

Why installing software on the Mac is really confusing even for advanced users. - amichail

Ideally, software installation should work the same way every time and require no thinking on the part of the user.  This is generally true on Windows but not on the Mac.<p>On the Mac, you have several cases and the user needs to recognize and understand them then take appropriate action:<p>Case 1: you have an executable that you are expected to copy to a suitable directory (e.g., Applications)... not hard but requires the user to recognize this case and think about where to copy the file<p>Case 2: you have an installation program that you run... which could be just as easy as Windows except for the fact that such programs typically expect you to drag the app icon to the Applications directory from the install program (!) essentially giving us a roundabout case 1<p>Case 3:  the software comes in the form of a dmg file.  A user would probably have no idea what this is or what to do with it.  It's not clear whether one should extract the contents of this file or use it as is.  One might wonder about whether the app would even run correctly without extracting the contents of the file (e.g., it might attempt to write to a directory in the file).  When double clicked, the file is mounted -- not an obvious notion for users to understand.  The mounted file also clutters the desktop.  Clicking on the mounted file icon will not start the app but it may start an install program OR show the contents of the image. Quitting the app will not unmount the file. The file can be unmounted manually (e.g., to reduce desktop clutter), but it's not clear what this does -- will it delete the app?  Will it just stop the app from running?  Can you unmount the file while the app is running?  What happens if you attempt to run the app again after you have unmounted its image?  Not only will the app start, but you will also see the contents of the mounted image OR have the install program run again.<p>The Mac version of Open Office is particularly bad when it comes to understanding its installation.  It comes in the form of a dmg file, but it also requires you to drag the app executable to the Applications directory.  Even more confusing is that it runs its install program to tell you to do this when you mount its dmg file.<p>Exactly what problem(s) does this dmg file address and why is it not needed in Windows?
======
unalone
Case 1: the application is not an executable. It is a bundled package. There
are significant differences. Meanwhile, it can run from _anywhere_. I run
applications from my Downloads folder. And Spotlight still recognizes it as an
application. The Applications folder is merely a convenience.

Case 2 does _not_ require you to drag the file. If you run an installer
package it automatically adds the program to the right folder.

Case 3: DMG files auto-mount when Safari downloads them (and they should for
other browsers, too). This lets developers add a shortcut to the Application
folder.

 _The Mac version of Open Office demonstrates the worst of all cases._

OpenOffice is a terrible program. It's bad on Windows, it's bad on Ubuntu.

That said: there's some terminology you need to know. A DMG is a disk image.
That should be simple. It's a virtual disk. An application is an app. An
installer is an installer. Apple doesn't bullshit you. Unlike Windows, they
don't refer to something by vague, nebulous terms. They tell you EXACTLY what
something does.

So when I boot the DMG, it contains an application. That app IS the app. It
tells me to drag the app to the applications folder, as a courtesy. I don't
have to. I can move the app to my root folder, or to my Movies folder, or I
can mount the disk image every time. That's like putting a CD in to run a
program, only virtual. That's a logical spatial metaphor unless you
deliberately misread everything.

Now, Apple had a problem, which is: "How do we help people organize their
apps?" They allowed for multiple solutions to this. The first is the
installer, which is overkill. (Windows overuses this because they think
usability isn't worth their time. As a result, users install crap on their
computer.) The second is that an application can, with permission, move
itself. The third is that they let developers modify the Finder window. That
means you can write instructions telling people to move an application to the
App folder, which you saw.

Isn't that great?! No password. Nothing special. They just gave you a disk
that shows you both the application and the folder it ought to be in, and they
let you drag it. It's brilliant!

 _Exactly what problem(s) does this dmg file address and why is it not needed
in Windows?_

Amichail, I don't know you, so forgive me if this is impertinent, but you
don't seem to have a clue about how Macs work. You don't seem to have put any
research into the ideas behind OS X. You also exhibit an irrational pro-
Windows bias.

I used Windows for seventeen years. In that time, I suffered no small amount
of horrors thanks to the fucked-up system that is the executable file. Files
that auto-execute slow up my computer. They run without asking and copy
themselves all over my system. They release viruses. They encourage sloppy
coding habits. Don't you _dare_ suggest that Windows' system doesn't require
thinking. Get an 80-year-old, direct them to the download page for, say,
Google Toolbar, which has a GOOD installer, and say nothing. See if they
figure out how to download the executable, run it, and get it working.
Internet Explorer has a fix by asking you immediately to run an EXE, but that
leads to lots of nasty things getting executed by accident.

The Mac system is beautiful in its simplicity. I'll go so far as to accuse you
of deliberately misunderstanding things to paint an anti-Mac situation, which
is pretty irrational on my part, because I have such a love for the system,
which works like this:

* You have a dock entry for Downloads for things you download. This bounces when you get a new downloaded item.

* Click that stack and it opens up so you can click the newest thing.

* If it's an app, it runs. It doesn't mess things up like an EXE because an app can't write to certain parts of your computer than an EXE can. That means that even if you launch an app, it can't do much to screw up your computer.

* The Applications folder is not magic. It just has a label for you to dump things. You don't ever need to use it. That said, the fact that there IS an Applications folder beats the pants off of Program Files.

* Some programs need more access to system files. They have an installer, which gives you more information about the application and asks you to enter a password.

* Programs that need more than a single package use a disk-mounted image, which is LIKE the shitty fucking programs that use shitty fucking zip to bundle a ReadMe on Windows. The difference is that on Mac, this fulfills a very useful work metaphor. Think of it like inserting a CD into your computer, only virtually. Just as your computer mounts the CD, so too does it mount the disk containing your various files.

Applications aren't DMGs. Applications are applications. The problem is that
WINDOWS is fucked up. They let executables be both installers and actual
programs, and their file handling is so appalling that people are never
certain just where a program is. Is it that original exe? Is it somewhere in
Program Files, which is a veritable wasteland? People get used to it after a
decade of learning this twisted, bizarre, sad system, but that doesn't make it
any less fucked.

So if I put in a CD and there's an application, and it gives me a big window
with a shortcut to the Applications folder with an arrow saying "Drag this to
this folder," and I do so, and then I eject the CD, wouldn't I be pretty
damned stupid to assume that the application was broken? (Well, maybe in
Windows, where it's still good work habits to make programs that require CDs
to run, but in the rest of the world?)

DMGs don't add clutter. They're a Finder window. If I close it, they stay
plugged in, because Apple's idea is that a window and an application should
not be one and the same. Same goes for DMGs. If I close a CD's browser window
in Windows, does that eject the CD? No. That would be very stupid.

Either you're very, very deluded thanks to overuse of Windows, or you're
deliberately casting the Mac in a bad light, which I find despicable. I'm
sorry for ranting - it's rude and possibly offensive to you - but at the same
time, I simply can't imagine how you could find something wrong here unless
you were going out of your way. You seem to have a thing for Windows 7, and I
have sympathy for you, but in your last post and in this one you're going out
of your way to disparage a very good system that makes things simple, and your
defense is ignoring the fact that the Windows alternative to the Mac system is
_exactly why Windows is as bad as it is._ You could have attacked the many
failings of OS X, but you instead insulted something that it does better than
Windows in every way.

~~~
amichail
Expecting people to research how the Mac works just to install software is
asking a bit too much.

Instead of taking my comments as an attack on the Mac, why not view them as
first impressions that may be shared by potentially many other people?

~~~
unalone
I don't expect you to. I expect you to intuitively understand it, like pretty
much everybody I've seen using a Mac does. The spatial metaphor is pretty easy
to grasp, unless you're convinced that the executable is the only way to go,
in which case your viewpoint is twisted.

 _Instead of taking my comments as an attack on the Mac, why not view them as
first impressions that may be shared by potentially many other people?_

Because you're not making useful lists. I'm sorry if this offends you, but
from my perspective you've been writing little half-posts about small things
you don't like, without any backup. You're not giving screenshots or any sort
of information, you're posting small snippets, and I don't consider that to be
worth an HN post - even if you _are_ using this site for your blog.

Furthermore, I'm irritated that you posted this as a new post rather than as a
comment on your last post, which could have been posted as a comment on your
post before that. If you've got gripes, take your time and make a single good
post, get pictures, phrase your ideas in a good way, and then post it all in
one, so we can have one single discussion rather than a fractured one across a
bunch of posts that come close to being flag-worthy by my standards.

~~~
amichail
FYI, I still think dmg files are a bad idea.

BTW, vista and windows 7 won't let programs mess up the OS without your
permission. And most programs -- properly written -- don't need to access any
critical parts of the OS.

~~~
unalone
Funny, because my family Vistabox got pretty badly virused in a month's time.
We thought we'd try to run it without antivirus.

Meanwhile, I'm nearing my year anniversary with my Mac, which has no viruses
and still goes as quickly as it did on Day 1.

How are DMGs a bad idea? They do no wrong.

~~~
amichail
Macs are great if you don't want to deal with viruses. No need to even run an
antivirus program.

On Windows, you should run one and there are some excellent commercial ones
you can use.

I've already explained why DMGs are bad. They are confusing and cause clutter.

~~~
unalone
Do DMGs cause more clutter for applications than Program Files does on
Windows? If I want to find a specific program's exe then it's extremely time-
consuming, versus opening either a DMG or the app folder and clicking the icon
that's very prominent. No app has two app icons; some programs have multiple
exes.

I'd argue that the need for commercial protection on Windows is a bad thing in
and of itself, but I'm a little tired of this argument. We've each made our
respective points.

~~~
amichail
Finding stuff including executables is very easy under Windows. Just search
for it just as you would with spotlight under the Mac. No need to browse
through a start menu.

------
tlrobinson
Just the other day I had to walk my mom through installing Firefox on a Mac.
Trying to explain what to do was very enlightening.

As a power user I very much like the standard way of "installing" apps on OS X
by dragging them from DMGs, but for the average user a basic installer would
be easier.

