
Interview: Larry Wall - mksaunders
http://www.linuxvoice.com/interview-larry-wall/
======
Fede_V
I have a very charming Larry Wall story. He came to give a seminar to the
research center where I was working, and gave a fantastic talk on Perl 6.

Late in the evening, I ran into him and his wife on the bus when getting home
from work - and started talking to them. Apparently, nobody from the
department had arranged to take them out for dinner, so we ended up going out
for dinner together, where we had a fantastic discussion covering religion,
tolerance, and lots of other topics. I am a staunch materialist and atheist,
while both the Walls are serious committed Christians, but we had a really
pleasant discussion on religion and the nature of evidence.

I ended up giving his wife a copy of Hume's Dialogue on Natural Religion, and
they were kind enough to sign a copy of the Camel book for a friend who is a
huge Perl fan.

A lot of people know Larry by reputation - but his wife Gloria is just as
smart and kind. It was a bit of a strange evening, but it was a rare privilege
to meet two such interesting people.

------
tomphoolery
I'm such a fan of how Larry Wall speaks and writes, it's filled with a million
little tangents that are stories of their own, but everything relates to the
same thing of course. His BigThink videos are entertaining and enlightening.
I've always respected Larry, even though Perl was sort-of "before my time" and
I never got to write much in his language. But the fact that I mostly have
written in languages (for server-side web development) that have been
influenced by Perl makes me feel like I understand what he was going for.

------
ryanmarsh
Perl was the second programming language I learned. Teenage me idolized Larry
and his hippie wisdom.

"... the three great virtues of a programmer: laziness, impatience, and
hubris." — Larry Wall

------
vijucat
While building perl6, you see "-Larry -Wall" as part of the gcc args, which I
thought was a clever + syntactically correct joke :-)

~~~
lmm
One of my friends built a project that included a library called "library".
You would link it with -lrary.

It was funny for about 30 seconds and then just frustrating when debugging the
build.

------
mempko
I started learning perl 6 to prototype creating a DSL. Holy fucking shit perl
grammars and actions are cool.

~~~
eliben
Yes, but...

Perl's greatest criticism is that it's friggin' unreadable, especially when
written by less-than-stellar coders. It's my impression from a skim of Perl 6
that due to a bunch of fairly intricate features added there, it will be come
even less readable than Perl 5. Is that a mistaken assessment?

~~~
esaym
I used to have trouble reading the Perl5 code I would write a few weeks later.
But these were small scripts I'd write and a month or two would go by before
I'd right another one.

The issue was I didn't fully know the language. Having spent a few years in
Perl 5 now, I no longer have this issue. But the Ruby 1.8 code I wrote 5 years
ago I can no longer read, I seem to have forgotten it. I never have been able
to read Python, I don't know it either (though I do from time to time dig
through their std lib and port some stuff into my modules I author :).

The point is, you can't read a language that you don't know, this is such an
old argument. And saying "you can read a language if you don't know it if it
is easy enough/designed right", is just well... just keep me away from those
languages... Reminds me of a 70 year old retired EE friend of mine. He still
buys only chips that come with Basic onboard stating "its so simple, I could
never learn any of this new languages", yet what takes him a page of basic, I
can do in one line in any modern one... The point is simplicity is just one
trait out of many, you can't hang everything on it.

~~~
aidenn0
To me, Python is so close to pseudocode that I find it very readable. I found
and fixed a bug in python code having never before seen any python code. At
the time, I only really knew C.

~~~
a3n
"Executable whiteboard."

------
spenczar5
> Up until now, the Python community has done a much better job of getting
> into the lower levels of education than we have. We’d like to do something
> in that space too, and that’s partly why we have the butterfly logo, because
> it’s going to be appealing to seven year old girls!

Heh, I can't tell whether or not he's kidding.

~~~
morbius
Perhaps a bit of both. Regardless, Larry's intentions are good and he's an
angel -- which is rare among programmers. Many (like Linus, RMS, DHH) are
almost sociopathic in how they view others' work and treat the people they
work with, so it's very refreshing to see someone that's not only passionate
about his work, but gentle and kind as well.

------
mirceal
the man is a legend.

Perl was awesome when it first came out. Its time has passed but you can see
Perl's influence in many things we use and take for granted today.

favorite writing:
[http://www.wall.org/~larry/pm.html](http://www.wall.org/~larry/pm.html)

~~~
tootie
The first time I saw "use strict"; at the top of a JavaScript file, I wiped a
little tear for Larry Wall.

------
elchief
Would I be nuts to pick perl over python as my main scripting/server admin
language? I am a postgres, openbsd, data/text processing guy.

OpenBSD is 40% perl. Postgres uses perl for its builds. Perl seems to have
better text processing capabilities. But it seems to be dying out compared to
python.

~~~
colechristensen
You would be reasonable.

Perl often fits in better with the 'advanced shell scripting' type of work
than Python or Ruby. It has more libraries for unix-like admin tasks, but less
common support for external APIs (which more commonly support
Java/Ruby/Python/etc.) so it may be an uphill battle if you use a _lot_ of
external APIs.

Perl won't ever 'die out', especially if you write good perl that doesn't
depend on flashy popularity-train things. It's far too ingrained in many unix
derivatives.

If you're a server admin, you're missing out if you don't know perl. Choosing
perl might be a little less common today, but it's totally reasonable if you
want it.

~~~
Diederich
> but less common support for external APIs (which more commonly support
> Java/Ruby/Python/etc.)

Yesterday, there were an even 60 CPAN module releases, and that is a pretty
typical day. Most of them weren't NEW modules, but some were.

It's true that you don't as often see Perl APIs released along with the
various 'external API' things, but, as someone who probably spends too much
time tracking the various new hot things, Perl API support is first rate. It's
damn rare that I don't see a Perl API for something, even if it's relatively
new.

I'be been watching CPAN for a long, long time, and I will say that it's more
vibrant and active now than I have ever seen it.

------
runewell
I miss Perl. It was the first programming language I learned as a kid. I read
the entire Perl for dummies book when I was 14 and uploaded my first script to
a "cgi-bin" shortly after. Thanks Larry for your contributions!

~~~
eCa
If you want to make a web app with modern Perl practices, check out
Mojolicious[1] or Dancer[2].

[1]
[https://metacpan.org/release/Mojolicious](https://metacpan.org/release/Mojolicious)

[2] [https://metacpan.org/release/Dancer](https://metacpan.org/release/Dancer)

~~~
fibo
Mojolicious is Great, a flying holy Camel.

~~~
pvaldes
or Catalyst

------
kriro
Perl will always have a soft spot in my heart. I remember accidentally putting
down the Llama book on a stove top, still have that half burned book.

Only non-trivial thing I ever wrote in Perl was the obligatory irc bot :)
Spaceship operator...says it all imo

Those were different days. I got the O'Reilly catalog at a book store
regularly and marveled at the possibilities and cool books because I didn't
have reliable Internet.

------
doug1001
prodigious intellect and a childhood hero of mine. Unfortunately his
contribution to web design rarely gets mentioned
([http://www.wall.org/~larry/);](http://www.wall.org/~larry/\);) no bootstrap
--incredible.

~~~
mden
For the ease of others (your link is broken):
[http://www.wall.org/~larry/](http://www.wall.org/~larry/)

~~~
doug1001
works for me; in any event, here's the homepage:
[http://www.wall.org/](http://www.wall.org/)

LW's blog is behind the first link from the top

------
cag_ii
Slightly off topic, but has there been any "State on the Onion" updates since
2007[0]? I always looked forward to reading these and was surprised to find
nothing new since I last checked some years ago.

[0]
[http://www.perl.com/pub/2007/12/06/soto-11.html](http://www.perl.com/pub/2007/12/06/soto-11.html)

~~~
nnutter
A recent post that seems relevant,

[http://shadow.cat/blog/matt-s-trout/sotv-vi/](http://shadow.cat/blog/matt-s-
trout/sotv-vi/)

------
logicallee
I had to check the year on the article - "He’s the creator of Perl, a
programming language that’s _widely regarded as the glue holding the internet
together_ " was arguably true in 1999 - 16 years ago.

~~~
eli
I get what you're saying, but if Perl magically stopped running today I think
there's a legit chance the Internet would cease functioning.

~~~
giaour
[https://twitter.com/devops_borat/status/248770195580125185](https://twitter.com/devops_borat/status/248770195580125185)

------
amagumori
i like the recursive sentence "you could have something that you think of as a
noun, but you can verb it"

~~~
mlitchard
I'm a bear of very little brain, could you explain the recursive properties of
this sentence? I don't see them.

~~~
aheilbut
It's self-referencing, but I agree that this is not strictly recursive.

~~~
raister
you must be funny at parties

~~~
aheilbut
If you don't understand the difference, read this sentence again.

------
kluck
I will never give up on Perl. There are just a whole lot of really talented
people involved ;)

------
catwell
Like several others in this thread, Perl was my first "real" language after
POSIX Shell (I started by reading and modifying the early Frozen Bubble
sources), and Programming Perl was my first programming book.

That kind of introduction to programming may not be for everyone, but I
believe it was instrumental in me making software my career.

I had the privilege to be in the room at FOSDEM when Larry announced Perl 6
for _this_ Christmas. I don't write much Perl those days, but I certainly am
going to play with Perl 6. Even if I never write anything useful in it, there
are certainly lots of ideas to be taken from that language.

------
esaym
If anyone cares there was a recorded Larry Wall Q&A session at YAPC a month
ago:
[https://youtu.be/PK9UnAmrxsA?t=12m40s](https://youtu.be/PK9UnAmrxsA?t=12m40s)

------
doomrobo
>you have a lot of instances of shoving one word into a different slot...you
could have something that you think of as a noun, but you can verb it

Oh, Larry

------
codeshaman
I love the shirt he's wearing in those pictures. What is it with geeks and
psychedelic/hippie outfits ? Is it because of the patterns and colors,
eccentricity or because of real involvement with the
counterculture/psychedelia ? It's always fascinated and intrigued me.

Any people 'in the know' care to elaborate on that ?

~~~
cpach
Well he attended UC Berkeley in the 1970s, so it’s safe to assume that he has
had lots of exposure to hippie culture.

There are actually quite strong connections between computer nerds and the
counterculture of the 60s/70s. If you’re curious I recommend the following
books:

# _What the Dormouse Said: How the Sixties Counterculture Shaped the Personal
Computer Industry_ / John Markoff. A great book with many fascinating
characters.

# _From Counterculture to Cyberculture: Stewart Brand, the Whole Earth
Network, and the Rise of Digital Utopianism_ / Fred Turner. Also an
interesting read, but much less accessible than Markoff’s book.

# _The Cuckoo’s Egg: Tracking a Spy Through the Maze of Computer Espionage_ /
Clifford Stoll. Very good book, reads like a detective novel in a Berkeley
setting.

PS. More psychedelic shirt goodness this way:
[https://www.google.com/search?q=larry+wall&tbm=isch](https://www.google.com/search?q=larry+wall&tbm=isch)

~~~
hinkley
"Two things came out of Berkeley: LSD and Unix. We do not believe this to be a
coincidence."

~~~
koenigdavidmj
LSD and BSD.

~~~
gjkood
See Chapter 1 of the Unix Hater's Handbook.
[http://www.csf.ac.at/fileadmin/user_upload/BioComp/training/...](http://www.csf.ac.at/fileadmin/user_upload/BioComp/training/unix_haters_handbook.pdf)

------
rmchugh
the linux voice interviews are in general really good. keep up the good work!

~~~
mksaunders
Thanks :-) Glad you enjoyed it.

------
combl
Always a pleasure to see Larry.

------
yarou
Larry Wall is a great guy. Perl brings me back to the days of my Pentium 2,
tinkering about with my primitive IRC bots.

~~~
smacktoward
Perl was what made one my all-time favorite side projects possible.

Back around 2000, I was working at a mid-size company that stored tons of data
in a company intranet. There was lots of useful stuff locked up in there, but
hardly anybody ever used it because the web interface was clunky and slow.

One day I had a brainstorm, and after a few evenings' Perl hacking it was up
and running -- a conversational interface to the intranet, running over AOL
Instant Messenger. You added the bot as a buddy, and then you could query the
intranet a bunch of different ways; IM it a client's name, for instance, and
it would ping you back with their contact information, who their account reps
were, what projects they were associated with, etc. (Which is very useful when
your phone rings and it's someone you don't recognize.) Pretty nifty stuff,
for the time. Everyone had AIM running all the time anyway, so this turned out
to be a big hit -- much bigger than I ever expected.

And I probably never would have been able to get it working were it not for
the ease of programming in Perl and the ability to tap into CPAN's massive
library of code and take advantage of modules like Net::AIM
([http://search.cpan.org/~aryeh/Net-
AIM-1.22/AIM.pm](http://search.cpan.org/~aryeh/Net-AIM-1.22/AIM.pm)). So
thanks Larry, and thanks to all the Perl folks who contributed to CPAN over
the years!

------
melling
This question was submitted 7 hours ago and appears on the front page with 8
points. There must be a way to play with the ranking algorithm.

~~~
vezzy-fnord
It's the mods out with a new feature, see dang's reply here:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9864365](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9864365)

~~~
melling
Interesting that 8 points was enough. Well, it's off to the races. People
should remember Perl programmers sleep late and live on the West Coast.
Nothing before 1pm EST.

Let the Perl reminiscing commence.

Also, the warning as to why you should never start over.

[http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/fog0000000069.html](http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/fog0000000069.html)

~~~
rrss1122
I started out learning Perl. This was when 5.10 was the newest version which
was pretty much forever ago.

I just went to look up Perl 5.10 release notes, and they billed it as "the
first major upgrade... in over five years."

[http://dev.perl.org/perl5/news/2007/perl-5.10.0.html](http://dev.perl.org/perl5/news/2007/perl-5.10.0.html)

I would have loved to keep using Perl in a professional setting but even when
I first learned it, it was already forever between two major updates. Perl was
fun to use. It's just too bad everyone moved on.

~~~
greglindahl
That was the nadir of perl releases. Starting in 2010, they've released a new
major version each year.

The first serious perl compiler was just released a week ago:
[http://rperl.org/](http://rperl.org/)

Some people moved on, some people stayed.

~~~
rurban
How do come to the opinion that rperl is the first "serious perl compiler"? It
certainly is not.

