
After WikiLeaks Revelation, Greece Asks I.M.F. To Clarify Bailout Plan - randomname2
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/04/03/business/after-wikileaks-revelation-greece-asks-imf-to-clarify-bailout-plan.html
======
pdkl95
If you're interested in Greece and how they've been screwed b the ECB, I
recommend a video[1] I posted[2] a few days ago. It's a discussion from about
a month ago with Mark Blyth (prof econ at Brown) and the former Minister of
Finance Yanis Varoufakis. They discuss "negotiating" with the ECB, brexit, and
the "least worst" ways to save the EU.

[1]
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iMk6aVsl8Rs#t=66](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iMk6aVsl8Rs#t=66)

[2]
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11398625](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11398625)

(If you think Greece's economic situation is anything other than a bailout for
the major banks of the EU, then you haven't been paying attention)

~~~
5ersi
This is a common leftist propaganda we see here in EU - that others are guilty
for Greece's situation, and that poor Greece is a victim of shady capitalists
(banks). The reality is somewhat different: they have put themselves in that
situation by overspending since mid-70s. Not only that - they have been
systematically lying to the world about their financial situation: fist when
they were entering the EU and then in 2010 when they "discovered" that they
are in a much worst situation than previously reported to the creditors (read
the part about Eurostat trying since 2004 to improve reliability of Greece-
provided financial figures).

You should read the facts by yourself:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_government-
debt_crisis](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_government-debt_crisis)

Also to debunk the biggest lie, the one where Greece's economic situation is
basically bailout for EU banks, let me state this facts:

1\. In 2011 there was about €46bn in Greece debt held by EU banks (excluding
Greece internal banks), of which €9.4bn was held by French and €7.9bn by
German banks. By 2015, Germany, France and Italy held roughly €130bn of total
€323bn debt. So EU state members lend Greece about 5x the money that their
banks had been exposed to in bad Greece debts. Hardly an EU-bank bailout. 2\.
Also, in 2011 EU states required commercial lenders (including their own
commercial banks) to accept a 50% write-off, before they started using
taxpayer money to start refinancing and extending loans to Greece.

What really pisses me off is that Greece expects other EU-countries to provide
free money to them (by writing off debts or providing well-below-market debt
refinancing), while at the same time they only collect half of their tax
revenues due. If they only collected the same level of tax revenues as other
EU-member states, they would be in no trouble.

~~~
kaonashi
> What really pisses me off is that Greece expects other EU-countries to
> provide free money to them

This is how every functioning federal system works today. Surpluses are
recycled from the higher output regions into the lower output regions.

------
mmaunder
[https://wikileaks.org/imf-internal-20160319/](https://wikileaks.org/imf-
internal-20160319/)

------
antman
tldr: International organizations refuse to take responsibility for the
failure of the measures they imposed, but in the fear of BREXIT in June
postpone GREXIT after July. In the mean time every party blames the others,
leaking information to the press.

------
randomname2
Tsipras' response to the leak:

[https://twitter.com/wikileaks/status/716400800499679232](https://twitter.com/wikileaks/status/716400800499679232)

Mostly the Greeks take offense to the IMF, per Bloomberg [1], "considering a
plan to cause a credit event in Greece and destabilize Europe."

Also: "Acc to #IMF leak, conf call was held March 19, when Velculescu was
still in Athens, Hilton Hotel. Makes you wonder if Hilton is bugged." [2]

[1][http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-04-02/imf-
discus...](http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-04-02/imf-discussed-
pressuring-germany-on-greek-debt-wikileaks-says)

[2]
[https://twitter.com/YanniKouts/status/716226465910665216](https://twitter.com/YanniKouts/status/716226465910665216)

------
norswap
I really wonder what would have happened if Yannis Varoufakis had had his way
and a Greek default had happened last year.

Like I have literally no clue, but some part of me wonders if it would have
been better than the drawn out mess that was sure to ensue once bailout was
agreed upon.

------
aburan28
I think the bigger question to be raised is whether or not spying on all
parties involved in diplomatic or fiscal "negotiations" is an activity that
the free world should be partaking in

~~~
iammyIP
'free world' might imply that such negotiations are in public interest since
they affect lots of people and therefore have to be made available to the
public, so they are not to be held in secrecy to begin with.

------
return0
Greece actually wants the IMF to leave, but i'm pretty sure that's not a good
idea. Not sure if this "leak" is of any big surprise to anyone.

------
junto
Can anyone explain to me why it is in the IMF's interest to see Greece, and as
a result the EU, collapse? They spread to want to bankrupt Greece, but truly
don't understand the logic.

~~~
disgruntledphd2
The IMF want to get the countries they work with on a "sustainable" path. This
typically involves burning bondholders, writing down loads of debt, and
privatizing everything that isn't nailed down.

Because what has happened in the EU is a mish-mash of the euro area
governments, the ECB and the IMF, they have not done things the usual way.

Hence, they see that Greece's current debt is unsustainable and want to write
down loads of it to allow the economy to grow again.

The Germans fear that doing this would cost them lots of money, and encourage
prolifigate behaviour in other states (like Italy and Spain).

Hence, the memo and these fights (which have been going on since before the
last bailout).

~~~
ZoeZoeBee
The IMF does not want to write down Greeces's loans in the least bit. The IMF
is normally the first creditor to be repaid and Greece is the only first world
nation to miss a payment.

>Meanwhile, missing the IMF payment will cut Greece off from new loans from
the organization.
[http://www.nola.com/business/index.ssf/2015/06/greece_become...](http://www.nola.com/business/index.ssf/2015/06/greece_becomes_1st_developed_c.html)

According to the leaked conversation the IMF understands the Greek's will not
be able to repay their debt with the current agreement and lack of economic
growth. Unfortunately for the IMF the Greeks do not seem likely to accept
futher concessions, without an 'ominous event'...

>THOMSEN: But that is not an event. That is not going to cause them to... That
discussion can go onfor a long time. And they are just leading them down the
road... why are they leading them down the road? Because they are not close to
the event, whatever it is.

VELKOULESKOU: I agree that we need an event, but I don't know what that will
be. But I think Dijsselbloem is trying not to generate an event, but to jump
start this discussion somehow on debt, that essentially is about us being on
board or not at the end of the day.

THOMSEN: Yeah, but you know, that discussion of the measures and the
discussion of the debt can go on forever, until some high up.. until they hit
the July payment or until the leaders decide that we need to come to an
agreement. But there is nothing in there that otherwise is going to force a
compromise. Right? It is going to go on forever...

VELKOULESKOU: They are not getting close. What is interesting though is that
they did give in...they did give a little bit on both the income tax reform
and on the.... both on the tax credit and the supplementary pensions. They are
doing something but it is very small...

[https://wikileaks.org/imf-
internal-20160319/transcript/page-...](https://wikileaks.org/imf-
internal-20160319/transcript/page-7.html)

The IMF is scared of setting a precedent to loan out more bad money when other
countries in Europe are soon to face the dilemmas of Greece.

Members of the EU itself have begun to question the IMF's role in the Troika
governing the EU, made up of the European Commission, European Central Bank
and the IMF.

The Banks are not your friend

------
glasz
i have to say. i actually have some respect for the greek people putting up
with the shinanigans tsipras, that clown, is pulling off.

------
atorralb
Greece is right, it should follow the steps of Ecuador or Iceland since the
debt does not seem to be legit.

