
Taking a Second Look at the Learn-To-Code Craze - rbanffy
https://theconversation.com/taking-a-second-look-at-the-learn-to-code-craze-86597
======
dkarl
_The Obama administration 's "Computer Science For All" initiative and the
Trump administration's new effort are both based on the idea that computer
programming is not only a fun and exciting activity, but a necessary skill for
the jobs of the future._

Why should I read beyond this? If this were truly the justification for the
program, it would be patently ridiculous — as ridiculous as claiming that
solving algebra problems was a necessary skill for the jobs of the 20th
century — but I doubt anyone ever seriously described it that way. The Obama
announcement is still on the web[1] (I assume Trump's initiative is only
described in a semiliterate 3am tweet) and it describes tech _careers_ as fun,
not programming, and it touts the value of "computational thinking skills" for
many jobs, not programming. Teaching programming in schools is akin to
teaching algebra or history. There's a spectrum of effects: some kids will
develop the skill further and use it directly in their work, some will get a
basic understanding that will enable them to work effectively with the first
group, and the rest will get some exposure that will make them more effective
people (for their own purposes and everyone else's) in a society where it's a
powerful force shaping everything around us.

If the author can't make their point without basing it on this fundamental
misrepresentation, I won't bother clicking through.

[1]
[https://obamawhitehouse.archives.gov/blog/2016/01/30/compute...](https://obamawhitehouse.archives.gov/blog/2016/01/30/computer-
science-all)

~~~
nanomoose
Well... if you read up to that point you would also have read "is the key to
the future for both children and adults alike" \- and you've only addressed
the kids bit. I think the silly craze has died down a bit in the UK, but a few
years ago we were subjected to such excitement as the news highlighting
activities like c level execs doing coding classes in their lunchbreaks - 10
o'clock news?! This may have been about the same time as the BBC microbit was
produced - I've heard nothing of that recently either. Easiest way to confirm
it was a silly craze is to watch peak daft hysteria disappear into the
distance.

~~~
dkarl
The idea of making some degree of programming universal in the school
curriculum both predates and will outlast the craze you're talking about. I
don't know about the Trump plan, but Obama proposed spending hundreds of
millions of dollars changing the way hundreds of millions of elementary to
high school aged kids are taught. If such a program is carried out, the
effects and the costs will be felt over decades.

 _c level execs doing coding classes in their lunchbreaks_

This just doesn't sound weird to me at all. CTOs read about marketing and
finance; pharma CFOs read about biochemistry. Execs spend an afternoon working
in the call center or learning to operate a jackhammer to prove they're
regular guys. It's what you get when you mix ambition, personal curiosity,
image awareness, and having the authority to make stuff like that happen. In
that context it's not as significant as the 10 o'clock news might make it
sound.

------
jbattle
I'm very skeptical that we should be pushing masses of kids to learn to
program, to the detriment of other subjects already being squeezed for
classroom time. I love programming but I just don't see why everyone should be
required to learn what is IMO a very fun but pretty niche skill.

However, I do think there are a lot of adjacent skills that can be learned
through the practice of programming which all kids _should_ be taught (whether
through learning to write code or repairing cars or through other pedagogic
methods):

\- How to break down a complex process into a bunch of simpler steps

\- How to recognize abstract patterns and what variables might differ in
various situations

\- How to use tangible evidence and your understanding of how a system works
to 'debug' some phenomenon

\- How to "evaluate code in your head" \- think through the implications of
how a change to a system might work

Programming is a specific skill useful in a bunch of situations, but not
universally practical.

Critical thinking is a universally useful skill adaptable to a wide number of
situations. A citizen body better versed in critical thinking would (I
propose) make our society function better.

~~~
noxToken
I started volunteering this year to teach students to code. We're halfway
through the year, and this couldn't be more apparent. Without a true interest
in learning to program, these students won't remember 10% of what they've been
taught at this time next year. Problem solving, troubleshooting, (as you've
listed) or basic IT/computer literacy skills (why isn't my device connected to
the Internet?) would take students much further.

Don't get me wrong - a lot of people can get benefit from learning to write an
automation script or small program of some sort to take care of an annoyance.
Taking a programming course for one year in HS, and then forgetting about it
for 3 years will put you marginally ahead of someone just starting. On that
same token, I don't expect someone who took Cal II at university to
derive/integrate a bunch of equations 3 years later.

Programming isn't a muscle memory skills like riding a bicycle. It takes
practice.

~~~
raducu
I have three work colleagues who started teaching a "programming academy".

They selected 18 people out of 80 applications. The last time I checked with
them, just like I predicted, they expected 4-5 to actually finish the course.

The selected people are not high school students pushed by their parents, most
have a technical background and came knowing fully well that getting a
programming job in the future will increase their salary dramatically.

------
justinhj
As a lifelong programmer that pursued programming even before I had a computer
I am very biased here but... teaching people how to code at school is very
empowering because the devices they carry around with them and the servers
they interact with are not magical in anyway, yet they seem that way if you
don't understand the basics of how computers work and what a program looks
like.

For those who have not considered programming, being forced into it school may
not be pleasant, but for many they may find it as delightful and fun as I do
and we will bring more people into the programming community.

The article tries hard to make it a bad thing that big computer companies want
to be able to hire qualified staff in the future, but clearly it is not. Any
country without programs that nurture young programmers and encourage them to
pursue it as a career will be behind the rest of the world in software, which
is not a place you want to be.

~~~
dangerbird2
One reason I support "learn to code" initiative is that k-12 schools started
introducing computers in the 80s when your Apple][, C64, BBC Micro, etc uses a
BASIC interpreter as the core software operating system, learning to use a
computer and learning to code were one and the same. It's extremely important
for young people to understand that despite the shiny user experiences of
modern devices, phones and computers today don't operate fundamentally
differently than a 1980s IBM PC, or a 1960s IBM mainframe. This will help them
prepare for when technology inevitably changes as they get older.

------
wgj
I benefited from the Apple IIe program in schools back in the early 80s.
(Mentioned in the full article.) Still programming today, and have no idea
what I'd be doing now if not for that pivotal situation. It gave me the idea,
the motivation and the confidence to pursue an engineering degree. Before
that, I had no idea what I wanted to do after high school.

~~~
khedoros1
In the early 90s, we were still using some variety of Apple II. I was too
young for programming, at the time. It was basically 45 minutes of Oregon
Trail or Math Blasters per week.

I found the QBASIC interpreter on the family computer around 1994 and begged a
70s-era BASIC book of code listings. I didn't get far without instruction, but
when I had a chance at programming classes in my sophomore year of high
school, I jumped on it.

I knew that I wanted to do something with computers when I was 8 or 10 years
old. The programming classes certainly helped to start demystifying computers
for me, and gave me a boost of confidence, though.

------
Sir_Cmpwn
Another long term goal is making the software job market more competetive so
they can bring down expensive salaries.

~~~
mlevental
you know during medieval times and the victorian age there were guilds and
they constrained the number of new apprentices yearly in order to bolster
their own salaries (and egos). if my salary goes down by 50% but twice as many
people get access to a middle class lifestyle then so be it.

~~~
rb808
> you know during medieval times and the victorian age there were guilds and
> they constrained the number of new apprentices yearly in order to bolster
> their own salaries

You mean like doctors in 2017?

~~~
dangerbird2
Except having an unqualified cooper in the middle ages meant wine might leak
out of its cask. An unqualified doctor today means people will die.

~~~
TuringNYC
You are assuming that every doctor not accepted into the very small Residency
Class each year is unqulified. You'd be surprised to see how tiny most
residency classes are in the US. Also, they are usually closed to foreign
medical graduates, even the absolutely highest scorers with immaculate
credentials.

The more obvious explanation is that the supply is very tightly controlled by
the specialty boards (essentially cartels) to ensure low supply and
consistently high pay [for themselves] and higher bills for the rest of the
population.

------
crispytx
I'm really grateful for the "Learn to Code Craze," as I never would have
gotten into programming were it not for the media campaigns daring me to do
it. It's taken a lot longer than 3 months as the boot-camps would lead people
to believe, but it's definitely been worth it.

------
__sha3d2
> the fact remains that only half of college students who majored in science,
> technology, engineering or math-related subjects get jobs in their field
> after graduation

Whoops! This is a huge piece missing from the conversation. I'm in EdTech and
I had no idea. Can we get a source?

~~~
jmalicki
[https://www.census.gov/newsroom/press-
releases/2014/cb14-130...](https://www.census.gov/newsroom/press-
releases/2014/cb14-130.html)

Note that some of the assumptions are a bit comical, like an economics major
who works in finance or a biology major who becomes a physician are considered
STEM majors who work in non-STEM fields.

Still, the overall picture isn't great even if you look past those weird
classifications.

~~~
marcoperaza
To go on a bit of a tangent, one of the things that gives me pause about my
otherwise enthusiastic support of capitalism is the horrible waste of talent.

How many mathematicians and physicists are going into finance to produce
marginal improvements in liquidity, instead of contributing to the advancement
of human knowledge?

How many brilliant software engineers are working on mindless CRUD and API-
piping tasks at Google, Microsoft, Amazon, et al.?

How many great doctors go into high-paying, no-research, largely menial
positions instead of working on medical breakthroughs?

Capitalism probably does a better job at allocating talent than any other
economic system we know of, but the results are still depressing.

~~~
jmalicki
How much talent is wasted coming up with medical breakthroughs that are _not
used to save lives_ because doctors who are interested enough in knowing the
medical start of the art, because all of those who have an interest go into
medical research, leaving people to die?

------
sthielen
Another way to frame this, which might invalidate/color some of the linked
article's points, is to consider "coding literacy" within the context of how
the world is moving, and how coding and programming-related concepts are
becoming more commonplace and necessary in non-technical careers, and, indeed,
in our everyday lives.

In the world these kids will grow up into, having this skillset will be as
obvious as having the ability to write one's own documents (as opposed to
creating documents via dictation and secretaries/typists), or create one's own
presentations. And when being able to program (& I'm using that word loosely;
i.e., not everyone is going to be a Haskell dev, but everyone _should_ be able
to build "software") is as commonplace and widespread as those previously-
technical skills, all kinds of new and amazing use cases will emerge (consider
all the things people do with spreadsheets--not everyone is creating financial
models...far from it--and the people using spreadsheets to make shopping
lists, or organize a Little League roster, or track social media post
engagement, are not "Excel Engineers").

------
maltalex
None of this is surprising. Corporations, like people, tend to think of
themselves in the noblest of terms, even when they are clearly pushing their
own agenda. And in this instance, they are pushing all the right buttons -
"Children", "Education", and "Jobs". Who can resist?

But having said that, who _should_ resist? What is the actual downside of this
push? Programming is exposing children to math and science, it improves
problem-solving skills and allows kids to create something on their own. Not
all of them will use these skills as adults or get any additional education in
the area, and that's totally fine.

------
soneca
> _the fact remains that only half of college students who majored in science,
> technology, engineering or math-related subjects get jobs in their field
> after graduation._

Most of (~70%?) my colleagues from engineering university indeed went to banks
or management consulting firms. The thing is that none of them can or ever
wanted to code. I see no sense in using this fact to argue that there is no
skills gap.

More broadly, I am part of this "code craze" and decided to learn to code. I
think it is a great thing and I advise all my friends with children to include
some basic programming skills in their education. I am not even in the US. I
am not directly affected by this huge corps influence (I think). I used
freeCodeCamp.org to learn. And actually, the transition to becoming a software
developer made me move from Windows to Linux in both my professional and
personal computers.

I have no doubt that companies are using this trend as an opportunity to grow.
But companies do that with Christmas, seasons of the year, wind, sunlight,
demographic transition...

Personally, I have two certainties: learning basic coding skills is a good
thing for students and companies are pursuing their own interests. One thing
doesn't exclude the other.

~~~
Terr_
> I advise all my friends with children to include some basic programming
> skills in their education.

The nice thing about programming is that it's one of the fields where
"edutainment" isn't an eye-rolling euphemism, since a bunch of the problem-
solving can be restated into flexible puzzles.

For example, Infinifactory isn't an explicit coding-game, but a lot of the
same problem-solving (and debugging) skills are in-play.

------
crispinb
I help out teaching kids programming at a code club in my local library. I
don't do it because I want ever larger numbers of kids to code, but because I
believe in equality of opportunity (the library is free to all), and it's fun
and enlivening to engage with children.

Some of the kids are focused and enjoy learning, others really want to play
games. Some are just bored (stashed there by parents grateful to be able to
browse books in peace), or are just accompanying more engaged siblings).

It's perfectly obvious that, like every other activity, engagement in
programming comes from a kernel of indigenous interest (wherever this
originates).

What's even more obvious is the cruelty and blind unreality of trying to mash
people into a mould dictated by a so-called 'economy'.

------
Jtsummers
[http://theconversation.com/taking-a-second-look-at-the-
learn...](http://theconversation.com/taking-a-second-look-at-the-learn-to-
code-craze-86597)

The ACM link is an abstract which links to this link.

~~~
dang
Thanks! Chnanged from [https://cacm.acm.org/news/223361-taking-a-second-look-
at-the...](https://cacm.acm.org/news/223361-taking-a-second-look-at-the-learn-
to-code-craze/fulltext).

