
Is Government a Data Wholesaler or Retailer? - cjoh
http://sunlightlabs.com/blog/2009/08/14/wholesalers-vs-retailers/
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hristov
I don't agree. First of all, the analogy with Costco is false. Data is free to
copy (esp. govt data which should not be subject to copyright) and very cheap
to store and transport. So no it is not at all analogous to crates of toilet
paper or tubs of mayonnaise.

Secondly, if we adopt the proposed solution we get a situation very ripe for
corruption and rent seeking. What you will get is the government creating data
in some bizarre and byzantine format which only one or two companies can
decipher, and those companies will sell better organized data at very high
prices and in very limited way.

This is already happening now, btw. All laws and published court decisions are
supposed to be public knowledge and available for free. But the government
does not have an efficient system to publish them. Therefore, two companies
(Lexis and Westlaw) publish these on-line and charge people enormous amounts
of money so that they can merely find out what the laws of their own country
are.

Simialar things are happening in other spheres, where people are paying a lot
of money for supposedly public information.

So, no, the government should try to make public information accessible to all
citizens. Of course it should also provide data in bulk to anyone that wants
it, but that does not release them from their duty to make the information
accessible to the average citizen.

~~~
calambrac
You're completely missing the point. Like, by a lot, to the point where I'm
pretty sure you're trolling, but I'll bite anyways.

 _First of all, the analogy with Costco is false. Data is free to copy (esp.
govt data which should not be subject to copyright) and very cheap to store
and transport._

Data is only cheap to copy when it's, you know, available to be copied. The
whole point of the article is that it currently isn't, but is instead buried
in small sites that focus on presentation and analysis. That's the analogy
that you seem to have completely missed - the government should act like
Costco, making their data available in bulk, but instead, they act like
bodegas, giving little snippets.

 _What you will get is the government creating data in some bizarre and
byzantine format which only one or two companies can decipher._... _This is
already happening now_

You act as if accessible data standards aren't a part of what the open
government movement is lobbying for. Why, exactly, do you think someone who
wants data to be more commonly available would stop and be happy if it were
only made available in some obscure proprietary format?

 _That does not release them from their duty to make the information
accessible to the average citizen._

The article specifically says that we're talking about priorities, that the
warehouse needs to come first. As for "their duty to make information
accessible to the average citizen", isn't it great how often that currently
comes with a healthy dose of political spin? I know I trust every little chart
the government's handing me.

~~~
hristov
" That's the analogy that you seem to have completely missed - the government
should act like Costco, making their data available in bulk, but instead, they
act like bodegas, giving little snippets."

Is that really the problem? If that is the problem, one can easily write an
app that gathers a lot of these little snippets and assembles them in any way
one wants. In fact that would be easier, than writing a bunch of articles and
trying to change how the government does things. Or is the problem that the
government wants to provide data to the target user directly and somebody else
wants to be the middle man.

"You act as if accessible data standards aren't a part of what the open
government movement is lobbying for."

That article did not mention anything about accessible data standards. It also
did not mention the "open government movement" at all. Hey if there is
something called an "open government movement" and it wants accessible data
standards more power to them (especially if "accessible" means open and not
"accessible for a fee"). But again, I don't know why this is relevant as
neither was mentioned by the article.

"Why, exactly, do you think someone who wants data to be more commonly
available would stop and be happy if it were only made available in some
obscure proprietary format?"

Well, here is an example, that someone might not want data to be more commonly
available to everyone, they might want data to be more commonly available to
them and not to everyone else so that they can insert themselves as a middle
man between the data provider (government) and the data consumer. This is the
only way the Costco analogy of the original article actually makes sense.

"The article specifically says that we're talking about priorities, that the
warehouse needs to come first."

Yes of course the warehouse needs to come first. And then, if you are good
middleman and know how to deal with government you can ensure that nothing of
much importance comes later.

I don't know, maybe I am cynical. Maybe these guys really care for
transparency and want government to start releasing data in bulk so that as
much data as possible gets released as cheaply as possible. So maybe I am
wrong.

Then again maybe not. If you wanted open government above all you would not
mind much about exactly what format the data came in.

And the fact that you just flamed me and accused me of trolling out of the
blue, makes me even more doubtful the motives of the original article's
drafter are honest.

~~~
calambrac
If you're going to be sensitive about being called a troll, you should stop
acting like one.

It would have taken you 30 seconds to click the 'About Us' link at the top of
the page and learn that Sunlight Labs is "an open source development team that
builds technology to make government more transparent and accountable."
Instead, you chose to come up with an insane conspiracy theory.

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dougp
This is dead on. It is hard to even play devil's advocate against this.

------
aditya
The real problem is government paying lip service to opening up data and
giving people access to it. NYC Big Apps is possibly a step in the right
direction:

 _Approximately 80 data sets from across 32 City agencies and commissions may
be made available on NYC.gov, including such categories as citywide events,
property records and sales information, recreational facility directories and
restaurant inspection information._

But, we'll know when we see the actual data not some press-release... Also,
where is the really useful data including health, and transit? I almost wish
there was a federal standard of some sort.

