
This Is the Gyro-Stabilized, Two-Wheeled Future of Transportation - evo_9
http://www.wired.com/autopia/2012/05/lit-motors-c1/
======
ChuckMcM
This is a cool concept, although I doubt it will be ready by 2014 at their
current rate. My reasoning on that is that you have to have a complete pre-
production vehicle before you can even start safety testing. But that isn't a
knock, I like optimism as much as the next person.

The horizontal flywheel concept is quite cool, and I'm glad they avoided the
problem of earlier attempts which just had one (cars that did this would
change their front/back weight balance going around turns in a non-helpful
way) Having both (and running them in opposite directions!) means you can
cancel out that effect.

I'd worry a bit about the need to keep them spun up at 'idle', its a work load
that electric vehicles don't normally carry, but you do get some of that back
in efficiency gains when using them as dynamic energy storage so perhaps it is
a wash. Would love to see the math on that.

If they wanted to hit the tri-fecta of buzzword viral bingo they should use a
3D printer to print the body out of carbon fiber or something :-)

~~~
lloeki
Amusingly the problems you mention are inherent to a two-wheeler, and given
the necessary dimensions of the egg-shaped outside you might as well add some
more wheels at the corners to solve the stability problem. Then you end up
with something like Renault Twizy [0] (look at the top view on page 2 to get
an idea of its dimensions), currently sold today starting at 7000€, plus
50€/month of battery rent.

I would not have bet on that vehicle but it seems to be selling, since I
already encountered a bunch of them.

A bunch of stats (for the topmost model, as the lower one is limited in power
and does not require a driving license):

    
    
        13kW/17ch
        80km/h top speed
        0-45km/h in 6.1s
        100km range
        6.1kWh battery 
        473kg with battery (~100kg)
    

[0]
[http://www.renault.fr/media/e-brochures/att00409285/ebrochur...](http://www.renault.fr/media/e-brochures/att00409285/ebrochure-
twizy.pdf)

~~~
jack-r-abbit
I always wonder how things with no doors do when it rains. It seems if I
commuted in that thing and it rained, I'd show to work soaked.

~~~
arethuza
There are models with no doors or half doors - apparently some legislation
somewhere would require a heated front screen if it had full doors:

[http://www.expertreviews.co.uk/car-tech/1284439/renault-
twiz...](http://www.expertreviews.co.uk/car-tech/1284439/renault-twizy-
preview)

~~~
jack-r-abbit
ah... I thought the "half door" was that bar across the opening. It seems that
is a third model which would still get me wet. It seem the half door is the
lower half (of course.. it wouldn't make sense to be the top half). SO driving
that would be like driving with the windows down the whole time. It still
makes we wonder how people make use of these when it rains. Maybe the shape of
things deflects the water out enough to miss the passengers. Maybe I'm just
too spoiled with my fully enclosed vehicle... I'd rather stay dry. :)
Interesting bit about the heated windshield (assuming that is what "front
screen" means).

~~~
arethuza
Actually, the idea of having a vehicle with a windscreen/windshield in a damp
climate _without_ some means of keeping it free of condensation is pretty
scary - so that legislation kind of make sense (at least for Northern Europe).

~~~
jack-r-abbit
oh... don't get me wrong. I understand the usefulness of having a good heater
when it is raining. Likewise I understand the horror of having an inefficient
heater when it is raining. It was just interesting that there is legislation
mandating it. I'll assume that the US has this as well then.

~~~
arethuza
Initially I thought it sounded like a particularly daft bit of legislation -
then I thought about it for a bit..... :-)

------
InclinedPlane
This is a non-starter. This fills the same niche as an electric moped at 6% or
less of the cost. And people can drive electric mopeds on city streets legally
_today_. For less than half the price someone could buy a used, low-mileage
sedan (such as a Civic, Corolla, or Accent), with a trunk, seating for 5,
seatbelts and airbags. And then use the other $8k to pay for gas at $5 a
gallon for the next 48,000 miles. Or, they could buy 2x brand-new 150cc Honda
motorcycles and use the extra money to pay for the gas (at $5 a gallon) for
the next 50,000 miles for both vehicles (100k total).

Doesn't make economic sense. Doesn't make safety sense. Doesn't make
logistical sense. Doesn't make practical sense. Doesn't make environmental
sense.

What's the value add?

~~~
cjensen
I'm just as skeptical as you, but...

Electric mopeds cannot go on freeways. An electric motorcycle is better for
nontrivial distances.

On the other hand, an electric moped which cannot travel faster than 20mph
also has an advantage: in California it is treated as a bicycle and can travel
on bike paths on major bridges.

My main complaint: if neither electric motorcycles nor self-balancing
motorcycles are currently popular, why would an electric self-balancing
motorcycle be popular?

~~~
Yxven
Personally, I've always wanted a vehicle with the speed and fuel efficiency
approaching a motorcycle and a 5-star crash safety rating. Motorcycles are a
death trap, and I refuse to ride one despite their many advantages.

~~~
elviejo
And this is the value add.

~~~
heretohelp
No...it's not. This thing is just as dangerous as a motorcycle.

The danger is from not having the steel cage protecting you, not from tipping
over in a parking lot. Motorcycles aren't even difficult to balance...at all.

They're easier than bicycles in that respect because they self-stabilize from
the speed that operate at. You only need balance when puttering about in the
parking lot, and even then, scarcely.

I have to stop reading this thread. I'm a keen motorcyclist and it's vividly
apparent none of you know what you're talking about in the slightest.

This vehicle is useless.

~~~
DeepDuh
Sorry, but aren't you contradicting yourself? If the danger of a motorcycle
lies in the lack of a cage, why is this useless?

~~~
heretohelp
It's useless because it's inferior to a motorcycle in every respect including
safety.

------
jff
All the seating and cargo capacity of a motorcycle, with the visibility of a
car! There's no way in hell I'd split lanes on that thing; when I'm on my
motorcycle, I have no obstructions and can see all around me, and definitely
know where the edges of my bike are. This looks like a low-slung
claustrophobic nightmare.

Even if it is a very _technically_ cool thing.

~~~
jack-r-abbit
As I understand it, lane splitting is illegal in many U.S. states, but is
considered lawful in California (though there is no law for or against it...
it is simply "allowed"). I might be wrong but I thought the main justification
for lane splitting was due to the air-cooled aspect of motorcycles and the
harm that can come from sitting in stalled/slow traffic (although, where I
live I see this get abused everyday by motorcycles that just want to go faster
than the cars around them). Being electric, this vehicle would not have that
cooling problem and would have less need for lane splitting. Not being able to
lane split would not be a significant negative to me.

Being two wheeled it will be classified as a motorcycle (at least here in
California.. don't know if that is everywhere). Being a motorcycle gets you
other privileges besides lane splitting like being in the HOV lanes and (in
some places) special parking.

~~~
sankyo
I split lanes (San Francisco) to avoid being rear ended by an inattentive
driver. The safest place to be is between 2 cars at a red light. Of course I
like going faster than all the cars around me and I can get a block or two
ahead of everyone by cruising up to the front of the queue. There is a safe
way to split lanes - do not go more than 5-10 MPH faster than the cars, and
watch for gaps because a car will change lanes unexpectedly to fill those
gaps.

I like the idea of the vehicle in the article mainly for these reasons: more
throughput on the roads (every car has only one passenger) and fuel
efficiency. I would like to see a world where people commuted in these and
only used the SUV for bigger trips.

~~~
jrockway
_I split lanes (San Francisco) to avoid being rear ended by an inattentive
driver._

Isn't that statistically the least likely way of getting hit on a two-wheeled
vehicle? Drivers may be distracted, but even the most inattentive look in
front of them.

~~~
barrkel
It's more than that. Between myself and my girlfriend, both 100% powered two
wheeler riders, the only times we've been hit by cars was rear-ending - my
girlfriend twice, me only once. The typical situation is a junction; looking
to make sure the way is clear, the car driver - for whatever reason - expects
you to have already pulled away, and they pull away while not looking ahead,
and instead looking for approaching traffic in the stream they're pulling out
into.

When you're on two wheels, what you want is space. Space in front of you,
space behind you, and ideally space on either side. Space gives you time to
react to the unexpected. One of the most dangerous situations to be in is
having a car tailgating you; in that case, if anything bad happens, you die.
(I don't feel guilty about speeding, filtering at higher speeds, etc., to get
away from a dangerous tailgater, and into a situation where they can overtake
safely.)

The easiest way to make space for yourself in the urban environment - i.e. one
with traffic lights - is to filter to the front and use your acceleration
power to get a lead on the traffic when the lights turn green. The idea is
that you can largely stay ahead of the cars until the next traffic light. If
traffic starts to bunch up, you don't want to get caught in an ever-decreasing
amount of space; ideally, you want to move, safely, towards increasing space,
overtaking and filtering if necessary to do so.

~~~
jack-r-abbit
I've come to understand there is a difference between "filtering" and "lane
splitting". 100% on board with filtering to the front when traffic is stopped
at a light. It is the weaving in and out of traffic that is still moving at a
good clip that bothers me. When I'm driving in 40mph traffic it is quite
unsettling to suddenly encounter a vehicle moving in between other vehicles at
50mph.

------
TylerE
Remember the _last_ two-wheeled, gyro-stabilized future of transportation? The
one that was largely a commercial flop, and which the company president
(<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Heselden>) _drove off a cliff_.

~~~
amalag
The segway does what it's supposed to do. I think it has it's useful niche. It
was marketed as a replacement for all transportation, but that is silly
because only because of the cost.

~~~
fennecfoxen
Speaking of cost, _this_ vehicle will start for ~$24,000.

I mean, I'd buy it for... maybe $5000ish, if I were feeling particularly
spendy?

~~~
WiseWeasel
They did mention that rev two would be around $16,000, assuming they're still
in business. That's getting closer to a realistic price relative to competing
products. Keep in mind that this is competing with commuter cars, not
motorcycles.

You can also deduct the cost of fuel over the vehicle's lifetime. For someone
commuting one hour each way to work five days a week, the cost of gas for a
big car can exceed $200/month, $2400/year, or $12,000 over the course of five
years. That makes the up-front price seem quite a bit more competitive with
gas-powered alternatives.

~~~
TylerE
You need to factor in the medical bills, though. With a loaded weight of under
1000lbs, in any sort of collision, this thing _will lose_. Doesn't really
matter how strong the frame is, it's just simple physics.

Similar situation with the "Smart" car. The passenger cell can take a 60mph
impact into a barrier just fine. The passengers - not so much, the g-forces
inflicted are much higher than a traditional vehicle. Even 12-18 inches of
crumple zone would make a BIG difference.

~~~
WiseWeasel
Unless the person you crash into is also driving one of these, in which case
you _both win_ , relatively speaking.

Safety does remain a very important consideration here, and I'm also wondering
how safe those heavy gyroscopes under your seat are in a collision. They had
better be extremely well-shielded from the passenger compartment.

~~~
TylerE
Even hitting another one of these or a similar super-light vehicle, you both
_still lose_. For survivability there is absolutely no replacement for
deformable structure aka crumple zones.

------
vannevar
If they added two more wheels instead of the gyros, they'd get passive
stabilization and lower cost. They'd also get more room for a larger battery
and cargo or passengers. And since roads and parking lots are already designed
for 4-wheel vehicles, the extra width wouldn't be much of a disadvantage.

~~~
jdietrich
Two-wheeled vehicles have a party piece - they keep moving when traffic stops.
In a city like London or Paris, a pedal cycle is faster than a car for most
journeys. In a city like LA, a motorcycle can be twice as fast as a car during
rush-hour.

This has effects beyond the two-wheeled rider; Remember, you're never stuck in
traffic, you _are_ traffic. A recent study suggested that if 10% of car
drivers switched to two-wheeled vehicles, congestion would reduce by 40%[1].
Currently, riders of motorcycles are at an exceptionally high risk of death or
serious injury. A fully enclosed two-wheeler could be every bit as safe as a
car.

There are also substantial efficiency savings to be made, due to the C1's very
small frontal area. A faired two-wheeler with a recumbent seating position is
naturally very close to the aerodynamically ideal dolphin-shape. A four-
wheeled vehicle could only achieve similar aerodynamic efficiency by being
very long and low, with single or tandem seating, as in the Volkswagen 1L
concept[2] or Shell Eco-Marathon competitors. This substantially compromises
visibility and turning circle, making such a vehicle very poorly suited to its
obvious use as an urban commuter.

[1] <http://www.acem.eu/publiq/PTW_Belgium_Study_FEBIAC_ENG.PDF> [2]
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_1-litre_car>

~~~
vannevar
I'm not sure how safe it would be to split lanes in the C1; it's wider than a
motorcycle, and it's being marketed to non-cyclists who may not be so skilled
at weaving through tight spaces even with gyros. It _would_ be more
aerodynamic, no doubt, but I think we're a long way off from comparing the
relative efficiency of electric vehicles. I think range and carrying capacity
are bigger consumer concerns.

~~~
MichaelApproved
I've split lanes in LA traffic. One of the important parts is watching drivers
heads as you approach to pass them for an indication that they might suddenly
change lanes. That level of awareness saved my life a few times. I don't think
you can do that with the C1, as the driver is lower to the ground and doesnt
have the same field of vision.

------
rmc
_How much force would it take to knock the C1 on its side? According to Lit, a
small elephant would have to hit it broadside to put the C1 on the ground._

So… a car hitting the side then?

~~~
kokey
What I really like about this is that because it's like a motor bike, you
actually have time for the airbags to deploy, when it's being tipped over,
shoved along, skidding on its side or flying through the air.

~~~
RowanH
Having seen the end result of a low speed collision last night between
motorbike and car, with said dude on motorbike tail between legs, and one very
raw burnt calf, very much agree there is a _lot_ of merit in this.

For all the arguments of a motorbike, even at low speeds, no matter which way
you slice or dice it, you still get the wrong end of the stick if you get
hit/drop it.

I myself would make the leap to one of these in a heartbeat when they're
production ready. Huge win for small commutes in and around the city, just
myself.

------
jaggederest
The gyro-stabilized, two-wheeled future of transportation is the bicycle,
people. Seriously.

If you're really into it, you can throw an electric assist motor on.

~~~
startupfounder
They already have them on kids bikes. Now they just need to upgrade to adult
size, lower the weight, strap on an electric motor...

<http://www.thegyrobike.com/category-s/93.htm>

~~~
WiseWeasel
And they should build the batteries into the wheel rims for extra stability.

------
cypherpunks01
Reminds me of a recumbent bicycle, which I was always bewildered by - I live
in nyc and can never imagine riding around on one because I wouldn't be able
to see anything except the backs of vehicles. I feel very comfortable
bicycling and motorcycling around the city precisely because I can see very
far ahead by being higher up than most cage drivers. I could see this gyro
bike suffering from the same problem in the city, which is probably where it
was designed for?

------
dchest
And the past too <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gyrocar>

~~~
eslachance
The first one was commissioned in 1912? Sounds like it would have been a great
opportunity for Lit to actually release it this year... They won't miss the
mark by much, though.

No wait, scratch that, just looked up the word "commissioned"... So if they
release it in 1914, they'll have hit the nail straight on. Good on them!

~~~
dchest
Not sure what you're trying to say. Can you please explain?

~~~
epaik
I think he's referring to the 100 year anniversary of the initial commission.

~~~
dchest
Thanks! Sorry for the confusion.

------
coenhyde
Awesome, I hope this gets off the ground.

It would be ideal to become an autonomous vehicle. Most people drive to work
by themselves and use a car instead of a motorbike for protection from the
elements and collisions.

Imagine how much more efficient the road network would be if it was filled
with autonomous gyro-stabilized motorbikes/whatever this is.

------
ahi
IIRC, two and three-wheeled vehicles dodge a lot of the safety and licensing
regulations of four-wheeled automobiles. Partly why there are so many more
custom motorcycle builders than custom car builders. I don't know what two-
wheels gets you over a three-wheel version except the expense of cool gyros.

------
puivert
Motorcycles don't have "amazing fuel economy": small cars do <100 g/km and
sadly few motorcycles beat that.

~~~
mcguire
This. Admittedly, the aerodynamics of this thing should be better than most
motorcycles.

------
arethuza
Reminds me of the BMW C1:

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMW_C1>

~~~
excuse-me
And will be killed for the same reason.

Country A will insist that it's a motorbike, require you to wear a helmet and
have an enhanced heavy bike licence (because of it's top speed)

Country B will insist that it's a car and require seatbelts, airbags etc.

Country C will only allow electric bikes that have a top speed of 15m/h

~~~
merraksh
_Country C will only allow electric bikes that have a top speed of 15m/h_

You certainly mean km/h.

~~~
phreeza
or m as in miles

------
jahewson
Reminds me of the Sinclair C5... and looks equally dangerous on a road which
also features real cars.

------
bitsoda
While gyros are way cool, adding them for stability reeks of overengineering
when simply adding another wheel could achieve the same effect. This reminds
me of the urban myth of the Russians using a pencil instead of spending money
to develop a zero-gravity pen.

~~~
jrockway
Why do you need another wheel? I don't see a lot of tipped-over motorcycles
lining the sides of roads, after all...

------
drobilla
For half a century, especially in America, we've been hearing about the
"future of transportation" in the form of some car, or car-like non-mass
transit device.

The numbers don't work out, the logistics don't work out, and the
infrastructure doesn't work out. The future of transit is obviously not cars:
not normal 4 wheeled cars, not flying cars, not fancy gyro stabilized two
wheeled cars.

Ideas otherwise are quaint turn of the century throwbacks that ceased making
sense anywhere in non-rural a very long time ago.

~~~
jrockway
The problem is that we've poured so much money into roads that any technology
that doesn't use them is at a multi-billion-dollar disadvantage.

------
hexagonal
How much power do the gyros consume?

And, of course, if you're using them for regenerative breaking, then they'll
have less headroom to counter tilting forces. If you saturate them with regen
load then they won't provide any stabilizing force at all. I hope it has a
couple of really beefy power resistors in case the ECU suddenly has to bleed
off gyro load in a way that won't cause an uncommanded acceleration.

------
timdiggerm
I bet the future of transportation will remember that many people have
children they want to transport with them.

~~~
jdietrich
In southern Europe, motor scooters and light motorcycles are a substantial
part of the transport mix. Scooters are a fast, economical, traffic-beating
option. With fuel at over $8 per US gallon, a 100mpg scooter has tremendous
appeal. It's quite common for dad to ride a scooter to work, while mum takes
the kids to school in the car. A young adult is just as likely to start
motoring on a scooter as in a car; Towns and cities in Spain and Italy are
overflowing with scooters on weekend nights. Most of those towns were never
designed for cars and have a desperate shortage of parking - you can get five
or six scooters into one parking space.

A vehicle like this has most of the advantages of a scooter, without the
obvious shortcomings. It could fill the same role in the vehicle mix in
countries where weather, safety concerns or cultural factors make motor
scooters unpopular.

Most car journeys involve a single occupant. That's a luxury we've been able
to afford until now, but lugging around four empty seats is seeming ever more
wasteful.

------
amalag
Will this need redundant gyros? Otherwise isn't it too risky if one blows out
while you are driving?

~~~
learc83
The article says it has 2 gyros. In the test run one wasn't working so they
had to test it on just one, and it seemed to work.

~~~
amalag
I thought it needed both to stay upright, like one on each side that would
cancel each other out, my mistake.

~~~
lmm
It'll be very bad at going around corners with one gone though (which is why
the journalist wasn't allowed to).

------
bane
Looks not that far removed from
[http://outcaststudios.com/forums/uploads/monthly_04_2011/pos...](http://outcaststudios.com/forums/uploads/monthly_04_2011/post-1606-0-56859500-1303191860.jpg)
which makes me very excited.

------
10dpd
I'm sure they've considered this, but being able to tilt while cornering at
speed is vital for 2-wheeled vehicles. I guess there will be some flexibility
to allow the vehicle to tilt without falling over.

~~~
jmillikin
According to the article, the gyros will allow up to 45 degrees of tilt during
turns.

------
geogra4
I always liked the Velomobile concept.

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Velomobile>

------
studio816
I may have missed something, but how does it stay upright when parked? Is
there a kick-stand of some sort?

~~~
katabatic
There was a brief moment in the video where they pulled a support out from
under it to demo the gyro-stabilization. Clearly, the rolling prototype
doesn't have a kick-stand, but I would suspect some kind of auto-deploying
twin-leg kickstand would be added for production. Something that deploys when
you turn the ignition off, for example, since you wouldn't want those gyros
running all the time just to keep it upright in storage.

------
rbreve
They had one of these in Maker Faire

~~~
tmuir
I talked to one of the guys in the Lit tent, and I remember him saying that
they were aiming for the mid teens as a price point, and that they were
planning for a higher capacity vehicle that was closer to the price listed in
the article. I wonder what changed in the last 10 days.

------
jrockway
Why do they need gyros to balance the bike? I can do that myself.

------
tincholio
No, it isn't!

------
ktizo
To be honest, I wasn't sure about the whole gyros thing and thought that it
was unneeded complexity, until I realised they were also using them for
regenerative braking/power. Then I went ooooo...

If they are really smart with this, and if the gyros are up to the task, they
could use them for ultra fast charging as well.

~~~
tmuir
The gyroscope keeps the vehicle from falling over when stopped. Even without
regenerative braking, thats pretty necessary complexity when you can't stick
your foot out to add a third point of contact.

~~~
ktizo
A lever attached to a hinged stand is all the necessary complexity required to
stop it falling over when stopped.

~~~
tmuir
Are you talking about an automatic kickstand? What if you stop next to a
pothole?

~~~
ktizo
I'm thinking about some metal tubing welded a bit like a splayed out capital
'H', that is the width of the bike and hinged along the middle bar of the 'H',
which you can push forward with your foot and has a spring on it. Attach
rubber ends if you want to make it fancy.

