

The Nordic region is becoming a hothouse of entrepreneurship - enra
http://www.economist.com/news/special-report/21570834-nordic-region-becoming-hothouse-entrepreneurship-if-doubt-innovate?

======
Matti
Unless things have changed recently, Berlin still has fairly low rents and low
living costs going for it -- giving people a fair amount of marginal space:
<http://www.paulgraham.com/marginal.html>

Alexander Young (of Soundcloud) speaking about Berlin: "The atmosphere and
culture in Berlin is very unique. Since the costs for living are still low,
people can afford to only work a few hours per week, and do the stuff they
want the rest of the time." [http://blog.twingly.com/2010/05/18/from-
stockholm-to-berlin-...](http://blog.twingly.com/2010/05/18/from-stockholm-to-
berlin-interview-with-soundcloud-ceo-alexander-ljung/)

That can't be said about Stockholm nor Helsinki.

~~~
hoggle
tl;dr BERLIN IS AWESOME!

I just came back from Berlin (awesome couchdb conf @ co.up co-working space)
and must say that the energy in a place like Kreuzberg is pretty intense.

The area around Rosenthaler Platz and Rosa-Luxemburg-Platz in Mitte also
seemed kind of interesting but more akin to what I'm used to here in Vienna
(neat and tidy).

I only had five days to experience the city but I do have thought about moving
there already!

But yeah living in Vienna is so damn comfortable that it really is a difficult
decision to go anywhere else.

We have a lot of co-working spaces too and I often meet local devs at coffee
shops by coincidence (another strength of a rather small place). So everything
being so nice is both a good and a bad thing I guess.

Vienna #1 at quality of life:
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercer_Quality_of_Living_Survey>

Bottom line for me though - the youthful vibes in Berlin are a very special
thing and probably worth more than top comfort and beauty.

~~~
_delirium
How necessary would speaking fluent German be to live/work in Berlin or
Vienna? I've heard that most young people and tech people speak English, but
that it can be a problem, if you don't know good German, to interact with the
civil service, banking, business registration, and those kinds of things. But
I have no personal experience there.

One thing that makes it easy to stay in Scandinavia is that I've been rather
spoiled by how easy it is to do everything in Denmark in English. Official
government forms are available in your choice of Danish or English versions,
all my banking is in English, doctors all speak it, and every government
office I've been to will switch once they realize you're a foreigner. Heck,
even many public lectures at universities and museums are in English. The
language is good to know for social reasons, but there aren't really any
formal/official situations where you _have_ to interact in Danish.

~~~
hoggle
There were certain areas in Berlin where speaking English seemed almost
mandatory, especially in Bars and Cafes but that said I don't know how the
situation is with gov institutions etc.

I would guess though that it can't be such a big deal as there seemingly are a
lot of non German speakers everywhere (in the mentioned areas it felt like
German native speakers actually were a minority) and consequently at least
some of the local businesses were owned by non Germans too.

Vienna is definitely less pronounced international but telling from my
experiences at coffee shops as well as the "Wien" subreddit at least there
must be a thriving expat community.

Sorry for not having more info about the official lang requirements in
Germany/Berlin but do check out the cities' corresponding subreddits:

<http://www.reddit.com/r/berlin> <http://www.reddit.com/r/wien>

~~~
hilko
Most expats I know here have done well, sometimes 5+ years, without ever
properly learning German. So language is not an issue.

That said, you do need help when dealing with the bureaucracy. It can be
complicated, and they often do _not_ speak English. But it's trivial to get
this help from colleagues or expats.

90% of those I work with are German, and yet I can get by speaking only
English as 1) they will switch to English, like I suspect most German
developers can and would, and 2) our CTO and a few others in the office are
not German either.

------
rdouble
Two of my favorite products are from Sweden, my OP-1 synth and Reason.

I've often wondered if a social safety net, such as the one in Sweden, takes a
risk burden off of entrepreneurs and therefore allows for more experimentation
with products like these. They require more lead time to develop (years vs.
months) and target music making, which isn't an obviously lucrative market.
However, the companies behind both products seem to be doing quite well.

~~~
antris
Linux would have never happened if Linus Torvalds didn't have a chance to
"slack off" in Helsinki University with taxpayer money. The whole thing
started as a hobby project.

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Linux#The_creation_o...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Linux#The_creation_of_Linux)

Unfortunately, the times are changing in Finland, too, as politicians are
pushing for legislation to force students to finish their studies within
tighter time frames.

~~~
hjn341
Do you happen to have a link to some writing on those proposed changes in
legislation? Thanks!

~~~
antris
There was a legislation about a maximum period of 7 years for doing both the
bachelor's and the master's degree. This would mean a student could lose his
permission to be enrolled in the university as a student and graduate:

[http://yle.fi/uutiset/seitseman_vuoden_takaraja_hiillostaa_n...](http://yle.fi/uutiset/seitseman_vuoden_takaraja_hiillostaa_nyt_ikuista_opiskelijaa/5742927)

[http://www.mtv3.fi/uutiset/kotimaa.shtml/opintoajan-
rajaus-o...](http://www.mtv3.fi/uutiset/kotimaa.shtml/opintoajan-rajaus-on-
vauhdittanut-opintoja/2012/08/1592019)

I couldn't find an English source for this, sorry. Perhaps Google Translate
will help.

There is a caveat in the law, which is that universities can give extensions
to the studies as they wish, and most students who request it do get it. But
it's still a strong message from the government and there are ~400 students at
the moment that have their studies interrupted because of this law.

Also Anita Lehikoinen from the Ministry of Education says that "funding to
universities are partly decided by the amount of students who achieve 45 study
points (points awarded for completing parts of the curriculum) in a given
year" ( <http://ylioppilaslehti.fi/2010/02/pitka-ura/> ) So there is a clear
incentive for universities to push students into graduating quickly.

edit: Found an English source, this is an instructional material of Aalto
University for exchange students, mentioning the study right:
[https://into.aalto.fi/display/enmasterarts/Study+right+and+t...](https://into.aalto.fi/display/enmasterarts/Study+right+and+the+duration+of+the+degree)

~~~
pasiaj
NPT

------
randall
The suit is back!

<http://www.paulgraham.com/submarine.html>

------
akurilin
Any thoughts from people on the ground in those areas?

~~~
meriksson
Running a software company in Stockholm, Sweden is a blast. It is a great
place to live, plenty of good people to recruit, a decent domestic market,
e.g. many big companies willing to try out services from startups. There is a
vast number of small tech companies here, most of them completely unknown.
Every week I learn about some cool new company doing their thing just around
the block from us, without ever having heard of the people involved.

There are some major caveats: Income taxes are extremely high and tax rules
makes it almost impossible to share ownership in a rational way, e.g. it is
very hard to setup stock option programs etc. Also, the domestic venture
capital market is extremely underdeveloped - a great opportunity for foreign
investors!

I am a firm opponent of all government programs to stimulate entrepreneurship.
My view is that the government should simply get out of the way. And in fact,
except for the taxes, this is by and large what the Swedish government is
doing. For example, there is very little bureaucracy around running a
business, e.g. starting an incorporated company is now done easily over the
internet, often the whole process can be completed in a matter of days.

~~~
robin_reala
Out of interest, do you think it’d be easy to get into the startup scene with
minimal Swedish? My wife is Swedish and we have in the past considered a move
to Stockholm but my Swedish is absolutely not fluent (although were we to do
it I’d enrol in an evening course as soon as we moved).

~~~
Matti
Getting by in Stockholm won't be a problem: you can safely assume that people
within the start-up scene are fluent in English. You'll be met with a slightly
different kind of problem: as communicating in English is so effortless,
you'll have few opportunities to really practice your Swedish.

~~~
robin_reala
Hah, yeah, I know the Swede’s proclivity for English :) Just wasn’t sure that
it’d be acceptable to speak it in a business context. That’s interesting for
sure.

------
drpgq
House cleaning as a tax deductible expense and employment perk? That I could
get behind.

------
henrik_w
Another recent story, on the startup scene in Stockholm: Why tiny Stockholm
has the most stunning startup ecosystem since Tel Aviv
([http://pandodaily.com/2012/11/20/why-tiny-stockholm-has-
the-...](http://pandodaily.com/2012/11/20/why-tiny-stockholm-has-the-most-
stunning-startup-ecosystem-since-tel-aviv/?pages=all)).

It was discussed here: <http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4813573>

------
vowelless
How is the immigration process in the region? I might not be able to get
permanent residency soon enough in the US, and so it might be worth checking
out other countries (I am also eyeing Canada). This is speaking as a graduate
from one of the top 3 CS schools in the US, former "Big Company" employee and
currently doing a startup.

~~~
mindjiver
It depends if you are a citizen of EU, a Nordic country or Switzerland or not.
I assume that you are not so in that case you would need a job offer first,
apply for a work permit, then come and work. The process is described here:

<http://www.sweden.se/eng/Home/Work/>

If you are self-employed or moving with your company it might be trickier.
Here at $MEGA_CORP we have hired tons of non-EU citizen, mostly Russians, and
it seems to work pretty well.

------
apaprocki
I helped host a delegation of Finnish startups that came to Bloomberg in NYC.
The Finnish Consul throws networking events in his apt as well. Everyone
appears very driven and there are some great startups coming from the country.
A lot of ex-Nokia guys need something new to do... :)

