
Uruguay's president José Mujica: no palace, no motorcade, no frills - wrongc0ntinent
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/dec/13/uruguay-president-jose-mujica
======
ilamont
Pope Francis has also rejected some of the traditional trappings of the Papacy
(1):

 _For his unveiling as pope Wednesday to the throng in St. Peter 's Square, he
shunned a special fur-trimmed red half-cloak and golden cross in favor of
plain white vestments and his usual iron cross. To go pray at a church in
central Rome on Thursday, he hopped into a regular Vatican sedan, not the
papal limousine. He prefers a simple miter to more elaborate, richly decorated
headgear._

He reportedly has more simple living arrangements than his predecessor.(2)

Not as frugal or simple as Mujica, but a big shift from his predecessor,
Benedict, who "loved the pomp and circumstance." (1)

1\. [http://articles.latimes.com/2013/mar/15/world/la-fg-pope-
tra...](http://articles.latimes.com/2013/mar/15/world/la-fg-pope-
trappings-20130316)

2\. [http://www.thecatholictelegraph.com/pope-of-the-people-
pope-...](http://www.thecatholictelegraph.com/pope-of-the-people-pope-francis-
to-live-in-vatican-guesthouse-not-papal-apartments/13355)

~~~
iterationx
Minute 7:42
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cn9t0m6eG4Q](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cn9t0m6eG4Q)

~~~
alan_cx
Always wondered; if there is a god, is stuff like this a demonstration of his
contempt for humanity or proof that he does indeed have a sense of humor?

Anyway, thanks for posting, it was hilarious.

------
geekymartian
Uruguayan here.

About the populist act: the presidential palace itself was not used as a
homeless shelter, just the barbecue (has a roof) (that is kind of "luxurious"
for the poor standards of living down here)

If you're planning to move, please note that we have a state that charges you
23% of taxes on ALL products and services, plus a 20% to 35% of taxes over
your earnings. And what you get for free if you're middle class? nothing, you
just pay for lower class benefits. Also real state is crazy, properties on the
nicest neighborhoods (nice for the standards here obviously) cost more than an
apartment in Manhattan.

Everything has a ton of taxes because upper class must support lower class.
The problem with that wonderful idea is that lower class gets now a lot of
benefits for free, and they don't want to work more to get out of lower class
and start paying to help other lower class citizens obviously.

Since Mujica is the president more and more stuff is getting taxes to help his
social help strategies, making worker class people flee the country.

I won't be worried about working and paying taxes if some of that is reflected
around in the country, but all the money goes to pay state employees or health
care to unemployed people (health care system which is about to collapse) or
the state retirement system (since there's lower and lower workforce this one
will collapse in a few years too). If you want to buy anything imported, you
got a huge tax over that too. For example cars have 100% of taxes, if you buy
a car for 10k in other places here it costs 20.

Public spaces are dirty as hell, and the level of security is very low (you
can get mugged because somebody wants your sneakers).

Mujica may have good ideas, but the execution is very poor and the outcome is
terrible. He is the kind of guy who fixes the world chatting on a bar, not a
president.

my 2 cents

~~~
aortega
I was hoping to move there to escape exactly the same problems here in
Argentina!

------
xacaxulu
And marijuana is legal. Uruguay is an adult in a room full of children.

~~~
BrokenPipe
Come on, the rest of the world is not "children" they are adults which
intentionally lie and deceive the larger population into prohibition and other
things that fuel criminality and state oppression.

------
eudox
I'm so god damn tired. First Gawker, then HuffPo, and now the Guardian.

"The President is so austere!". With his own money. This is who he is:
[http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=es&tl=en&u=ht...](http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=es&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.elobservador.com.uy%2Fnoticia%2F254697%2Faca-
nadie-se-va-a-hacer-rico%2F)

"Weed!" That only the State can grow and sell (Smoking it was always legal,
and buying/selling has always been and will continue to be illegal).

If you think Uruguay is a "liberal dreamboat", as one Gawker article said,
then please, move in. We can even exchange citizenships. If misery is your
thing, then by all means, do whatever country you live in a favor, and move to
Uruguay. It's not like this continent can get any worse.

~~~
glesica
So what is _actually_ wrong with it?

Nothing you mentioned sounds bad at all (and the translation of that article
seemed pretty poor, so hard to draw conclusions). I would LOVE to live in a
more "socialist" country. I'd much rather be poorer in a place where my basic
needs are met and I don't have to fear starvation or freezing to death if I
catch an unlucky break. Instead of a rising tide lifting all boats, I'd rather
lower all the boats but make sure that none of them sink.

~~~
yodsanklai
I live in a more socialist country where health care and education are free,
and where we have have a good balance between work and personal time and I
hope it'll stay the same despite the international pressure. I don't know why
"socialism" is such a bad word in the US. Probably propaganda from the rich to
keep their privileges.

I had the chance to live in the US for a couple of years (it was a child dream
of mine to do so) and now I have much more mixed feelings about its ideology.
Overall, I think I have a better life in Europe.

~~~
smtddr
>> _Probably propaganda from the rich to keep their privileges._

Not probably. It's exactly that.

~~~
vasilipupkin
Not at all - a "socialist" system involves doubling taxes On the middle class
- that's really tough to sell to....the middle class, shockingly

~~~
alan_cx
1) Are US taxes half EU taxes then?

2) "Middle class", do you mean working classes?

3) Why do so many people think its a choice between the two, socialism and
capitalism? What people want is a sensible compromise where both systems work
to service all of society's needs, instead of a single system which can only
benefit one part of society. No one serious thinks pure, exclusive socialism
is the answer to anything? Its not. Neither is pure exclusive capitalism.
Simply, capitalism raises the money to pay for socialism to provide a useful
work force and services for capitalism. We need a balance.

~~~
ezequiel-garzon
Absolutely! Although she's been politically forced, Merkel is setting up
minimum eages in Germany, while Raul Castro has issued some (however mildly)
free-enterprise initiatives, and something like that is coming up in China.
Leave dogma to the ivory towers.

------
S4M
It's very nice to read about a political leader who renounces to the
ostentation people in power usually have. However I am a bit concerned for the
man's security. Since he can't be corrupted, assassination would be an option
for a powerful group that sees him as an obstacle. For example, it's very
plausible that a mafia would see its revenues drop from the sales of cannabis,
and so would have strong interests to have cannabis illegal - I don't know the
revenue the mafia generates from cannabis, I'm just taking this as an example,
and for that reason would try to assassinate Mujica hoping his successor would
be more malleable. However as a former guerrillero Mujica must know well what
he is doing about his security.

Having said that I do hope his example of leading a simple life even at the
highest level will be replicated.

~~~
rodgerd
> However I am a bit concerned for the man's security. Since he can't be
> corrupted, assassination would be an option for a powerful group that sees
> him as an obstacle.

The biggest risk to South American leaders has tended to be agents of the US
government. No security detail is going to achieve much against another
illegally-financed Contra campaign, a Grenada invasion, or a replay of Chile.

~~~
markvdb
Hm, indeed...
[http://www.yachana.org/teaching/resources/interventions.html](http://www.yachana.org/teaching/resources/interventions.html)

------
xweb
Gee, it sounds awful. On recent tax reform: "Especially surprising was the
lack of opposition from the upper strata of Uruguayan society, who would
almost assuredly pay more taxes as a result of the reforms.... There are few
associations or organizations that unite the country’s elite even today, and
Uruguay’s political parties tend to develop broad “catch-all” coalitions that
refrain from aligning to closely with the wealthy and alienating the majority
of voters. Thus, the economic elite tend to have very weak influence on
political decision making, including tax reforms."
[http://www.wilsoncenter.org/publication/Uruguay_Taxation_201...](http://www.wilsoncenter.org/publication/Uruguay_Taxation_2013)

~~~
patrickg_zill
I think any elite above a certain dollar amount or level of power, would just
go elsewhere. Isn't Uruguay right beside Argentina, and Paraguay, for
instance? And you can get a residency visa for Uruguay if you can show $500 a
month income (I am told).

Actually, Uruguay seems like a cool place to hang out... will add to bucket
list.

~~~
scottlilly
I lived in Uruguay for almost a year, before moving on to Paraguay.

When I left Uruguay 2.5 years ago, applying for residency was changing a bit.
Apparently, nowadays, you need to show you have "enough income to support
yourself". The people I know say that's usually around $1500/month. Also,
expect it to take at least 18 months to finally complete your residency. It
took over 2 years for some people I knew. However, you can still live there
while your application is in process (no visa runs needed).

If you've been reading anything that says it's "cheap" to live in Uruguay,
it's probably several years out of date. Inflation seemed to be around 15% a
year. Personally, I was spending about $2000-2500/month to live there by
myself, and I wasn't living extravagantly (other than living in a decent
neighborhood).

Uruguay doesn't manufacture much of anything, and imported goods have a 60%
duty, along with the standard 21% IVA (Value Added Tax). So, electronics are
about twice the price of what you'd pay in the US.

It's also not a very entrepreneurial place. There is some software development
there, which can have some tax advantages. But prepare yourself for a very
bureaucratic place, where things don't move quickly, and taxes/fees are high.

Uruguay may be a place you'd end up loving, but if you base your views about
it on what you've read from International Living's website, you're going to be
in for a big shock.

~~~
GFischer
Uruguay is probably among the most expensive places to live in currently (I'm
Uruguayan, with family in Europe and Canada, so I can compare).

Cars are the most expensive in the world (at least 100% over US list price,
often 200%, so a Honda Civic is a rich man's car and I'm not joking).

Salaries are South American standard, U$ 2000 / month is a HUGE salary, yet it
doesn't get you that far !

Electronics are also expensive.

Housing is really expensive, rent is higher than anywhere in the U.S.
excepting New York or San Francisco, unless you go to REALLY bad
neighbourhoods.

And as scott says, it's really bureaucratic.

The only really big pro is that healthcare is good - basic stuff for free and
really good coverage for what an American would consider incredibly cheap
prices (U$ 70/month gets you coverage that includes house visits and emergency
services which I've heard are impossible at any cost in the US, and U$
100/month gets you into the very best hospital in the country.

The country is nice, we have nice beaches, I believe the people are friendly,
etc. but that's true in several places :)

------
speeder
Uruguay people fume when they read all those Mujica praising articles.

I saw lots of Uruguyans upset on Reddit, and I have some Uruguyan roommates
that explained to me why they hate Mujica.

A couple recurring points:

1\. Education worsened. 2\. Crime skyrocketed, one of my roommates was a cop
in Uruguay and said when he was a cop there was about 350 arrests per year,
now there is that number in one month and only in the capital, and for more
violent crimes, like murder, where the most serious crime he usually arrested
someone was stealing without using force. 3\. Although the president is
populist and socialist, somehow people now are starving, my roommates are here
in Brazil to earn money to ship to their families, and they said this was not
necessary before Mujica, one claims that the government took 150000 USD that
his mother left in a savings account. 4\. Mujica openly bribed voters. Several
expat Uruguyans repeated the story that Mujica paid airfare to anyone willing
to go back to Uruguay during elections and vote for him. 5\. Mujica is fake
poor. Although he gives away his salary, the population believes he gets a cut
from Brazilian and Argentinean gold laundered there. 6\. Marijuana was made
legal only to increase government revenue, not in form.of taxes, but by having
a law mandated monopoly. There are lots of other complaints, these are the
common ones.

~~~
mschuster91
_Marijuana was made legal only to increase government revenue, not in form.of
taxes, but by having a law mandated monopoly_

So what? It's better for the money to end up in state hands than in the hands
of a multi-national mafiya network. Hey, I bet the US budget crisis could be
solved by properly taxing drugs and shutting down law enforcement/DoC
institutions not needed for a "War On Drugs" any more...

------
stfu
I thought the pandering to the underbelly ideology would only be celebrated
among the reddit crowd. Sad to see that hn has been increasingly infected with
these ideas as well.

Sure, I am all for supporting the homeless and needy, but come on, re-
purposing the presidential residence as a homeless shelter? That is the
epitome of a populist gesture!

If he is the president, he should act like a president, dress like a president
and live like a president. I, at least, would want my country be represented
among equals.

Inviting over other heads of states to your two bedroom apartment in the
suburbs might be cute if you are pandering to certain segments of the voting
population. But unless he wants to become the Mother Teresa of international
politics this is just a joke.

~~~
Tomis02
I don't understand your indignation. Just because this guy is in a minority
compared to most presidents does not mean he is wrong.

"Infected with these ideas", really? Is it not you who has a fossilized
thinking in regard to what other people should do? "he should act like a
president, dress like a president and live like a president". Why, because you
say so? I believe that if he is the president then he should act respectfully
to his citizens, of which a lot still live in poverty. Dressing up in the most
expensive clothes, living in luxury houses and eating only the finest food is
a slap in the face of every person in that country who was not lucky enough to
be born in a position that would grant them a good life.

------
skrebbel
This is really nice to read, but it's not that special. For example, the Dutch
prime minister earns €144.000 euros a year. It's a high salary, but nothing at
all that affords a palace. A good senior programmer earns the same in the
valley, and the taxes here are higher.

I find this whole idea that presidents should be posh and it's super-special
if they're not, well, a bit odd and basically thr wrong approach.

We should be amazed, instead, when presidents build ridiculous palaces for
themselves, like the White House or Putin's Palace [0]. I don't understand why
people can look at the White House with any sense of awe. To me (and I'm about
as politically centred as they get), it's a giant show off of the haves
towards the have-nots. Nya-nya, look at my fancy big white palace with lots of
armed guards and hundreds of expensive paintings.

[0]
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Putin's_Palace](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Putin's_Palace)

~~~
mseebach
Generally, heads of states and governments aren't meant to go buy their
official residences, they have the use of one provided by the state. The Dutch
prime ministers official residence is Catshuis.
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catshuis](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catshuis)

Also, you're conflating head of state and head of government. Mujica and Putin
are heads of state, Rutte is head of government. The Dutch head of state is
the king, and he has a couple of palaces at his disposal.

------
erict19
I also enjoyed the profile of him in the nytimes last year: After Years in
Solitary, an Austere Life as Uruguay’s President -
[http://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/05/world/americas/after-
years...](http://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/05/world/americas/after-years-in-
solitary-an-austere-life-as-uruguays-president.html?pagewanted=all&_r=1&)

------
xweb
Immediately searched for "moving to Uruguay" after reading this. The thought
of a sane politician is so refreshing.

~~~
hcarvalhoalves
Not so fast. South america is a weird place (disclaimer: I live in Brazil).

The overall vision is that the coming of democracy, after a history filled
colonization, monarchies and military dictatorships in most countries, has
been a net win; but at the same time, the presidential figure gets a
disproportionate amount of worshiping in all of those, which is a sign that
the democracy has _not_ fully matured.

As positive as the bills passed by Mujica may be, the notion that the
president has to be some sort of Robin Hood, Batman of the poor, is
problematic, as it inflates the State, turns the legislative power useless,
and has a tendency to pass _popular_ policies, as opposed to good policies.

EDIT: Brazil is falling prey to that ideology, as many other countries around
here, where the approval of the president is at an all time high, despite the
government's failure in addressing all the systemic issues (education, crime,
public health, infra-structure, foreign investment). There's an awful
cognitive dissonance between what the population perceives and what results
are, mainly because the poor are misinformed and cannot judge (the government
will always blame an external force: the opposition, capitalism, USA,
whatever), and the middle-class prefers to ignore reality (for them, it's
better to have an incompetent, but left-wing government than to forfeit their
ideologies).

~~~
DominikR
> has a tendency to pass popular policies, as opposed to good policies

Isn't that the point of a democracy?

What do you think how many wars, regime changes and dictatorships (all
sponsored by the US) South America would have seen in the last 50 years if
every single one of those aggressions had to pass a popular democratic vote in
the first place?

I do not think that there ever has been a majority in any country (where the
basic needs of everyone is met) that would consistently vote pro war.

I my view the real problem is that we only get those "good policies" and never
the chance to choose or at least vote for policies we actually like.

~~~
hcarvalhoalves
> Isn't that the point of a democracy?

No, the point of democracy is reaching compromises.

------
bpodgursky
Uruguay's population is 3.3 million, which is a bit smaller than Oklahoma, for
comparison. It's not shocking to me that a head of state of a small country
like that doesn't have all the trappings and security a of a country of 100mm
/ 300mm / a billion people.

~~~
grecy
These size comparisons always seem strange to me.

Uruguay has 3.3 million people, so they collect tax from that many to spend on
important stuff like schools, firemen and healthcare.

The US has 310 million people, so they collect tax from that many to spend on
important stuff like schools, firemen and healthcare.

The fact that the US has more people to collect taxes from means it's
spendings pot is obviously much bigger, but that absolutely does not mean it
can be wasted on "trappings" for the leaders. Each and every person still
needs all the basic services, so at the end of the day, there is the same
basic amount per person to spend.

Why do you think that a country with more taxpayers has more money for
"trappings"?

~~~
bpodgursky
I agree with you on stuff like schools, firemen, and healthcare. But it's a
different calculation for a head of state. When 300mm people look to an
individual as a leader (rather than 3mm people) there are 100x as many threats
to their security via disgruntled citizens, crazy people, etc, so physical
security has to scale.

It's like saying, "why does the mayor of my town not need the same number of
secret service as the president?" There are just far fewer things they feel
the need to defend from.

~~~
grecy
Rather than spending money "defending" your leaders, wouldn't it be better if
you addressed the issues and actually figured out why people want to cause
harm to their leaders?

You know, many developed countries don't even have a security force for their
leaders, and for example, the ex-Prime Minister of Australia went jogging all
the time by himself, in whatever city he happens to be in.

~~~
mynameishere
_figured out why people want to cause harm to their leaders_

Here's why people try to assassinate politicians:

#1 They're nuts (Hinkley, Czolgosz, Squeaky Fromme).

#2 They have some reason for doing so (Gavrilo Princip, Booth, probably
Oswald).

There. Figured it out. As it happens, there are probably 100x as many nuts in
the US as Uruguay, and probably 10,000,000 times more possible motives to kill
the head of state/head of government/commander in chief/international
celebrity who holds the US's highest office. Now you try and fix those two
things.

~~~
grecy
> Now you try and fix those two things.

You mean with care for the mentally ill, etc. like in developed countries?

~~~
beachwood23
So you want to lock up any person who shows the slightest sign of instability?

~~~
grecy
I said care, not incarceration.

I want to treat them, give them access to professional help - you know, care
for them.

------
imd23
I'm Uruguayan and I love my country but please, Argentina is at least 2 or 3
times cheaper in everything and you have way more options and things to do.

Also, I've just came from Buenos Aires, Argentina yesterday, me and my friends
feel way more safe in Buenos Aires' streets than in Montevideo. We are really
far from perfect.

~~~
GFischer
I'm Uruguayan too and I don't feel safer in Buenos Aires.

I do agree security has gone down the drain and is now the #1 problem here (I
was robbed twice this year).

And I also agree we're far from perfect. We do get some things right at least
:)

------
yarou
We need more leaders like this in the US. This man understood the debilitating
condition of poverty, and despite all the odds, succeeded with no help from
anybody.

------
pfortuny
Mhj... Palaces, motorcades and "frills" are designed to allow the governors to
work from the "abstract", which is the only sensible way to make good,
consistent and long-term policy.

The first question that comes to mind is... Is the palace his property to turn
it (or just part of it) into a shelter? Because being president does not turn
you into the owner of the palace.

What is the former presidential driver working at?

Etc.

------
gwu78
"A revolution is when you change your thinking."

------
NicoFrank
I live in Uruguay and I can tell that all this Mujica thing has a lot of
marketing on top of it. He is just a drunk old man that hasn´t done anything
successful in his life. He is really unqualified for the job he is doing and
usually uses the slogan "I tell what I think" because he is usually drunk.

------
smtddr
OffTopic: The picture used in this article looks like a 3D rendering...
[http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?f=121&t=1105204](http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?f=121&t=1105204)

------
dep_b
Mujica is probably one of the better leaders in South America. Mainly by not
doing too much instead of the big bold moves that his colleagues at the other
side of the Rio Plata favor so much.

But stop the worshipping please.

~~~
ggambetta
No, he isn't. The country has gone to shit under his "leadership":
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6886261](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6886261)

~~~
dep_b
Since the production of cocaine shifted more southwards to satisfy the always
needy users of the Western nations after it became harder and harder to
produce in Colombia all countries in the region have rising problems with
security.

