

Ask HN: Dropping out of college and moving to SF - cj

I'm trying to figure out whether this is a good idea to follow through with.<p>I'm a freshmen in college and I'm not really enjoying it. I did a lot of drinking and partying first semester, but it's gotten really old. It's just a repetitive cycle that isn't truly satisfying. Drunken weekends feel like wasted weekends (although I suppose this might not be the case if I had time to do anything meaningful during the week).<p>Most of my friends have no ambition or motivation to do anything substantial before they graduate. As someone who gets extremely passionate and excited about new ideas, projects and tech in general, being around people who can't relate is draining. I've found a few techie friends, but none serious enough to work on projects with.<p>The only times that I've felt truly aligned with the people around me were at the TC 50 and TC Disrupt conferences in SF and NYC. They were beyond amazing. Walking into those conferences felt like walking into my own front door. I fell in love with SF the week I was there for TC50. Even before, it's always been my dream to live in the bay area just based on the concentration of tech.<p>To the point: I'm considering taking a year off from school and moving to the bay area. I'm looking for some insight from people with experience, as none of my family or close friends know what to think.<p>Moving to San Francisco and working for an awesome startup would be a mind-blowing experience. I'm up for long hours of hard work. My only concern is finding a startup to work for and being able to cover the cost of living. Product and business development related work is where I think I can contribute the most. Is it realistic to think that anyone would hire a 19 year old, unproven college drop out?<p>Deadlines are approaching and nonrefundable deposits are due, so I'm not sure whether to go gung-ho just yet, or to play it safe and pay the deposits. At this point, it's basically riding on whether I can cover living expenses. What do you guys think? I would <i>really</i> appreciate your suggestions or advice. Thank you HN.
======
eengstrom
I didn't think joining HN, I'd be spending so much time answering questions
from young people, but hey, it is somewhat satisfying in lieu of more
technical and human science discussion.

I'm 38 and I took a GED to leave high school for a programming job. I didn't
realize until my 30's how much fun college probably would be. I'm not going to
discuss the merit or benefit of a degree, because it is a highly personal
evaluation. I simply wish I had the experience my friends had with some of the
stories and adventures, friends and social life. I didn't take my first real
vacation until I was 33 - almost 17 years of non-stop 80-100 hour weeks.

That being said, I'm also old enough to look at a post like this and feel both
frustration and excitement for your position. Statistics about a college
degree earning more over a lifetime, don't lie, you will simply have an easier
time in life in almost every way if you complete your degree.

Here's the "tough love" part: You have provided nothing to indicate to a
reader whether you would be an asset at 19, other than passable writing
skills. Not that I wouldn't hire you based on this criteria, but why should I
when the market is heavily saturated with experienced people?

Being 19 with no work experience, college education, deep technical talent and
on top, you bore easily? Honestly, no, and you haven't made a good case in
your post. One more semi-nasty point: product and business development people
generally have relevant experience in developing products and sales, its a
skilled field, not something to do because you can't program.

I'm glad you're excited to move to San Francisco, as a 9th generation native
of the Bay Area, it is an awesome place to live (this damn rain,
notwithstanding), but it is a very expensive, very challenging place to live
without a network of loved ones, patient relatives, a sure source of income or
a solid job offer.

Since you've indicated you have no money saved, I'm assuming you'll try and
borrow funds to get here; make sure you let them know you'll probably need
more and try to avoid burning any bridges with family or friends.

Because the Bay Area is very populated, the unemployment here is very high and
I have friends who have been without an interview, even in technology for well
over a year. My cost of living is very high compared to most of the country,
public transportation is decent, but not expansive. There are far easier
places to strike-out to with a wild-hair and not be eaten alive.

I am, however, envious of your youth and future. I wouldn't TRADE mine, but
darn ain't it fun and exciting to be 19, have no prospects, no
responsibilities and have the world in front of you.

Take older to younger advice; slow down. Make a plan, save your money, network
remotely, visit with your savings and complete your degree. Build something
that will impress people, even if its a website discussing your perspective on
product and business development.

~~~
mindcrime
As a 37 year old, I'd go along with almost all of what eengstrom said, in
general. But there is a counter-point... being to cautious and patient can be
a risk in it's own right. In my own case, I look back and feel that I waited
too long to indulge my "wild hair" and move to a place with more opportunity.
Now I'm struggling to deal with a world where a 37 year old is considered
"old" to be a startup founder, and worrying about the real possibility of age
discrimination as I continue forward in the technology profession.

I'm not recommending going off half-cocked on a whim or anything, but there's
something to be said for being aggressive about pursuing things. And
unfortunately nobody can really _tell_ you how to judge when a decision is
being too aggressive or just silly... judgment is one of those things you
really only gain with experience. All I can really tell you is to study hard,
consider all the alternatives, solicit as much information as you can from
various sources, and then make the best decision you can. In the end, whether
you succeed or not isn't going to come down to any one decision in isolation
anyway (well, 99% of the time anyway. A decision to start imbibing crack
cocaine is pretty much a one way ticket to failure, but I hope you get my
drift.)

 _save your money_

Definitely this. Building a safety-net / nest-egg will both allow you the
confidence to make some risky decisions at times, and may just save your ass
one day if one of those decisions fails to pay off.

~~~
eengstrom
Hah! Me? Too cautious? I would never have listened to my own advice, but then
I had a job in hand and money saved, which seems an entirely different
scenario than the OP.

How, also are you too old? Go to your pitch meetings like I plan to: I will be
surrounded by octogenarians in overalls and Victorian wimples! Social
camouflage!

~~~
mindcrime
_Hah! Me? Too cautious? I would never have listened to my own advice, but then
I had a job in hand and money saved, which seems an entirely different
scenario than the OP._

:-)

 _How, also are you too old? Go to your pitch meetings like I plan to: I will
be surrounded by octogenarians in overalls and Victorian wimples! Social
camouflage!_

Oh don't get me wrong... _I_ don't think (or at least acknowledge) being too
old, but I am cognizant that there is a certain sort of bias towards
youngsters in this field. I'm still thrashing away like mad on my project, and
I'll be pitching it as aggressively as I possibly can (or harder) when the
time comes. If anything, in my case, age is just making me hungrier exactly
_because_ I have that "I haven't done anything yet" feeling.

------
smoody
First thought: Perhaps try to transfer to another school? There are great
schools out there where you can find motivated, smart students and perhaps
even find some great co-founders.

Second thought: Stay where you are one more year/semester and use all of the
time normally spent partying to create a great open-source project that will
act as a resume. There has to be some way for companies to understand the
level of complexity you can handle, whether your code is clean and loosely
coupled or if it is rookie code, etc.

Third thought: Stay in school and find a co-founder and an idea and apply to
three-or-four of the top incubator programs before quitting school to see if
you can dovetail into something where you can be surrounded by great people.

I am, of course, assuming that one year off will turn into two years off,
which will turn into just plain giving-up on school. When I think about my
four years in college, I realize that I learned how to be a great
entrepreneur, how to manage massive complexity, how to be a great leader, etc.
outside of my comp sci classes (which were absurdly easy for me since I had
momentum going in -- I started with senior-level classes my first year in).
That's something that many people doling out "college is a waste of time"
advice fail to realize. Working in a startup isn't about slinging code, it's
about collaboration, interaction, being put on the spot, learning to respect
others in spite of their faults, not being afraid to take a stand in something
you believe in, etc. Those are things one can master in college if one
prioritizes those outcomes.

I once asked my advisor (a big name in computer vision at the time -- I was an
AI guy) why the university didn't teach programming on a particular computer
in a particular programming language and his response was "you're not here to
learn, you're here to learn how to learn," and in my case, that was a lesson I
needed.

------
yaxdotcom
Think about the guys in any prison movie: Take time to plan your escape.

1) Instead of digging a hole with stolen spoons in the prison yard, learn to
program. "Rails for Zombies" (the tutorial) or Michael Hartl's book can
substitute for stolen spoons. Build a personal pet project or find a way to
contribute to an open source project. It'll be more fun than digging a hole in
the prison yard. And you'll develop a marketable skill that'll get you a job
so you don't end up back in prison.

2) While you are developing programming skills, get yourself transferred to a
different prison where you can make an easier escape. You can get into any
community college in the Bay Area (Laney College in Oakland, for example). Or
try SF State or CSU-Hayward. Going to college in the Bay Area will give you a
base and you can make your escape to a startup from there.

3) Just like the guys who volunteer in the prison library to get in position
for their great escape, once you're in the Bay Area and enrolled in a local
college, volunteer for all the startup events and conferences (seems like
you've already done that with the TechCrunch events). It'll be a lot easier to
ask people about jobs or hookup with a cofounder if you can say you're already
living here and have got some useful skills.

You're smart to recognize that you need to escape your current environment to
move ahead in your life. Just make the change in a smart way. Or you'll be
stuck in solitary confinement for a long time.

------
rdl
I'd consider going to a better school, if you can -- it's not that hard to
transfer after 1-2 years to a place like Stanford. It might also be a function
of freshman classes vs. upper division classes; you might consider trying to
take upper division or even grad classes in areas you really care about, just
to be around less worthless people. The only classes I enjoyed were grad
classes in crypto, which I took by just blowing off many prerequisites with
handwaving, and learned on the fly.

Of course, I dropped out of a top school to work on startups, and while I sort
of regret not getting a degree, I also regret not dropping out earlier to work
on startups earlier.

I'd be a lot more encouraging of "drop out for a year to work on startups" if
you were a developer, vs. bizdev/product person. Spending a year more at
college becoming a competent developer is probably the best way to use your
spare time, then reconsider dropping out for a while to join a startup.

~~~
pgbovine
_it's not that hard to transfer after 1-2 years to a place like Stanford_

citation please? from anecdotal evidence, selective private schools take very
few transfer students. however, good public schools like UC's take a lot of
transfer students from the California community college system

------
zaidf
I learned taking time off does not _have_ to equal dropping out. You can
return and finish your degree, if you choose.

I gained _a lot_ of perspective when I took off and moved to SF to run my
start-up. When I returned to school couple years later, I enjoyed it a lot
more. I credit it to better class selection(now that I knew what I was really
interested in) and an improved attitude towards school(I learned that I didn't
know it all as I often thought before I took off).

~~~
r00fus
Just wanted to say some of the best folks in my college CS group were military
folks who were a bit older (2-4 years) who knew the value of the education.

That said, it is a huge stigma to not finish your degree... you better have a
job or strong vision. For every Steve Jobs there are probably hundreds who
would have done better by completing their studies.

------
staunch
Don't do it. Transfer to a different school or try to make your experience at
your existing one better. It's a big risk moving to a new city without money
and trying to make it work. Don't ruin your safe and stable situation.

~~~
zaidf
I don't think it is a big risk. I don't think you have to ruin your safety.
And stability in your late teens and early 20s is overrated imo.

Knowing what the average HN user is capable of, I don't think moving to SF is
a _huge_ risk in terms of survival.

~~~
idefix
That makes no sense. Being an HN member does not grant you magical survival
abilities. Also, despite being an awesome place to be, SF is expensive to live
in.

~~~
zaidf
_Being an HN member does not grant you magical survival abilities._

There is nothing magical about a large percentage of HN's members possessing a
valuable skill(ie. programming, hustling).

 _Also, despite being an awesome place to be, SF is expensive to live in._

Agree. But there are enough hacks around it. Dining out too expensive? Cook at
home. Apartment too expensive? Commute to SF on BART or get an apartment in
the Tenderloin. etc.

------
tynan
Drop out of school.

School is for some people, not everyone. It doesn't sound like it's for you. A
degree is a good way to get a crappy job (and these days, it's no guarantee of
that). It's not the best way to learn, especially for tech stuff.

Ask yourself what you're hoping to get out of school. You know what you'll get
by moving to San Francisco and HUSTLING. If school isn't going to give you
what you want, then ignore what everyone else says and quit. A degree isn't
the safety net it used to be... being self sufficient and skilled IS.

~~~
jmtulloss
What in this post makes you think that the OP is self sufficient and skilled?

------
colinsidoti
"Product and business development related work is where I think I can
contribute the most. Is it realistic to think that anyone would hire a 19 year
old, unproven college drop out?"

Realistic, yes. But is it realistic to think you'll get paid a salary worth
mentioning? Not so much.

It sounds like you want to get in on something early, and most things early
just don't have much money in them. My advice: find a start up you love and go
for it. If you're really gung ho about a specific startup and are willing to
share the founders' vision, I have a hard time believing they would reject
you're help. Expecting a decent salary though, is probably too much.

I was in the same situation as you 2 months ago. I couldn't find a startup I
loved so I started my own. Now, I'm developing a product out of my old bedroom
in my parents house (free housing ftw). When the product's done, I'll move out
west.

The one thing I would stress is to always have a backup plan. Things will not
go according to plan as much as you'd like, so be ready. I'm living with my
parents now, but if they kick me out I know exactly where else I can get
free/cheap housing while I develop. If I run out of money and realize my
startup won't make it, I can most likely go back to school. If I can't get
back in school, I know I would have an absolute blast being a bartender on a
cruise ship. After I save up some money I'll start over.

------
lyime
Don't drop out. College is awesome, I don't regret a single day in college. I
did a ton of internships to keep myself busy, partied a ton, started a company
(Mugasha) and made a ton of friends. College is not all about academics, you
will meet amazing people, having a lot of fun and look at the tech/startup
world from a different angle.

As others have mentioned, transfer to a university in the bay area. Best of
both worlds, Berkeley, Stanford, SJSC, Santa Clara, SF State etc.. tons of
choices.

------
mkr-hn
Jumping from college dropout to one of the most expensive and competitive job
markets in the country seems a little bit too much. It's a big country with
hundreds of big and lively cities full of opportunity that don't cost a
fortune to live in or near.

Even the little commuter town I live in (Winder, GA) has a couple of web-heavy
businesses started in the last decade. One's a design firm, and the other
makes clothes.

------
rdouble
Maybe you just need to stop drinking.

~~~
cj
Yeah, I haven't had alcohol since last semester

~~~
rdouble
Well, then. Why not? Even if you don't find a job, SF is a great place to be
unemployed.

Plus, if you decide you want to go back to school, you establish CA state
residency, go to a CC for $20 a credit, then transfer into to a UC.

------
beatpanda
In the same situation except I went the community college route and just
recently transferred to a CSU, as it's all my parents can afford. My
situation's a bit different because I'm only a Caltrain ride away from SF, but
I understand how you feel.

If you stay in college, figure out a way to bend every assignment into
something that you can show off as part of your resume/portfolio.

The "social experience" of college is way overrated IMO. All the cool, smart,
motivated people I've ever met in my life either already graduated or dropped
out. You certainly don't need to be in college to make friends in your peer
group, so don't stay based on that.

On the other hand, general ed classes have a way of exposing you to ways of
thinking you might not otherwise encounter if pursue only what you think
you're passionate about, and in my opinion, the maturing of my thought
processes has made college worthwhile.

YMMV. Either way it'll be an adventure. Enjoy it!

------
keiferski
I am in a similar situation (20 years old, semi-dropping out to start a
company.) Here's my advice/what I'm doing:

1) Don't drop out entirely. Being a part time student allows you to still
access most of the university resources. Many of these can be _very_ valuable.

2) Don't move to SF. It seems tempting, but if you have no plan, no skills,
and no money, it's a recipe for disaster. SF is also extremely expensive;
unless you're going to NYU, it's probably a lot cheaper to live in your
college town.

3) Work on your own projects to get some experience/a portfolio. No one will
hire a random kid with no skills.

My advice is to work on a project yourself until it gets the attention of the
online community. _Then_ you can drop out 100% and move to SF, as you'll have
proven that you can provide value.

------
abrackin
I won't say if you should or shouldn't do it, I think there are risks to doing
it but if you can find a position it could pay off and give you some
experience. If you decide to transfer a bonus would be somewhere with a tech
scene, i'm not sure where you are from so am not sure if there is a startup
scene where you are but if you decide to start a company while in college
knowing there are other startups/tech resources within a travelling distance
will give you some of the benefits you'd find in SF. On a smaller scale
depending where you go. I think you should just think it over and make a
decision.

------
dshankar
Three points:

1.) Don't use the advice here to make a decision. It's all based on personal
situations that probably differ from yours. Read it with a grain of salt.

2.) Always have a backup plan or two. So if you leave school, make sure you
have ways of getting money/job/back to school/etc.

3.) My advice (see #1) I'm 19, left college after a year of CS, founded a
startup etc. But I worked for a startup before that, so I had a vague
understanding of what I was getting into. I also have a few safety nets &
backup options.

------
paradox95
Do you know anyone out here? Do you have any money saved? If the answer to
either of those is no, what would you once you got here? What is your resume
like? Any experience? Open source? Anything? If the answer to the previous
question is "very little" or "none" it is going to take a while to get a job.
you may even need to just start doing some projects of your own/open source to
get some experience. You might have to take some manual labor job to survive
at first. Something you're willing to do?

~~~
cj
I have a distant friend who I might be able to stay with for a period of time.
No money saved. All extra went toward tuition to minimize loans. All my
experience has been from working on small projects here and there. For someone
to hire me, I acknowledge that they would have to be taking a risk.

------
zachanker
You don't mention it in your question, but what is your experience? You say
you want to work at an awesome startup, but do you have projects (such as
websites) or anything you can reference to prove you know what you're doing?

San Francisco is a great place, but you're already going to be fighting
against quite a lot of people with more experience. Unless you some impressive
projects to show, finding a startup who is going to take a risk on a 19 year
is not a good bet to make.

------
moollaza
cj, as a fellow 19 year old University student I kind of know how you feel,
especially with respect to your friends lacking ambition. If I could graduate
now and get into real work I think I would really enjoy it. Some of the
classes I have to take, or the work I have to do seems really boring and
irrelevant. For example we were required to take a course on Probability which
was taught by a terrible prof and through the whole semester all I could think
about was working on something real and exciting.

However, I'm studying Computer Science (my program, Business Informatics, is
actually half CS and half business) and I'm very glad I chose this program
because in one of my first classes I met another student who is just as
passionate and driven as I am. We've become great friends and recently started
working on some software we hope to work on over the summer and launch.

So I was going to ask if you've considered switching from Neuroscience to CS?
Or perhaps consider dropping in on some CS classes? You probably stand a
better chance of finding like-minded students there. Who knows, there could be
someone just like you eager to work on software and get into startups.

Just my two cents...

------
smallegan
This idea has fail written all over it. Unless you can land a gig with a
startup before you move finish your degree or at least stick it out another
year until you have a great idea to pursue or find a startup that really wants
to bring you onboard. Also, you didn't really mention what your skillset is?
Are you a rockstar developer or designer with a proven body of freelance work?
This may be a different story then.

------
jp
Easier to get laid in college than in SF. And if you do get a startup job,
they might cut you first to pay for some new espresso machine or something
like that. Employment security is probably non-existent.

I am from another country, so this might be wrong, but SF feels like a
playgroud for middleclass valley-dad-pays-for-shit children. Plus lots of
homeless people and asian girls in cowboy hats.

------
puredemo
You can always go back to college in this area as well. Sonoma State is nice
for a CSU, and UC Berkeley is obviously excellent.

------
Klonoar
You should absolutely, 100% drop out of college.

Moving to SF? Yeah, dunno about that; if it's what you want, good on you, go
for it, but from one engineer to another it's overrated and you'll tire of it
sooner than you think.

------
karanbhangui
I would keep your grades up for now, and try taking a year off school to try
it. I did this and haven't gone back yet.

------
rbrcurtis
if you DO go, consider looking into co-ops for your living arrangement. Fairly
cheap and you get a pseudo family as part of the deal.

------
localhost3000
Do it.

