
China's global kidnapping campaign may now be reaching inside U.S. borders - libpcap
http://foreignpolicy.com/2018/03/29/the-disappeared-china-renditions-kidnapping/
======
dandare
One of the most negative longterm consequence of the G. W. Bush era is the
erosion of high moral ground in human rights.

The US, and consequently the western democracies, lost the ability to
genuinely criticize the bad guys for doing bad things like torture or
kidnapping. Of course, the situation in China is not comparable to US, but we
lost the argument.

~~~
mac01021
You think the US was behaving morally through the 70s, 80s, and 90s?

~~~
dandare
Of course not, there are several examples of democratically elected
governments overthrown and replaced with brutal dictators, Tuskegee, MKUltra,
COINTELPRO, Iran Contra, Dark Alliance. But most of these fuckups were illegal
- or at least not officially sanctioned. That changed with 9/11 and Operation
Iraqi Freedom. Until then the US never publicly sanctioned torture and
kidnapping of individuals.

~~~
avar

        > most of these fuckups were illegal
        > - or at least not officially
        > sanctioned.
    

To people outside the US that are the subject of these campaigns this amounts
to nothing more than obscure inside baseball.

Unless something like war crime trials are held, or reparations are paid to
the relevant countries it doesn't matter in the least for the end result, or
for future such operations whether or not these operations were legal or
sanctioned. Nobody involved of any significance ever got charged or convicted,
and the US certainly didn't help reinstate the governments that had been
overthrown.

The only thing that happened post-9/11 was that the official narrative started
more closely resembling the realities on the ground.

~~~
dandare
That is a good point.

------
obblekk
The article notes a difference between Chinese "kidnappings" and US
"extraordinary rendition": it's different to threaten people's families back
in China as a tool of coercion to leave vs. physically kidnapping them.
However, in both cases the sovereignty of the hosting state is being violated.

I wonder how the US will react to having a competitor in that arena...

~~~
chaboud
There's a mild difference, in that China has been kidnapping people to take
them back to China, where they can be coerced mercilessly. Because we have
Constitutional protections in the US, we sent people to other countries...
where they could be coerced mercilessly.

Given the relatively recent poisonings of travelling North Koreans and former
Russian agents, I don't think that China is the first competitor in extra-
territorial clandestine human rights violations.

------
arenaninja
A lot of bad press for China lately:

* This article on renditions

* IP theft (e.g.: [https://www.ip-watch.org/2018/04/04/us-imprisons-chinese-sci...](https://www.ip-watch.org/2018/04/04/us-imprisons-chinese-scientist-theft-engineered-rice-seeds/))

* Drug peddling and money laundering ([http://www.sacbee.com/news/local/crime/article207911324.html](http://www.sacbee.com/news/local/crime/article207911324.html))

* Unfair trade practices and trade war (no link needed for this on HN)

And this only covers what happens outside of China.

~~~
volgo
Relevant:
[http://paulgraham.com/submarine.html](http://paulgraham.com/submarine.html)

~~~
common_
Actually, irrelevant. There would be more articles that are critical of China
if newspaper publishers weren't paranoid about losing a shot at a payday
buyout from a Chinese media firm.

~~~
thanksgiving
Are you sure? My uninformed guess would be to assume that if you're critical
and they can't just shut you down, they'll more likely pay you a reasonable
amount to shut up.

~~~
bostik
Sounds unlikely as that would only incentivise being openly (and vocally)
critical.

If you have the resources and the time to invest in a long game, scorched
earth strategy is likely going to be more effective.

------
hownottowrite
A few additional references:

"China: Families of Interpol Targets Harassed", Human Rights Watch
[https://www.hrw.org/news/2018/01/31/china-families-
interpol-...](https://www.hrw.org/news/2018/01/31/china-families-interpol-
targets-harassed)

The story of Guo Wengui "The Chinese Fugitive Living In A $67 Million
Manhattan Apartment", Forbes
[https://www.forbes.com/sites/nathanvardi/2017/05/19/the-
chin...](https://www.forbes.com/sites/nathanvardi/2017/05/19/the-chinese-
fugitive-living-in-a-67-million-manhattan-apartment/)

Side Note: Guo Wengui is a weird figure. He's maintained a very public profile
since coming to the US. He regularly posts about the Chinese government on
YouTube (some might even call them rants). Just a week or so past he filed a
lawsuit against Roger Stone for defamation.
[http://www.miaminewtimes.com/news/roger-stone-sued-for-
defam...](http://www.miaminewtimes.com/news/roger-stone-sued-for-defamation-
by-guo-wengui-10229139)

Edit: Story from the WSJ about a visit of Chinese state officials to Wengui's
apartment. "China’s Pursuit of Fugitive Businessman Guo Wengui Kicks Off
Manhattan Caper Worthy of Spy Thriller"
[https://archive.is/6Utc7](https://archive.is/6Utc7)

Edit 2: Another story from the Economist
[https://archive.is/2LSLt](https://archive.is/2LSLt) "China’s law-enforcers
are going global" quote below:

"Since 2016 Interpol has been headed by Meng Hongwei, who is also China’s
vice-minister of public security. That year alone China issued 612 red
notices. The worry is that China may have misrepresented its reasons for
seeking arrests abroad. Miles Kwok, also known as Guo Wengui, a businessman
who fled China in 2015, stands accused of bribery. But it was only when he was
poised to give an interview last summer in which he had threatened to expose
the misdeeds of the ruling elite that China asked Interpol to help secure his
arrest. When America refused to send him home, the Chinese government
requested a second red notice, accusing Mr Kwok of rape."

------
roenxi
> But Lee’s alleged recruitment may have also led Beijing’s operatives to
> U.S.-based Chinese nationals.

This part is particularly interesting. If China were to start running a
campaign of 'extreme pressure' that adds a dimension to the privacy debate
around Facebook and government statistics collection.

A powerful counterargument to 'If you've got nothing to hide'.

------
csense
Kidnapping may be relatively simple to pull off in dirt-poor third-world
countries and lawless war zones. But shouldn't it be harder to kidnap targets
in an industrialized country with a functioning local police force, effective
control of its borders / airspace, and well-organized, well-funded
counterintelligence agencies?

~~~
solarkraft
It would be. Luckily for them they're targeting the US.

~~~
hoodoof
More dry than the desert.

------
kombucha2
Extraordinary rendition[1] Reminds me a lot of that. Just Chinese-style. As
well as how the DPRK kidnapped people from Japan[2] and South Korea[3]. One of
the abductees from South Korea was a famous director, Shin Sang-ok[4] and his
wife. Kim Jong Il hoped he would revitalize northern cinema. It's a
fascinating story.

[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extraordinary_rendition](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extraordinary_rendition)
[2]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Korean_abductions_of_Jap...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Korean_abductions_of_Japanese_citizens)
[3]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Korean_abductions_of_Sou...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Korean_abductions_of_South_Koreans)
[4] [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shin_Sang-
ok](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shin_Sang-ok)

------
ezVoodoo
Let's count the number of people assassinated by the Chinese government and
the CIA, shall we?

~~~
dang
Please don't use HN for national flamewars. They're destructive of the site
and off topic here.

[https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html](https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html)

