
Confessions of a lotus-eater - tomjcleveland
https://tjcx.me/posts/confessions-lotus-eater/
======
sbilstein
Quit your job and start something and holy shit you will come to realize the
lotus is even more extreme than you thought. The worst is finding out how
many, or probably most, raise their pre-seed entirely on connections, the ones
you don't end up building at the companies you work for. So you end up an
actually broke start up founder, realize the meritocracy is only for the poor
souls who have to succeed based on their own merits, and that you might not
stand a chance braving the startup seas. Talking to your friends who are
employees will dial up the dissonance to 11...the myths they believe about
founding startups and fundraising, what they've 'learned' from podcasts and
blog posts about startups; anything less than over the top enthusiasm for the
risk you take will shock you to your core. It's fucking hard.

The weird thing for me is how trapped I felt by my vest dates before leaving
the comfort of a well-funded business. I could afford vacations and clothes I
wanted, if I waited long enough and kept getting promoted I could eventually
buy an overpriced but lovely home in the Bay Area somewhere but I'd never have
enough money to really live free.

Do I regret leaving to start a company and ultimately fail? No. I used to be
poor and I got used to being poor again. Leaving the island was awful however:
paying for food and healthcare again, an inability to enjoy the myriad
distractions of the bay. I might never be able to afford a home of my own but
I'm lucky that my wife is an artist and is happy to entertain the struggle as
well. I'm actually on company number two but this time with some funding.

It's a hero's journey, like the odyssey or wandering the desert. I somehow
have found peace with all this; the debt, the fear, the stress. The journey
itself is the reward even if it is a bitter one.

What I'm saying is, if you get the sense you don't want to be a lotus eater in
Silicon Valley, say fuck it and pull the plug. You'll grow some scars, it will
_absolutely_ suck (even my peers who did YC feel this way), but you'll feel
some kind of cosmic satisfaction with your path like Odysseus.

And if you don't gain that peace, you can always get another job :)

------
lnanek2
It's kind of strange that he takes pride in avoiding free company meals
calling them lotus eating. If you were really a practical person wouldn't you
just eat the free meal and go back to work? Instead he avoids the free meal
and would have to do some other option like making and packing lunch in the
morning which takes time, going hungry until he gets home and possibly being
hangry toward a coworker, or going outside the building to eat which takes
longer and costs more. Instead he turns up his nose to free food so he can
brag? How is that helping anyone...

~~~
kryogen1c
> Instead he turns up his nose to free food

What is the purpose of this free food?

It cannot be to feed their starving employees. If that was the case they would
just stop catering and pay their employees more. They're certainly not feeding
homeless people in their office.

This food is not a necessity, most certainly not the snacks. These are
creature comforts, pieces of corporate flair for recruiters to lure recruits.
They're lotuses, to help you feel more comfortable in a place that is not
innately comfortable.

Starting your own company is hard and you need industry experience first.
Here, the work-life balance is good, the pay is good, the culture is good.
What more could you ask for? Plus, have you tried the queijo?

~~~
triangleman
The company meals are productivity enhancing:

\- employees stay on site and so they take shorter lunch breaks

\- they are likely to eat with other employees and talk shop

\- it does help recruit and keep good employees. If the firm you are thinking
of moving to doesn't provide lunch, that's one more friction point: new
commute, possibly new schedule, now you have to figure out what you will do
for lunch after you have grown accustomed to such an easy solution.

Note how that last point seems to resonate closely with the author's point
since his Ithaca is apparently about leaving your job and starting a
startup... or something? It's not clear what his Ithaca is.

His skipping lunch is an exercise in asceticism that I think he is hoping will
serve some higher purpose later. But at the end of the day I think he's just
not satisfied where he is and would rather work somewhere else. Other than
"moving to San Francisco" he doesn't mention any job changes. So I think
that's his problem. And if you're not happy somewhere, free lunch is not going
to stop you from leaving.

------
riskneutral
Here’s the thing. You can spend your whole life searching the world for Ithaca
and you will never find it, you will always have the feeling that something is
missing, that you have not yet reached your true destination. All the while,
the true Ithaca always was and is within you. When and if a person finally
stopped running around and sits down quietly then this Ithaca becomes clear
and the lotus eating can be paused or stopped.

~~~
rekabis
> the true Ithaca always was and is within you.

This is what so many people miss. You need to be _internally motivated_ to
reach your Ithaca. Being externally motivated will make you forever
unrequited, forever wondering if what you have reached truly is Ithaca.

~~~
baruchel
Do you actually need to reach any Ithaca?

See:
[https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems/51296/ithaka-56d22eef...](https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems/51296/ithaka-56d22eef917ec)

"Ithaka gave you the marvelous journey. Without her you wouldn't have set out.
She has nothing left to give you now.

And if you find her poor, Ithaka won’t have fooled you. Wise as you will have
become, so full of experience, you’ll have understood by then what these
Ithakas mean."

By C. P. Cavafy

------
majos
I’m surprised so many people are taking this at face value. It’s satire,
right? This bit leans into it hard:

> If it was raining, obviously, I couldn’t reasonably be expected to ride my
> bike. Or in the winter months when it’s a bit dark in the mornings, or when
> it got too cold, or when I was just a bit too tired. Let’s be reasonable
> here.

I guess it’s satirizing people who carve out tiny pockets of differentiation
from others then mentally inflate it into some kind of deep uniqueness.

~~~
tomatotomato37
To be fair we are reaching a point where the lines between satire and reality
are starting to blur a bit. I hope this is satire, but I'm not 100% sure.

~~~
MadWombat
Poe's Law as applied to silicon valley hipsters?

------
ropiwqefjnpoa
It's a truly interesting quirk of humanity how so many of us (maybe all of us)
go through the, "I'm not like the others, I'm different" experience. Maybe
that's a lotus he was eating all along.

~~~
ericmcer
Well it is pretty common for Millenials as we were literally raised on the
"everyone is special, do your passion for work, never work a day in your life,
blah de blah" message.

The reality is some people actually are just special. I watched an interview
with David Foster Wallace and two other authors recently and it was blatantly
obvious within a few minutes that he was just better than them. All three were
professional published authors but it was clear who was gifted and who wasn't.
I don't know if that means the other two were wasting their time, but it is
definitely discouraging to watch as a fairly average person.

~~~
majos
Can you link to the interview?

~~~
etblg
I'm not sure if this is the same one he was watching, but I was watching it
last night and it sounds very very similar

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J3qjCvkQWvs](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J3qjCvkQWvs)

------
kryogen1c
I am stunned - astounded - at the overwhelming negative response to this
article. Touched a nerve, did it? The lady doth protest too much, methinks.

Are you really (already) at the termination point you dreamed of growing up?
Have some coworkers, have some family, die?

I, for one, found this deeply profound. Today I wake from my dream, get back
on my ship, and start rowing.

Go then, there are other worlds than these.

~~~
eckza
> The lady doth protest too much, methinks.

[https://literarydevices.net/lady-doth-protest-too-
much/](https://literarydevices.net/lady-doth-protest-too-much/)

Learn how to use the phrase before you use the phrase.

For my part, a lifetime of contemptuous outrage at being part of a privileged
class sounds exhausting, unfulfilling, and miserable.

Yeah, it touched a goddamn nerve. Listening to entitled people complain about
how easy they have it, and then subsequently making a pithy attempt at virtue-
signaling by trying to put themselves on a pedestal for surface-level attempts
at austerity - and then projecting those values onto others as if they're
flaws of character - has a habit of doing that.

------
sseth
Somerset Maugham wrote a great short story - "The Lotus Eater" about a bank
manager who earned a lot of money, then retired to an island of Capri to live
comfortably off his savings - become a "lotus-eater". The kicker is when after
25 years his money runs out, and his life of comfort has deprived him of the
will to work again.

Perhaps here the author is talking of a different type of "lotus-eater" \- one
who has become comfortable not taking risks, and live in the comfort of their
company perks and just coast along without striving hard. Their day of
reckoning may come if they get fired and suddenly find they have lost the
knack of living in a world without these perks and strewn with risks.

I think this should be read as a person's own story of what compels them to
live as they do, and not as a judgement on other people who choose to make
different life choices.

------
a0zU
Can you really work a 9-5 and still claim that you aren't a lotus eater? Lotus
eating isn't endulging in company meals or taking their Ubers, lotus eating is
being lured into a sense of security and letting yourself be surrounded by
walls of safety to strong for you to break.

~~~
munk-a
I think this is a pretty twisted definition of lotus-eating - in the Odyssey
lotus-eating isn't never equated to toiling endlessly on the open sea reaching
for a thing that might not be attainable, it's giving up a will to move, eat
and simply bask in idle hedonistic pleasure.

So the modern day lotus eater isn't a 9-5 worker, those are the folks on the
ships struggling to help fulfill this one dude's hope while being beaten,
tempted and killed - and being entirely ignored in the epilogue as if they
never even existed... The modern lotus eater is those that sink into
depression and drug abuse, able to survive in society but just eeking by while
trying to escape reality - And it is certainly good to avoid falling into it.

~~~
elil17
It seems like neither the rower nor the lotus eater have a good life

------
warbucks
This is so naive I suspected it was intended as satire a couple of times while
reading it.

~~~
jbigelow76
That's the vibe I get too since the author is also the submitter of the
article but isn't engaging in the comments that I see.

And being able to mooch off your friends' apartment and crash on their couch
so you don't need to worry about finding a place to live seems pretty lotusee-
eater to me, but what do I know.

------
echlebek
Sounds like the author has a bad case of puritanism. Enjoying life isn't the
same thing as sitting around shooting smack all day.

~~~
carapace
Yeah, I never say this, but I think this fellow should smoke a joint.

Experience with a real lotus might, I think, engender a useful readjustment of
priors, eh?

------
mojoe
This smells like projecting values on others. Just because the author's Ithaca
includes building an independent company doesn't mean that others are lotus
eaters. If the author's co-workers had explicit goals of contributing to a
large company, having a happy, stable family and good work-life balance, etc.
then perhaps they already found their Ithaca.

~~~
smattiso
I agree building a company just for the sake of building a company is as
arbitrary and meaningless of an Ithaca as it is to want to work for say
Google. However contributing in a meaningful way to improving the world is a
noble pursuit and we need more people doing that not less. Whether we are
already at max-capacity of useful contributing people is another question.
Maybe the type of person who can build frontends for Google AdWords doesn't
have the skills necessary to do something better and should be content
providing a service and taking care of their family.

Everybody has to find their own path I guess. Also 99.99% of people don't care
about improving the world and the world gets by just fine on its own. Or does
it (global warming, war, etc.)? Who knows, who cares.

~~~
qub1t
“the type of person who can build frontends for Google AdWords doesn’t have
the skills necessary to do something better and should be content providing a
service and taking care of their family” is one of the most condescending
things I’ve read in a long time. Even for hacker news.

You ever watch that South Park episode where they make fun of Hollywood where
all the actors love the smell of their own farts? These days I feel that this
is a pretty apt of a criticism of SV and Bay Area culture..

~~~
smattiso
How is that condescending? sub "frontend for Google AdWords" with "plumber,
truck driver, etc." Not everybody has the skills, motivation, luck, to be
working on problems that push the human race forward. So what? People should
still be content. I would argue that we programmers are some of the most
delusional about what our jobs really accomplish, and who they really help.
The person making 500k at Twitter thinks they have the skills to make the
world a better place, but do they? Probably not. And who cares?

------
jonnycomputer
The article is essentially the author's reflection on how they difficult it is
to retain their drive in a context where the perks of their success can easily
sap it away. I call that pretty clear eyed. It is much harder to step off that
island than ever to get on to it. On the other hand, the illusions of Ithaca,
can be equally pernicious. You may find, in the end, that no matter what, the
Ithaca you desired is always out of reach, and was never real anyway, and fill
your heart with regret and bitterness.

Big D said it: The dreams of youth are the regrets of maturity. (;

~~~
mikelyons
It's only after you've lost everything that you're free to do anything.

------
grok2
I am not sure why a lot of the comments here are very negative. At least for
me this was a well-written post that was very introspective and made me think
about my own choices and if I was a lotus-eater or a pursuer of Ithaca!

~~~
bpt3
To me, the author of the article has missed that it's not an either-or
scenario with bright lines between the two options.

Eating the free lunch being offered to you doesn't mean you've taken your eye
off of your ultimate goals or mission in life.

~~~
grok2
But I think the point being made is that eating the free-lunch makes you
"weak" (weakens your resolve) on your journey towards your Ithaca --
illustrating exactly the point being made about being a "lotus-eater".

~~~
bpt3
And my point is that doesn't have to be the case. You can eat a free lunch at
your current job without being weakened or distracted in any way.

It's good to keep your end goals in mind and make sure you aren't deviating
from a course that will get you there, but a logical conclusion of taking this
blog post literally (which many people are doing, because there's no obvious
reason not to do so) is that the author is severely misguided at best.

------
seren
For what it's worth, Odysseus is the only one to make it back to Ithaca. All
of his men end up devoured by Polyphemus or other monsters, drowned or worse..

So maybe becoming a lotus-eater would not have been that bad after all.

------
bagacrap
Odysseus sounds like an ego tripping founder who refuses a generous buyout
that would grant his employees comfortable exits after years of loyal service.

------
henvic
I don't know if this is just a satire or just someone who sees themself as a
mastermind just expecting some taps on the back for their supposed
enlightenment. Pure bs.

~~~
bpt3
Reading the other posts on the site, I have to assume it's satire.

------
CoolGuySteve
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reward_system#History](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reward_system#History)

"When rats were tested in Skinner boxes where they could stimulate the reward
system by pressing a lever, the rats pressed for hours."

I guess the author's definition of lotus-eaters is similar to the rat
experiment mentioned above. There is something about the satisficing and
infantilizing nature of tech companies that seems engineered to keep employees
complacent about work that's just okay but maybe not challenging or rewarding.

The story is a good analogy but the tone of the article is weird and
condescending.

~~~
unbalancedevh
> The story is a good analogy but the tone of the article is weird and
> condescending.

In think that's part of the point. And at the end he realizes that maybe he's
not any different than the lotus-eaters; or, that the lotus-eaters are more
like him than he thinks.

------
alpineidyll3
I bet he's really fun at parties. :P
[https://www.mcsweeneys.net/articles/i-bet-youre-really-
fun-a...](https://www.mcsweeneys.net/articles/i-bet-youre-really-fun-at-
parties)

------
corbinq27
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/This_Side_of_Paradise_(Star_Tr...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/This_Side_of_Paradise_\(Star_Trek:_The_Original_Series\)?wprov=sfti1)

------
syrrim
I think the question to be asked is why you wanted to start a company in the
first place. It's obviously not an end unto itself. Maybe you think of it as a
way to get rich. In that case, I think you could justify staying at whichever
company on the grounds that you have the things you want to be rich for, and
therefore don't need to get richer. Also, staying at a company promises much
more secure wealth. Maybe you wanted to start a company as a status thing,
because you thought of it as the thing that cool people did. In that case, it
makes perfect sense that the status boost you feel at your current company
steals from your desire to start a company, since they both achieve the sans
goal. Ditto if your goal was to contribute to the world by making things. I'm
straining to think of decent goals that can only be achieved at your own
company. I think those were the major goals, and staying could be described as
settling for a lesser prize, not changing goals altogether.

------
baybal2
What a weird headline. I think he is thinking harder than he should. He goes
into metaphysical.

My take on it. I'm very happy being able to work for in a level headed
workplace that doesn't resembles a religious cult. And I am very happy to do a
non-joke job, unlike programmers working in cat video site startups with
unlimited funds for buffoonery.

Our work is almost anonymous in the West, and most of our clients prefer it be
that way. We don't mind, and I actually like it this way.

When I finally closed the door on the West, it was a relief. A red pill as
people say nowadays.

The West needs a correction. A culture of unlimited money in Silicon Valley
assures that they will never get an incentive to get serious, until they
really need it, and then they croak.

------
aaron695
As I know it lotus is a real interesting snack but it tastes awful.

You can eat a lot of the parts of the lotus but the pods are a common quick
eat.

It's like a bag of individually wrapped candy. Except when you doubly unwrap
and eat them the fun stops and you realise it's pretty bland.

But it's something to do to pass the time and probably pretty healthy.

I tried to see if any lotus (many breeds out there) is a narcotic but most
people mix it (blue lotus) with opiates and other drugs to actually get high
so it seems like mostly a mythical dream.

------
ahoy
This is totally unhinged.

------
zaro
>I soon discovered that San Francisco is positively packed with lotus-eaters.

Well, of course. You need a crew for the ship to reach Ithaca. And you can't
have a crew of only captains :)

This proposition that somehow everybody can reach Ithaca, is simply a faith
based pyramid scheme. You may end up being the captain or you may end up being
in the crew. If you do the numbers I think it's quite clear which one is more
probable.

------
tines
But couldn't things _always_ be harder? What's the difference between
rejecting a free meal in favor of buying your own, vs. rejecting a meal that
costs you $5 when you could pay $10? Or rejecting a $10 for a $100? Some might
say that any nonzero price is qualitatively different than 0, but that ignores
the fact that other things will not be free.

That way lies madness.

Maybe if your search for Ithaca can be detailed by eating a meal, then you're
looking for the wrong Ithaca.

------
Nekorosu
But you can have a free sweater and create your company too.

------
blitz_skull
He's posted 3 posts. All 3 are gold. Keep them coming!

------
zumu
I actually love this blog layout. Anyone know anything more about it? Or is
this bespoke made by the author.

As for the content, I enjoyed it. It is, however, highly personal and full of
self-satire. I'd urge people to read it less as the author thumbing their nose
at us 9-5ers and more of a conscious examination of a narcissistic view they
hold deep down that they ultimately know at a higher level is absurd.

------
hootguy
Thinking about Maslow’s hierarchy, the auditorium scene sounded like an effort
to impart a religious experience. But “change the world,” at your current
employer or your startup, does not qualify on its own as Meaning. It is just
ambition’s projection of power. One can imagine all sorts of powerful,
malevolent, Meaningless ways to change the world.

------
elil17
Some people here seem to think that running a company is a true Ithaca. It
seems to me like the narrators problem is that he doesn’t really know what his
Ithaca is, and is instead perusing lotus eating (wealth, whether as a worker
or an owner). The narrator’s folly is that he believes that being a owner is
Ithaca.

------
rax0m
If you know you're a lotus eater and you're comfortable with it, that's when
you can live life peacefully.

To keep searching for Ithaca is to put to much emphasis on your professional
life. A great professional life is not a sufficient condition for a happy
life, but an acceptable/ok professional life is a neccessary condition.

------
NPMaxwell
When deciding whether to join a company, it may be a good idea to ask to see a
video of their annual all hands. Was it an event that you would have enjoyed?
Did the people participating appear to have values and attitudes you would
like to work with?

~~~
convolvatron
have you ever even to an all-hands that wasn't largely vacuous cheerleading?
engineering reports great progress. sales reports great traction. admin gives
an update of benefits selection and announces training for the new espresso
machine. hockey sticks are waved around. new disconnected strategies are
unveiled. competitors maligned.

------
otikik
Wow I can't wait to work on this guy's company. He sounds so easy to work
with.

------
badger_bravo
> you haven’t lived until you’ve tried a fresh-baked green tea mochi cupcake,
> or dipped pão de queijo into lima bean dip

Author goes on about how pampering yourself with comfort is imprisonment, but
also says this? cmon.

------
solotronics
Wow, I wish someone would feed me and give me massages at work.

------
femiagbabiaka
fantastic writing. if it makes you feel any better, someone in the thrall of
the lotus is incapable of introspection.

~~~
ggggtez
That sounds like a convenient way to ignore anyone who disagrees with you.

~~~
femiagbabiaka
Hmm. Not quite. Part of introspection is listening, to yourself and to others.

~~~
ggggtez
The author uses "the lotus" to refer to everyone who is working in tech that
isn't running their own start up. By suggestion such people are incapable of
introspection, at best you are using that as shortcut to dismiss anyone who
isn't a founder as just a sheep.

That's not introspective. That's shallow and condescending, like the author is
doing.

~~~
femiagbabiaka
I think you've only taken the first level interpretation of what the author
wrote and let it hit too close to home.

It's absolutely true that large tech companies throw massive amounts of
compensation and perks to lull workers into a sense of security. How do you
think people go into Facebook day after day while new stories about their
abuses come out?

If you're just passively going into work year by year without thinking about
whether or not the thing you're striving for actually fulfills you, you are
absolutely exhibiting sheep-like behavior. For that matter, if you go off and
start a company and throw yourself into it without some introspection, you're
also exhibiting sheep-like behavior. In fact, there are posts about this that
reach the top of HN every once in a while. There was one just the other week.

If you haven't met many people or yourself been someone who has fallen prey to
this in tech, I'd say you're either exceptionally focused/self-aware, or you
might be snacking on some lotus in your spare time. Either way, whether or not
you're a lotus eater, or simply someone who is content with achieving the
goals they've set in front of themselves is something that only you can know.

~~~
ggggtez
You say I'm missing the point, but then you go in to literally just agree with
me that you are calling everyone in tech a sheep and a drug user. That's
intellectually lazy.

~~~
femiagbabiaka
hmm. that's not what I said. this is what I said:

> If you're just passively going into work year by year without thinking about
> whether or not the thing you're striving for actually fulfills you, you are
> absolutely exhibiting sheep-like behavior. For that matter, if you go off
> and start a company and throw yourself into it without some introspection,
> you're also exhibiting sheep-like behavior. In fact, there are posts about
> this that reach the top of HN every once in a while. There was one just the
> other week. If you haven't met many people or yourself been someone who has
> fallen prey to this in tech, I'd say you're either exceptionally
> focused/self-aware, or you might be snacking on some lotus in your spare
> time. Either way, whether or not you're a lotus eater, or simply someone who
> is content with achieving the goals they've set in front of themselves is
> something that only you can know.

the opportunity to be lulled into a false sense of achievement is possible for
anyone. keep your own goals in mind and you'll avoid it! I couldn't possibly
know about the inner lives of every person in tech, I haven't met and had good
conversations with all of them. :)

------
dexan
All these self imposed limitations and difficulties have become the authors
lotus.

But perhaps that is what a lotus eater would say.

------
cyraxjoe
Interesting read (didn't read it like an essay about the complains of the
privileged). It reminded me about a book: One-Dimensional Man (Marcuse), but
adjusted into a more contemporary tech scene. Also, the idea of building a new
company from scratch as the _real_ goal, seems to me like if the objective is
the garden of lotus, not the lotus itself.

------
ridiculous_fish
Stay hungry, stay foolish.

------
LiquidSky
Reminds me of this xkcd comic:

[https://xkcd.com/610/](https://xkcd.com/610/)

------
jorblumesea
This is pretty cringey.

------
mikelyons
Reminds me of "Bread and Circuses"

------
scarejunba
Holy shit, that company all-hands sounds fantastic. Where was it? The boss
there really knows how to create atmosphere.

------
Toast_25
r/notlikeothergirls

And while I'm at it r/IUseReddit

------
blackearl
>I can hear you, dear reader, muttering to yourself. You think I’m some
entitled brat, some tone-deaf pampered prick looking for some way to complain
about my incredible good fortune.

Well, yeah, when you act like everyone else is a sheep because they like
_gasp_ hot food or _dear lord_ a free sweater, you might come across as a
masochistic weirdo. Reminds me a lot of Bottle Rocket or The Comedy.

~~~
ericmcer
Is it more entitled to mindlessly indulge in your good fortune and sink into
the luxuries that birth have afforded you, or to remain restless and shun easy
luxuries as a trap? You could argue that people who are born into situations
of privilege have a responsibility to reject an easy life and leverage their
security to take the risks that others cannot afford too.

~~~
munk-a
When spurning the luxuries of your birth are you giving them to others? Or are
you just spending all those advantages toward a combination of being miserable
in your hair shirt while striving for the ultimate entitlement, earning a
place in future memory?

------
newfangle
Thank you, this article resonated with me.

Expect to get negative feedback and insults from the people who want praise
for not trying to achieve anything great.

~~~
ggggtez
I dunno, the guy basically says that several million people are all nothing
more than drug users just because they don't want to work in a startup. If
that resonates with you, good luck...

