
Hungry Academy - get paid to learn Ruby - jeremymcanally
http://hungryacademy.com/
======
edw519
How much do you get paid to fill out the application?

I love the idea that you're "edgy" and thinking outside the box, but honestly,
have you really thought your application process through?

As an ugly introverted nerd who still has trouble getting a date, but builds
killer software apps and loves doing it, the last thing I ever want to do is
spend multiple days in order to enter your beauty contest.

So you'll end up choosing the prettiest people who present the best and write
the prettiest code regardless of how important or influential it is.

You'd just be better off bringing _everyone_ in for the first week of the
class. By the end of that week, you'd have a much better idea of who would
succeed in your program than your seemingly random method of choice.

I've written lots of cool stuff and would love to learn Ruby in what appears
to be a great program like yours, but I'm just not hungry enough to subject
myself to more superficial rejection. There are already plenty of women around
for that.

~~~
j3
We're engineers -- not pretty people. We don't care what your face looks like,
but watching you explain who you are and what you're good at can give great
insight into your personality.

The application is more about whether you feel like a good fit for the team
than it is your programming skills. It doesn't mean "do you look good", it
doesn't mean "is your English great," and it doesn't mean "Does this look like
I 'expect' a programmer to look?"

We're trying to find out "is this a person I want to spend every day of my
career with?"

We'd LOVE to bring everyone out for one of our in-person sessions, but are
expecting a thousand applications for our 24 spots. Getting all those people
in one place would be a massive undertaking and a huge waste of time for the
976 who aren't selected.

~~~
vaksel
No it doesn't...you honestly think anyone would record a video off the top of
their head?

Those answers will be calculated to sound the way you want to hear. "Of course
I enjoy working, if I can't get 90 hours of work in, I feel depressed that I'm
not living up to my potential...taking days off is also completely
unacceptable, since I don't want to let my coworkers down."

And getting a feel for a person from a video is not too smart either. In one
case, you are friends with the person just talking. In another they are trying
to essentially beg for a job talking into a camera, alone in a room.

And if you are getting 1000 applications, it's completely dishonest to require
all those people to spend days creating their applications. You are not going
to watch 8000 hours worth of video and read all those essays...so why do you
require people to do busy work?

And if you are going get 1000 applications, you won't be picking non-
programmers either(well maybe one). So why get all those people's hopes up and
waste their time? There is no way I'd believe you'd pick someone with a
biology degree over someone who already has the basic programming knowledge,
where you don't have to explain what an IF statement is or how to create a
variable.

~~~
j3
To be honest, if it were up to me I'd take only people who didn't have a
programming background.

If you look at our community, so many great people don't have the traditional
background. Chad was a professional saxophone player. Others studied
philosophy, education, economics, or didn't study at all.

We're trying to solve the single biggest problem in our industry: talent
shortage.If we accept only programmers, then we're not growing the pool.
People with a CS background will get jobs as developers somewhere, I want to
find the amazing people who aren't yet a part of this community but are hungry
( _zing_ ) to join us.

Logistically, LivingSocial has a massive recruiting and HR team who can help
out with the screening. Add in a team of a hundred engineers who are eager to
find their next awesome colleague, and we have plenty of labor.

~~~
Kittynana
I want to thank you for this. I hadn't ever tried programming until I watched
some videos for a Stanford Java course a year ago, and I've been working my
ass off at it ever since. It turns out this is something I really enjoy and
want to continue doing. I'll definitely be applying.

------
hkarthik
Ask around your work place and find some of the grey beards that got their
start as programmers in the early 90s.

You'll find quite a few that didn't study programming or CS in school, but got
their start via company training programs in COBOL, RPG, or Visual Basic in
the late 80s and early 90s. This was back when most universities didn't have a
CS Program and programming was just a skill in high demand (much like today).

Some of these folks went on to management, system admin work, or kept pursuing
the craft and still work side by side with us today.

So what Hungry Academy is doing isn't completely new, but it's a new idea with
a fresh face.

------
JonnieCache
I've always disliked the term "hungry," usually it seems to be meant
literally, ie. "we know you currently can't afford to eat, and we're going to
exploit your weak position mercilessly."

Not to say this is necessarily what's going to happen here of course, but be
careful boys and girls.

~~~
j3
LivingSocial started with the name "HungryMachine" and one of the company's
core values is "Live Hungry" -- that's the inspiration.

We don't want to exploit anyone, hah. In fact, it's quite the opposite -- we
want to bring more people into this ridiculously bountiful world of software
development.

------
sdoering
Is it just me, or is it just the cultural difference (I am from germany, where
we - god be blessed - have laws against these kind of hours)- but if I am
expected to work 70h+/week in this thing, I belive, the same would be expected
if anyone gets that job.

Well done. slavery seems back at last.

~~~
j3
That's fair. We wanted to make sure people know this isn't just "show up at 9,
leave at 5." There are significant outside of the workday tasks like hacking
on projects, reading books, meeting with colleagues, and teaching Ruby to
kids.

But I'm not chaining anyone to a desk for 70 hours because _I_ don't want to
live that way, either.

~~~
thebrokencube
Wait, you'd get to teach Ruby to kids? I'll be honest, all of the things for
the program sound really awesome, but this is by far the most appealing point
for me. I remember hearing a saying/quote which went along the lines of "if
you can't explain something to someone else, then you don't really know the
material", and I tend to agree with this sentiment for the most part.

I think this is a great opportunity you guys are providing for the community,
and I look forward to applying to the program.

~~~
j3
It won't be required, but I'll strongly encourage people to join me in
volunteering with CodeNow, a program teaching dev skills to high school kids.

Check out <http://codenow.org/> and scroll way down for the video of me trying
to eat a jar of jelly.

------
rpwilcox
Excellent! I'm glad a big presence in the startup community is willing to
train people, instead of demanding: "OMG I CAN'T FIND ROCK STARS I R
D00MM333ED!!!!!!" like I see so many other companies do :)

~~~
sequoia
I want to second this. Given the shortage of qualified developers, I actually
find it baffling that _more_ companies aren't taking this step. Kudos to
Living Social to being proactive rather than whining about lack of talent!

------
SilasX
This is similar to another Ruby development training opportunity posted last
month, Dev Bootcamp

<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3267133> <http://devbootcamp.com>

Summary of differences I see so far are that Hungry Academy:

\- has a different tuition sign (they pay you rather than you pay them).

\- is for one employer rather than whoever they can connect you with.

\- is in DC rather than the Bay Area.

\- is 5 months rather than 2.

Both promote themselves as being compatible with those who have no programming
experience, and have an ambitious learning schedule.

(Sidenote: I was accepted for the Feb-March cohort to devbootcamp.)

~~~
otrofimo
SilasX, it would be great to hear your comments of this bootcamp.

These programs are awesome. I got accepted to devbootcamp but because I just
moved out to SF(OCT) I don't have enough funds to do it in Feb-Mar(hopefully
this summer). The Hungry Academy is an awesome idea which I would totally do
if it wasn't in DC. Why are more companies not doing something similar?

~~~
SilasX
Sad to hear it was money that kept you out. You couldn't even have paid on the
5-year schedule? I would have lent you the money to cover the first few months
(albeit at interest) once I confirmed you were accepted.

I think we'll see more of this general kind of thing in the future, where
organizations "cut the fat" out of getting people into software development.

------
vaksel
that application is terrible

I can see it being fine as a step 2...but it's way too big as a first step.
And you want someone for a job as a programmer...and yet your "filter" for
this is essays and videos?

Anyone who'd bother to waste a day writing all those essays and making the
videos, can learn RoR on their own...especially if they are already a
programmer since RoR is not that different from the other languages

~~~
cjoh
I don't work for Living Social, but I think it's a _huge_ risk that they're
taking. The form is burdensome because it needs to be. The only people that
they should get are people that _really want to learn_ and that's exactly what
they'll get here. Remember, the entrepreneurish techie on HackerNews is likely
not their audience. The 19 year old fixing Mom's computer who just failed
organic chemistry and might not want to go through with their Marine Biology
degree is.

~~~
vaksel
the 19 year old wouldn't hear about the opportunity in the first place

~~~
willyum
19 year old chiming in. Willing to take a break from getting a degree for a
great experience like this. Now to convince my parents...

~~~
j3
Apply, then if you're accepted I'll call your parents.

~~~
adam_lowe
Also, I heard he will hook up a sandwich if it will help.

------
jeffclark
Is the job salary negotiated before the program? I feel like it must be hard
to accurately judge someone's programming value before they learn how to
program.

What happens if, at the end of the 5-month program, they offer you a
desperately low-paying salary? Have you wasted 5 months and moved to DC for
nothing?

~~~
john_p_wood
Something tells me that after making it though a program like this, you'll
have plenty of job options, with the one from Living Social just being one.

~~~
thematt
Those others don't matter though because by going through the class you've
signed on for an 18 month stint with LivingSocial.

~~~
nik_0_0
In reply to you and smountcastle, here is the text verbatim: If you survive
the five-month program, you’ll be offered a position on LivingSocial’s elite
engineering team (18-month commitment required).

I read this as, if you TAKE the position on the elite engineering team after
the five-month period, the contract is for 18-months. I don't think it is
necessarily tied to the 5-month learning period.

~~~
john_p_wood
I thought the same thing. However, it looks like this was cleared up in
another thread. It seems as though you are expected to join Living Social at
then end of the training. So, it's not really an "offer" after all.

~~~
jackowayed
"expected" doesn't necessarily mean "required". Unless one of the things they
have participants sign when they agree to do the program lays out specific
penalties for refusing the job offer or leaving before 18 months, they're not
required to do anything. And if such a clause does exist, there absolutely
should be a lower bound on the salary, benefits, etc. in that contract, so
that they know they're not agreeing to work for minimum wage for 18 months.

------
araneae
Damn, that's really awesome. It seems like a cool way to get into web
programming from other fields since they don't require RoR or even a
programming background. I might have considered it if my due date wasn't in
May...

~~~
mattetti
I'm almost sure we will run more sessions in the future.

------
switz
I'm curious how you are contractually obligated to join the team for 18
months. What about salary, benefits, etc. While this could be a great
opportunity, I would feel uncomfortable not knowing what package I would be
getting after the 5 months. For all I know, they could pay us 10K for 18
months of work with no benefits.

~~~
j3
I wish I could say more about the salary.

Let's say that I taught middle school and high school for five years, and both
the training period and job afterwards pay WAY more than I ever got.

------
enry_straker
I used a similar approach when i wanted Windows internals programmers in the
early 90's. I just called it a internal training program, though.

Irrespective of the number of hours put up, i still think a person new to
rails will get a chance to pick up a lot of knowledge and be mentored in the
proces - and is a good deal for collage kids.

~~~
j3
In a week, or so, you'll find out how this is very different from an internal
training program. We're going to make this very _external_ , a learning
experience for whoever wants to be involved.

~~~
enry_straker
Apologies if this came across negetively.

My goal, at the time i started my company, was to build a really hard-core
team. I am sure that is one of your goals too, aside from providing a really
intensive training program for your participants.

I would suggest focusing on good habits and good attitude to learning and
problem-solving and having fun in the process. Don't allow them to burn out
short-term.

~~~
j3
Totally agree. I'm taking a lot of lessons from my time in Teach for America
where they pushed us hard but still fostered the love for each other, the
program, and of course our students.

------
venturebros
Hmm I have just started working with RoR. Would jump at this but the DC part
is turning me away.

I know you guys said you had an office in Seattle any chance of a similar
program there?

Edit: And I also would like to add that I wish there were more programs like
this. So many companies want to hire elite,rockstar,jedi,ninja,etc programmers
and not willing to give people like me with no CS background a chance. I can't
even get an entry-level/junior position since they all require a strong skills
these days.

~~~
overgryphon
No offense intended, but why should entry level software development jobs be
available to people without a CS skill set? Many people spend four years
studying CS specifically to earn an entry level job in software development.
Shouldn't those without a CS background spend time developing a comparable
amount of skills before expecting a software development job? Why should
candidates without a CS degree be held to a lower standard? Why would such a
candidate deserve the same opportunities as someone who did devote a
significant time to learning CS?

~~~
venturebros
Never said I was looking to be a software developer. I'm a Front-end web
developer. It's tough to get my foot into the door outside of the interactive
agency realm because most companies require 2+ years experience and some form
of testing just for a junior position.

------
idiot900
"Not a programmer? Apply."

How do you expect to turn someone into a decent programmer in five months when
they are starting from scratch?

~~~
j3
I've been teaching programming for eight years now, and I'd say "What we do
isn't that hard." If we were writing 3D game engines, yes we'd need insane
levels of math, theory, etc.

But writing web applications is mostly about following smart patterns, getting
something done, done quickly, then improving the hotspots that need it. I can
teach you to do that in five months, no problem.

Then it just takes a lifetime of practice to be, truly, good.

~~~
pixeloution
j3 is right -- developing web apps, 95% of the time, is a trade and not
something that requires a four year CS degree. I've taken several people from
scratch and taught them enough to be useful to me over a 4-5 month period;
years later some of them are holding down very highly paid web development
jobs.

------
richardburton
Well that is one way to solve the shortage of programmers. Find hungry people
and teach them to code in return for food!*

*Obviously I am kidding. This is definitely cool recruiting experiment.

------
safetyscissors
I'm gonna give this a shot. I've been worried for a while about my skills as a
developer and felt that I wasn't up to the same standard as other people (Just
like everyone I guess). I think this is a perfect avenue for anyone who wants
to get some more experience. Good luck to those entering :)

------
bdunn
Awesome idea! I'm very interested to see how this plays out, as my shop (along
with quite a few others that I'm aware of) are combating the shortage through
apprenticeship programs. This looks like to be a super-structured version of
just that.

Congrats to Chad Fowler, Jeff Casimir, and everyone else involved.

------
alexanderberman
I absolutely love this idea - a very Silicon Valley way to deal with the
shortage of quality developers!

------
cvander
I loved the program and the proposal.

As for the form, how about asking for HN users or githut accounts. They say
more than a cover letter.

And was I the only one that didn't really got excited with the video? I rather
get more leadership from the mentors when selling the idea.

~~~
j3
Check out the instructions for the application and you'll see that, if you're
a developer, we specifically ask for a project posted on Github.

Sorry you didn't dig the video. I'm happy to have one where I don't say "Damn,
I look stupid/fat/messy/blah" :)

------
daimyoyo
There's a problem in the application process that I am not sure I can
overcome. I can upload a youtube video fine, but the only camera I own takes
240p. Which I really doubt will do anything besides convince the people
running this program I'm not a good candidate. I might as well snail mail a
VHS. So, if I can get around this step, I'd love to apply(and if I'm accepted
I'd move heaven and Earth to make sure I completed the course) but the fact is
it doesn't matter how "hungry" you are if the first impression you make tells
people you don't have two nickels to rub together.

~~~
j3
Maybe a library with a webcam-equipped computer? Friend with a camera phone?
Volunteer somewhere for a few hours in exchange for using their equipment?

------
yawn
This sounds like a great opportunity--for those of us without mortgages,
families and golden handcuff salaries. If I were younger or debt-free, you
could see what someone who's hungry can accomplish.

~~~
j3
As a mortgage man and father of two, I totally agree. If you have ideas on how
we can make this work for people in your position, please let me know.

I thought about it being similar to one spouse working crazy hard while the
second goes to law school for the eventual payoff future. Five months is a lot
easier than three years, especially thinking about the $150K you'd owe.

So it's not easy, but I think it will be possible. I really hope that some
join us, because there's no one hungrier than a person working to provide for
the ones they love. Families teach you so much about work/life balance, how to
do things efficiently, and how to smile -- things I'm looking for in our
applicants.

~~~
phaus
I'm in a similar situation, but I live in the D.C. area. Even though things
would probably be tough, I plan to apply as soon as I get back home to my
computer.

------
danberger
This is the kind of site that people want to share and can go viral quite
quickly. You should add the usual suspects of share buttons: Twitter, Fb and
LinkedIn.

------
j3
I'll do my best to answer questions as they pop-up here today, but please feel
free to email me at (contact at jumpstartlab) dot com if you want to know
more.

~~~
Inufu
You mentioned that people will be payed during the training - what range are
we talking about?

About the mandatory 18 month work - how is pay worked out for that? Before
training starts?

I'm currently considering to apply, as I'm completely bored here with my CS
and Economics bachelor. (Europe) I'd love to finally have some challenge :)

~~~
j3
I don't have permission to talk specific numbers in public and it's not really
my part of the program -- but expect the during program salary to be a
reasonable living wage in our expensive city and the full post-academy salary
to be at or above other beginning developer positions.

------
idleworx
Great idea. It seems that the program is more targeted to people with little
programming experience/fresh grads/etc? (but I may be wrong since I skimmed
through the initial post).

I was wondering if you have or are planning similar programs/incentives for
developers with significant prior experience (eg 5+ years of development) but
not in the ruby/rails world who are interested in moving towards ruby/rails
development?

~~~
doktrin
Do developers with 5+ years of professional experience really need a program
like this to become proficient with RoR?

This is a genuine question and not a snide remark.

------
hexis
Assuming one made it through the 5 month training in DC and was offered a job,
would that job be based in DC or would it be remote-compatible?

~~~
j3
This detail is still under discussion, but I anticipate people will fan out to
some of the other LivingSocial offices like Seattle, Boulder, or other up-and-
coming spots.

It's unlikely that you could remote from home / some other place because we
want to keep the in-person mentorships alive.

------
sabj
Certainly a very interesting program - many props to the Living Social team
for setting this up. I'm curious about the logistics involved - both the
questions about the commitment / expectation piece, and the actual program
itself. Would be good to have some contact information on the page, or some
FAQs. But, great idea, hope it works out well and others follow!

~~~
j3
Send more details questions to hungryacademy at livingsocial dot com.

------
trifu
I know someone earlier said this program isn't available to non americans, but
is there some special policy set up for Canadians (since we're so close....and
have been bffs for so long! :D) Myself (web applications developer) and my gf
(band teacher) were thinking of throwing in an application, but if Canadians
also don't qualify then there's really no point?

------
will_lam
From a high level view, I'm totally for this idea. However, I'm skeptical of
the viability of this sort of pilot program. Having more info about the "fine
print" would be a good start.

It would be interesting to see if other companies start similar programs to
meet the short-fall of engineering talent as well.

------
maccylo
:( Darn. Too bad I'm not american. Nevertheless, good effort! Let us know how
it works out.

~~~
javadi82
Looks like the applicants can be non-american.
<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3377589>

~~~
nassosdim
Unfortunately, they can't <http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3378760>

------
FlyingTryangle
This is my fucking dream. I don't mean to sound unprofessional since I will
apply for this but in this case it is necessary to use the strongest word
available. This is what I want so badly it almost brings tears to my eye.

~~~
j3
Awesome!

------
NHQ
I already got companies trying to pay me to learn Ruby. I say no thanks!

------
somecallmediego
I'm more of a fiddler than a developer. Should I submit some basic code
sample, or would I be better off applying as a non-developer ?

~~~
j3
Go the non-developer route.

------
rdouble
When I worked at ArsDigita in 1999 we did something like this but it was only
3 weeks.

------
rookah
Why not film all the lessons? It would make the perfect X-Factor for nerds!

~~~
smountcastle
New revenue stream for LivingSocial!

------
ratzzak
Is there any such programs available online instead of attending inplace?

------
omouse
You have to go "onsite"? Which century are we living in? -_-'

------
doktrin
On a purely humorous note, did anyone else watching the video hear Chad say
that LS scales to "bazillions" or "zillions" of transactions?

edit : downvoted, really? I thought it was a funny slip

------
yayadarsh
Ah, if only this was more realistic to us full-time students out there.

Nonetheless, the concept sounds very fresh and exciting, and I hope this
spawns a Summer variant for people my age!

------
replicatorblog
j3, This is a bit of an aside, but who produced your video? It is very well
shot, In-house or a production agency?

~~~
j3
The LivingSocial in house team knocked it out in a couple hours -- they're
crazy good. I couldn't believe we used "found light" in a hallway and had
respectable results.

~~~
replicatorblog
Yeah, the lighting was what struck me. My kudos to your video team!

------
C_
Just wondering, are opportunities like this for college grads fairly common?
Either way, I love the idea.

~~~
j3
I don't think they're common, at least not in the dev world. One of my
training clients runs a six month "get familiar with the company" program
where new hires do different jobs -- it's the same spirit but totally
different intensity. Theirs is like "hey, it's better than an intership" and
ours is like "this is more valuable than college. Work hard, learn hard."

------
pitdesi
This is pretty smart recruiting by livingsocial, certainly one way to bridge
the talent shortfall, but i wonder what happens if someone wants to leave?
Will be interesting to see how it all plays out

Another similar program but without the lock-in is Code Academy
(<http://codeacademy.org>) in Chicago. It is different than hungry academy in
that you pay up front ($6k) but my understanding is that most of their
students are going to be offered a job with Groupon (where it is hosted) or
another LightBank company, but under no obligation to do it. I think some of
the current students might be starting their own companies instead.

Feefighters did a guest lecture, and i know theyve had a bunch of other a-list
guest speakers, including dhh and harper (cto for obama). I met some of the
students at an hn meetup, and they were pretty awesome, motivated and bright.

Pretty cool that both of these exist though, I think they'll continue to grow.
There are a lot of people who didnt do comp sci in school and don't want to do
it on their own

~~~
doktrin
In addition to Code Academy, there's Dev Bootcamp in SV, whose first session
is starting this spring. While it's not directly associated with a particular
company, the organizers do promise recruiting opportunities upon completion.

Count me among those who are trying to break into the industry without the
proper educational background. It's been a fun, yet often frustrating
experience (full time job, lack of time, etc.).

I was actually just speaking to a family member and bemoaning the lack of such
programs in the DC area. Very glad to see this opportunity arise, and I
certainly have my fingers crossed.

~~~
yangtheman
I would strongly urge everyone to look at Dev Bootcamp very carefully. Someone
from there posted on SF Ruby Meetup mailing list, asking for someone to help
out with the training (for free) while the program charges pretty large amount
of cash to students. The worse was how the person wrote the message - about
how it would be giving back to community, etc. while they themselves would be
making handsome money and/or profit.

Just be careful before you sign up.

~~~
dcalhoun
I will have to disagree with you here. The program charges the same rate as
the Code Academy school and what's more, you don't have to pay up front
(unlike CA), but can choose to pay in installments over two or five years.
Furthermore, if you let them find you a job upon graduation, they will use
their recruitment fee to refund you the cost of your tuition. This suggests to
me that they are certainly not just out to make a quick buck.

It remains to be seen whether the program will create employable graduates,
and a level of skepticism is healthy in any situation, but I think your
characterization of the program may be a bit pessimistic.

------
mkramlich
anytime you make it easier to do a thing, or lower the bar a person must meet,
there are consequences, not all of them good.

------
dragthor
Who do these people think they are?!?!

