
Xeer - mazsa
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xeer
======
cup
I must admit I was confused to see xeer being posted to HN. Its interesting to
contemplate the unique history of Somalia and the Somali people and how it
fits into the greater African jigsaw puzzle.

I think the article is slightly misinformed however, the Sharia legal and
judicial instrument which was adopted by the Somali people after the growth of
the Muslim faith in the region was another system of justice and social order
that arrived well before attempted European colonisation.

On a tangent, interesting things are happening with the Somali federal
government now with respect to the telecommunications industry. Not only does
Somalia now have its own top down domain (.so) but fiber optic lines are
slowly being rolled out in the capital.

I find it ironic to think that in Australia the government is singing praises
for copper network lines (after repealing the NBN) yet war torn anarchic
Somali is pushing in the other direction. Somalia and Africas future really
does look interesting.

~~~
dfc
Why is it ironic that Australia is singing the praises of copper? Can you
imagine anyone thinking it would be a good idea to hang dollar bills from
wooden poles in a war torn country? After looking at Australia and Somalia's
history, geography and current economic development why would anyone think
what is good for one country would necessarily work for the other.

~~~
shiven
Perhaps you have some facts to support the Australian argument; but generally
older tech is supported and propped up by entrenched interests, focused on
their own profit margins, public good be damned.

~~~
dfc
Perhaps you can explain why you think I support the Australian argument? My
question about OP's concept of irony is not an endorsement of Australia's
policy. Or perhaps you can explain why you think Somalia and Australia have a
lot in common?

~~~
jessedhillon
He's not saying the irony is coming from Somalia's shunning of copper, but
from Australia's shunning of fiber in favor of an older technology. The irony
is that the poorer country has the superior tech. You simply seem like someone
who wants to point out that running copper is like hanging dollar bills
because, you know, the Poors.

~~~
dfc

      > seem like someone who wants to point out that running copper is
      > like hanging dollar bills because, you know, the Poors.
    

I do not not know what this means. What kind of person is that?

I have never seen a civil society / NGO telecom development project that did
not rule out running copper in an impoverished country with a weak government.
Have you? The problem is not "the poors." The problem is a failed economy and
no rule of law.

~~~
praxeologist
>The problem is a failed economy and no rule of law.

You obviously have no clue about the real happenings of Somalia. The standards
of living, core metrics like life expectancy, all of them really except school
enrollment, have increased despite being anarchic for the last 20+ years. In
comparison to neighbors like Ethiopia, Somalia is doing well. If you look at
mobile adoption and access to tech, the improvement in Somalia outshadows most
other African countries.

There is the rule of law where Xeer is used. Xeer is suppressed only in the
area of the south where war is being waged between UN insurgents and al-
Shabaab fighters. The rest of the country beyond Galkayo (Puntland and
Somaliland) is not a "failed economy" by any measure besides the faulty
assumption that an economy requires strict intervention in a western-
progressive style.

~~~
dfc

      > The standards of living, core metrics like life expectancy, all of
      > them really except school enrollment, have increased despite being
      > anarchic for the last 20+ years.
    

Can you provide any of these statistics?

I am genuinely interested in seeing these statistics because the picture you
paint of Somalia is much rosier than the picture painted by the people at the
Somali-Bantu Community Center in my county. I am trying to keep an open mind
but I have to admit my skepticism about the situation in somalia meant that I
read your comment as:

"All of the core metrics [ _except education but everyone knows education is a
useless metric for judging living conditions_ ] in Somalia have increased [
_from zero_ ] because it has been hellish in Somalia for twenty years.

There is a functioning economy and rule of law in Somalia [ _if you exclude
the south where there is not a lot of positive things to talk about except
that the government official targeted in yesterdays car bombing was not among
the 11 people killed_ ]."

~~~
praxeologist
edit: You added an edit for everything beyond "Can you provide any of these
statistics?"

My response to the rest is below ----

See Spencer Heath MacCallum's _The Rule of Law without the State_ here:
[http://mises.org/daily/2701](http://mises.org/daily/2701)

>Imagine any part of the globe not being dominated by a central government and
the people there surviving, even prospering. If such were to happen and the
idea spread to other parts of Africa or other parts of the world, the mystique
of the necessity of the state might be irreparably damaged, and many
politicians and bureaucrats might find themselves walking about looking for
work.

>If the expectation was that Somalia would plunge into an abyss of chaos, what
is the reality? A number of recent studies address this question, including
one by economist Peter Leeson drawing on statistical data from the United
Nations Development Project, World Bank, CIA, and World Health Organization.
_Comparing the last five years under the central government (1985–1990) with
the most recent five years of anarchy (2000–2005)_ , Leeson finds these
welfare changes:

\- Life expectancy increased from 46 to 48.5 years. This is a poor expectancy
as compared with developed countries. But in any measurement of welfare, what
is important to observe is not where a population stands at a given time, but
what is the trend. Is the trend positive, or is it the reverse?

\- Number of one-year-olds fully immunized against measles rose from 30 to 40
percent.

\- Number of physicians per 100,000 population rose from 3.4 to 4.

\- Number of infants with low birth weight fell from 16 per thousand to 0.3 —
almost none.

\- Infant mortality per 1,000 births fell from 152 to 114.9.

\- Maternal mortality per 100,000 births fell from 1,600 to 1,100.

\- Percent of population with access to sanitation rose from 18 to 26.

\- Percent of population with access to at least one health facility rose from
28 to 54.8.

\- Percent of population in extreme poverty (i.e., less than $1 per day) fell
from 60 to 43.2.

\- Radios per thousand population rose from 4 to 98.5.

\- Telephones per thousand population rose from 1.9 to 14.9.

\- TVs per 1,000 population rose from 1.2 to 3.7.

\- Fatalities due to measles fell from 8,000 to 5,600.

You can verify any of these statistics yourself through sources like the
mentioned CIA Factbook: [https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-
factbook/...](https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-
factbook/geos/so.html)

\----

>I am genuinely interested in seeing these statistics because the picture you
paint of Somalia is much rosier than the picture painted by the people at the
Somali-Bantu Community Center in my county. I am trying to keep an open mind
but I have to admit my skepticism about the situation in somalia meant that I
read your comment as:

>"All of the core metrics [except education but everyone knows education is a
useless metric for judging living conditions] in Somalia have increased [from
zero] because it has been hellish in Somalia for twenty years.

>There is a functioning economy and rule of law in Somalia [if you exclude the
south where there is not a lot of positive things to talk about except that
the government official targeted in yesterdays car bombing was not among the
11 people killed]."

Bantu in Somalia are part of the chaotic southwest. The southwestern provinces
such as Bay and Bakool have recently either declared autonomy from Mogadishu
or have started to discuss it.

The port city of Kismayo had been a pivotal stronghold for al-Shabaab who held
it for the past few years. Al-Shabaab has lost a ton of ground in the past
year whereas it had controlled the majority of south Somalia for the three
years or so prior.

There was a shit ton of military action and natural disasters such as the
drought affecting this area, so certainly this part of the country is no
utopia.

The other parts of the country is like another world. As al-Shabaab has lost
ground in the south, they have moved some operations to the divided city of
Galkayo. 1/3 of the city is controlled by the south and whatever Transitional
Government is ruling now while the other 2/3 of the city is part of Puntland.
This is about the extent of violence in Somalia. Coincidentally, the 2/3 of
the geographical area of Somalia besides south of Galkayo.. the Horn and
Somaliland, are relatively peaceful with only a dash of violence spreading
from the UN conflict zone.

Education matters, I was just mentioning the truth that all metrics have
improved besides schools. You can make of that what you want. There was no
real widespread schooling system before and there isn't one still. The UN-
backed Transitional Government is having a hard time keeping terrorist
bombings out of Mogadishu, so it isn't anywhere near spreading schools around
the country.

~~~
dfc
Is the 2007 blog post titled "The Rule of Law without the State" from a well
known libertarian organization your only source for these statistics?

    
    
      > verify any of these statistics yourself  
    

Do you define verify any of these statistics as 25% of these statistics?
Because I could only find the following on the CIA page. (The UNDP and the IMF
list Somalia as data deficient.)

\- Physicians per 100,000:4 (this is tenth lowest and FYI the CIA uses per 1k)

\- Infant mortality: 3rd highest 100 Afghanistan highest at 114.

\- Maternal morbidity: 1,000 3rd behind South Sudan (2,000) and Chad (1,100)

\- Sanitation Down to 23%

~~~
praxeologist
>Is the 2007 blog post titled "The Rule of Law without the State" from a well
known libertarian organization your only source for these statistics?

The article is using the following sources as mentioned therein: "statistical
data from the United Nations Development Project, World Bank, CIA, and World
Health Organization"

You obviously have some sort of state apologist agenda by your intellectually
dishonest statements here.

If you are going to start spitting out statistics, you better provide a source
as well.

"Physicians per 100,000:4 (this is tenth lowest and FYI the CIA uses per 1k)"

Where are you getting 4 per 100K from? The CIA factbook says 4 per 1,000.

"Infant mortality: 3rd highest 100 Afghanistan highest at 114."

"Maternal morbidity: 1,000 3rd behind South Sudan (2,000) and Chad (1,100)"

Meanwhile the the facts are: 'Infant mortality per 1,000 births fell from 152
to 114.9' and 'Maternal mortality per 100,000 births fell from 1,600 to 1,100'

The point is there was improvement, not that Somalia is a great place to live
based on first-world country standards, so saying, "Oh that is still the 3rd
worst in the world!" is utterly irrelevant.

"Sanitation Down to 23%"

After an increase in the period discussed, the first 5 years of anarchy. The
CIA Factbook currently says 23.6% for _improved_ sanitation facilities, versus
26% mentioned in the article. Is this 3 percentage points of decrease that
important?

The fact remains that things have generally gotten better for Somalia despite
the terrible military and economic intervention.

~~~
dfc
I thought I had provided a source when I started spitting out sentences and
statistics like: "Because I could only find the following on the CIA page."
But I can make it even easier for you if you would like:

    
    
      >> "Physicians per 100k:4 (this is 10th lowest...)"
    
      > Where are you getting 4 per 100K from? 
      > The CIA factbook says 4 per 1,000.
    

Notice it says _Zero Dot Zero Four_ per 1,000: "0.04 physicians/1,000
population (2006)" Source: [https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-
world-factbook/...](https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-
factbook/fields/2226.html#so)

Or do you need a source for the math? I do not think converting 0.04/1,000 to
4/100,000 is part of the proprietary math instruction I received at the state-
apologist reeducation camp.

    
    
      > "Infant mortality: 3rd highest 100 ...
    

Source: [https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-
factbook/...](https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-
factbook/rankorder/2091rank.html?countryname=Somalia&countrycode=so&regionCode=afr&rank=3#so)

    
    
      > "Maternal morbidity: 1,000 3rd behind South Sudan...
    

Source: [https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-
factbook/...](https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-
factbook/rankorder/2223rank.html?countryname=Somalia&countrycode=so&regionCode=afr&rank=3#so)

    
    
      > "Sanitation Down to 23%"
    

Source: [https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-
factbook/...](https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-
factbook/fields/2217.html#so)

    
    
      > The CIA Factbook currently says 23.6% for improved
      > sanitation facilities, versus 26% mentioned in the
      > article. Is this 3 percentage points of decrease that
      > important?
    
    

I was not making a judgement about the merits of the 3% drop, merely reporting
what I found when I could only verify 25% of the stats that you said I could
verify _any_ of. You thought that an 8% increase was noteworthy, why is a 3%
move the other way so inconsequential? I just noticed that you emphasized
_improved_ this is getting to bee too much, did you read the definition of
improved?

> Meanwhile the the facts are: 'Infant mortality per 1,000 births fell from
> 152 to 114.9' and 'Maternal mortality per 100,000 births fell from 1,600 to
> 1,100'

Everybody's stats for this fell:
[http://web.archive.org/web/20091028133430/https://www.cia.go...](http://web.archive.org/web/20091028133430/https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-
world-factbook/rankorder/2091rank.html)

    
    
      > The point is there was improvement, not that Somalia 
      > is a great place to live based on first-world country 
      > standards, so saying, "Oh that is still the 3rd worst 
      > in the world!" is utterly irrelevant.
    

When I said the problem in Somalia was "failed economy and no rule of law" you
replied that I "obviously have no clue about the real happenings of Somalia."
Nothing you have presented points to the conclusion that the economy has not
failed or that Somalia is reaping the benefits of the rule of law. "Things
have improved, Somalia is no longer the absolute worst place to live on earth"
is not the same as "functional economy and effective national government."

------
vacri
_Several scholars have noted that even though Xeer may be centuries old, it
has the potential to serve as the legal system of a modern, well-functioning
economy._

This makes no sense, given the remainder of the article, as a modern, well-
functioning economy (of which Somalia certainly does not have one) requires
diversity. Xeer relies heavily on ingrained cultural norms, and is
discriminatory against minorities and women. Lack of impartiality is also a
question, given that you are assigned a judge at birth.

It might work well in Somalia, but I can't see what is described as being
translatable elsewhere. There are some elements that aren't Xeer-specific
(like reducing focus on punitive measures), but as a whole, I can't see it
working somewhere else that doesn't have the same social structure.

~~~
gbog
I agree that the article makes no sense, but I think that modern society
"requires diversity" might be some kind of party line in the West and might be
no fully true. An example of successful society that is not highly "diverse"
is China. (Well China certainly is and was diverse, but not as much as current
Western societies).

~~~
Agathos
And before China you had Japan, South Korea, Taiwan, and Singapore.

~~~
w1ntermute
Singapore is a very diverse country, whether it be ethnically, linguistically,
or culturally.

------
gbog
There is this angle that says that natural laws are good, better than
"artificial" laws. It seems trendy nowadays and is emphasised in the article.

But another angle, that seem to describe more closely the long term evolution
and progress of human societies, is that laws and ethics have been slowly
built by human societies _against_ the law of nature. The direst way to
express this is that in a natural environment, the weak and the disabled are
left aside and die quickly, which we humans have decided to try hard to avoid.

So maybe a softer, more informal, "stateless" society like this Xeer could be
valuable. But if it was, it would be because it would better protect us from
the law of nature.

~~~
logicchains
>in a natural environment, the weak and the disabled are left aside and die
quickly

This simply isn't true[1]. Humans evolved feelings like compassion because
such cooperation and caring was beneficial to our survival. These emotions
exist outside of any deliberate human decision making or social planning. Even
monkeys have evolved forms of altruistic behaviour[2]. 'Ethics' in the sense
of empathy and compassionate behaviour is hence just as much a part of the
'law of nature' as the more violent behaviours associated with it.

1.[http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2864937/](http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2864937/)

2\. [http://www.motherjones.com/environment/2013/04/6-amazing-
way...](http://www.motherjones.com/environment/2013/04/6-amazing-ways-animals-
show-compassion)

~~~
humanrebar
> Humans evolved feelings like compassion because such cooperation and caring
> was beneficial to our survival.

That's a plausible hypothesis, but considering that it cannot be proven or
disproven, it is an ultimately uninteresting one. gbog was talking about
social evolution, which is a topic of social sciences. On second thought,
perhaps reclassifying evolutionary psychology as a social science would be in
order.

~~~
logicchains
Gbog spoke of the 'state of nature' as something characterised by a lack of
altruistic behaviour towards weaker members of the species. Assuming
altruistic behaviour can be quantified, that's a claim that could be verified
or disproved empirically.

------
tokenadult
"The life of the law has not been logic; it has been experience." \-- Oliver
Wendell Holmes, Jr., The Common Law (1881) page 1. In other words, the Anglo-
American system of common law is a system that has developed by generalizing
from particular cases as they come up, and not by thinking from the top down
about what kind of rules would be ideal.

It's rich with deeper meaning that there are a number of comments here about
the development of rules and laws as we comment on an article posted on
Wikipedia. I am one of thousands of volunteer editors on Wikipedia (since May
2010) years after having been (1) an editor of a glossy monthly bilingual
publication about a foreign country as an expatriate resident of that country,
(2) an editor of a series of English-language trade magazines about
manufactured products from that same country, and (3) a student-editor
(usually the only kind of editor such a publication has) of a law review. I
started editing Wikipedia as late as I did, years after Wikipedia was founded,
because when I first heard about Wikipedia I thought its editorial policies
are madness--and, sure enough, the articles that resulted from the original
policy included a lot of cruft. As Wikipedia has continued in existence, it
has not been able to continue an Ayn Rand anarchy of bullies but has gradually
had to develop rules and procedures and (a little bit of) hierarchy and
organization. Most of the articles on the topics I do the most of my
professional research in are still LOUSY, and I have been interviewed twice by
the Wikipedia _Signpost_ in the last several months about what needs to be
done to improve articles on Wikipedia for various WikiProjects. The article
kindly submitted here illustrates the problem, with its incoherent
presentation of facts and speculation from a mixture of good and poor sources.

I live among the largest Somali expatriate community in the world outside
Somalia (Minneapolis and its suburbs--we can listen to Somali-language local
radio here since the 1990s) and have a new client for my supplementary
mathematics classes whose family is from Somalia. That country's internal
conditions during my adult life have been HARSH, and I don't envy any Somali
patriot's task in trying to build up a country with peace, stability, and
justice for all Somali citizens. I do wish all Somalis well in adapted
customary legal systems to the modern world.

~~~
SamReidHughes
It's amazing how this off-topic rambling is at the top of the page when there
are so many better posts below.

~~~
simonebrunozzi
Sam, tokenadult is by far my most favorite commenter on HN. In fact, I'm not
alone. Huge karma. That is one reason. The other reason might be that a few
people upvoted his comment, and that's why it's on top. Of course you might
disagree with the ranking, but ranking is there to give us an idea of what the
whole community thinks.

~~~
SamReidHughes
I don't care if he's your favorite commenter. _This_ comment of his is just a
simulation of a cogent post. It's "rich with deeper meaning" that it's a
Wikipedia article? Give me a break. You can sit there rattling about Wikipedia
and deign to wish Somalis well all you want, but that has nothing to do with
Xeer.

------
johnzim
From a jurisprudential point of view it's interesting to see how it evolved -
the law in England moved out of the church and Xeer appears to have been born
out of the reigning power in Somalia (elders) and remained therein.

I'll take the English common law and equity any day of the week - flexible
where it needs to be so it's capable of applying concepts of natural justice
constrained by well established principle, while still providing vital
certainty as to the law. This passage in the wikipedia article makes the legal
scholar in me shiver:

"The lack of a central governing authority means that there is a slight
variation in the interpretation of Xeer amongst different communities"

Dealing with conflict of laws without prejudicing parties in an international
setting is hard enough: imagine having to pursue justice according to
discrepancies between individual communities! Better have some cast-iron
choice-of-law clauses in those trade agreements!

~~~
ianbicking
There is an attempt to find a proper jurisdiction: "A case is always heard at
the lowest level of the clan that is possible. This ranges from the qoys
(nuclear family), up through the reer (closest relatives), jilib (first diya
group), and laaf (sub-clan) to the qolo (clan)."

------
616c
I also find the name somewhat ironic.

Xeer clearly comes from خير, or khayr, which is Arabic for good. It is good,
but in the higher moralistic and religious sense in addition to the normal
sense. So I wonder if it goes back to original interaction with the Arabs, 7th
century as noted or prior. The general idea, consensus-based law as I see it,
seems similar on the basic principle in Islam to Ijma'[0], or consensus-based
formation of jurisprudence. There are varying views, but that idea is that
Islamic law (despite outside views of it) is not controlled by one but must be
agreed upon by popular approval of jurisprudence scholars (of course this is
loosely defined, but what can you do).

Xeer is definitely from the Arabic, as are many loanwords from Somali (as an
Arabic speaker, who sat in linguistics courses where Somali speakers
presented, I could be wrong). So I am not sure where the "no foreign
loanwords" comment in the Wikipedia article came from.

Then again, maybe I am just reading to much into this name/book cover.

[0] [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ijma](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ijma)

~~~
genieyclo
Xeer != khayr. X in Somali is the letter ح not خ. Has nothing to do with
Arabic.

Xeer has existed for a long time, and probably longer than Islam has since
there's similar systems of communal law and arbitration in neighboring
communities like Gadaa that can be traced back to the pre-Islamic era.

~~~
616c
Oh oh oh. Now I look like an ass. When I read the Wikipedia article, I thought
the transcription meant x->خ, but I guess you show why one must, like a
programmer, continue to use IPA consistently or forget only to make very
embarrassing public mistakes.

And now to come full circle, the root structure for xeer in Arabic means
confusion. Should have seen that one coming. Haha.

EDIT: Do you have resources on Xeer and similar practices with Gaada? I have
some friends who would be very interested in these topics.

------
antirez
That may seem strange, but in Europe there are places where a similar
"juridical" system was used too, which is, in Sicily. It was common for Mafia
bosses and other respected older people to act as third party in order to
judge disputes between people.

~~~
genieyclo
There are lots of parallels between the mafia system and Somali clan society.
You pay your regular dues (in Somali, "qaaraan") that could be spent on
anything from helping a destitute clansman get healthcare or a funeral, or
help fund a clan militia's war. In return, you're under the protection of the
clan on a blood-for-blood basis, guaranteed support and safety when the need
arises.

Just like the mafia system has it's downsides, so does the Somali system as
evidenced by going on several decades of bloodshed now.

~~~
wmt
That seems to parallel some other systems too where you pay the rulers a tax
which gets used to fund stuff like healthcare or wars.

~~~
praxeologist
"That" is a totally imagined mischaracterization of how Xeer law works. See
here for how it actually works:
[http://www.daviddfriedman.com/Academic/Course_Pages/legal_sy...](http://www.daviddfriedman.com/Academic/Course_Pages/legal_systems_very_different_12/Book_Draft/Systems/SomaliLawChapter.html)

------
neotrinity
How is it different from [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Local_self-
government_in_India#...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Local_self-
government_in_India#Early_history) ??

which has been practised from way before 7th century ?

[ The Tone of the question is curiosity and not a flame-bait please]

~~~
BugBrother
I was wondering about similarities to the old "ting" in Scandinavia, which
regulated clan feuds, etc.

Afaik, some kind of laws are common in clan societies. E.g. blood price,
mentioned in the wikipedia article, was common in historical clan societies.
(Famously, in Sweden if you killed someone from "Småland" in "Götaland", it
was free. :-) )

How different is Xeer?

~~~
LyndsySimon
> I was wondering about similarities to the old "ting" in Scandinavia, which
> regulated clan feuds, etc.

Is this related to the "farthings" of the Icelandic Commonwealth?

Wiki link:
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Icelandic_Commonwealth#Court_sy...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Icelandic_Commonwealth#Court_system)

~~~
BugBrother
See the "Althing" in that article. It varied over time, later the laws got
written down. And, as the article noted, on Iceland people always were too
busy surviving to do as much of the usual clan violence.

There are quite a few place names in Sweden with "ting" in them, e.g.
"Tingvalla". (I assume it is similar in the other Scandinavian countries.)

------
fiatjaf
For people interested in common law and the problems of the State law system,
I recommend the articles on the topic by John Hasnas:

THE MYTH OF THE RULE OF LAW:
[http://faculty.msb.edu/hasnasj/GTWebSite/MythWeb.htm](http://faculty.msb.edu/hasnasj/GTWebSite/MythWeb.htm)
HAYEK, THE COMMON LAW, AND FLUID DRIVE:
[http://faculty.msb.edu/hasnasj/GTWebSite/NYUFinal.pdf](http://faculty.msb.edu/hasnasj/GTWebSite/NYUFinal.pdf)

~~~
praxeologist
Hasnas is good. Also consider Benson's _Customary Law with Private Means of
Resolving Disputes and Dispensing Justice: A Description of a Modern System of
Law and Order without State Coercion_ :
[http://mises.org/journals/jls/9_2/9_2_2.pdf](http://mises.org/journals/jls/9_2/9_2_2.pdf)

~~~
fiatjaf
Do you ever think about building a framework for injecting an anarchistic
customary law into our statist society using cryptography and the Internet?
Something like the bitcoin of law? I'm talking about something that could be
applied to the real world today, not to a group of crypto-anarchy enthusiasts.
I'm also not talking about smart contracts, as these need a legal structure to
work and cannot build it themselves.

I'm seeking people interested in this subject to exchange ideas.

~~~
saraid216
Well, let's start with a reasonably understood system: HN karma. Behaviors
that follow guidelines are upvoted; behaviors that violate them are downvoted.
Guidelines are implicitly created (customary law) by edge-case upvotes and
downvotes. What does it not address that your system would need to?

(This is not a rhetorical question; it would help me understand what you're
trying to achieve.)

~~~
fiatjaf
More could/should be added, because the real world is complex. For an ideal
world we would probably need a framework that would support: support for
courts/judges (human parties that could issue their verdict on cases and
compete for cases), a system for proving real world identities (could be done
by trusted human parties, maybe the same courts/judges, that could operate on
the real world also, seeking the people outside the system), long written text
descriptions of cases and testimonies, a search engine. I don't know. What do
you think?

Another major problem is the State, that would probably try to make this
system illegal if it becomes popular. This shouldn't be a problem for the
system itself, because it could work on a peer-to-peer basis, but to the
parties involved in the cases, if their names are made public.

------
disputin
"Court procedure..... In a murder case, the offender flees to a safe place –
including outside the country – to avoid prosecution or execution "Qisaas." "

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noiv
Very interesting. Wasn't aware of alternatives to the western legal system
hundreds of years old and actually widely accepted.

~~~
praxeologist
Xeer is one example of the success of private, customary and polycentric law.
The Lex Mercatoria as the other poster noted is one more example.

See also Zomia: [http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/02/14/the-
undiscov...](http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/02/14/the-undiscovered-
country/)

Medieval Iceland: [http://mises.org/daily/1121](http://mises.org/daily/1121)

and Ireland (page 3):
[https://mises.org/journals/lf/1971/1971_04.pdf](https://mises.org/journals/lf/1971/1971_04.pdf)

People are waxing about the superiority of "British common law" while its
roots are a system of the Anglo-Saxons extremely similar to the Xeer.

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blueskin_
>stateless society

Sounds to me like a nicer way of saying failed state, which is what Somalia
is.

~~~
iand
Why say failed state? Do you presume that all countries must have a state?

~~~
blueskin_
The alternative is anarchy. Communists like to say that anarchy would be happy
rainbows and sharing, but the closest nations we have to it are mostly in
Africa, and more resemble feudal warlords than a utopian society.

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mcguire
" _People who have migrated to locations far removed from their homes can also
find themselves without adequate representation at Xeer proceedings._ "

That kinda sounds like a problem.

~~~
notahacker
It's OK, there should be some relatives around to make a restorative payment
of camels or wives. Unless they're from a particularly powerful clan, in which
case they may be able to avoid paying the _Diya_ even if they can't swing the
outcome of the case.

Personally I find it quite odd that so many self-proclaimed libertarians are
so favourably disposed towards what is essentially a system for punishing the
collective for the actions of the individual.

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nighthawk24
Gram Panchayat in Indian villages often meet under trees too
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gram_panchayat](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gram_panchayat)

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anubiann00b
This won't work for large societies (unfortunately).

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dr_faustus
And everybody knows: Somalia is paradise! You can even become a pirate!
Arrrrrr!

