
Travel in the USA Requires ID - ColinWright
https://neil.fraser.name/news/2014/12/25/
======
jameshart
"We have literally reached a point where the only way to travel long distances
anonymously is to use a horse."

Sure about that? Brief Googling on regulations around moving horses between
states indicates that "under ... federal regulations, horses moving interstate
must be identified and accompanied by an Interstate Certificate of Veterinary
Inspection (ICVI)."

~~~
beeworker
There's always personal BigDog robots...

~~~
CWuestefeld
Let's not get started on having to buy dog licenses every year in most of the
country.

------
jasonpeacock
There's a lot of FUD in the article.

Most (all?) states have no requirement to carry or present ID to officers -
you only have to give your name, and sometimes your address depending on the
state. There's no Federal requirement to carry ID.

To operate a motor vehicle you need a driver's licence...but your passengers
don't. What about riding the bus? You can get on the local Metro, Bolt bus, or
Greyhound w/o an ID.

Hitchhiking doesn't require an ID.

Bicycling doesn't require an ID. Nor does walking.

You don't need a pilot's license to fly an experimental aircraft (but I'm sure
there are other requirements for operating from an airport).

Hangliding/parasailing doesn't require an ID.

So...only through a commercial airline (private jets don't require IDs)
requires proof of identify.

~~~
eli
As the blog states, you actually _don 't_ need an ID to fly, you just need to
prove your identity (and be ready for a huge hassle).

~~~
CWuestefeld
Is "proving your identity" different in any meaningful way from "having an
ID"?

~~~
logfromblammo
In Anglo-American common law, your identity is basically whatever it is you
call yourself, provided that you are not doing so with intent to defraud or
otherwise facilitate unlawful activities. Most U.S. states still recognize a
common law name change or assumed name.

If James McGill uses the name "Saul Goodman" openly and notoriously in the
course of his business, he could reasonably use either name, or both, to
identify himself. It is literally just that simple. Your name is whatever you
use as your name. If you are a corporation, you may need to file a "doing
business as" document with the state business registration authority, but
natural persons can merely start introducing themselves with the new name. I
could start calling myself "Master President Jack Redbull Walks-Away-From-
Explosions Cartman the 42nd", in addition to my birth name and my HN handle,
and lo, that would be my name.

As such, the "proof" would be as simple as solemnizing an affidavit that you
are not using the name for any malicious purpose.

Requiring an ID--or more specifically, a state-issued ID--is much more
burdensome. The state, you see, has a selfish interest in being able to link
all of the names a person may have, such that it is easier to enforce its laws
upon that person.

I could not go to the state's ID-issuing agency and get an ID card featuring
the name "Master President Jack Redbull Walks-Away-From-Explosions Cartman the
42nd". The bureaucrat on site would rather tiresomely insist upon knowing the
boring old name that my parents gave to me, and adamantly maintain that the
state will officially recognize only one name at a time, that requires a form
to be filled out and authorized by a probate judge, and the new name wouldn't
fit on the card anyway, and would have to be abbreviated to "[Mr.] Master P.
Cartman, 42nd".

This common law tradition allows a person to use an assumed name or pseudonym
for travel, without the expectation that the traveler be _authorized_ in any
way. But the state (apparently) has an interest in tracking the whereabouts of
criminals and those who appear to have criminal intent. So it institutes ID
requirements to slide around the common law right of people to avoid name-
based tracking regimes.

~~~
CWuestefeld
_and the new name wouldn 't fit on the card anyway_

You wouldn't believe the trouble I've had to go through as a result of the
State of New Jersey not being able to accommodate the length of the rather
common name "Christopher".

------
mherdeg
I think you can still travel long distances anonymously using a bicycle.

Stephen King treats bikes as the canonical post-apocalyptic transit method —
roads are too crowded with abandoned cars for automobile travel to be
effective, and motorcycle travel is very dangerous (there is no ambulance if
you have a high-speed accident).

But you can do a hundred miles in a day on a bike. That's not bad.

I've also never been asked for ID when using an Amtrak ticket, although my
sample size is low (15 journeys) and I always use a credit card at point of
purchase (either online or at a ticket counter).

~~~
derekp7
It's funny you mention that, because he doesn't bring up bicycles in several
of his post-apocalypse books (I'm thinking of The Stand as one specific
example -- the characters all walk from one end of the country to the other).

~~~
ComputerGuru
I'm fairly sure The Stand uses bicycles as the primary mode of transportation?
Unless I'm mixing that up with Under the Dome, but I don't think so?

~~~
CWuestefeld
It's been many years since I read it, but I seem to recall that in the full
director's cut version (or whatever they call the not-well-edited version that
came out second), the conclusion of the book involved a package in a basket on
the handlebars of a bike?

------
noonespecial
I think this is simply an extension of the fact that its really no longer
possible to live an anonymous _life_ in the USA. The government makes the case
that they need to know who and where everyone is so that they can figure out
who is "dangerous". This seems perfectly reasonable to an awful lot of people.
The problem is that the people's idea of what "dangerous" means is wildly
divergent from the government's.

------
hbbio
Reading this should particularly echo to the French-crowd here, as our
government is about to pass one of worst anti-privacy law in history, all in
the sake of fighting "terrorism" of course.

Side note: The author is also the author of Differential Synchronization, a
key alternative to Operational Transform. If you happen to read this,
congratulations for your work!

~~~
pmontra
Thanks for the reference to Differential Synchronization, very interesting!
[https://neil.fraser.name/writing/sync/](https://neil.fraser.name/writing/sync/)

------
MBCook
> We used to make fun of the Soviet Union for its lack of freedom of travel
> ("papers please").

You only need ID not pre-authorization. You don't have to get Idaho to
authorize your vacation and Nebraska to allow you transit.

~~~
smackfu
And the US is actually pretty good about not requiring you to always have
Federal ID on you, compared to European countries.

~~~
thecopy
I cannot remember the last time i showed my ID to anyone when traveling/flying
in Europe.

~~~
ubernostrum
I was advised, by Germans, to always have my passport on my person when in
Germany, as police are empowered to and will randomly stop people and demand
identification. One German friend told me that once he was caught out without
his ID, and police literally escorted him home to retrieve and show it.

Also had to show ID (passport, in my case, as a visitor from the US) to board
planes in Europe.

While traveling on trains in Germany, I was also required to show ID.

~~~
PinguTS
Sorry, but that is BS.

Traveling on trains does not require an ID. You are not stopped randomly in
Germany to show your ID. It never happened to me in the 40 years I am living
in Estern Germany and Western Germany.

In Germany it is required that you own an ID (or Passport). But you are not
required to have it on you.

That said, if police has a reason to identify you, because of suspicious
behavior, police can have a hold of you until your identity is proven. That
will happen when you are speeding for example.

~~~
6t6t6
> That said, if police has a reason to identify you, because of suspicious
> behavior, police can have a hold of you until your identity is proven.

Sometimes, suspicious behavior may be that your skin is not white enough.

------
dmix
Other ways to travel without ID: by taxi paid for with cash also greyhound
buses (paid for with cash).

It seems cash is the only means of travelling without IDing yourself. The
destruction of privacy via credit cards/debit cards hasn't been given enough
credit.

~~~
MichaelGG
The article points out long-haul buses and links to this article:
[http://www.motherjones.com/mojo/2011/06/tsa-
swarms-8000-bus-...](http://www.motherjones.com/mojo/2011/06/tsa-
swarms-8000-bus-stations-public-transit-systems-yearly)

------
schoen
There's a site about this issue from the Identity Project, which documents
campaigns against ID requirements for travel.

[http://www.papersplease.org/](http://www.papersplease.org/)

------
Zikes
Not to mention the random checkpoints various states can set up in the name of
immigration or DUIs.

~~~
fapjacks
Recently there has been an interesting method of getting around this, which at
least is interesting: [http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2015/01/03/see-this-
guy-get-...](http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2015/01/03/see-this-guy-get-
through-a-dui-checkpoint-without-saying-a-word-thanks-to-what-he-hung-out-his-
car-window/)

------
recursive
Bikes are at least as practical as horses. And buses are at least as practical
as that.

~~~
URSpider94
In TFA, the author says that bus passengers are subjected to random ID checks.
It sounds like it's a statistical thing, not a 100% screen, but nonetheless if
you are dead-set on not carrying/showing ID, it's going to be an issue.

~~~
balls187
They are not subject to random ID checks. You are however, subject to random
fare inspection.

------
joshavant
In the article, there's a link to a TSA Blog article that assures readers you
don't need an ID to pass through security.

And, at the bottom of that article, there's a link to another TSA site, which
lists acceptable IDs ('You can find a list of acceptable IDs _here_.',
emphasis mine).

Hilariously, the first line of that page is: 'Adult passengers 18 and over
must show valid identification at the airport checkpoint in order to travel.'

Mixed signals, TSA.

------
gohrt
[http://papersplease.org/](http://papersplease.org/)

~~~
IgorPartola
I am fairly confused by this site. Best I can find is the page that says that
I should deny showing my ID (in all cases? In some cases?), and ask to see the
law that requires me to show my ID and "see what happens". For a site that
says that one of their core missions is education, I don't exactly feel
educated.

Their other activities seem more productive, such as investigating what
information the TSA and DHS keep on your travels, but which problem is it at
the core here? The fact that the TSA asks to see my passport when I fly, or
that the store that info along with my departure/arrival locations?

------
xigency
I've never had my ID checked to ride on a Greyhound bus.

~~~
Hemospectrum
That's because drivers are sloppy about enforcing it, even though it's been
company policy for however many years.

------
Havoc
>the only way to travel long distances anonymously is to use a horse.

Pretty sure that'll get your name in plenty of papers, so not so sure about
the anonymous part...

------
saint_fiasco
The author of the article implies that he used to be proud of not having to do
so because it differentiates his country from the Soviet Union.

How will having to carry ID turn a country into an authoritarian dystopia? Is
it just an American thing?

I ask because I live in a country with an authoritarian past and we still have
to carry ID everywhere and people just don't see anything wrong with that.
Should I try to persuade them otherwise?

~~~
JoeAltmaier
Requiring papers to travel means convincing your government. Not requiring
papers/ID means the government can't withold them. Personal freedom, which is
paramount in American public discourse.

~~~
saint_fiasco
In my country everyone has a right to an ID card and not even the police can
confiscate them.

I agree that withholding an essential ID document is evil.

~~~
JoeAltmaier
But, do you see that checking even your ID means the police can deny travel
based on who you are? The 'travel papers' are then in the government computer.

No, its essential you do not even present ID to travel, for personal freedom
to be ensured.

~~~
saint_fiasco
If you have a warrant for your arrest, they will detain you. Or if you are
under house arrest or something. They can't stop you on mere suspicion,
though.

I don't mean to say "if you did nothing wrong you have nothing to fear". It's
more like "if you weren't literally convicted of a crime, don't worry".

~~~
JoeAltmaier
Today. But that can change whenever some politician decides.

------
rhino369
Comparing an ID with "travel papers" is silly. An ID is an identification
device given to everyone who wants one. "Travel papers" are licenses to
travel.

IDs are a tiny restriction on your freedom. Travel papers are a major
restriction on your freedom.

The stupid airfare taxes are a much bigger restriction on our freedom, IMO.

~~~
imglorp
Three words: No Fly List.

There is no transparency to that process, no way to find out if you're on it,
no appeal, no recourse. That's tantamount to license to travel if not worse.

~~~
rhino369
I don't really want to argue in support of the no-fly list because I think it
is definitely unconstitutional (in current form), but it is still not a
license to travel.

It's a black list compared to a white list (travel papers). This makes a huge
difference as the default is that you are allowed to travel. Instead of having
to convince some bureaucrat that you should be allowed to travel, the
government just blocks a relatively small number of people from traveling.
Only 500 Americans are on the list. So 1.5 x10^-4 percent of Americans are
limited by it.

Also, no fly list only applies to one method of travel. You can still drive,
train, or walk anywhere you want.

~~~
FireBeyond
No.

According to the Justice Department itself:

"Last fall, there were about 64,000 people on the no-fly list, according to
the government. Typically, less than 5 percent of those on the list are
Americans. The list fluctuates in size."

That's at least 3,000 American -citizens-. Many of those on the list are legal
permanent residents, many more than citizens (as immigrants).

~~~
rhino369
I got 500 from a CNN article dated today. Less than 5% can be 1% or 4%.

Either way its still virtually nobody.

------
noedig
I wonder if we will need to have a license to operate a self-driving car.
Certainly we will need a driver's license in the short-term, but after some
time when people trust that self-driving cars work, will we decide that it is
no longer necessary for the person using the car to know how to drive? If so,
then that seems like it would open up a pretty anonymous way to travel. Of
course, the vehicle will probably be licensed, but if you rent it from a
company, then they company will know who is using the car, but the government
will not. Will the government require rental companies to check ID's and
provide them with the information? Maybe, but they already do that, and the
government would need a warrant to get the information.

------
pseudon
You do not need ID to fly intrastate within the US:

[http://www.papersplease.org/wp/2015/04/09/why-did-the-tsa-
pr...](http://www.papersplease.org/wp/2015/04/09/why-did-the-tsa-prevent-
these-people-from-flying/)

However, you do need explicit pre-approval from the US DHS to fly, through the
Pre-Crime surveillance and control regime of Secure Flight:

[http://papersplease.org/wp/2014/09/22/gao-audit-confirms-
tsa...](http://papersplease.org/wp/2014/09/22/gao-audit-confirms-tsa-shift-to-
pre-crime-profiling-of-all-air-travelers/)

~~~
dublinclontarf
> Pre-Crime

Nice.

------
mangeletti
[http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:SQCXxa8...](http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:SQCXxa8INWoJ:https://neil.fraser.name/news/2014/12/25/)

------
santaclaus
Is the MTA in NYC still subject to random ID checks?

~~~
rmxt
Not sure if this is the latest legal practice, but it seems that the NYCLU has
fought against this and won:

[http://www.nyclu.org/news/nyclu-victory-preserves-right-
walk...](http://www.nyclu.org/news/nyclu-victory-preserves-right-walk-around-
without-id-take-photos-nyc-subway)

That's to say nothing of the 'license plate reader-like' identification that
is feasible through MetroCard tracking.

Unfortunately, your stuff is still subject to "random" searches.

[https://www.reddit.com/r/nyc/comments/1dm5fu/what_are_my_rig...](https://www.reddit.com/r/nyc/comments/1dm5fu/what_are_my_rights_regarding_random_subway_bag/c9rmqap)

[http://www.aele.org/law/2006LRSEP/macwade-
kelly.html](http://www.aele.org/law/2006LRSEP/macwade-kelly.html)

------
anonbanker
I often use my family bible when going across borders. it's always worked as
proper identification, and is always accepted.

------
TazeTSchnitzel
This makes me wonder: do you need ID to take a train within the Schengen area?
I'd imagine not.

~~~
thesimon
No. You also don't need a ID for flying inside Schengen or going by bus.

------
binarymax
Forget being checked for ID. If you travel with a phone you constantly
broadcast where you are.

