
Lawyer: ‘It’s a Free for All’ for Criminals on BART (Bay Area Rapid Transit) - hanging
https://www.mercurynews.com/2018/07/30/lawyer-its-a-free-for-all-for-criminals-on-bart/
======
twblalock
This is why it's hard to get support for public transit funding. People don't
want to take public transit if they will fear for their lives, or be
surrounded by drug addicts and mentally disturbed people yelling at and
spitting on other passengers.

BART trains and stations are like this on a regular basis; Muni has the same
problems but not as bad. I've seen this kind of thing happen on Caltrain late
at night also, but much less often. I have never, ever seen it happen in
London or anywhere in Japan.

It's easy for people in the Bay Area to believe this is what all public
transit is like, unless they have experienced better systems elsewhere. Why
would they want to use it, or pay for it with their tax money? It's safer to
take your own car, or an Uber.

I'm a big fan of public transit, especially trains, but it's just never going
to be improved in the Bay Area if people don't feel safe.

~~~
esotericn
Is this just an American thing? Healthcare funding, or something?

I've never been to SF, but I've visited NYC, and the subway there feels like
stepping in to a horror movie.

During a two week visit I saw people passing out and being ignored (I was the
only one attempting to help), individuals swinging around bricks in socks, and
various other obvious examples of severely mentally ill individuals.

In London I've never seen anything like it.

It genuinely felt like stepping in to some sort of twilight zone. Compounded
by the fact that other commuters seemed jaded, as if it was normal to be
regularly surrounded by individuals who act more like rogue AIs than human
beings.

~~~
thatswrong0
The funny thing is that, to me, the NYC system seems to work so much better
than San Francisco’s, based on my usage of it. And NYC also has a much bigger
police presence than San Francisco, which results in it feeling like a much
safer city.

~~~
louisswiss
Agreed. NYC didn't feel much worse than London or Berlin. Even late at night.
Public transport in SF was _scary_.

------
ransom1538
If you take BART and ride into Oakland -- you are on your own.

There is no one that will protect you. My next door neighbor was assaulted.
She was brutalized. Sigh. It was bad. THEN she went home, reported it with
police.

This is where it gets weird. The people that assaulted her -- armed with her
ID card went to her _APARTMENT_ \-- luckly she was somewhere else with her
parents. The people that brutalized her ransacked her apartment without care
of being caught.

The detective on the case was really awesome from Oakland PD. He talked with
me since I saw one of the guys leave the apartment. He mentioned: "She is
lucky". Unfortunately, he explained, there is no way to prosecute these guys
unless there is camera evidence.

~~~
nodesocket
This ideology of inaction, or "nothing" we can do about it, is a phenomenon
unique to the bay area. I used to live there, and it is one of the reasons I
left. Criminal activity is not pursued, bad behavior is not penalized. I'm
sure there are many reasons, but I suspect a big factor is that police and
politicians are afraid of cracking down due to the political fallout and
backlash. There is a palpable disdain for police officers there.

The ironic thing is the people who are mostly likely voters and taxpayers are
the ones who are fed up with the crime and leaving.

~~~
pteredactyl
Yea I'm in SF not sure how long I'll last.

It's a cess pool. Criminals have more rights than children.

There was a crazy homeless guy who would shit everyday in front of a school in
Bernal. The police couldn't do anything about it.

You are completely right about the fear of political fallout for wanting to
uphold the law. It's sad.

~~~
mindslight
> _You are completely right about the fear of political fallout for wanting to
> uphold the law._

The erosion of respect for the rule of law is a direct result of the attempt
to use law to implement a top-down social design, chiefly the "war on drugs".
With policing being a public good, those with the least means _should_
appreciate police _the most_. But rather their communities were persecuted
using the police, and so those communities were pushed into adopting an
alternative view. Similarly, even mainstream society does not actually expect
police to be helpful towards us but rather as a source of trouble to be
avoided (eg speeding tickets).

Given that public opinion cannot be directly changed, good initial steps to
restoring public faith in the institution would be to eliminate invasive vice
legislation, completely remove police from the enforcement of traffic
regulations, as well as fully prosecuting criminals even when they're police
officers.

~~~
pteredactyl
I'm not sure I follow or agree with your first premise RE war on drugs. (The
'why')

But I do agree on your initial steps for restoring public faith.

------
AndrewKemendo
I'm sure that some other people have run into this scam on BART but I had it
happen a few years ago.

Right before the doors close at the SFO BART stop headed to Milbrae, a guy
runs on all out of breath yelling and pleading for money to get a ticket for
his sick daughter. He's a war vet and needs to get her to the hospital in
Travis but they won't let her on the plane for some reason etc...Does this
till the Milbrae stop and I assume gets on going back and does it again.

When I told him I'd help him if he could just produce his mil-ID or VA-ID he
came over and flashed a wad of 50's and 100's and threateningly said "I don't
need to show you shit." Then went back to his histrionics.

Obviously this wasn't an attack, or illegal but it was pretty brazen, as it
was in front of everyone and he didn't even seem to care that everyone saw his
huge wad of cash. Most of the people I see doing illegal stuff on BART (and
even on WMATA here in DC) don't really seem to think anyone is going to stop
them and they seem to be right most of the time.

~~~
theNJR
Ha, I had a guy similar to this today on the SFO airtram going from the rental
car drop off to the terminal. He got on at International A and got off at the
next stop.

Like your guy, he was pleading for money for his daughter. He had a very long
back story, including the fact that a police officer already gave him $17 (and
referred to the cop by name). Lots of unnecessary detail like that, trying to
make it seem more plausible.

Everyone ignored him. He got off then jumped on the train going the opposite
direction.

I wonder how much he makes a day.

------
lacker
I was especially surprised when that gang of 50 people stormed a Bart and
robbed a bunch of passengers and nobody was ever arrested. I don’t know if
it’s the Bart police at fault or the Oakland police but it sure seems like law
enforcement is weak on the Bart.

~~~
louisswiss
Very rarely see police on the Tube in London (or in Berlin, Lisbon, Milan or
Barcelona for that matter). Still little crime (other than pickpockets) and
practically no violent crime.

Seems to me like the problem is probably bigger than just failings in law
enforcement.

------
dokein
This is, I think, partially the result of decriminalization. When a vocal sub-
population says "oh no, but poor people have no agency, and therefore no
choice but to commit crime / evade fares, etc. and we should be more lenient"
this is the result. And the people who suffer the disproportionately are the
working class who rely on public transit.

Even if BART doesn't have enough officers, spending a few thousand to put up
high-def cameras so some other PD can kick open these assailants' doors and
arrest them would help significantly.

~~~
nicoburns
Evading fares is one thing. Assaulting people us a whole other matter!

------
pfarnsworth
My coworker was sexually assaulted on the BART, on the East Bay side of the
tracks. A group of youths started sitting around her, took off her headphones,
groped her, took her picture several times with them groping her, laughed and
then left after terrorizing her for 10 minutes unabated. There was nothing she
could do, she is a tiny, attractive Asian female sitting by herself and no one
stepped in to help her (to be fair, who would risk themselves by stepping in
against a large group of youths). She contacted the police, but they said
there was nothing they could do and frankly they couldn't have cared any less.
She never took the BART again, and moved to the peninsula.

There's nothing stopping criminals from victimizing you except the law of
large numbers, meaning your only protection is dumb luck these days, and not
the police. And if it happens to you, the police largely won't do anything
about it.

~~~
Bud
"These days"? So there was some magical protection against criminals in the
past, which no longer exists?

~~~
closeparen
Yes, it was called the criminal justice system. At some point along the way we
decided to have a minimal police force and prosecute only the most obvious and
heinous crimes, letting all kinds of “low level” stuff like this become
effectively consequence-free.

~~~
Bud
Sources on when "we" decided that and on the actual reduction in numbers of
police, please.

------
thatswrong0
Yeah, BART police is a joke. I don’t remember ever seeing a BART police
officer riding a train with me. I rarely see them in stations. Getting in and
out without paying almost seems easier than paying. SF and Oakland officers
never stroll through stations, which is so obviously wrong from a public
safety standpoint, yet it seems to be policy. Then again I rarely see SF
police officers walking the streets as it is.

Yet we just kind of let it happen. Not sure what to do to fix it.

~~~
vondur
Fixing it is easy. Arrest and prosecute criminal behavior. California won't do
it though. It's only a matter of time till some of the larger tech companies
decide that the Bay Area is too far gone and start leaving.

~~~
cylinder
What makes you think the people who make these sorts of decisions are exposed
to any of this?

~~~
vondur
When people stop taking jobs in these areas. Not sure how long that will take.
I do remember reading how the American Medical Association canceled their
conference in San Francisco due to the homeless issues.
[https://abc7news.com/medical-association-cancels-san-
francis...](https://abc7news.com/medical-association-cancels-san-francisco-
convention/3693233/)

------
nradov
The HN demographic skews male, and I suspect a lot of the men who are big fans
of public transport here fail to appreciate how unsafe many women feel on
those systems.

~~~
new299
Yes. There’s a reason that Japan created a new term “Chikan” to describe
gropers on trains. It’s exceedingly common. Recent reports, suggest that
almost every woman who has used a underground in Japan regularly has been
groped at some point.

I asked the women in Japan who I know well enough, and they confirmed this.

Japan tries to combat this with female only carriages.

I was recently talking to a woman in the US about this, she suggested that it
was also quite common in the US. So perhaps, there’s just a more public
discussion about this in Japan.

I’d love to see statistics on this, if anyone has them.

~~~
fenomas
Groping is certainly an issue in Japan, but much less so than in the past. MOJ
stats show around 8K cases/year in the sixties and seventies, with that
dropping to ~1.5K by 1990 and ~1K in recent years. (Anecdotally it's probably
dropped even more than that, as one would expect more cases went unreported in
the 60s than today.)

Stats: e.g.
[http://www.moj.go.jp/content/001178520.pdf](http://www.moj.go.jp/content/001178520.pdf)

Side note: according to an article I read at some point, women-only train
carriages have apparently not noticeably affected statistics on groping cases.
(Which is not to suggest they're not worthwhile for other reasons.)

------
eqdw
The April 22nd attack was the thing that drove me to pull the trigger on my
plans to leave the bay area. I was not going to live in a place where the
local authorities were unwilling or unable to keep me safe to that degree.

I'm glad that now, finally, the victims of that might be getting some justice

------
mc32
If BART wants its ridership to feel safe they need two things: increase
officer presence (and prosecute vigorously) and two add cameras all over their
properties. No fake pretend cameras. Deter and prosecute violators. Looking
the other way when things happen, slaps on the wrists, etc., don’t work.

I think BART is shy because at least there is one incident of manslaughter by
one of their officers. On the other hand not having officers also leads to
death and assuaults of passengers and loss of ridership.

Have a strict code of conduct, enforce it vigorously, train officers properly
and educate riders via station and in car infation systems.

Otherwise it risks going into a service death spiral.

~~~
masonic

      one incident of manslaughter by one of their officers
    

If you're referring to Oscar Grant[0], the verdict was involuntary
manslaughter, but I thought it was clearly murder (with, perhaps, questionable
sanity) -- Grant was fully subdued and not resisting when he was shot.

Ironically, the sentence of IM plus the gun enhancement meant more prison time
than Voluntary Manslaughter alone would have.

[0]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Oscar_Grant#Closin...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Oscar_Grant#Closing_arguments_and_verdict)

~~~
mc32
Obviously they need better training --they should not accidentally shoot
people/suspects under control. They could make more use of K9 units to
neutralize suspects as well --much as they do in Germany.

We should demand more from their security forces as well as from the public
both.

------
diogenescynic
I’m a big dude, 6’2” and broad shouldered, and even I regularly feel unsafe on
BART. I’ve seen tweakers spit on women and attack them, I’ve seen out of their
mind bums screaming racist slurs at people in their face, and yet I’ve never
seen cops do anything about it. Likewise, I even see BART employees at that
window open the disabled stall and emergency exit for homeless people and
tweakers to get into BART. If they’d just keep the people out who aren’t
paying, they’d fix most of the issues but they don’t even bother. Although, I
have seen more cops lately patrolling BART stations (Montgomery and
Embarcadero during business hours...) but never seen them in the trains.

------
jackcosgrove
It seems like the Bay Area is going through what New York City went through in
the 1970s and 1980s.

~~~
Bud
Not really. Check the violent crime stats before making such claims.

------
ridgeguy
Given our overall expenditures on BART, would it cost so very much to ramp up
security presence to a level that would prevent at least 90% of these
offenses?

BART is a critical resource in the Bay Area. It has to be safe and reliable to
be useful. I feel like we've spent 95% of what is needed, but haven't gone
above the 75% yield threshold.

~~~
wolco
By stopping free rides the enforcement will pay for itself and the empty cars
will make everyone happier.

------
kaycebasques
This sounds like the symptoms of a death spiral to me. BART doesn’t have
enough money to police its cars and stations. They get sued for failing to
provide security, resulting in even less money for policing...

However, I’m not sure whether it’s actually true that BART is low on funds.

------
pteredactyl
Same is true for San Francisco.

Criminals have more rights than children.

Or taxpayers...

If we are to have a functional civilization we must remain open but also learn
how to say no to unacceptable behavior.

Especially the egregious. Like you see everyday. People littering, shooting up
and shitting on the sidewalk.

Meanwhile our legislators are passing laws to limit the amount of restaurants
in certain neighborhoods. Or trying to ban companies from having their own
cafeterias.

It's the ideology of 'sounding good'.

Empiricism needs to take its place.

~~~
admax88q
You're the second person I've seen to say "Criminals have more rights than
children"

Where do you get your talking points from?

~~~
manfredo
I can't speak for the above commenter, but in a way street people in SF really
are more free than employed people. If I were to break into a car and steal
stuff I'd get jailed and released a couple days later, or even the same day.
But I'd probably get fired. Whereas someone with no job would get jaled and
released with no real consequences. Because the city refuses to enforce many
crimes (basically, anything short of significant violence) beyond catching and
releasing, the only thing keeping people in line are their employers and
peers. And if someone doesn't have a job and their peers don't care about
committing crimes, then a whole bunch of stuff becomes de-facto legal.

~~~
pteredactyl
I agree. I try not to think about it. Or what I could do for myself and the
community with my tax dollars. Instead of sending them 5000 miles away to DC.
What a joke.

Also not to mention, if you were jailed for some reason, you'd get fired and
probably fined $10,000. If you don't have the money: Well, Welcome to the
streets!

People are so ego-invested in this absurd and hysterical reality. I don't get
it. I will say it seems to be reinforced every minute through our tv media.

For example, sometimes when I speak with someone hysterical (80% of SF and
some of my family now) they'll calm down and we'll have an open rational (non-
ideological) dialogue. After, I think to myself 'ok it's not all lost'.

Then I see them again and they're back to the hysteria. It's like a robot who
forgot their programming.

~~~
emerged
It seems to be a similar sort of addiction as Candy Crush. Hysteria is a kind
of entertainment, always easily accessible.

~~~
pteredactyl
I haven't thought of it that way. That's a good one. It seems to tie into fear
porn.

------
toomanybeersies
In Melbourne, we have a special police force (protective services officers) to
patrol train stations at night.

The anti-authoritarian in my dislikes them, but by all accounts (especially
from my female friends), they're actually great. Their mandate is only to stop
violence and disorderly behaviour, and they're actually super chill. Ticket
inspection and fare evasion isn't part of their purview, which means they're
not just armed ticket inspectors. I've had lost of friendly conversations with
them while waiting for the train. Compare this to Sydney, where they post full
fledged police officers with drug dogs at train stations, which is straight up
fascist.

The PSOs are also really great at helping out with medical emergencies. I
actually see them applying first aid more often than I seem them arresting
people.

I know that HN is generally an anti-police crowd, and I have no idea what the
financial implications would be for getting something like that on the BART
(in Melbourne there's generally 2 officers at each station), but they do
generally make the train stations a lot safer at night. I don't want to wade
too deep into the gun control debate, but it also helps that petty criminals
in Australia don't have guns. Unless you're involved with organised crime,
there's almost chance you'll be a victim of gun violence here.

~~~
umanwizard
I don’t like the police any more than you do, but calling police presence in
train stations “straight up fascist” cheapens the term.

When you call every slightly authoritarian policy “straight up fascist”,
nobody will take you seriously when you denounce _actually_ fascist regimes.

~~~
toomanybeersies
Having police with drug dogs, posted at train stations to catch random people
with personal quantities of drugs is straight up fascist in my opinion.

Drug use crosses socioeconomic lines, yet drug dogs at train stations
(targeted in the poorer suburbs too) ends up unfairly targeting poor people
(who are often minorities), especially as wealthier people tend to drive
rather than take public transport. Send some drug dogs through the bank
offices on a Friday evening and see how much coke you find. Instead they're
busting poor people for having a gram of weed on them.

Personally, I'd rather that they didn't have drug dogs at all, they tend to
victimise users rather than actually stop the root cause of the "problem" (I'm
not a fan of drug prohibition at all), i.e. the dealers and the traffickers.
Drug traffickers aren't going to be transporting commercial quantities of
drugs on the train, they're going to be driving cars. Drug dogs are also
generally ineffective and respond more to their handlers signals than actually
detecting drugs by scent and are therefore susceptible to their handlers
biases, further victimising minorities.

~~~
King-Aaron
I smoke pot, and don't like the idea of being targeted at train stations
because I smoked a spliff the night before while wearing the same sweater. FYI
I am not 'poor' and I do have a small fleet of my own cars, but people with a
small quantity of money behind them a) also like to smoke drugs on occasion
and b) also do use public transport.

Edit: I realize that sounded a bit snide, apologies. I think my point is that
it's not so much a fascist thing, and I agree with the GP that calling the
draconian drug policies fascist does detract from the _legitimately_
scary/quasi-fascist things that are going on. I fear that the more we
misconstrue these kinds of arguments, the harder it will be to make progress.

~~~
toomanybeersies
I guess calling it all-out fascist is perhaps a hyperbole. But it's creeping
authoritarianism.

To me though, having police posted with dogs at train stations just looks
especially authoritarian. Police dogs (whether drug dogs or attack dogs) are
primarily a tool for intimidation.

~~~
King-Aaron
I agree with you tbh. Considering the tremendous false positive rate with
sniffer dogs too, I find the use of them especially hard to justify as
anything other than intimidation.

Got to remember though that when police do big operations like that, they
_may_ also often be looking for one specific target/individual, but have to
use a blanket approach to apprehend them. So while you may be caught up in the
"random" checks, they may just be using it as a facade to catch a truly
dangerous person.

------
metildaa
Does BART have unlimited liability for the actions of others? Probably not.

Should BART have more security at problem stations? Sure.

Most of this sounds like a failure of the local police though, transit
security is generally not going to handle reporting assault and theft, as
those are the jurisdiction of the municipality where the crime occured.

~~~
tdumitrescu
AFAIK bart police are actual peace officers:
[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bay_Area_Rapid_Transit_Polic...](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bay_Area_Rapid_Transit_Police_Department)
I remember i used to see ads of theirs years ago, prominently displaying their
150K starting salary.

Anecdotally, i agree that riding bart has felt sketchier the past few years. I
generally ride from SF to Lake Merritt or 12th St Oakland.

~~~
Judgmentality
> prominently displaying their 150K starting salary

I thought that seemed high, but they are still paid quite well.

[https://www.glassdoor.com/Salary/Bart-Police-Officer-
Salarie...](https://www.glassdoor.com/Salary/Bart-Police-Officer-
Salaries-E13156_D_KO5,19.htm)

~~~
olivermarks
There are lots of BART security job vacancies, probably because no matter how
high the salary it would be a very dangerous job. This is similar to the
social situation in NYC when the Guardian Angels were formed, but what is
extraordinary is how wealthy the bay area is today compared to 1980's New York
area...
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guardian_Angels](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guardian_Angels)

~~~
nradov
Law enforcement is not even on the top 10 list for most dangerous jobs. I
suspect there must be other reasons for the high vacancy rate.

[http://time.com/5074471/most-dangerous-jobs/](http://time.com/5074471/most-
dangerous-jobs/)

~~~
JetSpiegel
This statistic might be completely different on BART officers only.

------
xvedejas
I have heard it said that BART is still safer, despite these recent crimes,
than walking the streets that BART travels under.

~~~
notyourwork
Suppose it depends on what street you are referencing.

------
geerlingguy
It doesn't seem quite that bad in St. Louis, but the Metrolink has a lot of
similar characteristics.

Just the fact that all the platforms are open (there are no turnstiles, so you
don't even need to pay a cent to board a train or lurk on a platform, any time
of day) seems like a major contributing factor.

And in my recent rides, maybe 1/5 times would there ever be a person checking
tickets.

It's definitely a chicken-and-egg problem here—nobody wants the lines expanded
if their only experiences are dodgy and slow at best. And it doesn't help that
the local news seems to highlight all the public transit crimes on a weekly
basis (especially on slower news weeks).

~~~
grogenaut
Having gotten a failure to pay ticket on metro the first time I ride for not
understanding the system I can tell you it's quite steep $90 in 2000. And it
only takes the officers about four stops to walk the whole train. That's a lot
of rides without a fare ticket to pay for the one penalty ticket.

Also you can often get tickets from other riders. I get asked for my stubs
every time I'm in town

------
dracodoc
How about putting cameras in train?

------
projektir
I will need to ride the BART this Friday and this thread is not giving me much
confidence...

~~~
pageandrew
If you’re riding during rush hour you will be fine. During the work day
(between rush hours) is also okay, but less people around.

Riding early morning or at night is when the real trouble generally happens.

------
yellowapple
Funny that I'm reading this as I'm riding BART.

------
millzlane
My self defense is someone else's responsibility...

------
jeffdavis
Maybe they should issue more concealed carry permits in bay area counties.
It's wrong for the police to simultaneously neglect your protection and also
prevent you from protecting yourself.

~~~
jopsen
It's probably safer to just carry a little extra cash and pay off the
robbers..

~~~
krackers
I don't think that's a good idea. Seeing you have some cash on hand is a
signal that you are more well-of and they might be more incentivized than they
were previously to take your bag/wallet/etc. Basically there's no incentive
for them to stop at just taking that extra cash when they can take that _and_
whatever else they were planning to.

~~~
trevyn
The trick is to dramatically throw all the cash into the air and run. :)

~~~
twblalock
While you are in an enclosed train car? Good luck getting away.

------
corndoge
"Sibia caught a glimpse of a revolver in the man’s waist, and let go. The
assailant slipped out just as the train doors closed behind him, he said."

I was under the impression that concealed carry permits are extremely
difficult to get in the vast majority of California?

~~~
rayiner
Criminals don’t bother to try and get permits.

~~~
userbinator
"If you outlaw guns, only outlaws will have guns."

~~~
diogenescynic
And yet the countries that make obtaining guns more difficult are still much
safer. It’s almost like if you rigorously regulate guns and have strict
background checks, you can dramatically reduce gun violence... see Japan or
Switzerland as proof where you can still own a gun but they don’t have mass
shootings like we do here. And no, mental illness isn’t the issue. We have
roughly the same amount of mentally ill as other countries, it’s the easy
access to funds that explains the 10x increase in gun violence.

~~~
rayiner
That doesn’t prove anything because those countries were also much safer than
the US before they had gun control.
[https://sites.nationalacademies.org/cs/groups/dbassesite/doc...](https://sites.nationalacademies.org/cs/groups/dbassesite/documents/webpage/dbasse_083892.pdf)
(page 2).

Until 1978, you could buy handguns and automatic weapons in Canada without a
license. You could buy rifles without a license until the 1990s. But the gap
in US-Canadian homicide rates was the lowest in 1960. And the gap was largest
during the first 40 years of the 20th century, before Canada required
licensing and background checks.

Australia shows the same pattern. It introduced major gun control in the
1990s. But the gap in US-Australian homicide rates actually shrank after that
time:
[https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c6/Gu...](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c6/Gun_Deaths_by_Year%2C_Australia%2C_America.pdf/page1-640px-
Gun_Deaths_by_Year%2C_Australia%2C_America.pdf.jpg)

~~~
diogenescynic
Australia didn’t have a single mass shooting after they imposed strict gun
control in the 90s. You’re just ignoring the evidence that’s right in front of
you. Gun control works—period.

~~~
dang
Please don't cross into personal attack, regardless of how wrong you think
another commenter is.

We've had to ask you this more than once before.

[https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html](https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html)

------
slater
From June/July

~~~
microbial
so?

