

Turkey charges pianist Fazil Say over Twitter posts - ozgune
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/02/world/europe/turkey-charges-pianist-fazil-say-over-twitter-posts.html

======
tjic
It can happen here.

I made a joke over Twitter and the cops seized a $15k firearm collection and I
racked up $15k in legal bills.

No warrants, no charges, no actual investigation. Lots of tricks, lies to my
lawyer, backtracking, etc.

I'd love to have my day in court because the joke was taken out of context
from a long discussion of Just War Theory (which was being read and enjoyed by
dozens of people, including some First Ammendment lawyers), but even in the US
the authorities have the ability to leave you hanging in limbo for years.

Footnote:

<http://borepatch.blogspot.com/2011/01/i-am-tjic.html>

~~~
dr42
If you threaten a US senator, and you have stockpiled this many weapons, I
think you really should have seen this one coming.

~~~
tjic
> If you threaten a US senator

Absolutely agreed.

If some nut case puts up a website with the home address of someone, rants
about a bounty on their head, etc., by all means, have an investigation and
perhaps charges.

...but there's a difference between saying "This SOPA bill is insane. Rope.
Lampposts." and driving to a person's house with a noose in the back seat.

~~~
nupark2
... and there you go doing it again.

There's not much room to joke about assassination and lynchings in a country
that has a very recent history of assassinations and lynchings.

It's in bad taste, it can incite violence, and given your statements here, as
well as those you've made elsewhere, I'm unsurprised that the law came down on
you.

~~~
tjic
> ... and there you go doing it again.

No, there YOU go doing it again. That comment was in a long thread of context,
and you willfully ignored that. The comment was also non-actionable and was
clearly political hyperbole.

> There's not much room to joke about assassination and lynchings in a country
> that has a very recent history of assassinations and lynchings.

Sure there is.

It's little thing called "the first amendment". Perhaps you've heard of it?
Read it closely. It makes no reference to "...unless there were lynchings in
the last century".

~~~
nupark2
> _No, there YOU go doing it again. That comment was in a long thread of
> context, and you willfully ignored that. The comment was also non-actionable
> and was clearly political hyperbole._

Not really, no. SOPA actually exists, and you joked about hanging its
supporters. The only context that would have made it remotely appropriate is
neutral one, in which it was clear to any observers that encouraging the
hanging of SOPA supporters (even 'jokingly') was _not_ your position.

> _It's little thing called "the first amendment". Perhaps you've heard of it?
> Read it closely. It makes no reference to "...unless there were lynchings in
> the last century"._

Then let me rephrase: There's no room to joke about lynching elected
representatives (or anyone) in _civilized mature discourse._

There is also a long history of case law that restricts "fighting words",
despite the first amendment.

My only take-away from your repeated reference to assassination/lynching is
that you're someone who is likely to incite if not participate in violence,
and beyond that, you personally decrease the overall quality of rational
discourse in US politics.

You may not be enough of a nutcase to try to assassinate a politician -- I'm
honestly not sure, given your remarks here, and your ownership of the tools to
do so -- but your seeming need to joke about assassination contributes to a
culture of political violence that may very well incite someone to do what you
won't.

------
cahteinp138
It reminds me of the Fabrice Muamba case [1]:

 _A student has been jailed for 56 days for posting offensive comments on
Twitter about the on-pitch collapse of Bolton Wanderers footballer Fabrice
Muamba._

 _District judge John Charles told Stacey: "It was racist abuse via a social
networking site instigated as a result of a vile and abhorrent comment about a
young footballer who was fighting for his life. At that moment, not just the
footballer's family, not just the footballing world but the whole world were
literally praying for his life. Your comments aggravated this situation._

How can a tweet aggravate someone's medical condition beats me.

[1] <http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-17515992>

------
Tichy
Scary, because Turkey aims to join the EU. I hope they won't be accepted as
long as such things are going on.

Sadly I think some countries that are dominated by radical Christians have
already joined :-(

~~~
reyan
I think the pro-Islamic government has clearly shifted policies after 2005
accession talks. Nevertheless Islamic fundamentalism is nothing new in Turkey
[1].

[1] <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sivas_massacre>

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narzac
Turkey is in a transition process which will turn it into an islamic piece of
shit country like Iran. Secular holly crap :) From the perspective of current
prime minister of Turkey Atheist = Thinner-addict

------
mahmud
I know Islam is the cry-baby of organized religions, but the Turkish state
(specially the secular military junta tha runs the show) uses these sort of
thought crimes to both silence opposition, and also to pander to the right-
wing factions.

~~~
ozgune
This has nothing to do with the secular military. In fact, the current pro-
Islamic administration has imprisoned more than 10% of the generals in the
military (trial ongoing for four years); and recently started "cracking down"
on liberal journalists, NGOs, artists, professors, and so forth. This trial
seems to be a continuum of those crack downs.

~~~
makmanalp
This. The ongoing "Ergenekon" case is the poster child of jail without
prosecution.

We think you're guilty, so we'll toss you in jail. But we can't come up with
your charge right now because we're in the process of writing it. But you're a
flight risk so it's okay.

I'm fine with people being punished for crimes but a lot of people were kept
in for years before they were even charged. Some of them barely maintained
their health and sanity. This is the sort of fascist-style suppression AK and
Erdogan regularly engage in to make an example of people.

This is not very comprehensive but okay:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ergenekon_(organization)#Debat...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ergenekon_\(organization\)#Debate_on_Ergenekon)
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_suspects_in_the_Ergene...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_suspects_in_the_Ergenekon_investigation)

Meanwhile, I get extremely angry when Erdogan and his gang enjoy hero status
in the Western press because they have taken steps to allow headscarves in
government institutions. They did this not because of human rights, they did
it to appeal to their heavily anti-secular constituency. Never mind the
Ergenekon case and other horrors that AK is part of!

For a long time, he's vocally sought to increase tax on or ban alcohol, he's
also suggested that everyone have multiple children, and recently his
administration has spoken out against abortions, saying that he shall ban
them. Whether this will happen is doubtful but I hope it sheds some light into
what sort of people we're dealing with.

~~~
jk4930
First, I don't see Erdogan et al. being styled as heros in the Western media
(except for the self-hating, more left-leaning ones). We know very clear that
their politics isn't about human rights but re-islamization.

Second, they run a pretty Nazi-like agenda: pure Turkish blood ideology (when
it comes to marriages), supporting demographic pressure, strict top-down
government, militarization, ideological intolerance, brutal assimilation of
Kurds and other minorities, one can even count their recent anti-Israel
doctrine and their attempts to establish themselves as the protector of Muslim
interests and their volkisch politics to protect the Turkish immigrants in
Western Europe (where they clearly influence politicians of Turkish origin and
use their network of mosques and religious institutions to steer "their"
population). It's a neo-Osmanic power game similar to what the Nazis did in
the 1930s.

------
sepeth
There is something terribly wrong with this country! Fazil Say is not the
first:

[http://www.cartoonistsrights.org/recent_developments_article...](http://www.cartoonistsrights.org/recent_developments_article.php?id=24)

------
baby
I thought Turkey was a secular country?

~~~
asto
Is there such a thing as a Muslim dominated country that's secular?

~~~
ebiester
Think the equivalent to the Republican party in the US.

~~~
cglace
Because only the democrats have seen the light? Just because republicans
pander to ensure they get votes from a certain base does not mean all
republicans are fundamentalists. Some of us vote republican because there
isn't a viable libertarian candidate.

~~~
ebiester
Ah, but not all AKP voters are Islamist. The similarity is that both are
primarily a union of social conservatives and pro-business voters (primarily
-- Libertarianism as such isn't really common in Turkey from what I've seen,
and analogies are rarely perfect.)

But if you don't think that the discourse in the Republican party isn't
heavily influenced by Christianists...

(And the two countries' opposition parties are quite different.)

------
aurora72
I'm a citizen of Turkey and in this lovely country the religion has often been
used as a tool for achieving secular aims. That's just another example of it.

~~~
asto
Turkey and its people look really nice on TV shows/documentaries! It sucks
that your government is the way it is; anybody who values their freedom and
exercises their right to free speech against anybody/anything would be too
scared to visit regardless of how much they'd like to experience your culture
first hand. (me included)

------
tigerweeds
when did this happen? circa 1500 A.D.? oh, wait...

------
J3L2404
I may hate what you say but I will fight to the death to defend your right to
say it.

------
soc88
He's an atheist, so nothing wrong about it for those in 'MURICA.

------
hellerbarde
Nobody has the right to never be offended. Y u no understand that, Turkey?

------
utku_karatas2
Flagged. Every country has its own laws. News at Eleven.

This guy always had provocative speeches just for the sake of being
provocative and the center of attention. More debatable and provocative stuff
is circulated by columnists in everyday papers. It's just this guy is a little
bit more prolific and annoying. Probably some district prosecutor just took a
jab.

