

Trends: Uber vs. Lyft - willthelaw
http://www.diklein.com/blog/2014/11/17/trends-uber-vs-lyft
Or, really, he quit using uber.<p>(TL;DR - they are possibly evil)
======
birken
If you live in San Francisco, you might consider getting a bike and/or using
public transportation instead of ride-sharing services. Either of them are
better for the city by reducing congestion and pollution, and biking in
particular is surprisingly fast and convenient.

If you are interested in getting introduced to biking, there are a bunch of
free classes by the SF Bicycle Coalition that I highly recommend you look
into:

[https://www.sfbike.org/resources/urban-bicycling-
workshops/](https://www.sfbike.org/resources/urban-bicycling-workshops/)

For public transportation, here are a couple of "far too specific" guides for
different types of public transit:

Light Rail:
[http://fartoospecific.tumblr.com/post/63733141599/fartoospec...](http://fartoospecific.tumblr.com/post/63733141599/fartoospecific-
guide-san-francisco-public-transit)

BART:
[http://fartoospecific.tumblr.com/post/100628937344/fartoospe...](http://fartoospecific.tumblr.com/post/100628937344/fartoospecific-
guide-bart-bay-area-rapid-transit)

~~~
sinak
So I cycle around SF, but am considering stopping. The data varies depending
on which source you use, but it seems like cycling is about 3 times less
dangerous than motorbiking, and considerably (at least ~5-10x) more dangerous
than driving. Most people who've lived in SF have plenty of anecdotal evidence
of friends who've been hurt, often seriously, by bike accidents.

I'd love to be proven wrong about this: I love cycling and particularly like
getting built-in exercise in my routine. And I'll continue to donate to the SF
bicycle coalition, and vote for improving infrastructure to support cyclists.
It just seems most rational to stop actually cycling.

~~~
stanleydrew
I've ridden my bike to and from work in SF nearly every day for the past 4
years and have only once come close to being in an accident with a car.

But every day I see plenty of other cyclists making overly-aggressive moves
that put themselves and other people in danger. You may claim that I'm blaming
the victim, but from what I've observed many cyclists kind of enjoy a little
(in their opinion) justified indignation at the behavior of car drivers. And
they'll intentionally put themselves in positions to feel that justified rage.

How many times have you seen a cyclist in the right-hand bike lane try to
overtake a car signaling for a right turn while both are approaching an
intersection, rather than yielding to the car who will clearly reach the
intersection first? And then the cyclist acts surprised and offended when the
driver begins to turn into them.

Of course this is a recipe for disaster, and I see it multiple times per week
from my position a safe distance back from the turning car, which I can
observe and then safely pass on the left.

You don't have to be a rocket scientist to be safe on a bike. Just use your
head and ride a bit defensively.

~~~
swang
The fact that bikes want to be treated as "cars" on the road (as in they want
space and respect), but when their light is red all of a sudden they become
tiny little passengers that can illegally cross the red light. I'm not talking
about the ones that stop and look. I mean the ones that just fly straight
through the light because they believe they have a few seconds before the
cross traffic comes, which is true about 99% of the time. Then you get the 1%
of the time a car decides to jump the light and goes early.

Bikes are also extremely rude to pedestrians. I have never heard drivers
yelling at pedestrians when they are crossing a cross-walk. I have however,
been exiting a bus after there was an accident ahead and have had a bike
barely stop in front of all the exiting passengers and scream, "HEY IM TRYING
TO GET TO WORK HERE" as though everybody needs to get out of the way because
he is very important. Also seen bikes try to go through when the pedestrians
are trying to cross the street. Luckily it is nothing like that idiot that
rammed his bike through the pedestrian crosswalk and killed a man just so he
wouldn't have to slow down.

Maybe the cyclists (in general) should stop being so aggressive, arrogant, and
consider the actual people that have no protection from cyclists. Maybe then
there won't be so many bike accidents.

PS. It's a _BAD_ idea to cross your bike in front of a MUNI bus just so you
can make it over to the intersection you somehow overbiked. Let the MUNI bus
win.

PPS. FFS wear a goddamn helmet.

~~~
lamontcg
Maybe you should stop making so many generalizations?

There is the odd total idiot on a bike who blows through stop signs and stop
lights without stopping and doesn't have a headlight and is dressed in all
black without a helmet. There are a ton of other bicyclists who have flashing
headlights, dress in bright yellow jackets, wear helmets and stop at
intersections. What do you want the latter to do about the former? Its not
like there's a meeting of bicyclists where we all get together and draw lots
for who gets to be the idiot this week, and just because I ride my bike to
work doesn't imbue me with any magical abilities to police the idiots out
there.

I suspect that you're not really looking for any kind of workable solution,
though, and you're just butthurt about the one guy who did that one dumb thing
to you, though, so please continue to vent uselessly about what "cyclists (in
general)" should all do to appease your indignation.

------
yummyfajitas
Why do we dislike Uber? Lets go through the links.

1) Stuff about the CEO's personal life.

2) CEO wants to automate business processes. Those of us in tech would _never_
consider replacing humans with machines, right?

3) Trying to compete for workers. (Didn't we hate Apple/Google for agreeing
not to do this?)

4) We love Peter Thiel and he hates it.

5-7) A few Uber drivers are crazy (Uber is helping the cops). Note that if
most of these incidents happened in a taxi, the cops would have little info
unless the passenger remembered a license #.

8) Standard french advertising in France.

9) Standard PR.

10) Exec discusses hiring journalists to do journalism to journalists. You
know, digging up stuff about their personal life, kind of like (1) on this
list.

Are these the real justifications? Or are we simply engaging in internet
mobbing because we get to feel self righteous, and the CEO is kind of a jerk?

Disclaimer: I've used Uber maybe 3-4x in my life and was happy every time.
Lyft rejected my CC. I use autowale.in whenever I can't flag one off the
street.

~~~
moab
I feel like you're playing the devil's advocate here. Despite the recent
witch-hunt surrounded the company lately (which I won't try to defend), you
can't deny the fact that they've engaged in some fairly unscrupulous business
tactics in order to 1) acquire drivers from competing ride-sharing services,
and 2) significantly drop wages (primarily due to competition in cities with
multiple ride-sharing services) at the cost of workers pulling fairly inhuman
hours.

The latter point is not just Uber's problem, but the ride-sharing industry's
as a whole. I point it out mainly to argue that as the leader in the industry,
Uber has at least some obligation to treat the pawns on the board a little
better.

To succinctly answer your question: there are real justifications, and it's a
combination of Uber's business tactics, and the way they're treating their
human capital.

~~~
yummyfajitas
I'm simply pointing out more or less nonsensical arguments and mob behavior.
The Uber CEO may be an objectivist jerk, but that doesn't mean everything he
does is evil.

 _2) significantly drop wages (primarily due to competition in cities with
multiple ride-sharing services)..._

Companies competing for workers drops wages? That's an _interesting_ economic
theory. I guess the Uber people who were hiring lyft cars in order to try and
recruit the driver were saying "come join Uber, we'll pay you less?"

I'm confused here.

~~~
mrow84
>> significantly drop wages (primarily due to competition in cities with
multiple ride-sharing services) > Companies competing for workers drops wages?

I think that moab's point was that competition between ride-sharing companies
lowers prices, and one of the places those price reductions come from is a
reduction in worker's wages.

~~~
moab
Yup - thanks for phrasing that better :)

Price reduction has played out its tune in tech before - at cost pricing was
how Amazon won (and continues to have a chokehold over e-commerce). At Amazon,
however, employees from the warehouse stockers to their receptionists are
under contract and regulation, and get guaranteed wages for reasonable hours.
Compare this to Uber where there's basically a massive disparity between the
number of effective workers (drivers + employees) and the number of actual
'employees'. As a bystander, I'm worried about the humans involved in this bet
between Uber/Lyft and co, and hope they start finding ways to either pull
drivers into the company itself, or offer better guarantees or securities for
the drivers. The first company to do this will probably get a ton of good
press, and will also up the ante on consumer perception of ridesharing in
general (it's great, but feels 'evil').

~~~
mrow84
I certainly agree with your sentiments, but I thought that Amazon had also had
problems, with contractors in its fulfilment centres being denied guaranteed
hours, though perhaps I misunderstood the issue. There have certainly been
problems like that in the UK, with "zero hours" contracts, where people are
offered positions without guaranteed hours, and it is currently a fairly hot
political topic without an obvious resolution, beyond banning them, though
that wouldn't necessarily be helpful.

Personally, I think the fundamental issues in this area lie not with the
flexibility that these types of arrangements offer, but rather in the
asymmetry in negotiations between employers and employees. The labour market
as a whole is completely distorted by poverty, for want of a better word, to
the point where any notions of free exchange are, frankly, ridiculous.

If the collective "we" can implement a way of preserving the ability of people
to sell their labour without being placed into unreasonable positions to do
so, then we could probably achieve quite dramatic improvements in overall
welfare. Until then, as you say, the costs of the system will almost always
fall on a group of real people whose difficulties, beyond the occasional
editorial piece, are largely ignored (or attributed to something else, such as
laziness).

------
ethanhunt_
Only got through the first two links before I stopped reading.

First link: says that Uber CEO Travis comes off as a bit of an ass in
interviews, and therefore Uber should hire a PR person. So you're switching to
Lyft because they have better PR people?

Second link: an article with a headline that is misleading and would have a
good run at being ruled libelous. TLDR: Travis said "I love [self driving
cars] all day long. The Uber experience is expensive because it’s not just the
car but the other dude in the car. When there’s no other dude in the car, the
cost [of taking an Uber] gets cheaper than owning a vehicle." You have a
problem with a business identifying a way to eliminate one of their biggest
expenses? Humans driving cars around is a complete waste of time; anyone
saying otherwise is a luddite (the best kind of luddite: one with a twitter
account).

~~~
chadillac
Biggest expenses AND biggest liabilities.

If I could take a self driving Uber/Lyft/taxi I would do it in a heart beat,
my experiences with Uber/Lyft have been much better than a run of the mill
taxi which is why I tend to use them over taxis whenever possible. That being
said, a self driving car with no personal motives, road rage, cell phone, etc.
sounds like an even better experience.

------
sinak
The idea of any one company owning such a large proportion of global transport
infrastructure seems scary to me. And the fact that Uber's leadership seems to
have a very poor ethical compass makes the path we're headed down seem pretty
ominous.

I've been trying to think of better, less centralized solutions, and they're
not too hard to imagine. An open transportation marketplace, populated by
independent vendors, isn't so far-fetched. In fact it'd probably look quite
similar to Craigslist, except with better handling of user identities and
reputations, and a much better mobile-focused user experienced. Anyone could
list a delivery service in one of a number of different categories, with
custom price rules, and categories might include taxi/human transport
services, food delivery, package delivery, etc. A review system, payment
integration and mapping would come built into both the provider and user's
mobile apps, but insurance etc. would be up to the individual vendors. Fees
for listing services would be nominal, and almost all the revenue would go
directly to the vendors themselves.

The trouble with this kind of service is that it'd end up being quite a bit
less safe and quite a bit more messy than interacting with a single company
like Uber. But the lower transaction costs should make services significantly
cheaper, and power would be much less centralized.

~~~
logn
I think the solution is taxi cabs. If you want to disrupt taxis, petition your
city/state politicians.

------
eksith
And this, folks, is why taxi regulation is a thing. Of course, there is crime
and corruption and they have their own variety of scams[1]. But what you won't
see is a sweeping sense of impunity because if you go out of bounds to this
degree so blatantly (and at regular intervals, it seems), a rather large
hammer will come down on you and your union. Taxi drivers in general are well
aware of this.

But a bunch of broexecs, who answer to no one, setting the tone for everyone
else is unlikely to feel any need to change any time soon.

[1] [http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/tlc-22-000-cab-
drivers-p...](http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/tlc-22-000-cab-drivers-
pulled-fast-riders-massive-rate-switching-scam-article-1.446427)

~~~
moab
I think what'll come out of this entire experiment is something very, very
similar to the current taxi industry - simply with better apps and
dependability, and I will not complain at all. A little part of me suspects
that this will not be Uber (at least in America, where the regulatory blockade
feels really impenetrable as an engineer), although at this point it's anyones
game.

~~~
prawn
Why haven't taxi companies done this themselves to see off the upstart
competitors?

~~~
moab
Probably because taxi companies are a dime-a-dozen across various cities and
states, and the capital required for an engineering investment to pull
something like this off just isn't there at any given shop. It's a technology
problem that the existing industry faces, and because the existing competition
is essentially a coalition of independent companies, they can't band together
to build something like this without a joined effort (nigh impossible).

I was recently in Pittsburgh and saw a clunky touch-screen app stuck to the
back of the passenger seat that sounded just like Uber, so it's clear that
someone out there is working on building Uber-like dependability for your
taxi. But I also remember talking to the cab-driver on that trip, and having
him tell me that their 'dispatch' is still one person sitting in an office
somewhere manually dialing and dispatching cabs to received calls. The status
quo in the industry is just so ancient in so many ways. Here's to hoping they
can start moving and respond though.

------
dnautics
>There are too many instances of immaturity, deception, corruption, and
negligence.

As an uber and lyft driver (I prefer lyft) who has created a runway to launch
a startup nonprofit by driving for both, lyft has had its share of immaturity
and negligence, you just haven't heard about it as much. But only 2/4 is an
improvement. What worries me is that in many cases lyft has looked at uber and
done exactly what they do. In most cases so far it's been merely superficial,
but I worry it is only time until it becomes more than that.

A common mantra in the dual driver community is "uber is evil; lyft is
incompetent"

~~~
mikeleeorg
If you are willing to share more, I would love to hear more about your
experiences with each. The Uber news definitely drowns out the Lyft news, and
it would be great to get a balanced view of each.

------
sswezey
This article lacks any kind of substance: it is a short summary of a couple of
links about Über with an accompanying graph of the blogger's Über/Lyft usage.

~~~
rtpg
The author has stated that he has reached his breaking point, and others
should consider whether they have too.

Disruptive companies have this narrative of being some sort of underdog
fighting against the corrupt elite of a broken industry. If I'm going to agree
with letting them take their huge margins (partly due to illegally not
implementing regulations/collecting the proper taxes), they can at least
pretend not to treat people as shit. Not like they need to penny-pinch
anyways.

At the end of the day, we always seem to end up becoming greedy exploiters of
some underclass.

~~~
kjksf
Uber breaks the law, everybody knows about it and yet no one goes to jail or
get sued.

How does that happen? How does Uber avoids any consequences for their
flagrantly illegal (according to you) behavior?

Do they have magic "get out of jail" card?

Did they manage to buy police, district attorneys, judges, the whole
enchilada?

Is it time to turn to street to overthrow our government, which, at least
according to you, is incapable of performing it's function of preserving law
and order in the face of those blatant criminals from Uber.

------
cheeze
I also deleted the app earlier today. Even mentioning threatening journalists
is incredibly ridiculous. I'm happy to see Lyft getting bigger in my city, and
have had great experiences with them.

~~~
tomphoolery
I wish I could delete the US Government for this same reason. :)

But seriously, I would love it if Lyft came to Philly...I think they're
waiting to see what happens with UberX around here. I know this probably isn't
going to be a popular opinion around HN, but should Uber succeed at
circumventing the law in Philadelphia, Lyft and Sidecar will surely follow.
Prior to UberX, other companies like Sidecar attempted to set up shop and got
shot down by the state. Perhaps that's one good thing that came out of all
this mess, since Uber isn't afraid to step on toes to get places, they've
caused one hell of a discussion in Philadelphia and have forced the cab
companies to really step up their game, providing better services, cleaner
vehicles and easier dispatching. It used to be so difficult to get a cab,
nowadays I can't even imagine walking anywhere just because I think maybe cabs
will be out there...

~~~
onewaystreet
This is why no one will beat Uber. Its competitors aren't willing or aren't
capable of winning the fight themselves. If Uber dies the ridesharing industry
dies with it.

------
chx
This is a company that pushed subprime loans on its drivers then substracts
the debt from their income. That's called indentured servitude.
[http://valleywag.gawker.com/uber-and-its-shady-partners-
are-...](http://valleywag.gawker.com/uber-and-its-shady-partners-are-pushing-
drivers-into-su-1649936785)

------
joshfraser
My primary form of transportation is a bike, but my ride-sharing trends are
pretty similar to David's. I've been using Lyft far more than Uber lately even
though I view them as completely interchangeable services and I'm not known
for having strong brand loyalty. In SF, Lyft and Uber are comparable on both
price and speed, so it's an easy decision to use one service over the other,
even if you only have a slight preference. For me the shift hasn't happened
out of outrage at Uber, but because I like the Lyft experience so much more.
Lyft drivers are overwhelmingly friendly and Lyft Line tends to attract
similarly friendly people. I've had some great conversations while sharing
rides on Lyft Line where I actually didn't want the ride to end so soon. I've
swapped contact info with some cute girls, met a potential hire, and landed a
couple new customers all while sharing rides on Lyft.

I like that Lyft has a reputation for taking care of their drivers. In the
words of one driver I rode with, "there are no drivers protesting outside the
Lyft office". Instead, their drivers speak highly of the company. As a
company, they seem like they are starting to find their stride. Their mission
from the beginning was to get people to shares rides and fill up all those
single-passenger cars you see everywhere. They're making good progress on that
mission today and cutting down on traffic is something I care about as well.
Uber has a ride-sharing option too, but they don't seem to be nearly as
motivated by that purpose. I'm not sure what Uber's mission is actually.

------
kokey
It's interesting how taxi brokers are also like other fads and people will
align to them according to their own values. Since before Uber there are many
taxi companies with their own Uber-like service and taxi brokers similar to
Uber. I know of people who switched company or broker based on statements the
owner of the one company made on radio about cyclists. When Uber is new in
town it is a 'cool' thing to do, but once they are not so new people find
reasons to change. This makes for an interesting and dynamic market. I think
companies like Uber hope to dominate the market and keep doing better at it
through economies of scale, but passenger personal emotive preferences will
probably always leave room for alternatives.

------
physcab
One of the things I've always hated about Uber is that they are in expert in
euphemisms for wage cuts to consumers.

"February is a slow month! We're gonna make this deal sweet for you by
lowering prices 20%!"

"March Madness, 20% off all rides!"

"Summer Special, 20% off all rides!"

"Summer Special is here to stay! 20% off all rides is permanent!"

Now, lets not kid ourselves here. Uber is always going to get their cut. If
you talk to any Uber driver (I was one of them at one point in time), they'll
tell you their hourly wage has dropped from $30/hr to about $18/hr now. Still
not bad, but now factor in the longer hours, the maintenance fees, the city
fines...not so much a good deal anymore for the other side.

~~~
wutbrodo
> One of the things I've always hated about Uber is that they are in expert in
> euphemisms for wage cuts to consumers.

Oh please. Your average Lyft/Uber consumer has no clue about and no interest
in what the labor-vs-capital cost breakdown is of ANY product they buy. It's
really stretching the facts beyond all comprehension to say that calling it a
price cut is a "euphemism": the people they're talking to with those messages
only interact with the price and it's a price cut. No euphemisms involved.

Complaints about whether the wages for their drivers are too low are
completely fair game, but intellectual dishonesty and nonsense about how they
use "euphemisms" to hide wage cuts is just Grade-A bullshit.

------
downandout
Uber will lose a few principled customers when, for example, a tech blogger
blows something an executive said way out of proportion for their own
financial gain. However, the market as a whole simply doesn't care about an
executive that vents at a party, or that they engage in anti-competitive
behavior, or that the CEO is kind of a jerk.

People care that their ride shows up on time and gets them there safely. For
the most part with Uber, that happens. Like it or not, Uber has attained
critical mass and is here to stay.

------
Animats
Uber won't be using driverless cars. They'd have to buy and maintain them.
That would kill their "lightweight" business model.

Their "car financing" deal is awful for buyers. See
"[http://valleywag.gawker.com/uber-and-its-shady-partners-
are-...](http://valleywag.gawker.com/uber-and-its-shady-partners-are-pushing-
drivers-into-su-1649936785")

------
rpm33
I was expecting a more analytical analysis or a personal reason on why the OP
decided to quit Uber.I'm not undermining the articles in the press, but those
could happen to anyone. On keeping with the quality of HN I think we need to
have a more deeper understanding of how companies should function.

------
hyh1048576
Uber solves my problem and I think that's good. if Lyft ever expand to Beijing
I might want to try it.

In China Uber faces equally fierce competition, but they are doing well and
expanding. (They are No.3 in China I guess)

It's always nice to see more players get into this space.

------
msoad
I stopped using Uber about six months ago. Lyft is both cheaper and more fun.
Most of drivers I rode with were not full time driver. For me it's always fun
to meet new people who are doing all sort of different things in their life.

~~~
philwelch
Lyft sounds like it's more for extraverts--to me, the idea of sitting in the
front seat, fist-bumping the driver, and riding around in a car with a stupid
pink mustache on it sounds horrifying in much the same way that going on a
cruise ship or getting caught in a cheesy tourist trap sounds horrifying. I
think it's great that there are different services for different customers
though.

~~~
wutbrodo
> Lyft sounds like it's more for extraverts--to me, the idea of sitting in the
> front seat, fist-bumping the driver, and riding around in a car with a
> stupid pink mustache on it sounds horrifying in much the same way that going
> on a cruise ship or getting caught in a cheesy tourist trap sounds
> horrifying.

I've taken both Uber and Lyft dozens of times each over the last couple of
years, and I really don't understand the sharp distinction that people seem to
draw between their model of service. I get that their _marketing_ might differ
(apparently Lyft was marketed as the smiley friendly Uber originally), but my
experience has been literally identical: I sit in the seat I want to sit (I've
never even thought about it..) and if I feel talkative, I talk to the driver
and he/she always tends to talk back. If I don't feel talkative, Uber and Lyft
drivers alike will leave me alone.

They are 100% interchangeable services: just remember that when you get a ride
with either, you're consuming the actual service, not the advertising.

~~~
philwelch
As long as the stupid pink mustache is optional then maybe I'll give it a try.

------
siculars
I was just in SF on business and had never used Uber or Lyft before.
Obviously, voting with my dollars, I used Lyft and it was great. Lyft line was
fast, cheap and got me where I needed to go.

------
spacefight
Regarding its CEO: "When I tease him about his skyrocketing desirability, he
deflects with a wisecrack about women on demand: “Yeah, we call that Boob-
er.”"

What a big big douche.

------
leeber
If (keyword _if_ ) the CEO is as much of a douchebag as the media makes him
out to be, he likely won't continue to be CEO for much longer.

------
halayli
I see. So you check the CEO of all your apps before using them? You are
obviously swayed left and right by media.

Why do you trust your media sources so much?

------
finnn
Last time I tried Lyft it wouldn't let me login without a Facebook account.
Has that been fixed?

~~~
dnautics
You can now do it via email only. If you are often in heavily crowded areas
(like bars around 2am), I strongly recommend uploading a picture so the driver
can recognize you in the masses.

I can also get you a referral code :) pm me.

------
dalovar
Never used UBER. But from what i heard they don't seem friendly people

------
chatman
Just an assortment of links and rant. Nothing substantial in the article.

~~~
NamTaf
It's a summary of why they feels they're done with Uber, drawing attention to
publicised incidents. What substance did you expect, exactly?

------
onewaystreet
Did David quit using Facebook too?

------
general_failure
This is silly. Make decisions based on actual experiences rather than hearsay
in media.

It is honestly appalling that you are attributing thus decisions to some sort
of higher moral ground. If you are an american, that country wages war and
kills at will. IPhone are made at foxconn, most products are made in China who
gives a shit about our planet. I could go on. Did you quit all these already?

