
Apple, Firefox tools aim to thwart Facebook, Google tracking - octosphere
https://www.apnews.com/98a66a02aa984fc5aa0995005c72b86e
======
ultimoo
> To get the protections, you’ll have to break your habit of using Google’s
> Chrome browser, which by some estimates has more than half of the worldwide
> browser usage. Safari and Firefox have less than 20 percent combined.

This point is key here. I switched to FF about 6 months ago and every time I'm
showing something to co-workers they will usually remark how unusual it is
that I'm not using Chrome. Chrome is the de facto engineer's browser and for
good reasons to boot. Here's hoping FF catches up and becomes that some day.

~~~
Raphmedia
Firefox (and Firebug) used to be THE environment used to develop for the web.
Things changed and will change again. Chrome isn't some magic immortal
browser.

~~~
ma2rten
People used to think that Chrome will never take over IE on Windows. Most
people will just keep using the default browser. I think that was valid.

I don't really understand how Google managed to get people to switch. Is it
just ads on google.com?

~~~
kart23
I think it was that and the ui. It looked much cleaner and better than any
other web browser, you could even customize it with themes and so on to match
your personal taste. I guess people saw the ads and decided to try out their
favorite search engines new product.

------
davedx
OK so now I'm considering switching my primary work browser to Safari instead
of Chrome (I use Firefox for a lot of my general/personal browsing already).
The one thing holding me back is development tools. Which has better devtools,
Firefox or Safari? (I've tried both several times but always ended up running
back to Chrome...)

~~~
asdkhadsj
I don't have an answer to your question, but I would ask: Why not use what you
find best for development tools?

Ie, I've switched away from almost everything Google. My phones, my email, my
life. Yet, I still have Chrome installed. It has useful features, like
development tools, Hangouts (for random free calls), etc.

Is it worth it to purge Chrome entirely? Are we worried about Google as if
they're a virus? I'm asking honestly, do we need to be concerned with even
having Chrome _installed_? If not, then I'd argue to keep it installed and use
it for the features you need from it, like dev tools. The majority of your
traffic will still be on Safari or Firefox, right?

~~~
sirn
Chrome and other Google softwares, by default will install a system-wide auto
updater (Google Keystone[1]) set to run every 5 hours. The Keystone Agent
cannot easily be removed, and will reinstall itself on every updates. There
has also been an exploit[2] of this auto updater service.

If what you need is Chrome developer's tools, installing Chromium (or building
your own, for the paranoid) seems like a much better choice to me.

[1]: Note that it has nothing to do with the google/keystone project on GitHub

[2]: [https://bugs.chromium.org/p/project-
zero/issues/detail?id=14...](https://bugs.chromium.org/p/project-
zero/issues/detail?id=1486)

~~~
copperx
Is the Keystone Agent run by cron? Modifying crontab is just a few keystrokes.

~~~
sirn
Keystone Agent is running by launchd on macOS, usually modifying defaults can
stop it from running:

    
    
        defaults write com.google.Keystone.Agent checkInterval 0
    

However, this won't remove the agent from the system, and I think there's no
way to be sure Google won't change this configuration key in an update (or
even overriding its value).

------
mattferderer
I suggest trying Brave for browsing. It already handles this very well.

It lacks the great developer environment that Chrome or Firefox has.

Though if you're developing, you should probably have multiple browsers open
part of the time anyways...

~~~
1ark
The new development builds are built with Chromium now, so can use all the
nice things that is available for Chrome.

------
badrabbit
The level of tracking they do is downright criminal. If someone makes a clear
effort to avoid tracking and you track them anyways then you're a stalker.
I've tried it all and I never use chrome unless I have no other choice. They
track you anyways based on behavioral analysis across sites.

The answer is simple: criminalize their behavior. If you think that measure is
extreme then you must not be aware of how dire the situation is. You shouldn't
have to go through all these hoops and even when you do it's all futile.

A DNT request header should be treated as a digital court ordered restraining
order,where violators get prison time(CEOs of the site).

This will solve sooo many problems without eliminating targeted advertising
alltogether. A balance in favor of the people needs to be established.

------
greendestiny_re
These efforts are commendable but the UI developed around them, particularly
the "don't allow/allow", is atrocious and a pale memory of Firefox philosophy
of placing control into user's hands. Where is the additional information?
Where are the choices? How is the user being tracked? Will the user have to
constantly dismiss these dialog boxes?

I started using FF in 2005 exactly because I felt it gave me a way to peek
under the hood and customize my browsing experience. For the first time ever
the software I was using was truly mine and it empowered me. I even got
interested in programming because I was, for example, learning how to write
and edit Adblock filters to nix that one persistent page element or using
developer tools to sift through page code and extract Instagram images of
bikini models. This would never have happened had my curiosity not been piqued
by the notion of software made to serve _me_.

Is this how Firefox is going to be from now on? Incessant dialog boxes?

~~~
fukuwata
> using developer tools to sift through page code and extract Instagram images
> of bikini models

why were you doing such a sexist thing?

------
jamespo
When I'm logged into google I get aggressive recaptchas on other sites I can't
solve, so I've moved to the google container plugin
[https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/google-
contai...](https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/google-
container/?src=recommended)

~~~
bogomipz
Interesting, I would have thought there would be less. Any guesses as to why
that is?

My perception is I encounter them more frequently when browsing a VPN. I would
be curious if anyone else has experienced similar.

I think the pervasiveness of the Google recaptcha is one of the biggest
scourges of the modern web. I understand the importance of utility of course.

~~~
kart23
Yes, captchas are broken with vpns. Sometimes, I was not even able to complete
the captcha, if you click on the audio option it says to try again later
because it thinks you are sending automated requests.

------
bogomipz
>"Apple and Mozilla are able to push the boundaries on privacy because neither
depends on advertising. Google makes most of its money from selling ads."

I am curious will Google at some point push back on Mozilla's efforts here?
Isn't the placement of Google search as the default search engine in Firefox a
significant source of funding?

~~~
s_dev
Probably part of the reason why they built and maintain Chrome.

Firefox will always have a dedicated user base -- if Google want to be the
default search engine on that browser they will have to pay for it otherwise
services like Bing will occupy that space.

~~~
Chabs
OP's point is the other way around. They are wondering if Mozilla can afford
the financial hit of not getting that money from Google anymore. If Google
leaves that space, then Bing won't have real competition here, and will pay
substantially less.

~~~
bogomipz
Yeah this was my question. It seem like a slippery slope for Mozilla since
their patronage comes form one of the biggest sources of the behavior they are
endeavoring to guard against with these features.

------
moedersmooiste
What I would like is a browser plugin/extension that jails every website in
it's own cookie space. That way websites(and all trackers on that website) can
only read their own cookies. Is there anything like that out there?

~~~
hrktb
Firefox has. It screws third party logins and integration (mainly
google/facebook logins) and Google’s captchas, which will be way harder than
when cookies are shared.

~~~
bogomipz
>"It screws third party logins and integration (mainly google/facebook logins)
and Google’s captchas, which will be way harder than when cookies are shared."

Could you elaborate on this? Whats the connection between shared cookies and
Google's captcha intenstity? Thanks.

~~~
hrktb
There was this post a discussed here a few weeks ago:
[https://www.ctrl.blog/entry/firefox-fpi](https://www.ctrl.blog/entry/firefox-
fpi)

In short, Google uses part of its behavioral data to decide beforehand how
much of a captcha is needed. With no data at all you get the full blown one.

~~~
bogomipz
Wow, from your link:

>"As I noted only recently, Google reCAPTCHA has a 99,3 % global marketshare
in CAPTCHA services.

No CAPTCHA reCAPTCHA uses Google’s knowledge and insights about you from
tracking you around the web to determine whether you’re a computer or a human;
instead of asking you to pass a cognitive tests. Google seem to have reduced
confidence in their ability to identify you as a human with reduced tracking
and an unusual number of unique users (every website is assigned different
tracking/user ID/user instead of sharing the same ID) from your IP address."

Google has literally become a gatekeeper for substantial part of the web. I
had not seen that statistic before. I'm surprised this particular point is not
discussed more. More recently I have just stopped using captchas when
possible. I just won't sign up for the service. I'm not sure how else to fight
this. The idea that you should penalized for trying to protect your privacy is
truly reprehensible.

------
wenbert
I tried to switch to Firefox. But the biggest roadblock for me were Profiles.
My Google Chrome profiles are so old and useful that I feel handicapped when
on Firefox.

Also, does Firefox can I have multiple profiles on Firefox now?

~~~
JoshMnem
You can run multiple tab containers[1] in Firefox as well as multiple Firefox
profiles[2] at the same time.

On Linux, I use:

    
    
        alias ff='firefox -ProfileManager -no-remote &'
    

[1] [https://support.mozilla.org/en-
US/kb/containers](https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/kb/containers)

[2] [https://developer.mozilla.org/en-
US/docs/Mozilla/Firefox/Mul...](https://developer.mozilla.org/en-
US/docs/Mozilla/Firefox/Multiple_profiles)

------
auslander
Private Browsing windows and tabs is quite effective too, you can set to use
it by default in preferences, my 2c

------
curiousgal
Why should anyone with an adblocker installed care about tracking? I mean
isn't the end goal to just serve personalized ads?

~~~
yalogin
Here are a few reasons.

1\. Ad blockers have a performance impact.

2\. As blockers don’t have the number of uses that the browsers have, so I
have seen websites routinely request to turn them off. However if the
protection is built into the browser sites cannot ask users to switch to a
different browser, they have to figure something out or suck in less data.

3\. It’s also a vote against Chrome and Facebook telling them we really don’t
want tracking. Switching away from Chrome is the best way to send a message.

~~~
fauigerzigerk
And you'd have to trust the ad-blocker in addition to trusting the browser
maker.

~~~
scarface74
Not if you are using iOS or MacOS with Safari. The ad blocker you install just
sends a list of blocking rules to Safari and then Safari implements them. The
ad blocker can’t intercept your browsing history.

------
vinayms
The biggest draw to Chrome is the dev tools. The debugger especially is on par
with Visual Studio, may be better, and smooth (too smooth actually, especially
the scrolling) whereas Firefox chokes 90% of the time as if it were created by
novices. For instance, the break point never works, and if it does, the
variable values are undefined. I am using v60 but this has been happening for
many versions now. I have never faced a hiccup with Chrome. That said, I use
Chrome exclusively for debugging and do general development and browsing
exclusively on FF. Only if FF could improve theirs and spare us running two
memory hogging browsers simultaneously.

\--

As for the topic, I am not sure how much of this is out of genuine concern for
the users and how much is opportunistic jabs at the competitor's revenue. Will
the jabs lead to hooks and upper cuts and eventual KO? IDK but it seems like
we have a nice match on.

~~~
saagarjha
> Firefox chokes 90% of the time as if it were created by novices

Hey now, don't be mean…

> As for the topic, I am not sure how much of this is out of genuine concern
> for the users and how much is opportunistic jabs at the competitor's
> revenue.

I wouldn't call it a jab at competitor's revenue, but it does make good
business sense to extol privacy as a "feature" of your products.

~~~
gxs
We as a crowd, as technical peeps, are really hard to please.

You simply can't get it right. Track your users to oblivion? Evil, shady
company.

Start integrating features in your products to limit invasive tracking..it's
not genuine, it's a ploy to screw other companies' revenue.

I like the skepticism, but taking a step back to reflect on this nowandthen is
good IMO.

