

Argentina: The Superpower that Never Was (& Why the US Ascended) - cwan
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/2/778193e4-44d8-11de-82d6-00144feabdc0.html

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alfredb
(disclaimer : I'm French). Instead of answering the US-bashing comment, better
read what Nikola Tesla has to say about the US in 1919 :

 _I wish that I could put in words my first impressions of this country. In
the Arabian Tales I read how genii transported people into a land of dreams to
live thru delightful adventures. My case was just the reverse. The genii had
carried me from a world of dreams into one of realities. What I had left was
beautiful, artistic and fascinating in every way; what I saw here was
machined, rough and unattractive. A burly policeman was twirling his stick
which looked to me as big as a log. I approached him politely with the request
to direct me. "Six blocks down, then to the left," he said, with murder in his
eyes. "Is this America?" I asked myself in painful surprise. "It is a century
behind Europe in civilization." When I went abroad in 1889 - five years having
elapsed since my arrival here - I became convinced that it was more than one
hundred years AHEAD of Europe and nothing has happened to this day to change
my opinion._

\-- extract from "My Inventions"

~~~
euroclydon
Very difficult to follow: "...five years since having elapsed here" Where is
here? "...it was more than one hundred years AHEAD" Who was ahead? Didn't he
just say America was behind? Also he went abroad in 1889, five years after
having arived here? What??? I though this was from 1919? Plus, he went from
where to where, and when?

~~~
sp332
OK, so when he arrived, he thought America was 100 years behind. Five years
later, he had become convinced that America was 100 years ahead, and even
after re-visiting Europe, he still hasn't gone back to his old way of
thinking.

------
yardie
The story seems like a wankfest on American dogoodery. Argentina and the US
had similar economies in the early 19th century. End of story. They diverged
after that and Argentina handled one disaster after another very poorly.
America chose a different path. But, the author seems to have a very different
history book than the one I had. The land wasn't free native Americans had
lived on the land. But the policy of Manifest Destiny meant they couldn't be
included in the developing country, ever. He also conveniently glides over the
role the US had in destabilizing Central and South America.

The US economy has been very successful, but make no mistake there is nothing
lucky or virtuous about it. If other countries, people, or economies had to be
destroyed to further it's goals they were very good at that.

~~~
cwan
I think you might have a point if the success of the US economy was the result
of the failure of others but that's simply not the case (and this is also why
Argentina seems like a fairly apt pairing given that Argentina also had people
who preceded the colonists who lived there).

Examples abound of countries who have pursued more liberal economic policies
like that of the US who have done tremendously better than those who took
routes similar to Argentina (e.g. take Hernando De Soto's work on property
rights for example or any myriad of economic/regulatory indicators used by the
World Bank/Economic freedom index). If you want to see countries whose people
and economies were truly destroyed, look at those who sided with and aligned
their economic views with the rivals of the US (e.g. Soviet republics) or
Peronists like Argentina.

~~~
radu_floricica
Yup, Hernando de Soto said it very well. There are vastly different kinds of
capitalism in the world right now, and US (and Europe) simply have the kind
which worked. Living in an ex-comunist country I know the other kind
reasonably well: looks the same on the surface, but beneath it's state control
all the way. Not a dictatorship nor communism, but a different system
altogether. Fortunately my country (Romania) seems to have gotten on a better
path lately.

------
ckinnan
The frightening thing is that the U.S. is now pursuing Argentine-style fiscal
policy with massive new borrowing and spending, and the specter of
protectionism is emerging here with all of the new subsidies and bailouts for
domestic automakers, banks, and insurers.

~~~
ZeroGravitas
"the spectre of protectionism is _emerging_ "? " _new_ borrowing and
spending"? " _new_ subsidies and bailouts"?

You give the impression that you only started paying attention to what your
government does in the last few months. These things have gone on for decades
(at the very least).

~~~
ckinnan
I was a staffer for the U.S. House Budget Committee in the mid-1990s so I've
been quite informed for some time. This year's budget _deficit_ is going to be
greater than the entire federal budget in 2000. Basically since 2002 spending
discipline broke down, but the process has accelerated over the past 12
months.

------
forinti
It's hard to be a superpower with 37 million people, but in 1900 Argentina
didn't yet have 5 million. And in 1950 it hadn't reached 20. Uruguay was vrey
rich in the 1950s, yet it had no influence in the world because it only had 2
million inhabitants.

~~~
baguasquirrel
Argentina has a land area of 2,736 thousand sq km. The US has a land area of
9,161 thousand sq km. So Argentina is only has about 1/3rd the land mass that
the US does.

However, the extent of the U.S. land mass is bounded in the west by the
Rockies and the deserts of the Great Basin, so in reality, the amount of
arable land that both countries started out with is comparable. The arable
Argentinian Pampas is closer to the coast than are the plains of the U.S. Just
as importantly, the rivers in Argentina flow East-West, whereas the U.S. have
the Appalachians between the East coast starting point and the breadbasket.
This gives Argentina a STRONG head start in terms of being able to easily
populate and exploit the arable interior.

In this light, Argentina should have had a higher initial population than the
U.S. did. Argentinian farmers didn't have to clear fields for rocks as did the
farmers of New England. They didn't have to cross the Cumberland gap or clear
trees for farms in NY.

~~~
ryanwaggoner
_However, the extent of the U.S. land mass is bounded in the west by the
Rockies and the deserts of the Great Basin, so in reality, the amount of
arable land that both countries started out with is comparable._

Finally, something I can use WA for :)

[http://www19.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=argentina+arable+land...](http://www19.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=argentina+arable+land+vs.+us)

------
srwh
As an Argentinian I see a core point missing: evolving Corruption In this
crisis US can't differentiate between free market and corruption. Why S&P and
other rating agencies gave AAA to AIG? it was really a miscalculation?

But to be realistic Argentina is infinite far from US. US has the opportunity
to heal itself while Argentina future is very dark.

~~~
tokenadult
_I see a core point missing: evolving Corruption_

I think part of the argument here is that concentrating property rights into
the hands of the few rather than the many, especially if the few control the
government, makes corruption much more likely. International comparisons
(mentioned in other comments in this thread) tend to show that countries with
lots of private ownership of the means of production and minimal role of
central government in operating the economy tend to have less corruption.

------
ulvund
Documentary on the events that led to the economic collapse of Argentina in
2001:

<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rH6_i8zuffs>

------
anamax
It is interesting that outsiders keep buying Argentina's soverign debt even
though it has repudiated said debt a couple of times in recent memory.

------
markessien
The economic system of Argentina as described sounds like the one of Zimbabwe
prior to the farm seizures.

------
ZeroGravitas
Ars Technica recently referred to one of the moments that, according to this
account, made America what it was.

They draw a parallel with current filesharing lawsuits and point out that in
the past the government favoured thieves ('squatters') over the property
owners.

[http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/news/2008/03/copyright-
cr...](http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/news/2008/03/copyright-crusade.ars)

It's also a minor subplot in the Deadwood TV series.

------
sown
So what happened to people's savings in Argentina during 2001, 2002?

~~~
fsoteras
Hi , I am Argentinian. Some savers who sued the banks had their money back but
not due interests (my personal case). IMHO the French commenter is right , US
recepted lots more imigrants and way more technicaly skilled ones (Tesla is a
great example of turn-of-centrury ideal inmigrant ,he was an electronics guru
and workaholic). I think that failure of importing/training enough technicians
was far more important factor causing the "stop and go" development of my
homeland than the disastrous political cycle. Also an early comercial success
in the first wave of globalization set the stage for too high
expectations.Turn-of-century Argentina had the same chance to achieve
superpower status as Sudafrica or Australia. The future of my country is not
grim we are a young vibrant country wih lots of hackers (and nobody want to
blast us with nuclear weapons).

~~~
sown
I've always thought Buenos Aries seemed like a good city to move to.

------
TweedHeads
To understand progress you must understand corruption for absolute power
corrupts absolutely, and absolute corruption destroys all traces of progress.

Dictatorships exterminate thinkers, the fuel of progress, and turn great
workers into mindless servants.

A ten year dictatorship can turn the clock backwards a hundred years, or more.

Cleptocracy, the modern dictatorship with a democratic facade, are far worse,
they look completely legit, approved by the people, but they are just a maffia
whose only purpose is to use and abuse the country's resources for their own
benefit while manipulating the law to perpetuate themselves in power.

Just take a look at every single latin american country touched by a leftist
wave of "socialism" changing their constitutions at will just to allow
continuous reelections to stay in power forever.

May God save the US from a cleptocracy.

 _todo: s/God/science/_

