
Ask HN: A simple, low-tech way to reduce the package theft problem from homes? - DrScump
... or am I missing something?<p>Perhaps this problem is <i>not</i> common in your area, but here and in many urban&#x2F;suburban settings in California, there is a huge problem with delivered packages being stolen from doorways and porches.<p>In many cases, thieve(s) simply follow delivery trucks (UPS, FedEx, USPS) and pluck packages shortly after delivery.  But it seems to me that there is a simple mechanism that would limit the other, more-common cases of trolling neighborhoods for left packages.<p>What if <i>everybody</i> left a <i>dummy</i> package outside their door?  For example, a simple box with a bogus label and weighty contents would do the trick; ideally, a box with retail branding (such as Amazon or others with recognizable logo).  (I am <i>not</i> suggesting anything toxic or dangerous, just worthless stuff that provides an appropriate look and feel.)<p>Am I missing something?  If such a simple countermeasure was widely practiced, the sheer risk ratio could at least provide a low-cost deterrent.<p>Obviously, the better solution would be bait packages with tracking devices that would alert law enforcement when moved and serve as probable cause for searches... but in my area, at least, property crime generally gets no attention from law enforcement.
======
saulr
Always found this problem quite interesting. In the UK, parcels are rarely if
ever left on the porch. If you aren't in there's a few options: a) they
deliver it to a neighbour and post a card through your door saying "it's been
left at number X"; b) they leave it in a safe space (typically throw it over
your garden fence); or c) return it to the delivery office for you to specify
when to redeliver or pick it up yourself.

Can anyone shed any light as to why (a) doesn't seem to be used in the US?

~~~
cperciva
Most people don't know who their neighbours are, never mind trusting them with
their packages.

~~~
pbhjpbhj
We take parcels in for people we don't know (UK). Why do you need to know
them?

Yes parcels sometimes go missing (suspected stolen) but delivery drivers have
a pretty good idea where not to leave packages if they care.

~~~
philrykoff
Same here in germany. If the neighbor accepts the package, the parcel service
notes his/her name on the receipt, so the responsibility has been handed to
the neighbor.

If the neighbor "looses" the package, the loss can be enforced against him.

One alternative is to allow the parcel service to put the parcel in a safe
space (e.g. throw it over the fence ;). Only if you allow the parcel service
to do that, they will do it, because only then they are not responsibly for
what happens to the package once they've put it in the "safe space".

The best invention in parcel servicing over the last few years are so called
Packstationen (package stations), big cupboards with large lockable
compartments. The parcel service places the packages there, sends you a text
with a mobile TAN, you get the package from there whenever you have time
(within the next 2 weeks or so, then it's being sent back). They are placed
all over larger towns.

------
deanclatworthy
The solution is to not leave them outside a home. In the two European
countries I have lived, if you are not home they take the package back to your
local post office to pick up on your own time. Problem solved.

~~~
GameTheory8
This isn't really a solution when you start multiplying the # of carriers
(USPS/UPS/FedEx/Ontrac/etc) that deliver in the US, to the number of packages
that heavy e-commerce users receive per month. It's not unusual for people
with Amazon Prime accounts to have 10+ packages delivered in a month. If they
would have to go to different locations to pick up all these packages, then it
quickly negates much of the convenience/experience of shopping online.

~~~
purplelobster
Maybe it would be in all these companies interest to jointly set up
distribution centers? In Sweden the postal service shut down most offices in
the 90s, but instead set up shop in grocery stores everywhere. When you get a
package you simply go to the closest store and pick it up. IMO this works much
better than the to-the-door delivery in the US (unless you have a door man
24/7). Of course UPS/Fedex don't use these channels, but maybe they should.
Getting a package from them means a lot of pain if you don't stay home from
work to receive the package. If I miss the delivery I have to travel for like
an hour to the pick it up, which is quite difficult since I don't have a car.
It's come to the point where I won't order anything delivered by them.

------
reustle
This makes me think about low tech solutions to the problem. What about a
simple box (maybe 1 meter cube) that is unlocked until it is closed. Once
closed, it must be opened with a key. A simple plate on the top can explain to
the delivery man to place close the door when a package is placed inside, not
very complicated. It doesn't scale to >1 package a day, but it is something.

~~~
monk_e_boy
Just an open padlock and a note to the delivery person to snap it shut when
the parcel is in the box.

~~~
jackweirdy
But then you could tell from looking at the box whether there was anything in
there (if it's locked, it's got something). Probably enough to deter an
opportunist, but a determined thief might bring bolt cutters (or just take the
box)

~~~
x1798DE
If people are following around UPS trucks, they already know if something is
in there, right? The bigger problem with the plan to me is what happens if you
get two packages on the same day?

------
thisone
An easier option is to have your items delivered to a local pickup location

Amazon offers it
[https://www.amazon.com/b/ref=amb_link_366591722_2?_encoding=...](https://www.amazon.com/b/ref=amb_link_366591722_2?_encoding=UTF8&node=6442600011)
as well as having other pickup options in the UK (though I see in the US,
there are not as many parcel dropoff services! is this an area for growth?)

Another UK example is Argos which has some partnership with eBay where you can
have some purchases delivered to a local branch.

Most bricks and mortar stores will ship for free to your local store for
pickup.

~~~
tedmiston
Amazon is testing something similar in the U.S. called Campus Pick-up Point
[1]. It's a bit controversial because of competing with on-campus bookstores.

1: [http://fortune.com/2015/10/07/amazon-pick-up-college-
campuse...](http://fortune.com/2015/10/07/amazon-pick-up-college-campuses/)

------
greenyoda
Your solution itself is very simple, but getting everyone in a neighborhood to
agree to put out fake packages is very difficult.

Also, a cardboard box that's left outside as a decoy for several days would
soon deteriorate, and would need to be replaced in order to look realistic (a
soggy old box on a dry day wouldn't be convincing). If someone doesn't order
merchandise by mail, they would (1) have little incentive to participate in
this activity and (2) have no ready source of cardboard boxes to do it with
even if they wanted to.

------
ajuc
Why would you leave package on the porch?

In Poland postman has to contact someone in the home, and if nobody's there he
leaves a note in the mail box "come to the post office and get your package -
we will keep it for 2 weeks and then return it to the sender".

And right now there's "packageomats" operated by some other companies - you
can ask for your package to be delivered there and you need a passsword to
take it out
[https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fc/Galeria_...](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fc/Galeria_Przymorze_w_Gda%C5%84sku_\(paczkomat_InPost\).JPG)

That's for people that don't have time when post offices are open, and aren't
home when postman comes.

------
nkurz
I guess I'm a traditionalist, but since no one has suggested it yet, I'll
suggest an alternative: rally to enforce the law. I'd assert that societies
that accept theft as the norm, blaming the victim for failing to properly
secure their goods, are on a downward slope from which they will never escape.

Instead of accepting that "property crime gets no attention", increase the
risk to those would would steal packages by making it more likely that those
who do so are caught and punished. Put a tracking device in a bait package,
record the theft with a video camera, and report the final location to the
police.

If the police fail to react to such a credible tip (especially if you can do
this multiple times), turn the video and police report over to some local
reporters. I think (hope?) that the reporters would have a field day, and make
enough noise that those particular thieves will not be in business much
longer.

------
grahamburger
I don't see how this helps if the thief is following the delivery truck.
Wouldn't they just take the decoy along with the real package?

------
joshvm
As other commenters from the UK have said, here you can't just leave a package
outside someone's doorstep without a signature here. If the delivery company
does this and you have no parcel, you just get on the phone to Amazon and tell
them to send a replacement.

If theft is so common in the area and you can't simply reorder the product
(for free) then surely buying some kind of secure lockbox is a better
solution? Most courier companies will let you provide additional details like
an entry code.

~~~
justincormack
You can, and it does happen. But yes, you would get a replacement if its not
there.

------
137maxwell
[http://www.paket.de/paketkasten](http://www.paket.de/paketkasten) is the
private home solution,
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Packstation](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Packstation)
is public

------
GameTheory8
From my consumer perspective (mostly Amazon Prime packages):

I've probably had 1 or 2 random lost/stolen packages over the last 6-7 years,
from a handful of locations. There's more that randomly go missing for a day
or so but those are usually carrier issues, and not lost, but delayed.

From my business perspective:

We're a semi-large FBA seller on Amazon and have had 100,000ish orders over
the last 2 years. I've received many messages before where customers claim to
have packages go missing, but a quick reply notifying the customer that we'll
get x carrier to investigate usually gets a quick reply that they found the
package.

To us, this is more of a numbers game where we allocate 0.x% of revenue to
lost/stolen/damaged packages and then just try to minimize the losses on a
case by case basis. Our main goal is to have happy customers that receive what
they ordered, so if there's any delivery hiccups, we always take the liability
and quickly replace or refund.

Bonus Amazon tip:

Delivery confirmation w/tracking information isn't proof of delivery for
packages, and they'll refund/replace orders even if the tracking details say
"Delivered". This makes sense when a package gets delivered and someone steals
it before the customer takes possession of it.

As a seller on Amazon, in the event of a problem/claim, Amazon requires
signature confirmation to guarantee that the package was actually received.
Signature confirmation is expensive so it then only makes sense for packages
valued at $300+. (Products in Electronics might be different w/higher loss
rates)

IMO, damaged packages are a bigger issue, but then that becomes mostly a
packaging, then carrier issue.

What's the solution? No clue, but adding friction points such as giving a
package to a neighbor, or having to go somewhere else to retrieve your package
just slowly adds to a negative customer experience over time and should be
avoided whenever possible.

------
airmail378
a neighborhood in South Jordan, Utah is doing this exact thing.

[http://abcnews.go.com/Weird/wireStory/utah-community-
leaves-...](http://abcnews.go.com/Weird/wireStory/utah-community-leaves-fake-
packages-doorstep-thieves-35752709)

------
tedmiston
My apartment complex has this problem: there is no package office but there is
an outer gate.

USPS has a key to get inside the gate, but private couriers do not, so they
can only leave missed delivery notes outside.

When USPS does deliver a package, they set it on the ground right inside the
gate which is not all that secure either given the gate is occasionally left
open by construction workers or maintenance people. The apartment allows us to
send packages to their office instead, but it's impractical because their
hours mirror work hours.

The best alternative I've come up with is to just ship packages to work and
accept that I'll mostly miss out on Saturday deliveries.

------
lowglow
Just have them delivered to your office, or have them hold the packages at the
post office?

~~~
clarry
Everyone has an office? Nope.

Couriers here refuse to leave a parcel at the post office. Couriers are such a
pain..

Even if it works for me, the post office isn't a good choice for everybody. It
might be a long distance away. Enjoy walking 10 kilometers (or more) while
carrying a big, heavy package for half the trip?

------
bitcuration
The solution is to leave it to a convenience store nearby for a fee, the
delivery company UPS or else should cut a deal with all the 7/11s nearby for
temporary parcel holding.

Amazon locker is a good starting point, but moe Uber style convenience store
joint venture would be a practical solution. There, a startup idea for anyone
who care to try.

Last week, a $100 worth package was picked by a guy on cheap bike from my
front door 20 minutes after the delivery. Though entirely captured on camera,
there is nothing the police could do about it. Amazon might just refund the
loss, what if this is eBay or newegg, surely troubling.

~~~
Mandatum
This exact thing is very popular in Europe, and in New Zealand they're rolling
out third-party pick-up locations. Dairies (convenience stores), supermakets
and shopping centres (malls) are signing up to get paid on a per-pickup basis.

You can buy something online and ask for it to be delivered to your local
dairy where it'll be held for up to 10 days. You're required to show ID when
picking it up, but it's so much more convenient than asking for evening or
Saturday delivery when you're not sure when the courier will be around to
deliver the item (although we're not getting very good estimates from
analysing past delivery history for streets, 80% of the time accurate within
30 mins).

------
theaccordance
I live in Chicago and deal with package theft at least once a year; this
thought of dummy packages is not realistic and I'd never participate.

A more realistic solution: Package drop boxes. They can be either key or one-
way door to help deter theft, and provide an added benefit of protecting a
package against the elements.

Obviously, all packages weren't sized equal, but if you're having things
delivered regularly, you can determine the type of cubic storage you'd need
for a drop box to cover the majority of your deliveries.

~~~
theaccordance
And if package drop boxes aren't viable then fine, let's just move onto
Robotic Butlers who can answer the door and accept packages

------
lmartel
Here's what you're missing: I do a lot of online shopping, but packages
getting stolen have cost me, personally, $0. Your proposal would cost me > $0.
Why should I participate?

~~~
gusmd
I understand that this might be how you feel since the seller probably has
refunded missing packages. Now please consider that the added cost to the
seller has already been factored in on all your purchases. Therefore, if there
were no stolen packages, your purchases would have been cheaper. Does that
change how you feel about it?

~~~
calciphus
Loss from package theft from doorsteps is still less than retail shrinkage.
It's difficult to get exact numbers, but even in densely populated areas it's
unlikely to reach the retail shrinkage of 1.44%.

If package theft decreased from, say...1% to 0.1%, that would not
substantially impact price on the micro scale.

~~~
gusmd
That's pretty much a 0.9% reduction on overall costs to the seller. Most
credit cards offer 1% cashback and people love it, so I will dare to say that
a 1% price reduction is very interesting.

------
apryldelancey
Have you seen this guy's solution?

[http://www.insideedition.com/headlines/13580-homeowner-
gets-...](http://www.insideedition.com/headlines/13580-homeowner-gets-revenge-
on-package-thieves-with-a-box-full-of-dog-poop)

Pretty humorous but could lead to retaliation.

------
otterley
UPS, at least, will deliver to my local bodega, which keeps commuter-friendly
hours (open till 10pm most days). It's called "MyChoice." It's free, but you
have to sign up for it. I typically use it for high-value deliveries; it's
worked well so far.

~~~
brndn
What is a bodega?

~~~
Harkins
A small convenience/grocery store in a dense urban area.

------
biased_coin
In India, Flipkart ( an e-commerce company) gives you an option to leave the
package with a nearby shop (which would have signed up as a partner). Maybe
you could try working out something with a shop-owner nearby (and one day
scale it as a solution :) )

------
pbreit
You're missing a) that it requires a lot of coordination, b) most people don't
want to leave junk on their porch and c) it's not so big of a problem that it
requires so much involvement from tons of people who don't even care.

------
MichaelBurge
Could you buy a mailbox for them to drop packages into? And then you could
bolt it onto something firm.

Doesn't stop people from watching for deliveries, cutting the mailbox open,
and stealing packages inside; but if that happened to me I'd consider moving.

------
calciphus
If thieves are just following delivery trucks, they'd see the difference
between the decoy and the real package immediately. This doesn't gain you
anything but leaves a bunch of garbage on everyone's door.

------
mandor
In France (and I suspect in many European countries), most modern
buildings/renovated buildings have large mailbox in which many packages fit
(e.g. books). The mailman has a 'universal key' and drop the packages there.

------
craigds
Is this actually a real problem or just an imagined one? Anyway don't couriers
normally require recipient signature? If a courier left a package on my
doorstep in NZ I'd probably complain.

~~~
M4v3R
I think it's mainly a US thing. Here in Poland it's also unheard of that
courier would leave the package unattended on the doorstep, because
recipient's signature is required.

------
JeMc
Expensive? Yes! Effective? Possibly.
[http://www.thelandport.com](http://www.thelandport.com)

------
DanBC
> Obviously, the better solution would be bait packages with tracking devices
> that would alert law enforcement when moved and serve as probable cause for
> searches...

This is a start up idea. You design and sell a gadget that is put inside a
parcel. You sell it to law enforcement, or to delivery companies.

------
OmarIsmail
Low tech but not low cost - move.

~~~
dkraft
to a condo with concierge

