
Ask HN: How do you find time to learn new skills having family? - mac_was
I’m a hungry for knowledge dev, but have a family with 2 kids, one being 4 months old. How do other devs in similar situation find time to work on personal projects or just find time to learn?
======
tdubhro1
Stop feeling guilty for setting aside time to learn skills during regular
working hours. It took me a while to adjust, but it's utterly logical and
correct that technical people should explore technologies as part of their
work. When I became a manager I encouraged all my teams to set aside time like
this. I basically said: if the topic you want to learn more about is very
relevant to your current task, that's great, if not, that's fine too, if it
turns out to be interesting, put on a lunchtime seminar for the group so we
can all learn something.

I think as devs we all know that we will sometimes go yak-shaving just as an
excuse to dig into something we're interested in (or at least not return from
the rabbit-hole with any urgency), so I'd rather my teams do this consciously
and think about what might be useful or just fun and interesting to other
people on the team as they explore.

Family time should be family time, and if you're waiting for it to end so you
can get to your hobby project you're not going to be as present as you should
be. Also, it might work a little for the first kid, but when the second
arrives forget about it.

~~~
mac_was
I like it! I actually feel guilty when I spend time on my own interests at
work when in between sprints. Lucky guys who have you as manager, I do believe
that there are more managers like you, would agree for a dev to work on own
projects, but they do not tell their devs about it.

------
davestephens
Great question, and a situation I've been through/still going through myself.
I have a 2.5 year old son, and another due at the end of this year. We're not
fortunate enough to have parents nearby, so all care is 100% on us or nursery.

When they're really young it _is_ tough to have time for anything, especially
when there's no nap regime instilled into them. I was in such a daze from
learning so many new things about being a parent, that
projects/hacking/downtime in general seem to take a back seat for a while.

In writing (and rewriting) this reply I've realised that in the past few years
things have changed a lot for me, and when I can squeeze in "my" time has
changed too. I don't think there's any right or wrong answer of "when", but my
number one piece of advice would be to not be selfish. You'll kick yourself
later if you miss time with your children because you wanted to learn a
programming language, or that you're so tired from killing yourself with long
hours or sleep deprivation that you're rubbish to be around.

Communicate with your partner too - agree when they're ok with you taking your
time, and vice versa - insist that they time their own time too.

I have no idea what'll happen for me when number two comes along...but I'm
looking forward to it :-)

~~~
mac_was
Exactly I don't want to in couple years time regret that I've missed time with
my kids!

Looks like I need to wait a bit and in the meantime focus on my kids :-)

~~~
davestephens
Yep, it took me a little while to realise and appreciate it, but you're right.
Now my son is a little older he wants to do things with me too, and that would
be horrible to miss because I'm stuck in front of a computer instead.

I don't know where you work but as others have said - if you have a commute
that's also valuable time you can use. I used to burn all of it on Netflix,
but have recently started reading about stuff I want to learn/get better at.

------
vikingcaffiene
I think you first need to give yourself permission to find equilibrium with
your current situation. When I first became a family man I tried to keep up
with my old habits. The frustration and sleep deprivation that ensued caused
damage to my relationships with my wife and daughter that I regret to this
day. It wasn't until I decided to take a break and find my "new normal" that I
could then start to identify gaps where I could fit things like study etc back
in.

~~~
mac_was
That is a wise advise! I do not want to cause damage to our relationship as
well and struggling with my interests and hobbies as most times choose wife
and kids than my own interests.

------
muzani
Family doesn't get in the way for me.

You need a non-tech hobby. Family is perfect for that. Whatever your previous
hobby was, it's with family now. Travel with family. Watch horror movies with
family. Play tabletop games with family. Watch YouTube in bed, with the baby
under your armpit.

Then you need a tech hobby. Find something interesting to do. My kids draw, my
wife cooks, sometimes the kids play with each other and daydream. That's a
great time to mess around with new tech and algorithms. I've learned cheap,
fast website hosting, SEO, procedural generation in my own time in the past
month.

Also don't learn for the sake of advancing your career. Learn to be able to
build interesting things. Find an interesting problem to tackle, something
with possibly no economic benefit, then learn how to do it best. This will
actually advance your career better than trying to learn the next stack. Like
make CSS art, or do something like writing your own voice autotuner.

~~~
mac_was
I really like this response and the career progression tips, thanks!

------
codingdave
It gets better. When my kids were small, I did not do side projects or have
hobbies, or learn anything new outside of work. I did start to have more free
time after they no longer were toddlers. That period of time was almost 10
years from the first child until they all are were 5+ years old, but that is
now past history. Now, my learning, hobbies and projects have recovered. Some
day, it will be history for you, too.

~~~
mac_was
So it is until about 5 years of age. Good to know and thanks for sharing your
experience

------
saluki
There is always time even with little ones around.

Nap time is a good time to get some work/learning in.

Although when they are 0 to 6 months old it can be pretty exhausting. I once
was so sleep deprived I showed up to work with one black and one brown shoe
when mine was a couple months old.

I would recommend getting up an hour or two before your family and settling in
for some time to learn new things and work on personal projects. This can also
work in the evening or both.

Ask your spouse to trade up for some free time for each of you maybe give each
other a two hour block of time on Saturday and Sunday.

Do you watch TV, give up a TV show or go down to one show and use the rest of
the time for personal projects if you enjoy doing that.

Everyone needs downtime, and learning working on a side project is fun for me.
But take time for hobbies too.

And prioritize spending time with your family. Kids grow up fast so make the
most of your time with them. Don't try to work/learn when you're supposed to
be spending time with them.

I think that's why getting up an hour or two early are some of the most
productive hours of the day. No one else is awake in the house, no emails, no
phone calls.

Good luck carving out some time for yourself.

~~~
mac_was
Will definitely try waking up earlier but when the little one is older so I do
not wake up several times during the night when she cries for food. I managed
to do it just before she was born and absolutely loved the quiet house and
possibility to focus.

Growing kids is a concern and absolutely love spending time with them but
sometimes just need time to myself.

~~~
saluki
y, the first six months you are so tired, I would just focus on survival. Any
sleep is precious during that time.

Maybe try out giving your wife 1 or 2 hours for her time and she can do the
same for you.

------
gnfisher
There are no free wins here. My advice follows some of the others: during work
hours try to schedule time and have articles/books/videos queued up for
downtime after kids are asleep _when your SO isnt needing your presence
/company and you are truly up for it_.

Trying to get up early and hack your life will just lead to burn out and
family problems both. Dont do it to yourself, your SO or your kids.

Be present with your family out of work. Squeeze in 30min each morning when
you get to your desk to hack on something you read on the train in or at home.
Accept your situation and also realize that 30 min daily spent purposefully is
enough to make real progress in one direction at a time.

It is exhausting with two small kids and an SO and a job. Please dont kill
yourself trying to be super human. Accept limitations and live a better life
within them!

------
lubujackson
Dad of a 4 and 2 year old here. There is one effective way I have found:
schedule it. Literally slot 2 hours on Thursday night to learn something you
want.

There are a couple of reasons this helps. If you treat it as a serious and
valuable use of your time you will be more efficient in how you approach it.
Scheduling also lets you anticipate it and mentally prepare for being
receptive to learning.

It is important to protect that time and get buy-in from your partner so you
can fully shift gears out of parent-mode. The flip side of this is no staying
up extra late to noodle around then be burnt out the next day. Accept that you
are going to learn things slowly and it will stretch out much longer than you
might like.

~~~
bengkoang
I do this with my family too, the ones that really hard to accept is to learn
things slowly, it's really demotivating. So in the end i switch learning 2-3
stuff to keep it interesting

------
WheelsAtLarge
One way for you to learn is to teach your kids new stuff. Keep in mind that
you'll need lots of patience - never yell, act disappointed or rushed. Yes,
it's hard but you'll be very surprised how quickly they catch on. Kids may
seem like they are spacing out but they are constantly learning, even the 4
month old. You hear about the 12 year old computer geniuses. They don't just
appear. The parents have had a lot to do with that in many cases. If you start
now there will be a time when you won't be able to keep up with the kids. Just
set some time every day. It's a win win situation. They win. You win.

------
mceachen
Choose actions to minimize future regret.

Yes, it's a Dad-ism, but it applies to Dads too.

Your kids will be grown and gone before you know it. Really.

When you spend all day working and testing what amounts to a reminition
machine (see my profile), poring over images of your kids when they were
little, and your role in their life was outsized, I guarantee you won't regret
the time you spent with them.

I took mass transit for my commute, and that, and when the family was asleep,
was my time to learn.

~~~
mac_was
I wonder, did you start your YC startup when your kids were little?

------
jerleth
Hi, first off, I have kind of the same problem and I am also strugglig with no
spare time, even though I have only 1 kid and she is 1.5 years old.

If you are an employee than it's expected that you learn on the job and hours
booked on education will be seen by the company as an investment that pays off
in the future and it's also far cheaper than trainings, so your manager should
be glad that you do that - especially if there are no urgent tasks to be done.

On the other hand, if you are self-employed / working as a contractor like I
am, than you need another strategy, because anything beyond quickly looking up
stuff (like any real learning on the job - videos, tutorials, etc) are a no-go
as you are booked to perform. Usually if you are useful for your clients your
stream of todos is neverending anyway and there is no time to lookup stuff.

What works for me is that I don't work for clients on friday - for a lot of
companies it's a short day anyway and they won't miss you that much. I
deliberately pass on those billable hours, because I've found that education
pays more in the future and is more fun as well. So friday is usually the day
when I get my learning done. Just a word of warning - you need to protect this
day against your own laziness and your family as well. So put your headphones
on and hack away. Breaks are okay of course, but if you treat it like spare
time, everyone else will do the same and you won't get anything done.

Of course you can also work during naptime and in the late evening, but I've
found that I am pretty exhausted then and I am not that productive or willing
to pick up new stuff - so I usually do lighter work / light reading / watching
videos in the evening and leave the tough new technology for fridays.

I've priorized what I find valuable in life and that makes making decisions
easier. For me it's health, family, education, friends, other hobbies. For the
time being, I've basically dropped every hobby that is not for my health or my
professional education.

Take care, Martin

------
euvitudo
Once they're old enough, find hobbies or projects that can include your
children.

Bear in mind these hobbies/projects may not be in your area of interest--in
fact, your children will probably guide what you focus on (just don't force
them to be interested in what you're interested in). Regardless of the
subject, you can make it interesting to yourself.

Once they're grown, you'll have plenty of time to pursue your own interests,
and if you're lucky one of your children just might follow in your footsteps.

Mostly your children will grow to love the time you spent with them and you'll
be grateful for it when you look back. They'll be happy memories.

------
godot
I think the main thing to note is your young one is 4 months old, and that's
probably just not the time for hobbies or learning outside of baby caring
right now.

I have a 1 year-old now and I remember the time when she was 4 months old.
Even right now, we have little free time outside of the 2 hours after she
sleeps, before we sleep. This is after 9:30pm and by that time of the day
we're so tired that I find it hard to do anything productive outside of some
light reading. And on most days, those are also the 2 hours we get to discuss
family and household stuff (what things have come up, what things need
repairs, etc.) that we don't have time to talk about throughout the day, so
actual light reading time is maybe 30 minutes a day, and during the most tired
part of my day too so it's not like I can hope to write any code during it.

From what I've heard from friends, everyone is saying things get a lot easier
when their kids reach 4+ years old, that's when they actually see themselves
being able to have time to work on anything outside of work and kids.

So overall perhaps the advice is, life is long, and just spend time with the
kids in the next 4 years, and you'll have time to learn and code for hobby
projects again after that.

------
taf2
Nap time and as they get older they do their own thing and you gradually have
more free time which is mostly just lonely time so enjoy what you have while
it lasts

~~~
mac_was
Oh definitely! It is not that I do not enjoy spending time and playing with
them, it is the contrary to be honest.

------
nao360
When my kids were about the age of yours, I did the bulk of my learning during
the weekends; there was always at least half a day's worth of 'free' time
distributed throughout those two days. I can't remember if it was Trello or
Basecamp, but I used one of the online project/todo/card management sites to
maintain a list of ideas/links/bookmarks etc., during the week (this is a lot
of fun in itself, it's like filling a shopping cart!), and then worked off the
board over the weekend. I found this helped me to appreciate the progress I
was making -- it can feel quite slow-going in the beginning -- half a day a
week amounts to 2 days over 4 weeks. Inevitably, as you progress (as you start
to gain some proficiency in your new skill) you'll find yourself putting a few
more hours in during the week; excitement and creativity being the greatest
motivators! Good luck! It's not easy, but it's eminently do-able.

------
jonaswouters
For me, it was not lacking time, but lack of energy.

After the first one, it took 3 years before I had enough energy to pick up
side projects again, and then the 2nd one came and we were even more
exhausted.

Now 3 years later (6 years total) I'm finally starting a side project again.

Scheduling kind of works, but when you don't have the energy to do something
that you scheduled, it still doesn't work.

My hobbies have changed over the last 6 years. I picked up BMX racing with our
oldest, D&D/ttrpgs with new friends and reading sci-fi/fantasy instead of
watching tv and playing games (you can pause it anytime).

My new side project relates to one of my hobbies (lfg site for ttrpgs).

Being picky is necessary and having "meaningless" downtime to find your focus
is more important than stressing out and trying to do everything and nothing.

~~~
mac_was
Actually I haven't thought about switching hobbies, this is something worth
considering!

------
jlengrand
Im my experience, you DO have time still. It is more of a question of WHAT
STATE you are in when this time is there.

After having the baby and changing job, I found it VERY hard to find time to
learn new stuff or work on my side projects. The main issue was not time
itself, but the fact that I was exhausted, so used this time for brainless
activities like gaming or watching TV.

Reading `deep work` helped me a lot realize this and I am now doing better at
it. The first step is to recognize that you still have this time :)

~~~
adwww
Yeah I find after work and then helping with the dinner / bedtime routine, I'm
mentally shattered but still have the energy for a run or a bike ride -
hobbies I didn't have before having children.

------
ehonda
Once our baby was 6 months old, we were able to stick to a hard bed time
(7PM), hopefully the baby will be in bed by 8 (in actuality). Then you and the
wife have at least 4 hours of down time.

~~~
mac_was
And 4 hours it is as the young one wakes up around 12 for a feed. A hard bed
time is a good start but as you say it takes an hour or more sometimes

------
monkey26
With a kid or kids that age it might be best to take a break. When my first
born was 6 months I quit my full time job to do a startup. 12 months later my
second was born. A year later we sold the startup. Focus was the job and
family. Learning new stuff was out of the question. I had some catching up to
do when the kids got a little older but it wasn’t hard.

------
mrfusion
Unpopular opinion alert. Having a family is a new skill. Embrace it! Put your
other stuff on hold for a few years.

------
vmurthy
I was/am in a similar situation but with one kid. The trick I use is to use my
travel time efficiently. I travel by public transport. ~1.5 hours each way. I
read on my Kindle and note down thoughts/points in a physical diary. When I
come home, I give my undivided to my kid. Has worked pretty well :-)

------
armagon
I've been contemplating this question.

Fundamentally, there are never enough resources to do everything you want to
do. When it comes to time management, an important part is accepting that you
can not do everything you want to, and that life has different times and
seasons which have different priorities.

I'd suggest your priorities right now are: \- tending your children's physical
and emotional needs \- same for your wife; specifically, ensure that she gets
time away from the kids to do something that makes her happy , ideally a
little every day but certainly some time each week \- same for yourself; it is
reasonable and likely that you are up with the baby some nights, so getting
sleep when you can is a priority, for, if you miss a night of sleep, the
impact is similar to coming to work drunk and you may have a net-negative
quantity of productivity that day; consider having a catnap in the day;
consider having some personal time, going for a walk, a workout, or hanging
out with friends playing board games [but make sure your wife has had time
first!]

That doesn't leave much time for learning (or for side projects). You aren't
likely to be able to sit down at a keyboard and learn a new library or
technique. I'd suggest learning something different -- listening to some
audiobooks or maybe podcasts, while you are doing dishes, commuting, or out
for a walk.

One thing you might do for your sanity is have an untouchable hour every week
(or, perhaps, 20 minutes each day) and work on a project then. You'll
certainly lose some time trying to build back up the mental state for the
project, but may find satisfaction in moving something forward.
[https://getpocket.com/explore/item/why-you-need-an-
untouchab...](https://getpocket.com/explore/item/why-you-need-an-untouchable-
day-every-week)

The other thing I want to suggest is slowing down. I understand you are under
pressure to provide for your family now, and provide for growing demands in
the future. It is always good to aspire to be more than you are. When a jet
encounters turbulence, there is an optimal speed for getting through it, and
that speed usually requires slowing down. Sometimes enjoying a minute of
silence or some peace is the best way to use a chunk of time; sometimes you
need to be present and fight the battles of the moment with your spouse. [I've
heard good things about meditating, too.]

The seasons will come and go, and you'll be able to get more balls back into
the air to juggle, but for now, you need to protect the most important ones.

------
1337shadow
You should probably focus on your own health and little one for now. He will
eventually grow up, then, waking up an hour earlier than your family will make
up 7 hours per week for you to train.

------
em-bee
similar topics with additional inspiring comments:

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20363297](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20363297)
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10546797](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10546797)

------
tuananh
i spent time at work to learn new skill. felt guilty at first but think of it
this way: you finish your work already and it benefits the employer as well.
it’s win win

------
lukaszkups
I'm in exactly same situation and I'm gonna shamelessly share my blog post
about it here ;)

[https://lukaszkups.net/notes/organize-
yourself/](https://lukaszkups.net/notes/organize-yourself/)

&tldr; Organize yourself, and prepare that you'll want to sleep less (a bit)

