

You Can’t Quit, I Dare You - tmoretti
http://brooksreview.net/2013/03/quit-i-dare-you/

======
simonsarris
> It’s not an easy thing to do, mostly because old habits die hard, but it is
> actually very possible.

That's a different premise than most people are using.

I wouldn't quit Google services because its _possible._ I would quit Google
services if it was _personally worth it._

And it simply isn't. Not for me and not for the overwhelming majority of
internet users.

Oddly, he confuses why it might be worth it too. He says at the beginning that
it is "mostly because old habits die hard", but ends with "people are willing
to give up their privacy before handing over cash". Neither of these address
the utility of being in the Google ecosystem, especially if you own several
Android devices.

I think its good to talk about the practicalities of leaving Google, but I
don't think this article does a very thorough job. It just takes jabs and
offers a few poor alternatives.

~~~

The author mentions he uses iCloud instead of Gmail, but doesn't actually say
why there would be any material difference between the two. I know that
alternatives to Gmail exist, but I need to know why I'd want to change my
email address for more than a lark.

~~~

The author claims DuckDuckGo is "fantastic", but gives zero reasons why except
for different search results. I just tried it again, and got _nothing_ useful
for "showtimes near me", "movies near me", "NBA standings", "Cafes in Nashua",
and a few recipes (for recipes Google shows reviews, total time and calories
in-line). Try "flights from SFO" in each. Wow. Prices to popular destinations
_in-line_ in Google.

What different search results, make DuckDuckGo fantastic? Does anyone have any
examples?

Here we are _at long last_ in the age of the Semantic Web, 12 years after
Berners-Lee declared it a thing (and 7 years since he lamented that his vision
had gone unrealized). The combination of web semantics and very powerful
inferences have made Google (and Bing) search into wonderful powerhouses of
utility with so much information above the fold and even before the click!
DuckDuckGo has _nothing_ in this space.

One of the best tests for search engines in my opinion is what it does it poor
or incomplete search terms. Often I don't know how to spell something, or
someone has related something to me with incomplete information. What if
someone told me to look up a cat breed called the "egyptian maw". DuckDuckGo
returns nothing at all useful, Google correctly figures out that my friend
spelled the breed wrong, its really "egyptian mau".

Interestingly, trying DuckDuckGo with capital letters ("Egyptian Maw", or
merely capitalizing Egyptian) produces _completely different results_ , in
this case more correct ones. That certainly fits the "DuckDuckGo is different"
mold, but in a way that's horrifying.

~~~
nilkn
To be fair to DuckDuckGo, I tried your searches and did get useful results.
"movies near me" took me to Yahoo! Movies, which showed me theaters near me. I
could also search for something like "movies [zip code]". I tried it for a few
different zip codes and it always got me the results I wanted, but not always
through the same site. For one zip code, it brought up the Fandango page for
that area, which had exactly what I wanted. For another, it took me right to
the showtime page of the only theater in the town.

As for "NBA standings," I'm not a huge NBA guy, so maybe I don't know what you
wanted, but it takes me right to nba.com/standings, which is the same as the
top result on Google. The only difference that I can tell is that Google puts
some of the standings in a table on the search results page, which doesn't
seem like a huge deal to me.

It sounds like you're judging a search engine based solely on the information
it takes out of links and puts in its own format on the results page, not by
the links it provides. While I agree that bells and whistles like extracting
certain results into a table on the results page are cool, that hardly seems
to me like the ultimate test of a search engine. Actually I'd say that's one
of the least important factors in a search engine, to me anyway.

Anyway, with all that said, I don't have anything against Google. I just don't
agree with your assessment of DuckDuckGo.

Edit: That's not to say DuckDuckGo is perfect. I queried my own name and found
that DuckDuckGo didn't pick up on all the stuff that Google does about me. For
instance, I can't seem to find my linkedin page through DuckDuckGo at all.

Still, honestly, I think it seems pretty decent for a search engine. Not
better than Google, but certainly useful.

Edit2: DuckDuckGo actually has some cool features that Google does not.

Search "password generator" on DDG and it actually generates a password for
you above the search results. Search "hackage reactive-banana" and it gives
you a summary of the Haskell package above the search results.

~~~
simonsarris
The author touted DuckDuckGo returning different results as an advantage, so
I've been looking for differences between DuckDuckGo and Google, not
similarities, and semantic data pulled is the easiest way to show that Google
results are more informative faster.

After all, if we ignore all the sugar from Google results, and they merely
return the same top result, why then would I use DuckDuckGo?

I've been fooling with it for 15 minutes now. Are there _any_ good examples of
DuckDuckGo results being more relevant than Google results?

~~~
nilkn
That's a fair point, and I agree with you that it doesn't really seem to give
significantly different results from Google, but regardless of what the author
of the post said, I think the main intended selling point of DuckDuckGo is
that it doesn't track user information at all. It's not an advertising
company, and Google is.

------
notlisted
Hmmmm, I suspect that Google, just like Facebook, creates "shadow profiles" on
non-members, ie profiles on unique non-member users across a very large part
of the internet (G: any site using google analytics, a +1 button, etc; FB: any
site with FB like button) As such, escape from Google or FB is near-
impossible.

You might say: sure, but at least they will not know my identity!

Try again. Most US ISPs sell click-stream data. Several services that offer
those "interesting articles elsewhere on the web" that you see on various news
outlets, have in their terms that ANY registration submitted on those sites is
passed on to them as well by their "publishing partners". Combine IP addresses
and date/timestamps, and very detailed user profiles, including personally
identifiable information, can and are compiled.

The only way to escape the clutches of G/FB is to disconnect from the web.

PS I'm fully aware of the very large number of additional tools/options one
can employ to remain more anonymous (FB disconnect, VPNs, Ghostery etc etc)
but remember: just _one_ "essential" service that you cannot live without and
requires a real name (mobile phone, landline, credit card, etc.) is all that
is needed to "close the loop".

~~~
dictum
As a paranoid would say: that's what they want you to believe.

Now that people are learning about how companies use their data in dubious
ways (and they can't deny it, only PR-speak it), it's in their best interest
to twist the narrative so that people believe that they now have no
agency—that everyone is being tracked all the time, and that there's no way to
escape that.

Why? Because if you think there's no way around it, you just give up and
eventually stop worrying about being tracked and analyzed. Since you no longer
care, you give up on blocking tools, and most importantly for them: you give
up on trying to find alternative companies that respect your privacy.

~~~
acabal
Perhaps, but there is a kernel of truth in what the parent comment says. As
long as an IP address can be associated to an undeniable identifier, like an
address, credit card, SSN, etc., your identity and activity can ultimately be
tracked. Perhaps not by Google, but by your ISP and thus the government who
can coerce that ISP, or by business partners your ISP sells that information
to.

The buck has to stop somewhere--and it stops at what packets your ISP handles,
and thus has the ability to inspect, on your IP address's behalf.

------
graue
I don't see Google Maps mentioned here. That's proving the hardest to quit for
me - by far. I moved to NYC a month ago and it would be like an order of
magnitude harder to get around without GMaps' transit, walking and biking
directions.

For biking, <http://ridethecity.org> actually gives great directions
comparable to GMaps but the site isn't mobile friendly at all - have to
memorize the route before you set out. I know there are alternatives for
transit directions but I haven't tried them - suggestions? And I haven't seen
walking directions offered anywhere.

Even for browsing maps on mobile I haven't found a good option yet. Of course
there's <http://openstreetmap.org/> on desktop, but it doesn't show your
current location and isn't very mobile friendly. There's an "OSM Browser" app
for Android, but it's solidly mediocre - no directions, doesn't show current
location, and you can only scroll one screen at a time, like MapQuest circa
2002.

It's my hope that I'm simply ignorant and some smart HNers will reply with
apps/sites I haven't heard of yet... Anyone?

~~~
agersant
I like Nokia's map app (<http://here.com>). Haven't tried it on mobile but
it's great on the desktop.

------
mynameishere
I stopped using Google's search a long time ago because of the monstrous
"instant" feature. Sure, you can turn it off, but you have to be signed in to
do that. And if you're signed in, you're being very closely monitored. It
wasn't that hard.

~~~
ivank
You can add &complete=0 to the URL, or avoid running JavaScript on
encrypted.google.com, or use <https://startpage.com/> to see results that are
very similar to Google Search

------
brianwillis
_I like to run my email on my server, but it’s a significant undertaking and I
don’t recommend you do that._

I agree with Ben on this point, but don't really understand why things are
this way. In looking for a replacement for Google Reader I found a bunch of
high quality self hosted options. Similarly, hosting a website on your own
server (or one you rent from someone else) is a pretty trivial exercise for
anyone that reads Hacker News.

So why is email so damn hard? Where is the Wordpress of email?

~~~
jfoster
Spam is one aspect of why email is hard, and having more than just a few email
accounts on your host helps to tackle that problem. Take a look in your Gmail
spam folder at how much they've managed to weed out.

~~~
brdrak
I self host my personal email and have to use gmail at work. Spam is actually
the one thing that I find gmail weaker at compared with self hosting.

My nearly stock Postfix setup with a few basic anti-spam settings, rejects
about 80% of spam. Then stock SpamAssassin config (with a nightly sa-update
cron job) gets accuracy somewhere into the 90s. The SpamAssassin Bayes plugin
takes it to very close to 100% (maybe 2 or 3 Spams per year).

The best part is that I'm in control -- when someone continues to send
annoying email even after being asked to stop (like our daughter's old
childcare provider), I can add a Postfix rule to reject their mail at SMTP
time and enjoy knowing that for every email they send, they'll get a Non-
delivery report from their SMTP server complete with a personal message from
me.

Another example: an acquaintance liked to send mass mailers to everyone in his
address book of the quality on par with most people's facebook/twitter status
updates, followed by a barrage of useless replies from people I don't know.
After realizing I never want to see those kinds of messages from anyone, I
added a regex to Postfix header_checks to reject messages with more that 15 @
symbols in To: or Cc:.

Another benefit of self hosting is unlimited temporary email aliases (e.g.
temp123@example.com). Many places don't accept the standard
myemail+temp123@example.com sub-address that gmail supports (and a spammer can
easily identify), and it's nice to be able to tell when companies abuse my
email.

------
piyush_soni
Contrary to what the author believes and would want us to believe, at this
point I _really_ don't see how is Google going to "come and get me" with the
data that I _choose to_ give it to them. Yes, I have given my credit card
number to its Play Store, but I have given that to like 15 other services on
the internet who just charge me when appropriate. They have my personal
emails, its machines read them and show me ads, which I block with adblock
plus anyway. It is training its natural language processing algorithms by
reading my emails, and not giving me a share of them. I'm fine with that. It's
giving me a really unmatched email service for that cost, and I understand
that. It is acting according to its privacy policy, which it is trying to
unify across its products. I believe so far, except one or two occasions they
have been pretty fair to it.

------
cgusto
So you quit using Google, but you advocate products by Apple and MS? Clearly
those companies don't want to monetize your data. Ever.

------
score
I'm almost completely off Google (started my exodus late last year) and it
wasn't nearly as difficult as I thought it'd be.

I moved into the Microsoft ecosystem.

It's all there. Bing is surprisingly good, SkyDrive surpasses even Dropbox and
Office 365 w/ OneNote is the best office suite available. I even got a Windows
Phone 8 (yeah, I can get carried away sometimes).

The point is, there's a whole new world out there that's sans Google, and it's
probably better than you imagine it to be.

~~~
fpgeek
It's great that you're happy in the Microsoft ecosystem, but other than the
"not Google" checkbox, what issues with being in the Google ecosystem does
being in the Microsoft ecosystem solve?

~~~
score
It's an upgrade and a change from the usual, and the change didn't disrupt my
workflow. If anything, it streamlined it.

But in terms of privacy, it just means I have a new taskmaster.

------
stevewilhelm
Just tried searching "march madness" and "yuba city hotels" in Bing,
DuckDuckGo, and Google. I don't think I will be switching.

I use Google Apps for Business: 25GB email inbox plus 5GB doc storage, custom
domain, Google Docs, admin controls, two-step verification, best spam
filtering on the planet, integrated calendars, video chat, mobile support, UI
support for multiple accounts (business and personal), 99.9% uptime, and no
ads for $5 per month / per user.

~~~
robomartin
Until you do something they don't approve of and they shut you out of
EVERYTHING overnight.

If Google provided a no-shutdown guarantee and service to service shutdown
isolation I would consider them for business. Until such time, no friggin way.

There are far better ways to deal with violators than killing off their entire
account and every single service they use. Staged restrictions with feedback
comes to mind.

~~~
stevewilhelm
In the nine years I have been using GMail, this has never been an issue for
me.

------
kephra
some more points:

maps - replace them with OpenStreetMap, that could even be used offline

news - my <http://w3dig.com/> aims on replacing this in the long run

play - I dont have it installed on my phone, and only use apk's I compiled
myself

youtube - I host videos only my own server, but I still watch yt, if someone
sends me a link

security - google blocks many one click share hosters, claiming that they are
attack sites. I have this firefox/google service off since that time.

chrome - I prefer to turn of google features in FF, I wont switch to chrome,
not for money or good words

analytics - a 127.0.0.1 in your /etc/hosts might help ;-)

apis - _ouch_ they are really evil. Sites wont work, if you turn them off, but
google will monitor you if you leave them on.

... the evil big brother google is much bigger then just search

~~~
mehrzad
You're fighting the Good Fight, though I personally think it's fine to use the
Play Store. You use FF Nightly?

------
networked
I regularly search for fairly obscure stuff in several languages, so when I
decided to quit Google Search trying to use alternatives like DuckDuckGo [1],
Ixquick [2] or Bing [3] didn't quite work out for me. The best solution I
found was to use StartPage [4], which works like a proxy for Google. Based on
over a year of experience I can highly recommend it. I rarely have to resort
to using Google Search directly and at times I prefer the non-personalized
results that StartPage gives me. Still not sure if I like their domain-
squattery name, though.

[1] <https://duckduckgo.com/>

[2] <https://www.ixquick.com/>

[3] <http://www.bing.com/>

[4] <https://startpage.com/>

~~~
greenyoda
Startpage and Ixquick are really the same thing:

 _"Startpage was released in 2009 in the United States as a new name for the
Ixquick search engine. Because the name Ixquick can be somewhat difficult to
remember and spell, people asked us for an easier name, and we were happy to
oblige. Startpage uses Ixquick's search methodologies and privacy features,
and is governed by the same privacy policies."_ [1]

[1] <https://startpage.com/eng/company-background.html>

~~~
networked
Not quite. Their information pages might not make this immediately clear but
currently Ixquick aggregates the results from several sources while StartPage
uses Google exclusively (hence the "Enhanced by Google" logo).

For a bit of fun try comparing the results they give you for the same query.

------
nearmiss
I've been attempting this to some extent. I use startpage.com for search,
google results without the tracking. Firefox for chrome, and pay $1.50 a month
for a personal domain email account.

My gmail account is only used for my Android device at this point.

------
vacri
Why is Bing seen as the only other game in town? If you're really about not
letting 'the man' in on your stuff, why would you go to the other 'the man' of
Microsoft?

I don't use them, but my privacy-conscious friends use duckduckgo for this
exact reason, and it has a wealth of rich search available.

Also, something in me philosophically opposes a mail company that charges 50%
more for IMAP access. IMAP should be encouraged for the masses, not shunted
into a 'you-only-want-it-if-you-know-it' space. IMAP solves most of the
problems I hear from normal users that isn't password-related.

~~~
LukeShu
I was thinking that about Bing too, when I first read it. Then the Bing thing
turns into "and that's a worst-case, we also have DDG, which kicks butt!"

~~~
vacri
Not sure how I missed that on a reread, but it's still puzzling why he firstly
recommends replacing 'the man' with the other 'the man'.

------
nilved
Why is anyone under the impression that living sans Google is difficult or
unrewarding? I haven't used a single Google product in months (and I use
Android.)

~~~
tolmasky
So you do use a Google product, one of the ones they care most about right
now.

~~~
Kerrick
For anybody who wants to go for Android without Google, try Replicant, an
Android distribution only running free (libre) software through its whole
stack. <http://replicant.us/about/>

------
reid
An alternative to the OP's recommendation of Hushmail is FastMail.fm. I
recently switched to FastMail from GMail and wrote about it:
<http://reidburke.com/2013/03/25/own-your-email/>

------
deconq
What he doesn't mention is YouTube - the one product for which there is NO
alternative. Sure, you can choose to post your own videos elsewhere, but when
it comes to watching videos - many videos are only posted on YouTube and
nowhere else.

------
jpxxx
I've been using DuckDuckGo exclusively for months now, and it is a dog's
breakfast compared to Google. Some types of searches are almost as good, but
nothing about it is better than Google's experience yet.

------
jamesaguilar
Why would you want to? Because they are no longer providing you with as many
free services as before? I mean yeah of you are selling ad space maybe. But
otherwise I don't really see it.

------
damian2000
He says he has quit Google, but its unlikely that he has quit using all third
paty apps that sit directly or indirectly on Google services/APIs such as Maps
& Search.

------
TommyZ
> You can easily use it on your Mac in Safari by changing your hosts file and
> in Chrome like so.

Using Chrome to help you quit google? ;)

------
ISL
Anyone else getting 404'ed?

