
Can psychedelics make you a better person? - pmoriarty
http://www.philosophyforlife.org/can-psychedelics-make-you-a-better-person/
======
jrq
If I hadn't taken LSD, I never would've started my recovery from alcohol.
Nothing in my life is as valuable to me as my sobriety is and has been, and I
don't see myself ever making the painstaking effort to get sober without that
trip.

I don't want to turn this thread into a trip report, however I will share that
my trip led my thoughts to my last actions, some bad decisions and some bad
habits I had formed.

Real talk, I tripped my nuts off. Obviously.

But the real impact was during the several days after that, nothing seemed to
be the same, every little detail seemed laced with a new tinge of awareness,
and the drinking I was doing at the time suddenly revealed itself to me as
incredibly dangerous and unhealthy.

Now, LSD didn't work my program for me. It didn't get me sober, it didn't stop
my cravings, it didn't bring my family back or apologize to previous employers
or pay my tickets or talk to my mentors or any of that. It's not a wonder drug
by any means. I'm definitely no expert, but I think hailing lsd in particular
could have bad consequences for certain people. A trip can go south sometimes
if you're not meticulous and exerting some fortitude against your emotions
during the trip.

Also, who says I'm a better person? That's a hard thing to measure. I've done
a lot of awful things in my drunk past. Choosing better behavior doesn't make
the consequences of those things go away. Understanding who you are and who
you were doesn't magically wipe the slate clean for the old you. And that's
humbling, to go back and clean up all those messes and face those people with
the new knowledge and growth, but on behalf of the toxic person I was.

Anyways, LSD definitely changed my life for the better. I'd do it again in a
heartbeat. Honestly, most people would say I AM a better person now. But to
claim that as the effect of LSD is crazy. For people just wanting to justify
their psychedelic adventuring, give up on it. If you like to trip just for
fun, just accept it and do it. Be glad you're not hurting yourself!

~~~
alchemism
The entire Alcoholics Anonymous regimen is the result of the insights gained
on an LSD trip.

~~~
Denzel
Please don't spread unsubstantiated claims. You'll need to provide a source
for this claim.

This sounds genuinely interesting. However if it's not backed up by evidence
then you're just spreading misinformation.

~~~
alchemism
Here's a few links to explore further:

"This is some rare TV footage of LSD research conducted in Los Angeles in 1956
by Dr. Sidney Cohen, which included an interview with Gerald Heard, an Anglo-
Irish philospher who turned on a number of influential Americans in the 1950s.
Among them was AA co-founder Bill Wilson, who thought LSD could help some
drunks have a spiritual awakening. Wilson's first trip was in this very room
in summer of 1956 and was supervised by Dr. Cohen and guided by Mr. Heard. The
whole story, and much more, is told in "Distilled Spirits -- Getting High,
Then Sober, with a Famous Writer, a Forgotten Philosopher, and a Hopeless
Drunk" by Don Lattin, the author of the bestselling "The Harvard Psychedelic
Club." The "Famous Writer" in this blend of memoir and group biography is
Aldous Huxley, the author of "Brave New World" and "The Doors of Perception."

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XeO2BOdmkEg](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XeO2BOdmkEg)

and

[https://aabeyondbelief.org/2015/10/21/the-lsd-
experiments/](https://aabeyondbelief.org/2015/10/21/the-lsd-experiments/)

------
hashfunktion
For me, definitely. The first time I took psilocybin 22 years ago shaped my
views on consciousness, among other things, and led to profound personal
growth. I don’t think I would be where I am today without it.

------
n4r9
Bit of a meta comment, but I wonder why none of the ~30 posts here seem to
actually be discussing the article. Something about the subject that motivates
people to state personal opinions/experiences?

~~~
entwife
When the author said that Demeter was the goddess of corn, I nearly stopped
reading. Facts: Demeter was a goddess of grain and harvest. Ergot (Claviceps
species), and specifically ergot growing on rye (Secale cereale) has
psychoactive properties; this ergot is liekly the source of psychedelic
experience in the Elusinean Mysteries. Corn (Zea mays) was not introduced to
Europe until the Columbian exchange; the fungus that grown on corn (smut,
huitalacoche) is edible and not obviously psychoactive.

Whether psychedelic/unity experience makes one a better person, is an
interesting question. As, too, is the question the author asked in the second
half of essay, exploring the meaning of "better person" in relation to
contemporary Western and Shipibo Indian cultures.

~~~
TheCoelacanth
The author is from the UK, so they are probably using the British definition
of corn[1] which can refer to many different kinds of grain. Using that
definition of corn, the article doesn't seem to be inaccurate.

[1]
[https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/corn#Etymology_1](https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/corn#Etymology_1)

~~~
Nomentatus
Right, remember that when Middle English was around, the New World hadn't been
discovered, so the word definitely was not applied to maize originally. This
British usage still remains in place as far as I know. Those darned Brits -
you'd think they invented the language, the way they sling it around any way
they want!

~~~
dragonwriter
> Right, remember that when Middle English was around, the New World hadn't
> been discovered

Well, Middle English starts a couple centuries after the Norse settlement in
North America, so that's not strictly true, even with the implict “by
Europeans” restriction.

~~~
Nomentatus
Point taken, and worth noting, the English hadn't discovered the New World,
but other Europeans, including Portugal, had. But maize wasn't grown anything
like that far north!!! Maybe as far north as Missouri, where there were dense
populations, but not further. So, yes, it is strictly true that maize would be
unknown in England then.

But c'mon man, "the Oxford English Dictionary specifies the period of 1150 to
1500" so when the usage was established in England only Vikings had reached
the New World, in Newfoundland, etc.

~~~
dragonwriter
> So, yes, it is strictly true that maize would be unknown in England then.

Yes, it's strictly true that maize would (almost certainly) be unknown, just
not because North America hadn't been discovered by cultures in contact with
England prior to the point of time in question.

~~~
Nomentatus
You could simply have said "we now agree," I believe.

------
thebigspacefuck
Can? Sure. I've heard from plenty of people that feel that way.

Just to give an alternate perspective, I'm not sure doing 'shrooms at 16 made
me a better person. It definitely altered my perception of what is real, but
it wasn't a useful improvement. Mostly it just made me more prone to having
panic attacks. I think I _could_ be a better person today if I had never gone
through that door, at least at that point in my life. On the other hand, it's
hard to say whether it was the 'shrooms or not, as many of the terrifying
existential questions it drove in me are thoughts that can be found elsewhere.
I'd like to try them again sometime, just a few, to test the waters, but I'm
also somewhat terrified of the consequences if my reality is shaken too much
at this point in my life. So it goes.

~~~
Tomminn
The idea of taking psychedelics at 16 terrifies me. I believe pretty strongly
that psychedelics are best once you've already tried pretty hard at the
classical life script. Only then will you be able to see it's actual
weaknesses and it's actual strengths.

I would not advise anyone much below 25 to take em, and I was very grateful I
was scared into not taking them until my early-mid twenties.

------
arca_vorago
ctrl+f ego... no hits? I've never done a psychedelic other than a very
spiritual moment with salvia divinorum, but I have read up on them
extensively, (they are often touted to help with ptsd), and the one major
common factor is their ego-busting nature.

Ego is a good thing in many ways, but due to societal and cultural
strangeness, it is sometimes warped into overdrive (arrogance, etc) and
sometimes too puny (low self-esteem, etc). Psychedelics seem like a path to
showing you just how big... and small... you are in the universe.

That said, I have two warnings about this subject. First, I personally think
synthetic psychedelics are potentially the most dangerous, which is why
(especially after finding out it's CIA origins) I never intend to do LSD, for
example. Second, these are things that my native-american brothers tell me
_must_ be done as a spiritual journey, and not as recreation. Those who
approach these powerful things recreationally are the most likely to have bad
trips.

~~~
AnIdiotOnTheNet
From my completely inexpert perspective, and keeping in mind I've never taken
any psychedelics, I'd guess that 'ego-busting' as you call it is almost
certainly the component of value here. Our traditional notions of self are
ridiculously naive and very poorly model reality, and I think working from
poor models of reality is part of why we suffer like we do, which leads us to
being worse people. Psychedelics allow people to more easily shift their
perspective and see the world differently, hopefully expanding their
conception of it and enlightening their understanding of their place within
it, but they are not the only way to do that.

~~~
thrwwy1
> Psychedelics allow people to more easily shift their perspective

This is a fairly accurate summary, from my personal experience.

Psychedelics help to partially peel back the immense layers of mental models
and perspectives that we slowly build up over the many years of our life.
These layers are usually fairly inscrutable -- most people don't think about
them much. As the mental model of one's self is perhaps the most deeply rooted
of them all, this process is how "ego death" occurs.

It is possible to gain some insight into our deeply rooted mental structures
through years of careful self-observation and/or meditation, but psychedelics
are an incredibly powerful tool for getting a different view of your own mind
in single day (integrating the experience takes much longer).

I should say, though, due to the sheer power and novelty of the experience, it
can feel as if the most simple thought is deeply profund -- so this is
something one has to watch out for, if they care about genuine insight.

Warning: Psychedelics should be used with great caution -- they are not toys,
and can cause significant harm if used improperly or under the wrong
conditions.

~~~
AnIdiotOnTheNet
> it can feel as if the most simple thought is deeply profund -- so this is
> something one has to watch out for, if they care about genuine insight.

Maybe I've gone off the deep end, but I think a lot of the deepest and most
meaningful truths I've realized are actually tautological. It's as though it's
all just one giant circle, you start with a simple tautological statement like
"it is what it is" and think it's silly, spend years thinking about,
observing, and modeling reality, and come to the profound conclusion that it
is indeed what it is. The only difference is that having walked the circle and
observed the statement from all sides you finally understand what it means.

I'm starting to wonder if all truths aren't tautologies. Take evolution: in
very simple form it could be stated as "Things that self-replicate self-
replicate. Things that are better at it are better at it".

------
srge
Psychedelics (LSD, shrooms) made me a better person.

I don’t know anyone who became less caring, less respectfull, more violent or
more greedy after doing those drugs.

I would argue that psychedelics make you more human, in the good sense of the
word.

~~~
bsenftner
I know of one guy, a brilliant man, who after a period of a month taking
shrooms practically every day had a personality shift that is easiest
described as "like Rick" from "Rick & Morty" \- he became convinced he was the
smartest man in the universe, dangerously smart and people would kill him if
they knew how incredibly smart he was. That attitude stayed with him, and
destroyed him; about a decade later he died due to alcohol poisoning as a
result of his overwhelming rejection by others from his elevated behavior
insisting his superiority over others. Clearly, he had original issues the
shrooms simply magnified out of his control.

~~~
hesdeadjim
I’m not going to bash on psychedelics, but there does seem to be a lot of
selection bias around the positive benefits of them. Like your example they
can, for some people, trigger an extreme expression of latent psychological
problems.

Of course the response is always to use them with guidance. Unfortunately here
your options are often limited to pseudo-religious practitioners who will
inadvertently prime you to have the same cliche experience most people in
those circles have.

It’s for these two reasons I have avoided psychedelics completely. If I could
have a guided experience from an agnostic and trained professional I would
consider trying them. I’m definitely hoping the goals MAPS has come to
fruition over the next few decades.

~~~
Giroflex
> If I could have a guided experience from an agnostic and trained
> professional I would consider trying them

That would be the dream.

I personally got curious about it and talked it over with a good friend and we
read a lot about LSD. After studying it a lot from the most credible possible
sources and reading arguments for both sides, we decided to try it
responsibly; a medium-high dose of 150ug, each on a bright lazy Saturday with
the other one sober through the whole trip.

It was very fun and mind-opening and I think it's an experience pretty much
everyone should have at least once in their lives. We have done it
recreationally a few more times since then (and alone with lower doses and
together with both tripping on lower doses) and it has been nothing but
positive things; it's exhilarating to discover the world in new ways.

I think it would be fantastic if we could have professional guiders and spaces
specifically designed for responsibly tripping. Not only is it fun, but I
believe it would lead to a healthier culture as it's not unusual in my
experience to see a lot of things wrong with our society and personal behavior
when looking at them from a different perspective.

I think it's really a shame that it's not possible due to the substance being
illegal (wrongly, IMHO).

------
acetoxy
4 months of working with ayahuasca with some of the best shamans in the amazon
cured my depression, anxiety and panic attacks. During that time I have seen
so many people get cured from all sorts of different issues. It's an amazing
medicine.

If you decide to do it, make sure you do some proper research on which centers
are good before you go.

~~~
arunix
For those wanting to go down this road, where do you even start?

~~~
cbluth
I have never taken ayahuasca, but I have seen many videos on youtube, and read
many articles about to understand the nature of an "ayahuasca shaman ritual",
as I might call it. I would start with diligent research, and you will
probably naturally discover the next steps "down this road" yourself. I
understand that the "sanctity" of ayahuasca is revered by many people that are
privy to it's "powers", and is not to be taken with any sort of cavalier
attitude, as one might see with other psychedelics.

~~~
eksemplar
Can YouTube videos be considered research? Are they build on empirical data
and peer reviewed?

Don’t get me wrong, go right a head and drink the funky tea, just don’t call
monetized experiences of random content producers “research”. If you do that,
then you’ll be telling me weed cures broken bones next, or warn me not to
vaccinate my children.

~~~
dahart
Yes, YouTube videos can be considered research, because that word itself does
not imply peer review. You may have misunderstood how the word research is
being used in this thread.

[https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/research](https://www.merriam-
webster.com/dictionary/research)

Definitions 1 "careful or dilligent search" and 3 "the collecting of
information about a particular subject" are the forms that were being used in
this thread. When @acetoxy suggested doing some research on which centers are
good, the idea was to get some info in advance, not to perform perform and
publish double blind peer reviewed studies of their effectiveness.

I feel like adding, only because it seems funny & totally apropos to this
thread & article on LSD, not to patronize you: try to open your mind to the
alternative possibilities.

~~~
eksemplar
I don’t think watching YouTube videos qualifify as gathering information, even
if it fits within the definition of the word research.

Feel free to do it though, and I take no offense if you disagree with me, but
I’d be careful trusting strangers on the internet, especially if you’re
considering going to South America to do drugs.

~~~
dahart
Sure, I totally agree one should be careful about their info & travel & drugs.
But, that's what both @acetoxy and @cbluth were already saying.

I assume what you meant to say is that you personally wouldn't trust YouTube
as a source of high quality or trustworthy information about drugs in South
America, because it's demonstrably and absolutely true that YouTube videos
contain information. Millions and millions of people successfully use YouTube
to share and gather information on a wide variety of topics.

If you actually wanted to help someone who's trying to be careful, perhaps
suggest some more trustworthy sources, or how to find them? What makes a book
or person or pamphlet or phone call or any other source any more trustworthy
than YouTube? Even if there were scientific research, what makes it
trustworthy? Peer reviewed papers are proven wrong all the time. How does one
go about being careful?

------
bluedino
There is so much introspective thinking going on when you do
mushrooms...you’re engrossed the next day in thinking about all the things you
discovered about yourself and who you are. Whether that makes you a better
person or not, I don’t know.

------
trisimix
Anything can make you a better person, depending on the type of person you
are. Personally I have panic disorder and would probably go full schizo.

------
selestify
It's a pity that research on MDMA was stopped due to the drug war.

~~~
empath75
Yeah just anecdotally, it did make me a better person. Not at first, but the
experience of being unequivically, obviously _happy_, for the first time in my
life, understanding that I was going to be okay, that I could just like talk
to people and make friends, and so on — even if it was mediated by drugs, made
me realize how much of my perception of how the world was, lived only inside
my head. Nothing about the world had changed, but suddenly it felt beautiful
and safe to me in a way that it never had before.

My perception of the world was obviously distorted in some way by the drug,
but my perception while sober was also distorted by a lifetime of traumatic
experiences that molded how I felt about myself and other people. I forged new
relationships with people, I cut off relationships with other people that were
bad for us both. It wasn’t an immediate change, I took years for me to dig
myself out of the hole that I was in— but I genuinely believe that mdma saved
my life.

And this was in a totally unregulated environment, where I pretty much
exclusively took it at raves and all the therapeutic talking sessions were
with random strangers on ecstasy that happened to be around when the mood to
talk struck me. I have to believe that a professional therapist would have
accelerated the process significantly.

~~~
slfnflctd
This was my experience as well, way back in the 90s-- it was like all the
'walls' dividing me from others came down.

I would add that another aspect which could have been helped by the presence
of a therapist is the comedown. I went from one of the most elated & connected
experiences of my entire life to one of the worst depressions, as I realized
that 95% of the good feelings were fading away and my walls were involuntarily
coming right back up. The only silver lining was the belief (which I still
hold) that at least parts of that connectedness could be revisited by being
more dedicated to cultivating moments where it was likely to occur.

------
Overtonwindow
I’ve never used them, but everyone I’ve met who has, has spoken along similar
lines that dropping acid opens up another part of your mind. So I think if it
does unlock another part of your mind, then absolutely it could make you a
better person.

“Doing LSD was one of the two or three most important things I have done in my
life." -Steve Jobs

~~~
adamsea
Based on the Walter Isaacson bio, acid didn’t seem to make Jobs a better
person, in terms of treating other people well, regardless of whatever else he
got from it.

------
HIPisTheAnswer
> There is a strong claim here that has never been tested: can psychedelics
> make you a better person?

Never been tested !? Is this person on drugs or something !? Ahahahaha!

But seriously, homo sapiens quite obviously happened from a collision of apes
with psychedelics (most probably psilocybin mushrooms)... So without
psychedelics there would never have been any people! Terrence McKenna very
thoroughly explained this theory many times. Its easy to find on faceboogle.
All his other theories are nowhere as solid as this one, imo.

On another note, drugs are foods, and different foods are good for some
people, in some situation, some of the time, at some dose. Finding those
perfect variables is the real trick. Opium, for me (and almost anyone I
believe), at a certain dosage, has tremendously improved my life, on all
levels - but if I increase the dosage even slightly or don't take enough
breaks, it begins to have negative repercussions. People who do endurance
sports are all craving endorphines. Marathon runners could preserve their
health by dosing opium properly. LSD is definitely a must-do for everyone, but
in the right settings. Nobody is driven insane by LSD - they had to _already_
be insane, and it would bring it out more (which is really the quickest path
to a cure). Iv met someone who cured acute autism with psilocybin. MDMA is
renowned for treating victims of PTSD. I mentioned opium - opium isnt (really)
a psychedelic but its certainly the most bewitched beneficial substance I know
of - very good for older people or alcoholics. It takes away all cravings for
alcohol, tobacco and coffee (3 most detrimental drugs on earth, with refined
sugar). But be careful not to increase your tolerance. I agree with Eliot in
MrRobot - you can take 30mg of morphine-equivalent per day forever and youll
be able to run out without waking up in the ninth circle of hell. Given the
choice I'd much rather incarnate a hardcore morphine user than a roaring
alcoholic; at least I'll still be able to have a successful career, a thriving
social circle and a very long life.

~~~
gnulinux
> Nobody is driven insane by LSD - they had to already be insane, and it would
> bring it out more

I really, really, don't want to write this because I'm a very drug friendly
person. I personally don't do drugs except alcohol (I know how horrible it is,
but I have anxiety problems) but I am ok with all sorts of drugs as long as
there is scientific evidence it improves your life.

Having said that, your quote up there is wrong, I know at least one datapoint.
In my freshman semester in Berkeley my roommates tripped with LSD (I was sober
and their sitter). Everything went well. However, the second time we did the
same thing unfortunately one of my roommates absolutely berzerk and did things
I cannot even begin to write here without getting banned. It involved
violence, nudity, disgusting human fluids, you name it... Cops were ultimately
involved since we couldn't stop him and he was about to harm himself by
harming strangers. He ended up fine because he didn't harm anyone, just
embarassed himself deeply. In fact, he had no repercussions other than having
to live with the fact that he did all that stuff.

Was this person insane in the first place? No, I lived 4 years of my life with
this guy and he was one of the smartest, most intelligent people I've ever
met. I don't know what it means to be "crazy" maybe he had psychological
problems inside his head, but as far as we know he didn't have such problems.
He went to a psychologist, but as far as we know, it was a fabrication to be
prescribed Ritalin and Adderall. So, overall, it did not seem like he had any
psychological problems.

His experience affected me really deeply. I never got to do drugs I wanted
(LSD and psilocybin).

I don't want to give the message that "LSD is bad". No LSD is probably an
awesome drug. But I really don't think "LSD can't make you crazy if you
weren't in the first place". It's probably 1 in a million chance, but not
impossible.

~~~
HIPisTheAnswer
> "LSD can't make you crazy if you weren't in the first place"

It can't. There have been some very good research done which show that the
society we currently live in is completely insane, which implies that almost
anyone living in this society is mad. I really enjoyed 'Characer analysis' by
Wilhelm Reich - very good stuff - in which he showed that the facist society
we live in has turned us against ourselves. LSD and its brothers will break
the 'emotional armor' that people have build up to supress their emotion to
survive the facism of their family/classroom/workplace. Releasing too much
emotion at once can very easily harm people. So I am not backing off my claim,
but I'll admit that since mose people are insane, LSD is potentially dangerous
for most people.

Did you friend have a very rich sexual life when the incident happend? I'm not
asking you to answer here obviously, but I'm almost certain he did not.

~~~
gnulinux
> Did you friend have a very rich sexual life when the incident happend? I'm
> not asking you to answer here obviously, but I'm almost certain he did not.

No I don't think he had sex before that incident. But how would that affect
his trip. As I wrote above, his first trip (which was about 6 months before
the second one) was really fun for him.

~~~
HIPisTheAnswer
You can read the book I mentioned, it's all in there.

------
vitro
For anybody interested in experimenting I recommend reading about LSD
microdosing as an alternative to high doses that make you trip. Look for James
Fadiman's research.

~~~
tree_of_item
"Research". Fadiman is a quack, there is no research in to "sub-perceptual"
dosing. It's the homeopathy of psychedelics. See [https://www.gwern.net/LSD-
microdosing#fadiman-comments](https://www.gwern.net/LSD-microdosing#fadiman-
comments)

The research actually being done is in "perceptual" low dose and high dose
psilocybin/MDMA and so on, where are the results so far are promising.

~~~
vitro
"Research" because it cannot be done officially as LSD is illegal, so he
relies on subjective reports of people who microdose, which cannot be precise
and standardized, of course. Have you tried it? What I can recommend to you is
to go and try it yourself, then tell me if it is homeopathy. Nothing can
replace your own experience.

~~~
tree_of_item
It doesn't matter if it's illegal. Psilocybin and MDMA are illegal but there's
research being done there.

Microdosing is homeopathy because of the emphasis on "sub-perceptual" doses.
There's no such thing, when it comes to psychedelics. You either perceive it,
or it didn't work. Fadiman could do blind testing to try to prove me wrong,
but he won't. Why not?

I'm sure there are lots of people who report "benefits" from microdosing, just
like there are lots of people who report benefits from energy crystals and
reiki.

Note that I'm not saying psychedelics are worthless for the things microdosing
claims to help with, just that you need to actually take an active dose to get
any of those benefits. 3ug of LSD is going to do jack shit.

~~~
goo
Homeopathy and 3% of a standard dose of one of world's strongest drugs are
very very different things.

Even setting aside the massive, proven, perceptual effect that placebos have
-- which means that if you do believe in homeopathy, it could actually have a
strong effect -- this is analogous to saying that a couple of sips of beer is
going to do "jack shit". It won't do much -- but your liver will still process
it, and it will provide some energy, and it will have a very mild affect on
your nervous system. Is a couple of sips of beer an "active dose"? What's an
active dose here?

In contrast with homeopathic solutions, which are diluted down to figures like
1 PPM (presumably a very very low % of what would be an "active dose" of its
chemical), this is a 3% dose we're talking about! It's intellectually
dishonest to assert that there would not be an effect on the nervous system at
that level, and it is a strange position to assume that because the effect on
the nervous system does not rise to obvious perception, that it has no effect
on the experience of the subject.

~~~
tree_of_item
Beer commonly comes in 8oz cans. 8oz is about 237mL, 3% of which is about 7mL.
I would absolutely say that 7mL of beer is going to do jack shit.

The experience of the subject is linked directly to obvious perception. If it
isn't affecting perception, it's not affecting experience! It could affect
other things, like your liver or whatever, but it really does need to affect
your perception in order to have the benefits people claim microdosing has,
which are all linked to moment-to-moment experience.

~~~
goo
I was basing my analogy on the idea that a standard dose of beer, for someone
drinking beer, is probably 2 12 oz. bottles of beer.

"If it isn't affecting perception, it's not affecting experience!" I think
this is the main point on which we disagree. I'm curious why you assert this
so strongly.

If we agree that there is an effect on the nervous system, then the question
is, at what point does that effect "matter". And you are saying that it only
matters at the point that the subject can detect the shift in their own
perception from baseline. You also argue that any purported benefits of the
substance are only realized as a result of the detection in this change of
state.

I can think of a few examples of cases where we would not be consciously aware
of a change from baseline, but would effect our experience. Do you need to be
aware of your change from baseline for the painkilling and pleasantness of
endorphins released after a mild walk to have an effect? Do you need to be
aware of your own difference from psychological baseline for the little bit
adrenaline released before an important meeting to have an effect on your
alertness?

Our recognition of our own perception is a fallible signal detector. There can
be effects on the nervous system that have effects on other systems,
regardless of whether the conscious mind detects a signal.

And if you agree with me so far, then the question is if the effect on the
nervous system and in turn its effects on other internal systems has any
therapeutic effect. That's a different discussion, I reckon. But unless a
requirement of all the purported therapeutic effect is that the subject has
consciously observed their altered perception, then it is possible for there
to be an effect on people's lives from sub-perceptual doses of chemicals. (for
example: non-psychoactive drugs, heavy metals, viruses, etc.)

------
INTPenis
In my experience no it can't. Only your own willpower can do that.

But it can make you see things you were not seeing, or refusing to see before.

------
andrei_says_
Not sure if they can make you a better person but I’m fairly certain they can
help you know the difference.

Seeing the reality of who you are (or closer to the reality of who you are)
can potentially propel you toward making changes.

------
vixen99
Be interesting to see the stats that might indicate some kind of rational
answer for this question. Personal anecdotes, interesting though they may be,
are irrelevant.

------
mottosso
Can they also make you a worse person?

~~~
hsljekskfh
i’m a moderately anxious person that grew up around people who were really ok
with psychedelic use. i did it in college with pretty much no baggage going
in... multiple times... i’ve basically never had a positive experience, and
i’ve had two really bad trips that i kept getting flashbacks to in the months
after. i got over both eventually.

to me acid, peyote and mushrooms just make you feel kinda sick, maybe giddy
for a while and you see weird stuff. by the end you always want to go back to
normal before it’s done, or at least i did. that’s why they’re not addictive
usually

------
zaro
Definitely yes!

------
ilackarms
ibogaine

------
mr_spothawk
yes.

~~~
ryanlol
Can? Yes. Will? _Maaybe._

------
lumberjack
Is you need drugs to become more open minded and empathetic, the source of the
problem is your upbringing, and by proxy the culture. The contemporary liberal
western culture actively works towards shaping us into selfish materialistic
consumerist narrow minded soulless beings. Half a trillion dollars per year go
towards this effort, and the solution is start drugging ourselves with LSD?
Bet, if that ever became common, advertisers would find some way to exploit
that too, so that instead of enlightenment your mind starts flashing ads all
throughout the high.

~~~
12bytes
you're painting "drugs" with a broad brush

psychedelics are not like cocaine, despite what the 'gubbmunt' would like you
to believe - rather they are like a window into your 'self' \- if you think of
psychedelics in terms of frequency, you might better understand the tremendous
potential they hold with regard to a laundry list of ailments, including
depression, PTSD, etc.

~~~
freeloop10
Your comment doesn't address what he wrote. The answer to anything as far as
the modern consumer is concerned seems to always be "Buy more stuff!" In this
case, what's being pedaled is the cure to consumerism. And the irony that the
proposed solution is to buy yet another product seems lost on most people
here.

Enough is enough. I agree with the original poster. Our solutions to every
problem shouldn't be to buy yet another thing.

~~~
tree_of_item
I downvoted you because psychedelic culture is about as anti-consumerist as it
gets, and it takes a pretty incredible reversal to try and paint it as a
product being pushed for people to buy.

~~~
freeloop10
I don't understand psychedelic culture, admittedly, but I can't wrap my head
around why you think it's anti consumerist. Drugs are being bought and
consumed, right? Isn't that the core of the culture? "Do this one thing, that
costs money, to improve your life." I don't see the fundamental difference
between that and purchasing any other product.

Thanks for saying why you downvoted, anyway.

~~~
nugga
Because drug culture isn't about buying things you don't need with money you
don't have to distract yourself from the now so you wouldn't feel existential
dread or have to face your runaway thoughts. Psychedelics take you to the NOW
and almost force you to deal with YOUR shit.

It's impossible to try to convey what it is like to someone who hasn't taken
them. You just won't know what you're missing or how it is until you try
because it works on your core being and whatever it is that filters the
reality that is experienced.

~~~
freeloop10
If that is the definition of consumerist, I'm not one in any way. I'm in my
40's, retired and living abroad in a small apartment. I have no car, and live
well within my means.

I've met a lot of people who have done a lot of drugs, including, but not
limited to psychedelics, including close family members who I knew well and
could watch their descent. The ones I know are depressed, some have suicided,
others are in huge amounts of debt.

If psychedelics are such a cure all, why have I never met anyone who took them
who had their shit together?

Writing in a diary, talking to a therapist, and opening up to people can also
be ways of dealing with your own problems in a direct manner, without so much
risk.

~~~
nugga
I think I meant to write a couple lines at first but the text just kept
increasing and then I went into notepad to really put a spin on it. Oops.

I can't say for the whole psychedelic using population what their motivations
are but as far as I can tell there is a clear distinction between users who
are doing spiritual practices or trying to find meaning in their lives and so
on versus slamming the heroin needle or hitting the crack pipe to get the
craziest dopamine rushes you have ever experienced. Not to mention the latest
meme to hit the mainstream, the microdosers, who use it as performance
enhancer.

Psychedelics as a broad group of chemicals all with similar action in the
brain and body contribute to thinking patterns and removing filters on your
consciousness. Some people find after one or more trips that they've uncovered
something that gave them a new lease on life or something. Some junkies who
'take anything they can get' even avoid psychedelics because it puts into
focus the state they are in. They don't want to face that for whatever reason.
Maybe that's why they are there in the first place.

One meme in the psychedelic culture goes "when you get the message hang up the
phone". You don't need all the pleasures in the world. You certainly don't
need to get those huge dopamine rushes daily and you don't need to or likely
want to keep constantly tripping in search of the craziest visions and highest
peaks, especially if you don't take the hint and start working on bettering
your 'sober' self.

Of course there is a whole scale of motivations in between and it's reasonable
to except people can function in society despite occasionally using catalysts
to trigger pleasurable experiences, as long as their whole existence does not
become only that at the expense of maintenance. There is some science on that
when your other needs are covered and you're doing pretty well you don't end
up in a downward spiral like that and won't get addicted or at least not in
the same proportion as when you're trying to fill a void with external
catalyst induced neurotransmitter rushes.

I'm not the one to overtly preach or advertise indiscriminant psychedelics use
because they can reveal or really put into focus all the bad shit you've been
avoiding or traumas you have pushed deep down that you kinda forgot they
existed or never dealt with. If you're unprepared or already on the edge bad
trips might push you past it and you may end up with something that seems like
permanent mental problems. Instead of increased clarity and awareness you may
end up at least temporarily in the shitter, and if you have no coping
mechanisms you could be fucked.

In my experience I think they contributed to giving me an ability to 'see
beyond' the every day reality and from that the motivation to really pay
attention to and hone the way I live and act towards myself and others. It's
as if for a long time I was a hostage to the depression in this body and
couldn't take the steps to fixing the situation back when it was less dire. I
used to hit the bong every day all day and slowly cause ruin to my body in
many other ways. I became more aware of what I was doing wrong and where my
anxiety was coming from.

