
Mathbreakers: Explore mathematics in a 3D game world - morganq
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/mathbreakers/mathbreakers-a-3-d-math-exploration-game
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choffstein
My sister just released a game early access on Steam[1] called "The Counting
Kingdom"[2]. It targets the U.S. core math curriculum for 6-8 year olds.

The idea is that by embedding mathematics into the core mechanics of the
gameplay – instead of having it simply be a hurdle players have to get by
before they get to further gaming (e.g. a popup quiz) – will allow players to
consistently reinforce, grow, and retain their learning without necessarily
consciously thinking about learning. It's learning through play.

I think the notion has legs, but I think it will really take a strong effort
between game developers and educators alike.

[1]
[http://store.steampowered.com/app/302750/](http://store.steampowered.com/app/302750/)
[2] [http://www.countingkingdomgame.com/](http://www.countingkingdomgame.com/)

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viviantan
Hi choffstein, I'm also one of the Mathbreakers founders.

Counting Kingdom looks awesome -- thanks for sharing! We definitely share the
same philosophy about learning through games. Popup worksheets != gameplay!

We'd love to chat and nerd out with you and your sister. How do we reach you?

Cheers! Vivian

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choffstein
You can grab her by e-mail: hello@littleworldsinteractive.com or twitter:
@LittleWorldsInt

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viviantan
Sweet. Thanks!

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jonnybgood
The early Math Blaster series that I played as a kid in the 90's was amazing
to me. Just thinking about those games gives me nostalgia. IIRC, there was an
actual storyline and the math mini-games were absolute fun. Thinking about it
now, it felt like I wasn't even doing math, but just playing a typical fun
game.

Probably wouldn't work these days, though. Before, you had the coolness of
just being on a computer and didn't care much about 3D graphics.

~~~
ccvannorman
The Island of Dr. Brain was a lot like that for me. Although we've heard tons
of comments from kids like, "I loved this game even though I knew I was doing
math the whole time". :-]

-Charlie, co-founder

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natural219
Reading the comments, I can't help but feel people are being overly negative
about this project. Math education is a huge, sprawling, decades-long
endeavor. It involves so many disciplines and moving parts and areas of
pedagogy. Math education for college graduates is an entirely different thing
than establishing basic numerical concepts in early minds and teaching kids to
be confident manipulating symbols using mathematical rules to achieve tangible
goals. I think it's an incredibly fruitful idea to take these simple math
concepts and put them in an immersive 3D environment, and this project hits
the nail on the head in regards to how we get there.

There are two main obstacles to achieving learning: Engagement, and
efficiency. A lot of efficient ways of teaching end up not being engaging, and
a lot of engaging ways of teaching end up not being very efficient.

I strongly believe that math education of the future will be one to tie these
together in an important way, and I think Mathbreakers is the best attempt
I've seen so far to bridge that gap in a practical, accessible way for
youngsters. They have derived all level design and concepts from working
directly with teachers and playtesting on students in real classrooms. They
have achieved tangible results so far, after only a year of work. I can't
imagine where they will be one year from now.

Kudos to the Mathbreakers team, I think this is one of the coolest projects to
come out of Kickstarter I've seen in a while.

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codewiz
That's not math. It's calculation, a process that computers can carry on
without actually thinking.

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DoubleMath
Yeah get those kids learning category theory!

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ccvannorman
Indeed! One of our supporters recommended using "zero" to kill addition
monsters, and "1" to kill multiplication monsters, representing the different
identities of fundamental operations. We don't have any "multiplication
monsters" \-- yet!

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rdtsc
> (Student, from the promo video) -- "This should be our homework".

What a good idea! At least for some part of the homework.

I remember we had our course back when I was in 7th through 9th grades. It
used to be called "Informatics" (this was in a ex-Soviet Block country).

First we used these strange MSX, Z80 based machines
([https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MSX](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MSX)), then
donated used IBM PC machines running DOS, Norton Commander and all. And we did
some "boring" stuff like learned to copy files with NC. Did some spreadsheets,
but the best part was we got to play games for grades. Sokoban (including a
strange MSX clone of it). Then Lemmings. Then others. They would usually be
logic games. That was really invaluable and kind of maintained my interest in
computers.

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sitkack
You were most likely an outlier. This video game should not be homework.
Inmates running the asylum.

~~~
rdtsc
But ok why shouldn't video games be homework? Isn't regular homework a game?
"Fill this spreadsheet with answers" X*5=15... etc. Solve this equation...
That is very much a game. You get a score in the end -- a grade. And hopefully
you learned something. The "learned and internalized something" part might be
accomplished better with a video game.

The problem was that for kids at that point, who haven't seen or experience
computers, showing that you can copy an abstract thing like a file from one
window of NC to another was just very boring. It would have accomplished the
task of forcing us to repeat and memorize the step enough to pass the final
exam but it wouldn't have left with with an interest in computers.

Seeing a game and thinking logically how you would beat Sokoban. Teaches some
planning, problem solving on one level, but it also shows of what computers
can do -- play music, display graphics, hold the maze in memory presumably or
on disk, keep score.

~~~
sitkack
Your putting words in my mouth, I said nothing of a spreadsheet and nor was I
saying that all video games shouldn't be homework. But _this_ video game looks
like low quality edutainment.

These kids should be playing with Mindstorms and writing Logo programs, not
playing accounting quake.

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Detrus
I can remember disliking 1998 2D Mac math games quite a bit. From what I can
remember you would solve one little arithmetic problem after another and there
would be some fun graphics around that. And they were exactly as boring as
doing hundreds of little arithmetic problems.

I wonder if this game is actually interesting or they found a few happy kids
for the video.

~~~
ccvannorman
Hi, Charlie here, co-founder of Mathbreakers (not the OP tho). This game
really is different; there are no worksheet style problems (NumberMunchers et
al.)

Our whole idea is to treat math and numbers like toys that fit together, so
you can experiment and play with numeracy and interesting calculators.

The goal is twofold: Change kids' mindsets towards math to make it more fun,
and to help them understand emergent properties of numbers (like you can use
any factor of a number to add up to that number in quick succession)

This is just the first step towards that, and it's aimed at elementary
students. Soon we hope to be making 3D graphs with enemies on them that you
have to "graph" out of your way (and other cool game-y applications)

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stared
Some time ago I collected a list of games, that are related to
science/education, but at the same time - can be played for fun (so it's not
"gamified exam preparation") [https://hackpad.com/Science-based-
games-J0X4MSberlM](https://hackpad.com/Science-based-games-J0X4MSberlM)

~~~
Vaskivo
That is a great list!

I think the "can be played for fun" is really important. One of the big
problems with "edutainment" is that they focus too much in the educative focus
and not enought in the entertainment value. Sure, it may have all the basic
math operation, but is it fun? Does it engage the kid? If not, maybe fractions
and division should be dropped and more focus should be placed in the
mechanics.

On a related note, one of the most interesting ways to be educational in a
game (and other media) is via Tangential Learning [1]. Does anyone know of any
research related to it?

[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Learning#Tangential_learning](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Learning#Tangential_learning)

~~~
stared
I agree. It seems that often people deeply misunderstand games. It is not
bonus points, achievements that make a game great.

Especially as playing (in general) is a way people and animal start learning
the world (physical and social), by interactions, trials and errors. Wolf pubs
are not getting awards in a hunt-training. They, well, play.

Man-made games are 'abstractions' of such things (much like sweets are
'abstractions' fruits).

Too bad that current education misses the fact that children have natural
curiosity. And builds the whole system around forcing them to learn or (as
with bad gamifications) tricking them into it.

Sometimes giving opportunity to learn but not forcing it is the best way to
go, see e.g.
[http://www.economist.com/node/18741484](http://www.economist.com/node/18741484).

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stared
It reminds me A Game Of Numbers
[http://agameofnumbers.com/](http://agameofnumbers.com/) (Ludum Dare turned
into a release).

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lxpk
This game is awesome. Backed and looking forward to wearing the shirt!

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thetwiceler
I don't think this is a great idea, for several reasons:

Arithmetic is a very small part of mathematics, and perhaps the least
important. But even as far as arithmetic goes, I don't see this game giving
children a good "number sense". Why are different numbers the same size? If we
don't relate the abstract concept of numbers to counts or sizes, then
arithmetic is just meaningless manipulation of symbols.

Worse, the game doesn't seem open-ended. Children need not figure the answer
out themselves, because they can just try an action and see what happens. I
can see children just trying different actions over and over until they
finally perform the winning combination. And I can also imagine the
possibility of children thinking that they understand a subject when they
really don't (for example, not being able to generalize beyond what they've
seen in the game).

On a much smaller note, I hope the game has more to it than "when the result
is zero, things disappear." For multiplication and division, doesn't it make
more sense for that to be 1?

I don't see a video game like this helping kids to learn math and to _learn to
enjoy_ math. The children like the game because most video games (such as
Mathbreakers, I'd say) are stimulating. What kid doesn't love video games?

So I've been quite a curmudgeon. What _do_ I think kids should do to learn
math in a fun way? I totally agree that games are a great idea. But I think a
game such as the ruler/compass construction game [1] (featured on HN before)
is a much better game. The ruler/compass construction game allows you to
interact with the mathematics in a much more open-ended way than Mathbreakers.
It emphasizes the importance of thinking logically, rather than simply
manipulating symbols. Unlike Mathbreakers, which takes a complex system of
base-10 arithmetic and adds to it even more complex game mechanics, the
geometry game has extremely simple mechanics. You can let children simply play
and come up with their own shapes, or they can try to make certain specific
shapes (the link has several challenges). And the geometry game is deep! With
these simple mechanics, we can encode some of the most interesting and
challenging problems. For example, whether someone can construct a 17-gon [2]
(and if so, how to do so) was only answered by Gauss (in the affirmative) in
1796. (Of course, that's not a puzzle we'd give to children! But how about a
hexagon?)

So really, the geometry game is one that should be appropriate and challenging
for people of all ages and math backgrounds! And it doesn't need to "dress up"
the math with auxiliary puzzles and cartoon characters and 3D worlds. The math
is already interesting as it is.

And finally, from Lockhart's Lament [3]:

    
    
      Simplicio: Then what *should* we do with young children in math class?
    
      Salviati: Play games! Teach them Chess and Go, Hex and 
      Backgammon, Sprouts and Nim, whatever. Make up a game. Do 
      puzzles. Expose them to situations where deductive reasoning
      is necessary. Don’t worry about notation and technique, help
      them to become active and creative mathematical thinkers.
    
    

[1] [http://sciencevsmagic.net/geo/](http://sciencevsmagic.net/geo/) [2]
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heptadecagon](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heptadecagon)
[3]
[http://www.maa.org/external_archive/devlin/LockhartsLament.p...](http://www.maa.org/external_archive/devlin/LockhartsLament.pdf)

~~~
ccvannorman
You make a good argument. As a co-founder, my original vision was to make a
3-D math playground, pure and simple; to visualize math concepts on multiple
levels working together, because I know there is a lot of interplay between
things like algebra, multiplication, primes, geometry, and set theory. But as
a non-genius it's often difficult for me to visualize it.

The best part about working on Mathbreakers for me has been that I HAVE seen
emergent properties. Once, Pascal's triangle appeared because of a repetitive
action you could take with our built-in mechanics, an (a+b) multiplication
gate. It was amazing!

However, we steered towards a narrower and flashier product to stay alive as
an educational games company. Your statement "The math is already interesting
as it is" may be true for some, but convincing an 8 year old that it's as
interesting as Minecraft is not an easy feat.

Re "open ended": making a 3D open ended world that makes sense and doesn't
break is HARD. We're definitely headed there, but it's going to be a journey.

It sounds like you have a similar passion for math as us. I'd love to chat
sometime; maybe you can help us see a clearer path to a better game. :-]

charlie@mathbreakers.com

