
People see it as more acceptable to make passionate employees do extra: study - whack
https://www.fuqua.duke.edu/duke-fuqua-insights/kay-passion-exploitation
======
kstenerud
Since nobody is actually reading the article, let me sum it up:

In a survey of regular people (not EvilCorp CEOs), "people consider it more
legitimate to make passionate employees leave family to work on a weekend,
work unpaid, and handle unrelated tasks that were not in the job description."

"This finding extended to asking for work far beyond the job description,
including leaving a day at the park with family and cleaning the office
bathroom."

"Participants read about a Ph.D. student’s working relationship with their
graduate advisor. Those who read a scenario in which the student was being
exploited – verbally abused and given unreasonable deadlines – rated the
student as likely to be more passionate than students who weren’t being
exploited."

What this study finds is that regular people, you and me, say that exploiting
passionate people and mistreating them is OK. That we're so willing to make
compensatory justifications of abuse is not a good sign.

~~~
mc32
So that’s why companies want “passionate” workers, so the non passionate ones
have someone to offload problems to...

I rue this era when HR mimics the tactics of marketing... we want passionate
“ninjas,” (whatever the term of the day is) who “share our vision” “to make a
better world”. You know what. Hire people to do the job description you post.
All the other frills are just image marketing.

~~~
Arubis
There's some nuance and complication there, of course--putting aside the
marketspeak for "ninjas" (which has been bullshit since it was first termed; I
think that, and similar terms, are at last dead and buried, no?), if you're a
mission- or social impact-oriented organization, a fair number of your
potential hires are actively seeing a source of fulfillment in their work, and
providing them with an outlet for that can benefit everybody involved. I don't
say that as justification for taking advantage of people's passions to load
them up unfairly; more to acknowledge that there's sometimes more to it than a
straight exchange of skills * time for cash.

~~~
mc32
> if you're a mission- or social impact-oriented organization, a fair number
> of your potential hires are actively seeing a source of fulfillment in their
> work..."

I suppose, but I think there are a great number of Non-profits and Volunteer
orgs who don't rely on lofty language in order to attract talent. I still
think these things should fit the job expected to be carried out. Google and
others have these kinds of messages in order to corner talent, but it's not
necessary, Microsoft is just as capable and they do not resort to lofty
flowery language to achieve their goals and they are no worse than Google for
it (in either what they do or what they stand for).

------
duxup
I've worked jobs where I loved that exact job and I was willing to compromise
and make less money than I otherwise might elsewhere to stay in that
situation.

Everyone understood that to be the case, me, employer.

I don't think the employer was taking advantage of me, they were creating the
exact environment that I really enjoyed.... that was the trade.

I was also involved in a situation where we had some inters we hired who put
in a TON of extra work (the other interns very much not so...). These guys
didn't have to but they put in a lot of work as interns and kept at it after
that. They were paid less than those around them (granted still paid quite
well) with more experience, but in return they got to start in a position that
they otherwise would not start in (more experience required), and that took
extra work on their part to get caught up.

They loved the work, their careers got a pretty big boost and after a while
they were making roughly the same as everyone else (ballpark).

I think half the battle here is communication. Talk to your boss and get on
the same page if you can.

Sitting in your cube and convincing yourself you're being taken advantage of
doesn't mean you are.

~~~
rexpop
> Sitting in your cube and convincing yourself you're being taken advantage of
> doesn't mean you are.

This is a condescending attitude verging on gaslighting.

"Just because you believe it, doesn't make it true."

A low-power truism used to dismiss real pain.

~~~
duxup
I don't think I understand what you mean.

I've known plenty of people who imagine they're being taken advantage of, but
aren't working with their employer on it, and don't know the lay of the land.

I'm not convinced many people really know their value in the market / what
their employer really thinks / is doing, but you'd have to know those things
to really know if you're being taken advantage of.

~~~
bena
The situation is vastly more complicated than people appreciate. Because you
can have people who:

Know their value and are being taken advantage of. Don't know their value and
are being taken advantage of. Know their value and aren't being taken
advantage of. Don't know their value and aren't being taken advantage of.

Not to mention the cases where the employer isn't aware of the value their
employee is providing and would adjust their compensation if they were aware.
Or the employee is taking advantage of the employer. Or many other things I
haven't thought of.

I don't understand the mindset that the simple existence of a disparity means
that someone is being taken for a ride.

------
scardine
If you hate your job, someone may be taking advantage of you.

If you love your job, someone may be taking advantage of you.

Someone may be taking advantage of you. Or not. Who knows?

~~~
wesammikhail
This is what the oppressor vs oppressed narrative will get you. A constant
state of trying to identify the group that is exploiting another even when
such thing does not exist.

~~~
nathan_long
Your comment sounds more like a soap box than interacting with the actual
article.

> In one study, participants who read that an artist was strongly passionate
> about his job said it was more legitimate for the boss to exploit the artist
> than those who read the artist wasn’t as passionate. This finding extended
> to asking for work far beyond the job description, including leaving a day
> at the park with family and cleaning the office bathroom.

This is not normal and professional behavior.

------
Animats
That's the startup business model. Fill them with dreams, overwork them, and
discard them when the dream fails.

WeWork has a series of motivational articles to do just that.[1] That's part
of WeWork's business case for charging more for their office space.

[1] [https://www.wework.com/creator/personal-profiles/turn-
career...](https://www.wework.com/creator/personal-profiles/turn-career-
passion/)

------
itsgrimetime
This seems to be regularly happening in "passion" fields like human space
flight, or bleeding edge tech spaces like self driving cars, medical
technology, etc. For an example, just look at salaries between places like
SpaceX, Blue Origin, or Virgin Galactic where total comp for a software
engineer is between ~100-140K vs any FAANG company where equivalent experience
will pull in upwards of ~200K TC. The disparity is even larger for non-
software roles (EE, HDE, ME). I acknowledge that there are more than likely
other forces here, but I highly doubt that the labor supply for these
specialized skills is higher than that for general software engineering.
Perhaps this is a place where unionization could be helpful.

~~~
justfor1comment
When you can't offer salaries, offer them dreams.

------
cscheid
When I was in a less-than-ideal job situation a few years ago, I found myself
saying "... but I love my job" to a friend. I'll never forget the reply: "...
you may love your job, but the job doesn't love you back". It was tough to
hear it, but in hindsight I'm very thankful for that jolt.

------
lostmymind66
Well, it goes both ways.

I love my job because it's not that difficult, it pays really well, and it's
something I've had experience with for decades.

I can get most of my work done in the span of 2 hours/day and have time left
over to work on my side business. My boss is extremely happy with my work and
I actually have been making more progress than most of the previous developers
in my position.

~~~
willio58
Just out of curiosity, what line of work are you in? Sounds like a great set
up you have there.

------
mrbonner
Yeah, I know.

I am loving what I do and my boss knows it. So, he lets me run loose to do
whatever I think necessary for the business. In a way, I am taking more
responsibilities than he asks for my role. But at the same time, I am also
taking advantage of this by learning and applying interesting stuffs to help
me advance.

------
JohnFen
If I love my job, then I'm not being taken advantage of (from my perspective).
If I'm being taken advantage of, that is a strong force to get me to hate my
job.

Whether or not my supervisors _think_ they're taking advantage of me is a
different matter, and one that is largely irrelevant to me.

~~~
blacktonystark
Its like if spanking was your fetish but the person spanking you believes they
are punishing you. It's irrelevant to the person being spanked as long as they
enjoy it.

~~~
gretch
I feel like this entire forum demonstrates a chronic pessimism by rejecting
the idea that a deal can be a 'win-win', that somehow both participants in the
deal can benefit and the world is non-zero

~~~
JohnFen
I think that my comment, and the one you're directly replying to, are both
describing win-win situations.

~~~
gretch
Yes you're right and I was not saying otherwise. I was trying to point out
that it's more the exception than the rule. The entire other 99% of the
thread, and the OP topic itself is suggesting that relationships can only be
win-lose

------
2819b
Outside of tech, there are certainly industries that thrive on low-paid junior
workers and get away with it because there are so many desperate for a "foot
in the door" that they don't have to pay more e.g. entertainment, most D.C.
gov jobs.

~~~
sq_
Even inside of tech, I think one can safely say that there are certain areas
that do the same. Game development for instance.

~~~
Animats
NASA was once like that. A long time ago.

Game development is hell if you're not at the top.

Dealing with Hollywood is a pain if you're not dazzled by the industry. Either
they're in development and their credit cards bounce, or they're in production
and they want a new feature yesterday.

------
daenz
One of the most difficult challenges for me during my career is establishing
boundaries to curb when I am being exploited. I am passionate about writing
awesome, powerful software, so I am willing to put in long hours and grind
because I genuinely love it. However, it's important to step back now and
again and look at your value more objectively from your employer's standpoint,
and negotiate compensation, hours, etc from that perspective. Otherwise you
will burn out. You'll always be "exploited" to some degree, since it's the
nature of a business making money, but it doesn't have to be as bad as it can
be.

~~~
awkward
A metric I've found useful: Is your boss directing what you're working on
right now?

Software is a profession, and like any profession it requires that you put in
time to practice and expand your skills. Keep what you need to do for work
separate from what you want to do to grow.

------
b_tterc_p
I don’t think this study means much. It’s not “it’s ok to make passionate
people endure bad conditions”, but rather “it’s more ok to make passionate
people endure bad conditions than non-passionate people”.

I don’t particularly agree with this, but if I was asked if it’s ok to ask for
overtime from people who hate their jobs and then people who love their jobs,
I wouldn’t be surprised if I answered slightly better for those who love their
jobs.

Survey design imo. Or perhaps more retroactive Protestant work ethic bias.

------
Spooky23
Companies don’t care about anything that doesn’t drive the bottom line.

~~~
saagarjha
The goal is making it clear that keeping you happy improves their bottom line.

------
jweir
There is an EconTalk with a Broadway producer. And he talks about the history
of why Broadway unionized but essentially people were so willing to work that
producers wouldn’t even pay them.

The fashion industry is much the same today. Models, photographers, hair and
make up artists working very hard for free or nearly for free - hoping to make
it.

[http://www.econtalk.org/mitch-weiss-on-the-business-of-
broad...](http://www.econtalk.org/mitch-weiss-on-the-business-of-broadway/)

------
hosh
I remember there are arguments that motherhood is seen as unpaid work. I
wonder if there is a connection here with that. There seems to be a stronger
shift in the past ten years or so where mothers are increasingly called out on
being a "bad mother". Is there some relation there with the cultural attitudes
on exploiting passion?

------
paulcole
Do the extra work nobody else wants to do and you can get away with so much.
Definitely worth the tradeoff IMO.

------
ljm
> If someone is passionate about what they do, we see it as more legitimate to
> exploit them

That, to me, is a lot different than taking advantage. There are plenty of
reasons you would take advantage of your job too... it’s not a negative thing,
it’s making the best of it.

It’s a much better title.

------
anovikov
Of course. I long developed that inner rule: whenever i am going to execute
any business transaction and know i will not feel guilty as a result, i am
going to be taken advantage of and should not do it.

~~~
JoshTriplett
That assumes zero-sum, and one-time transactions. Two parties can have a
transaction where both go away happy, neither was taken advantage of, and both
would like to do it again. If you push to have a transaction that's to your
advantage, you might get one, and you might also make someone less inclined to
do business with you again.

~~~
anovikov
Not really! It even pertains to long-term relationship. If you are not hard
enough on your clients, they perceive you as cheap labor. And you become cheap
labor.

~~~
JoshTriplett
I'm not suggesting letting yourself get cheated. I'm suggesting not pushing so
hard that the person you're dealing with feels cheated, either. You shouldn't
feel guilty about making a good deal, and neither should the person you're
dealing with.

------
ltbarcly3
So to sum up: "If you love what you do, your employer won't make you stop
doing it, and might encourage you to do it more." and this means they are
taking advantage of you.

------
msiyer
There is no difference between alcoholism and workaholism. Both are
manifestations of lack of control over self.

------
OrgNet
Do extra work for same pay... that is usually how it goes for me... I suck at
salary negotiations.

------
sjg007
I think people should have a sense of ownership over their jobs.

------
BrainInAJar
Labor is the source of value. The managerial and owner class is paid and gets
rich through the surplus of your labor. If your boss stops working, value is
still created. If you stop working, everything grinds to a halt.

You are being taken advantage of.

~~~
bcheung
Labor is only one of many sources of value. Some other sources are technology,
machinery, relationships, capital, education, experience, reputation, and
efficient organization of resources. A business, by necessity, brings much
more to table than the mere sum of the labor.

The managerial class is paid to efficiently organize human resources (hiring,
motivating, growing, conflict resolution, scheduling, removing obstacles to
labor) and non-human resources (budgeting, purchasing, etc).

The owner is paid for making sure a company is aligned with a vision,
investing resources, securing funding, assuming liability, and taking risks.

Labor is worth very little without the above mentioned things. This is why
people often work for others rather than themselves.

~~~
opportune
>technology, machinery, relationships, capital, education, experience,
reputation, and efficient organization of resources

Literally all of these are a result of labor. Maybe not relationships per se
but in a business context, yes. The rest of your comment also seems very
ignorant of basic Marx

~~~
bena
Consider the idea that he thinks Marx is wrong and that basic Marx is more
basic than Marx.

~~~
opportune
Can you dispute the idea that technology, machinery, capital, education,
experience, reputation, and efficient organization of resources are not all
direct outcomes of labor?

