
A foreigner's guide to WeChat payments in China - reuven
http://blog.lerner.co.il/the-foreigners-guide-to-wechat-payments-in-china/
======
reaperducer
_I was getting funny looks from taxi drivers and waitresses, all of whom were
disappointed that another primitive foreigner was forcing them to use cash._

I simply don't like the thought that if I forget my phone, get my phone taken
from me, drop my phone and it breaks, or run out of battery that I'll be
stranded somewhere and unable to buy food, check in to a hotel, or even get
home.

Societies should move toward more payment methods, not fewer. Redundancy is
important, especially with something as essential as currency. Look at the
recent CenturyLink outage which reduced non-cash sales at stores that relied
on it for credit card transactions to zero.

Too much risk in too small a basket.

~~~
reuven
A good point. I made sure to have a power pack (i.e., big, external charging
battery) with me — not so that I could talk on the phone, but so that I could
pay for things and/or call a taxi with DiDi. Without a charge on my phone, I'd
effectively be penniless and stranded.

At least in China, they might be moving toward multiple and parallel services
(i.e., WeChat and AliPay), but they're all based on phones. Which means that
if you lose your phone, or if it breaks, you're really in trouble.

~~~
stcredzero
What would it take to establish a competitor to PayPal in the US?

~~~
dewey
Isn’t there a bunch of them now? Apple Pay Cash, Venmo, etc

~~~
StavrosK
Venmo is owned by PayPal.

------
swang75
For an official guide on how to activate WeChat Pay without a China mobile
number, what payment sources (primarily debit or credit cards issued by a
mainland Chinese bank) are accepted, and what identity documents are accepted
(including non-Chinese passports), you can go to WeChat's official Help Center
site in English here:

[https://help.wechat.com/cgi-
bin/newreadtemplate?t=help_cente...](https://help.wechat.com/cgi-
bin/newreadtemplate?t=help_center/topic_list&lang=en&plat=android&Channel=helpcenter)

Perhaps the official docs offer a more clear explanation.

~~~
reuven
Perhaps, but the official docs (following your link) explicitly says: "At the
current time, "Wallet" is only available to users registered in mainland
China, Hong Kong, South Africa and Malaysia."

In other words, the official line is that I shouldn't be able to use WeChat
payments.

The whole point of my blog post is that this official line is wrong.

~~~
jandrese
It's still kind of true since you basically need to either find a friend you
trust to launder money for you, or use some sketchy online service with high
fees to launder the money for you.

~~~
LeifCarrotson
You're using a pejorative term rather wildly...you can also "launder" USD cash
into RMB cash at the airport with high fees.

~~~
jandrese
It's clearly going against the intent of the company, and possibly the
Communist party, I don't think I'm completely out of line using the term.

~~~
tantalor
You are saying this is fraud?

~~~
jandrese
I'm saying you could find yourself in trouble with the local party officials
yes.

Most individuals are going to fly under the radar I hope, but it's still a bit
of a risk.

~~~
reuven
OP here. Yes, it's a bit of a risk. But I figure that it's a small one.

------
pcr0
Given that the Chinese government actively promotes tourism, the number of
hoops a foreigner has to jump through to pay for things where cash isn't
accepted is quite ridiculous.

~~~
reuven
Businesses _can_ accept foreigner credit cards. But why would they, when
foreigners are a tiny proportion of the population, and taking such cards
probably costs them a fortune?

Someone just told me that the Shanghai hotel I stayed in for several days last
week costs foreigners double the Chinese rate. Undoubtedly, part of that rate
includes various taxes, and takes the payment margin into account.

~~~
reaperducer
_Businesses can accept foreigner credit cards. But why would they, when
foreigners are a tiny proportion of the population, and taking such cards
probably costs them a fortune?_

This is true for every other country in the world, yet somehow it's done.
China is the exception.

 _Someone just told me that the Shanghai hotel I stayed in for several days
last week costs foreigners double the Chinese rate. Undoubtedly, part of that
rate includes various taxes, and takes the payment margin into account._

No, that's just a thing that happens. It's not unique to China, or even this
point in time. I've been to lots of places in the world where I've gotten the
"tourist" menu at a restaurant, which has higher prices.

~~~
reuven
I totally accept your point about tourist vs. local prices.

But when it comes to credit cards, China is truly different: They don't have
Visa or MasterCard (or AmEx) in the country. They do have Union Pay, which is
a special, China-only credit card.

So businesses _do_ often take credit cards. They just don't take non-Chinese
credit cards.

In this sense, they are different from other countries I've visited.

~~~
reaperducer
_They do have Union Pay, which is a special, China-only credit card._

Not China-only. Union Pay is widely accepted in the United States, and
probably every other country. Even small gas stations in the middle of nowhere
take Union Pay.

~~~
seanmcdirmid
I was SOL a couple of times visiting India and Netherlands, which I scarily
found did not take UnionPay cards period! Always bring plenty of backup cash
(USD, not RMB) and a credit card or two, especially if you are using Chinese
ATM cards.

India kind of makes sense, but the Netherlands? Seriously? I hope things are
different now.

~~~
egourlao
Many places in NL only accept Maestro and Visa Electron cards ( _pin_ payment
cards, as they call them), and won't take any other regular major debit/credit
cards. Including UnionPay.

~~~
seanmcdirmid
Never had a problem with Amex and American ATM cards, just UnionPay.

------
pascoej
Nice guide. I didn’t know it was possible without the Chinese phone number +
Chinese bank account.

Getting a Chinese phone number and bank account was surprisingly painless for
me. You prepay around 20-30$ for a phone number at 1rmb/500mb and the account
is a simple form.

Then if you have a nice bank account with fee free international withdraws you
can convert money without fee by going to the atm, withdrawing, then
depositing. All in all I’d say it takes about 2-3 hours, though I’ve heard
ymmv depending on what bank branch you try to set up your account.

~~~
reuven
I seriously thought about getting a bank account and phone number. But I have
a single-SIM phone, and really didn't feel like swapping the SIM in and out,
depending on who I was calling. (Nor did I feel like having two phones with
me.)

But yes, if I hadn't managed to get WeChat payments to work, I probably would
instead have written a guide on getting a Chinese bank account!

~~~
NedIsakoff
WeChat pay is a lot less useful then Alipay. I would recommend Alipay.

~~~
reuven
As I wrote in the blog post, I _tried_ to get Alipay to work. So far as I can
tell, they truly don't let foreigners (without Chinese bank accounts) use
their payment system.

~~~
james_s_tayler
I managed to use Alipay but yes, with a Chinese bank account. Getting the bank
account wasn't that difficult though. Alipay was awesome though. Really hate
cash.

------
xster
Since this is being used as a guide, it might be worth being pedantic and
pointing out that it's the 'wrong' way of doing it. It definitely beats
carrying cash but it's a 'second class citizen'-ish way of using mobile
payment.

The mechanism the OP used is the 'pocket change' system which, like its name
suggest, can't be used everywhere. It's great for getting casual consummables,
getting ice cream etc but doesn't work for services that requires more trust
(since there is no credit system and they can't hold a charge on your credit
card). For those (like rentals), you still need a local bank account.

Luckily, as others pointed out, it's fairly trivial to open a bank account
with a foreign passport. The primary use method is also not to move money from
your bank to your WeChat and then use it. People just leave their money in the
bank draw from that via WeChat or AliPay directly.

As a random fun fact, you also don't need a local phone number to have a fully
functional WeChat/AliPay account with bank linked. Though you do need a local
phone number to open a bank account so it's a bit moot.

~~~
zavi
This is false, you cannot open a bank account unless you live in China (work &
residence proof required).

Source: just came back from China, went to a few banks and tried to open an
account.

AliPay seems to now accept foreign _debit_ cards though as a source of
funding.

~~~
jason_slack
> This is false, you cannot open a bank account unless you > live in China
> (work & residence proof required).

This is completely false.

~~~
zavi
I went to ICBC and ABC branches last week in Beijing near Tsinghua and they
both told me no bank account on my tourist visa. What am I missing?

~~~
jason_slack
hmm, tourist visa. Perhaps this is the key. I have a work visa.

------
shubham0075
Hey OP, Thanks for your guide. I am from India where we have similar analouges
such as PayTM and PhonePe. While Paytm is ubiquitous, cash is still king here.

I also had a chuckle when you had to explain so precisely the mechanism of how
money is transferred between wechat accounts. I guess that is probably due to
the fact that people in the west have very less experience with such services.

As an interesting additional thing, a new thing called UPI (unified Payments
Interface) has been running in India. It basically allows you ti use your bank
account like a wechat wallet. It is really popular among the young demographic
and is gaining a wider acceptance due to less fees and no need of handing your
money over to a company like Paytm or Wechat first. Money travels from bank
account to bank account instantly with no fees.

------
onetimemanytime
It's all fun and games until they ban you for life, ala PayPal /Google. Social
credit score drop, a mistake or whatever.

I hate the cashless society. Everything tracked--forever.

------
baybal2
Another option is that you spoof your sim card and gps to HK with xposed, and
then the wallet will unlock, and if you are lucky enough, it will allow you to
directly debit your credit card.

There is some kind of uncertain logic it uses to guess if somebody in HK is an
actual Honkonger with a foreign credit card, but rumors are that some card
issuers work 100% of times.

------
majia
I think in comparison visa/master cards are really outdated payment methods.
They are expensive and discriminative as merchants need to pay 2-3%
transaction cost and banks give rebates based on some complex calculation.
They are highly insecure as it’s easy for malicious actors to spoof your card.

------
infofarmer
In recent years, LocalBitcoins has become by far the cheapest, fastest, and
simplest way to move money to and from my WeChat Pay wallet.

I used to give cash to local friends, but it was putting a strain on their
(infinite) hospitality. I don't have a local bank account yet, although it is
relatively straightforward to get one.

------
dangrover
Yes, you can have other people send you money in this way, but it is actually
pretty easy to get a Chinese bank account, even as a tourist. It will take you
20 minutes. Punch it into WeChat, taking into account how your name was
entered on the bank system, and you're good to go.

------
LeoPanthera
(Re: The ExpressVPN ad in the middle of the article.) Personally I avoid any
VPN service that uses affiliate codes to grow. It shows they don't _really_
care about privacy. Which, sadly, applies to most commercial VPN services.

~~~
e1g
In principle, I’m with you. In practice, “build a better product and they’ll
come [with no marketing]” just doesn’t work in the world filled with loud
marketing by your inferior competitors.

In this specific case: ExpressVPN has been my default choice for 2 years% I
travel a lot for work and maintain subscriptions to most top-tier VPNs, which
I speed-check every few months. ExpressVPN hconsistently gives better speeds
and latency across US, EU, and Asia-Pacific. No affiliate link but would
recommend anyway.

------
mark_l_watson
Nice! I haven’t seen anything written by Reuven for a while, and just recently
I was thinking about potential difficulties travelling in China in the ‘age of
WeChat.’ Good to see his writeup.

~~~
reuven
Wow, thanks for the warm words...

FYI, every time I visit China, I write a bunch of things on Facebook about my
experiences. (I know, lots of issues there, but it's convenient...)
Follow/friend me there, and you'll see more about me and China!

------
amf12
India has gone a step ahead with their UPI based payment system. You don't
even need to transfer money between your bank account and your mobile wallet.
With the UPI interface you can use your cellphone to transfer money to another
person or business just like China, and it doesn't expose your account
numbers.

------
tomc1985
Technology is supposed to develop inclusively... instead we have life-
essential systems developed with narrow-minded visions excluding all sorts of
people that shouldn't be edge cases.

With the ubiquity of mobile this kind of thing really scares me.... phones are
such an unreliable thing to place so much importance in

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gcb0
Why would you ever need to use a VPN while in china accessing their owned
services? That's great for china from an infosec perspective though.

Now they know your VPN exit IPs, and if you re-use the pattern/pin of the
phone to lock the wallet, they will know that too.

~~~
xster
This may or may not be what the OP meant but if you trust Google Play and
don't trust anything else like an APK from WeChat's website, then you won't be
able to get it from the Play Store once you enter China. (Though you won't
need to do this if you roam on some carriers like Google Fi or use the WiFi of
some nicer hotels)

~~~
reuven
Yes, that was my point — that if you visit China with a non-Chinese Android
phone, the phone will get apps from Google Play. Without a VPN, it won't be
able to access Google Play, putting you in a bit of a chicken-and-egg
situation. So you need to install the VPN before you visit.

~~~
gcb0
my question was about usage, since for installation you already recommend
doing so out of China in the first place

~~~
reuven
You need to install a VPN before you go to China.

Then, once you're within China, you can use the VPN to access restricted sites
and services -- including the various app stores.

------
torgian
I never had a problem using cash to pay for things, including taxis. The
biggest problem with taxis is that most drivers don't carry much change, so I
always make sure i have a hundred RMB in small bills on me, just in case my
phone is dead.

~~~
Markoff
it's difference between not carrying cash and telling you they don't have
cash/change for obvious reasons, this happens only to foreigners

if you are drunk enjoy those fake banknotes they have for these occasions.
happened to me only once completely sober in restaurant they tried this while
i was there with my Chinese wife, they really have no shame

------
Markoff
here i will save your time reading that long nonsense - if you don't live in
China and travel there, then ask any Chinese to top up your account and give
them cash in exchange. if you live in China getting phone number and bank
account it's extremely easy, there is not even waiting period for bank card,
because there is no name on UnionPay cards so they can give you card
immediately

~~~
reuven
That's great advice, except for one thing: Many Westerners visiting China
cannot accept money transferred to them. The "wallet" functionality just
doesn't exist. That's why I wrote that blog post. Sorry it wasn't useful for
you.

------
parliament32
Makes you wonder how the payment system in WeChat remains profitable if it's
100% free... do businesses have to pay a fee to withdraw?

~~~
reuven
Yes. You pay money to withdraw from your WeChat wallet into your (Chinese)
bank account.

I've never had to do this, because I'm a foreigner, and thus cannot remove
money from there.

Besides, WeChat is sitting on a pile of cash, thanks to this payment system:
Everyone who transfers money into their WeChat wallet is basically giving
TenCent (the WeChat company) money they can use to invest, or whatever they
want. I've heard that they have about $60 billion at their disposal thanks to
this, but I don't know where I read this and it's hard to know how accurate it
is. But given that everyone in China uses WeChat payments, I wouldn't doubt
it.

When I left China on Saturday night, I still had 600 RMB in my wallet. That
money will remain there until my next visit, currently scheduled for April.
I've effectively loaned 600 RMB to WeChat, which they can use however they
want for four months. Multiplied over many users, that's potentially quite a
bit.

~~~
bobthepanda
That sounds vulnerable; if Tencent is truly doing whatever they want, then a
run on WeChat could be the mother of all bank runs.

~~~
reuven
Yes, this is definitely a possibility.

