

What to do if you are a good developer but no designer? - kamme

My personal problem is that I have some good idea's and I can code (php /django) but I have close to no design skills whatsoever. I know what functions should be on the websites of my ideas but when I try to make a design in GIMP it just does'nt look good. I have the impression people can learn how to code to some degree, but you can't just learn how to make great designs.
Do you agree? Or what made you a coder and designer?
======
swivelmaster
The best thing that ever happened to me in terms of my design skills was
finding one person who knew a lot about design to rip my designs to shreds
every time.

The reason for that is simple: You have to develop your eye.

Let me explain. One of the first major pursuits I took up was music - playing
AND writing. Ever heard the phrase "develop your ear"? Basically, the more you
do it, and the more you can hear the difference between the crap coming out of
your instrument or computer sequencing program (in my case) and something
professional, the better you'll be at finding those subtle things that make it
that much better. When I got into recording engineering, I didn't know the
difference between electric guitar sounds besides "distorted" and "not
distorted." After getting feedback on my early mixes ("That sounds like
shit."), I can now guess amp manufacturers and guitar brands with pretty good
accuracy just by listening.

Now that I'm learning to code, I've discovered that it's similar. When I
started, the difference between bad complex code and good complex code was not
obvious to me. After having MY code refactored by my boss/mentor, I saw the
difference unfold before my very eyes. Now I get compliments for writing
clever, efficient code instead of "Um... can I sit down here? I'd like to go
over that with you..."

So basically, aside from practice, it's about learning what to look for. Learn
to identify what's good and what's bad about any design, and eventually, with
practice, your own designs will improve. You HAVE to have both components,
though, or you'll be stuck in an endless loop of making stuff that is
different without actually being better. (Personal experience.)

That said, go get a book on typography from the library. Make sure it's one
with lots and lots of pictures, diagrams, and full pages focusing on one or
two typefaces. You don't have to read it cover to cover, but get the basics.

Once you've started, identify a few friends who are either great designers or
at least who really know what they're talking about. Don't show it to random
people who will say "yeah I guess that's good." That means "I don't know much
about design, but that doesn't offend me so I guess it's okay." That's not
helpful.

Also, <http://kuler.adobe.com> is pretty cool for picking color schemes.

Before and after articles on redesigns of web sites and print materials are
really helpful as well.

Lastly, find some computer programs (NOT web apps) that look really good and
stare at them until your eyes hurt. Safari is one of my favorites - it looks
great, but everything that makes it look great is incredibly subtle - The font
rendering on the bookmark bar has a nearly invisible bevel, which inverts on
mouseover (for instance).

EDIT: After an hour or so, I realized that parts of this came off kind of
arrogant. I am not an amazing hacker or the best audio engineer - I just
wanted to relate growth in those disciplines to growth in design skills as
well.

~~~
plinkplonk
So how _did_ you develop your ear? Any details appreciated.

~~~
swivelmaster
Hah! I listened to LOTS of music, good and bad. I went to tons of local shows
and tried to figure out why the bands that sucked sucked and why the bands
that rocked rocked, even when the bands that rocked were playing very simple
music. I also did a whole bunch of recording, and spent a lot of time tweaking
settings to try to figure out why my guitars sounded crappy and such.
Eventually I figured out that the solid bands sound 100X better because they
know how to get the right sounds from their instruments... and thus I began
learning about amp manufacturers and popular models (can you tell me what the
differences are between the distorted tones on a Marshall JCM half stack, a
Vox AC30, and a Fender Twin? What about between pinstripe and coated drum
heads? Picked and fingered bass? What's a "scooped" sound?)

And then there's just giving my mixes to people and listening when they tell
me what's wrong.

------
timr
Yes, there's a certain amount of raw artistic talent involved in design, but
you can get a lot of the way with two rules:

1) Be Simple. 2) Be Sparse.

You don't need drop shadows, shiny buttons, gradients, rounded corners,
animation, or complex imagery to make a good site. As any good musician will
tell you, music is about what you do with the space _in between_ the notes;
graphic design is about what you do with the space _around_ the content (and
if your content is good, the less crap you need to put around it!)

If you use a simple layout, a very small palette of 4-8 colors, 1 font, and
only a few font sizes, you'll find that your designs will improve
automatically. If you lack even the basic ability to coordinate colors, use a
tool (<http://www.colorschemer.com/schemes/> is a good source), and never
deviate from the scheme that you choose.

Remember: think Google, not Microsoft.

~~~
pg
_1) Be Simple. 2) Be Sparse._

I agree. Google is a good model. It's clear that even now they don't really
get design. Their rule is just to make everything simple and functional. This
means that even though they never manage to do anything inspired (Google has
never made anything people would compare to the iPod) they at least avoid a
lot of design mistakes. You can probably get 85th percentile design merely by
avoiding mistakes.

~~~
vsingh
I realized that Google didn't really get design when they added dropdown menus
to Google Docs. Even Microsoft has moved past that. One of the things that
impresses me about 280 Slides is the amount of functionality they've been able
to pack in without resorting to a menubar.

------
foobar2k
Check out <http://99designs.com> and <http://www.crowdspring.com> to outsource
your design.

Some people have natural talent with design. If you find you aren't one of
these people, just get someone else to do it. I've had great experience with
crowdspring and it is very good value for money. The best part about these two
sites is, you get to choose the best design and give the designers feedback
for further iterations.

~~~
josefresco
Sites like these are like Elance for programmers. They devalue good design and
force designers to work for very low rates and compete with each other thereby
cannibalizing the industry.

~~~
sanswork
They don't force anyone to work for low rates. They give designers/developers
without the ability to develop business relationships or standard business a
way to find clients. I see a lot of jobs on the programmer sites that end up
going for less than $5 an hour. It doesn't mean I'm not charging a lot more
than that per hour anymore. I can because I've developed relationships with
people who will pay more.

~~~
Kinimat
These kinds of sites are ruining all creative industries.

It's working for spec on the off-chance your designs might get chosen. THe
odds are stacked against you and the competition devalues your work. It's the
type of thing that is historically rampant with IP theft, abuse, underhanded
tactics etc.

Designers should _not_ be working on spec; ever, especially college educated
designers. It's tempting to get these projects under your belt for the
experience and the portfolio but once you go down that path, it can be hard to
raise your rates up to a liveable wage when everyone else is working for free
or cheap.

~~~
sanswork
They aren't ruining creative industries at all.

If you're good and can market yourself you can always find people to pay the
rates you want. If you are missing one of those things you wouldn't be getting
the rates you want anyhow. Your work is worth exactly what someone is willing
to pay for it. If you can't find people to pay what you want then you are
overvaluing your abilities.

~~~
Raphael
The point is that people rely on a living wage, and too much competition
reduces it to an unreasonably low rate for people in more expensive areas.

~~~
briansmith
Expensive cities and design jobs are both luxury goods.

Some day I hope to start up a bunch of huge computer labs throughout SE Asia
and Africa so that kids can come in and do custom programming and graphic
design, undercutting all of us Westerners. I'd rather have disadvantaged
teenagers drawing little icons for $5 a hour than working as hookers to get
$10 a night--even if it means that designers in the US won't be able to afford
to live in downtown S.F., drinking $6 cups of coffee, and buying $5K of
gadgets every year.

------
jwynia
If you're more just trying to make really nice forms for web applications,
there's a nice set of CSS themes from Wufoo _. I've been using them for lots
of my prototypes before we hire someone to do the final design. In the mean
time, all of our demos look nice.

_<http://wufoo.com/gallery/designs/>

------
reazalun
Hopefully this Google's Design Guidelines can help you:
[http://googlesystem.blogspot.com/2008/03/googles-design-
guid...](http://googlesystem.blogspot.com/2008/03/googles-design-
guidelines.html)

------
radu_floricica
If you're in the freelancing business I do have a bit of advice: if you work
with another designer make sure you have a backup. If I had a dollar for every
time a saw a project late/expensive because of the designer... I could eat at
McDonalds a couple of times. Template sites are the best idea for less
pretentious clients, and are much more profitable for you, so try to use them
more often. But you do need a designer to work with for either the odd custom
design or for the miscellaneous: logos, business cards and so on.

~~~
josefresco
If I had a nickel for every time a programmer caused a major delay in a
project (after the design was in place) I could probably buy a McDonalds
franchise.

Elance/Outsource your programming for less pretentious clients, it's more
profitable.

It goes both ways my friend ;)

~~~
radu_floricica
It only goes to show work relationships in general should not be set in stone.
It's the basic rule of fiability... if each has a 40% chance of failing, the
pair has only 35% chance for success. Ergo, prepare for your partner's failure
just as you would for your own, or more.

------
Jasber
One thing I'm doing to keep the cost of a designer low is to have them focus
on things I know I'm not good at.

I can slice the layout in Photoshop, markup the HTML and code the CSS--so I
don't have the designer do any of these things.

I have them focus on things I'm not good at--colors, typography, general look
and feel, etc...

This saves some money and let's me maintain control over the code base (which
I like).

------
Tichy
Designers are relatively cheap, compared to developers. If you can't find a
friend to help you out, pay someone to do the designs for you.

~~~
ocskills
I'm actually a developer and I have to strongly disagree with this comment.
The same gap exists (<http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/HighNotes.html>)
between good designers and mediocre. In my experience, great designers are far
from a commodity. I also agree with the other poster who said "Think Google
not Microsoft". That's great advice - with a little practice even a programmer
can produce decent designs if they keep things simple and don't try to get
fancy.

~~~
josefresco
"with a little practice even a programmer can produce decent designs if they
keep things simple and don't try to get fancy"

Yes given time a designer can program an entire software program by keeping
things simple and not getting fancy. I'm a designer and have programmed a good
deal, however like designs from my programmer, you'd laugh at what I've coded.

~~~
ocskills
Agreed on all sides. The gap between decent and really good designers is
_huge_ and great designers are no more a commodity than great programmers. If
the author can find a great designer to work with I'd strongly recommend he
does. If not, and he's doing it himself, he needs to keep things simple if
he's going to produce passable designs.

------
oneplusone2
I am pretty much the exact opposite. I am a designer, but not really a
programmer. I can program, but it is not pretty and has to be pretty basic. I
am pretty much forced to rely on ExpressionEngine to get things working.

However, I don't care. I focus on what I am good at in order to get even
better. Don't try to diversify. Specialize. There is more money in it.

~~~
josefresco
Wow another designer on HN ... and I thought I was the only one.

~~~
Kinimat
I have a degree in design and half a degree in engineering :)

With respect to the topic.. good design studios get involved in a project from
day one and have a tremendous impact on the outcome of the final project. It's
not simply a "skin" over a technology. It's should be a critical part of your
operation.

I find it bizarre that many people assume anything "artistic" requires innate
talent and you either have it or you don't. Design requires constant practice
and dedication to be good and ten years (or more) of experience to be truly
great, just like any other discipline.

My designs from 15 years ago are laughably bad but now I can whip up some
decent fairly quickly. On the other hand... I haven't programmed anything in
10 years and have a long learning curve ahead of me.

I'd recommend looking for some good designers on one of the freelance sites..
there's no shortage of choice. If you decide to go it alone, or even if you
don't, I recommend picking up the book "Design Elements" by Timothy Samara.
It's the best, most concise, book on the general principles of design I have
yet to find. It will give you a good overview and some talking points with any
designers you hire.

Good luck!

~~~
Kinimat
Ugh.. ignore the typos.. typed too quickly.

------
j1o1h1n
> you can't just learn how to make great designs

I worked with many talented designers in pre-Internet-Crash 1.0 days. They
were very good at telling me where to add some whitespace - almost invisible
tweaks that made great differences.

They all studied at design college. Of course in those days, their training
was in print, and didn't enjoy working with the limitations of the web.

You could do some traditional artistic study?

Of course, if you just want your website to look great - hire someone. An
advantage you have over someone hiring you to do programming work is that you
can look at a piece of artistic design work and make a value judgement about
whether it is any good.

~~~
josefresco
Print designers know nothing of the web, and are a nuisance to good web
designers everywhere. I have clients who routinely consult their "print
designer" who in turn gives them the worst advice known to man.

As a web designer and user interface expert, when a client asks me for a
brochure or business card design I dutifully refer them to a print expert and
don't tell them "yeah I can do that" just because I can.

~~~
gnaritas
Worse, print designers know nothing of the web, and tend to think they know
everything because design is design right! It's a pain to convince them that
different mediums have different idioms and what works in print doesn't work
well on the web.

------
flashgordon
Actualy I think it is a matter of practise. I am a fairly ok coder (django and
python :D), but I am not exactly artistic. But I attribute that to "oh i am a
good coder, so its ok for me to not put in the effort to learn UI and Design
skills" mentality. Note that this is not something I do actively. I do try and
make an effort to read UI books but the effort is no way even close to what I
do trying to tinker with all things coding related. Unfortunately, while there
is an element of genius/talent/"born with it", it is ultimately a matter of
hard work (a saying about perspiration and inspiration by Edison comes to
mind).

------
aaroneous
Everyone has strengths and weaknesses. It's good to identify those areas where
you're deficient, the next step is to find ways to compensate.
Partnering//hiring a designer is a pretty popular solution.

~~~
josefresco
Excellent point, as a designer I work hand-in-hand with a talented programmer
for all my projects. He in turn sends UI work to me because he understand his
limitations.

------
gexla
How many hours do you spend on design? How many hours do you spend on
development? That is your answer, practice makes perfect.

Being artistic is a natural talent to some degree but you don't need to be a
Picasso to create effective web designs. However, you probably don't want to
waste the time to become a good designer when you could be working on skills
which are closer to your core expertise.

------
sosuke
Design is one of my weaker talents. When recently designing my new portfolio
site I made sure to play to my own strengths and made something technically
challenging with an extremely simple design. I won't misrepresent myself as a
designer and I am sending a good signal about the code that strings my site
together. Just play to your personal strengths and you will have a great site.

------
aniketh
why not pick up a readymade template? something from template monster; or
maybe even some free template (oswd.org, freecsstemplates.org)?

~~~
josefresco
Please tell me you didn't just recommend template monster. I can spot a
"template" design 1000 miles away. I'd rather have my programmer hack his own
design than buy a "design in a can"

~~~
jrockway
Buy?

------
kamme
Hey guys, thank you for the massive amount of comments, I am going to look at
most of the options: read the design book, keep in mind the priniples you
mentioned and if that fails I'll look at the designer for hire sites.

Thanks again, I have never gotten so much helpfull feedback!

------
pbnaidu
I like inkscape from inkscape.org better than GIMP and there are lots of
tutorials around that tool.

------
maxklein
Let other people who can design inspire you. Then copy the inspiration into
photoshop and move it around till it looks nice.

------
davidw
Join the club:-)

------
agentbleu
Is a designer really necessary?

I argue here that they are not for the proof of concept stages.

[http://thenextweb.org/2008/05/30/the-power-of-elegance-in-
de...](http://thenextweb.org/2008/05/30/the-power-of-elegance-in-design/)

~~~
josefresco
Your argument is that teams don't need "20 designers" they need 1-2 to
bootstrap the program until is takes off.

That's a big difference from "is a designer really necessary?"

Same argument but for programming; Do you really need a team of 20
programmers? My conclusion from that argument would not be "are programmers
really necessary?" Would you hire a web designer to program your software?

------
STHayden
haha... I have the opposite problem of being a good designer but a crappy
programmer.

