
Researchers Find Herpes Viruses in Brains Marked by Alzheimer's Disease - molecule
https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2018/06/21/621908340/researchers-find-herpes-viruses-in-brains-marked-by-alzheimers-disease
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dghughes
As someone who gets cold sores this worries me. I know when I am super
stressed because a cold sore will begin to appear on my lip. It's always there
but stress allows it to replicate, all parts of my immune system are not able
to cope during stressful events. I hope this doesn't mean I'm at risk for
Alzheimer's disease.

At least it's now known when people sleep it clears out beta-amyloid proteins
in their brains. Not a cure but at least it's good to know sleep helps flush
out the bad stuff.

[https://www.nih.gov/news-events/news-releases/brain-may-
flus...](https://www.nih.gov/news-events/news-releases/brain-may-flush-out-
toxins-during-sleep)

~~~
codezero
I don't know your situation, but if you don't already, you should get an RX
for Valtrex or some other anti-viral. You can usually take it _before_ the
cold sore appears if you can tell it's about to (swelling, stress, etc...) –
and it can and often entirely suppresses the external appearance for most
people.

~~~
dghughes
Thats's interesting but I'm referring to a cold sore not the genital or other
types.

As annoying as it is I can live with it I was just worried it was the type
that raised the risk of Alzheimer's disease.

~~~
rl3
> _Thats 's interesting but I'm referring to a cold sore not the genital or
> other types._

"Cold sores" is just another word for oral HSV-1 or more rarely oral HSV-2.
While HSV-2 is commonly referred to as genital herpes due to its historical
preference for that site, the truth is that both viruses can readily infect
both oral and genital sites. Genital HSV-1 for example is very prevalent:

 _" With respect to genital HSV-1 infection, 140 million people aged
15-49-years were estimated to have genital HSV-1 infection worldwide in 2012,
but prevalence varied substantially by region. Most genital HSV-1 infections
are estimated to occur in the Americas, Europe and Western Pacific, where
HSV-1 continues to be acquired well into adulthood"_ [0]

In other words, the dichotomy between cold sores and genital herpes is largely
pointless; it's the same virus. Oral can transmit to genital and vice/versa.
Why one is heavily stigmatized and the other not is simply puzzling.

[0] [http://www.who.int/news-room/fact-sheets/detail/herpes-
simpl...](http://www.who.int/news-room/fact-sheets/detail/herpes-simplex-
virus)

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shusson
The study referenced in the article says they found HHV-6 in normal brains
_but_ there was "increased HHV-6A and HHV-7 in brains of subjects with
Alzheimer’s disease" [1]. So I would say that is surprising and worth noting.

[1]
[https://www.cell.com/neuron/fulltext/S0896-6273(18)30421-5](https://www.cell.com/neuron/fulltext/S0896-6273\(18\)30421-5)

~~~
jacquesm
It may be worth noting but it also could very easily be a mistake of
identifying an effect as a cause. Once the body is unhealthy all kinds of
organisms use that opportunity to stake a claim.

~~~
XalvinX
Great point. Healthy people (or any other life form) do not suddenly get sick
and die. I think this is a major issue with the entire system of Western
medicine. Instead of focussing on healthy diet, lifestyle, exercise, managing
stress, the system just wants to identify certain 'germs' and give pills that
are supposed to kill those 'germs'...

As I understand it, licensed physicians in the US, even after like 12 years of
higher education, never even study nutrition...what could possibly be more
fundamental to human health than the food you eat??

Refreshing to see a comment like jacquesm made here.

~~~
xenadu02
> I think this is a major issue with the entire system of Western medicine

As opposed to magic like Chinese medicine? Animal Spirits? Shaman? What
exactly are you comparing to?

Western medicine, for all its serious flaws, has done more to increase life
expectancy and save lives than any other system. By many orders of magnitude.

> Healthy people (or any other life form) do not suddenly get sick and die

Demonstrably false, all throughout human history. In some societies people
simply reused children's names and didn't mourn the way we do because it was
an absolute certainty that at least a few of your children would die young.

People have been suddenly dropping dead from cancer, flu, random infections,
et al for all of human history. In my mother's youth every summer random kids
came down with polio. They woke up one morning saying "momma I can't move my
legs" and that was the end of their dreams.

Animals also drop dead. Why do you think there are so many animal rituals
designed to avoid actual combat? Why do you think males of species that fight
each other chest pound, yell, stomp, leap, or otherwise put on these displays?
Because one injury can mean death. Even a scrape can easily get infected. Such
displays are designed to avoid this scenario as often as possible.

> Instead of focussing on healthy diet, lifestyle, exercise, managing stress,

Western medicine does focus on these things. They aren't magic cures any more
than pills are... but peddlers of woo and unscientific nonsense often like to
pretend diet can cure every disease, so I'd urge caution lest someone think
you're one of those people.

~~~
tomhoward
Hey there, you needn't be so belligerent on this topic; it's a topic where
everyone cares about the right things - i.e., keeping people alive and well
for longer.

Through my own health challenges that have extended back 10+ years, I've
avidly used both conventional medicine and natural/complementary treatments
(acupuncture, naturopathy, emotion-based therapies, therapeutic breathing
exercises), and through extensive experience I know better than most that both
have their place and both serve very different functions.

Nobody doubts that modern medical innovations like antibiotics, complex
surgery and many other western medical approaches have done tremendous good in
terms of curing previously incurable illnesses and extending lives.

But on the matter of "people have been suddenly dropping dead from cancer,
flu, random infections, et al for all of human history", it's uncontroversial
that people's propensity to contract these illnesses and die from them is
heavily influenced by their underlying state of health, i.e., factors like
organ function, immune system fortitude, inflammation, hormone and
neurotransmitter levels, nutrient intake/absorption and emotional state - all
of which interact in vastly complex ways.

It's not a damning dismissal of Western medicine to say that it doesn't do so
much to focus on these factors that are further upstream; it's too busy
dealing with people who are acutely unwell or at risk of mortality.

Of course when you visit a general physician for a checkup they'll tell you to
avoid smoking, to not consume too much alcohol or junk food and to eat plenty
of vegetables.

But if you really want to go deep into understanding and optimising your
underlying health - which I needed to do, due to having impairments that
conventional medicine couldn't help with - less conventional approaches can be
highly beneficial.

And for what it's worth, I do know a lot about the placebo effect!

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coldnose
>> "We mapped out the social network, if you will, of which genes the viruses
are friends with and who they're talking to inside the brain," Dudley says. In
essence, he says, they wanted to know: "If the viruses are tweeting, who's
tweeting back?"

Finally, a relatable metaphor for millennials like me!

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ekianjo
> They also found that these Alzheimer's risk genes seem to make a person's
> brain more vulnerable to infection with the two herpes viruses.

If that is the case, people predisposed for Alzheimer will naturally have more
herpes virus in the brain - does not seem like viruses are anywhere near the
root cause of Alzheimer's.

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code51
Someone noted (vedtopkar) these are "HHV-6 and HHV-7, which cause roseola".
Note that it's an incredibly common infection in babies.

There's also another study investigating association between HHV-6 and measles
virus serology and brain antibody in autism:

[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9756729](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9756729)

Reading these studies makes me think an ineffective blood-brain barrier or a
brain-specific defence might trigger common viruses to present a wider family
of brain-related diseases.

We also know there is literature on encephalitis caused by both HHV-6 and
measles. I'm speculating that even in a micro, benign form, this condition is
enough the shake brain structure.

We should probably investigate a more complex but more generic model of brain
diseases.

~~~
Gibbon1
> measles virus serology

Potentially topical oddball thing I learned while looking up something on
measles. About 1 in 10000 people[1] that contact measles go on to develop
subacute sclerosing panencephalitis[2] 6 to 15 years later. While results in
brain deterioration and death.

[1] Might be 10X higher.

[2] Obligatory Wikipedia link:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subacute_sclerosing_panencepha...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subacute_sclerosing_panencephalitis)

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newnewpdro
It always struck me as odd how accepting everyone was of the inevitability and
benign-ness of chickenpox. Even though we know the virus is still present
after the rash, it seemed strange to me how it was assumed no less visible
effects were occurring.

HPV is another which I found odd how little importance was placed on
preventing its spread growing up. Even today we're still selective about the
immunization of people against this virus, knowing it's responsible for most
occurrences of cervical cancer.

I suspect we'll almost certainly learn something less obvious about herpes of
comparable importance to HPVs role in cervical cancer.

~~~
rl3
> _It always struck me as odd how accepting everyone was of the inevitability
> and benign-ness of chickenpox._

Funny enough, genital Varicella Zoster (chicken pox) is a thing. Somewhat rare
since most people already contract the virus at a different site during
childhood, but it happens. It even presents very similar to a normal HSV-1/2
genital infection since it is also a herpesvirus.

------
virusduck
This is not surprising. At least one study [1] showed 85% of people's brains
are PCR-positive for at least HHV-6. It is also important to keep in mind that
herpesviruses have evolved with us (and many other species) and in some ways
are considered part of our normal flora. They may also play an important role
in the proper development of our immune system.

The data in this paper is suggestive (and complicated!!), but there is no
convincing mechanism for the virus having anything to do with the development
of Alzheimers. The real virology here will be very hard.

[1]
[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11285567](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11285567)

~~~
zbjornson
Likewise, detectable RNA/DNA does not mean there's virus (virions).

An unusual example, but it's common to have Ebola virus RNA in semen (a fluid
from another immuno-privileged site) with no detectable virus for months after
primary infection.
([https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/nejmoa1511410](https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/nejmoa1511410)
among others.) Similar patterns exist for lots of other viruses.

~~~
XalvinX
So why don't they try to isolate the virus itself instead of looking for
RNA/DNA? Too expensive? Or impossible perhaps?

~~~
zbjornson
Realistically, probably because they're not virologists. Looking for nucleic
acids is easy/commonplace. Virus culture, electron microscopy and immunoassays
are more specialized techniques.

~~~
XalvinX
If they aren't virologists, maybe they should leave this kind of research to
those that are? The headline says "Researchers Find Herpes Viruses" ...but
they didn't (or cannot?) find them? Then, umm...why does it say that?

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russdill
Stuff like this always reminds me of:

[https://helix.northwestern.edu/blog/2010/02/when-science-
goe...](https://helix.northwestern.edu/blog/2010/02/when-science-goes-wrong)

I'm guessing they are being as careful as they can in regards to selection
bias.

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dkural
People with Alzheimer's seem to have more things in their brain that shouldn't
be there than normal. Past findings include types of immune cells that
shouldn't be there, various yeast, other types of virus etc. It's not clear if
all those are there due to the blood-brain barrier loosing structural
integrity, or those cause Alzheimer's in the first place.

------
known
Scientists have engineered a version of Herpes virus that can kill cancer
cells

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talimogene_laherparepvec](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talimogene_laherparepvec)

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mamon
Offtopic: after declining GDPR consents I was redirected to text only version
of the page:

[https://text.npr.org/](https://text.npr.org/)

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justinclift
Same here. Personally, I kind of prefer the text only version. :)

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polskibus
Text only version
[https://text.npr.org/s.php?sId=621908340](https://text.npr.org/s.php?sId=621908340)

~~~
anoncoward111
Oh, my god. Is there a browser extension or a third party website or anything
out there that does this for all websites? I haven't had much luck, but that's
partially because some sites have chosen to make themselves unusable without
javascript enabled.

NPR, thank you for this subdomain <3

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tneuont34ntent
Safari's "Reader Mode" also does this.

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wsc981
You can also automatically enable "Reader Mode" for a single domain or all
domains by pressing the reader mode button for like 2 seconds. Which is
something I just recently discovered. I like this feature a lot on my iPhone.
It can also be automatically enabled on macOS in the same way.

~~~
russh
Thanks, this is useful to me.

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protocode
This reminds me of a line from one of Eddie Murphy's comedy routines back in
the 80s: "Herpes is like luggage; you keep that s--t forever."

