

NYC isn't catching the Valley anytime soon: Reflections on Startup School - akharris
http://blog.tutorspree.com/post/12165674875/nyc-isnt-silicon-valley

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PaulHoule
A big issue is that finance continues to draw the bright, ambitious and the
greedy away.

Somebody who founds a company worth $5 billion is royalty in Silicon Valley.
Around Wall Street you'll find fresh-faced kids with nothing more than degrees
from Andover and Yale running hedge funds bigger than that. Much more money
for much less work, risk and accomplishment.

You just can't make enough money from startups to impress people in NYC.

Other than that I'll say that NYC has the most formal dress code of anywhere
I've been. You can show up in "hacker costume" that includes clean denim and a
t-shirt that fits in any town other than NYC. In NYC, people ~will~ hold it
against you if you don't wear a button down, tie and all that.

My motto is "when in rome", but it's not an attitude that's welcoming of tech
talent.

~~~
endtwist
Funny, I don't know what NYC you experienced, but the one I live in has a much
wider variety of people than the types you've mentioned.

I know plenty of people that go to work in jeans and a t-shirt, and no one
holds it against them. Personally, I prefer to dress a little bit nicer; not
to mention that (other than during the summer), the weather dictates the dress
code to a large extent.

I could go on with more counter examples, but the point is, you have a very
narrow view of what NYC is actually like.

* P.S., re: Coffee: Try the Ace Hotel lobby on 29th between Broadway and 5th. There is an independently-run Stumptown Coffee shop attached (best coffee in NYC) and I'm there virtually every Sunday working on my laptop. With their free wifi. Along with about 20 other people doing the same thing.

~~~
codyrobbins
I just have to say, the best coffee in NYC is actually La Colombe on Lafayette
and Prince. I will buy you a cup if you haven’t tried it ;)

~~~
tensafefrogs
I'm gonna go with Gimme coffe. But stumptown is decent as well. La Colombe is
a little too bitter for my taste ;)

~~~
dzlobin
We at blip have been frequenting gimme!, but less so since Bowery Coffee
opened on Houston. You should really check that out, it's great.

~~~
veyron
Nope the best place is the The Pulp and The Bean in brooklyn. Ask for the
Dieci :)

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daeken
> P.S. - Cheap and accessible fiber. Come on NYC, we need that if we’re going
> to win.

Fiber coverage is pretty good now. Many buildings still don't have it, but
it's in most neighborhoods; my girlfriend has Fios and she's way out in
Queens, but I don't have it down in the East Village 'cause it isn't run into
my building yet. That said, fiber isn't the only game in town -- Roadrunner in
NYC has DOCSIS 3, and $100 gets you a 50Mbit connection, which I absolutely
adore.

~~~
kanwisher
Yeah I have verizon fios in the lower east side(albeit a new building) its
probably the fastest internet i've seen. You can either move to a building
with it or get a virtual office in the city that has fiber. Don't think its a
big limiting factor in nyc.

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tomjohnson3
whenever i read comments about nyc's best developers ultimately being sucked
into the vortex of finance, i want to gag.

i can only assume that these commenters haven't spent much quality time here
(or in finance - which is, for the most part, _not_ glamorous, but rather
soul-sucking)...or they have spent some time here and have a very limited view
of the city.

nyc is more than just wall street, "silicon alley" and midtown. i've worked in
several places (boston, london, atlanta, san fran)...and i've never come
across as rich a mixture of people who "make stuff" as i have in brooklyn.

on a related note: it'll be interesting if stanford ends up winning the bid to
open a campus in NYC. (i think the navy yard location would be perfect!)

btw, great coffee (and serendipity-friendly) spots in brooklyn: gorilla, cafe
grumpy, ...a new place called rucola (serves stumptown), and many many more.

~~~
jquery
Seeing as this is the top comment, could someone please back up this argument
beyond personal anecdote? At least the people arguing the other direction are
pointing at actual companies.

~~~
tomjohnson3
i'll throw down a few off the top of my head: foursquare, 10gen, etsy, a cool
one called makerbot, stackoverflow, etc, etc., etc. ...but there are lots of
little guys you probably haven't heard of yet popping out of columbia/nyu or
the great design schools like pratt/etc. or coming out of the larger companies
around here. it's actually an exciting time to be in the city...

listen, i love the valley. ...i just want people to know that _my_ nyc is a
creative and fun one. ...and you can live a happy/rich/fascinating existence
here without touching a line of fintech code.

~~~
jquery
And you've gotten your point across nicely. But that's not the conversation
here. It's whether it can catch up to the Valley anytime soon, a different
question entirely than whether there are cool little companies scattered
around. Here in San Francisco, you end up inside a tech company if you so much
as sneeze. Twitter is moving across the street from my apartment. When I walk
to get a sandwich I pass by several world-class tech companies and a dozen
startups. New York isn't even in the same league. Maybe someday it will be...
I hope so!

~~~
tomjohnson3
good points...i definitely get chills (in a good way) going down 101 or
walking around soma, etc., feeling the energy of the tech companies all around
me. it was definitely a motivating factor when i worked there. (lo those many
years ago.)

(btw, the other comments seem to focus more on the mythical finance vortex
here, which i'd love to debunk someday...hence the sidetrack.)

as for being in the "same league," i guess i dunno know what that means,
really - from the perspective of a person trying to get an idea off the
ground. (and i write this having started/sold one myself, been an early member
of a company that went public, been part of a flame-out...and been through
plenty of ups and downs over my startup-oriented tech career).

both have great access to capital...great engineers...pently of startups (not
a smattering) and plenty of spots for serendipitous meetings with interesting
people (we got plenty 'o those). ...i think the rest is pointless d#ck
measuring when it comes down to it. any location is really what u make of it
anyway - as long as you're not in a _bad_ one.

don't get me wrong, i'd love to just bump into ron conway or PG at my local
coffee spot. perhaps they'd visit the good people of brooklyn someday...over a
latte with a side of capacitors at the local hacker collective. ;-)

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tryitnow
Bottom line: In SV people who make stuff are respected. In NYC people who make
money are respected.

Obviously this is not true 100% across the board, but anyone who has
experienced both cities will immediately grok what I'm talking about.

~~~
michaelpinto
That sometimes true and you've hit the head on the nail in some cases -- but
it also depends on what you're making. NYC really respects creatives -- be
they actors or designers or writers in a way that you wouldn't see in the
valley.In fact while Hollywood respects the hit making skills of creatives, I
think NYC is unique in respecting creativity itself.

~~~
ArbitraryLimits
I agree - NYC definitely respects _flamboyantly_ creative people, who are just
as interested in making their image as in making their art (for whatever value
of art), but "hackers" don't really seem to fit that mould.

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jonprins
Re: "Coffee Klatch."

Sure, we need more of these around. I'm just happy there's a place like this
that fits the bill right in my neighborhood. It's more of a cafe than a coffee
shop, but that didn't stop the owner from putting dual power plugs in between
every couple of seats at the bar. And getting a darn fast wifi connection.

That they make some of the best drip coffee in the area, and serve brunch 7
days a week, combined with affordable prices...

The owner has a coffee shop too, but it's too cramped to work in all day. He
recognized that people were starting to try to do that there - and kept it in
mind when he opened up this cafe. During a typical weekday, the bar is filled
with people with laptops open.

~~~
jinp6301
Where is this? Been looking for a decent coffee shop/cafe to work in for a
while now.

~~~
tensafefrogs
I always see a bunch of people w/ laptops at the Bar at Cocoa bar:
<http://www.yelp.com/biz/cocoa-bar-new-york>

Also there's usually a couple laptops out at Coyi Cafe up the streeet on Ave
B.

Though I do agree that there's a shortage of good spots to hang out w/ a
laptop for a few hours during the week daytime.

(not that this has any effect in my mind as to whether NY is better than SF
for startups, but whatever)

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oldstrangers
I think Austin is the next tech hub. The weather is better than NYC, vibrant
food scene, large pool of talent/graduating students, readily available
cheap/24hr food and coffee (especially near campus).

~~~
jjb123
I just got to Austin, and may be leaving at the beginning of the year, but as
a city, the place is unreal. It's now bigger than San Francisco, but still
feels like a town, which I prefer... Nothing like the Valley, but they say
2011 was kind of a watershed moment for the Austin tech scene with three web-
based companies going public (shift away from enterprise tech). We'll see how
that goes back into the ecosystem...

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treetrouble
_Walk into a coffee shop in Palo Alto (say…Coupa). Pull out your computer,
open your gmail or git or twitter. Now leave and try another shop. And
another. Go try that in NYC before researching exactly which shop has WiFi._

This is easier to do in Williamsburg, Brooklyn than Palo Alto

edit: to prove the point, here's the free wifi list from yelp for wburg and
greenpoint just to show how common it is

<http://bit.ly/uAEJhd>

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rmorrison
I've lived in both NY and Silicon Valley. I think the best description of the
difference in mentality is:

In NYC, if you can make a million dollars cool, but it's even better if you
screw somebody out of a million at the same time. In Silicon Valley, if you
make a million dollars cool, but it's even better if you help somebody else
make a million at the same time.

~~~
tomjohnson3
honestly, do these people look like they want to screw you out of your first
million?

<http://hackerspaces.org/wiki/NYC_Resistor>

;-)

look at all those happy/helpful people, ready to volunteer their time and
emotional shares to help you get your project off the ground. (and this is
only one great hacker spot in the city.)

in my experience (~10 years in manhattan+brooklyn)...these are the kinds of
people/groups that are here...looking to build stuff and have fun.

...but, of course, in a place as large as this, you'll find all types. (as you
do in the valley too, really.)

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kloncks
_Walk into a coffee shop in Palo Alto (say…Coupa). Pull out your computer,
open your gmail or git or twitter. Go try that in NYC before researching
exactly which shop has WiFi._

Interesting point. Was at Coupa just this weekend. Couldn't get Wifi :)

~~~
dasil003
Yeah they turn it off on the weekend to encourage conversation, but if you ask
real nice sometimes you can get 'em to turn it on.

~~~
akharris
And you can usually pull in a signal from Old Pro...

~~~
dasil003
Never had luck with that one. Maybe it's the aluminum mac body? Anyway, I got
an N1 and that has pretty much solved this for me worldwide.

------
bgruber
could someone explain to me why it's relevant for ny startups to have
billboards? i just don't understand that point at all.

~~~
antoinehersen
It reflects the cultural value of the environment.

------
Rickasaurus
I haven't found NYC Wifi to be a problem. Just the other day I was in Penn and
got an emergency phone call. I just hopped into Stackbucks and did my thing
with no problems at all. While there was no seating, the Wifi was just fine.

Now, if you're looking for a place to work you might want to look into co-
working instead. In NYC the shops just can't afford to have you sitting there
taking up space all day for $10 worth of coffee.

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conductrics
Other than how it affects your chance of success, this seems a little silly.
#1 #2 .. who cares? Why get all tribal about your city? There are tons of
industries here in NYC, so if you are targeting your offering to larger
businesses, then there are worse places than NYC to be close to your
customers. If not, and you are doing 'Social Toilet' or whatever, then it
might make sense to go elsewhere.

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DannoHung
Ramen profitable in NYC is lame compared to elsewhere. That's why it's not
going to happen. End of story.

Now, I could totally see Jersey getting Valleyish if it weren't for the stigma
of Jersey.

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papercruncher
"Coffee Klatch"

I'm struggling to find a coffee shop in San Francisco that has unlimited wifi
and stays open late, where late >= midnight. Suggestions?

~~~
ardit33
Starbucks at Laurel Height is open 24hr (California and Laurel St,
<http://www.yelp.com/biz/starbucks-san-francisco-132>).

It is hard to find seats before midnight, as it is full of students, but it is
as nice as a starbucks get.

Since it is so popular, starbucks tried to open another 24hr location close
by, but there was a lot of opposition from local coffee places, so they didn't
get a permit.

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TWSS
Re: fiber. I wonder how much of this has to do with NYC's older
infrastructure. Does Boston boast better access?

~~~
ominous_prime
Does it matter so much, when you can put your servers in a local co-lo
facility which will have fiber terminations for the big ISPs? As long as your
office has reliable connections, I don't see the problem.

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rzbn
NYC needs a consumer startup to go big. Think a company the with the size and
popularity of FB but based %100 in nyc. Right now we got nothing.

~~~
ryanb
We do have Tumblr, Etsy, and Foursquare - but I agree, a Facebook size company
coming out of New York would do wonders for the ecosystem.

~~~
coyled
> We do have Tumblr, Etsy, and Foursquare...

But would you know that if you weren't already plugged into the tech scene? I
don't recall seeing a sign outside of Foursquare's building. Etsy had a
handmade sign taped to some windows you couldn't see from the street unless
you knew to look for it. 111 8th Ave doesn't have a big Google sign out front.
There's no big Vimeo or OkCupid, etc., etc., signs outside IAC's headquarters.
I don't believe Tumblr has a sign out front. In fact, the only tech company
sign I recall seeing on the side of a building in NYC was Squarespace before
they moved (I don't know if their new place has a sign). Compare that to
walking around Soma or driving down the 101.

Most people probably have no idea there are well-known tech companies based
here.

~~~
rzbn
There are also a few well known blogs based here namely, Engadget and
Mashable.

