
A Buddhist monk confronts Japan’s suicide culture (2013) - ahris
http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2013/06/24/last-call-3
======
Estragon

        He had spent seven years sacrificing himself, driving himself to the
        point of breakdown, nearly to death, trying to help these people,
        and they didn’t care about him at all. What was the point? He knew
        that if you were suicidal it was difficult to understand other
        people’s problems, but still—he had been talking to some of these
        people for years, and now here he was dying and nobody cared.
    

When I volunteered on a suicide hotline, the frequent callers were by far the
most disheartening aspect of the job. I believe some of them had borderline
personality disorder... at any rate they were highly manipulative, and a large
part of the training for the job was about how to avoid being taken in /
drained by them. There were one or two people who had figured out the duty
roster for the call center, and you would be guaranteed a call from them if
you were on duty... multiple hours-long calls, if you let them.

The hotline didn't ban them unless they became sexually aggressive towards
female volunteers, I think because they helped keep the call numbers up, which
was important for funding.

~~~
lilsunnybee
If they had BPD (borderline personality disorder), in all likelihood they were
not acting manipulative at all, and were just very often in distress and
experiencing very strong, dysregulated feelings and emotions. BPD people being
"manipulative" is a negative and inaccurate stigma, based on misunderstanding.
It is also highly harmful, as people are told to always hold in their
emotions, always be wary of trying to be "manipulative", or reveal their true
feelings to anyone. Since Borderline people likely went through significant
trauma in childhood, contributing to the disorder, they are being made to
suffer a second round of emotional abuse and/or neglect due to ignorance and
people not getting their facts straight.

People with NPD (narcissistic personality disorder), or ASPD (antisocial
personality disorder) might exaggerate feelings to get attention or something
else from you. Though if you were on a suicide hotline, ASPD people would have
no reason for calling if not genuinely in distress, and i doubt you were
encountering that many NPD people.

Is it that hard to believe that some people might actually be commonly dealing
with very strong emotions and impulses they can't control? It's really unfair
of you to label others emotions as fake and attention-seeking, when you really
have very little data to go on as to whether that's the case or not.

And above all "Borderline people are not manipulative!" I wish i could shout
that from the mountaintops, but i can't and most people don't care to listen
anyways. You're inaccurately and likely prematurely applying the wrong label,
and should give even regulars and even people you think you know well the
benefit of the doubt.

~~~
Snhr
Thank you for this comment, I don't know why but I decided to do a google
search on dysregulated and the first link was

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emotional_dysregulation](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emotional_dysregulation)

Hours of browsing similar wikipedia articles to find out something but nothing
describing exactly the issue only to come across an unrelated comment on
hacker news unexpectedly that helps a ton.

------
cphuntington97
>The constant screaming and the running, along with chronic exhaustion,
produce in him a state of low-level panic, which is also a state of acute
focus. It is as if his thinking mind, his doubting and critical and
interpreting mind, had shut down and been replaced by a simpler mechanism that
serves the body.

This is extreme, however, it strikes me as a mild version of operating a steam
locomotive. While undertaking this activity, my brain is occupied with 3
things: How's the water? How's the fire? Are there any hazards ahead? Repeat
ad nauseum.

The water level is very critical. Too much, and you'll be piping water through
the steam plumbing, which has the potential to be very destructive to the
locomotive. Too little, and the structural integrity of the boiler could be
compromised.

The fire is the life of the locomotive. Too much coal can snuff out the fire.
Too little coal and you may run out of fuel. Too much fire wastes fuel and
water; too little, and there will not be enough power to move the train. With
the small models I operate, there is always a hand pump to put water into the
boiler, but on a full size locomotive, it's possible to be in a situation
where you don't have enough steam power to put more water into the boiler, and
as I mentioned before, if the water level gets too low, the structural
integrity of the boiler could be compromised.

A brain busy with the above tasks may fail to notice a train stalled on the
tracks ahead, which could cause a collision.

I often think of operating a model steam locomotive as a state of nirvana.
This is an exaggerated notion, but who could be troubled when the fire's too
hot, the water's running low, see anything of concern up ahead? And by the
way, how's that water level?

My point is that I think the monks might be on to something.

~~~
audiodude
Sounds like a moderately fun video game?

~~~
arh68
While lacking the romantic appeal of a steam locomotive, Pax Reactor [1] is
basically a 1375 MW boiler. Pretty fun until everything hits the fan.

[1] [http://henrik.zsolt-frei.net/Fun/Software/pax.html](http://henrik.zsolt-
frei.net/Fun/Software/pax.html)

~~~
thisjepisje
Thanks for that, it's an awesome sim.

------
themodelplumber
I used to live near the Tojimbo cliffs and have been thinking about the place
(and what happens there) on and off since my first visit. I also really liked
this NYT article, about a retired cop who made it his mission to stop suicide
attempts at the cliffs. 222 lives had been saved as of late 2009.

[http://www.nytimes.com/2009/12/18/world/asia/18japan.html?_r...](http://www.nytimes.com/2009/12/18/world/asia/18japan.html?_r=0)

~~~
scott_s
"Mr. Shige says his approach to stopping suicides is quite simple: when he
finds a likely person, he walks up and gently begins a conversation. The
person, usually a man, quickly breaks down in tears, happy to find someone to
listen to his problems."

Genuine empathy can be both powerful and shocking.

~~~
bradleysmith
_unexpected_ empathy is always particularly moving, especially for the
hopeless. It's a STRONG pattern interrupt to a negative view of the world
around you, and really makes people question themselves.

------
milesf
I was suicidal for an extended period of time many years ago. Doctors weren't
sure what was wrong. The hospital emergency ward gave me clonazepam and
ativan, but that was only a band-aid, and didn't help long term.

Although I wanted to die, my fear of death and an eternity in the Lake of Fire
was a far greater fear (Revelation 21:8). I'm not asking you to believe what I
do. I'm just relaying what I went through, and the mindset I had at the time.
As terrible as it was, that fear I had kept me alive.

Finally found a doctor who was able to diagnose what I had. Got treatment,
suicidal thoughts went away, and am doing much better now.

I don't like to think back on that ordeal, but when I do meet people who are
contemplating suicide, I absolutely can relate and empathize with the anguish
they are experiencing.

~~~
cristianpascu
It's funny that we tell our children not to do things that will certainly have
bad consequences for them, like putting their hand in fire. But still, there's
mockery around after-life scenarios like we'd know something for certain.
There's so much mystery around our existence, consciousness, suffering, that
mocking precautions about after-life is incredibly foolish.

~~~
superuser2
There are at least two religions for which belief in one constitutes damnation
in the other. At least one of them has to be wrong.

Of course, to any person, his religion can't be wrong. (If it can, then it is
at least in some sense not "his religion.") So to every strong believer,
someone else's afterlife precautions are either superfluous or futile.

Of course, that doesn't mean the question should be taken lightly, but it
seems that as long as there are different religions, people have to believe
that other people's afterlife precautions are not correct.

~~~
krapp
When you think about it, once you accept that an afterlife is something worth
worrying about, you're left with hundreds if not thousands of unfalsifiable,
contradictory (and even antagonistic) folk tales and the task of choosing one
and hoping you're right -- although for most people, this question is answered
for them by the circumstances of their birth, and it seems normal, even
obvious.

So really, simply choosing to live the life you want to live is only
marginally less risky than living in fear of the wrath of the god or gods
which happen to coincide with the cultural norms in existence at the time.
Either way it seems a bit like Russian Roulette.

~~~
milesf
Yeah, but how many folk tales do you know of have our calendar measured after
the life of one man? 2014 AD or more fully "Anno Domini Nostri Iesu Christi".

How many of those tales give you a single point of failure, that if you can
explain away one point then internally the whole belief system collapses?
([http://bit.ly/1uNpRwT](http://bit.ly/1uNpRwT) with a modern explanation at
[http://www.reasonablefaith.org/the-resurrection-of-
jesus](http://www.reasonablefaith.org/the-resurrection-of-jesus))

Seems to me there might be more to the story than just a random dart throw at
a wall of choices.

~~~
GotAnyMegadeth
That's one of the main problems with your whole argument. "How many folk tales
do you know...". Just because you only know one, doesn't mean there is only
one. You believe the one you are told, as do the other people else where in
the world and in time.

The Gregorian calendar does attempt to count the number of years since Jesus.

The Bahá'í calendar counts since Báb had his first religious experience [0]

The Bengali calendar counts (possibly) since the reign of King of Gour,
Shashanka [1]

The Buddhist calendar counts since Buddha attained parinibbāna [2]

The Hindu calendar Kali Yuga counts since Krishna left Earth to return to his
abode [3]

I'm sure there are more, I only looked at a few. Look how many calendars there
are that are in use:
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_calendars](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_calendars)

Also, I don't think explaining anything can make a belief system collapse.

[0]
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bah%C3%A1%27%C3%AD_timeline](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bah%C3%A1%27%C3%AD_timeline)
[1]
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bengali_calendar](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bengali_calendar)
[2]
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhist_calendar](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhist_calendar)
[3]
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kali_Yuga](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kali_Yuga)

~~~
mentat
Systematic theology tries very hard to lay out a self coherent view of
Christian theology. As much as I think that some of the conclusions it comes
to are abhorrent, it is possible to do. American Christianity has a less
strong relationship with rationality.

------
Loughla
The only thing I can't get over is how work focused all of the letters are.
Sure, they all have family struggles, but they're less concerned about the
particular struggles and more concerned about how that impacts their work.

This article is phrased as if the entire Japanese culture is based on a
disproportionate work-life balance to the extreme.

~~~
cphuntington97
Are things any different anywhere else?

Our hunting-gathering days are over. We used to chop down wood for the fire;
now, we go to work, and push a button on the wall to stay warm.

To work is to live in modern society.

~~~
coldtea
> _Our hunting-gathering days are over. We used to chop down wood for the
> fire; now, we go to work, and push a button on the wall to stay warm._

Well, billions of people still chop down wood for the fire. Including tons of
people in the west -- in villages in eastern europe for example.

~~~
lmm
> people in the west -- in villages in eastern europe

Um...

~~~
coldtea
There's an "east coast" in the USA. Maybe that's not "west" enough for you
too?

------
mililani
I didn't like some of what was wrote. Suffering shouldn't be praised, and
suicide shouldn't be look as being weak. Some people just can't cope with the
harshness that is life. Some people can't cope with the harshness of their
mental illnesses. Some people just can't cope with the pain that is caused by
terminal illnesses. To say that suffering is good, is to trivialize these
people's plight.

~~~
ahris
Buddhism doesn't praise suffering. Asceticism is practiced as a way to reach
nirvana, the ultimate state of mind that is devoid of suffering.

Some cool reads:
[http://viewonbuddhism.org/4_noble_truths.html#2](http://viewonbuddhism.org/4_noble_truths.html#2)
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asceticism#Buddhism](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asceticism#Buddhism)

------
dragontamer
The Hikikomori has become a standard anime trope. Starting in 2009 in Anohana,
the main character is a recovering Hikikomori (who went through quite a
depressing story that caused him to withdraw from society).

This last spring, there were at least _three_ major animes revolving around
the concept. "Nanana's burried treasure", "No Game No Life", and "Mekakucity
actors" all have title characters who are Hikikomoris.

Hikikomori (shut-ins / NEETs) seem to be a real problem... real enough that
they've entered Japanese Anime culture as a new character archetype.

I don't have much Japanese exposure outside of anime, so I'm not going to draw
conclusions based on this alone. But I thought I'd give my perspective.
Everything seems to tie together: an economic downturn that prevents many
young people from getting a job, the uptick in shut-in culture, and finally an
uptick in the suicide rate... (which seem to only cause more Hikikomoris as
their loved ones disappear and make life more difficult for those left
behind...)

~~~
ranran876
Just to contrast your experience, I had a very interesting two month working
near Tokyo. The whole time I was there I didn't see any anime, or hikkimori
and the whole thing didn't resemble anime at all (though.. granted, I'm not an
expert in the genre). The only places you saw anything anime related was at
gambling establishments and certain districts of Tokyo. I think on the whole,
that subculture is looked down upon - just like in the US.

Most people just live boring normal middle class lives. I'm not denying that
there is a problem, but I think it's not necessarily a statement about
Japanese society as a whole. It's like if goth kids started slashing their
wrists in large numbers. It might be a reflection of US society as a whole, or
it might be a toxic subculture.

~~~
ugexe
You shouldn't expect to run into hikkimori as their very nature is to shut
themselves in

~~~
dragontamer
While that is true, one must always rate experiences correctly. My experience
'with' Japan basically boils down into "Watches some fiction that some subset
of Japanese also watches".

His experience is actually visiting Tokyo, including newspaper and media
coverage of the mainstream in ways that I don't have.

------
chaostheory
_When a candidate presents himself for training, he must prostrate himself and
declare that he is willing to do anything that needs to be done to solve the
great matter of life and death. By tradition, he is scowled at by the head
monk, who orders him to leave. He persists, he continues to prostrate himself,
and after two or three days he is taken in._

 _Apprentice monks are treated like slaves on a brutal plantation. They must
follow orders and never say no. They sleep very little. They rise at four.
Most of the time they eat only a small amount of rice and, occasionally,
pickles (fresh vegetables and meat are forbidden). There is no heat, even
though it can be very cold on the mountain, and the monks wear sandals and
cotton robes._

I often wondered where Chuck Palahniuk got some of his ideas for Fight Club

~~~
javert
Maybe he just made it up. Maybe the monks got the idea from him.

~~~
lilsunnybee
> Maybe the monks got the idea from him.

Not really possible since these are centuries-old traditions in many
monasteries.

------
MarkPNeyer
i used to struggle a lot with suicidal thoughts. i kept wanting to get out
from the loneliness and general sense of "well what's the point? nothing i do
really matters". i felt like the world was broken and alternated between
trying to enjoy myself as much as i could, and wishing i could make things
better.

what helped me finally move past this was repeatedly trying and failing to
kill myself. always someone would come by, or i'd change my mind, at the last
minute. i internalized the idea that it's not possible for a person to
experience their own death. i see it in terms of the multiverse; if someone
dies in my timeline, their world track has diverged so far from mine that we
cannot meaningfully exchange information. i see things like war and the
holocaust as being more akin to network partitions than destroyed hardware.
the big bang was the network splitting for the first time, and portions of it
have been trying to reconnect ever since.

i have no idea whether this is true or not, but it's .. being free from those
thoughts immediately forces me to think "well if i'm stuck here, i have to
make things work better for myself, since leaving apparently isn't an option."

sometimes i think i DID successfully kill myself - years ago, on my first
attempt in 2006 - and i'm in a purgatory now.

i see stories of "life extension technology" being developed, and i think it's
entirely plausible according to "mainstream science" that people my age will
be able to live indefinitely. everyone else tells themselves "well its because
of this new technology" and in the back of my mind, i keep thinking that i
won't have a choice - i'll be alive forever because you can only die once.

i'm sure this all sounds ridiculous to anyone hearing it, but honestly being
able to put aside suicidal thoughts, and focus on improving my life, has been
really, extremely helpful. it sounds like this guy has found another way (i.e.
not involving believing immortality is the default state, or that you are
already dead) to make it happen.

~~~
bashinator
You might be interested in reading about quantum immortality.

~~~
MarkPNeyer
wow, thanks for that. i had no idea anyone else thought this way.

interestingly enough, the first suicide attempt was in 2005. my favorite band
at the time - because it was both optimistic and depressed at the same time -
was 'the eels', fronted by the son of Hugh Everett, the physicist who
developed the many worlds interpretation of quantum mechanics.

music and mathematics, poetry and prose. it comes whence it is headed, where
it's going - no one knows.

------
oldspiceman
Short Vice documentary on the forest mentioned in the article.
[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4FDSdg09df8](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4FDSdg09df8)

------
rdtsc
> by tradition, a mother who killed herself but not her children was thought
> to be truly wicked.

Not sure if cultural relativism here should take precedence and just say "ok
it is their culture, who am I to judge it". On the other hand, it is kind of
dreadful that this was so common, it got to be a cultural tradition.

There is something dreadful about it. You know "you bow before the elders",
"take your shoes before you enter someone's home", "slaughter your children
before you kill yourself".

I guess, like the article says, suicide is one of those "unknown knowns" that
is ingrained in the social subconsciousness. They mention samurai and sepuku
and how certain people were "praised" in a way for committing an honorable
suicide.

~~~
wwweston
I'm not sure anyone's advocating for a value-free and uncritical judgment of
every last cultural practice, and personally I don't think any practice is
above critical review.

At the same time, though, I think it's important to try and bring a holistic
approach and an awareness that every culture probably has some such flaws. By
"holistic approach" I mean remembering that "slaughter your children before
you kill yourself" probably isn't a dangling horrifying imperative, it's
probably an intersection of the problematic side of some values that have
positive sides as well (for example, you could get it from "good mothers do
not neglect the future of their children" \+ group identity over individual
identity + a heavy personal accountability/status culture, all of which have
some upsides as well as down). And of course, just like your favorite band,
your favorite culture probably has something equally horrifying you accept
(millions of abortions, automobile deaths as fact of life, elder
neglect/abuse, money as status, whatever...).

------
apozem
God damn. Sometimes I forget how powerful The New Yorker's writing can feel.
Superb.

~~~
lilsunnybee
The New Yorker has a pretty strong history of publishing often fascinating,
thought-provoking stories.

A journalist from Slate did a piece recently pointing out some of the
standouts, since The New Yorker and it's archives are temporarily free until
October i think.

[http://www.slate.com/blogs/browbeat/2014/07/22/new_yorker_on...](http://www.slate.com/blogs/browbeat/2014/07/22/new_yorker_online_free_for_three_months_what_should_you_read.html)

------
th0br0
This is a beautiful article. Thank you for sharing.

------
hardmath123
Amazing. Japanese culture is the only one I know of where suicide is encourage
and respected—is there any reason for that?

~~~
whytaka
I'd been raised in a semi-Japanese home environment but wouldn't call myself
an expert.

Many people would point to the Bushido culture when it comes to the aura of
honor surrounding suicide. However, I think it may go even deeper.

From what I understand, Japan has never been a fully self-sufficient economy.
The peasantry were always under some feudal rule and a lack of resources had
been the norm. Tragic practises like carrying the elderly into the woods to be
abandoned and die were not uncommon. The elderly knew when they had become
more of a liability than an asset to the family and graciously accepted their
fate.

~~~
cyorir
Referring to ubasute[0].Seems more to be an aspect of folklore and popular
culture than an actual practice, although it has made for the premise of a
good film [1].

[0]
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ubasute](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ubasute)

[1]
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Ballad_of_Narayama_(1958_fi...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Ballad_of_Narayama_\(1958_film\))

------
kinotech
It reminds me of a beautiful Brazilian film I've watched recently in NY:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y5hTIOCuwy4](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y5hTIOCuwy4)

------
walruscop
For anyone who hasn't seen this, this is both beautiful and heartbreaking

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4FDSdg09df8](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4FDSdg09df8)

------
thisjepisje
_[Suicide rates] go down in wartime and go up again afterward._

Why would that be?

~~~
steveklabnik
I'm not a psychologist, so I won't comment on the _why_, but veterans have an
extremely high suicide rate.
[http://www.va.gov/opa/pressrel/pressrelease.cfm?id=2427](http://www.va.gov/opa/pressrel/pressrelease.cfm?id=2427)
(the PDF link has the data)

    
    
        > Of the 147,763 suicides reported in 21 states, 27,062 (18.3%)
        > were identified as having history of U.S. military service
        > on death certificates
    

This article has some discussion on how this data is hard to collect:
[http://www.cnn.com/2013/09/21/us/22-veteran-suicides-a-
day/](http://www.cnn.com/2013/09/21/us/22-veteran-suicides-a-day/)

From that article:

    
    
        > A recent analysis by News21, an investigative multimedia
        > program for journalism students, found that the annual
        > suicide rate among veterans is about 30 for every 100,000 
        > of the population, compared with the civilian rate of 14 per
        > 100,000. 
    

I'd expect that after a war, you have a new population of people in this
particular high-risk group...

~~~
thisjepisje
That's interesting, but what's puzzling me the most is how _less_ people
commit suicide during a war.

~~~
tpeo
If the first step to suicide were ideation, which is usually the result of
prolonged psychological isolation, then wartime simply can't provide the
proper enviroment for it.

During a war everyone huddles together trying to survive, and social and
familial ties could become strong enough that even the thought of suicide
would seem offensive, as if one were abandoning friends and family to their
own luck. And when you have people running around shouting orders, bullets
flying and bombs falling there's simply not enough time to think about
anything else.

What people seem to dread being is left to themselves, not their conditions.
Which is why only reason why war has ever had any defenders, aside from
bureaucrats: it gives "purpose" to men.

Recently enough, Ars ran an article on a study (10.1126/science.1250830),
which I'm not sure how appropriate is to the discussion of suicide, but sums
up this point quite well:

 _In 11 studies, we found that participants typically did not enjoy spending 6
to 15 minutes in a room by themselves with nothing to do but think, that they
enjoyed doing mundane external activities much more, and that many preferred
to administer electric shocks to themselves instead of being left alone with
their thoughts. Most people seem to prefer to be doing something rather than
nothing, even if that something is negative._

------
unlimit
The other thing that got me very curious is how did a monk develop heart
disease. I mean he must have been very very active and probably eating
healthy.

~~~
discreteevent
From the article it appears that he was hardly sleeping in order to keep up
with responding to people. It also makes it clear that other people's anxiety
was passing on to him. Chronic exhaustion and stress might be OK for a young
man if it's part of an effort to break his mind/enlighten him. But long term
it's not surprising that it would seriously affect someone's health.

------
namDa
The concluding paragraph was interesting to read. Not sure the legitimacy of
the story but it is something to think about.

~~~
josephjrobison
Reminds me of "The Rabbi's Dance"

"The people of this town were all excited about the Rabbi’s visit for they
knew that it was something rare and they looked forward to the holy man’s
wisdom which they hoped would ease their suffering and their hard lives. So
for weeks before he arrived, individuals reflected on what they would like to
speak with him about, the questions they would like to pose and so on. They
could hardly wait for the Rabbi to answer their urgent queries."
Continued...[http://basicindia.typepad.com/basicindia/2005/06/the_rabbis_...](http://basicindia.typepad.com/basicindia/2005/06/the_rabbis_danc.html)

------
josephjrobison
This is one of the most beautiful and hopeful things I've ever read.

------
Kiro
OT but what's up with the font? It's very hard to highlight.

------
bsaul
Does anyone else here finds that there is disproportionnate amount of articles
related to death, depression and mental illness that reaches the frontpage of
HN ? I'm not saying it's necesseraly a bad thing, but it makes me wonder about
the effects working in IT might have on mental health.

~~~
conistonwater
One might also think that such articles are _underrepresented_ everywhere
else. In fact, seeing them getting voted up is some evidence that people
actually want to read them.

~~~
tim333
It might be that software guys see depression and think - Ah, a software
problem in the head, how can we fix that? Unlike most of the rest of the
world.

------
xrd
Stunning.

------
jessaustin
_By tradition, suicide can absolve guilt and cancel debt, can restore honor
and prove loyalty._

In this respect I feel Japan's culture is superior to ours in the USA. For
example, I felt Mark Madoff's suicide was entirely appropriate, a final act
that put the rest of his life in a more dignified context. Yet every article
one reads about it treats the suicide as an additional disgrace, yet another
horrible thing we can blame on Mark and his father.

~~~
chris_mahan
My wife is Japanese (born and raised there) and she does not look at it that
way. She says people who commit suicide are losers can't apologize properly
and work hard to make up for their mistake, or people who don't have the guts
to weather through the hard times. Also, the whole samurai/bushido thing
essentially doesn't exist for anyone under fifty over there. I went to Japan
with my family in January, and I had a wonderful time, by the way. Eat at
Joyfull, so cheap, so good! (
[http://www.joyfull.co.jp/](http://www.joyfull.co.jp/) \-- see breakfast menu:
[http://www.joyfull.co.jp/menu/morning.html](http://www.joyfull.co.jp/menu/morning.html)
)

~~~
sosborn
No offense, but making trip to Japan and eating at Joyful is like going to the
Bay area and eating at Denny's.

~~~
chris_mahan
Well, that's not the only place I went to eat. There's this little sushi bar
just a short walking distance from their house where I ate raw frozen thin-
sliced whale meat. (Tastes like a blend of beef and tuna. Unexpectedly salty.
My son didn't like it. I ate the nine pieces in front of me.

Oh, also went to the shabushabu place in the Fukuoka train station mall on the
10th floor. Awesome. Best shabushabu in my life (not too pricy). Great view
from the roof.

Yeah, and Miso soup and rice and other stuff for breakfast.

