
Sales comes out of who you genuinely are - jimmyjim
http://swombat.com/2012/11/30/genuine-sales
======
dschiptsov
That is a fairy tale kind of story.

In reality, by being who you genuinely are you can earn living, if you're
lucky, but to earn wealth you need to press and push and cheat.

Look, at the differences between CL and Java, Redis and MongoDB, Postgres and
MySQL to name the few very popular examples. "Commercially successful"
products invest heavily in creating, creating a misleading hype and other
manipulations.

Being who you means to become a marginal, a hobbyist, with, perhaps, much
above average abilities, in the best case.

But to make money you _must_ pressure and bullshit people, because it is only
by cheating you could get above-average returns. It is much easier and cheaper
than to make something which is above average.

Look at that Java, ERP, or artificially inflated open source crap? This is how
to sell. SAP has the best sales people it could hire. But once you're
convinced to buy - you are locked for life.

It is all about tricks like SEO or MVPs, faked reviews or whatever, when you
put words and hype ahead of the real things. And, of course, there are people,
who are ready to do tricks instead of doing real things.

I'm not trying to say that it is illegal - trying to exploit fools is a legal
practice, the problem is that it become a dominant one.

Writing a pleasant stories for fools instead of real product specifications
and reference documentation is so common, that nobody even reads it anymore.)

~~~
dave_sullivan
You know, I used to be really cynical and agree with much of this. But over
the last few years, I've come back to the middle. I think the story is more
complex than this.

Yes, to build wealth you need to press and push--no one is going to give you
anything for free and pre-buyers remorse can be a bitch. But cheat? I don't
know about that--it depends on your definition.

If cheating is maintaining borderline outrageous profit margins, then yes, it
helps to do that. But if cheating is something more along the lines of getting
50% up front for a project you underbid, then holding that money hostage while
you proceed to milk the project with change orders every step of the way--then
yes, that's cheating (and probably illegal-ish). Plenty of people operate this
way but I think it's a pretty bad way to do business--both from an economic
standpoint and a how-did-you-get-to-be-such-a-terrible-person? standpoint. And
then of course there's the run-of-the-mill cheating that is enterprise
software marketing departments, but if that's your worst sin in life, I think
you're probably doing ok.

And while there are plenty of cases of crooks making out like bandits, there
are just as many about pretty honest people making out like bandits as well.
Compare Mike Milken and Warren Buffet for example. Or from tech, the guy that
started color vs pg. As far as what I've read about both of them, they seem
like rather different personality types, but both of them seem to be doing ok
financially.

So yes, nothing is cut and dry, and anyone that says you can't make a lot of
money via semi-legal stealing is dead wrong, but I really don't think this is
the only--or even the most expedient--way to get rich. Speaking personally, I
prefer sitting around coming up with ways to build value for customers instead
of coming up with more clever ways of fucking them.

~~~
dschiptsov
I'm from the whole country of thieves, looters and cheaters, (in common folk's
popular culture these considered virtues) or, at least, from what it became to
be in last few decades.)

~~~
CamperBob2
Those thieves, looters, and cheaters are no different from you or me. We're
all _H. sapiens sapiens_ here. The only difference is culture.

My guess is that a culture that teaches that we are all thieves, looters, and
cheaters will indeed find itself full of those characters. Meanwhile, a
culture where profit and value are seen as compatible with human dignity and
progress will find your view utterly alien.

The cool thing about culture is that it's opt-in by nature. You can adopt any
culture that you find advantageous, or create your own. Most people don't take
advantage of that fact, but it's still an option, and it's one that you should
perhaps consider.

------
trotsky
While I agree with the sentiment, the basis for the argument is clearly
factually inaccurate. There are plenty of successful salesmen who sell
products that cannot possibly benefit the buyer - c.f. boiler room operations,
etc. When you ignore or distort obvious facts to make a much less obvious (but
possibly true) point like "sustainable sales practices are more accretive over
a long enough period" you make people who read your article wonder what else
you say has been fabricated to support your position.

Let's flip it around: to give out good advice, you need offer it based on
actual experience and not just suppositions. (not necessarily true either, but
it sure seems like it would strengthen your argument)

------
dagw
_a great salesperson will never be selling something that they don't believe
actually helps the customer_

This seems very much like a No True Scotsman fallacy.

~~~
jiggy2011
Based on the sales people I have known, most would pretty much say anything to
close a deal. Though the really good ones seem to be able to convince
themselves that the product they are selling really is awesome. As soon as
they stop selling that product they go back to their old opinions on it being
a POS.

~~~
swombat
I guess some people might manage to bullshit themselves into thinking the
product is awesome when it's not... then again, even in those cases, there is
presumably some element of the product that is awesome, otherwise they
couldn't believe such a thing?

Self-delusion is a powerful force, but smart people need more than that to
achieve any kind of lasting result.

~~~
jiggy2011
From what I understand they often start with some sort of brainwashing, they
are also taught weird beliefs like "every time a customer says no the odds of
the next customer saying yes will increase".

I guess it will depend on what the product being sold is, enterprise software
is probably somewhat different to timeshares or double glazing.

It is worth bearing in mind though that some of the best salesmen throughout
history have probably been people who were knowingly selling scams.

------
Peroni
tl;dr: Believe in your product and don't be afraid to charge appropriately.

All solid advice and adding more to the 'believe in your product' concept, the
reasoning for this is incredibly simplistic. If you are attempting to sell
something you don't believe adds any value or benefit, it will be instantly
obvious in your pitch unless you happen to be a fantastic liar and that's what
led to the stereotype of the used-car salesman.

Minor nitpick: Mamet was never attempting to present Roma as a fantastic
salesman. He knows the audience can see the deceitfulness. He's actually
showing a 'behind-the-scenes' view of how liars have gained the edge in the
sales world.

~~~
swombat
Re: Mamet, interesting, I didn't know that. Any reference to that? If so I'll
put an update in!

~~~
luu
I mostly agree with your take over Mamet's, but that's how Mamet views
capitalism.

Here's Mamet on the themes in the play:
[http://www.upstartfilmcollective.com/portfolios/jcharnick/ma...](http://www.upstartfilmcollective.com/portfolios/jcharnick/mamet-
museum/old-interview.html)

 _The play concerns how business corrupts, how the hierarchical business
system tends to corrupt. It becomes legitimate for those in power in the
business world to act unethically. The effect on the little guy is that he
turns to crime. And petty crime goes punished; major crimes go unpunished. If
someone wants to destroy Manhattan for personal gain, they call him a great
man. Look at Delorean. He completely raped everybody in Northern Ireland with
that scheme_ ... _a lot of business in this country is founded on the idea
that if you don't exploit the possible opportunity, not only are you being
silly, but in many cases you're being negligent, even legally negligent._

He seems to be of the opinion that it's a corrupt system, and that people in
the system are inevitably corrupted:
<http://www.hanknuwer.com/writing/hankanddavid.html>

_This play is very much about work and about how one is altered by one's job._
... _I felt he was doing his job--doing the job of a sales manager. The job of
a sales manager is not to empathize. Irrespective of whether or not it's a
"good" job or whether he likes his job is not the point; his job is to
inspire, frighten, tempt, cajole, and do any other thing he can do to increase
sales. When things fall apart he indulges in the very human propensity to play
catch-up ball; because people have been abusing him throughout the play._

I like Mamet's work, but, in general, I try to avoid listening when authors
and artists talk about politics, because they're usually not better informed
than the average freshman in a poli-sci or econ class, and that colors my view
of their work. I was pleasantly surprised to find that Mamet's view is
nuanced. He specifically says "a lot of business", and I can't disagree there,
though we would probably disagree on the precise meaning of "a lot".

I suspect a lot of that is a generational gap. When I look around and I see
swombat-style salesmen competing with Mamet-style salesmen, I see Mamet-style
businesses getting wiped out. CarMax is cleaning up by getting rid of high
pressure sales tactics. It's so bad that around here, multiple car dealerships
that used to employ armies of annoying sales people (which I know from
firsthand experience) have taken out billboards saying they'll match CarMax's
prices and that their sales people no longer work on commission. Barnes &
Noble and Borders wiped out traditional booksellers by providing a better
experience, and they're getting wiped out by amazon providing an even more
convenient experience. I could go on for pages with examples off the top of my
head, but I have to really think to come up with examples where a business
with a 'traditional' sales model of conning people into something they don't
want is eating the lunch of a business that's really trying to give people
what they want.

~~~
Peroni
That's _exactly_ what I was looking for.

Mamet's point holds true to this day. Take any high-pressure sales role. Your
employer doesn't care how much benefit you've added to peoples lives, they
care about the numbers. Customer satisfaction isn't indicative of a job well
done in sales, quantity is. Whilst this concept seems blatantly immoral, it's
reality.

Swombats post was aimed at start-ups and his point that someone selling on
behalf of a start-up should truly believe in their product is spot on however,
in the big, bad corporate world it becomes irrelevant.

------
mistercow
>David Mamet must not have known a lot of salespeople, to have this view of
what a good salesperson is, because that is definitely not how great
salespeople work.

If I wrote a story about a politician who committed suicide, would you say
"You must not know a lot of politicians, to have this view of what a good
politician is, because suicide is definitely not what makes a great
politician"?

~~~
swombat
Mamet wrote a story about salespeople where all of them have highly dubious
ethics ranging from being outright thieves to being conmen, and the most
successful of the lot is willing to destroy someone's life to earn himself a
cadillac.

From some of the other comments, it sounds like I misinterpreted Mamet's
intent - he apparently wasn't looking to generalise to all salespeople - but
still, it seems to me the comment is fair based on this particular piece of
evidence.

~~~
mistercow
>and the most successful of the lot is willing to destroy someone's life to
earn himself a cadillac.

...and keep his job. You can hardly watch that film without feeling _soaked_
in the desperation of the characters.

>but still, it seems to me the comment is fair based on this particular piece
of evidence.

How? The story is about a particular _subset_ of the sales world, which is
where you work for an employer who gives you an undesirable product to sell
and then puts you under immense pressure to close. These situations do exist,
and the people who succeed in them _are_ the ones who are willing to act
unethically. The only way that Mamet could have realistically included an
ethical salesperson as a character would have been to depict them getting
fired.

How do you reckon that the characters depicted in an author's work are likely
to comprise the entirety of that author's experience?

------
epicjunction

      Successful salespeople don't pressure or bullshit the
      prospect into a sale. They are persistent, but they are
      always focused on achieving a deal where it will benefit
      all parties.
    

I couldn't agree more. I ranked first in sales at my company for a quarter,
before they promoted me. While some of my peers used scare tactics,
intimidation and downright lying to close the deal, I was always prepared to
walk away from deals. I never suggested anything that wasn't in their best
interest because I was thinking long-term. Funny how customers see this
genuinity and come back after shopping around. Referrals were often the
result, while my peers had customers with buyers regret. They hit their quota
by the end of the day, but lost in the long-term. On a side note, your title
may be a little misleading. It should say "Sales come out of genuinity" as the
current title implies that knowing how to sell is something inherent, whereas
it's something I taught myself.

~~~
swombat
Thanks for your comment! Fair suggestion about the title, though I think even
though your title is more accurate it somehow seems even worse than the
current title (I'm not happy with the current title either).

If anyone has suggestions for a better title, let's have them...

~~~
zio99
Have you had any experience in sales? If so, you could title it "What Sales
taught me" as my response to your post here:
<http://startupframework.tumblr.com/post/36886657978/sales>

+1 for giving sales people some overdue respect. I too feel that there are few
that just ruin the bunch, much like HR.

------
mbesto
Very good article. For all of you who are now just starting to jump on the
bandwagon of enterprise tech, this is an extremely valuable lesson. Sales is
really hard, it's very emotionally painful (and jubilent), and requires a lot
of humility. But just like building products, it's all about getting in your
customer's face. Do it early and do it often.

------
personlurking
I have yet to see the film but I'm guessing this is the part that's being
referred to.

<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qa9dttNx1S8>

------
reubenswartz
Great post. Especially useful for a lot of us "engineering" types on HN who
may not think of themselves as sales people. Turns out that if you're a
problem-solver, you can be successful in sales. You just have to think of the
customer's problem holistically, and from their point of view.

------
spinchange
ABC: Always be _contributing._

