
Paris’ Problem with the Dead - Vigier
https://www.historytoday.com/reviews/paris-problem-dead-0
======
Iv
", at least in advanced capitalist nations such as the UK and the US, where
the processes of secularisation have recently been distinctly uneven, we don’t
quite know how to behave in places that, in Erin-Marie Legacey’s phrase, make
space for the dead. I can remember provoking a similar morally outraged
reaction when, a decade ago, I took my small children to the local cemetery
for a picnic"

I... what?

Atheist, raised by atheist parents in France, being respectful in a cemetery
is not about religious education. It is about empathy and not being an
asshole.

People who go there are most likely mourning. That's the last place where it
is appropriate to bring kids playing.

And that author, talking about "advanced capitalist nations" like UK was one
and France was stuck, like he seems to be, in the 19th century...

A lot of things happened in France between the revolution (1789) and the first
stable republic (1871). A lot of it had to do with religion and monarchism,
which were highly political. Secularism would really reign triumphantly only
at the very beginning of the 20th century with the 1905 law of separation
between the church and the state and this has been a very crucial turning
point.

Talking about 19th century religious sentiment in France won't be relevant if
you ignore the secularization process that has happened during the 20th
century.

Something, dare I say, the "advanced nation of UK", with its official religion
and archbishops having a voice in legislative matters, has never gone through.

~~~
flukus
> Atheist, raised by atheist parents in France, being respectful in a cemetery
> is not about religious education.

Doesn't the burial itself have religious roots even when it's no longer
administered by a church? Anecdotally, there has been a recent trend away from
cemeteries altogether now that the religious reasoning isn't there, with
people having there ashes scattered somewhere meaningful or kept with family.

> People who go there are most likely mourning. That's the last place where it
> is appropriate to bring kids playing.

The last "funeral" I went to was an ashes scattering at the beach, which is
basically a huge playground with kids running around everywhere. It didn't
detract from the mourning.

~~~
Iv
I am not talking about funerals, which are weird one-off social events. I am
talking about the typical crowd going to a cemetery. When you "have something
to do" there it usually involves mourning and a trip to memory lane. You want
some peace and a meditative atmosphere.

It is not about the deceased, it is not about the magical fluff around the
funerals, it is about the living and their grief.

Bringing kids to play in the middle of cemetery is to me like bringing them in
the middle of a library with a lot of people deep into their books.

If you do that, you are an asshole. It is not about religion. It could be
about culture, but I want to believe that what I am saying is pretty obvious
to most Americans as well.

~~~
lostlogin
This is going to vary across cultures. I have seen cemetery picnics in South
American cities, the UK, France and here in New Zealand. There were many many
families at weekends at cemeteries in Chile.

It seems that family picnics at the cemetery used to be common in the US too.

It wouldn’t be appropriate during a funeral, but why is it not ok outside that
time if it isn’t disrespecting graves or mourners?
[https://www.google.co.nz/amp/s/www.atlasobscura.com/articles...](https://www.google.co.nz/amp/s/www.atlasobscura.com/articles/picnic-
in-cemeteries-america.amp)

~~~
Iv
"if it isn’t disrespecting graves or mourners?"

Kids shouting are not compatible with typical mourning, sorry. Would you let
your kids play in the middle of a reading room or a meditation session?

Sure, some people do that in all cultures. And across all cultures, we use
different expression to convey the sentiment "they are being assholes".

~~~
coldtea
> _Kids shouting are not compatible with typical mourning, sorry_

That's like your opinion.

To quote a famous playwright: "Pardon him. Theodotus: he is a barbarian, and
thinks that the customs of his tribe and island are the laws of nature.”

~~~
Iv
Well, we are in front of two different cultural habits then: one that requires
quietness and one that does not. The second one is incompatible with the first
one.

You can't claim to be respectful of other's cultural habits if you insist on
using yours knowing they are incompatible.

And I'd like to point out that the author of the article presents (what I
believe to be) the French typically accepted attitude of quietness in cemetery
as the result of being a "less advanced capitalist society" where secularism
is less developed. Which is a laughable claim done by someone who obviously
does not know the history of secularism is France after the 19th century or
the demographics of religions there.

And gosh, I do have a young kid and I know how noisy he can get without him
meaning any harm. And I do see other parents oblivious to the noise of their
own kids. Seriously, that's not about cultural differences. That's about
understanding that not everyone developed the tolerance to your kids behavior
that you develop during the first years.

Imposing your kids to other people, especially when they want to focus on
something else, is an asshole thing to do. That's the case in France, and
that's the case in any culture that does not elevate kids-breeding to a cult
that needs to be protected at any cost.

------
paggle
Ultimately the dead cannot have a permanent resting place on this earth. There
are 100 billion people who have died, if it takes 25 square feet to bury one,
the space occupied by the dead will eclipse that occupied by the living.

After 100 years or so burial plots should be recycled.

~~~
sametmax
Burial is something that humanity should be able to let go as a whole. It
pollutes. It wastes resources and space. We need to find other ways to mourn,
remember and symbolize. Ways that will let us treat the body as compost would
be ideal, but hard to sell to the general population.

------
aoki
There’s a relatively recent novel set during the removal of Les Innocents to
the new catacombs (Pure, by Andrew Miller). A good read, and like many
discussions of these events, it makes the obvious connection to the moribund
Ancien Regime.

