
The Arctic Suicides: It's Not the Dark That Kills You - pmcpinto
http://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2016/04/21/474847921/the-arctic-suicides-its-not-the-dark-that-kills-you
======
exDM69
I live 60 degrees northern latitude in a country with bad suicide statistics
and the winters do get pretty harsh on you mentally. And there's still
millions of people living norther than I do.

Highest suicide rates occur during the spring, around the vernal equinox not
around the darkest time of the year. If you've never experienced the northern
spring where each day is 10+ minutes longer than the previous, you'll never
understand it. It just fucks up your mind in ways that are hard to describe.

My kitchen psychology thinks the high suicide rates in the spring may be
related to the fact that people around you start to get more positive and
active (some too much so) but if you're suffering from a bad depression,
seeing that around you will make it worse.

It's not just suicides that peak. It also affects breakup/divorce rates as
well as forming new relationships. It probably affects professional careers
too, but I don't know if there are stats about it.

The long, dark winters and the rapid change that follows brings out some very
primal sides. That being said, I'd recommend travel to the extreme latitudes
around the solstices, both of them.

side note: we have about 15 hour long days at the moment. It's still pretty
dark at night but I can't wait for the summer when you can see the sunset and
sunrise at the same time if you look to the north at around midnight... it's
magical.

~~~
warfangle
When people are really depressed, they don't kill themselves. Because they
have no energy to.

Once they go on antidepressants, they go on suicide watch. It's the most
dangerous time. Because they'll still be depressed, but they'll finally have
the energy to get up. And they just might have the energy to do themselves in.

~~~
ekianjo
> Once they go on antidepressants, they go on suicide watch. It's the most
> dangerous time. Because they'll still be depressed, but they'll finally have
> the energy to get up. And they just might have the energy to do themselves
> in.

Not sure if you can really generalize this much. There are several studies
studying the effect of antidepressants on suicide rates, and it's true that
some of them seem to lead to more suicides but it's far from being something
that you can categorize like that.

I'd also wager there are lots of suicides that could be avoided if people got
the medical attention they needed on time.

It's not all black and white.

~~~
Devthrowaway80
Warfangle is correct, I was warned specifically about this when I started
treatment. When you go on an SSRI, your fatigue lifts before your mood does,
which can lead to a few dangerous weeks.

~~~
Kristine1975
Can confirm, "my" SNRI's package insert (it is about one meter long, in small
print) warns that when starting treatment there's an increased risk of
suicidal thoughts/suicide, especially in people under 25.

Fun fact: The package insert also states: " _It isn 't completely clear how
antidepressants work,_ but they can help increase the Serotonin and
Noradrenaline levels in the brain." Very confidence-inspiring :-/

~~~
ekianjo
> Fun fact: The package insert also states: "It isn't completely clear how
> antidepressants work, but they can help increase the Serotonin and
> Noradrenaline levels in the brain." Very confidence-inspiring :-/

Well at least it's fair. The chemistry of the brain is still very poorly
understood.

Note that many drugs were discovered to have effects before we knew HOW to
explain why they work.

------
julianpye
I love, love, love Greenland. Best place I have ever been to. When I was
spending time in Tasiilaq, I was told that the breakdown happened because of
the fallout from the Greenpeace activities against seal clubbing in Canada.
This destroyed the market for fur products and led to social welfare from
Denmark and alcoholism.

Anyway, when in Greenland it is politically correct to eat seal and whale,
once you find out how they are hunted and how the population cherishes the
animals.

The coolest thing about Greenland was that the museums had no tools for
warfare. Conflicts between people in Greenland were carried out by people
playing drums and 'rapping' their cause in a song duel. If you had the laughs
and opinions on your side, the person who 'lost' received sled dogs and food
and was let go. I wish this could be used for all conflicts around the world.

~~~
Symbiote
Seeking whale meat to tourists is completely against the spirit of subsistence
whaling, and the reason Greenland lost its official whaling quota in 2013.

I'm thinking of visiting, but there's no way I'll be eating whale.

~~~
julianpye
In rural areas when you get invited, often there is nothing else to eat. You
don't get a menu. Most days you eat Seal (cooked for 5 hours). No side
veggies. No spices.

I do know that there were restaurants in Nuuk and Ilulissat selling whale meat
on the menu. I guess mostly to Japanese customers, if you know the popularity
of restaurants in Osaka or Tokyo selling whale meat. That is of course against
the conditions of Aboriginal Subsistence Whaling.

------
sevenless
The section talking about contagion was interesting. What follows is pure
speculation on my part and a bit of a ramble.

I believe many mental illnesses, depression, suicidal behavior and anorexia
among them, can be characterized as contagious. And perhaps some other things
that aren't usually described as mental illnesses. The border between belief,
religion and mental illness seems a bit fuzzy (echoes of Snow Crash). Small
isolated communities must be much more susceptible to contagion taking hold,
as single events have a great sway over perceptions, and there are few
connections with a larger world to normalize things.

Charles Stross said something about the internet that stuck with me: "the
accidental invention of telepathy". Just like public water supplies opened up
new vectors for diseases such as cholera, I wonder if the internet's ability
to more or less put minds directly in touch can facilitate the spread of
certain mental illnesses. Consuming unfiltered internet might be looked on in
a few years like drinking unsterilized water. In particular, I wonder if
certain "echo chamber" social websites that allow easy isolation from
mainstream opinion (Tumblr and 4chan, I'm looking at _you_ ) might be
analogous to these dangerous isolated communities.

~~~
simonswords82
This is a very interesting thought process. Tumblr and 4chan in my mind are
extreme examples of the unsterilised Internet you refer to....

> Consuming unfiltered internet might be looked on in a few years like
> drinking unsterilized water

For the last year or so I've decided to avoid news outlets as much as
possible. So I've updated my Reddit subscriptions to remove anything that
might be a news channel, I no longer frequent the BBC news website, and avoid
newspapers and TV news as best I can.

The constant fear mongering and general bad news is at times overwhelming but
oftentimes just unnecessarily miserable (IMO). It's like being given a long
list of problems you can't do anything about. So I've decided to simply switch
it off.

I would much prefer your approach where my news could somehow be "sterilised",
taking out anything that is overtly negative leaving only factual stories
(e.g. business, technology and so on).

~~~
onetimePete
I have my very own opinion on people who refuse to perceive the reality of the
human mind.

If one has trapped himself in such a bubble, he/she is unfit to really
communicate with other human beings, lead endeavor of complex composed groups
and manage endeavors going into crisis situations. Please, if you ever form a
team, state your perception of the species ahead of time, so people know what
they are in for. The negative is a building block of reality, it has to be
seen, it has to be handled, worked with, contained and used. One should not
work as director if one is unable to communicate and take the company of for
example bipolar people. Please don't take this as a insult. I just think your
way of not viewing the world is dangerous and should be made obvious via
disclaimer. Which in a way you have made with this post, so please do this in
future conversations.

Regards.

------
wille92
Whenever I read about tribal communities coming into modernity, I can't help
but think that our "first-world" culture gets a lot wrong. These communities
seem to have a deep sense of narrative--you're a part of a greater cultural
story, a spiritual story that's connected with place, nature, and family.
There is a journey laid out for you rich with sacrament (e.g. the rite of
passage to become an Inuit hunter in this article). I can't help but feel that
the modern world has lost this purposeful way of life. In the modern world,
we're really left up to our own devices to figure out where we fit in and what
we find meaningful. Would love to hear other's thoughts.

~~~
squeaky-clean
I recently read Sapiens by Yuval Harari, and this is a recurring theme in the
book. "Collective fictions" throughout human history, the different forms of
these myths, and how they help a society grow, or need to change as one does
grow.

One sort of related example is local religions versus universal, missionary
religions. The majority of religions in history have been local and exclusive.
Deities such as nature/animal spirits and the like, other tribes may have
their own spirits in their own regions, and there is no need to convert people
outside of your regions. But the most successful religions are ones are
universal and missionary; they believe that their religion is affects
everyone, regardless of whether they believe it (and is often the only true
religion), and that for some reason, it is beneficial to convert others to
your religion.

Ideas like money, capitalism, art, really anything not essential to the
biology of humans, are such "fictions", and the most successful (from any
evolutionary standpoint) societies are the ones that have or adapt the most
effective "fictions" for their societies. I guess to put it in HN terms, "how
scalable are your beliefs?"

A lot of the old ways we've lost touch with, or never had, aren't helpful to
modern society. A hunting trip in which you become a man doesn't amount to
much in a society with mega-farms, slaughter mills and processed foods that
don't expire immediately. Instead, our equivalent goals would be like "get a
degree, get another degree, get a job". You're an adult when you're old enough
to vote, and so on.

There's a lot of other topics as well, but that's what stuck with me the most
and my interpretation of it. It's fascinating to think about.

~~~
mikhailfranco
The Romans conquered many peoples with different local myths, but they
incorporated them into the empire by mapping the local deities to their
Olympian canon, forming joint entities as targets of worship and devotion.
This seems to be a tolerant and scalable approach, given a universe of various
polytheisms based on nature, which helps ensure a viable mapping exists.

Monotheism has a lot to answer for. It began with Judaism, which has a certain
exclusivity, but does not take the missionary position of universal adoption
and conversion. It is surely the descendants, Christianity and Islam, where
the polarizing missionary zeal of crusade and jihad has caused a lot of
trouble. While many religions practice ostracism for the non-believer, only
Islam insists on death to the apostate, who is seen as a traitor by
definition, even without any further subversive or mutinous action.

Unfortunately, the doctrinaire and totalitarian proselytizing religions seem
to have been quite scalable and successful. The Reformation and the
Enlightenment have successfully turned back the tide of Catholicism in the
West, but the challenge to Islam has yet to really get started.

Given the exploding demographics of the relevant parts of south Asia, Middle
East and Africa, that future struggle gets harder by the hour. Indeed, it is
the intensive demographic success of the subjugation of women and the
rejection of contraception that has propelled these expansive conquering
religions through history. It seems very likely that Japan and Russia will
decline in population (no immigration), Europe will be Islamized and North
America will be (re-)Hispanized with Catholicism.

The Reformed and Enlightened might have liberated themselves into an
evolutionary dead-end of personal choice, free from enslavement by community
propaganda and intimidation, but ultimately just a fleeting moment of liberty
before the incoming tide of ruthless and fertile monotheists.

------
dirktheman
Fascinating long read, which gives a lot of insight in the struggles of daily
life in these remote parts of our world.

And no, it's not just the dark that makes people commit suicide. Of the top 10
countries with the highest suicide rates, only Lithuania can be considered as
having a somewhat gloomy winter. The rest of the countries all get more
sunlight (Guyana, Suriname and Sri Lanka for instance) than the countries
generally accepted as happiest in the world: Denmark (ironically, considering
the story), Switzerland, Iceland and Norway.

~~~
Aaargh20318
> Fascinating long read, which gives a lot of insight in the struggles of
> daily life in these remote parts of our world

I find articles like this highly annoying. I see the headline, think "if it's
not the darkness, I wonder what is" and click the link expecting to find the
answer. Instead of the answer, however, I get a fluffy human-interest piece
that I simply do not care about.

How about we stop with crap like this, I don't need to hear a story, just the
facts please. I've wasted several minutes on this story and still have no clue
what the real reason is.

~~~
dirktheman
To be fair, the title doesn't say it will tell you why the suicide rate in
Greenland is so high...

Fact is, it isn't completely clear why the rate is so high. Rapid
modernization, decades of Danish control, a disappearing culture/way of life
and lack of mental health facilities can all be named as factors.

Sorry were annoyed and feel like you've wasted your time on a well written,
well researched human interest piece. And yes, sometimes you need to know just
the bare facts. But do you really have to know the reasons behind the high
suicide rate in Greenland? Or were you triggered by the headline? In that case
a human interest story conveys the message a lot better than just the numbers.
To me, Hacker News is about triggering curiosity about things that were
previously unknown by me. Stories like these remind me that there is a world
beyond choosing if I want soy milk or regular milk in my mochachino.

But hey, let me save you a couple of minutes:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_in_Greenland#Reasons](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_in_Greenland#Reasons)

~~~
thaumasiotes
Suicidal ideation (as well as completed suicide, of course) is known to be
higher in the indigenous peoples of Canada than in the white population. I
have seen it advanced that the eskimo tradition of suicide by walking out into
the wilderness if you're a burden on your family probably has something to do
with this.

This is mildly in conflict with the finding that there's more suicide in
Greenland in summer than in winter, but worth considering.

~~~
dagw
_This is mildly in conflict with the finding that there 's more suicide in
Greenland in summer than in winter, but worth considering._

I've seen some theories that people in general don't commit suicide while
under active hardship, but after the hardship lets up a bit and they have time
to reflect on it.

Also relative hardship is far more important than absolute hardship. During
the winter everybody is a bit miserable and under the weather so you don't
stick out so much. When the summer comes and everybody but you cheer up the
contrast becomes a lot more noticeable.

~~~
thaumasiotes
> I've seen some theories that people in general don't commit suicide while
> under active hardship, but after the hardship lets up a bit and they have
> time to reflect on it.

When suicide is driven by an established tradition of leaving _so that your
family doesn 't starve_, you really expect it to occur in winter. By the time
the hardship is gone, so is the justification for suicide.

------
cperciva
When I saw the title I thought this was going to be about Canada. Suicide
rates are extremely high in some aboriginal communities; in Attawapiskat for
example, 5% of the residents have attempted suicide in the past year.

And I can't say that I really blame them. Attawapiskat is an extremely
isolated community, with few jobs and no amenities. Kids growing up in
Attawapiskat have nothing to look forward to. Those who leave the community
have much lower rates of suicide, but given the memories of children being
taken away from their families and forced into abusive residential schools, no
politician in their right mind would dare to suggest that as an option. So
they live out their lives in miserable isolation, waiting for their boredom to
end; and some decide to speed along the process.

~~~
toyg
_> Attawapiskat is an extremely isolated community, with few jobs and no
amenities._

Thing is, like the towns in the post, these have _always_ been "isolated
communities with few jobs", but they used to be somewhat content. The
difference is that they (like everyone else) are now bombarded with very
powerful messages about rich and successful white people living in the Big
City. They are basically getting constantly shamed for doing what their
ancestors have done for generations. Those same powers of connectedness that
can be so positive in certain cases (e.g. alienated small-town geeks finding
accepting communities elsewhere) can often turn out to be trojan horses for
cultural shaming.

~~~
dopeboy
This is a very powerful point. The proliferation and ease of access to media
has made it orders of magnitude easier to compare oneself against others. And
it's not the "average" that make it into the media (usually) but the rich and
successful as you mention.

This is something I struggle with because a big reason why I've managed to do
somewhat well in school and in my early career is because of being competitive
and using comparison to fuel my work ethic.

As an entrepreneur, I've come to realize I can't persist that mindset. There's
always going to be people raising money and getting acquired. I have to filter
that noise out and focus on building something that people want.

------
gumby
I was struck by the comment by the woman who answered the suicide line: "Maybe
I am giving them a little love."

I spent years answering the phone on a crisis line. Some people's problems
just didn't seem that bad, yet they were overwhelmed nonetheless. Some people
had such crushing burdens I was astonished they could even talk.

I didn't find it uplifting, in fact it drained me. I am astonished by her
ability to do it for almost 20 years. I guess it was a form of catharsis for
her as well.

~~~
brndn
Where did you do this? Is there a high demand for volunteers? Is it easy to
get started with? Is it common to do this work "remotely" or "on-call" by
carry around a cell phone?

~~~
gumby
I did this in Boston back in the 1980s. At that time there was a shortage, but
nevertheless they screened us and trained us and provided support services to
us. No mobile phones; I would go there two evenings a week (we were all
volunteers).

I did this first at my school, MIT (which didn't thank goodness, get suicide
calls when I was there though there were suicides and we did get calls about
the consequences) and later for the Boston area, where we did get actual
suicide calls. I recently learned that MIT had shut down the service -- I
don't know why.

If you're interested just look on the web for suicide prevention hotline and
you'll find the name of an organization in your area. I don't if they still
use volunteers or what these days. My experience is 30 years old.

~~~
brndn
Thanks for the info. It is something I have wanted to look into.

------
Kristine1975
The novel "Smilla's Sense of Snow" by Peter Høeg is in large part about the
alienation and culture shock of an Inuit woman in Denmark.

P.S: I like the article's side bar about responsible reporting on suicide.
That's forgotten far too often in the rush for gripping headlines and clicks.

~~~
ridgeguy
I'll second "Smilla's Sense of Snow" as both a good read and a portal to some
insight on issues in the NPR article.

------
Overtonwindow
This reminds me so much of Native American communities in America. Loss of
culture, feelings of no hope, no jobs, no opportunities, it's one of the worst
feelings to have. When there's nothing else to do, and no hope of things
getting better, suicide seems like the easy option.

Very good article.

------
e12e
As someone who grew up in Tromsø, Norway (69 degrees northern latitude), I've
always found the idea that long winters and depression go together a strange
one (That's not to say there aren't a lot of people in Tromsø that struggle
with sleep[1], or that there are no winter depressions).

As a counterpoint to this article's _title_ (but not content, really), there
was an interesting piece a while back about seasons and psyche:

[http://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2015/07/the-
norweg...](http://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2015/07/the-norwegian-
town-where-the-sun-doesnt-rise/396746/)

TL;DR: Mindset matters. If you don't like winter, then a long dark winter
isn't much fun: "The survey results indicated that wintertime mindset may
indeed play a role in mental health and well-being in Norway. The Wintertime
Mindset Scale had strong positive correlations with every measure of well-
being we examined, including the Satisfaction with Life Scale (a widely used
survey that measures general life satisfaction), and the Personal Growth
Composite (a scale that measures openness to new challenges). The people who
had a positive wintertime mindset, in other words, tended to be the same
people who were highly satisfied with their lives and who pursued personal
growth."

[1] On a somewhat related note, I highly recommend the Norwegian original film
"Insomnia" (the basis for the American remake with Al Pacino):
[http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0119375/](http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0119375/)

------
brianzelip
Didn't read past them hopping in a boat w rifles, but the novel 'From the
Mouth of the Whale' by Icelandic author Sjón is a serious dive into an Arctic
psyche. Highly recommended.

[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/From_the_Mouth_of_the_Whale](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/From_the_Mouth_of_the_Whale)

------
andrewguenther
If you haven't read "The Tipping Point," it also talks about this same issue
and is all around a great read.

[https://amzn.com/0316346624](https://amzn.com/0316346624)

------
misalyogeshwar
I can't imagine how much hard work needed to put this story out to
people...great journalism.. Also I wish situation in greenland improves in
futurw...

------
stared
Just by looking at the title it brought to my mind "The Thing". ;)

See also this trailer, which I like a lot:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vwNoqgg474s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vwNoqgg474s)
(not the original movie, not the remake - but a StarCraft 2 mod allowing to
play a mafia/werewolf-style game).

------
golemotron
If you want to cut through the fluff search for "Why?" in the text of the
article. More articles should do this.

------
romanovcode
This is wrong and have nothing to do with "successful white people" and quite
frankly your remark is racist.

Their ancestors were hunters and this gave them purpose in life as well as
good diet which led to much happier life. Now they have nothing to do except
watch TV and sit on their couch and eat bad food. Of course they are unhappy,
you would be too.

~~~
toyg
Bad food and TV didn't materialise out of thin air, they are part and parcel
of that cultural bombing I was talking about.

I struggle to see how it's racist to admit that white people traditionally own
and define the mainstream culture of places like Denmark and Canada. You
cannot fix a problem if you don't admit you have one; the main problem here is
that modern mainstream white capitalist culture (to which I belong and
partake) might not necessarily suit all environments and all communities, and
we have to find ways around that.

EDIT: note that I don't have anything against "successful white people", I'm
just pointing out that our culture constantly sends out messages saying you
should be like (some of) them, which might not be the best course of action in
all situations. Zuck himself does not tell the media to glorify him, but they
do it anyway; he might not be the best role model for the average not-white,
not-male, not-Californian, not-Stanford-attending, not-programming-passionate
person though, and when a lot of these not-zuck-like people see the Zuck-
worshiping, they get a metaphorical kick in the teeth. Same for Hollywood
celebs and so on. This is what I meant.

~~~
haberman
I can't speak to the Danish and Canadian media, but the American media also
glorify Barack Obama, Malala Yousafzai, Amit Singhal, Russell Wilson, Chris
Rock, the Dalai Lama, Beyoncé, Bruno Mars, Prince, etc. Also the only major
motion picture depicting Zuck makes him look like kind of an asshole.

