
What Happens to Creativity as We Age? - hvo
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/19/opinion/sunday/what-happens-to-creativity-as-we-age.html?ref=opinion
======
japhyr
I will turn 45 this year. One of my principles for healthy aging is to make
sure I'm learning something new and challenging every year or two.

I live in a fishing town in southeast Alaska, and I bought my first boat about
three years ago. I bought a 16-foot boat with an open cabin, and it was an
absolutely humbling experience. It feels like everyone here knows how to drive
a boat, and sputtering through a harbor trying not to take out a row of motors
was a really interesting learning experience. It forced me to be open to any
and all feedback from all kinds of people. It forced me to seek out advice and
assistance from people outside of my everyday circle of friends and co-
workers. It made me pay attention to tides and weather in ways I hadn't needed
to before. In short, it made me feel like I was looking at the world with new
eyes again.

That experience made me look for experiences every few years that are new
enough that I have to see the world as a kid does again. Not in the wide-eyed
wonder way, but in a way where I have to learn a whole new skill set. This
year it's been learning how to drive a truck with a boat trailer. I thought I
knew it intellectually, and I knew what I needed to make the trailer do, but I
couldn't figure out how to make the back of the truck go where I needed it to.
My neighbor was cracking up as he was helping me, and I think it was bringing
him back into the mindset of looking at this kind of task from a beginner's
perspective as well.

I have a 6 year old son, and I love sharing these learning experiences with
him. I want him to know that adults don't know everything, and that you really
can spend your whole life learning new skills.

~~~
sliverstorm
Photography also teaches you to look at the world differently, in a very
literal sense.

~~~
forthelove
Here's my vote for skateboarding. You'll never look at boring old stairs,
ledges, and curbs the same.

~~~
danielharrison
Same goes for surfing. Your life will start revolving around weather patterns
and swell forecasts.

~~~
matwood
Sadly, I do not surf as much anymore because I can no longer have my life
revolve around tides and weather.

------
interfixus
I'm ancient (late fifties), but even so, I'm struck by the somewhat creakingly
defensive tone of several comments in this thread - stolid narratives on the
virtues of middle age experience and perspective. Fourty years younger me
would be shaking my head. Present day me still is, a little bit.

I try to keep up. I am not necessarily very good at it, but I try. I have sort
of given up on quite a few of my contemporary friends who seem to have sort of
given up on trying. But all too clearly, ideas and crazy angles just aren't
coming the way they used to. I was probably at my creative peak when I was
sixteen. Didn't really know shit about anything, but my writings and drawings
from that time are still holding up, as fresh and inspired as anything I ever
did.

~~~
carbocation
Replying to you is quite arbitrary. But, at some point, I have to at least
raise my point.

I'm a cardiologist. I see patients every day. Anyone below 70, to me, is
young. It's important to me that they feel the same way: it's easy to get old
if you feel old. There's nothing factual or evidence based here. It's just my
view.

I understand that the running joke in the Valley is that you're old if you're
out of your 20s. But, in my reality, 50s is extremely young.

~~~
BatFastard
I am in my 50's and I find the vast majority of adult I know at this age range
are very uncreative in their thinking. Not sure why, maybe corporate life has
beat it out of them.

~~~
oldandtired
If you look really closely at the 20 to 30 age group, much of their creativity
is a rehash of old ideas, many of which were shown to be lacking when they
first came up. They are successful now not because they are good ideas but
because those who support them don't know their history and the consequences
thereof. In addition many in that age group has less creativity than those who
are older.

Following trends and fashions is a common failure amongst people. Just because
something has become fashionable doesn't mean that it is good.

~~~
interfixus
You see? It really isn't all that easy even to _sound_ not old.

~~~
BatFastard
Lol, problem with being old is seeing people make the same mistakes over and
over again!

Companies don't do the research needed, people take ideas that have been
around for years, give them a new label and wala, new idea!

~~~
foldr
voila

~~~
BatFastard
thx ;-)

------
mzzter
I'm not satisfied to define creativity as simply having "unusual ideas" as the
article says in the opening paragraphs. The study focuses on cognitive
flexibility, what I understand to be out-of-the-box thinking.

Other research that composes creativity as a mixture of empathy, pattern-
matching, and seeing the big picture suggests that creative ability can be
refined with age.

~~~
scottLobster
Yeah, I also think "outside the box thinking" as defined by the article is
particularly bogus. Their opening example of a 4 year old suggesting the
grandfather stop eating all vegetables because eating vegetables defines an
adult is cute, but I wouldn't say it leads anywhere productive or meaningful.
In fact that kind of outside the box thinking is likely to kill the
grandfather sooner.

I suppose this doesn't matter so much if we're talking about purely artistic
creativity, which is typically thinking outside the box solely for the sake of
thinking outside the box. Sure, maybe that decreases with age, but I'd say
objective-based creativity, where the goal is to solve a specific problem,
should actually increase with age and accrued knowledge if a person can remain
open to new solutions.

Thinking outside the box is easy. Most adults simply don't do it because
they're focused on productivity and goals. A kid might think that a great way
to feed a family is to build their house out of pizza, so they can just eat
the walls and never go hungry. Good luck with that...

~~~
gt_
I also agree with all of these things.

I think you're right about 'purely artistic creativity'. In addition, I think
it's a distraction, a bit misleading. Let's say the boxes are a warehouse of
boxes stacked in perfect cubular formation. So, when you leave one box, you
find yourself in another.

~~~
gt_
and we can muse on what the outside of the ware house is haha.

------
Powerofmene
I too am in my 40s and I think that my creativity is still active. The main
difference is now I have the experience to know when an idea is worth acting
on and when it is just an "wow, wouldn't that be great."

Even if something would be great, that does not mean that an idea that you
have is one that ignites your passion. If you are not passionate about an idea
it is not an idea that you should pursue, at least not as a founder, inventor,
etc.

I think creativity is simply the way you think. For me, when I see something
that I like I always ask myself several questions such as :

1\. I wonder why ...... 2\. What would be the outcome of .... 3\. What if.....
4\. Wouldn't it be/function/look/inspire if 5\. How can I make this.....

These are not the only questions I ask, but if the answers keep me excited
about something, I continue asking myself questions to see if the resulting
answers create something worthy of further pursuit. If so, then I approach a
couple of trusted people and ask them 'what if this did this or if you had
this available to you' would you use it? Would you use it often? Would you
tell others about it? What would make it better' etc. If you are lucky an idea
or two or five are worth putting all of your energy behind. I have felt that
way about a couple of ideas in my life but they did not always come at times
that my life allowed me to pursue the idea with all my time and attention,
until now. I liken it to finding your significant other, they have to
challenge you, ignite your passion and the timing has to be right.

But overall, I believe that Creativity is not about age as much as it is
developing your own way of seeing things and then arriving at something new.
Not everybody questions most things they see, hear, touch, etc but for those
of us that do, well age is just a number.

------
ringaroundthetx
Before we get into the nitty gritty, did anyone else notice how dumb this
article was?

It presupposed some things without evidence: "we lose creativity"

and then creates a convoluted study to support this notion. then creates a
second convoluted study that undermines the presented presupposition and
didn't discuss that at all.

just right back to the conclusion that writer already had.

~~~
avip
It's offensive to call cognitive science dumb.

~~~
ringaroundthetx
"cognitively negligent"

if you like synonyms

------
alphonsegaston
The thing that I've found as an artist is that, as one's skill grows, the
management of that corresponding complexity can overtake one's creative
capacity. At higher levels, the methods and structure required for competent
execution are a cognitive load that crowds out other impulses. I think this is
why you see a lot of older artists create works that are proficient, but
repetitive, the habitual overtaking the innovative.

But I don't think this is an unavoidable trajectory. Instead, one has to
cultivate "creative thinking" in the same way that they do other skills. The
thing that I've found most useful are arbitrary constraints derived from
things like word association games. They encourage all kinds of divergent
thinking.

------
ilamont
I've wondered a lot about the relationship between creative output and age in
terms of musicians. Across all genres, it seems that many talented musicians
lose their ability to compose or take part in creative works as they get
older. Sting talked about this (1); at some point in his mid-40s after writing
and releasing new albums every few years the creative well seemed to dry up
(he got it back later, and recently helped write and score a play). Other
musicians shift to performance mode or give up creating new works altogether.

However, with many well-known authors it seems to be more mixed. At one end of
the spectrum you have people like Walter M. Miller Jr. and Harper Lee who
write a great work and then seem to stop publishing by the time they reach
their early 40s, and then at the other, there are people like Ursula K. LeGuin
and Stephen King who are machines for more than 50 years.

1\. [http://www.npr.org/2014/10/03/351545257/how-do-you-get-
over-...](http://www.npr.org/2014/10/03/351545257/how-do-you-get-over-writer-
s-block)

~~~
archagon
And yet, classical composers (Bach!) have often produced their best work in
their later years.

I think the key is always having somewhere to (creatively) dig. For example,
artists who vary genres and instruments seem to do better than those who pick
a style and then stick with it for decades. Always head towards unexplored
ground; always be reinventing yourself.

~~~
Applejinx
Cezanne.

------
crehn
Just dropping by to say I really appreciate the HN community. I have learned a
ton through this concentration of (mostly) smart, well-rounded and diverse
bunch of people. Thank you. <3

------
agumonkey
In my twenties I had a very large drive, but of shallow conceptual level.
Since my brain slowed a lot, but I can grasp much larger problems and still
progress.

It's a smoother exploration process rather than youth random rush through
unknown space.

------
QAPereo
I'm yet to hear a really good, rigorous, and reproducible definition of
Creativity in the first place.

~~~
codingdave
People over-think it -- creativity is simply taking an idea, and making that
idea happen. Most people can be creative. The trick is for your creativity to
be unique and original.

~~~
paganel
> creativity is simply taking an idea, and making that idea happen. Most
> people can be creative

Maybe in the context of the HN audience (mostly people interested in writing
computer programs), but for me being "creative" means being someone like
Stanislaw Lem or Kafka, i.e. people who actually create new (in this case
literary) worlds which are really, really interesting to navigate through, so
much so that sometimes you don't want to come back into the real world.

------
gehwartzen
It seems to me that we would naturally become less "creative" as we age
because we are emmasing knowledge and experience. As we do so we have a much
larger bank of solutions to new problems we face. When we are young we have to
come up with creative solutions because we can't draw on past experience and
accumulated knowledge.

This is probably why we seem more creative when we try something new and
novel. We now again have to come up with creative solutions because we have no
other reference to go by.

~~~
TheSpiceIsLife
> _become less "creative" as we age because we are emmasing knowledge and
> experience. As we do so we have a much larger bank of solutions to new
> problems we face._

I don't think this makes any sense.

Drawing on knowledge and experience, and a larger bank of solutions, to solve
new problems _is_ creativity.

> _This is probably why we seem more creative when we try something new and
> novel. We now again have to come up with creative solutions because we have
> no other reference to go by._

I don't think makes any sense.

When we older more experienced people try something new and novel our
experience and knowledge and solutions from other fields doesn't suddenly
evaporate. There is a lot of crossover in accumulated experience and
knowledge.

------
dmichulke
What the article doesn't touch is how to stay creative.

One of computer scientific ways is to be epsilon-greedy, meaning everytime you
have an action to take, you do _(1-epsilon)_ (so 90% if epsilon = .1) times
what you think is best and _epsilon_ times something completely random.

Of course, that is a heuristic that doesn't really make sense without a
context because you wouldn't want to do it in your job interview or your
marriage proposal.

The other extreme is following the following quote which I find quite
inspiring:

 _If you don 't fail at least 90 percent of the time, you're not aiming high
enough_ (attributed to Alan Key but who knows)

While that's quite a high bar I personally do something quite different:

When I see something strange happening, e.g. a bird landing right in front of
you and looking at you, or you have a deja-vu or you see somewhere some
strange reference that looks like a message that only you can understand
because it's something that happened in your past, then I'm going to take the
other choice.

It happens a few times in a year and mostly biases explorative actions towards
when I have a congnitive surplus anyway cause otherwise I wouldn't perceive
the strange event in the first place.

------
hellofunk
I've always found it interesting that "creative activity" as relates to age is
apparently quite different depending on the discipline. It's well-known that
mathematicians (usually) get their most life-altering ideas quite early in
life, while artists often create their most unique impacts much later in life.

~~~
Kuiper
Fantasy author Brandon Sanderson (Mistborn, Wheel of Time, Stormlight Archive)
teaches a writing class where one of his lectures focuses on the notion that
writing is more about skill/craftsmanship rather than ideas/inspiration:

 _I want to disabuse you of a few notions. Writing is not about inspiration.
Writing is not about ideas. Writing, or more specifically, getting published,
is not about luck. What is writing about, then? Writing is about skill. And
today I want to try and prove this to you._

 _When someone sits down to play piano for you, how quickly can you tell if
they 're a good pianist or not? Basically everybody in this room can judge a
pianist's level of skill within a minute or two of play. Not exactly, but you
can know if this is someone who's good at piano, or if this is someone who's
still an amateur at the piano. You can probably tell if this is a master
versus someone who's just pretty good._

 _Editors, published writers, people who know what they 're doing, can do the
same thing with one page of your writing in the exact same way. That is why
it's not about inspiration, ideas or luck, because in one page I can judge how
good a writer you are. People wonder why can editors reject manuscripts or, in
this new age, where we're sometimes bypassing editors, how come the readers
just put something down after one page when they haven't given it a real
shot._

 _You guys can judge this too. You 've read enough, you know enough, you can
judge if something is going to work for you pretty quickly. Perhaps not as
quickly as most editors can, but you'll know. You'll read a chapter and you'll
know if that person is a master, if they're in that medium grade where they've
got some good things going on (it's still readable, but they're obviously not
a master), or if this is someone's first novel they wrote when they were 12.
You can tell all these things. So how do you develop this skill? Practice._

He goes on to note that ideas/inspiration are important, but not the most
central part of what makes writing effective.

Many "creative" disciplines like writing, sculpting, and film are more about
practiced and skilled craftsmanship than inspiration and ideas, whereas in
some other fields, like maths and scientific discovery, breakthroughs really
_are_ about inspiration and ideas.

~~~
hellofunk
I understand the point, but have to disagree a bit. Skill is as important in
Math as anywhere else. The breakthrough ideas of Godel or Einstein would have
been lost forever has those guys not also backed them up with solid
mathematical evidence which requires great skill. Godel's proof and the
complex math behind relativity and Einstein's fight to improve his math skills
to justify his ideas are testament to this.

Likewise, skill without ideas happens also. Hundreds or more of screenplays
sell every year that will never be made into movies; the writing is
technically good so the writers do make money, but the story ideas don't hit,
and the buyers eventually realize this before wasting more money.

------
nemo44x
I've always sort of thought about it as you get older and learn more about
things you're interested in you lose the ability to misunderstand something
and possibly come across something novel. Creativity becomes less of a coping
mechanism as you begin to refine your mastery of your interests and have fewer
chances of a misinterpretation taking you down a road of creative explosion.

Which is why I find it important to try and learn new things and find new
interests when you can. But even then, "creativity" so often results in a dead
end since the chance of discovering something new, effective and possibly
better is slim in the first place. But hopefully experience helps in sussing
out obvious bad ideas - like not eating vegetables to grow young again.

------
SZJX
I'd say this idea itself is already quite controversial and far from settled.
Old people are not necessarily worse off in their abilities to think or their
"creativity" or whatnot. Children might come up with a load of ideas because
their knowledge has not been trained/structured in the same way as the adults
have yet. But that doesn't mean their ideas would be particularly useful in
solving real problems, since they tend to be far less reality-based.

Also there are psycholinguistic researches at my university that suggest old
people don't actually learn more slowly, they have just pruned some
nonsensical connections and consolidated knowledge based on real world
experience, and are thus worse at learning invented examples that might not
make much sense.

------
technobabble
If you are concerned about your creativity, I highly recommend looking into
improvisation.

Although I am on the young side, I have devoted an evening a week to take
improv classes. One of my previous professors did his Phd on how
improvisational techniques can help with product design [1].

P.S. Spaghetti !?! Maybe tomorrow...

[1][https://dspace.mit.edu/handle/1721.1/61610](https://dspace.mit.edu/handle/1721.1/61610)

------
Fire-Dragon-DoL
The first example of the article is completely flawed though. It's not a
matter of creativity, it's that the adult knows that aren't vegetables making
you an adult, so he might be thinking a better, more efficient approach (doing
something that forces you to learn). Sure there are creative things kids can
do, but the first one is an example of ignorance, not creativity.

------
rdiddly
What you lose in creativity, you gain in knowing "not eating vegetables" is a
fucking stupid idea!

~~~
coldtea
What you gain in knowing "'not eating vegetables' is a fucking stupid idea"
you lose in the youthful ability to easily digest any crap you like to eat,
and still be healthy and fit eating it.

~~~
rdiddly
I'm not giving out health advice. Did you read the article? The kid thinks
Grandpa can go back in time by not eating vegetables.

~~~
coldtea
> _I 'm not giving out health advice._

I'm not saying you do. I'm just pointing out that the wisdom of better eating
we get at an older age is counterbalanced by the fact that we could eat much
worse and not get sick or even out of shape when we were younger.

------
yodsanklai
(only) 41, I don't think I've ever been particularly creative, but I've never
been as enthusiastic about learning new things than now. If anything, it seems
my short-term memory isn't as good as before.

------
shams93
It gets better and better if you don't quit your creative practice. Lets look
at Nels Cline, the guitarist for Wilco. Now he is very successful,but for most
of his life, up until he was over 50 he was a starving jazz guitarist. He
never gave up his practice. For some musicians they suffer injuries or health
issues that end their career. But as long as you stay healthy and limber and
keep up your practice you don't start having issues until you're starting to
get close to 80.

------
tchaffee
This is similar to old companies compared to startups. The two together give a
nice balance between stability (and efficiency) to experimentation. I wonder
if the analogy extends to the article's observations about teens. Are "teen"
companies fairly well established with what they are making but still willing
to explore various relationship or management models?

------
senatorobama
Something has happened to me. I'm 28.

I used to have a shit tonne of ideas, ready to execute. Now that I'm
approaching 3 years since graduation at a job that continually seems to
demotivate me, all of them have gone. I wanted to be something special, now I
have nothing to show.

Don't ever take a job which you don't consider to have a meaningful impact on
society.

~~~
ak39
You're being unfairly hard on yourself. Too harsh. :-) here is what is mostly
likely the scenario:

1\. You've executed many "crazy ideas" but the projects haven't really
mattered much.

2\. Now, with the benefit of hindsight, every idea is tempered with merciless
cost-benefit evaluation before you get started. You do this subconsciously.
Many times you instantly conclude that the payoff for investing in new
creative projects is not worth your time. This energy saving subconscious
filter is a good thing most times. As you grow older your social
responsibilities increase so you cannot be too frivolous with your time.

But ... you keep imagining, you keep dabbling and when the balance for benefit
vs cost tips differently you'll most likely go in with the same gusto and
energy.

The best part is all those years of dead end projects become a treasure trove
of experience and components for your new project!

Keep dabbling!

------
crunkykd
Creativity comes in various flavors

\- exploiting the latest technical advances into something new. Favors recent
academic grads ==> youth

\- ideas that require lots of hours of work to create ==> youth with more
energy and productive work hours

\- connecting things from unrelated fields together to create something new
and unexpected. Favors those with larger, broader experiences ==> age

------
plastroltech
My feeling is that as an adult I have the ability to "think creatively" when I
want to. I don't feel like a study of this nature really takes that into
account. I'd be curious what would happen if they added a segment of the test
where they ask the subjects to intentionally come up with a creative response.

------
6stringmerc
I preserve creativity by allowing my internal disobedience to flourish and
question things. Creativity is about seeing things differently. A lot of the
"aging process" can be seen, at least from my perspective, as a grinding down
into conformity in a lot of ways. YMMV.

------
bryanrasmussen
well one thing that's happened for me is that I have maybe an hour to work on
things a night, therefore I can only be creative in my chosen field, but
creativity as a general rule for me happens most when exploring the new, less
exploration of the new less creation.

The other thing is that while I might have great ideas I only have an hour a
night to work on them, therefore I will not be implementing them and the end
result is if someone would be trying to analyze my creative output now as
opposed to my youth when I had more time they would say ah, there has been a
precipitous drop in Bryan's creativity.

------
jv22222
For examples that go against this idea, check out the work of Maurice Sendak,
Julia Donoldson or the cartoon Sarah & Duck, all of which can give any kids
imagination a run for its money!

------
gt_
Speak for yourself haha. This is a matter of trajectory. As you get older,
you'll follow the trajectory you maintain. I exercise creativity more than
fitness and I feel incredible hahahaha.

Here's the key: Balance practice with theory.

It's very sad to see so many people correlate creativity with childishness.
What a farce!

Kids are an amazing source of inspiration, and I make a point to cherish every
moment around them. But, as you grow, you will probably develop more rigid
understandings of the world and society. There's little there that means you
are less creative; quite the contrary. But, maybe it's less likely you are
exercising it. There are a lot of misnomers out there these days, and the
understandings are not found where they should be (like art school).

The point about process is one of the hardest parts these days. Rare
alternative art histories offer radically different interpretations of
creativity, and they are usually more archaeologically/anthropologically sound
as well. Either way, our hurdles are related to many modern cultural trends
like habitual idolization, genius fantasies, missed relationships with time
and presence. It's a hard one and I have struggled with it a lot, so know
you're not alone. The reality is that art is so rarely abstracted in the mind
devoid of medium and time. Art is an interaction with materials and process
BUT NOT an obsession with them. Obsess on other things. The gap in the middle
harbors what we call the creativity. If you don't maintain the boundaries, you
won't maintain the gap. Or, if you focus on creativity, you're missing the
point and just getting older.

Good luck!!! Oh and put yourself into art history because it's all interpreted
anyhow. "We don't know! Let's find out!"

~~~
coldtea
> _Speak for yourself haha. This is a matter of trajectory. As you get older,
> you 'll follow the trajectory you maintain. I exercise creativity more than
> fitness and I feel incredible hahahaha._

[https://www.thehairpin.com/2017/07/men-you-dont-have-to-
writ...](https://www.thehairpin.com/2017/07/men-you-dont-have-to-write-haha-
at-the-end-of-statements/)

~~~
withholding
Thanks for this.

~~~
coldtea
Yeah, not meant as sneering -- just a note that some things are "redundant
syntax".

~~~
gt_
Note that they may just appear that way because you don't get the joke or
don't find it funny.

Sounds like sneering to me, but maybe I just don't find it funny.

For dummies: Using the same expression in different contexts, even in the same
paragraph, is useful and acceptable.

'Haha' is a literary representation of laughter. It's an expression of the
effect of laughter. The article you posted separates effect from cause,
splitting the possible jokes in half. This makes things awkward,
unsurprisingly. It's foolish and probably misinformed sneering.

Things can even get more complicated! You would be amazed: The more 'ha's, the
more laughter. An easy example why this is not redundancy is in the difference
between the half-hearted 'ha' and the more genuine 'haha' and the hyperloaded
'hahaha'.

Good luck out there!

------
z3t4
When young everything was easy, because you knew so little.

------
rothbardrand
This is average people in a statistically (hopefully) relevant study....
average people are not creatives. Average people get locked into world views
and ideology as they become adults. Average people don't take creative jobs.

Creative people-- that would be an interesting group to study.

As an older engineer, I'm not less creative. I'm slower at writing code, but I
need to write a lot less code. In the end I execute at the same speed or
faster than younger engineers (Who often seem to take off writing code before
they've thought thru the problem and end up shooting themselves in the foot
more often than coming up with an idea I hadn't considered. Not that there's
anything wrong with them on the balance, just not a slam dunk that younger
programmers are more productive.)

I don't see this declining with aging, though my patience with people who
can't respond to logic and facts is declining rapidly.

~~~
paulcole
>Average people don't take creative jobs.

Hi! Average person with a creative job here. I'm good at my work (writing) but
am otherwise not creative at all. I do it for money, stop thinking about it at
5PM, and that's it.

I come home, watch TV, and exercise. I have no interest in creativity except
that people will pay me for it.

~~~
roceasta
[https://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/s/samueljohn170103...](https://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/s/samueljohn170103.html)

------
sigi45
naive is not the same as creative.

------
known
As we age we succumb to our prejudices.

