
Uber stops upfront ride pricing in response to California worker law - njarboe
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-uber-california/uber-stops-upfront-ride-pricing-in-response-to-california-worker-law-idUSKBN1Z731Z
======
smsm42
>> the final price would now be calculated at the end of a trip, “based on the
actual time and distance traveled.”

Well that sucks big time. One of the main reasons I used Uber was I know what
it's going to cost me, upfront, no matter what, I just click, get in the car,
get out and that's it. Now I have to gamble, risk that I get stuck in traffic
and my price suddenly doubles, worry that the driver "took the scenic route",
and so on, and so forth. It becomes just a taxi with a nice app.

~~~
dheera
So honest question ... "in response to California worker law".

\- How did this law get enacted?

\- Why wasn't I, a resident of California, asked to vote on it?

\- Was the law buried under some legalese and just slipped past the eyes of 39
million Californians? And nobody made any noise about it?

~~~
syshum
>>>\- How did this law get enacted?

the same way all other laws do, passed by the legislature and signed by the
governor

>>> Why wasn't I, a resident of California, asked to vote on it?

because neither the US nor the State of California is a Direct Democracy, it
is a Representative Constitutional Republic

>>> Was the law buried under some legalese and just slipped past the eyes of
39 million Californians? And nobody made any noise about it?

No there have been several thousands of News reports about it, even I as a
Midwestern knew about this law months ago (I think I first heard about it mid
2019), if you did not then I would recommend you update your news sources you
are in some kind of Bubble or echo chamber

~~~
gnicholas
> _the same way all other laws do, passed by the legislature and signed by the
> governor_

In CA, there are also a fair number of propositions that are voted on by the
general public. It would be interesting if there were some sort of mechanism
through which a pending law could be put on hold until after a popular vote,
say, if enough voter signatures were gathered within a certain timeframe.

~~~
colejohnson66
There is. A proposition could be filed to stop the law, get enough signatures,
and then get voted on during the next election.

If what you’re asking is for an “emergency proposition” where everyone votes
_now_ , that’ll never happen.

~~~
gnicholas
I'm asking for something in the middle — basically pause a new law from coming
into effect because enough residents have given signatures for a proposition
that would invalidate it. What I think you're describing is invalidating it
after it comes into effect. It would seem reasonable to have an avenue for
pre-empting a very unpopular law (passed by legislators and signed by the
governor) from coming into effect, given that the proposition system already
gives residents a way to later overturn it.

------
blendergeek
I am an Uber Driver. I have been wanting changes like this ever since I
started driving. I saw people asking, 'how does this make drivers less
employee like?' I'll tell you this. It makes us feel less like employees when
we actually have enough information to choose whether or not we want to take a
ride. Now we will be able to see the estimated fare before we take a specific
ride. There will be no more driving 20 minutes to a ride only to discover that
it will be a half mile ride that wastes another twenty minutes at a
convenience store netting us $3 for 40 minutes of our time. I will simply skip
any ride like that. We feel less like employees and more like the contractors
we are supposed to be when we know why Uber gets a certain percentage of the
fare. I wholeheartedly agree with the changes Uber is making.

~~~
jimmaswell
So now people not in a city center will never get rides. Wonderful outcome,
very progressive.

~~~
dang
Can you please not post in the snarky or flamewar style to HN? It's against
the rules, and evokes worse from others, as demonstrated below.

We're trying for thoughtful conversation here. If you wouldn't mind reviewing
[https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html](https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html)
and taking that spirit to heart, we'd be grateful.

~~~
jimmaswell
I'm aware of the guidelines. I've been here for years and such tiny dabs of
sarcasm have never been an issue before. If we're not all grown up enough here
to handle a basic "oh, great" then that's a sad state of affairs. Guess I'll
write every comment like a college thesis statement from now on.

~~~
dang
It always seems like "tiny dabs" when we're the one producing it, but I
guarantee you that it doesn't feel that way to everyone else. Perhaps the
majority don't care, but at least in the long tail, a bunch will, and some of
those will get activated enough to lash back. The reason we ask people not to
post like that isn't because we think it's somehow wrong in itself. It's
simply because the quality of the lash-backs is so low, and they lead to even
worse. That's why we got
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22021528](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22021528)
and so on.

In that way, each user here is partly responsible for the quality of the
replies they get. If we want to have a good community in the long run, we have
to learn to edit out gratuitous provocation.

------
34679
Uber has no contact phone number or email for costumers or drivers to reach
anyone in the company in the event an issue arises. Delete Uber, it's a shit
company.

I once had someone try to brute force my uber password, I was getting constant
login failed notifications. Could not contact Uber, so I tried deleting the CC
they had on file. They don't allow that. So I tried deleting the account. They
don't allow that. So I changed my password to a ridiculously long set of
random characters and deactivated the account, which they indicated would take
60 days.

They make it so easy to give them your money, but if you have a problem, it's
100% "We don't give a fuck about you."

~~~
coldcode
I believe the latter is Uber's motto.

I find it amazing that such a large and "successful" company survives with
such pathetic customer service. Of course they are not profitable (and not
likely ever will be) so I assume customer service is the least of their
concerns.

------
CodeWriter23
If Uber et.al. were really smart, their response to AB5 would be to cap every
driver at 30 hours per week, avoiding the legally mandated benefits and the
decreased supply will increase surge pricing. Also, Assemblywoman Lorena
Gonzalez would have her feet held to the fire by most of her base.

~~~
creddit
> If Uber et.al. were really smart,... and the decreased supply will increase
> surge pricing.

I like how you indirectly criticize Uber for not being particularly smart and
then you assert that, while ignoring other effects, decreased supply =>
increased surge prices is a strictly good thing. While, in the absolute
simplest terms, this clearly decreases supply (by your own admission) and
therefore decrease # of trips by an amount that is obviously both unknown AND
inestimable by you so it's NOT clearly beneficial to Uber. They, also, MIGHT
know better than you whether or not it may be beneficial to them.

~~~
gbronner
Or they could cross reference the voter file and exclude anyone who donated to
her campaign.

~~~
AlexandrB
This would be an exciting new development in corporate fuckery. I suspect
(hope) it’s unconstitutional or otherwise illegal.

------
the_mitsuhiko
Upfront pricing is the main reason I use uber over alternatives in Europe.
Almost all other services have price ranges.

~~~
tpetry
Yes! And when no uber is nearby i have to take a taxi: But the estimated price
of the taxi is all the time a lot higher than uber pricing, and the real price
is again a lot higher than the estimated price. This is the exact reason uber
got big, you feel tricked when getting a taxi.

------
mattlondon
For what it is worth, I think it has always been this way in the UK. You put
in a destination and you get a £15-18 estimate or whatever. It is even an
estimate in the ads shown in google maps for Uber/Bolt/Kapten/etc

~~~
garmaine
It used to be this way in California too. Then a year ago they switched to
fixed price rises because that’s what people wanted.

------
rightbyte
I don't understand this change. Why would this make the drivers any less of a
employee or more of a contractor?

If they were serious about the drivers being contractors, the drivers should
process the payment and give Uber commission for the lead.

~~~
Litmus2336
It seems to me that the option to refuse drives is the bigger change.

But regarding pricing, Uber is no longer "mandating" the drivers accept a
price, instead Uber drives agree to the rates Uber sets. Maybe that has some
bearing? I'm no expert.

~~~
sida
Maybe eventually uber needs to allow drivers to set prices for themselves,
with a large enough market it should proxy surge pricing?

~~~
Litmus2336
Yeah, that'd theoretically work. But I wonder how it would go in practice with
the limited information of each driver. Perhaps if they provided drivers with
statistics (average offering price, bottom 10% offering price, ride volume
over time, peak areas etc) then it would work. Interesting proposition.

~~~
AnthonyMouse
They could do it dutch auction style. Suppose there are five drivers and three
rides. The drivers bid per-mile rates of $.75, $1, $1.25, $1.50 and $1.75. The
rides go to the three lowest bidding drivers and they all get $1.25, i.e. the
highest rate of the drivers who get rides.

It gives everyone the incentive to bid their _actual_ threshold past which
they wouldn't want the ride, because if you bid too high you don't get any
rides, but if you bid lower you may still get paid more than that unless
bidding that low was actually necessary to get the ride. And at any given time
all the riders pay the same rate as each other.

~~~
nemothekid
>They could do it dutch auction style. Suppose there are five drivers and
three rides. The drivers bid per-mile rates of $.75, $1, $1.25, $1.50 and
$1.75. The rides go to the three lowest bidding drivers and they all get
$1.25, i.e. the highest rate of the drivers who get rides.

The problem with all these variables is that the more "preferences" you
introduce into marketplace to matching, the longer your pickup time will be.

The 2nd most frustrating change is going to be the increase in pickup times
because drivers will now optimize for rides that are exclusively in city
limits.

~~~
AnthonyMouse
You can address things like that with predictive matching. You don't actually
wait until there are three rides before matching anybody, you just look at the
data for this timeslot and expect that statistically there will be three rides
this hour, use that rate based on the drivers who are on, and assign the
nearest of the three lowest bidding drivers as they come. If a fourth ride
appears that hour then you immediately raise the rate to the fourth lowest
bidding driver starting with that ride, and so on, and next time have more
data and make a better prediction.

------
bluecalm
Why not let the drivers see the destination and price and then make the choice
if they want to accept it? When we are at it the customer should be able to
increase the price to encourage drivers. I see it this way: drivers reject
giving a reason, one of the two: too cheap or other. Then the customer gets
information about how many drivers rejected because of the amount and they get
an option to increase it. As it is I often feel bad about requesting short
trips. I feel most drivers don't want them and the situation is uncomfortable
for everyone. I would like to have an option to pay enough so it's worthwhile
for them to take a short ride.

------
iakov
Interestingly enough, here in Czech republic it changed the other way around,
roughly half a year ago.

~~~
sellweek
As far as I remember some articles that came out around the time of this
change, that's because Uber is not an official taxi service. So they need to
operate as "contract rides" which must have their prices specified in advance.

------
timvdalen
Wait, Uber uses fixed pricing in other countries? That sounds amazing. Here in
The Netherlands, the actual price is usually 25% more than the top estimate
Uber gives before the ride (they give a range).

~~~
Scea91
Yeah, we have fixed pricing in Prague. I believe that Uber was forced to
implement it by government to distinguish itself from taxi service and the
related regulations (which truly are obsolete). From a customer perspective,
it was a win and one more reason to prefer Uber over a traditional taxi.

------
ww520
AB5 aside, I am all for giving drivers greater latitude at refusing rides. The
abuses some drivers got from the riders are sickening.

~~~
cycrutchfield
I mean, to be fair, back in the days before Uber the abuses some riders got
from drivers was even more sickening. Giving them the right to refuse rides
arbitrarily is not really the greatest thing for consumers.

~~~
smsm42
Why not? I certainly don't want to be driven by somebody who doesn't want to
drive me and hates my guts for being forced into driving me. I'd rather he
refused and another willing driver pick up the job.

~~~
freepor
Now imagine you live in a housing project and need to get to work and nobody
will pick you up.

~~~
fujiters
One would think the price would increase until someone would pick you up.

Uber should add the ability to bid up your route--like when it's taking a long
time to match you to a driver, or you want to entice a driver who is nearby so
you can get where you're going sooner.

~~~
nemothekid
You don't find it a bit dystopian that someone has to pay more for a ride only
because they live in a poor neighborhood?

~~~
ema
If driving people from or to poor neighborhoods increase risks for the driver
then it's fair risk compensation.

~~~
selimthegrim
Uh, won’t that make the neighborhood, I don’t know, poorer?

------
sp332
_Uber in a blog post on Wednesday said the step was the result of changes to
its fare structure_

Does anyone know where this blog post is? I checked
[https://www.uber.com/blog](https://www.uber.com/blog) but the only post I
could find for Wednesday was in the Culture section and didn't have this info.

~~~
josuepeq
[https://www.uber.com/blog/california/keeping-you-in-the-
driv...](https://www.uber.com/blog/california/keeping-you-in-the-drivers-
seat-2/)

~~~
josuepeq
Also, here’s part one:

[https://www.uber.com/blog/california/keeping-you-in-the-
driv...](https://www.uber.com/blog/california/keeping-you-in-the-drivers-
seat-1/)

------
pmx
Uber already works this way here in the UK and in my opinion it's the only
fair way to charge for rides. I'm totally ok with paying for the ride I
actually took (taking into account traffic and diversions) so that drivers
make a decent living.

~~~
xphilter
That doesn’t make any sense. Unless something else has changed, there’s no
concrete way of knowing or estimating the cost of a ride. The price per
mile/min is not regulated or posted like taxis. So what, you just hope surge
pricing or per-rider-price-discrimination is not suddenly in play?

~~~
gsnedders
The price per mile/min you will be charged is posted in the app before you
book, along with an estimated price range for the journey.

------
bengale
I'm fairly sure this is how it works already in London, once a month or so I
have to travel across the city with a load of bags so I uber, and the app
normally says something like £30-40 estimate and I end up paying closer to
£30.

------
Rapzid
The estimates should be pretty darn accurate most of the time, and Uber still
knows if drivers are taking the piss based on their data so.. I'm not overly
pessimistic on this.

------
rolltiide
Only reason this will work out is because California is a big enough
destination that out of state uber riders won’t notice

------
planetzero
Hopefully, the same people pushing for these laws aren't going to turn around
and complain when all of the prices go up.

~~~
lovich
Lower prices at the cost of turning a group of people into a serf class, is
not a good tradeoff imo

~~~
merkaloid
no ones being forced to drive for uber lol, prices are only low because theres
way too many people doing it

~~~
ahoy
yeah they could just not work instead!

~~~
flyingfences
Exactly! Uber is offering these people income where they would otherwise be
without.

~~~
ceejayoz
Or Uber is offering the _illusion_ of income and hoping they're desperate
enough not to do the math on vehicle depreciation.

~~~
flyingfences
Income, not profit.

~~~
ceejayoz
How does income with no profit benefit the drivers?

~~~
njarboe
It can be a useful way to extract some value from your car without selling it.
Say you are between jobs and have a car you bought new. You would like to keep
the car, as you know its history, so you drive Uber to "sell" a part of the
car until you get a new job.

~~~
ceejayoz
You're describing, in essence, a predatory payday loan.

~~~
njarboe
Not really. More like a way to sell a fraction of your vehicle's value while
working for less than minimum wage in some cases. Not a great situation but,
you are not paying high interest on a loan that you have to pay back.

------
__composed
It's insane how much of this contractor vs employee debate would just be
solved with universal healthcare. I don't understand why the US is obsessed
with passing on any cost to their citizens or employers in ways that lower
productivity and clearly hurt the economy, instead of just biting the bullet
and budgeting out policies to improve the economy, increase quality of life,
and make the country in general stronger.

~~~
lovich
The conservative viewpoint is that the government can never do things as well
as companies can, so they like to not provide services.

The reason companies provide healthcare at all is an artifact from WWII when
the tax rate was high enough that offering more salary was not enough to
attract the limited workers left, so companies started offering other perks
that were untaxed. Since the US Constitution being set up in a way as to
encourage deadlock if there is not a large majority of agreement, were stuck
in a deadlock on moving this forward to a government operated endeavor, and
wont do anything to remove it from an employer offered benefit.

~~~
unlinked_dll
The market theory breaks down with healthcare, which does not operate in a
free market or with adequate competition/price visibility. Furthermore the
entire concept of "price" falls apart when talking about the fundamentally
priceless nature of _human life_.

The conservative viewpoint is woefully ignorant of the reality of healthcare
and the success of socialized medicine almost everywhere it has been
implemented, or at least superior quality and lower price to that available to
the prototypical American citizen.

I wish the myth that "the markets will provide the optimal solution" will die
when talking about healthcare. It hasn't, it can't, and it won't.

~~~
AnthonyMouse
> The market theory breaks down with healthcare, which does not operate in a
> free market or with adequate competition/price visibility.

This is a problem that could in principle be solved using price transparency.
Most medical procedures are scheduled ahead of time. Emergency services are a
small percentage of overall healthcare costs and there is no need to treat
everything else the same way.

> Furthermore the entire concept of "price" falls apart when talking about the
> fundamentally priceless nature of _human life_.

The high value of the product doesn't break anything as long as there is
adequate competition. You die without water but that doesn't mean Evian can
charge a million dollars for a bottle.

> The conservative viewpoint is woefully ignorant of the reality of healthcare
> and the success of socialized medicine almost everywhere it has been
> implemented, or at least superior quality and lower price to that available
> to the prototypical American citizen.

Most socialized systems around the world are piggybacking on all the R&D done
in the US and paid for by the huge US market paying high prices. We obviously
can't do the same thing to ourselves to get lower prices. And outcomes in the
US for people who actually have health insurance (i.e. the large majority) are
better than they are almost anywhere else in the world.

~~~
atq2119
> Most medical procedures are scheduled ahead of time.

Does that really matter when the procedure is non-optional?

It's not just price that matters, but also the quality of the provided
healthcare, and you're forcing somebody to make a stressful decision when
they're already impaired by whatever health issue makes that procedure
necessary.

Basically, most health-related decisions are made under at least some level of
duress, which makes all "free choice" based reasoning at least somewhat
suspect.

~~~
AnthonyMouse
> Does that really matter when the procedure is non-optional?

Of course it does. If you have time to shop around then you can choose a
provider that costs less, and if we had real price transparency it would allow
people do to this, which would require providers to compete on price and that
would lower costs.

> It's not just price that matters, but also the quality of the provided
> healthcare, and you're forcing somebody to make a stressful decision when
> they're already impaired by whatever health issue makes that procedure
> necessary.

Quality is ensured by medical licensing. If there are five providers that have
all met the licensing requirements, maybe some of them are still better than
others, but how do you know that _even now_? It's a completely independent
problem. You still need some way to figure that out regardless of whether
there is transparent pricing; or you just have to trust the licensing process
to ensure a minimum level of quality.

> Basically, most health-related decisions are made under at least some level
> of duress, which makes all "free choice" based reasoning at least somewhat
> suspect.

How is this any different than buying food? You have to buy it but that
doesn't mean you can't have a market.

~~~
atq2119
The difference with buying food is that that is a recurring item where you as
a buyer can learn over time about relative prices and quality and adjust your
behavior accordingly.

Medical procedures are ideally one-time affairs.

~~~
AnthonyMouse
> Medical procedures are ideally one-time affairs.

Sure, but so are a lot of other things we have markets for. Ideally you don't
have to buy a car more than once every five or ten years, by which point the
models on the market have been redesigned and your experience may not be
relevant. You also have no basis for comparison; if you buy a worse car, how
do you know the competition is any better?

The answer is that you rely on the experiences of other people and independent
reviewers, or the advice of professionals. If you ask your doctor which
provider is better, they may have some information about that -- either be
able to tell you they're all the same so choose the cheapest one, or they're
all good except this one which should be avoided, so choose the cheapest from
the remainder etc.

------
KKKKkkkk1
Could they be using the law as a pretext? Offering a service without an
upfront price is shady. If Uber can get away with it, we know the market is
not as competitive as we thought it is.

~~~
jlmorton
Is it? There's no upfront pricing in the taxi industry. There is a set fare
rate, but the fare is dependent on external conditions.

~~~
ceejayoz
Many cities have a set rate for airport-to-downtown trips, and you may be able
to negotiate one directly with the taxi driver for long or unusual trips.

For example: [https://www.jfkairport.com/to-from-airport/taxi-car-and-
van-...](https://www.jfkairport.com/to-from-airport/taxi-car-and-van-service)

> Taxis at JFK Airport charge a flat fare of $52 for trips between the airport
> and Manhattan. Taxis impose a $4.50 surcharge during peak hours (4-8 p.m.
> weekdays, excluding holidays), for a fare of $56.50.

~~~
kortilla
Most people aren’t going to/from the airport.

------
southphillyman
Do this and the market will speak. I view ridesharing mostly as a
luxury/convenience thing. My usage has already began to decline as prices have
risen locally. If they start operating like taxis then I'll use them as often
as taxis, which is to say rarely.

~~~
vineyardmike
2015+ when I started to use Uber was the most freeing time to be in a city.

You could always get home from a bar easily, in any weather. If you wanted to
explore, and got lost or walked too far, home was only a tap away.

It was such a convenience that after pricing, it was cheaper to Uber to work
and anywhere else I drove to than to own a car for me.

~~~
Rapzid
It really was all the convenience of a car without having to drive it. A
designated driver on call. And in cities where finding a cab was hard or next
to impossible.

------
scarejunba
Saw this coming. Bought a car. I just drive everywhere in SF. This is great.
My commute stays the same (8 min) + parking and walking time (6 mins).

As a bonus when I hang out with my friends I "can't" drink which is a nice
constraint on myself.

------
piyushpr134
Uber has made the taxi market worse off than govt controlled taxi services,
when it comes to pricing, safety and affordability.

These shady practices prove that the interventions such as surge pricing is
just a money making scheme for them. If you disagree, then explain to me as to
why does surge pricing increases their commission ? And does it not give them
incentive to always surge. I can agree with a peak hour surcharge to increase
supply but surge and these kind of things show that they are just money
fleecing business

