
Techies Who Are Homeschooling Their Kids - tokenadult
http://www.wired.com/2015/02/silicon-valley-home-schooling/
======
tomohawk
Whether home schooled, private schooled, or public schooled, it's ultimately
the parent's responsibility to educate their child.

One danger of public schools is that parents can get a false sense of security
about whether their child is being properly educated. It can be easy to get
into autopilot mode and trust that there are good things going on at the
school. As long as the child is passing classes, being promoted to the next
grade on schedule, and gets a diploma everything should be good - no?

Unfortunately, such indicators don't appear to mean much. I know several
people who received extremely deficient educations, and yet passed all classes
and got a diploma. In one case, the person received their diploma without
knowing basic addition/subtraction or other arithmetic, and could barely read.
They've since taken years of private tutoring (at their own expense, since the
state owes them nothing once they grant the diploma). So, they could certainly
learn, but apparently the school didn't teach.

The parents in this case were not well educated themselves, and were trusting
that the school was doing its job. It's easy to throw rocks at them for not
paying more attention, but what the heck was the school doing?

There's certainly no perfect system, but parents who are taking on the
homeschooling responsibility deserve a lot of latitude and support.

~~~
aidenn0
At least in the part of California I live, there is no danger of even
marginally aware parents getting a false sense of security; it's blindingly
obvious that the kids aren't getting properly educated.

I knew the schools here weren't great, but I had no idea how bad they were
until my oldest started 3 years ago. We at least have a lot of options, with
my wife being a stay-at-home mom, and my salary being enough to afford modest
private school tuition. My heart breaks for those who are just making ends
meet with two earners (or only a single parent). They really have no options
other than the public school system, which is a shame.

[edit]

It also somewhat astonished me that the schools are so poorly funded; it's a
fairly affluent area with high property values, so I would have expected
better funding. California natives blame it on Prop 13, and I would like to
see the math on that; the per-student funding here today is about what it was
when I was in elementary school on the East Coast in the 80s, which is less
than half as much in real dollars.

~~~
SiVal
In most places in the US, the amount paid to schools has gone up far faster
than inflation over the past several decades, while the schools have produced
no significant improvement in educational proficiency with the extra funding.
It changes somewhat with exchange rates from year to year, but it is often the
case that every country that outperforms the US in public education spends
_less_ per student than does the US.

So, if giving the schools a lot more money bought no better educational
results, then continuing year after year to increase funding beyond inflation,
spending more than any educationally superior country, still left educational
outcomes essentially unchanged, what are the chances that the major problem is
the level of funding?

Isn't it a lot more likely that the major problem is what the school systems
actually _do_? If they could show that each 10% increase in funding in a given
location had produced an average 40 point gain in SAT scores, I would want to
talk about further funding increases in that location. On the other hand, if
they showed that each 10% increase in funding produced, well, 10% more for the
staff but nothing for the students, I would want to discuss changes other than
funding.

~~~
lukifer
One of the flaws of conventional school systems is the assumption that
learning can be reliably quantified. While measurement can have value,
something ineffable is lost when looking only at the numbers. How does one
test for critical thinking, or broadness of worldview, or emotional
intelligence, or general creative problem-solving?

~~~
SiVal
When someone offers to sell you unmeasurable benefits, guard your wallet.

I don't deny that there are things of value that are hard to quantify with
precision. That doesn't mean they can't be measured at all. For something to
be of value, it must have detectable consequences, at least statistically or
eventually. The detection of its consequence is a measurement, and that
consequence, even if roughly measured, can be compared to the cost to achieve
it. If it has no detectable consequences at all, though, it is not worth
paying for.

If the schools tell you that they are teaching "critical thinking", for
example, ask them for a demonstration of something a child can now do that he
couldn't before his critical thinking instruction. If they can come up with
something, they've figured out a way to measure it; if not, it's either just a
meaningless buzzword or they don't know enough about critical thinking to be
paid to teach it.

When they tell you that your past increases to their pay have produced no
measurable improvements but lots of unmeasurable improvements, tell them that
until they can find a way to measure those improvements, their future
compensation increases will be in the form of unmeasurable benefits.

------
delluminatus
Homeschooling is interesting, because it has the potential to be a lot better
for children than public school, but it can also be a lot worse. It is a topic
close to my heart because I was partly homeschooled, and I have seen firsthand
some of the sad deficiencies that can dog homeschooled kids:

1\. Lazy teaching – parents being unwilling to devote 4-6 hours each day to
education. Homeschooling is a commitment that should be treated with the same
gravitas as a full-time working position, but many parents have trouble
maintaining this mentality over many years of education. This leads to kids
that, although they might be bright, just haven't been taught much, which
makes them seem dull.

2\. Inherited ignorance – if the parents don’t know or care much about
history, unbiased politics, mathematics, literature, etc. then the kids won’t
either. Obviously, the parent can make a commitment to learn the field at
least to a high school level so they can educate their kids, but often this
commitment falls through. Because of that, homeschooled kids can lack a
multidimensional perspective of the world.

3\. Neuroticism – some parents have a tendency to like to make decisions for
their children. This can be very dangerous for homeschooled kids, because they
don’t learn how to think for themselves or make mistakes.

4\. Social gracelessness – a lot of homeschooled kids have very little
interaction with their peers. School can provide social acclimatization that
parents often don’t know how to give their kids. Especially if the kid is
naturally shy, since parents rarely want to put their kids in a social
situation where they are uncomfortable. Unfortunately, this can just
exacerbate the issue, to the extent that the kids have nervous breakdowns when
they finally do have to engage their peers (yes, I've seen this happen).

This is just the tip of the iceberg. I don't want to say that it's impossible
for one person (usually, it's just one parent that is home during the day) to
provide a well-rounded education to their kids, just that it's hard -- very,
very hard. You need to help your kids make friends, and you need to let them
be independent. You need to be a committed and capable educator, and you need
to give them a dynamic education with diverse experience, not just doing
workbooks in the house. Some people are good at this -- they are natural
teachers. Other people find it much, much harder.

~~~
iak8god
> 2\. Inherited ignorance – if the parents don’t know or care much about
> history, unbiased politics, mathematics, literature, etc. then the kids
> won’t either

It's even worse when parents care very much about giving their children wrong
information about topics. Many people I know were homeschooled by conservative
Christians who specifically wanted their children to believe things that are
not actually true: that the Earth is 6,000 years old, that condoms are not
effective at preventing pregnancy and tranmissions of STIs, that America's
founding fathers intended the place to be a Christian theocracy, that the
Bible gives a complete and accurate account of ancient history, and so on.

~~~
tomohawk
This statement really comes across as bigoted, and really just gives
ammunition to people looking for excuses to withdraw from society.

It takes all kinds to make up a society. You might think that an 18% pregnancy
rate (check wikipedia) for typical condom use is 'effective', but others may
not. You may not like what the Bible has to say, but others probably have a
different view. I don't see many Lutherans or Baptists running around blowing
up planes or burning down villages, but I do see alot of them involved in the
community in helpful ways, so I'm not too worried that they may be passing
their beliefs down to their children.

~~~
civilian
iak8god isn't bigoted. Hardcore Christians do an incredible disservice to
their children when the homeschool. My friend grew up in a Christian household
and, while he wasn't homeschooled, he was told that "science is bullshit
propaganda and we don't care if you don't do well in public school science".
At this point he's an atheist and he's pissed at his parents for it.

Yeah, they might be decent and kind people. But being kind and decent is not a
replacement for being effective.

> I don't see many Lutherans or Baptists running around blowing up planes or
> burning down villages,

Lutherans do get a mostly free pass, but you should listen to this:
[http://www.dancarlin.com/product/hardcore-
history-48-prophet...](http://www.dancarlin.com/product/hardcore-
history-48-prophets-of-doom/)

I suspect that there's a correlation between the amount of secular education
given to (or forced upon) a religious population and how peaceful they are.

~~~
WillPostForFood
The history of the 20th century would disagree. Cambodian killing field,
Soviet gulag, cultural revolution. The most rabid secular governments were
among the most brutal. Look at what's been happening in North Korea.

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Black_Book_of_Communism](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Black_Book_of_Communism)

~~~
jarin
I'd argue North Korea isn't a secular government. The Kims are portrayed to
their people as a lineage of gods under the divine authority of Kim Il-Sung,
and their people are forced to literally worship them.

Stalin's government was also very anti-religion, but it was based on
portraying him as a secular divine figure, "infallible sage, 'the greatest
leader', 'sublime strategist of all times and nations'", etc.

------
ladytron
Anyone who is not sure of 100% homeschooling can check with your local school
district to see if they allow part time students. I'm officially a
homeschooler by state law but my kids go to a local public school a few hours
a day, four days a week. They call it "fun school". They go to lunch, recess,
and all the specials (art, music, PE, technology, Spanish), and an extra
conversational Spanish class. They go on all the class trips, school concerts,
fundraiser parties, etc. They each have loads of "school friends" and get
invited to tons of birthday parties, etc. The public school kids in their
classes (an extremely diverse group)seem to love and accept them.

The "no schooling" concerns are valid and I think it is like running a
business - when you homeschool you might like some objective advisers outside
of your family to keep you on your toes. This "educational advisory panel" can
take many forms. For example, we use the Kumon private tutoring center to make
sure we don't miss any holes with English and the Mathnasium center and Khan
Academy to cover all the broad topics in math. These are private programs and
they are expensive but worth it - kids who go through them ace standardized
tests. It's very "tiger mom" and a good balance to the "unschooling"
philosophy. They are still way cheaper than private school for a big family
and they don't take much time out of the week. This leaves room for all those
"creative class, student led inquiry based projects" and
family/friend/socializing time pursuits.

It works for us :-)

~~~
beauzero
In some states, like Georgia, there are online partnerships that will handle
all of the school curriculum but allow the child to work at their own pace.
The only additional cost is the workspace/laptop, etc. that you need to
provide your child.

------
hkarthik
I've seen a few friends recently start homeschooling as a way to opt out of
the public school system without paying for private school.

In every one of these situations, the wife stays at home to raise and teach
the kids while the man works. In many ways it forces a continuation of
traditional gender roles, which I personally don't agree with.

So while I understand and agree with some of the decisions these folks are
making, there is a clear gender divide that they are ignorant of, or unwilling
to even talk about.

------
bko
> The Cook family are not just homeschoolers but unschoolers. They don’t
> prefer homeschooling simply because they find most schools too test-obsessed
> or underfunded or otherwise ineffective.

It's interesting that even those that are skeptical about the US educational
system system seem to cast the problem in very traditional terms. I think a
big problem with the educational system is about the inefficiency of the
bundling of goods.

A lot of value has been generated from un-bundling of goods in other sectors.
People used to read newspapers for news, sports, classifieds, op-ed, etc.
Today' many people get their news from one venue, sports from another, and so
on. I don't often hear people suggesting that maybe the system should be less
bundled so students/parents have a choice to take different classes from
different providers. A lot of schools may have good math programs but weaker
English programs but there is no reason that these classes have to be bundled
together. At the very least we should un-bundle sports from education.
Although sports are beneficial to many young people, having them tied to an
educational institute seems ridiculous.

In regards to what these parents are doing, I'm happy with any
experimentation. Hopefully some parents will be able to pool their resources
and serve groups of children. One parent can teach engineering to the
neighbors kids, and another can teach literature.

~~~
mhall119
> Hopefully some parents will be able to pool their resources and serve groups
> of children. One parent can teach engineering to the neighbors kids, and
> another can teach literature.

This happens quite a bit actually

~~~
ladytron
Marie Curie actually taught her kids this way for a few years. A small group
of friends (mostly college professors) each picked a subject. Marie designed
hands - on experiments to teach the group physics. She and Pierre Curie did
not think much of France's school system at the time. In her biography their
complaints about science education sound very contemporary. "The more things
change, the more they stay the same".

------
JacobAldridge
I harbour a vision to live a location independent lifestyle, which almost of
necessity would require some element of homeschooling (though I shared here
yesterday why this part hasn't moved from vision to strategy yet [1]).

That means keeping my eyes open for any similar experiences, and I've recently
fallen in love with these guys [2] because they're the first "family nomads"
I've come across who also talk about managing a mortgage back home etc (most
people on a permanent holiday are singles in their 20s and 30s - I need
assets, not cheap laundry tips).

This article in particular looks at the challenges they've overcome, and
extensive research they've found, in deciding positively to homeschool their
children abroad - [http://www.escapingexpectations.com/are-homeschooled-kids-
de...](http://www.escapingexpectations.com/are-homeschooled-kids-destined-to-
become-social-misfits-in-adulthood/)

[1]
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8994656](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8994656)
[2]
[http://www.escapingexpectations.com/](http://www.escapingexpectations.com/)

[Edit] Let me also add, in case he's too modest to, Karl's excellent
homeschool resource site Learn in Freedom - HN context and link
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5094480](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5094480)

------
marknadal
I was homeschooled and really enjoyed it. From my experience, the parents try
to foster a passion for continued learning and self learning.

With that perspective, a child grows up assuming their parent is biased and
seeks out competing views. This skill of analysis and synthesis is incredibly
critical.

We can definitely sometimes be socially awkward (I can spot other
homeschoolers a mile away) but I know a lot of friends who have become quite
successful in their careers which does take quite a bit of social skills.

My personal example is that I just raised money for my open source startup
([http://github.com/amark/gun](http://github.com/amark/gun)) tackling the
pains of databases. Most other homeschoolers I know went after the
legal/political fields though.

Feel free to ask me any questions. :)

------
breckinloggins
I like to catch conservative radio when I go on road trips. I find it
entertaining but I also find that it's valuable to listen to the so-called
"other side" every once in a while. I heard something on Limbaugh's show
several months ago on one of these trips that has stuck with me ever since.

A caller was telling Rush about a new bathroom policy in his neighborhood's
public elementary school that allowed transgendered children to use whichever
bathroom most closely aligned with their sexual identity.

To the caller, this was the height of liberal filth. He rejected not only the
idea that transgendered people really exist, but that a child would even HAVE
a sexual identity at an early age. He was furious that he was having to
explain to his son why a person who was "obviously a girl" got to use "his"
restroom. The upshot of all this was that he claimed that this was the point
he realized he was an alien in a secular universe, and that it was time to
pull his children out of public school and homeschool them.

Why did I tell that story? Why did it stick with me? Because, to me, it
highlights a feeling I've been having about something very profound that's
happening to America. I don't know if it's a wonderful thing or a disaster (or
both), but I have an irresistible gut feeling that it's happening.

I'm talking about the emergence of a new national mitosis.

North vs South, Red State vs Blue State, liberal vs conservative, religious vs
secular. Whatever you want to call it, Americans - it seems - are separating
themselves into two (or more) distinct and ideologically opposed groups. This
is nothing new, of course, but what IS new (at least in my memory) is that
there are fewer and fewer opportunities for common discourse. All sides are
not only furious at each other, they are genuinely mystified by each other.
That's why I found Rush's caller so interesting. I could hear something in his
and Rush's voice that was far beyond anger and the usual partisan name-
calling. It was pure cultural shock and confusion; like a martian landing in
Times Square.

So what does that all have to do with techies homeschooling their kids? It
strikes me as significant that though there is no simple way to divide these
two groups (and there is definitely overlap), both of them are beginning to
eschew public education. If you are passionately pro "tech" or passionately
pro "God", it seems there is little left that public schools (and mainstream
society itself) can offer you and your children.

These two groups have more alike than might first appear. Both groups feel
that there is something so rotten at the core as to be nigh unfixable (whether
loss of Biblical values on the one side or complete loss of intellectual
curiosity on the other).

I don't have any deep insights as to why we seem to be splitting into multiple
Americas or what might happen next, but I can feel that it's happening. If you
want to watch the proverbial canaries in the coal mine, watch who homeschools
their kids.

~~~
EliRivers
From an outsider's perspective, it's even odder; to us, the principal two
(two!) political parties are almost identical. Their ideologies are so similar
that sometimes I mix up which side is in favour/against which particular hot-
topic.

So the politics of the US seems, from this outsider's perspective, to be
extraordinarily similar until you get to the real fringes, and yet despite
(because of?) this similarity is so full of fury.

~~~
mmcconnell1618
A polite, rational conversation does not get high viewership in the media.
Television, radio, print all focus on the fringes because that's what
generates viewers/listeners/readers which in turn creates revenue.

People in the US can agree on a great many things but media allows them to
self reinforce extreme views. There are no requirements for balanced
journalism reflecting reality. When 95% of experts agree on something and get
the same 1 minute of air time that a representative of the 5% get it creates
the appearance that both arguments have equal value.

I can't fault media companies for catering to extremes because they are
businesses and the model has proven to drive more revenue. I don't think this
will change until the public starts rejecting fringe reporting (not likely to
happen anytime soon).

------
brogrammer90
I think these bottom of the barrel techies have got it wrong. How many home
schooled kids have been accepted as founders into YC? My guess is not very
many. Most founders are elite college graduates that come K-12 schools where
standardized testing is the norm.

~~~
ladytron
What is a bottom of the barrel techie?

The percentage of homeschoolers in the population is extremely low, so it is
doubtful that you would see a large group of them anywhere, including YC.

I assume a large portion of techie homeschooler's kids will go onto college,
some elite ones too.

Homeschoolers generally do very well on standardized tests like the SAT and
ACT because their literacy is very high.

------
n_to_the_flower
Suppose your child were exceptionally gifted. The "IEP"-ish customized
learning at one's own (accelerated) pace be homeschooling's major advantage:
to unlimit progress without being hindered by an impersonal, one-sized-fits-
all class. The critical part of homeschooling seems to be providing a mix of
play and unstructured learning with other bright kids. How would that work
with homeschooling in urban, suburban and rural areas? (I've seen some
homeschooling in rural areas, where kids have neighbors to play and go on
"field trips" with, but there isn't much choice in terms of other bright kids
able to work on science and maker projects together.)

------
fnordfnordfnord
I've had a few home-schooled students in my college courses. The most
memorable one was a fairly bright guy, excellent at math, and remarkably had
never heard of the civil rights movement of the 1960's or anything at all
having to do with race relations in the US. Between his lack of knowledge
about racial tension, and other factors, he was definitely socially awkward;
but everyone got through it unscathed. I don't think his parents were involved
in tech. Overall, his HS education was probably not better or worse by a large
degree than anyone else from one of the local high schools.

------
A_COMPUTER
I have some family friends who homeschooled their six kids. The first three
got a thorough, good education and were well-socialized. The last three, not
so much. Their mom was older and tired by then, and community support had
diminished after the 80's. I will say this though, even though a couple turned
out to be "problem children" anyway, they weren't uniquely bad compared to
troubled kids in public school.

------
epaga
Sadly, home-schooling continues to be illegal in Germany, a law which was
first instituted in the 1930s as the government wanted more control over
education.

The police will literally show up at your door and escort your kids to school
if you attempt to home-school.

~~~
zaphar
In elementary school in Texas I was home schooled and there were a number of
times that Police/Truant Officers showed up to _try_ to take us to school.

The legality of Home Schooling was very much up in the air in the early days.
No one ever succeeded in making it into the house since my Mom was _very_
educated about her rights and the rights of her kids and was totally capable
of standing up to anyone who came without a warrant.

As a child of 6-10 years of age I thought it was incredibly exciting. Our
family was rebelling against the Man!

~~~
walljm
this was a fairly common experience to those of us who were homeschooling some
30+ years ago (wow, has it been that long?).

i know lots of friends with similar experiences, having prepared statements to
tell adults who wanted to know why we were out during normal school hours,
having to wait until after 3pm to go outside to play just to avoid the
scrutiny.

------
icantthinkofone
fwiw, I homeschooled my two boys. One graduated summa cum laude from a well
known university. The other graduated in the top 10% of another well known
school. And I think I did a lousy job of it.

If enough people show an interest, I'll go into it more tomorrow but, for now,
I'm going to bed.

~~~
Rainymood
Please do. I am very intrigued.

~~~
walljm
I'll let zaphar tell his side of it (he's my brother), but the way I remember
mom telling it, the school was disinterested in dealing with certain issues he
was having in class.

The problem was, zaphar knew everything he needed to know in 1st grade before
he showed up the first day. He got excessively bored in class as a result and
developed a daydreaming habit his teachers didn't want to take the time
address. By the time he was in 2nd grade, he was learning nothing and fell
behind. The teachers met with my mom as they usually do and told her that they
were just going to pass him to the next class instead of keeping him back. Mom
thought that was "unacceptable" and that was part of what prompted my parents
to pull him out and homeschool us.

It took her a couple years to break him of the habit (and a lot of one on one
interaction).

There are probably other things zaphar might know, but that's how I remember
it.

As a result, I never went to public schools at all (with the exception of
drivers ed in highschool). Kindergarten was 30 mins a day for a summer. I
would run up to mom and say "let have school!" and then when i got bored we
would stop.

For the record, I was socially awkward. I'm naturally shy and that didn't
help. I eventually overcame that (though it does come out when i'm more
fatigued) and would like to think I can hold my own socially. But I doubt
public school would have been good for me. If it was anything like college
was, I would have done far worse academically. I hate lectures, they make me
sleepy and bored and I retain very little. I need to read and work the
problems to understand them. Mostly, I marvel at the waste of time. I could
typically do all my homework in ~4 hours (or less if i was being diligent) and
be done with school by lunch. Sitting for nearly 8 hours a day (given my
aggressively active nature as a child) would have been torture.

------
technomancy
If you haven't read Seymour Papert's Mindstorms book (ostensibly about the
creation of Logo, but actually more about math education facilitated by
exploring concepts through programming), it's a real eye-opener. It's one of
the main texts that got me excited about taking a hands-on role in my kids'
education.

