
The Long, Slow Death of Venice - pseudolus
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2019-06-30/venice-is-dying-a-long-slow-death
======
lqet
People have been saying that Venice only has a few more years for over 200
years now since the end of the republic, and it is still there, and still
breathtakingly beautiful.

However, I have been to Venice 3 times in the last 10 years. People here
arguing that Venice is "full of people" have not visited the city, but only
the cities attractions. It is as simple as that. Even in the peak season when
the city center is massively overcrowded by tourists, you (literally) only
have to walk 10 minutes from Piazza San Marco to find yourself basically alone
on lovely squares in the middle of the day. It is at the same time extremely
beautiful and eerie, because you suddenly realize that the square is not only
empty because there are no tourists there, but also because most of the
apartment windows are blind, with nobody living behind them. Offside the
tourist routes, Venice largely feels like a ghost town.

It is indeed sad, but if you stay in the city as a tourist long enough, you
get why locals are leaving. The last time, we stayed there for 10 days in a
small apartment, and starting with day 2, our hatred for the masses coming off
the cruise ships like a biblical locust plague grew exponentially to a point
where we completely avoided the city center between 10 in the morning and 9 in
the evening.

~~~
drdeadringer
What was the experience between 9pm and 10am?

~~~
matwood
> What was the experience between 9pm and 10am?

The time I went a few years ago it was pretty dead. I'm not a big Venice fan.
It's a pretty city that's worth seeing before it sinks away, but I enjoy other
cities for repeat visits.

I mentioned in another comment a few weeks ago that if I wanted to visit
Venice again I would stay in Rovinj, Croatia and take the local ferry over for
the day. When I went to Venice we took the ferry over and stayed in Venice,
and after seeing the Venice highlights really just wanted to go back to
Crotia.

~~~
davidw
That's not just a quick ferry ride... it's like 3 hours, one way.

------
8draco8
When I was going to Venice for the first time one of my co-workers gave me one
little advice "when you will go out of train station, go right not left" and
it was a fantastic advice. Route to the left is main route to Piazza San
Marco, it's almost always overcrowded, with a lot of shady sellers, lots of
shops selling cheap, china made souvenirs etc. pretty much all the things that
you most likely want to avoid. On top of that advice I am also adding my own:
"get lost in Venice", just go in the other direction and I will guarantee you
that in 5 minutes you will end up alone in a beautiful place with some small
restaurant, seemingly waiting just for you. Venice is still beautiful and
worth visiting, just don't spent so much time on visiting places from the
guides, get lost and you will find gems that you wouldn't find otherwise.

~~~
lqet
Absolutely, and if you just wander around without a map, you will get lost
_very_ quickly. But you will not regret it.

My tips for anyone who wants to visit Venice: please don't support the cruise
ships destroying this beautiful city, just use the train. Come for at least 5
days. Try to slowly walk through every quarter of the city (you will need 5-10
days for that). Buy a week ticket for the vaporettos and ride the vaporetto up
and down canal grande in the evening. Don't dress like a stereotypical
tourist. Please behave. If you are American or Chinese, actively try to lower
your voice. Leave your smartphone and/or your camera at your apartment /
hotel, everything you will be photographing has been photographed, painted or
drawn at least a million times already. And, most importantly: don't ride the
gondolas, you _will_ get screwed financially.

~~~
rayiner
I find the tourist snobbery amusing. If you’re a tourist, what are you going
to dress like apart from like a tourist? As to your smart phone, are you
saying that the locals don’t have their nose buried in a smart phone, like
everyone else? Are the different quarters of Venice sufficiently different
from each other (and from other european cities) to be worth visiting? As to
gondolas—if you don’t ride one, what’s the point of going to Venice? You can
get great Italian food and ride a ferry through filthy water in New York—if
you’re taking the trouble to go to Venice, you’re there for the gondolas.

~~~
alteria
I used to think like lqet, and my travel habits reflected that, traveling to
obscure places (at least for an American) to "get away from the crowds."

But the more I thought about it, the less comfortable I was with that line of
thinking. What IS wrong with taking a picture that isn't 100% original? Is
taking a picture of Piazza San Marco just as bad as a landscape photographer
getting that "perfect shot" of Antelope Canyon? or Mesa Arch? [1][2]

What if you are an American with very limited vacation time each year? Or you
just want an "easy" vacation? Why is one style of travel better than the
other? Does a place having a ton of visitors make it worse to visit? Or is
there still value to going?

I'm just rambling at this point, but I'd love to hear anyone's thoughts since
I'm not sure what to feel.

[1] [https://media-
cdn.tripadvisor.com/media/photo-s/0f/1b/ec/c6/...](https://media-
cdn.tripadvisor.com/media/photo-s/0f/1b/ec/c6/crowded-conditions-in.jpg) [2]
[https://www.johntrotto.com/wp-
content/uploads/2017/12/IMG_27...](https://www.johntrotto.com/wp-
content/uploads/2017/12/IMG_2741_600px_w.jpg)

~~~
maximente
> I used to think like lqet, and my travel habits reflected that, traveling to
> obscure places (at least for an American) to "get away from the crowds."

that seems odd to say the least. it seems highly probable to me that popular
tourist attractions are popular because they're desirable to go to. sure,
there's some marketing drum up in there but there's something seriously weird
about going to less desirable places solely to get away from the crowds. it's
almost as if you're signaling you're somehow superior or better by doing
something other people aren't doing, even if that thing is objectively worse.
value signaling made manifest via tourism or something.

~~~
9nGQluzmnq3M
Famous/extremely popular sights are often less rewarding _because_ they are so
famous/popular: for example, it's highly unlikely you'll be genuinely
astonished by the enigmatic smile of the Mona Lisa at the Louvre, because a)
you've already seen it a million times and b) there's a jostling mob of other
tourists five rows deep around it, so you can barely see the damned thing.

This is why the "traveller" (vs tourist) holy grail is to find places that are
genuinely impressive _and_ spacious enough to still be enjoyable.

~~~
maximente
that's fair, but i'm thinking more things like machu picchu which, while uber
popular, are probably pretty hard to find in less amazing versions.

so yeah, while certainly only limited to a few places, i think there's a class
of spots that one cannot necessarily reproduce in a lite version. so
especially if one has limited travel opportunities, i think they're worth
going to. venice is probably one of those although admittedly i haven't been.

~~~
Celexior
La Ciudad Perdida, a not inca-version (for the amazing part I am not sure
about that).

------
hn_throwaway_99
I'm not sure why I'm making this association, but I feel that what's happening
to Venice is systematic of larger, "flashy, saccharine surface" societal
changes, fed by the internet and social media.

Venice (and Barcelona, also mentioned in the article) is basically the perfect
city for the Instagram age. You can come in, spend less than a couple hours
there, and pretty much hit all the major "checkboxes" and photo sites: ride in
a gondola, take some pictures in St. Mark's Square, etc. All the incredible
history about how the city was actually built, it's role in the Middle Ages,
etc. are easy to pass over.

This is pretty random, but it reminds me of this video,
[https://youtu.be/6abePkXncCM](https://youtu.be/6abePkXncCM) , by a well known
youtube baker who is lamenting that high-quality baking content for recipes
that _actually_ work are getting killed by slickly produced videos that are
literal eye and ear candy but are useless and aren't even feasible. It's as if
we're all looking out for the shortest, quickest "dopamine bump".

It's just really sad to me.

~~~
asveikau
I don't think social media is the primary driver, because I had similar
thoughts about travel 10 years ago.

I would say a few things are factors for some of what is described:

1\. It's relatively cheap and easy to travel. This wasn't as much the case in
the past.

2\. Population boom of millennials and onwards. I have a boomer mom and a pre-
war dad who was born in Europe. They both see international travel as a Major
Barrier with a lot of friction. I remember that seeming true in my childhood
too. The younger cohorts have grown up with it being relatively cheap and
easy.

3\. The EU. Go to the touristy part of a touristy town in Europe, I guarantee
you will hear the national language and native accent of every EU member
state. I can't imagine it being like that several decades ago. It also drives
tourism from outside Europe because they can enter in one country and cross
over to another without hassle.

~~~
toyg
It's just the logical evolution of tourism as a business activity. Capitalist
companies must grow, and tourism companies grow by delivering more and more
tourists.

That's why travelling gets cheaper: economies of scale (block-booking on
planes, etc). That's why VISAs and barriers are removed: because there is yet
another industry lobbying to remove friction.

Tourism companies gotta grow like any other company out there. We just notice
them more because their production line is literally on our streets.

------
thomasfl
Old Venice is still the worlds largest car free city. No matter how many
tourists the city receives a year, no one drives around in cars in this
compact and very pedestrian friendly urban environment. Water filled canals
are obviously not a good solution for most cities. Cities planned for private
cars, seems like a really bad idea after walking around a few days in Venice.

~~~
dredmorbius
Water-filled canals may become increasingly popular over the next century.

~~~
toper-centage
Water filled everything will be all the rage later this century.

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graeme
>A large vessel pays up to 30,000 euros a day to dock in the harbor

In situations of overcrowding, it seems the obvious solution is simply to
raise taxes and fees, in order to lower the number of tourists. This would
raise more revenue from each tourist while cutting maintenance costs which are
driven by volume.

Is there some non-obvious reason this isn't done?

~~~
NikolaeVarius
Because lowering the number of tourists means lowering the amount of money
coming in for tourist services.

~~~
aeorgnoieang
That's not necessarily true. Like with pricing anything else, the maximum
total revenue is at a price that's neither 'too low' or 'too high'. And the
residents of Venice seem willing to forego some revenue for less tourists
anyways.

~~~
Gimpei
Exactly. Artificially reducing the supply of diamonds doesn't reduce profit.
It increases it.

------
rwallace
Everyone talks about the tourists, because they're what's visible, but it
seems that the actual reason for the city being abandoned has nothing to do
with the tourists, and everything to do with local law prohibiting people from
living in available residential property:

> He is also a member of ASC, or “assemblea sociale per la casa”, an
> association of local residents that seeks to give empty or abandoned houses
> back to people and families. While this is illegal, because the houses
> belong to a public group which manages them, it has also helped bring some
> abandoned areas in the city back to life.

~~~
buboard
I wonder who want to live in a beautiful sinking house in a swamp where little
activity beyond bars and shopping is available

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tim333
It's kind of odd to call it the death of a city when the place is jammed with
people, just because they are the wrong type of people. Bit like saying Ibiza
is dead in the summer because it's packed with people visiting Ibiza.

~~~
ng12
Alternatively, it's like calling Disneyworld a city. Lots of people there
during the day, lots of people staying overnight, but not many people truly
living there.

~~~
lmm
Why is people living there something we should want though? Lots of people
love visiting Venice. Relatively few people actually want to live there (at
least, at the price it would cost to balance the number of tourists one
permanent resident would have to displace). It seems like Venice generates the
greatest happiness of the greatest number of people by acting as a tourist
destination; isn't that something we should celebrate?

~~~
jgwil2
Surely something is lost too though? Part of what makes Venice an attraction
is its unique history, a product of many thousands of residents living there
for hundreds of years. The world's cultural heritage is diminished when a
place like that ceases to be a living city.

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in_cahoots
The data in this article is extremely suspect if not flat out wrong, which
makes me question everything else. First the article claims that the city’s
population rallied in the 1970s. Later a graph caption states that its
population is less than 1/3 of the 1950s. But the graph itself shows that
neither of these things are true- the population has been declining nearly
monotonically since 1901, with no rise in the 1970s and, at most, a 50%
decline since 1950. It just goes to show that modern editors need to be data-
conscious in addition to looking at grammar.

~~~
volkl48
You are partially misreading the graph, although with their poor presentation
I can understand why.

Each bar on the graph looks to be a certain population count/census, and
presumably they were conducted less often in the first part of the century. If
you mouse over the bars on the graph they tell you what year they were
conducted in.

\-----------

The point here, is that in spite of the X-Axis being labeled as 1901-2018
(which would make you think the bars are even time intervals), they are not.

The population peak, while nearly at the left side is actually in _1951_
according to the mouseover text. So the 1/3rd of 1950s population claim is
accurate.

\----------

> and though it rallied again to near 16th century levels in the 1970s, today
> there are just one third as many Venetians as 50 years ago.

I suspect this may be typo, as if you flip the 5 and 7 it would be about
accurate. "...in the 1950s, today there are just one third as many Venetians
as 70 years ago."

\-----------

I agree that none of this inspires particular confidence in their editing or
fact-checking.

~~~
in_cahoots
Thanks! On my phone I didn’t think to click on the individual graph bars. The
visualization is wildly misleading if you don’t see the text on each
individual bar.

------
buboard
What other option is there? Venice is not a livable city except perhaps for
the retired. The tourist bubble wont last forever either, and i cant think
what will follow. Its a very expensive museum. Perhaps they might sell some
palaces to the megayacht crowd in the future. Its just difficult to start an
economy inside a museum where you cant even bike.

------
fourstar
I think it’s hilariously ironic that the majority of commentators in this
thread are so annoyed with other tourists, yet they are themselves.

~~~
moate
There was an onion tourism article recently about how the ONLY way to
experience Chicago like a REAL Chicago native is to get a job there, find an
apartment and move there.

There's no "authentic" tourist experience relative to how locals live. You're
not going to vote for town council in the week you're there. You don't have
well informed opinions about the state of things. You're just eating some cool
snacks and visiting pretty/interesting locations.

~~~
why_only_15
It's a travel vlog: [https://www.theonion.com/how-to-experience-chicago-like-
a-lo...](https://www.theonion.com/how-to-experience-chicago-like-a-local-by-
settling-down-1835336019)

------
Strom
Here's some video footage of the cruise ship ramming that was mentioned in the
article.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GyCLhvxpQt0](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GyCLhvxpQt0)

~~~
kevin_thibedeau
A few years ago I witnessed a cruise ship nearly collide with the parking
garage next to the Intrepid museum. It only stopped with four feet to spare.
They were scrambling to evacuate everyone from the sub that shares the same
berth.

------
acheron
I loved Venice when I first visited, almost two decades ago. I lived there for
a few months. Went back again just for a week a little while later, around
2005. Sounds like tourism has gotten way bigger even just since then. I don't
think the giant cruise ships started coming in until later in the 00s. (There
were small ships, but I remember reading about some change in that decade that
started allowing the gigantic ones. The city later tried to ban them but has
not been successful.)

I always wanted to go back, but I wonder if it's worth it or if I should just
remember when I was there originally.

~~~
LameRubberDucky
If I remember correctly, they dredged out the area near the docks so the
deeper water could allow the larger ships.

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jrockway
Does a city built in a lagoon with canals for streets have a place in the
future world of rising seas? Maybe it's a blessing that residents are leaving
because there are too many tourists. Better the gradual exodus than thousands
dead and the rest being plucked off the top of their house by a helicopter
when the next superstorm arrives.

It is sad, but I don't think anyone is taking climate change seriously enough
to reverse it... so I don't see any outcome other than the Venice of today
becoming the Atlantis of tomorrow.

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Tade0
_In the car-free historical center, the wait for a spot on a “vaporetto”—the
canal-borne local version of a bus—can be up to 20 minutes, despite the 6 euro
($7) fare._

That's why you don't buy a single-use ticket and go for the day pass instead,
which is €20-ish.

My SO works seasonally in Venice, so I visit the city every year and while
it's overflowing with tourists, they seem to be concentrated mostly around
Rialto - with districts like Cannaregio more or less free from crowds.

------
ur-whale
The same kind of "slowly being choked to death by massive tourism" is starting
to happen to Barcelona as well.

[https://www.theguardian.com/travel/2018/aug/30/why-
tourism-i...](https://www.theguardian.com/travel/2018/aug/30/why-tourism-is-
killing-barcelona-overtourism-photo-essay)

~~~
buboard
When the tourists will leave, Barcelona will still be a city, i m not so sure
about Venice

------
simonebrunozzi
My wife is from Venezia, and I've been there dozens of times in the last few
years (despite we live in San Francisco).

On the topic "number of residents", two interesting things:

1) "Comune di Venezia" is the municipality, not the set of islands commonly
referred to as Venice, or historical Venice. The number of inhabitants there
is higher.

2) There's a pharmacy nearby the Rialto bridge with a display showing how many
residents in Venezia: [http://www.veneziatoday.it/cronaca/contatore-
veneziani.html](http://www.veneziatoday.it/cronaca/contatore-veneziani.html)

------
davidw
For a nice alternative, check out Chioggia - and if you have a lot of time,
maybe Pellestrina:

[https://blog.therealitaly.com/2015/01/08/pellestrina/](https://blog.therealitaly.com/2015/01/08/pellestrina/)

------
beamatronic
Seems I waited too long to visit. True of many places.

~~~
js2
I was there a few year ago with my wife and kids. We stayed in an airbnb on
Venice. You can spend the day around the outskirts and avoid most of the
cruise ship tourists. At night you have the island to yourself to explore. We
also visited Murano which was almost deserted.

I actually enjoyed Venice much more than Florence.

Italy is a big place and there's tons to see. Make Venice just a couple days
of your trip and you'll probably enjoy it.

(Aside, to me it's tour groups that are the worst, with bus loads and cruise
loads being the most egregious example. I've seen this everywhere I've been a
tourist. A destination that can easily handle a stream of individuals or
families becomes overwhelmed when 20+ tourists arrive all at once. Venice
would definitely be helped by a metering system.)

~~~
misiti3780
Skip them both and go to Sicily. Some of the nicest and generous people I have
ever met I met there. Outside a few places, there are basically no tourists
and rural Sicily is beautiful with no english being spoken. The wines coming
from Etna are much more interesting and cheaper than anything from Tuscany or
further north also.

------
coldtea
> _And now they’re being forced to pay up like tourists too. Many business
> owners have abandoned the old two-tier pricing system that charged visitors
> more for food and services, meaning locals now pay the same inflated prices
> that outsiders do._

That's the problem right there. Such pricing should be enforced by the city
plus an entry "visa" style payment...

~~~
userulluipeste
Or, to stimulate the competition somehow, to drive the price down for
everyone.

I think your "visa" sugestion was a joke, but I'm afraid that the sarcastic
nature may get lost and the message may be misinterpreted and taken on its
face value.

~~~
coldtea
No, my visa suggestion is very much serious.

Venice is a very popular destination spot. It should raise the barrier to
entry accordingly, to attract fewer, more lucrative, tourists. It should also
use the money to protect the residents of the city, and its buildings and
monuments.

------
ng12
Venice's problem seems obvious to me -- there are no roads. And you can't bike
or use a scooter since the alleyways are narrow, zig-zagging, and full of
stairs. The only modes of transportation are to walk or to take the ferry to
one of it's very few of stops.

It's a casuality of modernity, there is no use for a densely packed city built
on a dozen slabs of rock in the middle of the sea.

~~~
dr_dshiv
Completely agree. What they really need is to rip out a bunch of those old
buildings so they make room for a good interstate highway with a cloverleaf
exit near San Marcos. That would really modernize the city.

~~~
ng12
I'm not suggesting they modernize it, I'm suggesting there's a reason why it's
a tourist trap and not a city.

