

Need your opinion on PadKite, the first multitouch mobile mouse...shoot - JoseVigil
http://padkite.com

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darren_
It looks fiddly for constant use, but if it were toggleable, provided it's
quick to invoke (and difficult to accidentally invoke) it'd be great for the
situations where small links are a pain. Note that in this case it has to be
less effort to invoke than a zoom action.

I'm not sure how much people hate animated gifs but you might want to consider
adding a larger one, because I didn't get how the basic operation of the mouse
cursor worked until I watched the video (the descriptions and static graphics
didn't really explain much to me).

Also maybe make it a bit more obvious that it's android-only on the front
page.

~~~
fuzzythinker
Like the toggleable idea. Since a big part of it is about gestures, a '^'
gesture (their logo) can toggle it on, and 'v' for off.

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JoseVigil
Do you have a hammer in your hand fuzzythinker?. Cause I think you hit the
nail on the head.

Definitely our logo and symbol '^' means to fly and that is what the app
gives, power to fly. Invoking it on a friendly scenario for you with that
gesture and using it would be really cool right?.

Many good ideas guys. Lots of stuff to consider today.

Excellent!. Lets fly!. Kind regards.

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Anm
I agree with zachrose, but that doesn't mean there isn't a market for power
users who will appreciate this work.

My concern is that the primary multi-touch gestures choosen are two handed.
Unlike pinch, stretch, and swipe, holding onw finger in place while you begin
another gesture require more coordination than most people can do with one
hand. In my mind, this leaves it out of the realm of phone-sized devices on
the go. It probably works great when working on a table or desk, which means
it is really the mouse for a tablet environment. In that market, you may have
a real winner.

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JoseVigil
Hi Anm,

Years of work worth reading your feedback, appreciate very much.

I am very interested what you say here: "My concern is that the primary multi-
touch gestures chosen are two handed.". I think that ultimately there will
have to be a standard for handed, but an evolved set of gestures. I am working
on that, you know why?

I strongly believe that there has to be a balance in terms of handed gestures
to execute on what has been selected (our innovation, do a gesture on a
selection). There will be a time when gestures have to evolve to cope with
demanding tasks at home with multiple touch devices in almost all
glass/crystal/plastic surfaces, so there is going to be plenty of need. New
types of gestures that can be learned and reproduced fast. Nor the palm
graffiti type nor the imagery type (pinch, stretch, and swipe). New types.

Something is in the middle that can be worldwide interpreted and very easy to
execute, that is the key. As an example we created the Twitter peak ">"
gesture cause is fast and symbolic. That creation process has to be applied
many more times again for new gestures with an implicit action and a symbol.
Also the key can be to synthesize the gesture to a minimal expression.

Also, once the user has done the gesture four times, the fifth goes on its
own. So its all about learning curve. We humans have a great ability to
remember mechanical movements. I would love to have a more consistent
scientific background. Any doctor around?.

This is the way I think we can overcome the real problem and concern you are
pointing out and that I agree 100%. Of course tablet will be a superb place to
run PadKite.

Great feedback, really.

~~~
mhiceoin
"As an example we created the Twitter peak ">" gesture cause is fast and
symbolic."

That is a problem though. It is neither fast or symbolic if you do not know it
already or you have forgotten it.

What if this app had been out a long time ago and f was the gesture for
Friendster?

What about a single gesture that brings up a list of actions, a further click
then allows the user to post to facebook, tweet, email, or, Google it, etc.

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Tekahera
I wouldn't really call it a mouse, but it's a good idea to decouple the cursor
on a touch-screen from the point of finger contact, for visibility reasons.
Somehow, I don't seem to have this problem with the iPhone, it clicks the
right links almost all the time, but it used to drive me nuts on Android.
Maybe the screen is physically more precise on the iPhone, but this is
definitely solving a pain point for Android devices. The gesture system is
just the icing on the cake, it makes interaction so much smoother.

~~~
JoseVigil
Hi Tekahera, how would you explain that to your grandma?. We decided to go
colloquial and massive. Its a bet but certainly has arguments to say its a
multitouch mouse.

Cool comment, appreciate much.

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maerek
There was a really interesting panel at SXSW this year regarding the 'Future
of Touch User Interface' by two guys from Microsoft
(<http://schedule.sxsw.com/events/event_IAP5984>). I think trying to create a
mouse interface on a touch device is almost a regression, not a step forward.
I'd much rather see improved touch w/ voice integration, better multitouch,
etc.

~~~
JoseVigil
Its great to see the article on the future touch interface maerek.

As leader of RoamTouch and creator of its vision I can tell that we did not
decide to simulate a mouse at all. We saw the picture of the future (five
coming years) in 2006, the household and we are not improvising. Today PadKite
is a mouse and playful kite, its also the hook for a new type of integration
that aims to run on top of other applications and video, grow not only on the
tablet and smart phone but also to grow to be remote controlled in a living
room scenario (coming decade arena). PadKite is the proxy or bridge between
today and the future.

In my opinion the future of computer is tactile. It is the most effective way
to interact with a computer with the less energy consumption. The future is
not in voice and body movement recognition technology. I do not imagine a
working day (6-8 hs non stop) jumping or speaking, even moving arms to do 3D
stuff. Its all about energy consumption and the most effective way to use our
brains are with out hands, and millions of years have passed for that to be in
such way.

PadKite and the GestureKit are an approach to start thinking about the big
picture to come. It will be fun!.

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pedalpete
I really like the idea, but it seems from the video that the cursor is really
quite a distance from the users finger.

I agree that we may want a small degree of improvement, but I think it is
important to keep the simplicity of touch.

Can you maybe give some insight into why you decided to have such a large
distance from the users finger to the cursor? as opposed to just having a
cursor be an pointy extension to our fingers?

~~~
JoseVigil
Hi pedalpete,

BTW, the video is a spot and not meant to be accurate but highly
communicative.

We did that to make it wide opened to all sizes. We thought that the user was
the one who should decide, therefore the opened distance. After using the
mouse a couple of times, the user should adjust the finger to the best
distance according to his/her size. Now a very big finger fit and a small one
too. In the future you will be able to shrink the circle or enlarge it and
tune it best.

On the other hand there is a visible area factor that made us leave that
amount of size avalable to see. For example, when you are selecting content,
you need to know what is below, the same when you are just viewing the
different elements below the cursor.

A cursor in a point extension of your finger is a good solution but cannot
work alone, its not enought to create a real solution. You need to execute,
select, mark, etc. We could have stopped there like for example this project
did <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kkoFlDArYks>. They found the offset but
stopped there and didn't follow that great discovery, they kept on searching.
We, on the other hand focused on that point, the the two regions that now are
the mouse buttons allowed us to work on selection.

Hope I answered your question.

Cheers.

~~~
pedalpete
I couldn't have asked for a better answer. Thanks for explaining that. I
assumed you wouldn't have gone through all the work without dealing with that
issue, and was curious behind the reasoning.

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thekevan
I really don't understand the other negative posts. If this works half as well
as the video says, I would pay for it.

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revorad
This looks cool but why would people use this instead of pinch,zoom,click?

I feel the whole point of touch interfaces is to move away from using a mouse.
Instead of mobile touchscreen devices replicating desktop gestures, websites
will move towards designs more suitable for the new dominant platforms.
OnSwipe is a case in point.

The kite metaphor is interesting though. If this multimouse idea doesn't fly
(pun?), you could turn it into a kite wars game. Use proximity sensors (it's
the in thing) to pick up fights with people near you. Sharing photos with
strangers is not for me, but I will pick up a good kite fight challenge any
time.

Good luck!

~~~
JoseVigil
Because you can go faster.

The point is we want people to continue doing pinch, zoom and click so that
padkite is used only when needed. In fact outside the circle you can do all
that you already do.

It is not padkite OR the other thing, its padkite PLUS the other thing, which
is very handy. What is good has to be kept.

But if you want to fly.....you just invoke it.

Thanks very much.

~~~
revorad
Ok I just watched all of your demo videos again. Like others have pointed out,
this is for power users. The basic usage is complex enough, you have a TON of
other features.

A good demo video of someone using an app in an everyday situation, clearly
showing them holding the phone in one hand (not keeping it on a table), will
really help showcase padkite's power.

You've clearly built some amazing tech, but you need to educate people on how
to use it. You should seriously consider making a game which uses these
gestures, so people learn the gestures while having fun.

The Wii primed people for the Kinect.

~~~
JoseVigil
Hi revorad,

Absolutely right about the video with the showcase. We are already working on
a new script for it. These are the things that we will take care of before we
launch. Thanks lot for the comment.

As regarding the game, I have already thought that but its a very drafted idea
yet. I think this type of HTML game could help
<http://mrdoob.com/projects/chromeexperiments/ball_pool/>

We will also put more tiny links on the home page to pay with in order to both
enhance the concept and provide useful data to the user and small ads.

What do you think?.

Superb feedback.

~~~
revorad
That game is awesome!

Please keep us posted. Never fall off the radar, make some noise. Break a leg.

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zachrose
What if this is a solution in need of a more interesting problem?

I don't remember who said this, but hidden gestures in a multitouch device
have the exact same learning curve as command line: they are equally magical,
efficient, and completely insane in the eyes of people who haven't learned
them yet.

That's not to say that the command line is hard (it's not), or that Bash is
arbitrary and random (it has definite syntax and conventions).

But you're betting that people will use these new gestures to do the things
they're already doing. Maybe they're actually more interesting for drawing or
something?

~~~
JoseVigil
Hi zachrose,

Very interesting conversation, waited years for having them. Its good to see
smart guys around.

Gestures are old, Palm graffiti did a lot already but was a different
approach, they worked alone, not for the service of other gestures like ours.
We are bringing in new gestures and overcoming the imagery gesture paradigm.
First the selection gestures that we are "inventing" product of the offset
pointer and the two button areas. And second type the graffiti type, which are
a set of three to six gestures that the user will learn if he wants.

The novelty of what we are doing (quite a lot in terms of interaction) is that
our graffiti type (we call it our GestureKit, in fact is a brand) works in
conjunction and coordination with the selection gestures. It is an ongoing
process of doing three movements, drag-select-gesture which makes it very fast
and productive. The user could skip the latter but once the selection gesture
finger is lifted up and the content selected is very handy to do a last touch
down and make a gesture to command, for example the "S" for search on Google.
It could be whatever really.

Try it and tell me what you think please. These are not just command line
gesture, they belong to an interactive system that all parts together make
things much faster. The users know already to do that by other means, we are
offering to do it faster.

Thanks lot.

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keyvanraoufi
I think it's a very interesting concept. My only concern is using two fingers
for most of functions. Personally for me, it's not practical. Also, as the
video mentioned, our fingers are big and clunky, so an added finger would
block even more of the screen from the user. But I love the idea and the
effort put towards solving this problem.

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pero
So I've got this installed and from the looks of it, it's a web browser with
innovative interfacing--or am I missing something?

And like someone else already pointed out, one handed control is the holy
grail here...

~~~
JoseVigil
Hi pero,

We infact we implemented Padkite to be controlled with a single finger but we
left it aside cause multitouch gave more power. The problem was that the
selection gestures where not that good with single finger cause you need to
coordinate. What did work very well was the navigation experience and basic
stuff.

Do you think we should include an optional single finger model on the
settings?. It works like this: Drag, lift finger to select below and do a
gesture with same finger. All in one hand.

What do you think?. Let me know man, I am intrigued.

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TREYisRAD
Attempted to test it, but it crashed after I clicked "Skip" on the tutorial. I
am able to see a white screen with the cursor for about 2 seconds before it
closes. Using an Evo 4G running Cyanogenmod 7 RC2 (2.3).

~~~
JoseVigil
Hi TREYisRAD,

Apologize for that. Please let me know your email and I will come to you with
the proper build.

Mine is jose.vigil ad roamtouch dot com.

Thanks.

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antihero
It looks pretty cool, but the app just closes on my Desire (2.3.3), so I can't
really test it :(

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RK
While it is somewhat descriptive, I'm not a fan of the name.

~~~
JoseVigil
Oh that is nice. You know I thought the name cuase its playful and in a way
you are controlling something that is flying. But the most important thing is
that when you dont use it you leave it aside flying like a kite while you
continue working.

When you leave it aside you can do stuff as you already know, click, pan zoom.
But when you bring it in you fly.

BTW, the kite concept will be enhanced when you control it remotely in the
near future.

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plusbryan
OT, but that's gotta be the first progressive-loading GIF I've seen in like
ten years. In fact, at first I thought it was an animation.

