
Apple Censoring the News App - reaperhulk
https://langui.sh/2019/03/26/apple-censoring-the-news-plus/
======
jmull
These discussions are pretty weird.

It's _China_ that is censoring the news here. But for some reason we're mainly
blaming Apple for it? It's makes no sense.

And what the heck does the API Apple uses to determine location have to do
with it? If Apple had the choice, they would use _no_ API to censor the news.

Anyway, for the people who really are worried about censorship (I am) it's
worth understanding and acknowledging what's actually going on here. This
problem is not an Apple problem and if you try to treat it like one, that's
actually worse than doing nothing at all since it draws attention away from
the actual problem.

(There are Apple problems, of course, but this isn't one of them.) This is a
big China problem.

~~~
xkcd-sucks
Apple is famous for fighting anything which might associate the brand with a
degraded user experience. So shipping an apple branded product which tacitly
accepts censorship seems like tacit complicity, which is the most cynical type
of complicity.

~~~
titanix2
Apple ships products that conform to local regulations and this is absolutely
normal. Do you think entreprises should choose which laws they comply to and
which they don't? Good luck financing your state with that because I'm sure
they'll all opt out of tax regulations...

~~~
int_19h
They shouldn't conform to local regulations that are contrary to their
publicly stated company ideals. One way to do so is to not do business in
countries where it's impossible to conform.

~~~
DonaldPShimoda
> One way to do so is to not do business in countries where it's impossible to
> conform.

Keep in mind that we're talking about China. If Apple pulls out, there's no
shortage of Chinese companies that the Chinese government is buddy-buddy with
who will happily go all-in on spying on consumers.

Apple obeys Chinese regulations, but it's reasonable to assume (based on their
actions in the US) that they don't enjoy it. Which means they're not going to
go out of their way to give the Chinese government more than they need to.
This is potentially in contrast with the Chinese technology companies who
would be more than happy to provide extra data to the government.

Apple is able to hold their position in China only because they comply with
regulations, but in so doing they provide consumers with a better option than
going through any of the Chinese government-friendly companies. Yes, it sucks
that they have to comply, but in a scenario where Apple either chooses or is
forced to withdraw from China it is the Chinese consumers who will suffer the
most, because they will be left with only government-friendly alternatives.

~~~
int_19h
It's an ages-old argument: "if I won't do this evil thing, somebody else will,
and they will be worse at it". It also makes you complicit in and responsible
for whatever you help with, though.

But I don't have a problem with Apple here, because they did exactly that -
they're not providing their News app/service in China at all, rather than
providing a censored version where they would be implementing the censorship.
Yes, this means that local competitors will offer their own apps, likely
censored even more. And it's up to Chinese citizens to hold them to account.
But when it comes to American companies, it's our job to do so.

------
acdha
> To accomplish this censorship Apple is using a form of location
> fingerprinting that is not available to normal applications on iOS. It works
> like this: despite the fact that your phone uses a SIM from a US carrier it
> must connect to a Chinese cellular network. Apple is using private APIs to
> identify that you are in mainland China based on the name of the underlying
> cellular network and blocking access to the News app.

Does anyone know if this claim is true? I would have assumed this is as simple
as serving the not allowed response to any request from a Chinese address
range, and it seems like it would be easy to test using a VPN.

(In general, while I don't approve of censorship this seems like an odd hill
to die on — the problem is that a repressive government is still sovereign and
there aren't exactly many options for a company with such extensive business
ties other than complying with that government's laws within its borders)

~~~
panarky
_> while I don't approve of censorship ..._

I always believed in absolute freedom of expression. I cheered Google when
they prioritized values over revenues and abandoned mainland China because of
censorship requirements.

But maybe I need to update my beliefs based on new evidence.

When free expression enables disinformation campaigns, when false rumors get
amplified into mob violence, when stochastic terror organizes online, maybe
the side effects of unlimited free expression are too severe for a modern
civilization.

Is it completely unreasonable to think that there might be something to learn
from China's policies of censorship and social control?

~~~
PlasticTank
In my opinion this is one of the saddest and most dangerous trends of modern
times, the desire to give up any and all freedoms in exchange for perceived
safety. We've welcomed 1984 with open arms.

~~~
panarky
_> the desire to give up any and all freedoms_

That's not what I said. I said "there might be something to learn".

Maybe my belief in unlimited free expression at any cost isn't the best way.

Must we must allow terrorist recruiting and incitement to violence and state-
sponsored disinformation campaigns and targeted intimidation?

It's a slippery slope fallacy to assume that any restriction inevitably leads
to relinquishing "all freedoms".

~~~
int_19h
The problem is that slippery slope is not a hypothetical argument in this
case. You can be jailed in France, today, for wearing a pro-BDS t-shirt,
because it's "hate speech". At the same time, for all the political censorship
that Europe has compared to US, it doesn't seem to be doing anything to stem
the rising popularity of their extremist parties.

([https://theintercept.com/2017/08/29/in-europe-hate-speech-
la...](https://theintercept.com/2017/08/29/in-europe-hate-speech-laws-are-
often-used-to-suppress-and-punish-left-wing-viewpoints/))

The problem, as usual, is that there's no "we" in "must we allow". You're not
actually the person who's going to be doing the allowing - best case, if you
live in a non-corrupt democracy, you'll be voluntarily giving that authority
to somebody else; and not even to a specific person, but a role. If the bounds
of that authority are too specific, it becomes useless in practice because
it's easy to avoid its scope. If they are too vague, and the precise bounds
are left to the discretion of the enforcers, it just gives them another
channel to manifest their biases.

------
sgjohnson
China is their biggest market. Would be a bit stupid to get your products
banned from your biggest market over something so simple.

Not that I agree with Chinese practices.

~~~
toastking
I think it's more that in a device that's so locked down this is a bad
precedent. Cowtowing to governments is detrimental for everyone.

~~~
briandear
> Cowtowing to governments is detrimental for everyone.

So should Apple News allow Nazi stories in Germany? Should they allow stories
disparaging the Thai king in a Thailand? Should they allow speech that creates
an immediate threat to a person in the US? Should Apple pay taxes? Should
Apple prohibit child porn?

All of these are examples of “kowtowing” to governments. What’s the difference
between kowtowing and following the law? How can someone expect Apple to pay a
“fair share” of EU taxes but then expect them to not follow Chinese law? If a
company boycotts countries based on ideology, pretty soon every country gets
boycotted over something or another. There are exactly zero perfect countries.

~~~
danso
According to the TFA, Apple (or any foreign company) is not obligated to block
traffic at the device-level in the manner described by TFA:

> _This censorship occurs despite the fact that when in China a cell phone
> using a foreign SIM is not subject to the firewall restrictions (all traffic
> is tunneled back to your provider first), so Google, Twitter, Facebook, et
> al all work fine on a non-mainland China SIM even though you’re connected
> via China Mobile or China Unicom’s network_

~~~
esmi
This is only partially correct. One has to have a foreign sim and have data
roaming turned on (which implies paying the higher rate). The author didn’t
state if they did both.

[https://www.freedomsurfer.com/firewall/](https://www.freedomsurfer.com/firewall/)

------
saagarjha
> Apple is using private APIs to identify that you are in mainland China based
> on the name of the underlying cellular network and blocking access to the
> News app. This information is not available via public APIs in iOS
> specifically to improve privacy for users.

Regardless of the merit of the argument of Apple censoring News in China, this
is a stupid argument. For Apple, there is no private API: they wrote the thing
themselves; for privacy they prevent third-party applications from accessing
it. What would you like them to do, remove the API entirely or open it to
third-party developers?

~~~
black_puppydog
remove it. there, happy? :)

~~~
saagarjha
No, because now my phone doesn't work. I can't send text messages, I can't use
most of the hardware, I can't change basic settings…none of these can function
without the APIs that Apple currently keeps private. It's obvious that there
should be functionality to say set the device's passcode–but it's also pretty
clear that normal apps should _not_ be able to access this.

------
skywhopper
There's not enough information here to think this is a major scandal. Does
Apple News respect your home region everywhere in the world except in China?
Or is this just the typical international content licensing tarpit? I would
blame copyright hell before I would assume Apple is kowtowing to China
somehow. Given that China apparently allows foreign mobile devices an
exception to the Great Firewall network blocks, it seems unlikely the Chinese
government is specifically targeting the Apple News app for being blocked. I'm
struggling to see how it makes sense to think of this as "censorship" rather
than just "software and content licensing are both complicated and terrible".

------
black_puppydog
Perhaps one day we can stop talking about "feature-gating" (and "geoblocking"
for that matter) and just treat these censorship mechanisms as the attacks on
the freedom on the web that they are.

~~~
Gorbzel
That'd be the best move here. If the author wants Apple to operate according
to their (US-based) ideals in China, that's a perfectly valid argument to
make. So make it.

Instead, the author does some overly verbose and hot take dance to propagate
clickbait, which is then shockingly submitted to HN. Call this garbage for
what it is.

------
sbr464
They also censor or at least filter out content they are not comfortable
sharing on their iTunes movie platform. I’m not sure how appropriate the word
censor is here in this context. They are a private company that can choose
which content they release in which area, or at all, especially to adapt to
local customs or laws. Similar to how you can get rice and a chicken leg at
McDonalds in Indonesia, but can’t in America.

------
Angostura
I remember back in the day when UK Newsagent WHS Smith kept pulling Private
Eye off its shelves if there was content it didn't like.

------
sricola
Just noticed in the screen shot that the poster's wifi was on. In which case
they had a Chinese IP and it wouldn't work. Did the OP test on cell network
only?

------
jeffrogers
Any chance this is enforcing a content licensing restriction?

------
s3r3nity
_China_ Censoring Apple's News App

FTFY

------
icyzhao
I lived in U.S. for eight years and found out about this fact after I came
back. It's deeply concerning, the fact they don't block news app but block
news feeds in China is weird.

I used to use News App with U.S. sim card, but the restriction got tighter and
tighter.

------
buboard
isn't it possible to identify the location from the IP alone?

------
enitihas
Google gets a whole different level of scrutiny on HN wrt their business
practices than any other company it seems. Apple can do whatever the Chinese
government asks, yet almost all comments in this thread are aimed at
justifying their innocence using business and sovereignty arguments. However,
the yet to launch dragonfly project gets huge opposition. Are there any other
companies getting the same level of scrutiny.

~~~
Pharmakon
I’m pretty sure that if Apple had Google’s privacy-busting business model
they’d be loathed too. If as a bonus they also worked on drones with the
Pentagon you’d have even more hate. As it stands I’m yet to see an Apple
article here that isn’t filled with people talking about the “Apple tax” and
trying to define them as a monopoly.

~~~
enitihas
Microsoft works with the DOD and gets minimal scrutiny. Also all the posts
about apple tax also have similar number of posts talking about the google
tax, even though google atleast allows people to download apks and install,
like the route fortnite took.

~~~
Pharmakon
Microsoft is one of the more loathed companies for what they’ve already done,
never mind what they do now. I’m not sure where you’re getting “minimal
scrutiny” from, except as another attempt to mitigate an understandable
reaction to Google’s “winning” combination of hypocrisy and dominance.

------
hello_friendos
Why pretend like China isn't the one censoring this.

~~~
KerrickStaley
The issue is that normally, Chinese censorship does not apply to travelers
with a foreign cell phone and foreign SIM. However, the way Apple implemented
censorship for News+ goes beyond the norm, such that even foreign travelers
are impacted.

It's not a good thing for Apple to be innovating on ways to enforce Chinese
censorship (although if I understand correctly, it doesn't matter—China could
already censor roaming cell traffic, they just choose not to).

~~~
iliketosleep
> Chinese censorship does not apply to travelers with a foreign cell phone and
> foreign SIM

Really? Travelers with a foreign cell phone and foreign SIM are excepted from
Chinese censorship laws? I find this very difficult to believe. It's more
likely that censorship laws are simply more difficult to enforce on travelers,
which doesn't make it any more legal.

~~~
powerapple
"difficult to believe" leads you to your own conclusion rather than
researching on how it works...that's how internet works, sadly

~~~
iliketosleep
While China, even as a tourist, you are still subject to Chinese laws and
regulations. Just because a rule isn't always strictly enforced doesn't mean
it's nonapplicable. Any unsubstantiated claims to the contrary are "difficult
to believe"

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malshe
The title mentions News+ but the article is all about News App so this is not
specific to News+

~~~
sctb
Thanks! We've replaced that in the headline here.

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floren
Interesting that this was flagged for a minute there but came back. Did the
mods manually unflag?

~~~
Titanous
I vouched it after it got flagged dead which resurrected, but it hasn't
returned to the front page.

~~~
sctb
It ended up flagkilled again, so we've just turned off the flags to give it a
shot.

~~~
floren
Just out of curiosity, did you "collapse" this comment thread since it's just
a meta discussion, or is it somehow getting affected by user voting while
still remaining at +1?

~~~
sctb
The former!

~~~
floren
Makes sense, thanks!

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ycombonator
Apple pisses when China growls. I personally think their claim of being
privacy guardians is a bunch of PR & marketing BS. Didn’t they also handover
the encryption keys for iCloud in China to the Communist Regime ?

