
Lenovo unveils new ThinkPad design - kunai
http://blog.lenovo.com/products/thinkpad-t431s-laptop-new-design
======
old-gregg
I have two nearly new Thinkpads right now and I don't need a 3rd laptop. But
with this shit hitting the market soon, I am contemplating ordering a T530 and
perhaps an x230 in top configurations and keep them in a closet for future
use.

After this pinnacle of Lenovo engineering goes on sale there won't be a single
laptop on the market worth using.

Not sure what I think of Apple right now. On one hand, they catapulted the
laptop designers around the world into producing this crap. On the other hand,
by creating the iPad they've started the process of moving consumers off
laptops into dedicated facebook terminals AKA tablets, so perhaps the high-res
IPS screens with quality keyboards+trackpads will soon be offered again for a
premium price.

I am rooting for Dell here. Now when Lenovo is gone, their Precision series is
probably the closest one to take advantage of this.

Does anyone want to apply to YC with a novel idea: _make computers for people
who make money using computers?_

~~~
yolesaber
Have you looked into System76's machines at all? Right now I am using their
Gazelle Professional model (<https://www.system76.com/laptops/model/gazp8>). I
have to say it is the best damn laptop I've ever owned and this is coming from
a long-time Thinkpad user

~~~
old-gregg
I look at them every time I'm shopping for a laptop. They never offer anything
comparable to a proper Thinkpad. The laptop you're linking to lacks nearly
everything imporant:

    
    
      * No trackpoint  
      * Touchpad buttons are in the wrong place (must be on top, under thumbs)
      * No IPS display 
      * Keyboard is crippled. Compare to a proper keyboard [1]

The #1 and #2 basicaly mean _"this laptop has no mouse"_ Apple-style touchpad
is useless for people who type a lot (you can't use them while your hands are
in FJ-position).

#3 means _"cannot work with images with more than 65K colors"_.

[1] Proper keyboard:
<http://www.notebookcheck.net/typo3temp/pics/ea701ff5cd.jpg> Things to notice:

    
    
      * Giant "Esc" key
      * Dedicated forward/backward buttons for browsing
      * Full-sized Fn keys
      * Dedicated blocks for navigation keys
      * Because it's ergonomic, it's not a dumb rectangular shape. Lenovo hates 
        this IBM design because it is more expensive to produce.
    

Also, look at how UltraNav works: you can use the mouse by keeping your hands
in a typing position (FJ). This way you can nearly instantaneously replace the
previously typed word by using the trackpoint + buttons under your thumbs.
This speeds up your typing or coding significantly. This gives Vim/Emacs users
superpowers! :) Cheap laptops force you to move your hands a lot to switch
between the mouse and keyboard.

~~~
limmeau
I always hated the forward-backward buttons. In Eclipse and VS, I kept hitting
them when reaching for Shift or Cursor, and ended up in a different file.

------
jordanb
I've been a loyal Thinkpad user for more than a decade. There are three things
that have kept me buying new thinkpads: The keyboard, the trackpoint, and the
high degree of serviceability.

I recently got a T-530 and was extremely disappointed with the changes made to
the keyboard. The chiclet change was lame, but it was something I could
ignore. The changes to the layout are a complete disaster. Important keys are
gone, and other keys are poorly positioned.

I joked that the next version thinkpad will eliminate the trackpoint and be as
non-servicable as a Macbook.

Well, it looks like I underestimated them. They didn't _eliminate_ the
trackpoint. They just took the buttons away...

My next computer won't be a thinkpad.

~~~
johnbender
I believe the trackpoint buttons are still there at the top of the trackpad.
At least that was my reading of the post:

"We unified the clickpad by integrating the trackpoint buttons into the
elegant glass touchpad..."

I sincerely hope they never discard the trackpoint, no matter how many times
The Verge laments it's "confusing" presence.

~~~
javert
_We unified the clickpad by integrating the trackpoint buttons into the
elegant glass touchpad, making it appear even larger and more streamline. The
trackpad now has five buttons which you can customize for Windows 8 gestures
via the device driver._

Hardcore long-time ThinkPad fan. This breaks the way the computer is used.

I don't even know what I'll do. The only other quality hardware maker I know
is Apple.

~~~
rplnt
There's still DELL. I was a long-ish time ThinkPad fan and when I switched to
DELL I liked it even more. Serviceability was the same, keyboard was
surprisingly better, trackpoint with buttons was there as well. It's over a
three years old model though, don't know where they moved since.

~~~
javert
I honestly though Dell sold only cheap crap to gullible consumers. "Dude,
you're getting a Dell!"

Is there some specific "line" of computers that Dell makes that are for
serious users?

~~~
rplnt
They have a "business" lines of products for notebooks, desktops, servers, ..
they even have top of the line monitors. In the case of laptops, look for
"Latitude" which is basically equivalent to Lenovo's ThinkPad.

I have E6400 and it has all the nice perks - metal-ish body so it's not
squeeky and wiggly like a plastic notebook, one screw to remove bottom (to
clean up fan, change ram, ...), one screw to change hard drive,
"multi/ultra"bay slot so you can swap the useless optical drive for battery or
hard drive, only few screws to change keyboard (so you can get an underlit
one), docking station, international next business day care (with accidental
damage) ... They just don't look so good as ThinkPad did/does. But that's a
matter of opinion of course.

I haven't seen any of their books recently but if I were to buy something new
I would definitely look into them.

------
jlgreco
I absolutely despise the removal of the trackpoint buttons. If I wanted a Mac,
_I'd buy a fucking Mac_.

Whatever happened to not alienating long time thinkpad users?

~~~
sliverstorm
_Whatever happened to not alienating long time thinkpad users?_

Presumably long time thinpad users switched to macs, is what happened.

~~~
Stratoscope
One of the things those long time ThinkPad users love about their machines is
the TrackPoint [1]. There's no TrackPoint in a Mac, so I think the steadfast
ThinkPad fans are among the last people you'd find switching to Macs.

There is a decent ThinkPad USB keyboard [2] that works with Macs; I use one
with mine. The TrackPoint response isn't as good as it is on a ThinkPad with
Windows, though. And there's no way to get a MacBook of any sort with a
TrackPoint. So I prefer using my ThinkPads except when I need to test on the
Mac.

[1] <https://www.google.com/search?q=love+trackpoint>

[2] [http://www.amazon.com/ThinkPad-USB-Keyboard-with-
TrackPoint/...](http://www.amazon.com/ThinkPad-USB-Keyboard-with-
TrackPoint/dp/B002ONCC6G)

~~~
pkamb
For what it's worth, I use one of those ThinkPad external keyboards with my
Mac. It's a great solution for those of us who can't work without TrackPoints.

------
kjhughes
See also earlier HN discussion on the new ThinkPad:

<https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5392298>

------
ChuckMcM
If Lenovo put the Chrome Pixel display on a T4xx machine I would buy one in a
femptosecond.

------
baggachipz
The laptop has only one look for Christ's sake! Blue Steel, Ferrari, Latigra?
They're the same face! Doesn't anyone notice this?! I feel like I'm taking
crazy pills.

------
ciupicri
> we want to retain the right amount of ThinkPad-ness that satisfies our loyal
> customers who’ve always valued it while modernizing ThinkPad under the
> influences of consumerization’s focus on simplicity, interoperability and
> connectedness

Why not just use/create another brand like the IdeaPad?

~~~
whichdan
Isn't that what they did with the Thinkpad Edge?

------
grannyg00se
" The trackpad now has five buttons which you can customize for Windows 8
gestures via the device driver. There are subtle red lines on the surface
indicating the trackpoint buttons. "

I'm going to keep calm and assume that these trackpad buttons work perfectly
while using the trackpoint.

At least they didn't change the key laout again. I just got used to the new
layout. It takes more effort to use though. There's a horrible wrist-crank
that goes on while trying to page down with a pinky.

Anyway, I'm hoping my next computer will be little more than a keyboard
(thinkpad travelnav) with something like a raspberry pi at the bottom and hdmi
display glasses.

------
orangethirty
That's not a Lenovo, that's a Toshiba. Great. The one computer no one had
managed to fuck up.

------
jblow
I used to buy ThinkPads all the time. But they just keep getting worse (along
with all other Windows laptops).

As for the new Thinkpad described in this article... lack of physical mouse
buttons = instant fail. This seems like a weird style-oriented consumer move,
not a business-user kind of move. I don't understand why everyone is in such a
hurry to try and copy the MacBook (badly).

At this point, availability of physical mouse buttons is very high in my list
of selling points for a laptop. I doubt I am alone.

------
Rickasaurus
I can't believe they left the pageup/pagedown right near the arrow keys. I hit
those by accident several times a day.

~~~
johnward
This is the absolute worst 'feature' on a thinkpad. When browsing those
buttons are forward/back. Other that I'm not sure why they can't get a decent
trackpad. Even though synaptics makes both the thinkpad and macbook trackpads,
the mac is far better. It must come down to software/drivers.

------
signed0
"Nothing material-wise has changed with the hinges, and we kept them visible
so you still know strong the laptop is."

Translation: "Don't pay any attention to the body that is made out of cheap
plastic, look at these shiny metal hinges!"

------
lathropd
OK... Having trouble loving this.

I'm an MBP fella but for the past few years Thinkpads have been the PCs for
which I've secretly lusted. Lenovo, becoming more Mac-ish only makes long for
you less.

Wouldn't a better monitor be a better thing than flipping the logo?

------
acturbo
Using the same ThinkPad w500 for 4+ years, running 1920 x 1200 resolution.

I'm utterly fed up with the consumerization of power notebooks at the expense
of the needs of productivity workers.

The last few years have been an outright de-evolution of screen resolutions
for laptops ... i'm still waiting for a clear upgrade path.

I'm a technology marketing specialist. I design graphics and develop software
and websites using Adobe Creative Suite, Visual Studio, and various other apps
that require lots of screen real estate. It seems like computer companies
think everyone buys notebooks to watch movies.

There are a millions of power users that require high resolution notebooks
including engineers, CAD/CAM designers, architects, graphic designers,
developers, etc. These groups form the best litmus test for determining
quality wrt high-end technology.

And these groups are being alienated by technology companies -- both software
and hardware. This includes the latest Windows 8 craptaculous dr. jekyll mr.
hyde release, along with the numerous laptop vendors all trying to shove
consumer-focused technology down the throats of power users that primarily use
technology to PRODUCE THINGS.

The most insulting and infuriating thing is that the ThinkPad brand in
particular grew famous from the loyalty of power-users like me. And instead of
listening to us and delivering products that meet and exceed our needs, Lenovo
(and other manufacturers) blindly chase after new consumer oriented customers
at our expense.

The marketing morons at these companies (i know their "work" very well) are
focused on generating growth and chasing after new markets -- at all costs.
That's fine. Create a new brand to do that.

My advise to manufacturers of high-end products for long-term success:

\- Create new brands to enter new markets

\- Deliver high-end products that meet/exceed the needs of your most demanding
customers

\- Evolve core brands CAREFULLY

\- If you don't use the product as your demanding customers do, then you don't
understand the product, so you should not make drastic decisions that affect
it

ac

------
mikeandtalisha
I can't believe they call out rotating the logo as a new feature.

~~~
r00fus
It's like they're saying "We're almost as good as Apple". Aside from the
180deg. hinge, is there any innovation that they've listed that's not an
innovation previously done by other vendors (like Apple)?

Seriously? Why parrot that you're behind the times?

~~~
4ad
The 180° is not an innovation. All ThinkPads I ever had had this feature, and
I had many ThinkPads, around 10 still in use.

------
imrehg
I really hope they will sell this with no OS. My current computer is a two-
year old X201, the only brand that sold laptops without windows, it was more
powerful and even cheaper model... I love it, and works beautifully with
ArchLinux.

Had to service twice (the monitor cable broke once because of the lots of
opening and closing, and the fan died once), and maybe will have to fix my
headphone jack, but it was always painless, free and speedy in the service
centre....

~~~
moonlimb
do you know how well other thinkpads work with ArchLinux? I'm looking into
x230, X1 carbon, and T430s

~~~
imrehg
I think they should be all fine. Here's some others' info about it, partly
from the (excellent) Arch Wiki, and from a blog:

<https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/ThinkPad_X230>
<https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Lenovo_ThinkPad_X1>
<http://blog.burntsushi.net/lenovo-thinkpad-t430-archlinux>

------
nogoodnik
I used to have a Thinkpad T61. Best laptop I ever had. When it came time to
upgrade, I looked in disbelief at the current Thinkpad line, and felt the same
emptyness in my heart as when my old HP 42S calculator died and I went to HP's
site to find what their RPN calculator line was up to these days. How sad it
is when a line of beautiful, well-engineered machines become extinct,
supplanted by mediocre, cheaper tools.

~~~
jzawodn
Same. I got a MacBook Pro.

------
dylanz
Lenovo needs to slowly remove the bizarre and seemingly random vendor/OS
specific features of their machines, and simplify (if that's an option). For
example, I know there is an Intel processor in the machine an Windows as a
default install, so please don't put hard to remove stickers on my machine.
I'm a big Lenovo fan, but they need to take a step back.

Side note, PM me if you want to buy a nearly never used maxed out X220.

~~~
Stratoscope
Funny thing about the stickers: my current two ThinkPads (W520 and X220
Tablet) had three stickers each: one was Intel, I think the other was
Microsoft, and the last one was Lenovo Enhanced Experience.

The Intel and Microsoft stickers came off easily and cleanly.

(Pro tip: Use the plastic toothpick from a Swiss Army Knife. The flat point is
just right to get under the corner of a sticker and lift it loose. Then the
rest of the sticker is easy to peel off.)

The Lenovo Enhanced Experience sticker? Quite a bit more tenacious. It was a
real pain to get it loose at all, and then it left a bunch of residue behind.
Some kind of Enhanced Experience!

I hate stickers.

------
electrotype
Am I the only one to actually prefere a big enter key (
<http://i.imgur.com/NMwiGAR.jpg> ) to a smaller one (
<http://imgur.com/G54Jua5,NMwiGAR#0> ) ?

Also, I'm one of those who want the CTRL key to be at the corner (no bios
workaround).

------
wooger
Yet again, they're pushing out 16:9 screens in a case obviously designed to
take a 16:10 display. It look ridiculous.

These are premium machines, they can clearly afford to get decent IPS displays
produced in whatever aspect ratio they choose (as both Apple and Google have
done), but they continue with this 16:9 bullshit.

I'm not fond of any current laptop hardware as they're all too compromised.

I second the sentiment that in a year or two it'll be possible to have a
simple keyboard attached to an ARM based mini computer (raspberry pi but
better), outputting to some wearable display / hooked to a monitor. This might
in fact just be a phone of course.

I'd love to be able to just carry a nice mini mechanical keyboard with me,
rather than use laptop keyboards.

------
jim_h
I think the high point of the Thinkpad line was around the T61/X61t. They were
fast, durable and had nice high resolution display.

I was desperately waiting for an update to my X61t w/ 1400x1050 display and no
such option come from them and after many years, still none! Such a
disappointment.

I saw the photos in the article and then noticed they removed the trackpad
buttons. They're moving away from why I liked them before.. that's fine, but
they're not making big enough hardware improvements to offset those changes.

~~~
ericabiz
The Thinkpad X1 Carbon is 1600x900. Surprised that is not that well-known, as
you're the second person on this thread I've noticed with that misconception.
I upgraded from my old X200s to the X1 Carbon and it's great.

~~~
krsunny
I've been wanting this model for months. How is the video performance on it?
Movies, games etc?

~~~
ericabiz
I'm going to say "fine", as I've honestly never noticed an issue at all. I
still do video editing on my desktop as it's way faster. I don't play games,
so I can't answer that one for you.

------
azatris
Not a big fan of the changes here either. However, I must note that this:

"At the same time we added a living element to it with a new LED in the logo
middle giving it a “heartbeat” of sorts. It’s functional too, showing the PC’s
status of on or in sleep."

This feature has always let me distinguish my high-end T420 from other
cheaper, worse models which have the ugly red led. With T420 I somewhat feel
like this is the last good Thinkpad of the T-series, but of course I am
biased.

------
erikpukinskis
They should've never ditched the blue enter key. Any machine with the 3-color
IBM logo and a blue enter key is gonna be the hottest machine on the block.

------
neonkiwi
I really like ThinkPads, but I think if they count rotating the logo to face
up while open as a new feature, they should also include the feature of
memorable model names. T431s? That's a SKU, not a model. Lenovo is
experimenting with it's consumer-grade IdeaPad line—there's a Yoga, for
instance—but it can still feel like a business machine with a memorable name.

~~~
javert
Disagree. What could you possibly call a computer, that's not just arbitrary
and dumb? Yoga is one of the worst names I've ever heard for a computer.

------
heifetz
people still use vga ports?

~~~
schuke
My guess is that if you're a businessman travelling around to do presentations
at different places all the time, you probably need maximum compatibility.
Sort of a differentiating factor. It also has a LAN port, of which one might
ask the same question. Just a guess though.

~~~
ciupicri
You can't compare wired Ethernet with the wireless one. The wired one is more
reliable, faster and a bit more secure.

------
johnward
I'm a macbook user and absolutely hate my thinkpad. However, I realize the
people who love the thinkpad are all about function over form. Making the
thinkpad more mac like (or consumer like or whatever) is just going to
alienate the people already buying these.

------
philwelch
I love MacBooks, but even I am a little disappointed the new ThinkPad is more
like a MacBook.

------
webwanderings
Don't know about 431 but I absolutely do not like them moving the keys around
in 420. The PrntScrn is no longer where it used to be. The Home, End, PgUp,
Down keys are all at different places.

~~~
acabal
This drives me mad. At least Lenovo kept the buttons. Other laptops like Apple
and now Dell have dropped them entirely. And for what? "Minimalism" or
"elegance" I guess. I'm going to have to hang on to my aging Dell for as long
as I can, just for the keyboard :(

~~~
4ad
But it didn't even keep the buttons.

------
kh_hk
I am happy with my X60, but just in case I might fancy an upgrade, which is
the last model worth of it?

Maybe the X230 but the screen frame still looks too big / noticeable.

------
Aloha
I may order one when its refresh time. If I dont like it, I know I like the
MBP with Retina, I do however like the touch point more than a trackpad.

------
jim_h
I have the Thinkpad X22, X40, T40, T60p, X61t. After the X61t, I saw nothing
remotely compelling from their Thinkpad line.

------
qompiler
I had to laugh out loud because it still looks the same. Or was that the joke?

------
piyush_soni
That ugly trackpoint (that red dot in the middle of keyboard) and that
extremely irritating swapped position of Fn and Ctrl keys are the two things
that keep me away from this otherwise excellent laptop. (Though the Fn and
Ctrl keys can now be swapped from BIOS, but _why_? )

~~~
grannyg00se
Ugly trackpoint? Are you trolling? Trackpoint is one of the most significant
reasons people buy a thinkpad over any other trackpad only laptop.

I've heard the ctrl and fn placement is an issue for many people, but I don't
understand why you'd want the more frequently used key further away than a
hardly ever used key. Or maybe people actually use fn more often than ctrl?
That doesn't seem likely.

~~~
MBlume
Don't think further away. Think _corners_. Corners are easy to hit, you know
where they are. Second from the corner requires more effort. Same reasoning as
"hot corners" in operating systems.

~~~
grannyg00se
I can understand that. I guess I've gotten used to the close pinky curl-under
that hits Ctrl just right.

------
mattdennewitz
this is very, very nice, but centering the trackpad to have to align with the
trackpoint feels like an awkward mistake

~~~
Stratoscope
What makes it an awkward mistake? Doesn't look as balanced and centered?

It seems kind of essential if they're using the touchpad top edge as a
replacement for the TrackPoint buttons.

------
drivebyacct2
And yet the 13" screen on the 11" body (tiny bezel) Dell XPS still has a high
_er_ -res screen than this 14" screen. WAKE UP LENOVO, I really wanted to have
a hard decision when choosing to replace my Macbook Air, but I guess the XPS
13 is an easy choice. Your X1 Carbon is equally gorgeous with an equally
crappy screen.

Now if only any store anywhere carried the Chromebook Pixel so I could check
it out...

edit: After more reading, rumor has it of a retina MBA 2013. Maybe I'll wait
it out.

~~~
ericabiz
"Your X1 Carbon is equally gorgeous with an equally crappy screen."

I believe you have incorrect information. I own a Thinkpad X1 Carbon. Its
screen resolution is 1600x900, which is not only higher than the typical
1366x768 resolution found on most laptops, but it's a nice resolution that
doesn't require switching into and out of "retina" mode.

I'm quite happy with my X1 Carbon, FWIW. My favorite feature is the rapid
charge, which charges your laptop to 80% battery in 30 minutes or less. This
is a laptop where it's actually worth hauling out the AC adapter when you have
10 minutes before you board your next flight. Very awesome feature.

~~~
drivebyacct2
>It's a nice resolution that doesn't require switching into and out of
"retina" mode.

I use an OS that fortunately isn't encumbered with those problems. I use a
2560x1440 monitor, a 2560x1440 tablet, and a 720p phone, the fact that a 14"
screen is inferior to all of those is embarrassing. It does make a difference,
especially when I'm considering switching from my MBA (which already has a
higher density than the X1 in question) to an XPS 13 that has a full HD
(1080p) display.

I can assure you, I would love more than anything else to buy the Touchpad X1.
I don't like Dell's quality or customer service. The EFI implementation on
Macs is piss-poor and their firmware doesn't support USB3 (you have to boot OS
X/Ubuntu and have the drivers kick in). My first "real" laptop was a Thinkpad
before they stopped making Thinkpads. But frankly, the screen is a deal break.
The screen on my T61P was the worst screen I've ever owned, and I'm not buying
another until it's competitive with the equivalent competition.

I'm sadly well aware that many other laptop manufacturers skimp on displays,
but both Acer and ASUS offer full HD laptops that are in the same
spec/dimension/price range.

~~~
backprojection
I completely agree with your sentiment. My impression is they're releasing
more models, redesigned like this, in the near future; we can only hope
they'll have a high-res option.

I really don't mind paying $200 extra for a great screen.

> 2560x1440 tablet

If that's the nexus 10 you're referring to, it's actually 2560×1600 :)

