

Ask PG: Fix the broken flagging system? Surface article just got flagged off FP - cooldeal

Just like it happens like clockwork on any Microsoft article that is not negative on them, the Surface Pro pricing announcement just got flagged off the front page.http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4848998<p>If there's anything flag worthy there, can anyone please tell me what it is? From the HN guidelines "If you think something is spam or offtopic, flag it by going to its page and clicking on the "flag" link."<p>As usual, I suspect it's the overzealous MS haters armed with the flag button. Simlar things happen to some anti-Google and anti-Apple stories.<p>I think the logic behind the flagging system was that someone good enough to get enough karma(now 500) would be objective enough not to flag anything legit that show their favorite company in bad light. Clearly that has failed. Paul Thurrott's Winsupersite is completely banned from HN because of this and any articles that reach front page that paint MS in good light are flagged to death. I have multiple screenshots of this happening if anyone cares to want them.<p>The flagging system is clearly  outdated and broken and doesn't account for people with good karma trying to censor legitimate news articles they don't want others to see.
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NZ_Matt
Exactly the same thing happened just a few days ago on the article about
Windows 8 reaching 40million sales.
<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4839972>

~~~
alicesa
Could be related to the similar app numbers story being exposed as
questionable?

People generally don't like sales stories that promote a product unless its
from a trusted source.

------
GHFigs
What does "flagged off" mean? Where are you seeing the number of flags, and
how are you concluding that flagging causes something to fall off the front
page any faster than normal? AFAIK the front-page sorting has always been
counter-intuitive.

You (and recoiledsnake) seem to make the exact same accusations on a very
regular basis, but I'm not clear on how you're arriving at them.

~~~
recoiledsnake
You could've just asked me earlier. Anyway, there is a hotness rating which is
combination how fresh the article is, and how many points an article has.

For example, an article with 45 points posted 10 minutes ago will have a
higher ranking than an article with 10 points posted 45 minutes ago.

The Surface article with 50 points was ranking much lower than articles with
less points posted _before_ it. That indicates flagging.

As to the front page being wonky, can you point out any instances of articles
with 50 points posted 1 hour ago being in the second page?

>how are you concluding that flagging causes something to fall off the front
page any faster than normal

That's the whole point of flagging. If the flags are many more, it will even
kill the post completely.

Also, see <http://hnrankings.info/4848998/>

The sudden plunge does not happen with other stories.

~~~
GHFigs
_You could've just asked me earlier._

In all sincerity, the quality and quantity of your earlier comments on this
left me with the impression that you had nothing but accusation and rage.
(Disclaimer: I use Windows on a ThinkPad. I have a Samsung phone.)

Also, I don't rely on the front page, rarely vote on stories and have flagged
maybe two or three times, so this isn't something that I am particularly
concerned with or think anybody else should be. But comment quality I _am_
concerned with, and so I care to the extent that addressing this issue will
assist you and cooldeal posting fewer of the same angry comments.

So, to that extent, while I remain unconvinced that the problem is as
described, I appreciate the effort.

 _That indicates flagging. [..] That's the whole point of flagging._

You answered neither of my questions: How are you counting the number of
flags? Where are you getting the idea that flagging is effectively a downvote?
I've never understood flags to cause anything to happen without a human
moderator.

~~~
brudgers
_"I've never understood flags to cause anything to happen without a human
moderator."_

That's the way most sites work. HN isn't most sites. Unlike vBulletin, etc.
content on HN isn't static. Like up and downvotes, flagging allows community
moderation without the moderators getting involved. They can work instead.

People know how flagging works on HN because the basic code is available for
inspection.

~~~
GHFigs
I have looked at news.arc and I do not come to the same conclusion about how
flagging works. Without any additional information to understand the
allegations, I've concluded that this is probably bullshit.

------
brudgers
In fairness, Microsoft's announcement _is_ competing with the actual sighting
of a Linux laptop on Dell's website.

~~~
cooldeal
Err, I believe you're referring to the Wired article, while this post talks
about the earlierMS Blog post that got flagged off the page.

~~~
brudgers
"Err" is correct. Your belief is mistaken. I commented upon the topic at hand.

------
JoeCortopassi
iOS developer here, see the same thing with any article writing positively
about an Apple product

~~~
JoeCortopassi
Another example of a Microsoft article getting hit today:

<http://hnrankings.info/4849090/>

Microsoft mocks Internet Explorer haters in new ad

<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4849090>

~~~
JuDue
Urm, Microsoft should not be mocking people for suffering their late and
fragmented attempts at web browsing.

They should be thankful the dev community is giving IE10 a go and actually
being encouraging to some extent.

~~~
cooldeal
That is completely orthogonal to the fact that the _news_ about such an ad
needs to be flagged, which is meant for spam and offtopic links.

~~~
chc
> _flagged, which is meant for spam and offtopic links_

It's meant for bad links. Spam and off-topic articles are included, but that
is not its exclusive use. For example, a post about how much the author hates
gay startup founders is more on-topic than a lot of stuff that gets posted
here, but is nonetheless inappropriate on numerous levels.

I don't know if I would flag a news story about a Microsoft ad campaign, but
I'd probably at least consider it, because those are not generally very
intellectually stimulating.

------
recoiledsnake
Eh, it's nothing new with the fanboys here who form a defacto "Bury Brigade",
if you remember that term on Digg where articles just used to die a sudden
death.

They're just waiting for the inevitable Gruber's, Marco's or Siegler's
deprecating takes and hit pieces on the Surface Pro pricing. Those will stay
on the front page for days. This typically happens with any important MS
related announcements or launches.

A good start would be to make it a bit transparent by actually showing the
number of flags. I sometimes also wonder if it's the shareholders of
competitor companies or some of their employees doing the flagging.

~~~
brudgers
It's more than a defacto action in regards to Windows. WinSuperSite articles
are killed upon submission automatically.

~~~
recoiledsnake
True, perhaps all the user flagging made the HN server think it was a spam
site.

------
cooldeal
Clickable link: <http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4848998>

HN Rankings graph showing the sudden plunge. <http://hnrankings.info/4848998/>

~~~
chc
I'm not pg, but that looks to my untrained eye more like the voting ring
detector going off than the effect of flags.

------
JuDue
Stop acting like you need special treatment because you're some kind of
starved minority.

Windows has ABSOLUTELY dominated the world (in numbers, at least) for over two
decades and is still #1. What's your problem? Not enough attention? Not
getting enough hipster love for your c0rp0r4t10n?

There are 2 stories about Windows and one about Microsoft on the homepage. Boo
hoo?

~~~
JuDue
Hmm... pointing out the heavy amount of MS stories on front page... pointing
out MS dominate the OS space.... obviously this must be down voted at all
costs.

~~~
wlesieutre
It's being downvoted because the the tone of your post does not fit the kind
of conversation that Hn users want to have here

~~~
JuDue
And MS items get flagged off often because microsoft cannot buy peoples hearts
with a billion dollars in advertising after decades of an ugly monopoly.

Works both ways.

~~~
alicesa
Seems MS do get adequate coverage based on the number if stories I see on
first few pages and an hour on the homepage isn't woe.

They are attempting to change their tact, from ruthless business tactics to
inspiring the people. Maybe that hasn't translated yet to the HN mind

