
After Misjudging Market, Bike Maker Vanhawks (YC W16) Has Been Resurrected - jseliger
https://techvibes.com/2016/10/18/vanhawks-has-been-resurrected-with-new-plan
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danielhooper
"a $1,500 USD bike that can be connected to smartphones via bluetooth and
track rider statistics, such as route and speed, in real-time."

So it's a bike with built in GPS? That connects to my phone, which also has
GPS? What the heck. What am I missing that makes this product not such an
obviously dumb idea? What can this do that I can't accomplish with a mobile
app, or with a smart watch strapped to the handlebars?

~~~
davidvanhawks
Hey, David from Vanhawks here. One of the nice things about the Valour is that
we will continue to develop the platform while you ride the bike - it will get
better the longer you own it as we release new features. And, if you worried
about whether we'll be around long enough to make that happen, I feel
confident in saying yes.

Check out our latest news on our new structure here:
[http://blog.vanhawks.com/2017/04/26/in-case-you-missed-
it/](http://blog.vanhawks.com/2017/04/26/in-case-you-missed-it/)

~~~
Twirrim
Apps on cell phones can also be updated over time. I've got a GPS already in
the cell phone that will measure speed etc, and as I replace the cell phone
that hardware will get better over time and support more features from an app.

Bikes, on the other hand, don't tend to be treated as a disposable /
frequently upgraded thing. You're asking customers to buy in to a fixed set of
hardware for a dozen years. That means you've got to provide some really
significant value to the equation, and offer something that is just not even
remotely possible with an ordinary cell phone.

So far as I can figure the only thing you offer in that regards is blind-spot
detection sensors, and that seems like something I could realistically expect
to see from bicycle electronics companies within a reasonably short time
frame, for way less than $500.

I'm still not sure what exactly your significant value-add is. I'm not trying
to shit on you or your product. The bike looks great. I just think you need to
think very carefully about how you are marketing it, and what exactly you're
offering to persuade someone to pony up an additional $500 or so over a normal
bike.

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rfdub
Misjudged is an understatement. There is no appetite for these over-priced
"Connected" bikes. They are essentially taking a $1000 Chinese carbon bike and
selling it for $1500 with the extra cost attributed to an integrated, non-
upgradeable computer and some sensors, all of which can already be found in
any given customer's existing smartphone, which can easily be mounted onto
whatever bike the customer wants. I don't get why anyone would take a bicycle,
something that has a useful lifespan of potentially decades and integrate it
with technology that will become obsolete in less than a couple of years. Just
because you can put a computer and sensors in something doesn't mean you
should or that anyone will pay for it.

~~~
gnopgnip
The same is true for juicero, internet connected refrigerators, and almost
everything else connected to the internet. Plenty of people will pay more for
things because they are internet connected

~~~
aqme28
I dont think you want Juicero to be your example of a successful IoT startup.

------
no_flags
I think the bike market is already in the process of being disrupted by online
sales. Many shops are struggling or have already closed. There are several
successful online-only brands in the mountain bike world such as Commencal,
YT, and Canyon. One difference I see between those companies and Vanhawks is
that they clearly offer the best value in their market segment (in terms of
price). The Vanhawks bike is not directly comparable to other bikes out there,
so it's hard to know if it's a good deal or not. I also wonder how many
commuters will want to spend $2k on a bike. The mountain bike brands I
mentioned are all aimed at enthusiasts and are able to leverage professional
sponsorships and mountain bike specific media outlets to validate their
product in the eyes of potential customers.

~~~
Finnucane
I spent $1400 on mine a few years back. A nice touring bike that is also good
for commuting. And on top of that, I've added a dynamo hub, lights, reflective
paint, switched out the fenders (twice), and other customizations. But then, I
put more miles on the bike than I do on our car, so it's totally worth it for
me.

On the other hand, I'd never buy this Vanhawk unless I could be certain, for
instance, that the electronics would withstand New England winters (I can tell
you that ordinary cycle computers do not!). I gave up replacing them because
what they tell you is not needed for commuting. I know the route, I know how
long it takes, I do it every day. Also, there doesn't seem to be bosses for
racks or water bottle holders, which I consider pretty essential.

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hinkley
Purchasing a bike is a very tactile experience. How does it feel when you're
on it? Anyone whose ever was a bike aficionado should know that. The only
people I know who bought one and had it shipped (e.g., Davidson, Serotta,
Rodriguez) still went to see one first.

How do you know enough about bikes to build one out of carbon fiber but don't
get that?

~~~
wmeredith
You could say the same thing about shoes (Zappos) or mattresses (Casper). I
think you're conflating your preferences with those of the entire market.

~~~
LeifCarrotson
When I buy shoes on Zappos, I am trusting an existing brand that I've worn
before (I wear the Nike Pegasus running shoes; the 33 model is basically the
same as the 31s that I have on my shelf) and I'm happy to buy them from Zappos
instead of a retailer.

I'd buy bike components online at Nashbar or Performance because I know what
I'm getting from Fuji or Shimano. And Nashbar has slowly inserted themselves
into that trusted space as well. But Vanhawks? I don't trust that yet.

~~~
hinkley
If I'm being completely honest I think this depends a bit on disposable
income. The guy I knew who bought a Davidson way, way back, knew a guy who let
him borrow one. He had a family and coughing up that much money took some
thinking.

The confirmed bachelor with many bikes, on the other hand, would try to do his
homework but ended up with several he didn't like. He'd just resell them and
try again. But biking was his thing. I think his bikes were worth more than
his furniture.

~~~
LeifCarrotson
If your bikes are not worth more than your furniture, you either have too few
bikes or your furniture is too expensive.

~~~
hinkley
I think if you sat down and added up the cost of all of your furniture, you'd
be shocked at the total.

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scblock
I doubt they ran into trouble because of their planned sales model.
Fundamentally this is not a product I would expect to be commercially
successful. All these weird trends like Kickstarters for "Connected bikes" and
Bluetooth "smart locks" are not actually very useful to cyclists. Real
improvements to cycling will come from investments in infrastructure, not by
throwing technology at bicycles themselves.

~~~
davidvanhawks
David from Vanhawks here - couldn't agree more. That's why our vision isn't
just to 'throw technology at bicycles.' What the Valour does allow is for rich
data collection so that we can help shape more useful changes in the future.

~~~
overcast
Anytime someone from a company comes on here using buzzword nonsense, you know
it's not going to end well. You're talking to the wrong group of people with
that middle manager marketing speak.

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bch
> “gearing up for 2017.”

It's too late for that. 2017 bookings were completed last fall.

~~~
schwarrrtz
The article is dated Oct 18th.

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underdown
I think they are still misjudging the market. Im a cyclist - ride about 3k
miles per year. I know very little about this bike, however why do I need a
connected bike? I have a computer that I can attach to any bike I like. Hell,
a smart phone on a mount can be swapped between bikes. Plus, frames break. I
would rather have a modular bike that I can swap the pieces I want between.

Maybe its just bad copy, but I already have a connected bike - everyone I ride
with does. The only features i see that I might not have are blindspot
detection (which i can get with a cheap mirror on my helmet if i wanted it),
and a carbon fiber belt instead of a chain, which means none of my existing
components which I've paid thousands of dollars for will work. The fixie is a
little more compelling, but the price point is a little steep.

~~~
davidvanhawks
David from Vanhawks here - why do you need a connected bike? Maybe you don't.
But, I sure like riding one. We are aiming to make commuting safer and more
comfortable for riders. A big part of that approach is to remove distractions
to the greatest extent that we can. Unlike strapping a device on to the handle
bars, you can simply open the app, lock your phone and put it away. The ride
recording starts and stops automatically and, your turn by turn directions are
given through easy to follow light signals from the handle bar. Basically, we
want you to keep your eyes on the road and not on your device.

The Valour also records a much more rich set of data that we will be using to
inform cycling directions in the future. Most apps or devices record speed,
time, distance, etc. We're recording much more.

I get what you are saying though - I have a Garmin that I use with multiple
road bikes on country roads during the weekend. There, it is much easier to
glance down to see how many watts I'm producing or switch screens to check my
vertical metres per hour. However, when I'm riding across town to the office,
I have a very different set of concerns.

~~~
thom_nic
Seems what you describe could be done through a BLE accessory that straps to
the handlebar or at most an aftermarket handlebar with LEDs/sensors
integrated, which talks to a phone app.

I'm part of the "athlete" market segment who is happy spending $2k on a "dumb"
road bike and I also commuted on that dumb bike every day through the city.

The same applies to a power meter - if I want to know my watts I'd rather buy
a PowerTap hub or crank and put it on the bike I want rather than having to
buy a whole bike with it permanently integrated.

I wonder if, instead of building the whole bicycle you couldn't do great
things by building awesome aftermarket components (e.g. try to be Anker, not
Apple.)

That said, I know it's easy to be a naysayer, and I wish anyone who's working
to innovate the cycling industry all the best! (Lots of <3 to Strava, Garmin &
Di2)

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Naritai
I like how the first 2 comments here say that: 1) online sales are destroying
in-person bike retail 2) in-person bike retail can never be replaced by online
sales.

~~~
jseliger
Yeah. I would guess that over time, bike shops will morph into a) repair shops
and b) showrooms that might, for example, get $x from each company for each
test ride on one of their bikes (or something along those lines). A person who
chooses to buy the bike would then get it shipped to the shop and built;
eliminating inventory should also eliminate a _lot_ of cost.

As for Vanhawks specifically, I think they have a very cool idea but their
bikes are just a little too expensive for me. Which is actually pretty
frustrating. I'd like one of their single-speed bikes, but the bike is $1300.
Then shipping is $150. Then assembly is ~$50 – $100. Then a rack and fenders
are more.

Something like a Priority bike is $900:
[https://www.prioritybicycles.com/products/thecontinuum](https://www.prioritybicycles.com/products/thecontinuum)
and the company often offers free shipping. Fenders and a variable-speed
transmission are included. Total cost is a lot lower.

