
Australia fast-tracks plan to send solar power to Singapore - riffraff
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-07-29/australia-fast-tracks-plan-to-send-solar-power-to-singapore
======
jiggawatts
Did anyone notice how cheap this is? Ten gigawatts at AUD $16B is roughly the
same as 1 GW per USD $1B. Compare that to, say, a nuclear power plant, where a
single 1 GW plant might cost five to ten billion after all of the approvals
and the interest on the loan.

If the price estimate is correct, Singapore would be crazy _not_ to do it. The
only issue I see is the risk of cable cuts and future geopolitical changes.

Unfortunately, within Australia, coal is currently so cheap that even low-cost
solar can't really compete.

~~~
hokkos
That is a 10GW solar array, at 22% capacity factor, so comparable to 2
VVER-1200 with a $12B contract like Rooppur, also the solar panels/batteries
will last 20-25 years and the VVER 60.

~~~
toomuchtodo
> also the solar panels/batteries will last 20-25 years and the VVER 60

The solar array and battery storage (all of which can be recycled today with
existing recycling techniques) will be built on time, begin generating on
time, and will generate no nuclear waste nor require fuel (besides sunlight)
during its operating lifetime. It takes over 10 years to build a VVER-1200
reactor [1] (any fission reactor, really), if you can even get the reactor to
the finish line.

[1] [https://www.world-nuclear-news.org/NN-First-
VVER-1200-reacto...](https://www.world-nuclear-news.org/NN-First-
VVER-1200-reactor-enters-commercial-operation-02031701.html)

~~~
alex_young
> will generate no nuclear waste

Very important point, especially when we're considering costs.

What are the lifetime costs associated with storing the spent fuel? In
practice, the only way to get reactors built, is for the public to 100%
subsidize the long term consequences.

~~~
devdas
Or recycle the fuel.

~~~
alex_young
Sure, that would be an option. Thus far even the US government is not
exploring this option, mostly due to very high costs, but also due to weapons
grade byproducts of most existing reprocessing methods.

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gumby
Compare to DESERTEC, a plan to send power from North African solar farms under
the Mediterranean to Europe with huge DC cables. They’ve been at it a while
and I haven’t seen any signed of progress in a decade.

It’s possible AU+SG May have more organizational success. Only two players,
both OECD countries. But the technical hurdles remain immense.

[https://www.desertec.org/](https://www.desertec.org/)

~~~
threatripper
Problem is the fragile political situation in North Africa and the reluctance
of the European militaries to ensure stability with force.

~~~
markdown
> the reluctance of the European militaries to ensure stability with force.

You say that like it's a bad thing.

~~~
pizza234
Well, it can't say it's bad, but it may not be realistic. Don't forget the
famous war that was supposed to "ensure stability with force", and that's been
lasting for almost 20 year. Things are certainly more complicated there, but
it's fair to be skeptical that force can bring stability.

~~~
EdwardDiego
Reminds me of the Vietnam era "Fighting for peace is like fucking for
virginity"

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iso1210
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australia%E2%80%93ASEAN_Power_...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australia%E2%80%93ASEAN_Power_Link)

10GW plant with a 30GWh battery. The enormous South Australia battery Musk put
in is about 125MWh - 0.5% of that size.

~~~
briffle
It would be interesting to see those huge tesla batteries on a large
ship,(like a retired oil supertanker) charging at one point, and discharging
at the destination. Leave enough to power the ship back home, and just have
several of them. Probably not as efficient as power lines, but could go to
multiple destinations.

~~~
teruakohatu
Singapore is already supplied with energy from ships (natural gas). So energy
density will determine how many ships would be required. Depending on
conversion efficiency, we are talking 50-150x as many lipo ships as natural
gas ships.

If Singapore only needed one natural gas very large super tanker, we would
need to increase the global feet of super tankers by 7-20% just to ship
electrical energy to Singapore.

~~~
baybal2
Lets do the math:

Cheap LFP batteries get around 160-170wh/kg.

Largest supertankers have net tonnage of around 250000.

250000000 * 170 = 42.5GWH.

Quite respectable. Karadeniz (the biggest floating powerplant operator) has
actually floated the idea.

~~~
Reason077
Another option for "shipping electricity" is compressed hydrogen. Electricity
+ water goes in at one end (electrolysis), then converts back to electricity +
water at the other (fuel cells).

Hydrogen has significant inefficiencies and conversion losses compared to
batteries, but the energy density is much higher (up to 40,000 Wh/kg)

~~~
lostlogin
There is mention in this thread of solar power prices going negative for
suppliers at times. This would make suggestions like this even more
favourable.

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grizzles
This is a political project. It's difficult to consider it otherwise in a
rational decision making context.

Any engineer would take one look at this and go yep, let's put a nuclear
reactor on one or more of Singapore's 64 surrounding islands.

Singapore could get oodles of solar from Malaysia but they obviously aren't
interested in doing that. Since the guys financing it have no qualms about
fronting this project obviously Singapore is keen to fund this project as a
customer but wants to be seen for some reason as a reluctant buyer.

~~~
skissane
> Singapore could get oodles of solar from Malaysia but they obviously aren't
> interested in doing that

To anyone who knows the history of Singapore, it is obvious why (and you quite
possibly already know all this, but I'm sure many other people reading this
don't). Singapore became independent because the Malaysian government wanted
to introduce "affirmative action" laws which discriminated against ethnic
minorities, especially ethnic Chinese. Singapore was the only state of
Malaysia with an ethnic Chinese majority, and was fundamentally opposed to
such laws. The Malaysian federal government's response was to expel Singapore
from Malaysia and force it to become an independent country, so that it would
be free to impose these laws on the rest of Malaysia without Singapore's
opposition. And Singapore has never trusted Malaysia since.

~~~
sushshshsh
And has similarly discriminated against Malays in Singapore to this day! The
messy knife of history cuts both ways.

~~~
skissane
Is that really true? Malaysia has official policies to give preference to the
ethnic Malay majority in education, government jobs, business licensing, etc.
Singapore's formal policies on those matters are, to the best of my knowledge,
ethnically and racially neutral. I'm sure ethnic minorities in Singapore
suffer from some degree of informal discrimination (as they do in many other
countries), but I don't believe they suffer from anything like the active
discrimination as an official policy which the Malaysian government imposes.

~~~
9nGQluzmnq3M
There is some governmental discrimination, notably in the military (Malays are
effectively excluded from sensitive positions) and granting
residency/citizenship (reportedly virtually impossible for ethnic Malays from
Malaysia or Indonesia). Both are officially denied though, and yes, these are
nowhere near as wide-ranging as Malaysia's policies.

[https://coconuts.co/singapore/features/ns50-celebrates-50-ye...](https://coconuts.co/singapore/features/ns50-celebrates-50-years-
of-national-service-but-conveniently-forgets-its-past-discrimination-against-
malays/)

~~~
sushshshsh
If an ethnic Chinese Singaporean marries a Malaysian Malay, the Singaporean
government will cite every rule in the book about income requirements and
"suitability".

But if we're talking Malaysian Chinese....

People need to stop worshipping Singapore like they are a fantasy land of
perfection. They have specific flaws of their own, plus flaws similar to other
countries.

~~~
hnick
I'm not sure if that is anti-Malay so much as pro-Chinese.

An older friend told a story of a colleague he worked with in Vietnam who got
married and tried to move back to Singapore. Multiple attempts to let his wife
come along were rejected until he amended the paperwork to say she was Chinese
ethnicity.

Might be a tall tale, but that's how it was told to me. I don't know the exact
years in question though, it might have been a decade or more ago.

~~~
9nGQluzmnq3M
There are no stats published, so this is all anecdotal, but it's generally
suspected that they operate on some kind of quota basis. The Chinese quota is
large (but no longer infinite, esp for mainland Chinese), the Indian/Other
quota is small, and the Malay/Muslim quota is nearly zero.

------
aaron695
This makes no sense, with Atlassian being involved I'd double down on that
statement.

But it's actually very cool. Like sending a person to the moon it pushes
science forward. It's not another dumb shove more solar panels on houses idea.

It allows Australia a lot of power over Singapore and the region which is good
for them.

I guess the question is what's the side ways difference between NT and
Singapore? It's a one and half hour time zone difference. How much peak/off
peak/day time advantage do they get with the the different sun times.

Why this over Perth? (I'd guess it's a simple power lines in the ocean is
cheaper)

~~~
tomglynch
Interesting point - laying cables along a circle of latitude with a 4 hour
time difference would mean the peak solar power at one location would power
the other locations peak usage (6pm - 9pm). However, a 4 hour time difference
is pretty substantial in terms of length of cables. I wonder if Australia
could do this between Perth and the South East (Melbourne, Sydney).

~~~
aaron695
This project is further, the distance between Darwin and Singapore is more
than Perth and Melbourne. This project wastes distance going north.

Laying cables overland would be an order of magnitude more unless you could do
fibre at the same time to make it cheaper or something.

But the route by sea is still shorter between Perth and Melbourne.

[https://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=distance+darwin+singap...](https://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=distance+darwin+singapore)

[https://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=perth+to+melbourne+dis...](https://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=perth+to+melbourne+distance)

[https://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=perth+to+melbourne+dis...](https://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=perth+to+melbourne+distance+by+sea)

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newyankee
I wonder if a self sustaining solar plant can be set up in a desert with a
factory powered by solar energy manufacturing solar panels with the sand and
then being installed piece by piece. The stuff that will be needed to be
brought from outside will be water (if a lot is needed), aluminum and concrete
for the support structure and other metals in the solar panel. Surely a crazy
project converting the hypothetical 100 miles x 100 miles square in Nevada or
some other desert might be more feasible. It is okay even if this takes 10
years as long as the process is made sustainable to the extent possible.

~~~
01100011
Why do you need concrete? Can't you just sinter the sand grains together?

~~~
avmich
Like this?
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ptUj8JRAYu8](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ptUj8JRAYu8)

A popular video a few years ago which demonstrate, uhm, a 3D printing of
models out of sand.

~~~
01100011
Yeah, exactly. I love that video. I wish someone would combine the wind
powered sculptures of Theo Jansen with a solar sinterer. Let them roam the
sahara and turn it back into solid ground... or buildings and monuments.

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iandanforth
Can someone break down some numbers here for me? What kind of voltage do you
need to move that distance? Will this create huge magnetic fields along the
cable under the ocean? (Yes I know almost nothing about electricity :)

~~~
bob1029
They're using HVDC technology.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-
voltage_direct_current](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-
voltage_direct_current)

~~~
rjsw
And Australia already has experience [1] of building that type of link.

[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basslink](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basslink)

~~~
Reason077
Basslink is a fairly run-of-the-mill HVDC interconnector by world standards at
500 MW and 370 km.

The longest undersea interconnector currently under construction is the North
Sea Link between the UK and Norway (700 km, 1400 MW):
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Sea_Link](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Sea_Link)

At 3700 km, Australia-ASEAN would be far beyond the length of anything that
has been built or considered to date!

