

Flash is dying a death by 1,000 cuts, and that's a good thing - yarapavan
http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2015/aug/24/adobe-flash-dying-amazon-google-chrome?

======
codeshaman
While I agree that it might be time for Flash (the proprietary plugin) to be
retired, I'm totally against dancing on it's grave, as is the tone of this
article.

We have to respect it for what it brought to the world.

Flash has enabled many technologies and companies, like online video
(youtube?), music playback (....) , games, cartoons and so on.

I remember how amazed I was by the perfection of the first flash website that
I've seen. You could interact with spheres, it made high quality sounds and
had cool animations and transitions. That was in Netscape Navigator 4.

This was absolutely impossible with HTML back then. It's still pretty
difficult to achieve the same results with HTML5 today.

Flash enabled artists. Nearly all my artist friends have started or played
around with flash. Some became animators, some game designers, some UX
designers, etc.

I know programmers who were artists playing around with flash and then they
got interested in ActionScript and are now full time programmers.

It was their digital classroom.

So let's not forget all this good stuff when talking about the old man. Let
him live his final years of retirement in peace.

And who knows, maybe if Adobe open sources it, it might even rejuvenate and
have a spectacular come back ?

~~~
cousin_it
Yeah. Say what you will about the the bad old times of Dreamweaver and Flash,
but back then, visual artists could actually contribute to the Web without
going through "web programmer" gatekeepers. Unfortunately programmers have
recaptured the power since then, declared the old technologies broken in ways
that only programmers can understand, and brought nothing in return.

IMO that's not an accident. Many programmers would also love to kill off
Excel, because it's messy and not a "proper database" or something. And if the
rumors are true, HyperCard was killed because "you could do everything in
Cocoa and ProjectBuilder instead". User-empowering tech always feels messy and
unprincipled to programmers.

~~~
kitsunesoba
I don't think developers have problems with user-enabling technologies (at
least I don't). What we do have problems with, however, are technologies that
suck away our battery life and CPU time with little or no return, all while
bringing a steady stream of exploitable security holes. If Adobe had actually
made a serious effort to make Flash a lean, secure machine it'd still be
around. Instead, they decided to just keep tacking on new features rather than
spending several releases doing heavy optimization and only reactively dealt
with security, so here we are.

The bottom line is that nobody but Adobe is to blame for the death of Flash.

~~~
BatFastard
If you want to blame anyone for stealing your battery life, blame it on the
programmers. They were the using who took and easy to use (therefore easy to
abuse) tech and misused it. Does Flash have more security holes then other
techs? Maybe, but I do know that since it has a billion users, it is a prime
target for every hacker. However I will agree that Adobe has drank the cool
aid when it comes to the broken model which is HTML5, CSS, and WebGL

------
greggman
I'm not 100% sure the death of Flash is a good thing. Maybe the death of
"flash the buggy proprietary plugin" is good but there are tens of thousands
if not hundreds of thousands of devs that are productive with flash and not
likely to be as productive in HTML5. It would be nice if somehow Flash could
export to HTML5 directly.

That said, Flash still has features that are missing from HTML5.

1\. One file distribution.

AFAICT HTML5 has no real ability to do this

2\. Easy streaming

I suppose you can break a HTML5 app into multiple files but with flash there's
one file and it can start running the content of that file when only some
small percentage of it has downloaded. And, it just magically happens or
rather it's super easy to setup. Reproducing that in HTML5 is a huge chore.

3\. Not running when not visible

HTML5 has no way to stop an animation when offscreen. If you have a
requestAnimationFrame Canvas or WebGL or element based animation and your
element is scrolled off the screen HTML5 will still execute your code. Flash
will not. So, blogs aggregating flash content work. Blogs aggregating
canvas/webgl content don't even exist or unlike flash each item needs to be on
its own page. There are some workaround but they require you to modify all
content where as Flash you can use 3rd party content and still get this.

4\. Can copy to clipboard

Yes I know that's considered "unsafe" and yet nearly every website that needs
that feature uses flash for it. Google Docs and GMail both use it even though
Google's Chrome team claims they won't put the feature in HTML5 because it's
unsafe. They need to make up their minds.

I'm sure people who are more familiar with flash can name more features they
wish would make it to HTML5.

And on top of that I can easily block flash. I can't block HTML5 so much :P

~~~
TazeTSchnitzel
All of these can be done with HTML and JS, and (bar maybe clipboard) have
worked for years:

> 1\. One file distribution.

> AFAICT HTML5 has no real ability to do this

We've had this since the 90s, in the form of MIME HTML (.mhtml) files. We also
have data: URIs, another approach, which has better browser support.

Nobody ever bothers with this stuff, but it is there and very easy to do. You
can literally just open an HTML file in IE, press Ctrl+S and save an MHTML one
with all the assets bundled into one.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MHTML](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MHTML)

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Data_URI_scheme](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Data_URI_scheme)

> 2\. Easy streaming

This can actually be done in HTML as well, if you execute your JS when the
DOM's ready, rather than when the page has loaded. jQuery users have done a
very weak form of this for years. Again, though, nobody seems to bother.

[https://developer.mozilla.org/en-
US/docs/Web/Events/DOMConte...](https://developer.mozilla.org/en-
US/docs/Web/Events/DOMContentLoaded)

> 3\. Not running when not visible

> HTML5 has no way to stop an animation when offscreen.

HTML5's had the ability to detect if the window is visible or active for a
long time now, but nobody uses it.

[https://developer.mozilla.org/en-
US/docs/Web/Guide/User_expe...](https://developer.mozilla.org/en-
US/docs/Web/Guide/User_experience/Using_the_Page_Visibility_API)

> 4\. Can copy to clipboard

Internet Explorer had this years ago, and you can do this with HTML5 too, it's
now standard. Strangely, nobody uses it.

[http://stackoverflow.com/a/30810322/736162](http://stackoverflow.com/a/30810322/736162)

> And on top of that I can easily block flash. I can't block HTML5 so much :P

NoScript!

[https://addons.mozilla.org/en-
US/firefox/addon/noscript/?src...](https://addons.mozilla.org/en-
US/firefox/addon/noscript/?src=search)

~~~
riffraff
MHTML was _awesome_ when I was still using IE. It worked almost flawlessly
(probably also cause sites were simpler) and I never understood why other
browsers didn't support it.

~~~
TazeTSchnitzel
It's been an RFC since at _least_ 18 years ago ([0], preceded by [1]), which
makes it all the more odd that some browsers (Firefox particularly) don't
support it.

There's been an open bug for 16 years :( [2] (and a counterpart for saving for
15: [3])

[0] [https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2557](https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2557)

[1] [https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2110](https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2110)

[2]
[https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=18764](https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=18764)

[3]
[https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=40873](https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=40873)

------
hacker_9
Just because it's popular to hate on Flash everyone forgets about the good
times it brought.

Back in school, flash games were all the rage and you could bet if we were on
the computers for a lesson 90% of the time would be spent on the helicopter
game or motorbike sport!

~~~
sobkas
How it's even relevant? Just because some people enjoyed flash in the past
doesn't changes the fact that now it is a menace and everyone would be much
better without it.

So pack you misguided nostalgia and put it next to your Sonic the Hedgehog
figurines(they are dolls and you know it).

~~~
hacker_9
'menace' is a bit too strong of a word. Alternatives for development are a
good thing, just look at the native world and the constant innovation that
goes on there (go, rust etc). This idea that everything on the web should be
shoehorned into html + javascript is hugely flawed because the ideas behind
those technologies are so antiquated. The web model is completely broken but
everyone just keeps on ignoring the root problem and just patch over it with
'innovative' frameworks like angular or react...

------
Aoyagi
Yes, it'll be great when all Flash advertisements with loud music become HTML5
ones and you'll need a 3rd party tool to block them. Absolutely the best thing
along with killing off one of the most powerful and yet relatively easy to
develop with tools on the web.

But hey, at least I was reminded of this site
[http://flashvhtml.com/](http://flashvhtml.com/)

~~~
exodust
Interesting, hadn't seen that.

Flash version runs a lot smoother (as expected)... Firefox, desktop. Sound
didn't work in the HTML version at all, and frame-rate was slower.

------
exodust
These articles are getting boring and repetitive. "Someone think of the
children" is the only line I haven't seen yet in these copy and paste yawn-
fests. This one actually squeezes "dying" and "death" into the one headline.

Flash is a tool that provides more power and performance in games targeting
laptop/desktop browsers who have the Flash player - and there's millions out
there.

Adobe have stated the new focus and direction of Flash is console-quality
games and "premium video". The latter can be argued all day as to whether HTML
is completely up to the task. But it sounds like Adobe don't give a damn about
web page ads. They moved on ages ago judging by the roadmap which was written
ages ago.

There's Adobe Air for those who want to use the Adobe Flash tools to make
games, and target native mobile platforms. It's completely reasonable.

We all [should] know that HTML5 is not up to achieving console-quality games.
Nor should it be. The current HTML game scene is dominated by 1980s looking
games in the browser. That's fine, but the thing is they're not even as good
as 1980s games, and they don't perform consistently cross-browser, often not
loading depending on the browser. Or, they load but "no sound" or terrible
frame-rate, or other glitches. Maybe a conflict with your ad-blocker. At least
Flash is sandboxed from your browsing environment, with all assets nicely
folded into the one binary for highly compact, efficient delivery.

Makes you laptop fan spin up? Yeah.. like playing just about any modern game
does.

I actually hope Adobe keeps innovating and improving Flash. I'm a fan of open
source, but I also make exceptions for things that are up to version 18 and
been with us since the 90s. That's just me. If you don't want the flash player
on your computer, then simply uninstall it.

------
shultays

      Flash is dying! - 2015
      Flash is dying! - 2014
      Flash is dying! - 2013
      Flash is dying! - 2012
      Flash is dying! - 2011
      Flash is dying! - 2010
    

Although I am hopeful for this year

~~~
maw
Realistically, sadly, it was never going to be a sudden thing. When it does
happen, I don't think many people even notice until someone prominent makes
noise about it.

This isn't the worst possible outcome by any means.

------
wet_noodle
I really don't know what benefits open sourcing flash would have, do you?
JavaScript is in many ways more dangerous as it does not operate in the same
security sandbox as flash. I can not specify a customized Java Script
interpreter that visitors must use when they visit my website, they will
always be relegated to what has been implemented by their browser. There is a
big difference between open-source and free. Open-sourcing flash would most
likely lead to a few dozen clones, just look at linux or android. Instead of a
unified platform now there would be multiple variations. You would have to
make sure your project ran on every single version in order for anyone to even
see what you where trying to do. I think firefox's impetus has more to do with
them justifying Shumway ( and continuing their funding) then anything.

------
gonchar
Ok, kill Flash. Then you will get HTML5 banners :) without simplest redraw
region optimization inside, so you will get much more hot from your computer.

it's funny but Flash IDE is the best tool nowadays to create HTML5 animations.

Also Flash is used for crossplatform apps and game development for social
networks, mobile and desktop platforms. I really doubt that million players of
Candy Crush will remove Flash Player :) Top 25 Facebook games are made with
Flash :) Market is still huge. There are no any alternative to Flash nowadays,
Unity3D doesn't work in Chrome, WebGL export is a shit(we are all waiting for
a new standard), HTML5 game development is really expensive and sometimes
impossible.

Time will show.

------
ufmace
I don't know enough to write it myself, but it would be neat to see someone
who did write a really good history of the evolution of the dynamic web. We've
had so many technologies rise and fall, Java, ActiveX, Flash, Silverlight, and
now HTML5/JS, plus however many dozens of minor players that never really
caught on. It'd be nice to have a comprehensive record of who pushed what, how
they all evolved and caught on, or didn't, why the technologies that lost out
did so, and what the pros and cons were.

------
scrabble
I want Flash to die. What I need is a service that will transcode video to HLS
and MPEG-DASH for live stream and VOD. Surprisingly, it's hard to find one
that's really excellent.

------
synja
It's a shame that most of the people espousing Javascript were watching Power
Rangers when Flash's real contribution to the web was being recognized.

There are a few archetypes of flash haters and they almost all fall into one
of these categories:

* Tech Bloggers looking for a salacious story, considering Flash is Dead articles always get a lot of debate (and clicks)

* Young kids who lack the historical perspective to understand Flash's contributions to the web and just want to bully something unpopular.

* Mac Users who for years suffered a lot of stability and performance problems from the poorly supported Mac Flash plugin and have never let it go.

* Ex-Flash developers who feel that Adobe abandoned and betrayed them by their silence on the "Flash is Dead" issue and turned on the technology that predicated their careers.

* Security experts who were sick of the constant patching of their network's machines due to the continual trickle of discovered flaws.

* Impressional engineers who never researched anything objective about Flash but heard something from one of the above archetypes and blindly follow it.

* Brendan Eich, who in his quest to globally dominate the world with Javascript, threw Flash under the bus publicly many times.

Adobe has done several things to fundamentally address their concerns:

\- They released auto-updating plugins (albeit too late in my opinion) so they
could patch players on their own.

\- They doubled down to make the Mac client more secure and performant (albeit
too late in my opinion)

\- They increased the frequency of updates, including biweekly beta releases,
and quarterly major updates. Nobody knows this though.

What Adobe has not done is market Flash (or its little brother AIR) in any
way. They have made some public announcements that they are not abandoning the
runtimes but it's hard to know when that will change, so it's almost as if
they never said it at all.

I have a very unique take on the situation. I think plugins are a superior way
to distribute content technology. It is faster to innovate than open standards
development, and provides a more consistent quality than fragmented browser-
based development.

My analogy is 3D printers. One day 3D printers will be able to make super
complex things such as watches or maybe even cars. Do you really think Rolex
or Tesla would adopt such a technology? Hell no. And the reason is simple:
your product is reduced to the quality of the crappiest 3D printer out there.
The quality is no longer in the content maker's hands, but in the 3D printer
manufacturer's hands. Your only option is to reduce the quality of your own
content to the lowest common denominator of all the 3D printers out there.

And that's _exactly_ what we now face in an HTML5 future. Flash provided a
very consistent presentation of content across all browsers and even mobile
during its brief life on Android. Flash would auto update major features every
3 months, giving access to very advanced GPU based rendering features. Now we
have to wait around for every browser out there to adopt WebGL standards. Some
have done it well, others half-assed it, and on Mobile, forget about it. And
even WebGL is now an outdated standard now that glNext is coming. So we have
to start all over again.

HTML5 enthusiasts sure are patient people. If they knew how fast Adobe can get
updates/security fixes out to a very high % of people, they'd be green with
envy.

~~~
BatFastard
Well said snja! Much as I dislike the loss of control from using propietary
software, I do agree that Flash is greatly superior to HTML5 and javascript
with one major exception. Lack of interest from the community at large. Adobe
needs to present a 5 year plan, so that developers can know that Flash wont be
going away anytime soon.

------
juggernautq
Please help me understand this obsession about building a secure software.

I understand there are sensitive information like bank account, email
address(maybe? if you are important). But most of stuff on your computer is
crap for, I'd say, 99% of the users(me included). And for an average user the
convenience trumps everything.

All of this is fine if there is a perfect replacement for flash. No, there
isn't. I don't like Html5, for one thing it is not as smooth, if you use
progress bar to drag and drop, you can feel the difference.

Hence.. I really don't appreciated some security fanatics in mozilla disable
flash weeks ago. I appreciate that you assume we are all Hillary Clinton.
Really dude, I don't care my computer got hacked, there is all crap on it.
Take a look yourself. Now if you excuse me, I'd like to watch some dancing
cat.

~~~
joonoro
> Please help me understand this obsession about building a secure software.

You probably already know this, but it's so your things don't get stolen and
your computer doesn't get exploited and possibly used against other people's
computers. Wouldn't you agree that these are bad things?

> most of stuff on your computer is crap

And the 1% (such as your bank information) is the most important and would
affect you the most if exploited, wouldn't you say?

> for an average user the convenience trumps everything.

You're completely right, which is why Flash wasn't disabled until things got
_really_ bad.

> All of this is fine if there is a perfect replacement for flash. No, there
> isn't.

This is also a valid point that could be argued for.

~~~
juggernautq
> You probably already know this, but it's so your things don't get stolen and
> your computer doesn't get exploited and > possibly used against other
> people's computers. Wouldn't you agree that these are bad things?

In general, yes, these are bad things. But it is all about trade off, would
you expose your bank account to watch some cat video.. maybe not. Would you
expose your browser history to view some hot girl, to me, at least, yes I will
do it in VM.

The current software world basically just kills off that possibility of me
saying "yes, I'd like the trade some personal info for convenience. "

