

Ask HN: Salary Increases Over Time - thingummywut

I'm curious about how pay for particular positions at particular companies trend over time. It seems a little tricky to find the data since glassdoor doesn't seem to offer additional breakdown by year. Other sites don't seem to have sufficient datapoints. What has your experience been with annual raises? And do you find salary-reporting sites to be accurate? Or possibly filled with outdated data?
======
buro9
Experience to date has been that without promotion, pay-rises within a company
have always trailed inflation.

So either you get promoted, and at that point you've negotiated a substantial
raise (to offset the real decline in earnings and to protect your actual
earnings in the years after the payrise)...

Or...

You go get a job elsewhere.

It's a sad fact that the majority of real pay rises that I've ever seen, and
that others I've spoken to have seen, have all come as a result of changing
employer.

This is a UK perspective btw.

~~~
Ntrails
The phrasing bandied about where I currently work is:

"You are doing the same job as last year, so your pay should be the same
adjusted for inflation. If you want more money, you need to be taking on more
responsibility, growing your role."

~~~
beaumartinez
You are doing the same job as last year, _except with a whole nother year's
worth of experience_.

~~~
heymishy
very off topic, but i've always wondered whether 'nother' was an acceptable
word to use.

~~~
lawl
no native english speaker here, but i guess "a whole 'nother" would be
correct. but let people be lazy when typing online. actually i guess you'd
also need to switch the words to be gramatically correct: "another whole year"

~~~
neltnerb
native english speaker here, and I grant that english is flexible enough that
such things are largely a matter of opinion, but "nother" bugs me. I would
write 'other with the apostrophe used to indicate the mixing of "a whole
other" and "another" into 'other. I would pronounce it "other" if I was
thinking, but possibly "nother" if I was being sloppy.

~~~
46Bit
It works in speech, but makes no sense in writing. 'nother is more confusing
and awkward to write that another.

~~~
jwoah12
I cringe when I hear people say this. It works in speech to the extent that
"irregardless" or "I could care less" are acceptable.

~~~
46Bit
> I cringe when I hear people say this. It works in speech to the extent that
> "irregardless" or "I could care less" are acceptable.

I'm not sure where you're from, but in Yorkshire you'd end up saying such
things yourself before long. What matters is comprehension, and whilst writing
to an audience means you need to ensure clarity, the same concerns are less
applicable to chatting to a lifelong friend.

------
annon
Varies wildly from company to company. Some will keep an eye on the market,
and make sure they are paying you market rate. If you're great, they'll make
sure you're paid more than market so you don't have any reason to even talk.

However, many companies will only open their checkbooks when you're hired, or
when you have an offer they need to counter. These are the companies that suck
to work for because everyone is talking and interviewing to get their next
raise. How can you trust your employees?

~~~
jsmeaton
Yep, happened exactly this way at my last job. I was ridiculously underpaid,
and I was attempting to negotiate about a month before pay reviews and was
told to wait. My intentions were clear though.

The mandate came down - 3% for everyone more or less. I argued, and was
politely shot down. Three weeks later I had a new job offer at a competitor I
really wanted to work for. My current employer asked me how much it'd take to
stay - "no dollar amount would keep me". I'm actually interested now how much
they were willing to offer as a counter though.

New company has been really great with annual rises in the vicinity of about
$10k.

~~~
antidoh
Paying an employee enough to keep him from leaving, before he _declares_ that
he's leaving, could be seen as a form of early optimization.

We don't like early optimization, for good reasons. "They" probably don't like
it either, for similar reasons. No reason to fix the employee machine if it
isn't making noise.

~~~
llamabroth
The point was that he did make noise (albeit softly), and his noise went
unheard. If you express your honest concerns, and those concerns fall on deaf
ears, you'll know that your input won't matter in the future either.

Machine analogy doesn't work here, because machines don't understand human
psychology.

------
powatom
My policy is that every year I aim for a substantial pay rise. There is no set
percentage that I aim for, I basically just come up with a number that I want,
and start negotiating.

The day that the company claims there is no more room in the budget, and I
can't see any realistic chance of progression, is the day I start looking for
a new job.

Generally speaking, the easiest way to secure a decent pay-rise is to change
companies. However, most companies have some kind of appraisal system in place
- don't be afraid to ask for a pay-rise. Most companies expect it, and are
prepared to negotiate somewhat.

In the past year, I increased my salary by 50%. Know what you're worth, work
out the average for your position and skillset, and demand it.

Working for a lower salary than the industry standard is not only bad for you,
it's bad for the industry as a whole.

~~~
brixon
"Working for a lower salary than the industry standard is not only bad for
you, it's bad for the industry as a whole."

There is a reason not everyone gets paid the same. Two software engineers with
7 years experience in the same technologies but one has taken on leadership
roles in big projects and the other has only done small solo projects. The
first person should be above the industry standard, but the second person
should be below the industry standard.

~~~
powatom
Of course, that's where the negotiation comes in to play from both the
employer and the employee.

------
huhtenberg
This will largely depend on the company - its size, its domain, and it will
also depend on one's position within the company.

For example, the same senior C/C++/Java dev can have recurrent annual 10%
raises in a larger enterprise or government outlet. He may also get irregular
20-30% performance based raises that sometimes double as retainers. While more
likely to happen in a small companies, I saw it happen in larger (500+)
companies too. Alternatively, he may get a year-end or a project-end bonus.
finally, he can also get no increase, which is the kind of bonus favoured by
the game development sweatshops.

No wonder there's no unified stats on this. How can there be.

~~~
Swannie
No only the position. Having worked in two multi-nationals, they generally
have a band or grade system. For the given band there's a min, max and
midpoint. But, this is broken down by country, and in the USA often broken
down by Bay Area, NYC, rest of country.

And like the other comments, at these places annual bonuses, project bonuses,
and spot bonuses are usually budgeted for. If you don't hear about them, and
you're in a big co. ask your manager, and if they don't know then you've got
the wrong manager!

------
geori
In order to credibly get a raise and get paid what you're worth, you need a
BATNA -
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Best_alternative_to_a_negotiate...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Best_alternative_to_a_negotiated_agreement)

Otherwise your employer has no reason to give you a raise. If they don't think
you're a risk of taking another job why would they voluntarily give you a
large raise and cut into their margins?

------
aioprisan
From what I've seen with software engineering positions, you can expect
roughly a 10-25% year over year salary increase. I also can't stress enough
how much negotiating a higher starting salary can have an impact over your
long term prospects. It's very important to know what you're worth on the
market so that you can make sure that you're compensated fairly for the amount
of experience AND potential that you have. Recruiting engineers usually costs
about 10-20k, so companies more likely than not will give you at least a 10%
increase to keep you from leaving, and more based on how much you were able to
deliver and how well you can negotiate.

~~~
late2part
Average of your 10-25% is 17.5%. 17.5% raise per year over 20 years is a
salary of 25X in 20 years.

I know someone who started at $10k in 1975 and was at $80k in 1996.

Do you expect an entry level sw engineer at $70k to be making as salary of
$1.8M in 2032?

I suspect Math doesn't mean what you think it means.

~~~
aioprisan
That's as ridiculous a statement as expecting someone to make $5+ million
after 30 years. I didn't say it will go up forever. This growth won't keep
going for more that 5-10 years, after which it will go down to the 5% range. I
have software engineer friends who started 8 years ago at 60k and now make
around 180-200k as principal engineers, roughly a 15% increase YoY, after
which salary stays stagnant unless if you get an MBA and move into management
roles.

------
djb_hackernews
I'll give you some real world numbers:

* 2006 entered the job market as a new CS grad in Boston area. 39k salary.

* 2007 was given a 7% raise

* 2008 I asked for and got a raise to 50k (roughly 19% increase)

* 2009 I quit and travelled

* 2010 Moved to DC and found a job at 65k (roughly 30% increase)

* 2011 I asked for and got a raise to 85k (roughly 30% increase)

* 2012-first half I switched jobs in DC to 100k (roughly 17% increase)

* 2012-second half I left that job to travel and start my own thing

* 2013 Hopefully I won't be talking about salaries.

Two things:

* I definitely dug a hole for myself a few times, but I can say every job was a great place to work and I was surrounded by people I learned from every day.

* I never negotiated. Anytime I asked for a raise I was honest with them and I told them up front I wasn't negotiating. I gave them a number and told them that's what it'd take to make me happy. Both times they came back with a counter offer and both times I repeated I wasn't negotiating and thanked them for taking the time to see what they could do. In both cases I ended up getting what I asked for.

~~~
michaelochurch
_I never negotiated. Anytime I asked for a raise I was honest with them and I
told them up front I wasn't negotiating._

Who says negotiation is dishonest?

~~~
djb_hackernews
Not what I was implying at all.

I was honest in that I told them I was happy with the job and my work but not
happy with my salary. I just tried to be as direct as possible.

------
chrisbennet
I've never worked at a company that had raises that kept up with the market.
I've been a software developer since 1985.

~~~
Swannie
Agreed. If you can under pay by an amount that is less than the perceived pain
of looking elsewhere, that's sane if you have a short term view.

Other option you'll see in big corps is to use old technologies only. This
gives them an excuse to underpay, and makes it harder for their devs to leave
to a fair market salary role!

~~~
babarock
I work in the IT department of a major European investment bank. I can assure
you that they're willing to pay high salaries to hire experts in said old
technologies.

Mainframes are still in use, COBOL devs are in very high demand and finding
experts in technologies as young as CORBA is becoming more and more difficult.

Never understimate the cash power of big financial institutions with old
legacy systems.

------
snooblywoobly
It's my experience that getting a pay rise in the same job is rather difficult
in small/medium sized companies. The only way I have so far accomplished it is
to move. Opinions tend to be quite viscous, it takes a lot of energy applied
over a long period of time to change a view point. First impressions count.
Just like your parents will tend to always see you as a child, your boss will
tend to see you as the person you were when you joined. The dynamics of this
situation are so stable over time that it can push common sense to breaking
point. I was recently underpaid by £10,000 according to the market rate, yet
could not negotiate even an inflation matching rise in pay. Like many things
this is a battle between competing forces, your desire for enough money to
make your life comfortable, the companies drive for more profit, a person's
desire to avoid having to think, a person's drive for power and respect, etc.
If you find yourself playing a game you cannot win, change the game and move
on.

~~~
kingofspain
Very similar for me. I was doing a job I could easily have got £40k for, for
£13.5k (I incredibly stupidly applied labelling myself as 'junior' because I
only had 4 years experience back then). I never got a single pay rise, not
even for inflation. Eventually I wised up and moved on. Up until I went
freelance it was the _only_ way I ever got an increase.

------
binarymax
I'm in a fun (and unique) situation. I work in and am paid from the UK, but am
on a US Salary. I get a performance based raise on my US salary, between
something like 2.5% and 5%. The fun part is that at the beginning of the year,
they also set the exchange rate! It lasts for a whole year, so it can have
good or bad consequences. The gods favored me last year, but who knows what
the beancounters will come up this year. I could get a 5% raise but a -7% hit
on the exchange. Or I could get a 3% raise and a +6.5% boost on the exchange.
Oh the gloriousness of being an expat!

~~~
edent
I'm curious - where do you pay tax? Are there not funny rules about overseas
earnings?

Or are you "based" in the Cayman Isles ;-p

~~~
binarymax
I pay UK, and if I go over the limit I pay US on extras.

------
moocow01
The thing that Ive found is that once you get into the upper-tier range (I
define this as 125-150k and on average seems to include people with 5 to 10
years experience) it gets harder than before.

My first 5 years on average I had great raises - 15-20% on average (all mostly
from job changes). Now it seems a little bit harder - I most likely can go out
and convince someone to pay me 5 or 10k more but I feel my head starting to
skim that glass ceiling. There are things I could do to change - I could go
find a job doing financial transactions or blindly go work for the highest
bidder with no care work conditions and other things, etc.

The point being is that developer salaries in the first part of the career can
go up relatively fast but in my opinion top out relatively quickly (not such a
bad thing necessarily). I think from there you need to go out on your own if
you want to really make more.

------
mbesto
The best advice I can give is - try to estimate how much you are worth to a
company. It can be fairly complicated, but understanding what you bring to the
table can not only give you peace of mind but can also increase your salary.

It's your career. Own it. Let your employer know you own it. Any good employer
will support you.

~~~
codegeek
"It's your career. Own it"

This. I am amazed to see how many people don't understand the importance or
relevance of this statement.

------
mathattack
IMHO the big breaks (40+%) happen at major transition points: Promotion, post-
grad-degree & new job. Everything should be aimed at those big 3 for long term
compensation increases.

It's very hard to generalize on specifics. If you're freelancing, contracting
or consulting, it's largely a function of how much your billing rate
increases. If you're in software it's more a function of how the firm is
doing, and how much credit you get for it. (If it's a weak link to how you get
the credit, it's hard to point to)

One other note - there tend to be caps at levels within firms, so you can
catch up if you're underpaid, but it's hard to break above without one of the
big discontinuous jumps I mentioned above.

ok - one last note... You get paid best if you succeed in "line" jobs where
you are contributing directly to money coming in, rather than "staff" jobs.
This means that good Sales people always do well, and they'll get better
comped than someone purchasing advertising from outside vendors. Likewise, a
developer on a core product with get paid better than someone with the same
degree and experience working in internal IT.

Salary reporting sites frequently get their data from H1-B applications, so
the #s are reliable, but you have to be careful about timing. Someone working
in banking technology in 2007 will get paid much more than the same job today.

------
llamabroth
I don't really like switching jobs often, and I'm very happy with my current
position in the Boston area but here are my hard numbers: Generalist
Programmer out of College, fell into C# as first position.

Age 25: Paid Internship at 45k/year

4 Months Later: Brought on at 55k/year

6 Months Later: Asked for raise, bumped up to 60k/year

6 Months Later: New position, (Owner of 5 employee company was dying of
cancer), bumped up to 70k/year + 3% Bonus/extra week vacation

1 Year Later: Merit based raise, bumped to 73k/year (asked for promotion and
mentioned possible departure)

3 Months Later: Promotion, bumped to 78k/year (4% bonus on new salary)

This isn't the norm, I started at a much lower starting rate than I should
have because even though I was qualified, I didn't have any personal projects
to show off my skills and just needed to get my foot in the door.

In the end my point is that Salary increases should not (and generally aren't)
based on a % of your current salary, but on what you've shown your true worth
to be. Once you hit that true worth, it's adjusted for inflation and
commitment.

------
edent
One of the best things you can do is ask your colleagues and your peers about
their salary. That's the best way you can find out whether your pay is in line
with "the industry".

Some companies have specific rules against disclosing your salary - try not to
work for those people :-)

It may also be worth asking for an equal pay audit[0] - are you being
discriminated against because of your sex, race, etc?

Finally, don't just look at salary. Look at the total package - pension
provision, holidays, bonus schemes, company car, discount schemes etc.

[0] [http://www.equalityhumanrights.com/advice-and-
guidance//tool...](http://www.equalityhumanrights.com/advice-and-
guidance//tools-equal-pay/equal-pay-audit-toolkit/carrying-out-an-equal-pay-
audit/)

~~~
sethg
In the US, your employer can forbid you from revealing your pay _to outsiders_
, but the National Labor Relations Act guarantees that employees have the
right to discuss their pay _with one another_. (I believe this falls under the
heading “you have the right to discuss with your co-workers whether or not
your job sucks so much that you should try to organize a union.”)

------
EliRivers
As many others have said, the best way to get a pay rise is to get a new job.
This becomes especially true if you work for BigCorp (or at least, big enough
to have internal policies on pay rises).

I used to work with an embedded engineer who got a pay rise of 40% by quitting
and getting another (very similar) job. Her manager knew that he needed to pay
her a lot more but global company policy tied his hands and limited what pay
rises he could hand out. I think he watched this happen over and over and over
again.

------
michaelochurch
You asked for numbers. I probably shouldn't do this under my real name but...
who gives a fuck.

US, 29 years old, 6.5 years in the industry. Salary growth has been about
12-14% per year, and I've made a lot of career mistakes, hence fairly average
results. I'd probably have done 18-20% if I had (a) not made those mistakes,
while (b) switching employers strategically. Most of the growth, as others
have noted, occurs when you switch.

Obviously you can't continue getting 20% improvements every year for 40 years,
but if you work hard, you should be able to get 10-15% per year for a while,
and then you get to a point where it's easier and more fruitful to push for
more time and autonomy than salary increases.

What are called "performance" bonuses actually have a lot to do with
macroeconomic conditions. One year, at one job, I got a 60% bonus. I was good,
but nowhere near the strongest on the team. Equity allotments have a lot to do
with what the board will allow. One of the reasons Facebook has been able to
get so many good engineers is that the board doesn't set caps on engineer
stock allotments, which is the case for many startups. Consequently, Facebook
was free to offer 6- and 7-figure options packages (at valuation; _not_
packages that eventually became worth that much) to engineers and get some
really credible people, while many startups can't.

When you get into the game has an effect on what you'll make and what your
trajectory will be. If I'd entered the market in 2002, I'd have entered in a
time when $50k was a good salary for an entry-level software engineer. (No,
I'm not kidding.) In 2006, when I did enter, it was in the $80k range. At peak
in early 2012, it was about $105k.

Getting an increase usually involves changing companies unless you're in the
top 10% for political success and can have a real career there and keep
getting promotions. Why is it this way? Well, there are two things to keep in
mind. The first is that salaries are low because the company is taking a risk.
A good software engineer is worth $500k easily, but the salary is going to be
lower because there's a risk that any specific person is not going to be any
good. So what happens after someone has a chance to prove him- or herself?
Well, that's the second problem. Now you've worked for cheap for a year, and
if you ask for a raise, you're asking your boss to pay more for the same work.
If you ask for a promotion or better work, then you're a demanding subordinate
and that hurts you as well.

Most companies have a "real player" track that involves a promotion (and a
~20% raise, with more potential for bonuses) every 2 years, and an "everyone
else" track where a promotion might happen every 6-8. If you end up on the
latter track, you need to change jobs and build your own real-player track. I
think the optimal leaving point (if you're on the loser track) is around 2
years of employment, because at 2 years you are likely to get a real promotion
in your next job (you have to create the impression, though, that you're about
to get promoted where you are, even if it's not true) whereas bolting after 6
months will just get you a lateral move and too much of that is damaging.

Salary reporting sites tend to be accurate regarding base salaries, but data
on performance-based bonuses and equity grants seem to be dodgy. There's also
a hell of a lot of false signaling that goes on there, especially in finance
where employers ask about bonus history and everyone claims to have had top
bonus.

~~~
codegeek
Don't mean to undermine your point but where in US is 12-14% raise average ?
From what I know, most full time employers go for the usual inflation crap of
3-4%. Unless you change jobs or are in contracting, 12-14% seems high to me in
the US.

~~~
michaelochurch
12-14% is better than average. I was using it as a euphemism for "mediocre",
which it is for a person who lives in a high-COL city (one of the main reasons
rents are so high is that career progress is faster out here) and in lucrative
industries. When people not 1/10 as talented or capable as I am are, at the
same age, making MD in investment banks, being acquired for millions, or
making 500+ in private equity, I think it's fair to say that a 12-14%
trajectory is pretty damn uninspiring. Money isn't an issue, but I'd be
calling way more shots at my age if I hadn't taken so many bad risks (read:
shitty startups).

I'm 0 for 2 in picking startups. The first just didn't have legs (our CEO had
no idea what people actually wanted and would pay for) but my mistake was to
spend almost 3 years trying to make it work. The second had unethical
management who (a) tried to use my engineering credibility to justify dodgy
personnel moves, attempting to force me to sign affidavits claiming my
colleagues were incompetent (they weren't, but they had "too much" equity) and
(b) after I resigned, did all sorts of disgusting stuff to try to fuck with my
career.

You're right that if you don't change employer or get a promotion, you're
unlikely to get a substantial raise. I assume that anyone who isn't promoted
after 2 years is, unless they have essentially full autonomy to direct their
work, going to start looking elsewhere. You'd be insane not to. Your future is
your real boss, because the future is what actually pays us.

~~~
throwaway4726
I am at a non-US profitable startup where the founders know exactly what
people actually want and would pay for, but I wouldn't say the technical side
of the start up is good enough to even call mediocre. The "technical" co-
founder is more like a sales guy who takes a brief look at the technical side
of things one day a week. They've been hiring fresh graduates without any
experience. The code is getting difficult to maintain and performance is
sluggish, resulting in excessively high server costs. The founders were fresh
graduates when they started this company and I don't think they got funded by
any venture capital. They have a knack for figuring out what people want and
selling to them but I feel they lack technical experience.

I've been interning here for a few months, and they've already asked me to
stay when I graduate, so that I can lead the IT team (around 4) on two
products, handling software architecture, development process, performance
optimisation, etc, etc and basically replacing him and hinted at offering a
more than average graduate salary. They were apparently very impressed at my
software engineering abilities. (I had done some freelancing work before) I've
asked them why don't they consider hiring someone experienced in their 30's
instead and they said that's what they're going to do if I reject their offer.

I know how to do what they want me to do more because of what I've studied at
university than from my experience, and I feel nervous being given such a
large responsibility. I want to work with people who write good code, with
projects that already have a good architecture in place. Is that possible or
are most companies in similar shape? I also feel that it won't be easy to
advance _this_ fast at another company and I could be missing a great
opportunity. My friends who recently graduated and are working at large
companies tell me they're lucky to write >10 lines a day and that they are
always stuck in meetings. There are other startups here but I don't think I'll
get offered a salary that's any good.

What should I do?

~~~
michaelochurch
The fact that they're good at figuring out what people want is not to be
understated. That's not common, and most startups fail because they don't
produce something people want and will pay for. All the technical muscle in
the world can't overcome that. I've worked in two startups (one failed, one
was too sleazy to even discuss) and did excellent technical work at both, but
that didn't matter in the end because of executive problems. If your "business
guys" are good at finding customers, figuring out what they want, and
delivering it, that's a major asset.

Here's what you need. Get a VP-level title so you can hire people better than
you and not push yourself down, because that's what will happen if you don't
have a title. At this stage of the company, titles mean nothing, but at 40
employees, they will.

Now find at least one technical person who's better than you and try to
recruit him. He'll be your mentor. He'll possibly want a title once he learns
that you have one. That's fine. Make sure the founders are willing to make him
VP as well, so you're equals. (You don't want to be the boss of someone better
than you, so mandate that the people you hire answer directly to founders/the
board).

~~~
throwaway4726
They only call themselves Directors (who are supposed to answer to VP's), so
what title should I ask for? They suggested "product manager", but that is BS
because product managers are responsible for the features of a product, while
I'll be involved in its development. I've also been told they don't plan to
hire another technical person after me for two years. They made hiring
decisions before by having votes between the founders. So even if they give me
a vote I won't be able to hire/fire anyone I want. I suppose I can convince
them later on...

Thanks for the advice, I have a clearer idea of what I want to do now. :)

------
JeffJenkins
I've been doing a broad job search for the last month, and my general
impression is that the numbers are too low on those sites (in NYC, with 7-8
years of experience). It basically meant that I was in for a pleasant
surprise!

I don't actually know what normal raises look like since I was in a startup
and the raises tended to be huge followed by nothing for a while.

------
kenjagi
First post - yeah!

Federal contractor in Washington DC.

Average increase in salary changing company: 17% (Low 2.5% increase, High 42%
increase)

Average increase in salary through raise: 3.2% (Low 2% increase, High 4%
increase)

I've generally found that salary reporting sites are inaccurate as the
salaries listed are double what the reality is.

------
jimwalsh
When I was a Sys Admin in USA, your salary never increased unless you left the
company and took a job elsewhere. Those were your raises, and it's why SA
turnover is so high and how even companies just treat them as a dime a dozen
now a days.

~~~
brixon
That is more the aftermath of the dot com days when there was a severe
shortage of SA people. Big companies would train people and get them certified
and those people would turn around a leave for double the salary. So companies
quit training and did not expect anyone to stay over a year.

~~~
jimwalsh
They continue to not be training, or doing a bare minimum of it. My current
company thinks sending me to a 3-5k class a year is apparently more valuable
than increasing my salary 3-5k a year. It's not.

------
aravan
In India, salary hike when jumping the job is about 30% to 50% during first 5
years of experience.

Within the company, the high will be about 8% to 20%. There are always
exceptions.

