
Why Are Women Under-Represented in Physics? - andrenth
https://quillette.com/2019/04/16/why-are-women-under-represented-in-physics/
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neya
I'm not saying this to stir up some kind of controversy. But, I think it's
wrong to silence him simply because we don't agree with him. He presented
data, some efforts to support his view points. This is far better than
fuelling hatred and bigotry just by providing opinions.

For instance, this person who wrote this article titled ("Why can't we hate
men?") is actually a gender studies professor (now a director?) in a well
known top university in Boston and still has their job:

[https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/why-cant-we-hate-
men...](https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/why-cant-we-hate-
men/2018/06/08/f1a3a8e0-6451-11e8-a69c-b944de66d9e7_story.html)

But we are offended and want to silence someone and fire them for providing
atleast reasonable data to back his claims?

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tagrun
> Data show that, at the moment they’re hired in research or academic posts,
> female physicists have on average fewer (fractionally counted) papers and
> citations than their male equivalents. As the careers of physicists
> progress, the initial representation gap doesn’t change much, and a second
> difference known as the “productivity gap” appears. This was confirmed by my
> data.

I can confirm this does happen based on my limited observations. Some people
get hired at the expense of candidates which are better by objective measures
of publication, citation and funding records, and those people tend to be
women and/or minority groups. And despite being an unfair practice, it is
encouraged from top and employed.

If there is a sexism/racism problem, I don't understand how more sexism/racism
would solve it. I don't understand how there can be a righteous and endorsed
flavor of sexism/racism.

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basetop
This is an example of where a topics based news aggregation and discussion
would be better rather than article based aggregation and discussion. Instead
of getting one side's story (one article), how great would it be if we had a
"CERN gender topic" and a list of articles about that topic that encompasses
all sides ( and possibly different regions ). Beyond one side or the another,
wouldn't it be interesting to see what indians, chinese, south americans,
africans, etc think of it too? I'm sure this topic is a lot more nuanced and
complex than either side lets on and I feel these issues lend themselves to
topic based aggregation and discussion. Just an opinion.

But whatever side you are on, I think the real issue here is the personal and
professional attacks this academic got for providing an honest opinion (
backed by stats and sources ). The viciousness displayed by his fellow
phycists and CERN as an organization is really disappointing as is their
attempt to silence him. One of the basis of academia is the idea of "devil's
advocacy". Where you or someone takes the other's side in order to getting a
fuller understanding of any topic. How is any discussion possible when the
opposing side is silenced?

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ahelwer
Remember a week ago when this site scoured a public GitHub repo to ensure a
woman physicist wasn't getting more credit than she was due? Imagine having to
conduct yourself in your professional life as though you were under persistent
threat of audit by some know-nothings if you stuck your head up too high. I
would go insane.

~~~
basetop
She wasn't a physicist, she was a computer scientist. Harrassing her was
wrong, but so is what happened to this physicist. Stop trying use her to push
divisions. If you truly cared about harrassment, you'd be just as offended at
what happened to this guy as much as you are about her. Also, people like you
do far more to push women and minorities out of STEM than anything. You are
constantly telling women and minorities what a terrible racist and misogynist
place academia is.

~~~
vkhn
Bro.

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strikelaserclaw
Women are just as smart as men, i don't think anyone can debate this. Are
women just as interested in the same things men are? This is highly debatable.
There are biological differences between men and women.

~~~
yasp
> _All or most of the major tests commonly used to measure intelligence have
> been constructed so that there are no overall score differences between
> males and females. Thus, there is little difference between the average IQ
> scores of men and women. Differences have been reported, however, in
> specific areas such as mathematics and verbal measures. Also, studies have
> found the variability of male scores is greater than that of female scores,
> resulting in more males than females in the top and bottom of the IQ
> distribution._

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_differences_in_intelligenc...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_differences_in_intelligence)

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dev_dull
> _With colleagues, I spent the summer checking the data and exploring ways to
> present them at the workshop that wouldn’t harm our careers._

~~~
IshKebab
Yeah looking at his slides he did a shit job. Some genuinely interesting data
and theories but it's filled with indignant snippets like "not sexism - it's
merit!". The data could _easily_ have been presented in a far less
confrontational and provocative way.

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zpeti
Is it just me or did this thread appear on the front page of HN and rising and
then just disappear into nowhere?

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durovo
Yes, I noticed the same thing. I may not entirely agree with what is in the
article, but I believe that the author deserves to be heard.

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mrguyorama
I think the single most interesting result from this whole thing is that there
is near equal representation of both men and women in the law profession.

I wonder why that is? What was counted as a person in a "Law profession"?
Where support staff and secretaries included? If it was just lawyers, what are
they doing right to get equal representation that everyone else does wrong?

~~~
belorn
It is an interesting question, through I think I suspect the answer has to do
with the values that profession provides to the employee. In many studies we
see a gender difference in men valuing high pay over other aspects in work
place, and women valuing social respect and a feeling of helping more than
high pay. The legal profession, and I suspect pro-bono lawyers in particular,
provide tends to a value of respect and being helpful, while high profile
cases brings in the high pay. It would not surprise me if men and women would
give very different answer in surveys on why they entered the legal
profession.

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chopin
Interesting article but it eludes me what his bibliographical research found
other than gaps which where already known. I fail to notice where he differs
from mainstream based on results his research found.

To be clear I don't like stifling discussion with non-scientific arguments
either (which the author accuses CERN of). But imho the article fails to bring
his arguments across other than "I was attacked on unscientific grounds". If
he bases broader male variation on observations of citation indexes I think
this is a poor measure as citation indexes favor the incumbents very much. A
problem which also male newcomers have trouble with.

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apta
Why are women underrepresented in construction, police force, military, etc.
Why are men underrepresented in day care, nursing, etc.

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rekabis
This is a glorious example of where the truth is hated simply because it’s
inconvenient and utterly fails to support the sociopolitical narrative.

The reaction of the far-leftists to evidence like this is what has pushed me
clear out of the left and into centrism. I will never become a conservative
(that philosophy has even more patently bankrupt ideas it still desperately
clings to), but I cannot consider myself “of the left” anymore. I simply
cannot abide those levels of toxicity and religious-like ideology against
which any dissent is heresy to be punished and crushed.

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lumberjack
If he had acted with more tact, he could have avoided the outcry. His
presentation was not at the right time nor place. Then going public (although
he's not the only one at fault here) made things worst. You cannot do science
in the public sphere. It speaks for itself that he was quickly embraced by
anti-intellectual political factions.

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return0
why would he present the results in an academic conference anyway? Those are
archaic gatherings with extreme social/political biases and nothing good ever
came out of them (i ve been in quite a few). not a very smart academic

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NoblePublius
Why did this get flagged?

