
In Medieval Europe, No Outfit Was Complete Without a Personal Eating Knife - chablent
https://www.atlasobscura.com/articles/medieval-knives
======
beat
Steven Pinker talks about this in his book _Better Angels of our Nature_.
Ending the habit of personal eating knives was part of the "civilizing
process" that drastically reduced the murder rate in Europe, because people
stopped walking around armed quite so much.

~~~
tomjakubowski
So much for "an armed society is a polite society", I guess.

~~~
x220
That premise is true, just not in the way you think. Societies with
uncontrollable violence tend to have informal codes of politeness designed to
prevent violence and are far more likely to have gangs with honor codes. This
does not necessarily make the society less violent, it just means you have
more rules to navigate so you don't lose your protection or piss off some
powerful person.

~~~
rv-de
I noticed that in cultures where violence is a more accepted form of behavior
it is much less likely that someone will bump into me on a busy street. In
places like Split (Croatia) or Istanbul there is more natural inclination to
grant some space when passing. The most bumps I get in Germany with Munich
claiming the first place. I used to joke that the citizens of Munich simply
aren't afraid enough of getting stabbed or beaten up and hence use any minor
inconvenience as an opportunity to make a statement.

~~~
aluren
Where in the world are you getting the notion that violence is more accepted
in Croatia or Turkey than in Germany?

~~~
travmatt
According to Wikipedia, the per capita homicide rate of turkey is
approximately 3.5 times higher than that of germany. Croatia is actually less
than that of Germany, although they did fight a very nasty war in the early
90’s and that may have colored some people’s perception of the country.

~~~
aluren
What does per capita homicide have to do with a culture's being accepting of
violence? I mean we're still talking about very low absolute levels.
Anecdotally, having been to all three countries, I approximately encountered
the same level of violence, _i.e._ nil. So really, I'm lost here. Are there
any specific violence-proscribing laws in Germany that somehow don't apply in
Turkey or Croatia?

~~~
travmatt
If a given place has a higher level of homicide, doesn’t it logically follow
that more people there resort to violence as a means to solve problems? Your
personal anecdote doesn’t really disprove the actual statistics. Most
countries have laws against bribery and corruption, although I doubt you’d
define a countries acceptance of bribery and corruption on the basis of
whether there are laws prohibiting it.

~~~
peterwwillis
> If a given place has a higher level of homicide, doesn’t it logically follow
> that more people there resort to violence as a means to solve problems?

Correlation is not causation, and definitely not logic. A high homicide rate
is not indicative of a trend in problem solving, it is indicative of a safety
issue.

Specially, a high homicide rate is often the result of warfare. In the absence
of conflict with a different nation, usually this means gang warfare. In that
case, homicide is sometimes a business tactic, and sometimes tribal.

In some societies, human life isn't as valuable, or there is a precedent for
settling disputes with violence, or insignificant problems are dealt with
harshly, and so homicide sometimes is a problem solving tool. But it's also
sometimes a cultural quirk.

My example is Baltimore, Maryland. Often the city with the highest murder
rate, this is a result of gang disputes and the drug trade. The people are
friendly and neighborly, and it's got a similar culture to a liberal Southern
city.

~~~
travmatt
So you’re saying that more people committing violent crimes doesn’t indicate
that more people there commit violent crime? I don’t think your example really
helps your point at all - more people probably die in Baltimore as a victim of
a random act of violence than similar people in marginally less violent
places.

------
thrower123
My redneck is showing, but I feel a little naked if I go out the door without
either my Leatherman or my Mercator in my pocket. I have even been known to
pull it out and use it as an eating knife from time to time...

~~~
Raphmedia
People judge you until it's useful. If I received a dime whenever I've used my
pocket knife to cut steaks when everyone had only picnic plastic knifes I
would be rich by now.

~~~
stcredzero
One advantage of an Opinel, is that it doesn't look too out of place as a
steak knife. The other advantage: It's cost is very reasonable, especially for
the quality of blade you get.

~~~
kaybe
I can also attest that their chance to pass an airport security inspection
when forgotten in some pocket of a backpack is surprisingly high.

~~~
floren
And if you have to give it up at airport security because you forgot it was in
your pocket, oh well, $15 will set you up with a new one.

------
uhtred
Pretty sure I read somewhere that the reason we moved to having blunt knives
and forks set at the table was because people used to frequently get into
disagreements at the dinner table and stab each other, and so it became a
requirement to leave one's dagger/sword whatever outside.

~~~
thaumasiotes
What's a blunt fork? It would be incredibly easy to kill someone with any
ordinary metal fork.

~~~
excalibur
I don't know about incredibly easy, but certainly possible. If you stab
somebody in the chest with a fork, it won't penetrate as deeply as a dagger,
and there's a higher probability that the ribcage will stop the blow and spare
the internal organs. Forks are less-lethal utensils.

~~~
thaumasiotes
Sure, but the chest is the worst possible place to attempt to stab someone.
It's full of ribs.

Stab them in the head, or the neck, or the gut.

------
Bayart
In Medieval Europe ? My grand-father (who had been working an office job in
the city since the 50's) always had his Laguiole along. He even used it in the
restaurant. It was certainly standard behavior before WWII in rural areas.

~~~
jetrink
George Orwell mentioned the practice in a letter in 1936.

> The trouble is that the socialist bourgeoisie, most of whom give me the
> creeps, will not be realistic and admit that there are a lot of working-
> class habits which they don't like and don't want to adopt. E.g. the typical
> middle-class socialist not only doesn't eat with his knife but is still
> slightly horrified by seeing a working man do so.

~~~
rv-de
I was just wondering how having only a knife helps with eating. The knife will
just make the food bite-sized - though, how do you fixate the meal while
cutting? Then it struck me - you'll use your other hand for that and also for
moving the piece to your mouth. I'd argue this is the actual problem with this
BYO-knife-mentality.

~~~
rags2riches
If you hold your knife in the right hand you hold the food item in your left.
You then cut towards your right thumb, pinching the piece between your thumb
and the knife as it comes loose. You can then bring the piece to your mouth
with your right hand. As you do this, you turn hand such that the edge of the
knife is downwards and the back of the knife is towards your face. The knife
is horizontal and the point of the knife is towards your left.

That's hard to put in words but it's not hard to do at all.

~~~
rv-de
that's more or less what I wrote. but in many cultures touching food with your
bare hands for the purpose of eating is considered barbaric. that's why I
suspect that the problem isn't the knife - it's having to use your fingers.

------
mcantelon
The knife is considered the most important tool of all time... perhaps not to
eat with, but handy in general:

[https://www.forbes.com/2005/08/31/technology-tools-
knife_cx_...](https://www.forbes.com/2005/08/31/technology-tools-
knife_cx_de_0831knife.html#4af9ae6516ee)

Socialization seems to be turning knives into taboo things to carry and use
out of the kitchen.

~~~
canhascodez
Knives are generally useful, but not specifically useful. They are often a
good substitute for a more appropriate tool. One can use a knife as a can
opener, or to cut down a sapling, or to dig a foreign object out of a wound.
It may be that a knife is the most generally useful tool of all time: if one
can only have one tool, it should almost certainly be a knife. Part of that
generality includes misuse, and people tend to have more specifically-useful
tools (such as can openers, saws, and surgical implements), which tend to be
both less useful and less misuseful (because that's a perfectly cromulent
word, no matter what spellcheck says).

~~~
ur-whale
Most recently used mine to pull out a credit card from an ATM that wouldn't
regurgitate it.

Got a bunch of odd looks from folks in the crowd around me, but got my card
back.

------
sparrish
But not a single image of said knives.

~~~
JohnJamesRambo
Yes, what a wasted opportunity! From googling, maybe something like this?

[http://www.ragnarsmarket.co.uk/product/medieval-eating-
knife...](http://www.ragnarsmarket.co.uk/product/medieval-eating-knife-
personal-knife-type-1)

or

[https://myarmoury.com/review_tod_15c_eating.html](https://myarmoury.com/review_tod_15c_eating.html)

~~~
klez
I don't know, but the article says they were similar to daggers. Don't those
usually have two edges?

~~~
JohnJamesRambo
I'm not sure. Wikipedia says-

"A dagger is a knife with a very sharp point and one or two sharp edges,
typically designed or capable of being used as a thrusting or stabbing
weapon."

------
ilovecaching
Man I would love to go back to everyone carrying a belt knife. They're so
useful. In my state in America it's actually illegal to conceal a fixed blade
knife longer than a few inches, but perfectly fine to belt carry (open carry).

I often carry a swiss army knife, opinel, or bushcraft knife with me.

------
INTPenis
You don't have to go that far back. My grandma carried a knife to church. She
was from rural Croatia.

My father still carries a knife, and he still uses it for eating fruit.

~~~
ahoka
I carry an Opinel in my pocket for eating in the office kitchenette or even in
public places.

~~~
gadders
Good job you're not in the UK (I assume) - you'd get arrested for that.
Locking knives are illegal in public [1]

[1] [https://www.gov.uk/buying-carrying-knives](https://www.gov.uk/buying-
carrying-knives)

~~~
donatj
That is so lame. Non-locking knives are simply a danger to the user. Doing any
sort of vigorous knife work it's just a matter of time before you accidentally
shut your hand in it, speaking from experience.

~~~
dx87
Disposable plasic knives are also banned in public, unless you are using it to
eat. From [https://www.gov.uk/buying-carrying-
knives](https://www.gov.uk/buying-carrying-knives)

stealth knives - a knife or spike not made from metal (except when used at
home, for food or a toy)

~~~
DanBC
> Disposable plasic knives are also banned in public,

No they're not.

------
DoreenMichele
_During the Middle Ages, forks weren’t really part of the picture in Europe._

Supposedly, Catherine de Medici brought the fork from Italy to France and
popularized it:

[https://www.cooksinfo.com/catherine-de-
medici](https://www.cooksinfo.com/catherine-de-medici)

[http://www.courtneyprice.com/fork-you-said-catherine-de-
medi...](http://www.courtneyprice.com/fork-you-said-catherine-de-medici/)

[https://wonderopolis.org/wonder/when-was-the-fork-
invented](https://wonderopolis.org/wonder/when-was-the-fork-invented)

------
newnewpdro
I find myself using the chop sticks kept in my backpack far more often at
restaurants than the pocket knife.

~~~
vorpalhex
chopsticks are useful too, especially when you can't easily wash your hands
and want to eat something a bit messy, but they only work for food well cut up
in advance...

~~~
newnewpdro
In cases where food isn't cut up, I'll often use both the chop sticks and
pocket knife.

Once my chop sticks competency reached the point where they started feeling
like finger extenders I started using them quite often. I much prefer putting
bamboo sticks in my mouth over anything metal or plastic.

~~~
contingencies
Yeah, same with me. What's your feeling about plastic chopsticks and metal
chopsticks (Korean style)? I've seen telescoping extending chopsticks made of
metal for camping, always wondered if they were any good. I suspect not. I
personally camp with wooden, non-bamboo chopsticks.

~~~
newnewpdro
Any kind of wood over all else.

If a restaurant brings out metal chopsticks with my food, the wood ones from
my bag come out.

Telescoping metal chopsticks sounds like a solution looking for a problem
personally. It's not like bamboo disposable chopsticks weigh much, just stick
them somewhere.

~~~
contingencies
Me too. I guess telescoping means you can reduce the length of the rigid
portion to keep them in smaller spaces, like on your belt or something.
There's a whole culture of that around Hong Kong, for example. Everything must
clip to belt - otherwise, not cool. I only half joke.

------
schnevets
I believe Henry Petroski's _Evolution of Everyday Things_ begins by describing
Western eating utensils. It also goes into similar stories about sandpaper,
paperclips, and other everyday items. Great read if you enjoyed this article.

~~~
btilly
I rather think that causation goes the other way.

If you enjoy that, then you'll enjoy this article. However I enjoyed this
article but still rate that book as the most boring book that I've ever
managed to finish.

------
Theodores
The first person to paint true to life peasants was Pieter Bruegel. Until the
renaissance people painted for kings, queens and the church. Bruegel is
therefore an excellent source for being able to determine if this story is
true.

If you look at his paintings then only the men are carrying knives. None of
the women are. Why is this and can someone prove me wrong? I am not that
familiar with his work and have not checked everything he painted yet I have
not seen women with knives in his art.

~~~
stcredzero
I should think a peasant woman of the time would wear a knife concealed
beneath her skirts.

~~~
Theodores
Nope. I had to ask my favourite search engine since my observation on the
topic was not deemed that relevant here. Surprisingly simple answer:

"At many medieval dinner tables men and women ate in couples from a bowl
shared between them, and when they did, men were expected courteously to serve
their female partners, cutting portions of meat for them with their knives."

So that explains my observation of the paintings from the era that only show
the men with knives.

------
qualsiasi
In my country (Italy) AFAIK you're not allowed to carry a knife (any size,
even the smallest) in any public place (pub, restaurant, post office, ..).
Even on the streets or driving the law enforcement officers could ask you for
a sound motivation to carry it.

~~~
tomcooks
You can carry a folding, non locking knife anywhere in Italy

~~~
qualsiasi
I am not a lawyer but checking out some sources it looks like you’re not
allowed to do that. Relevant law should be law 110/75 article 4.

------
samstave
A personal eating knife seems like the perfect accessory to my utilikilt!

\---

Also when did atlasobscura become the new hotness?

~~~
TeMPOraL
> _Also when did atlasobscura become the new hotness?_

Links to it pop up regularly on HN, and have been for some time. Usually
there's something interesting on both ends.

~~~
samstave
Im not saying that they are not interesting -- Its just seemingly that they
have only relatively recently become super popular...

------
TheAlchemist
I highly recommend the book mentionned in the article - 'Consider the Fork',
for those interested in cooking.

A great book with many interesting topics (the personnal knife is just one of
them) !

------
kaddio
What would be the fastest way to kill someone with a push-pin? Asking for a
friend.

I can think of puncturing their eyes or their genitals if I wanted to make the
thing painful, but that wouldn't kill them any faster I reckon.

~~~
SEJeff
Likely via the carotid artery or perhaps the femoral artery if you were up
close and very personal, but this is mostly an exercise in futility.

~~~
nurino
I'm not sure you could reach those arteries with a push-pin.

~~~
SEJeff
The carotid is right under the skin on the sides of the neck. Academically, I
suspect you absolutely could reach it with a push pin.

In Jiu Jitsu, you're taught to squeeze on the sides of the neck for a choke.
The goal is not to cut off the air supply via the throat so much as the blood
supply to the brain via the carotids. Many people pass out in 20-30 seconds of
directed relatively gentle pressure on the carotids.

~~~
tonyarkles
We were recently talking about choke holds in Krav Maga, and it’s shockingly
fast when the sides of the neck are squeezed. Within about 5 seconds, for me,
I start to get tunnel vision and a profound sense of panic.

~~~
dx87
That's how they taught us to choke people during basic training in the USMC,
and collectively referred to the chokes as "blood chokes" because you cut off
blood supply to the brain. It's suprisingly easy to choke someone unconcious
just by twisting the sides of their shirt collar, or grabbing someone from
behind and squeezing the arteries on their neck with your forearm and bicep.
The scariest part about doing it during training is that you don't know that
you're about to blackout because you can still breath fine, it's just that
none of the oxygen is getting to your brain.

------
zwieback
The two medieval monks can explain what's going on in that picture:

[http://the-toast.net/2015/02/11/two-medieval-monks-invent-di...](http://the-
toast.net/2015/02/11/two-medieval-monks-invent-dinner-parties/)

