
Google Is Building a City of the Future – Would Anyone Want to Live There? - cpeterso
https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2018/06/29/google-city-technology-toronto-canada-218841
======
3pt14159
I live in Toronto.

The problem with companies like Alphabet / Google / Sidewalk Labs building
mini-cities is twofold.

First, they lack the internal focus so they flake or sacrifice on things that
no sane singular focussed entity would. For example Craig Nevill-Manning, head
of Sidewalk Labs flaked on his talk at The Walrus' 15th year anniversary party
titled The Walrus Talks The Future. This was a paid event, full of Canadian
cultural elites, specifically aimed at talking about the future. "When someone
shows you who they are believe them." If they cared about what we thought they
would actually engage the people here that care.

Second, they try to leverage existing internal competencies. Completely
understandable, but it warps the outcome to solution mixes that aren't
necessarily optimal for the people actually living in the city. When all you
have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail. I don't want to live in a city
where a techno-hammer international corporation has hammered its copentenczies
here and there. I want to live in a human city where little decisions are made
by little people. I want to live in a city where flowers hang from windows and
where theres little bike paths and a nice mix of trees. Cobblestone streets.
Community gardens and little shops and restaurants. Some Chinese, some French,
some Italian.

I'm not saying Google is necessary going to fuck up that area of Toronto. It
might be great. But it's such a large project that I worry that it risks being
another CityPlace. A soulless pocket mark on a diverse and increasingly
interesting city.

~~~
jacquesm
The problem is that everybody wants to live in a different city. So you'll end
up with a compromise, or something like Brasilia if you let the planners get
away with it.

Nice cities grow organically, they're not planned at all, and it takes a long
time for them to get that organic feel.

~~~
coryrc
Barcelona's new city (planned development after the walls came down) is far
more livable than what, say, Seattle has become.

~~~
jacquesm
Barcelona is a happy exception to the rule, and also the planning was done
long enough ago that in the meantime organic elements have taken root again.

Also, don't underestimate Gaudi's ability to design the organic look right
into a brand new building.

Great story here by the way:

[https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2016/apr/01/story-
cities-...](https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2016/apr/01/story-
cities-13-eixample-barcelona-ildefons-cerda-planner-urbanisation)

I absolutely love Barcelona, it is one of the nicest places in the world in
part due to the work done to give it its character and in part because of the
unique setting it is in.

------
ravenstine
For a company that makes over 90% of their revenue from advertising(often
sleazy), I wonder what Google's real interest is in building a city. Actually,
I don't really wonder.

Why exactly would anyone trust Google to run a city? Or a country, once they
get bored of cities? Most seasoned developers seem to have a very low level of
trust with Google, and use their services with the awareness that either
they'll receive the "f __* you " style of customer support or lose access to
their service entirely because Google has some new great ambition.

Worse yet, public services simply become inaccessible because of a political
view you expressed on YouTube.

~~~
52-6F-62
They're a sibling company to Google, not under Google's umbrella directly.

[https://www.sidewalklabs.com/](https://www.sidewalklabs.com/)

~~~
wu2ad
Corporate structure technicality. The DNA of the company will still be the
same.

~~~
dsl
For completely self-serving reasons Alphabet wants to diversify revenue. Bets
are told they can't depend on advertising, because that only canabilizes the
Google business.

~~~
extralego
It seems like the void left by a (hypothetically) decreasing advertising
market coupled with Googles desire to actually grow might place a ton of
stress on the societies that fall victim to this desperation. Obviously it
will temporarily stimulate local economies in strange and sometimes positive
ways, but a lot of their interest seems to focus on processes better handled
by an elected committee. Google naturally has it’s eye on taking over
government responsibilities. This is frightening to me. The incentives are no
better aligned than they were with advertising. It sounds like a company that
simply got way too big and now we will all pay the price.

------
Isamu
This is about Sidewalk Labs, a subsidiary of Alphabet. It's an interesting
project.

Read more about the project here:
[https://sidewalktoronto.ca/](https://sidewalktoronto.ca/)

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sidewalk_Labs](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sidewalk_Labs)

More:

>Sidewalk Labs responded to a Request For Proposals issued in March 2017 by
Waterfront Toronto to identify an innovation and funding partner. Following a
rigorous evaluation process involving several local and international firms,
Waterfront Toronto selected Sidewalk Labs.

>Sidewalk Toronto will begin with a new neighbourhood, called Quayside,
located at Parliament Slip, just southeast of Downtown Toronto. Sidewalk Labs
and Waterfront Toronto aim to bring the innovations advanced at Quayside to
scale across the Eastern Waterfront, more than 325 hectares (800 acres) that
represent one of North America’s largest areas of underdeveloped urban land.

------
unit91
> It could be the coolest new neighborhood on the planet—or a peek into the
> Orwellian metropolis that knows everything you did last night.

A refreshingly descriptive subtitle!

~~~
theandrewbailey
One day, you come back to your apartment. It's locked, and won't accept your
AUTHENTICATION_METHOD. (Your technocrat landlords despise plain old metal keys
to open doors. What are you, a peasant?) There's a note on the door saying
that you've violated the terms of service and that your account has been
terminated. You're locked away from all your stuff! You try to get some
answers from the robot downstairs, but it's unsympathetic to your situation,
and it won't listen to an unperson.

~~~
jacquesm
> You're locked away from all your stuff!

No, that's not how it will go.

It will go like this: one day you come home to your apartment, it's locked and
won't accept your AUTHENTICATION_METHOD.

The noise causes the door to be opened and the new tenant asks you to be quiet
in the hallway. Your stuff was moved out and disposed off, after your digital
media were scanned for patentable ideas (you _really_ should have read the
fine print).

Your cat has been uploaded and is fortunately still available as a construct
so you really have nothing to complain about (that was a courtesy).

~~~
chocolatebunny
I can't figure out if the cat thing is a Douglas Adams thing or a Kurt
Vonnegut thing.

~~~
arbitrary_name
More of a Charles Strauss thing maybe?

~~~
jacquesm
At least get the man's name right, he's a member here.

[https://news.ycombinator.com/user?id=cstross](https://news.ycombinator.com/user?id=cstross)

------
dv_dt
It's interesting that Epcot is mentioned, but not the Disney companies later,
more serious community building effort, Celebration.

[https://www.theguardian.com/world/2010/dec/13/celebration-
de...](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2010/dec/13/celebration-death-of-a-
dream)

I understand the tech portion is different, but post-analysis of Celebration
seems to cast a lot of criticism on a disconnect between planning/execution vs
actual resident desires and needs.

------
cromulent
Freakonomics did a podcast a month ago with Dan Doctoroff, worth a listen if
this interests you.

[http://freakonomics.com/podcast-tag/sidewalk-
labs/](http://freakonomics.com/podcast-tag/sidewalk-labs/)

------
amelius
> Constant data collection via smartphones or sensors can make life smoother
> for civic leaders and residents, in everything from transit to garbage.

No thanks.

------
ChuckMcM
It is eerie how much that rendering looks like the city from Logan's Run.

And as interesting as it is to imagine the city of the future, it is
disquieting to think of it being designed to minimize the friction of
monetizing the residents. But we know the best data comes from happy data
cows.

~~~
jeffwass
I was going to make a joke about tech ageism and Logan’s Run here, until
seeing your comment that the rendering actually resembles it. Creepy.

------
lainga
>Sidestepping democratic processes with "data-driven decision making" to make
massive urban projects happen

By God, I get it now! Google have hired Robert Moses!

------
Tepix
If cars (parking) were banned inside most areas of the city it could be
interesting. An entire city optimized for bikes, ebikes and some public mass
transport. Add a few self driving electric cars for the elderly.

------
jakebasile
I can't help but think of Alpha Complex. Trust the Computer. The Computer is
your friend.

------
dev_dull
They used to call these company towns and they turned out pretty awful in the
long run. We’ll see if it’s different this time.

------
AlexandrB
> ...and neighbors would crowdsource approvals for block-party permits, giving
> a thumbs-up or thumbs-down based on the noise the gathering was expected to
> produce.

This is hilariously, naively utopian. Systems like this tend to become
exclusionary (often based on race), where if you're the "right" kind of people
you get permission and if you're not you don't. For examples see existing
gated communities and HOAs or the Nextdoor [1] app and its endless reports of
"urban youth in hoodies".

[1] [https://www.buzzfeed.com/carolineodonovan/racial-
profiling-i...](https://www.buzzfeed.com/carolineodonovan/racial-profiling-is-
still-a-problem-on-nextdoor?utm_term=.jhmwoo6Xb#.slXmXXnwD)

------
Isamu
How to read this headline:

Google -> Sidewalk Labs

building -> designing

city -> neighborhood

future -> now

~~~
_Microft
Question mark -> No (according to
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Betteridge%27s_law_of_headline...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Betteridge%27s_law_of_headlines)
)

------
levicole
So, google is building a burbclave?

------
roguecoder
It interesting to me that tech's been willing to listen to Christopher
Alexander and apply his work on building houses and neighborhoods and cities
to building software, but as soon as we turn back to building neighborhoods
and cities we ignore him and start trying to reinvent the waterfall method of
expertise.

------
dsfyu404ed
>In Toronto, Sidewalk sketches out a picture of a neighborhood where
intelligent “pay-as-you-throw” garbage chutes separate out recyclables and
charge households by waste output

I don't understand why the "city of the future" types have such a fetish for
pay per use. It either winds up being cheap enough that nobody cares or if
it's expensive enough for people to care it will be a serious drag on poor
people. Sure you can come up with various voucher and aid systems but those
have administrative overhead and their own unique downsides. It's better to
just ensure that utilities (like trash pickup and tap water) are so cheap
they're basically free and just eat the cost of the over-users because there's
less harm in that than any other option.

~~~
seangrogg
I agree largely with the sentiment, but I do think that "pay-per-use"
_broadly_ is useful for any habit that you want others to be cognizant of
(and, through awareness, reduce).

I do find this "pay-as-you-throw" concept off-putting as I don't like cooking;
take-out bags and food wrappers are something I frequently dispose of. But if
it was something I was more cognizant of I'd likely ask for less in the first
place (don't need a bag for one item) or otherwise put pressure on the
business (washable/returnable items) where doing so now would just be
unnecessary and impractical.

That being said, being that many things such as waste, water, etc. are largely
unavoidable I think providing a general credit such that it shouldn't harm
average users is entirely practical. Bonus points if it's a transactional
credit - you could sell your excess waste allotment to your neighbor at below
regulatory rate if you're not using it.

~~~
cpeterso
As you say, much waste is unavoidable. Would "pay-as-you-throw" encourage
people to litter if you make the Right Thing (throwing away and recycling) not
free and the Wrong Thing free? I've lived in apartment buildings where tenants
who leave trash bags on the floor of the trash room because they can't even be
bothered to lift their bags into the dumpster. Or they dump mattresses on the
floor of the trash room or on the sidewalk instead of scheduling a (free!)
bulk trash pick-up.

~~~
seangrogg
I can't speak for Canada but littering is fined in most of the 'States [0].
Mind you, this is for freeways but I don't see how it couldn't be applied to
residences that are already being actively monitored. Then the behavior is
just a matter of risk/reward - is saving $x this month worth an y% chance that
I'll have to pay $z? Adjust variables until the answer is "no" in the majority
of cases.

[0]: [http://www.ncsl.org/research/environment-and-natural-
resourc...](http://www.ncsl.org/research/environment-and-natural-
resources/states-with-littering-penalties.aspx)

------
Apocryphon
There's probably a social critique to be made about how Google is going all
the way to Canada to build a city when there's so much that could be done to
improve the urban situation in Silicon Valley. If they're going to do the
Omnicorp Detroit thing, they could at least benefit the communities where the
bulk of their employees work and live.

Yes, yes, the Bay Area's politics are inherently intractable and Google has
been active in shaping the future of Mountain View. But it still looks like
that they chose Toronto because it'll give the highest chance for squeaky-
clean marketing graphics, instead of doing something really bold and trying to
disrupt an urban crisis.

~~~
Kalium
You mean something bold, brave, and disruptive, that would benefit the
communities their employees actually live and work in, like trying to build
housing in Mountain View?

I'm reasonably certain Google is already working on that one.

------
ulfw
If it's done like all Google projects, it'll be phenomenal, half-finished and
then abandoned as engineers/leaders get bored and work on the next big thing.
Meanwhile the city will rot away.

~~~
lainga
"Google Sidewalk abandoned; residents given $500 credit to move to Google
Neighborhoods in Tampa Bay" (June, 2021)

------
gehwartzen
>Mass-produced sensors now cost less than a dollar apiece, even for hobbyists;
high-speed broadband and cheap cloud computing mean that a city can collect
and analyze reams of data in real time.

Does the author believe 'sensors' is a term for some generic commodity product
akin to rice? Yes, some sensors cost less then a dollar (but some sensors have
cost less than a dollars a piece for decades) but other sensors (I.e. LIDAR,
EDS, neutron detector) cost thousands.

------
deepsun
Well, 50 million is not really "building a city". That would be enough for a
few sidewalks and parks, but not for bringing up a new infrastructure network.

~~~
timerol
Note that this is a small block of land. The article describes Quayside as "a
dozen acres". 12 acres would make a square with side lengths of ~1/8th mile.
About 2 blocks in Manhattan. I think $50 million is about the right amount for
a handful of new buildings. The artistic render is useful to get a sense the
scale involved.

------
dopamean
I've already permitted google to spy on me constantly. Why not just move into
a place so they can literally watch my every move?

------
mhb
Welcome to the neighbourhood, have you read the terms of service?:

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16214066](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16214066)

------
mikejholly
Probably the same people who used to wear Google Glass to social events.

------
beenBoutIT
Tragic how tobacco killed off a visionary like Disney. These uncommon people
who actually make a difference dying before they're done contributing is one
of the greatest tragedies.

------
dolguldur
It’s just 12 acres

Edit: oh, that’s the initial Quayside only. Afterwards it could get much
bigger. [https://sidewalktoronto.ca](https://sidewalktoronto.ca)

------
everdev
We build products and companies from scratch, no reason not to try it with
cities too.

~~~
FLUX-YOU
A city needs to stick around longer than a failed startup, even if the city is
doomed to fail too.

~~~
vimota
Luckily cities (in this case a neighbourhood in a thriving city) are much more
self-organizing than a startup. There are real residents and community leaders
who could be handed over control/management of the project.

~~~
dhimes
Unless of course that violates the terms of service.

------
snambi
probably another google campus with a bunch of hype around it.

------
Cuuugi
I wonder how much of a concern the new conservative Ontario government is?

~~~
maerF0x0
could you link to something that shows what you're referring to? eg: is there
some action or platform that you think would be a concern?

~~~
52-6F-62
The Fords (when Rob was mayor) attempted to forcibly take the land from the
Provincial and Federal governments (by way of their investment in Waterfront
Toronto—the company working with Sidewalk Labs on this project). The
Provincial government at the time continually blocked them out. Now Ford is
premier. It's unknown if he'll set his eyes back on his grand plan.

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17492065](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17492065)

------
greyfox
if google pays my rent and such i'll live there.

~~~
JauntTrooper
Perhaps it will be ad-subsidized. Watch 30 minutes of commercials for 10% off
your rent that day.

------
mtgx
So Google doesn't even have enough patience to grow a fiber internet business,
but it has the patience to build a whole city and then support it for decades?

What happens 5 years later after all the people have moved into it, but Google
discovers that the project is not very profitable for them to maintain or that
they can't achieve whatever objectives they were hoping to achieve with it?

I'm guessing the #1 objective with this is to create a "role model" for a
total surveillance panopticon type of city that governments around the world
would then replicate, using its technologies.

I'm also assuming this city would also get "upgrade" to having "always-on"
wireless brain scanning technology in the future, so that the company can
"better target" ads at you in every moment of your life.

~~~
Animats
_So Google doesn 't even have enough patience to grow a fiber internet
business, but it has the patience to build a whole city and then support it
for decades?_

That's a real problem with Google. They lack follow-through outside their core
business area. Their ISP projects, both fiber and wireless, ended after a few
prototype neighborhood installations. Their robotics projects went nowhere.
They bought Motorola and trashed it. City infrastructure has to be maintained
for centuries. Google lacks that capability.

------
s2g
> What does a tech company know about running a real live city?

Nothing, but they won't let that stop them. They will pack it with enough
sensors to go full on dystopian nightmare and provide as little actual human
support as possible.

> intelligent “pay-as-you-throw” garbage chutes

jesus, they really will find a way to ruin everything.

> neighbors would crowdsource approvals for block-party permits, giving a
> thumbs-up or thumbs-down based on the noise the gathering was expected to
> produce

oh great, we can have those shitty neighborhood social networks cranked up to
10.

oh and just imagine the HOAs!

> few better places to have this conversation than Canada, a Western democracy
> that takes seriously debates over informational privacy and data
> ownership—and is known for managing to stay polite while discussing even
> hot-button civic issues.

hopefully people wake up and become very very impolite towards these goddamn
data companies.

> Hitching up with tech companies that are flush with both cash and grand
> visions might be cities’ best chance to leap into the future, or at least to
> turbocharge their lagging districts

Yeah, we need to give more power to corporations. Not less. We need fucking
Larry running every aspect of our lives.

> So far, the deal hasn’t exactly been a victory for transparency

What a shock.

------
s2g
> “It’s not going to be a smart city of surveillance. It’s going to be a smart
> city of privacy, and that will be a first.”

I don't believe this. I think this person should be personally tossed in jail
when they inevitably are revealed to be collecting far more than people wanted
them to.

------
singularity2001
Truman Show? Thank you, No.

------
byebyetech
Primates living in futurist cages will still be primates. Its time for us to
realize that we are moving towards possible futures devoid of real progress.
More sensors, cameras, fasters connections, unlimited entertainment will not
help us become happier and prosperous society. We need to discuss real radical
ideas and implement them:

1\. World without political boundaries, weapons, pollution, carbon emissions.

2\. Cheap or free healthcare.

3\. Sustainable technologies.

4\. Better Education.

5\. Heal racial, political, class divides.

Where is that future?

~~~
iooi
> 1\. World without political boundaries, weapons, pollution, carbon
> emissions.

Oh, please. Without weapons? The first group to get a hold of them will be de-
facto rulers -- by force.

~~~
byebyetech
Thats how primates think. Are we not going to progress beyond that logic?

~~~
TangoTrotFox
We also think that 1+1=2. Of course no social matter is as simple as this, but
at the same time that increased complexity can not then be used as an excuse
to try to argue that anything is possible - because it most certainly is not.

In general, when a social system collapses unless everybody abides it - it's
going to collapse. This is not something you can just 'progress beyond.' We
are individuals, and always will be. And there is practically nothing that
everybody, onto perpetuity, will always and forever agree on.

------
arcaster
Does citizenship imply unlimited kool-aid?

~~~
dang
Could you please stop posting unsubstantive comments to Hacker News?

