
The Fertility Doctor’s Secret - pseudolus
https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2019/04/fertility-doctor-donald-cline-secret-children/583249/
======
elliotec
Hi, I am one of the hundreds + of offspring of Thomas Lippert - read the crazy
story here:
[https://www.cityweekly.net/utah/multiplicity/Content?oid=237...](https://www.cityweekly.net/utah/multiplicity/Content?oid=2373794)

You can also find a bunch of video interviews that my half sister did when she
found out by searching his name.

There are about 20 of us in contact now through 23&Me and Ancestry DNA tests,
and at least 5 more that want no contact whatsoever. We get a new one nearly
every month, and more so after holidays or sales on DNA tests. Estimations go
into the thousands.

Luckily(?) my (real, not bio) dad was dead before he found out, but my parents
had no idea.

Finding out was a serious trip. There were A LOT of implications with it,
especially with meeting my half siblings. If anyone wants more details, I'm
happy to talk about it.

~~~
ericjang
Q1: What is your understanding of Thomas Lippert's motivations in doing what
he did?

Q2: What physical & behavioral similarities do you observe between you and
your half-siblings? Do you have any insight on the nature vs. nurture debate?

~~~
elliotec
1\. He hated kids and raised none, he was the epitome of the "get off my lawn"
neighbor in his area and was really aggressive to the neighbors especially the
kids. More info on that in the above link.

My siblings and I have speculated the hell out of his motivations, and I've
personally come to the conclusion that he was in a position to industrialize
his evolutionary impact and took advantage of it.

Most of life has an implicit "purpose" to reproduce, and he found an extremely
efficient way of mechanizing that, without any of the downsides like actually
raising the offspring.

It's odd and I'm getting personal here but I always knew I wanted kids since I
can remember, and I knew that if I never found a partner to have children
with, I'd want to donate sperm for the sheer biology of it. It's an odd thing
to try to express, but I'd be surprised if most people don't have some level
of that.

2\. As far as physical characteristics, I actually look quite a bit like him
in many ways (especially the younger photos before he was drinking himself to
death). But certainly better :D You can reference my website in my bio and the
link in my parent post if you want to see. Eyes, hair, skin color, facial
features, relative height, etc.

Behavioral - I was diagnosed with bipolar 1 disorder when I was 20. We could
never figure out where that came from. It's treated now and also good to have
someone to blame. I feel i share many personality traits that describe him, to
certain (usually lesser) degrees.

They also say 80% of "intelligence" is inherited, and not to rag on my
wonderful parents or prop myself up or anything, but we all sort of always
wondered where I got that too vs my parents or other relatives. Also the
aforementioned biological urge is a pretty interesting point - all of my
siblings so far either have children or want them.

Most of my siblings are musical and play at least one musical instrument or
sing or act or perform in some way, and he was apparently a great multi
instrumentalist. The list goes on and on.

I'd put quite a lot more weight into nature than I ever would have before. I
was convinced of nurture being the obvious bigger influencer but much of that
could be attributed to lack of similarities with my family growing up. When I
found out about this, I discussed it heavily with my siblings and some of
their families and we all agreed that nature plays an enormous role that we'd
never know otherwise.

~~~
robhunter
Elliot, are you part of "We are Donor Conceived" on Facebook? There is a group
of 1,000+ people on there that I think could really benefit from your
perspective.

~~~
elliotec
I haven't heard of it, thanks for the recommendation!

------
jedberg
> But artificial insemination still requires an exchange of bodily fluids that
> can be procured only through sexual stimulation. (Consider: the
> stereotypical drawer of porn magazines at the fertility doctor’s office.)

This reminds me of the time I went to give my sample. I checked into the
office, and the nurse looked at me, looked at my (Asian) wife, and then
reached into her bottom drawer and pulled out a DVD of porn starting some
Asian girls (I was not offered a choice or selection).

I was then given a cup and shown to my room. In the middle of the room was a
very uncomfortable hospital chair covered in one of those pads that they put
down that absorbs liquids to keep it sanitary. In the front of the room was a
20 inch tube TV/DVD combo (this was in 2013, long after the advent of flat
screen TVs, so this TV was at least 10 years old). Hanging off the TV was a
crappy pair of headphones.

To the left, a rack of about 25 porno mags of every kind of kink.

I was told to lock the door and then knock when I was done so the sample could
be collected.

Not exactly the most conducive environment for producing that sample.

~~~
js2
After I had my tubes tied, the office wanted a sample to verify the procedure,
but as I recall they had me bring it in from home. Handing over a brown paper
bag with a plastic container of your bodily fluids, whatever they may be, to
the receptionist at a doctor's office is always an odd experience, but
obviously they are used to it.

~~~
jedberg
Most of my samples were given that way, but for the IVF fresh cycles, they
needed it to be... fresher.

------
jedberg
My children were conceived by IVF (in the 2010s). I'm not too worried that the
doctor used their own sperm, since the doctor is a woman, and in fact I didn't
see a single man working anywhere in the IVF clinic.

But one thing that's always on my mind is what if they accidentally switched
the sample before conception? Since the conception took place outside of my
wife's body, what's even better is that our children might be related to me
but not her, if they switched the eggs around.

At some point we'll probably do a DNA test on them just for fun. The results
won't matter at that point -- they're mine and I love them.

But you know, maybe they get a free college education out of the results. :)

~~~
minkeymaniac
I have 3 kids conceived by IVF as well. We donated the leftover fertilized
eggs and a couple has now a 12 year old daughter. I have seen the pictures and
my 3 kids know that they have a biological sister out there. It will be
interesting to see if she will contact us once and if she finds out (We
allowed for the option to contact us)

~~~
jedberg
Cool! We're still trying to figure out what to do with our last embryo. We've
been told that they have too many embryos for science in California, and they
can't cross state lines, so they are throwing away the donations.

We're still not sure if we want to try and use it ourselves (although the time
for that is quickly going away) or give it to someone we know who wants it, or
giving it to a stranger. Giving it to a stranger just feels odd to me, but at
the same time I'd really like to see the results of nature vs nurture...

~~~
bdamm
I recommend the documentary "Three Identical Strangers". Stay for the surprise
ending.

------
nabla9
This sounded so familiar that I googled little.

Fertility doctor getting caught using his own sperm has happened several times
before. It has been the plot in tv-series and SNL skit.

It's obvious solution if you want to improve the results of your clinic and
perform miracles when all other doctors fail.

[https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/magazine/the-
fertil...](https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/magazine/the-fertility-
doctor-who-got-jail-time--and-inspired-an-snl-
skit/2017/05/02/68788f36-1a1f-11e7-855e-4824bbb5d748_story.html)?

[https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5603323/Canadian-
fe...](https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5603323/Canadian-fertility-
doctor-used-sperm-father-11-children.html)

------
ghostbrainalpha
*In 1987, a national survey of fertility doctors found that 2 percent had used their own sperm in patients.

~~~
rosser
And that's just ones who would admit it on a survey.

~~~
gubbrora
There may be the opposite effect too. People who misread the question or joke
around or whatever.

I've heard that you will always get a small percentage yes on surveys no
matter the question.

~~~
thecabinet
The Lizardman Constant: [https://slatestarcodex.com/2013/04/12/noisy-poll-
results-and...](https://slatestarcodex.com/2013/04/12/noisy-poll-results-and-
reptilian-muslim-climatologists-from-mars/)

------
bhouston
I think the record is 600 offspring:

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bertold_Wiesner](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bertold_Wiesner)

------
_bxg1
Wild. What a sick, strange thing to do.

------
dbt00
the Law and Order episode "Seed" in season 5 (1995) dealt with a similar case.
I'm not surprised it's coming out in real life as genetic testing becomes
consumer-accessible.

------
zxcvvcxz
Honestly men probably shouldn't be put in a position to be able to tamper with
things like this. The evolutionary advantageous temptation is too great.

Similarly, to solve a related problem, we should require mandatory paternity
testing at birth so men don't unwittingly raise someone else's child.

------
deogeo
In the end, does it really matter that much who provided the DNA? Family is
mostly socially constructed anyway - just because half the children's DNA
comes from someone else, doesn't mean they belong any less to the parents who
raised them.

~~~
something2
In the case of switching the eggs, is it possible that the host mother would
be more likely to reject it? Because in that case, I feel it's a fairly clear
case in which you have directly affected one's ability to have a family by
doing this.

~~~
tathougies
Not sure about one woman's eggs in another woman, but this is certainly true
of an anonymous _sperm_ donor. In order to have the lowest chance of pre-
eclampsia the woman needs to have been exposed vaginally to the man's semen
for six months. Donor sperm children thus have higher rates of pre-eclampsia
in pregnancy.

[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24011785](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24011785)

Similarly, donor sperm has been shown to increase pre-eclampsia

[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25282539](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25282539)

Not all sperm is the same, regardless of what the market or the fertility
industry thinks. There's a purpose to the act of sex.

