
Consider this a job offer to work at 42Floors - jaf12duke
http://42floors.com/blog/posts/consider-this-a-job-offer-to-work-at-42floors
======
dustingetz
Dear 42 Floors: why exactly do you think you need rockstar software talent?
Your execution is obviously phenomenal, but it's not like you need a team of
<del>haskell/clojure ninjas</del> grizzled enterprise vets who know how to
tackle ridiculous complexity of integrating dozens of services against ever
changing requirements.

edit: all i'm trying to say is there are top 90% devs, and 99% devs, and 99.9%
devs... not exactly sure that 42Floors needs them. if they did need them, they
wouldn't be saying things like

    
    
        > We can't compete with Google or Facebook on salary. We  
        > can't compete with being a founder on equity. So the most  
        > important thing I have left is my ability to commit to an  
        > individual employee's personal development
    

99.9ers don't need you for personal development. Sounds like they're trying to
get young potential while its cheap. Nothing wrong with that, but when we
discuss it, we should say it like it is.

by the way, I quit my 90% job to do hacker/school this summer, I intend to
come out a 99er with mad functional programming chops, looking to join a team
of 99.9ers so i can someday become one.

~~~
cpher
I agree. The product is very valuable, and with the right execution and
marketing they'll do well. But I can't figure out why companies like this--
let's be honest, 80% of YC-funded companies-- _need_ the "best and brightest."

I ask this honestly...why would the best and brightest want to work for
consumer-facing companies with minimal salary and the equivalent of a lottery
ticket for cashing out in 4-5 years? Maybe I just don't get the SV hype--I'm
from Chicago. I thought we were past the rockstar/ninja stuff. Don't you just
need people who can, ya know, "deliver" and "execute your tasks efficiently."
Maybe even scale your app to multiple EC2 servers. And maybe if they're really
motivated, contribute to your "vision."

I'll admit that my "lifestyle" business plans are basically the same-- a
fairly simple B2B CRUD app that hopefully gains traction when I release it.
But I would never even think of courting the kind of talent I would expect to
be attracted to NASA, SpaceX, <insert green energy startup here>, etc.

What am I missing?

~~~
vaksel
because it seems like half the time, companies are partially bought for the
talent...so if you can get a much better developer it helps adds to the
valuation.

but yeah quite often it seems like these companies with thousands of
developers...could be run with a 20 times smaller team

~~~
cpher
So, you're saying that people are, in effect, _building lottery tickets_ when
they create start-ups? Is no one interested in building businesses anymore?

~~~
ma2rten
This how it works with VC funded companies, you either need to sell them or go
public. The VCs need to get a return on their investment. Since there are only
1,000 companies or so going public per year, selling to another company is
your best bet. And if you do that you might as well do so for the best
possible price. I don't think this is bad per se.

------
JPKab
As a 30 year old with a wife, kid, and semi soul-sucking full time data job,
this post causes me to feel both inspired and regretful. This guy would NEVER
hire me, which I guess I should feel bummed about, but instead I'm just fired
up. I will continue to get home, do the dad/husband thing, and then from 8:15
to 11:30, work on my projects. Wake up at 5, do it all over again. I HOPE I
will one day be half as good as this Dan Shipper kid (whose posts I really
like by the way, particularly his 2016 not 2012 post)

I hope I can get job offers like this one day, so that I can turn them down.
Not saying that a company like this isn't awesome (I'm sure it is), but if
you're good enough to get hired by them, then you shouldn't be hired by
anyone. You should be hiring.

~~~
jaf12duke
Age and having a wife and kid has zero effect on our hiring decisions. Our age
range right now cover 19 to 32, with one married, and one engaged.

~~~
DanBC
32 year olds were born in the same year Madonna made her debut. The commodore
64 was introduced. The Falklands / Malvinas were invaded / reclaimed. Lawn
Chair Larry flew his ballon-chair. Ozzy Osborne bit the head off a bat. John
Belushi died. CDs started mass production.

That's your upper age?

I feel so old right now.

~~~
nostromo
You misunderstood him -- the range of their current employees is 19 to 32.

I'm certain he's not saying they won't hire a 33 year old. Doing so would open
them up to lawsuits and wouldn't be wise.

~~~
DanBC
No, I understood that his current spread is 19 to 32, and that there's nothing
to stop him from employer older people.

But saying "we employ old people; we have a 32 year old" made me laugh. And
then feel old.

~~~
notJim
> But saying "we employ old people; we have a 32 year old" made me laugh. And
> then feel old.

But again, he didn't say anything like that.

~~~
wilfra
That's exactly what he said.

------
egypturnash
Am I the only person who feels really embarrassed for everyone involved? This
is not the kind of thing that should be done in public. If you want to court
someone then _get in touch with them_ and make some real offers. If they say
"no" even after you've made a couple bigger offers then respect that, and move
on with your life.

~~~
alaithea
No, you're not the only one. It brings to mind an awkward, overly public
marriage proposal. Not something I'd want to be on the receiving end of. And
if the other party turns them down, the rejection is just that much more
awkward.

------
tatsuke95
> _"You're only a sophomore in college, but you've already started several
> companies."_

Pray tell, how are those companies doing? What are their financials? How many
people are in their employ?

Oh, right, I forgot. A "business" in the Valley involves none of the things
that it does anywhere else in the world.

~~~
sskates
I don't know why you feel the need to hate on his success because he doesn't
have any employees. It's as if whatever he built counts for nothing. Whatever
you did while you were a sophomore in college it probably wasn't anything
close to what Dan has achieved. From his blog: "a little app I built in a few
days to review websites that's grossed a few thousand dollars to date" and "I
programmed and sold apps for BlackBerry and iPhone including the first
BlackBerry anti-theft program called FindIt". So yeah, he's made money.

I know I was still finding my way in college at that point, cruising by in my
classes without much to show for it.

~~~
tatsuke95
I'm not knocking the guy's talents. I'm knocking what is considered "a few
companies".

~~~
mkramlich
I have nothing ill to think of Mr. Shipman either, he's probably both a nice
guy and a smart guy. But I do agree with you that there's a recent trend going
on over the last year or so with people (especially younger people, and
especially web programmers) who create a few different small websites and then
present themselves as having started/built/run/sold businesses. Lots of CEOs
of, well, simple Rails apps. "I'm the CEO of a WordPress blog!" There are
things we can say which can be strictly true, but which waters down and
muddles the meaning and importance of what the words originally meant. Which
makes it hard to separate signal from noise. Which is bad.

------
zmitri
Hiring very talented young people out of college is an easy way for companies
to get lots of value for cheap.

If you haven't read pg's "Hiring is Obsolete", I suggest you do because it
more or less explains why someone like Dan shouldn't take this offer:
<http://paulgraham.com/hiring.html>

For someone in college this type of stunt could be quite intimidating, and
mentorship is appealing, but (in general) people will be more willing to help
you out when you are doing your own thing than if you are working for someone
else.

Also note that it does not mention that he can continue to work on his own
company, which (to me) is what appears to make him happy.

Why put your life on hold for someone else when you've already got so much
going for you and an entrepreneurial attitude in the first place?

------
bloat
It's nice of you to put your recruitment email at the bottom of the post, but
the only message I'm getting from this post is that you needn't bother
applying until you're already a startup founder, or have written several
books, or have a million downloaded app, or whatever the qualification is
these days.

Is that really the message you want to send? "Hey, Almost Everybody! We're not
interested in you!"

All the programmers who go to work everyday, do a damn good job, but don't
follow it up with a daily blog post, or a screencast, or a brand new Haskell
library. Are we not worth considering?

~~~
will_work4tears
Seems to me mediocre or even merely competent is the new terrible.

~~~
bloat
Yes, and I'm not evening talking about mediocrity. I'm talking about excellent
developers - people like me who've spent ten to twenty years developing high
performance, high reliability apps that run in very demanding environments.

These people would bring masses of skill and experience. Despite the OP's
comment above this sort of hiring prioritises younger people who have time to
do all the extra-curriculars, not the older developers with families and all
sorts of other commitments.

------
nanijoe
Crap..I did not know Dan Shipper was a real person for a minute. I thought
Shipper" was a reference to a fictitious person who regularly "ships"
products.

~~~
markbao
Funnily enough, that's what Dan does.

~~~
jbenz
The term for this is 'aptronym'. Famous examples include former Secretary of
Education Margaret Spellings and former MLB pitcher Jack Armstrong. Added in
the just past few years: Usain Bolt and Bernie Madoff.

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aptronym>

~~~
mattmanser
Seriously? Let's not over-sell the guy here, he does enough of that himself.
His last post was the 'hello, I know nothing at all about the real world'
post.

Also, look who didn't actually write wheremyfriends.be but is taking the
credit for it? <http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2245016>

Yes, Mr. Dan 'I didn't actually ship it' Shipper.

~~~
ajaymehta
Hey, no need for the vitriol.

Dan, Wesley and I all did wheremyfriends.be -- Wesley was the submitter of the
post you linked to, and mentioned both of us in the product description. We
worked together on a bunch of apps and over the summer, and Dan returned to
school and continued to work on Airtime while Wesley and I just graduated from
the latest YC class.

As far as I know, Dan has never misrepresented his work and has extremely high
integrity and character.

~~~
quintendf
I'll add to what Ajay said here-

Anyone who has actually dealt with Dan in person knows that he is a humble,
quiet guy who would never seek to misrepresent his work in any way.

I first met Dan shortly after the launch of wheremyfriends.be, and he was
effusive in his praise of the work both Wesley and Ajay had done as they
collaborated on the project.

------
tlogan
Let me translate this:

 _We can't compete with Google or Facebook on salary._ -> We cannot raise
money enough of capital from smart people with money but we think you are
stupid to join us (otherwise you will be one of "smart people with money").

 _We can't compete with being a founder on equity_ -> We want to be rich ...
that is pretty much the only reason why we are doing this.

 _So the most important thing I have left is my ability to commit to an
individual employee's personal development_ -> You will work min 70 hours a
week.

------
ryguytilidie
Recruiter here. The first thing I think when I read this is "my god this seems
like a great place for people who are really junior. What on earth does some
super senior engineer want as far as "personal development" goes when you
clearly think they are at the top of the field?" I really wish more Silicon
Valley companies were willing to take a risk on some fresh young talent
instead of everyone contacting the same 200 rockstars 258020823 times. Be
creative. I see no reason this person would join the company from that letter.

------
justjimmy
Refreshing read – the part about how employers need to actively court
employees, how those top of their game are less likely to send out resumes,
etc.

But I feel some points are on the way to being old and cliched (like the terms
'rockstars' and 'ninjas'.) Not just from 42Floors but other recruitment post
descriptions.

I'm referring specifically to the perks and 'freedom' the companies promise.
ie:

 _Unlimited Holiday/Vacations days!_

 _Work on anything you want! Make your own projects!_

 _Don't sign anything. Total freedom!_

I never worked at any place that offered these perks (I'm not that awesome
yet) but do people really take advantage of them? Isn't it kind of weird to
offer those perks – what exactly are is the company hiring for then? Doesn't
it come off as lack of focus if employees can do whatever they want? (Unless
they're in the R&D department, or they can do whatever they want 20% of the
time)

It's also like the perk of having access to a game room filled with XBox's. I
interviewed at a place where there was an XBox in the center of the work area
– how will anyone feel comfortable playing in there, surrounded by others
working away. It just feels like a gimmicky perk. Personally, a better perk
would be access to a nice bathroom with a shower for those late nights when I
need to refresh.

~~~
pyoung
The 'Unlimited Holiday/Vacation days' particularly bugs me. In a competitive
work environment, it is not uncommon for people to go for years without taking
a some decent time off (I did that). If it wasn't for our 'use it or lose it'
policy (we are allowed to accrue up to twice our yearly amount before we get
cutoff), I would probably never go on vacation.

I have a feeling that people who work at companies with the unlimited policy
probably take fewer vacation days than normal folks, just because no one wants
to be 'that guy' who abuses the perk.

Anyone have experience with it?

~~~
jonathanwallace
Yes, I have experience with it and due to the points you raise, we've recently
switched from "unlimited vacation" to "mandatory unlimited vacation."

Not taking vacation is grounds for dismissal, [http://not-so-secret-
sauce.highgroove.com/topics/vacation-po...](http://not-so-secret-
sauce.highgroove.com/topics/vacation-policy.html)

~~~
philwelch
At what point do you actually fire people? For instance, if they go like 18
months without vacation, do you literally fire them? Wouldn't it be easier to
just grab them and say "hey, next two weeks are on the house, go have some fun
and I don't want to see you come into the office or make any commits"?

~~~
jonathanwallace
Our feedback cycles are much much shorter than 18 months. It would never go
that long. We have semi-annual reviews. We also have weekly 1-on-1s and one of
the best portions is "what sucks?"

This portion of the 1-on-1 is a time to vent about anything and everything no
matter how small or seemingly insignificant. Don't like the flavor of free
yogurt? Bring it up. Desirous of different snacks? Mention it. Feeling
overwhelmed or burnt out? Say so.

All of the what sucks from all developers is compiled into one email and sent
out along with action items on each issue is being addressed. Being conscious
of what is less than ideal on all levels helps us improve our working
environment and our processes.

We've set two large goals at our company, developer happiness and client
happiness. Everyone's job is to fulfill those two goals and part of being
happy is not being burnt out!

By making vacation mandatory, but with no set limits, and saying you can
literally be fired we're signaling to each other the relative importance of
being aware of our limits and addressing the importance of moderation.

Someone working 60 hours a week is indicative of a severe problem in process,
planning, or execution. The same applies for someone going six months without
a day off.

Does that make sense?

------
pinchyfingers
OT:

If my name were Jason Freedman, I couldn't bring myself to name a company
"42Floors", since a guy name Jason Fried has already made "37signals" a
household name.

~~~
AVTizzle
Heh. There's a lot of excellent discussion in all these comments, but when i
read the post, I couldn't escape this point.

------
benologist
I really don't get why startups _completely_ repurpose their blog for HN.
What's 42floors supposed to be exactly, randomstartupblog.com that secretly
rents office space?

------
ajaymehta
Dan is a brilliant young dude and a great friend who totally deserves this
recognition, whether he takes this offer or -- knowing him -- continues to
work on making his own projects amazing.

~~~
pleahy
Well said! :)

~~~
byalice
:D

------
jwoah12
It's refreshing to see this sort of tactic on the end of the employer because
it shows that the process really is a two-way street. The potential employee
is as valuable to the company as the company is to the employee (in a good
match). It would be nice to see the current hiring paradigm (company holds all
the cards) evened out.

~~~
chrislomax
It's not uncommon at our works when we ask a potential employee to come and
work for us that they tell us they want to think it over to make sure it is
what they want also.

We endeavour to hire talented staff so it's only natural that they have had
other offers. From our point of view we have never held the cards really.

I suppose that is why you have to offer health policy's, pensions etc, to
sweeten the deal.

------
jhuckestein
If you're interested in the mentioned The War for Talent conference, just
click the link in the article and you'll receive a speaker discount of 25%.

Not sure if this was intentional ;)

------
gadders
This kind of reminds of those big, public marriage proposals that people make
at Sports games. If the answer's a no, it could be... awkward.

------
bvlaar
Congrats Dan! Regardless if you take it or not, you're on a great path. This
post by Jason speaks for itself. Keep it up

------
starrhorne
The site hasn't really changed in the month since launch. It's hard to believe
that's possible with 2 devs + a designer on-board. (I'm personally involved in
this space, so I've been keeping an eye on the site, and have a good idea of
what can be shipped in a month)

It looks suspiciously like they burned through a lot of money developing the
initial site and now are looking for a cheap way to continue development.
Going after someone still in college is one way to do that I guess.

Anyway, maybe I'm wrong, and they're working on some new super-secret v2 that
will blow everything out of the water.

~~~
jaf12duke
Yep. You're wrong. We'll prove it in the next week.

~~~
starrhorne
Nice affiliate site. I'd bet commission junction has some relevant offers you
could promote.

------
ScotterC
I had the pleasure of employing Dan as an intern last summer. He's absolutely
top notch and I wish there was some way I could have kept him.

------
Suncho
Dear 42 Floors: People are probably more likely to take your job offers
seriously once you figure out that "awhile" is an adverb, "a while" is a noun
and there's no context in which "for awhile" is grammatically correct.

~~~
marcamillion
There is always that douchebag that tries to completely subvert the spirit of
the effort for some trivial technicality that doesn't matter eh.

------
droithomme
Smart guys, this is the way to do recruitment.

------
wavephorm

      We can't compete with being a founder on equity.
    

Why not? If you need quality developers OFFER THEM FUCKING EQUITY!! They'll
listen, trust me. Offer them 0.07% equity and the most talented developers out
there will brush you off and joke about you while downing beers with their
friends on the weekends.

~~~
donw
Say that Dan were to sign up tomorrow. Right now, 42Floors has a five-person
team. While I'm not entire sure about the company structure, it looks like
Jason and Alex are the cofounders.

Let's assume a pretty optimal funding scenario: YC took 6%, and the next 400k
cost them 9%. Figure the employee stock pool is somewhere around 5%, leaving
80% to split between the two cofounders.

Dan may be awesome, but I don't really see a spare 10% or 20% in there for an
employee. Dan may be awesome and talented, but you don't bring in people post-
funding at that kind of equity stake, unless they've got some insane track
record (and rolodex) that justifies it, and even then, getting the board to
greenlight things would be a tough sell.

There's only so much room in the CAP table to hand out equity to employees.

What they can offer, and what _is_ a big deal, is giving Dan the freedom to
maximize his own potential, and to get paid for it.

That's not a small offer, and even with the small mountain of opportunity I
have on the table right now, I would think very deeply about working at
42Floors if they approached me like this.

It's classy, and honest. I like that.

~~~
robryan
Or just take an equity hit, raise a bigger round and pay people like Dan a
rate nicely above what they can make elsewhere. Founders probably end up
keeping more equity and the employee takes on less risk.

~~~
donw
Agreed; or, offer some other form of compensation that makes the offer 'worth
it' to Dan. This could mean reduced hours, company time to work on personal
ventures, etc.

You can have a lot of flexibility in hiring if you can offer your employees
what they want, and that's not always money.

------
robatsu
I've worked at places that "only hired the best" and such. I think this kind
of mantra coming from employers is as much self promotion as it is a statement
of policy.

As in, our stuff must be wonderful, we only hire the best.

But really, having a plan that requires that everyone be an Einstein is
somewhat limited - a more robust organization is one that can accommodate &
make maximum use of what skills an individual has. Obviously this has its
limits, but making a condition of success that everyone has to be a potential
Nobel Prize winning renaissance man is a bit limiting as well.

One alternative to this is the strategy explained by Lieutenant Keefer in the
"The Caine Mutiny": "The Navy is a master plan designed by geniuses for
execution by idiots"

If you can set something like that up, you are golden, the supply of idiots
being much more plentiful and cheap than geniuses.

~~~
SatvikBeri
This is exactly it. The initial work in designing your processes should be
difficult and require rare skills. Executing those processes should be
relatively boring and easy.

------
gcb
Wouldn't be too impressed by a job offer that can't offer a good pay or
equity... I mean, their target is already pumping out his ideas as companies
as far as i can incur from the post...

what exactly is in it for him besides ego stroking?

