
LiChess: Learn from your mistakes - akkartik
https://en.lichess.org/blog/WFvLpiQAACMA8e9D/learn-from-your-mistakes
======
nilkn
lichess is legitimately one of the most impressive web applications I've seen
and used. I've never been a big fan of playing chess, but I discovered the
site several months ago, and it allowed me to get into the game in a way that
I thought I never would.

It started with the tactical puzzles. They're derived algorithmically (using
Stockfish analysis) from games actually played on the website. This alone is
fascinating:

[https://en.lichess.org/blog/U4sjakQAAEAAhH9d/how-training-
pu...](https://en.lichess.org/blog/U4sjakQAAEAAhH9d/how-training-puzzles-are-
generated)

My favorite thing about the puzzles though is that I can easily explore
suboptimal solutions using lichess's analysis tools. If I ever got a puzzle
wrong, my first question wouldn't be what the right move was, but rather why
my move was bad. This is trivial to answer with the analysis tools. You can
even see the game that the puzzle was derived from and see what moves the
players actually made.

The site is just a goldmine.

~~~
Fnoord
Very cool project, I was blown away by this feature.

Did stumble upon a bug though. I had three puzzles which I thought were buggy.
I forgot the URL and details on the first one (so it may or may not been
buggy), and I was flat out wrong about the second one (a bishop was making
sure a horse couldn't move which I thought could be used to take the piece
supposedly causing checkmate).

My third one though is clearly buggy:
[https://en.lichess.org/training/61461](https://en.lichess.org/training/61461)

Its not over when the game says victory. Black has 4 (! EDIT: 3, but still)
ways to avoid the checkmate, and Stockfish also suggests these moves.

Nevertheless a very nice project, including Stockfish integration. I can't
repeat that enough! App of the year for me.

~~~
nilkn
I don't think the goal of that puzzle is to achieve checkmate. "Victory" just
means you solved the puzzle, not that the game is over.

The goal is just to find the most optimal move given the board configuration.
In that particular position, white can use its knight to simultaneously attack
the black king and queen. Since the king is more important, it must be moved,
effectively forcing black to sacrifice their queen. So the goal of that puzzle
isn't to checkmate black, but to use a temporary check against black to
capture the black queen (at the cost of a white knight -- still a worthwhile
exchange, since the queen is much more powerful than a knight).

~~~
Fnoord
Yes, I was wrong, and I concur. I have since my post completed puzzles which
do _not_ have the goal to reach checkmate. For example, I had the goal of
'deflecting' an attack where I was in severe disadvantage. Its refreshing to
have different goals, and forces the player to think outside of the box for
such a goal thereby increasing the difficulty.

FWIW, I do not agree is (always) more powerful than a knight, but generally
they are (while a queen is more powerful than a rook or bishop which is almost
always better, a knight has a unique utility).

------
fsiefken
LiChess is one of the most amazing hosted platforms out there, it's very fast,
it has a minimalistic design, it has no ads and does the thing that it does
very well.

Furthermore they sympathetically state: "Lichess mobile is developed and
translated to 80 languages by volunteers. Just like the website, it's 100%
free forever, and there will never be advertisements. This is humanist
software, made open source for the love of chess and user freedom."

But there are two things on my wishlist 1) make the website work off-line 2)
new variant to change the chess rules to accommodate a smaller board 5x6, 4x5
or 6x6 for even shorter games.

~~~
lumberjack
>new variant to change the chess rules to accommodate a smaller board 5x6, 4x5
or 6x6 for even shorter games.

That makes no sense. You can have games as short as you want. Just play using
a different time control. I play 1+2 (minute plus seconds) and those games
last 2 to 3 minutes at most.

BTW with variants, you're not really playing chess anymore. You're playing a
different game with chess pieces. Not all the strategy and tactics transfer
well if at all.

~~~
fsiefken
Yes, but variants are supported in the application, anti-chess, horde, atomic,
three-check etc. Agreed, those are not really chess, as the rules or end
conditions are significantly changed. But it's like chess960 chess, the pieces
are on a different position or there are less pieces and a smaller board. The
reason for my wish is that I want to play a small chess game with my son
before bed, it should be a bit less daunting then a complete chessboard and
only use a few pieces, so it would be both quick and easy. A time constrained
regular chess game would be quick but less easy or usable for a young kid.

~~~
maaaats
Can't you just make this yourself? Why does it have to be a part of the
lichess platform?

~~~
derrickdirge
Why do any rule variants have to be a part of the lichess platform?

~~~
fsiefken
Hi Derrick, I gave my personal answer and lichess gives this answer: "Chess
variants introduce variations of or new mechanics in regular Chess that gives
it a unique, compelling, or sophisticated gameplay. Are you ready to think
outside the box?"

[https://en.lichess.org/variant](https://en.lichess.org/variant)

------
sscotth
If your interested in cool and unique features, try resetting your password:

[https://en.lichess.org/password/reset](https://en.lichess.org/password/reset)

~~~
lbrandy
This is clever but it can't be a good captcha. Computers are really good at
understanding a visual chessboard and even better at actually finding the best
move.

~~~
thinkloop
I had the same thought, but on further reflection, while it's very doable to
get a computer to figure it out, it still seems like quite a bit of work to
have it read, parse, analyse and play the move for this specific page, on this
one website for a low value payout. Additionally there is natural language
question that has to be understood for what you are supposed to do - it
doesn't necessarily have to be mate.

Since security is fundamentally increasing costs enough to outweigh the prize,
I feel like this makes it.

------
csmajorfive
lichess.org and the corresponding open source project[1] are really quite
something. If you're at all interested in chess or code, I recommend following
it -- their great execution will inspire you.

[1] [https://github.com/ornicar/lila](https://github.com/ornicar/lila)

~~~
wallace_f
This may sound naive, but what are the incentives and/or how are the
developers of Lichess making a profit. The site is one of the best executed
webapps I've ever used. What motivates the creators?

~~~
jdjb
Thibault simply wants to deliver the best online chess experience. Period.

It's purely donation driven and he pulls a small salary from whatever's
leftover after buying enough servers to keep the site up.

~~~
ggrochow
detailed cost breakdown

[https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1CGgu-7aNxlZkjLl9l-Ol...](https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1CGgu-7aNxlZkjLl9l-OlL00fch06xp0Q7eCVDDakYEE/edit#gid=0)

( link came from here
[https://en.lichess.org/patron](https://en.lichess.org/patron) )

~~~
oli5679
I'm supprised that they get $47 mn in donations. Rarely see the patron icon
when I play.

~~~
Someone
$47k, not million. Amounts in that spreadsheet aren't in thousands.

~~~
oli5679
Apologies, thanks for clarifying

------
marsrover
Nice to see lichess.org on here. I'm a huge fan of the iPhone app. I usually
just try to solve the puzzles of the day to and from work while on the train.
It has helped my chess game a good bit.

It can be rather addicting, also. On more than one occasion, my wife has
gotten annoyed with me just sitting on the couch for hours trying to solve the
puzzles :P

------
pk2200
The Lichess author gave a tech talk last year where he discussed the design of
the client and server.

[https://www.infoq.com/fr/presentations/lichessorg-open-
sourc...](https://www.infoq.com/fr/presentations/lichessorg-open-source-
success-story)

------
dfc
My big problem with lichess is that you are allowed to pick white when you set
up your game request and/or if someone starts a match with you and they have
black pieces they can cancel game after you make your first move with no
penalty. If you query the top players games in blitz or lightning their ratio
of white/black games is ridiculous.

~~~
cristoperb
I agree it's annoying. But at least if you use the new "Quick game" pairing
system there is no option to choose a color.

~~~
dfc
So now it's just people who quit half the quick games they start with you?

~~~
maxmcd
There is anti-boosting logic that disables your account if you abandon too
many games

------
panic
It's interesting that even the best chess engines are still worse at analyzing
openings than humans.

~~~
smallnamespace
Is that actually the case, or perhaps humans try a lot of sub-optimal opening
lines?

~~~
robryan
Sub optimal from the perspective of the AI, some positions that seem easy for
an AI looking 10 moves ahead might be tricky for your opponent.

~~~
smallnamespace
If your goal is to win, wouldn't you want to play the move that always leads
to a win 10 moves ahead, rather than a move that looks immediately tricky but
is actually escapable for the other player?

And given that you want to become a better chess player, isn't it better to
start learning the _best_ lines from the start?

~~~
wallace_f
> If your goal is to win, wouldn't you want to play the move that always leads
> to a win 10 moves ahead

Sure, but the King's Gambit is just an opening, and you'd have to rely on lazy
mistakes to guarantee a win 10 moves ahead that early in the game.

~~~
smallnamespace
Right, but game theory tells us that for every single position, perfect play
either leads to a win for one player or a draw, and for every position, there
is a best reply.

To the extent that an AI approaches perfect play more closely than a novice or
masters from the 19th century, shouldn't we go learn from the AI?

One interpretation of Stockfish here is 'I don't think this is a very strong
opening'. To the extent that it's correct, stronger players will not play that
opening very much, so spending time to learn it seems potentially wasteful.

~~~
wallace_f
Chess engines (I suppose that could be called AI) as well as databases of
games have developed opening chess theory very significantly because of these
reasons.

For perspective, Bobby Fischer created a version of chess which randomized the
game because even in his day, he was annoyed that some players that he felt
were far inferior at playing chess, could actually better memorize opening
lines and enter the mid game with an advantage.

So the answer is that players very well have been learning from AI.

>To the extent that an AI approaches perfect play more closely than a novice
or masters from the 19th century

AI has become better than even the top chess players of today.

------
sedlich
Lichess is so awesome, it really changed my life. The features I use most: 1\.
The tactics trainer is incredible and fun. You get tactics ELO and the tactics
stem from real games. Hence you can replay the game and see how this position
arose. 2\. The new tactics trainer from your own games is wonderful (but many
other desktop programs had this before). 3\. The analyse game function using
stockfish is wonderful. Even continuously with a few lines + arrows in the
game, you get immediately what you have missed. 4\. The study section is
awesome. I tried to build up a complete new opening repertoire with it in
parallel to the leading chessbase tool. And guess what: It's free and a nice
competitor to chessbase. All study pgns can surely be exported and imported to
chessbase. 5\. I really like the simul section. You find many dozen simuls a
day. 25-50% of players are with 2000-2500 Elo. 6\. And if you watch the lobby
in the diagram mode you always find your right partner, right time, right
chess variant. 7\. And of course, the mobile version is also great. Keep on
guys! We love you.

------
slilo
I'd like to have similar tool for the game of Go!

~~~
eth0up
I was thinking precisely the same. I love both games, but I'd love to see the
equivalent for Go.

~~~
MichaelGG
Many Faces of Go has some analysis tools that might be helpful:
[http://www.smart-games.com/manyfaces.html](http://www.smart-
games.com/manyfaces.html)

I found it worth the price. And the lower kyu AI was actually fun to play.

------
oli5679
I'm a big fan of lichess. Great UX and analysis features. The only issue I
have with it is that disconnection auto-forfeits the game. Would love 30
seconds grace to reconnect (like they give you on chess.com).

------
crashbunny
The future grand masters who are 10 years old atm will be far in front of the
current crop of grand masters due to improvements like this.

------
no_wizard
Gotta ask and I ain't trying to start a flame war here.... how's the community
compared to say, ICC? I was a big time user of ICC back in the day simply
because the average player was high caliber after FICS started to become a bit
of a dead zone for standard players (I like 45 5 or higher timed classic games
)

~~~
nsted
There are more high level players on ICC because that's where the high level
players are. Chess.com also has a decent interface, but they particularly
excel in chess news, event coverage and community support.

~~~
pk2200
> There are more high level players on ICC because that's where the high level
> players are

It appears this is not the case, anymore. I logged in to both servers this
afternoon, and counted the number of players rated over 2350. Lichess had 50,
ICC had 6. I logged in again tonight and saw roughly the same ratio.

~~~
TylerE
WHAT ratings though? Ratings are not comparable across different player pools.

~~~
pk2200
My Lichess & ICC ratings are typically within 50 points of each other. It's
the same for a friend of mine who plays on both servers, too.

------
jgladch
The LiChess guys are just the best. The BEST!!!!

------
mdevere
how does this compare to chess.com ? that site also has a post-game analyse
feature which presents alternative lines

~~~
mdashx
LiChess analysis is free and better. I don't know what the Chess.com paid
analysis is like, but on LiChess you can just run Stockfish on your games and
analyze different lines as you like. On Chess.com you have way less
flexibility (at least with the free option).

------
qazpot
Most of the times I get this message when I open lichess.

Your connection is not private

Attackers might be trying to steal your information from en.lichess.org (for
example, passwords, messages or credit cards). NET::ERR_CERT_AUTHORITY_INVALID

This resolves after 2-3 days and then within a week it again reappears.

~~~
agarden
That is suspicious. I play on lichess frequently and have never seen an
invalid cert there.

------
no_wizard
Ha how ironic that this was just mentioned in another thread! +1 to you sir!

Now with that said, this looks quite good and really broaches chess in a
modern way in terms of learning. I sure have stacks of books that I wish were
just software, mostly on studying chess tactics

~~~
esfandia
I haven't tried it yet, but there's an app for "running" chess books, i.e. you
can play the positions described in the book right in the app. No need to have
a chess board. According to the site, there's a big list of books that have
been converted to work for that app.

[http://eplusbooks.com/](http://eplusbooks.com/)

------
fferen
_> I tested the new feature on my favorite opening: 1.e4 e5 2.f4!, a.k.a. the
mighty King Gambit. Stockfish hates it, and asked me to review it like it was
a mistake! Yet it's considered playable. Actually Carlsen played it against
Arionian in 2015.

Not acceptable, Mr Stockfish!_

Actually, the King's Gambit has been (essentially) solved:
[https://en.chessbase.com/post/rajlich-busting-the-king-s-
gam...](https://en.chessbase.com/post/rajlich-busting-the-king-s-gambit-this-
time-for-sure)

There is only one move that doesn't lose by force after 2. ... exf4, and that
is the strange-looking 3. Be2. Does that mean this opening is a "mistake"?
Well, maybe not, obviously a human wouldn't know the perfect lines, but
personally I wouldn't play it :)

Either way, I'll certainly be using this feature a lot. Kudos to the folks at
Lichess.

~~~
k2052
The King's Gambit hasn't been solved nor is it likely to be solved any time
soon. That article was one of Chessbase's annual April Fools posts.
[https://en.chessbase.com/post/the-chebase-april-fools-
revisi...](https://en.chessbase.com/post/the-chebase-april-fools-revisited)

~~~
eth0up
I've been under the impression for years that the King's Gambit, despite it
being the best variation/opening of all (IMO), was obsolete at the highest
levels. A chess master/instructor once assured me of this, despite it being
his favorite too. He referred to it as "romantic" and said it was almost never
played at GM level.

~~~
sobellian
It is rather rare at high levels because someone who knows the book lines will
equalize fairly easily as black. That said, it isn't losing for white, nor is
it particularly easy to play as black if you've never studied it in depth.

------
Ologn
I wrote something similar a while ago.
[http://blunderchess.sf.net](http://blunderchess.sf.net) . Actually, the
portion which broke down PGN games into FEN positions is what took a while.

------
gens
I found a good way to improve myself is to play against myself in my head.

------
slig
Can someone recommend excellent books and/or tutorials to learn chess? I know
only basic rules, but no tactics/strategy/opening/etc.

~~~
tomsthumb
For tactics I've never seen anything better than chess tempo [0], which is
free, or for a small yearly subscription you can absolutely go nuts breaking
down tactical themes and combinations of themes, and the tracking is _very_
good. I did several thousand tactics puzzles there and it helped quite a bit.

For books, Beginners Mind by Jeremy Silman is pretty good, as is his endgame
book. Logical Chess by Cherenev is also a great introduction to how skilled
people think about games but takes a different approach than Silman.

[0] - [http://chesstempo.com/](http://chesstempo.com/)

------
LordKano
I just poked around on this site. I think this is what I need to take my chess
game to another level.

------
bravura
Can this only be used for games played on LiChess?

Or can I upload a PGN from, for example @fbchess?

~~~
mdashx
It says it works on imported games.

------
king_kerr
I actually just signed up for this last week.

------
kahrkunne
I'm not a chess player and I lose 9/10 games I play on lichess, yet I still
occasionally go there when I don't feel like playing mahjong, partly because
the website is so pleasant to use.

