
Alexis Ohanian speaks out against “always-on” work culture - petethomas
https://www.wsj.com/articles/always-on-work-culture-creating-broken-people-says-reddit-co-founder-11558464608
======
wastedhours
I don't get "hustle porn" in the slightest - I want to see people who
succeeded by doing the _least possible_.

You have a private jet because you worked 18 hours a day 7 days a week for 10
years? Sacrificed evening meals with your partner and kids, missed spending
time with your parents before they got old, and generally only commit to
"quality time" (which is largely bullshit) for self and social care? Nah
thanks pal.

You're driving that Ferrari because you make something that makes money, you
pay people a decent wage and give them good working conditions to take it all
off your plate so you only spend a few hours a week doing the bits you enjoy?
That's the sizzle right there.

Telling Gary Vee to put a cake in it would be a good start.

~~~
docker_up
Gary Vee is a snake oil salesman. He knows the right things to say and he's
incredibly charismatic. But from a business point of view, his hustle-porn
guru business is way more successful than anything he did previous to that.
Sure he's a successful business person but he wasn't something special. It was
his "motivational talks" that are his real claim to fame, so he's basically
famous for being famous.

~~~
mprev
My anecdote is that people I come across who quote him tend to have a lot of
anxiety and pent-up energy around the idea of wanting to be in business but
they don't have an idea, skill, or plan.

So, the business proverbs they live by both give them hope and amplify their
anxiety that their opportunity is slipping away with each day that they're not
hustling.

~~~
SmellyGeekBoy
> the idea of wanting to be in business but they don't have an idea, skill, or
> plan.

Speaking as someone who just does what he enjoys doing and ended up with a
marginally successful business as a result, I have to say that I genuinely
don't get this mindset.

Then again I don't "hustle" either. I (and my employees) just write code that
solves problems and creates value for bigger businesses and they pay me good
money for it.

------
SolaceQuantum
I find the effects of overwork to be quite interesting- a lack of space for
self makes it impossible to perform actually life enriching behaviors such as
retreats, meditations, socialization, and hobbies. This means there's simply
no room for any other entertainment or enrichment beyond the most
shallow/fast/addictive stuff - social media, twitter wars, the thrill of
buying nice things.

(EDIT: I should emphasize why it's so interesting to me because people often
overwork with the justification for life enrichment, but the actual act of
overworking reduces space/time for life enrichment!

~~~
Sharlin
Conveniently, consuming shiny things and lowest-common-denominator mass media
is what the Western society very much encourages us to do. Work, consume,
repeat.

~~~
esoterica
And it’s still less toxic a hobby than being annoyingly smug on the internet.

~~~
Sharlin
I doubt it's being smug on the internet that has brought us to the brink of a
global ecological disaster.

------
chewz
> “All of us who decide to start a company, we’re kind of broken as people,”
> because founders are often singularly-focused on the success of their
> venture, said Mr. Ohanian. Even with great mentors and investors supporting
> their vision, entrepreneurs tend to put a great deal of pressure on
> themselves to work harder than anyone else to achieve success and
> profitability. That psychological pressure is compounded by what he and
> others refer to as “hustle culture.”

> “You have this culture of posturing, and this culture that glorifies the
> most absurd things and ignores things like self-care, and ignores things
> like therapy, and ignores things like actually taking care of yourself as a
> physical being for the sake of work at all costs. It’s a toxic problem,”
> said Mr. Ohanian.

~~~
turk73
They admit it but don't do anything about it. The very definition of a
psychopath. I have no issue with people who are driven, mind you. The issue is
that it leads to quality of life suffering for everyone in the company as
expectations continue to ramp.

I just don't buy into it anymore. Management where I work attempts to
pressurize people and I just laugh. Yes, the "hustle" culture is right--so
your boss's boss's boss can make $20M last year while you have to cut coupons.

~~~
ryan-allen
Which is, why I wonder, is a VC of (presumably?) tech companies trashing the
hustle culture? If he lends some founders some money, does he want them to be
home to spend time with their kids and their spouse, or is he seeking a
return?

I can't help but think this is just some PR for Alex. Maybe someone can prove
me wrong?

~~~
mbesto
This is basically his content marketing[0]. Whether he believes it or not, it
doesn't matter, because this topic is on trend right now. He's likely taking
what he believes is the most attractive option to early stage entrepreneurs
right now.

[0] - [https://avc.com/2016/08/understanding-
vcs/](https://avc.com/2016/08/understanding-vcs/)

~~~
chrstphrhrt
Dunno, he seems pretty legit in the documentary about Serena and them having
their kid. I don't get a "do as I say not as I do" vibe from watching that,
but who knows.

------
walrus01
I find the idea of working more than 40 hours a week to create something
ultimately optional and meaningless... Just utterly preposterous.

People treat the "crunch" as if it's an epic accomplishment of world shaking
importance to write a slightly better Android food delivery app, or slightly
optimize video ad delivery.

I have worked on networking and IT projects in immediate post-disaster relief
environments, and in active combat zones, where it might be justifiable to
work 12 hours a day, 6 days a week.

But it's just laughable that some corporation expects people to do that for
something which is frivolous. Look at the recent news article about the abuse
of their staff involved in the development of the recent Anthem video game...

[https://kotaku.com/how-biowares-anthem-went-
wrong-1833731964](https://kotaku.com/how-biowares-anthem-went-
wrong-1833731964)

~~~
everdrive
Most of the tech companies these days speak in terms of "revolutionizing," or
"reinventing," or "re-imagining," and it's all fluff. I don't even suspect
this is strictly deceptive. I think people (and founders in particular) are
starving to be meaningful and important. They need it in their lives. And so,
they tend to describe their work aspirationally. Claims such "No one's ever do
this before" will accompany a website that sells goods and services. People
are clamoring to be important, and aren't really sure how to get it.

------
temp99990
Maybe this is a bit cynical but is this not like if the CEO of Pepsi spoke out
against sugar?

He and his VC partner are both YC-insiders. I don’t necessarily follow his
tweets as much as his partner’s but his partner tweets are what I’d call
classical hustle porn tweets that he spews all the time. And YC is almost
certainly the epi-center of hustle porn.

------
code4tee
The “hustle porn” is also quite frequently a coverup or distraction from
general failure at other parts of life. Those that are super successful in
perhaps their career but have no personal life, no partner, no kids, no real
existence outside of their company tend to be quite boring people. These types
keep promoting themselves and their “hard work” but it seems lost on them that
others aren’t really all that impressed.

Those that are super impressive and truly accomplished are the ones that have
successful careers but also have actual lives with families and a real life.
Doing both well and not stressing out is a true accomplishment worth
celebrating and promoting.

------
caseyw
I worked for years in a role that was "always-on". To the point it cost me
more than I gained. I've lost years of my life through that experience, and
only towards the end could see the toxicity of it all. I'm finally free with a
healthy work life balance and can't understand what I was thinking, if I was
thinking anything at all.

~~~
toomuchtodo
Congrats on the escape. Champion the idea of shedding toxic employment to
others.

------
ForTheBetter
While certainly true, statements like these fail to ignore why tech folk grind
so hard-- because if they don't and someone else does then they are at an
objective disadvantage. That's not to say that means they cannot or will not
succeed, but if one tech founder is working 60 hours a week versus 40 hours a
week (assuming they are both efficient) then there is a clear advantage.

If your going to hustle, do it young when you don't have responsibility. Don't
be the dude with a kid missing dinners and school plays. But if I'm young and
want to grind to build something I'm passionate about then I don't think that
is so wrong or toxic-- just don't fucking post about it on social media.

~~~
mtberatwork
> ...but if one tech founder is working 60 hours a week versus 40 hours a week
> (assuming they are both efficient) then there is a clear advantage.)

There really isn't a clear advantage here either since no one is achieving
100% efficiency like that week after week. [1]

[1] [https://hbr.org/2015/08/the-research-is-clear-long-hours-
bac...](https://hbr.org/2015/08/the-research-is-clear-long-hours-backfire-for-
people-and-for-companies)

~~~
Raidion
Efficiency isn't the metric people care about on either side of the equation
though. Management only cares about results. If you work 3 hours at 100%
efficiency, 5 at 75% and 3 at 50%, that's still more results than working 4 at
100% and 4 at 75%. On the other side of the equation, the worker gets to see
and handle more technology with the longer hours, which make them more
attractive in interviews. If you're working 50 hours of week instead of 40,
even with productivity hits, you're still "gaining" a week of experience
roughly every month. That means at 2 years, you're actually at almost 3 years
of experience, and that pays off. Repeat this for a few more years, and the
difference adds up and matters.

I'm not advocating for that lifestyle at all, but there is something to be
said for just having more time with code. You obviously need to have an
endgame plan, as staying at one company often doesn't scale your career, but
if that 2nd year dev is able to get a prime spot because of his extra "year"
of experience, and repeat a few times... There is money to be made.

------
notacoward
It's a tragedy of the commons, where the commons is our individual and
collective mental health. Working your ass off might be an individually
rational choice, but even if that's true (opinions definitely vary) the result
of _everybody_ doing it is a significantly crappier society.

------
TomMasz
My last job was managing product security for a company that has customers
worldwide. The first and last things every single day I did was check my email
on my phone, weekends and holidays. When I got out of the job my health
greatly improved to the point where I had my blood pressure medication
lowered. "Always-on" is a killer.

------
drugme
"Always-on" can kind of sort of work out, for a couple of years -- provided
all 3 of the following simple conditions are met:

(1) You're getting a decent base + health insurance

(2) The equity is in proportion to the sacrifice (this can be difficult to
quantify; but in any case not a microscopic share of the pie); and

(3) You actually have some say in (and responsibility over) the outcomes.

(4) And of course you aren't throwing anyone under the bus in your family or
personal life.

On of the reasons our industry is so toxic is that you're expected to be
"always on" even though there's not even a pretense of (2) or (3) being met --
and quite often the numbers for condition (1) are sketchy, or far worse.

------
KaiserPro
The fundamental engine of growth in the economy is the continual increase in
productivity.

that is the increase of unit of work per staff head.

Having staff work hard, not smart lowers productivity, and therefore profit.

For example uber:

IF they were a company capable of making a profit, it is because currently
they have a virtually staff free monitoring and dispatch system (that is, no
branch offices, no radio dispatcher, no mechanics etc.)

However thats only a small part of thier overheads. The vast majority comes
from paying their drivers. Adding more drivers adds cost linearly.

However if they were to somehow manage to perfect driverless cars, their
productivity would smash through the roof, as they can replace linear cost
increases with an upfront capital cost (ie, buy loads of self driving cars
instead of paying a per mile cost.)

If you are working your staff 996, not only are they going to burn out, they
are going to be inefficient. There are legions of studies that date back to
the early 1900s that prove this. In china there is an abundance of staff, so
one does not need to worry, as if you burn out 35% a year, they can always be
replaced, cheaply.

but you can't afford to do that if you have a limited talent pool.

------
dnissley
Recently heard a good ted talk and good podcast with Andrew Taggart who is
using the term "Total Work" to describe this phenomena.

He leans a lot on this old german book called "Leisure: The Basis of Culture",
and asks the question "Why do we work?" His answer is that work should be a
means to an end, and that end is to be able to lead a life where we engage
fully with love, art, philosophy, and spirituality. This seems to me to be a
bit too tightly defined, but definitely made me think more intentionally about
what it is I'm living for.

Ted Talk: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F7UonZl-
Gis](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F7UonZl-Gis)

Podcast: [https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/andrew-taggart-
philoso...](https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/andrew-taggart-
philosophizing-in-the-age-of-total-work/id1397139116?i=1000435020386)

------
merricksb
Paywall bypass link:

[https://www.wsj.com/articles/always-on-work-culture-
creating...](https://www.wsj.com/articles/always-on-work-culture-creating-
broken-people-says-reddit-co-founder-11558464608?mod=rsswn)

------
itamarst
Based purely on chewz' quote, since paywall: the problem isn't just the impact
on founders, it's all the employees who get screwed as a result of the
founders' misguided beliefs.

If the person on top works long hours, they pressure their underlings to work
long hours in a whole bunch of different ways
([https://codewithoutrules.com/2017/06/21/why-company-want-
lon...](https://codewithoutrules.com/2017/06/21/why-company-want-long-
hours/)).

See also JWZ on VCs:
[https://web.archive.org/web/20190425140352/https://www.jwz.o...](https://web.archive.org/web/20190425140352/https://www.jwz.org/blog/2011/11/watch-
a-vc-use-my-name-to-sell-a-con/)

(Updated with archive.org link)

~~~
ddebernardy
FYI the JWZ link redirects to
[http://i.imgur.com/32R3qLv.png](http://i.imgur.com/32R3qLv.png) when HN is
the referrer and you've never visited the site.

~~~
itamarst
Interesting. I switched to an archive.org link.

------
thegranderson
Full Text: ALWAYS-ON WORK CULTURE CREATING ‘BROKEN’ PEOPLE, SAYS REDDIT CO-
FOUNDER

Alexis Ohanian speaks out against toxicity of ‘hustle porn’ that glorifies
‘most absurd things’

Alexis Ohanian, venture investor and husband of tennis superstar Serena
Williams, loves getting asked how he balances family life and his career as
managing partner of Initialized Capital.

He and Ms. Williams became first-time parents in 2017, and in the months that
followed, Mr. Ohanian frequently spoke out about why it was so important for
him to take time away from the Bay Area firm he co-founded to bond with their
daughter.

Parental leave wasn’t only a fun way to spend 16 weeks with their newborn
Alexis Olympia Jr., he said at The Wall Street Journal’s Future of Everything
Festival on Tuesday, but it was also a reminder of why work should never be
the only metric for measuring success.

“I’ve spoken out quite a bit about things like ‘hustle porn,’ and this
ceremony of showing off on social [media] about how hard you’re working,” said
Mr. Ohanian, who previously co-founded online discussion forum Reddit. “Y’all
see it on Instagram and you certainly see it in the startup community, and it
becomes really toxic.”

Business men in his position are rarely asked about juggling the requirements
of their roles outside of work, like in their family, he said, and that
contributes to unrealistic expectations that a job can reflect the entirety of
anyone’s identity as a human being.

“All of us who decide to start a company, we’re kind of broken as people,”
because founders are often singularly-focused on the success of their venture,
said Mr. Ohanian. Even with great mentors and investors supporting their
vision, entrepreneurs tend to put a great deal of pressure on themselves to
work harder than anyone else to achieve success and profitability. That
psychological pressure is compounded by what he and others refer to as “hustle
culture.”

“You have this culture of posturing, and this culture that glorifies the most
absurd things and ignores things like self-care, and ignores things like
therapy, and ignores things like actually taking care of yourself as a
physical being for the sake of work at all costs. It’s a toxic problem,” said
Mr. Ohanian.

This issue isn’t limited to technology companies, he added, noting that his
acquaintances in finance and other industries also promote an unhealthy
attitude that encourages 12-hour work days and few breaks.

“Social media has made it possible to weaponize it to the point where, if
[bragging about your difficult workweek] gets hearts, you’re incentivized to
keep pushing” the limits.

------
purple-again
Can some kind soul provide the body of the text for us poor souls or
instructions for how to access the article? No luck with the web button or
outline.com.

~~~
Etheryte
I don't really see why it's okay to submit paywalled articles to HN to begin
with. Either a) someone finds an open source for it, which the OP should've
done instead or b) only a small subset of the users can actually access the
content being discussed.

~~~
dougmwne
I find the paywalls on NYT and WSJ a bit bizzare to begin with, especially now
that they're closing the loopholes to read an article now and then. Certainly
any business has the right to charge for its content, but as newsrooms have
shrunk and journalists have been retrained for the clickbait era, these
articles are typically worthless fluff or outrage porn. Though I can't
actually read this article, I assume that the catchy title references a breif
moment from an interview, not a deep cultural analysis. I would pay for the
latter, but not the former.

~~~
mcv
> _I assume that the catchy title references a breif moment from an interview,
> not a deep cultural analysis._

That assumption is correct.

------
skilled
Actually, another way to look at it is, are you going inside work culture as a
broken person? Meaning, do you have a choice to be healthy and balanced in
life? And if you don't, what is standing in the way of that?

If the answer is "hustle", then you ought to take responsibility rather than
crying about it.

~~~
skilled
Aww, the HN crowd couldn't take a pinch of salt in their sugary sweet dream.

