
Parrot 2.0.0 "Inevitable" Released - fogus
http://use.perl.org/~chromatic/journal/40114?from=rss&utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+PlanetPerl+%28Planet+Perl%29&utm_content=Google+Reader
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btilly
I'll believe that it will support "all dynamic programming languages" when
they support Python.

Note that I used to believe in the project. I donated money to help them. Then
I started to wonder what was going on there. Then for me the clincher was
listening to Sam Ruby's presentation at OSCON a few years ago about his
experience in trying to get Python running. From then on I've regarded Parrot
as a fun project for those involved which I won't take seriously. Since then
they've cleaned up development, they are making progress towards a far less
ambitious Perl 6 than they set out to create, and I wish them well. But I
personally doubt it will ever become widely used as a production platform, and
I guarantee that it will never be widely viewed as the prime platform for
running a wide variety of dynamic languages. If for no other reason than the
fact that they don't have the people and resources to match what is being done
on other platforms. (Have you paid attention to what Google has done for
JavaScript execution?)

Just consider the facts. Python is a well defined target with multiple ports
to different virtual machines. It is basically a perfect example of a
realistically complex language in wide use. If you look at his background (see
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sam_Ruby>), Sam Ruby is pretty much the ideal
person to work on a cross-language virtual machine. There has been literally
no person that I've heard of in the Parrot project before or since who has as
much relevant experience. And he failed.

The reasons why he failed are complex. But the biggest were all related to
specific people problems (luckily mostly fixed since), and a design myopia
that believes that Perl 6 subsumes all other dynamic languages, and therefore
internal conventions that support Perl 6 efficiently will support everything
else well (emphatically not true). Half those problems are gone. The people
issues have improved, the design myopia has not.

Wake me up when they get serious about supporting Python. Until then any
claims of "all dynamic languages" should come with huge disclaimers.

~~~
chromatic
As I've posted elsewhere, the project to support Python 3 on Parrot is Pynie.
Its repository is: <http://bitbucket.org/allison/pynie/>

You can see the entire list of languages supported and in development on
Parrot at: <http://www.parrot.org/languages>

~~~
btilly
And I've responded elsewhere at
[http://use.perl.org/comments.pl?sid=44429&threshold=0...](http://use.perl.org/comments.pl?sid=44429&threshold=0&commentsort=0&mode=thread).
For those who don't want to follow the link the short version is that I am
unconvinced and still think the claim is false advertising.

~~~
chromatic
> I am unconvinced and still think the claim is false advertising.

A port of Python 3 to Parrot is under active development (with the knowledge
of PSF, which will probably hold the copyright on the project soon). It needs
more developers, but what project doesn't?

Pynie is also a first-class project. Any changes it needs to run well it will
get. (In truth, we test it and a few other high-level languages against Parrot
trunk before we release our monthly versions.)

If you refuse to believe that Parrot developers are sufficiently serious about
achieving our goals and that we work on them with every release, well, that's
your prerogative. It would have been nice if you'd looked at our Languages
page first, however.

~~~
btilly
You're criticizing me for not looking at your Languages page, when in fact
that page has nothing to say that diminishes any point I've been making.

As I already pointed out to you, Python 3 is far from the most widely pointed
out version of Python. The actual versions people are use in the wild are the
2.x line. Judging from <http://pirate.tangentcode.com/>, the unsuccessful
attempt to port Python 2 has been abandoned for several years.

When it started it was called a first class project as well. There was
theoretically lots of visible support. There is lots of prior art on how to
successfully port it to a virtual machine. Some really good people tried to
make it work. And the failure to port it resulted in literal pie in the face
for the lead developer of Parrot.

I know that a number of things have improved about the project. Parrot is much
healthier than it was. But I can't personally bother caring about it until
after I see it succeeding with what should be the relatively easy stuff.

~~~
chromatic
> ... what should be the relatively easy stuff.

Volunteer time, interest, ability, and resources aren't fungible. Find us a
willing cadre of developers to work on Pynie and I'll accept that writing and
maintaining a full Python implementation is indeed "relatively easy".

~~~
btilly
Well you _had_ Sam Ruby. But then burned him out...

If you can get Jim Hugunin involved then I'm sure you'll succeed. Actually you
should reach out to him in any case, because he has more direct understanding
of experience in making Python work with VMs than anyone else out there. Even
if he isn't interested in putting out effort, I'm sure that any pointers he
gives you will prove very helpful.

