
Scott Adams: Your Next Gym - cwan
http://dilbert.com/blog/entry/your_next_gym/
======
patio11
My gym does just the MVP of this, where your RFID wristband gives you data
persistence for workout results. Walk up to machine, swipe wristband, Good
afternoon Mr. Mckenz lets try for 12 reps at 40kg today. ("Who ever heard of
someone with a last name longer than six characters long? LOL" <\- Japanese
programmers are as good on this issue as American ones are.)

A segment of their clientele -- and most at my gym are north of forty -- love
it to death. There is at least one seventy something who brought me over to
his screen to show me his fiftieth gold badge. One is earned for running a
Tokyo marathon. You do the math.

Of course, their main business is still selling the notion of belonging to a
gym.

~~~
samtp
Just curious, what is the name of the gym company?

~~~
patio11
Konami. Yeah, THAT Konami.

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Poiesis
No, no--what's coming first is farmville/foursquare style workouts and
tracking.

"Poiesis is King of the elliptical trainer!" "Achievement unlocked: 200 pound
club" "New badge: Power Hour" "Most consecutive workout days: Poesis (42)"

Add an iPhone app maybe for cardio workout tracking that's harder to cheat.

This would be totally awesome. Maybe stick a leaderboard up on one of the big
screens. Only problem is that it would encourage people to visit the gym,
which is a bit of a problem for the current business model. You might have to
switch to pay per use. Or maybe charge extra for the frequent users? But then
there's a monetary barrier to working out.

I have to ruefully say that if it weren't for the fact that this actually
actively contradicts the current business model, it's a great idea.

It'd at least do well for retention I'd wager.

~~~
patio11
There are so many ways to improve, too. Leaderboards are an anti pattern in
community design because they turn 99% of your customers into losers and
losing is not fun. Instead, you either do leagues or publish individual
successes within friend groups.

After you have achievements longevity awards are like taking candy from a very
wealthy baby. (Only one more month until you get Bronze Boots of Buttkicking!
Do not cancel now. Then next month, they are halfway up a new treadmill.)

~~~
Poiesis
_Leaderboards are an anti pattern in community design because they turn 99% of
your customers into losers and losing is not fun._

Of course. I've always wondered about that. Do you have a source for this
info? I'm not trying to lay on the wikipedia-snark but rather I'd like to see
where to read on social media [anti]patterns.

~~~
patio11
I read about game design. It is sort of like the nicotine patch for the ex-WoW
gamer in me.

See slides 27 ~ 33:

[http://www.slideshare.net/amyjokim/putting-the-fun-in-
functi...](http://www.slideshare.net/amyjokim/putting-the-fun-in-functiona)

~~~
ryanelkins
I actually feel that leaderboards are mostly bad only when there are too many
people participating. With a small enough number of participants they can be
motivating (although they might be better yet if they were opt-in). There are
a subset of people that like to rank themselves and "see how they stack up"
against others. As you mentioned, it can also degrade motivation for others
which is why an opt-in method might work best for something like this.

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Grantmd
I maintain that Blizzard and 24 Hour Fitness could make a lot of money (or at
least get a lot of attention) by installing WoW clients on treadmills,
elliptical machines, etc. When you're logged into the game and using one of
these machines, your player gets a buff that makes it stronger or gains xp
faster. Stop walking on the treadmill and the buff wears off. If they made the
buff valuable enough, they'd sell a lot of gym memberships to people that
would otherwise never set a foot in one -- and maybe some people would lose
some weight too.

~~~
Tangurena
Hmm, this is an interesting idea. Perhaps instead of making the buff wear off,
make things available for the next time you are "in game" as it would be
rather risky trying to play the game while walking on a treadmill, bike or
eliptical machine.

~~~
Grantmd
That's a good alternative. Although I think the game would be easily playable
at even a quick walking pace on the treadmill, they could trade each minute on
the machine with a minute of the buff next time you login. Or charge up an orb
in your inventory that you can use at will.

~~~
eru
Just make sure that you can't make other people walk for you. (Or do make sure
that you can?)

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scott_s
I have no interest, but my strength training doesn't use machines. And I use
progress as my motivation.

But no gym would want to do this because it violates their business model.

Most gyms are not in the business of encouraging people to work out. Gyms are
in the business of encouraging people to sign up. A person who signs up for a
year, comes for a week or two, then never comes again is almost pure profit.

~~~
patio11
I agree with regards to the business model, but the question is whether World
of Weightlifting brings in sufficient new customers or decreases churn. My LTV
to my gym is over $6k. If they convert the MMORPG crowd, they make money hats.

~~~
imp
> they make money hats

Where do you get these phrases? You're making me laugh at work :)

~~~
patio11
Money hats is a metric for profitability of video games created by Scott
Jennings (Lum the Mad), but most phrases I use repeatedly are the result of
trying out a lot of ways to say things and iterating on what gets smiles,
laughs, or quoted back at me.

~~~
lmkg
> most phrases I use repeatedly are the result of trying out a lot of ways to
> say things and iterating

Wow, I knew you were into A/B testing, but damn!

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dgallagher
As a distance runner, I'm more interested in increasing speed, VO2 max, and
duration. I'd love gym equipment that could measure and help me improve in
those areas.

Playing a MMO game in the gym as the article suggests? Not my style (distance
running is an endeavor of solitude). It'll definitely appeal to some gym
goers. You tend to have people who either do it alone, do it with a few select
partners (weight lifting), or do it in more of a social way with lots of
people (workout classes, team sports, etc...). The latter may be interested in
something like this.

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ryanelkins
It's interesting to see how this idea is being received. My startup
(IActionable.com) actually provides a way to make this happen to a degree.
We're mostly focusing on game mechanics for websites at the moment but I
really like the idea of moving in to other types of areas as well (we have a
few other ideas already). Our informal motto is "If you can record it we can
reward it".

I wonder if this co-op mode would be better suited to teams within the same
gym. Maybe it would work better without any teams at all? Individual
competition through leaderboards could be interesting. The motivational
factor, especially for new people could really be useful as well. I know a lot
of people are saying that it is not in the best interest of the gym - but
which gym would you rather sign up for? As soon as one big gym does it the
others would have to follow just to keep up if it does well.

The co-op mode is still pretty interesting too though. It could lead to better
camaraderie and feeling of belonging amongst gym goers. Any time you can get a
group working towards a common goal I think you can accomplish some
interesting things. I really like this idea and hope to be able to be a part
of it someday.

~~~
9oliYQjP
"I wonder if this co-op mode would be better suited to teams within the same
gym"

Definitely, this. Make it a cooperative group effort like skipping, not a
competitive team sport. See my comment here:
<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1687502>

~~~
ryanelkins
Yeah I like the idea of a group working towards a common goal that everyone is
contributing to more than trying to beat someone else. Competition works
really well sometimes but perhaps not in this case.

~~~
frossie
On the other hand, a lot of people who are social/motivated by team psychology
already have other motivating options, like team sports, group classes etc.

The interesting thing in this idea (which I agree with the comment that it
would be great for home equipment) is that it allows you to tap into your
motivation circuits even when you are engaging in a solitary activity.

~~~
ryanelkins
The nice thing is that you can build around all of these with the same system
and people can take what they want from them. There is no reason why any of
these elements would need to be mutually exclusive.

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georgecmu
After hurting my knee in a downhill skiing accident, I went through two months
of rehabilitation at the Sports Medicine Center. A lot of it had to do with
specific weight training for the damaged knee's tendons, and some of the
machines were hooked up as controllers to computers, where each exercise would
be represented as a simple game.

To keep the story short, the games forced you to focus not on the number of
repetitions or mass your were working with, but on the precise motion required
for the exercise.

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janj
I wonder what the balance is for gyms between active members and non active
members. I imagine most successful gyms have a relatively high number of non
active members, and if use increased then membership could actually decrease
because of crowding issues. I would think the gym's motivation is to increase
the number of memberships while keeping actual use low, restricting this kind
of investment to expensive specialty gyms. But this idea is successful only if
many gyms with many active members are involved.

I'm sure this kind of thing will eventually happen, just doesn't seem like the
economic motivation is there. But of course I have no actual knowledge about
this industry so my ramblings really aren't worth much.

~~~
cschneid
On the other hand, nothing sells gym memberships like more success cases,
telling their friends how they got fit.

~~~
janj
Or a free membership paid for by your employer in an effort to reduce overall
health insurance costs.

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rradu
Reminds me of a DICE talk about how games will work their way into our lives
providing us incentives to do all sorts of things like eat healthily, study,
etc.

[http://g4tv.com/videos/44277/DICE-2010-Design-Outside-the-
Bo...](http://g4tv.com/videos/44277/DICE-2010-Design-Outside-the-Box-
Presentation/)

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johnwatson11218
I just want to add that at home I have a treadmill with a flat panel tv,dvd
player, and xbox 360 hooked up right in front of it. That is the only way I
can do 40+ minutes of cardio. It turns out that for me the multiplayer games
like Call of Duty 4 are the most engaging. I can get so wrapped up in those
kinds of games that I forget that I am working out. It helps that often I am
"running" in the game at the same rate that I am physically running. I had to
cancel my gym membership because it was just so boring to be there for any
length of time. I think a first step will be to allow wifi in the gyms and
have stands where you can pop a laptop in front of the treadmill to watch
netflix or something.

With better UI I might try surfing the net or some kind of reading if the text
were big enough.

~~~
StavrosK
Don't your arms get tired from being held up in front of you for so long?

~~~
johnwatson11218
I use a wireless controller for the xbox, so I just hold it up in front of me.
It hasn't been an issue, my legs get tired first.

~~~
StavrosK
Hmm, depending on how fast you run, yeah... It's a good idea, but I can see
Gorilla Arm becoming a problem. I'm thinking of buying a recumbent exercise
bike to replace my desk chair with, though.

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feral
Right.

What he's describing is just like team rowing, or tug-o-war or a sport like
american football, rugby, basketball, etc.

We've had this technology for thousands of years.

~~~
Kuiper
What Scott Adams is proposing is a system that would allow individuals to
compete in team rowing or tug-o-war competitions with individuals from other
cities/countries/continents via the internet, which would be new technology.
It's sort of like the transition from local multiplayer on a game console to
online play. Home multiplayer video games have been around since the 80's, but
it's not until recently that they've made their way online. The internet is a
great tool because it ensures that you never suffer from a lack of available
teammates/competitors. In the olden days, your ability to partipate was
dependant on those around you having the same interest. Scott suggests setting
up gyms for this kind of thing, but the beauty is that with the proper
equipment, anyone would be able to compete from home. This could be a boon for
people living in more remote/rural areas who want to compete in team athletic
events.

Plus, there's all kinds of other neat things that you can have the tech do
with regards to scoring, like having a system to scale/normalize scores so
that a team of 10 adults can compete against a team of 10 children and come
out with roughly a 50/50 win ratio.

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zdw
The local YMCA has a Fitlinxx system: <http://www.fitlinxx.com/>

I type in a code into the b/w touchscreen on each machine (could be RFID I
guess, but that's stuff to carry/break), and it tells me what weight to set,
all the other machine settings (how high to put the seat, etc).

End of the month I get reports via email that tell me how much I lifted or how
much cardio I did in a somewhat clever manner - last month it was:

"Weight lifted this month: 159,840 pounds = 19.9 African Elephants"

These are actually pretty common, and I find it to be a great motivational
tool.

I've seen the machine hardware reboot before - it's DOS based, on 486s hooked
up with what looks like ethernet.

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ryan_au
This doesn't seem to be a particularly well thought out prediction in terms of
weight machines.

First of all, it would be dangerous. Say I'm on a leg press machine and my
contribution is some function of the weight I move and the number of reps I do
per unit of time. If I wanted to win the game, I'd be trying to bang out as
many reps as possible as fast as possible. Now say I've loaded on 200kg
(440lbs) and I start trying to do this. Say I'm on a Smith Machine and I'm
squatting as fast as I can. Say I'm on a bicep curl machine and I start trying
to rep too fast. These examples would expose a person to the potential for a
whole range of nasty injuries. Now imagine the kind of litigation implications
that would arise if the gym members started looking for someone to blame for
their injuries. In fact, these types of games (when applied to weight
training) look like a perfect candidate for a class action lawsuit.

The games that Scott is suggesting seem to indicate that they would encourage
poor exercise form. I challenge anyone to find a significant body of sports
science literature indicating that the faster one completes their reps (set),
the better it is for them.

The only way these games could be good for a person would be if they somehow
encouraged good form. Even if they did, the games would have to encourage good
workouts, e.g. appropriate exercises, appropriate rest between sets, an
appropriate number of sets, and appropriate number of reps and an appropriate
amount of weight. Even if this requirement was satisfied, the workout and all
relevant parameters would have to be tailored to the individual.

In summary, Scott's suggestion, if applied to any sort of weight training
machine, could be one of the worst things to happen to weight training since
the Nautilus circuit.

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Avshalom
The idea in some form probably has merit but

 _You'd need strict supervision to make sure no one was so amped up by the
game that he hurt himself on the machines. And the captain would need to
coordinate when someone moved from one machine to another. For example, if you
were being attacked and needed stronger shields, you might move your most buff
teammate to the machine controlling shield power until the threat was over. If
speed was most important, you'd put your speedsters on the treadmill. Or maybe
at some point everyone would have to "lift" at the same time to get over an
obstacle. The variations are limitless._

sounds a lot like it would actually get in the way of an effective workout.
It's not a good idea to just arbitrarily jump from one kid of exercise to
another, and if the game was any sort of actual game (as opposed to just a
leader board)the emergent gameplay would mean just that

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Tangurena
Oh great, World of WorkoutCraft.

~~~
DLWormwood
The thing is… achievements are what ultimately caused me to quit WoW. It
completely sapped out the enjoyment of the holiday events for me.

The current emphasis on achievements and worldwide leaderboards is
discouraging for me. I recently took a stab at making an iOS game in an effort
to get a development business underway, only for my game to be mostly ignored
because I had no “itch to scratch” involving writing a game with such
Darwinian mechanisms to drive community. (I’m an old school solo gamer.)

~~~
grhino
It's a tough balancing act. I participated a lot more in the WoW holiday
events because of the achievements. I noticed that a lot of people did not
like competing with the new horde of achievement go-getters making holiday
events more frantic and overcrowded.

I eventually quit WoW because I could not keep it as a reasonable, casual
attention sink. It would always end up as the dominant time and attention sink
in my life.

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robgough
I _think_ (hope?) this might be exactly what it would take to get me going to
the gym regularly. The team element would be a great source of peer pressure
"You best be at the gym tonight, we've an important battle".

Here in the UK there is a trend of £9.99/month 24/7 Gyms - and this would
complement them really well.

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ouhjygj
cycling / rowing machines had this years ago. The little LCD screen shows a
cartoon of you and the gym's best, your best, or some pro athlete at a set
rate zooming off into the distance. I assume the screens and graphics have got
a lot better in the last 10 years.

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MtL
We do not need all these gimmicks. We need people to know what is good for
themselves, and start doing something about it. Call me oldfashioned, but I am
of the impression that:

\+ No RFID chip in my backpack will make a mountain hike with 50lb weight
added any more fun, any more useful, any more easy or anything else.

\+ No RFID chips in the my plates will make my sets of squats or deadlifts any
more fun or easy.

\+ No RFID chip in my pants will make my hill sprints any more fun, easy or
anything else.

\+ No RFID chips in my food or fridge will make eating fruits, veggies, meat,
eggs, fish, berries and dairy any more fun than it already is.

~~~
tdoggette
Okay, here goes: You're old-fashioned.

Things are more fun when they're part of a game. Brushing your teeth or doing
your homework was not fun at age 6, but if you got a gold star, it was worth
it, just because gold stars had some value to you.

But, you say, you don't care about games associated with your everyday life
these days. Okay, then. You don't have to play. Don't pretend that your
preferences are a model of the way things ought to be. There are a lot of ways
that that doing non-fun things can be made more fun with technology and games.

Putting RFID chips in your plates will make lifting more fun if it's tied to a
fun, competitive game with teammates cheering you on. The fact that you
personally don't want to play doesn't mean that making healthy things fun with
technology is an insurmountable problem, or that people should give up on all
this fun stuff and pull themselves up by their bootstraps as you've made it so
very clear that you have.

~~~
gaius
_Putting RFID chips in your plates will make lifting more fun if it's tied to
a fun, competitive game with teammates cheering you on_

What good are gym buddies who can't spot you?

And besides, lifting is _satisfying_ , but it's not "fun" if you're doing it
right.

~~~
tdoggette
"Doing it right" by whose definition?

Why can't something be satisfying on one level and fun as it relates to other
things?

~~~
gaius
By the definition of taking it to failure if you want to make progress. That's
the only definition that matters - human physiology. Progressive overload
leading to adaptation.

Aerobics with 5-kilo weights can be "fun".

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tripplez
There is a similar thing called Nike Plus. It's a community web site with a
database of the running data of runners/joggers using Nike+ sensors in their
shoes (or Nike+ GPS App for iPhone).

And yes, I find it funny to be able to compare my running times, pace, total
running distance, etc. to the people around the world, it's like a RPG game
doing real things....

Of course, there are drawbacks. For instance, if the sensor isn't properly
calibrated the results can be inaccurate. Not the case with the pure GPS
tracking app, of course...

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brianmwang
Overall I love the idea of software improving the gym experience but I'm not
too sure about this simultaneous team effort idea. Anybody who's tried to grab
a cardio/weight machine or even a squat rack at peak usage hours before
understands the pain in the ass that is swapping sets or having to find a
completely different exercise to do.

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tedunangst
Sounds a fair bit like the hill climbing bits from "Do Androids Dream of
Electric Sheep?".

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mcantelon
Would be more useful, in addition, to have gyms generate power for the grid.

~~~
chadgeidel
Except for the fact that humans are _really bad_ power sources. Tour de France
riders generate about 500 watts. A quick googling turns up this article:
[http://www.sportsscientists.com/2009/07/tour-de-
france-2009-...](http://www.sportsscientists.com/2009/07/tour-de-
france-2009-power-estimates.html)

Basically you wouldn't even be able to keep the lights on, let alone run the
televisions, AC, fans, etc...

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JoeAltmaier
Never do it. Who wants to sweat so the Captain can have all the fun?

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acgourley
If this space is interesting to anyone shoot me an email.

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swombat
That's a completely stupid idea that will never work, as is obvious to anyone
who's actually ever attempted to get people to do things. It fails on so many
levels that it's not really even possible to write a concise, structured
rebuttal of it. Off the top of my head:

\- Too weird, most normal people won't do it

\- Not everyone gives a damn about video games

\- Too much of a financial risk for gyms to sign up to such a system

\- Too much of a financial risk for someone to build such a system for gyms to
sign up to

\- Too difficult to get everyone to agree on a game

\- Probably wouldn't make all that much difference to the total amount of
exercise being done, as it would turn off as many people as it turns on

Basically, this idea could work, so long as it was effectively free to
implement. So, by the time physical and informational resources are that
cheap, do you really think that no one will have figured out something more
efficient than gyms to work out?

Next: "How to make everyone happier: just get all the warlords to agree to
peace."

~~~
gmac
I disagree. I think it sounds great. It deals with two of the key things I
like least about my gym:

* It's a space with so many social possibilities, but 95% of the time everyone acts as if everyone else were invisible.

* All I get for entertainment is banks of TVs with mind-numbing rolling news coverage, mind-numbing sports, and mind-numbing (and slightly pornographic) music videos.

If I wasn't in the middle of a PhD I'd be tempted to have a go myself.

