
British divers make contact with missing Thai football team - curtis
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/jul/02/twelve-boys-missing-in-flooded-thai-cave-found-after-nine-days
======
dm319
This is great news, but sadly their lives are still very much at risk. They
are too deep to drill down to, there is a lot of rain to pump out (and the
rain can continue), and they can't swim (even if they could, this is a hard
dive for those that can).

Found this from a Bill Whitehouse:

Bill Whitehouse, vice-chair of the British Cave Rescue Council which is
helping the rescue efforts, played down speculation the boys could be taught
to dive.

Speaking to BBC Radio 4’s Today programme he suggested they could be guided
through the water in “packages”.

Asked how feasible it would be to teach the children to dive, he said: “It is
certainly not easy. The other alternative is that you literally bring them out
in packages. In other words you fit them with diving equipment: a full face
mask, instead of having a gag in your mouth like a lot of divers use; package
them up; put the correct weights on them so that they are neutrally bouyant
and are not going to get stuck again. It has been done before.”

He also explained how the British divers reached the trapped group.

    
    
        They were diving upstream in the system so they were having to swim against the current,
        or pull themselves along the walls. Some of the cave is fairly constricted and other points
        aren’t. I gather the actual diving section was about 1.5km, about half of which was
        completely flooded and about half of which was open.
    
        They estimated that a round trip to where the party was and back again is probably about three hours.
    

Whitehouse was sceptical about the prospects of pumping enough water out of
the cave to allow the boys to walk to safety. He said: “They are trying to do
that with pumping, but pumping a monsoon away is not that easy.”

~~~
draugadrotten
As an experienced cave diver, I agree with Mr Whitehouse that bringing them
out as "packages" should be considered an option. It would be easier than
allowing them to swim by themselves in murky waters with no vision. The diving
training spoken of might be getting the boys to be used to being towed under
water while being packaged up, rather than about teaching them about buoyancy
control like adult divers.

~~~
A_Person
You can't be serious. Taking 13 people, with an absolute maximum of Open Water
level training (if that), back out through hundreds (or thousands?) of meters
of low or zero visibility diving, including (apparently) tight restrictions,
without risking the lives of all concerned? Aint gonna happen - unless the
water level drops to the point where they can just float back out.

~~~
cm2187
What I don't understand is that surely there must be a wide enough passage for
them to have got in in the first place. It may be flooded but if one can walk
into them vertically, surely they should be fairly accessible to a diver
horizontally. Can't they just follow / be attached to a string or something
like that?

~~~
PeterisP
It's a 2.5 km (a bit less than 2 miles) underwater swim. Right now they've
been without food for 10 days and are barely able to stand. At the moment they
wouldn't be able to walk the distance, much less spend many hours (it was
about four hours for the experienced divers, so more for the boys) swimming
underwater in unpredictable currents with no visibility due to silt, so if
they get confused and let go of the string for a moment in those hours then
they die.

As one of the rescuers said, "When it starts raining the flow is so hard you
can barely swim against it." \- and that's a pro diver, imagine how would it
be for a boy who didn't even know how to swim and thus doesn't have the
relevant muscles trained. It's also narrow enough so that only one person can
fit through, so you can't have the divers guide them by hand, only accompany
them behind them.

~~~
sp332
Fortunately the current is in the direction that they need to go to get out.

~~~
PeterisP
Not really - from the plan ([https://www.theguardian.com/world/ng-
interactive/2018/jul/03...](https://www.theguardian.com/world/ng-
interactive/2018/jul/03/thailand-cave-rescue-where-were-the-boys-found-and-
how-can-they-be-rescued)) it seems that it's about 50/50; first they need to
go ~700m against the current and only then ~800m with the current.

------
mehrdadn
How does cave oxygen supply work? Would they not run out of oxygen by the time
they can get out?

Also, one detail that CNN got that I didn't see in this article: it seems the
cave is _one kilometer underground_! [1]

EDIT 1: The CNN article partially answers my first question: _" Rescuers will
also pump air into the cave to improve conditions."_

EDIT 2: Another important bit here [2]: _" It won't be anything like diving
that most people recognize. It will be diving in what is effectively muddy
water, possibly fast flowing, with no sense of direction," Moret said. "You
can't tell what's up, down, sideways."_

[1] [https://www.cnn.com/2018/07/02/asia/thai-cave-rescue-
intl/in...](https://www.cnn.com/2018/07/02/asia/thai-cave-rescue-
intl/index.html)

[2] [https://www.cnn.com/2018/07/03/asia/thai-rescue-next-
phase-i...](https://www.cnn.com/2018/07/03/asia/thai-rescue-next-phase-
intl/index.html)

~~~
jdietrich
_> How does cave oxygen supply work? Would they not run out of oxygen by the
time they can get out?_

Most cave systems are relatively permeable. Even if you can't see a route out,
there are likely to be paths for air movement.

The immediate threat is the accumulation of carbon dioxide rather than a
deficit of oxygen. Fresh air is about 0.04% CO2, but most caves have ambient
CO2 levels of over 1% and some as high as 6%. You'll start feeling quite
unwell above 4%, violently ill above 7% and there's a risk of seizures,
unconsciousness and death above 10%. Normal air is about 21% oxygen, you can
cope perfectly well on about 16% oxygen and survive on as little as 10%
oxygen.

The boys seem alert and in reasonably good spirits, so I'd say that the air in
their section of the cave is fairly good.

~~~
chiasmic
Even if the cave was closed from a gaseous perspective, there is flowing
water. Gases dissolve in water, although not necessarily very quickly. Would
the flow of water allow for CO2 to be removed from the space given a
sufficiently large surface area?

~~~
azernik
Generally caves have elevated CO2 levels not because of human respiration, but
because of outgassing - they're generally eroded out of carbonate minerals,
and so the water flowing in carries CO2 inside at higher concentrations than
the outside world. The smaller the subsystem the human is isolated in, the
faster they perturb that equilibrium toward an even higher CO2 level.

The ESA, of all groups, has a pretty good write-up on this:
[http://blogs.esa.int/caves/2014/11/19/the-science-of-
caves-e...](http://blogs.esa.int/caves/2014/11/19/the-science-of-caves-
environmental-science-co2/) They use cave exploration for astronaut team-
building, process/workflow training, and acculturation.

------
jacquesm
Those divers are super brave. This was done under extremely difficult
circumstances, they risked their lives with a reasonably high chance of at
least one of them not making it back.

~~~
jdietrich
It's skill rather than bravery. Rick Stanton and John Volanthen were the
divers who first made contact with the missing boys. They are both hugely
experienced cave divers and cave rescue divers; as a team, they have broken
multiple records in depth and distance. This was a difficult and complex
diving operation, but that's business as usual for divers of this calibre.

Bravery is fundamentally incompatible with cave diving - if you're taking
risks in such a hostile environment, you won't survive. What keeps you alive
in an underwater cave is training, caution and meticulous attention to detail.

[https://youtu.be/qNX5eo2Ja1g](https://youtu.be/qNX5eo2Ja1g)

~~~
braythwayt
I fundamentally agree with where you are going, but like another responder, I
think that we have different understandings of the word "bravery." Hollywood's
idea of "bravery" is really recklessness. And that is absolutely incompatible
with cave diving, as it is with racing automobiles, fast and light alpine
climbing, and other activities where training and judgment keep you alive.

But as this is not a Hollywood movie, we can use the proper definition:

    
    
      > Courage (also called bravery or valour) is the choice and willingness
      > to confront agony, pain, danger, uncertainty, or intimidation.
      > Physical courage is bravery in the face of physical pain, hardship,
      > death or threat of death, while moral courage is the ability to act
      > rightly in the face of popular opposition, shame, scandal,
      > discouragement, or personal loss.
    

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Courage](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Courage)

Cave divers are absolutely courageous. And brave. They just aren't reckless.
Or foolhardy. To borrow a phrase from mountaineering:

"There are old cave divers. And bold cave divers. But no old and bold cave
divers."

~~~
ljcn
It seems to me that the "Hollywood bravery" you nicely describe really is
bravery - Oxford Dictionaries says the word comes from French _braverie_ or
Italian _braveria_ (boldness), based on Latin _barbarus_ (c.f. barbarous).
Alternatively it may be from _bravo_ (wild, savage).

Courage on the other hand comes from Old French _corage_ , from Latin _cor_
(heart).

I think based on this the divers are courageous, not brave.

~~~
braythwayt
It's true that the word comes from those roots, but the Oxford dictionary you
cite says plainly that the definition of the word as it is used today is:

    
    
      > Courageous behaviour or character.
    

[https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/bravery](https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/bravery)

Just as long as we all agree that cave diving is not about being that
ridiculous Hollywood stereotype dude who deliberately breaks all the rules for
no damn reason and it works out because he broke all the rules for no damn
reason.

~~~
ljcn
I was agreeing with you. You wrote yourself that modern usage is synonymous,
so I thought it would be interesting to look at the etymology too.

For the record the full OED favours the latter root for bravery ( _bravo_ <
Old Italian _braido, brado_ (wild, savage)). Strange they don't say the same
thing.

------
saagarjha
I'm pleasantly surprised to see that they've been able to survive this long
without access to food and possibly clean water. I can't imagine what it would
feel like to be stuck in a cave for nine days and then suddenly see two divers
show up as part of the rescue effort!

~~~
isostatic
> rescuers have said they may have to wait several weeks for the water to
> subside before they can be taken out.

Ouch

> Trying to take non-divers through a cave is one of the most dangerous
> situations possible, even if the dives are relatively easy. That also begets
> the question: if the dives are difficult then supply will be difficult, but
> the risk of trying to dive them out is also exponentially greater

~~~
cr1895
>have to wait several weeks

A BBC article said it could be months, much less weeks. It's the beginning of
the rainy season.

[https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-44692813](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-
asia-44692813)

~~~
jaggederest
It's interesting, I wonder what the pros and cons are for drilling to retrieve
them or send supplies. In the mine collapse situations that I'm aware of,
there was already infrastructure on hand for heavy equipment and drilling.

I have to imagine that the dangers of cave diving are multiplicative - you
don't get enough skill-based improvement from any given trip into/out to make
repeated trips a safe option.

~~~
hvidgaard
I'm sure I don't understand the scale of this. I would however think that you
can bring huge industrial pumps and do some plumbing to a suitable place to
dump the water and turn them on. Holland once send 7 million ton a day of
pumping capacity to England to help them out. Could that not make a serious
impact on the water levels in the cave?

~~~
grkvlt
Also, the pumps have to be at the lowest point, _pushing_ the water up - a
siphon has a maximum height that a vacuum can draw water up of around 10m.[0]
You can't just stick the pump at the entrance and then shove a pipe hundreds
of meters down the cave system, you need to take the pump down there and run
the hose back to the outside.

0\.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siphon](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siphon)

~~~
hvidgaard
I did not think of that.

------
avar
There's an interesting parallel here to the incident in 2013[1] where a
Nigerian ship's cook survived for 60 hours in an air bubble 30 meters under
the surface in a sunken capsized tugboat.

That was also a case where someone with no prior experience as a diver had to
be extracted from a situation otherwise requiring some fairly advanced dive
training. From the article:

> The rescuing divers fitted Okene with a diving helmet so he could breathe
> while being transferred into a closed diving bell and returned to the
> surface for decompression from saturation. Okene lost consciousness during
> the transfer.

According to the BBC[2] they'll probably end up doing something similar to
extract those kids. They'd need to drag them over a long distance (probably
one at a time) as "dead weight", but this method wouldn't require them to
learn any diving skills.

> The Thai authorities have appealed for donations of full-face scuba diving
> masks small enough to fit the boys in order to reduce the risk of their
> breathing apparatus coming loose as they travel through flooded passageways.

1\.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aquanaut#Accidental_aquanaut](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aquanaut#Accidental_aquanaut)

2\. [https://www.bbc.com/news/world-
asia-44692813](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-44692813)

~~~
wallflower
The actual video shot by the rescuing divers shows how calm and control the
leader of the expedition acts after they encounter Harrison alive. Starts
around 5:50

[https://www.liveleak.com/view?i=51e_1385934620](https://www.liveleak.com/view?i=51e_1385934620)

------
belorn
Earlier reports was that the water in the cave is like cold coffee and it is
easily one of the worst environment to try get non-divers through several km
of cave diving. The technical details will be interesting to see once they
hopefully solve the problem of getting everyone out.

~~~
Angostura
Sounds like they aren't going to try and solve that problem. It's going to be
wait for several months or possibly learn rudimentary diving skills

[https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-
asia-44692813](https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-44692813)

------
cimmanom
Assuming the divers will have to shuttle supplies to the trapped team: is
there a way to make repeated dives less risky, such as stringing a guide line
that divers can follow?

~~~
jdietrich
Guide lines are absolutely essential in cave diving. At almost any point in a
cave dive, there's a risk of disturbing silt and losing visibility. Cave
divers have developed a sophisticated set of tools and techniques for
navigating in conditions of low or zero visibility.

Many underwater cave entrances are marked with a stark warning sign bearing an
image of the grim reaper, imploring the diver to "prevent your death - go no
farther". Underwater caves can be enticing to divers, but entering one without
the correct training and equipment is extraordinarily dangerous. Hundreds of
scuba divers have swum into an inviting-looking cave with crystal clear water,
then turned around to see a wall of darkness from the silt they have kicked
up; very few have lived to tell the tale.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Distance_line](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Distance_line)

[http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp-
content/up...](http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp-
content/uploads/sites/21/2016/10/grim-reaper.jpg)

[https://youtu.be/PVmqK5YZuxM](https://youtu.be/PVmqK5YZuxM)

~~~
scarejunba
Top quality video. Thanks for sharing, man.

------
fgGAMI
Could they use a long rope as a track/guide with the "packages" tethered to
it?

How realistic would it be to drill a more convenient entrance from above?

------
nikkinicole
but how did they survive the initial 10 days? That's a lot of kids to care
for. Why were they in there in the first place if it had a warning sign?

~~~
wiennat
They had some snacks with them when they went into the cave.

Basically, there is a warning sign for cave flooding during July and October.
Monsoon season is not likely to start at the end of June so they might thought
it is still be fine to go into the cave.

------
elil17
I’m curious about why they aren’t using robotics to driver food - seems like
it would be safer than having human divers go back and forth

~~~
robotresearcher
You can't drag 1km of tough power and control cable behind a little robot, and
autonomous robots aren't up to the job yet.

~~~
willyt
This thing has a 2km long fibre optic tether and is battery powered. Been in
use since 2001.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seafox_drone](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seafox_drone)

~~~
robotresearcher
Cool. But that vehicle is open underwater only. These caves are a mixture of
swimming, walking and climbing. Lots of power required, and very tough to
teleoperate.

------
SagelyGuru
"None of them can swim"

Great idea to take them down into a flooded cave in rainy season. Even though
now found, they will still be very lucky to get out alive. How? I think it is
the case of learn to swim and dive right down there or die.

Whatever was their coach thinking?

~~~
fabricexpert
Personally I think the coach should be commended for keeping all those boys
safe and alive in such conditions. He couldn't have known the cave was going
to flood, the signs say don't go in in between July and September - they
entered in June. Without a strong leader this probably would have been a very
different outcome already and they'd be dealing with retrieving corpses.

I actually find comments like yours really grating. Blaming people for
situations largely beyond their control is not productive or helpful,
especially when ended with inflammatory questioning designed to provoke.

~~~
geomark
Actually, it was irresponsible to take them on a cave tour this time of year
because the rains often start in June, regardless of when the official start
of rainy season is called. It's been like that as long as I've lived here, and
there have been quite a few cases of cave tourists getting trapped during
rainy season. So he did a good job of taking care of them once they were in
trouble, but he should have not taken them in there in the first place.

~~~
Filligree
If the rains often start in June, why do the signs say July?

There may be plenty of blame to go around, but I don't think blaming an
inexperienced caver is very useful.

~~~
geomark
He lives in Thailand so he knows it often rains in June. He entered the cave
only one week before the official start of rainy season. He took a rather
large group of kids, not adults who could assess the risk themselves and
decide whether or not to take the risk. I would say that adds up to being very
irresponsible.

