
Netflix Now Streaming AV1 on Android - discreditable
https://netflixtechblog.com/netflix-now-streaming-av1-on-android-d5264a515202
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dstaley
For once I wish services like Netflix and YouTube would announce that "we've
improved streaming video quality at the same data usage" as opposed to "we've
improved data usage at the same quality". YouTube's compression is _horrid_,
and Netflix's isn't much better. The quality between a 1080p BluRay versus
Netflix's 4K stream is quite noticeable, especially in darker scenes.

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batmansmk
I agree that quality is not satisfactory, Im not convinced that it is the top
problem to solve either. Let me explain: I read that video streaming was 50%
of Internet's bandwidth, itself was about 3% of worldwide CO2 emissions. It's
quite significant, and I would love quite the opposite of your reasoning: a
lesser quality to leave us, engineers, time to find a sustainable way of
watching videos online.

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spookthesunset
Why don’t you go beat up on useless technology which provably pisses away
energy (by design!) like the blockchain before you claiming consuming video
content on the internet is killing the planet.

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Dontrememberit
There's no need to get defensive over this. One can do both.

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tomsaffell
So many well informed comments here I have to ask... and please forgive the
spam... If you're interested in this area and might be be interested in
working at YouTube then please email me using the address in my profile. I
work in this area at YouTube.

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jl6
A 20% data saving but how much extra battery usage for devices which don’t
have hardware decoding for AV1 (which last time I checked was all of them)?

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ksec
Exactly. I am thinking if this is going to be some sort of play against VVC.

Or will Youtube and Netflix force AV1 upon everyone where if you want high
quality HDR or 4K Content you will require AV1.

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mikenew
I sure hope it's a war on VVC. I don't know why anyone would want a patent
encumbered pay-to-use video codec over an open free one unless you're a
stakeholder.

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ksec
>I don't know why anyone would want a patent encumbered pay-to-use video codec

Again AV1 is not Patent free either.

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M2Ys4U
But it is royalty-free. The patents are freely licensed to those
implementing/using AV1.

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rossmohax
When video industry is going step away from 24fps legacy? Judder on panning
camera scenes kills all the joy. That would be much bigger improvement than
switching to 10bit color.

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Negitivefrags
Unfortunately the fact that lower budget TV was recorded onto tape at 60fps in
the old days of analog television has effectively ruined high frame rate for
everyone.

Gemini Man just came out at 120fps in Cinemas and 60fps on blu ray and
regardless of your feelings about the quality of the film, I would have
thought anybody with eyes could appreciate how amazing the high frame rate
looks.

But no, it’s all people moaning about how it looks like a soap opera and “so
unnatural” (too lifelike).

It seems anyone who tries high frame rate is crucified for it, so directors
aren’t exactly incentivised to try again.

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ralusek
High framerates DO look like soap operas. It makes it feel like you're
watching a play, rather than a movie, and is extremely distracting.

When I go to to people's houses, and they have a newish TV, it will invariably
have frame interpolation of some kind on which effectively gives _everything_
an approximated high frame rate. I immediately turn it off for them, and it is
always met with either "oh, ya that was really bothering me" or "I can't tell
the difference." I've never had someone want it turned back.

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skrebbel
You're mixing up frame interpolation and original 60FPS content. That's not
the same thing at all.

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ralusek
No, I'm not. The frame interpolation is actually pretty good, and approximates
high framerate relatively well. It is the high framerate itself which causes
this effect, however. I've seen two movies in theater at high framerate that
were shot as such (The Hobbit and another I'm forgetting), as well as the
ability to watch high framerate content on YouTube, and it is absolutely the
high framerate that is jarring in cinematic content.

~~~
tuscen
My experience is different: I've seen all three Hobbit movies in HFR with
48fps and it was gorgeous whereas interpolation is not even close to what I've
seen in the theaters. Cinema is not in FPS count but in camera movements and
frame composition. Cheap TV shows and movies look cheap regardless of FPS
count.

~~~
ralusek
I almost walked out of the theater, and my whole group was on the same page.
It genuinely felt like we were watching a play.

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Jonnax
How much slower are encodes vs H.264 or HEVC?

The way some of the comments here are talking about it. It's like it requires
a 2 hour encode to encode 1 hour.

For Netflix this is an encode once then just CDN the files. I can't imagine
that this would be a significant cost.

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oliwarner
30fps on a 9900KS at 1080p. Three to four times slower than x264. As you say,
for ahead of time, write once, read many media like Netflix, that's an
acceptable trade. It's not going to work for live media yet.

But 10bit 4k streams need nearly 50gb RAM and exponentially more time than
1080p. I've never had much luck.

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kabes
You can't draw conclusions from this for live streaming. That's typically just
a subset of the encoder being used in 1 pass. Same for h264 etc.

The live streaming part of av1 is still full on the works. RTP packet formats
for SVC isn't even finished yet, let alone implemented in a codec.

~~~
oliwarner
Not drawing conclusions. That's why I said "yet".

Spec, hardware encoders and maybe even software encoder improvements will
likely make it practical.

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sleavey
Given that this is ARM, will this become available to the Raspberry Pi some
time? I've set up a Raspberry Pi 4 as a media center but Netflix doesn't work
because of codec issues.

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IntelMiner
Netflix only works on devices that support its DRM implementations. I don't
think Widevine works on ARM/ARM64

On Android there's some specific API they call that only works on "certified"
devices from Google. Random hobbyist builds wont work

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Narushia
Widevine is supported on Android, and is utilized by the MediaDrm APIs.[1][2]

Netflix uses Google’s SafetyNet API to make sure the device is “certified”.
When this API check returns false, some features (like downloading media for
offline viewing) will be disabled for the device. In some cases, the app won’t
even show up in Google Play. Devices with a custom ROM are likely to fail the
test, but luckily the check can be circumvented with the hide feature of
Magisk[3]. Netflix works fine on my LineageOS-powered device when using
Magisk.

But even if your device passes the SafetyNet checks, you might not be able to
play HD videos. This depends on the Widevine security level, which can be L1,
L2 or L3; only devices with L1 are allowed to play HD videos. You can check
your device’s Widevine security level with DRM Info[4], for example. Netflix
also lists specific device models and chipsets for which they support HD
streaming.[5]

[1]
[https://source.android.com/devices/drm](https://source.android.com/devices/drm)

[2]
[https://developer.android.com/reference/android/media/MediaD...](https://developer.android.com/reference/android/media/MediaDrm)

[3] [https://github.com/topjohnwu/Magisk](https://github.com/topjohnwu/Magisk)

[4]
[https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.androidfun...](https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.androidfung.drminfo)

[5]
[https://help.netflix.com/en/node/23939](https://help.netflix.com/en/node/23939)

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dojitza
Is there a convenient way to check which instruction set your phone supports?
Something akin to hwinfo for Windows.

[https://www.guru3d.com/index.php?ct=files&action=file&id=263](https://www.guru3d.com/index.php?ct=files&action=file&id=263)

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solarkraft
How is the hardware decoding story nowadays? Have devices with hardware
decoders already started shipping?

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babypuncher
Newer Snapdragon SoCs, and that's about it right now.

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TheGoddessInari
Only mediatek has a smartphone SOC with AV1 available.

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apocalyptic0n3
No word on what their encoding toolset is. That's been the limiting factor
with widespread adoption thus far; it just takes too much CPU and too much
time to encode as AV1 vs 264, 265, or VP9

~~~
jjcm
For Netflix this likely doesn't matter. While Youtube deals with 300+ hours of
content uploaded every minute that it has to encode, Netflix only has to
encode ~100 titles per month. Even if it takes a month to encode 1 of these,
it's still easily doable for Netflix.

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apocalyptic0n3
Yes and no. It's a cost-benefit deal. Just because they _can_ (and they surely
can), doesn't mean it is cost beneficial to do so now. It takes CPU time (and
therefore money) for each encode they do. If one takes much more resources to
do, it may not be beneficial to do so yet. I originally posted my comment
wondering if there had been some encoder breakthrough that I had missed that
had made AV1 a viable option finally. Looks like there was, but it's still not
nearly as good as it needs to be fore widespread adoption (looks like it's
still 30x slower than a comparable HEVC or VP9 encode). So I guess it comes
down to: are they saving enough on downstream bandwidth to balance out the CPU
time for the encode? Releasing it would suggest yes, or they see some benefit
to pushing the standard into the mainstream now rather than in six months
regardless of the cost to them.

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frandroid
That kind of CPU load is a drop in the bucket for Netflix.

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cheeze
Yup. Run it during off peak with extra hardware. EZ.

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why_only_15
Yeah this seems like a good job for AWS spot or the like. If it costs
$.01/minute of video, probably worth it even if only a few hundred people
watch the title.

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shmerl
I assume they are using AV1+Opus?

When are hardware decoders and encoders for AV1 coming for common GPUs (Intel,
AMD, Nvidia, Qualcomm, etc.?).

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tootie
Does this include Fire TV devices?

