

Ask Career HN: Go back to employer or start fresh? - thesisist

Dear Hackernews, I need some career advice from people that would know: After High School I interned at a small startup, at that time it was just me and the three founders. About a year later I went to College, but continued to do work for them, mostly dumb copy&#38;paste HTML stuff, rarely more complex and time sensitive design work.<p>Fast forward six years: I am about to finish my M.Sc., I am still with the company (doing the same work at the same low rate, gotta pay the rent), the company now has more than 20 employees and was bought for a considerable amount by one of the largest media companies of the country/world. The founders are leaving the company (and while the company will stay independent, suits will be taking over) and approached me about a "frontend and usability" position at the company on pretty short notice: They liked how versatile and loyal I was, how I know the company, know the processes, etc<p>I was flattered, but also alarm bells went off: It's great to be offered a job without even applying for one, however, I am afraid that if I go back, I will continue doing the same stupid work I have done before, even though I now have Masters Degree and shifted my focus considerably (from design to development, which was advice from one of the founders, and I am really thankful for that).  The company will definitely undergo some restructuring with interesting opportunities (and I think it will be interesting to experience a company transitioning from a small startup to something bigger), however there are enough people at the company that know I was the "HTML guy".<p>I was always quite busy with school so in terms of internships, my CV is lacking (just a couple of side-projects and freelance jobs). On the one hand, it has always been a dream of mine to go startup hopping and learn from many different experiences, but I am afraid that I won't even be considered for something remotely interesting and will become and stay unemployed. On the other hand is my current employer (with a very large parent company) offering a position that has the potential to open many doors (maybe some I would never get to otherwise) and would be a big name on my CV, potentially making getting internships later easier.<p>I am wondering what to do: Should I ask for an rather high salary to see if they really consider me an asset to the company? How can I make sure I will not be treated as an intern anymore? What looks better on a CV, many Startups or one large corporation? What would you do if you were 26 and broke? Any advice is truly appreciated. Thanks.
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gregpilling
I would suggest asking for a market rate salary worthy of the position and
degree that you recently received. If they agree, then fine. If they don't
then move on. In 2006 I had a mechanical engineering intern that worked for my
company (manufacturing) about 10 hours a week. Once he graduated, he came to
me for advice about which jobs he should apply for. At that point I had to
choose between paying market rate or losing a guy that had the right talents
and experience, who was already up-to-speed with our company processes.

I decided to keep him, and doubled his pay to do it. He wasn't twice as good
as he was the day before, but we were at the point where company growth
demanded a full-time engineering presence and he was the best choice for the
job. My other alternatives would have been to spend a lot of time recruiting
to find another engineer that would need to be integrated into the company and
paid market rate anyway. Perhaps I was underpaying him as an intern, but the
workload he was given was not demanding and we were exceptionally flexible
with his hours and schedule. We also financially supported his Formula SAE
team at the University. He ended up staying for three years and then going
back to school to get a PhD.

As for your concern about being treated as an intern, don't worry. If they
increase your pay they will certainly increase your workload and
responsibility. After all, they are now paying for it. With founders leaving
the company you could end up one of the most senior people in that division.

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SabrinaDent
It sounds like you're making decisions without data. You don't seem to have a
solid job description, reporting chain or salary ballpark. Were it me, I would
ask for those things so you could get a clear picture of what you're actually
deciding on and the parameters of the position.

Having said that, there's the old sawhorse where employed people are always
more desirable candidates, so the option to take the job to pay the bills
while looking for other work may be a good one for you.

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aeontech
Look at it this way: what are you learning at this job? Chances are, having a
six year history of being an intern there (which is, btw, an extremely long
time to be an intern in my opinion), just getting a different title will not
make people treat you any different than they have up to now. Did they offer
you a single raise in six years? If not, they don't see any value in you that
is specific to you, rather, you are easily replaceable. We've had interns at
companies I worked for before, and they all either moved on after six months
to a year, or got hired full time. Not a single one has stayed an intern for
six years.

I'd strongly suggest looking for new positions for multiple reasons.

1\. You will have a clean slate and can grow as fast as you want, without the
history of being the eternal intern.

2\. You will get experience interviewing and talking to different kinds of
companies and teams.

3\. You will almost certainly get paid considerably more than you are now.

4\. You will almost certainly find a position doing work that is more
interesting/rewarding than dumb copy and paste grunt work.

That being said, if you like the company, like the team, and/or like the work,
definitely talk to them first. Ask for a competitive salary (do some research
of what the position you are being hired for normally pays). Ask what kind of
benefits they offer. If they really want you to stay on, they should have no
problem offering you a decent rate.

I wouldn't worry about staying unemployed. Engineers tend to take their skills
for granted and not realize how valuable they actually are. You can always
find freelance work if you work on it, and despite the economy, the hiring in
IT sector is not slowing down as far as I can see. If you are bright and good
at what you do, many companies will even pay for relocation if you are not
local.

You are young and just finishing college, this is the best time to take these
kinds of risks. You'll have a much harder time deciding to join a startup or
quitting an unsatisfying job if you have a family to support.

Companies that truly value you, will want you to be engaged and fascinated by
the work you're doing - that is how you get the best work from the engineers
and they know it. Companies that don't understand that, end up with teams of
unhappy engineers. In some companies, you can transfer to a different team,
work on new projects, and find new interests - other companies have a set hole
for you to fill, and if you are not happy being a cog, you are stuck.

In the end, ask yourself whether you feel like you are growing and learning
anything from the work you are doing and the team you are working with. If you
are stagnating, it's time to either change your position in the company if
they are simply not utilizing your potential, or look for a different company
if they have no work for you that challenges you.

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brudgers
> _"I was flattered, but also alarm bells went off: It's great to be offered a
> job without even applying for one, however, I am afraid that if I go back, I
> will continue doing the same stupid work I have done before, even though I
> now have Masters Degree and shifted my focus considerably"_

> _"The founders are leaving the company"_

Given the founders exit, it is much less likely that your growth will go
unrecognized.

Good candidates are offered jobs without applying everyday.

Talking with the suits about a new role would be the place to start.

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stoney
You don't mention any concrete alternatives in your post (i.e. other job
offers or project ideas). Assuming that you don't have anything else lined up
then I would take the job - you can always quit if the work pans out to not be
what you wanted or if they treat you like an intern. Worst case just use it as
a stop-gap to earn some cash and buy some time.

Quitting a job too soon after taking it can look bad on your CV, but not
always. In your case you've kind of been employed by them for a while, so I
don't think you need to worry about CV damage there.

What looks good on your CV really depends on who is looking at your CV. I
don't think corporation vs start up makes much difference. A broad range of
experience looks good, loyalty looks good. You can give the appearance of both
whichever way you go.

As for asking for a higher salary... decide what you think you're worth,
decide how much you want the job, guess what you think they'll pay, then
adjust your request accordingly. If you really want the job then be a bit
conservative, if you're not that bothered either way, and it sounds like
you're not, then aim high.

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bwh2
Go somewhere else. You need to challenge yourself. It sounds like you know
this and have already decided, but you just want social verification. Here it
is.

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phamilton
I worked for a summer at a pool plastering company in Los Angeles. While the
work was mindless and painful (LA can be hot!), there were actually a few
important things I learned.

We often finished pools in Beverly Hills. One job we did was a "grout demo".
The deck of their pool was tiled rock and they just didn't like the grout. It
"wasn't sparkly enough" apparently. We didn't want to do such a pointless job
that would take so much time. So the owner of the company bid on the job. He
gave them a figure that was so ridiculously high that he wouldn't mind doing
something that pointless. They agreed (crazy people live in Beverly Hills).

Moral of the Story: Find your price. Figure out how much they would have to
pay you to get you to do the same thing you've always done, regardless of how
much value you feel that adds to the company. If they balk at that price,
fine. You wouldn't want to work for less than that anyway. If they take it...
good, you are valued.

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whatevers2009
1\. Finding a job in this economy is difficult. If you're on the verge of
graduating, find something to back up before you up and walk even if that was
a consideration.

2\. Always negotiate. Explain that when you started, you just finished high
school. Now, years later with a lot more experience and a better understanding
and nearly with a degree under your belt, you'd like to negotiate for pay. It
isn't unreasonable to ask. Base on their response, you can decide what to do
from there.

3\. I think in the long run, depending on how the above two scenario plays
out, you should be bright enough to play with the options you're given. But as
you've said, you're broke, out of school soon, will probably go into repayment
for student loans if you took any, and unless you got something else lined up,
I wouldn't purposely fudge this and think of it as either or. Negotiate and
talk to them. Figure out your choice after you've figured out what your
options are.

~~~
hallmark
Just because there is high unemployment nationwide, don't assume that getting
a software development job will be historically difficult. After long hiring
freezes, tech companies - more specifically, the team leaders who end up
interviewing you - are dying to hire new employees to fulfill pent up demand
in their own teams. The preference is for experienced candidates, but smart
new grads are also welcome. This is from my experience in the San Francisco
Bay Area.

I'll second the previous recommendations to go out and interview with other
companies. You didn't include many specifics, but I'll assume your master's
degree is in Computer Science and that you are smart. If you don't interview
well, treat each real interview as practice.

Your relatives may warn you about the economy and send you newspaper clippings
showing all the unemployment. I have a hard time convincing my own family, but
software development jobs _are_ different.

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hedgehog
Bottom line is how you can help them and they can help you. Figure out what
projects you can work on that will be meaningful to the company. Then figure
out what you think a fair salary is. As an aside, I think it is usually better
to be a little underpaid than overpaid because it gives you better leverage
and flexibility in choosing your work. Anyway, if you can come to agreement go
for it. Control your expenses (don't buy a new car!) and in a year if it's not
working out you can move on graciously with cash in the bank.

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djb_hackernews
So you worked at a growing company for 6 years and never asked for or was
given greater responsibility or significant pay raises? It sounds to me like
the core of the problem here is you don't know how to stand up for yourself.

Intern or not, you blew a great opportunity.

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lsc
eh, ask for the higher salary, and take it, unless you have a better offer. If
the job ends up sucking, well, just look for a new one. Finding a job is
vastly easier when you have a job.

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timcederman
26 and with a PhD, I asked for a competitive salary at a startup and got it.
You should do the same.

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shareme
I would at least diplomatically present your concerns about the offer as it
may be they see it as 'stepping stone' to the actual position they see you at
in the future within the company and that you want, namely development.

