
Porsche 911: 52 years of staying true to its roots - ingve
http://arstechnica.com/cars/2015/08/porsche-911-52-years-of-staying-true-to-its-roots/
======
sandworm101
Roots? The reasons behind the design have all fallen by the wayside.

The need to keep weight over the rear tires to increase traction was killed
off long ago by increases in tire performance and the development of limited-
slip differentials. Design and market changes have rendered the once
functional shape purely aesthetic. Today's cars are neither fuel-efficient nor
speed daemons. And the engines are water-cooled. So the aerodynamic shape has
lost it's function. If it is holding true to its mechanical roots, those roots
are long dead.

So what's left? From a mechanical point of view it is a rear-engine car
fighting to become mid-engined without admitting the change. The shape's only
function is aesthetic. Anyone claiming its shape or design layout is
mechanically relevant comes off like those poodle owners who insist the silly
haircuts are to keep the dog warm while swimming. If you like the look then
you like the look. Don't try to justify your taste with engineering
gobbledygook.

~~~
brisance
Agreed. Another factor for the transition to water-cooled was because
horsepower sells cars. Put simply it's thermodynamics: there's only so much
heat an air-cooled engine can dissipate before it self-destructs.

~~~
brc
Sorry, but this is wrong. An air-cooled (technically oil cooled) car has no
problem with the transfer of heat. Porsche themselves ran the 917/10k with a
flat-12 air cooled twin turbo engine that could make 1000hp reliably.

The transition to water cooling in the 911 was done for noise and emissions
purposes primarily. A side benefit for them was the ability to buy off-the-
shelf HVAC componentry and not have to engineer a heating system based on
exhaust heat exchange.

It's very easy to get equivalent horsepower out of an air-cooled engine than
the current water cooled models. There are plenty of air-cooled turbos pushing
600hp, and the Singer Vehicle Design 911 engines are producing 400 hp based on
the original air-cooled 911 engine.

~~~
grecy
I understand how a water jacket helps with noise, but how does water cooling
help with emissions?

I would have thought an air-cooled engine would run hotter, therefore burning
more of the "bad" emissions before they even enter the exhaust

~~~
brc
It's also the gigantic whirring fan on air cooled engines that is removed with
water cooled engines which lowers the noise down significantly.

One of the initial engine designs for the 911 was a twin-fan engine.
Apparently it made such a racket that the porsche engineers nicknamed it 'the
threshing machine' and Butzi Porsche canned it on the spot.

~~~
grecy
I don't think I've ever seen a water cooled engine that doesn't have a
radiator fan (or two). Older ones are crank driven, these days they're
electric.

~~~
brc
Sure, and the crank driven fans have been replaced by much quieter variable
speed electric fans as you noted. These are also more efficient as they can be
switched off during highway driving. There are also the thermo-couple engine
fans where the amount of fan-clutch engagement is driven by engine heat. My
other car has one of these and sounds horrendous when driving in heavy traffic
on hot days, but is mostly silent all the other times.

But the big difference between a Porsche air-cooling fan and a crank-driven
engine fan is that a Porsche fan is overdriven and much larger (diameter and
blades) than a typical water cooling fan which is typically under driven and
has fewer blades.

------
brc
Throughout this article and many others in the substantial volume of articles
written about the 911 talk about 'the purists' in disparaging terms, as though
they are some unappeasable group. 'The Purists' are a straw man that must be
run through before a model can introduce changes.

It's more than a bit disingenuous, though.

'Purists' never complained about going from Torsion bars to coil-over, or from
k-Jetronic (CIS) to Motronic, or even lengthening the wheelbase and using
aluminium suspension parts. 'Purists' never complained about extra power or
displacement or bigger brakes.

The reality is that regulations are what have driven most of the changes -
from the body structure to the engines and electric steering to things like
the rear bumper height. Everything from Targas to impact bumpers, exhaust
thermal reactors and catalytic converters, flashing seatbelt lights and quiet
inductions and exhausts are not done because that's what the buyers want, but
because that's what the Ralph Naders of the world want. Maybe they're
necessary. That's not the point. The 'Purists' are just those people who point
out that these things haven't necessarily made the car better.

Funny how the 'Purists' these days are more likely to want a Singer than a
brand new 911, because the Singer is a small, light car with a modern
efficient engine and big modern brakes and suspension. In fact, if you list
the differences between a Singer and a new 911, you get a list of all the
things the 'Purists' have simply pointed out haven't necessarily been changes
for the better.

So enough with 'the purists' already. They're just an imaginary group made up
to skip over the fact that some change was actually for the worse when it came
to the primary purpose of it being a sports car.

~~~
dingaling
Some 'purists' in a local Porsche club with whom I chatted a few years ago
actually preferred the front-engined 944 and 968 when viewed as pure sporting
cars. Perfect balance and spot-on handling ( though I have never driven one ).

But strangely many of them still lusted after a 911 as a challenge, to try to
tame "the beast".

~~~
brc
There is no question a well sorted 944/968 can out handle and out race a 911.

It's not just the challenge of driving - well, they are very different in many
different ways, and that's the sort of thing people like when it comes to
making a special purchase. A 944 is very conventional in comparison, even if
it does have a rear mounted gearbox.

------
zackelan
Is it just me, or does the (otherwise well-written) article smell like native
advertising?

"52 years of staying true to its roots" sounds a little too much like "David
Miscavige Leads Scientology to Milestone Year"[0] for my tastes.

0: [http://www.poynter.org/news/mediawire/200593/the-atlantic-
pu...](http://www.poynter.org/news/mediawire/200593/the-atlantic-pulls-
sponsored-content-from-church-of-scientology/)

~~~
mrseb
Heya. I'm the editor of Ars Technica UK, where this story was originally
published.

It's not native advertising. The author just really likes the 911. Ars doesn't
do native advertising/advertorial. We do some sponsored stuff, but those posts
are clearly marked.

~~~
zackelan
Thanks for the response, I really appreciate it.

Is there somewhere on Ars' website where I can read the "Ars doesn't do native
advertising/advertorial" policy?

As a jaded, cynical reader, the trap I fall into is that if content clearly
marks itself as an advertorial, I know what I'm dealing with and can take it
with the appropriate grains of salt. On the other hand, if content that seems
advertorial comes from a site I normally trust, but with no markings at all,
I'm left wondering if it's a benign "I just really love this thing and wanted
to write about it", or if it's a really clever native ad invading another
space that used to be on the other side of the wall.

What I'd love to see from Ars and other responsible journalistic outlets is a)
a policy about native advertising that's easy to find and b) at the editor's
discretion, if there's an article that may seem particularly advertorial-ish,
a pre-emptive disclaimer that says "Hey, even if this seems like native
advertising, it isn't. Here's a link to our general advertorial policy, and
here's a link to the author personally gushing about how much he or she loves
the Porsche 911 and talking about why they wrote this article."

And yes, I know that it sucks that you guys, as responsible journalists, have
to bear the negative externality of irresponsible journalists publishing "18
insane things you wouldn't think the Toyota Tacoma could do...#7 will blow
your mind".

~~~
mrseb
Yeah, I don't think we have such a public statement at the moment - and maybe
that's something we should rectify. All I can tell you is that native
content/advertorial would be very, very clearly labelled. We would never try
to sneak anything through.

In general, Ars is _very_ above board. Our reputation and authority are
everything. That's why we're one of the very few publications that doesn't do
native advertising - we're just not sure how you can do that, and still
somehow expect the reader to trust what you write.

But yeah, I appreciate that just saying "trust us!" is a bit difficult on the
Internet today :)

------
smoyer
One of my (bigger) regrets is not purchasing a '64 911 with a blown engine in
1982. It was a California car (with no rust which is rare here in central PA)
and the paint was horribly faded but completely intact. As an 18 year-old, I
couldn't fathom spending $2000 on a car with a blown engine. Now that I'm a
bit older, and have rebuilt several cars from scratch, I wish I'd taken the
plunge - back then you could rebuild a VW or Porshe engine for well under $500
in parts.

~~~
mattkrea
Central PA? Glad to see other Pennsylvanians on here.

And yes, the stuff they put on the roads here (and really NY, NJ, most of the
NE US) does some serious damage.

~~~
smoyer
The new saline spray is horrible ... it will eat cars that were impervious to
the rock salt and aggregate they used to spread. I'm looking out the window at
an almost pristine '71 Super Beetle that will be going back into the garage
for the winter sometime in October.

Where in PA are you? I wonder if we can create an HN meet-up this far from
Silicon Valley.

~~~
m_mueller
I assume you guys do know Regular Car Reviews, made by another Pennsylvanian?
He's gotten quite a fan base now, including me.

~~~
mattkrea
Yeah, I see him driving around out this way sometimes. I've only heard about
him recently.

------
lotharbot
I've recently been playing the old Need For Speed: Porsche Unleashed, which
made this a really enjoyable read, and actually a bit useful for what it says
about the handling and weight distribution of different models.

~~~
RBerenguel
Ah, the memories! I still remember getting 1:52 (I'm pretty sure it was either
1:52 or 1:27) in Pyrenees (IIRC, snowy track with rocks protruding on the
road) with flat tires and the Carrera RS, beating the 'standard best time' by
quite a bit. And every time I play a racing game on my iPad I ask me why we
don't get as much quality as NFS:PU had.

~~~
lotharbot
the only "snowy track" is the Alps. Pyrenees has a lot of white gravel next to
the road, which might be what you're thinking of (but there's also green
grass, dry pavement, and fall colors on the trees.)

I wonder if there's a framerate issue or something that makes times not really
comparable system to system. I can run that course in about 2:15 in much
faster cars than the Carerra RS (2000 911 Turbo, GT1, 935, all carefully
tweaked/upgraded) -- with an analog racing wheel and tons of practice. I've
seen youtube videos of people coming in at around 2:05 in those cars by
running insanely tight lines. I can't imagine how you could be even faster
than that in an RS, with a top speed that's slower than what I take most
corners at in my GT1.

And yeah, it's a hugely high quality game, particularly for the era. It was
clearly a labor of love. I've got a handful of games from the 1990-2000 era
that I still play because nothing else captures the magic quite the same --
DooMII, Descent, and NFS:PU.

(Source port links: DooMII - Zandronum at
[http://zandronum.com/](http://zandronum.com/) ; Descent - Retro at
[http://descentchampions.org/new_player.php](http://descentchampions.org/new_player.php)
)

~~~
robbs
Do you play on Windows/Wine or a console? Last time I tried to play I couldn't
get it to run on a computer.

~~~
lotharbot
Windows 7. I installed it straight from the CD. It ran like a dream (aside
from the occasional crash, which was expected for software from that era.)

I put in a new video card last week and hadn't played since then. Now I'm
getting a DirectX 7 error (I'm running DirectX 11.)

------
OldSchool
If you appreciate great engineering as well as design, any one of the air-
cooled cars is a remarkable car. I think most will agree however that the 2.7L
engine was a low point in quality.

Yes, many completely ordinary cars today can match or out-accelerate a lot of
the older cars mentioned in the article but that is only a single measure. If
you're a "car person," you owe it to yourself to spend some time driving a 911
so that you can truly map that image to a physical experience.

That said for the 911, each of the cars that enthusiasts tend to love has its
own character. You can give them all very similar performance specs on paper
and driving something American, Italian, or German will still be a completely
different experience; overall, the fastest car will not necessarily even feel
the fastest; the slowest car that you can consistently drive the hardest might
prove to be the most fun to drive.

~~~
salgernon
What's missing from most cars today, and most drivers experiences, is a manual
transmission. I hadn't driven one in about 15 years, and when I decided to buy
a sportier car for fun driving, it was really hard to find one in my (cheap)
price range. Are cars with the paddle shifter thing anything like a clutched
manual transmission? It always seemed to me that they were just throwing
software into the mix.

~~~
brobinson
You can get a used Cayman S with six speed manual transmission for under 30k
USD nowadays, if you're still looking. It's mid-engine as well, so it has
better weight distribution than the 911. It's a shame that they have to gimp
the Cayman platform so it doesn't take away sales from the 911, though.

~~~
bri3d
The 987.1 (pre-'08) Cayman S that you'll find for under 30k is plagued by the
IMS bearing issue that ruined 996 prices and early Boxsters, though. I'd spend
~40k and get a 987.2 instead. It'll hold value enough to make the price
difference worth it, and even if a low percentage of engines actually fail,
the peace of mind is very nice to have.

Plus they fixed a lot of other issues (better air-oil separator, more oil
pumps, power steering heat soak) that will crop up if you ever take one to the
track.

Overall I agree, though, it's a shame they keep holding back on the Cayman to
keep the 911 on top. The 911 is an amazing car but there's no reason they
should need to keep hacking around physics to keep the rear engine dream
alive.

~~~
got2surf
I think the IMS issue may make the 987.1 Cayman and 996 911 cars some of the
best deals out there today - it seems like the IMS issues don't affect too
many cars (and the issues may have been over-reported on Porsche forums), and
there are solutions like the IMS Guardian
([http://theimsguardian.com/](http://theimsguardian.com/)) to detect IMS
failure before it happens.

To me, a 996 sounds like a great deal today because prices are driven down by
people who don't like the IMS issue and the egg-shaped headlights.

------
_mgr
Urban Outlaw - [https://vimeo.com/44410797](https://vimeo.com/44410797)

His garage is the dream.

~~~
cmbaus
Magnus's collection is beautiful and I love his aesthetic, but I can't help
but think it is the ultra wealthy buyers who own a dozen 911s who are driving
up the prices into the stratosphere. It might be sour grapes, but honestly,
how many Porsche's does one guy need?

~~~
_mgr
In my opinion I think it's generally the hipster crowd latching on to a new
cool. It happens to every sub-culture. Obviously there is a limit to the
supply of old things but I think you will find that once the new shiny cool of
vintage old stuff dissipates the crowd move on and guys like Magnus are still
there decades later doing their thing.

The custom motorcycle scene is a good example of this. So much new stuff
flooded the market and everyone, including the new guys got bored. The shift
to the old vintage and "garage" built stuff became the new hotness and now the
old guard are having to pay stupidly high prices for half a cracked case and
two burnt out pistons.

New comers with money buy up everything. Eventually though, either they don't
have a clue what they are doing and/or give up soon after and just store the
shit with the other failed quarter/mid life crisis dreams.

Like you though, it might be sour grapes.

~~~
moron4hire
The fact that you've attached "hipster" to anything involving internal
combustion engines means that you're just using "hipster" to mean "the other",
like how neocons use "communist" or neoliberals use "fascist" to refer to each
other.

~~~
cmbaus
I do think there is a subculture of "hip" motorheads. Look at Zeitgeist (bar
in SF) for instance. I think Magnus is someone who qualifies as being able to
push fashion trends.

------
dmmalam
There's a mid cycle refresh (992) to be launched soon ( frankfurt motor show)
[1]. The timing of the article reeks of native advertising.

[1]
[http://www.worldcarfans.com/category/porsche](http://www.worldcarfans.com/category/porsche)

------
cherry_su
pg has mentioned the 911 (at least the vintage versions) in his essays about
good design, which usually is timeless. While the upcoming 2017 revision will
be disappointing to me due to ditching the naturally aspirated engines in all
but the track (GT3) cars, here's to another 50 years of 911.

[1]
[http://www.paulgraham.com/design.html](http://www.paulgraham.com/design.html)

[2]
[http://www.paulgraham.com/taste.html](http://www.paulgraham.com/taste.html)

------
chrisbennet
I can't find the quote to link to, but back in the 90's Harm Lagaay (head of
Porsche design) was asked why the doors hadn't changed in 30 years. He said
"It's a good door."

------
tempestn
This inspired me to go spec out my ideal 911. :D Here it is, in case anyone's
interested! [http://www.porsche-code.com/PGFQM4B5](http://www.porsche-
code.com/PGFQM4B5)

One of very few sports cars left available in a manual transmission. (And I
know, automatic and clutchless manual transmissions are really good now, but
if I got a 911 it would mostly be for fun, and I find manuals more fun. I
totally understand if you feel differently.) Anyway, it looks like another
though is the new 2016 Jaguar F-Type. They're actually _adding_ a manual
option for 2016, which you don't see too often! (My F-Type would look like
this [1]; sadly their links aren't as pretty.)

As an aside, I think the Jaguar does a better job with the two-tone colored
interior. You want accents, but not to be punched in the face with redness (as
a punch in the face would often be, I guess). The Porsche actually has an even
redder option than this, where basically every surface is red. :/

Perhaps this deserves a post on the new AutoTempest blog[2]...

[1]
[http://rules.config.jaguar.com/jdx/en_us_seatoff/w5_jscwl01b...](http://rules.config.jaguar.com/jdx/en_us_seatoff/w5_jscwl01b/3ahrc/a-cecvbs_aj126-380-m_st2/a-beltjet_a-
lredhead_b67e_b71e_c51h_f95t-heat-m_lkt_lpdm_z38h_z61t/jdxpayoff.html)

[2] [http://blog.autotempest.com](http://blog.autotempest.com)

~~~
gambiting
Toyota GT86/Subaru BRZ are fantastic cars that can be bought with a manual
transmission, for those with shallower pockets. Still, would really recommend.

~~~
tempestn
Oooh and the GT86 comes in a convertible^! Nice; thanks for sharing. My first
sports car was actually a 1990 Toyota Supra Turbo Targa, so the GT86 has a bit
of a sentimental bonus for me too. To be clear, as much fun as it is
'building' brand new 911s and F-Types, if I were to ever buy one it would
probably be a few years old. At the moment I'm quite happy with my 2003 Z4
3.0i.

^Edit: looks like the convertible is actually just a concept at this stage.
Still, perhaps soon!

~~~
gambiting
GT86/BRZ are getting very very popular because they are cheap and offer
something that was hard to get for years now - no-nonsense performance and
handling, without lots of fancy tech. Simple, 2.0L naturally aspirated Boxer
engine, rear wheel drive, fantastic 6-speed transmission. And then you can
start working from there, if you have the dough to spend, or if you don't then
it's still a superb car which is incredibly enjoyable to drive.

------
digitalzombie
The purists just want to make sure that 911 continue its nickname of
widowmaker.

911 is a very beautiful and legendary car with good heritage but it is known
to kill people.

I'm glad for the regulations and car have been much safer than ever. I think
if you want a track then you should buy one not a civilian car that can take
you sideway cause you've managed to push over your driving limit.

~~~
spacecowboy_lon
One of recent top gears had the line (re Porsche) "and then it try's to kill
you"

------
galago
This really does feel like an advertisement. Maybe its in that grey area where
the vendor really helps them a lot with the article.

------
njharman
Porsche. like most souless car companies, made a mini-van crossover suv
whatever. That is not staying true to its roots.

------
mipapage
"Racing driver and race engineer Mark Donohue..."

A bit off topic, but it was nice to read this name, a fellow who was the topic
of some great articles in Sports Car (not cars) Illustrated back in the late
80s. If you ever get a chance to read them they were great fun.

------
ProAm
"Porsche: Laziest designers in the wuurld" \- Jeremy Clarkson

------
Hydraulix989
This is such a Silicon Valley article to post on HN.

------
rokhayakebe
Which one is your favorite?

------
curiousjorge
I love this car but hate its look precisely because it has remained unchanged.
It reminds me of a souped up volkswagon.

