
‘Sea Slaves’: The human misery that feeds pets and livestock - lkurtz
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/07/27/world/outlaw-ocean-thailand-fishing-sea-slaves-pets.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&module=second-column-region&region=top-news&WT.nav=top-news
======
rynprkr9
It's very sad that Lang Long had to go through all the brutal hardship, and it
is overwhelmingly tragic for him and his sisters to be in such a horrible
misfortune. I came to the U.S. around the age of ten and worked as a night-
shift cleaner for parking lots, cleaning up people's feces and urine on the
floor of a business complex, getting hit by maggot filled trash bags when
trying to pack them into dumpsters, grocery store / restaurant cashier and
sweeper, and suffered from depression after parents got divorced, and later in
life was devastated after my father committed suicide, in several occasions
planned out in detail my own suicide but was too scared to go through with it,
but whenever I read articles like these I feel that what I went through was
nothing.

Although I'm buried in debt now, I'm glad I had the opportunity to go through
university and study the sciences which guided me in taking the proper
direction in life - the U.S. is definitely one of those few places in the
world where opportunities are far more accessible.

My initial reaction to these types of articles is filled with empathy and
sorrow and hope that people like Lang Long will have better future, but to be
honest and be for real, in certain aspects, and in current era, we depend (in
many cases we're not even aware of it) on the labors of people around the
world in unfortunate circumstances so that we can benefit from them - the ugly
side of this is... that the world is... an unforgiving place - there's gotta
be someone out there doing the dirty work for someone else, I'd imagine that
even the sea-slave traffickers themselves are trying to survive no different
than Lang Long is, albeit in this particular case, they're brutal and
inhumane.

I hope for a day when all slaves are treated humanely or slavery completely
abolished, and for the day humanoid machines or drones will take the place of
humans (in more efficient way) in back-breaking work so that criminals like
the traffickers will have less incentives to kidnap and put vulnerable people
into inhumane slavery.

~~~
chaostheory
I imagine this is why organizations like these exist

[http://kiva.org/](http://kiva.org/)

[http://watsi.org/](http://watsi.org/)

Microloans and micro donations really improve lives in the 3rd world.

~~~
jhaglund
Except that's not really true.

[http://www.bloomberg.com/bw/articles/2013-05-30/new-
research...](http://www.bloomberg.com/bw/articles/2013-05-30/new-research-
indicates-microloans-dont-solve-poverty)

[http://www.citylab.com/housing/2015/01/do-microloans-
really-...](http://www.citylab.com/housing/2015/01/do-microloans-really-help-
the-poor/384877/)

~~~
chaostheory
The articles you cite doesn't really disprove my comment.

> But what about the lending organizations on the ground—should they close up
> shop? Karlan says no. They're doing exactly what they promised to investors:
> making money and creating some good while they’re at it. For instance, the
> studies also found that, in Mexico, microcredit helped women pay off their
> debts.

Besides my main point is that yes things suck, but we can always find ways to
either fix it or make it suck less and less over time. I'm not stuck on any
particular solution.

------
phantom_oracle
I know the media likes to paint a bleak picture of the world cause that is
what drives clicks to their sites and keeps their ad businesses rolling, but
...

Doesn't it feel like the world has constantly been in this constant state of
extreme suffering and extreme joy both co-existing in the modern era of
humanity?

For all the talk of progress a country may paint, they are either engaging in
oppressive tactics locally or abroad.

This seems to apply to a vast majority of countries throughout the world.

I don't like to blame an ideology for humanities woes, because it is just
that: an ideology.

It does however seem that this unfettered capitalism has churned a greed so
strong that those in power will do anything to keep their money-machines
rolling.

Eg.

\- Oil spills that indefinitely damage ocean-life for decades,centuries ...

\- Women and Child-trafficking to keep the prostitution industry going

\- Drug-smuggling, human-smuggling and all other types of smuggling to keep
those industries going

It almost feels like it never got worse, it just got more exposure and that
its always been there, in the dark corners where we are scared to look,
because we'd much rather shelter our lives with a quasi-happiness that ignores
such an extreme-suffering of our fellow man/woman/child.

I blame us all, starting with myself.

~~~
wamsachel
>It almost feels like it never got worse, it just got more exposure and that
its always been there,

It's harrowing that the 20th century was labeled a century of genocide, when
in reality it was the century that started exposing and denouncing it.

~~~
AnimalMuppet
Also the century that perfected and industrialized it.

But yes, the exposure and outrage and "never again" is legitimately
progress...

~~~
ptaipale
However, post 1990, the number of people killed in wars and conflicts has gone
down significantly.

------
tzs
The story, and other stories linked in some of the comments, concern terrible
things that happen to people in poor countries involved in producing things
for rich countries.

If those stories have not sufficiently depressed you, take a look at what
happens to much of our stuff when we are done with it, and much of it ends up
back in poor countries for salvage.

[http://www.npr.org/2010/12/21/132204954/after-dump-what-
happ...](http://www.npr.org/2010/12/21/132204954/after-dump-what-happens-to-
electronic-waste)

[http://news.discovery.com/tech/indias-poor-risk-slow-
death-r...](http://news.discovery.com/tech/indias-poor-risk-slow-death-
recycling-e-waste.htm)

------
IndianAstronaut
Thailand is a huge culprit here and they get away with it because they managed
to sandwich themselves as valuable allies to the west.

I do wonder if there is any sort of image parsing and other analysis we can do
on the oceans to spot these slave vessels.

~~~
anon8418
Having traveled to Thailand I was pretty shocked at how open(ly exploitive)
and shameless the sex trade there is.

I've always wondered why the Thai government and King are okay with condoning
the massive sex tourism industry there (the majority of which is built to
serve foreigners... which stands in contrast to the sex industries in other
Asian countries). Don't they know that in the western world, Thais are at the
butt of all the stereotypical sucky-sucky-me-so-horny jokes?

I find it unbelievably demeaning culturally... and it seems so contradictory
to the otherwise prideful Thai culture...

Any local Thais care to comment?

~~~
jpatokal
Thailand's sex industry is indeed massive, but the vast majority of it caters
to Thais; the bits that target Westerners -- a few dozen gogo bars in a
country of 67 million -- just happen to have a much higher profile.
Essentially all the women working in it are there of their own free will, if
almost always because of economic hardship. (Typical scenario: Poor rural girl
gets pregnant, boy disappears/dies in traffic accident. Girl can't support
child and herself with farm labor or factory work, so she leaves the kid with
grandparents and goes off to Pattaya.)

And oh: the "me so horny" line comes from Full Metal Jacket, a Vietnam war
movie.

~~~
anon8418
I think comparatively, Thai's sex industry is way more foreign-friendly than
any of the other asian countries (with maybe the exception of Phillipines).

And yes, I do know the genesis of the "me so horny" line, but my point still
stands. Thailand, especially the seedier aspects, is synonymous with "sex
tourism" in the west.

Compare the image of Thailand's sex industry with say that of Amsterdam's red
light district...

~~~
stickfigure
You are massively overstating the case. While I'm vaguely aware from various
news stories that sex tourism does exist in Thailand, it's hardly the first
thing that comes to mind. Food and diving have 40X and 13X and more google
hits, respectively, and sex tourism doesn't show up on the list of google
typehead choices even if you push it to "thailand se".

~~~
ptaipale
You are right of course - people have different perceptions; for me, diving is
definitely the thing that comes to my mind from Thailand, even if I have never
done any scuba diving myself. The next things are beaches, food and the
tsunami.

But regarding what Google typeahead suggests to you, it depends on your
location and perhaps your own search history. For me the options with
"Thailand se" are september, seasons, sevärdheter ("sights" in Swedish). So if
someone sees proposals with "Thailand sex", it could be because he or she has
been doing previous searches for Thai sex tourism.

------
j_lev
I'm struggling to take seriously any article from the NYT that is supposed to
invoke outrage since I got duped by that recent nail salon article.

~~~
rattray
What was the tldr of the nail salon dupe?

~~~
kneisley
Former NYT columnist Richard Bernstein laid down several research failures in
Nir's original piece. I haven't read enough to agree with the assertion that
it is duplicitous, but the refutation is compelling.
[http://www.nybooks.com/blogs/nyrblog/2015/jul/25/nail-
salons...](http://www.nybooks.com/blogs/nyrblog/2015/jul/25/nail-salons-new-
york-times-got-wrong/)

------
rectangletangle
A lot of this is similar to the fishing industry in US, long exhausting
shifts, dangerous slippery conditions, and cramped noisy sleeping quarters.
The issue with minor cuts leading to infection is also persistent; "gurry"
(misc fish parts) and salt water get under your gloves. There're even "mother
ships," though they're referred to as tenders.

Of course this is all voluntary, and the pay is _much_ better. There're also
environmental regulations, prohibiting unsustainable fishing practices.

------
S4M
Each time I read a sad story like that in the comfort of my flat, I wonder:
what can I do to help them? Then, I can't think of anything, and my mind tries
to forget this cruelty being inflicted to others, and I move on with my
life...

~~~
asciimo
You may not be able to directly help those currently enslaved by this system.
But you can stop consuming the products that it produces, and encourage your
friends and family to stop consuming these products.

------
marincounty
"Bar codes on pet food in some European countries enable far-flung consumers
to track Thai-exported seafood to its onshore processing facilities, where it
was canned or otherwise packaged."

I'd be one of those far-flung consumers if I was given the choice? I will read
tuna cans more carefully.

~~~
brc
Two things that would improve the plight of these people:

1) fish origin labelling - which has massive benefits of other types.
Currently there just isn't enough 'look through' to enable consumers to
determine the source of seafood products.

2) a more developed economy in Cambodia and other places, so that nobody turns
to people smugglers in desperation.

------
logfromblammo
I don't know how anyone can read an article like this and still think
seasteading can create a libertarian utopia.

~~~
dropit_sphere
Oh, why not. I have time.

I don't think the seasteaders contend that there is something magic about
being alone on the ocean that makes a good society. So in that sense,
seasteading would not "create" anything.

Rather, their idea is that the same freedom and informality that allows
definitely-horrible things like this, would also allow for _controversially_
horrible things, like libertarian policies.

Not the sword but the wielder, etc.

~~~
logfromblammo
The people dreaming up the seasteading plans imagine self-sustaining,
seaworthy rafts populated by like-minded individuals. They are, typically, the
sort of person who has a rather positive opinion of human nature, and imagine
that most other people are at least a tiny bit rational and ethical.

They are not just ignoring, but never even considering, those people who
_already_ live "free" on the high seas: pirates, human traffickers, poachers
of protected fisheries, smugglers, toxic waste dumpers, and the generally
unsavory characters who are largely invisible to the rest of the world.

Any seastead will eventually encounter those people, who are already out
there, on their reefers and other largely obsoleted vessels. They do not
subscribe to the non-aggression principle (NAP), and are often very skilled at
concealing their unethical behavior from observers. I have never seen this
issue seriously addressed by any NAP-libertarian.

What do you do when a ship pulls up to your seastead's floating dock, and you
see an unhappy man bolted to the deck with a neck chain? If the raft next door
runs a brothel, how do you really know that none of the employees have been
coerced into working there? If a factory-mothership offers to sell you its by-
catch, should you worry about where it came from? Could a group of armed
"guests" take control of your floating home? What do you do when your fish
farm gets poached? Will you always know where the line between non-
interference and complicity lies? If you make _any_ wrong decisions, you may
die, or attract the future ire of someone better armed than you.

The key concept is that people who have better reasons for evading the laws of
nation-states--typically prison or execution-- _are already out there_.
Furthermore, you can't positively identify them or their motives, nor can you
avoid dealing with them in the long run. And if you establish a system that
deals with them (and naturally, the traditional seasteader's bogeyman of a
state-owned navy vessel) acceptably, how do you prevent that from turning into
a government? And if those guys are already out there thumbing their noses at
the law, why bother with the complicated engineering projects? Just buy an old
reefer and take it out beyond the territorial limit, and you're done.

It all makes me think that seasteading is a way to scam people afraid of
losing some of their money into actually losing most of their money. If the
promoters weren't out to sell speculative floating concrete boxes to credulous
suckers, they could be actually operating one of those motherships, supplying
and trading with people who live in international waters, on their existing
convenience-flagged vessels. Why aren't they?

~~~
dropit_sphere
>The key concept is that people who have better reasons for evading the laws
of nation-states--typically prison or execution-- _are already out there_.
Furthermore, you can't positively identify them or their motives, nor can you
avoid dealing with them in the long run. And if you establish a system that
deals with them (and naturally, the traditional seasteader's bogeyman of a
state-owned navy vessel) acceptably, how do you prevent that from turning into
a government?

Why _not_ let it turn into a government? I'm not a libertarian, but I don't
think libertarians are quite anarchists.

With regards to security, that just doesn't seem too hard of a problem, at
least against non-state actors. Hopefully the place should _easily_ throw off
enough surplus to afford a security force that could take on pirates.

Now, I may be describing a more centralized authoritarian setup than a
libertarian might be comfortable with. But Dubai and Singapore are real places
not under threat by pirates, while I can't think of a libertarian society that
actually _exists_ anywhere.

------
mcantelon
It's sad how little attention contemporary slavery gets versus historical
examples of slavery. It would be great if Hollywood made a movie about this
(or slavery in the middle east committed by Western allies).

~~~
jrochkind1
Or slavery in the United States. Yep.

[http://www.buzzfeed.com/jessicagarrison/the-new-american-
sla...](http://www.buzzfeed.com/jessicagarrison/the-new-american-slavery-
invited-to-the-us-foreign-workers-f)

~~~
bilbo0s
Yeah...

You haven't had the misfortune of having to witness REAL slavery. Real slavery
is going on a walk outside the embassy and seeing a 6 year old domestic girl
given a LEGAL black eye by the fist of her mistress. And there is nothing you
can do about it.

That's when I learned... if you can call the police or get the authorities to
intervene... then it's not slavery.

Slavery has got to be the worst thing I've ever seen in my life. Worse than
combat even. Because there is nothing you can do. It's just in your face. This
was way back in the early 90's... and I still remember the girl look up at me
afterwards... a few seconds went by... and a trickle of blood started to come
from her nose.

Yeah...

I just went back to the embassy. Certain parts of Africa back then were just
not tourist spots.

~~~
zo1
We don't doubt what you saw, or that it was _bad /immoral_.

But let's be clear, you've essentially used this fallacy (not to mention the
appeal to emotion) to support/base your point:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman)

I.e. "True slavery means that police/authorities won't intervene". It shows
that you don't have a well-defined definition of slavery, or are using one
that is too-constrained to the generally-accepted definition of slave/slavery.
Here are a few:

 _[...]a person who is the legal property of another and is forced to obey
them._

 _[...]a person who works very hard without proper remuneration or
appreciation._

 _[...]a person who is excessively dependent upon or controlled by something._

~~~
ekanes
Going through your definitions...

1\. Yes, this person is a slave.

2\. No, this person is _underpaid_.

3\. No, this person is _dependent_.

~~~
comrh
According to you. The definition of the word slavery isn't nearly as specific.

------
gcb0

       > "Mars moved to solution A"
    
       > "Nestle says they are doing all they can (mentions nothing)".
    

why people still consume nestle? is it because their (free to collect) water
is cheaper?

------
anti-shill
we had better allow them to come over here to the USA.

Right?

