
Ubuntu for phones - llambda
http://www.ubuntu.com/devices/phone
======
BenoitEssiambre
This is probably what Android should have been. I'm not a big fan of the
Dalvik virtual machine layer on Android. It does drain device resources,
especially RAM. I also think this type of architecture would have allowed
convergence with Chrome OS more easily and cleanly.

I wonder if there is space left in the market for another open source OS
though. Most people seem to think Android is open enough.

What gives me hope this could succeed is that the Ubuntu desktop is currently
the desktop OS that is most user friendly and has the best user experience
(IMO). Bringing Ubuntu's design team's superior skills to the mobile platform
might give them the edge they need to become relevant in that space. I love my
Ubuntu desktop. I really hope this takes off.

~~~
rogerbinns
> I'm not a big fan of the Dalvik virtual machine layer on Android.

It provides a processor independent application format. It is obvious now that
ARM has won, but not so several years ago. There are many technical benefits
to an abstract format including bytecode verification, and the consequent
ability to run multiple applications in the same address space because you
can't create pointers. JIT/hotspot style execution can also provide better
performance than C.

In any event providing a CPU neutral application format isn't a bad decision -
others have done it too.

> It does drain device resources, especially RAM.

That claim needs to be substantiated. Is native code significantly denser than
bytecode? The mobile vendors have all gone with GC. Mark and sweep style GC
has more RAM in play by design than something like reference counting, but
there is no requirement that mark/sweep is used - Dalvik could use reference
counting. Again there are tradeoffs but calling them a drain seems a large
stretch.

~~~
janardanyri
> The mobile vendors have all gone with GC.

It's a minor point, but Apple created ARC specifically as a streamlined
reference counting alternative to GC, which was never used in iOS and is now
deprecated in Mountain Lion.

~~~
rogerbinns
I do count ARC as a form of GC. The test is if the developer has to manually
litter their code with calls to release/free memory.

You do not need to do so in Android (Java), iOS (ObjC), Windows Phone (C#)
etc.

~~~
delackner
These terms have basic meanings that are independent of what you seem to wish
they meant. GC is not reference counting, and it would benefit you to put he
difference in your memory.

~~~
hetman
I've always seen "garbage collector" used as a generic term for an automatic
memory management system, not a reference to the specific algorithm used to do
it. It could be a tracing garbage collector or it could be using reference
counting. Where are you getting the definitions that parent would benefit so
from committing to his memory?

~~~
delackner
While some people might say reference counting is just a form of garbage
collection, this blurs the useful distinction when discussing the overhead
involved. Automatic memory management schemes that impose a variable runtime
cost to analyze the object graph are simply totally unlike schemes that have
no analysis step and thus no performance headaches. When people talk about GC
being unacceptable for real time systems, they are not saying reference
counting is unacceptable as well, they are simply saying that any system with
a garbage collection phase are unacceptable. So that seems like a pretty clear
split.

~~~
taejo
Reference-counting schemes don't have the _same_ performance headaches as GC's
with an analysis step, they have different ones:

* their own form of pause (when the last reference to a large tree of object disappears) -- this can rule out RC for real-time systems, while there are real-time GCs (though rare)

* a non-local memory access per reference creation (whereas in other types of GC, the cost of allocation can be reduced to a single increment and compare of a value probably stored in a register)

* none of the locality advantages of copying/compacting collectors

------
MatthewPhillips
Since this is just Ubuntu, I'm assuming I can ssh into it and have all of the
unix utilities I'm used to without installing something like Busybox, and have
full root control.

I'm assuming this has a lot of the normal unix layers we are used to. X.org?
Wayland?

If so, this is a significant step up in terms of hackability than iOS or
Android.

~~~
gizmo686
It sounds like it is the standard Ubuntu userland, but I am not sure if that
is a guarantee for root access. If most of Ubuntu is still under GPLv2 (or
other non DRM restricting licenses), then there is nothing stopping the
manufactoring from locking down the phone. If enough of Ubuntu is under GPLv3,
then I think that the manufacturer would need to replace those pieces in order
to lock down the phone.

~~~
rmc
It is debatable whether you can use DRM with GPLv2. It might still be banned.
GPLv3 includes the anti-DRM stuff to be more explicit and unambiguous.

~~~
gizmo686
Android phones use the linux kernel, which is GPLv2, and they do not seem to
have an issue locking them down.

~~~
rmc
Just because you _use_ software doesn't mean that the restrictions on the
software apply to software it runs. It's only when you re-distribute or modify
GPL software that the GPL licences kicks in.

~~~
gizmo686
And the manufacturer re-distributes the software when they sell me a phone
with it pre-loaded.

------
vibrunazo
The official hangout about the announcement is still going on btw:

[https://plus.google.com/u/0/115750270177636397262/posts/HBof...](https://plus.google.com/u/0/115750270177636397262/posts/HBof6mjApnx)

One latest thing they just said, is that "ubuntu for phones" and "ubuntu for
android" are 2 separate projects going on in parallel. So they're not
abandoning ubuntu for android. Instead, they view that as a gateway to the
ubuntu world, which would hopefully get more people into ubuntu for phones. As
you can see, the official website still have tabs for both ubuntu for android
and for phones:

<http://www.ubuntu.com/devices/android/>

~~~
gcr
What's the difference? I assume "ubuntu for phones" is where you physically
install ubuntu on your phone (ie. it boots into the linux kernel with an
ubuntu userland), but what's "ubuntu for android"? Is that (purely guessing
here) an Ubuntu VM sold as an app, so phones would be running ubuntu inside a
virtual machine under the Android OS's control?

~~~
sciurus
From the link above describing Ubuntu for Android: "Ubuntu and Android share
the same kernel. When docked, the Ubuntu OS boots and runs concurrently with
Android. This allows both mobile and desktop functionality to co-exist in
different runtimes."

------
pajju
Isn't this the best time for Nokia to make Ubuntu Phones? I think so.

Ubuntu and Nokia can make a good fit, under the current circumstances. Nokia
maybe can now come back strongly, instead of believing in a closed ecosystem
like windows, which is not going anywhere.

~~~
mtgx
That ship has sailed for Nokia, and it looks like it will disband next year.

I could see Samsung, HTC, Huawei and others using it Ubuntu as an alternative
to Android, though, instead of WP8 and Tizen, especially since Canonical says
that if their devices work with Android, it's trivial to make them work with
Ubuntu OS.

------
typicalrunt
Very cool. I'm looking forward to this phone, and it's (hopefully) hacking
potential. I'd love to write my own scripts in $LANGUAGE to interact with the
phone sensors. If it's built on Ubuntu, it should all be open to us, right?

I see that this page (<http://www.ubuntu.com/devices/phone/app-ecosystem>)
states that the apps are created with HTML5 or QML, but I'm hoping other
languages are just an apt-get away. If so, they can have my money now.

~~~
Newky
Read in some other HN comment that its just android underneath, so this would
suggest that the normal apt-get route might not be an option?

~~~
green7ea
To clarify: Ubuntu for phones can run using the android kernel (which is a
modified linux kernel). This means that most of the drivers should work out of
the box (graphics, wireless, etc) if you use this route. You can also use a
normal linux kernel but the driver support could be more problematic in that
case.

The difference is that Ubuntu phone has the ubuntu userland (which includes
apt) where as a normal android phone has the android userland (dalvik, etc).

The nice thing about the ubuntu userland is that it will most likely allow you
to use any compiler that targets ARM. This is interesting because it allows
you to make native phone application using python, ruby, haskell, lisp, etc.

Another nice thing about the ubuntu userland is that it includes the gnu
programs so it will be much easier to compile and use things like openssh than
it is in android.

~~~
gizmo686
How different is the Android kernel from mainline? If it is just a case of
drivers shouldn't they be able to easily merge them back to mainline as
modules?

~~~
wmf
All the drivers (for recent hardware) are either binary or so ugly that
mainline will probably refuse to merge them.

------
reissbaker
This is exciting, but... I wish they hadn't gone the route of hiding app
controls behind a swipe menu. The menu button on Android was one of the
reasons apps for so long seemed unintuitive on the platform, and the Windows 8
charms menu has been panned by critics for the same reason. If your users
can't see the controls, they won't know they're there — and even though they
could open the menu, it won't feel _immediately intuitive_ in the way that
just seeing the controls onscreen does. Even a little breadcrumb like the now-
common triple-dash icon on iOS or the triple-dot icon on Android helps people
find their way around unfamiliar apps.

Android finally dropped the hidden menu after the 2.x series, but it looks
like Canonical just walked into making the same mistake.

That said this is very, very cool. Using non-mainstream programming languages
on phones will be interesting.

------
Rickasaurus
You'll be happy with Ubuntu on your phone until the first update where they'll
randomly replace the audio subsystem and break everything.

Not that I'm a bitter ex-Ubuntu user or anything.

~~~
rdtsc
I would rather have that than shitty 100ms+ audio latency that Android OS has
and still hasn't practically fixed (they did theoretically in 4.1+)

<http://code.google.com/p/android/issues/detail?id=3434>

Not that I am a bitter Android VOIP developer or anything ;-)

------
drcube
I won't believe it until they give me a ROM. It's my phone and I don't need
the manufacturer's blessing. Put up or shut up, Canonical.

~~~
fluidcruft
Yeah, yeah, let's bitch. But who's going to vouch for all the mandated stuff
that has to work? Oops some requisite form/filing/testing was skipped? Who's
going to stand up with a target on their back to be sued when someone dies
after 911 doesn't work? Who's going to be responsible when some bug in your
phone floods/knocks out your cell and denies 911 service to others? Does the
law allow _you_ to waive compliance with all of that stuff on equipment you
don't own (towers)? I honestly don't know but good luck getting an answer
other than "no" or "not sure" and a general default punting of
liability/ability to waive policies to the next guy.

Of course, magic hurdle number one is either getting a cell stack (GSM/CDMA)
that you have rights to distribute, by either licensing (as Google does) or
writing one yourself (as seems to be impossible given "open" standards). AFAIK
there are no FOSS stacks.

~~~
drcube
Nobody, because A)the cellular radio is on a separate chip and has nothing to
do with the OS, and B)people already install ROMs on their phones today,
without having to be regulatory compliant. All I'm asking for is an Ubuntu
ROM, because while CyanogenMod is cool, GNU>Android.

~~~
fluidcruft
I agree completely about FOSS. But, based on my experience porting CyanogenMod
to my old phone, things are not as compartmentalized as you would hope. For
example, the user initiating a call to 911 and control of audio is not managed
by the radio chip.

The radio is not completely isolated. I have broken ROMs such that dialing 911
does not work. The phone I spent time hacking on had the radio attached over
USB, and there were all sorts of magic AT chats that were managed by some
proprietary library. Also, firmware on the radio was loaded into the radio by
the OS. Anyway, my point is these things are not obviously separable,
particularly at the holistic level of what's required by laws and regulations.

~~~
jrockway
Phones aren't required to make 911 calls. Consider the case of your MiFi
access point. The Ubuntu phone could just be a smart access point.

We shouldn't let artificial restrictions get in the way of Free Software. The
pre-alpha-Github version does not need to be perfect. It just needs to lay the
foundation for perfection to be added later.

~~~
fluidcruft
> artificial restrictions

I assume it's nice to be flippant about laws and FCC regulations when you're
not legally holding the bag. To be clear I don't know what sorts of things are
required of "phones". I do know it was an issue when IP-based phones from
cable companies were initially advertised as phones but lacked 911 services.
My point is that from the standpoint of near complete ignorance of rules and
regulations it's quite easy to bitch about heavily regulated items.

------
p4bl0
I wonder if the limitations of the HTML5+JavaScript framework for developping
apps on Ubuntu will be removed when Firefox OS is released. Why wouldn't
Canonical implement the JS APIs that are built for Firefox OS and make Firefox
OS apps runs natively on Ubuntu?

------
nuclear_eclipse
I really love how the Nexus phones have become a fixture in concept shots for
alternative OSes. They showed up in Mozilla's OS announcements as well.

~~~
eloisant
The thing is like Mozilla, they piggy-back on Android for Linux kernel and
drivers on hardware.

A Mozilla engineer told me that without Android (and consequently Linux kernel
and drivers availability) they could never have pulled it.

------
rradu
Swiping from the edge of the screen is not always easy with a protective case
on your phone, as it impedes your ability to do so. Pretty annoying problem
that I haven't seen that considered in many places.

~~~
freehunter
The ideal phone wouldn't need a protective case. This is a standard
perpetuated by the sleek and thin aspect to flagship phones, and I personally
think it's obnoxious. What's the point in having the world's thinnest
smartphone if you're going to keep it in the world's thickest case all the
time?

I'd prefer a phone that is built from the ground up to be secure without a
case. My current phone is a Nokia Lumia 920, which can withstand some pretty
substantial forces [1] without breaking and without needing a case. And sure
it's thick compared to a naked iPhone or SIII, but it's thinner than those
phones with a case that would allow them to withstand the same kind of impact.
Why do people put up with buying a phone and needing to immediately wrap it in
protective rubber and plastic to keep it from shattering? Don't put up with it
anymore! Demand reliable hardware! How well it works with a case shouldn't be
a determining factor.

[1] <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E3c8il_Q6SU>

~~~
Lost_BiomedE
If the battery is removable, like most android phones, you don't need the
protective case. If dropped, the battery will come out and take a large force
of the fall. iPhones do not do this and need the case. Then it became either
trendy, needed for resale, or people don't know that their phone 'exploding'
when dropped is a feature. For example, I have dropped my EVO V at least 20
times, onto concrete or tile, without issue.

~~~
Bramble
If the Google Nexus 4 is meant to show the direction Google wants to take
Android phones in, "most" android phones will not be robust for long. While
the newest iPhone has done away with the glass back, the newest flagship phone
from Google has a glass front and back and a non-removable battery.

------
chestnut-tree
Here's a link to the YouTube video presentation that jumps directly to the
section about the new smartphone

<http://youtu.be/cpWHJDLsqTU?t=5m20s>

------
maxpert
He is pitching the same things and similar UI gestures and concepts as Windows
8. I don't know if it will ever be a competitor to iOS, or Android. But its
surely gonna hurt Blackberry.

------
hnriot
The phone looks like Win8 Metro, and the presenter is trying to be Steve Jobs.
With the cpu's in phones already being phenomenally fast I see little to no
value in removing the java layer. Currently this is vaporware, but should it
appear on a phone sometime soon, I just don't see it gaining any marketshare
beyond some of the hardcore OSS fans. Real people like an app ecosystem with
their latest Angry Birds games and don't much care about any of the technical
details.

The "lock screen" is just weird, and the hyperbole spouted by the presenter
was downright embarrassing.

It all comes down to the apps. If Google Maps/Gmail/Chrome/Youtube etc all run
on it then it might stand a chance, but I don't see further phone market
fragmentation as being in anyone's interest.

I do, however, use Ubuntu as my main desktop (2.6.38)

~~~
jblow
Middlebrow dismissal.

Believe that all of us working in video games want program execution on mobile
devices to be as fast as possible. My brand-new desktop PC is not fast enough
for what I want to do, so an Android phone running a bytecode interpreter is
that much further.

I also don't think you know what "vaporware" means. If it is actually running
on physical hardware it's not vaporware; it is just not in consumer hands yet.
(Since Engadget has played with it on a physical phone... it is known to be
real.)

~~~
wmf
Don't all mobile OSes now allow C/C++ for games? I know Android 2.3+ does.

The difference appears to be that Android encourages Java for non-games while
Ubuntu will use C++/Qt.

~~~
ttuominen
Yes, and QML (declarative syntax + Javascript logic) for UI-heavy parts or
even complete apps. <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/QML>

------
trendnet
I was thinking the other day, how Ubuntu and the movement of free friendly
desktop became less relevant with the triumphant march of iOS and Android.
Considering that Mark Shuttleworth is a smart leader. He will definitely make
a proper move in the near future.

And here we go...

~~~
pandeiro
i moved on from ubuntu a while back but, watching the promo video, i couldn't
help but thinking mark shuttleworth is, pardon the cliche, something like the
new steve jobs. he's got charisma, big ideas, and he's savvy enough to market
them.

my other major thought, while watching this: where is the keyboard? (ie, will
it run emacs?)

------
asimjalis
Does this make it substantially easier to get Python on the phone?

~~~
icebraining
Yes, maybe we can finally reach 2005!

/disgruntled Nokia fan

~~~
eertami
Nokia N900?

apt-get install python

------
joshka
Mark Shuttleworth reminds me of Douglas Reynholm from the IT Crowd.

<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oye9AmOdsZc> is uncanny.

------
jiggy2011
I hope with their "HTML5 Apps" there will be strong integration with local
storage and that the phone will be able to cache all of the assets and JS
files etc locally if they are going for "Web apps should be just like native
apps".

The problem with "cloud apps" on phones is that you run into the real problems
of carrier imposed bandwidth limits and slow connectivity in places.

Apps that have a horrendously slow UI if you are anywhere outside of a major
city will not be much fun to use.

~~~
pedalpete
Do you really need stronger integration with local storage when you've got
HTML5 localstorage?

I don't believe there is anything stopping us from caching all the JS in
localstorage already, though I haven't done it yet.

Apparently, you can even store images in localstorage
<http://robnyman.github.com/html5demos/localstorage/>

~~~
jiggy2011
Ideally it would be nice to have something that caches stuff in local storage
and can make offline copies of HTML pages and JS by default.

~~~
prostoalex
You mean like App Cache?
<http://www.html5rocks.com/en/tutorials/appcache/beginner/>

------
tsahyt
I've been contemplating the idea of a full fledged Linux as a mobile operating
system for a while now. It's great to see that people have already been
working on this. I like how it finally offers development in native languages
that aren't Objective-C. The UI is looking good and from the presentation it
looks usable. If that is really a proper Linux I'll definitely give it a try
once I get my hands on it.

~~~
wmf
I actually bought a Nokia N900 running Maemo. It sucked. Getting a desktop
GNOME/Linux stack to work right on phones is a huge amount of work — maybe
almost as much as writing Android from scratch (it's hard to tell due to the
budget disparity).

~~~
eertami
Unpolished sure but I have to disagree that it sucks. I've solely used an N900
for the last 3 years now. The power of maemo for me overrules the occasional
frustrations - I'm just kind of worried about what I'll do if I break it.

------
72deluxe
Their plans look surprisingly like a Motorola Atrix! It runs Android normally
but also has an old Ubuntu ARM system on it which it runs when docked. Having
said this, it needed a severe amount of hacking around and rooting to get it
to a usable state and to fix the repositories and broken dependencies and
horrible window manager. I have one and its dock plugged into the TV. I also
have the Lapdock. It isn't a massively powerful phone but alright for
compiling this and that, word processing and SSHing to more powerful machines.
Sadly, Motorola have announced that they will make no more of this type of
phone as it wasn't overly popular (and the Lapdock and accessories were
stupidly expensive)

So, with the Ubuntu phone I can see this being popular with a few geeks but
not with the mass market. If they stop making Unity behave like it is on a
tablet when it is really on a PC, that'd be great. That is one good thing that
could come from this, right?

------
jack57
Looks like a lot of people are interested in developing apps for Ubuntu
Mobile. So much so that the website is already down:
<http://developer.ubuntu.com/gomobile>

------
slacka
Native Android! I love it! As someone who suffered with a laggy HTML5 based
WebOS Pre, then loved his silky smooth 3GS, but left the walled garden for a
Galaxy S2, I am thrilled about this. My S2’s H/W by all accounts blows my old
3GS out of the water, yet I still find the experience much more laggy than my
3 year old 3GS. I’m sure much of this is the Java VM holding Android back. I
can’t wait to have an Linux phone with the native speed of IOS. Great news!

------
teyc
Here are the reasons why I think Mark Shuttleworth is doing this:

Today, Linux is everywhere in the sense that beneath Android – runs Linux.
Unfortunately, Ubuntu doesn’t figure in the equation. Tablets, phones are all
locked down devices and enthusiast/hobbyist open source doesn’t figure unless
drivers are available. To maintain relevance, Ubuntu needs to exist in the
mobile space.

Today’s announcement is an early one, and is making the same value proposition
as Android did early on, before Google’s acquisition. i.e. an open source
system that any phone vendor can use to build their smartphone platforms on.

The Problems

Ubuntu has a remarkably polished desktop product for years but it has remained
a fringe product and the PC market has simply stopped growing. Jobs has
carefully taken Apple around MS’s hegemony on the desktop by tackling music
players first, then a pincer movement through Windows Mobile dominance by
producing a very expensive smartphone.

Shuttleworth faces not one but several well established and cashed up
competitors – Apple, Google/Samsung, Amazon. I haven’t even mentioned
Microsoft, or the Chinese Korean and Taiwanese versions of a smartphone OS.
Each of them have an arsenal of patents and services that gives them degrees
of freedom to move around the space. Google for example commands the
email/contacts/calendar integration, YouTube, Maps and Navigation. Google’s
approach is to deny competitors full functionality of these services to
cripple their smartphone offerings. e.g. turn by turn in the case of iOS,
YouTube search APIs in the case of Windows Phones. Apple and Amazon have
offered cloud locker services for those who purchased music and books from
their online stores. Microsoft has some cards left in enterprise management
and server integration.

Next steps

I believe this is just an initial salvo. Promising compatibility with Android
kernel level drivers is a good start. Right now there isn’t enough value
proposition for Ubuntu phone in terms of apps or services. Integrating a phone
and desktop are novel but it is far from a sure bet. A reference phone design
might be good bet if they think it will persuade some of the smaller Chinese
manufacturers to jump onboard. However, this will not please Dell. It might
make a MIUI-like play, and remain a niche phone OS for several years until the
opportunity is right.

What Ubuntu really needs to do now as an organisation is to make a sideways
bet into iOS and Android. It needs to kick start development of its own mail
app, or acquire a navigation maker like Waze, and get these loaded onto the
popular phones today. There is still some geek-cred left in Ubuntu for people
to load these apps on, and who knows, they might catch on in the enterprise
space.

------
Off
mini review by the Verge : <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kXWnMTm7We8>

~~~
FrojoS
tl;d watch: slow and laggy

~~~
takluyver
Rather an unfair summary - their own conclusion was more like 'Promising, but
will face an uphill battle. Some lag that we hope will be cleared up before
launch.'

------
rayiner
Isn't it a bit early for a phone OS when they still can't get out a version of
desktop Ubuntu with battery life equal to Windows/Mac OS X?

~~~
orbitingpluto
Your mileage may vary. I have a laptop that dual boots: 7hrs Ubuntu, 5.5hrs
Windows.

------
ajasmin
Stupid question: Is the source code available yet?

------
nagarjun
The idea behind a single OS that works across devices is probably the single
greatest thing that any company can do. Having said that, it's very difficult
to set up an app framework that allows not only the OS maker but even
developers to create a single application that works across devices. Kind of
like media queries for native applications.

------
chj
Finally a phone OS (other than iOS) where C is a first class citizen. Will be
buying.

------
stonekeeper09
Will Canonical be in the firing line of Microsoft's lawyers in the same way as
some manufacturers selling android phones are? Microsoft make $10 for every
android phone. How will this be different?

~~~
jpkeisala
I am sure it is not only Microsoft who is trolling them if they get any
success on this.

------
knitting
I wonder what would make a non-Ubuntu OS user who does not care much about
"open source" to choose this over Android.

------
rediah
It took this long for this to finally happen. This will hopefully spur other
developers to follow in their footsteps.

------
teja1990
The designers who created the Welcome Screen , kudos to you all , it looks
awesome :)

------
hobbyist
I will be buying this phone. Period!

Why? The very reason why I use linux on my desktop and android just never
gives you the same feeling of being differnt from the rest of the world.

------
mwg66
If they get this to market, I'm in.

------
jasongaya
i think ios and android have very big marketing lets see what happen in ubantu
os.

------
devilankur18
too many new OS in the market ... lets hope non/x-ubuntu users will like it.

------
pablasso
It's amusing how mocked Apple's marketing is while still getting copied by
huge companies.

------
aes256
At long last, a smartphone OS that isn't iOS and doesn't look like shit.

~~~
k-mcgrady
This does look very nice, much better than any variant of Android I've seen
though the top of the 'welcome screen' (time/date) looks identical to iOS -
same font, sizing, and arrangement.

~~~
ZeroGravitas
The font they are using is called "Ubuntu" ("Ubuntu Light", to be exact, I
think), which is fairly distinct from Apple's choice of Helvetica, even in the
limited area of clock digits

You can type in some example times here to see:

<http://font.ubuntu.com/>

------
ebae
oh man. do I have to pick up another language for another platform????

~~~
dharma1
no. <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qt_(framework)>

~~~
olivier1664
"Moai" look nice for game. <http://getmoai.com/products/sdk/>

HTML5 with canvas+javascript can be an other possibility.

(I do not the limits of these tools)

------
Kilimanjaro
Mark Shuttleworth. I've seen your balls, and they are big and brassy!

