
New Tech Centers Sprout in Europe - Terretta
https://www.wsj.com/articles/new-tech-centers-sprout-in-europe-1520337602
======
mabbo
Very happy to see Edinburgh get more recognition. I spent a year on exchange
there while at University and was just blown away by the city. Great tech
scene, incredible University (of Edinburgh), so much history and just
wonderful people.

If I ever decide to leave Canada, that's probably where I'll go.

~~~
dep_b
Of the cities mentioned it's the only one I would actually consider to live.
Perhaps Lisbon but I never visited it. Probably working for a local wage makes
it a lot less romantic.

~~~
pouta
You should give Porto a look. Way more romantic than Lisbon and a more
thriving tech/startup scene.

~~~
passiveincomelg
Or Edinburgh in the summer, Porto the rest of the year. :)

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pjc50
Paywall skip: [http://archive.is/9O1sv](http://archive.is/9O1sv)

Not very much detail on Edinburgh, just mentions Brainnwave (sic) and not
Skyscanner. It's a very cultural but also fairly expensive city. Perhaps
people will start moving into startup space round about the gentrification of
Leith or the space vacated by RBS.

~~~
cmdkeen
Expensive yes but a survey the other year had it as the best city in the UK
for disposable incomes, an average of £800 per month. Probably in part due to
the sizeable financial and legal sectors here. Given the fairly stiff
competition for developers in the central belt of Scotland my (biased!)
opinion is it is one of the best places to live in the UK, especially if you
have, or are planning, a family.

~~~
pjc50
Oh, I'm very fond of it myself, especially since I moved from Cambridge which
was far more expensive! I'm still trying to get a good feel for market depth.
Everyone wants frontend web devs it seems.

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montrose
I had been optimistic about Krakow becoming a big tech hub, but the Polish
government's shift toward authoritarianism makes that less likely.

~~~
cmdkeen
Having visited recently and met with several tech companies and western firms
utilising it I'd say it is already a tech hub, and has a bright future. The
sheer number of graduates being produced, and the proven ability to scale up
operations there makes it really attractive.

It is also a lovely city to visit, which is always worth bearing in mind when
it comes to where companies might open a satellite office...

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yazr
Are the devs/QA english speaking or just the managers ?!

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zootam
english is typically taught in primary school to everyone

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marak830
While I don't want to disagree with you about that locale, it's also taught
here in Japan, and the English level is abhorebt. (Source: part time English
teacher in Japan in my free time, taught every level from kindergarten to
senior highschool).

My point being, teaching from an early age, while is an advantage, does not
necessarily mean a good comprehension or ability to speak.

~~~
Tharkun
I had a chat with a bunch of Japanese university students last month. They
told me the same thing. They told me their English classes weren't too bad
when it came to grammar, but they hardly ever practiced speaking the language.
I can't even imagine learning a language without speaking it!

Edit: sausage fingers

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munchor
Abundance of highly skilled engineers willing to work for low rates make a
perfect setting for large consulting (and others) companies in Lisbon (and
probably other cities mentioned in the article).

Yes, the city is beautiful but don't expect high paying jobs. I know a couple
of YC-backed startups in Lisbon that get away with paying their software
engineers around 24-30K euros per year (post-tax).

~~~
4387wreiysu
>24-30k per year

that's better than the average in Portugal.

If you go to USA working at a job getting $100k a year you probably pay 30k or
more in taxes.

You're forgetting the _cost of living_.

~~~
vasco
Even factoring the cost of living, if you're getting 1500€ after tax in Lisbon
(which is an excellent salary for Portugal), and you pay rent on room in a
shared house (~400€) you're not going to be saving much. Plus, an iPhone costs
the same in Portugal as in the USA, if not more.

~~~
mping
The good devs in Europe are being hired as cheaper alternatives do the crazy
expensive devs in SF/NY/London, and they are as good. If you have a couple of
years experience and are earning 1.5 post tax, and you know what hacker news
is you are doing it wrong.

~~~
icebraining
Please tell me how I do it right, then, 'cause that's exactly what I'm seeing.

That paying much more would still be cheaper to them is irrelevant; in
SF/NY/LN they have competition for developers, in Lisbon the few that made the
jump are still the top dogs.

~~~
mping
It depends on your skillset, but either work for a company that has its HQ in
other location (and can afford to pay more) or work for a remote company.

mail me if you like, we can chat a bit more.

~~~
icebraining
Thanks, I'd love to talk more! You don't have your email visible, though (the
email field is hidden, you have to copy it to the "about" field).

Mine is hn@andreparames.com, if you prefer to avoid posting yours.

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Metaluim
Now all I need is for wages to be actually attractive in Lisbon, given the
rising rents.

~~~
coinerone
You mean like Berlin, where you get max. 36k€ a year for Full Stack Dev and
pay 13k€ for Rent? I think the main reason for Cities in Europe become tech
hubs is the extreme low cost for Devs and other tech people.

~~~
hocuspocus
New grads can get 50k in Berlin. You'd be an idiot to move there for less than
60-70k these days. I'm constantly hit up by recruiters who're trying to lure
me back for 80-90k.

~~~
blocked_again
Are you exaggerating or serious? Would it be too difficult to live there if I
make ~45k?

~~~
hocuspocus
The lowest junior engineer job grade at my previous company started at 50k +
8% bonus, and salaries went up to 90k base + 15% bonus for a principal
engineer, with a pretty linear progression for the titles in between (mid-
level, senior, lead). This company pays above average, but it's not the best
paying in town, not even close. There are few ones (Amazon, eBay, SAP, car
makers... even a few startups with deep pockets) that pay more than that.

If single, you will have a blast in Berlin with 45k. If you're moving with a
dependent, that's a bit tight (as a newcomer, you will never find the best
deals regarding accommodation, there's a fair supply of newly built apartments
in Berlin, but they aren't cheap).

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tradedash
The question we have to ask is: what classifies as a tech hub/center?

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dziungles
So is the Lisbon tech startup scene active? I like the city a lot and was
thinking about moving there.

What about language barrier? Do people speak English?

~~~
gpvos
English speaking ability is pretty good and widespread in Portugal. In Spain,
however, it's the opposite.

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schnevets
I was extremely impressed by Budapest and Bratislava on a recent trip to
Europe.

I'm surprised the article doesn't mention either of them by name, but I
suppose if, as the article states, "Every company is a tech company now”, then
any city with a half-decent economy is a tech city now.

~~~
bane
I suspect Budapest's tech companies exist because there's a very unusual
market in Hungary due to being a language isolate. I saw lots of homegrown
companies and ways of doing things of all types there.

Bratislava on the other hand looks like it's being rebuilt almost from the
ground up, has a reasonable tech scene (even hosts demoscene parties!) and
also has some of the friendliest people I've ever met anywhere. Eset seems to
be the anchor company.

~~~
skrebbel
Hey, even Saarbruecken hosts demoscene parties :-)

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Gys
> “You might say every company is a tech company now,” said Tom Carroll,
> European head of corporate research at real-estate services firm JLL.

Where 'tech' is probably to be understood as 'relying heavily on software'.

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Glawen
I'm surprised to see Edinburgh, when I graduated in Glasgow 10 years ago, me
and my fellow students had to find jobs in the London area. Has the situation
changed so much ?

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gsnedders
As someone who graduated from the University of Glasgow in 2014, those from my
year (and those who did an MSci, graduating in 2015) who've remained in
Glasgow (that I'm aware of) mostly work at one of two places: JPMorgan (who
have a large tech centre in the city) and Skyscanner.

~~~
expertentipp
> Skyscanner

What's their product exactly? In terms of flight search ITA's Matrix beats
them IMO.

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vadimberman
Can anyone comment on the taxation situation?

I mean, it may not be very interesting in the beginning when the earnings are
not very far from zero, but as the startup grows, and the stock incentives
become more tangible, it's becoming relevant. I was personally looking at
Barcelona once but the moment I looked at how much taxes they pay, I dropped
the idea.

~~~
crispyporkbites
I don't think taxes in the US are much lower than in Europe, as most people
seem to assume e.g. here's a comparison which puts them close to the same, but
note that it excludes property tax, which is pretty high in the US:

[https://www.theguardian.com/money/2017/may/27/tax-britons-
pa...](https://www.theguardian.com/money/2017/may/27/tax-britons-pay-europe-
australia-us)

~~~
vadimberman
A weird comparison. I wonder where he took the numbers from.

I can tell from experience that the Australian taxation authorities make the
US taxation authorities look like a gift-giving Santa. I also dealt
extensively with Europe, and Europe is by far worse than Australia in that
respect. (A note to the dear Americans, I am not an American who went to
Australia, it's the other way around.)

And then they mix in mandatory pension contributions for some, which makes the
comparison even weirder.

Also note that this comparison is for long-term residents, not for expats or
entrepreneurs that are there for a few years and may not be as interested in
the social programs.

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amelius
I hope they are real tech centers, and not centers where investors can pour
money into hyped up IT products.

~~~
expertentipp
> centers where investors can pour money into hyped up IT products

We don't have these in EU. More like centers where the profits are sucked out
from the cheap and desperate labor.

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apexalpha
Nothing for Amsterdam or Eindhoven?

Also, they seem to mean 'software' not 'tech'. But sure.

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pjmlp
Nice to see Lisbon on the list.

~~~
tomcooks
It's going to be a pity to see that beautiful city disappear due to
startupgentrificageddon.

~~~
to_bpr
Depends on how it's handled. If it's bastardized with US companies coming in
to exploit the existing low salaries and then suppress them by co-ordinating
and fighting to bring in others from other low-paid countries, then yes it's
likely going to be ruinous to it.

If it's a small, European centric scene, by Europeans and for Europeans which
grows organically outward then it stands a chance to enrich the city.

Personally I'm not much of an advocate for Europe welcoming SV folks and their
VC masters in.

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expertentipp
Lisbon? I've heard only horror stories about the rent/salary ratio. Portuguese
emigrate in volumes comparable to Poles/Romanians and there is a reason for
this.

Krakow? If you fancy working at the complete bottom of the corporate hierarchy
at IBM/Capgemini/Accenture/etc, or for some Scandinavian/German cheapskates.
Rents went through the roof as well.

~~~
Daishiman
> Portuguese emigrate in volumes comparable to Poles/Romanians and there is a
> reason for this.

This used to be the case up until a few years ago but having spoken with many
young Portuguese there's a serious resurgence of tech and arts scenes.

~~~
pjmlp
There is, but since I live abroad the community on my region has been
increasing quite a lot in the last 10 years, with very few willing to return.

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rehemiau
> Lisbon, Kraków, Poland, and Edinburgh are among the cities that have become
> popular for the industry

Since when Poland is a city?

~~~
mabbo
They may have been trying to specify it, like [Lisbon], [Kraków, Poland],
[Edinburgh]. They're readers may have literally not heard of Kraków before and
need that. Unfortunately, the English language uses the comma for multiple
purposes so you get messes like that headline.

~~~
yorwba
I think they could have used a semicolon instead, as in "Lisbon; Kraków,
Poland; Edinburgh are ...".

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pavlakoos
Why is country name enlisted in one line with city names?

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dozzie
I'm glad that both _cities_ , Poland and Kraków, are popular. The journalist
should learn how to read a map, though.

~~~
shaki-dora
Ort you should learn to read, period. They’re just specifying the country, not
including it in the list. They do it even in London, England.

~~~
dozzie
> They’re just specifying the country, not including it in the list.

Yeah, no, not quite. Only one city got that treatment, so it's not an invalid
interpretation. The alternative to the journalist who cannot read a map is
that the journalist should learn how to write, but either way it's an error of
WSJ.

