
The 33-year-old virgin: Life without sex is only torturous if you let it be - DLay
http://www.salon.com/2014/06/02/the_33_year_old_virgin_life_without_sex_is_only_torturous_if_you_let_it_be/
======
drblast
The thought occurred to me while reading this that there are probably lots of
33-year-old non-virgins who nevertheless have not had the caring relationship
this man wants. I think the sex is irrelevant.

Although I'd have to advise this guy to just go get laid so it's not a
sticking point in his relationships. And it's just fun. Go have fun with
someone. It's sex, not a rocket launch.

~~~
haberdash
Throwaway.

Correct for part. I'm in a similar situation, but only 28. Five years to go.
Twelve to a movie.

In my mind—and this is entirely anecdotal—sex and relationships are merely a
checkpoint for the life of a person. It's nothing more than a signifier, of
which people place a negative connotation on being a virgin. I'm not here by
choice, but by inability to progress against these signifiers.

While I agree with your point about the sex being irrelevant, the entirety of
the statement of "It's sex" framed as a triviality is dead wrong. I, and I
assume most other virgins, have severe issues with dealing with social cues.
When you say "someone" who is that? Is it someone at the bar? A friendly
glance at work? I can't tell. I'm pretty bad at learning social cues. I'm not
sure where to do them. Or at who.

And because I'm bad at learning those social cues, I'm afraid to be forward. A
friend who was sexually harassed at work gave me the advice to try a small
company because "they have more relationships between coworkers there." It's
somewhat irrelevant advice given how tone-deaf I am to general human
interactions. Kind of ironic too, considering I probably couldn't tell the
difference between harmless office flirting and sexual harassment. Which is
why it's precluded in my mind.

Much like T.H. White's Merlin, I realize my doom, but am unable to change it.
I'm guessing it's a chemical issue with my locus of control.

EDIT: I spend a majority of my free time in the gym. I'm very fit, so it's not
a matter of appearance. Minus any crazy expression on my face.

~~~
34yearold
Also on a throwaway with only six years until the movie. I never understood
why people make such a big deal over this. It's far more important to me to
have it be the right person and time than to do it just because everybody else
says you should.

I'm fully cognizant of the fact that the right person and the right time may
never come. I'm okay with that.

~~~
SoDisposable
Throwaway; I'm 14 years away from the movie and I couldn't agree more with
this point. I still have yet to have sex, any physical relations (cuddling,
holding hands etc), have a girlfriend, or really feel real emotional
attraction towards another person in a romantic capacity (as I understand it),
and yet I feel perfectly fulfilled and don't at all question my masculinity. I
used to get upset about not having a gf / being a virgin, but then I realized
that my emotions were mostly driven by a desire to conform to some arbitrary
social metric of success. Once I realized that, I stopped caring and have been
far happier, less stressed, and more social.

~~~
mercer
I'm inclined to agree with you personally.

That said, I came to see relationships and the intimacy that comes with it as
very valuable once I 'tried' it, despite the fact that said relationships
were, to a large degree, painful. I learned a tremendous amount from them, and
there were a lot of benefits I didn't really understand before.

My approach is that something I haven't tried before is worth trying,
especially if it's a 'common' thing. But at the same time I feel doing so
_because_ it's a 'common' thing is not the best of motivations.

~~~
SoDisposable
> My approach is that something I haven't tried before is worth trying,
> especially if it's a 'common' thing. But at the same time I feel doing so
> because it's a 'common' thing is not the best of motivations.

I agree and am certainly open to being in a relationship if I find someone
that I am interested in. The biggest barrier to entry for me has been finding
people that I like honestly. I actually have difficulty conceptualizing what
it means to "like" someone (although I assume the feeling is significantly
different from friendship and exponentially 'more pleasurable' than
friendship).

> I learned a tremendous amount from them, and there were a lot of benefits I
> didn't really understand before.

Would you mind elaborating?

~~~
mercer
In no particular order:

 __I learned a lot of uncomfortable stuff about my behavior in a short time __

These were things that I had never noticed before, despite being a very
introspective, reflective person (and a psychologist to boot). And I think the
relationship was key to that. While my friendships also uncover new truths
about myself, I can generally keep things as superficial as I desire, and I
have a lot of control over when to see my friends, in what context, and for
how long. Relationships (generally) have a tendency to break out of those
patterns, uncovering a lot in a short time.

This has proved so beneficial that I don't even regret some of the truly toxic
and emotionally harrowing situations I've been in. No pain, no gain, I guess.

 __For certain things of varying importance, I could rely on my 'significant
other'. A form of symbiosis, I guess __

I am not a practical or very, uh, physical man. When I 'm caught up in
something, I forget to eat (or eat healthily), I forget to do my laundry or
clean my house, I forget to meet friends (either for my benefit, theirs, or
both of ours), or I forget to even just go outside.

And once I break out of this obsession, I often realize in hindsight that it
wasn't always worth forgetting that other stuff. And yet I keep doing this,
and from looking at my father, this is quite possibly something I cannot break
out of without _significant_ effort. Effort that I'd rather spend on other
things.

When I was in a relationship with someone who was different enough in these
regards, but similar enough to not cause too much friction, my life improved
immensely, including the efficacy of the targets of my obsessions. It turns
out a balanced life is usually better :).

While this might be an extreme example and you might not identify with this, I
think most people have their blind spots, and while my previous point could
arguably be 'solved' by fixing the _flaws_ , it is much harder (and perhaps
less desirable) to 'fix' these _personality traits_.

 __Sex, physical intimacy, and a direct 'responsibility' to another person is
generally a fundamental aspect of being human __

I am happy alone. Truly happy. I also probably have a lower libido than most.
I don 't understand people who can't be alone or need sex all the time and
will put up with terrible partners or consequences to achieve this.

And yet, I learned that while I am perhaps unusual in this regard, it's quite
likely that to some degree I _learned_ to be happy alone, and I _learned_ to
be happy without having sex very often, but this might not be my ideal state.
And experimenting in this regard has given me a more nuanced view of myself,
where I realize that the hug I get might be exactly the one I needed, even
though I didn't feel like that before I got the hug (for example).

The bottom-line is that I've known many people in relationships and I've known
many people without them. Happiness is perhaps as closely related to being in
one or the other category as we often think, but there _is_ a relation, in my
opinion.

'Norms' can be at the very least informative as to what is _likely_ a healthy
approach. And my personal experience with people who have no (romantic)
relationships, or for that matter people who have no friends, is that
especially later in life they seem to grow in a way that does not seem to make
them happier. More successful perhaps, or more valuable to society, but often
obviously (to me) less happy. Loneliness is a terrible affliction, and can
sneak up on you.

Whether you want to take the risk of being 'on your own' (in whichever
particular form you choose) depends partly on your desired outcome, of course.
Newton was a recluse, but perhaps he lived the most fulfilling and happy life
he could have led, and at the very least he was very important to the world
(in my opinion).

For me, I don't want to take such a risk without having experimented with the
alternatives. I might very well choose to remain alone for much of my life,
but at least I have (some) idea of what I might be missing out on, and some
experience and skill to reconsider my choices later (which can be hard if you
have no experience in this regard).

That said, I'm still young and I might be full of shit... :-). Ask me again in
a few decades!

(also, perhaps the key point is that I didn't always greatly desire a
relationship and I didn't always _like_ the person. Especially the first time,
it was a conscious choice to try something big, new, and potentially
dangerous, but less dangerous than I had initially thought).

------
parennoob
Asexuality is a real thing. I'm hypothesizing that this guy might be asexual.
Asexuality is cool, whatever sexual orientation you are; you are that and you
should carry it proudly. Alternatively (and I think this is more probable), he
also sounds like a person who is neck-deep in inner shame about his virginity,
and is rationalizing it saying, "Oh, but at least I'm not a misogynistic slob
[his words]."

But I fail to see how this article is not tantamount to thrusting your own
sexual preferences onto someone else's. The majority of guys I know are not
asexual, and would not be cool being a virgin at 33 (nor would most of HN's
male readership IMO; maybe we should have a poll to see). I see close
parallels here with an article by some wacko saying, "Being gay is only a
thing if you let it be. See how I suppressed my homosexuality?"

tl;dr -- Being a virgin at 33 is okay for you, and that's cool. But for a lot
of men, being a 33-year old virgin is going to be tortuous. And that's okay
too, you probably shouldn't be telling them "it's like that only if you let it
be."

~~~
34yearold
I am a 34-year old male virgin. There's nothing bad about this. You guys make
way too big a deal about it. I always here people talk about sex like they'll
die without it, but it's just not that important.

~~~
parennoob
> I am a 34-year old male virgin. There's nothing bad about this.

So far so good. That's perfectly fine; I'm cool with that -- and a lot of HN
readership probably is too. I doubt there's a ton of intolerant people here
who go, "WHAT? A _34 year old male virgin_? No way, get out!"

> You guys make way too big a deal about it. I always here people talk about
> sex like they'll die without it, but it's just not that important.

I don't see the point in telling people this. Maybe they are different, have
different levels of hormones than you do, and have different emotions. As long
as they aren't forcing you to have sex, I don't see that you should be telling
them it's no big deal. Maybe it _is_ a big deal to them. I don't see much
difference between saying this and telling a gay person, "Gah, attraction to
other men is just not that important. Just don't think of guys, and you should
get over it."

~~~
mcv
> I doubt there's a ton of intolerant people here who go, "WHAT? A 34 year old
> male virgin? No way, get out!"

Maybe not here, but it in society in general, that is unfortunately an
extremely common attitude. You're supposed to have as much sex as you can, and
if you don't, there's something wrong with you. It's a stupid and harmful
attitude, but it doesn't seem to be going away.

I mean, sex is nice, but there are plenty of things better than sex. The
context of the sex matters a lot too, yet society tells us that any sex is
better than no sex.

------
adamrights
I find it hard to believe a "stand-up comic, writer and director from Astoria,
NY" that "hangs out" in the night scene has not met friends that will sleep
with him just for the sake of giving him some experience -- out of philo-love
motivation, because having spent a fair bit of time in the area, there are
quite a few people who would feel sleeping with a friend in this need is just
the right thing to do.

~~~
Nanzikambe
TFA says he decided long ago that since he's waited this long, he can wait a
little longer so that the first woman that sleeps with him cares for him. So I
guess that excludes the well intentioned mercy fuck.

I see his logic, but I can't help but think that's a barrier, after all how
will someone ever care for you if there's this gigantic barrier from the get
go. I'm not female, but tbh I'd see as being as weird as finding out your date
is some sort a member of a sec or a drooling fundamentalist.

~~~
kaitai
As a woman who has dated only nerds, being a virgin is not a barrier/problem
at all. It is sweet to be with a guy who hasn't just slept around. (Not
totally dissing the guys who have, but it's just not everyone's type!)

~~~
nickonline
But the barrier might not be on the females side, he's waited 33 years, how
does he decide after 33 years that this time it is worth it.

------
adamconroy
I think he should just get laid already. His idea of doing it with someone who
cares is fraught, as there is a good chance he will get dumped and it will be
crushing because of his circumstances, and because it wont mean as much to his
first partner there will be a power imbalance in the relationship. He may also
be so smitten that he ends up marrying the first one even if she isn't the
right choice. Once in this marriage he will soon be regretting not having
other experiences.

~~~
a3voices
_I think he should just get laid already._

Much easier said than done. I would advise him to talk to lots of women and
connect with them, and try to build something meaningful with one. If that
happens, sex will also inevitably.

------
nybblet
The article is too hard to analyze in terms of actionable advice, so to speak
---too many factors that confound analysis of the author's position---but
these comments are fascinating.

It seems that to many people, sex is just a way to pleasure themselves, or
just a status symbol. And if their partners are fine with that, then by all
means they should indulge.

Some other people, though, don't want to use other people just to pleasure
themselves without intending to commit to anything greater. And if their
partners are fine with that, then by all means they should refrain.

This view of, indeed fixation with, sex---as a "coming of age," as a way to
preen socially, as a tool for pleasure---relegates to a position at most
secondary the value of a genuine and meaningful relationship. Ultimately,
though, it's a matter of priorities: people should choose what they value.

Logically and from experience, many people who have casual sex with people who
are fine with having casual sex end up in casual relationships.

And in a similar vein, I happen to know a lot of women---and men---who would
be extremely reluctant to enter into a relationship with anyone who slept
around casually, and would much rather be with someone who waited until they
already had a meaningful relationship. As someone mentioned, after all, if a
meaningful relationship founded on more than desire for pleasure (which
focuses on the self) or even lust (which does include the other person)
exists, surprise surprise: a natural desire for sex will probably follow. And
probably the sex will be longer and better.

~~~
neolefty
It's only somewhat exciting, but it's his life, and I think it represents an
unusual contrast: He's sexually un-accomplished (a virgin at 33) but also
creatively accomplished (a successful comic & scriptwriter). That contrast,
plus the candid description of his life and good writing, make it accessible
and appealing.

Disclaimer: I also love /r/mildlyinteresting

~~~
nybblet
True enough; I meant conditioned on the slant many of the comments were
taking, which was certainly not made clear in my comment---apologies.

------
Jtsummers
> I’ve seen women I liked sleep with my friends behind my back. In fact one
> did that on my 22nd birthday. I was depressed as hell the next day.

If I could I'd ask this guy some questions: Did you ever ask any of these
women out? Did your friend know your interest was more than a simple crush? If
the answer to either of these questions is no, then one or both of those
individuals are faultless here. And if the answer is yes, did she reject you
already? Did he let you know that he, too, was interested in her? Then you
needed to consider moving on or moving in faster (and possibly being rejected,
but that's life).

Folks, if you're in this or a similar situation (years of chastity and no
relationships, if not virginity) then just consider what you're doing. Do you
ever express your interest? Do you shy away from the one you're interested in
when you finally happen to be seated at dinner next to them? Take that time to
get to know them. Then ask them out. If they say no, move on. It's not easy,
and it's not instant, but it has to be done for your own mental health. Please
do not get hung up on someone for years, look around you. If you're a decent
person someone is interested in you. Pay attention. Do they laugh at your
stupid jokes? Do they, a non-technical person, find your interest in math
fascinating? Are they always trying to go to the same things you do, asking to
carpool? Realize, you probably do the same thing with the person you have a
crush on. If you can't find them in your current social circle, expand it.
Start going to trivia at a local sports bar. Talk to the other teams, be
friendly, get to know more people. Go play a team sport. Host parties, go to
parties.

But, if you follow the other advice in this thread to just get laid, try not
to get too heady about it. Realize that if it takes you just a few days or a
few hours from meeting someone to sleeping with them, it's probably not going
to be longterm. Let that experience happen and clear your head and get out
there.

------
delish
this is great testimony. it's tragically common for people to let one shameful
fact define them. I find myself thinking, "i have such weird interests; when i
try to explain them to others, i always fail, and feel alienated."

that's my analogue to being-a-virgin; often i let my "I am weird" be my reason
to stay in on weekends, to deny my friends my company without giving a good
reason.

i have to actively tell myself, "people often like me. they don't judge me
[nearly] as harshly as i judge myself. they see me differently than i see
myself."

i sympathize with this guy.

~~~
34yearold
I'm a 34-year old virgin. I don't think that being one is shameful, though I
understand that others do for whatever strange reason.

~~~
xor-ed-wolf
I am in the same boat. Don't see what is wrong with not having sex if I feel
comfortable as it is. It looks for me as those people that gone crazy without
sex are the same ones that would have gone crazy even with it.

------
dllthomas
This seems to be generalizing (and possibly moralizing) from one person's
experience, which is always dangerous. This clearly establishes that _some
people_ get along fine without sex, for some definition of fine. That _is_ an
important point, and probably something we need better social understanding
of. It does _not_ establish that this is true of all people and those bothered
just need to suck it up.

Though it should go without saying that shooting people (or rape or even
manipulation) is not an appropriate response.

------
throwaway24235
30 here. Just for the purpose of stats and to give some idea of who is writing
this since it's a throwaway and I'm not willing to link to my social profiles
(you'll just have to trust me), I have always gotten quite a bit of female
attention, even more now as age has done me well I'd say. I get quite a few
"first messages" (they initiated conversation) from attractive women on
certain dating sites.

With that out of the way, I'm also a "traditional virgin" at the moment. I say
that because there's more than one sex act, and therefore more than one kind
of virginity. The why for me has nothing to do with looks or personality, it's
more a combination of not wanting to be too close with certain girls/women I
was seeing when I was younger, life circumstances, etc.

I also don't see sex as a casual thing, it's very much a relationship intimacy
thing for me, emotionally. I also don't see virginity as something to "get rid
of" as fast as possible, so I simply haven't worried about it all that much.

I don't fit the "unattractive, awkward virgin" category even a little bit, so
perhaps I can offer some experience on what the women I've dated actually
think about being a virgin at this age when the other factors are removed.

The women I've been seeing and dating recently have varied opinions about it,
as you'd expect.

One woman had a very negative opinion of anyone who was still a virgin beyond
their mid 20s (even her female friends). We knew each other very well so I can
say that she was looking for experience, did not want to have to "train"
someone, etc. I had to stop seeing her for other reasons (read: run) before
this particular "I'm a virgin" conversation ever took place though. I imagine
it would have gone poorly.

Another woman I'm actively seeing simply does not care about my being a
virgin. At all. This isn't uncommon.

Another thinks it's "admirable" (I think partly because I told her the same
thing I said in the 3rd paragraph). That reaction isn't too uncommon either in
my experience.

In my experience (n = < 20), some women will care (a lot, and reject you for
it), some won't. It isn't going to be a problem with everyone, and as long as
you aren't clueless (educate yourself...) and don't think sex is exactly like
porn, it will just be slightly awkward rather than a total nightmare for both
of you.

------
pramalin
Someone like him would be treated as a most eligible bachelor in Indian
circles. I know an American girl who is happily married to an Indian she
selected through online matrimonial sites. Considering Indian's family values,
that may be a good option for him as well.

------
_throw_away_321
23-year-old virgin reporting in for HN statistics.

------
parag_c_mehta
Seriously buddy you are missing out on a lot of fun!

------
andyl
My $.02 - drop the expectations and the mental self-talk. Just do it. Have fun
and give your partner respect and compassion, no matter what, whether your
time together is short or long. Repeat. Learn by doing.

------
NYCHacker
Are there a lot of virgins on here or something? Why is this on the front
page?

~~~
codexon
Well let's see.

\- The surplus of males in Silicon Valley is a rather well known thing. NYC
has the opposite problem.

\- CS/Engineering majors also have this problem.

\- Many in the tech industry label themselves as having aspergers.

There's a startup trying to take advantage of this problem.

[http://blogs.marketwatch.com/themargin/2014/03/07/dating-
sta...](http://blogs.marketwatch.com/themargin/2014/03/07/dating-start-up-
wants-to-fly-new-york-women-to-san-francisco-to-meet-guys/)

~~~
NYCHacker
I'm not saying it's not an issue. I just didn't find the article informative
in any way.

And I was jokingly poking fun at the HN community, which obviously seemed to
hit home to a lot of people.

I think it's a fascinating issue. Personally I would never move to the Bay
Area mainly due to the huge imbalance in male/female ratio.

Not that NYC is heaven in terms of dating/sex life. I definitely don't get
laid left and right. But at least the opportunity is there if I so chose to
pursue it (which unfortunately since I'm a dude, involves work. I wish I could
just set up an OkCupid profile and filter out a maxed-out inbox of requests).

~~~
codexon
The weather is much nicer in the Bay Area, and people don't look down on you
if you are living on ramen while your investment bank buddies are raking it
in.

------
TEENEE
In a day of age full of diseases ...go out and get laid is bad advice! Self
love is the best advice and safest! To learn about your own likes and pleasres
to teach to a partner in love and with mutual respect!

