
DoorDash Changes Tipping Model After Uproar - mcgwiz
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/07/24/nyregion/doordash-tip-policy.html
======
parliament32
My biggest gripe with tipping culture right now is the number of services and
establishments that think it's okay to tip ahead of time.

If I sit down at a restaurant, and get served well, I'll leave a tip at the
end when I pay. Hell, even if the service isn't great I'll still leave a bit
of a tip.

But now there's this idea that you should tip for service... before you get
served. The tip jars at Starbucks, apps that ask you to input your tip before
you get your delivery, POS systems that ask for a tip, etc. There's no way
I'll ever tip before service, and probably won't after either if the business
is audacious enough to ask for a tip when they're using a pay-before business
model.

I'm looking forward to seeing how long it takes for self-service gas pumps to
start asking for tips. After all, there's an attendant inside keeping an eye
on you, so that's a service right?

~~~
umvi
This is so annoying! It's like an automatic thing now when paying in a trendy
store using an iPad. It's like, I just ordered, but before I've even gotten my
goods, I'm presented with a dialogue on whether I want to pay 5%, 10%, 15% tip
(or "no tip" as a small button at the bottom).

I'm sure these businesses have found that merely including the dialogue = free
money, so why wouldn't they?

~~~
parliament32
I especially like the ones that offer you "quick" options of 20%, 25%, 30%. I
think they're just banking on people pressing the middle button as quickly as
possible without looking at it.

~~~
webninja
You’re right! People don’t select the lowest number because they don’t want to
seem cheap. People don’t select the highest number either because that of
course costs more money. Shifting the middle number from 20% to 25% leads to
more tip dollars.

------
guelo
I was amazed a few months ago when Instacart managed the uproar over this same
practice and DoorDash apparently calculated that Instacart would take the
brunt of the outrage and they would be able to keep their heads down and let
it blow over without making any changes. That was stupid and it was only a
matter of time before the next reporter noticed it and it would blow up again.

The correct evil strategy seems to be what Instacart is doing now which is to
make a complicated algorithm so opaque that nobody understands it so it's
difficult for it to generate outrage.

~~~
CodeWriter23
With the slippery language about the "model" and the future disclosure of said
model, I think DoorDash will do something like you describe. Because it takes
fewer words to say "Going forward all Dasher's will earn the guaranteed rate
plus any tips".

------
40acres
I think tipping is ingrained in American culture because of the lack of price
transparency throughout this economy. This has been a recent topic of
discussion in regards to healthcare but it also shows up in retail, where the
shelf price is not reflective of sales taxes, and when booking services like
flights and hotels where "resort fees" and "baggage fees" rear their ugly head
last minute.

I've even seen "no tipping" restaurants do the same with a fine print saying
that a 15-18% gratuity will be charged on top of my order, well.. why aren't
all the dishes simply 15-18% more expensive then?

~~~
shados
> I think tipping is ingrained in American culture

Tipping is ingrained in American culture because there's an insane disparity
between rich and poor and it makes the rich feel better about themselves (and
those who do it but wish they didn't then peer pressure their friends into
doing it. See the current wave of articles about tipping hotel staff claiming
that its the norm even though only a third of people do).

Its stupid and simply shouldn't be a thing. Especially since it means
employees' salaries effectively end up at the mercy of customers, and
customers are not regulated (eg: there is NOTHING stopping customers from
being racist/sexist/bigoted/whatever like there is employers, so pay could
theoretically vary drastically and there's fuck all they could do about it).

~~~
mwfunk
It's not about making rich people feel better about themselves. In the case of
restaurants at least, in the US servers are often paid below minimum wage,
because the employer claims that the bulk of their employees' wages come from
tips.

That's not anyone making anyone else feel guilty or good or bad about
themselves, rather that's an entire industry that has been allowed through
actual legislation to shift the burden of paying their employees from
themselves to their own customers. That's the root of it. And those customers
have no obligation to actually give anyone any money. It's a really screwed up
system, and like you say it's completely unregulated and opens the door for
all kinds of awful dynamics around racism/sexism/etc.

So, if someone stiffs their server in a restaurant in spite of their friends
trying to guilt them into tipping, the person stiffing the server is truly the
asshole in that situation. Yeah, the whole system's screwed up, it shouldn't
be like that, it's all a big scam, but the service industry people shouldn't
be the ones to get screwed over it. I'm not accusing anyone here of doing
this, it's just something I've witnessed. I.e., someone who thinks they're
really teaching someone (not sure who) a lesson about how much they detest
expectations around tipping by stiffing their server or always leaving lousy
tips. Whenever I've seen this happen, all I've seen was a rich person being
shitty to a poor person to send a message to the poor person's employer that
the employer never receives. I'm as annoyed by expectations around tipping as
anyone, but hopefully everyone realizes that the restaurant server situation
is very different from most other situations (valet, hotel employee, etc.).

~~~
shados
> In the case of restaurants at least, in the US servers are often paid below
> minimum wage

As mentioned in a lot of industries outside of restaurants people behave the
same way even though it's not true. A lot of restaurants pay at least minimum
wage, and not all states allow lower minimum wage, yet the culture is EXACTLY
the same. Plus, anecdotal, but I know plenty of folks who will fully admit to
tipping because they feel it makes them better people (though not in those
words). And try never tipping for a few weeks, you bet your ass some people
will try to make you feel bad. I've seen people genuinely forget and the
servers would run out of the restaurant to tell at them.

Yes, in some industries people are paid less than minimum wage but the culture
would be the same either way. It's also a chicken and the egg situation.

------
elicash
DoorDash CEO: "our average contribution to Dashers stayed the same"

What weird, coded language. They're not "paying employees." They're
"contributing" to "Dashers." At first, I figured this was just a way to avoid
saying that they're independent contractors, but this seems even more vague
than THAT.

Why, legally, would they say "contributions" rather than "pay?" It seems like
there's a different distinction from the independent contractor one.

~~~
somebodythere
Because. DoorDash would not like you to think it's that you paying DoorDash
and DoorDash paying Dashers. That would, in fact, make them independent
contractors.

Instead, DoorDash would like you to think that you are paying the Dasher
directly. DoorDash provided you a platform to find a Dasher and enter into a
delivery agreement with them. And DoorDash is graciously "contributing" to the
Dasher's income. This would make them no more an independent contractor than
someone looking for work on Craigslist.

I don't think this holds up because DoorDash is custodial of the money before
it reaches the Dasher's wallet, and because from the customer's perspective,
they're ordering delivery from DoorDash, not a Dasher. But that's just my idle
speculation.

~~~
scrollaway
How is what you're describing different than a freelancing platform like
upwork?

I'm sure the service terms are different but in upwork's case, they're also
acting as the escrow and taking a cut.

------
koolba
> “Going forward,” DoorDash’s chief executive, Tony Xu, wrote on Twitter on
> Tuesday night, “we’re changing our model — the new model will ensure that
> Dashers’ earnings will increase by the exact amount a customer tips on every
> order. We’ll have specific details in the coming days.”

> Under the policy, which the company adopted in 2017, DoorDash would offer a
> Dasher a guaranteed minimum amount to do a delivery. If a customer tipped,
> in most cases a tip paid through the app would go to subsidizing DoorDash’s
> contribution toward the guarantee, rather than increasing the Dasher’s pay.

> For example, if DoorDash guaranteed a worker $7 for a delivery and a
> customer did not tip, DoorDash would directly pay the worker $7. If the
> customer tipped $3 via the app, DoorDash would directly pay the worker only
> $4, then add on the $3 tip so that the worker would still get only $7.

And this is one more reason why I have and will not ever leave a digital tip.

Yes I know how tipping aggregates for wait staff (and I think that’s
stupid...) but this is different. These are independent contractors paid to do
a job. If they agree to do it for $X then that should come out of the pocket
of the company hiring them. Any tip is over the top.

I hope they (DoorDash) get sued by their customers for deception, lose in
court, and a precedent gets set to end this nonsense.

~~~
ben_jones
Postmates opens a tipping modal after a delivery that CANNOT BE CLOSED without
inputting a tip and clicking submit. You literally have to type 0.00 and click
submit to continue to use the app. I grew up in a strong tipping household
(both parents worked service jobs) and usually tip very highly, but everyone
should have the right not to tip if they don't want to (with no shaming or
prodding) and companies should not subsidize their operational costs by dark
patterning customers into tipping.... grr.

At the same time I hypocritically am a power user of many "gig economy" apps
like uber, ubereats, postmates, etc. so I am contributing to the problem more
than most.

~~~
forgtpasswd
I simply don't understand tipping before service. I have had multiple
occasions where the delivery is either delayed, food items missing, delivery
guy calling me and asking me to walk up to him/her because he/she doesn't want
to deal with parking etc. But, still expected norm is to pay a tip in advance
and hope for good service. And, in case you had a bad experience, well you
rewarded the service with a tip in advance anyway.

~~~
TheAceOfHearts
It's been a while since I last used their service, but I think they allow you
to modify your tip after the delivery has been made.

~~~
forgtpasswd
Even with that feature, not sure if that sounds justifiable to some but that
just seems even stranger than paying a tip upfront to me.

If I buy a couch online, how would it feel if the retail website has a
optional 15% tip for the delivery guy opted in by default in the checkout
flow. And, provide an option to modify the 15% in case your couch was
delivered late or damaged. Somehow, this workflow is widely accepted when its
food delivery :)

No idea, why is it expected to tip delivery persons for some commodities while
its not expected for some other :) Same thing, its expected to tip a driver
for a shared lyft/uber but not expected to tip a bus driver. It's just funny
at this point :)

------
gringoDan
This doesn't change anything. DoorDash will lower the base pay of the orders,
meaning the total compensation for Dashers will remain the same.

DoorDash has a model for what it considers "fair compensation" for an order.
Since the company can see exactly what the customers tip in advance, they'll
just subtract the tip amount from their previously calculated "fair
compensation" and show that base pay / tip breakdown to the Dashers. DoorDash
isn't going to suddenly increase its Dashers' pay by 50%.

If you want to actually compensate the Dashers, tip $0 in the app (raising
base pay) and hand them cash at the door. That seems to be the only way to get
around this policy.

~~~
hombre_fatal
But isn't this how almost all tipping already works?

I worked at restaurants where I had to report my tips or share them. If I
dipped below minimum wage for the month, the restaurant was supposed to add
whatever difference was needed (never saw it happen, btw).

So if DoorDash lowers the base pay, I don't see why anyone should die on
DoorDash's hill when the base pay of all restaurants around them is a
hilarious $2.15/hour. DoorDash pays a minimum of $1 per delivery no matter the
tip.

Before people get too angry at DoorDash, they should realize this is
ubiquitous.

We're never going to evolve away from tipping culture if our only trick is to
get outraged at one company at a time that makes the mistake of having the
spotlight fall on them.

~~~
pergadad
Just to clarify that all tipping _in the US_ works like this. The rest of
western countries pays a fair wage and then tip is a bonus the waiter gets to
keep (or shares with other staff in some contexts), but it's not expected to
be part of pay.

~~~
awa
Counter example, Washington state doesn't allow tips to be counted towards
employee's wage ([https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/washington-laws-
tipp...](https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/washington-laws-tipped-
employees.html))

~~~
wyre
Washington state‘s minimum wage for tipped workers is also the same minimum
wage as other workers though too.

Im a server in WA and im making 11.50 plus my tips. In the last state I was in
I was making 2.50 plus tips.

~~~
snowwrestler
But I'm guessing that in either job, you didn't have to take each individual
tip to your manager so they could review it and decide how much to take for
the house.

------
bluetidepro
It's interesting to see the new uproar about this change over on r/DoorDash.
It's interesting to see a lot of the workers now worried this will actually
end up being even less. It seems like they (workers/drivers) got what they
wanted, but also didn't.

~~~
amyjess
My observation about /r/DoorDash is that nobody there is ever happy.

I first checked it out in 2017, shortly after they implemented the current
model. The entire subreddit was a massive open revolt of people complaining
that they simply can't survive on what the new model pays them. For the
record, I went there because I got curious after I had a string of several
dashers who were just awful and couldn't follow basic directions. The
impression I got is that everyone on the platform with any intelligence either
had quit over the changes or was threatening to, leaving only the people who
just don't have the skills to get work anywhere else.

I'd look at it every few months or so after that, and one thing pretty common
was that people were suggesting that nobody should tip in the app and that
everyone should leave a cash tip because DoorDash steals tips.

When the tipping scandal first hit the news (forcing Instacart to change their
policies), I checked it out again, and everyone was talking about how
_finally_ the media is calling attention to how awful the tipping situation is
and again suggesting that nobody ever tip in the app.

And now this. DoorDash is fixing this policy, and the people there are still
upset. /r/DoorDash is simply the single unhappiest subreddit I've ever seen
that isn't a politics sub or a straight-up hate sub.

My impression using DoorDash, by the way, is that the situation I mentioned
above never resolved itself. I have a tendency to use DoorDash because
DashPass actually saves me a lot of money (you pay $10/month and get most of
your fees taken off on each order above $15... it usually saves me about
$5/order, so it pays for itself after two orders a month), but dealing with
the drivers is such a colossal headache that ordering something on DoorDash
stresses me out each time. I have never had anywhere near the level of
problems with drivers on Uber Eats or GrubHub (or Eat24 before them; I still
miss that company) that I have with dashers. DoorDash treats its people so
poorly that all the good dashers have long since quit, leaving only people who
have a marked inability to follow basic directions or instructions. I've found
myself ordering from Uber Eats more and more lately, even though I'm paying
more, just because the quality of the drivers is so much higher.

~~~
ceejayoz
> And now this. DoorDash is fixing this policy, and the people there are still
> upset.

Likely because they know the "fix" will likely just be a more subtle fucking.

------
souterrain
Wage theft is theft. DoorDash, and the VCs backing them, should be treated as
thieves until such time as they unequivocally reject the practice of wage
theft in all of their business dealings.

------
radcon
I can't believe that was legal. They basically tricked consumers into giving
them millions of dollars.

If the app called it a "Tip" then that should be some kind of fraud because it
wasn't a tip in the way that any reasonable person would assume, it was a
donation to the company.

------
tareqak
DoorDash (YC s2013) [0].

[0]
[https://www.ycombinator.com/companies/](https://www.ycombinator.com/companies/)
(search for DoorDash)

------
pacetherace
Tipping model is at its tipping point.

It is high time US citizens stop tipping and make businesses realize that the
customers are not directly responsible for employee wages.

~~~
cameronbrown
Devil's Advocate: Many people in the hospitality industry are making far more
via tips than they'd receive from a market wage.

~~~
luma
But which among those are making far more? Is it the person who goes the extra
mile to ensure good service? Or is it the attractive, white, young, well-
dressed, well-groomed, well-educated, and well-spoken person?

Tipping has been shown over and over again to be horribly discriminatory
against those who don't line up with the list presented above.

~~~
res0nat0r
Good bartenders of all kinds with a primo gig can make $400-600 a night for an
8-9 hour shift.

I worked in restaurants for a long time and think tipping to make up for
paltry hourly pay is idiotic, but I can see why many people work late hours
and weekends because they payoff is very high if you're in a good gig.

------
neilv
I thought management taking a cut of tips was known in the American
restaurant/takeout industry to be illegal. And at least one other prominent
dotcom has already been called on this.

Is this yet another instance of a dotcom knowingly and blatantly ignoring
existing laws and regulations, and seeing how much they can get away with,
while they use this advantage to steam full-ahead towards market dominance and
IPO?

Is DoorDash yet influential enough that they can turn this into merely a
regulatory handslap/caress?

------
rconti
There was a really easy fix for this. Remove the message that says "100% of
your tip goes to your Dasher". Stop lying to the customer. It's that simple!

As usual, the reality of the _financial_ situation is fairly complicated.
Doordash guarantees minimums that other such services do not. In other words,
in many ways, Doordash was more friendly to their 'contractors' than other
services.

If they had simply chosen not to be unethical and lie to customers about where
their tips go, they could have had it both ways.

~~~
FireBeyond
Their argument was that it's not a lie. The entirety of your tip _does_ go to
the Dasher.

... it's just that they reduce _their_ fee paid to them by, coincidentally,
the same amount.

And claim that this offers the Dasher "stability".

------
nafizh
Starup industry's break fast motto has become more like break every kind of
decency these days.

------
johnwheeler
Doordash is so stupid. I should be able to tip after I get my order, not
before. Until they fix that, the model is backwards and broken for the
consumer

~~~
oiasdjfoiasd
yeah, lol. once you do it once, you'll never do it again.

Add tip. Delivery driver fucks up the order/super late/spills your drink. Too
late! already tipped.

------
kevinventullo
I stopped using DoorDash a few years ago after reading about this. Despicable.

------
EGreg
Hey all.

Can someone explain to me WHY in 2019 we still tie the infrastructure to the
power to make decisions?

Marketplaces are built not on open protocols (like email) but closed
platforms.

They amass people from both sides and extract rents. But that’s a side effect
of the closed nature of the software.

Why yell at doordash or uber or facebook to add a feature? Why does country X
go after them for deleting posts while country Y yells that they didn’t delete
similar posts? Closed software is the issue. “Zero to one. Competition is for
losers” is who funded Facebook.

If people wanted to add tips in Wordpress or Email or whatever, they could
just go ahead an add those. Or a million other features. Their clients would
still interoperate.

Main reason: the capitalistic system we have encourages getting very wealthy
as a result of building a successful company. It encourages people to work
extremely hard and take risks while competing and duplicating 90% of the work
others are doing. But in the area of software and information, copying is so
easy. Collaboration beats competition nearly every time, relegating the
proprietary solutions of yesteryear to obsolescence. The private market is
reduced to turning out brief “bleeding edge” innovations which are then
subsumed into the open source snowball.

Wikipedia, the Web, Webkit, Wordpress, MySQL and NGinX has beat Britannica,
AOL, Blogger.com, IE, Oracle and IIS. So why don’t we have more of it in other
areas? Drugs? Marketplaces?

Albert Wenger from USV has a nice online book called “World after Capital”
that speaks about this.

------
sambroner
I'm regularly confused by tipping. I was never confused by tipping until the
gig economy. There's a tip on almost all of the gig services I use now, with
zero explanation of how the tip affects the gig worker. The tip should be a
reflection of the workers contribution to the service. I probably won't ever
tip a company.

DoorDash has raised $2Bil from investors. They're using this money,
presumably, to attract customers and suppliers through advertising and low
pricing. DoorDash is one of many companies using VC money in this way. Now I'm
supposed to subsidize the VC's subsidy of the product?

~~~
TeMPOraL
After the previous tipping drama (Instacart?), and little earlier my discovery
that a tip in a hotel restaurant actually doesn't go to waiters, but its taken
by the owner, I started to ask workers whether or not they receive the tip in
full. So e.g. now I happily tip FreeNow (née MyTaxi) drivers, having two of
them confirm to me that they pocket entirety of the tip.

------
g9yuayon
I feel sick to my stomach. I give tips specifically to the drivers, yet those
companies took a cut without even telling the drivers. A so-called high-tech
company behaves like a rogue restaurant owner. How low can we go?

------
lancesells
Amazon Primenow unfortunately does the same thing. I wish that would become a
story as well.

~~~
miaklesp
Just set tip to 0 every time.

~~~
lancesells
While that works for me I'm guessing 95% of the people using Primenow don't
know to do that. Amazon is 100x larger than DoorDash and needs to be called
out on it.

------
malandrew
Moral of the story is to never use DoorDash at least not until they pay back
all those drivers the tips they stole.

------
orvtech
I'll keep tipping in cash, thank you.

------
tolstoshev
Glad they changed it, but it's pretty damning that this was the model in the
first place.

------
thallavajhula
This is great. But, I got excited thinking that DoorDash changed their tipping
UX by allowing users to tip after the service is rendered.

~~~
robocat
Can't you tip with cash?

------
ycombonator
They misrepresented the tip charges to the customers. Where is FTC ? and why
isn't there an investigation ?

------
larrybud
It seems like the simple answer to this is to tip out-of-band directly to the
person (e.g, cash, venmo, etc).

------
jdkee
Solution: tip in cash.

------
unreal37
I think North America really needs to re-evaluate this concept of tips. The
rules of what to tip and when are intentionally vague because it's a sensitive
subject.

We should move to "fair pay", that includes slightly increased prices, and do
away with tips for most services.

It's so common that tips don't mean what the consumer thinks it means.
Restaurants and bars that pool tips and share them with all staff.[1]
Restaurant owners that try to keep some tips and only pay out a percentage to
the staff.[2] Casinos pool tips too so the dealer doesn't get to keep the
money you gave him directly.[3]

I get asked for tips at Starbucks. I get asked for tips when I do takeout food
from the local restaurant. I get asked for tips at the buffet restaurant. The
pizza driver gets a delivery charge AND a tip!

Let's clean it up and make it fair for the servers and the consumers.

[1] [https://www.restaurantscanada.org/industry-news/aware-
ontari...](https://www.restaurantscanada.org/industry-news/aware-ontarios-tip-
pooling-rules-regulations/) [2]
[https://www.restaurantbusinessonline.com/advice-guy/can-
rest...](https://www.restaurantbusinessonline.com/advice-guy/can-restaurant-
owners-share-tip-pool) [3] [https://www.businessinsider.com/wynn-tip-
sharing-2011-6](https://www.businessinsider.com/wynn-tip-sharing-2011-6)

~~~
hn_throwaway_99
Despite how much I agree with you, this is never going to happen, because the
real purpose of tips these days is to allow for variable pricing - the "base"
price stays low, while people who can afford to tip more often do.

I've seen lots of restaurants implement "no tipping" policies, only to revert
back to tipping within a year or two. The reasons:

1\. The higher base prices do have a negative impact on sales. 2\. The best
servers usually _want_ tips, because they can make more at a tipping
establishment.

In the past 10/15 years I've changed my attitude around tipping now that
pretty much every place I go to "flips around the iPad", asking for a tip. I
no longer really think of it as a reward for good service. At the end of the
day, I can't imagine trying to survive in a major city on barista wages, and I
can afford it, so I tip.

~~~
scarface74
_2\. The best servers usually want tips, because they can make more at a
tipping establishment._

It’s not the “best” servers according to studies, it’s often the most
attractive and non minority servers.

I don’t have any opinion either way about his conclusion/opinion but this is
the first article I could find. I first heard about this on Freakonomics

[http://www.opportunityinstitute.org/blog/post/im-going-to-
ti...](http://www.opportunityinstitute.org/blog/post/im-going-to-tip-minority-
servers-more-and-white-servers-less/)

------
imgabe
Tipping just needs to die. If your business model demands that customers pay
your price + 20% to pay your employees a wage they'll accept, then just
increase your price by 20% and pay your employees that wage to begin with.
Don't lie to customers and tell them the price is 20% lower than it really is
when they're expected to add on more.

~~~
ronnier
I think the biggest problem I have with tipping is something I never hear
people talk about -- it forces us to pay at the end instead of upfront.

Usually the process goes like this:

0: sit, bring water, give order, wait for food

1: eat

2: wait for the waiter to notice we are done. This can take a long time.

3: they want to pre clean the table, at which we say we are done, bring the
check please

4: they drop off the check, if you are lucky, you can hand the card to them
then,

5: If not, wait for them to come back to pick up your credit card

6: wait some unknown amount of time for them to bring your card back so you
can sign and leave a tip

It's so much easier to pay up front and leave the second you are ready.
Sometimes that ritual at the end takes longer than it takes me to eat my food.

~~~
everdrive
It's the introvert's bane. I'm done being at the restaurant, but I can't leave
when I choose to.

~~~
mr_custard
This! They can have the table back quicker too, if we can avoid the asking for
the bill dance, then waiting for the waiter to come back and take payment or
whatever. More efficient for the establishment and introverts win too.

~~~
iguy
One solution is just to stand up, and wander over to the counter where the
credit card machines live. This always gets their attention, and it's quicker
for everyone.

~~~
woodrowbarlow
just fyi, while it might seem quicker for everyone, waitstaff generally do not
appreciate this.

but i'm not trying to tell anyone what to do. :)

~~~
FireBeyond
> might seem quicker

When I finished eating twenty minutes ago, and you haven't topped up my (now
empty) glass, while I wait for you to drop off the check, I'm going to argue
that "seem quicker" is pretty synonymous with "_is_ quicker", whether
appreciated or not. And I'm sure the people waiting for a table in the lobby
would agree too.

~~~
howard941
ISTM this is definitely the kind of "service" that calls for a penny tip, on
the credit card.

~~~
FireBeyond
Supposedly(?) two pennies...

Someone explained to me that the 1 penny/cent tip was the "I appreciated
things, but I don't have anything at all to spare" (and I have certainly heard
the subjective philosophy of "if you can't afford to tip you can't afford to
eat out")... and that two pennies was the "I'm doing this out of obligation;
that sucked".

------
miaklesp
I never pay any tips except in restaurants. I always set tip to 0 in Prime Now
etc. I makes me feel good that I can spend the saved money on myself.

------
GigLoL
The "gig economy" is designed for the idiots on both sides.

The idiots that use these services.

The idiots that "work" for these services.

Can't wait until it all goes away.

------
Dirlewanger
If we had a populace educated in basic personal finance, the gig economy would
not exist.

~~~
notJim
I don't see how? It seems like the gig economy is essentially profiting from
the fact that there are a lot more workers available than decent jobs. How
would personal finance education change that situation?

------
minikites
Many people want to keep the very concept and system of tips in place because
it affords them power over someone:

[https://theoutline.com/post/4602/the-restaurant-industry-
is-...](https://theoutline.com/post/4602/the-restaurant-industry-is-fighting-
like-hell-against-raising-the-tipped-minimum-wage)

>“Money is power,” said Brooklyn-based waitress Marisa Licandro. “If the
customer is paying my wage, they have power over me. And customers having
power over you means that you can’t speak against them when they try to grab
you.

[https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2018/03/11/business/tipp...](https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2018/03/11/business/tipping-
sexual-harassment.html)

>There was the waitress in Portland, Ore., Whitney Edmunds, who swallowed her
anger when a man patted his lap and beckoned her to sit, saying, “I’m a great
tipper.”

[https://jezebel.com/what-does-tipping-have-to-do-with-sex-
an...](https://jezebel.com/what-does-tipping-have-to-do-with-sex-and-
power-1156118970)

>And his go-to line was so predictable, we would wait for it, anticipate it.
“I always tip way more than twenty percent!”

>If that was the case, why were these guys so mad about paying only 18%, far
less than they otherwise would? What was it about not choosing the amount they
tipped, that infuriated them, even when they were getting a discount?

>It had to be at least partially about lack of control. Or, more accurately,
lack of imagined control. This guy thought that, in a tipped environment, his
server would perform better in order to get more of his money. That idea is
false, as shown both by repeated studies and common sense, but that was
irrelevant. His anger could not be redeemed by mere facts.

------
minikites
Wage theft is distressingly common. The biggest thieves are businesses
(stealing from workers) and not some cat-burglar in a striped shirt:

[https://preview.redd.it/grnr8kxbl6zz.jpg?width=960&crop=smar...](https://preview.redd.it/grnr8kxbl6zz.jpg?width=960&crop=smart&auto=webp&s=58e55a49de73f58ebd92aed4472b10d525627262)

[https://www.epi.org/publication/employers-steal-billions-
fro...](https://www.epi.org/publication/employers-steal-billions-from-workers-
paychecks-each-year-survey-data-show-millions-of-workers-are-paid-less-than-
the-minimum-wage-at-significant-cost-to-taxpayers-and-state-economies/)

[https://www.currentaffairs.org/2017/11/abuse-by-bosses-
comes...](https://www.currentaffairs.org/2017/11/abuse-by-bosses-comes-in-
many-forms)

This is why unions and collective bargaining are so important. The power of an
individual is almost meaningless versus a business of any size.

~~~
SkyBelow
>Wage theft

Does this qualify as wage theft? Per US tipping laws, this is how tipping
normally works.

~~~
pluma
It's wage theft. That it's legal under US law only means it's institutional.

That is _worse_.

EDIT: Because some people seem to be unaware: there is no actual crime in US
law called "wage theft". It's a term that describes specific behavior and some
of that behavior violates certain employment laws and regulations. See the
Wikipedia article for the specifics, although it specifies that "tip theft" is
actually its own legal complex within "wage theft":
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wage_theft](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wage_theft)

