
Is an Aboriginal tale of an ancient volcano the oldest story ever told? - Hooke
https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2020/02/aboriginal-tale-ancient-volcano-oldest-story-ever-told
======
Gatsky
There is a sad history in Australia of treating the indigenous population as
nothing more than a bunch of savages. This had its origins as a kind of
reality distortion to justify taking their land and in some cases,
exterminating them entirely as happened in Tasmania. There is still this
perverse incentive today, since acknowledging that there was a full blown
civilisation with a very long history present before English colonisation
means we are a morally bankrupt nation, and also invites discussion of
reparations.

~~~
geeostation
Rural Australian whites were shooting Aboriginals like Animals few decades ago
:(

back on topic, we are still discovering new things about the aboriginal
civilisation [https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-01-19/fire-reveals-
further-...](https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-01-19/fire-reveals-further-
parts-of-6600-year-old-aquatic-system/11876228)

~~~
retsibsi
> shooting Aboriginals like Animals few decades ago

Is this really true? I know there's a terrible history of massacres and
unpunished murders, but was that sort of thing really going on so recently?

~~~
Perenti
Yes. The government paid a bounty in the Northern Territory for myall (wild
aboriginal people) scalps until well into the 20th century.

~~~
retsibsi
I interpreted 'few decades ago' to mean, roughly, within 30-40 years or so.
Second half of the 20th century at the very least. (I'm not being pedantic for
the fun of it, let alone because I want to downplay the atrocities that have
been committed. I want to know if I'm ignorant of some important recent
history; if not, I guess I want to point out that our _recent_ history isn't
quite as bad as the parent comment seemed to indicate.)

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jbattle
I ask this question out of more curiosity than skepticism, but how do the
scientists in this article distinguish between stories that explain the
'appearance' of the volcano vs. the 'formation' of the volcano?

As a point of comparison, there are a lot of stories about how Paul Bunyan
created various lakes, mountains, and valleys. These are clearly invented
backstories for part of the existing landscape.

I can't find a retelling of the Budj Bim story - are there elements of the
story that are qualitatively different from stories about Paul Bunyan?

Or is it more that the local population has been in place for 40k years so
these stories _could_ be that old?

~~~
shermozle
For context there's a pseudo debate going on in Australia about whether the
indigenous people had large-scale agri- and aquaculture. A book, highly
recommended, called Dark Emu quotes primary sources from early settlers and
white explorers clearly describing an agrarian economy that was rapidly wiped
out by invading settlers and their livestock. If true, and it's a convincing
theory, the indigenous first Australians had a completely different culture to
that we've all been taught. Settled agriculture actively managing the land as
opposed to hunter gatherers. And the history goes back 50-60k years.

This idea has touched a nerve with the Murdocracy who opened a new front in
their culture wars attacking the idea without really attempting to refute it
from historical sources.

So I think reading this piece in that context is helpful.

~~~
markdown
Related: [https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/australian-
bushfir...](https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/australian-bushfires-
uncover-hidden-sections-ancient-aquaculture-system-180974028/)

------
fit2rule
Anyone paying attention to the FNP saga, have known for a long time that there
is more to the tale of their civilisation than we have been willing to admit.

The FNP had the worlds largest trading network for tens of thousands of years.
They had a form of crypto key exchange which guaranteed peace between the
tribes. They farmed and tamed the landmass of the Australian continent with
fire, turning it into a self-replenishing paradise for many millennia. They
still operate human-kinds oldest, productive ore mine - Wilgie Mia, 30,000
years old. Theirs was the first school in the world - Gabarnmung, 35,000 years
old - recently re-opened for the traditional owners after a few decades of
neglect during colonisation. As the article states, they have the longest
record of history passed down through oral tradition of any human group -
37,000 years is a long time to be telling the same stories. We (Europeans) can
hardly do it for 200 years ..

There is so much to learn from these people - alas, it requires a very bright,
scientific mind to do so, because the prejudice against them has been so
rigidly enforced in modern Australian culture that it is an uphill battle.
However, I would really encourage anyone with an interest in the longest
history of humankind, to learn a few of the FNP's songs and stories. They are
truly an amazing civilisation.

~~~
MisterOctober
My guess based on context is that "FNP" refers to the indigenous people of
Australia [maybe 'First Nations People?' \-- however that term is more
generally used in North America, to my knowledge], but that acronym isn't
present in the article. Would you clarify for our benefit please?

~~~
fit2rule
It does indeed refer to the indigenous people of Australia, and is a general
term used by many indigenous people who were displaced by colonisation in
Australia, the USA and Canada. Australian Aboriginal People use this term
freely - I believe it is politically leveraged in a contemporary context to
indicate alignment with other displaced peoples around the world. Euro-
Australians are generally not as content with the use of this phrase, since it
indicates a path to sovereignty and serves as a reminder of Australia's rough
past.

However, from the FNP-side, it is considered better than the phrases
"Aborigine" or "Indigenous", since these phrases can be used to refer to the
condition of various flora and fauna, and thus de-humanizes the subject. The
FN people in my family prefer that I refer to them thus as FNP.

There is a better guideline for how this should be addressed, because as you
no doubt can understand, its a sensitive issue:

[https://www.actcoss.org.au/sites/default/files/public/public...](https://www.actcoss.org.au/sites/default/files/public/publications/gulanga-
good-practice-guide-preferences-terminology-referring-to-aboriginal-torres-
strait-islander-peoples.pdf)

See also:

[https://www.commonground.org.au/learn/aboriginal-or-
indigeno...](https://www.commonground.org.au/learn/aboriginal-or-indigenous)

 _" Similarly to above ('First Australians'), 'First Nations' recognises
Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people as the sovereign people of this
land. It goes further than 'First Australians' as it recognises various
language groups as separate and unique sovereign nations. It is widely used to
describe the First Peoples in Canada and other countries across the globe.
Over recent years, the use of this term has grown in popularity. It is a
better choice than many outdated and offensive terms described above."_

~~~
crispinb
I haven't once heard 'First Nations People' used on the ground other than by
visiting speakers (usually from overseas). Indigenous & Koorie are the most
common terms used here (I live in the Northern Rivers - Bundjalung country).

~~~
mafm
The "first nations" phrase is used frequently on aboriginal radio in perth
(Noongar fm 100.9) At least half the people they talk to are from the eastern
states, so I don't think that the phrase is unusual (at least among the sort
of people who get interviewed on radio stations).

~~~
crispinb
Sure, I'm just saying I don't hear it 'on the street' where I live. I honestly
find the whole officially-approved nomenclature issue a bit overblown anyway.
I'm completely happy to use whatever people prefer, but have known enough
rednecks who can inflect racism into entitrely innocuous language, to feel
that 'correct' word choice is a pretty small determinant of what's
communicated. At least beyond the twitterverse.

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davidw
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mount_Mazama#Human_history](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mount_Mazama#Human_history)

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crater_Lake#Sacred_significanc...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crater_Lake#Sacred_significance)

the indigenous peoples near Crater Lake in Oregon have passed down stories
relating to its eruption nearly 8000 years ago.

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JoeAltmaier
Aren't these the people who have a hunting dance, with one section detailing
the hunting of a giant bird on two legs with giant claws? Bringing to mind the
Dromornis stirtoni, or "demon duck of doom" which has been extinct for 37,000
years.

~~~
jwmhjwmh
Could the bird be a cassowary? Those still live in Australia today.

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laxd
Another one that would be fun to believe [https://aeon.co/ideas/investigating-
homo-floresiensis-and-th...](https://aeon.co/ideas/investigating-homo-
floresiensis-and-the-myth-of-the-ebu-gogo)

~~~
goto11
I would love for this to be true, but I'm suspicious because the figure of a
women "troll" which trows her breast over her shoulders also exist in
Scandinavian folklore ("slattenpat").

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osaatcioglu
I remembered the article[1] talking about data as its own being, even maybe a
separate consciousness. And, then I thought a story dated back that many years
should be, arguably, the oldest preserved data that the intelligent life on
earth ever had so far. I am excluding the language itself, of course.

So, this makes it the most ancient branch of Dataome. It is quite cool to
observe the baby steps of the next evolutionary path.

[1][https://nautil.us/issue/65/in-plain-sight/the-selfish-
dataom...](https://nautil.us/issue/65/in-plain-sight/the-selfish-dataome)

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aaron695
What's the word for this? Where you tell or get a generic story then fit it to
specific objects or events?

They use it in Astrology all the time. So do Mind readers.

Jordan Peterson does this a well. I think what he does in general is based in
science, but his interpreting old stories is scientific nonsense, but
entertaining.

It is funny how people rail up against the colonial past, but then still treat
the natives like a different species exactly like the colonials. A mythical
tribe who could keep stories alive longer than 3 generations.

Even in societies with writing, stories corrupt after a hundred years. Look at
Grimm Fairy tales and the before and after versions we can find written. They
also had oral as well as writing but still couldn't hold it together.

~~~
crispinb
There's a phenomenon where people who know the least about a topic seem to
make the most confident pronouncements. It betokens a sad lack of curiosity.

Do even 10 minutes of reading and you'll find out that there are many cases of
scientists & ethnographers in Australia corroborating traditional story
details over thousands of years. Another 5 minutes and you'll find, again,
cases where indigenous elders have traversed country they've never been in
before, and gone straight to the only water sources existing in hundreds of
surrounding square kilometers. All based on traditional stories. Probe a
little further and you'll find out that much (though not all) is known about
the cultural technologies that have been used to keep the stories alive and
accurate over multiple generations.

Indigenous Australians aren't a 'different species'. But they do represent a
distinct civilisation, which has thrived all the way across a continent for
40-60,000 years. Part of how they have done this is by maintaining stories
about the land. This has little in common with industrial era unsubstantiated
superstitions about indigenous peoples' 'oral stories'.

~~~
flukus
With 10 minutes of reading (and I suspect anything less than many years of
study) I can't find out what the hit rate is. How many stories do they have?
How many describe verifiable events?

A single story that happens to correlate to a verifiable event is just cherry
picking and doesn't prove anything. And from what I've read from other similar
articles they just cherry pick a single story, correlate and call it proof.

------
ars
Maybe there were the more recent flows from this volcano?

I could not find info on when it went extinct.

~~~
princekolt
> There have been no other large volcanic eruptions in the area in the
> intervening years that could have provided inspiration for the stories

It's literally in the article

~~~
dwd
Not completely correct.

The Mount Gambier eruption (VEI 4) was about 5,000 years ago and it's only
100km away, so it's possible they had contact with people fleeing that area,
along with ash fall and a 10km high plume. VEI 5 and you have a Mount St
Helens scale event.

A similar eruption (and one of the more likely to occur in Australia) would be
catastrophic with the town literally built around the crater.

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c3534l
So there's a story about a volcano and there happens to be an old volcanic
formation nearby, therefor the story depicts an actual event an implausibly
long time ago. I find this as believable as Noah's Ark because there was a big
flood once. Show us more than just a single coincidence on an entire continent
of peoples.

~~~
ccsnags
The article itself provides more than one coincidence, but they are making
some assumptions that seem to be stretching what the evidence is able to
provide.

I dug a little deeper and found a host of interesting things but like the
article, there seems to be a bit of embellishment in what they can know with
the evidence provided.

The important take away is that we shouldn’t assume less technologically
advanced civilizations don’t have complex systems of communication. I think
much of the stories of our past are important, even when they seem to be
fantastic.

If Aboriginal storytelling has the ability to stay consistent over time, the
structure of such a thing would be valuable to the modern world.

