
The lightbulb reinvented - shimms
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/limemouse/lifx-the-light-bulb-reinvented
======
ForrestN
From an efficiency/sustainability point of view, I have a basic discomfort
with the idea of throwing away all the wifi/controller stuff each time you
need a new bulb. I know LEDs don't run out very fast, but they do run out.
This has cost implications too.

What about a setup where there are two levels of screw: the LED bulb screws
into a fixture with the wifi stuff inside, which then screws into the light
fixture? Then when the bulb goes out, you can just unscrew the LEDs without
having to throw away all the other components.

Maybe there's something I'm missing though; I am by no means knowledgable
about electronics.

~~~
INTPenis
No, I agree. This idea is braindead because it's much more effective to focus
on a device you plug in between the outlet in your wall and the devices you
want to control power to. A standard already exists for half the project which
is called x10.

~~~
angusgr
Have you ever worked with X10? It's a standard finalised in 1975, and this
shows.

Take a look under "Commands getting lost", "Relatively slow", "Limited
functionality", "Interference and lack of encryption" for a quick overview:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X10_(industry_standard)#Limita...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X10_\(industry_standard\)#Limitations)

Certainly there are good things about having a standard for home automation,
but there are many good reasons for not adopting X10.

(I take heart in the fact this project has some committed hacker types
involved with it, Andy Gelme was a founder of the Melbourne hackerspace and I
absolutely believe the Kickstarter project when it says the device will have a
specified API and be hackable. Not an open standard, but at least
interopable.)

------
bhousel
I like the idea of "f.lux for my house". Might improve my sleeping. This part
of the project is potentially _life-altering_.

Lots of people in the comments are getting hung up on the "control your lights
over wifi" aspect of this project, which is far less interesting. INSTEON is
(AFAIK) the current best solution for home automation, and already does this
pretty well: <http://www.insteon.net/>

It's backwards compatible with X10, uses both powerline and RF to send control
signals, and each INSTEON device also functions as a repeater, so you're far
less likely to run into poor signal issues that plagued X10.

~~~
waxjar
You could achieve a f.lux for your house with a timed dimmer, I think.

~~~
drifkin
Lowering the brightness helps, but there's more to it than that. Changing the
color temperature is one of the cool features of both f.lux and this bulb. The
idea is a warmer color temperature at night acts less like the sun.

~~~
waxjar
Ah, I hadn't thought about that. I was about to write off this bulb as utterly
ridiculous, but this might actually be useful for people with sleep problems.

------
eps
This. Is. Featurebloat.

Seriously, color changing? Dimming? Make a simple natural light bulb, a
smartphone app and a wifi wall switch. Latter is far _far_ more important than
an ability to drown my kitchen in a shade of green. Keep it useful, damn it.
Not a single home automation company gets this. Usability is a key to
adoption.

~~~
dave5104
For a good portion of the video, I was thinking the same exact thing. I can't
see the average person either needing or even /wanting/ most of those
features. From a work perspective, I want to turn my lights on. And I want to
turn them off. That's it.

I think the part of the video that really demonstrated where money will be
made was when he spent 5 seconds saying "Lifx has commercial applications as
well." Now there I can see all these features being useful. (But I suppose
tailoring a Kickstarter video towards restaurant/club/bar owners wouldn't net
as much capital. :P)

~~~
anigbrowl
The popularity of dimmer switches suggests that your tastes are far from
universal. Also, Ikea has a range of color-adjustable LED lights, and they
seem to fly off the shelves.

------
meanguy
The home automation market has been an utter disaster for decades. I hoped the
"green" movement would nudge it mainstream. Not yet, and Google even killed
off their home electricity monitoring projects.

Here's a similar product:

<http://www.smarthome.com/2672-222/INSTEON-LED-Bulb/p.aspx>

No color change capability and requires some other stuff as part of the
system, but once you start turning on lightbulbs you quickly realize you need
relays and sensors to control other things, too. So then you want a "system."
And the systems currently suck.

~~~
mbell
> And the systems currently suck.

The stuff that gets pitched to consumers for self install is pretty terrible.

When I was in high school I used to work as an electrician for a
security/fire/cctv/home automation company. I remember doing a brand new
summer house for a CEO of some large corp in roughly 1999-2000 time frame.
Even then everything in the house was controlled via low volage relay.
Outlets, lights, dimmers, curtains, everything. Each room had a iPad like
touch panel on the wall that controlled the entire thing.

There are actually some really good systems out there, they just require that
you considered it when you built the house to wire for it ahead of time or go
through a costly retrofit. Also the 'best' systems were not that simple to
setup. They weren't designed for the user to install so the configuration
would often involve punching hexadecimal codes into a controller down in the
basement to get the initial setup correct.

------
BryanB55
I like it. Not that I want my entire house to be purple and green but they
mentioned something about changing the light color when receiving a
notification. I'm thinking it would be cool to have the light on my desk turn
to red when Pingdom reports one of my websites offline. Or to have the lights
flash red when my security cameras report motion.

~~~
pavel_lishin
The second thing I would do with this is hook up a voice recognition gadget,
and program the system to turn every bulb red when it heard me say "Red
alert."

------
buster
@title: Why does it explicitely mention the iPhone alone... like it was the
only important gadget.. (yes the page says iPhone and Android). "from your
smartphone" would have been better

~~~
shimms
Yeah good point - pitty I can't edit it.

------
tomkin
Unfortunately, I know from working on my own smarthome project that the "turn
lights on or off based on location" is patented and secured already.

~~~
Wistar
I think Color Kinetics has locked up almost everything useful with RGB LED
arrays.

~~~
dakrisht
I'm assuming the LIFX did their due-diligence and attained "freedom to
operate" before undergoing this venture - or is "assumption the mother of all
f-ups"?

~~~
ChuckMcM
Strangely most people who come up with these sorts of ideas independently
usually operate with one of two perspectives:

1) I know I thought of this idea so I've got a right to use it.

2) This idea is pretty obvious, it just hasn't had anyone willing to implement
it.

Both of which give the implementer a false sense of security. People who've
done this once or twice and been hit on the head by the stupid patent hammer,
will look around to see if anyone has done something similar, especially 15 -
20 years ago, and if they can create a credible path to their idea which
doesn't involve things that are patented. Then they file a provisional patent
to be sure they don't get stomped on.

~~~
pbhjpbhj
When I saw <http://www.smarthome.com/2672-222/INSTEON-LED-Bulb/p.aspx> up-
thread I wondered immediately whether the ribs were functional as they
otherwise might be infringing on a design patent for the bulb, looks very
similar to me. If there are patents on the Insteon implementation seems highly
likely they'd be generalised to independent wifi networked devices.

Looks like the Insteon needs a controller but you can have 3 smartphone
controlled lights (3x$30 + $99 controller) using their system now for the
price of the $196 pledge (which gives you 4 bulbs).

Doesn't mean that it's not worthwhile, just that there may be roadblocks
ahead.

~~~
ChuckMcM
Wow, that light looks very similar, I wondered if there was a design patent so
I just did an 'Insteon' search on the USPTO database [1]. Could be a challenge
ahead [2].

[1] [http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-
Parser?Sect1=PTO2&Sec...](http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-
Parser?Sect1=PTO2&Sect2=HITOFF&p=1&u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsearch-
bool.html&r=0&f=S&l=50&TERM1=Insteon&FIELD1=&co1=AND&TERM2=&FIELD2=&d=PTXT)

[2] [http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-
Parser?Sect1=PTO2&Sec...](http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-
Parser?Sect1=PTO2&Sect2=HITOFF&p=1&u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsearch-
bool.html&r=25&f=G&l=50&co1=AND&d=PTXT&s1=Insteon&OS=Insteon&RS=Insteon)

------
noonespecial
You guys need to expose a simple API so that I can program a home server to
control many lights. Navigating a different screen for each light in my house
would be a pain. You're essentially recreating part of the X10 ecosystem with
wifi. At this point you should just buy a bunch if x10 and reimplent the
features. They've had nearly 30 years to explore how people use this stuff.

------
Wistar
If you had a few of these in your house a an iPhone camera app could be made
that controls the lights so that you could compose the shot and the lighting.
It could even briefly brighten the lights like a flash setup for just the
duration of the exposure. That way the lighting needed for the moment of the
shot needn't interfere with the ambience of the room.

Interesting things could be done by having lighting shifts programmed to
change during video shots, too.

~~~
m0nastic
You might be interested in this other product that does what you're talking
about: <http://riftlabs.com/kick-overview-betterpics/> (it was also on
Kickstarter).

I'm not affiliated with them, but I was super impressed and eagerly await
buying a bunch.

------
gkoberger
I wonder if it can be paired to multiple phones? Otherwise you'll end up with
only one person who can turn the lights on or off.

~~~
pflats
They say they have mac/pc apps as well. I'd assume anyone on the local network
could control the lights, probably with optional password protection?

------
stinos
nice idea, but unfortunately I do not see this becoming 'big' for a couple of
reasons. For instance, even though one can buy LEDs advertised as having a
'warm' colour, the light produced is still rather harsh compared to halogen
for instance. Most people do not want an entire house, or even a single room,
lighted purely by LEDs. Same goes for the colour: on paper it's nice to read
that colour can set a certain mood and such, but is there really any practical
use? Who wants to sit in a blue/green/red room anyway? Another factor is that
it seems to be a small subset of an actual existing but practical system:
current domotica systems can be controlled by your smartphone, by a pc, over
the internet, you name it. And there are already dozens of them.

~~~
jrockway
My bedroom is lit by LEDs and it's fine. I also use a big 17W bulb as a table
lamp and it's often the only light I have turned on in my apartment. It works
almost as well as my big 6x40W halogen fixture. (Though obviously the halogen
light is much brighter, there is "enough" light either way for things like
walking around, getting dressed, etc.)

The only problem is that I think the color rendering index must be pretty bad.
When I'm only using the table lamp, everything feels black-and-white like it
does at night under sodium lamps.

I otherwise have a bunch of halogen lights, and they aren't that great either.
I'm beginning to think it was a little early to ban incandescent lamps.

~~~
meanguy
The poor color rendering is what the comment above you is talking about. If a
bulb makes your wood walls look funny and the picture of your girlfriend on
the desk look like an alien, it's not going to go mainstream. Especially if it
costs $50.

Mike Herf (of Picasa/F.lux fame) wrote some articles when CFLs were going to
solve everything, you know, three years ago. Applies to LEDs as well. His wife
is a painter. Let their struggle be your guide:

<http://stereopsis.com/fullspectrum/>

~~~
ChuckMcM
Great link, definitely worth reading.

------
coenhyde
This would be great for connecting up to a CI server or monitoring system. If
a build breaks, flash red or maybe if the site goes down go to solid red.

~~~
nandemo
My previous company used to use this:

<http://www.patlite.com/product/category0002_000000.html>

For instance, you can use yellow for "warning/important" level and red for
"critical" level, and lights-only for staging environment and light & sound
alarm for production environment, for instance. Pretty expensive, though.

~~~
swah
I can't even find the price on this page, and already made a negative image
about this company just because of this :)

~~~
nandemo
I understand that sentiment is popular on HN, but not listing prices is pretty
standard for B2B. At least in Japan (where Patlite is based), most businesses
will not discard a potential vendor just because they don't list prices on
their webpage.

------
dakrisht
I like the project. It's neat. Also neat is watching the video and seeing
hundreds of dollars pour into the Kickstarter project.

I guess the WiFi/logic controller is on-board each individual bulb? Then you
would pair(?) the bulbs to the app?

If that's the case, I wonder what they're doing about security - since most
anyone skilled would be able to hack different homes with different light
setups.

Hopefully this doesn't get held up by patent trolls...

~~~
netfire
I was wondering about the security as well. I would imagine it would make it
easier for thieves to rob a house where they could turn off all the lights. Or
turn on the lights and see if there is any reaction (to see if anyone is
home).

------
ChuckMcM
This is one of those times where I wonder what these guys think Phillips, GE,
and others are spending hundreds of millions, if not billions, of dollars on
LED lighting solutions are doing. In some industries you can say "Oh they just
don't get it" but lighting is so fashion driven and so fundamental to
everything we do these entrenched players don't miss out on much.

~~~
rsl7
I imagine they're spending tons on focus groups and market research trying to
find out what people want. They're probably not hearing "we want to turn
lights on and off with our iPhones". Or at least not enough people are saying
that to justify them building a product line around that concept and selling
it at Home Depot.

Meanwhile, this kickstarter project has raised enough to prove the concept and
at least get me a couple of those lights.

~~~
ChuckMcM
I'm a bit put off by their claim of 133 lumens per watt. (6 watts for 800
lumens) and I've bought / used several LED lights and designed lights for my
RV which runs off batteries when not hooked up to an external AC source. Love
their demo video though, think it will be a killer product. I look forward to
being able to buy one once they are in production.

------
alexchamberlain
Shame this uses WiFi rather than Power line networking; I'm sure it would be
more efficient and future proof.

~~~
watty
This "just works". Power line networking would require a wireless device
plugged in the wall in order to control the lights from a phone.

~~~
Karunamon
It's pretty wasteful though. That's a lot of useful wifi gear being thrown out
with every spent bulb.. It would probably be more efficient (and cheaper for
more than one or two bulbs) for them to handle all of the logic and wireless
in a single powerline wall wart and then have the bulbs be dumb listeners on
that.

------
godsdead
$70 for ONE bulb, so that's $280 for 4 in one room, You could hack an LED bulb
together to cheap using cables instead of Wifi, A better future proof idea
would be to have a very very customizable app that you sell, An app that let's
you interface with computer controlled Lights

~~~
swah
$49 for 4+, and yes the DIY is much cheaper. But the Kickstarter is about
paying more to support the idea. The final product should be substantially
cheaper...

~~~
james33
Eventually it will be substantially cheaper, but don't expect it to be cheaper
out of the gate.

------
james33
Is it just me or is Kickstarter addicting? It seems like every week there is
some new cool project posted and I can't help but back it. If something like
this were at Walmart I probably wouldn't give it a second thought, but on
Kickstarter I've already in for 2.

------
mmphosis
Very cool. 6 Watts, wifi controlled, colors and dimming, and plugs into a
standard lightbulb socket. Mayhaps, the transformation from 110VAC adds to the
complexity and possibly power consumption. Power over ethernet might be a
better option. <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_over_Ethernet>

We're using 12V with many white LEDs that consume .1 Watts powered entirely
from the sun. The tiny 12V sockets have intially caused some problems because
there are two prongs on the base and the base, and there appear to be
different ways of wiring this.

------
JoshTriplett
I'd find this potentially interesting if I had any confidence that it wouldn't
burn out in a few months like every other "lasts for years" bulb I've tried.

~~~
jws
Two cases here.

Many CFL bulbs are junk. Their "years" claim assumes they are only used for
brief periods each day, and even at that I doubt they can reach their
warrantee period. That doesn't matter though, because you will be unable to
find any mechanism for contacting the manufacturer about the warrantee. I
assume they have zero claims.

LED bulbs are different. Heat is a killer. You might be burning them up in an
enclosed or even partially enclosed fixture.

~~~
SageRaven
I've equipped 4 homes completely with CFL bulbs -- every single bulb but the
oven, range hood, and refrigerator. Home #1 was in '99. I usually buy whatever
is a good deal at Wal Mart and whatever major hardware store is nearest,
trying small batches until I find a color/temp in a bulb that I like. I've had
maybe a dozen bulbs fail during that time, including dumb breakage. And we run
these things hard, often 8-to-12 hours a day in some of the living spaces in
winter.

Whenever I see CFL threads, there's always some who claim they never last
long. I don't know what these folks do to their bulbs, but for me they've
lasted many, many years. Certainly long enough to pay for themselves in
savings over incandescents -- and then some.

------
Freestyler_3
Because I enjoy all the radio signal pollution and I want more.

Y won't they make this, but in the light bulb use the lan over power, then
plug a lan over power adapter in where your router is. Connect it to the
router, and you can then control it via your network (sorta like a media box).
But then you have the problem that every lightbulb is a "computer" on the
power network and I don't know how that would work.

~~~
pbhjpbhj
I'm guessing because there are already products that using LAN over powerline.

From Insteon website [ _emphasis mine_ ]:

>"The INSTEON LED Bulb features simple setup, intuitive control and easy
linking to any INSTEON controller, such as a handheld remote. When paired with
the free INSTEON app, the SmartLinc Hub turns an iOS/Android smartphone or
tablet into a fully functioning remote control of the bulb or an entire
INSTEON network. The bulb is fully dimmable and can be added to any number of
scenes to create custom lighting at the touch of a button.

The INSTEON LED Bulb contains INSTEON’s patented dual-band communication
technology, the most reliable, efficient communication system available. Just
like other INSTEON devices, _the bulb acts as a network signal repeater and
sends signals over both radio frequencies (RF) and a home’s existing wires
(powerline)_.

The INSTEON LED Bulb retails for $29.99. For more information or to watch a
demonstration video, visit www.insteon.com/bulb." //

------
pfhorsworn
So, how would one go about connecting it a password protected network?

~~~
mape
I asked on Kickstarter and Phil Bosua responded:

"When you launch the app for the first time it guides you through a simple
configuration process. You enter your network password and then the device and
all lights are paired."

------
vld
<http://amzn.com/B006RJRBY6> \- a similar product, but not so smart. I guess
you could hook some IR blasters to a WiFi-enabled device (eg: OpenWRT router)
and write software that replicates the same functionality.

------
mayneack
Given the department of energy's smart grid/home/appliance goals. They might
be better off with a DoE grant than a kickstarter (better for them, not
necessarily better for consumers/taxpayers/etc)

------
ollysb
I was pleased to see that you can use your existing switches. For the majority
of cases I can't imagine anything more irritating than having to get my phone
out, open up an app and find the right light control, just to turn the light
on. It would definitely be convenient to switch all lights off when I go to
bed though.

Coloured lighting seems a bit naff but maybe there are more subtle ways to use
it than make your lounge look like a nightclub.

~~~
michaelmior
Your existing switches still work assuming you just want to turn the lights
off. Of course then you have to flick the switch back on before they can be
controlled by the app again.

And what about turning the lights back on when they were shut off with the
app? Perhaps cycling the switch will make them come back on.

~~~
james33
I asked them about this and they said it'll still work to turn them on without
the app (your assumption about flicking the switch is correct).

------
follower
A similar product which was doing the rounds recently:
<http://bluetoothbulb.com/>

------
anonymouz
They claim that one can still use the existing switches in addition to
controlling the bulbs via WiFi, and this is a feature that seems somewhat
important for e.g. guests, situations when you don't have your phone on you,
etc.

But I'm curious how it would work, switching of the light switch would also
kill any fancy WiFi interface to the bulb.

~~~
kiallmacinnes
I'm taking a wild guess here.. but I assume the bulb will reset to on @ 100%
when the power is cut and turned back on..

That way, you can get manual control of the light by just flicking the power
off/on..

~~~
anonymouz
But once somebody switches it off (with a switch), yo cannot switch it back on
with the phone. It seems to me that having a home automation system that
includes the light switches would be much better.

~~~
meanguy
That's how similar products work. Some contain batteries to remember state.
Some are full duplex and request state / update status. Some even work.

Another fun scenario: somebody crashes into a utility pole near your house,
the power flickers, all your lights come on, the ceiling fans spin up 100%,
and the ashes from your fireplace are distributed all over your house.

Or the lightning strike. Computer works, internet works, can't turn on any
lights.

Visit a home automation forum for these and other tales of nerd homes gone
bad.

------
sitharus
I've wanted to do this to my place for years, but I've always wanted to do it
to improve the lighting - more smaller sources so you don't get blinding
looking at the globe and better locations.

Alas I rent so I've never been able to do it, and $99 is a bit much for a pair
of lightbulbs.

------
Aardwolf
Why would anyone want to use something like a smartphone to control their
lighting?

Smartphones are todays temporary fad, and will change every few years.

The lighting of your house, however, is supposed to last a few decades, unless
you like totally redocorating every few years.

~~~
Karunamon
_Smartphones are todays temporary fad_

You think carrying a mobile computing device wherever you go is a "temporary
fad"? _Really_?

~~~
Aardwolf
No, I do not. However, today's specific implementation is. Are you really
convinced that you'll be able to run an iPhone app from today in 10 years?

It's just that, I'd love to have a fancy lighting system, but please with its
own specific remote(s), not a device you replace and that changes every few
years.

------
dakrisht
Crazy to see how they raised $100,000 in a little over 24-hours.

------
jaxonrice
Wouldn't it make more sense to make the actual lightswitch wi-fi controllable
rather than the lightbulb?

~~~
pflats
It looks like their goal is to make the entire project "electrician-free".
Replacing a light switch is still intimidating for a large number of people.

~~~
count
Or not possible if you're renting.

------
Robby2012
I love the project but I hope they've been really serious about security

------
prawn
Would jump at something like this for outdoor, solar lights.

------
Zash
and with IPv6, each light bulb can have its own globally unique address!

