
Amazon Career Choice Program - ryanwjackson
http://www.amazon.com/gp/help/customer/display.html/ref=amb_link_1?ie=UTF8&nodeId=200979350&view-type=stand-alone&pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_s=gateway-center-column&pf_rd_r=1RWZQ2HKJPYQ2YKQ0XX2&pf_rd_t=101&pf_rd_p=1385640982&pf_rd_i=507846
======
lizthegrey
I'm cynical about this for the following reasons:

* Amazon's line workers who do picking/packing are not Amazon employees, but instead are temp contractors.

* Even if they were employees of Amazon, they frequently are laid off or fired for failure to meet unrealistic performance standards within a year or so, meaning they'll never reach the 3 years required.

I don't think this actually will impact very many people. It's a nice gesture,
but I'm curious to see how many employees actually currently qualify for this
program.

[http://www.mcall.com/news/local/mc-allentown-amazon-
complain...](http://www.mcall.com/news/local/mc-allentown-amazon-
complaints-20110917,0,7937001,full.story) "Temporary employees interviewed
said few people in their working groups actually made it to a permanent Amazon
position. Instead, they said they were pushed harder and harder to work faster
and faster until they were terminated, they quit or they got injured. Those
interviewed say turnover at the warehouse is high and many hires don't last
more than a few months."

------
fomojola
Can't hate them for the gesture, but it is just that: a gesture. It all sounds
nice, but reading the actual fine print at
[http://www.amazon.com/gp/help/customer/display.html/ref=amb_...](http://www.amazon.com/gp/help/customer/display.html/ref=amb_link_1?ie=UTF8&nodeId=200979350&view-
type=stand-alone&pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_s=gateway-center-
column&pf_rd_r=1M0PABF9DFXF83S75C62&pf_rd_t=101&pf_rd_p=1385640982&pf_rd_i=507846),
they'll give you up to $2000 a year. Not exactly covering much, particularly
given current educational costs.

~~~
cperciva
I know the US has astronomical tuition fees for "academic" college/university
programs, but this explicitly doesn't apply to those -- it's for _vocational_
training.

What are tuition fees like at the sort of community colleges which offer part-
time vocational programs?

~~~
VLM
"What are tuition fees like at the sort of community colleges which offer
part-time vocational programs"

The school I attended didn't really have the concept of "full vs part time" it
was solely credit hours with one minor little exception of $7.50 for liability
insurance per semester no matter how many or few credits.

Fifteen years ago when I got my near worthless associates it was approx $1000
for 16 credits per semester. Next fall its exactly $1870.40 for the same 16
credits, however there is a MINIMUM material fee and MINIMUM activity fee
adding up to at least $176 per class, even if the class involves no materials
or activities. Also there is a mandatory liability insurance fee for all
students tacked on at the end of the bill (Student has coverage if during
carpentry class he drives a nail thru his classmates hand, that type of
thing). If you take classes online its an extra $160, apparently its extremely
expensive to heat and cool a virtual classroom... or some BS like that. It
would be very difficult to escape below $2100 per semester at full time, so
lets call it $1050 in the fall of 2012 for half/part time per semester (at 3
semesters per year)

The killer problem is I've never found a corporate employer who cares about AS
degrees... considered no different than graduating high school. Perhaps Amazon
is the first employer I've ever heard of who cares about a AS degree. My
entire career has been about knowing people and no one cared about my AS
degree. Now that I've been out in the world for awhile, no one cares about the
BS degree I later received, either.

The "electronics telecommunications" AS degree requirements were basically the
standard EE curricula minus about 64 credits of liberal arts and electives
(the suggested curricula had only one possible elective... Instead of
photography or whatever I chose microcontroller programming, crazy me). They
had a variety of options where you could transfer into the local public or
private engineering school after your AS to get your BSEE degree, basically 64
credits of history/fine arts/writing/foreign language/etc plus a little extra
math and science (diffeqs, second semester physics, those are the only two
"technical" classes I can remember as requirements).

------
GuiA
From what I've heard, read and experienced, I'd argue that Amazon (or at least
its Seattle HQ) is likely the company that offers the best benefits. And real
benefits that affect the employees' lives, not things like beanbags in every
office and foosball table.

One of my best friends recently got hired by Amazon. I won't disclose his full
benefits+relocation package because that's private to him, but it included
many little things that just make it feel like Amazon deeply cares about its
employees: for example, they paid a special recruiter to help his fiance find
a job in Seattle, bought a plane ticket for his cat's relocation (the devil is
in the details), and so on.

~~~
danshapiro
Having had firsthand experience with Google and Microsoft, and secondhand
reports about Amazon from many friends who've worked there, I think Amazon is
the lowest of the three for benefits - although all three are spectacular when
compared with average companies.

Both Microsoft and Google have similar white-glove treatment for relocation.
For example, when I was recruited to MS out of college, I got a gift bag of
scuba gear and a call from a local dive shop because I asked the recruiter
about diving in the area. Microsoft paid for movers to pack me and ship
everything, while my dorm-mates looked on with envy.

Google, in turn, makes Microsoft look stingy. Everything you've heard is true
and then some. Random example: most BigCos have top-notch coverage if you have
international problems while traveling on business, provided by an expert 3rd
party. Google extends this to international travel you may take for pleasure.

Amazon is very good by the standards of all companies, but not particularly
notable when held up to its closest competition.

~~~
BadassFractal
On that note, I think Amazon's tuition reimbursement is also more meager than
that of Microsoft's, if not absent altogether. MS is happy to cover something
close to 10k a year for your graduate degree.

~~~
_delirium
That's comparing very differently compensated employees, though. This Amazon
program is for hourly employees, such as warehouse staff. My guess is that
Microsoft's willingness to pay $10k/yr for graduate tuition only extends to
their salaried white-collar employees, unless they treat their hourly staff a
lot better than I'd realized.

~~~
eli_gottlieb
Amazon doesn't give tuition assistance for white-collar salaried engineers at
all.

Source: my Amazon offer from Fall 2010.

------
uuilly
I worked at Boeing for 4 years and they paid for pretty much any education you
wanted and as much of it as you wanted. It's not that abnormal for big
companies to do this.

~~~
supercanuck
Yep this is pretty why UW Bothell exists today.

------
kunle
From the FAQ Link:
[http://www.amazon.com/gp/help/customer/display.html/ref=amb_...](http://www.amazon.com/gp/help/customer/display.html/ref=amb_link_1?ie=UTF8&nodeId=200979350&view-
type=stand-alone&pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_s=gateway-center-
column&pf_rd_r=0ECBRRR9EJJ6YSYYRP85&pf_rd_t=101&pf_rd_p=1385640982&pf_rd_i=507846)

> What are the maximum benefits under the program? Amazon will pay up to 95%
> of the tuition, textbook and associated fees up to a maximum of $2,000 per
> year for four years.

Better than nothing, though I wonder how expensive the courses are for those
fields?

~~~
tikhonj
Well, if you're going to a California community college (I think that's the
sort of courses this program is aimed at), you would pay $36/unit. A full time
student would take 12 units for a total cost of $432.[1] Things like textbooks
are extra but obviously vary a ton depending on the courses you choose and how
clever you are buying them.

[1]: <http://www.cccapply.org/faq/costs.asp>

Assuming you're not actually going to be doing a full 12 units--a reasonable
assumption here, I think--the $2000 limit should suffice.

I don't know about more specific vocational schools or anything like that.

------
codeonfire
Anyone making warehouse worker wages will probably qualify for over $10k in
Pell grants immediately to complete an AS just by enrolling now, not in three
years. Many programs are fully funded with scholarships and grants. Even if
the person doesn't qualify for Pell or scholarships, They could borrow the $2k
and living expenses, complete the program, and repay the loan well before the
five years it would take them to get a two year degree under this plan. Those
same students can also take the $2500 American Opportunity Tax Credit and
start the AS program right now.

------
danshapiro
I'm pleased to hear that Amazon is doing this. It seems like a change of pace
from their past treatment of temps
([http://www.theatlanticwire.com/technology/2011/12/seasonal-w...](http://www.theatlanticwire.com/technology/2011/12/seasonal-
workers-amazons-grueling-working-conditions-are-only-temporary/46426/)) and
absence of philanthropic activity
([http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/businesstechnology/201...](http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/businesstechnology/2017883663_amazonmain25.html)).

~~~
potatolicious
The cult internally at Amazon, in response to constant attacks regarding the
lack of corporate philanthropy, is actually a _hostile_ attitude towards
corporate philanthropy.

Internally, amongst the die-hard adherents, corporate philanthropy is seen as
tyranny - pushing private agendas and priorities on the entire employee base
who "pay into" such donations. The refrain that philanthropy runs counter to
the obligation to maximize shareholder value, is also used often.

It's kind of a weird attitude, but while I was at Amazon I got swept in it
too. In hindsight it's all very Stockholm-y.

~~~
eli_gottlieb
Sounds like Jeff Bezos confuses himself with John Galt.

------
mathattack
It's better than nothing, but look at the target... $1 and hour of educational
benefit ($2000/year divided by 2000 hours/day) is great for someone making $8
an hour. That's a 12.5% raise off the cuff. Apply it to someone making 100K,
and it's a lot less.

Some big companies do full tuition reimbursement, but the # is shrinking over
time.

~~~
jmduke
I don't expect any Amazon employees who are making 100K to need a subsidized
associates degree, though.

~~~
eli_gottlieb
Many of Amazon's competitors in the employment market, however, offer tuition
reimbursement for MSc or PhD degrees.

------
nirvana
Having worked for Microsoft and Amazon, there is a reason that so many
engineers go to work for Microsoft, or Google, after working at Amazon for
awhile. It isn't just that they offer better benefits than Amazon.

I do not think this program will compensate for everything else when it comes
to associates. Associates are not respected by management.

Frankly, this is because Amazon does not respect employees. Full Stop. (or
suppliers, or anyone really. They only treat customers well because it is
profitable. It is kinda funny that Zappos got bought by them, since Tony's
ideology is the polar opposites of Bezos, but maybe Tony is just
propagandizing the way Bezos makes himself out to be a visionary.)

Amazon is like the cult of scientology: It sounds really great on the way in,
but well before you get to the verbal abuse, the death marches, denial of
sleep and the beatings[1] you realize it was all a lie.

They do roll out the red carpet treatment in the early days for people that a
manager insists need it.

But they operate on stack ranking, are completely political, anti-innovation,
and really they are very much like a cult, with their own reality distortion
field and magical sayings. "Its day one!"

For contrast: Over the 25 years of my professional career, I have worked for a
lot of startups. Many of them were poorly run, simply because the management
was in well over their heads. There's a huge difference between management
being well intentioned and over their heads and what I experienced at Amazon.
Management at amazon is pathological, because Amazon is designed as a Lord of
The Flies experiment, not a company.

I've also worked for Microsoft and a number of other big companies. Big
companies have Big company suckage syndrome, and Microsoft has management
problems. But again it is sorta like management ends up being a bit
incompetent in areas where they shouldn't, not evil. Microsoft was also a
little bit of a cult but a pretty mild one. Both companies practice the "once
you've turned your back on the cult you're unclean" police though.

One important lie: "If you don't like where you are at amazon, you can move to
another department." Despite getting an offer from the cutting edge part of
AWS, my manager naturally blocked it because he was losing too many people
(%60 of the team left by the time I left, because he was a total abusive
asshole who knew nothing about computers, let a lone programming.) So, I
resigned. (This was also after I'd tried to resolve the issue by going to HR,
only to discover that HR told my manager everything I said, despite offering
confidence, and thus he knew I wasn't going to lie to cover up his misdeeds.)

Just FYI, my manager at Amazon was a drug dealer who dealt to other amazon
employees in the parking garage next to PacWest. He's had a wonderful career
there because his boss is also incompetent, and the incompetence goes all the
way to the top, and he's really effective at blaming others for his problems
(like, you know, being a drug addict and forgetting to tell his team to do
stuff.)

Incompetence is irritating. But that said, I had great experiences at a lot of
companies, and at least perfectly fine ones at almost all the places I worked.
I don't particularly like Microsoft, really, but I would never warn someone
off working there.

Amazon is the only place I've ever taken the time to warn people against. Some
people work there and do fine because they end up working for a manager who
knows what a loop is. There are even largish groups like that (namely AWS).
But that doesn't change the fact that there are whole divisions run by asshole
bozos as well.

Amazon's crime is not in hiring an asshole bozo and putting him in charge of
programmers. It is in letting him drive out %60 of his team and then promoting
him. It is the culture that lets such a terrible person thrive. That culture
is what makes Amazon a terrible place to work, because it is completely up to
chance whether you will be treated decently or not.

[1] I wasn't beaten. If I had been, I would have sued. Everything else is an
accurate description of the experience.

~~~
c2
Sounds like you just had a bad manager. At a big company (like Amazon) there
are good managers and bad managers. I'm sure your opinion would be different
if you actually made it to the AWS group like you wanted.

You're turning a bad experience with a single manager into a personal vendetta
against the company as a whole. I have friends who work there who work normal
hours (and have for years) and they even said they feel like they are more
respected employees as engineers then the business owners.

~~~
potatolicious
> _"At a big company (like Amazon) there are good managers and bad managers."_

This is a lousy excuse and doesn't stand up to scrutiny. I too had a bad
manager at Amazon. So did my roommate. So did my friends in the company. So
did his friends.

In fact, I was a returning intern who went back full-time with _dozens_ of
other employees, and here we are 3 years in... and practically no one remains.
I can count the number of people who have stuck around on a single hand.

Look into Amazon's employee attrition rate. Eye-opening. Hell, if you can, go
to one of the company all-hands, where at some point they encourage new
employees to stand up (hired in the last quarter)... that's not company
growth, that's replenishment.

Amazon has consistently one of the _worst_ retention rates, if not _the very
worst_ out of all the tech "majors". The problematic management is incredibly
pervasive, and I'd argue that the islands of sound management are the
exception, not the rule.

Be very, very, very wary of working for Amazon.

~~~
c2
Also be wary about anecdotes from previous employees who feel slighted by the
company, because they are usually passionately vitriolic and have a bone to
pick :)

~~~
potatolicious
It's _weird_ how many isolated anecdotes from different people, each one
passionately vitriolic about the company, that we run into _everywhere_ in the
software engineering community.

It's also pretty weird how _many_ ex-Amazon employees I know who would never,
ever go back, regardless of the size of the paycheck.

Either there's an organized hit job against Amazon as an employer, and myself
and nirvana (among many, many others) are all shills.

Or perhaps the notion that Amazon, as a whole, is a heavily mismanaged
company, has some merit ;) Food for thought.

