

Edward Snowden whereabouts unknown as US presses Russia - swombat
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/24/edward-snowden-booked-on-plane-from-moscow-to-havana-live-coverage

======
adaml_623
This is the problem with the media today. Edward Snowden is not the story!

The story is that the governments are illegally bugging people. They are not
stopping the terrorists (Woolwich/Boston). They are harassing legitimate
activists. They are not serving the people they are meant to represent.

EDIT: And of course we, the general public, are not free of responsibility
either for the media choosing to cover the personal interest story rather than
getting their teeth into the politicians who might improve things.

~~~
skwirl
The claim that governments are not stopping terrorists is ridiculous. There
are people who are sitting in jail right now who have pled guilty to plotting
terrorist attacks that were prevented. No, you can never stop all terrorist
attacks, but that is a poor reason to not bother preventing others. You are
free to argue that current surveillance practices did not actually help
prevent these attacks, or that additional regulation and oversight is
necessary, or that you'd rather have the terrorist attacks than any
surveillance, or that terrorist attacks are really the fault of some U.S.
policy that should be corrected, or whatever else you want, but whatever you
argue you really should not just avoid reality and invent your own.

~~~
swamp40
I, and many others I suspect, would just prefer to have a CHOICE - and some
CONTROL of our own lives.

If you prefer the safety and protection of this _New America_ , then you are
welcome to it.

But if there were an _Old America_ , an America ruled by the original words
and meanings of the Constitution, an America where you could be proud of the
goals and ideals of your government, yet humble and grateful that you and your
family were part of it - THAT America is the one _I_ would CHOOSE to live in,
and the one _I_ would defend with my life if called upon.

~~~
davidw
> If you prefer the safety and protection of this New America, then you are
> welcome to it.

He didn't write that, though, did he? He merely asserted that a very broad
spying program was likely to have nabbed some actual bad guys. I don't get why
people can't simultaneously believe that and also be against all the secret
courts and lack of checks and balances, or indeed the spying itself.

------
cstross
I thought it unlikely he'd fly via Cuba: the great circle route from Moscow
flies _much_ too close to US or Canadian airspace for my comfort, if I knew
there was an Espionage Act warrant out for my arrest and the establishment
wanted to make an example of me. ("Diversion due to technical issues" and an
unscheduled stop at Gander in Newfoundland would totally ruin my day, even
short of an intercept and diversion by F-15s over the Caribbean.)

Just guessing here, but the real route ( _if_ Ecuador is in fact his
destination) may be something like bizjet to Iceland, refuel, continue to
somewhere in North Africa, refuel, then over the south Atlantic. And that's
assuming he was ever in Moscow in the first place.

~~~
uvdiv
It actually overflies the US mainland today:

[http://flightaware.com/live/flight/AFL150](http://flightaware.com/live/flight/AFL150)

But on other days it goes nowhere near it:

[http://flightaware.com/live/flight/AFL150/history/20130620/1...](http://flightaware.com/live/flight/AFL150/history/20130620/1005Z/UUEE/MUHA)

~~~
eterm
You make that sound like conspiracy but if you do a fair comparison, i.e.
compare to the flight exactly 1 week previous, it takes the same route.

~~~
schiffern
>You make that sound like conspiracy

I didn't get that impression at all. If that post wasn't "Just the facts,
ma'am", what is?

He didn't say _all_ other days, after all.

------
JonnieCache
Ecuadorian Foreign Minister:

    
    
        I will give a press conference at 7 pm. in Melia hotel, Hanoi.
    

[https://twitter.com/RicardoPatinoEC/statuses/349055771419480...](https://twitter.com/RicardoPatinoEC/statuses/349055771419480065)

 _Vietnam!_ The plot thickens!

I feel an urge to stick bits of string onto a map with push pins.

EDIT: btw 7pm in vietnam is basically now.

~~~
uvdiv
_Vietnam! The plot thickens!_

I doubt Vietnam is relevant here. This visit was announced a week ago:

[http://talkvietnam.com/2013/06/top-ecuador-diplomat-to-
visit...](http://talkvietnam.com/2013/06/top-ecuador-diplomat-to-visit-
vietnam/)

 _" Vietnam will be Patino’s second stopover during his Asian tour. Besides
Vietnam, he will visit the Republic of Korea, Malaysia, and Singapore."_

~~~
Create
This speech is not addressed to Hanoi or to the National Liberation Front. It
is not addressed to China or to Russia.

Nor is it an attempt to overlook the ambiguity of the total situation and the
need for a collective solution to the tragedy of Vietnam. Neither is it an
attempt to make North Vietnam or the National Liberation Front paragons of
virtue, nor to overlook the role they can play in a successful resolution of
the problem. While they both may have justifiable reason to be suspicious of
the good faith of the United States, life and history give eloquent testimony
to the fact that conflicts are never resolved without trustful give and take
on both sides.

"Beyond Vietnam", A Time to Break Silence By Rev. Martin Luther King

------
pinaceae
...and nobody gives a shit about Bradley Manning anymore, the nerdrage
industry has already moved on.

the "real" story should be how seemingly easy it is to get into NSA systems.
billions of dollars in security and they failed to notice what this guy was
accessing/downloading. assume for every Snowden there are at least 5 real
spies in it for the money.

~~~
krenoten
Protecting a system against a malicious administrator is an incredibly
difficult problem. You can bet if the NSA can be stung by it, then so can
almost every other organization.

~~~
gbog
At the very least you should avoid third party companies. I suspect in many
European countries like France or Germany such leak would be less likely
because their government are less prone to trust third parties.

------
crayola
What I don't get is – all the journalists made it sound like he was definitely
in Moscow yesterday, yet by the sound of it nobody actually saw him get on or
out of the HK to Moscow plane? Is that not a huge journalism failure?

~~~
k-mcgrady
I think the first they heard he was going to Moscow he was already on the
flight. Then he was in the secure area of the airport so probably difficult to
get to and find. Considering the number of journalists involved they
definitely failed but I don't think as badly as it looks. Not to mention
WikiLeaks 'confirmation' he was in Russia.

~~~
crayola
The guardian just posted a relevant update, 'How do we know Snowden was ever
in Russia?', which essentially would be better titled 'Why we thought he was
ever in Russia'.

Sounds like it is quite possible that the whole Russia thing was an
intentional diversion planted by Snowden / Wikileaks, to divert media and US
official attention from the true destination..

------
arunitc
"Meanwhile a planeload of journalists are now off to spend the day in Cuba"

~~~
contingencies
Hahaha! That calls for another rum (or maybe a Cuba libre or Mojito). Cigar,
anyone? Bottoms up!

~~~
filipncs
I'm afraid not:

[http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/24/edward-
snowden-b...](http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/24/edward-snowden-
booked-on-plane-from-moscow-to-havana-live-
coverage#block-51c82222e4b0c1d5e990ab42)

 _36m ago Apparently those poor journalists on the plane to Cuba can 't even
drown their sorrows ..._

~~~
contingencies
Sure, no alcohol on some planes ... but I'm sure they'll get at least one
night of debauched journo-drinking before having to fly back to their
stations!

~~~
chaz
They'll get at least 2 nights:

    
    
      And worse (or, really, better?): Thanks to travel regulation
      in Cuba, they'll have to stay there three days before they'll
      be allowed to fly back. 
    

[http://gawker.com/snowden-snow-job-leaker-fools-reporters-
on...](http://gawker.com/snowden-snow-job-leaker-fools-reporters-on-to-cuba-
fli-555021969)

~~~
verroq
This is the most hilarious turn of events so far.

------
tallanvor
One rumor is that he flew to Iceland via Oslo:
[http://www.tnp.no/norway/panorama/3802-pirate-party-
norway-s...](http://www.tnp.no/norway/panorama/3802-pirate-party-norway-
snowden-passed-through-norway-to-iceland)

~~~
uvdiv
This rumor has a credibility problem:

* The Oslo flight left only 20 minutes after the Hong Kong arrival

* That route would involve four flights to reach Iceland (stopping in Moscow, Stockholm, and Oslo). The trip can be done in two: you don't need the Moscow or Oslo stops.

~~~
werid
Considering they claimed one of their sources was within wikileaks, it's
likely it's part of a wikileaks/Snowden plan to obfuscate his real travel
plans.

------
balabaster
Is anybody else watching this with glee? This is the stuff movies are made of.
The school yard bully who has been tolerated for years is finally being put in
its place. "Oh shit, Snowden poked you in the eye? Maybe if you didn't spend
so much of your time bullying everyone else, he wouldn't have done that...
P.S. if you want him, you're gonna have to go through all of us... we're not
putting up with your shit any more either."

~~~
agilebyte
Yeah, imagine a "what if" movie where Snowden is on the Aeroflot flight from
Moscow. You have journalists and secret agents on the plane. Some agents try
to talk sense into him, others try to block them (no weapons allowed so they
resort to slapping each other), journalists snapping pics and posting stuff on
Twitter. All the while the plane is closer and closer to NATO airspace with
trigger-happy generals. At the same time you have maybe 5 people on the plane
that don't know what is going on and actually want to fly to Cuba (for a
vacation say). And, there is no alcohol on board...

------
gexla
Maybe he is clinging to the landing gear Bruce Willis style.

With all this mess, I wouldn't be surprised to wake up tomorrow to see
"Snowden says 'screw it, take me back to Hong Kong.'"

Unless this is all some very well orchestrated smoke screen, it must be crazy
stressful. Maybe he should just parachute out and take his time to figure out
what to do in international waters.

------
lignuist
He will probably make a fortune by selling the story to Hollywood.

~~~
segmondy
Hollywood can make the story without his side, they have enough info. You can
bet, a hundred people are furiously and actively penning their scripts
regarding this.

------
Peroni
It's pretty mind-boggling that thanks to the likes of twitter, we can actually
see the seat he was meant to be sitting in as the plane is ready to take off -
[https://twitter.com/maxseddon/status/349106511257161729/phot...](https://twitter.com/maxseddon/status/349106511257161729/photo/1)

~~~
k-mcgrady
"The seat he was meant to be sitting in"

Did he actually have a ticket for this flight in his name? If not this is just
a seat on a plane that a lot of incorrect people thought he would be on.

~~~
derda
I read yesterday that sources within the airport/airline confirmed that his
name was on the passenger list. Also the cabin staff has a printed passenger-
seat list, no doubt that in a plane full of journalists at least one of them
will get a glimpse on it.

------
chrislaco
It's called misdirection. Leak that you're leaving Hk, via Russia, via Cuba.
That take a completely different route. Tradecrafty.

