
Dotcloud becoming Docker - pjvds
http://blog.docker.io/2013/10/dotcloud-is-becoming-docker-inc/
======
jxf
As a user of Docker, I'm excited. But as someone who uses the dotCloud PaaS
right now to run a company, I'm a little annoyed, mostly at myself for not
seeing this coming.

Clearly there's a diversion of resources away from the dotCloud PaaS to
Docker, and that's going to have a toll somewhere. Despite the company's
reassurances that everything is business as usual, I know that Docker [the
project] is just too much of a beast and eventually the Docker [the company]
will need to move on from the PaaS. (I should know, since I gave a talk about
how "Docker is the future" just a few weeks after Docker was announced.) [0]

I'm not really sure what my choices are now, either; DigitalOcean, I guess? I
don't want to manage servers myself, and I want to be able to pay on the
memory-usage axis for my app instances (which Heroku doesn't allow). I wasn't
super excited by DO last year, but maybe things have changed.

My current "light at the end of the tunnel" is hoping that the Docker-based
PaaS ecosystem matures, but for now none of them seem like they're mature
enough, and it's tough to keep up with all of them since it seems like another
one pops up each week.

Here's my wishlist:

\-- (1) command-line client for deployment via git repository and doing
anything related to deployment (add new instances, remove instances, create
new environments, assign domains to the PaaS router, etc.)

\-- (2) clear pricing

\-- (3) I can pay for more memory as I need it

\-- (4) ability to specify environment variables in a configuration file that
take effect on the container process

\-- (5) web interface for administering the account

Anyone have any recommendations?

[0] [http://spreecommerce.com/blog/spreeconf-DC-speaker-
highlight...](http://spreecommerce.com/blog/spreeconf-DC-speaker-highlight-
john-feminella)

~~~
ARothfusz
There's no need to make a hasty decision -- we haven't changed the platform in
any way or lowered our support efforts. If you've found that you can count on
the dotCloud PaaS for your business (and thank you for that!), then nothing
changed today. We're still here for you.

If you feel like you want to get ready for running on another platform, or
using Docker as it matures, then I'd suggest the first step would be to move
your databases to a neutral third party provider. With that in place, you can
still run your code on the dotCloud PaaS, or anywhere else. As Docker and the
ecosystem around it mature, there will be many more options.

I work for Docker Inc on the dotCloud PaaS and manage the support. If you have
more private questions, you can reach us at support@dotcloud.com

/Andy

~~~
jxf
Thanks for the reassurance, Andy. We've chatted a couple of times in IRC and
you've always been awesome in my complicated support requests.

Still, my concern isn't about the quality of the dotCloud PaaS going down --
it's pretty high already, and I don't have any plans to move immediately.

Instead, I'm more concerned about the shift in general. You know as well as
anyone that software that doesn't get love and care eventually rots, and the
blog post explicitly says that the focus is now on Docker and away from the
PaaS.

From that, I infer that the PaaS is eventually going to have to go away as is
the natural order of things. Since my company depends critically on that piece
of infrastructure, I need to make sure I'm covering my bases with an exit
strategy if you do decide to turn out the lights on the PaaS, or at least make
sure I've thought about what to do as an alternative.

I also hope you guys make a bajillion dollars on Docker. It's really an
excellent idea whose time has come.

~~~
shykes
Hey John, thanks for the kind words! I just wanted to add one datapoint to
back Andy's response: the resource allocation to dotCloud has been the same
_for the last 6 months_ , and there is no change planned to that allocation as
of today. In other words, if you were satisfied with our service over the last
few weeks, you are likely to continue to be satisfied for months to come.

I would worry about an exit strategy too if I were in your shoes - but just
know that your trust and success as a customer matters more to us than any
bajillion of dollars we would stand to make if we betrayed it.

In fact I'm pretty sure we can "make a bajillion dollars" _and_ continue to
earn your trust :)

Thanks for doing business with us John! Docker is in part thanks to you.

~~~
merlinsbrain
Wow, its people like this (both comments from docker/dotCloud) that make you
really love a service. In fact, I would have put my next side project on
dotCloud if the prices weren't steep - but I get that they're for businesses
and not for side projects.

I guess DO is good for that stuff (at the very least! - I'm sure they're good
in general as well, I've actually been reading/discussing them a lot - mostly
for hobby projects though).

EDIT: Forgot about dokku/flynn as a PaaS (plugin?). Also learned about other
services in the thread which I'll be looking at.

------
shykes
Hey everyone, dotCloud/Docker founder here. I just wanted to thank the HN
community for your support. Your feedback - both positive and negative - has
shaped Docker more than you know.

I also want to confirm that, yes, the trust and satisfaction of our customers
matters more to us than any amount of money. You can always make more money
later, but once trust is gone, it's gone. So expect us to work ourselves to
exhaustion to continue to earn the trust of our paas customers, no matter how
crazy things get with Docker (and I can tell you it's only going to get
crazier!)

~~~
shykes
And if you prefer to learn by practice, here's an awesome online tutorial:
[https://www.docker.io/gettingstarted/](https://www.docker.io/gettingstarted/)

------
programminggeek
This is a smart move. Some people might call it a pivot, but I think it's
really doubling down on what people really want. dotCloud is not going to
change the world (or make a truckload of money) by being Heroku's also-ran.

Instead, they are taking something they built that is really interesting to a
lot of people and building a business around it. As someone who is quite
interested in docker, I'm glad that they are turning it into a real business.
This benefits pretty much everyone who wants to see docker succeed.

Also, it's really smart that they are keeping dotCloud alive. It would be
incredibly irresponsible for them to kill that business just to push faster on
docker.

~~~
jbellis
I was with you until the last sentence. Why would it be irresponsible to kill
the Heroku also-ran to push faster on what people really want?

~~~
bmelton
Because there are people running businesses on dotCloud currently?

Because, at least in my humble opinion, it's actually better than Heroku?

Because, at a minimum, cutting it off at the knees would engender tons and
tons of bad will amongst their current customers?

Because the customers deserve a couple of 'writing on the wall' style posts
like this to begin thinking about migrating to alternatives before the cutoff
is actually announced, forcing their hand in what could be 'too short a time
period' to get migrated?

The more time they buy their existing customers before dismantling what works,
and what people are paying them for, the better.

That said, this _is_ the 'writing on the wall' that people should be looking
for alternatives, at the barest minimum.

~~~
mst
It may not be the writing on the wall, since running a docker PaaS will be a
useful way to understand ... what problems you encounter while running a
docker PaaS.

But we'll see, I guess.

------
Myrmornis
_Docker shall not be distributed or downloaded to or in Cuba, Iran, North
Korea, Sudan or Syria_

This statement occurs in the docker README[0]. If at all possible, one would
want to keep such channeling of potentially offensive government policy out of
an open source software project's public documentation. For one thing, there
are many enthusiastic open source programmers residing in the above list of
countries.

The NOTICE[1] document explains that

 _Like all software products that utilize cryptography, the export and use of
Docker is subject to the U.S. Commerce Department 's Export Administration
Regulations (EAR) because it uses or contains cryptography (see
[http://www.bis.doc.gov/index.php/policy-
guidance/encryption](http://www.bis.doc.gov/index.php/policy-
guidance/encryption)). Certain free and open source software projects have a
lightweight set of requirements, which can generally be met by providing email
notice to the appropriate U.S. government agencies that their source code is
available on a publicly available repository and making the appropriate
statements in the README._

I'm not familiar with seeing other open source projects from American
organizations state that they may not be downloaded in the above list of
countries. Is the use of cryptography in docker different in a way that makes
the docker organization more at risk from legal challenges from the federal
government in this regard, or are docker being anal and xenophobic in blithely
displaying this notice?

[0]
[https://github.com/dotcloud/docker/blob/master/README.md](https://github.com/dotcloud/docker/blob/master/README.md)

[1]
[https://github.com/dotcloud/docker/blob/master/NOTICE](https://github.com/dotcloud/docker/blob/master/NOTICE)

~~~
Nrsolis
This is kinda a non-negotiable for them, isn't it? It's not like they suddenly
decided to enforce the USG policy and make a big deal about it.

IANAL, but it seems prudent to acknowledge that the crypto work was done in
the USA and therefore falls under the export policy that ALL exportable
software falls under. My company has to include this warning on its software
and we even have two different versions (domestic and export) to deal with
this issue.

I know it's unpopular, but why make Docker answer for it? Take it up with the
USG if it makes you that unhappy.

Better yet, strip out all the non-exportable code, replace it with code
written from outside the USA and presto-changes, you've solved a problem for
the whole world.

~~~
shykes
Docker maintainer here. I also hate having to put this in the README (and hate
it even more each time someone from Iran offers to contribute... what a waste
of talent and energy this policy creates!).

But we triple-checked with our legal counsel and they confirmed it's the only
way to stay unambiguously out of trouble. As un-tasteful as it is, it's better
than causing unnecessary legal trouble for docker contributors down the road.

If you're interested in the subject here's an edifying expose of the
situation: [http://harpers.org/blog/2013/08/andrew-cockburn-on-the-
failu...](http://harpers.org/blog/2013/08/andrew-cockburn-on-the-failure-and-
ferocity-of-americas-sanctions-programs/)

~~~
Myrmornis
Hi, thanks for the answer! I suppose it would be possible, without impacting
the legal protection afforded by the notice, to preface the notice with some
language indicating that docker would prefer it not to appear in the README,
e.g. "unfortunately, due to ...". But in any case, congratulations with all
the momentum you've gathered and I'm looking forward to learning more about
docker here.

~~~
shykes
That was the exact purpose of the introductory line " _Brought to you courtesy
of our legal counsel._ " :)

Coincidentally we just tweaked the language to match Apache and OpenSSL. It's
pretty similar, but doesn't specifically name countries - it just refers to
"whatever the rules happen to be under US regulation".

[https://github.com/dotcloud/docker/commit/b48fc9657976091ff3...](https://github.com/dotcloud/docker/commit/b48fc9657976091ff3833d340877aa5b761e3969)

------
shrikrishna
I have been using Docker for a couple of days now, and am really in love with
it! Congratulations on the new direction and wish you all the luck in the
world!

I'd like to ask one question though - It seems that it's possible to limit the
amount of cpu and memory of each container, but not so with the filesystem. I
know this is some issue related to AUFS being used internally. But I would
really like to know whether there is _any_ hack that allows us to limit the
size of the filesystem, or whether it's in the pipeline?

~~~
shykes
There is definitely a hack :) You should join the #docker channel on irc
(freenode) and ask for keeb or jpetazzo, they can help you out. If they don't,
someone else probably will. People are very nice and useful there.

~~~
keeblus
Yep, as shykes says, I'm always available to help.

Take a look at how I built tryrethink.info (which covers this topic and more)
-> [http://nick.stinemat.es](http://nick.stinemat.es)

~~~
shrikrishna
Thanks! That was really helpful!

------
pron
Can someone please explain what is Docker exactly? I've read this page,
[http://www.docker.com/about_docker/docker/](http://www.docker.com/about_docker/docker/),
and didn't understand. What exactly does it encapsulate? What does the
application see when it queries its environment?

~~~
shrikrishna
Think about it as a very lightweight VM. You can do everything you can in a VM
(which, in turn, can do everything you can in your regular system). Only thing
is, it is a wrapper over lxc (Linux Containers) which means that you can only
run Linux flavors and the host needs to have an advanced kernel (~3.8).
Advantage is that if a VM needs ~80s to boot, a docker container can boot in
<2s. And that's possible because a docker container shares the kernel of the
host, (unlike VMs, which are all isolated)

~~~
pron
Oh, so it's not only a deployment mechanism, but an actual runtime "VM".

What does it add over linux containers?

~~~
shykes
I gave some of my thoughts on the topic here:
[http://stackoverflow.com/questions/17989306/what-does-
docker...](http://stackoverflow.com/questions/17989306/what-does-docker-add-
to-just-plain-lxc)

------
sker
VMware is currently valued at 35B. Who is to say Docker couldn't be the next
VMware? I would invest in these guys if I could.

~~~
sciurus
More likely Red Hat or someone else will buy them before that happens.

------
keeblus
Docker just keeps growing and growing. The amount of new businesses springing
up to take advtange, along with some pretty heavy hitters looking to adopt,
Docker has a fighting chance to become a standard from which everyone
benefits.

------
Touche
It's really interesting how Docker has become this beast, but was originally
developed as a practical way to run their business. How many companies have
been formed this way?

It's an great thing to point to when a startup doesn't want to invest any time
into getting their fundamental product right and just want to hack together
using existing and known technologies.

~~~
bmelton
Ironically enough, in this case, Solomon originally started dotCloud as a tool
to help manage server images, which he then leveraged into a business based on
the tool, which now seems to be transitioning back to the tool itself as the
core.

------
jqueryin
Congratulations is well in order. It's so exciting to see the progress the
team and platform have made in such a short amount of time.

Only months ago at PyCon Solomon Hykes was showing off Docker to the public
for the first time:

[http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=wW9CA...](http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=wW9CAH9nSLs)

~~~
shykes
Thanks! It has been a crazy ride, and it doesn't look like it's going to slow
down any time soon!

------
megaman821
So is Docker, Inc. going to provide orchestration for Docker containers in the
future? Are they going to host private registries?

------
cschmidt
If you're looking for the clickable version of the graphic on the OP (where
the Read More links work), it is here:

[http://www.docker.com/about_docker/](http://www.docker.com/about_docker/)

------
ddorian43
Can't a PAAS use dedicated hosting and provide a cheaper price instead of the
overcriped ec2 ? (is there one?)

~~~
prottmann
I found today [http://modulus.io](http://modulus.io), they use different
clouds. But definitly at a better price as dotcloud/nodejitsu/heroku,
especially for smaller projects with SSL. Nice are the backend statistics
without paying for any extra service.

But i think in the next months many new PaaS services will rise, thanks to
docker ;-)

And i hope many new without amazon (amazon is not bad, but expensive).

------
slantview
hello wowlrd! congrats!

