
Denmark's education minister will let high schools check students computers - drsim
http://www.dr.dk/nyheder/politik/minister-vil-lade-gymnasier-tjekke-elevers-computere
======
yason
Disregarding how easy it would be to hide stuff in the system to the extent
that school staff can't find it I find it hilarious how attractive complexity
is.

It used to be pen and paper, maybe a slide rule. You couldn't cheat except by
bringing in extra books or papers which were easy to detect.

Then they allowed electric scientific calculators which were checked prior
exams. You could theoretically store some meaningful constants in their memory
but it wouldn't have been very useful.

Then laptops... what a can of worms! Even making read-only terminals available
for students during exams would open up loads of potential holes for cheating.
But that's nothing in comparison to private laptops. Even private laptops
booting the school's own USB images would be highly untrusted but letting
students run their own software and hoping school staff to find any problems
by inspecting them is, from the policy viewpoint, just going bananas.

In fact, if I were a non-hacker student I would oppose strongly to the whole
idea because I could be certain that at least some of my peers would be using
their laptops to hack themselves an advantage over me and most others.

~~~
mosselman
I don't really agree with your last statement. It might be a cultural thing, I
have no idea where you went to school, but what do I care what grades other
students get? If you are on the verge of failing on a test, then yes, the
average of the group will determine whether there will be corrections made to
all grades which could make the difference between passing or failing (5.3/10
becomes 5.6/10), but apart from that I could not have cared less when I was in
school or university.

You are right that pen and paper was complex enough. In fact there are many
studies that show that children learn better when writing on and reading from
paper than on and from screens. In picking schools for my kids I will take the
use of paper and real books into very strong account.

~~~
adrianN
I care because I want to live in a fair society where cheaters are punished,
not rewarded.

~~~
mosselman
I am not saying that cheaters shouldn't be punished. It is just that I wasn't
interested in other people's grades back when I did things that involved
grades.

Also, if you really want that you are probably pretty bad off in most
societies. Sadly, many people get away with cheating (criminals, corrupt
politicians/companies, etc).

------
ilkkao
Doesn't feel very realistic that average teachers can actually find hidden or
encrypted files.

In Finland they use a custom live Linux image from a USB stick during the
major exams: [https://github.com/digabi/digabi-
os](https://github.com/digabi/digabi-os) That is much harder to bypass.
There's an old blog post (2013) about its security:
[http://globatic.blogspot.dk/2013/08/evaluating-security-
of-d...](http://globatic.blogspot.dk/2013/08/evaluating-security-of-digabi-
future.html)

~~~
protomyth
The update section of that blog post is very interesting for the ways to
attempt subversion. Sure beats the locked down web browser based solutions I
have seen.

------
Svip
Here are the highlights from the article:

The Danish education minister (Merete Riisager) is proposing allowing schools
to check their students' private computers, as well as their social media
activity (and other internet activity), to avoid cheating occurring during
tests/exams.

The ministry also clarifies that the schools should not be allow to force
access to this information, but can demand access to a student's computer as a
prerequisite for their access to the test/exam.

Should a student refuse, the school should be able to confiscate their
equipment for up to 24 hours or completely expelling the student from the
school. (Note: The article isn't clear whether this means from just the exam
or indefinitely.)

It's important to note this is still a proposal. That is, it is in the _very_
early stages of becoming bill or even law. Right now it is in the hearing
process.

~~~
slavik81
I don't understand the context. Does the principal come to my house, boot up
my desktop and start looking through what I've been doing the past year? Or is
this only applicable to computers brought into exams? If personal computers
are used in exams, what accomodations are made for students who do not own
computers?

~~~
Svip
As far as I know, computers are not required for tests/exams. But are allowed
as 'aid'. Therefore, they won't care about one's desktop at home, but only
about the laptop one will be bringing into the test/exam room.

So with this proposal, if one refuses to let the school check one's equipment,
one can still attend the test/exam, but without one's equipment. Or one can be
expelled.

------
riffraff
Why do you even need computers during high school Tests? I feel very out of
touch.

~~~
jopsen
If you're doing any serious math you need a CAS.

When I did the HTX (technical/science oriented highschool) in Denmark they
even experimented with internet access for essays, etc.

IMO, we should focus on sniffing out cheating by good old fashion looking
people over the shoulder. And focus our attention on teaching kids not to
cheat.

~~~
jacobolus
> If you're doing any serious math you need a CAS.

You must be joking. There is no math course I’ve ever heard of from 1st grade
through graduate school which should “need a CAS” (or even an electronic
calculator of any kind) on exams to demonstrate understanding of the content
of the course or fluency with its proofs or problem solving tools.

In most cases designing exams around CAS use (or calculator use in general)
makes them far worse at testing student understanding or problem solving
skill.

The reason calculators are used in mathematics exams is because calculator
vendors (especially Texas Instruments) were very effective at making back-room
deals with textbook publishers and standardized test sponsors (and sometimes
public officials), and ran decades of great subversive marketing aimed at
anxious parents. Not because of any particular pedagogical value of the
calculators.

Tools like Mathematica or Maple can be very helpful for mathematical research
or mathematical modeling in other technical fields, and are worth learning for
undergraduates, but should by no means be used on exams.

~~~
soegaard
High School students in Denmark are taught How to use a CAS (Nspire,
GeoGebra’s algebra window, Maple or similar). To test that they know a Cas,
some exercises contain equations, deriviates or integrals that only a cas can
solve (or at least are harder than a high school student is expected to handle
by hand).

~~~
jacobolus
Learning about how to use such tools seems fine, but testing that in exams
(and then worrying about whether the students are cheating, etc. etc.) seems
completely misguided computer fetishization to me. YMMV.

If you want to get students to demonstrate their use of a CAS, give some real-
world modeling problems, and then give them a few days to make a mathematical
model (using the CAS, or whatever other tools they prefer) and write up a mini
paper about it.

------
ulrikmoe
Hold your horses... Firstly, the minister tried to remove internet access from
high school exams (good idea!), but parliament opposed this. Secondarily, the
law is designed for cases where you know that someone cheated. A teacher might
very well see someone exchange files on dropbox, but it is often impossible to
prove. The law would allow the teacher to ask the student to show his/her
"dropbox folder". The student can reject this, but naturally this will have
consequences.

~~~
jopsen
Also don't bring a personal laptop as an exam aid, if you don't want it
inspected.

IMO, a clean format, or just removing sensitive files to a backup drive seems
reasonable.

------
soegaard
Some context: All danish high school students have their own laptop. Exams are
supposed be a test of what the students have learned during the course (for
the written exams this means during the last two or three years). To make
exams reflect the normal work process of s student most exams are open book -
books, notes, old exercises and papers are allowed.

Some exams are divided in two (English, math etc): one short part with nothing
but paper and pencil and one longer part with everything allowed (except
communication with others).

In recent years the publishing houses have gone digital in a big way. Some
school no longer provide books for the student - the school buys subscriptions
for online books. Until this year internet access during exams were forbidden
(with the exception of access to dictionaries). This year a new law adjusted
the rules. A wide coaliation of parties including the all three parties of the
government decided that internet access should be allowed to.

This summer a few students were caught cheating. During the written exam they
uploaded the paper/exercises to a firm that offered to write the paper for
them - for a fee of course. As the rules are now only the student is breaking
the law.

The minister felt a need to react and sent out a statement that internet
access were to be banned. However she forgot to ask the coalition behind the
high school reform. Even the two other parties in the government disagreed. In
short: internet access will probably not be banned.

The latest idea from the minister is to allow high schools to search the
computer of a student, if the school has a suspicion of cheating. (The irony
is that the minister is from the most liberal party in danish politics).

Cheating is of course a serious matter, but the current proposal seems to be
somewhat overreaching. It will hopefully not get the enough votes.

Question: How would you prevent cheating in an exam where internet access is
allowed?

~~~
geon
If it is a school issued laptop, I see no problem. It should be clear that the
laptop is school property and may be searched.

If a student wants privacy, they simply use a personal device.

~~~
soegaard
In Denmark most high schools assume students bring their own laptop.

------
maldeh
Handy google translate link:

[https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=da&tl=en&u=h...](https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=da&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.dr.dk%2Fnyheder%2Fpolitik%2Fminister-
vil-lade-gymnasier-tjekke-elevers-computere)

------
aaxa
This is a proposal that hopefully won't make it through. This is so over the
line in terms of privacy. I really hope that the rest of the politicians can
understand how this is a major issue. No teacher or anyone else for that
matter, should get access to students private files and social media accounts.

------
z3t4
They would need something to scramble radio signals. Or the students could
just use spy devices that are very small and can be hidden in clothes. In
Sweden there's a test that you can take and if you nail it you can get into
any school you want ...

~~~
jopsen
or maybe just look people over the shoulder :)

IMO, requiring the use of a school supplied computer isn't the worst either.
And then you could just set it up with a key logger and a screen recorder.

------
whazor
I believe that this is great for children in order to become techies. At my
high school, I learned a lot by having to configure a SSH server at port 80,
in order to avoid port and site blocking. Luckily, they never blocked the link
to putty.

~~~
KozmoNau7
I learned a lot from bypassing the deep freeze software they used on school
PCs, from hiding games on network drives and bypassing the proxy servers.

It was a hell of a lot more fun than the actual "computing classes", which
were basically just learning to use MS Word.

------
QAPereo
Encrypt everything.

~~~
tjoff
Obviously you'd be required to decrypt anything they tell you to. You are
required to cooperate until they feel confident that you aren't cheating.

I find it kind of weird that they use their own computers on a test.

~~~
QAPereo
Forget your passphrase, it’s a school, they can’t exactly hold you in
contempt.

~~~
tjoff
Google translate: "Otherwise, the school has the right to punish by, for
example, detaining the student's private property for up to a day or
completely expelling the student from school."

Also: "The draft states, among other things, that the examiner must give the
school access to investigate the content of resources, search history and log
files as well as the use of materials, social media accounts, and further on
the Internet. "

~~~
TheSpiceIsLife
> right to punish by, for example, detaining the student's private property
> for up to a day

No it fucking doesn't. Not on any planet I'd be willing to live on.

Ridicule and shame are appropriate here.

~~~
King-Aaron
Teachers confiscating the [prohibited thing] has been around since...
practically forever. I don't know what the fuss is about?

~~~
TheSpiceIsLife
That's a good point. I guess I just feel my computer / phone is an intimate
part of my mind.

Maybe I'm over reacting. Probably.

------
gear54rus
How are we supposed to red that? English source?

~~~
KozmoNau7
Learn Danish, I guess. But we'll have to check your laptop first, in case
you're cheating by using Google Translate or something.

