
How the U.S. government poisoned alcohol during Prohibition - gnosis
http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/medical_examiner/2010/02/the_chemists_war.single.html
======
jlgreco
I don't find this too hard to believe. Even today we see a push to either
reformulate narcotic painkiller medications to make abuse
difficult/impossible, or bundle them with acetaminophen/paracetamol. The
problem is that when drugs like Oxycontin are reformulated to make abuse
difficult ("Oxycontin OP") addicts are driven to attempt abuse of other
narcotic painkillers which get them the desired affects... but with a
potentially deadly dose of acetaminophen.

So instead of attempting to help these people while providing them with a
safer alternative (methadone clinics exist, but for the most part they
_really_ are not targeted towards the middle-class/middle-aged prescription
painkiller addict crowd), we are pushing to eliminate drugs that are safe to
abuse. This move seems based in the plainly idiotic attitude of _"well if an
addict can't do something safely, he'll just give it up"_.

~~~
Cushman
The thesis of the War on Drugs is pretty much that there are abstract,
amorphous dangers to recreational drug use, and the proper role of government
is to provide immediate, concrete dangers so that people will stop.

It does have a certain twisted logic to it, if you ignore every piece of
empirical evidence generated over the last hundred years.

Mixing Tylenol with oxy is twisted in a different way, because it replaces an
abstract danger (if you take some amount in some period of time, you might
become dangerously dependent) with a somewhat less abstract danger (if you
take some smaller amount in some shorter period of time, you might die).

~~~
venus
In Australia we've had ads which specifically focus on the unsafe, illegal
manufacturing conditions of a banned drug as a reason to avoid the drug. For
example:
[http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-J1b1lX7HRxU/TlBbd9d4WHI/AAAAAAAAAN...](http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-J1b1lX7HRxU/TlBbd9d4WHI/AAAAAAAAANQ/QLsOrAWiWPM/s1600/esctasyfacefacts.png)

When I first saw this ad series I was stunned by the hollow, almost cynical
reasoning on display, only to then be even more stunned by the lack of
reaction in others. Your one-sentence summary of the War On Some Drugs,
however, provides an insightful context to the campaign.

~~~
pbateman
_When I first saw this ad series I was stunned by the hollow, almost cynical
reasoning on display, only to then be even more stunned by the lack of
reaction in others._

There's a substantial cohort of the population[1] that thinks _If something is
illegal it must be wrong. They wouldn't make it illegal unless it was_.
Getting through to these people, in my experience, is almost impossible.

[1] Probably not on HN. But we're not representative of the country at large.

~~~
eli
MP "You can't compare harms from a legal activity with an illegal one."

Professor Nutt "Why not?"

MP "Because one's illegal."

Professor Nutt "Why is it illegal?"

MP "Because it's harmful."

Professor Nutt "Don't we need to compare harms to determine if it should be
illegal?"

MP "You can't compare harms from a legal activity with an illegal one."

[http://www.amazon.com/Drugs-Without-Hot-David-
Nutt/dp/190686...](http://www.amazon.com/Drugs-Without-Hot-David-
Nutt/dp/1906860165)

------
nazgulnarsil
500 people die annually due to acetaminophen poisoning, mostly from attempting
to take too many painkillers which include both opiates and acetaminophen. The
acetaminophen is included for the express purpose of "dissuading abuse."

~~~
dhughes
So many people I know in their 20s only use Tylenol and especially after
drinking binges nobody I know uses Aspirin, zero.

Tylenol the worst thing to take with alcohol after binge drinking it's
terribly hard on your liver.

It's worse for women who can't process ethanol ("alcohol") as well as men due
to women's bodies producing less dehydrogenase which breaks down the ethanol.

From what I understand alcohol and acetaminophen (Tylenol) are processed by
the liver in the same way so ingesting both overloads the liver, more so in
women.

I think liver failure is going to be common in a few years in the 30-something
crowd.

I'm not a doctor and not involved in any way in the medical field just a
concerned citizen.

<https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2248624>
[http://www.health.harvard.edu/fhg/updates/overdoing-
acetamin...](http://www.health.harvard.edu/fhg/updates/overdoing-
acetaminophen.shtml)

~~~
sliverstorm
I can't speak for everyone, but I used Tylenol essentially out of habit as a
young adult, because my parents gave me Tylenol as a child. This makes sense
(I think), I am told aspirin should not be given to children.

So, it's probably just an education thing. Tylenol seems fine at what it does,
and it isn't like people are _misled_. I bet you the label warns against
mixing alcohol with Tylenol, and people really should know not to mix alcohol
with other drugs.

~~~
pimeys
Are they selling Ibuprofein products in the USA? They're only harmful for your
stomach if used a lot and much safer than Paracetamol.

------
dhughes
As a Canadian I laughed at "steep taxes" when I go to the US alcohol is
ridiculously cheap and sometimes given out free (e.g. casinos).

Especially hard liquor and wine, I rarely drink but it's interesting to see
such a huge difference: 6 pack $15, 1 liter Captain Morgan rum $40, Sauvignon
Blanc wine $15

~~~
jlgreco
Probably worth noting that prices and regulations vary wildly on a state-by-
state basis.

In Pennsylvania all liquor _and_ wine can only be purchased from state stores,
and beer can only be purchased from licensed beer distributors (never grocery
stores or the like, with very rare 'technicality' exceptions). (Restaurants
and bars also sell beer, so in practice most people who buy beer in
Pennsylvania will buy a six-pack from the local bar or restaurant, often at
rather steep prices).

In Utah, chances are you won't be able to buy that same $15 six-pack of beer;
alcohol content is limited to 3.2 ABV (very low, for those not versed) unless
the establishment is also licensed to sell liquor.

Then you get into the whole local government regulations/taxes situation.
There are hundreds of "dry counties" in the US where you simply cannot buy
alcohol at all. "Blue Laws" seem to be more common than not, even in cities.

It's a complex situation. In some places in the US alcohol will flow like
water (Such as Vegas, as you eluded to), but in other places alcohol laws will
make Canada appear liberal in that respect.

~~~
dhughes
Funny that you said Pennsylvania that's where I was and where I was thinking
about when writing about cheap US booze.

I'm so used to government run liquor outlets I never even thought about it not
being a private store.

------
adestefan
And it's still done today. Denatured or methylated alcohol is a common product
used around the world as a common solvent. Instead of using denatured alcohol
to mix shellac I just get 190 proof grain alcohol since it's cheaper, but it's
available in very few states.

~~~
sliverstorm
That makes sense though. I think we generally agree as a country that we don't
want to make alcohol freely availible to minors- so what do you do about
industrial usage? Do you _want_ to be carded to buy solvents? Should a
teenager be prevented from buying solvents for painting?

~~~
forgottenpaswrd
"I think we generally agree as a country that we don't want to make alcohol
freely available to minors"

And this is one of your main problems as a country. When I was a kid in Spain
I had access to as much alcohol as I wanted, so with all my family and friends
and school partners (hundreds of people). We had very few problems with that,
being a "borracho" was bad seen by society but moderate consumption was
normal.

There is nothing wrong for a kid drinking some wine or Sider or Cava for
lunch, in fact a lot of families continue giving their children access to low
grade alcoholic drinks as it was done since the Romans(before water filtering
100 years ago drinking water alone meant death by water microorganisms).

Later they forbid it, and "botellon" appeared. It was cool to do something
against the law, "borracho" was replace with "pedo" without the negative
connotations, and our young people started drinking like there was not
tomorrow.

~~~
adestefan
190 proof alcohol, which is what is used as a solvent, is also really, really
bad for you. I know it's available as a In few US states, but what is the
availability in other countries?

~~~
kragen
It's not particularly any worse for you than twice the quantity of 95-proof
alcohol or four times the quantity of 47-proof, although of course any kind of
alcohol is pretty bad. 96% pure alcohol (192 proof) is universally available
in grocery stores and pharmacies here in Argentina, and most brands bear a
notice stating that it is suitable for food use; a few of them also carry
methylated spirits at a slightly lower price. I use the pure alcohol for
cleaning and fuel.

------
noibl
_Other [denaturing formulas] used bitter-tasting compounds that were less
lethal, designed to make the alcohol taste so awful that it became
undrinkable._

This approach was also applied to non-industrial alcohol products, leading to
another round of mass poisoning:

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jamaica_ginger>

~~~
monochromatic
Except this poisoning was due to people trying to get around the government's
required bitterant content.

~~~
betterunix
Which bears an eerie resemblance to the problems we have with methamphetamine
today. Much of the damage caused by methamphetamine abuse is the result of
adulterants in the drug, which is produced under poorly controlled conditions.
Pharmaceutical methamphetamine -- the kind that doctors sometimes prescribe to
children -- causes far less damage to its users and even to those who abuse it
(not to deny that abusing it is dangerous even without the adulterants).

------
gus_massa
Previously submitted: <http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1140603> (126
points, 2 years ago, 53 comments)

------
mtgx
So who was punished in all of this? Let me guess - no one.

------
Deprogrammer9
They do a lot worse things to people today with advanced compounds.

Substances which will promote illogical thinking and impulsiveness to the
point where the recipient would be discredited in public.

Substances which increase the efficiency of mentation and perception.

Materials which will cause the victim to age faster/slower in maturity. (WTF)

Materials will cause temporary/permanent brain damage and loss of memory.

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_MKUltra>

~~~
JoshuaDavid
Did they find materials that cause the "victim" to age slower in maturity or
increase the efficiency of perception and processing? Because if so, those
seem unambiguously good (though the others seem pretty unambiguously bad).

~~~
Deprogrammer9
Is stunted development a good thing?

------
readme
Maybe this is why people associate bootleg alcohol with danger these days. Of
course, it doesn't surprise me they did this in the 30s. We also used to have
involuntary sterilization here.

------
ams6110
With these kinds of historical examples you sort of have to understand the
people who think that mass shootings are orchestrated by the government to
move public opinion on gun control.

------
bhups
As far as I know, they still do this in India. The ethanol that we used in my
12th grade Chemistry lab (back in 2008) was denatured with ~3% methanol.

~~~
rms
They still do this in the United States!!!! With 10% methanol!
[http://www.homedepot.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDi...](http://www.homedepot.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?productId=202249513&storeId=10051&langId=-1&catalogId=10053&cm_sp=BazVoice-
_-RLP-_-202249513-_-x#.UNk-dG_oTp4)

------
forgottenpaswrd
The law of the unintended consequences, very normal for politicians.

------
pknerd
hahahah and then world abhor Talibans. _Irony_

------
benthumb
OK, before the conspiracy theorists on this board start coming out of the
woodwork, let's try to keep this in perspective: they were drunks -- they
deserved it!

~~~
gpcz
With that callous disregard for human life, I hope you are never in a position
of power.

~~~
benthumb
Two trips to Auschwitz this year, my friend. I was responding -- in a perverse
and ironic fashion -- to this meme that I hear oft repeated that the US gov't
wouldn't conspire to kill its own people ...

~~~
neumann_alfred
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuskegee_syphilis_experiment>

40 years! I will never wrap my brain around this one. And no, I don't mean to
say "that's just as bad as the Nazis". But still. 40 years. So much for rather
hideous crap being impossible to keep secret, right? I can't help but think,
if something like this can stay secret for 40 years, real horrid geopolitical
stuff involving sending people to war based on deception, and pluging a
country into debt to fleece them, would stay secret for much longer _EZ PZ_.
Which doesn't prove anything of course, other than that "something like this
is impossible to keep secret" seems to be wishful thinking.

~~~
noibl
_While the Tuskegee experiment followed the natural progression of syphilis in
those already infected, in Guatemala [US Public Health Service] doctors
deliberately infected healthy people_ (having just defeated the Nazis).

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guatemala_syphilis_experiment>

