
Wind Energy Is One of the Cheapest, and It's Getting Cheaper - ph0rque
https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/plugged-in/wind-energy-is-one-of-the-cheapest-sources-of-electricity-and-its-getting-cheaper/
======
menacingly
I don't really know what I'm talking about, but I bring this up when we talk
about wind energy and I've never had a satisfying answer. Maybe that's due to
not knowing what I'm talking about.

Since the wind does other stuff beyond just feeling breezy, it stands to
reason that there exists some level of wattage we could pull out of it that
would have undesirable effects.

If there were no wind tomorrow, we can agree that this would be bad. Are there
lower levels of energy depletion where the effects would be subtler and harder
to anticipate? Would pulling 0.5% of the wind's energy result in shifts in
weather patterns, even if it's localized?

I mean, since we're collectively so good at breaking things, maybe it's worth
assuming we will fill some hypothetical area with as many contraptions to take
energy from the wind as we can, and that these contraptions will get
increasingly effective.

EDIT: There are some great replies to this, and the minds of HN are always an
awesome resource to tap. I guess I can't shake the vague spooky feeling I get
from interfering with a massive system that feeds into itself in unpredictable
ways, but it sounds like ruthless expansion of some massive drain on the wind
system is unlikely/impossible.

~~~
ambicapter
The effect of wind turbines on birds and other wildlife is probably far more
important, and also routinely gets ignored imo.

~~~
zeamaize
That's a conservative straw man. Skyscrapers have much more impact and no one
notices.

~~~
EGreg
If conservatives care so much about wildlife why do they support things that
lead to deforestation and desertification and loss of biodiversity and
pollution and...?

~~~
smcl
To be a conservative is to hold multiple contradictory positions at once, many
of which directly harm your own health or well-being

------
samcheng
It's cheap in the places that are windy. One big challenge (mentioned
tangentially in the article) is in moving this cheap energy from the windy
center of the continent to the populated coasts.

The coolest project to tackle this problem (in my opinion) is Tres Amigas, a
superconducting interchange between the west coast grid and the (wind-heavy)
Texas grid.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tres_Amigas_SuperStation](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tres_Amigas_SuperStation)

~~~
jessaustin
Lots of coastline is plenty windy. Why isn't there more offshore wind
generation in USA like there is in other nations? My impression is that rich
people who own land on the coast have no taste and think that offshore wind
generation is an eyesore.

~~~
ccorda
At least with respect to the west coast:

> Unlike the Atlantic Ocean, where offshore wind farms can be bolted into the
> seabed in relatively shallow water, the West Coast's continental shelf
> plunges quickly and steeply.

[http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-offshore-
wind-20160703...](http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-offshore-
wind-20160703-snap-story.html)

~~~
throwaway613834
What's the reason for going offshore? Is the wind not as strong on land?

~~~
philipkglass
Offshore you can install bigger turbines, because sea transportation of
turbine components is not size-limited like rail/road transport. Taller
turbines help to reach wind resources that are stronger and steadier. Also,
even at the same height, offshore wind resources are often better than they
are a few km inland. Finally, offshore wind can supply power to densely
populated coastal areas when there isn't room to build turbines on land.

The disadvantages are higher construction and maintenance costs; waves and
salt water are much more challenging to materials than the ordinary conditions
onshore turbine towers experience.

~~~
edejong
Perfect answer. Another reason, which kind of joins with the density of the
population is the significant noise pollution of larger wind farms.

------
wallace_f
Why cant we factor in the human life and geopolitical costs in to fossil fuel
cost?

The only valid argument in the economist's mind to regulate a market is to
remedy market failures. Fossil fuel addiction create externalities like smog,
global warming, and war; but no consumer has to pay for those costs at the
pump. Instead, they're shouldered by the taxpayer, future generations, and
direct casualties. So we have a classic, textbook market failure here.

If we really add up the true cost of fossil fuels it makes wind look clearly
better.

~~~
an_account
That’s clearly not what this article is about.

But on the subject that you’re talking about, it would be great if the US
started phasing out fossil fuel subsidies.

~~~
ZeroGravitas
The article headline is:

 _" Wind Energy Is One of the Cheapest Sources of Electricity, and It's
Getting Cheaper"_

But their measure of "cheapness" only takes into account direct payments. Once
you account for externalities like people dying of lung diseases, global
warming etc. the headline would be:

 _" Wind Energy has been the Cheapest Source of Electricity for a while now,
and It's still Getting Cheaper"_

Which is a different thing entirely. For example, an EU study from 2014
already found that onshore Wind was the cheapest available power source,
coming in at less than half the price of coal, once you factor in health etc.

Once those well established facts are recognized, the whole conversation about
"when will wind be cheaper" seems a bit irrelevant. When will the so-called
free market stop killing us? would be one alternative headline.

------
dumbfounder
And here's why it doesn't matter for most of the US: energy companies are
regulated to make a percentage of the money they spend. This incentivizes them
to SPEND MORE MONEY for energy so they can make more money. Until we fix that,
most of us are screwed (at least the ones who can't get off or mostly off the
grid).

Sources: My friend who runs an energy company and I also found it here:
[http://blog.aee.net/how-do-electric-utilities-make-
money](http://blog.aee.net/how-do-electric-utilities-make-money)

~~~
cc439
"And here's why it doesn't matter for most of the US: energy companies are
regulated to make a percentage of the money they spend."

This is also found in the ACA (Obamacare) in the form of a minimum medical
loss ratio. Insurers must spend 80% of what they take in from premiums on
direct medical care and their profit is capped at 3% of premiums. It
disincentivizes cost reductions as 3% of $5 billion is a lot more than 3% of
$1 billion.

~~~
juiyout
Apology to bring up Taiwan again in the same thread.

Taiwan's national health insurance was once praised by Michael Porter and
other Nobel prize laureates. It was marveled as the best invention to bring to
the masses. Basically, Taiwan congress establishes a _fixed_ budget for health
care for next year. Then no matter how many patients or how expensive it runs
next year, National Health Insurance Administration pays the hospital
proportionally by assigning "points" to treatments.

For example, pulling one wisdom tooth is 10 points. 1 point is 1 dollar last
year then 10 points earn the hospital 10 dollar last year. This year it may go
down to 0.8 dollar per point then 10 points mean 8.8 dollar due to more
patient visits/treatment higher cost _nationally_. All the while, the cost of
treatment hasn't really changed.

Now when NHI started out, it was indeed 1 TWD per point. Now it has gone to
0.5 TWD per point. (Detail varies, this is the gist of it). Hospital jobs are
not as good as it used to be nowadays.

~~~
brianwawok
What happens if the pay per point is too low to retain employees, and all the
doctors move to the US?

What is to discourage a doctor from doing a 6 point procedure even though a 3
point procedure has a better or same outcome for the patient?

~~~
juiyout
1\. Out of top 200 hospitals in the world, Taiwan has 14 of them only behind
US and Germany. It is nice considering our population is only 23 million.
Clinical technologies and results has been excellent in facial reconstruction,
live transplant, heart transplant, fertility preservation, joint replacement,
to name a few. Talents has been serving global clients where more money can be
earned. (Somewhat like our IT export) Interestingly though, instead of moving
overseas, prospective doctors move into high earning fields where National
Health Insurance does not cover, for example, cosmetic surgeries.

2\. Yes, business nature is to pump the points up. However, there is required
monthly and annual reports to NHI. NHI has complete authority to deduct the
points and fine you if they think you are cheating the system. And here the
best part, you can appeal to the very same NHI for another review. They
usually stand by their original decision from what I have heard. (This sounds
just like Apple and its App Store.)

~~~
brianwawok
That sounds pretty good.

I wonder what it would take to scale to America scale.

~~~
juiyout
It indeed is great for the masses.

For doctors, as you voiced earlier, has been pretty ugly. They have to find
work outside of country or move to other fields trying to earn money from
treatments not covered by NHI.

One more subtle effect is that people start to treat medical service as a
cheap service and it is common to see its abuse. In Taiwan, a piece of candy
is usually more expensive than a pill.

------
mabbo
The only problem is variability. I know that many places have fairly stable
wind 99% if the time, but it's the absolute lowest you need to worry about.

If we are to rely on wind as a power source, we either have to only rely on
its lowest output or else rely on its typical output, but have a second source
that can be easily scaled up and down. The problem is that the good sources of
energy that can scale up and down well and cheaply are coal and natural gas.

Nuclear, by contrast, works best when is outputting constant amounts of
energy.

~~~
biehl
If you really mean that "it's the absolute lowest you need to worry about.",
then Nuclear plants working 99% of the time, but going off-line for
maintenance must really worry you?

Seems like a huge disadvantage for nuclear?

Also the fact that nuclear works best when outputting constant amounts of
energy doesn't really seem to be an advantage -
[https://www.euractiv.com/section/electricity/news/german-
nuc...](https://www.euractiv.com/section/electricity/news/german-nuclear-
damage-shows-atomic-and-renewable-power-are-unhappy-bedfellows/) ?

~~~
mabbo
These are good points, but I think you may be falling into the Nirvana
Fallacy.

These problems will still exist for any power source (planned outages and
following demand). Nuclear is no worse than wind power at these things, so why
does it matter that it doesn't perfectly solve these issues as well?

When there's a planned outage, you can schedule other sources to scale up as
needed. Following demand is hard no matter where the power comes from, but for
wind it's even harder as you can control neither supply nor demand.

There's no ultimate, perfect solution. But I see Nuclear as a good option to
be the major strength of our power systems.

------
fit2rule
I'd be quite happy stepping off the grid and having my own small suite of
power-harvestors, out on the property and so on, and generally share the
overage of the system with any other nomad who needed to charge their suit, so
to speak.

I've sort of come to the personal belief that the way to solve the power
crisis is for us all to be harvesting it from the most local sources, and ..
perhaps .. become less dependent on mass/social- infrastructure, reducing our
group load, decomposing cities, &etc.

The technology is there. I could easily live off the stream and wind energy in
most of the world, personally.

I just don't quite have the harvesting device. I wonder what an
"iEnergyHarvester", y'know .. the cool new disruptive kind .. would look like?

~~~
Caveman_Coder
> "I wonder what an "iEnergyHarvester", y'know .. the cool new disruptive kind
> .. would look like?"

What do you mean by this? Are you simply talking about solar panels/wind
turbine/etc?

~~~
fit2rule
I'm talking about someone like Apple, revolutionizing the local/personal power
harvesting technology, by applying to this problem a similar ethos to that of
the iDevices.

Like, I'd love to have a portable harvester that has a similar degree of
comfort and performance as I'm used to with my laptop and phone. I'm sure
they're out there - but I'd prefer an Apple-style level of quality ..

~~~
Caveman_Coder
How many kW are you wanting this "personal power harvesting" technology to
handle? When I first read your comment I thought you were talking about
handling the energy needs of a single family house or something large like
that.

------
torpfactory
It's really exciting to see wind and solar becoming so cheap to generate. As
the price of wind and solar drop further, grid-scale energy storage will
become more and more attractive (and necessary). Investment dollars chasing
the dream of buying this cheap-to-generate electricity and sell it back to the
grid at prices competitive with fossil sources.

------
freddref
Could someone comment on solid state solutions to harnessing wind energy?

~~~
ajross
An electrical generator is 100% solid state up to the output wire (battery
storage may not be). Not sure what your question is.

~~~
WJW
Except for the spinning parts you mean? Those bearings run out and need
maintenance.

Ontopic: There are some preliminary design for electrostatic wind energy
converters: see for example [http://www.wired.co.uk/article/bladeless-wind-
turbine-ewicon](http://www.wired.co.uk/article/bladeless-wind-turbine-ewicon)

------
zeristor
There are plans to build a 6 km^2 island in the middle of the North Sea to act
as a marshalling point for a whole new raft of wind turbines on the
Doggerbank.

[https://arstechnica.co.uk/science/2017/05/north-sea-wind-
pow...](https://arstechnica.co.uk/science/2017/05/north-sea-wind-power-hub-
offshore-wind-farm/)

It would also be a routing point for powerlines out to the surrounding
countries.

My question is which country's territory would it be?

A key question since this would bestow rights on the surrounding ocean. If
this is planned to be a European territory then wouldn't that in itself be
novel?

~~~
bluGill
It would probably count as a boat/ship: some country like Panama (ie no
geographical relation to the north sea) will register, and on board their laws
will apply. It will account for no ownership of the sea around it other than a
safety factor so boats don't collide.

------
worldsayshi
There's so much misinformation about renewable energy. I was quite surprised
by this.

So how does it compare to nuclear energy?

~~~
samcheng
Once you factor in the costs to decommission a nuclear facility, nuclear
becomes one of the most expensive options.

~~~
RivieraKid
True, but nuclear energy has two important benefits. It has a stable output
(so you don't have to invest in energy storage) and it takes up much less
space (so it doesn't visually disrupt the landscape as much).

~~~
pjc50
Unless the 1/1000 failure event happens and all the land for miles around is
rendered uninhabitable and unfarmable.

~~~
RivieraKid
In modern nuclear reactors, safety is not an issue.

------
mrfusion
I wonder how many turbines we'd need to be able to run them inreverse and
affect the weather.

Edit: I know we're no where close to doing this but how far is it. Are we 1%
of the way there?

~~~
Retric
Even a small fan slightly changes the weather. But let's say you want a 5MPH
light breeze across the US.
[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beaufort_scale](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beaufort_scale)

The atmosphere is really heavy. 14.696 pounds per square inch, but you don't
need to alter it all call it the bottom 10 pounds * (5280mile/foot * 12foot /
inch)^2 * 3.797 million square miles across the US. = 1.5 ^ 17 pounds.

That is 1.25 x 10 ^ 17 joules. Let's say your doing this over 1 hour that's
35,000 GW vs 82 GW of actual wind power generation.

Of course a 50MPH wind (strong gale) needs 100 times as much power and drag is
going prevent this from being even close to 100% efficient.

PS: I suspect I am really messing up the units here.

~~~
snovv_crash
This assumes the wind is flowing over a frictionless surface with no
protrusions. In reality trees, mountains etc cause drag below, and other
atmosphere causes drag above. Drag is proportional to the cube of speed, so I
really don't think a wind turbine will be able to affect wind speed much.
Well, not more than reforestation would, and wind turbines don't even cause
local temperature or humidity differences like a forest would.

~~~
Retric
Turbines actively extract energy which may give them larger impact than say a
building of the same size.

Anyway, as I said drag is going to be an issue. But, I think a larger issue
air is never calm. So it's going to be hard to notice at low speeds because
winds are often much stronger than that and going in random directions.

Still, IMO that's on the order of magnitude you would need to do things like
shift a hurricane's path slightly.

------
Animats
If only it weren't so variable. Averaging over a large area won't help. 4 to 1
daily variation in total wind generation for big grids (CAISO and PJM) is
normal.

We're going to need huge battery farms. Huge. Tesla is building the largest
battery farm in the world, in Australia, and it will only hold about 100 MWH.
The Helms Pumped Storage Plant near Fresno is at least an order of magnitude
bigger.

~~~
dx034
Once battery prices are low enough the result is probably not huge battery
farms but batteries at every wind turbine. That way you can create a fairly
constant output. With batteries at homes you can also levelize input demand so
that the effect is steered from both sides.

------
staticelf
And is beautiful too. There are few things to see which feels high-tech and
clean as a lot of windmills on a distance.

------
jamez1
It is cheap because it is a poor power source, the energy is delivered at
inopportune times. C&I doesn't want to sign PPAs with them, which is why they
have to discount heavily to get them. This article then takes that fact and
pretends it means wind can undercut gas? Gas, especially gas peakers command
the highest prices per MW because they run at the times when we need energy
the most. That then covers the cost of having them idle for the rest of the
year.

Wind has low operating costs but the maintenance and depreciation are huge, so
looking at it from an operating cost perspective completely undermines this.

The simple litmus test we should use is that there are no profitable wind
companies. It's not very hard to run one - so if this article is accurate,
where the hell are they?

~~~
gpm
> It is cheap because it is a poor power source

This makes no sense. How good a power source something is has nothing to do
with how cheap it is to produce. Otherwise horses running in circles around
poles would be a dirt cheap power source and oil/solar (depending if you rank
by convenience or environment) would be insanely expensive.

~~~
jamez1
Imagine you run an aluminium plant (where you can't have the plant lose power
or the metal solidifies and costs you millions).

Would you rather be powered by coal or wind?

I should also point out that power prices vary wildly depending on where and
when the energy is delivered, the time of day is hugely important.

Electricity isn't stored - it must be consumed as soon as it is created. If
you are delivering it at times when nobody uses it, then the only people who
can pay you will give you much lower prices. Do you see how little relevance
these lower prices are? It doesn't mean that coal is much more expensive, it
just means coal commands a higher price because it sells when it has no
competition.

~~~
raesene6
I think the variability of a lot of renewables is why grid-scale energy
storage projects are taking off (e.g.
[http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/tesla-
south-...](http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/tesla-south-
australia-renewable-energy-worlds-largest-grid-scale-battery-a7828171.html)).

With a decent quantity of storage and good interconnects to shift power from
areas of high generation to other areas, it seems possible to balance out some
of the issues you're referring to.

------
k__
Yet people hate it from the bottom of their heart, it seems.

A friend of mine works for a company that builds these things in Germany and
he says most people hate it.

And even those who like it say, they can't allow them to build on their
property, because their neighbours would hate them for it.

People say these things are loud, ugly, kill birds and bats etc. pp.

They could have done so much to decentralise energy production, somehow the
most are built and owned by big energy corps so they can tell the world how
"green" they are...

~~~
Xylakant
Having lived in viewing distance of two nuclear power plants in germany, I can
tell you I vastly prefer wind turbines. Coal power plants are not exactly
beautiful either. Germany is a densely populated country, there's practically
no space where you can build anything without disturbing someone. I'm afraid
we'll have to disturb someone if we want electricity.

~~~
k__
Yes, same here.

I lived in viewing distance to AKW Biblis, the sun basically set behind it in
the evening, kinda surreal picture, haha.

I also regularly go on vacation on a farm that has multiple wind turbines in
viewing and hearing distance, find them kinda soothing.

~~~
Xylakant
The Rhine valley is crazy with nuclear plants. A few kilometers upstream from
Biblis is Philippsburg and then there's Fessenheim on the French side and
Leibstadt in Switzerland. That makes 4 nuclear plants on 350km of Europes
largest river valley.

------
shmerl
So why aren't prices going down? On the contrary, if you subscribe to use
something like Arcadia Power, you'd actually pay a bit more than regular
electric bill.

------
justonepost
Line a bunch of these bad boys along the south esst coast. Slow down those
hurricanes..

------
beaucoupfish
Can anyone offer any advice for software engineers/product managers with a web
app background, interested in moving into the renewables world? Open either to
using existing experience or learning something new.

~~~
Caveman_Coder
I work in that industry and have previously worked as TSO as well. There is a
lot of software used for monitoring/data collection & analysis/work
management/etc. that the TSOs and BAs rely on daily. The biggest issue I see
with that industry though is that it is dominated by Siemens/ABB/OSI (on the
SCADA/ICS/EMS side) and OSIsoft PI (database). There are some software
applications that the RC will use (iTOA/Space-Time Insight/COS/EIM/ect.) that
could easily be improved and don't have as much market dominance as
Siemens/ABB/OSI. Also, mobile application for utilities is pretty much non-
existent. Hope this helps.

~~~
beaucoupfish
Many thanks. Looks like one of the first jobs is figuring out the acronyms :)
Any suggestions on where/how to go about learning the industry, and where the
opportunities might be? e.g. Blogs, courses, forums, etc.

------
known
No way
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cost_of_electricity_by_source](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cost_of_electricity_by_source)

~~~
dx034
Wind and solar costs have fallen significantly over the past decade. They are
already cheaper than the most optimistic scenarios for 2020. This creates the
problem that many statistics are out of date and projects that were too
expensive in 2016 can be built profitably now.

I wouldn't trust Wikipedia's numbers too much for projects that are
commissioned now (and therefore built in 2019/2020).

------
_Codemonkeyism
Germany reached 35% wind/sun/bio energy this year.

------
eosophos
What about all the oil it takes to produce the turbines?

------
anon_dev_123456
They need to figure out how to keep these things away from people's homes.

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OQksc1-5Zoc](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OQksc1-5Zoc)

Imagine living in this constant flicker, I would go insane.

~~~
ceejayoz
If by "constant" you mean "for a short period of time in the morning/evening".
A tree waving in the breeze creates the same effect, and people seem to live
with that.

~~~
Coincoin
A tree in the wind is random, a turbine is not.

edit: I love wind noise, it doesn't mean I also love car alarms because they
are also noise.

------
tchaffee
And yet we have a president promising to bring back coal. If only our
population could elect leaders who will keep up with the outstanding
technology the US scientific community (really the global scientific
community) produces.

EDIT: It would be nice if folks down voting could leave a comment so I could
learn what the objection is. I saw no mention in other comments about this
specific challenge that America faces in terms of growing renewable energy
installations.

~~~
mchannon
There's a lot of metallurgical coal necessary for the construction of certain
high-grade steels, such as those you'd find in wind turbines.

Similarly, try and make a PV solar cell without coal in the value chain. You
can't (I can).

Arguably, some coal jobs are green jobs.

The thermal coal industry, long on the ropes, and not at all green, has not
been recovering.

~~~
Something1234
> Similarly, try and make a PV solar cell without coal in the value chain. You
> can't (I can).

What do you mean by "(I can)"?

~~~
mchannon
Patent-pending technology. Email me for details.

------
mrfusion
How close are we to mass deployment of rooftop turbines? Seems like the
installation could be way cheaper than solar.

~~~
RALaBarge
As jabl says, it is a question of the surface area of the blades.

Another consideration is the noise that they make. I am from rural Michigan
initially, and the main push back from the residents (aside from seeing them)
is hearing the constant / woosh woosh woosh / noise that you can hear if you
live close enough. That said again that noise would be proportional to the
area of the blades themselves.

I presume they become part of the background noise as these people have no
complaints about the huge trucks that air break down the 2 lane highway
connecting these areas to civilization and I notice it when I am back in the
area.

~~~
eloff
Plus you'd need a way to clean up the dead birds. I know my mother loves all
her birds that come to her bird feeders (she names them!), she'd never install
a wind turbine around her house.

~~~
pjc50
Turbines are about as dangerous as windows. Although you can alleviate that
with stickers. [https://abcbirds.org/program/glass-
collisions/](https://abcbirds.org/program/glass-collisions/)

------
architectonic
we at energy&meteo systems
[https://www.energymeteo.com/about_us/company.php](https://www.energymeteo.com/about_us/company.php)
provide means for overcoming the fluctuation problem of renewable energy while
offering some cool software services. Two main methods for achieving that are
the virtual power plants and would class forecast of the productivity of wind
and solar power plants. We're based in Germany but have customers all over the
world including the US. Find out more on our website or contact us.

------
nikolay
The current method to harness wind energy is primitive and leads to visual
pollution of the landscape. We're swimming in a vast ocean of endless energy,
and, yet, we use very primitive mechanical means to harness it!

~~~
yuliyp
OK... What is a better mechanism? that'll look better to you?

~~~
nikolay
Let's say, thorium reactors.

~~~
adrianN
I'm not sure I understand how Thorium reactors capture wind energy...

~~~
nikolay
I'm not sure why do you think that in my comment I expressed any interest in
this primitive mean of harnessing the ocean of energy that we swim into. Wind
and solar are possibly the most primitive ones and not a bit more advanced
than burning fossil fuels. Nuclear energy is the only intelligent mean we have
invented so far - everything else is savagery.

~~~
sumedh
> Nuclear energy is the only intelligent mean we have invented so far

Do you want a nuclear plant in your backyard?

~~~
adrianN
Do you want a wind turbine in your backyard?

~~~
sumedh
Yes why not, as long as its noise does not affect me, I dont have any problem.

Now can you answer my question?

~~~
adrianN
Yes, why not. Something like
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gen4_Energy](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gen4_Energy)
would be pretty cool.

~~~
sumedh
How about an actual nuclear plant not some futuristic idea.

~~~
adrianN
How big do you think that my backyard is?

~~~
sumedh
You are not answering the question.

------
falcolas
I think they buried the lede: wind is so cheap because of tax credits. Once
those are taken out, it's simply competitive with the LNG power generation,
and about 2/3 of coal.

Turbines require a ton of high risk maintenance, and have limited lifespans
due to the stresses they are put through.

Still very good, but not as good as the headline and the first half of the
article claims.

~~~
the_why_of_y
Wind needs some subsidies so it can compete with the huge subsidies for carbon
based fuels.

[http://www.imf.org/external/pubs/cat/longres.aspx?sk=42940.0](http://www.imf.org/external/pubs/cat/longres.aspx?sk=42940.0)

------
tomcam
Does no one care that thousands of birds get shredded every year regardless of
endangered status?

~~~
russdill
Go look at this chart:

[http://www.sibleyguides.com/conservation/causes-of-bird-
mort...](http://www.sibleyguides.com/conservation/causes-of-bird-mortality/)

Come back and tell me about how people bringing up bird strikes is relation to
wind power are being intellectually honest and not pushing an agenda of some
kind.

~~~
matthewmarkus
That chart is based on data from 2003!

Recently, for one Scottish installation, government reports indicated "that
more than 1,000 gannets would perish in the turbines each week, along with a
similar number of puffins and hundreds of kittiwakes [1]."

Many birders and environmentalists are very concerned about this issue [2].
The video footage of a bird attracted to a turbine's blades is fascinating.

[1] [https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/may/20/scotland-
bir...](https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/may/20/scotland-birds-at-
risk-windfarms-gannets-kittiwakes-puffins)

[2]
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LMfyJmSuOGM](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LMfyJmSuOGM)

~~~
russdill
Here's updated data:

[http://www.ace-eco.org/vol8/iss2/art11/](http://www.ace-
eco.org/vol8/iss2/art11/)

Wind power kills far fewer birds than a wide range of human activities,
including other forms of power generation even when compared per GWhr.

~~~
matthewmarkus
Let's assume a turbine kills 4 birds per year [1]. Globally, 341,320 turbines
are spinning around the world as of 2016 [2]. That's 1,365,280 deaths per year
to generate roughly 4% of the world's energy [3]. Put another way, bird deaths
due to wind power have been growing at 34% annually. That may make wind power
one the fastest growing bird killers on the planet! It's especially worrisome
if the birds affected are disproportionately large birds. I'm not quite ready
to give the technology a free pass.

[1] [https://m.phys.org/news/2017-06-farms-bird-slayers-theyre-
be...](https://m.phys.org/news/2017-06-farms-bird-slayers-theyre-behere.html)

[2] [http://gwec.net/global-figures/wind-in-numbers/](http://gwec.net/global-
figures/wind-in-numbers/)

[3] [http://windenergyfoundation.org/about-wind-
energy/faqs/](http://windenergyfoundation.org/about-wind-energy/faqs/)

------
abpavel
Sure, instead of destroying climate indirectly by heating atmosphere, let's
destroy it directly by blocking wind paths.

Last time it happened, it created the largest desert in the world - just look
at the effect Himalayas had on Sahara.

~~~
bdamm
Seems ok to me. If anything we ought to be removing some of the energy we're
so enthusiastically adding to the atmosphere.

~~~
abpavel
If you mean temperature, then wind turbines actually increase temperature
(friction, inefficiencies...) of locale climate. Solar panels cool the Earth,
not turbines.

Wind is a byproduct of solar power. Why not derive energy from the primary
source (solar) instead of going for secondary (wind).

Edit: really curious about downvotes. There is nothing in the above that's
controversial. I've also provided data below:
[http://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1088/1748-9326/11/4/044...](http://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1088/1748-9326/11/4/044..).
"Specifically, we discovered that operational wind turbines raised air
temperature by 0.18 °C"

