
Secessio plebis - vezycash
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secessio_plebis
======
monetus
On the other side of the coin, the machinations to divide and defeat the
interests of the plebeians were horribly fascinating. Beware the promises of a
Drusus.

In my mind, the failures of the gracchiae seem to echo for hundreds of years
until Rome itself was sacked. Granted, the gracchiae were fighting for the
latins, but the lack of compassion shown to visigoths undoubtedly played a
role in the impetus behind their uprising.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marcus_Livius_Drusus_(consul)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marcus_Livius_Drusus_\(consul\))

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaius_Gracchus#Senatorial_Resp...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaius_Gracchus#Senatorial_Response)

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gracchi](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gracchi)

~~~
woodruffw
I'll be that guy: Gracchi is already plural (-ī is the plural masculine
nominative for the singular Gracchus).

You can also see in in their _gens_ : they're each Sempronius, so the family
is _gens Sempronii_ ("the Sempronius clan", "the family of the Semproniuses").

~~~
monetus
Ya that's what I thought too, but I heard a few people say gracchiae and just
followed the leader, wondering why the name turned feminine. You think
gracchiae could be referring to the whole lineage or something?

~~~
woodruffw
The whole lineage would be just _gens Gracchi_ , I think. It's made a little
complicated by the fact that the Gracchi weren't a real _gens_ , just a
plebian/low-patrician branch of the Sempronii. Grammatically I'd represent
that as _Gracchī Seproniōrum_ ("the Gracchi of the Sempronii"), but I have no
idea if that's idiomatic.

Caveat lector!

------
boomboomsubban
It should be noted that Roman history of this period is highly mythologized.
Rome was sacked in 389, and it is commonly believed that most of the records
from before that date were destroyed during the sack. This would make the
earliest source possible come from a century after the major events, and our
primary source, Livy, was using those sources three more centuries later.

Our current versions of these events are likely based on populari politician's
recreation of the events, then further altered to promote the Julio-Claudian
dynasty.

~~~
bb101
The Arabs had translated many Greek and Roman works into Arabic, and then
these were translated back into Latin by monks hundreds of years later during
the time of the crusades.

So not the original works, but not anecdotal either.

[https://aeon.co/ideas/arabic-translators-did-far-more-
than-j...](https://aeon.co/ideas/arabic-translators-did-far-more-than-just-
preserve-greek-philosophy)
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transmission_of_the_Greek_Clas...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transmission_of_the_Greek_Classics)

~~~
boomboomsubban
You're talking about events nearly a millennium after the ones being
discussed. Rome had no great influence in 389 BC, and it's incredibly unlikely
that the Persians maintained copies of those records.

~~~
jacobush
Is your OP speaking of BC? Not clear to me, total ignoramus.

~~~
boomboomsubban
Yes, it is written about the article linked.

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John_KZ
I think it's terrifying how sooner than later the plebians won't even have
that miniscule amount of power because all the work that needs to be done will
be automated with machines they have no control over.

~~~
nickthemagicman
Capitalism is basically over at that point when there's like 80% unemployment
because most jobs are automated.

The idea of your survival based on a job is a terrible idea anyway.

I can't wait until this happens because then people will get serious about
income inequality and have to figure out how to properly distribute the wealth
that the machines create.

~~~
maxxxxx
Get ready for some serious upheaval and misery though. The powerful won't give
up anything without being forced and people revolt only when pushed really
far.

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bhritchie
I was just reading a history of the Hellenistic world, and something like this
seems to have been common in towns in Ptolemaic Egypt, and functioned as the
main check on otherwise rapacious taxation.

~~~
monetus
Mind if I ask what you were reading, or if you have any recommendations for
Egyptian/Greek/Persian history?

------
person_of_color
If only SW engineer "plebs" could band together and strike to demand
recognition of their profession like doctors and lawyer

~~~
Fnoord
Yeah, it is interesting how that didn't happen at Theranos or Google (with the
"killer drones" recently). For the former case, I'd like to refer to the book
Bad Blood. For the latter, _12_ people from Google resigned over that issue.
The massive privacy issues occurring, Uber debacle, NSA debacle, or how about
Microsoft in the '90s? IBM before that? I guess the tech sector workers get
divide & conqueror-ed.

~~~
Semiapies
Which is exactly what happened to the plebians. They spent a couple centuries
periodically having these revolts, and eventually they ended up "represented
by" a few rich plebian families more tied to the patricians than to their
supposed class, while pretty much nothing changed for the actual common
people.

~~~
arethuza
Sounds remarkably like the transition the UK's Labour party went through to
become "New Labour".

~~~
pjc50
The origin of Labour in the first place was "Fabian" (after Fabius the
Delayer) socialism, in opposition to revolutionary socialism. Incremental
change as opposed to kicking over the table.

~~~
arethuza
I was particularly thinking of the backgrounds and quality of people in
Attlee's cabinet and compare that with the today's politicians.

------
Shaddox
This is a very interesting social phenomena and I'm glad someone randomly
linked to it since I never heard of it.

I imagine the effectiveness of it stood in the fact that cities were self-
sufficient. Since cities are no longer self-sufficient, a protest like this in
the modern age would be meaningless. All the plebs of New York could leave the
city and nothing would change, except that some patrician would get richer by
exploiting the plebe that chose to partake in this (or punish it).

~~~
pjc50
> cities were self-sufficient

Rome was highly dependent on grain imports.

> All the plebs of New York could leave the city and nothing would change

 _All_ of them?

Transport would break down fairly rapidly, since you'd have no public
transport, no cabs, and no Uber drivers. Even if you could get into work there
would be nobody to buy lunch from, and no childcare or schooling available to
leave your kids with.

Most of the financial services companies in NY would be rendered inoperable.

~~~
boomboomsubban
>Rome was highly dependent on grain imports.

I doubt this was true during the period described. Rome was little more than a
city state in 492, and the first period of expansion was just starting in 450.

------
elyseum
Power to the people!

------
ggm
_After the uprising of the 17th of June The Secretary of the Writers ' Union
Had leaflets distributed in the Stalinallee Stating that the people Had
forfeited the confidence of the government And could win it back only By
redoubled efforts. Would it not be easier In that case for the government To
dissolve the people And elect another?_

Bertolt Brecht

[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Die_Lösung](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Die_Lösung)

------
bb101
For anyone interested in this, the Roman Empire series on Netflix is very
good. Presented in a mini-series format, the primary characters, events and
dates end up sticking in one's mind. Crassus's death at the hands of the
Parthians is particularly brutal but some may say he deserved it after
crucifying 6,000 men, one every 10 yards, on the road to Rome.

~~~
maze-le
I found it to be pretty sensationalist and ripe with historical inaccuracies.
Senators with beards in full military attire in the senate house is only the
most obvious one. The portrayal of most costumes is not accurate. Rome itself
was not yet the city of marble depicted in the series (that came 50-150 years
later).

The interviews with historians are interesting, and they are are not wrong per
se. The problem here is more that the content its very curtailed and not
detailed enough.

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emmelaich
Interesting to see people's take on this.

Before reading it I assumed it was some sort of explanation of Trump. Which is
not disabused by the article. Not to say I'm in favour or the current POTUS's
policies or manner.

Possibly related - "a secessio meant that all shops and workshops would shut
down and commercial transactions would largely cease." reminds me of John
Galt.

~~~
s_kilk
>> reminds me of John Galt

Except the John Galt thing is based on the fantastical notion that a
"creative" withdrawing from society would bring everything to a grinding halt.

The secessio plebis is the withdrawal of labour power, a general strike.

~~~
emmelaich
Hmm, maybe.

But I think the typical labour back then was not as an employee but as a
independent concern. And they were pretty much the creatives of the day.

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basdp
Uh yeah.. cool? What makes it relevant for HN?

~~~
dang
There's a long tradition on HN of people posting unexpected Wikipedia
submissions for intellectual curiosity.

[https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html](https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html)

