
Caltech glassblower's retirement has scientists sighing - wallflower
http://www.latimes.com/local/education/la-me-caltech-glassblower-20160613-snap-story.html
======
GrinningFool
While unfortunate, Caltech had years to let the current glassblowr train a
replacement - it's not like this was an unforeseeable event.

While it's unfortunate that it's a struggle to find a replacement now - and
from the outside I don't know what went on leading up to this - I can't help
but think if they'd set the budget for it a decade ago, they wouldn't be in
this situation.

~~~
1_listerine_pls
Now we need a massive governmental program to encourage children to become
scientific glass blowers and promote tons of glass blowing courses on Udacity.

~~~
venomsnake
I do look like a decent hobby and craft. Probably on par with knifemaking.

~~~
lsiebert
given that they have to craft a design for an apparatus based in part on a
knowledge of chemistry so they understand the experiment, thermodynamics, as
well as material science, etc, I wouldn't be surprised if it's more complex
then knifemaking.

~~~
venomsnake
> part on a knowledge of chemistry so they understand the experiment,
> thermodynamics, as well as material science, etc,

By coincidence proper heat treatment requires all of those too :) Depending on
how deep you want to plunge.

~~~
chongli
The difference is that a knife isn't likely to explode, sending hot, toxic
gases and acids all over the laboratory.

~~~
abakker
Not to belabor the point, but Knifemaking _can_ involve exposure to high
temperature molten salt baths (Sodium and Nitrate salts), liquid nitrogen,
precise timing, temperature control, and varieties of chemical etchants.

It seems that they probably have similar risks, though glassblowing for the
lab might require a broader domain knowledge.

~~~
chongli
You're talking about knife-making, I'm talking about _knife-using_. While it
may be the case that a knife-maker works with high temperatures and toxic
substances, it is not the case for a knife-user. Users of laboratory
glassware, on the other hand, are constantly risking exposure to this stuff.
They depend on high quality glassware to keep them safe.

The consequences for using a poorly-made Erlenmeyer flask are potentially
devastating on a far larger scale than for a poorly-made knife.

------
mmmBacon
We had a machinist in the Physics department at my university who made
incredible things. He made things that are out in space and tons of cool and
very difficult hardware for laser systems and particle accelerators. He could
make practically anything and was a great resource for us physics students to
learn some practical things like how to use a milling machine, machinability
of materials, tolerancing, and how to articulate our needs to a machinist.
Sadly when he retired, I heard that they didn't replace him. I still feel like
it was a huge loss for the department.

I think the glassblower here is the same. Such a shame that we don't have
pipelines for more people to pursue things like this.

~~~
tjl
In the engineering faculty at my university there's actually a machine shop
with people of various specialities. If you go there you can get things made
as long as you have a CAD drawing for them to work from. They'll also point
out issues in the drawing if they see them.

We also had a student machine shop where students could work and there was a
technician on hand to give advice (and prevent you from doing something
stupid).

~~~
michaelt
Having machinists in an engineering school makes sense from an undergraduate
education perspective; for certain types of engineering, designing something
with CAD and having a machinist make a prototype is a core part of the work
students are being trained to do.

I assume getting custom glass blown isn't a core requirement of the chemistry
curriculum, or a very common thing for working chemists to be doing.

------
tzs
I wonder how many skills like this are getting harder and harder to find as
people retire?

I'm reminded of an article I read about 20 years ago by James Boyk, who was
Caltech's music lab director and pianist in residence, about the difficulty of
finding piano technicians skilled enough to maintain pianos for concert level
pianists after his long time piano technician moved away [1].

[1]
[http://www.its.caltech.edu/~boyk/essay.htm](http://www.its.caltech.edu/~boyk/essay.htm)

~~~
femto
Or the case of the optician Achim Leistner [1]. He had to be brought out of
retirement for the kilogram replacement project, as no-one else could feel
atomic scale irregularities. His employer is no longer looking for a
replacement optician, as the lab in which he worked has been closed [2].

[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Achim_Leistner](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Achim_Leistner)

[2] [http://www.smh.com.au/technology/sci-tech/a-thing-of-
beauty-...](http://www.smh.com.au/technology/sci-tech/a-thing-of-beauty-csiro-
scientists-bemoan-loss-of-worldleading-technology-20160223-gn1upg.html)

~~~
aggie
Fascinating. Is there an explanation for his 'atomic feeling'? Doesn't seem
possible. And if it's more accurate than machine measurements, how do they
determine that?

~~~
Mtinie
The best hypothesis that I've been able to piece together from various
description of these types of "feelings" is that the individual exhibit very
specialized forms of visual synesthesia.

------
sitkack
Same thing happened at the University of Washington which as a world class
research institution has only a single glass shop in the Physics department. A
cost cutting *sshle chair (theoretician) didn't like the expenditures on
experimental physics and forced the glass blower into early retirement.
Chemistry doesn't even have one.

This is a beautiful HD video of sealing a nixie tube
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a_sKuQ8Fm8c](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a_sKuQ8Fm8c)

Borosilicate Glass working is like throwing clay + science, with added
dimensions of heat and time.

~~~
mrexroad
"subtle science and exact art" \- s. snape

------
KamiCrit
It's a shame the apprenticeship culture isn't as prominent these days. Are we
really fine with keeping the torch in the last generation?

~~~
f_allwein
It is very much alive in Germany, and this is regularly mentioned as a reason
why the economy there is doing relatively well. [0]

From the German wikipedia, I see there's a school that educates glass blowers,
and they have various areas of specialisation. [1]

[0]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_in_Germany#Apprentic...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_in_Germany#Apprenticeship)
[1]
[https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glasbläser](https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glasbläser)

~~~
_delirium
Even there it's definitely not as robust as it used to be, though it's not
declining as quickly as elsewhere. I'm more familiar with the Danish system,
which used to be somewhat modeled after the German one, but has rapidly
changed over the past 20 years. The main problem is that, of two higher-
education tracks that were previously both seen as a path to a stable, well-
paying job, the vocational/training and the university tracks, pay and
employment rates have diverged rapidly to the point where university is now
clearly seen as the better path. Lots of reasons, ranging from automation to
outsourcing to immigration. In the 1970s in Denmark a skilled machinist
working at a shipyard made more than a typical office worker, and had high job
security. But that is no longer the case. Every shipyard in Denmark has now
closed, for one thing, which led to many of the people who used to have good
jobs there struggling to find new work.

There are definitely still niches where the vocational path can get you a very
high-paying job, but as a whole it's seen as a riskier bet than it used to be,
so is getting less popular. There's also a feeling that even picking a
vocational area that looks hot now is too risky, because in 10 years it might
share the fate of the shipping industry. (A similar story can be told about
the steel industry in the US, which was once seen as a very good career path,
but now tends to serve as more of a object lesson for why not to follow the
vocational-skills path.)

~~~
briandear
Most plumbers and electricians I know make a lot more money than the infinite
number of "social media specialists" or "copywriters" I know. The problem
isn't risk, it's perception of self-worth. Many millennial-types view the
trades as beneth them (as they pour coffee at Starbucks waiting for some value
to be realized from their worthless gender-studies degree.)

~~~
dalke
I don't think these millennial-types are any different in that regard than
their Gen-X predecessors.

Except of course that adult Gen-X slackers, who are more likely to be a
homeowner, have had a lot more time to learn what a good plumber or
electrician is worth.

------
WalterBright
Wandering through the halls at Caltech was always fun. There was all the
clutter of lab equipment that spilled out into the halls, and gas cylinders
stashed everywhere. Rooms filled with equipment of inscrutable purpose, and
the well-equipped machine shops.

Quite a paradise for a nerd like me.

------
waterfowl
Notably the Salem community college program has produced a number of the big
names in "scientific" glass pipe blowing(i.e. bong moguls).

I'd imagine the money is better making high end smoking apparatus than lab
gear.

~~~
seanp2k2
As far as I'm aware, artistic glass blowing is a different field from the
scientific stuff, with different training and different schools. For those
unfamiliar with what's out there, the work of this person is pretty famous and
sought-after [http://saltglass.com](http://saltglass.com)

~~~
sitkack
Artistic glass blowing (lampworking) absolutely overlaps with scientific glass
blowing. What you are thinking of is hot glass using a kiln.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lampworking](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lampworking)

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glassblowing](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glassblowing)

------
ianai
Call me crazy, but something like universal basic income might make people
more apt to "go for" skills and apprenticeships such as this.

------
keithpeter
Quote from OA

 _" This year, Salem Community College graduated 31 glassblowers — for years,
the school graduated about 20 each year — and it expects 66 incoming students
next school year. Social media videos have sparked new interest in the craft,
Briening said."_

Perhaps a couple of apprenticeships while the experienced ones are still
around? Wouldn't cost _that_ much.

I'm liking this increase in interest in craft production and manual skills -
the kind that are harder to taylorise.

~~~
tinco
Exactly, they make it seem like it somehow is society that changed to not have
glassblowers anymore but the reality is that it was their simple business
decision.

Hiring a rookie glassblower or two at maybe 50.000 a year for 5 years would
have cost them perhaps half a million. And now instead of that they're going
to have to 'steal' one from another university for god knows how much money
and God knows for how long.

------
nemonemo
My undergrad university had the same issue, and the last glassblower retired
15 years ago founded a company and kept supplying the necessary equipments to
the research cluster.[1]

The glassblowers there seemed to think that the repair of broken glass
equipments is potentially hazardous to the glassblower, and one of the
founders who handled more repair requests had two cancer surgeries. It's only
an anecdote, but it could be a reason why it is difficult to find a successor
of this 71 year-old person.

[1]
[https://translate.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ha...](https://translate.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.hankookilbo.com%2Fv%2F62ea2d5f5a404979ab473302c20be9cc)

------
TorKlingberg
There is a curious effect that seems to bring together the most advanced
science and technology with very old tech otherwise thought obsolete. The
place where you are most likely to find floppy discs is probably a research
lab, because a rare, very expensive instrument saves its data on them. Space
probes use ancient CPUs like 386's as they can handle the radiation.

~~~
onion2k
I suspect the effect at work is simply a lack of money. Those ancient
technologies aren't better in any way, but developing new ones has an implicit
cost that's hard to justify when the old technology still does the job,
however poorly. It would be possible to use a radiation hardened CPU that's
far better than a 386 but only if someone spends millions in research and
testing first - no one is willing to do that when an existing variation of a
386 does the job already.

~~~
slededit
As feature sizes shrink it becomes much more difficult to create rad hardened
integrated circuits. Modern DRAM just barely works at ground levels of
background radiation, let alone what it would see in space.

------
ARothfusz
Sounds like someone needs to do a _Foxfire_ [1] series around Chemistry and
Physics departments.

[1]
[http://www.foxfire.org/thefoxfirebooks.aspx](http://www.foxfire.org/thefoxfirebooks.aspx)

"With nearly 9 million copies in print, The Foxfire Book and its eleven
companion volumes stand memorial to the people and the vanishing culture of
the Southern Appalachian Mountains, brought to life for readers through the
words of those who were born, lived their lives, and passed away there—words
collected by high school students who wanted to be a part of their community
and preserve their heritage."

// edit: corrected link, added quote

------
lordnacho
I'm amazed that chemistry equipment is not made in some sort of factory that
uses machines to spew out millions of containers?

How many other things do you think are actually made by hand, where you'd
think they're made by machine?

~~~
PudgePacket
The article says that he worked mostly on custom glass shapes with properties
that were very difficult to factory produce, or had very low demand, not
enough for a factory to bother with.

~~~
lordnacho
Sure, but you'd think there was some 3D printer sort of thing that could do
this?

I've never seen it done with glass, just plastic and metal.

~~~
mtreis86
3d printed glass doesn't have nearly the optical clarity or strength
properties of blown-annealed glass.

------
devy
Does this mean modern apprenticeship systems fail us? If there is such a
strong demand for this very niche skill set, there's gotta be financial
incentives to raise journeymen to the masters.

------
shas3
Some chemical companies still have scientific glassblowing departments.

------
gravypod
Could you replace glass blowing with 3D printed ceramics with a glass doping?

IT would have better thermal resistance, integrity, and be able to still stand
up to corrosive chemicals due to a glass doping.

The main issue is that it would not be transparent.

------
Shivetya
Considering the loss of old time glass factories in West Virginia and Ohio,
some only have had shut down in the last decade, one or two are still about,
plus the former glass blowers and artists are working independent there are
ample people who could get up to speed and work glass for laboratories

~~~
Etheryte
The problem with laboratories is not only technique working the glass, but as
the article points out, also generally knowing how the experiment might affect
the glass (or vice versa). These can be very specific issues that the chemist
might not think of.

------
zzz157
That's a bong.

------
HarryHirsch
It takes ten years to train people of that skill. Not having access to a
capable glassblower as a chemical researcher is an infrastructure problem that
cannot be solved with any amount of money. You need a master glassblower to
train the next generation, and you need capable apprentices, and it still
takes ten years.

Neoliberals, note that fact.

~~~
seizethecheese
Noted. Please explain how this interesting article warrants political
mudslinging.

~~~
fastbeef
While snarky in tone, he has a point - The Market doesn't have a spectacular
track record of having foresight longer than the next quarterly report.

~~~
vacri
I remember having this argument with an invisible-hand fanatic, who thought
that the economics of supply and demand simply solved everything.

"So... a neurologist takes 13 years to train from scratch. How does the market
manage that?"

~~~
seizethecheese
Well, to be fair the market _does_ manage quite well! Since it's so hard to
become a neurologist, there's a shortage unless the pay is _so_ good that
people are willing to forgo 13 years of their life to get there.

~~~
x0x0
If you ignore the massive subsidization by the federal government, then the
market manages just dandy. Taxpayers spend north of $15B on graduate medical
education annually.

~~~
refurb
Were there no neurosurgeons _before_ those gov't subsidies were in place?

~~~
chongli
Government subsidy of the arts and sciences is a practice that dates back to
the ancient world in the form of _patronage_ [1]. If you wanted to be
ridiculously pedantic, as some people on the internet are known to be, you
could argue that the neurosurgical procedure known as trepanation [2] dates
back to at least 7000 years ago. However, the modern science of neurosurgery
is far more recent so I do not think it is at all unfair to claim that gov't
subsidy predates neurosurgery by a wide margin.

[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patronage](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patronage)

[2]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trepanning](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trepanning)

~~~
refurb
Neurosurgery (as we know it today) first came about in the early 1900's.[1]
CMS, the gov't institution that funds residencies, was created in the 1930's
(well, it predecessor was).

And if we look outside of neurosurgery to general medical practice, we'll find
that it was humming along quite nicely without any gov't support.

[1][http://neurosurgery.ucsf.edu/index.php/about_us_history.html](http://neurosurgery.ucsf.edu/index.php/about_us_history.html)

~~~
chongli
You just provided a link to UCSF, a _government-funded public university_ [1],
to prove your point that the government didn't fund the development of
neurosurgery?

[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_California#Histo...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_California#History)

~~~
refurb
Just because a government-funded institution creates a webpage describing the
history of a subject, _doesn 't mean that government funded institution
created that subject._

If I link to a NHTSA website on the history of cars, are you going to argue
the government invented cars?

~~~
chongli
So your argument is that government didn't come up with the original idea for
neurology and therefore, what, exactly?

What is your argument?

~~~
x0x0
I think that, because at some point there was a doctor, therefore the free
market will make doctors just fine. Ignoring that medicine is one of the least
free markets in the US (and even less outside the US) as irrelevant. From
education (college subsidies, loans), public financing of med schools, public
financing of post med school education, etc. Not to mention who actually pays
for all that medical treatment. Or just random free market magic argle bargle.

~~~
refurb
I don't disagree that the US healthcare system is the exact opposite of a free
market. But I do disagree that it would be impossible for a functioning
healthcare system to exist without the gov't.

~~~
chongli
I disagree. The free market is predicated on free individuals making free
choices. If you contract a fatal, but curable disease there is no practical
limit to the amount of money you'll pay for the cure. The fact that your very
life depends on this treatment makes you a non-free person, rendering the free
market dysfunctional.

------
charrisku
Why is this guy hard to replace? There are tons of college stoners who have
the skills to blow you any glass you want. Visit your local head shop if you
doubt this. Why not get one of those?

~~~
wnoise
It's not just general glassblowing skill; it's the intersection of that skill
with knowledge of the sets of uses to which it will be put, and the techniques
specific to creating forms that are not just bongs and statues.

~~~
zzz157
I've seen some pretty intricate and complex bongs.

------
cr555
there are a lot of good glass blowers in the weed industry. I just don't think
they would leave their current job. :)

------
quantumhobbit
Are we at the point of being able to 3D print glassware yet?

I don't know if printed would have the same strength as hand blown, but they
could maybe fill in some of the gap with printed pieces.

------
Mtinie
Is it technologically feasible to "3D print" (or "3D blow") scientific
glassware?

I know it's possible to use computers to design the glassware apparatus that
take into account the material constraints of glass, but is there a difficulty
gap in translating that into an actual machined product?

~~~
Mtinie
I'm curious why this is being downvoted. Did I miss something fundamental in
the original article that speaks to why this works or doesn't work?

The intent of my question wasn't to blindly try to techsmith a solution, but
rather, to understand what a traditional practitioner brings to the table vs.
what can be provided via an automated process.

