
Launch HN: Sudden Coffee (YC W17) – Instant coffee that doesn't suck - freese
Hey HN! I’m Kalle, one of the founders at Sudden Coffee (<a href="https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.suddencoffee.com" rel="nofollow">https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.suddencoffee.com</a>). We make instant coffee and sell it through our website as a subscription.<p>I started working on this almost two years ago after my cafe business failed. I was frustrated by how unscalable and inconsistent selling good coffee is.<p>In 2015 I placed 9th in the World Barista Champs in Seattle. On the flight back to Helsinki I was desperate for caffeine and ordered a coffee which was horrendous. I started wondering what would be a better way than Aeropress + hand grinder combo to have great coffee on the go.<p>Instant coffee is liquid coffee that’s been dehydrated. It’s normally made with the worst beans that are roasted really dark and extracted up to 6 times at temperatures up to 180C and 15 bar pressure. As a result, they can reach 60% extraction yield. Next, the liquid is boiled down and finally dehydrated by spray drying it with hot air. This process results in the gnarly bitter, woody, rubbery instant we all know.<p>We start with good beans: currently from a co-op called Biftu Gudina in Ethiopia, roasted by 49th Parallel in Vancouver, BC. In the beginning we brewed the coffee by hand as espresso — I would literally spend 12 hours per day pulling shots. At one point we had a full-time person doing this.<p>Eventually, we developed our own fully-closed centrifugal brewing system that doesn’t allow for any aroma to escape. We extract the coffee at low temperatures (85-90C) to 21-23% extraction yield. As a result, we only get the good stuff — sweetness, fruitiness, acidity — and none of the bad stuff.<p>Also, we’ve developed our own freeze-drying technique that’s kind of equivalent to a server farm. Instead of having one enormous machine we have a bunch of small freeze dryers. This allows for greater control and shorter iteration cycle.<p>This might be too long already so I&#x27;ll stop here. Looking forward to discussing the coffee business and great coffee in the thread!
======
alaskamiller
I work in the coffee industry and saw Sudden pop up last year so was
interested in the technique and hacked it out.

Freeze dried coffee is already what Folgers does and sell you. This is the
more artisanal version of that since the big brands have big factories that
can pump out plenty of instant coffee grounds.

So this is a ramped up volume play on existing techniques perfected by the
doomsday preppers. Youtube search for freeze dried coffee and you'll plenty of
people explaining how to do it.

The freeze drying machines sell for $600 to $1000 from a variety of vendors. I
think I figured out which one Sudden is using, it's the low end consumer
version from Salt Lake City. They just have 20 of these in a SF warehouse
somewhere.

From there it's just a method of scaling expensive capital costs, labor
intensive processes, and maximizing the calculation of yield, and marketing
enough to convince people that $2.50 for freeze dried coffee in a tube is a
good deal.

That only works when relative to the crazy world of craft coffee people
charging $5 or $7 for a pour over with the Keurig pods at $1.50 anchoring the
bottom and buying a big can of coffee to make your own at $1 a carafe.

~~~
uptownfunk
Downvote me to hell, but I think people drink too much coffee (and caffeinated
drinks), it's just not necessary and is an addictive substance. I think it's a
toxic substance honestly, tires the adrenals and heart out. Anyone else on
here who abstains from caffeine?

~~~
freese
I think you're making a great point - coffee is the legal drug at the moment.
Personally, I drink coffee for the flavor, not for the caffeine. I'm a big fan
of high-quality decaf coffee and it's something we're looking to do with
Sudden.

~~~
aedron
I think you would have a shot at a solid niche with the decaf angle. Think
about this: At practically every workplace you can get real coffee, which will
probably always beat freeze-dried stuff. But if you want decaf you are SOL.

I am currently forced to drink Nestlé Gold Decaf and it is just barely
tolerable. I don't know how your product compares but personally I would
spring for anything better in a heartbeat, price be damned.

~~~
freese
This is really great to hear. We've had a good amount of demand for decaf
option and are working on it. Email me and I'll keep you in the loop

------
huhtenberg
Wasn't a problem with "bad" instant coffee largely solved by Starbucks VIA,
which too utilizes a novel tech that produces very decent results? Even the
mega snobs of /r/coffee were largely OK with it came out few years ago.

Also, re: this -

    
    
        Instant coffee is liquid coffee that’s been dehydrated.
        It’s normally made with the worst beans ... Next, the
        liquid is boiled down and finally dehydrated by spray 
        drying it with hot air.
    

From what I remember this is how Nestle was making its first version of
instant coffee back in 1930s. It then switched to the freeze-drying method in
mid 60s, which is still used to make Nescafe Gold.

It's very cool to see that you made your own brewing/dehydration tech, but
twisting facts and bad-mouthing your competitors is not the right way to go
about promoting yourselves.

~~~
ryanSrich
Every flight I've been on with Starbucks VIA has been absolute trash. Airplane
coffee quite literally tastes like it was made with toilet water. That's
honestly the only way I can describe it. I'm bearish on any improvements
because I'm convinced the problem is the water they use.

~~~
gingerbread-man
You're spot on re: the water quality. An investigation at DFW a few years ago
found hazardous levels of e.coli in the potable water tanks used to refill
aircraft.

I wonder why the airlines aren't doing anything about this. I'm not a frequent
first-class passenger, but if I were, high-quality coffee would be a big deal
for me.

~~~
objclxt
> I'm not a frequent first-class passenger, but if I were, high-quality coffee
> would be a big deal for me.

Many transatlantic and transpacific flights now have a proper grind-on-demand
coffee machine (allowing for lattes, cappuccinos, etc) in business / first
class. Doesn't necessarily solve the water problem, although they can fill
them up from bottled (I don't know if they actually do).

~~~
freese
Definitely looking to do plane coffee at some point but the water quality
remains biggest issue.

------
ccameron
I'd like to echo a huge need for this in backpacking and travel areas. For
instance I went on a cruise recently and could not get a decent cup of coffee
for a week. I would have loved this option for travel.

If I saw this at a premium price and it was marketed and positioned properly
as a much better alternative than Starbucks Via at REI or some other outdoor
retailer I'd definitely buy it. I wouldn't subscribe for it simply because it
doesn't meet my daily needs. I already have a nice electric grinder and do
either pour over or Aeropress for coffee. Maybe I'm not your target market,
but I think I could be if I can simply order it for travel and backpacking or
on the go use.

~~~
freese
Thanks for the comment! I hear ya. We're considering retail as an option in
the future. Right now the subscription simply is the business model that makes
sense for us - our current margins are too slim for retailers.

~~~
ccameron
That makes sense. If you offered a batch where I could just buy a bunch and it
stays good for a long while then I would definitely buy some in that model.
That way I can simply stock some away and pull it out for trips or when I
don't feel like making it / in a hurry etc.

If you want to hit the backpacker market get some freebies out to blogs like
Andrew Skurka, Section Hiker, Adventure Alan, Gear Junkie, etc. I don't know
that the market is big enough to target, but I suspect with how profitable REI
is there may be something to it.

~~~
tedmiston
I'm not sure what the shelf life is currently… maybe a couple months?

Personally I subscribe for a similar use case and then just defer a week or
two or skip on the months where I haven't used it all yet. Their subscription
management options are very fine grained which is nice. I've been really happy
with it so far.

------
sargun
So, I am curious -- A while ago I experimented with making a better instant
coffee. I came up with a few different solutions. I'm curious as to whether
you've looked into them:

1) Pouring a ristretto into liquid nitrogen. At reconstitution time, put into
boiling water and stir. Issue: Cold coffee, potential colloid separation --
solutions might include some kind of stabilizer

2) Taking a ristretto and removing water content to concentrate it, and then
pull a vacuum on it and package it. Said package can then be opened and
dissolved in boiling water. Issue: Complexity. Removing the water can be
complicated, pulling a vacuum on it, and then heating it while at vacuum is
hard.

3) Coffee puck: Take traditional coffee, and put it into a permeable membrane
that when exposed to water above a certain temperature is permeable. When that
temperature drops, it stops being permeable. Problem: Said polymers were hard
to find.

~~~
freese
1) You need to keep it frozen, right? That makes it a lot more complicated +
probably issues with the colloids (we experienced that at one point)

2) The bigger challenge is actually brewing large amount of
ristrettos/espressos, not necessarily concentrating it.

3) just sounds way too complicated to me to rival/equal soluble coffee

Edit: haven't really looked into any of these as a feasible option for us.

~~~
sargun
This might be a trade secret, but how are you keeping the colloid solution
coherent?

I'm kinda surprised you say that brewing the ristrettos are the hard parts. I
know that centrifugal brewing is all the rage these days (as siphon, pour-
over, and espresso were before), but it seems like automating espresso is a
solved problem. Are there no industrial-scale burr grinders?

I think the biggest problem would be tamping and getting that to be
consistent.

Is there anyone who needs industrial scale espresso?

~~~
zloof
The part re: colloids is a trade secret at this point, but definitely a real
challenge.

As far as we could find, there is no common solution for industrial scale
espresso. If someone has one, please post it here. This was a personal
obsession of mine last spring - "How does this not exist?!?"

Kalle is the coffee expert, but as the 'non-coffee guy', I have no idea why
this wouldn't exist - I would have thought someone out there would need it?

~~~
bowmessage
industrial scale espresso: what about those automatic espresso machines you
can sometimes find in office buildings? they pull single, double, or triple
espresso shots from a touch screen interface. Can do lattes etc. too, but
assuming you wouldn't need that part.

~~~
sargun
They're called super automatics. Generally, they're really expensive, and they
make coffee very slowly (.5ml/second if you're lucky). They also tend to be
built by companies who don't readily provide documentation on how to fix /
modify them.

------
_eht
OK, I'll try it. I've been interested in an instant/easy cup of coffee for a
long time and yet to find anything worthwhile.

From a tech standpoint the order process is a bit lacking and confusing. I'm
prompted to create an account after ordering, but then emailed an activation
for an account that was automatically created.

I'm unsure if my month starts now, and I can expect a shipment soon, or if I
have to wait till 4/22, which is what your site says my next shipment will
process.

You linked to a 'super secret' area
([https://www.suddencoffee.com/?trial=true](https://www.suddencoffee.com/?trial=true))
where it says your trial will convert to an eight cup subscription for
$24/month, but I signed up on the normal page for $22/month.

I'm looking forward to trying the coffee, as well as having a more intuitive
and less confusing site to manage my subscription. How is that for a
coffee/tech snob? :D

~~~
freese
Thanks for pointing all these out!

Agree that the order process is a bit lacking. We just hired our first
engineer to work on it. We're currently using Shopify + a bunch of apps since
our focus has been the hardware (brewing + coffee). Also - just had a meeting
yesterday to figure out how to make the site more clear.

Your month starts now. We'll ship your coffee tomorrow and the subscription
will renew on 4/22.

The pricing for the trial is a bug. We lowered the price recently and clearly
forgot to update the description - I just fixed it.

Really appreciate the feedback!

------
ryduh
Hi Kalle, I love my daily pour over, so I might not be your target market, but
I'd definitely be interested in purchasing a few coffees without a
subscription. Have you thought about offering that?

~~~
zloof
Co-founder of Sudden here. This question comes up a lot. We have tried
offering one-time purchases and it didn't work very well/ wasn't sustainable
for us. 3 reasons we believe in a subscription model:

1) A big reason we started this company together was our shared belief in
making customers feel good through hospitality. It's more than just the coffee
itself. We want to build a better experience - if you are a Sudden subscriber,
the experience should evolve over time, you'll learn more about coffee, try
new things, have fun with it. To us, this wasn't about making something to
have once a year on a road trip, but a way that we could connect with
customers and create a larger community. A subscription is the best way for us
to build a lasting experience at our current size.

2) For a lot of folks out there, it is super easy & convenient and they
wouldn't have it any other way. They like that Sudden Coffee just arrives and
they don't have to think about it. It's something they can add into their
life.

3) Subscriptions mean we can offer the same product at a much cheaper price.
We can spend a lot less time & money making ads or sending emails to remind
you to buy again. This is the reality of what most CPG companies do - think
about how often you see a toothpaste ad for a toothpaste you already own, even
if you love it. We pass the savings directly on to customers. We ran the
numbers, to offer the same coffee without a subscription, we'd have to charge
$4-5/cup.

To clarify 2 things: A) You definitely can still be in the target market for
us. Our most popular subscription is 8/cups a month. This is meant to ADD-TO
not REPLACE your existing coffee ritual. We find Sudden works best as your
'second-cup' of the day (at least as you try it out). We have plenty of
customers who make a daily pour over and then use Sudden in the afternoon.

B) We recognize that giving people a way to TRY before subscribing is a big
gap in our service and we are actively experimenting with the best ways to do
that. It may come in the form of referrals from other customers or special
sales. We just brought on someone last week to think through the experience
and were brainstorming about it this morning.

~~~
mark-r
A subscription also doesn't allow for any fluctuation in demand. If you're
having a bunch of people over and want to offer them great coffee, how do you
do that without depriving yourself for the rest of the month?

~~~
freese
Good point. It's a work in progress, and we're exploring what's the best
model. You can always order me by emailing us. We just saw that having a one-
off model completely cannibalized our new subscriptions.

Email me if you want to order a one-off and I can hook you up ;)

~~~
wcarron
Wouldn't that indicate that you are missing out on a significant portion of
your market? Maybe I'm misunderstanding what 'completely cannibalized'means
but, personally, I'd probably follow the money; because that's where your
market seems to be. Subscriptions can be good, especially if your product is
sticky, but why ignore the demand for single orders?

Perhaps having packs of 10/25/50 is a viable road. After all, what's so
different about sending out kits monthly to a subscriber vs sending one out to
someone who purchased a month supply as a test?

------
aquilaFiera
I've been a subscriber for Sudden Coffee since Christmas and I love it. The
coffee is definitely as good the corner cafe here in San Francisco. I love it
because it takes me 1/10 the time to make a great cup of coffee in the
morning. I just upped my subscription so I can get more every month. On top of
that the customer service has been top notch so far with Kalle himself
answering my questions.

My initial worry was that it was too pricey but they released this blog post
which I found enlightening: [https://blog.suddencoffee.com/transparent-
pricing-what-goes-...](https://blog.suddencoffee.com/transparent-pricing-what-
goes-into-every-cup-of-sudden-coffee-6ed4a76b91c2#.cjwjqe2d1)

~~~
dragonwriter
> The coffee is definitely as good the corner cafe here in San Francisco.

I've only tried a few since I don't even live in SF, but IME "as good [as] the
corner cafe here in San Francisco" could be anywhere from horrible to
excellent, depending on the particular corner cafe.

~~~
aquilaFiera
Okay, fair. I'm from Salt Lake City where the coffee is decidedly not as good.
What I meant to say it's as good to me as Philz.

~~~
freese
We did a blind taste test at YC - 72% of the founders in our batch prefer
Sudden over fresh Philz ;)

------
tyre
Maybe I'm biased, as a fellow YC founder, but I don't understand the
negativity.

1) Sudden is the first company that I've actually considered buying instant
coffee from. In the US, there's a pretty strong stigma against it, so that's
not an easy task.

2) $3 per cup isn't a lot of money, roughly equivalent to a cup of coffee
elsewhere in SF. Especially if I don't have to stop anywhere and can just put
it in a water bottle. Actually this would be great for camping.

3) I have no idea how they are making it, but having read numerous writings by
the founders, this sounds a lot harder than I imagined.

4) Having spoken to many investors, fellow founders, and others, this is
really compelling to a lot of people. Again, I live in the bubble of Silicon
Valley, but "better, faster coffee" doesn't feel like an elitist product.

I'm all for Sudden Coffee being successful.

~~~
bigtunacan
There is definitely some SV bubble around this. I can buy a local cafe pour
over cup for less than this product.

I can buy my own beans and heat the kettle and pour that over in less than 5
minutes.

If I'm desperate and in hurry then I can make a cup of Keurig for a fraction
of the cost.

~~~
freese
I don't in any way disagree with you. If you're happy with those options then
that's great - as you said, you'll save money. However, we're seeing that
Sudden is a really compelling product to a lot of people. Most of our
subscribers are outside of any larger cities and we ship to 42 states.

Sudden is not for everyone and we're totally ok with that. As YC says "it's
better to have 100 people that really love you than 1M that just kind of like
you" ;)

------
DiabloD3
I don't understand the point of this product.

You're obviously targeting people who already like coffee, such as myself: I
already buy beans, grind them myself, and manage the process using an
Aeropress, and I'm hardly some coffee hipster because I use goddamned Eight
O'Clock Columbian Peaks.

Yet, you are trying to sell me instant coffee, which I automatically am wary
of because instant coffee is the shittiest coffee you can drink... yet you
have no way of convincing me otherwise. Subscriptions are only useful if you
can convert the customer, "the first hit is always free."

Also, your entire website is a hastily developed trainwreck: "Copyright $copy;
2017."... Copyright who? The email harvesting call to action in tan needs to
follow the rule of thirds to stand out, your contact page needs serious loving
(seriously, Google on how to make these), and your front page hero image is
goddamned tiny and isn't even full width of the page, and the Sudden/Instant
comparison block below it is formatted horridly.

 _Please_ hire a web designer, you need someone with experience on how to do
this right.

~~~
dsco
The design is fine. Certain things can be tweaked but great web design isn't
really going to drive the product. The taste, market-fit and brand probably
have more impact.

I'd suggest offering samples for a small price. Convincing customers about the
taste with only a website can be an uphill battle unless they've been
recommended the product, or actually tasted it. Perhaps free taste samples in
stores can be a sales channel to the web site.

~~~
freese
Thanks for the suggestion! We're exploring what we can do here. Ideally we'd
love to make sampling really easy & inexpensive but with our current costs
it's simply not feasible right now.

~~~
swamp40
There must be _some_ price where you would break even shipping out a single
tube.

You could charge that amount for a sample, even if _you_ consider it
overpriced.

You might be surprised at how many people want to try it, but don't want to
commit to a subscription right away.

------
mgberlin
I buy instant coffee 3 or 4 times a year when I go backpacking. Because it's
that rare, I'm not going to subscribe, but if I saw this for sale at [Big Box
Outdoor Store] when I was buying supplies, I'd probably pay a premium for it.

~~~
freese
Great, thanks for the feedback!

------
mslev
Honestly I'm mostly interested in the centrifugal brewing system. 85-90C
doesn't seem very low to me, maybe just below my brewing range across methods
(192-204). Sounds like your current method would be similar to an Aeropress.

You said you'd spent 12 hours a day pulling shots- were you using espresso for
the coffee? Is this freeze dried espresso, with more water added to it (like
an Americano)?

I'd truly love to know more about your brew technique and process.

~~~
freese
In the beginning we were brewing the coffee as espresso since that was an easy
way to get a higher strength (≈10% TDS) coffee brewed in low volumes - kind of
took the YC mantra "do things that don't scale" to heart. So yes, until Aug
2016 it was basically dehydrated espresso.

Our current setup is quite different and in terms of flavor profile and brew
dynamics does represent AeroPress. I'd love to go in more detail but can't
disclose more.

------
beatboxrevival
I'd like to try it for backpacking, but not interested in a subscription. Give
an option to purchase a sample pack.

~~~
RandomOpinion
Amen to this. I would be much more inclined to try Sudden Coffee out if there
were an option for a one-time purchase, especially if registration were not
required (I really don't want to deal with yet another password).

As a side question: what's the shelf life of Sudden?

~~~
freese
Thanks for the feedback - duly noted.

The shelf life is around 4-6 months - we recently started to flush the tubes
with nitrogen so as long as you keep the in cool, dry and dark place they'll
last for a while.

~~~
csours
+1 to the above. The first thing I looked for on your site was how to try it.
I don't want a sub before I try it.

Has anyone 'hacked' your coffee - I'm thinking of the Aeropress community and
the nifty things they've done.

Have you demoed this anywhere in person?

For instance, in Austin people stand in line early in the morning for BBQ, and
I'm sure you would make a huge impression if you gave out free samples a few
times.

------
jongold
Super impressed with this - one of my coworkers has been giving out samples of
it, it's absolutely perfect for mornings when I'm in too much of a rush to
deal with grinding / brewing, and also for camping trips.

~~~
freese
Awesome - really happy to hear that! I use it every morning at home and it's
soooo easy.

------
mrkurt
I _actually_ subscribed, 8 cups for ~$19 seems pretty decent to me. Keep
selling subscriptions ... it's a better business.

How do your yields compare to cold brew?

~~~
subpixel
Keep selling subscriptions...to corporate clients, to whom you can give volume
discounts.

You can sell a shit-ton of this (if it's great) at half the price. But almost
$2.50 per cup is more than Nespresso, and the customers willing to spend that
month-in and month-out are already going to have Nespresso, etc.

~~~
freese
We're making ≈35% margins by selling it as a subscription. More about the
price here: [https://blog.suddencoffee.com/transparent-pricing-what-
goes-...](https://blog.suddencoffee.com/transparent-pricing-what-goes-into-
every-cup-of-sudden-coffee-6ed4a76b91c2#.s9xy53vkz)

------
elnygren
Hi Kalle, the best coffee I ever had was an espresso macchiato at Freese
Coffee in Freesenkatu (Helsinki, Finland - and yeah, that guy's lastname and
company's name matches the street name due to some history). I used to live
couple blocks away. Awesome stuff :)

Please, don't offer these only with subscription. Let me do one-off purchases
and you have me as a customer.

~~~
freese
Hahaa! Really happy to hear that :) Thanks for the feedback re: one-off.

------
Borkdude
> On the flight back to Helsinki I was desperate for caffeine and ordered a
> coffee which was horrendous.

This is what I hate about caffeine, the dependency and withdrawals you get
when you're not taking your dose. I love coffee and black tea, but the
dependency and habituation to the effect of it is what makes me wean off from
time to time.

------
tekklloneer
I get the desire for recurring revenue, but I really want to buy and try once;
pledging easy cancellation near your call to action would really massage a lot
of the complaints in here.

~~~
freese
Totally get it - thanks for the feedback. You can cancel anytime simply by
emailing support@suddencoffee

~~~
apsdsm
Oooh... Ouch... Cancelation by emailing somebody is really not cool... That
should be the sort of thing that can be done automatically with the hit of a
switch. If you could get your programmer to set that up it would be a good
step.

Also, no shipping to Japan?

I'd like to try this out but without shipping to my region I suppose that's me
out.

------
erikb
I want to challenge your idea with the question of whether it's really needed.
True, having good instant coffee would be an improvement. But I guess we have
just accepted that it is as it is. If you want good coffee you sit down, take
your time, it's also a culture a thing. If you just need something warm to
drink at the bus stop or a caffein shock before a meeting, badly tasting
coffee is "good enough" for most people. So, who'll buy "suddencoffee"? (and
is that really a good name for it? sudden doesn't feel like high quality)

PS: Btw I really think if this thing has a market you are probably the guy to
make a product for it. I can believe that. Great. But if there's no market,
better focus on other stuff, e.g., how to get the premium locations were
people come to get great coffee.

------
Grue3
I already prefer instant coffee (sublimated) to the usual coffee machine-
grinded bean coffee (it always tastes off for some reason). Instant with milk
always tastes perfect.

------
ed
I had a batch of this and can confirm – not only did it taste like pour-over,
it tasted like one of the best pour-overs I'd ever had. I was shocked.

It just happens to come in powder form. (I'm your typical SF tech coffee geek,
like a lot of us I'll seek out the good stuff.)

Sell on Amazon already! :)

~~~
freese
Thanks Ed! We're considering/exploring Amazon.

------
kup0
At the current pricing, there is no way I would purchase. Flavor isn't worth
THAT much to me.

At least for me personally, mediocre but extremely inexpensive coffee > "great
tasting" $2-3/cup coffee. Not to mention, it being "instant" to me, means even
at this price it will still be inferior to high-end bulk coffee.

I already thought Keurig pods were expensive (and they don't make great coffee
either so I avoid them), this makes those look reasonable.

Maybe I'm just not your target market. The product itself sounds like it may
be great, just IMO not worth the cost, and I have no idea what your target
market would be, but it seems it would be an extremely small subset of coffee
drinkers (I could be wrong)

------
_vertigo
Have you considered letting the coffee speak for itself and offering a
paid/free one cup sample to get people interested? I'm not going to take a $19
leap on coffee I don't know if I'll like, no matter what people say or how
good your marketing is. The fact that it's currently offered as a subscription
makes it even less likely that I'll bite.

However, if I tasted your coffee and found it reasonable, I would probably
sign up, even for a subscription. If you had an option to just buy a $3 sample
cup I would, and if what people say about your coffee is true, I'd probably
turn into a customer. I think a lot of people would be in the same boat, as
well. Just something to consider.

~~~
freese
I totally get that we have a high barrier of entry. We tried lowering it last
year when we offered one-off purchases. However, that just doesn't work with
our current user acquisition model. Even if we get a lower number of
subscribers their LTV is much, much higher.

~~~
jacquesm
It's not about LTV of your customers for you. This could easily be interpreted
as 'when given a chance to try the product without a subscription a large
percentage of the trials led nowhere'. That you get a larger LTV out of an
automatic conversion is a given, it would be _extremely_ surprising if that
were not the case.

I would suggest that you try to get to the point where your LTV of customers
trying one paid/free sample and _then_ converting into regular paying
customers or subscribers is proof that the product works rather than to get
into the bin where the unsubscribe barrier is what keeps you going.

~~~
zloof
Short answer - we're starting to experiment with trial options. This is a link
to a 2-cup trial that converts to a sub:
[https://www.suddencoffee.com/?trial=true](https://www.suddencoffee.com/?trial=true)

Longer answer - sort of but not that simple in our current state. Even if you
absolutely love a product, often times you don't buy again. Many reasons for
this - it's a pain to checkout again, you don't have your credit card on you,
you forgot about it, you're just too busy with other stuff.

If we had an Uber-like app - one click to order, saves your credit card, sends
you push notifications to remind you - it would be a lot more feasible to send
you a single cup of coffee and make it really really easy for you to buy
again. Unfortunately, it's hard for us to do that right now and we end up
losing a lot of people who truly did love the product.

Before LTV or any of that stuff - the big question is if we call up our
subscribers, are they happy? We hear again and again "Yes, I love the product,
I love that it shows up, it tastes great and saves me time". We would not be
building a subscription service if that were not the case.

However, we are absolutely testing different trial options to get at what
you're talking about.

~~~
chatmasta
This is a product where clearly some kind of free sample is necessary, because
when you make claims like you are about your coffee, people want to try it
before subscribing to it. If you're giving free samples, you need to collect
credit card information to avoid fraud anyway, so you may as well add the
customer to a subscription after 30 days unless they opt out. The rebill model
is profitable for a reason.

I would go so far as to say you should create an affiliate program. I know the
"rebill" affiliate marketing model was quite scummy (acai berry, teeth
whitening back in 2008-2011), but it worked very well and doesn't have to be
so scummy. The problem then was that the major products were hiding the terms
of the rebill and made it impossible to cancel without multiple angry calls to
callcenters. But it doesn't have to be this way. Lots of reputable products
have rebill models, but they are clear about the terms when you enter your
credit card info, and you can opt-out of auto-renew with a button click at any
time in the next 30 days. If you can do this you can capture the advantages of
the rebill model without high chargeback rates and reputation damage. The
rebill model will increase customer LTV and enable you to pay competitive
commissions to affiliates who drive signups.

Once you know the percentage of customers who convert from free trial, you can
start measuring the average length of subscription to calculate LTV (if churn
is negative the average LTV will increase over time). Then you can use that
LTV to determine maximum customer acquisition cost (CAC). With that, you can
launch an affiliate program (by registering as an advertiser on the few big
affiliate networks) and pay a commission as some percentage of customer LTV
(hopefully around $20 if you want to compete with other affiliate offers). As
LTV increases you can raise commission for your best affiliates.

This is the kind of product that affiliates can sell very efficiently. You
should let them do your marketing for you, and use the funding you're raising
to bankroll your affiliate program.

------
yomly
This is super interesting!

I had always assumed coffee was made via liophilization at scale, any insight
on why it's not?

On the subject of extraction, how are you measuring yield? What are the main
differences in the 40% coffee yield you're leaving on the table?

~~~
freese
In normal conditions you can only extract up to ≈30% of the coffee beans mass,
ie. no matter how fine you grind and long you brew you'll only get 30%. The
rest are insoluble solids: cellulose so basically wood.

When the big boys brew the coffee in really high temp and pressure (165-190C,
15 bars) the structure of the bean changes and previously insoluble parts of
the hemicellulose become soluble. This means you get a higher yield but what
you get are nasty, woody, heavy bitter compounds.

Here's a diagram explaining more:
[https://goo.gl/dJTsxM](https://goo.gl/dJTsxM)

~~~
yomly
Ah ok, with you now! Are you guys mainly a hardware company then? Anything
cool going on software-wise for you guys?

~~~
freese
Yeah, mainly hardware now. We just hired our first dev (and are still looking
for a VP Eng!) and have some software stuff coming up. First we're working on
making the ordering process better and building tools for our subscribers.

Here's the job posting in case you're interested:
[https://jobs.lever.co/suddencoffee](https://jobs.lever.co/suddencoffee)

~~~
yomly
Ok cool, thanks for sharing!

A big part of artisanal coffee is that it uses high quality water (usually
magnesium enriched after filtering via reverse osmosis iirc) - is there
anything you can do to control for this / shitty water at the customer side?

If you're brewing with Mg-water then, most of it will be left behind when
freeze drying, of course, but water used to rehydrate the coffee will be a big
one...

------
mythrwy
Instant coffee can actually be good (although right now almost all of it is
downright horrendous).

(sorry, have to mention competing product). Nescafe Tasters Choice in the
single packs I find very acceptable and often prefer to brewed coffee.

So I'm pretty sure good instant coffee can be done. Be very interested to see
what can _really_ be done with an even higher quality product as this outfit
appears to be doing.

Not crazy about subscription though. Understand it makes business sense from
companies perspective but it doesn't from mine. Maybe this will work out
nicely to where other distribution models make sense. Best of luck! I'm
rooting for you :)

~~~
freese
Thanks for the feedback! We chose the subscription model partly because that
allows us to use

1) really high-quality coffee 2) not cut corners in the process 3) Sell it at
the lowest possible price to you guys

------
rfrey
I would keep a stash of this for when I get up early and want a cup while I
set down to work. I can't run my grinder or espresso machine because it wakes
up the kids.

I do drink normal instant coffee in those desperate times, but I would very
much enjoy a high quality alternative.

Not interested in a subscription though, it's bad enough that every piece of
software I use has moved to a monthly model without it taking over my physical
world too. You do your thing, but I'll be checking back periodically to see if
you've started selling individual boxes.

------
pfooti
Like other people, I'm not precisely the target market. I brew my own pourover
with beans I get from my local roaster (hooray Andytown!) and admit that part
of my love of the whole thing is for the ritual of grinding, weighing and so
on.

That said, I appreciate good-tasting coffee, enjoy trying new things, and am
intrigued. I could see uses for this, and it would make an interesting gift.
I'm way more likely to buy a one-off than subscribe. I understand wanting to
have consistent month-over-month predictions, but there we are.

~~~
freese
Thanks for the feedback! I love Andytown - have you been to the new shop yet?
I live in TL and wish it was closer :(

~~~
pfooti
Haven't been down to taraval yet - I live just a couple blocks from the lawton
shop. Maybe tomorrow- I'm out of amaro gayo, so I could check out the new
location.

~~~
freese
Really like the new one. Had a shot of the Gayo espresso and it was great.

------
comments_db
Michael: What do you think of when you hear the name, "Sudden Coffee"?

George Michael: Coffee dressing, I think. But for some reason I don't want to
drink it.

Jokes aside, best wishes. Got a trial subscription for $?

~~~
freese
Yup - here:
[https://www.suddencoffee.com/?trial=true](https://www.suddencoffee.com/?trial=true)

------
Exuma
I just wanted to comment that I LOVE your marketing site. Extremely easy on
the eyes, clear, good calls to action. I don't give that compliment easily
either, it really is great, succinct, clean. That's my biggest problem with
most sites is they're ridiculous and not built for actual sales. Great work

PS. I just ordered some. Now if only blue bottle coffee would do this :| I
think their coffee is god like. we shal try yours now

~~~
freese
Thanks! We're considering partnerships with different roasters and maybe Blue
Bottle could be one of them.

------
costcopizza
As a regular instant drinker-- I wish you luck.

My go to instant is Cafe Bustelo, cheap, woody, strong and 17¢ a cup when it's
on sale.

At your price, Sudden occupies an interesting niche, but I think it will do
fine given how massive the coffee market is!

Nothing beats instant for convenience, it's a lot easier to find a hot water
than a coffee machine. And slips in your pocket like grinders and a bag o'
beans doesn't.

------
tamal
I've switched almost exclusively to drinking Mount Hagen organic Fair Trade
instant coffee. It's very, very good at a decent price.

~~~
freese
As a barista, the most important thing to me is that you're happy with
whatever your drinking :)

------
0x6c6f6c
Very interesting product. I'm glad to see an instant that's dedicated to
quality. (Edit: Found a bit on your page on the tubes not being
biodegradeable: "we simply aren’t big enough to get a packaging company to
make us biodegradable alternatives", hopefully this is addressed later.)

I do have a question to do with your Transparent Pricing page, where the
following is stated:

> It costs us $2.34 to make each cup.

followed by

> A general rule of thumb for most packaged goods is that you must mark up the
> product by 50% to cover your expenses marketing and selling the product.
> Luckily we don’t follow the rules. If we did, we’d have to charge $4.68 a
> cup!

Marking up 50% sounds like you should charge an extra 50% of the cost of the
product, but that statement uses an extra 100%. I'm not sure if it's wording
or phrasing but that sounds like bolstering an exaggerated markup price to
increase the perceived value of your actual price. Any clarification on this?

------
apapli
For some Australian context, being in Melbourne, a place full of coffee lovers
(and something we jokingly say our city is better at than Sydney) I can't say
I see a market for nice freeze dried coffee.

I'd almost go so far as saying it's become a very established cultural past
time to go out and buy a fresh coffee from a local cafe - even when there may
be Nespresso on offer in the office for free. I don't see how this product
would make it here - the taste of the coffee is simply one (very important)
part of the coffee _experience_.

Where I do see a market however is outdoor activity stores; camping,
caravanning, fishing, boating etc. Sell them in large boxes so we can take
them away for trips.

I know it's not a "monthly" transaction then, but I fail to see how that model
will work here. Perhaps some of our other states such as Queensland, NT or WA
where it's a bit harder to consistently find a good coffee somewhere nearby.

~~~
apsdsm
That's not a joke. Melbourne coffee is definitely better than Sydney coffee.

------
NamTaf
You're targetting espresso over drip. This is good in my books, but I don't
know how the US oddity about drip vs espresso will affect your market. Europe
and Australia/NZ will likely pose different marketing requirements.

For EU/AU, it seems to me like you want to be competing with the Nespresso
market and leveraging the fact that you can produce a similar 'pod' quality
(or better) without the machine - basically a convenience approach, perhaps
with some price influence. You'll struggle to compete with superior flavour
since we understand decent espresso. There's a reason Starbucks has nearly
completely collapsed in Australia and it's largely thanks to Italian migrants
in the 60s, and enough of Europe knows about Italy that they have a clue about
coffee. The secondary advantage is that in AU at least (maybe also EU? my
experience of travel there isn't broad enough), a good cafe-made espresso is
quite expensive (AUD$5) so you have profit margins on your side too.

For the US, you can't really compete on price and people are more happy to
drink rubbish coffee like badly made drip and Starbucks. To this end, in my
mind you will need to convince them that the superior flavour is worth it when
it is not prohibited by superior expense or effort (ie: going out to a
specialist cafe). The evidence is in this thread where people balk at the idea
of a $3 'instant' coffee. This is a distinctly different marketing ploy to the
above, but I think a one-size-fits-all won't work for you.

I don't really have a lot to add, but that's my gut feel on how you need to go
about pitching this. Simply saying 'we can do instant coffee that doesn't
suck!' to me doesn't quite capture the subtlties of the problem you're
actually solving for consumers, as it doesn't place it in the broader context
of how/where/why they consume coffee.

Good luck!

------
jlarocco
I've recently cut down to one or two cups a day, and I'm not super picky, so
I'm not the target market here, but I'll give my two cents anyway in case it
helps.

Number one, $19 for 8 cups of instant coffee seems really expensive. I can get
a really good basic coffee around here (Boulder, CO) for between $1.50 and $3,
depending on size and quality. If the instant costs almost as much, I might as
well just walk across the street.

Second, a subscription model seems strange for instant coffee. It's something
I'll use when I don't want to make regular coffee, but also can't run across
the street to buy one. I'm not in that position often, and I'm not even a
coffee snob.

Just a random thought, but have you considered a tiered approach? Sell the
first extraction at a higher cost, but also have a cheaper product line that
does the extraction process two or three times to increase the yield?

~~~
freese
Thanks for the feedback! The price is that high because of the quality of
coffee and process we use. My co-founder Josh wrote a blog post about it here:
[https://goo.gl/mYuxkt](https://goo.gl/mYuxkt)

Re: extraction - We've thought of that. With our current equipment it's not
possible. I think the more realistic way would be to extract the coffee once
and sell the spent grounds to another company for further extraction.

~~~
hellothree23
I'd plus one the price too...its laughably expensive. plus the packaging is
extraordinarily wasteful. I'd say the process needs major work to reduce the
price point and rethink out the packaging. I actually drink instant when I'm
camping and would love to try it but I would consider this product super niche
because it's honestly not much more work to just do a pour over of real coffee
(for less money).

------
bambax
Not a connoisseur by any means but a drinker of expressos.

Where I can I drink Nespresso, meaning I have machines at home, at work, in
summer homes usually, etc. Many hotels also have a Nespresso machine in the
room nowadays.

In rental homes, and esp. when you go skiing and the apartments you find
yourself in are very small, there sometimes isn't any Nespresso machine. There
I usually buy the likes of these:

[https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0052OOLZY](https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0052OOLZY)

and while it's nowhere near "good", it's "good enough" to get one started in
the morning.

So, what's the market for Sudden? Apparently it's only available via
subscription, so the casual user isn't included. Are you claiming to be better
than Nespresso? That would be interesting -- hard to believe at first, but
exciting if true.

------
qume
There is a three michilen star chef in Milan who uses instant coffee in his
signature dish. Send him a sample!

I found someones version of the recipe:

[https://forums.egullet.org/topic/112265-carlos-craccos-
basma...](https://forums.egullet.org/topic/112265-carlos-craccos-basmati-
risotto/)

------
vit05
So, I drank instant coffee in morning and immediately recalled the headline I
read last night here in HN "Instant coffee that doesn't suck". Unfortunately,
I'm not in the US to order, but when I opened your website, I did not find
your package beautiful. It did not seduce me, it did not seem to be a premium
product.

It seems to me that one of the biggest potential marketing strategies you
could have is when someone takes one from the bag in a public space, like an
office, and another will ask: What is it?

But, at least for me, the only thing I would think would be that this is some
kind of medication or a cigar, and I would remember the Seifield episode about
Pez.

Have you thought about changing the package to something that gives a better
experience and seems more premium?

------
grogenaut
While I've had fun going down the freeze dried prepper hole a few times for
trying to make gluten free camping food... If you're considering doing this
yourself, just buy a good super automatic coffee machine. Such as a Jura Ena.
Good ones can be had on craigslist. They're prosumer type machines so you can
fix them as well. They make amazing coffee, so good you'll burn yourself out
on it if you're not careful. They cost about $350 used and $1k new. Both
prices are totally worth it, esp when compared to trashing a kuerig machine
every few years and the prices you're paying for k cups. And you get fresh.

That is for home consumption. Travel? this might be cool. My camping gear has
a aeropress in it.

------
jenkstom
The wife and I are coffee nuts. To some extent, anyway. We also like to go
"camping" in an RV. I used to do french press, but the ground beans would get
old too quickly and I don't have much interest in a grinder inside a tiny
space. So we're using plain-old instant coffee. It's better than nothing, but
that's about it.

I've been thinking about cold brewed coffee, but that's a completely different
taste. Not bad, but very different and not really what we're looking for.

All that said... I'd love some "not horrible" instant coffee for this
situation. Also to keep in my desk drawer for when we run out of k-cups. Or
even to replace them if it's good enough.

~~~
_puk
There seems to have been (in the U.K. at least) a recent drive towards
'wholebean instant'.

This mixes your traditional freeze dried instant coffee with some very finely
ground beans, which does make for a much better cup of instant.

Give it a try if you come across it, it may fit that niche.

------
bgun
I'd love to try this, but minimum $19/mo subscription as the only "Buy Now"
option?

~~~
hablahaha
I'm with you. I'd only want this sporadically, like when I'm camping and
traveling or to give as gifts. I don't need it on a monthly basis and I feel
conflicted about having to sign up only to cancel (and how easy is that?)
within a month.

~~~
donw
Same here.

From where I sit, Starbucks Via Instant is the competition. It's a notch above
the urns of Folgers Freeze-Dried in the grocery store, but like all things
Starbucks, still too bitter to really enjoy on its own.

Okay, so I'm not a coffee snob. I'll brew at home in the morning with water at
the right temperature, but I'll use pre-ground beans from a vacuum pack. Sure,
freshly roasted tastes way better, but as long as I can avoid the bitterness
from over-extraction, I'm generally happy with what ends up in my mug.

Because it doesn't need sugar.

That was a revelation to me: that properly brewed coffee _does_ taste pretty
damn good on its own, maybe with a bit of milk to smooth out the rough edges.

But the point is, I have no shortage of coffee options at home: aeropress,
coffee press, pour-over, good old drip machine. And when I travel, I would
struggle mightily to care less about my coffee.

That all said, I would spend $20 for a sample pack to try while backpacking --
especially if it's truly epic coffee. Bringing milk along on the trail is...
difficult at best, and it would be a nice little luxury to start the day with
a cup of something genuinely tasty.

But starting off with a subscription, for a product I've never sampled?
Unlikely.

Maybe I'm not the target market, and I could be drastically underestimating
the number of coffee snobs in the world, but I suspect that this company
struggle with the current offering.

~~~
freese
Really appreciate the thoughtful feedback - thanks!

~~~
donw
Good luck!

------
astrange
> We start with good beans: currently from a co-op called Biftu Gudina in
> Ethiopia, roasted by 49th Parallel in Vancouver, BC.

Can someone explain how cities like SF and Vancouver, where nobody can afford
to live, can sustain indie coffee shops? I have never understood this.

~~~
freese
Good questions! Most people working in these cafes can't afford to live in the
city - most baristas in SF seem to live in the East Bay. A lot of people are
still able and willing to pay $3-4 for a cup of coffee so instead of going to
Starbucks people choose to buy better coffee in smaller shops?

------
toss1941
Does anyone know how this compares to Starbucks Via?

~~~
zloof
Co-founder here - it's miles better than Via. Sometimes we include a packet of
Via in our shipment so you can do a taste comparison (thinking about making
this standard). You'll definitely notice the difference side by side.

~~~
abeyer
That's a fun marketing idea, though maybe not necessary for the people who are
already dedicated enough to have signed up for a subscription.

~~~
freese
True - good point.

------
losteverything
First. Good luck

I'm all for trying new coffee. So far nothing has been worth the difference in
the price which is why I still but store brand. (Bounty towels ARE worth the
difference in price, e.g.)

Will you sell creamers and sugar and stirrers and cups?

I'm not sure what your product does - do I still have to heat up the water? I
would love your product to be alka-selzer like in that I drop it into my cold
cup of water and I get a hot cup of good tasting coffee. No need to heat up
the water

------
msencenb
My two cents from a sustainability perspective.

My girlfriend and I would never consider something like this due to the high
volume of plastic involved. Can you make the containers compostable?

~~~
zloof
Working on it. We do individual servings because they preserve freshness -
that's the only reason we do it. It's hard for us to do compostable since we
are still very small compared to your average consumer good, but we are 100%
committed to doing it when we are big enough. We even have 2 sustainability
advisors involved with the company.

~~~
mellamoyo
Cool. I'm not the one who originally posted the question but had the same one
upon checking out the starting page. Great idea, something I would be
interested in signing up for, but too much plastic at this point.

~~~
freese
Totally hear that. The tubes are recyclable and we are testing a programme
where folks can send the back to us for re-use.

~~~
drstewart
+1 for this. The amount of waste in the current model is unfortunately a non-
starter for me or my girlfriend.

~~~
freese
Gotcha!

------
projektir
I'd be interested in this, but it's considerably more expensive than a large
cup of pretty awesome coffee I can get at the local cafe on the way to work...

------
akandiah
I would love to try this, but having the monthly subscription as the only
option is off-putting. You should at least offer an option to 'buy' a trial
pack.

~~~
freese
We have a trial option available here: 2 cups for $6:
[https://www.suddencoffee.com/?trial=true](https://www.suddencoffee.com/?trial=true)

------
jgalt212
This sounds very interesting, but why did you choose YC? The organization
seems to be suffering from serious style drift lately (I know this is
"diversification" by design). That being said, YC has no demonstrated
historical core competency in physical consumer foods or goods.

In short, there had to be a better org to be a better initial investor/growth
partner for a food company than YC.

------
theveloped
Love the positive approach to bringing good coffee to places where people
would often settle for less, be it due to time, noise or weight constraints.
Any chance you guys are looking for a mechanical engineer to scale up
production?

------
paulcole
Why no one-off purchase option?

~~~
freese
Email me and I'll see what we can do ;)

------
togasystems
While travelling through Thailand, I discovered that the country thrives on
terrible instant Nescafe. Open to international expansion?

~~~
freese
We're currently fully focused on the US market. International expansion is
definitely in the plans but not for this year. By far the biggest growth for
instant coffee is in China.

------
miraj
Kind of curious why you guys chosen 49th Parallel, when there are myriad other
roasters in USA itself. I mean its great you picked 49th; I lived in Vancouver
for many years and am a fan of them(+Lucky's Doughnuts!).

But wondering if you are based in SF, & assuming your initial target market is
USA, why go with a cross border hassle?

------
mrbill
Any chance of offering a "test drive" purchase, so I can check out the product
before committing to a subscription?

~~~
zloof
If you go to this secret link you can get a 2-cup trial that auto-converts to
a subscription in 21 days.

[https://www.suddencoffee.com/?trial=true](https://www.suddencoffee.com/?trial=true)

We are experimenting with ways to let people try it first - so more solutions
are coming!

------
stjarnljuset
I'm actually a daily instant coffee drinker so I'll definitely check this out.
Currently I use the Korean instant coffee packets (includes powdered cream and
sugar). Since I get these for about 12 cents a packet, it's unlikely I'll be a
permanent convert, but I adore the packaging for Sudden Coffee.

~~~
freese
Yeah we definitely won't be able to beat that price. Would you buy a Sudden
three-in-one with cream and sugar if there was that option?

~~~
stjarnljuset
I've already ordered the regular kind, but I'd be interested in the three-in-
one also!

I do occasionally drink my coffee black if it isn't super bitter.

------
jtmcmc
This seems great - I've bought a subscription and look forward to trying it at
the office. I hope it's as good as you say so I can try and convince our ops
folks to order it at work.

Curious - have you considered doing coffee tastings at local (or YC) startups
to try and get recurring subscriptions at businesses?

------
mjhoy
As someone who would love to buy this for long bicycle trips, I'm a bit turned
off by the subscription model.

I know you want to hook me with a steady supply of superior coffee that's
quicker to make, but I love the ritual of brewing my own pour-over coffee too
much to think I'd give that up.

~~~
freese
Totally get that! I love making coffee too (guess that's why I'm a barista).
Our goal is not to replace your existing coffee rituals but rather to offer an
alternative that's better than other instants etc.

~~~
mjhoy
Right. My point is I only use instant on a very specific occasion, maybe once
every two years, so a subscription turns me away. I'll still probably try it,
though!

------
p0la
You should put some on Amazon FBA for Europe. Volumes are decent and it's like
super low maintenance. You can then decide where to expend your subscription
based on sales rather than intuition.

I'm based in the UK and I would love to try some.

------
sandGorgon
This is amazing..I wish we had this in India, which is still catching up to
high end coffee.

As a coffee obsessed , but curious hacker - what is the biggest _technical_
challenge in for this? Is it the brewing, or the bean selection..or the freeze
drying?

------
amelius
Those plastic containers; why such expensive and environmentally unfriendly
packaging?

~~~
freese
Working on it. We do individual servings because they preserve freshness -
that's the only reason we do it. It's hard for us to do compostable since we
are still very small compared to your average consumer good, but we are 100%
committed to doing it when we are big enough. We even have 2 sustainability
advisors involved with the company.

------
yawz
I love my cup of good coffee, but this is a little too expensive for me for
day-to-day use. But I may use something like this when I'm on the move or
camping etc. if it is truly better than the best instant.

------
kepano
Congrats on the launch! It's been great seeing your progress since last
summer.

~~~
freese
Thanks! We've loved using stuff from Lumi :)

------
erispoe
Were you on the last season of the pitch?

[https://thepitch.fm/episode/sudden-coffee-
season-2-episode-2](https://thepitch.fm/episode/sudden-coffee-
season-2-episode-2)

------
aedron
How come freeze-dried is preferred over concentrate (pods)? It seems like the
freeze drying process would inherently be more destructive that simply
preserving the liquid in a pod, minus some water.

------
J_Sherz
Why the tubes? What are the downsides of using a standard stick pack format
instead? I would think that's cheaper from both a materials and a shipping
standpoint.

------
the_common_man
And here I was thinking that coffee is a solved problem with starbucks :-) I
wish you had a one-off offer so that I can first taste the coffee before I
subscribe.

------
tmaly
You have me almost sold.

Is there a way to buy some on a one time basis without subscribing?

I would like to sample the coffee before committing to a subscription.

------
romanovcode
Too bad it's only in Canada, Finland and U.S.

Also, why in hell you use plastic as a holder? Do you realise how much waste
you are creating?

------
vmateixeira
From their website: _Instant Coffee

Often made from leftover crops, sometimes 5+ years old. Coffee is unripe,
moldy, or has insect damage. Yikes._

Any sources on this?

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draw_down
Great name!

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freese
Thanks! Kudos to our investor & Chairwoman Caterina Fake - she's the one who
came up with it

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cyberpanther
Why are startups obsessed with subscriptions? Just sell me some coffee. Start
an Amazon store and let them handle the logistics.

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mdesq
Satisfaction Guaranteed section typo: "If your are ever unsatisfied, we are
unsatisfied and will work to remedy the situation."

your -> you

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freese
Thanks for pointing that out! Will fix it.

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riemannzeta
Please do a carbon dioxide extracted decaf!

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freese
Working on it - either that or Swiss water.

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dcgoss
First heard about these guys on the Cooking Issues podcast a while back. Cool
to see them with YC!

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cstrat
I would love to try this out but you guys don't post to Australia yet :(

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freese
We did international shipping until Jan but it turned out to be just a pain. A
lot of shipments got stuck in customs or got lost - it wasn't the customer
experience we wanted and not really worth it for us

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anotherevan
It did make smile when I looked at the country drop-down and the options were
United States, Canada, and… Finland.

I also recommend offering a one-off ordering option. It offers a try-before-
you-commit option, as well as for those who normally brew, but would buy some
of this for when they travel.

I would also recommend adding Australia to your country drop-down, but I have
ulterior motives there.

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rmist
Instant coffee is the definition of "sucks"

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astrocat
Since HN is probably a caffeine-heavy crowd, I'll launch into this here... I
understand the pitch, and I'm happy someone is pursuing better instant coffee.
The status quo is really, truly miserable. If you have the need to carry
coffee on your person at all times so you can have a decent cup wherever you
are, Sudden sounds like a good option. However, I suspect most people drink
their coffee at home or work, and while everyone will have their different
"optimal" coffee scenario, I'll offer my experience to great coffee without
spending unnecessarily on pods or instant:

If you want better coffee, you'll get most out of your investment by buying
fresh, whole beans and a grinder. The $15 blender-like grinders? Just fine for
most. As long as your beans are fresh you'll have a vastly better cup of
coffee. Grind up whole beans in like 30 seconds and stick it in your regular
drip coffee machine and enjoy 10 minutes later. You've now improved your
coffee game 100%.

Find a local roaster, or a roaster that will ship coffee within 24-48 hours
after roasting. The reality is you can often get fresh, locally roasted coffee
for the same price or less than what you can get national brands for like
Starbucks, Pete's or premiums like Stumptown. If you're a 2-4 cup a day,
expect to need 1.5 - 2 pounds (~1kilo) a month. That's probably ~ $30 in fresh
beans. (depends on what a "cup" means to you in terms of volume, but 2 pounds
of beans makes quite a bit of coffee). YMMV, but that's a conservative
estimate.

After that, investment in fancy equipment is much more marginal so make
investments that fit your needs.

The next big step up in quality comes from temperature (regular drip coffee
machines just don't get hot enough for the best flavor extraction), but
solutions to better temperature brewing usually require more direct attention
at brew time. Pour-over is great and inexpensive, and even if you don't take
the time to carefully poor for 5 minutes and just dump, you'll get decent
results. The Aeropress is another option in the same price range that can be
marginally faster and also has really good flavor results. I use one
frequently.

Impatient? Well, if you're thinking of spending $2+/cup on instant (where you
still have to heat the water for those that want hot coffee) because you're in
such a hurry, consider what that will cost you in a year and look at investing
in something like a Breville Barista Express* or independent burr grinder and
espresso machine. You can grind beans and pull a shot in less than a minute.
Drink Americanos (espresso + hot water to yield what is essentially a regular
cup of coffee. Flavor IS different than drip/pour-over though. maybe taste at
a good coffee shop first (not starbucks)) or drink cafe-au-lait (warm
milk+espresso) or even just espresso shots. You'll be net positive in about a
year if you're drinking around two cups a day. This route also ends up wasting
less coffee than making a whole pot and never finishing it (to be fair, also a
pro of Sudden/instant).

* This isn't a plug for Breville explicitly (I DO have one, though), it's just that the Breville is really the only machine of it's type on the market (a grinder and true-espresso machine in one housing, not a super-automatic like the Jura). You CAN get great (maybe better) results with separate grinder and espresso units that have better qualities independently, but you won't necessarily be saving money. Imho, never buy a super-automatic.

You can easily spend ridiculous money on coffee and equipment. For most
people, it's not worth it unless you want coffee to be your other hobby, (or,
"snobby" as I'd probably call it). For me, it's just sourcing fresh beans at
~$20-$30/month and that gets me most 90% of my enjoyment for my multiple daily
cups of coffee. I enjoy my Aeropress, Chemex and espresso machine, but they'd
be useless without good, fresh beans.

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futurix
Sudden coffee? That's when someone knocks the cup into my lap!

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davidjnelson
Do the machines that brew these accumulate mold like keurig machines?

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freese
Do you mean the equipment we use to brew and dehydrate the coffee? We use CIP
process for all the equipment - there's definitely no mold growing in any of
our equipment. For brewing - just add the powder to water or milk, no need for
brewing

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trevyn
Milk? Interesting. Does cold milk work?

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freese
Sure does but you need to stir (or better, shake) it a little more. The best
solution is to mix the coffee in a tiny bit of hot water and then add cold
milk/water.

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ryanx435
when companies do these types of posts, does that mean that they have already
been accepted into the 2017 winter batch of YC companies? or is this just part
of the application process?

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freese
It means that we've been part of the YC winter 2017 since January 3. The Demo
Day was yesterday so it's almost finished actually.

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ryanx435
Winter 17 started in the winter of 2016? Confusing.

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kazinator
> _It’s normally made with the worst beans that are roasted really dark and
> extracted up to 6 times at temperatures up to 180C [...] This process
> results in the gnarly bitter, woody, rubbery instant we all know._

And then there is Nescafe Gold.

Thanks for playing.

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SeaDude
Hm. 1 plastic tube / cup?...eco-booboo -eh?

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freese
Working on it. We do individual servings because they preserve freshness -
that's the only reason we do it. It's hard for us to do compostable since we
are still very small compared to your average consumer good, but we are 100%
committed to doing it when we are big enough. We even have 2 sustainability
advisors involved with the company.

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spinlock
what do you think of the starbucks instant stuff? (personally I think it's as
bad as starbucks but not much worse)

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freese
It's remarkably similar to fresh Starbucks. I think it's up to everyone to
decide whether that's good or not.

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threepipeproblm
Have you measured acrylamide levels?

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freese
We haven't measured them but they should be equal to any high-quality
specialty coffee. I know that regular instant coffees have considerably higher
levels of acrylamides that are caused by poor quality coffee and processing at
extremely high temperatures.

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threepipeproblm
Yes and it might turn out to be a useful marketing angel for you. Thanks for
the reply.

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ricardobeat
Looks great! Can you add the Netherlands to your list of shippable countries?

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hellothree23
holy shit. soooooo expensive.

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freese
Here's our blog post about the pricing and cost breakdown:
[https://goo.gl/WwQLYc](https://goo.gl/WwQLYc)

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akago
I'd try this if there was UK shipping!

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freese
We shipped internationally for about a year but stopped recently since a lot
of packages got stuck in customs or got lost.

