
Ask HN: I have just turned down my first contract. Am I an idiot? - hamtaroPhD06
I&#x27;m a new CS graduate and I started looking for a job.<p>I interviewed at a company in Paris, France, and the day after they proposed to me a &quot;non-negotiable&quot; contract that would have been around 1900 euros&#x2F;month (40 hours&#x2F;week).<p>After reading it I felt that they were not very honest about, paid leaves, bonuses and my exact role in the company.<p>I turned it down, but now I&#x27;m kind of starting to regret it since people are telling me that&#x27;s the kind of &quot;standard&quot; contracts right now.<p>What does HN think? If I get offered another similar contract should I take it?<p>PS: I don&#x27;t have an immediate money issue, I have some savings and my family is willing to support me.
======
DrNuke
Social skills at play here: send them a new e-mail asking for your exact
terms. You have seen the employer lowballing you and you feel trust is
severed, but it is gamesmanship. You need to practice and learn this
fundamental too, so no fear and no regret.

------
gtsteve
Whether or not that contract is acceptable or not is down to the local market
and the cost of living. I guess it depends where you live in Paris but when I
was there I found that my cost of living was roughly equal to London, and 1900
EUR/mo would be equal to roughly £20k/mo which is on the very low end of a
developer salary. In fact, 20k/mo was a low developer salary a few years ago
and perhaps you could only do entry-level testing for £20k/mo now. I feel that
even as a new graduate you can get quite a bit more than that.

But if you're happy to take a lower salary in exchange for some other perk
then that's OK. I took low salaries to work for start-ups for the first 4
years of my career and that worked out very well for me, as I was given a
higher level of responsibility than most companies and I now feel I am further
ahead than my peers.

A company should be able to be very specific about what it will offer you. If
not, it might be in the early stages and run by inexperienced people, which
can be either a good or bad thing depending on your career goals.

If in doubt, negotiate or reject. It sounds like you're in a comfortable
position anyway.

~~~
Avalaxy
£20k/mo which is on the very low end of a developer salary

Ehh, 20K stands for 20000. So you think 20000 GBP per MONTH is low?

~~~
gtsteve
Oh no, sorry. I meant £20,000 per year is a low salary for a developer in
London.

To give you an idea, I haven't hired a developer fresh out of university for
under £30,000 for years now.

------
yeasayer
Don't worry, you did the right thing.

1900 euros/month is peanuts. Even considering that you're fresh CS graduate,
you're worth more.

Also, the fact that the contract is "non-negotiable" is a huge red flag. This
company doesn't respect their employees. Trust me, you don't want to work in
the environment like that.

Keep looking for job, the market is huge, you'll definitely find something
decent.

~~~
Avalaxy
> the fact that the contract is "non-negotiable" is a huge red flag

Yes, but also because most employers in the CS field are simply not in the
position where they have the negotiating power. As a CS grad you get to pick
your employer, not the other way around.

------
afoot
Everything in your post tells me the same thing: Absolutely not.

Honesty is a huge deal in any employment situation. If you feel like that
before you even start, the likelihood is that it will only get worse.

If you have no immediate need for the money, take your time and find something
that feels right. You'll know it when you do.

------
bradknowles
I lived in Belgium for almost eight years, and my wife and I dealt with a
number of people throughout Europe over that time. We learned some rules of
thumb that are usually applicable to French people and French speakers, when
you are in negotiations with them.

First off, everything can always be renegotiated and brought back on the
table, regardless of how many times you think that some issue has been
permanently resolved.

So, nothing is ever really finalized there. Even if you get into a situation
that has to be taken to court, you can still negotiate anything at any time.
When they lock you up and throw away the key, that just changes who you
negotiate with. If you think you got a bad deal, you just need to get a lawyer
with a better reputation and suddenly the deal gets much better.

Second, everything is all about who you know, and did you go to the right
school. If not, then there's really not much hope for you to break through the
glass ceiling. Not unless you can find another way to get properly acquainted
with the right people who can introduce you to the next set of right people.

Third, the Workers Councils are extremely powerful. Whatever you do, don't get
on the wrong side of the workers councils. That means absolutely no overtime
allowed, don't take your work home with you, and don't even think about
annoying anyone who is on strike. And they will strike at the drop of a hat.

If things do go sideways for you at a job, the Workers Councils are your best
friend. Before any company fires anyone or does any layoffs, there are massive
documentation requirements the company has to go through, and in the case of
layoffs they have to notify the Workers Council at least a year in advance of
even beginning to prepare to take any action.

So, in your situation, I would be inclined to go back to them and see if they
can sweeten the deal to your liking. Everything should be on the table. You've
only seen their first offer so far.

Oh, and the work week over there is 35 hours per week, not 40. Seriously, do
not get the Workers Council pissed off at you by working a single minute per
week more than the legal amount.

~~~
hamtaroPhD06
I'm not French (though I studied in France) I think that's why companies think
that they can "push" me to sign without negotiation.

For the 35 hours, indeed the contract says that I'll need to work 35 in
standard pay, plus 5 hours with 10% bonus.

(They calculated the salary for 40 hours and not 35 ... Which seemed dishonest
to me)

------
eb0la
1900 Eur/Month ¿before or after taxes? There is a huge difference (1900 gross
will be about 1200-1400/month after taxes).

20k/yr is a average salary for a junir developer in Spain. 30-35k/yr for an
experienced one (5+ years). 35-45k for a manager.

The red flag for me is the lack of information about your role in the company.
This means peope in HR don't have a clue about what is going on. Probably
you'd be outsourced to a client (a sign of the non-negotiable money amount).

~~~
hamtaroPhD06
1900 and change after taxes.

Indeed it is indeed for another company (client). I would have been dispatched
to a French telco operator as a developer/engineer.

~~~
eb0la
Telcos are very hard places to live today.

16-18 years ago money was flowing in without stop and now it's the oppossite.

I would go to a telco again _only_ if I could work in a big data product.

Telcos have the best dataset available; but they cannot sell it for regulatory
reasons. Banks have the second best (where money is spent), but face the same
problem.

~~~
hamtaroPhD06
The position offered to me was not as interesting.

Basically I would have been developing their PHP/JavaEE website where they
display news, sport, weather, announcements, etc.. With some interaction stats
behind.

------
brudgers
No. And by 'no', I mean statistically speaking, no.

A job hunt is a variation on the dating problem. Here's a popular account:
[https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2016/02/16/when-...](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2016/02/16/when-
to-stop-dating-and-settle-down-according-to-math/)

------
bluelu
Hi,

We are currently searching for more developers at talkwalker.com in
Luxembourg.

If you are interested, please send me your resume to tbritz@talkwalker.com and
reference this thread, and if all is fine, I will you invite you for an
interview. It would require you to move to Luxembourg though.

------
informatimago
Don't have any regret. If you have any doubt about the contract, IME then even
if you take the job, it won't last long (and when I say not long, like less
than 2 months).

------
wkoszek
Not sure what you do, but 1900EU/month is more like an internship. For this
much, you could go and do the internship at some EU computer center and
interact with top-notch people. But don't work for this much. Not sure where
you live, but in most EU places you'll have a hard time paying rent and having
some savings with this much.

------
ilovepho
Do you guys know anything about the average salaries in Germany, especially
Berlin?

------
rajacombinator
What does a Starbucks/McDonald employee make there? 1900/mo seems like a total
joke for a skilled job that requires brain usage, I'd go with a barista gig
instead.

------
factorialboy
You can make 40-50K per year as a junior developer in NL. FYI.

~~~
hamtaroPhD06
NL ?

~~~
Quatschmann
I guess Netherlands.

------
bbcbasic
Sounds like exploitation. Slightly above minimum wage.

