
Is It Cheating to Have a Side Project? - ekm2
http://blogs.hbr.org/cs/2012/07/is_it_cheating_to_have_a_side.html?goback=.gde_2936203_member_133163399
======
EvanMiller
Man. This article, and the business-book morality that underpins it, is utter
tripe.

I heartily advocate that when it comes to managing their own time, employees
do whatever they can get away with without getting fired. When it comes to
negotiating compensation, companies exercise an enormous strategic advantage
over employees, which they've proven completely willing to exercise in
dishonest ways (cf. Apple/Google "non-poach" agreements). So when it comes to
time-management, in the general case, I say fuck 'em. Get your work done, but
when the door's closed, get out the clown suit and practice your torch-
juggling routine if that's what you feel like doing.

Of course if you actually like your boss, or you don't think your company is
run by dicks, and you'd feel bad about getting clown makeup on the company
furniture, then don't do it. But only YOU can decide what's right in a given
situation. No one needs employment morality lessons from business book
authors.

~~~
toolz
I completely agree with you here. If the company leverages everything they
have to keep you compensated as low as possible to keep you, then you should
in turn leverage all of your work against them and do as little as possible
for them to keep you. That's the only honest way to progress society. Reward
good business practices with good labor. You aren't doing anyone any long term
good by pretending you owe your boss anything. Provide them with the labor
they pay for and nothing more. Teach employers that payment can come in a huge
variety of ways. From your standard monetary compensation, ranging all the way
to simply respect and healthy work environments.

~~~
crisnoble
>You aren't doing anyone any long term good by pretending you owe your boss
anything.

The best bosses know this and will tell you as much, they will help you find
out what you want to do. They realize that your first job is not going to be
your last and help you focus on developing your skills. Then they hi five you
when you get a better job.

------
columbo
> If you do it on company time you can be fired, and quite frankly we believe
> you should.

Bullshit.

A company can fire you for any reason. Yes, this is a perfectly valid reason
to fire someone. You could also fire someone for showing up to work at 8:05
instead of 8:00. And you can fire someone because "You're the boss".

Despite that, what a bullshit article. "If you aren't 100% working for your
company from 8am to 5pm then we think you should be fired" is all they are
trying to say. No surfing the net, no testing out new ideas, no chatting with
coworkers, no personal calls and EXACTLY 30 minutes during lunch: you are
hired to sit, do work, punch out and fuck off.

People like this rile me up a bit... I've worked for places like that, and
people like this, never again.

~~~
kamaal
"Do as we say or.." kind of places are really the worst.

I once worked under a guy, he had very serious problems if some checked out a
new tool/language/library/framework etc at work or even tried to learn
something new to him like say Haskell.

Over a period of time I just figured out he was just plainly jealous that some
one young would over take him.

Those are the last kind of places you should work at, also they are worst team
players you can ever get.

------
aaronbrethorst
I've always had side projects and have always disclosed my side projects to my
boss. I want to be absolutely sure there are no surprises. In one case, I let
things wait almost too long and had to tell my CEO that he shouldn't be
surprised to see an article about my side project in the Seattle P-I the next
day[1]. That was a mistake I've never repeated. Fortunately, there were no
repercussions in that case. I got lucky.

Here are my thoughts:

* My side projects have—without fail—made me _better_ at my day job. For instance, when I had my last 'real' job as an iOS developer for a startup, my side project was Cocoa Controls[2] (<http://www.cocoacontrols.com>), which shaved dozens-to-hundreds of hours off our development schedule.

* My side projects don't compete with my employer's line of business (or potential future directions). The last thing I want is to get embroiled in a lawsuit down the road over IP theft.

* My side projects never use company resources. That means no working on it at work, and no using that company laptop.

* I do my best not to discuss my side projects with my coworkers. I'm happy to chat about them if they bring them up, but I don't go out of my way to discuss them.

* Way back when, when I worked at Microsoft, I had to sign a moonlighting agreement that specifically spelled out what belonged to whom and what each party's responsibilities were. If your company doesn't have one, I recommend trying to introduce one.

[1] [http://www.seattlepi.com/business/article/Seattle-startup-
Di...](http://www.seattlepi.com/business/article/Seattle-startup-Dibspace-
hopes-to-cash-in-on-1303182.php)

[2] Which is now my real job. Win.

~~~
StavrosK
Wait, if you don't work on it at work, why does your employer care?

~~~
rst
Many employment agreements claim rights to anything the employee invents which
is related to the business, whether or not on company time. And in some
states, it's common for the claim to be on _all_ inventions, whether related
to the business or not.

(California has a carve-out in state law: an employer can't claim stuff that
was not done on company time, nor with company resources, and which does not
relate to the company's business. But many states, perhaps most, have no such
carve-out. And even the California rules are subject to interpretation; what
_isn't_ related to the company's business if the company is Google? So, it's
wise to consult a lawyer regardless...)

~~~
dredmorbius
Which is a very good reason for the smart kids to stick to California for
their professional lives.

Trying to fight your way out from under a noncompete, or lawyer up on account
of a side consulting gig or independently conceived and developed idea, really
stinks. And the further you get in your career the more likely you'll
encounter such a situation.

Such cases ultimately seriously _dampen_ both enthusiasm for the employer, and
the odds of finding talent interested in working under such a regime.

Of course, the ultimate negative would be for California's exceptions to be
attacked by corporate interests.

~~~
gte910h
>Which is a very good reason for the smart kids to stick to California for
their professional lives.

Georgia recently amended our constitution to make non-competes much more
likely.

I and much of the tech scene hugely lobbied against this effort, oh well. We
didn't need to work for in state companies anyhow.

------
outside1234
I believe pretty strongly in having a side project, and working on it at work,
but only when I think the side project is something that directly (20% Google
model) or indirectly (skills) benefits the company.

Seriously - we aren't digital coolies. We are highly paid surgeons. You
wouldn't for a second fire the brain surgeon for reading about a new type of
surgery that he can't put to immediate use between operations. Hell no.

Its the same with node.js or ember.js or whatever you think the new hotness is
that you want to experiment with. You are trying to see around corners and
skate to where the puck will be. Sometimes its not obvious how node.js (or
whatever) is going to help. You need to balance this against your current
role, but 20% sounds about right to me.

This is good for the employer. If the employer doesn't get that then you
should get a new employer.

~~~
k3n
I totally agree that we need continuing education, such as your analogy of the
surgeon, but the article specifically mentions scenarios where the side-jobs
are completely unrelated to the primary job. I've witnessed this myself, had a
guy working on side-projects while on our dime. He was lucky not to get fired
on the spot, because pretty much every employment agreement strictly prohibits
working a 2nd paid job while you're using company resources whether that's
time during the working day, or the company copier/internet, etc. If you're
such a bigshot that you can negotiate the ability to work a 2nd job while on-
the-clock for your day job, then more power to you, but I'm sure that's
extremely rare.

If you want to experiment with some new tech -- and you've been allocated the
time for it by your superior(s) -- then by all means play around. But in my
experience, there's typically at most only a few in each department whose
formal role includes these types of projects, and they're always skunkworks-
like projects that rapid prototyping or POC-like, and never a full
implementation (unless you choose to go forward with it of course). This is
the essence of R&D, which is there solely to make sure the business survives
-- not you.

------
singular
I think this whole article is a despicable example of the complete fucking
subjugation of many in corporate life (the author seems to be a prominent
member of this subset.)

Renting my time doesn't mean you own me. Either I produce sufficiently good
work for you + you continue to employee me, or I don't and you do not. Beyond
that, go fuck yourself.

~~~
singular
More calmly:-

I don't advocate working on non-work stuff at work, it's not a fair or honest
thing to do, and personally, it's not something I do. But the article goes
further, it approvingly quotes:-

"When people get excited about things outside of work they end showing up to
work and going through motions just to get through a day. Everyone loses. The
employee loses and the employer loses. People are not going to give all of
themselves as they focus on their new outside interest."

Which is getting into 'I employee you, so I get to tell you what you do
everywhere'.

Fuck that.

~~~
derekp7
Not only that -- the article basically implies that even if you aren't
specifically working on your side projects on company time, that they can
impact your work, because it can be distracting. So that means no dating,
getting married, or having kids. No hobbies. No educational pursuits. You
work, go home, maybe passively watch TV (but don't talk about last night's
Seinfield at the office), sleep, and start over again.

------
kamaal
Wow! This is classic exec level BS. This article clearly displays the
perennial fear execs have, which is lower level employees getting rich. Well
monetized side projects are scary to execs. It robs them of their financial
authority which is directly related to their executive authority. No exec
wants a rich low level employee who doesn't give a damn about getting fired.
What that means for the exec guy is, his authority and position of advantage
suffering erosion and the exec being pushed into a position where his biggest
bargaining chip is lost. And not to mention the guy far lower in hierarchy may
be making a good deal of money, which disturbs the advantage due to positing
in hierarchy.

Fact of the matter is, execs and big guys have side projects all the time.
Just because they don't involve writing code it doesn't mean they don't have
projects. I know a lot big guys who attend pointless conferences which they
absolutely don't have to, sometimes on their own money just because their pet
project is to grow their network. Or they are busy working on their next real
estate project in their spare time. Or they are writing a business proposal
for their own venture. This happens just all over the place, all the time.

I agree that the office time should be clearly used for office work. Any other
time apart from that is yours and use it the way you like it.

------
quasque
This is mostly a problem of being paid per hour (or being expected to be
present a set number of hours) rather than per project or task - leading to
very inflexible terms of employment or contract.

It's also a problem of management culture clashing with employee's
expectations and desires. For example, I used to work for a place that would
routinely monitor email and chat logs to make sure people were talking about
work and not being overly social - even if the job was being done well with no
problems.

Personally I think it's important to find a balance; if a small slice of at-
work, non-break time is 'spare' and being used to better oneself rather than
just sit around blankly doing nothing - what is the problem? And if side
projects are being done _outside_ of work, well that's none of the company's
business.

~~~
dredmorbius
How about being paid according to supply and demand for your talents?

Tying that rate to hours worked, or pieces produced, is a negotiating tactic
to focus your mind on irrelevance.

What matters is 1) what value do I produce for the organization (this sets an
upper limit on what you can rationally demand in compensation, not that this
seems to limit the C-level set), and 2) what can you command elsewhere?

Being able to negotiate from a position of strength, particularly via
collective bargaining (why do you think the tech world is so deathly afraid of
unions or true professional organizations) boost that through Ricardo's Law of
Rent (<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_rent>).

------
crisnoble
I was once in an interview for a development job where I asked what the
companies stance on projects outside of work was. The head honcho said, "I
don't want to know about them, and in fact I don't want you to do them. You
should be getting all your fulfillment from work, and if you need more pay we
can work something out."

In my mind the interview died right there. He didn't get it, its not about
pay, but about scratching an itch, trying new stuff out. I assume that he
would be okay with me watching TV at night, or running with my dog, why would
my decision to blow off steam with code matter to him?

------
jeffehobbs
"We think you should have a side project, unless you shouldn't, and then you
should not, unless you should, which maybe you shouldn't." -this article

~~~
singular
I actually lol'd at this. That sums it up very nicely! You forgot to add that
you are evil if you're even thinking about it (they have IP rights on your
thoughts too)

------
ixacto
Employee and employer trust as of late has approached zero. There is noone
outside of government that is going to work their entire lives at one
corporation, that is ridiculous.

There is no telling if any of the big tech companies will be here in the same
form in 15 years, let alone 50.

What if by 2028 POTUS goes standard-oil on google, ms goes bankrupt, apple
merges with yahoo?

Stranger things have happened.

------
johndavidback
I believe that this entire mentality runs counter-intuitive to the web
dev/tech nature of HN in general. Many web developer professionals work at
firms or agencies or other web development shops that rely on client work. I'm
speaking generally here, but from my own perspective client work is never
enough to fully satisfy a curious and excited mind. Enterprise projects with
client services, project managers, client stakeholders, C-levels, QA
departments, etc, will never be satisfying in the way that rapid prototyping,
direct-to-development ideation, and general 'fooling around' can be.

This article is not only harmful to the modern workplace, but is irritating to
web developers who thrive on creativity but work in environments where it's
simply not feasible. I still have bills to pay, but am not defined by the desk
I sit behind.

------
kaa2102
Having options is not immoral - it is a moral imperative. Private sector
executives are willing to lay off employees for the sake of profitability.
Public sector employees (even Feds #Sequester) aren't safe from layoffs or
furloughs. It's not cheating to do what's in your best interest - your
Employer will certainly do what's best for them.

------
stevewilhelm
Check your employment contract. Some stipulate that any IP you develop while
an employee is owned by the company.

~~~
outside1234
in particular Google employees, that means you.

~~~
dredmorbius
Pre-empted by California state law given certain conditions.

------
singular
A useful explanation from Joel Spolsky on the whole companies-owning-your-
hobby-IP thing (it's v. common, they probably do, yes I'm talking to you) -
<http://answers.onstartups.com/a/20136>

~~~
alok-g
HN discussion: <http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2208056>

------
mattquiros
I have a question: Is it cheating if I haven't had a task at work for weeks
now and I'm using my time in the office to take Coursera and iTunes U classes
on Mathematics, CS, and iOS development instead? And when I get tired I go to
the gym for maybe two hours and come back and study again.

Not kidding, this is a real question. I have a feeling this is technically
unethical but I'm not so sure my time will be wisely spent if I just ethically
sat here and did nothing.

~~~
michaelochurch
Douchebag Executive answer: yes, it's cheating because you should be asking
your boss for more work. That's what a good corporate citizen does. He says,
"I'm done, give me more."

(In reality, this doesn't graduate you to better work. Unless your boss is
personally interested in your advancement, it just gets you assigned more of
the same grunt work.)

My personal answer: no, not cheating at all. Is your boss looking out for your
career? Are you his or her protege? If you don't have a mentor, then _you_ are
your mentor and you have the ethical right to manage your career as you see
fit. Keep learning and carry on.

------
hotdox
>The more you deliver above and beyond what your "contract" calls for, the
more slack you get.

The biggest BS in this article. Your delivering does not correlate to slack
you get.

------
alok-g
As mentioned in the article, you could be in violation of the contract you
signed with your employer with side projects. See an earlier discussion on
this aspect: <http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2208056>

In my case, I have gone full-time for my (yet to be defined) project to avoid
this issue and be focused 100% on it.

------
MilesTeg
Well, when I am working on a side product it is better for my work
productivity than when I am not.

When I am working on a side project I am in the kind of mood in which I can
program for 16 hours straight. Doing two projects keeps things fresh. When I
am not motivated enough to work on a side project I am more likely to zone out
at work and spend an inordinate amount of time lurking on HN.

~~~
cglace
I agree.

When I have a side project I will fly through my work so that I can get back
to what I really care about.

------
hippich
It is not cheating. If you are still employed - you fulfill job requirements
you agreed on in exchange for money. If you are not fulfilling these
requirements any company fill just fire you. Side projects are irrelevant.

(Unless it is specifically said in contract and you are being paid for a
chance of inventing for company something forth extra pay)

------
klinquist
When interviewing someone, I ask about their side projects. If they don't have
any, they aren't getting hired. In order to be a productive member of my team,
you have to be passionate about technology - and that means having side
projects.

------
kevinthew
All of my side projects inevitably circle back and help me with my primary
tasks (either through practice/learning something I didn't know
already/keeping me focused). I don't see why an employer would ever discourage
this.

------
carsongross
Is It Cheating to Explore Outsourcing Without Telling Your Employees?

Just askin'

------
sideproject
That's it. I've created it. This is for all of you, SideProjectors!

<http://sideprojectors.com>

~~~
benrhughes
FYI, for whatever reason, trying to sign up in FF for Android I constantly got
an invalid email address error. Worked fine through desktop Chrome though.

------
sigzero
Not if you do it on your own time.

~~~
alok-g
Since the question is whether it is "cheating" or not, the answer becomes very
subjective, and yours cannot be called wrong. The best answer however would be
to "Check your employment contract" as Steve also wrote. If you signed such a
contract (or are not even aware that you signed one), you "could" be kidding
yourself.

------
milfot
Cheating == business

------
michaelochurch
This is Category 5 douchebaggery dressed-up as an attempt to be "hip" to the
fact that ambitious people often have side projects. It's revolting and way
out of touch.

Not only is the moral high horse off-putting, but the advice is impractical.
Article says you should be spending 1000 hours per year looking for another
career. It also says that if any of those 1000 hours occur on "company time",
then (using their words) "you are stealing". This is overprivileged nonsense
at its worst. How many people can fit in 1000+ hours per year on a side
project _and_ the real demands of a typical day job without _some_ degree of
(taken if not given) overlap? Answer: not many, but it's a good assumption
that these writers have multiple maids and nannies...

Of course, it's worth it to be smart about overlap. Avoid using company
resources, and the writing of code that will go into production should not
occur during traditional company hours. If you're going to steal time from
work, use it for reading, learning, and exploration-- not product code itself.
You can lose if you do that.

------
eriksank
The monthly-salary system is not necessarily suitable for all programming
jobs. I think it is rather an exception that the monthly-salary system
correctly matches the dynamics of the situation, such as for hotel
receptionists or security guards. The default agreement in programming work
should be about results and not about hours present on the job.

