
China’s assault on Cathay Pacific - hker
https://www.economist.com/leaders/2019/08/22/why-chinas-assault-on-cathay-pacific-should-scare-all-foreign-firms
======
groundlogic
[https://www.newsweek.com/cathay-ceo-refused-name-hong-
kong-p...](https://www.newsweek.com/cathay-ceo-refused-name-hong-kong-
protesters-chinese-government-named-himself-instead-resigned-1455371)

> The Taiwan News claimed that Cathay Pacific CEO Rupert Hogg's decision to
> resign last week came after he refused to name names to the Chinese
> government when he was asked to provide a list of employees who were
> involved in the Hong Kong protests.

> China's Civil Aviation Administration ordered Cathay to provide a list of
> employees who were involved in a recent protest. He was also ordered to
> suspend the employees. According to the Taiwan News, Hogg provided the
> list—but it included only one name: his own.

> His resignation was first announced by CCTV, China's state-run television
> station, 30 minutes before Cathay Pacific announced Hogg had stepped down.

~~~
wendyshu
(Some say this version of events is an untrue rumor.)

~~~
metaphorical
Who is "some"?

~~~
wendyshu
The first hit on Google for "Rupert Hogg" gives a HK journalist claiming the
story is a canard.

~~~
groundlogic
Jack Ma's and SCMP's neutrality is a bit up in the air at the moment, I feel.
Last time I looked at that story it was just trying to sow doubt, without any
evidence to the contrary. I'm sure you'd inform us in great detail if that had
changed.

~~~
wendyshu
I literally said "some say". Chill out. I totally agree the SCMP is biased.

------
simonh
>Chinese inspectors have started screening the phones of Cathay crew for anti-
Beijing material.

If that doesn't persuade ordinary Hong Kongers to love and trust the mainland
authorities, I don't know what will.

~~~
toomuchtodo
If you’re a Hong Kong resident, what are your options? Can you flee the
country with a visa to a first world country with rights less under pressure
from a totalitarian state?

Edit: I genuinely appreciate all of the replies to this comment as this
humanitarian crisis unfolds.

~~~
theseadroid
HK allows dual citizenship and there are around 300,000 Canadians living in HK
right now[1]. Not sure about other nationalities. And I think HK passport can
go to many countries visa free or visa on arrival[2]. So in a sense many
protesters do have a plan b if needed.

1\. [https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/unrest-in-hong-kong-
fue...](https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/unrest-in-hong-kong-fuels-
speculation-of-spike-in-re-return-migration-to-canada)

2\.
[https://www.immd.gov.hk/eng/service/travel_document/visa_fre...](https://www.immd.gov.hk/eng/service/travel_document/visa_free_access.html)

~~~
seanmcdirmid
The protesters are more working class than the richer HKers with multiple
passports. Sure, they can leave, but it is much harder for them to establish
themselves in a new country. They can buy a plane ticket, but then what?

~~~
chaostheory
They can do what the Chinese have done since the 19th century: move and adapt.
It's what my family did. Easier said than done, but I feel it's pretty
ingrained now when you can even find Chinese families in places like Africa.

~~~
throwaway2048
It was much easier to move somewhere in the 19th century if you had the money.

Its essentially impossible to move to another 1st world country without years
(or decades) of process + usually a highly valued university degree these days

~~~
chaostheory
Doesn't matter. imo Chinese people can still adapt. It's part of the culture.
My family came to the US as illegal aliens with no money and poor education
(their degrees weren't of much use). We still made it work. I know it's
anecdotal, but there are a lot of anecdotes throughout Asia, Europe, the
Americas, Africa, and even in the Middle East (it was surreal when I met a
Chinese guy from Saudi Arabia who was looking for a potential 7th wife).

EDIT: it wasn't easy immigrating the US in the 19th century

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-
Chinese_sentiment_in_the_...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-
Chinese_sentiment_in_the_United_States)

~~~
FabHK
Don't understand why GP is downvoted. Of course Chinese people (like many
others) can adapt, but how are you going into a country and stay there
legally? For most people, asylum is hardly an option (though Germany has
granted asylum to several leaders of the HK protests). If you don't go via
asylum, you have to go via normal immigration routes, and they are normally
either investment or skills based these days - you need lots of money or
excellent education. You cannot just go and live in any country you want
anymore (for most people).

~~~
chaostheory
> but how are you going into a country and stay there legally?

The same way startups figure out how to survive and eventually profit: by
continuously adapting and continuously looking for opportunity. In our case,
some of my relatives saved up enough "under the counter" money to pay a
citizen to marry them until they were able to get a green card; after which
they divorced. Others just married citizens. Others got enough education to
get a work visa (I don't remember the details). You get the picture. It's a
waste of time and energy, dwelling on what you don't have vs how to accomplish
what you need to happen. I'm not saying that you should be ignorant of
obstacles and challenges (you need to know what they are), but you need to
focus on the openings & opportunities to get through. This is a
generalization, but I feel that most if not all Asian cultures have this same
spirit.

Here's a modern example.

[https://www.scmp.com/lifestyle/article/1774417/how-modern-
da...](https://www.scmp.com/lifestyle/article/1774417/how-modern-day-chinese-
migrants-are-making-new-life-italy)

I didn't downvote anyone on this thread

~~~
FabHK
Ok, that's really funny. It would never in a million years occur to me to pay
someone to marry me so I could live in some country. And, yes, some recent
startups have skirted or crossed the line to illegality.

My point remains - nowadays (unlike a century ago, if I'm not mistaken), the
majority of people can not choose in which country to live (legally, at any
rate).

~~~
chaostheory
The past is often romanticized, but the reality is that it was never easy.

[https://www.huffpost.com/entry/american-chinatowns-
history_n...](https://www.huffpost.com/entry/american-chinatowns-
history_n_6090692)

I didn't say that your point was invalid. I'm just pointing out that when
you're desperate enough to escape an authoritarian regime or other dangers,
legality isn't as important of a consideration. There's plenty of grey areas
to work in. ie if there's a will, there's a way

------
idlewords
China is applying a lot of pressure on Hong Kongers right now, including
searching devices at the border for any signs of protest photos. The Hong Kong
police have requested Octopus card records (the mass transit card that is
linked to individual user IDs) and CCTV footage of the airport protests last
week. There is evidence of information sharing between Hong Kong police and
mainland authorities.

The implied threat is that anyone who participates in protests risks their
livelihood and prospects of future education, and that major companies in Hong
Kong will not be allowed to remain apolitical, but must choose sides.

These pressure tactics are intended to break the Hong Kong protests, and while
taken very seriously by Hong Kongers, have so far failed to achieve that aim.

~~~
chrischen
I don’t think border searches like this are out of the norm even by Western
standards.

~~~
tptacek
The likelihood of a US border search that turns up protest materials costing
you your degree or your next 5 job prospects is essentially 0.

------
AFascistWorld
Samsung magically fell to zero market share in China in the span of 2 to 3
years, that's a warning to any company doing business in China, now they are
targeting Fedex over the alleged intentional diversion to the US of some
Huawei packages, when China is angry at Korea, Lotte and Samsung became
sacrificial lambs to the pent-up ire, Fedex and maybe some other American
campanies may be the new ones (Amazon narrowly escaped the witchhunt of anti-
China items since they exited China themself just months ago).

~~~
throwaway2048
Yep, any western company that thinks the Chinese government is going to allow
them to have a large market share in China long term is straight up delusional
(or thinking so short term they don't care at all)

Company after company has been raided for IP and forced out of China, stop
falling for the siren song.

~~~
chrischen
Apple still has a large market share in China. Maybe Samsung just sucks and
couldn’t compete against Huawei? Only reason Huawei hasn’t beat out Samsung in
the US is because of anti-Huawei sentiment in the US.

~~~
rhegart
That’s not true...Huawei stole from Nortel and it’s just that tech initially.
Samsung was doing great before the forced anti Samsung protests (Huawei was
already 1 at the time).

~~~
generatorguy
i'm a former nortel employee. so sad to see people lose their houses and
pensions due to chinese theft. The hacking wasn't even publicized as a warning
that other companies could heed - get your security in order, be careful with
your IP, or you will go from 140,000 employees to a small cadre of lawyers and
accountants managing the pittance that is left over. But at least none of the
management at Nortel was embarrassed by the bad publicity of getting owned by
the chinese and their inability to do anything about it.

------
dangjc
Why don't we form a new WTO, without China or other dictatorships, and only
allow in democracies that are liberal or liberalizing? There's no point in
opening our arms to China if they aren't moving on the right track anymore
towards becoming a free and fair society.

~~~
theseadroid
Potentially because people have different understanding of what a free and
fair society is.

~~~
chronic829
> Potentially because people have different understanding of what a free and
> fair society is.

Simple.

Give people a choice which society they're allowed to live in. China currently
does not do that.

~~~
theseadroid
Totally agree. My question is which country does do that? I have voted once by
moving. But I still don't have the choice to live in a society that I think is
free and fair.

I wish I can live in a society where inequality is minimal, where people work
and innovate not because of money, but because they enjoy their work and enjoy
innovation. I wish I and my fellow citizens can have universal health and
dental care, free higher education. I wish a political system without bribing
disguised as lobbying, without innovation-killing monopoly. I wish we have
similar chance of being happy irrelevant of how rich our parents are. A place
where mental illness people are treated, instead of being free to be on the
street. Where I can freely roam the city at any hour without the fear of being
robbed or raped. Where the urban/transit design makes people free from using
cars if they feel not like to. Where I don't have to work as a housing slave.

Now, if my view of a free and fair society is a majority view, why there's
isn't one that I can go? If my view is a minority one, then I still don't have
the choice in a democracy isn't it?

------
spacehunt
And today, Cathay Dragon sacked the head of the flight attendant's union.

[https://news.rthk.hk/rthk/en/video-
gallery.htm?vid=1476318](https://news.rthk.hk/rthk/en/video-
gallery.htm?vid=1476318)

~~~
hker
The head of the flight attendant’s union was fired by Cathay Dragon, and
according to her press conference regarding the termination [1], the case was
based on her friends-only stories on Facebook ([1], 48:10 in Cantonese) which
showed some post-it notes saying Happy Birthday to her colleagues ([1], 48:45
in English)—post-it notes are common in Hong Kong’s Lennon Wall—but it remains
to be seen if there is enough grounds for termination.

[1]:
[https://www.facebook.com/standnewshk/videos/646850612491620/](https://www.facebook.com/standnewshk/videos/646850612491620/)

------
dragonsh
It's sad to see a company suffer the cost of nationalism. This is what happens
when nationalism trumps human to human connections.

Protest in Hong Kong has descended into nationalism and sovereignty issue for
1.4 billion people. Majority wins even though there is some protection
guaranteed in most nation and there are plenty of examples in recent days
where majority wins. In social media it's majority wins, minority is always
relegated to corner.

I hope it resolves amicably.

------
mytailorisrich
I don't know if this is a coincidence but Cathay Pacific is symbolic of
colonial times.

The founders were not Chinese, the main shareholder has always been British,
the CEO until a week ago was British. It's always been a western (anglosphere)
company operating in China/Asia, not a Chinese company and perhaps the Chinese
authorities want to make clear that it is now a Chinese company.

~~~
bhhaskin
Not sure if this is a coincidence, but your account is less than 65 days old
and seem to mainly to post comments that are pro-Beijing. It's entirely
possible that you have a bit of a bias in regards to Cathay Pacific.

~~~
mytailorisrich
Wow... Why the gratuitous personal attack? Am I guilty of a thought crime?

And how are most of my comments "pro-beijing"? The world is complex and trying
to have a measured approach and to understand the different points of view is
not being pro or anti anything.

HN promotes intellectual curiosity, not narrow-mindedness.

~~~
xster
This is a fascinating stanford prison experiment level social experiment
spearheaded into the mainstream by twitter, facebook, youtube. I guess
religious wars takes away the burden of petty intellectualism we've been
trying so hard to get rid of.

------
hker
It seems like the most dangerous threat to Cathay is the following line from
the article:

> China’s airline regulator declared it unsafe

Based on other sources it means that Cathay would be forbidden to enter
China's airspace. It entails much more than not being able to land in China:
since the airspace of Hong Kong is surrounded by that of China, it is
virtually impossible _not_ to enter China's airspace when using the only
international airport in Hong Kong. Being forbidden to enter China's airspace
means not being able to fly to and from Hong Kong, a death spell for Cathay.

~~~
y2kenny
If China is using "safety" as a political weapon, I think other countries need
to respond with sanction. The idea of safety is not some abstract concept.
Safety is an objective measures with international norm, standards and
processes.

------
cdiamand
Can anyone recommend a good book on China, or modern geopolitics?

~~~
silentmajority1
Not trolling, just read 1984 or animal farm. It’s just the same story

~~~
cdiamand
Thanks, I've read those and they're great, but I'm looking for something
that's less of an analogy. Something that puts China in the context of modern
geopolitics. Preferably helping me understand their development in the last
century.

~~~
cltsang
In that case I'd recommend

The Hundred-Year Marathon: China's Secret Strategy to Replace America as the
Global Superpower [0] by Hudson Institute's China expert.

and

Unrestricted Warfare: China's Master Plan to Destroy America [1]

These are rather hawkish but unfortunately also nailing the truth.

[0] [https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/20696000-the-hundred-
yea...](https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/20696000-the-hundred-year-
marathon)

[1]
[https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/855077.Unrestricted_Warf...](https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/855077.Unrestricted_Warfare)

~~~
pm90
Any emergent superpower will want to replace the existing one. China hawks
seem to rule Washington but Chinas prosperity has been beneficial for the rest
of the world by decreasing the costs of electronics and manufactured goods. It
goes without question though that the largest and most populous countries on
earth will rapidly grow (barring geopolitical events that completely break the
system) and eventually attain the status of coequal powers, if they manage to
not start more wars.

------
ra7
[https://outline.com/NG6tPU](https://outline.com/NG6tPU)

~~~
nh
How does outline work? how do they get around the login feature

~~~
parliament32
If they told you that, the target sites would find a way to block it.
Obscurity is just another weapon in this advertising-and-bloat-blocking arms
race.

~~~
AFascistWorld
Actually it's hard to block them, since they just need to cache every new
article once, and you can't block a user just coz he accessed every new
article.

------
dekhn
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qwest#Refusal_of_NSA_surveilla...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qwest#Refusal_of_NSA_surveillance_requests)

------
ngcc_hk
The assault is real enough not just executives are gone and some employees are
resigned (or fired?) due to their support of hk protestor. Not sure anyone has
been fired if they post support of the police. But a related firm dragon air
has top Union lady fired after confirming her holding a Facebook account.

The power of china given its economic power and land mass and no of people
should wake up people. Unless there is a way to constrain it, if should be
contained one way or the other.

------
joyeuse6701
This should be a notification for all companies, it is time to think about
more than profits. This sort of behavior must not be enabled by continued
business with the Chinese state.

------
carapace
Does this scare YC China?

[https://blog.ycombinator.com/yc-china-qi-
lu/](https://blog.ycombinator.com/yc-china-qi-lu/)

~~~
timerol
Almost certainly yes. But more importantly, they are probably never going to
say anything about it publicly, so that they don't face backlash.

~~~
AFascistWorld
Just found out that HN is no longer accessible in China, and now you have to
pass reCAPTCHA to log in.

[http://ping.chinaz.com/news.ycombinator.com](http://ping.chinaz.com/news.ycombinator.com)

------
rdlecler1
This is getting ridiculous. There’s too many paywalled articles posted on HN
and the web link is no longer a reliable work around. Bad user experience is
just going to drive people away. Please think about reworking your algorithm
otherwise comments are just going to be based in the title since few people
can actually read it. Yes, I realize this is going to get downvoted because of
posting policy but I’m willing to take the karma damage to try to improve the
community before it’s too late.

~~~
mrighele
The practical solution (which is what i do) is to flag a submission if the
article cannot be read. The result will be that the article will be flagged
(unless enough HNers pay for that website's subscription so it is ok for it to
be shared)

------
neonate
[http://archive.is/tAfRq](http://archive.is/tAfRq)

------
AimForTheBushes
Honestly, this shouldn't surprise anyone.

------
ETHisso2017
As opposed to Trump's or Thiel's assault on Google?

~~~
vernie
Thiel is just trying to find out if Alphabet's life sciences division has made
any advances in eyebrow regrowth.

~~~
patrioticaction
He’s probably just mad he couldn’t sell surveillance tools to China like
Google does.

------
samstave
They should make a backup of the phone and then reset it to factory defaults
then restore the backup once out of the country.

Does the chinese gov have backdoor access to gmail/gdrive?

~~~
shawnz
There is still the possibility that border agents could implant devices with a
persistent backdoor. Especially if the devices are taken out of your sight
during the checks

~~~
samstave
Well the nsa has been doing that on intercepted cisco devices for literally
three decades.

Basically you need to assume no privacy whatsoever but at the same time, still
stand the fuck up for free speech.

Fu k all authoritarians.

Recall when jetpack (reddit founders) were trying to sell sentiment
manipulation to the government?

Where the fuck is palantir these days?

Twitter is the shithole of the internet.

Reddit is now compromat by tencent

Voat.co is compromised

8chan is gone

4chan is also uselessly trustworthy (although i admit i have been impressed
over the years as to some of the things they have accomplished) ((my secret
conspiracy on that is there are many intels on 4chan that know how to post
true-anon and reveal shit))

I personally feel really bad for all my interest in the cyberpunk future i
thought we were heading for - but instead we built digital 1984.

------
devoply
I have said it before but all of this is pretty classic fascist behavior where
loyalty to the corporate state is demanded without question. This is for all
serving purposes a monster that the West created. I just worry about what this
looks like going forward, where we have this huge massive superpower which
acts this way and can't be questioned.

~~~
erikpukinskis
No disagreements with your base assessment, but how did the west create this
situation?

China has a longer continuous timeline than the western powers by far. Are the
current political moires there not another node on that chain?

~~~
cmrdporcupine
I won't say "the west" because I think it's really "capitalism", but

Global capitalism created this situation by deepening trade relationships with
China to the point that we're all dependent on them to the point that there's
very little leverage over their international behaviour.

Look at how the PRC is behaving against Canada right now. Illegal torture-like
detention of two of innocent Canadian citizens in China, in retaliation for
the very mild house arrest (for extradition) of a Huawei executive, something
Canada _had_ to do (treaty) on US request.

How they behave domestically (against Hong Kong citizens for example), yes,
that's another question.

~~~
eli_gottlieb
That is absolute bullshit. If Western countries had _refused_ to trade with
China for human-rights reasons, we'd be hearing accusations of economic
imperialism! Now we're responsible for their ultra-nationalist authoritarian
capitalism because we _don 't_ impose our imperial authority on them?

~~~
devoply
See anyone saying anything against Western countries for not trading with
Iran, Venezuela, or North Korea?

~~~
notyourday
It is a rather popular position among the American left, especially the one
represented by Bernie Sanders, Elizabeth Warren, and AOC.

------
llIIlIlIllIIlIl
> When the Chinese aviation authority, absurdly, accused the airline of
> imperilling safety because its employees had joined the protests, Cathay
> dumped its chief executive.

Question: Is there even remotely a legitimate security concern here? Let's say
in a hypothetical scenario, the unrest spirals out of control into a state of
complete desperation. The HK government and the CCP refuse to compromise on
any of the five demands, and the protestors refuse to stand down.

Let's say politically polarized HK pilots and cabin crew are flying a plane
full of mainlanders.

Would you be 100% comfortable being a passenger on that plane as a mainlander?

~~~
spacehunt
If this is the case, seeing that there are lots of people around the world who
are sympathizing with Hong Kong protesters, shouldn't the security directive
also apply to every airline worldwide that have mainland Chinese among their
passengers?

~~~
llIIlIlIllIIlIl
Yeah that could be one possible solution. Not allowing Cathay flights over
mainland China could be considered another.

