
Mapzen Shutdown - morisy
https://mapzen.com/blog/shutdown/
======
NelsonMinar
Oh I'm so sad for them. Mapzen has a bunch of really great products and
services, they are some of the top experts in open source mapping. It's a
shame the business hasn't worked out.

They have a good companion post on alternative services for folks needing to
migrate. It doubles as a survey of the best in open source mapping tools out
there right now.
[https://mapzen.com/blog/migration/](https://mapzen.com/blog/migration/)

 _Edit_ also a post specific to the Who's On First project:
[https://www.whosonfirst.org/blog/2018/01/02/chapter-
two/](https://www.whosonfirst.org/blog/2018/01/02/chapter-two/)

~~~
bsder
> They have a good companion post on alternative services for folks needing to
> migrate. It doubles as a survey of the best in open source mapping tools out
> there right now.
> [https://mapzen.com/blog/migration/](https://mapzen.com/blog/migration/)

That post needs to be archived somewhere before the shutdown.

~~~
queeerkopf
They took care of that themselves: [https://medium.com/postzen/mapzen-
alternatives-aa6d857e3532](https://medium.com/postzen/mapzen-alternatives-
aa6d857e3532)

It's not as nicely formatted though. The Internet Archive has it too and it's
closer to the original:
[http://web.archive.org/web/20180102173058/https://mapzen.com...](http://web.archive.org/web/20180102173058/https://mapzen.com/blog/migration/)

~~~
javajosh
What if medium goes out of business?

~~~
voltagex_
Donate to the Internet Archive. It's not a "what if", it's a "when".

------
CPLX
I am excited to see a shutdown notice that is clear, short, not full of vague
platitudes, and free of the word "journey"

~~~
hkmurakami
That's because they weren't acquired so they don't have to write editorial
spin.

~~~
daenney
Plenty of startups fail and write massive articles about how everything they
did was amazing, they were going to cure cancer and all the world's ailments,
but something fell through and now they're dead and how it's mostly everyone
else's fault. I've seen far more spin around shutdown than acquisitions.

The latest of such beauty to come out of the tech world is Otto's shutdown:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16047382](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16047382).
And one of their engineer's reply to that spin:
[https://medium.com/@ben_73928/as-one-of-the-team-members-
let...](https://medium.com/@ben_73928/as-one-of-the-team-members-let-go-i-
dont-share-the-same-gratitude-posted-by-some-of-the-team-4029737df4ea)

~~~
samstave
Wasn’t there a spoof site that was a “shutdown spin generator” some time ago
that would auto generate the blurb about the reasons for your shutdown...

It was posted on HN some time back.

~~~
jerf
You may be thinking of shutdownify:
[https://web.archive.org/web/20150819204235/http://www.shutdo...](https://web.archive.org/web/20150819204235/http://www.shutdownify.com/)

(Note that that's actually the earliest archive that archive.org has of it.
Alas, it never actually had a generator.)

~~~
adriand
This is pretty amusing. I can't actually tell if this is satire or not. Was
this a parody of startups (and shutdown notices) or a legitimate service?

~~~
samstave
Parody

------
kevincennis
Really sad to see. I've been very happy with Mapzen for the past year or so.

Their open source stuff is really good, and the service itself is excellent as
well. Not quite as polished as Google/Mapbox, but absolutely usable in
production apps.

Would be very interested to read a post mortem. Did they simply struggle to
find users, was their pricing strategy wrong, was quality an issue?

If anyone at Mapzen is reading these comments, thank you for all the work
you've done. I'll miss you guys.

~~~
rmc
> _Would be very interested to read a post mortem. Did they simply struggle to
> find users, was their pricing strategy wrong, was quality an issue?_

Didn't they only start charging for _anything_ 9 months ago? Before then
everything was free? ( [https://mapzen.com/blog/mapzen-
flex/](https://mapzen.com/blog/mapzen-flex/) )

~~~
kevincennis
Yeah, that's right.

------
jlengrand
There is a product from Mapzen that I have never seen anywhere else :
Isochrones ([https://mapzen.com/documentation/mobility/isochrone/api-
refe...](https://mapzen.com/documentation/mobility/isochrone/api-reference/)).
Been interested in this for years
([https://stackoverflow.com/questions/9403699/map-of-all-
point...](https://stackoverflow.com/questions/9403699/map-of-all-points-below-
a-certain-time-of-travel)) They were the only ones to provide a solution.

I am super sad to see this go and still haven't seen any alternative.

Happy to hear about anything in this direction :s.

~~~
detaro
[https://graphhopper.com/api/1/docs/isochrone/](https://graphhopper.com/api/1/docs/isochrone/)

[https://developer.here.com/documentation/routing/topics/requ...](https://developer.here.com/documentation/routing/topics/request-
isoline.html)

~~~
karussell
Thanks for mentioning this. Also keep in mind that mapzen its isochrone API:

[https://github.com/valhalla/valhalla](https://github.com/valhalla/valhalla)

as well as ours is open source:

[https://github.com/graphhopper/graphhopper/pull/1237](https://github.com/graphhopper/graphhopper/pull/1237)

------
pheelicks
It is a great shame to see them go, was always impressed with the quality of
their products and ecosystem built around it.

If there are any Mapzeners here looking for something new, please consider
taking a look at www.procedural.eu - we also make a WebGL mapping engine based
on OSM data, but our focus is more using procedural generation to augment the
data, to generate immersive 3D natural environments for visualizing ski
resorts, hiking routes etc.

~~~
samstave
I want to know more

------
danso
That’s sad news. I was planning to use them for my programming class. The
Geocoding and other APIs, besides being free and generous, were easy to learn
and very useful. The technical blog posts were also enlightening.

~~~
riordan
Have you considered teaching your journalism students Docker first?

~~~
danso
No that’s be too much overhead for a beginners level class.

~~~
karussell
You could do it on one server and give students access to it using the docs
from mapzen

------
yosamino
> we’re optimistic about what’s next.

Well... what's next for me is rewriting this application in the next 30 days.

Not feeling too "optimistic" there about that.

~~~
freyfogle
Do you need geocoding? I ask because I am one of the makers of the OpenCage
geocoder. We offer forward and reverse geocoding from open data (primarily
OpenStreetMap, but also others). We're listed in the migration guide, and
we'll be offering 20% off our pricing for all former Mapzen customers. Blog
post about that is coming shortly.

I hope we can help you.

[https://geocoder.opencagedata.com](https://geocoder.opencagedata.com)

Edit: here's the post about the 20% lifetime discount for former Mapzen
customers:
[https://blog.opencagedata.com/post/mapzen](https://blog.opencagedata.com/post/mapzen)

~~~
voltagex_
I'm sorry, but the last time I tried OpenCage it was _terrible_. And by
terrible, I mean in line with everything else that uses OSM-based data.
Geocoding is hard and I wish you luck, but you've got a long way to go.

~~~
heurist
I've never come across a geocoder better or cheaper than Google,
unfortunately. They all claim accuracy but fail in trivial cases, or
interpolate to the wrong part of the street where Google is spot on (though
Google has its occasional flaws). I'd love to see competition but it's
probably not coming any time soon.

~~~
freyfogle
A comparison is challenging in that in our experience there are many different
use cases. It all depends on which geographies you are interested in, and what
level of accuracy, speed, data freedom, and cost you are willing to accept. I
mean of course we can do query X on different services and say service A
returns answer 1, service B returns answer 2, etc. But that's only useful if
your queries look like X, and very often they don't. So it's difficult to say
"service A is better". Much more relevant is which is better for your specific
needs (and budget).

The only guaranteed way to know if a service will meet your needs is to test,
hence why we offer 2,500 free queries per day for as long as you like.

Happy geocoding!

------
gerry_shaw
Anybody know if there is a hosted libpostal service? I didn't notice in the
migration document. It's easy to include in our application if we need to but
it's used infrequently and consumes a couple of gigabytes of memory so we've
found it useful to call as a service when needed.

------
jimmyrocks
Such sad news. Mapzen has been a core component of many projects that I've
worked with. They have created and supported many great products that will be
missed.

They also have been a big part of supporting the GeoNYC group and helping to
organize the OpenStreetMap US conferences.

Thanks for all the maps and data Mapzen!

------
thinkloop
Am I the only one who constantly discovers cool services during their shutdown
notices? It feels like half of them can start to make it after the press they
get during shutdown.

------
LeonM
Why are they shutting down?

~~~
daenney
I'm going to guess: not enough customers to get them to a point where the
business is sustainable and not being able to find inverstors that are willing
to invest in something like this.

They have a very nice product but competing with the likes of Google is hard.

~~~
spaceflunky
People don't realize how onerous and expensive it is to run a mapping service
(even if you use OSM data). For example, the Google Maps API and the Bing Maps
APIs are most likely totally subsidized services. Google/MSFT are able to
justify the cost because the mapping tools are used in so many other products.
And since the cost of development is spread over multiple places, the true
cost of the geo services are not reflected in the prices of the services.
Whereas someone like Mapzen has to recoup all of their costs on just the
services.

Additionally, companies like Mapzen make this mistake in believing that
because Google (and a few others) have this massive Maps API ecosystem that
there's a ton of money in this market. I've seen similar investment slides and
their argument boils down to something like, "well Google/msft is aggressively
going after this market so that means there MUST be money here" and that's the
bulk of the justification. Honestly, I don't even think Google/MSFT know why
they have been going after the Maps API market so aggressively. For one,
Google has completely and utterly failed to leverage the Maps API to
transition or segue customers onto Google Cloud Platform where there is
obviously a lot of money to be made. So like what else is there? There's no
way the geo services business matches the cloud, ads, youtube, or
chrome/android business. Not to mention all the other shit going on.

In conclusion, I feel like we will see other services fail as well. I would be
SHOCKED to see MapBox continue on or even IPO. They will most likely be sold
once investors realize what I've just discussed or shut down. I also predict
that Google / MSFT will just limit their interest in this product unless they
can find a way to help it drive GCP/Azure business.

~~~
huac
Google has begun to sell ads for businesses and ads for Uber/Lyft in Maps, and
will continue to do so.

~~~
spaceflunky
I was talking only about geo services (aka the APIs), you're talking about the
consumer products (the app and the site).

But more to my point Google and MSFT have a "multi-faceted" geo business so
they can make money in many different places. Whereas someone like Mapzen or
Mapbox ONLY has the geo services/APIs end. So where can the go to subsidize
the cost of the services? The answer is they cant so the revenue from the
services to carry the entire cost of their efforts.

~~~
huac
Sure, we're on the same page. For Google, building out a Maps service is a way
to increase inventory for an ad platform. They can accept much lower margins
on the geo services business, since they have high margin ads efforts.

Theoretically, if Mapbox could get enough views, they could also enter the
advertising market. But from my understanding of their company and business
model, that would be a really tough sell.

~~~
spaceflunky
The first Maps API dropped in 2008. No one company has figured out ads on geo
APIS. Not Google. Not FB, MSFT, or anyone else has figured out how to put ads
on geo apis. I think its safe to say its never going to happen.

~~~
kbyatnal
Google already has ads in Maps & Waze

------
karussell
Anyone from Mapzen here on why this has such a short timeframe for paying
customers? Not even 1 month! Are there possibilities to extend this somehow?

------
jermaustin1
How long until someone makes a script to install and configure all of the
opensource products and clones the API to run on a DO droplet?

~~~
kevincennis
I remember reading it takes several days on super beefy hardware just to
import all of the data from openstreetmap and openaddresses they they use to
run mapzen.

I don't think this is a thing where you just whip up a docker-compose file and
spin up a Heroku dyno.

~~~
rmc
I don't know about mapzen, never used their tools. But a common first way to
use OSM data is to use osm2pgsql to import the data into PostgreSQL. Yes, on
beefy hardware, it can take ~24 hours to import the whole OSM database file
for the whole world.

One beauty of OSM is that lots of the software can, and does, work for region
based extracts, and doesn't require the whole world. You can render tiles, do
geocoding, or routing on a per country, or continent basis, depending on what
you want. Mapzen provided "metroextract", but Geofabrik (my employer) provides
continent/country/state extracts on
[https://download.geofabrik.de](https://download.geofabrik.de) You can also
cut out your own extracts with osmosis, or osmium-tool, based on the
planet/continent/country/state region covering your area of interest.

------
drumttocs8
Sad to see this. I've been using Mapbox for my projects, if only because their
documentation was pretty good for a beginner like me- but Mapzen seemed like
an excellent service, and I hate to see that competition die.

------
kbjudit
If you need an alternative, please also keep an eye on MAPCAT. Our OSM-based
public map portal is already live (www.mapcat.com), and the map API is just
about to be launched. More info at
[http://try.mapcat.com/](http://try.mapcat.com/)

------
GlennS
I've made quite a bit of use of Tangram JS (which I was very impressed by),
and also of Mapzen's Open Street Map metro extracts and the IMPOSM project.
Both very useful - thanks Mapzen.

Hope everyone involved manages to find new work swiftly.

~~~
ben_aus
Are you using Mapzen's vector tiles with Tangram? If so have you decided on a
replacement? Mapzen pricing was good, too good it seems. I require access to
global tiles but very low amount of requests with a custom Tangram JS yaml.

~~~
GlennS
I'm not. I usually use Tippecanoe
[[https://github.com/mapbox/tippecanoe](https://github.com/mapbox/tippecanoe)]
to create vector tiles with my data on, and then pick a set of raster tiles
from here [[http://leaflet-extras.github.io/leaflet-
providers/preview/](http://leaflet-extras.github.io/leaflet-
providers/preview/)] (the Stamen ones are very nice, and also the ESRI ones
are gorgeous but need you to have an ESRI license) for background and labels.

------
eruci
Sorry to hear that. Is openaddresses.io, one of their backed projects dying
too? I've been using their data on geocode.xyz, but it seems like there has
not been any new data in the past 6 months.

------
jennoo
Does anyone recommend a good alternative which embraces the open source
mentality so I am allowed to permanently store the data.

~~~
karussell
They have listed only alternatives that have a similar philosophy:
[https://mapzen.com/blog/migration/](https://mapzen.com/blog/migration/)

~~~
lucideer
Not so, unfortunately.

For example, while Mapbox use open source (OSM) tiles, other services - e.g.
their search API - aren't open, as Mapzen's is(/was). Yet they are listed on
that page by Mapzen as an alternative for Search.

There may be other such examples in that list.

~~~
morganherlocker
> For example, while Mapbox use open source (OSM) tiles, other services - e.g.
> their search API - aren't open, as Mapzen's is(/was).

The geocoding engine[1] powering the Mapbox Search API is open source, and has
been since its inception in 2012. The same is true of the routing engine[2]
powering the Mapbox Directions API (OSRM), and the engine used to create
Vector Tiles[3] for the Mapbox Maps API, along with the engines powering most
Mapbox APIs.

Non-open code at Mapbox is usually tightly coupled to our infrastructure or
data processing pipelines, which would not be generally useful to the
community at large. The useful bits of even this infrastructure code is also
typically abstracted into generally useful libraries for community use, such
as earcut[4], rasterio[5], tile-cover[6], and hundreds of other modules of all
varieties.

    
    
      - [1] https://github.com/mapbox/carmen
      - [2] https://github.com/project-osrm/osrm-backend
      - [3] https://github.com/mapnik/mapnik
      - [4] https://github.com/mapbox/earcut
      - [5] https://github.com/mapbox/rasterio
      - [6] https://github.com/mapbox/tile-cover

~~~
lucideer
I was aware of this, but the gp said

> _embraces the open source mentality so I am allowed to permanently store the
> data_

which pertains to data. So I was referring to data.

------
gd2
In with the people who are calling this a sad shutdown.

------
fiatjaf
How can we use [https://github.com/davidar/ipfs-
maps](https://github.com/davidar/ipfs-maps) ?

~~~
aw3c2
It depends what you need. If you need an outdated, highly filtered dataset,
sure. But no need for IPFS, just grab the tiles from
[https://openmaptiles.com/](https://openmaptiles.com/) where you also find the
appropriate license (which this demo does not seem to include...)

------
sirmike_
Hey there all! I work for Boundless Geo. This sucks. But thankfully we and
many like us will be able to help pick up the Geo Spatial slack as it were.

Boundless helps reduce the cost and time of deploying and managing geospatial
software with a scalable, open GIS platform – including Server, Exchange,
Desktop and Connect – and a powerful ecosystem of geospatial knowledge, tools
and resources.

Please let me know if anyone has any questions!

------
notyourday
I'm breathlessly waiting for another installment into "Our Incredible Journey"

