
Why restaurants became so loud - curtis
https://www.vox.com/2018/4/18/17168504/restaurants-noise-levels-loud-decibels
======
brudgers
_But doing acoustics right, it turns out, can be really expensive._

Mitigating the kind of noise restaurants can create isn't expensive. There's
an off the shelf engineered solution that's been around for almost 70 years.
Acoustic ceiling tiles. Restaurants are loud because acoustic ceiling tiles
are out of fashion even though significantly less expensive than hard surfaces
and exposed building services+structure if painted.[1] Though carpeting and
upholstery help, acoustic treatment of the ceiling is the first line of noise
mitigation. [2]

[1]: Among the most costly finishes are services and structures fabricated to
aesthetic criteria.

[2]: The stylistic trend away from acoustic ceiling tile, carpets, and
upholstery further erodes acoustic privacy in open offices.

~~~
Anechoic
1\. Just adding absorption to the ceiling isn't enough - absorption on the
ceilings help kill ceiling reflections, but you still need to deal with
reflections from the floor, walls and various surfaces. Absorption works best
if it is distributed around around the room.

2\. In addition to being unattractive, another reason acoustic ceiling tiles
aren't popular is that they are difficult to clean compared to smooth, hard
surfaces. There are acoustic surface finishes from brands like Pyrok and BASWA
that can be cleaned with industrial cleaners, but those finishes are expensive
to install.

~~~
eru
Killing the reflections alone might help quite a lot: people might talk less
loud because of that.

~~~
stevehawk
this. loudness in restaurants/bars/etc is a feedback loop. It's loud so you
talk louder. It gets louder so other people talk louder. repeat.

~~~
chrisdhoover
Being slightly deaf in one ear, I’ll tend to speak louder and louder to
overcome the noise level in a restaurant to the point where I lose my voice.

------
anotherevan
My daughter has a condition called hyperacusis[1] defined as, "an abnormal
intolerance, a heightened sense of volume and physical discomfort from
ordinary, everyday sounds, which other people can tolerate well."

Because of this, I have become so aware of the sheer amount of noise in
everyday environments. I remember sitting in a nice, peaceful environment for
twenty minutes waiting for the local coffee shop to open. Come 8am they turned
on the loud, thumping music. Why, why, WHY?

[1] [http://www.dineenwestcottmoore.com.au/specialist-
services/hy...](http://www.dineenwestcottmoore.com.au/specialist-
services/hyperacusis-misophonia#what-is-hyperacusis)

~~~
rhacker
I wish there were more people that come to this conclusion. I can't stand busy
cities anymore because music bumpers in their cars, people playing TVs loudly
with their windows open, people HONKing their car to get the attention of
someone in a building, people clicking their cars, people opening and closing
their car doors FAR more frequently than necessary.

~~~
insickness
I live in NYC. I've wear earplugs almost everywhere I go.

------
mgleason_3
Just got back from Italy. We hadn't really noticed the noise levels while
there, but when we got back and ate out, we were like "OMG, what happened?" It
was almost impossible to have a conversation. And, it seems like all of the
newest restaurants are insanely loud. We went to Seasons 52 and a couple
ladies at a table next to us almost knocked us out of our seats especially
with their laughs and screams.

But, it's funny because so many Americans think Italians are loud. They're
much quieter when eating out. And other cultures, like the English and Dutch
talk basically in whispers.

And living in California where there's a law for everything. It's gotta be bad
for your hearing. Which brings me to another question. I wonder why CALOSHA
hasn't done anything about it?

Maybe the same reason that the fire department doesn't do anything about all
the locked doors with the sign above that says "These doors shall remain
unlocked during business hours". Apparently public servants are only required
enforce laws against the homeless and kids riding without helmets to junior
life guards ... and people who point out stuff they're supposed to be
doing...Uh oh.

~~~
JohnStrangeII
It's true, I live in Portugal where there are many tourists and Americans talk
by far the loudest in my experience. Mind you, they are not 'being loud', they
usually don't annoy at all and don't intend to, they just talk with louder
voices than anyone else. Particularly young American men (at 20 or so) talk
with loud booming voices that you can barely hear anywhere else.

I don't think there are any physiological reasons, it just seems to be a minor
cultural difference, but I wonder what the reasons are. The school system,
maybe? College?

Another small difference I've noticed over the years, and, again, I don't mean
this in any disrespectful way: Some if not many US Americans don't know how to
use knife and fork in the "European way". They don't know how to turn the fork
elegantly after cutting meat. Instead, they cut everything first and then use
the fork in the right hand for eating. This must have historical reasons,
maybe it also differs from state to state?

~~~
iguy
Re forks, I believe there was a historical difference in which the American
etiquette rule was that, after cutting food, you had to put the knife down,
move fork to right hand, and then eat. The English rule instead was to keep
the fork in the left hand both while cutting and for eating food. Neither
would rotate the fork to shovel position.

Edit: spent 10 minutes googling for the right Miss Manners link, but failed.
However I may be wrong on the shovel thing, that may actually be encouraged,
I'm not sure.

~~~
saltcured
I was definitely taught to eat this way, scolded if I didn't put the knife
down and return the fork to my right hand, along with when to abandon a piece
as inedible, rather than change from eater to butcher. I am pretty sure I was
also trained to use the fork to lift food and not to stab at it. It amuses me
to hear this called "shoveling" as the intent is to be less crude. I was
likewise trained to only dip a spoon away from me, which avoids any impression
of shoveling or bailing food towards the face. Also, numerous details about
the staging of bread and butter to a bread plate and when to break it by hand
and when to take a bite.

My casual adult practices and lost memories would definitely disappoint my
maternal ancestors... My mother was from a mixed family of blue-bloods from
the US northeast and German immigrants a couple generations removed. She
probably married "down" with my father, my inculcation thus diluted. She
didn't talk about it much, but I think there was some pressure to conform to
those blue blood ways within her extended family. I believe her sister was
involved in the Daughters of the American Revolution and was also put through
some sort of finishing school when young. I hear an odd echo of that aunt
whenever I hear Martha Stewart speak. I remember events with very formal table
settings when I was a small child, though I have forgotten many of the
procedural details for upwards of 5 utensils per place.

All of this is to say: it is a formal cultural practice at least in parts of
the US, not some absence of training. I would also believe it has some origins
in a display of disarming, much like a hand-shake and other rituals. I wonder
if anyone from the UK can comment on whether there are notable regional or
class-based practices and any that seem to match the American method described
here. I would expect there were British roots, though it might have died out.

More practically, the US method limits eating to a polite pace. Out of
context, European and East Asian eating methods look extremely crude to an
American eye, with people shoveling, lapping, and slurping food towards their
faces. In context, I of course realize they are culturally expected and my
American way would seem odd or perhaps even disdainful.

As an aside, I found it interesting to learn how Thai people use a fork and
spoon. They use a spoon in their right hand much like an American uses a fork,
except they may keep a fork ready in the left to assist in loading much like a
European uses their knife (but with hands reversed). But, if an item needs to
be cut, the spoon is suddenly a knife without any hand switching and the fork
may control the item as it does in American hands.

~~~
iguy
Cool thanks for the data point. I'm still mildly shocked to re-discover about
the shovelling, this was certainly not allowed... jokers would ask how you
were then supposed to eat peas on the convex side of the fork, but clearly any
cook worth their salt would have thought ahead & avoided this. (But the soup,
and bread, rules sound similar.)

It would indeed be interesting to know if there used to be regional variants
in the UK. Actually, do you have a feeling for whether this has strong
regional ties in the US, e.g. to Virginia vs Boston?

Obligatory book plug:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albion%27s_Seed](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albion%27s_Seed)
(as long as you have a decent tolerance academic writing) and
[http://www.colinwoodard.com/americannations.html](http://www.colinwoodard.com/americannations.html)
(some overlap, much less formal).

~~~
gowld
How does a cook prepare peas to be eaten with an upside-down fork? Or does
proper etiquette demand not eating tasty, healthy, cost-effective foods if
they interfere with making a fancy show of putting food in your mouth?

~~~
iguy
I thought the cook was supposed to make sure to serve gravy, or mashed
potatoes, or something like that to help.

(In case you circle back to this vital topic!)

------
ravenstine
This is part of the reason I don't go out nearly as much anymore. I got
convinced that I was losing my hearing, but it could also be that people are
just loud and getting louder, at least in America. After hearing myself say "I
can't hear you" and "what's that" over and over again, and resorting to buy
more alcohol so I could at least enjoy myself in the haze of speech, I
eventually just went "eh" and realized I just don't even care anymore.

Part of me thinks that the idea of a noisy atmosphere is to cause confusion,
and confused customers are probably better customers. If they're getting all
their enjoyment out of conversations, maybe they're less likely to buy more
food and drinks to "smooth over" and "lubricate" their interactions.

~~~
lev99
Different restaurants have different noise levels. You can choose to visit
quieter locations. Choosing the right restaurant for the occasion and company
is actually one of the most important things to get right in dining out.

~~~
nxc18
The noise level seems to be rising everywhere. I can't think of anything other
than fine dining where I live that isn't obnoxiously loud at all times. The
frustration is that you just don't have a choice these days.

I particularly despise live music (restaurant can't even try to adjust volume
there), which all of the establishments in my area are competing to have as
often as possible.

~~~
stinos
_The frustration is that you just don 't have a choice these days._

That's odd. Must be culture/country-dependent? Even in the relatively small
town closeby (100k inhabitants) there's a choice of multiple small and not too
expensive restaurants. Because of the size (max abot 20 to 30 people dining,
plus no loud music) it never gets very loud. There's also a choice of quite
expensive ones which, large or not, do take acoustics into account and hence
remain comfortable.

~~~
pbhjpbhj
If your town is all chain restaurants then it's possible they all have loud
music -- it limits talking and so reduces table occupation times, increasing
covers and hence profits. The game nowadays is basically make dining as
uncomfortable as possible but just this side of obnoxious; at least in any
place I can afford.

------
ironjunkie
Having moved from Europe, I can agree that people in California are incredibly
loud. Most conversations are normal, but people seem to always want to react
with exaggerated laughs, or exaggerated replies for some reasons. (yes, the
stereotypical "OOOH MY GOOOOOOOOOD")

~~~
s0rce
All the quiet people are taking advantage of the mountains and miles of miles
of quiet wilderness across the state. Leaving only loud people in the cities.
I have no proof to back this up.

~~~
ebikelaw
Oddly, when I go hiking in the forest what often happens is I can hear two
people, miles away, yapping at each other at the tops of their lungs.

~~~
twothamendment
I like the peace when hiking, except in bear country. I don't mind a loud
mouth in the group so we don't sneak up on things that cause injury to life
and limb.

~~~
torstenvl
A bear bell is still more pleasant than the sound of certain kinds of human
voices.

------
alkonaut
Making a room easy to conversate in is pretty easy and cheap (carpets,
curtains, ceiling tiles...). Making a room pretty is quite tricky and
expensive (design of materials, architecture, ...).

What’s really rare and ultra expensive is making both at once. Create a space
with clean surfaces, high ceilings, etc and _still_ manage acoustics.

That’s where restaurants fail. And I get that they fail because if
quiet+pretty is too expensive, then in the choice between quiet and pretty you
will do better going for pretty. Because as much as people complain about
noise, we never even visited the quiet place with fitted carpets and acoustic
tiles.

A related observation I made was that light really makes people loud. I
recently had breakfast in a hotel that made an unusual design choice: a very
dark candle lit space was used as the breakfast restaurant. Despite being full
of people, most were naturally whispering. But light is just another design
element. If you design with lots of light, you also get louder conversation
(at least that is my observation based on just a few data points).

------
markatkinson
I had to quit an exercise class to it essentially turning into a musical
torture chamber. They upgraded their speaker system to mega club levels with
base bins and massive hanging speakers.

The volume was so loud and the music so intense I actually had to stop at
times and block my ears. This sounds melodramatic but it is honestly
ridiculous.

After those few classes I went to I would have ringing in my ears for a few
hours, and my ears would feel very blocked. I also noticed I became a lot more
agitated and anxious afterwards.

~~~
DenisM
People operating the gym have probably gone deaf, hence the need for higher
volumes. Vicious cycle.

~~~
pbhjpbhj
DJs often seen to have hearing problems, I don't know why specific noise
limits aren't legally mandated.

There's a barracks that is literally a mile away from us in our city, they had
a party and the music was loud enough that it woke children in our street ...
that has to be damaging prole hearing who are close-by.

~~~
johnchristopher
In Europe/Belgium there is but as you mentioned it people don't realise the
dangers and basically think the government wants to prevent them from having
fun.

A lot of misinformation too (eg: "it's okay,above a certain threshold the ears
close themselves, that's why you feel a bit deaf for a day or two after a
concert).

------
joezydeco
We _just_ had a thread where a famous musician made a custom soundtrack for
his favorite restaurant:

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17604501](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17604501)

Grant Achatz went out and solicited playlist ideas from the public when
opening Roister in Chicago

[https://chicago.eater.com/2015/11/4/9670684/roister-music-
cr...](https://chicago.eater.com/2015/11/4/9670684/roister-music-
crowdsourcing)

It's simple. The music is now part of the decor. It must be heard at all
costs, so up goes the volume once people fill the place. Then it becomes a
positive feedback loop of people shouting to hear each other speak, volume
goes up again, and everyone goes deaf.

------
tonymet
Noise is worsening everywhere. Gas stations and checkout queues have obnoxious
ads. workplaces are built out of concrete warehouses, with open floorplans, so
even a quiet conversation turns into a raucous. If sugar was the new smoking
then noise is the new sugar.

do what I do and keep earplugs around your neck wherever you go. they're more
effective at reducing anxiety than any other remedy

~~~
BurningFrog
I wouldn't trust my ears on this.

Aging ears will tell you the world sounds worse each year.

~~~
jimmaswell
Shouldn't aging ears make the world quieter over time?

~~~
BurningFrog
If you're lucky...

But think tinnitus and inability to filter out background noise is often the
worse of it.

I'll admit to not have any deep knowledge. I do remain firmly opposed to
determining noise trend in society based on sampling your own aging ears!

------
css
I wish there was some sort of logitudinal data to demonstrate that the levels
are still climbing or are just louder now due to shifts in design trends.
There is not much data in this article aside from a few examples in New York
which are probably not representative of the rest of America. That said,
lately my partner and I (mid 20s) nearly always wear our hearphones [0] so we
can speak in restaurants.

[0]
[https://www.bose.com/en_us/products/wellness/conversation_en...](https://www.bose.com/en_us/products/wellness/conversation_enhancing_headphones/hearphones.html)

~~~
VygmraMGVl
Tom Sietsema, restaurant reviewer for the Washington Post Magazine, has been
including decibel readings in his restaurant reviews for the last 10 years.
I'm not sure if there's a summary of the change in those numbers over time or
not.

[0] [http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-
dyn/content/article/2008/04...](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-
dyn/content/article/2008/04/01/AR2008040102210.html)

~~~
dopeboy
Has anyone scraped his reviews yet and summarized? I'd be down to if no one
has done it yet.

------
benzible
Meyer Sound has a system called Constellation that as they put it "balances
the buzz of a lively room so patrons don’t have to raise their voices to
converse comfortably over the din, and allows the staff to control the sound
level as the room’s occupancy changes." Comal in Berkeley, where I live, was
the first to install it and I can attest to its effectiveness. More on this
here: [https://www.sfgate.com/business/article/High-tech-system-
let...](https://www.sfgate.com/business/article/High-tech-system-lets-
restaurant-set-noise-level-3554029.php)

------
chrisbennet
I didn’t see anyone comment on this so I’ll add my 2 cents: I think that
people think that if they complain that the noise is excessive that the venue
will respond. I haven’t found it to be true. The blasting volume of the
advertisements at the movie theater, the noisey restaurant, the freezing
temperature, etc. they are probably that way for a reason i.e. it’s not an
oversight they will correct now that you’ve brought it to their attention.

I’ve gone to restaurants and after being seated found the conditions
unpleasant enough that we get up, apologize (“it’s too cold/loud/etc”) and
leave.

------
martinpw
A few months ago I was in a pub in Cupertino (Duke of Edinburgh) and was
astounded by how quiet it was. All you could hear was a murmur of conversation
from nearby people. No loud music playing, no yelling or shouting. It was an
incredibly pleasant experience and made me realize how miserable most pubs and
restaurants are in comparison.

Maybe I just got lucky that particular evening, but it really stuck in my
memory as a good experience.

------
callumprentice
My family and I recently moved to the Los Angeles CA area and we've yet to
find a bar or restaurant that isn't incredibly loud.

It's almost like the local building codes, or the air or something else
conspires to make the acoustics in every single place we've tried completely
miserable - even when it's not very busy.

I'd love to discover why it seems to be the case.

~~~
saltcured
I'd say it is culture, not code. Twenty years ago, chains like California
Pizza Kitchen were archtypical as noisier than average with lots of metal,
glass, and other hard surfaces. It was already a cliche by then, but it wasn't
the only style successfully operating.

What I've seen over the decades is those others going out of business and
being replaced by either the glossy, clean style or the unfinished industrial
style. Nobody is using soft materials which remind too much of our fathers' or
grandfathers' banquet halls and family restaurants.

~~~
snoman
Those materials generally last longer and are easier to clean/maintain. As
margins are driven down by competition, so will the amount expended on the
decor.

Industrial design looks intentional (ie. Not necessarily good, but it looks
like it's supposed to be that way) and is inexpensive.

------
danepowell
I'm surprised the article didn't recommend the simplest solution for
individuals, which is to use ear plugs. Nowadays you can get versions that are
tiny and flesh-colored, i.e. nearly invisible. I felt a little dorky wearing
them at first, but they make a world of difference, and I've seen other people
start to wear them as well.

Obviously this doesn't exactly address the root of the problem, which is that
restaurants shouldn't require the kind of PPE that you'd have at a concert
venue.

~~~
massysett
A much simpler solution is to leave a restaurant if it's too loud. Alas this
article that talks about "how to fight back" omits these simple obvious
solutions.

~~~
stevesimmons
If people don't give precise feedback why they are leaving, nothing will
change.

Start by asking the staff to turn down the music. Then ask the manager. When
it is still too loud, tell the manager why on the way out. And then leave
negative reviews about the noise on Trip Advisor and Yelp...

------
duxup
There are a couple places I just won't go because of the noise.

I do go to a few places specifically because they are relatively quiet, even
when busy.

~~~
finaliteration
Most of the time when I’m out at a restaurant or cafe it’s not to listen to
loud music, but to sit down and have some quality time with one or a few
people. It completely ruins the experience for me when they have music playing
so. Damn. Loud. Especially in places packed with people where it’s already
loud due to everyone talking. There are certain places where the food and
service are good but I just won’t go because of the noise levels.

And this is coming from someone who loves heavy metal and goes to some pretty
loud concerts. But there’s a time and a place for it.

------
mrmondo
Although young, I've found this a real problem. Many places have terrible
acoustics and I totally disagree that making them better (maybe not great) is
expensive - there's many simple things you can do to make a huge difference.

What I struggle with is hearing the conversation with the person across the
table from me, what has actually recently helped is running a device with iOS
12 (beta) and using AirPods ([https://www.engadget.com/2018/06/05/live-listen-
ios-12-apple...](https://www.engadget.com/2018/06/05/live-listen-ios-12-apple-
airpods/)) - it actually works pretty damn well, I just feel like a bit of a
jerk wearing ear buds while dining / having a wine.

------
Alex3917
I started just carrying these around in my backpack:

[https://smile.amazon.com/EarPeace-Concert-Ear-Plugs-
Protecti...](https://smile.amazon.com/EarPeace-Concert-Ear-Plugs-
Protection/dp/B076VVP6CX/)

I always avoid loud restaurants and bars when given a choice, but if there is
a work event I need to go to then they are useful. It's annoying carrying them
around when I rarely use them, but it's better than giving yourself permanent
hearing damage just because you need to go to a (poorly organized) meetup or
whatever.

------
cyberferret
This has become my default selection criteria nowadays when choosing a cafe or
restaurant to enjoy a meal or meet friends/colleagues at. No more is it about
the food or coffee/tea quality. Noise levels are a critical factor. And this
is coming from someone who regularly plays loud guitar on stage (though I do
that with etymotic earplugs in nowadays).

I hate the modern "stark industrial" design trend in modern eating
establishments. All that concrete and bare wood just act as echo reflections
and harmonic cacophony.

------
marcus_holmes
Wetherspoons pubs in the UK don't play music, as a deliberate policy, and it's
one of the reasons they're so successful. It's great if you just want to drink
with your friends and have a conversation.

I hope more follow suit.

------
bogomipz
I feel that noise level risen across all retail and the service industry
outlets. It seems commonplace now to walk into clothing stores, drug stores or
even sometimes grocery stores and the music is way too loud.

I think it's part of a wider problem that either a) people might now require
too much stimulation or management has concerns that there's not enough
stimulation for their customers.

------
pasta
There is another thing the article doesn't mention: open kitchen design.

And loud machines like blenders and coffee machines.

~~~
mingabunga
agree, nothing worse than the barista banging whatever it is to remove the
coffee grounds. I know the noise is trying to create a busy buzz, but it's
ridiculous after a while. Like working in a tool shop.

------
antibland
As a misophonia sufferer, the acoustics of loud restaurants have, at times,
caused me to walk out and eat elsewhere. If I was with company when this urge
to leave happened, I would squirm and wince in my chair, toughing it out. The
worst offenders to my ears are piercing, sibilant s sounds and low, loud,
bassy voices. I circumvent 90% of my discomfort by wearing Airpods emitting a
low dose of white noise.

------
amelius
I usually bring a pair of bone conduction transducers, similar to the ones
found in the Google Glass product. They allow me to communicate with my dining
partner at a normal volume. The downside is that you hear more eating noises
(chewing, etc) but you get used to that.

~~~
atomical
What does that look like?

------
mirimir
Many of my friends and I do indeed hate loud restaurants. So we sometimes wear
discreet ear plugs, and pretend that we're hard of hearing. Actually, some of
us are, and they just turn off their hearing aids.

------
jshevek
I skimmed the article and didn't see this information: I'd like to know how
this breaks down by region of the country, by urban vs rural, and by age of
the patrons.

------
stevetodd
I always thought they designed them to be loud so that they could turn tables
over faster. More table turnover means more revenue with little increase in
cost.

------
pwaai
sometimes I wish I could just grab something to eat and perhaps an alcoholic
beverage _without having to shout_.

Also the tipping culture in North America really needs to go. It's
prohibitive. Just take a look at Asia. People eat out more because people are
not tipped. Of course North America is expensive. So why not create a livable
wage and happy staff? Oh right, food industry is cutt throat and low margins.

~~~
Hydraulix989
At least here in Seoul, groceries/produce are actually more expensive than
just ordering food delivery (there are many UberEATS-like competitors in Seoul
because everything is so dense) or going to a restaurant.

~~~
pwaai
yeah makes me wanna move there but the fine dust pollution and infrastructural
safety is a concern, a result of kamikaze style growth.

~~~
Hydraulix989
In SF, it's unaffordable housing, terrible transportation, and needles
everywhere. Pick your poison.

~~~
pwaai
huh? you just described vancouver. but the most expensive gas and shittiest
salary in north america.

------
stunt
Where is not loud anymore? It’s so noisy everywhere that people have to seek
their quiet moments at home which in modern lifestyle it means using an
smartphone and social networks where we can talk/hear without noise by
writing/reading. While we fairly blame smarphones and social networks for
changes in our families, I’m pretty sure noisy environment is one of the
escalators.

------
lev99
This article has no real data backing up their claim, although they are
probably correct.

------
enra
The main reason I like to host people over for food or drink. You can actually
properly discuss with people without shouting and distractions (waiters, other
people yelling, children etc)

------
Semaphor
I wonder if this is partly because for Americans eating out is more
commonplace? It's certainly a more rare thing in Germany, but afaik in the
rest of the EU as well (?).

------
learc83
Tolerance for loud noise decreases with age for physiological reasons.

It seems likely that this would explain a good bit of the anecdotal evidence
supporting this.

------
ahmetyas01
It will be a hit once someone have restaurant with be quite policy. :)

------
infectoid
I have been trying out SoundPrint to profile good and bad places to go for
those of us with a low tolerance for loud music while trying to socialise.

[https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/soundprint-find-a-quiet-
spot...](https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/soundprint-find-a-quiet-
spot/id971189322)

Not sure if it's available on Android but I"m sure there is something similar.

