
Japan has a worrying number of virgins, government finds - vikasr111
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/japan-has-a-worrying-number-of-virgins-government-finds-a7312961.html
======
abstractbeliefs
Before we get into a huge discussion about virginity, it's worth noting that
the government isn't actually worried about it. They're worried about
fertility rates.

Virgins sell more papers though, so lets get that clickbait going.

~~~
f_allwein
Yes, but virginity is an interesting part of the issue:

> Around 42 percent of men and 44.2 percent of women admitted that they were
> virgins

this seems quite high, although I haven't compared it to data from other
countries. Are Japanese people having less sex? And if so, why?

~~~
NumberCruncher
I am not a Japan-expert but I remember seeing a documentary about young Japan
couples renting sex-hotel rooms on hourly basis, because they have no other
place to get intimate. It's quite hard to loose your virginity and get
pregnant when your family is watching...

~~~
6t6t6t6
You are talking about love hotels. They are extremely common in Japan and they
are really not a big deal. Almost all of them are perfectly clean and they are
cheap as well (for Japanese standards); for less than the equivalent of $40
you can get a room.

People who are dating use them a lot. Because flats are usually quite small,
it is sometimes more convenient to spend the night in a love hotel than going
home. Married couples use love hotels from time to time in order to be able to
make sex without having to worry about the noise, or about a kid interrupting.

The most important for Japanese society is convenience! ;)

------
unsignedint
Having relationship in Japan can be tough when a lot of people are under non-
permanent employment which they would get paid less and is unstable. Even if
one's lucky enough to have a stable job, there is a problem of practically
mandatory overtime (which, incidentally, can be unpaid.)

Though, gap between ideal and reality is certainly a one of issues out there,
but financial and time issues have a lot of impact to this problem.

~~~
fjejfjrjdjc
This is the real issue, and it's where we're headed as well in the west.
Unfortunately, we'll probably suffer through this completely avoidable problem
because politicians are too beholden to business interests.

~~~
mjevans
With the two recent recession dips and the long slog of recovery that doesn't
seem to have any real vigor, I think the west might already be on this
trajectory instead of merely headed there.

~~~
clydethefrog
Yes, see The strange case of the missing baby [2016]

[http://www.economist.com/news/international/21697817-financi...](http://www.economist.com/news/international/21697817-financial-
crisis-hit-birth-rates-fell-rich-countries-expected)

------
Animats
Japan has a fertility rate of 1.41. Replacement rate is around 2.1 to maintain
the population. Here's the world table.[1] Most of the developed world is
below replacement rate. Most of Africa is above 4. India is at 2.51; China is
at 1.55. Singapore is at the bottom at 0.8.

It's amazing to see that much variation between countries.

Maybe Japan shouldn't have cracked down on love hotels.

[1]
[http://www.indexmundi.com/g/r.aspx?v=31](http://www.indexmundi.com/g/r.aspx?v=31)

~~~
hasenj
If I understand correctly, love hotels are mostly used for, let's just say
"recreational" activities by singles.

The adult industry doesn't help increase the birth rate; it helps plummet it.

------
mariodiana
> There was one clearly positive indicator in the survey: For the first time,
> the proportion of women returning to work after having their first child in
> Japan's once notoriously patriarchal society exceeded 50 percent.

In all seriousness, if the concern is low birthrates, how is the above a
"clearly positive indicator"?

~~~
unsignedint
Because women can be discouraged of having a children in fear of not being
return to work afterward.

Implementations of maternity leaves are not very high in Japan -- this is
coming from the work that histrically, they were expected to leave the work
force when women are married.

~~~
hasenj
Who is going to take care of the baby?

Also, returning to work probably means no intention of having another baby any
time soon.

~~~
mcphage
If only there was an industry of trained professionals whose only job was
taking care of children...

~~~
unsignedint
There is a serious shortage there, too. And even if working parents do have
access to it, it won't go beyond usual hours (e.g. like 6PM) and it won't help
them much if they are expected a lot longer than that.

------
scythe
What is concerning is this:

>Most people surveyed said they want to get married at some point.

This isn't delineated by gender, so I interpret it as meaning that Japanese
men and women both want to get married -- but they aren't enough for each
other.

>A booming industry surrounds Japan's growing condition of loneliness, a
phenomenon at once quite particular to the Japanese, yet also a glimpse into a
future where many people live atomized lives mediated exclusively through
personal technology.

That modern philosophy tends to devalue (or rather not value) human
relationships is the one thing I'm tempted to blame this on:

[https://philosophyinseconds.files.wordpress.com/2016/01/the-...](https://philosophyinseconds.files.wordpress.com/2016/01/the-
schizophrenia-of-modern-ethical-theories.pdf)

But that is probably personal bias creeping up. Working hours are the popular
explanation, but there is an incongruity: _most_ Japanese claim to want to
have relationships, so if they thought working hours were the problem then why
haven't they complained? And how could they fail to notice something so
obvious? If housing prices are the problem, how does this occur when Japan's
population has been in decline for forty years?

I've heard of this phenomenon (and similar ones in Western Europe) and I pick
up and discard economic explanations like bottles of some alcoholic beverage.
But the alarm in the back of my head says that _our_ culture is the problem,
and it just happens to be popular in Japan. If that's the case, things will
get worse, not better.

~~~
clydethefrog
Is it wrong for me to see that devaluation of human relationship in your
linked thesis as Marx's theory of alienation without the capitalist critique?

>The theoretic basis of alienation, within the capitalist mode of production,
is that the worker invariably loses the ability to determine life and destiny,
when deprived of the right to think (conceive) of themselves as the director
of their own actions; to determine the character of said actions; to define
relationships with other people.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marx%27s_theory_of_alienation](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marx%27s_theory_of_alienation)

------
crazy_ant
Disclosure: I've been living in Japan for half a decade now.

There are a number of interplaying and compounding factors that are
responsible for creating this situation. I will list a few in no particular
order.

\- The hours are absolutely insane. My partner rarely leaves her office before
10pm, and by the time she does, she is completely exhausted and unable to do
anything other than hit the sack. This type of situation is _extremely_
prevalent and generally affects both men and women. It is no wonder that young
people have no time to socialize, go out and meet potential partners when they
spend 90% of their waking hours working or otherwise subordinating to this
insane work cult.

\- Japan is a country of predefined roles and expectations, and at different
ages people are fully expected to meet certain benchmarks and seamlessly
transition into new roles. One such role is that of a provider, and men are
expected to be able to become full-time breadwinners by the time they hit 30.
With the economy being what it is and the traditional Japanese notion of
lifetime employment being a thing of the past, a lot of men aren't able to
live up to these expectations and simply drop out of the dating pool. Some of
it is involuntary, since Japanese women tend to maintain very high
expectations as to what a man needs to be able to provide.

\- Sex is generally highly available and there are all kinds of parlors,
services, salons, middlemen and clubs catering to both men and women. It's
cheap, legal and safe, thereby creating a disincentive for people to attempt
and engage in the old fashioned mating process. On top of that - and this is
going to sound completely nuts to those who aren't familiar with the country -
there are full-time gigolos, both foreign and domestic, whose only life goal
seems to be getting as many notches as possible. They approach women on the
street, in bookstores, train stations, malls, you name it. I know a few of
these characters and many of them have notches in the 3 figure range and
juggle up to 7 women at a time. It's all they ever do, and I suspect that they
tie up a huge number of women at any given point in time. I can't say I've
noticed the same phenomenon in any other country.

\- The local culture isn't exactly touchy-feely and even when people date,
it's something they do because it's what young people are supposed and
expected to do, not because they like their partner or dating in particular.
Just a curiosity I've noticed with many couples.

Obviously, the situation is very complex and cannot be explained with a simple
narrative, but I hope this helps clarify things a little.

------
hasenj
IMO a decent solution to the low-birth-rate problem is not to try to hook up
all the singles together, but rather encourage existing couples to have more
children.

Make it socially acceptable and even desirable to have more children. Give
incentives to working men who have more children.

~~~
james-skemp
This seems wrong to me. This seems to go against the promotion of diversity,
for the species and in thought.

If society is moving toward the idea that children aren't a 'benefit,' then
having people who are 'willing' to have children have more just postpones the
issue, instead of fixing the root cause.

~~~
syrrim
Presumably, those who have children would pass their genes onto those
children, and raise their children similar to how they were raised. Therefore,
those children would be more likely to have children than the general
population.

------
mangecoeur
Perhaps the darker side that could be missed is that despite their demographic
problem, Japan continues to refuse to let in more young foreigners in to help
balance the demographics.

~~~
M_Grey
Japan isn't going to change in that regard anytime soon. They'd definitely
rather have less Japanese people, and have them still be what they consider
"Japanese" enough. Japan has many wonderful aspects to it, but the racism and
nationalism are not part of them.

~~~
feklar
I remember reading an article about AirBnB breaking into Japan, where the
local resistance wasn't the usual complaints of limiting the monthly rental
supply therefore jacking up rental rates, but that AirBnB 'encouraged more
foreigners to come here'. To get rid of foreigners, Japan puts up so many
blocks and delays to permanent residency they hope you get the message and
choose to leave.

~~~
M_Grey
They're not a culture that relishes saying "no" outright either, so what
you're talking about can get intensely aggressive by way of a substitute for
"no". For example, if someone in Japan tells you that something is, "Very
difficult", they means it's about as likely as spontaneous, unpowered, human
flight.

------
zxcvvcxz
Low birthrates, low marriage rates, sure that's a problem for a nation.

But I don't think virginity need be a problem. If one wants to wait until they
meet their right partner why not? Data shows this leads to stronger bonds
(though the causation is unknown and may be something like religion).

It's not like more premarital sex even correlates to higher birth rates. If
fact for first world countries the correlation has been the inverse since the
introduction of the pill in the 1960s.

I suspect child rearing is one of those things that mentally many consider to
be a nuisance, but once it happens and there's a kid our emotions take
significant hold and it becomes all important.

~~~
sandworm101
I suspect it isn't about the kids. Or even sex. I suspect it is about old
people. The period of one's life during which one must take care of elderly
parents and grandparents is growing. Many people of marrying age are in
families with several elderly people to care for. They aren't free to move out
and start their own households. If I am correct, the answer isn't more child
care but more government-backed elder care.

~~~
zhemao
> They aren't free to move out and start their own households

Why is that a problem? You don't need to live separately from your parents or
grandparents in order to get married. Multi-generational households were the
norm until very recently. Also, given that the elderly are much healthier now
than in the past, they may not need as much care.

~~~
CyberDildonics
If you are already a virgin, don't you think it might be a difficult road to
get to being a parent when your elderly parents are living with you in a tiny
cramped house?

~~~
ptaipale
On the other hand, when the Japanese had more children, they also took care of
elderly parents and maybe had even less space and privacy in their dwellings.

------
OSButler
It would be interesting to hear the point of view from a Japanese on those
numbers. How is the dating scene? Are those numbers surprising or matching
with your own experiences?

~~~
feklar
According to 4/2chan posters from Japan it's all about money. Men are expected
to have a career by age 30something and be set for a family, if they don't
it's seen as shameful so they don't try to date. Too many low paying jobs,
with fleeting job security, and no support for single women to raise a family.

------
nsaslideface
Why is population decline from the current levels inherently bad again?

~~~
coldtea
Because it kills the economy and forward momentum of a society, puts a huge
burden on public health and other services, creates a elderly society with
less "new blood" innovation in ideas and politics that stifles the (fewer)
young people, and beyond some point it's not even reversible without the
country falling many places in GDP and standards of living.

------
d--b
Is that a coincidence that this got upvoted just days after this came up?
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12504271](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12504271)

------
peterkelly
Those pixelated genitals are an unfortunate physical trait, and would
certainly be a turn-off for me in any potential relationship

~~~
wott
You obviously didn't grow up with a 1200 bit/s modem.

~~~
skocznymroczny
obligatory xkcd: [https://xkcd.com/598/](https://xkcd.com/598/)

------
gjolund
As opposed to Europe's solution, where they allow unrestricted immigration
from volatile areas?

~~~
M_Grey
"Allow"

Your alternative is to shoot them at the border, or film them while they drown
at sea... and even that wouldn't work as well as you might hope. Just wait and
see what the next few decades hold, it's going to make this recent wave of
migration seem absolutely delightful by comparison.

We've made the implicit choice to live our lives in such a way that the AGW is
going to make the places like Northern Africa utterly unlivable, and then
we'll blame people for fleeing from it.

It's the typical tragicomedy of a species that has a collective memory of
about 20 seconds.

~~~
Melchizedek
The reason they are even at the border is that they are enticed by welfare in
countries like Germany and Sweden. There are relatively rich nations with
nobody at the border, like Saudi Arabia.

To the degree Africa is unlivable it's because of Africans and their high
birthrate (but most of it is not unlivable at all, it's just that Europe is
richer and you get free everything).

Either the EU closes its borders or immigration will be the end of Europe.
Don't pretend you don't understand this.

~~~
M_Grey
It's the end of Europe, brace yourselves. It's not going to help that many
there share similar (wrong) beliefs about why Northern Africa is going to
hell, so you'll waste time on draconian measures that won't help in the
slightest.

I can understand the desire to feel like you have something in your control
though, when the reality is so very different.

~~~
Melchizedek
Controlling the border is no problem at all. It's only a matter of will - just
look at Israel.

~~~
M_Grey
So it only takes massive support from a superpower, being a tiny nation,
building an actual wall and manning it, and spending an absolute fortune on
defending it? [http://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/business/israel-shells-
ou...](http://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/business/israel-shells-out-almost-a-
fifth-of-national-budget-on-defense-figures-show.premium-1.503527)

This just in... Europe is quite a bit larger than Israel, and composed of
different sovereign nations.

------
ausjke
immigration will solve all these issues for now? Japan is not alone. In the
future I think the babies can be born outside of the womb at some centers in
volume per nation/race's needs.

~~~
xiaoma
Japan is remarkably uninterested in becoming an immigrant country. Guests are
treated with warm, well-mannered hospitality but long-term immigrants are
neither desired nor able to assimilate. How many other countries are there
with a sizable population of _3rd generation foreigners_?

Immigration might be a harder sell than dwindling down and disappearing
altogether as a nation/culture/race/whatever else is bundled in with being
"Japanese".

~~~
nononosisisi
It is definitely their choice to remain homogeneous. One way or another that
choice will have strong consequences be they good or bad.

------
eternalban
I had a conversation with a Japanese American artist a couple of years ago on
the general topic of the post-WWII infantilization of Japanese culture.

I believe we reached a sort of mild agreement that Japan's collective
unconscious is still trying to process the shock of being on the receiving end
of a nuclear attack.

~~~
mariodiana
Please, can you give some details about this "infantilization"? I can't be the
only one who can't think of anything other than Hello Kitty.

~~~
reflexive
The original "Gojira" (Godzilla) in 1954 has been regarded as an expression of
the impotence and powerlessness felt by many Japanese after being forced to
surrender to the Allies in WW2, and the subsequent American occupation.

[http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/film/10788996/Godzilla-
wh...](http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/film/10788996/Godzilla-why-the-
Japanese-original-is-no-joke.html)

~~~
honkhonkpants
Interesting perspective. Defeat was the consequence of having started the war
in the first place. Nobody in America was sitting around in 1941 thinking up
ways to vaporize Japanese people. As they say on the Internet: play stupid
games, win stupid prizes.

~~~
krapp
It wouldn't surprise me if some Japanese viewed the atomic bombings as an
unwarranted act of unprovoked aggression - and they may not be entirely
unjustified if they do.

From their point of view, it probably seemed as if the US had already won and
just decided to spike the football.

~~~
honkhonkpants
Yeah, unprovoked? That belies a lack of historical perspective.

Japan killed tens of millions of Chinese and intended to occupy the entire
western Pacific, killing or enslaving all the people who lived there. The
entire nation, all of its labor and industry, was bent toward this goal. It
was a nation of profound evil.

~~~
krapp
>It was a nation of profound evil.

That's one perspective. Another is that Japan was merely doing what it felt
was necessary to protect itself from interference by aggressive Western
Imperial powers, and weren't necessarily more "evil" than any other empire at
the time. A third is that the country that dropped two atomic bombs on
civilian cities and firebombed Tokyo to the ground was no less evil than the
empire they were fighting.

I don't necessarily agree or disagree with this, but "evil" seems more often
than not to be matter of cultural relativism and propaganda. It wasn't long
after World War 2 that the US was begging Japan for help in their other Asian
conflicts and burning whole villages to the ground in the name of fighting the
"profound evil" of communism.

~~~
RandomOpinion
It boggles the mind to hear 10+ million civilian deaths and wartime atrocities
in Asia described as being "merely one perspective".

One can only assume that this individual believes Germany's concentration
camps and what occurred therein were just "cultural relativism" and
"propaganda" too and that Germany was "doing what it felt was necessary to
protect itself".

~~~
krapp
>One can only assume that this individual believes Germany's concentration
camps and what occurred therein were just "cultural relativism" and
"propaganda" too and that Germany was "doing what it felt was necessary to
protect itself".

One can only assume this individual didn't bother to read all the words I
wrote before deciding they knew what I believe.

I specifically said I didn't subscribe to the views I enumerated, but those
views certainly do exist. Personally, I think Imperial Japan was incredibly
evil. I also think the atomic bombings were evil. Hell, many Japanese feel the
atomic bombings were justified - and Japanese legislators contributed to the
very peace constitution that "emasculated" them, because they felt
(justifiably) betrayed by the Emperor's ambitions.

But since we're discussing the way Japan may view the atomic bombings and how
that event affected Japan's culture, reducing that culture to the thought-
terminating cliche of "profound evil" adds nothing to the discussion.

------
PaulHoule
So that's why every chick in a Japanese porno flick is a virgin.

