
Mutually Nonconsensual Sex - steven2012
https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2018/06/title-ix-is-too-easy-to-abuse/561650/?single_page=true
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mirimir
> "Male and female student have a drunken hookup. He wakes up, terrified she's
> going to file a sexual misconduct complaint, so he goes to the Title IX
> office and beats her to the punch. She is found guilty and suspended."

It was bound to happen. I'm surprised that I've not seen reports before. So
obvious.

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belorn
When Sweden first discussed to change the law for sexual assault and rape,
this was my fist thought. They changed the text to remove violence as a factor
and added in its place consent, which in concept sounds good since that is
more the central issue for what we recognize as assault.

But it does lead to the problem where two people can simultaneous accuse the
other of rape, and the problem of our current systematic response of treating
the accused as guilty by default. It is very hard if not impossible to
disprove for a school or public a lack of verbal or non-verbal consent. If
there is a benefit of being first to report then this kind of situation is
bound to recur.

On the positive side I predict we will see more understanding and light for
male victims. No more is strength and violence a factor, which has
historically been used as an argument why men can't get sexual assaulted. I
also predict that the clearing rate will go down in proportionality to the
number of reported cases, but will stay rather static in the proportionality
to the population.

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mamon
Why not abolish Title IX completely?

College students are adults, so the most serious (and possibly violent) sexual
offences can be prosecuted according to criminal law, and the rest is just
something two adults should be able to figure out by themselves.

Cases like the one described in the article are simply impossible to be
correctly assesed by the judge or jury: too little information, and all the
reasoning rules that one could apply are subjective and culture-dependent.

~~~
lwkl
I agree. In Europe universitys expect you to be an adult capable of managing
your life and don‘t involve themselves in it.

American colleges seem more like closed communitys with their own rules. Maybe
that‘s because most of the time only exchange students live on campus.

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acou_nPlusOne_t
Game theory meets sex-life. Prison dileman applied and first strike means you
win, but at the same time, you have to go cellibate to not give a weak spot
for revenge hook-ups.

Very soon, joining a amercian fraternity, will be equivalent to joining a
monastry. Which means, the political correctness is attacking the universitys
where it hurts- attractivenes to party students.

In the left corner, PC-Culture, in the right corner the dean and his
accounting.

What a tragedy, what a farce.

~~~
landryraccoon
Sorry if this sounds old fashioned and traditional, but shouldn’t universities
primarily focus on the quality of their education? I’m not exactly keen on my
tax dollars going to make schools better for parties and hooking up. Tinder
exists, if early twenty somethings want to hook up why are they spending $30K
and up of loans and parent’s savings on it? Heaven forbid they go to class and
study for midterms instead of fucking around at a frat...

~~~
throwarray74128
I'm currently attending University and I'd say for the majority of
Universities focusing on education the ship has long sailed. The alternative
to the "hookup" scene these days, which most people view as the "traditional"
college experience you refer to has been morphed into job seeking. Most
students do not go to class to learn, but rather to receive accreditation,
concerned only with how future employers will view their GPA or classes taken

There are a small or large number of people seeking to further their own
knowledge (depending on which specific university you are attending, it
seems), however most university curriculum could be reduced to a year or two
of self study. Most of the focus is on the schools perceived performance (as
measured by testing, GPA, attendance, etc) My particular University stops
giving programming projects after 2nd year for students following the Software
Engineering course meaning many students have not programmed in 2 years when
they graduate, although from what I hear this is not normal for all schools in
my area, however I suspect it is because many students could not handle
programming above a 101 level.

This has led to an increase reliance of student groups: those that have a
thirst for learning great student groups focusing on self study whether for
improving class performance or just learning for the sake of learning. However
often times if a group gets too successful the college they are a part of
entices them with offers of making their group into an official class for
school credit, which transfers control to a professor, again creating the
problem where performance is measured by tests, and the cycle repeats when a
new wave of students join the college.

~~~
landryraccoon
> Most students do not go to class to learn, but rather to receive
> accreditation, concerned only with how future employers will view their GPA
> or classes taken

I’m super skeptical of this. In any engineering or science field the only
thing a diploma gets you is an interview. I don’t consider myself an
especially adept interviewer but I think I can tell in the first five minutes
if a new grad didn’t learn anything in school.

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jobigoud
Startup idea: proof of consent as a service.

A website/app where you can quickly declare consent for a specific activity,
and share that declaration privately with a specific other user of the app.
Each entry is secure/private to only you and the person you share it with. The
entries are timestamped, you cannot delete them.

Then before the act, you quickly do a consent exchange and each person has the
proof that the other consented.

You could make the entries visible only for a period of time to their own
users, after which they are only accessible if there is a legal process, to
avoid them being used as trophies/outing.

Obligatory Dave Chapelle Love contracts: [http://www.cc.com/video-
clips/jwmvxd/chappelle-s-show-love-c...](http://www.cc.com/video-
clips/jwmvxd/chappelle-s-show-love-contract)

~~~
dsr12
Such a service does exist: [https://legalfling.io/](https://legalfling.io/)

But such services won't work as consent can be revoked anytime. It doesn't
matter if you signed a contract, you can at any point say "No" and the consent
is gone.

~~~
sametmax
It's funny cause i live in a very sexually active community, with bdsm, porn
pro, ex prostitute, etc. The people being recognize as the sexiest and having
the most partners never, ever ask anything.

I have the very unique life style that makes half of my friends also hard core
geeks, d&d players, hairy sysadmin, or able to tell which multiverse this
particular batman costume is. They are also doubting every of their moves : is
it allowed, it it disrespectful, will the other one be offended or hurt ? They
really don't have much sexual success.

I love both of my groups, and none in them exhibit any signs they are better
or worse persons. But i didn't experience that explicitly asking for consent
made things better.

Not being an asshole does, and is pretty much unrelated to sex.

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Khaine
Hopefully, this is the start of people realising that Obama's 'Dear Colleague'
change in interpretation of title IX was a mistake.

~~~
watt
This seems an obscure reference to something people outside U.S. will not get.
Care to elaborate?

~~~
boomboomsubban
Title IX is part of an education bill that outlaws discrimination or exclusion
based on sex in public schools. Violating this results in a loss of federal
financing or fines.

During the 90's and 00's, the courts ruled that sexual harassment constitutes
an exclusion based on sex, and a failure to address it is a Title IX
violation. In 2011, a government agency tasked to enforce civil rights laws
published a "Dear Colleagues" letter clarifying what steps are necessary to
ensure compliance in sexual harassment cases.

~~~
Khaine
And this caused universities to set up what amount to kangaroo courts to
adjudicate sexual harassment complaints

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tomtimtall
Sounds like a pretty run of the mill sexual assault. Guy follows drunk girl
home and is too aggressive in trying to her to do something she doesn’t want
ending with him forcefully putting her hand on his junk against her will. Only
ofcause this is all very “troubling” because the sexes are reversed.

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dsr12
I think such issues can be avoided to an extent by a wearable device which can
track your alcohol content or track if you are conscious. If at any point it
detects you are not in control of you sense, maybe raise alarm, send alerts to
friends/family etc. Maybe it will help in avoiding such incidents under the
influence of alcohol or other drugs.

Netflix created something for fun to detect if you are awake or not:
[http://makeit.netflix.com/projects/socks](http://makeit.netflix.com/projects/socks)
. I wish someone creates something similar to save people from horrible
situations.

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beer_cub
This woman is an anti-feminist nutjob, I can't believe she'll still writing
opinion pieces for the Atlantic...

~~~
stormking
If you seriously want to defend a practice where two people do the same thing
and then one of them is declared the victim and the other the perpetrator,
based on either gender or whoever complains first, then you are the nutjob.

~~~
acou_nPlusOne_t
If you drill hard enough, what comes out is actually not a interest in justice
or society - quite contrary- its about power, pure, un-diluted power, to chase
out and behead, whoever you wish to declare to be a missfit.

And it has been here before, in all shapes and sizes. Its the social skill
superiors equivalent of facism.

