
In Praise of Samuel R. Delany - Hooke
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/08/08/books/samuel-delany-jordy-rosenberg.html
======
mr_overalls
I've long had a love-hate relationship with Delany's writing. He has perhaps
the greatest amount of sheer verbal talent of any writer I'm acquainted with.
Simply calling his work "lyrical" doesn't do it justice. He's a true poet who
writes long fiction.

And he's used speculative fiction to brilliantly explore various social topics
- including homosexuality - during a time when such explorations were
unwelcome.

But to his detriment, he seem to be quite a. . . well, a pervert, in the most
classical sense. I actually think that Delany delights in shocking his readers
with detailed depictions of disgusting acts.

Reading his novel Hogg quickly becomes a kind of self-inflicted endurance
test. It's just a non-stop description of graphic descriptions of murder,
child molestation, incest, coprophilia, coprophagia, urolagnia, anal-oral
contact, necrophilia, and rape. It's not that there's any one scene or act
that's mind-blowingly horrible. It's more just the staggering quantity, and
the unrelenting pace. There is literally not a single page in the book that
does not describe some sexual or violent act. I found myself exhausted after
each sitting, and extremely relieved when I finally reached the end of the
book.

Through the Valley of the Nest of Spiders, his most recent major novel, is
more of the same. (With the addition, I suppose, of sexualized booger-eating.)

The Tides of Lust is a study in pedophilia and sadomasochism.

A recent long essay of his in a major online publication (I can't seem to find
it now) has Delany intimately describing his attendance at geriatric sex
parties in random hotels. He lingers on the scene where he kisses a toothless
man, describes the taste of his semen. etc. It's not educational or poetic.
Again and again his desire seems to be to shock the reader.

And he has a record of defending NAMBLA.

He's a genius, no doubt - but my totally non-professional opinion is that he
has something like histrionic personality disorder. And I certainly wouldn't
trust my kids around him.

~~~
kabdib
I've re-re-re-read most of his earlier works ( _Nova_ , _Dhalgren_ ,
_Driftglass_ and so on). I would recommend them to anyone, though _Dhalgren_
and _Triton_ are probably inappropriate and maybe incomprehensible for younger
readers.

I got maybe 50pp into _Nest of Spiders_ and was done. Every few months I try
to read a few more pages, and always put the book down again.

However, I think that Delaney did not fail this reader. If anything, what he
wrote in _Spiders_ made me realize that I wasn't as open-minded as I thought I
was. I don't care to expand those particular limits, the subject matter is
definitely not my cup of tea. But I'm happy we live in a society where he can
publish that work, and I'm happy to at least _try_ to read it, and happy to do
my bit to support him doing it.

~~~
mr_overalls
> made me realize that I wasn't as open-minded as I thought I was.

I really don't understand this use of the phrase "open-minded". Open-
mindedness, to me, means being willing to question deeply-held opinions and
beliefs. And being okay with other humans freely making very different
decisions with regards to religion, sexuality, occupation, etc.

None of that has the slightest thing to do with trying to quell instinctive
reactions of disgust to pedophilia and booger-eating.

~~~
pessimizer
People often have a stronger reaction to your religion than your booger-
eating; I don't actually understand the distinction you're making here. It
reads like being "open-minded" for you is to be tolerant of the things that
you're currently tolerant of, but has nothing to do with the things that you
are not currently tolerant of, reactions to which you deem "instinctive."

I don't believe that disgust with either of those things are instincts, they
seem like examples of things that are learned and vary by culture. Instincts
are more like being startled by loud noises, or things unexpectedly touching
your head.

~~~
mr_overalls
There's actually a good amount of evidence that the emotion of disgust - and
even the associated facial expressions - are universal among human cultures.
See research by Plutchik, Rozin, and Ekman.

It's elicited typically by potential biological contaminants, like bodily
fluids, spoiled foods, vermin, bodily violations (blood, gore, etc.), and
infection.

------
ilamont
I started with Delany's _Nova_ when I was about 12 or 13. What an incredible
story! For something published in 1966, it really pushed the boundaries of
science fiction not just in terms of topics (race, drugs, society, etc.) but
also in terms of bringing literary sensibilities to a genre that many people
regarded as imaginative yet immature trash.

Delany was not the only science fiction author doing this during the 60s and
70s, but _Nova_ was so magical and effective. It even stands up today -- I
reread it every few years, and it doesn't seem dated (although that comment
maybe dates me!)

I have to say, however, that his big novels of the 1970s -- _Dhalgren_ and
_Triton_ \-- were hard reads. As TFA notes, he kept pushing the boundaries of
science fiction, but the boundaries went too far "out there" for me to
appreciate. They were long and abstract, and it made me feel bad that I was
too obtuse to really get into them.

~~~
ralphc
Remembered from the time, found at [https://www.tor.com/2011/07/06/heinleins-
worst-novel/](https://www.tor.com/2011/07/06/heinleins-worst-novel/)

"That said, was it Analog or F&SF where a winning entry in a contest for SF-
related jokes was:

Q: What do the speed of light, absolute zero, and page 60 of Dhalgren have in
common? A: No one will ever get past them."

~~~
ilamont
That's a great post and a great thread. It's entertaining to read the
discussion of Heinlein, as I came of age in a very cloistered sci-fi literary
environment and as a teen in the 1980s didn't know _anyone_ who appreciated
science fiction literature and could discuss and compare classic authors like
the people in that thread.

Once I plugged into the Internet in the 90s, I subscribed to a Gene Wolfe
usenet group but otherwise didn't seek out my "tribe." From time to time I get
to catch up on these debates when someone mentions/links to them on HN, so
thank you!

------
jhallenworld
Always fun to look at the tvtropes list for authors, here is his:

[https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Creator/SamuelRDelany](https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Creator/SamuelRDelany)

You need to click on each novel to see them all..

------
just_steve_h
"Dhalgren" and "Stars in My Pockdt Like Grains of Sand" are two of the most
revelatory, liberating novels I've ever had the pleasure to encounter.

Neither is easy. Both reward re-reading.

The man is a treasure!

~~~
greatquux
I'm actually reading Stars in My Pocket right now and really enjoying it. And
I loved all his early works and Triton was great too. But I can totally relate
to someone not wanting to read straight up pornography which is what he
described Hogg as being (and I'm sure he's right). All novelists need an
editor, or someone to tell them when they're being so self-indulgent that the
only person that writing will appeal to is themselves (which is fine, I just
don't have to read it).

Dhalgren was really great and a true post-modern classic. When I'm done
reading some more classic fantasy I'll give Neveryon #1 a try.

~~~
uncletaco
I see Hogg as less of a novel meant for the general public and more of an
academic exercise.

Delaney's shtick was showing that pulp and smut weren't low art, often taking
those genres to their academic or weird ends.

For instance in the second Neveryon story (first book) he just up and creates
a page long info dump about a character we never see again -- seemingly just
to flex. I loved it and I love his writing.

At the same time he is very much a pervert who makes it known he absolutely
loved being a Times Square twink through various interviews and talks. It's
weird, and he's a weird dude. But I adore his work.

Also I feel like if any science fiction author was gonna have their sins
brought to light during the me too stuff it would have been him, but
thankfully there hasn't been signs of him being a predator. I hope that
remains case

------
nooron
I moved to the Bay in the summer of 2013 to work for a YC company. I read
Dhalgren every night then. The way he weaves technology into the story is so
different from other science fiction: incredibly light on exposition and
origin, heavy emphasis on its performance. It is jarring at first but becomes
very beautiful. I won't be the first or the last to say Dhalgren is uneven,
but it's worth trying to finish a few times.

------
moab
Delany's writing raises the perennial question of whether we can separate the
art from the artist (the view in the current climate seems to be an emphatic
"no", see for example the recent Times article about Nolde's paintings being
removed from Merkel's office [1]). For the obvious comparison of Nabokov, I'm
inclined to view Lolita separately from the author and his personal beliefs.
If Nabokov held views similar to Humbert, he kept those thoughts to himself,
and I don't think anyone reading Lolita can charge Nabokov of advocating those
ideas, although it seems really popular to do so in literary circles today.

I am not sure the same case about "a lack of advocacy" can be made for Delany
or his oeuvre.

[1] [https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/10/arts/nolde-nazi-
exhibitio...](https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/10/arts/nolde-nazi-exhibition-
berlin-merkel.html)

