
Long-term stress erodes memory - upen
http://sciencebulletin.org/archives/1327.html
======
lkrubner
By the far, the most stressful thing I've ever done is stay with my dad while
he died of cancer. For the last two weeks of his life, I stayed at the long-
term care facility he was at. I put all my client's projects on hold so I
could be with him. I stayed perhaps 18 or more hours of each day. I slept in
the chair next to his bed. I did my best to take care of what he needed. When
he was in pain I would go out into the hall and plead with the nurses to get
more pain medication, though sometimes they were hesitant because he had taken
too much (long story there, and I knew nothing about how the system worked
then, but apparently you have to say very specific words, which are full of
legal meaning, to make clear that a person wants an unlimited supply of pain
killers during their final days). When he was lucid we would talk. When he
wasn't lucid, I would do what I could to comfort him. I was alone with him in
the room when he died.

And after that... my concentration was gone. For a good two years. My ability
to write code for 70 hours a week, and think of it as fun, was gone. My mental
clarity was gone. It took a solid two years to come back, maybe three years.

My dad was my best friend and losing him hit me very hard. And I learned there
are some kinds of emotional stress that take years to recover from.

~~~
roflc0ptic
Kind of tangentially: my dad's dying, and I'm in the process of forcing him to
compile end of life documents. So far it is the most stressful thing. Bank
accounts, utilities, titles, living will, power of attorney, retirement funds,
medical proxy paperwork, the actual will.

If you're reading this, do everyone in your life a favor and take care of this
shit this week and email it to the people who will be cleaning up your life
when you're done with it. It's the courteous thing to do.

~~~
junto
I'm sorry to hear about your Dad. That you are helping him resolve these
outstanding issues is most likely a huge relief for him.

I've been interested in compiling an end of life documents for myself for my
family. Have you found any resources that offer some kind of checklist and
guidance as to everything one might need to complete for such a process?

~~~
rubidium
The problem with a checklist is it's _highly_ nation and state dependent.

That said, in the US, generally:

1) Last will and testament: what to do with your stuff when you die

2) Living will: what medical treatment you desire while unable to decide for
yourself

3) Power of attorney: who handles your accounts if your incapable

------
tomohawk
Great. Something else to be stressed about.

Kidding aside, stress is a deadly serious thing. I never took it seriously
until it nearly did me in. I can also attest to the memory and other cognitive
issues. It can take quite a while to recover.

The most stressful situations are where you are expected to perform, but have
little or no control. This could be a job situation or some other situation.
Find a new situation or a way to establish more control. Better to lose that
job than your ability to work at any job.

The last thing you want to do if you're constantly stressed is to just suck it
up. It's one thing to do that for a limited duration to achieve something
specific, it's another thing to do that indefinitely with no end in sight.

~~~
proactivesvcs
It seems to be one of those conditions that gradually grinds one down. You
know when your leg is broken that you are broken. It's much harder to realise
and accept that after years of stress, you are far more broken than a mere
broken bone.

------
neuronexmachina
A lot of folks are focusing on the title, but I think this is the most
interesting part:

> When they gave the mice a chemical that inhibited inflammation, neither the
> brain-cell problem nor the depressive symptoms went away. But the memory
> loss and inflammatory macrophages did disappear.

>And that led them to conclude that the post-stress memory trouble is directly
linked to inflammation — and the immune system — rather than to other damage
to the brain. That type of information can pave the way for immune-based
treatments, Godbout said.

~~~
ChuckMcM
To me, it feels like inflammation is the new cholesterol.

~~~
unclebucknasty
Yeah, whenever we declare all out war on something, it's pretty much a
guarantee of future recantations.

A lot of it seems to run along the lines of confusing correlation with
causation.

~~~
summarite
It's an interesting term that seems to mean something when in reality we
understand little about the mechanism and effects. But good to keep
researching it, i suppose.

------
navs
Oh what a vicious cycle this is. As someone battling with depression, I tend
to take on a lot of side projects and extra work in order to keep my mind busy
and avoid those thoughts.

Then I get stressed because I have so much to do.

~~~
marcosdumay
> avoid those thoughts

Avoiding anything is always the worst option. Get some professional help on
how to deal with the thoughts.

~~~
dbg31415
I'm almost certain he meant stave off the depression rather than "avoid" like
you are reading it. Staying busy, staying in a routine, can help keep people
from getting down.

Telling people to "get help" is really frustrating since the help seldom
helps. It's just a blow-off conversation-ender. Don't assume they aren't
getting help, don't assume that someone suffering an episode can't fix it on
their own given time.

~~~
WillEngler
This was one of the main takeaways from a delightful interview about
depression with Peter Sagal ([https://www.apmpodcasts.org/thwod/2016/12/peter-
sagal-opens-...](https://www.apmpodcasts.org/thwod/2016/12/peter-sagal-opens-
up/))

"Avoiders" who push themselves into social situations and work they care about
will fare better than ruminators.

------
okreallywtf
I would be interested to know whether or not there is a relationship between
stress and lack of sleep as well that could account for some of the memory
issues related to stress.

I was in a very stressful relationship in college that resulted also in a lot
of sleep loss (although oddly I rarely had problems falling asleep probably
because of exhaustion, just got way too little of it), strangely it didn't
seem to affect me that much negatively at the time. I managed to get basically
straight A's but I had to lose more sleep to do it and finally graduate and
then go on to a masters sans relationship, but in the past 3 years I've still
had a different and tenuous relationship with sleep and lately I feel like its
started to affect me. Despite having a fairly low-stress life (current
relationship is low stress, job is low stress, high-maintenance family is kind
of taking care of itself), I'm noticing some of the symptoms referenced in the
study, but it would have to be either a delayed reaction or more sleep-related
than stress-related.

~~~
robg
Sleep is physiologically the recovery from stress. Two sides of the same
physiological coin - the autonomic nervous system. Sadly, there's little work
on how stress affects sleep and vice versa. Typically they've been separate
academic or clinical labs.

------
unclebucknasty
A hidden source of stress can be a single individual (or two) who causes you
ongoing low levels of stress, without you realizing how big a toll it's really
taking on you.

I've had it happen, wherein I wonder why I'm feeling anxious, angry, or
otherwise. Then, I step back and recognize how a particular person is treating
me and realize that a) it's simply wrong/unfair and b) I'm allowing it to
happen and allowing it to get to me.

It doesn't mean it's malicious or intentional, but it's no less affecting.

I'd encourage everyone to step back once in a while and objectively consider
their relationships, then tweak, manage, or dispose as necessary.

~~~
98Windows
>dispose as necessary I've seen this piece of advice float around quite a bit.
I always find it really difficult to understand. If you suspect someone in one
of your social groups is causing you a big problem, you can't just eliminate
them, they are connected to other people you know too (this might be a family
or a workplace).

Then the question turns into, shall I leave and find new social groups? This
is such a high risk act.

~~~
unclebucknasty
Depending on the structure of the group, it can definitely be more complicated
and can otherwise be somewhat disruptive to the group.

But, there are still ways to put distance between yourself and the source of
the problem. And, keep in mind that the distance may not always be physical,
but involve other ways to limit contact/interaction.

Also, depending on the type of problems the person is causing you, it's very
possible that others in your group are experiencing the same from the person
and may also want distance, or at least be supportive of you.

I've unfortunately had to do it with a member of a close group. It was for the
same hostile, destructive behavior the person was clearly displaying towards
other members of the group and they were well aware of it. I simply told them
I was no longer willing to tolerate it, so couldn't be around when the person
was. I also explained that I was responsible for my growing family, who
depended on me, and I could not afford the additional stress.

It created a rift, but the other members and I still make effort to see each
other without this person present. It can usually be done. Virtually any
situation can be changed. You just have to decide whether it's worth it.
You'll know when it is.

------
asdfologist
Stress tends to wreak havoc on the entire body, so I'd have been surprised if
this _weren 't_ the case.

~~~
dom0
A couple years ago I remember reading an article that bullying in school has
strong epigenetic effects in the children given birth to by bullied people.
That realization, that by bullying people you don't just break _them_ , but
even hurt _their unborn children_ ...

~~~
handsomechad
do you have a link or source for this? not doubting you just curious to read
more

~~~
kryptiskt
There has been a lot of sloppy epigenetic studies, here is the sceptical view:
[https://www.theguardian.com/science/blog/2015/sep/11/why-
im-...](https://www.theguardian.com/science/blog/2015/sep/11/why-im-sceptical-
about-the-idea-of-genetically-inherited-trauma-epigenetics)

------
mabbo
My mother is obsessive about not losing her memory as she gets older, paranoid
about dementia and Alzheimer's.

I just sent her this article. This probably won't help.

------
chairmankaga
I can also confirm that I've noticed after a very stressful period of over 4
years that my memory was completely shot.

When I entered the workforce, at first I noticed I couldn't remember names at
all, I would have to either concentrate on the name while ignoring the
conversation in front of me, or I pay attention to the conversation but have
an almost certain chance I will forget the name.

I've noticed in general that I had poor short term memory, but I never
realised this issue when I was in college.

The worst part was not being able to remember what tasks I accomplished just a
few hours before at work, boy that always made me feel good.

It's been driving me nuts for years, I'm unsure how much I have recovered if
at all.

------
rhizome
Robert Sapolsky has dealt with this field quite a bit and is a plain-spoken
and engaging academic concerned with much of what is being discussed in this
thread. I highly recommend a documentary he co-produced, "Stress: Portrait of
a Killer."

A short interview on the topic:
[https://www.washingtonpost.com/express/wp/2008/09/23/heres_o...](https://www.washingtonpost.com/express/wp/2008/09/23/heres_one_way_to_avoid/)

YouTube:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eYG0ZuTv5rs](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eYG0ZuTv5rs)

------
omilu
_> >Mice that were repeatedly exposed to the aggressive intruder had a hard
time recalling where the escape hole was in a maze they’d mastered prior to
the stressful period_

This sounds like an extreme level of stress, of course the poor mouse has
memory issues. I don't think you need to worry if you have ordinary levels of
stress from traffic, mortgage, kids etc... But if you live in Syria and your
city gets destroyed by war, then yeah, your brain performance will suffer, but
I don't think anyone would be surprised by that result.

~~~
tw04
This goes back to another discussion that has been had on here though. It's
how the stress is PERCEIVED. To someone who has a family to feed, the idea of
losing their job may be PERCEIVED by them as being just as bad as the guy in
Syria worrying if his house will be bombed.

I don't disagree that the guy in Syria is more justified in his perception of
a greater stress, but the soccer dad's body doesn't really care about the guy
in Syria or their relative justifications for level of stress.

~~~
proactivesvcs
Everything is relative.

------
okreallywtf
I'm not trying to make a serious point here and I don't know enough about the
study to say that it was unethical, but this sounds terrifying and kind of
like a bad prison experience.

> This is the first study of its kind to establish the relationship between
> short-term memory and prolonged stress. In the case of the mice, that meant
> repeat visits from a larger, nasty intruder mouse.

> Mice that were repeatedly exposed to the aggressive intruder had a hard time
> recalling where the escape hole was in a maze they’d mastered prior to the
> stressful period.

------
azernik
As far as I understand, long term stress erodes pretty much _everything_.

------
NinjaViktor
I discovered a short memory loss on myself. It's more like an instant blockage
rather than a memory loss.

Whenever I have multiple tasks to cover in a short amount of time, my
creativity levels stutter. I find myself unable to come up with quick and
creative solutions instantly. I guess I need to learn how to work under
pressure although I've read that multitasking is counter productive.

I find short breaks helpful but most of the time I can't afford them because
of the urgent nature of the tasks. Writing down helps a lot when I do routine
actions, but I still believe that this might not be the best method to
incentivize creativity.

------
Pica_soO
So anxiety - aka constant stress also causes a learning disability?

------
davis
For those that are stressed about stress, Kelly McGonigal has some really
interesting research on stress and the picture isn't quite as black and white.
Depending on how the person views stress, it can benefit the person instead of
harming them.

Her book: [https://www.amazon.com/Upside-Stress-Why-Good-
You/dp/1101982...](https://www.amazon.com/Upside-Stress-Why-Good-
You/dp/1101982934/)

~~~
criddell
Stress is such a broad term. The first beneficial type of stress that comes to
mind for me is exercise.

------
otaviokz
That explains why my memory improved remarkably after I had half a dozen CBT
(Cognitive Behavioural Therapy) for sessions for GAD (General Anxiety
Disorder).

------
noshbrinken
It's comforting to find other Hacker News readers who have experienced stress-
induced cognitive impairment. A recent mental breakdown eroded my cognitive
abilities. One of the worst aspects of this experience is the feeling that I'm
no longer good enough for the work, the communities, and the discourses that
are the primary passions of my life.

------
angryteabag
How do you know you're stressed?

I'm a Jr dev who spent a year sneaking into lectures, studying, stealing food
before I became employable. I now work 70 hours a week for peanuts and
although I feel fine, I am pretty sure I am about to rip my hair out.

Oh yeah, I'm probably pretty stressed.

What do I do about this?

~~~
justinpombrio
You do not need to work 70 hours a week. You would be more productive if you
worked 40 hours a week. Beyond a certain point, more time spent is a net
negative, because it hurts your ability to think clearly. Plus, even if it
_did_ make you more productive, the cost _still_ wouldn't be worth it.

Thus, whatever is motivating you to work longer hours is mistaken. If it is
your own belief, fix it. If it is the belief of the company you work at,
either try to work with them to get more reasonable hours or try to find a new
job.

------
blackkettle
actually makes pretty good sense as a coping mechanism I guess. decreased
memory function might help erase bad experiences, thereby decreasing stress -
unless your job depends on abnormally high levels of recall... probably not a
big issue in days gone by.

~~~
hansreiter
I used to have an incredible memory, and in general attributed my SHARP
decline in recall to just getting a bit older (though I'm only 27 now...).
Still, I did feel that this decline helped me a lot for the very reason you
mention. I used to get panic attacks a lot -- not so much anymore. I've joked
before that it's almost like I've forgotten my triggers, and that my short
term memory is so bad that I don't get stuck in the panic feedback loop so
easily anymore.

~~~
rubicon33
Hope you don't mind me asking - Are you on, or have you taken, SSRIs? I've
been interested in them for a while, and one thing I've read fairly
consistently is that they can cause short term (and in some cases long term)
memory degradation.

~~~
hansreiter
No, I've never taken SSRIs. At one point I was taking xanax, but only when I
had panic attacks. I hear that benzos like xanax have an affect on short term
memory. I only took maybe 30-40 pills over two years. Hopefully such a
seemingly cautious dose wasn't enough to mess me up!

------
mtdewcmu
I would call this the pathophysiology of burnout. I have lots of personal
experience of this.

------
HillaryBriss
i wouldn't be surprised to learn that this is not universal, that there are
some individuals whose reaction to this sort of stress does not cause the sort
of brain damage described in this paper.

------
pavel_lishin
I've definitely noticed this with our kid. There are days when I'm using the
tracking app no so much to create a long-term record, but to make sure that
I've actually fed her recently.

------
halspero
Presumably this happens because the stressful situation or memory repeatedly
activates the attention system thereby priming it towards the stressor and
making it hard to address any other memory.

------
fithisux
I can confirm it from personal experience. I have A.D. and O.C.D.

------
rubicon33
"This new research focused on the hippocampus, a hub of memory and emotional
response."

Hasn't depression research been focused on hippocampus function for some time
now?

------
robg
Pretty much textbook science from animal models. Stress wrecks havoc on
typical brain functions including memory, learning, attention, even decision
making.

------
sidcool
Somehow crying helps deal with stress. Stress manifests itself in various ways
for different people, but crying or going for a run helps me.

~~~
unclebucknasty
I think the notion of letting stuff out in general helps with stress.
Socially, it's somehow unacceptable to show even righteous anger or other
"negative" emotions.

Letting those build up definitely hurts.

------
Question1101
So what can you do? How can you escape it?

~~~
cshep
I found that learning how and when to say 'no' to your boss is a great start.

~~~
itissid
Is there some good reference on how might I do that?

~~~
Jare
My general tips (not always possible or applicable, but hey):

\- Highlight the cost of doing what he says. There is always a cost, but
either you or him/her may be misunderstanding or miscalculating it.

\- Ask why it needs to be done.

\- Offer alternatives.

\- Keep in mind he/she has more to lose than you if the conversation goes bad.

\- Stay polite.

------
jpttsn
People rush to confirm from "personal experience" what has been observed in
mice?

~~~
WalterSear
And mostly bring up sleep deprivation instead of stress.

------
thinkMOAR
Possible, though generally stress also caused very clear memories, called
traumas...

~~~
xj9
acute vs. chronic stress

------
eternalvision
Notice that this article was posted May 20, 2016. Why was it posted today
(January 2, 2017) on HN?

~~~
grzm
The "News" in Hacker News can be interpreted as a bit of a misnomer. The idea
that it's only for newly-published material is a mistaken one. It's for
anything that "gratifies one's intellectual curiosity"[0]. It'd be a shame to
prevent submissions only because they weren't discovered recently enough.

[0]:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html](https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html)

------
thro3212
Sadly I can confirm this from personal experience. I was under a lot of stress
for the past three years.

Before stress started I had almost photographic memory. I was not very smart
software developer. But ability to recall patterns and documentation fast,
made me very productive. I worked at CS semi-research position and spoke at
conference every other month.

Now it takes mental effort to recall what I did 4 hours ago. I can only
program if I strictly follow my TDD routine and design notes. Recently I could
not even pass job interview for trivial entry level position :(

Stress is mostly gone now, but it will take about one year to recover. It is
very weird period. People, who do not know me well, think I actually improved
over past three years. I fixed my health, lifestyle, social interactions...; I
took every advantage I could to compensate for damage caused by stress.

Now, I can feel improvements every week, and I am basically starting from
scratch. Once I get my old memory back and combine it with new things I
learned to cope, I will be unstoppable :)

~~~
stevanl
Would you mind elaborating a bit on the "took every advantage I could to
compensate for the damage caused by stress."

In a similar position and would be good to learn what worked for you.

~~~
thro3212
At start I dropped everything non essential, then fixed it one thing at a
time. Key was to establish routine and patterns, which does not drain mental
energy and time from me.

For example I have simple exercise routine I do every evening. It is just
stuff I do before shower and bed. I also stopped driving in narrow city roads,
I leave a car at motorway exit and walk last mile.

Forget self-help stuff. It is really just basics; fix your sleep, health, sex,
community you live in...

For programming I follow simple TDD routine (and other simple best practices).
And I do not do anything else at computer except making money. Today is an
exception, I have 2 hours a week for facebook and news ;-)

~~~
throw345343
as someone that's suffering from these symptoms rightnow, I'd be happy to
listen to any advice you could offer. My memory used to be very very good, but
these days I forget things easily and have a hard time recalling details from
stories that may have happened years ago. For me, i bootstrapped a startup for
a long time (4 years) and ultimately failed and walked away from it and have
been picking myself up since then.

~~~
summarite
Invest time in your mental health, ie give your brain time and the possibility
to truly rest. Meditation, walks in the woods (no headphones!), a fun (!) book
at a rekaxing place. Or if that's too much at least start by not filling every
minute. No smartphone on the toilet, no music or podcasts while walking to
work, swim rather than gym, walk or public transport where possible rather
than the car, not every evening a beer "to relax" but instead just a warm
drink, smartphone away when playing with the kids, ...

If you really want to go bold, one of the best decisions in my life was to do
a ten day silent meditation (i did one of those of dhamma.org; free courses
where you of course donate according to your means at the end).

Idle time is an investment in your brain. We don't need constant information
or entertainment.

------
bbcbasic
Mods, can we change link to [https://news.osu.edu/news/2016/03/02/long-term-
stress-erodes...](https://news.osu.edu/news/2016/03/02/long-term-stress-
erodes-memory/)

The linked article is full of popups, ads and dark patterns.

