
Thor Electric Truck Will Probably Beat Tesla’s to Market - devy
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-12-13/this-electric-truck-will-probably-beat-tesla-s-to-market
======
ProfessorLayton
Semis are incredibly damaging to roads, they cause 1,400x more wear than cars!
[1]

It seems that with current battery technology, electric semis' average weight
is going to increase drastically, even if they remain within the allowable GVW
limit. For example, a Model S weighs more than a Honda Pilot, due to the
1,200lb battery [2]! . Without the diesel tax, we're going to have to figure
out another way to pay for road usage.

Right now semis are heavily subsidized by everyone else (They're certainly not
paying 1,400x more in fuel tax). And I suppose it would be unfair to continue
to subsidize diesel, and not electric. However, as our infrastructure decays
we're going to have to figure this out.

[1] [https://www.lrrb.org/pdf/201432.pdf](https://www.lrrb.org/pdf/201432.pdf)
[2]
[http://www.roperld.com/science/teslamodels.htm](http://www.roperld.com/science/teslamodels.htm)

~~~
xpda
The Tesla Model S weighs significantly less than most pickups and large SUVs
on the road today. Tesla's heaviest, the Model X, is significantly lighter
than the GMC Yukon, for example.

I don't see the logic in this argument. Electric vehicles are not going to
destroy the roads.

~~~
aggie
Road maintenance is funded primarily through taxation of gas and diesel [1].
As electric vehicles don't use either, they do not pay a proportional share of
the cost to maintain roads. The fuel tax has been an elegant funding solution
because it scales both with mileage and vehicle weight (as heavier vehicles
use more fuel).

Further, electric vehicles weigh more than comparable gas or diesel vehicles,
making the ratio of road wear to tax contribution even more disparate.

Even if you agree electric vehicles are good for society overall, we will need
to find a new way to fund road maintenance.

[1]
[http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0967070X16...](http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0967070X16301482)

~~~
photojosh
Ditch the fuel tax, and instead have an annual registration tax based on
distance travelled and vehicle weight? Could also incorporate lesser factors
like efficiency, and likely to be a subsidy for heavy vehicles. Of course the
beauty of fuel tax that it incorporates all of those factors already, and you
get easy, regular collection.

As to the sister comment on how do we pay for the extra electricity
infrastructure... through your electricity bill?

~~~
Tuna-Fish
> have an annual registration tax based on distance travelled

Now the hard part is getting accurate distance traveled figures from all road
users. Good luck with that.

> As to the sister comment on how do we pay for the extra electricity
> infrastructure... through your electricity bill?

Yes, and the system is breaking down because of solar. Typically, most of what
you pay for electricity goes towards maintaining the line to your house, not
towards generation. When you get solar panels that cover most of your usage,
but keep the connection for use when the sun does not shine, your bill goes
down to the point where it's no longer enough to maintain your grid
connection.

The correct solution to that is to disaggregate transmission and generation,
and for transmission bill you for the size of your main incoming fuse instead
of consumption. However, in much of the US the utilities are heavily
constrained in how they bill you by law, and cannot do this, so the only thing
they can do is hike up prices on everyone, so solar is even more appealing and
more people get it, resulting in even higher prices...

~~~
edent
In the UK (and many other countries) each vehicle has a mandatory yearly
inspection.

The MOT test in the UK checks emissions, roadworthiness, basic functionality.
No reason why it couldn't also report mileage.

Most modern cars provide an API so you can track mileage. Again, not hard to
provide that as a taxable figure.

~~~
Reason077
_" The MOT test in the UK checks emissions"_

Unfortunately the UK does not have proper emissions checks as part of the MOT.

There is a (subjective) visual check for visible smoke, and a metered exhaust
check which again only tests generically for "smoke", ie large particulates.

Unfortunately there is no testing of specific pollutants (NOx, PM2.5, PM10,
etc) so many vehicles can pass MOT even if they are way outside allowed
emissions levels, have had DPF removed, etc.

------
Animats
This makes sense. Electric delivery trucks have been available for decades.
Battery powered "milk floats" used to be big in the UK. UPS and the USPS may
go for this. Both use their own semi-custom vehicles, and those vehicles spend
much of their time stationary while the driver gets out and delivers.

UPS is already doing that, but not with these guys.[1] There are other
electric van startups, but they have bullshit no-shipping-product startup
sites.[2][3] The real player seems to be Damlier, which is electrifying the
Mercedes line of vans.[3]

[1] [https://electrek.co/2017/11/10/ups-converting-battery-
electr...](https://electrek.co/2017/11/10/ups-converting-battery-electric-
delivery-trucks-new-york/)

[2] [http://www.chanje.us/vehicles](http://www.chanje.us/vehicles)

[3] [http://fortune.com/2017/11/20/mercedes-benz-vans-electric-
da...](http://fortune.com/2017/11/20/mercedes-benz-vans-electric-daimler/) [3]
[http://workhorse.com/](http://workhorse.com/)

~~~
raisedbyninjas
USPS should be replacing their trucks. They're all a minimum of 20 years old
and get 10 mpg.

~~~
athenot
I get the idea their trucks are also very easily serviceable.

Found this[1] after a quick Google: apparently they are called Long Life
Vehicles precisely for that reason—but yes there are caveats and they might
strongly benefit from EV versions.

[1] [https://www.greatbusinessschools.org/usps-long-life-
vehicle/](https://www.greatbusinessschools.org/usps-long-life-vehicle/)

~~~
r00fus
This may sound like Ubuntu LTS, but in reality it's a guarantee of consistency
mainly (also doesn't hurt that it's essentially jobs guarantee for the
Congresscritter who has jurisdiction).

Governments don't necessarily want things to be as cheap as possible but do
require consistent pricing and parts availability.

In no way does it guarantee "easily or cheaply serviceable" and hybridizing or
electrifying the fleet would almost certainly make it cheaper to maintain it
by any calculation.

------
jandrese
They have 18 people and do custom work on every truck? Beating Tesla to market
may be moot if you can only build a dozen of them a year.

~~~
bovermyer
Sounds a lot like a startup. The question is going to be, "will they scale?"

~~~
peterjlee
Software is relatively easy to scale. Manufacturing small electronic devices
can also be scaled by outsourcing to factories in China (even Apple does it).
Scaling automotive production seems a lot harder. There aren't a lot of car
factories out there waiting for some car company to make an order. Building
your own factory can take billions of dollars and years to complete. Even
Tesla is struggling with scaling production.

~~~
digikata
If their modifications work, then couldn't an existing truck manufacturing
company purchase them and integrate the tech into their existing line?

~~~
an_account
It might not be able to mass produce their changes. Vehicles are designed
around the production line. Think ikea flat pack furniture vs a custom carved
table.

~~~
digikata
That's what hardware "design for manufacture" product stages are all about.
But no one puts money into that unless there's some knowable value in putting
forth that effort. So if a startup proves the value, then a vehicle
manufacturer could be willing to do that redesign and integration.

------
jpm_sd
The photo of a single lithium-ion cell getting a tab spot-welded on by hand is
worrisome. That is very-early-prototype stage kind of stuff. If they want to
"beat Tesla to market" they should have a fully automated battery production
line by now.

~~~
dragontamer
Like Tesla's "fully automated" hand-crafted Model 3 line?

[https://www.wsj.com/articles/behind-teslas-production-
delays...](https://www.wsj.com/articles/behind-teslas-production-delays-parts-
of-model-3-were-being-made-by-hand-1507321057)

~~~
jpm_sd
"Hand-crafted" body welding is VERY different from hand-crafting a truck-sized
battery pack that contains thousands of small cylindrical cells.

The Tesla battery design has used automated cell welding for many years now.

------
atonse
Ah the half dozen products I dream of building if I could just fund my bills a
year or two. :-)

(I'm referring to the fact that the founder is really rich from his family's
businesses and has self-funded the whole endeavor)

~~~
cantrip
You dream of building an electric semi truck to beat Tesla to market? If
that's in your range I don't think you're currently in the right field,
whatever you're doing.

~~~
atonse
haha no, the article talks about the guy being really rich (from his family's
defense electronics business) and funding the whole business out of his
pocket.

That's what I'm referring to.

------
abakker
Not to be confused with Thor Industries -
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thor_Industries](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thor_Industries)
which manufactures RVs and motor coaches.

~~~
IncRnd
Having owned a very cost effective and enjoyable Thor, I thought the same
thing when I saw the headline.

Thank you for the reminder.

------
slivym
These guys are not doing what Tesla are doing.

Tesla as a company is focused on building a manufacturing plant that is
capable of producing Electric Semi Trucks. That's what they're working on.
Electric Trucks is the product of the thing they're working on.

These guys are working on making Electric Trucks.

The more apt comparison is that these guys are competing with the robots that
will go in Musk's factory.

------
thisisit
I wonder, if there has been a discussion on serviceability of these trucks
because that is one of the major selling points.

> but dramatic advances in battery technology, electric motors, and control
> software have made electric trucks more practical.

So, if someone wants to learn more about the battery technology and control
softwares, where to start?

