

Your Office Chair Is Killing You - genieyclo
http://www.businessweek.com/print/magazine/content/10_19/b4177071221162.htm

======
mark_l_watson
I am going to share my experience, hopefully this will help someone: about 3
1/2 years ago, I went through a brief period of long hours at my desk (I had
just previously had a hiking accident, dislocated shoulder, broke bones, and
found that a period of long-hours and hard work took my mind off of recovering
from shoulder surgery).

During this brief period I developed blood clots in one leg from sitting too
long, and was really lucky to survive two large pulmonary embolisms. I often
share this story as a warning to others. BTW, I average wilderness hiking for
about ten hours a week (gentler walks when recovering from surgery) and that
was not enough to prevent the blood clots.

Now, I use a 20 minute timer to get me up and walking around for a few
minutes, 3 times an hour. Frequently standing and walking around is a
recommended habit! Bad sitting habits almost killed me, and I needed over two
years to mostly recover, so please take this seriously.

~~~
brianobush
I also recommend a timer. I use water for my timer - drink lots and keeps you
going to the bathroom often. Unfortunately, this isn't good for solving hard
problems that involve much concentration, but my back often needs a break.

~~~
vlisivka
I use Gnome built-in timer (see keyboard options). You can use WorkRave.org,
or similar program (google for "RSI break program").

~~~
silentbicycle
Xwrits is good, too.

------
tlb
_Older people who move around have half the mortality rate of their peers._
Well that proves something. No chance of mixing up causation there.

~~~
lutorm
I assume that's sarcasm?

~~~
jamesbritt
If you are healthy enough that you can more easily move around, you may also
live longer.

If you have assorted health issues you may also not be inclined to move around
much. The "not moving much" may be the result of other health issues, not the
cause of them.

------
mixman
I've tried sitting on the Salli Twin (<http://salli.com/eu/Frontpage>) for a
few minutes and am seriously contemplating buying one soon. It made me sit
proper and comfortable from get-go. On normal (even expensive) office chairs I
tend to numb my lowerback/legs at some point of the day.

Bonus: It's also been built with men's genitals in mind
(<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_HIt3D7Ivfc>).

~~~
subsection1h
Hi, I created an account just to respond to your post. I used a Salli
MultiAdjuster for a couple of months. I'm a guy, and my genitals couldn't
tolerate it for more than half an hour or so. Fortunately, I didn't pay to use
the chair. A local high-end office furniture store let me borrow it. I'd
recommend looking for a similar store in your area. I still haven't found a
good chair.

On a non-chair related note, to those of you who take breaks, I strongly
recommend that you consider taking exercise breaks rather than simply walking
around or stretching. Google "grease the groove". I'm currently GTGing pull-
ups and overhead kettlebell presses.

------
richardw
I'm awaiting the arrival of a Herman-Miller Embody, which is my engagement
present! It's very expensive, but...er...'worth it'. Meaning I've trialed it
for a week and loved the feel and the way it subtly encourages movement while
sitting. It simply blows away anything I've sat on, including the Aeron they
loaned me until it arrives. The fiancee got a ring - but surely a really good
chair is much more worthwhile for a developer who works from home a lot?!

[http://gizmodo.com/5071571/herman-miller-embody-review-
the-b...](http://gizmodo.com/5071571/herman-miller-embody-review-the-best-
chair-weve-ever-sat-on)

~~~
lutorm
I was excited about the Embody, but when I tried it for a couple of hours I
found that the whiffle-tree structure, which equalizes the pressure across the
back, allowed my lumbar spine to collapse into C-shape. I was so
disappointed...

------
AndyKelley
I don't know why every chair has wheels. I hate chairs with wheels. Every
office I've been to, I end up sitting on one leg, the other stretched out. And
I can't push my feet against the wall and lean back because of the blasted
wheels! But when I go home to my beloved $20 chair with no wheels, no
armrests, and only lower back support, I feel great.

~~~
abstractwater
Chairs with wheels make it easier for me to lose any ergonomic positions I had
found, because of the wheels.

What chair do you use at home?

~~~
AndyKelley
It looks like this:
[http://coastalmoonwalks.com/db1/00033/coastalmoonwalks.com/_...](http://coastalmoonwalks.com/db1/00033/coastalmoonwalks.com/_uimages/chair.jpg)

------
chipsy
I mentioned this in another thread, but I got this stool:
[http://www.amazon.com/Safco-3442BL-Extended-Height-
Swivel/dp...](http://www.amazon.com/Safco-3442BL-Extended-Height-
Swivel/dp/B001MS719M/ref=pd_sbs_k_3)

I'll switch between reclining with it(I have a multi-level home desk setup and
can stretch my legs out), sitting at the edge of the seat with the legs on the
ground, sitting using the footrest, or standing.

------
fuelfive
Get a treadmill desk:

<http://frog.posterous.com/the-treadmill-desk-returns>

~~~
AndyKelley
How feasible is this? Can anyone share their experiences?

~~~
stcredzero
I am going to use a "Twist Board" at one of my desks, and a compace elliptical
at the other. Both desks are going to be converted to standing desks.

------
andrew_k
I bought a standing desk couple weeks ago. [http://www.amazon.com/Euroflex-
Stand-2dUp-Mobile-Workstation...](http://www.amazon.com/Euroflex-Stand-2dUp-
Mobile-Workstation-Charcoal/dp/B000BGHSGC/ref=pd_sbs_k_1) So far I feel much
better when I work standing, but my body still needs to get used to it. So I
sometimes work sitting at the regular desk.

------
JoeAltmaier
Sit in any any regular chair, and don't lean back. Simple, similar to the
"stool perch" recommendation, free and universally available.

~~~
stcredzero
This is something I'm skeptical about in this article. I know that I can sit
in such a way as to give my spine an S curve. However, I also know that I
inevitably curve my back if I am sitting down for long stretches of time.

~~~
Glide
I bought a Swopper chair to use at home. I would say it definitely helped me
sit up straight at home.

------
mechanical_fish
I can't believe that some ergonomics researchers are actually endorsing my
crazy idea of setting up a treadmill and walking while working.

Maybe I have to try that now. It's a pity that treadmills are so pricey.

Incidentally, the ability to move around in different positions while reading
is a major reason I bought the iPad.

~~~
spudlyo
You can often find great bargains on used exercise equipment, as it's often
bought and then rarely used. Check craigslist.

~~~
stcredzero
What about one of these instead of a treadmill?

[http://www.amazon.com/Stamina-40-0045C-InStride-
Electronic-S...](http://www.amazon.com/Stamina-40-0045C-InStride-Electronic-
Stepper/dp/B000AMX3AM/)

The same company also makes a compact elliptical.

~~~
xexers
its impossible to cheat while standing on a treadmill, but those things you
can just stop.

~~~
stcredzero
I'd call the ability to "cheat" a plus.

------
brianobush
Anyone have a good chair recommendation that doesn't cost $500? The stool
concept struck me as a great idea, until I saw the price. (Maybe I should be
in chairs?)

~~~
keltex
Here's the thing. Don't be put off by the expensive price of ergonomic chairs.
I bought my Aeron chair in 2002 and have used it every day since. It's made a
huge difference in my back and neck.

The chair cost be around $700 at the time, so that's <$100 per year or <$0.50
per day.

Also the chair came with a 12 year warranty. A couple months ago the pneumatic
cylinder went out. I called a local Aeron deal and since I bought the chair
from a authorized dealer, they sent somebody to my house and fixed it for
free.

~~~
mechanical_fish
Yes. If you have the money, and you've already been to the dentist [1], spend
the money on a chair. Either you will (god forbid) not live to be forty years
old -- in which case you won't miss the money -- or your forty-year-old self
will thank you. So will your fifty, sixty, seventy, eighty and ninety-year-old
selves.

(This is not to say, by the way, that you might not experience chair-related
pain in your thirties, or even earlier. But the odds do seem to go up in
middle age.)

My only concern -- highlighted in the article -- is that my Aeron isn't
enough. I'm amused to find that experts think the thing is too low -- it _is_
too low. But maybe that was partly because my pneumatic cylinder was about to
go out -- mine just went. Fortunately my chair is also under warranty!

I'll look into these wacky standing chairs.

\---

[1] Slightly off topic, but: I wish, when I was in my twenties, poorly paid,
and absent-minded, I'd gotten email every six months saying "the dental
checkup you're about to skip will eventually cost you something like $10k or
$15k in root canals and crowns. Or, alternatively, you could lose your teeth
and spend forty years cursing your bridgework and dentures."

------
buckler
There was a pertinent discussion about height adjustable desks few days ago,
see here:

<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1285775>

I highly recommend them, if you can get one for your home office (or if you
work in a office that allows desk of your preference). Some people go even
further and get a treadmill underneath the desk, but I like to switch between
sitting & standing personally. Standing up while working gives me an active
feel to it, and I find myself avoiding procrastination since my legs would get
tired if I were to spend hours surfing the Web (sure, I could adjust the
height so that I can comfortably sit again, but the decision becomes more
'conscious' in a sense).

------
jrockway
I don't think chairs are the biggest problem facing office workers. Desks and
monitors that don't adjust well are.

------
daveungerer
I use a big inflated ball that sits on a base with coasters. I've seen some
with back support, but mine doesn't. It forces you to keep some weight on your
legs, like the perching mentioned in the article. But it has an additional
benefit: you can't help but bounce a little bit. You're body's not designed to
remain static for long. Overall, I feel less lethargic and less prone to neck
and shoulder pain.

Most people have weak core muscles due to chairs with backs, so if you're
going to try out this kind of chair, don't be surprised if you can't do it for
more than an hour a day at first. Also, it may not be a good idea if you're
tall, since the ball can only inflate so much. If the angle between your upper
legs and your body isn't greater than 90 degrees it probably won't work for
you.

I still have a normal chair. If you're working crazy hours, you need to give
your supporting muscles a break sometimes.

Oh, and it's really cheap: mine was about $60 if I convert from my local
currency.

EDIT: here's an example, but don't buy it online if you haven't tried it:
[http://www.opentip.com/Sporting-Goods/Dynaflex-Fit-
Chair-p-1...](http://www.opentip.com/Sporting-Goods/Dynaflex-Fit-
Chair-p-1159204.html)

~~~
cgravill
"Standing desks and chaise longues are good options. Ball chairs, which bounce
your spine into a C-shape, are not."

~~~
daveungerer
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ball_Chair>

A ball chair is not an exercise ball chair. Looking at the illustration on
Wikipedia, it's clear that a ball chair forces a C-shaped spine. Your spine
will stay in an S-shape if you sit upright on the "chair" I'm referring to.

~~~
Avshalom
Seeing as that design is never mentioned in respects to ergonomics and
certainly wouldn't "bounce" anything, I strongly suspect the quoted passage
was referring to the inflated balls you sit on.

~~~
daveungerer
You're right. That's one of the disadvantages of linking to the printer
friendly version of an article. You miss out on those "link" things that made
this "interweb" thing famous:

<http://images.businessweek.com/mz/10/19/0509_chairs.pdf>

I'm just going to continue as usual, using the ball chair and alternating with
a normal chair if needed. My spine feels great and definitely has a more
natural shape when sitting on the ball vs. a normal chair.

------
lutorm
I have a Stokke Balans chair (e.g.
[http://www.ergodepot.com/Variable_balans_by_Varier_p/v100.ht...](http://www.ergodepot.com/Variable_balans_by_Varier_p/v100.htm))
which works really nicely to align your spine and allow you to move around.
Unfortunately the pressure on your shins becomes uncomfortable after a while,
and if your back muscles are weak it takes a while to be able to use it for a
while without fatigue.

------
stcredzero
A cheap standing desk option:

<http://www.ikea.com/us/en/catalog/products/00115992>

This can be setup with the desk surface at standing height. The smaller
shelves become under-desk storage or monitor stands.

There is also a wider model of the same desk that currently goes for $159.

------
thecombjelly
1.5 months ago I got rid of my chair and made my desk work at standing level.
I love it. My body feels better. I can't ever foresee myself going back. I was
originally going to buy a good chair but I didn't see the point when it seemed
that standing would be better, cheaper, and allow me to be more flexible with
my space.

~~~
PonyGumbo
What kind of work do you do?

------
GeneralMaximus
Okay, how about sitting down on the floor with legs crossed and a small
portable desk for your computer? This is exactly how I'm sitting now, and it's
less painful than sitting on the cheap $20 plastic chair I own.

~~~
bumbledraven
I'm curious about this too. Many Buddhist monks sit cross-legged
(<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sitting#Cross-legged>) for long periods of the
day, and I haven't heard of them having any health problems due to this.

------
daveungerer
There's also a PDF accompanying the article, with pictures of some of the
chairs:

<http://images.businessweek.com/mz/10/19/0509_chairs.pdf>

Rant (stop reading if you're not interested): Posting it here, since we're all
so obsessed with printer friendly versions of articles, because we can't stand
clicking to view the second half of an article. Unfortunately, the printer
friendly version doesn't contain links like this one.

------
yanilkr
After so many articles and discussions like this one here and reading about
iclubby and emperor workstation, I took the task to my hands. Couple of days
back, I hacked together a good reclining chair that is a lot comfortable then
sitting. I wrote a quick mail with images here.

<http://anil-bkdsb.posterous.com/my-work-station-1>

~~~
timmaah
Your images try to pull from gmail, thus don't load.

~~~
yanilkr
Added the images now. Thanks for pointing that out.

------
jamesbritt
Chaise longues? That'll work. I sit in a sort of feet-up semi-recline as it
is.

Maybe I just need to bring the patio furniture into the office.

~~~
jrockway
Mark Pilgrim, IIRC, uses a Poäng chair. I thought this was a bad idea at
first, but if you can get the keyboard and monitor adjusted right, it could be
quite comfortable.

~~~
jamesbritt
Interesting. Had no idea what a Poäng chair was, but when I Googled I saw that
the tilt of the seat and back is pretty much how I set my chair.

------
dfischer
I've been thinking of setting up a standing work environment. Anyone have
articles or recommendations for setting one up?

~~~
slackerIII
After estimating the height I needed to raise my desk, I bought some cinder
blocks and pavers from Home Depot for about $10 and just put them under my
desk legs. I used some old books to prop up my monitors, but blocks of printer
paper work well too.

An anti-fatigue mat is an excellent investment, but even with that be prepared
for a few weeks of achy feet/legs. You get used to it eventually, but man, it
feels nice to crash on the couch in the evening.

~~~
dfischer
That sounds like a solution but I like elegance. Hah.

------
NickM
I wish the article had given an explanation for their claim that lumbar
support doesn't help anything. They say the spine needs to stay S-shaped, and
that's exactly what lumbar support is designed to promote, so what's the
problem?

~~~
tlb
I think the point is that postural support muscles have special metabolism
that does good things when they're active (generating force) for extended
periods of time. A chair that molds you into the shape doesn't make the
muscles work.

------
friendstock
what about sitting on a big bouncy ball?

[http://blog.makezine.com/upload/2010/03/toolbox_take_a_seat/...](http://blog.makezine.com/upload/2010/03/toolbox_take_a_seat/ExerciseBallChairGirlSide2.jpg)

~~~
edu
From the article Standing desks and chaise longues are good options. Ball
chairs, which bounce your spine into a C-shape, are not.

I'm not sure if "ball chairs" are the same as you mean, but I guess they're.

~~~
kerkeslager
I've been sitting on a medicine ball for a while, and I agree that there's a
big tendency to slouch into a C-shaped back. However, if you are conscious of
your posture, it is possible to sit with an S-shaped back. At least, that's my
subjective, anecdotal experience.

A side effect of sitting with good S-shaped posture on a medicine ball is that
I don't really "sit" any more. Instead, I straddle the ball as if I were
riding a horse.

However, for me the reason I switched to sitting on a medicine ball has
nothing to do with back posture and everything to do with preventing a
recurring pilonidal abscess.

------
secretasiandan
I alternate between sitting on a normal chair and kneeling on the (carpeted)
floor and sometimes kneeling on a bean bag chair. Kneeling is also nice
because its easier to randomly stretch.

------
lneves
I would be interested to know if sports like cycling also have some kind of
the negative health impact caused by the long periods of "sitting down".

~~~
pedalpete
yes and no.

Cycling puts an unnatural curve in our lower back, very similar to sitting in
a chair, and due to the way the muscles work, cyclist end up with tight hip
flexors and hamstrings and stretched spinal erectors (sorry, I've been out of
Physiology for a while so can't remember the exact names of the muscles) which
can further exacerbate the problem. Compare a cyclist with a runner, and you
can see a noticeable difference in posture.

However, I wouldn't call it a 'negative health impact', as the activity is
improving your health. Just be sure to stretch, and counter the muscle
imbalances that the sport produces.

Many sports have similar results because they are unnatural. For example,
snowboarders in big mountain areas end up with a unnaturally strong/tight
oblique muscle on one side and one stronger leg. Surfers likely don't have
this issue because the majority of their exertion occurs during the paddling
phase and the length of time actually spent riding the wave is quite short.

------
nazgulnarsil
any studies on the kneeling stools?

~~~
m_eiman
"Ericson and Goldie studied spinal shrinkage of three different types of
chairs while performing video display unit work and found that subjects shrank
more when sitting on a forward sloping chair with knee support than on a
conventional chair.[3]

Drury and Francher studied the original Balans kneeling chair in 1985,
concluding that overall it was "no better than conventional chairs and could
be worse than well-designed conventional office chairs."[4] Lander et al.
conducted another experiment in 1987 comparing the kneeling chair with a
conventional chair and concluded that their experimental data "do not support
the manufacturer's claim that the Balans chair is likely to decrease
complaints of [lower-back pain]".[5] A 1989 study on a sample of 20 subjects
concluded that the Balans chair promoted greater lumbar curvature than the
"straight back chair" during relaxed sitting, typing and writing and that it
could contribute to treatment of lower back injuries.[6] A more recent study
from 2008 confirms that "ergonomically designed kneeling chairs set at +20
degrees inclination do maintain standing lumbar curvature to a greater extent
than sitting on a standard computer chair" and suggests that "Further research
with a greater number of subjects and on different chair designs is
warranted."[7]"

Links to references on the Wikipedia page:
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kneeling_chair>

------
ahoyhere
All the advice like standing, breaks, etc., is very important. Productive,
too!

But you can ALSO help by investing in a chair specifically designed to prevent
the pressure on your leg veins. The only one I know of is the HAG Capisco, and
we have had them for two years now.

They are worth every penny.

The only downside is that, because your weight is all on your feet and ass --
not your thighs -- if you sit with poor posture, your ass will fall asleep.

But this is really a feature, since it reminds you you're not sitting right
and should stand up.

