
Texas Lawmakers Pass a Bill Allowing Guns at Colleges - el_duderino
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/03/us/texas-lawmakers-approve-bill-allowing-guns-on-campus.html
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jboggan
I think this makes sense. At least in my own experience attending a university
in a high crime area, there were a number of students who legally owned
firearms (off campus storage), had obtained a concealed carry permit from the
state, and practiced often but were not allowed to protect themselves on
campus. Several times my students were robbed or even kidnapped on campus. The
criminals loved having so many soft targets with new electronics.

A student group petitioned the school president and the state legislature to
allow licensed guns on campus. They were told to instead walk in groups at
night. As a result several enterprising robbers started carrying flex-ties so
they could rob large groups and leave them face down and bereft of their
belongings and dignity.

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jacalata
And you never thought about just transferring out of Mogadishu?

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jboggan
Well I left Atlanta 3 years ago and don't miss it, mainly for those kinds of
reasons. I had the choice and ability to move elsewhere but a lot of people
don't. Is it really reasonable to restart your graduate studies in another
state because you are worried about crime? Or is it more reasonable to be
allowed the same rights and responsibilities concerning self defense that
exist across the street from your university?

A lot of students don't realize how dangerous their colleges are until they
have been there awhile. Administrations do a good job quieting down stories
and keeping them out of the paper.

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glesica
Wouldn't a better long-term solution be to deal with the underlying causes of
the rampant crime? You can arm everyone, but that won't actually stop crime,
just move it somewhere else or force it to evolve. I mean, in the extreme the
thieves could just ambush and kill / severely wound you before you had a
chance to draw your gun. An arms race is never the answer.

Of course dealing with crime intelligently would involve a lot of tough
questions about our economy and society, so I can certainly see how it is
easier to just hand everyone a gun and call it a day. But I think we should at
least advocate for a real solution.

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bicx
I'm all for a real solution, but in the meantime, I would rather not be
considered an ideal target due to my school's policies. If I had the option to
carry a gun as a college student, at least that would put me on par with other
people in the city. I wouldn't even really need to carry a gun; the mere fact
that criminals no longer consider me a guaranteed soft target would be an
improvement.

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jib
As a non-american, this is really weird to me.

I grew up around plenty of guns at my friends - they were moose hunting rifles
mostly. And they were under lock and key unless actively used for hunting,
with guns locked in one location, ammunition locked in another (at least one
of them in safe).

The police where I live now (Ireland) don't carry guns except for a few
special units.

The fact that wearing guns is something that is every day business and that
you can even discuss about is so alien to me that it is fascinating to see. I
am glad I dont live in a society with those values though.

More guns means more people killed by guns. That said, I don't know the
solution once you already have a proliferation of guns in your society.
Personally I don't believe that maximizing the saturation of guns is a long-
term solution but I recognize that it is a difficult situation.

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JoeAltmaier
That's probably not true. More firearms can easily mean fewer deaths. An armed
society is a polite society. Historically the most heavily-armed old west
towns were the ones with the lowest death rates from violence.

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GFischer
My main problem with this is.. why "armed" have to equal "lethal firearms"?
Why no more R&D into nonlethal options (something like an improved taser?).

I don't want to own a gun, because a gun is not effective unless you're
willing to use it (in a last resort), and i don't want to do that... I want to
own a Taser though (for self-defense).

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JoeAltmaier
In the American Constitutional case, 'arms' meant firearms. In some newly
constituted society you could make a different rule I suppose.

And of course nothing keeps you from carrying a taser now.

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giaour
There are generally much stricter regulations on non-lethal weapons than there
are on guns, so the OP might have to be careful in his choice of taser
(depending on where he lives).

I grew up in Texas and was always surprised by how cautious I needed to be
with my boy scout issued knife -- carrying it in Houston would have been a
felony, but carrying a glock was permitted everywhere. I remember my mom
having to carry a can of bear repellant instead of mace for the same reason.

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ericclemmons
I'm pleasantly surprised by the feedback on this so far.

As a CHL holder in Texas, I think this law makes sense. Having taken the
training, which I think should be a prerequisite for gun ownership IMO, my
threshold for when I would brandish my weapon is insanely high now.

Mainly, the course emphasized the huge impact _after_ the situation ends. You
may be the one who's dead, as heroic acts rarely end picture-perfect. You'll
have killed another person, with a family who's life is wrecked as a result.
You'll likely lose tons of money fighting the court cases that'll surely
emerge.

Before, I was brought up with the southern notion that stealing a TV warranted
shooting on sight. Having actually talked through scenarios, taken classes,
and prepared for the unforeseen possibilities, I'd rather avoid using a weapon
unless a death is imminent.

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gonzo
> which I think should be a prerequisite for gun ownership IMO

only the Second Amendment stops you, and people like you.

> my threshold for when I would brandish my weapon is insanely high now.

only... Texas is about to pass Open Carry.

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anigbrowl
Actually, I don't see how the 2nd amendment is incompatible with a training
requirement. It specifies the need for a _well regulated_ militia, and I
disagree that a training requirement constitutes an infringement. It's funny
how 2nd Amendment boosters seem to have no problem denying gun privileges to
ex-felons and the like, even though the Constitution makes no such restriction
and there's no question taht even people locked up in prison have first
amendment rights. I remember being at a legal symposum a few years ago where a
lawyer cheekily offered a paper arguing that 2nd amendment rights must extend
to illegal aliens, which was met with consternation from some of the more
'patriotic' types.

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joshuapants
> even though the Constitution makes no such restriction

Please don't try to pontificate about the Constitution if you have no idea
what it actually says. The fifth amendment indicates that you can be deprived
of liberty after due process of law. That is to say, after you get convicted
of a felony, you may have certain rights restricted.

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JoeAltmaier
That's a curious reading. Its about due process, and loss of life, liberty or
property is forbidden without due process. I guess you can read that to mean
loss of liberty is allowed for criminals. Did they mean temporary
incarceration, or lifetime loss of ALL liberties? Its not clear to me. Sigh.

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joshuapants
It's really not a curious reading at all; the due process clauses in the fifth
and fourteenth amendments are the basis for the constitutionality of laws that
deprive felons of certain rights.

> Did they mean temporary incarceration, or lifetime loss of ALL liberties?

Possibly either, but it's entirely possible to have those liberties restored
by court order.

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staticelf
As a Swede this seems completely medeival to me and I have troubles
understanding how anyone can support such a law.

But since it is the US we're talking about, I'm not surprised. The US just
have 1 additional reason why I wouldn't even consider moving there.

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M8
Is Sweden one of those countries where harming a robber inside your own house
can put you in jail?

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staticelf
Yes :P

At least if you are doing unnecessary damage to the person. For example, if
you are just defending yourself, it is okay. If the robber was not armed and
you shoot him/her down, you will be prosecuted for that.

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muriithi
Kenya is far away from Texas but I wish some of the 147 students who were
killed in their hostels on 2nd of April could shoot back.

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garissa_University_College_atta...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garissa_University_College_attack)

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monochromatic
Why would we trust people with a concealed handgun license to carry all over
town, but force them to go unarmed on campus? And before anyone says
"alcohol," carrying drunk is already a separate crime.

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Glyptodon
I don't know. Forget being safe, I'm reminded of how my college told me I
couldn't keep a fencing foil in my dorm room because it was a "weapon" and I'm
somewhat sympathetic. Especially considering students with baseball bats and
such were never told anything similar. I don't think college should come with
a "only approved hobbies allowed" sign.

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shirro
I need a browser plugin that replaces guns with teddy bears. Because outside
of hunting, sport, policing or warfare I don't know that guns have much of a
role in society. On campus they would seem to replace a thumb in the mouth or
a plush toy in the hand of someone with major insecurities.

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afarrell
So what are your thoughts on
[http://web.mit.edu/mitprc/www/index.html](http://web.mit.edu/mitprc/www/index.html)
?

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shirro
Totally in favour of students learning how to shoot guns or bows or fence with
swords. Why wait for college? With proper supervision these are all
appropriate at high school.

A campus should be inclusive and non-intimidating. If you want women,
minorities, foreign students to feel comfortable and secure, then arming self-
entitled white males to strut around campus with deadly weapons for no reason
other than pandering to their own deep insecurities is not the way to do it.

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hga
Wow, I had no idea this law forbid women and minorities from getting concealed
carry permits and/or carrying on campus (for better or worse, an alien
generally has to be a permanent resident to get a permit).

You don't suppose some of those women want to be able to protect themselves
from the real rape culture?

I also wonder how these "women, minorities, foreign students" would even know
that others are carrying _concealed_ weapons. (Further, a lot of us wonder how
these special snowflakes will cope when they graduate and are in the real
world, after being coddled all their lives.)

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afarrell
What threat model are you picturing for rape that pulling out a pistol would
be an effective response? Even "jump-from-the-bushes" rape (which is a pretty
small proportion of rape) tends to involve close distances. Pulling a pistol
on someone within arms reach is tricky even if you are sober and at about
equal strength.

(I am not a martial arts or combat systems instructor of any kind.)

~~~
hga
Well, somehow it nonetheless works for a whole lot of women/people in general;
the statistic I've read is that the average gun fight occurs at 7 feet of
distance. And of course one of the points here is that a gun is an equalizer
for people with a strength difference.

Consider the Zimmerman-Martin case. Martin, taller and with the advantage of
hitting first, was on top of Zimmerman, pounding his head into a concrete
sidewalk, and Zimmerman nonetheless was able to draw his gun and shoot Martin.

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louithethrid
Now .. the cold war showed that when everybody has a nuke then nobody will
ever live to tell the tale from that one guy, who build a gun wilding drone.

The problem is that crime is so high, and crime is so high, because society
basically provide those guys with high-income-guaranteed-protected-by-the-
state-zones (drug trade). And the drug trade is part of your way of life. You
cant preach protestant ethics and expect those who fall short to stay in that
harsh reality that is created.

Even if everybody gets a free wrench, if the aqueduct is pumping water into
your houses attic, you never gonna have a dry day. But you gonna have people
bleeding from there heads where the wrenches hit.

Armed campus police would make sense though.

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ExpiredLink
Once upon a time at an US college:

[http://filmmakeriq.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/Once-
Upon-...](http://filmmakeriq.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/Once-Upon-a-Time-
in-the-West.jpg)

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M8
They should allow it in schools as well. Would stop bullying quite quick.

~~~
arethuza
Out of interest, do kids get taught weapons handling and how to shoot at high
school in the US?

[NB I'm asking because some kids get taught these things in the UK]

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hga
There's a Junior Reserve Officers' Training Corps (JROTC
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Junior_Reserve_Officers%27_Tra...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Junior_Reserve_Officers%27_Training_Corps))
program that's reasonably popular in many parts of the US, and weapons
training is a popular part of it. When I did it in the late '70s it was small
bore/.22LR in the winter when getting out wasn't so practical, and there was
an opportunity to go to a "summer camp" where you would practice with real
service rifles, practice grenades (they wouldn't let the young ones try out
real ones), putting on a gas mask in a tear gas chamber, basically a junior
boot camp sort of thing. My parents were no fun at all and wouldn't let me
attend the latter :-( which due to eyesight was the closest I ever could get
to the real thing ).

And of course a rifle team, in which I had a lot of fun, small bore rifles, 50
feet, the "10" was a dot the size of the hole a needle makes in a piece of
paper. Quite challenging and two years of early morning practice really
improved my marksmanship, even got a nifty and 100% authentic Expert
marksmanship badge
([https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marksmanship_Badges_(United_St...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marksmanship_Badges_\(United_States\)#United_States_Army)).
We on the team helped with the safety monitoring and instruction in the winter
rifle marksmanship and that was very worthwhile as well, teaching a novice
well enough to get a Marksman badge was a great experience and generally
useful for life.

In fact, teaching others was one of the things JROTC explicitly taught, as
they pointed out the Army has to constantly teach a lot of people all sorts of
things. Definitely one of the most useful things I learned in high school.

~~~
arethuza
The CCF used to be called the "Junior Division of the Officers Training Corp"
\- but I think they renamed it to try and remove the association of public
(i.e. private) school -> posh -> officer.

