
Ask HN: Should I go to Sweden for work? - cosmorocket
I have been freelancing from home in Moscow, Russia for 4 years now as a frontend developer and as a self-taught UI&#x2F;UX specialist. There were good and bad times in regard to work&#x2F;life balance, money, clients and myself. I am not a famous rockstar freelancer, but during recent 2 years I have been earning $7-$10k per month average, making my clients quite happy and being able to support my wife and our two children. Before starting freelancing I had been working for 8 years at a local publishing house where I got from an ordinary designer to a head of IT dept serving 20+ daily&#x2F;monthly editions.<p>Now I feel like I am ready to perform a next step in my life, in regard to my career. Recently I have received a job offer from a company in Stockholm doing a software as a service, for a position of a frontend developer. I had a talk via Skype with a couple of representatives of the company and in the end they offered me to visit their office to have a detailed talk as they seem to be quite content with skill I have shown so far. Surely they offer benefits, work permit visa and other things like a vacation, insurance.<p>I googled for average salaries for a position like mine there in Stockholm as well as in other Sweden cities. I have also found some more info about life there, costs, conditions, climate and so on. I know &#x27;average salary&#x27; doesn&#x27;t give much info about my specific potential salary I can get there. But at least I see the range and it&#x27;s quite different from my current income knowing that I will have to pay for an apartment, likely pay more for food and other things I don&#x27;t yet know about. On the other hand, may be it will be a good start for me to go networking, finding new opportunities, improving my skills.<p>So, please advise, what things I should consider while deciding? Did you face similar choice when you were offered with a job while you were freelancing? How did you choose to accept or to reject a full time job? What are important factors for you? Can it be a real move forward or more like a deadlock turning me into a small gear in a big mechanism? How can I setup my priorities properly not to say in a year or two I have had lost them?<p>I know many of the questions are subjective but I would like to hear from people who were in the same situation like mine.<p>Thanks!
======
mrmekon
I moved to Stockholm from the US earlier this year. The salary is supposedly
good for Stockholm, but about 20-30% lower than offers I had in the US. I took
it because I particularly loved the idea of living in Sweden, and I was not
disappointed.

Comparing the cost of living is difficult. I don't know anything about the
lifestyle in Moscow, but the US is so _extremely_ different from Sweden that
it turns out I did all of my comparisons wrong... I thought my expendable
income would go down by moving here, but it actually went up. This is not
because Stockholm is cheaper (it's much, much more expensive), but because I
imitate the Swedish lifestyle, and the Swedish lifestyle is much cheaper than
the American lifestyle :)

Swedish salaries aren't going to make you wealthy, they are just going to make
you comfortable. And if you live your whole life here and retire here, the
government programs will keep you comfortable through your retirement. It's a
good system to live in long-term, but it's not the most competitive for short-
term positions.

Most of my friends here are non-Swedish europeans, and I really only see two
stances: either they moved here because they needed a job and they can't wait
to move home, or they moved here because they wanted to live in Sweden and
they love it. Marriage complicates it even more... some love it, but their
spouses desperately want to move home. (good news: young children seem to
transition very well)

If you or your wife is particularly _against_ moving to Sweden, drop it
immediately. You'll probably never get over that. But if it sounds like a fun
adventure, then it probably is! If the first thing you want to do here is find
some surströmming and köttbullar, you'll have a good time... if the first
thing you want to do is find other Russian expats and a Russian food market,
it's going to be a long winter.

~~~
mjn
Out of curiosity, what do you find cheaper about the Swedish lifestyle? Moving
from California to Denmark, I have sort of a vague feeling that's true for me
also, but having trouble coming up with any specifics! I did get rid of my
car, which is one big source of savings on insurance/gas/maintenance (plus a
nice one-time $10k from selling it). But apart from that, I'm not too sure
what's different. Maybe I eat out less as well, and do more picnics in the
summer.

~~~
zalew
I haven't been to Sweden, but I assume he's talking about not being that keen
on hanging out at the shopping mall where you get overcharged for shitty food
when you get hungry from buying too much stuff you don't really need and
spending half an hour looking for parking space after a 30km high-traffic ride
from home.

------
fvrghl
I can tell you a little about Sweden's culture, as I've just moved to Sweden
as part of a study abroad program at my university in the USA. Sweden is
amazing; it's very clean, and there is very little crime here. The average
standard of living here is very high, and as a result, Sweden is crazy
expensive. Also, Swedes can be kind of cold. Someone in one of my classes told
me that it is uncommon for Swedes to make new friends after 21. Maybe that
person was exaggerating, but I have noticed that people here are less open.
The tech scene is very welcoming though. I've been to a few tech events around
the city, and the people there have been very helpful and nice. I think
Stockholm is a great place to live, and if you have a salary that matches the
standard of living here (unlike my student budget), I think you will enjoy it.

~~~
seivan
There was a mass shooting by a gang in one of the Ghettos yesterday. Before
that a couple of clicks east of there, a guy got stabbed in a tunnel. Before
that a lady who passed out outside her door (forgot her keys, was drunk) got
dragged into her apartment and raped by her neighbours (who ended up bragging
about it to other neighbours) All in a Sunday.

There's more Crime in Sweden than you think.

~~~
flexie
Let's not exaggerate the crime in Sweden. The best measure for crime is the
homicide rate (since death is harder to fake than for example theft, and since
it rarely goes unreported as for example rape). The homicide rate for Sweden
is 1/10 of that of Russia:
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentiona...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate)

~~~
pingvingryta
You were slightly ahead of me :)

------
sandstrom
I'm sure there are lots of questions and it's hard to address all of them.
Some spontaneous thoughts:

\- Stockholm is really expensive, housing as well as other living expenses[1]

\- Salaries are okay, but probably not as high as in some other places

\- Climate is awesome in the summer, and much less so during the winter.

There are some upsides too:

\- Lots of tech companies, so switching jobs shouldn't be too difficult should
you want to.

\- Some would say it's one of the better cities in the world to live in and
grow up. As The Economist puts it "If you had to be reborn anywhere in the
world as a person with average talents and income, you would want to be a
Viking." This is great for your children.[2]

\- People are good at english, so getting setup should be easy. Low level of
bureaucracy as well. I'd still advice that you learn Swedish though.

Many other aspects of course, the actual company you are considering is
probably the most important. However, that's hard to speak to in general
terms.

(I'm not really neutral, since I'm Swedish)

[1]
[http://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/picturegalleries/9554951/T...](http://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/picturegalleries/9554951/The-
worlds-most-expensive-cities.html?frame=2345267)

[2]
[http://www.economist.com/news/leaders/21571136-politicians-b...](http://www.economist.com/news/leaders/21571136-politicians-
both-right-and-left-could-learn-nordic-countries-next-supermodel)

------
jzet
I did my masters degree in Stockholm and one thing I think is very important
to know is that it is very difficult to find a job without speaking proper
Swedish, so if you go to Sweden and at some point decide to change jobs, it
might be difficult if you didn't learn Swedish yet. I was in a CS masters
program with about 30 other international students and none of us even got a
IT related side job (not even at the international companies like IBM, ...)
although Kista as part of Stockholm likes to be called "the IT capital of
europe ...".

Besides that, I really wouldn't worry about crime etc. Swedes definitely have
a different perception to crime and danger in general compared to the rest of
the world I'd say, simply because Sweden is so peaceful.

I lived in Husby, which is considered "ghetto" by Swedes and the riots this
year happened pretty much in front of my door. I didn't even notice anything
and was never scared to walk home at night, but every Swede I talked to
reacted pretty shocked when I told them where I lived. So I really wouldn't
worry about that, especially if you got along in Moscow.

~~~
marvin
Good point - "ghetto" in Scandinavia usually means that if you are drunk and
in general indisposed, you'll be a bit more perceptive to your surroundings
than usual if you walk home alone after midnight.

------
MortenK
A couple of things:

You have to be absolutely certain that they will supply living and work permit
for both you and your family. Immigration laws are very strict in Scandinavia,
so you'd obviously want to be certain there won't be any nasty surprises with
getting your wife and children here.

Living costs in Moscow and Stockholm is not that far from each other.

A full-time position as a front-end developer usually won't pay through the
roof. However a good front-ender never needs to look far for a new job.

Career-wise where you'd really be able to take a leap is after a year or two
as a frontend dev at this Stockholm company. By then you have working permit
sorted out, a Swedish referral and maybe a little knowledge of the language.

When you have these things you can break into front-end contracting for
customers in Sweden or other countries in Scandinavia (Oslo, Norway is
particularly booming at the moment).

Front-end contracting is typically full-time contracts on-location for between
6 and 12 months. It typically pays 100+ USD an hour, meaning a monthly income
of 16K USD or so given a standard 40 hour workweek. If you have the skills
(and it sounds like you do), the contracts are pretty easy to get by using
agencies who are always looking for new development talent.

It's very hard to jump directly into contracting in Sweden from Russia,
particularly due to the whole work-visa problem. But once you are inside, it's
a very viable opportunity.

If your wife enjoys learning languages, there is free Swedish language
education (she can even apply for a "learning bonus" of around 1000 USD pr 6
weeks or so). Once you are in, there's also (almost) free health care and
such.

Stockholm is a lovely city, and it's only a 2,5 hour flight from Moscow,
priced typically at around 400-500 USD round-trip.

~~~
pathy
>Front-end contracting is typically full-time contracts on-location for
between 6 and 12 months. It typically pays 100+ USD an hour, meaning a monthly
income of 16K USD or so given a standard 40 hour workweek.

A lot of those 16K will go away in taxes and social costs though. I am not
sure what most freelancers use for estimates but somewhere between 50-75%
should probably be deducted before getting a comparable number to a salary.

~~~
MortenK
Yeah that's true, expect around 50-55% of any pay (contracting or salary) to
go to the tax man. As an employee, you get 6 weeks paid holiday, 5-8% of your
salary in pension and you also get paid when you are ill. When you are
contracting you get none of those things. A good rule of thumb is to deduct
20-25% of the contractor pay to reach comparable employee salary.

Still, 25% off 16K is 12K before tax. As a full-time frontender in Stockholm,
you'd generally be around 5-6K before tax.

------
borisquiroz
I moved from Santiago, Chile to Göteborg on December last year, it wasn't so
good to me but my advice is "go ahead".

Some thoughts I'd like to share:

1\. Ask people on your new job for help to find a good place to live. Rent
market in Sweden is very complicated, and you'll find yourself in a queue for
at least 6 months. Don't try [http://www.blocket.se/](http://www.blocket.se/)
as there's a lot of scam there.

2\. You'll love public transportation and internet connectivity, they really
rocks!

3\. Taxes are not as expensive as people used to say. Same thing with food and
some other stuffs.

4\. It's a great opportunity to grow up as a professional

5\. I hate the weather in Sweden, too cold to me :)

6\. Don't worry about the language, everybody in Sweden speak English.

7\. Göteborg is a small city, so it's not dangerous at all. Different story in
Stockholm, you have to be careful with that.

------
nisse72
Finding a rental apartment in Stockholm can be a nightmare unless you're happy
commuting from the distant suburbs. It can take many years (even decades) of
queuing to get something within the central city ("inom tullarna"), and there
is a large black market where rental contracts are sold. You might be able to
find sublets, which tend to be for short times only (typically less than 2
years) and even then, competition can be tough unless you know someone looking
for a tenant. If you're not in a position to buy, I'd strongly suggest you get
your employer to help you find a place to live, or perhaps even rent it for
you.

That said, Stockholm is a great city and I'd jump at the opportunity.

------
abcd_f
FWIW, Stockholm is a very pleasant place to _live_. I had a chance to live in
many countries and Sweden has this very unique calm, balanced and relaxed vibe
to it. It is bloody obvious compared to Moscow, but it is also evident
compared to Finland for example.

Also, I know a couple of Russians who went from no Swedish to conversational
level in just 3 months. It's a simple language to pick up.

All in all, just go, talk to them and have a look around. Even if you accept
and end up regretting it, you still will end up with a bit of immersion living
in another (comfortable and interesting) country and that never hurts ;)

------
alexmic
Hey!

I recently moved to Stockholm from London to join a startup as a software
engineer. Here's my experience so far:

Stockholm is a lovely city. Small enough to not be too hectic, but big enough
to offer a broad variety of things to do. On average, I would say it's
expensive – more than London at least – but I think I'm still living like a
tourist instead of a local. You're going to have to hunt for the good and
cheap places. On the other hand, rent is cheaper. The salaries are lower
compared to London and what you've been earning as a freelancer in Moscow but
I believe 1000EUR/month spending money for a single person should be enough
for a good standard of living.

The startup scene is really picking up. There's a number of excellent startups
and an attitude towards substance over hype. There are also quite a lot of
events happening in the tech and startup scene and most of them are on
meetup.com.

I'm 26, single, no kids, so my situation is different than yours. When it came
to make a decision, salary was not my top priority. The company and people
were pretty cool so I just went with it. I was getting a bit bored in London
anyway, so I wanted a new experience.

Whether it will be a move forward or not it's completely up to you, but I
think Stockholm has the potential and infrastructure to help you progress
individually and career-wise.

------
msvan
Stockholm is lovely but the housing market is a mess. Decades of idiotic
policies have halted the construction of new apartments shot the prices
through the roof. Just this week I was talking to someone who was renting out
his one-room apartment for more than USD 1800/month. If you want to live
centrally, prepare to pay for it.

~~~
pathy
To add to this, to get a contract via the government run queue for rentals[1]:

Average time in queue in the Stockholm region: 8.5 years.

Average time in queue for central Stockholm: 15 Years.

If you don't want to wait that long, you generally have to a) sub-let, which
as the example above shows, is very expensive. b) buy something, which in the
central areas of Stockholm cost something like 50-80K SEK per square meter.

[1] [http://www.dn.se/sthlm/lang-bostadsko-i-
stockholm/](http://www.dn.se/sthlm/lang-bostadsko-i-stockholm/)

------
nodesocket
I consulted with a startup in Stockholm Sweden for 2.5 months at the start of
the year. It was an amazing experience, and needless to say I had an absolute
blast. Made many great friends, a few of which have come to SF to visit me
since. It is cold Dec-Feb, but around March starts getting nice, and Swedes
come out and play.

General Rules:

\- Don't talk to people on the subway. Swedes like their public transportation
silent. :)

\- Swedes like coffee.

\- It is expensive as hell to eat out (daily), and go to bars often. I did it
anyway.

\- Swedes are very punctual and schedule oriented. They generally work 9-5pm,
even in startups.

\- Don't wait until Saturday to stock up on adult beverages, the lines at the
Systembolaget can get insane.

\- Learn to ice skate (or play Hockey), fun activity during the winter.

\- Swedish pizza is amazing. Great thin crust.

~~~
dagw
Everything is he wrote is true, expect the bit about pizza. Swedish pizza is a
culinary abomination and the people responsible for the kebab pizza should
stand trial for crimes against humanity.

If I could improve one thing about Sweden it would definitely be the pizza.

~~~
nodesocket
Funny, I am a fan of the kebab pizza. The place on the corner of Götgatan and
Ölandsgatan was my favorite.

------
jp1989
Self promotional, but anyone looking for Swedish Startup Jobs can check out
our job board. Mostly dev positions
[http://swedishstartupspace.com/jobs/](http://swedishstartupspace.com/jobs/)

------
TiduZ
I live in Norway, right over the border of sweden. What we experience is that
people for sweden move over here, becouse the pay is better. As a software -
engineer, pay is much higher in Norway.

------
Wobblebobble
Is $10k per month considered a normal salary for a developer in Russia? Where
I live (not Sweden but close, also a far higher GDP per capita than Russia)
you'd have to be among the best in your field to expect to be paid even half
that much.

------
angularly
Taxes are alot higher than in Russia. You'll probably end up paying 50-60% in
total taxes (income + sales + various other hidden taxes on consumer goods
etc.). So thats something to consider.

~~~
pingvingryta
If you are a freelancer, as an employee it's around 30%.

~~~
samuellb
Yes, but your employer pays taxes too. It's supposed to add up to the same
amount (although big businesses often manage to game the tax system in one way
or another).

------
tlarkworthy
If you have never lived outside your native culture before, then moving and
immersing yourself in a different culture will be mind expanding. Even if you
don't like the experience, you will learn who _you_ are better. That knowledge
will strengthen you for the rest of your life.

------
subsystem
If you can find a rent controlled (or otherwise modestly priced) apartment in
the city, otherwise I wouldn't bother. It's also not something you can easily
offset by a higher salary.

------
frigg
Hello,

I'm not from Sweden but if you could post an approximation of the salary they
offered maybe someone who lives there might better answer how you will manage.
Good luck!

~~~
cosmorocket
What the guy in charge for money said was something around $4-$5k per month
before taxes which seems quite low to me.

~~~
fsniper
If you are currently making $7-$10k on average, why would you relocate to an
foreign country and make less on a monthly base? Also seems like you are
married with 2 children. Relocating your family will be more expensive than
your first thought because most probably you will have to cover their visa
expenses. You all need to get familiar with "aliens".

If I were you I would offer remote service to that company but would not
relocate there. If they accept it's a win win. Other wise you can continue
freelance.

~~~
pathy
There might be benefits other than the wage that make up for it.

I am not sure about Russian healthcare and so forth but free healthcare,
education, childcare (cheap at least) and such might make up for it.

~~~
fsniper
That's fair but I believe these can be accounted by lower than the difference
of monthly revenues.

------
Tichy
Can you ask them to pay you sufficiently?

------
seivan
Be ready to pay up for a place to stay in Stockholm, I'm native and I gotta
stay in queue in order to get to rent. There is no free market for apartments
- at least not for rentals. You can take your chance at the Swedish equivalent
of Craigs List or get to know someone. I've given up and decided to buy.

Taxes aren't as high as people complain about, unless you're a freelancer.
Small businesses get screwed royally and don't get much support compared to
larger ones, but as an employee you will have it decent. You get what you pay
for. Compared to say in Singapore, where you pay nada, and get nada. Some
people like it.

Crime and religious extremism is in all time high. They do correlate to some
degree. I lived in SG for two years, and I felt incredibly safe there (not
even locking our door) coming back to Sweden, I feel a but more paranoid about
having my laptop in my outside compartment of my bag.

I'm too scared to pickup my iPhone from my pocket when walking home late.

Public Transport is amazing. Trains across Sweden, is less so. I got stuck or
eleven hours one winter. They seem incredibly amazed that it snows in
Winter... each year.

Dining out is also pretty cool. Not as much variety as I'd like, but the level
between fine dining and regular dining on the food quality is pretty similar.
So if you're ok not having a waiter, you can pay less and still have decent
food.

Language skills... nothing to say here. Every Swede can speak and write
English. You won't have problems here.

~~~
vanderZwan
I think your nativity makes you miss a few problems simply because they never
cross your path. For example:

> _Language skills... nothing to say here. Every Swede can speak and write
> English. You won 't have problems here._

This is true insofar as that I've been studying Interaction Design in Sweden
for one and a half years now (one half year to go) and I have not needed to
learn Swedish. However, I've been informed that to get _employed_ in Sweden
it's quite vital that you know Swedish. There's plenty of jobs where you don't
even really need to know Swedish, but they demand it anyway to give the local
people a bigger chance.

To give an example: I know of other students who couldn't get a job delivering
newspapers because they didn't speak Swedish because, and I quote "suppose a
stranger on the street asks you for directions, how are you going to help
them?" which is obviousy part of the job description of newspaper delivery
boy.

Can't say how that translates for jobs like UX, although I hear similar stuff
from graduates: knowing Swedish is almost necessary if you want to get
employed.

I'm quite surprised about your fears at night - I live in Malmö (which has a
reputation) and have never felt threatened or in danger at all.

~~~
seivan
You're partially right here. But for software engineering or general
tech/science, English is sufficient. You don't need Swedish. We got a couple
of English speakers at my current place of employment and there are no issues
here.

But yeah, regarding other types of job, without Swedish, you'll have it tough.
My partner speaks fluent Mandarin and English and has a Bachelors degree with
honours. Will probably have an incredible tough time finding a job in
"Communications". Ugh... Shit degree but you didn't hear that from me.

~~~
mjn
Copenhagen is a bit more English-friendly in employment from what I gather,
even outside tech, so could be an option for people who want to stay in
Scandinavia but have trouble finding an English-language job in Sweden. For
example the entire Maersk corporation, the largest employer in Denmark, is
English-only for corporate business and hiring, except a few jobs that
interact with things like the Danish government, local catering, etc. My guess
as to why is that Danish tends to be harder than Swedish for foreigners to
learn to a level that Danes can understand, so companies don't expect them to.

Some couples straddle Copenhagen–Malmö (35 minutes by train from each other
across the strait).

