
Early owners of Tesla's Model 3 are reporting quality problems - edward
http://www.latimes.com/business/autos/la-fi-hy-tesla-model3-quality-20180218-story.html
======
salimmadjd
About a year ago, Tesla had a little demo setup in downtown Burlingame (here
in SV area). There was a Model X and a Model S. I love cars, so I went to take
a peek, but when I looked at the Model X, I instantly saw so many
manufacturing flaws. I could not believe how badly a $100K (or about) was
assembled. I thought to myself most cars in $20k range are not that poorly
manufactured. One side of the hood had such a larger gap compared to the other
side. The lines of the vehicle from A pillar to back did not align.

While I was there, a couple arrived with their BWM i3. We started talking and
I pointed out the Tesla flaws and decided to examine their i3. It was like one
care was made in a first-world and the other one assembled in a third-world
country. The gaps were so tight compared to the Model X with near perfect
symmetry. You can see the difference between a company with a history of auto
making and one stumbling to catch up.

These cars should all be labeled "Beta". That's the only honest thing, Musk
can and should do.

~~~
ChuckMcM
I don't disagree with your assessment, but I point out that it makes the
implicit assumption that Tesla customers care about fit and finish.

Tesla is selling every car they make. Not a single one lands in a parking lot
at a dealer while picky buyers survey it and compare it to something else. _At
the moment,_ the Tesla market is completely people who will buy it even if it
has old In-n-Out wrappers in the back seat.

What that means is that for Tesla, today, putting any money into fit and
finish, rather than in speed of production, loses them money. Once they have a
pipeline that can make more cars than they have pre-orders for, and start
putting them out on lots for more discerning eyes, _then_ the investment in
fit and finish will give a marginal boost in sales.

~~~
rsynnott
They’re not, in the scheme of things, making very many cars, though. Once the
true believers are exhausted, I suspect they’re in trouble.

~~~
evrydayhustling
The idea of the Model 3 is that there is another, much larger, set of true
believers who will pay $30-40k, behind those that already paid $100k. Behind
that, a much larger set if they get to $20k. In each case, early adopters can
subsidize learning about the production run, and be happy as long as they get
a unique experience (bumps allowed). I know a dozen folks who were part of the
$100k group, and zero of them are "exhausted".

~~~
Someone
That idea has yet to be tested. That will happen when/if (pick a word
depending on your opinion of Tesla) Tesla’s production levels get large enough
to make serious progress on fulfilling the existing pre-orders, especially of
the cheaper models (afaik, Tesla is only delivering the more expensive
variants of the 3, for now)

------
Cookingboy
Oh really? Didn't Elon Mask call Toyota's manufacturing "slower than a Grandma
with a walker" and he thinks Tesla will school Toyota, the company that
literally wrote the book on efficient manufacturing?

[https://www.forbes.com/sites/joannmuller/2018/02/16/tesla-
th...](https://www.forbes.com/sites/joannmuller/2018/02/16/tesla-thinks-it-
will-school-toyota-on-lean-manufacturing-fixing-model-3-launch-would-be-a-
start/#45f4e2984c74)

Silicon Valley hubris can be downright embarrassing sometimes.

~~~
gameswithgo
>Didn't Elon Mask call Toyota's manufacturing "slower than a Grandma with a
walker"

No, he said that of "Today's auto factories" not of Toyota in particular.

>and he thinks Tesla will school Toyota

The title of the article says that, but it doesn't appear Elon ever did, at
least he is not quoted as such in that article. He is claiming he thinks they
can eventually reach, via great difficulty, 5% more production from that plant
than Toyota did.

~~~
Cookingboy
>No, he said that of "Today's auto factories" not of Toyota in particular.

Last time I checked the big automakers all operate under Toyota's
manufacturing philosophy (again, they literally wrote the book on this
subject), and more than once Elon has dismissed industry's knowledge and
experience in this field.

Even without involving Toyota, most of "today's auto factories" operate at a
better efficiency and are producing higher quality vehicles in a larger
quantity than the Tesla factories. Maybe Elon is right, but it's best to say
that kind of things _after_ you are proven right.

~~~
bicknergseng
You're all over the comments on this article dumping on Tesla's quality, but
evidence seems to be anecdotal (in the form of comments on a forum for this
article).

Also last time I checked, the big automakers investigated and then abandoned
Toyota's manufacturing strategies, and it's the Korean manufacturers who have
taken top quality marks lately while Toyota has fallen. GM and American
manufacturers may have improved, but are still straight garbage when it comes
to quality control... I dare you to buy a Buick.

You might be write, but as you said it's best to say that kind of things after
you are proven right, and anecdotes and comments in a forum are hardly proof.

~~~
gamblor956
There are few surveys of Tesla owners because Tesla refuses to disclose buyer
lists to third-party research companies that have been trying to conduct such
surveys.

Also, anecdotes are data. They're not observational data, but they're data all
the same. One or two anecdotes might not indicate anything, but when you're
dealing with dozens or even hundreds of anecdotes from disparate groups of
owners, that's _data_ that something is seriously amiss with Tesla build
quality.

~~~
robkop
> Tesla refuses to disclose buyer lists to third-party research companies that
> have been trying to conduct such surveys.

I would prefer it if my car manufacturer wasn't selling out my personal
details so I can be harassed for surveys.

------
amluto
The Model S was like this, too. My Model S had a not-quite-fitting front
bumper (still problematic), thoroughly dysfunctional rear seatbelts (seemed to
affect _all_ of the first several thousand cars including the demo cars, now
fixed), some air leaks (gradually getting fixed at service visits), a 12V
battery that needed replacement at least once a year (fixed by firmware
upgrade -- the original charging algorithm seems to have been written without
any consideration for how lead-acid batteries behave), goo dripping out of the
sunroof ("fixed" by putting silicone sealant over the goo source), windshield
sprayers that are almost impossible to align correctly (design error,
presumably still affects current production), and probably several more
problems that I've forgotten about.

~~~
da02
Did you ever get tempted of returning it back?

~~~
toephu2
I don't think you can "return" a car if you are not satisfied with it.

~~~
tansey
You can if it's defective:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lemon_law](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lemon_law)

~~~
toephu2
I wasn't talking about if it was defective

------
drewg123
I'm a Model X owner. I have quality issues (loose seal & forgotten tow package
at delivery, Falcon Wing Door "alignment" issues), but the rest of the car is
well worth it. I consider the quality problems to just be the price of driving
the car of the future (though I really could do w/o those silly falcon wing
doors).

I don't think I have ever had a car that I love so much. It is big enough for
family and friends, burns no fossil fuel, and leaves almost any other car in
the dust off the line.

And it keeps getting better and better with software updates. In just the 4
months that I've owned the car, auto pilot has gotten noticeably better and
we've gotten tons of new little features.

~~~
lostmsu
I have a $20,000 Honda, and none of the listed issues are even imaginable.
Considering my model is not among the top selling ones, I'd say what you
describe counts as pretty significant quality control issues.

~~~
djrogers
I call baloney. A simple google search for "honda door alignment issues"
brings up a ton of forum posts of people complaining about this, from brand
new current models, going back many many years.

No question that Honda likely has fewer issues, but to claim they are not
'even imaginable' is horse-puckey.

~~~
abduhl
ironically, a simple google search for "Honda falcon wing door alignment
issues" brings up only Tesla results.

~~~
seanmcdirmid
How many Honda’s have falcon wings?

------
ilovecars2
I really dislike this trend that Tesla are setting where their customers are
little more than beta testers and I fear that the other automakers will follow
in their footsteps. When I purchase a car, whether it be Ford, Tesla or VW,
panel gap like
([https://twitter.com/model3owners/status/842449318749601793](https://twitter.com/model3owners/status/842449318749601793),
[https://twitter.com/bgluckman/status/965664986298306561?lang...](https://twitter.com/bgluckman/status/965664986298306561?lang=en))
is just not acceptable.

~~~
selectodude
"I'll give you the recipe. I called all the body engineers, stamping people,
manufacturing, and executives into my conference room. And I said, 'I am tired
of all these lousy body fits. You have six weeks to achieve world-class body
fits. I have all your names. If we do not have good body fits in six weeks, I
will replace all of you. Thank you for your time today."

-Ferdinand Piëch

There needs to be a culture from the top down of giving a shit about fit and
finish. It's exceedingly clear that Elon Musk does not care.

~~~
maxxxxx
"It's exceedingly clear that Elon Musk does not care."

Being CEO of only one company of this size is already a huge job. Being CEO of
two just seems like a big ego trip.

~~~
jzoch
Its been done before. Apple and Pixar did well under one leader for a time.
"Huge job" is relative to the person and their management style. If he has
realtively independent and driven teams for each company that require little
micromanagement than his job may not be as much work as you might imagine. Who
knows though?

------
ChadMoran
I have taken in my Model X for a front end vibration issue that they refuse to
fix 4 times. This is a June 2017 build, which is rather recent.

Tesla is deferring quality issues to their service centers instead of fixing
them at the factory.

It's a familiar situation. I want better quality but if you want the tech and
convenience a Tesla provides you really have no other option. There is a wide
gap between the lower end electric drive cars (Leaf, Bolt) vs Tesla. I love my
X I just wish the quality matched the price.

------
influx
This teardown previously on HN:

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QCIo8e12sBM](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QCIo8e12sBM)

Convinced me that Tesla has some major issues in manufacturing. To get into a
Model 3 with most of the features people want is closer to 45K, at which point
you could get a pretty damn good car from another manufacturer.

I'm cheering for Tesla, but come on, fit and finish should be on par with the
best, not something I should have to overlook.

------
SloopJon
My concern is that constrained production and quality issues could lead to
long repair times. There was a Motley Fool story last year about someone whose
Model S was in the shop for over seven months:

[https://www.fool.com/investing/2017/03/07/repairing-my-
tesla...](https://www.fool.com/investing/2017/03/07/repairing-my-tesla-model-
s-has-been-an-utter-night.aspx)

Discussion:

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13821109](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13821109)

------
motohagiography
This is a general product lesson. I read someone comment the other day that if
you build a flying car, people will still complain about the door handles and
trim. Tesla has revolutionized a technology, like an unimaginably odds beating
underdog that changes the economics of human civilization. But the business,
the function that decides whether they survive to affect the change they've
proven is possible is really a question of, are they building a better car?

As someone bootstrapping a product, (and of course I think my product is the
flying car game changer of my market) during the final painful trade offs
before MVP, it's the scores of "details" like this I'm taking on water to
resolve before showing it. Personally, I think you can only get way with
breaking rules if you've demonstrated you know them first, and
quality/experience issues cannot be sins of omission.

Where I'm confident I've developed a technology that will change the economics
of a market, the moment someone puts their faith in it and lets it into a
relationship they have with their stakeholders and it burns a bridge for them,
for me to exclaim, "but, but, flying car!" means nothing.

These are not details and corner cases, they are the existential aspects of
the business.

I think where Tesla is acceptable is that they are still in a market with
legacies like Land Rover, Jaguar, and used supercars, where people tolerate
bizarre diseconomies that would seem laughable to Toyota, Mercedes, and even
KIA owners.

However, there is a chasm for them to cross fully where they are no longer a
revolutionary technology, but actually a good car company. The lesson I take
from articles like this is that what I think of as details as a technologist
are in fact the differentiators in a business.

~~~
MBCook
> However, there is a chasm for them to cross fully where they are no longer a
> revolutionary technology, but actually a good car company.

This kind of stuff made sense when they were making the original Roadster and
hand assembled them (?). But the model S is now 6 years old and this is still
happening.

Fine, it was their first ‘real’ car. The Roadster was very low volume.

But the X has the same problem. And now the 3.

At what point does Tesla start acting like a ‘real’ company and decide these
kinds of defects aren’t acceptable?

The stuff I hear about Tesla’s process for this stuff sounds like the
descriptions of GM factories in The Machine That Changed The World. Just make
the cars, fix the worst of it at the end of the line, let service centers do
more after delivery to the customer.

~~~
dlwdlw
6 years is really long for many fields e.g. software. It may be really short
for cars though, especially if you are up against incumbents. The massive
demand probably doesn't help either.

It's not like it's intentional... It's simply the best there is currently and
it's competing against idealized thoughtforms. Of course reality can't match
the perfection of what can be thought.

~~~
selectodude
The incumbents aren’t going into their factories and sabotaging their build
quality. Tesla is just not making it a priority either via ignorance of how to
do it, or willfully not spending what it costs to do the job correctly.

------
bhauer
As a reservation holder, I can answer fairly quickly: Not really. I suspect
many early issues will be worked out by the time they finally get around to
building mine.

And most importantly: there is no other car I want more that I can afford. So
I will tolerate some quality issues.

~~~
Cookingboy
But there will be a point where Tesla has to sell to beyond the fanbase and
early reservation holder/enthusiasts, they have to sell it to the masses who
don't even necessarily know who Elon Musk is.

The Model 3 is aimed to be that car, but I have a feeling the general buyers
will be a lot less tolerant about issues than early adopters/long time fans.

~~~
samfisher83
People buy bmws and Mercedes and those cars all kinds of quality issues
especially after the warranty ends.

~~~
Cookingboy
And Tesla has all kinds of issues when the car is brand new. One can only
guess how bad they will get _after_ the warranty ends.

And Mercedes and BMW don't go out there and make fun of other people's
manufacturing.

------
michaelt
That's consistent with the review by Sandy Munro [1] who reported really poor
fit and finish quality - rattling doors, poorly fitted gaps around the trunk,
and so on.

Computer gamers know the perils of pre-ordering - you've got no recourse if
the product has reliability, quality or completeness problems. I hope Tesla
enthusiasts who pre-ordered realised the gamble they were taking.

[1]
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QCIo8e12sBM](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QCIo8e12sBM)
and
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lVfpotxHUzA](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lVfpotxHUzA)

------
jaimex2
Same thing happened with early Model S and X production.

No one cares, they are still selling those models faster than they can
produce.

Instant torque, Full charge each morning, Supercharging, Autopilot, OTA
updates, FSD ready > Random small issues

------
woodandsteel
Ok, lots of quality problems, but let's think about things in terms of their
larger significance.

Have the Tesla cars, in spite of their quality problems, revolutionized the
auto industry, pushing almost every major manufacturer to start BEV programs
and thereby being a major force in dealing with global warming and hence the
future of the human race? Yes.

Will Tesla, in the next year or two, greatly improve the quality of the Model
3? Probably.

Will Tesla autos continue to sell well? Probably.

So should you feel basically positive about Tesla? I say yes. Unless, of
course, you are in the fossil fuels or ICE business.

~~~
woodandsteel
Looking at this from another angle, it seems to me that Musk had a choice
between going slowly so he could produce automobiles with few quality
problems, and charging ahead full speed to produce a large number of
revolutionary autos. I think he picked the smart option.

------
mh8h
The question is, can the incumbent luxury car manufacturers figure out the
technology and supply chain of electric cars and batteries before Tesla can
figure out how to manufacture high quality cars?

------
rizwank
Owner of a M3. My first Tesla. I have number 40xx.

I adore the damn thing. Seeing software updates makes me happy. I compare it
to my last favorite car, my Volt which claimed to support updates; but never
patched it’s awful UI.

It is a bit raw. I had to leave the car at the service center due to some door
handle issues. I received a loaner model S, and it’s was fixed impeccably. The
X had a trunk issue for a ton of cars needing a rain proof cover on the trunk-
and every owner got it.

There are quality issues. So far I’ve seen everything fixed at Tesla’s
expense, with similar reports on TMC. It is a different paradigm though - far
more a reliable software platform (where they fix things when they are broke)
than the typical “here is your car” model.

There is a bit of fandom in which earlier adopters are willing to put up with
issues. As I said, I love the car, and as long as they keep patching issues
(HW & SW) that come up, I’ll accept some issues.

Don’t want the issues? Wait a half year. But recall that they have 18 months
of backlog. Most would consider that a commercial success.

------
LeonM
Today I saw a X P100DL on the parking lot at work, I immediately noticed that
both (!) the tail lights had moisture in them. This is a brand new 160.000
euro* car, this should in no way be acceptable. If that was my car, I'd would
have returned it to dealership.

* In the Netherlands, the base price of a 'ludicrous' edition is 159.430,- euro.

------
ProfessorLayton
I really hope Tesla manages to pull it together because competition is good
for everyone, but the quality bar they have to meet has gotten pretty high.

My Civic is still holding up exceptionally well in regards to materials and
fit and finish at 12 years old. The only rattles come from the fact that I
installed 3rd party speakers the car was not meant to handle.

I expect Tesla to be at least as well built as an econobox from the mid 2000s

------
Domenic_S
Pre-reveal non-owner reservation holder here. I suspect this will be unusual:
between constant delays and consistent quality problems, I cancelled my
reservation last week. I got a plug-in hybrid instead, for about the same
price as the Model 3.

I'm a huge believer in the tech and Musk's vision of the future. I learned I
am _not_ a believer in Musk-the-executor when it comes to cars.

~~~
dnautics
Musk has a long track record of delivering late (think how late falcon 9 heavy
is, how late falcon 9 was)

~~~
bsder
We call difficult things "rocket science" for a reason, you know ... so, not
the most apt comparison.

However, even if Tesla goes out of business because they can't scale up, I
will be grateful to Musk for kicking the incumbents in the ass about electric
cars. I suspect we wouldn't have the Leaf or Volt without Tesla (see: GM EV-1,
for example).

~~~
Domenic_S
Nobody’s saying the work is easy, only that it is consistently late over and
over (and he’s the one setting his own deadlines).

------
nabla9
This is to be expected. Consumer reports ranks Tesla close to the bottom in
reliability. So far people who buy Tesla are willing to tolerate low quality
if they get the features they want. Camaro has low reliability as well.

The real question is if this strategy works when manufacturing volume grows.

~~~
davidgould
> Consumer reports ranks Tesla close to the bottom in reliability.

This is simply false. I have the March 2018 Car Issue of Consumer Reports in
my hand. They segmented Tesla P85D into a group: "Cars: Ultra-Luxury" and put
it at the top in the overall rating. In specifically the Predicted Reliablity
rating the P85D was rated "Above Average". The other car with "Above Average"
reliablity in that group was the BMW 750i xDrive.

The remaining cars were: Genesis G90, MB S550, Audi A8, Jaguar XJL. To avoid
fouling CU's copyright I will give the reliability ratings out of order to the
list of cars. The rating of the group excluding the BMW and Tesla: Average,
Less Than Average, Average, Average.

No car in the group rated higher for reliability than the Tesla. Hardly "close
to the bottom".

For the curious Consumer Reports reliability ratings are based on an annual
detailed survey of their membership. They have had a consistent methodology
for years and have defended in in court (manufacturers don't like to be called
"Worse than Average") successfully repeatedly. I don't take them as gospel on
everything, but the car reliability data seems solid.

~~~
nabla9
Look at the December 2017 issue of consumer reports brand reliability report
[1].

As I said, Model 3 is different. Musk said that Model 3 is supposed to be Audi
A4, BMW 3 Series, Mercedes-Benz C-Class type car with large production volume.

\---

[1]: Car Brands Reliability: How They Stack Up Ranking the brands and showing
their most and least reliable cars [https://www.consumerreports.org/car-
reliability-owner-satisf...](https://www.consumerreports.org/car-reliability-
owner-satisfaction/car-brands-reliability-how-they-stack-up/)

~~~
davidgould
Ok, the article I linked was model specific to the model S and is four months
newer. I retract the "simply false", it is complexly somewhat false maybe.
Sigh. For instance from the same issue as your post we have "Tesla Model S
Owners Report Improved Reliability" [1]

I guess the crystal ball has not settled yet and we may have to wait a while
to find out what CU really thinks. I suspect the model X which has had some
problems is weighing down the brand average. I also recall that for a while CU
was not recommending Teslas due to reliability, but later restored the rating
citing improved reliability.

[1] [https://www.consumerreports.org/car-reliability-owner-
satisf...](https://www.consumerreports.org/car-reliability-owner-
satisfaction/tesla-model-s-model-3-reliability/)

------
Shivetya
The issue not raised is that every quality problem Tesla fixes after a car
delivered is going to have a cost associated with it and that will raise the
cost of the whole run. What becomes very important is if a crash or injury
gets linked back to a manufacturing defect. I am just amazed it can get past
not only the factory but the delivery center in that condition.

I am really wondering the entry level model will ever come out or if by late
this year Tesla will discontinue it because of "lack of interest". As in, save
money by dropping what would not be a profitable model but pass it off as a
customer decision.

I still plan to wait a bit before I got BEV, the range hit in winter months is
just too dramatic; a reddit poster observed that near freezing freeway drives
brought his range to 230 from 310.

If anything with the burn rate they have they should retrench and put out the
big ticket items first, the semi and sports car.

------
Steko
Oh look, the Muskonauts have flagged this story, which should be in the top 3
based on pts/time to the bottom of the 2nd page. Yes there are other factors
that can drop a post's rank, but not by that much.

I thought HN had a vouch system to counter flag abuse, was it done away with?

