
MacOS Sierra Server - walterbell
http://www.apple.com/macos/server/
======
djrogers
Wow, there's a lot of whining in here about this it being a 'real server',
hardware limitations, etc etc. Did none of you read the actual web page? This
is clearly not targeted at anyone with requirements for rack mounting, let
alone dual PSUs and OOB management. This is aimed squarely at the 5 man shop
with an old laptop sharing some files (ps - there's your backup power):

From the copy "The server for everyone.

macOS Server is perfect for a small studio, business, or school. And it’s so
easy to use, you don’t need your own IT department."

And

"Small studios, retail shops, even home-based businesses can all benefit. It’s
simpler than ever for people without much networking experience to set up and
host macOS Server. "

So yeah - If you've heard of devops or need to spec out BTU and rack space for
your servers this is not for you.

~~~
cknoxrun
The herd mentality I am seeing regarding recent Apple announcements, from a
supposedly intelligent, introspective group of people on HN, is frankly
disappointing.

~~~
forgottenpass
What? You're kidding, right? HN is almost always a herd.

The only thing the Apple announcements have going for them are that multiple
herds are clashing.

~~~
cknoxrun
You may be right, I think I am able to generally filter out FUD posts, and
there is still a high concentration of quality exchanges that I enjoy. My
comment stemmed from the fact that I've noticed this trend to be more extreme
than usual in this case.

------
fritzw
I use to manage networks for small graphic design firms, local news papers,
and other small businesses. In one or two instances I used OS X Server for
network file management, and node backups. This looks like a further cleaned
up version of that software. Over all once I got the software up-and-running
it ran solid for years of service. I don't always understand Apple's recent
decisions but this release is consistent with their past small business
professional network software.

~~~
raesene6
except for the lack of server-class hardware to run it on... AFAIK the mac
mini is the closest they have in that regard, and it doesn't seem to be a core
focus for them in terms of updates.

I'd have thought most smaller companies that don't want to do cloud hosting,
would be better off with a NAS system, like the ones from Synology..

~~~
hjnilsson
Yea it's quite funny, is the expectation that you buy a laptop, stow it away
and run OSX server on it?

I guess Mini is the expectation, but it's really a "oh no" feeling to buy
something running 2 year old hardware for that price, and for a server it also
lacks dual drives (and no quad-core since 2012).

~~~
dijit
Not sure if it's still available but you can definitely buy a server version
of the mac mini which has 2 drives.

I have a standard desktop mac mini which has been fitted with 2 drives by
using this kit[0] so it's certainly possible.

The issue I have is that I don't like running anything mission critical
without ECC memory.

[0]: [https://www.ifixit.com/Store/Mac/Mac-Mini-Dual-Drive-
Kit/IF1...](https://www.ifixit.com/Store/Mac/Mac-Mini-Dual-Drive-
Kit/IF171-005-1)

------
kabdib
Can't run in a VM, that's against the license. So there had better be
something rack-mountable, with redundant network and power, and a separate
management port, or this isn't a server, just some app you run on some
hardware that you hope won't get jostled much (or stolen, or "Hey, that Mac
that's been in the corner hasn't been used in years, so I ...")

There has to be a license change coming, or new hardware, or this is just . .
. wow.

~~~
chongli
They are selling the software for $20. If you even know about VMs, rack
mounting or redundant power supplies then there's a good chance you're not in
the target market.

~~~
yardie
We have them for our small group of designers. We also have a complete on prem
and off prem datacenter. Mini server is used as our LDAP bridge to AD and to
push device profiles.

Still haven't found an effective way to manage OSX clients in a Windows
domain. Password expiration is a nightmare.

------
KaiserPro
Great, so what do I run MacOS Server on?

A laptop? with 16 gigs of ram?

Great, what about redundant power supplies? dual network?

nope thought not.

Let me guess? still can't [legally] virtualize it on non apple hardware right?

~~~
Lio
I'm not at all serious about this but ...the new MacBook Pro has those 4 USB-C
ports, any of which can be used to charge it.

So in theory you could add redundant power supplies and dual wired network
connections and it has a built in UPS in case of power outage, maybe.

Maybe not, 'tis a silly idea.

Maybe it's a sign that Apple are considering releasing server grade hardware
again in the future ...but probably not that either.

~~~
caleblloyd
They'd rack mount really great also. Just stack them on top of each other. At
18mm thin you'd be able to go 152 high in a 9ft rack! Good luck hitting
numbers like those with a blade loaded with Xeons.

Each one comes with a built-in KVM console, and boy does it look good!
Finally, no more pushing that cart with a 17" CRT around the data center so
you can use vi in a 40x80 console. These laptop servers have retina screens,
baby.

Only one question should stand between you and outfitting your data center
with MBPs: Space Gray or Silver?

~~~
jason_slack
Since you are talking about racking, I couldn't resist showing how Imgix racks
Mac Pro's [http://photos.imgix.com/racking-mac-
pros](http://photos.imgix.com/racking-mac-pros)

~~~
sk5t
It fills me with a certain amount of dread that a company I've never heard of
has the time, money, focus, and decision-making process to bring racks of Mac
Pros to fruition. In other words, how can one succeed, when others--presumably
smart people--are busting their asses and tons of resources on a concept for
which I can muster, at the very most charitable angle, moderate disapproval?

~~~
achr2
Especially for seemingly basic image processing. The type of decision making
that decides to design new rack mounting options for the worst price to
performance hardware available is mind boggling.

------
mozumder
Been running OS X Server on a Mac Mini for the last couple of years. Doing
this on a static-IP fiber home address, and it runs a full email server on
multiple domains, and has been working beautifully. Set-it-and-forget-it.

Used to run a web server on it as well, but now I have a much faster separate
Skylake Xeon FreeBSD machine behind the router/firewall, with terabytes of
image data. I can server Django pages in about 350us, from home.

Every web developer should have a home static IP address and OS X server. It's
just so much better than Gmail or cloud providers. OS X Server has so many
services available in it, including file sharing, messaging, and VPN, and the
Server GUI is so much easier to manage than any other Unix system. I expect
the services offered by it to grow over time (family photo sharing maybe?)

Edit: Also, OS X Server isn't anything at all like the Linux/Unix home servers
that people are complaining about. You're not supposed to tinker with it at
all or learn about the intricacies of PostFix or SMTP or spam filters or VMs
or containers. All of it's details are hidden from you - it literally has an
'ON/OFF' button for each service. It's not a hobbyist thing at all. It really
is a Zero-knowledge 'set-it-and-forget-it' system. If you are spending more
than an evening on it, then you have already screwed up, and might as well
stop using it.

~~~
solatic
> separate Skylake Xeon FreeBSD machine

Wait, if OS X Server is so awesome, why not run your web server on it?

> much faster

Oh. Oh, I see. Is the Mac Pro not fast enough? Because then you could run OS X
Server to do your web serving.

~~~
tkxxx7
It's a Mini.

------
rahkiin
This is a new version of macOS (OSX) Server, now with added iCloud-style file
collaboration. Looks good to me. Useful within organisations like iOS
development teams or just teams with a lot of i* and mac devices.

~~~
mark_l_watson
I agree with you, this does look useful. My wife and I use Mac Laptops and it
would be useful to leave one of our old laptops always on for caching, etc.
the only issue would be electricity use - always leaving a computer turned on.

------
johnydepp
Considering that Apple doesn't care much about developer's exerience (look at
XCode crashes, iOS UI Bugs, shitty UX of itunesconnect portal) I won't engage
in any new tool by apple.

~~~
Gorbzel
Confirmation bias turning HN into an anti-Apple echo chamber of niche,
subjective rants is really getting old (...and it's not even been a week).

As an iOS developer, I've got the experience to know this kind of drivel
doesn't reflect reality. More then that though, I simply find it amusing how
people here rush to judgment about a product they've never used, then circle
the wagons. I guess it's not surprising, developers and entrepreneurs tend to
be god-awful at understanding the needs of end users, tale as old as time.
What's more concerning is that despite over 40 years of technical revolutions,
attention to minor detail wins, and adoption/consideration of community input,
industry "professionals" won't give Apple even the slightest hint of the
benefit of the doubt.

But I do wonder about the empathy and humanity of people who say that Apple
"doesn't care." They has over 125,000 employees worldwide, many of them
hardware engineering, open-source software, and design veterans who know and
are passionate about the work they do. Passionate enough to know about
tradeoffs you make when shipping a successful product. Marginalizing these
people simply because you've decided to switch to Desktop Linux reflects
really poorly on you, not on the Touch Bar.

Nor does it get anything done, as time and time again Cupertino shows that the
haters have less memory than a Nomad and are lame. Meanwhile, scores of
developers will use the tbMBP, Xcode, and even iTunes Connect to do tons of
productive things with their time. Maybe think of that next time you decide to
lower the discourse +1 on every damn article.

~~~
vegabook
_> As an IOS developer....._

k so you're at the center of Apple's attention. You're lucky. You perhaps
don't need 32 Gig. Many of us do though, and 16 gig limit is just as
nonsensical as it gets on a "Pro" computer and no amount of "oh this is
getting old now please stop" is going to change the hard fact that Apple
screwed up, or is dumping serious power users. I'm still angry, and I agree
with the backlash. I want to toolup away from Apple as well. There is
something useful to me in posts that show that I'm not alone, because it
suggests a certain momentum towards alternatives, reducing my risk. There is
also something very useful to Apple's competitors in gauging frustration as it
may push them to create closer alternatives.

~~~
aioprisan
> There is something useful to me in posts that show that I'm not alone,
> because it suggests a certain momentum towards alternatives, reducing my
> risk.

No, there really isn't anything useful in statistically insignificant samples,
except to further your confirmation bias. Stats 101.

~~~
vegabook
How are 1800 comments in one HN thread post-Macbook-pro launch, an
"insignficant sample"? Stats 101. And should we ignore the qualitative
evidence that this issue has been picked up by multiple independent sources,
including the ultra-Apple-friendly Macrumors itself?

~~~
aioprisan
You analyzed 1800 comments and can say which way each leans? 1800 comments
from people who come here and want to be heard is not a good sample and is
statistically useless [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-
selection_bias](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-selection_bias)

~~~
vegabook
oh please. Not everything in life has an rsquared and a p-value. It's
perfectly obvious, when perusing the HN comments and the rest of the internet,
that the Macbook Pro has been generally poorly received by high end users, for
credible reasons. You don't need a degree in statistics to figure that out.

------
ktamiola
Who is the target audience / client here?

~~~
danpalmer
In my experience it has typically been small businesses (think 5-30 people) or
sometimes schools where they might have one room of ~20 Macs to network.

~~~
izacus
Don't you need it for any kind of mass provisioning of Macs in any case?

~~~
danpalmer
As I understand it, no. For mass provisioning there are more "enterprise"
grade third party tools for the provisioning, and it can back on to Active
Directory (with some additional software I think) for enterprise deployments.

From what I understand, I don't think macOS Server scales to large volumes of
users.

------
walterbell
Has anyone used Profile Manager for mobile device management of iPhones and
iPads? Can you configure per-app VPNs, or otherwise isolate network traffic
for business and personal apps? Does it allow central configuration of all
policies available in Apple Configurator? It would be worth the purchase cost
of a Mac Mini, if all my iDevices could be consistently managed by a non-cloud
Apple computer.

~~~
therobotking
I use Profile Manager. I run OSX Server on a 2012 16GB/1TB macmini and it's
been pretty good. It's stable - I think I've rebooted it once in about a year
and a half. Anything you can do in configurator you can do with profile
manager aside from a few things like setting the wallpaper.

For things like per-app-vpn you need to create custom payloads for each app:
[https://developer.apple.com/library/prerelease/content/featu...](https://developer.apple.com/library/prerelease/content/featuredarticles/iPhoneConfigurationProfileRef/Introduction/Introduction.html)

~~~
walterbell
Thanks for the helpful info. Can per-app-vpn (e.g. IKEv2) be configured for
any app, or does it require special support from the app developer?

While searching for info about per-app VPNs, I found this guide for on-demand
VPNs that are associated with specific web sites,
[https://www.derman.com/blogs/Setting-Up-iOS-OnDemand-
VPN](https://www.derman.com/blogs/Setting-Up-iOS-OnDemand-VPN)

------
newscracker
It's a shame that there are no "current" desktop class machines from Apple to
run this on (since the only server class machine, Xserve, was dropped long
ago). I hope this is a sign that updates to the Mac mini and Mac Pro are
coming soon. I'm half-scared of any upcoming updates after seeing the MBP
refresh from last week.

------
timmyd803
Guys, this isn't new. They've been selling Server as a standalone app for $20
for years. I'm currently using it on a 2012 Mac Mini to provide directory
services and device profile management for about 500 users and 65 devices, and
it works terrifically well.

------
no_wizard
This certainly is not the server of yore with Xserve. Those glory days (or
what was left of them by the end of it) died with in 2009 with the end of 10.6
Server. Though, having dealt with Macs in the Enterprise for years, I'm not
100 percent certain that they were all that great even then either. Linux has
always seemed more powerful and Windows Servers, for all their issues,
dominate large orgs for good reasons. However, macOS Server has some strengths
Namely

1) It is intended for a small maybe even medium sized business, as far as the
services go. For what you can do here for 20 dollars USD, its pretty great.
File sharing, VPN, Contacts w/ a built in GAL, customizable Calendar, a
relatively basic but useful intranet (Wiki) and the ability to host websites
by basically dropping your folder of HTML/CSS/Python/PHP/Javascript code into
a folder is very neat. Its also fairly trivial to setup a small mail server.

2) Ease of deployment. Goes along with number 1, but to specifically address
those talking about a UPS and the need for other higher-end server fucntions.
I DO NOT disagree :) However, it is, compared to a rackmount server, trivially
inexpensive to setup a replica of a macOS Server. Just buy another mac mini,
join the open directory to the existing master, and BOOM import your data. You
know have a backup server. and you can do this dozens of times if needed. With
a few button clicks, and, for what its worth, it also does some semblance of
reasonable load balancing of the services too with you have replicas. Cool eh?

3) The real Gem here though is Profile Manager. Companies like
Meraki/Airwatch/Microsoft charge an arm and a leg for mobile device management
solutions that are basically clones of Profile Manager (with some exceptions.
JAMF is pretty neat) Automatically enrolling devices into profile manager or
now apple school manager is super simple, there is limited network setup you
have to have, and it maintains itself very easily. This also lets you push tho
VPP apps as well. And there is no per user cost. No per device cost. Profiling
is just as robust as any other MDM solution like inTune Airwatch, MobileIron
etc. Macs & iOS devices can be provisioned with zero touch enrollment. And
soooooo much more. And no more apple IDs!

Have users on your AD or LDAP instance? Join the mac itself to that instance
and flip on the open directory, and boom, you can use your AD/LDAP credentials
for your mobile devices and macs.

All for under 800 bucks. Its a steal.

------
aq3cn
I have never used macos Server. But I wonder, are there people who like to
rely on a company which is famous for planned obsolescence when servers are
supposed to run smoothly for a decade. I can count several restrictions
imposed in iOS or macOS, I wonder who is the audience of macOS server and how
differ in experience with Linux or Windows server.

------
tkyjonathan
So we're moving away from cloud or at least making it a tad more local?

What about just installing this on a time-capsule instead?

~~~
mozumder
That would be ideal. I'd love to see it as part of an Airport. There is some
overlap in features already - I can back up to Airport or OS X Server, for
example.

You can already manage an OS X Server from a separate laptop.

------
GreaterFool
And what would I run this server on?

~~~
anentropic
Hackintosh

~~~
gm-conspiracy
I think if you are going considering this, you may as well virtualize it.

Probably less stability risks.

------
ex3ndr
So, self-hosted iMessage? isn't it cool?

~~~
mozumder
Mostly the absolute easiest way to have your own email server.

I honestly don't know why anyone would use GMail.

~~~
dbbk
You _honestly_ don't know why anyone would use Gmail? You really can't think
of a single reason?

~~~
mozumder
I'm sure there are reasons, but from all I can think of, there are better
reasons not to.

~~~
JustSomeNobody
Such as the stability, up-time and guarantee that your emails won't wind up in
Junk that comes with running one's own email server?

~~~
mozumder
Are these problems you face with Gmail? I don't regularly use Gmail, and I
think my uptime is about a year. There is a spam filter in OS X Server, but I
don't know how it compares to Gmail.

~~~
arsenico
JustSomeNobody was referring to sending emails rather than receiving them. And
of course, Gmail is a great piece of technology which is free, et still comes
with a price - privacy, corporate greed, ads.

------
vintagedave
Is this a good solution for syncing home profiles?

I would like to have both a laptop for on the go work, and a home desktop Mac.
Ideally, these would share the same profile, or at least documents, bookmarks,
etc. Several VMs; this is tricky because the laptop would not have all the
hard disk space of the desktop, so I'd want to selectively sync these.

Is running OSX Server a solution? If so, would it be on a separate machine, or
would (say) the desktop Mac run Server, a user profile there being able to be
logged in locally, and synced with the laptop too?

~~~
gm-conspiracy
I don't believe Server is its own OS per se, but a collection of "server"
software running on OS X.

That being said, I would physically separate the server, personally (not use
it a daily-use machine).

Not too relevant, but I remember doing web-dev many years ago and was told to
never turn off my workstation because it was also a DNS server for the whole
company.

I know this is for your personal use, so YMMV.

~~~
Rzah
Your machine was the nameserver for the whole company? I hope you had fun with
that.

------
josho
I'm tired of Apple (and others) tying their products to subscription services.

Ie. The server can now act as network storage for your iCloud services (e.g.
iCloud drive and photos). But, despite the fact that your server is now your
preferred cloud storage you'll still need to pay Apple a monthly fee for
iCloud storage.

------
ksec
May be I am the only one who is really excited about the iCloud Cache
features? I get all the benefits of iCloud Backup without the speed
limitation.

The problem is I dont have a decent hardware to run this. I want a Time
Capsule for iOS, or Airport Extreme like that runs OSX Servers.

------
isarat
It's good to see a powerful server platform available at $19.99. Where do I
install this? Mac Pro was last updated Dec, 2013. Existing customers would
find this cool, but it's high time to build professional hardware with truly
professional standard.

~~~
joeblau
Mac App Store: [https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/macos-
server/id883878097?mt=...](https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/macos-
server/id883878097?mt=12)

~~~
mattybrennan
I think OP's point was that there is no powerful hardware around to install
the "powerful" server OS on

------
dep_b
It would be interesting what IBM could do for Apple / macOS customers on an
enterprise scale. Or perhaps not, they kind of have a reputation on certain
products like Lotus Notes or the pricing of their big iron products.

------
therealmarv
I'm pretty sure that thing is better than Windows Home Server. It's not a
competitor to a high class Linux server, maybe more a competitor to e.g. a
Synology NAS (and there you have your redundancy for storage).

------
KiDD
Tons of schools and small business use Server. Simple GUI setup and quite
reliable.

~~~
benjohnson
Sorry from my rant, but I need the catharsis:

We manage two schools on using Mac Server and the network profiles (like
roaming profiles) bring everything to it's knees.

In one school - because Apple laptops are rather expensive, each student
doesn't have their own laptop. Every time a class fires up and logs in - the
30 laptops saturate the GB network for about 5 minutes. Until the darn things
are done churning, the students can't do any work.

And yes, we've done all the smart things - pruned home folders, SSDs, awesome
WiFi. It used to take 20 minutes before.

I send construction workers out in the field with MacBooks because they're so
rugged and the RDP client it awesome, and we really enjoyed Apples line of
plastic MacBooks. At the time, they were a great value for schools. I love
apple stuff generally - I'm typing this on a Macbook right now.

But I'm absolutely convinced that Apple will lose the lower education space
entirely in the next few years if they don't throw some effort into their
server line (the software) and come up with a less expensive laptop.

2nd Rant:

Each new version of Mac Server makes fixing the Open Directory parts harder -
in older versions you could search google to find the arcane chant to punch
into the terminal to do magic. You could fix the underlying database, prune a
user that isn't working well, and fix all sorts of corner cases.

Apple keeps removing these tools year after year.

Apple generally says that fixing the OpenDirectoy should amount to restoring
from a backup - that would be fine if you found out about a problem right
away, but if you've gone a month down the road it's annoying to potentially
lose a months worth of work to fix a small problem. I haven't been bitten yet,
but others have.

~~~
no_wizard
I know this is six days old, but 2 questions:

Whats the environment like for those network users? Are you only using 1
server? There's ways to load balance that. You're probably hitting throughput
issues for sure.

On the second point: do you know whats missing from before? I'm pretty good
with macOS server related terminal-foo. Might be able to help.

------
camoby
oh dear: "And it’s so easy to use, you don’t need your own IT department."

------
Klibarchu
I'm sure Apple is laughing right now...

"Just wait, we'll release the software first, then laugh as they wail confused
and cry, 'But where's the hardware? What ever will we do?'"

Try to relax. Posting on the Internet all day and night won't help you.

------
MatthewWilkes
I wonder how much they considered the implications of the sentence "Any share
point can now be used to share documents with your Mac, your PC, or apps like
Pages on your iPhone or iPad."

------
superflit
I am sorry but this is really dumb. Having worked with the Xserver before it
was discontinued [1] it was frustrating having to deal with ''special'' HW,
Licenses(Xgrid, etc.) and old libraries(apache, python).

I am emotional and frustrated but not improving MacBooks, lame MacBook pro and
iMacs not sure how this will help. Too late too little.

[1] -
[http://images.apple.com/xserve/pdf/L422277A_Xserve_Guide.pdf](http://images.apple.com/xserve/pdf/L422277A_Xserve_Guide.pdf)

~~~
angry_octet
They have just completely given up on anything except small business. The
complete lack of a real MacPro or Xserve is abysmal. And the new feature is
just an iCloud cache -- something only small business might use.

The idiocy of how painful it is to manage a pool of ipads on a corporate
network is the worse part. In particular because they can actually be locked
down and secure and hence a perfect corporate device.

