
Richard Feynman on getting laid: "You Just Ask Them?" - matth
http://www.gorgorat.com/#35
======
mwexler
Out of 101 comments, no one mentions that this site is hosting an illegal copy
of an artist's work? I mean, sure, the whole book is great... but shouldn't we
be having a bit of respect for someone's intellectual property and not linking
to it?

If Gorgorat.com has permission to print the book, or it's now in public
domain, then I'm the first to say link to that pup... but I didn't see
anything on the site to say this.

I'm a bit surprised that folks who make their living creating intellectual
property are so blase about this. There were more comments about the
inappropriate affiliate link than the fact that the book is still in press and
under copyright.

Let's not devolve into "information wants to be free" and "the world is open
source", but stick to the fact that the book is not free and open source in
the US legal system at this point, AFAIK. Would we be linking to a hosted full
copy of PG's excellent book Hackers etc.
(<http://www.paulgraham.com/hackpaint.html>) to highlight one of his points?
Probably not.

~~~
grinich
Hackers and Painters is actually available on Scribd in its entirety.

[http://www.scribd.com/doc/47180/Paul-Graham-Hackers-And-
Pain...](http://www.scribd.com/doc/47180/Paul-Graham-Hackers-And-Painters)

~~~
mwexler
Whoops. That was a bad example, wasn't it? Ah well, the rest of the comment
(hopefully) is still valid.

------
char
The entire book (Surely You're Joking, Mr. Feynman) is amazing and hilarious.
I highly recommend it for the HN crowd.

~~~
ErrantX
It's a wonderful anecdote, but where to begin..

I was pretty hopeless at the whole dating game till I read The Game and
started to try it out; it was a brilliant read. But the bare truth of it is
that it doesn't actually work all that well. Oh yeh sure you can be a PUA and
grab some fairly shallow girls - but it's a bit boring to be honest (and your
success rate is fairly low - you "win" by asking lots of women). The only
thing The Game gives you is confidence; which is 90% of the trick.

Indeed the best advice in this article is twofold.

\- Confidence (subtly suggested) is a big factor. She's talking to you - if
your not confident she'll only stay out of sympathy

\- Dont pay for everything/anything; the _best_ advice you will ever learn. I
had plenty of crap dates spending loads of money in the hope of getting laid
and it invariably went nowhere (a kiss on the cheek usually, bah). Till one
date the girl randomly said "I'm not going to sleep with you tonight, can we
just have a nice time" - so with no real investment in the evening we had an
awesome fun just spending time together.

Now when I go on a date the first thing I'll say is "so do you want to get the
first round or the second?". It's subtle but works brilliantly; usually we
share the rounds and have a great time (and maybe sleep together, but I find
that a less important conclusion now)

Against all the odds Im a pretty good dater. So when my friends ask for advice
or help I usually say:

\- go on a date just to have a good time with a girl, not just to sleep with
her

\- share the costs

\- dont be gentlemanly at the end of the night. She's a person too and if
she's not interested in getting laid she'll just say no

\- be confident. She's on a date with you already!!

:)

~~~
jhollandsworth
When reading any of the PUA stuff, you have to realize that the common threads
are simply communicating effectively, having confidence, breaking out of your
shell, and simply displaying YOUR personality in a fashion that makes you
attractive.

I think the issue with a lot of people blindly following the advice and
material is that they understand the science but don't understand the
delivery. The things you learn here should help you out in ALL facets of life
that involve social interaction. Mold them to fit your needs and you'll be
set. Sounds like its worked for you!

~~~
ErrantX
Absolutely. Problem is everyone handing out PUA avoids telling you that
because it is easier to market a "Method"(tm). Took me a few months and I know
people who still dont "get it" years later.

------
araneae
This is one of my favorite quotes from him:

"The female mind is capable of understanding analytic geometry... The
difficulty may just be that we have never yet discovered a way to communicate
with the female mind. If it is done in the right way, you may be able to get
something out of it." – Richard Feynman

<http://www.phy.ilstu.edu/pte/310content/nature/feynman.html>

~~~
foldr
Unfortunately, judging from the context, that wasn't even a joke.

~~~
jerf
Are you upset because a man said it? "Math is too male and we need to come up
with more female ways of teaching it" is a pretty standard feminist idea. In
fact, replace "math" with a wide variety of things.

Recall he's not working under modern PC strictures, not that he necessarily
would have subjected himself to them anyhow. He gets to say it directly, not
cloak it in endless verbiage.

That said, I actually disagree. Math is what it is and everybody regardless of
gender must bend their brain to the subject and not the other way around. I
think its fundamental inhumanity is dominant. But you seem to me to be
casually implying that his statement is un-PC, and I think it's actually
rather shockingly PC, just also very blunt.

~~~
foldr
No, I'm "upset" because the rest of the article makes it clear that Feynman
really did think that women were inherently useless as math -- and even
"rational thought" in general:

>Those people who have for years been insisting (in the face of all obvious
evidence to the contrary) that the male and female are equally capable of
rational thought may have something.

This is a bit rich for my tastes (but it will no doubt go down very well on
this forum). I just don't see why it would be someone's favorite quote, unless
they liked making fun of women's intellectual abilities.

~~~
Simucal
I'm genuinely curious if anyone has studied the differences in the sexes when
it comes to math.

Why is it no woman has won the fields medal? Why do many talented women stop
their academic career at the bachelor and masters level when it comes to
mathematics?

I think you would of been able to say that sexism in academia was a reason in
the past, but I just don't think that really flies anymore.

Is it possible the genuinely is a difference between mathematical ability
between men and women or do people this this is purely cultural?

~~~
barry-cotter
edit:

<http://www.pnas.org/content/106/22/8801.full>

Two recent studies directly address the question of whether greater male
variability in mathematics is a ubiquitous phenomenon. Machin and Pekkarinen
(19) reported that the M:F VR in mathematics was significantly >1.00 at the P
< 0.05 level among 15-year-old students in 34 of 40 countries participating in
the 2003 PISA and among 13-year-old students in 33 of 50 countries
participating in the 2003 Trends in International Mathematics and Science
Study (TIMSS). However, these data also indicated that the math VR was
significantly less than or insignificantly different from 1.00 for some of the
countries that participated in these assessments (e.g., Table 2), a finding
inconsistent with the Greater Male Variability Hypothesis.

...

Similarly, Penner's cross-nation analysis of the 1995 TIMSS data (20) showed
that the proportion of girls scoring above the 95th percentile positively and
significantly correlated with several measures of female equality and status,
including equity in educational opportunities and representation in the labor
force and political offices.

Best I could find in 5 minutes

Consequences in High School and College of Sex Differences in Mathematical
Reasoning Ability: A Longitudinal Perspective Camilla Persson Benbow and
Julian C. Stanley The Johns Hopkins University

Between 1972 and 1974 the Study of Mathematically Precocious Youth (SMPY)
identified over 2,000 7th and 8th graders who scored as well as a national
sample of 11th and 12th grade females on the College Board’s Scholastic
Aptitude Test (SAT) Mathematics or Verbal tests. A substantial sex difference
in mathematical reasoning ability was found (Benbow & Stanley, 1980b, 1981).
The consequences and development of this sex difference over the following 5
years were investigated longitudinally. Over 91 percent (1,996 out of 2,188
SMPY students) participated. This study established that the sex difference
persisted over several years and was related to subsequent sex differences in
mathematics achievement. The sex difference in mathematics did not reflect
differential mathematics course taking. The abilities of males developed more
rapidly than those of females. Sex differences favoring males were found in
participation in mathematics, performance on the SAT-M, and taking of and
performance on mathematics achievement and Advanced Placement Program
examinations. SMPY females received better grades in their mathematics courses
than SMPY males did. Few significant sex differences were found in attitudes
toward mathematics.

Here's a visualisation (I think) of the male/female ratios of various IQs
you'd expect given the different variances
[http://zachaysan.tumblr.com/post/452277906/intelligence-
quot...](http://zachaysan.tumblr.com/post/452277906/intelligence-quotient-
visualized)

~~~
frossie
Well, I can do better than that in 5 minutes but that's because I have paid a
lot of attention to this question.

I think the most conclusive evidence that M/F math gaps are cultural in origin
lies in international studies, where the gap ranges from negligible in
progressive countries (eg. Scandinavia) to massive in less equal societies (eg
Turkey).

<http://www.apa.org/pubs/journals/releases/bul-136-1-103.pdf>

Generally the anglo-saxon socities (UK, USA, Australia) are "middling" in
this.

Of course this only covers "normal" math abilities (ie the ability to
understand school/college math). "Genius" level ability is a lot harder to
quantify, partly because it is such small number statistics and there are many
confounding social variables to do with access to and selection pressures of
post-graduate education.

~~~
yummyfajitas
Just curious, why do you believe Scandinavia is more equal than the US, UK or
Australia?

~~~
frossie
_Just curious, why do you believe Scandinavia is more equal than the US, UK or
Australia?_

Gender equality metrics, eg. see the World Economic Forum report, generated
from "hard" indicators:

<http://www.weforum.org/pdf/gendergap/rankings2008.pdf>

where the top 3 countries are Scandinavian (4 if you include Iceland). On the
same list, the UK is 13th, Australia is 21st, and the USA is 27th.

This list is consistent with my own impressions. You will also note the
reasonably high correlation with the math gap list I referenced upthread.

------
_debug_
From: <http://www.kurzweilai.net/articles/art0504.html?m=3>

"The charming side of Richard helped people forgive him for his uncharming
characteristics. For example, in many ways Richard was a sexist. Whenever it
came time for his daily bowl of soup he would look around for the nearest
"girl" and ask if she would fetch it to him. It did not matter if she was the
cook, an engineer, or the president of the company. I once asked a female
engineer who had just been a victim of this if it bothered her. "Yes, it
really annoys me," she said."

~~~
blackguardx
You cut off the quote. Why?

Here is the rest:

"On the other hand, he is the only one who ever explained quantum mechanics to
me as if I could understand it." That was the essence of Richard's charm.

~~~
_debug_
Because I do not want his charm to detract from the rest of it. (charisma >
sexism) == wrong. Also, in my opinion, it is actually a bit sad that the lady
says, "oh well, it's ok to be treated that way because he's a good teacher".
This is exactly the kind of compromise that victims make too often.

Bill Clinton was not even being sexist and he got tasered big time. I'm not
sure why Feynman should get a pass.

~~~
xenophanes
The point is that he was somewhat sexist in some fairly normal ways, but _at
the same time_ he was _extremely unsexist_ in ways that _no one else was_.

Other people may have been more polite than Feynman in casual situations, but
when it came to serious discussion he treated women (and students) as equals
better than other people.

~~~
restruct
No, the point is that sexism is still sexism, even when sexism was (more)
socially acceptable.

------
Mz
I think it works because it takes money out of the equation.

There's a line in a song: "I've got dozens of friends and the fun never ends,
that is as long as I'm buying". If the man is spending money to get her
attention, how can he not feel like "she wouldn't be here if I didn't have
money" and how can she not feel on some level like a commodity being
purchased? Your real friends are the ones who enjoy your company without you
spending money to garner their attention. It seems to me your real lovers will
be much the same in that regard.

~~~
mhd
You know, some people consider quoting Styx songs a criminal offense.

Domo arigato.

------
winter_blue
This seems to have happened in the late 1930s or the early 1940s (he says
"while I was working on the bomb".)

From what I've heard, the US was very conservative at that time; girls & women
in general did not have sex before marriage. And additionally was
contraception widely available at that time?

The sexual revolution happened in the 60s and 70s. So, this does not make any
sense.

Can someone enlighten me?

~~~
enjo
That's just good old day syndrome. I've had some very interesting talks with
older folks about this very subject. They all agree that the prevalence of sex
_in the culture_ is certainly a bit more front and center today. However, men
have always been men and women have always been women.

Teen birth rates where at their highest in 40's, 50's and 60's after all.
Contraception certainly has played a role in reducing that, but it does
demonstrate that conservative America has always been a myth propagated by a
certain sect of older conservatives.

~~~
powauth
Interesting. My talks (at least with older people who went to college) have
given me quite a different perspective - where people would typically marry
very young (often out of college), and no one would even think of having sex
without at least being engaged.

I don't doubt the truth of this story (though there is certainly hyperbole);
rather I find it hard to believe that 'sleep with' in this context actually
means 'sex'. The main flags are A) Feynman is discussing with other people
about it (afaik not acceptable socially then) and B) a sexual one-night stand
would be even less so.

Finally I wager that the teen birth rate drop is solely due to an increase in
education and contraption (and even legalized abortions). Obviously, there
were some teenagers having sex in the 1940s (with a much higher liklihood of
becoming pregnant right now), but, due to the risks and less acceptance than
now, the rate was lower.

~~~
branden
Roger Ebert provides a relevant peek under history's skirt.
[http://blogs.suntimes.com/ebert/2010/01/making_out_is_its_ow...](http://blogs.suntimes.com/ebert/2010/01/making_out_is_its_own_reward.html)

Keep in mind that these were students living under strict authority. The
adults in Feynman's story and elsewhere were free to do as they pleased.

------
dwwoelfel
This probably only works if you're Richard Feynman.

~~~
aaronbrethorst
Not in the slightest. At the risk of destroying my chances of _ever_ getting
into YC (hi JL, PG, RTM et al!) I had astonishingly great luck with asking
attractive women if they wanted to make out with me last Spring. Seriously:
"hey, let's make out!" or "would it unduly offend you if I asked you to make
out with me?"

You're probably better off asking this sort of thing after conversing with
them for a bit so you don't come off as a creep. As long as you've established
your bona fides you won't, especially if you say it with a smile.

I think I got one rejection, and her response was more of a good natured,
laughing 'that sounds fun, but i shouldn't' variety.

~~~
wallflower
The shock & awe opener

[http://www.rsdwiki.com/index.php?title=SHOCK_and_AWE..._The_...](http://www.rsdwiki.com/index.php?title=SHOCK_and_AWE..._The_Apocalypse_Opener)

~~~
nazgulnarsil
the value in trying this and having it work is that you instantly understand
just how little any of the surface bullshit matters. confidence. end of story.
there is nothing else.

~~~
powauth
Well, for the 14% of the population that works on, sure.

Confidence is key, but there is a difference between a confident stud and a
confident creep.

~~~
RevRal
I'm not sure what a confident creep would be like. Confidence is confidence. A
confident man knows restraint, and as long as he's good with restraint, he's
not in danger of being a creep.

It is good to play with expectations, to acknowledge them without actually
"acknowledging" them. A creep wouldn't have the confidence to let this play
out; they have to confirm that the other person is aware of the
"acknowledgment" being played out. It's like some guy saying "did you get it?
Did you get the joke?" Except the creep is saying this with everything he
does. His body language, tone, talking speed, and even with his language.

A "confident creep" is a contradiction.

~~~
powauth
This may just boil down to semantics, but I would call the hypothetical
"confident man" you are talking about a confident, socially skilled man.

My "confident creep" has inner confidence in his abilities (he might even
think of himself as a god among men), but he cannot correctly project his
confidence (though in his mind, he is projecting it correctly). He can drop
any empathy and ask such a question without being nervous, but his style,
dress, conversation, etc. are so awkward, it fails.

Point being: Confidence is not the only thing that matters. You actually need
social skills.

------
MaysonL
The section following, on mental arithmetic, is actually even more appropriate
for HN.

------
anateus
Sounds like Feynman getting introduced to what is now called "PUA".

------
WilliamLP
I think it's important not to understate the fact that a young Feynman was
just inherently really sexy. (Talking as a straight man.)

------
sown
I could never do it.

I just can't.

I'm too much of a coward. I think I might die if I asked.

~~~
pstuart
That's the best part--you don't die. You might even live a little.

~~~
sown
On an intellectual level I totally agree with you; you're right.

~~~
blueben
Then do it.

------
powauth
Just out of curiosity: Is Feynman using 'sleep with' as a euphemism for sex?
I'm guessing that, this story being written in the 1940s/50s, pre-sexual
revolution, that it is more referring to sleeping with a some low level of
intimacy.

~~~
joeyo
Unless I am horribly behind the times, people in the US still use 'sleep with'
as a euphemism for sex.

~~~
powauth
This post teaches us all a valuable lesson: always frame the question before,
not after, asking it. People stop reading after the '?'

------
froo
Interesting and entertaining article.

I imagine if the master of ceremonies gave the a physicist the same advice
today (say, Brian Cox for example) I picture the guy walking around with a
pimp hat etc.

------
timr
Classy title. I can't understand why women don't feel comfortable in our
industry....

~~~
jamesbritt
Could you explain your comment?

Is there something sexist about getting laid, or using the phrase "getting
laid"? Because I know lots of regular women who both use that term and enjoy
getting laid.

This is a not a male/female thing; this is a conflict of attitudes about sex.

If someone gets bent out of shape because they hear people talking about
getting laid they seriously need to grow up.

Or get laid.

~~~
timr
_"This is a not a male/female thing; this is a conflict of attitudes about
sex. If someone gets bent out of shape because they hear people talking about
getting laid they seriously need to grow up. Or get laid."_

The phrase is equally trashy when used by either gender. It's possible to talk
about sex without sounding like a teenage boy.

------
tdfx
Definitely giving this a go on Friday night.

------
jmtame
there has been a lot of focus on social dynamics and this type of stuff if it
interests you, it's called pick up. for the longest time, mystery and neil
strauss were the icons. i'm not sure who it is now, or if they have been
replaced. i'd say the whole thing has died down since it got into mainstream
television. all of those tricks don't work anymore because the girls know all
about it.

if you're really looking for a bold opener, google "the apocalypse opener."
this will make pitching investors a walk in the park.

~~~
vidarh
Most girls still haven't heard about it or don't pick up on these things.

I actually spent last Saturday hanging out with a self-described pick up
artist that mostly picks girls up during the day, in the street (he insists
it's far easier than bars and clubs). The kind of stuff he pulled off right in
front of me was mind blowing. At one point he literally had a girl he was
talking to biting her lips and looking at him as if she was preparing to jump
him then and there, and he got her to give him a neck massage right in the
middle of a shop.

A lot of what he was using was routines. He'd tell a girl with a friend that
she was so adorable and petite he could just pick her up and steal her away,
for example.

Then he'd do it.

Without exception the girls absolutely loved it, and he'd joke with them about
how her friend clearly wanted them to hook up since she didn't object when he
"stole her away". In most cases their friend more or less turned into a
cheerleader for him after that, and he got the girls number without fail in
those cases.

Despite that, a lot of "pick up" has in any case transitioned into less
stilted / scripted manipulative stuff and into "self help". E.g. companies
like RSD that focus on being "natural" and improving yourself much more than
routines.

------
Dove
I wanted to respond with a rant about how terribly degrading and insulting it
is to women to classify them all as bitches, to presume a few dollars worth of
drinks, in a just world, entitles one to intercourse.

And then I realized the women involved are the sort who would gladly
manipulate a guy's emotions and waste his time for a few dollars in drinks.

And I realized that justice was probably being served without my intervention.

------
yesbabyyes
This is exactly what the fictional John Forbes Nash, Jr did in "A Beautiful
Mind". Does anybody here know whether he really did, or if they got it from
somewhere else (Feynman, perhaps)?

------
vaksel
"I bought her $1.10 worth of sandwiches,"

how old is this story?

~~~
chaosmachine
_"When I was first at Cornell I corresponded with a girl I had met in New
Mexico while I was working on the bomb."_

Considering the first sentence in the story, I'd say 65 years.

~~~
_delirium
which would put it at around $12 of sandwiches in today's money, according to
miscellaneous online inflation calculators

------
Tichy
That was before HIV. Still, the pick up artists seem to give similar advice.

~~~
nostrademons
It was also before mass production of penicillin. Venereal diseases like
syphilis and gonorrhea were a much bigger deal back then.

~~~
powauth
Agreed.

For the record, it is very hard to contract HIV from vaginal sex. (< 1/10000
per-instance chance)

~~~
blasdel
That's exaggerating quite a bit; but more importantly leaving off the other
half of the equation — it's a lot easier for a woman to contract it from a
man.

~~~
powauth
True, women are more likely to get it from a man than vice-versa, but my
number (1 in 10k) is not exaggerating all that much.

<http://hivinsite.ucsf.edu/insite?page=ask-05-10-11>

"Two large studies in California and Europe found a per-contact risk (meaning
the risk of a man becoming infected from each instance of penile-vaginal sex)
of 0.0001 (1 in 10,000) and 0.0003 (1 in 3,000)"

------
karlzt
Feynman had good karma enough to die twice of cancer

~~~
karlzt
It isn't fair to not have the option to delete my comment

