
Medieval Price List - danso
http://medieval.ucdavis.edu/120D/Money.html
======
cmdshiftf4
Labourer: £2/year max

7 Books: £5

An average labourer in the UK today would make about £17,000pa, making these
books the modern equivalent of about £42,500 or £6,000 a piece.

Obviously this was at a time before mass printing was available, but this
really puts into perspective just how absolutely unattainable information was
for the average person back then. Remarkable.

~~~
dredmorbius
Somewhere I'd run across a reference to the price of Adam Smith's _Wealth of
Nations_ (published 1776), in terms of a general workingman's wages.

As I recall it was on the order of about 1/5 a typical annual income.

This being in the late 18th century, 300 years _after_ Gutenberg, with a well-
established printing trade.

Books _remained_ staggeringly expensive.

The progress made in printing over the course of the 19th century boggles the
mind. As of 1800, typical presses were _still_ made of wood, and though
printing was generally in quarto or octavo pages (4-8 impressions per side of
paper), a pressman might turn out 120 - 180 impressions an hour, and I believe
that's generous.

The improvements from there were:

\- Cast-iron rather than steel presses. Greater strength, lighter weight,
improved efficiency and mechanism. Print rates doubled.

\- Steam-powered presses. The pressman no longer was responsible for
physically pressing each image.

\- Rotary presses. Rather than Gutenberg's repurposed wine-press design, type
was placed on a drum, with sheets fed through the mechanism.

\- Electric drive. Like steam, but less steamy and more sparky.

\- Web presses. Rather than individual sheets, a continuous sheet of paper.
This is where paper-on-rolls came into being.

\- Speaking of which, paper manufacturing was improving, and costs falling,
all through this period.

\- At the same time literacy rates were increasing from ~10-25% ~1700 to 95%+
by 1900. The people could now read.

\- Typesetting enhancements, including oil-based inks, offset-type (where the
print impression is a 3rd generation from the type originally used to cast the
intermediate slug), linotype, multi-colour presses, improved engraving (for
images), and eventually photo-lithography.

By the end of the century a high-speed electrically-powered Linotype web press
could achieve a million impressions an hour or more.

Compare with webserver hit rates and their improvement from 1990 - 2020.

~~~
sansnomme
And after that:

\- Inkjet

\- Laser

\- Amazon

~~~
quietbritishjim
That's not really compatible to improvements in printing technology. Printing
on home inkjet or let was and still is hugely more expensive and slower per
page than buying a mass produced book or newspaper, and Amazon didn't
introduce any printing technology unless you were referring to e-ink used in
Kindle (but they didn't invent it).

~~~
dredmorbius
Laserjet printing is comparable to the cost of commercial photocopying, at a
few pennies per page. Inkjet is, of course, far more expensive.

There is a trade-off in cost, speed, and access. If you've got a reasonably
high-speed laserprinter, you can provide a printed copy of a book in a few
minutes. There are binding options available as well, some of which are quite
comparable to lower-grade commercial paperback bindings.

Amazon's book sales inclue traditional hard- and soft-cover pre-printed
materials, as well as print-on-demand, and electronic books. I'd consider most
of Amazon's book sales and production at least adjunct to, and in cases,
directly part of, improvements in print technology. Distribution itself has
been a nontrivial problem.

------
nabla9
Medieval pricing and economy is interesting. I just listened a lecture last
summer.

These were not free market prices. "Fair price" was moral issue within the
community. You could not charge too much extra if the customer faced sudden
urgent demand. And buyer was not allowed to exploit the seller either.
Exploiting temporary scarcity or oversupply when bargaining would get you into
trouble with the law, the guild etc. Determining the fair price level was
delicate political process.

~~~
NeedMoreTea
Not necessarily a bad thing, as prices weren't regulated to be inflexible
either. In response to merchant abuse, adulteration and fraud a whole slew of
measures evolved, including the 1266 Bread and Ale Assizes. The court assizes
were responsible for setting the fair price which both took into account
supply and demand, and local variation, and for sampling the goods produced.
This was not a national economy, the "right" price for ale or grain could vary
just a mile or two down the road, or in the next valley over, subject to local
weather and harvests. Which is why the local assize courts controlled it.

One of the other interesting things was bread and some other foods adjusted to
supply and demand by changing weight not price. Each assize set the current
right weight of a farthing loaf. A standard weight loaf came much later, in
the 19th century!

There were also aletasters, breadmasters and a whole variety of others who
would engage in sampling, and sometimes use of secret shopping, to ensure the
local merchants for a particular good were producing quality, weight and not
adulterating. What is less clear is whether they took their role seriously or
whether it was a sinecure for free food and beer. The fines seem, in some
regions, to have often been small and arbitrary, and it was often all under
the auspices of the manor. Was it a valuable piece of Medieval regulation, or
corruption? Well, going on how the Assizes of Bread and Ale played out, there
was ample opportunity for local corruption and arbitrary fees.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assize_of_Bread_and_Ale](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assize_of_Bread_and_Ale)

~~~
TeMPOraL
> _What is less clear is whether they took their role seriously or whether it
> was a sinecure for free food and beer._

Could it have been both? I mean, if I decided to work as a taster of bread and
ale just to have free food, I'd still like that food to be of at least
passable quality, and I would complain if it was adulterated. The incentives
of employer and employee seem to align here.

------
dsr_
Thatcher's daily wage: 3 pence a day. Price for a tunic: 3 shillings.

A tunic is two weeks' earnings. Let's say you make $36,000 a year; two weeks'
earnings for you is $1500.

The invention of mill-powered looms began the Industrial Revolution,
completely upending the economies of Europe.

~~~
s0rce
Thatchers didn't do too well, not much use for that profession any more.

~~~
LanceH
They definitely suffer from a grass ceiling.

~~~
StavrosK
Well done.

------
purpleidea
This is super interesting, however I think it would have been more fun to read
if it also had a column of approximate price in adjusted $CAD for example.
That way it would be easier to get a "feel" for what stuff was worth.

Also, why isn't Salt on the list? Wasn't that a crucial thing?

------
Vaslo
Feels like I’m reading a Dungeons & Dragons item sheet except using British
units instead of gold, silver, and copper.

~~~
zipwitch
As it happens, I've been putting together notes for a new D&D campaign I'll be
running in the near future. I downloaded this exact price list as a reference
three days ago.

------
caublestone
Beer .5 ducat a pint. College starting at 640 ducats a year up to 2560 ducats
a year. So formal education started at 1280 times and went up to 6400 times
the price of a pint. Which at $6/pint today would be ~$7500 to $36k a year.

~~~
zeroonetwothree
In the Bay Area beer is upwards of $10+ now.

~~~
artursapek
That padded salary doesn't feel too good anymore, does it?

------
ben174
Great data. I would love to normalize this and apply an inflation calculator
so people could know what things cost in these times. Anyone want to help?

~~~
mysterypie
Yes, I would love to see this in modern prices, no matter how roughly it gets
converted. The use of pre-decimalized pounds makes it even more inscrutable.
It would make that list a hundred times more interesting if we had some basis
to compare with.

------
gosubpl

      Wine:
        Best Gascon in London         4d/gallon   1331        [2]     194
        Best Rhenish in London        8d/gallon     "          "       "
    
    

This is reversed now, German Riesling much cheaper than Bordeaux.

~~~
UncleSlacky
At the time, Bordeaux was an English possession (Angevin Empire) so the lack
of any complications like import duties would account for the price
difference:

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angevin_Empire](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angevin_Empire)

------
rootbear
Fascinating list, but the notation is confusing in places. The pound sterling
is denoted by an L:

    
    
         1 pound (L) = 20 shillings (s)
    

in the introduction, but in the text both the L and the £ are used, sometimes
in the same line!

    
    
        University:                     
        Minimum     £2£L3/year  Late 14 cen [3]     75
    

What have I missed?

~~~
flyGuyOnTheSly
>What have I missed?

Perhaps that he wrote "The list of medieval prices which follows is by no
means complete or thoroughly researched" in the very first line?

It's not a professionally compiled list meant to present to your boss.

It's just a list that some guy made and put online.

~~~
rootbear
Yes, I understand that. I’m just confused by the author’s use of BOTH the L
and the £ together, on the same line.

------
27182818284
Ignorant question: What is a pound in this case? It isn't actually a pound of
silver in weight, right? I get really confused with modern British currency
and what silver the system was based on in the past, etc.

If I see that something is 20 shillings, does that mean it cost me a pound of
silver by weight out of the ground to buy?

~~~
sonofgod
Yes, it's a weight of silver, around this era.

One Troy pound (373g) [of silver] divided into 240 pennies (making a penny
about 1.55g). Exactly what a shilling is varies, between 4 and 6 pennies. [
[https://regia.org/research/misc/costs.htm](https://regia.org/research/misc/costs.htm)
]

~~~
MagnumOpus
The last time that a "pound sterling" actually bought a pound of Sterling
silver was 1300. Since then, currency debasement was the name of the game and
in the next 300 years the silver content of the currency shrank by a factor of
three.

------
TomMckenny
So a year's rent for a shop in mid London was twice the price of a cow or a
pile of silver worth £240 today.

edit: or half a year's wage for a laborer, equivalent to aprox £9,000 today.

Those ratios seem to have changed: apparently the benefits of greater
efficiency in mining, cattle raising etc. have not be evenly distributed.

------
infoseek12
For anyone else who is wondering what a biciron is, apparently it's a t-shaped
iron wedge that a blacksmith uses to shape metal against. The name seems to
come from a contraction of iron beak, in all the references I came across
online it is written as two words "bic iron".

[https://www.hobby-machinist.com/threads/anvil-stand-
question...](https://www.hobby-machinist.com/threads/anvil-stand-
question.16293/)

[https://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/antique-machinery-
and-...](https://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/antique-machinery-and-
history/peter-wright-anvil-200262/index3.html)

~~~
lookdangerous
I read it in the list, at first, as bitcoin, and had to do a double take.

------
ggm
[http://projects.exeter.ac.uk/RDavies/arian/current/howmuch.h...](http://projects.exeter.ac.uk/RDavies/arian/current/howmuch.html)

[https://thehistoryofengland.co.uk/resource/medieval-
prices-a...](https://thehistoryofengland.co.uk/resource/medieval-prices-and-
wages/)

[http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/currency-
converter/](http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/currency-converter/)

------
madengr
Instruction at Oxford is about 5 anvils/year. Think there has been some price
inflation since then? Maybe better to compare it to barrels of beer.

~~~
edzillion
I am not sure what you mean, but an anvil is about as high-tech a device as
you get in medieval times. They would be one of the most expensive items in a
village.

~~~
madengr
Yes, they are cheap now, that’s why beer would be the better comparison.

~~~
Jamwinner
Still not cheap for a quality anvil, good ones can cost more than a used car.

------
dana321
Its not that long ago we still had 3d etc. 1/4 penny, 1/2 penny here in the
uk. Thrupenny bit.

~~~
dan-robertson
We still had ha’pennies after decimalisation. Even before, the pennies weren’t
worth what they used to be. In parts of the nineteenth century a penny would
be worth something on the order of what 50p is worth today.

I guess with money stored largely in bank accounts and financial instruments,
inflation becomes a more reasonable thing and the fact that it’s annoying to
buy things with physical money matters less. Yet even at the start of the
twentieth century banknotes could be worth a lot more than anything today (in
the U.K. you only go up to £20 normally. Compare to the us where $100 isn’t
abnormal, or to 1900 when 100 £20 notes could buy a moderately sized house
(but there were also £100, £200 notes, and higher denominations though I doubt
they were used much). I think the U.K. should remove every coin less than 10p
(ideally I would get rid of everything less than 50p but perhaps there should
be a 50p and 25p coin for some time) from circulation and issue some new
banknotes (at least a £50 note that shops accept, so maybe a £100 note should
exist too). But I guess that isn’t going to happen because no one really cares
about cash.

~~~
Symbiote
> I think the U.K. should remove every coin less than 10p (ideally I would get
> rid of everything less than 50p but perhaps there should be a 50p and 25p
> coin for some time)

Aim for 5p to be the lowest, to start.

Even in the Nordic countries, where there's less wealth inequality, the
smallest coins are worth 8.4p (Norway 1kr), 8.1p (Sweden 1kr), 5.7p (Denmark
½kr), 4.3p (Finland 5¢).

> issue some new banknotes (at least a £50 note that shops accept

They already do accept them where they're common (e.g. touristy places in
London) so the problem will solve itself, but in any case, the new £50 will be
issued in 2021.

------
haileris
I'd love to use this data and create some sort of feudal economic simulator
and/or build an RPG with these prices as opposed to arbitrary "gp" values.

------
aetherspawn
Rent: 5s/year. Horse: 50s.

Yep. Awesome.

~~~
OJFord
Rent's so variable, but rurally can certainly be as low as £2,400pa (£200pcm)
today. A horse today could also easily exceed £24,000.

~~~
MagnumOpus
And indeed those £2,400pa of rent give you a room with plumbing, central
heating and hot water...

------
misterman0
My whole life I thought it was spelled "midevil" due to this time period being
especially evil. Every day you learn something new.

~~~
haileris
From French médiéval (“middle”), from Latin medium (“middle”) + aevum (“age”).

------
inopinatus
Can’t help but be reminded of that immortal sales pitch: _”I can make whatever
you wish for a wee little bit more than me competition.”_

