
A Secret Recording Reveals Oil Executives’ Private Views on Climate Change - jbegley
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/09/12/climate/methane-natural-gas-flaring.html
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cmehdy
I know they really need to ensure that they can buy their fourth house, but
this sort of stuff is revealing just how much disconnect there is between
those who push for oil and the coming generation:

“What’s our message going forward?” Mr. Ness said. “What’s going to stick with
those young people and make them support oil and gas?”

Nothing, old man. Nothing. We'd need at least one covid per year to stay in
line with the Paris agreements emissions-wise, and that would only curb the
damage to a minimal amount. We're driving into a wall the size of a mountain,
and we can't bother to decrease our ACCELERATION, let alone to actually SLOW
DOWN.

Younger generations are increasingly voicing how tired they are of the apathy
about this issue - or sometimes, like in this case, downright evil approach to
energy needs and climate change.

If you want "those young people" to support your ass, use your lobbying powers
to turn to nuclear for controllable energy and renewables for the rest. But
that means no fourth house for you, huge investments upfront, and actually
morals..

~~~
fartcannon
As a former young man, and current middle aged man, my perspectice is this:
Those old men were young people once, not long ago. You might not compromise
your values, but in reality, you probably will. And your peers definitely
will. A few generations will grow up and suddenly, you're the bad guy because,
oh I dunno, all your cell phones and tablets used up all the bismuth or
something. And you'll get old one day too, desperately holding onto the thing
that lets you retire. Again maybe not you, but your peers will.

That said, it's not that you shouldnt keep trying, it's just interesting how
it happens. We should break the cycle of blame, and make a lateral move to
create the future we want on a new path.

It makes me think, "Render unto Ceasar".

~~~
cmehdy
I'm a "former young man" too. There is no age to be acting well or badly with
regards to this debate, and there isn't even an absolute metric for how well
or badly one does when it comes to the issue.

But I know I don't need to change to a new smartphone every year, likewise for
my laptop.

I know the next time I get a smartphone (in years), I'll be much more likely
to accept something of lesser polish for something which allows me to replace
parts easily.

I know that my beef consumption is not an essential part of my life in the
sense that I'd die without it, it's an accessory of pure hedonism, and I still
don't entirely avoid eating a good steak every once in a while but I put
mental efforts into curbing such consumption.

I keep in mind very strongly the strategy I want to adopt regarding the place
I live in and the places I could work at, such that at equal levels of
satisfaction I don't pigeon-hole myself into a place where a car would be an
absolute necessity. Each person's strategy can change, but things to take into
account include access to public transportation, remote work even partially,
only partly using a car along the way if really necessary, and so on.

I'm keenly aware of the amount of plastic packaging around me and whenever I
can I will prefer avoiding such products. Likewise for anything that can be
refilled: do you really need to buy the same container for your detergent over
and over again? Why not refill it if you can? etc.

I keep in mind all those issues when the time comes to vote, and in my own way
strive to encourage this sort of awareness in the people supposed to represent
me.

-

The list is entirely dependent on each person, but you can only start to make
that list and to think constructively if you acknowledge the problem and leave
aside nihilism and apathy.

I don't want kids, but that doesn't prevent me from having the awareness that
the things I do (or don't do) can and will hurt other people's kids. Using my
age as an excuse to not give a crap is disingenuous. Using the observation
that others aren't pulling their weight either is disingenuous. I can't force
others to do something but I can change what I do.

~~~
camjohnson26
This post misses the point of what it’s replying to. Parent comment admitted
that individuals can live responsibly, but that the bigger problem is a cycle
where each generation protects its own lifestyle and blames the older people
for what they’ll one day do themselves.

~~~
cmehdy
And you're missing the fact that what the current generations in power are
doing is not sustainable in the sense that regardless of what young
generations do right now, they DEFINITELY won't be having the lifestyle that
we're having today.

It doesn't matter what their kids end up blaming on them afterwards, we won't
be there to see it. The defeatist attitudes about the now are cop-outs though,
because WE are living in the now.

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tasty_freeze
Many free market people complain about restrictive laws, but I 100% believe if
there wasn't a law prohibiting, say, putting lead in food or dumping mercury
into the water table, there would be CEOs who wouldn't hesitate to do those
things if it made them a little bit of money, despite knowing how awful the
consequences are.

Likewise, there is nothing which will stop CEOs from ruining the environment
unless the externalities of their industries cost them money. It doesn't
matter how many scientific pronouncements are made or if the CEOs of gas and
oil companies know in their heart of hearts what they are doing has terrible
long term consequences, they will continue on the current course.

Yes, individuals can help by choosing to driving less and changing their
thermostat, but many/most won't do enough. The most free market solution is to
make the polluting companies pay for their externalities. Yes, dividends will
go down. Yes, the costs of some goods will go up, but only up to their true
costs since we won't be giving the companies a free pass to use the atmosphere
as a trash can. Once things have their full costs baked in, everyone will
adjust their consumption, not just the environmentally conscious. I doubt even
that is enough, but it is more than we are currently doing.

~~~
dencodev
It's very telling that we _had_ to create child labor laws. Someone had to be
told that it was immoral and strictly forbidden from doing it.

------
indy
“It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends
on his not understanding it.”

― Upton Sinclair

~~~
qubex
I always thought that was due to Oscar Wilde but he gets credit for anything
witty by default.

~~~
throw0101a
* [https://quoteinvestigator.com/2017/11/30/salary/](https://quoteinvestigator.com/2017/11/30/salary/)

------
kbos87
There’s so much attention aimed at proving climate change deniers wrong, or
proving that petroleum executives know that climate change is real. These are
valid pursuits, but I worry that they are also a convenient object of our
anger. Really turning the tide on climate change is going to require everyone
in modern society to swallow some tough pills around our daily routines and
consumption patterns. Aiming all of our anger and blame and attention at
corporations producing products that support the way of life we aren’t willing
to change is denial and a waste of time.

~~~
inamberclad
Most people don't have a choice about how much they pollute. Can't get
anywhere without burning gas, can't buy anything that doesn't come wrapped in
plastic. The choices were made for us.

~~~
kbos87
I agree that some choices were made for us, but abdicating any personal
responsibility In favor of anger at someone else strikes me as lazy and
defeatist thinking. Many people in industrialized nations make choices every
day and have full control over their own behavior - how they get around, what
they eat, how and how often they travel, the brands they engage with...
sitting and waiting for the problem to be solved for us is what’s gotten us
nowhere.

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beervirus
1\. These aren’t oil executives. They’re lobbyists.

2\. There’s nothing in here about their private views on climate change.
They’re talking about how they’re worried people will _perceive_ the flaring
of natural gas.

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rudiv
It's amazing how many people have swallowed the line that stopping
anthropogenic global warming is mostly about individual choices when there is
clear evidence to show that the very same idea has been propagated primarily
by the industries responsible for the majority of pollution.

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wcerfgba
If you would like to help to solve the climate crisis, you may be interested
in [https://climateaction.tech/](https://climateaction.tech/)

If you have any other useful resources, please reply :)

~~~
justcomments12
Maybe
[https://geoengineering.environment.harvard.edu/geoengineerin...](https://geoengineering.environment.harvard.edu/geoengineering)

getting pure co2 from the air is profitable, because it is used in soda etc.
The challenge is to get it pure, but climate is a huge business opportunity

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x87678r
The real issue is how come gas is $2 a gallon still? Its unbelievably cheap. I
ran AC pretty much full time the whole summer and the bill was $400. Energy is
way too cheap in the US.

~~~
dencodev
Still nearly $4 here on west coast

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rdlecler1
Pesky toxic waste. We should just dump it in the river.

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ryanmarsh
I guarantee similar conversations have been had at all large companies with
negative externalities: tech, pharma, banks, etc...

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gdubs
Tl;dr, companies would rather not spend money complying with methane
regulations. They’d rather try and win the messaging war. This is largely
about the gas escaping during oil drilling. Big companies are more willing to
play by the rules than the small companies.

The execs made jokes about hippies “wanting to change the world” until they
grew up, got jobs, and bought BMWs.

It’s not the bombshell alluded to in the headline, but it’s somewhat
interesting. Perhaps most interesting is their realization that activists are
winning on the emotional messaging, and they need a shift in strategy.

------
merricksb
[https://archive.md/YGrVx](https://archive.md/YGrVx)

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tito
The greatest resistance to solving climate change is the people who know it's
happening, want to do something, but don't know where to start. All this other
stuff is noise.

Let's go!

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rbrbr
Where can this recording being downloaded?

------
samfisher83
.

~~~
XorNot
This is both untrue and incredibly _unproductive_ \- born of a mishmash of
puritan morals and modern problems.

Do you use a dishwasher? You should. They use less water and less energy per
wash then any human washing by hand. Yet people instinctively seem to think
hand washing is better because it's harder work.

No amount of energy use reduction is going to make a shred of difference if
all our power comes from coal. Period. Everything else is secondary and non-
fundamental: solar panels can be manufactured cleanly, and the consequences of
mishandling still only pollute _locally_ \- serious, but not an uncontrollable
global problem.

Environmentalism of the "we must sacrifice" nature is being pushed by idiots
on the left and corporates on the right: the left feels it's honest because
it's hard, the right knows that no one will do it but boy does it shift blame
away from them and encourage populism and dismissal in public discourse.

~~~
danans
> Environmentalism of the "we must sacrifice" nature is being pushed by idiots
> on the left and corporates on the right: the left feels it's honest because
> it's hard, the right knows that no one will do it

I totally agree with your broader point that we shouldn't rely on individual
behavior change, but I think you are using a dated perspective of the left and
the right.

The modern left is actually proposing massive green infrastructure spending in
order to shift the country's energy production away from fossil fuels (aka the
Green New Deal).

The modern right has turned the use of fossil fuels into an identity politics
issue, as if you become less American somehow if you use less coal and
petroleum to power your life.

The corporations are going where their business models and customer
constituencies take them, which is why tech has invested heavily in
renewables, and fossil fuel companies have balkanized around their products.
The automobile industry is in limbo between the two, with a foot in both
worlds.

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qubex
I’ve been in morally compromising situations before... so whereas I
commiserate the situation these people are in I cannot bring myself to condemn
them.

Most public outrage is in the manufacture of caricatures and the failure to
engage in nuance.

Alright, light me up.

~~~
danans
Criticism should be proportional to power.

These are very rich, politically influential people, not nobodies like you and
me on this message board.

Their lobbying power by sheer dollar might as individuals and industries
dwarfs that of most people. Therefore they they should be condemned when they
are revealed in a lie involving the use of that power and influence,
especially when that influence is changing rules to allow them to release
massive quantities of methane into the atmosphere, worsening climate change.

