
FCC chief wants smartphones’ hidden FM radios turned on - saycheese
http://www.theverge.com/2017/2/16/14636508/ajit-pai-smartphone-fm-radio-activation
======
avemg
Submitted title gives the impression that he's going to do something about it.
Actual article title: "FCC chief wants smartphones’ hidden FM radios turned
on, but won’t do anything about it"

~~~
seltzered_
This. From the article:

"“As a believer in free markets and the rule of law, I cannot support a
government mandate requiring activation of these chips,” Pai said. He believes
the FCC doesn’t have the power to issue such a mandate and says it’s best for
the market to sort things out."

~~~
sverige
Sometimes when the rights of sellers and the rights of buyers clash, it
becomes obvious that the rights of buyers should be protected by the
government through regulation since the market isn't fully free due to
monopolistic or oligopolistic market forces. Even Mr. Pai can see that this is
stupid, but is unwilling to require manufacturers to do the right thing. This
is one of those cases where libertarianism loses its appeal.

~~~
wyager
Libertarianism loses its appeal because cell phone manufacturers don't want to
waste money and engineering time supporting FM radio, which almost no one
listens to anyway?

There's plenty of competition among cell companies, and the market has spoken;
people don't really care about FM radio on their cell phones.

~~~
intopieces
>... which almost no one listens to anyway?

"Traditional AM/FM terrestrial radio still retains its undiminished appeal for
listeners ­– 91% of Americans ages 12 and older had listened to this form of
radio in the week before they were surveyed in 2015, according to Nielsen
Media Research. This data is derived from diary-collected listening
information from a sample of over 395,000 respondents over the period of one
week, as a part of Nielsen’s RADAR study."

[http://www.journalism.org/2016/06/15/audio-fact-
sheet/](http://www.journalism.org/2016/06/15/audio-fact-sheet/)

~~~
btian
I'm interested to hear why people listen to terrestrial radio though
(especially for people in the United States).

I stream BBC Radio 1 when I drive to work and I live in Bay Area, but I
haven't found a terrestrial radio station that I would listen to.

~~~
khedoros1
Because I turn on my car, and without changing anything, the radio comes on.
No batteries or data plans to worry about, and there's a decent interface
that's integrated into my car.

I can get the same stations through IHeartRadio. I could get a phone dock, a
bluetooth device to connect to the aux input (car doesn't have BT), an adapter
for power (cigarette adapter), and all that. And I'd spend 20 seconds each car
trip turning on BT, opening the streaming app and navigating to the station,
fiddling with volume. I could stream stations from outside of my area, but I
pick up worldwide news all day anyhow. My commute's for more local stuff.

I'm just not a fan of using my phone for streaming in general.

------
upofadown
A lot of these sorts of problems would go away if companies were not allowed
to tie products they have a complete or partial monopoly on (i.e. last mile
wireless) to things that they don't have a monopoly on (handsets). Then if a
company wanted to sell a phone on a time payment plan with a broken FM radio,
then then no one could complain if they did so. The market would soon "sort
things out".

~~~
scarface74
Cellular carriers haven't had a stranglehold on phone manufacturers since the
iPhone came out. I don't think carriers are demanding features from Apple.

As far as Android, you can buy plenty of decent Android phones unlocked and
just choose your carrier - as long as you don't choose one of the CDMA
carriers. Not being able to use Sprint is no big loss. That just leaves
Verizon.

~~~
timewarrior
Even with Verizon if you have a phone which supports their LTE bands, you can
use them on Verizon. I used my iPhone 6 and iPhone SE from AT&T on Verizon.

~~~
scarface74
That's not true of all phones though. Most phones don't support CDMA and GSM.

Both SE models support CDMA and GSM but different bands. But only some iPhone
6 models support CDMA.

[http://www.everymac.com/systems/apple/iphone/iphone-
faq/diff...](http://www.everymac.com/systems/apple/iphone/iphone-
faq/differences-between-iphone-6-models.html)

~~~
coredog64
I thought it was the other way around. VZW's CDMA phones support GSM so that
their customers can use them while traveling internationally, but you're
unlikely to find a GSM phone that has CDMA just in case you want to switch to
VZW.

~~~
scarface74
There are plenty of cheaper CDMA phones that don't support GSM. Most of the
higher end phones support both.

And then there is another scenario like I believe some of the Google Nexus
tablets only support LTE on Verizon and won't work at all if there is no 4G on
a CDMA network. It will work on 3G/3.5G GSM networks.

------
tmzt
These chips are also only useful with wired headphones, since they use them as
the FM antenna. As Bluetooth (and proprietary) wireless headphones increase in
popularity, the usefulness of the features decrease. It also adds to confusion
as to why you only get static in some cases, or a message about wired
headphones being required.

~~~
throwawayish
> wireless headphones increase in popularity

Do they?

> It also adds to confusion as to why you only get static in some cases, or a
> message about wired headphones being required.

Poor humans, constantly being confused. Life must be difficult.

------
rchaud
My LG Incite from 2008 running Windows Mobile 6.1 had an FM Radio, as did my
HTC HD2 from around the same time. There were multiple Sandisk Sansa series
MP3 players that came with FM built-in as well.

I remember the iPod did not offer FM without a dongle, probably because they
didn't want radio to compete with the iTunes Store. It's probably not that
different now. Lots of Android phones today (carrier subsidized or otherwise),
now come with Spotify, Tidal or Google Play Music pre-installed.

It worries me that a regulatory body makes a public safety case for FM radio
and won't even attempt to ask manufacturers to simply activate what is already
there, in deference to "the free market". So now pushing for regulation is
disrespecting "the rule of law"?

Developments like this make me wish that "open-source" device+OS projects like
Mokophone and Firefox OS failed to gain traction.

~~~
X-Istence
The iPod Nano 5th edition required that the user plug in head phones to listen
to FM radio, this was required because there was no internal antenna, nor
would one work very well with the case being made out of metal.

Not a dongle...

~~~
MBCook
I believe he's right Apple sold an actual radio tuner for earlier models
before the 5th gen nano.

~~~
X-Istence
Ah, you are correct:

[https://www.amazon.com/Apple-Radio-Remote-iPod-
White/dp/B000...](https://www.amazon.com/Apple-Radio-Remote-iPod-
White/dp/B000MTEER4)

Interesting, never knew about this.

------
saycheese
FCC will not step in to require FM chips be accessible on smartphones that
have them; currently only 44% of the top selling smartphones enable their FM
chips, here's a list of the ones that do: [http://nextradioapp.com/supported-
devices/](http://nextradioapp.com/supported-devices/)

~~~
5555624
No, that's a list of phones that support the nextradio app. I did not buy my
Sony Z3 and Z3 Compact from my carrier (T-Mobile). They work fine -- T-Mobile
once offered a branded Z3 -- as does the FM radio. Neither phone will support
the nextradio app. Although I can install the app, it says I need to contact
my carrier. nextradio support says the same thing. I don't know if nextradio
supports unbranded phones on their list; but, they do not support all phones
with working FM radio.

------
dade_
As a public policy, it should be encouraged as many people can't afford data
plans. Basically their smartphone is their computer, and they go from hotspot
to hotspot for data. I also agree with the public safety aspect as well, but
either case requires consumer awareness and interest.

My Sony Xperia tablet has an FM tuner, but I had no idea it was there until I
noticed the app. It works well with a wired headset. It was handy in Cuba
(though everything was in Spanish) and a few other places where Internet
wasn't available/practical to use. I don't know that it would affect my next
purchase, but it does affect my perception of how user-hostile the
manufacturer is.

~~~
valuearb
It should be "encouraged"? What does this mean? There are phones that support
FM radio, if it's important to you get one. Don't foist the costs of this
"feature" on those who don't want it.

It's pretty clear Apple doesn't support radio because it's a feature almost no
one wants, and won't necessarily work as well as customers want. You need an
antenna, which on most phones uses the headphones, but it's unclear if
lightning phones can provide the same support. Spending money and time trying
to resolve any issues would just be a waste.

------
acomjean
As someone who was using an old walkman to listen to radio. Now I stream it,
even though I'm within range of the fm station.

Mainly its convince as the rechargeable aa batteries for my am/fm cassette
found another home. It seems so wasteful though, on the other hand I feel like
I'm being counted when I stream.

~~~
r00fus
counted, or tracked and monitored?

I never listen to FM, but I'm sure a bunch of folks are busy collecting my
habits and listening preferences are a valuable input to a complete "dossier".

------
mailslot
I know people that have never even used an AM/FM radio. Like, if you say a
radio station, they don't know what the numbers mean. I don't see a lot of
people using this feature because they don't know what it is.

~~~
jgalt212
presumably those people have never driven a car.

------
ansible
As I've said before, every cubic millimeter of volume in a modern smartphone
is expensive... it is precious.

Even if that functionality is available on one of the multiprotocol wireless
chips, adding even a tiny amount of support circuitry to enable may not be a
wise move from a product design point of view.

In the USA, an FM receiver isn't going to sell phones. VR, better cameras,
longer battery life, etc. sell phones.

~~~
striking
The FM receiver is very nearly always built into every phone processor. And
support circuitry like that is trivial.

Plus, FM receivers are much less power consuming than radio over data.

My next phone will have an FM receiver.

~~~
duskwuff
The FM receiver is not "built into every phone processor". It is _sometimes_
built into a separate radio chip. One such chip is the Broadcom BCM94343WWCD1:
[http://www.mouser.com/new/broadcom/broadcom-
bcm94343wwcd1-mo...](http://www.mouser.com/new/broadcom/broadcom-
bcm94343wwcd1-module/)

------
dchest
Related:

Norway is first country to turn off FM radio and go digital-only
[https://www.newscientist.com/article/2117569-norway-is-
first...](https://www.newscientist.com/article/2117569-norway-is-first-
country-to-turn-off-fm-radio-and-go-digital-only/)

~~~
jedberg
If we did this in the US it would be terrible for me. I still listen to the
radio when I drive because I don't have unlimited data on my phone for
streaming. My car is 16 years old so the radio doesn't support digital and it
definitely isn't worth upgrading. So I'd often be driving in silence which,
while not the end of the world, would suck.

My wife's car _does_ have a digital radio, but on long trips around California
there are often times when I can only get analog radio because they digital
infrastructure just isn't there.

Perhaps a forced change would make them upgrade, but I suspect there would be
a lot more dead zones (because at least at the current power levels, the
analog versions of the stations reach much further).

~~~
amalcon
They used to make a device that is essentially a tiny AM transmitter. You'd
plug it into your MP3 player's audio jack, and tune your car's radio to a
particular frequency.

I'm not sure if this is still a thing, though. It also doesn't totally solve
the problem (e.g. can't possibly listen to anything live like sports or news),
but it does help.

~~~
jedberg
It was FM and I have one so that I can listen to podcasts when I drive in
foreign countries.

But it sure is a pain in the ass. :)

------
svantana
I may be wrong here, but wouldn't reception be pretty poor using an antenna
designed for >10x the frequency of FM radio? There's a reason why most FM
radios have protruding antennas - the wavelength is ~3 meters.

~~~
detaro
Normally they use the headphone cable as an antenna (which leads to
contortions if you want to listen using bluetooth, since with most phones the
software assumes "oh, headphones plugged in, audio to headphones it is")

~~~
nxc18
Windows Phone did a good job with this; the music app let you choose to
override the default and play through the output device of your choice.

------
i336_
I think I've figured out what's really going on here.

I had a look at [http://nextradioapp.com](http://nextradioapp.com) and found
that even the Galaxy S7 Edge has an FM radio. Curious if there was some kind
of secret way to kickstart it regardless of the vendors' interests, I did a
quick Google and found
[https://community.verizonwireless.com/thread/908251](https://community.verizonwireless.com/thread/908251),
and learned something very very interesting. (I still don't know if you can
bypass it, but I'd now be surprised if you could.)

Most of the below is taken from the above link, which is recommended reading.

It appears that to enable the FM radio, you must pay licensing fees (?) of
some kind, and you must also do FCC radiation testing. If you disable the FM
receiver chip (presumably in a way end-users cannot bypass :( ), you get to
skip those fees.

It also seems that if the manufacturer turns the radio off, it's still
possible for the carrier to turn it back on if _they_ foot the bills for the
licensing fees and certification.

So the carriers' position isn't too great: they're getting handsets with
neutered FM receivers from manufacturers looking to "optimize" their OEM
prices, which the carriers would have to throw a bunch of money at re-
enabling... only to give consumers less reason to continuously use data. This
totally explains why I only just learned the S7 Edge has an FM receiver in it
(I'm in Australia btw).

Regarding the OP article, this whole situation appears to just be a money-
grabbing attempt by the FCC. The gracious-sounding lines in the OP article
about him saying that he doesn't believe he should force everyone is just
fluff. This is just a careful financial drive - the FCC can't force everyone
to enable the radio because it would risk the FCC itself getting stomped on
itself by antitrust laws/conflict of interest rulings.

 _That being said_ , nextradio does list a few phones with enabled radios on a
number of carriers, so I'm _guessing_ the fees are not too high, and I'm
guessing this is simply a benign case of, say, fewer radios being sold
worldwide because everyone's moved to their phone now, and the FCC is trying
to continue receiving their FM revenue while the FM bandwidth is still
operative - for example Norway just killed FM countrywide
([https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13333570](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13333570)).

I'm very very curious who is footing the bill for the 80% of phones being sold
in Mexico (as per the OP article).

~~~
makomk
The FCC-mandated radiation testing for FM receivers is absolutely _trivial_
compared to all the other emissions tests required by them for electronics
devices, especially intentional radiators such as mobile phones. They're at
the lowest tier of assessment and authorization, which doesn't even require
the use of an accredited testing laboratory or filing any kind of application
or registration: [http://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-
idx?SID=df5370d2e0e33e10c9b...](http://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-
idx?SID=df5370d2e0e33e10c9b55ce593b56af3&mc=true&tpl=/ecfrbrowse/Title47/47tab_02.tpl)
Any company capable of making a mobile phone should have the equipment to do
this in-house.

Now, it's entirely possible that the chipset manufacturers are charging
licensing fees to enable FM radio, but as far as I can tell companies don't
have to pay a single cent to the FCC for this.

~~~
i336_
Thanks for the info. Yeah, I didn't think testing for radio compliance would
be too tricky.

The license agreement bits do have me a bit perplexed. I'm not sure how that
works out. I was admittedly rolling with conjecture and surmising a bit in my
other comment, although it did sound plausible.

------
Pxtl
To be fair, there are bodies in charge of competiton and consumer protection
that should be fixing the moronic us cellphone market. The FCC is just about
the broadcast frequencies themselves.

------
ungzd
In Russia, FM stations are as bad as TV. Mostly "Russian chanson" music —
songs about jail life and "thieves romanticism", lowest grade pop music and
propaganda news. Is there decent stations in US?

But it would be super cool if such receivers had frequency range larger than
for broadcast stations and streamed raw i/q samples.

~~~
MK999
FM music is pretty much the same everywhere in the US because Clear Channel
owns (almost) everything

~~~
sabujp
on the west coast there are tons of hispanic stations, the occasional
bollywood station, classical, talk (both liberal and conservative), public
radio, country, christian

------
Dowwie
This is the FCC chief who uses the free market competition argument in favor
of reversing net neutrality.

------
Clubber
I'd love if my iPhone had an FM/AM radio. I think it's silly that they don't
put one in there yet, and I don't know of a good reason.

The nano's have them. I'd be fine with the headphones being an antenna. Data
caps, man. I need my tunes at work!

------
sengork
I would love to see manufacturers enable this feature instead of artificially
crippling the software/hardware found in the phones.

Tuning into local tourist information broadcast is something that you cannot
completely substitute with a data connection.

------
ceedan
My Nokia Lumia 920 had an fm radio.... I loved that feature of it. I used to
listen to local radio/sports radio stations on the way home from work without
using my data (public transit, no wifi).

~~~
bsilvereagle
All Windows Phones were required to have a functioning FM tuner. Microsoft had
a strict list of hardware requirements.

------
mkj
Can phones access the radio audio in software? Combine it with a low power FM
transmitter for data and you might be able to make something interesting for
short distance data broadcasts.

------
drivingmenuts
Yep, because we all need more unskippable ads, the same 10 songs on infinite
repeat and shock-jocks screaming about whatever.

If radio actually had some variation from that pattern, I'd support this.
Instead, I'd suggest just dropping the radio tuner chip and using the space
for something else that's actually useful.

The only reason they're in there in the first place is because the radio
industry pitched a hissyfit and Congress decided some protectionism was in
order.

------
eganist
There's a title mismatch between submission and original post, with the
original title providing far more context. cc dang

------
SEJeff
Virtually all major FM radio stations can be found on tunein.com, which is how
Sonos speakers support local radio stations.

------
hashkb
Why? There's no good reason for carriers or phone makers to do it. I haven't
been anywhere where the radio was playing in a long time. I'd rather see the
frequencies returned to the general population for fun.

