
What we learned from 3 years of bra engineering, and what's next - hazelynut
https://bratheory.com/what-we-learned-and-whats-next/
======
yodon
This seems like a good time to mention the history of the Apollo space suits,
which were made for the manliest of men in the highly gender normed 1950's by
the largest corset and bra maker in the country. Why? Because bras and girdles
require incredibly high skill design and fabrication engineering, as bra
theory is discovering and as no other garment manufacturer of the day could
equal.

[0] [http://mentalfloss.com/article/82726/how-playtex-helped-
win-...](http://mentalfloss.com/article/82726/how-playtex-helped-win-space-
race)

~~~
rootusrootus
That sounds really interesting, but Google says that ILC Dover had become it's
own division in the later 1940s and was already into aerospace before Apollo
came along. So ... was it really Playtex switching from bras to space suits,
or is that just click bait because the only real involvement of Playtex is as
the legal owner of the division?

~~~
saalweachter
The GP actually left out the critical portion of the story.

The reason Playtex built the space suits because they were the ones who came
up with the idea of a cloth spacesuit.

Building a space suit is tricky because you are pressurized over the
environment; if you just sewed a simple air-proof garment it would inflate and
it would be difficult to bend your arms and legs to move around in space. Most
companies bidding on building a spacesuit were proposing designs similar to
deep sea suits, which are rigid metal and plastic with complicated joints to
allow it to bend and move while maintaining a constant volume.

Playtex was able to design a constant-volume air-tight suit out of layers and
layers (like 17) of different types of fabric; this was directly related to
their core competencies.

------
jaf656s
There's a really good point in here that I had to learn the hard way: one of a
founder's most valuable assets is a deep understanding of the customer's
problem(s) and how to solve them.

The tech is far less important.

She first tried a naive tech-focused approach and realized that she didn't
understand the problem well enough and making adjustments to the tech was
slowing her learning down too much.

She made a great decision to optimize for learning speed and temporarily build
a more traditional custom-fit bra business. She has learned a lot about the
problem space and what makes a good solution.

Now she's using technology as a tool to enhance and optimize the process that
already arrives at a good solution.

We do the same thing when we write code:

    
    
      1. understand the problem
      2. write a correct solution
      3. optimize the solution
    

When it comes to coding we know Knuth's Law of optimization by heart, but
still make the same mistake in other contexts.

~~~
HenryTheHorse
> one of a founder's most valuable assets is a deep understanding of the
> customer's problem(s) and how to solve them.

IMHO, it's the ONLY thing that matters - and like you, I too learned it the
hard way. Optimizing for non-existent (or non-critical) problems is a very
common mistake.

------
DelaneyM
The many concerns in this thread (and their upvotes) about price (350$) are
one of the best examples of the risks of gender imbalance in venture funding
I've yet seen.

I suspect pretty much any woman in North America, regardless of ability to
afford it, would see that as a totally rational price point.

And as someone who _can_ afford it, I'm seriously weighing a trip to NYC to be
fitted.

~~~
jimmy1
You can make a ton of money by sitting in a bar and listening to a group of
women express their grievances to each other, and the extents they would be
willing to go to remedy said grievances and then solving that problem --
uncomfortable bras are one of those frequent topics. Personally for my working
wife and her group of nursing mother friends, they would pay almost anything
for a convenient breast pump without all the hoses and tubes (just in case
anyone is listening out there ;) )

~~~
josephv
[https://www.willowpump.com/](https://www.willowpump.com/)

These things seem to be fairly new. Not available afaik 4 years ago when my we
needed one. I've heard good reviews of the style, but don't know anything
about specific brands.

------
PaulHoule
This quote is great:

"Lesson #2: Be prepared to learn all the reasons why no one has solved your
problem."

So often no progress gets made because there are five reasons people haven't
made progress but everybody is making excuses about why they only need to
solve three of them and wondering why their "minimal" product isn't viable.

------
salamanderman
For those in the Bay Area, I highly recommend Revelation In Fit,
[https://www.revelationinfit.com](https://www.revelationinfit.com) . It's
completely changed how I think of fit; I'm an F cup, an H when I was nursing,
and having a real fit is no comparison to the days of have a Nordstrom
employee trying to convince me to squash into a D. Definitely visit Revelation
In Fit before flying to New York, and then maybe fly out. It does sound
awesome.

------
mysterydip
Lesson #4: Perfect is the enemy of good

I find myself re-learning or having to remind myself of this every so often.
It's easy as a "person of a problem-solving nature" to want my solution to be
problem-free. But what that usually ends up meaning is my solution never gets
completed. Tackle the low-hanging fruit, then if there's enough demand/reason
to continue development, do the rest.

~~~
Zelphyr
We tell our clients this over, and over, and over, and over. And over. It's
really hard to let their baby into the world without it being perfect. Even
when you show them the graveyard of products (my own included!) that found
themselves there because their owners hadn't defined what "Good enough" means
from the get-go.

------
ArtWomb
Love write-ups like this: applying research methods to everyday scenarios. If
you are going to go all out, definitely consider graphene as a candidate
material. You can always put "Tactical" in the name and sell to the Defense
industry ;)

Graphene fed spiders spin bionic silk

[https://newatlas.com/bionic-spider-silk-
graphene/50908/](https://newatlas.com/bionic-spider-silk-graphene/50908/)

------
dsfyu404ed
A lot of people in the comments seem to be forgetting that the relationship
between quality (or utility) and price is almost never even close to linear,
it is approximately logarithmic with price on the X axis. A $350 bra is well
into the long tail. There is nothing "value" about it but it's not trying to
be a good value, it's trying to be a superb product. The cost is basically
just a number when you're at the very top end like that.

------
cimmanom
There's a lot of focus in this thread on the bras, specifically. But the
lessons learned, as described in the article, are much more generalizable, and
I found them valuable.

How many of us spend years perfecting products instead of launching an MVP and
learning as we go? How many of us build automation before seeking domain
expertise when we really should do it the other way around?

------
yason
The linked article [https://medium.com/@hazelynut/why-i-have-a-problem-with-
bras...](https://medium.com/@hazelynut/why-i-have-a-problem-with-bras-
ff75f0e6fe23) was a very interesting breakdown of what all it takes and why
basically all bras are often just bad approxximations.

------
amluto
Something I didn’t see in the article: is their a pricing model for multiple
bras? I can imagine that a lot of people who would buy a $350 bra would gladly
pay $750 for, say, 10 bras. Or even for a smaller number of bras and a copy of
the pattern that they can use to get new bras later from Bra Theory or
elsewhere.

------
anyzen
This doesn't make sense to me. Ok, so I understand that it is time consuming
to take the first measurement, but I would assume that the first bra would be
expensive, but all the next ones would be much cheaper (if it's the same
model) or getting cheaper and cheaper with each order. What am I missing?

~~~
CydeWeys
As the article says, they're all custom-fabricated to match the exact
dimensions of a specific person. These are one-off, custom bras. There's
little economy of scale possible.

~~~
cimmanom
It sounds like the plan is to eventually automate fabrication in order to
achieve such economies of scale; that they're currently doing it manually in
part because they didn't yet have enough information to properly automate.

------
Jun8
Maybe I missed in the article but it seems they're not using 3D modeling. Why
not, esp. considering the prevalence of cheap 3D sensors? According to Google
there are many people working in this area (as well as shoe fitting).

The goal should be to totally _smash_ current custom fit prices, e.g. to ~$50
level, e.g. using a self-serve fitting station at Macy's. Many such stations
can be monitored by one person, similar to how self-serve check out stations
are monitored in grocery stores.

The above is for mass market. OP's manual approach can still be used as a
high-end service for those who can afford it, e.g. pret-a-porter vs. tailor.

~~~
kaitai
I agree with most of your comment, but the difference between bra fitting and
shoe fitting is that you don't want to change the shape of your foot. Most
women do want to change the shape of their breasts, even if not consciously:
for instance, if your breast point outward & spread a lot, the fit of clothing
is changed; if you have droopy breasts, you generally want to hold them up,
again in the interest of clothing fit if nothing else; if you're involved in
sports, you may want to create certain shapes to optimize your participation.

3D fitting would be really interesting, but not straightforward. It's hard to
do the nonlinear transformation that would be necessary, partly because
density of breast tissue varies a lot and so not all transformation functions
would actually be possible. The "bloat" factor outlined in the article would
also have an effect -- hormones, salt consumption, water consumption all
affect that. 3D modeling might be most useful for placement of underwires,
etc.

------
waterhouse
So the original post[1] commented that there is a combinatorial explosion of
possible bras from having, the author says, 10 parameters to work with.

I read that there was a similar scenario in the design of airplane cockpits,
such that there were enough different dimensions of human variation that it
was hopeless to design for the "average pilot": even assuming that each
dimension had 80% of pilots within the acceptable range, it was basically
guaranteed to be unacceptable for the vast majority of pilots. I read that the
solution was to make all the relevant aspects of the cockpit adjustable; and
that this was deemed expensive and dismissed at first, but it became obviously
necessary and they sucked it up and did it.

A simple, cheap, and effective process for custom-made bras seems ideal if
they have it, but if that is difficult, then I wonder: could it work to make
as many dimensions as possible adjustable, and then suffer only mild
combinatorial explosion on the remainder?

[1] [https://medium.com/@hazelynut/why-i-have-a-problem-with-
bras...](https://medium.com/@hazelynut/why-i-have-a-problem-with-bras-
ff75f0e6fe23) , linked from the article.

------
gumby
This article is full of great advice/experience, and I almost skipped over it
as I don't wear bras.

------
meroes
Good article and people are reading way to much into the bra theory, which
isn't the lesson here.

------
larkinrichards
It seems to me that the hardproblem here is reliably measuring breasts, and
then reliably (and repeatably!) manufacturing the perfect bra.

It is not a question of designing the perfect bra given a set of measurements.
It’s more “can we make it perfectly?” And “are the measurements accurate?”

as any seamstress or seamster would tell you, it takes a life time to sew
perfectly. It’s a CNC mill where you need to tension the materials and threads
just perfectly while you move the x/y table.

And if you’ve ever had a suit measured, you know the person taking
measurements needs to be in sync with the manufacturer, otherwise it’s a waste
of time.

And for what it’s worth, my partner would not pay $350 for a perfect bra (and
I mean perfect!).

------
syntaxing
Interesting. I wonder if they only do product design tests (design to their
best ability and ask for feedback from trial users) or do they hire a
mechanical engineer to run FEA simulation through something like COMSOL or
ANSYS.

------
mitchtbaum
Since the interest here comes from the engineering angle, there's another
interesting tool to bring up, Reusable Adhesive Silicone Nipple Covers. If I
had breasts, I'd probably wear those instead, for better freedom of motion and
heat dissipation. afaict, bras don't prevent breasts from sagging anyway[0].
Looking at the top results just on Amazon's store, there appears to be huge
interest developing in using those and I see lots of reviews of women saying
they're so happy not to have to wear a bra anymore.

0: [https://www.thelingerieaddict.com/2013/11/last-time-
tribal-a...](https://www.thelingerieaddict.com/2013/11/last-time-tribal-
african-women-proof-bras-prevent-breast-sagging.html)

~~~
kleinsch
Which is the more likely scenario?

1\. Women everywhere are spending tons of money on uncomfortable garments to
cover their nipples, because they don't realize nipple covers exist

2\. Bras serve a much bigger purpose than covering nipples (hint - what's a
jock strap used for? imagine needing that all day, not just when you're
running...)

~~~
novia
Hi, I'm a woman. #1 is definitely the more likely scenario, based on
conversations I've had with other women without large breasts. The only people
who like wearing bras are people who feel like they need support for whatever
reason. For everyone else, they are complicated nipple covers that you are
expected by society to wear.

~~~
nicoburns
I'm a man, but this reflects what I hear from women too. Those with larger
breast really appreciate the support from a bra. Those with smaller breasts
mostly prefer not wearing them (from a physical comfort perspective at least).

------
glibgil
> Launch the NYC experience

> Nude

> Colors

Who’s “nude”? When is the industry going to update this term? If a female
person of color outsider won’t, I guess it’s not important to anyone

~~~
kaitai
It's more charitable to assume that this would be a set of six+ colors from
pale to deep. You're making unwarranted assumptions.

To respond to your point below, all major manufacturers now make a range of
"nude" colors. The range of colors may be stunted, on both ends, but if you've
shopped recently you know that a range is easily available.

------
CosmicShadow
Love how many men in this thread are acting like they have an opinion that
matters about a market AND body parts they can never truly understand.

~~~
DoofusOfDeath
It would be helpful if you could restate your point with greater nuance.

As currently phrased, it sounds like you're perhaps suggesting men stay out of
the conversation entirely.

~~~
kaybe
It is a bit astonishing that there are so many opinions and so few questions.

~~~
chrisco255
That's a typical HN comment section though.

------
pp19dd
$350.

Per.

~~~
codewritinfool
With what my wife spends on other clothing, $350 for a bra that fits and is of
high quality seems ok. I think this is a good market.

~~~
notyourday
The downvoted into oblivion comment is actually correct: this price point is
dead. She is competing not just with the custom shops but with La Perla's
custom boutiques where purchases come with a glass of Veuve Clicquot and if
that runs out when a person shops than another one or another one.

The only price point that may have space is where VS Apex was for a better
fit.

------
mixmastamyk
Did our high school counselors let us down or what?

------
jbob2000
-

~~~
jacobush
This is what it is _yet_ , but unlike all the other bra makers, these are on a
mission. Maybe they lie about being on a mission, maybe they will fail, but
they are reaching for more than any bra company before them.

------
Invictus0
> Temperature of the measuring tape at time of measuring

Can't tell if this is real or not. I'm fairly confident that the thermal
expansion of the measuring tape is not going to make even a tenth of a
millimeter difference in precision: does it have to do with the temperature of
the skin?

~~~
gowld
It could be real (more likely a skin effect than a tape effect) but
insignificant, but just a pile-on of "differentiating" features.

------
hsnewman
All I comment is: [https://youtu.be/AS8nXc3X-6k](https://youtu.be/AS8nXc3X-6k)

------
jstanley
> we have learned through firsthand experience many of the variables behind
> bra-making. I will name a short list:

> [...]

> Temperature of the measuring tape at time of measuring

Are you sure?

If the measuring tape is made of steel, it expands by a factor of 13e-6[0] for
every degree C that it heats up. If you measure first with a 0 degree C tape
measure, and then with a 100 degree C tape measure (both of which are absurd
and will be extremely uncomfortable), then the second measurement will differ
from the first by a factor of 13e-4. A measurement of 100mm will become
100.0013mm. Can you even cut the fabric precisely enough for that to matter?

[0] [http://hyperphysics.phy-
astr.gsu.edu/hbase/Tables/thexp.html](http://hyperphysics.phy-
astr.gsu.edu/hbase/Tables/thexp.html)

EDIT: But see replies below: it's more likely that the temperature of the tape
causes changes in the shape of the skin.

EDIT2: Also just realised I initially missed out the second factor of 100, so
it becomes 100.13mm instead of 100.0013mm, which is _almost_ close enough to
matter, but only in the extreme scenario of 100 degrees C change in
temperature.

~~~
JoeAltmaier
Nobody measures people with a steel tape? Its cloth or plastic.

~~~
jstanley
OK, my mistake. To me, a tape measure is a steel thing that coils itself up.
Let's try and find some numbers for cloth and plastic:

[https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/linear-expansion-
coeffici...](https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/linear-expansion-coefficients-
d_95.html)

ABS heats up by a factor of 100e-6 per degree C. The largest number I spotted
was paraffin with 106e-6 to 480e-6 per degree C.

If the tape measure is made of the most-expanding type of paraffin, which is
itself the most-expanding material listed, then the 100mm measurement becomes
100.05mm when heated by 100 degrees C. I really don't think a difference of 50
micrometres matters, or is even achievable, in the manufacture of a bra.

EDIT: (But I see the other points now - it's not the thermal expansion of the
tape, but the body's reaction to the temperature).

~~~
jschwartzi
Intercostal muscle tension probably has a bigger effect than thermal expansion
of the tape. The intercostals are the muscles that control how close together
your ribs are. They're auxilliary muscles for breathing. Diaphragm and core
muscle tension will also have an effect. Your pectoralis muscles and trapezius
and deltoids will all also have an effect. These are all muscles that control
the size and shape of your ribcage. The human body is not a static shell, but
flexes and changes shape depending on the tension of different muscles.

When we touch cold things to our skin, we naturally tense up. If your
intercostals, diaphragm, and core are tense when you're being fitted for
something that is snug against your chest, then when you get it out of the box
it will be too tight.

------
ryanmercer
350$ for a garment? For an undergarment?! What?! That's 48 hours of minimum
wage in my state for _maybe_ 15$ of material IF it includes hand-made lace.

You can buy custom-made corsets for cheaper than this (yes they can be far
more expensive but most of that is exotic material cost). You can buy custom
made lifting boots/shoes for this that have a considerably higher material
cost.

I work in international freight currently, I know extremely well what imported
textiles cost including bras, even if these are hand-made in the US per
customer there's an awful lot of profit there unless they are made out of
unobtanium.

This is a prime example of 'pink tax' in my opinion and/or inefficient
manufacturing processes (again, even if hand made) and/or unreasonable
salaries.

