
Idaho to take back control of privately run state prison - mschuster91
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jan/03/idaho-take-control-privately-run-state-prison
======
Theodores
Compare and contrast with Norway. Also from the Grauniad:

[http://www.theguardian.com/society/2013/feb/25/norwegian-
pri...](http://www.theguardian.com/society/2013/feb/25/norwegian-prison-
inmates-treated-like-people)

Includes this idea that has not been thought of in U.S. prison policy:

"...justice for society demands that people we release from prison should be
less likely to cause further harm or distress to others, and better equipped
to live as law-abiding citizens."

Note how the Norwegian system treated the Oslo bomber, by giving him a decent
prison existence rather than treating him as the worst of the worst. This has
denied him notoriety. He can't 'pay' for his crimes by being cruelly treated.

In Norway the re-offending rate is a fraction of anywhere else. So, for the
Norwegian taxpayer, the deluxe facilities make financial sense.

It would take strong leadership and a generation to move the U.S. 'let them
die by lethal injection' to something more like what there is in Norway,
however, as Idaho illustrates, moves in the right direction can be made by
individual states.

~~~
coolsunglasses
Those approaches have worked better in highly homogenous and culturally
integrated societies.

I'm not saying the US shouldn't experiment with such approaches, it's my
dearest wish that my country take advantage of Federalism and experiment at
the state level more.

We shouldn't pretend we can appropriate every policy or approach every other
country uses in a totally different context.

~~~
krakensden
> Those approaches have worked better in highly homogenous and culturally
> integrated societies.

Translated into from dog-whistle into English, this means "a strong bloc of
white Americans will not pay for social services, safety nets, or anything
else if there is a risk that black people could benefit."

Just so we're entirely clear on the dynamic we're talking about.

~~~
coolsunglasses
Best counterexample is Canada, if you want to be more convincing and less
inflammatory.

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vaadu
Good. The private prison industry has a financial interest in putting more and
more people behind bars. To that end it lobbies legislatures to make more
things a criminal offense and to have longer prison sentences.

This is counter-productive in a free and open society, which should have the
goal of zero inmates. To THIS end prison management needs to be in the hands
of those with no profit motive.

This along with for profit law enforcement activities(red light and speed
cameras) should be abolished.

~~~
shill
"The demand for our facilities and services could be adversely affected by the
relaxation of enforcement efforts, leniency in conviction or parole standards
and sentencing practices or through the decriminalization of certain
activities that are currently proscribed by our criminal laws. For instance,
any changes with respect to drugs and controlled substances or illegal
immigration could affect the number of persons arrested, convicted, and
sentenced, thereby potentially reducing demand for correctional facilities to
house them."

\-- Corrections Corporation of America SEC filing.

~~~
salient
This is why I very much expect a "War on Piracy" or some other war to ignite
domestically, if the war on drugs is ended. There are too many people
profiting from arresting and putting others in prison, and they will fight to
keep that status quo, one way or another. That, combined with NSA, and other
agencies increasing desire for collecting all sorts of data domestically, on
everyone, could make for a pretty terrifying future. Then they could just fish
for crimes through spying, and then send the SWAT teams to people's homes.

~~~
ojbyrne
I like to think that most people are moral (perhaps I'm foolish). If you take
away the war on drugs, and perhaps other ~victimless crimes (prostitution,
gambling), then there aren't going to be that many crimes left.

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jw_
Good. The incentives involved with private prisons are so obviously counter to
the public good that it beggars belief that anyone would support them. Private
prisons do not bear any costs of recidivism - they profit from it.

~~~
protomyth
Yep, if we are going to have private prisons, they really need to pay on the
basis of capacity and not actual inmate counts. That provides a direct
incentive to keep inmate count down.

The second part of this is that public prisons suffer from the same problem as
private prisons. Look at the prison worker's union and what money it spends on
politics in California. It basically backs every legislation that will
increase prisoner counts.

Its not a public or private issue, it is, as you pointed out, an incentive
issue. Sadly, the public sector incentives are just as bad.

~~~
hansjorg
> public sector incentives are just as bad

That's not true. The amount of funds which goes in to this kind of lobbying
matters.

With a private prison system you get not just the funds from prison worker's
unions, but also those from the owners.

~~~
protomyth
Take a look at the money spent by the unions, contractors, and then
politicians repaying the favors in salary, pensions, and extended sentences in
California. It is just as much money and worse from a public trust issue.

------
zackmorris
I live in Idaho and I'm glad this is happening. I've noticed an interesting
trend lately where libertarians are starting to take non-conservative and non-
republican stances that are more in line with what progressives like me might
align with.

Those living in the coastal blue states may not realize how conservative Idaho
is. We have similar politics to Wyoming (Dick Cheney was elected to the US
House of Reps there) but with more emphasis on ranching, timber and mining.
There are small pockets of liberalism in Boise and Hailey. But for the most
part there are no progressive politics here. Nearly all state votes toe the
republican party line. So when a controversial topic comes up (global warming,
alternative energy, healthcare, endangered species, conservation,
sustainability, etc) we already know how the vote will fall and it can be
disheartening.

For example I have never been able to participate in a presidential election
(I still go to the polls for the popular vote though). I think people living
in Austin, TX or Boulder, CO know what this is like. It's like South Park. But
sometimes it becomes so obvious that a policy is failing that it crosses party
lines and gets reformed.

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wwweston
It appears there's recent decision to go this direction for this specific
prison/company but keep in mind this is probably not a sign of a sea change:

"Recently, board chairwoman Robin Sandy said she opposed the idea because she
didn't want to grow state government."

If she's being quoted correctly, that means the chair of the state prison
board has a rather, shall we say, flat idea of good policy, and would _still_
put prisoner safety (and therefore several important constitutional
principles), recidivism, respect for law and order, and possibly even cost
effectiveness all below the idea that the state shouldn't do any more things
itself instead of paying private parties to fulfill its obligations poorly.

------
bcl
Interesting, but not really HN material.

~~~
corin_
I hate to be the guy that copies the HN guidelines (just because it seems to
get done so often), but it feels especially appropriate given your choice of
the word "interesting".

> _On-Topic: Anything that good hackers would find INTERESTING. That includes
> more than hacking and startups._

(Capitalised emphasis added by me.)

~~~
jerf
This isn't very interesting though; one relatively minor state is closing a
prison few of us have ever heard of because one bad actor screwed up. It's not
even a useful political story, because such a minor detail is hardly even
_evidence_ of anything, let alone proof. The same story as a statistical
analysis of nationwide trends would at least be somewhat interesting, this is
just an invitation to vent political opinions.

For those excitedly piling on about how this proves how awful private prisons
are, well, doesn't Abu Ghraib prove even moreso how awful government
imprisonment can be? No, no it doesn't.

~~~
corin_
My point was that for the person saying it is interesting, they are literally
stating why it belongs on HN (based on the official guidelines).

Whether or not it actually is interesting is another question, and a
subjective one. Personally I see your points about this story specifically,
but the flip side is that it creates debate on HN about the concept of private
prisons, which at least has the potential to be of interest.

