
I Knew Chelsea Manning in Basic Training. Here’s the Story You Haven’t Heard - jackgavigan
https://huwieler.net/2017/01/18/chelsea-manning-in-basic-combat-training/
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justin_vanw
So as a veteran I can certainly remember the annoying kids in basic training
that couldn't really keep up. I think every veteran can remember some folks
they went to training with that could barely hack it.

But what's the point of harping on it years later? I don't think anyone would
be surprised that Manning was a 'bad soldier'.

Then there is a bunch totally unrelated stuff that happened much later, took a
huge amount of courage, and led to arrest and imprisonment.

~~~
cholantesh
Serious question: is it a fairly accurate perception that if someone can't
hack it in basic they will _never_ be able to make it as a soldier? I'd like
to think that Manning had the potential to become better, though I'm not
really familiar with her career outside of the leak.

~~~
k__
I don't know, luckily I nerver had to work as a soldier.

But I read some stories about soldiers getting medals for progarmming stuff,
when they were deployed somewhere. So it seems the stuff you learn in basic
training doesn't necessarily determine the value you got for the army you
serve for.

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makecheck
This type of article amounts to “ad hominem attack”. Whether or not any of
this is true _does not matter_ when fairly judging the _actions_ of the same
person.

In other words, forget what you know about the person and consider only what
they did.

~~~
Justin_K
The article's intent is to address the picture that was painted, for how she
was treated. The author is saying that she came in, repeatedly quit and put
herself at odds with the team. Being a non conformist has no place in boot
camp. According to the author, she was not mistreated or characterized there,
rather, she was encouraged to try and to be one of the team.

~~~
bsder
> Being a non conformist has no place in boot camp.

That's not necessarily a good thing.

The most effective soldiers are actually quite good at figuring out how to
counter the system.

In addition, soldiers are given _quite clear_ orders about things like the
Geneva Convention and _they are supposed to disobey orders that contradict
them_.

~~~
Hnrobert42
Said as a true non conformist.

~~~
gremlinsinc
Nothing wrong w/ that to conform is to become in essence just a cog in the
machine, there's no value to conformity, it takes away one's humanity... as I
work each day to conform to the coding standards of psr2, and that our dev
team has -- lol but that's more for aesthetics and organiztion than just the
sake of demanding conformity for the sake of control.

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xutopia
The arguments in this open as to why we shouldn't like Chelsea Manning was
that she misunderstood social cues, didn't respond well eating a whole meal
within 2 minutes and 45 seconds, and complained she couldn't do it about a few
of the idiotic exercises you are asked to do.

Yeah no shit... military training is ridiculous. I think a lot of us have
enough sense to not ever join.

~~~
cubecul
I recommend reading the entire thing. The article is not trying to pitch the
audience against Manning, just that the currently popular image of Manning is
incomplete.

~~~
toomuchtodo
I don't care what the image is of Manning, that's no excuse to treat her like
the US military did.

We are human beings (or so we like to believe), not savages.

~~~
vanattab
What is the US military accused of doing?

~~~
toomuchtodo
[https://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/13/us/chelsea-manning-
senten...](https://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/13/us/chelsea-manning-sentence-
obama.html)

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bryanrasmussen
Yes sir, given the sharp picture this article paints her actions in leaking
while in boot camp was just another example of someone refusing to get with
the program. Either that or the two things don't really have much to do with
each other...

I find it weird, the implication in the article is of a weak person.

So, she leaked classified material and went to prison because she was weak,
which sure is a narrative alright. I bet the author of the piece is mentally,
morally and physically strong enough to never leak classified material,
destroy their life and suffer greatly for doing something that has no
appreciable benefit to them.

So the logic goes like this: Manning was different, therefore Manning was
weak, Manning did something the author and other people at boot camp wouldn't
therefore Manning is still different therefore still weak. Weak, weak, weak
not strong like the author and other soldiers who cohere together to value
commitment and loyalty, manly non-weak virtues that weakling Manning could
never know.

Anyway, really it seems a little unlikely given this description of Manning as
a soldier that she would ever have gotten through basic. So I wouldn't be
surprised if there are a few lies sprucing up the main point of the article,
which main point being that Manning is weak and we should feel a sort of moral
disgust about that condition of weakness.

ah well, the writing was just awful. Maybe that's why I ascribe an awful world
view to it.

~~~
bryanrasmussen
just in case anyone is confused - the statement about leaking in bootcamp is
sarcasm, since I think - well it really seems the narrative is of someone who
wouldn't have made it through bootcamp to a place where they could end up
leaking classified intel and anyway I'm one of those who think the actions in
the two places do not have as strong a thematic article as the author
implies... so I don't really believe the story as told.

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wtfishackernews
I don't understand everyone picking on military training practices. They don't
do that for fun or to humiliate you, they do it to prepare you for combat. You
sign up for that when you join the military.

~~~
gulaschbrot
I just don't understand why even a single person on earth would voluntarily
want to join this torture, or why she didn't quit. I would have quit after 2
minutes.

~~~
stagger87
Torture? Sounds like high school wrestling practice.

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arbitrage
So, if she had all of these problems in training, why didn't she wash out?

~~~
entee
I had the same question. Toward the end, the article mentions that the
military was starved for recruits and the standards relaxed a little. Maybe
eventually she passed at a minimal bar and they needed bodies so she made it
through.

I think the article paints a picture of someone who didn't fit in, and who
just wasn't in a mental space compatible with the military. Nothing wrong with
that, but probably shouldn't be a soldier. I'm sure her experiences all
contributed to her taking the extraordinary step of leaking all this
information. Human behavior is complicated, I think it would be best not to
demonize her despite what I believe to be a mixed record on the outcomes of
the leak.

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Sone7
He rails on her for the entire article as a quitter.

... But she didn't quit. Kinda diminishes his entire point for me.

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JoeAltmaier
Reads like a classic co-dependent personality? Always trying to stand out by
eliciting sympathy for weakness. "Poor me, I can't do this stuff". Even to the
point of faking choking. Isn't there some psychiatric examination to detect
this early on?

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qntty
Sounds like she was a sane person in an insane environment

~~~
digler999
the military's duty is to prepare its soldiers for war, which isn't a
particularly "sane environment". It seems logical to break down a recruit's
sense of self and rebuild it in a manner that emphasizes the interests of the
group over the individual. I'm shocked that the Army let someone with this
kind of "me first" syndrome rise up the ranks high enough to be near sensitive
material.

My other thoughts on the case are that her 37 year sentence was draconian, and
the solitary and mind-tricks they played on her in prison were cruel and
unusual. And that overall we are better off having the collateral murder video
so the war can be seen for what it is. Not sure if there was any value in
leaking the diplomatic cables, though.

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georgehaake
Impressive recall.

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apeacox
Well, you haven't to be a soldier to be a hero.

