
Ask HN: Help, HN'er in trouble, we need a laywer in Delhi immediately - jacquesm
Hello Hacker News,<p>A fellow HN'er (who has to remain anon for a bit) is in serious trouble in India. She's been taken into police custody to be presented in front of a magistrate without representation. We <i>URGENTLY</i> need a lawyer on the ground in Delhi but it being Sunday there found that it is very hard to reach anybody there.<p>If you have contacts in Delhi or are in Delhi yourself <i>please</i> help us to find a competent criminal lawyer in the next few hours.<p>You can reach us through j@ww.com phone + 31 6 30 366 241<p><pre><code>   Jacques Mattheij (jacquesm) &#38; Daniel Tenner (swombat).</code></pre>
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swombat
This is no joke. The case is driven by people who are influential with the
police/judicial in Delhi. We need to get solid legal help on the ground before
this person arrives in Delhi (in about 3 hours).

Please help.

Edit: some answers to common questions:

\- It is not a good idea to discuss the details of the case right now. There
is a police case, it is completely made up as an excuse to get hold of the
person we're talking about (I've seen the case filing). The main charge is
kidnapping, and she's the victim - but somehow she still gets arrested. India
for the win.

\- She's an Indian national.

\- We need a professional, influential, trustworthy lawyer and are willing to
pay (reasonable fees).

~~~
mailshanx
Hey Daniel i've emailed you a lawyer contact.

~~~
swombat
Thanks. I've replied!

------
jacquesm
Thanks guys & girls it's been wonderful. We have located two lawyers thanks to
your help, one of them was willing to take the case warts and all but not
currently in Delhi, the other is in Delhi and also willing to take the case.
I've put the lawyers in touch with her, Delhi police and each other.

We would not have been able to do this without HN on such short notice, thank
you all very much.

~~~
lambada
It sometimes amazes me that despite all the debates about any "decline in
quality" and despite the continuously expanding community, when the chips are
down we can still band together.

~~~
dmlorenzetti
I agree-- and yet, the most upvoted comments are the sideline comments
discussing meta-aspects of the search, while the posts suggesting actual
lawyers, or offering specific help, languish at the bottom.

I just went through and upvoted everybody who offered concrete help or advice.

~~~
jacquesm
What you see here on HN is a shadow of what is happening to my inbox and
phone, it's been ringing off the hook with people offering financial support
and legal advice as well as lawyers offering their services. Incredible.

~~~
dmlorenzetti
And I would upvote them too, if I could.

My point is not that the community isn't great. It's just that upvotes are the
main currency I have to meaningfully reward individuals for their
contributions (which is why you've received plenty of mine over the years).

------
goombastic
Indian police and people with access to political power usually pick people up
on saturday or sunday when the courts are closed. This is the usual trick. A
day in an Indian police lockup is not something you can stomach easily. If
they are looking for you on a friday, it means political power and possible
threats, beatings, forced confessions; hide and move away with family
immediately until monday! If they are looking for you on other days, relax.

~~~
pseingatl
It's not just India. The FBI and the DEA love to make arrests on Friday after
10 am for this reason. The next court hearing is Monday morning.

~~~
jalanco
Your reply is yet another "Tu quoque America!" post that is becoming far too
predictable and common on HN. The US is not the subject of the OP's comment.

Clarification: My comment probably appears to be a knee-jerk defense of
America. I'm a libertarian, and, as an example, I'm a huge fan of Radley Balko
and his expose of no-knock raids and other many government civil liberty
abominations, just so you know where I stand. I also believe the DEA should be
shut down, and that many people in the justice department should probably be
in prison. But my point is that power corrupts, universally. It is not
isolated, obviously, to the US.

~~~
mikeash
I disagree. He's not saying that this somehow excuses the Indian behavior, or
that Americans are worse. He's simply pointing out that this is a widespread
problem. I personally found the post interesting and am glad he posted it. It
is definitely not a "tu quoque" as you say.

~~~
wisty
The difference being, in the US the police are only likely to give you a hard
time if they think you are guilty. In India, they are only likely to do so if
someone bribed them to.

~~~
Confusion
Which is not any better for the detainee, because he still gets treated badly
by someone who thinks he's entitled to doing so.

A police officer is not qualified to determine who is _guilty_. Only to
determine who is _suspect_. All _suspects_ are to be treated alike. And of
course, we can all come up with blatantly obvious cases where someone is
guilty of some heinous crime. The point is that there are many more cases
where the crime is less noteworthy, the guilt is less obvious and someone
still gets treated badly before his _guilt_ has been established.

------
arbuge
Good lawyers don't advertise (always a golden rule) but are often mentioned in
searchable online media. A good technique (imho) for lawyer selection in any
given major city is to collect a list of the most prominent lawyers in the
specialization area of interest, and interview all of them. There will usually
be fewer than a dozen candidates if you've done decent research & narrowing
down. At some point in the interview ask who they would personally recommend
as a lawyer if they couldn't recommend themselves. Then see where the answers
converge.

This does take a few days and in a country like India might take even longer.
So if you need somebody in a few hours it could be useless advice. If you can
find somebody for initial representation and then switch to somebody else
later, it might be more applicable.

~~~
swombat
Thanks. I think in the short term we just need someone there right now. In the
long term this sounds like a good strategy, if there is a long term...

~~~
fakeer
I am not sure if this <http://www.vakilsearch.com> ('vakil' means a lawyer in
Hindi/Urdu) can provide lawyers to represent in a criminal case but you can
just give it a shot for initial representation

------
khetarpal
Hi Daniel,

My uncle is an ex MLA (member of legislative assembly) and is lawyer by
background. He may be able to help. I have spoken to my dad about this, and he
will connect you.

Please call him @ [redacted].

Best of Luck!

Sumit

~~~
fakeer
jm2c.

Why not remove your uncle's contact details from here and PM to OP, rather!

------
nrao123
I have also reached out to a few people - in the human rights/criminal law
space - in Delhi. Will update you as soon as I hear back.

~~~
swombat
Thank you!

------
known
Jethmalani,Ram (Sr.) ph: 011-23792287,011-23794651 fax:011-23010944

<http://www.scbaindia.org/Web/aspx/directory.aspx>

~~~
khetarpal
Top notch guy, but unless you know him or have any political weight, he's not
going to take the case.

~~~
fakeer
Besides, in the past, he had shown great interest in playing the devil's
advocate. Doesn't do low profile cases.

------
harichinnan
Next time you need a lawyer urgently in India urgently, walk upto a court
house. There'll be swarms of lawyers coming your way. Talk to a few of them in
a group. Pick the one you feel comfortable. Lawyers are under employed in
India, except for a select few who graduate to there own offices and staff.
The rest ply the court houses looking for work.

~~~
jacquesm
We are not in India. Daniel is in the UK and I'm in the Netherlands. We are
trying to do this by remote control which is quite challenging. If we could
have walked to the courthouse I'm fairly sure we would have done that.

------
kshatrea
Harish here. I am calling some people up. In case I find something, will send
you an email on the email ID posted on your profile. Take care.

~~~
swombat
Thank you!

------
edanm
For those, like me, who have no connections to India, please let us know if
there's something else we can do to help. Including, if you need it, asking us
to contribute money - I'm sure many here would help good members of this
community.

------
sohamsankaran
Just a suggestion, but you might consider trying to get the news media to
cover the case: if the general public are aware of the details, its more
difficult for the police/judiciary to push through nonsensical judgements on a
bogus case (note the case of Aseem Trivedi, for instance). In essence, they
can't make a moderately well known person or case 'disappear', as it were.

~~~
jacquesm
In any other case I would happily follow this advice, in this particular case
we will use that only as a means of last resort and let's hope that it will
never come to that.

------
nodemaker
I dont know any criminal lawyers but I am currently in Delhi and if there is
anything else I can help with please let me know. My email is in my profile
info.

~~~
swombat
Thank you. There may be something you can do, though not sure what yet - I've
passed your email to Jacques (he's coordinating the action).

------
deepakprakash
@swombat, @jacquesm : I've mailed you details for a senior criminal lawyer at
Delhi. Do check. Let me know if I can help in any other way.

------
akshat
Jacques, I had sent these questions in a mail to you. However, the answers
should help others in identifying the appropriate lawyer.

1> What area of Criminal law this pertains to. 2> Is she an Indian? 3> Is she
looking for professional representation or someone in personal capacity. Based
on this we can look up one from a prominent firm or not.

~~~
swombat
Hello, see my answers above:

\- It is not a good idea to discuss the details of the case right now. There
is a police case, it is completely made up as an excuse to get hold of the
person we're talking about (I've seen the case filing). The main charge is
kidnapping, and she's the victim - but somehow she still gets arrested. India
for the win.

\- She's an Indian national.

\- We need a professional, influential, trustworthy lawyer and are willing to
pay (reasonable fees).

Thanks for your help.

------
mkuhn
I am also working a few contacts but as far as I can remember right now none
of them is based in Delhi.

edit: Two guys in Delhi are actively looking.

~~~
jacquesm
Thank you.

------
me551ah
[http://www.justdial.com/Delhi-NCR/Lawyers-For-
Criminal/ct-32...](http://www.justdial.com/Delhi-NCR/Lawyers-For-
Criminal/ct-324099)

~~~
swombat
Thanks!

------
pseingatl
Khaitan & Co. have an office in Delhi. Here's their Mumbai contact:

anshul.prakash@ khaitanco. com rabindra.Jhunghunwala@ khaitanco. com

~~~
jacquesm
Thank you. We really need speed, email is probably too slow, mobile numbers?

(Apologies to you and anybody else in this thread for being brief, too little
sleep and too much to do).

j.

------
prakashk
If you think the situation applies, PUCL (<http://pucl.org>) might be an
option. See the contact page for phone numbers. If nothing else, they should
know some good lawyers.

------
Techasura
wow.. i don't understand what is happening here, what is the case about. at
least a brief description.

EDIT: after reading thru the comments, i'm so sorry about the issue. My uncle
is supreme court lawyer, but hey,also read that arrangements have been made.
Good luck! and any major changes, you can reply to this post, i can strike
back in no time with a trusted lawyer.

~~~
jacquesm
Thank you very much, if you can drop me a line at j@ww.com I'd be obliged.

~~~
Techasura
Sent.

------
nutanc
You can maybe try <http://www.akosha.com/>

They are mainly into consumer complaints but should know good lawyers and they
are based out of Delhi.

------
dutchbrit
Posted on Facebook, I urge the rest of you to do the same. I have a lot of
international friends so hopefully I'll be able to help too.

~~~
jacquesm
Thank you!

~~~
dutchbrit
Geen probleem ;). Hope you manage to find some good representation!

------
gawenr
If you're a redditor, please upvote
[http://www.reddit.com/r/india/comments/12m11h/ask_hn_help_hn...](http://www.reddit.com/r/india/comments/12m11h/ask_hn_help_hner_in_trouble_we_need_a_laywer_in/)
(not my post)

------
Surio
Usually, before we get a lawyer to agree to represent anyone, and in this
case, a foreigner in India (EDIT: Indian national), the lawyer should be
briefed on the skeleton of the case at least before he can take an informed
decision, whether to take on the case.

You need to provide some cursory details of the case, before this gains some
amount of traction at least.

~~~
jacquesm
No, I should really not provide any 'cursory details' here, you are basically
going to have to trust my word on that this case is very complex and involves
a lot of backstory that could only hurt, not help if I start blabbing about it
in public.

Those details are between her and her hopefully soon to be found lawyer, who
can then decide if he/she wants to take the case.

I'm sure the general public would love to hear all about these details (you
could make a cliff-hanger mini series about it and write a best-seller) but
the case isn't served by creating either a public spectacle beyond what I've
already done here (a risk in itself but we have no time).

~~~
Surio
Dude, If I stepped on your toes, I am sorry. I should have clarified what I
meant by cursory details (if I had realised this would be the response, I
would have written this earlier, honestly!). Something along these lines as
provided by @akshat above:

1> What area of Criminal law this pertains to.

2> Is she an Indian?

3> Is she looking for professional representation or someone in personal
capacity.

> Based on this we can look up one from a prominent firm or not.

OK, that was all. The reason I tried to write it here rather than PM, is
because others could also benefit from this kind of info when talking to their
own respective contacts/lawyers/colleagues.

Again, I want to clarify that I was not digging for the kind of details that
you seem to have implied on the reply. And sorry if I upset anyone.

EDIT: @swombat has already replied to these questions above when I was
composing my reply to jacquesm.

Thanks, @swombat

~~~
swombat
I don't think you stepped on Jacques' toes. We're just pretty stressed about
this and so being brief (I'm now replying to messages/social media and
gathering leads while he tries to ring up lawyers).

I answered those points now in my post:

\- It is not a good idea to discuss the details of the case right now. There
is a police case, it is completely made up as an excuse to get hold of the
person we're talking about (I've seen the case filing). The main charge is
kidnapping, and she's the victim - but somehow she still gets arrested. India
for the win.

\- She's an Indian national.

\- We need a professional, influential, trustworthy lawyer and are willing to
pay (reasonable fees).

~~~
harichinnan
Lawyers certainly help. However you could also have someone contact a local
women's rights group. Also put the word out to some of her Indian friends. May
be someone could get some "political" help to get things going. That's how it
works in India. If you know someone really rich in Delhi, they could also
help. Most likely they know a M.L.A or an M.P or someone high up in the
police. I hope fellow HN'rs with political contacts in Delhi would reach out
to you.

------
kirillzubovsky
What you are describing is quite similar to this -
[http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/2012-11-01/india...](http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/2012-11-01/india/34856977_1_nri-
girl-nri-woman-british-girl) \- any thoughts? Is this the same girl we are
talking about? Sounds like it is.

~~~
jacquesm
No. Btw, that story is a fake by all accounts.

------
djt
Have you contacted her family? She is an Indian national, does she have
contacts there?

~~~
swombat
Without going into details, the first one is not an option and the answer to
the second question is no, she has very few contacts.

~~~
djt
Has she got dual citizenship? That could be one avenue to look at

~~~
jacquesm
No.

------
atomical
I'm going to guess that this is the person who started Ask HN.

------
bilalhusain
(The proverbial 'that guy')

Delhi police or CBI (whomsoever) is handling the case is one of the best in
the nation. So, let me do my bit (because no one else has raised any voice).

The post portrays Delhi and India in a bad light. I am pretty sure, the case
is NOT as dramatic as it is being described (or the victim not as innocent) -
An Indian national with very little contacts who is about to land (or is in
custody from yesterday?)...

That said (and realizing that I am on the losing side), I appreciate the quick
thinking you guys are doing to help the person, and personally I have huge
respect for the well known names (Daniel & Jacques - who are often on the
front page) and that you are losing your sleep over this!

Downvotes are welcome!

~~~
swombat
They may or may not be the best in the nation, but having seen the case with
my own eyes and knowing the person in question and the backstory very well, I
can assure you that:

1) the case is totally made up (to a truly ridiculous extent), has been so for
the six months since it came to existence, and has been handled with complete
disregard for truth or any attempt to seek the truth

2) this is indeed very dramatic for the person in question

3) the person in question is completely innocent

4) the people behind this made-up case are closely connected to and
influential with the police in Delhi.

And yes, you're right that it does make the Indian police system seem very
corrupt. I'd be ashamed of it if I was Indian.

~~~
anu_gupta
> I'd be ashamed of it if I was Indian.

Oh get over yourself. How many abuses of power and privilege do we see in the
UK and the USA. Try to keep your racist insinuations out of what might be an
admirable attempt to help someone.

~~~
hkmurakami
Maybe the sentence would have been a bit less sensitive had Daniel used "if I
were a citizen of India" instead of "Indian", in order to remove the possible
racial interpretation.

~~~
eshvk
Indian is not a race :-)

~~~
hkmurakami
apologies for my ignorance :(

