
Sound waves enhance deep sleep and memory - prostoalex
https://news.northwestern.edu/stories/2017/april/pink-noise-sound-enhance-deep-sleep-memory
======
6stringmerc
> _13 participants 60 and older..._

Oh we can just throw this shit right out. 13 participants? 60 and older in the
US?

How about some controls for Diet, Exercise, and other general, you know, basic
science shit? No? Well then allow me to just go ahead and call this study
"statistically insignificant to the point of being potentially misleading"
because I have pretty high expectations when it comes to rigor in academic
study. This is what Northwestern chooses to highlight?

Point being, I grew up sleeping with Bach, John Jarvis, and Yngwie Malmsteen
music for 20+ years. I think shoving a few cutesy-noise waves into the ears
during rest is probably nice, like having a good pillow or decent sheets, but
otherwise highly over-stated. This 13 person old fogey study means jack-shit
in the big picture.

Want to have some real fun?

Let's get the Neural Network "Music" that Google is Researching to play during
the sleep of 60 year olds and find out how that goes over. All these tech-
approaches to very primal emotional pathways are disturbing to be on a general
principle, mostly because not a single one of them has shown anything other
than Placebo-esque results, and when placed against a control group, fail.
Bonus hypothesis: The Google Machine Learning Music actually drives the
Elderly Insane.

~~~
mistercow
"Statistically insignificant" isn't a loose term you can throw around just
because the sample size is small.

Here's the actual study, FYI:
[http://journal.frontiersin.org/article/10.3389/fnhum.2017.00...](http://journal.frontiersin.org/article/10.3389/fnhum.2017.00109/full)

~~~
ikurei
Ok. And your take is that in the original example they show sufficient
arguments behind its statistical significance?

(honest question, not trying to sound snarky or anything.)

~~~
ikurei
(PD: I meant "in the original paper".)

------
phkahler
This bothers me:

>> Giovanni Santostasi, a study coauthor, developed an algorithm that delivers
the sound during the rising portion of slow wave oscillations. This
stimulation enhances synchronization of the neurons’ activity.

They did not actually measure "synchronization of the neurons". This is just
speculation. In psychology they insist that you need to propose a mechanism
for change. In this case it may be true, but they state it as fact without any
actual evidence.

~~~
vanderZwan
I suspect this is sloppy editing replacing a "may enhance" where Santostasi
said "enhances". That kind of stuff happens all the time when scientists are
interviewed.

~~~
phkahler
My point is that no mechanism is even required if an effect can be documented.
I let go of an object and it falls toward the ground - easy to replicate. I do
more tests and find a constant acceleration - easy to replicate for dense
objects (not feathers). And so on. For basic stuff I think showing an effect
that can be replicated is way way more important than offering any
explanation. IMHO even offering a tentative explanation gives people the
impression that things are more understood than they really are.

------
speakeron
In the summer months, I usually sleep with a fan (on a low setting) pointed at
the bed. This is primarily to keep mosquitoes away (it works perfectly for
obvious reasons), but the sound of it, I believe, really aids restful sleep
and I often have it on even when I don't need it.

~~~
alsetmusic
I have clinical insomnia and have relied on white noise from a fan for many
years to sleep. On cold nights, I point it away from me, but always fall
asleep more easily with it on the highest (loudest) setting. When I travel, I
turn the bathroom fan on in hotels. The constant sound helps keep my thoughts
from running rampant.

On the rare occasions when I can't do either of these things, I improvise with
earbuds, but the effectiveness is diminished.

~~~
Turing_Machine
I also sleep with a fan on low, and yes, it does work.

One possible mechanism is the (well-attested) phenomenon of perceptual set.
Ever buy a new refrigerator? For a week or so, you'll notice the sound every
time it turns on. After that, you'll never notice it again. A similar thing is
going on when you notice someone saying your name at a crowded party. Your
brain "tunes out" the background noise from the multiple conversations, but
when your name is mentioned, you're suddenly listening to that specific
conversation.

At one time I lived near busy railroad tracks. For a week or two, I was
getting blasted awake several times a night. After that? Didn't even hear 'em.

What may be going on is that the fan noise raises the background sound level
enough that minor, unpredictable sounds (wind, bugs hitting the window,
whatever) that would normally trigger alertness are enough below the ambient
sound threshold that your brain doesn't pay any attention to them.

------
fjfaase
In the past week, I have been using Mitch Altman's Brain Machine, which I
bought from him during SHA2017 in the Netherlands, and it seems it has
improveen my sleep (which was already quite good). It already has happened
several times that I felt asleep during the stimulation process (blinking LEDs
and binural beats on head phones).

Last week, I have felt much more relaxed in my thoughts, being able to
concentrate for long periods without feeling the urge to visit social media or
check my email. Maybe the fact that I returned to work from a frustrating
vacation during which I made some important resolutions with respect to social
media, also played some role. But being able to break some habits that I have
been struggling with for decennia is nevertheless a significant event.

~~~
rjzzleep
That's odd, I couldn't for the life of it fall asleep with a headphone near
me. I bought one of the Mitch's machines(the neurodreamer) in the past, but I
can't possible imagine how someone can fall asleep with a blue blinking LED in
their face. Maybe I'm just a little to sensitive but I figured maybe something
a little more subtle might make sense.

~~~
tomxor
> I can't possible imagine how someone can fall asleep with a blue blinking
> LED in their face.

They appear to be red... Sounds pedantic but there is a big difference if we
are talking about sleep.

------
joveian
For those looking for noise gen options, sox can be used to get a variety of
fairly complex noise sounds. I tried a bunch of things based on an old blog
post [0] with a bunch of helpful comments and the Reddit thread linked from
there [1]. I like:

play -n -n --combine merge synth brownnoise synth pinknoise mix band -n 1200
1800 tremolo 50 10 tremolo 0.14 70 tremolo 0.2 50 flanger 4 2 95 50 fade h 2

There is also this clever Star Trek style noise (from the Reddit post):

play -n -c 2 synth whitenoise lowpass -1 120 lowpass -1 120 lowpass -1 120
gain +14 fade h 1

[0]
[http://unreasonable.org/white_noise_generator_with_sox_for_L...](http://unreasonable.org/white_noise_generator_with_sox_for_Linux)

[1]
[https://www.reddit.com/r/scifi/comments/n7q5x/want_to_preten...](https://www.reddit.com/r/scifi/comments/n7q5x/want_to_pretend_you_are_aboard_the_enterprise_for/c36xkjx/)

------
resoluteteeth
Other people have complained about the number of participants, but that isn't
the issue (it was run as a crossover study, so 13 participants should probably
be fine).

The issue is that despite purporting to test fancy pink noise synchronized
with brain activity, the control treatment was _no noise_ rather than
_unsynchronized pink noise_. That means that it's impossible to tell whether
the synchronized noise was more effective than normal pink noise would have
been (or even possibly just earplugs, although it looks like the earphones
they used do a decent job of blocking noise:
[https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0046H8ZHS](https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0046H8ZHS)
).

~~~
joveian
Also worth noting: as someone with a serious sleep disorder (non-24 hour
circadian rhythm), I've found that there are a lot of things that affect sleep
quite strongly the first night and much less shortly after. The effect often
disappears entirely quite quickly.

------
Arun2009
Here is the original article if anyone wants to take a look: Acoustic
Enhancement of Sleep Slow Oscillations and Concomitant Memory Improvement in
Older Adults:
[https://www.researchgate.net/publication/314295073_Acoustic_...](https://www.researchgate.net/publication/314295073_Acoustic_Enhancement_of_Sleep_Slow_Oscillations_and_Concomitant_Memory_Improvement_in_Older_Adults)

------
xchip
«enhance», the article won't say how much though.

~~~
mdekkers
_the article won 't say how much though._

Did you read TFA? _" However, the average improvement was three times larger
after pink-noise stimulation."_

~~~
fjfaase
Three times larger than "a few percent". So, somewhere between three and six
percent, I guess. Meaning that if the test set consisted of 20 items, they
remembered on average one more.

~~~
mirekrusin
And the study had 13 participants. They did two runs one with the snake-oil
noise and one without. Can you even call it a study? With such a small numbers
the study can show any random thing you want, from reducing feet odour to
increasing yawn count. Even if it worked it's poorly designed because it
assumes that the benefits fade away, ie. are not present on the 2nd day. Would
be probably better to split them half and give stimulation then sham and for
other half other way around (tip. don't split one senior in half!).

------
bitL
Interesting. From my own experiments a pair of soft earplugs and night
blinders on eyes does the trick for me. Sometimes when I am under massive
stress, adding a winter cap helps a lot to get wonderful quality sleep.

------
oh_sigh
A coincidence for me seeing this article...I'm staying at an Airbnb next to a
somewhat busy street, so I slept with a pink noise app on last night and I had
some of the most vivid dreams I can remember

~~~
sogen
Hey me too! I used an app called Pzizz

~~~
oh_sigh
I used "pink noise" on Android, with a logo somewhat like a human tongue.
Super simple but it avoided a subtle clicking sound that repeated on a tone
generator app I downloaded. I'll check out pzizz as well, thanks!

------
sandGorgon
will this work with any pink noise apps ? or is this a new thing where
"synchronization" that is needed?

~~~
transverse
Yes, it should work but make sure the app is genuine. Really though, even a
table fan works.

~~~
sandGorgon
What do you mean by genuine? Any recommendations on Android?

~~~
setzer22
I don't know what he meant by legit, but some white noise videos on youtube
feature jumpscares after a while. These are specially bad on people with
cardiovascular issues and/or elderly. Always be careful before any kind of
meditation-like video.

------
winter_blue
This reminded me of [https://rain.today](https://rain.today)

------
pella
for self test:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WJ9Go1PnAVA&list=RDWJ9Go1PnA...](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WJ9Go1PnAVA&list=RDWJ9Go1PnAVA)

------
sahin-boydas
what is the that lady using in the video?

------
xchip
If articles like this make it to HN... maybe it's time to start selling
homeopathic snake oil...

------
tw1010
I have such déjà vu about this article. The weirdest part is that it feels
like the reason it is familiar is because I had a dream about it once.

