
Bontrager’s WaveCel material more effective at preventing concussions than MIPS - Alex3917
https://pelotonmagazine.com/gear/bontragers-new-wavecel-bests-mips-at-concussion-prevention/
======
parsimo2010
I’m going to comment with what seems to be the common sentiment here. It’s
really hard to tell how effective a helmet is at preventing concussions in
real life. So we/they design a test of some hypothetical concussion cause, and
lo and behold, their helmet is very effective in that test. Note that this is
a different test than the ones used to prove that MIPS was better than a
styrofoam helmet.

The real story is that marketing probably has a bigger influence than science
in this case. Several years ago helmet manufacturers hit the practical weight
limit for helmets with styrofoam and carbon fiber shells. I bought a Giro
Atmos over a decade ago and never needed to upgrade because the top of the
line helmets were only a couple grams lighter, after a decade of
“improvement.” The manufacturers noticed that helmet sales were declining, and
all of a sudden “new science” appeared with a theory about concussions being
caused by brain rotation and MIPS technology helps prevent that. How
convenient that this appeared.

The dirty secret is that literally nobody has ever seen a brain rotate inside
a skull and result in concussion. It’s really hard to image a brain in motion
(impossible with off the shelf equipment), so the brain rotation theory is
just a hypothetical mechanism. There isn’t an ethical test for blunt force
trauma in real life conditions, and bike crashes are very rarely reported if
they don’t send the rider to the hospital. So the leading authority on product
safety, the Consumer Product Safety Commission, doesn’t even have good numbers
on concussion rates for cyclists.

The bottom line is that MIPS and this new gel layer came at way too good of a
time for the helmet industry for us not to be wary of the science. They can
get away with it because it’s such an easy marketing sell- most people think
their life is worth more than $250, so any helmet tech is a bet on the order
of Pascal’s wager. If it’s snake oil I’m just out $250, but if it really is
better then I just saved my life in a crash.

~~~
zachrose
> I bought a Giro Atmos over a decade ago and never needed to upgrade...

I’m sure you’ve heard this but they say to replace a helmet every two-three
years even if it hasn’t been in a crash.

It’s up to you whether you think that makes sense, but I’d sooner believe it
than not.

~~~
kevin_thibedeau
And your mattress doubles in weight every eight years....

That is just a way to sell more product by shaming people into "being safe".

Uncrashed styrofoam doesn't stop being effective and turn into a pumpkin after
two years. But you can double revenue if you can halve the replacement cycle.

~~~
stef25
Guy in a motorbike shop told me it's UV that makes styrofoam lose its useful
properties, a quick Google seemed to confirm that.

~~~
kevin_thibedeau
The guy in the shop wants to move helmets. The internet is littered with
factoids that "everybody knows". It's on the internet you know.

------
bytesmith
The study cited is questionable. The best independent source for helmet
testing IMHO is virginia tech's, which show that these are about as effective
as MIPS, not 98% better as the headline suggests:

[https://www.helmet.beam.vt.edu/bicycle-helmet-
ratings.html](https://www.helmet.beam.vt.edu/bicycle-helmet-ratings.html)

Here's their methodology:

[http://hdl.handle.net/10919/83760](http://hdl.handle.net/10919/83760)

~~~
cowpig
This is great! Is there anything like this for other kinds of helmets?

------
steelframe
I got hit by a truck earlier this year while wearing a WaveCel helmet. The
outer foam cracked in two places and the cell structure on the inside
collapsed in several places. The CT scan of my head came out clean and the ER
physician discharged me within the hour. I think my post-incident symptoms
were more indicative of shock than concussion, since I did sustain several
fractures in my hand.

[https://imgur.com/a/LdNQSRT](https://imgur.com/a/LdNQSRT)

[https://imgur.com/a/JL5ORlg](https://imgur.com/a/JL5ORlg)

~~~
sliken
Keep in mind that helmets are designed to absorb energy. In your accident it's
clear that neither you, the bike, or your helmet had much traction. So instead
of tumbling (caused by rotational acceleration) you just slide. I'd expect any
good helmet to absorb that energy.

The unique claim WaveCell/MIPS is making is that they can absorb the energy
that's trying to rotate your head. I've seen no indications that this is a
problem. Tires have great traction, pretty much anything else (you, skin,
bike, backpack, helmet, bike gloves, etc) have very poor traction so accidents
rarely impart large rotational forces. Even if they did the WaveCell is only
going to absorb a minimal amount since the helmet is strapped to your head.

Mips and WaveCel are claiming "Rotation causes injuries", engineering a
solution to it, not proving it exists, and claiming they are safer because it.

Neither MIPS or WaveCel are claiming they absorb normal impacts better than
normal helmets. Generally both ANSI and SNELL have picked an acceleration and
penetration standard that's a compromise between rider comfort and safety.
Helmets are tested against those standards.

MIPS and WaveCel have failed to prove any additional safety and instead of
working with the safety standard folks are appealing directly to consumers to
justify their 3-6 times price increase over other ANSI and SNELL approved
helmets.

~~~
steelframe
> In your accident it's clear that neither you, the bike, or your helmet had
> much traction.

The impact that you can't see in the video that damaged the helmet was in the
collision with the side of the truck after it hit my left arm, rotating my
handlebars to the right. This caused the counter-steer that slammed me into
the side of the truck. The truck was moving faster than I was, so that was the
source of the rotational acceleration.

~~~
sliken
Helmets are usually worn pretty loosely, after all you don't want your jaw
forced close by an overly tight helmet strap. As such you can typically move a
helmet around on the top of your head, especially with say the force of a
truck hitting you.

So both WaveCel and non-WaveCel helmets help absorb impacts and reduce the
peak acceleration of your brain. Imparting dangerous levels of rotational
acceleration seems wildly improbable. Maybe if your helmet strap got caught on
the trucks lugnuts? Even then the MIPS or WaveCel would absorb maybe 30
degrees of rotation?

I'm actually curious if you still have a working WaveCel. If you try to rotate
your helmet for a normal helmet how much extra rotation do you get? Is it
damped as you rotate, or rotating freely within the range available?

For the Wavecel to make a difference you'd need a very high traction to allow
high torque which is required to reach a high peak rotational acceleration
_AND_ a very low total rotation. Even then I'd expect a normal helmet to
rotate just as far.

Antanomically I just can't see it working. I've had my chin forced into my
chest, landed on the wide of my head (forcing head onto the opposite
shoulder), crushed the back my helmet. But generally there's not much friction
between my hair and the helmet, or the helmet and the ground. So to transfer
much energy requires an impact not a shear force or torque of any kind.

Can you propose an accident that would impact a sudden large torque to a
normal helmet, but a low total rotation (compatible with keeping ones head
attached)? Or really anything that allows a slippery layer inside the helmet
to make a meaningful difference?

If WaveCel was actually better at absorbing impacts (which they show in their
animation) than styrofoam I wouldn't expect them to make their helmet out of
mostly styrofoam. If the WaveCel material is worse than the helmet is actually
less good at absorbing impacts than a helmet of similar thickness and weight.

Seems safest to just buy the best styrofoam helmet you can buy and don't add
cost, weight, and complexity to try to offset this theorized danger of peak
rotational acceleration causing concussions that is somehow mitigated by Mips
or WaveCel and not by a normal helmet worn normally.

~~~
ehnto
It all happens during a split second of the impact, thr helmet won't be
slipping while it is being pressed against your skull by the impact, hence the
slip mechanisms. The strap is to make sure your helmet is still in the right
place at the moment of impact and subsequent impacts not to stop it from
moving during the impact.

Whether or not it's a marketing gimmick, it's the only good indicator we have
as the research is inconclusive and I certainly don't have any better idea
than the people making the helmets.

That said, what I typically look to for advice on what is a safe helmet is
downhill mountain biking competition standards. If they think it will make the
sport safer, and their insurance lower, then it's a good indicator that it is
probably a good standard to have for my own head.

------
resoluteteeth
There is some controversy about this:
[https://www.outsideonline.com/2392896/trek-wavecel-helmet-
co...](https://www.outsideonline.com/2392896/trek-wavecel-helmet-controversy)

Also, some people argue that MIPS is probably not as effective in real life as
in tests because people simply don't fasten helmets tight enough for it to
matter (and the same may apply to these helmets with respect to shear forces),
but I don't know if this has been scientifically tested.

------
btrettel
A university website linked to in the article suggests that a helmet that
costs half as much as the one advertised in the article performs slightly
better: [https://www.helmet.beam.vt.edu/bicycle-helmet-
ratings.html](https://www.helmet.beam.vt.edu/bicycle-helmet-ratings.html)

Look for "Lazer Cyclone MIPS".

Edit: Unfortunately it appears that this particular helmet has been
discontinued: [https://www.bikeforums.net/general-cycling-
discussion/117473...](https://www.bikeforums.net/general-cycling-
discussion/1174734-lazer-cyclone-mips.html)

But there are others that perform about as well that are similarly priced.

------
pizza
While the topic of discussion is concussion, there is some evidence that both
fasting and ketosis are neuroprotective to some degree after traumatic brain
injury.

[0] Fasting is neuroprotective following traumatic brain injury,
[https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/jnr.21628](https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/jnr.21628)

[1] Cerebral Metabolic Adaptation and Ketone Metabolism after Brain Injury,
[https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1038/sj.jcbfm.96005...](https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1038/sj.jcbfm.9600543)

~~~
Alex3917
Interesting. Weed is supposed to be neuroprotective as well for concussions.

------
saagarjha
I was curious what MIPS stood for in this context, and apparently it's "Multi-
directional Impact Protection System".

------
blakesterz
The funny thing about helmets, any bike helmet, is that the don't protect
against EVERY accident, but they do help protect sometimes. I raced for a few
years and my helmet saved me some serious injuries at least twice that I know
of.

They aren't perfect, and they don't need to be. They help sometimes and almost
never make things worse, that's about all we can hope for. If someone made a
helmet that's better sometimes, then that's a good thing. It'll help someone
at some point.

~~~
hermitdev
I used to road race in my 20s. I never crashed in the handful of races I did
as a Cat 5 amateur, though I had a few close calls like having to bunny hop
onto a sidewalk to avoid someone that didn't hold their line through a corner
(almost won that race, came in second) and facing terrible, rutted roads in
the Chicago criterium with the prospect of around a 15 foot drop over a wall
into grant park garage ramp.

That said, I've crashed innumerable time over the years, often at speed. As a
teen, crashed several times on a dirt road at over 45 miles an hour without
wearing a helmet. Been over the handle bars at least 6 times. Been T-boned by
a car on a training ride.

Through all that, Ive managed to never hit my head. How? No clue. Just luck I
guess. Didnt wear a helmet as a kid, but as an adult I wont get on a bike
without on. Only injury above my knock I've had was when I dumped my road bike
at 25 mph when I lost the rear end in a corner. Landed on my side, rolled onto
my stomach and dragged my chin on the pavement for a bit. Broke my left hand
and burnt my finger tips from that one, too. Got up and rode 5 miles home...

If I were still riding, I would definitely get one of these helmets. A lot of
my gear is already Bontrager (helmet and 2 pairs of cycling shoes), and all 3
of my bikes are Trek (Bontrager is a Trek subsidiary).

~~~
minikomi
Looking forward to the replies by people who did hit their head hard, but
weren't wearing a helmet.

~~~
seanmcdirmid
There is a whole country of serious bike riders who don’t use bike helmets
(the Netherlands). It turns out that if you design your biking infrastructure
well enough, it isn’t really a problem.

~~~
mises
That is bad advice. It remains advisable to wear a helmet. What you are saying
is roughly equivalent to, "If car infrastructure is sufficient, we will no
longer need helmets." At best the need is reduced.

~~~
u801e
Do most motorists wear helmets while driving?

~~~
nkurz
Does the fact that they don't mean that they shouldn't? Researchers at the
University of Adelaide in Australia did a study and concluded that wearing
helmets in cars would prevent many serious injuries:
[http://www.copenhagenize.com/2009/10/australian-helmet-
scien...](http://www.copenhagenize.com/2009/10/australian-helmet-science-for-
motorists.html)

------
tmcw
Amazing, now we just need to make a full body suit of this material so it
works with the main type of urban collision, which is being killed by a
reckless SUV driver, or pulled under a box truck and crushed under the back
wheels.

------
JaakkoP
I wonder how’s the Swedish “airbag helmet” doing these days. It sounds like a
superior solution to any regular bike helmet, but perhaps the price and/or
convenience just isn’t there for the mass market.

------
emptybits
Not to detract from how amazing WaveCel might be. Any safety material
advancement is great news. But this is assumes we need new head protection to
fit the old moulds, so to speak.

OTOH, there are or will soon be options to replace our foam brain buckets with
high-tech collars/airbags that may (?) be less sweaty and may (?) provide more
coverage in a crash (chin, back, sides, etc.)

One example: [https://hovding.com/how-hovding-works/](https://hovding.com/how-
hovding-works/)

~~~
modernerd
Hövding is exciting because it's a new approach rather than an iteration on
old helmet designs.

They claim you still have a 90% risk of head injury with a traditional helmet
at 25km/h, but only a 2% risk with Hövding:

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2yOAkMZpbww](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2yOAkMZpbww)

That's a pretty significant improvement if true.

The only reason I don't currently own one is that they say it's not as
ergonomic for those using road/drop bar bikes. Presumably this is due to the
weight of the air canister and battery in the pod that sits behind your neck,
since the riding position is less upright.

If any road bike users wear Hövding, I'd be interested to hear about your
experience.

------
mixmastamyk
Nice helmet, however they rarely if ever protect the chin, why is that?

In my many years of riding I've fallen on the back of my head zero times and
on my chin twice, as a kid.

~~~
persistent
These guys make full-face helmets and of course you can always just wear a
motorcycle helmet.

[https://bike.kaliprotectives.com/helmets/](https://bike.kaliprotectives.com/helmets/)

But it's a tradeoff. Full-faced helmets give the helmet another point of
leverage on which to break your neck. On the other hand they won't erase your
face, which is nice.

~~~
entee
Motorcycle helmets are just not ever to be worn while biking. They are
designed for vastly different forces at vastly different speeds than a bike
helmet.

Not to mention that they will breathe very very very poorly, though I'm a
little unsure how these wavecell helmets will breathe. Like the Scott helmets,
lots of tiny holes seems like not as good as big holes for airflow.

~~~
persistent
That seems like a bad take to me. There is a lot of overlap between motorcycle
sports events speeds and bicycle event speeds. A bicycle downhill racer will
be going a lot faster than a motorcycle enduro rider. That is why, as an
example, Bell helmets marketed to enduro riders and downhillers are the same
helmet.

~~~
entee
This is incorrect. Most cyclists rarely sustain speeds beyond 20mph and will
not regularly see speeds beyond 30-35mph. If going downhill on a road bike,
amateur cyclists hit mid 40s occasionally on weekend rides. For reference the
maximum speed I have ever seen (I have biked >1,100 miles this year) is
55.7mph for one brief moment.

Motorcycles on the other hand consistently travel at 30+mph and regularly see
sustained 55-80mph on the highway. It's not the same problem at all.

If your helmet is likely to encounter a 60mph impact you will design for that.
Most likely that means your helmet will be stronger, which means it won't
break away as easily at lower speeds. This means when your head will take more
of the kinetic energy in a 15mph crash than it otherwise would. Not to mention
that the helmet will be heavier, which means there's more momentum on impact
which may affect the way forces get dissipated.

If you compare with downhill mountain biking that's a very tiny segment of the
population. It's true that some downhill mountain bikers may use motocross
helmets. That's not what the average bike helmet is for, and it's not what the
average bike rider should be using.

Don't use a motorcycle helmet as a bike helmet.

~~~
persistent
I don't know why you keep arguing this. You said that motorcycle helmets are
"never" to be worn by bicyclists. I point out that there is not just one but
-several- different companies cross-marketing DOT-approved motorcycle helmets
for bicycle sports. Now you are talking about the "average" bike rider. I
think you just have a narrow, inaccurate conception of the universe of all
cycle sports and you've probably never been anywhere near a motorcycle. Look
at these BMX kids, then look at the motocross kids.

[https://crazybmxer.files.wordpress.com/2013/09/bmx-
racing.jp...](https://crazybmxer.files.wordpress.com/2013/09/bmx-racing.jpg)
[https://i1.wp.com/www.njmotocross.com/wp-
content/uploads/201...](https://i1.wp.com/www.njmotocross.com/wp-
content/uploads/2019/05/1080px-x-608px-All-Sites-3-1.png)

~~~
entee
I have in fact ridden motorcycles, you’re still arguing a niche case. Fine,
there exists some cyclist who wears a motorcycle helmet. It’s a bad idea for
the vast majority of cyclists.

------
flyGuyOnTheSly
I am reminded of this study [0] that claims that "Bicyclists who wear
protective helmets are more likely to be struck by passing vehicles".

What's to be done?

Buy the helmet that reduces concussions by 98%?

Or don't buy a helmet at all, and trust that you won't get in an accident?

That's quite the conundrum.

[0]
[http://www.bath.ac.uk/news/articles/archive/overtaking110906...](http://www.bath.ac.uk/news/articles/archive/overtaking110906.html)

~~~
Alex3917
> What's to be done?

Wear a helmet, and don't ride on streets with cars.

~~~
craftyguy
> and don't ride on streets with cars.

In some cities in the US, which is just plain wrong. For example, in Portland
OR you cannot lawfully ride a bicycle on the sidewalk unless you're avoiding
some road hazard (cars do not count, unless it's on fire or something).

------
gnicholas
I've looked at MIPS and Wavecell helmets for bicycling. When I looked at the
analysis and research, it seemed that MIPS makes more sense for snow sports,
where your helmet can get stuck in snow and twist. On asphalt, or when
colliding with a car, this is less likely. So I passed on getting a MIPS
helmet for biking (though I should probably get one for snowboarding).

When I looked at the literature on Wavecell, it seemed to be of the "up to 40x
better" variety. To a lay person like myself, that seemed suspicious because I
have no idea what the common accident types are, and the literature didn't
seem to indicate that it was more protective in the common scenarios. The
article linked here does seem to make that case, but as others have noted it
reads a bit like an advertisement.

I am actually planning on getting on getting one of these helmets simply
because its shape fits my head very well, and in talking with cyclists I've
been told that having a shape that fits your head (mine is apparently more
"circular" than "oblong") is the most important thing.

~~~
craftyguy
I was in a cycling crash earlier this year while wearing a new (2 week old)
MIPS helmet. The helmet (with my head in it) hit the road pretty hard causing
an indentation and deep scratches. The location of the indentation leads me to
believe that the initial impact 'stuck' to the asphalt then slid as the
coefficient of friction was quickly surpassed. I had absolutely no injuries to
my head or neck (with that could be said about my elbow, which I apparently
landed on full-force). I have since replaced that helmet with another MIPs
one, but I haven't heard of the Wavecell helmets until now. I'll have to
consider those the next time I'm shopping around for a new helmet, hopefully
this time it'll be after the current one has 'expired' naturally.

------
sandworm101
There is no market for safer bike helmets.

Bike helmets are sold on the basis of look, feel, and most importantly weight.
Nobody is touting real safety. Compare motorcycle helmets, which come in two
radically different safety standards: DOT, for harley riders who want
something that is barely legal. And SNELL, for sportbike riders who actually
want to keep their face on their heads after a crash. I have never seen a
bicyclist with a full face helmet on the road. Bicyclists, like the harley
riders, care far more about comfort and style than actual safety. At 50kph the
asphalt doesn't care whether you just fell off a bicycle or a motorcycle.
Please prove me wrong. Please find me a pic of someone riding a bicycle on a
road in a snell motorcycle helmet. I have seen plenty of them in the downhill
community, never among commuters.

My point is that this new material will not be used to make safer helmets. It
will be used to make lighter and more stylish helmets that, like all the
others, remain only slightly above the absolute minimum legal standards.
That's the market.

~~~
matt_j
Speed is a factor. A motorcycle can easily travel 60km/h - 120km/h. A bicycle
is likely to be travel at 20km/h - 40km/h. 40km/h is pretty damn fast on a
bike. Maybe the enthusiast guys riding the beach in the morning get up to
60km/h but that's a pretty small percentage riders.

~~~
sandworm101
An impact above 60kph is beyond the design of even a motorcycle helmet. They
are primarily meant to protect the head falling onto the road surface and then
sliding, an impact that it similar no matter the speed. Even when standing
still, a head freefalling from 2 meters (ie bicyclist/motorcyclist tipping
over) strikes the ground at 22.5 kph. That single impact is the US/DOT
standard for bicycle helms. They don't accommodate sliding or repeated
impacts.

~~~
TylerE
Not true. Look at MotoGP crashes. They’ll hit the deck at 150mph, slide off
into gravel, slide to a stop, and pop right up with nothing more than a few
scuffs on their leathers.

~~~
lm2s
Keyword: slide. They don't impact their heads at 150mph against something.

Also BTW, their helmets have way more cushion/crumble zone than regular street
helmets.

~~~
TylerE
There are impacts.

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HDoi-5HTuwQ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HDoi-5HTuwQ)

------
neves
Any independent tests on the subject?

I've went to my goto source on the subject: the Bike Helmet institute:
[https://helmets.org/helmet19.htm#bontrager](https://helmets.org/helmet19.htm#bontrager)

Their veredict:

when we sent a Specter model to a lab for conventional impact test results the
results were very good but not amazing.

------
flyinglizard
There’s a bunch of helmet technology in mountain biking in the recent years.
MIPS is one, 6D ODS is another (I have helmets with both). I wish I could see
them compared.

------
bitL
Wasn't there an increase in serious head/neck injuries when Australia made
helmets mandatory? I thought the only working protection was the Hövding
airbag, which is quite expensive for one-time use.

~~~
jdnenej
Last time this was posted someone pointed out that this could be because when
someone dies they don't bother to report "they died but they also got neck
injurys which would have caused long term damage" so since less people died,
the more minor reports could have been made.

~~~
bitL
Basilar/basal skull fracture is what makes helmets dangerous in general, i.e.
landing face-first on motorbikes often led to cracked bones at the bottom of
the skull, often fatally. There were reports about increased rates among
cyclists when helmets were made mandatory. I consider that pretty serious and
not minor. Nothing is without risks it seems.

------
mmaunder
Knocked myself out back in the 90s on a road bike not wearing a helmet.
Stitches in head. Concussion for a month.

Knocked myself out 2 years ago on a mountain bike wearing a MIPS helmet. No
stitches in head. No concussion.

Last year wife went over the bars at whistler and took it on the face with the
best carbon fiber full face downhill helmet money can buy. Pressure on her
face was so much she had lines of blood under her eyes just from the pressure.
Big scratches on the face-guard. But she was totally fine, not knocked out,
walked it off and laughed about it later.

Completely unscientific data above, but when it comes to my budget
distribution these days, it goes into helmet, then pads (D3O for downhill and
cross country), then bike, camelbak and rest of gear.

Helmets are awesome.

For reference: [https://www.d3o.com/](https://www.d3o.com/) Various
manufacturers use this stuff - Fox, Raceface, but my personal favorite are
these TLDs. They're great for long sweaty rides and gnarly stuff.
[https://shop.troyleedesigns.com/raid-knee-
guard?color=7](https://shop.troyleedesigns.com/raid-knee-guard?color=7)

This is the helmet she was using:
[https://shop.troyleedesigns.com/19f-tld-d3-midnight-
chrome-c...](https://shop.troyleedesigns.com/19f-tld-d3-midnight-chrome-
carbon-helmet?quantity=1&color=370)

I'll also add that I'm not a fan of Bell's Super 3R helmet with the removable
face. It's MIPS these days, but I don't feel the chin guard provides enough
space in case you actually take a face hit. The more DH specific helmets have
more clearance. I guess now that I've seen one work and save someone, I'm a
little more picky. Thisis the Super 3R I'm referring to:
[https://www.bellhelmets.com/bike/p/super-3r-mips-mountain-
bi...](https://www.bellhelmets.com/bike/p/super-3r-mips-mountain-bike-helmet)

For cross country rides that have some more challenging DH, I use this helmet
which breathes way more than the TLD I linked to above and has more clearance
than the Super 3R: [https://www.foxracing.com/proframe-helmet-
matte-%5Bblk%5D-m/...](https://www.foxracing.com/proframe-helmet-
matte-%5Bblk%5D-m/23310-001-M.html?utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&gclid=CjwKCAjwzJjrBRBvEiwA867byrst9OjRtuAQMGVTjsGdFc2qBphbQ6BpD9J4ZX_-
XzKoOs15U4171hoCkp0QAvD_BwE)

I'm sure there are tons of cyclists, XC and downhill folks on HN and we all
have our opinions and experience. Would love to hear from others. YMMV
considerably from mine. Stay safe!!

~~~
dahart
I crashed at Whistler last year, into several large rocks, going fast, wearing
a full face and a neck brace and full body armor. I remember hitting the rock
with the back of my head and wondering while it was happening how serious it
was going to be. I’m certain that without the protection, I’d have been in the
hospital at the very least. Walked away with no head injury, no broken bones,
only some torn shoulder soft tissue and a really ugly hematoma on my hip where
it was exposed in between two body armor pads.

Ditto: helmets are awesome.

~~~
yellow_postit
Would you have put yourself in the same situation if you didn’t have all that
protective gear on?

iirc this is one of the theories about injury being higher in American
Football vs. Rugby, the increased safety equipment leads to a cycle of
increased hitting force which leads to increased equipment, etc.

~~~
dahart
I do put myself in similar situations with less gear, just for shorter periods
of time, and when I’m closer to home. I don’t wear all that gear when riding
in traffic, and arguably the consequences can be much higher when hitting or
being hit by a car.

The gear helps when I have much greater exposure (i.e. longer periods of time)
to the risks, and part of the idea is when I’m taking a vacation and spending
a lot of money to go up to Whistler for a week, fewer small problems will end
my vacation early. The gear also helps when I run the risk of exhaustion,
which is a major cause of mountain bike crashes.

BTW, I actually do think there’s _some_ truth to the idea that gear increases
risk taking. That doesn’t mean that overall safety goes down though, so you
have to be careful how you think and talk about it. If injury outcomes are on
average lower when wearing gear, then that’s that, it doesn’t matter if people
are taking larger chances, the protection is still outweighing the risk.

------
frereubu
OT: The pointless euphemism "unplanned dismounts" in the intro paragraph made
me laugh out loud.

------
afinlayson
I need this for hockey asap!!!

------
dreamcompiler
Off-topic but it's really annoying to try to read an article with 30% of my
mobile screen taken up by a sticky ego title. Please fight back against
marketdroids who ask you to do this.

------
m0zg
People buy $300 bicycle helmets?

------
KingFelix
How does this make 2nd place after 9 minutes? Is Hacker news pay to play ?

I mean this sounds great, and the contrarian version of me says, no way its
all marketing.

Discuss

~~~
Alex3917
I submitted this because I bought one of these today. Obviously I have no way
of independently verifying whether or not they work as advertised. What I will
say though is that if you get even a minor concussion, that means you can't
look at any electronic device for 3+ months, which means that if you're a tech
consultant or run a startup then you're basically out of a job. So in
comparison paying $150 for something that lasts 3 years seems conceptually
like a very good bet.

My general outlook, which is why I like this, is that it's relatively rare in
life to find things where you can improve your health or increase your life
expectancy just by swiping your credit card without needing to do any
additional work or anything else unpleasant afterwards, so one should take
advantage of these opportunities when possible. (Another good example is HEPA
filters, where you just swipe your credit card and plug it in and that's it,
and although there are limited studies on HEPA filters themselves there is a
very clear link between air pollution and mortality risk.)

~~~
EamonnMR
> if you get even a minor concussion, that means you can't look at any
> electronic device for 3+ months

I had a concussion recently and my doctor said nothing of that nature. I would
love to have had a helmet which was better able to handle the impact though!
Definitely the least fun altered state of consciousness that I have
experienced.

~~~
alistairSH
I’ve had concussions and never been told to abstain from screens. So, I did
some quick googling... by the looks of it, screens (and other bright light
sources) can exacerbate post-concussion headaches, but I didn’t see anything
that indicated screen use slows recovery or causes further damage.

~~~
EamonnMR
The understanding I've gotten from reading about the topic and talking to a GP
was that anything that makes symptoms worse will lengthen recovery time.

