
Reddit Just Banned the Subreddit Where People Were Posting Celebrity Nude Images - kanamekun
http://www.businessinsider.com/the-fappening-has-been-banned-from-reddit-2014-9
======
lbsnake7
Reddit has completely nose dived the past couple of years. Both from a
administrative sense, and a content sense. When they first started the gold
program, to quiet the uproar that some users would have more power than
others, they said that everyone would get the features of gold, just after a
little while. They did that the first couple of times but now they don't. They
recently started an IAMA app (why?), which is essentially just a PR machine.
They have very inconsistent admin policies, censoring some stuff not censoring
other things.

A long time ago, there were users that would appear in the comments of every
top post and they were almost always jokes. There were submitters that would
reach the front page consistently. These people had essentially learned how to
game Reddit, finding the right jokes and right material for their audience.
And because of that, over the past couple of years it has became a race to the
bottom in almost every subreddit and every comment. RES makes Reddit usable to
some extent, but my filters filter out 75% of r/all, and what's left isn't
very engaging.

The website has obviously outgrown me, and I have started spending most of my
time on other sites now (sometimes even Digg). And it doesn't matter that
Reddit lost me as a heavy user, cause I'm a nobody and Reddit will still get
millions of views, just that Reddit meant a lot to me. It was the first
website where I actually learned stuff. My Wikipedia usage went through the
roof, reading up on things that people were talking about that I had no idea
existed. Long articles and even handed discussions, occasional humor. I didn't
comment or post a lot but I looked forward to getting lost in it. I miss it a
little.

~~~
madeofpalk
As someone who has been on reddit since 2008, I'm in exactly the same shoes as
you.

While I agree with them at least for the decision or ban this subreddit, I'm
appalled by the communities reaction to it.

That, and the circle jerk of reddit (mostly my local subreddits), lead me it
being the first site I've banned with /etc/hosts
[http://i.imgur.com/Womisb3.png](http://i.imgur.com/Womisb3.png)

~~~
marvin
I still don't get it. Been on reddit since 2006 and it is still by far the
best platform for online communities. The level of discussion is
unparallelled, if you are specific with what subreddits you subscribe to.

------
luma
Reddit is no different than anything else here in America. If you want to post
pictures stolen from phones? Totally OK[1], unless the people in those
pictures have money and thus lawyers. When the lawyers show up, Reddit will
happily pull any material pertaining to the people with money, and leave
everything else as it was.

[1]
[http://www.reddit.com/r/photoplunder](http://www.reddit.com/r/photoplunder)

~~~
Dolimiter
No please, don't turn this into a "people with power" can do anything rant.
Reddit removed the sub because they were overwhelmed with DMCA notices. If the
other sub you mentioned was also flooded with DMCA notices then it would get
removed too.

~~~
true_religion
Actually they'd just ignore it if it all came from one person. If it came from
multiple people, that'd be a case of "people with power get what they want" as
a collection of even ordinary people is a powerful and wealthy force on its
own.

------
madeofpalk
Pretty appalled in the larger communities reaction during all of this.
/r/thefappening is a subreddit whose sole purpose is to host copyrighted
pictures, some of which may be underage.

It's amazing and disgusting to see the lengths these people are going to do
defend their so-called 'right' to shame and embarrass others online. Just
because something isn't strictly illegal doesn't give them a free pass to go
at it.

Edit: If you're going to downvote, please comment and explain why. I can't
think of why a sane person (or, one that's been on HN long enough to be able
to down vote) would disagree with Reddit's decision to ban /r/thefappening and
it's content.

~~~
thesimon
But they are not hosting them, but only linking to them on other sites (e.g.
imgur) which under US law is fine.

~~~
madeofpalk
I'm not trying to make a legal argument here. It's immoral and I fully support
Reddit's decision to do what they want on their own site.

I'm just disgusted at the lengths (awarding/taking away imaginary internet
points) people are going to to 'defend their right' to do something which is
not even questionable - any sane person would agree in that the content on
that subreddit is wrong.

------
jasode
Reddit admins could have garnered more sympathy and understanding if they
framed their actions purely in terms of _site reliability and manpower_
instead of any weights about the morals of various subreddits.

Two admin messages with vastly different theses:

First was the yishan post[1]. The TLDR of that one was, " _we don 't police
subreddits/morals/etc._" The problem with that post was that it was a ticking
time bomb waiting for _any inconsistency_ with the admins handling of
subreddits to be scrutinized and vilified. The yishan post should have never
been written. The reddit masses felt their intelligence was being insulted.

The second post by alienth[2] has a much better message. The TLDR of that one
was " _we 're getting overwhelmed by DMCA takedowns_". Reddit admins can then
drive the point home that they know other subreddits such as
/notfamousstolenphotos are questionable but at least those are not getting
bombarded by DMCA notices. They can then go on to stress that they just don't
have the manpower (technical team and legal team) to address (fight) all of
the DMCA notices to keep /thefappening up.

Reddit was basically a victim of a DOS (Denial Of Service) attack by way of
DMCAs instead of ip packets. It's great that reddit has some lofty ideals of
being "hands off" but it also has to have the manpower to uphold those ideals.
I suppose reddit could ask volunteers to work for $0 salary and review all the
DMCA takedowns coming in but that would be a logistical nightmare.

Reddit could try to maintain a stance similar to Kevin Rose Digg AACS
encryption keys[3] but I don't think they have the resources to do it. In any
case, the yishan post has already poisoned the well and any subsequent message
to clarify the admins' predicament is getting tainted by it.

[1][https://www.reddit.com/r/blog/comments/2foivo/every_man_is_r...](https://www.reddit.com/r/blog/comments/2foivo/every_man_is_responsible_for_his_own_soul/)

[2][http://www.reddit.com/r/announcements/comments/2fpdax/time_t...](http://www.reddit.com/r/announcements/comments/2fpdax/time_to_talk/)

[3][http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AACS_encryption_key_controversy](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AACS_encryption_key_controversy)

~~~
maxerickson
Their messaging is incoherent because they are trying to capture all the good
feels from supporting "free speech" while navigating the legal minefield that
comes with their size.

Never mind that they categorically ban certain types of speech (doxing, stuff
that is illegal).

I suppose if you summarize their messaging as "we ban inconvenient speech" it
isn't all that incoherent, but that isn't a terribly pleasing stand to take.

~~~
_delirium
It seems their dividing line is mostly related to quantity of legal issues
(subreddits generating huge numbers of takedown requests, and possibly other
things like subpoenas). They don't seem to care about inconvenience in more of
the "politically inconvenient" sense, e.g. the neo-Nazi subforums aren't
touched. I've also seen warez-heavy subreddits shut down, though one dedicated
to sharing paywalled academic papers has flown under the radar.

~~~
DanBC
There are a bunch of self harm and thinspo subreddits that are not touched,
until those subreddits start breaking other laws (collecting and distributing
personal information about people under 13 for example). Watching reddit feels
its way through conflicting law and Reddit "hands off" stance is interesting.

------
stopcodon
And they do this while putting out a doublespeak public statement saying they
don't do things like banning subreddits (but reserve the right to), and were
not legally required to in this case.

Read it here: [http://www.redditblog.com/2014/09/every-man-is-
responsible-f...](http://www.redditblog.com/2014/09/every-man-is-responsible-
for-his-own.html)

Here's the comments from their blog post:
[http://www.reddit.com/r/blog/comments/2foivo/every_man_is_re...](http://www.reddit.com/r/blog/comments/2foivo/every_man_is_responsible_for_his_own_soul/)

The admins are getting called out in nearly every top-level comment for
folding to media attention and celebrity lawyers, when other objectively worse
subreddits are actually granted the "hands-off" approach the site claims to
use. Presumably because the victims can't afford legal teams or make headlines
like celebrities can when their privacy is violated.

The leaks were despicable and I understand any business taking steps to avoid
involvement in their distribution, but you can't expect a user-base like
reddits to tolerate the administration saying one thing and doing the exact
opposite in certain cases where there's bad press involved.

Edit: Here's a follow-up post from the sysadmin alienth in response to the
backlash from their decision:
[http://www.reddit.com/r/announcements/comments/2fpdax/time_t...](http://www.reddit.com/r/announcements/comments/2fpdax/time_to_talk/)

~~~
madeofpalk
From what I understand, Reddit admins were getting tonnes more takedowns than
usual (for underage pics etc), which was becoming a cat-and-mouse game, and
took the pragmatic approach of just banning the whole subreddit.

The Reddit communities reaction this whole thing has been pretty sickening -
enough for me to block it in my hostsfile. This was just the law straw I
guess.

~~~
colmvp
Prior to this, I've also seen them take down specific subreddits that linked
to CP, so I don't think this purge is that out of the ordinary for them.

~~~
iancarroll
Jailbait was alive for a long time...

------
bane
The top comment in the thread is absolutely, 100% correct.

[http://www.reddit.com/r/announcements/comments/2fpdax/time_t...](http://www.reddit.com/r/announcements/comments/2fpdax/time_to_talk/ckbga2v)

(lists of disturbing-to-absolutely horrid subs follow in the replies, subs
that have been allowed to be part of reddit for a very long time).

The thing that bothers me more than any other thing is that they "haven't
figured out" what to do with all the gold that was purchased. Really?

Based on the communications form the admins, I think the problem is that
they're making these decisions by committee rather than setting a policy and
having a benevolent dictator enforce it. This makes the decisions like this
seem arbitrary, hypocritical, unethical and bending to pressure from rich
victims while not doing anything for poor victims.

Reddit has serious site wide moderation issues. I think the manpower needed to
meta moderate a site as big as reddit has been greatly under appreciated.
Every time a sub gets shut down, 3 pop up to replace it. Without full-time
admins tracking this stuff, it's just going to continue to house and
distribute this kind of stuff and the every once in a while decision to shut
something down due to legal pressure is just going to continue to inflame the
users.

 _edit_ so here's the answer from the admins as to what should happen with the
lists of reprehensible subs, like pictures of dead children, or people fucking
dogs

[http://www.reddit.com/r/announcements/comments/2fpdax/time_t...](http://www.reddit.com/r/announcements/comments/2fpdax/time_to_talk/ckbh5we)

 _I 'd probably suggest they contact the image host to see if it violates
their TOS and can be taken down. Some (but not all) image hosts may honour
such requests, depending on the circumstances._

 _edit_ here's an AMA with the mod of the fappening sub
[http://www.reddit.com/r/casualiama/comments/2foon3/on_sunday...](http://www.reddit.com/r/casualiama/comments/2foon3/on_sunday_i_created_rthefappening_the_fastest/)

~~~
themartorana
The co-founder of reddit apparently also subscribes to the guilty victim
ideology. It's not the job of reddit to understand the plight of the victims
of any stolen content - it's their fault, after all...

From parent's linked thread:

 _" Anytime they take an image and put it in a digital format—whether it’s an
email to one person, whether it’s in a tweet, whether it’s on Facebook,
whether it’s an MMS—they should assume that it is now public content. They
should assume it is everywhere. And that’s the warning that parents need to be
giving their kids, and that’s the useful thing CNN could have reported on,
instead of making up a bunch of jibber-jabber about reddit."_

Edit: formatting.

~~~
thaumaturgy
Hold up. I've seen this sentiment a few times, and I think it's unfair to
label it "victim blaming" and dismiss it.

There are two different reactions at work here. One is that people's photos
_shouldn 't_ be stolen and re-distributed, and the other is that once you
upload a photo to an online service, you _shouldn 't_ assume it's still
private.

Both can be true at the same time.

The first is an idealistic argument. In an ideal world, you could trust every
online service and every person to do the right thing; you could flash a bunch
of money around in a bad part of a foreign place and not get mugged; you could
be a woman and wear revealing clothing without being subject to abuse. These
are noble ideals.

The second is a pragmatic argument. In the world in which we currently live,
as a practical matter you don't want to trust online services and other
people, and you should be careful about flashing money around in seedy
unfamiliar places, and women get cat-called far too often.

They're two different statements, and we shouldn't assume that just because
somebody argues from one means that they don't believe in the other.

------
waitwhatt
Crappy article. Much better to link to the post by reddit sysadmin alienth.

~~~
bilalhusain
Seconded. Here's the link
[http://www.reddit.com/r/announcements/comments/2fpdax/time_t...](http://www.reddit.com/r/announcements/comments/2fpdax/time_to_talk/)

------
sergiotapia
This is the point for me where Reddit jumped the shark. Not to mention the
entire Zoe Quinn fiasco:
[http://www.reddit.com/r/announcements/comments/2fpdax/time_t...](http://www.reddit.com/r/announcements/comments/2fpdax/time_to_talk/ckbg4fh)

Meanwhile subreddits like pics of dead kids are allowed because of 'free
speech' while some random breasts causes everybody to lose their minds.

I've been using Reddit since 2006 - time to switch over to a new website for
sure.

\---

Comment I saw:

>They decided to get their page hits, reddit gold, and publicity from the
subreddit and then cash out just in time for the Sunday morning news to splash
out the headline "REDDIT BANS NAKED CELEBRITY LEAKS". They're trying for the
good press for Sunday and for the week. Well done, admins.

lo and behold...

~~~
4ad
Indeed. While I despise the original leaker, and support law-enforcement
efforts to catch him/her, and think pretty poorly about the people who made
this subreddit, it's not reddit's place to police the issue.

~~~
madeofpalk
It's not Reddit's place to police their own site?

------
dicroce
In protest you should all switch to using digg.com.

~~~
flavor8
...which is actually not _terrible_ in its current guise, now that there are
no comments.

------
lsiebert
They banned it because it. A. was eating major bandwidth, setting site records
and breaking things. B. Had underage images

The fact that the underage images were of a celeb were not part of the
decision, except in so much that celebrity nudes were creating massive
traffic.

------
vasco
4chan is still open

~~~
sschueller
Is 4chan hosted in the United States?

~~~
opendais
Yes. Its also routed through Cloudflare [US company] and owned by a US citizen
[moot].

~~~
krenoten
The ephemerality of its content significantly eases the pressure to censor
there.

~~~
iamshariq
Heard the word "ephemerality" for the first time. Had to look it up.

Turns out it means almost the same as "temporary". Thanks for upping the
vocab.

~~~
_delirium
Has a slightly stronger connotation than "temporary", sort of... extra-
temporary, such that it only exists in a fleeting sense. Th term is also used
in cryptography:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ephemeral_key](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ephemeral_key)

------
sqrt17
Reddit banned the subreddit because some of the nude images were images of
underaged celebrities.

underage = banned, also on reddit

~~~
Retr0spectrum
This was not the case. The subreddit moderators were actively removing all
underage images, just like any other subreddit.

~~~
revelation
In fact, the Reddit admins notified the moderators of that particular problem
long before they banned the subreddit.

Can you spell "the moment you lose DMCA safe harbor provisions"?

------
miguelrochefort
Censorship precedes demise.

Surprisingly, it seems like people never learn. Censorship never is a
solution, yet it eventually gets used by even those with the best intentions
toward free speech.

I wonder what will need to happen for people to realize that censorship is a
band-aid, not a cure. Whenever we try to censor/hide something, we should
instead find ways for the world to still function properly once that knowledge
is made public.

In any case, I respect what the "leakers" did (transparency is good), and I
respect Reddit's choice to do whatever they want with their property even
though I don't agree with their decision.

Like others have mentionned, time to find a platform that is not so sensible
to censorship.

~~~
madeofpalk
> I respect what the "leakers" did (transparency is good)

What? You're not being serious are you? Are you actually saying that no one
should have any sort of privacy?

~~~
wcummings
Yeah... radical transparency isn't leaking nudes. That's just breaking the
law.

~~~
miguelrochefort
What is good doesn't necessarily correlates with what is legal.

I'm totally aware that it's illegal, but that doesn't mean I can't support it.

~~~
wcummings
In what was is this good for anyone?

~~~
miguelrochefort
Were there not any demand for these? Demand alone demonstrates it's good for
at least a few people.

Generally speaking, transparency makes the world better and more efficient.
You might not be able to see what good it does, but the positive effect is
certain.

Privacy and secrecy is just ignoring the problems. We must see them in order
to fix them, and that's why transparency and communication is so important.

~~~
madeofpalk
I hate to go for the obvious one[1] here but...

'At least a few people' have demand for child porn and enjoy it. Are you
saying pedophilia is good?

[1] Please tell me which logical fallacy I'm using here

~~~
miguelrochefort
I was asked if X is "good for anyone". I did not make any statement about the
objective value (good or bad) of pedophilia, but I do think it's subjectively
(to some people) good.

Given an objective question instead of a subjective one, I would have answered
differently.

