
Ask HN: I'm a dull person since software doesn't excite me anymore. What to do? - glorifiedcalc
I&#x27;ve loved computers since I was a kid. Got a degree in CS, worked at a few small companies, and then landed a job in a large tech company, which was my dream. Then everything went to shit.<p>Before that job, I was crazy about anything related to software. My life was devoted to reading papers, learning new languages, libraries and frameworks, and thinking about the future of things and what could be improved. I had an extreme drive to work and deliver, and a stellar career up to that point.<p>I really wanted to work for one of the big tech companies, so I started applying to them. I didn&#x27;t really care about the project I would be in, as long as I got a job in one of those companies.<p>So I landed one of those jobs. And the project SUCKED. In two years, it turned me into a complete cynic towards software. I don&#x27;t see the value in things like I used to anymore. I don&#x27;t want to think about technology. I want to use computers as glorified calculators, nothing more. I dread hearing about frameworks, IDEs, debuggers, compilers, Unicode, RFCs, protocols, what have you. Everything seems unnecessarily complex.<p>I thought the problem was that bad project, so I switched teams. One of the coolest teams in the company, actually - lots of publicity, contributes to open source, really smart people. But the scar from the previous two years is still there. I can&#x27;t find that passion in me anymore, and my performance is mediocre. I spend my days dreaming about early retirement.<p>What depresses me is seeing how uninteresting a person I am now that I don&#x27;t have all that passion for software. Because I spent so many years focusing on it, I feel like I have nothing else in me. I don&#x27;t have hobbies. I haven&#x27;t traveled a lot. I don&#x27;t appreciate art. I don&#x27;t even play video games. I&#x27;m as good to talk to as a brick of mud. I don&#x27;t know what to do.<p>Sorry for the wall of text. I guess I&#x27;m looking for people who have been through a similar experience and recovered from it.
======
muzani
I'm facing this. I think it's a kind of trauma. I've dealt with death march
projects too often, often becoming the 'hero' who has to bail out everyone's
butts. At three points in my life, I've worked about 100 hours straight to
rescue a project.

I'm recovering. I tried coding something I like, but that didn't help. I tried
vacations and sleeping it off. I tried binging on games.

What works for me is a fan base. It's great to know your work has impact on
people. It's nice to get "this is awesome!!" feedback, and better yet cash
donations.

I think the team itself has very little to do with it. There are awful teams,
but in general, you can still get the same feeling from a superb team and
great people.

Productive engineers = happy engineers.

Maybe try a simple project that you can feel the results. Especially if it can
net you positive feedback.

~~~
nevi-me
100 hours sounds hectic. The last time I worked long hours for 2 continuous
weeks and weekends I nearly quit my job the following Monday. Some sleep and a
day off work changed my mind.

It sucks when you're in rescue mode on a project. I am on a project that is
going a bit like that. A part of me wishes it ends sooner than later, because
even though I took a month off work, by the end of next my first week, it'll
feel like I never went away.

What would you recommend at the start of a project to avoid the death march?
I'm struggling to find the right mix in people to help us balance our teams
well. Lots of keyman dependencies which we can't handle at times. Thanks

~~~
muzani
Almost all my death marches happened when the project is being authoritatively
led by a non-engineer.

An engineer's estimate is usually conservative. If someone says it'll take 2
months, it'll probably take _minimum_ two months. If you have good engineers,
they're not trying to slack off by padding estimates. Respecting project
estimates go a long way.

The right team also matters. In some, we had interns working on a key
component. I'm not saying interns are bad, but generally you don't want
grumpy, underpaid people to work overtime.

The designer has to respect the engineers. If you do a design that sticks to
guidelines or something like Material Design, you'll be fine. But some
designers try something really weird, in order to win an award, and some of
those tiny details are pointless but would take 50% of the production time.

I actually did ragequit in most of those jobs. I know it sounds tantrum-y, but
I'd say it rescued a lot of those projects. When you quit a well-paid job, the
company immediately assumes that you have a very good reason to quit and
starts listening. Then they allocate _some_ resources, like a tester,
dedicated designer, and the API guy sits with front end for those 100 hours
straight.

------
lobo_tuerto
You my friend, got burnt out. You need to take some time away from it all. Go
on travel for a while then see how things turn up.

I once got burnt out and didn't want to know anything about programming
anymore. Time later rediscovered my passion for it again, was like a second
falling in love and have been enjoying it since.

If you want to talk my email is in my profile.

------
hoodoof
You sound depressed. Loss of interest in work can be a symptom of depression.
Feeling boring is about loss of self value. Possibly there are other things
not going well in your life? You don't say how old you are but as you get
older life moves from being super career focused to a point where other things
start to matter. If you have not invested your life and time into other things
then obviously you don't have a well balanced life to support you through the
hard times.

Probably you will regain your love for software development - I have fallen
out of love with it a few times but it comes back as life changes.

What you do need is balance - 1 hour per day exercise, you need plenty of
human relationships in your day to day life (invest time in family, friends,
others), work that interests you - (time to start looking for a new job?) and
depending on your life stage maybe its time to start thinking about starting a
family.

Finally you definitely need to find a good counsellor/therapist to be talking
this stuff over with - HN is not the place.

------
dougmwne
You just answered your own question. Time to go become an interesting person.

First of all, you have burnout. You need to heal, and it'll take time. I know.
I have been there and back again. Aim to spend at least 6 months not working
in your field. A lot of people will say travel. Could be, but doesn't have to
be.

Now, an anecdote. I was working in non-profit fundraising and attended a talk
by one of the celebrated thinkers on major donor fundraising. She said the key
to working with major donors, to being able to create meaningful, non-
parasitic relationships with people who have a lot of money to bring to the
cause, is to be interesting. Interesting people are interesting because they
have a full life of experiences outside their profession. Interesting people
do not spend all their time working. So her answer to becoming a better
fundraising professional, was to work less, and live more. This struck me as
widely applicable advice.

------
gitpusher
> I'm a dull person since software doesn't excite me anymore. What to do?

You are not alone. What you're experiencing has many names: Here in the tech
world we call it "burnout". I dislike the word "burnout". It suggests that
your JOB is the ultimate source of your dissatisfaction. It rarely is. Your
work may indeed factor heavily in the equation... but your problem is NOT "too
much work", it's "too little of things that I love".

Figure out what's dulling your shine* (Hint: it's not a lack of interest in
software) and go unfuck yourself!

[*] Some suggestions: \- Haven't been outside much? Go for a hike. \- Haven't
been dating much? Go on a date. \- Wish you could travel more? Take time off
ASAP and travel. \- Lost interest in programming? Take time off ASAP and
travel. \- Feel like nobody loves you? You're wrong, they do.

Just stay focused on "what do I WANT TO DO"... "What do I LOVE". Then make
steps to go do those things. You've let key elements of YOURSELF starve and
wither away. It's a bad situation, sure. But the good news is that it's
temporary, and you can fix it (quicker than you'd imagine!) Just invest in
yourself :)

------
amyjess
I'm in a similar position.

I wanted desperately to get out of my last company, which was a very abusive
environment. So I switched jobs and landed at a company that's treated me
better than any other employer I've had... except I'm now totally burned out
on the work. It's all academic/research stuff, which I'm terrible at and have
zero interest in, and it's basically killed my interest in my job. I'm getting
ready to start sending my resume out, but I have a strong feeling the burnout
will just follow me wherever I go even if my next job has me working on
systems/infrastructure stuff again (which I worked on at my previous jobs and
liked).

Also, over a year since I left my last job, I still have a lot of emotional
scars left from the abusive way my last employer treated me.

Another thing that's got me is my age. I'm 31, and I'm still working a fairly
junior position. I actually don't mind that. I have no career ambition, and as
long as I'm making enough money to comfortably pay my bills, I couldn't care
less about chasing a higher salary. I'm content to work junior coding
positions for the rest of my life. Unfortunately, as I get older, employers
aren't going to see it that way. They're going to wonder why I haven't
advanced into a leadership role at my age, and I'm dreading the day I get
asked that in an interview. It also means I can't really talk about career
stuff with my friends, because most of the CS people I went to college with
are now in leadership roles or other senior technical positions, and I have
much more in common with people who started college the year after I graduated
(and I've done an absolutely terrible job of making new friends since
graduating college, so most people I know are people I went to college with).

I have a feeling that if I wasn't completely aromantic, I'd be happiest living
like Mrs. Roberts from xkcd, as a housewife who still hacks on personal
projects for fun.

------
exolymph
It sounds like you're depressed -- I don't know if that's accurate, but it's
my interpretation of the feeling(s) that you've described. If you think
depression or a similar experience may be part of this, I recommend either
talking to a mental health professional or seeking out resources geared toward
depressives.

------
rdiddly
What happened to you, is the collision of your idealism (as expressed mainly
through software) with "the real world" (that one project that SUCKED). It
happened to me as a musician. It happens to everyone, maybe. The world bitch-
slaps you and you survive it and that's one less thing that can bother you.
You are now, arguably, a man, or at least you could evolve into one, depending
on how you process and work through this.

You are in a grief process. What died, is your idea of the world as a
continuously improving place where things are done right and for the right
reasons. (You found out it is a huge clusterfuck full of mediocrity.)

What you need to remember though, is that your power is not IN the software,
any more than mine was in the music. Software for you is only an "instrument"
through which you express your personal power. The power is not in the
instrument, it's in you. And you therefore have the option - an infinite array
of options - for how to express it.

One idea: Since you may or may not be done with software now, instead of
dreaming about early retirement, make a plan and make it happen. See this guy:
[http://www.mrmoneymustache.com](http://www.mrmoneymustache.com) for
inspiration. Then you'll have plenty of time to explore other things. Though
it may mean a few more years doing this.

And/or, in the shorter term, the obvious thing to do is go explore some things
and see if they interest you. Don't be all "I have to be a connoisseur
overnight," just keep an open mind. Go see one play. Take an improv (like as
in acting) class. Go to an art gallery opening. Learn to play a musical
instrument. Go on one trip -- and LEAVE YOUR FUCKING PHONE IN THE SUITCASE
UNTIL NIGHTTIME. Excuse me. I'm serious though, time away from technology,
either incrementally or permanently, is probably what you need.

Technology is not the solution to the world's ills, it is ultimately fairly
empty, and arguably causes more problems than it solves. That doesn't mean
it's not worthwhile - the Zen master still sharpens his sword now doesn't he?
Not because he needs a sharp sword (or hopefully never does), but because the
act of sharpening, sharpens him.

------
mabbo
I might suggest a different diagnosis to your lack of interest: it's not that
you don't care about software, it's that you don't care about the business
you're in.

Software, to me, is a set of tools. Some are super fun to use, and I find I'm
getting better at the skill of using them, and can help tutor others on the
finer points in their use. I do enjoy that. But the tools themselves are
merely the means to an end, when it comes to what makes me passionate about my
job.

I work in a business that I'm really excited about (operations management
software for warehouses and transportation/delivery at a large e-commerce
company). I love it. I love the big picture of what's being done. I love the
customers. I really love flying to places to meet the customers, empathizing
with them, learning their needs and desires, and then solving their problems
and making their lives easier.

That's why I get excited about my job, what gets me out of bed in the morning.
The software? That's a toolbox I use to achieve my goals. Fun tools, I admit,
and I strive to master them- but they're just the tools.

So my advice to you is very simple: go find a business where you care about
the customers. Then practice your skill with your tools by helping those
customers. If that doesn't make you love your job, well, there's always money
in trade skills like welding.

------
thesingularity
Same thing happens to me time and again. I get passionate about X - spend all
my time learning everything I can about X and one day I wake up and couldn't
care less about X. This happens once every 5 years. It's just the way I am and
have made peace with it.

The answer is to look for the next X that gets you passionate again - i.e. Y.
This can be anything you choose - a new startup, get into software marketing,
write a book, teach .... the world is your oyster.

~~~
mrfusion
Any tips for finding the next x?

------
redtt
Throwaway for obvious reasons.

First check you minerals and vitamins, psychiatrist, blood tests etc.. I had
similar problem and it was magnesium and bad glasses.

Secondly count your money and see what is your runway. You probably have
enough to take a break for a year or two in cheap country.

And third check your working conditions. There is usually some sort of
allergy, missing reward etc.. For example some people can not work in open-
spaces.

> _I dread hearing about frameworks, IDEs, debuggers, compilers, Unicode,
> RFCs, protocols, what have you. Everything seems unnecessarily complex._

Find a niche. I make money on Delphi (my IDE is from 2003) and we dont have
such things.

> _What depresses me is seeing how uninteresting a person I am_

Uninteresting to whom?

> _I don 't have hobbies. I haven't traveled a lot. I don't appreciate art. I
> don't even play video games._

There is nothing wrong about that, art etc is boooooring. You can fix
traveling or art problem in a few weeks, most people will never be able to
even read code. And if its so important why just not fix it?

Anyway my impression is that you miss reward/recognition for what you do,
someone told you are nerd etc.. There is good self-improvement subreddit with
over 100K subscribers, but I can not post link here.

Good luck.

------
gaze
I was burned out on software by the time I entered college... I had been
working internships at big tech companies, a lab, an Internet non profit... I
basically felt the same thing you did at that point. Every codebase looked
like the same agglomeration of interfaces and standards and shit I didn't care
about. Every project I started hit a roadblock when I found everything started
by writing some FFI. Just interfaces on interfaces!

So, I stopped! I'd advise you to as well. Pick up something new. I think what
you're feeling is that writing an interface because you have to just feels
like work. What have you accomplished? Find some problem in another field you
can apply your skills to and try to solve it simply and efficiently and by
yourself. Maybe something simple! I think Linus's dive log is a really good
example of this. You're burned out. Or maybe you're not and the unnecessary
complexity involved in modern software really is just kinda saddening. Do
something else. You'll feel better.

------
ferrari8608
Sounds like you really do need some hobbies. We can't code all of the time.
Even the most passionate of hackers would get burnt out like that. You're
burnt out; time for a change of pace.

------
robgibbons
I've been there a few times over the course of about 10 years. My strategy is
to seek out a new field within tech which I haven't yet explored, and which is
in no way related to my job (web dev).

Currently I'm trying my hand at building an underwater ROV. This combines my
background in programming with the field of robotics, in which I have little
expertise but oodles of interest. It hasn't directly helped me in my "actual"
job per se, but it has given me new channels to explore that keep me thinking,
learning, and experimenting. That's the important part.

Of course, you don't need to stay within the field of tech to find something
that motivates you. It just happens that robotics (and the ocean) is an old
passion of mine that I haven't even nearly exhausted.

------
mixmastamyk
We all change and find new priorities as we age, it's normal.

> I don't have hobbies. I haven't traveled a lot. I don't appreciate art. I
> don't even play video games. I'm as good to talk to as a brick of mud.

Well, what are you waiting for? Buy some tickets, travel the hostel circuit to
save money, and take some community college classes before & afterward. Music
appreciation, anthropology, photography, and astronomy were some of my
favorites. Luckily software intersects with all of them these days if/when
you're ready to return.

------
grecy
Life is too short. Quit, and find something you do love.

Maybe you'll do something else for a couple of years then remember you do love
software and come back (on a new team/project) - who knows.

The important thing is you do something you love NOW.

I hit the same wall, quit my job and spent 2 years driving from Alaska to
Argentina, improving my photography, learning Spanish, etc. etc. It was an
amazing break, and I was excited to get stuck back into Software Engineering
when I got back. Four years later I've just quit again and I'm heading off
around Africa for 2 years.

------
aph341
What, if some day or night a demon were to steal after you into your loneliest
loneliness and say to you: "This life as you now live it and have lived it,
you will have to live once more and innumerable times more; and there will be
nothing new in it, but every pain and every joy and every thought and sigh and
everything unutterably small or great in your life will have to return to you,
all in the same succession and sequence—even this spider and this moonlight
between the trees, and even this moment and I myself. The eternal hourglass of
existence is turned upside down again and again, and you with it, speck of
dust!"

Would you not throw yourself down and gnash your teeth and curse the demon who
spoke thus? Or have you once experienced a tremendous moment when you would
have answered him: "You are a god and never have I heard anything more
divine." If this thought gained possession of you, it would change you as you
are or perhaps crush you. The question in each and every thing, "Do you desire
this once more and innumerable times more?" would lie upon your actions as the
greatest weight. Or how well disposed would you have to become to yourself and
to life to crave nothing more fervently than this ultimate eternal
confirmation and seal?

------
iwood
I received a degree in computer graphics and graphic design from Indiana
University in 1994 and worked 25 years in software development. I too have
reached the point where I see that we only create more complex problems with
technology. We were told we'd make life easier, but we've only made more
complex systems and have removed the human connection as a solution. I believe
rather than creating BIG data solutions we can create community sizes that
function as a system and that support our needs without draining the earth and
ecosystem of its resources. We may make things so complex that they'll
collapse in on themselves.

I've been a project manager, senior project manager, program manager and COO
in software development. I've seen a lot of people burn out and be frustrated
by seeing their efforts shelved and never used.

I've started using my organizational skills in sustainability and
environmental efforts - with a love for local food - and am planning to build
a sustainable community. Early stages, check
[http://gatheringspirits.wordpress.com/](http://gatheringspirits.wordpress.com/)

ingrid@marketlocalfoodcom

------
kordless
The first step to solving a problem is to admit you, like all of us, have one.
Start by appreciating yourself for seeking answers to those problems. Here are
some I've learned along the path:

1\. Understand and listen to what causes you suffering and leads to
dissonance. For example, what makes you not want to think about technology
when you clearly used to love it? What is your emotional response to thinking
about not traveling for the next year? Acknowledge the emotions you have and
realize the questions will never end.

2\. Set intent. What things can you do in your life to enable step #1 to
happen faster? Explore your options. There is an answer out here for your
question, but it takes you to find it.

3\. Keep your intent free of dissonance. Biases, blaming or speaking for
others, and rationalizations are indications of dissonance that'll just slow
you down and hinder you doing #2.

4\. Use #2 to drive putting yourself into situations, in all parts of your
life, that encourage #1 to happen faster. You switched teams. Are you willing
to switch companies? Careers? Doing #1 is frequently scary. Try to face your
fears.

Glad you posted! You aren't the only one going through this, by a long shot.

------
alsocalc
My story is similar. I loved computers and programming, have a degree, done it
for years, in my early 30s. I spent 80-100 hour weeks keeping a dying startup
alive for a year without pay before finally leaving. My mental state was very
similar to what you describe: Loss of interest, decreased self-worth, and an
uncertain future. It sucks and I'm sorry you are going through it.

I wish I could tell you how to move past it, but I haven't figured that out
yet. I also suspect different things work for different people.

I agree with the others who suggested this may be burnout and/or depression.
It was in my case, although I am predisposed due to personal and family
history. Consider therapy, meds, exercise, socializing, and self-help books. I
recommend the CBT-family of therapies (CBT/DBT/ACT/REBT) and books by Albert
Ellis and David Burns in particular. Therapy and self-help can be beneficial
regardless of whether or not you have a mental illness.

I would not recommend what I did: I moved to a new city to take Masters-level
CS courses as a non-matriculated student, with plans to apply to grad programs
if it worked out. It didn't. I failed miserably. If you don't have an interest
in the professional work, it may transfer to academic work and further
complicate a difficult transition. The lack of social support and career
network also shouldn't be underestimated. Although switching gears and
pursuing education may be exactly what you need, be aware of the risks.

Make a goal of building the life you want. Don't fret over sunk costs. It's
not too late to start over or change direction, and your skills and
experiences are likely to be valuable even in completely unrelated pursuits.
Best of luck!

------
nevi-me
Many people get to that point, and I agree with other comments that it might
be depression or just fatigue.

I'm going back to work tomorrow, and I'm not looking forward to it because the
project I'm on isn't going well. A few days ago I asked myself if I'd be
feeling different if the project was going well, and concluded that I would
be. I'm 26, and can still change a lot that I dislike. I'm going to stick
through the project, but after it ends (if it ends) I'm moving on to something
else.

I've dealt with depression a lot as a kid, and also a bit in my short working
career. Doing something different definitely helps, making new friends and
forming new habits on your own or with them.

I have a cooking/baking/movie partner, she doesn't understand half of the
things I talk about at times, and I also don't understand a lot of things she
does. So we teach each her about what we do when we meet up. Talking helps,
but also doing something to spend time off the monitor and keyboard helps me.

I hope this is useful to you or someone else.

EDIT: typos

------
mclovinit
Take a few steps back and try to recall the real reason why you were so
passionate early on: you found something that resonated with you deeply. You
will not gain that same insight if you do not just "let it go" (no Disney-
esque pun intended there).

Often times, holding onto what made you happy or satiated your desires despite
it hurting you in a bad way, is a recipe for a downward spiral to nowhere.

Try a new hobby, make sure new people are involved. Sign up for a class in
accounting or something related to woodworking. Important part of this
practice is _people_. You must have others new people around you that have
_no_ idea about what you do professionally or during most of you waking hours.
That way you will not feel the weight of the world on you shoulders.

I have been there, man. However, it only gets better if you own it. Good luck!

------
icedchai
Go work for a smaller company where you can collaborate more directly with
customers, founders, etc.

------
TYPE_FASTER
What has helped me is playing with the combination of OpenCV and iOS. None of
the issues of enterprise configuration management or change management or
project management. Just thinking about how to solve a problem using software
and doing it.

------
dominotw
I do think this is going to be a __big __problem for humanity in very near
future.

I've read extensively about blackwater and ISIS recruits and most of them are
pure adventurers and don't care about ideologies. People all over the world
are finding it hard to lives defined by constant consumption without any
inherent meaning to define it by.

All the vc's and technologists who are supposed to go after basic human
problems are doing stupid shit like self-driving cars, gassy powders for food,
watches/fitness garbage ect. Maybe you can start your own startup to solve
your own problem of passion.

------
neurotools
If you can afford it, switch job... Anything not computer related... Learn to
cook... Do something that gives you happiness and make a living of that. Or...
Take part time computer related job, as freelancer or offsite contractor and
use the spare time un some personal project. Maybe electronics and IoT / home
automation can be a profitable area of development and your previous software
background can be helpful. Definetly you should take therapy. That will help
you to find the lost taste for what you do and redirect your efforts in be a
happy person.

------
nezaj
+1 for Travel.

I'm guessing you're in your 20s and have saved up a bit. You could travel
awhile in India, Southeast Asia, South America, etc. You'll have some crazy
experiences and reset your views

------
womitt
As dumb and hackneyed it sounds, some more sport may help get your balance
back. You should try some high intensity interval training, yoga or running.
Works wonders on your longterm mood.

------
zeeshanm
I have been through the same! :)

Back in high school when I started programming with the LAMP stack I was
totally hooked. I spent most of my first two years in high school doing the
same. As I entered my third year I was kind of burned out and wanted to try
something new. I shifted my focus towards doing other cool stuff. There was
still that tinkerer in me who wanted to break and fix things.

One thing that kept my interest was my desire to break and fix things without
thinking about the outcome.

My email is in my profile if you want to talk. :)

------
pierrepln
Challenge yourself. Get out of your comfort zone with something completely new
to you.

Why not going in a random place, with no phone, no laptop, no device? Learning
mediation is something unattractive ? You might have found something then!

I think I'm a really young person, my opinion is biased because of my poor
perception of your problem. Although I hope you might find an idea or a
challenging way to deal with your "re-building".

------
seivan
Whatever you do, when you come back, make sure not to work for an agency,
especially the ad-variety. It will suck the life out of you. Find a product
you actually believe in and only worn with people you want to. Best way to get
unfucked.... I think :-/. But seriously though, don't work with any bodyshops
or ad-agency but will kill you.

------
56k
Big companies can suck the enthusiasm out of you, but don't mistake it for not
liking what you like anymore.

Just take some time off, without even opening your laptop, and you'll see that
your passion will come back.

It happened to me in the past, and the problem was just that I had overdone
it.

------
pekk
> Everything seems unnecessarily complex.

This impulse to find a simpler land of software is what I relate to in the
Suckless stuff, and Terry Davis' TempleOS.

What these have in common is a large degree of separation from "the industry."
There is no commercial reward in following this impulse. But I think it marks
a certain level of maturity as a person who is passionately into computers and
software and thinks about them a lot.

Computers aren't the problem. Software isn't the problem. The culture of
people who write software is only part of the problem. The problem is "the
industry."

If you really can't stand the unnecessary bullshit anymore and aren't going to
become a hermit on a mountain you probably should at least find other hobbies,
if not change careers.

------
lovelearning
Take a 6 month to 1 year sabbatical, and do everything else that you always
wanted to do. The love for programming will most likely come back. I speak
from experience.

------
melted
Take a break. Say, a year if you can afford it. Go do something unrelated to
software. If you're anything like me in 3-4 months the itch will be back.

------
daralthus
I highly recommend the book called Impro from Keith Johnestone. It could help
with the uninteresting feeling a lot.

~~~
mbrock
Great book. There are a few videos of Johnstone on YouTube, including an
interview that I thought was interesting.

------
mathiasrw
If you want to get your joy back for software I suggest 2 things to do every
day:

A) Start juicing (green things and apples) everyday. A glass in the morning
and one before dinner is good.

B) Start to let the body do what its ment to do: move - and make sure its
every muscle fiber that gets contracted and stretched.

I have met many people with codefatigue / softwarefatigue - and its basically
always been a lack of focus on the needs of the cells constuting our body.

~~~
gaius
Physical exercise, enough sleep, good food and sunlight can work wonders.

------
egypturnash
What do you imagine yourself doing when you daydream about that early
retirement?

------
mbrock
Now I'm humming that Father John Misty song that goes "people are boring, but
you're something else completely..."

This isn't much of a cheer up but lots of people are dull in this sense. Maybe
they've worked at the DMV for 40 years. Or they've been dealing with local
politics all their life. Maybe they have a hobby but in all likelihood that's
boring, too—tell me more about your ski trip or your pottery...

In first person, skiing is awesome, but it's useless for being an "interesting
person." Some people are interesting from a varied life experience, and some
people bore everyone to death with their fascinating anecdotes. There are
other factors and the focus on having "wasted one's life" is, I think, a red
herring.

Because the real problem doesn't seem to be how to be interesting but how to
be _interested_. If you're moderately burned out then your capacity for
interest fades. Enjoyment becomes less enjoyable.

I sometimes watch a video with the psychotherapist Adam Phillips who talks
about the need to find one's appetite. It's a good notion because it's counter
to the quasi-Buddhist ideal of non-desire that's floating around, and it's
also not just telling you to "enjoy" yourself in the obvious ways—but to
really locate your appetite as if you don't really know where it is or how it
works.

I would suggest that boredom with software can be a useful attitude. The
proliferation of infrastructural complexity doesn't benefit end users, and for
any given purpose there is value in minimizing the amount of necessary
software to achieve it. Code is technical debt; that's why everyone loves to
remove lines of it.

So your incentive as an engineer who sees software as a burden is in many ways
aligned with good business. This might make you curious about ways to simplify
and write less code. That's a huge topic and the focus of some of the smartest
people in the field. Maybe it's even the primary topic of computer
engineering.

Townes van Zandt sang "life's mostly wasting time," but I'd say it's mostly
dealing with bullshit and problems. Work is like this: something is messed up
and you need to fix it. There may be a grander vision motivating your work,
but there will always be days when that's far off and you're just down in the
muck with your hands dirty from CORBA stack traces and horrible complicated
"logic" (to use the industry euphemism for the growing accumulations of
special cases and workarounds). At this point it's good to have a repertoire
of attitudes that includes the role of a technician who puts on her gloves and
jacket and goes down into the mess holding her breath.

Then there are two more things.

The first is the real possibility that your current place of employment is not
a good fit. Maybe you would be more engaged at an early startup, or more
inspired somewhere with a more diverse staff, or you might need different
terms like Wednesdays off, half time telecommute, or whatever other
arrangement. I don't know and it might take experimentation. If your boss is
sympathetic, hopefully you can work something out, or you can find another
place.

The other thing is mental health broadly speaking. Lots of people in IT have
"issues" and you can find dozens of courageous conference talks with personal
stories of mental unwellness. Working people in general for obvious reasons
can become dissatisfied with life, especially those whose job involve sitting
still at the same desk every day—dealing with broken shit.

The state of affairs societally is obviously broken, and hopefully the next
few years will have more recognition of this—talk of reduced hours and even
basic income schemes are becoming normalized and viable. Still, political
shifts notwithstanding, you need to take real measures in your life to combat
the tendencies toward overwork, overdistraction, and the spiral of boredom.

It's a spiral because it involves feedback loops that demand either strong
effort or clever judo to escape. There are bootstrapping problems involved
when your problem is that you don't want to do stuff. Malignant problems
exacerbate themselves: lack of interest leads to fear of dullness leads to
nonactivity.

For all of this last point my primary advice is to talk to a professional in
mental health. This is what they do. In some cases they might recommend a
medicinal method of bootstrapping, if you're okay with that and if you need
it. But they also work with things like thought patterns and general
counselling. Experienced therapists will have talked to hundreds of people
with similar problems.

Secondarily, while I sympathize and recognize your situation, I'll
respectfully disagree that lack of hobbies makes a person dull. For an obvious
contraindicator, this thread itself shows that you have questions to ask that
people find relevant. Mental content isn't everything. As a human you're
endowed with the capacities of consciousness that we all share and that's the
basis for curiosity, not some amount of learned facts or skills.

I mean, you don't need anyone's permission to start traveling, and all
travelers start from this state of ignorance, yet their basic human
receptiveness makes them capable of curiosity, and that makes them
"interesting" as travelers.

If you're not clinically depressed, if you can wake up in a hostel room and
after a cup of coffee feel basically alright, you can go out in any foreign
city and look around. You don't need to be knowledgable about architecture or
politics, but if you're in Bangkok and see the king on billboards everywhere
you'll get curious and sooner or later you've learned about the history of
Thai monarchism, maybe even read _The King Never Smiles_ , and then when
Southeast Asia comes up, you're suddenly the guy with the interesting
knowledge, and all you had to do was follow your natural curiosity.

I've saved this for last but consider meditation—in the very simple sense of
sitting down quietly in the morning or evening, maybe with a cup of tea or
something. It's all dressed in flowery metaphysics and people get excited
about it but it's such a simple thing, to sit quietly. I don't keep up with
the science, but I don't need statistical surveys to know that sitting quietly
now and then is good for me. It's obvious. It can feel excruciating when
you're mind is racing and you're bored or full of self-loathing or whatever,
but beneath all that thinking activity you're strengthening a deeper
capacity—and after 15 minutes, you have a new perspective, bad moods can
dissipate, anxious thoughts dispersed, like Adam on the first morning (as
Whitman wrote).

I'm way far into pretentious zone with meditation and Walt Whitman but
whatever. Best wishes.

------
contingencies
Travel.

~~~
donretag
I just did just that. Traveled the world for ten months. Now I really can't
stand to be at work! I keep thinking of all the next places to go to.

~~~
amyjess
Ditto. In September, I took a road trip to NYC and back. It was my first time
out of town in 6 years. Now all I can think about is how I can't wait to do it
again, and my job bums me out more than ever...

~~~
contingencies
If you're not in debt, quit your job and do a long term trip. You will
probably change your life. If you are in debt, sort that out first, or look at
realistic outcomes for skipping the country.

------
dajohnson89
Perhaps launching a startup will spice things up.

------
rajacombinator
Find something you're interested in and go do it.

------
easp
As others have said, it sounds like you are burned out and depressed.

There are various ways to recover, but there is a good chance it will happen
again unless you make some changes.

A good start would be revisiting your dream.

How old were you when your dream took hold? It sounds like the seeds were
planted when you were a kid and probably in full bloom by the time you got to
college, and was in hand what, within 5 years of graduating?

And then what happened? You got an inkling that your dream and reality weren't
well aligned. Still, you held on to the dream, blamed circumstances, and tried
a new project, but that didn't do the trick.

It doesn't seem though like you've considered the obvious: of course reality
doesn't match your dream, your dream was conceived by a teenager! Of course
you were off the mark!

Forgive yourself for not having it all figured out. Realize that the stuff
that you thought was so important and interesting was only part of the
picture. Realize that your previous enthusiasm wasn't wasted, that many of the
things you invested in still matter, but that you have gaps to fill.

Realize too that missing the mark with your dream is actually a huge
opportunity, because that old dream was limited by your narrow experience. You
now know more about the world. You now realize that there are whole aspects of
the world that you are ignorant of.

Think of how much you have to learn, how much you have to discover! Realize
that this takes a huge burden off you, off your work, your career. Work
doesn't have to be the source of all the meaning in your life. Realize that
its Ok if some days, weeks, or even months, you are just working for the
paycheck, just working so you can find meaning in something else.

Once you've changed the place your work occupies in your life, don't be
surprised if you find yourself looking forward to it again.

As for how to get there? Start changing things in your life, anything at all,
but particularly things that bring you into contact with new people. Every
little change you make shifts your perspective. With enough shifts, you'll
suddenly realize that you see new horizons where before you only saw a blank
wall.

Oh, and you are right, a lot of things in software are unnecessarily complex,
the result of people not learning from the mistakes of the past, of people
adding abstraction to hide complexity, only to produce more complexity, of
people who don't know what they don't know ignorantly, arrogantly forging
ahead, and, of course, the detritus of shifting business strategies in a
shifting landscape. Some of this is inevitable, but that doesn't mean that
there aren't opportunities to clean up some messes and avoid making new ones.

Good luck, you've got time to figure things out, until you don't, at which
point, you aren't.

------
eshwarramesh
Get out of your own way.

------
such_a_casual
Read some books, take up some hobbies, life goes on lil homie.

------
lectrick
You're burnt out. You didn't mention what languages you used but that's a
factor.

Try coming over to the FP camp. We're more fun, and spend less time debugging
because we simply make fewer bugs.

 _After_ you take a vacation!

