
PinePhone: PostmarketOS Community Edition - ollieparanoid
https://postmarketos.org/blog/2020/06/15/pinephone-postmarketos-community-edition/
======
fit2rule
As someone with a drawer full of these types of devices, from the neo1973 to
the Creative Labs Zii Egg and Google G1, I'll definitely be picking up one of
these phones when its available .. I've had a lot of fun with my PineTime
watch already, as there are a number of different OS'es available for it .. in
various states of functionality, of course .. but that's the fun of it. Its
_SO_ rewarding to have a device like this, that has so many open options.
Write a watch-face in Python? Hell yeah. Learn Rust and carry my lab projects
around on my wrist - for sure. Its like a breath of fresh air after decades of
walled gardens and proprietary junk.

That said, the Pine-* devices are definitely not .. quite .. ready for
mainstream. The PineTime watch back-face is not glued on, even .. but that
just makes it a perfect hacker statement! Something so very satisfying about
having a device so open, the case doesn't even close. ;P

~~~
blendergeek
>That said, the Pine-* devices are definitely not .. quite .. ready for
mainstream. The PineTime watch back-face is not glued on, even ..

This is a little unfair to the other Pine* products. The PineTime has not been
released. A development kit was released. Of course the backcover wasn't fully
polished. The finished products from PineTime are more polished, while still
retaining a degree of hackability that is unheard of in most of the modern
tech world.

~~~
bigiain
I'll add that my PineBook is a genuinely _nice_ piece of hardware. People who
don't know what it is regularly assume it's some high-end laptop, due to it
looking/feeling/behaving nicer that their $1k+ Windows laptop...

I'll admit there's a bit to go still in terms of "ready for mainstream"
software, I wouldn't buy one of these for my mom still, but that's pretty much
a) linux's problem, and b) _why_ I bought it in the first place... (I've got
several MacBooks and iDevices for all the stuff where I'm happy enough with
Steve's ghost telling me "You're holding it wrong" when it's not doing things
the way I wanted/expected...)

~~~
fit2rule
I'm genuinely happy to be hearing that the PineBook is genuinely nice .. I'd
switch to it from my MBPro in an instant, if I could. Maybe I will, soon.

My intention was _not_ to slag off Pines' efforts. Its just, once you see a
generation raised on iThings and pocketRobots, trying to get them interested
in the hacky nature of Pine, as a platform, is an interesting task.

I think the point is that it has to excel over the iPhone/Android/laptop
classes in some, significant, manner, or else it just gets sniffed at. This is
an important thing to recognise in the quest for platform adoption.

That isn't to say that PineDevices are not productive, more useful. They
clearly are, and the fact of their quality competitiveness is refreshing. The
PineTime watch is actually quite a cute thing to wear. I love being able to
write python code on it, but its also comfortable hardware.

But as a platform, it will need the right attitude regarding the open nature
of things. This takes a responsibility not common in most adopters of
technological tools these days - and with each generational release from the
tethers of last years consumer toy, the task becomes harder... or lets just
say, more _interesting_ for some of the hackers who want to make great leaps
in a new arena.

Someone _will_ write the killer PineDevice app, which won't work anywhere else
..

~~~
lewiscollard
> I think the point is that it has to excel over the iPhone/Android/laptop
> classes in some, significant, manner, or else it just gets sniffed at. This
> is an important thing to recognise in the quest for platform adoption.

If you see mainstream domination as the goal, e.g. to surpass Android or iOS,
you'll probably be disappointed. I see it as giving those of us that care
about privacy, security and openness a way to opt out of the Apple/Google
almost-duopoly, just as Linux distributions do for the Apple/Microsoft one on
the desktop.

For me, it only needs to be just about good enough to use as a daily driver,
for now. I know I will be buying the shit out of one when these are available
in July.

~~~
bigiain
Totally this.

I messaged friends yesterday saying "I'm totally gonna get one of these, and
hope _so_ much I get stopped and asked if they can see my phone next time I
cross a US border..." I'd be all like "Sure! Plug this into your Cellebrite
UFED! Knock yourselves out!!!"

------
harry8
Every time one of these comes up I shed tears for the nokia n900 and maemo
which was a linux, fully-functional smartphone that worked great.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nokia_N900](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nokia_N900)

Imagine if they'd just kept it around and upgraded it in hardware and software
gently as a low-ish priority. It was already fantastic. Given security updates
it's still better than any droid and less icky than any apple phone.

~~~
Multicomp
I'm currently prepping a Fxtec Pro1 that will become a daily driver once
Lineage OS is stable on it (thanks TDM for your hard work - once I find a book
on how to mod android ROMs I'm gonna join ya).

It turns out that I really wanted this N900 instead, I just didn't know it and
at the time was too young to know about it.

There was some sort of attempted revival product called the Neo900 but it
looks like it is dead / not updated any more. [1]

In the meantime, I will definitely order a PinePhone once they are in general
availability and not pre-orders (sorry but Fxtec burned me so bad to get the
Pro1 that I've learned my lesson RE: mobile device pre-orders), and I
definitely will if Pine produces a physical keyboard for the PinePhone.

[1] [https://my.neo900.org/](https://my.neo900.org/)

~~~
ocdtrekkie
I'm really intrigued by the Fxtec hardware, but I won't buy a phone that ships
with Android. I'd buy in a heartbeat if they supported a Linux SKU of the
thing.

Definitely interested in adding Pine's take on keyboards to my PinePhone.

~~~
aerique
I don't know what you mean with "SKU" but SailfishOS seems to run on it:
[https://community.fxtec.com/topic/2467-community-
build32120u...](https://community.fxtec.com/topic/2467-community-
build32120updated-jan-20-sailfish-os-for-fxtec-pro1/)

( [https://community.fxtec.com/topic/2955-community-
buildsailfi...](https://community.fxtec.com/topic/2955-community-
buildsailfishos33016-updated-may-6-2020/) )

~~~
ocdtrekkie
I mean sell me a product that doesn't ship with Android on it. I don't have
the money to burn on expensive hardware that I then have to figure out how to
flash with a probably unsupported OS to get to work.

------
megous
I've also made HDMI over USB-C work recently:

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19gryM8n9kU](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19gryM8n9kU)

This device will be a nice portable computer, so I can travel lightly with a
phone, but use it as full blown desktop anywhere I can get hold of a monitor
and an USB keyboard/mouse, without having to downgrade my user experience to
Android.

~~~
ryukafalz
That's my dream, but I think this crop of devices isn't _quite_ there from a
performance standpoint. If I could have the hardware of today's flagships with
the mobile Linux distros running on these things...

The Librem 5 might be closer performance-wise; I'd be curious to see how it
performs docked. Regardless though, both devices have accelerated development
of real mobile Linux DEs, and I'm grateful for that.

Exciting times!

~~~
freeqaz
What about using your phone as a thin client of sorts? I've used Docker-
Machine on an external VPS before when my laptop didn't have enough RAM. The
experience was pretty decent (npm install didn't run locally).

I would run my code editor locally and sync the files to the remote box.

Using my phone with external monitor/keyboard/mouse as a thin client seems
fairly reasonable in 2020!

~~~
ryukafalz
That would be basically necessary for this kind of workflow, yeah. But the
PinePhone isn’t quite at that level even; we’re talking hardware that’s going
to feel unacceptably slow at fairly basic things like web browsing compared to
even a low-spec x86 laptop.

Which is not to say it’s unusable, but keep in mind this is a $150 phone and
the software is still a work in progress as well. If you’re expecting to use
something like this docked as a workstation... well, it’s worth tempering your
expectations.

~~~
fsflover
> unacceptably slow at fairly basic things like web browsing

Are you sure?
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bH3RbrwhNd8](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bH3RbrwhNd8)

~~~
ryukafalz
>compared to even a low-spec x86 laptop

I mean... I have a Braveheart edition PinePhone sitting right next to me, and
it's _usable_ , but I don't think I'd want to do even light development work
on it. Not because an editor wouldn't run just fine on it (it probably would)
but because of all the documentation I'd need to look up online during that
process.

It's just sluggish enough with a few webpages open to make that sound pretty
unpleasant. But fair, "unacceptably slow" may have been a bit hyperbolic.

(As it stands, I do have a PineTab on preorder, so... I’ll likely be giving it
a try then, and that has nearly the same hardware as I understand.)

------
627467
Lately I've been thinking of the ethics of buying Apple iOS devices compared
to more opened devices - most, yet, not all Android devices. In the long term,
iOS device are doomed to become unserviceable my users/enthusiasts dues to its
closed nature, while many Android devices seem to have it's usefulness
extended in time by efforts such as postmarketOS.

Is there an inherent quality of iOS devices that make them unsupportable.

Any given gen of iOS device has, arguably, more devices than any given flavor
of Android devices (more fragmentation in Android platform) so in theory it
would be more fruitful and impactful to extend the use of iOS devices (if at
all possible) yet, this is not what we see. Leading me to think that Apple
deliberately makes iOS devices unthinkerable.

This, to me, leads to the conclusion that buying iOS devices is unethical as
the only long term alternative for iOS device is to have it recycled while
android devices may retain the chance for reuse into the future.

~~~
teruakohatu
> Is there an inherent quality of iOS devices that make them unsupportable.

When you say inherit do you mean the Apple Axx CPU can only only execute the
iOS kernel and nothing else? Then the answer is no.

[https://fossbytes.com/linux-based-mobile-postmarketos-on-
iph...](https://fossbytes.com/linux-based-mobile-postmarketos-on-iphone-7/)

But for all practical purposes it cannot run anything but iOS and any
discussions about running an aftermarket OS is purely academic.

~~~
arghwhat
> But for all practical purposes it cannot run anything but iOS and any
> discussions about running an aftermarket OS is purely academic.

The project you referred to had a follow-up in late april:
[https://blog.project-insanity.org/2020/04/22/linux-with-
wayl...](https://blog.project-insanity.org/2020/04/22/linux-with-wayland-is-
now-running-on-iphone-7/).

Calling the project (or any project, really) "purely academic" with the
implication that it will never evolve is nonsense. Like many other projects
it's of course done for the hell of it, but so is most hobby/open-source
projects, and yet many evolve into something much greater. There's plenty of
reverse-engineering projects out there that have brought open life into closed
hardware.

The question is just whether or not there's enough people interested for it to
happen.

~~~
teruakohatu
"purely academic" is not an insult. I think it a statement of fact of where
running Linux on iPhone is right now. Aluminium–air battery may change the
world but right now they are also "purely academic", as Lithium-Ion once was.

Do you honestly believe the average consumer, or even the average enthusiastic
is going to be running Linux on the latest iPhones anytime soon? Apple is
dedicated to locking iOS, and probably MacOS, more every hardware iteration.
And by running anytime soon I mean usable LTE, GPS, Bluetooth and Wifi.

~~~
arghwhat
The opposite of "purely academic" is not being in the hands of average
consumers and/or enthusiasts, nor is it that everything works and is usable.

Case in point: postmarketOS and UBPorts, as well-established and very serious
projects with plenty of traction, are not in the hands of the average
enthusiast, and still has ways to go to handle even the Pinephone properly.

~~~
627467
Both pmOS and UBports are 2 of the examples I have in mind demonstrating the
conceptual resilience of non-iOS ecosystem: these projects have small and
fluid teams and yet manage to support dozens of devices with different HW
requirements. iOS devices are so homogenous, and yet, so hard to them to be
the center of these aftermarket efforts.

------
caveman787
I am loving this PinePhone concept and PostmarketOS it because it’s cheap, but
because it’s right, safe, user owned and secure OS is what everyone who spends
their money deserves.

------
jancsika
I thought PostmarketOS did not (yet) support making calls.

So what's the point of running it on hardware designed to address the issue of
running FOSS alongside a blackbox baseband?

If you don't need the baseband, what's the usecase that a Chromebook form
factor doesn't solve?

~~~
miloignis
As mentioned in the article and the issues linked, you can already make and
receive calls & SMS and use mobile data with postmarketOS on PinePhone. I have
a Community Edition PinePhone with postmarketOS and have gotten mobile data
working on a data only SIM, but won't be able to personally test calls and SMS
until my new SIM arrives in a few days.

It's a very cool device, and while it's def not a daily driver for most
people, it's a ton of fun to use and seems to be improving quickly.

~~~
ryantgtg
Does it support group messaging? I don’t see that mentioned. That was the deal
breaker for me when I used Firefox OS, Ubuntu Touch, and Sailfish OS in the
past. I loved them all! But they all had a dealbreaker or two.

~~~
ryukafalz
Assuming you mean group SMS: I suspect not, since it seems to be using mostly
the same stack as the Librem 5, and that doesn't seem to yet. (This is my
dealbreaker too; I have a PinePhone sitting next to me running Ubuntu Touch,
but I won't be able to use it as my daily driver until that works.)

~~~
ryantgtg
Thanks - yeah I figured.

This is silly, but I always get confused about whether "group sms" == mms.
Maybe group sms was mms years ago, and things have since changed.

I love trying these alternative OSes (I even thought Windows Phone was
great!), and really hope I can use one as my daily driver in the near-future.

~~~
kop316
Group SMS == MMS. This is the one thing that is stopping me from switching as
well. There is someone who has gotten experiental support, but it sounded like
there is still some work left to get it to work.

------
KingMachiavelli
> As for the hardware, we will be making an announcement closer to date;
> presently we are working on the assumption that the PCB to ship with this
> edition will still be version 1.2. We may, however, decide to make some
> further tweaks to this PCB design. We will, of course, document and inform
> you of any changes to PCB 1.2 there may be in the future.

Hmm, it will be interesting if there are any major things than need to be
fixed with the v1.2 PCB. There were quite a few things fixed between 1.1 &
1.2.

------
haolez
Is the hardware capable of handling an external monitor? This phone could be
very useful to me if it becomes a desktop computer on demand.

~~~
megous
Yes. See above.

------
mikece
I've been researching getting a mobile "phone" that is only ever used as a
hotspot for an iPod touch which runs (1) an always-on VPN and (2) apps for SMS
and VoIP voice calls. So in a way, phone that can't do voice calls sounds like
a good thing to me.

~~~
megous
Where did you get this can't do calls?

------
foo2020
The RAM and internal storage seem to be too less otherwise I might have bought
it.

~~~
avery42
The PinePhone has 2 Gb of RAM, which is plenty for a smartphone (especially
running Linux). You can put in a micro SD card to get more storage.

~~~
sukilot
How is that plenty? Is Android not Linux?

~~~
SahAssar
Android and postmarketos are both linux in the same way as whales and rabbits
are both mammals. It's true, but not usually the useful way to compare them.

------
NikolaeVarius
I think I'll try and use this as a PMP.

~~~
m463
Prototype Mobility Platform?

Percussive Maintenance Phone?

Pimp My Pandemic?

~~~
zootboy
Portable Media Player?

~~~
NikolaeVarius
bingo

------
sukilot
How will this OS be secure? Via obscurity?

~~~
yjftsjthsd-h
Rather the opposite; it runs an up-to-date Linux kernel and an Alpine user
land. An exploit against this would likely work against most servers and/or
containers on the net.

