
US Customs block Canadian man after reading his Scruff profile - rublev
http://www.dailyxtra.com/canada/news-and-ideas/news/us-customs-block-canadian-man-reading-scruff-profile-215531
======
kennywinker
Everyone proposing clever technical solutions. Burner phones and encrypted
cloud data etc... you are solving the wrong problem. Instead of engineering a
way for the few people who care deeply to avoid this at great effort, engineer
a way for this to not be legal. Write your congressperson, donate time and
money to political parties, make privacy at the border for ALL (not just
citizens) a priority in every election.

~~~
mc32
I can see members of congress agreeing to privacy right at the border for
citizens --only a very few would support the same for non-citizens, even Dems.
There is no political upside to that position and it serves a very small
percentage of Americans, indirectly, so, that's not going to fly.

~~~
abandonliberty
You're mostly right.

At some point these experiences may affect tourism, business, and desirable
immigration.

But it's probably too distant of an effect to have that much political
capital.

~~~
davedx
Yeah, who cares about business, tourism and desirable immigration? None of
those things are worth much to the US economy I guess.

(Our family was seriously considering a touring camper holiday to the US in a
year or two. Now: no way in hell.)

~~~
smsm42
Unless it causes a very noticeable drop in tourism - not on anecdotal level,
but on the level of millions - about 70M tourists visit US yearly, so to make
noticeable change, it probably should be like 10M at least - there will be no
change. Note that there are literally millions of citizens who don't get a
dime from tourists, don't care too much about tourists, but worry a lot about
(real or imagined) threat of terrorism. They'd kick out any politician they
perceive soft on border security faster than you can say "TSA".

~~~
vinay427
The difference is that just about everyone in the US actually is positively
affected by tourists (tax dollars) but not affected by terrorism (very low
incidence of terrorism in the US). I'm not sure where the millions of
Americans who don't get a dime from tourists exist.

~~~
yourapostasy
The US is a sufficiently large enough domestic population that it self-
generates and self-fulfills most of its tourism market. I was surprised myself
when I looked up how lopsided it is. Similar can probably be said of China,
EU, and perhaps Africa in a couple decades.

Overseas arrivals to the US is tracked in [1].

Domestic tourism represented 96.7% of the annual market in 2013. [2]

In the context of this thread's discussion of overseas visitors avoiding the
US and its knock-on effects upon the US tourism industry, if overseas visitors
100% disappeared tomorrow, it wouldn't be a rounding error, but according to
these statistics it's definitely not the political-economic club it's made out
to be in these discussions. For better or worse, it is up to US citizens to
vote in any changes in border control service delivery standards.

For what it's worth, many of the procedures I've heard people complain about
have some basis in reasoning lurking in the background. International transits
(where you land in a US airport but go onwards to a different country, never
once stepping foot onto non-airport soil) requiring a security re-screening is
explained in some places [3]. The cost to Americans getting People's Republic
of China (PRC) visas traces back to diplomatic tit-for-tat, as PRC citizens
visiting the US pay similar fees. Many security industry observers admire
Israel's airport security, yet discussions like this thread neglect to mention
Israeli border control also demands social network and email credentials, and
the US is singled out for adopting an Israeli practice, when just scant few
years ago the US agencies were excoriated for being too unenlightened to adopt
Israeli practices [4].

Where I see room for improvement is service delivery, and education of
citizens might help, while increased focus upon anchoring the mobility of
capital to mobility of labor will definitely help. I've had my share of visa
issues traveling into Canada as a US citizen, but the staff were unfailingly
polite while still being hard-nosed, while I hear of other US citizens getting
hassled at the Canadian border. I've had minor snafus in border crossings into
Mexico and the PRC as well, and I was treated politely there, too. My attitude
in all of these interactions was, "Ah, sorry I made your day harder just now,
what can I learn about what I missed with regards to the policy so I don't
make the same mistake again, what is the rough, overall process and timeline
to fix it this time around, and what is the detailed next action item
(who/where/what/how)?" This has never failed to elicit the officer politely,
sometimes gladly, assisting me, so maybe this helps others. YMMV, of course.

[1]
[http://travel.trade.gov/research/monthly/arrivals/index.asp](http://travel.trade.gov/research/monthly/arrivals/index.asp)

[2] [http://www.eturbonews.com/53328/research-domestic-tourism-
si...](http://www.eturbonews.com/53328/research-domestic-tourism-
significantly-dominates-us-tourism-mar)

[3] [https://www.quora.com/Airports-Why-do-you-have-to-go-
through...](https://www.quora.com/Airports-Why-do-you-have-to-go-through-
security-again-when-you-have-a-connecting-flight)

[4] [https://www.quora.com/Is-it-justifiable-for-the-Ben-
Gurion-a...](https://www.quora.com/Is-it-justifiable-for-the-Ben-Gurion-
airport-security-to-ask-you-for-your-e-mail-and-Facebook-credentials)

------
system16
After many unpleasant dealings with US Customs, I avoid flying to or through
the US completely even if it costs me more.

The last time I flew from Canada to Singapore through the US, the US Customs
officer - on Canadian soil - was hostile, asked me numerous questions about my
travel, itinerary, who I was intending to meet, and my personal finances.

When I questioned if all this was necessary as I'm not even traveling to the
US, he became agitated and threatened "You know I could stop your trip right
here? I might not be convinced you'll actually transfer on your next flight or
leave the US."

After scowling at his screen for a while, he finally scoffed, slammed my
passport on the counter and said "Go." I guess he felt he had shown his power
enough.

It was extremely stressful and humiliating, and I vowed never to subject
myself to it again. FWIW, I'm a caucasian, middle-class Canadian IT nerd. I
can only imagine what others who meet their "profile" go through.

~~~
bruceb
This is part of the problem, not the questions but the attitude. I can
understand them asking questions, they have a short time to figure out if the
traveler might be "up to no good". That is no reason to ask questions in way
that attacks a person. Ask all the questions you want just don't be
terrorizing jerk about it.

Now one instance can be chalked up to a bad apple but over and over again I
have heard stories like this and experienced on multiple occasions.

Canadian customs officers may ask questions but they are generally not in a
abusive tone.

~~~
techdragon
Isn't the point of the giant world wide surveillance apparatus run by the NSA,
etc. meant to let them know this sort of thing _before_ they even buy a ticket
for a plane trip?

I know I'm being purposefully naive in saying this, but why pay for something
that's not working?

~~~
smsm42
You can't really find out in advance if someone intends to overstay their visa
by surveillance. Surveillance is not magic, and mass surveillance has a
problem of collecting huge mass of junk, and no agency, even NSA, would have
resources to sift through this junk enough to find trivial matters like intent
to overstay visa, even if that information actually was there. Surveillance
may be useful to detect highly anomalous behavior, or to detect connections
between people (e.g. is Mr. X connected to known terrorist Mr. Z?) but I don't
see how it can be useful in trivial matters like immigration enforcement.

------
NamTaf
Over the last few years I've gone from wanting to visit the US and planning it
as one of the next few holidays I'd like to do, to wanting to visit the US but
holding off until 'later', to now simply not wanting to visit due to these
sort of policies and actions at the border.

It's a shame; US citizens are generally lovely people, the US natural
environment is beautiful and, hell, the US makes killer craft beers that I'd
love to drink my way through. However, there's enough other destinations
around the world to keep me busy so that I don't have to possibly subject
myself to this sort of treatment, and therefore I'll visit them instead.

~~~
te_chris
Go to NZ. Natural wonder of the world and the craft beer is killer. You'll
thank me.

~~~
superfad
They will be asking for passwords in NZ too before too long by the sound of
it.

[https://nzccl.org.nz/content/customs-able-demand-
unlockpassw...](https://nzccl.org.nz/content/customs-able-demand-
unlockpasswords-border)

Plus there is what happened to Sam Blackman

[http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objecti...](http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11171475)

------
Mikeb85
In the US right now visiting, am Canadian. Was a pain, was held up over an
hour at the border (via land). Apparently they don't believe there's any
reason for a Canadian to visit the US as a tourist, we only want to work
illegally (they're partially right, only came to visit family, our national
parks are nicer).

Also, based on my family members' experiences of working in the US, it's
easier to work illegally than to immigrate legally. And hard to be a tourist
apparently. You guys have your priorities all backwards - should be easy to
visit, hard to work illegally, and somewhere in the middle to immigrate
legally.

~~~
smsm42
The problem is it's very easy to make entering the country hard for legal
immigrants and tourists - you just make tons of strict rules, tell border
control to enforce them vigorously and voila! But it's much harder to crack
down on illegal immigration, since by definition they won't follow laws and
rules.

You'll need to spend a lot of money and effort on finding them and getting
them out, on enforcing eligibility checks at workplaces, etc. And face very
strong political opposition - since it's one thing just not to let the person
in and very different thing to uproot a person who already has been in for a
while, got some local contacts, established themselves, etc.

Now add people that oppose virtually any immigration enforcement for political
reasons, and you've got the situation US is now in - there are about 10M
illegal immigrants, about 1M have final deportation orders (which mean the
state ordered them to leave now, all process, appeals, etc. have been
exhausted) and ICE has in custody about 12K (yes, 12K out of 1M), where are
the rest - nobody knows and nobody will know.

~~~
bb611
Yes, there's strong political opposition to immigration enforcement, but
there's also strong opposition to illegal work enforcement.

[https://www.nytimes.com/2017/02/09/us/california-farmers-
bac...](https://www.nytimes.com/2017/02/09/us/california-farmers-backed-trump-
but-now-fear-losing-field-workers.html?_r=0)

If anyone were serious about this problem, E-verify would be in force
everywhere and the working population that supports 12M undocumented
immigrants would be out of work tomorrow, and out of the country the next day.

~~~
smsm42
The article makes very little sense. Trump's orders were about a) limiting
immigrants and refugees from Syria, Iraq, Sudan, etc. and b) removal of
criminal illegal aliens (of which for vast majority of them ICE has no idea
where they are so it's as useful as ordering the sun to raise of the west).
But field workers are predominantly Mexican or Latin American, and vast
majority of them do not commit any crimes except possibly illegal entry or
visa overstay. So what's the connection with Trump orders?

~~~
bb611
The article's premise is that most people thought Trump was bluffing/lying
about barring Muslims, as well as about increasing deportation of undocumented
workers. These executive orders proved Trump was serious about Muslims, and
the NY Times simply found people who then realized that he probably is serious
about undocumented workers as well.

Basically all the fears in this article were realized with the DHS
announcements yesterday: [https://www.wsj.com/articles/trump-immigrant-
crackdown-worri...](https://www.wsj.com/articles/trump-immigrant-crackdown-
worries-food-and-restaurant-industries-1487799016)

------
fulafel
Argh, you couldn't invent this kafkaesque stuff:

"When he went through secondary inspection at Vancouver airport, US Customs
officers didn’t even need to ask for his passwords — they were saved in their
own system."

"They said, ‘Next time you come through, don’t have a cleared phone,’ and that
was it. I wasn’t let through. "

\--

I know that US/Canada privacy laws might not give people protection in this
situations, but what about universal human rights? UN Declaration of Human
Rights and other binding international agreements recognize the right to
privacy.

~~~
krushing
And, of course, the United States is based on the concept of natural rights.
Hence the Bill of Rights saying, "Congress shall may no law".

Americans 4th Amendment right wasn't created by the 4th Amendment, but merely
acknowledged by it. All human beings have an inherent right to privacy -- to
suggest otherwise as a US citizen is self-contradictory.

~~~
smsm42
The problem is no human beings except US citizens have the inherent right to
enter US. So you can easily refuse to surrender your privacy - and they can as
easily to deny you entry to the US. Unless, of course, you are a citizen -
then they'd make it suck as much as they legally and semi-legally can but
eventually they'd have to let you in.

------
danm07
I'm Canadian running a company in California, and every time I cross the
border, I get pulled into the office for an hour.

There was one time last year where I got detained for 8 because they didn't
believe that a college dropout could run a company, even calling me "full of
shit" at one point. They had my computer and went through my email one by one
asking me to cite specific dates of employment at 3am in the morning.

They ultimately rejected me on the basis that I got one of the dates wrong.
Can't say I've ever had a good experience with any US customs official.

~~~
mdekkers
Why run a company in California?

~~~
zerr
Not sure about the OPs case, but usually it is when you care about investors'
money more than the company/product.

~~~
cfabbro
Apropos that you're saying that on a social media platform run by a Venture
Capital company out of Mountain View but your statement is a pretty damn
cynical view of it. California may the epicenter of tech related VC but it's
also the startup and tech company capital for plenty of other reasons besides
VC such as the amazing local culture, awesome weather, friendly legal
environment (e.g. CA's strong anti-SLAPP laws), experienced local hiring pool,
state & municipal tax benefits, etc.

------
xroche
Beyond the obvious privacy issue, there is a more general worrying pattern
here. The fact we give mediocre, frustrated, under-waged people, some power,
with minimum control. This is not a condescending remark, and I truly think
the root of all these incidents (and this also include other abuse of power)
lies here. Think of sadistic guards in prison, think of police officers coldly
killing black teens. These all are patterns where mediocre and frustrated
people have finally a chance to get a revenge on their meaningless life by
using the only relevant element they have: their power.

~~~
yestoallthat
I'd say that goes all the way to the top, and " _get a revenge on their
meaningless life by using the only relevant element they have: their power_ "
holds true right to the zenith of current power structures. Which is not to
disagree, or to take away from the fact that in the end, there's rarely
abusers who aren't also victims. Just beating on them, whether poor goons or
rich goons, doesn't help. Nor does just pleading. Respectfully establishing
boundaries does, but that requires cooperation of all the environment.

------
coldcode
Do not visit the US under any circumstances, especially now. Until our tourism
companies like Disney feel the pain and start losing massive amounts of money
nothing will change. You can talk to your Senators until you are blue in the
face and it won't change squat. But some rich company pissed off at losing
money who will not give the Senator money any more will be listened to. Money
moves politicians, regular people are unlikely to.

------
FusilliGary
Can we acknowledge that this specific event happened last October, before
Trump was elected? I am 100% not a Trump supporter, but the article is
definitely trying to have people infer that it has to do with Trump's travel
ban when it does not.

~~~
briandear
Correct -- there have also been a lot of disingenuous stories about record
numbers of overseas Americans renouncing citizenship.. yet that trend began
due to FATCA which was passed by Democrats in 2010. The renunciations started
to spike once the impact of that law was felt by overseas Americans and so-
called 'accidental' Americans (automatic Americans at birth but no connection
to the US.)

There are a lot of these stories that are suddenly making the mainstream press
-- the stories themselves are true, but the "why write this now" aspect is
clearly an attempt to imply that these issues are Trump inspired when they
have been anything but.

And example of this are all of the deportion stories -- the Obama admin had
fairly aggressive deportation enforcement, but they didn't inspire protests
because Obama isn't Trump.

Even the framing of the stories is suspect: "Muslim Ban" for example -- yet
85% of the world's Muslims were unaffected and not a single religion was named
in the text of the executive order. Don't misunderstand -- I don't support
national origin bans either, but the media framing is definitely designed not
to inform people -- but to provoke.

The fact that this story is appearing now when the incident happened 5 months
ago is extremely suspect -- it fits a crafted narrative that Trump is anti-gay
or whatever he's supposedly 'anti' this week.

~~~
vinay427
It isn't a national origin ban if it only covers Muslim-majority countries
with a priority process for religious minorities:

> "to prioritize refugee claims made by individuals on the basis of religious-
> based persecution, provided that the religion of the individual is a
> minority religion in the individual's country of nationality."

I wouldn't go as far as to say that it's a ban on Muslims, but it
strategically bans (arbitrary groups of) Muslims. Also, if we're going to talk
about portrayals, it's worth reminding readers that the countries on the list
(Trump signed it, not Obama) have not historically been sources of terrorists.

~~~
dingaling
The countries on the list date from 2016. No President "signed it", it was
established and extended by DHS and State Dept as part of Visa controls.

The EO extended those controls from "no waiver, manual review" to "no access"

~~~
vinay427
I mean that Trump signed the order knowing the countries on the list,
regardless of when and by whom the list was created.

------
inlined
> US Customs officers didn’t even need to ask for his passwords — they were
> saved in their own system

This is also horrifying. So there's a government database of plaintext
passwords and a massive body of people have legitimate access?

~~~
piotrkaminski
OTOH, not changing all your passwords after having to divulge them under
duress is pretty careless, too.

~~~
tempestn
True, but it'd be especially painful if you use a password manager. Presumably
they're going to demand the master password, so you're left changing
everything.

If you were dealing with a reasonable system, a compromise might be to unlock
the accounts for them (without them seeing the password) and allow them to
review the contents in your presence. That way you know exactly what they've
seen, and that they're not holding onto anything, but they should still be
able to do any necessary screening. Unfortunately the system appears to be
weighted rather more toward maximum intimidation than reasonableness.

~~~
literallycancer
>True, but it'd be especially painful if you use a password manager.
Presumably they're going to demand the master password, so you're left
changing everything.

So you have to change everything + the master password, that is 1 more than
you would have to change, had you not used it. Without a password manager, you
could just give them the passwords they wanted, if you remember 20+ different
random passwords. Otherwise you are reusing your passwords and so have to
change most of them anyway.

>If you were dealing with a reasonable system

That this could seriously be described as "reasonable" shows just how much
things went wrong.

~~~
tempestn
I use a password manager and certainly wouldn't stop because of this, but no,
without one you only have to change the passwords you give them. That would be
a handful of passwords to SM accounts and such. If I give them my master
password I have to change ALL my passwords. I have several hundred passwords
stored.

And yes, I agree that having to show border guards your facebook account isn't
ideal. It's a hell of a lot more reasonable than just giving them all your
passwords and having them run rampant through your digital life without your
even knowing what they've done or seen though.

------
dvcrn
As a engineer, I was quite curious to visit the US and maybe even consider it
as a destination for working, but that was before I knew all the things that
are going on there like problems with visas, racism (police shooting people
without any repercussions), internet privacy, gun control and, yes, the border
control.

Currently, I have absolutely no intention of even flying through the US. The
only reason I could imagine doing it is if I were to have a onsite interview
at some companies headquarters; or if I through some miracle get tickets for
I/O or WWDC. That would be about it. And if I get a ticket, I would now have
to think about a plan how I could keep my data safe while still taking my
phone/laptop with me. It's a shame really.

(Unrelated side story: I am a frequent traveller and invested good money into
a nice robust trunk. I usually have the PIN lock on it with the normal TSA key
thing for them to open it. I took it to a dozen countries and never had any
problems, but at the first time through the US it got directly broken open
(despite TSA lock), my stuff left in a messy state and I got the usual paper
notice about a TSA inspection. Now I can't close the trunk correctly anymore
and will probably have to buy a new one. Booh.)

~~~
DINKDINK
>racism (police shooting people without any repercussions)

US police have always been shooting/killing citizens (mainly political out
groups) without repercussions. The difference now is that documentation of
such acts is easily accessible for large portions of the population and the
information is extraordinarily easy to be decimated.

------
lacampbell
I'd love to visit the United States, but this is just creepy. I don't even
give my family passwords. Not worth visiting on my own dime if I'll just be
turned back for refusing to comply.

~~~
vogt
I've recently relocated to Washington state and am close to the Canadian
border. I thought about driving a few hours to check out the sights in BC and
satisfy a many years long Tim Horton's drought this weekend (I'm originally
from New England where we had Tim's for a brief shining moment in time), but
decided against it after reading a plethora of instances online where Canadian
authorities have done the same to people at the border.

I figure if I don't get the runaround on the way in, I'll get it on the way
back. Sad, but not worth the trouble.

~~~
aanm1988
I've found the Canadian guards meaner, and I'm a Canadian citizen.

~~~
vogt
On either side, the worst part is, I don't have anything to hide. I just don't
want anyone digging through my personal messages or photos etc just because
they can. I'm not a criminal, nor do I have any criminal history, I pay my
taxes and all that other good stuff you check off a list when you go on a rant
like this. Someday maybe I'll have a reason to fly in. For the interim, I
remain maple dip-less.

------
sneak
I get detained and harassed at every single border crossing into the US, and I
am a citizen—simply for having on several occasions many years ago asserted my
5th amendment rights at the border.

Non-US people traveling with me have been denied entry after being sent to
secondary for refusing to unlock their devices (the only reason they were sent
to secondary and the unlock demand made was because they were traveling with
me, a known fifth-amendment-user).

US CBP are total scumbags. I've had lower level CBP insult the country in
which I live, unbidden, in response to my plain, unadorned factual responses
to questioning about where I live and what I do there, in what appeared to be
self-reassurance about the USA's number one status. Both me and a female
partner have had our genitals groped as punitive response to our refusals to
unlock our phones.

The sooner we can drive this issue to a head and get all these pigs out on the
street looking for new jobs, the better.

~~~
cryoshon
>The sooner we can drive this issue to a head and get all these pigs out on
the street looking for new jobs, the better.

hear hear.

------
ohstopitu
I've always wanted to visit the US. I grew up in India and UAE and viewed US
as the ultimate place to be. It was my lifelong dream to get a job and settle
in the US (and have an American way of life).

The more time goes by, the more the US is moving away from that pedestal I had
put it on.(privacy is getting eroded, cops are killing people, the govt. does
not trust it's own citizens etc. - and no it's got nothing to do with Trump,
this was happening before Trump too - doubt if he'll make it better).

Even now, US still has a lot of ideals I consider dear, but man, they are
making it hard for me to even visit the country (wanted to have an all-over-US
driving trip when I get my car - but I doubt if that's happening considering
recent news)

~~~
TACIXAT
Don't let the doomsayers dissuade you. Life is still very good here. Violent
crime is near record lows. The air is much cleaner in cities than it used to
be. You can find amazing salaries. We are making progress on social issues
with same-sex marriage being a legal right.

I have the ability to move anywhere in the world and, all things considered,
I'm staying in the US. It is not without it's problems, as you mention,
privacy and a militarized police force are high on the list, but also keep in
mind the positives. I think they still outweigh the negatives by a lot.

------
confounded
There needs to be some reasonable way to get your digital life into an E2E
encrypted cloud, wipe your devices, fly into the police state you call home,
and get setup again when you land. You can promise at the border that your
head doesn't contain anything either.

I get very worried about traveling with an object as alien and shiny as a
Yubikey. I don't know how I'd explain it to an aneurism in a Kevlar vest
without triggering them with words like "encryption".

~~~
coin
> wipe your devices

But then you risk:

> They said, ‘Next time you come through, don’t have a cleared phone,’

~~~
andrewflnr
Quite. Once you have such an E2E encrypted cloud, the next step is to simply
not bring your device over the border, but rather buy/rent one in the country
you arrived in and load your stuff on that one. The only problem is finding
hardware you can sort of trust.

~~~
sneak
My phone almost always costs around a thousand dollars, roughly the amount the
guy persecuted by the CBP was complaining about losing on flights.

It's also instrumental for getting me from the airport I land at to my hotel,
as well as remembering the name and address of the hotel I need to travel to
from the airport.

I would do what you suggest but a) the Apple store isn't always open when I
land, and b) I have no way of summoning a non-taxi to get there (or to where I
am sleeping).

~~~
tempestn
And besides, it still wouldn't help. They could hand you a device and tell you
to log into your social media accounts. If you say you don't have the
passwords because of whatever technical measures you cooked up to make them
temporarily inaccessible, you're back to, "Don't do that next time. You're not
entering today."

~~~
dromen
What if you don't have social media accounts?

Reports like this tend to trigger a Google search for my own name and
correspondence with all sites that show up, "please delete all my shit".

Finally deleted my Facebook account last week, too.

Maybe we need a religion that forbids using social media, or more broadly,
your real identity online?

~~~
theandrewbailey
> Maybe we need a religion that forbids using social media, or more broadly,
> your real identity online?

Good idea. You'll get bonus social points for being a persecuted religious
minority when you're turned away and it's publicized.

------
megous
I guess this does it for me. America might be interesting to me as a tourist,
but the idea that some schmuck on the border would turn me back for some
ridiculous reason, humiliating me in the process, all that while erasing a
significant portion of my life savings... (because they charge the airlines
some ridiculous fine which would in turn try to force it down on me) blah. Not
worth the risk at all.

------
kalleboo
The U.S. is the only country I've visited where immigration asked me a trick
question. Not the kind of mental gymnastics you want to be doing after a 14
hour flight. I'm lucky I caught it.

~~~
robteix
I'm curious, what was the question?

~~~
kalleboo
"When was the last time you entered the country? <I answer> And that was the
time you went over the land border? <no, I flew in that time>"

------
rasengan0
How much does privacy cost?

More stories like this read like a reason for a privacy startup as policy is
not changing anytime soon...

[http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/eric-
schmidt/10076175/...](http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/eric-
schmidt/10076175/Eric-Schmidt-interview-You-have-to-fight-for-your-privacy-or-
you-will-lose-it.html)

4 yrs ago? “You have to fight for your privacy, or you will lose it,” Schmidt
insists.

------
Canada
I'm always nervous entering the US and Canada. My declarations are always
proper, and I carry nothing I'd be upset to have searched. The feeling is just
anchored. I get searched a lot and then let go. Waste of time for all
concerned.

I hate the airport security checkpoints too. I'm worried something of mine
will be stolen if I get separated from it. For anyone else who feels this way,
a good tip for US travel is to opt-out of those body scanners. It will take
you a bit of extra time to get through, but the TSA will get your stuff from
the xray and put it in a separate area, and they will always put on new gloves
before touching it. They do this not out of basic respect but because they're
going to test their gloves for explosives or something, but I'll take what I
can get.

~~~
sergers
I am Canadian born citizen who does most of work remotely with US companies.

A couple times a year I have to go-to US.

I am only traveling g for work, carrying nothing illegal and never done
anything illegal in the US... Yet I get anxiety the US border agents are going
to hassle me.

By the time I get up to US customs preclearance I am nervous and the agent
thinks I am on something.

This leads to more questioning.

However by the end my nerves have calmed and I make it through every time.

I just say I hate to fly, and going through customs thinking they out to get
me.

Usually CBP officer will say I should find another profession, or there is
medication that can help.

\--

5 years ago on a personal trip shopping with the wife in the US via car, we
came back to Canada without buying anything in 3 hours cause I got in a
argument with my wife.

Canadian border pulled us inside. They couldn't believe I didn't buy anything
and I must be doing something nefarious. Agents questioned my wife if she knew
my whereabouts the whole trip... Asked her how well she knew me

They took my wallet and wiped down every surface, card, with the agent telling
me to speak up now cause the machine is going to tell them. 5 minutes later
the agent comes back and throws my wallet on the table and tells us we can
leave.

I avoid traveling cause it's a hassle, and stressful just going through
customs borders, mainly now only travel on work trips when I have to.

------
icefo
That's sad. I really want visit the US and see some national parks but the
more I see stories like that the less I want to go. I hope it will be better
in 5-6 years because I don't want to invent a plausible second life just to go
through the border...

~~~
mc32
This occurred in October, under Obama, so even if the dems were to win next
cycle, there is little hope for the change you seem to be going for.

~~~
TillE
"The Dems" as represented by Obama/Clinton are essentially a dead party.
_Some_ kind of radical change is going to happen, or they'll wither into
nothing. They're not going to win in 2020 on Obama policies.

------
everythingspun
This happened under Obama.

~~~
muzz
It happened in December. What is the relevance of who was President at the
time?

~~~
JumpCrisscross
At least in New York, there are many Democrats campaigning on an anti-Trump
platform. They use stories like this to justify their candidacy. Recognising
that they did nothing about these issues is informative for primary
coördination and voting.

~~~
grzm
What's your take on the story?

~~~
JumpCrisscross
It shows a hole in our rule of law. There's a case in front of SCOTUS,
_Hernández vs. Mesa_ , exploring the Constitutional protection of foreign
nationals at the U.S. border [1]. In 2010, an unarmed fifteen-year-old Mexican
boy was shot in the head by a U.S. Border Patrol agent. The boy was in a
culvert jointly patrolled by the U.S. and Mexico, but officially, the agent
was in the United States and the boy in Mexico.

This more proximate story profiles a single U.S. Customers and Border
Protection agent traversing the personal and sensitive data of a minority (by
sexual orientation) citizen of a friendly nation. The agent wields sole and
arbitrary power to detain, question, seize and arrest. And he does so with
impunity. (Our government declined to prosecute Jesus Mesa, Jr., from
_Hernández vs. Mesa_ , despite him having made up claims of the victim
throwing rocks at him, later disproven.)

We're on Hacker News, so instead of depressed drivel I'll suggest a solution.
We need legal insurance for the U.S. border crossing. Get extrajudicially
harassed by a numpty? Your monthly fee covers a competent lawyer. (Maybe use
the AirHelp model [2]--you only pay if they succeed.) We also need rapid data
exfiltration and reintroduction techniques. Wiping my iPhone and Mac,
traversing the border, and then hoping my Internet on the other side is fast
(and secure) enough to reload my apps and data within a day isn't reasonable.

[1] [http://www.scotusblog.com/wp-
content/uploads/2015/10/Cross-b...](http://www.scotusblog.com/wp-
content/uploads/2015/10/Cross-border-shooting-petition.pdf)

[2] [https://www.airhelp.com/en/](https://www.airhelp.com/en/)

~~~
caf
What I don't understand in the Hernández case is why Mesa apparently hasn't
been investigated/charged by the Mexican authorities?

~~~
mike_o
He has. The US refused to extradite him.

------
dbg31415
Here's what I want:

A way to hit a button and have the contents of my laptop or phone encrypted
locally, shipped off to some secure cloud storage, and then purged from my
laptop. I'll take the empty device through. I can just tell them that it's a
gift for a friend, or something work asked me to bring over to a co-worker.
Then when I'm on the other side, I hit the button... download, decrypt, and
restore my stuff -- then wipe it from the cloud.

Anyone who makes this service, I'll gladly pay you $100 per use.

(Dear BackBlaze... I know you're close, just build out the UX and automation a
bit better.)

It sucks, but I guess I'll just take an old phone and tell them I'm planning
on getting a SIM card when I land... I only really need it for finding my way
around anyway. I can FedEx my laptop and have it waiting for me. But what a
pain in the ass all of this is.

~~~
fortytw2
this doesn't help at all - in this scenario, if a gov't body wants you data,
they lock you up in some room and beat you until you give them all of the
passwords to the encrypted data...

~~~
gspetr
I'm not sure I read the parent same way you did. What he proposed is a way to
circumvent border data check by having no data on your devices during that
time. If there's no encrypted data then device passwords will do nothing for
them.

~~~
macintux
Did you fail to notice that the 2nd time the Canadian tried to visit he was
turned away because he had no data on his phone?

~~~
dbg31415
So throw the phone in a gift box and tell them you're bringing it to a friend
who lost theirs because of the exchange rate. Plausible deniability, right?
Throw your SIM card into an old Nokia 3310 if you're worried about them
thinking you don't have a working phone...

------
KKKKkkkk1
The Bill of Rights says that the government is not allowed to conduct
unreasonable search and seizure. This applies to all people, not just to US
citizens. Unfortunately, when you are a noncitizen at at a port of entry, the
Bill of Rights is effectively a dead letter.

~~~
mistermann
That goes for citizens within <x> miles of the border as well does it not?

~~~
fictioncircle
Yes, at a border checkpoint run by CBP.

They don't get to like go to your house and "investigate".

------
ensignavenger
From the article: André says. “He came back and just started grilling me. ‘Is
this your email?’ and it was an email attached to a Craigslist account for sex
ads. He asked me, ‘Is this your account on Scruff? Is this you on BBRT?’ I was
like, ‘Yes, this is me.’”

I am no fan of CBP, but the guy apparently admitted to placing sex ads on
Craiglist. The article doesn't state what the ads said... but depending on
their content, it may be reasonable to suspect him of prostitution... an
argument could be made that it shouldn't matter, and I don't think CBP should
be demanding passwords like this, but the denial may not have been so absurd
as the article would like you to think.

------
tomlock
This sounds incredibly embarassing, and even as a US citizen makes me fear
travelling to America.

~~~
brynx97
The best way to approach any and all of this is to be prepared. Go into the
checkpoints with all your items properly separated to efficiently take stuff
out, put them into the bins, and then pick them up.

NYT recently did a piece of this I liked, which reported that 0.0012% of
arrivals had electronic devices inspected in 2015 [1]. Also, EFF has regular
blogs or new stories published on border crossing privacy issues, which this
post triggered me to check for updates [2].

[1] [https://www.nytimes.com/2017/02/14/business/border-
enforceme...](https://www.nytimes.com/2017/02/14/business/border-enforcement-
airport-phones.html)

[2] [https://www.eff.org/issues/border-
searches](https://www.eff.org/issues/border-searches)

------
pasbesoin
Remember when they needed access to our electronic devices only in "very
limited cases" and then only "because terrorism"?

These "officials" are destroying their own credibility.

------
bnj
US Customs is sad that it missed a chance to start it's own version of
facebook and now wants to recoup their opportunity by strongly encouraging
everyone to sign up when they travel.

------
lstroud
When will people understand that the internet has been legally deemed public.
What you say will be in the public and won't go away. You have a right to say
what you want, but don't expect people to ignore your words.

------
RileyJames
For online accounts (ignoring devices that you can physically access) what
happens when the account is in your name, but you do not have access to it?

Ie: Hugh Jackman has an Instagram account, but it may be run by his PR team.
He doesn't hold the password to it, and depending on the contract terms, may
have no capacity to order his PR firm to provide it.

Non-celebrities could start structuring their online identities in a similar
manner, as separate legal entities that afford them (as an individual entity)
limited rights.

The border guards could still reject your entry tho.

~~~
tempestn
> The border guards could still reject your entry tho.

And that's the problem. Any steps you go to to make your data more secure are
just going to make it more likely.

------
sand500
Is a new thing? Is everyone trying to enter the country now suddenly getting
all their electronic profiles and devices searched? I don't remember this
being a problem a couple years ago.

~~~
OliverJones
No, it is not a new thing.

The US immigration police have behaved like this for decades now. My dad was a
US Foreign Service officer. I remember, vaguely, waiting for over an hour in
1962 at Idlewild Airport (now called JFK) in New York while the passport
control people questioned him about our passports. They were slightly
different from ordinary passports because they said "US diplomatic passport"
in the usual gold leaf on the cover, and they were a different color.

The staff there, I suppose, didn't recognize them and thought they were fake.
They held us until some supervisor told them to let us go.

Is the ignorance and arrogance of US passport control staff worse now?
Probably.

Are other countries getting worse? Yes. That's a standard diplomatic
technique, dating from the cold war, called "tit-for-tat." If country A gives
country B's nationals a hard time, country B does the same to country A.

I don't have twitter, FB, or linkedIn accounts. But I suppose they'll find me
here on HN.

------
reacharavindh
This is just outrageous. So not having the identifiable social accounts that
the customs officer knows will go against someone getting into the country? No
Facebook, No Twitter, No Scruff, No popular networks. What do I do? Write a
bot that posts non political stuff to social profiles created just to please
these guys? Great times we live. Too much freedom in the land of the brave!

Ironically, sharing this article on social media would also be considered a
red flag I suppose.

------
throwrapgod3480
For travel:

\- Travel with wiped devices with a cloud backup.

\- Restore from backup when you reach your destination.

\- You _could_ be compelled to give up your cloud login, (since you'll have to
know the password in your head) so have a fake one available for plausible
deniability.

\- Your (real) backup needs: browser, password safe, system patches, system
hardening. Anything else should likely be delegated to installing from a
script, Ansible, etc, after the fact. This helps minimize history and other
private information you could carry around (just in case they DO get your real
login).

\- Not sure if necessary, as I haven't heard stories by border agents to give
up email passwords, but an extra email address for plausible deniability can't
hurt.

\- All (other) passwords should be stored in a password safe, so you can't be
compelled to give them those passwords, since you have no idea what they are
anyway.

\- Passwords should always be generated and be as long as possible for a
particular service.

\- Usernames should always be generated and unique.

\- Don't use services that restrict password lengths to 20 or less characters.

\- Don't use services with a known history of hacks or leaks (i'm looking at
you Yahoo/Target).

All that said, it's pretty terrible that joe user will need to know this
information just to travel. I doubt many are technically capable of executing
on the above strategies. Even software engineers are unlikely to have such due
diligence.

------
stuaxo
For a while now, I've not wanted to go through the US border as it seems like
there is a collective madness taken hold.

This confirms things further. It's a shame, I'd like to visit some places in
the US.

Even though my email is full of mundane things, I'm really uncomfortable with
giving the password to some unaccountable bureaucrat.

There's also the weirdly puritanical aspect, they were obsessed with the idea
he was a sex worker and blocked him for that reason.

------
turc1656
"A non-American who is asked to hand over their devices and passwords is faced
with the dilemma of protecting their privacy or potentially being denied entry
to the US."

Odds are that if DHS or CBP agents ask any non-citizen for the ability to
search their devices that person isn't getting let into the country no matter
what and the agents are just looking for evidence to validate whatever
suspicion they have. This guy was selected for secondary inspection. Now I'm
not sure if that selection was random or if it was pre-determined for when he
showed up at the airport. If it was pre-determined and he was flagged for
inspection, there's very little chance he's getting through at all. If it was
random and he declined to give them the passwords to search his devices, the
agents might have no choice but to allow him through since there is no cause
for suspicion. I'm not really sure what the law is in this regard or the
DHS/CBP policies.

That being said, in almost any scenario it seems the best course of action is
not to comply because you think that if you do they are going to let you in.
The best course of action is almost always to refuse to give your passwords.
Let's also not forget that the article says they kept the passwords for future
use! That's bad enough by itself. I have no idea why this guy didn't treat his
accounts, passwords, and device as compromised and take appropriate action.
That was dumb on his part. As soon as a government agent gets their hands on
an unlocked device, inserts anything into a port, or the device leaves your
sight while in their possession it should be considered compromised. No
exceptions.

While I do acknowledge and support the US retaining the right to deny anyone
access to their country, which is a right of all sovereign nations - it really
leaves a bad taste when they don't reimburse travelers for their flights when
they are either denied entrance or were allowed entrance but missed the flight
due to abnormal detainment times. That can get really tricky, though, because
then you face issues like having to reimburse people who are denied entrance
for very valid reasons. I'm not sure how to fix that problem, but it's
definitely an issue.

------
finid
If visiting the US becomes such a big hassle, have your friend visit you
instead. If that happens enough, the tourism industry takes a hit.

If this country does not want you to come and spend money here, go spend it
somewhere else.

------
parasubvert
The NEXUS trusted traveller program (a similar overlapping program called
Global Entry exists for US citizens) has been great for this. It provides both
border agencies time to check your background thoroughly and then conduct an
interview without the pressure of immediate travel. Border hassles drop
significantly (as do security wait times and screening procedures as it
enrolled you into TSA preCheck).

Doesn't help the privacy angle, but nothing about international travel has
been private for a long time.

------
cryoshon
technical solution: "clean personal data images as a service" wherein you
start an app which creates a new partition, encrypts your old partition, then
hides it until you explicitly decide to unhide it. the new partition is
populated with apps from the cloud and contains already-logged in fake/clean
social media profiles, which are set up automatically for you when you sign up
for the service. the clean profiles are connected to other profiles from the
same service, allowing for a randomized network of people to stand in for your
friends. because you may be questioned about your friends, you're given a
secret code (a picture, color, or symbol in the fake friend's picture) and a
secret narrative based off of that code (how you know them, what they are
like, etc). the software arranges your networks ahead of time so that someone
else's profile will corroborate your narrative about them.

you act compliant and give your passwords to the new partition and the fake
social media accounts to the pigs, who are easily fooled by the appearance of
reality and your ability to explain the people in your network. the pigs feel
good, and you're out the door. once you're out, reactivate the old partition
and wipe the fake one. the premium edition makes fake social media posts for
you every once in a while so it's even less suspicious.

social solution: don't visit the US, and tell other people not to visit.

political solution: destroy the surveillance state / police state by
enshrining new rights for the digital age. this won't happen.

------
ajeet_dhaliwal
This is the power of momentum and the snowball effect of capitalism and
economic success. If the US was a poor country this would hardly be
newsworthy, everyone would just laugh in the face of such a policy and never
visit. Now they may be shooting themselves in the foot getting heavy handed
like this but even if it is the beginning of the end it would take decades for
them to bleed out and in the meantime for most people doing business and
interacting with the US is hard to avoid.

------
devoply
No phone. No password. No electronic device. No problem.

~~~
KKKKkkkk1
Suspicious foreigner. Back you go.

~~~
devoply
They usually have to construct a narrative of suspicion. I don't know how not
having electronic devices or a phone is suspicious.

~~~
jakebasile
This person is attempting to cross with no electronic device. Nearly 100% of
first world citizens own a device. What is this person hiding? It must be bad.
Denied.

~~~
devoply
I never said I did not own one, that would be lying and would be illegal, and
I am a very law abiding citizen. I don't have it on me as I don't want it to
be stolen or hacked or anything else nefarious. You know to keep everything
kosher between myself and my employer and all the other parties that might
send me private information. It's a mitzvah in this day in age.

------
kkleindev
What has been the initial motivation for this procedure? Just gathering the
data and rejecting people not willing to give in or actually looking for red
flags justifying the denial of entry? If the latter applies, what does the set
of red flags look like? I assume the given example in the article is not part
of the initial motivation but rather consequence of misbehaviour of the guard.

------
LordKano
I have been putting a lot of thought into this because I'm going to be
traveling out of and then back into the country later this year. I'm seriously
considering taking an otherwise pristine device with me and wiping it before I
get back to customs.

It's not so much that I have anything to hide, it's the principle of the
thing.

------
frenchman_in_ny
Serious question: What would happen if -- at your point of origin -- you asked
a friend to set the passcode on your phone, and you would only get the
passcode on arrival after clearing border/customs? CBP can ask you to unlock
your phone, but without knowing the passcode, what can they (or you) do?

~~~
kaspiCZ
They will most likely detain you. And grill you for quite some time.

Then seize your electronics, because "you have no need for devices you cannot
unlock" (fictional quote) and most importantly you cannot prove they're safe
(forget about them having to prove they're not safe).

And finally, they would most likely deny you entry.

Given that lately I've read hundreds of comments on US Customs here on HN,
this is the picture I've painted in my mind.

------
rdiddly
Being a suspicious undesirable outlaw terrorist used to take a lot of work.
Now all it takes is NOT doing social media and NOT storing crap on your phone.
Is it that rare? They both seem like good things not to do. All the more so
now that petty bureaucrats are so keen to look at it.

------
rendall
What is "looking for loads"?

~~~
throwanem
Nothing to do with sex work; it's a rather vulgar way of expressing a
preference for the receptive role.

------
abootstrapper
The way we treat travelers at our borders is how we can expect to be treated
at their borders.

~~~
tempestn
And indeed, treatment on entry into Canada can be similarly ludicrous.

------
eecc
No. Seriously no. This is not acceptable and cannot be justified any way.
Mobile devices contain so much information that any search through them is
just a fishing expedition. Just no

------
bbcbasic
Is the workaround just to take the dumb phone on holiday. No laptop, just rent
one on arrival. Everything in the cloud, encrypted.

------
thegayngler
The only ones these people are hurting are the travel and airline industry.
That means less jobs all the way around.

------
mcguire
One wonders what would happen if Canada (and other countries) started treating
US visitors the same way?

------
hawski
Honest question: How US border controls compare to China border controls?

Edit: worded it better.

~~~
xachen
Of the 25-30 times I have entered China, only once was I asked a question and
it was "Are you here on business?".

They are exceedingly polite... Granted it may be because you have to receive a
visa prior and the application is pretty extensive.

On other hand, being Canadian I have been grilled several times at both
Canadian and US immigration.

------
smdz
My first (and last) visit to the US (6-7 years back), at the port of entry:

...Before the US trip, I was tired from 2 other trips and had very little
sleep. Please note the words below may not be exact, but representational...

Officer: some questions...

Me: some answers....

Officer: "Are you carrying any banned substances?"

Me: "No, just regular stuff"

Officer: "Is it banned?"

Me: (confused) "No"

[At this point I was perplexed at why she was asking this question. I was
carrying two packets of packaged food items - was it banned? I didn't know]

Officer - doing something on the computer

Me - Just waiting(standing)

Officer: "Sir, how long are you going to stay?"

Me: "My work will be done in 2 weeks"

..pause.. I realized they would stamp an exit date...

"But this is my first trip to the US. I would like to have a couple of weeks
extra so that I can visit some places around and meet up an old friend"

Officer: "So you don't know how long you are going to stay"

Me: "I didn't say that"

Officer: "First you said 2 weeks, and now you are saying a few more"

Me: "Sorry for the confusion. I'd like to stay for a month, my official work
would be done in first 2 weeks"

Officer: "You just don't know how long you are going to stay"

Me: [Didn't say anything, but kept thinking - Is she annoyed, or not too
bright, or did I say something wrong?....]

Me: (waiting) ...

I recalled a particular question on application form - "Are you a member or
representative of a terrorist organization?" And some similar questions on
that form that I would consider stupid questions.

Me: (giggled)...

Officer: "What?"

Me: "Nothing" (still smiling)

Officer: "What's so funny?"

Me: "Nothing important, I recalled a stupid question on the visa
application..." and then I told her the question and continued "...Why would
any terrorist check that box?"

Officer: (blank face), got back to her computer and after some time: "Please
come with me"

She took me to a room where I was waiting for 40 minutes. Then another officer
came and let me go saying they had to check my bags. When I asked "What was
wrong", he said "Nothing". I just wanted to leave and crash at the hotel.

Once I travelled the US, I felt that the security situation was so lax within
(I may be wrong). That is why the port of entry becomes such an important
barrier.

While returning back from US, via Amsterdam - the Amsterdam authorities
questioned me as if I was travelling from some seriously-troubled-war-torn
country. Might have been a one-off incident

After that trip which was more stressful and a bit frustrating - I kept
refusing any other trips to the US. And the situation seems to be a lot more
worse now.

------
makach
Excellent article!

on a completely different note:

I chuckled when I saw that it comes from a gay website with the directed
advertisement that is typically associated with this life style!

I wonder what kind of advertisement will be directed at me as a consequence of
reading this article^^

------
ommunist
Well, the obvious solution is to hire more people from gay community to CBP.

~~~
gspetr
Suppose the next time you're a painter bringing in a painting of yours into
the country. Next thing you know they are accusing you of smuggling. Is the
solution to hire people with background in arts?

~~~
ommunist
Answering your question. You know, I worked as CITES expert on customs back 15
or 16 years. No sane customs officer can distinguish between crocodile skins.
This is why there was (and still is) institution of advisors.

~~~
gspetr
Thank you for a thoughtful answer.

------
peteretep

        > US Customs officers didn’t even
        > need to ask for his passwords —
        > they were saved in their own
        > system
    

I don't want to victim-blame here, but COME ON. You're going to delete a bunch
of info from your phone, but you're not going to change your passwords after
having given them over?

~~~
maerF0x0
While we're victim blaming. His new "clean" phone had nudes of him on it.

~~~
Jonnax
It wasn't the phone. Because his phone was clean, they took his laptop.

------
blazespin
Do we even know if this true? Seems improbable to me.

~~~
arm
Doesn’t seem very improbable to me, considering that this kind of thing isn’t
exactly new.

For example:

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13092330](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13092330)

