
America’s largest milk producer files for bankruptcy - lelf
https://edition.cnn.com/2019/11/12/business/dean-foods-bankruptcy/index.html
======
azinman2
> That's not the only problem Dean Foods has faced. Walmart (WMT), which was
> one of Dean Food's biggest customers, dropped them last year after building
> its own dairy plant.

Burying the lead here... I’m sure that had an outsized impact on them.

~~~
staticautomatic
I think you meant "lede".

~~~
cfield
Perhaps.[0]

Or perhaps not.[0]

\-----

[0] [https://www.poynter.org/reporting-editing/2019/lead-vs-
lede-...](https://www.poynter.org/reporting-editing/2019/lead-vs-lede-roy-
peter-clark-has-the-definitive-answer-at-last/)

~~~
tptacek
Really, just, not. You can spell it either way; if you're writing for (or as)
an editor, or just for the affectation of knowing editor jargon, "lede"; if in
conversational English, "lead".

(I write "lede" all the time, and it is totally an affectation).

~~~
pen2l
I notice you tend to use semicolons more than anyone else I know. Is that also
an affectation? I mean, are you sometimes reformulating your thoughts in order
to avail yourself to the opportunity of using a semicolon? Because me, rarely
does a thought come to me in a way which would be best communicated with the
usage of a semicolon, but maybe that's just me and my thinking style.

~~~
jjeaff
Semicolon usage could be an affectation or preference; it is generally used in
place of a regular conjunction like "but" or "and".

There isn't any usage that I can think of where it would be the only "correct"
way to write something; it's stronger than a comma but weaker than a period.

(I don't ever use semicolons normally. Was just trying to show some examples.)

------
Causality1
This has much less to do with the rise of plant-based milk than the article
implies. USDA checkoff programs force diary farmers to fund marketing while
USDA marketing orders set minimum dairy prices. The result of this meddling is
an enormous oversupply of dairy products. The USDA buys surplus cheese to
encourage domestic cheese production. They buy surplus milk and give it to
food banks. The oversupply caused by this bizarre fixation was noticed decades
ago and a warning was published in the Federal Register in 1983:

[https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/FR-1983-08-02/pdf/FR-198...](https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/FR-1983-08-02/pdf/FR-1983-08-02.pdf)

~~~
metaphor
> _The oversupply caused by this bizarre fixation was noticed decades ago and
> a warning was published in the Federal Register in 1983:_

>
> [https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/FR-1983-08-02/pdf/FR-198...](https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/FR-1983-08-02/pdf/FR-1983-08-02.pdf)

...starting on p. 13, for interested parties.

------
indigodaddy
The articles indicates that Dean Foods owns the Organic Valley cooperative,
which is not accurate. There is a 50/50 partnership between Dean and Organic
Valley called Organic Valley Fresh, but Dean certainly does not own Organic
Valley.

~~~
radec
Thanks for that info, I was curious

------
Hitton
It's not surprising at all. Dairy industry has for long time pushed various
flavoured milk drink on schoolchildren and now with war on obesity it stopped
being viable. There was long lasting myth about milk preventing bone fractures
and osteoporosis and when someone finally decided to do a study on it [0][1],
these claims fell apart too. Vegans are another factor. People drink milk now
because they actually like, instead of drinking it for some dubious health
benefits. And that's fine.

[0]:
[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9224182](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9224182)
[1]:
[https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamapediatrics/fullarticle/...](https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamapediatrics/fullarticle/1769138)

------
ars
I read elsewhere that there is a massive overcapacity of milk right now. It's
part of the trade arguments between the US and Canada.

So I suspect very low milk prices probably didn't help.

Anecdotally it seems to me the market these days is for milk products like
Greek yogurt and aged cheeses.

Also, I was bored one day and watched a lot of dairy farm videos - it's become
very automated, where just a couple of people can manage an enormous herd of
cows, and the cows even have better living conditions than at typical farms.

So that probably drives the massive overproduction as well since it's so easy
to have a running farm.

~~~
porknubbins
And the Greek yogurt and cheese don’t see to be getting cheaper. I understand
like with 20 months aged parmesan that the warehouse time and labor probably
far outweigh the milk as input costs, but yogurt cmon, I’ve made it myself for
way cheaper (without economies of scale) but its still expensive for brand
names at the grocery store (like $8 for big jar).

~~~
thrower123
The weirdest thing about Greek yoghurt is that it is so hard to find any that
isn't ultra-low or nonfat. The only brand that seems to sell full-fat yoghurt
is Cabot, at least that I've seen. It's wildly better, and usually far lower
sugar.

~~~
koolba
Fage has a full fat variety that is stocked in just about every grocery store:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fage](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fage)

~~~
thrower123
Fage tops out at 5% fat. It'll do in a pinch, but it's nowhere near as good as
the Cabot 10%.

------
projektfu
Let them go. It’s the consolidated milk marketers that, in my opinion, have
driven most of the problems in the dairy industry.

~~~
anthony_doan
To be fair they filed for bankruptcy and arranged a loan to help keep the
pension in place.

I thought it was a nice gestures.

Most story like these I've seen the tax payers end up footing the bill for the
pension. A particular coal company that John Oliver's cover recently did the
same thing.

------
thorwasdfasdf
This is great news. Dairy, although it tastes incredibly delicious, is pretty
bad for people's health. Dairy is very closely linked to Liver Cancer (the
landmark china study), ovarian cancer, prostate cancer (very closely linked),
diabetes in children, etc. In forks over knives they even sited one study that
showed Dairy proteins (casein) could actually feed and active growth of
cancerous cells. In experiments they were able to turn on and off the
cancerous growth just by chaning the percentage of casein protein.

And, lets not forget milk increases the chance of osteoporosis and bone
fractures. prolonged ingestion of dairy leads to metabolic acidosis which
causes the body to leach calcium from the bones increasing the rate of bone
fractures. All that calcium in the milk can't be absorbed by the body anyways,
it just gets pissed out of the body: they've demonstrated this in labs by
measuring the amount of calcium that leaves the body after drinking milk. It's
much better to get your calcium from natural sources. there's so many foods
that are naturally high in calcium:
[https://kale.world/c](https://kale.world/c) (set the bar for calcium) leafy
green vegetables, Oranges, potatoes, kidney beans etc.

~~~
AnonC
Your claims are dubious. The Forks Over Knives study was on rats, not humans.
That milk increases osteoporosis or causes the body to leach calcium from the
bones are decades old myths that have no basis in science. Please check Dr.
Michael Greger’s videos or lookup what some vegan dietitians who follow
science have said. Myths like these cause more harm and eliminate trust. I say
this as someone who doesn’t want animals to be harmed.

~~~
thorwasdfasdf
the connection between dairy intake and bone fractures is undeniable. the
countries with the greatest milk intake also have the highest number of bone
fractures. And the links between dairy and cancer (especially prostate cancer)
are also very strong: there are numerous studies making this connection ~
check out what Dr. Milton Mills has to say on all this, he knows what he's
talking about.

------
YeGoblynQueenne
>> Once a staple of the American refrigerator, milk has slowly fallen out of
favor with consumers as they seek less-sugary or plant-based alternatives.

Call me a clueless European bumpkin but I was a bit shocked about that. Milk
in the US has sugar added to it.

Another comment explains that it's particularly low-fat milk that has sugar
added to it. But that's pointless. Supposedly one prefers low-fat milk because
it's more healthy. What's the point of adding sugar and making it less ealthy
again?

~~~
shawabawa3
All milk has sugar in it naturally (Lactose).

I don't think even in America they add sugar to it (I just chcked on walmart's
website and none of their milk lists added sugar in the ingredients)

~~~
YeGoblynQueenne
Yes, I thought of lactose, but the CNN article says consumers are looking for
"less-sugary" milk. Is that really what they mean by "sugary", that it has
lactose? I would have thought that "sugary" means, well, tasting of sugar, as
in sucrose, i.e. sweet.

For the record, this is the other comment I refer to:

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21522662](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21522662)

But there seems to be some disagreement about its accuracy.

~~~
shawabawa3
It's saying plant-based milks are a less-sugary alternative. That doesn't
imply that cow milk has added sugar, just that it has more sugar naturally
than e.g. oat or soy milk

------
torgian
“Conventional white milk”?

When is milk any other color?

~~~
crististm
Also "less sugary"?? Do they add sugar to shelf milk in US?

~~~
esotericsean
Yes they do, especially in lower fat milks like 1% or non-fat.

~~~
_n_b_
[citation needed]

I've never seen this, or heard of it happening. (Except chocolate or
strawberry milk.)

------
parrellel
Well, that buried the lede rather thoroughly. Walmart - it did throw them
under a bus.

~~~
dimino
Wait why is Walmart a bad guy here? Walmart isn't obligated to keep these
folks in business, relying on one customer is risky.

~~~
parrellel
... I was typing up a long reply about the excessive power and influence of
companies like Walmart, Amazon, or Apple (the app store) and the effects of
companies pursuing vertical monopolies and monocultures, but, seriously, do I
need to explain this?

~~~
dimino
Yes, but try to stay specific to this situation. How is Walmart obligated to
buy milk from one specific supplier forever?

You seem to want to go wide with this, but the question isn't a generic one;
it's very particular to Walmart, milk, and the claim that Walmart is somehow
_supposed_ to buy from Dean Foods, or else they're acting immorally.

~~~
parrellel
The issue here from the article, specifically, is Walmart cut them out of the
supply chain after building their own dairy plant - the buried lede, and
literally the last sentence.

So it follows: Walmart dropped Dean as a result of its continued efforts to
vertically integrate its supply chain. This kills Dean.

And given we are talking Walmart here, I feel pretty safe assuming it's the
key actor in this situation, not the 50 some million dollar almond milk
industry :P

~~~
dimino
Yes, those are the facts, but _why_ is that a problem? _Why_ is Dean the
responsibility of Walmart?

~~~
parrellel
That is a profoundly complicated question. The simplest answer is they aren't
responsible for Dean's bankruptcy, even though they might be _responsible_ for
the direct chain of events that lead to it. Walmart has caused a lot of
similar events in the past.

So, my position would be: Walmart is a paperclip optimizer and a bad neighbor,
and deserves to be called out for it whenever it does its thing.

~~~
dimino
Again, you went wide. Specifically, Walmart is _not_ responsible for Dean's
bankruptcy, which was all we were discussing.

~~~
parrellel
Between being forced to reduce margins to meet Walmart and other grocery
stores price points and then the sudden loss of 4% of their sales volume. I
feel pretty comfortable in the assertion.

/me shrugs.

~~~
dimino
That's because you're ignoring the actual article and the discussion around
the article and going on a tangential rant.

You're basically "feeling comfortable" derailing a conversation to talk about
what you want to talk about instead of the actual topic.

Classy.

~~~
parrellel
It's pretty trolly to draw someone into a conversation, continue to ask for
responses, and then accuse them of going off on a rant?

~~~
dimino
What's trolly is to derail a conversation, repeatedly trying to get on your
soapbox to parrot word association rants about a company that you agree did
nothing wrong in this specific situation.

------
crististm
The artificial increase in milk production by injecting cows with hormones
takes its toll after how many years? 30-40?

It did not matter that they (for your sample of 'they') caused health problems
to cows - including mastitis - and it also did not matter that the side-
effects of these hormones on human consumption were not fully considered.

One commercial that I clearly remember was by one of those "farmers" saying
that if you as a farmer do not inject your cow to increase milk production,
you are simply leaving money on the table.

------
mrarjen
> "accelerated decline in the conventional white milk category."

Overall it's not looking like people are drinking less milk, they simply want
more variety and this company seems to be having a hard time in all area's
from Walmart to slowly upcoming alternative milk replacers.

Seems also in part they haven't innovated enough in new types of product to
draw more customers.

~~~
Erlich_Bachman
Variety like what? Other non-milk white liquids? I think that is exactly what
they mean that "conventional" milk is on the decline.

~~~
mrarjen
Other non white milk type products, like milk based drinks with fruit flavors,
protein drinks or breakfast replacement options.

------
ohiovr
Skip the cows and just sell bottled water. Bottled water can cost more than
milk.

------
cies
As a vegan I rejoice. Consumer's reduced interest in dairy is going to reduce
cow's (and bull's) suffering significantly.

Hurray! I look fwd to many more animal-cruelty-corp bankruptcies.

~~~
crististm
Cows need to be milked or they will suffer.

Animal cruelty is when you inject them with hormones and cause them mastitis
as a justification to increase milk production.

~~~
igetspam
Cows need to lactate when they have calves. They're not unending milk
machines. They're like other mammals: they lactate to help their young
survive. If you don't take away their calf and beat it to death, it'll drink
all that milk and the mother cower won't suffer one bit. So is it just the
hormones that make this cruel? What happened to the calf and why isn't that
cruel?

------
kpU8efre7r
I love cow's milk but only buy local so I imagine this hurts large factory
dairy farms.

With that said, I doubt I could ever bring myself to stop drinking ethically
sourced milk. All of these plant based milks are overly processed, expensive,
and fortified with a bunch of nutrient junk that is lacking.

~~~
jamil7
Sorry but there is no such thing as ethical consumption of cow milk.

~~~
gambiting
How? My aunt has a cow(a single one) that lives next to her house, has access
to a pasture nearby, and by literally any definition you could pick it lives
as happy life as a cow can do(unless you subscribe to the idea that no animals
should be ever kept by humans, but I am not convinced that would lead to a
measurably better life for the cow). It produces a lot of milk that my aunt
uses for herself and her neighbours take some of it as well. How is that not
"ethical consumption of cow milk"?

~~~
zimbatm
It depends on where you place things on the moral scale.

For example for the cow to lactate, it needs to be inseminated. Every 4 years
I think. When the calf is born it's taken away from the mother. Does a cow
mother suffer emotionally from having their baby taken away?

Cows are sociable animals so a single cow would probably feel lonely?

I don't have the answers. It seems like research uncovers more and more human-
like emotions associated to animals so it doesn't seem completely out of
question. Humans also have a tendency to objectify things so they can shut off
empathy.

~~~
kaybe
There is a rare practice where you (for example) separate them just for the
night and milk the cow in the morning. During the day, the calf will take the
milk. Yes, you lose a lot of the milk that way, but apparently your vet bill
also goes down because the calf will be healthier.

Another option is to pool several calves to one cow and foster them for more
natural suckling behaviour. This is a bit more common.

Interestingly, apparently cows can choose to either give the milk or not which
makes the logistics more complicated.

I can currently only find sources in German for this though ('muttergebundene
Kälberaufzucht' / 'ammengebundene Kälberaufzucht').

