
Germans, still outraged by NSA spying, learn their country may have helped - junto
http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/nsa-scandal-rekindles-in-germany-with-an-ironic-twist/2015/04/30/030ec9e0-ee7e-11e4-8050-839e9234b303_story.html
======
allendoerfer
As a German I would suggest to just ask the NSA to leave the country.
Additionally, I do not want Gabriel to become chancellor, but I would like to
see Merkel and de Maizière (who already survived a remarkable amount of
scandals) getting bitten by this. America is a friend and important to us, but
even more are our ties to France and the EU, which should be our number one
priority by a large margin.

But as soon as you argue in that direction someone from an agency, who wants
to play with the big guys and their big toys, comes along and argues how
America is critical for our security and how endangered we are and that
Germany did not had a terrorist attack yet just because the mighty US of A
guards us. If he is good at his job, he manages to slip in the Marshall Plan
as well. People seem to believe this, even if they know, how our agencies fail
to prevent (non-islamic) terrorism [0] and that it was in fact the police on
its own that caught the attempted (islamic) bomber in Frankfurt last week [1].

[0]: [http://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/nov/16/german-neo-
nazi...](http://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/nov/16/german-neo-nazi-
security-service-scandal)

[1]: [http://news.yahoo.com/report-german-police-conduct-anti-
terr...](http://news.yahoo.com/report-german-police-conduct-anti-terrorism-
raid-detain-103609247.html)

~~~
mohawk
Every time we hear about a new scandal in our German secret services, i await
the news of another terrorist cell to be busted. I am rarely disappointed.
Cynical me imagines a little cottage industry inside the secret services,
always with a small queue of potential terrorists that their handlers can then
push further on short notice. These terrorists can then be raided and
presented to the public, reinvigorating our fear and making us think that the
deep state is the lesser of two evils. And then, after a few weeks, it is back
to business as usual.

~~~
junto
The conspiracy nut part of me could also believe that they have a parallel
stream of stupid and mentality ill ones that can be used to actually implement
'terrorist' attacks, but are supposed to be both directed, then contained and
killed before they can inflict too much damage (or talk afterwards in front of
a jury).

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Sydney_hostage_crisis](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Sydney_hostage_crisis)

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charlie_Hebdo_shooting#Ch.C3.A9...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charlie_Hebdo_shooting#Ch.C3.A9rif_and_Sa.C3.AFd_Kouachi)

~~~
mohawk
Here is some info on the Sauerland cell of 2007 (unfortunately in German):

[http://www.stern.de/panorama/sauerland-zelle-
mutmasslicher-c...](http://www.stern.de/panorama/sauerland-zelle-
mutmasslicher-cia-mann-war-der-chef-653678.html)

Quick summary: The person the people in the Sauerland cell called "boss" and
who organised the fuses for them was a "contact person" for MİT (Turkish
intelligence org.) and CIA.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Intelligence_Organiza...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Intelligence_Organization_%28Turkey%29)

Background:

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007_bomb_plot_in_Germany](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007_bomb_plot_in_Germany)

------
rmc
A few weeks ago China was attacking a US company (GitHub), and many Americans
here called for China to be kicked off the internet. Now the USA is spying on
French companies. I presume the same people will call for the USA to be kicked
off the internet?

~~~
wolfgke
> I presume the same people will call for the USA to be kicked off the
> internet?

Or at least put the DNS root zone under international control (currently the
root zone is under control of the Department of Commerce; cf.
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DNS_root_zone](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DNS_root_zone)).

~~~
atmosx
I am trying to think how on earth can we avoid that in the future... Every
country will turn into an closed-Internet Island. You won't be able to buy
anything abroad without being taxed (multiple times), you won't be able to
purchase remote services (even if they are far superior).

Government will turn the internet into something unimaginably ugly. Then we'll
have books to explain how the internet was _once upon a time_.

~~~
alfiedotwtf
Nothing is stopping you start a new root DNS. In fact, people are doing just
that:

    
    
        https://bit.namecoin.info/

~~~
eridal
This is great. Thanks for sharing!

I really see that this is the right direction, however this requires that each
user install something in their machines, which wont converge quickly.

~~~
jkestner
It would be interesting to see the major consumer electronics companies,
already in opposition to the governments' growing control of the internet,
start to add new root DNSes.

------
CaptainZapp
This article :

[http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/bnd-
intelligence...](http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/bnd-intelligence-
scandal-puts-merkel-in-tight-place-a-1031944.html)

may be interesting in this context.

Note that Der Spiegel is considered a top notch news source. Something like a
German Economist in a way.

~~~
collyw
Is the Economist considered a good news source? (OK, its better than the
average tabloid or Fox news type trash, I'll give it that).

~~~
grkvlt
Absoluely. Both their news and their opinion pieces are excellent, and I would
recommend a subscription to the print magazine, for a good weekly summary of
world news, albeit with a slight UK slant.

One interesting thing is that their columns have no by-lines, so the writers
are anonymous, to prevent readers being prejudiced or biased by the identity
of the journalist. [http://www.economist.com/blogs/economist-
explains/2013/09/ec...](http://www.economist.com/blogs/economist-
explains/2013/09/economist-explains-itself-1)

~~~
CaptainZapp
You're absolutely correct. Just a slight nitpick:

    
    
      One interesting thing is that their columns have no by-lines
    

There are two exceptions to that: Special reports (which usually are highly
insightful and informative) and the parting article of the editor in chief

------
tomschlick
Of course they did. It's the explicit job of these organizations (in all
countries) to spy on foreign powers, multi-national companies, and potential
people that may be a threat.

We spy on our best allies and you'd better believe they spy on us. We just
happen to have the evidence of the US doing it thanks to Snowden.

It may not be right but they all do it.

Edit: Really? Down voted for saying that most countries probably do this? I'm
not saying its right, just that it's not particularly surprising.

~~~
lispm
You have no clue. The BND helped the NSA to spy on GERMANS and GERMAN
companies. Plus EUROPEANs.

It's not the job of the BND to help the NSA to spy on Germany and the EU.

> We spy on our best allies and you'd better believe they spy on us. We just
> happen to have the evidence of the US doing it thanks to Snowden.

Look, the difference is this: we have literally THOUSANDS of NSA, CIA and US
military agency personal in Germany. There are huge official installations of
the NSA, the CIA and US military in Germany. Instead of respecting the host
country, they are spying on us, collecting data, manage their wars,
disrespecting our laws, ...

There is nothing, absolutely NOTHING, even remotely comparable done by Germany
in or around the US.

~~~
tomschlick
> The BND helped the NSA to spy on GERMANS and GERMAN companies.

Didn't know that part. Thats an interesting twist. I could understand them
working together against someone else but not against themselves. Must be part
of that "Five eyes" cooperation thing Snowden was talking about.

~~~
bayesianhorse
The actual extent is still unknown. There is a possibility that industrial
secrets have been transmitted, but there's no proof or even allegations of a
particular case which has happened. I'd rather know more details before
passing judgement.

~~~
biafra
There is enough evidence that the NSA does industrial espionage against
Germany and Europe. Whether the BND was stupid enough to help them, remains to
be seen.

------
filoeleven
I posted this in response to a comment downthread, then realized that it's
probably more appropriate at the top level, given the headline. Sorry for the
dupe.

That's not all the US is doing in Deutschland. "[T]he slides show that the
facilities at Ramstein perform an essential function in lethal drone strikes
conducted by the CIA and the U.S. military in the Middle East, Afghanistan and
Africa."[0]

So it is not just spying on the EU that is being enabled by Germany's
government, it is the entirety of the US drone program that is being used
across the Middle East and north Africa. This program, operating as it does
outside of declared war zones, is very probably illegal under German law.

[0][https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2015/04/17/ramstein/](https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2015/04/17/ramstein/)

------
tempodox
It's not the first time to see collaboration like that. Time and again I find
it fascinating how the members of the “surveillance community” seem to have a
closer relationship with each other (across countries) than with their
respective civilian compatriots.

~~~
junto
It is the 'us and them' mentality. I know someone who worked in a government
security service.

Their opinion of the general population's ability to self-govern is less than
positive.

To be clear, I've put that quite diplomatically. They think we are a bunch of
idiots who don't understand the bigger picture. Of course the fact that the
bigger picture is deliberately kept secret from us is overlooked.

They are self serving, but what is worse in the US is that the security
services are basically a bunch of private firms, who have a vested interest in
keeping the government spending billions of dollars. Many of those companies
also have vested interests in selling arms. It isn't a good mix.

~~~
saiya-jin
...and we see results of this every day in news. "Follow the money" rule
should be used all the time as default when trying to understand what the hell
is going on in this world

------
DyslexicAtheist
this isn't surprising. Germans should be outraged since the late 90ies. The
topic has been in and out of the news in Germany since long before Snowden.
What the Americans did with projects like ‟Echolon” was openly known to most
(albeit disputed by the Americans).

[http://blog.valbonne-consulting.com/2015/02/16/tinker-
tailor...](http://blog.valbonne-consulting.com/2015/02/16/tinker-tailor-
soldier-spy-us-industrial-espionage-in-germany/)

~~~
wolfgke
Many Germans were more or less aware of Echolon, but most thought it wouldn't
be that bad (I was not among them from beginning and was talking against a
brick wall (and still do in related topics)). With Snowden lots of Germans
became aware that all these few alerters that were laughed down were right
from the beginning.

------
kra34
Rick: How can you close me up? On what grounds?

Captain Renault: I'm shocked, shocked to find that gambling is going on in
here! [a croupier hands Renault a pile of money]

Croupier: Your winnings, sir.

Captain Renault: Oh, thank you very much.

------
emsy
The sad thing is, in Germany the public doesn't really seem to care. They are
still the same nation that follows allong blindly until the shit is hitting
the fan. Of course, when the crash comes, the responsibility will be delegated
upwards.

~~~
mcbetz
Do you have any proof for this bold claim? I will try to prove that quite the
opposite is true: Germany has a very active civil society and privacy
("Datenschutz") and transparency is on the agenda not only of the opposition
party "Die Grünen" and the small "Piratenpartei", but also by organizations
such as Chaos Computer Club, Netzpolitik.org and Verbraucherzentrale. There
have been huge demonstrations, "Freiheit statt Angst" (Freedom instead of
fear), with thousands demonstrating in Berlin and elsewhere. You can find all
material on their website, also in English -
[http://freiheitstattangst.de/aufruf/](http://freiheitstattangst.de/aufruf/)

~~~
thesimon
Some people care about it, yes. But obviously only a small percentage, the
general public doesn't care as long as Merkel is in office and says nothing to
worry about.

Just like this Simpsons quote Homer: "Lisa, the whole reason we have elected
officials is so we don't have to think all the time. Just like that rain
forest scare a few years back. Our officials saw there was a problem and they
fixed it, didn't they?"

Stats for public opinion:
[http://de.statista.com/statistik/daten/studie/261897/umfrage...](http://de.statista.com/statistik/daten/studie/261897/umfrage/umfrage-
zur-abhoeraffaere/) 55% even like the activies of the NSA et al.

~~~
mcbetz
You are obviously misusing the statistic. First off, the question that 55%
answered positively was not whether they liked the NSA, but whether "in order
to prevent terror attacks, you have to live with mass spy activities". That is
shameless framing because you give a negative consequence no one wants (terror
attacks). It is not too surprising that a majority answers yes to the solution
the interviewer proposes. But would such a majority of interviewees come up
with the solution themselves? I highly doubt it. Just ask any passerby:
"Please finish this sentence: 'In order to prevent terror attacks, spying
...'.

Additionally, the very same interviewees are surprised just how much Germany
has been spyed on (61%). Note the framing here again. Here you have no
evaluation, but just a very weak sensation ("surprised"). The interviewer
could also have asked: "Do you like how much the NSA spied on Germany?" \- and
I bet the answer would have been clear.

And again, there are very few topics that we think the public cares about
(taxes, pension) and again, how do we notice they might care? Media. As with
privacy. As with immigration. As with any other political topic.

------
bayesianhorse
What I know until now does not make me want to elect a new government. Really.
I'm German and I follow the political scene.

This scandal is bad enough. I understand the urge to slap the government. But
that punishment would ultimately hurt our society more than it would hurt the
responsible parties. I don't see a chancellor that I don't believe will do a
worse job than Merkel, and getting rid of the two dominant parties only leaves
inexperienced and incompetent politicians to do the job.

~~~
quonn
> only leaves inexperienced and incompetent politicians to do the job.

I think the idea that politicians primarily need to be experienced is a great
mistake. It's not like they really run the government, which is really done by
a huge number of government employees and experts a layer below.

What _does_ matter is integrity, a willingness to balance interests, listening
to experts and aligning with the political position of those who elected you
(e.g. a social democrat should probably focus more on the interests of workers
- it puzzles me how the fact that there really are different interests that do
not always align and that much of politics is therefore really about power is
always ignored in favour of "experience").

And, by the way, some current German top politicians often _already_ seem
quite incompetent. It seems unfair to just claim that members of smaller
parties are more incompetent.

~~~
hessenwolf
Would you rather a corrupt politician than made the country rich (Haughey,
Putin) or an honest politician that made the country poor (Mugabe)?

~~~
bayesianhorse
I think these examples are particularly well chosen. Putin and Mugabe are
quasi-dictators running authoritarian states, and I don't even know the
slightest bit about Haughey.

And Russia is arguably having quite a bit of trouble, economically, not even
just because of the sanctions but because the general corruption in the
country just doesn't allow for a sufficient retooling of the Russian economy.
And the sanctions are a direct consequence of Putin not wanting to play by the
rules and now being excluded from the game.

~~~
hessenwolf
I think that Putin is the band-aid Russian needed ten years ago, but gone
mouldy for a few years now.

Mugabe, yes, initially wanted to redistribute the land wonderfully... didn't
totally think that one through.

I just mean to say that integrity and competence are not analogues.

~~~
bayesianhorse
Russia didn't need an authoritarian state 10 years ago and didn't need one
now.

Putin never achieved anything without cutting down his opposition.

~~~
hessenwolf
How familiar with Russia are you, by the way? Maybe if we trade backgrounds,
the conversation could proceed more interestingly... My contacts are mostly
through my wife, so I hear it from St. Petersburg, North Ossetia, Georgia, and
the Ukraine, with a slightly over-representative Jewish tint. I am none of the
aforenamed.

------
bane
I don't understand why this keeps getting reported like it's new news, or that
Germans seem to keep forgetting this and "learning" about it again and again.

~~~
justaman
Perhaps the only way around cognitive dissonance is repetition.

------
stillsut
Remember who made the equipment Stuxnet targetted? Siemens.

When you export lots of specialized industrial equipment with potential use in
military/nuclear tech, someone is probably monitoring you. Oversight is good
for everybody.

------
madez
The dagger complex needs to be closed.

