
British business ‘benefits massively from EU’ - nailer
http://www.strongerin.co.uk/british_business_benefits_massively_from_eu#GOOLYXsYUY1ztm8R.97
======
jklepatch
So basically we have UK businesses selling to europe expressing their interest
in keeping 0 tax trade agreements with europe. Their position makes sense from
their perspective.

How about UK businesses which DO NOT export and have to compete with low cost
european countries instead?

How about UK employees which also have to compete with low cost labor from low
cost european countries?

Is this also "great for the UK?"

~~~
MrLeftHand
Sorry, but is it the EUs fault that UK businesses tend to hire cheaper
European labor? Does the EU tell you that you have to hire the Romanian guy
instead of the British? Is there a law enforced by the EU to do so?

And people forget that cheap labor creates lower prices on the market. Are you
willing to pay more even double the price for a commodity just because it was
made by non-immigrants?

Not to mention, that most immigrants aren't staying for long term. They go do
the work, generate GDP and after a few years they go back to friends and
family. Very few have the intentions to stay.

Is it the EUs fault that British stores and businesses buy the goods from low
cost EU countries? If you would have a grocery store, would you buy and sell
food that was produced in Britain, but comes with a much higher cost, or would
you get it from somewhere else cheaper and get it without the costs of
shipping from country to the other because of the free trade?

The EU helps everyone, but it's not their fault if businesses use these to
their advantage.

Hate the player and not the game, as they say.

~~~
threeseed
I always think that bringing up the price of goods argument is not always the
best approach when talking about immigrant labour.

The fact is that in most Western countries (a) the workforce is ageing
rapidly, (b) birth rates are low and dropping and (c) young people simply
don't want cheap, low skilled jobs.

So people just need to understand that without immigrant labour people aren't
going to be able to rely on the quality of the life in the future. More
specifically their pension, social security and decent hospitals.

~~~
MrLeftHand
You're right, but this is one part of the equitation.

The cheap labor will give you a lower price at the end. If it wouldn't then
you wouldn't see the 'made in China' text on literally everything.

There was a massive debate about immigrants picking British strawberries. And
a lot of the people were going crazy why the farmers don't employ British
workers and that EU can go and fuck itself.

It's fine and all, but they forget a lot of things. It's not the EU who told
the farmer to get cheap immigrant labor. The farmer saves lots of money
because of the cheap labor. This keeps the price down of the strawberries when
you go buy a pack in a store. The work is seasonal, so it's not a permanent
job and keeps the people occupied only for a couple of weeks.

Some people get a fit when they see a small pack of British strawberries for 2
pounds. Imagine how enraged they would be to have the same amount for 4.

These people, who always blame someone else then their own people (for
instance why aren't you blaming the British farmer, business, whatever) would
be the first ones crying why are the things more expensive now?!

The whole economy is like nature, you take out one small part and everything
changes.

In brexit I see the typical 'The True Scotsman Fallacy'. or should we call it
the 'True British Fallacy' now? We are great and everybody is crap and it's
always someone else's fault not ours.

------
awjr
The one place I was hoping not to see Brexit was on HN. Ah well. For what it's
worth, if you are still in two minds after, what feels like, 6 years of
campaigning, this video gives, an evidence based argument for staying.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=USTypBKEd8Y](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=USTypBKEd8Y)
The lecturer also followed it up [https://news.liverpool.ac.uk/2016/06/20/eu-
law-expert-respon...](https://news.liverpool.ac.uk/2016/06/20/eu-law-expert-
responds-industrial-dishonesty-video-goes-viral/)

I am genuinely interested in an evidence based argument for leaving and
whether the benefits of leaving out strip the benefits of staying.

The most sound argument I have found is the democratic deficit created by
being within the EU and the delegation of authority to the EU on certain areas
of law. The elephant in the room is that we seem to have a house of 800
unelected lords and a government in power event though only 34% of the
electorate voted for them.

Arguments around "putting the great back into Great Britain" and "taking
control" seem to stem, as much from xenophobia and 6 years of government
austerity policies.

I really wish there was a good, logical, evidence based approach to comparing
both positions.

~~~
nailer
> The one place I was hoping not to see Brexit was on HN

Not sure if you mean Brexit the argument or the topic.

If you mean the topic: a quote from one of the founders of ef, where Magic
Pony was created: "leaving the European Union will have sweeping negative
effects on British startups' ability to hire, fundraise and access
international markets."

If you mean the argument, then fair enough.

~~~
awjr
I was hoping the topic.

I hadn't considered the impact on start-ups. Oh joy.

------
nailer
The article URL is the full, non-paywalled text of the letter published in
today's Times at:

[http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/british-business-
benefits-...](http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/british-business-benefits-
massively-from-eu-n5bhfw9nd)

------
imaginenore
There's zero substance in the article. They use scary words like "massively",
phrases like "more trade", "more jobs", but don't say specifically how many
and why.

I've listened to the arguments from both sides, and the proponents of Brexit
tend to give more specific reasons, while the opponent's seem to be stuck in
the scare tactics and propaganda, like this article.

Take changing the terms of trade, for instance. They make it sound like the
end of the world. In reality terms of trade change all the time - new laws,
new agreements (TTPP recently, for example).

~~~
nailer
Brexit folk give just as much vagueness as Remain folk - the trust is, nobody
can guarantee anything whether we remain or leave the EU.

Some Brexit folk have repeatedly claimed MEPs aren't elected, which is plainly
false. Furthermore every EU law must must be ratified by all member states.
They've also claimed that Turkey would join, which is unlikely in our
lifetimes.

OTOH, some Remain folk plainly think that Brexit is some kind of racist plot:
as another commenter mentions, businesses that don't trade with the rest of
the EU don't benefit as much as those of us that do, and that's a very
reasonable viewpoint.

I'm Remain - like most of London tech. My reasons are that that London draws
the smartest and best people from all over Europe to start businesses here and
pay taxes, and that should continue. An Australian style points system is
flawed - imagine rating programmers based on their University degrees rather
than their actual aptitude. However I can certainly understand the opposing
viewpoint.

------
marak830
(precursor I'm in Japan so I don't have a chip in this game), but I do worry
for my friends in England.

My wife works for (edit removed: large vehicle manufacturer ), and she has
mentioned that her company is quite nervous about the brexit due to having
manufacturing plants there and worrying about the cost of importing raw
materials if Britain leaves, due to new import taxes.

Take this with a bag of salt, aa i havnt verified any of this, but it's
something I hadn't thought of before, and I thought it may spark a decent
debate on HN.

~~~
adwf
Yeah I've heard similar things about said Japanese manufacturers. One of the
big reasons they are regionally headquartered in the UK is because it is part
of the EU. Given that cars make up a sizable fraction (~10% I think) of our
economy, it would be a disaster if even 1 major company left for foreign
shores over this.

Speaking from an IT perspective, I know of quite a few companies that have
brought forward datacentre builds in the Frankfurt region, prepping for a
Brexit just in case. They have to do with business with the EU and that
involves complying with EU data protection regulations which require the data
stored in an EU country. There's a lot of business going to disappear overseas
if Brexit happens.

~~~
marak830
If that's the case+ and I have no reason to believe it isn't), what reasons
could they have for leaving?

I have been listening to BBC world news, and whenever the subject comes up,
the people speaking for an exit don't really seem to put forth a good
argument( I hear a lot of 'keep our nationality" and 'we founded parliamentary
democracy ' \- but they don't seem like a good reason to leave).

------
nutheracc
This post is blatant political persuasion, not here for interest/information.

~~~
nailer
Isn't it quite obviously both? Here are the business leaders who think
Britain's stronger remaining part of the EU, and you may/may not be persuaded
by their arguments.

~~~
nutheracc
Judging by its removal, no.

------
redsummer
Non-EU Norway and Switzerland are at the top of nearly every measure in
Europe: standard of living, equality, economy, green issues, credit rating,
social progress, democracy, lack of poverty, lack of corruption.

Non-EU Iceland and EU Greece both had severe economic problems. Iceland jailed
the bankers, and has overcame it's difficulties. Greece has been jailed BY the
bankers - and will now be in debt bondage for decades, and has seen a
resurgence of Fascism. Children are digging through rubbish for something to
eat. This is in the EU.

~~~
Vaebn
Non-EU Norway is a 5 million nation sitting on a ton of oil. Which in turn
takes that oil profits and puts them in a social fund, which reduces the main
stressor of all socialistic systems (pensions). If you think that you will
convince BP to do the same, good luck. Especially considering that there is
nothing stopping you from doing the same already.

Switzerland, 8 million, is also landlocked in between some of the best EU
nations, all of which trade with it in an EU-like agreement, including free
movement, and its manufacturing economy abides pretty much to Every EU
regulation. What this means, is that again nothing prevents the UK to have
been Switzerland, other than, super politely put, the population's innate
inability to be as productive, or imaginative in thinking useful products like
the Swiss do.

Greece, which ironically is my original home country so I know Very well, is a
corrupt mafiocrasy. (rather Russian like in fact) It would have failed IN or
OUT of the EU anyway. This however is not the EU's fault, as evident by the
fact that plenty of EU countries started worse than Greece, and are now better
(better as in gdp/capita), including Estonia, Lithuania & Slovakia.

If anything, this disparity is able proof that EU nations actually have more
than enough sovereignty to fuck or unfuck themselves as much as they want. Its
just that every time something good happens politicians say "we did it" but
every time something bad happens they say "totes the EU fault, holding us
down!"

To sum up. You want to be Norway. Make a referendum to throw BP's profits in a
fund. (Not that you have the oil reserve anyway) You want to be Switzerland,
think of more useful chemicals rather than watching x-factor (I am not even
kidding. Chemicals are one of the best Swiss exports apparently). You don't
want to be Greece, don't just take EU development money and use it just for
politician's villas, bouzouki and civil servants appointment for votes.
Simples.

~~~
threeseed
Speaking about Greece specifically.

The level of tax avoidance is completely unacceptable: 24.3% of GDP versus
13.5% in Germany in 2012.

If the government had twice the revenue it would've been in a far better
position.

~~~
abricot
This has been explained time and again.

To get to the bottom of tax avoidance, people have to see and feel the benefit
of paying tax. In Greece they simply don't, and it hasn't gotten any better in
recent years.

The average German can easily list the benefits they receive from their
government.

------
gonvaled
After so much campaigning, it seems plain clear that the UK is actually
leaching in a big way from the EU. The UK is a sore player, only wanting to
take part when there is a clear and direct benefit, is not happy to play by
the rules, always requesting special treatment, and continuously complaining
of how bad we are treating them. Not a team player at all.

I am not sure if the UK is better off leaving, but we in the EU will do great
getting rid of the grumpy bully.

------
hectorperez
Database of people who agree/disagree on Brexit and why:
[http://www.agreelist.com/brexit](http://www.agreelist.com/brexit)

------
nailer
dang: the article has been flagged unnecessarily. It's topical, HN worthy,
factual and relevant - the discussion just has some very heated opinions
against. Can you check it out?

------
pigpaws
I'll just leave this here:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UTMxfAkxfQ0](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UTMxfAkxfQ0)

------
gadders
I'm not sure we'll get much meaningful discussion here. It's like having a
debate of Trump vs Hilary vs Bernie.

~~~
adwf
Very much so. It's turned into the UKs very own replica of the US primaries,
with much the same arguments.

I guarantee if we had a land border with Europe, someone on the leave campaign
would be talking about building a wall :D

~~~
richmarr
We do, with the Republic of Ireland... and we have a borderless travel treaty
with them called the Common Travel Area which has existed in one form or
another for nearly 100 years.

~~~
adwf
It's also a condition of the Ireland peace agreement that we keep it open. No
EU, no peace. We'd have to renegotiate the deal, amongst all the others...

And if we leave it open? All the migrants will just flood through NI. The
whole idea that we can control migration by leaving is absurd nonsense.

