
Why the doors to America are closing for Chinese tech students - thetechlead
https://www.inkstonenews.com/education/chinese-tech-students-us-face-visa-restrictions-amid-trade-war/article/3008298
======
Leary
I wonder if Chinese tech students who are unable to find jobs in sensitive
sector in America will have to return to China, leading to a reverse brain
drain.

The Chinese nuclear weapons program and missile program were both helped
greatly when Qian Xuesen[1], one of the co-founder of the Jet Propulsion
Laboratory, returned to China during the Red Scare in the 1950s.

[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qian_Xuesen](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qian_Xuesen)

~~~
rapsey
I think due to the US inability to fix fundamental issues with regards to
upward mobility, education and a fuck you attitude on the world stage.
Anything they do to counter China will only hasten the rise of China and their
decline.

~~~
Zarath
A vast majority of the Chinese international students I met in college were:

Already incredibly wealthy (if you think inequality is bad in the US, you
should see Shanghai or other parts of China) and had no intentions of staying
in the US and were just here for education. It was extremely common to see
Chinese students driving around in BMWs, Mercedes, Audis, and very often nicer
cars, and it became something of a stereotype with most of the people I knew.
Not to mention my university was taxpayer funded.

~~~
thaumasiotes
> Not to mention my university was taxpayer funded.

Assuming it was a US university, the Chinese students were paying a special
extra-high tuition for international students.

~~~
lkCbdBclE
I think their point was that it was a public university. At least in my
experience, you'll see less (they still exist) obviously wealthy students. It
makes the wealthy international students more jarring/juxtaposed.

------
someguydave
In electronics, the success of areas like Shenzhen and the relative expense of
engineering in the US has decimated non-defense industry. In 2002, there were
385,000 electrical engineers in the US. In 2014, there were only 300,000.
([https://www.computerworld.com/article/2487847/what-stem-
shor...](https://www.computerworld.com/article/2487847/what-stem-shortage--
electrical-engineering-lost-35-000-jobs-last-year.html)) Why should foreign
students expect to work in relatively expensive industries that are losing
employees in the US?

~~~
leereeves
According to the BLS there were 324,600 electrical and electronics engineers
in the US in 2016.

[https://www.bls.gov/ooh/architecture-and-
engineering/electri...](https://www.bls.gov/ooh/architecture-and-
engineering/electrical-and-electronics-engineers.htm)

A bit of a decline but "decimated" is too strong a word for a decline from
385,000 to 324,600, and much of that is due to smartphones and tablets (and
single-board computers like the Raspberry Pi) that reduced the need for custom
electronics. For example: in the 90s I worked for a company that made a custom
handheld device. Now that product is an app.

~~~
jazzyk
The rapidly increasing presence of electronics everywhere (cars, "intelligent"
fridges, etc), should have caused a dramatic rise in the number of engineers,
so I would say "decimated" is somewhat justified.

------
MlkedChocolate
A prominent Beijing scholar who recently fled to the United States has warned
that China was sending "spies" to American universities, and urged US
institutions to tread carefully on academic co-operation.

[https://www.scmp.com/news/china/article/1437005/expelled-
pek...](https://www.scmp.com/news/china/article/1437005/expelled-peking-
university-professor-warns-us-universities-over-educating)

------
MlkedChocolate
From Wikipedia: According to Robert Hannigan, former Director of the
Government Communications Headquarters, Chinese hackers have engaged in
economic espionage against British universities and engineering companies, on
behalf of the Chinese government.

What better instrument than a graduate student?

Sure, we want to be open and inclusive to everyone, but don't be stupid. Don't
let the country that literally partners up with North Korea
([https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China%E2%80%93North_Korea_rela...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China%E2%80%93North_Korea_relations))
and have hacked and infiltrated other countries before have open access to
cutting edge technology.

During university, I've heard from a chinese student (From China), who's dad
owned a high tech factory. He told me the plan was to get a job at the most
reputable tech firm in that industry, and learn from it, then bring it back to
his dad.

~~~
ETHisso2017
God forbid, a kid who wants to work in the family business! He must be up to
something no good, being from an evil Communist state. Wait, how do family
businesses exist under Communism? _head explodes_

------
ralph84
If China didn't have a massive state-sponsored corporate espionage program
these students would have a case. But China does, so the students are going to
have to deal with the vetting required to make sure they aren't a part of it.

------
waynecochran
I knew a lot of Chinese students in grad school (computer science) and saw
none of this. This article smells fishy.

~~~
DeonPenny
Its actually new. In the past year trump can basically unofficially prevent
chinese student from getting visas

------
paxys
It is the same situation for Indian students, but due to visa and green card
quotas and long processing delays. I'm hoping this leads to a boon for the
Indian technology sector, which has already seen a resurgence over the last
few years.

------
simonblack
The American Manhattan Project came about because Germany forced a lot of
Jewish scientists out of their research jobs in the thirties.

Those scientists moved to the States, which was America's gain and Germany's
loss when lots of Weapons Research happened during the forties.

America seems determined to lose out when Chinese scientists are barred from
US jobs, or when Chinese space engineers are refused any interaction with
NASA.

~~~
DeonPenny
One they were killing jewish scientist. They were running for their lives.

Two most of these people are students and there a huge line for students to
come into US universities. Unless china has a another plan to invest heavily
in western free and democratic schooling they won't lose that edge.

------
ETHisso2017
I've heard that AI and semicon are going on the export control list, and even
a US national communicating knowledge with someone is a "deemed export". Does
this mean all Chinese H1-Bs are going to be barred from working at Microsoft,
Google, Intel, and Qualcomm?

~~~
colechristensen
It means that AI is going to be sequestered to buildings with big unfriendly
signs at the door "No Foreign Persons Beyond This Point" and data will have to
be managed in ways similar to medical, financial, legal, or payment data.

Long ago I worked in defense and had some export controlled hardware
(unlocked/no restriction high performance GPS and satellite technology)

What it meant was that to work on our stuff you had to be a "US Person" and
"export" could be a conversation with the wrong person. In practice it meant
the work couldn't be shared with students from a short list of countries. The
punishment for infractions could be as little as recording and notification
and as severe as significant prison terms. "Export" happens quite a lot and
usually consists of innocuous mistakes.

~~~
ETHisso2017
But given the broad definition of AI and semiconductor design, however, and
inclusion of other technologies like "Logistics" (seriously, the whole
category, not a subfield) within emerging technologies list, wouldn't this, in
practice, make whole companies no-go-zones for Chinese H1-Bs?

I can't see Intel or Applied Materials or even UPS having Chinese H1-Bs around
in the future. While there are some here who wouldn't mind having a Chinese
Exclusion Act in their industry, I'm hopeful a majority of voices here will
see the problem inherent with moves like this.

------
ETHisso2017
Qian Xuesen would like to have a word with you.

~~~
steele
from the grave?

~~~
ETHisso2017
Har har... but seriously, look up his story. It's not hard to see other
Chinese students today in his (figurative) boat.

------
roenxi
How many advantages does America have left if China gains a decisive edge in
its research capabilities?

I count military and control of the international monetary system. That isn't
a winning hand unless the Chinese shoot themselves in the foot with corruption
or a return to their communist roots.

~~~
yoube
English is a huge advantage. I don't see the rest of the world clamouring to
learn Mandarin any time soon. It's a benefit, sure, but not a necessity.

------
killjoywashere
Who, exactly, doesn't understand that the US university system requires a
certain number of grad students to have the research output it produces, and a
great way to close that gap would be to improve secondary education in the US?

Also, I have a bit of ill will toward US universities that turns down US
students in favor of Chinese students. I'm looking at you, UCSD.

~~~
SamReidHughes
There aren't many students fit for grad school (in the sciences) that are held
back by poor secondary education. Obviously, some specialized programs could
accelerate top kids farther, faster, but they're mostly already grad-school
capable.

~~~
jbay808
This is quite a tangent... But how are you sure about this? I have known many
high performing kids that felt severely under-challenged in secondary school,
or were even picked on for showing genuine interest in their material. Some of
them made it through and turned out fine in the end, but some of them didn't.
Some ended up dropping out early, or severely under-performing their potential
and throwing away a shot at becoming "grad school capable". (Whether on
purpose, due to self sabotage or boredom, peer pressure, or bad habits). The
teachers did their best but had to focus on the even more at-risk students.

Not all high-performing students will do well regardless of their environment.
Some will crash and burn without support, and that doesn't only mean
"accelerating them farther faster". It can be enough to group them together
with other kids that are similarly enthusiastic and curious, so that they
don't shoot each other down.

~~~
SamReidHughes
The majority of high school graduates are enrolling in college. Among people
in the top 1% by talent, that number is in the 90%'s, no? So the kids not
getting face-time with college and grad school options is a small sliver.

Also, there don't seem to be any other secondary education systems, in other
states or countries, that are doing surprisingly better.

