
Airbnb admits rogue sales team used Craigslist for stealthy property drive  - thomasgerbe
http://www.tnooz.com/2011/06/01/news/airbnb-admits-rogue-sales-team-used-craigslist-for-stealthy-property-drive/
======
btilly
There is one part of this explanation that seems weird to me.

If you read through [http://davegooden.com/2011/05/how-airbnb-became-a-
billion-do...](http://davegooden.com/2011/05/how-airbnb-became-a-billion-
dollar-company/) and look at the links delivered, they don't have any sort of
affiliate IDs. Which means that Airbnb had no way to tie this traffic to that
advertising campaign, and had no tracking.

It is possible that they legitimately were willing to pay a third party
contractor something based on all of their traffic, no questions asked (I've
seen that kind of deal with SEO companies before), but it seems odd.

~~~
thewordpainter
more & more, i get the sense that a great % of the b2c startups that achieve
critical mass do something 'sneaky' along the way to get over that initial
hump.

in facebook's case, the untold story is they basically blasted the university
email databases -- how else could you scale a social network when everyone's
attention was already so diverted? (i'll give them credit though because
plenty of companies have prob tried similar tactics (e.g. uloop comes to
mind), but haven't turned it into much)

another semi-related one that stands out is how i've heard the reddit founders
originated the conversation from a number of fictitious accounts and once the
conversation picked up around them, they just let it take off on a life of
it's own.

~~~
Zakuzaa
Reddit's way of solving the chicken-n-egg problem looks relatively much OK to
me. It's tolerable even if it's deceiving. It's an acceptable way of
kickstarting a community, IMO.

------
guelo
The way the link between companies and spammers usually works is that the
spammer is contracted at arms length as an 'affiliate' and is paid per lead.
The company will try to be willfully ignorant of the tactics being used so
they can claim that they just have an affiliate program and they don't know
how the traffic is generated.

Edit: To clarify, I'm not saying that this is what Airbnb did. In fact the
original post said the emails had clean urls without referral IDs. To me that
suggests a sloppy internal campaign with no metrics.

~~~
noodle
yeah, any company caught doing something like this would likely respond pretty
much just like this, intentional or not.

rogue contractors or unauthorized employees, they were acting without the
knowledge/consent of higher ups, they've since been fired or contracts
terminated, etc..

------
Lucadg
This is from 9 months ago

"OK, I've finally had it with this company. I post some properties on
craigslist from time to time, and I get tons of spam and scammers, but one
that really sticks in my craw is airbnb.com

I have emailed them more than a few times asking them to cut it out, and that
soliciting clients who post properties on craigslist is not the best way to do
things.

Yet, here we go with the latest round of email solicitations from airbnb.com.
I really hope someone from the company reads this. I know they are well funded
by Y-combinator venture capital, so why outsource this type of work and spam?"
<http://www.vacationrentalscommunity.com/forums/t/2767.aspx>

Interesting. Anybody know when this spamming actually stopped?

------
Joakal
Is there an official response yet from PG regarding contracted use of Black
Hat tactics as a starting YC company? I understand breaking the rules but
black hat?

It seems like I could contract a spammer and discontinue the contractor
services when getting a HN frontpage. The contractor would get a sizable exit
sum. All because AirBnB is allowed to 'get away with it' after at least a year
of doing it [0].

[0] <http://techcrunch.com/2010/06/21/airbnb-brian-chesky/>

~~~
coryl
It would be my opinion that PG probably doesn't care.

 _If this wasn't already clear, we're not looking for the sort of obedient,
middle-of-the-road people that big companies tend to hire. We're looking for
people who like to beat the system._

<http://ycombinator.com/howtoapply.html>

~~~
Joakal
I understand that, going against unjust rules, regulations and industry
monopolies because otherwise economically; people pay more (taxi monopoly) or
inconvenienced (no driverless cars allowed).

But these black hat email marketing tactics are akin to harassing people
automatically without discrimination. Posted two properties? At least two
emails from two 'women' advertising AirBnB. It's effectively destroying
Craigslist if every company including my potential own escape backlash for
spamming users.

Some people like me look to PG as a chaotic good role model for entrepreneurs.

~~~
Zakuzaa
I think most people are looking for PG's general opinion over the issue. He
has had written about certain "naughtiness" in his essay(s?). To what extent
does he think it's _OKAY_?

~~~
Hisoka
We shouldn't be looking up to PG as some sort of moral authority.

------
patrickgzill
I don't understand the excuse-making ... if it is OK for 1 company to spam
you, then surely it is OK for 1000 companies to spam you... Craigslist should
be considering legal action at this point.

------
Zakuzaa
They can't blame a sales team for this. It was their own responsibility to
monitor sales team's activity.

~~~
smackfu
Especially love how it is a contracted sales team.

------
lwhi
It depressed me when I hear about this kind of story, because it makes me
realise tech and startups often aren't focused on creating a positive brave
new world of possibility. Instead, it seems a lot of companies are simply
emulating the arrogant stance of 80s big business.

------
nhangen
Better off saying nothing that trying to pretend that some rogue salespeople
wanted to make money so badly that they spammed CL.

------
mrchess
I don't know why so many of you are looking for an official response from pg.
Just because he invested in the company doesn't mean he can or will make
statements on their behalf.

Honestly pg just probably invested, said good luck, and just went his own way
checking up occasionally to chat. The guy has like 500 other things on his
plate why would he micromanage airbnb?

It's their business, not pg's, so let them run it how they want to.

~~~
qq66
I'm not sure pg will comment here, but it's not like this is insignificant -
AirBnB is over 20% of YC's portfolio.

------
karzeem
At the risk of revealing some intrinsic immorality or something, I don't
really see what's wrong with this. It would be wrong of the sales team to
claim to have used Airbnb for stays that never happened, or to invent false
testimonials, but that's not the charge.

The allegation is that they emailed property owners and said, effectively,
"Airbnb is great, you should use it" without saying how or why they came to
hold that opinion. It's untruthful in the sense of not including the whole
truth, but I'd put it decisively under naughty, not blackhat.

~~~
Joakal
They 'illegally' spammed users for at least a year.

> It never fails that I get at least 20 marketing emails a day from airbnb
> when I post a property on craigslist. I hope they do more of these PR stunts
> than filling up my inbox with unsolicited messages. [0]

"I'm not a lawyer but I am an anti-spam expert.

They most certainly are illegal. They are unsolicited advertising (which is
fine under CAN-SPAM, sadly), and contain none of the requirements of CAN-SPAM
- a legitimate business address, and a clear unsubscribe link.

Just because they come from gmail accounts does not exempt AirBnB from the
law." [1]

[0] <http://techcrunch.com/2010/06/21/airbnb-brian-chesky/>

[1] <http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2605565>

~~~
karzeem
I don't know enough to have an opinion about whether it's illegal, but even
assuming it is, that doesn't mean it's immoral.

~~~
thomasgerbe
Immoral: not conforming to the patterns of conduct usually accepted or
established as consistent with principles of personal and social ethics.

Typically, what is ethical is respecting the user wishes. If I say, "Don't
contact me for commercial interest" (the checkbox when you post something on
Craigslist) and you do so, I would say that doesn't conform to business
ethics.

~~~
j_baker
I'm not saying this was a good thing for AirBNB to do, but is violating the
sanctity of the craigslist commercial checkbox the worst AirBNB has done?
Sure, that's not a respectable way to do business, but we're not exactly
talking about Enron or Bernie Madoff here.

------
ChuckFrank
Can someone explain the 'on' in this statement?

>> Airbnb does not publish the number of properties featured on the service
but has confirmed today that it currently has around 110,000 listed -- around
half of those __on __rival rental service HomeAway. >>

Does that mean that half their rentals are not exclusive, and are listed on
both,

or

Does that mean that they list half of their on HomeAway?

~~~
Zakuzaa
Number of listings on AirBnb == (1/2)*Number of listing on HomeAway

~~~
ChuckFrank
Thanks, that makes the current 1B valuation proposition even more unsettling.
Does this suggest that HomeAway has a 2 B dollar valuation?

~~~
uptown
Apparently, yes:

"HomeAway Prices IPO Between $24 And $27 Per Share, Now Valued At $2 Billion"
[http://techcrunch.com/2011/06/16/homeaway-prices-ipo-
between...](http://techcrunch.com/2011/06/16/homeaway-prices-ipo-
between-24-and-27-per-share-now-valued-at-2-billion/)

------
arthurgibson
I'm pretty sure everyday rental companies (with real agents) in the Boston
Area post fake apt listings on Craigslist to attract customers. Also I know
for a fact that they harvest listings from Craigslist and rental sections of
newspapers to call and email owners hounding them to list and show their apts.
Whats the difference?

~~~
Zakuzaa
Not sure about difference, they do have a similarity though - both are illegal
& unethical.

~~~
arthurgibson
It sounds like if the industry isn't enforcing itself and operating out in the
open, no one really cares. Also once these companies get their hands on you
they make you sign contracts so that you can only exclusively list through
them. Its a screwed up industry full of commission based workers.

~~~
bxr
>It sounds like if the industry isn't enforcing itself and operating out in
the open, no one really cares.

Thats some very strange reasoning you're operating on there. The fact the
industry isn't enforcing itself only suggests that people don't care enough
about this to reach the tipping point at which the upset people involved start
to negatively affect the business of the perpetrators to the extent that not
engaging in the undesirable tactics would no longer be profitable. Most people
do care, and do hate it, but renters have to deal with that world for very
short and limited periods of time over the course of a year and can't afford
to invest the kind of effort needed to affect change in an industry completely
unrelated to them.

Its like you're saying no one cares about all the generic spam they get just
because the 0.001% conversion rate spammers have make it a sustainable
business model.

------
philgo20
By the amount of emails sent and the similarity of emails, one could guess
that they were indeed automated.

Honestly I don't really have a big problem with the tactic as both parties
were winning, but I am not buying the 'rogue' sales team explanation.

Great product and business anyway.

~~~
sorbus
Similarity and number are both explained by copy-pasting a pre-written
message, which is not considered automation.

~~~
bxr
Just like my direct mail campaign is not automated because when the letters
come out of the printer/stuffer machine I still have to lick the envelopes.

------
lurker19
Headlines that quote false statement should use quotation marks for clarity.

It is impossible to "admit" something that in one's self interest and is not a
proven fact. A defendant in court can _admit_ guilt, but can only _claim_
innocence.

------
jasonwocky
If this goes mainstream, I can imagine the hotel lobby trying to beat AirBnB
over the head with this issue. Perhaps even doing their best to instigate
legal action by the government for potential violations of the CAN-SPAM Act.

------
jarin
Doesn't "black hat" usually imply some kind of hackery or gaming of a system?

Assuming it was people sending the emails and not automated, I would probably
classify this as deceptive cold calling. It's not something you'd want your
own people doing, but you might just look the other way if some PR company is
doing it on your behalf.

Morally, it's probably the equivalent of making a fake viral video.

------
ChuckFrank
Here's my advice. --

Never have sales people at an arms length. Instead keep them close, carefully
monitor their work and fire the rogue ones.

------
jhowell
Would it different if this were HN instead of CL?

------
rkon
'Rogue' sales team or not, it looks like they could be facing some hefty fines
under the CAN-SPAM Act: " _Each separate email in violation of the law is
subject to penalties of up to $16,000 ... both the company whose product is
promoted in the message and the company that originated the message may be
legally responsible._ "

[http://business.ftc.gov/documents/bus61-can-spam-act-
complia...](http://business.ftc.gov/documents/bus61-can-spam-act-compliance-
guide-business)

Sites like Craigslist would probably be unusable if everyone spammed users the
way Airbnb did, so maybe the penalties are warranted.

------
chailatte
I applaud PG for showing incredible constraint on this issue, on this board.
It's like a father standing firm alongside his guilty son, while tomatoes are
being thrown on them, while the cowardly son keeps mumbling lies 'It wasn't
me, my friends did it. I just watched', while the father just stands there and
takes it.

~~~
cheez
Hey, I'd be fine too if someone was badmouthing my company which just took
$100 million in investment :-)

Comes with the territory, I assume.

~~~
chailatte
Well, these threads could've suffered mysterious deaths by now, but instead
the other one has like 580 points :)

~~~
jimmyjim
False premise. It's not as if by killing the thread the issue would have been
capped altogether, no, it would have instead exploded and done exponentially
more damage with accusations of censorship mixed in.

