
Google Is Trying Too Hard, or Not Hard Enough, to Diversify - jrwan
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/03/09/technology/google-diversity-lawsuits.html
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mc32
There are, I think two different things here:

1\. Getting women in the pipeline from an early age. Whether it's cultural, or
women in developed Western economies don't need an escape hatch like in places
they face few options --as a country, if we are to progress, we have to find a
way to improve the pipeline. Increase the pool of women candidates, and you
will not have to work hard at finding good candidates.

2\. Google should have not touched the live wire that is a publicly stated
policy for PR brownie points. If they meant to improve things, introduce
processes without the unnecessary fanfare because, as we now are witnessing,
they are being pincered from both sides --which is ultimately
counterproductive.

~~~
stcredzero
_1\. Getting women in the pipeline from an early age. Whether it 's cultural,
or women in developed Western economies don't need an escape hatch like in
places they face few options --as a country, if we are to progress, we have to
find a way to improve the pipeline. Increase the pool of women candidates, and
you will not have to work hard at finding good candidates._

I've been in relationships with 2 women who could code, but who absolutely
didn't want to do that as a job. (They formed these ideas well before they met
me.) I also taught 100 level Computer Science courses at University, and
encountered many young women with similar attitudes. There is something going
on in our culture which makes women not want to code as a job.

Liana K covered some of this in an even handed way, even as the fury was still
running hot:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BIRvtA2JIIA](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BIRvtA2JIIA)

 _Google should have not touched the live wire that is a public policy for PR
brownie points._

I suspect that they were invaded by large numbers of employees with an agenda
who have what they feel is a moral mandate, who won't take no for an answer,
who furthermore feel they are justified in toxic and intellectually stifling
behaviors by their moral mandate. People are taught in college and socialized
in online groups that it is their moral duty to pursue this agenda and take
such actions. Given the scope of the reactions I saw come out of Google during
the Damore furor, I think it's basically too late for them. I'd hope to be
wrong, but I see little hope.

I don't think Google is wrong for trying to recruit more women. Their problems
have to do with how their efforts have manifested in their internal culture in
a way which stifles free inquiry and dissent. If it hasn't already happened
it's only a matter of time before they succumb to stagnation and only run off
of their market position and network effects. Also, as we have seen with other
media companies, at some point in their decline, the decline will motivate
behaviors which are harmful to society at large. I suspect this process has
already begun.

~~~
jesseschalken
_I 've been in relationships with 2 women who could code, but who absolutely
didn't want to do that as a job. (They formed these ideas well before they met
me.) I also taught 100 level Computer Science courses at University, and
encountered many young women with similar attitudes. There is something going
on in our culture which makes women not want to code as a job._

How do you know that what they want is a consequence of our culture? Did they
say so?

For example, if they don't want to because it's just not enjoyable or
interesting enough, then I think that's okay (provided it's being presented
properly). It is okay if a person is not interested in a type of work. It
doesn't necessarily imply anything wrong with either.

~~~
stcredzero
_How do you know that what they want is a consequence of our culture? Did they
say so?_

Liana K makes the case for this side of the issue very well. The 30k foot
version: Note that programmer used to be a preferred occupation for women.

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BIRvtA2JIIA](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BIRvtA2JIIA)

As someone who thinks that James Damore was unjustly fired and that many
people and news media imputed things on him which he did not mean or in fact
say -- Let me say that there is something toxic and immoral in the Bay Area
tech community. There is something like that in any large enough group of
people. If someone is a small enough minority, they can become a target for
the very small number of sociopaths. Power does corrupt. There is an element
of truth behind both sides of this issue. If it weren't so, it would not be as
difficult as it is.

 _It is okay if a person is not interested in a type of work. It doesn 't
necessarily imply anything wrong with either._

I agree that is okay. However, I think it's highly likely that not all of the
ire I've seen around this issue is an ideological fiction.

~~~
mc32
Here's my take:

We need to encourage both boys and girls at an early age [i.e. we should not
discourage either boys or girls]. As these boys and girls grow up into men and
women in the workforce, having been side-by-side all through school, I think
both, by then men and women, will both find they have a place in the tech
workforce.

In the US (and other places) we have people who pursue fame (in acting,
singing, etc.) when we know and they know their chances are slim. But we as a
society value "celebrity". We celebrate liberal arts. We don't so much
celebrate hard sciences. That's part of the problem. We don't need so many
cashiers and delivery boys and girls with liberal arts degrees doing nothing
in their careers.

We could have many of those people who study liberal arts go into more meaty
things --there are better prospects for STEM than for liberal arts graduates.

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hemantv
I wonder at what point the work is more important? These discussions upto a
certain point are helpful when does it start to hurt the competitiveness of
company.

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throwaway_234
May sound odd but I have found working with a bunch of other white folks to be
like high school especially in the 20 to 40 age range. While as a white guy
working with just about all Indians to the best working environment. Though it
is socially lacking due to culture differences there isnt a bunch of insecure
back stabbing types .... just ppl that work well together and without
judgement.

Also I work in the government sector redesigning and developing govt sites and
apps. It's not Google and Facebook but it is Medicare and other names yet ppl
aren't banging at their door begging to work there .. so there's also that
lack of competition and competition/insecurities brings out the worst in many.

~~~
jingleheimer
You must have been lucky enough to be working with Indians who were all from
the same caste. I've worked as an intermediary to different teams comprised of
competing castes because they refused to work with each other.

~~~
throwaway_234
My experiences and jobs have all dealt with working in small teams; 4 to 8
people from project mangers, designers and developers.

~~~
jingleheimer
It's easy to get lucky with small numbers. I was a researcher and I worked
alongside teams of hundreds of people, mostly Indians. I was a mentor to a
bright young hard working "untouchable" who showed lots of promise. He
informed me about the caste system and who was in what caste. Sadly once I
left the company the other teams who would work with me ended up shunning him
and driving him out of the company. I got him a job at Facebook and he's happy
there so at least that worked out.

------
RobLach
It's also the same company that pushes out a "do no evil" narrative while
throwing their AI on top of predator drones so middle grounds are a bit tough
for them.

