

Smear campaign against Wikileaks begins - shrikant
http://www.thinq.co.uk/2010/8/21/smear-campaign-against-wikileaks-assange-begins/

======
jacquesm
How convenient.

Translation of this article in nu.nl:

[http://www.nu.nl/tech/2316742/voorman-wikileaks-gezocht-
verk...](http://www.nu.nl/tech/2316742/voorman-wikileaks-gezocht-
verkrachting.html)

STOCKHOLM - Julian Assange, the leader of whistleblower website wikileaks is
since Friday even in Sweden a fugitive in two rape caes. This has been
reported by the public prosecutor on Saturday morning according to the Swedish
media.

Two women, aged twenty and thirty have gone to the police on Friday evening to
relate their stories.

Against the one Assange is reported to have used sexual violence last weekend
in the South of Sweden, the other was reportedly raped on Tuesday morning in
the nearby town of Enköping.

According to the justice ministry in Stockholm the reports by the women
contain enough substance to issue a warrant. For the moment it is unclear
where Julian Assange is right now.

Wikileaks, a website that is running on computers in a safe house in Solna
near Stockholm, was recently in the news. The whistleblowers site published
tens of thousands of pages of secret American military documents about the war
in Afghanistan.

\--

[http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/wikipedia/7957665/Wiki...](http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/wikipedia/7957665/Wikileaks-
founder-Julian-Assange-facing-arrest-over-rape-claim.html)

<http://twitter.com/wikileaks>

"Julian Assange: the charges are without basis and their issue at this moment
is deeply disturbing."

------
jgrahamc
Yeah, could be a smear. Could also be true. Let's not have senstional titles
on HN.

~~~
jacquesm
Assange is more than likely aware that he is a 'target of opportunity' to many
institutions, which would make him very circumspect about doing stuff that
could endanger either his reputation or the reputation of wikileaks.

The timing of this is just too convenient to ignore.

For now, until there is some hard evidence I'm in the 'smear' corner. But I
still agree with you about the title, that's an opinion.

~~~
ErrantX
One thing i have learned in my job is this; generally coincidences happen all
the time. The real conspiracies etc. Are much much more infrequent.

Occams razor

~~~
jacquesm
Even the paranoid have enemies.

And Assange has more enemies than most, both corporate and governmental.

------
kilian
Well, that certainly sounds _convenient_ at the very least. Two women in two
towns, with Assange charged in absentia.

Of course it could be true, but somehow that doesn't seem the most reasonable
explanation.

------
smutticus
Here is the Google translate link for the original article in Swedish.
[http://translate.google.com/translate?js=y&prev=_t&h...](http://translate.google.com/translate?js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&act=url&u=http://www.expressen.se/Nyheter/1.2104976/wikileaks-
grundare-anhallen-for-valdtakt&sl=sv&tl=en)

------
ErrantX
I reckon this is a Wikileaks "cookup" to prove how hounded and persecuted they
are.

But then, what do I know.

I don't think we can jump to any conclusions yet

Edit: for the down voters, thie point being made is - we have no idea of
thetruth, take care speculating. Grr

~~~
tome
I don't know why you got downvoted for this. Many seem to be happy with the
idea that an unfriendly government paid these women to smear Assange's name.

It seems to me equally credible that Assange or a friend set up these false
allegations, which once easily dismissed, will indeed show the world how
"persecuted" Wikileaks is.

~~~
ErrantX
Yes, the point wasn't so much i think that's the case - it was just to show
how, hours after this has occured, we can hardly figure out the truth.

I honestly expected better of hn :-(

~~~
tome
Given the amount of sympathy these charges have garnered for Assange, it seems
he'd have been quite smart if he'd chosen to pay these women to make false
claims against him.

~~~
jacquesm
Yes, but if _that_ would come out as the truth he's really shot himself in the
foot. He might as well pack up then, after that nobody is ever going to
believe him.

Scenario 16: Some women get paid to make eyes at Assange, he falls for it,
they have sex, they go and accuse him of rape.

Then hope he pulls a Clinton and ends up having to define the meaning of 'is'.

If I was Julian Assange at this point I'd blow the whole thing wide open and
document each and every little bit of what happened if anything, even if it
makes him look less saintly. That's the best defense against a smear campaign,
if anything at all happened he'll look a lot worse if he tries to cover it up.

And he may have to step down from Wikileaks pending the investigation, which
is another easy win for the opposition, it would be the prudent thing to do.

------
mwg
Let's hope we remember innocence until proven guilty. The timing is suspect
though.

~~~
hermanthegerman
Of course if you want a smear campaign, you choose a charge that ensures that
the innocence before proven guilty principle is immediately dropped.

I wonder why it's not child pornography, that would allow the authorities to
go after every data system he ever touched, and it's way easier to make up
stuff.

~~~
shrikant
Yep, surprised that it's not child porn. Wikileaks hosts quite a lot of
pointers to child porn resources in the form of country-wise website banlists.

~~~
mwg
There is a bunch of CIA guys going "Damnit." right now.

------
DanielBMarkham
I would caution commentators not to make false dichotomies here. It is not
necessarily a choice between Assange committing a crime and Assange being
framed. Both may be true. Neither may be true.

I understand that this fits a narrative, and perhaps it turns out he was
framed. Or perhaps it turns out he is has criminal tendencies and the west
used those tendencies to frame him. Or he's innocent. Or he's innocent and
nobody framed him.

Simply because it fits easily into a narrative does not mean that the most
likely scenario is the narrative. You could make a case that having a criminal
trial would be a terrible thing for intelligence agencies. It'd just give him
a bigger microphone and also put the agencies at risk of being discovered. In
fact, if it is a setup, it's one of the most bone-headed setups I've ever
seen. Better to just kill him. If this is discovered as a frame-job, it'd be a
god-awful PR disaster. The risks don't merit the rewards.

~~~
jacquesm
> If this is discovered as a frame-job, it'd be a god-awful PR disaster. The
> risks don't merit the rewards.

That's the strongest argument against this being a frame-up so far. On the
other hand breaking in to the Democratic party's offices wasn't very smart
either and that definitely happened, and I can think of a few more cases like
that.

Government agencies are definitely not above doing really stupid things that
turn in to PR disasters.

~~~
DanielBMarkham
Which is the strongest counter-argument. :)

But really, trying to frame some guy that a hundred-million people think is
some super-hero? It's crazy. They certainly may be doing it, but it's really
beyond-stupid crazy.

I'd just shoot him. Easy enough to whack somebody, and without evidence people
can spend their lifetimes pointing fingers at each other. Might even make a
great series of books and a movie. But with real, live people making criminal
allegations that aren't true? Lots of little loose ends dangling around. Too
many.

In fact, I'd bet you that even if he was guilty and was not framed, there'll
be a series of investigative articles and blogs "proving" he was framed
anyway. The narrative is simply too hard to ignore.

Which -- if you think about it -- would give him a free hand to commit any
crime he wants. After all, no matter what he was accused of, he was framed,
right?

Welcome to the hall of mirrors.

~~~
Robin_Message
A hundred-million people don't think he is a super hero. I doubt a hundred
million know him by name. And the fact is, it won't be too hard to convert
most of the people who do know of him and like him into disliking him.

This could be the first part of it. Combine it with the first solider to die
which is linked to the information released, and any goodwill the public feels
towards him is going bye-bye.

In the next year, he can probably look forward to going from a modern day
Robin Hood to some weirdo, introverted, odd male hacker who is trying to
disrupt our ordinary lives.

~~~
jacquesm
> I doubt a hundred million know him by name.

They do now.

> And the fact is, it won't be too hard to convert most of the people who do
> know of him and like him into disliking him.

That has probably happened in the last 48 hours.

------
w1ntermute
This could just be a stunt pulled by the tabloid that reported it:

Assange said "Jag har inte blivit kontaktad av polisen."[0]

Translates from Swedish as "I have not been contacted by the police."

0: [http://www.dn.se/nyheter/varlden/anklagelserna-skakar-
wikile...](http://www.dn.se/nyheter/varlden/anklagelserna-skakar-
wikileaks-1.1157157)

~~~
Hagelin
Although the arrest warrant has now been withdrawn:

 _"The warrant was issued late on Friday, said Karin Rosander, communications
head at Sweden's prosecutors' office.

Swedish police have been trying to contact Mr Assange, but have not yet been
able to, she told the BBC.”_

<http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-11047025>

The initial article from the ”tabloid” also contained quotes from a prosecutor
confirming the story.

------
rue
One cannot really make the judgment on this being a "smear" or not at this
point: to include it in the title is irresponsible at best.

The circumstances seem a bit odd (two assaults so close to eachother without a
previous history) which could suggest framing either by an external entity or
the women involved.

According to <http://expressen.se>, _the women apparently do know eachother_
and have at some point been reluctant to co-operate with the investigators
expressing either "being scared to death" or "being in fear for their lives"
because of Assange's high status (the meaning being a bit unclear from the
context).

Still, the accusations are serious and need to be investigated - which should
have happened without publicity but that tends to be utopic when a public
figure is concerned.

~~~
effn
Sorry, but "being scared to death" and "being in fear for their lives" are
your words, and has not appeared in any news reports so far.

The Swedish word "livrädd" just means "terrified", not that you are in fear
for your life.

~~~
rue
That is what I intended to convey with "scared to death" which in English is
used colloquially to mean "terrified". I appreciate that translation is likely
the intended meaning.

I gave both translations because the term used _was_ "livrädd", not merely
"rädd". This could be an intentional obfuscation of the sentiment behind the
words - thus, it could be read to state they said they were "scared to death"
(or "terrified" if you prefer) or actually in fear for their lives.
Implications with plausible deniability.

------
pointillistic
If the CIA wants to get you, they will when you least expect it. Note the case
Viktor Bout who was set up in a sting in Thailand. And even though most
certainly Viktor Bout was working on behalf of the Russian government, he
crossed the line by supplying arms to Afghanistan. And now he is literally
behind bars: <http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/21/world/asia/21thai.html>

~~~
pauldelany
True. _If_ , however, this is indeed a smear campaign - think about what
options are open that wouldn't make him a free-speech (or 'whatever') martyr -
extradition / assassination would have that effect - this wouldn't. Judgement
needs to be reserved (as in all such cases of rape accusation) until the facts
are in. The facts, however, may not be in for a very long time (months, maybe
a year). In the meantime, the media is now free to start every news update on
Wikileaks / Assange with 'Julian Assange, founder of Wikileaks, and accused of
rape in Sweden...'.

------
jimrandomh
To all those wondering why he was not framed for possessing child pornography
instead, the answer is simple. In order to "catch" him with CP, it would have
to be unencrypted. And anyone can see that the only plausible explanation for
unencrypted child pornography in the possession of someone as paranoid and
encryption-savvy as Assange, is that it was planted there deliberately.

------
flog
I suspect WikiLeaks would have a plan in place if Assange was removed.
WikiLeaks should live on and continue to do it's work.

~~~
joezydeco
You mean like that encrypted "Insurance" file that's on there?

------
PassTheAmmo
The Local usually is the best source for Swedish news in English.
<http://www.thelocal.se/28496/20100821/>

Isn't wikileaks hosted in Sweden btw? I don't think it would be affected, but
still a thing to keep in mind.

------
cleo
Perhaps the ladies were dumped and got pissed, or changed their mind a bit
into the act, or perhaps Julian is not quite familiar with the expectations of
a Swedish woman in bed heheh we will defend our female rights and
expectations!). When the ladies happened to meet (quite interestingly) after a
lecture by Julian, they changed information and decided to go to the police.
They only gave info and the police decided to make a case (the police are more
aware than Julian about correctness with feminist and human values at this
point in Swedish rape case history)..then one thing led to the other. The
Pentagon is not amused. This "untouchable" guy keeps farting on their faces
for years, then they're accused of doing a really ridiculous framing job.

------
Hagelin
It’s interesting that Assagne dismisses Expressen as a ”tabloid” when he has
signed up to be a columnist for their main competitor Aftonbladet. While I
don’t read either of them and would agree with the labeling, both papers also
do a great deal of real investigative journalism (Expressen being right-wing
and Aftonbladet left-wing, and this being Sweden ”left-wing" and ”right-wing"
are both a great deal to the left of the american right-wing).

------
lhnz
Irregardless of whether it is false or true, this is clearly a smear due to
the timing and media involvement.

------
aw3c2
The smart wikileaks-supporting and not-believing cyber warrior would not talk
about it. Even by criticising like this, you are giving attention and spread
the accusations.

~~~
jacquesm
That's the cowards way out, not the smart way out.

It's _all_ over the news, from China to the Netherlands and further.

The smart wikileaks supporting and _skeptical_ cyber warrior would do best to
reserve judgement but to show that there is a reason why there is probably
more than meets the eye here.

~~~
aw3c2
I missed that this was everywhere already.

------
cleo
Nothing like bad publicity...Julian soon to be more famous than MJ. Nothing
like news with entertainment value! Add to this a weird but convincing sex
appeal..

------
Mz
FWIW:

1) I've done two college papers on date rape. In most cases, date rape
involves alcohol (ie impaired judgment) and bad communication, often due to
cross cultural misunderstandings.

2) I read once that if you ask a room full of (American?) women how many of
them have been raped, half the hands go up. If you ask them how many of them
said "No" and then had sex anyway, 90% of the hands go up. Given that the
legal definition of rape hinges on consent, I think it's pretty clear that
even women who haven't had completely consenting sex have difficulty figuring
out whether or not they were raped. (On the flip side, I think there is a
counterargument that sometimes, even when she initially said "no", maybe it
wasn't really rape -- which muddies the water even further.)

My point: I think genuinely, unquestionably consenting sex is really a quite
difficult standard to meet and there are many cases of less than ideal
encounters where it ends up being a judgment call on the part of the woman as
to a) how she views it in her own mind ("rape" or something else) and b)
whether or not to publicly accuse/charge someone.

I will toss out the idea that a man who feels not only okay with but morally
compelled to publish all kinds of stuff the American government doesn't want
published (ie without their _consent_ and over their protests, with consent
being the legal lynch-pin for the definition of rape) might well start
applying that general thought pattern to other situations. People who are very
morally self righteous frequently feel justified in treading on the will and
rights of others and then pat themselves on the back for being "heroes". I can
imagine someone who feels he knows what is best for others basically telling
himself "these two women needed it and I'm just doing what is best for them".

~~~
jacquesm
Promoting government and corporate transparency is a service to humanity,
raping people is a crime.

You can't equate the fact that the American government protests about having
their secret stuff leaked to 'knowing what's best' for women that don't want
sex with you.

I'm just waiting for the inevitable groupies that will jump out of the
woodwork that they too have been accosted by Assange at some point in the past
and only now dare to speak up.

It's bound to happen, even if it is true...

~~~
Mz
My experience with people is that a strong personality trait tends to
influence all details of how they live their lives, not just what kind of work
they do. Someone willing to take on the American government because of the
strength of his convictions is someone I would say has an extremely strong
personality trait.

Funny, though not really unexpected, that you would focus on that one remark
when most of my post was basically sympathetic and outlined facts concerning
how difficult it is to determine these things, _even for the people involved_
, much less outsiders who weren't there when whatever happened, happened.

~~~
sprout
If Assange truly is innocent, that's all well and good. But I for one am not
okay with date rape apologists. There's no excuse, as a man, for ignoring when
a woman says no.

This looks like a setup. But that's different from saying Assange is still an
okay guy even if he did it.

~~~
Mz
I'm not an apologist and I'm not saying "he's an okay guy, even if he did it".
I don't see how putting out statistics makes me an apologist. I think it makes
me someone proposing an alternative to the dichotomies offered here of "Either
he's a bad guy who goes around raping women" or "The government framed him".
There is lots of room in life for other options.

~~~
sprout
>My point: I think genuinely, unquestionably consenting sex is really a quite
difficult standard to meet and there are many cases of less than ideal
encounters where it ends up being a judgment call on the part of the woman as
to a) how she views it in her own mind ("rape" or something else) and b)
whether or not to publicly accuse/charge someone.

That's what I was primarily responding to. You don't say it directly, but
you're using very weaselly language to suggest that in some cases it isn't a
terrible thing to ignore a woman when she says no. You're not just 'putting
out statistics.'

~~~
Mz
_That's what I was primarily responding to. You don't say it directly, but
you're using very weaselly language to suggest that in some cases it isn't a
terrible thing to ignore a woman when she says no. You're not just 'putting
out statistics.'_

No, not my point at all and I don't know how you are getting that. My point is
that such situations are often not as cut and dried, black or white as people
would like them to be. That doesn't make me an apologist and it isn't weasily
language. It is just reality that life isn't always easily categorized.

------
confuzatron
I'm really gobsmacked by the amount of fevered bullshit conspiracy-theorising
being spouted by the vast majority of folk on this page! You should be ashamed
of yourselves. Fucking laughable. Down-vote away.

------
RyanGWU82
Smear campaign? Only according to the accused rapist.

Scenario 1: Two Swedish women really are pressing charges against Mr. Assange.

Scenario 2: The U.S. Pentagon is so upset by Wikileaks that they've convinced
a Swedish prosecutor to file baseless rape charges, without actual victims,
against the Wikileaks spokesman.

The simplest explanation is the most likely.

~~~
tomjen3
The simplest explanation is this: the US paid two Swedish women to accuse Mr.
Assange of rape.

This isn't unusual - most rape accusations are false, since there are a lot of
sociopaths out there (who have no shame), and the real victims are too ashamed
to step forward.

~~~
jacquesm
> most rape accusations are false

That does a disservice to the very large number of rape victims out there.

Some rape accusations are false, but to claim the majority of them is false
would require a citation I think.

For instance:

<http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/166281.php>

reports that most of the 'good' (as in done in a scientific setting) studies
report 8 to 10% of rape accusations are false.

See also:

<http://www.slate.com/id/2231012/>

~~~
m_eiman
_> most rape accusations are false

That does a disservice to the very large number of rape victims out there.

Some rape accusations are false, but to claim the majority of them is false
would require a citation I think._

Indeed. I've often heard that claim from people who don't (or don't want to)
believe that in most cases of rape the victim knows the perpetrator. According
to statistics in Sweden, only one third of rapes are performed by someone
unknown to the victim[1].

There was a case like this on TV here recently, where a young boy who has been
found guilty of rape (twice!) gets a lot of sympathy from his community while
the victims are trash-talked along the lines of "she actually wanted it and
changed her mind later"[2].

1: (swedish pdf)
[http://www.bra.se/extra/measurepoint/?module_instance=4&...](http://www.bra.se/extra/measurepoint/?module_instance=4&name=2008_13_V_ldt_kt_mot_personer_15__r_och__ldre_webb.pdf&url=/dynamaster/file_archive/090206/440830a000c40c402bf765c88ba70b5e/2008%255f13%255fV%255fldt%255fkt%255fmot%255fpersoner%255f15%255f%255fr%255foch%255f%255fldre%255fwebb.pdf)

2: (more swedish)
[http://www.google.se/search?q=uppdrag+granskning+v%C3%A5ldt%...](http://www.google.se/search?q=uppdrag+granskning+v%C3%A5ldt%C3%A4kt&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:sv-
SE:official&client=firefox-a)

[edit, added]

Oh, I also forgot one very interesting question: _why_ would a woman falsely
accuse someone of rape? In the case of a custody battle I can see the logic,
but what would be the gain of accusing an acquaintance (who account for a
third of reported rapes)? If it's a case of "did something she later regrets",
wouldn't it be a lot easier to just deny that it ever happened?

~~~
varjag
She might hate that someone's guts, or just find it convenient for some other
reason: [http://www.aolnews.com/story/biurny-peguero-recants-rape-
cha...](http://www.aolnews.com/story/biurny-peguero-recants-rape-
charges/617128)

Not that it happens often, but sometimes it really does.

------
chegra
I think he did have sex with those women. I think it was consent. The women
realize they can make money out of this and charge him with rape. No
government plots.

This I think this is the most likely scenario. Reference: Michael Jackson,
Kobe Bryan, Mike Tyson.

~~~
jacquesm
Sweden is not the United States, you can't make money out of a rape case there
in the same way.

Typically victim compensation is orders of magnitude lower than in the states.
Also Europeans are not as litigious as Americans are in situations like this.

Michael Jackson, Kobe Bryan, Mike Tyson are all American cases and have very
little if any bearing on this.

If he did have sex with those women and it was consensual then he has a real
problem on his hands.

~~~
chegra
Well talking from what I know of cases involving celebs and being accused of
rape, this seems most likely.

Yes it is an interesting situation if he did have consensual sex with those
women.

------
Daishiman
The amount of propagandish trolling in this thread is incredible. It is
absolutely clear that this is a smear campaing.

C'mon, a man who knows is being watched by intelligence agencies because of
the information he divulges, agencies which have covert and public
disinformation programs, would actually go ahead and do such criminal
behavior? Possible? Perhaps, but absolutely unlikely to the point where the
notion is absolutely ridiculous.

I'm beginning to wonder how many of the posts claiming that it's a likely
possibility are paid shills from the various disinformation services.

~~~
jacquesm
You're out of line I think.

The suggestion that people that have been here for _years_ are paid shills
guilty of disinformation is beyond the pale.

I agree that this is _most likely_ a smear and at a minimum blown up, but
evidence is where it is at and people that defend the 'other side' of the
argument (especially ErrantX and DanielBMarkham) are for the most part just
playing the devils advocate and cautioning you to think for yourself instead
of following the herd.

~~~
Daishiman
General Motors hired prostitutes to solicit Ralph Nader because of his
automobile safety activism (from Reddit):
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ralph_Nader#Automobile_safety_a...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ralph_Nader#Automobile_safety_activism)

Believing that these claims, at this point in the affair, have any serious
possibility of being real is to be ignorant of the history of the way power
structures way. Discrediting dangerous figures which are too well-known to be
dissuaded silently is common to the extreme.

And seriously, we're talking about the same power structure that has put
dictators and thieves in places throughout the world when it was convenient. A
smear campaign is about the least dishonest thing that they could do.

~~~
jacquesm
What's that got to do with the price of tea in China, that's just handwaving.

You accused a bunch of people and now you point outside of HN to bolster your
non-existent case. Rubbish.

I'm not taking issue with your interpretation of the case against Julian
Assange, I'm taking issue with your case of there being paid shills in this
thread. Give HN some credit.

------
jlgosse
Well, he has gotten away with some seriously illegal and ridiculous shit with
Wikileaks in the US, so maybe he thinks that he is REALLY above the law now
that he's in Sweden.

This guy seems like a real creep to me anyway, and honestly I don't think
Wikileaks has done much good in releasing all of these confidential documents.

I mean, all he has done is try to turn the American people against their
government, on top of endangering them at the same time by releasing
CONFIDENTIAL documents to the wrong people.

In my opinion, this guy deserves to be locked up, even if it has nothing to do
with this alleged "smear campaign".

~~~
jacquesm
> In my opinion, this guy deserves to be locked up, even if it has nothing to
> do with this alleged "smear campaign".

I think that if this is a smear campaign that is exactly the sentiment that it
was aiming for.

~~~
Ardit20
He had that sentiment already which is encouraging.

