
The Amazon worker: paid £18,000 a year to shift 250 items an hour - open-source-ux
https://www.theguardian.com/money/2018/jan/20/amazon-worker-warehouse
======
maxxxxx
When we celebrate entrepreneurs like Bezos we should also keep in mind that
this success comes on the backs of a lot of people who work in bad conditions.
These people are invisible to us. Amazon could easily afford to hire more
people for the workload but instead they choose to squeeze everything out of
existing employees.

~~~
fao_
> When we celebrate entrepreneurs like Bezos we should also keep in mind that
> this success comes on the backs of a lot of people who work in bad
> conditions.

Is there a case where this is _not_ true? Capitalists are all the same:
Ignoring other's suffering to make a profit.

~~~
jotm
No, there isn't. Which is why average workers openly supporting rich people
and dissing Health and Safety rules surprise me. They're there for your own
protection, created by decades of hard work by hard workers who know how easy
it is to get fucked by a company.

~~~
jimmywanger
Yet most of us probably wear textiles made in a mill in Bangladesh and use
electronics manufactured in East Asia at a huge environmental cost.

The only thing you're doing by supporting "Health and Safety" laws is
offshoring suffering.

The only way to stop the cycle is to consume less, but that seems to be a
foreign concept.

~~~
jotm
I'm specifically thinking of forklift drivers and factory workers. I've been
around them when HSE was auditing, and they were openly mocking them for
telling them to wear their goggles. Why?

Can't say anything about other countries, since there's so much shit at home,
they need to take care of their own...

But yeah, they also buy the latest shit (on credit), and when asked why,
there's no good answer. I use my stuff until it's completely dead, and even
then it's fixable. If everyone did it, maybe we'd get rid of planned
obsolescence, which is an insane, but sadly profitable concept.

~~~
walshemj
Not sure why wearing goggles when driving a fork lift improves h&s.

The trouble is there tends to be a one size fits all h&s I see track side
workers wearing hard hats and the failure modes for accidents tends to be
things like runaway trucks not heavy objects falling on your head.

I have also seen all the local bus drivers wearing high vis vests for no
reason - I could see having one the bus in case it breaks down and they have
to get out and put out hazard signs but when I have seen busses broken down
they don't do that.

------
albertgoeswoof
In other words, if you do a job that requires no education, training or
experience, you get paid a low wage.

This guys comes across as really entitled, he’s 24 years old, lives at home
and doesn’t spend any of his money anyway. He even claims he’s “stuck” because
he’ll lose his benefits if he quits.

Why am I supposed to feel sorry for him? His life is pretty sweet.

~~~
foepys
> His life is pretty sweet.

No, it is absolutely not. I cannot see how being forced to live with one's
mother, unable to quit the current job to get higher education is "sweet".
It's things like these that keep poor people poor and make rich people richer.

What happens if he wants to start a family? It's impossible to responsibly
raise children in those conditions if he doesn't do it with someone that is a
lot better off than him. Social mobility is quite hard for men, so the chance
is very slim that his children will not grow up poor, too.

~~~
guskel
>What happens if he wants to start a family?

I mean, that's not really something you're entitled to.

~~~
eponeponepon
Quite the statement there - you're saying that any given organism is not
entitled to at least attempt to fulfil its entire purpose?

------
ersiees
(i) I think as pointed out in the last paragraph, the state is as guilty as
Amazon in letting something like this happen. If Amazon would not bring
workers to the legal/market limit. There would be another company to pick at
here. (ii) No corporation cares about being ethical correct. Companies only
purpose is to generate (more) profits and this can be even more easily
(without moral burdens) achieved if (like in big corporations) there are a lot
of layers of abstraction between the decision makers view and the workers
view. (iii) I think if Amazon would be a nice company something like this
would not happen.

~~~
jimmywanger
> the state is as guilty as Amazon in letting something like this happen.

Higher wages and regulations mean fewer jobs. With automation the way it is
and is progressing, more laws and regulations are counterproductive.

~~~
tonyedgecombe
We have had a minimum wage in the UK for a long time now and it hasn't
resulted in the increased unemployment many predicted.

------
blubb-fish
I stopped buying from Amazon about a year ago for the following reasons:

\- too many fake reviews

\- unclear geographic origin of sellers (twice accidentally had to wait couple
weeks for items to arrive from China)

\- too many counterfeit products

\- obnoxious Prime services being imposed on me

\- Prime Video is so far below Netflix in comparison - regarding any aspect -
it's not even funny

\- many stories of Amazon bullying customers

\- too many items that have been obviously previously returned and been badly
repacked

\- greedy fees are existential threats to publishing houses

\- Amazon abuses its staff

\---

and now the interesting insight. getting rid of Amazon is not even close to as
difficult or uncomfortable as banning Facebook from one's life or trying to
buy only fair trade.

it was super simple and not in the slightest an inconvenience. I use idealo.de
for comparing prices and order straight from any of the other hundreds of
shops on there.

------
payne92
Virtually every industry has jobs like this, and many of those jobs are more
physically demanding and much more dangerous. (And in some cases, pay much
less).

People seem happy to complain about warehouse working conditions and pay, yet
give no thought to where their packages, vegetables, fruits, grains, fish,
gas, oil, shrubs, houses, lumber, etc. come from.

------
sixtypoundhound
To be honest, it sounds like he's mildly depressed. Or has lost the will to
keep looking for a better deal.

Having been in the same place, I am reluctant to place the blame on Amazon for
his state - if you don't like your job, look for another one. THAT is very
much on you.

I'm not unsympathetic - I've been in some real hell holes and utter bullshit
situations... but remember your agency, man!

------
paulus_magnus2
£0.04 per item shipped. (220 working days x 8h)

as a customer i'm happy to pay another 4p per item shipped to have workers
only process 125 items/h. But capitalism doesn't work this way. Bezos would
just pocket the 4p and keep squeezing the workers to the max.

~~~
razorunreal
Pretty sure he's not the only worker involved in shipping your item.

------
ggregoire
> I scan the items the trucks bring in from distributors and place them into
> the right cart for the robots to take to the correct place in the warehouse.

I'm actually surprised his job has not been replaced by robots yet.

~~~
dbcurtis
From what I see going on in logistics robotics, I give it two years for
anything shipped in box with a bar code, especially if incoming freight is
palletized.

------
mgiannopoulos
Not many articles on people working tough jobs in mines, farms, etc. What's so
special about Amazon's warehouses?

~~~
walshemj
Its an American company :-) there are far worse warehouse jobs in the Uk.

Though as Jeff owns the WP I thought they would have given him a bye, the
Guardian publish a sleazy piece offering justification of the hacks caught up
in the NI hacking scandal for example.

------
ktzar
The minimum salary in the UK is roughly £12k/year... He's still making 50%
more than the lowest paid employees.

~~~
polshaw
No, it's not.

~~~
walshemj
The Median is £22,044 before tax

------
bluedino
>> now I work such anti-social hours, it’s difficult to meet up.

As your friends finish school and find jobs, some end up on different shifts
and different schedules. Chances are you have things in common with your new
co-workers, socialize with them.

~~~
albertgoeswoof
In this case he does work with robots so I’m not sure this really applies...

------
grawprog
My comments on this article seem pretty heavily disagreed with but here's my
point. He doesn't want to work at amazon, he doesn't want to lose his
benefits. Yet he spends almost no money in rent and does nothing so likely has
a good amount of money saved up. He enjoys painting figurines and such things.
Why not try and find a way to market that skill? It can certainly be done.
Even while keeping his amazon job. Find ways to make money outside work. He
clearly has the time and money to set some goals and put a plan into action.
If he's so unhappy maybe do that? He works 4 days a week. I work 6 days and
manage to fo visit my friend once a week, cook proper meals for myself,
program, play music and have hobbies I enjoy doing. Many of the things he said
were straight up 'I can't be bothered to do this so my life sucks' That is
entirely his choice. Sometimes you have to take chances in life if you're
unhappy. He should have enough money saved up to be able to live off it for a
while. If he's too scared to lose his benefits and pursue what he wants that's
his choice. I would respect him far more if this was a story about how he quit
amazon, tried to change his life and failed than this. Even failure is more
respectable because at least he tried to take his life into his own hands.
This is just a whiny rant about how he's too scared to live life. It's his
life, it's up to him to do what he wants.

------
mrtksn
I was a bit curious about the background of the person in the article so i did
some Googling and it looks like he studied game development at South Essex
College.

I find this interesting, is game development less paid or hard to get employed
kind if a career?

This Amazon job must be a gig to finance him his actual career ambitions I
would guess. It's fairly common for people to work at low quality jobs that
have flexibility to finance their projects or education.

~~~
frou_dh
You underestimate the volume of young people bumbling through all the game-
related college programs. I bet only a minority end up with sufficient
skill/drive to release a real game or have a good industry career.

~~~
walshemj
And gave dev forces you to work a lot longer than 4 ten hour shifts a week.

------
indubitable
According to the article he's putting away 1000 pounds, or about $1400 per
month. Let's imagine he puts all his money into an index fund and they
continue hitting about 8%. He's a millionaire before his 40th birthday, if he
started when he was 18. And that's if he never receives a raise or finds a
better paying job. And at that point he's pulling in $80k a year in
growth/interest alone.

That's not an easy 22 years, but on the other hand that this sort of life
outcome for somebody who's job is basically moving boxes is possible seems
like huge success of our economic system. And that's in the worst case
scenario of him never finding more productive work.

~~~
zenlikethat
Except that he needs to pay to, y'know, eat and have a place to live and all
that other life stuff. I'm assuming he doesn't want to live with his parents
forever, even if they're cutting him a deal. 8% is likely an unrealistic
growth rate anyway.

~~~
indubitable
The $1400 was after he paid for eating/shelter. He's paying his parents $280
for rent - something he could do similarly by hooking up with some roommates.
It's not glorious, yet he has the ability within his grasp to have an economic
state of life that I suspect north of 90% of 40 year olds would trade their
lives for. For a man who moves boxes for a living!

Here [1] is a calculator for investment fund returns. They're quite insane.
Pick the absolute worst period for returns bust to bust 2000 to 2010 and
you're still looking at a positive return. 1990 to present and you're looking
at 10%. 2000 to present, going through both busts, is 6%. 2010 to present is
14%. 8% is not unreasonable - let's say it accounts for him possibly getting a
raise sometime in the next 22 years.

[1] - [https://dqydj.com/sp-500-return-
calculator/](https://dqydj.com/sp-500-return-calculator/)

~~~
zenlikethat
So just live with your parents for 20 years, hope the market goes well, and
you'll be a millionaire? Looking at postings around the area where the worker
lives, an apartment is about 4x the cost of what's he's paying for both rent
AND food ([https://essex.craigslist.co.uk/d/flats-housing-for-
rent/sear...](https://essex.craigslist.co.uk/d/flats-housing-for-
rent/search/apa)). That's not even accounting for unexpected medical expenses,
trying to start a family, etc., and all the other expensive stuff in life.

I'm not even all that sympathetic to the worker in the article, but "just park
all of your money in an index fund and you'll be a millionaire" is quite
naive.

~~~
indubitable
Check AirBNB. And keep in mind those prices can generally be negotiated
sharply downward for longterm stays. He also need not continue to reside in
one of the most expensive [housing] areas in Britain and the world for that
matter. Healthcare in the UK can be provided for by entirely public systems.
If he wanted to start a family he's just doubled his income and we can reduce
the timelines involved in success here by at least ~30% (less than half due to
compound interest being the secret sauce here + he obviously also increases
his expenses in often nonlinear ways) -- even moreso if he finds a partner who
has a more sophisticated skillset than moving boxes.

I think the thing many don't see is that in spite of people continuing to fail
at life we live at a time when it's far easier than ever to succeed. But most
people won't do the ideas espoused here since it requires discipline and
planning. Instead they go drop their paycheck off at the pub, buy all the
latest electronic toys with built in planned obsolescence, and so on. Or he
finally hits $20k in the bank and then decides to go blow it on holiday to
Asia.

------
DougN7
My father always taught me you earn money with your back (unskilled labor),
your mind (skills) or your money (investments). Everyone can do unskilled
labor so supply and demand dictates it will pay less and obviously be more
physically demanding.

Almost everyone can improver their situation by gaining skills/education. It’s
a truism because everyone won’t.

------
UncleEntity
Kind of makes me wonder how many "items" I shifted an hour when my job was to
pull the newspapers off the press in (IIRC) 50 "item" bundles?

For a lot less money too, basically made enough for gas to get back and forth
to community college and some beer/pot now and again -- ah, to be young
again...

------
pmoriarty
Anyone interested in this should listen to this RadioLab episode where a
reporter goes to work as a picker at a fulfillment warehouse:

[https://www.radiolab.org/story/brown-
box/](https://www.radiolab.org/story/brown-box/)

------
bigbrooklyn
I work in an amazon FC (in the US), and not in any leadership roles. I
recently moved to a new state, and I found amazon. I applied and within about
2 weeks I was working. I'm about 5 months in and it's actually decent.

> If I’ve learned anything from doing this job, it’s that money can’t replace
> time. I work four nights a week in an Amazon warehouse near my home

Is this a bad thing ? I'd rather do 4x 10 hour days, than 5x 8 hour days. I
can work my ass off for 4 days and sleep for day 5, and still have 2 days off.
My co-workers seem to like this as well.

> I have to put away each item in 15 seconds or less, and get through 250 in
> an hour, or I’ll be given a warning by a manager. Stepping away from my
> station to, say, get a drink of water can have a big impact on my
> performance.

Amazon has a lot of fulfillment centers. Customer obsession is #1. In order
for customers to get their package on time, amazon needs metrics. A lot of
associates work alone or in a small team, also their is minimal supervision.
Metrics allow for managers and corporate to know many things, including
whether employees are "on-task". The required rate changes in different
departments. If his FC has robotics, then they deal with small items. 250
small items an hour isn't bad. I'm not too sure about his building but I have
all day to make rate. At the end of the day your average rate per hour should
be >= X.

> During my half-hour breaks I rush downstairs to have something to eat. It’s
> stressful – and it definitely affects my health, standing up for hours on
> end. I worry I may pass out if I don’t rest during my meal breaks. I’ve lost
> a lot of weight since I started.

You don't need to rush, at least where I work. It's actually a benefit if you
take your time. You have 30 minutes from the time you clock out, and it's
about a 45 second walk to break rooms. If you feel like your going to pass
out, you should not be working in a warehouse. It can be a workout
environment, depending on where you are placed. However, you will be standing
anytime your not on break, and that can sometimes get annoying.

Amazon provides amazing time-off flexibility through an employee portal. If I
ever feel too tired to work, and I have time-off available, I can just go tell
my manager, HEY IM LEAVING. He says ok (or don't leave, I need you!), and the
ball is in your court.

Amazon provides benefits from day 1, not usually found in warehouses. They
also provide "Variable Pay Compensation". Every month you get a BONUS !
Provided you did not have unscheduled time off, you will get extra money based
on your hours. Peak times just doubles how much you receive. I barely worked
in December, and my vcp for that month is just under $300. You don't need to
do anything special, its always just added to your payout.

One employee can never tell the whole story (including me). Different
buildings with different people in all of them.

------
baxtr
What a sad story. I’ve been thinking about quitting amazon because of these
people. However, it’s just so convenient that I find myself still ordering
stuff there. Maybe, I should reconsider.

------
yorby
sometimes I order stuff from china and I get it in less than 1 week even if it
feels like I don't even pay for shipping, why don't they make more warehouses
overseas? (For example, I ordered a cheap webcam on Aliexpress for $2.50
including shipping... I got it in about 5 days)

------
machiaweliczny
He doesn't have to work there. Why not leave?

~~~
IkmoIkmo
Finding a job with no university degree in Southend is not as easy for him as
you may think.

More importantly, the job likely won't be much better than what he has.

The point isn't so much that the job sucks and that he can find something
else. For me the article says something about the very nature of many 21st
century jobs at 'innovative' 21st century tech companies.

I mean, the pay ain't that bad, it's quite similar to median daily wages in
the US for example. The issue is that he's working with robots, doesn't talk
to people or even his parents, is unable to keep up a social life, sleeps
during his off-time and is basically miserable.

Now what do you think happens when he leaves that job? Someone else will take
his place. Maybe at a marginally higher rate, if enough people are reluctant
to take the job. But inherently, that's not a job we should be having in one
of the richest countries on the planet. There's no issue with menial labour,
but we surely must be able to design our work/life balance better than for
people to lose interaction with other human beings, losing passion for their
hobbies, sleeping their time on this earth away when they're not working like
a robot.

~~~
zaroth
There’s other job that this guy (and many others like him) are qualified for.
I’d rather he shuffle boxes than just get UBI and contribute nothing.

Ideally he would shuffle boxes the mandatory minimum work hours required to
keep his government benefits and spend an _additional_ 40 hours a work
studying & training for something better paying.

Career advancement isn’t going to be handed to you on a fucking silver
platter. This guy has a good life and works is fairly safe and low stress
conditions, is paid fairly, and isn’t trying terribly hard to become better.
What else was I supposed to take away from the article?

------
grawprog
Ok...so...he described what it's like to have a job. And...

I'm not understanding the point of this. It's too bad his job sucks and he's
discovered working takes your free time and joy for life. I will take my tiny
violin and play him some Fallout Boy and Greenday covers while he cries for
me.

