
The Voyeur's Motel - MrJagil
http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2016/04/11/gay-talese-the-voyeurs-motel
======
uptownfunk
_He also made note of guests whose behavior he found weird or upsetting: the
guy who secretly urinated in his date’s bourbon; the obese fellow who checked
in with a much younger man and then dressed him up in a furry costume with
horns, saying, “You are heavenly; I have never seen a more beautiful sheep-
boy. "_

~~~
sridca
_He had come to believe that the arrival of the birth-control pill, in the
early sixties, which he’d originally celebrated, encouraged many men to expect
sex on demand: “Women had won the legal right to choose but had lost the right
to choose the right moment.” He felt that the war between the sexes had
escalated and that sexual relations were getting worse, not better._

*

 _He maintained that most men are natural voyeurs. “But most women prefer
being watched to watching others,” he said, “which may partly explain why men
spend fortunes on porn and women on cosmetics.”_

------
ryankupyn
The most concerning thing about this article is the implications if someone
like Foos has access to the levers of modern technology. Imagine if, instead
of owning a motel, he worked on Dropcam at Nest (I certainly hope they have
the ability to monitor and audit their own personnel, for their own sake).

The article is really a brilliant example of how we should not view the
organizations/institutions we interact with as impersonal abstractions, but
should always consider the human beings - and human flaws/motives - behind
them.

~~~
LouisSayers
* turns head to look out for seedy looking ops / db admin guys in the room

It is pretty crazy - only two people returned that 'suitcase full of money'.

------
joshontheweb
All morality aside, this is a pretty fascinating glimpse into american/human
personal culture. Adding morality back in and it is hard not to consider this
a serious breach of trust and worthy of countless criminal charges.

~~~
cwhipasapa
What did you find fascinating about it? (I assume you're referring to the
content of the journals not the story about it)

~~~
joshontheweb
The story and the journal. I actually just got back from an overnight getaway
with my wife last night where we stayed in a small privately owned motel. I
couldn't help but find myself wondering who could have been watching. This
sort of thing would be much easier to pull off with todays technology and I'm
sure that it does happen more.

How violated would I feel if I found out that a creep motel owner was
watching? How would I feel about that compared to the government surveillance
that is happening.

I can confidently say that I am far more worried about big brother than the
motel clerk. Although neither are welcome.

I suspect there are many gems in his journals that mirror societal norms and
deviations of the time. The inter-racial sex trends. The 70 orgys. I never
knew you could sit on a toilet sideways or backwards. Why would you do this?
Maybe I'll convert, who knows!

The fact that he explained it all away in his mind is especially curious. It
is easy to judge but are we as a society of major consumers of pornography and
reality tv really that far away from this guy? There are some obvious legal
distinctions in his actions but the compulsion seems alive and well in most
people.

The whole story just brought up so many questions and curiosities.

EDIT: Spelling

------
russnewcomer
This is a pretty disturbing article, and I feel like Talese should have
reported Foos to the local authorities. Foos is clearly a serial sexual
offender, and should have been reported or at the very least put into
treatment. Talese admits that Foos is an unreliable narrator and is pretty
clearly a voyeur for sexual purposes, mentally shielding himself by saying,
"oh, I'm just a researcher."

Journalism is one thing. This is enabling a predator, just as much as Foos'
two wives.

~~~
ghshephard
What are the odds that the entire story is pure (and well written) fiction,
and that Gerald Foos never existed?

~~~
qq66
Gay Talese doesn't really write fiction. He may have never written a fiction
piece in his life, it would be an odd time in his career to start.

~~~
partisan
Were you in the vent above him watching the whole time? Maybe he writes
fictional pieces and then quietly flushes them down the toilet. Maybe there's
a whole stack of fictional stories sitting on his desk waiting to be printed
based on the popularity of this story.

If I took one thing from this article, it's that you never know what other
people do or don't do. It's the thing you know, but it's jarring when you are
reminded of it.

~~~
qq66
Maybe he's a two-headed space alien.

------
Animats
Voyeurism, before low cost cameras.

The Hollywood version of this is "Sliver", from 1993, starring Sharon Stone,
William Baldwin and Tom Berenger.[1] This Gay Talese story is sort of a low-
rent version of that movie. It's so close that I suspect it was written after
seeing the movie.

[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sliver_%28film%29](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sliver_%28film%29)

------
Overtonwindow
I must confess this was a fascinating article. Voyeurism is one of those weird
things that I think most people deride, but wouldn't hesitate to participate
should the opportunity arise.

------
oska
Nice last line.

Also, I wonder if Foos' choice of name for his second notebook was a
reference, at least in part, to the John Fowles novel? [1]

I think it quite likely he was aware of the novel, given that he was a reader
and given John Fowles' high level of fame in that time period.

[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Collector](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Collector)

------
prawn
No surprise to find that the TripAdvisor page for the motel in question is
unable to find any current pricing...

[https://www.tripadvisor.com.au/Hotel_Review-g29144-d119972-R...](https://www.tripadvisor.com.au/Hotel_Review-g29144-d119972-Reviews-
Manor_House_Motel-Aurora_Colorado.html)

The author of the piece, Gay Talese, is well known for the very famous article
Frank Sinatra Has a Cold:

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Sinatra_Has_a_Cold](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Sinatra_Has_a_Cold)

~~~
300bps
The end of he article details how the motel was sold in the 90s and
subsequently completely razed.

------
wglb
Gay Talese is a great storyteller.

However, there is something slightly off about the story, most fully exhibited
by the lack of verification of the murder that Foss claimed to at least
partially witness.

Also, there are some convenient events that sustain the narrative, such as the
fact that he was able to follow one of the guests home and see her crying
through the window.

One wonders if what Foss was telling him, however train-wreck compelling, was
only about half true.

~~~
ableereelba
I agree. There is something off: the neck tie, the SOB comment, so careful yet
no fear of animals, the complicit wife, loner/sports star, a murder...

~~~
ableereelba
Gerald foos: April fools?

------
MzHN
Reading this I am constantly reminded of the story "GCHQ intercepted webcam
images of millions of Yahoo users worldwide" [1]

[1]
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7312212](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7312212)

~~~
nosuchthing
IP cameras are generally publicly accessible from the internet by a massive
amount of users due to them simply not knowing their camera system broadcasts
in such a way. Most cameras will show up with a google search for the camera
model's webpage viewer.

[http://www.opentopia.com/hiddencam.php](http://www.opentopia.com/hiddencam.php)

------
mrexroad
_I am very curious about everything and everyone I see . . . and so I have
felt invisible also, as a child feels himself invisible, beneath the radar of
adult supervision. The consequence of so much unsupervised freedom was that I
became precociously independent._

Do children today still feel "invisible, beneath the radar" given today's
general lack of "so much unsupervised freedom?" Or was Foos
invisibility/curiosity dynamic just a product of his disorder?

In college, I was career given advice along the lines of, "you're a student,
you're still under the radar and get access to so many things normally off
limits to the public. use this. go to different types of companies, ask for
special tours, ask questions you don't think they'll answer--learn how things
really work. you're not competition to them, yet." Though now days, I'm pretty
sure students are on the radar, and would just be routed to the official
corporate intern/co-op/recruiter/etc program.

------
tryitnow
This is some of the best longform I've read in a while.

If you're wavering between reading it or not, read it.

I immediately bought one of Talese's books after reading this article. He's a
fantastic writer.

------
ggggtez
The author takes a long time but eventually compares this guy to the
unibomber. Why? Who the heck knows. I really don't think that's a justified
comparison.

~~~
klodolph
I think there's a common motive here (motive for publication). People who are
disgusted by modern society, believe they have some kind of privileged moral
viewpoint (see wrongs that others don't), and want to share it with the world
but need to remain anonymous because of connected criminal acts.

~~~
basch
everyone wants a page in a history book

no one wants their name uttered for a last time.

to me it sounds like their ways of ensuring remembrance.

the end goal being to become some kind of communal deity, foras an ancestral
deity is much more at risk of being forgotten.

------
nathan_f77
This was a great read. Probably the longest article I've read in a long time.
I need more long-form content in my life.

~~~
basch
[http://redef.com/channel/media/feed](http://redef.com/channel/media/feed)

[http://readability.com/topreads](http://readability.com/topreads)

[https://longreads.com/](https://longreads.com/)

[http://longform.org/](http://longform.org/)

longform has a great app

------
silverbacknet
So many of the quotes feel like pure projection. The guy makes up little
fantasies about everyone he spied on, even assuming his tales are true, he
certainly doesn't interview them afterward to see if he guessed right or was
way off. For every fact there's a lot more deep ruminating that would be more
at home in LiveJournal than a sociology study, but it _was_ his journal, so I
can't really fault him for that.

If it's true, it's an interesting peek into _his_ mind, and confirmation of
some public vs private social mores, but all the pontification on society and
morality and futility is just so much old man yelling at clouds.

------
cwhipasapa
This is so monstrously evil I'm speechless, even discounting the alleged
murder that may or may not have taken place. I can't believe the author
knowingly took part in this and even enabled it. All men are voyeurs just like
all men are born murderers - who hasn't at some point felt like taking a life
in anger even if only for a brief moment. Most men just don't do it. There is
no justification, scientific or otherwise for this (and those claims are
extremely dubious anyway). I really hope, if this is true, there is some legal
way for Foos to suffer some serious consequences, however short the rest of
his life is.

~~~
LouisSayers
I find it interesting to see how people react to this article. I try my best
to see what can be learnt from this - he is offering insights into a private
world that we don't 'get to see', and yes the alleged murder is a caveat to
the whole thing - which should be treated (and is) treated differently to the
rest of the story.

I do find your comment quite judgemental and vengeful. I'm not condoning his
actions, but simply saying that I think we benefit as a society more from
learning from this man, including learning from his behaviour rather than
spending our energy and resources hating on and wanting to punish someone for
essentially an act (excluding the death) of which had no effect on the people
being watched.

To punish him in my mind is to say that we should keep these things in the
closet (or attic in this case), and the lesson from that is only to hide what
really goes on in the world instead of sharing what really goes on. I'd rather
know about this and encourage others to share their stories.

~~~
russnewcomer
Would your reaction be different if he were a sysadmin snooping on emails,
didn't ever do anything from the snooping, just snooped?

~~~
klodolph
To be perfectly honest with you, as someone who worked in IT and knew how
_easy_ it was to snoop on emails if I wanted, I have decided that I am okay
with a few strangers reading my emails. I decided that the alternative--being
upset about something I cannot change and which impacts me little--is worse.

I can't pretend to speak on others' behalf.

~~~
yarou
Are you okay with someone reading your biometrics? How about using that data
to determine if you're eligible for medical coverage or not?

Or using your email example, what if somebody used that information against
you in your next interview?

I'm sorry, but privacy is a black and white issue. We can either have a
surveillance state or not have one at all. Compromising on any surveillance,
carried out by humans, is frankly dangerous and naive.

~~~
klodolph
I'm sorry, but privacy is _not_ a black and white issue. It's never that
simple, and it's a disservice to try and simplify it until you can understand
it in black and white terms. There's public information, and there's private
information, but there's a whole spectrum of information (semi-public, semi-
private) inbetween. I consider emails to be akin to leaving papers on my desk
at work. J. Q. Public can't read them, but I know that janitors come through
my office every night.

~~~
yarou
To be clear, I'm fine with data mining my emails to find certain features for
analytics or data science purposes. But my point is that you, as an
individual, should be the gatekeeper to all of your information, private or
public.

Now, whether or not you choose to cede that right is entirely your prerogative
(as in the case of Gmail, where the TOS specifically outlines how your data
might be used). However, there should be no doubt that privacy is a
fundamental human right, much like property.

~~~
klodolph
Right, privacy is a fundamental human right. But that doesn't answer the
question of whether our emails are private or not.

------
feintruled
I was momentarily confused how this article was dated in the future - I guess
it takes the date of the print edition?

Very interested to see if there is any fallout from this. As interesting as
this story is, the author facilitated a crime for decades. I can't see any
other way of looking at it.

~~~
ceejayoz
> As interesting as this story is, the author facilitated a crime for decades.

As well as committing at least one himself.

> Despite an insistent voice in my head telling me to look away, I continued
> to observe, bending my head farther down for a closer view.

------
metabrew
Wow

------
cwhipasapa
I find your comment to be idiotic at best. Sorry to go off like that, but by
your logic people who condemned Dr Mengele are being judgemental (sure I know
the crimes are not nearly at the same scale). The fact that you find this
interesting or fascinating (and it is a moot point whether the observations
are really contributing anything at all to human knowledge) is completely
besides the point. I don't understand how some HN readers wouldn't think 2wice
about condemning what the NSA does (which has some justification and would be
really fascinating if we could all see it) and think of giving this a pass
(presumably since it did not involve your own privacy).

~~~
dang
Violating the site guidelines (by calling names) then heading straight for
Mengele is definitely not what makes for a good comment here. Please (re-)read
[https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html](https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html).

We detached this subthread from
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11434103](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11434103)
and marked it off-topic.

~~~
Zigurd
Oh man, I just now used "John Yoo" as a pejorative. Did I go Mengele on the
law there?

~~~
dang
How about not going down the Yoo tube either.

------
talles
[removed]

~~~
talles
[removed]

~~~
bryanlarsen
No, it's not NSFW. It's long, though, so probably not a great use of work
time.

------
rememberlenny
If you haven't noticed, the New Yorker also redesigned their top navigation.
It's a brilliant design from
[https://twitter.com/mimicdecipher](https://twitter.com/mimicdecipher) and
implemented by
[https://twitter.com/erik_erikson](https://twitter.com/erik_erikson)

~~~
bazzargh
I'm with the others in that I don't like fixed content (particularly in
landscape mode on phones), but I have seen a variation that works better; hide
the nav when the user scrolls down, show it when the user scrolls back up.
Safari on iphone does a similar thing with the back/forward buttons.

~~~
Nemo157
I hate most implementations of those more than fixed bars, I regularly scroll
slightly too far when I take a second longer to read a line than I was
expecting and need to scroll back to see what I missed; then out of nowhere a
massive header pops down and covers both what I was trying to read and the
next 3 lines so I have to scroll back even further and any flow state is
completely interrupted.

Safari on iPhone is one of the few implementations that actually works well,
playing round with it a bit now it looks like it has quite a few heuristics to
determine when to expand again. I guess most people don't care enough to
actually spend the time adding more than just "show on drag down".

------
uptownfunk
I saw "German-American" and started reading Foos's speech in the voice of
Hannibal Lechter (from the TV show..)

