
Why UK Brexit Talk Baffles Germany - Tomte
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-37799805
======
DasIch
Germany has the concept of a non-refusal in order to not impose and just show
politeness as well. There is no massive cultural difference here.

Sometimes though you just say no, this is one of these times. As a German I'm
not baffled at all by the U.K. Brexit talk. Politicians in the U.K. have
simply created a mess they don't quite know how to get out of, this is how
they placate the electorate while they're trying to figure it out.

It seems to me what's really baffling to some people is how Germany thinks of
the EU. It seems to me that not many people realize just how highly the EU is
valued in Germany across the political spectrum. People seem to severely
underestimate what sacrifices Germany is willing to make in the context of
Brexit to benefit the EU.

Among politicians in Germany I think the consensus is that having a hard
Brexit, a crash of Britain and the effects on other countries in the EU
including Germany would be unfortunate. Further damage to the EU however would
be considered catastrophic. At least some people in Berlin have essentially
already written off the U.K. in their minds.

If article 50 is invoked in march and the clock starts ticking, it will be
fascinating to see the horror of the people coming to realize this.

~~~
_9MOTHER9HORSE
> It seems to me that not many people realize just how highly the EU is valued
> in Germany across the political spectrum. People seem to severely
> underestimate what sacrifices Germany is willing to make in the context of
> Brexit to benefit the EU.

The perception of the EU as a German project — or experiment, if you will —
was one of the factors leading people to vote for Brexit.

~~~
emp_zealoth
I believe a lot of countries will show no mercy to UK, not just germany. No
one wants to see a lopsided deal struck at the expense of their own.

~~~
gravypod
Isn't that quite scary for you? I don't think I'd every want to be part of a
multinational organization that has unelected rulers, is attempting to build a
military, and will give anyone leaving it a hard time.

That's an absurd state to be in and it's already a parody of itself.

~~~
emp_zealoth
The EU is not giving UK hard time. It is simply no longer willing to go above
and beyond to appease them nor should it do so. If UK does not want to take
part in responsibilities but would like to keep the benefits EU is not able to
allow that. It is a simple fact that there are no satisfactory ways for UK to
leave EU and it is not EU fault.

Most of EU rulers are democratically elected, at least no less than in most
country-level governments.

I support federalisation of EU. Most of the issues with EU stem from not
enough integration and overly nationalistic nonsense countries do to the
detriment of everybody. Euro needs a reform that will introduce transfers to
less wealthy states, UK blocking much needed finance reform to keep its
criminal City afloat, different countries throwing everyone under the bus so
they can protect their own reelection.

Any talk of "sovereignity" is goddamn laughable in this day and age, between
the banks and trade agreemens and megacorps

Together the EU is the biggest economy, outside of it you are just a shitty
country that is hungover on glory long past

~~~
gravypod
>Most of EU rulers are democratically elected, at least no less than in most
country-level governments.

"Most", need I say more?

> Most of the issues with EU stem from not enough integration and overly
> nationalistic nonsense countries do to the detriment of everybody

"Ok so what we're doing isn't working out but if you give us more money and
power I swear it'll work guys! Just trust me and give up your currency,
boarders, militaries, and legislative branches and don't worry this isn't
sketchy at all"

> Euro needs a reform that will introduce transfers to less wealthy states

Ah so the EU is now a charity/Robin Hood organization. Not a government? Most
government's aren't so selfless. I'd go so far as to say that no government
can be as selfless.

> UK blocking much needed finance reform to keep its criminal City afloat

Criminal City?

> different countries throwing everyone under the bus so they can protect
> their own reelection.

That's what happens with all governments. It's not about the public, it's
about maintaining power.

> Any talk of "sovereignity" is goddamn laughable in this day and age, between
> the banks and trade agreemens and megacorps

Would you have found it better for black people living in America during
segregation to say "Any talk of "equality" is goddamn laughable in this day
and age, between the government and the kkk and the racist people" or do you
think it was right for them to fight to reverse the encroachment of their
basic human rights?

I see Brexit as a means of fighting back against a relentless ruling class
that has grown out of an apathy of the working class.

> Together the EU is the biggest economy, outside of it you are just a shitty
> country that is hungover on glory long past

I can't see a single economist predicting a good future for the EU. It all
looks doom and gloom from here on out. I'd say that the countries that are the
worst off would benifit the most from less trade regulations. Look at what
China and India have become. "Super power by 2020" would be a great thing to
hear about the eastern block but that will never be the case under EU's thumbs

~~~
emp_zealoth
>I see Brexit as a means of fighting back against a relentless ruling class
that has grown out of an apathy of the working class.

What you did is you submitted yourself to whackjobs like May or Johnson who
apparently think that advisory referendum made them supreme rulers that can
just sidestep the parliament

Wonder why UK is talking about leaving EHRC if you want your human rights
protected

Criminal City as in main export goods of UK: LIBOR fixing, tax evasion, money
laundering, etc. After 2008 there were genuine attempts at reform, all
succesfully cockblocked and watered down by UK

Everywhere there is doom and gloom, not just EU - the current financial system
will collapse under the unbearable debt that is created ever quicker.

And the rise of China and India is exactly why small countries are irrelevant.
Sure, you get to feel all important for a while, but since you don't really
have much to offer to a giant they can just steamroll over you.

Thats what I don't get. You bitch and moan about how EU is evil and trying to
destroy UK, for taking EU perks away and then you turn around and argue how
evil and bad the EU is because it has nothing to offer...

~~~
gravypod
> What you did is you submitted yourself to whackjobs like May or Johnson who
> apparently think that advisory referendum made them supreme rulers that can
> just sidestep the parliament

I'm not British so I've done nothing but what I see as an outsider is a
parliament that feels it can entirely sidestep the wills of the public.

> Wonder why UK is talking about leaving EHRC if you want your human rights
> protected

We'll I'd assume it's to avoid foreign control over their domestic affairs. I
don't think any country should be subject to the moral judgement of other
nations and I would like to point out that the UK offers some of the best
humanitarian protection to it's people. I'd call this point a bit of a non
sequitur.

For instance, let's say I'm rich and I'm investing in a set of manufacturing
companies. If I want to pull all of my money out of foreign markets and I
state by pulling money from my off-shore cookie factories does this mean I
hate cookies as a product? I don't necessarily feel that is the case
especially if I still have investments in, or have future plans to invest in,
domestic cookie production.

> Criminal City as in main export goods of UK: LIBOR fixing, tax evasion,
> money laundering, etc. After 2008 there were genuine attempts at reform, all
> succesfully cockblocked and watered down by UK

I've never head of this but I'd chalk this up as a job for Interpol if it's a
set of people engaging in money laundering and tax evasion. This is again a
non sequitur as every country has this. Switzerland, France, and other EU
countries are if anything more guilty of this then the UK.

(Yes I know Switzerland isn't technically an EU country but it was a founding
member of the EFTA so I'm counting it as they are still subject to trade
sanctions that have never been levied from my understanding)

> And the rise of China and India is exactly why small countries are
> irrelevant. Sure, you get to feel all important for a while, but since you
> don't really have much to offer to a giant they can just steamroll over you.

You have a lot to offer. You're main point of attraction is different cultural
backgrounds and different legal precedents. Many eastern block countries have
the perfect storm of intelligent people, good universities, and a strong set
of natural resource that they could turn from shabby to economic powerhouses
overnight if they where allowed to engage in some practices that haven't been
monopolized by the EU. One such example was the British fishing industry. [0]

> Thats what I don't get. You bitch and moan about how EU is evil and trying
> to destroy UK, for taking EU perks away and then you turn around and argue
> how evil and bad the EU is because it has nothing to offer...

I don't feel that I'm bitching and moaning. I feel that I'm presenting my
opinions on the topic. I'm going to have to pick this apart bit by bit because
there's a lot crammed into this one section.

> You bitch and moan about how EU is evil

I don't think it's evil. I've never said that and I don't think I ever will
say that. It's the same way I've never said the Mafia was evil. I don't agree
with a lot of the things that both the Mafia and the EU engage in but can see
exactly why they have done these actions and their arguments for why these
things are acceptable.

One such example is intimidation of people leaving the group -- the topic that
started this discussion You made it a point to say:

> taking EU perks away and then you turn around and argue how evil and bad the
> EU is because it has nothing to offer

I find it very odd, and would never want to participate in a group, that would
feel the need to intimidate people leaving it. For instance here in the States
if one of these United States didn't want to be part of the union anymore I'd
feel perfectly fine with putting it up to a vote for the people in that state.
That's perfectly fine for me. I'd also be against any state attempting to "get
back at them" or "teach them a lesson for going against the group". That's
just bullying and I wouldn't expect it from anyone of polite company; that is
behavior of children at play in an elementary school.

The Mafia also made attempts to intimidate people who left their ranks. Now I
understand it from a Mafia perspective as a Mafia is meant to be run as a
corporation. It's not for the benefit of the public but for the benefit of
Mafia's stake holders. For them, intimidation is a form of self-preservation
in an attempt of it's members to do the best for themselves, not to go against
the will of the public.

What shocks me the most is that people are okay with hostile intimidation from
the EU [1] but not from the Mafia when I feel it is more justified for a Mafia
to do this then a government.

A government is meant to services as a way for regulating the people. If the
people aren't being regulated fairly then the government should either change
to shape themselves in the image of the public's morals or be removed from
their place as the model of governance for the public. Now I've never seen
this happen without violent kicking and screaming, as we are seeing here with
the EU.

I don't support what the EU because it is a vengeful organization that want's
it's fingers in all of the pies around the world. Not for the benefit of
humanity, but instead for the benefit of a well segregated ruling class that
looks down at many of you as mere peons.

[0] -
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_Fisheries_Policy](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_Fisheries_Policy)
[1] -
[https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/oct/07/europe...](https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/oct/07/europe-
hard-brexit-hurt-british-trade-deal)

------
IsaacL
I'm guessing the ambassadors on both sides are hyper-aware of cultural nuances
like this. A non-story.

~~~
edblarney
No. Just the opposite.

Having lived in Europe ... I was absolutely shocked at the dissonance between
their elite and their plebes. It's laughably crazy.

It's so much, it's almost unbelievable.

Euros come from a historical situation wherein they hyper-powerful nobility
ruled all.

They overthrew that - but the condescension still very much exists. Now - when
you go to Oxobridge or a 'Grande Ecole' you're party of the elite, they go off
and give each other the plumb jobs, protect each others careers and act like
rulers.

Because even on the other side of the fence - the socialists - are led by
intellectuals, not so much by 'the people' (i.e. labour) - both sides of the
aisle are utterly out of touch.

Brexit itself should be a shock to no one who has the pulse of Europe.

It's only shocking to the disconnected chattering classes.

They consider anything anti-EU to be 'fringe' and 'far right' \- when in fact
about 1/2 of Europeans would dump the EU if given a chance. Even in Germany
48% don't like the EU - not to say they would dump it but they don't like it.

~~~
DasIch
Socialism and Communism has always been led by intellectuals. Marx was hardly
a member of the proletariat for example.

Additionally this is overall hardly a European phenomenon. People tend to
associate mostly with people similar to themselves, especially when it comes
to education which correlates to income and jobs.

The education system reinforces this strongly in most countries. In the US
this begins as early as starting school based on which school (district) the
parents can afford. In Germany you have Students being separated by education
level after primary school (4th grade). If you go to university you might
almost never interact with people with a different education level, apart from
family or the people you buy stuff from.

I'd also wonder just how many of those 48% that don't like the EU, would miss
what the EU offers. I'd wager most not just don't know what it offers but
don't even really know what exactly is bad about it.

~~~
_9MOTHER9HORSE
> I'd wager most not just don't know what it offers but don't even really know
> what exactly is bad about it.

This is a good reason why the EU should fail, and why people voted for Brexit,
which will hopefully go some way to making that happen.

To the average citizen, the EU is a gargantuan bureaucracy, burning through
enormous sums of money, whose main concern seems to be churning out reams of
incomprehensible regulations. It also has some courts that overrule our
national governments from time to time.

I like the _concept_ of a more integrated Europe, but the EU is just the first
attempt at it.

~~~
DasIch
To the average citizen the majority of regulation is incomprehensible because
it deals with things they never have to deal with. I care that the food I buy
is safe not precisely how regulation and standardization makes it so or that I
personally understand it. The entire point of representative democracy is that
I don't have to.

The vast amount of "regulation" is simply standardization to simplify trade in
the single market. The industries affected themselves tend to want it even
while people make fun of it in the media.

The amount of money invested in the EU is really not all that enormous,
besides it's not like it disappears in a black hole. It seems like any
significant infrastructure project in the EU gets at least some EU funding.
Especially Eastern Europe has benefitted greatly from that and we all benefit
as the East catches up with the rest of Europe.

In any case you can't just scrap the EU and start fresh and instantly come up
with the perfect solution. This is not how politics and policy works or has
ever worked. Any non-trivial system is built iteratively through incremental
improvement, especially large systems. A more integrated Europe is achieved by
improving the EU not by replacing it with some fantasy that will never come to
fruition.

------
MatthewWilkes
I don't think this is the case at all. The UK has a rather rosy view of its
history and current worth. To many it was inconceivable that the EU wouldn't
do anything to keep us in the club, despite that necessarily weakening its
position when dealing with other countries. Others thought the UK was being
held back by the EU and that we are so great people would be bending over
backwards to deal with us.

Offering a biscuit from a tray and keeping a poker face during negotiations
are two very different things, nobody mixed them up.

