
Ask HN: Wrong mindset is crippling my life.  What to do? - 20120908
I'm in my mid 20s, and graduated a few years ago with a bright future ahead. Since then, I've done everything wrong.<p>I grew up thinking I'd be a scientist, but dropped out of grad school without useful skills, moved in with family with whom I have an unhealthy relationship, struggled to find non-trivial work, and let my personal relationships languish because I'm ashamed of my life. I've taken some more college courses just to be doing something non-trivial (I've done tutoring/odd jobs), but to little benefit.<p>Since finding HN, I've taught myself (some!) Scheme, C, ASM, Py/JS/Rails, and Haskell, but have no really interesting projects. However, one of the messages of HN is that passion, not foundational knowledge, matters most, but my passions are outside web/mobile, in fields that don't pay (perhaps I misunderstand the "passionate developer" trope). Regardless, my résumé makes this a moot point.<p>It's hard to set and work toward short- or long-term goals: I don't know which goals and I'm constantly aware I should be focussing on something with short/medium-term financial potential and by a sense of futility/mental fatigue.<p>I've fallen off the track and don't know how to get back on. But somehow my problem isn't not being able to get a job in some specific field but not knowing how to live. For example, dissatisfaction with my underachievement leads me to isolate myself more (obviously a self-reinforcing problem for which the solution is to <i>be awesome</i>, but it's not working out). Selling anything, particularly myself, is something I'm deeply uncomfortable with, and too often just punted on. This is exascerbated by my current lack of value to offer, but again ... a mutually recursive problem?<p>I'm in reasonable health, live in a first-world country, and some brilliant and talented people (wrongly?) believed in me ... but I couldn't do anything right, and now couldn't even get a job at a burger joint. How can I change my mindset?<p>Thanks.
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chubs
Here's what i'd do if i was in your situation: find a local school that's
interested, and volunteer some time teaching programming to kids. Maybe teach
them how to make iphone games - they'd love that :)

Sorry to hear you're in a funk, we all go thru those sometimes.

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20120910
I'm not as articulate or insightful as other commenters on HN, and I don't
have any silly platitudes to lift you up, and even if I did, it wouldn't be
help in any way. So please forgive the rambling and stream-of-consciousness
that follows herein. Just like yourself, I also created a throwaway account
because my HN nick is my handle elsewhere.

You're in a trough - call it depression, a slump, burnout, whatever. We all go
through it - there's no defined beginning and no defined end. Some may
experience just a brief episode once at some point in their careers and are
ever so lucky to avoid the personal side effects, some may revisit it multiple
times throughout life, and some have remained stuck in one big trough from
since as far back as they can remember. Sometimes troughs are forks of
consequence, sometimes they're a result of our personal demons gaining the
upper hand, and sometimes we're just plain unlucky.

I can assure you though, that you are most certainly not alone.

Here's a confession: up until a few months ago, I was near the lowest point of
a very deep and seemingly pitch black trough which lasted roughly three years.
Just like yourself, I was long-term unemployed (I'm an independent contractor,
so technically I still am unemployed) and in my job hunt, I was branded
"unhireable" (actual word from recruiter) - chalk it up to my pursuing too
many fields when younger, not dedicating to one job, or not choosing to build
a brand (e.g. projects, blog, twitter, blech). At times, I felt as if I were
at the top of a Silicon Valley blacklist for reasons unbeknownst only to
myself. And, similar to your situation, I severed many personal relationships,
some irreparably - all the stories of success or excess that I saw on social
networks, on blogs, on HN etc etc etc were magnified by my selective attention
and self-doubt to the point that I became completely withdrawn and questioned
what good I was to myself, let alone my friends. Shame, depression, paranoia,
helplessness. These are all attachments that I couldn't shake. Every minor
success, I'd scrutinize its origins, wondering what strings were attached and
how soon before I'd manage to fuck it up.

Here's the scary part. I can't tell you that it will get better soon, because
frankly, that's an unfair expectation, and there's also a chance that it
won't. You will hit rock-bottom at some point - for me, it was last October
after I also moved in with family. All that negative energy and those feelings
of limited self-worth, as intense as they may seem now, will multiply and your
already tired and rewired mind will conjure deep-edge thoughts that'll
frighten the shit out of you, and lead you to drastically change your life in
more than one way. And you'll only know that you hit rock-bottom weeks or
months after it happens, when progress leads to forgetting your worries and
you occasionally have time to stop and reflect upon the relative shittiness of
days past.

Why am I saying this? Because you need to know what you're in for when it
looks like things can't get any worse.

You can delude yourself and listen to those who say that a positive attitude,
networking, determination, and patience is all you need. But brother, I can
assure you that amounts to nothing when rejection after rejection will tear
away at the widest of fake smiles and the chipperness of upbeat conversations
you try to have with recruiters.

There's no sense in assigning blame to your current emotional state or
dwelling on any one of several mistakes you've made in the past. Even the best
decisions you've made could've turned pear-shaped otherwise.

The good news, however, is that if you remain strong, you will eventually get
out of your trough. You're obviously seeking the right path by telling us your
story and looking for guidance, which takes exponentially more courage than
the alternative.

Here's some general advice, taking cues from what I did to emerge from the
dark. YMMV:

* If your passions lie outside web/mobile, then don't pursue web/mobile. I hated what I was unfortunately good at. I pivoted towards new disciplines in my consulting practice that both challenged and interested me, and which were at the very edge of my sweet spot in terms of expertise. I found new work by lowering my rate and targeting more forgiving clients, which took a lot of time (and a LOT more rejection).

* You shouldn't worry about pay or the caliber of company at this point. Just find the right environment that you believe you'll thrive in and immerse yourself for a few months or a couple years. Compensation should matter nothing to you at this point. You obviously can't get the pay you want, because you're not qualified. Nor can you pursue an internship or entry-level role in a high-growth placement, because you lack the vigor and momentum of a younger alternative. Any port in a storm - take what you can get, and make it better.

* Don't feel that you have to _reinvent_ yourself by learning a breadth of new skills. Build yourself anew atop the many things that you do like or are good at, and dedicate yourself to being really really good at one thing (basically, affirm your "t-shape" in HR 2.0 parlance).

* If "selling yourself" feels wrong, that's completely normal. It's called humility. Many today lack it. It's a curse professionally, but often a blessing personally. Take stock of what you have done really well in the past and what you genuinely want to do, package it into a story, recite it recite it and recite it some more, and the "selling" will be natural instead of forced and disingenuous.

* I don't have the context, but I'm sure you were rejected by the burger joint because you're of far greater value elsewhere - you don't know it, but they did. That, and based on what they see in your personality and background, you're unstable, unreliable and can't follow orders - three red-flags. Why should they take that risk, regardless of how smart you may be compared to the average line cook? Count your blessings - that would have been a dead-end.

* As ryanmolden points out, your serendipity is not in your immediate surroundings - go find it. Get out of the house and busy yourself as much as you can. Find venues that challenge you or provide fulfillment. For me, it was hiking the East Bay trails and volunteering at Habitat for Humanity GSF - anything that would create enough fatigue to displace my negative energy. More importantly, establish a sense of routine and discipline - I did this through daily gym sessions, teaching myself Python (have a LONG way to go), learning Spanish and refreshing my Calculus. Above all, don't tie any expectation of success to these goals (e.g. if you improve your Haskell, your chances of employment improve) because 1) frustration will likely follow from time seemingly wasted and 2) you're learning new things for the wrong reason.

Again, YMMV. Understand that there's no prescribed way out of any trough, and
_this will take time_. Also remember in the short-term what what you're
experiencing is perfectly normal. You'll be a better person once you emerge
from the dark, and hopefully you'll be set on the right path for the long-
term.

Most importantly, stay strong. I'm seriously wishing the best for you.

~~~
20120908
A lot of this post really resonates with me. I'm busy right now, but I'll try
to think about it today. Thanks so much.

~~~
masterzora
I did several years at a burger joint and it was a bitch and a half just to
get that. I found out while I was at said joint that you and I are nightmares
for such places because they know that (a) we're out at first opportunity and
(b) we're likely to get said opportunities relatively quickly. Hiring and
replacing people is expensive so it's beneficial to avoid people who aren't
likely to stay long.

I know it's a small point to make but it seems the gp covered most everything
else.

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ryanmolden
Realizing that life is in fact long, relatively speaking. The current culture
seems to imply if you aren't successful yesterday you are a failure. I think
this mindset is deleterious to any serious undertaking/success. I am a strong
believer in the old trope about being an overnight success in only 10 years.
The important thing is to think about areas you are interested in, think about
the necessary skills and begin the long trudge to learn them. Of course no one
wants to hear this, they want the TL;DR version, but the joke is on them as it
doesn't exist. My approach, if I were you, would be (long list ahead):

1: Find a job. Preferably in a field you can be passionate about, but really
anywhere works to get a good routine and a reason to wake up. I worked nights
in a warehouse through college, not an easy or fun job, but a great motive
force to keep me on track in school.

2: Pick one skill of the N you think you ultimately need in your dream future.
Spend at least the next year learning everything you can about that area. Find
online forums, find educational materials, go to the library, haunt local
meetups/talks in the area you are learning, ask really stupid questions to
make sure you deeply understand things, ignore what others may think or say
especially if their feedback is non-constructive (the world is, sadly, full of
dicks).

3: Find someone in the area whose work you respect and try to contact them for
any advice they may have. Most people, in my experience, are open to this as
long as you aren't too needy/rambling (like me, right now), respect that them
even taking time to write a single sentence is a gift, they really don't have
to and lots of people are rather busy.

4: See if you can figure out ways to provide value before ever asking for
anything. Perhaps someone has a PDF version of a book in the area you want to
learn. Read it, take notes of typos, confusing points, errors. Reach out to
them and ask how to send feedback (e-mail, forums, etc...) and give them what
you have. People like favors, doing them will build positive capital for your
future.

5: Repeat step 2 as many times as necessary.

6: Always be on the lookout for opportunities (jobs) that you are perhaps
suddenly qualified for via your studies. Never eliminate yourself from a
candidacy unless you clearly lack most required skills for the job. Make them
say no to you, don't say it to yourself on their behalf.

7: See a doctor/counselor if you even suspect depression. Treatment exists and
can be life changing.

8: Try to stay in shape. This can be as simple as taking daily walks/runs,
swimming, joining a gym, just something to stay active. It helps a lot with
mental acuity and focus. I myself struggle with this one, but I always feel
better the more regularly I honor this.

9: Try and expose yourself to serendipity. This generally means go to talks,
visit forums like HN, do everything you can to be exposed to the area you like
and people in it.

~~~
20120908
Thanks so much for your thoughtful reply!

Re. 2: I'm still not sure what my "dream future" is since my "real" dreams
(academia) are almost certainly out of reach at this point.

Regarding 2-5: your advice requires N years here ... which is surely fine, but
how can I avoid falling even further behind (in terms of CV, being a loner,
...)?

Re. 6: I typically eliminate myself from a lot of positions not because I
couldn't do the job (Excel, anyone?) but because there's no way I'd get
through screening (see 20120910's comments on the reasons for this).

Thanks again.

~~~
ryanmolden
I wouldn't necessarily consider you 'real dreams' out of reach. I mean they
may be more difficult now, but not impossible. Clayton Christensen, who is a
world renowned professor at Harvard, says 'I had been out of college and in
the working world for years before I figured out that I could make it back to
school to teach and develop a generation of wonderful young people'[1]. Now,
most of us aren't Clayton Christensen level of awesome, but I think the
general point stands. You CAN make drastic changes in your life, even if you
have gone off 'into the weeds'.

As for CV fears, in my experience, in the tech industry (assuming this is the
target industry, I don't know much about others), your CV/pedigree is less
important compared to what you know / can do. Demonstrating the latter can be
harder without having the former as leverage to 'get your foot in the door',
but having public depots of things you have worked on (ala GitHub), helping
out on OSS projects, networking with people in the area via meetups/tech
talks/etc... are all good ways to 'get your name out' so you can rely less on
credentials to get opportunity. I can definitely relate to the being a loner
thing, I am myself. I have had a number of friends/family pass away and it has
made me very hesitant to make close friends because losing people that are
close to you sucks. Participating in online forums/mailing lists in order to
learn and help others can be a good way to get some 'socializing' without
having to actually socialize :) Then the next step would be dreaded
socializing IRL, but that is less scary once you have established some kind of
reputation, even if it is just 'that guy that answers questions on technology
X on (mailing lists/StackOverflow/Other)'. Don't spend too much time worrying
about other people or if they view you as a failure or whatnot. People that
make those kind of sweeping judgments on others are, more often than not,
worthless people to know/interact with.

If your concerns are interviewing just realize it is a skill like any other.
No one is really 'born good' at it. I think people that think they are either
have interviewed only a few times and happened to get questions they already
knew or areas they were very familiar with, have interviewed a lot and thus
have a lot of practice, or they are just trying to appear awesome by acting
like interviews are just a cakewalk for them. Most people get nervous at
interviews, especially since you are basically competing for a job, which can
be stress inducing. I don't know if there are tricks to getting better other
than reading some of the better books on interview prep and practicing. I know
some schools have mock interviews you can participate in (possibly only for
alumni/current students) to get practice so you are less nervous. One other
thing to keep in mind is most of the time the interview is not to see if you
know the correct answer, or even if you can come up with it under a
time/pressure deadline. Rather it is to see how you approach a problem, what
kinds of questions you ask, how well you can verbalize your approach. Most
interviewers will try and steer you towards the right answer if you are asking
questions or 'throwing ideas out there', unless they suck at interviewing, in
which case they just sit there mute while you wander around the answer space.
Sucky interviewers suck, but you will likely encounter a few.

20120910 gives good advice, and he is honest that you may encounter a lot of
depressing events (rejections, failures, etc..), but everyone does (okay, most
everyone, some are born silver spoon firmly affixed in mouth). The important
thing is learning from them, relentlessly improving and continuing on. Not to
sound too 'self-helpy', but really the only one that can hold you back is
yourself. There are lots of oppurtunities out there, finding them can be a
challenge, but the reward is great. It is also a great feeling to know that
you have done it yourself and things weren't handed to you. I watched an
interview with Chris Sacca the other day[2] and he had a hilarious bit where
he was talking about the entitlement of some of the straight out of college
hires at Google who had never had much adversity in their life, how they were
honestly getting pissed off because the cafeteria ran out of pheasant one day
(obviously an exaggeration, but I have met people that would view that as a
_major_ problem in their life). Just know, you aren't the guy complaining
about lack of pheasant :)

[1] How Will You Measure Your Life - Clayton Christensen
([http://www.amazon.com/How-Will-Measure-Your-
Life/dp/00621024...](http://www.amazon.com/How-Will-Measure-Your-
Life/dp/0062102419/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1347217293&sr=8-1&keywords=how+will+you+measure+your+life))

[2] <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q6NpHbMFaQ8>

