

Ask HN: How have you learned a speaking language? - kyro

What resources, methods, etc, have you all used to learn a second speaking language? I've been trying to learn arabic for some time, but have usually hit walls along the way. It's been an on-and-off type of effort, which I realize is probably the worst way to learn a language, or anything really. I'd like some seriously good suggestions. I've tried a few sites out, most of which were usually a pain to use. Is software like Rosetta Stone worth it? What is?
======
ximeng
I have got to a reasonable level with mandarin Chinese through on-and-off
study over a few years, mostly in my free time. Here is what worked for me.

1) Most important is how much time you put in. Don't worry about the on-and-
off, though regular is better. Don't worry too much about efficiency unless
you're putting in the hours. For Chinese I estimate I've spent at least 2000
hours studying to get to where I am today.

2) Vocab's important. SRS can help with this. I personally like using online
dictionaries and translating the example sentences. Any word you don't
understand in an example sentence, look up. It will take a long time, but
eventually you will start to remember common words. One day you will get to
the stage where you recognise 95% of the words you see, and that's enough to
get basic understanding of most material. You'll probably eventually want to
aim for about 10,000 words of passive vocabulary. At 10 minutes a word, that's
already 1500 hours+, about 40 weeks, 40 hours a week.

3) Mandarin or arabic are languages that many people speak and study. You'll
be able to find plenty of material online, videos, radio, news, blogs. TV and
radio are probably less efficient if you're not able to read similar material,
so try to find material with transcripts or subtitles and use those.

4) Teachers can be helpful, but are expensive. VOIP classes may help with the
cost, or living in a country that speaks the language. The main thing teachers
will help with are correcting usage mistakes and pronunciation. Working with a
teacher is in my opinion not much more efficient (maybe less) than self-study
for pure vocab learning, so self-study vocab if you want to save money. Useful
exercises are writing essays (ideally by hand) and having them corrected, and
reading passages out loud for pronunciation practice. General chat can be
helpful for building confidence and because it uses different vocab.

5) There are lots of free resources for learners online. For example,
<http://www.dliflc.edu/products.html> has an Arabic grammar search, and some
other Arabic resources if you look for them. It maybe worth trying some of
these. Try different language versions of topics in Wikipedia, sometimes the
foreign languages are translated directly from the English versions. Or for
words you can't find in a dictionary, try doing a search with the target
language equivalent of "what's the meaning of xyz".

6) Unfortunately though vocab and time are the limiting factors, so though you
may be slightly more efficient with software and specialist podcasts
(definitely worth at least trying some free learning site podcasts for arabic,
sure there must be some out there), optimise for maximum time spent rather
than software bought. While my mandarin is a long way from where I want it to
be, I'm reasonably fluent in the basics, and given time I'm confident I'll get
there on the rest.

7) I've spent a fair amount on private tuition, but nothing on specialist
software, and the textbooks I've bought I haven't used much. A good dictionary
will do you just as well as a lot of textbooks, though textbooks won't do any
harm, just not essential. So don't worry too much about not having the right
tools so long as you are able to figure out example sentences in a dictionary,
armed with plenty of patience you'll probably be alright. Incidentally I'd say
with today's internet, it's probably less important to go overseas to study
than before, although it probably won't hurt (apart from the disruption of
moving to a new place). Language partners can help, but if you're aiming for
500 hours of study it's likely that you can earn enough to pay for a teacher
for 500 hours in less than 500 hours doing something other than teaching
English, so consider this more for fun unless you particularly enjoy teaching
people.

8) Don't worry too much about age. Do worry about motivation and the time you
spend. Kids grow up in an environment with educational TV shows, parents and
teachers correcting their mistakes, and many hours of language classes
learning literature, grammar, composition, public speaking, and so on. You can
do some but not all of this, but as an adult you have responsibilities and so
the limiting factor is likely to be the time you decide to spend on these
areas. Try finding kids TV on youtube or equivalents, but realise that it's
going to be more expensive and hard to simulate the learning environment of a
child compared to a child growing up in the country.

9) You'll forget things if you don't study for a while, native or non-native
speaker. But you'll pick them up soon enough when you start studying again. So
don't worry too much about that, aim for regular study, but study when you can
is better than not at all.

10) Before spending the thousands of hours and the money to learn a language,
be clear about your goals and the level you want to attain. You can go
anywhere up from understanding a menu and asking someone where they're from to
understanding a country's culture and literature and being able to talk
fluently with natives. To really get good at a language you'll need to spend a
lot of time, this will be easier if you can justify it for reasons beyond just
the language, probably professional or personal reasons in the long term.

Put the time in and you'll get there before too long. Have fun.

Edit: <http://gloss.dliflc.edu/> has lessons for many languages. Edit2:
Karaoke can be fun too - search youtube. Edit3: I like this one:
<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pgElZAj3ePI> quite funky, though it's
difficult to know if her accent / vocab is standard, it's still fun to try to
follow.

~~~
bluesmoon
I second Karaoke.

Learning a language by first learning to mimic songs is a great way to build
pronunciation skills, and also get to know common words and how they go
together. You then also have a tune to associate with different constructs,
and it's much easier to memorise a tune than it is to memorise words.

~~~
Vivtek
My German pronunciation was horrible until I sang for a year or two in an
oratory choir in Stuttgart. Singing is the best way I know to get
pronunciation right - my guess is it's engaging different parts of your brain
in order to trick the left brain into not paying attention while you're
learning the less verbal stuff.

------
Todd
First, the older you get, the harder it becomes to learn a language. So begin
now, regardless of your age.

Second, you really must have a strong interest in the language, culture, or
people of the target language (or at least be able to grow that interest over
time). Preferably, the sound of the language should also appeal to you on a
certain level. Learning a language is a commitment. That said, it is possible
to dabble in different languages. It is one of the best ways to learn whether
a language will interest you over the longer term (and a great vignette into
another culture).

A good book on the subject is How to Learn Any Language by Barry Farber. He
has a system of techniques that he's developed over the years, having
supposedly learned a couple of dozen languages. It is helpful to study other
polyglots, such as Sir Richard Burton, as well.

I learned French on my own. I can speak passably and understand it well
(spoken and reading).

Here's my method:

1\. Get a good grammar book. You can get a simple grammar book to start with.
I like the Dover Essential grammars (e.g., Essential French Grammar). They're
short, concise, and less likely to overwhelm. Plus, they're a handy reference
later on.

2\. Get a good dictionary. Start with a bilingual dictionary. Eventually, you
can get a dictionary in your target language (a dictionary that natives use).
Make sure it has pronunciation in IPA. You can then read the definitions in
the target language, which helps add to the volume of consumed text and
meaning. This is a tip I got from <http://www.antimoon.com>, a great language
learning site.

3\. Develop a set of flash cards. These days, I always use SRS (spaced
repetition software). I started with SuperMemo, one of the originators of the
technique. Sadly, this app is a bit neglected and the interface is poor. My
SRS app of choice these days is Anki. It's a great app written by an
Australian who wanted to learn Japanese while living in Japan, so it supports
kana and other character sets well. Plus, it's written in Python and OSS. It
works on many platforms.

4\. By a Pimsleur audio course. This is probably the best way to get some
speaking ability early on, with good pronunciation. Pimsleur also uses the SRS
technique. There are other audio courses, but Pimsleur is the best, IMO.

5\. Begin listening to native speakers. If you don't live in a country that
speaks the language, you can rent movies and turn on the subtitles (turn them
off later, either after you've learned a bit or if you've seen the movie a
couple of times and know the story). You can also listen to the radio. Find a
good station that has web broadcasts with speakers and no music (I listen to
rfi.fr). Listen. Daily. Even when I barely knew the language I would put this
on in the background and just let my subconscious be immersed in it.
Eventually, I started to be able to pick out words. Later, I understood
phrases, etc. Eventually, you'll hear something over and over and be compelled
to look it up. This is how you learn the daily idioms.

6\. Join a speaking group (e.g., via meetup). The only way to become fluent is
to use what you've learned, even if you stumble early on (and you will).

7\. Ideally, move to a country that speaks the language. Even if only for a
few months. I moved to France for two years. While you're there, find excuses
to get out every day and talk with people. Take a class on your favorite
subject (fencing, basket weaving, etc.) with locals. Go to the market.

When learning a language, you go through stages. The first important stage is
beginning to understand the spoken language. The next step is being able to
follow a conversation. At a certain point, things will "click" and you'll have
learned enough to where you're not studying so much as consuming. Eventually,
you learn new vocabulary through use--just as with your native language.

Language is a uniquely human trait. Our brains are wired for it. We learn
through saturation. Follow the advice of Antimoon and expose your brain to as
much content as you can. Read or listen every day. Eventually your brain
starts to work things out.

Finally, once you've learned your language, keep it. You must review or you'll
begin losing it. I listen to the radio.

~~~
danh
I would start with number 4, and save the formal grammar study for (much)
later.

IMHO, the far most important thing to do is to listen. I prefer podcasts, but
anything (radio, films, TV, overheard conversations in bars) will do.

Understanding spoken language is also (again in my opinion) by far the most
difficult part of learning a language. Especially in real life, and really
noisy, situations, where you probably only hear half of the sounds people are
making. The rest you will have to fill in yourself - which is sort of like
solving crossword puzzles in real time.

This takes a lot of practice, and there's really no way around that.

Starting by studying all the rules of formal grammar is, I think, a bit like
learning to play tennis by first studying the rule book a couple of years...

~~~
drtse4
Agreed, listening is fundamental. By listening, grammar rules can be picked-up
easily and "naturally", it helps to develop an ear for the language and absorb
its structure, something that will be also useful when you'll try to speak the
new language.

I liked how the previous poster highlighted the need for a _concise_ grammar,
focusing too much on grammar rules can be fatal and a huge time waster. This
was one of the mistakes i made while studying english, this and the on-off
attitude, the lack of material and many other errors that now can be easy
solved using the net. Things will go a lot differently with my 3rd language
(japanese, that i'd like to use in the future to learn mandarin).

The main point that emerges from this great thread is basically that you must
leverage the high amount of quality and cheap language-learning material that
is now available. Try everything, discard what doesn't work, and as soon as
you have defined a plan stick to it.

------
thegeezer3
Bio: Learning Japanese and now able to read programming, business and general
how-to books and communicate via email using Kanji. Reading literature with
its flowery vocabulary and Kanji though is still very hard. Can write under
1500 - 2000 Kanji and know nearly a pronunciation for each symbol though there
are many many more and far from fluent. I've also started to do some basic
translation (Japanese to English) and helping out at Japans Annual Ruby
Conference this year with translation. About 5 years in.

From personal experience:

The biggest factor in how fast you improve during your studies is environment.
Noticed I said during your studies. Simply being immersed isn't good enough.
To create your environment you can (in order of effectiveness):

Find a boy/girlfriend who natively speaks the language. Its best if they cant
speak yours. This is steroids for your language learning.

Failing that find roomates - the more the better. Nearly as good.

It doesn't matter if your stuck in your home country - I've met Japanese
people who rock at English just because they either had a lazy English
speaking partner who couldn't be bothered to learn the lingo or likewise lazy
roommates.

Start reading websites, magazines, listening to music and watching films or
youtube all in your target language. Pursue your interests as much as possible
using your new language. If you like hip-hop then listen to underground hip-
hop artists via youtube. Grab their lyrics from the net and translate. Sing it
out-load in the shower.

Skype for discussions, Lang8.com for writing blogs and peer review etc etc etc

If your looking at becoming very conversational (talk about wide range of
subjects comfortably but not yet bling bling) then its going to be 3 years
plus. With that in mind you have to be a well oiled machine with vocabulary
management, just being 10% more efficient with your vocabulary means a saving
of 3-4 months and compared to the traditional use of lists on paper, software
such as Anki helps you be at least 20% more efficient.

Assuming your in this for the long haul, don't neglect the reading and writing
part for languages with scripts or "funny" symbols. Rather prioritize it since
being able to read books and magazines will help you grasp how things are said
naturally. You'll meet new words everyday and come across them time and time
again in context helping you internalize them faster. Unlike conversation, you
control the pace when reading and its more comfortable for beginners and
intermediates. I tried learning Kanji the way native Japanese people do and
failed miserably. I tried some books most crap but one gem called "Remembering
the Kanji" was absolutely amazing. In 2months I got through 2000kanji and by 6
could draw every single one from memory. And there were faster learners than
me! I'm sure there's something for Arabic script if that's tricky.

Get the basic tools. Get a learners dictionary to start. Once you start
getting better, try an Arabic dictionary for Arabic kids i.e. no English
written whatsoever. Ideal would be a dictionary for the pc to aid faster
lookups via copy and paste. Don't by cheap crap though as it will probably
have awful explanations and old fashioned examples ending up in you sounding
like someones granddad. Likewise look for a good grammar reference.

Get a dictionary plugin for Firefox. I use rikaichan for Japanese. I simply
hover over a word and the definition pops up instantly. Very handy.

Lastly implement all of the above slowly one by one, remember Rome wasn't
built in a day and have fun.

Hope that helps and good luck.

~~~
sgt
"Find a boy/girlfriend who natively speaks the language. Its best if they cant
speak yours."

Now that one would be a tricky one.. Starting a relationship when you can
hardly communicate with eachother? ;-)

~~~
brianobush
True, but you can go at it backwards too. I met my wife in grad school and
decided to learn the language afterwards; probably better route IMO. The hard
part has been using English as a crutch - it has always been hard to go all
out in Japanese.

~~~
ahoyhere
My husband is a native (Austrian) German speaker and when we met, his English
wasn't great. But he was just rusty… meanwhile, because we're DOING things
together, we've given up on speaking German because it gets too frustrating
and slow.

Now, even if I start a conversation in German, he responds in English. Bad
habit. :)

I've absorbed as much as I can absorb from listening to people, language CDs &
trying to read the free daily papers. I have pretty good but imprecise reading
comprehension. I can have a basic conversation but I get tenses wrong
sometimes and cases wrong often. (Farking cases.)

This winter I'm going to pay for a few weeks of one-on-one immersion at the
local Berlitz school and hope that gets me over the hump!

~~~
brianobush
You might want to try Listening-Reading method. Requires a book in both
languages and audio in the target learning language. Google "Listening-Reading
method"

------
ptn
If you have nobody to practice with, you are gonna get nowhere. If you don't
know anybody who speaks the language, can't get reading material written in it
or don't have a TV channel in it, it's gonna be a rough one. You don't learn a
language by reading a book, you do it by using it. Ultimately, if the language
isn't useful to you, don't learn it (useful as in you plan to travel there or
do business with them).

Unless you want company, don't take group classes in an institute. It's a
waste of money and time, because you learn at the other's speed; schools are
only useful if you need to take an exam and get a diploma.

You are way better off getting a couple of books with grammar _and tapes_ that
you can play over and over again until you finally get it. This step is
cheaper than an institute. After a while (not that long), hire a private
teacher who can correct your pronunciation, answer your questions, teach you
about idioms and slang and, if he's a native, tell you cool stuff about the
country (which will wet your curiosity and thus keep you going). This step is
more expensive. Beware natives who aren't teachers, they are only useful to
get some practice (after you know a little and can actually _have_ a
conversation).

Use flash cards to learn new words. These are pretty useful and pretty much
mandatory when learning to read and write Chinese and other languages with
weird characters - like Arabic.

Grab a regular index card and cut it in half (or more if you are pinching
pennies); write on one side the meaning of the word, on the other side, write
it in your target language and then _upside-down_ write it's pronunciation.
This way, in one card you have the writing, pronunciation and meaning of a
word. Keep a batch of them in you pocket/wallet at all times; to practice,
simply grab some, read one of the sides and: a) if you read it in the target
language, make sure you pronounce it correctly and know it's meaning (this is
why you write the pronunciation upside-down, so you can read the word and test
if you can pronounce it without peeking); b) if you read the other side, make
sure you can pronounce the word and write it correctly.

(If you are learning a language with a Latin alphabet, make sure you use
different colors for each side of the card, so you can tell them apart and
sort them quickly.)

Use drills. These are exercises developed during WWII to teach Japanese and
German to Americans when time was short and teachers were the enemy.

There's 3 kinds of drills:

a) Patterned response drills: ask a question, answer it; change some word in
the question and ask it again, answer _using the same pattern than before, but
with a change that reflects the one made in the question_. Example (in
Spanish): 1. ¿Ya comiste? (Q) Estoy comiendo ahora mismo (A) ; 2. ¿Ya
corriste? (Q) Estoy corriendo ahora mismo (A)

b) Substitution: Given a sentence and a replacement word, re-write the
sentence by correctly using the replacement (you have to know what to
substitute). Example (Spanish): 1. José va a comprar un carro (sentence),
avión (replacement) -> José va a comprar un avión (result); 2. José va a
comprar un carro (sentence), nosotros (replacement) -> Nosotros vamos a
comprar un carro (result).

c) Situational: Imagine a situation where you need to chat with someone else,
and go ahead and write that conversation down. It's like writing an essay.

Do a couple thousand of drills and you are ready for anything :-)

~~~
ebiester
I disagree with the advice about an institute. Learning in a group is often
preferable than learning on your own. Yes, you go at a set pace, but that pace
is often faster than you could go on your own. You have built in access to a
native speaker who can help you avoid falling into traps you don't even know
exist.

------
WildUtah
Unless you have superhuman discipline specifically in the area of studying
languages, there is no substitute for immersion. Book yourself a semester
abroad (but not in one of the spoonfed foreign vacation programs most
Universities sponsor -- find a program yourself). Or enroll in a language
school. Choose a homestay, not a dorm. Stick with it for at least three
months. Limit your English internet time and make local friends.

Intense studying with flashcards for vocabulary is also important and should
be done every day. There is no substitute for thirty minutes without fail each
morning. If you keep it up for a year, your word power in the new tongue will
explode. But it must be every day.

Use native materials as soon as you can and make your vocabulary lists from
them. A tutor can really help with that in the early stages.

Get a tutor or some one-on-one lessons to sharpen your pronunciation. You're
pronouncing things wrong and no matter what the studies of casual students
say, serious learners can adopt native accents with practice at any age. It
takes hundreds of hours of practice to make muscle memory work and you need
regular correction. This is the only stage where instruction is indispensable.
Practice pronunciation constantly. Do it on the way to work or school, in the
shower, all the time. It doesn't take brains -- you could almost do it in your
sleep -- but you need hundreds of hours of practice. Muscle memory.

Arabic is really hard (and useless for picking up girls). You should expect it
to take years and years. If you can't live abroad, it may never come to you.
If you're only studying on-and-off, you might not have the discipline. Maybe
consider an easier alternative. (Pretty much anything but Korean is easier.)

------
edanm
Use Pimsleur's language-learning program.

I learned Spanish to a moderate degree with Pimsleur's programs, and I also
learned some French. Planning on taking on Russian and Chinese some time soon.

I highly recommend the Pimsleur method. I don't have much experience, but I
did try the Michel Thomas tapes before it. The difference is that Michel
Thomas teaches the rules of the language (verb conjugation, etc.). Pimsleur
doesn't ever, ever go there. The whole Pimsleur course is built on speaking in
the language and you saying sentences in the language, over and over again. It
never tries to analyze why things are said a certain way, it trusts you to
just learn by rote repetition the important words, and slowly begin to develop
an ear for how the language works. This is how languages are learned naturally
when growing up, and I found that it works brilliantly for me.

One thing though: with Spanish, I have several people I can regularly converse
in Spanish with, which is very helpful. If you don't, you'll probably have to
do other things (like read newspapers in the language, read books, etc.) to
make up for it.

------
gruseom
I think all this talk about CDs, software, etc. is missing the point. If you
want to learn a language, surround yourself with people who are speaking it.
By far your best bet is to go to a country where it's spoken. Second best --
but it's a distant second best -- is to hang out in communities that speak it.

Lessons are useful but not remotely sufficient for learning a language. North
Americans, frankly, don't get this at all; we think that knowing a second
language means we took it in college. The fact is that people who've studied a
language only through coursework (and associated tools) almost never reach the
point of being able to understand conversations between native speakers or
hold their own in ordinary conversation. It's really a sort of pathetic joke
how badly that system works. Europeans, on the other hand, pick up languages
in their drinking water; damn you, Europeans!

If you're at all able to set aside a few months to devote yourself to learning
Arabic and go to an Arabic speaking country, your learning will be greatly
accelerated. Failing that, here's a trick I've been planning to use for years:
find a senior citizens' centre devoted to the community that speaks the
language. Old people in nursing homes are often starved for attention, and
they're hardwired to help younger people learn.

Finally, you have one major advantage: you're trying to learn the language of
a reviled minority. (I'm assuming you're in the US, though it's true to a
lesser extent in some other places.) That's a huge act of respect toward
people who are used to being disrespected. If you're halfway sincere, it
should be easy to meet people who would be happy to help you learn. If I were
you I'd find out if there are any Iraqi ex-pats in your area. They'd likely be
well educated. Not only could you learn a lot, I bet you'd make some friends
for life.

~~~
rue
It is quite often not possible to relocate, even to an immigrant community.

It is also not _necessary_. You may be surprised to find that we in Europe
also learn languages in a class (granted often taken for years, not
semesters)[1]. This will certainly be sufficient for someone to get to a point
where they can "hold their own". Interest in the language in form of self-
study further enhances this, even if nothing compares to immersion.

As for studying without the luxury of immersion, vocabulary is _the_ most
important thing. You can make yourself understood with nouns and unconjugated
verbs alone. Spice it up with a little basic grammar, and then start listening
and reading. TV, movies, books, magazines, dictionary at hand.

[1] Europeans who speak English and German or Swedish _do_ gain reading
comprehension in a free bonus language: Dutch.

~~~
gruseom
Based on years of experience with language learning and teaching, I'm tempted
to say that European patterns don't generalize to North America. I never saw
even one North American student gain anything resembling fluency by using
these techniques. And I've seen hundreds flail. What I'm describing is how the
people whom I've known to achieve fluency actually did it, where fluency is
defined as being able to understand conversation between native speakers and
hold one's own in it.

It's hard to exaggerate how far multilingualism is from the norm here. No
doubt the reasons for this go far beyond individual effort or technique.

------
ebiester
TL;DR: Arabic is a bitch to pick up on your own. Take a class and then build
on that.

Okay, so you've picked one of the five most difficult languages in the world
for English learners to pick up (
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Most_difficult_language_to_lear...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Most_difficult_language_to_learn)
) -- I have a lot of friends who speak Arabic to various levels, and every
single one of them did it through a combination of university classes and
immersion classes in the area.

For some knowledge that you probably know, Arabic is more a collection of
languages than a language itself. Regardless of the dialect you eventually
want to learn, however, you're best off learning Modern Standard Arabic first.
The tricky part, however, is that it's more difficult than many of the
dialects, which have dropped off many of the classical forms. However, no
matter the dialect, you're going to want to watch TV and read the newspaper,
so off to the hardest bit comes first. :)

With Modern Standard Arabic, your best bet is unfortunately to get in a class
or get a tutor. I personally have never heard of much luck with self-study,
because there are so many traps you can fall into when trying to creatively
use the language. If your interest is read-only, you might be okay, but
listening, speaking, and writing may be too much for self-study.

If self-study is the only option, one route you may want to consider is
starting with a simpler related language, Farsi. You'll get the alphabet down,
some of the same words, and some of the tricks. It may be easier to start
reading Farsi then translate the knowledge to Arabic for a self-studier.

I learned Spanish (lapsed intermediate) and am learning Turkish. After three
years of on and off self-study, I took a month-long class in Istanbul, and did
more there than the previous three years, even living with a native speaker.
With that base, I'm able to progress in my self-study.

~~~
mahmud
Arabic is hard, because it's hard to find native speakers to take the piss
with. I say that because I am Arab and desperately trying to cling onto the
language. I read and write it at a poetic level; but speaking with native
speakers sucks, because few of them speak the beautiful language (and the ones
who do carry shitloads of political baggage to make the companionship
worthwhile.)

Arabic would be trivial for converts to Islam, Maronite or Coptic
Christianity; because you will find an all embracing community of brothers.
For me, someone who switches between Classical Arabic, and near perfect
mainstream American accent, and who doesn't shy away from taking pot-shots at
established religio-political dogmas on both sides .. well, tough fucking luck
finding friends.

If there are any worldly Arabs who enjoy al-Mutanabi with MJ and the
occasional line of coke, and who love reading scripture to ladies of ill
repute: hola at me, dog.

I hold nothing sacred, and if you aim to offend, well, we should grab a beer,
or indulge in some drunken pen-pal wankery to celebrate an idealized image of
alleged former glory (of which I am the foremost perpetuator :-)

[Three things I will not talk about: God, Football, or the Bush
Administration]

~~~
alinajaf
>> If there are any worldly Arabs who enjoy al-Mutanabi with MJ and the
occasional line of coke, and who love reading scripture to ladies of ill
repute: hola at me, dog.

I'm not Arab, but dude we should so get a drink.

~~~
mahmud
Shoot me an email; in my profile :-)

------
dkarl
If you're an analytical person who is confident in your ability to learn
grammar and organize your learning -- and I imagine this applies to lots of
folks on HN -- your main concerns will be:

1) Practice with a native speaker.

2) Ongoing motivation to study.

Craigslist may solve this problem for you, depending on where you live and
what you're studying. On Craigslist you'll find native speakers offering
conversation at very low prices. Here's a current example on the Austin
Craigslist:

"Conversational Japanese lesson for 20 dollars per hour (Central Austin)

Let's meet at a coffee shop, and speak in Japanese; please buy me a drink. I
am a Japanese female who moved from Tokyo recently. 20 dollars per hour. "

I'm guessing this person doesn't provide organized lessons and help
understanding grammar, but honestly, I've tried a couple of "teachers"
charging $20-$25 per hour, and they didn't either. People with good teaching
skills charge more, I guess. $20 per hour to talk to a native speaker is worth
every penny, though, if only because you make sure you study so you aren't
embarrassed by your lack of progress since last time. If it helps (it helped
me) you can cultivate a mild crush on your tutor for extra motivation ;-)

------
_corbett
TLDR: attack learning a language from as many angles and media as possible,
multitask language learning with other goals (walking/exercise, travel, movies
to see etc). \-- I've studied over 10 languages, and have known 5 fluently at
one point or another. I wrote a post about my 30,000ft tips here:
[http://cosmicrays.wordpress.com/2010/05/16/language-
learning...](http://cosmicrays.wordpress.com/2010/05/16/language-learning/)

As for closer to the ground tips WRT study resources, I like the Before You
Know It flash card system for getting the basic building blocks:
<http://www.byki.com/>. They have an iPhone app, which is key; I manage to
learn a few words in obscure nooks and crannies of times. I also find as many
language learning podcasts as possible, put them on my iPod and listen to them
when I take extended walks. I usually take a course or two, not necessarily
for the coursework or diploma but to keep my study goals on track. After I get
some basics, I engineer a situation where I _need_ to speak the language,
whether it's an extended vacation, working abroad, a dedicated language
partner, or something more creative (I once volunteered at a kindergarten!).
I've tried immersion without getting a few basics beforehand, and while it may
get some to their goals more quickly, I found the frustration too great and
found investing a few weeks or months of prep before trying immersion more
fruitful. Additional supplemental material: movies/tv (with in-language
subtitles), children's books, switching your electronics to the language,
romantic partner, news articles....

Arabic is especially hard IMHO, I've taken a handful of Arabic (MSA) courses,
studied by immersion, and even worked professionally with Arabic text (machine
translation research). When I started to learn German from scratch as a native
English speaker I still knew more German than Arabic simply due to cognates
and ease of reading. Doh! Good luck!

~~~
drtse4
Impressive. You should write more about this on your blog.

~~~
_corbett
Thanks for the feedback, yea I will probably be blogging more often in the
fall, esp. wrt language learning as I'll be starting to learn French in
September. I'm usually based in Switzerland which helps with the immersion
issue, it's practically one alp from one language to the next ;)

------
DrJokepu
This is how I've learned English and French:

* Step 1: Learn the grammar and the few thousand most important words. This is the hardest and least fun part.

* Step 2: Read a lot in order to obtain a large vocabulary. A lot.

* Step 3: Listen to the language. TV, Radio, Movies, etc.

* Step 4: Talk to native speakers. A lot.

~~~
phuff
Having taken a Masters in Linguistics, and learned 3 languages besides my
native one, I'd say that 1, 3 + 4 are basically the key to learning any
language. It really is "Use it or lose it" when it comes to learning a new
language.

~~~
parktheredcar
Would you say you're a rare case, as far as learning three languages? Many
that pursue linguistics seem offended when asked how many languages they
speak.

~~~
phuff
No, I learned them a long time before I did linguistics, in the course of
other non-linguistics pursuits. I got into linguistics later on because of the
computational linguistics angle.

~~~
parktheredcar
Ah, I see. That's why it interests me, too.

------
rwl
I have to learn a language for my graduate program. I have been learning
German using the Michel Thomas audio program. It isn't perfect, but I do feel
like I have learned a lot with relative ease -- much more easily than I
learned Spanish in middle and high school classes.

Advantages:

* Michel Thomas CDs are significantly cheaper than software-based programs

* audio format means you can study on your commute, rather than only in front of your computer, and you can easily use the CDs with a Free OS

* I like that the program is interactive, and there are two other students on the recording -- it feels like you're getting useful feedback that you wouldn't get practicing alone

Possible Disadvantages:

* the program's focus is on grammar, which is useful for me, but it does mean that you don't learn a lot of vocabulary; I am on the twelfth disc of 15, and the lessons have barely touched on the use of nouns. This might be a downside if you are trying to become conversant with native speakers.

* the audio format means you don't always get the spelling of new words (sometimes they are spelled aloud on the recording, but not always); I deal with this by looking new words up in a German dictionary as I hear them

I also bought a book ( _German Quickly_ , by April Wilson) designed as a crash
course for students needing to pass a language exam. It looks like it will be
helpful in filling in the gaps in the Michel Thomas program, but I honestly
can't recommend it yet, since I have barely cracked it -- reading a grammar
book is so much dryer and more boring than listening to audio lessons!

~~~
Todd
Michel Thomas is good. One issue is that he is originally from Germany, so the
german edition is probably great. He teaches a number of different languages
(such as French), where you won't be learning from a native. He did spend time
growing up there, and you'll probably hear his story about how he fooled the
Germans with his French. Even so, it's not the same as hearing a native
Parisian.

The other feature/problem is that you're hearing the two other students
learning with you. They will often make the similar mistakes that you will
make, which is encouraging. However, I think that 1 out of 3 fluent speakers
on a tape is less effective for learning the correct pronunciation.

An interesting method, nonetheless.

~~~
rwl
_The other feature/problem is that you're hearing the two other students
learning with you. They will often make the similar mistakes that you will
make, which is encouraging. However, I think that 1 out of 3 fluent speakers
on a tape is less effective for learning the correct pronunciation._

For those who don't know the program: the way it works is that the teacher
says a sentence in English, at which point you are supposed to pause the
recording and formulate it in German (or whatever language). When you continue
the playback, one of the other students will also formulate the sentence in
German. Then the teacher will correct them if they're wrong, and repeat the
correct sentence (with correct pronunciation). The idea is that the correct
pronunciation is the last thing you hear.

It's true that this may be less than ideal if your goal is to speak the
language fluently. I'm mostly worried about passing a (written) translation
exam, so pronunciation is a secondary concern for me.

------
alinajaf
I've been learning Japanese for about five years, but was a fluent speaker
after about two. I have only a little bit of advice.

\- Try all the methods, see what sticks. Your learning style, basic
knowledge/ability up until now will be different to everyone else's. I
personally hate rosetta stone and software like it but I've seen other people
have a lot of success with it. I like classes and exams because they force me
to stick to a syllabus but other people hate classroom learning. It's
extremely personal and no one can really prescribe a best method.

\- There will be times where you lack material (grammar, vocab, etc) and times
where you lack practice. For me there's always been a cycle of learning lots
of material and going out to actually use it in real life. These cycles can
last a few hours, days or even years. If you ever feel like you've got a lot
of knowledge, but not much confidence, its time to make native speaker friends
and _practice_. If on the other hand you feel like you've hit a plateau, most
likely its time to hit the books.

\- Learning on and off is fine, don't sweat that at all. Its perfectly alright
to stop studying for a few months here and there, especially if you're
spending regular time with native speakers. I barely touched a textbook or
learning resource in the entire two years I lived in Japan.

------
harscoat
Personally moved in the country whose language I wanted to speak.

Otherwise there is Tim Ferriss method
[http://www.fourhourworkweek.com/blog/2009/01/20/learning-
lan...](http://www.fourhourworkweek.com/blog/2009/01/20/learning-language/)

------
tome
I love this blog:

<http://www.fluentin3months.com/>

He has a number of reviews of software packages and websites, along with his
own "language hacking" guide.

~~~
ashconnor
I became skeptical of him after listening to his attempts at Thai.His fluent
goal was set at...

 _"I want to be able to correctly speak the 5 tones of Thai and be able to
read a given text of several sentences aloud to a local (who is not
necessarily familiar with English and European accents), so that they can
understand it."_

And he failed at that... [http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/327591-one-guys-
effort-t...](http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/327591-one-guys-effort-to-
learn-thai-in-8-weeks/)

------
nezumi
The first thing to bear in mind is that language learning for an adult is a
completely different proposition from language learning as a child. Kids are
wired for it, they have the time, and usually have external pressure to make
progress. Learning methods for kids therefore tend to be slow, tedious and -
because kids haven't fully developed their capacity for abstract thought -
dependent on rote memorization.

My recommendation would be to start with a Pimsleur course. Don't worry about
writing and vocabulary at first, just get a feel for the language. With
Arabic, you have a different alphabet to learn - do that before you try
learning written vocabulary, or you will be forever hamstrung by romanized
transliteration messing with your pronunciation. For vocabulary, spaced
repetition is the way to go. There are lots of sites and systems for this. Go
with the ones that give you a high level of control over what you are
studying, and train only production (i.e. going from English to Arabic),
recognition will take care of itself. For grammar, here's a cute idea I had
some success with in Japanese which has highly regular grammar (I don't know
about Arabic): as you learn the grammar rules, write code to produce them.
E.g. write a function to conjugate the past tense. When it's working, you have
the basis of a game to test yourself. Use your powers of abstraction to bypass
rote memorization.

Don't be down about the fact you don't manage to keep studying religiously. As
long as you get _some_ studying done, no matter how little, you are making
progress. There is a lot of snake oil out there - if you find something isn't
fun or isn't working for you, don't try and force yourself. Most of us learnt
languages the wrong way in school, and learned a lot of bad study habits and
worst of all, got the idea that it's supposed to be hard and take a long time.
Not true - use your experience of learning programming as a template for what
your experience of learning a real language should be like. (assuming you are
a programmer, apologies if not)

------
znt
Here's my story about English and Japanese. I started learning English in
preschool and kept learning in till I graduated from college. I liked to study
English but my real skills came from playing pc games and watching MTV. I used
to watch about 2 hours a day when I was 15 or so. Basically playing games and
watching someone speak that language helps with comprehension a lot.

I started learning japanese in college, there were 4 lessons per week, I was
doing well with the grammar but spoken part was kind of stuttering rather than
fluent speaking. So after 2 years of study one day my japanese instructor
asked me a favor: She wanted me to help her friend's daughter study english.
The girl spoke very little English. I was expected to teach that girl English
in Japanese. At first I couldn't decide if she was playing a joke on me to see
my reaction. When I realised she was serious, I told her that was practically
impossible as I was not fluent in japanese and it might have been a problem.
She just said "I believe in you, you'll do well". I said "What the hell let's
give it a try, at most I'll fail miserably and have a story to tell how I
pissed off an entire japanese family".

So, for 4 hours a week, I started studying with this girl, aged 12, with only
a small english-japanese dictionary in my hand. She also had a similar
dictionary, but it was digital and able to convert between kanji-hiragana-
katakana and English. Probably it was from the future and could read also read
our thoughts. Anyways vocabulary wasn't a problem but communication was. I was
speaking slowly when I tried to explain basic English grammar. But day by day,
my speaking got more fluent and after about 3 months or so, I was able to read
a basic english text and translate it into japanese simultaneously, sentence
by sentence. I guess the lesson here is sticking with the practice on an
ongoing basis. I want to stress that 9 months of study with that girl advanced
my japanese much further than the previous 2 year study as I was actively
speaking most of the time.

------
drhodes
I've been learning chinese for about a year now. I use chinesepod for
vocabulary, realisitic dialog and small doses of grammar. I deconstruct the
podcasts into a form where I painstakingly repeat the entire dialog piece-wise
at a slower speed until my pronounciation is good. Using audacity to label
regions of the dialog and praat to pick out pitches, it's possible to get a
very precise view of how the tones are being pronounced. (praat is opensource
too). I use skritter to work on learning the characters imported from the
lessons at chinesepod (they have an interoperability agreement)

I watch a live streaming weather channel from beijing, and another channel out
of nanjing. Since the connections are spotty, I have $mplayer -dump the stream
straight to file, and then play from that. This endows mplayer the ability to
seek, and of course plays much smoother without the cache issues.

Use IRC. Typing the language is great practice and native speakers can offer
helpful advice.

Staying motivated is the hardest part, prevent burn out any way possible. Use
automation when it makes sense, though It's easy to spend too much time
messing with tools to learn, rather than learning.

------
philfreo
Shameless plug for our startup: Quizlet, which is trying to make learning
languages -- particularly vocabulary -- easier. We've got some cool audio
features coming out soon.

<http://quizlet.com/>

~~~
teamonkey
I've been using Quizlet for a while while learning French. It certainly has
come in handy for vocabulary, but as with a lot of sites based around user-
generated content it's really hard to find the good content that I want.

For example, there are thousands of French flash card sets, but not all of
them have English as the first language (and some of them are French and
English but English is the second language). I've found that really the best
way is to stab in the dark until you find a user who has created the best
content.

Oh, and while you're here, it would be great to have some nice smartphone
formatting or an app for doing revision on the move.

Looking forward to the audio features!

~~~
philfreo
We just made some improvements (and will continue to) on Quizlet Search. Shoot
me an email at phil@ (site domain) with any more feedback.

------
kaiwen1
1\. Move to the country where your target language is spoken.

2\. Find a live-in girlfriend or boyfriend who doesn't speak your language and
is not motivated to learn it.

3\. Carry a dictionary in your pocket, which you will have to reference
constantly to speak with the aforementioned gf/bf.

4\. Spend all of your time with people who don't speak your language.

5\. Study a lot. Use a succinct grammar book like those published by
Routeledge, use a Pimsleur course to get the language feel, and hammer away at
vocabulary.

I lived in China, Ukraine and the Philippines and studied their respective
languages without the benefit of a monolingual live-in girlfriend. I still
learned these languages with varying levels of proficiency, but it was slow
going. Then I moved to Brazil and followed the steps above. The difference is
remarkable. I was completely conversational and literate in Portugese in about
four months.

------
melling
Immersion is the best way. If you can go to a country and take language
lessons there, you will learn much more quickly. Learning a language requires
lots of correct repetition.

If Spanish is what you want to learn, then it's pretty easy. Go to Antigua,
Guatemala and spend 12 weeks in one of the 150 language schools. It will cost
between $150-$200/week for classes with your own private instructor.

I spent 10 weeks at this school:

[http://www.travelpod.com/ad/Proyecto_Linguistico_Francisco_M...](http://www.travelpod.com/ad/Proyecto_Linguistico_Francisco_Marroquin-
Antigua_Guatemala)

Be careful, this is a backbacker and gringo town. You might find yourself
partying late into the night and not studying too much. Here's my favorite
bar:

<http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=4123596654>

------
blacksmythe
I disagree that you can learn a foreign language easily by hanging around
people that speak that language, particularly if they are bilingual. It is a
big effort to speak to someone who is not fluent, and people generally don't
want to. Whether in the U.S. or abroad, you need to study enough to hold a
simple conversation before you can effectively interact with people who you
are not paying for lessons.

Most people go abroad for a limited amount of time. You should study tapes
before you go, to use your practice time there effectively.

I think the Michel Thomas tapes/CDs are the best to start with, for the
languages they are available in (mostly Romance languages). After you are done
with these you can switch to Pimsleur for more study.

I found that the Michel Thomas tapes are enough background that you can have
simple conversations, which of course is only the start of learning a
language.

------
garply
I'm a native English speaker who's basically fluent in Mandarin. I've studied
for 8 years and I live in China. It's my 4th foreign language.

From what I know, Arabic is about as far from English as Mandarin, so let me
put in plainly:

 _If you want to become fluent, expect to put in about a decade of work._ This
is not an easy language like French or Spanish which you'd be able to pick up
by studying at home. You need to go live in an Arabic-speaking country.
_Ideally, find a native girlfriend / boyfriend there._ When memorizing vocab,
it's more efficient (for me, at least) to memorize for a day or two, then
forget, then relearn a few more times than to try to keep a new word in my
mind for a long time span. Forgetting and then relearning just seems to be the
trick to shoring up long-term memory. I find I need to learn a new word an
average of 4 or 5 times before it really sticks.

~~~
alinajaf
What you're describing is called Spaced Repitition. There is software out
there that capitalizes on this phenomenon, i.e. Anki and (shameless plug)
<http://www.cardmonkeyhq.com/> that I develop.

------
mootothemax
I live in Poland and have been trying to learn Polish for the past 10 months.
And failing - a lot.

There are two main reasons for this (in my mind at least):

1) I haven't been fully immersed in Polish; it's too easy to speak English
instead.

2) I don't understand English grammar.

If you have an analytical mind, I think point 2 is very important. The amount
of textbooks I've read and failed to understand because it's like they're
written in a different language. I think it's a bit like when discussing
programming terms with a non-techie.

Anyway, I'm now spending my time learning about nouns, adjectives, verbs and
what object and subject are in relation to a sentence.

It's a crying shame that I've got to the age of 28 without knowing this stuff,
and a damning indictment of the English educational system (and myself!) /but/
I think it'll be worth it ;)

~~~
gruseom
Hey, I have a question for you: how do Poles react to your attempts to learn
Polish?

I ask because I spent a year or two studying Polish (not in Poland, though)
and in my experience, Polish people were nonplussed by this. In fact, they
were rather consistently cold and unhelpful. Their attitude seemed to be
"Polish is for Poles, why are you intruding?" I'm curious to know if this is
endemic or if I just fell afoul of small sample size. I eventually bailed and
decided to go learn a language where people would react to my feeble attempts
to speak it by kissing me and offering me food.

p.s. Knowledge of English grammar would be nice, but you're overestimating how
much it would help you learn a Slavic language. Latin actually would be
better, because like Latin the Slavic languages are still highly inflected
(i.e. they vary word endings by case). Anyway, you'd be better off learning
from an undergraduate Polish grammar textbook in English, or, if you can read
it, a children's grammar in Polish.

~~~
mootothemax
Hi there!

 _How do Poles react to your attempts to learn Polish_

I think you were a victim of a small sample size :) All the Polish people I've
met have been seriously impressed with my attempts to speak and learn Polish.
For those that don't speak English, the effect's the same, usually with a
smile on their face. There's one shop I love going to as the various staff
there always try and have a conversation with me in Polish, very friendly and
patiently.

The reason I need English grammar is because the description of grammar
doesn't make any sense to me - I'm at the real basic stage of working out when
to use adjective forms of a noun and so on. Shameful, but true sadly.

~~~
gruseom
Oh, that's good to hear. I had a feeling my experience was atypical.

------
w1ntermute
Rosetta Stone sucks, don't go anywhere near it. Pimsleur & Michel Thomas are
nice, particularly if the length of one lesson is equal to one half of your
daily commute.

AJATT's a great website for learning Japanese - you might be able to adapt it
to Arabic: <http://www.alljapaneseallthetime.com/>

At the core of AJATT are the following principles:

1\. Total immersion

2\. Use of an SRS (Anki is free, cross-platform, & open source) to learn
vocabulary IN CONTEXT

3\. Language exchange with a Skype buddy to work on pronunciation

I don't know if #3 would be adequate for mastering Arabic pronunciation
though. Japanese pronunciation is relatively easy for native English speakers
so it's not an issue, but you might have to find somebody IRL to help you out.

------
nickpinkston
The actual best way is to move to the country where it's spoken and get
friends (ideally a sexual partner) who speak that language exclusively. You'll
gain proficiently very quickly. Of course, it's going to be harder to do that
with Arabic.

I've never had a lot of luck with Rosetta. It often came away with the wrong
meaning of the words, etc. I prefer knowing a little of the basic grammer to
see what's going on first. This makes it easier to learn other related
languages.

I learned a good amount of French in a few days because the verb forms and
latin roots are so similar. Rosetta is like asking a native speaker the rules
of their grammer. Can you say why you speak the way you do - other than "that
is/ is not right"? I can't very well.

------
tmsh
For Arabic, check out Al-Kitaab (and its predecessor book) at Amazon.com
(worth reading the reviews, imho). Part of a three year course. Still I think
forms the basis for most university programs. May be available on the
internets.

Some day it'd be great to have rich, interactive ways to do learning. Rosetta
Stone is cool. My experience is that this is good for a
colloquial/conversational emphasis. It's all about details at some point
though -- so Alif Baa / Al-Kitaab might not be so bad.

Personally, I don't know Arabic -- but I had a friend who was staying with us
who was studying it at a university -- so I was curious to look it up. There
are a lot of different theories about the best way to learn language:
immersion, multimedia, native speakers, etc. I think when you're learning a
language for the first time though, there's so much ground to cover, that it
doesn't matter which direction you take. The best direction is the one you can
go furthest in (is the most sustainable because of interest, convenience,
availability, etc.) which is most positive and least negative. I.e., we don't
learn a language perfectly the first 100 times traversing through it. But
gradually we get there.

But it's probably like with programming -- the most undervalued link is
actually just putting yourself in front of it (as much as possible, in a
sustainable manner). This can be something as simple as eating at a restaurant
where they speak Arabic. Or it can be flashcards, etc. At any rate, I guess
they still use it at Midd too (I'm from California -- UC Berkeley and
Stanford, I think use Al-Kitaab too, or used to):

<http://www.middlebury.edu/ls/arabic/curriculum/courses>

But yeah, depending on interests / how engaged you'll be with the language in
the future (reading a newspaper can be both a goal and a tool -- but only if
you really need it / want it), it probably all depends.

------
rjett
I recently had a conversation with my best friend's grandmother, who floated
from Cuba to Puerto Rico at the age of 27 (and 30 years later moved to Miami).
At the time, to obtain work in Puerto Rico, you were required to be proficient
in English. Since she didn't know any English and had less than $5 to her
name, her solution was to watch television only in English, read stuff that
was only published in English, and eventually she said she refused to talk to
anyone if they weren't using English. After a year of this, she knew enough to
get a job. Similarly, I have another friend who is part Cuban whose dad
learned English by watching tons of Sesame Street and English news programs.

------
CrackKid
I've gotten thoroughly conversational in both German and Russian in the course
of about a year by my own, somewhat unconventional method, which I see no
reason couldn't also be applied to Arabic (though it'll probably take a decent
bit longer):

1) Learn to read the alphabet, including as much pronunciation as possible
(Trivial with German, slightly harder with Russian)

2) Learn just enough grammar to be able to recognize units of meaning and
general semantic structure(ie be able to recognize generally when somethings a
new word vs a new form of an old word, as well as word order). If you spend
more than a week on this, you've spent far too much time.

3) Scour the web for children's stories and other material aimed at beginning
readers. Pop the stories into google translate, and go word by word, making
sure to distinguish each's meaning. Don't worry about consciously memorizing
words, just cram in the volume. Aim for an hour a day. Subvocalise so you get
the idea of the sounds of words

4) Once you're getting through stories with relative ease, search out video
material where both the audio and the subtitles are in that language (This may
be hard, depending on the language. Anime is a GREAT source of this type of
thing for Russian). Speak along with the dialogue.

5) Once your comprehension's gotten good, seek out native speakers, and pester
them to all ends of the earth (I admit unfair advantage in having a ready
supply of conversational partners in both languages). Quantity, quantity,
quantity.

I feel this approach trades off comprehensibility and fluency for absolute
grammaticaloty, though I wonder if it might have gotten me past the toil
threshhold (the line at which it is pleasurable, rather than a chore, to
consume media/converes in a lanuage) a bit faster, with commesurate long term
learning benefits.

------
jastuk
I learned 3(ish) languages with actually no real intention. Its nothing mind-
blowing - just a story. These concepts should pretty much be well known.

First one - English: I pretty much grasped the concept of English language
simply by watching (a lot - and for years) Cartoon Network as a kid (FYI: my
parents don't speak languages other than Croatian). And I probably watched all
those cartoons over and over as they were replayed. When I got to the point
where English was thought in school, I pretty much knew everything they were
gonna teach us - it was just brushing out the knowledge correctly, and most
importantly - putting it to use. Later, since I was around computers (and even
later - internet), it all came to me naturally word-by-word since I was using
English actively.

German: During those active cartoon watching days, Cartoon Network got
"locked", and I switched to a German program where I watched (german synced)
anime. The "putting it to use" part did not happen with German language, so
even tho I cant really speak properly today (never studied or used it), I do
however find it that I can understand 85% of the time exactly what they are
saying (i can even read properly many things). I have a really hard time doing
the talking since I've always listened (the cartoons) and never actually
talked - never put it to use.

Today, as a 20ish year old guy - I'm studying Japanese (anime history & Go
board game - kinda just kicked in), and I find it that I have a really hard
time expanding my vocabulary. I am missing all that easy long-time immersion
in the language that previously did the trick. Now I gotta hard-study it. I
guess I could watch a lot of Japanese movies & anime but I don't really have
the time or will to do so today.

------
aquateen
I've taken one year of Arabic. The first two quarters were with a white girl
from Alabama who studied at the AUC. She was great. The last quarter was from
a Moroccan, he was not. Point being don't put too much weight into having a
native speaker.

I think the Pimsleur audio lessons are nice for Spanish and French, not so
much for Arabic. I think the best route (barring immersion study) is to take
classes, or do self study with the Al-Kitaab textbook and then take more
advanced classes (as my first teacher did).

------
endtime
I took Italian for two semesters, an hour a day five days a week, and was
pretty good by the end of it. It took me three years of Hebrew two days a week
and then a month in Haifa to get to the same level.

If you only care about conversation and not reading or writing, a foreign
girlfriend can work well too, if she's sufficiently patient.

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kelvinjones
You have to completely immerse yourself in the language, none of this learning
from a CD bull __ __.

I've seen first-hand how hard it can be for people to learn a language with a
completely different alphabet. Try and learn the spoken language to at least a
conversational level, until you attempt to learn the written form.

If I could give 3 tips, I would suggest:

1\. If it's an option, move to a country that speaks the language as a first
language, and if you can limit the amount of English contact you have 2\.
Focus on grammar as well as vocabulary 3\. Over-expose yourself to the
language… watch Arabic tv, listen to Arabic radio and music …etc.

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raphar
I'm of the written/read type. The advantage you have with these skills is that
you have all the time you need to acquire them. This was okay to me while I
didn't have to interact with native speakers. When the time came, I found
myself unable to interact (due to lack of conversational skills...)

The thing that helped me the most was chatting by msn with my coworkers (not
cellphone). You have the structure of a conversation with read/write times.
You also get the latest jargon and regionalisms in written. Don't overlook
this useful resource!!!

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rada
The best way is immersion (roommates, television, taking regular college
classes in another languages, etc) but if that's not something you can do, the
next best thing is to get gigs translating documents. Underbid professional
interpreters and be upfront about the time it will take. If possible, start
with technical documents such as electronics manuals - they require minimum
grammar and vocabulary. It worked for me to get started on English... when you
have a paid gig with a deadline, you are much more motivated.

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natgordon
Are you using an SRS (Spaced Repetition) flashcard program? It helps if you're
starting and stopping because it will force you to review all the words,
grammar, sentences etc. that you used to know.

You can fit it into any other learning you do. It really helps put things into
your "long-term memory".

Software: Mnemosyne - <http://www.mnemosyne-proj.org/> Anki -
<http://ichi2.net/anki/>

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techietim
If there are any English speaking Canadian students out there who would like
to learn or boost your French, I highly recommend the Explore [1] program.
It's 5-weeks of French immersion that you will never forget. Being forced to
speak, listen, and live the language is the best way to learn.

[1] <http://www.myexplore.ca/en/>

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matthewphiong
Personally for me, the best way to learn a new speaking language is by
conversing in that language. When I was in college, I'm 'forced' to speak in
Mandarin as most of my friends speak Mandarin. Within 3 months I can converse
pretty well in Mandarin. I listen when my friends speak, catch the
pronunciation and repeat that. The loop goes on until I can speak with
confidence.

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tokenadult
I've been a Chinese-English interpreter and translator after learning Chinese
as a second language. You can find many tips

<http://learninfreedom.org/languagebooks.html>

that worked for me that should help you too. These days Internet radio helps
learners. I didn't have that when I started out.

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jscore
I speak 4 languages. Russian is my native; I then learned English, Spanish and
Portuguese.

There's only so much you can learn from books and taking lessons. My skills
really took off to fluency level when I moved to the particular country (US,
Mexico, Brazil, respectively) for at least few months (I would say at least 6
months) and practiced with native speakers.

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parktheredcar
I didn't personally like Rosetta Stone for Japanese, but everyone else I've
talked to really likes it. How about that in combination with a little bit of
full immersion on the web? Instead of CNN, try reading Al Jazeera or
something. You can see the language as it's used in practice today while
catching up on things that interest you.

------
da5e
A tool I've found handy is the multi-lingual Text to Speech program at
<http://text-to-speech.imtranslator.net/speech.asp>

It's got pretty good voices and it can speak your text at 6 different speeds
in 10 languages in a male or female voice.

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rhhfla
From personal experience I would recommend taking the equivalent of a high
school language course to understand the logic of a language and some
vocabulary and then moving to a remote location to work where nobody speaks
English. Andean mining camps really helped my Spanish to become fluent.

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wallflower
When I was in Spain, I talked with a number of adult immigrants about how long
it took to become fluent in Spanish. They all said three years and that the
first year (of complete immersion) was the hardest. Because they struggled
with daily tasks. Watching movies with subtitles helped.

------
mhd
"I give the advice for what it's worth: if you wish to learn a foreign tongue
properly, study it in bed with a native girl. I'd have got more out of the
classics from an hour's wrestling with a Greek wench than I did in four years
of Study at school."

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thedjpetersen
I moved to France, and painfully became more apt in the language out of
necessity.

------
adaline
I watched alot of cartoons in the second language, fun and easy to pick up :)

------
JohnIdol
Need to have a grasp of basic grammar - after that it's all conversation, if
you can't talk to real people watch tons of TV/Movies with subtitles (both
movie and subs in original language of course).

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aristus
I've been using software from Fluenz, which works really well for me for
Spanish. I'm also lucky to live with a native speaker, and we watch movies
with the sound or subtitles swapped.

------
mvalle
The Best Method to Master a Foreign Language, Guaranteed:
<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1381278>

------
mkramlich
Hasn't this been well covered in books already?

Summary: study, listen, speak, converse (esp with native speakers), immerse,
repeat. Add read and write for bonus points.

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rradu
Go to the language's native country or spend time with people that speak that
language. All other methods have failed to teach me to fluently speak another
language.

------
bond
I learned English by watching cartoons when i was a kid... Matched the
subtitles to what they were saying and doing that everyday i managed to
learn...

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polomasta
hands down, THE best way to learn a language is to live in a country where
they speak that language for at least 3 months. it's the fastest and most
effective (ie, you don't forget it as easily as book learning)

------
lurchpop
might be tl;drs in here. Best thing I learned here is the app ANKI!
<http://ichi2.net/anki/>

Simple flash card app that's amazing for vocab. Good luck, man.

------
revorad
If you want to learn Hindi, I'm posting some video and text lessons at
<http://hindipedia.com>. I've not been able to do this as often as I'd like
to, but I will try to keep up whenever I can. Please tell me what you'd like
to learn.

------
jdavid
at startup weekend i started working on a browser plugin to help build vocab,
by replacing a few words with the equivalent in the foreign language.

i call it babelfin.

------
iterationx
Read read read read. And then do some more reading.

~~~
fgf
Yes, but don't forget pronunciation.

~~~
mhd
This is actually the most important thing. Have an awful vocabulary, a
rudimentary grammar, but get the pronunciation right. You can always buff up
on your words or rules, but getting rid of an atrocious accent is very hard to
do. Utterly impossible if you're Styrian.

I wonder whether singing helps. The overall musical structure might make
proper phonetics easier to memorize; on the other hand I've heard quite a lot
of people who can sing without an accent, but sound very differently when
actually speaking. Maybe it is too much rote memorization.

~~~
nandemo
I won't go as far as to say that singing is ineffective but, putting it at
another way, you can sing in a foreign language pretty well without being able
to speak that language.

------
antosha
"The best way to learn a new language is in the horizontal position [i.e. with
a lover]." — Recently retired NPR correspondent in Moscow

------
benologist
By moving to central america.

------
Mz
Nothing new, really. Others have already suggested these tactics. But this is
my story:

I grew up in a bilingual home but was not raised bilingual. I used to nag my
mother incessantly to teach me German words and I picked up some vocabulary
that way. I also used audiotapes some. When I was 16, a friend of the family
got married and several of her relatives came, some of whom spoke no English.
I finally began speaking German during the month they were visiting. I later
lived in Germany as an adult -- not really in an immersion setting, though,
because I mostly interacted with American military families and mostly spoke
English. Still, living there did improve my spoken German a good deal. I speak
conversational German but really can't read or write it that well and can't
much follow the news because they use words I don't know. I studied French
formally in school for a time. I read and write it a little bit but really
don't speak it fluently and never developed an ear for it. Growing up in a
home where I heard German regularly meant I started out with an ear for it,
and that really helped.

FWIW: My mother has said she learned English by watching TV. I have found that
helpful with trying to pick up a little Spanish but I am really not persistent
enough with it.

------
tkahn6
FWIW Arabic is apparently ridiculously hard to become fluent in. This is
according to one of my friends that speaks English, Hebrew, and Spanish and
whose dad speaks Arabic (and English, and Hebrew, and French).

