
Epic Games is killing Linux support for games and software it acquired - Jerry2
https://twitter.com/taciturasa/status/1125157955895164930
======
KingMachiavelli
While I don't normally make too big of an issue when games lack Linux support,
Epic games seems openly hostile to the platform as seen by removing support
where it already exists.

I have invested the time in setting up a Windows VM w/ PCI passthrough in
order to play some games with friends. So I am not a hardline free software
user or unwilling to use Windows for playing games.

But when a distributor and developer is openly hostile to the platform even as
it's gaining traction among other developers (Valve, Google, etc), I am
certainly willing to not buy their games anymore as a somewhat political
stance. There are plenty of games that run on Linux for me to spend my time
and money on.

~~~
scjosh
Would you mind sharing your VM setup with PCI passthrough? I had looked into
this previouly, but guides I saw seemed to only let you pass it through
depending on settings at boot of the host OS. From what I understand, this
means that if I wanted to pass the GPU through to the VM, I would lose it in
the host OS until I reboot again. Does your setup let you hotswap it w/o a
reboot?

~~~
KingMachiavelli
Yes, my current setup does allow hotswapping the GPU from the host and guest.
It does require using the integrated or some other GPU to run your X11 server
and then using primusrun when you want to use the dedicated GPU on the host.
I'm using a rather old GTX 760 so I'm not sure if there are any limitations
with newer nvidia cards.

My kernel line is (I disable the spectr/meltdown mitigations so ignore those
parts):

    
    
      root=/dev/mapper/ssd-arch--root rw intel_iommu=on iommu=pt i915.enable_guc=3 i915.disable_power_well=0 i915.enable_psr=1 i915.enable_fbc=1 i915.enable_rc6=1 pci=nomsi,noaer pti=off spectre_v2=off l1tf=off nospec_store_bypass_disable no_stf_barrier
    

The XML for the VM I configured in virt-manager can be found here:

[http://dpaste.com/2HQM8D1](http://dpaste.com/2HQM8D1)

I don't think has any significant modifications. Eventually I want to switch
over to using the newer q35 architecture. The only issues I've had with the VM
are some audio glitches in some games and it has recently had issues with
hugepages so I've had to disable that.

~~~
scjosh
This is awesome, thank you so much!

------
Tsiklon
There will be a non-zero number of people who will have purchased those games
precisely due to there being a linux client available for them.

Pulling support for a client of a competitive online game like Rocket League
is fundamentally closing the game to those players - as they will be unable to
compete online with other players (be it on PC or on the other platforms).

I really don't like Epic's change in behaviour here - It's quite disheartening
since when they used to release first party Linux builds of their products
('Unreal Tournament 2004', and the recently cancelled upcoming 'Unreal
Tournament' had Linux client releases), and they were one of the few big name
game dev houses to actively support Linux clients.

~~~
Mirioron
UE4 itself can build to Linux, so this move just baffles me. If anything, I
thought Epic was going to push harder on Linux.

~~~
pjmlp
1% of desktop market is counting pennies for AAA studios.

~~~
HissingMachine
Before 2007 mobile gaming might have been pennies for AAA studios. A wise
business move isn't about closing doors but peeking through them, the next
stage might very well be gaming on the cloud and cloud rarely runs on windows.

This is just my few pennies about that train of thought.

~~~
Sabinus
Imo no one will game on the cloud. The latencies involved are too great for
fluid gameplay.

------
FullyFunctional
It makes me feel old to remember buying physical media that will still work
today, 30 years later. My fictive grand kids will be able to play those games
long after the worms have gnawed my bones.

Whereas my library of virtual assets will probably evaporate into ether before
I'm even retired.

~~~
Ace17
> My fictive grand kids will be able to play those games long after the worms
> have gnawed my bones.

I would love that you be right. And by far, I strongly prefer physical media.

However, physical media is no guarantee either.

\- Sometimes, the pain is on purpose: some apps require an online activation,
and the corresponding service, 30 years later, is not available anymore.

\- Sometimes, it's a lack of foresight from the developers (i.e overzealous
Windows version checks, refusing newer versions).

\- Sometimes, it's plain dumb stupidity (the installer is a 16-bit windows
executable).

If you're not convinced, I suggest you try installing, say, Wipeout XL (for
Windows 95) on a recent laptop (spoiler: at this point it's easier to play the
PSX version on an emulator).

~~~
earenndil
> at this point it's easier to play the PSX version on an emulator

How hard is it to set up windows 95 in a vm, basically an emulator?

~~~
zaarn
Well, if you want any decent performance, you'll need to pass through a PCI
device which is non-trivial even on modern Hosts and Windows Guests.

~~~
int_19h
Depends on what you mean by "decent performance". PCem emulates on hardware
level (it uses stock BIOS firmware, for example), and it can run Win95 with
about the same perf as a typical machine circa 1996. And it also emulates
3dfx.

------
_iyig
Sad to hear this. I have fond memories of running Unreal Tournament 2004 on
Linux back in the day. I was still in high school and had just the one PC,
which I used both for gaming and the “fooling around with Linux” that led me
to a career in tech. It was a small joy to use a single OS for both
activities, especially with my PC’s smallish hard disk. I didn’t have to dual-
boot or choose between gaming and learning.

------
Rooster61
What keeps people from class actioning the shit out of Epic for rendering
software that they paid for unplayable?

Usually, clauses in EULA's regarding forced arbitration protect companies from
being sued for such nonsense, but seeing as how no such agreement has been
made by these users between them and Epic, I don't see how it can be avoided
legally. Those agreements were made with Valve.

If I suddenly find that I can no longer play Rocket League on Linux as a
result of this, I'll be first in line.

------
bovermyer
Relevant:
[https://twitter.com/TeddyEAC/status/1125665801493798912](https://twitter.com/TeddyEAC/status/1125665801493798912)

> To clarify, Easy Anti-Cheat still provides native Linux support and will
> continue to do so. Earlier comments by a partner reflect ordinary day-to-day
> prioritization decisions on anti-cheat issues across all platforms and not
> any change in long-term priority for Linux.

~~~
MikusR
When did the truth became relevant? You can't generate outrage and views with
truth.

------
olodus
> EGS will never have a Linux build

This feels like a strange thing since the Epic engine is available on Linux (I
used it for dev just a couple of months ago).

I am not disputing the statement, the op makes a good case for atleast Tim
being quite anti-Linux. I just feels really weird that the game store wouldn't
ever get to a platform the engine is already on. It feels short sighted by
Epic. Or I guess it just isn't worth the investment...

~~~
LeoNatan25
EGS itself is an Electron garbage. The whole reason to use Electron garbage is
to build cross-platform crapware on the cheap.

~~~
imtringued
In my experience this is just an excuse. The developers still have to produce
builds for linux and test them and even though this is very easy, they just
don't do it.

~~~
LeoNatan25
Indeed. Using Electron is always a lazy excuse, but developers keep making the
excuses, so we should hold them accountable.

------
nudq
Nontechnical speculation: Just a power struggle with Valve.

Mostly technical speculation: The horrible binary compatibility story of Linux
userland.

Socio-technical speculation because everything is now multiplayer: Less
effective DRM on Linux means more cheaters ruining the game for others, in the
worst case losing more players than Linux adds.

~~~
Sir_Substance
>Mostly technical speculation: The horrible binary compatibility story of
Linux userland.

This has been effectively solved by three different tools. Take your pick
from:

* Appimages

* Snaps

* Flatpaks

Naturally they all have their own upsides and downsides, but if the only thing
holding you back from shipping to linux is concerns about fiddling with shared
libraries, just pick one at random and move on. I suggest appimages as feeling
closest to a fat binary without triggering various licence clauses, deliver it
like it's an exe.

~~~
Aardwolf
Very first AppImage I tried didn't work due to some font library. So nope.

I've built longer lasting pure linux binaries that use SDL with just gcc
myself

~~~
MarvelousWololo
Hey how steep the learning curve for SDL is for a beginner who doesn't even
know C++?

------
rStar
At some point they are going to learn the only lesson in sales that truly
matters to long term success: “make the customer like you.” And then we’re all
going to laugh at them. Unless Tencents coffers are truly bottomless.

------
leshokunin
Well, so much for the argument that having a player that can put pressure on
Steam will help make things more flexible for developers. Such a shame.

------
grawprog
Epic really doesn't want my money at all I guess. Between the constant ads I
receive for their launcher and fortnite. At least one of which isn't actually
available for my operating system(not sure about fortnite), their lack of
support for the operating system I use and their aggressive anti-competitive
behaviour, I find them to be a distasteful company and don't feel like
supporting them in any way.

------
sammorrowdrums
SteamOS helped encourage Linux ecosystem and graphics improvements. Proton
(Valve's wine solution) has made almost all windows games playable on Steam
(some run better than the Linux native versions). Of course DRM issues exist
that screw with it though.

I think that Epic Killing Linux native is a shame but I also think that Valve
has a long plan to make it a viable platform, and it's only begun, where many
assumed they hit and missed.

The fact their VR headset will run on Linux too...

It looks like this won't matter too much to future of Linux gaming is all I'm
saying.

If money and users are there, it's a different ballgame.

~~~
emmp
I'm not sure its entirely fair to say that's their plan has only begun, as
SteamOS first released over 5 years ago in 2013. As best I can tell, it was
originally a strategic hedge against Microsoft locking down Windows in some
way that prioritized the Windows Store for game distribution. That never
really took off for Microsoft, and Valve didn't do a ton of work try to try to
market SteamOS.

Though certainly they've been doing a lot of work behind the scenes with
Proton now. I'm not sure where Proton leads quite yet other than making their
existing Linux user base very happy. It's certainly increased the stickiness
for me.

~~~
sammorrowdrums
It's hard to tell with Valve as projects come and go, but I Believe there is a
coming launch planned. It was mentioned recently but I cannot remember the
source.

We will see over the next year I guess.

------
Afforess
I seem to recall Sony being sued in a class action for yanking linux support
from the PS3 after it was released, and losing. I hope the same happens here.

~~~
favorited
AFAICT those Epic-acquired games will still be available on Steam if you
purchased them there – though they might not get updates, fixes, etc.

~~~
bpye
But Rocket League is primarily multiplayer? How is that gonna work?

~~~
zaarn
Not at all but Epic will surely argue that in principle, the Steam users still
have the version they paid for, nothing more or less. Not their fault they
made updates to their servers that made it non-functional.

------
mistrial9
note to self, avoid Epic titles

~~~
LeoNatan25
Since UT04, what good titles have they done anyway? They have a good engine,
but their games have been terrible for a very long time.

~~~
eswat
They’re starting to acquire more titles now though, so a good chunk of Epic
titles will have some quality to them than the ones they were producing
themselves since the UT days.

~~~
vokep
So they're vacuuming up things that are good...and ruining them...great.

------
Tepix
Just wow. I have been indifferent about Epic Games and their launcher but this
sends a clear message: I will stay clear of their store.

------
taciturasa
Okay, I get it making the rounds on Twitter, but now it's hit Hacker News?
Jesus i'm overwhelmed

------
quantumfoam
I bought an HP x360z Envy recently and added PlayOnLinux which seems to be
similar to going through the whole WINE setup of installer -- easy to do. The
Android MOBAs I play with desktop client support work without issue. Getting
Radeon driver support for VEGA 8 is an entirely different matter though. I'm
running Fedora 30 and before that 29, before it's release, the Cheese camera
app would flip through and flicker with the IR camera with no easy way to
resolve it and thus, making it unusable. It sucks, because the only thing
tying me to my Razer Stealth is gaming and that in turn, to Windows. I can't
say Razer is hardware I could recommend though, think of it as the Apple of
gaming hardware. Steep price with bloatware and in my case, the ocassional
repair that leaves you without a laptop for days (my laptop case warped due to
heat generated). Rather than replacing it because of fault, they just swapped
the case and sent it back. I can expect this issue to happen in a few months
again. Razer support is OK -- I've gone through a few cases where I had to
talk to a x-tier technician who resolved a problem with the Razer Core e-GPU.
Will gaming on Linux ever work? who knows. I'm excited for Google Stadia and
hope it doesn't go the way of OnLive.

------
gyoza
Epic 'Does the Dirty' Games

------
gamblor956
All 10 Linux gamers howled in rage at this news...

If there was a market for Linux games Epic wouldn't have pulled Linux support.
There is no money in Linux gaming, so many companies have started to pull back
on supporting Linux after years of experimenting.

~~~
thrower123
Slightly, but only slightly exaggerated. It's not cost-effective to support a
platform with such small user-base, especially when it is a crapshoot of specs
on the order of 90s PC gaming.

Probably much simpler just to make a solid Windows build that plays nicely
with WINE.

~~~
likeclockwork
The Steam hardware survey doesn't really support your claims about Linux
hardware specs vs Windows: [https://store.steampowered.com/hwsurvey/Steam-
Hardware-Softw...](https://store.steampowered.com/hwsurvey/Steam-Hardware-
Software-Survey-Welcome-to-Steam)

Let alone MacOS, which is more supported than Linux but has comparatively much
poorer hardware stats.

~~~
jonas21
According to your link, 0.81% of Steam users are running Linux. And they're
spread out over a number of distributions, with the largest share at 0.20% for
Ubuntu 18.04. Seems to support the claim that it's a very small and fragmented
user base.

~~~
Dylan16807
The post you replied to is about hardware specs, not the size of the user
base.

~~~
pjmlp
Which is filled with broken driver experiences, and a pleothora of
distributions.

~~~
Sir_Substance
I gather from your comment that it's been a while since you refreshed your
knowledge of the current state of linux.

Graphics card driver issues largely stopped being a problem about 4 years ago,
with both major graphics card manufacturers committing to open source drivers.

Packaging for multiple distributions is a problem that I would call "solved"
for the past ~2 years, see my comment here:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19844241](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19844241)

~~~
pjmlp
Maybe that is why AMD open source drivers still doesn't properly support my
travel notebook APU.

So where is the great hardware video decoding and the GL features fxgl was
capable of?

~~~
jnurmine
Accelerated video support is in the amdgpu driver which supports va-api (and
vdpau).

~~~
pjmlp
It doesn't support my AMD card, which was doing perfectly fine with fxgl, and
DX11 on the Windows side.

~~~
jnurmine
I take it your card is pretty old. There's always an option of staying at an
older OS (like Ubuntu pre 16.04) to keep fglrx. What is your AMD card, by the
way?

~~~
pjmlp
Brazos APU.

So the solution is to stay on a legacy kernel, with the security risks it
entails, while my Windows 10 can perfectly make use of the DX 11 drivers.

~~~
likeclockwork
So. Your old (2011), low tier, graphics hardware doesn't work on Linux because
AMD scrapped their old terrible driver and abandoned it in their new driver?
The company you bought your APU from dropped support for you, what has that to
do with Linux? How is that not just another case of another company dropping
support for Linux on a product after they already have your money? (Pennies on
the dollar, I think you called it.)

AMD's low-middle tier hardware is known to be mediocre, their drivers are
known to be poor, and they're also known to drop support for hardware much
faster than their competitors.

Yeah, you can run Linux on nearly anything.. but that doesn't mean you should
try to sit in front of an old machine running old low quality components from
manufacturers that don't support their low margin products.

~~~
pjmlp
Yet the Windows driver is still supported, go figure.

~~~
Sir_Substance
Well, actually, about that...

You never did give your graphics card model number, but according to this[1]
page the Brazos platform had two codename variants for laptops and notebooks:
Ontario and Zacate. Hondo and Desna were exclusively for tablets. There were
no variants for desktops.

According to this page[2] that puts your card somewhere in the Radion HD 6xxx
or HD7xxx driver set, and the only references to Ontario are the Radeon HD
6290 and the Radeon HD 7340.

If you go to the AMD drivers download page[3] you'll discover that both of
these cards have dropped off the bottom of the list of supported cards in
their respective driver categories.

Now hey, maybe your card is a slightly newer model and it's still in that
download list. I don't know, since I don't know your exact card model. But my
10 seconds of research says that actually it's probably not supported any
more. If I'm wrong about that then you're pretty god damn close to the cliff
edge at this point.

[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AMD_Accelerated_Processing_Uni...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AMD_Accelerated_Processing_Unit#K10_architecture_\(2011\):_Llano)
[2]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radeon_HD_6000_Series](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radeon_HD_6000_Series)
[3] [https://www.amd.com/en/support](https://www.amd.com/en/support)

