
U.S. announces first criminal charges against foreign country for cyberspying - Rogerh91
http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/us-to-announce-first-criminal-charges-against-foreign-country-for-cyberspying/2014/05/19/586c9992-df45-11e3-810f-764fe508b82d_story.html
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jeremymcanally
The point that most of you are missing is that the NSA's intelligence
gathering activity and activities of that class are completely unrelated to
these charges. They are being charged with _economic_ hacking activities.
Trade secrets were being lifted and handed to Chinese companies. An analog
would be like the NSA harvesting data from Samsung and then passing it to
Apple, which is the type of stuff that we have no evidence of thus far.
Regardless of your feelings on the NSA's actions, this isn't the same type of
"all countries hack each other" activity.

And if you think metal and solar companies are the only one suffering these
sorts of attacks, you're crazy. I think it's just that the other victims don't
want to be named publicly for a variety of reasons. This sort of activity is a
serious problem, but you can't just file charges all willy-nilly. Fortunately
the U.S. already had economic actions in motion through resolution channels
pertaining to the dumping of solar tech, so it makes this sort of thing much
easier to do I think.

~~~
anon1385
>An analog would be like the NSA harvesting data from Samsung and then passing
it to Apple, which is the type of stuff that we have no evidence of thus far.

What ?

We've known that the NSA was engaging in corporate espionage on behalf of
American corporations for a long time now and the American government doesn't
even deny it:
[http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/820758.stm](http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/820758.stm)
(from 2000)

>The journalist, who has spent much of his life investigating Echelon, has
offered two alleged instances of US snooping in the 1990s, which he says
followed the newly-elected Clinton administration's policy of "aggressive
advocacy" for US firms bidding for foreign contracts. The first came from a
Baltimore Sun report which said the European consortium Airbus lost a $6bn
contract with Saudi Arabia after NSA found Airbus officials were offering
kickbacks to a Saudi official. The paper said the agency "lifted all the faxes
and phone-calls between Airbus, the Saudi national airline and the Saudi
Government" to gain this information. Mr Campbell also alleges that the US
firm Raytheon used information picked up from NSA snooping to secure a $1.4bn
contract to supply a radar system to Brazil instead of France's Thomson-CSF.

>former CIA director James Woolsey, in an article in March for the Wall Street
Journal, _acknowledged that the US did conduct economic espionage against its
European allies_ , though he did not specify if Echelon was involved.

~~~
mikecb
That's not the same thing as stealing trade secrets and giving them to a
domestic company.

~~~
anon1385
The European Parliament report is here:
[http://www.europarl.europa.eu/sides/getDoc.do?pubRef=-//EP//...](http://www.europarl.europa.eu/sides/getDoc.do?pubRef=-//EP//NONSGML+REPORT+A5-2001-0264+0+DOC+PDF+V0//EN&language=EN)

Here is an example:

Who: NSA, What: Wind wheel for electricity generation, developed by Aloys
Wobben, an engineer from East Frisia, Aim: Forwarding of technical details of
Wobben's wind wheel to a US firm, Consequences: US firm patents the wind wheel
before Wobben; (breach of patent rights)

Sounds exactly like "stealing trade secrets and giving them to a domestic
company" to me.

~~~
mikecb
I couldn't find the original source "Aktenkriegerì, SZ, 29 March 2001", but it
sounds like a news report. If you can find the source, I would be happy to
read it and judge it based upon its reported sources.

~~~
eliteraspberrie
The European Parliament report cites a single journalist, Nicky Hager. This
particular allegation was based on interviews with anonymous French
intelligence sources.

Basically, the French government selectively leaked to a New Zealand
journalist, to justify retaliation (tariffs at the EU level, which never
materialized) against the US government for burning their Saudi deal.

There has never been any credible evidence that US intelligence agencies pass
trade secrets to American companies.

------
dmix
It's so strange seeing a person in full military outfit (and Chinese) on FBI's
"cyber" most wanted list:
[http://www.fbi.gov/wanted/cyber](http://www.fbi.gov/wanted/cyber)

When it pretty much has always been 20-something eastern-euro/Russian and the
odd middle eastern hacker.

~~~
jcromartie
Where? They might not be on that page anymore.

~~~
jcromartie
I swear there were no Chinese entries on that page the first time I looked...

------
candybar
For those who are calling the actions of the US "hypocritical" and others who
are indiscriminately defending the US by saying "but we didn't do this and
that" \- don't forget to distinguish between individuals and countries.

Those who are doing this in China are most likely not doing this for China -
they are taking advantage of state resources to benefit themselves and their
cronies. As much as they are stealing from the US, they are stealing from
their own citizens. This is good old-fashioned corruption.

The loop of corruption tends to be more subtle and longer in the US, but it's
also most likely the case many people who are engaged in espionage, corporate
or otherwise, are out for themselves and using the information, expenditures,
etc, to directly or indirectly benefit themselves.

Random people from China and France and the US arguing among themselves
pretending that the enemy is definitely the spying apparatus in the other
country and not their own and so on is kind of missing the point and worse,
doing exactly what the perpetrators want us to be doing. The discord between
nations, manufactured or not, is their raison d'etre - it's what keeps them
funded.

With that said, holding specific individuals responsible and make their lives
difficult is sounds pretty good to me. I wish this happened more often, for US
officials abusing their authority as well as foreign officials.

Edit: The point isn't that these people aren't employed by the Chinese
government, but that the end goal is almost certainly private gains. China
isn't some single unified entity where all government employees are working
tirelessly for "China" or in this case, to benefit corporate titans who are
much richer than they are - economic espionage on behalf of specific private
sector entities is almost certainly about some quid pro quo by which
government employees are monetizing their official capacity.

~~~
nichtich
This is exactly what I thought. Think about the organizational challenge and
the bureaucracy involved, there's no way for a "secret" spy unit's head to
evaluate the economic value of all those targets, select for the ones needed,
carry out the operation and distribute gained information to the corresponding
domestic parties. It must work in the opposite way: the military set up the
unit and recruited/trained the people for strategic missions like hacking
through US military and private contractors. In the process of doing this,
these people came across many other stuff, which they sell to other players
through black market or backroom dealings to compensate themselves over the
laughable salary they receive from the government. And I guess that's also how
they got caught in the first place.

Bottom line is this, for your Particular corporation to be really helped by
your government, there must be some corruption involved. I think this is true
everywhere, but especially true in China.

------
pdw
Nice timing, Cisco just sent Obama a letter complaining about NSA tampering...

[http://www.bbc.com/news/technology-27468794](http://www.bbc.com/news/technology-27468794)

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pasbesoin
I've yet to read up on this. But my initial reaction is: And zero
accountability for those responsible for the gross systems mismanagement that
too often enabled this activity.

I fear that security on the Internet is moving towards "rubber hose" security.
It's not about truly securing systems and processes; instead, physical means
will be used to intimidate and "punish".

And even then, it's not the truly responsible who are being intimidated. Nor,
in the current circumstance, are the physical measures directly effective.

Instead, we have propaganda. "Don't look at our mistakes and neglect. Spend
your anger and frustration on these foreign nationals, all conveniently framed
for maximum effect. And never mind that we (government as well as private
industry) do the same -- we're the 'good guys'."

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homulilly
I'd say this is an instance of the pot calling the kettle black but the US has
done far more than simply spy on foreign companies so calling it straight up
hypocrisy is a huge understatement.

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grymoire1
Magicians misdirect the audience using similar tactics.

This is the equivalent to a woman in a skimpy outfit walking around on the
stage, and bending over in a low-cut dress, while the magician switches one
object for another.

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kimdouglasmason
I wonder if the Chinese will charge a few Americans with something in
retaliation.

Standing on its own, this action is pointless. As part of a larger strategy to
provide evidence to justify future tariffs or sanctions, it would make sense.
My guess is that's where the US is heading with this.

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ant_sz
hmmm... before Snowden said it out we didn't know anything about what NSA is
doing, but at that time, the US government was always saying China is doing
what NSA is doing.

I was not accusing anything, but you see, the announcement is lack of
persuasion.

The spying game seems to be a zero-sum game. After charged china for spying
for business, the US government may find it won't have any effect, then the
best strategy will turns out to be doing the same. Think about the billions of
the dollars companies spend as political contribution.

After the war begins, It really doesn't matter who shot the first bullet.

~~~
AJ007
There is a lot of justifiable skepticism regarding spycraft. Read declassified
accounts of the cold war. What happened swings between delusional paranoia --
where the Soviets thought the US & UK were preparing for a pre-emptive nuclear
strike, to extremely serious, where the Soviets knew everything the US Navy
was doing for a year. At best a zero sum game, at worst, it creates situations
where wars start based on things that just aren't true.

Espionage is a bit different, but still a mess.

Presumably the only enforcement the US can take against those indicted here is
financial -- which would mean assets that fall within the US's control. How
does Beijing react?

The most interesting end effect of this could be the US's loss of criminal
enforcement on the global financial system, reversing much of the benefits of
post 9/11 anti-money laundering policy. Co-operation occurs when both sides
benefit. I suspect some people in the US State Dept are very annoyed today.

------
Havoc
No doubt said Chinese persons are distraught at the prospect of never being
able to visit Disneyland. Short of WWIII there isn't much way to enforce such
a verdict over foreigners on foreign soil.

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rayray
I wonder what the motivation is behind these charges. I have a hard time
believing this to be remotely comparable to what NSA is doing both in term of
technical capability and scale. I mean, ffs, these "military hackers" use
their initials in the aliases. (according to FBI's wanted page)

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Nanzikambe
Nice moral high ground there!

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andri
Well, as they say, best defense is a good offense.

~~~
tuan5
+1

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jacquesm
And this sort of thing is why you keep the moral high ground. Too bad, it
would have been an excellent case otherwise.

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rasz_pl
I didnt realize Keith B. Alexander was Chinese. Good job on bringing
appropriate charges and finally impeaching that bastard.

..oh wait

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deadfish
US Press Release - 'China are the bad guys and don't forget it!'

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madaxe_again
This just in: pot calls kettle black.

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etiam
Hypocrites.

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duaneb
When can we file criminal charges against the US government?

~~~
gress
At any court you like. It happens all the time.

~~~
duaneb
Sure, if they want to be sued.

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jokoon
in what court exactly ?

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Gonzih
Ironic. I guess.

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sschueller
Im surprised it isn't Russia they are going after. I guess the justice dept.
didn't get the memo.

