
Why Americans Are Going Abroad - misiti3780
https://medium.com/migration-issues/why-are-americans-leaving-75fe530ce49d?sectionName=suggested
======
lotsofmangos
For comparison, when asked in the UK Parliament, the Secretary of State for
Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs gave an estimate for the number of British
nationals living abroad of around 13 million people.
[http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200506/cmhansrd/v...](http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200506/cmhansrd/vo060322/text/60322w15.htm)

Which given the UK population of 64 million, is a massive diaspora and
completely dwarfs the 7.5 million foreign-born residents in the UK.

edit - these figures led me to the sobering conclusion that here in the UK we
should really be keeping quiet about immigration and hope nobody notices

~~~
pjc50
It's the legacy of colonialism. There is an assumed right for Brits to go
anywhere we want. It looks like a majority of the Brits abroad are in
Commonwealth countries, which is sort of what I'd expect. Over a million in
the US!

If you look closely at UK newspaper comments/letters complaining about
immigration, quite a few of them are from people living in Spain. And one of
the more notorious anti-immigrant columnists lives in Florida, IIRC.

~~~
kjjw
What I find particularly funny is that:

\- a positive net immigration rate into the UK has been critical in continuing
to develop our economy,

\- those people from the UK living in Spain will, mostly, be retired people,

\- those newspaper comments will complain bitterly about immigrants not
contributing, stealing welfare, and so on. Which is exactly what those people
complaining are doing, and exactly not what the people they complain about are
doing!

------
bruceb
Immigration is complex but what I hate is the BS and half lies that are told
like this author does. "We debate immigration and border controls for Mexico
ad nauseum, yet, on the whole, the typical immigrant isn’t Mexican."

Like many newspapers the author is trying to blur the line between legal and
illegal immigrant. The reason we are talking about border controls is because
yes most come from Mexico. The typical person who is here illegally is
Mexican, over 60% are from Mexico.
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illegal_immigration_to_the_Unit...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illegal_immigration_to_the_United_States#Present-
day_countries_of_origin) Add in central America and around 75% of people
coming illegally are from southern border. I can understand their motivation.
What I can't stand is trying to present BS.

When they author is trying to obscure facts one must wonder what other stats
he is omitting or only half presenting.

As for taxes. Yes taxes suck. They also fund a ton of things that make
American #1 in many areas. Should Americans abroad pay as much as American at
home, of course not. But they clearly should still pay. You have a great
passport and can come back to a country that has a wealth of opportunities
that are not available in most other places and in some cases no where else.
Why should you get to pay nothing while the rest of Americans maintain the
great country for you to come back when you please? Maybe we should make it
cheaper for people to renounce their citizenship, they are not needed.

Note: I should have made two post splitting comment on the immigration stats
and taxes in to two posts to see the up/down vote difference based on the
issues.

~~~
Fuxy
You seem to be putting the US on too high of a pedestal.

Reality is the US is not all that and you can get most if not all the
opportunities you're talking about somewhere else maybe even better healthcare
and unemployment benefits without having to pay tax to a country you're not
even using the public services of.

I have multiple citizenship and I would find it unacceptable if any of the
countries demanded more then their fair share or charges.

Having to pay to renew you passport or processing other paperwork is
acceptable paying tax to a country you don't live in isn't.

Having to pay 2K to renounce you citizenship is crazy and the fact that a lot
of people still do shows how bad the policy and taxes are.

Reality is owning a US citizenship in a foreign country when you have no
intention of coming back is detrimental to your financial well being.

I'm not much for patriotism and other such niceties looking at it as a cold
business transaction it is detrimental to the owner with very few benefits
compared to other countries.

~~~
yodsanklai
> Having to pay to renew you passport or processing other paperwork is
> acceptable paying tax to a country you don't live in isn't.

One could argue that growing up in the US gave you a lot of benefits
(infrastructure, education, healthcare, security and so on...), and that
paying tax (even if not living there anymore) is a reasonable price for this.

~~~
Fuxy
One can argue that growing up in any European country gave you similar
benefits and they require none of that.

You can't control where you are born but you can choose what citizenship you
keep so shop around for a better 'offer'.

~~~
yodsanklai
(but taxes are higher in Europe)

I agree that from a practical point of view, it makes sense to shop around. I
just disagree with the argument we hear sometimes "I don't owe anything to my
country". It's not the same to be born in the US than let say a poor african
country.

------
dataker
> Italy makes it remarkably easy for descendants of Italian emigrants to claim
> citizenship, for example

Hm... No.

It took me 4 years to obtain my Italian citizenship(from my mother). We almost
had a court battle for them to accept a missing letter(literally).

~~~
IkmoIkmo
Friend of my dad's moved to Italy, learned to speak the language fluently and
spent every day of his 20 years or so there working hard and being an
upstanding citizen. He started a family there, but because he missed some
paperwork early on, his kids never became Italians and neither did he or his
wife.

So yeah his kids were born in Italy, all grew up in Italy, speak Italian
fluently (natively), went to school there etc, but eventually they all moved
away as they don't have citizenship. They're now mostly in the US. They run
businesses and all have advanced degrees.

My dad spoke with him a few times about getting citizenship but it'd be a very
long process. They've essentially committed to a life elsewhere.

In other words, there seems to be absolutely no reason for them not to be
Italians, other than some kafkaesque messed up bureaucracy that servers no
actual purpose.

~~~
davidw
> kafkaesque messed up bureaucracy

This kind of describes immigration bureaucracy anywhere and everywhere.

Here's Linus Torvalds on some of the hassles he had:
[http://www.linuxjournal.com/article/3655](http://www.linuxjournal.com/article/3655)
(search for green card). That's the kind of person you should be laying out
the red carpet for.

------
jamessantiago
I wonder how increases in remote work acceptance will affect emigration. If
you allow remote work from anywhere it would seem like moving to another
country on some sort of visa would be an instant pay increase using the
foreign earned income tax break.

~~~
davidw
Except that you have to pay taxes in that foreign country. Many of them have
higher taxes than the US, and in any case, having to file taxes _twice_ is not
fun.

~~~
reuven
Many countries (including Israel, where I live) have tax treaties with the US.
You still need to file US taxes every year, but any money you pay toward your
country of residence counts toward your American taxes, up to a certain
ceiling.

The fact that US income tax is lower than those in most other countries means
that such people will almost never paying any actual tax -- and, believe it or
not, are even entitled to a tax refund from the US government.

So yes, it's a pain that the US makes me file tax forms every year. Or more
realistically, the US makes me pay an accountant to handle this for me. But
the odds of my having to pay income tax to the US are pretty slim,
until/unless I'm making a ton of money, in which case I'm sure that my
accountant will think of new clever ways to avoid doing so.

~~~
deciplex
> The fact that US income tax is lower than those in most other countries
> means that such people will almost never paying any actual tax -- and,
> believe it or not, are even entitled to a tax refund from the US government.

After you exhaust the foreign-earned income credit (which is roughly 90K),
you're basically paying the higher of US and local tax. And it's not always
lower e.g. Americans in Hong Kong will end up paying tax.

I've never heard of anyone getting a refund from this.

~~~
airza
The netherlands at least has a "highly skilled migrant" system wherein you are
refunded a chunk of your dutch taxes. This results in paying a similar amount
to the US.

------
vorg
> there was only one country that had received more historic migration from
> the US than the US had received from it: Australia

In NZ we call Australia "the 52nd state", but perhaps it's now taken "the 51st
state" title from Canada!

------
Tharkun
Bloody immigrants. Go back to your own country.

Oh wait, sorry, Americans aren't immigrans, they're expats. My bad.

Double standards on immigration are pretty shitty.

~~~
seivan
I know you were just trying to be frivolous and sarcastic, but it doesn't help
the debate.

You're just as bad at treating immigration as a homogenous group like genuine
xenophobes.

You do realise there are valid points to being against certain parts of
immigration - which most people are, they're against _certain_ parts of it.

For instance, these people aren't refugees, they are however treated as
refugees
[https://m.facebook.com/MissionDawahSverige](https://m.facebook.com/MissionDawahSverige)
Even though they openly support ISIS.

I call them invaders or invasion force, but that's for a lack of a better
term.

However Sweden treat them as refugees and count them as "children" \- (yeah
even with the beard)

