
An Open Letter To PC Makers: Ditch Bloatware, Now - MojoKid
http://hothardware.com/News/Open-Letter-To-PC-Makers-Ditch-The-Bloatware-Now
======
ajays
Not going to happen anytime soon. There's too much money at stake.

Not only do the PC makers make money from bloatware; the vendors (BestBuy in
particular) also makes money from offering to _remove_ the bloatware when you
buy a PC (laptop). I was at BB and the salesguy offered a deal ($30?) to
"optimize" the laptop after purchase, and remove the bloatware.

To paraphrase a saying, "if a man's paycheck depends on him not understanding
something, you can bet he won't understand it".

~~~
raganwald
Reminds me of the Supermarket business. Supermarkets aren't retailers, they're
landlords in the business of renting space by the shelf-foot and they're also
in the business of renting display advertising and signage.

We seem to be transitioning away from PC manufacturers being in the selling a
PC business and are towards being in the software distribution business.

~~~
tzs
Yup, and it is not just supermarkets. That's also how it worked at places like
Egghead and CompUSA, and I expect how it still works at places like BestBuy.
The manufacturer can have their distributor simply get the product into the
store, and it goes on some bottom row in the darkest part of the store, will
never be featured in a sale or promoted in the store's newspaper ad, and so
on.

If you want anything more than that (good position in a row that doesn't have
a homeless camp in it, a featured position in the store's ad, and so on) you
pay for this.

This is one of the reasons Windows 95 totally killed OS/2, even though on
every technical level (including the ability to run Windows programs) OS/2
should have won. Microsoft paid for ads. Microsoft paid for end caps with
Windows 95. Microsoft chipped in to help software developers who wrote for
Windows 95 afford store ads and end caps.

IBM was content to just shove OS/2 into the store, let it sit on the bottom
shelf in the back where even someone who went to the store with the express
purpose of buying OS/2 would have a hard time finding it. That and IBM's
complete disdain for developers is what killed OS/2.

The mail order computer catalog businesses also work this way. When you read
the entries for a given product in catalogs from different sellers, they are
often nearly identical. That's because the item entries are not written by the
catalog company. They are ad copy written by the product's vendor. When a
product gets a quarter, half, or full page in a catalog it isn't because the
catalog company thought it was great and wants to push it. It's because they
thought the big fat check from the vendor to their ad sales department was
great.

------
mquander
An Open Letter To PC Makers: No matter what you do, I will never trust the
software you put on my machine, so I couldn't care less what bloatware you
package or don't package; I'm reformatting first thing anyway. Thanks for
finding this clever way to make my machine cheaper off the back of someone
else.

~~~
sandipagr
Do you really think adding bloatware makes it cheaper by the price of a fresh
windows copy?

~~~
krakensden
Yes, most of the big OEMs pay around $20 per license [or they did back in the
XP days].

~~~
sandipagr
wow, really? one more reason to dislike Microsoft. They make an average user
pay 10 times of that.

------
yock
Don't limit this call to action to computer configurators. Handset
manufacturers and mobile carriers are just as guilty of this. AT&T has a suite
of apps that charge fees for what most handsets can do for free out of the
box. Samsung removed default Android widgets (notably, Google Calendar) from
their Galaxy S line so that users would be coerced into using their widgets.
Verizon V-Cast. I don't mind if they make these things available. I dont' even
mind if they're marketed to users in ways that don't violate my privacy and
aren't spam, but to install them by default and bar their removal is
unforgivable.

~~~
colkassad
I don't really care about bloatware on a computer -- at least I have the
option to remove it or reinstall, or even install another OS. Every time that
City ID app pops up on my Droid telling me that my trial is running out I am
insulted. Like anyone is wants to pay a monthly fee for a buggy, less
functional caller ID -- and if I don't want it, well too bad because it's just
going to sit there taking up space because the carrier thinks they have a
captured audience.

Sure I can root it but why should I have to void a warranty to remove this
crap? The wireless industry in this country is a joke. I'll take my free
McAfee trial, thanks. At least the OEM and software vendor have a measure of
respect for the end user.

------
sandipagr
Microsoft needs to take charge of it and make it such that people can revert
to fresh copy of windows. Formatting the computer is an easy solution but then
why should I ditch out 100+$ on a windows license. The first thing I do when I
get a PC is to format it but none of my friends do and later ditch windows. I
won't be surprised if all the hate about windows being slow and resource hog
exists because of these bloatwares.

~~~
protomyth
What exactly would Microsoft's motivation be to remove a revenue stream from
their OEMs? It would be like Google requiring all Android phones to not have
carrier supplied software by default. Both would be nice, but this installed
software makes the difference in profitability.

~~~
sandipagr
Windows users not ditching windows for OSX would be primary motivation. And I
was not suggesting Microsoft should not allow them to add bloatware but to
allow an easier path for user like me to revert back if I want. Currently, I
have to find a install CD and do a fresh install. I am just hoping there be a
way where everyone is happy.

------
SimonPStevens
I think author has made a mistake:

 _"consumers do not want bloatware"_

This is wrong. Consumers don't care. 90% of people who buy PCs from the major
manufacturers probably don't even know what it is. (Some even think it's a
good thing when it's advertised as "Comes with free 2 month subscription to X
Security Centre")

Hackers/Programmers etc don't want bloatware, but we are a minority.
Personally I usually build my own PCs. On the odd occasions when I buy them
pre-built (or when I buy laptops) I format and reinstall the OS when it
arrives and in these cases I am quite happy that the cost of the hardware has
been subsidised quite nicely by something that only requires me to quickly
reinstall to resolve.

I regularly get requests for advice on PC buying and from non-techies the
question normally goes "Where can I get a cheap [PC/Laptop] that will let me
use [internet/facebook/email]". As soon as I hear "cheap" I just direct them
to a the current big PC supplier. They don't care if it takes 45 seconds to
load the desktop, they just want to 'friend' people and tag photos.

~~~
bad_user
I've got people coming to me to "repair" or do something about their computers
all the time. It has gotten so bad that I actually have a teeshirt saying "I
won't fix your PC".

Consumers care, they just delegate this particular task to others.

So please PC manufacturers, save my life because I can't take it anymore.

    
    
          They don't care if it takes 45 seconds to load the desktop
    

Except that in my experience it takes 5 minutes on average (between power-on
and being able to work).

I don't know who came up with that "45 seconds" figure, but it's totally
bullshit.

~~~
Bud
"Load the desktop"? How quaint. I reboot my Mac about 3-4 times a year, almost
always for major OS upgrades.

~~~
bad_user
It's bad enough that such software is totally useless, but it also keeps
upgrading and harassing you to restart, as if it is reminding you that the app
totally exists on your computer and it's useful (look, it's doing totally
important stuff in the background, restart now or later?).

    
    
          I reboot my Mac about 3-4 times a year
    

I reboot my Linux once every 2 days (when the battery runs out, I shutdown as
I've had surprises with hibernation, even on OS X). But my desktop is loaded
in 20 secs or so.

------
mbesto
This is a big reason Apple wins.

~~~
sandipagr
Sorry, how exactly is Apple "winning"?

~~~
sandipagr
ok so now one can't even ask for an honest clarification on HN.

~~~
ComputerGuru
I don't think most people (myself included) realized you were asking a sincere
question. Usually one-liner questions with that.... tone are snarky replies
and not genuine questions seeking genuine clarification/answers.

Just a suggestion, but if you try to flesh out your queries a bit more you may
find them more likely to be answered. Not your fault, but when every other
poster is being ironic/sarcastic/sardonic, you have to take the extra step to
make sure you're not mistaken for one of them :)

~~~
sandipagr
I was serious because I did not find my parent comment to be adding anything.
I even added "sorry" to indicate I honestly wanted to know. I guess it made it
worse. Would blame ESL :)

~~~
ComputerGuru
Yeah, definitely a miscommunication issue. Without the "sorry" it would have
come off normal, but depending on the tone and inflection of "sorry" to native
speakers it could either be complete sarcasm or genuine bewilderment. But the
default here would be the former :)

------
rmc
PC manufacterers aimed at the mass market are on a tight margin. Bloatware is
a where they get most of their profits. If someone offered bloatwarefree PCs
(ad added an extra €50 to the price) would they be able to compete with the
bloatware PC sellers?

~~~
ugh
Apple can.

~~~
AlexandrB
This is one thing I don't get. Why is there so few "premium" Windows PC
manufacturers that try to compete on quality (I can think of one, maybe,
Lenovo)?

Is it because they're all running the same OS and making better hardware
doesn't offer enough differentiation?

~~~
gnaffle
Some are competing on quality (Panasonic Toughbook is an example.)

Some even try to compete on product design (HP Envy?), but they fail to match
up to the attention to detail that Apple is known for. My guess is that they
have outsourced most of the process to their suppliers, which means that they
have less of an influence on the design details. Apple spends a huge amount to
keep an in-house design team that not only does the superficial design, but
also the layout of components, figuring out which materials to use and how to
use them, etc. From the film Objectified: <http://vimeo.com/7827217>

For instance, all PC laptops have a big external power supply with long cables
with some kind of velcro strip on order to tidy the cables It's been like this
for 20 years. Apple probably uses the same internal components in their power
supplies, but they've designed one with a nice magnetic connector, a
detachable power cable and nice "hooks" for winding the cable. They've had
this design for at least 10 years. This is probably not a deciding factor when
people buy a laptop, but it's a nice design detail that Apple decided to spend
the money on developing, whereas other laptop manufacturers never thought
about it. Or, more likely, a lot of designers have thought about it and has
have had their ideas axed by the business CEOs.

~~~
AlexandrB
I always thought the magnetic connector was patented; otherwise it's shocking
that more manufacturers don't use it - I've seen laptops ruined by a single
"tripping" incident. Also, I have to sheepishly admit that the magnetic
connector was what pushed me over the edge into buying a MacBook.

~~~
gnaffle
I'm pretty sure that they would have been able to come up with another non-
magnetic solution if they wanted to. But it would take a lot of money and
manpower to come up with a good alternative and test it.

A less elegant solution is the breakaway cable used on the original XBox
controllers, which would detach while leaving the "main" connector still in
the laptop.

------
ugh
The easiest way of getting rid of bloatware is to just format the drive and
install a fresh retail copy of Windows. It’s astonishing how well that works.

I recently tried that with a cheap Compaq laptop (that’s a HP brand) which
comes with loads of crap. When you install a fresh copy of Windows, it is
clever about which drivers it needs to download and everything just works.
Special buttons, sound, Bluetooth, wireless LAN, webcam, SD card slot, you
name it. I didn’t have to hunt for one single driver.

You obviously need a fresh copy of Windows and I’m not aware of any computer
that comes with one. (All this is assuming that you want Windows and not
Linux.) I’m a student and get Windows for free but others are not so lucky.
Reinstalling the OS is not really a practical solution for the average user,
anyway, but it is illustrative of one thing: The manufactures wouldn’t have to
do one thing – just ship their PCs with Windows as is — and there would be no
more bloatware.

~~~
illumin8
You state the problem right in your second paragraph. New PCs don't come with
a Windows retail copy. They come with a factory recovery disk that reformats
your hard drive, and reinstalls the OS and all the bloatware for you, just as
it came out of the box.

If you want a fresh retail copy of Windows 7, unfortunately, you actually have
to buy it, which adds about $199 onto the price of Windows. At that point,
you're better off buying a Mac, as the price advantage that your cheap budget
PC gave you by bundling the bloatware is easily cancelled by the additional
Windows license price.

You get better software and better hardware with the Mac, plus a bloatware
free and virus free experience. It's a win/win.

~~~
acabal
Not always true--the Dell I bought just last month came with the OS and the
bloatware on separate discs. I formatted the computer using the OS disc and it
was a totally fresh version of Windows 7 with not a trace of bloatware in
sight.

Though I'm pretty sure they used to do what you described in the past, so I
wouldn't put it past other manufacturers to still do it!

------
acabal
That's why my first order of business when opening a new computer is to
flatten and reinstall. Usually manufacturers seem to include their bloatware
on a separate recovery disc, leaving the OS disc fresh.

I always offer to do this for my family members too as soon as they buy
laptops, because if I don't, I'll inevitably be on the receiving end of calls
like, "acabal, why is my laptop so slow, I only just bought it last month,
does it have a virus?!?!"

------
pkchen
How much extra would you be willing to pay for a bloatware-free PC?

~~~
romaniv
Why does everyone assume that bloatware profits get passed down to the
consumers? And how much money vendors get for this anyway? It might very well
be a matter of several dollars per PC.

~~~
pkchen
because they do... even that little intel sticker means you're saving some
dough.

------
xpaulbettsx
Actually in the Japanese OEM market (and remember, many PC manufacturers are
Japanese), extra bundled software is huge - customers demand as much bundled
software as possible, and a machine without it wouldn't sell.

You should see all the crap that's installed on a Japanese laptop, it makes
the American ones look completely spartan. I personally think it's bizarre,
the machines are unusably slow, I pave mine as soon as I get them

------
ramen
A related issue is the fact that many drivers show up in the Add/Remove
Programs list (or whatever they call it these days), so you can't just remove
everything or you will find that your keyboard, touchpad, media card reader,
etc. no longer work. Sometimes it can be really difficult to determine if a
program is an essential driver or useless bloat.

------
maigret
My simple solution: Insert Ubuntu CD and format the drive. Still bloatware is
a practice that should just stop. It's like you would buy a car and everything
is packed with cheap toys and IKEA furnitures.

~~~
lotusleaf1987
It's more like the car has a bunch of stickers inside/outside for car
accessories stuck on everything and you have to remove them.

~~~
randrews
Actually they do that too... I was surprised the last time I saw a newly-
bought PC laptop at the number of random stickers all over it for the video
card, OS, whatever.

------
wvenable
I bought a few netbooks a year ago, I had to spend over an hour uninstalling
all the bloatware -- I had a farm of them on my coffee table running the
uninstallers on each simultaneously.

------
motters
Firstly, I thought the official term for this was "crapware".

Secondly, there is a technological solution to the crapware menace. It's
called a Linux installation CD (or USB drive).

------
Bud
Uh, just get a Mac. As a bonus, you will receive an OS which actually works.

------
jancona
Instead of just complaining, why don't these guys review the machines as-
delivered, with the bloatware in place? That would give the potential consumer
an idea of what there up against.

