
At 16, Ganesh got a job in Qatar. Two months later he was dead - anu_gupta
http://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2013/sep/25/qatar-nepalese-workers-poverty-camps
======
joonix
See my post in the other thread about living in Qatar.

The exit visa is a system that legally enables indentured servitude. Any
country that has this system (pretty much just Islamic mideast countries)
should be shunned by the US and the UN (won't happen of course given the US
has a couple of bases in Qatar and BP has a huge investment there).

~~~
vacri
Given that the terms change from what the worker originally agreed to - for
example, a lot of these work camps don't bother paying the workers, and
freedom to roam is curtailed - it's more analagous to slavery than indentured
servitude.

~~~
camus
It is legalized slavery. These middle eastern countries are well known for
that. That's why they are recruiting the poorest of the poor from rural areas
in Asia.

Foreign workers have 0 rights there. But hey these guys are US allies,the
leader of democracy and the free world... they cant be bad , can they ...

~~~
waps
Not the middle eastern countries. This is part of their legal system, which is
called "islam", or "sharia" (translation: the right way for a muslim).

Slavery (if you define it as forced labour without compensation), in case
anyone doesn't know, is part of every religion. It is even part of
Christianity, but Canon law specifies that it is a Christian's duty to,
firstly, never own slaves themselves (with serious punishments for
violations), secondly, to work to exterminate slavery around them (e.g.
purchasing slaves then freeing them).

Little known fact, that second law is what lead to the introduction of hindu
numerals in the west (Venetian merchants would purchase slaves, then free them
after one voyage, in Venice. On of these joined a monastery, and taught the
other monks (many things, mostly historical data, actually), on of whom wrote
the Codex Vigilianus, which lead to the pope starting to use the numbers,
which lead to ...)

Islam encourages freeing slaves, but only in one circumstance : after they
have completed a successful military campaign, to celebrate (and it's
perfectly OK, to re-capture the freed slaves and force them to fight again
later. In fact the prophet did this). Note that islam is also unique in that
it actually says that it's OK for owners to just kill slaves (whereas in other
law systems there has to be a reason. Like, say you can kill slaves for
running away. Islam and specifically the second Caliphate is the only state in
history that has a documented history of killing slaves for fun).

So I'm wondering what the attitude is on this. If you seriously defend this
point, you're effectively against every religion except Western-brand atheism
(ie. not the -much more successful- socialist version of atheism), and
Christianity.

Let me just leave you with a quote from Winston Churchill "A degraded
sensualism deprives this life of its grace and refinement, the next of its
dignity and sanctity. The fact that in Mohammedan law every woman must belong
to some man as his absolute property, either as a child, a wife, or a
concubine, must delay the final extinction of slavery until the faith of Islam
has ceased to be a great power among men. " (Mohammedanism is the historical
name for Islam)

And do not take this as dissing islam, in fact pretty much every religion has
slavery (in the sense of zero-compensation forced labour). "The west" is
unique in opposing slavery and is still the only driving force behind the
extermination of slavery, half-heartedly sort-of kind-of joined by India (the
difference is that the west actually imposes trade sanctions against slavery-
using states for using slavery whereas India refuses to do that. Within India,
they're doing a good job fighting slavery though).

As the article illustrates, the western fight against slavery has actually
lost terrain in the last 2 decades. Mostly because islam-based law systems are
pushing for re-introduction of slavery (in Saharan Africa, Sudan, Mali, the
worst can be found. But it also happens in the Middle East and Asia). Today
the situation is that Islam is regressing, and slavery is one of the
consequences of that.

Frankly I hope that a few states experience a few slave revolts. If Saudi
Arabia were to be destroyed by it's (large majority) of almost-slaves, for
example, that would do a LOT to eliminate slavery. Of course, like Holland
before it, America is mostly on the side of the slavers in the name of
stability.

~~~
kamaal
>>This is part of their legal system, which is called "islam", or "sharia"

This has nothing to do with Islam. This is all about money and a few rich
idiots abusing their power.

Bulk of the practices you associate with any religion, are not that of a
religion but that of the local civilization at that point of time.

Your post resembles the attitude of the western masses today, which is to hold
the perception created by media and politicians as a fact. Islam is followed
by more than 1/3rd of the world today, no one wakes up with knives searching
for slaves to kill. These people are ordinary people just like any other
people in the west who go out and make a living, in the hopes of a good life
for themselves and their family.

And they have their local culture which dominates bulk of their lifestyle.

Secondly you quote Winston Churchill, This is heights of hypocrisy. The man
has made extreme racial remarks. For eg from :
[http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Winston_Churchill](http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Winston_Churchill)

>>I do not agree that the dog in a manger has the final right to the manger
even though he may have lain there for a very long time. I do not admit that
right. _I do not admit for instance, that a great wrong has been done to the
Red Indians of America or the black people of Australia. I do not admit that a
wrong has been done to these people by the fact that a stronger race, a
higher-grade race, a more worldly wise race to put it that way, has come in
and taken their place._

Basically he is saying, anything that what the so called self proclaimed
'stronger' or 'higher-grade' race does is right.

This is the exact same attitude these rich guys in Qatar show today. Something
tells me they are both just the same. Regardless of the religion.

People like these should think about their own morals before talking about
somebody else's.

~~~
waps
I don't understand. What exactly are you saying is not true : 1) islam is a
system of laws

2) those laws include slavery

3) people who are fighting to introduce those laws to society are
reintroducing legal slavery

4) the muslim world is the major hotbet of slavery

Copious evidence for all claims is easy to come by. Start with :
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_views_on_slavery](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_views_on_slavery)
And if you want to hear it from an imam: [http://www.islam-
qa.com/en/94840](http://www.islam-qa.com/en/94840) (note that many of the
"advantages" slaves had are the exact same as they had in the Roman Empire. An
owner, for example, would generally treat his own educated slaves better than
fellow free men)

If you want to be completely horrified by this site, just read the category
[http://www.islam-qa.com/en/cat/362](http://www.islam-qa.com/en/cat/362)

Some examples, and the TLDR

"Islam and slavery" (TLDR: taking slaves is allowed "in war" and buying them
and kidnapping them. There are lots of rules about slaves)

"Intercourse with female prisoners of war." (TLDR: allowed for men)

"What is the ruling on intimacy with slave women?" (TLDR: allowed for men)

"Intercourse with a slave woman is not regarded as zina (adultery)" (TLDR:
true, provided certain conditions are met. Also: A muslim man fucking a non-
muslim woman is perfectly OK if not done in an islamic country, because any
muslim is at war with everyone outside of muslim countries) (note how he
squirms to avoid saying what the ruling is on muslims living in non-muslim
nations. Why ? Because that's punishable by death, except for soldiers and
-maybe- ambassadors. Where do you live ?) ...

Your "evidence" that this is not true, is, as I read it :

a) 1/3rd of the world follows islam (in reality, it's probably between 1/5th
and 1/6th)

b) "no-one wakes with knives searching for slaves to kill" (that's not
allowed, btw, you have to buy them first)

c) Winston Churchill is a hypocrit with often similar socialist eugenic
standpoints as the people he fought -> not a surprise to anyone who knows a
smitten of history. Nobody denies he was a keen observer and a very effective
leader either.

~~~
flumbaps
Islam isn't a system of laws, it's a religion. Like all organised religions,
what's written in its holy books is of far less practical importance than what
is preached by its leaders. Adherents don't read and figure out for
themselves, they follow what they are told the books say. Like most religious
leaders, the Islamic holy men tend to preach what is convenient to them. The
fact that the religion is Islam isn't of particular note. It wasn't so long
ago that American Christian leaders preached that God condoned slavery. You
might explain this by talking about different branches of Christianity, and
likewise there are different interpretations of Islam too. But really, I think
that unless a religion actively encourages a practical pursuit of self-
enlightenment (e.g. Buddhism, Taoism, spiritual Yoga), then it is nothing more
than a system of control. Ultimately the important thing is how corrupt the
leaders are.

Think of it this way, if there were no courts and no defence lawyers and no-
one ever bothered to read the legal statutes for themselves, then would the
actual text of the law mean anything? Or wouldn't it rather be that, in
application, the law would tend serve the interests of the police?

~~~
Mikeb85
Islam absolutely contains a set of laws. For the Muslim, you cannot have the
religion without the law. Even in countries where Islam is the minority,
disputes between Muslims are settled by a community Islamic court...

~~~
flumbaps
Please read again. I have not denied that Islam contains a set of laws. I said
that Islam is not exactly equal to a set of laws. Which is correct.

I've also stated that, in practical terms, it is the behaviour and beliefs of
the religious leaders that matter more that the laws themselves. The community
Islamic courts you cite are a perfect example of this. You seem to expect them
to behave according to some monolithic interpretation of Sharia law. Whereas,
in reality, these courts are run by the Islamic community and are presided
over by local religious leaders who make decisions (and interpret the laws)
according to their own beliefs, informed by their own prejudices and self
interests.

If you have any doubt that this is true, then simply consider that there are
moderate Muslims in the world, and there are Muslims that believe God wants
them to commit murder. Do you think it is a coincidence that those who see the
West as the devil come from countries where the West has severely harmed in
the past through selfish and corrupt interference? Do you think it is by
chance that within the West and within countries allied with the West, we find
more moderate viewpoints?

Religious rhetoric aligns itself with realpolitik. It is naive to see it in
any other terms.

~~~
waps
1) many muslims disagree that there is a difference between islam and sharia.
The word itself disagrees with your assessment. Besides, ever met a muslim
that didn't care what halal was ? Ever wondered what "halal" refers to. These
people that call themselves muslim use the sources I referred to as guidance
on what is halal, they do _not_ decide for themselves.

2) slavery, incuding kidnapping people, even children into slavery is halal.
So is raping them. Yes there's limits to exactly who, when and where, but
frankly that doesn't matter to the morality of that. Halal = morally
reprehensible.

3) Even seemingly stupid parts of the islamic faith, like halal food
(practiced by the vast majority of muslims), you're going to find
discriminatory/racist at best (religious discrimination in employment, to
start with). Even that part is morally reprehensible.

4) I disagree strongly with your assessment that "those who see the West as
the devil come from countries where the West has severely harmed in the past
through selfish and corrupt interference". Aside from the fact that that
statement reads like a conspiracy theory, those hotbeds you refer to are Saudi
Arabia, Somalia and Pakistan. In a different way Egypt has been a hotbed. You
_might_ be able to build a weak case America has harmed Somalia, but the
others have massively benefited from America's influence and help.

I propose instead that those who see the west as the devil come from societies
(or at least families) that take islam very seriously and let it guide their
life. The stronger the place of islam in their lives, the more hate for
everyone they have (not just for America, in case you truly are that naive.
Israel, Holland (because there is a whore at every intersection, one Egyptian
explained to me not very long ago), France (something about a Jewish school
that you just can't repeat, and the "fact" that they support ex-muslims in
Lebanon), Ethiopia, Kenia, ...).

> Religious rhetoric aligns itself with realpolitik. It is naive to see it in
> any other terms.

 _Everything_ , including your rhetoric, aligns itself with realpolitik.
That's the definition of realpolitik. Your statement is true, but it contains
no information, other than what's in the dictionary. Barbie dolls align
themselves with realpolitik too, and it is equally naive to see things
otherwise.

~~~
swalkergibson
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bigotry](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bigotry)

You are a bigot.

~~~
bukkake
I disagree. I think his comments are well-researched, insightful, and
logically driven. That his conclusion does not jibe with your particular
worldview does not make him a bigot.

------
aptwebapps
From another article on the topic by The Guardian [1]

 _The British engineering company Halcrow, part of the CH2M Hill group, is a
lead consultant on the Lusail project responsible for "infrastructure design
and construction supervision". CH2M Hill was recently appointed the official
programme management consultant to the supreme committee. It says it has a
"zero tolerance policy for the use of forced labour and other human
trafficking practices".

Halcrow said: "Our supervision role of specific construction packages ensures
adherence to site contract regulation for health, safety and environment. The
terms of employment of a contractor's labour force is not under our direct
purview."_

So they've got a zero tolerance policy, unless you're talking about the
actions of their contractors which is just, like, totally out of their
control, man.

1\. [http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/sep/25/revealed-
qatars...](http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/sep/25/revealed-qatars-world-
cup-slaves?CMP=twt_gu)

------
dm8
On a side note, is there anyway we can donate money to his family. ~ $1500
with 36% interest is lot of money for his poor Nepalese family and I doubt
they will be able to repay that debt. I guess they will have to work rest of
their life just to repay money.

I'd be up for donating some money to their family. How do I do it?

~~~
mcv
I'm really hoping they don't have to repay that debt. If it's illegal
according to Nepalese law, then surely nobody can force them to pay up?

If they will be forced to pay, that makes an already terrible and inhuman
situation even worse.

------
dm8
Lot of Indians also work in these countries due to poverty reasons. I feel
privileged to be born in a relatively wealthy and educated family in India. If
it was not the case may be I would have one of the migrant workers like them.

If these countries have oil money in abundance then why don't they give good
working conditions and pay more money. Few million dollars will hardly going
to move needle for them. I smell corruption.

~~~
ameen
Corruption by the middle-men, the worst part is fellow Indians/Nepalis run
such recruitment rackets and fake certificates and stuff.

Even if those countries wanted to do better, these middle-men would gobble up
the benefits and pass the hardwork to uneducated/naive migrant workers.

~~~
cabalamat
> uneducated/naive migrant workers

I suspect that, due to the internet, prospective migrant works are a good deal
less naive than they used to be. Which makes me wonder if Nepalese will still
be prepared to work there in future.

~~~
dm8
They are well aware of working conditions. I'm sure some migrant workers might
be returning to Nepal and this type of information spreads quickly within
rural communities. And Nepalese people will still work for them. Poverty makes
people do all sorts of things. And that includes taking risks with your own
life.

------
mmariani
""" ...Nepalese men and women leave their towns and villages for jobs
overseas. More than 100,000 head to Qatar, where a booming construction
industry and insatiable appetite for cheap labour has been fuelled by its
successful bid to host the 2022 World Cup... """

Just like Rome's slaves built the Colosseum so that the upper classes could
keep the masses entertained to keep exploiting them.

We really have not learned shit in the past couple thousand years.

~~~
kubiiii
The difference here is that the stadiums will likely stay empty during the
world cup. They are litterally doing that for nothing.

------
dajohnson89
Why is this not front-page news of mainstream media? (I know why, it's because
it's not profitable). But where is the outrage? Why is fighting back
restricted to a few NGOs and some back office of the Nepalese government?

~~~
waps
Because it would bring uncomfortable questions about the list of states that
employ slavery, or effective slavery :

Sudan, Mali, Niger, Chad, Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Kuwait, Pakistan, Bangladesh.

Hmmm I wonder what is driving the advancement of slavery, given that's the
places where it's happening. An exploration of slavery would bring the very
uncomfortable, but pretty well known, fact to the surface that slavery is part
of a particular religion. And the fact that if that religion entrenches itself
in a society, it has a very strong tendency to bring slavery back.

(Fun fact : know what the arabic word for slave is ? "Abed". Literally it
means "black". "Black gold", when it was a popular term in the 19th and 20th
centuries, referred to slaves, not oil.

~~~
runehol
Others have discussed the slavery claims, I'll address the linguistic claims.

The three-letter root عبد, transliterated "3abd", or more inaccurately,
"Abed", has meanings related to servant and slaves. It does not mean black.
This can be seen in this entry of the Hans Wehr dictionary -
[http://tinyurl.com/pk2alcu](http://tinyurl.com/pk2alcu) . You might be
familiar with this root from the Arabic male name Abdallah or 3abdallah - this
literally means "Servant of God".

Side note - I'm using the letter 3 to indicate the
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ayin](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ayin) letter,
which is a throaty consonant in Arabic that is hard for Westerners to
pronounce and hear. Because of this, it is sometimes sliced off and ignored
when Arabic words are transliterated to the Latin alphabet. However, making
claims about the Arabic language while ignoring it is a bit like making claims
about the etymology of English words while ignoring the difference between l
and r - it can lead you seriously astray.

The color black is أسود / aswad (masculine) or سوداء / sauda2 (feminine) in
Arabic, all derived from the three-letter root سود (s-u-d). Dictionary entry
at [http://tinyurl.com/q7cadg4](http://tinyurl.com/q7cadg4) . You may
recognize this root from the country سودان / Sudan. However, it should not be
confused with Saudi Arabia, which is سعودية or sa3udia. Again, the Ayin is
present in the word and gives it a very different meaning.

In general, Arabic has a number of consonants that are hard to distinguish for
Westerners - this includes the Ayin, the gh (guttural r), the difference
between aspirated and non-aspirated h, the difference between emphatic and
non-emphatic t, s, d and dh. This means it is hard to represent Arabic
accurately with the Latin alphabet without extending it in ways unfamiliar to
regular readers. I tend to trust claims about Arabic if the Arabic alphabet is
used to explain them, otherwise I would be fairly skeptical.

~~~
waps
Your reply is technically correct, and yet also entirely false. It's of course
true that the color is aswad. I was not talking about the color black being
abd. It's just that in English people use the same word for black (the color)
and black (the skin).

If it makes things more clear, abed means n-gger. Literally and figuratively.

------
ballard
This story make me sad for the human species, it sounds criminal.

On the upside, with tech of course:

Is there any existing app for labor conditions reporting?

If potential employees had a slight opportunity to easily research conditions,
they might choose another company with a better record. This would have the
potential to drive disreputable shops out of business and promote those that
care a bit more about basic human rights. It would be a daunting education and
development task, but one that would be meaningful.

~~~
sokoloff
This is an environment where people borrow $1000 at 36% interest to get placed
in a job overseas.

In such an environment, I don't know there's a lot of practical room for,
"Nah, I don't want that one; what else you got?!"

~~~
ballard
Predatory lending on top of indentured servitude: dual slavery of the body and
poverty.

I'm sure there are much worse and much better companies than what is reported
regarding un/semi-skilled labor workforce vendors. The former should not be
allowed to survive.

Would be a cool project if someone went undercover themselves to make a docu
on the living and work conditions of these industrial sites to expose this
further.

------
ppradhan
I am from Nepal. This happens because of poverty and people need to make a
living. Awareness is high among migrant workers about the conditions - given
hundreds of thousands travel each year and news travels back. But hope of
200-500 USD per month makes people take risks and the exodus continues.

Once there, dodgy contractors and employment agents take advantage when they
can. The exit visa system really doesn't help either. Neither do unstable
government, weak economy and low employment back home.

It is an actual fact that in desperation, the poor migrant workers are made to
work long hours in extreme heat (direct sunlight). At nighttime, close to the
desert where many of these fetid labour quarters are get suddenly cold.
Extreme variations in temperature and strenuous manual work is said to have
contributed to all these heart attack deaths in young people - as young as 20.
I'm not sure exactly because I'm not a medical professional - but the
conditions are definitely not conducive to human survival.

The way international community has taken notice with this article does help.
Business communities and political interests might do their best to keep the
blatant human/labour rights violation under wraps but spreading the news will
make their task harder. People from countries with vested economic stakes in
these gulf countries etc could do well to pressurise their governments to
demand accountability. Work is what the workers want - but in humane
conditions. Death should not be an acceptable condition of employment.

------
abup
I am from Nepal. The irony in all this is that we Nepalese will keep flying
the Qatar Airways. The Nepalese airlines, a state-owned corporation, used to
have regular flights to many busy destinations like Frankfurt. But like with
everything that has happened in Nepal for the last 10-15 years, this has gone
downhill.

Qatar bribed many Football Associations in FIFA to get this world cup bid. One
of them was Nepal. The Nepalese FA's president is in good terms with the
Qatari FA, and was apparently given nice kickbacks for voting in their favor.

------
netcan
This situation seems like an embodiment of several bad things that can be
found everywhere, but all taken to the extreme. They add up to a slavery
system.

First of all, I think that slavery is a relative concept. The modern
comparison archetype that most people know the most about is the American
system of race based chattel slavery. But, there have been many many different
systems all throughout history. All different. Slavery is something that
exists on a difficult to define continuum.

Many (most?) countries have laws for emoting foreigners. They usually have
more limited rights compared to citizens. Deportation looms. Residency is tied
to employment. The country is not run _for them._ When it's a Belgian
professor teaching in Russia, it obviously isn't slavery. When it's this poor
Nepali man in Qatar isn't. There just isn't a clear line between the two.
Contracts? Consent? What do those mean when you have the power differences
between a Qatari Sheik and an illiterate.

Qatar is comparable in a lot of ways to ancient slave states. There are a
small minority (2-5% depending on how you define it) of extremely privileged
aristocracy, members of important families. Another 10% of Qatari citizens who
make up most of the the professional class. The foreign professional class
(10-15%) of mostly arabs and whites. They have fewer rights, but are
materially well off. Then a vast underclass (50-60%) of poor foreigners with
no rights and practical situations ranging from bad to awful. Work to death
conditions. Sexual assault. Chattel-like system of employer-employee
relations. Probably similar distributions to famous slave states like Sparta.

------
projectramo
Slavery in Qatar has nothing to do with religion.

This is the equivalent of taking some example of modern day slavery (say the
20 million alleged
[http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/06/19/19042103-modern-d...](http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/06/19/19042103-modern-
day-slavery-state-dept-says-millions-of-human-trafficking-victims-go-
unidentified?lite)) and then saying this is part of US history.

Saying slavery is inherently Islamic is like saying slavery is inherently
American. And then for proof, going over centuries of quotes about slaves,
beatings of slaves, violence during desegregation and the whole entire ugly
history of race relations.

Anyone remotely well read knows this is absurd. That what is happening is a
matter of individual greed and not some systemic mind control.

~~~
dvmmh
"That what is happening is a matter of individual greed and not some systemic
mind control."

No. The fact that the local populace doesn't care at all and encourages it,
means that it is a HUGELY systemic problem.

------
known
Sounds like
[http://india.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/12/17/indias-200-million...](http://india.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/12/17/indias-200-million-
strong-dalit-community-faces-discrimination-every-da/)

------
neel980
Seems to be the case across the surrounding region

[http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/commentators/johann-
hari...](http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/commentators/johann-hari/the-
dark-side-of-dubai-1664368.html)

------
anigbrowl
This is heartbreaking, but I'm having a hard time seeing the HN angle, except
that there was another thread on the same subject earlier today. I suggest
this is more suitable fare for Reddit.

~~~
DanBC
While I say that anything can fit on HN I have a hard time with articles like
this, because the threads are usually full of hateful idiots bickering about
things they have little knowledge of.

What have I learnt from the comments to this submission?

------
bradleysmith
Seems a dead horse at this point, but this was common-place in Saudi Arabia
where I grew up. Migrant workers from Nepal, Bangladesh, Pakistan, Sri Lanka,
the Phillipines (from memory) and elsewhere were notoriously mistreated.

My mother worked at a TV & Radio broadcast station for a (...the) major oil
company there (side job, father was in oil @ same company), and found out the
janitorial staff in her building were going both unpaid and unfed during their
workdays for months at a time. I remember helping her with food-drives to pull
food from expat communities for them.

It was well known to expat kids running around on-compound that 'gardeners'
(generally bangladeshi and nepalese) were absolutely second-class citizens.
These people were absolutely degraded at the hands of Saudi nationals and
expats of a variety of ethnicities and nationalities (yes, westerners too).
I've seen them yelled & cursed at, spit on, and beaten by company Security
officers (generally al-Dossari Saudi's, but not always). The horror stories
are literally countless.

There seems to have been a lot of discussion in this thread as to the effect
that religion has played as a cause of this treatment of migrant workers. I DO
NOT know (nor believe) that Islam has a direct role to play, but I can say
confidently that this is a reflection of culture. There is a general
acceptance of inherent difference in levels of humanity that is tied to
national (and tribal) identities in many Middle Eastern countries. I would
wager that the majority of the population (at the time I was living there,
demographics change fast, and there are a boatload of young people in KSA)
would tell you that a Sri Lanken / Bangladeshi / Pakistani != a Brit /
American / Frenchmen, etc., and not feel that bad about it.

As I observed it, some of these people believed this as coldly as it is stated
above, while a great many see it as a fact the whole world thinks this, but
their culture/mindset is 'realistic' ( _shudders_ ) or honest enough to admit
it.

I DO NOT believe this is simply a 'rich taking advantage of poor' scenario. In
my experience, these people are mistreated far worse than necessary for
profit, or probably quite often to the detriment of it. I think it has more to
do with cultural definitions of identity than anything else.

------
projectramo
We have to end this now:
[http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/06/19/19042103-modern-d...](http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/06/19/19042103-modern-
day-slavery-state-dept-says-millions-of-human-trafficking-victims-go-
unidentified?lite)

------
bsullivan01
If CIA wanted Qatar's Royal family gone, they'd ship 50,000 AKs, pick a few
leaders from each ethnic group and Viva La Revolucion! Couldn't happen to a
nicer bunch of folks

~~~
DominikR
The moment these middle eastern countries (Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Yemen) are not
useful to Western foreign policy anymore and therefore lose our support, they
will probably disintegrate.

You've got citizens that are a minority in their own country, and that are
largely incompetent and incapable of running anything, because they never had
to do any work.

And then you have a majority of foreign workers that are largely treated like
slaves, and probably not happy with that situation.

I can't see who would support those regimes if they get into troubles

Europe certainly wouldn't, politicians here already call those countries
dictatorships (publicly) and noone want's to have any affiliation with them.

Russia and China both already had their experiences with terrorism sponsored
by those regimes, so I wouldn't expect any support from them either.

I think that particularly Saudi Arabia already sees the writings on the wall
and they are actively taking measures but it will be too late, too little.

------
enupten
Yes, this is awful, but what more can you expect from the Middle East? On a
more political note, did Al Jazeera, report on this ?

~~~
zizee
You should not paint all countries in the Middle East with the same brush.

~~~
CervezaPorFavor
I've only been to a few countries in the Middle East, so I can't generalise.
But one thing common among these countries is the lack of warmth, sincerity
and humility among the locals. It is one of the most unpleasant and hostile
cultures that I have encountered in my years of travel.

They treat blue-collar foreigners as lesser humans.

EDIT: To clarify, I've only been to Qatar, UAE and Bahrain.

~~~
Tzunamitom
What a load of crap. So you saw the airport in Qatar, stayed in a 5-Star hotel
in the UAE and caught a connection at Bahrain without ever actually speaking
to a local??? I can tell you from my experience of living in the UAE for 3
years and regularly travelling to Saudi overland via Bahrain, the locals are
just like people anywhere in the world - some crappy, most decent, and some
really nice. Minor differences include the fact that they are generally more
spoilt, and much more hospitable than people in the west. Most that I've
spoken to care about the worker conditions, and would hate to see people hurt,
though they worry about being a minority in their own countries, they find it
hard to say no to the comfortable lure if unbridled capitalism and its shiny
things.

How many of you have actually been to labour camps? I've been to a couple - I
drove on (hardly a "prison") and was invited into the home of a worker, who
bought me a juice. There were 6 guys living in a small space (about 10 feet by
20 feet), and they had a rota system for sleeping space. The place was clean
and they had somehow managed to afford satellite TV.

Maybe don't be so quick to generalise next time?

~~~
CervezaPorFavor
I worked on various projects in the region for more than a year. That has been
my experience. I'm not white, if that matters.

------
camus
There will be no justice for that kid. Nobody will be held accountable.

------
nikatwork
Any free market advocates or Randians care to try and fit this terrible
situation into their worldview?

~~~
jrmurad
| Any free market advocates or Randians care to try and fit this terrible
situation into their worldview?

Except anarchists, I think "Randians" and most "free market advocates" are in
favor of court (government) enforcement of contracts.

> He was 16

There's a concept of "age of consent" or "capacity" to contract.

> arranging a fake passport stating he was 20

Fraud.

> wages retained

Who would sign a contract like this? It's most likely a violation.

> deprived of the ID cards they need to move around freely without fear of
> arrest

Seems like a failure of the State, to be arresting people who are allowed to
be there.

> demand their wages, a drastic step given that the authorities can simply
> expel them to penury

If "the authorities" refers to the State, I'd say it's another failure of
government, not the free market.

> refusing to issue the exit permits they needed to return home

Yet another failure of the State, if I'm reading that correctly as a
restriction of the freedom of movement: a basic human right which brutal,
anti-capitalist regimes are infamous for violating (e.g. Berlin Wall).
Historically, people tend to flee from less free (market) countries to more
free (market) countries.

> the kafala system binds the worker to a single employer

Is "kafala" a system of laws? This sounds like Directive 10-289 which Ayn Rand
rails against in Atlas Shrugged: "All workers, wage earners, and employees of
any kind whatsoever shall henceforth be attached to their jobs and shall not
leave nor be dismissed nor change employment"

~~~
vacri
It's a good thing it's illegal, that way these people can fight it in the
courts with all the access to legal assistance they have.

One of the biggest drawbacks to the libertarian 'fight-it-out-in-court'
mindset is that it considers everyone to be equal, but only if they can afford
a lawyer. The people that libertarianism fails the most are the people we're
talking about right now.

~~~
Tzunamitom
Forget affording a lawyer, they can't even read the contracts that they sign
in the first place as they don't read Arabic. Hell some don't even read or
write, and have to put an 'X' where their signature should be. Even if they
could read it they'd sign anyway, because shit what choice do they have when
the family needs feeding? We're talking about asymmetry the like of which
people in the developed world cannot begin to comprehend, and that is the
reason that unrestrained free markets can never operate effectively.

