
Tell HN: The 4-Hour (Profitable) Startup - How I Did It - guynamedloren
http://madebyloren.com/posts/4
======
amalcon
I don't know that this counts as a _startup_. This is not to take anything
away from it -- it's a brilliant idea, and well-executed; it has everything
that makes a good startup good. It just isn't one in sort of a purely
technical sense, in that it's a single product with a limited lifespan.

All in all, well done, though.

~~~
guynamedloren
You're right in that its not a startup. I'm just kind of having fun and
playing up a few responses from the original thread. The million dollar
question here is this: is it repeatable? If so, then we've got a startup.

~~~
rrival
Next step: Weather machine

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endlessvoid94
Thanks for the write up. I totally understand where you're coming from with
the "it just takes hard work and experience".

But that doesn't mean you should skimp on the details. The reason HN is so
awesome is because the contributors say things like "I was able to put some
money into reddit ads, I got a 5% conversion rate, and then called my friend
that works at company X and it turns out they were having a sale and I'd
worked with them before, so I ordered 500 tshirts priced at $6. With $5
shipping, I charged $15 and obtained a $4 margin on each shirt sold. So I made
$2k." These are the kinds of blog posts that are truly awesome and valuable,
and continue to be valuable over time.

Instead, you're turning this 4 hour startup into a series of articles and
trying to pump out as many pageviews as you can to your blog. This first post
had nothing your original HN post didn't.

Your idea was very good and you acted quickly. Congrats. I'm not trying to
bust balls, it's just a pet peeve of mine. Details would be cool.

EDIT: an example is in order. your "short answer" of "I've done it before" is
unhelpful for anyone aspiring to do anything remotely similar.

~~~
guynamedloren
I think you misunderstood the blog post. I don't give a shit about pageviews
on my blog. I know you guys care about the details (I get the same way when
hearing about other projects) and that's exactly what I'm going to deliver. In
all honesty, I would have written one long post packed full of details, but my
brain is running on empty right now and I just don't have it in me.
Admittedly, the first blog post was a bit weak. Like the post said, I haven't
slept in days. How well are your critical thinking skills after being awake
for almost 3 days straight? So instead of trying to write and analyse
everything in one big burst I'm splitting it up. But I'll get it all out as
soon as I can, before I forget anything.

And yes - stats and hard numbers are interesting, but I think there's more to
a good analysis than that. I want to help fellow hackers get better. If I told
you I had a 5% conversion rate, turned a $4 margin on each shirt and and sold
500 of them, would that help you in any way at all? I think not. That won't
bring you any closer to being successful. But if I told you that I optimized
the conversion rate by making a dead-simple bullshit-free site, a single shirt
design, and no distracting ads, then maybe you could learn a thing or two that
could help with future projects. These are the things that really matter.

~~~
endlessvoid94
Looking forward to it.

------
guynamedloren
Yesterday, I shared what has been deemed the "4-hour startup"
(<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2173155>), which was really just a
little project I threw together that happened to have a significant amount of
immediate success. There were lots of HN members asking about certain aspects
of the project, and I absolutely plan on giving back to the community by
sharing everything I did to bring the project to life. This is the first post
of several in which I'll explain my steps, methods, and thought processes. I
answered a bunch of questions in the original thread, but I think these posts
will make things much clearer. Hope they help somebody!

~~~
abyssknight
Thank you for following up on this! I read the original thread and pondered
all the crazy details. I want to apologize for all the flak you're catching
about minute details, of which most are meaningless, and wish you luck in your
current and future endeavors. Not sure why the trolls are out in force today,
but you've managed to do something many startups fail to: produce revenue.

------
HardyLeung
Loren, thanks for sharing, first and foremost. I appreciate this thread (and
the original) a lot.

I have a related idea and I want your opinion (and others fellow HNers')...
Say, you sell the T-shirt for $16 each including shipping. The twist is that
if there are over a fixed number of orders then everyone gets a discount, with
the earlier buyers get a deeper discount. i.e. the more people buy, the more
group discount, and the earlier you buy, the more discount. Do you think,
_based on this exercise and your experience_ , whether this will help make it
more viral? Or would it be too complicated and hence destroy the conversation
rate and virality?

~~~
zavulon
That sounds dangerously close to a pyramid/MLM scheme ...

~~~
HardyLeung
I am curious whether it is effective or not, but pyramid/MLM is not something
I'm worried about. Let's say the price schedule is well defined (and visible),
and that people are paying money in exchange for goods, with various level of
discount due to quantity and timeliness to encourage sales. In any case, from
a good<->evil scale, I don't think what I suggested is even in the league of
Zynga, Groupon, and Twitter promotion (tweet this for a chance...), let alone
MLM scam. Whether it could be effective or not, that's my question.

To clarify this is what it would look like, using customer #10, #212 (if
exists), and #1350 (if exists) as examples under different scenario

(1) #customers < 100

customer #10 pays $16

(2) 100 <= #customers < 1000

customer #10 pays $12, customer #212 pays $14

(3) 1000 < #customers

customer #10 pays $8, customer #212 pays $10, customer #1350 pays $12

The numbers are made up (the actual numbers may not make sense, so don't try
to find flaw about total profit based on these numbers). So basically
customers are rewarded for (1) being an early adopter, (2) propagating the
viral effect, and (3) having good taste.

Now that I think about it some more, this is similar to Amie Street for indie
music (didn't quite strike it big) <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amie_Street>

What do you think?

~~~
guynamedloren
Will it work? Who knows, but it sure sounds like it could. So here's my advice
to you: try it and share the results with us.

~~~
HardyLeung
I agree but was hoping to pick your brain. It is more of a thinking out loud.

------
synnik
I've sold dozens of t-shirts, ties, etc on both CafePress and Zazzle. But
until this article, I never realized that I could have spend an extra 3.5
hours on each of them and been a serial entrepreneur...

Which is not meant to simply be snarky and diminish his success. But this is
not a startup, and not just because of its simplicity.

It is not a startup because it is not a sustainable business. It is a quick
cash-in on a very temporary bit of pop culture. A startup it would be... if
you create a long-term, reliable income stream from such ideas.

------
BornInTheUSSR
How did you learn design?

~~~
jmtame
from his blog on his shirt design web site:

[http://beetnikaesthetics.com/blog/beetnik-tutorial-a-must-
re...](http://beetnikaesthetics.com/blog/beetnik-tutorial-a-must-read/)

click on the link to "25 must read t-shirt tutorials," you'll learn most
techniques for shirt design there.

~~~
BornInTheUSSR
Thanks for that, I am more curious about how he learned design in general
because of the kick-ass aesthetic sense in what he's shared of his work.

------
TamDenholm
Loren, I'm interested in the other posts about this, but I'm gunna forget to
check your blog again and I might miss it on HN. Get an RSS feed please.
Thanks.

~~~
guynamedloren
I know, I know, I know. Lots of requests for this so I'm looking into it right
now!

------
stretchwithme
Amazing how many snowpocalypse items there are out there.

<http://www.zazzle.com/snowpocalypse+gifts>

~~~
copycat
I just launched a clone site myself. Although, mine is snowmageddon. :)

~~~
guynamedloren
You should wait for my blog posts and take some notes. Your copy-cat site
would look better and sales would probably increase significantly.

~~~
copycat
You seem bitter for some reason. We're on HN. You should know that ideas will
get ran-through like a $2 whore.

Why did you post a "How I Did It" if you don't want people taking what you've
done and iterating?

By the way, I'm getting a lot of compliments about the site design (much of it
is from your site anyway!).

~~~
guynamedloren
I'm absolutely not bitter and I wasn't being sarcastic - if my response came
across as sarcastic, I apologize. I don't mind people finding inspiration in
my work and will gladly offer tips on design/code/etc, though I do think it
makes you look kind of stupid and unoriginal if you "reiterate" word-for-word.
That being said, the internet is almost free-reign as far as I'm concerned, so
have at it.

Just curious, why are you hiding behind an anonymous HN username and private
domain registration? Doesn't seem like you take very much pride in your work.

~~~
copycat
Sorry, I misunderstood your tone. I meant to change the copy but I posted the
site before doing so. It'll be changed soon.

I actually was worried about the backlash for being so blatant. I'm mostly a
lurker anyway. Honestly though, what do you think of the site design? I plan
on adding more shirts when appropriate (Canadian ISP fiasco, Egyption
revolution, etc.).

------
bmr
Thanks for being open. I think the most interesting part will be about how
many hits you got and what kind of conversion rate you were seeing.

Some of my personal curiosities: How many people abandoned the purchase when
confronted with the PayPal form? Do you think you could have been profitable
with paid customer acquisition methods (like geo-targeted display ads), or
would that have eaten into your profit too much?

------
kmfrk
I was wondering: especially considering your experience with selling T-shirt,
have you done enough to make sure people know that they get their shirts in
the right size? Or are you preparing to set aside a specific margin for return
cases?

It may just be me always having trouble with US sizes, but I'd imagine it to
be a common thing for apparel vendours.

------
clark-kent
How much profit did it make? Some numbers would be helpful.

------
mkramlich
It's a t-shirt not a startup. Given how much free or cheap infrastructural
stuff is out there, and with services like web-based custom t-shirt printing
services and PayPal, it's pretty easy and fast to do what he did. And it's not
like he hand-made the shirt, mainly the logo image and even that is just a few
words of text. I applaud him for seeing a money making opportunity and
executing on it, but at the same time it's bad form to call this a startup. At
most it's a dirt simple website and t-shirt, with a little glue and polish.

~~~
klbarry
Nothing wrong with using massive amounts of leverage for profit, it's
definitely entrepreneurship.

~~~
mkramlich
Agreed it's a form of entrepreneurship, and nothing wrong with using leverage
for profit. All good stuff! I just find that calling it a startup is like
calling a fish a shark. I mean, you could call a fish a shark, but it really
isn't one, despite some similarities (live in water, fins, swim around.) And
if the word fish meant the same as the word shark, there's no point having
those as two distinct words. A distinction without a difference is
existentially pointless.

------
u48998
You don't have RSS feed on your website?

~~~
guynamedloren
I have no idea how they work and I've never had the desire to use an RSS feed
myself. Maybe one day.

~~~
steveklabnik
Since you're doing a custom Rails app, may I point you at this:

[https://github.com/ryanb/railscasts/blob/master/app/controll...](https://github.com/ryanb/railscasts/blob/master/app/controllers/episodes_controller.rb#L12)

[https://github.com/ryanb/railscasts/blob/master/app/views/ep...](https://github.com/ryanb/railscasts/blob/master/app/views/episodes/index.rss.builder)

That's all you'd need to do. Oh, and if you submit your feed to
<http://feedburner.com/>, you can hand out their URL instead, and you'll get
stats and stuff.

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mkramlich
I just whipped up an image and uploaded to Zazzle. I'm going to submit an
article called, "My 4-Minute Profitable Startup and How I Did It."

(I didn't actually. Just pretend I did. I'm 100% Lean and Agile MVP Customer-
Driven Pivoting and yet flush with cash from a $100m Angel/VC convertible note
series C friends-and-family IPO Dutch auction fantasy in my dreams.)

------
DFectuoso
Is it really a startup? Really?

~~~
muhfuhkuh
"start-up - n. A business or an undertaking that has recently begun
operation."

~~~
stretchwithme
Think lemonade stand.

