
Edge install undermines Microsoft’s argument that automatic updates are critical - butz
https://www.theverge.com/21310611/microsoft-edge-browser-forced-update-chromium-editorial
======
encoderer
Without respect to the facts, it's funny as hell to see this called "a new
low" when browser bundling is what got them sued by the United States 20 years
ago.

~~~
default-kramer
This is worse in my opinion. In the '90s, you could argue that precedent
hadn't truly been set yet. Now that case is almost common knowledge in tech.
They can't even pretend to have an excuse this time around. Until today, I
thought "Microsoft is doing pretty good." Now I want nothing more than to see
them sued/fined heavily for this.

EDIT: I can see now that I wrote carelessly. By "This is worse" I meant "This
is more blatantly illegal." Not "This is more detrimental to the world." The
'90s browser bundling was probably much more detrimental, but not unexpected
behavior. But the recent behavior was very unexpected to me. I had to use Task
Manager to kill it. I can't believe Microsoft would be so bold as to not even
give me some small, hard-to-read "no thanks" button somewhere.

~~~
hinkley
We weren't mad at Microsoft for bundling software. We were mad at them for
strangling out anyone whose shadow even looked like competition.

People with 10% market share are allowed to do a whole hell of a lot of things
that become illegal when you have 90% market share. I suspect this is part of
why monopolies are so uniformly recalcitrant. From their perspective, we
didn't have problems with them doing this 10 years ago, why are we upset about
it now when they have assets worth taking away as a punishment? It's just a
money grab. They're just winning and we're just jealous.

If I own a grocery store, I'm selling formula for below cost to get people
into my store. It's called a Loss Leader. If I'm the biggest formula maker in
the world, and I sell formula below cost, that's called Dumping and I will be
fined and punished if anyone can prove that I am 'too big' and that this is
driving competition out of business.

~~~
perl4ever
If there are major economies of scale to a business, what if it's optimal to
have a duopoly, regulated of course to prevent collusion? Maybe we need to
have more of a system for directly dealing with that situation.

~~~
thatguy0900
I think right now it's just optimal to have a duopoly because it protects the
bigger guy from getting in trouble for being a monopoly, and secures the
little guy all the leftovers. like Microsoft saving Apple from bankruptcy or
Google paying firefoxs bills.

------
gruturo
Aaaand it seems to have registered itself at some point as default pdf viewer,
overriding my previous setting. Not sure when that happened but isn’t it just
lovely.

~~~
prepend
The pdf thing is really annoying. I’ve reset it many times manually and
patched seem to keep resetting it to Edge.

------
aphextron
Am I alone in absolutely loving Edge? It has finally unseated Chromium for me.
It has all the benefits of the latest Chromium build without having to rely on
sketchy binaries uploaded to some website, or giving Google total ownership of
my web browsing. Sure Microsoft now fills that role, but they already own my
OS anyways, so I'd rather reduce my "privacy surface area" as much as
possible. Plus it has great built in privacy features like automatically
deleting all browsing history after every session, and built in adblocking. I
agree that the behavior outlined in this post is annoying, but the reality is
that heavily managed automatic updating is the future for consumer grade
software, and for good reason. If you're not a fan, just use Linux or an LTS
Windows release.

~~~
millennialist
Does it really matter? By nature, all web browsers are essentially the same,
with identical features, except some are open source and others are not.

~~~
zrm
They don't all have the same engines and some of what they do have is non-
standard.

Meanwhile from a user perspective some browsers differ in extensions and
configuration etc. So if you get a monoculture which causes sites to start
relying on non-standard features of only specific browsers, it makes it harder
for people to use or create other browsers that aren't bug-compatible with the
only one anybody is targeting.

The "fast iteration" browser makers like is also damage, because it causes
cruft to accumulate. Once you add a feature, sites start using it and you're
stuck with it basically forever. See how long it took to get rid of Flash. But
now they add features at such a pace that Chrome is now like 35 million lines
of code, all of which is attack surface which causes all browsers to have
disproportionately many security vulnerabilities.

Having multiple independent browsers requires new features to go through a
standardization process that requires buy in from multiple implementations
before sites can rely on them, which causes the changes to be fewer and more
carefully considered -- a good thing for something you'll be stuck with
~forever.

------
supernova87a
Probably some software VP got a directive from higher up to see to it that
their browser/software penetration stats are increasing, and opportunities for
tie-ins with other products too, so this is what you get.

I would guess it is not a customer-product integrity driven priority.

------
cadence-
New low? It’s par for the course for microsoft. They have been doing this for
years.

~~~
drewcoo
If it weren't par, a new low would be better, right? I don't do sports ball.

------
swayvil
Consider Linux. I recommend the "Debian" flavor, with a "Mate" desktop.

It's a no-brainer to install. It works exactly like all the other desktops.
And it's faster, more secure, more stable and doesn't try to sell you stuff.
It's also free.

~~~
techntoke
Manjaro is much better, or Ubuntu. With Debian you'll be lucky to get
acceleration support and constantly be searching for unofficial repos to
install modern software.

~~~
swayvil
I haven't tried Manjaro.

Last time I checked Ubuntu was becoming a bit of a pig and it had suffered
some kind of desktop disaster.

I have not encountered the problems with Debian that you describe but maybe my
needs (browsing, coding and light video editing) are just that small.

~~~
rusticpenn
You don't have to use the default window manager for Ubuntu. I used to have
Arch and Ubuntu LTS with i3 window manager. I found it easier to maintain
Ubuntu LTS with i3 as my window manager.

------
Wowfunhappy
If Windows 10's forced automatic updates were really being done just for
security, Microsoft would offer the option to use LTSC. It's a painfully
obvious solution—keep everyone secure, without changing their system out from
under them. Microsoft is producing the code anyway.

It's not about security.

------
megaman821
I am pretty sure that you get the browser prompt to switch your default
browser anytime you install a new browser (or any app the registers as a file
or url handler). It has your current default on the top with the other choices
below, I don't see what is so objectionable about it.

Now the full-screen splash page is obnoxious. There has to be a more tasteful
way to inform the user of a large Edge update.

~~~
AnimalMuppet
What's objectionable?

1\. _I_ didn't install it. _You_ (Microsoft) installed (actually updated) it.
And because you chose to update it, you think that gives you the right to nag
me again about making Edge the default browser? Edge was already on my
machine; I already answered that question. Stop nagging me about it.

2\. If I just want it to shut up and get out of my face, _it won 't let me
close it by right-clicking on the taskbar._

3\. It's slow to load, so I have to _wait_ for it before I can get rid of it
(or else use the task manager, which also takes time).

Yeah, I'd call the combination of those things "objectionable". I might call
it stronger terms, too.

~~~
genpfault
> (or else use the task manager, which also takes time)

Tried that, left an arrow pointing at the place on the taskbar where the Edge
window used to be. Wouldn't go away without a reboot.

------
MildlySerious
They hit that low for me when they did the exact same thing with Windows 10
upgrades. When people's PC eventually shut down to restart mid-work, because
they just minimized the upgrade pop-up instead of telling it "later" \- which
were the only two options to begin with. When this involuntary upgrade bricked
some laptop models. When they snuck a popup for either OneDrive or Win10 into
an important security update.

The whole point of an operating system is to work and get out of peoples way.
Every needless distraction is a design flaw. Microsoft has, time and again,
proven that they either don't understand or care about that and as such are
not qualified to be OS vendors.

------
imchillyb
I'm not a fan of the Edge browser.

I migrated away from Chrome -to Firefox- over a year ago and haven't looked
back. I don't want a re-skinned Chrome browser. I don't want Chrome. I don't
want Edge.

Please Microsoft, listen to your users and stop trying to shove your products
in our faces. If we want to try your products we will. If we don't want to use
your products, then your own guerrilla-style tactics are only hurting your
marketing efforts.

When people feel they have a choice, they're more likely to be satisfied with
the outcome. When people feel they're cornered, the experience is less than
satisfying and is almost guaranteed to backfire on the one doing the
cornering.

I hope you're listening Microsoft...

~~~
erklik
> When people feel they have a choice, they're more likely to be satisfied
> with the outcome.

Is this really the case? or is it more so that people want the illusion of
choice? Let's not forget that the other major OS in the world has you locked
into using one browser engine regardless of whatever browser you install i.e.
you have the illusion of choice but not really. Would people be okay if
Microsoft forced all browsers to use Chromium on Windows?

------
Godel_unicode
The actual article title of "With Edge, Microsoft’s forced Windows updates
just sank to a new low" is a better explanation of what the article is about,
imho. The word "throat" appears nowhere on the page.

------
ShaneMcGowan
Sure they needed to do this eventually since IE11 is coming to end of life
soon. This isn't as shady as it appears

------
unnouinceput
I don't have this problem. Firefox still my browser. No Edge in sight to do
the shenanigans described in article. I even ran manually a "check for
updates" and came back saying I am up to date.

But I have a local account, and I've disabled all of Win10 crap using WPD.
Maybe that's why? ¯\\_(ツ)_/¯

------
Jyaif
It's a dirty move, but it's an immensely lucrative move.

By switching users to Edge, they are switching them to Bing. The vast majority
of users won't notice the switch since Edge and Bing both look a lot like
Chrome and Google.

This will give MS billions of dollars of additional advertisement revenue.

------
shmerl
Be part of the solution - ditch Windows, switch to Linux and pick any browser
you want. Problem solved.

------
627467
I get that technically it is a new app and it is a browser... but edge has
been bundled (outside of europe) since... ever. So has been the dark pattern
of pushing for 'a better browser'. BTW, google does the same in their digital
'property' (they push for chrome - aggressively). Got no horse in the game but
feels like '90s-hate-m$' nostalgia. How is this news?

In 2020, can you tell me of an OS that doesn't nag you for updates or do so
'during down times'? Ahhh yes... an 'eol' android device from obscure (or not
so obscure) android vendor...

------
tinus_hn
Would be interesting to see how it pins itself to the taskbar and what
Microsoft is going to do if other programs start doing that.

------
throw7
The more things change the more things stay the same.

I'm imagining good ole bill smiling away, "that's a good boy satya."

~~~
stOneskull
i wonder if they play videos of bill at the ms board meetings. i imagine a
goat sacrifice to help them create their evil schemes.

------
throwawaysea
We need a revision of anti trust law as well as significant increase in
enforcement.

------
xadz
Though many web developers rejoice at the increased adoption rate leaving IE
behind.

------
megous
It's a good thing. Also please uninstall IE6-11, old Edge automatically. :)

Anyway, you can write the exactly same article about a random DLL/service you
never asked for somewhere in C:\windows\\* running in the background or
hooking into apps doing whatever.

This is what you get running a proprietary OS.

~~~
joshuaissac
There are lots of enterprise applications that will break in Edge and Chrome,
and only work in IE, e.g. anything that uses XML Data Islands.

~~~
mynameisvlad
Chromium Edge includes IE mode, which uses the Trident engine to render the
page:

[https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/deployedge/edge-ie-
mode](https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/deployedge/edge-ie-mode)

------
modmans2nd
....Microsoft pushed their new native browser out ....the horror!!!! I guess
we should be mad at Google and Apple for forcing their browsers on us too.

------
huffmsa
Great, now do one for Safari

~~~
AlexandrB
I don't remember (desktop) Safari force installing a new version, opening
full-screen undismissable popups, or setting itself as my default PDF viewer.
But ok, sure, Apple bad too!

Great discussion!

~~~
huffmsa
Can you uninstall desktop safari? How about mobile safari?

------
jah
How many months until Github only renders in Edge?

~~~
rbinv
No problem on your own site, just "npm install best-viewed-in-edge"!

------
simonblack
This isn't a 'new low'. Microsoft has always taken advantage of its monopoly
position to take control.

This is no different from the Netscape/Internet Explorer shenanigans of the
1990s. Trouble is, the new generation of computer users don't know MSFT's
previous history so they are "shocked!".

For the rest of us, it's just Microsoft being a dick as usual.

~~~
013a
The thing for me is, so much of Microsoft has shown serious improvements over
the past decade. You've got Azure's push in the cloud championing (at least
some) truly open source community-driven projects like Kubernetes (rather than
Amazon's ECS), you've got Office unveiling their new Fluid document format as
open source day 1, you've got WSL2, Xbox under Phil Spencer making a huge push
to find more equitable ways to satisfy both gamers' desire for more games and
developers' need for revenue with Game Pass, the push to bridge console
generations with Smart Delivery, the push to bridge console and PC with
unified digital licensing...

And then they do things like this. The Windows core team feels to me like a
clandestine shadow organization in Microsoft whose location is unknown even to
Nadella. Of course, that's not what's happening, and its startling to me that
no one has cracked down on them for this shitty behavior.

Its not representative of how Microsoft, by and large, operates today. It is
representative of how they used to operate.

~~~
snarfy
What makes me sad is it's not even necessary. I have complete confidence
Microsoft can turn chromium into a better Chrome than Google can. It would be
easy - integrate a real ad blocker. It's something Google would never do but
makes no difference to Microsoft.

~~~
dylz
What do you mean makes no difference? Microsoft runs Yahoo/Bing Ad Network, an
Adsense competitor, plus serves ads and telemetry all over.

------
solvorn
And that’s a good thing.

------
slowrabbit
You're using winblows, you gave up your rights as a user already.

~~~
techntoke
Pretty much. Closed source at it's core for people that can't be bothered with
freedom and don't mind being lab rats.

------
nojito
No different than what Google does when you visit any of it's properties.

~~~
charonn0
Visiting google.com doesn't silently install Chrome.

~~~
JohnTHaller
Chrome does use bundleware and dark patterns to trick users into installing
it. It's done this for years in things like free Windows antivirus, the Flash
installer, etc. I've had to uninstall Chrome from my mom's computer 3 times.
[https://imgur.com/gallery/WWZxj](https://imgur.com/gallery/WWZxj)

------
cryptozeus
This reads more like a hit piece. Just close the browser and use chrome ff as
default anyway. You are on windows platform, aren’t you ? This discussion was
already over and Microsoft already lost.

~~~
charonn0
You can't close it (easily). The [X] button, Alt+F4, Ctrl+W, etc. are all
blocked and you have to click a "Get Started" button to unblock it.

------
solarkraft
That Microsoft is going this way now is pretty interesting, because the
parallels to Internet Explorer seem pretty obvious - IIRC they really
considered putting a FUD messsge in front of the Netscape website (uncertain
about this, please correct if applicable). It looks like they have gotten too
comfortable again.

They have probably calculated the backlash and decided it was worth it because
most people actually just don't care.

It's going to get so much worse without proper regulation, the trend has been
clear for years.

