
Drones flying nighttime patterns over NE Colorado leave law enforcement stumped - jhayward
https://www.denverpost.com/2019/12/23/drones-mystery-colorado/
======
FrozenVoid
Could it be new Thz radars being tested? They could fit in a large drone
easily and be used for close flight formation(they have collision detection)
and also to scan nearby terrain(they penetrate vegetation cover).
[https://e2e.ti.com/blogs_/b/industrial_strength/archive/2017...](https://e2e.ti.com/blogs_/b/industrial_strength/archive/2017/08/22/using-
mmwave-technology-to-enable-sense-and-avoidance-in-drones)
[https://www.foxtechfpv.com/77ghz-millimeter-wave-obstacle-
av...](https://www.foxtechfpv.com/77ghz-millimeter-wave-obstacle-avoidance-
radar.html) (similar stuff costs about 300$, but these drones have probably
something much more powerful and heavier, for military or government agencies)
[https://www.i-micronews.com/radar-to-spot-the-bad-guys-
from-...](https://www.i-micronews.com/radar-to-spot-the-bad-guys-from-on-
high/) (China is developing something similar too) “We mounted a prototype on
a drone and recently conducted test flights in Shaanxi province,” Li said. “A
typical application of the radar in the future can be drone-based to help with
large-scale detection of explosive-carrying terrorists or the placement of
improvised explosive devices. This will be much more efficient and safer than
deploying a lot of security personnel to do the same work.”

~~~
Razengan
> to spot the bad guys

> large-scale detection

> terrorists

 _sigh..._

------
michaelbuckbee
My thought is that they're nongovernmental groups looking for illegal
marijuana growing operations that they'll competitively harvest.

[https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2014/09/the-s...](https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2014/09/the-
secret-pot-growing-operations-in-americas-cornfields/375913/)

~~~
tgflynn
If what they're doing is tied to illegal activity, you wouldn't think they'd
be flying with collision avoidance lights.

~~~
michaelbuckbee
Plausible deniability - they’re just doing ‘monitoring for deforestation’ or
doing ‘speculative land investment’ if anybody does track them down.

------
ynniv
It may currently be legal, but this isn't an acceptable long term framework.
If you're flying below the regulation ceiling, you should need a line of sight
operator and landowner approval. Above that you should need a transponder and
rough flight plan – just like regular aviation. At no point should an
operation be opaque to local law enforcement.

~~~
sathackr
If there is no property being damaged, no law being violated, why does law
enforcement need to be involved at all?

Law enforcement doesn't have to have an answer or info about every single
event.

If I'm driving a car down the highway, law enforcement doesn't need to know
where I am going or why. I'm not breaking any laws and not infringing on
anyone's rights.

As a pilot I can go fly my plane at any altitude I wish as long as I am not
entering any controlled airspace. I don't have to ask or tell anyone what I'm
doing.

So why do they need to know why I'm flying my drone and where I'm going?

~~~
objclxt
> As a pilot I can go fly my plane at any altitude I wish as long as I am not
> entering any controlled airspace.

Well, no. That’s not true. Firstly there are rules about the altitude you can
fly at when it’s greater than 3000’, and second you are _required_ to file a
flight plan any time you are flying IFR.

~~~
godelski
They specified "controlled airspace". Those rules you are talking about are
controlled airspace. The previous comment clearly doesn't explicitly mean
class A. It's too complicated to say anything but controlled airspace because
that varies all over and can frequently extent up to class A.

And why are you bring up IFR? Most private pilots are flying VFR, even if they
are IFR certified. But even in controlled airspace you don't have to file a
flight plan. I can take off from a class C, fly through uncontrolled space and
am not required to talk to anyone again. I don't have to say anything until I
decide to land.

This is pretty common among pilots too. I'm not sure why drone pilots should
be held to higher standard. Really they should be held to lower.

~~~
vkou
> This is pretty common among pilots too. I'm not sure why drone pilots should
> be held to higher standard. Really they should be held to lower.

Drone pilots have to be held to a higher standard, because they have no skin
in the game.

If a plane pilot flies like an idiot, they might hurt other people in the
air... But they are very likely to also get themselves killed in the process.

This creates an incredibly strong incentive to not fly like an idiot.

A drone operator flying like an idiot is _far_ more likely to get other people
killed, than they are to get themselves killed.

If drone pilots could only operate them, while wearing a suicide vest that
explodes if the drone crashes, I'd be more open to holding them to a lower
standard than pilots.

~~~
godelski
> A drone operator flying like an idiot is far more likely to get other people
> killed

 _IF_ something catastrophic happens. Issue is that a 2lb drone is much less
likely to do damage than a plane. You seriously can not compare the two. The
danger levels of the two are nothing alike. If they were, I'd agree with you,
but these things have magnitudes of difference in danger.

------
crca
Whatever they’re doing out there, it sounds like a lot of fun. Considering
that they seem to be following the letter of the law, I’m fairly certain this
is some sort of commercial operation. I can see a defense contractor using a
large multirotor craft to test some new payloads, like night vision optical or
IR sensors. If the 30 minute hover is to be believed, they must be a
multirotor of some sort.

~~~
Ididntdothis
I agree it sounds like fun but it’s probably pretty tone deaf to do so.
Whoever does this should quickly clear this up just for their own sake.

------
folli
I like the advise to not shoot down the drones, as this can cause a battery
fire. Seems very US-American to me.

~~~
cmroanirgo
> He urged people not to try to shoot the drones down, both because their
> batteries can cause intense fires and also because shooting a drone is a
> federal crime.

Shooting an inanimate object hovering over your property is illegal? ... on
the federal level? I suppose it would have to be, but...

Edit: Now I know: "Under Title 18 of the United State Code 32, the sabotage of
an unmanned aircraft could carry a maximum sentence of 20 years in prison."
[0]

[https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/32](https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/32)

~~~
hatsunearu
I mean, same reason why you can't shoot down an airliner flying 30,000 feet
above your house with a homemade Stinger missile or whatever--the airspace is
not your property

~~~
soulofmischief
This law will have to change as more illegally weaponized drones replace
traditional drive-bys or other assassinations.

------
jt2190
One possible source:

> New swarming drone technology could help find lost hikers, study wildlife

CU Boulder Today, Sept 16, 2017

[https://www.colorado.edu/today/2017/09/06/new-swarming-
drone...](https://www.colorado.edu/today/2017/09/06/new-swarming-drone-
technology-could-help-find-lost-hikers-study-wildlife)

Edit: Research and Engineering Center for Unmanned Vehicles (RECVU):
[https://www.colorado.edu/recuv/](https://www.colorado.edu/recuv/)

Edit 2: This has been a fun topic to research! Here’s a link to the list of
equipment used by the Integrated Remote and In-Situ Sensing (IRISS) team:

[https://www.colorado.edu/iriss/content/equipment](https://www.colorado.edu/iriss/content/equipment)

~~~
tgflynn
Interesting, have you tried searching the FAA database of UAS Part 107
waivers:

[https://www.faa.gov/uas/commercial_operators/part_107_waiver...](https://www.faa.gov/uas/commercial_operators/part_107_waivers/waivers_issued/)
?

If they're non-government/military and are operating legally I think they
would most likely have a 107 waiver filed, at least to allow night flying.
That does mean they'd still need to be under the weight limit but I think the
number of non-107 authorizations, which would allow heavier drones, is very
small.

Also I'd be surprised if a University research program had the resources to
field 17 drones of this size.

------
godelski
If this is such a high concern, why don't they go on a fox hunt? HAM is pretty
popular in rural areas and HAMs love fox hunts. With the frequency and length
that these things are up, they should be able to close in on the operators
fairly quickly.

~~~
5bolts
amateur radio is pretty popular in rural areas. While i guess the pork product
is as well.

and as a ham we don't capitalize it, its not an acronym.

~~~
clort
well it came from initials of Hertz, Armstrong & Marconi all of whom were
instrumental in radio wave research. I think that counts as an acronym but
when it is a common word it is often written in lower case

------
yellow_lead
Seems like this is the new norm and while I do feel the skies should be free
to an extent I know this would concern me if it were happening over my head.

~~~
ObsoleteNerd
Just out of curiosity, why would it concern you? I live in a semi-rural
tourism-heavy town and get a fair few drones in the vicinity of my house due
to a major tourist site nearby, and it never really bothers me unless they fly
low enough for the sound to get annoying.

~~~
mobilefriendly
They might be using cameras on my home or family. They might be testing some
kind of radar or other tech that has a health impact. They might be a
competitor assessing my crops. More broadly their very presence is a trespass
on my right to live and be left alone on my own property.

~~~
trevyn
Radar at legal power levels does not have a health impact.

~~~
tomc1985
Even so a property owner should have a right to decide whether it is used on
his property

~~~
frankharv
I totally agree. Infact the FAA owes me money if they allowed drones below
400ft. This is a taking of my property. I own up to 400 feet. If these drones
want to follow the roads that is fine with me. Don't tread on my private
property.

------
plutonorm
6ft hovering drones? Hovered over a town all night? These are unusual drones.
You have to put engineering effort in to keep a drone up for more than 30
minutes and 6ft is really big for a hovering drone.

~~~
crca
Right? At that point you’re trading off between useful payload and batteries.
I’m wondering if maybe they’re witnessing a loiter pattern, and
misrepresenting is as a hover. These likely aren’t aerospace Engineers giving
quotes here.

~~~
crca
A 6ft fixed wing drone could fairly easily achieve what’s described in the
article if it was really a loiter, not a hover. A multirotor would be an
engineering feat.

~~~
duelingjello
30 ft wingspan powered glider drone made from composite materials would be
even more energy-efficient. Multirotor drones have low energy densities and
waste it rapidly.

Other aspects to consider are that the “drones” are replaced by others as
batteries deplete or that the drones aren’t really there as long as people
believe.

It’s possible that someone is doing this as a hobby for artistic, conspiracy
theory “reconnaissance“ or benign data gathering-purposes or conducting some
sort of investigation or intelligence gathering.

------
tornato7
Does anyone have an alternate source? This site is horrendous on mobile.

~~~
shiftpgdn
My god this has to be one of the worst news sites I've ever seen. Do these
publishers have no shame? I got two full screen video ads with audio on mobile
and it dragged my brand new Pixel phone to a crawl.

~~~
darkstar999
Firefox + ublock origin, my friend

------
onefuncman
The first thing I thought of was
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fenn_treasure](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fenn_treasure)

------
asynchronous13
Alternate Article:

[https://sputniknews.com/us/201912241077783862-its-not-
santa-...](https://sputniknews.com/us/201912241077783862-its-not-santa-
mysterious-gang-of-nighttime-drones-flown-over-colorado-raises-alarm/)

This sounds like a commercial operation. They're obeying the law, staying
below 400ft, and operating in a rural area. It seems like the news articles
are doing their best to make this sound bad when there's nothing nefarious
going on.

~~~
draugadrotten
> They're obeying the law

The article states that small drones must be flown during daylight hours
according to the regulations. These drones are flown at night, which means
they would be in violation of those rules.

~~~
TeMPOraL
The article also suggests that these are not small drones and thus likely not
covered under the regulations mentioned.

Also, from the article: "they emerge each night around 7 p.m. and disappear
around 10 p.m.". 7-10 p.m. isn't night, it's evening. Yes, in the US it's
(probably?) dark by then this time of the year, but maybe they're following
some regulation that is defined in terms of time of the day, and not the
amount of daylight?

~~~
pathseeker
Sunset is 4:39PM right now in Fort Collins.

Night is after sunset in common English:
[https://ell.stackexchange.com/questions/8954/the-exact-
time-...](https://ell.stackexchange.com/questions/8954/the-exact-time-of-
evening-and-night)

Also for the FAA:

14 CFR § 1.1: "Night means the time between the end of evening civil twilight
and the beginning of morning civil twilight, as published in the Air Almanac,
converted to local time."

------
growlist
> A farmhouse sits abandoned on County Road 24 in Yuma County on May 1, 2017

Looks pretty comfy to me. How much does an abandoned farm house in Yuma County
go for these days?

~~~
clort
for reference, I see the house here

[https://www.google.com/maps/@39.9191659,-102.240448,419m/dat...](https://www.google.com/maps/@39.9191659,-102.240448,419m/data=!3m1!1e3)

------
fetus8
My partner lives in this area and while I was there on Monday night, at about
8:45pm, we counted about 10 drones flying around. They came in from the west
but for the duration of their visit, moved around from west to south, to east
to north, in erratic patterns.

Given the first sightings were in the more eastern counties of Colorado, and
have been moving westward, but remaining in the rural areas still, it seems
like someone is searching for something. Did the military lose something?
There's an air-force base in Cheyenne, WY, and one down in Colorado Springs...

~~~
macinjosh
Military seems most likely to me. The military have said it is not them but we
all know that doesn't make it true.

Assuming they are searching for something what could be found after dark?
Perhaps something that gives off radioactivity or light in an invisible
spectrum? Why would they fly at night other than to help them lay low?

Perhaps it is some sort of military drone flight training program?

~~~
fetus8
Yeah, the prevailing thought was it has to be radioactive or tagged with
something that can be seen with IR or something.

I assume the nighttime thing partially has to do with avoiding migrating
Canadian Geese, and of course obscured visibility.

It absolutely could be some sort of training program, which seems like the
most likely answer, but why lie about it when you've been so readily "caught"?

------
neysofu
Slightly OT, but I suggest reading the book "Army of none" by Paul Scharre to
anyone who wishes to learn more about autonomous aircraft, drones, and the
impact of AI on warfare.

------
georgepertot
Illegal Drones.. to large and flting outside FAA regs. Can it be China
..Russia.. looking for our missle silos ???

Or freindly UFO... scouting out landing spot for mother ship anyway it is not
normal to fly and operate such a fleet of drones undocumented in the USA..

------
wrkronmiller
Interesting that these drones can apparently hover “all night.”

------
sanguy
We have similar going on in Annapolis Maryland. You can see the lights,
particularly the red/green on either side.

They seem to just loiter for several hours at a time.

~~~
crocodiletears
Likewise. This article caught my eye, because it describes a phenomenon
similar to one I've observed locally over the past year. I'd be curious about
how well this meshes with what you've seen.

We have a fleet of (at least) 30 drones operating in a similar manner over
Indiana. All of them reliably following paths between fixed waypoints. Upon
reaching their waypoints, they tend to loiter place for a bit, change
elevation, then move to the next point on their route. They typically come out
around 7 pm, and disappear around 5 in the morning. They never fly in poor
weather conditions.

The bulk of them seem to be Delta-wing aircraft, with lights at each point of
their triangular bodies, and another array of three white, rectangular lights
beneath them which will often flash, be disabled, or even on in lieu of the
lights at their wingtips. I've estimated them to be between 6 and 15ft in
wingspan.

They have a forward-swept vertical control surface with a red light at its
apex, that I've variably seen at the top, and the bottom of the craft.

I've seen them fly forwards, backwards, and taxi side to side in rotating
triangular formations of four, with one at the epicenter. They typically fly
around 50mph.

They first appeared in the large numbers around south-central indiana July of
2018, but operate at lower densities across much of the southern half of the
state.

I've always attributed it to the nearby naval warfare research center, due to
the lack of public comment on the part of our local government, or regulatory
bodies.

~~~
jlgaddis
> _... over Indiana._

> _... the nearby naval warfare research center, ..._

I'd be interested in more details (either here or via e-mail to my username at
gmail) as to where you've seen these flying. I'm basically in between
Bloomington and Crane (which is, I assume, where you're referring to) and have
several friends who work at various levels in law enforcement in the area and
even more friends who work at Crane.

This is the first I've heard of anything like this in the area, though.

~~~
crocodiletears
I've emailed you via hn àτ crocodile.observer

------
davewritescode
When I fly a personal drone I have to keep it within line of sight, I thought
if you were doing otherwise you’d have to register with the FAA.

~~~
wongarsu
Lots of people are seeing the drones. If you start and land dark it's probably
pretty easy to have the drones in your line of sight without being seen
yourself.

------
aaron695
No doubt the same brand of drone use in Gatwick, hysteria.

The car following a star is a classic.

It used to be aliens, now it's drones, interesting culture shift.

------
nso
I've been wondering when the first drone-view map of the world would appear.
Maybe it's one of the usual suspects?

------
aSplash0fDerp
<Here. Hold the keys to my 45' RV while I learn to night fly a group of drones
on personal recon missions.

America is pretty great isn't it? Just don't try to bring a liquid on a public
flight and you're a model citizen.

------
nickhalfasleep
Sounds like a good way for criminals to find illegal grow ops.

~~~
avs733
or legal ones for that matter. I don't think they care about the legality of
those they are robbing all that much.

~~~
mistersquid
> I don't think they care about the legality of those they are robbing all
> that much.

People robbed of illegal property usually do not report such losses to the
authorities.

~~~
cronix
Why do you assume it's illegal though? They have legal cannabis in Colorado.

~~~
dragonwriter
> Why do you assume it's illegal though?

Because growing, selling, and possessing cannabis is illegal under US federal
law, and if you are a organizer, manager, or supervisor deriving substantial
income from such an operation conducted with 5 or more other individuals, you
can be charged wih a felony with a 20-year mandatory minimum sentence for a
first offense, and if the operation handles enough product or makes enough
money, the _minimum_ sentence moves up to life without possibility of parole.

There's a current federal law that prohibits initiating prosecutions for
cannabis operations that are permitted under state-level medical marijuana
laws, but that doesn't negate the offense, it just means any charges that
would be covered by the prohibition (which violations not strictly with
_medical_ marijuana laws.are technically not) are delayed as long as the
policy is in effect.

> They have legal cannabis in Colorado.

No, they have a situation in which some cannabis trade is prohibited by only
one of the two applicable sovereigns.

------
saagarjha
Off topic, but in Reader View the page seems to apply a Caesar Cipher with
shift one on the content after a couple of seconds to make reading annoying.

~~~
dmlittle
Maybe it's an extension you've got installed? I wasn't able to reproduce it
(on macOS Safari). What reader are you using?

~~~
saagarjha
iOS Safari.

~~~
metaphor
I distinctly recall you griping about ads while reading IEEE articles a few
days ago[1].

FYSA wasn't able to replicate the reader view issue with uBO on Firefox, both
desktop and mobile.

[1]
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21850005](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21850005)

~~~
saagarjha
I gripe about ads a lot. As you can probably tell, I’m not a fan of them.

------
mnemotronic
To catch a drone, or drone operator, use another drone.

Any chance the drone activity is related to Kim Jong-un's promised Christmas
present? NE Colorado has, or had at one time, a few Atlas or Minuteman missile
silos.

------
loopz
From the article:

He urged people not to try to shoot the drones down, both because their
batteries can cause intense fires and also because shooting a drone is a
federal crime.

“It becomes a self-generating fire that burns until it burns itself out,” he
said. “If you shoot a drone down over your house and it lands on your house,
you might not have a house in 45 minutes.”

So these are really vehicles of arson?

~~~
test0483836
Maybe. In a related note, if you shoot my car until it crashes, it may catch
fire and burn everything around it. People probably shouldn't do that either

