

Stop Calling Projects Startups - dariusmonsef
http://bmull.com/out-of-respect-for-people-actually-launching

======
rewind
I find that when it comes to these sorts of arguments that the people who
spend their time telling you what they think are usually the people who care
too much what other people think. Startup vs. Project? Computer Programmer vs.
Software Engineer? CEO vs. Single Founder?

It's all so completely irrelevant to who you are or what you're doing. It's
just noise.

~~~
fourstar
The #1 reason I have stopped actively coming to HN. Too many self-entitled
opinionated "authors" telling people what they should or shouldn't be doing
(especially when it's not even technically relevant).

Or should they be called "writers"?

~~~
Alex3917
You know what the difference between an author and a writer is? An author
writes.

~~~
derefr
I thought the difference was "an author _is published_." That doesn't
translate into the post-NYC-book-publishing-industry era, though, because "an
author _is read_ " doesn't convey the same idea—you can be read because of
viral marketing effects, but usually you're only _published_ because an editor
thinks your content is an investment that will make their publisher money.

~~~
tsuipen
I just signed on to express your first sentence, but you beat me to it!

I've been lurking for a short while on here and found out about HN because I
wanted to get into programming and the whole IT world. I find HN great for
those things, but as soon as they start posting "creative writing" material,
it's really only good for a chuckle. A lot of it competes with the self-
absorbed, snobby (Liberal) Arts, so-called objective, essay writing that I had
to put up with at university. They only base things on subjective meanderings.

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melling
Call your project whatever you want. Spend less time on HN, and don't waste
energy writing blogs that draw lines in the sand. Just keep making forward
progress on something of value.

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dasil003
I was going to just leave yet another comment here about what a pointless and
inconsequential rant this is. The title "out of respect for people actually
launching startups" is incredibly narcissistic. I don't give people respect
because what they do fits some meme, it's about specifics.

But all that aside, I actually do agree that calling projects startups is a
bad idea because it's not a subtle semantic difference—they are completely
different things! A project in this case really means an application, and a
startup is a company. Calling an application a startup is like calling the
internet a series of tubes, it just betrays a fundamental imprecision that is
anathema to the engineering instinct.

Note that this distinction has nothing to do with raising capital or how self-
important you are. You can run a business part-time, and if it's early-stage
then call it a startup. However if you're just putting some app out there
without any kind of business plan, then it really does sound silly to call it
a startup.

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techiferous
Here's the distinction I use:

If I'm building a business (focusing on money, market, customers, etc.) I call
it a startup. If I'm building a web app only (focusing on technology) I call
it a side project.

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Pahalial
How exactly is it disrespectful to other startups to call your side-project a
startup? This is the key assumption involved in this article, and it is not
actually addressed in the slightest.

I would argue it is far from disrespectful: the funded startups know who they
are; likewise with the YC/incubator startups; likewise with the full-time
startups.

I really don't see how it's _disrespectful_ to them to call your weekend
project a startup. Do you perhaps mean dilution of the term? I could perhaps
come around to that, but that's a far cry from any notion of respect; in fact,
I would argue that you are diluting the very idea of 'respect' by applying it
to this scenario.

Et tu, bmull?

~~~
bmull
Fair point, and you're right, what I meant was that by referring to something
that isn't a startup as a startup, I think it hurts the term startup. I know
so many people who have risked a ton to run a startup, and I'm seeing
frustration in the community when someone throws together something quickly,
releases it, and says "Here's my new startup" without really dedicating
themselves to it.

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Vivtek
I'd have to say if you have a credible plan to generate revenue, and are
implementing that plan, that's a startup. The rest of it is just means to that
end (i.e. parts of your particular plan).

Overall point seems pretty well-taken, though.

~~~
dancavallaro11
Sounds like Twitter hasn't even reached startup status, then.

~~~
Vivtek
Well, _really_ , I have to agree. I mean, they've been hanging fire on 2. ????
for a very long time now, and probably should have given more thought to the
question of project vs. startup before now.

Unless you just want to consider their equity revenue, which is basically how
the 90's worked anyway. "End of the business cycle" my ass. I'm still mad
about that.

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latch
For me the line is clear: you work/have a startup when it's your primary
"job".

I work at a bank from 8-6, then work on my projects evenings and weekends.
Pretty simple.

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JoshKalkbrenner
What category, if any, exists between 'startup' and 'project'. We registered
an entity, work full time (quit good paying gigs 8 months ago),and raised
small seed but have not earned much in terms of revenue. Comments such as "how
much money have you earned?", "...so you're not earning a salary?", "so you're
not working" might make your 'startup' feel like a hobby. Fingers up! We love
it! www.SpotBanks.com

~~~
Vivtek
That would be "startup".

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kingsidharth
Spot on!

I like to think of stages as below:

    
    
      Ideas > Experiment > Project > Startup
    

Not all of my ideas follow the model, but those are the stages I like to think
of.

Note to self: A blog post expanding one each satge.

~~~
bmull
Great idea! I like that model.

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mindcrime
I agree, there are a lot of people using the term "startup" when all they've
done is push an app to the Apple appstore or whatever. And if I could wave a
magic wand and change things, I'd have people stop doing that. But I'm
guessing that this particular ship has sailed, and that it's going to be hard
to get people to quit using the term that way.

I'm just glad that one of your conditions was "has registered a business
entity for a specific project" so that I can feel good about my own startup!
We haven't raised money or generated revenue yet, but the goal is absolutely
build a real, profitable, world-changing company.

~~~
bmull
Registering a company is such a pain in the ass, that if you're going to do
it, you're at least serious about this project existing for a while and you're
willing to put the time and effort into making it official. That shows enough
dedication in my opinion :)

~~~
Vivtek
PITA? Go to any CPA, give her $200, your LLC is done in an hour. How is that a
PITA?

Although maybe it's harder in your state. Indiana's LLC law is so easy you
don't even have to register who owns the LLC - just name a managing director
and you're good to go.

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wmboy
A startup is a business - that's what it's short for isn't it, "start up
business"? So a project is a project until it is something you want to turn
into a business. Then you can call it a startup.

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cj
Yeah, calling ourselves CEOs of projects was always one of my pet peeves.

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michaelpinto
People who have the time to blog about terminology aren't in a startup.

~~~
bmull
That's right. I'm not. I sold my startup last year and am working for the
acquirer. I'm building stuff on the side, and having fun. But those are
projects.

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newobj
I think I'm going to start employing policy debate's stock issues paradigm
(<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stock_issues>) to all proposals I see on HN.
So, with that:

Solvency: Flow that through for the aff, no argument.

Harms: Affirmative fails to illustrate any harms inherent in the status quo.
The plan should be thrown out on these grounds alone.

Inherency: Affirmative only proposes a semantic clarification to a sub genre
of internet message boards; no actual policy change is necessary to implement
this. Affirmative plan does not demonstrate that status quo cannot solve the
unspecified harms on its own. Flow this negative.

Topicality: No argument, flow aff.

Significance: Without any harms, the aff cannot claim any significance to
their plan. Flow this negative.

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arbales
Seriously — I'm insanely bored with the bajillion "CEO's" I meet per week.

~~~
BenSS
Ditto. I've been using Founder/Co-Founder instead, which is a lot more
accurate.

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rokhayakebe
Stop telling people what not to do. Wikipedia gives the following as a
description for a startup "A startup company or startup is a company with a
limited operating history. These companies, generally newly created, are in a
phase of development and research for markets.". So yes, a two hour project
can be a startup, just like a lemonade stand.

~~~
bmull
This is a great description, and I really appreciate you posting it. I might
update my blog with it, and really should have looked at Wikipedia too.
Thanks.

You make my point perfectly. Wikipedia is very clear to call it a "company."
That's what I'm saying. Two hour projects aren't companies (unless they file
to be an entity, which I believe makes it a startup - 3rd qualification bullet
in the post).

~~~
danielharan
Actually, the Wikipedia definition is also pretty useless. What's a "limited
operating history"?

Steve Blank put it best: "a startup is an organization formed to search for a
repeatable and scalable business model"

You could be searching for a repeatable and scalable business model in a week-
end, which would be awesome. Most people don't, and I find it really
irritating that these projects get called startups.

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prayag
Exactly the opposite. Start calling your projects start-ups. If you don't take
them seriously nobody will. Every line of code you write, every project you do
should be done with a purpose of building something great and making money off
of it. Aimless projects are abound but when you start calling a project a
start-up it changes your perspective. It means you are ready to work hard on
it. It means you are ready to spend countless nights tinkering with it. It
means you start caring for your users.

Projects are worthless, same projects when looked at from the point-of-view of
a start-up look like an opportunity.

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jeffreyrusso
I don't think I have a place calling other people out for the word they use to
describe what they are working on. That being said, I've started lots of
projects, but nothing I would call a startup. Some have generated revenue,
many have not, but none were really sustainable revenue generators that I saw
a future in.

I personally want to reserve the startup label for a project that evolves to
show its potential, and that I'm passionate about and ready to fully devote
myself to.

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Stealx
Can we also stop calling every entrepreneur with a "successful" exit an expert
and someone whose every word we need to live by... some are just lucky, if not
most.

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andrewheins
How does a "startup" differ from any other business? You write a business
plan, invest some saved-up capital, work your ass off, charge for your product
and hopefully bring in more money than you spend.

To me, the only thing "startup" seems to imply is that you don't have a real
business plan and a way to actually make money the way a "normal" business
would, which doesn't seem that great.

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DeepSeaRaisin
Basically, I'll know my project is a startup when I feel like it is a startup,
regardless of whether someone else agrees. Clearly this method breaks down
when taken to the extremes, but for my purposes, I'm fine with it.

The startup term is very muddy and I have seen it applied to big projects,
little projects, big organizations, one to two person coders, well funded, no
funding--etc. Like art, I don't view its lack of a clear definition to be a
bad thing. There might be a number of shared characteristics that are
generally found in art (or a startup), but their absence in part or in whole
doesn't necessarily mean the piece isn't art or the project/group doesn't
qualify as a startup.

If we can draw a clear line for the purposes of labeling something or
something a startup, that's fine and I'd be inclined to accept it if it's
universally accepted. I just hope that it doesn't serve to delegitimize
people's work if they disagree with one's assertion that X is not a startup.

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nutanc
So basically, you have attacked the whole <http://startupweekend.org>
philosophy :).Incidentally we actually had a discussion along these lines at
hackerstreet sometime back <http://hackerstreet.in/item?id=5076>

Personally, does it matter what someone calls their idea, project or startup?
I am sure, some one will call their weekend idea as a startup only if they are
planning on monetizing it. Projects are different. We have hundreds of
thousands of projects on sourceforge and other sites.They do not call
themselves as startups.

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BasDirks
To summarize: "Stop calling projects startups because finally I feel special
in life".

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Johngibb
To go along with the recent post "My fellow geeks, we need to have a talk."
(<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2322696>)...

Who cares? Let's just embrace the fact that a simple side project could very
well turn into a profitable business in the field we're all operating in? How
does a rant bring more to the table than someone calling a side project a
startup? (whatever the distinction may be)

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MatthewPhillips
Along the same lines, can we stop calling all coding "hacking". Unless you are
accessing features of an API that it doesn't intend you to access, you are not
hacking.

~~~
onan_barbarian
The second sentence is not supported by any of the historical uses of the word
"hacking", whether it's the original one (a vaguely defined definition
involving deep knowledge and stretching the limits of computing systems) or
the debased one ("breaking into computers"). Many of the earliest 'hacks'
occurred well in advance of any defined APIs for anything but are still
clearly recognizable as hacks (e.g. some of the clever tricks in HAKMEM, for
example). Dividing a number by a constant but multiplying by a magic number is
a hack, for example, but no API has been violated here.

That's a shame, because recognizing the distinction between "mere coding" and
"hacking" would be a good idea.

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Smirnoff
I think every person who has built a product has the right to call it a
startup. And honestly it doesn't matter what you call it.

It is definitely better to call a project a startup than to call a startup as
a startup, which has never delivered a product.

Your LLC with no product might be a startup but it is far away from being a
real project. And real project with real product is what matters to me.

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nikcub
"I'm not writing this to be a dick."

glad we cleared that up, saves me leaving a comment

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ldh
I guess my reading HN is a bit incongruous with this opinion, but I'm kind of
sick of the fetishization of startups in general.

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ebaysucks
Stop Writing Linkbait Articles.

Come to think about it, that would be an awesome linkbait article.

