
3M Response to Defense Production Act Order - antman
https://news.3m.com/press-release/company-english/3m-response-defense-production-act-order
======
tssva
No where in the linked statement does 3M say they will not comply. They point
out potential issues that the order may cause but do not say they won't
comply.

~~~
xenospn
I was under the impression that the law's specific purpose was to make them
comply, so they don't really have a choice.

~~~
netllama
What's the actual penalty if they refuse?

~~~
ceejayoz
[https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/15/700.74](https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/15/700.74)

The maximum penalty provided by the Defense Production Act is a $10,000 fine,
or one year in prison, or both.

The government may also seek an injunction from a court of appropriate
jurisdiction to prohibit the continuance of any violation of, or to enforce
compliance with, the Defense Production Act, this part, or an official action.

~~~
Simulacra
Hrm... I wonder if the government would go so far as to arrest the CEO.

~~~
milsorgen
It would be a nice change of pace to see. They do seem to weather a lot of
legal storms better than most other Americans.

------
awinder
Title should be “3M Response to Defense Production Act Order” and remember out
there: only you can prevent title editorialization

~~~
dang
Right. Submitted title was "3M refuses US request to cease N95 respirator
exports". A moderator changed it.

Submitters who break the site guidelines by editorializing that badly
eventually lose their submission rights on HN. So there's that.

[https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html](https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html)

------
ceejayoz
> In addition, ceasing all export of respirators produced in the United States
> would likely cause other countries to retaliate and do the same, as some
> have already done. If that were to occur, the net number of respirators
> being made available to the United States would actually decrease.

This is a very good point. We _really_ don't want China cutting us off right
now.

~~~
animalnewbie
[https://www.bbc.com/news/world-
europe-52092395](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-52092395)

[https://www.scmp.com/news/china/diplomacy/article/3077428/ne...](https://www.scmp.com/news/china/diplomacy/article/3077428/netherlands-
recalls-600000-face-masks-china-due-low-quality)

Some claim the masks are deliberately faulty

~~~
Analemma_
"Factories are skipping QC and sacrificing quality in favor of volume, and
also scammers are trying to cash in on the skyrocketing demand" is _way_ more
likely than "China is making deliberately faulty masks". Come on now.

~~~
animalnewbie
You haven't seen the videos maybe? People spitting in masks (in China,
purportedly) and doorknobs and elevator (in Europe, purportedly). Not a proof
and not directly related but I wouldn't put it past China. It shocks me when
they claim they have 0 new corona virus cases. If they're lying about
something as basic as this, what else are they lying about.

~~~
belltaco
There's been multiple people in the US coughing on lettuce, lick produce etc.
Does that mean you wouldn't put it past America that masks exported to Canada
will be laced with covid?

------
loufe
Forgive me but I don't feel like the article in any way actually states they
refuse to honour the government's demand. What part of the article mentions
that?

~~~
throwaway_jobs
Government has signed an Act prohibiting 3M from exporting N95 masks from the
US, what you read isn’t an article it is a 3M press release stating 3M will
not comply with the Act and continue to export N95 masks

~~~
ceejayoz
> it is a 3M press release stating 3M will not comply with the Act

Where does this press release state that?

It says the literal opposite:

"We look forward to working with FEMA to implement yesterday’s order."

~~~
throwaway_jobs
That is corporate speak for if you don’t allow 3M to export from The US to
Canada then next time those 10M masks aren’t coming from 3M China to the US
but 3M China direct to 3M Canada.

Anyway there is a lot more information available as to what’s going on with
Canadian orders and 3M Canada. Put it this way Canada has ordered 65M and 3M
Canada and Canada both refuse to say how many 3M is providing in that order.

[https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.politico.com/amp/news/2020/...](https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.politico.com/amp/news/2020/04/03/3m-warns-
of-white-house-order-to-stop-exporting-masks-to-canada-163060)

------
RegnisGnaw
The US won't be the first or the last to do this. I mean read the article
below: 68 countries already ban the export of masks.

[https://globalnews.ca/news/6769162/canada-medical-
supplies-c...](https://globalnews.ca/news/6769162/canada-medical-supplies-
coronavirus/)

Here the EU has banned the export of masks unless the country's government
approves (which is what Trump is doing)
[https://www.politico.eu/article/coronavirus-eu-limit-
exports...](https://www.politico.eu/article/coronavirus-eu-limit-exports-
medical-equipment/)

Also not mentioned Russia and Taiwan also banned all export of masks.

~~~
NicoJuicy
This is incomplete in many cases!

Eg. From Germany :
[https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-03-09/germany-f...](https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-03-09/germany-
faces-backlash-from-neighbors-over-mask-export-ban)

> We’re not categorically against exports but want to understand what happens,
> because previously it was so that masks went not where they were most needed
> but where most was paid.

They are literally handling the problems the US/Trump is causing right now.

I expect more on HN

------
sudoaza
So the free market fails yet again and everyone is doing proteccionism, social
programs and socializing necessary goods. Nice to see what really works.

------
rdtsc
> We look forward to working closely with the Administration to implement
> yesterday’s DPA order.

They will comply at least that’s what their letter further down says

------
psychlops
Apparently, the US has the nice problem of a competing market whereby states
and hospitals bid up the prices to that legally ambiguous area called "price
gouging".

I presume it's much simpler to avoid being accused of gouging and selling to
countries which pay prices according to supply and demand.

------
mediamag
The pulp that 3M uses to produce the n95 respirator is grown exclusively in
British Columbia, CANADA and is milled by a company in Victoria, British
Columbia, CANADA

~~~
RegnisGnaw
I'm no expert, but I am sure the only pulp used in a N95 respirator is the box
they put the 10 or 20 masks in. They can easily replace that with a bag.

~~~
NicoJuicy
Correct, you are not an expert

~~~
RegnisGnaw
Here's the document on the 3M N95 8210 which is a common N95 mask:
[https://multimedia.3m.com/mws/media/1425070O/3m-particulate-...](https://multimedia.3m.com/mws/media/1425070O/3m-particulate-
respirator-8210-n95-technical-specifications.pdf)

• Straps – Thermoplastic Elastomer

• Nose Clip – Aluminum

• Nose foam - Polyurethane

• Filter – Polypropylene

• Shell – Polyester

• Coverweb - Polyester

Here's another document from Honeywell stating the main material is "flexible
non-woven polypropylene fabric" [https://www.honeywell.com/en-
us/newsroom/news/2020/03/n95-ma...](https://www.honeywell.com/en-
us/newsroom/news/2020/03/n95-masks-explained)

Here's the link to Wikipedia and I quote "The N95 mask requires a fine mesh of
synthetic polymer fibers, also known as nonwoven polypropylene fabric,[5]
which is produced through a highly specialized process called melt blowing
that forms the inner filtration layer that filters out hazardous
particles.[6]"
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/N95_mask](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/N95_mask)

And you are an expert? Basic Google just backed me up.

~~~
NicoJuicy
No, i am not an expert and didn't made a single statement because of that.

I don't know the answer. The only thing I do know is that a medical/surgical
N95 mask is different from a standard N95 mask.

This would be reason enough to undermine your claim, according to me.

But as stated, I'm not an expert. A friend+client of mine in construction also
has N95 masks and those are not valid for use in the hospital, he said.

Also basic Google backed me up :)

Ps. Thanks for trying to back up your claim with valid sources ;)!

~~~
RegnisGnaw
Care to provide a basic Google source that says N95 Surgical Respirators are
made from pulp?

Okay, let me provide you another source or two.

Here's the 3M 1860/1860S N95 Surgical Respirator. FDA approved for hospital
use in the US (also the standard one used). Approved by Health Canada in
Canada. Approved by TGA in Australia. This is the light blue one you see on
the news.

    
    
      * Straps: Braided Polyisoprene
      * Staples: Steel
      * Nose Clip: Aluminium
      * Nose Foam: Polyurethane Foam
      * Filter: Polypropylene/Polyester
      * Shell: Polypropylene
      * Coverweb: Polypropylene
    

[https://multimedia.3m.com/mws/media/1538979O/3m-disposable-r...](https://multimedia.3m.com/mws/media/1538979O/3m-disposable-
respirator-1860-1860s-technical-data-sheet.pdf)

Here's the 3M 1804/1804S N95 Surgical Respirator
([https://multimedia.3m.com/mws/media/1547881O/3m-anz-psd-
heal...](https://multimedia.3m.com/mws/media/1547881O/3m-anz-psd-healthcare-
respirator-and-surgical-mask-1804-s-technical-data-sheet.pdf)). Also approved
by FDA for hospital use. Same with Health Canada and Australian TGA. This is
the white duckbill type you see on the news.

    
    
      * Straps: Polyisoprene
      * Staples: Steel
      * Nose Clip: Aluminium
      * Filter: Polypropylene
      * Coverweb: Polypropylene

~~~
NicoJuicy
It seems to be the fibre, but I'm not enough acquainted with materials to know
where or what.

The wording seems to be that is literally used in surgical masks:

[https://www.vancouverislandfreedaily.com/business/nanaimos-h...](https://www.vancouverislandfreedaily.com/business/nanaimos-
harmac-mill-works-to-fill-doubled-pulp-order-for-medical-masks-and-gowns/)

> K10S pulp is made from western red cedar that produces a soft fibre that
> makes it suitable for the final products made from it.

“It’s been tweaked over the years to come up with the right formula that
allows it to go into the medical supplies,” Sampson said.

Your source indeed says: these materials are used.

But it never says they are listing all the materials that are used.

It could be that they mention it because those materials can touch the skin. I
don't see anything that mentions the filtering technique/materials inside of
those masks.

I also don't see how the materials are tweaked. So I don't think it's as easy
to read the brochure and believe that they mention everything on it.

I guess the Polypropylene fibrids in the filter contains the K10S ( = the pulp
)

An indication to support this can be found here:
[http://www.freepatentsonline.com/8172035.html](http://www.freepatentsonline.com/8172035.html)

( Search for K10S in the text and read the entire surrounding text)

As stated before, I'm not an expert.

~~~
RegnisGnaw
K10S pulp is definitely used in surgical masks. This is a fact and I admit it.

So far I've shown that K10S is not used in N95 respirators which is the
original statement.

I've shown evidence in good faith and you have not. None of your links makes
reference to N95 Respirators.

Please provide a direct reference that K10S pulp is used in N95 Respirators.

~~~
NicoJuicy
Not everything is black or white...

What you said now is not what you said before. You literally claimed it was
just the bag, lol:

> I'm no expert, but I am sure the only pulp used in a N95 respirator is the
> box they put the 10 or 20 masks in. They can easily replace that with a bag.

And I repeat:

> “It’s been tweaked over the years to come up with the right formula that
> allows it to go into the medical supplies,” Sampson said

Not every company is going to put their "secret sauce" online.

Just send an email to 3M to ask the question instead of trying to guess it.

[https://www.3m.com/3M/en_US/novec-us/support/contact-
us/](https://www.3m.com/3M/en_US/novec-us/support/contact-us/)

Google can't solve everything. As an alternative, you could ask it on
StackExchange.

Then Google can pick it up for you and you can have your nice link :p

And also, you are looking for "surgical masks N95 K10S" in Google. I googled
the root question and that is: where is K10S used in Polypropylene , but you
don't seem to grasp/accept it.

I already explained why it would be better to look that up...

~~~
jgcc
This may be the pulp connection to the Polyurethane filter. Filtering face-
piece respirator having a face seal comprising a water-vapor-breathable layer
Patent Assignee 3M INNOVATIVE PROPERTIES COMPANY (St. Paul, MN, US)

[http://www.freepatentsonline.com/9408424.html](http://www.freepatentsonline.com/9408424.html)

In discussing a way to take water vapour from exhaled breath away from the
filter surface. If this is the case while the polyurethane is the primary
material the pulp fibre is applied to it as a layer which may not appear in a
spec sheet.

"In some embodiments, a face seal may consist only of a water-vapor-breathable
layer and a wicking layer (that is located on the rearward side of at least a
portion of the water-vapor-breathable layer), with no other layers being
present. In other embodiments, other layers may be present in the face seal.

There are several general approaches to providing such a wicking layer, which
approaches will be described herein in a non-limiting manner. In one approach,
a fibrous wicking layer (e.g., a non-woven web, a woven or knitted fabric, and
so on) can be comprised (e.g., generally, substantially, or completely) of
fibers with “moderate” hydrophilicity. Materials that might be suitable for
such fibers include e.g. certain nylons, polyesters, cellulose acetates, and
so on. In another approach, a fibrous wicking layer can be comprised of
relatively hydrophobic fibers (e.g., polyethylene, polypropylene, natural
rubber, and so on), but with the web incorporating some portion of relatively
hydrophilic fibers (e.g., cellulosic fibers, acrylic fibers comprising a
significant amount of hydrophilic co-monomer, and so on). That is, any
suitable blend of hydrophobic fibers and hydrophilic fibers can be used to
arrive at the optimum balance of properties. In a variation of such
approaches, a fibrous wicking layer can be comprised of relatively hydrophobic
fibers but may further comprise hydrophilic particles of any suitable
composition (e.g. hydrocolloids, WOOD PULP, starch particles, and so on).
Conversely, a fibrous wicking layer can be comprised of relatively hydrophilic
fibers but may further comprise hydrophobic particles of any suitable
composition."

------
nacho2sweet
Going to be hard to make those 3M masks when all the pulp used to make them is
produced in Canada and we stop selling it to you cause you won't sell us
masks.

[https://www.vancouverislandfreedaily.com/business/nanaimos-h...](https://www.vancouverislandfreedaily.com/business/nanaimos-
harmac-mill-works-to-fill-doubled-pulp-order-for-medical-masks-and-gowns/)

~~~
Mountain_Skies
The US has ten times the population and ten times the economy. Canada would
have ten times the pain if it decided to get into an economic war with the US
and would still not get the masks it wants. The US however does have plenty of
pulp production that can be diverted into whatever use is most important at
the moment.

This should be a wake up call to Canada to stop being so dependent on
exporting commodities. It's been this way for my entire life and has been a
constant complaint in Canadian economic circles but for some reason Canada
doesn't seem to want to diversify. Maybe this will change that attitude.

~~~
sudosysgen
I don't know that this would be the case.

Pulp production is not a nameless commodity, it needs to be up to a certain
spec for surgical masks, for example. Canada is the supplier for a great many
US companies. Sure, the US could try to produce that speficic spec, but it
would not be easy and would take precious weeks that the US cannot spare. If
it could, production would just increase for respirators, but this has to be
done instead because it takes too much time. And in that time, Canada will
likely be able to set up production for the masks, actually. If I remember
correctly 3M Canada does make filter media, so the expertise is there. It
isn't rocket science either, it just takes time.

In a full scale economic war between the US and Canda, at least all Canadians
will still have water and electricity.

------
Simulacra
Oh boy, oh boy, oh boy! Here we go! Can't wait to see how this plays out.

------
jdkee
Nationalize them.

~~~
AnimalMuppet
Because they're right, but in a way you don't want to hear, so you want to
make it so they can't say the truth that you don't like?

And what would "nationalizing" them look like, anyway? You realize that
they're a multinational corporation, right? You could nationalize the US part,
but you'd lose the rest of them. Even solely for purposes of the respirators,
the result might not be better than what they're giving you now.

~~~
jdkee
Tell that to my wife who is going in to treat COVID patients in the ICU this
Sunday. I’ll give you her phone number and you can leave her a voicemail
explaining why exporting N95 masks while she can’t get one is OK.

~~~
AnimalMuppet
I said your "solution" would not help. You responded with outrage about your
wife. But if your solution won't help, _then it won 't help your wife_.

The best I can do is wish her the best. I'm sorry.

------
FpUser
So much for friendship/partnership. I hope next time US asks Canada to
participate in their never ending quests in middle east they'll get nice f..
you in return.

~~~
Mountain_Skies
Canada should never participate in military action it feels is unwarranted,
friends or not. If Canada has been going along with never ending quests just
because the other countries involved are "friends", then it is morally
bankrupt for doing so.

In the end though, Canada and every other country in the world should realize
that the United States doesn't have friends, it has interests.

~~~
hourislate
I'm curious whether you have noticed the incredibly serious situation in NYC
and New Orleans and many other areas of the USA. At the moment they have more
people infected of Covid-19 in just NYC than Canada has people infected across
the whole country. Almost 1900 dead in just NYC.

Do you not feel this is serious enough of a situation that it requires all the
masks this American company makes to be sent to these hot spots? Should the US
not try to save its own citizens lives above trying to be friends with Canada
or South America?

Why doesn't Canada manufacture it's own masks?

~~~
FpUser
Same reason US does not manufacture a basillion things they import from China.
But yes Canada should learn to be more strategic.

