
Mpv drops GNOME support (reverted later) - smnthermes
https://linuxreviews.org/Mpv_drops_GNOME_support
======
qalmakka
Since GNOME 3 has launched almost 10 ago, the whole environment has been
crashing down an endless downward spiral of shortsightedness and idiocy.
Replacing what was probably one of the clearest and simplest UIs ever made for
an iPad-like, user-hostile interface that threw away decades of well known,
polished UX was a gigantic, unforgivable middle finger to their users. A
clumsy, me-too shitfest of minimalism that never managed to achieve anything
but complicating computing by removing things, all for the sake of an
unrealistic ideal of simplicity that nobody ever asked for. GNOME 2 was
_already_ simple, intuitive and clear. It was feature rich, but easy to
understand and use.

GNOME 3 removed everything, feature by feature, without realising that
everything was simply becoming more complicated. Having to install at least 3
extensions in order to make a desktop environment behave the way it is
supposed to is asinine, and it feels like they totally forgot who their target
users are.

Plus, GNOME has been deliberately hostile towards anything non-GNOME for so
long now that I am surprised there aren't more people out there telling them
to screw themselves. GTK+ has also been monopolised by them and it's become
harder release after release to keep track to what they were doing to the
point that some devs actually found rewriting everything using Qt a more
productive way to spend their time.

~~~
blibble
I can barely figure out how to use the GTK+3 open dialog

    
    
      - why is "recent items" first?
      - why are the folders down the side random paths?
      - why is there no place to enter a path?
      - why does it do a recursive search when I type in the window?
    

how to make an open dialog was pretty much perfected by MS 20 years ago

~~~
drran
> \- why is "recent items" first?

1\. It saves tons of time.

> \- why are the folders down the side random paths?

2\. Same as 1.

> why is there no place to enter a path?

3\. Because of 1, 2, and 4. Use ^L, when you need it.

> \- why does it do a recursive search when I type in the window?

4\. Same as 1.

~~~
_tulpa
> 3\. Because of 1, 2, and 4. Use ^L, when you need it.

> 4\. Same as 1.

> ... saves tons of time

No. It really fucking doesn't.

How is it ever supposed to be faster to try and figure out which search result
for 'index.html' is the file in the somewhat-cluttered folder _I just fucking
navigated to for the express purpose of opening index.html_ , so that I don't
end up selecting another file named 'index.html' from one of the subfolders?
Just jump to the goddamn file in the current folder as I type, it's so much
faster, and it's what everyone who has ever used the type-while-in-a-file-
dialog feature expects to happen anyway.

Also how have people not figured out that file search on your local computer
kinda really sucks? The stuff you want to search for probably doesn't have a
unique/meaningful file name. Folders namespace non-unique file names, and the
full path then has some semantic meaning. And since humans are pretty good at
semantics, we seem to be pretty good at navigating the semantic hierarchy of
where we put stuff. Recursive search makes you read some inevitably tiny and
low-contrast text to get the meaning back. Useful if you're truly lost but
absolutely 100% not useful as the global default.

Also also, what the hell do we do with years (decades?) of muscle-memory?
Pretty much everyone else still uses the old behavior too so if you're cross-
platform (or use only some stuff that is GTK3) that muscle memory isn't going
away.

Also also also, why the shitting fuck was #3 not the new default behavior (or
why isn't the old default the new default for that matter). Why isn't this
only-sometimes-useful recursive search bullshit hidden behind some non-
intuitive undiscoverable hotkey?

------
Hamuko
Not at all surprising that wm4 committed that. He makes all of the best mpv
commits anyways. Here's just a couple ones I quickly dug up:

[https://github.com/mpv-
player/mpv/commit/7d11eda72e90d7aa9df...](https://github.com/mpv-
player/mpv/commit/7d11eda72e90d7aa9df25127bd810aa7b191029c)

[https://github.com/mpv-
player/mpv/commit/c4dc600f1f2e08f87cf...](https://github.com/mpv-
player/mpv/commit/c4dc600f1f2e08f87cf8147098c1559607464824)

[https://github.com/mpv-
player/mpv/commit/1e70e82baa9193f6f02...](https://github.com/mpv-
player/mpv/commit/1e70e82baa9193f6f027338b0fab0f5078971fbe)

~~~
sitzkrieg
holy cow that last one is work of art

~~~
nullc
I mean, he's not wrong.

Existence of locale means you essentially cannot safely use standard libc
string functions in library code or in threaded software, particularly when
interacting with a file format where stuff like number formatting is
normative.

The fixes are really pretty incomplete and the result is people ending up
having to ship their own implementations of these functions ... which
interacts poorly with all the effort going in to harden string functions
because they're a constant source of vulnerabilities.

The situation for libraries that call libraries where the middle library
really needs to get things right and the called library can be more YOLO about
it is ... pretty absurd.

~~~
qalmakka
Add this to the fact that the vast majority of libc functions are either
obsolete or simply designed for another era, and it can become a quite
daunting feat trying to write C code without shooting yourself in the face.
C++ isn't in a great position either (the whole std::locale fiasco is very
similar), but at least the standards since C++11 have had the guts to actually
attempt fixing the warts instead of simply ignoring problems altogether.

All C standards since C99 have been ugly mishmashes of C++ features and bad
ideas, one after another. What everyone was clearly asking them was to just
copy-paste stuff from POSIX, and instead they came up with stupid nonsense
like VLA or things nobody uses, like the [static N] syntax for arrays. I also
still find absurd someone thought it was a good idea to add stuff as critical
as threads.h without asking implementers first if they liked it (fun fact no
one did).

What I think is a massive indicator of how much disconnected they are from
reality is the "memory safe string handling" they added in C11 with those
crappy *_s functions, which a. were just annoyingly slightly different from
what POSIX and Win32 had and b. used a totally lunatic error reporting system
based on callbacks and `set_constraint_handler_s()` - because obviously when a
call to memset_s() fails I totally want a random function to run, for what for
I still don't understand after 9 years. People just wanted the BSD's _l
functions, and they gave them a memcpy() that called a random callback. No
wonder C2X just wants to quietly pretend these abominations nobody ever
implemented never happened.

What no one has ever had enough guts to admit is that 1. C strings, i.e. null-
terminated strings, were a terrible mistake and 2. that C badly needs a new
string library, or at least something that people can use without risking
leaking their whole address space by accident.

~~~
nullc
> write C code without shooting yourself in the face

Use absolutely no strings. :)

But right. :)

~~~
craftinator
Instead of strings, you could just use binary bitmaps and directly manipulate
those into text!

~~~
nullc
No worse than UTF16... :P

------
SimilarGeneral1
Before the posts were censored

[https://www.reveddit.com/r/linux/comments/hnoksv/mpv_devs_co...](https://www.reveddit.com/r/linux/comments/hnoksv/mpv_devs_consider_blocking_mpv_from_running_on/)

Original

[https://old.reddit.com/r/gnome/comments/hn1s3r/mpv_is_not_an...](https://old.reddit.com/r/gnome/comments/hn1s3r/mpv_is_not_anymore_supporting_gnome_and_the_owner/)

[https://old.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/hnoksv/mpv_devs_cons...](https://old.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/hnoksv/mpv_devs_consider_blocking_mpv_from_running_on/)

edit: removed posts are back
[https://www.reveddit.com/r/gnome/comments/hn1s3r/mpv_is_not_...](https://www.reveddit.com/r/gnome/comments/hn1s3r/mpv_is_not_anymore_supporting_gnome_and_the_owner/)

~~~
dependenttypes
Thank you for the links. Somehow snew
<[https://snew.notabug.io/r/gnome/comments/hn1s3r/mpv_is_not_a...](https://snew.notabug.io/r/gnome/comments/hn1s3r/mpv_is_not_anymore_supporting_gnome_and_the_owner>)
does not display this subthread
<[https://snew.notabug.io/r/gnome/comments/hn1s3r/mpv_is_not_a...](https://snew.notabug.io/r/gnome/comments/hn1s3r/mpv_is_not_anymore_supporting_gnome_and_the_owner/fx8vkc8/>)
(nor does it have a way to let you know that it exists). I will be using your
site from now on.

~~~
rhaksw
Snew hasn't been updated in a couple years, its author is focused on a
decentralized reddit called [https://notabug.io](https://notabug.io)

I'm the author of
[https://www.reveddit.com/about/](https://www.reveddit.com/about/). It's a
fork of removeddit that adds features like user pages and notifications when
your content is removed.

------
misnome
I can see some people being rubbed the wrong way by the language in this post
but it sounds like a reasonable criticism by someone who has gotten tired and
annoyed, and seems to mostly represent accurately the discussion in that
ticket.

Does anyone know a decent counterpoint to this? Or an argument why Gnome is
being reasonable?

~~~
hexo
Well, I don't really think the Gnome is being reasonable since they've ditched
2.34 for 3.0 pre-pre-pre-alpha and started to shove their "supremacy" to
everyone. I do really think this has nothing to do with normal community open
source project but more like being thightly controlled by a corporation that
focuses on tickets and changes for sake of doing something because someone
(and their managers) has to report and prove being sallary-worthy. So the
project is dissolving (itself; the linux "desktop"; and the public view about
it; and what is the most important - the at least somehow unified user
experience we used to have across major gui toolkits) in a highly-toxic-and-
radioactive-"opinionated" egos.

~~~
jolmg
> Well, I don't really think the Gnome is being reasonable since they've
> ditched 2.34 for 3.0 pre-pre-pre-alpha and started to shove their
> "supremacy" to everyone.

Do you by chance know of an article that documents that? I remember seeing one
back then that compiled discussions with gnome developers from multiple
sources showing that, but I've lost it since then.

~~~
hexo
I am very sorry, I don't have any. It's been a long time since then

------
GoOnThenDoTell
KDE on the other hand, is real nice these days

------
nullc
I'm unhappy with gnome too, but I run a distro because I'd prefer to do doing
something other than writing my own OS from scratch.

Unfortunately, because gnome is what most people use and what the distro
defaults to other choices are inherently second class.

I happily used xmonad for years, but eventually got forced out of it due to
compatibility especially once things started using wayland.

I wonder if us desktop users need a pact of the form that we'll stop using
gnome completely of 51% of other users also stop using gnome. :)

------
zerfall
No matter what your preference, sabotaging a desktop environment by calling
`exit();` is certainly not the way to go: you're only hurting your users.

~~~
jolmg
It's not sabotaging. It's removing support.

~~~
mumblemumble
Back in the day, that's roughly how web developers would frame it when they
tried to rationalize making websites that would deliberately refuse to load if
the user-agent said something other than "MSIE".

Removing support is a passive action; you accomplish it by just doing nothing.
Calling exit() is rather more on the aggressive side.

All that said, good on 'em. I got a decent chuckle.

~~~
NewEntryHN
> Removing support is a passive action; you accomplish it by just doing
> nothing. Calling exit() is rather more on the aggressive side.

It's more graceful than the program exiting in a bad way because you passively
decided to stop support.

------
bfrog
I guess I'm in that minority of people that left me when it went through the
boondoggle of the early super broken 4.x releases, and started using gnome 3.
Gnome 3 is distraction free to me. I don't even notice it most days.

There's a few forks and there's always elementary if you want to pay for to
truely support folks.

~~~
morsch
You're not alone. I don't know that we're the minority. Satisfied users
usually just aren't very vocal about it.

------
infinity0
I ditched GNOME in 2015 for XFCE and haven't looked back. Their attitude is
pompous and atrocious. Send them to the bins of history where they belong.

    
    
      Fck GNOME devs coming straight from tha underground
      A young hacker got it bad cos he's out
      of other FOSS choices so devs think
      They have the authority to break their reverse dependencies
      Fck that shit, cause I ain't the one
      For a brainwashed developer to be lecturing on
      "If you don't like it, just don't upgrade"
      what and use unsupported software with no security updates?
      Fcking with me cos I'm not an average user
      So I gotta put up with the preferences of pretentious designers
      Rearranging my workflow, oversimplifying their product
      Thinking every user is a fcking dumb idiot
      You'd rather see, me wasting time
      Than take responsibility for your poisonous party line.
      Pwn a GNOME dev with an 0-day
      and when I'm finished, fck with GTK
      to pad a hundred pixels inside every border
      yeah enjoy your own fcking bread and water!
      I don't know if they NSA
      Slowing hackers down, and wasting screen space
      And on the other hand, without FOSS they can't get jobs
      Cause they just failed at trying to be Steve Jobs.
      Dumbing down the ecosystem, training user ignorance,
      Spitting on those who built our community in the first place!
      Anonymous will rewrite
      Every application with a GNOME design
      Just cause I think more mathematically
      Punk designers are afraid of me!
      HUH, a young hacker on the warpath
      And when I'm finished, they'll wish they'd merged my patch
      when they had a chance, but now it's too late
      Yo J, GNOME's been replaced.
    
      Example of scene one
    
      [GNOME Dev] Pull up your goddamn debugger right now!
      [Hacker] Aww shit, now what the fuck they changing their API for?
      [GNOME Dev] Cause I feel like it! Now sit the fuck down for 16 hours and patch yo fucking software
      [Hacker] Man, fuck this shit
      [GNOME Dev] Aight smartass, I'm breaking yo entire desktop!

~~~
craftinator
Congratulations!!! You win the award for least coherent comment of the month!

