
Good sleep, good learning, good life (2012) - maoeurk
https://www.supermemo.com/en/articles/sleep
======
shittyadmin
> "We don't get enough sleep, and we are not going to "change our ways"
> because there are already too few hours in most people's days to do things
> they enjoy. Call it a sad fact of life because that's what it is"

This honestly is spot on the way I think about it - I can sleep early, but who
benefits from my day to day learning as an adult? My employer maybe? Me in
some minor long term ways?

Or I can stay up and do things I enjoy, wake myself up with an alarm every day
and consume enough caffeine to bridge the gap. This way, I get more enjoyment
out of my life in a very direct and measurable way.

If 5-6 hours of sleep a night is enough to get paid, I'm not going to make a
sacrifice that will cost me personally.

~~~
sp3000
Someone else already recommended "Why We Sleep" by the premier sleep
researcher in the field, and I highly suggest you get it. Here is a passage
from it that should make you rethink the entire rationale you are using to
shortchange yourself of sleep:

"Routinely sleeping less than six or seven hours a night demolishes your
immune system, more than doubling your risk of cancer. Insufficient sleep is a
key lifestyle factor determining whether or not you will develop Alzheimer’s
disease. Inadequate sleep—even moderate reductions for just one week—disrupts
blood sugar levels so profoundly that you would be classified as pre-diabetic.
Short sleeping increases the likelihood of your coronary arteries becoming
blocked and brittle, setting you on a path toward cardiovascular disease,
stroke, and congestive heart failure. Fitting Charlotte Brontë’s prophetic
wisdom that “a ruffled mind makes a restless pillow,” sleep disruption further
contributes to all major psychiatric conditions, including depression,
anxiety, and suicidality."

~~~
Gatsky
Remember that the author is financially incentivised to make claims about
large effect sizes of sleep deprivation, and to infer causality where it may
or may not exist.

~~~
kadendogthing
There is being skeptical and then there is baseless, conspiratorial cynicism
-- the kind that usually makes you hurt yourself.

~~~
jcoffland
And there's shaming people for having a different opinion than the majority.

~~~
kadendogthing
Opinions do not gain credence just because you hold them and they do not gain
credence or viability just because they're contrarian. No one is shaming it by
the fact that it's a minority opinion, it's just a baseless silly opinion to
have.

Don't be disingenuous.

~~~
jcoffland
> it's just a baseless silly opinion to have.

Sounds like shaming to me.

~~~
kadendogthing
No it doesn't, and it's still wouldn't be shaming for the reason you outlined.
Your entire statement is pointless if you have to crawl all the way back to a
single verb to make it relevant.

~~~
jcoffland
You sound mad.

~~~
kadendogthing
Well hopefully that hasn't affected you too much.

------
jeremieb
If you get a 403 error (as I do), here's the latest web archive capture:
[https://web.archive.org/web/20181017190008/https://www.super...](https://web.archive.org/web/20181017190008/https://www.supermemo.com/en/articles/sleep)

~~~
movedx
Thank you. I really should donate to the Web Archive because it's just such a
useful resource.

~~~
rz2k
An easy way to contribute a small amount is through Amazon Smile (0.5% of your
Amazon purchases):

[https://smile.amazon.com/gp/chpf/homepage/ref=smi_se_scyc_sr...](https://smile.amazon.com/gp/chpf/homepage/ref=smi_se_scyc_srch_stsr?q=internet+archive)

~~~
movedx
I didn't even know that existed. Cool. Thanks for the heads up.

------
spdionis
I'm lucky enough that I haven't cut on my sleep much during my adolescence or
my college studies. Today I feel awful every time I sleep less than 7 hours,
and moderately dysfunctional if I don't sleep 8 a few days in a row.

By "awful" I mean that I just think slower. It's like playing a game with lag,
not fun. I wonder if/how many people who claim they can sleep 6 hours a day
and feel fine have just gotten so used to the lag that they don't notice it
anymore.

Only thing I'm afraid of is children...

~~~
deanCommie
I have a different journey with the exact same results.

In my adolescence/college studies, I thought fast, and slept little. I could
stay up all night with friends then go to class the next morning. I spent the
first 5/6 years of my career being a top performer on 4 hours every weekday,
and catching up on 8-10 hours of sleep over each weekend night.

Then, 3 things happened almost at the same time:

1) I got a much tougher job that challenged me like I never had before (FAANG)

2) I turned 30

3) I lost the ability to sleep in on the weekends. I wake up at 8am now every
day regardless of what time I go to bed.

Until #3, I got by with coffee and still using weekends for recovery - way
more coffee. #3 ruined it.

I still got by - and was even successful.

Then,

#4) I got promoted.

Now the challenges are out of this world, and I can't sustain my lifestyle any
more. I'm struggling to adjust to going to bed early because my brain and all
my instincts are still in the mode of "Nighttime is for creativity and fun! We
can sleep when we're dead!"

But it's starting to affect my work, which in turn is stressing me out,
because I really love my job and I want to excel at it. The effects are just
as you describe - lag. I'm slow. I'm not as smart as I used to be.

So...gradually...i'm learning to force myself to sleep. I welcome tips. :S

~~~
jeremyis
I have struggled with falling asleep a lot. This has been helpful recently:
1\. 2-3 hours before bed, put away all electronics (including phone and
TV/netflix) 2\. Read a _real_ book for 1-2 hours 3\. If I can't fall asleep, I
put on Dan Carlin's Hardcore History Podcast with a sleep timer of 10 minutes.
I usually get absorbed into his story telling and it helps take my mind of
things. 4\. No alchohol during the week 5\. No caffeine after ~1pm; and only 1
coffee when I arrive at work

Admittedly, my week is a little boring this way and I still haven't worked up
to doing it consistently, but it's been much more effective than anything
else.

~~~
giu
Reading (and thus avoiding the TV and my phone) before going to sleep has done
wonders to me. I can recommend this so much. I'm sleeping so much better
thanks to this step alone.

------
dade_
I just completely broke my sleep. I was in Hong Kong, then Mountain Standard
Time and then back to Eastern. My doctor prescribed Zopiclone, so I used it
the first couple of nights when I returned. For the first time in my adult
life, I have been sleeping 8.5 hours a night. I was usually awake after 6
hours. Occasionally I could get 7.5 but generally with an interruption. It is
going to take some time to get used to and I hope it lasts, but it feels great
to make progress reading books on dry subjects on a weeknight or just being
alert in the afternoon.

We have so much to learn about the body and sleep.

~~~
IChooseYou
I found zopiclone to be addictive. You have the most amazing sleep for the
first few days when you take it. Then afterwards when you stop taking it, you
get the absolute worst sleep: barely hitting REM, constantly waking up,
difficulty falling asleep.

I think: diphenhydramine or melatonin might be a safer bet for some people.
Never take it more than a few days in a row.

~~~
flatline
Some people also have luck with Magnesium L-Threonate

~~~
ryall
Yep, Magnesium works for me big time. I take a powdered form which seems a lot
more effective than pills. Still wake up in the middle of the night sometimes
but can get back to sleep easily without my brain switching into overdrive.

Melatonin definitely knocked me out, but I woke up groggy feeling like I
hadn't slept at all

~~~
a008t
Do you take L-threonate or other versions? Have you tried stopping it - did
things get worse than before you started?

------
jpm_sd
I just read "Why We Sleep" which covers a lot of the same territory. Vital
information, should be in the Human Brain Owner's Manual.

------
dang
Discussed in 2013:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5244619](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5244619)

and in 2010:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1207945](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1207945)

------
ramoz
I fast and maintain a ketogenic diet. Its 5:45am as Im typing this. Ive been
up since 4. Went to bed at 11. Currently on hour 35 of a fast that I plan to
end mid morning. Unless I still feel "great"...

I have high mental clarity currently. I had high mental clarity when I went to
sleep. I did have issues sleeping, but this is nothing new on a ketogenic and
fasting state.

From the vast research I've done, sleeping may be more important on a high-
insulin-fluctuating diet. However, when the body and brain are fat adapted
(less insulin), there is a constant fuel source. The brain operates very
efficiently on ketones. Also, important to note that when fasting and doing
keto, you must supplement electrolytes.

There is a lot more to all of this and the notion behind the importance of
sleep. Anecdotally, diet proves to be more important for me. Do your own
research.

related: [https://www.alzheimers.net/diabetes-of-the-
brain/](https://www.alzheimers.net/diabetes-of-the-brain/)

~~~
YuukiRey
> From the vast research I've done, sleeping may be more important on a high-
> insulin-fluctuating diet.

Could you link to some of your peer-reviewed articles in moderate-to-high
impact journals? I'd be really interested in hearing about that vast body of
research.

~~~
dang
Please don't post snarky comments to HN, and especially not predictable snark
tropes. We're hoping for thoughtful conversation here.

[https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html](https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html)

------
frankida
I found a 2017 update version of this article.

[http://super-memory.com/articles/sleep.htm](http://super-
memory.com/articles/sleep.htm)

------
solipsism
The arrogance in this thread is incredible. Legions of people pointing to pop
science books and talking about how horrible their life would be if they
weren't getting their 8 hours. Phrases like "have some respect for yourself"
and "you're not getting the most out of life".

Do what works for you, but do remember that your life is just another
anecdote. Stop telling others how to live their lives.

I stay up way too late all the time. My sleep is irregular. I rarely get as
much sleep as I would if I went to bed at 10pm every night. And yet I'm
extremely healthy, I pop out of bed every morning, and I'm always in a good
mood. I don't get colds, I don't have memory problems... I don't have any of
the horrible effects you all are _sure_ I must have because your book says I
must.

~~~
erfgh
Well, you will have them sooner or later. Aging changes you dramatically.

But I agree with you, if you get less sleep than generally recommended and you
feel fine, then there is little point in sleeping more.

~~~
YuukiRey
I disagree. How would you know that you're fine? There are studies that
support the claim that people quickly adapt to their sleep deprived self and
regard that as the new norm. That's precisely one of the dangers: that you are
not aware of your sleep deprivation.

Obviously, many detrimental effects of sleep deprivation only kick in after
many years. And then there are the outliers. Just because you can cross the
street blindfolded with headphones on without checking traffic doesn't mean it
can generally be considered safe.

~~~
solipsism
And there's not nearly enough evidence to establish the causal links that you
are so certain of. I get that it "makes sense" to you. It fits in with your
worldview. But that's not how science works.

"Studies have shown" is the classic hint that "this person has no clue that
they're talking about".

Show me specific reproduced experimental studies with proper controls, talk
about effect size, and then there would be no argument. Such proof has failed
to arise for countless health trends in the past, no matter how intuitive they
may have been.

------
ilamont
Does anybody else split their sleep into two periods? I've done this out of
necessity at several points in my life, first more than 20 years ago when I
worked at a job that required me to get up at 3 in the morning and then more
recently when I find I do my best work at night (last night, for instance,
working at 1 am) but have to get up at 6:30 to help my kids get ready for
school. I work from home and can set my own schedule, so I can go back to
sleep for a few hours in the mid morning but I am not sure if this is optimal
in terms of getting enough sleep or the "right" kind of sleep.

~~~
Nilef
Interested to hear more - What time do you sleep? How long for, in each
period? How long have you being doing this? Whats the effect been?

~~~
ilamont
Currently, 6 hours at night (from about midnight to 6:30 am) and then another
90 minutes to two hours from around 8:30 to 10:30. I started last month.

I feel that I need to do it, as it's very difficult for me to go to sleep
before midnight and if I don't get the mid-morning sleep I will be ineffective
in the morning. At first I felt bad about doing it (going back to sleep when
everyone else is working) but I usually work until about 9 pm at night as well
as on the weekends for about 3 or 4 hours on Saturday and Sunday so I feel I
am working a normal amount, just at really odd times. And I feel much more
productive, particularly in the afternoon which I used to reserve for low-
brain activity work.

It replaces a much shorter catnap I used to take in the mid-afternoon, which I
have been doing for some years. I no longer need to do that.

------
ambicapter
Honestly, quantity of sleep pales in comparison to the ability to focus, for
me (I get enough sleep. I go to the gym. I still can't focus).

~~~
PascLeRasc
Have you ever tried L-Theanine? It's a wonder drug for me.

~~~
lexpar
I would like to chime in that I also very much enjoy L-Theanine. In addition
to (I think) helping me focus, it has an even more pronounced effect on
anxiety. When I take L-Theanine and have some obtrusive thought -- cooked up
especially to make me anxious by some adversarial force deep in my sub
conscious -- I can pretty easily let it go. Most noticeably, the strong 'pit
in the stomach' feeling that both signals and reinforces anxiety is absent.

I would encourage nearly anyone to try it. It's an amino acid found in the
highest concentrations in green tea. If you've ever had a couple cups of green
tea and noticed you feel relaxed and focused, you might want to try an
L-Theanine supplement.

~~~
shostack
How do dosages from a couple cups of green tea compare with a supplement's
dosage? Are the effects comparable?

------
Apocryphon
At the risk of starting a conversation that's more about general insomnia and
tangential to the article, has anyone dealt with early morning insomnia? This
article doesn't seem to mention it, but I'm wondering if resetting one's
circadian rhythms will help.

~~~
TheSpiceIsLife
I get this a lot. I tend to sleep for between four and six hours, so if I fall
asleep at 22:00 I’m awake at 04:00 it earlier.

This isn’t so bad because I’m at work at 06:00 anyway. But it’s no fun if I
sleep earlier.

I recently went to doc and said as much. Got prescription for 25 temazepam to
take as needed in the AM to get me back to sleep.

I don’t use them much, but knowing they’re there helps a lot.

My other tactics are: jog after work and a few sets on the heavy dumbbells. No
food or drink for two hours prior to retiring.

Plus, I keep a bottle of liquid melatonin (sub lingual) and a phased release
melatonin tablet (swallowed) by my bed. I’ll otfen have a dose of the liquid
melatonin plus a tablet as I lay down and read a book in bed. The liquid acts
rapidly, tablet less so.

I find this combination of food restriction, plus excercise, plus melatonin,
plus reading novels, gives me waaaaaay better sleep than reading HN all night
;)

------
k__
_" We don't get enough sleep, and we are not going to "change our ways"
because there are already too few hours in most people's days to do things
they enjoy"_

Speak for yourself.

In sleep about 9h a day.

------
sireat
What are some good options for tracking your sleep quality(deep sleep etc)?

Sleep clinic would be the most precise but personally I think it induces its
own bias as we sleep best in our own beds. Hopefully we sleep in our own beds
most of the time.

So what consumer choices are there?

Apple Watch is what I read in this thread but any other fitness
trackers/phones with reasonable accuracy ?

I am very doubtful of just a phone app accuracy without some on body sensors.

~~~
erfgh
If you don't feel sleepy during the next day, you had a good sleep. Nothing
further needed. Why do people today want to insert a gadget/app into
everything they do? Too much disposable income? Try investing it for your
retirement or something.

~~~
sireat
It's not quite as simple as that if the many posts on importance of good sleep
here on HN indicate anything.

Sometimes you might wake from 7.5 hours of sleep groggy and with a headache
and sometimes you might feel fresh after 6 hours.

If good sleep is one of the most important things in prolonging and improving
your quality of life then it would make sense to take advantage of modern
technology to track it.

What's the point of investing extra $100 for retirement if you do not live to
enjoy it?

Besides, I live in a country where retirement is far from certain.

I would at least like to know the optimal time for waking up.

~~~
erfgh
Optimal time for waking up is whenever you wake up without an alarm clock.

~~~
sireat
How many people have the luxury of waking up without an alarm clock ?

Also waking up without an alarm clock can sometimes lead to oversleeping which
is not optimal either.

Ever wake up groggy and with a headache on a Sunday morning after 10 hours of
sleep?

------
__initbrian__
I've been having trouble getting the page to load. I noticed I'm not alone.
Anyone care to speculate on why and how I can avoid this on my sites in the
future? I'm guessing someone in devops or sysadmin or with experience would
have a good guess

------
neves
The Supermemo is an excellent resource for learning and memory. Full of top
notch content.

------
sand33pn
The article link gives a 403 error. Any other link?

Edit: [http://super-memory.com/articles/sleep.htm](http://super-
memory.com/articles/sleep.htm) this seems to be the same article.

~~~
knight17
Here you go : [https://archive.fo/9kz4u](https://archive.fo/9kz4u)

~~~
sand33pn
Thank you!

------
z3t4
If you visit HN after midnight- This should be the top story

------
fluxon
Still 403 as of 18:31PDT. server fell over. :(hope it comes back:)

------
tuxguy
The link is down, does anyone know of a mirror/backup ?

~~~
ernsheong
Should the page go down again:
[https://app.pagedash.com/p/322a3507-a4cd-44e0-acd9-9adf52b3d...](https://app.pagedash.com/p/322a3507-a4cd-44e0-acd9-9adf52b3dcba/xPSsOwLXl1bzgzN8fpun)

------
vonnik
Mods: This link is broken and giving a 403 error.

------
jger15
Oh weird, link is broken

------
ThisIsSavo
403 forbidden. :(

~~~
ernsheong
It's back up. Should it go down again:
[https://app.pagedash.com/p/322a3507-a4cd-44e0-acd9-9adf52b3d...](https://app.pagedash.com/p/322a3507-a4cd-44e0-acd9-9adf52b3dcba/xPSsOwLXl1bzgzN8fpun)

------
niceworkbuddy
What did you have done to the page... Now it's dead.

------
drc0
tldr, do not make kids

------
mjberg01
Hi - I'm one of the co-founders of Somni. We've built a product to address
chronic sleep deprivation [https://puresomni.com](https://puresomni.com)

Our bundled sleep therapy program includes sleep coaching, education packs,
sleep health products and sleep tracking to help you get better sleep so
you're healthier and more productive.

please email at matt@puresomni.com if you have any questions.

