
Why Britain has ‘ghost trains’ - kposehn
http://www.bbc.com/future/story/20150723-why-britain-has-secret-ghost-trains
======
bodyfour
The article briefly mentioned it, but the main reasons these are kept is
maintenance and training. That's a far larger concern than the politics, but
it isn't as interesting. Hence the nickname "parliamentary trains" \-- people
love to believe that it's some crazy bureaucratic reason behind them when
they're usually very logical.

Some of these routes will probably never be viable on their own, but the
segments of track might be needed some day as a detour. For instance if a
bridge somewhere needed to be out of service for a year or something.

For example, one of the more famous "ghost trains" (since it's in London) is
the daily Paddington to West Ruislip service. Since they're both served by the
underground there wouldn't be much need for a mainline train between them. If
long-term work disrupted that connection they might want to temporarily run a
regular service on that line though.

If you just abandoned the track, you wouldn't know its condition when you
needed it. Just as important, the regulators wouldn't let you run passengers
using crew that hadn't been trained on that line.

So just running an occasional train and rotating staff through it, the line
and the skills are always kept sharp. Then if you suddenly need that bit of
track in an emergency it's ready to go.

And since you're going to run a train anyway, you might as well sell a few
tickets if people want to join you.

~~~
speeder
I am from Brazil, and I wish our politicians were "bureucratic" as UK
politicians regarding trains.

In the monarchy (yes, that long ago), the government believed railroads were
the future of the country, and invested in them heavily (in fact half of
current railroads in Brazil were built during the reign of the last emperor).

Later during the military dictatorship, the government again saw the point of
railroads, and started investing in them again.

Then during our redemocratization, the federal government ended owning lots of
railroad companies (example: The São Paulo railroads were given to the federal
government as payment because of the São Paulo bank debts with the fedearl
government), the federal government then went and shut down every single line
that looked unprofitable, even ones that were unprofitable for obvious reasons
(example: still under construction, thus zero revenue).

Now we need trains BADLY, but even to use old trains is impossible, for
example 0.5% of the country area has 40 million people (out of 200 million in
the country total), yet there is nowhere near enough trains for it, most of
the transportation is by road (including all the issues of ever increasing
absurd traffic, and accidents, one of the highest amounts in the world) or air
(São Paulo has the dubious distinction of highest number of helicopters in the
world, because road transport is so unsafe, because of accidents and crime,
that people that can afford going by helicopter go by helicopter).

My parents live in Valinhos, I live near a train station in São Paulo, the
train track near my home passes behind my parents home, yet I cannot do this
simple trip, because not only the track is overgrown and unmaintained, but the
government decided to repurpose some stations for other uses, and paved over
or cemented over the tracks, the sad thing is we have the tracks there, we
have the demand, and we have the trains (in storage, the military government
bought lots and lots and lots of then bleeding edge electric trains), but
everyone sees it as an almost impossible task to fix it.

Also comparing São Paulo subways to other countries is not even funny, São
Paulo city proper has 11 million people, this is São Paulo subway+trains:
[http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-N0nE1VbO69E/USpnqXhm5fI/AAAAAAAAAB...](http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-N0nE1VbO69E/USpnqXhm5fI/AAAAAAAAABQ/ebmzrYvDXlc/s1600/mapa+atual.png)

note this map has some other whole cities in it (Jundiaí is a city, also is
the city where the track is paved over... the Ruby track is the one that
passes behind my parents house, if it was still in use).

Now london:
[http://www.projectmapping.co.uk/Reviews/Resources/specialrep...](http://www.projectmapping.co.uk/Reviews/Resources/specialreports_2edb.London%20.gif)

Paris centre (not the whole city):
[http://www.urbanrail.net/eu/fr/paris/paris-centre-
map.png](http://www.urbanrail.net/eu/fr/paris/paris-centre-map.png)

Tokyo:
[http://www.bento.com/pix/subway/tokyosubway2011.png](http://www.bento.com/pix/subway/tokyosubway2011.png)

At least São Paulo is not bad as Salvador (4 million people, only the solid
red line currently exists, the rest is planned or under construction)
[http://www.tribunadabahia.com.br/upload/20141104015725_mapa-...](http://www.tribunadabahia.com.br/upload/20141104015725_mapa-
estacoes-metro-salvador.jpg)

Or Campinas (2 million people in the metro area, has several rail lines
already built, stations in almost all cities of the metro area and in the
biggest neighbourhoods, but has only a single train running, it is a coal
train, and most people using it are tourists wanting to have a train trip,
usually parents wanting to show their children how it is to travel by train).

~~~
danans
The Bay Area's rail transit map (population 7 million) isn't much to brag
about either: [https://rsnous.com/images/regional-
maps/bay_rail.gif](https://rsnous.com/images/regional-maps/bay_rail.gif)

------
deckiedan
As a Brit, personally, I reckon it's because the train system lost the ball
significantly last century.

Train tickets now are often _more_ than the cost of petrol to drive across the
country. So if you'd spend more on a train ticket, why not drive?

Sometimes it even cheaper to get a flight from Glasgow to London than it is to
get the train.

To get a ticket, a week in advance, to go from Carlisle (where I live) to
London costs roughly 120 pounds (that's 180 USD, ish).

It's crazy expensive, and the benefit really isn't there any more.

Goods wise, trains could / should have taken the same kind of approach that
the shipping industry did, with containers.

If our company (live events A/V stuff, mainly) is doing an event down south,
we should be able to call a train company, have them deliver a container (or
pick up one that we own) at our warehouse on a flat bed truck, we load it,
they take it to the train station, it get craned on, and then we minibus down
there the next day and have it delivered to the location. But no, it's easier
and cheaper for us to run our own bunch of trucks.

If there was a service like that, we'd use it.

~~~
fit2rule
Sounds like you Brits need to learn a few things from the Germans about trains
...

~~~
xioxox
Really? I live in Munich. Whenever I want to travel to other large German
cities, I've found flying to be much cheaper than going by train. The only
reasonably priced tickets seem to be the local ones. I don't understand how
people can afford train prices unless they have a discount or someone else
paid.

~~~
rmk2
A BahnCard 25 gives you 25% off journeys, can be combined with saving offers
and costs ~60€ per year. A BahnCard 50 gives you 50% off journeys but cannot
be combined with savings. I think it costs ~200€ per year. A BahnCard 100
gives you 100% off journeys, i.e. the only extra cost a journay may occur are
either seat reservation costs or the "Sprinter" extra for the fast train
Frankfurt<->Berlin, which is not included (and technically a seat reservation
anyway). This option costs ~3600€ per year or some such.

The point is, if you want to take the train, either book ahead (and maybe get
a BahnCard 25), or get one of the other two. I used to do a mere 2h journey a
bunch of times a year (as returns), and the BahnCard 50 easily paid for itself
in just 2 or 3 trips, while also offering fantastic flexibility, since it's
always 50% off the regular price, which is static.

That's how people afford trains. Also, with the BahnCards, you usually get a
free ticket for central public transport zones at your destination, for
example for Zone A in Berlin.

Just for your example, a single from Munich->Berlin costs 65€ with a BahnCard
50, i.e. 130€ return, booked right now. The booked ticket lets you ride at any
time within the next two days, so you are also not tied to a specific train
and it's no big deal if you arrive later at the station etc. (which is not the
case for special offers, which tie you to a specific train). 130€ return from
München Hbf to Berlin Hbf is really not that bad.

~~~
fit2rule
Great advice .. I used my DB50 card for many years to do weekend trips all
over that part of Europe from the Ruhr area (okay, mostly to Amsterdam, I
admit), and it was definitely a good investment.

------
EwanToo
I think BBC journalists run this story out whenever they're low on other work
to do, here's basically the same feature, exactly 3 years ago...

[http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-18644343](http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-18644343)

~~~
0xdeadbeefbabe
It's not just BBC journalists. I think they learned the technique from HN.

------
bloat
Then he said, she came from the country, he saw? To which she answered in the
affirmative.

‘By Parliamentary, this morning. I came forty mile by Parliamentary this
morning, and I’m going back the same forty mile this afternoon. I walked nine
mile to the station this morning, and if I find nobody on the road to give me
a lift, I shall walk the nine mile back to-night. That’s pretty well, sir, at
my age!’ said the chatty old woman, her eye brightening with exultation.

Dickens - Hard Times

~~~
waqf

      The idiot who, in railway carriages, 
      Scribbles on window panes, 
      We only suffer 
      To ride on a buffer 
      In Parliamentary trains.
    

— W. S. Gilbert, _" The Mikado"_

------
m-i-l
Better to have ghost trains than the short-sighted Beeching Cuts[0]. For
example, the town I grew up in once had two stations where it was possible to
catch trains to both Glasgow and Edinburgh, but by the 1960s these were both
closed, and now the roads are pretty clogged up with commuters every day, with
little hope of ever reopening the lines given much of the land was sold off
and redeveloped.

[0]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beeching_cuts](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beeching_cuts)

------
WalterBright
Before airline deregulation in the US, when routes and schedules and fares
were regulated, I often found myself on nearly empty flights. After
deregulation, when airlines were free to set routes, schedules and fares, the
flights are nearly always packed.

Looks like the same situation with British trains.

I also recall back in the 70s when the DOE regulated which gas stations got
how much gas to sell. The result was a patchwork of gluts and shortages across
the US. That ended immediately when Reagan abolished those regulations.

~~~
misterbwong
Yes, but the other side of the coin of airline deregulation is that there
fewer routes to smaller airports and/or they are more costly. There is a large
fixed cost associated with providing service to each airport and because of
this, airlines have decided to either hike up prices to make the route semi-
viable or stop service altogether.

While this may be good for the airline, it's not necessarily good for the
people that are now forced to drive multiple hours to the nearest airport.

I would think that something similar would happen if the trains were
deregulated.

~~~
_delirium
The U.S. partly mitigates this by subsidizing service to smaller airports, via
the $250m/yr Essential Air Service program [1]. This was part of the
deregulation bill, thrown in to mollify representatives of smaller towns and
rural areas, who otherwise would have opposed deregulation.

[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Essential_Air_Service](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Essential_Air_Service)

~~~
jordanthoms
And not a totally unreasonable approach if the politicians want to maintain a
specific capability, much better than making the entire market inefficient.

------
ISL
Buried within the article is an argument in support of wilderness:

 _“It has to be one of the maddest places we have both been to,” he says. “No
words can describe how isolated this place was.” The closest road was three
miles away; the only nearby structures were a shuttered pub and an old
windmill._

In the American West, Canada, Russia, and myriad places throughout the world,
it's not hard to get three miles away from a road.

Wild places are good for the soul.

~~~
jessaustin
If it had a pub and a windmill, I expect there was at least a jeep trail
running through. Otherwise how would the pub have resupplied or farmers gotten
grain to the mill? This would count as a "road" in the parts of North America
and Asia you're talking about. Therefore the "three mile" claim is bogus.

~~~
frobozz
My gut reaction to your question was to answer "by train". Another option
might (considering it's in Norfolk), by canal.

Then I thought I'd better look it up.

The comment in the article was about Berney Arms[1]. Looking on the map, it
looks like the station is indeed unserved by roads. However, the nearest road
does appear to be 500 metres away (much closer than three miles). The pub and
windmill are on that road, rather than at the roadless station.

The next junction along that road is about 2km away (still not 3 miles), and
the nearest meaningful junction (i.e. that gives you a choice of destination)
3.5km (still not 3 miles).

The nearest junction with an A road is about 3 miles away, following the road.
It is also the closest you can get with Google Streetview[2]

[1]
[https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place/Berney+Arms,+Great+Yarmo...](https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place/Berney+Arms,+Great+Yarmouth,+Norfolk+NR30/@52.5905832,1.6415008,2247m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m2!3m1!1s0x47da023462e42175:0x9f3730c75cdc3a57)

[2][https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@52.621769,1.651184,3a,75y,187...](https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@52.621769,1.651184,3a,75y,187.1h,77.67t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1suGPuWNtSZRNlLnmCAvU31A!2e0!7i13312!8i6656)

------
jacalata
Half of this article focuses on the tautological notion that since the term
ghost train is a made up one with no meaning that nobody in the railways
recognises, then it must be about a hidden thing that nobody knows about, and
you can tell this is so because nobody knows the term. Even the attempted
definition of "so infrequent as to be useless" appears not to fit the headline
run, which is once a day six times a week - I know packed commuter lines that
are less frequent!

~~~
jon-wood
It seems that no one knew the term because the one used in the industry is a
Parliamentary Train.

------
jloughry
Thinking tactically, rather than strategically, has anyone asked the
dispatchers? Rail networks are usually not partitioned (in the graph theory
sense); moving equipment around for reasons of wear levelling, capacity,
maintenance, replacement, or traffic control might account for some ghost
trains. After a major snowstorm, airlines need to reposition equipment to meet
schedules; they hate to fly aircraft empty, but they do it.

The same reasoning applies to road freight, pipelines, and probably fresh
fruit and cut flowers too.

~~~
jcranmer
The article is talking about revenue runs whereas the kind of movements you're
talking about are non-revenue runs (or deadheading). On non-revenue runs,
there's no need to provide service, unlike these ghost trains, where service
still needs to be provided even if there is little or no uptake.

------
te_platt
In the late 80s I flew from Santiago, Chile to Antofagasta on a quite nice LAN
Chile 737. There were about 10 passengers. One of the best flights I've ever
been on. I'm not sure what the need was to the government to keep that flight
going or if it's still like that.

~~~
privong
Nowadays a lot of those flights between Santiago and Antofagasta stop in La
Serena. When I was on it a few months ago, the flight was full both ways. I
assume that flight is important for mining operations, and nowadays for
tourism.

------
tiatia
Europe needs some huge infrastructure projects. I wish the EU would make some
huge investments - yes, I know it is socialism. Why not connect all the major
hubs? Why should it not be possible to go from Lisbon to Moscow by high speed
train? Build 4 tracks, two for transportation of passengers, 2 for freight.
The Transrapid was a stupid idea but rail is an established technology and can
be improved easily.

Some of the Technology is there already, for example to reduce the huge
traffic on the European roads:
[http://www.cargobeamer.eu/Technology-849174.html](http://www.cargobeamer.eu/Technology-849174.html)

Should be no problem, to have automatic coupling/decoupling of parts of the
train, separating at major hubs going to different destinations.
[http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/xpl/login.jsp?tp=&arnumber=671327...](http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/xpl/login.jsp?tp=&arnumber=6713273&url=http%3A%2F%2Fieeexplore.ieee.org%2Fxpls%2Fabs_all.jsp%3Farnumber%3D6713273)

Also, Trains are run by electricity which can be created through nuclear
energy (Thorium reactors in the future etc.). I see a point in the future,
where we DON'T have the resources to build such an infrastructure anymore:
[http://physics.ucsd.edu/do-the-math/2011/10/the-energy-
trap/](http://physics.ucsd.edu/do-the-math/2011/10/the-energy-trap/)

And yes, I know, the Nazis thought up similar things:
[http://jalopnik.com/5819038/hitlers-giga-railway-from-
paris-...](http://jalopnik.com/5819038/hitlers-giga-railway-from-paris-to-the-
caspian-sea)
[http://www.breitspurbahn.de/3000.html](http://www.breitspurbahn.de/3000.html)

------
GrecoKL
Slightly off-topic but the Royal Mail used to run a network of nine 'Mail
Rail' stations underneath London with small trains that moved general mail
around. They were discovered in 2011 by a group of photographers exploring
abandoned tube stations.

If you want more detail:

[http://www.placehacking.co.uk/2011/04/24/security-breach-
lon...](http://www.placehacking.co.uk/2011/04/24/security-breach-london-mail-
rail/)

------
akshat_h
I have always wondered what the Hogwarts express was being used for between
the annual trips. It seems to be a perfect example of a "ghost train".

------
sireat
I do wish Baltics had something similar to ghost trains but I understand it is
the privilege of richer countries.

The train infrastructure has fallen badly since Soviet times and it will be
another 20 years until Rail Baltica
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rail_Baltica](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rail_Baltica)
will be completed(that is politics and economics willing).

In 1930s you could take a train from Riga to Berlin in 14 hours(I have the
original poster), from what I understand the only way you can make the same
route is by going Riga-Moscow-Berlin which is not very convenient or making
taking a lot of local trains
[http://www.seat61.com/Latvia.htm#Moving](http://www.seat61.com/Latvia.htm#Moving)
on

------
rrrx3
These are the fascinating things that keep me coming back. Are there any ghost
routes in the US that anyone knows of?

~~~
ItsDeathball
Pretty much every Amtrak line outside of the Northeast or the West Coast is a
"ghost route" in the sense the article describes. I took the Sunset Limited as
a kid once from New Orleans to Mobile. Aside from my dad and my brother, there
was one other passenger on the train. That leg of the route was cancelled
after Katrina washed out the rail bridges in 2005; they've since been
restored, but the train service hasn't.

~~~
pm24601
You should get out more. My family and I ride Amtrak from California to
Colorado. That 1 train is always busy. In a first-world country, there would
be 2 trains/day instead of the single train.

~~~
yokohama11
There's not really any market justification for running it in the first place
(aside from what value it has for scenic purposes), nor is there ever likely
to be.

A flight from Denver to San Francisco is $150-200 roundtrip and takes about 2
hours. A train from Denver to Emeryville (the train doesn't even go into the
city) takes about 33 hours and costs $220 and hemorrhages money so badly that
each passenger is a loss of $150+ even with that price.

You could dump 100 billion into it, making it true HSR and not having any
intermediate stops, and it still won't be time competitive, and obviously
won't be cost competitive. The distances are too large.

I support the HSR corridors, and more commuter services in the urban/semi-
urban areas. But with the long distances and zero population density of most
of the American West, the cross-country routes often make little sense beyond
basically being a long scenic railway.

~~~
pm24601
"That 1 train is always busy"

As someone who rides the train I can tell you that you are very, very wrong.

In the winter lots of people ride it to Reno.

Families ride it from Winnemucca, NV to Green River, UT. Kids ride it (by
themselves) between Reno and Winnemucca.

Lots of families ride it that can't afford the airfare for all of them. Or
they have too much luggage, or they live in rural areas that are hours away
from the nearest major airport.

Unlike an airplane that is point to point - the train connects people in the
in-between places to other in-between places.

Between SFO and Chicago, Amtrak sells each seat in the zepher about 3-4x.

I know that the train will be crowded between bay area and reno ( filled with
people that don't exist apparently ). It will empty out at Reno. Gradually
refill across nevada, utah and western colorado. Empty out again in Denver.
And then refill to chicago.

And yes I have met people who are taking the train all the way.

Traveling by train is way more than just getting there.

And that airfare from SFO-DEN - that is fantasy - esp around christmas.

~~~
jacalata
He says it is not cost effective to run. You said he is wrong, but don't seem
to have addressed the same topic at all.

~~~
pm24601
Hmmm - I believe I did. From a single person's perspective: it is expensive to
fly from winnemucca,nv to say green river, ut.

And as far as the whole "does not pay" / "subsidies" \- that is a nonsense
argument because no one applies that standard to the interstate highway system
or to airports.

