

Of Booze and Brogrammers  - vgnet
http://www.databasesoup.com/2012/04/of-booze-and-brogrammers.html

======
staunch
I think the core reason for this is that conferences are essentially all
expenses paid mini vacations for corporate workers.

It's a seemingly legitimate way for companies to give their employees a perk.
Sure, some people are actually there to learn things for work purposes, but
the vast majority are simply happy to have a few days off work to relax (and
_maybe_ learn a bit) on the company dime. It's America's (crappy) solution to
our relatively low number of vacation days.

It shouldn't be any surprise that people drink and party a lot at conferences.
People tend to do those things while on vacation.

~~~
neilc
_It's America's (crappy) solution to our relatively low number of vacation
days._

This would suggest that you'd find less conference participation in places
with more generous vacation policies, like Western Europe or Australia.
Anecdotally I haven't seen any evidence that that is true, although it might
be.

~~~
rickmb
What I have heard from various people is that conference attendees in the US
tend to be much more focused on socializing, whereas in Europe most people
will attend the sessions and then go home. But shorter travel distances may
also be a factor.

On a related note: alcohol laws may also make a big difference. Europeans have
pretty much grown out of the "awesome, I can drink legally now" phase by the
time they hit 25, Americans in that age group tend to have a slightly immature
alcohol culture.

~~~
bitops
I think this is a major part of it. In Europe many kids are drinking like
crazy when they're 15. By the time they're 21, binging and going nuts is sort
of passe. Underage drinking is also not seen in the same way as it is in the
US. The attitude is more "it's better not to drink when you're a kid" rather
than "kids drinking is the root of all evil".

I think there is a much more mature view of alcohol consumption. On the other
hand, many Europeans seem to have a much more hard-line view on drugs (even
marijuana).

But when you consider the history of the US, it is not surprising. We are
still less than 100 years away from Prohibition.

------
petercooper
I agree with this guy to an extent. _Drinking_ doesn't bother me, but I don't
like "parties." High density socializing and musical/similar entertainment
isn't for me (introvert), so it's great when events have something more
focused and event related to attend (as well as the party, of course) rather
than go watch TV in the hotel room (which, admittedly, I enjoy ;-))

At some events (especially smaller ones), "parties" can _seem_ to be at the
expense of things like BoFs (as he mentions), lightning talks, hackathons,
etc, and when you have so much talent all in one place, it seems a shame to
waste opportunities for it to come together productively.

Some of my best conference moments have been sitting around with 10-20 people
in hotel lobbies talking or in empty conference rooms coding. The worst have
been crammed into a bar and having to shout at strangers. As the author
suggests, let the partiers party, but give some space to the squares too ;-)

~~~
capkutay
In my experience drinking hasn't been conducive to being a good
programming/problem solver. I don't have the mental stamina to finish a
program when I'm hungover.

~~~
jpk
Agreed. I find even a beer or two throws me off. However, when I need to write
emails or some more social, less technical thing, a couple beers makes me way
more productive. I think because I tend to waffle on verbiage and think things
like, "no, that sounds condescending and I don't mean it to be, _backspace_ "
I find a little alcohol brings the "fuck it, _send_ " threshold close enough
to be productive at something I'm kind of bad at sober.

~~~
tedmiston
Such is the wonderment of lowered inhibitions.

"Drinking Alcohol May Significantly Enhance Problem Solving Skills"
[http://medicaldaily.com/news/20120411/9496/alcohol-
solving-s...](http://medicaldaily.com/news/20120411/9496/alcohol-solving-
skills-analytical-thinking-creativity-study.htm)

~~~
jpk
Reminds me of this talk about creativity by John Cleese[1]. The tl;dw is
creativity is about getting into an open, uninhibited state of mind where new
or risky ideas flow freely. Then getting into a closed, more focused state
that allows you to implement the idea without getting distracted. Being able
to switch between the two modes is key to creative problem solving.

I guess for me, alcohol promotes the open mode, but pretty completely wrecks
the closed mode.

[1] <https://twitter.com/#!/Renessa47/status/190802692245950464>

------
zerohp
As far as I can tell, there are no more of these kinds of parties at
conferences than there were 10 years ago.

Excluding academic conferences, I don't think programmers drink and more or
less than other professionals at conferences.

~~~
thenduks
I'm not sure why that's relevant. Should we not try to improve things just
because it's 'always been like this'?

~~~
zerohp
It is relevant because of the assertion that it's partially due to 25 year
olds and brogrammers. Neither are true.

Also it has not been established that changing things would be an improvement.

~~~
ktizo
Combine the best of both worlds and host a giant rave with solder stations and
lots of whiteboards.

Use an ambisonic rig and have tunable quiet spots for all the half-deaf rocket
scientists.

~~~
chronomex
I burned myself soldering drunkenly at DEFCON. Not recommended.

~~~
ktizo
Could have an entire floor of danger that requires a breath test on the door
to check that you are below, say, 35 µg of alcohol. Make the conference last a
fortnight and there is then plenty of time for people to sober up for
accessing certain areas containing heavy engineering.

------
tedmiston
It sounds like the biggest complaint here is more or less sound volume (i.e.,
loud ass music --> I can't talk to people). I share this sentiment with bars.
Quiet to moderate volume bars > loud "hip" bars any day.

------
Rickasaurus
I don't usually have a very good time at the conference after parties but
there have been a few exceptions.

The best time I've ever had at a conference was at TechEd New Orleans. It was
fantastic just to buddy around with the same people making the programming
languages and tools that I love. I made a ton of connections and some
conversations even turned into opportunities down the road.

I'm an introvert by nature, but exhausting as it is, it really pays to put
yourself out there.

Another example was at PDC. They had a big party with arcade games and VR
simulators. Sure, there was beer, but tons of folks were throwing down on some
Street Fighter as well. If you don't like partying, and you don't like video
games are there any social activities that you enjoy at all?

------
ryan-allen
I'm one of those programmers who likes drinking and yelling about JavaScript
in noisy bars after a conference. I'm friends with both types of programmers
as well, and enjoy sober conversations about JavaScript (again, usually
yelling).

There's opportunity here to start another movement at conferences like how the
unconf stuff popped up at the larger ones. Why not start a 'ModerateConf'
unafterparty at these things? Have hacking spaces, name tags, light music and
a small bar. All the 'brogrammers' (how I hate that term!) will go to the
other places and do their shots of absinthe.

If you don't like 'parties' that's fine, but there's nothing fundamentally
wrong with them.

------
ORioN63
"The Brogrammers are desperately trying to prove to themselves that, while
they may be programmers, they're not geeks."

Nope, we're trying to show people that being geek, doesn't mean being socially
awkward.

~~~
learc83
>we're

So you're classifying yourself as a Brogrammer, or you're saying that people
going to parties aren't Brogrammers--they're just socially aware geeks?

Geeks are awkward b/c by definition we are obsessive, and our passions tend
towards topics that non-geeks don't understand.

It can be tough for some people, but once you're aware that you can't speek
geek to a non-geek, the social awkwardness goes away (or at least fades a
little).

~~~
mjwalshe
Met any members of CAMRA have we :-) CAMRA is the Campaign for Real ale aka
beer geeks

------
russianbandit
"...while they may be programmers, they're not geeks. Drunken parties are part
of this self-deception."

So, all programmers are geeks?

~~~
learc83
I would say very nearly all programmers fit the popular definition of geek
just by being programmers. If someone you don't know finds out you're a
programmer, they're probably going to classify you as a geek. I think our
culture has moved beyond that being automatically negative, however.

If you find yourself in a peer group who still stigmatizes being a geek, just
wait until you're a few years older and money becomes the primary status
symbol.

"Brogrammers" often try very hard to distance themselves from "geeks" by
adopting non-geek hobbies, but still tend to approach them with geek-like
obsession. Someone who obsesses over cars, or sports, or beer is still a geek
--just a different kind of geek.

I'm sure you've met plenty of fantasy football geeks, car geeks, and beer
geeks who would emphatically reject the geek label.

------
JosephHatfield
I don't get it, I went to every Microsoft Professional Developers Conference
from 1995-2005 and I never saw any partying (well, there was that one visit to
Universal Studios that was pretty cool). I missed out!

~~~
BrianLy
Almost 10 years ago work sent me to TechEd 2002 EMEA in Barcelona. I remember
a party with Cirque du soleil (or a similar) troupe, and a Ballmer-like break
dancer. Everyone was driven over to the event at one of the former Olympic
venues. There was booze and loud music but it a fairly good event even if you
weren't drinking.

------
TamDenholm
Can anyone explain what BOF stands for?

~~~
garethsprice
Birds of a Feather. They're informal, ad-hoc meetings centered on a specific
topic. Like if the topic of "unit testing" (for example) comes up a lot,
someone might propose a BOF on unit testing and anyone interested can show up
and ask questions, run a demo, etc.

~~~
BrianLy
You'll also see them called "open spaces".

PyCon has some great ones although they were a little disappointing this year.
A combination of the hotel layout and placement of the openspace proposal
(sign up) board was not great.

~~~
mattdeboard
I agree. The BOFs were often VERY hard to find, plus they were what felt like
a 10-minute walk from the hotel lobby. I tried locating a few that I was
interested in but didn't have much success.

PyCon 2012 was my first geek conference and left me a little disappointed.

~~~
BrianLy
Please post more about why you feel this way. I know that Jesse Noller and
some of the other organisers would be interested in feedback from first time
attendees.

------
scythe
_Binge drinking_ is an unhealthy pattern of behavior. It causes damage to
those who partake.

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binge_drinking#Cause>

 _"I forget my problems (41%)"_

41% only tracks the number of people who admit this to themselves. If there is
a systematic problem of alcohol abuse and uncontrolled excess, we have to ask
what is so horrible in the life of a programmer that so many of them would
prefer to forget themselves entirely?

Of course I don't really know if there is a legitimate _binge drinking_
problem, or if people are just loud and drunk. I'm not usually at these
conferences.

~~~
wtvanhest
It is also fun sometimes. And it happens in every business, not just tech

------
iamgilesbowkett
"Don't invite Yehuda Katz to your user group! He takes everything too
seriously!"

"Don't have parties at your confs! You're not being serious enough!"

I sometimes skip the parties at confs, but I sometimes go, and I've been to a
few which were great. I think attempting to come up with some kind of
Canonical Seriousness Level for all developer gatherings is doomed anyway.
This is a matter of personal taste.

All you can do as a conf organizer is decide what kind of conf you want to
run, and make sure people know before they buy their tickets. Or, if you're
running a very large conf, set up loud options and quiet options.

There's also a flaw in his argument here, one which I hope is not significant:

"It's easier for overworked conference organizers to arrange a party than
other evening activities which actually require planning."

On its own, this sentence is so dementedly off-target that it initially made
me wonder what other wildly inaccurate assumptions he might be making.
However, later in the blog post, it turns out that he might mean it's easier
because all you do is hand it off to some company who wants to organize the
party for you.

Of course, not doing anything is easier than doing something. Can't argue with
that. However, if he really thinks parties require no planning, he either has
no experience throwing parties, or the parties he throws are not good.

~~~
JBerkus
Giles,

I've planned quite a few parties. In fact, I used to plan them professionally
for the San Francisco Opera, and that's about as high-maintenance as a party
gets. I've also helped organize a dozen open source conferences.

My point is not that planning parties is _easy_ , but rather that planning a
boring party (i.e. hotel ballroom or bar, bad DJ and some free booze) is
_easier_ than planning alternative activities. Scheduling BOFs, game nights,
or the kind of party at LinuxCon are all significantly more work than that.

And, in my experience, the majority of parties at confs are, in fact, bad
parties which require little planning.

