
Ask HN: "Is that work?" - throwaway_burn
It's a commonly heard phrase in my office.<p>I'm the only developer where I work, based in a [car] dealership, which is one of the franchise locations of a car dealer group which owns [more than a few] (or so) other dealerships in quite a large area of the United Kingdom. For the record, I am not writing this on company time [half an hour lunch break, although he still does this even if I AM on my lunch break]<p>I build websites, web apps, microsites, soon to be Android Apps and iPhone apps. I am in charge of slicing and dicing photoshop templates which we get from our designer (Who sits behind me in the same office) into HTML templates to use with Drupal, CakePHP et al. I am in charge of inputting the copy for said microsites and websites from MS Word documents, this copy is written by the "Marketing Manager", who currently sits behind and to the right of me. To the right of where I sit, is my boss, the son of one of the Managing Directors of this company.<p>Do not get the tone of this post wrong, I love my job. I love the people, I love the fact that it's only twenty minutes down the road from my house, I love that parking is provided (although, not on site, about a quarter of a mile down the road). I even love my boss, he's a good, capable man and just wants to get things done and do what's best for this company.<p>However, as my work load has increased over the last two years, and things have gotten more difficult for me (harder problems, taking longer to solve and a lot more thinking) my brain has gotten tired. I've become burnt out maybe three times in the last two years, and have had to take a week off in some cases just to recover from the last project. (Considering we get 20 days holiday and zero sick pay, whenever I AM actually sick, I need to take holiday or I don't get paid for those days).<p>Sometimes, when I have really lost focus, or a problem has just circled in my head for too long to be solved without taking a break from thinking about it, I'll browse HN or reddit, not for very long, just for about 5 or 10 minutes until my head clears. More often than not, I'll be searching for the problem I have and reading articles about it.<p>My boss has the tremendous habit (when he is actually in the dealership), of coming into the office and looking straight at my screen, with the now dreaded words, "Is that work?", usually followed by "Come on [throwaway_burn]! Focus! Get some fucking work done!".<p>Now, my boss is a very visual person. If he can't instantly see results, he assumed I'm not doing any work. I've just spend four or five weeks creating a completely bespoke front end for building car quotes based on a completely experimental Web Service API built by a car valuation service. They usually make you host an MSSQL server, and they push or replicate their data to your server so you always have an up to date set of data to build cars with. My boss decided that this wasn't the way to go, because it's quite expensive so usually a single dealer group couldn't afford it, hence why you have aggregation systems, and people have it built into their customer management systems. [The web service company] probably lets us use this system for cheap as it is so undocumented when I first started using it, and it very slow, which means I have to pull down the data and store it on a MySQL database anyway, which basically means I had to code a script to automatically get the data from their web services and store it in our database every night. There is a huge amount of data in their systems and I only pull the data for four manufacturers.<p>So I built the scripts. I built the front end, even though certain things weren't documented, I managed to get them to finally send me some documentation on how to use their data effectively, and as of yesterday, the site is finally complete and finished.<p>Needless to say, it doesn't really look like it should have taken four or five weeks of work to produce the site, considering some other sites I've done, excluding the bespoke car price quoting system have taken two days at most. In fact, the actual site only took two days to build around the drupal module I made to interface with my back end data. As far as my boss is concerned, I've been sitting on my ass browsing HN and reddit for four weeks, and then took a week and a half to complete the site once I was bored with not working.<p>It has come to the point where whenever he starts his rant, I put my headphones on, or I shout at him, or I get very angry and walk off for a while. I really cannot work under these conditions for very much longer, and to be honest I am really ashamed with how I am handling his rants and outbursts.<p>I have built so many sites, systems for publishing stock to stock aggregates, systems for publishing stock to our own websites using different data we get back from the other dealerships, loyalty systems, niche seo websites, you name it, I've done it. I have made this man and this company a lot of money, and it's cost them a little over two years of my salary, which is paltry to say the least with how much I've worked.<p>They even outsourced me to develop a ticketing system for a [potentially recognisable car service] company, to the tune of more than half my annual salary for four weeks work.<p>It's an abusive environment, regardless of the fact that it's overlooked if I come in 20 minutes late in the morning, so long as I make it up at the end.<p>I'm in horrible position though, I really do like my boss in every other capacity other than a boss. His lack of understanding of what it is I do, and the fact that he can't seem to a) estimate how long a project will take me, and b) realise that not all programming work is instantly visible makes me think that I am going to quit in an epic fashion of diving off the balcony head first into an R8 Spyder and break my neck on the fucking windscreen.<p>Therein lies the problem. Where I live, there are no jobs. Some statistics recently suggested that a snowball had a better chance of opening an ice cream shop in the deepest layer of hell than I have of getting another job.<p>Although I have two years experience (more than double that if you count the freelancing I have done in a non salaried position) in PHP, MySQL, HTML, Javascript, LAMP Server administration, networking, etc, there aren't enough jobs to go around the unemployed in this city, let alone some guy with no degree.<p>Trying to discuss this with him really isn't working. Any advice?<p>TL;DR: Does anyone else browse the net in work when they are having a hard time focusing, but not blatantly trying to hide it and yet get rebuked even when the only other option is to sit, knuckles dragging drooling on the keyboard whilst staring at the screen because your brain no longer works?
======
SandB0x
You write

> "I love my job...I even love my boss"

then go on to describe a nightmare. Read it! It sounds like Stockholm
Syndrome!

Well done for getting it off your chest, now you need to go find something
else. The situation probably can't be fixed. Sounds like you've made a lot of
decent things as evidence of your skills. You could probably come back as a
contractor/consultant for twice your current wage.

Oh, and if/when you do quit - no recriminations. You were offered an amazing
opportunity that was too good to turn down. You really want to work in this
new field. It's not you it's me, etc. Start documenting things for the next
guy. Best of luck.

Edit: Also make sure to read Patrick's advice here:
<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1829577>

Edit2: Sorry, was wrong about Statury Sick Pay, thanks for the correction. 20
days holiday is definitely not right though.

~~~
throwaway_burn
You only get statutory sick pay when a doctors note is involved, which can
only be gotten if you've taken more than two days off, aren't too sick to
actually visit the GP and even then statutory sick pay is paid at minimum
wage, I'm on £17k a year.

And thanks for the link!

~~~
TamDenholm
I've no idea where in the UK you are but where I am (Edinburgh) the average
wage for a salaried PHP Dev is £20k-£25k and this is a VERY cheap area. So i'd
say you're drastically underpaid, especially if you're futher south.

I chose not to work in Edinburgh because of the terrible pay, I'm a PHP
contractor and i work in London for £300-£350 a day for 3 months and then come
back to Edinburgh after the contract is over. I go back when i start to run
out of money again. You should look into doing this if its an option for you.
Feel free to contact me if you want to talk more about it.

~~~
throwaway_burn
I'll be in touch. (And I'm from Wales).

~~~
AlexC04
this made me happy :)

It's proof positive again of why I love HN. I read and felt for you with your
post then in no time, you may have found a light at the end of the tunnel.

Great news :D I can't wait to hear that it's worked out for you!

~~~
robinduckett
He wasn't offering him a job, I don't think :P

~~~
AlexC04
Oh no! I realize that... but you're offering him the knowledge, confidence and
support he needs to be able to make a lasting and positive change in his life.

If he's on £17k/pa and you're billing out £350 a day, then he only has to work
50 days per year to come out in the exact same place he's in now.

As long as he gets from you a list of those "first steps" on how to find the
contracts. Even if he starts out billing only £50 per day (for fear of not
finding work, in order to build a client list) he'd literally be no worse off
than he is now (of course rent in London is much higher so ... I think he
should at least bill £100/pd).

It sounds like he is a skilled developer with some niche knowledge in the auto
market. Suffering perhaps from a lack of confidence (are my skills really
worth that much?) and a bit of Fear, Uncertainty, & Doubt (If I quit this
hell-job will I have to go on public assistance? will I be homeless?)

He's got to make the leap and get out. No question of that in my mind ... but
he also needs help and encouragement to do it.

That's what I saw you offering (not the job) ... it's just the seed of that
mighty Oak that I've seen planted - but - I've already assumed that there's a
happy ending to all this.

What can I say? I'm a dreamer and an optimist. Probably why I spend so much
time reading HackerNews :)

Teach a man to fish and you've fed him for life.

~~~
tankenmate
I would suggest that he should start out at a bare minimum of £150 a day,
especially if he has web sites that he has done before that are public facing
(i.e. he can demonstrate his work). It is easier to lower prices than to raise
them.

A second piece of advice is that if you are going to be a freelancer you
should join the Professional Contractors Group (www.pcg.org.uk). They have an
enormous amount of info on their pages, even more for members, and just by
becoming a paid up member you get £70,000 of tax audit insurance.

------
ihanif
I am glad that I checked this thread after a fag and shit break without any
one even noticing in the office. More than yourself, I couldn't have been
lucky today. I am working for a small company, sole developer, more than 2.5
years now. I directly report to my director who's monitor is just behind my
seat and who himself doesn't come from a technical background. But he is one
of the most reasonable person I have come across as a boss, too excited about
technology and gadgets, recently bought IPads for every suitable employee.
Just like you sometimes I am overloaded with tasks and we are about to start
one, two new projects in few months. We have just started looking for
candidates via agencies and I have been given the responsibility to hire
suitable candidate. Finding someone on HN, who has at least heard about Node,
couldn't be more exciting for me. Here is the deal. I can offer you a min £25k
salary, can go up to £35k, based on the skill set. We have 25 days holidays,
private health insurance, pension scheme and sponsorship for training/courses.
We are located close to Reading about 45 mins on train from London Waterloo. I
can help you with finding an apartment close to town centre and railway
station, if you are willing to move in. If interested, please email me at
hanifkhan@gmail.com.

------
edw519
_To the right of where I sit, is my boss, the son of one of the Managing
Directors of this company._

100% of the gigs I've ever had working for a child of the founder were
absolute hell. Looks like you're there, too. Run, don't walk, in the other
direction!

Now I'm not saying that _all_ children of founders are like this, just that
it's my overwhelming experience. I don't know why this is, but I have many
guesses. Perhaps they feel entitled, _as if_ they actually built the business.
Perhaps they have stunted social skills because they never needed them.
Perhaps they feel superior to everyone else because they landed in a pot of
gold having earned it only by being born.

You are not the problem. Your situation is. If your work is good, it's because
he thought of it. If it's not, it's because you suck. You can't win. Get out.

Once you're in a more normal environment, two things will happen: you'll feel
much better and you'll wonder why you took so long to do it.

~~~
throwaway_burn
I would like to point out that in this case, (not that I'm trying to sound
overly supportive of the guy, but it's not that I hate him either), his dad
fired him THREE times whilst working for him. His dad only hired him back
after he had gone out and made something of himself (selling his own business
for lots of money).

~~~
shimon
You still sound overly supportive of the guy. His dad actually hired him back
at least twice before he had made something of himself.

------
swombat
Quit. Now.

This environment is noxious to your mental health, your sense of self-worth,
your ability to get decent work in the future, and so on.

Quit. Now.

After you've handed in your notice, and they're exploding into fireworks of
anger and "I can't believe this shit"-ness, tell them politely that you're
available for consulting work with them over the weekends if they need help
with the systems you've built for them, at a reasonable rate of £200/day.

Then go look for another job. You'll find one. IT staff are always in demand.
If there really are no jobs where you live, move.

~~~
mcknz
I don't necessarily disagree, but it can harder to find a new job if you don't
already have one. You also have to explain to your new employer why you left
your previous job, and "the place was a nightmare," even if true, is rarely a
good thing to say. Your new employer may wonder if you are dependable.

Whatever you do, do not accept a counter-offer, and do not let your boss
guilt-trip you into staying. When you decide to leave, you are gone.

The job search can take a long time, so don't get discouraged if you don't
find something immediately -- prepare yourself for the fact that it may take a
few months. If it happens any sooner, then you will be pleasantly surprised.

Good luck.

------
henrikschroder
Your boss has never managed more than one developer: You. Your boss doesn't
really listen to you describing how you should be managed, so instead he
compares you to other people he has managed, i.e. the sales guy and the
designer guy.

Until your boss has personally experienced managing several developers, he
doesn't have enough datapoints to know where you fall on the spectrum.

The only way he can get that experience is by you quitting so he has to hire a
replacement. Arguing with him, pleading with him, explaining what you do, etc,
won't give him the experience.

It also sounds like this is your first job, so do both yourself and your boss
a favor: Quit.

You will get more experience of different workplaces so that you can
accurately tell if they're good or bad workplaces. There's a reason most of
the comments here (from more experienced developers) tell you to quit, and
tell you that your workplace sucks.

Your boss will get more experience managing developers and a better
appreciation for the value you bring.

------
joshuacc
"It has come to the point where whenever he starts his rant, I put my
headphones on, or I shout at him, or I get very angry and walk off for a
while. I really cannot work under these conditions for very much longer, and
to be honest I am really ashamed with how I am handling his rants and
outbursts."

On the one hand I totally understand your reaction. On the other hand, I'm
inclined to think it is probably counterproductive. Remaining cool and
collected seems like a better idea.

"Therein lies the problem. Where I live, there are no jobs. Some statistics
recently suggested that a snowball had a better chance of opening an ice cream
shop in the deepest layer of hell than I have of getting another job."

If it is, in fact, true that there are no jobs available in your current
location, can you move? I'm originally from a rural state that has very few
technical positions available. Living in a major metropolitan area has
definitely opened up my options.

Even if you can't, it is entirely possible that you can make a living by doing
contract work. This may take time to build up to, but if you are capable of
demonstrating quality work you will eventually be able to sustain yourself.
Working a part-time non-programming job might fill the gap if you feel the
need to quit right now.

"Does anyone else browse the net in work when they are having a hard time
focusing, but not blatantly trying to hide it and yet get rebuked even when
the only other option is to sit, knuckles dragging drooling on the keyboard
whilst staring at the screen because your brain no longer works?"

I don't have the boss problem since I work from my home office. But when I am
unable to focus I try getting up and walking outside for five minutes. The
sunshine and fresh air helps give me some perspective.

I hope this helps!

------
tseabrooks
There are about 30 - 40 developers in my office and everyone browses the web
whenever they feel like it. Our group has super tight deadlines (consumer
electronics) and our boss' focus is always on making sure we hit all our
deadlines no matter how tight our parent company makes the deadlines. That
being said, all of our leadership (in house) are promoted Software and
Electrical Engineers. This is true from our VP down to our team leaders and
project managers.

I suspect it's different for someone working in an office with a lot of
business people but I think it's important to find an employer that recognizes
doing work on complicated problems isn't a linear process... It will often
times now be something you can sit down and just DO. I can't even count the
number of times I've spent 3 hours of over time in the office trying to solve
a problem only to have the solution come to me in the shower the next morning.
The mind must rest and be allowed to shift focus to something unrelated to the
immediate activity at hand if someone wants creative solutions to tough
problems.

------
dmitri1981
> Some statistics recently suggested that a snowball had a better chance of
> opening an ice cream shop in the deepest layer of hell than I have of
> getting another job.

You could not be more wrong. I organise the London Hacker News meetup and
speak weekly to people who are DESPERATE to get a good developer. Unemployment
may well be high, but there is huge demand for good developers. Unless you
have very strong ties to the area I would recommend moving closer to a big
city and you'll be able to make considerably more than £17k.

~~~
throwaway_burn
According to the BBC, In the city I live, there is around 8 unemployed people
for every 1 job here.

I'd love to work/live in London, but I am a bit nervous about getting down
there because I don't have a degree. I'm completely self taught.

~~~
dmitri1981
I doubt the BBC is talking about developers. You have skills which are in
strong demand.

It sounds like you are reasonably experienced and that MAY make up for the
lack of a degree. Also, in web dev a degree is really not necessary and there
are plenty of people in the industry who are self taught.

If you would like to improve your CV, contribute to some open source projects
on github on a few weekends. I guarantee that will put your CV on top of the
pile if are a decent coder.

Many places will be able to do a first round interview over the phone, which
should cut down on travel hassle. Also, if London is too far away there are
plenty of good employers in Bristol which should be a bit easier for you.

Anyway, if you need any more help / advice drop me an email on
d.grabov@gmail.com

------
metageek
> _They even outsourced me to develop a ticketing system for a [potentially
> recognisable car service] company, to the tune of more than half my annual
> salary for four weeks work._

And it didn't occur to them that this meant you were worth more than they
thought? They're hopeless. Run away. Take some of your vacation days and go
interview someplace where you can be a profit center instead of a cost center.

~~~
throwaway_burn
We have to take 4 days over Christmas because the dealership is shut, I have
used 15.5 days :(

Maybe after January.

~~~
henrikschroder
STOP. MAKING. EXCUSES.

You're a poster child for Stockholm Syndrome. You are completely and utterly
playing by their rules. Just start looking for a new job, that is something
you can do when not at work, and if things progress as far as you getting an
interview, take the day off from your job and deal with that problem then.
Call in "sick". Say you've got a funeral. Take a vacation day anyway. When you
get there, you'll realize you don't actually care about your current workplace
that much after all.

But by leaping to the problem first and then declaring that you can't solve it
right now, you're setting yourself up for failure. You're just manufacturing
excuses for staying in the position you're currently in. STOP. IT.

~~~
pavel_lishin
After he runs out of sick days, I'd advise him to just stop showing up for
work on interview days. They're not going to fire him, he's not interested in
staying there, and the bridge that he might conceivably burn is built out of
bubble gum and toothpicks, anyway.

------
iuguy
I'm not sure if you're setting expectations with him. I have this problem to
some extent. Some of our guys email around everyone telling them what they're
doing, asking questions, trying to get feedback from everyone else. Others
have clammed up, don't talk, shut themselves in. When the guys that talk about
what they're doing (and some of it is weird obscure stuff, so they kindly
abstract it) then you know they've been working hard. The guys who were quiet,
never said anything, then you walk past them one time while they're taking
their lunch late at around 3 because they've been working on something, well
it looks like they've been goofing off. The reason is that this is all the
information that I as a manager have been provided with. I know my guys enough
to know that they're not goofing off, but it can be a bit like herding cats
sometimes.

If you tell your boss what you're doing at a high enough level ("I'm working
through this set of problems to do with the way the car valuation service
talks to us - they don't have any documentation so I'm having to work it out
by hand", or "I've been looking through the code I've written to deal with car
valuations, I think I can speed it up a lot and reduce the load on the
computers so we don't have to buy new ones later") and put it in terms he'll
understand he'll know you're working hard.

Some people are shit managers. I should know, I are one :) Sometimes it's
easier to manage your manager than the other way around.

Also your 20 days holiday is below the legal minimum.

~~~
baha_man
"Also your 20 days holiday is below the legal minimum."

No, as pointed out above, 20 days holiday, on top of 8 public holidays, _is_
the legal minimum.

~~~
gxti
Apparently the business closes for 4 days on Christmas which counts against
their vacation time. _That_ might not be legal.

------
philbo
Regardless of the scarcity of jobs in your area, you need to find a better
one. What you describe are his problems, not your own.

Do everything you can distinguish yourself from the competition, i.e. other
jobseekers. Build a stunning personal/portfolio site if you don't have one
already, work on side-projects in your spare time and share the source on
github, write a blog, consider relocating if that is an option for you.

But definitely don't simply settle for what you have now. You are right that
it is an abusive environment and you owe it to yourself to move on.

------
robinduckett
I'm talking to this guy on IRC right now.

"Thanks for all the responses! Unfortunately it looks like HN thinks I was
replying too fast, and I am now blocked from posting new comments. I will
continue to read replies though, thanks."

------
c1sc0
ok, in a previous life I solved this in the following way: fire up a terminal,
download lynx, set up a scary color scheme, then consume the web from the
command line. This has 2 great effects:

1) You won't be looking at all those stupid picture threads 2) Monospaced
white on black font works like a scarecrow on most people

Next, find yourself a better boss

~~~
tjarratt
+100 for "find yourself a better boss". The recurring theme of this thread
seems to be "no one understands (or is willing to admit) what value you bring
to this organization", and I couldn't agree more.

It's possible to have a great time working in a language you hate, on hardware
that sucks, but only if you have a great team and great boss that appreciate
what you contribute.

------
davidw
> Trying to discuss this with him really isn't working. Any advice?

My guess is that you not so unemployable as you seem to think. I'd look for
another job in a company/industry where you're not just a 'cost'.

~~~
throwaway_burn
That's really how I feel here. Just a cost. He tells me he has to justify our
"team"'s existance to his dad whenever he sees him.

The graphic designer does all print and web graphic design,

The Marketing manager does all copy, liaises with the print firms and manages
marketing targets and plans with all the dealerships group wide,

I do all the web stuff.

If there's a car dealership that doesn't need to market or advertise to people
to sell cars, I haven't seen it.

~~~
davidw
> If there's a car dealership that doesn't need to market or advertise to
> people to sell cars, I haven't seen it.

Ok, but you're never really going to be the "star of the show" like the sales
guys are. That's why I suggested finding an alternative industry where they're
happier to have a developer on board.

------
vaksel
it doesn't seem like you even tried looking and are dismissing that because
you think you have nothing to offer

based on the things you've done, I'd imagine there'd be plenty of companies
that would have you...hell you can probably contact every dealer in your area
and offer your services that should pretty much be exactly what they are
looking for.

------
wyclif
20 days holiday? In the UK? That sounds like USA holiday time to me, mate. And
if you're starting a new job in the US, that would be positively _generous_ ,
I'm sorry to say.

~~~
krschultz
Ha, I wish we started with 20 days in the US. Starting out in the US you get
10 days of vacation at most companies (though also 10 federal holidays, so 20
total). At my company after 5 years you get 15 days, after 10 years you get 20
days. After 20 years you get 25 days. Yuck.

------
Robin_Message
To echo what other's have said here, it sounds like they have you in a sick
system [1] and it's basically abuse. You should talk to your GP; they should
be able to get some proper talking therapy/counselling instead of random
people on the internet. This will help and is nothing to be ashamed of — I've
had it myself.

Also, 17k is a pittance for a qualified developer, which you are. Find some
new adventures, you can do it. If where you is is so remote, then move, or
commute, or telecommute. Your very resistance to leaving is a sign of the
damage they have already done to you.

[1] <http://issendai.livejournal.com/572510.html>

------
charleso
To add to the sound GTFO advice posted already: When you do get a new job (and
you should), make sure you're on the revenue side of the business rather than
contributing to the company's costs.

Apart from the outsourcing you've done, your work is viewed by your employer
as an expense rather than adding to the bottom line. When it comes time to cut
the budget, you'll likely be lumped in with the 'fat' which can be removed
without much pain.

Conversely, if you find a job where you are part of the engine bringing in
revenue (whether as a consultant or a product developer), you will generally
be treated much better and have more opportunities for advancement.

------
sga
I absolutely surf HN and other sites throughout the day. My brain needs a
distraction every once in a while. As long as your work gets done, I don't see
a problem with this. Intellectual pursuits and positions are not monotonous
assembly lines, it is simply not possible to focus 100% of your attention 100%
of the time. You need breaks.

While I don't see a problem with this, your boss quite clearly does. Not only
that, he's handling his displeasure with you in a demeaning way. And as you
say, it all seems to stem from the fact that he doesn't understand your work
or what goes into you doing your work.

"I am really ashamed with how I am handling his rants and outbursts."

Have you tried sitting down with him (in private) and expressing your concerns
about his expectations and the unhealthy working environment that he's
creating for you?

I think that expressing your concerns in a very matter of fact manner is
completely reasonable. I would start by focusing the discussion on the value
that you bring to the team. Try to get your boss in the frame of mind that you
are valuable, you do your work well and on-time. Then shift the conversation
to the concerns you have. Use a lot of "I feel .." type sentences. Focus not
on what he's doing wrong, but rather on the things that would help you to work
better and feel happier. Try to frame it in a positive path. Also ask him what
his concerns are. Don't be defensive (or rather try desperately hard not to
be). Hear what he's saying to you and then try to say things along the lines
of, "I hear what you're saying. I even understand how it might look like that.
I can assure you that I'm a team player and I'm always looking to deliver the
best that I can. From my perspective, sometimes I need to let the challenge at
hand ruminate. That might mean that I need to look for a solution on the
internet, or even take 5 mins and think about something else. Just to let it
all process. At the end of the day I want to let you know that I enjoy the
work here, and I think that I deliver real value to the company."

Keep in mind that your boss (who seems to be woefully inexperienced or at
least very poor at managing technical staff) might not appreciate it. But at
the very least you come out knowing that you handled the situation in a
professional manner (great story for the next interview).

Another option is to get a feed of HN to your terminal (I saw something like
this once). It'll blend into your work flow more. Even RSS feeds to your
email.

~~~
sga
Here is a link to the HN feed in the terminal that I was remembering:

[http://www.catonmat.net/blog/follow-hacker-news-from-the-
con...](http://www.catonmat.net/blog/follow-hacker-news-from-the-console/)

------
wenbert
You should try working for a tech company where your skills are "directly"
connected to the products.

It sounds like you work as a support group for the company. In my experience
is usually underpaid, over-worked and the resources are not that high compared
to the ones that are in the "frontline". And you rarely get notices for the
great things you have done.

~~~
dpritchett
Came here to post this. You are most likely underpaid given the breadth of
cool stuff you're building. Android and the scripted automation you mentioned
are particularly good.

My advice is to contact a recruiter immediately and get used to the idea of
moving around a bit. Look into telecommuting gigs as well. As long as you feel
that you're lucky to have this job where you're undervalued you won't be happy
with your life.

Find out what you're really worth. Find out what you're capable of.

------
bradleyjoyce
I've been in situations like this where people just simply don't understand
what it takes to write software. The fact of the matter is that HOW things get
done is so widely varied, it can be incredibly confusing to a non-coder. For
example, one particular problem may take 100 lines of code and 5hrs to solve
while another may take 5 hours of thinking through the problem and 10 lines of
code to solve.

If you're boss doesn't understand this, chances are he never will, so like
others, I would suggest you begin the search for a new job. Another option
would be to return to freelancing... chance are you could still contract back
to the current company while you're looking for new clients if you had to.

Alternatively, you could print out every single line of code you've written at
the company and dump it on your bosses desk so he can see how much work it
really is (since you mention he's extremely visual).

------
iolande
Are you interested in .NET? Would you be willing to move? (We're close to
Heathrow Airport)

If so, email me at iolande@gmail.com - the company I work for is recruiting.
Experience with .NET is less important to us than a demonstrable passion for
solving problems and learning new technologies. Sounds like it might be a good
fit :-)

------
nkassis
I wouldn't be able to work like that personally, code I write comes out in
bursts and then I have a little bit of time where I'm just formulating my next
move. I often check HN during the day just to look at something else then
code.

It's never going to be easy to work in a non tech place and have them
understand what you do. You seem to have been there for a while and are
getting tired of the place, it might be time even if you don't think so to
look around.

The last thing I can think off is that you are building interesting stuff.
Stuff that seems to have real value, have you though of building products and
selling them yourself? You could even try to get your current employer as a
first customer (by keeping the relationship good ;p)

EDIT: One thing I forgot, do you think he might be on your case because he
also gets crap from his boss? Sometimes it could be that simple.

------
gte910h
You need to move to a different area. Hell, maybe a different country.

This is a bad job.

------
klahnako
You have limited options. I suggest using the internet for reference material
only (no HN or Slashdot allowed). Your boss is not going to change. What is
your job worth to you now? Do you need more compensation? If so, I suggest
working on leverage first:

1) Apply for other jobs, even if you must move. Only with a job offer do you
have leverage to get more pay.

2) Would ODesk or eLance provide enough income to live where you are?

3) When burned out, get out of your desk and walk around find out who knows
who.

4) The only way you can get another job is through your contacts. #1 is a
terrible way to get a job. Expand your list of contacts.

------
SabrinaDent
_My boss has the tremendous habit (when he is actually in the dealership), of
coming into the office and looking straight at my screen, with the now dreaded
words, "Is that work?", usually followed by "Come on [throwaway_burn]! Focus!
Get some fucking work done!"_

"I _am_ getting fucking work done, Larry. This right here is work. Unless you
know how to code a script to get the data this site needs from our web servers
with no documentation, then this is how I know to solve that problem. Did you
still want it solved or has something changed?"

------
chrisbennet
You've definately got to spread your wings and move on. Be cordial with your
old boss, offer to help them out/transition as you leave. The fact that they
subbed you out means that they aren't ignorant of your market value - they've
just decided to exploit you. On the bright side, the designer you leave behind
might get a raise when you leave. :-)

In the meantime, start thinking like a contractor. I keep a log to help my
remember what I was doing on such and such a day [I swear I must be senile
sometimes] and I keep track of every minute worked. I wrote a program to total
up the hours. I do this if I'm working for a client or an employer.

When someone phones me at work I say "Hold on, let me get off the clock." and
write down the time. Then I talk to them as long as a I want. When I'm done, I
"punch back in" and resume working. I do the same whenever I feel like taking
a break.

This system removes any guilt I would feel about taking a long lunch, talking
to a friend on the phone, coming in late, etc. It also makes it easy to answer
the question: "What did you do last week?"

Here's a sample log entry: 2/9/2010 Tuesday 11:05 AM - 12:47 PM 2:49 PM - 3:21
PM 5:13 PM - 6:51 PM Working on depth sorting. Transparency is sort of working
for one gamut - the last one drawn. Need to sort polygons for faces for all
gamuts at once, not each gamut individually. Doh!

Tomorrow: See if order of drawing Gamuts is enough to fix transparency problem
(draw closest gamut last).

------
mdh
Have you tried taking control of his perception of your working day? I've had
bosses in the past where the only way to manage them and their expectations
was to maintain a narrative of what you were up to.

Perhaps you could schedule a weekly (daily) catch-up with your boss to explain
what you're doing, any issues you've had etc. If he won't commit the time to
sit down with you, email him a bulleted list of what you're doing that
week/day. Don't get lost in the detail but try to highlight any particular
wins (e.g. "the database server we'll need for the quotation site is up and
running") and any particular roadblocks ("[web services firm] haven't sent the
documentation through I requested. I've scheduled a call for Monday to try and
get it sent"). If you're not making the progress you expected/hoped for,
always present it in a positive light by explaining what you're doing to deal
with it.

If he is always coming to you to find out what you're doing, it might be that
he's doing it at the wrong time for him (when he's dealt with all _his_ crises
and is tired/stressed) or for you (when you're having a short HN-break in
which case you appear to be 'always' slacking).

------
dcbell
I had a situation very similar to this; I quit and started freelancing. One of
the smartest (well...most worthwhile, probably not the smartest) things I've
ever done. I had it easy as a single college student---if you're supporting a
family it's a bit different---but if you're in the same position, do it. Move
if you have to. There are worse things than hating your dead-end job. But not
a lot of them.

------
woodpanel
I would think, that in a company where your boss or managers understands what
"the work is" that you do, you wouldn't have those problems.

Such a boss would treat you better, by not openly questioning your worthiness,
better pay or even payed sick days.

You should move. Into an environment of bosses competing for the best talent.

------
zipdog
I feel for your situation, 'cos coding for me is actually more like 50%
writing code and 50% daydreaming/browsing/whatever. Coding is a creative task.

Typically though I'll think of an excellent shortcut/solution after an hour of
staring into space, and that shortcut saves about a days work. Problem is, how
do I quantify that saving?

In the past I've spec'ed work to my boss on how long it would take to do a
project the 'typical way' and got approval, and then it's just a matter of
delivering it in less time than that. But if your boss can't estimate time to
do tasks anyway, that's not going to help.

As a short term fix, you might want to take up smoking , or start drinking a
lot of water, or something else that will let you get out of your chair for 5
minutes every hour.

~~~
throwaway_burn
I do smoke, and I barely get away with 2 5 minute breaks a day.

~~~
LaPingvino
I don't smoke and don't recommend it generally, but for work it has absolutely
its merits, and this doesn't sound right at all...

~~~
throwaway_burn
This is a quote from him last week:

"Between the fag breaks, shit breaks, you aren't getting ANY work done!"

He laughed when I told him to go and fuck himself, like I was joking.

~~~
mdda
Get Out Now.

You'll probably have an 'exit interview', during which you can suggest that
you'd continue to do the current major projects for 75% of what they're paying
you now - but you'd be working off-site, against a set of milestones (just
like a real contractor).

Benefits to them : They'd save on paying you to slack off... and on the
various National Insurance stuff too. It would be a win-win.

Benefits to you : You'd get the opportunity to say NO, which seems like it
would be a novelty. Moreover, you'd have time to pitch your services to others
to fill up the other 50% of your time. Don't sign a non-compete, unless you're
getting paid to do so.

~~~
parfe
Why would he take a pay cut?

------
allenp
Here is the best advice I can give you knowing nothing about you outside of
work:

#1 Take a day and get some fresh air before winter hits. Go on a hike - spend
at least 4 hours by yourself on the trail. Imagine the perfect (reasonable)
life - where do you live, who is there with you, what do you do each day?

#2 Can you plot a line from where you are right now to where you want to be?
If you still want to do development, can you use what you are currently doing
as part of a portfolio to show future employers? Do you have a portfolio of
your work? Spend the next two weeks at work taking screenshots, making notes,
etc, of EVERYTHING you've done at the company for the last two years. You
don't know what you'll want later, and if it is internal or changed you won't
be able to get it when you want it. Remember that ticketing system you made?
Screenshots of that too, especially if that recognizable company's name is on
it. If it's not on it, put it on it, then take another screenshot.

#3 You say you don't have mobility in terms of changing jobs. Why is that?
Experience, education, geography? Can you stomach moving if you got a better
job offer? What salary would you move for? You have no degree - how would your
prospects differ if you had one? How old are you now and when will you retire?
Is it worth working part-time, schooling full-time to earn the degree in order
to have 30+ years of increased happiness?

#4 You don't want to be seen as a cost (of course not, it is like saying what
you do is not important to the company or team). It sounds like your boss
outsourced your efforts to another firm and he made a profit from it. It is
easy to look at this like you're being taken advantage of - but look at it
another way - this is your opportunity to move from "cost" to "pays for
himself" to "profit making." Tell your boss to find two more of those
outsource gigs for other dealers and he will start thinking about you
differently because he will be able to directly measure your output.

#5 When you do start to look for the next job, think about how those new jobs
work for their companies. If you're making websites and you work for a
hospital, you're a "cost" again. If you make websites and work for a company
that makes websites... it is a little different. In your next job try to find
a position where you work with other technical people. It can be really hard
to be the lone technical person in an office (just like I'm sure the graphic
designer can have a hard time being the lone designer). Spend time now working
on your resume, don't wait until you see a job listing you want or meet the
right person. You need to have it ready so at any time you can send it out (so
you're not in a rush and make errors).

Ok, here is the summary:

#1 Fresh air, introspection.

#2 Build your portfolio. Be able to prove to a non-technical person that you
have been doing something for the last two years (besides taking a paycheck).

#3 Set your goals, identify obstacles and solutions. Be flexible and open
minded to your options.

#4 Find ways your boss can directly measure your performance in ways that
matter to him.

#5 Be prepared for the next opportunity. Keep your resume up-to-date. Start
today.

~~~
tjarratt
As someone who has changed jobs several times during my (admittedly brief)
career, I can attest that this is good advice.

Keeping a portfolio of work, and a way for other people to judge your skills,
is key. This can be as simple as a github account with some throwaway projects
that show off your coding style + preferred languages/frameworks, or your own
website, with custom wordpress theme, interactive portfolio work, etc.

It's a little scary to jump into something new, but you'll be challenged
again, and given an opportunity to work with people that will appreciate and
(more importantly) understand what you do.

------
grandalf
Sounds like you need a "boss mode" for your screen and also for your approach
to the job.

Frankly sometimes it's important to look busy. Or in other words, to better
communicate the value you're producing.

Maybe you should try to have some sort of deliverable every few days or every
week. Or, make him make the tough decisions about delaying the quoting system
b/c you have to create a local copy of the db vs paying extra money for a
solution designed for local hosting.

If he's saving your anual salary in the 4 weeks you take to do it, then he'll
view himself as very wise for having made that decision, and greatly enjoy the
savings.

If he's a jerk, then quit, but if he's not then try some of the above and
maybe it will make your job more fun.

------
vessenes
On the one hand, you could use some new skills managing perceptions at the
office -- to move up significantly in the programming profession, you're going
to have to lead people down the path of understanding both how valuable you
are, and also how difficult what you do is.

Many engineers aren't good at this.

But, I echo almost everyone here who thinks you're in a toxic situation -- you
should get out; so much of your perception of what's normal and reasonable in
a work situation is being formed in your horrible, horrible one that it's hard
to keep your head straight. Nothing is likely to fix this for you, and getting
some new job skills to allow you to keep working in this place isn't a good
option for your emotional health.

A low risk situation for you would be to find some contracting work, then give
notice, given what you've said, I'd suggest you give notice first to the
boss's dad, explaining the situation. If you can't do that in person, at least
write a polite note explaining:

I like you guys, but the market is offering quadruple your pay rates right
now, and the work environment is not enticing enough to make me want to stay.
Best regards, blah. Do this to minimize badmouthing effects by your now-jilted
boss; it won't solve everything, but it's worth going over his head in a
situation like this. Don't knock him, just explain that you can make X and Y
with double the vacation, better benefits, and etc. etc. elsewhere.

After notice is given, and you've started at least one other gig (<<<<\----
Important to build confidence and reset 'normal' in your head), accept
contracting work they offer you with the following rules: at least triple, no,
make that quadruple your current hourly rates, and you choose the location,
that is, you come in for meetings and delivery, and do the rest from wherever
you like.

In situations like this, it's not unlikely you'd get a call when you leave --
they sound seriously unappreciative of the work you're punching out, and
hopefully the market will teach them that in short order on your leavetaking.

In any event, leave as fast as you can -- you might be surprised how
differently you feel about yourself and the world once you've made the jump.

------
corin_
I used to have a similar boss who didn't understand what it was I did: he
would pay me compliments for the simplest of tasks, and not acknowledge when I
had done something awesome.

Anytime I had an issue like this I'd just call him on it and explain, and he'd
turn around. For the record, he was a complete asshole in every possible way,
not a nice guy who sadly didn't understand - but he still wasn't able to keep
whining once I'd laid out why something had taken me so long.

You say you've tried to make him understand, but I suspect you just haven't
gone about it the right way (partly due to your description of your reaction
to his complaints).

Imagine yourself in his shoes, managing someone who's job you didn't
understand, plan out what that someone would have to say to you to get you to
understand. Then take that speech, work out which bits will and won't work on
your boss, tailor it exactly to him. When trying to pursuade him you shouldn't
be thinking on your feet straight after he's made you angry, you should
already know exactly what to say.

If that fails, the thing to do before resigning is to write a letter (or
email) explaining that you love your job, you love working with him, but that
you are finding it so stressful you feel you will need to leave if it doesn't
change. Explain exactly why you feel stressful, make it clear you understand
where he's coming from, empathise with his situation, then give examples of
why you work the way you work.

Draft the letter, leave it a couple of days, then write it again from scratch,
then compare the two drafts for differences, and pick the best bits from each.
Show it to a friend or a colleague you trust, get feedback. Think of the
letter as an importent piece of art that needs to be worked on until it's
perfect. Most of all, make sure you avoid giving him the impression that you
blame him, dislike him, think he's stupid for not understanding your job, or
anything along those lines.

On a side note, consider whether you can use any arguments along the lines of
"I need to read HN to stay current with technology, to enable me to keep
programming to modern standards." Maybe look around for a scientific study
showing that short breaks of the kind you take actually produce a net gain In
productivity, etc.

~~~
SandB0x
> "..write a letter (or email) explaining that you love your job, you love
> working with him, but that you are finding it so stressful you feel you will
> need to leave if it doesn't change. Explain exactly why you feel stressful,
> make it clear you understand where he's coming from, empathise with his
> situation, then give examples of why you work the way you work.... Most of
> all, make sure you avoid giving him the impression that you blame him,
> dislike him, think he's stupid for not understanding your job, or anything
> along those lines."

Completely disagree. This is not marriage counselling, this is the job market.

The OP is being exploited. I've seen this kind of thing happen loads of times.
It's too late to adjust the power balance between him and his boss. The OP
needs to find better employment - he could team up with a designer and build
sites for businesses and earn twice as much sitting at home. It's also very
important that he leaves the door open to well paid contracting offers from
his current employer.

~~~
corin_
If he loves his job, as he says he does, he'd be stupid to not even try and
resolve the issues.

My suggestions aren't exactly along the lines of "just put up with it" or
"give it a few years". He can easily try these steps while job hunting - won't
delay him at all.

I went down this road, and it kept me happy enough to stay at an awesome
company.

------
rdmlx
You like the job but not the guys breathing down your neck. So why not ask if
you can work from home every other day to transition into a full time stay-at-
home employee? Sounds like you get a lot done for them, if they can't accept
that then you really do need to find someone who can. This could give you time
to peruse Craigslist or other online sources for freelance work. There is a
lot of demand in other places for web developers, if you can tap into that
source you could do quite while.

------
pclark
What languages do you code in / where are you based?

~~~
throwaway_burn
PHP, Javascript (right now mostly Node.js, but obviously frontend stuff
overall), Bash, Java although nothing major / Wales

------
BillMartin
The internet is a terrible distraction; you shouldn't be browsing on the
company time. Looking up documentation is fine; the occasional news article on
your lunch break is fine.

Whilst at work you should be 100% focused on the task at hand. On the flip
side it’s important to realise you are working as a professional developer not
a grunt on a factory assembly line, if you require time to rethink things
instead of sidetracking with internet browsing, get thinking: draw diagrams,
use a whiteboard, write notes, print out code. You know your boss is visual so
use visual things.

Additionally it's quite clear you are frustrated with management, this
generally happens when an inadequate communication system is in place.

Make it an issue to outline responsibilities and tasks to your line manager.
Just write everything down that you do and email at the end of the work day.
That way he can quantify your usefulness with his manager. It's a rule of
work: make your managers life easier not harder. If an issue of work load
arises again you have documented evidence to refer to.

Having a slanging match with a manager sounds awful, unprofessional and
frankly doesn't say much for your or his attitude. Coming in late might be
overlooked but you are essentially stealing from the company. 20x7x52/60/24 =
5. That's a work week you're taking off, I might overlook it but I wouldn't
forget it.

------
petervandijck
Can you move your desk to somewhere else, somewhere where your boss won't
visit often?

~~~
metageek
If the boss thinks you're goofing off, moving your desk will look like trying
to sneak off and goof off more.

~~~
petervandijck
Yes. Or he might just forget about it altogether.

------
dennisgorelik
If you decide to stay with this boss, then every time he asks "is this work?"
-- ask him for 10% raise.

------
wicknicks
You did your time. Get the hell out and start something new.

~~~
dualboot
This is all nauseatingly familiar to my current circumstances.. thanks for
posting!

------
hasenj
Your boss is a jerk. Quit now, or as soon as possible (how much notice do you
have to give?)!!

