
B&N Decides That Purchased Ebooks Are Only Yours Until Your Credit Card Expires - chanux
https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20121126/18084721154/barnes-noble-decides-that-purchased-ebooks-are-only-yours-until-your-credit-card-expires.shtml
======
pilif
As far as I understood the article, this is about a second download of a book
purchased some time ago. I think in this case, it's not as clear-cut as the
article makes it out to be.

To stay with the real world analogy: while the article is right that nothing
will glue the pages of a physical book together once the credit card expires,
it is also the case that purchasing a book once doesn't entitle you to go to
the bookstore and demand another copy of the book because you lost your
initial one.

I can see a technical reason which prevents the redownload by locked accounts.
Or rather, I can imagine the additional work such a feature could require -
work that obviously isn't going to be paid for by anybody (or rather paid for
by customers who do have valid accounts and buy more media) - the card of the
affected account is expired after all.

IMHO, if we want to demand that an electronic media purchase is a traditional
sale, then we can't rurn around and demand that it also isn't and that we
should have right to infinitely ask for additional copies - however cheap it
might be to create them.

~~~
sami36
> ...then we can't rurn around and demand that it also isn't and that we
> should have right to infinitely ask for additional copies - however cheap it
> might be to create them.

oh Yes, We can. The reason we're entitled to it is the fact that DRM stands in
the way of us customers backing up our purchases. If my eBook were in a format
devoid of DRM & I could back it up by saving it in Droppbox or my external
hard drive, then your argument would carry some weight.

~~~
pilif
To stay with the real world analogy: you also can't back up your book. You
have that one copy and once it breaks, you are out of luck and have to buy a
new one.

I compare the ebook readers as a physical object with the books (also physical
objects). If I can read books on that device even when my credit card has
expired or other things have disabled my account, then IMHO the parity to the
real world exists: I have that one physical object which represents the
content on it. If I lose it and don't have my account any more, well, too bad.

Of course, by centralizing many books to one physical object, you risk losing
much more content as you lose that physical object. But the advantage is that,
in case it breaks, it can be repaired (which might be impossible with a
physical book)

Now. I know for a fact that this is how Kindle works: even if your account is
gone, your books stay on your Kindle and you can continue to read them. I
would assume it works the same for B&N in this case.

Being able to infinitely redownload the books is a nice convenience that goes
far beyond what a physical book would allow.

Also, I haven't tried it, but these DRMed books are just files after all. It
might be possible to back them up and later read them on the same device
(again the physical book analogy) even if the account has been terminated.

~~~
chrischen
I can photocopy or scan every page. It may not be easy, but it's doable, and
the publisher does not have technology that actively prevents me from doing
this.

~~~
pilif
You can strip off DRM from an ebook. It's as illegal as photocopying every
page, but slightly less cumbersome to do.

~~~
ekianjo
Where is it illegal to make a photocopy of your OWN book ? As far as I know,
you are in your right to make a copy of something that you own for private
use.

~~~
rhizome
They're probably referring to the scare-o-grams posted at and recited by
employees of copy shops.

------
javajosh
The simple fact is that the ebook experience _sucks_ all the way around. I
gave it a shot with the Nook Touch, and I really dislike it, even if DRM
wasn't an issue.

Over the years my subconcious has grown used to indexing the story according
to certain physical properties of the book. "Oh yes, that happend about a cm
in on the right side page, like halfway down" is something I might think- but
this coordinate system doesn't work with an e-reader. Seeing the cover art
each time counts, too. I also rather like (and miss) the small stains, tears
and incidental damage that normal books get. There's also the matter of
distraction - now that my book is a _device_ I can't help but fiddle with it.
Finally, even though the quality is very good on my Nook Touch, I can see the
pixels and I find it distracting.

Maybe some or all of these concerns will go away in time, but then there's
also the (rather stunning) fact that ebooks are MORE expensive than the
paperback - this, even though the cost of production is negligible, and
typically you can't share or bequeath your e-library, etc.

And then _on top of all these objections_ B&N does something asinine like
this...let's just say that I'll be perfectly happy reading paper books for a
long long time.

~~~
batiudrami
Your experience is with ereaders is nearly the complete opposite of mine
(putting DRM aside, like you).

I love that I don't have to remember my page or use a bookmark, I love that I
can change the font size, I love that I can select a word and get an instant
definition for it, and I love how light it is to carry around and much more
comfortable to read with. I prefer them over real books in every way (though,
I'm from Australia where a hardback is $50 and a paperback is around $20-$25,
so ebooks are cheaper for me).

~~~
javajosh
_> I love that I don't have to remember my page or use a bookmark_

Is keeping your place really a problem for you? I've never found it to be.
Those rare times I lose my place serve as a quick and easy review. And,
actually I tend to use whatever is handy as a bookmark, which also adds to the
charm of any particular book, now that I think about it.

You are absolutely right about the weight!

~~~
batiudrami
It wasn't a huge problem, but it's a problem I'm glad I don't have now.

------
yk
The problem with ebooks (as with software and other files) is, that they are
simpy not physical goods. From the viewpoint of a consumer, a nice advantage
of files is the essentially zero costs of replacement, so that I can resonably
expect a vendor to replace a copy lost due to an accident. (Unlike with a
physical book, where replacement costs actual money.) On the other hand, I
have the means of production for an ebook. ( A computer, production of files
means copying, just as producing a car means copying a prototype.) This means,
I can actually compete with the vendor of an ebook, by pirating it. ( A car
does not need DRM, because I would need a factory before I can start to pirate
it.)

So I believe, that analogies like "glue the pages of a book shut" and
"selling" are misleading. The much more interesting question is, what is a
reasonable default licence for digital goods? Or to pose the question slightly
differently, what can each side of a default licence agreement reasonable
expect of each other?

~~~
pseingatl
Are you suggesting that digital goods cannot be sold and can only be licensed?
What is your basis for this? It seems to me that this was a sale of goods. The
fact that the goods are in digital format is irrelevant. It is unlikely that
the courts will treat the sale of a book the same as a software license.
Ultimately sales of goods are governed by law, and one party is not permitted
to breach their contracts.

~~~
yk
This depends on the exact meaning of sale. It is certainly possible to
implement a license agreement, that looks very much like a sale of a physical
object. However I think that such a license agreement would be unenforceable,
essentially because a physical good has a certain uniqueness. It makes sense
to talk about 'my car' which is distinct from 'your car.' ( And if someone
steals 'my car', I am able to identify this specific car.) By contrast, I can
not really talk about 'my mp3 file' because there is simply no difference
between my file and any of its copies. This applies also to watermarked files,
since given a copy of a watermarked file you can not determine if this
specific representation of the file was created by the original licensee or
from an intermediate copy.

So the important point of me buying a book, is that a unique physical object
becomes mine, by contrast there is no such thing as a unique digital object. [
IANAL, it is entirely possible, that there is some case law which defines a
sale of software. But my point is, that this would be kind of a default
license.]

See also

[http://www.antipope.org/charlie/blog-static/2010/04/why-
cont...](http://www.antipope.org/charlie/blog-static/2010/04/why-content-is-a-
public-good.html)

which had a huge influence on my thinking about digital goods. (Or economics
in general.)

------
dansingerman
Having had to get my hands dirty in the murky world of Adobe DRM, I am pretty
sure this is actually an implementation problem with how Barnes & Noble have
implemented it.

As crazy as it may seem, I believe in the B&N case the DRM licence is based on
the credit card details.

Hence no more credit card, no more licence.

One day I may do a longer post how horrifyingly awful Adobe DRM is
technically, (never mind the ethics), but knowing what I know, this is not any
sort of surprise.

~~~
thinkling
I don't doubt that Adobe DRM may be awfl, but when the customer isn't allowed
to download the book, how does the DRM implementation enter into it? The DRM
(as embedded in the ebook files) isn't in play here.

~~~
dansingerman
The default Adobe DRM implementation requires that you need an Adobe ID (i.e.
an account with Adobe) to access the book. (DRM licences are against Adobe
accounts)

The bigger players who use Adobe DRM (Like B&N) of course don't want this, so
there are alternative schemes where you can use a token to represent the user
that is not the Adobe ID.

In the B&N case, I believe that token is based on the credit card details.

You also only download the actual encrypted epub after the DRM licence has
been applied. (The initial download is a small XML file which your Adobe RMSDK
app uses to decide if you have access to the ebook)

ergo, no valid credit card, no valid account to unlock DRM, and get access to
the actual content file.

~~~
thinkling
Ah, the credit card number is part of the encryption/decryption key [1]. Since
it seems unlikely that the Nook decrypts the book once and stores a decrypted
copy, the Nook also must store the credit card number--or hopefully a hashed
version of it. Apparently so [2].

[1] "I cannot unlock my books" at [http://www.barnesandnoble.com/u/nook-books-
frequently-asked-...](http://www.barnesandnoble.com/u/nook-books-frequently-
asked-questions-faq/379003486/)

[2] [http://i-u2665-cabbages.blogspot.fr/2009/12/circumventing-
ba...](http://i-u2665-cabbages.blogspot.fr/2009/12/circumventing-barnes-noble-
drm-for-epub.html)

~~~
epochwolf
The credit card number is the decryption key. The DeDRM tools for Calibre only
require the credit card you used to purchase the book. In contrast, Amazon
encryption only requires the serial number for the Kindle you are pulling the
books off of.

------
spohlenz
This issue has nothing to do with DRM, and is simply the result of a system
that requires an account to be in good standing (i.e. has a valid credit card)
before any downloads can be made.

Obviously this is an issue that should be fixed, but there isn't even any
evidence that any attempts were made to contact B&N - just someone
encountering an error message in B&N's software.

I'm as against DRM as anyone else here but this is a non-story.

~~~
talmand
I was thinking this too. By the way the article reads it has nothing to do
with the DRM on the ebook itself. How can the DRM on the ebook be the problem
if one cannot download the ebook in the first place?

This is a customer service issue, not a DRM issue.

------
kabdib
It's really simple: I buy ebooks, then break the DRM so that I can make a
backup. If it wasn't possible to break the DRM, I wouldn't buy them.

Non-DRM'd books are better, of course.

I want my descendents to be able to read my e-books just as easily as they can
read my physical books. So my conversions include collapsing rich text to
plain text, which I am reasonably sure will survive format changes over the
next 100 years.

~~~
epochwolf
Exactly. I currently buy books on my kindle and use Calibre with plugins to
strip the DRM on import. Before I had a kindle, I would use iTunes to purchase
books and use Requiem to strip DRM from them.

I don't go to the extreme of converting to plain text. Epub is a zipped
collection of html. There should be tools to extract data from those for a
very long time into the future.

------
vertis
I would blame this on a badly designed system rather than deliberate attempt
at DRM.

i.e. Product owner goes to dev: We want to make sure that customers always
have a valid credit card on file so that when they go to purchase it doesn't
distract them (etc, etc).

Dev makes it so that you can't do anything with the website until you've
updated your expired credit card.

~~~
aneth4
I agree and it created a shitty situation. But I have to believe B&N did not
intentionally institute this policy and will quickly change it.

------
sami36
I don't think it's DRM related or a publisher requirement. I think it's of B&N
_own_ initiative to keep your credit card on file in order to facilitate
_potentially_ future purchases. Either way, it's misguided & customer hostile.
as long as this policy is in effect, I'll never buy an ebook from them again.

~~~
wildranter
I have another word for similar policies, sleazy.

~~~
R_Edward
Occam would probably disagree with you. Absent evidence of malevolent intent,
I'd chalk this up to a mediocre designer who didn't ask enough questions of
himself or his subject matter experts.

~~~
wildranter
I respectfully disagree. I think the reason is pure greed.

Greed is a natural human feeling that usually comes from a basic survival
instinct. That's why greed is deeply embedded in our society. Also, that's
another reason why Vulcans are superior to humans.

~~~
R_Edward
Yes, greed is deeply embedded. But it rests on a bedrock of stupidity and
incompetence. And even the dullest of greedy bastiges can figure out that if
Money = Good, then pissing off the people who have it, and who, until you
pissed them off, wanted to give you some, = Bad.

No argument at all on the superiority of Vulcans (or whales, for that matter)
to humans.

------
pseingatl
There isn't a ''real world'' analogy. This is a sale of goods and as such is
governed (in the USA) by Article 3 of the Uniform Commercial Code. All sales,
whether the goods are digital or not, carry an implied warranty of
merchantability. This means that the product sold can be used under normal
circumstances. Here, the buyer received nothing for his money. Do not be
distracted by the digital world of downloads, DRM and software licenses, the
UCC nevertheless applies. B&N has stores all over the country and is subject
to small claims courts and perhaps even class actions. After a few lawsuits
they will wake up and stop this practice.

------
venomsnake
I think that Louis CK really nailed down the way to distribute digital
content. Few streams per key + a drm free download, that is up to you how to
back up with no obligations after that for him.

------
sasfasfasffas
Nook was the second major entry as a consumer e-reader but lost because they
didn't think about user experience. You went into the store to download and
buy ebooks? Convenience anyone? No? What about the lower secondary color
screen before the color came out. Why? Then it was a rootable android device,
not so bad, but they just didn't focus on what was important. Their online
book store sucked compared to Amazon. They just couldn't compete. Also had a
mortar business tying them down, but that isn't much of an excuse because
Amazon had a ton of other stuff on their plate. Seriously, from what I hear
from someone that interviewed- they had no clue what they were doing on the
online side and wanted to reinvent it but didn't know how. It has been a huge
fail.

I like their mortar stores but I haven't shopped there is ages, so I imagine
that others are the same. They need to drop the nook or at least completely
reimagine it and rebrand it (nooks are for english muffins), start up a second
online team completely physically separate from the current one hiring top
talent for UX and focus on a non-backlit color e-ink screen for whatever the
rebranded ereader is called. The mortar stores aren't cheap to run either, and
most stores are way too huge for the amount they sell. That needs to change
also.

Basically, they need serious, serious help. It is a shame that B&N used to be
the epitome of a bookstore, but now it is seriously flailing against a company
that sells more other stuff than it does books. But who knows, maybe taxes
will kill the Amazon giant.

------
lnanek2
Honestly, amazon has been pulling bullshit like this on me as well. I'm always
flashing new ROMs and swapping phones for my job, many books on the amazon
Kindle app simply refuse to download any more saying I've exceeded the
license. ;/ They really need to put in the description that the book will be
useless to me...

~~~
turtlebits
Go into manage your Kindle and deregister your non-existent device accounts.

Problem solved.

------
JimmaDaRustla
I got the solution: cloud media! You must stream your product from a central
server as you use it, and the server can ensure that you aren't reading more
than one book at a time, nor are you reading the same book in multiple
locations.

I guess we are good ways away from that...

------
epo
This has nothing to do with DRM, it is a crappily designed customer
authentication system. If B&N had any sense they would offer customers the
ability to redownload their purchases at any time after say, 120 days, for an
additional 25c.

~~~
hullo
People can redownload their purchases at any time for 0 cents, whether it's
120 days or 3 years later. They just need to have a current credit card on
file. Question the wisdom of that if you will, but there's absolutely no
recharging people or disabling of access.

------
justindocanto
This website has not shown up properly for me once in the last 10 minutes...
No style sheet, missing end of html or times out each time... Incase anybody
from the site reads this.

------
monochromatic
> strip the drm off of the ones you purchase so you can you the book you BUY
> on all your devices

This attitude right here is part of the misunderstanding, and part of the
problem. You haven't BOUGHT the ebook. You've paid for a license, and in all
likelihood, that license prevents stripping the DRM.

~~~
pjriot
[http://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/fatal-fruitcake-mary-kay-
and...](http://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/fatal-fruitcake-mary-kay-
andrews/1113787874)

Funny, the button clearly says "Buy now". Not "License now" or anything else.
If retailers want to make that distinction clear thats fair enough, otherwise
I'm perfectly happy with the attitude you refer to.

~~~
B-Con
"Buy now" makes sense because you would be buying a license.

Although I do agree that the distinction between a product with DRM and a
license to use a product with DRM does not seem well distinguished. Exactly
what you are obtaining should be spelled out, at least in some form of
legalese somewhere that you see when you buy the product, not just in some
document buried on the website you're browsing.

~~~
pjriot
I don't see any mention of the fact that I'm buying a license on the page.
Whatever about the hacker news set, but you can't honestly expect average
consumers to pick up on this distinction without a very clear and obvious "DRM
for dummies" tutorial. Legalese won't cut it. This nonsense is unethical and
dishonest.

------
lucian303
First suicide: 1gb of space on the Nook Tablet for user data. Second suicide:
This

B&N, RIP

