
The Government's $200,000 Useless Android Application - Mizza
http://gun.io/blog/the-governments-200000-useless-android-application/
======
jellicle
Fine. "6 hours maximum", says the author, for an app translated into English
and Spanish that interfaces with a remote database and performs some user-
initiated calculations, and also has a bunch of static pages. Before starting
you must consult with at least a dozen people who know very little about
Android and succinctly describe the capabilities of the smartphone and what
sorts of applications are even possible. Finally you must provide
documentation.

Ready? Go! Keep track of your hours...

I installed the app. It works fine. Responsive, fast, no problems. I have two
minor quibbles with the design, but they are minor. Does what it says on the
box. Not an exciting piece of software, but... Has even one person commenting
on this thread installed it except me? No? Didn't think so. "It's a piece of
crap" says a highly self-interested blogger, and Hacker News jumps on that
like starving dogs on Alpo.

~~~
feralchimp
I was actually just going to mention this. With all of the in-bundle resource
differences required for two iPhone resolutions, different .xibs for iPad,
etc, we're talking about much more than 6 hours worth of work here.

The source code (for iOS, at least) is also pretty clean and decently
commented for what it is.

$96k is still outrageous, but for work-for-hire it's off by a factor of 2-5
rather than a factor of 10.

Nevertheless, it's crap. The quality of the constructed software is irrelevant
because the feature set is a no-op. It's a graphical front end for a NOAA web
service that returns temperature and humidity. If the public isn't living and
breathing the content of that NOAA web service, maybe it's because there's no
graphical tool to access it, but maybe it's because they have 50,000 other
ways to determine temperature and humidity at their current location. Like,
say, existing in a conscious state at their current location.

~~~
betterth
>but maybe it's because they have 50,000 other ways to determine temperature
and humidity at their current location. Like, say, existing in a conscious
state at their current location.

Most of us can say "it's cold" or "it's humid" -- but we rely on more mature
data services so we can know exactly how cold or how humid it might be...

You've essentially just argued that NOAA stat tracking is pointless because
"you can stick your head out of a window".

~~~
feralchimp
>You've essentially just argued that NOAA stat tracking is pointless because
"you can stick your head out of a window".

I've argued that the translation and re-display of these particular NOAA stats
on a smartphone, for the viewer's location, is pointless because I can stick
my head out of a window.

When operating an aircraft, I _love_ NOAA stat tracking. I think NOAA and the
National Weather Service are probably two of the best deals the American
public can ever expect to get for their money.

------
GiraffeNecktie
In the government agency where I work, $200k would actually be considered very
reasonable for a steaming pile of shit. We've paid many times that amount and
sometimes the shit wasn't even lukewarm, let alone steaming. Believe it or
not, we often spend $150 to $200k or more just to make the decision about
whether or not we're going to invest in a particular pile of shit.

~~~
thirsteh
This is double-plus not good.

~~~
spodek
Watch your newspeak, citizen.

You meant doubleplusungood, right?

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newspeak>

~~~
thirsteh
Doubleplussorry!

------
gte910h
The problem with the government trying to do something is that anyone who's
really really qualified will find the paperwork, compliance, and bidding
procedures way too complicated for the sums of money involved.

The Android app cost 106k btw. So looking at this guys hourly rate, it would
take approximately 6 months of 40 hour weeks for him to cost that much to do
the app.

So if he:

Learned out to submit the forms that got him into the bidding

Made changes to his company required to make it seem a valid bid target

Filed the correct forms to put in his bid

Factored in correctly the amount of oversight and travel that would be
required to get even a simple app done according to the whims of the people
hired to get it made

Used server technologies compliant with government desires, including ones he
may never really willingly touch with a 10 foot pole

Then MAYBE, just MAYBE, he'd be able to go as low as say, 60k or so. And
that's for a small indie dev. Now look at a bigger company doing this app (as
the government likes support, unlike a single freelancer can necessarily
provide), and you easily hit the 106k range.

Does it not work well? Sounds like it works like crap. But complicated crap
still can be expensive to make.

~~~
AJ007
If someone is interested in how the government procurement process is gamed,
"The Stoner Arms Dealers: How Two American Kids Became Big-Time Weapons
Traders" in Rolling Stone is a good read -
[http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/the-stoner-arms-
de...](http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/the-stoner-arms-
dealers-20110316)

It sounded to me like the whole business was getting the contract written
correctly. Once the contract was procured, fulfillment it was more of an after
thought.

~~~
gte910h
That is not accurate in my experience. Their contracts were even mentioned to
be in the piece to be for foreigners, so no one cared, etc.

Sponsers care a hell of a lot that things do the right things when it's
important.

------
aresant
Outstanding piece of marketing on Gun.io's part with a clear "here's how my
biz solves this" at the end.

#1 on Hacker News is a feat, but this thing has legs on every political and
general fluff channel - HuffPo, FoxNews, Conservative Radio, CNN, wire
services, etc.

I learned from our own blogging efforts when you have a winner, take it to the
bank.

EG - Hit every PR angle you can think of to get redistribution while you've
got the momentum.

Any PR gurus out there that would comment on the top handful of ways to fan
the flames on PR for a story like this?

I'd love to understand the process when you've got this ripe of content.

~~~
captainaj
Right, was thinking that the writer could file a petition on change.org, great
way to build the buzz (aside from the main purpose)

~~~
gravitronic
The irony would be that whatever legislated change the government would make
to publicly "fix" this problem would in reality just add another step with
another form to the process.

------
DanielBMarkham
This is definitely hacker-bait. Cue up all the folks complaining about
wasteful government, then cue up the hotshot programmer folks who will tell us
they can code this in 2 hours while drunk, then cue up the FOIA folks, then
the folks who feel any critique at all of government is indicative of right-
wing extremism, and so on.

I remember when the IRS spent 4 Billion on a new computer system _and had
nothing to show for it_. The joke I used for a week was "Hell, they could have
paid me $2 Billion and still not had anything to show for it -- and saved half
their money."

The problem those of us with lots of internal government experience is that
most "normal" folks have literally no idea how much waste there is. Yes, it's
like a big university. Yes, it's like BigCorp. But no, it's so far beyond
those concepts that if that's the only frame of reference you have, you've
missed it.

I love my country and love paying taxes for it to do useful things. But there
simply is no system in place for shutting things down. It just keeps growing.
In the private sector the measurement is "does it do something that folks will
pay us for?" because if it doesn't, folks eventually stop paying, and the
company goes away (although it might take decades). In the public sector the
metric is "does it make a politician look bad?"

There's a reason Congress delegates all these powers to all these agencies.
It's the same reason we have so many "Tsars". Nobody is directly accountable.
It's all set up so that if there is a problem, some poor schmuck gets hauled
before an investigative committee to get the riot act read to them. That way
the guys who are supposed to be really responsible -- the Congressmen -- get
to play the part of the person looking to fix things. Politics. It's a
beautiful thing.

So at the end of the day I'm not really sure this is newsworthy. I could tell
similar stories involving tens of millions of dollars, and I bet we could come
up with a list of hundreds of these things. Anybody remember the FBI case file
system? This is just way small peanuts. Perhaps the "Android app" part of it
is enough to be newsworthy, but in my mind that's a benefit: today there are a
lot of people pleading to move away from COBOL systems in some government
agency -- and losing. I feel really sorry for those guys.

~~~
wisty
Also, this $200k app is probably an example of good government spending.
Arguably, it's UK style Fabian socialism, in which government spending is
making it impossible for better private solutions to flourish. Libertarian
fanboys will whinge no matter what the government does, unless it does
nothing.

200k is a small amount (for any big org), and it's actually going to something
public facing, unlike 90% of government work which is simply faceless men
putting obtuse reports in each other's pigeon holes. Do we really want to
attack one of the few times the government actually tries to make their work
relevant to the public?

You could equally argue that the 1% is wasting billions on stupid sock puppet
ads for online pet shops, photo sharing apps, and AOL. Or on stock options for
chefs and masseuses. Or on million dollar teams that do nothing more than re-
invent wheels, badly.

It's arguable that the government should be doing this at all. But I certainly
believe that if government should be doing anything, they should be making
their work available to the general public. I don't think they got screwed -
200k for an app is not a giant rip-off. They might have been able to do it
cheaper, but it's not totally out of line with the sort of crap industry does.

------
jsight
I'm curious if this really surprises anyone here that the entire process for
the government purchasing three mobile applications (Android, iOS, and BB) was
~200k. This seems pretty ordinary/normal to me.

~~~
AJ007
In the governments defense, I think big corporations routinely overpay for web
development and marketing expenses.

Aanecdotally, a girl I know who works for a pharmaceutical company said they
spent $60,000 on a three page web site.

Then I sit in Starbucks and listen to some freelancer get reamed for charging
$1,000 to build and manage some guy's website. One would think that the price
discrepancies for the same product among different buyers would not be so
extreme in a capitalist marketplace.

~~~
gcv
Neither the government nor large corporations qualify as the kind of free and
ideal market you're referring to.

~~~
AJ007
How does the term "capitalist marketplace" infer "free and ideal market?"

The purchase and sale of cocaine occurs in a market where virtually all
sellers are capitalists. It is neither free nor ideal.

------
quanticle
I have worked for one of these "green energy"/"smart grid" companies. My
conclusion about that company (after about six months of working there) was
that its core competency wasn't writing software. The software was a shoddy
pile of half-working crap written in a proprietary programming language made
by another company that didn't exist any more. No, their core competency was
1) navigating government bureaucracy and 2) filling out government forms.
These two competencies ensured that there was never a need to actually produce
good software because few competitors would have the time and contacts to even
bid on the contract, much less secure it and write good software.

------
rgarcia
The code was actually released November 2nd:
[http://www.muckrock.com/foi/view/united-states-of-
america/so...](http://www.muckrock.com/foi/view/united-states-of-
america/source-code-of-heat-safety-tool/766/)

~~~
Jacquass12321
Good find! I need go find the dailywtf submission form. I've only glanced at
the code but my favorite part so far is using integers 0/1 as booleans and
putting "myValid1 == 1" everywhere they want to check if it is true. Didn't
they list in the billing that they internationalized this? it's full of
hardcoded english strings and nothing is done with the resource files.

------
pavlov
In the European Union, governments are legally required to open public works
and supplying contracts to competition through an open tendering process. I'm
surprised that this doesn't happen in the US.

There's a fair bit of criticism levelled against the EU tendering processes,
though. Many feel that the process emphasizes price at the expense of quality,
resulting in a "race to the bottom" as another poster mentioned.

Public contracts currently open in the EU can be found on a website:
<http://ted.europa.eu>

Looking quickly through the site, the contracts seem to have a huge range --
everything from large architectural projects to supplying a small Swedish town
with photocopier paper...

~~~
mattmanser
I was surprised by this and decided to check it out, and it looks like they're
not really.

 _the implementation of EU government law by national governments is far from
uniform and sometimes weak – in 2002, for instance, only 16% of governmental
calls to tender were published – government procurement has been called "the
weakest link in the common market".[2]_

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Government_procurement_in_the_E...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Government_procurement_in_the_European_Union)

Also check the minimum amounts this applies to, this probably wouldn't have
been necessary to put through the process anyway.

~~~
pavlov
Indeed, the minimum amounts (known in EU jargon as _de minimis_ tresholds) are
higher than I had assumed.

As the Wikipedia article states, these _de minimis_ tresholds "provide an
incentive for authorities to divide contracts into separate lots", which is
thought to be the reason for the small amount of public contracts that go
through the tendering process.

I think individual member governments are free to set stricter limits, though.
At least in Finland, some public contracts as small as 15,000 € are required
to be openly tendered. (Last year there was a well-published scandal when a
high-level Helsinki city administrator ordered some 70k€ worth of office
furniture without official tendering.)

------
jwallaceparker
I am not the least surprised.

My girlfriend works for the Health Department in my home state. They paid two
consultants $100,000 to convert paper documents to digital form. The contract
lasted one week.

The consultants literally put documents into a scanner and converted them to
PDF. At the end of the week they took their money and left, leaving the bulk
of the documents unscanned.

An intern could've done this work for $10 an hour. And he/she would've
actually finished the job.

------
feralchimp
These guys are clearly elite:

<code> \- (float)getHeatIndex:(float)temp:(float)humidity {

    
    
        NSLog(@"[getHeatIndex] temp: %f, humidity: %f", temp, humidity);
        
        float hIndex = 
        -42.379 + 2.04901523 * temp 
        + 10.14333127 * humidity 
        - 0.22475541 * temp * humidity 
        - 6.83783 * pow(10, -3) * temp * temp 
        - 5.481717 * pow(10, -2) * humidity * humidity 
        + 1.22874 * pow(10, -3) * temp * temp * humidity 
        + 8.5282 * pow(10, -4) * temp * humidity * humidity 
        - 1.99 * pow(10, -6) * temp * temp * humidity * humidity;
        
        //hIndex = round(hIndex);
        NSLog(@"-Heat Index: %f", hIndex);
        return hIndex;

} </code>

------
matdwyer
I've dealt with some Government agencies before in a few different capacities,
and they actually WANT To spend their money. The actual cost doesn't really
matter, as they are trying to get as close to their budgets as possible, as to
not have them decreased the next year.

This is especially true in the last 30 or 60 days - to the point where you
invoice and are paid before the job is done just because it "has" to be in the
billing period.

------
mcknz
Is this really much different than outsourced projects for huge corporations?
Seems like large organizations get charged a premium for the same amount of
work.

Government can hire technical people who can do the work in house, or who are
qualified to evaluate the work. But because of the pressure to keep government
small, qualified tech people go to the private sector and overcharge the
government. Seems like one can't win here.

~~~
karmajunkie
No, its not.

Its also worth pointing out that sometimes, just sometimes, it works out the
other way. I was the lead on a team that took $150k in funding and produced an
open-source implementation of some CDC specifications
(<https://github.com/talho/openphin>), and became the first software in the
country to be certified with it. We developed it in about 12 weeks, and the
first milestone certifications were actually complete-able (meaning we had the
features, though the paperwork took longer) within 2 weeks. We were up against
companies used in other states like Northrup and SAIC that literally spent
millions on the implementations (and don't even get me started on how much
those same companies spent coming up with the standards in the first place,
which is a whole 'nother problem) and beat them handily at their own game.

We did use private contractors as additional assets starting out and while
they were more expensive than hiring additional developers, they had two great
attributes: temporary, and good at what they did. Its worth it to pay for
competence, every single time. And when its a one-time expense for a project,
its much, much easier to deal with than something that incurs year-over-year
expenditures.

------
cdk
The $200k price tag is unsurprising if you factor in the cost of non-coding
work like requirements gathering, travels, expenses, benefits, etc. This seems
like a simple app but when you have a design by committee, approvals, etc it
can be quite manpower intensive.

The OSHA document is not rendering for me so I can't tell if there's a cost
breakdown.

~~~
fennecfoxen
The sad thing is the amount of non-coding work that exists.

But that's government. Still want to move more things under their purview?

------
canterburry
I think the author is also forgetting that any programming work done for the
government/state is always contractually bound by a multi-year code guarantee.
This means that if any bugs are uncovered within that time period, the vendor
must at no cost to the government fix them. That leads to drawn out
negotiations over if something is a bug or enhancement. These code guarantees
typically range between 2 - 5 years during which you can't charge a dime for
anything related to fixing actual bugs.

------
Omnipresent
I've been on a govt project for the last four years and can't begin to tell
you how much money is wasted on IT projects during the entire year. Hearing in
the News that the administration is trying to save money by cutting on office
supplies makes me laugh! The "Supercommittee" could have at least put a dent
in the savings by literally just reviewing the IT projects that the Govt
contracts out and the process they follow to manage those contracts.

In the agency I work in, there are 9 IT systems that go to production twice in
a year. For the entire year the total development time provided (when
environments are open for programmers to develop) is about 2 months. Yet the
govt is paying the developers and complete IT teams for the entire year.

It really is ridiculous. Big boys like BAH, SAIC, CSC, CACI etc. etc. are
milking the system and taking advantage of incompetent and gullible govt
employees.

------
nextparadigms
The title should be edited. It's 200,000 for all versions Android, iPhone and
Blackberry. The Android one was 100,000.

------
yahelc
There's probably a good startup to be had in managing the government
procurement bidding process for small developers, and thus lowering the
barrier to bidding, and reducing the likelihood that contracts will go to
folks like this.

------
kevinalexbrown
Whoever runs ERG is getting very rich by making crap that doesn't even work.
It's like a negative programmer. Except we're all paying for it.

And this is the 'obvious' case, in which it's easy to tell it's crap. What
about those times when I'm relying on the experts at these agencies to find
solutions to difficult problems without a clear indicator of success? I'm not
anti-government by any stretch, but man. The legalese sounded so good:
"critical, real-time hot weather information"...

Sure, I know that's BS, but what about when I'm not qualified to judge it
(i.e. military decisions in Afghanistan based on intel that I'm not privy to).

------
niels_olson
I would like to point out that SAIC more or less stole VisTA source code from
the VA under FOIA and then sold the same code to the Department of Defense for
billions. We still can't get the source code they've modified. Why is it that
if a government employee writes the software, it's FOIA'ble, but if the
government pays someone else for it, it's not? The government is just stuck
with some crappy binaries?

~~~
simc
SAIC also screwed up the FBI's Virtual Case File, NSA's Trailblazer, New
York's CityTime (with a extra helping of fraud thrown in). It would be
interesting to hear of any software project they did do which was not a multi
hundred million dollar software engineering disaster.

------
philipashlock
It's also worth noting that Congress is threatening to cut the budget for the
project that tracks overspending on IT projects - the IT Dashboard. While the
IT Dashboard tool was properly open sourced and the codebase is doing well out
in the wild, the continued use of it for the Federal Government isn't totally
free, but the very small budget required to keep something like this running
can prevent spending hundreds of millions of dollars on excessive IT projects.

For more info on budget cuts that could effect projects like the IT Dashboard,
see: [http://sunlightfoundation.com/blog/2011/11/16/crunch-time-
in...](http://sunlightfoundation.com/blog/2011/11/16/crunch-time-in-senate-
for-flagship-transparency-programs/)

For information on the open source IT Dashboard project, see:
<http://civiccommons.org/2011/05/it-dashboard-six-weeks-in/>

------
sumukh1
I've looked at the source code for the application (which is available), the
claim that this can be done in 6 hours is absolutely right.

Another thing. It seems like the company outsourced the development as well to
these guys pixelbitcreative. The entire application contains ~1400 lines of
code. I wonder how the money got eaten as we went up the chart.

------
danso
Brilliant article. Couple of key takeaways:

1\. "The shocking part about this isn't even that it happened, but rather that
it is incredibly routine. This is just one FOIA request to one tiny department
for one tiny, single use application that will perhaps be used by, at most,
five hundred people.. and it cost as much as a house. You can imagine what the
waste must be like in other government run sectors..."

2\. "The other issue is the source code. In my opinion, since we taxpayers
paid for the development of this piece of shit, we should at least be able to
modify and redistrubute the code. Apparently though, the Government doesn't
have to supply any information which it considers to be a "trade secret," and
OSHA has determined that this crappy source code is somehow a privileged
secret. "

I wonder if the denial of showing source code was because they really DO think
it is a trade secret. Or they are too embarrassed to show it?

~~~
jellicle
> The shocking part about this isn't even that it happened, but rather that it
> is incredibly routine. This is just one FOIA request to one tiny department
> for one tiny, single use application

You realize that these two sentences oppose each other, right?

~~~
danso
You have to click-through to read the entire paragraph (sorry, wanted to abide
by fair use). The sentiment is that if this kind of low-standards wasteful
spending happened in one small department, then imagine what happens at the
Dept of Defense.

------
cleaver
In my experience (over a decade consulting to government in Canada), not
charging enough can sometime put you at a competitive disadvantage. The
purchasing decisions are often made by someone who doesn't understand the
technology and their prime concern is risk. They don't want to be "the guy who
chose the vendor who screwed up". In government, as often as not, you may not
get promoted for doing something great so much as by not doing anything bad.

A lot of cost can be added through management of non-technical aspects. The
wording may have to go through rounds of approval, goals and features may
shift, etc. The cost of writing endless detailed RFP's and the long sales
cycles increase the cost.

That said, there are also a lot of "consultants" who really are just crap. It
made me embarrassed to be in the same business and that is part of the reason
I don't work for government clients anymore.

------
philipashlock
We hope the traditional procurement story will be improved with the help of
Civic Commons, an organization which is very much aimed at leveling the
playing field for government software. We want to make it easier for more
developers and smart spry development shops to work on software projects for
government. We want to give open source the same exposure as proprietary
software and generally facilitate software co-creation and reuse across
government to make sure things don't get paid for more times than they need
to. You can learn more about us at <http://civiccommons.org>

The Civic Commons marketplace is currently still in closed beta, but it will
be opening up very soon. Please sign-up: <http://marketplace.civiccommon..>.

------
suprgeek
Please get this off the front page:

1) $200K is for Android +iOS + BB apps

2) Source code is available

3) App works as advertised and does not Crash (installed)

4) Selling to big Gov. is expensive (not 10X but surely 2-3X)

5) The poster wildly underestimates the total project cost and puts in some
arbitrary coding estimate

Linkbaity title + Misleading facts + Moral outrage at big Gov != HNews
Frontpage

------
hat1
Amidst all of the government-bashing comments, I note that no one has remarked
on a few things:

    
    
      * we don't have any actual evidence to support the author's claim that this sort of bloat is routine  (remember, plural of anecdote isn't data)
    
      * we don't know what kind of wasted money gets tossed around in major corporations (assumptions about how corporations must be lean do not constitute actual evidence)
    
      * we don't even have a way to find out what sort of bloat and waste takes place in corporate america - the government at least lets us find out
    

so it maybe doesn't make a lot of sense, in an observable-evidence sort of
way, to make with the government-bashing..

------
kennethologist
Thank you for the info on MuckRock! Never knew about the site. hopefully one
day my country will pass the freedom of information act and we the citizenry
can request this kind of information.

------
Omnipresent
Check out this RFI from IRS for JAVA Open Source. It makes no sense why they
would want a team to consolidate all the open source libraries they want
rather than just going out and getting those libraries.

[https://www.fbo.gov/index?s=opportunity&mode=form&id...](https://www.fbo.gov/index?s=opportunity&mode=form&id=a479da77b849e4946272d9bf0aa1bfb3&tab=core&_cview=0)

------
nazgulnarsil
I strongly recommend Yes, Minister.
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yes_Minister>

------
jiggy2011
I agree with his point regarding source code. Often I have interacted with web
applications supplied by parts of the UK Civil service and they have obvious
bugs that I often feel _should_ be fairly easy fixes.

I often feel that I would happily fix them for free as a public service in a
fairly short time period, but no doubt it takes months and lots of $ before
they are addressed.

------
absconditus
Years ago my employer was given a much larger grant from NASA to throw a few
web pages on a Windows tablet computer and use Dragon Naturally Speaking to
navigate between them. We received this grant because of political
connections.

------
davedx
The problems with opening up big government contracts to multiple bidders is
there is then a race to the bottom. However, outsourcing it one component at a
time is definitely an interesting idea. Deliverables!

~~~
mquander
Isn't a race to the bottom on _price_ the desired outcome?

The presence of a race to the bottom on _functionality_ is independent of
whether or not the contract is open. If they don't have anyone competent who
is vetting the proposals or evaluating the progress and deliverables, then
they will wind up with shit no matter how they arrange the contracting. But if
it's open to normal software shops, then at least they probably won't wind up
with $200,000 shit.

~~~
gte910h
>Isn't a race to the bottom on price the desired outcome

Cheap yet sufficient is the desired outcome in government work.

I'm guessing 'sufficient' was defined too broadly or too specifically, and
therefore was not correctly tested for on delivery.

------
kaze
Apart from bureaucratic tangles, process overheads and bidding issues, is it
possible the artists' fees for illustrations and health related research and
verification played a role in the bloat up?

------
Jacquass12321
I can't help but get warm fuzzy job security feelings when I see something
like this, someone actually paid money for that. Well specifically I paid
money for that, warm fuzzies taken care of.

------
ullrich
There's a Thumbs.db file in the iOS Sources... _scared_

------
5teev
So it's been more than 6 hours since this was posted. There must be a few
clones of the Android version by now. Links, anyone?

~~~
5teev
Six hours later: yeah, didn't think so.

------
adnam
It is the green-eyed monster which doth mock

The meat it feeds on; that cuckold lives in bliss

------
taylorbuley
Great FOIA work. Putting all the re-blogging "journalists" to shame.

------
apage8
I guess none of us should be surprised by this...But the real question is how
do I get a government contract? What a joke...

------
101001010111
"broken proprietary software which the public isn't even allowed to fix."

This is recurring theme that traces back at least as early as the 1990's.

What's different now is that there is historical evidence that open source
projects can produce higher quality software than proprietary ones.

~~~
rbarooah
Really? It's clear that open source projects can produce excellent quality
software. It's also clear that proprietary software can be excellent quality.
Both can also produce garbage.

If you have evidence that open source can produce generally better quality
software, or is consistently better for the same kinds of problem, I would
like to see it presented.

~~~
101001010111
Thanks for the reply.

Did you notice my choice to use the words "can produce" (as in "sometimes")
not the word "produce" (as in "always")? I would never make the later
statement: open projects always produce higher quality software than
proprietary ones. That's not my belief.

As such, you are asking me in your last sentence if I have evidence to support
a statement I would never make. Of course, the answer is no, because I would
not bother to look for it.

But I would be interested to know why you would like to see such evidence if
it exists? I could take a guess as to the reason(s) but I do not want to make
assumptions.

~~~
rbarooah
I did notice.

I don't think you're claiming that open source software is always better.

I do think you're claiming that overall open source software is systematically
better in some way than proprietary software, obviously not in every instance
and subject to noise and variance. Feel free to correct me if you not making
any such claim.

I'm asking for evidence because you stated catgorically that evidence exists
but I have personally never come across it.

What is the evidence you referred to in your original comment?

~~~
101001010111
I'm not making any such claim. But I'm curious why you want to see me as
making that claim. Why would you be interested in evidence that open source
projects produce generally/consistently better software than proprietary
projects for the same sort of problems?

As for evidence that open source projects can (sometimes) produce "high
quality" software, TCP/IP is the first example that comes to mind.

Once upon a time, there was a government software project, a government
contractor and a grad student...

Assuming the usual kernels, we're all using that code, or derivatives of it,
right now.

~~~
rbarooah
It should be obvious why I think you're making such a claim - you said:
"What's different now is that there is historical evidence that open source
projects can produce higher quality software than proprietary ones."

By using the word 'higher' you clearly indicate that you think that there is a
quality advantage to open source software.

If you don't think there's an advantage to open source development, then I
don't see what meaning you were trying to convey in your original comment.

It seems bizarre that you don't know why I'd be interested in evidence that
open source projects have systematically better quality. It would be a major
result with implications in project planning, system architecture,
organizational philosophy etc. To date, I have never seen such evidence - only
reasoned opinion which is valuable but inconclusive.

If you had evidence, I'm sure you'd have produced it by now.

It's obvious (as I stated in my first reply) that open source can sometimes
produce high quality software. Another great example would be webkit.

I thought you knew of some evidence that might show _why_ governments should
choose open source, other than opinion and dogma.

I'm disappointed that it doesn't exist because it would be powerfully
persuasive in furthering the cause of open source.

~~~
1010101111001
You have made assumptions about what I meant with my original comment. Your
assumptions are incorrect. Why not just ask me: "What do you mean by that?"

Here's what I meant. I believe there were naysayers in the 1980's and early
1990's (and maybe they are still around today) who argued open source would
never work. I believe history has proved them wrong.

As you pointed out, open source, like proprietary, can produce good results or
bad results. It can produce "high quality"[1] results. It can even produce
"higher quality" results.

I believe the reasons why open source is as good a choice as proprietary are
very simple and quite obvious: If the user of the software can read the code,
then 1\. it is easier to evaluate the author's skill and programming
sensibilities and 2\. it is easier to fix errors and make improvements
(without having to pester a proprietary software vendor).

You were also hoping that I would make an argument that the results obtained
are somehow related to whether a project is open or closed. As I said, I won't
make that argument. And as such I won't look for evidence to support it.
That's because I do not believe it.

You have set yourself up for disappointment. I played no part in it.

If you want to know what I believe in terms of how "high quality" or "higher
quality" software is achieved, just ask me and I will tell you[2].

But please do not make assumptions about what I think.

All the best.

1\. Quality is a subjective determination.

2\. I should warn you it is nothing revolutionary. I will only state the
obvious.

~~~
rbarooah
So you don't think open source can produce higher quality software, and you
don't have any evidence for anything.

Fair enough.

[edit - changed "produces" to "can produce"] - doesn't change my point.

~~~
1010101111001
No. I explained what I meant and you still don't seem to get it. Read what I
said about the naysayers again.

You asked for the historical evidence I mentioned and I gave you the example
of the TCP/IP stack we're all using.

I shouldn't have to say it but "open source" does not produce software,
developers produce software. They might be working on a closed project or they
might be working on an open one. The open/closed status of the project does
not determine the quality of the software. The developers do.

You appear to be making the same mistake as the naysayers did when they said
open source would never work. They believed the closed/open status of a
project was somehow tied to quality. They were wrong. (Developers working on)
open source projects can produce high quality software just as well as
(developers working on) proprietary ones can. You cited the example of KDE's
webkit to indicate you agreed.

If this is still somehow confusing to you, then I'm afraid I cannot help you.

~~~
rbarooah
Earlier you said: "What's different now is that there is historical evidence
that open source projects can produce higher quality software than proprietary
ones."

Now you say: "The open/closed status of the project does not determine the
quality of the software. The developers do."

So mentioning open source was irrelevant then?

~~~
1010101111001
One more try to get through to you then I'm giving up.

Here goes.

What are the arguments _against_ open source?

What if someone says, "Open source means poor quality"?

You can look back on the last 15 years, choose some examples of open source
software and rebut that with evidence.

I would make this rebuttal.

You apparently would as well.

Now, what are the arguments _for_ open source?

You could say "Open source produces high quality software." Note: Not "can
produce" but "produces". As in always.

You could say that.

I wouldn't.

I wouldn't make that argument.

I would argue open source make sense because the source can be reviewed and
corrected if necessary, without being dependent on a proprietary vendor.

Hope this is clear.

------
npaquin
Govt = epic fail.

------
mkramlich
This kind of nauseus bloat is a big factor why I'm trying to stay away from
iOS and Android development. So many projects out there could be much more
quickly, cheaply and freedomly (my word) done as a simple web app or even as
pure static HTML website in some cases. So much foolishness, hype and
hipstering going on.

~~~
absconditus
You are staying away from iOS and Android because the government overpays for
low quality software?

------
jxcole
And people wonder why the US has a deficit problem.

------
ck2
What's really sad is the money went to a foreign company (aeat.co.uk)

It didn't even stay in the American economy which should be a minimum
requirement these days if a US solution is available.

------
maxharris
How does this further the proper mission of the government, which is to
protect individual rights?

I can't fathom a way that this could have anything to do with the government
doing the one essential job it actually has to do! It's not just that it's a
badly made app. I think the entire fact that the government making apps like
this is absurd.

Given what the government actually is (the only agency with the legitimate,
legal monopoly on the use of _force_ ), it is no wonder that it fails so
miserably at doing stuff like this.

~~~
dangrossman
This is an app specifically designed to help protect your life (one of those
rights) from unsafe employment. I get the dig you're making but this seems a
weak target for it...

~~~
javert
The government's duty to protect your life does not extend beyond protecting
it from the use of force by other people.

If you choose to work in a place, that's your choice. Even if you fail to make
sure it's safe before you work there, or decide to work there despite the
risk.

Anyway, even if OSHA were legitime, this app is not effective at achieving
anything, even if executed well.

~~~
pndmnm
Your definition of "government's duty" is not universally agreed upon, and
it's intellectually dishonest to predicate an argument on the presumption that
it is.

~~~
javert
I didn't present any argument. I just made a statement, without presenting
(here) any supporting evidence.

Yes, I realize most people won't agree with the statement.

My hope is that by providing it as food for thought, some people may thinking
about it and decide that they agree, or may at least be more open to the idea
when it comes up in some other context.

Isn't it intellectually dishonest for you to call someone intellectually
dishonest, when you don't know all the relevant causal factors? (Answer: no,
it's just a mistake.)

