
The sad truth about depressive realism (2006) [pdf] - lainon
https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Samuel_Hannah/publication/6441659_The_sad_truth_about_depressive_realism/links/0912f5106e6479973d000000.pdf?origin=publication_list
======
aantix
Michael Abrash once told about a study where the participants were shown a
ball on the screen and the idea was to push the controller up, in an effort to
keep the ball above a virtual line in the middle of the screen.

The first group was unknowingly given full control of the ball via the
control, the second randomly was given some control, the third group had no
control.

Only those with a depression diagnosis were able to properly assess when they
had no control.

Wish I could find the original source..

~~~
whatshisface
Curiously, overestimating leads to the correct behavior here: since attempting
to control the ball has no cost, the only bad outcome would be deciding to not
control it when you could have done so. This can be avoided by always
attempting to control it. I wonder if the result of the study would persist if
inaction was sometimes the right choice?

~~~
samirillian
Gets back to the distinction between life as puzzle and life as game.
Depressives may be better puzzle solvers, but optimists play the game better.

Edit - or the distinction between the picture-theory of language and the tool-
theory. Depressives draw a more accurate picture but optimists make better use
of the "tools"

~~~
mamon
Which is why the optimal strategy is to be optimist most of the time, but fall
into depressive mood when we encounter a lot of obstacles. Use that depressive
time to assess your situation and then start changing it, fueled by your
normal optimism.

The issue is, if the obstacles we encounter are too many then we remain in low
mood for too long, and that state becomes permament. Early in human evolution,
when we were all living at savanah all the dangers and obstacles were short-
term. This is entirely different in civilized society.

~~~
thesimpsons1022
do you know that depression is a real disease and not some frame of mind you
can choose to be in or excuse at will? i get the point of your post but the
terminology is really wrong.

~~~
striking
From Wikipedia:

> A DSM diagnosis distinguishes an episode (or 'state') of depression from the
> habitual (or 'trait') depressive symptoms someone can experience as part of
> their personality.

Depressive mood != depressive disorder. The terminology isn't wrong.

~~~
thesimpsons1022
perhaps. but the original article was talking about actual depressed people.

------
NumberCruncher
Some people - they don't call themselves psychiatrist on purpose - say that
depression is not a (mental) illness but a normal human reaction to "abuse".
The Psychopath Code by Hintjens [1] describes how different entities (persons,
societies, government, etc.) can "abuse" you. Putting the two things together
gives an interesting view on depression.

For me it is not surprising that people who have been "abused" in the past
don't get fooled that easy the second time. IMHO the persons who successful
overcome depression acquire some kind of "super power". The power which comes
also with stoicism.

[1]
[https://www.gitbook.com/book/hintjens/psychopathcode/details](https://www.gitbook.com/book/hintjens/psychopathcode/details)

~~~
drzaiusapelord
I'm sorry but this is just crazy talk, no pun intended. My depression has hurt
me in so many ways even if I'm 'over' it. It hasn't made me this world-weary
stoic, it has hurt my ability to be an effective person, relate with others,
socialize, be optimistic, etc. There's no silver lining to it. I think a lot
of these extremist opinions are very dangerous and on the level of anti-vax
stuff because they can cause death. 2% to 9% of people that have been
diagnosed with depression in their lifetime will go on to complete suicide.
These are non-trivial numbers.

[http://mentalhealth.about.com/cs/depression/a/suiciderates.h...](http://mentalhealth.about.com/cs/depression/a/suiciderates.htm)

~~~
throwaway7312
There's a difference between beating depression, which the parent comment is
talking about, and being 'over' depression, which is what your comment is
talking about.

Beating depression requires mastering one's own inner life and changing the
mechanics of how one thinks and interprets the world. This really does give
you super powers coming out of it. And it makes you essentially depression-
proof. Those 2% to 9% of people committing suicide are not people who have
beat depression.

Getting 'over' depression is what happens when the depressed individual
experiences a change in life circumstances or another external or temporary
internal event that removes the depression for now. That depression can always
come back, and among the people I know who haven't beat depression, it always
seems to. They never get the 'super powers' because they never beat it.

Most of the highly successful, most gregarious people I know were deeply
depressed at one point, beat it, and became expert problem solvers with
superhuman capacities for perseverance. You could take their business from
them, have them walk in on their spouse cheating on them, and find out their
children aren't theirs and they'd be sad for a week or two then get right back
on with rebuilding their lives again as soon as they finished deconstructing
the problem and mapped out a new path for themselves.

Depression almost seems like a gauntlet certain high potential individuals
have to pass through. Some of them make it through the gauntlet and get those
super powers. Others don't make it through the gauntlet, step out for a
breather, then go back in again. Then maybe they make it through that time, or
maybe it's back out, then back in again. I have family members who've been
sucked into the depression gauntlet repeatedly without ever beating it, and
you can tell they have the potential for 'super powers', but never get them.

~~~
thaumaturgy
You mean well, and what you're saying may be helpful to people who struggle
with certain feelings from time to time.

But statements like these are extremely frustrating for people with actual
depression.

Depression is not just a state of mind you can change through will power.
Here's a fun thing to do: if everything you believe about depression is
applied to a broken arm or colorblindness and sounds ludicrous, then it's
wrong.

For example: "Beating a broken arm requires mastering one's own inner life and
changing the mechanics of how one thinks and interprets the world..."

Or: "Getting 'over' colorblindness is what happens when the colorblind
individual experiences a change in life circumstances or another external or
temporary internal event that removes the colorblindness for now."

Depression _changes the way you think_. It removes your motivation for
improving. I didn't pick these examples randomly; depression is a
colorblindness of emotion. It is insidious, and nasty, and "thinking your way
out of it" is something that's going to be regarded in the future the way that
we regard blood-letting a fever now.

There are treatments for it, with varying side effects, and there are some
tactics people prone to depressive episodes can use to try to lessen the
impact of their depression, but depression itself is not something you "beat".
At best, it's something you learn to live with: having a broken brain for the
rest of your life.

~~~
curun1r
> "thinking your way out of it" is something that's going to be regarded in
> the future the way that we regard blood-letting a fever now

As someone who spent more than a decade struggling with a diagnosed depression
and the numbness that came from trying to get better with 5 different
prescription drugs that addressed a few symptoms while making the whole thing
a lot worse, what worked for me was, eventually, thinking my way out of it.
And it's funny that you compare it to some medieval treatment because the
method I used to think my way out of it has been taught for 2500 years. The
key is you can't just try to think your way out of it. There is a specific
technique to meditation and mindfulness that the watered down versions of
mindfulness training miss. Go to the source and learn the traditional
practice, not the bits and pieces that psychiatrists have tried to marry with
more recent psychotherapeutic theory.

Now with daily anapana/vipassana practice, I'm able to live much more in the
present moment, which allows for enjoyment and sadness free from the suffering
that I now realize was manifesting in my depression. It's a form of delusion
to deny or ignore the truth of what's happening right now, no matter how
simple that truth might be. And when I delude myself often enough, I start to
feel depressed. It's cause and effect, and I see it so clearly now. But now
that I understand the cause and how to stop causing it, I can recognize when
I'm feeling depressed and bring myself out of it.

Nothing used to frustrate me more than people insinuating that I could fix my
depression by just trying harder. And that's what "think yourself out of it"
sounded like to me. My motivation was so zapped that that kind of advice just
made me more despondent. So I want to make it clear that thinking your way out
of depression is _not_ a matter of trying harder. In fact once it clicks, it
becomes easier...like riding a bicycle downhill. And that's a good metaphor,
because if thinking your way out of it is riding a bicycle, how effective you
are at it and how hard you have to work depend entirely on which direction you
point, not how hard you pedal.

~~~
chillwaves
I appreciate your opposing take. There is a lot of push back against non
traditional remedies, and also against the pharmaceutical route (in both
cases, deserved). As someone else who is suffering, I have found comfort in
meditation, mindful practices, and most importantly acceptance. These mental
states allow me to function enough to exercise or eat well, or mind my sleep
or stay away from drugs (which provides a physiological basis for "getting
better"). So I agree you can't just think your way out, but the right frame of
mind can provide the momentum to put the rest of the pieces together.

------
TheCycoONE
Did people read the same article I did. The conclusion was depressive realism
is missattributed pessimism, not some sort of objectivity super power.

~~~
M_Grey
I was just about to post the final portion of the conclusion:

 _In summary, compared to nondepressed indi- viduals, depressives are “nay-
sayers”. Depressives may be sadder but they are not wiser; rather, so- called
“depressive realism” results from the bias of depressives to say “no”._

Clearly a lot of people just didn't read it at all... and didn't even skim the
major portions.

~~~
jrochkind1
To be fair, it's pretty poor abstract-writing to not hint at the conclusion in
the abstract. That's the _job_ of the abstract, to summarize the contents, not
to be a 'teaser' where you don't know what you're going to get without reading
the whole article!

~~~
cybertronic
Agree, and the title too, almost clicbait

------
RCortex
The treatment/theraputic perspective is that depression is a treatable disease
of the brain, one that can be modified by changes in behavior/thinking and/or
by medication.

(Note: the paper paints a mixed picture but concludes with the generally-
accepted scientific model that depressive realism is rarely accurate)

...It's strange how I've been seeing more and more about how Depression is
somehow "Rational" lately. That kind of thinking reinforces depression, and is
part of the core of the illness. Also this meta-study doesn't assess whether
depressed individuals also overestimate helplessness. (One of the studies in
the paper only tests if they underestimate control in an experiment, which
might sound like the same thing at first blush but it isn't) Broken clock is
right twice, poorly-designed studies, and all that...

~~~
thevardanian
One thing I don't understand is how a brain-state can ever be considered
abnormal. It can be considered disadvantageous, or advantageous in some
aspects only, but in no way be "normal". What are the normal facial features?

~~~
RCortex
It's not a matter of abnormal vs normal, it's a matter of dysfunctional versus
functional in various situations. It's also a matter of the brain itself
inhibiting healthy functioning of the entire body (in the case of depression
and similar illnesses) The mind is the body, most especially the brain.

~~~
wu-ikkyu
What if the situation/environment the person is in is disfunctional? Wouldn't
a "functional" mind within a "dysfunctional" environment purposefully "inhibit
healthy functioning of the entire body" as a warning sign that a new
environment is needed?

~~~
mcguire
No. No matter what the state of the environment, a mental illness is not going
to improve the situation, if only because it limits the ability to change the
environment. In fact, that is the definition of mental illness: it causes
problems in dealing with life.

A "healthy" mind in a dysfunctional environment can produce physical symptoms
that mimic mental illness---anxiety for example---which makes diagnosis
difficult, and is the root of the difference between the blues and clinical
depression.

~~~
wu-ikkyu
>A "healthy" mind in a dysfunctional environment can produce physical symptoms
that mimic mental illness

Im not sure I understand. When you say "mimic mental illness", are you saying
that environmental factors cannot cause a "healthy" mind to get a "real"
mental illness?

~~~
mcguire
I have no solid data on that and I am not a mental health practitioner in any
sense.

But to my mind, no. The problems of a healthy mind in an unhealthy environment
are easy to solve: change the environment and the problem goes away. On the
other hand, problems such as my depression get only temporary relief from
changing the environment; the only long term relief has been drug treatment.

------
jfrankamp
This makes me think: is depression a human societal defense mechanism?

Having a diversity of perspectives along an optimism scale seems optimal when
faced with an external threat to your tribe/group.

~~~
throwaway7312
Animals get depressed, and manifest all the same behavior patterns humans do
during depression. It's a much older phenomenon than human society.

There are a number of good theories on what the function of depression is. The
best I've seen is that it's the brain's deep problem-solving mode for when an
organism needs to hunker down and deal with hard problems it doesn't know how
to solve easily. The mind slips into rumination mode and turns a problem over
again and again in hopes of discovering some new insight about it and cracking
it.

~~~
bumblebeard
There doesn't need to be a "function;" the conclusion of the paper puts it
pretty well:

"In summary, compared to nondepressed indi- viduals, depressives are “nay-
sayers”. Depressives may be sadder but they are not wiser; rather, so- called
“depressive realism” results from the bias of depressives to say “no”"

Cell division is obviously important for organisms to function, but it can run
amok - that's cancer. Similarly, pessimism is sometimes a useful approach to
solving a problem, but it becomes debilitating when it's out of control.

Depression is not a "problem solving mode" or anything like that; it's a
disease. Depression (the medical condition, not just pessimism or being sad
sometimes) is totally and completely draining. Someone who is depressed does
not have the energy to solve the problem of "should I take a shower today,"
let alone "hunker down and deal with hard problems."

Sorry to pick on you, I just find the comment threads on articles like this so
frustratingly ignorant sometimes.

~~~
naasking
> There doesn't need to be a "function

Given the existence of depression in the animal kingdom, and it's persistence
in humans despite its nonadaptive qualities, this accumulation of coincidences
strongly suggests that it definitely had some adaptive purpose at some point.

------
Animats
_It might be said that, when the outcome density is increased, the typical
participant displays irrational optimism._

The slot machine industry figured that out about two decades ago. Slots today
have a lot more small payoffs than they used to. Lotteries have also increased
the number of small payoffs. The expectation ratio is no better, but dividing
it up differently keeps some people playing.

------
rootedbox
This is why i'm so concise on Mondays.

------
pierrec
If everyone knew about this, democracy might be more effective. We would only
elect depressed people to positions of power, favoring their superior acumen.
The most convincing speeches would be nihilist considerations on the
uselessness of trying and the futility of life, then we would know, "this is
the one who sees things as they are". One issue, though, might be that the
military commander in chief might try to use that power against themselves.

Edit: Reading further into the article, it seems my utopia is actually
unrealistic, how unfortunate.

~~~
gerbilly
>We would only elect depressed people to positions of power, favoring their
superior acumen.

Like Abraham Lincoln for example? He was famously depressed, and thought after
he gave it that the famous Gettysburg Address was a dud.

[1]
[http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2005/10/lincolns...](http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2005/10/lincolns-
great-depression/304247/)

~~~
spangry
Winston Churchill is another good example of a depressed (or possibly bipolar)
leader (Churchill's "black dog"). Interesting that they are both war-time
leaders.

On Lincoln, the recorded remarks of a fellow Illinois legislator are
particularly interesting (from the article):

"He Sought company, and indulged in fun and hilarity without restraint, or
Stint as to time[.] Still when by himself, he told me that he was so overcome
with mental depression, that he never dare carry a knife in his pocket."

------
tehchromic
So it's hopeless afterall

------
gtirloni
Drawbacks usually outweigh benefits in this case.

------
nekopa
Can someone add pdf to the title?

~~~
betenoire
why? the text is right there on the page if you scroll down at all

------
habitue
The title of this paper is the best part

------
goldenkek
Deprived of happiness is terribly conspicuous. For optimists, this fact plays
no part in their existential computations. For pessimists, however, it is
axiomatic.

Whether a pessimist urges us to live “heroically” with a knife in our gut or
denounces life as not worth living is immaterial. What matters is that he
makes no bones about hurt being the Great Problem it is incumbent on
philosophy to observe. But this problem can be solved only by establishing an
imbalance between hurt and happiness that would enable us in principle to say
which is more desirable—existence or nonexistence. While no airtight case has
ever been made regarding the undesirability of human life, pessimists still
run themselves ragged trying to make one. Optimists have no comparable
mission. When they do argue for the desirability of human life it is only in
reaction to pessimists arguing the opposite, even though no airtight case has
ever been made regarding that desirability. Optimism has always been an
undeclared policy of human culture—one that grew out of our animal instincts
to survive and reproduce—rather than an articulated body of thought. It is the
default condition of our blood and cannot be effectively questioned by our
minds or put in grave doubt by our pains. This would explain why at any given
time there are more cannibals than philosophical pessimists.

[https://www.goodreads.com/work/quotes/2696709-the-
conspiracy...](https://www.goodreads.com/work/quotes/2696709-the-conspiracy-
against-the-human-race)

