
The Meditations of Marcus Aurelius - mindcrime
http://classics.mit.edu/Antoninus/meditations.html
======
julian37
This quote has been floating around for a while (I first came across it in the
early 90s if memory serves). According to [1] Marcus Aurelius never wrote it,
but I still think it's a great little quote:

“Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not
care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you
have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to
worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived
a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones.”

[1] [http://skeptics.stackexchange.com/questions/6999/did-
marcus-...](http://skeptics.stackexchange.com/questions/6999/did-marcus-
aurelius-say-live-a-good-life)

~~~
wolfhumble
Interesting way to hedge your bets, but to me it seems absurd that the clay
should dictate the rules of the potter.

~~~
rapala
Why should one worship a god that can't tolerate a pagan man that nevertheless
lived a good life? If a god wants the man to be virtuous, why can't the man
expect the same from the god?

~~~
wolfhumble
A god implies that something is created(c). That god could be good or bad
based on c's standards, but the god would still be the definer of the rules if
it wished to do so. How would c even know if it is accepted or rejected based
on goodness? And if it is so, how would c know that it lives a good life? By
whose standards? [Update spelling]

~~~
slurgfest
Even if I could create sentient beings, this wouldn't imply the power to
declare what is good or true by fiat. 2 + 2 = 4, massive objects attract each
other gravitationally, and it's morally problematic to put children in ovens
for being Jewish even if a _maximally_ powerful alien or wizard said
otherwise. These things cannot be changed by any fiat, and being very powerful
doesn't make it any more possible.

~~~
emiliobumachar
A very powerful being could change gravity, but I agree with you on the rest.

~~~
chacham15
No, the gravitational force would still be there, he might just overcome it
with a different force.

------
tokenadult
The Meditations of Marcus Aurelius has often been recommended to me as the
source of the earliest pro-homeschooling quotation found in Western
literature:

"From my grandfather's father, [I learned] to dispense with attendance at
public schools, and to enjoy good teachers at home, and to recognize that on
such things money should be eagerly spent."

<http://learninfreedom.org/notable_quotes.html>

That does reveal a cultural difference between East and West, as the oldest
Chinese quotation to speak to the issue of family education of children (a
much older quotation from Mencius) specifically claims that education of
children by their own families is a bad idea, because injecting the teacher
relationship into the family wrecks family relationships. I respectfully
disagree with Mencius, having homeschooled my half-Eastern, half-Western
children while living both in Taiwan and in the United States. It's
interesting that Marcus Aurelius was already concerned about "public schools"
at a time when "public schools" just meant "schools outside one's home" rather
than "schools funded by taxes and operated by state employees."

~~~
robbiep
It would pay to bear in mind what SORT of education occurre in roman schools:
For the most part it was rote memorisation of the letters and the sounds they
made to give literacy and very little else. A roman education was not a 'Greek
education', rhetoric and logic were not taught.

Mike Duncan's 'a history of Rome' podcast was very informative on this and
though Marcus Aurelius would have had private tutors for these things that is
really what he was likely talking about when he says to have in the home

~~~
east2west
Did you mean Roman public education only taught basic literacy? For
aristocrats, pupils were taught Greek and Greek literature early on since
later republic era. Julia Caesar's mother went so far as to have a Greek slave
accompanying Caesar from early childhood so he grew up bilingual. Marcus
Aurelius was as comfortable in Greek as he was in Latin. His extensive
training rhetorics is obvious from his writing. He wrote "Meditations" in
Greek, because that was the language of philosophy.

------
dccoolgai
Not sure why this is on here really, but I will say I picked this up about a
year ago and started reading it and was absolutely blown away by how relevant
it still is 1,000 years later. ...Think about how grounded you have to be to
turn away from the life of material fulfillment that is offered to you as a
Roman Emperor and instead live a life of philosophy and the mind. Wise dude,
and it's worth reading what he wrote.

~~~
evoxed
If you enjoyed Meditations please keep a lookout for anything by Epictetus.
Depending on the publisher titles may vary, but _Discourses_ is common (iirc
they were notes compiled from his many stories and teachings). You won't be
disappointed.

~~~
lizzard
Seneca's essays are also great!

~~~
jlujan
Yes, I would read Seneca first or I highly recommend "A Guide to the Good
Life: The Ancient Art of Stoic Joy". Then reading Epictetus and Aurelius.
Henry David Thoreau and Ralph Waldo Emerson can also be added to the reading
list in my view.

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jedc
The most accessible guide to Stoicism that I've ever found was recommended by
Derek Sivers, and written by William Irvine "A Guide to the Good Life".

[http://www.amazon.com/Guide-Good-Life-Ancient-
Stoic/dp/01953...](http://www.amazon.com/Guide-Good-Life-Ancient-
Stoic/dp/0195374614)

I really highly recommend it myself. A bit of history of Stoicism, but also a
lot of practical advice about how to put it into practice in modern times.
(Always going back to the key Stoic thinkers.)

~~~
flog
Agreed that this is a great book to introduce Stoicism. This, and Seneca's
works which I've read since, have been life changing for me - I think it
should be required reading for all entrepreneurs, if not everybody.

~~~
mattvanhorn
Add Epictetus to that list, as well.

------
hvass
Following Ryan Holiday's recommendation (<http://www.ryanholiday.net/reading-
list/>), I highly, highly advise you to go with the Gregory Hays' translation
(<http://amzn.to/XQSimT>)!

I have a copy of Long's and it doesn't do it justice.

If you want to dive deeper consider Pierre Hadot's 'The Inner Citadel: The
Meditations of Marcus Aurelius" - <http://amzn.to/YuWyvh>

I am also fond of these YouTube lectures on the Meditations:
<http://youtu.be/nLD09Qa3kMk>

~~~
ecmendenhall
I second this. But don't take my word for it. Here is 5.24 (one of my
favorites) translated by Long:

    
    
      "Think of the universal substance, of which thou hast a 
      very small portion; and of universal time, of which a short
      and indivisible interval has been assigned to thee; and of
      that which is fixed by destiny, and how small a part of it
      thou art."
    

And by Hays:

    
    
      "Remember:
      Matter. How tiny your share of it.
      Time. How brief and fleeting your allotment of it.
      Fate. How small a role you play in it."

~~~
grannyg00se
Very diffeernt styles but I'm not sure how I would choose one over the other.
I don't know which is closer to the original.

Actually, I'm not even sure that's a consideration I'm interested in. I might
be more interested in a translation that most efficiently communicates the
intended message.

~~~
thisrod
A literal translation, the Stoics having doubtless written in formal Latin, it
being so concise, might appear more as riddle than prose to English speakers.

~~~
stan_rogers
Koine (vulgar or Hellenist) Greek, actually, but the point still stands.

------
undoware
Suppressing rueful grin here -- I fled a philosophy PhD to run a startup, and
it's shocking how often the degree turns out to be practical -- if not in
substance ( higher-order logics, paradoxes of game theory, history of set
theory, common fallacies ) then in style (the framework-vs-lib debate is a
weird recap of the continental-vs-analytic divide, IMHO.)

Aurelius is recommended reading, but he needs to be cut with some Epicurus.
They start from the same position but reach very different conclusions. I like
to think of Aurelius as being noneuclidean epicureanism. :)

------
mbrock
Geeks, nerds, tech people: we seem to have ended up with a fair amount of
global influence.

I know a lot of us are into -- or getting into -- some kind of "traditional
wisdom," even if we're not traditionally religious.

For me, Buddhism resonates strongest, so I'm walking that path.

Whichever path, by walking it, you affect the world. Living ethically is a
great gift; it makes you a source of safety and peace.

And that shines through in your work, and many of us have livelihoods with
global effects. That's a powerful fact.

~~~
dkarl
Stoicism resembles Buddhism in its focus on practical psychology and mastery
of the mind through reason. The Stoics do not deny the reality of the physical
world and the ego, but they teach that unhappiness comes from attachment to
undependable things, things outside one's own control. The Stoic road to
happiness comes from training one's mind, through the application of reason,
to care about nothing except one's own ethical actions, and the ultimate
measure of a philosopher consists in successful application of this training,
not in knowledge or argumentation.

There are glaring differences between Stoicism and Buddhism, of course. The
Stoic definition of ethical behavior is not rooted in compassion like Buddhism
is, for example, and the Stoics did not create a practice of mental training
anywhere near as well-elaborated as Buddhist meditation.

------
dfc
I am going to run afoul of the common thinking...but this is one of the
reasons I really value my liberal arts degree. I was exposed to a wide variety
of disciplines and forced to spend time digesting them. You can certainly walk
yourself through a philosophy of ethics class but a lot of the value was
having the professor walk us through things, guide the resulting discussion
and ensure a certain level of rigour.

My favorite philosophy reading was Plato's Republic.

Text: <http://classics.mit.edu/Plato/republic.html>

Discussion of politics and ethics: <http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/plato-
ethics-politics/>

Plato generally: <http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/plato/>

The last two links are from the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy. I highly
recommend it if you are interested in philosophy. <http://plato.stanford.edu/>

------
smky80
I have to recommend the newer translation by Gregory Hays, which makes the
book immensely more readable. I got through it in an evening.

One thing that pops out of the Hays translation that isn't so obvious at first
glance in the Long translation, is that _Meditations_ wasn't a philosophical
treatise at all, but rather a series of philosophical "Notes to Self" -- the
sorts of issues he was struggling with at the time.

When you think about how you'd like your life to be different, it gives you a
little bit of perspective to realize that the Emperor of the Roman Empire
appeared to be primarily preoccupied with (1) death, and (2) how much he hated
his coworkers (the Imperial court). Reflecting on death, he mentions if you
lived thousand lives, it would be just be the same stuff over and over again.
How true.

------
rokhayakebe
To get a better understanding of the Meditations of Marcus Aurelius, a king,
you should read The Discourses of Epictetus, a slave, who has truly affected
the philosophy the of former. They have a deep relationship although they did
not live in the same era. Marcus was a king who lived like a slave, and
Epictetus was a slave, although freed later, who lived like a king.

------
sherr
For a discussion of the philosophy of Stoicism, the BBC's In Our Time program
is very good :

<http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p003k9fs>

"Melvyn Bragg and guests discuss Stoicism, the third great philosophy of the
Ancient World."

Angie Hobbs is always worth hearing, as is this program. It's a reason to pay
the license fee.

------
jacoblyles
If you enjoy this, you should also pick up a copy of the Davie translation of
Seneca's "On the shortness of life"[1]. Seneca is another stoic, and a much
better writer than Aurelius.

"Nothing concerns the busy man less than the business of living: nothing is so
difficult to learn"

"There is, therefore, no ground for thinking that, because of his white hair
or wrinkles, someone has lived too long: he has not lived a long time, but
existed a long time"

Epictetus's "handbook"[2] is also very good. You will get a lot out of both.

[1][http://www.amazon.com/Dialogues-Essays-Oxford-Worlds-
Classic...](http://www.amazon.com/Dialogues-Essays-Oxford-Worlds-
Classics/dp/0199552401/ref=sr_1_1)

[2][http://www.amazon.com/Handbook-Epictetus-HPC-
Philosophical-C...](http://www.amazon.com/Handbook-Epictetus-HPC-
Philosophical-Classics/dp/0915145693/ref=sr_1_1)

------
Alex_MJ
I love Meditations. I actually use it as a journalling tool.

I have about four copies of Meditations sitting on my bookshelf. What I really
enjoy about reading it is that at any point, I can pore through a chapter,
find something that "hits" and is relevant to something going on in my life,
and I'll process it in pen, on the page, whether I actually agree or not with
the line. I write down the date whenever I pick up the book, so it's a kind of
diarying reflective process.

In my experience, reading it more than a chapter or two at a time is a bit of
a waste. Too many ideas going in one ear and out the other - I hit two or
three and that's all that's going to stick in my head.

------
jjsz
Ah, classics..the patience and study of the philosopher's common book and
their grounded theses revealed. A best seller or a mention in lecture halls
reassures that you've evolved into someone unique or you're a man with minimal
words who aggregates the ordinary and his niche topic into art.

I've still haven't found someone who open sourced their common book journey,
their resources, and resources' resources, as linked data.

Thanks for all these reading lists comments though. I REALLY appreciate it!

------
zkoch
Another great translation of these is by two brothers, David and C. Scott
Hicks. It's called The Emperor's Handbook[1], and is an attempt to translate
them in a way that is less literal and more "in the spirit" of what Aurelius
was trying to convey. I definitely suggest it.

[1][http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0743233832/ref=wms_ohs_prod...](http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0743233832/ref=wms_ohs_product_img)

------
epynonymous
i wonder how true the translation is to the original text. nevertheless,
marcus aurelius was an extremely intelligent and well-learned man. i
particularly liked book 1, his thanks to rusticus:

From Rusticus I received the impression that my character required improvement
and discipline; and from him I learned not to be led astray to sophistic
emulation, nor to writing on speculative matters, nor to delivering little
hortatory orations, nor to showing myself off as a man who practises much
discipline, or does benevolent acts in order to make a display; and to abstain
from rhetoric, and poetry, and fine writing; and not to walk about in the
house in my outdoor dress, nor to do other things of the kind; and to write my
letters with simplicity, like the letter which Rusticus wrote from Sinuessa to
my mother; and with respect to those who have offended me by words, or done me
wrong, to be easily disposed to be pacified and reconciled, as soon as they
have shown a readiness to be reconciled; and to read carefully, and not to be
satisfied with a superficial understanding of a book; nor hastily to give my
assent to those who talk overmuch; and I am indebted to him for being
acquainted with the discourses of Epictetus, which he communicated to me out
of his own collection.

this screams out to me a man with principles and integrity and perhaps the
reason why the roman civilization was so successful, the level of reasoning
and education is astounding.

note that i live in china now (for the past 6 years) and find that there's a
lack of general scruples because the environment is rife with corruption,
greed, deception, cheating. but as the saying goes, when in rome, i find
myself adapting to these circumstances in order not to get burned, so it's
really, really nice to read these thoughts. i'm not saying ancient rome wasn't
filled with similar things, and who knows if marcus was a man of moral fiber
or just talked the talk, but surely i'd like to believe that his uprightness
got him to where he was.

------
bravura
On Amazon, there is a free Kindle version of Meditations.

Here is the URL that worked for me:

[http://www.amazon.com/Meditations-
ebook/dp/B0082XJGRK/ref=sr...](http://www.amazon.com/Meditations-
ebook/dp/B0082XJGRK/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1359967270&sr=8-4&keywords=meditations%27)

------
rlamptey
So I'm wondering, If humans can create things that did not exist (computers,
mobile phones, cars) etc, to solve problems they had, will it be too far
fetched to assume that we were also created by someone/something more
intelligent to do something?

~~~
userulluipeste
My guess is "to form a higher collective awareness"

------
ramblerman
I don't really see the value of translating this into archaic "thy, thou and
hast" english.

Have there been any more recent translations. I could understand reading it
(untouched) in the original language. But if you're going to translate it
anyway...

~~~
jscn
There are more recent translations, but they're not in the public domain. Take
a look on Amazon if you're keen.

------
hkmurakami
Free Kindle ebook: <http://www.amazon.com/Meditations-ebook/dp/B0082XJGRK/>

~~~
pascal_cuoq
And to stop Michael Hart from spinning in his grave, the Project Gutenberg
link: <http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/2680>

EDIT:

His overall outlook in the project was to develop in the least demanding
format possible: as worded in The Chronicle of Higher Education, to him, open
access meant " open access without proprietary displays, without the need for
special software, without the requirement for anything but the simplest of
connections."

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_S._Hart>

------
contingencies
More thought provoking stuff without the stoic fluff:
<http://www.accesstoinsight.org/>

~~~
civilian
Stoicism is like Buddhism without the sitting meditation fluff.

I'm halfway through Meditations, and I do find that there are similarities.
But when you look at intense practice of stoicism vs. buddhism, they promote
different goals. Buddhism encourages you to abandon a normal life to
dissociate yourself so you don't have to be reborn. Stoicism seems to be
neutral on what to actually do with your life, besides the broad "be a good
person and grow yourself" aspect.

Oh, and your vinegar is sour. My vinegar rocks.
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vinegar_tasters>

------
c10b10
For those of us that have ebook readers.
<http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/2680>

------
Havoc
I'm actually more curious why this link hits the top of HN right now. Its been
available for many many years already. What changed?

~~~
mindcrime
I'm the guy who submitted this, and I can't even explain why it's at the top.
I mean, I'm not saying it _shouldn't_ be.. I wouldn't have submitted it if I
didn't think it were of interest. But I didn't expect so much of a reaction.

Anyway, I don't think anything has "changed" I think it as just a case of
somebody taking the initiative to post this, and it just happening to be
somewhat timely (there was another thread discussing stoicism earlier) and
being of interest to a broad cross-section of HN readers. _shrug_

------
lotsofcows
Ha, my greatest takeaway from reading Marcus Aurelius was "All is vanity" - a
good one for the entrepreneurial crowd...

------
pteredactyl
It'll be interesting to see when HN gets into Political Philosophy : )

------
nacker
This is so strange - I feel a disturbance in the Force!

Hackers are getting into Stoicism now? The world really is coming around to
points of view that I thought were my individual peculiarities. Fantastic!

Couple of links to contribute something other than my amazement:

<https://sites.google.com/site/thestoiclife/the-course>

<http://www.ibiblio.org/stoicism/>

~~~
mindcrime
It doesn't seem terribly strange to me. I've seen the occasional reference to
Stoicism and/or The Meditations on here before, and on other sites that were
geek/hacker centric, going back quite some years now.

~~~
nacker
"I was shocked to come back online after a couple of hours and find this at
the top of the front page"

Well mindcrime, Stoicism has been on my mind for well over 20 years, and I'm
simply agreeing with your "shock" that a simple link to the Meditations is on
the front page.

Let me assure you, this level of recognition of the very word is new. It may
be only the Tim Ferriss PR machine, but I think it's more than that.

Geek/hackers that I've come across over the last 30 years have much more in
tune with such awful hackneyed dungeons and dragons/Tolkien crap than anything
so sophisticated.

~~~
mindcrime
Fair enough. Me using the word "shocked" might have been a bit of hyperbole,
maybe I should have said "surprised". But nonetheless, I'm not shocked to see
some meaningful interest in this subject among this crowd.

Of course, I'm FAR from an expert on this topic myself, and one thing I'm
really happy about, from this thread, are all the great links and suggestions
for other reading material.

------
ahoyhere
After you read Meditations, follow up with Essays by Montaigne and then
Markings by Dag Hammarskjold. Thank me later!

PS - don't just read, take notes and write your own reflections. That's the
way to learn.

