
What Happens to the Body on No Sleep - prostoalex
https://www.outsideonline.com/2292806/your-body-no-sleep
======
motivic
In case you feel sleep is a waste of time, it could actually be surprisingly
productive to sleep. Once thing I noticed in grad school is that your sub-
conscious is passively working on the problems you encountered even if you are
not actively thinking about them. And often I would "dream" up a clever
solution to a homework problem during my sleep.

J.P. Serre, one of the most brilliant mathematician still living today,
purportedly "does all his best work in his sleep":
[https://tinyurl.com/y25q45ut](https://tinyurl.com/y25q45ut)

From what I learned in the wonderful Coursera course: "Learning How to Learn",
these are manifestations of the unfocused or diffused mode of the mind, and
play a critical role in learning and problem solving.

[https://medium.com/learn-love-code/learnings-from-
learning-h...](https://medium.com/learn-love-code/learnings-from-learning-how-
to-learn-19d149920dc4)

~~~
Zarath
While I understand why you'd write something like this, I think that this sort
of thinking is the reason people get poor sleep nowadays anyway. This
obsession with "efficiency" and "productivity". _Even if_ it is more
productive to get sleep, I believe that thinking about it in terms of hygiene
or in terms of quality of life is much healthier.

Maybe you disagree but not every minute of life should be devoted to doing the
most productive thing you can. Sleeping for sleep's sake or because it makes
you feel good should be enough reason. I'd rather turn my attention away from
all these life-hack, min-maxing ways of thinking and just listen to my body
telling me what it wants.

~~~
neuronic
It's a truly mind-boggling feeling when you escape the busy city life and
somehow manage to be truly in sync with yourself.

I was hiking in Scotland and Iceland over the last two years and either times
there was a breaking point when we were in the middle of nowhere. In Iceland
some weather forced us to camp near a volcano off-site from the camping zones.
In the morning, I got out of our tent and looked across a vast space of grass,
rocks and ashes. A creek flowing nearby made the only perceivable noise aside
from wind.

You take a look left and right. Breathe. A breeze goes over your face and you
hear the deafening silence emanating from nature itself.

It was then when the usual life all felt like a massive distraction from life
itself. It was a nice, calming and deep feeling that it's completely enough to
just _be_... hard to convey.

~~~
mettamage
I know how that feels, with camping as well. But I cannot shake the thought
that most of our life is simply about survival.

And society is a better alternative than hunting/farming on your own.

~~~
leadingthenet
Sure, but is it a better alternative than hunting/farming in groups? I'm not
convinced.

~~~
Filligree
Farming is _not_ a good life. Hunter/gatherers famously had it much better.

Doesn't matter. The sustainable population of farmers is orders is magnitudes
higher, to the point that they can push out any hunter-gatherers almost
without noticing. I hope that modern life is at least closing on that quality
of life, but I don't think it is yet, for most people.

~~~
thrownblown
the !kung bushmen spend about 15-20 hours a week "working", some as little as
12

~~~
RcouF1uZ4gsC
What about the !Kung bush women?

Probably most of the labor of hunter gatherer societies was done by women. The
men hunted some, but a bigger responsibility was raiding their neighboring
tribes (often for women) and protecting themselves from being raided by their
neighbors.

If you look at hunter gatherer societies, many times women are treated as
property and there is horrific violence against women.

[https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nytimes.com/2018/11/15/worl...](https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nytimes.com/2018/11/15/world/asia/papua-
new-guinea-apec-women-abuse.amp.html)

Also a lot of these societies are polygynous with men having multiple wives.
So yeah, men work less - but that is because the women do the work for them
under threat of violence.

~~~
thrownblown
The highest cause of death among young men in the HG tribes of Papua New
Guinea is other young men. It's an incredibly violent culture there. The !Kung
tell a much different story:

Patricia Draper - (1978) Learning Aggression and Anti-Social Behavior among
the !Kung:

In writing an essay on aggression in !Kung life, one encounters some of the
problems outlined above. Aggression, conflict, and vio­lence—none of these are
culturally elaborated preoccupations. Nor could one argue that a central
cultural theme is concerned with an opposite set of values—the enforcement of
peace and the uppres­sion of aggression. From this point of view, values about
interper­sonal aggression do not qualify as an especially auspicious position
from which to view the cultural terrain. Nevertheless, the !Kung are a people
who devalue aggression; they have explicit values against assaulting, losing
control, and seeking to intimidate another person by sheer force of
personality. Furthermore, on a daily basis and over months of fieldwork one
finds that overt physical acts by one person against another are extremely
rare. In two years I personally observed three instances in which people lost
control and exchanged blows: two twelve-year-old girls who wrestled and fought
with fists; two women who scratched and kicked each other over a man (the
husband of one of the women); and two men who violently shoved each other back
and forth, shouted and sep­arated to gather weapons, only to be dissuaded by
other people from their respective camps. In a fourth case I saw two women who
had fought the night before. Lorna Marshall, an anthropolo­gist with much
experience among the !Kung, makes a similar report:

During seventeen and a half months of fieldwork with the Nyae Nyae !Kung . . .
, I personally saw only four flare-ups of dis­cord and heard about three
others which occurred in neighboring bands during that period. All were
resolved before they became serious quarrels. [Marshall, 1976, pp. 311-12]

------
bennylope
My first real experience with sleep deprivation was when I was 12 1/2\. My
friends and I stayed up all night and sometime the next afternoon decided to
go for a short hike. I made it down the street and then realized I was tired
and said I was going back to the house. Next I knew I was sitting at the
kitchen table with a Dr. Pepper in front of me, surrounded by my friend's
parents and the rest of my buddies. Apparently I had been walking around the
house talking to myself, and I still have vague recollections of being pursued
by my 7th grade journalism teacher demanding that I name the world's oceans.

I try not to stay awake that long anymore.

------
MisterOctober
A lot of the stuff mentioned in this article -- microsleeps, immune weakness,
irrational thoughts and behavior -- sure rings a bell from my university days
when I would, either for work or school "reasons," routinely pull all-
nighters. Ended up with some very bad results.

Also: Schools in general in my area, including elementary, are starting waaaay
earlier than they used to, and the kids aren't getting enough sleep, which
leads to lethargy and bad behavior, etc etc. I oppose starting kids on the
habit of academically-induced sleep deprivation early in life, but every time
I complain about it to school officials, they have some clever comeback
centered either on "studies" or the convenience of the parents who pay the
taxes

Gets me furious

~~~
devilmoon
Oh boy, the university I'm attending right now has lectures starting at 8am,
which is earlier than usual for my country, and ca. 36 hours of lectures per
week. This means that you usually go 8am/6pm in uni multiple days a week, then
you obviously have your assignments and catching up on the lectures to do, and
all the random stuff that comes with living alone (laundry, grocery, cooking,
cleaning, etc.) - this means that you quite literally get to the point where
you either study or start skipping sleep. I complained to my faculty and the
administration because it is quite full of studies that show that sleep
deprivation leads to depression, lower performance, etc. And got various
responses out of them: \- a couple of professors told me that they don't care
and if you want to succeed in university you have to sleep less than normal \-
some admin staff told me that the university doesn't have enough space for
everyone, hence they have to start earlier in the morning to gain an
additional lecture slot during the day (nevermind the fact that this slot is
from 12 to 2pm and is always used for lunch break).

This shit really makes me furious, if not even universities which should be
run by people that rely on hard data to make their decisions can come to the
conclusion that starting the day early either means fucking up the long term
health of their students or having people skip lectures altogether, I don't
know if anyone ever will.

Sorry for any mistakes in my post, for context it's 6:30am and I'm getting
ready for a lecture (riding on 5 hours of sleep for a few days in a row now)

~~~
Hitton
36 hours a week from 8am to 6pm means that you have approximately 2 hours
between lectures each day to do your assignments. Sure, it isn't suited to
having part time job or much free time, but from my experience it sounds like
pretty normal uni routine and no one I know complained. And I warn you, when
you are older it isn't going to be any better, just instead of assignments you
have to take care of kids.

~~~
germinalphrase
True fact. Having a baby has helped enforce boundaries on my work schedule
(which had been routinely 50-60 a week); however, I am as busy as ever.

------
yati
Sleep is very very important, and I've learned this the hard way. Sleeping
well has been a challenge, and I am glad I'm not alone.

Articles like this one and books like Why We Sleep however make me very
anxious, since all they seem to do is point out how bad it is if one doesn't
get enough sleep. I know that. How can I fix it? I had CBT based sleep therapy
last year, and things have since improved, but not much. Then I have the
occasional random doctors who tell me how sleep is actually not that important
and how they used to sleep only 3h/day when they were my age. Even the cult
book Why We Sleep has chapter after chapter of telling me how screwed I am
because I don't sleep 8-9 h/day, with little actionable items that can help
me. I get that it is super important to raise awareness about sleep, but every
time I open such articles, I am invariably made anxious about my sleep, and
people who know what I'm talking about know how _hard_ it is to sleep with
anxiety about your sleep.

Sorry for my rant :(

~~~
bitbuilder
You sound exactly like how I felt before seeing a doctor about my insomnia.

If you haven't already, I'd suggest just seeing a doctor, and asking for
something that will help you sleep. I was given 50mg Trazodone, and I feel
like it's saved my life. It's not a controlled substance, so doctors and nurse
practitioners hand it out like candy.

Now I get 8 hours of sleep a night, and most of the research I've dug up
indicates it doesn't mess with your sleep architecture. There were some nasty
side effects my first few weeks, but they seem to have faded over time.

I spent months and months obsessively reading everything I could about how to
improve my sleep. Tried it all. Tried every OTC supplement even rumored to
improve sleep. Nothing helped. And the more time I spent stressing about it,
the worse it got. By the time I saw a doctor I'd probably gone two weeks
straight averaging 2-3 hours of sleep a night. I felt like a shell of a human
being.

Just asking for a pill might seem like an unhealthy cop out to some, but the
improvement in my quality of life since doing so has been immeasurable since
doing do.

~~~
theNJR
Trazodone seems like a might big hammer for this problem. Do you plan to take
it forever? I’d assume that removing it will cause withdrawal and a reversion
to your previous insomnia. Or did your doctor suggest a plan of taking it for
X months and then taper off? While the idea of a pill to fix this problem
sounds really appealing to me, taking an SARI is not without risk.

~~~
theNJR
Some quick googling offers an interesting count point to my fear:

[https://academic.oup.com/brain/article/140/6/1768/3737867](https://academic.oup.com/brain/article/140/6/1768/3737867)

~~~
theNJR
An N of 6 study showing it doesnt just knock you out:
[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2211560](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2211560)

------
eyegor
I'm sure that it must be true based on how other people act on little sleep,
but for me the effects this article claims are blown way out of proportion (or
just seem wrong).

 _> longer than 48 hours and you’re looking at behavior that mimics
psychosis—incoherent rambling, disconnection from reality, prone to outbursts_

Does anyone else here have experience staying awake this long? In college I
frequently stayed awake for 48 hours without much effect besides my reaction
times falling off a cliff and a mild high toward the end. Hallucinations never
kicked in until 60+ (which is a more substantial increase than it seems). My
main gripe is all the effects listed in the article seem to take it as fact
that less sleep = more grumpy, while in my experience the complete opposite is
true (less sleep = more goofy/euphoria).

~~~
pravus
This is very much a personal thing and the article is only showing one end of
the spectrum. While I have issues staying up past 48 hours and my longest ever
stint was 56 or so, I can go for 36 hours easily without any real dramatic
adverse effects. I certainly don't feel drunk and am quite capable of
performing complicated work even after 24 hours of being awake.

As long as the sun is up my body generally wants to be awake and when going
for long periods of uptime I only have an issue with tiredness between 2am and
4am. After 4am I can convince myself that the sun will be up soon and once I
can actually see the sky brighten I become energized rapidly.

The one time I did go past 48 hours I never hallucinated but simply felt like
a zombie. My mind basically shut off and I felt very detached and remote to my
own consciousness. The odd thing is that when I finally got into bed it still
took me something like 2 hours to finally fall asleep because I felt too tired
to actually fall asleep.

Anyway, that's my experience. When I read through the article I kept thinking
it was missing the mark for me completely.

~~~
eyegor
_> when I finally got into bed it still took me something like 2 hours to
finally fall asleep because I felt too tired to actually fall asleep_

Oh I can absolutely relate to that. On low sleep I found it incredibly natural
to fall asleep sitting on a bench with no back rest (without falling over),
but purposefully trying to sleep in a bed was always difficult. Up until about
35-40 hours awake I can easily fall asleep in a bed, but it becomes
challenging past that point. I'm guessing my brain is pulling some c4 trickery
there since that's roughly when my coordination starts to deteriorate.

~~~
vraivroo
I developed a trick of sitting on the edge of my bed when I'm in this state.
Sooner or later I nod off, and then I can just _literally_ fall back into bed.

------
dagaci
There is a period during sleep where the body engages in rapidly flushing the
brain of cerebrospinal fluids. This action is intensely physical and
disturbing, however with the exception of the most serene true-insomniacs only
a tiny fraction of people will directly experience it.

They say this prevents the build up of harmful toxins in the brain, and that
the failure to do this over time can be a contributor to the onset of
conditions like Alzheimers.

While many may claim to have overcome the need for sleep, and some actually
feel productive. And claim to be just as effective. No one should be in doubt
that long term effects of sleep deprivation is devastating. Not only to the
Brain, and the body as many studies have shown.

~~~
e40
_This action is intensely physical and disturbing_

Can you expand on that?

~~~
dagaci
If you are very relaxed, but persistently unable sleep. But are not alarmed
about not being able to sleep anymore, and in a state of almost like not
thinking. You may suddenly experience a throbbing sensation in the head/neck,
a pulsing in this state.

Normally this enough to trigger alarm in the conscious and fully wake you up.
But after this happens many times you can become expectant of it and just let
it happen a little longer because you are not immediately alarmed.

~~~
jlokier
I have experienced something that sounds like this, but during the first few
minutes of falling asleep after a long time without.

Sometimes I woried that I was going to "pop a vessel", but after a couple of
times, didn't worry so much.

Is it the same thing as you mean? I never experienced it "spontaneously", only
while settling down to sleep before drifting off.

------
theatraine
There seems to be quite a lot of information about why <7 hours sleep is bad
for you, but I'm more interested in why sleep >=8 hours is associated with
_increased_ mortality.

See for example
[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/29790200](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/29790200)
(an interesting study in itself).

I read "Why We Sleep" but unfortunately it didn't answer this question. The
association could be correlational but it's been replicated too many times for
me to believe that there's not something more fundamental. Perhaps there's a
hormetic effect that's blunted by too much sleep similar to how HGH is bad for
longevity?

~~~
glaive123
This is a great question.

As others said, the data is contaminated. Likely people who are sick sleep a
lot more.

That said, I'm one of those people (healthy, I think) who sleeps 9-14 hours
every day. My goal every night is to sleep as long as I possibly can. Nights
when I only hit 9 hours is usually because I had to get up to go the bathroom.

I have Sleep Apnea but treat it with a CPAP and went from 20 awakenings per
HOUR to just 0 to 2 per NIGHT. But the amount I need to sleep hasn't changed
for some reason. I definitely feel dramatically more rested after sleep than I
used to though.

I started using AutoSleep app with Apple Watch Series 4 and it's been
incredibly interesting. It uses your heart rate to automatically track sleep
without you touching the app. So far, I vary from 15 minutes to 1 hour of
stage 4 deep sleep per night. The average person needs 1.5-2 hours per night
so I am not hitting that. My recent 6 day average is 30 minutes. There is
barely a relationship between length of sleep and amount of deep sleep. Just
this week I had one night with 6 hours and one night with 11 hours, both
totaled 15 minutes of deep sleep.

I'd love to compare notes with someone else who uses the AutoSleep app.

~~~
epmaybe
How do you know you are healthy?

Edit: This isn't meant to be accusatory, I'm just curious

~~~
ip26
To be frank most people with sleep apnea aren't.

~~~
epmaybe
Yeah obesity is definitely associated with obstructive sleep apnea, no doubt.
But what if they just have a thick neck and are otherwise healthy? I'm willing
to give the benefit of the doubt

~~~
glaive123
You are correct, I am actually young and physically fit as well as eat a
healthy diet.

------
kvark
I often find myself mote productive after a mildly bad night. The brain stops
anxiously looking for nuts to crack, and instead can easily focus on a single
problem for a long time. Isn't best for all scenarios, but definitely superior
in some, e.g. implementing a large chunk of logic that was designed earlier.

~~~
minism
This has been my experience as well, but I'm starting to worry that its an
unhealthy habit.

------
surfsvammel
If sleep is so important. Why didn’t we evolve to have our newborns and
toddlers _not_ destroy our sleep? Are parents sacrificed for the well being of
the kiddos?

 _sleep deprived and frustrated father_

~~~
koonsolo
Hey I feel you.

A lot of people might not like my answer, but here it goes. I have a 2,5 month
old daughter, and my wife breastfeeds her. During the night, I don't wake up
because she immediately gives her milk when she wakes up. There are a few
things evolution gave us for support (correct me if these 'facts' are wrong):
\- When women breastfeed, they get some hormone that can put them into REM
sleep way faster. \- Men are not as sensitive for sounds during their sleep as
women.

So evolution wise, this was probably mainly a mothers sacrifice. This lets the
other, more physically strong parent (when that was still important) function
at 100%.

In these modern times, work is divided and so both parents divide all family
and money work, and so also share the sacrifice of sleep deprivation.

~~~
dm3
Not sure why people wouldn't like this answer. We've had great success with
this approach and co-sleeping even after the breastfeeding period.

Would be interested to hear negative experiences.

~~~
koonsolo
I was afraid of the "women should take care of the family" argument.

------
bbot23
This might be a longshot given the age of the post, but does anyone have
anything to say about OVERsleeping? This is anecdodal but over the years I've
internalized how important sleep is and have been able to regularly get 8+
hours of sleep. What I've noticed is that I get more "emotionally" lethargic -
level-headed when something should be stressful, which is a good thing, but
also very calm and collected when something should produce euphoria.

If anyone has any relatable experiences or links to articles about
oversleeping I'd love to read them.

~~~
antocv
Oversleep leads to lazyness and sadness, or introversion and contemplatency.
Or, it was just those teenage years, but when I was 16 and 18, I used to sleep
14h per day.

This contemplating mood lasted throughout the day, only to disappear and be
replaced by ambition and will, many creative ideas late in the evening, just
before it was time to sleep again.

8-10 hours is perfect, just enough to retain the creativity and motivation for
the next morning which was gathered during the evening. Sleep longer than 12h,
and feel so comfortable to just contemplate things without willing to do
anything else but think and feel.

When I sleep less than 8h, all effects as described in article happen.

------
franciscop
This is an amazing gem:

> on the Monday after spring daylight saving time, when we lose an hour of
> sleep, there’s a 25 percent increase in heart attacks

> Conversely, in the fall, when we gain an extra hour, there is a 21 percent
> reduction in heart attacks.

So daylight saving kills an extra 4% people by heart attacks. _Light_ Yagami
approves.

I wonder whether it's because of the sleep itself, or because when people
don't sleep enough they tend to take stimulants that increase heart attack
risks.

~~~
maxerickson
The article linked there ([https://www.acc.org/about-acc/press-
releases/2014/03/29/09/1...](https://www.acc.org/about-acc/press-
releases/2014/03/29/09/16/sandhu-daylight-saving%5C) ) is a bit more nuanced.
The heart attacks are shifted from the rest of the week to Monday, looking at
the week it is about the same as other weeks.

(also, those heart attacks are not necessarily lethal)

~~~
jlokier
> (also, those heart attacks are not necessarily lethal)

That sentence is not as comforting as I think you meant it to be.

~~~
maxerickson
I didn't mean it to be comforting, the other poster talked about Daylight
Saving Time killing people, which is not a great way to talk about what is
going on, it creates moderate pressure for cardiac events to happen earlier in
the week it occurs.

I mean, I guess I do find it mildly reassuring, as I know a few people
directly that have survived heart attacks, had cardiac bypass and then felt
much better than they had for quite some time prior to the heart attack.

------
chewz
It is your duty as human being to get enough sleep because if you are well
rested you treat yourself better, you treat people around you better and you
generally spread positive energy around. - this is how my spiritual teacher
explained why getting enough sleep is first step to growth.

------
rl3
Sleep is required for proper function of the glymphatic system.[0]
Insufficient sleep results in inadequate clearance of metabolic waste products
from your brain via this pathway. Accumulation of said byproducts results
neurological damage.

In other words, get good sleep or you're literally inflicting brain damage
upon yourself. Impaired glymphatic function is linked to all manner of
horrible neurodegenerative conditions.[1][2]

[0]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glymphatic_system#Waste_cleara...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glymphatic_system#Waste_clearance_during_sleep)

[1]
[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6261373/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6261373/)

[2]
[https://www.karger.com/Article/FullText/490349](https://www.karger.com/Article/FullText/490349)

------
setnone
My experience with no sleep happened as a part of 21 day Vipasana meditation
retreat. So on the 15th day after constant practice we had to face what they
called Determination — 3 days with no sleep, not leaving the room, doing 1hr
walking meditation / 1 hr sitting meditation / 1 hr rest, all over again. As
far as i remember the point was to keep all the gained mindfulness and
awareness in the counciouness and do not let subcounciouness which acitivates
as we fall asleep to kind of ruin the whole practice. It was an intense
process guided by the teacher, with new exercises each day, basically some
variations of breath counting.

It was difficult mentally but not so much phisically and after just a night of
sleep i felt amazingly fresh.

I like to think that those 3 days of a guided practice with no sleep was the
key ingridient to let the meditation become the part of my existense.

~~~
jason_slack
I love Vipassana retreats. I've done a few long ones too.

------
jcoffland
> Push yourself longer than a few days without sleep, and the effects can be
> lethal.

The above statement in the article links to a story on Reuters about one case
of an intern who stayed up for 72 hours and died for unknown reasons. Hardly
proof.

This is so overblow. Many people have stayed awake for more than 72 hours and
not died. In fact, there is no evidence that sleep deprivation causes death in
humans. If you don't agree with that statement please falsify it with proof.

I recently stayed awake for 72 hours as an experiment. It was hard. I had all
of the temporary effects described in the article except for hallucination but
it was all temporary. After 14 hours of sleep I was perfectly fine. That's one
data point.

Don't drive, operate machinery or perform surgery when sleep deprived but it's
not some terrifying dangerous thing to go with out sleep for a few days.

~~~
distant_hat
Actually sleep deprivation results in death and is one of the reasons it is
used as a torture method. Some neurological conditions which degrade sleep
significantly result in death. Among the failures observed are things like
loss of thermoregulation. Guinness book of records stopped recognizing sleep
deprivation records because of the dangers of going too long without sleep.
Sleep deprivation has been more extensively studied in animals like mice and
rats etc and invariably results in death.

~~~
jcoffland
Sure there's lots of fear around sleep deprivation but where's the evidence
that it causes death? By evidence I mean studies that don't involve pumping
mice full of stimulants for days.

------
o10449366
I was born with chronic insomnia and I'm now in my early 30s. I never feel
sleepy and just this past Monday I went to work having not slept the night
before. I'm healthy now and I guess my body is so used to the effects of sleep
deprivation that I feel no side effects (such as headaches), but I wouldn't be
surprised if I die very young.

If you have any questions feel free to ask them, just please don't suggest I
try melatonin or marijuana.

~~~
cj
You alluded to taking benzos + z-drugs for 10+ years (you weren't very
specific, so I could be off base) on 6-9 month cycles with 3 month tolerance
break, and that you've been clean off benzo/x-drugs for a year now.

I've seen cases of benzo/z-drug withdrawal (after a short 1-2 years of daily
use) requiring 3 months to even notice relief from the side effects of the
withdrawal (most notably, horrible insomnia). And then another 6-12 months of
abstinence to reach a place where the withdrawal effects are no longer top of
mind, or subtly present but not overwhelming.

If you were on benzo/z-drug for very many consecutive years (even with short
tolerance breaks), especially if those years were before age 25, it's very
possible that your brain has never had a chance to function in the way a
"normal" (non-altered) brain functions that hasn't been exposed to long term
benzo/z-drug therapy.

The scary part about benzo/z-drugs is that they can, over time, change the
structure and chemistry of your brain through upregulation and downregulation
of receptors in response to the presence of drugs. With benzos in particular,
the amount of time it takes to reverse the drug-induced changes seems to be
incredibly long (not weeks, barely months, maybe years -- obviously depending
on the length of time of initial exposure).

This is all to say that, if indeed you were on ultra long-term benzo/z-drugs
for an extended amount of time (2-5+ years), 1 year of abstinence may not be
enough to fully recover back to a normal state.

\---

And I assume you do all the basic sleep hygiene stuff for insomnia: no
caffeine (at all, not even in the morning), no stimulants even if prescribed,
intense exercise in the morning but not at night, not eating within 3 hours of
sleep, no electronics within 2 hours of sleep.

\---

If you think the first part of my comment is BS, and if you've already done
everything in the 2nd part of the comment, I'd highly recommend trying a
dramatic diet change: something like going strict vegan and cutting out all
processed sugars (and processed foods in general),

-

And if that too fails, think deeply about what triggers anxiety / emotional
discord in your life, and try to eliminate the source of that completely. This
is the hardest advice to follow through with, since for many people it means
quitting jobs, ending marriages, disowning family, moving to another
country... you get the point.

~~~
anon9001
Benzos are extremely helpful for providing relief from anxiety and stopping
panic attacks, and everyone should have some and know how to use them
responsibly. The level of utility of being able to turn off anxiety and fear
is incredible. I take xanax before I go to the dentist, because it's just not
happening any other way, and it absolutely squashes the flight response and
lets me act like a normal human. It shouldn't be understated what a miracle
this is, and that it can be done safely with almost no risk.

But they're also the most addictive substances we've got. After a week or so,
you now have an addiction that needs tapering to not be dangerous. If you lose
access to the drugs, you might die from withdrawal.

The withdrawal can make you feel literally insane. I don't know how to explain
it other than it's extremely unpleasant and everything feels moody and
irrational, and sometimes you don't even realize the extent to which you're
being irrational until you take more drugs and feel "normal" again.

The potential for addiction is also high because these drugs feel the best out
of all drugs. You're going to want to use it again. Imagine if alcohol never
made you sick or dizzy, and you could have as much of it as you wanted, and
you'd just keep feeling more relaxed until you pass out. Then you wake up
feeling relaxed and don't have a hangover. That's what benzos feel like.

Also many doctors don't realize just how possible it is to have a seizure
during withdrawal, and some doctors will refuse patients asking for benzos
because they see them as drug-seekers.

Any time I see one of these threads about benzos, I try to share my
experience, because they're just so misunderstood by the general public. And
it's probably not great that there's so much talk about xanax in hiphop right
now.

~~~
stallmanite
Everything you said is spot on except for benzos feeling the “best of all
drugs”. You mustn’t have been around the block if you can say that with a
straight face. There’s far more euphoric drugs out there.

~~~
anon9001
I think it depends who you are and what you like. There's more euphoric
stimulant stuff out there, and mind blowing psychedelics, but nothing else
feels as overall _good_ as xanax. I'd take benzos over opiates any day.

But I haven't been able to find quaaludes anywhere, so maybe I am missing
something ;)

------
bcrosby95
I went a period of several weeks with little sleep (2-3 hours per day). At
first I was really tired. Then that started to go away and my head was numb.
After that the numbness went away and I had a persistent headache.

The reason why I got so little sleep initially stopped after about 10 days
(sleep regression in twin babies). The rest of the time was because it became
very difficult to sleep. Any noise would wake me up - wide awake. It would
take me hours to fall asleep. I continued to only be able to get 2-3 hours per
day. Even with over the counter sleep aids.

Eventually I got some Ambien, which let me actually fall asleep for more time.
That helped me get to the point where I could actually feel tired again when I
needed to sleep.

It was an interesting experience.

~~~
cgriswald
Zolpidem was a lifesaver for me. Although I always have really strange dreams
and never feel like I get “real” sleep while taking it, it helped me get back
on track when my sleeping schedule would go off the rails.

------
brainless
There are some comments here pointing out that some effects in the article
(post 30 hours of sleep deprivation for example) seem out of proportion.

If you are comparing to times when you did not sleep and "felt" you performed
well, please keep in mind that your "feelings" are also affected by the same
lack of sleep.

You might be thinking you are driving great, but compared to how your drive
when fully rested, you are probably not. But you brain does not process or
acknowledge this fully since it is deprived of sleep.

Your mileage with lack of sleep will surely vary, but to think you are not
affected (without formal tests) will be the exact result of lack or sleep -
thinking/reasoning is impaired.

------
rootusrootus
Every time I travel 30 hours to India (three flights from where I live, with
layovers) I get reminded in a big way that sleep is important. I can't sleep
on planes, for whatever reason, and man does it ever screw with my body. Part
of that is simple jet lag, but for a few days after traveling things are
clearly malfunctioning, hormones out of whack, body temperature regulation
bass-ackwards, brain fog, memory loss, etc.

------
interfixus
Yet another anecdotal data point: I pulled my first all-nighter at age nine.
That was July 1969, Armstrong on the Moon, which in Europe was a nighttime
event. Stayed up for the rerun next morning and day. Tired, of course, and
everything slightly unreal, mostly from all the agitation and the ghostly tv
images, I think. Since then, have not infrequently skipped nights - because of
night shifts of physical labor, because of coding and inability to call it a
day, because of travelling, because of childbirth, because of sudden insomnia,
because of new, exciting girlfriend or - rarely - because of partying.
Generally, once I get a normal night of sleep, I'm fine, no residual effects
that I'm aware of. 'A normal night of sleep' means 7 - 8 hours in the dark
part of the year, 5 - 6 during summer. Just entered my sixties, and healthwise
doing just fine. Working in a job with a higly varying time schedule and
actually enjoying it, whereas regular hours Monday through Friday eventually
always push me into torpor and quasi-depression. I rarely take naps, but will
go to bed and fall asleep no problem at five or six in the afternoon if that's
what my schedule dictates.

------
ngngngng
Pretty neat to see these symptoms understood and researched. I experienced all
of them during high school when I worked at a movie theater that kept me there
past 2AM and got up each morning for Seminary at 6AM. No caffeine was allowed
in my parents household either. The freeway microsleep is the scariest. You
suddenly become very alert and realize you don't remember the last few minutes
at all.

------
jason_slack
I don't sleep, I guess this is called "short sleeping". I have been this way
my entire life. Frustrated my family growing up and still today, age 42, is
hard for my family sometimes.

I sleep 3-4 hours most days, but lately just 2 hours each day. It's like
clockwork. I've actually been up for 30 hours already.

What makes me different? Anyone have research or thoughts on this?

~~~
kzzzznot
How are your general energy levels, memory, mood? I can’t provide any research
or thoughts on your case I’m afraid but I expect others who may be able to
would need this information.

~~~
jason_slack
My sleep has been reducing, strangely. I used to get 4.5 hours or so, then 4,
then 3.5, etc. Recently I'm on 2.

I feel fantastic every day. I get up without an alarm. I don't need caffeine,
I work hard, I take care of the kids, cook, etc. Should mention that I eat a
lot of blueberries, avocados, fish, tea, turmeric, etc.

Memory is fine, I don't forget or have trouble recalling details. Usually.
Sometimes I forget an API call, but don't we all?

My mood is always positive/euphoric. Some days I'm a bit grumpy but its
usually because I'm bogged down in tasks and trying to do a lot at one time
and I really just want to put these chores aside and do something more
enjoyable.

------
6nf
Do we still allow medical staff and ER doctors to work 20 hour days?

~~~
amitport
I live in Israel. Doctors work 26 hours shifts 6-8 times a month.

In practice, in many departments it's worse. When needed it will be 28-30 but
without pay for the extra hours because it's illegal (doctors are expected not
to leave when it people are at risk...but it is illegal to stay so they just
sign off and continue working)

During recovery time after long shifts, doctors may be waken by phone call
(when things are urgent, or when somebody in the department is just annoying)

There is some variation, between hospitals and departments. Some departments
will have quiet hours that allow sleep. Others, like Gynecology don't (births
generally can't wait till morning)

~~~
thecopy
Why is the system knowingly risking human life?

~~~
amitport
The short answer would be money and politics. But to be fair keep in mind that
compared to the US Israel's public healthcare is very subsidized and may be
better for the average person. (Israel has less variance in the level of care,
US may put people at risk by limiting access to hospitals)

------
leroy_masochist
> Studies have shown that just one week of sleep deprivation—less than five
> hours per night—dropped young male’s testosterone levels by a whopping 10 to
> 15 percent. For comparison, a healthy individual’s testosterone will
> naturally decline by 1 to 2 percent per year. In other words, as far as your
> hormonal system is concerned, a week of bad sleep will age you a decade.

But isn't this temporary, not permanent? I was repeatedly sleep-deprived as a
military officer in my 20's -- both chronically and acutely, and often beyond
the parameters described in the article -- and my T levels are normal now that
I'm in my late 30s.

------
mr_tristan
Given how hard it is to track accurate nutritional data, I wonder if sleep
research just as evasive to study since it is very difficult/expensive to
define a “control” group. I’d have to imagine you’d have to have subjects
sleep alone in a controlled environment for a while before you could observe
real patterns. This, we’re left with extreme cases to observe, not really
normal ones.

------
sysbin
I achieved what I can only describe as pure euphoria while going without sleep
for extended months in my 20s. I've actually been thinking about doing it
again recently. It really should only be done if you don't need to drive and
have no worry about failing deadlines at work.

~~~
betterbeehome
Cocaine would be a better choice than chronic sleep deprivation to achieve
that. Just saying.

~~~
thecopy
> pure euphoria

Probably MDMA would be a better choice.

------
Razengan
Idea for a startup: Sleep pods (or, perhaps more marketable, smart beds.)

Create the perfect comfortable environment in an enclosure, constantly
maintaining the temperature/oxygen/etc. that's optimized for the individual.

Artificially induce sleep to knock the user out right away or within their
preferred duration.

Monitor their vitals throughout sleep.

Perhaps inject nutrients.

Fluff: Massage, choice of music/sound effects for falling asleep and on waking
up, scents/aromas, an overhead screen to show pleasing scenes, maybe to create
the illusion of sleeping under the stars etc.

Make it so effective that eventually the user only need to sleep once or twice
every week (but of course they can always choose to sleep more often.)

~~~
MichaelApproved
> _Artificially induce sleep to knock the user out right away or within their
> preferred duration._

That alone would be a billion dollar achievement.

~~~
Liquix
Yeah! I've often dreamed about a pill with a tiny adjustable wheel or button
that you can set to knock you out for X hours and Y minutes.

The problem would be finding a non-narcotic method (modified hypnogogic
headset? Slightly raise CO2/CO levels?) that works reliably. Things like
doxylamine succinate, melatonin, valerian affect everyone differently, and
you're opening a whole nother can of worms with the allergies/dosage/legal
angle. Cool idea OP

------
ggm
Microsleeps are amazingly weird. you are there and then you are .. somewhere
else, and what happened inbetween is unclear. (for some value of 'there' and
'somewhere else')

Anasthaesia, you at least know you're going out to lunch. Microsleeps, its
random. And very dangerous (driving)

The hallucinations were quite a jolt too. I've had the drug induced ones,
these were qualitatively different.

I don't recommend it. Sleep is good. Stick to a good sleep regime, and if you
have problems sleeping seek help (note: waking up in the night and getting
_back_ to sleep is fine. waking up and _not being able_ to get back to sleep,
or not being able to get to sleep in the first place, is not fine)

------
canucker2016
from
[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6112797/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6112797/)

"...Relative risk of injury by Poisson regression showed that the strongest
predictor of injury was <8 hours sleep per night. The results reported that
65% of athletes who reported sleeping <8 hours of sleep per night experienced
an injury over the 21 months of monitoring. It was also reported that athletes
who slept on average <8 hours per night had 1.7 times greater risk of being
injured than the athletes who obtained ≥8 hours of sleep per night."

------
robg
I’m surprised that the work on the glymphatic system still isn’t widely known,
but pretty clear it solves the why. We sleep because the glymphatic process
cleans the brain of the damage caused by waking life.

[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/25947369/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/25947369/)

Seems likely the process is more efficient for some people versus others, just
as it’s active during waking life but much less so. Less/more
clearance/cleaning is mechanistically explained by the need for less/more
sleep.

------
sumosudo
It could get this bad...

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_Sleep_Experiment](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_Sleep_Experiment)

------
gulls
Sleep is indispensable and one should not compromise otherwise it will
compromise with your body. Ontogeny and phylogeny reveal that you can't
separate sleep from body developmentally. It will affect your body from single
molecule to whole body well-being. In case you still want to wake up for work.
I would suggest go for coffee and caffeine inside it will block the
functioning of molecules like adenosine which are actually inducing sleep.

------
OJFord
> Your reaction time will begin lagging around hour 18; after a full night
> without sleep, it will nearly triple—which, for context, is about the same
> as being legally drunk.

Wouldn't a reaction test be much better than breathalysing?

1\. it would catch reasons (such as this) for being unfit to drive besides
drunkenness

2\. it would work whatever your weight / propensity for absorbing alcohol

3\. it tests the actual thing we care about - reading this made me think that
'breathalyser' is an answer to an 'XY question'

~~~
rwmj
Is "legally drunk" (also used in the article) some American term? What does it
mean and how is it different from "illegally drunk"?

~~~
cgriswald
It means meeting the legal definition of being drunk based on blood alcohol
concentration.

------
chiaro
Another thing not mentioned, which I'd noticed recently after a couple of very
poor nights, was feeling very dehydrated. Drinking a lot of water didn't seem
to help, and it all went straight through. Some surface level research
indicated that it could be a lack of vasopressin, so it makes me wonder if
taking a small amount of desmopressin (with sufficient hydration electrolytes)
would help take the unpleasant edge off the next day.

------
blackflame
Ive been up 72 hours straight before and I gotta say, no talking pumpkins.
Sure cognitive ability is impaired but this article is extremely dramatic.

------
laurex
I've had sleep issues since I was a child and I have been interested in the
area of sleep for a long time. One of the biggest challenges in this is that I
know lack of sleep is very unhealthy in a number of dimensions AND the more I
focus on trying to sleep and how bad it is to miss sleep WHEN I'm having sleep
issues, the less likely it is I'll be able to sleep.

------
RachelF
The breakdown of the body and will that sleep deprivation causes is well known
to those who use "enhanced interrogation techniques".

[https://www.humanrightsfirst.org/senate-report-cia-
torture/s...](https://www.humanrightsfirst.org/senate-report-cia-
torture/sleep-deprivation)

------
wave100
Reading this before having to pull an all-nighter for the two exams I have
tomorrow may not have been the best idea.

------
mrhappyunhappy
As a designer I often run into creative blocks. Sleeping on them usually
brings clarity. I’ve made it a point to never hand over any project until I’ve
slept on it and had a chance to look it over the next day. Almost always I’ll
find something that needs fixing or that could be done better!

------
Barrin92
the article points to a lot of adverse health effects that undoubtedly exist
but it also sounds a little dramatic.

That sleep deprivation after 18 hours for example significantly degrades
performance is something I have not experienced. The sluggishness after all-
nighters I can attest to but not to the level that I'd compare it to alcohol
intoxication.

I've heard of people having drug-induced hallucinations after days without
sleep, but the article states that hallucinations seem to be common after only
48 hours, which surprised me.

In general, I've had to deal with lack of sleep a lot in my life, first in the
military and later when co-founding a business, and while it definitely wasn't
always pleasant, I'm not sure it's quite as bad as people nowadays make it out
to be.

~~~
boomboomsubban
>I've heard of people having drug-induced hallucinations after days without
sleep, but the article states that hallucinations seem to be common after only
48 hours, which surprised me.

I think the usual hallucinations aren't as complex as the example. More simple
shapes, colors, or sounds that aren't actually there. You may have experienced
them and not been bothered enough to even remember it.

------
Taylor_OD
Does anyone else find it difficult to get consistent sleep regardless of their
efforts?

Since starting a more stressful job most weeks I have at least one night a
week where my sleep is disturbed at some point and I find it difficult to get
back to sleep.

------
andrelgomes
Just started reading "Man and His Symbols" by Carl Jung (would recommend), and
as other people posted, Jungarian beleive that dreams are more active than
random passive thoughts. New ideas can come through the sub-conscious.

------
davchana
My experience with no sleep was about 10 years ago when I was working as a
video editor for a photographer friend. In season, we used to pull 1 or 2 all
nighters, n then sleep whole next day. Lots of coffee helped too.

------
xuesj
Lao zi said "the nature law told is not the really nature law" in the famous
book of Daodejing. People know very litter about sleep which is so important
in human life.

------
BooneJS
You’re supposed to play trivia on no sleep!
[http://www.90fmtrivia.org/](http://www.90fmtrivia.org/)

School was quite empty the Monday after.

------
dubliner2077
>Stay up for longer than 48 hours and you’re looking at behavior that mimics
psychosis—incoherent rambling,

That's me if I am hungry or tired in general. So, 5 minuts enough.

------
cloverich
Obligatory "Why We Sleep" link
[https://www.amazon.com/dp/B06ZZ1YGJ5](https://www.amazon.com/dp/B06ZZ1YGJ5).
Writing is ok, but content is great. In short, sleep impacts many more aspects
of your health than most realize and is well understood in many aspects. For
instance, I was surprised to learn that poor sleep the week after learning
something can significantly reduce your recall of it. When slowly learning
something over a few months, it's the difference between retaining it well or
not at all. Overall, it motivated me to finally start taking sleep seriously
-- going to sleep earlier, at consistent times, swapping out my blue tinted
led's, etc. Its made a very large impact on my day to day well being, and I
wish I'd started much sooner.

~~~
getpost
Here's the first part of Peter Attia's three part interview with Matthew
Walker (6+ hrs total listening time!). Most of the content of the book is
covered; it's very motivating insofar as prioritizing sleep quality.
[https://peterattiamd.com/matthewwalker1/](https://peterattiamd.com/matthewwalker1/)

Matthew Walker's main site:
[https://www.humansleepscience.com/](https://www.humansleepscience.com/)

~~~
mvansch
Also interesting to see him on Joe Rogan:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pwaWilO_Pig](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pwaWilO_Pig)

------
puranjay
I'm an amateur musician. Somehow all my best musical ideas pop into my brain
right when I'm about to fall asleep.

Lots of other musicians I've spoken to say the same thing.

Why is that?

~~~
verma7
You might find the last section "Sleep spindles and intelligence" in
[https://www.tuck.com/sleep-spindles/](https://www.tuck.com/sleep-spindles/)
interesting.

------
vsyu
I think we often emphasize the importance of exercise and diet for healthy
living which are definitely essential, but sleep should also be added to that
list.

------
hahaa
On duty for 68 hours when I was in the army. A strange feeling, in the end it
was like I was drunk(like after a bottle of wine)

~~~
Havoc
>On duty for 68 hours when I was in the army.

Who the hell came up with that plan? Like have they met an actual human
before...ever?

------
hahaa
On duty for 68 hours when I was in the army. A strange feeling, felt drunk
(like after a bottle of wine)

------
xhruso00
I have a feeling that we have been genetically created to sleep so Matrix can
longer work ;)

------
tilolebo
So if your application has performance issues you don't understand, just add a
sleep.

------
K0SM0S
I've suffered from insomnia most of my teen and adult life (I am 37). I
sometimes go up to 3 days without sleep (thus 2 nights, ~60 hours total;
'record' just shy of 80 hours), then sleep for ~12 hours. I usually work
almost the _entire_ time.

My "default" day seems to last 25~30 hours, give or take, which means that
naturally there are more like 6 'days' per week for me. _( 'days' roughly
defined as periods of wake time >12h between sleep times >6 hours)_ Sometimes,
a 'night' just skips, well beyond 30 hours into the 40's or more — a _no show_
, literally — and I simply go on for that time...

But knowing this, and being a workhorse in permanent training — _I made a
point in my early 20 's to train myself to become able to work for 12~16 hours
a day if I want to, because it seemed like a skill in demand_ — I've largely
accustomed myself to my weird body rythms. It's _OK_. Not that I can do a
marathon in the last 20 hours, but I can function intellectually, emotionally
and socially normally 'enough' that people don't notice unless I tell them —
_goes like: “btw, sorry if I 'm a little slow, I haven't slept in 40 hours...”
“WHAAAT!?... couldn't tell, but please don't die right now!”_

The best judge is quality of work, right? Well, on the next day after a good
_night 's_ sleep, when I look back at it, I'm often amazed actually at the
level of detail and attention, the elegance sometimes (think code, writing,
making stuff/systems). Productivity is admittedly not great due to numerous
breaks (coffee, eating helps a lot, just strolling for 10-15 minutes too), but
not bad at all. 'Good' or 'deep' is more important to me than 'fast' anyway,
so I probably geared for that along the years.

I know all the risks of acute and chronic sleep deprivation, biological,
psychological, I know. It's just surprisingly easy for me, and my body /
thought just won't shut down anyway.

I know I may die young — actually at any time whenever I'm beyond 40 hours
awake... which may happen 10-20 times per year easily. Sometimes twice in a
row (2 nights / 7 days). Nonetheless... it's proved impossible for me, for
now, to just shut down. I admire people who can just go to bed and fall asleep
'on demand'. _What is this sorcery?! Why can 't I?_

I feel like I have unlocked the 'intelligence switch' quite early in my life
(not 100% but well enough), and recently around 34 I unlocked the 'happiness
switch' (took two decades but I basically 'solved' mental states and happiness
for myself, I hope others too when I write this blog/book). I just hope the
'sleep switch' actually exists, and isn't 20 more years down the road for me.

I'll say this: this condition is much harder from a social / career standpoint
than from a physical one. It's easy on my body, but it's been incredibly hard
and frustrating for my mind and heart to be out of sync with civilization for
as long as I can remember. I mostly live in sync with NA, from Europe...
_(would that help a remote position? haha)_

I really don't know what to think of it, I just cope basically, and make the
best out of it.

~~~
cj
I'm not sure how to word this, so please don't take it the wrong way, but have
you been screened for mental health problems? Periods of extended bouts of
energy + productivity followed by sleep sounds like it something that could be
associated with certain forms of bipolar disorder.

Just curious what your personal opinion is of your mental health (and why you
might not fit those typical diagnoses), since I'm sure you've come across
similar information when googling your own symptoms.

~~~
htfu
Sounds more like an adaption to a longer than 24h circadian rhythm than
bipolar disorder, which shouldn't cycle that fast or regularly.

~~~
K0SM0S
You are right on the money. I went to see a specialized "sleep" doctor around
2006 (can't remember the name of the specialty) in Paris, St Anne. He
diagnosed what translates as a "phase shift" of my circadian rythm by ~4 hours
(thus my daily cycle runs 28h give or take, sleep remains at 8-9 hours
though).

I'm really not a biologist, let alone neurologist, but from what information I
could gather, I observe these 'abnormalities' of mine (the good as much as the
bad) all seem to stem from the hypothalamus region/function. E.g. I also have
a weird digestive cycle, basically ketogenic (1 big meal per day, typically
for dinner) is my natural regime. I don't eat for ~10 hours after I wake up
usually, then eat a 1.5~2x meal in quantity. Unless I go to sleep, I'll then
keep eating regularly however.

But how do you even investigate, let alone 'fix' a malfunctioning
hypothalamus?.. I never heard or read anything about such research let alone
treatment.

------
robkon1
so body die

