
Women would lose $4.6B in earned tips if ‘tip stealing’ rule is finalized - smacktoward
http://www.epi.org/publication/women-would-lose-4-6-billion-in-earned-tips-if-the-administrations-tip-stealing-rule-is-finalized-overall-tipped-workers-would-lose-5-8-billion/
======
temp-dude-87844
There have been a number of studies that found that attractive people,
especially attractive women, receive bigger tips from customers than other
groups [1][2] in some contexts. The implications of this are perhaps just as
interesting as women being the primary group disadvantaged by this proposed
policy simply due to there being a higher proportion of women than men in tip-
receiving jobs.

One could argue that if this proposal were to go through, people in tipped
industries would receive an allocation of wages that's less tied to subjective
consumer tastes about inherent physical attributes that don't directly
contribute to the quality of service received. Though I lack polling data on
this, I'm hypothesizing most people would perceive that as more fair.

[1]
[http://scholarship.sha.cornell.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?artic...](http://scholarship.sha.cornell.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1159&context=articles)
[2]
[http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0167487015...](http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S016748701500046X)

~~~
gnicholas
If this is true, then it could also lead to a reshuffling of who becomes a
tipped worker. People who are attractive are currently incentivized to become
tipped workers because they are relatively well-compensated in a tipped job.
If tips were to go away (or be pooled), this incentive would become much
weaker. Perhaps attractive people would shift from tipped jobs into other
jobs, where their attractiveness (be it physical or personality-based) are
still effectively compensated. Pharmaceutical sales comes to mind.

------
Johnny555
Sounds like a good reason to get rid of tipping entirely and pay reasonable
wages to all employees.

------
MollyR
I hate tipping culture. When I was young and a waitress in college, I noticed
horrible racism from waiters who treated minorities badly due to tipping
stereotypes.

Please just get rid of it for living wages.

~~~
ex3ndr
Have you been in countries without tipping culture? Almost all of them have
much worse service quality.

~~~
autarch
I've been to four places without tipping in restaurants, Italy, Hong Kong,
Taiwan, and Japan. I would say all of them had better service than here in the
US. In particular, the East Asian countries I visited all have _excellent_
service without tips.

I suspect quality of service has a lot more to do with cultural factors
unrelated to tipping.

~~~
Para2016
Italy? I don't believe your experience was universal.

~~~
thecompilr
I experienced nothing but exceptional service in Italy.

~~~
toyg
As an Italian, I'm happy that at least _somebody_ did get great service :)

To be fair, it really varies so much between regions and even towns.
Restaurants are usually ok, but regular shops in big cities... eh.

~~~
autarch
I was just referring to my restaurant experiences, which ranged from fine to
excellent.

------
jtchang
While we are on the subject of tipping does anyone find it slightly annoying
that every point of sale system now is configured to ask for an additional
tip? Clover, Revel, Square, etc.

Some have different levels of UX where you are basically prompted to give 15%,
20%, 25%. I wonder where the tip actually goes in this case?

~~~
niftich
"Tip creep" or "guilt tipping" is simply milking [1][2][3] the social
conventions around tipping while you're standing in front of the would-be
beneficiary, card in hand.

Most of the tip goes to the seller, of course. But most payment processors
deduct their fees from the total amount after taxes and tips, like Square does
[4], so if the final transaction amounts are higher, as they are in this case,
they make more money too.

[1] [https://qz.com/730315/squares-design-guilts-us-into-
tipping-...](https://qz.com/730315/squares-design-guilts-us-into-tipping-
basically-everyone/) [2]
[https://www.nytimes.com/2015/02/01/business/dollar3-tip-
on-a...](https://www.nytimes.com/2015/02/01/business/dollar3-tip-on-a-
dollar4-cup-of-coffee-gratuities-grow-automatically.html?_r=0) [3]
[https://www.fastcodesign.com/3022182/how-square-registers-
ui...](https://www.fastcodesign.com/3022182/how-square-registers-ui-guilts-
you-into-leaving-tips) [4] [https://squareup.com/help/us/en/article/5068-what-
are-square...](https://squareup.com/help/us/en/article/5068-what-are-square-s-
fees)

------
neaanopri
Why would anybody tip if the tip doesn't go to the server? That's the only
reason that I tip.

~~~
s73ver_
I doubt that's going to be publicized.

~~~
eqtn
It should be put in bold letters in restaurants that "Tipping is optional". Or
get rid of tipping fully and pay minimum wage.

~~~
tzs
Won't most people still assume that if they do supply the optional tip it will
go to their waiter (with perhaps some also going to the busboy and/or cook)?

There needs to be a sign that explains how tips are actually distributed.

------
ryankupyn
I'm struck by how significantly the effect varies between states - according
to table 2, 25% of the transfers (around $1.55 billion) are accounted for by
Connecticut and Delaware alone (which collectively are around 2% of the US
population).

Does anyone know why the effect is so strong in these states? In the notes the
authors say that Delaware is one of the states with unusually strong
protections - so I'd expect transfers would actually be unusually low in that
case!

------
r00fus
So how, as a customer, could I actively tip my wait staff and not the
establishment?

Will this lead to the abolishment of tipping in general?

~~~
dabbledash
God, I hope it does.

Tipping is just a way for restaurant owners to exclude the cost of labor from
their listed prices.

~~~
lev99
Counter point -- Tipping is a way to insure excellent service on return visits
to service oriented establishments.

~~~
sparkie
As a counter counter point, there are places which don't take tips, and they
offer some of the best customer service in the world.

Japan is a good example. In the food service industry, establishments will
usually put their own service charge which they think is reasonable onto the
bill (usually a small amount). They don't expect (many will refuse to take)
further tips because they price the cost to serve into it.

~~~
lev99
My example is clearly assuming the customer is in the United States. I don't
think we can copy a few things about Japan's food service industry and expect
to have a similar dining experience here. Culture is too complex for that to
work.

Japan's entire service industry always leaves me pleased.

------
benaadams
> as long as they pay those workers at least the minimum wage

Do US employeers not have to pay workers the minimum wage?

~~~
blakesterz
Tipped employees make less: "According to a common labor law provision
referred to as a “tip credit”, the employee must earn at least the state’s
minimum wage when tips and wages are combined or the employer is required to
increase the wage to fulfill that threshold."

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tipped_wage_in_the_United_Stat...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tipped_wage_in_the_United_States)

~~~
paulcole
This is not true for every state. Oregon, among others, pays minimum wage to
servers and other tipped employees.

------
whack
If an employer is really intent on stealing their employees' tips, they could
just

1\. Increase their prices by 15-20% across the board

2\. Instruct their waiters to tell all customers that tipping is not required,
nor accepted

3\. Pay the waiters only 0-10% of the bill, and keep the rest for themselves

If we're relying on leaky laws like these in order to protect the under-
privileged, we really need to reconsider our social safety net.

------
olliej
So the articles says that they can take tips if they pay the minimum wage --
given the minimum wage for jobs that traditionally have a significant tip
component is typically much lower than the "minimum wage" (because it's made
up in tips, right?), does this mean that they're referring to the non-tip
minimum wage?

------
redblacktree
I would be fine with this if they require businesses who are taking tips to
advertise that fact. Then I can happily not tip. Why would I voluntarily pay
extra for my meal if it isn't going to the server?

------
daxorid
And men would lose $1.2B. Why the gendered title? Why not "Waiters would lose
$5.8B in earned tips"?

~~~
Johnny555
To highlight who the biggest losers are -- the subset of workers that already
face wage discrimination would face 80% of the tip loss.

~~~
umanwizard
I would be shocked if female waiters in the US are paid less than male ones.
Got a source?

~~~
Johnny555
I was mainly referring to general wage discrimination across all industries,
but here's a few references for the restaurant industry from 10 seconds of
googling:

[http://rocunited.org/publications/tipped-over-the-edge-
gende...](http://rocunited.org/publications/tipped-over-the-edge-gender-
inequity-in-the-restaurant-industry/)

 _– The industry follows a conscious business model of confining women to the
lower-paid positions within restaurants. Women are hired for only 19 percent
of chef positions, for example, even though traditionally most women are more
likely to do a majority of the cooking at home._

 _\- In addition, women are confined to the lower-paying segments of the
industry such as quick-serve and family style rather than the highest-paying
fine dining segment. So even within the same job classification of server,
full-time, year-round female servers are paid just 68 percent of what male
servers are paid ($17,000 vs. $25,000 annually)._

[http://fortune.com/2015/10/23/wage-gap-
restaurants/](http://fortune.com/2015/10/23/wage-gap-restaurants/)

 _\- Women and workers of color are often pushed into the lowest-paying jobs
in the food service industry, according to a report from the Restaurant
Opportunities Center United, a labor advocacy group._

 _\- Women are pushed toward lower-paying jobs at more casual restaurants, and
people of color are channeled toward even lower-paying jobs such as bussing
and kitchen positions._

~~~
briandear
> women are hired for only 19 percent of chef positions, for example, even
> though traditionally most women are more likely to do a majority of the
> cooking at home.

This is a ridiculous statement. Cooking at home has zero to do with going to
culinary school and becoming a chef. If you visit most restaurant kitchens --
the line cooks and dishwashers are almost always men (or at least 80%+ of
them,) based on my experience in working in probably 10 different restaurants
in my life.

Working as a line cook is often part of the career progression of becoming a
chef. At the finer restuarants, the line cooks are often "staging" while
they're in culinary school. If anyone has ever worked as a line cook in a real
restaurant, one would know that it's pretty brutal work -- lots of dirty
cleaning, standing in front of hell-fire ovens and grills for entire shifts --
at a pretty pitiful level of pay. Certainly, women do it, but even remotely
comparing that career with making lasagna in a home kitchen is like suggesting
that I should be a race car driver simply because I drive a car every day or
that I should be a stand up comedian just because I can make my kids laugh.

> Women and workers of color are often pushed into the lowest-paying jobs in
> the food service industry, according to a report from the Restaurant
> Opportunities Center United, a labor advocacy group.

At the beginning of the comment, we just were discussing how only 19% of chefs
are women, but then we complain that women are pushed into the "lowest-paying
jobs" \-- such as the kitchen. The kitchen is where you start if you want to
be a chef. And, most kitchens I've ever worked in had few women. Most of the
women were in the front of the house making real money, while those of us in
the back were cutting and burning ourselves for $10 per hour with the goal of
moving up in the kitchen brigade at some point. The dishwashers are almost
always men. I don't think I've ever seen a female dishwasher at any fine
dining restaurant I've ever worked at. Obviously there are women dishwashers,
but there are a heck of a lot more front-of-the-house women than there are in
the back of the house. I've seen very few female busboys. I can't remember a
single one. I've seen many men barbacks -- but can't remember seeing a single
female barback. In fact, the pretty women are typically in the highest paying
position in the resturant (aside from the general manager) -- bartenders. I've
been denied many jobs as a bartender because the bar "only hired women
bartenders." Although I had no problems getting a job as a doorman or a
barback.

> ..people of color are channeled toward even lower-paying jobs such as
> bussing and kitchen positions.

Chefs didn't start in the kitchen as chefs. Managers typically didn't start as
managers. Almost universally chefs started by working on the line. Managers
often started as waitstaff or even busboys. Whoever is providing this "data"
seems like they've never actually worked in a restaurant, nor experienced how
the business works and how people move up in the industry. Also, a non-trivial
number of back-of-the-house workers are illegal aliens who are both "of color"
and willing to work for far lower wages.

It isn't that people "of color" are being sent to the kitchen as punishment --
but often those with limited English proficiency aren't generally going to be
front-of-the-house. In my anecdotal experience working in a variety of
restaurants in Houston, black people and white/Hispanic women were typically
working as waitstaff -- and making far more money than the white/Hispanic
males working in the kitchen. Bartenders trended female, general managers
trended white male, kitchen managers were black, white/Hispanic and male. Sous
chefs were commonly white male or female. Pasty chefs were generally white or
black female, dishwashers were older hispanic men, busboys and barbacks were
young Hispanic men. Line cooks were white or Hispanic men. Executive Chefs --
typically white or black males. Completely anecdotal for sure -- but, at least
in Houston, restaurant racism was something I don't think I ever saw; and I
worked in a lot of places, especially in the high end. I was a manager of a
few places, mostly at the bar, so I saw the nightly tip declarations -- anyone
making the claim that women make less in tips than men or that certain races
make lower tips than others -- I would have to doubt their experience in the
business. Women often made more. People of color made just as much as anyone
else.

Here's an article from a Houston magazine about black chefs in Houston:
[http://www.outsmartmagazine.com/2017/02/in-praise-of-
color-i...](http://www.outsmartmagazine.com/2017/02/in-praise-of-color-in-
cuisine-celebrating-black-chefs-in-houston/)

Key quote: "I see many African Americans [chefs] in good restaurant kitchens
in Houston—too many, in fact to cover in this article.."

One of the most exclusive restaurants in Houston, Tony's has a female chef.
The 2017 Houston James Beard semi-finalists were an extremely diverse group:
[https://www.visithoustontexas.com/culinary-tours/culinary-
bl...](https://www.visithoustontexas.com/culinary-tours/culinary-
blog/post/10-houston-chefs-restaurants-named-among-the-2017-james-beard-
awards-semifinalists/)

There might have been only 2 white males among all those nominees.

~~~
Johnny555
>> women are hired for only 19 percent of chef positions, for example, even
though traditionally most women are more likely to do a majority of the
cooking at home.

> If you visit most restaurant kitchens -- the line cooks and dishwashers are
> almost always men

So your argument is that the discrimination begins much earlier in the chain?

~~~
seattle_spring
Line cooks make a lot less than wait staff. So what you're saying is that it's
actually men who are discriminated against!?

~~~
Johnny555
More men are ending up in line-cook positions that are on the career track to
high paying chef positions, yet you think it's the men that are being
shortchanged?

~~~
umanwizard
What fraction of line cooks become well-paid chefs?

~~~
Johnny555
I have no idea, but the previous commenter said that there are few women chefs
because there are few woman line cooks, and most chefs are line cooks first.

------
blakesterz
"DOL has masked the fact that this rule would be a windfall to restaurant
owners and other employers—out of the pockets of tipped workers—by making it
sound as if this rule is about tip pooling."

Sounds like this one must've been written by lobbyists? Assuming this article
is accurate, why would this seem like a good rule to get rid of?

~~~
briandear
Here's an idea -- why don't we let business owners decide how to pay their
people? If waiters don't like tip pooling, then they can work for another
restaurant that doesn't do it. It's ridiculous that the government even gets
involved in this -- assuming minimum wage is met and taxes are being properly
paid -- what business is it of the government how restaurants operate (beyond
health and safety obviously.) Does the government get involved how a car
saleman's commissions are paid? How about the compensation structure of other
sales-based professions?

~~~
PhasmaFelis
Most employers (especially of cheap labor) will take advantage of their
employees to the fullest extent of the law. If stealing tips is legal, there
won't be "another restaurant that doesn't do it."

We are talking about owners being legally allowed to pocket money that was
given directly to their employees to keep. How can you possibly think actual
theft is a "free market" issue?

