
Rental firm walks away from Tesla order after quality dispute - velmu
https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-tesla-nextmove/germanys-nextmove-cancels-tesla-order-citing-quality-issues-idUKKCN1V61DJ
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CPLX
The fit and finish of Teslas is absolutely embarrassing by any standard, but
by the standards of German car makers it’s a total joke.

My theory has always been that Tesla is pretty much done the day BMW and MB
and Audi get the hang of the electric thing.

The experience of sitting in a $70k+ Tesla is below that of a Honda Civic.
There’s a limit to how long that’s going to last in a competitive market.

~~~
danhak
> The experience of sitting in a $70k+ Tesla is below that of a Honda Civic.

As someone who has owned two Honda Civics and now owns a Model 3 you are
laughably off the mark here.

> Tesla is pretty much done the day BMW and MB and Audi get the hang of the
> electric thing.

"Netflix is pretty much done the day Blockbuster gets the hang of the online
thing."

"Apple is pretty much done the day Nokia gets the hang of the smartphone
thing."

It's astounding to me how a community of technologists and entrepreneurs still
can't grasp the innovator's dilemma at play here. Tesla's lead is
_accelerating_ every year as a new Tesla killer has been perpetually "around
the corner." Cadillac ELR, BMW i3, Chevy Bolt, Chevy Volt, Audi E-Tron, Jaguar
I-Pace were all supposed to eat Tesla's lunch. Just look at the sales numbers.
Not even close.

~~~
rootusrootus
It may be off the mark to compare to a Civic, but I've spent some quality time
in a Model 3, and the only folks who think it compares favorably to a
BMW/Merc/Audi are diehard fans.

Is there a single competitor to the Model 3 on the market yet? They should be
doing really good with the lack of competition.

~~~
giarc
What cars are they comparing? BMW has i3 and i8, Mercedes doesn't have an
electric car yet and Audi has e-tron. The only car you could say is in the
same category is the i3 and those are totally different cars.

~~~
rconti
The i3 is being discontinued in favor of a CUV thing in 2022:

[https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1114966_todays-
bmw-i3-t...](https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1114966_todays-bmw-i3-to-
evolve-into-lower-tech-higher-volume-2022-bmw-ix1-suv-report)

Mercedes is debuting Real Soon Like Now (I think it's out in Europe as of..
the past few days?) the EQC electric GLC-looking SUV thing. Jag has the
i-Pace, which is still uncommon here in the bay area, though I saw quite a few
in Norway.

The new Audi e-tron was all over Norway, and I just saw my first 3-4 here in
the Bay Area this week. (but they had permanent CA license plates so they must
have been out for at least a month or so).

~~~
giarc
My point was more to the OPs comment that his friends are comparing Tesla 3 to
Audi/Mercedes/BMW. I was pointing out that they don't share vehicles in the
same category so a bad comparison.

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jmpman
The Tesla panel gap spec on the front hood is 4.5mm +/\- 1.5mm. One side could
be 3mm, and the other 6mm, and that would be considered within spec. I just
took my Model 3 in for panel gap issues yesterday (new as of 5 weeks ago), and
their fix, although an improvement, wasn’t nearly the quality I’d expect on a
car in the same class as a BMW, but it was “in spec”. I forced the tech to
show me the spec document. After confirming with a panel gap gauge that the
gap on the front was 6mm and within spec, I told the tech that it still didn’t
look right. His advice was to leave it as it is, because other cars with
similar gaps haven’t really been adjusted properly... when one panel is
properly gap’d, the others are then wrong. Whatever method they’re using in
the field to fix the gap problem isn’t able to reliably get consistent gaps.

~~~
semantic_x
The unibody is probably twisted, they would have to put it on a frame pulling
machine. I've seen totalled and rebuilt cars have higher tolerance gaps.

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kryogen1c
>Nextmove said its Model 3 vehicles had paint defects, faulty wiring,
scratches on the dashboard, faulty wheels and condensation in the headlights.

This seems like a pretty significant list of defects for only 85 cars.
Assuming one incedence per defect, 5 / 85 ~= 6%. Thats a high rate of failure
from tesla.

Hopefully damage is being incurred during transit. Tesla is still responsible,
of course, but its better than having bad core processes.

~~~
rconti
One issue our Model 3 had was 2 defroster wires were burned out. I didn't
notice it until ~5mo after delivery. The glass is made by Saint-Gobain, so
arguably it's not Tesla's 'fault'. Would it have happened with another auto
manufacturer? I'm not sure how to assess that. I suppose it could have been
caused in installation or handling of the vehicle, rather than in
manufacturing. Or perhaps the materials and design the automaker specs were
the source of the problem more than the manufacturer of the glass itself?

~~~
MikusR
Did you buy and install that glass yourself? If not, it is Teslas fault.

~~~
lonelappde
No, Tesla bought and installed that glass.

~~~
semantic_x
Then didn't test it.

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zaroth
One possible issue I have heard about regarding _paint_ problems in particular
is that California State and Bay Area local authorities have particularly
tight limits on VOCs in terms of lbs per gallon of paint, and in terms of
total annual lbs of VOC emissions which the Tesla paint shops are allowed to
emit.

I believe the Federal standard is 5.0lbs/gallon but CA limits that further to
3.5lbs/gallon. Apparently it’s pretty hard to make decent hard coat paint with
that little VOC emissions.

The BAAQMD (Bay Area Air Quality Management District) also permits Tesla paint
shops for a maximum total annual VOC emission level. This level could be low
enough that either the paint shop becomes a production bottleneck, or they
have to find ways to use less paint per vehicle.

It can’t be easy to manufacture cars in the regulatory environment that is the
Bay Area, and many of these regs have tightened significantly since GM &
Toyota closed NUMMI in 2010. CARB VOC limits, and local air quality district
regulations in particular.

I’m sure this is an issue that all manufacturers are facing to some degree,
but it’s interesting how the location of the final assembly plants can have a
big impact on the regulations and therefore the finishing processes that can
be used.

EDIT: That’s not to say the limits should not exist, or Tesla should be
granted a waiver, etc.

~~~
JohnJamesRambo
The Bay Area seems like a really poor choice of location to manufacture
anything where cost is a factor.

~~~
_nhynes
Not least of which software...

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semantic_x
Model 3 is assembled outside in a tent, what did they expect?

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thatgerhard
Tesla in the news again for something that wouldn't be considered news for any
other car manufacturer.

~~~
isbjorn16
My brother-in-law works at a very high end car detailing/film shop. He works
on Ferraris and Lambos and McLarens and the like, but also Mercedes and Audi
level of cars.

He also has to spend a lot of time detailing Teslas. Since his job is
literally going every centimeter of the car with the proverbial fine tooth
comb, he has come down hard against Tesla regarding the fit&finish compared to
cars in the same price range. He geeks out hard over the drive train and
performance, but when it comes to the interior and exterior panel fits, he's
stated repeatedly how ... uneven everything is. Each car is extremely
inconsistent, which he doesn't notice with the Audis and Mercedes and BMWs and
such he has come through.

Even with all of that, I'd still be interested in a Model S. I would just like
for the tolerance levels to be tightened before I do.

~~~
AndrewBissell
It's almost like Silicon Valley "move fast & break things" ideology, applied
to auto manufacturing, leads to the manufacture of defect-ridden cars in a
tent.

~~~
isbjorn16
In the abstract, I can see it being a valid strategy; do that, see what parts
need improvement, refine your process to address the issues, see if it's good
enough yet.

I don't think it's reasonable to ask a brand new car company to have the same
levels of detail/polish available to companies that have been around for like
70 or 80 years; those companies probably had to learn a lot of shit too.

I can see this being a valid thought process. That doesn't mean I want to be
the guinea pig.

------
luckydata
from the article

"“We believe the customer’s decision not to take delivery of its remaining
Model 3 orders wasn’t entirely due to quality issues, but was largely
influenced by their frustration with an unrelated dispute from earlier in the
year,” Tesla said in a statement, without elaborating further."

Translated: Nextmove wanted fleet discounts Tesla wasn't willing to provide
and they grasped at straws to get out of the contract. Model 3 famously had
fit and finish issues in the first runs but most issues are resolved and the
quality of vehicles coming off the line now is pretty good. The famous panel
gaps issues, I dare anyone to go measure them on your current car and on a
Tesla built in the second half of 2019 and tell me if it's any different. I've
seen BMW with pretty questionable craftmanship and tons of electrical issues
that are super expensive to resolve.

This is a non news.

~~~
close04
> Translated:

Is this a personal opinion type translation or are you (hypothetically _wink_
) referencing some inside information from either one of the parties?

~~~
luckydata
I live in Fremont. That's all you need to know.

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tastygreenapple
It's a shame that Tesla has build quality issues, but it's rich that a car
company in a country known for making expensive cars with defective designs is
panning a foreign automaker for quality issues.

~~~
pkulak
I see you've never driven a Germany luxury car.

~~~
Shebanator
I've owned many, many BMWs over the past twenty years. I spent way more time
and energy fixing quality issues on those BMWs in their first year than I have
on my Tesla.

The Porsche Boxster I bought in 2015 was much better than the BMWs in its
first year. But it did have a broken convertible top motor upon delivery. And
that car just got totalled by my insurance company, because a defective
firewall caused water to leak into the interior and destroyed the electronics
and interior. The dealer estimated $48K to fix. Yes, $48K.

~~~
driverdan
Keep it and turn it into a track car.

~~~
Shebanator
Thanks for the idea. But given my experience I've kinda soured on Porsche,
plus parts are so damn expensive. My plan is to take part of the settlement
and get/make a track-prepped miata.

Edit: But of course if someone feels so sorry for my tale of woe that they
gift me a GT3, I wouldn't turn it down :-)

~~~
driverdan
I don't blame you. A Miata is a great way to go. So much fun and yet so cheap.

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dplgk
Perhaps Tesla wanted them to cancel the order because they couldn't fulfill it
and that's why they delivered sub-par vehicles that they know would be
throughly scrutinized.

~~~
chc
The idea that Tesla couldn't produce 85 cars and thus intentionally produced
15 bad cars when they could have produced 15 good cars seems a bit far-
fetched.

~~~
dplgk
Well the reality seems to be they couldn't 15 good cars.

