
The international student bait-and-switch - cancan
https://themargins.substack.com/p/the-international-student-bait-and
======
HomeDeLaPot
This article really hit home with me. My girlfriend is an international
student, so I'm all too aware of the ridiculous things these people have to
deal with even in normal times. With COVID-19 and current politics, the
immigration system has gone from slow to glacial, and now they're trying to
cut staff. We've had to worry about work authorization in the past -- i.e.
that my girlfriend might not be able to get a job after college because the
approval is taking so long and that she would be forced to leave the country
if she couldn't get a job within the allotted time. Right now, she can't
legally drive (!!!) because her work authorization renewal, which she applied
for with ample time, hasn't come through yet. In a couple months, we'll be
back to worrying about job loss and deportation...

It's so stressful to worry about your transportation, your income & career
prospects, your education, your friends & loved ones, and your entire life in
the States being taken away because of politics that change with the whims of
the current administration. My heart goes out to the people who have lost the
chance to attend great universities, work at great companies, and live in the
States because of this. Hurting them only comes back around to hurt us.

~~~
thaumasiotes
> We've had to worry about work authorization in the past -- i.e. that my
> girlfriend might not be able to get a job after college because the approval
> is taking so long and that she would be forced to leave the country if she
> couldn't get a job within the allotted time. Right now, she can't legally
> drive (!!!) because her work authorization renewal, which she applied for
> with ample time, hasn't come through yet. In a couple months, we'll be back
> to worrying about job loss and deportation...

What if she were your wife?

~~~
dheera
That is one legal route, but it takes time, and immigration being the reason
for a hasty greencard marriage that the couple wasn't already naturally for,
is never a good thing for the relationship and mental health of the couple.

It does make me wonder though why there isn't a "long-term relationship visa"
for people who haven't reached marriage yet but want to be together and be
eligible to work, and require some evidence that the two have been together
stably for some period of time. In many cases one party is a US citizen and it
would be in the best interest of the mental health of that US citizen to allow
his/her partner to be together with them, and from the government perspective
would thus be indirectly in the best interest of the country.

~~~
thaumasiotes
> It does make me wonder though why there isn't a "long-term relationship
> visa" for people who haven't reached marriage yet but want to be together
> and be eligible to work

What purpose would this status serve that marriage wouldn't? What is the idea
behind planning to be in a permanent relationship, but not marrying?

~~~
dheera
> What is the idea behind planning to be in a permanent relationship, but not
> marrying?

What? This seems perfectly normal to me. At least for me any serious
relationship is always with at least the vision of permanence, starting from
the very beginning of when you call yourselves official -- unless it fails at
some point.

Considering most such failures occur in the first couple years, as you're
still getting to understand each other, it's probably a bad idea to jump the
gun into marriage that early while you still don't have a full understanding
of each other. But that doesn't make it any less "planning to be permanent".

I'd also say that people who meet "the one" earlier on should arguably stay
unmarried for longer. If you meet at 20, I'd say wait till 25+ till you marry.
A lot can change in a person between 20 and 25. If you meet at 30, you can cut
that shorter a bit and that's fine because most people know what they want in
life at 30.

But a 22 year old US citizen who has been in a 2 year stable relationship with
an F1 student, possibly living together, with permanent intent? I'd say don't
rush them into marriage, but for goodness sake, let them be happily together.

~~~
rumanator
> If you meet at 30, you can cut that shorter a bit and that's fine because
> most people know what they want in life at 30.

I'd like to meet that "most people" you mentioned. So far, everyone I ever
knew at best was conformed with the constraints placed on their life.

------
zozin
I too am an immigrant to the United States and it's frustrating to read this,
and not because the reasons most people might think. I came here as a child
and I am reminded every day of the privilege American residency and
citizenship affords me. The family that I left behind in my home country is
still struggling to make ends meet, while I was, as recently as Feb. 2020,
making nearly $200K per year as an attorney. I lost my job due to Covid-19,
but I am optimistic that my future is bright, mostly because America is still
a land of opportunity, unlike the vast majority of the world.

Mr. Duruk's thought's are frustrating to read because he assumes his
privilege. He assumes he's owed an easy and straightforward journey to
citizenship, that his future as a foreign-student shouldn't be jeopardized in
the least by the political whims of the local population, as if the ravaged
parts of THIS nation which screamed out and democratically elected a
protectionist president do not deserve to be heard at the international's
community's expense.

America isn't perfect, no country is, but having lived here for twenty years,
having experienced life in other places, and having traveled internationally,
I wouldn't chose another place as my home--and apparently neither would Mr.
Duruk.

While I do not agree with this administration's immigration policies, I have
enough perspective to realize that immigration policy is ultimately beholden
to the local population. That is what democracy entails. Nobody owes anybody
anything in life, complaining as if you are owed something reeks of privilege
and a sense of entitlement.

~~~
screye
> He assumes he's owed an easy and straightforward journey to citizenship,
> that his future as a foreign-student shouldn't be jeopardized in the least
> by the political whims of the local population, as if the ravaged parts of
> THIS nation which screamed out and democratically elected a protectionist
> president do not deserve to be heard at the international's community's
> expense.

I don't think that's it. What the person seems to begrudge is them breaking
the implicit deal. No one will ever willingly pay $200k to a university if
vastly improved career prospects were not promised at the end of it.

Countries are expected to have a cohesive foreign policy across Govts. When
the world most 'credible' country starts changing policies based on which side
of the bed the president woke up on, it can get quite irritating for those
stuck in the midst.

> I wouldn't chose another place as my home--and apparently neither would Mr.
> Duruk

Being better than a rapidly Islamizing Turkey under dictatorial rule isn't a
huge positive.

Also, it might be a coincidence, but it can rub people the wrong way that
immigration is significantly easier for predominantly white Europeans (no visa
needed to visit in practice (for audition, interview) and no waiting periods
for immigration) as compared to people from Islamic countries (single entry
visas) or Asia (infinite waiting periods).

> I have enough perspective to realize that immigration policy is ultimately
> beholden to the local population.

Agreed, as long as the country doesn't pull a, "I've altered the deal, pray I
don't alter it further".

I have always maintained a "reject them at the gate" policy. Don't welcome
them with open arms, and then leave them to drown in the deep end.

~~~
kofejnik
F1 visa is non-immigrant; you are supposed to go back to your country after
you're done with your studies or if you drop out. So the author was never
promised a path to immigration, in fact, he actually promised to leave the US
unless granted a change of status (which is a privilege and cannot be
automatically expected, of course)

------
dmode
This ruling on international student is just plain cruel. I know how much hard
work I had to put in to secure an F1 visa, and then had to invest in lease,
buying a car etc. with very meager means. To come in the middle of that and
tell everyone pack up and leave is just straight up evil. The next strategy
will be deny visas for anyone re-applying for F-1, drastically reducing
student numbers

~~~
koheripbal
Will it really reduce student numbers? There are usually more than enough
Americans on the wait list for US schools.

~~~
adchari
US schools can't exactly support all those American students without income,
and international students are that source of income.

My university (UIUC) heavily relies on international student tuition to
provide facilities, pay teachers, and give financial support to students who
need it, despite the fact that it's a public university; they simply don't get
enough funding from the state.

------
softwaredoug
Soft power was always crucial to US success. US as a cultural juggernaut in
the 20th century was a key reason the US won the Cold War - not hard power.
Projecting “liberal values” out to the world was part of it.

Since the Iraq war, the emperor has increasingly had no clothes. Instead of
moral progress to realize those ideal, things have increasingly devolved and
the bottom keeps dropping out...

I have optimism that even now the majority of Americans hold to some ideals to
aspire to, and that eventually given a generation, things can change. But I
won’t hold my breath!

~~~
refurb
_not hard power_

What? There was a massive military build up in the US during the 90’s
including things like SDI.

~~~
hedora
The cold war ended in the 80’s.

~~~
Gibbon1
Yeah after 1980 or so the 'cold war' was just about siphoning taxpayer money
to the military industrial complex.

~~~
refurb
I'd _love_ to hear how you arrived at that conclusion (that somehow military
spending before 1980 wasn't the same as post-1980).

~~~
Gibbon1
Easy because I grew up in the Valley during the 1960's and 70's. If you
believed the muttering of military and aerospace engineers and the occasional
ex-soviet engineer, or the girl material science engineer I knew that spent a
year studying in the Soviet Union. Well you knew the war was over and the
Soviets lost. Or you could believe the usual propaganda.

I am amazed how many people still choose to believe the propaganda.

~~~
refurb
Certainly no lack of strong opinions from engineers.

~~~
Gibbon1
Go look at the MiG-25 which the US got their hands on in 1977 and then come
back and say the Soviets hadn't lost the cold war.

------
dzonga
as, a former international student in the us. I wouldn't recommend, anyone
coming here to be an undergrad f1 student. PHD yes, everything else no. You
can go to various countries and be better. though other countries might be
expensive. I went to a state school, which by large was affordable. and just
come to the us for things like Spring break or vacation i.e experience
american life.

~~~
duxup
For many folks IN the US...that can be good advice as far choosing expensive
undergrad schools, vs community college or more affordable options.

Interestingly enough I've seen a surprising number of international students
going to more obscure and affordable US colleges than in the past.

------
d_silin
So glad I finished my studies before the pandemic... But, yes, universities do
treat international students as if they are made of money.

------
mxcrossr
I guess I just don't believe the notion that ICE made this decision to try and
force universities to reopen. It just makes so little sense. I understand that
this administration's is interested in returning to normalcy, but surely
university's aren't high on their priority list?

Meanwhile, we have now four years of evidence that at every moment where they
can reduce the number of illegal immigrants to the US, they make that
decision. Whether it's banning people based on their religion or kicking out
people who have been legally living here for decades as refugees. It just
makes far more sense that the administration's real goal here is to reduce the
number of foreign students, not to force universities to reopen. The director
of homeland security just doesn't want to admit it.

~~~
mavelikara
> Meanwhile, we have now four years of evidence that at every moment where
> they can reduce the number of illegal immigrants to the US, they make that
> decision.

Did you mean "legal immigrants"?

~~~
mxcrossr
That was a typo, thanks for the catch!

------
MattGaiser
Seems like schools could just create:

“International Students 223: In Person Cultural Learning.”

And make all assessment digital. In practice it is an in person lab, but one
nobody must show up for.

~~~
asciident
While I wholeheartedly agree with the intent behind this sort of protest, this
moves universities into a more illegitimate category and jeopardizes their
students' lives. It gives fuel to people who call universities as scams, and
gives ICE an excuse to go after students and faculty for abetting this scheme.
While this is fun to fantasize about on Twitter for Likes, universities are
part of the countries' major institutions and are under major scrutiny so must
follow the law to the letter.

~~~
jrumbut
Universities could pander and make the class on the US Constitution (a
relatively short document) where the in-person component is an easy oral exam,
given to each student individually so they do not have to gather in a
classroom.

Other options which may be a good idea to do anyway is a public speaking class
or a discussion class (almost exclusively on zoom) where students are asked to
reflect on their goals and future plans.

~~~
asciident
They already have classes like that. The only difference is they're at their
standard level of rigor. So you're just proposing increasing enrollment and
dropping standards.

------
vmception
Thanks for writing that.

> all I can feel sometimes is that I’ve bet on the wrong horse

This is a very American experience, where there is no safety net for being
wrong if you run out of money on the bet, but we do have convenient bankruptcy
laws when you run out of other people's money on top of that.

> The whole point of moving to the developed world is to not have to deal with
> developing world problems

The only unique thing about America is having the resources to do better, it
just doesn't. so I am pretty thrilled that people are being forced to
reconcile the difference between Hollywood propaganda and real life.

Most other major economic unions were forced to become more inclusive and
empathic, by invasion and reeducation. The US has never been forced to
reconcile any part of its culture, it is populated by people with incompatible
extremes of ideologies wherever they came from, and it promotes those extremes
for temporary unilateral control of US resources.

Your writing was very insightful, I hope this helps you patch your
understanding of what America is and gives you a more objective way to use it
as a tool.

------
nitwit005
Feels like a fairly quick chat with an American could have dispelled some of
the overly-positive ideas about the US they claim to have had.

~~~
refurb
Certain Americans.

------
ulfw
The US is not a dependable partner anymore. Not on the international political
stage nor on the personal stage.

~~~
RcouF1uZ4gsC
Is there a country that is a more dependable country and that has the means to
project power and influence around the world?

China? If we are worried about the US becoming "America first", I think China
is even more nationalistic than the US and looks through a prism of does this
benefit China.

India? Has no interest in foreign adventures. Especially under Modi, has
become more nationalistic

Russia? See Ukraine.

Japan? Prevented by its constitution from foreign adventures

UK? Brexit

France? Actually, partially exited NATO decades ago. Very nationalistic.

Germany? Doesn't have much ability to project power. Depends on Russia for
vital natural gas.

~~~
eru
> Is there a country that is a more dependable country and that has the means
> to project power and influence around the world?

What's the purpose of the question? If you are looking for a place to work,
live or do business with, the dependability is important, but I couldn't care
less about whether eg Switzerland projects any power when making any personal
or business decisions.

(Now, if I was the head of a country and looking for allies, that would be
different. But I doubt many people are in that position.)

~~~
RcouF1uZ4gsC
The grand parent post also mentioned "the international political stage"

------
unishark
> International students, however, by and large, pay the full ride in most
> schools in undergrad and in master’s programs. Very few schools offer any
> scholarship to international students, and of those that do, the terms are
> often not as comparable.

In my experience this is almost completely false. They do have to pay out-of-
state tuition to public schools, and they generally aren't eligible for
taxpayer-funded need-based aid. But we don't blink at giving scholarships to
international applicants just as often as domestic. Often international
students dominate the applications to master's programs, and get all the
scholarships too.

~~~
toby
I was an international student (undergrad) and your impression is... well, it
differs from mine.

No need-blind admission (except at the school I went to, the others literally
told me I was too poor) and no government funded student loans (my private
loans, which were still non-recourse, started accruing 12% interest the day I
took them out)

Graduate school is slightly different in that you're often working for the
school to cover the tuition, and who is eligible will be based on the donors
and the program administrators.

~~~
unishark
I have been on the admissions committee at a university and literally chose
students to award scholarships to.

You can be too poor to be eligible for a visa (which goes for any country I'm
aware of), there is a govt requirement to be able to support yourself.
Otherwise I find it odd that schools would tell you anything about why you
weren't accepted.

As for "no government funded student loans", I said there were no taxpayer-
funded student need-based aid.

Graduate school includes Master's programs which the blog post was also
talking about, and which only rarely come with teaching or research
assistantships (those are primarily for supporting phd students). But
international students are just as eligible for those as anyone else. It's
much more common for MS students to get a scholarship than an assistantship.

For phd students, the primary sources of funding is overwhelmingly research
grants the faculty member themselves get from the NSF and NIH. These grants
almost never require the supported students to have permanent residency. Many
programs (e.g. phd in electrical and mechanical engineering and many schools)
would cease to exist if that were a requirement.

~~~
FabHK
So, in your estimation, do you think that

1) international students are a major source of revenue for many US colleges
and, more strongly,

2) they bring in a higher share of the revenue than what their share of
students is?

~~~
unishark
Is this curiosity, or a moving goalpost as part of an argument?

Seems to me that completely depends on the school. Maybe international
students will only come to a particular school if they get a free ride, while
local domestic students will pay the tuition for the convenience of being near
home.

At tuition-driven schools (i.e. most schools, but not the big ranked research
schools we always hear about), most students are there as sources of revenue,
except for the stars they can entice with full scholarships.

At research schools, research grants are the main source of revenue. The rest
is a sideshow.

Also in either type of school, if they live off campus (far more common for MS
and phd students than undergrad) then they are less revenue per student.
Schools are essentially in the hotel business too. We are learning all about
this lately.

~~~
FabHK
> Is this curiosity, or a moving goalpost as part of an argument?

The reason I ask is because there seems to be a side argument on who is paying
more, domestic or international students. I would’ve thought foreigners pay
more (that seems to be the case in the UK), but would defer to your first hand
expertise.

However, what the article is predicated on is just that international students
bring in “enough” revenue that they can be used as leverage against the
universities. I was wondering whether you’d concede that.

------
balozi
This too shall pass. Ask the people that had the misfortune of being in
foreign student status on the morning of September 11th, 2001.

------
kyawzazaw
as an intl student, most of what is written is so true.

------
pedroma
They lose their immigration status? I thought they can return once their
schools reopen?

~~~
electricviolet
They lose their status when the school goes online, since they are not
currently enrolled in in-person classes. They will probably have to apply to
reinstate their status in order to return.

Even if those applications are likely to be accepted, dealing with immigration
bureaucracy is an absolute nightmare and anyone who is even slightly an edge
case is gonna go through hell.

~~~
ta1234567890
In addition to the big risk, hassle and cost of flying back to your home
country and having to find housing for an uncertain amount of time, all amid a
global pandemic.

~~~
bruceb
Housing in many places is going to be a lot cheaper than the US.

------
sneak
> _Most fundamentally, I’ve always thought that the United States had a more
> profound respect for human dignity._

It is always surprising to me that the US has been able to mostly maintain
this image all while operating a global network of torture prisons and, now,
domestic concentration camps for both adults and children, and while
imprisoning 20x+ of its ethnic minorities, per capita, compared to China
(which has, by various accounts, 1M+ in labor camps).

Do people not generally know what conditions inside US prisons are like? Are
the torture facilities not common knowledge?

How is this level of spin even possible?

~~~
gruez
>and while imprisoning 20x+ of its ethnic minorities, per capita, compared to
China (which has, by various accounts, 1M+ in labor camps).

Ignoring the "and you are lynching Negroes"[1] argument you're trying to make,
your argument doesn't make sense on a logical level. How can you compare a
relative figure ("20x+") with an absolute one ("1M+")? At least compare apples
to apples.

[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/And_you_are_lynching_Negroes](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/And_you_are_lynching_Negroes)

~~~
sneak
It turns out that lynching black people in the United States was (and
unfortunately remains) a very legitimate problem/criticism. The legalized
system of prison slavery is another.

But, even those aside: Global network of CIA torture prisons. Concentration
camps in Texas. Universal surveillance of all communications without judicial
oversight. Extrajudicial assassination of citizens.

These are real things, happening today. Do people just ignore them because
they don’t fit the “land of the free” narrative?

~~~
bruceb
"It turns out that lynching black people in the United States was (and
unfortunately remains) a very legitimate problem/criticism."

Not even close to being true.

------
chvid
Seems to me that the international student business is about selling a path to
American citizenship.

How expensive can it get before the millions of students stop coming? How bad
can the education be? How bad can the politics be?

I think the answer is a lot worse. USA is still attractive to billions of
people on the planet.

~~~
jkaplowitz
Oh we sell a path to American citizenship, but it's not the international
students. It's the EB-5 visa:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EB-5_visa](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EB-5_visa)
The purchase price of US permanent residence is as little as $900k, and until
last November 21 it was as low as $500k.

Sure, the international students often don't pay that much, but in many cases
they don't end up with good access to permanent residence either, let alone
citizenship.

------
lxe
I have a feeling schools will figure out a straightforward loophole out of
this. I'm also thinking that the USCIS/DHS might not have the
ability/will/power to fully enforce something like this.

------
greendave
> The whole point of moving to the developed world is to not have to deal with
> developing world problems.

Tell that to the people living in Appalachia or on skid row in LA.

Like most third-world countries, the US is a fine place to live, if you have
money and/or access to power. But if you're not in that category, don't expect
anything from public institutions.

~~~
blhack
I’m curious what part of the country you actually live in. As somebody who
just got back from a couple of weeks in boring, rural, flyover country: it’s
no surprise that the people who live there are so intensely patriotic.

~~~
mrguyorama
So I'm literally "stuck" in rural Maine for this entire month. The landscape
might be pretty sometimes, but there is absolutely nothing of value here.
There are no jobs, no industry, no creativity, nothing being made or done or
thought of here. The only people still left are the ones who couldn't run
away. It actively feels like the town is dying, and it's not due to COVID as
most people here think it's a hoax. What could these people possibly have to
be patriotic of?

This is my home town. My mother still lives here. I cannot fathom how. The
grocery stores look so run down the the Walmart one town over has entire
chunks of the store just flat and open and missing. I tried to purchase a
basketball the other day and there was not a single one to be found in any of
the three low quality dollar stores or anywhere else. I tried to get something
mailed to me and instead of prompt delivery it disappeared into a USPS
facility for five days.

The town _feels_ sick and dying

------
techreviewon
What will this do to American competitiveness in the global race for talent?
Most developed countries are doing a lot to attract and retain them.

Talented people have good memories. They will remember this and tell their
friends and people who go to them for advice for years to come.

“Trump’s freeze on new visas could threaten US dominance in AI

The president’s executive order to temporarily suspend H-1B visas exacerbates
the US’s precarious position in the global competition for AI talent.“

[https://www.technologyreview.com/2020/06/26/1004520/trump-
ex...](https://www.technologyreview.com/2020/06/26/1004520/trump-executive-
order-h1b-visa-threatens-us-ai/)

~~~
mattxxx
Maybe it will incentivize universities to grow talent locally

------
howdyhere123
This whole piece reads wrong for me.

The United States has been disenfranchising its own citizens for decades
particulary economically.

Students from around the world should be allowed to stay but this world view
is so foreign, pun not intended, from my perspective as a mixed man from a
broken background.

------
ponker
Hoping that some colleges pull a fast one, like having one in-person lecture a
week that are widely known to be shams and not for actual attendance, perhaps
a lecture about a Simpsons episode, to maintain the “in-person” eligibility
while having nobody attend, and then litigate the issue in court when the
government tries to call them on it.

------
ColeyG
Shouldn't International Students have to "pay a full ride"? I mean most of the
stipulations with grants are intended to keep the knowledge and donations
within the community. That seems entitled and very "woe is me" to me.

~~~
paulgb
The article isn't arguing against paying a full ride, it's saying they
shouldn't be treated like political pawns after they do so.

For context, the current administration is using international student visas
as leverage to get universities open for in-person classes this year.

~~~
ColeyG
Yeah, I agree with that. I guess I just mean I think it distracts a little bit
and makes the point weaker overall. No one should be treated like that though,
and I wholly believe that there is suffering associated with that

------
ggm
Australia: we want more international students. you are worth $16b+ to us
annually. (some estimates go to $30b of on-value)

Also Australia: Oh, covid: no money for you, indigent peons!

Basically, if you cannot afford to eat, as a displaced international student
its begging, or starving. No help.

Truly amazing lack of insight into future study outcomes here.

We used to have a strategy called "the colombo plan" which was free tertiary
education on a requirement to _go back home_ and this built links into
emerging economies which liked us.

Now, our strategy is to milk international students dry, keep the ones who can
survive exclusionist immigration policy, and screw everyone over if the risk-
side tanks. Great plan!

~~~
FridgeSeal
> Now, our strategy is to milk international students dry, keep the ones who
> can survive exclusionist immigration policy, and screw everyone over if the
> risk-side tanks. Great plan!

Whilst at the same time ignoring local students almost completely.

It's a loss-loss!

~~~
ggm
ten points to gryffendor!

------
neokrish
I’ll be the devil’s advocate here. US as a country of choice for education,
work and life is unbeatable. The author himself is looking forward to getting
the citizenship soon. US also has a lot of structural issues, as any country
and any structure of government does. US educational institutions and the
teaching will still hold appeal and after Covid settles down, it’ll still
continue to attract international students. While international students pay
full price, international students also receive scholarships and the student
loan crisis of (mostly) American students shows that American students are not
as subsidized as the author claims. Economy is interlinked - international
students end up in tech sector jobs, earn exorbitant sums (PM in a FANG
company is earning $400K while average American wage is closer to $50K),
possibly joining social media businesses (morally challenged business models)
and further straining the social fabric in the US. This is my conjecture,
based on my experience. I’m an international student and studied in a premier
US university and have all my friends working mostly in SF and NYC. Of late,
I’m starting to judge things on the basis of what heals US and avoid picking
things in isolation. In summary, I see that the immigration rules have been
harshly implemented, but again, it’s covid and I’m not sure what a measured
response is anymore. US is well within its right to control immigration as it
feels like, internationals like US because there is something about US that’s
hard to unpack, but as a whole, something to cherish and love. In my opinion,
the author is fair to call out the immigration rule implementation, everything
else feels like a rant and I have a hard time buying into the criticism.

