

Ask HN: Too kool for school, but nowhere else to go - Jebdm

Dear Hacker News,<p>I'm a university student who is interested in leaving school early.  I feel that I can learn most of the material more easily on my own, and the high cost is sending me into a lot of debt.  But I'm hesitant to just leave for a number of reasons.  I'm not sure of my chances of getting the kind of job I'm looking for without a Bachelor's degree.  I'd like to do a startup, but I don't have much cash and I would have student loans to pay back.  And on top of that, my schooling has been somewhat abnormal, which could complicate things.  Any advice?<p>About me: I'm currently 18 years old, with a couple of thousand dollars in the bank, but with nothing but a laptop to my name (not even a car).  I left high school at 15 to attend Bard College at Simon's Rock (http://www.simons-rock.edu/), a liberal arts school specifically for early college students.  I did well there; I took a lot of CS courses, kept a 3.8, and was the founding president of the Turing Club.  At Simon's Rock, you typically either go for two years, get an AA, then transfer, or you stay for the full four years and write a thesis.  I opted to transfer, since I thought a degree from somewhere more well-known would be more useful.<p>So this year I'm at the University of Edinburgh.  I was admitted as a 2nd year student, which was somewhat disappointing, but partially made up for by the school's one-extra-year Master's program.  The school has an excellent curriculum, which is the main reason I chose it, but it's expensive for non-EU students, and I've found the actual classes to be mostly useless as I can learn the material on my own more easily.<p>As for my qualifications/experience:  Probably most significantly, I've been programming for ten years now.  I've mostly done small projects and stuff on my own, so there's not much work on the internet that I can point at for examples, unfortunately, but I do have some things I'm in the midst of cleaning up to post online.<p>I've got experience in a fair number of languages and paradigms.  My go-to language is Python, but I'm comfortable in Haskell, C, Java, Javascript (plus HTML/CSS), and Scheme (as well as MIPS assembly).  I also have some experience with Ruby, C++, Io, Smalltalk, Lua, and Forth.  I've coded a bunch of stuff over the years, including toy VMs, programming languages, games, web stuff, various "system" prototypes (user interfaces and the like), higher-order programming libraries, one-off math stuff, and the occasional script.<p>As for school courses, I've done data structures and algorithms, theory of computation, formal and natural languages, functional programming, software engineering, and computer organization and systems (twice, actually, due to transfer weirdness).  Outside of CS, I've done math through linear algebra, discrete math and counting, a few years of writing/philosophy/literature courses, as well as physics, German, linguistics, Buddhism, electronic music, political ideologies, and economics &#38; technology.  Plus probably a few more I'm forgetting.<p>My favorite parts of computer science are models of computation and human-computer interaction.  You can probably tell I'm a language nut from the list above; this is of course closely related to my interest in models of computation.  While the "pure" models like the lambda calculus et al are cool/useful, what I'm really interested in is ways of coherently combining different models in an effort to make expressing complex computational ideas more naturally.<p>And that obviously ties into human-computer interaction.  But beyond languages and models of computation, I'm also interested in  system and interface design.  The two are, again, closely related; while system design incorporates more non-human components, both are about creating useful, efficient, and complex interactions while maximizing ease-of-use and minimizing bloat.  I think we're witnessing a revolution on the human level of interface design, with new input modes (touch, motion-sensitive input, etc.) and new form factors (especially portable, location-aware devices).  And I think that there is an overhaul of large-systems design coming as well; we've moved further and further away from modular designs like those in Unix and Smalltalk, but we're going to have to reinvent them in order to really draw the potential out of our many-devices always-connected world.<p>Hopefully that gives you a picture of the sort of things I'm interested in and of my situation.  In general, I'm really just interested in working on a useful product which makes peoples' lives easier, from webapps to system code; but the more of the above stuff it included the more I'd be interested, and the better I'd probably be at it.<p>So I guess I'm not looking for a single answer, so much as some advice.  But if it helps: How would I go about getting a job that suits me, especially without a Bachelor's and with frustratingly few connections?  Would it be a just terrible idea to quit school at this point?  Obviously it's hard to judge whether I could handle a startup, but assuming I could, how could I make it work with minimal cash and student loans to pay?
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semanticist
If you're still at Edinburgh, I'd recommend discussing this with your DoS,
especially if they're an Informatics person. You might be able to find
projects being run by AIAI (<http://www.aiai.ed.ac.uk/>) or other institutes
inside Informatics that are interesting to you and you can contribute to. If
nothing else, this will help make contacts and looks good on your CV.

There's also the Entrepreneurial Club (<http://www.edinburgh-
entrepreneur.man.ed.ac.uk/>), which again will help you make contacts and give
you a place to discuss ideas and ways of achieving them. There's also
<http://techmeetup.co.uk/>, the local $LANGUAGE user groups (I've found
<http://scotrug.org/> really useful) - there's a huge number of tech/web meet
ups in Edinburgh that offer really good opportunities to make connections.

If you can afford it at all, I'd definitely recommend finishing your BSc/BEng
at Edinburgh - if you're intending to stay in Europe it's a very well
respected university, and there's a pretty good geek/tech culture in
Edinburgh. I think maybe you just need to push beyond the lectures a bit and
make contact with it?

------
zaidf
I took two years off after my second year. I was doing terrible in school upto
that point and prayed everyday that one of my ideas will kind of mature and
give me a genuine reason to leave. I got that chance and left for two years.

During the two year break, I learned a TONNE...about everything I didn't know.
It was pretty humbling. But even more educational!

I returned to school last year. And it's been AWESOME. Nothing like the first
two years.

Before taking time off: I signed up for random classes.

After taking time off: I nitpick each class

Before: I didn't care if a class I signed up for sucked(for any reason)

Now: I drop it the second I feel I won't enjoy the class

Before: I didn't think I could learn much in class

Now: I _know_ areas that I outrightly suck at. Each semester I load myself
with courses in one area(last semester was strategy; the semester before was
marketing; this semester is going to be interpersonal communication).

Lesson: Take time off! Best case you won't need to come back. Worst case
you'll come back knowing what you gotta learn.

------
olalonde
I pretty much in the same situation as you and have a similar background
(currently studying software engineering). Actually I did quit school for one
year and worked as a web developer. I liked it, good salary and all, but I
chose to go back to school for a few reasons.

1) School is a great place to make connections.

2) My parents are supporting me while I'm still studying.

3) Most of all, I'm an entrepreneur and school is a great time to start a
company (see 2 reasons above +
[http://answers.onstartups.com/questions/2059/founding-a-
star...](http://answers.onstartups.com/questions/2059/founding-a-startup-
while-at-school)).

4) Although I also learn better on my own (didn't learn much at school),
bachelor opens the door to post-graduate studies and gives some credibility
when looking for VC funding.

Finally, nowadays, you can launch a startup with minimal capital investment,
so don't worry about money.

------
jacquesm
This is coming from a high-school dropout, so it's typical do as I say do not
do as I do advice: Learn to finish at least something.

After reading your story it sounds like you are very good at starting stuff
but not very good at staying until the job is done, that could turn in to a
real liability in the long run.

If you get lucky doing a start-up (the chances of which for a first-timer are
relatively small) then you should definitely count your blessings, for
everybody else there is always the job scene.

edit: Oh, and nothing precludes you from doing both, if your start-up takes
off you can always drop out. If it doesn't you'll have at least some
marketable skills with a piece of paper to help you along and one failure
notch on your belt.

------
alanthonyc
Advice you don't want to hear: finish school, pile up that debt, kick ass in
those classes whose material you could "pick up on your own more easily."

The best kind of debt is school debt. If you leave school, you'll be piling up
debt anyway, but not that kind that is easily forgivable. And those
connections you're looking for? You get them _at_ school - either by meeting
classmates or professors, or showing future employers that diploma.

Like someone else mentions on here, the important thing is to learn to finish
_something_. Your list of cool and interesting stuff you've studied is only
cool and interesting to us here, not to your potential employers, even if any
of us here were your potential employers.

Unless you've got somewhere else to go, school is the best place to be. And if
you had somewhere else to go, you wouldn't be asking about it online.

~~~
rms
In the USA at least, school debt is not forgivable at all, not even under
bankruptcy.

~~~
semanticist
Perhaps 'understandable' rather than 'forgivable' in the financial sense?

People are less likely to question why you have thousands of dollars of debt
if it's for something obvious, like your mortgage for your house or your
undergraduate degree.

------
mping
It seems to me that you are experience that "lostness" sensation every
teenager feels. I reiterate zaidf's advice. Take a year off or so, travel the
world, enjoy your life. Having 18 is a great time to travel or do other stuff
that you probably won't have the guts to do again.

In due time, you will probably feel the need to come back to get an education.
Just don't let the education completely out of your life, in my experience
having a degree is great both personally (you acquire alot of skills, meet
interesting people, etc) and professionally (I would almost always prefer the
guy with a good CS major AND some programming experience over the guy with 10+
years programming but no CS major).

------
rms
Are your parents willing to pay for anything? If they aren't paying anything,
my advice is to go to school somewhere where you don't have to rack up as much
in student loans, unless it's a university that really has something special
to offer (Stanford, MIT, etc.).

If you want to work for a year or two or start a startup before you transfer,
go for it. To show potential employers you are good at what you do, build
something cool.

