
Law of Jante - monort
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_Jante
======
jernfrost
I think foreigners tend to profoundly misunderstand what the law of Jante is
about. It is not guidelines for how to behave in Scandinavia. It is a
caricature we use ourselves to fight negative aspects of our culture. IMHO it
is the negative aspects of things which are actually positive in Scandinavia.
Humbleness, solidarity, consensus seeking, honesty are good Scandinavian
virtuous. But there is always a flip side of the coin.

It is like in America, having faith in yourself and be proud of yourself are
virtuous things, but there is also a flip side to it which is negative. That
is bragging, being self centered and selfish. Taking sole credit for success
of which you were only a participant.

Janteloven is not something to be celebrated but a rethotical tool to use
against fellow Scandinavians when they are acting too negative towards an
individual trying to do something great and new.

~~~
yolio
I don't really find the law of jante very applicable to Scandinavia, at least
not uniquely so. Scandinavia is in many ways one of the most individualistic
places in the world, in terms of things like social values or religion.

It's seem like most people who mention the law either seem to describe things
prevalent in many parts of the world, don't agree with egalitarianism or
dislikes the fore mentioned individualism.

~~~
paloaltokid
How much time have you spent in Scandinavia? I grew up there and it's very
much alive and well.

~~~
yolio
Most of my life.

I don't deny there is a certain consensus driven culture with a general fear
of conflict. But I don't agree that Scandinavia in particular has, as people
tend to argue, a dislike for successful people nor necessarily of people being
different, as long as there is also substance. Especially with there being so
many well liked successful Scandinavians. It seems to me like people most
often mean:

A) That the grass is greener somewhere else. Which can be true in many cases,
but is usually more down to individual circumstances.

B) That they like more appreciation for their social status. As in more
egalitarian societies few things are by themselves impressive.

C) Or that they actually want more collectivism and people to be invested in
their success, in contrast to the sometimes cold Scandinavian individualism.

In term more destructive collectivism I think the US/UK (who loves to hate
celebrities), central Europe (where everyone have only themselves to blame)
and Asia (with a lot of social pressure) is worse.

------
interfixus
Moderation and a comparatively egalitarian approach are quintessential Danish
qualities, all too often thoughtlessly maligned and ridiculed. The fact is,
for better or worse, these traits have served us well as a functioning society
for the last thousand years, and in my guess, far longer back than that. A few
data points: The last Danish regent or head of government to die violently was
king Erik Klipping. The date may resonate with some Americans. It was the 22nd
of November. But it was in the year 1286. We have had no real civil warfare
since the late viking age. Some unrest leading up to the reformation ("Count's
Feud") was actually a war against North Germans. The reformation itself was
settled fairly amicably. No real bloodshed, the monks and nuns were often
allowed to stay in their monastries for as long as they lived. No pitched
battles in 1848/49\. A delegation went and saw the king. A democratic
constitution was announced. An overwhelming majority of Danish jews escaped
unharmed to neutral Sweden in 1943, a thing only possible because of a quiet
but widespread support in the general population.

Really, we haven't done too badly. But it's not a societal model particularly
well geared towards the present day influx of large numbers of people with
quite different and often more muscular attitudes to everyday interictions.

~~~
FelixGommen
Well I think the schleswig-holsteiners would disagree. They fought two wars
before they were allowed to decide for themselves:-)

~~~
interfixus
There were complex aspects about both those wars. But they were indisputably
fought between Danes and Germans. Schleswig-Holstein was a German duchy under
the Danish king, _not_ a paart of Denmark proper.

The second war, in 1864, ended with a huge loss of Danish territory to the
emerging German superstate. The northern half of this territory was returned
to Denmark in 1920, with the southern remaining German. This was the result of
a referendum in the wake of World War 1. Everything was orderly and civilized,
and the border region to this day remains a model of how to handle such things
without undue upheaval - thus exactly confirming my point above.

~~~
FelixGommen
Well - that is how things evolved - but in the early 800, when the ejderen
border was created no one thought of themselves as german.

~~~
interfixus
Probably not. Although I am getting ever more suspicious about the latter day
dogma about the nation as a purely modern invention. Denmark was well enough
defined and understood a thousand years ago.

------
spectaclepiece
You learn about this when you grow up in Sweden.

Wise people will tell you to disregard it as it won't get you anywhere.

Wise listeners will take that advice to heart but also refrain from mentioning
their progress too much as that might put sticks in the wheels when moving
through society.

The end result is perhaps something resembling humbleness. Which, if it comes
from the heart, is a beautiful quality to have and strive for. But when its
imposed on you by society gets a slightly more ominous tint.

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ThomPete
As a Dane, this is what I grew up with. One of the reasons I love living in
New York is that it's simply non-existent.

However, I do think the Law of Jante exists in most small communities where
being the same is considered a virtue.

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imartin2k
As a German living in Sweden since more than a decade ago, I've often
appreciated the impact the Law of Jante has on Swedish culture. However, at
least in central Stockholm, many people nowadays express aversion against the
Jante Law, as they associate it with the old socialist Sweden in which many of
the freedoms (and choices) of today apparently didn't exist. I'd assume though
that it still works as a guiding principle in many decisions Swedes make and
behavior they demonstrate - no matter what they publicly say about this
philosophy. Compared to Germans and many other cultures I know, Swedes are
pretty good at not taking themselves too seriously, which I consider to be a
result of Jante.

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vonnik
Wow. I just learned about this on a visit to Norway. The way it was explained
to me, this is one factor that could hold the Norwegians back as they move
toward a post-oil economy, because they're going to need to focus on sectors
like tech where there's huge variance in talent and outcomes which they'll
have to accept to make it work. That said, there was some great activity in
Oslo during Innovation Week.

~~~
jernfrost
It is a caricature and not exactly how we act in Norway. I work in the
Norwegian tech sector and don't really see this as the problem.

The problem is more about getting investors to novel ideas. It is much easier
to get investors to back crazy ideas in the US than in Norway.

Other than that I think Norway has many strengths. It has an efficient
government where it is easy and quick to start a company. Unlike the US
starting a company is low risk because you got covered with public health care
regardless. You got good unemployment benefits you can use for a year while
getting your company up and running.

I honestly never felt there was a shirtage of ideas and talent in Norway. The
problem is on the business side of things. We are poor at marketing ourselves
and think in terms of how to profit from innovations.

But it is in no way impossibe to make it in Norway. Most of our billionaires
are self made. In fact we have more billionaires prr capita than the US and
more social mobility.

~~~
vonnik
I totally buy that Norway has many strengths, and like I said, I was really
impressed with the entrepreneurs I met there.

I think the problem with cultivating a tech ecosystem in many first-world
cities is the lack of capital channeled through sophisticated investors who
can deploy it in tech.

That's one factor behind Silicon Valley's continued gravity for international
entrepreneurs -- they keep running into the funding gaps in their homelands.
Sadly, the Trump administration seems to be making it harder for international
talent and international capital to meet in the US.

I lived in Europe for many years, and saw a lot of capital that just wanted a
safe real estate bet.

> Most of our billionaires are self made. In fact we have more billionaires
> per capita than the US and more social mobility.

Sure. But Norway is a country with enormous oil reserves, like the Gulf
Emirates. That's basically luck. The question is: How can you build an economy
with less/zero dependence on arbitrary allocations of natural resources,
especially given that the price of energy is trending toward zero?

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schoen
I'm reminded of
[http://www.paulgraham.com/cities.html](http://www.paulgraham.com/cities.html)
(and I was curious how much people who've lived in each place agree with the
descriptions of the messages, and how stable they are over time).

------
digi_owl
Not this again...

------
diminish
How then in Sweden we have a startup boom?

~~~
ThomPete
Because it has nothing to do with the Jante Law. Those who succeed don't
comply to it.

~~~
Grustaf
Sure they do, at least some of them. People frown upon anyone, including
billionaires, who is too full of themselves, and I think you can definitely
tell the difference if you compare the 1% in Scandinavia with places such as
New York.

An anecdote will illustrate what I mean. My mother was at the pharmacy once,
and as the lady at the register was explaining to the man in front of her how
the discount system works, with stamps etc he listened politely and patiently.
She couldn't have guessed that he was the owner of H&M, the 17th richest man
in the world.

The older I get and the more I travel the more I appreciate this aspect of
life in Scandinavia and I don't think there is any indication that this has
hampered growth or entrepreneurship, quite the opposite.

The point is not that you shouldn't do your best, succeed and make a lot of
money, it's about how you should behave if you do succeed.

~~~
ThomPete
Not sure I understand what you are arguing compared to what I said. Can you be
a little more specific.

~~~
Grustaf
Maybe I misunderstood you, but it seems you're saying that people _either_
"comply" with Jante or succeed, but my point was that Jante, broadly
understood, affects even successful people.

Sure, if you take it literally then I suppose it would stop people from
succeeding but the way I see it "Jante" is what explains the relative humility
of many successful Scandinavians. In a way it's just a flippant way to
describe the (downsides of) the Nordic egalitarianism, as argued eloquently
elsewhere. So in that sense there is no real opposition between Sweden being
full of successful entrepreneurs while enforcing Jante.

~~~
ThomPete
Humility is not what Jante Law is about. Jante Law is about conformity. You
definitely don't have to live in Scandinavia to be a humble millionaire or
even billionaire. In fact, one could argue that the successful people in
Scandinavia are humble because of the fear of the Jante Law.

All I was saying is that people who are successful mostly ignore the Jante Law
otherwise they wouldn't try to become successful, to begin with.

None of this is an exact science of course.

~~~
Grustaf
>In fact, one could argue that the successful people in Scandinavia are humble
because of the fear of the Jante Law.

This is pretty much what I _am_ arguing.

~~~
ThomPete
Ok, not sure how that contradicts what I said which was about becoming
successful not about how you deal with the law.

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dixie_land
are we seriously not gonna mention that this is a thing because Nordic
countries have a homogeneous population?

try not to stand out when you're the only person in the room that's not a 6 ft
tall pale skinned blonde

~~~
jlarsson89
It refers to fashion, behaviour and the like, not your natural physical
attributes, that I may add are not quite accurate either. I am not 6' tall nor
am I blond, despite being to my knowledge ethnically Swedish or Scandinavian
since at least a century back. I moved away from Sweden a couple of years ago
but the Sweden in which I grew up in there were a lot of immigrants for
various reasons and by now a couple of generations of them. Some of these
people have now become major popculture phenomenons precisely because they do
not follow the stereotypical Law of Jante characteristics, most notably Zlatan
Ibrahimovic who is no stranger to claiming to be the best or speaking his
mind.

Personally, I find the effect of the Law of Jante to in many cases hold back
the progress of Sweden, in that the desire to improve is often low to non-
existent, okay is preferable.

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DonbunEf7
Leprous, a Norwegian band, has an album "Tall Poppy Syndrome" with lyrics
which reflect this law:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=36HuYPnx5oE](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=36HuYPnx5oE)

------
pdog
You can condense the ten rules down to one:

1\. You're not to think.

~~~
chc
I think "Be humble" would be a better one-line version. They're basically
about not believing oneself superior to others.

~~~
asdfasfhretwt
Not really. Notice the stuff about you not being better than us or having
anything to teach us. Janteloven has the flip side that everyone thinks that
they have nothing to learn.

