
Last Task After Layoff at Disney: Train Foreign Replacements - cgoodmac
http://nytimes.com/2015/06/04/us/last-task-after-layoff-at-disney-train-foreign-replacements.html?referrer=
======
Shank
> "In late November, this former employee received his annual performance
> review, which he provided to The New York Times. His supervisor, who was not
> aware the man was scheduled for layoff, wrote that because of his superior
> skills and “outstanding” work, he had saved the company thousands of
> dollars. The supervisor added that he was looking forward to another highly
> productive year of having the employee on the team. The employee got a
> raise. His severance pay had to be recalculated to include it."

That's absolutely horrible. Not only is it a case of left hand not talking to
right hand, it almost seems cruel to review someone in the position of being
laid off so highly that it warrants a raise. Nobody stopped to consider "maybe
we should keep this employee around?" It's disheartening.

~~~
baldfat
It's called out sourcing, So it is 100% not dependent of the employee
performance it is based on the ability to out source to save money 100% of the
time.

This is why Labor Unions are good :) BUT most people these days look at them
negatively sadly.

~~~
ulfw
Outsourcing rarely saves money. And while we can argue in how many percent of
cases outsourcing ends up being cheaper than retaining your current
experienced engineers, I am certain that number would never equal 100%.

~~~
baldfat
I am certainly NOT a fan of out sourcing. My School District did that with
Substitute Teachers due to low pool. Guess what it failed at its reasoning
100%.

------
bglazer
> “It was so humiliating to train somebody else to take over your job. I still
> can’t grasp it.”

Indeed, that sounds terrible. I haven't been in that (exceptionally difficult)
situation, but I wonder why the laid off employees consented to this? I
wouldn't be in any rush to help the company lay me off and transition to a
cheaper replacement. Was their severance package dependent on this?

~~~
toomuchtodo
> Was their severance package dependent on this?

Yes. Its financial extortion.

~~~
jfuhrman
Or they're paying a 10% bonus of yearly salary as payment if they're willing
to train their replacement.

If someone offered me $10K extra on top of my salary to take the trash out and
clean the company kitchen for 2 weeks, I would gladly do it without blinking,
even if it's a little humbling. I don't know about you. Calling it extortion
is a bit much.

~~~
czinck
10% is around a months wages. I'd tell them to get lost if that's all they
offered to train my replacement (plus regular salary), I could find a new job
in less than a month. I'd need a few months severance to go through that level
of embarrassment, and not contingent on me finding a new job.

~~~
jfuhrman
I believe they have been given notices longer than a month.

Anyway, it's a financial transaction for knowledge and labor like any other,
if you think you're getting a raw deal, you should not accept the deal.

Not sure how it is financial extortion though.

~~~
s73v3r
Because you've taken people who are at a very vulnerable spot in their lives,
and who are probably going through a lot of self doubt as to whether they'll
be able to find another job in that time.

------
Splendor
I was in the same position when I worked at H-P. They outsourced our team to
Costa Rica and we spent our last few months training our replacements
remotely. The last few weeks we just sat around, watched them work, and
answered their questions.

It was a weird position to be for several reasons, but the weirdest part was
getting to know lovely people who were excited about their new job in Costa
Rica and feeling the perverse incentive to train them poorly so my job might
last a couple more months. It's not something I ever hope to relive.

------
wycats
Isn't this just straight-up illegal?

The H1B program disallows hiring foreign workers and paying them less than the
equivalent rate for US workers. While there may be some debate about whether
tech companies find ways to skirt the law, "we are laying off US workers to
save money and replacing them with H1B workers" seems to flagrantly violate
the law. No?

~~~
TulliusCicero
I think the issue is that the new employees were not employees of Disney, but
rather they were employees of a consulting company that Disney contracted out
to. Presumably those employees had been hired by the consulting companies as
H1B workers ahead of time, thus you can't tie their hiring directly to the
later layoffs at a different company.

Basically, it's a loophole that should probably be closed.

~~~
dennisgorelik
Are you supporting discrimination against foreigners?

~~~
glesica
Yes. And why not? That's the whole point of countries. Americans are
discriminated against by India, so we discriminate against Indians. Same with
the English, Canadians, Chinese, Finns, Malaysians, name a country. Is it a
lovely, wonderful system? Absolutely not. But I'm sick of being told I have to
love the H1-B program or I'm somehow racist.

Here's what I would support: if another country wants its citizens to be able
to work in the US, they can offer to let Americans work there. Every American
who goes to work there means one person from there can come work here, free
and clear, but the numbers have to stay in lock-step, the net delta can't be
greater than one for a given year.

~~~
dennisgorelik
> why not?

Because unfair discrimination makes it worse for everyone involved: workers
(cannot get jobs), employers (cannot hire qualified people), consumers (higher
prices).

> That's the whole point of countries.

Of course not.

Countries have their own legal system which could be good (competition between
various legal systems), but there is no good reason to discriminate on the
government level against foreigners.

Even if other countries discriminate against Americans, the US would still
benefit by NOT discriminating against citizens of these countries.

~~~
glesica
> Even if other countries discriminate against Americans, the US would still
> benefit by NOT discriminating against citizens of these countries.

Some Americans would benefit. Others would suffer because competition would be
tougher. And of course no one wants a social safety net because that would
reward laziness or some other awful protestant work ethic bullshit.

If unlimited immigration came along with a robust social safety net (at least
single-payer healthcare and a basic income guarantee) I would be right there
with you.

------
nickbauman
I know someone who has consulted for Disney IT a few years ago. Specifically
in engineering management. They did not have a very high opinion of the
culture and the overall productivity of the organization was abysmal; he
considered it a "Dilbert-land" place to work. So in that vein they seem to be
doing something completely predictable.

If someone comes to me to outsource me, I would totally help them do it
because they will end up with exactly what they deserve. Outsourcing software
engineering is the last refuge of incompetent management.

~~~
jobu
Exactly what I was thinking after reading this in the article:

 _" In late November, this former employee received his annual performance
review, which he provided to The New York Times. His supervisor, who was not
aware the man was scheduled for layoff, wrote that because of his superior
skills and “outstanding” work, he had saved the company thousands of dollars.
The supervisor added that he was looking forward to another highly productive
year of having the employee on the team."_

Seems like they should be looking to lay off some managers as well.

------
chuckcode
I would like to see H1-B visas awarded to individuals rather than the
company/position. It really distorts the job market to have people tied to a
particular position at a particular company. If H1-B visa holders could look
for other employment after say 6 months then the market could set the fair
wage implicitly rather than trying to get the government to do explicitly
which they are pretty poor at doing in my experience.

The American immigration system has a lot of issues with it but I think this
could be a relatively easy fix. I've worked with a lot of H1-B employees and
in general I think the United States is really lucky to have such talented
people willing to relocate and live in the US.

~~~
prostoalex
Would the applicant then cover his own relocation expenses? Landlords usually
want to see a paycheck stub or a letter of intent stating that a paycheck is
coming.

Also, existence of an offer from a legitimate company determines candidate's
eligibility. How would Department of Labor filter eligible candidates from the
ones who've just padded their resumes?

~~~
chuckcode
For my above hack of the current system an applicant would still be sponsored
for an existing position at an existing company. The only difference would be
that after some period of time, say 6-12 months the applicant could take the
visa and use it for employment at other companies. If employers are paying
competitive wages it shouldn't be any problem to retain H1-B visa workers like
regular workers.

My feeling is that the current system of tying applicants to positions is
supposed to protect US workers but actually distorts the market and
incentivizes companies hire H1-B visa holders as they can't leave easily but
can still be fired anytime.

~~~
prostoalex
> The only difference would be that after some period of time, say 6-12 months
> the applicant could take the visa and use it for employment at other
> companies.

That's the way things work currently
[http://www.immihelp.com/visas/h1b/h1-visa-transfer-
faq.html](http://www.immihelp.com/visas/h1b/h1-visa-transfer-faq.html)

Legally one could start the interviewing process the day after they arrive in
the US on H1. Contractually they might have signed agreements to compensate
their employer for relocation and legal costs if they work for less than a
year.

~~~
chuckcode
In principle you can change jobs but it is really just new H-1B petition which
is expensive and time consuming for new employer. To quote from the site you
link:

"Therefore, when people say 'H1 transfer', it is actually just a new H-1B
petition, all over again, without the restriction of the H-1B cap"
[http://www.immihelp.com/visas/h1b/h1-transfer.html](http://www.immihelp.com/visas/h1b/h1-transfer.html)

------
geebee
This is the sort of thing that makes me very sympathetic to unions. Imagine if
the entire disney IT workforce stood up at once and said "ok, we all leave,
now." What would happen to Disney's IT systems?

This is almost a perfect example of divide-and-conquer, where a united and
powerful single actor (a corporation) picks off workers one by one.

I'm pretty sure, at this point, that IT workers will never unionize. I'd say
that people who see the value in a union will probably just go into other
fields (like nursing, where unions have actually successfully threatened
strikes over exactly this issue).

~~~
prostoalex
> Imagine if the entire disney IT workforce stood up at once and said "ok, we
> all leave, now." What would happen to Disney's IT systems?

The outsourcing company would then submit a new bid covering a broader range
of IT systems.

~~~
geebee
I don't know how things work at disney, but my guess is that at most companies
with even mildly complex IT systems governing operations, things would
collapse in an extremely damaging way long before an outsourcing company would
be able take over operations.

I think that within about 15 minutes of a general IT strike, the electric
fence would go out, the velociraptors would escape, and the jedi knights would
start to wish those were real light sabers.

~~~
smileysteve
> I think that within about 15 minutes of a general IT strike, the electric
> fence would go out, the velociraptors would escape, and the jedi knights
> would start to wish those were real light sabers.

I got a good laugh at this, seeing it as a reference with the velociraptors
but only realizing that all of those things are in their park as I finished
the sentence.

~~~
Avshalom
...Jurassic Park are a universal property

------
tracker1
This is why I say that the floor for H1-B should be 5X the minimum wage, or
10x the poverty level and a 20% employer tax on top of that. Then there would
be a lot less abuse.

If you really cannot find someone domestically to fill a role, there's no
reason you should be paying less for such rare skills.

~~~
StillBored
Yes, taking the financial advantage out of the equation would do much to
discourage h1-b abuse.

Instead of trying to pin it to some standard of living metrics, I think its
probably better to make it a multiple of the prevailing wage instead of the
prevailing wage. If H1-B's are truly filling positions that companies cannot
fill domestically then those workers should be worth far more than domestic
counterparts. Companies should also be required to provide justification for
rejection of each domestic worker that applied for the position.

These two things would probably fix the majority of the H1-B abuse, whether it
results in more outsourcing is another question. But, large companies have
data centers that need skilled labor to diagnose problems on site, be it SFP
replacement or simply tracing cables. So i'm not sure how much of that kind of
work can actually be outsourced.

~~~
lotu
You could also make it so an H1-B worker has several months after quitting or
getting fired to find a new job in the states. This would mean the employe
isn't afraid of loosing their job as much. So they could demand a higher
salary.

------
will_brown
I know foreign workers are a controversial topic in the software/tech
industry...but intrinsically does it matter the replacement worker was
foreign? In other words, would there be less controversy if the worker was
replaced with a lower paid American, or what if the foreign worker was paid
more (it appears opponents of foreign workers might take greater issue if the
foreign worker was paid more than the American-counterpart).

I understand the general claim/controversy is that American workers are laid-
off and replaced with foreign workers who are paid less...lowering the wages
for American workers across the board. But there does not seem to be evidence
of that in this instance, just a "they took our jobs" attitude that the
foreign worker. Obviously there is a separate issue, in that it appears the
employer seems to have expressly stated that the worker's position was being
eliminated, but does not appear to be accurate, I am just curious why focus on
the _foreign_ aspect.

~~~
existencebox
Here's a hypothesis, although I don't have the data to back it up:

When you bring foreign workers in, you have to train them, teach them skills,
work culture, etc, that local workers already have.

I would assume this leads to a situation where the job market simply becomes
more saturated. Even if H1B regulations require giving above the prevailing
wage, over the long term, job market saturation will suppress wage growth
through more contention for limited positions, and they may in fact be saving
themselves money by paying the higher wages to essentially "Water down the
soup"

------
kailuowang
The truth is that the demand for technologists across all industries is so
high right now that an increase in H1B visa quota brought very little impact
to the overall supply demand in the current job market. Look around, is it any
easier to high developers now?

What's sad about it though, is that, given the reputation of these out-
sourcing companies such as Infosys, I am not too confident in the
qualification of the tech people they imported. Worse, these companies are so
good taking advantage of the loopholes in the H1B application process that
they actually hurt the chance of people with really qualifications.

~~~
beamatronic
Speaking of the application process, are H1Bs ever denied by the government?
Does the current process put the burden of proof on the government to show
that yes, there are in fact US workers who could do this job?

~~~
parennoob
> Does the current process put the burden of proof on the government to show
> that yes, there are in fact US workers who could do this job?

No, it puts the burden of proof on the employer. My employer had to submit
about 600 pages of paperwork to show that yes, they did look around a lot
before hiring me (including records of applications by candidates). I have no
idea how the outsourcing firms get away with that.

~~~
Eridrus
> I have no idea how the outsourcing firms get away with that.

They make job descriptions that only the immigrant worker could possibly fill,
e.g. they demand that they have _all_ the niche skills a candidate has that
could possibly apply to the role, they demand that candidates are willing to
work for the same pay in the same location and they do their best to advertise
the position in places people won't look, like physical newspapers.

I also find that the prevailing wage information for software engineers is
very low, at least when I've seen it on my own LCA forms it's been a lot lower
than what I'm getting paid and I can easily see how other companies could
abuse the process.

------
jalopy
To me, this doesn't look as horrible as the article makes it out to be.

I get a ~90 day notice that my job is ending, during which time I continue to
work the same hours and have time to apply to other positions inside and
outside of Disney.

After that, if I don't have a job w/in Disney and separation occurs I get 10%
of my annual salary. That's 5.2 weeks severance.

Am I missing something in the numbers?

There is certainly an emotional aspect to "training your replacements", but it
does seem like Disney is trying to do right by employees and shareholders at
the same time. Better balancing act than I've seen at most places.

~~~
jodah
> To me, this doesn't look as horrible as the article makes it out to be. > Am
> I missing something in the numbers?

Whether it's horrible or not, the point of the article is that Disney (via
it's subcontractor) is violating the H1B program by using it to directly
replace workers at a lower wage.

~~~
jobu
There was a bit of hyperbole in the beginning of the article about H1B
workers, but at the bottom the author adds this:

 _" But Disney directly employs fewer than 10 H-1B workers, executives said,
and has not been prominent in visa lobbying."_

~~~
jodah
That's referencing the H1Bs that Disney employs directly. This article
involves hiring a company to import replacement workers on Disney's behalf.
They don't need to be prominent in Visa lobbying since they can just hire
companies who are, and possibly skirt legal responsibility for their misuse of
the H1B program in the process. It's a win for the corporation and a loss for
their American workers.

~~~
jobu
Interesting, I hadn't caught that when I read through it the first time:

 _" Many American companies use H-1B visas to bring in small numbers of
foreigners for openings demanding specialized skills, according to official
reports. But for years most top recipients of the visas have been outsourcing
or consulting firms based in India, or their American subsidiaries, which
import workers for large contracts to take over entire in-house technology
units — and to cut costs. The immigrants are employees of the outsourcing
companies."_

They don't really say how many H1B workers are employed through Disney's
contractors, but it's definitely implied

------
parennoob
As an Indian and an H1B myself who is compensated decently (1.8 times
prevailing wage) -- I hate these companies since they lead to us being
stigmatised as a group. I'm sure my coworkers are going to read this article
today and point at me and say "Ugh, there's my H1B replacement.", even though
I'm like one of two H1Bs at x00 employee company.

Ultimately, this leads back to the fact that the US has a large number of laws
which are not enforced in reality. If these companies are breaking the law so
badly (and they probably are, the top 7 or so companies using H1B are Infosys
and other outsourcing firms) -- why don't employees go ahead and sue them?
They are (presumably) incorporated in the US after all, it's not like they are
untouchable.

This is also an excellent case for H1B reform. If a green card was a necessary
condition of employing an H1B, these tech companies would have a much harder
time retaining their lower paid employees, and the cost of "outsourcing in the
US" as it were, would be prohibitive.

~~~
dkrich
>> If these companies are breaking the law so badly (and they probably are,
the top 7 or so companies using H1B are Infosys and other outsourcing firms)
-- why don't employees go ahead and sue them?

Lawsuits are extremely expensive and when you are butting heads with some of
the largest corporations in the world, your odds of prevailing are pretty much
nil. The only hope of overcoming those kinds of odds is for the government to
get involved.

------
ameza
So many things wrong about this move by Disney. Terrible to see Julian Castro
pushing for H1B increase. I hope the technology sector worker takes heed.
Silicon Valley, Wall Street, and all corporations are out to keep wages low
using whatever legal means possible, even illegal as the Steve Jobs/Eric
Schmidt agreements show. $100K+ salaries is too much for the 1% and their
investors to sustain so they'll bring in the foreign workers through these
visas to replace 40+ year-old tech workers (age discrimination?). The federal
government doesn't care. It is too busy trying to work out the TPP which no
doubt, is another win for these corporations. The tech sector workers need to
unite to maintain the gains they have made. The last time Americans had access
to this quality of life was working for manufacturing plants. Unions helped
maintain that lifestyle until over time, the 1% removed those protections and
unions started dying off. Once again, we have an opportunity to maintain a
high quality of life but we need to unionize. If you hate the word union, then
use community. We need to form a community of tech sector workers to protect
our gains. We cannot let these corporations get away with this without us
making a move. Show or not, Gawker writers know that bloggers are easily
replaceable what with all the English majors American universities are
churning out each year. To protect their jobs, it makes sense to unionize.
There's no reason why a 30-something year-old writer should live with the fear
that any day, a fresh out of college individual can easily take over.

------
cdnsteve
I for one won't be taking the family to Disney after reading this article,
brutal. How do you measure how happy people are in your theme parks if they're
on the street? Voice your concerns with your wallets and with local
politicians. This is wrong on so many levels.

------
jeo1234
The exact thing happened in Canada a while ago with RBC.
[http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/rbc-
replaces-...](http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/rbc-replaces-
canadian-staff-with-foreign-workers-1.1315008)

Kicked off a major firestorm here, which ultimately lead the government to
change the way the foreign worker program functions.

------
hwstar
I would have given two weeks notice as soon as they tried to pull this off. If
they escorted me out the door as soon as I gave notice, so be it. In America,
the land of "employment at will", the only way to stack the deck in your favor
is to have "fuck you" money in the bank. This counters the effects of
employment at will and turns it to your advantage.

~~~
mcguire
I saw an article on Reddit yesterday claiming that 47% of Americans would have
to sell something or seek a loan to pay $400 in unexpected expenses. (I didn't
actually read it, of course, so I'm not sure if "loan" is a credit card.)

~~~
hwstar
You have just described the weakness of the American populace. They
deliberately don't teach people in public schools to work towards financial
independence, that would be bad for the oligarchy.

------
dudul
I would love to know Paul Graham's reaction to this story. H1Bs are a f-ing
scam. There is _no_ shortage of tech talent, there is a shortage of companies
willing to pay for said talent.

And stop talking about H1B holders as "immigrants". They are not. H1B is a
non-immigrant visa.

~~~
parennoob
> H1B is a non-immigrant visa.

This is somewhat misleading -- H1B is a non-immigrant visa with dual intent
([http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dual_intent](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dual_intent)),
which includes the immigrant intent.

~~~
dudul
You should read the article. H1Bs are _not_ immigrants but they are allowed to
try to become immigrants while in the US. The process to get permanent
residency is _not_ any different between someone who has an H1B and someone
who is oversea (ie finding someone to file a petition, either a spouse or a
company). The only difference is that the H1B can live and work in the US
during the process.

~~~
parennoob
> H1Bs are not immigrants but they are allowed to try to become immigrants
> while in the US.

And a lot of them do, so your point about them "not being immigrants" is
largely moot.

Yes, there are some people who come here with no desire to stay, but they have
been in the minority since around 1492.

~~~
dudul
"And a lot of them do" mind providing a source? Getting a green card is
extremely difficult, so I don't think that a lot of them do.

"Yes, there are some people who come here with no desire to stay, but they
have been in the minority since around 1492."

Good old fashion American exceptionalism. Who wouldn't want to stay in the
good Ol' US of A?! 'Murica Fuck Yeah right?

------
pilsetnieks
The writer could have done a better job concealing their sources — the people
who spoke on the condition of anonymity could still be easily identified by
the information (age, skills) listed in the article.

~~~
toomuchtodo
They weren't identified by name, and potential employers won't know their age
until they're hired on and have to provide it for benefits.

Disney's legal department would probably prevent anyone from revealing names
based on the information presented, to prevent expensive lawsuits (which, if
they were to occur, might wipe out any savings they're realizing from their
unethical behavior).

Stay classy Disney.

~~~
pilsetnieks
Well, the article said they spoke on the condition of anonymity so as to
prevent retaliation from Disney. And Disney already has their data.

------
pasbesoin
I went through a round of this (elsewhere). Not to focus specifically on
India, but in my case I was asked to train two Indians. Over the course of a
couple of months, they proved unable to effectively do the job. But, budget
and power relationships often win out over effectively doing the job.
Especially in a larger company, where any blame for resulting declines in
productivity or outright failure, gets spread around to the point where those
responsible for the decision are not adversely affected.

I also saw the latter with some of my domestic colleagues. For a while, I
would step into the gap and ensure that things were corrected.

With the benefit of experience and hindsight, I would do things differently.
Learn to pro-actively walk away from such circunstances, as soon as you can.
The longer you stay, the more you contribute to the success of those making
such policy and the more you risk trapping yourself in the results.

------
jfuhrman
Isn't this at will employment? Companies can ask any employee to take the
trash out or even clean up the kitchen(barring physical disabilities and
strength). If you refuse they can fire you, same as you can quit anytime for
any reason or no reason.

~~~
geebee
I don't really think H1B workers can be considered at will workers. The
company usually retains the right to fire the worker at will, but H1B workers
have limited rights to remain in the US should they leave their jobs without a
new sponsor lined up.

US citizens and permanent residents can change jobs freely, drop out of the
work force, go back to school, transition to a new career, and so forth, all
without jeopardizing their right to live and work in the US. While H1B workers
do have some rights to change jobs, their mobility is considerably more
limited.

You don't have to be especially cynical to believe that the very one-sided
nature of the "at-will" relationship here, along with the high stakes for the
employee (if you can't get a new job with a new sponsor, you will have to
leave the country), is huge part of the appeal of these visas.

~~~
hwstar
H1B employees are "at-will", and even in a more precarious situation with a
sword of Damocles hanging by a thread over their heads. If they quit, they get
sent back to their home country unless they arranged in advance for a
different employer to sponsor them. If they are terminated, or laid off, they
get sent back to their home country. It's fucked.

~~~
s73v3r
But they're not at will, as they don't have the "benefits" that everyone says
being at will brings the employees.

------
eyeareque
A major problem I see with H1-B workers is that they are basically held
captive by their employment. If they are let go they'll either have to find
another H1-B role at a different company or they will be sent back to their
home country. This control companies have over them basically will cause a
foreigner to work harder, accept less pay, and also refrain from making
complaints against their employers. It's no wonder that US companies like
Disney and others abuse the H1-B system.

------
miralabs
I think this is now common. I did the same thing to our replacement after I
was laid off. My last 2 weeks with the company was in India doing a face to
face training/handover.

~~~
jodah
But that's different than having your replacement come here, to US soil, to
sit in your exact chair as your replacement on an H1B. Whether you find this
offensive or not, it's a clear violation of the intent of the H1B program as
the sole purpose here is to drive down labor costs.

~~~
jnbiche
Maybe it's different legally, but ethically it's the same thing.

~~~
rwallace
No, there is a very big ethical difference. The company that outsources to
India isn't telling any lies about what it's doing. The company that replaces
domestic workers with H1B immigrants - using a law whose stated purpose was to
supply workers when nobody with the appropriate skills could be found
domestically - is basing its actions on lies and corruption from the ground
up.

~~~
rhino369
The article isn't clear, but it sounds like what is happening is that Disney
is outsourcing their IT jobs to a 3rd party contractor. That contractor has
H1Bs on staff.

Otherwise, hiring an H1B to replace an employee is illegal, but this is sort
of a loophole.

------
petea
I find mainstream hostility towards skilled workers really interesting because
if you had replaced this group of people with any other group of people like
women or other ethnic minorities, you can really start to see how outright
hostile people are.

If you actually take the maxim of fairness and equality seriously, skilled
foreign workers are by far the most unfairly discriminated group of people.
Much more than blacks and women who are supposedly discriminated against in
tech. Unlike women and blacks, skilled foreign workers actually have the
government with arbitrary set of standards to determine who can work and who
can't.

Another part of the immigration story that's fascinating is illegal immigrant
stories are almost always come with some sob story to make readers feel
empathic towards them. Such stories are almost never told with skilled
immigrants.

~~~
oh_sigh
I don't think anyone is hostile towards the workers themselves. It seems more
like they are hostile towards disney and the in-sourcing firm which pulled
this off. The entire point of H-1B visas is to fill positions when Americans
can't be found to do the work. How they can pull off laying off an entire
department and replacing them with H-1Bs is very confusing to me. I'd love to
hear an explanation for it. What loophole are they using?

~~~
sanderjd
I imagine it is the classic loophole of "ask forgiveness rather than
permission", which when talking about corporations becomes "take calculated
risks based on the likelihood of having a suit brought against you, the
probability you would lose such a suit, and the cost if you do". For a big
company like Disney, mistreating a department of IT workers is very unlikely
to be costly.

On the other hand, it does seem like there should be a regulatory body taking
action on this sort of abuse, and I'm curious if anyone knows more about that.

------
makmanalp
I think this would be less of a story if the replacements were not Indian.

Employees get fired all the time for being too senior, too wise to their
rights and too expensive (even if that is not the stated reason), and in large
companies entire divisions are often laid off and replaced by managed service
providers and consultants that'll do the job for less.

This is just the horrible reality of employment in the US - the H-1B system
has many faults, but that's not the cause here, the cause is the company
itself.

You can see this in every field - employer loyalty is at a low, full time
workers get hired on a part time basis, workers get rotated regularly, people
get fired so they don't qualify for seniority, hours get shifted to comply
with the bare minimum of labor law, etc.

Disclaimer: I'm on an H-1B.

\-----

edit: Clarification: My first sentence should have been "if the replacements
were American". Prevailing opinion seems to be that Americans losing jobs to
foreigners is unfair, but no one bats an eyelid at Americans losing jobs to
Americans - it's just capitalism.

I wasn't really going for the blatant racism angle, even though there is quite
a bit of that too at the lower levels of the discourse pile.

~~~
angrylinuxer
> if the replacements were not Indian.

You hit the nail on the head. Would there be these many complaints if the
replacements were Canadians? Nope. Would there be many complaints if the
replacements were English? Nope. Would there be many complaints if the
replacements were Aussies. Nope.

Would there be many complaints if the replacements were Mexicans? Yes.

What's common between Mexico and India? What ever could it be?

~~~
shanemhansen
Seriously? How about their average
wage?[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_average_wa...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_average_wage)

To save you the trouble of clicking on the link:

    
    
      US: $3,263
      Canada: $2,724
      Australian: $2,610
      UK: $3,065
      Mexico: $609
      India: $295

------
ma2rten
Am I the only one, who feels like there is something odd about this article?

 _250 Disney employees were told [...] that they would be laid off._

Is it really big news that 250 were laid off?

 _Over the next three months, some Disney employees were required to train
their replacements to do the jobs they had lost._

What does it mean to train your replacement for a software engineer? Did they
teach them how to write code? 3 Month is not enough time for that. Did they
explain how their existing code works? That would be quite a normal thing, but
3 month is really long for that.

 _" because of his superior skills and “outstanding” work, he had saved the
company thousands of dollars"_

The average software engineer should be able to save a company hundreds of
thousands of dollars, not thousands, provided they are given the right
resources. If he only saved the company thousands of dollars and did not
generate new revenue, that explains why he was laid off.

 _His résumé lists a top-level skill certification and command of seven
operating systems, 15 program languages [...] “I was forced into early
retirement,”_

If he was really so skilled, why did he not find another position at Disney or
elsewhere?

~~~
phlyingpenguin
_If he was really so skilled, why did he not find another position at Disney
or elsewhere?_

Agism is a real thing. Maybe he couldn't.

~~~
hwstar
This is exactly what happened in my situation. I'm 54. I was laid off in
November 2015 after 25+ years of service at on company. Even though I send out
several responses to job posts, I get no responses. Fortunately, I'm
financially independent due to saving and investing religiously.

Lesson for all you younger professionals: Save and become financially
independent. You will never know exactly when they come for you during a round
of layoffs. If you are older than 40, watch out. You are likely on their list.

------
stevewepay
This has been going on since the dot com bust. My friend had to train his
offshore replacement at his company. He did things like train them saying one
thing in the morning, and then say the exact opposite thing in the afternoon.
The replacement workers would mention the conflict that but he would insist
they were wrong. This went on for a month or so until the training period was
over.

~~~
shanemhansen
I think that's hilarious. People get so caught up in "acting professional". A
company can be as shady and immoral as they want to be. They can lie and cheat
people their employees out of money, and the common advice to employees is
"act professional", "don't burn bridges".

If your company is sticking it to you, sticking it back to them is a perfectly
valid choice (although not one I'd take, I'm more the ride off into the sunset
type).

------
klochner
The real problem is that workers negotiate salaries as part of their H1B.

A better system would allocate H1Bs to the most talented foreign workers and
let them choose their own employer here in the US, negotiating a market rate
salary if they so choose.

~~~
bdavisx
How about that the companies applying for H1Bs list the salaries they will be
paying, and the highest paying 85,000 (or however many per year) are the ones
that are awarded.

------
arelangi
The article fails to mention that for the H1-B application a Labor Condition
Application(LCA) has to be filed, which explicitly states that the employer
will

"Pay the nonimmigrant workers at least the local prevailing wage or the
employer's actual wage, whichever is higher; pay for non-productive time in
certain circumstances; and offer benefits on the same basis as for U.S.
workers;"[1]

Full disclosure: I'm on a H1-B and paid way more than the local prevailing
wage for my position.

[1]
[http://www.dol.gov/compliance/guide/h1b.htm](http://www.dol.gov/compliance/guide/h1b.htm)

~~~
Eridrus
Prevailing wage info is kind of bullshit though.

You can claim people are a level 1 computer programmer, and the prevailing
wage is 65k:
[http://www.flcdatacenter.com/OesQuickResults.aspx?area=41884...](http://www.flcdatacenter.com/OesQuickResults.aspx?area=41884&code=15-1131&year=15&source=1)

I've been through the visa process a few times at different companies, and
it's pretty clear that even employers who are not "taking jobs away from US
workers" are sticking to the letter of the law and not the spirit, since the
goal is to get that candidate a visa. Microsoft would tell all of the green
card applicants not to worry about PERM certification since MS needed so many
people that if they found an equally qualified candidate, they would hire that
candidate too, but when you see how things get crafted it's clear that company
lawyers will do all they can to reduce the likelihood of there being any
qualified applicants.

------
stegosaurus
I kind of have the attitude (and have exercised this in the past) that if my
employer oversteps the bounds in such a ridiculous way, the contract becomes
meaningless at that point.

It is, at the end of the day, paper with words on it.

The idea that this could affect future prospects is true, but only in a sort
of vague way that doesn't really matter.

Imagine that a company works you to death and eventually you just can't turn
up any more. Does it make sense to worry about references then? Do you ever
want to work for such a company again, or even for someone who respects them?
I wouldn't.

------
jodah
The H1B program is very clearly NOT meant to be a mechanism for importing
workers to swap directly into existing jobs at lower pay. This is the crucial
point of the article and of Disney's wrongdoing.

~~~
hga
From where I'm sitting, having worked with someone here on an H1-B visa in
2001 at Lucent _who was more qualified for the job than I_ who was paid $45K
to my $80K, as someone who has acquaintances at e.g. HP who were laid off
along with a bunch of other older employees, who then found HP advertising for
an H1-B replacement for his job, I'd say it's very clear that this is
_exactly_ one of the things the mechanism is intended for, given the number of
visas issued each year and the constant proposals to drastically increase
them. It's telling that Ted Cruz, the best for reducing immigration Republican
candidate for President in the 2016 election, wants to increase H1-Bs to 300K
a year (everyone else in both parties wants to open the floodgates to all).

~~~
jodah
> I'd say it's very clear that this is exactly one of the things the mechanism
> is intended for

Actually, no. The fundamental requirement of the H1B program is that workers
be paid the prevailing wage. The only way that's possible is for replacement
workers to be paid the same as those they replaced, which isn't what happens.

------
josephjrobison
"A limited number of the visas, 85,000, are granted each year, and they are in
hot demand. Technology giants like Microsoft, Facebook and Google repeatedly
press for increases in the annual quotas, saying there are not enough
Americans with the skills they need."

If Microsoft, Facebook, and Google are speaking the truth then wouldn't they
be keen to pick up the talent being dismissed by Disney and Edison? Understand
that someone monitoring ticketing tech at Disney World is different from a
mobile software engineer but there must be some overlap.

~~~
shanemhansen
The standard answer is that there are not enough Americans with the skills
they need willing to work _for the wages they 'd like to pay_. Ideally (for
employees) the inability to hire people at salary X would be a market signal
that employers need to offer more money. The H1-B program is designed not to
interfere with that signal, but it's widely believed that companies give lip
service to the law and hire cheaper workers anyways.

------
CodeWriter23
There's a reason employees refer to it as "Mouschwitz"

------
liamacton
10% severance of annual pay seems to be very low for an employee of 10 years.
Is this normal in America? In Europe, in my experience, your severance gets
larger the longer you have worked there. So for 10 years, something like
5-6months+ of pay would be what I'd expect.

*Edit - According to the UK Government, the statutory redundancy (severance) pay in the UK for a worker of 10 years would be 15 weeks pay at a maximum of £464 which equates to about £7k $10k. Obviously this is only the statutory level.

~~~
hwstar
American companies don't have to pay any severance pay. Some do to get you to
sign a non-disparagement, and no solicitation (don't poach my employees after
I've laid you off) contract to get a pitifully small severance package.
American employment law is on par with 3rd world countries. Most first world
countries have better employee protections (worker tribunals, statutory
severance, statutory vacation, etc.)

------
scintill76
> Disney executives said that the layoffs were part of a reorganization, and
> that the company opened more positions than it eliminated.

And do all those positions collectively get paid more than what they used to?
To a certain extent, I imagine you can hire a greater number of cheap workers
who collectively can muddle through the job, but still cost less.

There's something disturbing about the "job creation!" moral trump card, when
the same act is destroying or at least hurting other lives and careers.

------
murbard2
It sounds terrible, but what's much, much worse is living in India. Sanitation
is dreadful, salaries are low, and a corrupt bureaucracy ensures things stay
that way.

So the NYT is opposing a practice which makes very poor people much better
off, and makes much wealthier people a little worse off - unlike their Indian
counterparts, they do not need to jump through hoops to get a visa and work at
some other job - all on the basis of where those people were born. Classy.

~~~
mcguire
I'm a little unclear on this: by "makes much wealthier people a little worse
off" do you mean the American tech workers, who were most likely middle class
before their wages were pushed down by competition from India, or the much
wealthier management of Disney, who in my opinion are actually being made much
better off?

~~~
murbard2
The middle class workers are massively wealthier than their Indian
counterparts.

~~~
s73v3r
Which means fuck all in the context of what's going on.

------
agumonkey
In a similar vein, quite often I've seen manager asking people to train higher
paid newcomers, while performing as fast as usual with no added bonuses.

~~~
oh_sigh
Negotiate a higher salary then?

~~~
agumonkey
We tried that after a while, some got a tiny raise, still below the new
employee salary.

~~~
oh_sigh
Quit and find a higher paying job then? Why would the owner pay you more money
if you will accept a zero or small raise and keep working for them?

~~~
agumonkey
Hehe, what a cold view on things. Quitting is not always an option, you know
it, they know it.

~~~
oh_sigh
Because one couldn't find a job which actually pays the amount one desires?
What stops a person from looking for another job while continuing to work
their current job? It's not fun, but it certainly is possible.

~~~
agumonkey
Winning the lottery is also possible. You're borderline trolling.

~~~
oh_sigh
You're equating finding a different job from your current one to winning the
lottery?

~~~
agumonkey
I misread you, I thought you meant working two jobs, not working and searching
a new one.

------
seldonPlan
I feel like this article is a bit sensationalist and lacks the other side of
the story. I work for Disney IT, in the actual building pictured in the
article. The layoffs in question were the result of a restructuring where many
departments were shuffled and changed with an emphasis on new development
work. Many employee's were reassigned and transferred, along with those
employee's whose roles were removed. My understanding was that the purpose of
the restructuring was to put more new development in the hands of actual
company employee's with ongoing sustainment work shifted to the hands of
contracted employee's. Many of the roles that were shifted to contractors
included responsibilities for 24/7 call support and working general trouble
tickets.

I cant really speak to the visa status of the contracted employees (I know
that seems to be a lot of the focus of the comments in this thread). I do know
that many of the people that were impacted by this restructuring found roles
in other parts of the organization (which was mentioned in the article), many
doing active development work on other projects. These employees included a
wide range of ages and experience levels, so I really don't buy that agism was
part of this decision. I do not know what those employees ended up making in
the new roles, but I do have years of experience with the HR policies of this
company and would be very surprised if those employees weren't making at or
near their previous levels. With that said I really don't feel there were
significant financial gains to be had by shifting those 250 roles around. I
recently saw some internal figures showing that the number of non-contractor
Disney IT employees has actually gone up slightly in the past year. This could
be creative accounting statistics or it could be that there truly is not some
scheme to replace knowledgeable local employees with less knowledgeable out-
sourced employees as the article suggests. My experience and gut says the
latter is more likely than the former, but that is my own opinion. I wont
speculate on the disposition of the employees that are truly displaced and out
of a job as a result of this restructuring, but I do feel for them, and hope
for the best for them.

I've been in my IT role with Disney for only a few years (I have many more
years in non-IT roles), but for me, I like the emphasis on actual development,
and less on ongoing sustainment. I personally don't feel like my role or those
around me are at risk of being replaced by an out-sourced team. I also work
closely with some of the "managed services" folks, and appreciate that they
will be handling the monitoring and calls in the wee hours while I get to
create cool stuff during the day.

Disclaimer: I by no means speak for Disney or it's IT department. This is all
my personal observation and opinions.

~~~
gaius
_I personally don 't feel like my role or those around me are at risk of being
replaced by an out-sourced team_

Neither did they. Good luck.

~~~
seldonPlan
Actually I would hope they did feel their roles might be at risk given they
had 90 days notice for the actual layoff plus many prior notifications in the
months leading up to those last 90 days about the change in direction the
department was taking.

I really don't understand the tone in comments from this whole thread in
general. Many companies, large and small, make decisions that result in a
change of direction or focus. The results of those changes may mean that some
of roles are no longer needed. Is it inherently negative for an IT group to
say they want to focus on new development and not sustainment? Is it because
out-sourcing is "bad"? Is it because Disney is a large corporation and
"enterprise" has such a negative connotation?

I honestly want to understand this better, because I don't get why there is
_so_ much negativity around this.

~~~
gaius
Because the roles obviously _were_ needed. Did you read the article? And they
did _not_ know, one guy was even given a raise just before.

------
powerotter
H1Bs are abused at the large companies as well. I work for eBay and the
company regularly turns a blind eye to American candidates in favor of hiring
an H1B. The company has had high attrition this past year. During one meeting
where a consultant met with our team (80% H1Bs), I called out that many of the
company culture problems people raise come up from the fact that managers know
they can boss around H1Bs without consequence. Many of my co-workers finally
chimed in and agreed. It was this unspoken reality that H1B employees will
never tell a manager or director that this is a short-sighted technology
decision. After the meeting a few came up to me and remarked they were
bewildered I understood their predicament. They disagree with many of the
things they are asked to do and want to do better for the company, but they
are essentially wage slaves trying to stay in America until they can achieve
citizenship. Moving to a new company within 5 years starts the whole
citizenship cycle over again too, so they are a less mobile workforce.

Even on simple things like open floor plans, common working hours, scrum/agile
methodologies, when an H1B employee is asked for feedback they will offer no
real opinion. It has a large impact on the work culture.

Some of my co-workers are great friends. I would love for them to be citizens
here, but I cannot help but resent the H1B program to the point where I will
now scan companies for how many H1Bs are working there. I want to be a part of
a work culture that does not treat its employees like hourly wage slaves. I
would prefer they are granted full citizenship so that their lower bargaining
rights do not affect mine. Not only do I have H1B friends who feel their d

Someone earlier mentioned that Indians get a bad wrap in Silicon Valley. I'll
just throw in that even amongst my Indian friends it is a well-accepted fact
that there is a pattern of strong in-group preferences among Indians in hiring
practices, office politics, and inter-worker relations.
Racial/cultural/religious groups that have strong in-group preferences in
diverse settings such as large corporations will tend to get a bad rap.

Amongst Stanford, IVY, etc friends the common comeback to this conversation is
that I should start my own company to avoid being an employee. All agree being
an employee is a precarious position in America unless you are at one of the
top 3 tech companies, but even for those companies, they only need to retain
and keep happy their best workers during the high growth phases. The divide is
that amongst my friends who have raised $10-30mm seed rounds, they all came
from very wealthy backgrounds to begin with. Middle and lower class Americans
friends are pursuing my path as well, building up savings and a personal
safety net for first 5-10 years out of college because we see how greatly in
debt our parents are. The wealthy love the H1B program because it is
completely beneficial for them that America has a wage slave system, and
they'll never have to be on the other end of the stick.

Outside of engineering, the other roles in companies like eBay that I see
where cheap foreign replacement is less of a risk and native Americans are
valued are product managers. An MBA is an unspoken prerequisite for that role,
and again, I only know of wealthy friends obtaining MBAs. Even a friend who
has Harvard MBA stated, "an MBA is worthless, it's basically an extended
networking party for rich kids."

~~~
Eridrus
It's interesting, I'm on an E-3 visa, being young and full of myself, I never
really worried about being fired since getting a new job seemed pretty easy,
and while the visa process is a disaster, I have yet to be turned away. I've
had to return to Australia once, and stayed in canada for a while due to visa
issues and it's always been stress inducing, but I feel like I can deal with
it if it comes to it.

On the flip side, my current work tried to convert me to a H1-B since they
thought it would be easier to get me a green card from there, and that has
been a complete clusterfuck with the lottery where we waited months and my
petition wasn't even selected.

------
jarsin
But...but..there is currently some mythical god programmer stuck in india that
could make investors billions if only we had a more open h1b visa program...

Nah these programs are never ever abused in any way shape or form by company
management.

------
cosmolev
In Europe (particularly in Italy) such consulting firms bring workers with
business travel visas, keep them working for 3 month and then substitute the
whole team with fresh one. The story repeats after 3 month.

No H1Bs needed.

~~~
hga
That's our L-1 visa
([https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L-1_visa](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L-1_visa))
and it too is abused.

~~~
cosmolev
As I understand L-1 visa holders do pay taxes in US, which is not the case for
business travel visa holders.

------
lone_hermit
Thank you Obama for renegading on every single promise. The only thing Obama
would be sad about is why only 250 and not 25000 TPP might solve that too

------
moron4hire
This is part of the reason why I freelance. I get to say, "bite me, it's not
in my contract."

------
lone_hermit
what we need is for the senaors to work on the minimum pay and no additional
income allowed! things will change overnight

------
saganus
Wow... how insulting.

This ought to be illegal, no?

------
rwmj
This article is framed as a scare-story about visas/immigrants, but what does
it really have to do with visas or immigrants? Imagine the workers stayed in
India, were trained using videoconferencing and worked remotely. It would be
exactly the same situation for the US employees.

~~~
GuiA
Mmh, did you read the article? It clearly has to do with visas, as the Disney
workers would likely still be employed if those H1Bs hadn't been granted.

It's absolutely not the same as outsourcing - if Disney could have outsourced
the jobs, it would have by now. But these positions likely require physical
proximity to the Disney theme park.

This is the ugly side of H1Bs - while Facebook, Google, et al. are using them
in a way that (plausibly) doesn't hurt American employment, and are
legitimately in need of more slots, that's not the case for the main H1B
players (Infosys, HCL, etc), who are just gaming the system to maximize
revenues.

~~~
rwmj
Yes, I read the article. My point is that cracking down on visas or
immigration won't make any difference long term. The internet makes physical
proximity not so important, and it will only get less and less important over
time.

~~~
dkrich
Based on your optimism, I suspect that you've never worked on or managed a
project of significance using outsourced employees.

Just a few of the realities that you will face if and when you do so:

1) A 12+ hour time difference. I recall nightly conference calls that started
at 10pm. If you are somebody who values your time, you will find this
untenable. Just use Slack or Basecamp to touch base? See #2:

2) Complete inconsistency in skill and communication ability. It was almost
the norm to wake up in the morning and check for the changes we expected to be
in place while the outsourced team worked overnight only to be shocked at the
lack of progress. One question about a particular detail of the assigned task
would bring the work to a screeching halt and we wouldn't find out about it
until the next day. We would answer the question (usually inconsequential) and
the progress would resume (far behind schedule). In many other cases, work was
just done incorrectly and we had to spend the day course-correcting.

3) Lack of talent. After all, the workers who qualify for H1-B's are a self-
selecting group who are, by definition, identified as the most talented
employees. There is no guarantee that their counterparts who stayed home are
able to do the job properly. In my experience most employees were sub-par, as
one would expect when they are willing to work for pennies on the dollar
compared to a U.S. citizen or somebody on an H1-B.

~~~
rwmj
While I don't work with outsourced employees, I _do_ work in a completely
remote team, and we use only email, IRC and video conferencing. In fact I had
a meeting at 11pm just last night (not too bad for me, but for my colleagues
in Israel and Australia who were also on the call it was some unearthly hour
of the morning).

I think many of your points could be summarized as "we hired a bunch of idiots
and they couldn't do their job very well". Timezones made some difference in
that you weren't able to closely supervise them, but the fundamental problem
was that your management shouldn't have outsourced the work to people not
capable of doing the job.

~~~
dkrich
Working with a remote team on a SaaS application != outsourcing enterprise-
level work to overseas employees.

With a small remote team you have the luxury of carefully choosing remote
candidates and interviewing them individually. Enterprise-level work (read,
bringing on teams of 10-50 developers in a short time frame) does not afford
you that opportunity.

I'm not sure how large your company is, but it's pretty apparent you haven't
worked with outsourced employees on an enterprise-level (7-8 figure) project
before.

