
Microsoft Employees Protest Work with ICE - rqp
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/19/technology/tech-companies-immigration-border.html
======
dang
All: debate is one thing; egregiously breaking the site rules because you feel
strongly about something is another. If you can't stick to the guidelines,
please don't comment here.

[https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html](https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html)

------
Nicksil
>... [We] recognize the grave responsibility that those creating powerful
technology have to ensure what they build is used for good, and not for harm.

I don't read hear or read this sentiment nearly as often as I would like.

Good on these folks for stepping up.

~~~
modzu
+1. and its a great idea to do as an open letter. let's hope it spreads

~~~
downandout
How is it a "great idea" to protest enforcement of our own laws?

~~~
evanlivingston
Laws can be unethical? Protesting Jim Crow laws was a good thing?

~~~
downandout
It’s unethical to require people from other countries that want to enter the
US to follow certain, well established, legal protocols before they enter?

I’m all for _legal_ immigration. I guess I just don’t understand all the
support for _illegal_ immigration.

Edit: based on the downvotes, there must be some kind of benefit to the US
arising from illegal immigration that I’m missing. Could one of you that
downvoted this please explain that benefit to me?

~~~
jaredklewis
> It's unethical to require people from other countries that want to enter the
> US to follow certain, well established, legal protocols before they enter?

The contents of letter state that it is a reaction to the recent news that
babies and toddlers of immigrants crossing the border illegally are being
separated from their parents in the hundreds. We have no evidence that these
parents have been charged with violent or other crimes of a nature that might
justify the separation for the children's safety.

In no way does the letter assert that it supports illegal immigration, as I
think your comment suggests. Rather, the letter accuses ICE of inhumane
treatment of children in a way that violates international law.

So the letter cosigners might very well be strongly against illegal
immigration. I am strongly against homicide, for instance. That being said, I
would like our prisons to treat convicted murderers in a humane way. Just
because I am against murder, it doesn't mean I want prisoners to be water
boarded or starved or what have you.

~~~
downandout
_babies and toddlers of immigrants crossing the border illegally are being
separated from their parents in the hundreds. We have no evidence that these
parents have been charged with violent or other crimes of a nature that might
justify the separation for the children 's safety._

When parents commit crimes, they are going to wind up being separated from
their children. This is a consequence of breaking the law - you commit a
crime, and then you go to jail. Your children can’t be with you in jail, so
you get separated. The evidence that they have committed a crime in the case
of illegal entry is by default - they couldn’t be arrested by the US border
patrol unless they violated the law, because the US border patrol doesn’t
arrest people in Mexico, they arrest them in the US.

So, in order to support these parents not being separated from their children,
you have to support not prosecuting people for illegally entering the country.
That, by definition, means you have to be in favor of illegal immigration.

~~~
maxerickson
Sure, lots of people actually are in favor of the sort of illegal immigration
where if people seek asylum they are not prosecuted for the misdemeanor border
crossing at least until their asylum application is rejected (and maybe they
just aren't prosecuted).

But why would the "greatest" country in the world use any nuance when dealing
with vulnerable people, right, nuance is for rich people and their powerful
lawyers, not for people fleeing death.

I dare you to be specific when you make your arguments about law and order.
Own the specifics. Proper procedure is a very important part of seeking asylum
and all that. Don't hide behind words like "commit crimes" and "violated the
law", actually say "misdemeanor border crossing".

~~~
downandout
Are misdemeanors not crimes? The term misdemeanor simply means that it is a
crime punishable by up to 364 days in prison. Further, illegal _reentry_ is a
felony, and in many of these cases, it’s reentry.

~~~
maxerickson
Nothing in my comment prompts your question, I don't even come close to
denying that misdemeanors are crimes.

My point is that bloviating about law and order when the crime is minor and
the danger (in many cases) is real, is pathetic. It'd be less pathetic to make
it clear that you think that babies should be taken away from mothers that
have merely crossed the border away from an official port of entry.

~~~
downandout
_It 'd be less pathetic to make it clear that you think that babies should be
taken away from mothers that have merely crossed the border away from an
official port of entry._

When did I say that? I just think that mothers shouldn’t be bringing their
babies to illegally enter the country in the first place.

~~~
EGreg
I say this as a liberal. So the US government:

1\. Incarcerates people for the victimless “crime” of taking drugs

2\. Takes away their kids and sticks them in foster homes or worse

3\. Enriches drug gangs in Mexico thru criminalizing their competition in the
US

4\. Catches families trying to escape the gangs by coming to the US for asylum

5\. Punishes the kids for yet another victimless crime of crossing the US
border

I would like to ask the Christian child-loving, Bible-following voters:

Is America great yet?

------
ve55
>Microsoft has been positioning itself as tech’s moral leader. Mr. Nadella and
Microsoft’s president, Brad Smith, have publicly said they want to protect
user privacy

Hard to take this seriously given what Windows 10 and other new microsoft
products subject users to.

~~~
modzu
^ turn off cortana and windows starts to fall apart in strange and subtle ways
(ie no more local search index)

~~~
tinalumfoil
With or without Cortana windows 10 search is horrible. The fact that XYZ will
come as the first result for XY but will _dissapear_ when you search XYZ is
the noticeably horrible ux I've seen since the Zune.

~~~
zeusk
That's fuzzy search for you, finder has had this since 10.10 afaik.

------
ProfessorLayton
I think it's fantastic that highly coveted employees use their status to
influence the companies they work for. As the imbalance of power between
employers and employees continues to widen, It is one of the few levers we
have as tech workers.

I have a list of companies that I won't consider working for due to their
current or past behavior that completely go against my morals, even if it
means I miss out on a few $$. I relish the fact that If the company I
currently work for became something I no longer want to support, I could jump
ship extremely easily compared to the typical American worker.

If the company wants to attract and keep their talent, they _have_ to listen
to them.

------
dilippkumar
If only legal immigration reform had this much political attention...

~~~
izendejas
I appreciate that legal immigration (as if people doing so illegally didn't
wish this was an option for them, also) is an important issue for you, but
other people matter, also.

The kids aren't doing so well right now. You or anyone you care about are not
being detained away from family, so let's at least be thankful for that. This
to me isn't even a political issue, it's a human rights issue. And to top it
off you have an administration that is flat-out lying every chance they get,
contradicting themselves in pathetic ways.

------
duxup
I worked for companies who worked with intelligence services and military. I
had no major issues. Concerns maybe but it's hard to know the details and bad
things happen in war no matter what... so I didn't really think much of it.

The whole thing with ICE separating children from families, targeting folks
with minor past misdemeanors.... it's all so strangely overtly immoral and
unnecessary. I could see taking a stand there.

~~~
thirdsun
> The whole thing with ICE separating children from families, targeting folks
> with minor past misdemeanors

It's my understanding that they apply this horrible policy to any asylum
seeking family - no misdemeanors required.

~~~
slavak
The very act of crossing the border is a misdemeanor, and thanks to Jeff
Sessions' "Zero Tolerance" policy, almost every adult is being prosecuted,
even if they are not dangerous and even if they apply for asylum.

In other words: A misdemeanor is still required. If you do not have a
misdemeanor available, one will be provided for you.

[https://www.vox.com/policy-and-
politics/2018/6/19/17475326/f...](https://www.vox.com/policy-and-
politics/2018/6/19/17475326/family-separation-border-patrol-visual-explainer)

------
stolson
Good on them. Companies like Palantir have thousands of people building these
types of systems, it's nice to know there are peers of ours standing up those
less privileged.

------
patrickg_zill
It would be entirely expected and likely, that were MSFT to cancel their ICE
contract, that many other parts of the Federal government would leave MSFT's
services.

After all, they too would be only 1 media dustup away from having to deal with
finding another vendor suddenly.

~~~
anigbrowl
That's a lot easier said than done. Microsoft might decide to look ahead to a
time when Trump is not in office. Are the short-term gains worth the long term
reputational damage?

~~~
patrickg_zill
They bought Skype and turned over the keys to it, to the NSA. Did it seriously
hurt their reputation?

They added telemetry which can't be easily disabled, to all parts of Windows
desktop OS - did that seriously hurt their reputation?

Supposedly they sell stuff to the DIA, DoD and NSA - what is the long term
reputational damage from that?

They sell stuff to police departments, like the Ferguson police that
(allegedly/from one point of view) shoot dead black men - any feedback from
that?

~~~
anigbrowl
For all we know it's this pattern of behavior that has motivated this current
pushback by Microsoft staff. I'm sure you're aware that some political issues
attract wider attention than others, and that while people rarely march in the
streets to protest the NSA the same is not true of other agencies.

------
gremlinsinc
If I had the money, I'd start a non-profit who's goal is to get tech
companies, and localities to boycott ICE, NSA and unethical government
initiatives. Though, I guess EFF kind of does a lot of that. But, I wouldn't
mind devoting all my time to that sort of thing instead of coding all day. :P

~~~
rqp
Tech Workers Coalition

~~~
gremlinsinc
Looks cool.. googled link if anyone's interested:
[https://techworkerscoalition.org/](https://techworkerscoalition.org/)

~~~
confounded
A very friendly bunch, often free beer and pizza!

------
dmode
I was lukewarm towards the rights of undocumented immigrants prior to Trump.
But his actions in dehumanizing a whole class of people who are desperate for
help and support as "criminals" have changed my views. As a father, the
screams of children being separated from their parents is haunting. I hear the
cries of my own daughter. I can't even begin to imagine her trauma if someone
forcibly separated her from me. This is barbaric and inhumane at such a
fundamental level that I know how anyone can support this.

~~~
emodendroket
What's more, according to the former head of ICE, many of these children will
never be reunited with their parents. It is a cruel policy with no purpose
beyond being cruel.
[https://mobile.twitter.com/JProskowGlobal/status/10091199153...](https://mobile.twitter.com/JProskowGlobal/status/1009119915348021249)

------
dionian
Doesnt ICE answer to the President and the laws written by Congress? Is
hurting ICE meant to influence the decision making of the Trump admin, and if
so, how effective might this move ultimately be?

~~~
petee
Its not about hurting ICE, its about being decent human beings. ICE will be
ICE regardless, but Microsoft doesn't have to be complicit, and its employees
don't want to be either.

That said, if ICE can't find a single company to buy services from, it will
reverberate up the food chain

------
CMay
Who says Microsoft isn't doing more good than harm by helping ICE? ICE will do
their job regardless of the tech they use and for all we know, Microsoft is
helping ICE reduce mistakes which would otherwise harm the people that ICE
needs to manage.

People in general need to be more pragmatic, because we see a lot of emotional
reactions which only make things worse.

~~~
emodendroket
I always find this argument unconvincing. At its most extreme expression you
end up with obviously bogus propositions like "Islamic terrorism is going to
happen with or without you, so you might as well join ISIS and attempt to
reform them from within."

~~~
CMay
It's probably unwise in this case to transplant one argument for another and
then make a decision about one based on the other instead of assessing them
independently. ICE is not ISIS. Illegal immigration is illegal just about
everywhere on Earth and for good reason. ICE are simply the enforcement arm of
that legal construct.

Interestingly enough, ICE and the border patrol may further reduce the chance
of ISIS attacks in the US as ISIS explicitly stated they wanted to hide among
undocumented migrants to sneak into countries at a larger scale.

Life is messy and sometimes the solutions have to be too. It's a great place
for software to try to keep things as clean as possible.

------
brokenmachine
I'm not American. Could someone please explain concisely what the controversy
about ICE is?

~~~
tmpz22
Immigration laws were passed in America over the past few decades without
proper accounting for either the moral implications or the practical
enforcement of the laws themselves. Very recently the current administration
put pressure on law enforcement to follow closer the letter of the law, and
being unprepared to do so many government agencies (Immigration and Customs
Enforcement), resulting in unethical action such as separating a large number
of immigrant children and placing them in under-provisioned detention centers
like prisoners.

Both major political parties have used the situation to attack the others, the
conflict itself being a large historical talking point in US politics on all
levels, local, state, and federal.

------
JuicyCanvas
found this list of all ICE employees :
[https://rcombs.me/static/ice/linkedin/](https://rcombs.me/static/ice/linkedin/)

------
RcouF1uZ4gsC
[https://www.geekwire.com/2017/microsoft-plans-triple-
azure-c...](https://www.geekwire.com/2017/microsoft-plans-triple-azure-cloud-
computing-capacity-china-next-six-months/)

[https://blogs.windows.com/windowsexperience/2017/05/23/annou...](https://blogs.windows.com/windowsexperience/2017/05/23/announcing-
windows-10-china-government-edition-new-surface-pro/)

[https://www.reuters.com/article/us-microsoft-china-
insight-i...](https://www.reuters.com/article/us-microsoft-china-insight-
idUSKBN0UE01Z20151231)

[https://www.engadget.com/2018/02/22/china-xinjiang-
surveilla...](https://www.engadget.com/2018/02/22/china-xinjiang-surveillance-
tech-spread/)

[https://thenanfang.com/search-engine-bing-com-featuring-
skew...](https://thenanfang.com/search-engine-bing-com-featuring-skewed-
results-china/)

[https://aawsat.com/english/home/article/1166416/microsoft-
fo...](https://aawsat.com/english/home/article/1166416/microsoft-fosters-
drive-implement-giant-projects-saudi-arabia)

[https://www.mmtimes.com/news/microsoft-seeks-expansion-
oppor...](https://www.mmtimes.com/news/microsoft-seeks-expansion-
opportunities-banking-sector.html)

Will the new "moral" Microsoft now cut its ties and end its contracts with the
Chinese government and Saudi Arabia? After all, they should not be supporting
governments that abuse human rights. How about Myanmar, which is actually in
the middle of carrying out a real life genocide?

~~~
izendejas
Why not? Take 'em one at a time. And let's start with our backyard because why
not, it's easier to see the damage.

Your rationale seems to be: Microsoft is not consistently moral, so they
should not take any moral stances. Well, then, I hate to break it to you, but
progress is suuuuuper slow. That doesn't mean we never seek it.

------
kojon99
I’m not American and I’ve always found it fascinating how a part of the
American population defends the existence of illegal immigrants in American
soil. It’s crazy.

~~~
i_dont_know_
I think you're getting it very wrong; this isn't about people saying "let's
just allow illegal immigrants the full rights of legal immigrants". There are
some people saying that, but they're a small minority.

This is about saying "some people have come here illegally. let's not
psychologically torture their children for it" You can be for legal migration
and the humane treatment of people at the same time.

~~~
koolba
What’s the alternative? Anyone else that commits a crime and is imprisoned is
separated from their family and children. Why should illegal immigrants get a
pass?

~~~
dashundchen
There are asylum seekers, including those applying at ports of entry, being
separated from their children.

These children are being ripped from their parents and kept in literal cages
in warehouses.

[https://twitter.com/DemWrite/status/1008939085384126464](https://twitter.com/DemWrite/status/1008939085384126464)

I don't think that is happening in your scenario.

~~~
fareesh
The asylum backlog is 600,000 cases. They are not aslyum seekers, they are
trying to take advantage of the backlog since under the earlier process they
could just wait for their court date and disappear into the country before
that. Asylum requests have gone up over 1000% because this exploit has been
figured out and it is now the default method of gaining entry. 83% of the kids
aren't even with their parents, they are posing as families. Only 2000 kids
out of 12000 are actually with their parents. Kids can be held for upto 20
days maximum during which time they arrange for someone for them to stay with
- mostly a family member.

The Mexico visa is a lot cheaper than the whole process to get a US green
card. I would not be surprised if this becomes the preferred method for many
seeking a life there.

~~~
noobermin
I think you are over estimating the consciousness of people seeking asylum, I
don't know how they could be aware of the backlog of cases.

------
Wrongthink
The media is really pushing this child parent separation thing hard. This is
nothing new. You commit a crime, you get separated from your child when you're
arrested. Every crime is this way citizen or not, the child does not go to
jail with the parent.

But that is not what they want. They want the parent to be freed under the
guise of the child's rights. There is no sugar coating it, this is a desparate
attempt to curb immigration enforcement because the far left is desparate to
grow their voting base. They have to import voters from the third world
because their agenda is becoming so extreme they are alienating their own
native voters.

Really sad that politics is being peddled on this website, thinly veiled
behind vaguely tech-related discussion. If I want my leftwing political
propaganda I'll read reddit thank you very much.

------
mozumder
This is like when IBM built and sold tabulating machines to the Nazis to help
the Nazis record people killed during the Holocaust.

Microsoft: do you want people to eventually reference you in the future in
this way?

------
shiado
It is interesting that this is where some people draw the line of unethical
behavior for Microsoft of all corporations.

------
megaman22
Microsoft has something like 125,000 employees. 100 isn't even a rounding
error.

~~~
Covzire
In a week or so there will be something else for the MSM to outrage everyone
about, using yet another extremely one-sided angle about some other policy
that started long before Nov 2016. I simply cannot watch/read mainstream news
anymore, it's such a joke. You're being lied to and manipulated on a daily
basis. Weekly periodicals are the last best source of any kind of non-
technical information, and maybe technical too in some cases.

~~~
threeseed
It was never an enforced policy to seperate children from the parents.

~~~
Covzire
Then why was the photo that sparked the latest outrage reported as being
recent, when it was taken during the previous administration?

And what do you do with children at the border when they're not accompanied by
a parent or even a relative, such as child traffickers?

~~~
lern_too_spel
> Then why was the photo that sparked the latest outrage reported as being
> recent, when it was taken during the previous administration?

There was no one photo that sparked the recent outrage. I don't even know what
photo you are referring to.

> And what do you do with children at the border when they're not accompanied
> by a parent or even a relative, such as child traffickers?

Those children aren't with their parents to start with, so a change in policy
on separating children from their parents does not affect them.

------
casefields
After the Google AI pull out and now this it’s starting to inch pretty close
to the inmates running the asylum.

------
ginger123
In my opinion, for decades politicians of this country tacitly allowed people
to come to this country without adequate paperwork. Now asking them to go back
is impractical and cruel. People who are here should be able to conduct their
lives without the fear of getting arrested or deported while conducting
everyday activities like going to dropping their kids to school or commuting
to work. Let us be compassionate and give everyone already here a path to
citizenship.

Just like President Obama did for DACA there should be a cutoff date for a
path to citizenship. Once the cutoff date is reached we should deport new
undocumented immigrants who don't have a legitimate asylum claim.

~~~
nickwalton00
Honestly I'm fine with people who illegally immigrated to just have a chance
to square themselves with the law and be legal without a path to citizenship,
then giving citizenship to their children. They did break the law so I think
it's fair to have consequences. But they don't need to be afraid of getting
deported from the place they've lived the last 20 years.

------
RickJWagner
There's a finite amount of money available for social programs. It's a zero
sum game.

The more new immigrants that require resources, the less available for other
underprivileged folks.

Be careful how you acquire your social 'feel good' points. It might be hurting
someone.

~~~
izendejas
Let's start with the allocation problem before we get into the scarcity issue.

We're perfectly ok spending millions to pay for bombs. And we were perfectly
okay with funding dictators in Central America, for example, all of which led
to crises in those countries which led to mass migration. And now here we are.

And btw, Nicaragua -- the same country where contras where illegally funded by
the Reagan administration to combat the socialists there -- is now again close
to civil war. Their socialist leader (Ortega) gets to use the US as a
scapegoat (much like Chavez in Venezuela) and his loyal followers buy that
stuff. Frankly, many people still remember what the US did in those countries,
so I don't entirely blame them.

So now tell me why you're worried about social programs when our military
takes the pie in spending and that clearly hasn't been put to good use?

------
downandout
Could someone help me understand the issue with this whole thing? If you show
up to commit a crime with your children in tow, you are going to wind up
separated from them while you go to jail for that crime. That is as true for
illegal entry as it is for bank robbery.

Why does the Valley feel that it's OK for immigration laws to be violated?
Even very liberal countries around the world tend to be tough on illegal
immigration. Why are we expected to put up with it in the US? I'm not trying
to cause a big political discussion - I'm genuinely trying to understand how
intelligent, tax-paying US citizens have arrived at this position.

Edit: So just downvotes then, no explanations or justifications for your
positon. Got it. You're the best HN!

~~~
cycrutchfield
It’s illegal to apply for asylum?

~~~
IanDrake
It’s not, but sneaking into a country is different than walking into a border
checkpoint or embassy to request asylum.

~~~
ceejayoz
Not where the US Code is concerned.

[https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/8/1158](https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/8/1158)

> Any alien who is physically present in the United States or who arrives in
> the United States ( _whether or not at a designated port of arrival_ and
> including an alien who is brought to the United States after having been
> interdicted in international or United States waters), irrespective of such
> alien’s status, may apply for asylum in accordance with this section...

~~~
AndrewKemendo
Thanks for the link, however the sub-sections are very important because
subsection (a) and (e) are exactly what the Attorney General are arguing on
top of if I understand correctly.

In this case the Atty General could claim that it is in the public interest to
take in every unaccompanied alien child (defined as such by law [1]) - however
that means that every child would basically go to the foster system while
their parents were deported. Perhaps that is what is happening, I'm not sure.

In either case, the unaccompanied child and the adult in this case have
different processes that the DOJ and in the case of children Health and Human
Services, have guidelines to follow.

[1]
[https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/6/279#g](https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/6/279#g)

