
Senator Al Franken's Letter to Uber [pdf] - kyledrake
http://www.franken.senate.gov/files/letter/141119UberLetter.pdf
======
NamTaf
I note that many of the questions are around the processes, training, rules,
etc. that govern the use of technology developed by Uber. This is important.

Systems Engineering teaches the concept of POSTED: People, Organisation,
Support, Training, Equipment and Doctrine. When a system is developed, it must
give consideration to all of these aspects. Failing to do so means you design
an incomplete system.

In this case, Uber has developed a piece of Equipment, their God Mode view.
Franken's asking about the other pieces of the system, such as the training,
support and doctrine and people. These are equally as important to design,
document and implement. Failing to give due consideration to these aspects of
the system is no different to having an incomplete equipment solution
developed. I'm interested to see whether Uber gave due consideration to these
aspects of the system.

There's something to be said about startups moving fast to develop technology
but not necessarily the other aspects of a complete system. Mature systems
engineering / software development firms do this day in and day out. Yes, it
can lead to slower iteration on the core technology and capabilities, but it
is critically important to consider. I suspect it's often a pinch point when
start-ups try to scale, for example when a piece of technology then needs to
consider user access rights, etc.

------
A_COMPUTER
So, I completely agree with this letter, but I felt a sense of unease reading
it. I realized why. Other companies are as bad or worse about privacy, where
are all those letters? I wish there were a lot more of these and wonder if the
only reason this one exists is because the blowup with Uber was so visible and
so it can be used for political posturing.

~~~
w4
This was my reaction as well. Yes, Uber's behavior here is reprehensible. But
it's also kid stuff compared to what other entities (including the Federal
Government itself, whose behavior we never agreed to in a TOS agreement) are
engaged in, and I have to wonder what, if any, authority the government could
exert in these circumstances (disregarding the appropriateness of the use of
said authority, or any potential legislative action). Assuming nothing about
Uber's user terms and agreements aren't unlawful, it's almost certainly the
case that, as alluded to by Franken's letter, users of Uber have agreed to
provide Uber with this sort of access to their usage of the app.

So while I agree with the spirit of what Frankin is saying, I'm just left with
distaste for what obvious posturing and pandering it is.

~~~
smt88
I see what you're saying, but there are two things that make this more
egregious than other (assumed) offenses.

First, Uber did this brazenly and, one could argue, openly. Their hubris needs
to be curbed this way.

Second, Uber explicitly wanted to go after a member of the press. The press is
our shield against all the evil that is done against the public by governments
and corporations.

We need our journalists to feel absolutely safe in their chosen profession. We
may disagree with or even hate some of them, but we have to show people
considering such an important career that it won't put them at risk.

As far as I know, Google and other companies are using/gathering our
information equally legally. They might be doing something nefarious with it,
but at least they claim to be responsible and honorable. With the exception of
their press releases, Uber seems proud of their ruthlessness and lack of
integrity.

~~~
001sky
_First, Uber did this brazenly and, one could argue, openly_

The reported quote was couched in the hypothetical; reported out of an 'off
the record' private event; by a reporter that was the +1 of an invite.

Those are major caveats. While they don't excuse anything, they also (frankly)
answer several of the senators questions.

I find it un-imaginable that Franken (or anyone) has never articulated views
in the hypothetical, that may or may not have been in line with "corporate
policy".

Imagine if the 405 freeway was mic'd during rush hour. We'd have prisons full
of criminals charged with thought crimes.

All that being said, Uber needs to get its act together. Transportation is a
heavily regulated industry for a variety of reasons. There are personal safety
issues involved, interstate commerce, and all kinds of local issues.

Uber needs to get itself in a position where politicians and the public can
trust the company to operate in a manner deserving of the public trust. And in
that direction, it seems to me at least, that they are showing a pattern of
behaviour that is more at issue than any single event.

It seems their general approach is open to question, on quite a few fronts.
Wether or not rebellious, upstart brands are a problem, I don't think thats
it. They seem to take on take on a air privledged 'bro's' who are untouchable
and shady. And that is something that they don't want to be type-cast as, when
ultimately their business relies on the public's trust.

~~~
wpietri
> The reported quote was couched in the hypothetical; reported out of an 'off
> the record' private event; by a reporter that was the +1 of an invite.

The man laid out a detailed plan to harm reporters while talking to reporters.
That it's hypothetical doesn't matter. If a mob boss told journalists about
how easy it would be to make journalists disappear, that it was hypothetical
and off the record wouldn't matter.

Senior executives of zillion-dollar companies do not accidentally talk to
journalists. It could be that the guy is just a total idiot. But when
otherwise smart people do something apparently stupid that just happens to
serve their interests, it's reasonable to think that it was entirely
intentional.

~~~
yummyfajitas
The man laid out a detailed plan to _investigate and anonymously report facts
about reporters_ while talking to reporters.

ftfy

If we want to make hyperbolic analogies, the closest one might be a mob boss
suggesting hiring hit men to kill other hit men while talking to a hit man.

------
mikeyouse
Note that Franken wrote this as the Chairman of the Senate Judiciary
Subcommittee on Privacy, Technology, and the Law. The committee's mandate /
scope:

    
    
        Jurisdiction: (1) Oversight of laws and policies governing
        the collection, protection, use and dissemination of 
        commercial information by the private sector, including 
        online behavioral advertising, privacy within social 
        networking websites and other online privacy issues; 
        (2) Enforcement and implementation of commercial
        information privacy laws and policies; (3) Use of 
        technology by the private sector to protect privacy, 
        enhance transparency and encourage innovation; 
        (4) Privacy standards for the collection, retention, use 
        and dissemination of personally identifiable commercial 
        information; and (5) Privacy implications of new or 
        emerging technologies.

------
leephillips
Franken supported the NSA as the surveillance scandal broke: "I can assure
you, this is not about spying on the American people."
[[http://www.nationaljournal.com/congress/the-nsa-has-at-
least...](http://www.nationaljournal.com/congress/the-nsa-has-at-
least-1-liberal-friend-left-sen-al-franken-20130611)]. I thought it was
relevant.

~~~
mikeyouse
Franken also co-sponsored the original (much better) version of the bill that
was voted down yesterday to prevent NSA dragnet surveillance:

[http://www.pcworld.com/article/2050720/tech-firms-push-
for-n...](http://www.pcworld.com/article/2050720/tech-firms-push-for-nsa-
surveillance-transparency-bills.html)

[http://www.theverge.com/2013/10/1/4790484/can-the-nsa-
transp...](http://www.theverge.com/2013/10/1/4790484/can-the-nsa-transparency-
bills-make-it-through-congress)

Politics aren't always black and white..

~~~
001sky
Even Better, yesterday was just a dog and pony show.

 _The 2009 dissent, led by a senior NSA official and embraced by others at the
agency, prompted the Obama administration to consider, but ultimately abandon,
a plan to stop gathering the records.

The secret internal debate has not been previously reported. The Senate on
Tuesday rejected an administration proposal that would have curbed the program
and left the records in the hands of telephone companies rather than the
government. That would be an arrangement similar to the one the administration
quietly rejected in 2009._

------
DigitalSea
I actually agree with the letter for the most part. Yes, Uber are not the only
company out there with troves of data that is most likely being abused without
anyone noticing, but it is just unfortunate that the spotlight is currently on
Uber because of the silly words from a man in a position who should know
better than to say such stupid things in public (on or off the record, it
doesn't matter). He worked as an advisor to the White House, he should know
the importance of holding your tongue.

Not to mention all of the lobbyist pressure Uber is experiencing on the
business side of things, this is the kind of stuff taxi driver unions and
companies/entities threatened by Uber's business model can only dream of
getting. They are not doing themselves any favours here.

It seems that Uber have well and truly put their foot in it this time over any
of the other controversies and scandals that have involved the company. And
yet, after all of this, Emil Michael gets to keep his job? Seems to me the
only way Uber can start to make amends and repair their broken image here is
to make some effort and fire Emil.

~~~
JackFr
> He worked as an advisor to the White House, he should know the importance of
> holding your tongue.

You'd be surprised . . .

------
debacle
It seems like a lot of things are coming home to roost right now for Uber. As
with many things, I think that Uber is the first player in an arena where the
second player tends to survive (because they learn from all the first player's
mistakes for free, the groundwork is laid, etc).

The barrier to entry for an Uber competitor is quite low and trust is the only
thing that keeps Uber afloat. If they don't realize that and act accordingly,
they could die relatively quickly.

~~~
kjksf
The "low barrier to entry" is repeated on every Uber story and I don't get it.

It's a business with a very strong network effects: you need both sides of the
market because without drivers, users are not interested and without users
drivers are not interested.

Uber seems to have a big lead over competition here, is growing like crazy and
they raised insane amounts of capital so that they can grow faster than
competition.

But even without network effects, I don't see that as an easy to replicate
business: * you need a great iOS app * you need a great Android app * you need
a backed that is both fast and has rock solid 24/7 reliability. it can't be
like Twitter in early days * you need to become a payment processor that
interjects itself between users and drivers, which I'm sure comes with its own
set of legal and logistic challenges * and you need to do it internationally *
and you need a massive operation team whose job is to onboard new drivers
(recruit, train, supervise) * you need a legal team because every state can
have different rules * and you need them also internationally

I really don't see any of the above as easy to pull off and to do it all well,
that requires both technical and operational excellence that few have.

~~~
debacle
> you need a great iOS app

> you need a great Android app

Neither of these is rocket surgery. Good devs can create an app very quickly,
especially if your directions are "clone this other app."

> you need a backed that is both fast and has rock solid 24/7 reliability. it
> can't be like Twitter in early days

So you need something that isn't node + redis + mongo + riak running heroku
through cloudflare. This is also quite easy.

> you need to become a payment processor that interjects itself between users
> and drivers, which I'm sure comes with its own set of legal and logistic
> challenges * and you need to do it internationally

> and you need a massive operation team whose job is to onboard new drivers
> (recruit, train, supervise)

> you need a legal team because every state can have different rules

> and you need them also internationally

The beauty of all of these things is that Uber has already done many of them
for you. Unless they have all of their drivers under NDA (possible, but
unlikely) and haven't published any of that informaton on their website,
you're going to profit from hundreds of thoussands if not millions of dollars
of legal work that Uber has already done for you. It's not as simple as a sed
script on a legal document, but it's way (way way) easier than starting from
scratch.

The best part is that your drivers can also be Uber drivers, so you don't need
the volume that Uber has today - you can slowly build up both sides of your
market as long as the friction for drivers is minimal and the ease for users
is equal or better.

Is it easy? Fuck no. Is it about 1000% easier for you now that Uber has done
all of the hard work? Hell yes.

~~~
gregpilling
And you could start in your small college town, work out the bugs in your
process and then go national, then international. @debacle I agree. Micro-
Ubers could pop up all over.

------
tomcam
I dislike Al Franken's politics greatly, but I think it's every bit his right
to use the bully pulpit this way (I mean this sincerely). If Uber did track a
journalist it is reprehensible.

But how Uber could benefit from answering this fishing expedition? If I were
Uber I'd simply stonewall. They are under no legal compunction to answer, and
virtually no answer would help them.

~~~
brianpgordon
I imagine this is just a courtesy; if they decline to answer, then the
committee can issue a subpoena and compel them to.

Here's a nice white paper on Congress's subpoena power:
[http://www.mayerbrown.com/files/Publication/ec1203b2-a787-44...](http://www.mayerbrown.com/files/Publication/ec1203b2-a787-44ac-8344-5d5fab374ffa/Presentation/PublicationAttachment/11509b8b-df81-4db6-9e89-1d1b16c20856/White-
Paper-Congressional-Subpoena.pdf)

~~~
andrewpi
Franken will no longer be Chairman of this committee in January when the
Democrats are no longer in control of the US Senate.

~~~
hudibras
Even if this is a Democratic-only concern (which I don't think it is), this
would be an easy one for a Senator in the minority to sell to the Chairman as
a personal favor. It would just be a subpoena to answer some questions; the
Chairman wouldn't be signing up to actually do anything like sponsoring
legislation.

------
softdev12
Wow. I'm interested in seeing how Uber responds to this. I had no idea that Al
Franken was now the chairman of the privacy subcommittee. For those not in the
United States, Al Franken used to be a popular comedian on the show Saturday
Night Live. His biggest hit was this character Stuart Smalley:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uYPc-
dPVbow](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uYPc-dPVbow)

~~~
blazespin
Outgoing chairman. Democrats lost control of the senate.

------
bambax
This story was on top of HN a few moments ago and then seemed to drop like a
stone _while gaining points_ : currently at 22nd position with 325 points and
10 hours old, whereas these stories are above it (all as old or older and with
less points):

pos id points hours

6 8632209 292 15

9 8633707 129 10

12 8633683 204 14

13 8632405 139 14

17 8632363 140 15

18 8633286 58 12

20 8632043 161 16

21 8632018 141 16

What's happening?

~~~
dang
You can't derive story rank from displayed points and times alone. That's on
purpose, to make it harder to game HN.

The phenomenon you're describing happens routinely, for multiple reasons. One
is that we've been experimenting with flushing the front page of older stories
periodically when there is a crop of newer ones that, if not for the older
ones' inertia, would make the front page. This is related to the work we've
been doing to improve the odds for good stories that would otherwise fall
through the cracks. We might eventually change the main ranking algorithm to
accommodate this, but our approach tends to be to do manual experiments first,
software experiments second, and modify the core HN system last.

~~~
bambax
Many thanks for answering. However, this doesn't seem to explain it

> _when there is a crop of newer ones that, if not for the older ones '
> inertia_

since the stories that were above this one were _older_ stories, some much
older (16 hours vs 10): it seems the story wasn't pushed down to make room for
newer ones, but to make room for older ones.

~~~
dang
It isn't that straightforward; I'm afraid that without going into details the
explanation is bound to be less than fully satisfying.

Also, there are other reasons why stories fall suddenly. My main point is that
it's routine. Sample bias comes into play here in that one mostly notices it
with stories one was paying attention to.

------
mxpxrocks10
best part of the letter - two words I thought I'd never hear together:
"BuzzFeed reported"

~~~
iaw
In a letter from the head of a senate subcommittee no less.

------
AndrewKemendo
What are the rules here for Uber? Are they compelled to respond or can they
just ignore this letter and move on?

~~~
nostromo
They can ignore the letter. The committee could then issue a subpoena to force
them to answer questions.

Uber could refuse the subpoena. If they did, Uber could be held in contempt of
congress. But, that would require a full vote -- which seems very unlikely.

Hilariously, the last person to refuse to testify before congress was an IRS
director (Lois Lerner). She was held in contempt... and then nothing happened
whatsoever.

Congress's real power is to pass laws. Franken won't be doing much of that
with the Republicans in control of the Senate.

I wouldn't be shaking in my boots if I was Uber...

------
netcan
There's an element of pissing in the wind to the majority of "actions"
regarding online privacy. People are worried. No one knows what to do.

The best example is the EU/UK "cookie law." It was impractical to begin with,
mostly serving to allow legislatures the opportunity to be morally outraged
and incensed. Then it devolved into "all sites must have a nagging popup."

Realistically, the only way to achieve any of the law's goals was in the
browser, not laws dictating what websites can do.

This letter is mostly is mostly a criticism of Uber's bureaucracy. Privacy
policies, training, etc. Again, not really the place to tackle any of these
issues especially if the intent isn't there. Maybe, phones could do a better
job of letting users control the data they leak. We don't really know how to
deal with data in which the quanta is not sensitive, but aggregation makes it
scary.

An interesting point here is that the "statement" really sounded like tipsy
macho bullshitting, not an actual threat or indication of intent. What the
statement does indicate is a violation of the "don't be evil" maxim. Hey, Uber
have assholes in high places. They have a lot of power. How many assholes are
out there with dangerous access to data?

------
downandout
This is officially the most blown-out-of-proportion story in the history of
the Internet. When was the last time the US Senate got involved after you went
on a rant at a party? I'm certain that Sarah Lacy is enjoying both the
attention and the money from pageviews, but this is getting ridiculous.

~~~
thinkling
I get that people sometimes say stupid things after two or three glasses of
wine. And I get that blabbing about something is different from actually doing
it. But this was egregiously beyond the boundaries of basic ethics and
societal values, and a company executive should know better.

So you may think it's overblown, but I'd like Uber to feel that this is not
OK, so it got me to finally install the Lyft app which I'll be giving a try.

~~~
downandout
_So you may think it 's overblown_

I think it's the most absurd thing I've ever heard. I don't know if you read
Sarah's actual article, but it reads as if this guy called her up and told her
that he was going to murder her children. It is that sentiment, not facts
about what actually happened, that has carried this "story" so far. She is
exploiting others' fears about stalking and sexism for her own personal gain.
IMO, that makes her far more evil than anything Uber could or would do.

~~~
ztnewman
It's not "exploiting others' fears" when there is actual evidence that Uber
has tracked journalists and other high profile figures, and top execs have
brashly threatened to spend millions investigating journalists' personal
lives. This is disgusting.

~~~
downandout
_top execs have brashly threatened to spend millions investigating journalists
' personal lives_

Nope. ONE exec went on a rant at a party about what HE would hypothetically
like to do to a self-declared enemy of the company. Have you ever been really
frustrated with someone and said "Ugh sometimes I'd like to ring his/her neck"
or similar? Now imagine someone overheard you, took it literally, and called
the person you were frustrated with. Sensing an opportunity to exploit the
situation, they call the police, contact Senators about you, and write a blog
post about how you threatened to eradicate him/her and everyone they've ever
spoken to from the planet in the most violent possible way - all in an effort
to get clicks on ads on your blog. That is basically what happened here.

You're right about one thing, it is disgusting.

~~~
snsr
Maybe you missed this post regarding Uber employees tracking customers for
fun, in realtime, on a monitor at a public event.

[https://medium.com/@petersimsie/can-we-trust-
uber-c0e793deda...](https://medium.com/@petersimsie/can-we-trust-
uber-c0e793deda36)

------
trhway
Uber has graduated into Big League - got attention of a Senate committee, even
if of such a minor, "public feel good, no real money/power" one, yet still...

As the bumper sticker says "Government doesn't like competition" and the Uber
exec clearly voiced intention to venture into typical government territory -
illegal usage of private info against the ones whom you don't like.

------
coryfklein
Lesson learned: Don't spy on American citizens, the government hates
competition.

------
jwatte
So it's ok for the NSA to snoop on people out of curiosity, but not Uber
employees. Some citizens are more equal than others. Gotcha

------
dreamdu5t
Oh, this bread is so tasty and the clowns are so funny! Thanks Al Franken!

~~~
TillE
That's...not what circus means in that context.

------
omgitstom
Publicity stunt. When has he ever been worried about privacy in relation to
his stance for the NSA?

[http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/06/11/al-franken-
nsa_n_34...](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/06/11/al-franken-
nsa_n_3423413.html)

~~~
mikeyouse
I replied elsewhere as well, but Franken was a co-sponsor for Sen. Leahy's NSA
reform bill that was killed yesterday. Even the AEI gives Franken credit for
this;

[http://www.techpolicydaily.com/technology/nsa-
surveillance-r...](http://www.techpolicydaily.com/technology/nsa-surveillance-
reform-prospects/)

~~~
omgitstom
Thanks, I'm a little behind on what he has been up to.

------
Aeolun
Why is everyone so surprised that Uber is tracking information about their
users, or that employees have access to that information.

I just think it's incredibly naive to think that they wouldn't use it in any
way possible.

~~~
mfringel
"I'm shocked you're shocked" is just fancy-grade despair.

~~~
Aeolun
Not at all. I just think that what I've heard they've done with their data so
far falls into acceptable levels.

As soon as they publicise this data (identifiable) to people other than
employees that have access to it anyway, or the person concerned, that's where
it becomes an issue. But I haven't heard of any instances of that yet.

------
marincounty
Yes--the Boober made some asinine statements. Let him dig his way out of his
utter foolishness. Now to Uber. I was shocked what they expect you to buy and
drive in order to become a Uber Driver. Nothing less than a 2008 vechicle? And
the list of acceptabe cars? After insurance it just dosen't add up--unless
your sleeping in you car, or your in a brand spanking new market.

In all reality, maybe he said these things just to get the free advertising?
It's too bad it's come to this? That said, is there any freeware uber/Lyft
type code floating around? Just curious?

~~~
jemacniddle
Do you have a link to the original 'boober' transcript? Haven't been able to
find one, context is everything so I'd rather have the full backstory before
making any assumptions.

~~~
aaronbrethorst
It took about 30 seconds of Googling to turn up a link to the GQ interview
where this was originally reported.

[http://www.gq.com/news-politics/newsmakers/201403/uber-
cab-c...](http://www.gq.com/news-politics/newsmakers/201403/uber-cab-
confessions?currentPage=1&printable=true)

~~~
jemacniddle
"Not to make assumptions, but Kalanick probably wasn't the first kid in his
class to lose his virginity. But the way he talks now—which is large—he's
surely making up for lost time. When I tease him about his skyrocketing
desirability, he deflects with a wisecrack about women on demand: “Yeah, we
call that Boob-er.”"

Yeah seems more like an insult than a transcript to a conversation.

------
paul7986
These dudes are uber drunk and blinded by their success.

Hopefully, such lack of humility doesn't make them end up dead in a bath tub
like Whitney Houston. Success went to her head and as she noted in an
interview the high she felt after her hit, "I Will Always Love You," could
never be matched. Thus she snorted everything up her nose and then some to try
and match that high. Eventually, leading her to a downward spiral and dead at
48.

Uber to become Whitney Houston possibly...

