
Linus Torvalds Excoriates Software Freedom Conservancy - linuxstuff
https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/ksummit-discuss/2016-August/003580.html
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sjellis
After more discussion, Linus says:

"Heh. Sounds like we do indeed end up agreeing here, there was nothing I
disagreed with in this email for example.

Maybe I read more into Bradley's saying than I should have, but it _really_
rubbed me the wrong way."

[https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/ksummit-
discuss/...](https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/ksummit-
discuss/2016-August/003625.html)

Bradley Kuhn later comments:

"In its more than a decade of existence, Conservancy has only participated
directly in one lawsuit (with Erik Andersen, over BusyBox), and helped fund
another one (Christoph's against VMware). That's it. We don't take a
litigation decision lightly, we do it very rarely, and only after every other
idea has been tried over a long time period.

That's my position, and my position on lawsuits hasn't changed since 2003. If
you thought my position was something different, you've misunderstood."

[https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/ksummit-
discuss/...](https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/ksummit-
discuss/2016-August/003620.html)

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scriptkiddy
I love Linus' no bullshit attitude. Sure, he can be an asshole, but at least
he is honest about what he thinks. I agree with his position on this subject
as well.

~~~
catpolice
"Sure, he can be an asshole, but at least he is honest about what he thinks."

I hear this kind of thing a lot - the implication seems to be that the speaker
believes that not acting like an asshole requires being dishonest about your
own thoughts. Which seems to say a lot more about the speaker than they
perhaps realize.

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cmurf
It's worth reading the followups for different perspectives. For example.

[https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/ksummit-
discuss/...](https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/ksummit-
discuss/2016-August/003585.html)

~~~
sjellis
This was really good advice.

I've taken the liberty of posting a key quote from Linus separately. The SFC
do a lot of important work and are currently struggling for funding. They
really don't need or deserve this kind of press.

The SFC aren't trigger-happy, and only sue when every other avenue fails,
which is actually one of the reasons that they are struggling, since they
can't recover costs if the license violator eventually starts to comply,
either avoiding a suit being filed, or stopping the suit before legal
judgement. There have only been a couple of instances where actual lawsuits
started.

~~~
cmurf
Yeah I tend to disagree with absolutist positions, and Linus' lawyers are
poisonous always position is just wrong. The SFC is more carrot than stick,
and the suggestion the only right way to handle license violations is through
carrot and honey all of the time is provably false. Stick has its role also,
even if ideally, and apparently in practice, it's rarely used. So I think the
blanket criticism of the SFC is misplaced.

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microtherion
_I 'm sure a lawyer can "understand" how lawsuits aren't actually something
personal at all, but lawyers really seem to be the ONLY people who
"understand" that._

That's an interesting argument, coming from somebody who regularly claims that
heaping the foulest verbal abuse on people is nothing personal.

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ivraatiems
OK, Linus. So without lawyers, you know, the people who understand the legal
system and matters involving legal instruments like licenses, how will you
discuss GPL enforcement? Without people who know how to argue in courts, what
will you do when sued?

Will the Linux Foundation be representing itself pro se from now on? Are you
going to send software engineers to explain to judges why they're smarter than
lawyers, that is, the group of people to whom those judges belong and most
clearly understand?

"Lawyers are all uniformly evil and scary" is a canard. So is "all lawsuits
are bad and unjustified." It is a gross misunderstanding of the legal system
and a classic case of domain knowledge not equaling general knowledge. Linus
Torvalds is a brilliant programmer, but as I've said before on this site, that
does not make him like unto a god, and it doesn't excuse him this ignorance.
Yes, sometimes lawsuits destroy. And certainly it is possible that the SFC and
Bradley Kuhn are just as bad as he says... but he is making no proposals about
what to replace them with. All I see is "boo lawyers suck" rhetoric and the
usual Linus Torvalds arrogance and anger.

> Lawsuits destroy community. They destroy trust. They would destroy all the
> goodwill we've built up over the years by being nice.

Goodwill means nothing when the law is being broken. It means nothing when
licenses are not being enforced. Lawsuits can be used and abused by The Man
(TM), big corporations or government or whomever, but they can also be used by
you to get recompense when you have been hurt. In fact, that's primarily what
they're supposed to be for. One day, Linus may need the people who don't take
litigation personally, who don't see it in terms of wrecking community but in
terms of protecting communities. He's doing a great job now of alienating
those people.

The stance he's taken will make corporate sponsors love him, for sure - but
that's because they'll see a guy who's scared of and angry at the system, but
who also doesn't trust it enough to seek help. They'll see somebody who'd
rather "be nice" and "build community" than protect what's theirs. (Ironic,
given how outspoken Linus is about not being nice.) Then, they'll take it.

(Edit: I removed a personal insult aimed at Linus. I need to practice what I
preach.)

~~~
chrisbennet
I didn't down-vote you but I don't think you "get it". Linus quotes Greg and
explains why approaching it with lawyers does not have the desired outcome and
offers example(s) of how effective the "behind the scenes"/"honey instead of
vinegar" approach has been.

 _" Goodwill means nothing when the law is being broken. It means nothing when
licenses are not being enforced."_

This hasn't proven to be true with Linux/GPL. Look at the real world examples
given in the article.

Legal action is a _tool_ but it is not the _appropriate tool_ to convince
another party to join you in a shared endeavor. You can "win" an argument with
your wife by striking her but you have to ask yourself, is that the best way
to reach your goal?

~~~
ivraatiems
You're right - legal action is not always the best tool. And companies resort
to it far more often than they ought to. But legal action != lawyers. Lawyers
get involved all the time to make sure legal action doesn't happen. In fact,
for civil lawyers, that's most of what they do.

It's the frothing-at-the-mouth, "we must NEVER do this," all-lawyers-are-evil
attitude that gets me here. If Linus had just said "I don't want to over-rely
on legal action to get things done, I want to make sure we are not hurting our
community relationships," that'd be one thing.

But the way he comes at it - like he does with so many other things - is so
inflammatory and my-way-or-the-highway that I felt a strong response was
required.

------
d0lph
For anyone else wondering:

ex·co·ri·ate

verb

censure or criticize severely.

