
'Football pitch' of Amazon forest lost every minute - QuickToBan
https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-48827490
======
ohthehugemanate
Drives me crazy to see how we report this stuff. Doom and gloom sells more
papers than hope, of course.

Yes, we are still net deforesting the Amazon rainforest... At the slowest rate
since we began measuring. In 2016 we deforested about 6000km2. TFA says that
in 2018 we deforested about 3700km2. This is down from the 1995 peak of 28,000
km2/yr. Remember all those programs to save the rainforest? Turns out they're
working really well, and TFA proves it.

BBC opted not to print the headline "Amazon deforestation still improving, now
at lowest rate ever!" And opted for the scary/outrageous version we see above.
Both are true, but one tells you that our anti-deforestation efforts work, and
have been improving the situation for decades. The other says everything is
hopeless. Which one do you think is better for encouraging further action?

We're not done yet, there's still a terrible amount of deforestation going on,
but we are definitely getting there!

(Fancy chart: [https://ourworldindata.org/uploads/2013/11/annual-rate-of-
le...](https://ourworldindata.org/uploads/2013/11/annual-rate-of-legal-
deforestation-in-the-amazon-in-km2-per-year-197788-2013-inpe0.png) )

~~~
toomuchtuna
> Which one do you think is better for encouraging further action?

I can fairly easily imagine that the doom and gloom spin does better. The
message that anti-deforestation efforts work and have been for decades likely
does less to make the average person feel they should continue to do anything
about it in their daily lives, since the current trend indicates everything
will be fine. Instead, if you believe that the situation is dire, a person
that otherwise would not care deeply about the problem might be more likely to
take action.

I would argue that a combination of the two is most effective, if the primary
goal is to encourage further action. A little doom and gloom by framing the
current situation as an image people can understand ("a football pitch every
minute") convinces people that there is still a significant problem, and then
the hopeful aspect (that the trend actually shows a positive outlook)
convinces them that any action they take will be useful.

~~~
SmellyGeekBoy
Indeed, I went from a genuine "what can I personally do about this" when
hearing about this on the radio this morning to "OK, I guess I don't need to
get involved after all" when reading GP's comment. Just because outrage
promotes clicks doesn't mean that it doesn't also encourage action.

------
koolba
> An area of Amazon rainforest roughly the size of a football pitch is now
> being cleared every single minute, according to satellite data.

A football pitch is 7,140 square meters so that’s 10,281,600 square meters per
day. That’s 10.3 square kilometers per day, which assuming 24/7/365 work
progress comes out to 3752 square kilometers per year. According to Wikipedia
the Amazon rainforest is about 5.5M square kilometers so that’s 0.0682% per
year assuming zero regrowth.

Honestly that does not seem like a lot.

~~~
patagonia
If you’re gonna use math to show how unimpressed you are, I’d be more
impressed if you factored in the increased rate of clearing over time.

~~~
koolba
I considered it but if it’s anything like the US the rate would be relatively
consistent over time until it eventually tapers out to a steady state vs
regrowth. Here’s a fun read if you’re curious:
[https://www.fia.fs.fed.us/library/brochures/docs/2012/Forest...](https://www.fia.fs.fed.us/library/brochures/docs/2012/ForestFacts_1952-2012_English.pdf)

~~~
patagonia
If you're curious you could have googled something like "rate of growth of
amazon deforestation". If you would, you'd have seen in the summary of the 1st
result from Wikipedia: "The annual rate of deforestation in the Amazon region
dramatically increased from 1991 to 2003." The title of the third result is:
"Brazil: deforestation in the Amazon increased 29% over last year". So if you
want to dismiss an idea that you had, maybe step outside your head. If you
want to draw historic correlations maybe don't try to do so based on
completely different examples. There are very few South American issues on
which I'd use U.S. historical data points for which to draw forward looking
conclusions. Military growth? Energy policy? Monetary policy? Natural resource
utilization? I wouldn't for any of those. But you boldly chose,,,
deforestation?

If you're gonna try to sound smart by dismissing something out of hand, then
be smart. But for the love of god don't trivialize deforestation just as
climate change is in the beginning stages of getting really, really bad, based
on some half baked hunch you have, and then suggest I read some 64 page
document that has, more than likely, no value add to the discussion.

(Sorry but not sorry for the tone. Trivializing this issue is not ok. The
logic was not correct. Patronizingly suggesting I read a 64 page doc, like a
professor handing out homework. This is climate change, and the arguments were
weak to wrong.)

~~~
koolba
> If you're curious you could have googled something like "rate of growth of
> amazon deforestation". If you would, you'd have seen in the summary of the
> 1st result from Wikipedia: "The annual rate of deforestation in the Amazon
> region dramatically increased from 1991 to 2003." The title of the third
> result is: "Brazil: deforestation in the Amazon increased 29% over last
> year". So if you want to dismiss an idea that you had, maybe step outside
> your head. If you want to draw historic correlations maybe don't try to do
> so based on completely different examples. There are very few South American
> issues on which I'd use U.S. historical data points for which to draw
> forward looking conclusions. Military growth? Energy policy? Monetary
> policy? Natural resource utilization? I wouldn't for any of those. But you
> boldly chose,,, deforestation?

The numbers also dropped off significantly in 2009 and the latest figures seem
to jive with my back of the envelope math. The "football pitch per minute"
level quoted in the article is is below the averages for the past decade.

> If you're gonna try to sound smart by dismissing something out of hand, then
> be smart. But for the love of god don't trivialize deforestation just as
> climate change is in the beginning stages of getting really, really bad,
> based on some half baked hunch you have, and then suggest I read some 64
> page document that has, more than likely, no value add to the discussion.

> (Sorry but not sorry for the tone. Trivializing this issue is not ok...

Being outraged does not give any additional credibility to your opinion. Far
from it.

> ... The logic was not correct. Patronizingly suggesting I read a 64 page
> doc, like a professor handing out homework. This is climate change, and the
> arguments were weak to wrong.)

I linked to an article that lists out estimates of the timber resources of the
USA over the past 100-years. It seemed relevant to me as, though it's not
apples to apples to compare any two countries across the globe, it's more
relevant than arbitrarily claiming any level of cutting is going to end the
world.

------
FlyingSideKick
As a citizen of the United States (a country that cut down nearly all of its
old-growth forests) what can I do as an individual to slow down deforestation
in the Amazon? What are some real solutions I could enact that would make any
difference?

The situation feels hopeless until the Brazilian government makes a sweeping
effort to preserve the Amazon and that it's laws are fully enforced.

~~~
russianbandit
Unfortunately, the Brazilian government is corrupt af, and is only interested
in preserving their wealth.

~~~
rolltiide
In my experience, the only difference between corruption and other wealth
preserving tactics is mere respect for the form of due process

If respect isnt there, its corruption

If respect is there, its the law

~~~
r00fus
Corruption isn't a wealth preservation tactic. It's an exploitation tactic.

Whether you're strip mining the earth's resources, stripping away the wealth
of the nation, subverting the moral/political culture or simply just amassing
ill-gotten gains, corruption is the proven method.

~~~
rolltiide
Many places have deep histories and convoluted legal practices, which from an
outside perspective gets dismissed as corruption, but internally it is
considered due process

Its just that the observation goes both ways

~~~
r00fus
Corruption as due process? That's an incredible stretch.

~~~
rolltiide
and I'm telling you its not.

The idea that rule of law basically doesn't exist and isn't the method of
choice in perpetuating a circumstance in "these other corrupt countries" is
overly broad and often inaccurate

------
martincollignon
Want to make a difference on climate change as a technologist? Feel free to
join these communities actively looking for support and with ongoing projects
(that are alive):

\- [https://climateaction.tech/](https://climateaction.tech/)

\- [https://techimpactmakers.com/](https://techimpactmakers.com/)

\- [https://www.tmrow.com/](https://www.tmrow.com/)

~~~
cojant
Sounds interesting to me, however both first and last link are pointing to a
502 Bad Gateway. Is it just me?

~~~
NikkiA
Did it say 'cloudflare' under the 502 page? Because they appear to be having
some connectivity issues today on and off.

~~~
cojant
Oh yes, it works now. There was a cloudflare outage, but I wasn't aware of it.
Thank you.

------
qserasera
I'd much prefer that we prevent pristine forrest destruction knowing what I
know about habitats. Perhaps we can create a sustainable harvesting cycle
inside of already cleared areas.

------
vbuwivbiu
the denial is strong today

------
astazangasta
Amazingly, no mention of the Intercept revelations that Bolsonaro won because
of judicial corruption by the judge Sergio Moro, who eliminated Lula from the
election, and much more as part of his Lavo Jato investigation. I.e., this was
essentially a coup. Again. The DOJ also had their hand all over Lavo Jato.
Guess that Pink Tide had to be turned.

[https://theintercept.com/2019/06/17/brazil-sergio-moro-
lula-...](https://theintercept.com/2019/06/17/brazil-sergio-moro-lula-
operation-car-wash/)

[https://fair.org/home/these-revelations-really-show-the-
elec...](https://fair.org/home/these-revelations-really-show-the-election-was-
fraudulent/)

~~~
andrenth
Are you really that naive, or actually ill-intentioned?

I’ll assume the former. If you actually read these leaks, you’ll see there’s
absolutely _nothing_ that even indicates any kind of corruption on the part of
Moro or any of the attorneys.

What you have is an unverified leak by a political activist that likes to
pretend he’s a journalist, who’s married to a politician from the far left
whose party would love to bring down a legally elected government.

Think about it. Who are the parties interested in voiding the Car Wash
operation? This is the largest anti-corruption operation in the world. Who
benefits from taking it down?

There is no shortage of proof against Lula, Cunha, Cabral and all the other
politicians in jail. Do you want them free? Why?

Please don’t spread misinformation here, because unaware people might buy it
due to not understanding the situation.

Believing in a conspiracy against Lula is akin to being a flat-earther. Not
even he believes in that crap.

~~~
andrenth
The downvoters don’t like to see it mentioned that Glen Greenwald is a liar.
The evidence is clear though. In this specific case, he has produced fake
evidence, by implicating in his “leak” the names of people who weren’t event
involved in the Car Wash operator, not to mention faking timestamps to try to
prove something that never happened.

The real coup attempt here is being done by the method of greenwalding [1].

[1]
[https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=greenwalding](https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=greenwalding)

~~~
dang
Please do not do political flamewar on HN. It's not what this site is for.
Personal attacks, which you did in the parent comment, will particularly get
you banned here.

[https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html](https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html)

Edit: we've had to warn you about this repeatedly, yet you've continued to
break the site guidelines. That eventually leads to getting banned on HN. I
don't want to ban you, because you've posted good comments as well, so would
you please fix this?

~~~
andrenth
Sorry, it’s just that the original comment is so completely nonfactual that I
cannot attribute it to anything other than naïveté or ill motives.

But I should have articulated that in different words.

I do think that the original post should also be warned against political
flamewars, because if a post like that goes unreplied, someone might think
it’s true without questioning it.

~~~
dang
> I cannot attribute it to anything other than naïveté or ill motives

You've articulated this perception nicely. We all feel it, but it's a
cognitive bias that we project onto others. I've been trying to convince HN
users of this for years:
[https://hn.algolia.com/?query=by:dang%20opposing%20view&sort...](https://hn.algolia.com/?query=by:dang%20opposing%20view&sort=byDate&dateRange=all&type=comment&storyText=false&prefix=true&page=0)

I did reply to other comments in this thread, but in general it's too high a
bar to expect mods to reply equally to all violations, for the same reasons
that cops can't give speeding tickets to all speeders: they don't see all of
them, and issuing a ticket takes a lot of time.

