our formulation and the science behind
it. Most "main-stream" detergents use chemicals like OBAs & FBAs (brighteners
and whiteners), along with overly-harsh surfactants (soaps) and enzymes. These
are all created to give the initial appearance of a better clean, but quickly
deteriorate the fibers of your clothing, lead to color fading, and are
literally designed to leave layers of chemicals on your clothing. We scrapped
all of that, use natural, gentler surfactants and enzymes, all designed to
give a great clean and help lengthen your garment's lifespan =)

~~~
goatherders
THis is the education aspect that would convince me to buy your products.You
would need to convince me that what I'm currently washing my clothes with is
damaging them and then convince me that your product wont. I'm a guy that does
his own laundry and I don't care in the least about smelling of Timber or
having fluffy cotton in my sleeves. Make my clothes - my investment - last
longer.

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handbanana
Good concept, but not sure I’d buy any.

I couldn’t find the ingredients for any of your products, where are they?

I use Dr. Bronners Sal Suds for laundry. The product does everything you
describe yours does, and can be used for other things

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ljw1001
Frey is too much like Fray imo, which is a bad thing to happen to clothes.

~~~
kaybe
Frey is a Swiss chocolate brand.

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koolba
If you load this page without JS enabled the copy text is funny:

> 0%

> ....Of our customers like FREY’s fragrance over their old detergent

Or even better:

> 0%

> ...Of our customers are more confident about their personal scent when using
> FREY

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androidgirl
Hey Frey Team, I'm having a hard time reading your content with Firefox on
Android!

The text containers are overlapping on my phone, so I can't make out what it
says.

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zwieback
I couldn't tell from your product page - does it work for he-machines (use
less water, go up to 200F)?

~~~
thefreybrothers
It absolutely does! HE compatible, cold-water capable =)

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crsv
Early YC - Reddit, Dropbox, Twitch - products and services tackling massive
meaningful technology things.

YC now - Here's some expensive detergent for a niche audience.

I feel like YC is losing its mojo.

~~~
dsajames
Most new and better things start out expensive. Medicine, rockets, electric
cars, cars, etc.

If a new expensive detergent that's very ecological gains traction, it will
either drop in price or another company will mass-market it.

Compared to the usefulness of Twitch? I'll take an eco product that can be
used by everyone any day.

~~~
dsfyu404ed
That usually applies to things that are totally new or a complete reinvention.
They start out expensive and incremental progress or application of
knowledge/progress from other fields makes them cheap and common. This
detergent does not represent a fundamental shift from other detergents.

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throwaway82729
Is there a service for doing your laundry (at your home) and folding your
clothes?

~~~
brett40324
Cleaning / maid services all over offer this, on top of cleaning your home.

Edit: adding that the weekly price is rather reasonable / fair

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elvirs
for some reason prices don't show on my phone in portrait mode
[https://m.imgur.com/215bPTr](https://m.imgur.com/215bPTr)

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chillwaves
Finally, laundry soap that let's me be a man!

~~~
thefreybrothers
haha not trying to define what being a man is! But, if you've ever used a
cologne, you might find we're a cheaper, better, easier, all-encompassing
solution =)

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brandonmenc
I guess there's money to be made capitalizing on fragile masculinity. Is a
bottle of Tide too "feminine?"

~~~
wufufufu
My monthly subscription of beard products and enjoyment of craft beers define
who I am as a man

~~~
privacypoller
I too am a man, white and aged 26-35. For too long my opinions and demands
have not been heard by marketers. Finally I can influence the scent of laundry
detergent and have freshly cleaned clothing that smells of fox hunting, barber
shops and the peatiest of scotches.

~~~
thefreybrothers
See some of our above comments! Not trying to define masculinity, but if
you've ever used cologne, you might find you love us- a cheaper, better, more
all-encompassing solution =)

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rdiddly
Is it Frey as in Glenn? The H is O!

