
Ask HN: Sell, open-source, or abandon a $10k/year Mac app? - EvanMiller
In 2011 I wrote a low-end GIS program for Mac, called Magic Maps. The idea for the app was to make a simple, Mac-like alternative to ArcGIS and QGIS that makes it easy to plot points, import Shapefiles, and create chloropleth maps and animations without first wanting to open your veins in a bathtub.<p>It was my first desktop app, so the code isn&#x27;t great, but it&#x27;s found a loyal user base over the years has netted over $50k since 2011. Unfortunately, Magic Maps is now suffering from neglect and bit-rot, and some of the users are starting to revolt. At the very least, it needs a bit of work to fix crashes, ensure it works smoothly on Yosemite, etc.<p>I&#x27;d do this work myself, but I am putting all my time into another app, and as much as it pains me, I just don&#x27;t have time to invest into Magic Maps any longer. I&#x27;m putting this out there because I&#x27;m honestly not sure what to do with the software at this point, and I&#x27;d like to hear other people&#x27;s perspectives. I see my available options as:<p>* Open-source the project. I think open-source works well for a lot of things -- and I&#x27;ve done a lot of open-source work in the past -- but user-friendly software doesn&#x27;t seem to be a good fit for open-source without ongoing sponsorship.<p>* Try to sell the project. This seems ideal, as I think there&#x27;s potential for Magic Maps to be a viable business with a sufficiently savvy owner, but I&#x27;m not sure there&#x27;s a market for code that doesn&#x27;t include a developer or test coverage.<p>* Wind down the project and call it a day. This would be the least amount of work for me, but it hurts me to think about it. It just seems like a waste to throw away all that design and engineering effort -- it&#x27;s a neat little package and I&#x27;d hate to put it in the trash.<p>Have other people been in similar situations? What did you do, and what do you think I should do? Sell it, open-source it, or call it quits?<p>BTW here&#x27;s the Magic Maps home page: http:&#x2F;&#x2F;magicmaps.evanmiller.org&#x2F;
======
EvanMiller
I received an interesting reply over email which I wanted to share here. With
the author's permission I've reproduced it below but blanked out some details:

> I (or we as a company) faced pretty similar situation just a few weeks ago.

> The app is called ______, and it was our first app ever, our child - app
> that constituted our company brand and still is pretty useful for many small
> business owners (_______ is an invoicing app, making something like
> $20k/year on our domestic market).

> Unfortunately(?) business is business, so finally I decided to decline it.
> Now we’re making some final touches and will release it as open source
> project - again facing similar problems - the codebase is almost 6y old, app
> is not trivial, build procedure is not single click etc etc.

> Besides all those risks and problems, I still believe that opening the
> source code is worth doing. That way we can help other (less advanced)
> programmers to start their own mac products/businesses. I’m sure that you’ll
> agree that after a certain point you need to look inside something bigger
> than a trivial app from examples folder, something that is/was a real thing,
> something ‘alive'. That’s IMHO a single priceless source of practical
> knowledge.

> That’s my 10cents :)

~~~
yuhong
I wonder if the name will be released later, after it goes open source.

------
tjr
Not knowing all of the details, I'm not sure how reasonable this would be, but
another possibility is to keep ownership of it, and pay someone else to fix
bugs. The key question there is how much that would cost (in both your dollars
and your time) vs. how much you are making on the application.

------
debacle
I think one of the big problems with the app store model is that it creates
this idea that you only pay once for software, ever.

Your software doesn't have bit rot, it's just old. It was useful at one point
in time and it is just a bit less so now. Consider the value proposition of a
Magic Maps 2.0 to your users and what sort of feature list you could create.
Decide an upgrade price point, and send an email to your users and create a
newsletter allowing them to sign up for the new version. If you get 500 sign
ups, cost out the features and have a freelancer develop them. If you get no
sign ups, pack it up or sell it to someone.

------
nthState
Many of us would love an app that was making $10k a year. That's a lot of
money, can you do without it?

If it was me, my financial situation may be different, but, I'd drag myself up
by the scruff of my neck and set aside some time to fix it......$10k a year!

~~~
EvanMiller
You're right, it's a fair amount of money, and I'm lucky to have this problem.
Right now I'm doing everything I can to focus on another app. I'm trying to
give that app 100% of my time and attention, even if I could be making more
money in the short term doing something else.

I personally find it difficult to work on multiple large software projects at
the same time. There's just so much I can keep in my head at once. If it were
a few thousand lines of code, maybe, but Magic Maps weighs in around 35 kLoC,
and the other one is pushing 100 kLoC. It takes a fair amount of mental
bandwidth to dig into deep bugs, and I'd like to save that bandwidth for my
other app.

~~~
deedubaya
The answer here is to stop supporting the old app. If you're like me and can't
turn your back on something you've invested so much time into, you're in a
predicament.

I had a similar situation, and went the route of open source. The product
died, as no one but me really wanted to maintain it. It was effectively the
same as turning my back on the project while maintaining sales, except without
the $$.

I'd recommend you ignore it and focus on your new app for long periods of
time. Don't fix any bugs for months on end, then take a little time to knock
out the big ones. Ignore the edge cases and focus on the big picture, that
this app isn't your big thing, the next app is.

~~~
EvanMiller
Thanks for the advice. I've basically ignored it for the last couple of years,
but with the Yosemite changes the bugs are reaching a breaking point. One of
my concerns is that the bad reviews are starting to have a "negative halo"
effect on my other app, so I'd like to take some kind of action on it.

In some sense I've been here before. My very first app was an iPhone app,
actually one of the first police scanner apps, with a glowing map of Chicago
that got me into the whole software-mapping thing. I had to put that one out
to pasture a few years ago, even though I thought there could have been a
viable little business in the right hands.

------
echoless
I think there's another option. You could hire a freelancer and have him/her
fix the bugs and get it working on Yosemite. Depending on the complexity of
the code, this may or may not be feasible.

~~~
EvanMiller
Thanks for the suggestion. The code is somewhat complex, though I've tried to
isolate the really hairy parts in separate libraries (e.g. OpenCL code). I'm
really not sure what the ramp-up time would be, and whether it'd be too much.
Where would you look for a Mac freelancer?

For the record the Yosemite issues are the most glaring ones, but there are
deeper crashes and bugs (think "mysterious Core Data error") that have eluded
me.

~~~
echoless
> Where would you look for a Mac freelancer?

Odesk and Elance. Only hire people who've worked on multiple projects and have
high ratings. There are plenty of talented people out there.

> For the record the Yosemite issues are the most glaring ones.

I commiserate. Apple's arbitrary decisions on what APIs are deprecated in
newer versions must be really frustrating for developers. One of many reasons
I shy away from creating desktop applications.

~~~
Jeremy1026
"Odesk and Elance. Only hire people who've worked on multiple projects and
have high ratings. There are plenty of talented people out there."

I am on Elance, but can't get any work because I don't have any history. Can't
get history without any work. The logic in this is flawed. Interview the
people who submit bids, don't automatically rule out people without a history
on the site, you might be surprised what they've worked on in the past.

------
harisamin
I’d be interested in collboarating/contracting if I could help. I just
launched my first mac app [http://mackernews.com](http://mackernews.com) You
should also checkout
[http://sideprojects.assembly.com/](http://sideprojects.assembly.com/)

~~~
soylentcola
On a somewhat unrelated side-note, you might want to look at how those images
are scaling/displaying on your mackernews site depending on the scaling of the
page (I noticed that if I zoomed the scaling in the browser it started to look
better but at normal settings the images compressed vertically but not
horizontally).

I'm not a software or web dev but things like that definitely influence my
decision to try or buy software.

(ex: [http://i.imgur.com/PgmrAm6.png](http://i.imgur.com/PgmrAm6.png))

~~~
harisamin
thanks for the note, just haven't gotten around to it yet, busy with mac app
store stuff and updates, but will do. Do checkout the app on the app store
though :)

------
hayksaakian
Have you considered hiring a contractor tonmaintain the code?

If its generating a profit, maybe its worth it?

------
gsands
I would fix it up.

You get 3 benefits:

1\. Continued income from it (people aren't going to continue to buy it if the
bad reviews keep coming in).

2\. You keep/improve your reputation. If your software isn't working well for
any reason at all, it can give a bad reputation to the person/company
attached.

3\. You increase the chances of a good buy-out in the future, over what it
would currently bring now.

We all know it can be difficult to get traction on a project, not to mention
paying users. You already have proved this one can get both.

~~~
EvanMiller
Thanks for advice. The main issue is that I have better
traction/reviews/revenue on another app, and the work required to get #2 and
#3 on your list would seriously detract from the attention I could give to
that other app.

There have been a few times where I've followed that exact logic to fix it up,
spent a weekend or two on it, and gotten pulled away again. The software has
reached a size where it's hard (mentally) to switch back and forth between it
and my other app.

The other issue is that now that I have more experience doing Mac development,
I'm starting to see that it's not a simple matter of bug-fixing. Some
significant development would be needed to bring it up to the same level of
polish as my other app, and in the meantime I'm concerned it's detracting from
my App Store reputation.

------
tylerhall
I was in the same situation as you a few years ago. My Mac app was making
enough money to be helpful but not quite enough to be worth the trouble. I
seriously considered open sourcing it. But I stuck with it and, four years
later, it grew and began supporting my family full-time.

If you truly believe there's no chance of it ever growing larger, than by all
means, retire it. I've sunsetted many apps that never caught on. But don't
give up on it too soon!

~~~
EvanMiller
That's a great story! What's the app if I may ask?

~~~
tylerhall
[http://clickontyler.com/](http://clickontyler.com/)

VirtualHostX was my first app, the one that grew slowly over a few years and
then took off. Hostbuddy is a small, companion app that does moderately well.
Hobo is my newest, still in beta, that I hope to kick off in February.

------
sbarker
Sell it. Get ahold of esri or partnersoft both have iOS apps yet lack Mac
support unless you run a VM. It maybe a harder sell as most of the industries
that use GIS data (power, telco, gov) use windows. Your are in a premo spot
though because Partner and esri are both pushing iOS for outside guys/field
workers quite a bit right now even if it's only a bullet point for them it
could be a nice pay out for you.

------
samspenc
Please don't wind down the project! I'm sure people are using it because they
find it useful, and I think they would be disappointed if it stopped - I know
I would if someone stopped working on an app I used heavily.

(1) I think its worth trying to sell the app - you did a good job, obviously
it has a user base, and I think its fair you get paid for it and have someone
continue to maintain it.

(2) If that's a hassle and you lose control of the project's trajectory - why
not open-source? Your users would still use it, it would be free, and there
might be some power user willing to take it on and improve the code base.

(3) As someone else mentioned in the comments below, maybe find a contractor
to maintain it? This only makes sense if the cost of the contractor is less
than what you're making off it, of course.

------
opless
I'd consider selling it. I'm sure there's a 100lb GIS gorilla that would snap
you up. Have you tried waving it at them. I'm afraid the only one I know is
MapInfo who I'm sure got bought out by Pitney Bowes back around 2005?

~~~
EvanMiller
Thanks. To sell to a larger company I think I'd need to build a small company
first with at least a handful of employees. I'm trying to step away from this
code if I can to focus on another app, and generally large companies only want
to buy software that come with personnel.

~~~
bcRIPster
I think you're presuming too much. As long as your code is documented and
you're willing to release all potential IP claims as part of the sale I can
imagine there would be someone interested in buying this straight out. You
might even be able to sell them some kind of limited support/consultation
agreement where you don't do code but can answer questions for a fixed period
of time. It's not like you're doing some kind of business exit strategy.
You're just selling off an asset from your portfolio.

------
revorad
You could hire someone. I know you might find it hard to let go of your
codebase and feel it's too complex, but there are plenty of good programmers
out there.

You said you're concerned about how much it might cost. Surely you can afford
to try someone out for a short amount of time, given the app makes $10K a
year. If you shut it down or open source it, that income's gone anyway. So why
not try to keep a good product alive?

One good place to look for a programmer might be the monthly HN threads by
whoishiring -
[https://news.ycombinator.com/submitted?id=whoishiring](https://news.ycombinator.com/submitted?id=whoishiring)

------
glasses
What about letting someone take over the project but you get to keep a share
of the profits for guidance and advice (30% or so).

It benefits both parties, you know what features the project needs to
implement and what direction it needs to take to make more money, while the
new owner/developer gets ramped up. You guys can even agree to a one year
period of help and then separate, but at least the project keeps running and
making money.

Not sure if this is usually done, but it seems like everyone wins :)

~~~
EvanMiller
I like the idea, but it seems a bit risky and would require a lot of trust.
I'd be open to this with someone I trusted, but I don't want someone to take
the software as passive income and ride it down without fixing bugs etc.

~~~
tacostakohashi
Also, no sane person is going to sign up for doing 100% of the future work for
less than 100% of future revenues.

I also have a very marginal side business I want to dispose of (about the same
revenue). The best model I could come up with was that I would be willing to
sell it for, say, 100% of the next years revenue, 50% of the next two years
revenue, etc. That way, the buyer doesn't risk paying too much (since the
price is tied to revenue), and the seller is incentivized to do a reasonable
handover, take care of teething issues, etc, but the buyer will also try hard
to take things over completely for when the seller is no longer around.

------
Mnwhlp
Why don't you pay me to update it and keep half of the profits. That way you
get to keep control of the app and half of the profits while I do all of the
work. I made this public because I think it's a good alternative for you even
we don't end up working together. But hey PM me if you're interested.

------
bdcravens
How much time do you put into it each year? You need to subtract that time
from your yearly revenue.

------
v_ignatyev
Try to receive funds and make business from it: hire developers, create few
updates, try to expand onto new markets etc. and then try to exit this
business.

Or just throw off this project and focus on another one. It's old. It's kind
of liability not a money generator.

------
thelollies
Just saw this on the front page, seems like a good option (get others to work
with you and share the profit):
[http://sideprojects.assembly.com/](http://sideprojects.assembly.com/)

~~~
EvanMiller
Looks interesting, I will take a look. Thanks for sharing.

------
ErikRogneby
This just showed up on HN:
[http://sideprojects.assembly.com/](http://sideprojects.assembly.com/)

Crowd source further development and continue to participate in revenue and
product direction.

~~~
keville
This project _does_ sound like it would be a good match for Assembly's
platform. Good eye!

------
blyxem
With that amount of revenue, you could easily outsource it to an offshore dev
and claim back a lot of your time, while still retaining ownership of the app
and IP.

------
cdvonstinkpot
Related- maybe an option:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8857632](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8857632)

------
emilburzo
How sure are you about your other app? (the one you're investing your time in
currently)

It might be unwise to give some certain away for something not so certain.

------
eric_bullington
It looks like a really cool project that you've already done a lot with, but
also with a lot of potential.

Are there many active competitors?

Is it written in all Objective C?

~~~
EvanMiller
Thanks. The only Mac-only competition I know of is Cartographica, which is
$500 vs $40 for Magic Maps.

It's mostly Objective-C. The core map-projection library is C and OpenCL,
which I had a lot of fun with! I open-sourced that library (ProjCL) a while
back:
[https://github.com/evanmiller/ProjCL](https://github.com/evanmiller/ProjCL)

~~~
eric_bullington
What are most customers revolting about? Problems with the Yosemite? They want
it on another platform, like web or iOS?

It's a real elegant looking app, better visual design than your competitor in
my opinion (although I'm sure lots of work has gone into that app, as well).

~~~
EvanMiller
Bugs (including, but not limited to Yosemite) and some significant UX issues.
One marketing problem I have is that although it's better designed than the
competition, in practice it's not _quite_ as intuitive as it looks. I
characterized a "revolt", but in reality there are two camps of users:

* People who come from traditional GIS, who love it (except for the bugs). These are the revolters.

* People who come from MapPoint, who think they're going to love it but find some things confusing and give up. These people were always discontented with the software at some level.

The frustration from the latter group stems a few unintuitive workflows in the
software (e.g. how data gets imported and linked), some of which are due to
design flaws in the data model IMHO. So although the software looks good in
screenshots, and many people get a lot of value out of it, Magic Maps needs
some work beyond basic bug-fixing to be a "5-star app" that pleases everyone.

------
harisamin
i just recently launched my first mac app
[http://mackernews.com](http://mackernews.com) $10K/year sounds great. Ideally
I’d like to get to that stage. Are there a lot of crashes that you’d like to
fix or mostly Yosemite style UI updates or both? I would be interested in
collaborating/contracting

------
eddie_31003
It would be nice to see it Open Sourced, but I agree that it will fall to the
wayside without ongoing sponsorship.

------
ca98am79
Have you considered selling it on Flippa?

~~~
EvanMiller
There's no desktop section on Flippa.

~~~
csomar
You can sell the website of the app (with the app). I guess you can make
$10k-15k on this.

------
porter
How much do you want to sell it for?

