
How to intentionally get denied entry into the United States? - nsaparanoid
http://travel.stackexchange.com/q/24540/101
======
Hansi
I fear this will get a lot of "Just say no" comments from people that don't
understand that the author is from Pakistan and most likely grew up in a
completely different culture than most of us are used to.

And it seems like she's not villing/able to cut of contact with her family as
I would maybe do if I were in her place, but I'll never be so it's hard to
even imagine what I'd do.

~~~
smoe
One of the "just say no" sayer here. I do understand, that the author is from
Pakistan and currently studying in Spain. But, even though I think family is
important, sometimes you have to value your own will over that of the family,
no matter the cost. My father lost almost all of his friends, decades of
relations, and didn't had contact with his family for years, because he
decided to leave the "sect" and marry a woman from Finland whom he loved
instead of the 2nd degree cousin the family has designated for him. This was
in Christian Switzerland not Pakistan, but still a lot of pressure to handle.

~~~
aestra
Christian Switzerland doesn't have a history of honor killings.

~~~
JabavuAdams
Well, not a recent one.

Basically, Western society got this crap out of the way a few hundred years
ago. We still have "slut shaming" and other milder vestiges.

------
geff82
Families are MUCH closer in Pakistan and the rest of the Middle East than they
are in the western world. Doing things against the families will can get you
in big trouble and leave you without your family at all. The main difference
between the Middle East and the West is: in the west, you grow up and you are
taught by your parents how to stay on your own. That is why Westerners often
only see their parents and brothers and sisters occasionally. In the Middle
East, you grow up to be a good part of the family for the rest of your life.
As I married a girl from the Middle East I had to learn and feel the
differences and resulting occasional tensions. So to say it short: you
normally are not supposed to leave your family in Pakistan. So this girl feels
she is in great trouble, even if the solution may seem so simple for us.

~~~
songshu
Pakistan is not a Middle Eastern country

~~~
dasil003
Yeah and my dad (Brazilian) is fond of saying that Brazil is not a Latin
American country because of language and cultural divide between Spanish vs
Portuguese colonies.

Fine, both of those are valid beliefs. But you shouldn't feel the need to
inject them as a tangent in random conversations to educate people. You will
never ever win this battle.

~~~
DrJokepu
But Pakistan is not a Middle Eastern country. It's not a belief, it's a fact.
I think he was right to point that out.

~~~
dasil003
Names are human constructs not facts.

------
smcl
This doesn't sound like a great idea. A friend of mine with an Indian passport
and a valid UK work visa was visiting Northern Ireland and decided to try to
sneak a quick bus trip into Republic of Ireland. Their bus was randomly
stopped and everyone's passports were checked (these are pretty infrequent, I
believe), the police quickly noticed they didn't have a valid visa for
Ireland, took their details and then took them back to the North. Later that
year he had a bit of trouble visiting mainland EU, the immigration officials
cited his previous attempt to illegally enter Ireland - evidently it had been
logged in some EU immigration database and can follow you around for a while.

And this is just Ireland, I imagine the repercussions of getting denied from
the US are a little more severe.

~~~
drrotmos
Being denied entry isn't illegal, and isn't necessarily going to adversely
affect future entry attempts. Overstaying your visa, or illegally entering a
country on the other hand is a crime. If you have committed crimes in a
country, you _will_ have a harder time getting in next time.

~~~
usaphp
Overstaying your visa is not a crime. The Immigration and Nationality Act
(INA) contains only civil penalties for an immigrant who overstays her visa.
This means that immigrants with an expired visa will not be charged criminally
or serve time in jail.

Entering country illegally however IS a crime.

------
mherdeg
Does Spain have an equivalent to the UK government's "forced marriage unit" (
[https://www.gov.uk/forced-marriage](https://www.gov.uk/forced-marriage) ), an
agency whose job is to help people in this kind of situation?

~~~
mherdeg
Looking closer — I think no?. Some of the European countries which criminalize
forced marriage, according to this June 2012 survey (
[https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachm...](https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/157829/forced-
marriage-response.pdf) ), include: Austria, Belgium, Cyprus, Denmark, and
Germany.

In Austria: "Forcing someone into marriage is a distinct criminal offence in
Austria. Austrians and people living in Austria are facing legal consequences
for such actions only if this kind of marriage occurs within the country’s
borders. From January 2012 the Federal Government has amended the anti-forced
marriage law to allow prosecutors to press charges against perpetrators over
forced marriages abroad.

In Belgium: "Forcing someone to marry is a criminal offence."

In Cyprus: "Forcing someone to marry is a criminal offence."

In Denmark: "The Danish Criminal Code includes an offence of unlawful
coercion, prohibiting the use of threats by a person to force another person
to do something against their will. This offence would apply to marriage if
threats were used to force a person into marriage against their will. The
penalty for this offence ranges from a fine to a period of imprisonment not
exceeding two years."

In Germany: "Forcing someone to marry is a distinct criminal offence and can
be punished by up to five years in prison. The law also gives non-German
citizens who are forced by their husbands/families to leave the country after
their marriage a legal right to return to Germany. "

I don't know what I'd do in this situation — I'm not even sure I can
understand what it's like. But with a Schengen visa and Spanish residency, one
option might be to move to Germany and seek protection from the government
there. This is a tough situation for people to be in.

------
MichaelGG
If she's coming over to live, then she should be denied entry anyways. Perhaps
just stay straight-out "I'm moving here." Maybe throw in something about maybe
getting a job "To have more money for our family." Neither of those are total
lies, but any CBP agent that's not asleep should block entry. She might even
just tell them the situation, ask to see a supervisor and go from there. They
may be able to provide something better on her record that way.

Although it can really depend on who she gets. My wife came over to see me
after I moved to the US after just losing our daughter. She had a 10-year
multi-entry visa, had come and gone several times before. They held her for a
couple of hours, went through all her stuff (which is to be expected), but
then demanded to know why she was sad about losing a child, why she had
written about her child if she had died, and on and on. My wife decided she'll
never fly through the US again.

Once I got an agent, first thing out of his mouth was "you're going to miss
your flight". When I said he didn't know when it was (I had a 3 hour layover),
he said it didn't matter, he'd make sure. Other times, they barely even glance
up and wave me through.

~~~
turar
> When I said he didn't know when it was (I had a 3 hour layover), he said it
> didn't matter, he'd make sure.

Why did (s)he do that? Did you miss your flight?

~~~
MichaelGG
Every now and then, I get a CBP agent that is having a bad day. Most of the
time they are professional, polite, and efficient enough. This guy went on
about all sorts of things, including stating that attending a tradeshow
required a work visa.

I didn't miss my flight because I had a long layover. He took my passport and
sent me to secondary control. Upon admittance, one of the agents there rolled
his eyes and speedily got me taken care of and on my way. He did succeed at
wasting 40 minutes of my time though.

------
tarekmoz
I think this will work:

\- "What's the purpose of your visit?" \- "I will be looking for a job in the
U.S." \- "But you have a visitor's VISA here" \- "Oh.. mmm.. but I am coming
here to work" \- "I am sorry this is not going to work out"

~~~
drrotmos
Or, rather than lying to the border agent (which I believe is a crime in the
US, isn't it?), she could simply tell the truth: that she's visiting her
husband and that she'll most likely be coerced to overstay her visa.

That should get her entry denied too.

~~~
outworlder
Precisely. Not sure if it is a crime or not (probably!), but lying is never a
good idea, specially to an immigration agent.

Just telling the truth should suffice. The only issue is if it will cause
trouble later on should she try to enter again. I assume it would.

EDIT: There is probably a 'alien will probably overstay' flag somewhere. Not a
'alien will overstay provided she is still married to an out of status alien'.

------
runarberg
It's a pity I can't answer on the SE but I have experience in this matter, I
came to the US (through Newark) once with a visa to stay for 6 months, without
proof of financial support, without contact information for somebody in the
US, reluctance to tell my purpose, and a tent as my means of accommodation. I
was taken to a back room where they were going to deny me entry, but I manage
to persuade them that I had an uncle living in Texas and a friend in Oregon.

So my advice is, go there without money, accommodation, contacts or purpose,
and they won't let you in.

------
logfromblammo
Hacker News is very qualified to give this person technical advice, but her
problem originates in human relationships, and the solution requires some
amount of diplomacy.

Everything we say on this matter is useless until confirmed by an outside
party not afflicted by an ultrarational engineer brain. That said...

In recent years, the US government has ramped up its training for federal
employees on recognizing and interdicting human trafficking. It might suffice
to tell the border agent, "I have been subjected to a forced marriage, and the
man's family is attempting to import me to the United States against my will.
Once here, I will be little more than a slave. But if I refuse, I will
probably be murdered. Will you help me?"

This is likely to make a bad situation worse, but that's the best I can come
up with. The lady is probably better off traveling to a Germanic or
Scandinavian country and appealing to a feminist organization instead of
getting on a plane to the US.

------
Nursie
Go to the Spanish authorities, tell them the situation (illegally living in
the USA) and that you fear for your life and need asylum in Spain.

F*ck the sort of family that marries you to someone 15 years older against
your will, frankly.

~~~
vacri
Would forced marriage be okay if the age difference was smaller?

------
einhverfr
I think the traditional solution is to go say yes, move in. Start breaking
things (dishes and stuff) until he asks for a divorce. Bonus points for making
it plausibly an accident. Go home. At least that is what I have read about
Morocco where the divorce rate is relatively high.

It seems relatively common elsewhere as well, in my experience.

One of the things that is not to like (especially if you are a woman) in many
Middle Eastern countries is that the household matriarch is the husband's
mother and the households are patrilocal. This means that if you are a woman
and you get married, you end up as a very low-status individual until your
first son is married and then you have status and power to make his wife as
miserable as you were.

So it isn't a good situation but one thing to keep in mind is that being in a
more individualistic culture gives you options. My recommendation would not be
to try to get denied entry at all but to go. Then evaluate your options, build
contacts, and see what you need to do. The US culture and legal system doesn't
support the same kinds of things and this can bring some power.

------
dobbsbob
Easy, when asked why you are are entering the states say 'no reason' and get a
24hr to year long ban. I've tested this when my idiot friend gave that
response while we were driving across the peace arch border.

~~~
pyre
Might be different if you have a Canadian passport, than if you have a
Pakistani passport.

------
whizzkid
Most of suggestions people give on this problem is like this;

Problem: Site doesn't work in IE

Solution: Then don't use it.

It is not that easy.

Her problem is really complex one. As i can not answer it on site (protected
question), i will try to give some ideas to her here.

She needs to somehow trick the family members and the husband in US. One
solution can be getting a fake paper that wants her to give information about
the people she is related in US. This can stop family members asking her to
come to US, since her husband is not legally living there. But connecting this
fake paper to her travel to US is little tricky. Family needs to somehow
believe that it is coming from government. Maybe women rights association can
help with this one, if she can reach them.

The other option can be to somehow make them believe that she took the flight
but they send her back. In this case she needs to find a really good excuse
that family members will believe and will not investigate further.

If you think these are reasonable ideas, please let her know on
travel.stackexchange, because i can not.

------
myzerox
"I want to start a company, employ US citizens, pay taxes, and drive GDP
growth."

~~~
terranstyler
The officials deciding about your status most probably couldn't care less.

This is not an opinion but my experience (I tried exactly that line tough in a
different country)

------
vpeters25
My advice to her: NEVER get in trouble with any country's government on
purpose, completely abandon this line of thought and figure out something
else. I bet she would rather live with her "stupid in-laws" than in a Federal
PMITA facility.

~~~
jessaustin
IANAL, I doubt that the penalty for being denied entry is anal rape in a
federal penitentiary. I thought the penalty was, you know, _being denied
entry_.

------
grdvnl
One other option worth considering:

1\. Loose your passport 2\. Get a new passport 3\. Apply for new US visa to
keep parents happy 4\. Get rejected at the visa office

Just avoids re-entry, and buys time may be till she is done with her college.

------
disputin
I am clearly not a lawyer: if you tell passport control that you lost your
drugs on the plane, there will be no evidence to prosecute you, but they
probably won't let you in.

More seriously, just don't get on the plane, then after a period of time
contact your family and tell them you got refused entry. Spend a day or two at
the airport or a nearby hotel.

~~~
fleitz
No no no, please do not mention anything about drugs, you will get a lifetime
ban.

~~~
mrcasual
Yes, but that one sure way to get denied entry.

Under Sec. 212 (8 U.S.C.1182) you are ineligible to receive visas and
ineligible to be admitted to the United States if you 'voluntarily admit to
having committed a crime involving moral turpitude

Here's a recent story:
[http://www.vancouversun.com/news/White+Rock+woman+barred+fro...](http://www.vancouversun.com/news/White+Rock+woman+barred+from+after+admitting+marijuana/8865511/story.html)

------
spc476
I'm surprised no one came up with the "NO-FLY" list excuse. If she goes to the
airport alone, that's trivial---she goes to the airport, waits an hour, comes
back and says, "I was refused because I am on the US' no-fly list." The US
does not confirm nor deny any name on the list, so it's hard to check.

------
tantaman
Interesting story but I hope it doesn't spread. Would suck if her family sees
this and figures out it is her.

------
anonymfus
Easiest way is to strike out your visa in your passport.

------
alexeisadeski3
Every single piece of advice amongst the top comments over there is straight
up idiotic.

------
einhverfr
An obvious answer is go to the US and sue for divorce, and return to Pakistan?

~~~
aestra
Except their marriage is probably a Pakistani one.

~~~
einhverfr
Question: Will Pakistan recognize the divorce as long as they were living in
the US at the time? My bet would be on yes.

~~~
aestra
An Islamic marriage
([http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marriage_in_Islam](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marriage_in_Islam))
is between a man and the wali of a woman, who gives her to the husband to be
his wife, NOT a contract between the two members of the marriage. A wali is a
"guardian" of a women. (or really, owner)

She needs consent from her wali. Pakistan can just say "did your wali sign off
on this? Nope? Well that's not a valid divorce."

There's no actual legal recourse for not accepting legal agreements made in
other states. Hell, many states in the US don't recognize legal (homosexual)
marriages from other states.

~~~
einhverfr
But Pakistan has a hybrid Islamic/British legal system. This becomes a
conflict of laws question and I dont think you can simply ask "is it Islamic?"

------
ef4
I know better than to try to give advice when I can't relate at all to her
situation.

But I would just like to take this opportunity to say "fuck you" to her
relatives in the United States. Economic opportunity and personal liberty are
a package deal, you want one without the other and you're playing with fire.

You're guaranteed to lose, either quickly or slowly. Quickly if this young
woman continues down the path she's clearly already on and calls down the
weight of the state on your heads. Slowly if you win this round, only to see
your grandchildren grow up fully-Americanized.

~~~
rjzzleep
uh ok, i tell you what. i grew up in germany, i'm highly educated, i speak
fluent german without accent(you know like most people that were born in the
us, speak english without an accent). in fact i speak 4 languages fluent+ a
little of a couple others. everyone that had to deal with me on a personal
level tried to hire me at some point.

when i came back from the states i met a buttload of people that were telling
me how racist the americans are. so i asked one just a few days back.

"tell me, so everyones telling me how racist they are in the south, and it's
kinda true, but how do you guys treat black people over here anyway?"

you know what she answered?

"it's different"

when i entered the train station with my bike yesterday, i almost got beaten
up by security guards. you know why? because i got into the train station with
a bike, and well just because ... ;) and you know what the two germans did
that saw that? they told me this:

"you better run away, they might come down and beat you up"

talk about opportunity. yes, germany gives you the opportunity to study. for
free. in some of the best universities of the planet. but you pay the price in
a different manner.

you know how much the TSA sucks? you wanna know why you don't hear about
patdowns in germany? because they're not even newsworthy.

edit: people make their choices, so what the op does is up to them. i consider
it a little foolish. but on other hand think about it. it doesn't seem like
she wants to get banned for life. otherwise she could have just posted some
stupid thing on twitter like others have done

~~~
dTal
In my experience, most people that were born in the U.S. speak English with an
atrocious accent.

~~~
webkike
This is incredibly subjective, and I would argue altogether untrue, although
that is also subjective.

------
vladimirralev
Just fill out this form on entry
[http://www.usvisalawyers.co.uk/images/I-94form.gif](http://www.usvisalawyers.co.uk/images/I-94form.gif)
with a lot of "Yes".

------
htns
All her problems boil down to a lack of money. She should just take a student
loan to become "financially independent". No idea if she has access to one
though

~~~
Pitarou
No. It's not that simple.

Of course, money can solve a lot of problems, but if she openly defies and (in
their eyes) dishonours her family, she can expect retaliation. And they will
use the people she loves and cares about the most to get at her.

~~~
htns
She is fully expecting to dishonor her family in the near future, just not
before they have paid for her college.

~~~
Pitarou
And not before she's got her mom safely out of Pakistan.

------
johnny635
Now that's a passive aggressive way to solve issues...

~~~
Gracana
Active aggression from a Pakistani wife in an arranged marriage may be
imprudent.

------
etanazir
Be careful not to fall down into one of the sex slave pits that bespeckle
western civilization.

------
sergiotapia
Wow what trash suggestions that woman is getting. "Just report him."

What the fuck SE community? Just ruin the lives of more than one family living
in the states just because this girl is too chicken to just say no - from
thousands of miles away no less.

~~~
marquis
She's not chicken. Saying that is disrespectful to the culture she is coming
from. She is trying to find the most diplomatic way to extricate herself from
an arranged marriage without destroying her connections to her family.

~~~
LaGrange
Please note that when she says about different culture she doesn’t mean even
she respects it, in any other way that you might „respect” a bully. It’s not
about destroying her connection with family, it’s about avoiding violence
against her, her mother and her sister.

~~~
marquis
Yes that was my meaning, thanks for clarifying. I'm well against arranged
marriages but support whatever she needs to do to get through this
diplomatically.

------
yason
The reason why this was asked is baffling to me.

If you don't want to go, then _do not go_. I assume the AP was an adult.
Adults don't need to resort to tricks like trying to get rejected: adults can
just reject the invite themselves.

~~~
Fuxy
Some people let themselves be force into things. I find it quite sad that they
lack the strength to just say no.

Edit: Peer pressure is a bitch especially when it's from your own family but
don't let yourself be manipulated by it.

Edit2: Some people have pointed out that it's not easy and in certain cultures
be enough to kill a person.

Now it's amazing that this in this day and age that is acceptable but i guess
you can get away with anything if you say the magic word: "It's my
religion/culture".

However ask yourself this: I have 1 life am i willing to spend it all in a
cage with some people i barely know making the rules?

If the answer is yes the the give up already you don't have a choice if the
answer is no do whatever it takes.

~~~
levosmetalo
It's not only about personal strength, no one is strong enough to change deep
cultural heritage and go alone against 1000 year long culture in which woman
has no say. From the comments, it's obvious it's a forced marriage and that
the OP couldn't do anything about it. It's not about her husbands family, it's
also her family that first "sold" or forced her to marry, and then they want
her to live with that guy. Who knows, may be some blood is in danger to be
spilled if she plainly refuse to go.

That all being said, I wish her good look to find a way to do it without
putting herself in any kind of danger.

~~~
Fuxy
Why do you assume that? Just because she's from Pakistan?

Regardless my culture isn't that rosy either I just choose to reject it and
was lucky that my family didn't really care.

Regardless if you're life is in danger that's the equivalent of slavery and
their not your family anymore their your masters.

If you're OK with living that kind of life fine and just give up and go to the
US otherwise you need to disappear and break contact with everybody you ever
met.

Either fight or give up it can't be both.

~~~
smtddr
I'm going to try to explain this; but words really won't do it justice. I
cannot convey the strength of "cultural bonds" with text on a computer screen.

As someone from a Nigerian family, we too normally have very strong family
bonds. You can't just do whatever you want. The closest thing I could compare
it to is kinda of like, _all_ your family is considered immediate-family. In
the same way you must balance decisions with your spouse you also must
consider everyone's feelings & wants - Even people who are not logically
impacted by your decisions and live 1,000+ miles away.

Just throwing away the family network brings you great shame. Yes, pure logic
says _" Why should I care what a bunch of elders 3,000 miles away think? They
know nothing of what I'm going through."_ ...but somehow... you can't just do
that. It's a major part of who you are and breaking those bonds will you empty
inside and dishonored by your family(maybe friends too). This is even more the
case with women of the culture. It's much easier to create an external reason
to defy your family like this lady is trying to do - so it looks like _" Hey,
I tried to do what you told me. Something else got in the way! Sorry! But you
still love me, right?"_

This will probably sound like nonsense to anyone not part of this type of
cultural system.

~~~
Fuxy
You're probably right i don't understand it. That's a lot of energy and effort
put into pleasing people whom can and probably do have ulterior motives just
so you can belong to a group.

Is that group really wort all that effort?

Does belonging to that group get you where you want to go?

The answer for me was a resounding no but it could be different for you.

There's very few people worth my respect and consideration but I certainly
wouldn't bother to please and entire village.

If you're not pissing people off you're doing something wrong.

~~~
smtddr
Well, ya know the saying _" It takes a village to raise a child."_. That same
mindset assumes the entire village is the family. So if you grow up in that
world, you don't want to disappoint that community.

 _> >If you're not pissing people off you're doing something wrong._

I definitely try to run my life as opposite from this as reasonably possible.
"Reasonably" being the word that's very debatable.

------
Fuxy
This can be solved with just the following:

"Honey I love you but i can go through that ordeal i had last time again. I
love my life here and i don't want to go we're going to have to find another
way."

If you can't be straight with your husband you might as well divorce now it's
not going to get easier.

~~~
aurumpotest
As she said on stackexchange, she was forced to marry her husband, who is 15
years older than she is, by her family. So I'd guess it's not as simple as
that.

~~~
Fuxy
My bad must have missed that part. See my other comments then.

