

Asking An Employee To Leave The Company - jsavimbi
http://www.avc.com/a_vc/2012/07/mba-mondays-asking-an-employee-to-leave-the-company.html

======
skue
This article is full of good advice, but one thing Fred doesn't say which
should be added: It's quite possible that the employee is already aware that
things aren't working out - especially if it's a smaller startup.

I cofounded a company and hired a friend who moved across the country. I even
went to the mat with another cofounder who questioned whether he was the right
fit. Turns out he wasn't. It wasn't his fault. He's very talented, but he
duplicated existing skillsets (mine most of all), and the hat we needed him to
wear was one that he'd never worn before. And this increased the stress of his
job, which only made it even harder for him to be productive.

Fortunately, the other founders agreed to be generous about offering him an
exit (in line with Fred's advice), and so when he and I had the conversation
it was much easier for his departure to be a mutual decision and we've
retained our friendship.

I would never go into a conversation like this unprepared and rely on the
assumption it will be easy or mutual. And I haven't had to do this often
enough to know if this was a rare outcome. But if you look at it from both
sides and are willing to be generous with the solution, then it is possible
that sometimes the "mutual decision" really is a mutual one.

------
s_kilk
> " I don't like using terms like "fire" or "terminate." To me they have too
> much emotion attached to them to be appropriate when splitting with an
> employee. I like to say that "fred was asked to leave the company" or "fred,
> we need you to leave the company." That works better for me and, I think, it
> also works better for the person who is being asked to leave the company. "

\--

Honestly, this seems a bit spineless. Don't describe it as "asking them to
leave" if in actuality the employee has no choice. If you're telling them to
leave and to not show up for work again, call it what it is, either a
'firing', 'redundancy' or 'letting go'. Anything else is just dishonest.

In my previous career path we eventually faced massive lay-offs/redundancy
across the company. New tech had made our jobs practically obsolete and the
layoffs represented an opportunity for me to move on to better things, which
is fair enough.

However, it always annoyed me how the various communications from Head Office
were phrased as 'we deeply regret asking you to leave', when it was so clear
that they were delighted to be rid of us, and there was no 'asking' being done
at any point.

~~~
mb_72
'Letting you go' is the best way to balance being direct, and also being
(somewhat sensitive), I think. Although the appropriateness of any phrase is
related to context. One place I worked I was aware some people were about to
be fired, and I was staggered to see the boss taking one of these guys
shopping for a new PC(!) The very next day - even before the PC arrived at our
office - this guy was taken in for 'the talk'. He came out, sat at his (old)
PC, and wrote the most blistering and blunt assessment of my boss, the
company, and the rest of us. Quite reasonable too, given the circumstances.
And I never worked out if my boss was intentionally being cruel, or if he just
simply forgot this guy was about to be fired. As for the received email, I had
just enough time to reply "If you put as much effort into the rest of your
work as you did this email, you'd still be working here" before the guy left.

~~~
FireBeyond
"and also being (somewhat sensitive)"

"As for the received email, I had just enough time to reply "If you put as
much effort into the rest of your work as you did this email, you'd still be
working here" before the guy left."

One of these things is not like the other...

~~~
Avenger42
The _boss_ needs to be sensitive. The email is from a coworker, who isn't held
to the same standard.

That said, I wouldn't have sent the email myself.

------
praptak
While "fire" and "terminate" (someone) might bear too much negative emotions,
"asking to leave" leans too much on the rosy side. Usually "asking" implies
they have a choice, right?

~~~
qeorge
I've fired people and I've been fired. Its excruciating for both sides, and
embarrassing for the person being let go. There's very little danger of it
being too "rosy."

Fred's further advice of getting right to the point and giving them honest,
clear reasons is spot on. He's not advocating for bullshitting the employee;
he's advocating for not being a dick when there's no reason for it.

~~~
praptak
> There's very little danger of it being too "rosy."

I disagree. Using too rosy a term for something that's very bad for the
recipient might be perceived as disingenuous or just lacking balls to tell the
unpleasant truth.

~~~
busyant
Agree. I worked at a biotech startup where our CFO had to fire an employee. He
went in soft and the fired employee showed up the next day wondering why his
fob wouldn't open the door. Theres no need to be cruel, but clarity is key.

------
maybird
Any recommendations for someone who's been fired?

How can I help someone who's been fired bounce back?

What should someone who's been fired tell potential employers why they're no
longer with a previous employer?

I'm trying to help a friend, but I've never gone thru this, so I feel
powerless.

~~~
patio11
_What should someone who's been fired tell potential employers why they're no
longer with a previous employer?_

There is virtually no answer to that question that makes you sound like a
better candidate than you were before it was asked. I'd be strongly inclined
to say some variant of "It's a tough economy.", which is non-specific,
virtually guaranteed to be a contributing factor, and avoids faulting either
party.

The canonical answer is some variant of "We weren't a good fit for each
other." Then, again, refocus the conversation on how you'll be a great fit
with interviewer's company.

~~~
tomjen3
Why not just say 'they hired me for a different role that I was not suited
for'?

~~~
patio11
Because a) that sounds like you have a problem and b) that sounds like you
blame your problems on other people, including people that the decisionmaker
empathizes with more than he empathizes with you. That sets him to thinking
whether you're going to blame him for hiring you in 6 months after you're
fired from his company.

There's just no percentage here for you. (An American idiom: basically, no
outcome of this line of thinking is going to help you.) Just handwave towards
the economy and start talking about happy subjects.

------
kgtm
tldr: The author is actually talking about _firing_ an employee, but
communicating it as "we need you to leave the company", while at the same time
"being generous in financial terms and emotional terms".

Just some perspective: Not sure about the EU in general, but in Greece at
least, asking someone to leave the company is synonymous to forcefully making
one quit. This arm-twisting has far-reaching implications for the person
leaving the company; Namely no unemployment benefits or severance package. I
wouldn't want to work for such a company and would actively discourage others
to do so.

Just wanted to add some cultural perspective; I am aware the situation in the
US (and the author's) is totally different.

~~~
protomyth
In the USA, you can run into serious trouble if you tell the employee they
must leave and then tell unemployment that the employee left of their own free
will.

------
luigiwallo
I've always wondered...how do you go about discussing such things as
recommendations/references in this situation? If you are one of the employee's
only employers, you'll likely be one of his/her only references...

Do you talk about the situation? And how much of is it contingent on the
circumstances of their leaving (obviously a reference would be out of the
question if the firing was for severe misconduct)?

~~~
rdl
The legally safest thing is just to confirm dates of employment and title,
officially.

Anything negative at all, and a lot of positive things could be interpreted as
partially negative, exposes you to risk if the employee doesn't get the job.

I am not a lawyer.

There are various ways to get around this when getting or giving references.

~~~
jsavimbi
Pretty much. When I worked at bars in college I knew of a guy who used to give
glowing recommendations for bartenders he'd fired. To his competition.

Outside of that, the best thing to is to confirm employment with dates. Oddly
enough, some people will list a reference from where they were fired for
misconduct. I'd bet that said person doesn't even understand what constitutes
misconduct, why they were fired and how to avoid it in the future.

~~~
rdl
The standard hacks for referrals are:

Call or email, leave a message asking to be called back IFF the candidate was
exceptionally strong. Assuming you aren't a competitor, you'll probably get a
call back if true. If the guy was meh, it is a nice way to pocket veto.

For when you do employee referrals, if employees are getting pressured by
lames to refer them, let them do no-op referrals. Default bring meaningless,
and "strong referral" being a real referral. Google, Facebook, etc do this.

~~~
tallanvor
Any company who wants to avoid a lawsuit will respond to your request whether
or not they consider the person to be "strong". And the good ones will contact
the ex-employee and inform them that you are trying to get around their
reference policy

~~~
rdl
Not in the case where it is one fairly respected hiring manager calling
another in a smallish industry. Not corporate HR (startups, not like HR is
more than form filling).

It would be exceedingly difficult to successfully sue someone for failing to
return a call or email from a random outsider. Plausible deniability.

This is also one of the cases where being part of a "mafia" is awesome -- you
can actually call up and get unvarnished opinions, or at least, cagey "I don't
think I would" "That might be difficult" etc.

------
e40
Notice there is nothing in there about 'why' they're being asked to leave.
Getting into the why's is exactly the wrong thing, even if the employee wants
to know that. Also, it is possible you will stay something wrong in the
explanation that a lawyer could then use against you. I'm speaking of the US
only, in this case.

~~~
Avenger42
He does write this:

 _Most employees in this situation will ask for reasons. Have them lined up in
advance and be clear and crisp when describing the reasons. The reasons for a
split do not have to be the employee's fault. They can, and often are, the
company's fault. In startups, employees are almost always at will and it is
the CEO's right to ask anyone to leave the company for any reason. So just be
as honest as possible, be clear and crisp about the reasons, and don't turn
this into a long involved discussion._

