

Ask HN: A languishing startup with a great product - thoughts? - jodrellblank

I found http://www.senseboard.com/ a few years ago. It's a keyboard-substitute that clips over the back of your hand, and interprets the tendon movement as you "type" into text.<p>The device is elegant and compact, but better yet it's an elegant solution to the problem of mobile typing/data entry. It's the missing link for a new era of mobile computing - it completes the trio: Cellphone, Pocket Projector, Senseboard.<p>Use just the phone, or the phone + projector, the phone + senseboard, or all three. That trio would be smaller, more portable, more comfortable and more flexible than any netbook.<p>Now is the perfect time; screen size and data entry are <i>the</i> major limitations for mobile devices. Powerful PDAs and cellphones are here. Phones with 'proper' operating systems. Pocket Projectors are just appearing to get around the limitations of small, low resolution displays and they wont stop at being 640x480 and dim. Soon they will hit netbook screen quality. But data entry is still limited to those foldaway keyboards that are both big and unwieldy compared to a phone, full of delicate moving parts, and still small and cramped to type on. Senseboard is a much better alternative.<p>The big problem is - it's vapourware. Best new product of 2001. Nothing but a couple of minor press releases since then.<p>"So what?" you ask. Well, I've mentioned it here a couple of times and had no discussion. I decided to submit it directly as a link to publicise it a bit - it plummeted from the new submissions page with no comments and no votes. That's life, eh? I would probably have left it there except I said this:<p>http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=570994<p>and got <i>27</i> upvotes. 27! For a pernickety grammar correction one-liner! Right now, that contrast is really getting under my skin. I know there are technical people here, people who've used the Twiddler, successful business founders, hardware and software developers, VCs, people who might see what I can't, might also care, and might have influence, so I Ask HN:<p>Do you think the Senseboard is as cool and potentially game changing as I think it is? Do you think it could be a successful product?<p>Can we outsiders <i>do</i> anything to encourage it into existance, and - should we?<p>(I have no affiliation with the company, I'm just tired of seeing what seems to be first class ideas like this sidelined while streams of clone digital cameras, media players, GPS receivers, cellphones and so on pour into the market as if the world wont be satisfied until there's ten models for every human - and that needs to happen yesterday!)
======
jerf
I see two basic possibilities: One, it ran out of money before it could
launch, or two, it _doesn't actually work_.

I would put relative probabilities of those two as somewhere around 1:9.

I look at this thing as an engineer and I see a signal processing problem that
means it's probably pretty easy to build something that's right about 70% of
the time, and with great effort you could get to 85%... but that's terrible
for an input device. Maybe I'm wrong. But I also know for a fact I've
encountered tons of people who have faced other problems like this, and in
their boundless optimism are _sure_ that the last few percent are just a
matter of trying harder, and some of them go on to blow millions on "trying
harder" on what is fundamentally impossible. The truth is, electronics really
don't care how optimistic you are.

Most of the 'first class' ideas you think are being overlooked are actually
the second case. 3D interfaces, a whole whackload of input devices (including
the fun case of exotic video game console interfaces), energy sources, new
circuit types that are going to blow silicon out of the water, and the list
just goes on and on. Most of them just plain _don't work_ like the advocates
said they would.

Some of the advocates are honestly wrong. Some... are not.

Just about the only thing that factors in this thing's favor is that exotic
input interfaces have historically faced a very steep uphill battle. Dvorak
and other alternate keyboard layouts have gotten very little traction, and
that involves no extra hardware at all. I've used a couple of exotic input
devices or methods that work perfectly fine but stand no chance of general
acceptance because people have no interest in learning how to use them.

(I would point out that I've left open the possibility that it does work. But
I'd want to see a lot of evidence not coming directly from the company.
Everybody _always_ claims awesomeness.)

~~~
jodrellblank
_some of them go on to blow millions on "trying harder" on what is
fundamentally impossible_

:(

One of my big hopes for this is that fingers, I think, only have tendons going
into them for movement - so tracking those tendons in the palm/back of hand
covers the entire range of possible finger movements. If it's possible to type
on a virtual keyboard without feeling the keys, it should be possible to pick
up what you're "typing" from the tendon movement.

 _Most of the 'first class' ideas you think are being overlooked are actually
the second case. 3D interfaces_

3D interfaces are a daft idea; _this_ is _different_. I can say that I
completely believe that, and at the same time see it's exactly the sentiment
that drives people to the behaviour you describe. I guess the proof of whether
it really is different is whether it ever appears and works or not.

 _I've used a couple of exotic input devices or methods that work perfectly
fine but stand no chance of general acceptance because people have no interest
in learning how to use them._

Me too; I agree and slightly dislike that it is so.

------
webwright
This is one of those ideas that sounds wonderful, just like the touchscreen of
the iPhone sounded wonderful... But people are rightly skeptical of things
that claim to be game-changing which haven't launched.

The instant this exists and a reporter slips it on and can "type" 70 WPM with
minimal errors (with no learning curve) is the PR shoots straight up.

Until it's changed the life of a single user, it's science fiction. I'll cheer
'em on in the meantime (just like I'll cheer for TechCrunch's 'CrunchPad'),
but I'd go hoarse if I evangalized every game-changing product that hasn't
been built yet.

(Flying car? Jet Pack?)

------
brk
My guess is that it has not gotten a lot of traction because it appears to be
completely vaporware, and it's hard to get excited about something that
doesn't exist, and does not seem to be on a path to completion.

The Internet, and the VC startup world, is littered with fancy product
illustrations, mocked-up demos, and empty press releases. What makes this one
worthy of a fan-club above all the others?

~~~
wallflower
It might be somewhere past vaporware. There is a product demo video for 2009
where typing is demonstrated. However, even if it does work, it may not work
well enough (yet) for real-world uses. Future prototype iterations may well
improve dramatically.

Inventor Gunilla Alsiö's elevator pitch at Plugg '09 (one of 20 invited
startups out of 143 applicants at this Europe entrepreneur event).

"The movies [Minority Report, Johnny Mnemonic] are fiction but Senseboard is
real. We will let you try this yourself during lunchtime. Our business model
based on licensing, with the combination of licensing fees and senseboard
chips. We are focusing on the mobile gaming market."

<http://vimeo.com/3603806> (Starts @8:55, note, some of the other elevator
pitches are fascinating to watch - check out Myngle's @2:45)

In the demo video, the rate of typing (painfully slow!) shown seems to
indicate that the technology may not be fast and/or robust enough for coding
or _even_ email-composition typing needs.

"A first 0-series of the Senseboard(R) Gesture Recognition Technology has been
introduced and can be tested at MWC. A demo video is available for download on
at: <http://www.senseboard.com/video_0109/video.php> "

@1:17 - demo of using senseboard for Google earth navigation

@2:06 - virtual keyboard demo (note: continuity issues - video quality is low,
set is different from Google nav demo - leading me to suspect it might not be
demo'able live - if it was, why wouldn't they film it the same day/setting)

The video is 78mb and it has a weird, smooth jazz soundtrack. Don't want to
jump their bandwidth usage but they don't stream it. Maybe someone can
share/host it.

------
noonespecial
_I'm just tired of seeing what seems to be first class ideas like this
sidelined while streams of clone digital cameras, media players, GPS
receivers, cellphones and so on pour into the market as if the world wont be
satisfied until there's ten models for every human - and that needs to happen
yesterday!)_

It always seems that what could be built and hasn't been is so much better
than what can be built and is. This is how technology matures. The market
explores the new space with tons of releases with tons of features.
Eventually, the best features are evolved and incorporated into all models via
consumer selection. Sometimes this takes "ten models for every human" before
we come up with the _one_ model for every human.

The thing I've found about most of these sound-bite vaporware products that
are going to "change the world when its released", is that most suffer from
the 95% problem. The idea 95% works. But the 5% that doesn't makes it
unusable.

In this example, perhaps it works _just_ like a keyboard! The only thing we
haven't been able to solve yet is that it confuses j and n 25% of the time. So
its useless.

Many products get into the 95% phase, generate all of their buzz, tout their
impending, world changing release, and then flame out struggling for that last
5%. To make matters worse, their investors then sell the leftover company for
pennies to patent trolls who ensure that its not worth it for anyone else to
solve that last 5% either.

------
kqr2
If you are going to carry around a pocket projector, why not use the bluetooth
laser virtual keyboard. And best of all, it's not vaporware.

<http://www.thinkgeek.com/computing/keyboards-mice/8193/>

~~~
dsil
Looks very interesting, and relatively affordable...but, how are you supposed
to get it to hover in mid-air like it appears to need to be used?

------
anigbrowl
There are similar devices and ideas, aggregated here:
<http://www.patentstorm.us/patents/6670894.html>

Personally, I don't see much hope for something that requires you to maintain
a mental picture of a qwerty keyboard while you type. I do about 85 wpm with
10 fingers but when I try to type on the surface of my desk I just get lost,
even looking right at my keyboard 3 inches away from my fingers.

~~~
jodrellblank
Lack of feedback may be a big problem; fingers have no muscles in them, only
tendons, so the movement of your fingers could (I imagine) be accurately
sensed from tendons in your palm and the back of your hand.

But maybe moving over a keyboard requires feeling the keys in order to do so
consistently.

------
david927
The frustration is understandable. It's partly the problem of gate keepers.
Something like 20 publishers turned down J.K. Rowling's first Harry Potter
book. The people making the decisions on what to fund can be woefully out of
touch. What makes me sad is that they often don't try. I'm sick of seeing
silly Web 2.0 startups. At first I thought they were getting funding because
no one is working on hard problems -- but no. There are a lot of startups
taking on tough, game-changing problems; there's just not a lot of funding for
them. That makes me sick.

As for the device you mention as an example -- it would be much more amazing
and powerful if you could move it down to your wrist, so that they look like
wrist bands then combined it with an earbud microphone/speaker. If the
electronics were in the wrist bands, the cellphone as a separate device could
go away for a lot of people. I would definitely buy that.

------
ashleyw
When you create a patent, are you obligated to follow through with the
creation of the product/idea to keep the rights to it, and if so, do you have
a limit?

Or can the creator of this idea just wait for somebody else to create it, and
then sue for patent infringement? (if he has a patent, that is)

~~~
dsil
My guess is they tried for a while, and never managed to get a usable version
working well enough, and the company now exists as a portfolio of patents
waiting for someone else to improve it.

------
domdelimar
We all know this isn't the first nor the last thing that come before its time.
But even in this case I think all that is needed is a single person with
enough will and dedication to shake things up and at least move them in the
right direction. If that isn't you, and it certainly isn't me ;) (don't get me
wrong, I like the concept but I'm not really interested in using it... much
less in bringing it to masses), the world will just have to wait for someone
who is. Given that this product has the future. And I'd merely wish I could
try it out to see how good I'd be typing in midair :) - honestly. My main
problem with this thing is that I believe not many people would be able to use
it easily...

------
cmos
If it got the 'best product of 2001' at CES that pretty much guarantees it's
100% vapor.

Awards like that are a scam.. it's all about who you know + how much bs they
are willing to absorb. Since that time most high end trade shows require the
product to be shipping before getting an award, brought about because of
absurd products winning that never had a chance of seeing the light of day.

Even if the technology existed, and it was ivory soap accurate, no one would
use it. Those things you put on your hands just look lame, like you need hand
braces or something. I'd rather learn morse code and just tap my finger...

~~~
jodrellblank
_Those things you put on your hands just look lame_

The newer prototypes look more technical, less medical, and generally better.

------
lionheart
My biggest question is: does this work? Or are we sure it can be made to work?

It seems to me that interpreting your keystrokes from tendon movements would
be hard.

But if this can be done, I would buy one immediately.

------
jmatt
This is interesting. It's definitely a different take than the laser virtual
keyboard or the Wii Remote. What sort of advantages does this have over
hacking a Wii Remote? Is it more portable? Is it more sensitive? Arguably it's
design would work better in a mobile environment. When I look at recent
innovations in this sector (gestures/gyroscopes) I think the Wii is the
product that's made the biggest impact on the industry and the first to (at
least widely) release a product that does as advertised.

See <http://johnnylee.net/projects/wii/>

~~~
jodrellblank
_What sort of advantages does this have over hacking a Wii Remote?_

You can type - it picks up the movement of tendons in the palm and back of
your hand and tracks how your fingers are moving.

------
resdirector
Maybe spruce up your pitch? I skim read this Ask HN and went on to the next
article. Everything's a pitch in startup. Even this Ask HN.

