
Havana syndrome: Exposure to neurotoxin may have been cause, study suggests - goodcanadian
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/havana-syndrome-neurotoxin-enqu-te-1.5288609
======
aug_aug
Possibly related tidbit - I used to roll my own cigarettes when working in the
field as a geologist, left a pack of papers under the seat of my truck which
had no carpeting, spilled 100% DEET on the floor, DEET absorbed into pack of
papers. Months later found those same papers (what luck!) and rolled a
cigarette without thinking about it, minutes later I was asking my now wife if
she "could hear the helicopter sounds!!?" and thought I was losing my mind. I
put it all together weeks later when I remembered the DEET spill from several
months earlier. Pesticides/insecticides, in my experience at least, can induce
those symptoms, lol - maybe the mosquito spraying was a little heavy by the
hotel? And now I hope I don't have brain damage, thanks internet.

~~~
skim_milk
When my father was a child, he would bike behind the trucks that sprayed DDT
all over the neighborhood because the DDT mist kept him cool. I hope you'll be
fine, because people have done much worse!

~~~
t1lthesky
Ha I remember doing the same thing when I was ~6 years old in South Korea.
There would be these trucks that went around spraying mosquito killing fog in
the apartment complexes and all the little kids from the neighborhood would
run behind them.

Well now I'm 30 and so far things seem to be ok! Fingers crossed

~~~
therein
Yup, this has been my experience growing up outside of the US.

Watching this video made me facepalm really hard.

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h2NmuQW8cjE](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h2NmuQW8cjE)

~~~
emerongi
The description on that video is hilarious.

------
PentiumBug
(Cuban here.) I find this result very interesting, really, as we're exposed to
these chemicals in varying degrees and frequency. I personally live in a
epidemiological controlled/safe (-ish) area of Havana, so my exposure is very
limited. However, I do know that some other areas are way more affected by
vectors since they are less urbanized and with more population density.

In those cases the authorities are more aggressive in the use of mass
fumigation, particularly during the summer and autumn; but still I don't think
that such elevated frequency produces the effects shown in the article, for
the general population, that is.

It is true that we're particularly vulnerable to zika, chikungunya, yellow
fever, and dengue fever (especially in 2016); and what I can easily imagine
(and conjecture) is that diplomatic personnel were overly (and rightly)
concerned, and liberally applied these products with more zeal than necessary.
Thus, increased their exposition to these chemicals.

~~~
goodcanadian
They were apparently spraying INSIDE the offices. I'm not particularly
concerned about pesticides in general, but I would NEVER use them indoors.

Also, the diplomatic buildings are likely well sealed and air conditioned
while I suspect local buildings use more natural cooling (open windows and the
breeze) and are thus better ventilated.

------
alexandercrohde
tl; dr:

\- Neurological studies show actual damage to the same region of the brain for
these diplomats

\- Pesticides (organophosphates) are put out as a candidate theory.

\- Research shows people whose residences were sprayed MORE with pesticide had
greater symptoms, adding strong evidence

\- Mass Hysteria is dismissed as a theory, as the group of people experiencing
it is highly vetted and because the diagnosis is only applicable when no
underlying cause is present. In this case, the actual measurement of the brain
show there is damage, ruling out the theory.

~~~
wyldfire
> The embassies actively sprayed in offices, as well as inside and outside
> diplomatic residences — sometimes five times more frequently than usual.
> Many times, spraying operations were carried out every two weeks, according
> to embassy records.

This suggests that in fact it was the US government (following the host
government's lead) that introduced the toxin into their environment. If so, it
seems like the Cubans may be owed an apology.

But did the embassy use stronger concentration than Cuba? Or a different
agent? Are any local Havanans experiencing these symptoms?

~~~
alexandercrohde
The article answers this

~~~
wyldfire
Specifically this section I suppose:

> The symptoms experienced by the victims — headaches, hearing loss, cognitive
> problems, loss of balance, etc. — are frequently found in the general
> population, these scientists argued, and can be attributed to many causes.

~~~
zkms
also page 35 mentions that there's genetic factors (PON1 gene) that affect
organophosphate susceptibilities

~~~
tudorw
Possibly CYP2D6 polymorphism has a role too
[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26723569](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26723569)

------
hellofunk
> The embassies actively sprayed in offices, as well as inside and outside
> diplomatic residences — sometimes five times more frequently than usual.
> Many times, spraying operations were carried out every two weeks, according
> to embassy records.

Wow, that is really alarming. I would never feel comfortable with that inside
my home or office.

~~~
bilbo0s
You kind of wonder, if someone's fumigating your office that often, and then
you suddenly get sick, why wouldn't that be the first thing you look at?

Like, "Hmm, what about this giant cloud of bug spray? Maybe I'm allergic or
something?"

Why did they jump to, "The Cubans must have Marvin the Martian's P-U-38
Explosive Space Modulator that they're shooting at my ears."

~~~
agapon
But, did the spraying start short time before the symptoms appeared? Or has it
been going on for a long while? In the latter case, it's not strange that they
didn't make a connection initially, because "nothing changed".

------
narrator
Reminds me of all the people mysteriously dying in the Dominican Republic[1].
The best I could figure out from reading about it was that illegal pesticides
were being used in hotels to eradicate bed bugs and they ended up getting on
bottles of stuff in the minibar and in the food and randomly killing or making
people extremely sick all over the country and the resort chains covered it
up.

[1][https://nypost.com/2019/06/28/fbi-to-release-toxicology-
resu...](https://nypost.com/2019/06/28/fbi-to-release-toxicology-results-in-
rash-of-dominican-republic-deaths/)

~~~
zkms
also reminiscent of
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chlorpyrifos#Tourist_deaths](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chlorpyrifos#Tourist_deaths)

------
throwaway66920
Maybe we would use less pesticides if we just called them neurotoxins.

~~~
fritzw
Fun story... VX nerve agent was discovered and originally introduced as a
pesticide.
[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/VX_(nerve_agent)](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/VX_\(nerve_agent\))

~~~
vilhelm_s
Not exactly VX, but Amiton (also known as Tetram or VG). It's about one tenth
as toxic as VX, and similar in toxicity as sarin.

In 1975 the Iraqi ministry of agriculture negotiated with a U.S. company,
Pfaudler, for a contract to build a pesticide production plant. The deal
eventually fell through because Pfaudler did not understand why the Iraqis
insisted on manufacturing Amiton instead of some safer alternative.

------
cat199
Interesting findings, but how do we blame the Russians for this?

[https://www.nbcnews.com/news/latin-america/u-s-officials-
sus...](https://www.nbcnews.com/news/latin-america/u-s-officials-suspect-
russia-mystery-attacks-diplomats-cuba-china-n908141)

" The suspicion that Russia is likely behind the alleged attacks is backed up
by evidence from communications intercepts, known in the spy world as signals
intelligence, amassed during a lengthy and ongoing investigation involving the
FBI, the CIA and other U.S. agencies. The officials declined to elaborate on
the nature of the intelligence. "

~~~
codezero
At this point I think we owe Cuba and Russia an apology for the hysteria
involved.

However, if you're looking for a reason you can always find one. From the
article, it sounds like the spraying of pesticides was "more than usual" which
might mean it was done intentionally to appear as an accident, since the
spraying is a good cover.

I expect this would be easy enough to check on if they _only_ sprayed with
more frequency at diplomatic residences and the embassy.

Edit: a few replies here are really more thoughtful than my comment. I
recommend reading them :)

~~~
gvb
> At this point I think we owe Cuba and Russia an apology for the hysteria
> involved.

We are at the point where we need to confirm the hypothesis. _If the
hypothesis is confirmed_ we owe Cuba and Russia an apology.

~~~
codezero
Yep. Fair conclusion thanks for pointing that out.

------
jlpom
I find this hypothesis slithly more plausible than a pulsed
radiofrequency/microwaves attack where the way this could alter white matter
seems unclear, but especially given a precedent [0] both are good candidates.

This is compatible in my view to a russian interference in the midst of
warming relations between Cuba and the US/Canada. The diplomats seems ro be
the only members of the embassy to be affected and the russians know how to
not leave their footprint when they don't want to (e.g. not Novitchok or
Polonium).

[0] :
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moscow_Signal](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moscow_Signal)

------
rb808
I preferred the top-secret Russian microwave neuro-weapon headlines. :)

------
hoseja
It was just a gas leak! Nothing to see here, move along citizen!

------
empath75
This seems completely plausible to me and I hope it puts the absurd "sonic
weapon" theory to bed. Combination of stress, genuine brain damage from
excessive pesticide fumigation, and a little bit of mass hysteria.

~~~
sohkamyung
For reference, the "sonic weapon" may have been very loud crickets [1]

[1] [https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/04/science/sonic-attack-
cuba...](https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/04/science/sonic-attack-cuba-
crickets.html)

