
How Soylent Auto-Transcribes Phone Calls to Build a Database of Legal Advice - mikeknoop
https://zapier.com/blog/transcribe-phone-calls/
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cyounkins
Wait so they have their conversations with legal listened to and transcribed
by random people at Rev? Considering the things one usually talks with lawyers
about, it may not be super great to share that with random people outside the
company.

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will_brown
Along these lines, in theory allowing a 3rd party to listen to these
conversations waives the attorney client privilege. In practice this would
amount to being able to compel REV to testify about these conversations when
relevant.

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viggity
not if Rev is being paid for their work. Think of it like an english to
spanish translator, a spanish only illegal immigrant can still expect
privilege with their counsel even if translator is there. Just because a third
party is involved doesn't automatically waive privilege, it needs to be a
third party unrelated to the case.

~~~
will_brown
The Courts will look at the precise role of the third party to determine if
the privilege has been waived. Obviously, there is a major distinction in
using a interpreter, when the interpreter is _essential_ [1] to further the
legal representation. Whereas in the Soylent example, REV is not essential to
further the representation, for example the lawyer/client could transcribe the
conversation themselves and are only using a 3rd party for convenience.

[1]State v. Shire, 850 S.W.2d 923 (Mo. Ct. App. 1993) - Because the daughter
wasn’t essential in conveying information to the lawyer and wasn’t reasonably
necessary to protect her mother’s interests, her presence at the meeting
destroyed the privilege.

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ashaikh
This is actually a really bad idea because of attorney-client privilege
issues. By having a third party record the call, Uberconference or Gmail or
Rev or Zapier itself, and it being sent forward to several other services,
Soylent most likely waived any claim of privilege they may have in the event
of litigation.

If you are a company considering doing this I would be very cautious.

I commend the hack, but unfortunately the legal world of ethics isn't moving
as fast as technology.

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jacques_chester
Lawyers typically bill in increments of 6 minutes.

So when I had a question for my lawyer, I spent a few minutes polishing it up
and sent an email. The response was usually billed for one or two increments.

It doesn't require a Rube Goldberg device to turn text into text.

And it turns out that good lawyers are good at writing. It's as central to
their job as coding is to ours.

~~~
p4wnc6
This has not been my experience at all. I've found that a phone call is much
more efficient. If permitted, many lawyers I've dealt with, several of whom
were clearly the best and most professional, would milk an email or text-based
response for quite a lot more, even after being asked to keep it brief.

~~~
jacques_chester
If you feel your lawyer is overcharging you, tell them so, complain to the
local bar and/or find another lawyer.

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p4wnc6
Complaining over this kind of issue to local bar will get you absolutely
nowhere. I did switch attorneys, two or three times, but they all do this and
all assert that all others do it. To boot, in some situations such as family
court, switching attorneys can be and often is taken by the judge as a sign
that you don't have your shit together well enough to hold down an attorney.
Even if you switched for a completely legitimate reason, they can hold it
against you and play favorites with the other counsel. This was especially
true for a family member of mine going through such a circumstance in a small,
rural community where all possible attorneys to hire in the area had close
dealings with all of the judicial staff.

~~~
jacques_chester
OK, you had a bad experience. I've had good experiences. Let's leave it at
that.

~~~
dajohnson89
You've had a good experience,he has had bad experiences. See the difference?
The only way you repackaged the discussion was a cheap maneuver, and
misleading.

Also, his (only anecdotal, blah blah blah) argument took pains to paint a
picture of the entire field/profession using not only his (multiple, to your
one) lawyer experiences but also secondhand accounts of people saying the
entire industry charges a lot for email.

~~~
jacques_chester
> _The only way you repackaged the discussion was a cheap maneuver, and
> misleading._

I object to this. I didn't "repackage" the conversation. I pointed out we had
diverging experiences. Telling someone that their experiences didn't happen
(his or mine) is plainly silly.

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nether
Soylent seems like an ecommerce dev firm with a food product on the side. This
article is more detailed than anything they've released about their actual
Soylent formulation development and testing procedure.

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Animats
That's what bothers me about those guys. Their product testing is
inadequate.[1] Their outsourced fulfillment operation loses orders.[2] They
only do a few sales per minute. No major distributor stocks their product. Yet
they're always talking about how elaborate their computer operations are.

[1] [http://www.theverge.com/2015/8/18/9171521/soylent-
prop-65-la...](http://www.theverge.com/2015/8/18/9171521/soylent-
prop-65-labeling-unsafe-chemicals) [2]
[http://readwrite.com/2014/07/22/soylent-food-replacement-
bad...](http://readwrite.com/2014/07/22/soylent-food-replacement-bad-customer-
service)

~~~
thatswrong0
> Their product testing is inadequate.[1]

Did we read the same article? That article has _nothing_ to do with their
product testing. It has everything to do with Prop 65 and labeling. To quote
TFA:

> But legalities and press releases aside, from a practical health
> perspective, none of this may matter: as Soylent notes, Prop 65's guidelines
> are notoriously stringent, pulling many everyday products into its labeling
> regime — and outside California, there are other more broadly accepted sets
> of lead and cadmium guidelines that the product meets.

...?

> Their outsourced fulfillment operation loses orders.[2]

Present tense.. they _had_ major shipping and supply problems at launch. They
don't seem to anymore.

~~~
DanBC
They didn't put prop 65 stickers on the product, even though the absurdly low
limits of prop 65 required the warning.

That might be because they didn't test the product well enough to detect those
very low levels; or because they think prop 65 is bogus; or because they just
didn't realise it was a thing.

None of those are great for a food product.

(Although I agree the prop 65 labelling is so strict it becomes worthless.)

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fizixer
Just curious. Did they let the lawyers know the call is being recorded (it
might even be illegal not to do so in some states)? and how did the lawyers
react?

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johncoogan
All recorded calls on UberConference begin with an automated message: "This
call is being recorded"

~~~
dajohnson89
Doctors record your health info too.

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jbackus
This is a great post. I'd love to hear more about multistage zaps people use.
I'd also enjoy a post that talked about different zaps that zapier uses in
house.

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joelrunyon
> "That couldn't be further from the truth. We drink Soylent because it gives
> us the time to do other things that we love."

I find this strange that he acts like food is an obstacle (all of the time).
What about the joy of enjoying your food?

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thatswrong0
This again... you can drink Soylent and still enjoy food. You can drink it for
the times when you just need food but don't need to enjoy it.

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joelrunyon
Meal replacements have been around forever. Why is soylent better?

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bosdev
True meal replacements which are suitable for long-term use are not widely
marketed to consumers. They tend to be available only through medical
channels.

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geofft
1\. Why is Ensure unsuitable for long-term use? (It's available at every local
supermarket and drugstore, nutritionally complete, and marketed as being
suitable for exactly this purpose.)

2\. If we're assuming that this is a meal replacement for when you don't want
to eat traditional meals, does it matter if it's suitable for long-term use?

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Retra
"Ensure is intended for supplemental use with or between meals and for interim
sole-source nutrition."

Soylent is a total food replacement; you don't need to eat anything else at
all. It's not supplemental, and it's not interim.

If you're not eating it a lot, then no, there isn't any _need_ for Soylent.

~~~
geofft
Ensure is also intended for complete replacement of meals; they just don't
market that way in the US to the general public. They do to doctors, and
they're more open about this use outside the US. From
[https://ensure.ca/en/faq](https://ensure.ca/en/faq) :

 _For how long can I use Ensure®?? How many servings do I need to consume each
day to meet my daily needs for good health?_

 _Ensure® products deliver complete and balanced nutrition Ensure® products
can be used daily. Individual needs depend on many factors — age, gender,
level of activity, health status. Please consult your health care professional
for details related to your health._

 _Can Ensure® replace a meal?_

 _Yes. Ensure® products are complete and balanced, when used in appropriate
amounts they can be used to replace meals._

Basically, if you're going to do something like switch to Ensure or Soylent or
_anything_ as your sole meal source, talk to your doctor first, but if the
doctor doesn't object, Ensure is as usable for this purpose as Soylent.

~~~
Retra
Yes, it "can replace meals." It can't replace _all_ meals, and that wording
exhibits a good deal of effort trying to hide that fact from you.

What is the appropriate amount of Ensure you'd have to eat in a day to survive
on nothing else, and is that the actual amount recommended for meal
replacement?

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DanBC
This is untrue. Ensure can be, and has been, used as sole source of nutrition.

> that wording exhibits a good deal of effort trying to hide that fact from
> you.

No, that wording is keeping them compliant with stringent regulatory systems.
The fact that Soylent ignores that regulation is a bug, not a feature.

More than one person has pointed out your error. The fact you continue to push
it is dishonest.

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kyleblarson
Didnt have time to read this article. Had friends over and we cooked a nice
meal together and had a very pleasant evening. I like it that way.

