
Ask HN: Are there any tech companies in the Bay Area that offer private offices? - mightykan
I’m wondering if there are any tech companies in the Bay Area that offer private offices to individual non-executive-level employees. I find that I am extremely unproductive in open office workspaces. I can never concentrate due to all the noise and visual distractions. Putting on headphones isn’t an option. Are they <i>any</i> places that offer something like this? Are private offices really such a rarity now?
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shostack
This is my office [1]. Pardon the crappy photo quality.

All employees at SmugMug get a space like this with a door. They aren't
totally enclosed offices per se...the front wall is a metal mesh covered with
giant gorgeous photos on the outside, and they stop about 1' short of the
ceiling, so they might not meet your headphone requirement, but in general
things are quiet. One of my walls has whiteboard paint covering it.

Throughout the day I switch between my chaise and the double monitors on my
desk when I need the screen space. But there's nothing quite like kicking back
with my shoes off after lunch with a cappuccino and knocking things off my
list. I don't think I could ever work in an open floor plan after this.

I usually don't close my door, but if I did I'd have zero visual distractions.
To the contrary, thanks to a helpful decorating budget all new employees
receive, you can make your own zen space (textured wood print wallpaper is
both inexpensive and amazing). We have several open spaces of varying sizes
with couches and such if that is what you'd prefer. Convertible standing desks
are also available for anyone that wants one.

This is the first company I've worked at that seems to get that different
people have different work environment needs, and that focused, complex work
often is best done in a private space you can be comfortable in.

Hope it's alright to plug given the nature of the post but...we're hiring [2].

[1]
[https://goo.gl/photos/caP41XiMfUuFNK1o8](https://goo.gl/photos/caP41XiMfUuFNK1o8)

[2] [http://jobs.smugmug.com/](http://jobs.smugmug.com/)

~~~
beefman
Where are you located? I don't see your address anywhere on your site.

~~~
shostack
Yeah, I can see where people might want to know where they'd actually be
working. We're in the middle of overhauling our jobs site to share a lot more
info and HR confirmed this info is already in the plan :)

Anyway, we're a quick walk from the Mountain View Caltrain stop on Evelyn[1].
We also have a parking lot and bike storage.

[1] [https://goo.gl/maps/VTTWkhRUs3P2](https://goo.gl/maps/VTTWkhRUs3P2)

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cyberferret
I cannot believe that still in this day and age, there is still a belief that
open offices are better for developers?? Joel Spolsky tried to set the record
straight, what, about 15 years ago?

For the record, I don't normally listen to music when programming - I like a
quiet environment. Interruptions are a bane. I have a private office, but as
soon as anyone enters - even quietly, my flow state is broken.

Plus on the flipside, while waiting for a long compile or download, I will
grab one of the guitars sitting in my office and randomly jam away. I am sure
in an open office environment, my co-workers would not appreciate that either.

~~~
pionar
I have a private office (I work from home), but there's a difference between
open offices where EVERYONE in the company is out in one big area and a
separate space for each team.

That's how a team I used to be on was arranged. There was the outside office,
then what was termed the "developer cave", which was a large section of the
office (closed off, with a door!) that housed 5 developers and 3 QA people all
working on the same product.

That's better than private offices (it encourages collaboration), but, doesn't
have most of the downsides of a traditional "open office" (having to overhear
the sales guy making calls all day, and people don't just pop in to ask a
question. A room full of working developers is intimidating. Best to send an
email instead.).

On top of that, we had separate booths (with doors) that were kind of like
phone booths, just enough space for two people, that developers would snag if
they needed to focus.

~~~
bryondowd
My last job had a similar setup, with a developer cave (complete with dim
lighting to disorient visitors) with 5 devs working on the same system. There
were long stretches of quiet time to focus, and a little bit of idle
bullshitting with the opportunity to shoot questions across the room when it
would be faster than looking things up yourself or going through email.

Now I'm sitting in a cube farm, sharing a cube, and listening to
administrative assistants chatter about their children and their health issues
and what they had for lunch all day long. I started coming in hours late and
leaving hours late just so I have a few hours of peace at the end of the day
to get some focused work done. And that's on an 'easier to ask forgiveness
than permission' basis.

I'd kill for a setup like the top comment by shostack, but just getting back
to a cave would be lovely.

~~~
BillAtHRST
>>with the opportunity to shoot questions across the room when it would be
faster than looking things up yourself or going through email

Faster for you, not for the poor slob who has to answer your questions.

~~~
bryondowd
True, but I meant that in context with the idling. In other words, when we're
in a lull in the BSing, it was a good time to toss around a few questions. A
quick "hey, do you happen to know where xyz happens?" can save you ten minutes
and cost someone ten seconds. With a small group of just 5 programmers, it was
easy enough to know when was an appropriate time for speaking and when it
would be best not to disrupt the others.

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jkot
Private offices are common, but not in the Bay

\- It is a form of compensation. Cash/stock is preferred form here. To get
other benefits (private office, remote) look at different place.

\- Office space is at premium, private offices are expensive. Again look
somewhere else.

\- Startup culture is associated with open office. Large corporations are
better with this :-(

\- 'Extremely unproductive' is not an argument. Managers believe that
programmers are equivalent/interchangeable cogs. There is no such thing as 10x
;-)

I would recommend:

\- Block visual distractions as much as possible, 3x30" screen in pivot mode
should do.

\- Move into corner.

\- Invest into big closed studio headphones with amplifier. Not active noise
cancellation, but passive which covers entire ear. I got DT 770 PRO, best
investment I ever did.

\- Get ready for starting your own business and working remotely. I am afraid
it is the only way :-(

~~~
SyneRyder
Any reason why you recommend against active noise cancellation? My Bose QC25s
are still my favorite purchase, combining both over-ear passive cancellation &
active noise cancellation. I even use them when working solo, and was so
freaked out when one pair broke that I bought a second backup pair - Bose
replaced the broken pair free of charge though.

[I realize the OP mentioned that headphones were not an option though.]

~~~
jkot
I personally find active headphones uncomfortable. Large studio headphones are
designed for long term use.

~~~
loco5niner
The reference was not to 'active headphones' (e.g. for running), but to
'active noise cancellation' where an "inverse wave" (inverse to incoming
noise) is played to cancel out sounds. These can be in both in-ear or over-
the-ear form.

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f_allwein
Ah, the ultimate luxury... There is a long discussion on the benefits of
private offices in Peopleware, which says that Microsoft has them (although
this was 1999):
[http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/67825.Peopleware](http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/67825.Peopleware)

Recently, I heard of the "cave and commons" approach, which sounds more like
it could be adopted by hip startups: [https://hbr.org/2013/03/give-workers-
the-power-to-choose-cav...](https://hbr.org/2013/03/give-workers-the-power-to-
choose-cave)

~~~
shoo
i think i've heard of the ideal of commons + private/quiet space too, if i
recall that option is mentioned in peopleware too.

(anecdote: i am currently sitting in low cubicles in the middle of a huge open
plan space, with a couple of neighbouring developers, we're surrounded by
about two rings of people whose jobs involve talking all day. this is okay for
days that descend into endless meetings / firefighting, but pretty nightmarish
for work that involves thinking hard about anything)

~~~
cestith
My company has pretty much everyone in "pods". It's a suite per team with a
conference room off the hallway, surrounded by offices with doors around the
room. There's a TV in each pod with an HDMI cable in conference table for
presentations, meetings, or pair/group hack sessions.

The doors unfortunately aren't the best at blocking loud conversations, but
it's still better than trying to concentrate in a loud cubicle farm.

~~~
joezydeco
I love this idea the most.

I've worked in places where teams have created "war rooms", basically a
commandeered conference room where everyone hunkers down around the table and
gets the project done (this was when I worked on a mechanical device and we
needed to mess with parts and tools).

The benefit of the pod to me is that you can make the closable offices way
smaller (desk, small table, couple of chairs) when the doors are open the
offices become part of the larger project room. The entire project room can
also be closed off for noise, privacy, meetings, stealth, etc.

------
rahelzer
Mentor Graphics has private offices. When our company was acquired by them, I
thought I would really love them. But to my surprise I didn't like how it
changed the culture at all.

Private offices really do make developers more insular. It discourages
communication to a degree I wouldn't have thought it would.

Another aspect which might not be obvious at first is that offices come in
difference sizes, so when somebody comes to your office--or you go to theirs--
you both immediately know your relative positions on the pecking order.

This induces an unwelcome power dynamic. Good ideas come from everywhere, but
its human nature to buy into these symbols of status. "You know how I know I'm
right and you are wrong? My office (and salary) is bigger than yours." Not
necessarily said in as explicit terms as those, but the effect is real and
pervasive.

~~~
wyclif
Offices-with-doors power dynamics may be unwelcome in some company cultures.
But power dynamics are unavoidable. If a company has an open plan work space
or bullpen, the dynamic will be expressed in some other way that might be even
more unwelcome.

~~~
Symbiote
In open plan offices, it would be the person with the nicest window, or
furthest from the door.

~~~
ryanmccullagh
This is an interesting statement. At my job over the summer, I noticed
management had the window seats. Those are the best seats because you can see
the sun and because you can see the city.

------
douche
Agree with the impossibility of working in an open office. There have been a
couple days where I've had to work with everybody else in our conference room
because of renovations to the portion of the office where our offices are.
It's no good, I gave up and went home and worked from there; just too much
distraction and having to be constantly _on_ , since, whether it is rational
or not, it feels like somebody is always watching you.

The panopticon was a design developed to ensure constant surveillance of
prisoners. It doesn't say good things about the status of employees when you
make their workplace functionally equivalent.

------
dijit
I also have the same predicament as you, I simply _cannot_ focus in open
office environments and I'm not even sure why so I can't curb the problem. I'm
not sure if it's a feeling of being watched, or a feeling of uncertainty in my
surroundings... or even if it's the possibility of being surprised/interrupted
from behind.

Eitherway, I'm trying to push the idea of working from home- people aren't
very receptive but after I've shown them I'm a good worker they'll be
surprised when I finally get my wish and suddenly become significantly more
productive.

the alternative of course is smaller offices for 3-6 people, I've only seen
that in one place in my professional life and that was Nokia R&D in Helsinki
where isolating teams was necessary for security reasons.

That was actually really nice.

~~~
bambax
> _the alternative of course is smaller offices for 3-6 people (...) That was
> actually really nice._

Really? In my experience a small office with more than 1 person is worse than
a complete open space (while an office for 1, with a door, is the best).

To be productive I need to not see and not be seen; I feel more anonymous in a
big loud crowd than in a small office with 2 other people who can still speak
to one another or to me, or on the phone, etc.

~~~
dasmoth
It can depend on the situation. There have been a few small offices where I've
felt moderately productive, but looking back they've tended to be filled with
people from across the organisation, working on different things. The "team
office" which I know is the ideal for some is a recipe for high visibility and
unhelpful pressure.

------
robin_hood_jr
IBM still has private offices for many (I hesitate to say most) employees
working in the US. San Jose for a fact has private offices. Occasionally
you'll see two people sharing an office, but even that is fine for the noise
and distraction-free environment you're looking for.

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Haydos585x2
I've been working as a web developer for the past 5 or so years and am yet to
see one that wasn't taken by senior management and even then it's only 2-4 of
them. I don't think real estate companies have many available anymore. I'm
sure it's better for them to say "this is a 100 person open-office" than "this
fits 50 private offices". This is Australia so YMMV in the states.

~~~
bbcbasic
Surely it's up to the business leasing the premises to do the fit out?

~~~
djfergus
Almost always the tenant

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djfergus
Cost wise, seems feasible on a sqft basis (assuming a small office - cubicle
equivalent). And I don't imagine the fit-out would be significant on a long
lease.

Average for bay area is $40/sqft/yr [https://42floors.com/office-
space/us/ca/san-francisco-bay-ar...](https://42floors.com/office-
space/us/ca/san-francisco-bay-area)

Office size data (small office ~100 sqft) [https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-
average-square-footage-of-...](https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-average-
square-footage-of-office-space-reserved-per-person-for-a-technology-startup)

CBRE will have more details with registration:
[https://researchgateway.cbre.com/PublicationListing.aspx?PUB...](https://researchgateway.cbre.com/PublicationListing.aspx?PUBID=1e65af9a-a5bb-48b7-825d-38795ef2897b)

------
draw_down
Pretty rare these days I would say. I remember having them early in my career,
2004-2006 or so. Now I guess we're all Agile, or something. It makes the
Agileness more better if you can hear your coworkers eating and talking about
the game, I guess.

Most places I've worked since, even the CEO didn't have an office so it was
more of an egalitarian thing. (By that I mean the false egalitarianism that's
prevalent nowadays where your boss is your friend, not just your boss.) When
they don't do that, and it's a situation where execs get one and peons don't,
that's pretty tacky and indicative of a company that will be shitty in other
ways IMO.

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codyb
I haven't sat at my desk in probably three or more weeks. I have great
headphones but I prefer to work in silence if I can. Our workplace has plenty
of offices and couchspaces and I just move around (sometimes because I get
kicked out if rooms). Usually I'm with one or sometimes two or three other
engineers. I enjoy that.

I had an office once at a small place but it had no windows. It eventually
drove me a bit crazy, as did working from home one summer where I had windows
but no AC and I'd stick to my chair half the time.

It's tough to find perfection but a mixture of commons plus private works well
for me and may be what you need.

~~~
kayoone
I have worked from home for 5 years and now work in an open plan office and
enjoy it more honestly. I don't really feel less productive and i certianly
feel less alone when i can chat to coworkers from time to time or discuss
development question with my coworkers. I have good headphones when i need to
focus or can also go to one of the meeting rooms or work from home if i really
want to work uninterrupted for a longer stretch. I would definetly consider
myself an introvert but i still enjoy being around other people from time to
time. I think the long time working from home alone really hurt me in some
ways in retrospect.

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kbar13
i'd be happy with a compromise: an office with just my immediate team
members/people I work with regularly. If there are conversations, they will
most likely be relevant. It'll also probably help with bonding.

The worst part about open office: meeting rooms next to desks. I used to sit
in an area with lots of meeting rooms and people talking on their way in/out
of these meetings constantly was killer.

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coldcode
I work at a very large company F50 not in the Bay area and the only people
with offices are managers of various kinds. Our building has cubes of various
quality (mine is closet sized) but our other buildings are mostly open plan
with desk height walls. As a programmer the last time I had an office to
myself was during the dotcom era. Sadly it's not just in the Bay.

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todd8
Maybe I am just imaging it, but for me, background music interferes with deep
sustained thinking. I don't understand how people think playing music in the
background at home or at work does anything positive for intellectual
activity.

Open offices have a similar effect on me, and not infrequently I've been
exposed to both at the same time.

~~~
SamReidHughes
A fun fact is that Jon von Neumann felt otherwise. From Wikipedia:

 _Von Neumann did some of his best work in noisy, chaotic environments, and
once admonished his wife for preparing a quiet study for him to work in. He
never used it, preferring the couple 's living room with its television
playing loudly._

~~~
todd8
Yeah, but what did he know about intellectual activity! :)

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cema
Interesting to see so many different opinions, and experiences. Apparently it
is to a large extent a personal matter.

My experience is that I seem to prefer a mix of available options. For
example, my current office is about 30 miles away from home, and I sometimes
work form home and like it, but then I go to the office and like it too. After
several days of working in the same environment I welcome the change of
scenery.

Also, for the first time in many years, I got a private office, having moved
there from a cubicle. It may be a status symbol more than a convenience, but
it is a convenience for sure. No problem mixing private and public space as
long as I have a choice of both.

------
nathan_f77
At a previous company, we had an office where they built little rooms for
phone calls. Some had desks with chairs, and there was one with beanbags. I
ended up spending some time in those, unless someone needed to make a call
(not too often). I did get tired of the open plan office after a while, but
mostly it was just nice to have some variety and move around.

------
tostitos1979
I spent most of my career in offices with doors, and was excited about being
in an open office. It is definitely more social but it is ridiculously
disruptive. When someone is happy or sad (e.g. when someone leaves, even from
a different group), there is a pretty big disruption that kills productivity
for 30 mins or more. Doors win I think.

------
batbomb
Try one of the national labs :)

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arjunvpaul
Why is wearing headphones not an option? Just curious.

~~~
vibrato
I'm not 30 yet and my headphone use in open plan offices has contributed to
tinnitus. To be effective, the music has to completely drown out
conversations. It's unhealthy.

~~~
mightykan
Yes, this is exactly why headphones are not an option. No headphone I’ve ever
tried is completely able to block outside noise. Some do a decent job but then
my tinnitus kicks in and is maddening.

------
chrisseaton
Yes I think Oracle Labs in the bay area has private offices for all
developers. I even had one as an intern - with a view of Mount Diablo.

~~~
jcmack
Oracle Santa Clara and HQ all have private offices. It was really hard to
leave my office. :(

------
arjunvpaul
Why is wearing headphones not an option?

~~~
moron4hire
One possible reason: long-term exposure, even at low volumes, damages hearing.

------
chrisweekly
>"... headphones isn't an option."

Based on my experience in a very similar situation I'd recommend finding a way
to overcome any barriers to using headphones, then using a pair w/ good noise-
cancelling, and listening to brain.fm. It's remarkably effective.

