
Some Uber Employees Balk at Travis Kalanick’s Exit - tiger3
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/06/22/technology/uber-employees-react-travis-kalanick.html
======
cocktailpeanuts
I'm sure it's not "some" but a lot of employees, but most are afraid to speak
out just because they have seen what happens to people who advocate for
someone who's down.

I know for a fact that a lot of Uber employees nowadays can't talk freely
outside about the fact that they work at Uber, when they used to be proud to
talk about it just a couple of years ago.

I also know that many employees at Uber (men or women) are proud to work at
the company, and again, too afraid to talk about it because the outside world
will treat them like nazis.

Lastly, I'm pretty sure people will turn this into sexism discussion and call
me a sexist, because they know no one can win over sexism. But I also know
that if you ask Uber employees, most of them will say it's no different from
working at any other tech company. But again, they can't say that out loud
because they will be witch-hunted.

It's kind of sad that the Internet has become optimized for this type of witch
hunt. A couple of years ago everyone wanted to get investment from Peter Thiel
and "contrarian" beliefs were celebrated. But nowadays it's used as a tool for
mockery because it's simply "hip" to talk shit about him. Same goes for Uber,
not sure if you guys remember but if you think hard enough, just a few years
ago Uber was celebrated as the "savior that fights for justice against the
abusive taxi industry, even if it means operating in a gray zone". But
nowadays media just loves to spin it as "Uber committed all kinds of illegal
crimes, so the CEO has got to go"

Before I get downvoted to oblivion, let me emphasize that I'm not saying Uber
is good. I'm saying we really need to stop witch hunt.

~~~
athanas
It's somehow symptomatic that two of the eloquent replies below are:

"Some of us think that the similarities Uber has to other tech companies in
this area is an indictment of these other companies, not an excuse for Uber."

 _and_

"Uber is not just like every other company. That's seriously some "boys will
be boys" type thinking to excuse the messed up behavior of a certain few."

It seems interesting (and characteristic of bellicose group discourse) that
either of these arguments, which of course contradict each other perfectly,
will do as well as the other. I think you hear each of them about as much. But
generally not in the same place and never by the same person.

~~~
sidlls
They don't contradict each other perfectly.

"[O]ther tech companies" doesn't include a magnitude and could very well have
meant that it's "just a few other tech companies."

Also, some might disagree with the second statement, and the degree to which
different people make either statement isn't "interesting" in the least.
Except, of course, to folks looking to excuse Uber's behavior.

------
davidf18
This FB post is referred to in the article, written by a woman who is very,
very supportive of TK:
[https://www.facebook.com/margaretann.seger/posts/10214004058...](https://www.facebook.com/margaretann.seger/posts/10214004058522221)

1000 people have "liked" the posting including Zuckerberg and a number of
women have commented in support of TK.

EDIT:

This is from the FB poster, Margaret-Ann Seger. Other women seem to confirm
her perspective. If it were truly a sexist culture as was claimed then you
wouldn’t be seeing these testimonials. It suggests that despite everything,
something else is going on.

“Thank you for creating a culture where- as a woman- it was okay to, no,
encouraged to speak up. This is one of my oft less-told anecdotes, but I feel
it's appropriate given the circumstances. Before Uber, I was at Facebook. I
left Facebook because I was told that I was too aggressive. Pushing too hard,
wanting to move too fast, challenging the status quo a bit too much. The
amazing part is that coming to Uber was like a homecoming. I could be who I
truly am, without being labeled an "aggressive" woman. I could push on
assumptions, move quickly, do whatever work needed to be done whether it was
"in my area" or not, question leadership in an open, earnest environment. It
was like a breath of fresh air. I don't think people realize how unique this
is. This company truly listens to every voice, from the VPs all the way down
to the junior PMs like myself. Thank you. Thank you for listening and creating
an environment where the best answer truly does win.”

~~~
zzalpha
_If it were truly a sexist culture as was claimed then you wouldn’t be seeing
these testimonials._

Fascinating.

One group of women saying the culture in Uber is corrosive? Well that's rumour
and innuendo.

But another group of women saying it's fine? Well, then that's just the way it
must be!

Confirmation bias much?

Here's the thing: There was an investigation. By Eric frickin' Holder. Not
exactly a legal slouch. Out of that came nearly _fifty_ recommendations for
ways to fix the culture.

Are we to believe Holder was just full of it? That it was all manufactured?
All because 6% of the Uber headcount think things were fine?

Edit:

Incidentally, those women that are supportive of Kalanick could easily be
explained by survivorship bias. That is, the women that ended up in groups
that didn't suck, or could handle the culture, stuck around while the rest
left.

~~~
davidf18
> "One group of women saying the culture in Uber is corrosive? Well that's
> rumour and innuendo."

I never suggested rumor or innuendo. But it is sexist to not believe not a
single woman but a number of women who come out and support TK. Women know
even if they have not experienced it directly (e.g. "the grapevine") if it
were a sexist environment. It is sexist to discount the FB poster, Margaret-
Ann Seger and the many other women who have come out in favor of TK. Ms. Seger
even suggests the cultural difference which favors her personality in her post
where she said she was too aggressive for the FB environment but fit right in
with Uber.

Eric Holder would not be my first choice to investigate a corporate culture.
There are professionals who have both MBAs and who are clinical psychologists
that even specialize with hi-tech companies who also see patients on an
individual basis. Eric Holder is not a clinical psychologist, has no clinical
experience, is not an expert in corporate culture let alone the unique culture
of the hi-tech startup firm.

These people have the clinical and business experience to deal with corporate
cultures and those that specialize in hi-tech firms understand that unique
environment.

Disclose, I have worked with such a specialist.

I have worked in Israel and the culture there can be off-putting to many in
the US, especially those from the west coast. Intel, which employs 10,000 in
Israel, even offers cross-cultural classes between West Coast and Israeli
culture. Many people would consider Israelis very pushy (Hutzpah is the term).
Israelis are very direct and many people don't like that. I happen to love
that but adjust for different people.

In summary, it is sexist to discount the opinions of women who worked with TK.
Eric Holder is not a clinical psychologist nor an expert in hi-tech culture.
He is no industrial psychologist. It is strange that a non-professional would
be chosen to investigate the organization.

Something else was going on.

~~~
zzalpha
_But it is sexist to not believe not a single woman but a number of women who
come out and support TK._

ROFL. I could literally replace the word "support" with "do not support" in
this sentence and it would be an equally valid argument.

A bad one. But equally so.

Read my comment again. I already explained why _both groups of women could be
right_.

 _Something else was going on._

You're confirmation bias is showing again...

~~~
davidf18
To suggest that there is an culture of sexual abuse and for a number of women
not to feel it and to state otherwise is sexual abusive. In fact they went as
far as to praise the environment.

It is suggesting that these women's feelings should not be taken seriously.

You are either pregnant or not. You can't be both.

As I mentioned earlier, Eric Holder is a lawyer, the issue has do do with
emotions and Eric Holder has absolutely no clinical training let alone
clinical training for this specific kind of environment. That makes him
unqualified to make judgments.

The question is why wasn't a specialist brought in. Someone who has the
clinical training and business training who has experience dealing with hi-
tech startup cultures brought in for an evaluation. It makes everything highly
suspect.

I am not denying that some women and others may have been put off by the
culture. Or that there may have been some specific cases of abuse. But clearly
there was no culture of sexual abuse.

It simply cannot be that Ms. Sanger and a number of women were highly
supportive of an environment that promoted sexual abuse. They are not crazy,
they are not in denial. It was not a pervasive culture.

There is something else going on and to do everyone justice, don't use an
unqualified lawyer to investigate, use a qualified industrial psychologist
with extensive clinical training. Use the right person for the job.

As I said before, I have dealt with such a highly qualified individual. I use
awareness of cognitive biases in my work where unlike Uber, cognitive biases
can kill people.

Something else is going on. A properly trained industrial psychologist with
clinical training and who knows the hi-tech startup environment should
investigate.

~~~
zzalpha
Let's set aside the claim that _stating an argument_ can be "sexually
abusive"\--I can't express how ridiculous that is--and cut to the core of your
argument, which, if I may, can be summarized as follows:

When it comes to whether Uber possesses a sexually abusive workplace
environment, _You are either pregnant or not. You can 't be both._

This is perfect example of a false dichotomy.

Corporate culture is not some monolithic thing.

Uber is a _15,000_ person company. Individual departments and reporting chains
likely varied significantly. That there may have been groups or departments in
Uber that did not share the corrosive culture experienced elsewhere in the
company is not only within reason, but to be expected.

 _I am not denying that some women and others may have been put off by the
culture. Or that there may have been some specific cases of abuse. But clearly
there was no culture of sexual abuse._

Do you work at Uber? Have you experienced their culture first hand? What,
precisely, makes you qualified to make this determination, thus invalidating
the claims of others who _do_ have first-hand experience at the company and
have said otherwise?

~~~
davidf18
I looked into this a bit further and there was an entire committee including
Holder but nobody that was truly an expert with a background in clinical
psychology and industrial psychology consulting. The committee has not one
qualified professional with any clinical psychology background at all
suggesting they were more interested in dealing with bad publicity than they
were actually investigating and understanding and fixing a problem.

You have not addressed at all the fact that they did not use a professional to
investigate these claims.

> "What, precisely, makes you qualified to make this determination,..."

I don't have to work there. People such as the FB poster Margaret-Ann Seger
and many other women who work there have been very upset about his firing.
Just read the comments for Sanger's post on FB -- those written by women who
support TK. There are 1,800 likes 350 shares, 65 comments to her FB post
alone.

Google for the name "Margaret-Ann Seger" and you will see there are recall
petitions and other positive comments by other women about the culture there.

You simply can't have these kinds of testimonials from women in there was a
truly toxic culture there. Your issue is not with me, but the women who
testify in TK's favor.

Culture does mean culture -- it means something endemic throughout. Undeniably
there were cases just as there were cases in other tech firms. But to discount
the words of the many women who work there supporting TK and his kindness and
leadership is in itself discounting their opinions which is sexually abusive.

------
habosa
This really isn't news. At Google (where I work) every time there is a big
decision made thousands of employees voice their opinion about it on internal
forums. Yet there's no NYT news story about a revolt against Sundar.

Yes, obviously, many if not most Uber employees liked Travis. He built a huge
company and made them a lot of money (on paper). He was an extremely effective
businessman in spite of his personal shortcomings.

If you have 70, 80, or 90% of the company signing a petition then let's write
some articles. For now, nothing to see here.

------
benicelifeshort
No company can hire as fast as Uber and remain good. No company ever has and
no company ever will.

His mistake was not being technical or creative enough to scale the company's
service without scaling the headcount.

The specific symptoms are not particularly interesting or novel. In fact they
were entirely predictable and the company is surprisingly good for how poorly
it was built.

There are a number of major pitfalls every company must avoid. He failed to
avoid a fatal one.

~~~
CalChris
Everything else aside, and there's a lot to set aside, Uber should have
focused on turning a profit with their core business model (difficult) rather
than, oh look! a shiny object: automated cars. I give them no credit for
growing big and unprofitable.

~~~
spikels
Take a look at the economics of driverless cars. It is not a case of "Oh look!
a shiny object" but "Oh no! We are building an obsolete business". Even the
big automakers now understand this will be radical change (Ford hired away
part of Uber's team).

~~~
mcphage
> It is not a case of "Oh look! a shiny object" but "Oh no! We are building an
> obsolete business".

Why? Even when driverless cars are standard, why does Uber need to spend the
money building their own driverless car program, instead of just buying
driverless cars from the manufacturer like the rest of us will do? Their
business plan doesn't require them to build the technology, just use it. It
would be like if Miss Cleo in 2003 foresaw the future was smartphones, and
thought the best way to proceed was to start her own smartphone manufacturing
company—instead of just making sure that she could get called from the
smartphones that others were going to make.

~~~
majewsky
You're assuming that auto companies will just sell these driverless cars like
they did regular cars. This may be true for Tesla (esp. since they're
successfully marketing their not-yet-driverless cars as "equipped for
autopilot" to improve sales before driverless is actually a thing), but for
other auto companies, I could easily see them offering driverless cars only
as-a-service.

~~~
mcphage
> I could easily see them offering driverless cars only as-a-service.

They do this now; it's called "leasing". But if they're going to stop selling
cars and only lease them, why wait? It's a bookkeeping detail that's unrelated
to the car itself.

Cars depreciate in value so heavily, I don't know why auto manufacturers would
want to adopt 100% of that loss—but there isn't anything currently stopping
them.

------
calbear81
The buck stops at the CEO. I get why the culture can get out of control and
different people have different reactions to the environment created and no
one person is responsible for the creation of culture but the CEO is the one
who is responsible for course correction and making sure shit doesn't get out
of hand. That's the failure.

The two other specific failures that also are hard to defend:

1) Rape report from the case in India - TK should have fired the exec for the
violation of privacy and disrespect to the victim. The fact that he saw the
report and didn't do much about it is a failure.

2) Otto mess - not going to assume he knew or did not know but it's a failure
of judgement to drive that acquisition without properly making sure he didn't
expose the company to such a high degree of legal risk.

At the end of the day, his reputation for risk and brashness cuts both ways. I
lean towards believing he's someone who will do what it takes to win and I
respect that. If you get caught though, be prepared to suffer the consequences
if you cut a few corners getting there.

* BTW this shit isn't unique to Uber - anytime $BBBs are on the line, people will do things they might normally not do.

------
drenvuk
I wonder if this is loyalty or fear of stock devaluation. I hope it's the
former, that kind of thing is beautiful to see in employees.

~~~
SwellJoe
I dunno. I've seen an awful lot of loyalty to ideas that don't deserve loyalty
over the past several years, and it seems to keep ruining good things.

A toxic culture really isn't one that deserves loyalty, and Kalanick
inarguably built a toxic culture into the fabric of Uber. He's not the only
one, but he's ultimately the responsible party. If you want to kill a toxic
culture that starts at the top, you simply can't leave him in charge.

It isn't surprising to me that ~1000 people in an organization would want the
toxic culture to continue. There's a small subset of people who thrive in a
toxic culture, and they, obviously, don't want it to go away.

I'm sure some of these folks just like the guy and never had any problems with
him, personally, perhaps because they're a young white male. Those folks
probably aren't actively defending the toxic culture of Uber; they're just
naively assuming that because they didn't experience it, it doesn't exist and
that Kalanick is the victim of a smear campaign.

~~~
marcell
> There's a small subset of people who thrive in a toxic culture

> perhaps because they're a young white male

Really? This is such a mean generalization of 1000 people who you have never
even met...

~~~
SwellJoe
Yeah, I'm just awful.

Have you been following the Uber story, at all, over the past several years?

------
sidlls
Mr. York should be the next to go. Who has someone with so little experience
at anything, including life, influence, let alone have serious input, in a
company's values?

No wonder there was a culture of apparently unrestrained adolescent male
aggression. An adolescent male helped shape the guidelines.

------
ivanbakel
Interesting to see how all the positive evaluations of him come from his
contributions to the company. Nobody defends his character or his moral
decisions.

Does working hard absolve you of misdeeds?

~~~
prostoalex
The question open to debate is whether one can succeed in the taxi business
without being a brash, assertive a-hole, whose opponents include brash,
assertive taxicab medallion owners and drivers as well as politicians bought
by them. Even Lyft's current expansion was somewhat facilitated by Uber coming
to town and strong-arming the municipality into legalizing ride-sharing.

~~~
williamscales
I am think many people would consider it somewhat okay to be a brash assertive
asshole to other brash assertive assholes. But that doesn't mean one has to be
a brash assertive asshole to the female employees collectively.

------
jph
Uber is in a difficult position. On the one hand, Kalanick has built a massive
company. On the other hand, Holder's investigation turned up serious problems
with the work culture. And employees, drivers, and investors are caught
between these.

To understand it from the inside, the best source I've seen is Susan Fowler's
post "Reflecting on one very strange year at Uber".
[https://www.susanjfowler.com/blog/2017/2/19/reflecting-on-
on...](https://www.susanjfowler.com/blog/2017/2/19/reflecting-on-one-very-
strange-year-at-uber)

~~~
CalChris
A massive _unprofitable_ company. Anyone can do that. Anyone.

~~~
jacquesm
Tbh I couldn't. For one I wouldn't be comfortable doing it and for another it
takes great courage to take on a project this size. So I couldn't do it for
these two reasons alone and probably many others (skills) besides.

------
dpflan
"Some" == "The 1,000 clicks the petition received represent a small fraction
of Uber’s more than 15,000 employees."

------
ensiferum
15k employees and this number obv doesn't include the drivers. Seriously?!
What do they all do?

~~~
askafriend
People says this for literally every company and it's getting fairly annoying
that so many people can't see how a global operations-heavy company that does
business in 200+ countries and develops an incredibly complex product can
require a lot of resources....it's almost like people who ask this question
have never worked on scaling a real business before.

I mean theres everything from marketing, to customer support, to ground
operations, to engineering, to site reliability, to infrastructure, to
product, to internationalization to partnerships to HR to design to recruiting
to leadership to driver onboarding to Uber Eats to self-driving...there are A
LOT of moving parts in A LOT of different countries.

It is _incredibly difficult_ to scale an operation like Uber and it takes _a
lot_ of people, time, and money.

There is a big difference between running a global business and a toy side
project that someone pushed up to Heroku...and no..."b..b..but I can just add
more servers" is not a valid scaling strategy for a _business_.

I know my comment is a bit more harsh than necessary but it's borne out of a
pent up frustration after seeing a 100 of these same comments directed at
every company in existence.

~~~
aswanson
Yeah, this reminds me of my brother saying to me, last year, that search isnt
that complicated. How do you even respond to a statement like that?

------
bfrog
I see a large layoff coming soon

------
jeremynixon
Margaret's message to Kalanick deserves to be posted here -

I'm angry, sad, flustered, confused, but mostly just heartbroken. The only
appropriate thing to say right now is thank you, Travis. Thank you for
inspiring not only your own employees but an entire generation of
entrepreneurs. Thank you for inspiring us to think bigger, faster, and higher-
impact than anyone has ever dared to think before.

Thank you for creating a place where no idea was too crazy. When we told you
that in order to make the product accessible for our international riders we
would need to accept cash payments, you weren't thrilled but you were willing
to give it a shot. When your employees told you that we needed to change some
aspects of the internal culture, you were sad but you were all ears. Building
the best possible product, the best possible company- it requires humility.
Admitting you might be wrong and being open to change. I was always impressed
by how truly humble you were.

Thank you for creating a place so passionate about bringing affordable,
reliable transportation to the whole world that your employees all over the
globe were willing to hop on planes, get on Zoom calls at bizarre hours of the
day, manually onboard thousands of drivers, stand on street corners handing
out flyers to riders, and build last-minute stunt products to help celebrate
the communities they were a part of. I've seen firsthand the impact this
product has had worldwide and the universal fire and passion that Uber
employees all over the world have to constantly improve it, to always be
serving drivers and riders better, and to perpetually push closer and closer
to truly making transportation as reliable as running water, for everyone,
everywhere.

Thank you for creating a culture where- as a woman- it was okay to, no,
encouraged to speak up. This is one of my oft less-told anecdotes, but I feel
it's appropriate given the circumstances. Before Uber, I was at Facebook. I
left Facebook because I was told that I was too aggressive. Pushing too hard,
wanting to move too fast, challenging the status quo a bit too much. The
amazing part is that coming to Uber was like a homecoming. I could be who I
truly am, without being labeled an "aggressive" woman. I could push on
assumptions, move quickly, do whatever work needed to be done whether it was
"in my area" or not, question leadership in an open, earnest environment. It
was like a breath of fresh air. I don't think people realize how unique this
is. This company truly listens to every voice, from the VPs all the way down
to the junior PMs like myself. Thank you. Thank you for listening and creating
an environment where the best answer truly does win. And thank you on behalf
of your riders and drivers. You've created millions of earning opportunities
for drivers all over the world. From the part-time student teacher driver to
the full-time driver in India, these are real economic opportunities at an
unprecedented scale. I'm always amazed talking to drivers in India or
Indonesia or Mexico or Kenya- their story is not too dissimilar from the
drivers I talk to on my way home from work in SF. Uber has allowed them to
build a better life for their family- to send their kids to school, to work
more flexible hours so that they can be there for their family. Not to mention
the newfound mobility that Uber affords millions upon millions worldwide.
Elderly folks & teens can now access their city, stress-free. People can go
out for a drink- or three- and get home safely without endangering those
around them. Uber is fundamentally reshaping people's transportation habits
and how they interact with their cities. This kind of impact would have been
unthinkable only a few years ago, but we've made it a reality- thanks to your
vision.

So thank you. We've mis-stepped at times- I'll be the first to admit that Uber
is not perfect. But the positive impact you've had on this company, and the
world, is truly inspirational.

Goodbyes always suck. Thanks to the OG Builder.

------
draw_down
As Gruber pointed out, not surprising- it was his company for a long time.

------
athanas
Think of the Uber controversy as a trial. It may be a trial by press or a
trial by Twitter. But it's had real consequences, like a real trial.

You're a judge in this trial. You've heard the prosecution make a very
eloquent case. You've been convinced. You've delivered your verdict. And the
sentence has been executed.

But wait. Didn't we skip a step? Is there a missing step in this procedure?
Perhaps that's a good exercise for the reader.

------
65827
We worshiped the corporate hierarchy so much we protest it's destruction! Even
when it was evil!

Some people just like to be told what to do I guess.

------
dixie_land
what happened to the good ol' days when Americans looked up to self made
millionaires and think "I'm gonna make myself a million bucks just like that
guy" rather than "hey f __k you for getting your lazy ass off the coach and
made your life better " then proceed with batshit PC crap to bring him down.

~~~
thatswrong0
I don't see how you can possibly look at the words and actions of Travis
Kalanick and think that him being rich is the reason that he's hated.

