
‘Shared Space’ Design: Road Signs Suck. What If We Got Rid of Them All? - misnamed
https://99percentinvisible.org/article/shared-space-design-road-signs-suck-got-rid/
======
deerpig
Here in Phnom Penh, for all intents and purposes there are no rules of the
road. So there are no sidewalks. Sidewalks are for rich people to park their
monster second-hand imported American gas guzzlers. Going up the wrong side in
the wrong direction of the road? No problem. Do you want to do a U turn from
slow lane on a 4 lane highway -- stopping all traffic to do so is the way to
do it. What you find is that it's the 3% of assholes who make a mess for
everyone else.

In Thailand people follow the rules a bit more, but they drive recklessly at
insane speeds. If you're a teenager, it's not cool to use headlights at night
and the first thing you do is remove your mirrors, which no one uses
anyway....

But if you go over the border into Laos there are no rules there either, but
traffic is completely different from Thailand or Cambodia. People drive
slowly, patiently and politely. Lao drivers even put the Japanese to shame and
that's a pretty high bar. Laos is a very laid back place. It's too much effort
for most people to not do otherwise.

Over the last twenty years I've seen things changing in both mainland China
and in Thailand. People are slowly internalizing the rules of the road and
following them more with each new generation. You stay in your lane, and your
side of the road. You don't run stop signs. You wait for the traffic light to
chain to green (or blue in Japan) before you cross a road.

What it comes down to is that rules of the road and road behavior is a
collective body of knowledge that takes time to develop in a society. Once
that knowledge has been internalized and becomes the cultural norm, then
getting rid of traffic signs can work. But there is a learning curve to master
that body of knowledge and a correspondingly greater responsibility that goes
with it.

~~~
icc97
If you look across Europe where most nations have had as much time as the
other to learn the rules (which is now about 100 years), there are still big
differences.

~~~
mmjaa
Cue the difference between German, Austrian, and Hungarian drivers.

Germans: can be very aggressive at times. Austrians, only if you're in the
wrong lane. Hungarians: fear for your life if you ever try to overtake someone
..

~~~
everdev
Some of this is propagation of cultural myths/stereotypes. In a country of
millions of people there will be millions of people that don't conform to
these blanket statements.

In the US, states and cities have their own driving stereotypes that don't fit
neatly into an easily summarized national driving style.

~~~
mmjaa
In my case, direct experience with the driving conditions of all three
countries, over a decade. ;P

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nbmh
I wonder to what extent the reduced accident rate is due to change rather than
'Shared Space' being a better design. The same thing happened when Sweden
switched from driving on the left side of the road to the right. Accident
rates initially dropped but soon rebounded to prior levels.[1]

[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dagen_H](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dagen_H)

~~~
icc97
The scheme has only been going for two years, so yes it would be worth
checking again after say 10 years.

But there are significant differences. From the Wikipedia article:

> Indeed, fatal car-to-car and car-to-pedestrian accidents dropped sharply as
> a result, and the number of motor insurance claims went down by 40%.

> These initial improvements did not last, however. The number of motor
> insurance claims returned to 'normal' over the next six weeks and, by 1969,
> the accident rates were back to the levels seen before the change.

So those results returned to normal over 6 weeks, but the shared spaces were
measured over 2 years. Also the changes were more drastic. 36 accidents over 4
years (9 per year) vs 4 over 2 years (2 per year).

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Animats
Oh, that idea. It got a lot of press in the 1990s when some town in France
tried it. When Redwood City rebuilt their downtown, "Theater Way", in front of
the movie theaters, was built with a curb on one side and no curb on the
other.[1] Restaurants along both sides were allowed to expand onto the
sidewalk and beyond.

The result was a mess. Cars too close to restaurant tables with no barrier.
Heavy planters were put in place. That helped some. Finally, traffic was
blocked off at both ends, and it became entirely a pedestrian area. As a
pedestrian area, it works well. But no one can be dropped off right in front
of the theater.

[1] [http://citydesigncollective.com/urban-design-
services/street...](http://citydesigncollective.com/urban-design-
services/streetscape-design/)

~~~
WWLink
I hate those things. It makes it practically impossible to drop off someone
that has a hard time to walk or whatever.

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chrismealy
Shared space doesn't really work except for places with very little traffic,
and there only if the streets are small enough to make driving difficult and
unpleasant. The Dutch model of providing safe, separated spaces for cycling
and walking is a proven success.

~~~
boulos
The Dutch don't actually provide reasonably separated spaces in Amsterdam
beyond the major wide roads. On the older streets (i.e., the ones you want to
stroll along), it's basically mayhem with pedestrians in danger much of the
time.

Copenhagen is much more "thorough" in this regard, but that's just because
they have far fewer old streets. The fully separated, individual curbs between
car, bicycle, and pedestrian works really well. It's just not "affordable" on
old streets.

~~~
Freak_NL
Don't look at Amsterdam's city centre as a representative example of traffic
in our country. The number of tourists combined with a total disregard for
traffic rules on the part of the natives makes for a rather uncivilized mix.

~~~
icc97
I don't know how true this is, but I find that Dutch and Belgian drivers seem
to have much less regard for traffic laws than the Germans and UK drivers.
Things like not cutting corners and indicating at roundabouts.

One big difference I notice is the amount of space that is between cars.
Germans and UK drivers leave much bigger time gap than Belgians / Dutch.

I spent 10 years driving in the UK and now 7 years driving in Belgium and
occasionally across to Germany / Holland

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namelost
What if we got rid of them all? It turns out that when you remove demarcations
between pedestrians and vehicles, people end up in hospital:

[https://www.dezeen.com/2017/10/09/exhibition-road-
accident-r...](https://www.dezeen.com/2017/10/09/exhibition-road-accident-
review-shared-vehicle-pedestrian-space-emma-dent-coad-london-uk/)

Who would have thought?

------
stmfreak
I suspect this works in a homogeneous culture where everyone has the same
concepts of queues, taking turns, and aversion to line cutting. But in a
heterogenous culture with a mix of people who prioritize self over taking
turns and regularly ignore queues, this would quickly become a disaster.

~~~
beilabs
You just described Kathmandu perfectly. Very few traffic lights were ever
installed, they never really worked due to load shedding. Now with the load
shedding in the city removed these lights only flash orange (sometimes).

Recently there has been a clampdown on people skipping queues, driving on the
wrong side of the road (all positive efforts).

My two rules, same as where I learned to drive on a farm in Ireland; avoid
hitting people, avoid hitting cows. Everything else will take care of
themselves (cars, bikes, buses, trucks).

~~~
matt_the_bass
According to multiple friends that are from Kathmandu, pedestrians are more
like to be killed that injured from cars. The reason is if a driver disables a
pedestrian they need to support them financially for life. But if they kill
them they have a fine with a maximum limit. So it’s often less expensive to
kill someone that to injur them. Therefore there are numerous cases of drivers
hitting a pedestrian, not killing them, then running them down again to make
sure they die.

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joshuaheard
In the early part of the nineteenth century, there were no signs, signals, or
lane markers. It was a true shared space with cars, pedestrians, and even
horses, since cars were so new. However, over many generations, safety
concerns caused our traffic system to evolve in what we have today.

Rapidly going back to the original anarchy may have an initial success due to
the novelty of it, but I think we should not give up on the system that has
evolved successfully over time.

Also, we are about to embark on a fundamental redesign of our traffic system
with autonomous vehicles, so maybe we should wait and see.

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khedoros1
> The concept is that the absence of separation will make everyone more
> cautious — so commuters slow down, make eye contact, and negotiate.

That's a part of town that I think I'd just avoid when possible, and hate when
I couldn't avoid it. It sounds confusing and nerve-wracking. Most people are
reasonable. The rest are terrifying, when they're in a car and you're on foot.

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viraptor
The Poynton example seems strange. Maybe the signs as such were removed, but
what they did was basically to convert from an intersection with lights to a
roundabout. The roundabout clearly exists, even if the sign doesn't. People in
the UK know very well how to default to that behaviour, so I wouldn't say it's
really a shared space.

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icc97
Belgium has what I consider a very bad system of priority from the right.
Often what this means is that they just don't bother to put in any signs on
junctions where they can't be bothered. Then who ever comes from the right has
priority.

The problem is that this is similar to having a mini roundabout (which are
fairly common in the UK), but there as with regular roundabouts in Belgium the
priority is from the left.

Further this is made worse by what seems to be very little desire of the
Belgian drivers to consistently follow the law. So some police will use
priority from the right, some won't. Some drivers are very agressive with it
some aren't. Some look some don't.

Some junctions have had the lines fade, so it looks like there is no
preference but in fact there is.

On some roads you have a straight wide road and a small street from the right
that has priority.

Personally I find all this confusion just makes driving far more stressful
than it is compared to the UK. There every junction (except for this 'shared
spaces') are all clearly marked.

There is also a big difference in the UK that, from what I have seen, the
drivers there follow the rules much better. But I suspect some of this comes
down to the extra frustration that the average Belgian driver has to go
through.

------
mannykannot
"The concept is that the absence of separation will make everyone more
cautious — so commuters slow down, make eye contact, and negotiate."

Where I live, we are moving steadily in the "fuck you, I'm special" direction,
so this isn't likely to work until we have autonomous vehicles.

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hobofan
Oh, so this explains one of the worst intersections in Berlin. I always
wondered, why there were no street signs etc. at Checkpoint Charlie, one of
the biggest tourist attractions here. After reading/watching the article and
researching it online, it seems that it was converted into a "shared space" in
2014/2015, shortly before I moved to Berlin.

It might be just a bad implementation of the concept because you have a little
vision into the other streets at the intersection, or because it is such a
crowded space at any time, but the status quo is utter chaos. I've personally
seen many near-accidents there, and I go out of my way to avoid it.

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Mountain_Skies
Hopefully we don't get rid of the 'Bridge Out Ahead' signs.

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vadimberman
Works in small places without much traffic, more laid-back and reasonable
people, in a bright summer day only.

Basically, solves the issue of traffic when the traffic is not an issue.

~~~
icc97
> Basically, solves the issue of traffic when the traffic is not an issue.

As per the stats they gave at 3:40 in video [0], in Ipswich it fell from 23
accidents in 3 years to 1 per year. So it is almost entirely solving the issue
of accidents, which is the primary driver for installing them.

Once you get down to 1 per year you can start to investigate individual
accidents more thoroughly and put in specific smaller scale fixes.

[0]:
[https://youtu.be/VUbsFtLkGN8?t=3m40s](https://youtu.be/VUbsFtLkGN8?t=3m40s)

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alew1
How do blind people navigate these spaces?

~~~
csydas
Right now it looks like they don't, but if the city wanted to it could. I
visited seoul last year and one of the coolest things for me was that in most
of the city they had a small yellow rubber path along most all sidewalks,
roads, and metro stations; the path had several small ridges which ran
parallel to the path.

At first my partner and I had no idea why these were here until we were taking
a walk on Namsan mountain and saw some blind folk strolling freely along the
roads using the path to navigate with their walking sticks. It was incredible
once we realized the extent of this network and how much freedom it added for
those with vision problems. Still not sure if that is why the paths were there
but their use by citizens was clear.

I dont know if it would help in a free-for-all space like this, but cities
could help their citizens with disabilities better.

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moron4hire
I'd be very curious to see these discussions also take into account the road
situation in countries other than those in Europe and the US. I've heard many
a tale of driving conditions in—just for example—the dense urban areas of
India that would turn this assumption completely on its head.

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Theodores
Cars and the internal combustion engine coupled with easy finance is the
problem. Cars as we have them today have to go and the new self-driving robot
cars powered on electricity really do have to take over soon.

I can go out and spend £££ hiring a fancy car today and spend the next three
years crawling around town looking for somewhere to park the thing, spewing
fumes into the faces of the kids going to school. So long as I pay the taxes
nobody is going to complain about the noise and pollution.

Is it not possible for at least one country on planet earth to restrict the
total number of ICE cars? If you had to scrap a car to buy a new car then the
total number of cars would not go up, the roads would not get any heavier for
people who already have a car so there is self interest for everyone. New
electric self-driving options could cater for young people who do not already
own cars.

Coupled with this there could be a reduction in on-street parking, so you can
then have roads that can be safe for cyclists and not lined with tin boxes on
each side.

~~~
icc97
I too wish that we could basically get all amateur drivers off the roads and
replace them with with automated electric cars.

But there are problems. One of the issues with self driving cars is that
traffic will probably go up because all elderly people (as well as disabled)
can now buy a self driving car.

Cars are a major source of freedom for people, so trying to restrict what you
can do with them is going to be political suicide.

One of the things I thought about was only allowing professional (i.e. taxi,
bus, lorry) and automatic cars on motorways. This should reduce accidents on
motorways to almost zero which certainly here in Belgium is a massive cause of
economic loss through time wasted stuck in traffic. But even this I doubt is
possible. You'd have to have some massively expensive / privacy invading
system to police it.

