
Hong Kong Police Fire Tear Gas, Rubber Bullets at Protesters - JumpCrisscross
https://www.wsj.com/articles/hong-kong-protest-debate-postponed-on-extradition-bill-as-crowds-swell-in-opposition-11560309637
======
SCAQTony
For the Hong Kong protesters to be successful perhaps they have to "export"
their values and demands to be applicable for the rest of China rather than
their microcosm. I suspect Guangzhou, Shenzen, Dongguan may have no sympathy
for those in Hong Kong who have more rights and a better standard of living
than they do.

~~~
chvid
I think you touch on something very relevant. I have been there quite a few
times and I like it there but many Chinese see Hong Kong people as spoiled and
snobbish. Back when China took over Hong Kong, Hong Kong was something
special. Today many mainland Chinese cities are just as wealthy and almost as
international as Hong Kong; yet Hong Kong clings on to its special status.

Why are these people not fighting for better rule of law in all of China?
Where is the solidarity?

~~~
khuey
Many cities on the Chinese mainland are nearly as wealthy as Hong Kong but
none of them are remotely as "international".

And asking "why are [Hong Kongers] not fighting for better rule of law in all
of China? Where is the solidarity?" either betrays a serious lack of
understanding of how the Chinese political system works or is a question asked
in bad faith.

~~~
chvid
How do you think your average Chinese in the neighbouring regions perceive
these protest? Do you think they are sympathetic to your cause?

~~~
spacehunt
We have no idea of knowing, but from what I've heard, they are simply not
aware. Almost anything with the phrase "Hong Kong" was censored inside
mainland China today.

~~~
yorwba
It's not too hard to find something on Weibo, e.g. this post in support of the
police [1] where the highest-upvoted comment at 281 votes condemns the police
violence [2].

[1]
[https://m.weibo.cn/detail/4382509644815287](https://m.weibo.cn/detail/4382509644815287)
面对困难，香港警察从不畏惧，坚决捍卫法律尊严！@香港警察

[2] 拿枪射无辜民众及记者，一群警察围殴女孩，拿胡椒喷雾射向老人及外国游客，这样就是维护法治吗

~~~
spacehunt
The replies to [2] however, show that nobody believed what she claimed.

~~~
yorwba
Huh? That not everyone agrees doesn't mean nobody believed her. The highest-
voted reply complains about censorship. The second-highest talks about the
police acting in self-defense. The third-highest fantasizes about shooting ...
someone (I initially interpreted it to mean the police, but maybe they
actually want to shoot the protesters?)

~~~
spacehunt
No, the third one says, if the police really could shoot, why did so many
other events [that she mentioned] also happen?

Implying that she lied.

~~~
yorwba
Makes sense, thanks. I still frequently misread Chinese texts that appear
completely obvious with hindsight.

------
zeristor
Since this has been declared a riot, and that a riot is punishable with up to
10 years in prison, and the legislation their protesting about is about
extraditing people with more than a seven year sentence...

It’s coming to the point where they’ve got nothing to lose.

~~~
zeristor
How is this being reported in mainland China?

If it starts to spark copycat riots there things could escalate.

~~~
larrysalibra
This is how it's being reported if it's reported at all:
[http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/hkedition/2019-06/10/content_37...](http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/hkedition/2019-06/10/content_37478727.htm)

~~~
codezero
Weird question, maybe a coincidence, but does anyone know why most of the
signs are blue? Is that significant at all?

~~~
larrysalibra
During the 2014 Umbrella movement protests, blue came to represent supporters
of the police and the government and yellow, the protestors.

~~~
codezero
Awesome, thanks for the context. That's really interesting.

------
larrysalibra
Does anyone from Twitter reading know why (or when) China, Hong Kong and
Taiwan were removed as location options for trending news in Twitter?

[https://twitter.com/LeoAW/status/1138718391978536960](https://twitter.com/LeoAW/status/1138718391978536960)

------
jger15
Found these posts from Inkstone helpful:

[https://www.inkstonenews.com/politics/hong-kongs-
extradition...](https://www.inkstonenews.com/politics/hong-kongs-extradition-
plan-why-million-people-protested-it/article/3013831)

[https://www.inkstonenews.com/china/hong-kong-part-china-
why-...](https://www.inkstonenews.com/china/hong-kong-part-china-why-are-
people-protesting-and-other-questions-answered/article/3014177)

~~~
tzakrajs
Reads like propaganda

~~~
komali2
How so? I'm a bloodhound for PRC propaganda but it passed the smell test for
me.

~~~
tzakrajs
Because they don’t add any concession statements around how CCP has no social
power or respect in Hong Kong. The article was so sterile it understated the
need for autonomy in Hong Kong. The questions it answered were loaded and the
answers were Xi Pooh approved.

~~~
ddeck
Not to mention paroting the red herring regarding the motivation for the
legislation.

Four paragraphs are dedicated to explaining that it is being proposed in order
to ensure a murderer faces justice in Taiwan, when in fact the Taiwan
government has stated explicitly that they will not request his extradition
under this arrangement[1]. Furthermore they claim that they attempted to
liaise with the Hong Kong government for assistance regarding the murder three
times prior to the bill being proposed and were met with silence.

[1]
[https://www.hkba.org/sites/default/files/A%20Brief%20Guide%2...](https://www.hkba.org/sites/default/files/A%20Brief%20Guide%20to%20issues%20arising%20from%20the%20Fugitive%20Offenders%20And%20Mutual%20Legal%20Assistance%20in%20Criminal%20Matters%20Legislation%20%28Amendment%29%20Bill%202019%20%28%E2%80%9CThe%20Bill%E2%80%9D%29.pdf)

~~~
yorwba
They accurately report what the claimed reason for the bill is. The next
section contrasts it with the views of those opposed to the bill. That's not
parroting, it's just an attempt to give an overview of different stakeholder's
opinions on the issue.

If a Beijing-controlled propaganda outlet writes stuff like

 _In practice, however, given the political nature of mainland China’s legal
system, the protesters took to the street in part because they simply did not
trust the Hong Kong government or Beijing._

 _People in support of the law exist, but they’re in the minority. According
to a recent survey by Hong Kong University, 17% of the 1,002 respondents were
supportive of extraditing Hong Kong people to mainland China for trials. (66%
of them were opposed.)_

 _On the Chinese internet, messages about the demonstrations were heavily
censored. Mostly posts by state-run media outlets were allowed._

then they're playing a _very_ long game.

~~~
alanwong
Writer of the articles, and an editor of Inkstone here. Thank you so much for
the comment. You're describing exactly what that piece sought to do: a quick
look at the views of the main stakeholders. You may also be interested in a
thread I tweeted yesterday that goes a little deeper into the tensions behind
the extradition bill:
[https://twitter.com/alanwongw/status/1138670655480639490](https://twitter.com/alanwongw/status/1138670655480639490)

------
pleasecalllater
Could someone explain my why they really protest? Anybody from Hong Kong here?
I read a couple of different explanations and I'm not sure.

~~~
JumpCrisscross
> _Could someone explain my why they really protest?_

Vox recently made a good video on the topic [1].

In 1984, Beijing agreed with Britain that after the handoff in 1997, China
would respect Hong Kong’s political system [2]. Hence, Deng Xiaoping’s “one
country, two systems” [3].

Beijing is breaking that agreement. It already tried abduction [4]. Now it
wants to be able to extradite anyone to China to be tried in Chinese courts.

This is problematic. Hong Kong, like Japan, Taiwan, Britain and America, has
an independent judiciary where the government must prove its case. So if a
dissident is tried in Hong Kong, prosecutors have to prove their case in a
relatively fair court.

Chinese courts are party instruments. (Consider that there is no way to
enforce Hong Kong’s rights under the 1984 agreement.) Under the proposed
legislation, said dissident would be shipped to China where a rubber-stamp
conviction could be sought.

[1]
[https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=MQyxG4vTyZ8](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=MQyxG4vTyZ8)

[2]
[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transfer_of_sovereignty_over...](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transfer_of_sovereignty_over_Hong_Kong)

[3]
[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/One_country,_two_systems](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/One_country,_two_systems)

[4]
[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causeway_Bay_Books_disappear...](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causeway_Bay_Books_disappearances)

~~~
ptah
I am unsure why beijing would be obligated to make any promises to UK as they
are essentially just taking back their property after a lease ended?

~~~
NedIsakoff
What most people call Hong Kong consists of three major areas: Hong Kong
Island, Kowloon, and New Territories.

Hong Kong Island (where majority of people live) was given to UK with no lease
limits. Kowloon and New Territories were leased to UK for 99 years in 1898.
So, in theory UK only needed to return Kowloon and New Territories. Of course,
this wasn’t practical. It’s like giving Manhattan to another country but
keeping Queens and Brooklyn. So in 1994 UK agree to return all 3 (Hong Kong
Island, Kowloon, and New Territories) in 1997.

~~~
larrysalibra
Kowloon south of Boundary street was also ceded in perpetuity to the UK in
1860. Kowloon north of boundary street was leased for 99 years in 1898.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boundary_Street](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boundary_Street)

------
chibg10
Can anyone close to the situation share the best way to support the protesters
from outside of Hong Kong?

~~~
DyslexicAtheist
in order of effectiveness:

1) don't buy Chinese goods.

2) share news like this and other examples about how China treats dissidents
on channels like LinkedIn which are frequented by Chinese and those doing
business with China pretending it's all good.

3) protest outside a Chinese embassy (don't forget your umbrella)

4) if you're in the loop and aware of such things then call out those Western
politicians pandering to Chinese bureaucrats (I'm aware of infrastructure
projects in SE Europe and Africa where plenty of dark money flows ... hello
Croatia Tourism board, BiH, Serbia, Montenegro ...)

~~~
eatbitseveryday
> 3) protest outside a Chinese embassy (don't forget your umbrella)

Here's my concern already. I have in-laws that live in China. I have a Chinese
visa, and need to travel to China for work sometimes.

Won't doing this jeopardize me in some way? I'd be happy to participate if
only I knew I'd never return to the country or had no ties there.

~~~
chibg10
Wear a mask :)

~~~
codezero
China has pioneered biometric measurements of people on things other than
face, like gait, so also, maybe wear a single platform shoe :)

------
immichaelwang
More and more people are going to flee to Singapore.

Anyone know what the tech scene there is like?

~~~
ulfw
Oh that's a great idea. From a one-party state to another one-party state.
Though of course those two can't be compared, I admit.

The Tech scene in Singapore, to answer your question, is about 10x what it is
in Hong Kong. The big two are Grab and SEA though, which might not be for
everyone. Tons of startups and a sizeable Google office (among others) as
well.

~~~
komali2
Try Taiwan or Vietnam - well, Vietnam another one party state, but a
burgeoning tech scene and HUGE population of like-minded hackers.

Taiwan is Taiwan: democratic version of China. I've sung its praises too much
here, but it is a superior alternative to those looking to involve their
business in the Mandarin speaking world.

~~~
coconut_crab
> Try Taiwan or Vietnam - well, Vietnam another one party state, but a
> burgeoning tech scene and HUGE population of like-minded hackers.

Where can I find those communities you mentioned in Vietnam?

~~~
komali2
Well, meetup is a good start
[https://www.meetup.com/topics/entrepreneurship/vn/](https://www.meetup.com/topics/entrepreneurship/vn/)

Just hit one or two, get in with the local expat crew, and it'll all fall into
place from there. Facebook groups sometimes a good way as well. Saigon seems
to be the main city for it but Hanoi has crews as well, and they're also
spread out somewhat in some of the other cities.

------
loup-vaillant
_(pw;dr)_ Well, that doesn't sound too bad, right? Here in France we have our
tear gas and our rubber bullets too. All complete with torn hands and lost
eyes.

Wait a minute, that doesn't sound too good after all…

~~~
utbabya
Do they hit a girl like that?
[https://www.facebook.com/105259197447/posts/1015774028165244...](https://www.facebook.com/105259197447/posts/10157740281652448?s=774371925&v=e&sfns=xmwa)

~~~
loup-vaillant
Don't know about girls specifically, but I recall having seen images of
something like 4-5 cops hitting one protestor in a similar manner.

Our police force is significantly more violent than the German one, and I
think the English one as well.

~~~
utbabya
Not being sexist here. By girl I literally meant the teenage girl as shown in
the video or a teenager generally. I should've said a weak and scared person
who's obviously incapable of defending him/herself nor willing to fight back.

From what you said perhaps sadly it does happen in France too.

~~~
loup-vaillant
I understand what you meant. And there _is_ a sexist bias where hitting a
teenage girl or an old lady is worse than hitting pretty much anyone else.

But that's not what we talk about most here. The main problem is more the
general scare tactics. For instance with the Yellow Vests movements, there
were several instance of the cops encircling the protestors _without giving
them an out_ , and then they threw tear gas at them. This terror technique is
not just scary and uncomfortable, it's pretty darn _dangerous_ , just because
people get so tightly packed together. (One can be chocked just by the
pressure).

But it's not as bad for PR as hitting a defenceless teenage girl.

------
rollinDyno
So apparently this is deemed to be "some interesting new phenomenon" so that
it does not violate the guidelines and stays "On-Topic".

If Charlottesville posts did not fly on this board why is this OK to be
discussed?

I'm all for talking politics by the way.

~~~
JumpCrisscross
> _If Charlottesville posts did not fly on this board why is this OK to be
> discussed?_

Charlottesville was an internal protest of limited global consequence. This is
the disassembly of a system of limited democracy and rule of law. It’s much
more meaningful on a broader scale, and interesting as a result.

~~~
ohitsdom
I'd say the rise of white nationalism is pretty meaningful and its impact on
this administration (and foreign policy) has had significant consequences.

~~~
blatant
Charlottesville was actually the downfall of those white nationalist groups.
Ever since then they have lost supporters, been deplatformed, and pushed back
into obscurity. Also, the type of militant white nationalism you saw at
Charlottesville has definitely not had any real influence on the
administration (just like how antifa protesters don't have any influence on
the Democratic party).

~~~
DuskStar
> Also, the type of militant white nationalism you saw at Charlottesville has
> definitely not had any real influence on the administration (just like how
> antifa protesters don't have any influence on the Democratic party).

I'm honestly not sure if you're being sarcastic here.

~~~
blatant
No, I am not. Many of these white nationalist types want to send all African
Americans to Alaska gulag-style, yet you don't see Trump talking about that,
do you? Where's the wall? What happened to Steve Bannon and all the non-
mainstream Republicans that were in the white house? Why isn't Trump talking
about deporting all Muslims? Moreover, these people also hate Israel because
they are anti-Semitic, yet Trump is one of the biggest champions of Israel.
You see, I am not talking about alt-lite people like Ben Shaprio, I am talking
about the neo-nazi, "Defend Evropa" people who were the main sources of
outrage during Charlottesville. These are not Fox news Republicans. These
people have no actual power compared to the Koch Brothers and lobbyists who
are the actual influencers in the white house.

~~~
DuskStar
Ah, I was looking at this the other way around, as a lot of people would say
that Antifa protesters _do_ in fact have some influence over the Democratic
party.

------
zeristor
This is one way to commemorate Tiananmen Square protest’s 30th anniversary

~~~
multibit
Massacre. It wasn't just a protest. Hundreds were gunned down and their bodies
squished by tanks.

~~~
adinobro
Be aware that the famous "tank man" was not actually run over. You can see the
rest of the video if you look online.

The CIA files have also been leaked which provides more information about that
happened that day. As always the truth seems to be somewhere in the middle.
Not as bad as the western media says it was but worse than the Chinese
government admits.

I always find it weird that no one seems to care about the Nanjing massacre
which was much bigger or that Tulsa massacre which most Americans seem to be
unaware of...

~~~
cycrutchfield
So did the PRC run over its own citizens with tanks and shoot them with
bullets, or not? Nobody brought up Tank Man except for you.

I always find it weird when people spring up in threads like this to spout
disinformation and whataboutism then act so innocently about it.

~~~
adinobro
Everything that I've read said that they did.

I was just told disinformation growing up along with virtually everyone I grew
up with. Maybe your country was more honest about it but mine wasn't
(Australia). Most people that I talk to still think he was run over.

I made the point because I assume other people don't know either...

~~~
spacehunt
I also grew up in Australia (Melbourne) in the 90s and whilst we were told at
the time we don't know what happened to him -- and it's true, at the time we
didn't know -- there were no assumptions made about his fate. In fact we were
explicitly told not to make any assumptions without facts, as part of the
lessons on how to consume news media.

The videos on him were released only much later on.

~~~
adinobro
I found out (as an adult) that the first 10 seconds of this video had been
aired:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4woMuFZAx88](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4woMuFZAx88)

My teacher should have known about it.

Now I found out that the media has had this footage the whole time:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qq8zFLIftGk](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qq8zFLIftGk)
but didn't air it.

I understand why. It was blatant propaganda from the west. It makes the story
more interesting since people wonder if he was run over which was never stated
but implied when I was told: "we don't know what happened after this photo was
taken".

~~~
cycrutchfield
I mean, we do not know what happened to him after the photo was taken. He very
well could have been rounded up later and executed.

Why are you assuming that it's propaganda? You are the only one in this thread
who seems to have associated Tank Man with being run over. Nobody else thought
that happened, because there was no footage of it. It's just you.

~~~
adinobro
Roughly 1,000 people died. The population of Beijing was roughly 10,000,000.
Chances are he went home and was ignored since he wasn't a student protestor
and was basically a nobody. The most boring answer is most likely to be true
but no one ever says that. Everyone always says "maybe he was killed".

The reason why I call it propaganda is because it is. The photos and videos
are true. But the media decided to just show a small clip of the footage to
make it more dramatic and suppressed the whole clip for years. The whole clip
is less dramatic. Basically the same as the 3rd example
[https://www.boredpanda.com/examples-media-truth-
manipulation...](https://www.boredpanda.com/examples-media-truth-
manipulation/)

Look at all the videos for the 30-year anniversary. None of them use the full
clip. All the ones I've seen either just include the photo or cut out as the
3rd tank roles to a stop.

I've become more disillusioned with the media the more I travel and experience
news as it happens and see how biased it is.

------
hu3
Sorry but this is not why I read Hacker News.

When I want this kind of content I open reddit.

~~~
enraged_camel
If you feel something doesn't belong on the site, please use the flagging
feature.

Going into the comments and posting that you don't think something belongs on
the site rarely leads to a productive conversation.

~~~
lxrbst
I can't flag content, for some reason. Maybe I'm not active enough on this
site.

------
majia
Could there be a reasonable compromise? For example each extradition case must
be reviewed by an independent court or a board made of independent citizen
representatives. A very high bar for extradition with sufficient due process
can hopefully minimize CCP interference while preventing Hong Kong from
becoming a safe haven for criminals and corrupt CCP officials.

~~~
wyuenho
That is exactly what was proposed by the HKBAR, but obviously it was refused.
This isn't really just about extradition, it's about giving China enough power
to capture anyone passing through Hong Kong that's worth a bargaining chip or
two, which could mean a lot of investors and truly innovative founders here.

~~~
majia
I still don't understand why a robust review process cannot prevent China from
capturing anyone passing through Hong Kong. What about letting protesters to
form a committee to decide how can be extradited?

~~~
spacehunt
Because the only thing the local courts in HK will be able to do is to simply
review the "evidence" presented and not able to launch their own
investigations as to whether the allegations presented are valid.

In other words, there will never be a robust process because that is simply
impossible.

~~~
majia
Why not? Firstly it doesn’t have to be a rule based traditional court. A jury
panel of hk citizens could examine evidence and have a vote of conscience.
Secondly hk citizens who are reviewing extradition cases could be
representatives from the protesters, who have shown their will to fight
against oppression.

~~~
spacehunt
But this is not how the proposed legislation is written, is it?

