
Why you should not buy Apple computer products - S4M
http://stallman.org/apple.html
======
jjcm
RMS is a smart man, but I can never seem to take him seriously. He has the
tact of a sixteen year old who's looking to start a flame war. Between his
iThings, his Micro$ofts, iBads, and "quotes" all over, I half expect him to
end his statements in lol. The cause that he's fighting for is good, but the
way he fights just doesn't attract anyone to his side.

~~~
stcredzero
> I half expect him to end his statements in lol.

There have been a lot of changes to language on the Internet in Stallman's
time. Stuff that was cool just a year ago marks you as an undesirable now.
"Micro$oft" used to be perfectly socially acceptable on USENET. I wonder who
they paid to get that changed?

~~~
untog
_"Micro$oft" used to be perfectly socially acceptable on USENET. I wonder who
they paid to get that changed?_

The level of discourse was raised, MS didn't pay anyone.

~~~
stcredzero
> The level of discourse was raised

Uh, I would beg to differ. It's stayed about the same, but there's more a lot
more hate motivating everything. Back in 1989, there was still such a thing as
civil discourse. Now disingenuously veiled hate speech is the norm, with the
noise being louder the more important the issue is to society.

If discourse is the lifeblood of our body politic, our body politic is an
undead zombie.

Sorry. It's just depressing out there.

(It used to be that Micro$oft was just a joke. It wasn't until well after HN
that it somehow became "offensive.")

~~~
rogerclark
yes, it was just a joke (depending on your definition of "joke"). but it was
never funny. people who still say that are obviously stuck in the past -- in
terms of their maturity, argumentative skills, critical thinking abilities,
senses of humor, and general cultural awareness.

people who say "Micro$oft" are idiots. the existence of people who are
humorless and lame enough to say it in the year 2013 -- that's what's
offensive. it's not that people give a shit about microsoft or whatever

~~~
stcredzero
_> people who say "Micro$oft" are idiots. the existence of people who are
humorless and lame enough to say it in the year 2013 -- that's what's
offensive. it's not that people give a shit about microsoft or whatever_

This sentence contradicts itself through its sheer uninspired humorlessness.

~~~
coldtea
Only the above sentence was never meant to be humorous to begin with.

Then again, you find "Micro$oft" funny, so what do you know?

------
pslam
In case people haven't noticed - from the footer: "Copyright (c) 2012 Richard
Stallman"

This isn't new writing, and the title should really have "(2012)" in it.

------
jason_slack
I think that Stallman is always interesting to listen to. So is ESR.

But he says: "Apple left a security hole in iTunes unfixed for 3 years after
being informed about the problem. During that time, governments used that
security hole to invade people's computers."

This is really take out of context rather than concrete proof. The original
article is pretty vague even.

~~~
stcredzero
Government collusion is really immaterial to this just being bad.

~~~
jason_slack
what "just being bad"?

Stallman's rant or the lack of patching a hole for 3 years by Apple?

~~~
stcredzero
The lack of patching a hole for 3 years by Apple.

------
caycep
Of course, he uses the Lemote Yeelong. Who knows what sort of atrocities went
into the production of that thing?

~~~
streptomycin
Because X might do something bad, it doesn't matter if Y actually does
something bad.

Do you apply this logic to all aspects of your life, or just Apple?

~~~
caycep
Well, comparing Lemote - a state-sponsored company in one of the most corrupt
business environments on Earth and who likely enjoys almost no regulation
whatsoever, vs. Apple whose manufacturing partnerships with Foxconn, Pegatron,
and the like are probably the most scrutinized out of all the electronics
manufacturers in China, which factory would you rather work for?

~~~
streptomycin
Yes, this line of logical reasoning absolves Apple of everything.

------
dobbsbob
No surprise. Android isn't Gnu compliant either so according to the FSF we
should be using nothing.

~~~
dhruvmittal
I think we can "officially" use triquel or parabola linux on lemote PCs...and
that's about it.

~~~
moogleii
Stone, chisels, maybe horsehair brushes.

------
mamcx
"Apple lures people into the business of developing apps with visions of the
great wealth that a few of them get"

I wonder if developing FOSS software is proven best in this area... (for
individuals, not just companies)

~~~
IheartApplesDix
or to rephrase, If your application a valuable is a labor saving or time
saving advancement, what is the best model to make sure you can benefit the
most from that?

How do you effectively distribute that advancement so that it "rises the
tide"? Is a price a valid indicator of value? No, we see these days that free
services are much more quickly adopted. Most people judge value by
practicality and word of mouth.

If you start extracting value from that service by charging for it, aren't you
effectively negating the benefit to society?

Imagine you invented a murder App. (lets call it iMurder) This app replaced
the need to murder people, through a complex spanning tree alogirthm that
combines social network data and communication and travel restriction
protocols (commonly known as SAML) and a fully immersive augmented reality
overlay. (compatible with Google Glass)

How much do _you_ charge for this app?

~~~
mamcx
You change the metric of succes. If I wanna the most spread, do it for free.
But he is saying about $$$, not reach. So the question remain.

~~~
coldtea
> _You change the metric of succes. If I wanna the most spread, do it for
> free._

Not sure. Linux is free but has less spread than Windows (on the desktop at
least).

In the same vain GIMP is free, but more people use Photoshop.

And Ardour is free but has an very small number of users, even compared to
$1000 DAWs.

So it can vary.

~~~
IheartApplesDix
My badly (un)explained point is that you benefit from free software
indirectly, through cheaper software built on top that you later buy or use,
or in my extreme example, not being killed because the guy who killed you
couldn't run your iMurder app, so you can no longer make money.

------
mrknmc
So what smartphone should I use then?

~~~
CrazedGeek
Buy a non-Nexus and non-Motorola Android phone, install CyanogenMod or AOKP,
and (optionally) install a non-Play Store app store. (This is all fairly quick
and simple to do with recent-ish major Samsung phones, at the very least.)

Or wait until an Ubuntu phone comes out.

(EDIT: For clarification, I am NOT saying any of this would be RMS-friendly,
just a bit more open and less privacy-invasive than the norm right now.)

~~~
gurkendoktor
Wouldn't the phone have to _ship_ with CyanogenMod/AOKP? Liberating a device
after the purchase still rewards the wrong company.

And _Samsung_?

[http://developer.samsung.com/android/technical-docs/DRM-
in-A...](http://developer.samsung.com/android/technical-docs/DRM-in-Android)

<http://news.cnet.com/8301-17938_105-20010533-1.html>

[http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-204_162-57559174/samsung-chip-
pl...](http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-204_162-57559174/samsung-chip-plant-caused-
womans-breast-cancer-s-korean-govt-agency-rules/)

~~~
CrazedGeek
I'm not saying it's an ideal solution, but are there any better solutions
smartphone-wise right now?

And yes, Samsung. Because if we're going to pick off every phone manufacturer
for every misdeed they've done, there won't be any left to actually buy a
phone from.

~~~
GHFigs
Not buying a phone at all would be the RMS-compliant option.

"I refuse to have a cell phone because they are tracking and surveillance
devices." -- <http://stallman.org/rms-lifestyle.html>

------
jpxxx
Mmm. _sips tea_

Anyway, to the best of my knowledge, the jailbreak-detection system mentioned
here[1] was removed as of iOS 5.

[1] [http://arstechnica.com/apple/2011/02/ibooks-to-
jailbreakers-...](http://arstechnica.com/apple/2011/02/ibooks-to-jailbreakers-
no-yuo/)

~~~
saurik
No: was definitely present on iOS 5. In fact, this plagued people during the
first week after the 5.0.1 jailbreak release[1] and was later defeated by
planetbeing as part of "crazeles"[2].

[1] [http://www.redmondpie.com/fix-ibooks-on-ios-5.0.1-iphone-
ipa...](http://www.redmondpie.com/fix-ibooks-on-ios-5.0.1-iphone-ipad-ipod-
touch-after-untethered-jailbreak-using-corona-1.0.5-update/)

[2] <http://theiphonewiki.com/wiki/Crazeles>

~~~
stcredzero
What a waste. People don't know how to use a jailbreak detection system. One
doesn't "plague" people with the information. Doing this actually destroys the
value of it. One should _never_ restrict features and functionality based on
this.

------
cjensen
"Ebooks with DRM ... due to intentional sabotage by Apple".

Nope. It's up to the publisher. For example, all of the Orson Scott Card books
on the iBookstore advertise that they are DRM-free in the description.

------
khakionion
Apple is attacking free software with their mobile patents? Strange, I've only
heard of the Android lawsuits.

Is there an actually-open OS that Apple is pursuing legal action against?

~~~
IheartApplesDix
There is no "actually-open" OS that runs on handsets. The military use is
obvious.

------
uptown
I use what I like. I currently like the iPhone.

~~~
jewbacca
That is certainly the default position.

I use an iPhone as well, because I like it, and I could make that same
statement, but it would be with significant self-deprecation, and the
"currently" would be loaded with subtext.

I'm curious about what you think Stallman's purpose is here? Assuming you're
as unapologetic as taking your statement at face value would imply.

~~~
uptown
>I'm curious about what you think Stallman's purpose is here?

I'm assuming he's taking a principled stand based on what he believes to be
injustices carried out by Apple, and trying to convince others to do the same.
Good for him.

~~~
jewbacca
Having some suspicions of what Stallman's wider goals are, I wouldn't assume
that these "injustices" are the reason for his objection in isolation. I see
from a quick stalk (sorry, I wanted to see if there was some common ground to
build on) that just the other day, you wrote a comment about Google Reader
that seemed to suggest (my interpretation; by all means object if this is
mischaracterized) that controlling your own tools is a more far-sighted and
responsible choice than locking yourself into a proprietary system out of your
control.

Sorry to pick on you (and thank you for responding), but I really am genuinely
curious if others who are aware of RMS and still make the choices that you and
I have, are really on the same page as far as understanding his overarching
philosophy.

~~~
uptown
No problem on reading other things I've written.

If I want to use today's hardware, software, and services - I'm probably going
to come across products from Apple and Amazon (think EC2) and I'm probably
going to do business, in some capacity, with a company that uses expensive
accountants to minimize their tax bill.

I _get_ his basic philosophy on free and open software. Great, great things
have obviously come from companies and individuals that have embraced that
model. But I also don't blame one company for the way things are on much
broader issues like trade, labor, taxes or DRM.

Like I said - good for him, for taking a stand.

------
Soggybottom
No mention about paying 2x for the branding? What's up with that?

------
dsego
Does anybody listen to Stallman anymore? Boy crying wolf.

~~~
gurkendoktor
I make a living on iOS and I still hadn't heard all of these before. Nothing
wrong with keeping track of a company's missteps.

The problem is that he then destroys all credibility by things like calling
the iPad "iBad" ... :(

~~~
IheartApplesDix
Apple lost all credibility with me for the reasons listed in the article.
Given the motivations of each, which one would you trust more?

~~~
coldtea
Apple.

At least they are in it for the money (and some proud in their products), not
some ideology.

~~~
raganwald
I'm sorry to be the one to pull on the yarn and unravel your sweater, but the
belief that the pursuit of wealth is in some way meritorious or beneficial is
in itself an ideology.

So either you mean that you like your ideology of "the invisible hand" more
than Stallman's ideology of "freedom," or you have fallen into the trap of
thinking that "ideology" is a word that only applies to the other guy's
beliefs.

~~~
coldtea
> _I'm sorry to be the one to pull on the yarn and unravel your sweater, but
> the belief that the pursuit of wealth is in some way meritorious or
> beneficial is in itself an ideology._

And I'm sorry to surprise you, but I also believe that. I'm not a liberal or
in favor of the "free market" at all.

But, see, while the belief that the "pursuit of wealth is in some way
meritorious or beneficial" is an ideology, mere pursuit of wealth is not an
ideology.

With all this said, I can clarify my original comment.

My reasoning is, entities with one narrow and well understood goal (money) are
easier to reason and deal with than entities dealing on ideology.

~~~
IheartApplesDix
>My reasoning is, entities with one narrow and well understood goal (money)
are easier to reason and deal with than entities dealing on ideology.

How do you reach such a conclusion? Because you said so?

~~~
coldtea
> _How do you reach such a conclusion? Because you said so?_

No, by examining history (well, those facts available to me), and making some
mental work of drawing connections and forming ideas.

Why not provide a counter-argument (or even just an alternative proposition)
instead of insulting me with the "because you said so" thing?

For me it's obvious --to the point of making explaining it inane-- that a
company dealing with money is easier to reason about and deal with than people
deep in ideology.

A quick definition of ideology is that of a belief system not particularly
moved by facts. This is what makes it frightening.

Sure, corporations have committed huge crimes for money -- but at least you
know what they are after and how they will go about it.

With ideology? Not so much. There are hundreds of millions of victims of
ideology all around the world. From the victims of Stalinism to the Holocaust,
to the Spanish Inquisition, to the Manson family etc.

Whereas economy/money is the domain of greed, ideology is the domain of
whatever. It can raise the more crazy and multi-faceted monsters.

~~~
IheartApplesDix
>Why not provide a counter-argument (or even just an alternative proposition)
instead of insulting me with the "because you said so" thing?

The irony of this statement is lost on you. Suck my dick.

The rest of your post is so god damn pointless I can't even read it. My brain
rejects it outright.

