
Walmart Pay - chirau
http://news.walmart.com/news-archive/2015/12/10/walmart-introduces-walmart-pay
======
oneJob
All these "Company"Pay systems are horrible for the consumer. Sure they may
give a particular consumer a particular benefit at a particular point in time,
but on balance they are the Facebook of currencies.

One of PayPal's initial strategies was to maximize transactions for which both
the payer and payee were PayPal customers. This decreased PayPal's operating
costs and reduced fraud by a large amount. Sounds like everyone wins, right?

That's simply not what currency is. Currency is an transferable i.o.u. worth
whatever the creditor says it's worth. The most pervasive currency is
currently the greenback. Every additional party or layer between you and the
U.S. government increases credit risk and transaction costs everytime you make
a transaction outside the pay network your currency is held in.

Visa is so convenient because they try to be everywhere, because that's their
business. Apple is not a payment network. Walmart is not a payment network.
Walmart Pay is simple one part of Walmart's portfolio. Since it's not their
core product, they will by necessity make compromises that negatively affect
their Walmart Pay from time to time in order to benefit some other part of
their business. Look to GE Capital for a case study of what can go wrong
there.

Just as Facebook is a walled garden for communities, these pay networks are
walled gardens for currencies. Some are actually really great, just as
Facebook is actually a really great community site. But at the end of the day
it's not your garden. With other options such as Visa or cash, I find it
difficult to justify turning over yet another critical apect of my daily life
to a profit driven corporation according to the limiting and onerous terms and
conditions they set.

Phew. Now I can go back to watching Wes Craven's "Shocker".

~~~
cballard
Apple Pay is just a nice frontend for Visa, AmEx, etc., with _better_ security
- disposable credit card numbers to defeat merchant tracking and leaks.

~~~
ctdonath
Also faster.

Double-tap watch or iPhone button, wave device near register, done. Fast.

That vs Walmart Pay tap iPhone button, [swipe to find icon,] tap icon, wait
for app, tap scan button, position camera for QR code, wait for focus &
recognize, done. Too long.

I tried Walmart's Scan-and-Go app. Idea was you could scan all your stuff
before reaching the register, scan one QR code, pay, and leave. Took an
inordinately long time. Walmart dumped it.

Edit: actually there _has_ been a "tap to pay" available at many places. All
too often it was turned off, and mildly confusing which cards had it (I had
one that did, then its replacement card didn't, so there I was waving a non-
tap card at a tap reader). The whole tech fizzled.

~~~
oneJob
My AmEx card has had tap-to-pay functionality for years now. I keep it in my
wallet where it is nearest the outside and can use without removing from my
wallet. Easy. No buttons. No QR codes. And it's old tech. Still not seeing the
obvious argument for throwing such an important piece of my public persona
(personal finances and credit) into the same basket as my cell phone.

~~~
cballard
Your cell phone's data is protected by a fingerprint reader or arbitrary-
length passcode, while your wallet's data is protected by the other person not
having a knife.

~~~
cperciva
Your wallet is protected by the other person not having a knife. Your cell
phone's data is protected by the other person not being willing to use their
knife to cut off one of your fingers. ;-)

~~~
cballard
Muggers are still stealing iOS devices, which people can just permanently
brick via iCloud now, so I wouldn't expect that level of foresight!

~~~
r00fus
Parts are parts and iOS devices have a lot of non-commodity parts that can't
get "bricked".

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Keverw
Looks like Walmart doesn't take Apple Pay or Android pay after a quick Google
search. After the whole CurrentC thing, I don't think I'd trust any store
owned payment apps. I thought the whole goal of Apple Pay was to simplify
things, then all these stores want to make their own versions. To much
fragmentation in the mobile payment space, better to just carry a regular
major credit card, at least it's accepted almost everywhere universally.

~~~
Shivetya
I have read more than one article that many don't use Apple pay either. I have
it and honestly have no reason to use it because credit cards just work. It
would be one thing if fraud was prevalent and using your credit card was
difficult but that has never been the case.

I still don't understand the business case other than trying to open a new
revenue stream because it certainly wasn't solving a problem

~~~
tammer
I think the long plan here is what Tim Cook specifically said when announcing
Apple Pay - eventually, the iPhone will replace your wallet and keys. This in
turn will make iPhone an essential part of life - a necessary goal for a
product so successful to continue growing. Expect an identity product in the
near to mid future.

~~~
untog
Sounds awful. What happens when I lose it, I lose my entire life? Battery
dies? Drop it in the toilet?

Having all the important aspects of your life a little distributed isn't the
worst thing in the world.

~~~
eanzenberg
The part of the iphone which includes "you" is stored in the cloud. You only
lose/damage the hardware part, so get another one and backup from the cloud.
Currently more expensive than when losing a set of keys or wallet but may not
be in the future.

~~~
bennyg
Meh - maybe. Imagine this scenario:

You're out at a restaurant, and you drove there. Your phone dies somehow,
either dropped in toilet, or what have you. How do you do the following?

\- Pay for dinner

\- Drive your car, since your keys were in your phone

\- Pay for a cab since you can no longer drive

\- Pay for a phone replacement at an Apple Store

etc, etc.

~~~
virusduck
Same if your wallet falls out of your pocket

~~~
untog
But your wallet can't lose power or suffer water damage (to the cards at
least).

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alexc05
One few of my colleagues did some agency work for Walmart. A large web
application for working in parts of their supply chain.

These guys are some of the best programmers I know and they had nothing but
respect for Walmart tech teams.

The first time it came up that I made a casual assumption like "oh, they must
be very 'enterprize-y' in their software development." and one of them
corrected me by saying something to the effect of "You'd be surprised
actually, they're not just surprisingly sophisticated technologically 'for an
enterprise' but they're actually surprisingly sophisticated for anyone"

Anyways, small anecdote that stuck with me.

Walmart is apparently _VERY_ strong in the IT side of things.

~~~
mreiland
They always have been, I took a tour of their facilities in college. I recall
being told at the time that every transaction that goes through any of their
stores anywhere in the world is saved to a HD and stored in a vault somewhere.
Kind of insane when you think about it.

~~~
hga
It can be very handy. Five or more years ago, when you returned an item,
they'd manually mark the line in your receipt, which works well enough.
Yesterday I had to return an item for the first time since then, and after
they read the barcode on my receipt from 2 months ago, I saw the whole
receipt, or at least the end of it, flash on a small user facing LCD, and they
didn't have to do anything else with my paper receipt. For a product quality
return like this I can see many ways in which this would be useful.

------
LargeCompanies
Apple Pay seems to be more widely available and I find myself using it 6 out
of 10 times here in the mid-Atlantic region. The majority of the times its
easier as you don't have to endure as many button pushes/P.O.S. screens.

Walmart Pay is CurrentC all over again with a different name and still the
same horrible user experience (download an app, open the app at the register..
give your phone to cashier to scan then go thru all this other POS motions?).
As well the underlying fact why Walmart is pushing this to fatten their bottom
lines vs. focusing on moving the needle forward for their consumers. Whether
it's Apple Pay or another built in Pay service in one's phone no other
downloadable app can provide the same world class user experience.

~~~
coldcode
I believe it is CurrentC, at least Walmart was the leader in starting that in
the first place. The whole point of this system is to know exactly who is
buying what at Walmart. With Apple Pay (or similar) the store has no clue.

~~~
LargeCompanies
Also, they want to avoid paying the credit company fees.

------
wehadfun
What would make this better is if you can buy the stuff without going to
checkout.

Pick it up. Scan the barcode. Leave.

The digital receipt by its self makes this usefull for me.

Edit: added additional comment

~~~
cbhl
A lot of items at Wal-Mart have anti-theft RFID tags on them, though, and it
would be a pain to say "oh you can't buy this shirt or that video game through
the app".

~~~
johnward
Are they just generic RFID tags or do they identify the items? If they
identify the items there has to be an easy way to match the items in the cart
vs what has been paid for, no?

~~~
bsilvereagle
The cheaper alarms are just two magnetic coils working in conjunction. There's
a nice write by Hackaday on them - [http://hackaday.com/2015/12/03/how-store-
anti-theft-alarms-w...](http://hackaday.com/2015/12/03/how-store-anti-theft-
alarms-work-magnetostriction/)

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swang
Thought this would address something in regards to their workers' wages. Guess
I was too optimistic.

~~~
x3n0ph3n3
I thought the same thing from the title.

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mwexler
Thank goodness, another separate wallet to keep track of with non-linked data,
another vector for potential theft, and no clear reward for me.

Starbucks app has a rewards play, Taco Bell app has customization... but
without some compelling magic for non-frequent users, I don't see how this
helps the company since it doesn't really seem to help the consumer (and so
would have limited penetration).

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degenerate
>> "at any checkout lane"

Oops, they forgot to rephrase this to be more clear:

"at any of the _open_ checkout lanes, meaning < 5% of them... because screw
you, your time is worthless"

~~~
jazzex
They still have to scan your items.

~~~
aaronem
He's not talking about that. He's talking about the fact that, at any Wal-Mart
you care to patronize, you'll find that while they have sixteen or twenty
tills installed and ready to use, they have maybe three actually staffed and
available for checkout, so you end up standing in line for five or ten minutes
even when there's hardly anyone in the store, and when it's busy you get to
choose between waiting half an hour and taking your business elsewhere.

~~~
reviseddamage
"Taking your business elsewhere" from Walmart is hardly a decision that is
ever made.

~~~
epochwolf
I never go to Walmart because of this. I most of my shopping at Kroger and if
I need something they don't have, I go to Target or Amazon.

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tzm
Jim Walton (Sam Walton's son) owns 96% of Arvest Bank, which is exclusive to
Walmart in the Midwest.

Arvest is a growing financial network of banks and related services, which
Walmart has been connected to since 1961. It's not a stretch to think that
Walmart would create it's own payment network by proxy.

~~~
lost_name
It sounds more like they're integrating their stores with their online site.
You scan the register you're at when paying for something, and then you can
pay with the app -- you probably need your credit card info saved to your
Walmart.com profile or something as well.

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krisroadruck
All of these pay with your phone things are really pointless until we can also
show ID with our phones. As long as we are required to carry physical
government issued id's we'll still need a wallet, and since we are carrying a
wallet anyway why not just keep your cards with you as well. Until using my
phone for things means I wont have to carry my wallet, I just don't see the
benefit.

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arfrank
Some quick, deep analysis here (from an industry veteran):
[http://blog.starpointllp.com/blog/?p=4391](http://blog.starpointllp.com/blog/?p=4391)

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tjtrapp
>> The result is an innovation that will make the ease of mobile payments a
reality for millions of Americans.

I don't think this is an innovation but more of an evolution of an already
existing process.

>> ”The Walmart app was built to make shopping faster and easier,”

I have to get wallet from pocket, open it, take out card and swipe - 4
actions.

OR

I have to take phone from pocket, unlock it by tapping the screen 6 times
(dont mess up), opening the app(, maybe navigating to the scanner), then
scanning - 4+ actions.

That is neither faster nor, in my opinion, easier.

Where's the benefit for me (as a consumer) with these electronic payment
systems?

[edited formatting]

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j_m_b
If only there was some way to self-checkout with this. Scan your own barcode
with the camera, bag your own goods. Set them on the scale, checkout!

I know security is a big risk with this, but stores DO have self-checkouts.

One step closer to making shopping at the store as easy as going into, picking
out what I want and leaving.

PS How much of this was written in Clojure?

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jostmey
The fastest way to pay is cash---how many times have you waited around a
credit card machine waiting for the transaction to go through? Anyway, the big
time sink is in the shopping experience, waiting in line, and checking out the
items. Who cares how long it takes to pay? Focus on getting ride of waiting in
line.

~~~
Yhippa
As someone who pays with credit card I get pretty upset with people who pay
with cash. People fumbling around for exact change. The person working the
register has to deal with bill or coin shortages: "oops we're out of quarters
hey can someone bring some to my register?" Not to mention the overhead
incurred by having to deal with all the cash at the end of the day and dealing
with shortages.

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MisterBastahrd
Given that I don't walk around with my phone in my hand, it takes about the
same amount of effort to pull a card out of my wallet as it does to extract my
phone from my front pocket and then find the app to pay with. No thanks.

~~~
reviseddamage
You are not the average Walmart shopper that relies on market bottom prices
that Walmart is best at. Neither are you probably the average Walmart shopper
that is sticky to Walmart discounts, rebates, and weakly deals.

~~~
MisterBastahrd
Most people don't have their phones in their hands when they shop, either,
especially at a Walmart where you're more likely to be pushing a buggy than
anything. The only time I usually see someone with something at Walmart other
than their object of payment is if they found an ad at another store which is
cheaper. Payment by phone is largely a solution looking for a problem.

~~~
reviseddamage
Most people also don't have their wallet in their hands when they are walking
around. This usability and natural action argument is sort of moot and non
impactful to this a discussion. If I really wanted to keep arguing, I would
say that people waiting in line to pay are probably browsing their phone while
waiting, so the transition to paying is not cumbersome. It's still a terrible
argument for Walmart Pay. But, not as bad as saying that folks won't use
Walmart Pay because the buggy is occupying their hands.

The probability of finding most things that are cheaper elsewhere than Walmart
is extremely small. Their margins and their entire business model depends on
that. So your anecdotes of people finding something cheaper is not material.

And finally the good 'ole "solution looking for the problem." It seems it is
more and more the default "I-cant-extrapolate-but-this-sounds-clever."

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fierycatnet
I think I've heard it on some podcast that they are using Clojure to process
these requests. Is that the project? I know Walmart uses the language so I am
thinking it's probably it. Which is kinda cool.

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eranation
I'd rather they just open Apple Pay instead of a less secure, more cumbersome
alternative. I'm not scanning QR codes so far and I'm not planing to start
anytime soon.

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thieving_magpie
One more place to have your PII stolen.

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darkstar999
Why does this utilize the phone's camera instead of RFID? Fiddling with the
camera seems annoying.

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sarciszewski
The irony here is, of course, that Walmart does NOT pay [its employees well].
:P

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joryhatton
Gross.

