
Ask HN: I am delivering mediocre work and feel awful about it. Should I commit seppuku? - wynand
When I started working for my company, I was ploughing through code at a good rate. A few months in, I was given a project that I never liked.<p>I don't know what an acceptable level of programming productivity is; I just feel as if I am 5-6 times slower than when I started.<p>Should I commit seppuku (this feels like the most honorable thing)? Should I renegotiate to take long unpaid breaks (this should revitalize me)? Am I panicking too much (I always panic too much)?
======
tptacek
This happens to everybody. I think I've commented on it here before: a lot of
nascent entrepreneurs here appear to be working under the delusion that
they'll redline at their peak productivity levels throughout the lifetime of
their startup.

Here's what you need to remember: the difference between a professional and an
amateur is that a professional comes and in and delivers work they'll stand
behind all the time, whether it's fun or not. You are _always_ going to work
harder and faster when things are fun. Things are not always going to be fun.
If you're a pro, you're going to keep going regardless.

Obligatory essay (not that they've set the world on fire either, but the
sentiment is good):
<http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/fog0000000339.html> (Fire and Motion).

Best of luck.

~~~
wynand
That's a fantastic essay.

Somehow I always thought that no-one else had this problem. Seriously.

I hope I can finally give up my youthful arrogance. I always believed that
when people spoke about getting experience they meant learning more about
writing software (and how I scoffed at that). But it's just as much, if not
more, about learning how not to turn around and run away.

~~~
tdavis
I have this problem every so often; you're not alone. A few weeks ago I don't
think I did any meaningful work for an entire week straight. I just screwed
around each day, telling myself that the _next_ day would be "super hardcore
work day" and every following day would _have_ to follow suit.

I eventually snapped out of it, but it took that whole week of just recharging
my batteries to get back into it. I even managed to start working a few times
during that drought and I always stopped almost immediately afterwards, never
getting into the zone.

Maybe it's the nature of the work, maybe it's a common character flaw of
people who do our work, I don't know. All I know is you're certainly not
alone.

~~~
kaens
_I have this problem every so often; you're not alone. A few weeks ago I don't
think I did any meaningful work for an entire week straight. I just screwed
around each day, telling myself that the next day would be "super hardcore
work day" and every following day would have to follow suit._

I also have this problem. It seems like every once in a while, I get stuck in
this weird anti-productivity loop. I know I should be doing things, and I'll
tell myself that I'll start in just a little bit or the next day, but end up
not.

I've noticed that I can put a halt to this process quickly (hopefully this
works for other people as well) by forcing myself to stop thinking about
whatever it is I'm doing for a while, and do something creative or
intellectually stimulating that is entirely unrelated to the problem at hand.

In my case, the "recharge" activity tends to be one of:

\- playing musical instruments

\- reading

\- drawing / painting

\- going outside and doing one of the above, or thinking about nature,
physics, etc.

\- studying (as in going through a book that I need a pencil and paper to make
sure that I am understanding what's being shown in it).

In the case of studying, the subject matter doesn't have to be entirely
unrelated to what I'm doing. I've been using Concrete Mathematics for this
purpose lately. Studying, however, doesn't help if I'm stuck in anti-
productivity mode _and_ feeling like my brain's a bit burnt out though.

If I don't force myself to do one of my "recharge" activities, I remain in the
"anti-productivity loop" for a while, at most a week or so.

It should be noted that the "anti-productivity loop" is a powerful force. It's
easy to fall into, and it takes a bit of a force of will to break out of.

Perhaps it would be more appropriately labeled "state of negative-flow".

~~~
13ren
Sounds exactly like "intensity cycling". You work hard, progressively
improving, til you stop getting gains. Then you take a week off where you do
virtually no work, to recover. Then, you start again at 70% of your previous
peak, and work up again.

It's from weight training. I just heard of it a couple of days ago, but it's
eerily similar. Also, plain common sense (but I needed to hear it).
[http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/79fu6/7_ways_to...](http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/79fu6/7_ways_to_be_a_healthier_programmer/c061o7z)

~~~
tdavis
I've had to do that with regard to weight training before, I didn't think it
was something that could be generally applied though!

Thanks for the tips, kaens. I will certainly keep them in mind in the future.

~~~
fallentimes
I think that's what Wufoo does - vaca every 2 months. Granted I doubt they did
it their first year out.

------
donniefitz2
Seriously, calm down. What's up with the assumption these days that everything
done in our work is supposed to be fun? It's work. Sometimes it sucks, it's
un-interesting, it's laborious, sometimes maddeningly menial. You're not
always going to be learning at a fast pace. You could just quit and go
somewhere else, get assigned a crappy project and find that the grass isn't
any greener. Or you can suck it up and take the good with the bad. Put your
head down and get through it and you'll learn how to deal with work that's not
fun.

~~~
azanar
I agree that the original poster needs to calm down, but I get the impression
you should calm down, too. I've been avoiding getting involved in the
generational battle that seems to have been sparked here over the past week,
since I didn't want to add fuel to the fire. But this comment struck an
unhappy chord with me; it just seems a bit too indignant.

I think the problem I have is that the assumption it is based on is wrong. I
can only speak as a representative of the millenials, but the motivational
power you have identified is incorrect. I am not working off of the assumption
that everything I do ought to be fun. Given the discussion I've observed here
so far, this seems like a gross exaggeration of what has been said.

The primary motivation for me is to be productive and build things people find
useful. It seems that this is the same primary motivation of the original
poster, too. If things are uninteresting, if they are laborious, if they are
maddeningly menial, but they need to get done, then I have no problem getting
them done. If, above all of that, they are pointless or otherwise seem like a
counter-productive waste of time, then I will get demotivated, and my
productivity will slow. As a result of my productivity slowing down, I will
become unhappy and start asking questions similar to that of the original
poster. I like getting things done, and when I feel like I’m running in place,
it begins to make me ask why I’m not just standing still. Your position on
this seems to be that I should shut the hell up and just keep running, if I
know what is good for me. Can you be so kind as to explain why it is good for
me, or those who have ordered me to keep running?

Obviously, if fed with an endless stream of menial work, my motivation will
suffer as well, but I suspect that is not where the original poster is at
right now. If it was, would you still be yelling at him to suck it up and get
back to work? At what point do you decide that there really _is_ a field
somewhere else with greener grass? I hope you are not so cynical as to say the
grass everywhere is indistinguishably parched.

~~~
nostrademons
I'm a Millenial and didn't find the original comment all that indignant or
upset. It was another side-comment that tossed in the "Millenials, eh? ;-)"
and I just figured that was a humorous attempt to tie this to another
discussion.

~~~
azanar
The side-comment didn't bother me. I'd guessed the target audience of the
original comment before that was posted. I might be reading too much into it,
but it came off as "you lazy kids and your damned expectations" kind of rant
from someone who wanted to make sure no one was having too much fun, and that
we all understood exactly where our place was in the world.

------
iigs
Welcome to the morass of professional life.

Is your career progressing? Have you accomplished anything in the last year
that you'll put on your resume? Yes? Good, continue. No? Consider other
options.

Is the project proceeding? How does your manager feel about your work? Good?
Maybe it's a perception problem on your part. Anxious? Perhaps you're not
being applied well and should be moved to a different project within or
without the company.

Things checked out OK so far, but you're still not happy? Perhaps you should
consider trying to flip your role in the company to something that would be
more beneficial to both you and the company.

My productivity plummets during certain phases of projects. If you're feeling
that way perhaps you just need to get past a milestone onto a better or more
interesting task.

Don't panic about it! Some corporate structures can withstand an almost
malicious amount of unproductive behavior; in fact, managing the spectrum of
productivity is in large part what corporate management is about. That said,
don't abuse it -- long term it will definitely hurt you more than them -- but
think of it as productivity insurance while you figure out how you can
succeed.

------
sheriff
One sure-fire way to keep getting projects you don't like is to accept them,
let them wear you down, and do nothing to improve your situation.

~~~
tocomment
and the alternative?

~~~
kaens
Be picky about what projects you accept, and don't let your clients walk all
over you. There's definitely a balance that has to be found there though.

------
dpapathanasiou
I'll be a contrarian: if you really don't like what you're doing, find a way
to transition to something else.

That doesn't mean quitting immediately (and potentially jumping into another
bad situation).

Rather, start making inquiries (either internally, at other companies, or
start your own) and see what else you could be working on.

Just don't accept the idea that " _work/life sucks, get used to it_ " as
that's the surest way towards becoming a drone.

------
Prrometheus
I would venture to say that committing Seppuku is generally a bad idea, unless
you have dishonored your family on the battlefield or something.

------
qhoxie
_Am I panicking too much (I always panic too much)?_

If you are asking this all seriously, then yes, you are panicking too much.
Calm down.

Talk with a superior candidly about the situation. Taking breaks is not going
to solve things if it is the project you don't like. Something about what you
are working on/with is what needs to change.

------
bestes
It is important to get yourself out of this situation as soon as possible.
It's depressing, you're not learning as much as you could, you're (probably)
learning bad habits. Seppuku is not the right answer.

How about a new project, a new job or find a way to make this project
interesting (i.e. use a new approach, a new language, switch tasks with
someone else working on the same project). Anything!

------
lacker
You have to get on a project that you do like. If you don't have enough
"political pull" to make that happen right now, try to make it clear to your
boss or other people in the organization that you'd really like to be doing
something else. Taking long breaks is only a temporary solution.

------
jimbokun
Get enough sleep and exercise. Starting to do these things have made a
noticeable (to me) difference in my productivity level and outlook.

~~~
alex_c
I think that's good advice in any circumstances.

Well, unless the question is "I spend all my time sleeping and working out and
I don't have time for a job and a life, what should I do?"

But that's not the question, so I agree.

------
nostrademons
I was in a similar situation with my last employer - I absolutely loved my
first project there, felt really productive, did a bang up job with it, and
delivered something pretty slick. And then I got put on another project with a
different toolset and absolutely hated it. I felt terribly unproductive, like
I was wasting my time, and didn't believe I was learning anything
professionally useful.

If I were you, I'd look around for other jobs and see what else is out there.
If there's another job that you really want to do, or you see a viable startup
opportunity, jump ship. If not, buckle down and finish up the project. In my
case, a friend from college IM'd me a couple months after I'd started feeling
discontent, and said "We're starting a startup, and need a technical person.
Wanna join?" I stayed long enough to get my current project into a sellable
state, and then quit.

Some reflections in hindsight:

1.) My feeling of lower productivity was mostly a mirage. In LOC/day, I was
almost as productive as I was in the previous project, it's just that more of
those lines were boilerplate, and so I guess my productivity in function
points/day was lower. Boss was relatively happy with my productivity, he just
didn't like my complaining.

2.) In terms of it being a dead-end professionally, I was absolutely right.
Actually, both technology stacks (Swing/Netbeans for first project and
JSF/Facelets/A4J/Hibernate for the second) were dead-ends; overall job markets
for both seem to be declining, and anything new that I'd start now would need
a modern web framework (Django or Rails) and/or C++ WinAPI experience.

3.) 90% of products fail, _whether they're done by a startup, a small company,
or a big company_. The only variable seems to be in how fast they fail, and
how much resources they consume. So you should expect that your project is
doomed and do it anyway; that's the only way to find out if it's one of the
failures.

4.) There was just as much grunt-work for my startup as for my job, but it
didn't feel nearly as onerous. I think this was because I knew that even if
the product didn't pan out, I was building skills that I'd want to use in the
future. For me, it's okay to work on a project that'll fail as long as it
leads to one that'll eventually be a success. At the last project at my
employer, I felt that not only was the product doomed, _all future projects
using that skillset would also be doomed_. (This feeling was not helped when
we e-mailed some mailing lists on how to do simple things like integrate other
AJAX libraries, and the response was "It's not possible. In fact, the
engineers here have recommended to management that use of JSF be banned for
all future projects.")

~~~
jdavid
i feel that way about my current contract job, but i have a few other notes
coming from the perspective of someone who has lead teams.

'risky code sucks up tons of time'

i don't think i have ever been on a project when expectations could
realistically have been meet if i did not already do something just like that.

the current project i am on, i was hired to work on a flash widget, and i
ended up working on a java applet that had to communicate with JS, and the
struts backend. there was a ton to learn, and most of the time i spent looking
stuff up on google.

on other programing jobs i always feel more productive when i am not spending
my days on google.

------
niels_olson
I had some really smart kids working for me over the summers at Canoe U.
Marshall scholars, Rhodes scholars smart. I saved up miserable work for them
all year and, come June, I'd give them one project each. I told they didn't
have to come in, nothing. Just log their hours and send them to me every week.
I'd make an estimate of how long each project should take, with a guess at
what a standard dev might be. Invariably they went insane with boredom and
frustration and asked for more projects.

I'm not saying my management style was exceptional, but their insight into the
nature of work was: if the project bores the crap out of you, ask for two or
three more. By working on the more interesting projects, you can save up
willpower to tackle the dull-as-rocks first project. You might actually get
through the first one faster.

------
131072
Ignore all the people giving advice along the lines of 'suck it up, work is
not supposed to be fun'. That is the talk of people who hate the idea of
anyone having a better life than them.

You need to map your way out of this situation - demotivation (regardless of
the cause) is bad for you and your employer. Persisting with it is
unprofessional. If you try and 'suck it up' you will travel the path to
burnout and damage to your health and career.

Try and identify the cause before you take the appropriate action - it could
be boring/unsuitable work, a medical problem like depression or even something
like anemia, burnout, poor diet/exercise, or a lack of fulfilment from other
areas of your life.

------
unalone
Heh. Nice user name.

Don't commit seppuku. That's an overreaction. Suicide should never be an
option until you have exhausted literally everything else, and "everything
else" is such an immense field that really, suicide never makes sense.

You have a choice. Either you keep what you're doing any try to find meaning
in it, or you change your life and do something else. If you're not satisfied
and have something better to move on to, then do that.

~~~
PieSquared
I think he was joking? At least, I sincerely hope he was joking... I'd suggest
doing it for a few more months, and if nothing improves after that, maybe
start looking for a new job. Living for a long period of time with a job you
hate might not be good for you. :D

~~~
LogicHoleFlaw
The key to a successful seppuku is to have your trusted friend practice
beforehand to make sure he really can behead you in _one_ swing.

This is one situation where being a hacker is not recommended.

~~~
bigbang
Sorry for being naive and offtopic. What does successful seppuku mean?

I had to do a search for this word when I read the post and didnt quite get
what a moral suicide means.

~~~
silentbicycle
I would assume it means not just leaving yourself wounded and slowly bleeding
to death.

~~~
LogicHoleFlaw
In a traditional seppuku you plunge the ritual dagger into your abdomen and
cut from left to right. This is an incredibly painful procedure, and to finish
the ceremony successfully you can't visibly admit to your pain. To accomplish
this you have a trusted lieutenant decapitate you swiftly after the act is
accomplished.

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seppuku> will tell you more than you ever wanted
to know about this ritual >.>

------
trickjarrett
At my last job, I found out that an intern was being paid more than me and my
productivity plummeted. Any request I made about a raise was rejected and
eventually I left the company.

That being said, that was due to my not feeling appreciated and feeling that I
was being taken advantage of.

We all go through slumps. We're writers. Neil Gaiman just blogged about how he
had to slog through parts of books and he would regularly call his agent and
try to cancel the book so he could work on something else. He's not alone. We
all do it.

You think Gaiman would blaze through a novel about the mating cycle of the
South American Gazebo? Hell no! Well maybe he would, I can't really say.

Anyways... In the first example, I tried to make it right. I spoke with my
boss and my boss' boss to try and fix the situation. While mine did not end
well, you first need to communicate with your boss. The squeaky wheel gets the
oil.

The second thing is to keep on plugging. So long as you're making progress
it'll get done. It may suck and may not be your best code but it has to get
done, it is your job.

Be strong my friend, you're not alone as this thread has shown you.

------
iamwil
Here's something from Aaron Swartz about the same topic

<http://www.aaronsw.com/weblog/productivity>

I remember pg saying that if he had uninteresting programming work, he would
try to make it interesting by making a language design problem.

My dad's brother told him once that "Everything's interesting when you look
hard enough." I've found that to be true so far.

But even if you find your work interesting at large, I think everyone has
their cycles. It helps to notice how you got out of the last one, and what you
did to get out of it. Even the coolest job and most interesting work has its
lame parts that you have to slosh through.

------
lallysingh
Sounds like a terrible case of humanity. There is no cure. I'm sorry.

~~~
LogicHoleFlaw
Even worse, the mortality rate for this ailment is 100%.

------
Dilpil
Take comfort in the fact that you are still being 10x as productive as
everyone else.

------
TweedHeads
_chanting_

Seppuku!

Seppuku!

Seppuku!

Get it on video and sell it for $9.95

