

German Pirate Party enters its 4th and largest state - rmoriz
http://wahlarchiv.tagesschau.de/wahlen/2012-05-13-LT-DE-NW/index.shtml

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philippK
This is pretty important for the pirate party. Nordrhrein Westphalen is not
only the largest state by population. It is also very important politically
and economically. The pirates entering the state parliament at 8% will greatly
solidify their political base. This will give them a much needed boost when
gearing up for the general election in 2013.

Also Angela Merkel's CDU suffered a crushing defeat at only 26%, despite her
"heir apparent" Norbert Röttgen running in the state. The state will now be
governed by a leftwing coalition of SPD and greens. In all, this is a good day
for the national opposition in germany. Germany is shifting to the left, along
with the rest of europe.

~~~
leod
Saying that the modern SPD is leftwing is like saying that the Democrats in
the USA are leftwing.

~~~
philippK
Arguably. While it is true that the SPD has departed from its roots as a
socialist working class party they can still be considered "leftwing". I don't
want to go into too much detail here but Hannelore Kraft has run on a pretty
leftwing platform of social policy (offering free childcare, as but one
example).

When compared to american politics... pretty much every german party except
maybe the FDP can be considered "leftwing" or even "socialist".

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muyuu
Still disappointed that same old SPD+CDU take largely the lion's share of the
vote.

I mean... in a normal situation I'd consider these results very good progress,
but given the absolute havoc the EU is in, I'd expect a stronger reaction to
the status quo. But nope, the bipartisanship is rather solid still in Germany.

It takes Greece-style catastrophe to really shake things up, it seems.

~~~
muuh-gnu
> It takes Greece-style catastrophe to really shake things up, it seems.

Or more time. The pirates are growing, give them a few cycles. Considering
that they never were in a parliament in the first place, 8% is impressive. The
FDP, who have been existing for 60 years and have been parts of the goverment
countless times, also didnt manage to get more than 8%, so 8% is perfectly
fine. The greens are oscillating around 5% for 30 years now.

~~~
brazzy
Make no mistake - of those 8% at least half are protest voters who will vote
for whatever new party they see as anti-establishment. The pirates will lose
those when they first become part of a government and have to do compromises,
or when a newer anti-establishment party appears, whichever happens first. The
pirates may still grow a little, but then they will see a sharp drop in votes,
unless they can achieve some truly spectacular successes. How the deal with
that drop will determine whether they have long term viability.

~~~
Zirro
I feel said to say it, but this is exactly what happened with the Pirate Party
of Sweden when another certain controversial party started getting traction.
One could hope the situation turns out to be different in Germany, though.

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netrus
There will be a middle-left coalition of the social democrates and the green
party. The liberal party was able to recover after beeing down to 2% several
weeks ago.

The Pirates once again get the chance to work on their profile from the
opposition. This is a very good constellation for the Pirate Party.

~~~
philippK
where "liberal" in germany means something like "pro business". Very different
from the US.

~~~
phreeza
This has been a source of endless confusion for me in the past when discussing
politics with american friends. Took me surprisingly long to figure it out.

~~~
Joakal
Try this; socially liberal or fiscally liberal. There's also socially
authoritative and fiscally authoritative.

Liberal topics; social: allowing nudity, gay marriage, hacking, etc, fiscal:
lower taxes, less red tape, more corporate freedom.

Authoritative topics; social; outlawing nudity, gay marriage, hacking, etc,
fiscal: more taxes, more red tape, more corporate control.

It's not unusual for people to have hybrid positions. eg an person can believe
that hacking should be banned and believe in paying lower taxes.

Or a person believes hacking shouldn't be banned and believe in paying higher
taxes.

~~~
celer
Along with "more taxes, more red tape, more corporate control" one also sees
things like environmental regulations. Whether supporting environmental
regulations is liberal(I want the right to enjoy my back yard without smog
from his car and without sludge from your factory) or authoritative(so don't
pollute) is a topic that is up for debate, and shouldn't be lumped in with
"corporate freedom."

~~~
Joakal
I'm talking about government regulations in general. Environmental regulations
are, by definition, authoritative because the government enforces that law.
It's very hard to create laws, eg the right to enjoy backyard without smog, as
even people breath out pollution. It could be argued that by creating a law
prohibiting smog in your backyard, it's far more authoritative than a law to
regulate the levels of smog.

It doesn't mean that authoritative laws are bad, really. Some laws are mildly
authoritative (anti-littering) to heavily authoritative (anti-terrorism).
People's positions tend to be relative to the country they're in. For example,
a fiscal-centre-liberal person in USA could be seen as a fiscal-far-liberal
person in France.

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copx
German here, I don't get why non-Germans are so excited about the success of
the Pirate Party in Germany. It does not mean that Germans care strongly about
copyright and patent reform, quite the opposite is the case.

According to polls >70% of the Pirate Party voters are pure protest voters who
don't care what the party stands for. Well, except that they aren't Nazis or
socialists (the only other anti-establishment options). Most people don't care
about copyright laws at all, that's why the Pirate Party is a "safe" protest
vote.

~~~
morsch
Parties that are disparaged as being the beneficiary of protest votes tend to
shape the public discourse in terms of what people are protesting _agains_.
This has already happened, copyright reform is a much more visible topic now
than it used to be. I keep reading arguments I had on the internet 10 years
ago rehashed (sometimes badly) in respectable newspapers.

People are at least vaguely aware of the pirate party's position, as much as
there is one. If nothing else, I doubt people who are in favor of more
expansive copyright would vote PP. And arguably, any anti-establishment vote,
if you want to call it that way, is bound to be a vote in favor of copyright
reform.

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Apocryphon
I'm surprised that there hasn't been a movement on U.S. college campuses to
form Pirate Parties. Behind OWS and the Ron Paul phenomenon you'd think it'd
fit right in as a grassroots youth movement.

~~~
hej
What’s the perspective, though?

Mass protests (ala OWS) were never really a focus of the Pirate Party. They
were always about direct political participation (i.e. competing in
elections). That’s not so realistic in the US where majorities are necessary
to win seats and offices.

The Pirate Party very clearly represents a minority and has no realistic
perspective of ever representing a majority. They are also not very
geographically clustered. In democracies with proportional elections that’s
not so much an issue.

The Green Party in Germany very clearly also represents a minority and has no
realistic perspective of ever representing the majority, nevertheless it has
been phenomenally successful during the last decades, not only as a opposition
party but also as a party with government participation, both on the state and
federal level. (The Greens were Gerhard Schröder’s coalition partner on the
federal level.)

In the US, much of this has to happen inside existing parties with a realistic
perspective (consequently, parties in the US are quite a bit less organized
and there is much more fierce competition inside parties). Ron Paul tries to
be different within the pre-existing framework of the Republican Party. The
Tea Party Movement tries to be different within the pre-existing framework of
the Republican Party.

Also, remember that this is only happening in Germany. A very special set of
circumstances seems to have conspired there to create that success. This isn’t
even happening elsewhere in Europe (at least not yet), not even in countries
with political systems very similar to that in Germany. It seems like Germany
is the special case here, not so much other places.

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hej
That's largest as in most popoulos. 18 million of 82 million people. Federal
elections are next year, the party is currently polling well above 5%
nationwide, that's the required threshold for entering the parliament.

