

Talismans of Productivity: Or give up coffee. - nickluft
http://www.impudent.org.uk/TalismansOfProductivity.htm

======
llimllib
> All I ask is this. Try going without caffeine for a month. And when you
> have, then write to me and tell me if it did or didn't work.

Didn't. I do it for about a month every year, and for me it doesn't make any
difference.

~~~
nickluft
Lucky you. Some people are more effected by caffeine than others. My eldest
daughter reports similar ups and downs as I do, my other daughter reports no
large effects.

Must be genetic, then.

~~~
pella
_"Some people get jumpy after drinking a single cup of coffee, while others
can gulp down a Venti Americano without feeling a thing. Part of that
variability is due to the development of tolerance by regular coffee drinkers;
but there are genetic differences in how people metabolize caffeine as well.
"_

<https://www.23andme.com/health/Caffeine-Metabolism/>

\---

"Coffee, CYP1A2 Genotype, and Risk of Myocardial Infarction"

<http://jama.ama-assn.org/content/295/10/1135.long>

------
hamletdrc2
I give up coffee every year for at least 40 days. It takes at least two weeks
to start being as productive again, but after that cooling off period my
productivity begins to rise. I have more energy in the evenings and sleep
less.

+1 for the give up coffee advice.

My 40 days is in observance of the Christian Lent period. I'm not Christian,
but the 40 day stretch is as good of period as any to make a change in your
life, and I like that I observe the same rituals of many of those around me.

~~~
RiderOfGiraffes
So, if this is good advice, why do you return to the coffee habit?

~~~
nestlequ1k
I'm in the same pattern. After I have given up coffee for a few months, one
coffee is enough to get me addicted again. It's so much more potent.

It's worth quitting just to go back to it. I seriously love falling off the
wagon.

~~~
nickluft
When your bad, your better!

------
mpc
ADHD is often resolved paradoxically with stimulants. For me, caffeine is a
natural alternative to ADHD medication. A small amount of coffee, twice a day,
allows me to focus intensely.

Folks with ADHD aside...optimizing caffeine intake seems to be the key to
avoiding the nasty side-effects.

~~~
nickluft
Fascinating point.

Then does that mean that being more focused without coffee means I am low on
the ADHD spectrum?

~~~
mpc
Perhaps. Although even the experts don't fully understand ADHD.

Most people don't know where they fall on the ADHD spectrum. Maybe that's one
of the reasons why there's such a mixed opinion on whether caffeine is good or
bad when it comes to focusing.

~~~
nickluft
Oooo. I need to read this.

<http://www.pediatricneurology.com/adhd.htm>

Or would you recommend another source?

Note to self: reading medical textbooks means you always have the symptoms, so
you are always ill.

------
wladimir
I have no idea whether it makes any difference for my productivity, but I
simply like coffee. No way I'll give it up. There's so many habits you are
advised to give up these days in the name of health and productivity... I
wonder when asceticism will become 'hip' again.

~~~
nickluft
I still like coffee too. I prefer dark roast espressos with almond croissants.
Mmmm...

Occasionally I have a treat in a coffee shop, but only at the weekend.

You might be one of the lucky ones who are not too effected by caffeine mood
swings. However, you'll never know, unless you try it.

~~~
wladimir
Well there are days I drink a lot of coffee and days I don't drink coffee at
all. I haven't noticed any difference in mood swings.

Sure if I drink coffee all day (and no water), I get caffeine overdose
symptoms and feel dehydrated. Drinking water is good in any case. But that
doesn't mean completely stopping drinking coffee if you enjoy it...

------
lemming
I gave up coffee a while ago, it was fantastic. I always thought that it never
affected my sleep, but the difference in how I sleep then and now is
incredible. And yeah, I no longer have the after lunch down.

What I really couldn't kick was the habit of actually drinking the stuff. So I
drink decaf now. Think it tastes different? I demand a double blind test. It
tastes fine.

~~~
xutopia
I had a situation present itself that though it wasn't perfectly controlled
could pass off for a double blind test. I was with friends and one went to get
some coffee for both her and myself. The moment she put both coffees on the
table she excused herself and took her phone out of the pocket to answer it.

I didn't know which was which (as I drink decaf because of genetic marker
rs762551 that says I'm not metabolizing caffeine properly). So I thought how
great this would be to test the difference between the two.

Both were Arabica and I was able to differentiate between the two with or
without milk and sugar. The decaf version (I asked afterwards) was
decaffeinated using the swiss process.

I cannot guarantee that both beans were the same even if they were both
Arabica so it might just be that the beans were different.

My conclusion was that one of the two tasted sharper and more bitter. When she
came back she told me which coffee was decaf and it was the one that didn't
have the sharpness to it (or at least much less of it)

When I went home I googled to learn the taste of caffeine itself and the first
hit I got was a site describing it as a sharp bitter taste.

~~~
nickluft
This had made me realise I have never tried decaf.

I will go and buy some and see if I like it.

Thanks.

------
ambirex
I think even more important is "to thine own self be true" part of which is to
empirically know yourself.

I use journaling and automatic tools to measure my own productivity. I
experiment and make adjustments as needed.

~~~
nickluft
Knowing yourself is good advice. But accepting yourself is much harder to do.

I found the caffeine lows interfered with my ability to accept myself.

------
jdietrich
Switch to tea. Coffee is a markedly inferior stimulant and the only reason
Americans drink as much as they do is because of a certain political skirmish
over taxation.

Tea contains L-theanine, which acts synergistically with caffeine. It
increases levels of dopamine as caffeine does, but also levels of GABA,
helping to reduce stress and take away the jittery, distractible edge that
comes with coffee drinking. If you were to sit down and design a drug to help
with mentally taxing work, you'd be hard pressed to concoct something better
than tea.

~~~
nickluft
But please avoid strong tea. It still has a lot of caffeine in it and tea can
also hinder the absorption of iron and other long-term effects.

<http://www.stashtea.com/caffeine+and+tea.aspx>

Tea has approximately half the caffeine that coffee has.

~~~
tony584
Stash is making strong generalizations, try this:
[http://chadao.blogspot.com/2008/02/caffeine-and-tea-myth-
and...](http://chadao.blogspot.com/2008/02/caffeine-and-tea-myth-and-
reality.html)

------
maxawaytoolong
When I quit coffee completely for 6 months I felt completely unproductive and
slow, so I started again.

That said, coffee culture has trended towards very potent coffee. I now feel
like most drip coffee I get in a coffee shop is too strong, and an espresso is
the only manageable dose. This is a weird reversal of the situation 15 years
ago, where drip coffee was just dirty water, and an espresso is what kept
people up all night.

------
bryanlarsen
Giving up coffee was one of the best things I've ever done for myself.
(Perhaps second only to marrying my wife).

\- no more trouble sleeping

\- migraines significantly reduced in frequency and severity

\- caffeine has become a very effective ibuprofen booster

\- significantly reduced "up and downs"

------
Deadsunrise
> I did this as I was eating too many cakes and buns with my coffee and was
> finding the down from the coffee-high was too soul-destroying in a boring
> desk-job.

I think his problem is more related to the sugar highs and lows than the
coffee itself.

~~~
nickluft
Ahh the sugar high!

I think this is a bit of a myth. See this:

[http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/2747/does-giving-
sw...](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/2747/does-giving-sweets-to-
kids-produce-a-sugar-rush)

Seems like one early study made the link but the following studies cannot make
the link.

~~~
Deadsunrise
you are right. I was referring to the lows and I should have stated that the
"problems" are probably caused by the carbs and the blood-glucose
fluctuations, not the sugar itself.

Hypoglucemia (or not being used to it) is what makes you "crash" and get
hungry again after a big blood-glucose and insulin spike. In his case the
improvements have probably more to do with removing the sugars than the
caffeine.

------
jarek
This is exactly what the current coffee culture of North America needed: input
from productivity blogs.

(Disclaimer: I quit coffee before doing it was cool†, but I'm quite partial to
teas.)

(† because it was messing with my stomach)

~~~
nickluft
Did it make you more productive?

~~~
jarek
Hard to say as I don't closely watch my productivity. It didn't make me
significantly less productive, in any event. edit: And it's nice to feel that
I can actually get stuff done without regularly needing coffee.

(Grandparent post is sarcasm, no offense intended.)

~~~
nickluft
I got the sarcasm. <smiles> I am a Brit </smiles>.

I just did not realise not drinking coffee had become cool. Perhaps my age has
proofed me from such things.

I don't measure my productivity, I just know I feel better about working when
not on coffee and thus work becomes easier. It might be less productive,
though I doubt it.

------
pgmcgee
I used to drink a couple cups of coffee a day, but felt jittery and then had
some pretty intense lows that made it hard to focus and enjoy work. I replaced
that with a couple cups of green or oolong tea a day and it's done wonders for
me in terms of jitters and lows. No long do I feel like I'm going to jump out
of my skin or like I just want to take a nap while trying to concentrate on
what I'm doing.

I highly recommend trying some tea if this sounds familiar. Green and oolong
tea have significantly less caffeine in them than coffee, and it's just as
fun, if not more, picking out good teas as it is picking out good coffee.

~~~
nickluft
Thanks for sharing.

But be aware that black tea and green tea often have the same caffeine
content. The trick is to make your tea weak.

~~~
nickluft
Some stats comparing caffeine content in tea.

<http://www.stashtea.com/caffeine+and+tea.aspx>

------
sharms
There are also significant benefits to coffee, from being a great source of
antioxidants to "Coffee drinkers may be at lower risk of liver and colon
cancer, type 2 diabetes, and Parkinson's disease."[1] There is also research
regarding benefits to inhibiting cognitive degeneration.

[1]
[http://articles.cnn.com/2010-04-28/health/coffee.studies_1_c...](http://articles.cnn.com/2010-04-28/health/coffee.studies_1_coffee-
drinkers-coffee-studies-national-coffee-association?_s=PM:HEALTH)

~~~
artmageddon
Granted I'm only 28, but my relatives along with several friends are amazed at
the fact that I make it a point to not drink coffee. I hate the notion of
having to rely on something(y'know, aside from food and water and oxygen)
specifically designed to give me a mental boost. I always figured if I was
falling asleep midday it was because I was wasn't sleeping well or something
of the sort.

It's hard because I also want to get the benefits described in these studies,
but don't want to become dependent on caffeine to get through the day.

~~~
nickluft
Try something like meditation, exercising, taking 30 minute holidays... other
non-addictive and well tested methods.

~~~
artmageddon
I do work out fairly regularly and try to take mental breaks(sometimes too
many, haha). I just wasn't sure if there was something unique about the
benefits that one gets from coffee.

------
Zak
I gave up caffeine more than a year ago, because I didn't like the idea of
being addicted to a drug. I have a cup of tea once every couple weeks or so,
but that's about it.

The only improvement I've noticed is that I don't suffer withdrawal symptoms
if I don't have caffeine. If anything, I think my mind feels a bit slower
without it. I think I might take it up again.

~~~
nickluft
Could be that you are getting older.

------
gwern
Relevant links:

\- <http://quantifiedself.com/2009/10/the-false-god-of-coffee/>

\-
[http://lesswrong.com/lw/1w1/coffee_when_it_helps_when_it_hur...](http://lesswrong.com/lw/1w1/coffee_when_it_helps_when_it_hurts/)

~~~
nickluft
Thanks for the link to the ever wonderful "lesswrong" site. So much for me
thinking I had stumbled onto something.

------
PatHyatt
I've yet to have a coffee since the new year, and I find it does in fact help
with keeping focus.

~~~
nickluft
Simple really.

I think I was looking for magic bullets (talismans) and hit on coffee only by
noticing that no matter what I did, what productivity thingy I used, it was
the mood swings that were my worst habit.

------
nickluft
I wonder if there is a simple medical test that could identify the caffeine
intolerant?

------
regularfry
But it's so tasty...

~~~
ot
What about decaf?

~~~
regularfry
There's probably nothing objectively wrong with it. I'm just a coffee snob.

------
mdg
I was always curious about the timeline between:

\- finding one of these talismans of productivity

\- actually trying it out

\- blogging about it

\- staying with it

I have a feeling the first 3 occur pretty rapidly.

~~~
nickluft
There should be a universal law that makes people who blog about a talisman of
productivity revisit their post and comment on it, say 3 months later, then 6
months later etc.

Now is there a service that does that? - enables me to setup reminders (like
Outlook calendar) but send them to my long-term (not work) email with a link
to a website to be commented on and for that matter any other long term
reminders.

