
Chinese military entering Shenzen, just across the border with Hong Kong - janantala
https://twitter.com/AlexandreKrausz/status/1160947525442056193
======
hjanssen
This is really bad and definitely triggers memorys of the Tiananmen massacre.
I'm very interested how the rest of the world is going to react to these
developments considering the position of China only got stronger since the
Tinanmen situation. I recognized that the reaction of e.g. Germany was
considerably weaker to the HK protests than e.g. the Arab Spring protests, but
I guess we just have to wait and see.

Edit: Grammar

~~~
empath75
I honestly don’t think that China will do anything like that again. Because of
how their economy is so intertwined with the rest of the world, they can’t
afford another brutal crackdown.

I am sure they will go in, but I’m also sure they have more sophisticated
crowd control methods available to them.

~~~
wbl
Remember Prince Bonesaw? Saudi Arabia is a laughingstock of a country that
can't do anything for itself, and yet we didn't do anything about them
murdering a reporter with a green card.

~~~
joelx
Nations that are free today will not be free tomorrow. People today have been
too afraid to stand up to dictators, and dictators are encroaching everywhere.

------
dep_b
As incomes rise in China people will demand other things from the government
than food, shelter and a comfortable middle class life. Hong Kong was ahead of
the rest of China since they have been living pretty liberal under UK rule and
were more prosperous. Whatever they do in Hong Kong now will not stop from
things happening all over China at a given point.

~~~
intopieces
This was the theory during the Clinton administration and, to be blunt, that
theory has been wrong.

The Chinese people do not see risking growth disruption as worth what the west
considers freedom. The west has fundamentally failed to make that case to them
and even now western democracy is on the decline.

Please, please do not take a free China for granted. Do not think that change
— that democracy and freedom — is inevitable. It’s not.

~~~
atupis
Thing is that China is nearing point where it has to let creative destruction
happen to grow more and it is very hard to achieve under current model.

~~~
philipov
Citation please

~~~
atupis
[https://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/01/opinion/sunday/friedman-w...](https://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/01/opinion/sunday/friedman-
why-nations-fail.html) and particulary last chapter of Why Nations Fail.

------
Tharkun
Sigh. Hopefully we won't get a repeat of the Tiananmen square massacre. I've
not seen any nations speak out about the HK protests. Unlike, say, when many
expressed support for the Arab Spring.

~~~
A2017U1
How much money did private enterprise make from the Arab Spring? Hundred
billion or so?

To pretend like it was a moral issue is insane. Most people don't care in the
slightest in democratic countries. Virtually every country involved in sending
troops couldn't point to it on a map nor talk about the region with any sort
of knowledge. We walked in and replaced Hussein with ISIS. It will go down as
21st century Vietnam.

China has nukes. Absolutely nothing will happen regardless, just like 30 years
ago. Perhaps some more outrage on twitter I guess?

~~~
gurkendoktor
> China has nukes. Absolutely nothing will happen

China has shown (again) in their treatment of Hong Kong that they don't care
about past agreements. The least that anyone can do, even in the presence of
nukes, is to get their business out of China, and that is already happening to
some degree. And of course be welcoming to people who choose to emigrate from
Hong Kong.

~~~
krageon
China was always going to annex Hong Kong eventually, this is something almost
everyone with any interest in this particular situation has known for many
years.

Spinning that particular situation in a reason to boycott a country (and
replace it with what? India isn't exactly a paragon of virtue and neither is
the US, and let us never speak of the stain that is Russia) is a strange
mental place to go to.

~~~
StreamBright
> China was always going to annex Hong Kong eventually,

You cannot annex your own territory.

~~~
StreamBright
HN turned into a website where quoting facts of Wikipedia gets you downvotes.
I would have never thought that this site will reach this low.

~~~
ksec
My guess is that you are quoting it and arguing that statement out of context.
And within that context, what you wrote, even though it is a fact in its own
right, is wrong according to the original post.

And your post are still visible. Which suggest it is only a minor downvote.

------
SilkRoadie
I might be misinformed but it looks to me like a lot of protests in Hong Kong
are state orchestrated.

The escalation in protests seemed very sharp. The ransacking of parliament
appeared to have been allowed. There was no police presence at all. Almost as
if they were being purposefully held back.

I might just have my tin foil hat on. I wouldn't be surprised though if
Chinese groups have escalated mostly peaceful protests while police have been
held back to create a situation which requires full Chinese state involvement.

~~~
mc32
From what I’ve read (which obviously is removed from the “ground” and has
bias) China has inserted agent provocateurs, but haven’t coöpted the movement
to that degree. It appears to be mostly grass roots though some of the lighter
moderates evaporating leaving the moderates and hard core protesters to fight
on which results in heavier tactics.

~~~
krageon
Assuming that a powerful nation has not deeply owned every large-scale protest
is in my experience extremely naive. Either the protest has no teeth or it's
penetrated all the way to the top with either government agents or extensive
surveillance. This means that action outside of what the government feels like
dealing with means arrests (no matter how temporary) and that any action that
is taken means that the government does not care or will use it with an
ulterior agenda.

It sort of bothers me how conspiracy theorist this sounds, but I know for a
fact that this is the case.

~~~
dmd
If you really know this for a fact, you should contact
[https://www.nytimes.com/tips](https://www.nytimes.com/tips)

But I'm guessing by 'fact' you mean 'I'm very convinced of my own opinions'.

~~~
krageon
I don't live in the United States, I do know it for a fact and I will not
sabotage my own life or those of the people I care about just because you
would love to read some drama in the papers. The net result of that would be
that in a month or two nobody would remember it, and lives would still be
ruined.

It is almost mystifyingly selfish of you to ask this of me, especially when
you souse it with your fairly hostile closing remark.

------
hindsightbias
“HKU poll: Only 3.1% of young Hongkongers identify as Chinese, marking 20 year
low“

[https://www.hongkongfp.com/2017/06/21/hku-poll-3-1-young-
hon...](https://www.hongkongfp.com/2017/06/21/hku-poll-3-1-young-hongkongers-
identify-chinese-marking-20-year-low/)

Nationalism will not be tolerated.

------
ackbar03
Oh man they absolutely cannot come into Hong Kong, it would be a totally
stupid move. Honestly in the grand scheme of things they can afford for Hong
Kong to just descend into chaos and completely collapse economically or
whatever. The minute they send troops over the whole picture changes and
everyone loses

~~~
JumpCrisscross
> _they absolutely cannot come into Hong Kong, it would be a totally stupid
> move_

Strategically, for China? Yes. Politically, for Xi? Maybe not. Remember that
Xi is a dictator. Moves that boost him in the short term at China’s long-term
expense are on the board.

~~~
loyukfai
Xi is very much a dictator, but he also needs money to maintain his
dictatorship. HK for all its faults and bads is still quite important to the
Chinese economy.

That's why we haven't become Xinjiang, IMO.

~~~
ackbar03
I think hks importance is extremely arguable. Hks gdp is barely 3 percent of
china's with a stalling growth rate. I've worked in both Shanghai and Hong
Kong and I can say a lot of the large cities are much much nicer in China now.
You also have a lot things like hackathons and events where you see lots of
young creative people who really want to make things. In Hong Kong the culture
is more towards looking good in a suit and networking, a side effect of the
dominance of financial industry.

Personally I think that ship has long sailed and it's not particularly
anyone's fault.

~~~
whoevercares
Let’s face it. Hong Kong is effectively a backdoor. It’s a great place for
almost anyone rich enough to do money laundering like stuff. For example, when
mainland tightened its currency exchange control, people still transfer money
via HK in someway. It’s sometimes disgusting

~~~
ackbar03
Yes I agree. That's partly why for me, despite living in Hong Kong and having
worked in finance I don't really mind if some of these people get washed out
in the process.

~~~
greedo
That's a horrible metaphor...

------
chroem-
We should have applied the same policy of containment to China, that was used
against the Soviet Union. But instead we let our greed get in the way, and now
we've created an (arguably) evil superpower.

~~~
jonathanyc
How’s Russia working out for us and for the Russian people these days? Or
Belarus, or Poland?

~~~
adventured
It's working out fine for 'us,' mostly. Putin has exhausted his only card
though, the energy card, which was used to give Russia's economy a jump; now
there's no follow-up maneuver. The Russian people have of course started to
take notice of that fact. Russia is an increasingly inconsequential regional
power, with a relatively weak and small economy (now smaller than Canada;
about to be smaller than Australia). Generally they pose zero threat to the US
and Western Europe in their present form; at least so long as NATO remains
intact. Their military is weak and broken, they can't afford to maintain it
properly - much less upgrade it - so they've shifted to magic scary super
weapon propaganda and PR desperation.

It's Belarus and Ukraine primarily at issue, not Poland.

Poland is doing great overall, they've almost entirely left Russia's orbit in
terms of overt influence. Their economic output per capita is beginning to
embarrass Russia, it's now 50% higher than Russia's figure (that gap will
increase). Poland is starting to push into the upper tier of the middle income
nations, with a real shot at leaving that group and moving into the upper
economic tier in the next two decades, along with the Baltic states.

Russia can't do much to countries like Poland, the Baltics or eg Romania. They
know that of course. They can and will persistently, aggressively mess with
Belarus (forced union) and Ukraine (constantly seek to destabilize & split it)
however. In Russia's ideal world, they keep those two nations impoverished
beneath Russia's economic level, so that Russia can perpetually lord over
them; then given enough time figure out a way to de facto annex all or a lot
of their territory. The people running Russia - including Putin - believe that
is all really Russian territory.

~~~
fggvgg
Poland’s economy is highly subsidized by the German, French and Italian
taxpayers, the only significant payers to the EU budget.

~~~
ChuckNorris89
The countries you mentioned contribute to the EU budget, not Poland's economy.

~~~
netsharc
Isn't that a matter of semantics.. if a Polish highway being built has a sign
next to it that says it is 20% sponsored by the EU, doesn't that mean 1 out of
every 5 Zloty the roadbuilder is earning comes from the EU?

~~~
woah
And Alabama is heavily subsidized by New York City. So what?

~~~
ocschwar
Well, Poland and Alabama both have Putin's malicious attention when it comes
to political interference.

------
CapricornNoble
When this guy says "military", we need some specificity. Is this the People's
Liberation Army, or the People's Armed Police? They may look the same on the
surface but they are very very different organizations with different uses and
implications. Stuff I've already read suggests the PAP is in Shenzhen on
standby, not the PLA.

[http://www.scmp.com/news/china/diplomacy-
defence/article/212...](http://www.scmp.com/news/china/diplomacy-
defence/article/2125880/china-brings-peoples-armed-police-under-control-top)

[https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2019-08-12/global-times-
shows...](https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2019-08-12/global-times-shows-
dramatic-video-chinese-army-preparing-hong-kong-invasion)

------
JudasGoat
Agitators will be sent in to commit acts that justify a military takeover.
It's a familiar plot.

------
chewz
West wasn't ready to die for Danzig in 1939 and isn't ready to die for Hong-
Kong in 2019.

The result could be similar.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Why_Die_for_Danzig%3F](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Why_Die_for_Danzig%3F)

~~~
StreamBright
This is a bit far fetched. Hongkong is part of China, it has been part of it
for a long time. UK rule was a blip in that and it was a 99 years lease
anyways.

[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Hong_Kong](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Hong_Kong)

~~~
chewz
Still it makes me a little angry, we have 8 milion nice, young pro-democratic
protesters in Hong-Kong facing communist tanks and we aren't even going to
drop a single rocket on Beijing?

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeasement](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeasement)

~~~
rolltiide
The constitution of Hong Kong known as the "basic law" allows for Beijing's
military action. Corresponding mainland Chinese law allows for military action
in Hong Kong when things seem unmanageable for the city's government. Defacing
state property and paralyzing the airport seem to be Exhibit A and B?

There isn't any framework where this would be seen as illegal or illegitimate.

Even under a foreign power's "national security interests", Hong Kong is
pretty much an administrative convenience to asian markets than an outlier, as
China knows how to run markets these days and has little qualms about
capitalist functions, so it is very unlikely that major market disruptions
would happen from even the most extreme scenarios imagined here. As such
"rockets on Beijing" let alone any foreign diplomatic recognition of these
internal issues would be very counterproductive.

In this case for whats productive, use this analogy: think of it more like a
theorist in Ohio wondering if DC is causing a false flag attempt during a
period of unrest in a US state or dependent territory. That theorist is never
suggesting that a neighboring or powerful country intervene, while still being
passionate about the idea that the unrest is being propelled in order to
justify state control. Might be true, might not, doesn't matter, but still the
only outlet to express discontent than suggesting a third party drop rockets
on the capital!

~~~
pimmen
> There isn't any framework where this would be seen as illegal or
> illegitimate.

Doing it just to effectively end "One China, two systems" would absolutely be
breaking a teaty. Which is illegal.

~~~
BlueonMount
HK’s security is fundamentally derived from Chinese military power. Mainland
soldiers are regularly stationed in HK. This is part of what One China means.

~~~
pimmen
Yes, but if the populations want ”One China, two systems” enforced and the PLA
stops that by force, it’s not really about the security of Hong Kong anymore.
It’s using the military to subjugate its population rather than protecting
them.

------
twhitmore
Everybody, now is the time to email your local Chinese embassy. Carrie Lam,
the top HK politician. Michael Tien and Ronnie Wong, leading pro-establishment
politicians.

Let them know dialogue & political solutions are needed, violence is not
acceptable, and that PEOPLE ARE WATCHING AND CARE.

Your voice can make a difference to the political calculus. But time is very
short. You must act now.

------
nobodyandproud
Cooler heads will say this is a show and a first warning to HK.

~~~
markus_zhang
Indeed. And a warning more to the HK overlords than to the protesters.

------
hsnewman
I'm praying for those poor people, it looks like they will have their freedom
taken soon.

------
timwaagh
China got away with it once but escalation is in principle a sign of weak
government. Compare a nation like France which mostly waited it out.

~~~
nnx
Don’t think France “mostly waited it out” when there has been more injured
yellow vests than HKers so far: 2 more or less connected deaths, 1 person lost
lower arm, and at least 24 lost an eye, including one of the most pacific
yellow vest leader Jerome Rodrigues
[https://www.cnn.com/2019/07/14/europe/france-bastille-day-
in...](https://www.cnn.com/2019/07/14/europe/france-bastille-day-injured-
yellow-vests-intl/index.html)

In many ways, french police did repress protesters in a much more brutal way
than HK police has done so far. Of course having PLA in the city would be a
different story however...

~~~
wtdata
That's a very biased take on what happened in France.

The protesters were burning cars and destroying public and private property to
vast extents, besides throwing Molotov cocktails at the police.

The yellow vests went way, way beyond their right to protest.

[https://www.aa.com.tr/en/europe/-yellow-vest-protests-
grow-v...](https://www.aa.com.tr/en/europe/-yellow-vest-protests-grow-violent-
in-france/1327559)

[https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/ryanhatesthis/yellow-
ve...](https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/ryanhatesthis/yellow-vests-
facebook-live)

[https://www.bbc.com/news/world-
europe-47666245](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-47666245)

~~~
yyhhsj0521
Isn't this happening in Hong Kong as well? Destroying properties, and
especially Molotov cocktails.

~~~
loyukfai
Just curious, where did you get these ideas?

~~~
thankswell
[https://www.dimsumdaily.hk/police-officer-on-fire-after-
bein...](https://www.dimsumdaily.hk/police-officer-on-fire-after-being-hit-by-
molotov-cocktail-in-sham-shui-po/)

~~~
loyukfai
Dimsum Daily is not exactly a good source for reliable news...

There is indeed quite a lot of violence from both sides, but no, no police
officer has been set on fire.

~~~
thankswell
The only way to claim "no police officer has been set on fire" is providing
evidences that those pictures and videos are fake. Btw, there's no such thing
as "source of reliable news", unbiased media is a impossibility theory.

~~~
loyukfai
[https://www.google.com/search?q=Hong+Kong+police+set+on+fire](https://www.google.com/search?q=Hong+Kong+police+set+on+fire)

------
heraclius
The reason to send in the PLA would be to increase the level of violence, but
there’s no reason to risk the backlash of sending them in when the HK police
can do the job too—even if the Central People’s Government were to suddenly
decide that live ammunition is needed, they would still be able to rely on the
HK police. The deployment of troops is therefore almost certainly, as was
noted in the SCMP, a statement of intent as opposed to a sign that there will
be a deployment of troops.

~~~
rdtsc
They think the HK police might not follow orders and shoot their own
neighbors, friends and family.

An army division from a different region, properly instructed (brainwashed)
can do “wonders” in terms of viciousness and brutally.

------
fasthandle
Hong Kong reddit has the top coverage of HK.

~~~
decoyworker
Live thread that I've been following:
[https://old.reddit.com/live/133sixros7tu5/](https://old.reddit.com/live/133sixros7tu5/)

------
BlueonMount
I’m an ordinary HK resident, software engineer, living in Kowloon and work in
HK island. I see the protesters breaking laws, damaging properties,
obstructing traffic, causing the entire society to grind to halt. Their
actions are not unlike mobs and they disrupt social order almost everywhere. I
don’t know under what circumstances mainland military can get involved, but I
hope when they do, law and order can be restored in my city.

~~~
Epskampie
I don’t want to doubt your words without reason, but can you offer any proof
that you are who you say, and not someone paid to sway opinions?

~~~
BlueonMount
You can ask me things someone like me is supposed to know, see if I pass your
Turing test.

~~~
Epskampie
I’ve been thinking, but it’s hard for me to come up with questions like that,
not being from China/HK myself.

Let me ask you this: do you feel the protestors are trying to protect your
freedoms, or give you new ones?

------
varren
Politics on HN... well, was hoping to see here discussion of protesters
gadgets or government tools or some sophisticated communication protocols /
equipment / organisation. Something about protesters use of lasers in an
attempt to block riot police at Hong Kong airport

------
apexalpha
What's with the apologists in here saying the US is behind it all and copying
other Chinese talking points?

------
xfs
Actual news:
[https://www.scmp.com/news/china/society/article/3022479/chin...](https://www.scmp.com/news/china/society/article/3022479/chinese-
armed-police-truck-convoy-rolls-city-near-hong-kong)

~~~
teknologist
SCMP has become a CCP mouthpiece after Jack Ma bought it.

~~~
loyukfai
Very much untrue, CCTV, People's Daily, Global Times, now those are CCP
mouthpieces.

That being said, one is not being unreasonable to suspect their level of
editorial independence could be influenced.

~~~
teknologist
The "whataboutism" of naming other media outlets doesn't really help your
argument here.

You only just have to open the SCMP front page to find them calling military
deployments in a stadium near Hong Kong "drills", citing anonymous sources
that say "they are not of concern" and quoting liberally from anonymous
posters on Chinese message boards spouting hate.

~~~
loyukfai
I just did and I couldn't find the thing you mentioned, mind to share the
link?

------
tus88
The title makes it sound like Shenzen is not part of China. You don't "enter"
part of your own country.

~~~
gerbilly
If you are a military force, there absolutely is a concept of entering your
own territory, going back to the Rubicon.

When a country deploys it's own troops internally, as opposed to the police,
it's often a forerunner to martial law or civil war.

~~~
tus88
I would have been happy with deployed.

~~~
RobertKerans
Enter implies attacking force, deployed does not, so deployed is not correct
in the context of the article.

------
pimmen
What I don't understand is the sentiment that if the people of Hong Kong's
rights are suppressed, they should just protest in a way that's tidy, quiet
and convenient for the government. That's not how Sun Yat Sen rolled, for
example.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xinhai_Revolution](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xinhai_Revolution)

------
hmx48
Extremely disturbing

------
partiallypro
Trump just blinked this morning on his China tariffs; if that's not a green
light for the Chinese military to act on Hong Kong, I don't know what is.

------
La-ang
It's on

------
nathanhammond
I'm currently in Hong Kong and have been here since before the protests began.
This saber-rattling has been ongoing. This is an escalation, certainly, but it
is not a new message being sent to Hong Kong and it falls mostly on deaf ears.
Over the past approximately two months:

\- July 2019: With the pretense of preparation for the Chinese 70th
anniversary celebrations, there were reportedly 190,000 police officers in
Zhanjiang. [1]

\- July 31, 2019: PLA releases a propaganda video showing military practicing
riot drills. Notably it has English subtitles implying its target audience.
[2]

\- August 1, 2019: Approximately 12,000 police participated in anti-riot
drills in Shenzhen. [3]

\- August 13, 2019: Military hardware shown moving into Shenzhen. [4]

Everybody in Hong Kong already knows that their way of life is lost in the
event that China gets involved. The Hongkonger's daily press conference said
as much. [5] If either of the PLA or Shenzhen police become involved the
outcome is predetermined, thus the relatively nihilistic mood. A local
Hongkonger wrote this article for Dissent Magazine which also adds additional
color. [6]

Responding to other comments, the fears of a Tiananmen Square type incident
are likely unfounded given the prevalence of video from all of the ongoing
protests. State Media Propaganda does not work when presented to a global
audience. Any event of that nature would presumably be one economic gamble too
far for the CCP.

 __*

[1]
[https://www.scmp.com/news/china/military/article/3020784/chi...](https://www.scmp.com/news/china/military/article/3020784/china-
mobilises-190000-police-officers-70th-anniversary) [2]
[https://www.scmp.com/video/hong-kong/3020985/chinese-
armys-h...](https://www.scmp.com/video/hong-kong/3020985/chinese-armys-hong-
kong-garrison-releases-video-showing-anti-riot-drills) [3]
[https://www.scmp.com/news/china/military/article/3021597/chi...](https://www.scmp.com/news/china/military/article/3021597/chinese-
police-mass-12000-anti-riot-officers-shenzhen-drill) [4]
[https://www.scmp.com/news/china/society/article/3022479/chin...](https://www.scmp.com/news/china/society/article/3022479/chinese-
armed-police-truck-convoy-rolls-city-near-hong-kong) [5]
[https://twitter.com/anti_elab/status/1161064639515389952](https://twitter.com/anti_elab/status/1161064639515389952)
[6] [https://www.dissentmagazine.org/online_articles/hong-
kongs-f...](https://www.dissentmagazine.org/online_articles/hong-kongs-fight-
for-life)

------
enterx
looks like censorship.

------
trilila
Strange how putrid governments find members of society happy to oppress other
members of the society. Such as those soldiers happily waiting to execute
orders against the freedoms of their fellow citizens.

~~~
MaximumYComb
I'm assuming you're privileged enough to have never been an enlisted soldier
in a military? This isn't hordes of men clamouring to "oppress" someone. Often
people are conscripted or come from such a poor background that enlistment
helps their life significantly.

After the first 6 months in the military, you'll have been broken enough to
have lost a lot of sense of individuality and are willing to just blindly
follow orders. After your initial training, you're likely dumped into an
established unit where you are at the very bottom of the totem pole. Until
about 20 years ago in western militaries, you'd experience physical violence
on the first day of your first posting into a "real" unit just to show you
your place. I'm assuming this still happens in China. If there are soldiers in
those trucks it is very likely they haven't been told a single thing about
their mission.

It's very easy to live your comfortable life and talk about how evil the
individual soldiers are but in reality, the troops holding the rifles on the
ground are simply a tool of those higher.

~~~
simonh
Most of those troops will be from rural regions. Everything they know about
the wider world is told to them by state media and their commanders.

~~~
kzrdude
Can we say the same of the soldiers the US sent to Iraq?

~~~
AnimalMuppet
No. First, the US has considerably more media freedom, so they had at least
the potential to access non-government-narrative sources. Second, the US has a
volunteer army, not a conscript one.

------
adamnemecek
How can I get involved?

------
apo
The only thing worse for an authoritarian regime than making a show of force
and following up on it is to make the show of force and not follow up on it.

------
onetimemanytime
Sadly the Chinese govt plays no games. See Tienanmen, Tibet or million+
Muslims in concentration camps.

Here they are "just restoring law and order" against vandals, a critical role
of any government, so very few critics will be heard.

------
wtdata
Some major news networks are covering the event as well:

[https://www.businessinsider.com/videos-chinese-military-
vehi...](https://www.businessinsider.com/videos-chinese-military-vehicles-
gather-in-shenzen-hong-kong-protests-2019-8)

[https://www.cnbc.com/2019/08/13/hong-kong-protests-china-
med...](https://www.cnbc.com/2019/08/13/hong-kong-protests-china-media-says-
military-assembles-nearby.html)

P.S.: On a side note, it's quite sickening to see how much American society is
divided, that even the original Twitter thread became flooded with people
talking about Trump and blaming him for what is happening in Hong Kong. It is
absolutely ridiculous to an outsider to see this behavior.

------
Quiark
~~This is basically fake news, or a hoax, a very popular one. The videos are
not current.~~

EDIT: It is true China is doing some military performance in SZ to scare off
the protesters. But the PLA has not entered HK as that would seem unwise.

What is happening instead is Chinese police or army likely working inside the
HK police force.

~~~
jckt
I actually thought that the whole "mainland infiltrates HK police" conspiracy
was just PRC-phobia (which is a real problem in HK when it becomes xenophobic,
sadly) but there's actually been evidence of it (albeit not much). If you're
interested you can find videos of a riot policeman saying 「退後一點」 to protesters
(and other weird sentences), which is _extremely_ awkward in Cantonese
(instead Cantonese would be 「褪後啲」 or something, sounds totally different),
especially if you're in an intense situation.

------
Tigah_pawszzz
Just a side note:

1\. Hong Kong, at least on paper, is ruled by a governing entity elected by
Hong Kong people. Mainland party hasn’t acted yet because, again, on paper,
this is a Hong Kong issue. But things could get messy when Hong Kong
government cries for help

2\. The protest started when a bill that many feared could be used to target
and deport anti-China citizens. Hong Kong government was quick to withdrawn
and eventually kill that bill but the protest got bigger regardless as they
see the government is too pro-China

3\. Many protesters are now actively attacking police force even if
unprovoked. Some even send threats to police officer’s families whilst some
caught getting cash handed to them for taking part in protests by foreigners

4\. Sentiment in mainland China is mostly against these protests as they see
Hong Kong benefits financially a lot from China since its return, and Hong
Kong’s real issue is its ever increasing wealth gap

Getting back to the news itself, this is indeed very alarming.

~~~
JulianMorrison
The pictures we're seeing is of cops beating, rubber-shooting and tear-gassing
protesters in tight spaces without obvious provocation.

~~~
rruieews
Here are videos of protestors beating cops and other innocent bystanders,

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rd1nW7Oa3mc](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rd1nW7Oa3mc)

~~~
ptx
The video looks consistent with that I've heard reported elsewhere: Protestors
are not attacking people, only symbols of the Chinese government. The violence
that has been perpetrated has been directed towards the protestors, e.g. the
knife attack on a protestor, the fireworks shot at protestors (seen in the
video) and various excesses of the police.

------
ThinkBeat
Whoever is behind the current protests in Hong Kong. (possibly US possibly
China, perhaps it has changed). is forcing China to act in a brutal manner.

They cannot have this form of anarchy and disturbance.

Actually, the US would have acted harshly already if it was on US soil. I
can't think of any protesters invading congress and not getting shot at.
Stopping traffic at an airport? Yeah that is not going to happen for very
long.

China must act. Any nation would act at this point.

It will come with much suffering and it is almost completely unnecessary. The
protesters took it way too far. It will also make China look bad on the
international stage, especially with the Us controlling the western narrative.

Perhaps still China can find an alternative approach. I hope so.

~~~
chadcmulligan
> The protesters took it way too far.

Why do you say this? HK is still a nominally free society and protest is their
right

> China must act. Any nation would act at this point.

that's not a given, and why must they act against peaceful protest? Lining up
para-military tanks against a civilian population is not something that most
nations would do. It's clearly designed to intimidate.

> Perhaps still China can find an alternative approach. I hope so.

The alternative approach is pretty obvious to any democratic nation

~~~
yyhhsj0521
> protest is their right

> act against peaceful protest

But violent protest is not a right. With Molotov cocktails being thrown around
and lasers used to burn the polices' eyes, it's not "peaceful protest"
anymore.

However, I'd like to point out that the shutdown of the airport is how the
protest should look like. People being peaceful, so no one's getting hurt and
there's no police showing up.

------
tombh
Why aren't we talking more about the history of HK's creation, namely the
Opium wars? I suspect that the majority of people that feel strongly about
China's behaviour don't actually have any idea what the British did to China
in the middle of the 19th century, namely: in the style of a mafia get 10s of
millions of Chinese addicted to Opium and then go to war with them when China
tried to put an end to the trade. It is by all today's measures what I'm sure
the majority of people would call evil.

I am of course not at all advocating today's Chinese violence. I just don't
understand how any of us have a leg to stand on in feeling outraged. This is
the world, the so-called modern world, that, by using mobile phones and modern
medicine, we've implicitly signed up for. HK is but one example of the price
of modernity. What if native Americans or indigenous Australians rose up in
the same way, asking for their land back? Or Indians and Africans rose up
asking for their natural resources and slave labour back?

The real "crime" here is that we're so morally bankrupt and out of touch with
history that all we can do is watch and tweet hashtags. Globalisation is here
to stay. The quality of Western life is fundamentally dependent on Chinese
labour, manufacturing and technology. We don't get to reap the benefits of
that and at the same time arrogantly and unreflectively denounce their
political policies. And to repeat, this is not a justification of China's
recent stance on HK or any of its other foreign or domestic policies.

Perhaps we should boycott everything Chinese? Of course that is never going to
happen. But we can at least help each other remember how exactly the West came
to be. Though of course we don't because we're the top dogs and no one is
forcing us to. Which I might argue is the true source of the outrage that most
of us feel in hearing the news from HK: outrage that something is actually
forcing us to reflect on our own circumstances. And what better scapegoat to
deflect those difficult emotions than a quintessentially foreign, little
understood far far-away culture.

~~~
simonh
>Why aren't we talking more about the history of HK's creation, namely the
Opium wars?

Because the people of Hong Kong have no responsibility for the Opium Wars
perhaps? I'm not sure what you are actually suggesting.

>The real "crime" here is that we're so morally bankrupt and out of touch with
history that all we can do is watch and tweet hashtags.

Ok, what do you want to do?

~~~
tombh
Then who does have responsibility? Surely you're not suggesting that all is
forgiven and forgotten once the perpetrators are dead?

I'm suggesting that, figuratively, if you actually knew that you lived by a
volcano, the emotional shock caused by its eruption could be tempered by some
foresight.

The Opium Trade and Wars were evil and at a massive scale, I just don't see
how that can be spun any other way. How was this ever going to turn out any
differently? Like I said the only reason we're so outraged is because we
obliterated every other nation to the point that they'll never be able to rise
up.

~~~
simonh
Responsibility for what? Either the people of Hong Kong are entitled to their
opinions and freedoms, or they are not.

I don't see why the actions of some dead British guys from 150 years ago have
anything to do with whether that it true or not?

Nobody is spinning the opium wars in any way. You are the one who brought up
the topic.

~~~
tombh
Responsibility for justice. Perhaps legally nothing will ever happen, but
without moral justice, "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to
repeat it". The opinions and freedoms of the Chinese in 1842 were the same as
Hong Kong's are now: to remain as they were and not become part of a different
nation. So if you believe that Hong Kong deserves independence now, then you
need to also believe that it deserved remaining Chinese then.

I'm not an apologist for China. For example I strongly believe in the
independence of Taiwan, they've clearly demonstrated through their own efforts
that they are different to the mainland. They didn't have that sentiment force
upon them by guns from a foreign military might.

~~~
simonh
Justice for who, right now, and on what issue? Most of your comments are very
frustratingly vague. I've no real idea what specifically you are actually
criticising or advising.

>They didn't have that sentiment force upon them by guns from a foreign
military might.

The current population of Hong Kong didn't have their current status imposed
on them by people with guns either. Yet. They, like you and I, were simply
born into a political and economic environment not of their making. I think
it's reasonable for any of us to have an opinion about whether having anything
forced on them by guns now is acceptable or not.

~~~
tombh
For sure I don't think I've made myself clear enough, that's all on me, I'm
sorry. So just for the sake of clarity let me over simplify it.

Imagine that my long-term girlfriend who worked in a coffee shop all her life
found out her boss was a murderous drug dealer. Instead of quitting she
becomes the company accountant thus taking a massive pay raise that I in turn
benefit from. The company doesn't directly break the law but we have some
vague idea that it wouldn't be as successful as it is if it wasn't for the
connections the boss has. Neither I nor my girlfriend ever did or ever will do
anything morally wrong. We enjoy the freedoms the extra money gives us. One
day the police find out about the boss's illegal activities and it looks like
the company will have to be dissolved.

In this circumstance I completely agree that I and my girlfriend have a right
to feel distressed our quality of life is about to be drastically lowered.
However, considering the circumstances, I have no right to be outraged at my
government for not supporting my rights to indirectly enjoy the money my
girlfriend gets from a company that built its niche through mafia activities.

~~~
simonh
To counter your example. Suppose your great, great grandchildren found out
about that story. How relevant do you think they would find it to their
decisions about their lives, assuming they have no knowledge or anything to do
with drug dealing or criminal activity themselves?

~~~
tombh
You're right, it's completely irrelevant to them. But can you honestly say
that the mainland Chinese great, great children have also forgotten about it?
Why not? It's because it's convenient for HK to forget whilst it was a
fundamentally defining moment for China that influenced the end of the Qing
dynasty, the end of over 2000 years of imperial rule and the creation of the
communist-based political ideologies we see today. But by your logic everyone
forgets about everything given enough time? That just strikes me as naive and
a form of denial.

I still don't think you understand my point. I'm not saying that HK doesn't
have a right to fight. I'm saying that they're not like Taiwan or all the
other peoples that naturally came to their differentiated political stance -
HK simply doesn't have history and destiny on its side, so it's always going
to be that much more of a struggle.

Maybe another example will make it clearer. I have the right to protest
against the bear that's attacking me, but I don't have a right to ask the
world to change the fundamental nature of bears as if its a matter of
geopolitics. Bears will always be bears. Bear violence has nothing to do with
communism or democracy. And so it's a waste of energy to entertain that idea.

I don't like what China is doing to HK, but Britain walked into bear
territory. Let's not argue about how wrong bears are, let's be sober and treat
bears as bears, not as symbols of anti-democracy that might somehow appeal to
diplomacy.

