
San Jose Is Hell On Earth (1996) - Flopsy
http://www.jwz.org/gruntle/cesspool.html
======
nextstep
All of this is still true today.

Edit: except the parts about SF, obviously. San Francisco is clearly not the
interesting eclectic city the author describes. More and more of the office
park culture of SJ & The Valley has crept into San Francisco, and this influx
of white and Asian males who work in tech has made San Francisco many steps
closer to a large office park "city".

~~~
blisterpeanuts
What about an influx of black males who work in tech, or an influx of
white/Asian females who work in tech? Would these groups be less contributory
to the "office park culture", and why?

~~~
username223
Don't bother with the faux naïveté. If you actually work in tech, you know
that the gender ratio is probably around 90/10 among coders, and it skews
heavily white and Asian. The groups you mention don't contribute as much
simply because there are so few of them.

~~~
blisterpeanuts
Yes, obviously the gender and ethnic ratios are as you describe, but that
doesn't justify this sort of generalization; it adds nothing of substance to
the discussion and in fact changes the topic from one of socio-economic trends
to a racial/ethnic trend, as though there's a need to stop young white or
Asian males at the border and ask if they're going to ruin San Francisco.

Would you blame the financial meltdown of 2009 on those "greedy Jew bankers",
based on the perception that Jews are over-represented in the top echelons of
the financial industry?

Would you call gun homicide a "black problem" in the U.S. today, based on the
fact that many gun homicides are committed by blacks?

Ethnic generalizations are rarely justifiable except arguably in airport
security profiling where lives might be at stake, and even then a lot of
innocent people get unfairly caught up in the dragnet.

Consider also the following thought experiment: you develop a brain condition
that requires immediate surgery. You are assigned a surgeon who is world
famous for treating your condition but you are unconscious. Later, after a
successful operation, you discover the surgeon was a black woman. Do you then
say, "Wow, what a strange thing that is!" or do you say, "I'm alive! Thank you
for your help!"

In the end, it comes down to person-to-person interactions. Each of us is
different, each of us unique, and ethnicity, nationality, age, and gender are
textures that flavor our lives but don't in the end define us. Just my 2
cents!

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m0nastic
When I moved to Santa Cruz (at the end of the nineties), my company eventually
closed our office there and consolidated everyone into our office in downtown
San Jose. No one wanted to work there, which I found weird at first
(considering it wasn't very far away), but eventually understood.

San Jose was pretty shitty then (I have no idea what it's like now, but it
sounds like it's basically the same).

I also didn't find anything redeeming about San Francisco (which I realize is
a minority opinion), so I stayed in Santa Cruz as long as I could (before
eventually relocating to DC after the company closed the rest of our offices
out west).

~~~
GuiA
Is there anyone on HN who works in the valley and lives in Santa Cruz?

I currently work in SF/live in Oakland, but my gf and I go to Santa Cruz
pretty regularly over the weekends. I really like the vibe there- way more
relaxed and less obsessed with the latest startups. You can take hikes, surf,
enjoy the weather, have nice meals for less money than in the Bay Area, and
without the pretension.

For now I'm in my mid-20s and content with going there one or two weekends a
month; but if I still work in the bay area when I start to turn 30 and have
kids, I think I'd much rather live in Santa Cruz.

I know Apple has a few SC shuttles; are they the only company? I'd love to
hear any stories :)

~~~
fourstar
No. Google has a shuttle from there. Additionally, I know of one LinkedIn
employee who live in Santa Cruz as well (but I don't think they have a shuttle
from there yet). That's a really shitty commute otherwise (Highway 17) with no
shuttle, so those that do commute from there to the valley must have a pretty
damn good reason.

~~~
michaelwww
Programmers who can work from home usually arrange to go over the hill on off
hours or on an infrequent basis, which I think is typical. If you must work 9
to 5, yes the commute can be pretty bad, but by California standards not that
bad.

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nicklovescode
How can someone say with a straight face that it's "pretty hard to screw up
sushi"

~~~
sbierwagen
Click the link. The joke is that he eats sushi with lots of wasabi, which
overrides the taste of the actual roll.

------
dkoch
It's pretty cool that at least two of the off-site links from that page are
still live, considering how quickly most sites from that era fell into link
rot:

"prefab hell"
[http://www.theatlantic.com/past/docs/issues/96sep/kunstler/k...](http://www.theatlantic.com/past/docs/issues/96sep/kunstler/kunstler.htm)

"sushi" [http://www.lauralemay.com/essays/death-by-
wasabi.html](http://www.lauralemay.com/essays/death-by-wasabi.html)

~~~
dvdt
Looks like The Atlantic decided to preserve the 1996 layout of the "prefab
hell" article. It is refreshingly minimalistic -- no ads, no links to "Just
In" or "Top 10" articles. I like it much better than the modern
theatlantic.com

~~~
srl
Much as I love bashing modern web design, I do prefer having more than six
words to a line.

------
beefman
My wife dragged me kicking and screaming from Berkeley to Los Gatos in 2006.
We lived there for 5 years. While San Jose has too much concrete, I must say I
surprised myself by being deeply moved by the profound natural beauty of the
valley, and even the suburban architecture there.

Suburban architecture is easy to ridicule (Kunstler does a good job),
especially when you're a young professional looking for a mate. When you're
raising two kids you start to understand it better. Today I see it as a
fantastic setup -- almost utopian.

Sure, I appreciated being in the green and walkable Los Gatos downtown rather
than San Jose proper. But the San Jose downtown is pretty nice! Not my type of
scene, but it beats the zombies, human poo, getting mugged, ice cold fog, and
dilapidated, frantic streets of San Francisco. Which is -- objectively, it
must be noted -- a far better target for a nuke test.[1]

[1] The market agrees, for starters
[http://www.forbes.com/sites/morganbrennan/2013/10/16/silicon...](http://www.forbes.com/sites/morganbrennan/2013/10/16/silicon-
valley-tech-enclaves-top-our-list-of-americas-most-expensive-zip-codes/)

------
JAFTEM
I encourage people to watch Fresh Off The Boat with Eddie Huang: Bay Area. In
his short documentary series he tries different foods from different areas to
get a feel of the culture. I really think his opinion about the food here
resonates with the South Bay especially [0]. You wouldn't think that
restaurants in strip malls would have good food or a lot of culture, but
somehow we manage that here and I personally think the author is being too
black and white in his analysis of San Francisco and San Jose.

[0] [http://youtu.be/Ezq_96rookw?t=8m57s](http://youtu.be/Ezq_96rookw?t=8m57s)

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31reasons
The geography perfectly reflects the life stages of a middle class american.
SF is young, fun and eat-out place and as you go south its gets older. San
Jose is a middle-age boring place where people are busy with kids and other
house chores.

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voltagex_
How much has changed in 18 years? (article was written in 1996 by the look of
it)

~~~
fown9
The best indian restaurant in bay area is Sakoon, on castro in MV, try the
lunch buffet and kerala fish curry

The best japanese sushi in bay area is Hoshi in santa clara, try the toro.

The best vietnamese homestyle in bay area is Tofoo Com Chay in downtown san
jose, try the vegetarian bamboo soup noodle

The best cheap michelin french in bay area is at Chez TJ, in downtown MV.

The best burmese restaurant in bay area is Rangoon Cafe in palo alto.

The best chinese hot pot in bay area is wuji hot pot in milpitas

The best indonesian restaurant in bay area is bay leaf in sunnyvale. try nasi
bungkus

The best korean bbq in bay area is gooyi gooyi in santa clara CA

The best independent coffeeshops in bay area are in MV (dana street, red rock)

The best steakhouse in bay area is alexander steakhouse in cupertino

~~~
jamesaguilar
I disagree with this article, but in the interest of balancing your claims:

There are better rated restaurants in most of the categories you mentioned
elsewhere in the Bay. For example, I know of at least two Indian places that I
personally consider better than Sakoon and have better ratings on Yelp. There
are a half dozen that have better ratings on Yelp but which I have never been
to. And that's just within five miles of Menlo Park, to say nothing of the
city.

You are of course free to your own opinion, but I'd caution other readers that
this is just one opinion among many, and is probably not as near the mean as
one might hope given the authoritative tone of the assertions made.

~~~
regs
And to add to the point above, Yelp ratings are not well-normalized across
markets. The things that people care about in the 'burbs is different than in
the city and places get voted up or down for odd reasons.

For example, Joya in Palo Alto is a pretty amazing restaurant but only gets
3.5 stars. The Cheesecake Factory (which is a pretty crappy chain) gets a 5.
This is not really good data.

~~~
jamesaguilar
You are not wrong, and I hope my hedging made it clear that I do not consider
Yelp authoritative either. It is a signal among many.

------
jamesaguilar
I dunno. Maybe I have no taste, but sometimes I go up to the city and eat
someplace and the food is crap. Sometimes I eat down here and it's good. As a
matter of degrees, I won't deny the city is better, not to mention being a
cheaper place to live in most parts. But it's not quite as black and white as
all this.

Mountain View is not worse in this regard than any other suburban city. It's
better than most. But it isn't a Big City, and only a foolish person could
expect it to be, given its population density.

~~~
seanmcdirmid
San Jose also has some the best and/or cheapest Vietnamese food in the bay
area...pho and bahn mi....yum.

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hogu
ok, some of this is ridiculous

\- sushi is really easy to screw up, just buy really crappy fish, and alot of
people do that

\- there's awesome chinese food and vietnamese food in san jose, much better
than most of SF, second only to LA in the states.

~~~
sbierwagen
This blog post was written almost _two decades ago_.

~~~
regs
... and, honestly? Not much has changed. The cultural zeitgeist of both SJ and
SF are very much the same.

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semerda
Oh wow.. ok I live in Mountain View and I love it here. Here are what I
consider my fav in Mountain View:
([http://www.theroadtosiliconvalley.com/local-
california/mount...](http://www.theroadtosiliconvalley.com/local-
california/mountain-view-voice-2013-ballot/)) from Coffee Shops like Red Rock
to Sushi Tomi for Sushi. And even though the writer from JWZ believes you
cannot mess up sushi you can. Poor quality sushi tastes like rubber. Oh oh..
there is also Gelato Classico - amazing Gelato! Also let's not forget what I
believe is the best Farmers Markets in the Peninsula in Mountain View:
[http://www.theroadtosiliconvalley.com/local-
california/farme...](http://www.theroadtosiliconvalley.com/local-
california/farmers-markets-mountain-view/) The only thing Mountain View lacks
is a top notch breakfast place.

------
cclogg
I'd say he's right about the SF food. I haven't been to San Jose but I've been
to SF and every meal I had there was awesome. I'm from Vancouver though, so
it's probably quite similar in terms of Asian cuisine quality.

Oh yeah and the prefab article was a great read. I do find it sad how many
ugly, dreary buildings went up in our cities. At least now they're starting to
make better looking stuff, but nothing as timeless and beautiful as the older
classical buildings (ie typically 1900's bank buildings).

------
outside1234
Its gotten better in terms of cuisine since 1996 with all the funny money
floating around constantly.

Then again, you have to deal with all the people that this has attracted in
Palo Alto and Mountain View.

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michaelwww
The problem with San Jose is that the street layout was built during the 50's
and 60's when cars were king. Now people want to walk or bike, and San Jose is
not friendly at all for that. The office parks are on major thorough fares,
which enclose neighborhoods without cross streets, but rather a maze of cul-
de-sacs. The authors description of a "sickening suburban sprawl" still
applies, which is why people want to get out. It's claustrophobic.

------
eplanit
OP should modify the title to clarify that this was 1996.

~~~
JAFTEM
I would be surprised that people here wouldn't be able to tell by the HTML.

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11thEarlOfMar
Actually, the air quality is much better now than it was in the 1990s.

Based on this 2009 report, combining historic and forecast data,air quality in
general is substantially improved since 1996. Carbon Monoxide, in particular

page 4-6
[http://www.arb.ca.gov/aqd/almanac/almanac09/pdf/chap409.pdf](http://www.arb.ca.gov/aqd/almanac/almanac09/pdf/chap409.pdf)

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dav-
Am I the only person around here who actually enjoys living in the South Bay?
Other than how much it costs, of course.

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eruditely
Should hang out with the boys and girls from east side. Get down a little bit,
learn to hang a little bit.

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excitom
Pretentious hipsters ruining SF since the last century.

~~~
vertr07
Whining is forever.

