
Tesla's mass firings spread to SolarCity - whatok
https://www.cnbc.com/2017/10/25/tesla-firings-spread-across-solarcity-employees-blindsided.html
======
11thEarlOfMar
1,200 of 33,000 employees amounts to 3.6% of the work force. This level of
action, 1 in 25 employees, gives managers an opportunity to release employees
that looked good in the interview but did not meet expectations. Whether Tesla
conducted this in a proper manner is open to debate and perhaps details will
emerge if/when any former employees pursue Tesla in court. But any company
needs to address the inevitable hiring mistakes and I don't see evidence that
Tesla is doing any more than that.

~~~
Bartweiss
> _I don 't see evidence that Tesla is doing any more than that_

If the lack of promised performance reviews is accurate, that's the obvious
issue - it implies a labor force decision disguised as a performance decision.
This is a pretty common move in e.g. game development, so it certainly isn't
unthinkable.

The point about total workforce size is well taken, though; this still seems
like it could be as simple as "times are tough so we're cutting more
stringently than we might otherwise".

~~~
SRasch
Would you say 3,6 % is that stringent though? I remember GE under Welch fired
10 % of the lowest performers every year, that seemed kind of stringent. But
Tesla is fast-hiring and acquiring, so seem to have a larger need to fix
hiring-errors than GE. At the end of 2015 they had only 14,000 employees! In
light of that, 3,6 % seems completely reasonable to me. Low, even.

Concerning the performance review: would expect that after acquisition,
SolarCity would adjust to Tesla's performance standards. So even if they were
based on prior performance reviews, still seems like a reasonable action and
level to me.

As much as I try to squint, I'm having troubles seeing the smoking gun here.

~~~
rtpg
I thought the concensus now was that Welch's leadership under GE was not good.

There's been a lot of rants about the utility of stack ranking and this sort
of "fire the worst performers because everyone else is better" attitude.
Namely wrong incentives.

You have John Carmack and a clone of John Carmack working on your game engine.
You have stack ranking. Which one should you let go during review season?
Should you hire some extra people to protect your good people?

~~~
kamaal
That worked at GE largely because they were getting rid of the gold watch
retirement crowd. That worked in the past as companies had people who worked
there all life, and most of the time late in career they would come to work,
do nothing all day and go home.

Jack Welch was simply doing long pending layoffs.

~~~
gaius
_That worked at GE largely because they were getting rid of the gold watch
retirement crowd_

You mean, getting rid of people who had been promised deferred compensation,
before having to make good on it? That was the deal with old-skool companies,
remain loyal for 30 years then ease your way into retirement. GE got the
loyalty then shafted those guys.

~~~
kamaal
The economic set ups across the world changed. You can't fault companies for
doing what was needed.

In India many old people got shafted both the ways being asked to take
voluntary retirements and being subjected to high inflation rates at the same
time.

~~~
gaius
_You can 't fault companies for doing what was needed._

Well, you can, or no obligation means anything anymore. Why should a company
even pay you your wages if things are a little tight this month, by that
logic?

~~~
kamaal
Salary is an obligation in return for your services. The company doesn't owe a
person a job for passing time at office.

Its just people woke up to the fact that socialism wasn't a feasible model
anymore.

~~~
gaius
OK, a company decides it won't pay your pension anymore then - identical
scenario.

~~~
kamaal
Its not an identical scenario. Companies don't pay pensions in most countries.
These largely get paid through Pension funds, which by and large investment
money in Government backed securities.

These are debt obligations at the level of a country. On 'your' investments.

This is totally different than saying a person should be given a job, even if
they don't work.

~~~
gaius
_Companies don 't pay pensions in most countries_

Ummm airlines and automakers in the US do, or did. Lots of companies/countries
are the same.

------
frgtpsswrdlame
_Sources said that HR department representatives told staff in one office they
were being let go due to problematic "conduct with peers." When questioned, an
ex-employee said, HR declined to specify any details about the alleged poor
conduct, which had never been previously discussed._

<tin foil hat> Is this pre-empting a union push?

~~~
MikeTheGreat
I remember a while back some .com company laid off a bunch of their employees
(more than 40%? 50%?). Firing that many people at once triggered a set of 'lay
off' laws, which required certain behavior from the company (such as giving
the employees X days notice, etc, etc).

This is pure speculation, but I wonder if Telsa is trying to do last-minute
layoffs while avoiding whatever 'lay off laws' there are by claiming that each
individual is totally being fired for totally legit individual reasons, for
sure, yep.

~~~
sjg007
The Department of Labor usually investigates these things.

~~~
brewdad
This is not your father's Department of Labor. I see little chance that any
enforcement will happen.

------
seibelj
Couldn't Tesla / SolarCity just said, "Hey, company didn't do well, sorry,
here's 2 weeks severance"? Why do this whole "bad performance review"
nonsense.

~~~
aslkdjaslkdj
Because the stock price would drop and Tesla wants to do another round of
funding (aka issue more stock) soon.

~~~
skgoa
The stock price has dropped by $64 since the start of the week BTW. It was at
$325 when I checked earlier today and came from a high of $389.

~~~
dtparr
That's not correct. $389 is its all-time high. It closed at ~$345 on Friday
and opened ~$350 on Monday.

~~~
kunaalarya
it's literally $325 right now so what's not correct?

~~~
dtparr
skgoa said "The stock price has dropped by $64 since the start of the week
BTW."

It has dropped ~$25 since the start of the week. It's down $64 from its all-
time high.

------
20years
This doesn't really surprise me. A few years ago we had lead generation
software that catered to the solar industry. We had some decent sized clients
and it did really well for about 2 years. Once the tax credits started going
away and the power companies started killing off their rebates, a lot of these
solar companies were not able to survive.

One of our larger clients who was heavily funded went bankrupt this year and
many of the smaller/mid sized clients have folded within the last year too.

It is risky basing too much of a business on tax credits and rebates.

~~~
matt_wulfeck
I’m surprised. At the rate PV has been falling these subsidies are probably
negligible (federal rebate withstanding).

I purchased PV because the cost with a 20-year loan comes out to be 13c kWh,
meanwhile PG&E charges 29c kWh. And the loan interest is tax-deductible.

~~~
sgc
What company did you use? I have received 3 quotes and none make much sense.

~~~
matt_wulfeck
Solarcity. Highly recommended.

~~~
sgc
Weird. I had them come by for a quote and they were about 25% more than the
second closest bid. I never did the full math. This was on a 5kW installation.

~~~
matt_wulfeck
My email is in my profile if you want my details. Our system is 6.8kwh. I
didn’t go with solarcity because they were the cheapest.

------
calvinbhai
I’ve been with a bunch of smaller companies and have seen layoffs as well as
been laid off before/during and after mergers.

Not sure why this should be surprising in the case of Tesla + Solar City.

~~~
mhermher
It's mostly of note precisely because they are not layoffs according to Tesla.
They were full on fired with cause. It's strange to say the least. What would
trigger a mass firing like that. It's unusual.

~~~
city41
I'm a SolarCity customer and absolutely despise them. Their customer service
makes Comcast look like a saint. I can't help but cross my fingers this is a
sign Tesla might be doing something about it. But I'm not getting too hopeful.

~~~
sgc
I had them come by for a quote. I never bothered to put their numbers in to
compare to other offers because it was a terrible experience. I have no idea
if they are even working on changing that, or just pivoting to industrial
installations.

------
SubiculumCode
I am pretty pro-union. However, in the case of Musk's enterprises, where there
is this larger goal that is finally seeming to become possible, I am torn. I
feel that anyone that works at these places should know and be a zealot for
the Cause...but I suppose that Elon Musk probably should share his stakes with
them a bit more, in that case.

edit: I believe workers should be treated fairly, but I also want us to go to
Mars. If 1 prevented 2, I would be torn. Why should this earn a negative vote?

~~~
CobrastanJorji
> edit: I believe workers should be treated fairly, but I also want us to go
> to Mars. If 1 prevented 2, I would be torn. Why should this earn a negative
> vote?

I assume because this same argument, if you took it to ridiculous extremes,
could be used to justify a whole range of terrible shit. Watch:

"I believe workers should not be enslaved, but I also want us to go to Mars.
If 1 prevented 2, I would be torn."

"I believe Musk should not torture underperforming workers, but I also want us
to go to Mars. If 1 prevented 2, I would be torn."

I don't think you are actually willing to torture or enslave people so that
humanity can get to Mars, but the way you constructed your argument leads in
that direction, which is probably why it's being met with resistance.

~~~
SubiculumCode
I am not trying to create an axiom meant to generalize to all cases. I am just
willing to be a little less pro-union (and this point has gotten lost here
apparently) than I am usually when it comes to THIS set of companies, for very
particular reasons. That is because I tend to think of these companies (at
least SpaceX) more as causes than as companies. When you willingly work for a
cause, you expect these things. If you are fighting to treat victims of war
near battlefields, you might get be indanger, and the organization might not
be able to do much about it, or provide you the kinds of benefits that would
be deserving in a perfect world.

~~~
lovich
Noble causes don't tend to be for profit entities. If SpaceX was a charity or
not for profit I'd agree, but it's a business and it is hurting the workers to
accumulate more capital for the owners. It's goal of getting to Mars is nice
but a separate set of moral concerns as long as it is attempting to maximize
profit

------
xvikram
While I do commend Musk's role in getting change within industries, it can't
be argued that his biggest strength over the last decade has been only PR (and
I mean only!). Do some digging and see how he chooses to release news bits,
diversions etc and holds on to the mastermind billionaire ideal that people
bestowed upon him. Any other company making false promises ("Auto"pilot),
providing factually incorrect data (Model 3 "mass" production), mass firings
("performance" layoffs) would not survive in the world. Musk just dumbs down
science to his cult and they swallow it up. Remind you of anyone else?
(hmmmm... Trump - different audience of course but similar cult following
characteristics).

Tesla responding to lawsuits by former employees claiming they suffered racial
discrimination and anti-LGBT threats (in The Guardian): “There is no company
on earth with a better track record than Tesla.”

Trump, March 2016: "Nobody knows more about trade than me."

Don't think any other person/entity give out such absolute statements
routinely.

------
smaili
> SolarCity employees say they were surprised to be told they were fired for
> performance reasons, claiming Tesla had not conducted performance reviews
> since acquiring the solar energy business.

Is it possible the _performance reasons_ cited may have been in reference to
performance in sales rather than performance in work? Otherwise it does seem
odd to dismiss over employee performance if reviews has yet to be conducted by
Tesla.

------
msoad
Call layoffs "firing" to look good in stock market and not have to pay
severance packages... Elon is smart for sure

~~~
jcadam
I dunno, my Tesla stock just took a big dump. Maybe I should sell.

------
protomyth
Does anyone know if the reason Tesla gave is interfering with the newly fired
collecting unemployment? There are certain types of firing that would stop
someone from being able to collect unemployment.

------
Animats
At Solar City, sales must be down if they're closing entire offices.

~~~
sandstrom
or redundant if they're using their Tesla stores to sell solar panels after
the merger

------
yuhong
I wonder if the ideas of centralised layoffs based on performance reviews is
even a good idea at all, especially for anything other than manual labor and
the like.

------
Dirlewanger
>Some of the firings came in big group employee meetings.

WOW. Great place to work. Yet gives a shit when their stock is like 60% up
YTD, right? /s

------
mtgx
If there was one division at Tesla that deserved lay-offs, surely it was
SolarCity?

I remember how everyone was talking about what a bad move Tesla made in
acquiring SolarCity, because the company was a mess and unprofitable.

I've also heard stories about how aggressive and pushy SolarCity's sales
people were with customers, which ended-up giving the company an increasingly
worse reputation.

~~~
ghostbrainalpha
Solar City was doing fantastic here in Las Vegas. There sales people were BY
FAR the best when they came door to door.

But Warren Buffet's power company changed the laws last year and basically
screwed everyone who had solar. We have completely disincentivized putting
solar panels up.

Now the company doesn't do well, and no sales people come door to door from
any company. If you are putting up solar in Las Vegas this year, its because
you are an extreme environmentalist and willing to pay the penalty that comes
with it.

~~~
Siecje
How did the laws change?

~~~
ghostbrainalpha
[https://www.reviewjournal.com/business/energy/solarcity-
stop...](https://www.reviewjournal.com/business/energy/solarcity-stopping-
nevada-sales-installations-after-puc-ruling/)

>>The PUC “has effectively shut down the rooftop-solar industry and taken the
extraordinary step to punish over 12,000 existing solar customers, including
schools, with exorbitant fees in what appears to be an attempt to protect the
profits of the state’s largest utility. All three members of the PUC, who
voted unanimously to change the rules, were appointed by Governor Sandoval.”

>>Rive said: “Most disturbing is the PUC’s decision to retroactively sabotage
existing solar customers’ investments by changing the rules on them. The
Nevada government encouraged these people to go solar with financial
incentives and pro-solar policies, and now the same government is punishing
them for their decision with new costs they couldn’t have foreseen. These
actions are certainly unethical, unprecedented, and possibly unlawful. While
the rest of the country embraces a clean energy future, Nevada is moving
backwards.”

~~~
thomaskcr
Net metering isn't even a US law thing, it's a physics law thing. Just basic
physics should tell you that selling power for the same price you buy it
doesn't make sense due to heat loss in the lines.

If you want a battery buy one, don't try to use the grid as a giant battery.

~~~
fiter
Potentially the net metered electricity doesn't have to travel as far. Maybe
it goes to the house next door.

That said, it makes sense to steeply adjust the rate if the net metering
starts causing long distance flows.

------
thejerz
Has anyone else noticed a PR smear campaign against Tesla?

~~~
glibgil
Anyone else? _You_ haven’t even noticed it. Unless, you want to cite some
examples

------
montyboy_us
SpaceX, Tesla, and SolarCity: ponzi schemes that have a little tech behind
them and pull on our heartstrings.

~~~
ctdonath
Ponzi schemes don't produce major technological advancement.

SpaceX made reusable rockets a thing.

Tesla made great cars with bleeding-edge EV technology.

SolarCity made "solar roof" a viable & aesthetic product.

All three are still thriving on a _lot_ of tech advancement.

Long-term success remains to be seen in three very difficult industries, but
current performance is certainly not the facades of Ponzi schemes.

~~~
ForHackernews
> SpaceX made reusable rockets a thing.

The space shuttle was reusable. It just wasn't cost-effective. So far, SpaceX
hasn't proven their resuable rocket is cost-effective either.

> Tesla made great cars with bleeding-edge EV technology.

Model X ranked dead last in reliability:
[https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/consumer-reports-
survey-m...](https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/consumer-reports-survey-marks-
tesla-model-x-as-least-reliable/)

Model S owners have also complained about reliability and build quality
problems.

I don't know much about SolarCity as a business, but the Tesla buyout has a
lot of sketchy signs about it
[https://www.fool.com/investing/2017/10/18/solarcity-
teslas-s...](https://www.fool.com/investing/2017/10/18/solarcity-teslas-solar-
boondoggle.aspx)

I don't necessarily think Musk's companies are literally "Ponzi schemes", but
they are less impressive than the hype surrounding them, and they all rely
heavily on government subsidies.

I just wish HN would take the same critical eye to Musk that it does toward
other business luminaries. It seems like far too many people are easily
seduced by "Mars colony! Hyperloop! Rocket around the world!"

~~~
unethical_ban
Comparing the shuttle glider to the boosters of the Falcon is completely
inaccurate. Compare the SRBs and the main booster.

And yes, I think SpaceX has been working constantly to reduce cost of reuse of
their boosters. Do YOU have proof, given their track record of improvements,
that they are anywhere near as expensive as the Shuttle in terms of launch
costs?

------
pdimitar
\- It's not mass firing. It's not even 4% of the workforce.

\- So, employees were "surprised". As most people who are fired, ever, in any
company and epoch. How is this news at all?

\- Recalling 11,000 units might not at all be connected with layoffs. Implying
otherwise is a cheap yellow press journalism.

\- "Citing fears of retaliation from Tesla". Yeah, because Tesla _definitely_
is known for pursuing people like they're some kind of a cold-war era vengeful
spy agency. Sure.

\- Some layoffs came 2 weeks early. Wow. Scandalous!

\- Somebody made the mistake of over-stating how much personnel a new office
is gonna have. Surely, this is news-worthy, right?

\- Exact number of people laid off is unknown so hey, I have a genius idea,
let's listen to the former employees who are now negatively biased against the
company. I mean, they can't be wrong, could they?

And then the company tries to minimize the chance of former employees suing
them. That's relatively normal if somewhat scummy, sadly it's a pretty classic
state of affairs. Hardly exclusive to Tesla, though.

This "tech reporter" would do well to work with paparazzi. It'll match her
journalistic expertise.

~~~
gowld
"Mass layoff" is defined by the United States Department of Labor as 50 or
more workers laid off from the same company around the same time.

~~~
pdimitar
Might be legally correct. Still gives the wrong impression because most people
aren't lawyers. Should outline percentage, not absolute numbers, IMO.

~~~
tabeth
If the unemployment rate increased 3.6% tomorrow, I guess you wouldn't think
it's a big deal, right? After all, it's not even 4%! The lack of sympathy
people show these days. Sheesh.

~~~
pdimitar
It's one company out of hundreds of thousands.

You did not address all of my criticisms of the article which are logically
sound -- you only cherry-picked one emotional point.

~~~
tabeth
> It's one company out of hundreds of thousands.

> You did not address all of my criticisms of the article which are logically
> sound -- you only cherry-picked one emotional point.

I'm not attempting to address whatever point you were trying to make.

I'm glad you replied the way you did, since that was my point.

~~~
pdimitar
The fact remains this was a sensationalist piece.

People lose jobs every day. Happened to me 20+ times in the last 10 years and
was hard. I don't see value in comments like yours saying "you need to be more
compassionate". What you are missing is that I am -- but that doesn't help
anybody.

And, again, the article was of extremely low quality and it seemed to have
been pushing an agenda.

