
Florida DMV sells personal info to private companies, marketing firms - green-eclipse
https://www.abcactionnews.com/news/local-news/i-team-investigates/i-team-florida-dmv-sells-your-personal-information-to-private-companies-marketing-firms
======
dontbenebby
This is pretty bad. The usual argument of " _if you don 't like it don't use
Facebook/Google/(insert company here)_" doesn't apply here. You _have_ to
interact with the government to get a DL, there are no competitors. Therefor
government services should treat personal information with the utmost respect
and discretion, not sell it off to the highest bidder.

~~~
itake
In Florida, its not personal though and its not just DMVs. Basically if the
government has your information, anyone can submit a FOIA request to get it.
This is particularly bad with licensed professionals (Real Estate agents, hair
saloon cutters, etc.) that have to have a business license to operate.

You can get the contact information (email, home address, phone number) for
all of these individuals b/c its required by law for you to provide that and
it be publicly listed.

~~~
chrisseaton
> hair saloon cutters

You need a government-issued licence to cut hair in Florida?!

~~~
HeyLaughingBoy
Pretty much all states require a hairdresser's license.

~~~
chrisseaton
How does the government determine whether something creative like hair
dressing is at a good enough standard?

~~~
dec0dedab0de
It's ostensibly about making sure you don't spread disease.

Edit: changed mostly to ostensibly, because of comments below.

~~~
civilian
It's not. In many states it's a 6-month program. A "don't spread disease"
course could be done in 8 hours.

It's about making it harder for people to compete with the existing hair
dressers. It's about forcing students into schools. It's about extracting rent
from the economy.

[https://www.huffpost.com/entry/cosmetology-rules-show-
ab_b_5...](https://www.huffpost.com/entry/cosmetology-rules-show-ab_b_5791894)

[https://reason.com/2016/08/03/do-you-have-a-license-to-
braid...](https://reason.com/2016/08/03/do-you-have-a-license-to-braid-that-
hair/)

~~~
jrs235
Funny how the chair of the county GOP where I currently live belongs to a
party, the GOP, that screams about too many regulations and government
shouldn't be picking winners and losers yet he and his wife own and operate a
salon school, which in our state is required to cut hair and consists of
hundreds of hours to "graduate". The hypocrisy is sickening...

~~~
civilian
IDK, If he's voicing his support for licensing, or not doing anything about
licenses, then yeah it's hypocrisy. But there are a _lot_ of regulations to
take down, and this simply might not be high on his priority list. Should his
wife be doing black-market hair styling?

Just because someone is compelled into an arrangement they speak against
doesn't mean it's hypocrisy.

~~~
jrs235
His wife isn't cutting hair, she's selling required snake oil "education" and
debt to others. They say one thing, regulations are bad, but profit off of
them. They don't need to be in the business... But it's profitable. They
haven't and don't fight the regulation that profits them. They are modern day
Pharisees.

------
maxheadroom
> _The I-Team wanted to know how much of that money came from marketing firms,
> but the agency in charge of driver information estimated it would take 154
> hours of research and cost nearly $3,000 for the state to give taxpayers an
> answer._

I'm no rocket scientist but $3,000 (USD) is less than $77M (USD), yeah?

> _That’s because Florida Department of Highway Safety and Motor Vehicles said
> companies buying data on Floridians are not allowed to use that information
> for marketing._

What did they _expect_ it to be used for? Genealogy reports? /s

~~~
CGamesPlay
> What did they expect it to be used for? Genealogy reports? /s

Serious answer, but I'd guess background checks and such?

~~~
Maarten88
> background checks

Without explicit consent from the person being checked? That still seems to be
a privacy violation to me.

~~~
crankylinuxuser
Well, with Republican state governments cutting all traditional income means
(read: taxes) how else are they to afford to run?

This is 77m dollars. Yeah its horrible that your data is being sold. But
there's no privacy amendment in the USA. And state budgets are suffering.

Seems like raising taxes and voting better people would go quite a ways to
stopping these practices from becoming normalized.

(Edit: for those of you who've -1'ed me, it represents the same game theory
that plays out in the electorate for those states. Most states are run by
Republicans - fact. Any politicians, primarily Democrats, whom suggests higher
taxation are blackballed. Nobody wants higher taxes. Yet, the states can't
print money, but still need it. This is how we get into these situations. Game
theory 101.

And the -1's, show that. Because, how dare I suggest raising taxes and making
these crooked uses of information=>money exfiltration illegal.)

~~~
brlewis
USA does have a privacy amendment, the 4th amendment. Concisely summarized
here:

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Search_and_seizure#United_Stat...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Search_and_seizure#United_States)

~~~
maxheadroom
This comment makes no sense because the Fourth doesn't apply to
data/information that you've surrendered to the DMV and that the DMV owns.

Precisely from the same Wiki article that you linked: " _...courts have found
that a person does not possess a reasonable expectation of privacy in
information transferred to a third party..._ ".

So, the right " _...to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and
effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures..._ " doesn't apply, here,
whatsoever. The reason that the DMV can sell the data is a direct effect of
the fact that they _own_ the data that you've surrendered for the privilege of
driving.

In order for your reference to have any standing, jurisprudence must first be
reversed and that seems a dauntingly monumental and nigh-impossible task.

It doesn't mean or infer that I think it's a "good" thing (hint: I do not) but
to simply dismiss it as being protected by the fourth negates the very premise
that has already been established that it isn't (as in this case, with the
DMV).

~~~
brlewis
The comment you failed to make sense of makes a specific correction to a
specific false statement. The U.S. does in fact have constitutional protection
of privacy.

You seem to want to discuss the applicability of that protection to this
specific situation. I'm not especially interested in doing that. But I will
supply the part of the quote you elided: "transferred to a third party, such
as writing on the outside of an envelope sent through the mail or left for
pick-up in an area where others might view it"

If you want to argue that giving info to the DMV is analagous to writing on
the outside of an envelope, feel free. I was only interested in correcting the
common misconception that the constitution doesn't say anything about privacy.

------
JoeAltmaier
Been happening for decades. When I got my driver's license (in the 1980's) in
Iowa, they misspelled my name - Soseph instead of Joseph. I asked for a
corrected license. They typed up another one but didn't go back and correct
the record.

So, I got solicitations in the mail for months for Soseph Altmaier. And that
was before computers were used much.

~~~
asark
I don't get why IRL mail spam is still allowed. It's a fucking nuisance. 95%
of the mail I get is junk mail. Another 4% is recurring bill notices or
something similarly low-value (yeah, I could probably make some of those go
away by logging into whatever-it-is and checking a box somewhere, but it's
overwhelmed by the junk mail anyway). Maybe 1% is something I actually care
about. And I get _a lot_ of mail.

I'd pay a fee for mail service if I must. Worth it. Just end unsolicited bulk
mail, and make solicited bulk mailers ask me to opt in again every year or so,
and stop on a negative response, _or none at all_. It's not free speech, it's
_my_ friggin' mailbox, and others shouldn't be able to damn near DOS it just
because they want me to know about their special offer or lie to me about
politics. I get that the postal service needs that money to stay afloat, hence
my being cool with a fee of some sort replacing the bulk mailing.

For that matter, I'm not sure how a good portion of junk mail isn't fraud or
false advertising or something along those lines. I get a lot of _really_
deceptive commercial mail, pretending to be things that it isn't, like
official notices, bills, credit cards (god those fake card advertisements are
stupid), and so on.

~~~
dingus
> It's a fucking nuisance

It's also a monumental waste of resources: process trees for paper, process
inks, print the spam, ship spam to distribution center, ship spam to local
dispatch, drive spam to mailbox, recipient puts spam directly into trash,
garbage collector drives to collect spam, dump spam into a hole in the ground,
bury the spam.

While I'm sure it's inaccurate, that's about the gist of it, isn't it? You can
substitute trash for recycling to get an equally pointless loop of wasting
resources.

~~~
TeMPOraL
> _While I 'm sure it's inaccurate, that's about the gist of it, isn't it?_

You forgot the waste of electricity and people-hours that is designing the
spam. Otherwise, that's about it for the primary waste. There undoubtedly are
second-order effects as well.

What's worst, this waste is practically unbounded. The answer to your
competitor acquiring customers through sending out spam is to _send out even
more spam_.

------
turc1656
This really pisses me off because you don't even have an option to not do
business with the DMV. Even if you don't drive (highly unlikely in FL), you
still need a non-driving ID card so there's no way to avoid getting swept up
into this bullshit.

I see they have included an opt out link. That's nice. I wonder if they honor
it. Even if they do, 99.999% of the population will never even know to do this
because they've probably never heard of this company (I didn't until today).

~~~
stronglikedan
> _you still need a non-driving ID card_

Just to clarify, the state ID is not required _by law_ , but you will be hard
pressed to get by socially without it.

~~~
JangoSteve
In the posted video, they said it was required for Medicaid.

~~~
stronglikedan
Among other things. You'd have to live a mostly-off-grid lifestyle without it,
but it's possible and completely legal. I.e., you are never _legally_ required
to produce any type of state ID card in Florida.

~~~
jstarfish
Not true.

In most states (FL included) you will be arrested for failing to identify if
there is probable cause for requesting such identification, i.e. a traffic
violation or suspicion of criminal activity.

~~~
stronglikedan
Still true. All that means is verbally telling them the correct name and
birthdate. No ID required. (Unless, of course, you were driving, obviously.)

------
slics
And one wonders of why identify theft happens. OPM, Health Insurance, IRS,
Credit Card companies, different websites you purchase from, have lost our
information. Then they give you 1 year of free monitoring like that f....
matters. But to see a government owned agency to sale your personal
information is beyond sick.

I hope that one day we get to really be the sole owner of our own PII. Maybe
it’s a dream, maybe I am naive, but I sure do hope that day comes.

~~~
nojvek
What we really need is steep fines for losing PII.

With the current government that won’t happen but here’s to hope that in 2020
we get a sane government

------
born2discover
Welcome to the United States, where your own government is making money on
from your sensitive information...

As a European, this bothers me on so many levels. Government should not for
one, sell your personal data and furthermore should make sure if it provides
access to it, that it isn't used for anything marketing like.

~~~
Robotbeat
The federal government in the US has pretty strict regulations with regards to
PII (personally identifiable information). But apparently Florida doesn’t.

~~~
dahdum
The USPS sells address updates in bulk for marketing purposes, and they are
federally regulated.

~~~
tssva
Direct Marketers must have your name and prior address in order to receive
your updated address. So they are providing updated PII to those who already
had your prior PII. You can opt out.

The USPS makes only a few million from selling this data but saves over a
billion dollars by avoiding the cost of forwarding mail sent to prior
addresses.

The USPS is allowed to do this under an exception for it in the Privacy Act.

~~~
dahdum
Thank you for clarifying. Is it possible the data brokers themselves are
buying the update and then selling it onward then? During my last move I
received a boat load of direct marketing mail after my COA but before I
updated any other accounts / license (took a vacation before arriving at the
new home). Many companies I'd never heard of, included some health insurance
scams.

~~~
velosol
If you purchased a new home that public record of sale tends to be the source
of a bunch of spam - often claiming to be important mortgage documents.

If you were renting it's possible your landlord or management company provides
information on new residents for 'cost saving offers'.

------
howard941
DHSMV (what we call it down here) wrote me a couple of months back to let me
know they were hacked. Although they didn't offer ID protection (FWTW) they
did call a few times to remind me that they lost something beyond what they're
peddling.

And speaking of peddling, they're peddling to people banned by other states
from accessing the same sort of material, per
[http://www.fox13news.com/news/fox-13-investigates/senator-
ca...](http://www.fox13news.com/news/fox-13-investigates/senator-calls-for-
florida-dmv-review-after-fox-13-investigation) (2016)

I loved Florida when I moved here in the late 70s but Something Happened and
the grifters latched on to the power handles. We went from pervasive but
obvious corruption through the mid-late 60s, true honest to god sunshine -
passing laws other states modeled themselves after, then wham that Something
Happened. Don't blame me, I voted for Pajic.

------
tombert
I think this is disgusting, but as someone who grew up in Florida, I do have
to wonder _what_ additional information they are actually getting from the
DMV; the driver's license had my name, birthday, and address on it, and most
of that was fairly easy to find, even before the succubus of Facebook or
Google.

I guess being the sort of anti-corporate person that I am, I do definitely
have issue with the US government doing _anything_ to assist for-profit
corporations, but I don't know how much damage was done by this specifically.

~~~
amerine
How easy would it be for a company to source contact and location information
about everybody in a State?

Easy to find? Sure. That’s a bit different than the local governments selling
my information that I’m legally required to give them though. This is shady
bullshit.

~~~
tombert
Fair enough.

I really don't exactly know where we should draw the line of "governments
selling stuff for supplemental funding". I'm definitely against them
aggregating and selling my data, and my immediate visceral reaction is "the
government shouldn't sell _anything_ ", but I don't think realistically any
harm comes from a teacher having a bake sale to pay for additional school
supplies. A teacher at a public school is technically a state government
employee, just like DMV workers.

That said, a line _does_ need to be drawn; I guess it's up for the
philosophers to figure out where that line needs to be.

------
ShirsenduK
In India, you can get the complete nation's vehicle data along with personal
information of the owners.

They say, data is the new oil, so exploit it!

[https://inc42.com/buzz/indian-govt-is-selling-vehicle-
owner-...](https://inc42.com/buzz/indian-govt-is-selling-vehicle-owner-data-
to-companies-and-citizens-dont-have-a-clue/)

------
Duladian
Off topic, but a method to determine who sold your contact information.

Whenever I sign up for a service I'll add letters to the end of my first name.
I've done this for over 15 years and all of my adult life.

Because of this, I've been able to determine the government is where most of
my personal information is sold and used for market material against me.

Disney is also another large culprit of spam. Although, they've kept my
information internal to the companies owned or affiliated by them.

~~~
jstarfish
Private industry scrapes public records without the government's cooperation
though.

If you file for bankruptcy, you will very quickly be inundated by offers for
auto loans and high-interest credit cards. The data isn't sold, it's just
public record.

------
mackman
The Massachusetts RMV does the same thing and I was unable to find a way to
opt out. You can’t drive a car without giving up your personal data to be sold
to anyone who pays the RMV. So much junk mail.

~~~
ehnto
That's what bothers me most, it's sold for such a junk purpose. Your privacy
is bartered off for cents so that a company can spam you with products you'll
never buy. If we put half as much effort into bettering the world as we do
building the advertising machine we would be a utopia.

~~~
SkyBelow
Perhaps the takeaway is we do not incentivize bettering the world enough.

~~~
TeMPOraL
And/or start disincentivizing advertising more. If there were more hoops to
jump through, maybe more people would find something better to do with their
time than advertising.

------
windexh8er
How does this work legally? I don't remember signing T&C when I got my
licensed renewed last. I'm sure there are some legal forms I filled out but
given that it's a requirement to have a state issued license to drive a motor
vehicle how could this be remotely legal without an opt-out option? It seems
like a monopoly if the state gets to profit from selling data without consent
that a citizen is forced to use. I don't live in FL, but... Curious how this
plays out now.

------
kokx
This seems like a hidden form of taxation. Instead of paying money, citizens
pay "taxes" with their private data.

~~~
sitharus
Given the prevalence of the “all taxes are bad” narrative that’s effectively
cut taxes over the past couple of decades I’m not surprised. The money has to
come from somewhere, so if the honest way of getting money is blocked the
dishonest ones have to be used.

~~~
cascom
That pre-supposes that the problem is money - state and local revenues have
been growing at 6%+ CAGR since the 1970’s, well in excess of inflation.
[https://www.taxpolicycenter.org/statistics/state-general-
rev...](https://www.taxpolicycenter.org/statistics/state-general-revenue)

~~~
alexsb92
But what does that look like on a per-capita basis?

~~~
cascom
Well population growth over that period was ~1% and inflation was ~3.7% so
still ~1.3% real increase in spending a year...

------
burmer
What we need for enforcement are honeypot records seeded through the DMVs:
fake people registered at PO Boxes that would allow another agency to
prosecute companies spamming them w mail.

------
janesvilleseo
Happens in Wisconsin too, but when you get your drivers license you have the
option to opt out at least.

[https://www.channel3000.com/news/dot-sells-drivers-
personal-...](https://www.channel3000.com/news/dot-sells-drivers-personal-
information/162472989)

------
totalrobe
NC does the same thing. And if you buy a house, expect to receive endless junk
mail disguised as mortgage documentation.

~~~
Jim-
FWIW, I've had a similar experience. So I was curious who sold my information
and did some digging (was it my realtor, insurance agent, or title agent?). I
asked each of them, they all denied it, but told me:

When you buy a house, all your info is public information on your county's
website (most up to date counties). Unfortunately, I don't think you can stop
them from publishing that information and having bots scrape that data to send
you junk mail.

~~~
jedberg
Most counties redact your name from their public website. But they don’t
actually need that anyway. Your credit report has the address of the house and
how much you owe on the mortgage.

And the credit agencies will sell your info to anyone.

~~~
ehnto
There are also call center programs that call specifically to fill in those
details. You answer, they ask who they are speaking to, then click, they're
gone.

~~~
dredmorbius
Source?

------
sneak
I’m not sure about Florida, but many states also make it illegal to not put
your actual, honest, this-is-where-I-sleep-every-night residence address on
your DL/ID card, too, making this doubly bad, as they then publicize data that
is directly relevant to the physical safety of yourself and your family.

Avoiding it is illegal.

~~~
dontbenebby
And even if they don't voter registration almost always requires a real
physical address, and is often a public record. So victims of domestic
violence, stalking etc are incentivized not to register to vote.

~~~
sneak
There is a program in some states that allows you a confidential state-run
mail forwarding address for this purpose. You can then use it at the DMV and
your state-run forwarding address gets leaked via public records.

Unfortunately, it requires that one ask permission to use the program and
justify their request for privacy; apparently those that don’t have permanent
documentation of their death threats are less entitled to privacy and safety.

The state as fail-deadly arbiter of privacy is an entirely abhorrent
situation.

------
fitzroy
How to Cut Down on Unwanted Junk Mail
[https://www.nytimes.com/2018/03/08/smarter-living/how-to-
cut...](https://www.nytimes.com/2018/03/08/smarter-living/how-to-cut-down-on-
unwanted-junk-mail.html)

I get very little paper mail now except for companies that I already have
accounts with (and who seem to believe that “paperless” doesn’t apply to the
marketing departments).

~~~
chipperyman573
This article reads like it was written by someone who's never tried to stop
getting junk mail. I used to call the listed 1800 number on every piece of
mail I got, return it with NATA written on it, etc... I never once got a
single company to stop. There's literally nothing you can do to prevent it
from coming at you, at least in my experience.

------
gregkerzhner
After I registered my new car in Colorado, I started getting a ton of mail
from fake car warranty scams. I called them a few times to stop mailing this
crap, but they just kept going anyways. It was an address I only stayed at
very temporary, and the DMV was one of the only places that I gave that
address, so I am pretty sure they are doing the same thing.

~~~
cascom
in TX if you get a run of the mill speeding ticket, you are inundated with law
firms offering to represent you...not sure where the data is coming from, but
its pretty annoying

------
kevin_thibedeau
That isn't unusual. NY and other states bordering Ontario sell driver data to
the private company that operates the 407 toll highway. The galling thing is
that most Canadian provinces have data privacy laws that prevent their own
citizen's data from being shared with the same company.

------
SHAKEDECADE
I want to be outraged, But feel helpless. What can I do about this?

~~~
smt88
Call your reps. Seriously. It makes a difference.

Write an op-ed for your local paper.

Volunteer to register voters.

Subscribe to investigative news outlets and donate to ProPublica.

Attend marches and rallies.

You aren't powerless, but you have to exercise your power whether it's on the
winning side or not. All battles in a democracy are losing battles until they
aren't, but the tables don't turn unless people join.

------
colechristensen
I wouldn't treat my name and address as private information.

I have no problem with the phone book, there was a time when everybody's name
number and address was published in a book they regularly left on your
doorstep, it didn't seem like a huge invasion of privacy.

I do have a problem with the postal rates for mass mail and telemarketing laws
– the real source of the issues here.

------
awakener62
This is very annoying and disappointing. I am a resident in the Tampa, Fl
area. There is no other option where I can get a new driver's licensed renew
the title for my vehicle. Since I'm finding out about this now my guess is
there is no opt-out option either. This sucks because I get rid of Facebook,
Instagram and WhatsApp trying to secure my self a little bit. But I just get
screwed in another way.

~~~
howard941
Welcome to Tampa! There's an opt out link at the bottom of the article that
leads to one of the data users.

------
darawk
This is low, even for Florida.

------
justaguyhere
I am fascinated by the steps that lead to such decisions. When someone
initially mentioned this idea, _no one_ in the chain objected? Like, no one
took 10 seconds to pause and say, this is not right? If they did, they got
overruled?

In my team of 7 people, it is nearly impossible to bring up dumb ideas without
someone immediately poking a hole in it ...

~~~
catacombs
> I am fascinated by the steps that lead to such decisions. When someone
> initially mentioned this idea, no one in the chain objected? Like, no one
> took 10 seconds to pause and say, this is not right? If they did, they got
> overruled?

There are plenty of reasons:

\-- Manager is a tyrant and no one wanted to get on his or her bad side.

\-- Directors made this mandatory, with no room for negotiation

\-- Government might be cash strapped and selling this kind of information
might be in much-needed funds.

\-- Government lawyers reviewed the legality of it and constructed an argument
that could hold up in court.

------
gscott
California has created a dns database by dna sample from every newborn child.
And sells drivers license photos too.

[https://www.cbsnews.com/news/california-biobank-dna-
babies-w...](https://www.cbsnews.com/news/california-biobank-dna-babies-who-
has-access/)

------
ev0lv
Texas DMV does the exact same thing.

Article: [https://news4sanantonio.com/news/local/how-the-state-
sells-y...](https://news4sanantonio.com/news/local/how-the-state-sells-your-
personal-information-and-why-youre-stuck)

------
digitalmaster
This is America.

------
_Codemonkeyism
One of the good things about GDPR is, when you give data away, you're
responsible to make sure and control it's not misused. You can't blame the
party which you gave the data to.

