

Ask HN: When is it ok to copy/steal an idea? - komlenic

More accurately: What's the difference between "stealing" an idea, and seizing an opportunity to "do it better"?<p>I find myself often shooting down ideas for websites/projects that I'd like to pursue, because "someone already did that" or I feel I would be stealing/copying the idea in some unethical fashion.<p>Is it unethical to see a poorly implemented but good idea and run with it?  Where's the line between "wow they did this better" and "wow these hacks totally stole that"?
======
euroclydon
Don't steal code, replicate functionality. Don't steal graphics, but be
inspired by a website's theme. Dont's steal trademarked or copyrighted
material.

~~~
komlenic
Good concise advice, and that's certainly a baseline. In my case I am speaking
(asking) more about replicating functionality or an idea, which is a lot more
difficult to know where to draw a line on.

~~~
euroclydon
In the U.S. software is copyrighted, not patented. Business Processes (and
other processes) are patented. Those processes may be entirely manifest by a
particular software implementation, so we think of the patent as being for a
software product. Business process patents are murky law right now, google
"Bilski".

So one line would be: if the idea isn't patented, or it is, but you don't
think the patent is valid, and have the money to back up your claim, or just
feel ornery, then go for it.

People replicate functionality all the time. Why should that be unethical? I
wouldn't just replicate it for no good reason. A good reason, and one that the
spirit of the law is supposed to support, is, does it provide new value to the
customer? Coincidentally, that is the same question you should be asking
yourself if you plan to take your work to market.

------
HeyLaughingBoy
The difference is "YOU stole MY idea" vs "I built a better implementation of
YOUR idea." In other words, just perception. remember how many different kinds
of cereal are in the store.

If you wanted to start a car company, would you be concerned about "stealing
ideas" because there were already other makes of cars on the market?

~~~
komlenic
I think your response hits at the intent of my question. It is widely held
that "execution matters more than idea", but I personally get tripped up by
feeling like something _has_ to come from my own light-bulb epiphany to be
authentic or ethical. Clearly this is wrong.

Is this model of scenarios more or less correct?:

1 copy a mousetrap design: _bad_ \------- ethical/unethical line ------- 2
build your own mousetrap (even if there's really nothing "new" about it), but
market it better or present it differently: _pretty good_ 3 build a better
mousetrap: _really good_ 4 invent a whole new way to trap mice: _awesome, not
likely_

2 and 3 are probably where the majority of successful business ventures fall.
Most 4's probably started as 2 or 3.

~~~
HeyLaughingBoy
Most 4's probably went out of business a long time ago. It's _hard_ to sell
something new in markets that don't trust new things.

You place the ethical/unethical line where you feel it should go; personally I
don't see anything wrong with copying designs. I have a few wealthy neighbors.
Know how they made their money? Everyday, boring easily copied stuff like car
washes, rental real estate or owning a couple of fast food joints. Even the
people I know who got rich from technology businesses were doing fairly
pedestrian stuff like industrial instrumentation that's been around since the
50's.

~~~
komlenic
What would you say if I saw <http://www.whosofftoday.com/> and built
essentially a clone at <http://www.timeoffscheduler.com/> ?

I'm sure I'd end up doing many little things differently than you, and maybe
even a few bigger things, but I'd love to hear your thoughts on this example.

~~~
HeyLaughingBoy
Honestly? I don't know if I'd care much. If it turned out to be a perfect
clone, I'd probably be a bit irritated, but in the end, imitation is the
sincerest form of flattery.

I've been involved in a few tiny ventures (only me, or at most one other
person) and one thing they've all had in common is that none of them were
unique except in the personal approach I took to them.

So, as an example, you could start a business producing readers for diesel
fuel flowmeters as I did, but would you have the same approach to customer
service as me? Would you go out of your way to make using the unit as easy for
your customer to use as you could?

The employee scheduler is the first software-only project I've ever done (and
it was started primarily to learn web development), so maybe my reaction to
being cloned would be different. But in the past I've built and sold hardware
devices that had plenty of cheap marketplace competition so I'm used to that.
My approach was to not care how many people were building the same thing or
how much less they charged, but to focus instead on how happy I could make my
customers.

I think of the product as a means to an end. The desired end result is profit
and happy customers. The product or service is just the route you take to get
there and really not that important in itself.

~~~
komlenic
Awesome reply, thank you - honestly, I was looking for validation of my own
similar thoughts on the subject. I have previously written about this subject
here (very similar to your response): <http://www.komlenic.com/242>

------
instakill
Always. Ideas are exactly that. If you even suspect that you can execute an
idea better than a version that is currently available or one that is being
set in motion, then there is no reason why you shouldn't attempt to execute
it.

If ideas were even half as regulated as the patent system, then the world
would be a miserable and stagnant place.

------
stonemetal
The line is innovation. If you actually bring something new to the table
people close to the original idea will still say cheap knockoff, but most
won't. Just look at the phone to blackberry to iphone progression no one
considers any of them to be knockoffs or stolen ideas even though they largely
innovated directly on what had come before.

~~~
tst
Totally, that is one sad thing about a lot of European startups. They take one
idea but don't innovate it.

------
brudgers
If there is a company doing business in the marketplace and you see an
opportunity to enter and compete in that market, that is entirely ethical
provided you do not infringe on their intellectual property. For example,
Noyce and Moore left Shockley to form Fairchild in order to pursue the
semiconductor market.

------
keesj
Instead of replicating/copying/stealing/whatever you could also try working
together.

Side note: if you come up with an idea and only -then- see it has already been
done, I wouldn't even consider it copying.

