
Does design really matter for startups? - sgdesign
http://www.attackofdesign.com/does-design-really-matter-for-start-ups/
======
goldmab
_Hacker News or Stack Overflow are good examples of very successful sites that
have horrible visual design._

Does anyone else actually like the visual design of HN? Besides the endless
horizontal text problem, it's very easy to read, and there are no
distractingly bad UI elements. Good minimalism, to me.

~~~
ugh
HN could look much better without adding anything. You could spend endless
hours tweaking alignment, margins, rhythm and typography.

HN's design currently delivers a solid performance and its content is great.
Looking a bit strange to passersby is probably a good thing, I don't think
HN's focus is attracting new people, especially new people who are only
attracted by the visual design.

I have no idea why the visual design of Stack Overflow is called horrible.
It's ok, not awesome but certainly ok.

~~~
sgdesign
Maybe "horrible" is a little strong to talk about HN and SO. "Unappealing"
would've been a better word. Stack Overflow especially barely has any styling.

By the way, in that section I was talking purely about visual design, i.e.
styling, or "eye candy". I'm not debating the fact that both sites have great
user experience (in fact that's specifically why I picked them as examples).

~~~
goldmab
What you call eye candy, I call trendiness. To take the closest example:
Attack Of Design looks lovely, but that background noisy pixel look is very
2010/2011.

~~~
sgdesign
Heh, I still got a couple months before it's out of date then!

I think you're right, trendiness does play a big role in style. And it's also
true that complex designs generally get outdated faster than minimalist
designs (see: 100% of Flash sites made between 2000 and 2005).

On the other hand, it's harder to brand minimalism. So like every design
choice, it's a trade-off.

~~~
goldmab
Well put. And I forgot to mention: thanks for the article! I especially like
your definition of "feel", distinct from "look".

------
warwick
Asking if design makes a difference is kind of a silly question. We know it
makes a difference. Using A/B testing, or even just by changing one element at
a time, we can measure improvements in things like conversion ratios or
download rates.

Of course, to measure if each part of your design is effective, you have to
change it in isolation. I wouldn't surprised if there are elements of the new
Wordpress site that decrease conversion, as well as some which are increasing
it. If the design had been iterated on, instead of just rolling out the new
design, we might know which elements should have been changed to create better
results.

~~~
sgdesign
A/B tests show their limits when it comes to design. You can't A/B test a
brand or a logo, or even a background or a font. And you can't test elements
of a new design in isolation, that doesn't make any sense. Elements of a
design have to work together as a whole.

~~~
moxiemk1
Everything you've listed except for a "brand" (and the usage here seems pretty
ill-defined) _is_ very A/B testable. I'm not really sure how to refute that,
but the idea that they aren't is ridiculous. Would that be _effective_ and
produce good results? Maybe not - that's a great discussion to have, but
whether or not it's possible isn't.

Similarly, you're right - elements of a design do not exist in isolation.
However, any design will have a series of choices that resulted in its various
elements. Some choices are small/minor enough that there exist other elements
that _also_ work together with the whole, and so A/B testing them isn't some
insult to the idea of design, but an at least plausible decision-making
tactic.

~~~
sgdesign
Well ok, you could A/B test replacing Arial by Helvetica, but it would be
pretty meaningless and probably not make any difference. That doesn't mean
that there _is_ no difference. Maybe on a subconscious level, people would
start to perceive your site and relate to your brand differently.

And maybe changing the font, and then the background separately would not make
a difference, but changing _both_ at the same time would make an impact. All
those things are A/B testable in theory, but I don't think it would be very
effective.

~~~
warwick
If you think the background and the font together are going to make a change,
then by all means, conduct a test and see if whichever metric you're working
with goes up. I'm in favour of isolating changes as much as possible, but if
you believe that two elements of your design work only in concert with each
other, then they should be modified accordingly. These aren't random
permutations you test, they're new tweaks to a design that you suspect might
help.

Sure, changing the font may be meaningless, but at least with a test, you KNOW
it's meaningless. I try to let experience and taste guide my changes, but
without checking that the change is effective you're just guessing.

Design exists to further a goal. Sometimes the goal is brand related, which
I'll admit is just about impossible to measure, and sometimes it's seeing if
you can reduce the frequency of support requests. One of these is obviously a
better candidate for A/B testing.

[Edited to fix a spelling error]

------
ThomPete
Despite the articles attempt not to it ends up talking about style more than
anything else.

Design is about finding the solution to a problem. Once you find a solution
you can then apply a style to that solution

Does design matter for startups?

Yes always

Does style matter?

Rarely but still sometimes

~~~
sgdesign
There are a lot of cases where design does not matter. For example, if your
software works without a GUI or even no user interface whatsoever.

Now of course you could argue that even a programming language is "designed",
but that's clearly a different kind of design. You have to draw the line
somewhere, otherwise "design" can pretty much be anything you want.

~~~
ThomPete
I am not sure what you mean with that.

I would say that it matters quite a lot whether your software works without a
GUI or even no interface whatsoever.

In any case you cannot not, design software.

Design _is_ almost anything you want and I find it more important to realize
that than to try and draw lines somewhere.

I know brilliant software designers who can't draw a straight line but are
excellent developers and have an excellent understanding of what it takes.

~~~
sgdesign
If design is anything you want it to be, then I don't really see the point of
talking about it.

Maybe you were not commenting on the article but just making a point. If
that's the case I apologize. But my post was specifically talking about the
kind of design that you would hire a web designer to do, so in this case the
line is pretty clearly drawn.

~~~
ThomPete
I would hire a web designer for many things, product design wouldn't
necessarily be one of them.

Again you are taking a small subpart of design and trying to make it the de
facto standard of design. It's not.

Even if we where to use that subpart even within "web-design" there is a style
component and a problem solving component just as there is a communication
component.

Even if you design a CLI you are designing. It's pretty important what type
you use, what colors you use and so one. Not for style purpose but for actual
usefulness of the interface.

------
danoc
It's definitely important. I remember reading an article about a startup that
was struggling to get their first users. After following someone's advice and
spending a couple of bucks on a ThemeForest design, their sales increased
dramatically.

Users are more likely to trust a well designed site.

~~~
younata
wasn't a startup, tweeting machine. The guy posted a 2 part writeup on his
experience [1].

[1] [http://tbbuck.com/building-a-web-application-that-
makes-500-...](http://tbbuck.com/building-a-web-application-that-
makes-500-a-month-part-i/)

[http://tbbuck.com/building-a-web-application-that-
makes-500-...](http://tbbuck.com/building-a-web-application-that-
makes-500-a-month-–-part-ii/)

~~~
danoc
Thanks! That's exactly what I was referring to.

------
jase_coop
There's general misrepresentation throughout this conversation and the article
that design is merely a veneer that you either choose to implement or not at
some point.

Design is about solving problems, and a design led company/individual adopts a
certain mind frame that often tends to contrast that of the engineer.

If you're designing a consumer product and your engineered concept works so
well that you can actually consider whether or not you 'design' it, well,
lucky you.

------
TorbjornLunde
This articles seems based on a misunderstanding that design is only about
looking good.

I would actually say Hacker News and Stack Overflow have very good design.
They have design that meets the goals of the sites. That is what design is,
meeting the goals of your product.

Sure, design can look good, but looking good is only one part of design. It’s
not all of design.

------
godDLL
Design informs your implementation. Implementation is king.

Decoration merely helps.

~~~
sgdesign
Well, calling it "decoration" in itself implies that it's not important, so
it's not saying much. Not sure I get your point…?

~~~
godDLL
To both of you (sgdesign, justinph), yes design is 'how it works' as well as
'how it wears time and use' and 'how it breaks'. I did not just use two words
--design and decoration--to mean the same thing.

That would be almost as redundant as what I'm doing now. :)

------
becomevocal
HN and Stack Overflow I view as tools, utilities that don't require branding
to draw in their audience. The brand is directly connected to the quality of
content.

Now for the web as a whole, good design definitely makes a difference, even if
it doesn't affect conversion rate. At that point, look at your content.

------
dylanrw
Some of the points in this article ie: "at its core “good UX” just means “a
good product”" is not true and shows that while this guy may be hip on the
latest trends, has a solid enough grasp on some concepts, he is just starting
out in the field and does not truly understand what designers do, what design
is, and thusly he doubts the reason for "design" as he describes it (thus the
reason for this post). Unfortunately this sort of thing gains traction because
most of the internet, and in turn the HN readership, really dont understand
design or how to talk about it.

I really wish HN had more articles about design, but oft times it just flows
into a diatribe about visual style, which is just one sub component of design.

------
Neputys
Big mistake here... a huge one actually... HN and Stack Overflow have the
_right_ kind of design because in one way or another it appeals to readers.
Author is clearly not a tech guy, he doesn't understand that appeal and
lightheartedly makes a very misleading statement.

If you are working on your startup think what "sort" of design you should have
first. Imagine if Graham would make HN in fashion website style and vice
versa.

~~~
sgdesign
Clearly what appeals to users on HN and SO is the content, not the design.
Just because both sites are successful with their current visual design
doesn't mean that they wouldn't be even _more_ successful with a better style.

And yes, I'm not a tech guy, I'm a designer. Which is why I'm writing about
design, and not tech.

~~~
TorbjornLunde
Content is always king. Both engineering and design makes no sense without
content (in most cases).Design and engineering are ways to work with content.

Design is how the cup looks, and more importantly feels in your hand.
Engineering is making sure the cup don't fall apart, keeps the cofee in the
cup and don't leak. The coffe is the content.

------
rawsyntax
it's important not to have BAD design. It's not important to have THE BEST
design

------
cantlin
Stack Overflow has excellent visual design. It serves the application's
function and audience faithfully. Reducing visual design to "does it look
pretty?" is insulting his own profession. In this case I suspect it was the
result of separating web design into a number of arbitrary sections to bulk
out a blog post.

------
dirkstoop
TLDR: yes

------
MenaMena123
Design is more than a nice little picture, you can just have text on a page
and you still design. Many people that don't know about design think its about
images, it's usability, it's brand, it's feel, it's your damn company!! :)

