
Toxic management cost an award-winning game studio its best developers - snake117
https://www.theverge.com/2018/3/20/17130056/telltale-games-developer-layoffs-toxic-video-game-industry
======
itamarst
The extra terrible thing is that this is completely counter-productive. E.g.
see this takedown of crunch time by someone who works in the game industry:
[http://www.igda.org/?page=crunchsixlessons](http://www.igda.org/?page=crunchsixlessons)

But this is a problem outside the game industry too, though it sounds like
they're even worse than usual. If you're a software engineer stuck in one of
these jobs, you need to realize working fewer hours is good for you _and_ your
employer. More here: [https://codewithoutrules.com/2016/08/18/productive-
programme...](https://codewithoutrules.com/2016/08/18/productive-programmer/)

~~~
vvanders
Yup, it's an endemic problem that has no sign of going away due to the
constant influx of young people willing to take it on the nose to get into the
industry.

Ironically if you look at Gamasutra's yearly survey you see a huge cliff of
experience right at the ~3 year mark as those people get burned out and the
cycle repeats.

~~~
scruple
> due to the constant influx of young people willing to take it on the nose to
> get into the industry.

I mean, I guess. I'm in my late 30s and I just got sucked in to a project that
was behind schedule by miles to try to meet an impossible deadline. The
expectation seems to be that the 90 hour week I had last week is going to be
repeated again this week and, most likely, also next week, come hell or high
water, and any sort of common sense or evidence about how short-sighed this
effort is be damned. I like my job, for the most part, but this has me
considering my options.

My point is, I see this as an upper management issue. I can't fault people,
including myself, for doing what we have to do to keep the paychecks rolling
in, and especially when the power dynamics are as uneven as they are. You are
right that younger people (and, also, let's not forget our friends in this
industry on work visas) are less capable of dealing with the issue than
veterans. But, from my point of view, it's not us who are wrong. Instead, it's
the management chain who is unaccountable to their bad planning, poor decision
making, etc... who create this situation.

~~~
s73v3r_
That's why people are calling for a guild. A way so that developers can push
back against this, and not have to worry about being fired.

~~~
scruple
I'd love to have something of a union to back us up, I honestly don't see any
way to improve the situation otherwise.

~~~
VRay
I think a lot of the HN crowd has enough experience and clout to keep from
getting exploited, but I'd personally love to be a part of a large union where
I can help mentor junior engineers and get help in turn from more senior ones.

I think beyond shared negotiation, what a union could really help with is
managing younger engineers' careers. I stuck around in a bad first job way too
long because I just didn't have enough experience or exposure to successful
engineers to realize how crappy my job really was.

------
ashleyn
I dunno what it is about the gaming industry relative to other software-
related industries, but they have a horrid reputation for effectively treating
employees as disposable.

Not coincidentally, a _lot_ of games end up having technical problems from the
constant rush.

~~~
RobLach
People romanticize working in games and are exploited for it. Once you realize
the string allocator you’re coding isn’t much different than the one that
other person working on enterprise software is making, but you’re getting paid
1/2 what they are and on deadlines dictated by a calendar based on $200
million worth of marketing decisions, you jump ship only to have your void
filled by someone exactly like you a couple years more novice.

~~~
vvanders
Yup, the pay thing is a double edged sword too because most studios are
usually in high CoL locations.

When I left the industry it was an instant 2x income increase. I went from
paycheck to paycheck to being able to actually afford living in the Seattle
area.

I remember running the numbers on the hours I was working at my salary rate
and realized that I would have been better off flipping burgers instead. It
wasn't the breaking point but it definitely was a contributing factor.

~~~
mfoy_
I don't think the double-edged sword is the metaphor you're looking for... in
that, at least one edge is working for you. :p

------
jdlyga
The trick is working for companies doing 3D application development that's not
related to games. I've never had a job where management treated us like this
in almost a decade so far.

~~~
ethbro
This is one thing I've never understood. For almost any skill set, there are
multiple industries you could work in.

And furthermore, the industry with the worst treatment of employees is likely
not the best paying (given that bad treatment tends to stem from popularity /
availability of naive new employees).

So, if you don't like your work life... find a related industry!

~~~
s73v3r_
But that's a pretty terrible suggestion. It should not be required to change
industries to be treated with basic human dignity.

~~~
ethbro
Working conditions are a product of three variables:

Employee supply * employer demand * legal regulations

If supply and demand aren't going to change in your industry... expecting
conditions to change is a long wait for a bus that's not coming.

~~~
s73v3r_
That's great and all, but that's still extremely evil.

~~~
annabellish
Right, but, capitalism. The only ways to change the behaviour of companies is
either legally mandating them to do something (which has a decent hit rate),
or starving them of employees willing to put up with their shit.

Nothing else works. Evil would be the word we would use to describe a person
behaving as amorally as companies are expected to behave.

~~~
MsMowz
Those are not the only two options.

------
dotsh
This is what I call a full of shit company. People will stab you in a back to
work for those but when they are there they start to realise how rotten it is.
Then it's too late for them as they are getting into the Stockholm syndrome.
Afraid to go, being pushed around because they do not believe they can do
something better somewhere else and such CEOs take advantage of the situation
to use them as much as possible and throw them away like a used condom.

I hate this and it is not worth wasting life working for such companies or
such people even for one day.

------
lkrubner
We need more of this kind of honest writing. In the tech world, we tend to use
euphemisms to talk about this kind of destructive behavior. Go to a Meetup
full of VCs and they say stuff like "Oh, that startup died because of team
dysfunction."

Well, okay, but what does team dysfunction actually look like? How ugly does
it get? Why does it happen?

Self-sabotage is remarkably common. We all know the failure rate of startups
is very high. The estimates I've read vary, but they are all in the range of
80% to 90%. And clearly, much of the failure comes from suicide, not homicide.
That is, the startup isn't out maneuvered by a giant like Google, but rather,
it fails because of its own internal flaws.

The essay "Why do entrepreneurs engage in self-sabotage" is on this theme:

[http://www.smashcompany.com/business/why-do-entrepreneurs-
en...](http://www.smashcompany.com/business/why-do-entrepreneurs-engage-in-
self-sabotage)

------
Cyberdog
Between reading the link title and the page loading, I had a little fun
guessing which studio it was going to be about. EA? Konami? Ubisoft? Nope, I
was wrong. But there are just so many possibilities…

Thank goodness we're in something of a golden age of indie gaming. If you want
to vote with your wallet against all these toxic AAA charnel houses, you have
plenty of other quality choices to waste your time with.

By the way, no gamers take game awards shows seriously.

------
diego_moita
Sorry but the way this article describes this Kevin Bruner and its' "toxic
management" sounds very close to how people describe Steve Jobs: egocentric,
abusive and a micro-manager.

What distinguishes a toxic manager from a leader, then?

Edit: a phrase from the article: "This was one of the biggest issues with him
as a CEO: he was pretty convinced that his taste was everyone’s taste."

~~~
fsloth
Steve Jobs the manager went through several iterations. The terminal model was
an opinionated manager who listened, respected and promoted those who could
argue against him.

Yes, was probably horrible in many ways. It's sad his asshole image clouds
everything that was good in his management side and people thinj they need to
act like assholes to emulate him. The asshole part was a pathology, not a
feature, but perhaps an inseparable part of him as a person.

~~~
14113
> and promoted those who could argue against him.

I've worked with managers like this, and although it might work for some, it
was hell for me. Having to constantly argue to defend your ideas is draining,
soul destroying, depressing, and lead to me burning out multiple times.
Discussing and critiquing ideas should not involve force from either the
idea's champion, nor who they are pitching it to. If, at the end of the day,
you're evaluating ideas based on the force by which they're presented all you
end up with is ideas that support being presented and defended forcefully -
not deftly, nor intelligently.

~~~
fsloth
"I've worked with managers like this, and although it might work for some, it
was hell for me. "

In that context argumentation is merely an unskilled testosterone filled show
of force. I would hate that as well.

That's a bit limited view of argument. Argument is not necessary a fight, or a
show of force, but merely two sides defending their view and trying to
persuade others.

True teams use argument as a daily tool to reach - not consensus - but an
agreed path forward that all respect. Everyone agrees to a "disagree and
commit" policy where they whole heartedly proceed on the agreed course and see
where it will take them.

The argumentation part is critical to reach this commitment level. Unless
everyone has a chance to defend their view, commitment to disagreeable
strategies is lower.

If this disassembly of group psychology is unfamiliar I can whole heartedly
recommend Patrick Lencioni's "Five dysfunctions of a team".

That said, I have no idea of the quality and nature of late Mr. Jobs version
of argumentation.

------
dandersh
In my experience demands for working > 40 hours, nights, weekends, etc. almost
always comes from management and planning failures.

What makes this scenario occur so often is that the business side wields too
much power when it comes to culture, estimates, technical decision making,
etc. For them you solve a problem by throwing more time at it and passing
responsibility when possible (along with a few extra meetings, for good
measure). Not only does this approach work poorly for development, but they
are often the "final stop" in the product lifecycle, thus making it impossible
to avoid taking responsibility, even for others work (like, say, for
incomplete or nonexistent requirements).

Perhaps worst of all is that surviving these crunches makes things worse as
the wrong lessons are learned and the process continues to repeat itself as
those who push for change become disgruntled and leave.

Personally I've noticed a correlation between the pushing of "team culture"
and toxic environments like this. The most egregious example of this was when
it was suggested that I work unpaid on the weekend to "complete the sprint
work as a TEAM."

~~~
sdrothrock
> Personally I've noticed a correlation between the pushing of "team culture"
> and toxic environments like this. The most egregious example of this was
> when it was suggested that I work unpaid on the weekend to "complete the
> sprint work as a TEAM."

The military has known for a very long time that [group] loyalty is absolutely
necessary to get people to do things that they wouldn't normally do (for
better or for worse), whether it's working extra hard, putting in more hours
than usual, treating other groups as enemies, or even, yes, killing other
people. The Stanford Prison experiment was a pretty good example of this in a
bad way.

This quote from Australian Defense Corps training also shows an understanding
of this principle: "Willingness to apply lethal force requires . . .
sufficient bonding within the team to override each individual’s natural human
resistance to kill. The toughness and bonding required increases the closer
the contact with the enemy." [1]

So I wouldn't be surprised if team building exercises etc. were encouraged not
only because of the actual productive results, but also because it's at least
implicitly known to raise the boundaries of what individuals are willing to
do.

[1] McGurk; et al. (2006). 'Joining the ranks: The role of indoctrination in
transforming civilians to service members', (in 'Military life: The psychology
of serving in peace and combat [vol. 2]'). Westport: Praeger Security
International. -- snagged from Reddit:
[https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/853218/in_bo...](https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/853218/in_boot_camp_recruits_to_the_military_are/dvux36v/)

Edit: Even being aware of these kinds of tactics doesn't do much to help as
the tactics (and stress and lack of sleep) themselves wear down your
resistance to them and affect your ability to make decent decisions.

------
LifeLiverTransp
Nothing is going to change, there are to many stars in to many programers
eyes, when they here games-industry. They literally can afford to burn the
best talent, knowing it grows on tree for cheap for them.

Its the same thing why model agents can harass or molest young woman, while
they literally allmost starve to death to be in a industry they can only work
in for 15 years and will never earn more then the basics to live.

These actors are irrational, and there is a cornucopia providing new ones.

Best idea to dry this swamp is for other industries who lack talent- to
provide a dual path- meaning- if you come to work for us, we will teach you
also the tools of the game-design trade- and provide you with a chance to
parallel realize the game of your dream in a sabatical.

~~~
kakarot
Creating a modern full-fledged "game of your dreams", even if not AAA, can
take years if not decades when you're going alone. People join development
studios so that they actually have the chance of finishing a project in a
reasonable timeframe and so that they can focus on one or two disciplines.

~~~
LifeLiverTransp
You are totally right- it takes decades.

But lets face it - in a company- there are two or three people doing the game-
design, the others usually get not even a chance to contribute.

They are put into a silo, connected to a part of the pipeline and start
crunching until the ilusion wears off. Even if you get a chance to realize a
idea- in a modern title, the fear of risk, sees to any new concept that it is
marginalized.

So even if it takes years, i think by now, its far more realistic to produce a
title as a indy dev or open source dev by now.

Had I the heaven's embroidered cloths,

Enwrought with golden and silver light,

The blue and the dim and the dark cloths

Of night and light and the half-light;

I would spread the cloths under your feet:

But I, being poor, have only my dreams;

I have spread my dreams under your feet;

Tread softly because you tread on my dreams.

------
e3b0c
I think this has something to do with the so-called Parkinson's law, where an
organization tends to "corrupt" when it is growing its headcount if its top
leader is not aware of it.

I used to work for a startup which has a 'flexible' working time culture too.
It was not that bad until the company grew its size to an extent that the
middle management layer was established. Then all the shit exactly like what a
typical Parkinson's law story happened.

Edit:
[https://www.economist.com/node/14116121](https://www.economist.com/node/14116121)

------
mmjaa
I've floated around the Game industry as a developer, and I have to say its
one of the most toxic management industries I've seen. Too many times I've
seen folks who just don't qualify, running developer teams like its some sort
of feudal village .. the inclination towards prejudice and bigotry is just too
damned high.

I wonder why it is that this industry in particular has such a problem with
toxic management? My personal theory is that its because games are
fundamentally a total decadence, and decadence just brings out the worst in
humans ..

------
GFischer
Insecure managers are a plague and I'm very glad I'm no longer working under
one.

"A real leader is thrilled when team members achieve great things. A mere
manager is threatened."

------
gtirloni
_> For others, the inevitable outcome of what sources familiar with the
company describe as years of a culture that promoted constant overwork, toxic
management, and ~creative stagnation~_

Having never worked in the game industry, I have a very naive view of what is
the day-to-day of game developers. Being inherently creative work, what would
_creative stagnation_ look like in this case?

~~~
WorldMaker
It's somewhat described in the article.

Sleep deprived/overworked people have less creative energy (all sorts of
productivity studies prove this over and over again). Poorly managed people
watching their flanks for toxic attacks at their ideas allow themselves less
creative freedom.

~~~
meheleventyone
Also stuff like having someone else habitually take credit is less than
inspiring to bring forward your best work.

------
bg4
Toxic management costs all shops its best developers. Why are they not
considered a direct threat to ROI?

~~~
humanrebar
The toxic managers know how to negotiate politics and bureaucracy.

[http://brucefwebster.com/2008/04/15/the-wetware-crisis-
the-t...](http://brucefwebster.com/2008/04/15/the-wetware-crisis-the-
themocline-of-truth/)

~~~
bg4
Thanks for this article.

------
theshrike79
I work 37.5 hours a week, maybe a bit more if I want to bank some hours for a
vacation.

Of that, maybe 30 hours is actual productive work. Dunno who thought that a
software designer can actually produce useful stuff for 90 hours a week.

------
ePierre
French newspapers Mediapart and Canard PC have teamed up and released a bunch
of articles about the video game industry and its toxic practices.

The articles are available online [1] but they're in French and some of them
are behind a paywall.

The situation got to the point where a labor union for video games creators, «
Le Syndicat des Travailleurs et Travailleuses du Jeu Vidéo » (STJV) [2], was
created in France last year. There are currently around 70 members (out of
5000+ video game related employees in France). A strike is currently on-going
in Eugen Systems [3], a French studio author of RTS games like Steel Division.

[1] [https://www.canardpc.com/online/crunch-
investigation](https://www.canardpc.com/online/crunch-investigation) (French)

[2] [https://www.stjv.fr/en/](https://www.stjv.fr/en/) (English)

[3] [https://www.stjv.fr/en/2018/03/already-more-than-3-weeks-
on-...](https://www.stjv.fr/en/2018/03/already-more-than-3-weeks-on-strike-at-
eugen-systems/) (English)

------
milankragujevic
Hmm, I expected this to be about Squad, the makers of Kerbal Space Program...

------
k__
Isn't this normal and the reason for the rise of indie games?

People want do make games, but they don't want to be crunched into oblivion,
so they leave theae studios, go indie and do their own stuff...

------
personjerry
Isn't this what happened to Kerbal Space Program too?

------
cryptonector
Toxicity also loses gamers.

------
horsecaptin
Fool me once, shame on me. Fool me twice, shame on you. I'm starting to think
that game developers enjoy their toxic work environment until they finally
realize that it is taking a toll. By then, they find that they're often stuck
/ lack the confidence to move on.

~~~
sp332
They definitely move on, or at least drop out. But there are always more to
replace them, so the company doesn't feel a lot of pressure to change.

~~~
nailer
Fashion industry is similar: so many inexperienced twenty year olds would do
the job for free. So conditions are poor and people get paid a pittance. Why
have one experienced person when you could get 10 x 22 year olds?

