
Chinese University Tops MIT in Engineering Rankings - jimsojim
http://blogs.wsj.com/chinarealtime/2015/10/08/chinese-university-tops-mit-in-engineering-rankings/?mod=e2fb
======
redwood
Seeing everyone on here so dismissive is simply shocking to me. If you don't
like these results or don't believe them look at the overall trend folks. A
decade ago there wouldn't have been the Chinese University in the top 10. Now
they have half the top rankings. I take my hat off to them; I respect their
achievements and if you follow the trend forward they look unstoppable.and of
the people at these universities they or their parents grew up in villages
without electricity with nothing. they've built out of that the ability to
scratch the stars quickly. much respect let's hope this doesn't turn into a
latent Cold War

~~~
blisterpeanuts
BA/MA in Chinese studies here. I greatly admire China's accomplishments,
starting back around 1,000 BC :)

China today is on a trajectory of becoming the premier world technological
power, simply based on its tremendous energy and drive and respect for
learning.

The U.S. and Europe are in decline, by comparison. The U.S. in particular is
relying heavily on Chinese and other foreign students to keep its science,
math, and engineering graduate programs going. The native U.S. population is
lazy and unmotivated by comparison.

And tellingly, increasing numbers of Chinese grads are returning to China to
work rather than seeking citizenship in the U.S. Even non-Chinese are flocking
to China to start up technology companies, something unheard of a generation
or two back.

I too hope this doesn't turn into some kind of cold war.

~~~
vixen99
'The U.S. and Europe are in decline, by comparison'. No argument about this.
Where are the passionate national debates about why this is so and what can be
done about it? Or maybe they are going on and I'm not seeing them.

~~~
olalonde
[http://blog.samaltman.com/china](http://blog.samaltman.com/china)

------
_chris_
"Each school’s score is based on its number of publications and citations as
well as its global and regional research reputation."

Oh lord... one is easy to game, and the other is a self-fulfilling prophecy.

~~~
bsder
Exactly, so MIT has clearly been ...

Oh, wait, you mean you were implying that Tsinghua University was gaming the
rankings ...

MIT students, in my experience, have been overrated for years.

~~~
nolok
He is not claiming one or the other is gaming it, he is saying this is a
terrible set of metrics to rank universities with

~~~
warkid
"Ok, they've outplayed us in our game. Lets call this game terrible and start
a different one with new rules!"

~~~
nolok
See my other comment before attributing malice to my words. As a french, I've
never in my life found the rules to be any good as they were biased against us
and other non english speaking country (imho).

~~~
globuous
Except of course for the "Mines ParisTech : Professional Ranking of World
Universities" :D
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mines_ParisTech_:_Professional...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mines_ParisTech_:_Professional_Ranking_of_World_Universities)

Which is actually a really interesting ranking. Not based on academic research
whatsoever.

------
netcan
So… Everyone is righty pointing out the uselessness of ranking systems. But,
these are also the same kinds of ranking systems that place MIT, Cambridge,
Stanford & the rest in the elite. Publication, reputation, etc. It's not about
a specific ranking system either. Every ranking uses circular, subjective or
self fulfilling measures. These reputations are also very long lived and carry
outside of their context. Great research in biology does not really indicate
great undergraduate teaching in the humanities.

Universities attract students, funding, press and all the other goodies with
their reputations. Students then trade on these reputations. It's a big
problem overall, and it doesn't have good feedback loops of the kind which
will encourage universities to improve.

Also, the more attention the rankings get, the more they get gamed and
corrupted.

Here's the thing, say you are looking for a place to study mechanical
engineering, it will be difficult to find the new upstart schools that are
doing great work. It's even harder to get employers, parents and colleagues to
respect it. That's to say nothing of a course attempting to teach a subject
like engineering outside the paradigm of Universities altogether.

It's a pickle.

The world is way too big for us to rely on a vague name recognition &
reputation system anymore. It's too dynamic to wait for them to self correct
and it's way too thirsty for better ways to train and educate to be without a
dynamic system where new approaches and institutions can emerge.

------
blisterpeanuts
The Weibuo quote in the article sums it up. Would you rather have your child
go to Tsinghua or MIT? The fact is, MIT remains the most prestigious
scientific and engineering school in the world, and number of published
articles be damned.

Another metric not considered by USNWR is academic freedom. Can students and
faculty at Tsinghua use Google? I don't think so. No Google Scholar, no Google
Books, not even Search. How ridiculous. Without equal access to the Internet,
a fair comparison is not possible. And what if a student published an article
complaining about lack of access to some internet resources? End of career.

That said, this evaluation should be a wake up call to American educators that
our formerly great academy has deteriorated, brought down by decades of
decaying performance in K-12 and lack of energy and commitment in the
universities, where many or most of the science and engineering graduate
students are foreign born.

~~~
seanmcdirmid
They usually know how to jump the wall or get direct lines out for erm
research purposes. ChinaSys, an acedemic/industry systems conference, is
taking registrations in... Google docs.

I hope this is not a wake up call: what we don't need in academia is more
gaming of the publication and citation system! This is a wake up call to not
take usnews too seriously.

~~~
blisterpeanuts
Interesting. I guess when it's a matter of national prestige and encouraging
scientific accomplishment, the authorities might look the other way. But
that's not really the same as complete and open access.

And I agree with you that we don't need even more gaming of the system; but we
definitely need more motivation of K-12 students in the math and science
fields.

~~~
seanmcdirmid
The "motivation" should come from a genuine curiosity and interest in making
the world a better place. Academia, even western academia, is often motivated
by securing more funding so they can....secure more funding. That creates a
closed loop that serves no one outside of it.

The US News report just shows who is better at gaming the system. Heck, even
MIT has its problems, though you'll find more pockets of genuine interest and
capabilities. Tsinghua also has a lot of great researchers, but usually this
is inspite of, not because of, the games played to optimize for these metrics.

------
morphis
China only has two prestigious universities, Peking and Tsing Hua. They
collect all financial and political support to make these two universities
rank higher and higher, not only to save face on the international stage, but
also to make sure all intelligence is under the control of Beijing. They may
really have reached success in winning global reputation, but the chance for
their research to turn into benefit for common people will be very small.

------
iconhacker
American education based on sales. It sells knowledge and that is why it is
going downhill. Being politically correct on races is another curse. And don't
talk about creativity when you students cannot do math on paper!

~~~
blumkvist
It is? Can you provide some evidence?

------
melling
If it's true, as a matter of national pride, let's hope other countries join
the race to have the top ranked engineering university. We could use a dozen
more MIT's in the world.

------
echevil
It'd be more interesting to see a ranking by only the average competitiveness
of their undergraduate school students, and I bet you will see lots of Chinese
and Indian university on top and American Universities are not anywhere close.

America has so many good universities but at the same time just a small talent
pool.

------
somberi
For some Indians who may be invested in knowing the rankings, there are 9 of
them with the first one starting at 100th position (IIT-D). Ouch.

------
suryon
To those that believe that US system is rotten and ineffective and think that
Chinese are doing something right because they are Chinese I can tell you only
one thing. NEVER TRUST A COMMUNIST REGIME.

Even if you compare millionaires to millionaires the quality of life in China
is far worse than in the USA. Never trust a communist propaganda. Never ever
do that. The gov and chinese in general are known for trying to save face at
every occasion and will fabricate anything that can benefit them.

If USA and UK is so bad then why thousands of Chinese are trying to immigrate
there ? In Communist regime even if you are good and talented you will become
a property of the state and they will use you for their benefit. Do not expect
a good quality life but constant abuse for more propaganda and mind control.

No wonder that massive amount of people of Hong Kong are requesting british
passports. Because in China you are nothing more than a property of a regime.

~~~
tormeh
Ahahaha! China is not the Soviet Union. It's a capitalist society like almost
anywhere else, and I'm positive that being rich in China rocks (apart from the
air pollution).

~~~
suryon
Then you obviously have no idea what you are talking about. And the air
pollution in China is something you can't imagine. The VW scandal is nothing
compared to chinese air pollution.

And China is far worse than the former Soviet Union because they have more
money and more control. Being lower class in China is far worse than in former
states of the soviet union.

~~~
Tinyyy
You talk a whole lot, but you've never addressed his point that "it would rock
being rich in China". (I am not taking a side).

~~~
suryon
Being rich does not guarantee that you will have a good life anywhere. There
are numerous other things you have to consider. Yes a rich man can buy a big
land for himself and build a wall to keep the beggars outside. He can even
move to the countryside and never go out or use a private jets / helicopters.

The thing is that China is a home for a lot of people and is too polluted and
crowded because of wealth distribution. If people do not care about the
environment, intellectual property and a countless of other things then being
rich and filthy rich are too different things.

A wealthy man can walk the streets of european/american cities without
worrying too much about its health or not having a space for himself without
guards. Do not forget that european / us cities are dwarves compared to Asia
in general.

The movie Elysium is a good picture (maybe too exaggerated but hey) of people
being wealthy in China.

Yes you can have a good life in a golden cage but it's still a cage.

~~~
olalonde
Compared to the US, China has a lot less of both violent crime and beggars.
I'm sorry but it seems you don't know what you are talking about.

~~~
suryon
First of all you know nothing about me and that's fine.

Second just because you live in Hong Kong or Shenzhen it does not mean you
know anything about China. Especially these 2 do not reflect anything at all
about China. And that is fine that might be the reason why have you chosen
them and not the other places in China.

Third. You do not seem to speak the Chinese language.

Fourth. Just because you have a positive prejudice towards China does not mean
you are right.

Fifth. If you would know something about authoritarian regimes and especially
China or NK you would know that hiding and punishing beggars is a common
practice to save face.

Sixth. Please educate me how country of 1.3bn has a lot less beggars and
violent crimes than US a country of 320m.

Seventh. If you have never lived in a communist country you surely can't be
aware of propaganda and hiding of crimes. Ask some chinese friends of yours
how hiding crimes, especially the violent ones goes in China. How it was in
every communist state. You will be surprised.

Eighth. I understand you like China/Chinese more than Americans but do not
close your eyes before the crimes of these regimes I am begging you. For all
of those that died and suffered in gulags

Ninth. I recommend you to visit countryside and especially the northern region
if you have the balls.

~~~
echevil
If you love American life just stay here and no one is asking you to move to
China.

There are tons of people (not necessarily rich) prefer living in China than in
America. They just care about different things.

As a Chinese citizen living in San Francisco right now, I would say the
overall living quality in America is no where near as good as in China. If not
for the prosperous software industry here, there is no reason to stay in
America at all.

China has its problems but America has its own too. The same goes both for the
society and the government. I do feel a lot safer walking down the streets in
China, and air pollution has never been a big issue. What you see on news
headlines are not what you see everyday.

~~~
suryon
I am not going to try to convince you that's none of my business. You are
either coming from top 10% of talented chinese or your family was simply rich.
90% chinese can't afford what you can.

And air pollution is not problem in China ? Are you kidding me ? Just ask my
any korean in Seoul how air pollution from China is not a problem. And THAT IS
SEOUL that's being hit by chinese air pollution.

The pollution in chinese cities is too big to not consider it an issue.

~~~
echevil
I'm not saying air pollution is not a problem at all. It may had gone really
bad in a few major cities a few times, but it's not something everyone gets to
experience. The overall air quality is not top notch but it's also not so bad
as many of the Americans think. There are many things I hate about China but
air pollution won't even be in the list.

Comparing to that I'm bothered a lot more here about the prevalence of guns,
drugs, high crime rates, the unfairness in education (how many ivy league
students come from poor families?), ridiculously expensive medical system, so
many bullshit in the law, government wasting so much money while getting
almost nothing done... I'd happily trade air pollution with solution to any of
these problems. Sometimes it's just funny to see how Americans could be okay
to accept all of that really well, some may not even realize these are all
appalling problems, while they still give such a big fuss about air pollution
in China.

