
Goodyear Hid Evidence of 'The Worst Tire in History' Linked to at Least 9 Deaths - Huhty
https://jalopnik.com/how-goodyear-hid-evidence-of-the-worst-tire-made-in-his-1822200424
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virgilp
But... why? I will never understand the thinking that goes into doing stuff
like this, especially within a mega-corp. It's the same as with diesel-
emissions cheating: if you're successful with that product, you're basically
guaranteed to get caught eventually. And if you start from the assumption that
it's not going to be a successful product... why even bother?

~~~
Tuna-Fish
As you have formulated it, this is a textbook example of the principal-agent
problem. Given your assumptions:

For the company, these kinds of systemic failures are unquestionably bad.

For the specific employees making each decision, this might have been the
utility-maximizing choice. All they need to do is to keep the wheels rolling
(sorry) and profit coming in until they are out.

No amount of punishing the company can fix this. In order to fix the problem,
prosecutors need to go after the individuals who made the calls.

~~~
sologoub
Completely agree, but as with the VW case, I’d argue that many in management
who knew and allowed it will not be punished.

~~~
vinay427
Certainly, but justice is rarely carried out perfectly accurately. Hopefully
getting close enough will send a warning of the consequences of such a
decision to others in the industry.

As an aside: A good number of people in Europe will apparently prematurely die
as a result of their actions, so if nothing else, it will be incredibly
difficult for many of these guilty employees to justify their actions even to
themselves.

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nimos
Seems kind of crazy things can be sealed like this in cases regarding public
safety.

~~~
kevingadd
There was a recent incident where an assault victim was forbidden from
speaking at her attacker's sentencing (criminal!) hearing because of a non-
disclosure agreement attached to a past civil settlement.

The US's approach to secrecy is... a mess.

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ericcumbee
Seems like a case where the cover-up is actually worse than the crime. From
reading the article I did not see where Goodyear marketed the Tire as being
suitable for use on RVs. If that is the case the worst they should be held
liable for is failing to re-iterate the fact that they should not be used on
RVs.

~~~
tomkarlo
Goodyear was selling them directly to RV manufacturers as the OEM tire for
popular models. It's hard to believe they either didn't know they were going
to be used on RVs, or did but were upfront about the risks.

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King-Aaron
The issue with the tires aside - because that is appalling in itself - I have
to wonder what safety standards RV's have to be built to? Because to me, they
appear to be little more than a truck-style ladder chassis mated to a
fibreglass caravan shell (in essence). Any level of accident in one seems like
it would result in serious injury.

In the US, do passengers in them have to wear seat belts? And do the vehicles
undergo crash testing to the same standards as conventional truck cabs?

~~~
RegBarclay
RVs are not crash tested. Seat belt regulations vary by state, but in general,
driver and passenger positions are required to wear seat belts.

RV construction varies quite a bit from truck chassis to motor coach
conversions.

There are lots of accident scenarios, but when it comes to crashing with other
vehicles, RVs do have mass on their side. Mine is 10 tons. Passenger cars
don't scare me. I don't want to have a tire blowout. I don't want to roll it.
I don't want to tangle with tractor trailers. These things would go poorly.

~~~
King-Aaron
> I don't want to roll it.

Im surprised they don't have a rigid frame / internal roll bars etc. I suppose
there's so much weight in the vehicle already it's just additional mass.

Your comment about passenger cars not scaring you made me laugh however... I
drive a mx5/miata everywhere.. Literally every other vehicle on the road
scares me, and I have a full roll cage :P

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londons_explore
Do they actually fail when not underinflated, not overloaded, and not driven
above the speed limit?

0.2% of these tyres have failed. I can completely believe that far more than
0.2% of tyres are driven overspeed, underinflated or overloaded in their
lifetime.

I can't really blame a tyre company for making a tyre which fails when used
outside it's advertised specifications.

~~~
rtkwe
The issue is without a recall/advisory consumers won't know that their tires
are potentially dangerous. When buying a vehicle (or any item really) the
customer should be able to assume that the product isn't dangerously
underspeced in some way. If the specs were well communicated to the
manufacturers of the RVs (and possibly tire shops) then it's not Goodyear's
fault that the tires were put on RVs where they were unfit for the purpose.
What is their fault though is that when the problem came to light they moved
to protect themselves and prevent the problem from coming to light through the
terms of their settlements.

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S_A_P
Im still trying to grapple with this one. Its not like Goodyear doesn't have
other tires. If they know these things will cause accidents(or over the years
learned this was happening) why did they not alter the design? I know it must
come down to a cost vs benefit analysis but I cant see how they would come out
ahead with a "deadly" tire.

~~~
tomkarlo
Even if they made an entirely rational calculation of the risk and the
expected costs, they likely wouldn't have anticipated an increase in highway
speed limits. Whatever failure rate you assume would likely be tied to
whatever typical highway driving speed you expected, and a 10 mph increase
might really mess that up. Also, the real world is not like the lab - tires
may wear faster in real-life use than in tests.

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kevin_thibedeau
> the tires were designed to handle a sustained temperature of 194 degrees
> Fahrenheit when traveling at highway speeds between 65-75 mph. In excess of
> 200 degrees, the tire ran the risk of tread separations.

Doesn't seem like there was much margin in the design. How was this even
allowed to be sold?

~~~
wccrawford
Because tires don't usually get that hot?

[https://www.caranddriver.com/columns/a-look-behind-the-
tire-...](https://www.caranddriver.com/columns/a-look-behind-the-tire-
hysteria)

>How hot does the tire get? Typical tires experience a temperature increase of
roughly 50 degrees after running on the highway for a half-hour. If it's a
70-degree day, this suggests a tire temperature of about 120 degrees.

So even at 120 degree weather, you'd only expect the tires to reach 170
degrees. That's still far below the 194 that they're rated for.

~~~
themacks
In 100 degree weather, fairly common in the south, the road surface
temperature would be significantly higher, upwards of 150 to 175.

~~~
ChrisLomont
I cannot find anywhere listing road temperatures nearing 175 F. Do you have a
source?

Most I find are like this [1], which would allow a max road surface temp at
100F air temp at the equator with the sun directly overhead on a perfectly
clear day to reach around 148F. (see equation 17 in the paper).

The rest of the literature I have found is similar. I doubt roads in the US
south reach 175, and likely not even 150.

[1]
[http://www.ijirae.com/volumes/Vol2/iss8/01.AUAE10083.pdf](http://www.ijirae.com/volumes/Vol2/iss8/01.AUAE10083.pdf)

~~~
merpnderp
On hot days I like to take my laser temp gun and shoot roads and other things,
and I've never seen anything over 140F.

~~~
ChrisLomont
Out of curiosity, what is the hottest background temps you think you've
checked in? Any around 100 F ambient?

~~~
pbhjpbhj
Not parent:

>Dr Howard Robinson, chief executive of the Road Surface Treatments
Association, says most roads in the UK that experience a reasonable amount of
traffic will start softening at 50C.

>[...]

>And dark road material can absorb a lot of heat. The typical summer ground
temperature is higher than air temperature. Robinson says roads "regularly"
reach a temperature of 50C and above.
([http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-23315384](http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-23315384))
//

50 deg C is 122F; but this is UK with air temps of ~30 deg C

~~~
ChrisLomont
Yeah, I read that too. 30C is 86 F. The OP above mentioned a 100 degree day,
14 degrees warmer, and the formula and paper I referenced above would put the
surface temp of the road would also only rise 14 degrees, to 136 F on a 100
degree day.

The OP claimed 150-175 is common on a 100 degree day. No research I can find
(except one single author) is anywhere near that amount.

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HankB99
"The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration had accumulated reports of
61 deaths and more than 100 serious injuries linked to Firestone 500
blowouts."

[http://www.rubbernews.com/article/19960812/ISSUE/308129970/t...](http://www.rubbernews.com/article/19960812/ISSUE/308129970/the-14-million-
firestone-500-radials-still-on-the-road-the-radial-was-prone-to-belt-
separation-and-blowouts-and-contributed-to-61-fatal-auto-accidents-according-
to-the-national-highway-traffic-safety-administration-500-tragedy-crushes-
firestone)

I might have thought that the Firestone 500 was "The Worst Tire in History."

~~~
slededit
Had this tire been put on cars it would have been much worse. The total
carnage was limited by its application in motor homes.

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ams6110
Goodyear certainly seems to have a big piece of the responsibility here. But I
don't hold the RV manufacturers blameless -- they were the ones selecting and
buying a low-speed commercial delivery vehicle tire for a passenger
application.

Also I'm inclined to believe that many owners didn't inflate them properly. A
high load range tire will have a much higher pressure than passenger car
owners are accustomed to. Most people just inflate their tires to about 30PSI
and that's generally fine for a passenger car.

Most consumer tire pumps or inflators would probably have difficulty getting
to the proper pressure which can be twice that more than a normal passenger
car tire.

~~~
mmariani
Any decent track pump can easily get to an order of magnitude higher. I
routinely pump bike tires to 125 psi. Back to the point, tires are the most
important piece of kit in regards to driving/riding handling quality, and
usually one of the most underestimated. I wish people in general paid more
attention to the state and quality of their tires.

~~~
totalZero
The problem isn't solely the level of pressure, it's also the time it takes to
reach that pressure. If you are running a little electric pump to get a truck
tire to 60 PSI, it's going to take a long time even if the pump doesn't
overheat and burn out.

~~~
mmariani
You just gave me a great idea. My car has a smat electric pump that I don’t
trust. I’m going to store in the car a compact track pump in case I have to
use the patch kit. Thanks for the insight on the lateral thinking.

~~~
pbhjpbhj
By a "compact track pump" do you mean a bicycle pump? It surely doesn't
deliver the volume needed, a car tyre must be many times the volume of a bike
tyre -- I see figures of 1.35 and 22 litres respectively.

So to shift the volume of air needed to get your car tyre to 60psi you're
going to be looking at c. 10 times the duration of pumping as getting a bike
tyre to 125psi. If it's a racing tyre and an SUV tyre the duration multiplier
would probably be much higher.

~~~
mmariani
My car runs on 2 bar, a little less than half of your example of 60 psi,
completely feasible as a plan B.

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AcerbicZero
This tire might have been rubbish, but it's not even close to being the worst
tire of this decade, let alone the worst tire in history.

~~~
mrguyorama
Care to elaborate? The article mentions it had over a ten fold increase in
incidents compared to the well-known Firestone debacle. What other tires are
dangerous?

------
SigmundA
In the US at least RV are interesting as far as safety regulations go. Its
probably a good peek into what would happen if you removed a bunch of
regulation for the normal car industry.

No crash testing, no air bags, questionable electrical wiring for a moving
vehicle. Flexible propane gas line running into moving slide systems.

I have a modern class A which I love, but its built like a 70's automobile,
some real head scratching engineering decisions, some of which I have fixed.

If you get into RVing especially the larger ones the tire issue is one you
worry about and see talked about constantly.

The article touched on it some in talking about how Goodyear defended
themselves in the suit, and some of it is valid.

RV's tend to sit for long periods of time unused, this causes all sorts of
issues including the tires. RV tire almost always age out rather than wear
out. You should be replacing them at 7 years and they will have plenty of
tread when you do. Many RV's are traveling around with 10 year old tires that
the owners wont replace because they are very expensive and the tread look
fine. There is some debate on if the sitting flat spots them that also
contributes to failure issues. They also also typically have sidewall cracking
due to long term UV exposure and sitting without flexing.

Large RV tires are very sensitive to weight and inflation pressure, much more
so than any car I have ever owned. Large vehicles seem to be generally closer
to failure limits on all components involved. A under inflated tire seems to
be a common cause of blowouts. Again due to sitting for long periods, many
will go to take a trip and not bother to check the tire pressure before
leaving. Also very few large RV's have TPMS systems, there is a large industry
of after market TPMS for RV's that pretty much every recommends you should
purchase one of. TPMS should be required by law as I believe they are on cars
now. My RV requires at least 82 psi minimum, I run 90 and make sure its
maintained.

The article mentions the G159's where only rated for 65 mph, a little low,
most RV tires including mine are only rated for 70mph. I drive my RV at 65 and
below and stay in the rightmost lane except in a very rare passing
circumstance. Driving above 65 and especially 70 mph is a menace IMO and I
have seen it plenty of times with a large class A passing everyone in the left
lane towing a car. There was a video that was going around the RV site not
long ago showing a bad blowout of someone doing that [1].

There is a whole aftermarket of parts designed to make RV's safer in a
blowout, a popular one is safe-t-plus [2], because if you do have a front
blowout like that video RV's are very difficult to control due to the weight
shift forward. It is actually recommended to not hit your brake but accelerate
slightly to stay in control and prevent the brake dive, then slowly come to a
stop. Hard to remember in that situation.

RV overloading is pretty common too. Many people don't understand the gross
weight ratings and many RV's are built with so many features and heavy
materials that there have actually been cases of them being over the weight
rating if you fill them with gas and have two people on board. My RV has 2500
lbs of carry capacity with a full fuel tank and 5000 lbs of towing. If I fill
the water tank that's 600 lbs off the carry capacity, then people and gear.
Its recommend to go on a scale and weigh after loaded up to make sure your
within your limits. I tow a 4500 lbs Jeep, again many don't pay attention to
tow rating and tow their full size pickup weighing 6000 lbs plus a 1000 lb
golf cart in the bed.

Bottom line the Goodyear was under specced but RV's are not like cars but many
people treat them the same, no training is required to drive one unlike a
large semi or bus. They really need to be regulated for crash safety and tpms.
More headroom is needed in design such as tire speed rating and chassis weight
ratings or perhaps more training required to operate them.

1\.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9LkLeljt4t0](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9LkLeljt4t0)
2\. [http://www.safe-t-plus.com/](http://www.safe-t-plus.com/)

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reificator
Depending on how many people used these tires, the "Worst Tire in History"
only claiming nine (reported) lives is actually pretty good. Auto collisions
being what they are I'm curious as to the actual numbers behind different
tires.

~~~
No1
From the article

> Those numbers are almost certainly higher in reality: in court, Goodyear
> admitted it has received at least 98 injury and/or death claims over the
> tire.

