Ask HN: Is there anything you like about recruiters? - tbanacek
======
ericb
\- You can ask hard salary questions beforehand without offending a recruiter.
Nothing worse than going through a long process to find out the company
expects to pay below-market.

\- You can set salary expectations with the recruiter directly without causing
offense.

\- Companies that can afford to pay a recruiter have passed a filter to show
they are motivated and have budgetary flexibility.

\- Often, companies that are growing faster than they can hire are great
places to work. They will have more opportunities going forward, and stock
that is worth more. To paraphrase Gordon Gecko, "growth is good!"

\- You can work with several recruiters and line up a number of interviews in
a short window to get multiple offers to ensure a strong salary.

~~~
firebird84
> You can ask hard salary questions beforehand without offending a recruiter.
> Nothing worse than going through a long process to find out the company
> expects to pay below-market.

This right here is invaluable. When I talk to company recruiters (inside a
company) I try to get an idea early on whether it's a waste of time due to
below-market pay. I've had my share of people who were honest and open about
it and those who give me the "we pay market rate" nonsense. I take that as dog
whistling for below-market.

When talking to independent recruiters they're usually quite happy to give up
this information, and/or find me positions more suitable. It tends to be more
amicable.

------
uladzislau
Completely opposite experience here. Nothing good ever came from the
recruiters (unlike the direct contacts with the companies). Usually they are
hiring for the most undesirable roles/ problematic companies, they
misrepresent the roles to the candidates and the candidates to the companies.

The most annoying thing is however when they cold email you saying "I have
this great role for an awesome company". Without saying what the company name
and the role is.

~~~
pawelwentpawel
That is a really good point a truly annoying experience and a very common
occurrence. Very often I get messages that specify the requirements and some
buzz words but no mention of company or product that the potential candidate
would be working at. I'm wondering if it's a thought through technique as it
almost seems like a bait just to get people on the phone.

~~~
scarface74
They won't tell you the company up front for a few reasons.

The actually company doesn't want to be inundated with resumes without being
filtered by the recruiter.

Most companies don't have an exclusive agreement with the company. If they
told you the company up front and you decided to apply directly. They won't
get their commission.

In the same vein, if another recruiter caught wind that the target company is
hiring, they may try to contact the company directly.

Of course they want to get people on the phone.

------
scarface74
I think recruiters are great. I've been working with them for almost 20 years.
As long as they are local recruiters working with local companies. I have 20
recruiters all from different companies in my contacts.

\- They have always asked me for permission before submitting me to a company.

\- My application never goes into a black hole like it would if I were
applying for a company directly. I don't think I've ever been submitted to a
company by a recruiter without going through the entire process -- resume
submittal, phone screen -> in person interview -> offer. Unless I decided to
stop the process somewhere.

\- Going through a recruiter is the only way that I've found to filter based
on salary requirements. Most job posting don't include them and it's only at
the offer stage that you even know if you and the company are in the same ball
park.

\- I'm able to just sit back and wait for jobs to come to me. I don't have to
scour career sites.

I have had recruiters that don't understand that no means no and that while
money is the an important reason I work, it's not the only reason. Recruiters
were shocked last time that I took a job that wasn't in the top of my pay
range but offered more autonomy (the architect at a small company as opposed
to just another developer at a large company), and a better commute with
little travel.

~~~
killnine
I've had trouble finding recruiters in general.

How do you find yours? Or do they find you?

~~~
nunez
Find and message them on LinkedIn. Pay for the messaging plan; it is way more
effective than stuffing your message in the connection request. Also, be
prepared to talk salary and have a resume on hand.

LinkedIn is their tool of choice these days. StackOverflow Careers is another
popular option for them. Facebook Jobs _might_ pick up steam, so I'd
experiment with that too.

~~~
user5994461
and ask people around you what recruiters put them in the company, and how was
their experience with it.

------
codingdave
If you want to move to a new town, and just need a job to get you there, they
can help. If you get surprised by a layoff, and just need a place to sit and
collect a paycheck for 6 months while looking for something that will last,
they can get you a short-term gig.

That's all I've got. They won't make your career, they won't make you happy,
but they can help you cover the bills when you are in a bind.

------
vinceguidry
I love recruiters. One of the things I find myself missing when I conduct job
searches without their help is that they manage the process so that I don't
have to. The big thing that I don't do myself that they do, is collect
feedback. I'm not all that great at interviewing so it takes me a little while
to ramp up so I can make a really good impression.

Feedback allows me to look in the mirror and analyze my flaws. I don't
begrudge them their fees.

------
rcarmo
I've had exactly _zero_ fruitful interactions with recruiters as a candidate.

Direct contacts have always worked best, and although I got a couple of
interesting offers through recruiters, those were all the result of a prior
interaction with their customers.

------
unavida
There is nothing I like about recruiters after understanding that they are in
the business of finding and selling people for their own profit or their
company's profit.

I find them to be pushy, inconsiderate, unthoughtful, and lacking real, hard
skills that are useful to society. I find it interesting to think that in
colleges / universities there is not a career path to be a "professional
recruiter" like there is for "doctors, lawyers, engineers". Most people do not
go to college to be a "recruiter".

In fact, after many terrible experiences with them, it is my goal to develop
software which can completely replace human recruiters and automate their
jobs.

It must be a hard day at work to do the following:

Task: Find candidates for a list of positions Steps To Complete: #1) Search
LinkedIn, Other professional databases, Google, and other sources #2) From #1,
write a list of prospective candidates #3) Email or call prospective
candidates to discuss the position and optionally set up an interview #4)
Connect the prospective candidates with the client company.

------
nunez
Yes! I love (external) recruiters.

Why?

Besides being incredibly interesting people, their sole purpose in life (as a
recruiter) is to find you a job at the highest salary possible.

Why? Their commission, and their company's profitability, is wholly dependent
on it.

This is important. They not only know how much you're worth in your given
market, but because they are salespeople, they are likely connected to
recruiters all around the country (US) that can provide you with that
information in any market. They will also attempt to keep a long-running
relationship with you, as they know that, eventually, _you_ will be in the
position to buy their services and are more likely to get that sale if they
help you out now.

They literally benefit on both sides of the fence.

Recruiters helped me get to that coveted six figure land in leas than two
years after graduating school. They helped me land jobs at some of the best
companies in the country. They've taken me out on so many free lunches.
They're great.

Now, I don't like _all_ recruiters.

Robot recruiters are pretty useless (the ones recruiting from India for
massive orgs that can afford to waste money). They collect your resume and go
poof. Avoid them.

In-company recruiters are nice people, but, unfortunately, have the exact
opposite motive: to hire as many people as possible _as cheaply as possible._
They will say whatever they need to say to get your body into a seat. They are
the kinds of salespeople I don't like working with, since they work purely on
volume and don't have time to get to know you.

This is how I got screwed by Google and regressed in my salary curve. (Mind
you, the decision to work there was mine. I mean, who _doesn 't_ think about
working at a place like that?)

So I usually go around them by messaging managers on LinkedIn and establishing
rapport that way. By going this route, those recruiters become a formality
instead of a gate, and you are way more likely to get paid at or over market.
They are also much nicer to work with, since all they need to do to get their
checkmark is move the process along and get your offer signed.

That is how I recovered from my mistake at Google and had one of my best
working experiences to date.

~~~
imsofuture
Recruiters don't get paid if you don't get hired. They are not incentivized to
get you the highest salary, they're incentivized to get you _hired_.

~~~
nunez
The bigger the salary, the bigger their commission is. So, yes, they are
incentivized by salary as well.

Not the case for _internal_ recruiters.

~~~
imsofuture
Yes, that's technically true:

You sign at 100k, they make 20% so: $20,000

You sign at 110k, they make 20% so: $22,000

No deal, they make 20% so: $0

Do you think they have much incentive to make that extra $2k, while
introducing more risk, and not spending time on the other openings they're
working?

~~~
nunez
Of course they do. If they can negotiate with the hiring manager to place you
at the higher salary, and have a fairly good chance of doing so, then they
will.

Why? Two reasons:

1\. Because they are salespeople. In sales, you never leave money on the table
if you can avoid it.

2\. Good engineers are really hard to find, which is why the companies that
use external recruiters do so in the first place.

Oh, and yes, external recruiters will negotiate salary on your behalf.

------
mtsmith85
Yes, there are a lot of things that I think good, solid recruiters bring to
the table.

Here's why: I have a great relationship with a couple recruiters that have a)
introduced me to opportunities, and b) helped me fill roles as I was hiring.
In my past four roles I've worked with a small number of recruiters to place
engineers with my team — they know I'm respectful of their time, clear about
my expectations, etc. and therefore they work hard to deliver good candidates,
filter out the resume "chaff", and communicate realistically about what
candidates they see being available. And when it was time for me to move on,
besides my own meeting people and talking with different companies, this same
set of recruiters supported me through introductions and potential roles.
They've helped me as much as I've helped them. Mutual respect is abundantly
required when working with recruiters.

I think, though, this requires a willingness to ignore the recruiters that
tend towards being ambulance chasers (your cybercoders level), and not-
insignificant amount of time "interviewing" and building up relationship with
any recruiter I work with (on both sides of the table.)

------
kkleindev
Tbh most recruiters (from startups to large software companies) I engaged with
so far have been attentive and respectful, sometimes even very nice on a
personal level. I find it quite hard to judge them professionaly as I do not
know what they know. So what do you dislike about recruiters?

------
siliconc0w
I think the problem is that the incentives generally aren't aligned and it's
in your interest to be informed anyway about the opportunities near you. If
you're employable spend a few hours or so and do your own research. Make a
list of interesting companies that meet your criteria and contact 'em
directly. You get to know you are making the more informed choice and from the
money they save on not using a recruiter you can try to leverage a starting
bonus or additional compensation.

I'd _maybe_ pay for a recruiter that would be willing to do this for me but
that isn't how they work. They get reqs and fill them which works for them and
their clients but really isn't in your best interests.

~~~
scarface74
_I think the problem is that the incentives generally aren 't aligned and it's
in your interest to be informed anyway about the opportunities near you._

How are their incentives not aligned with yours? They want to find you a job
that is a good fit for both you and the company so you stick around for at
least a year so they can get their commission. Your incentive is that you want
a job that meets your requirements.

They give you the initial lead. It is still your responsibility to close the
deal.

~~~
siliconc0w
There is a difference between filling the reqs they've been given and finding
you the best job in your area (or even outside for remote/relocate).

They could have a SWE job for, say, Disney and suggest hey that is the best
fit but there are at least hundreds of places near me who need software
engineers they aren't going to consider because they didn't hire them.

If you do your research, interview at several places you find interesting, and
negotiate you're are almost certainly going to a find a place you like better
and be better compensated because you're working within the entire possibility
space and they're working within their client list.

~~~
scarface74
Looking at my spreadsheet that I used to track jobs I was applying to last
year, I started the process (phone screen -> in person interview -> offer)
with 16 companies using 7 recruiters. I had six phone screens in one day. The
next week after coming back into town, I had three in person interviews in two
days. I had the offer combination I wanted within two weeks with the right
combination of salary/technology/commute/title.

Those 16 only represent the companies I actively engaged with, there were
others I didn't pursue because they didn't meet my requirements. Similar with
recruiters. The 6-7 recruiters only represent the subset of 20 that had
anything interesting at the time I was looking.

As far as negotiating, if you have studied the market, and interviewed at a
lot of places - by talking to lots of recruiters and former coworkers you kept
in touch with - you basically know your salary range within 3%.

If going in, you were realistic with your salary requirements, and you set a
minimum with your recruiter. Negotiation isn't necessary. You should be able
to get your market value.

------
aarongeisler
From my experience (on the hiring side), the good recruiters were autonomous
and sourced qualified people. Bad recruiters wasted my team's time and brought
and endless stream of unqualified candidates. It seemed like the good ones
were 1 in 5.

~~~
scarface74
If you are actually "bringing in" unqualified candidates and interrupting your
team by asking them to interview people who are not at all qualified, that is
your fault, not the recruiters.

A 30-45 minute phone screen that you do one on one could quickly filter out
those who don't meet the minimum bar for the job.

I went to one interview three years ago without a phone screen, a phone screen
would have been better for both sides. After 20 minutes in the on site
interview, I couldn't even feign interest anymore. I just went through the
process after the first 20 minutes so the recruiter -- that I had worked with
off and on for years -- wouldn't look bad.

I said I would never waste my time going to an in person interview without a
phone screen.

------
dyim
I've had deeply mediocre experiences with recruiters in tech - but my
girlfriend was recently looking for a private equity job. She interviewed at
~15 places, and most of these interviews were placed by "headhunters" (i.e.
recruiters).

According to her, it is deeply impractical to look for a PE job without
enlisting the services of a top-tier recruiting firm.

I like these recruiters! Most people in PE are looking for jobs based on 1)
prestige and 2) salary, but she was optimizing for a less rat-race-y function
- and they were able to help her find a job that she really likes.

------
Scoundreller
In HBO's Silicon Valley, Gilfoyle starts getting all kinds of gifts couriered
to him from recruiters just so that they get noticed. Is there any truth to
this?

~~~
user5994461
You can get dinner with the recruiters after you are placed, or before if you
go far enough in the interview stages.

And I've seen some people receive gifts around me from other companies (small
things like chocolates). Nowhere like the SV show.

------
bsvalley
They're always positive people. I always enjoy talking to them even though
they do not represent the real culture of a company. As soon as you start the
iterviewing process then the tone drops and people are cold and competitive
with absolutely zero communication skills. Sometimes I ask myself - am I
really working in the right department? Developers really suck. And I'm one of
them :)

------
chris_7
First party recruiters are fine, if incompetent in technical matters.

Third party recruiters are usually scummy salesmen types.

~~~
scarface74
Third party recruiters are all salesmen - yes. Scummy - not all of them.

You just have to understand their incentives and who there customer is - the
company not you.

Your incentives and the recruiters incentives are partially aligned. The more
your first years salary is, the more they make. But they don't care if you
make the most possible. They would rather leave some money on the table to get
their commission and not take the chance you get a better offer from another
company.

They could care less whether the job is the best for your long term career
goals. Two jobs ago I was working for a large well known stable company but
was severely underpaid - over 20K based on the market value. Some recruiters
said I should "settle" for a 10K increase and most companies wouldn't be
willing to give me a 20K+ increase. I told them I wouldn't start with the
process with any company unless they were willing to offer me at least that
minimum.

------
raverbashing
Two of my previous positions were obtained through recruiters

When they know what they're looking for and have some experience it's great

Some are crap, but that's on every profession

------
rtconner
They're a means to an end. If they bring a job to me I'll make sure they get
the credit/income from it if I'm hired.

------
Jemaclus
\- They tend to be genuinely nice people.

\- They usually make hiring managers lives easier for finding candidates.

Those are the only two things I can think of.

------
id122015
I like when they are in permanent vacation.

------
EliRivers
You can use them to get a job.

------
vermooten
Yes, they find me work.

------
simonebrunozzi
Nope. Nothing at all.

------
kaizensoze
Nope.

------
elastic_church
I love using third party recruiters to negotiate compensation for me.

I like that they can simultaneously act as consulting firms and get me short
term gigs on the side even though they just placed me at a company.

I like that I can get them paid and they can get me paid, by stretching
compensation demands.

Fast interviews.

