

Getting to 'No' - hawke
http://www.jacquesmattheij.com/Getting+to+No

======
dpapathanasiou
This reminded me a little bit of Stephen Potter's " _Gamesmanship_ " advice on
how to become known as a master chess player: start with an arbitrary 4, 5
moves and then resign.

Before resigning, spend a lot of time muttering things like " _I could go
there, but of course he'd get me 10 moves later_ ", etc.

It will seem that you are a genius, able to look far ahead into the game,
processing a multitude of scenarios.

~~~
jacquesm
Knowing the boundaries of your expertise, knowing when to pass a job on to an
entity that is more experienced and knowing which customers are a 'good fit'
and which are not is a winning strategy.

Giving up on a game like chess before you've even properly tried is a losing
strategy.

Playing with your customers as though the success or failure of what you
undertake with them is a game is also a losing strategy.

I really don't see the analogy between playing games and running a business,
if you approach your customers as though it is fine to learn on the job when
you know in advance that you do not have the required knowledge or skills to
perform the job then I really hope you will not be found wanting.

Likely you will end up in court for non-performance and likely you will lose.

You should take your business and your relationships with your customers a lot
more serious than you would take a game of chess.

~~~
dpapathanasiou
It's not a serious analogy by any means, nor am I suggesting that you should
run your business or career in the same way Potter conducted his leisure hours
(which were hysterical, at least in his telling of them).

It was just what came to mind immediately when I started reading your post.

I actually started reading thinking that you were going to talk about Jim
Camp's " _Start with No_ " negotiation technique, but your point was entirely
different.

------
apinstein
This is one of my all-time favorite anti-patterns. Whether it's Linus's
"rejecting kernel patches is one of the important things I do" or Michael
Porter's "strategy is about the things you choose not to do" or Miles Davis'
"jazz is about the notes you leave out", no is an often overlooked but
extremely powerful tool. _quotes paraphrased_

~~~
crusso
Besides the word "no", the concept in this article is completely different.

Jobs and Linus were talking about being discriminating in the things they
choose to do for the sake of the things themselves.

The article this thread is based upon is about building trust from potential
clients by being honest with them and helping them to solve their problems
altruistically rather than trying to line your pockets by taking on work that
you're not qualified to do well. This is more of a real-life use of karma.

~~~
apinstein
I disagree completely. The article is one example of the "sometimes not doing
something is better than doing it" anti-pattern, it just is in the sales
category.

~~~
crusso
Sure, at a certain level of abstraction, everything is related to everything.
The situations in which you would use the design methodology of simplification
really has nothing to do with the reason the original author of this article
is recommending not taking on some client work.

On top of all of this, why do you use the term "anti-pattern"?

I don't think that word means what you think it means:
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-pattern>

~~~
apinstein
I still disagree :)

Who said anything about simplification? I think "the design methodology of
simplification" is a) not what the article is about IMO, and b) orthogonal to
the idea of the power of not trying to do everything that crosses your desk.

The anti-pattern is that in many circles it's essentially a best practice to
do everything. Sales guys sell everything, even if it's not in the wheelhouse
of the company. Software guys add features that they should probably have the
courage to say no to. Musicians over-do their music (ie trying to show off).
So that's the anti-pattern; people realize that sometimes saying no is better
than the alleged best practice of always finding a way to say yes.

I will admit I certainly could've worded things better, but I was writing from
my phone and that tends to decrease my willingness to craft better comments.

That said, the book "Getting to Yes" which is the inspiration for the
article's title isn't at all about always saying yes. It's about principled
negotiation. It is an amazing book; there's a reason it's standard fare in the
MBA world. I would argue that someone practicing principled negotiation would
say no in the situation of the article as well; in that sense the articles
title is kinda just a cheesy headline (but still nice, it made me click on
it).

------
scott_w
One way of getting to "no" is to put forward a high price, particularly if
it's something you don't actually want to do.

What I like to do is put a number at about double what I consider it to be
worth. This basically reflects the fact that I'd be spending weekends working,
but also isn't so high as to be insulting - we're not talking huge numbers
here.

The upside is they might say "yes", in which case you're getting what you
consider a good rate for your time.

The downside is that they might say "yes", in which case they may expect
higher quality for the price that you put forward.

This is also troublesome if you don't know the going rate, and unintentionally
put a low-ball offer in.

Clearly if you want to just say "no", and have no interest whatsoever, then
telling the client "no... but" is probably a better option.

~~~
drieddust
"The downside is that they might say "yes", in which case they may expect
higher quality for the price that you put forward."

I have seen this in action at big outsourcing firms. It has almost always
results is poor relations afterwards.

~~~
crusso
Right, that's because charging a really high fee for something that you don't
know how to do puts you in the "dishonest" category very easily. Rarely do you
want to pay some contractors to learn on your dime.

Hell, if someone is going to pay me to learn something new, I don't normally
charge them EXTRA for the privilege.

------
jpastika
I recently began experiencing and practicing exactly what this post describes.
The startup I co-founded began receiving leads and of course not all leads are
a good fit for our product. I'm a developer and have never been in a sales
role previously, but when you are the only salaried employee and a co-founder,
you do what needs to be done. So I've been following up with the leads and in
a five minute conversation it becomes clear if our solution is the best
solution. When I started, I made the mistake of trying to convince everyone
that our product could do everything they wanted. Then I realized this tactic
was not only exhausting, but ultimately would lead to dissatisfied, short-term
customers. Once I made the switch to using the same techniques the OP
describes, not only was the sales process far less stressful, but I found
myself enjoying talking to people and just trying to help them. If our
solution is a good fit, great, but if it isn't, I'm not going to BS you. I
have been thanked over and over for being transparent and honest, something
people apparently aren't generally used to when dealing with sales people. At
the end of the day I'd much rather be a helpful person than a sales person.

~~~
apinstein
You should definitely read Porter's "What is Strategy", it should blow your
mind: <http://hbr.org/product/what-is-strategy/an/96608-PDF-ENG> (paywall)

It will help you develop a clear strategy for your company / product; once you
have that in place it becomes very easy for you (or anyone using your activity
maps) to decide whether something is a good fit or not. It's because of this
book that we have a "Strategic Fit" rank which we use in our product
management process. The only others are estimated time (cost) and estimated
value (revenue).

------
lesterbuck
Jason Cohen blogged about this effect surrounding Bill Erickson, a Wordpress
consultant, who turns down clients when he knows he can't be sure they will
have a great experience using his services:

<http://blog.asmartbear.com/improving-the-worst.html>

------
taylorbuley
If you're looking to read up on negotiation, "Getting to Yes" (mentioned by
Jacques) is good but a bit warm/fuzzy.

For a first book, try Wharton prof Richard Shell's Bargaining for Advantage:
[http://www.amazon.com/Bargaining-Advantage-Negotiation-
Strat...](http://www.amazon.com/Bargaining-Advantage-Negotiation-Strategies-
Reasonable/dp/0143036971)

