
Disappointed with Europe, Thousands of Iraqi Migrants Return Home - peterkelly
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/02/05/world/middleeast/europe-migrant-crisis-reverse-migration.html
======
drinchev
This article is obviously about a person, that is an illegal migrant, not a
refugee.

    
    
        > “I felt like I couldn’t live in an open society,” 
        > said Aqeed Hassan, 26, who plays the clarinet and, 
        > back in Baghdad after going to Finland, is trying 
        > to get a job in a military band. 
        > “My wife has her head covered, and I didn’t feel like they liked Arabs.”
    

The whole debate with migration is that IMHO the real _refugees_ need to visit
psychologists, when they arrive here. They've suffered war, laws that declare
gender-inequality ( soft words for what those laws actually are, but anyway ),
homo-phobic state-politics, etc. Those are all things that western world fight
ages to make it right ( yes, including war ) and people that have lived in
different society can't understand by just "living" there.

I'm really happy to know people from Syria, Pakistan, Taiwan & Japan. It's so
cool when we all try to understand more about the way we live our every-day
life , but on the other hand all of us will feel offended if forced to change
it. No matter what "When in Rome, do as the Romans do ...", if you can't just
leave.

~~~
cgio
Romans, and Greeks especially under Alexander, changed their lifestyles
significantly to accommodate influence from subjects of their conquests. It
comes with the imperium package.

~~~
hetman
What imperium does Finland control exactly?

~~~
cgio
You don't have to control. Being part is sufficient.

~~~
ptaipale
Being part, as in also being controlled. It's really absurd to think that
Finland is somehow responsible for actions of some empire, when the history is
more about the country being _target_ of imperialism (by neighbouring Russia
and Sweden).

------
k-mcgrady
Interesting article. I'm very pro-Europe taking in refugees. It seems however
that the guy in this article moved because he couldn't get a job in his own
country and thought he would instantly get one here - not a chance when a lot
of Europeans are still struggling to find work because of the economy. It also
sounds like he was pretty close-minded in regards to integrating into a new
culture/diet/environment. Unless the article isn't telling us something or I
misread this guy wasn't really a migrant - this was a man who wanted to move
to a new country and didn't like it very much but he took the illegal route in
instead of applying for a visa. He wasn't forced out of his home, his life
wasn't at risk etc. Like I said, I think we should be helping refugees in
every way we can but it really seems like this guy isn't a refugee.

~~~
rimantas

      > this guy wasn't really a migrant 
    

He was migrant by defintion. Not a refugee though.

    
    
      > he was pretty close-minded in regards to integrating into a new
      > culture/diet/environment
    

I wonder, what is the percentage of those hundreds of thousands who do not
have the same mindset. Alas, the thinking of those pro-Europet-taking-in-
refugees is somewhere along the lines:

    
    
      1. Take in all the refugess
      2. ...
      3. Integration done.
    

There is no magic for the step 2. And there is the big misundrestanding how
deep the difference between the cultures is. Also, the not undrestanding that
Islam is not just religion, is the way of life—and the way not very much in
agreement with the western one. Especially when the western way is considered
subpar and the wrong one. Good luck in thinking that a few lecutres on
European values will change all that.

~~~
manicdee
Step 2 in Australia after WW2 was basically: \- education \- counselling \-
socialising

It worked well enough for the influx of Vietnamese refugees too.

~~~
nazgob
Vietnamese communities tend to integrate well. At least in Easter Europe, in
Poland or Czech Rep they are doing quite well, no issues at all.

~~~
tajen
In France too. In fact I notice I know many Vietnamese descendents, but I
didn't realize it until I counted. They're Frence-rooted to me. Successful
integration.

------
technofiend
Allegedly many of the migrants are economic refugees in addition to or instead
of political ones. No doubt if you're thinking Europe is full of high wage
jobs and fat benefits for unskilled or low-skilled labor you'll be
disappointed.

~~~
shitgoose
'Europe is full of high wage jobs and fat benefits for unskilled or low-
skilled labor'

labor? you mean - like, work, right? europe is full of welfares and free
housings and subsidies. no migrant is going to labour here, just accept what
is rightfully theirs. labour is for local suckers.

~~~
badlogic
Where in Europe can you find free housing? Are you talking about refugee
centers? Monthly payments to refugees which are immediately send to respective
landlords?

~~~
shitgoose
all of the above. the bottom line - they are not paying for it from their
pocket.

------
eddd
Number of immigrants going back to the middle east in this article is funny at
best. Author gives few thousands here and there, but he doesn't give overall
number - which seems to be around 10 000. And for a 1 000 000 migrants that
are in Europe and another 1 000 000 incoming this is nothing - marginal case
fitting into statistic error.

------
mindo
The sooner they gone the better. It's clear that they only here for benefits,
not jobs, peace or freedom. Nobody wants to go to live eastern european
countries (EU) as a refugee, though they equally peaceful, open-minded, but
there are no benefits (or limited), no free housing and no free cars...

Btw, everyone suddenly forgot about existing unemployment in Spain (20%, dec
data) or Greece(24%, dec data). Other EU countries also struggling, especially
in youth employment...

~~~
threeseed
So completely misinformed.

The refuees are not leaving Syria/Iraq etc looking for benefits. They are
leaving a severe civil war. Yes there are economic migrants moving to Europe
as well but they are and will be deported. The reason they aren't staying in
the poorer countries is simply that. They are poorer and simply can't handle
the refugee intake nor provide basic essential services.

You can't blame genuine refugees for wanting to goto countries where they have
the best opportunity of leaving a normal life.

~~~
Khaine
You are misinformed.

According to the EU 60% of these people are economic migrants[1]. But lets
continue killing Europe with compassion[2].

[1][http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/eu/12123684...](http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/eu/12123684/Six-
in-ten-migrants-not-entitled-to-asylum-says-EU-chief.html)

[2][http://www.spectator.co.uk/2016/01/its-not-only-germany-
that...](http://www.spectator.co.uk/2016/01/its-not-only-germany-that-covers-
up-mass-sex-attacks-by-migrant-men-swedens-record-is-shameful/)

------
tdkl
> “They were surprised,” he said. “But I told them I’d rather die in my
> country than die outside in a strange country.”

Well since most of the so called Syrian (and many other countries too)
"refugees" are healthy young men, I really don't know what are they doing in
EU (expecting wellfare money probably) instead of fighting for their own
country for better tomorrow (what all young men did in their age around the
world since dawn of time). Europe as it is today didn't came for free.

~~~
jahnu
> (expecting wellfare money probably) instead of fighting for their own
> country for better tomorrow

Hacker News: Taking armchair coaching to a whole new level.

Sometimes I despair at the lack of empathy that is possible.

~~~
tdkl
I'll add armchair coaching from someone in a small EU country which still has
its language because his both grandfathers didn't bail and ran away, for which
I'm forever grateful of the responsibility they took.

~~~
wfn
Whatever one's musings on the status and the notion of ethnic states etc., I
don't think the situation is comparable. In my (our?) case (Baltic states),
there was (more of) a concrete "bad Other", whereas in Syria a proxy war (or
an array thereof) is taking place. One can perceive it as multiple groups of
interest fighting, with the backing of multiple actors (and the background
struggle of the extent of those actors and their backing is what might
determine the outcome, if any).

It is easier to grok a meaningful armed struggle (which one may partake in,
hypothetically) - after all, it is _tangible_ and concrete, and there's always
a bad side (isn't there), etc.; but in the completely messed up state of
affairs that people in Syria find themselves in, one can't but deduce that
they are in a war zone with no certain optimal equilibrium which one can
attempt to bring the future to. And that is really a different picture
altogether, I would think.

------
abalashov

      > He arrived in Belgium with this in mind: 
      > “I was expecting them to give me a house, a 
      > good job, so I could have a better life. This is 
      > what I was dreaming about.”
    

I'm not sure who seeded this somewhat pervasive meme in the heads of economic
migrants, but it runs diametrically counter to actually-existing reality.

~~~
jules
The human traffickers. They distribute leaflets praising the benefits of each
country.

~~~
iso-8859-1
Link to said leaflet?

~~~
jules
It's in dutch, but here's a newspaper article about it:
[http://www.ad.nl/ad/nl/1012/Nederland/article/detail/4108964...](http://www.ad.nl/ad/nl/1012/Nederland/article/detail/4108964/2015/07/28/Mensensmokkelaars-
prijzen-opvang-Nederland-aan.dhtml)

------
im2w1l
The situation in Sweden is becoming really bad. The police have decided to
cover up crime at the refugee centers because it is so high. For some age
groups in Sweden there are now 125 men per 100 women. Yes the immigration has
been enough to tilt the ratio that much. Christian refugees have to flee _from
refugee centers_ because of the dangerous situation for them there.

~~~
raverbashing
This is what you get by being extremely naive as a country, also fear of what
others think of you

------
jonesb6
Regardless to people's own position I think we can all agree that there is a
lot of emotion, rhetoric, propaganda even, surrounding the refugee and migrant
crises currently going on in Europe, the Middle East, and North Africa.

After speaking to a few colleagues in Europe, it makes me want to take a trip
to Europe just to get an un-obfuscated picture of what's really going on.

Until then I'm going to try not to form particularly strong opinions on the
matter.

~~~
abalashov
I don't know that you're going to gain much insight from a fact-finding trip
to Europe in the capacity of a tourist. A lot of the problem is subterranean
and lurks in the shadows of European society, away from the outward
presentation layer visible to a visitor, and aggregate numbers are best
understood by policymakers and experts.

When you get off the plane in Europe and amble around, you'll probably find
nothing has superficially changed much from the last time you were there--
assuming you've been before.

~~~
jonesb6
I probably misrepresented what my intentions are. I'm not actually going on a
research trip, but I do intend to visit Europe soonish, and hope to get a
better understanding of what is going mainly by talking to locals etc.

~~~
icebraining
The problem is that except for a handful of people who have direct contact,
the locals are not really any more informed than others. As an European, I
knew many people who had strong opinions on the consequences of accepting
Syrian refugees, before the first families had even arrived.

TV and social media, not personal experience, shape most of the opinions.

~~~
tluyben2
Yep and those opinions are amplified by right wing warmongering and the under
belly short term anti-solutions that the loudest shouters on tv, facebook and
youtube etc have.

~~~
icebraining
That's true for the opinions against accepting refugees, but there's also
plenty of people who find ridiculous the mere suggestion that it may cause
problems.

I support the acceptance on principle, but I'm certainly not sure of the
consequences, good or bad.

~~~
neuro_imager
Its incredible how SJWs have done their best to paint anyone who points out
the obvious problems associated with mass migration (particularly people from
an intolerant, sexist culture) as the problem.

When political correctness appears, logic and reason disappears out the
window.

~~~
icebraining
That's the thing - there are no _obvious_ problems. It's very far from
_obvious_ how this will play out.

For example, regarding the "intolerant, sexist culture" you allude to. It's
easy to paint the middle east in broad strokes, but that misses crucial
differences between countries and peoples, particularly as those countries
were often Western inventions made by grouping disparate regions and
populations.

For example, did you know that in 2010 (before even the first conflict against
Bashar al-Assad), there were over 150 thousand Syrians in the US alone?

------
jackcosgrove
Migrants to Europe will get better jobs and lifestyles easily. And the streets
of New York are paved with gold.

It took my family over a hundred years since immigration to the USA to really
integrate such that I don't feel even slightly foreign. And honestly the USA
changed us more than we changed the USA. And I agree with that - it's rude to
make demands as a guest or newcomer.

~~~
tluyben2
The would maybe do if they had non trivial skills; tech uni degrees etc. Most
can do only manual labor and/or have little or no education: we do not have
jobs for those skillsets enough for natives let alone immigrants. A friend of
mine fled for economic reasons (and more freedom) years ago: he was a surgeon
and coder and (secretly) entrepreneur in his country; absolutely no issues
getting a job and integrating.

------
BuckRogers
Most of us (meaning people that aren't European) would be willing to move
anywhere in the EU, at least for a while. I lived and worked in France for
some time. My family came from Germany and Switzerland 150 years ago, and my
wife's great grandmother came from Spain only 100 years ago (she's Mexican and
now also American). It's a really neat thing to be over there and feel that
connection to an ancestral homeland that we still have family stories about.

Close to where I grew up was a town called Swedesburg, they fly the Swedish
flag there to this day. Lots of Germans and Swedes. One would think Europe
would change immigration law to encourage people who would naturally have some
affinity or ties to the region. But that doesn't seem to be a popular idea. I
think my wife and I would be able to integrate anywhere over there, northern
or southern Europe, with zeal. We both speak English, Spanish, we can already
communicate with Italians as a result of Spanish, and are enthusiastic about
cultures and languages. I've lived in the US, France, Mexico and visited ~10
nations including Russia. My wife has visited equally as many and studied in
Valencia. I've been to Finland- it has less snow than the part of the US I'm
from (though my wife would probably not be thrilled).

I've always gotten the feeling Europe prefers its former African and mideast
colonies to immigrate north, rather than American hordes with their money and
talents (which may be more offputting to the natives than a more desperate
immigrant).

~~~
DasIch
> One would think Europe would change immigration law to encourage people who
> would naturally have some affinity or ties to the region.

No offense but this affinity people especially from the US seem to have
appears from this side like nothing more than a weird fetish driven by nothing
more than fantasy. Especially for Germany this is incredibly weird because
there is often a certain pride associated with being "German" that would get
you considered a nazi in Germany.

If you're well educated and can get a job in Europe, immigrating should be
quite easy already. I see no reason to make it easy for people just because
some ancestor happened to be from Europe.

~~~
BuckRogers
> No offense but this affinity people especially from the US seem to have
> appears from this side like nothing more than a weird fetish driven by
> nothing more than fantasy

How do you figure? My grandmother sang in German to me as a child. Fantasy?
Her husband defeated Germany in WW2 and his father defeated Germany in the
trenches of France.

It's perhaps time that Germans got a little bit of pride, and it's ironic that
to revitalize Germany (and Europe as a whole to former greatness) it would
require bringing back your best and most ambitious.

Instead, as I said, I've lived in France- the people will never admit but fear
being swarmed by people just as arrogant as the average European. Europe
prefers the chaos and civil disruption of mideast immigration because these
people are easy to look down upon and pity. Chaos is preferred over having
ones mental and financial equal or superior arrive.

It doesn't matter to us, we're doing fine over here. I'm just suggesting the
fix to all of Europe's problems of no birthrate and a cloudy future with none
of the problems being invited with the current ethnic disruption. One would
think a more desirable migrant would be preferable rather than a victim of
poor circumstance.

------
danieltillett
I personally have never understood the logical difference between a political
refugee and an economic one. It is OK to claim asylum because you have odious
political views, but not because you children are starving.

~~~
lottin
A person who's starving doesn't need asylum, they need humanitarian aid. On
the other hand, a person who's a victim of persecution needs protection.
Therefore they have completely different needs and for that reason it makes a
lot of sense to deal with these two problems separately.

~~~
danieltillett
Since it is in practice impossible to separate the two it doesn’t make much
sense.

Basically anyone from a country with an internal conflict or a less than ideal
government (this covers most of the world) can become a refuge by claiming
they have been persecuted. Even those from countries that don’t meet these
very common criteria can still claim to be refugees by destroying their
documentation and claiming to be from a conflict zone.

Since you don’t need to provide any evidence other than your own word [1], all
having two separate categories does is screen out the people who are too
stupid (or honest) to make up a plausible story of persecution.

1\.
[http://www.refworld.org/pdfid/3ae6b3338.pdf](http://www.refworld.org/pdfid/3ae6b3338.pdf)

------
Spooky23
This always happens.

Many of my grandparents generation immigrated to the US from Ireland in the
1920s and 30s. Not everyone stayed! 3-4 grand uncles and aunts moved back
because they missed home, weren't making it, or missed farming.

It's hard to move into a different society, and as order is restored in places
like Iraq, i think it is natural to see people return.

------
ap3
I guess this guy is not a refugee in the sense that things are ok for him to
go back to family

------
poof131
In a certain way this article makes me happy. I’m all for immigration as I
think it makes countries stronger, but the fact a large number of Iraqis are
confidant enough in the stability of their country to return home seems a good
sign. Despite all the scenes constantly depicted in the media about walls, car
bombs, and Isis, some people would rather just go home to live near their
mom.[1]

[1] [http://www.cbsnews.com/news/iraq-says-security-wall-being-
bu...](http://www.cbsnews.com/news/iraq-says-security-wall-being-built-around-
baghdad/)

------
cm2187
what strikes me with this migrant crisis is the number of misperceptions on
both sides:

The migrants are always refered to as war refugees when really only a minority
are.

The migrants seem to come with the perception that they will be welcomed with
open and generous arms where the European public opinion is becoming very
visibly hostile to this wave of migrants. And European countries will not have
the means and the will to subsidise immigrants on this scale.

The European public opinion turned against the migrants after the Paris
attack, just because some of the attackers travelled through these immigration
channels, but all attackers were either French or Belgium nationals, not
migrants. Same thing in Cologne where it seems all the attackers where from
Marroco and Algeria, not Iraq or Syria.

What I am worried about is the combination of these factors:

1\. This is only the start of the migrant crisis. Migrants stopped crossing
the mediteranean sea during the winter, but spring is coming, and the Russian
backed offensive in Syria will lead to more war refugees. Not only that but
when Bashar will likely regain territories from Isis, we will really see many
Isis fighters returning home in Europe, ...or seeking asylum from the certain
death if caught by Putin/Bashar (and then what do Europeans do?). And on a
longer term, the African demographic explosion means millions of africans
trying to make their way to Europe every year will be the new normal. Add to
that the fact that our societies will increasingly reduce our reliance on oil,
which will bankrupt half of the states in the middle east. Saudi Arabia for
instance will be a pretty problematic failed state.

2\. The threshold of tolerance to migrants seems to have been exceeded pretty
much everywhere in Europe. In the UK the EU referundum will largely be about
polish immigration and current polls suggest the UK will exit the EU. The far
right is rising pretty much everywhere in Europe. And the standard politically
correct response of the medias/political class (if you don't want these
migrants, you are a racist, end of discussion) will not do anything to contain
the far right.

3\. With the exception of the UK, pretty much all of Europe is in recession
and has high unemployment, and therefore will not be able to absorb this
immigration. To make things worse, all the technological change we foresee
(AI, robotics, more automation) will only reduce the supply of low-skill jobs
in favor of high-skill jobs. The exact opposite of what would be required to
absorb this immigration.

The whole thing feels like a slow motion train crash, like the accumulation of
public debt. It seems pretty obvious to me that one way or another it won't
end well.

~~~
tajen
Re Paris attacks and migrants: Only the politics are blaming it on Syria and
on migrants!

I, French, and many others, have seen through the game. Terrorists were
actually French/Belgian. And French born. It's a failure with our "Egalité des
Chances".

\- That President Hollande triggers 3000 home bustings with no warrant is
extremely racist. They did uncover arms but one should notice that they busted
a lot of... countryside hunters. What a shame on police.

\- That President Hollande triggers house arrests on hundreds of Muslims is
extremely racist again. At best they lose their jobs, at worst those Muslims
will turn back their opinion against revenge-based democracy, and we're
feeding tomorrow's terrorism with new French-born-and-raised citizen.

\- That Holland considers bombing a foreign country because we had some
terrorist attacks is, again, using politics for another agenda. By the way,
war creates new poverty, and 90% the West goes at war, they create the
terrorists of tomorrow.

\- If our terrorists have made a trip to Syria, that's at minimum a big
failure of the Shengen borders. Shengen borders which, we were told, were
stronger than just national borders, but have just let about 1.1million
migrants through. What a mockery over the voters.

\- France is in economic stagnation. I have lived in 4 countries, I'm not
naive. We don't have the money to lead a war in Syria. With that much money we
_send all kids of Africa to Disneyland_ (Do make the calculation, we spend
32m€ on war per year).

\- French citizen who became terrorists did that out of hopelessness. If
anything, we need more social fabric, more social help. We also need a strict
police. My cousin was sexually assaulted by someone we have the identity of,
and the police isn't arresting him. Sexual assault being one of the worst
crimes, it's weak to say that the police is generally lenient with crime and
that's our culture. And when our police acts, they just do so in a massively
racist way. Way to go. Talking about police, the worst thing to do for a
Socialist president is to give free reign to far-right police during Etat
d'Urgence.

President Hollande is acting the worst way against terrorism. He's not
attacking the roots at all (better economy, equal chances, less debt, less
war, balanced police with due diligence and powers in check, safe environment
for Muslims, and teaching about equality). President Hollande is teasing the
population with racism, imposing a police state on Muslims (and the rest of
the population), removing juges from the police system, bombing Syria and
losing money.

Between Hollande and FN (far right), I see no difference.

Which brings me to the matter: 1. There is no Socialist party that we can vote
for if we're against the war and pro-equality and pro-integration; 2. Voters
from the first point will turn to FN if Hollande doesn't have a better program
than FN.

I accuse Hollande of failing France, by not applying a Socialist program and
teasing France towards extreme-right.

------
manish_gill
I don't usually comment on threads like this, but you guys come off as bad as
reddit here. Cancerous.

~~~
jokoon
In what way, too liberal? Too much pro migrant, or too much anti migrant?

Anyway, calling something plebeian or cancerous doesn't improve the debate...
I mean all it's says is that you disagree with what most people believe. That
should be either enough to question your own beliefs, or at least to defend
your point of view, because all you do here is just a slight rant that is
petty at best, or a sign of defeat.

Anyway, immigration is a tough political debate, it is controversial since it
involves questioning the history of borders. Which is really not an easy thing
to solve, even for the most talented politician.

------
jacquesm
The problem is never the migrants or refugees. The problem is their luggage
and the reaction of the hosts.

