
Ask HN: Cheap places to live with a good intellectual atmosphere? - throwawaygoaway
I&#x27;m a software engineer in the bay area and have been thinking about moving somewhere cheaper (in USA or aboard) where I can live cheaply and focus on my own intellectual pursuits. I&#x27;d love to be in a place where the living costs are low and where there exists a thriving intellectual community (I&#x27;ve noticed cities near top academic institutions tend to create that sort of atmosphere but not necessarily). I&#x27;d prefer a place where English speakers are common enough such that I won&#x27;t feel isolated by a language barrier. I haven&#x27;t traveled too often and would love to hear from HN community about any places that match this general description. Thank you in advance!
======
cbames89
I'd highly recommend the triangle area in North Carolina. In Raleigh, there
are a large number of tech companies, RHE, Cisco, IBM, Unreal Engine, just to
name a few. It has the second highest % of computer science PhDs, and it's
home to NC State, Duke University, and UNC. It's also a cultural hotspot for
Blues creativity. Many of the best contemporary blues artists are located here
in the triangle. The cost of living is relatively low. The rent I paid for 3
months in Redwood City, would have paid my mortgage here for 14 months. The
southern part of NC is an agricultural center and thus food is relatively
inexpensive. We usually spend ~500 a month.

In addition, Durham, in particular, is a melting pot of Northerners and
Southerners. This has lead to some wonderful conversations where regional and
cultural expectations were questioned.

Lastly, there are several startups here that are actively recruiting the best
people away from the groupthink and costs that are currently dominating the
bay area.

~~~
Technetium
If you think you're going to have a good time living in the Carolinas, then I
genuinely hope that you don't plan on being black or gay outside of a major
city. There is a ton of bigotry and racism still present there, and the
politicians in charge are happy to see it continue.

~~~
mindcrime
As a native North Carolinian who grew up in a rural part of the state, I can
confirm that there is a substantial difference between the rural parts of the
state, and places like the Triangle region, in this regard. There definitely
are still racists, bigots, homophobes, etc. and they are more common when you
get out into the country areas.

That said, it's _not_ the case that every 3rd person you meet is a KKK member,
raging homophobe, or conservative snake-handling fundamentalist who refuses to
send their kids to the doctor, or any of those other stereotypes. Those people
exist, but even in the rural areas they aren't necessarily ubiquitous -
although this will obviously vary from region to region, town to town, and I
haven't lived in every part of NC, so there are probably some spots that are
especially bad that I don't know about.

But anyway, the conversation about was about living in the Triangle area
around Raleigh/Durham/Chapel Hill, and this region seems to be in pretty good
shape as far as tolerance, diversity, etc.

~~~
tuxxy
Can confirm.

Born and raised in rural North Carolina. The racism and bigotry and religious
zealotry is very prevalent there. Durham, Raleigh, and Charlotte are all nice
cities. However, you should really stick to those areas if you're not wanting
to deal with any trouble.

------
nelsonic
Depending on your ability to work remotely, I would make the "case" that you
should consider _Portugal_.

Lisbon and Porto are super popular with ["digital nomad"] remote workers who
work for international companies so earn in USD but spend [much less] in Euros
for a superb lifestyle.

There's a _reason_ @paddycosgrave moved Web Summit to Lisbon. It's one of the
cheapest cities in Europe and [unlike Barcelona] _everyone_ speaks English.
There is a good "tech scene" and a _fantastic_ work-life-balance; surf, great
food & warm/welcoming people.

A few things to consider that _many_ people over-look: \+ Socio-Economic and
Political stability. \+ General safety/security and crime levels. \+
Sanitation and healthcare availability/cost. \+ Availability/cost of healthy
[organic/unprocessed] food. \+ Lifestyle to actually _live_ in the place: is
it "cheap" but a nightmare to live there? \+ Contract-law for short-term
apartment/room rentals.

Portugal will _exceed_ your expectations on all of these.

Portugal is _very_ welcoming to US citizens, you won't have any "visa issues"
the way you will in many of the [superficially] "cheaper" Asian countries.

If you want your budget to stretch _much_ further, consider Braga. The cost of
living is less than a third of SF, internet is fast and you get _most_ of the
benefits of Porto & Lisbon (or can reach those cities with a short train
journey).

 _Note_ : I am [slightly] "biased", my Wife and I have recently "escaped" from
London [after working there in tech for 10 years] and we are busy setting up a
Co-living/Co-working House in Braga:
[https://github.com/dwyl/home](https://github.com/dwyl/home) We will be
opening at the end of this month and our target cost per month [1Gbps
Internet, all bills, cleaning & gym included] is $300 (USD).

We _chose_ Braga because it has _all_ the "ingredients" for an _awesome_ place
for tech/creative people to escape the _bigger_ cities and focus on their work
while still having access to _all_ the amenities great healthcare, superb
organic/vegan food and good libraries/meetups/etc.

~~~
mhjas
I have had my eye on Portugal for a number of years, but there are a few
things that seem less than ideal.

* Cost of living for a good quality of life still being relatively high or rising, especially in Lisbon and other tourist/expat areas. And a second tier city in Portugal is much less of a clear choice since that is comparable to a lot more places.

* The tax system being very complicated. One can always argue about how much tax to pay, but few people want a complicated tax system, especially not as a foreigner. (And is usually an indication that other systems are complicated as well).

* The tech scene not really happening. Despite the usual "next Silicon Valley" it doesn't really stand out from anywhere else as far as I can tell.

There might certainly be things I don't see, but at least initially it doesn't
seem like Portugal rise above the competition to the extent that you wouldn't
have to consider quite a few other options.

~~~
jonathanstrange
I don't understand the comment about the tax system. Which taxes are you
talking about?

As I've said in another comment, IRS is literally filling out an online app
for 5 minutes - and all relevant entries are already pre-filled. It's very
easy and simple.

As for companies, my girlfriend works at a company run by two Germans and they
basically hire an accountant to do the paperwork every year. It's pretty
cheap. For a larger company, you'd have to hire a local to do the accounting,
though.

Maybe I'm missing something because I don't run my own company, bear in mind
that hiring freelancers is cheap here.

~~~
mhjas
Freelancing, starting companies and the NHR scheme (which is sort of an
exception but still) seems to have a lot of deductions, conditions and
exceptions that require more guidance than some other countries. Maybe this is
something one adapts to, but it still seems like an initial hurdle for
foreigners.

------
msadowski
If you feel adventurous you can consider moving to Poland. I would recommend
Krakow. Most young people will speak English, there are couple of top
Universities there (PK and AGH for technical schools, UJ for humanities,
medicine and some tech too and UE for economics). The tech scene seems to be
constantly growing, with lots of international companies having their offices
there. As a senior dev in Poland you can earn somewhere between 12-20k PLN a
month. Renting a flat will be between 1.5-3k PLN(~400-800USD) depending on thr
standard. Additional perks you can enjoy is free(as you pay it on your taxes)
healthcare, amazing food, great nightlife and proximity of other European
countries (the flights are super cheap).

~~~
flavor8
You'd have to be quite apolitical to consider a move to Poland right now.

~~~
kgabis
If you ignore weekly nazi rallies and all the book burning it's not such a bad
place./s

Seriously though, Poland is one of the safest place to live in right now,
especially if you're a foreigner. Media's portrayal of current political
situation in Poland is HUGELY exaggerated.

~~~
SpecialistEMT
First sentence but unironically and it's getting worse.

~~~
Pimpus
Where in Poland do you live that you get such an impression? Do you even
experience such things or are you just listening to the propaganda?

------
amm
Vienna, Austria.

It has been ranked the most liveable city in the world for some years in a
row.

Cost of living is low compared to the European average; you can rent a medium-
sized apartment for 600-700€/month.

Everyone speaks English. Co-workers from Spain never bothered with German,
because they can get anything done in English.

Viennas public transport system is cheap (30€/month) and excellent. You can
get anywhere in the city in a reasonable amount of time. Generally, all public
infrastructure is in great shape.

The tech-scene is so-so. It's certainly not London or Berlin, but there are
some startups if that's your thing. There are plenty of enterprise IT jobs in
banking, insurance or government.

Education and healthcare are free and nature is close. It's a 1 1/2 hour drive
and you're skiing in the Alps; 2 hours and you're in the Salzkammergut
swimming in mountain lakes.

All in all, it's a great city to raise a family.

~~~
BugsJustFindMe
Vienna would be a lot nicer if they didn't still allow smoking in bars and
restaurants.

"Just don't go to the smoking places."

A very large percentage of the adult population in Vienna still smokes
tobaccco. When I was there in 2017 it felt like there were no non-smoking
places.

~~~
thijsvandien
This. Vegetarians can have a hard time when going to restaurants too. As a
non-smoking vegetarian, I wasn't having a great time going out.

------
dsiegel2275
This is easy. Pittsburgh.

Consistently ranked as a top city in the US, and world, to live in, in no
small part due to the comparatively cheap cost of home prices, rent, and
living in general. For example, there are nice neighborhoods in the city where
one can buy a three bedroom, 2000sq foot house for < $150,000. I think that
would buy a closet in the Bay area.

With Carnegie Mellon University here, the 'intellectual' and more specifically
the tech scene is thriving. I work for (and take classes at) CMU and see this
first hand. Numerous big tech companies have set up shop near campus (Google,
Apple, Facebook, Amazon, Uber, etc). There are many, well funded, startups
operating out of the city as well (e.g. Duolingo, Petuum), most of which have
spun out of CMU.

~~~
pc86
Pittsburgh is great. I live in a city you've never heard of and pay $1125/mo
for a one bedroom apartment. A good friend of mine lives in Pittsburgh and
pays $1200/mo for a 5 bedroom house (rental) in an unpopular but safe and
growing neighborhood of Pittsburgh proper. The cost of living is insanely low
and Pennsylvania is a low tax state (flat 3.2% person income tax), which
compared to California can equal a few hundred dollars a paycheck for the
higher incomes.

Keep in mind though that a _lot_ of San Francisco and NYC folks move to
Pittsburgh for a year or two then leave because it's not San Francisco or NYC.
Public transit sucks. Traffic is really bad during rush hour (not SF bad, but
it is one of the worst in the state, probably second only the Schuylkill
Expressway going into Philadelphia). Nobody lives downtown because there are
no supporting services downtown like grocery stores or anything like that. You
110% need a car to live there.

~~~
AYBABTME
I wonder how to reconcile your point about lack of public transport,
supporting services and liveability downtown (seems like it's not liveable)
and the parent's claim about Pittsburg being top rated city in the world for
liveability.

~~~
pc86
It depends on your definition of liveability. If you require the ability to
get an apartment downtown, do all your shopping downtown, and commute downtown
without buying a vehicle, Pittsburgh is not liveable. But I would argue that
outside of NYC and _maybe_ {San Francisco,Chicago,DC}, no US city is liveable
by that definition.

I think it's very liveable if you're realistic about what liveable means in a
mostly suburban part of the US - driving into downtown for work and pleasure,
and leaving for everything else.

~~~
squarjn
> think it's very liveable if you're realistic about what liveable means in a
> mostly suburban part of the US

Yeah, for me "livable" means "not suburban." I'm one of those people who came
to Pitt thinking it would be like mini-NYC and was massively disappointed.

As you mentioned, if you want to live in a big house here, the prices are a
steal... but on the other hand, if you want a nice studio or one-bedroom, the
market is just OK. I'm paying $1,300 for my one-bedroom. On the other hand, if
I lived in Manhattan I could get a similar place for $1,800 and I'd make at
least $15K more a year in salary... so I don't know if the cost of living here
is really all that good for what you get.

------
Kuiper
I'm a full-time freelancer/remote worker. In late 2016, I made the decision to
move to Pittsburgh, partly persuaded Paul Graham's talk about how Pittsburgh
could become a startup hub. (PG grew up in Monroeville, 10 miles east of
Pittsburgh.)

Transcript:
[http://www.paulgraham.com/pgh.html](http://www.paulgraham.com/pgh.html)
Video:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CpfdtgW6_oI](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CpfdtgW6_oI)

I feel really good about the decision, CMU feels like a peer of Stanford and
MIT but living here is substantially cheaper than living in Cambridge or Palo
Alto. (I pay ~$750 for a 1-bedroom apartment that's ~1.5 mile from CMU
campus.) The legacy of Randy Pausch's Building Virtual Worlds was also a draw
for me personally, as I work in game development and was coming of age when
Randy Pausch's delivered his famous Last Lecture (if you had asked me in 2008
who my personal heroes were, Randy Pausch would be the first name out of my
mouth). Going to gamedev meetups has kind of allowed me to insert myself into
the CMU alumni network post hoc. Very green (lots of beautiful neighborhoods),
hip enough for my tastes, and the intellectual climate is everything I had
hoped it would be.

If you want to live in a city where companies like Google, Uber, Amazon, and
Apple have offices, Pittsburgh may be your cheapest option.

Some discussion of Pittsburgh's (tech) climate on this article from last year:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14832249](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14832249)

------
Kovah
There are some smaller German cities like Göttingen which have - in my opinion
- a high intellectual atmosphere because they are so called university-cities:
lot's of students and academics in a rather small city. And, in comparison
with big cities like Berlin or Munich, the rents are much cheaper: from what I
know you pay 2/3 to half of the price for the same amount of space. Example: a
flat with 55-60 qm is about 600-900€ in Berlin, and about 400-600€ in
Göttingen.

Well.. and if you don't mind high rents: Berlin as the German Silicon Valley
has tons of job offers for you, highly diverse and open-minded people and
there would be no language barrier because so many people here speak English.

~~~
tetrazine
This is true. Lots of other mentions of Germany in this thread with good
points. The downsides to Germany that Americans and Canadians (and to a lesser
extent British) might perceive:

\- Constant store closures. Almost all Sundays and numerous holidays, almost
all stores, including groceries, are closed. Don't forget to get milk or you
have to trek to the central train station.

\- Very bad international food. Even in major German cities, the food (outside
of German, Middle Eastern, and _some_ European cuisine) is simply not on par
with places like the Bay Area or London.

\- Less outwardness as a social norm. I am sure there will be debate over
this. But I think many will agree it is hard to make friends with non-expats
even when there is no or little language barrier, compared to many North
American social contexts.

\- Lots of bureaucracy and dependency trees of ID and permits, even for simple
things like getting a train pass. As a reference, it costs 1500-2000 EUR to
get a driver's license in Germany (including mandatory training classes), much
higher than in the US or Canada. Also, there is a refugee crisis choking the
German immigration system and it may take much longer than normal to get
immigration-related matters sorted out.

\- More public smoking, including on patios and inside bars and clubs. If you
are sensitive to cigarette smoke don't plan to go to any nightclubs.

\- Serious environmental policies, which would be admirable if it weren't for
the Autobahn and all the coal that Germany burns. Have fun drying your sheets
and towels on clotheslines in the middle of winter and don't expect AC during
the summer.

Some of this is generic to Europe, much of it less true in Berlin than
elsewhere, and there are lots of positives to Germany that have been mentioned
in this thread. Good luck!

~~~
yorwba
> \- Serious environmental policies, which would be admirable if it weren't
> for the Autobahn and all the coal that Germany burns. Have fun drying your
> sheets and towels on clotheslines in the middle of winter and don't expect
> AC during the summer.

I'm not sure whether you're trying to imply causality between environmental
policies and the prevalence of clothes dryers and AC, but you can certainly
get those things (although they might need to fulfill some energy-efficiency
criteria).

You won't find them in most apartments, but that's because Germans usually
don't think they're necessary. Clotheslines continue to work in winter and the
number of really hot days is too low for an AC to be worth it.

~~~
raverbashing
Oh yeah, Germans "love" the heat

Their attitude towards AC are offset by how early and high they turn the heat
on in the year.

But I never had to dry stuff out in the cold. (Lack of AC is annoying though).
You might get that if you Airbnb a place from some old lady though.

------
crispyambulance
So you haven't traveled too often, but are considering relocating yourself to
somewhere you've never been?

There's nothing wrong with that. However, I would recommend that before you
attempt to settle down or start using the word "relocate" you do a bit of
serious traveling.

One could say that there's a place in the world for every person. One could
also say that people adapt to wherever they are. Both are partially true, I
think. The only way you'll know what works for you is if you live there for a
while and are able to compare it with other places where you've lived. To do
that you need the perspective afforded by a lot of travel.

It's one of those "opportunity cost" decisions. How many places do you need to
visit, how many do you need to reject? What is your criteria for a short-list?
Only you can answer that.

~~~
bsvalley
+1 True

Though, traveling while on "vacation" and moving to a place are 2 different
things. You could get a very positive vibe when you visit a new place several
times because "entertainment" is roughly 80% of your goal. But from
experience, things usually don't turn out that well when you settle and dig a
little more by doing "boring" stuff. Things that travelers don't have to think
about. But it goes back to your second point: "people adapt to wherever they
are".

~~~
crispyambulance
Yes, you're right about the difference between tourism and living.

By "serious travel" I meant to indicate long lengths of time away in other
places conducting one's life-- not simply a PTO allocation.

------
larodi
Check Bulgaria's Sofia capital - is top notch. Lots of concerts, events, bars,
meetups, conferences, sports facilities. Is still growing lot in terms of IT,
hundreds of job postings, major companies such as VMWare, HPs, Codix, SAP all
have big offices here - check Linkedin. senior positions after taxes pay
1000-2000EU. Rents are 400-600EU for a very decent central place 80m^2 +
furniture. 4 mountains around the city, 4+ winter resorts in less than 4 hours
distance, 4 hours from both Black Sea and Greece's coastal line. Summer time
27-30 degrees, winter -10. Closest mountain is 30min from city center -
trekking, and some ski facilities. The city is safe.

~~~
mahasvin
Not much English speakers there, very mediocre roads in the city. However, the
food is great, life is cheaper then in England, but not as cheap, as it may be
at Chiangmai. Or in Scotland.

~~~
simplyinfinity
Mediocre roads indeed, but you can manage to get around the city by public
transport. While public transit can be sometimes late, or some buss lines use
old busses. it's A+ compared to US public transport, but not as great as the
London or Paris (tho the metro is newer and cleaner than Paris). Public
transport card for all lines for 1 year is 365 levs - 185 eur. Rent prices
currently are on the high end and can run you between 300-500 eur. For food, i
personally eat take out twice a day and over the last few months my average
spend for food & drinks is ~ 300 eur. If someone has other questions about
Sofia, feel free to e-mail me or comment here :)

~~~
kfk
long shot, but any chance you know a way to find short term rentals in the
city center? I currently live in Lozenets and while I love it I’d prefer
something more central like say Rakovski street

~~~
mahasvin
Speaking of Lozenets - it has one of the best wine shops in Bulgaria. And it
is definitely a Big Plus. Actually, I have summer office in Sozopol and it
works OK, just you will need to be prepared of VIVACOM 24-48hrs downtime once
or twice per season. Otherwise OK. Business wise, Bulgaria for a foreigner is
very good, banking is OK.

------
tropdrop
If you would like to remain in United States and do not mind having proper
seasons, I would strongly consider Chicago, the last affordable big city in
the United States.

University of Chicago pulls a robust intellectual community (81 Nobel
Laureates), but there is also a deep intellectual history around the arts and
music that transcends the work of the university - something that I'm not sure
I can say for a place like Cambridge.

The Art Institute has many of the paintings you might have seen in middle
school history books, which is telling in of itself - and while everyone
remembers Chicago's jazz, few know that it also invented house music (and a
variety of other genres). It's home to many a political movement. It has
unparalleled and extremely diverse architecture. The tech scene is doing great
- and if any place will upset racial diversity in tech, it will certainly be
this city.

People feel like they have a general sense of good will towards their
neighbors, without losing the quick pace only a big city will offer you.

Most importantly and to your point - there is a respect for intellectual
exchange no matter the discipline - Tech? Economics? Art? Policy? Medicine?
Michelin-starred cuisine? I can't think of a field that you can't pursue with
confidence in Chicago.

A completely trivial aside - one of the biggest complaints I hear from expats
of the Bay Area is a lack of great Mexican food in Boston/Europe/etc. Thanks
to a neighborhood called "Little Mexico" (which really does feel like being
transported to the Mission), Chicago may be the furthest east you can go while
still being able to find authentic Mexican food.

~~~
Shorel
What would be authentic Mexican food?

~~~
tptacek
Chicago has an _enormous_ Latinx population and very good Mexican food. Tripe
tacos. Ridiculous mole. Goat stew. Tortas and cemitas.

------
ChefboyOG
If you want to remain in a major US city with a lower cost of living, great
quality of life, and thriving intellectual community, I'd strongly recommend
checking out Chicago.

While it's not as cheap as many cities you'll find abroad, it is extremely
affordable compared to US cities. The food is fantastic and affordable. There
is a wonderful intellectual community. The nightlife is amazing, if you're
into that. It's also possible to find lots of space, as the city is
geographically massive with many different neighborhoods with diverse vibes.

The big downside is the winter. However, if you know how to dress for the
weather and don't live somewhere incredibly remote, you can mitigate a lot of
that inconvenience.

Again, you'll be paying more than you would in Thailand, but for the US it's
really fantastic.

~~~
phatboyslim
To counter this, as someone who lives in Chicago, there are some additional
drawbacks beyond the weather:

\- Taxes are extremely high here, with no sign of slowing down

\- Political corruption is rampant in the state

\- Crime is mostly relegated to south side of city, but it's still an issue

\- Public works are decaying: train stations, airport, and everything else
look like they need work

\- Schools are undesirable and a magnet/charter school has very high
competition.

My wife and I have lived here our whole lives and are considering joining
several friends who have recently moved to the Nashville area to alleviate the
above mentioned items. There is no state income tax in TN, public schools in
suburbs are good w/ only a 20 minute drive into the city. There are some
drawbacks but we're comfortable with the trade-off.

~~~
60654
I hear taxes brought up a lot, but they're actually on par with major metro
areas. Let's compare Chicago to SF:

1\. Effective property tax rate: SF ~1.2%, Chicago ~1.7% *

2\. State income tax: SF 9.3%+, Chicago 4.95%

3\. Combined state, county + city sales tax: SF 8.5%, Chicago 10.25%

(* But property taxes do get _much higher_ in the suburban townships!)

Altogether, the lower state income tax more than offsets the slightly higher
property tax.

But taxes is a favorite bugbear in local political campaigns, because they're
an easy item for politicians to harp on (who doesn't want lower taxes after
all?). The other day I saw a political ad where the actor proclaimed, "I'm
moving out of Illinois because taxes are too high! Support XYZ for governor."
But let's be honest, uprooting one's family just to optimize a few percentage
points on the tax return is a _terrible_ idea. And as long as there are good
jobs available, taxes are just one living expense among many.

As for the other items, I can't agree with them either. Chicago Public Schools
are totally fine - they're very much focused on educating working-class and/or
immigrant kids, so they're not like rich suburban schools with all the bells
and whistles, but they do their job very well. And the magnet schools are top
notch. Public works are a patchwork, but for example CTA is very well funded
and runs much better than either MTA or MUNI. As for corruption - ok, I'll
give you that one. ;)

~~~
lotsofpulp
If you're thinking about long term, 10 to 20+ years into the future, you need
to look at the state's debt, namely unfunded defined benefit pension
obligations. IL is the worst, and that's using rosy assumptions:

[https://graphics.wsj.com/table/Connecticut_102015](https://graphics.wsj.com/table/Connecticut_102015)

Combined with the fact that the rest of IL isn't burgeoning, and that Chicago
is the main source of income, it would be prudent to expect ever increasing
taxes and reduced services. Other states also have problems, but there are a
few states whose problems are in another league.

Personally, I would need a big discount to consider Chicago, as being outdoors
is a big part of my life.

~~~
60654
Yeah, if the pension plan had no assets, the state would be in deep trouble,
as would most others. But in terms of pension cashflow as a fraction of total
assets, IL is actually doing _really_ well, better than the vast majority of
states: [https://www.pewtrusts.org/en/research-and-analysis/issue-
bri...](https://www.pewtrusts.org/en/research-and-analysis/issue-
briefs/2018/04/the-state-pension-funding-gap-2016)

Which is what allowed politicians to kick the can down the road for so long.
So yes, there is a hole and it needs to be plugged. But this is a big state,
plan assets are considerable, and there's a lot of new contributions coming in
all the time as well. This won't trigger "ever increasing taxes" as some
doomsaying politicians put it, there can be a correction once there is
political will to do so.

~~~
lotsofpulp
The deficit is including any returns on existing plan assets. And each year,
the share of the tax receipts that go towards paying debt (including pensions)
keeps increasing. Obviously, something will have to be cut to make up for
this.

------
siquick
Barcelona - one of the best all-around cities in the world
(climate/culture/architecture/world proximity/quality of
living/beach/mountains) and a growing tech scene.

Very easy to pick up development work here for a local company, you won't be
required to know Spanish/Catalan for a job. The only downsides are that the
pay is relatively low (€43k average for SE) and it can be quite difficult to
find a place to live without local contacts.

Edit - on the intellectual front, I am the least qualified person in my friend
group with a lowly Bachelors in Computer Science. Most people have a minimum
of Masters with PHDs being pretty prevalent.

~~~
alt_f4
Barcelona is not one of the best all-around cities for sure.

1) climate -- not moderate, only good if you enjoy extremely hot summers

2) culture -- obscured by the tourism industry in the city. Pretty much all
restaurants try to rip you off, public parks charge entry for certain areas,
everything culture-related is aimed and priced for tourists.

3) architecture -- nice, but not really exceptional. buildings really tight
together in the city center.

4) quality of living - very high cost of life, low local salaries

5) EXTREMELY dirty. Diesel car pollution makes the air toxic and unbearable.
No walking culture, everyone drives everywhere (which makes sense, the air is
toxic)

I would not move there.

~~~
calgoo
As someone who has lived in Barcelona for over 23 years now I agree with some
of these points, but it also depends where you go in the city.

1) Climate - Yes the summers are warm, but not extremely hot, I have a lot
worse time when i go visit the southern US for example.

2) Yes I totally agree we have way too much tourism in the city. However, the
restaurants that try to rip you off etc are all in the touristy areas, and
most of us who live here dont go down to those areas anyway. Regarding paying
for parks, its 1 park, and if you live here its free. Most colture-related
stuff has good cheaper offers for local citizens.

3) This is just personal taste, the city center is the old city with over 1000
years of history, its normal that the streets are small and disorganized.

4) Yes its expensive to live here, but we also have a great quality of life,
with lots of places to go eat, drink and enjoy yourself. Yes the local
salaries are quite on the low end, but if you find a good international
company you should be fine.

5) I dont know where you come from, but its not unbearable; also there is tons
of walking culture in this city. There is an great public transport that can
get you almost anywhere in the city in just a few minutes. Most people dont
drive, or even own a car, its mostly people living outside the city (or on
rainy days). We do have days that are worse in regards to traffic and
pollution, but this is a problem most large cities are facing and there are
projects in place to improve.

So im sorry if you have had a bad time in Barcelona, and I agree there are
things that need work, but its not as horrible as you say. Hopefully they keep
adding bike lanes and continue to reduce the car traffic in the city center.

~~~
siquick
Thank you for the sane response.

Having lived in the worlds most liveable city, Melbourne, for several years, I
have so far found Barcelona to be far more enjoyable. The thing that has stood
out is that people actually care about their city and socio-political events
that affect their lives.

I personally think the tourist issue is overhyped and most of them don't stray
from the centre of the city.My local beach, Mar Bella which is only 1.5-2km
from the city has zero tourists. Airbnb is a problem but this is a global
phenomenon.

~~~
tluyben2
For me Barcelona easily wins of Melbourne; no idea what the criteria of most
livable city is; streets littered with homeless, completely _dead_ nightlife
during the week and only average during the weekend (and I am 44, so I am not
looking for much but even that is not there) and expensive. Barcelona or
Lisbon are a lot nicer imho.

------
tixocloud
Edinburgh could be a good option. If you look hard enough, it is still
relatively affordable (especially compared to the Bay Area) and I’ve found
very intellectual people to work with. There seems to be a big focus in the
U.K. on collaboration between academic and industry and if you’re into data,
Edinburgh is home to a The Data Lab, an innovation centre around data.

I moved here from North America and have previous work experience in Silicon
Valley. The startup vibe is slowly getting stronger and we’ve been very
fortunate to get linked into the ecosystem.

~~~
lifebeyondfife
+1 to Edinburgh, from a biased local.

Most (but far from all) startups in Edinburgh are based in the Codebase
building: [https://www.thisiscodebase.com/](https://www.thisiscodebase.com/).
We also have a couple of unicorns that were started here, Skyscanner and
FanDuel; Amazon and Smartsheet also have offices; and Rockstar North is where
GTA is developed.

All of the above companies are within 10-20 minutes walk of the Edinburgh
Waverley train station. Public transport is awesome mainly because the city is
quite small and buses are frequent and cheap.

There are plenty of meetups too - see
[https://techmeetup.co.uk/](https://techmeetup.co.uk/) for the biggest general
one, which is also live streamed. There are others on security, JavaScript,
Go, Machine Learning etc.

If you like hiking/camping/hill walking then Scotland is a great country for
you - you have a view of the Pentland hills from the city, and Arthur's Seat
in Holyrood park right next to our parliament buildings. You can be in the
Cairngorms national park within a few hours by car/train.

Upper end for Senior Engineer take home pay after taxes is around £4,000 pm.
You could rent a nice apartment for £1,000 pm, but could get something small
and habitable for £600.

Edinburgh is Scotland's most international city, which is a double edged sword
as the tackiness of the tourist shops up and down the Royal Mile showcase. But
there's lots of great things to do and see, and varied places to eat and
drink. The University of Edinburgh is one of the UK's best (I recently walked
past Prof Peter Higgs :) and students come here from all over. The Edinburgh
Festival is (one of?) the biggest arts festivals in the world and runs for the
whole month of August. The Fringe Festival is a world famous testing ground
for stand up comics - there's a great Netflix special from Hannibal Buress
about his experience of the Edinburgh Fringe.

Big downside to the city is that it doesn't have a tech sector as well
developed as, say, London. Also for as stunning and booming as the city is,
the weather is pretty bad especially owing to its unpredictability i.e. four
seasons in one day. It's drier than most of Scotland but that's not saying
much. It's cold and the winters have short days. The flip side is that a sunny
summer's day will be one of the most enjoyable of anywhere in the world.

EDIT: and yeah, I echo other warnings about waiting until the Brexit debacle
has concluded to see what things are like for the UK

~~~
panorama
Before I entered this thread, I was already thinking about spending a couple
months from late Jan to late March in Edinburgh. Could you expand on the
weather and the Brexit warning you mentioned? Thanks!

~~~
lifebeyondfife
No problem.

The unpredicatable nature of weather in Scotland means that if it looks bright
and sunny in the morning, you still need to leave your house with a jacket
because you cannot guarantee that it won't rain heavily later in the day.
Depending on when you take lunch or arrive at work, some people will be
drenched, some will enjoy clear skies and sunshine. This isn't necessarily
like this every day, but prepare for variability.

The dry air in the winter can make dry your skin, so moisturise well. It can
also get windy.

That said, it's fairly temperate. The weather usually goes as low as minus
single digit celsius, and as high as sub-30 celsius. And compared to other
locations in Scotland it rains a lot less.

[https://www.climatedata.eu/climate.php?loc=ukxx0052&lang=en](https://www.climatedata.eu/climate.php?loc=ukxx0052&lang=en)

With regard to Brexit, it's hard to know where to begin so I'll recap and
potentially editorialise.

The Conservative party (popular right wing political party), which is
currently ruling as a minority government, has historically been split on the
subject of integration with Europe. One side likes banks, free trade, free
movement and big business and doesn't mind a bit of bureaucracy (pro Europe);
the other likes deregulation, sovereignty, controlled immigration, "brass
plaques", and small/medium business (anti Europe). This argument led to a
polarising vote to the populace about whether we should leave the European
Union or not.

Joining the European Union, which the UK did in the 1970s, was initially about
centralising trade agreements. Now though it has a common currency (though the
UK retains its own independent currency), legislates and regulates on many
varied aspects of life and business, and takes huge membership fees and pays
out lots of grants. Some see this as a good system even if reform is needed,
some absolutely hate this with a passion.

The public vote polarised the country greatly and ended 52%/48% in favour of
leaving the EU. Even if the result was conclusive the fact it's within a
rounding error, the winning side committed electoral fraud and made lots of
promises which they instantly backed down from, and there's evidence of
Russian intereference, so there's a lot of bad feeling from both sides as many
can't accept the result as final.

The key take away is that the UK has had 2 years to negotiate leaving but
being in the EU affects so many aspects of life, that almost nothing has been
decided and there remain so many grey areas. The worry now is that no deal
will be reached and leaving the EU without a deal creates massive legal
uncertainty in almost every industry conceivable, and means all trade between
UK and the rest of the world (currently done via EU trade agreements) will
instantly get WTO tariffs - in effect putting instantaneous costly barriers to
all goods and services.

At present we're hoping politicians will become sensible and sort something
out that doesn't plunge the country into financial ruin, but it's the
uncertainty that's the problem at the moment.

Add to this, many in Scotland wish to be independent (another similarly
polarising issue) and feel their wishes regarding Brexit are being ignored by
the UK government (Scotland in comparison to the rest of the UK wanted to
decisively remain in the European Union 62%/38%).

So in conclusion: (a) there's a lot of uncertainty about the UK leaving the
European Union in spring next year and what this will do to the smooth running
of the country (b) if the UK does leave in a crash and burn style, that may
lead to renewed calls for Scotland to become independent and who knows what
that will look like. Caveat emptor.

(and for full transparency of my personal bias: I'm pro European, anti
Conservative party, pro Scottish independence, and was on the 100,000+ march
for a 2nd independence referendum at the weekend)

~~~
panorama
Thanks for the very thorough reply. I hadn't realized the exit would occur
next Spring, which is around the time I plan to visit. I understand this can
be tumultuous for residents, do you think it will also affect tourists?

~~~
lifebeyondfife
The date of Brexit at present is 29th March. One worst case scenario is that
all aeroplanes entering/leaving the country are grounded. I think it's
unlikely but it has been discussed in the press
[https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/mar/09/brexit-
airl...](https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/mar/09/brexit-airlines-
worst-fear-preoccupation-legal-framework)

You'll probably be fine as a tourist but as I said, it's the uncertainty
that's the problem. If it were me, I'd leave a week or two before 29th March.

------
victorpascu
Cluj-Napoca, Romania.

Per month: Rent is 500-600 EUR max (worst case unless you're actively looking
to splurge), with the average going around 250-300 or so.

You can cover food and taxes at a basic level on another 300. Of course, YMMV
if you only order restaurant food and such, but if you stop by a supermarket
every now and then you're set to go as low as 600 EUR/mth to live comfortably.
I got by on 400 when I really had to in the past.

It's full of tech companies (most involved in outsourcing for Germany, the UK
and the US) that pay decently for the appropriate experience - at least when
you compare how much you'll have left at the end of the month vs UK and
Germany for example.

There are several major universities around, foreigners are a common enough
sight and virtually everybody (that you're likely to run into) born in the 90s
or later speaks English on at least a basic level.

There are plenty of events on a general level, though if you're looking to
find communities focused on very specific niches, you will likely have a
harder time than in SF, mostly due to the smaller population size.

You can likely afford to not have a commute at all if you go in the 500+ range
for rent.

I've been living in it ever since I started college in it many years ago, and
weighing the pros and cons, I find it can really go toe to toe with a lot more
famous cities in terms of the kind of lifestyle you can afford and the
problems you put up with in exchange.

Not sure if US citizens require a visa or not.

LE: Based on points made in other posts - it's rated as one of the safest
cities in Eastern Europe and has very affordable private health care. Getting
a tooth fixed, for example, is around 40 EUR. A doctor's appointment is
usually in the 25-40 EUR range for most specializations. Public healthcare,
unfortunately, is worth avoiding if it can be helped.

Water has decent quality - you can drink the tap water - but a filter is not a
bad investment. Air quality is rated quite high relative to most other cities
in the EU as well.

Great net speed.

~~~
Arkight
I heard that Romania have great internet speed, especially comparing to fellow
nations in Eastern Europe. However..... what about its stability?

BTW what about food? I am picking a location for doing remote job next few
year in Europe, now it seems that Romania should be part of my short list.

Like, I really love to eat, so it would be nice to know whether Cluj-Napoca
have a diverse catering service.

~~~
cibcib2
I'm Romanian so I might be biased.

I think Romania is awesome in terms of food. There are plenty of options (in
the big cities, Cluj being one) in restaurants as well as in supermarkets. I
always urge for Romanian food after traveling abroad. Home cooking is still
big in Romania and you'll find a lot of restaurants offering "home cooked"
like dishes.

In terms of stability I wouldn't worry, at least not for the next 3-5 years.
Romania is a member of EU and NATO and I know it gets a lot of bad press
(which is deserved and actually there is a lot of political turbulence lately)
but for a foreigner I think it doesn't really matter (Poland and Hungary are
still great regardless of the current political struggles).

A 1Gbps (1000Mbps) internet connection is ~9Euros/month

Downside: Bureaucracy, lack of highways, public healthcare system (there is a
private one though wich is decent), very slow trains

------
maxdo
Kiev , Lviv , Kharkiv in Ukraine are extremely cheap, it’s still in Europe,
and it has tons of talents. It’s a known talent pool actually. Eating out
starts from $2 usd, for $3-4 you could even have a service in the restaurant.
Renting a flat starts from $200/mo for some sub urbs areas. You can rent some
office space for $150/mo I bet in most places you called cheap you spent more
on coffee and smoothies.

~~~
loriverkutya
And just be prepared to be invaded by Russia on a cloudy afternoon.

~~~
kozak
I think of the cities listed above this only applies to Kharkiv. And even
Kharkiv is much safer now than it was three years ago.

------
mahrain
Eindhoven, The Netherlands. Kind of like the silicon valley of Holland still
with major tech companies around (Philips, NXP Semiconductor, ASML, Tomtom,
Here) and a growing startup culture. Eindhoven University of Technology is a
major force in e.g. Solar and rent for a centrally located appartment will be
around 1000 Euro. Train connections to Amsterdam and Germany (Düsseldorf) and
a local airport with cheap connections throughout Europe.

~~~
foxreymann
+1 for Eindhoven. Very cheap beautiful (quite small) houses. Very nice people.
Lots of tech. Great transport, both trains and airport.

------
tzhenghao
I’d recommend Ann Arbor if you don’t mind the midwestern winters. [0] UMich is
there, and you’ll find people in academia working on very interesting
problems. Very friendly locals too.

[0] [https://www.thrillist.com/news/nation/most-educated-
cities-i...](https://www.thrillist.com/news/nation/most-educated-cities-in-
the-us-wallethub)

~~~
qudat
I'm a software engineer living in A2 and also recommend moving here. It has a
small town feel but has most amenities anyone would need. Comcast provides
gigabit internet for $120/mo in some areas of town. There's a great downtown
scene with a ton of university students to stimulate intellectual curiosity.

There is a growing tech scene here with companies like Duo (sold for 2bn to
cisco), barracuda networks, and a thriving startup scene (farmlogs, trove,
spark incubator, etc.).

We have excellent meetups -- at least for javascript (regularly 100 people
attend them).

The food here is pretty great considering the size of A2.

The cost of living, however, is quite a bit more expensive than most places in
the midwest. Getting an apartment downtown is going to run you close to
$1.5-2k.5/mo. There is definitely affordable living here, but you'll have to
look further outside the 2mi radius of downtown A2. Purchasing a house in A2
is extremely difficult and fairly expensive.

Also, we are 45 mins away from Detroit, which is making a huge comeback. It
has a ton of cultural diversity and some excellent food, things to do.

~~~
bpicolo
I see fairly reasonably sized houses in the 200k - 400k range in Ann Arbor.
That seems totally fine. What's your experience purchasing?

------
davidscolgan
I've recently moved to Chicago and am thoroughly loving it. There are tons of
programming meetups here, seems pretty progressive, super good public
transportation (at least for the US) and costs seem to be mostly reasonable.

My studio apartment is about $1k a month in a nice part of town right next to
a train stop. I really like that since Chicago is the third largest city in
the country, you can probably find just about anything here'd you want,
without having to pay as much to live here as you would on the coasts.

~~~
reustle
Curious to hear your thoughts after winter

~~~
davidscolgan
Ha! I spent about a year in Chicago a few years back and got the full winter
experience. I actually like the cold and snow, so I wasn't bothered too much.
I was the digital nomad who went to Lithuania in November and December and
somehow it didn't occur to me that I was setting myself up for endless
twilight (and ended up really enjoying it anyway).

That's definitely something to consider though if you need the sun. I found
that having access to the train makes it way easier to get around in the snow
compared to having to drive everywhere, but YMMV for sure.

------
nicklovescode
It depends what you mean by cheap but you can live in Somerville next to
Cambridge MA for a fraction of SF rent and be in perhaps the best intellectual
environment in the world.

[https://boston.craigslist.org/search/aap?bedrooms=1&maxAsk=1...](https://boston.craigslist.org/search/aap?bedrooms=1&maxAsk=1200&minAsk=400&query=somerville%20ma&srchType=A)

Looks like it’s pretty easy to find a sub-$1000/mo bedroom

~~~
inciampati
Sub 1k/mo bedroom...! Times do change, and fast. I lived there for seven
years. I travel very extensively throughout the world for (research) work and
Somerville offers by far the best social environment for hacker and
intellectual types that I've ever found. I would be happy to return.

If the OP is into anarchism, art, and culture I would recommend Napoli. An
apartment in the best location imaginable would never be more than €700.
Airport is a few minutes from the city center. The food, from restaurant to
Farmers markets, is unbelievably good and costs little. The intellectual life,
well...

~~~
mk89
The OP asked for a place where he/she can speak English as well, and
unfortunately this is not really the case.

~~~
eggie
Actually, you can get by pretty well in Napoli on english. Initially it was a
struggle for me (native english speaker) to avoid using it all the time and
learn the local languages.

It's true that it's not Berlin, but on the other hand it's not any harder to
get around in english in southern italy than in portugal (the suggestion in
the current top post in this thread).

------
anonlilcoward
Bangalore,India:

Rent price : 200$/month for a 1000sqft apartment. Bangalore is often called
the silicon valley of India, filled with software professionals.

Majority of the city's inhabitants are migrants from other parts of the
country and almost everyone communicates in English.

The living expenses for a couple is not more than 600-700$/month including
rent for a decent lifestyle.

The city has a good pub culture and mostly urban population. The weather
almost throughout the year is pleasant 25-30 degree C and light rains for
around 4-5 months.

Ample available Shared co-working spaces filled with emerging software
startups.

Although I would also like to point out some cons:

As an American, you might find the chaos of an Indian city overwhelming for
some time. There are people literally everywhere and all common use
services(taxi service, public transportation, laundry services, cafes,
restaurants) are usually exhausted to the brim.

Traffic: Imagine NewYork in peak hours.

~~~
quanto
How does a non-Indian English speaker go about hunting for an apartment lease
in Bangalore? Especially short-term leases. This is the biggest bottleneck for
me.

~~~
sandGorgon
everyone speaks English in India (mostly).

Also the online ecosystem is very highly developed in India. Look at
[http://nobroker.com](http://nobroker.com), housing.com, 99acres.com , etc etc

------
dtkav
I just moved to Hobart, Australia from SF. It's quite affordable. I pay A$400
/mo rent in a share house, and walk 20 mins to a downtown co-working space
every day (also A$400 /mo). Lifestyle is pretty incredible. It's small, but
still a state capital city, so there's plenty going on. Hobart is also the
home port for the Australian and French Antarctic programs, so a lot of smart
folks come through. Plus it was a trial zone for the National Broadband
Network, so everyone has cheap fiber to the home.

edit: also the exchange rate is favorable, so if you have savings in USD they
will go a long way.

~~~
mdeg
I'm in Melbourne right now but I'd love to move over the strait to Hobart. Do
you have a remote job? The only thing stopping me is not being able to find
work there - of the many things Hobart has, a thriving high tech industry is
not one of them.

~~~
jen729w
Melbourne here too _wave_ \-- greatest city on Earth, IMHO (I'm not from
here), but we were in Adelaide just last week and it's getting interesting
there. I assume rent is cheaper than Melbourne due to lower demand.

------
maxkwallace
I am doing this in Taipei right now.

The living costs are low and there is a thriving intellectual community, but
there is definitely a language barrier. Most Taiwanese can speak enough
English to be friendly and helpful (which they are), but not enough to have
intellectual conversations. If you are willing to tolerate the language
barrier and put in the time to find the people who can converse intellectually
in English then it's a good option. I can't say how much of an intellectual
English-speaking community there is since I haven't explored that.

Otherwise, I can't say enough good things about Taipei as a city. You can find
a nice apartment downtown for $600/mo or less, the public transportation is
amazingly good, and I've never traveled anywhere with better food for the
money, provided you're willing to eat Taiwanese, Chinese, or Japanese food
most days.

~~~
askmike
What about Singapore, Hong Kong or Kuala Lumpur? The first two are definitely
more expensive (KL maybe even being cheaper) but in SG and KL English is the
primary language and in HK you'll be fine with it as well.

~~~
maxkwallace
Singapore and Hong Kong are options but they're not inexpensive.

Haven't been to KL personally, but from what I understand it's relatively
polluted and doesn't have the same quality of life as the other three.

~~~
askmike
I'm in KL right now and I am actually very surprised by the high quality of
living here. You're right it's not on par with SG or HK but closer to those
than any other big city in SEA (Bangkok, HCMC, Jakarta, Manila, etc) - while
still being quite cheap.

(That said most people I speak to don't share my opinion here)

~~~
maxkwallace
Well in that case, it's awesome that you're enjoying things in KL! Glad to
hear another opinion.

~~~
askmike
Thanks, you too :)

To make my store complete (for anyone thinking about coming to KL), here are
some precise reasons why I think KL is nice:

\- Literally everyone speaks English, basically fluent.

\- Great public transport.

\- Road traffic is light outside rush hours.

\- Huge middle class, I don't see any poverty here really (compared to the
rest of SEA). A ton of nice condos, very very reasonably priced.

\- Mix of cultures (lots of Chinese Malay and Indian Malay) -> amazing food

\- Almost no crime (this is the same in all of SEA)

------
CamTin
It's not sexy, but college towns in the midwest can usually be pretty
affordable as long as you're not trying to live exactly next to campus:
Madison, Ann Arbor, East Lansing, South Bend, Ames, etc. If you hear people
talk about how cool Austin used to be 20 years ago, they're basically talking
about what these towns are still like.

~~~
jppope
Agree Big time... good luck convincing the HN crew though ;)

------
chrismeller
In order to give any kind of really meaningful feedback I'd have to ask a
couple of other questions:

1) Define "cheap". You're in the Bay Area, which is by every definition the
opposite of "cheap", but substituting that with something like Seattle or
Austin or Brooklyn doesn't sound like it's accomplishing what you're looking
for to me, even though it's absolutely cheaper. You said you want to focus on
your own intellectual pursuits, so are you planning to quit your job and just
try to pick up freelance gigs here and there to pay bills or live off your
savings or what?

2) Related to #1... if you plan on quitting your job and just freelancing it
or living off your savings, you're going to run into visa issues if you move
abroad. If you're planning on finding a job somewhere else that heavily
impacts the situation - it needs to be a tech center that offers other options
that will sponsor you. What's the intention here?

3) What non-work features/perks/requirements/options are you concerned about?
Middle of nowhere Kansas is one of the cheapest places you could possibly find
in the US, but it's absolutely not for everyone and won't work out if you like
having new restaurants opening every week, going to museums, and the other
little things a big city provides to add variety to life.

4) Living in the Bay Area means you're used to cool and rainy but still mild
weather year-round. Do you think you could deal with snow and wind with
temperatures well into the negative? If not winters in Northern Europe (and,
realistically, a lot of the rest of Europe) are going to be a problem. Not a
fan of humid and stagnant with no air conditioning? That's going to mean the
Caribbean, Central/South America, and parts of the Pacific aren't going to be
an option - it's not standard there because of the power requirements. If you
end up somewhere with a drastically different climate that can completely
destroy your motivation and mood, which could be a deal breaker.

~~~
masonic

      Living in the Bay Area means you're used to cool and rainy
    

_Rainy_? Rain averages 13-14 inches a year in San Jose.

~~~
chrismeller
I'm not saying it's Seattle or Portland... should I have said "misty" or "gray
and miserable"? The specific amount of sky water wasn't really the point of
the question.

~~~
oblio
The Bay Area is far from "misty" or "gray and miserable". Go live in some
places that are truly like that, and then compare. Examples: Scotland,
Luxembourg, etc.

------
fipple
The answer here is places that are COLD. For any type of city, the one in a
colder place is cheaper. Minneapolis might be a good choice, or Chicago if you
want a bigger atmosphere. You’ll have to put in elbow grease to create an
intellectual milieu but it is there.

~~~
smueller1234
That cold-cheap bit is decidedly not applicable to Europe, by the way.
Scandinavia is overall among the most expensive places in Europe. I'd imagine
Switzerland is more expensive by a bit, but Oslo and Stockholm are brutal as
well.

~~~
fastbeef
The cost of housing / income ratio in Stockholm is so out of whack that it’s
basically impossible to enter the housing market without at least €50k-75k in
savings to have as a down payment for an apartment anywhere nice.

~~~
dvlsg
Thats disappointing. After visiting, I found I really enjoyed both Sweden and
Norway, and wouldn't mind moving there someday. Sounds like that may be
difficult.

~~~
mclightning
Who wants to live in Stockholm anyway? Malmö is much better connected to
Europe. You can basically drive to Germany, You can fly anywhere from
Copenhagen which is 20 minutes train ride away from Malmö. Copenhagen airport
has a lot more flights than Stockholm.

That said, you get advantage of being right next to Copenhagen. It is a big
market of jobs there. Salaries are high because it is a big, crowded city with
high living expenses. So you could live in Malmö for cheap and commute to
Copenhagen for work.

All that said, as a 26 year old, I managed to take a gap year in Malmö now,
after working/saving for 4 years, while managing to keep paying my mortgage,
owning a car etc.

~~~
ptr
The job market for tech in Stockholm is larger than Copenhagen + Malmö
combined.

~~~
jpkeisala
Is it really? I imaged Copenhagen being capital of tech and pharma in Nordics.
Am I wrong?

------
nsomaru
Johannesburg and Cape Town, South Africa. Both of these cities have loads of
expats and intellectually stimulating environments.

Big and spacious apartments for $1000/mo or less. Fibre @ 40mbps for $100/mo
or thereabouts. A country that has both tropical and Mediterranean climates
(think of the fruit and veggies!) with beautiful nature (esp. CT where it's
integrated with the city).

Eat out every night in style at prices cheaper than a European corner cafe. In
my experience EU food is overrated and expensive. Have been to America many
years ago an all I can remember is that people and portions are big!

Yes, there's crime. Happy to answer any questions.

~~~
whitef0x
How bad is the crime? I've talked to a few who've lived there but they always
tell me the crime forced them to move out. Do hijackings at robots still
happen often?

~~~
nsomaru
The fact that you call a traffic light a "robot" makes me suspect you're a
South African or your parents are :)

I have never been hijacked, robot or otherwise. The worst that happened to me
was getting mugged in a dark alley around 7pm in Cape Town. Rely shouldn't
have been walking around that neighbourhood well-dressed.

In general I leave my laptop in the trunk and ladies leave their bags there
too. The most common form of traffic light theft is "smash and grab" which is
entirely mitigated by getting the right kind of windows and not leaving your
stuff on the seat/where it's visible.

In ZA 80% of the crime is committed against poor people, which really sucks
but which realistically means that only 20% of the crime stats actually would
apply to the affluent/expats. Ultimately you need to be a little more vigilant
and aware, but not much more than you would be in any major city.

~~~
bogomipz
>"The most common form of traffic light theft is "smash and grab" which is
entirely mitigated by getting the right kind of windows and not leaving your
stuff on the seat/where it's visible."

That's quite a statement that the experience of waiting at a stoplight would
be improved by investing in special windows for your car. Does this to all of
ZA or just Cape Town?

~~~
nsomaru
Its quite common for almost all new cars to come with driver and main
passenger side windows with the “smash and grab” tint.

I would recommend this to anyone driving in South Africa. I’ve never been
smash and grabbed because I generally pay attention to anyone approaching my
car and try to make eye contact. Usually people are zoning out on their phone
or whatever and make easy targets.

------
baxtr
If you really consider moving abroad, then Berlin might be a good option. It
has a decent American expat community, it's relatively “cheap” and culturally
rich.

~~~
nabaraj
I was talking to someone about tech culture in Germany earlier. How easy is it
to get a tech job out there?

~~~
bobthepanda
Not local, but I try and keep up from time to time, and I have seen a lot of
hand-wringing on the Internet about how low Berlin tech wages are.

~~~
bnferguson
Depends where you're comparing them to in the US but in general most European
tech wages are lower than the US. If comparing to SF perhaps even shockingly
lower.

It can be hard to swallow at first, but when you account for lower rent, much
cheaper health insurance, and far more vacation days (~20-24 by law - and no
one actually expects you to be available) along with safer cities with
generally higher quality of life, in my opinion it ends up being a very, very
good trade off.

I moved to Amsterdam some years back (and have worked for a Berlin based
company) and don't know if I could ever move back to the states.

~~~
hectormalot
+1 for Amsterdam (the Hague, Rotterdam and Utrecht). Rent is getting more
expensive, but quality of life is very good, healthcare is 60€/month, top
universities at 2000€/yr and overall good job prospects

~~~
smueller1234
I'd like to add that I've found the Netherlands to be among the most welcoming
countries to expats that I've spent meaningful amounts of time in. I've moved
away, but I'll always feel like home there.

Also, at least in the cities, everyone will be fluent in English.

If you pick city other than Amsterdam, or are willing to have a 45 min+
commute, rents should still be reasonable.

------
kendallpark
If you can weather the weather, Madison or St. Louis. Rent is cheap in both
places (< $1000/mo is easy to find).

Madison benefits from having University of Wisconsin campus. It is also the
capital of Wisconsin. While being around the same size as a flagship state
school "college-town," it retains its own identity and culture (you never feel
like the city revolves around the university). I've heard many people compare
Madison to Austin, TX. UW-Madison has one of the oldest computer science
departments in the US--high ranking department. Extremely bike friendly town.
Winters are LONG; I suspect the cold keeps the city population a manageable
size.

St. Louis is a mid-sized city. It has all the cultural amenities you'd expect
from a big city (airport, food, arts, parks, etc), without the traffic or
sprawl, and at a fraction of the cost. Wash U is the top academic center in
the area. It's not a great city to visit as a tourist, but it's a fantastic
city to _live_ in, especially for the frugal-minded. Summers are hot and
humid.

------
DoreenMichele
I don't really know what you mean by _thriving intellectual community._ I
think this will depend a lot on your exact interests and what you want out of
a local intellectual community on the ground.

Manhattan, KS has a big university in a small town. When I lived there, it had
intellectual things like used bookstores and an incredible local zoo, stuff
you don't typically see in small towns. But it is also an Ag college. Probably
not really what a techie from the Bay Area is seeking, though I loved it to
pieces when I was there (other than the ragweed, so you couldn't make me go
back at gunpoint).

When I applied for an internship with a National Lab in Washington State
hoping to get back to the Tri-cities, I interviewed for a position in a
satellite office in Sequim. They do marine biology type stuff there because of
the unique marine ecology right there.

Port Aransas, TX also has marine research stuff due to unique marine ecology.
It's a town of under 4000 population year-round, but snow birds and tourism
swell the population to up to 60k at times, so it actually has a grocery
store, something you don't normally see in such a small town.

I considered moving to Idaho Falls, ID in part because it has a National Lab,
so it likely has a serious intellectual environment even though it's just 60k
people and very affordable.

So, you might want to flesh out some details concerning what exactly you are
hoping to find. Because I'm guessing you don't really want to move someplace
like Port Aransas, though I'm cool with tiny little places with an enclave of
uber-geeks.

------
lixtra
I lived a year in Vilnius and after the usual struggle to get connected found
the startup community there quite thriving. Still, most of my friends where
expats.

You can live comfortably on 1300 EUR/month. (Average salary is 1000 EUR, but
probably a bit higher in Vilnius). To evaluate visit first in winter because
it’s the worst time.

~~~
pscanf
I've been living in Vilnius (and surroundings) for the past two years, and I
would definitely recommend it. The city is very cozy, well kept, and
relatively cheap (small flats in the center run for around 500€/month).

~~~
hnzix
What's the electronic music scene like?

~~~
pscanf
No idea, sorry. :)

------
fijal
So the good news is that after SV/SF, everything is cheap! Well, mostly....

I would personally suggest Cape Town, South Africa, if you're a bit
adventurous. Lovely weather, good people, cheap, excellent food. It's a bit
out of the way (10h flying to Europe, more to US), but same timezone as
Europe. English is the main language. Moved here 8 years ago and no regrets

~~~
batbomb
I’ve been to Cape Town and I really enjoyed it. It’s got some shorty aspects,
but it’s not a huge shock if you are coming from SF. Stellenbosch was also
nice. Weather was unbeatable. Food was amazing.

------
ams6110
If you're looking to get totally away from the big urban experience, look at
any midwest USA town where a state university is the primary anchor. Politics
will be liberal, if that's what you're lookging for. Cost of living generally
low. Many more cultural and intellectual activities than other towns of
similar size. Public schools will be good.

~~~
ranchdubois
Sounds like you just said Columbus OH

------
tmlee
Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia is an option to consider. Strategically located in
growing Southeast Asia and well connected.

Most folks in the city speaks English in the city, so you wont have issues
getting around.

There is a growing tech community here as well with a some notable
startups/companies.

Cost of living wise, magnitude lower than neighboring Singapore, as such a
good consideration

~~~
mdeg
KL is also polluted and very dirty. I couldn't recommend it to someone used to
clean air and clean streets.

~~~
itake
also the internet in MY is very slow an unreliable.

edit: fix abbr

~~~
ernsheong
Really, I live here and we have speeds up to 30Mbps/100Mbps/1Gbps. 3/4G is
quite reliable too.

------
cosmolev
Akademgorodok is a part of the Sovetsky District of the city of Novosibirsk,
Russia, located 30 km south of the city center. It is the educational and
scientific centre of Siberia.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akademgorodok](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akademgorodok)

~~~
iaml
I would highly suggest _against_ moving to Russia, even if you are looking for
cheap places.

~~~
cosmolev
why?

~~~
iaml
Because most russian devs I know want to leave and the only reason they
haven't yet is because they don't have the opportunity.

------
graeham
Expensive by UK standards, but cheap vs Bay Area: Cambridge UK.

I've not been anywhere else that has the density of interesting people doing
interesting stuff. London is not far if you need to break the bubble (and
Stansted Airport even closer).

Downsides: salaries are generally lower than SV (esp for technical work),
Brexit uncertainty, weather is fairly average, limited outdoor sport options
(other than running, road cycling, rowing)

~~~
scrollaway
Cambridge is crazy cool and one of my favourite cities but it's expensive by
many standards, not just UK ones. "vs Bay Area" nearly everything in the world
is cheap.

For those looking to spend though: Cambridge has a cool tech/startup scene,
almost everyone bikes and there's no cars in the city center. It's a fairly
small city, very green, both quiet and lively.

~~~
glx1126
There are cars in the city center and there are traffic jams most working
days. Maybe one of the reasons so many people cycle there.

------
quantummkv
Have you considered Pune in India? The area has an excellent tech scene with
both established companies and startups. It has excellent universities and the
area has a lot of students and institutions. Everyone knows English in here.
The area itself is has lots of beautiful places around for trekking and
exploring if you are into that sort of thing, especially in the monsoon
season.

And it's cheap. Really cheap. For 200$ you can get an excellent apartment in
prime locations in the city itself. You daily food expenses won't be anymore
than 10$ at the most.

~~~
iopuy
Do I have anything to worry about in Pune as a female engineer? I read about
Pune on the net and it sounds nice, just want to make sure the community (tech
and other) are as accepting as SFO. Thanks for the suggestion. Cheers!

~~~
blocked_again
India is not safe country for women in general. I don't know about Pune but it
should be a similar situation. You can hardly see any women traveling alone at
night in most Indian cities. Our law enforcement are just terrible compared to
west. Crimes are high. There is nothing like 911 that will take care of you in
a matter of minutes if something bad happens. Take most advices on India with
a pinch of salt and please don't relocate here untill and unless you have
experienced India first hand by yourselves. Most places are overpopulated and
over polluted. People dont follow traffic rules and everything about India is
completely opposite that of the west. A western colleague of mine got hit by
car almost twice in the firsy day we went out. You can hardly find any
foreigners in Indian cities unless its a tourist hotspot. In most cases there
is nothing for you to justify moving to India. Look at the H1B visas from
India and number of Indian students doing masters in foreign countries. Almost
anyone who can relocate from India would do that in an instant if they have
the resources.

You should take a look into this blog post
[https://medium.com/@oliviagoldstein/a-year-in-india-told-
by-...](https://medium.com/@oliviagoldstein/a-year-in-india-told-by-a-girl-
from-buffalo-584efe01f3e8)

------
pieterhg
Hi, I made a site to do just this called
[https://nomadlist.com](https://nomadlist.com). Click OPEN FILTERS and click
cheap living cost (<$2,000). I also have filters to find cities with
universities and English speaking people.

I have collected 1,000+ of the biggest cities and am adding another 1,500 now.
Let me know what you think!

\- Pieter

~~~
kpennell
It was amazing how totally off the data was for Mexico, relative to nearly
every DN I've ever met in Mexico (100+?). I just couldn't believe how far it
was from my (and people I know's) experience. I guess crowd-sourced data is
tricky! Once I knew Mexico was so far off, it made me trust Germany's and most
other places' data a lot less.

~~~
pieterhg
The data is cross referenced with other cost of living and quality of life
sites and rankings and is about 85% similar, either higher or lower but not
much.

Lifestyles vary so your own experience can be subjective.

What data points specifically did you disagree with? I’m happy to confirm the
data points and show sources.

------
wprapido
Osijek, Croatia. University city. Thriving tech hub. Close to 4 major
international airports (Budapest, Zagreb, Belgrade, Timisoara). Low rents. Low
cost of living. Decent food. Very walkable. English is widely spoken.

There are many other cities all over Central and Eastern Europe like this.
Other options are Novi Sad in Serbia, Szeged in Hungary, Brno in Czech
Republic (the major tech hub), Timisoara in Romania (same), Lviv in Ukraine,
Krakow in Poland, Tartu in Estonia.

~~~
fauigerzigerk
Osijek seems a bit small for a tech hub with a population of just over 100,000

~~~
wprapido
The university is a gamechanger. Osijek also doesn't feel provincial at all.
Mind you, I'm a big city kid, still I love it here.

[http://softwarecity.hr/clanovi/](http://softwarecity.hr/clanovi/)

~~~
fauigerzigerk
That's good to know, thanks.

------
drjesusphd
Gothenburg, Sweden.

Has a growing tech scene, English is spoken everywhere, a couple of good
universities, surpringly affordable cost of living, winters are fairly mild
(but long). Definitely has a healthy intellectual atmosphere, with lots of
independent study groups/classes. A few hours from Copenhagen, Stockholm, and
Oslo. Probably the most "livable" city I can imagine.

Finding rental housing is a real pain, but not because of cost.

Also worth looking at: Ghent, Utrecht, Thessaloniki.

------
virtualwhys
Not sure about the thriving intellectual community, but Chiang Mai certainly
has a sizable digital nomad population, and is absolutely dirt cheap.

I rented a beautiful studio with a view of the Doi Suthep (mountain bordering
the city) for $100 USD/month last winter. Since Buddhism reigns there are
loads of monks, which means vegetarian fare is easy to come by, and is
similarly cheap (anywhere from $1 to $5 for a meal). Everyone eats out, it's
really hard not to meet people.

Internet is very fast (up to 500mb/sec) and power is stable (no power cuts in
3 months).

Of course the timezone difference is substantial if your employer is USA
based, but if you can make that work Chiang Mai is hard to beat.

~~~
ubercow13
What type of visa do all these digital nomads have?

~~~
virtualwhys
60-day visa + one 30 day renewal within Thailand; after that, a border run (to
Vietnam, Laos, etc.) to get another 60-day.

Rinse, repeat.

You can get a business visa or a social visa (volunteer work) to avoid the
hassle of border runs, but most just go with a tourist visa and periodically
leave/take a break from Thailand.

------
zekevermillion
Pittsburgh seems to have inexplicably affordable housing -- a lot of it classy
old steel-era buildings. And also CMU is there, so the intellectual resources
stack up well against any other city.

If you're looking for more of an adventure I would highly recommend Tbilisi,
Georgia (ie, the country not the US State). Relatively affordable, great food,
culture encourages intellectual pursuits, beautiful country.

------
techcode
I can wholeheartedly recommend Amsterdam (or surrounding places).

Everyone speaks English, pay is good, and work-life balance makes a lot of
difference.

Commutes are generally short, you get ~26 paid holidays per year (sick leave
is separate from that)...

~~~
MrQuincle
A lot of cities in the Netherlands are easy to reach by public transport. Car
is also fine.

Pay is of course lower than in the Bay area.

Culture wise it's sometimes hard to make friends with the Dutch. It depends on
how you spend your spare time. Playing a sport, going to parties, going to
group lessons in a gym, etc. is essential to make Dutch friends later in life.

~~~
HelloNurse
> A lot of cities in the Netherlands are easy to reach by public transport.
> Easy to reach and very close to each other.

In particular, the Schiphol airport also has a major train station; it's very
close to Amsterdam and Haarlem, but suitable for most of western Netherlands.

------
galfarragem
Definitely East Europe or if you want to go mainstream: Berlin.

You can also live cheaply in South Europe but the intellectual atmosphere is
not the same. This area is good for summer hollydays.

The only problem, in both areas, might be the language. English is enough to
survive but maybe not enough to thrive.

~~~
jacek
I moved from USA to Berlin this year. Amazing city, but prices (rent+life) are
growing rapidly.

------
dsfyu404ed
I hope I'm not the only person who browsed the comments looking to be sure a
bunch of people in tech don't intend to move to where I intend to retire.

~~~
egypturnash
I’m doing this right now. I’m leaving Seattle for (censored) and I’m really
happy to have not seen a single person here singing praises of its many
virtues and apologizing for its flaws yet.

If I see a comment further down doing that I might downvote it. :)

------
nrjames
Raleigh/Durham/Chapel Hill area of North Carolina. There's a ton of research
happening in Research Triangle Park, 3 major universities within 20 minutes of
each other, and one of the highest concentrations of PhDs per capita of
anywhere in the world. The cost of living is low and you can get some
space/land if you want it.

------
neonscribe
Consider a small or even a larger city containing a large, selective state
university. Madison, WI; Ann Arbor, MI; Iowa City, IA; Bloomington, IN;
Tucson, AZ; Athens, GA; Salt Lake City, UT. There are many others.

------
david927
Nice, France

There's a technical hub in the area and multiple universities, along with a
lot of English-speaking expats. The weather is amazing and the food is
fantastic.

I'm from the SF Bay Area and I live here now. Best decision ever.

~~~
the_clarence
Nice is probably the last place I would go to in France. Bordeaux and
Montpellier are much nicer places.

~~~
namdnay
I guess it depends on what your criteria are. Bordeaux is a lot wetter than
Nice, and the extremes in Montpellier can be quite harsh. There are no
mountains near Bordeaux, and you need to drive a good 30-45mn out of
Montpellier to get anywhere nice.

I completely agree that the night life and cultural scene is far better in
student cities such as Bordeaux, Lyon, Nantes, Montpellier etc

~~~
baby
I lived in Lyon almost all my life and I wouldn't call it a student city. It's
pretty boring.

~~~
namdnay
That's a bit unfair, isn't it? I liked Lyon, the city centre is just the right
size, great restaurants, a nice selection of different bars, from cheap pub to
fancy cocktail bars. It's a lot cheaper, a lot younger, and a lot more vibrant
than anything on the mediterranean

~~~
baby
How long have you stayed there though? And when was it?

I feel like the last 5 years have been good for the city, it has seen a lot of
new restaurants and bars. Also, there are now real chinese restaurants which
blows my mind.

It's still pretty hard to find a bar with people during the week though,
unless you're going to the vieux Lyon but then it's not that big either.

Check Bordeaux, Montpellier, Toulouse, Lille, Strasbourg, Rennes, etc. They
have a way more vibrant life and way more students. Restaurants are not that
great in Lyon either compared to the rest of France I find.

------
sailfast
Charlottesville, VA. UVA, natural beauty, history, reasonable cost of living,
Amtrak into DC.

Columbus, OH. Cheap, Ohio State is right there. Get a huge house on a lake for
$350K. Pursue your intellect all you want.

------
ivanech
I have a software engineer friend who moved to Budapest, and she swears by it.
It's a beautiful city with several universities, and it's incredibly
affordable.

~~~
59nadir
Hungary consistently ranks as having the lowest percentage of English speaking
people in Europe. It's perhaps one of the few countries where this would
actually still be an issue in Europe.

~~~
koolherc
Sadly this is true, even among software engineers and highly qualified people.
You can still get a job without speaking Hungarian, and you'll be able to get
through mandatory work stuff, but it may be uncomfortable during casual
conversations. People often feel uneasy speaking English so they tend to
switch to Hungarian if only one or two English speakers are in the group.

~~~
koolherc
But if you can find a good community, then it may work out really well.
Budapest is really affordable and SE salaries are very high compared to the
average cost of living.

------
kowdermeister
Try Budapest

[https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-
living/compare_cities.jsp?cou...](https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-
living/compare_cities.jsp?country1=United+States&country2=Hungary&city1=Palo+Alto%2C+CA&city2=Budapest)

Lots of stuff here to do and see, there are many expats all over the city.
English speaking is low among Hungarians (¬20%), but in the inner city you
won't have a problem with it.

I'd try a couple of cities for a few weeks then decide, Prague is also very
beautiful, but as others suggested Berlin rocks too.

~~~
loriverkutya
Corruption is sky-high, the government is in a constant “we are waging a war”
mode, currently against the immigrants, and the prime minister is turning the
country into a dictatorship slowly. Burocracy is horrible, nobody speaks
English.

And it effects people pretty badly, most of them are negative and sour. Also,
intellectually it is way behind Western Europe.

Source: I lived in that city for 15 years, family is still living there.

~~~
ssijak
And Hungarian language is the worst ever.

~~~
kowdermeister
Depends on the point of view. For example you can swear for a very long time
and not repeat a word :)

------
whitef0x
From what I've seen, Chile is a relatively safe and intellectually free place
to live. They aren't as progressive on LGBTQIA tolerance as say the west coast
of the US, but they are slowly getting there.

It isn't dirt cheap though. A house in a nice part of Santiago will cost you
around 300-500k (USD).

~~~
collyw
How are developer salaries there? For the quick glance I had one time they
seemed really low.

~~~
ivm
Yes, $2-4k/mo on average in Santiago[1], and even lower in the regions. I'd
suggest going remote because it's one of the few developed countries where you
can get a visa without a local employer. Also, the quality of life is higher
outside the capital.

[1]:
[http://www.lun.com/Pages/NewsDetail.aspx?dt=2018-09-25&NewsI...](http://www.lun.com/Pages/NewsDetail.aspx?dt=2018-09-25&NewsID=410350&BodyID=0&PaginaId=14)

------
TheCapeGreek
Cape Town is a cheaper, toned down SF if you're up for it. Bit of an uncertain
economic and political future for the country though.

------
welder
If you're single, just cut your expenses and stay in the Bay Area. Get rid of
your car, get roommates, stop eating out. It's much easier to cut your
spending than move, and you will definitely be giving up opportunity and
intellectual community no matter where in the world you move compared to SF.

Also, Berlin fits your criteria.

If you just want somewhere cheap try Thailand. Many coworking spaces, but
harder to find a startup community. The language barrier won't be a problem
because of tourism and the polite culture.

~~~
thatfrenchguy
You can’t « cut expenses » if you want to start a life and have kids ;-)

------
goda90
Californians tend to overlook the Midwest(probably because of the winters),
but we have some decent cities. Madison, Minneapolis, and if you want big,
Chicago. All of them have universities and tech companies, and are cheaper
than the bay area by far.

------
FahadUddin92
India (Bangalore) is a great and cheap place to live. You will have to learn
some Hindi to get everyday things done but many people there know English
(almost all people who work at offices). You can start a company there.

------
anonu
Pittsburgh:

\- low cost of living

\- 20+ universities

\- city successfully transformed from industrial to knowledge center

\- young talented workforce - constant influx of young people

\- CMU: top notch research university

\- UPitt: UPMC - top medical school & center

\- Tech companies always looking for a foothold there: Intel, Microsoft, Uber

\- Passionate sports fans: Steelers, Penguins... maybe Pirates

\- Cheap housing: you can buy entire homes for <$50k (maybe needs some capital
improvements)

\- Eclectic mix of restaurants (foreign cuisine), bars and decent nightlife

------
abledon
Montréal — winters prevent you from softening up and remind you about the
great force of nature

~~~
stock_toaster
I know a few people who moved up to Toronto for the animation industry, and
they report loving it. Might be an option too?

------
mark_l_watson
I am living in Urbana/Champaign Illinois for a few years for a job. The
university here is one of the best engineering schools in the world and the
whole area has a lot to do: meetups, entrepreneurship centers, culture, and is
an easy drive to Chicago and St Louis. I will miss this place when my wife and
I return to Sedona Arizona next year.

~~~
welcome_dragon
Plus there's Lil Porgy's

------
StateCollege
That sounds a bit like where I live, in State College, Pennsylvania. It's a
small city in the mountains, home to Penn State University.

* There are about 40k permanent residents, plus 40k students. It grows to as much as 200k on football weekends, and has the infrastructure to handle that (highways, etc).

* My current rent is $625 per month, utilities included, for a 2 bedroom in the country (10 minutes from Wegmans).

* The university library is open 24/7 when school is in session (with reduced hours otherwise). Any resident of Pennsylvania can request a borrower's card, and anyone can use the common spaces.

* The university hosts global cultural events, like the Cuban National Orchestra and Danish String Quartet.

Pennsylvanians believe strongly in independence, which can be both good and
bad. The mountain folk can be a bit uncivilized, but if you want room to think
for yourself without the cost and congestion of a major city, it doesn't get
much better.

------
d--b
As you say, places near academic institutions should be pretty good for you.
Oxford or Cambridge in England may not be too expensive. Edinburgh or Glasgow
would be cheaper even.

In any case you may consider enrolling in some kind of academic research
program. Pursuing your own intellectual thing by yourself will be incredibly
tough and lonely.

~~~
tonyedgecombe
If you aren't part of the university then Oxford and Cambridge aren't great. I
think the pressures from tourism force them to isolate themselves. They are
expensive as well.

 _" Pursuing your own intellectual thing by yourself will be incredibly tough
and lonely."_

Yes.

------
discordance
If you haven't already seen it, this site shows living cost and other
parameters for different cities:

[https://nomadlist.com](https://nomadlist.com)

------
new_here
Cape Town is exceptional value. Lived there for 12 years. I would recommend
you try and work remotely from there earning a foreign currency like USD, GBP
or EUR. You will then find it very cheap.

Pros: Excellent quality of life (for your demographic). Beautiful outdoors,
quick to get around. Cheap compared to SF, NYC, LDN, AMS, BLN. Great food
scene. Not oversubscribed like SF, LDN etc. You can usually just walk into a
restaurant. Good, fun people.

Cons: Rand (ZAR) is a weak and volatile currency. Geographically out of the
way. Tech scene/talent is a bit small IMO (contrary to the local opinion) but
AWS EC2 also has a development office out there so that might be of interest.

Overall, Cape Town is a great place to live. Beautiful, cheap and you will
find you have plenty of time to pursue intellectual interests. I really miss
the lifestyle.

~~~
alphakappa
Cape Town feels like SF away from SF. Considering m all the interesting
neighborhoods, the beaches, Hwy 1 like roads, proximity of wine country in
Franshoek, great coffee, and all the beautiful little artsy towns nearby, it
might just be the Bay Area. I don’t know what the tech scene is like though.

------
batbomb
I got by okay without french in Lyon. I thought about (and think about) moving
there. The Netherlands is probably the best bet in mainland europe, you could
try Leiden/The Hague if Amsterdam is a bit on the pricy side.

------
rexarex
Chiang Mai, Thailand. It's super cheap and has a ton of 'digital nomads'
there. I didn't spend too much time doing that there but there were a few co-
working spaces, at least a couple years ago.

~~~
blocked_again
Not sure whether Chiang Mai qualifies for intellectual atmosphere.

~~~
TigerHimself
Why not ? You should check Niman area. Lot of coffee shop where writers and
other artists likes de hangout. As said a lot of remote workers are living
here. I know some people working for big US tech companies living here.

------
mrep
> focus on my own intellectual pursuits

If you plan on commercializing those pursuits, talk to a lawyer before signing
a contract. Most states/companies will give full ownership of all your work
even on your own time to the company. States like California are more
protecting of employee off time work but they still lean towards employers if
your work "relates" towards your employer which for the top paying companies
like Google/Apple/Facebook/Amazon/Microsoft is practically everything so you
can still be screwed.

------
fergie
Dundee, Scotland. Very cheap yet charming property (if you avoid the housing
schemes). Proximity to several good "Russel Group" universities (Edinburgh,
Glasgow, St. Andrews, Aberdeen, Dundee). Thriving games industry- a lot of AAA
games you might assume are American are actually made there. Commuting
distance to Edinburgh where there is a bit more internet-focused tech,
including regional offices for some of the larger tech companies. Lots of
culture and scenery.

The locals don’t really speak english though...

------
martinbundgaard
Aarhus is Denmark's second largest city. It has a great university, beautiful
surroundings and a thriving startup community. Also Danes are good English
speakers.

~~~
nullify88
I regularly visit from London. While I have yet to explore the startup
community, I do love the surroundings. My Danish is terrible (but slowly
improving!) and it definitely helps that almost everyone speaks English. I
believe English is taught in schools early, and TV and movies are subtitled
rather than dubbed over.

I believe Google also have an office here in Aabogade.

I'm looking to move, find work or work remotely in Aarhus but Brexit has
thrown a spanner in the works.

Any hints to give me a head start on exploring the startup community here?

------
vogt
If you want to go _really_ small, Pullman WA is exactly what you're asking
for. WSU and Schweitzer Engineering are the only shows in town (seriously) and
the population is about 10k not including the students. We rented a 2-story, 4
bedroom house with a beautiful view of the entire town and almost 2 acres of
lot for $1400/mo.

Wonderful schools, INCREDIBLY safe by any measure in the entire world, and
lots of professors and engineer-types who have migrated there and found a home
over all these years.

Now, the inevitable downside is that other than Moscow ID (~20k pop, another
college town but with a little bit more "community") just over the border,
there is _nothing_ nearby. No, really, nothing. The few towns that are
smattered about are 1000 people or less. The closest city is Spokane
(~150k-ish pop?) and Spokane frankly sucks. Seattle is 5 hours away. If this
doesn't bother you, and some snow and ice in the winter is fine, it's a good
fit. Of course there is the lowest possible likelihood of finding a local job
in software, but it is possible and I'm guessing from your post that this
isn't a concern.

But yeah, I would 100% describe it as a low-cost place with a strong
intellectual atmosphere.

------
lodish
Coming late to suggest something that may be a bit more from left field,
Canberra - Australia.

Canberra is a small city in Australia. Designed as the nations capital it has
a number of unusual characteristics such as strong town planning from its
inception, high average income, low unemployment and good traffic. It is
socially progressive compared to Australia and environmentally conscious.

60% of Canberra's population above 35 have at least one degree. The city has
multiple significant universities, including the Australian National
University - commonly ranked the best in Australia and 20th in the world by
the QS rankings. The city has to actively work to recruit sufficient
tradespeople.

The city is intermixed with the environment. It follows a multiple city center
design which means you can be traveling down the highway in the middle of the
city and not be able to see any buildings. There is considerable natural
parkland throughout the city. Further afield it is two hours to the snow
fields and two hours to the beach towns.

Living costs are reasonable, significantly less than the bay area, but not as
low as a rural town. Canberra has ranked well in world livability reports in
recent years. Being a small city there is also more choice in the costs
incurred, living in the outer suburbs or outside the city significantly
reduces rent but is still a very reasonable commute.

The tech industry is small but highly skilled and well paid. Most work is
focused around government and military, through direct employment and service
providers. Security and cloud migration work is in particular demand at the
moment. The open source community is also strongly represented with groups
such as IBM's OzLabs.

------
lonesword
Bangalore, India.

Not a very good place to "live" \- the traffic is _insane_, and you have to
deal with us Indians.

But on the plus side, a dollar goes a long long way in India. Bangalore is on
the expensive side for Indians. To put things into perspective, a decent dev
job in India gets you 1300$ per month after taxes and comfortably puts you in
the upper middle class. Monthly rent for a 3BHK apartment at a good location
will be around 500-600$. So if you're planning to live off your savings,
Bangalore is going to be cheap for you.

The weather is great.

The city is dubbed as the silicon valley of India, so lots of nerds, startups,
and hackathons. But if you're into the more academic sort of intellectual
pursuits, India is generally not the place for that.

Most of the people you want to interact with would speak English. Urban
Bangalore is anglicized. But any "locals" you hire for help (yes, you will be
able to afford a house help) will definitely not speak English.

On the other side, living in India would let you travel a lot. Just like
Europe, the language and culture change every 300-400 km.

I can't stress enough how cheap India is going to be for you. However, keep in
mind that everything else in the country is abysmal.

~~~
Paraesthetic
Just keep in mind they put their dollars sign on the wrong side of the values.
That might be a deal breaker

~~~
oblio
Heh. One might say they're right, aren't they? After all, it's "100 dollars",
not "dollar 100" :)

------
myth_buster
Greater Boulder Area, CO.

_If you can survive the winter_

\- It's college town with good departments (talks and other activities).

\- Decent startup scene

\- Some research orgs exist (NCAR/NREL)

\- Local incubator

\- Options to pursue an active life

~~~
kpennell
I lived in Boulder from September 2014-July 2015. I lived in Denver for 7
months after that and then moved to Oakland, California after that.

Boulder is the most frustrating and disappointing place I’ve lived. I tried so
many different things to make friends, date, build community, or simply have a
good night out but just couldn’t make it work there. For a place with such a
good reputation around the western US, it was such a disaster for me.

Moving to Denver felt like waking up after a long strange dream. I organized a
river float trip on the first weekend (via meetup, couchsurfing, and gociety)
and immediately had friends to hang out with in Denver (people who actually
wanted to hang! Which I could not find in Boulder). I’d go out to shows, chat
up the occasional lady and have a date the next week. I’d go out by myself and
often strike up conversations with friendly strangers. The Denver Cruiser ride
was a ton of fun. I can see why so many young Americans are moving there.

Boulder is really good for young attractive college students and families who
have old wealth or a couple exits to be able to afford property.

The OP question is good intellectual environment...I highly recommend you
don't go to Boulder.

edit: Boulder is really beautiful and amazing for biking. But I found the
people really private/cliquey and a strange mix of wealthy/snobby and
provincial.

~~~
czbond
I agree here. Dallas,TX transplant to Denver. Boulder seems to be where you
get either: college students, families with some money, and pretty introverted
"doing my own thing with my own small group" older singles.

On the flipside, there is nothing intellectual about Denver..... great people,
love the outdoors, but having intellectual conversations not involving Broncos
or Rockies doesn't happen.

~~~
kpennell
Yeah, agreed. I heard Colorado summarized as a place where people prioritize
their outsides vs. their insides.

------
INTPenis
Croatia. I'm biased because I'm an expat croat but it's actually a good
option.

It's central in Europe, you could replace Croatia with Slovenia if you wanted.

It's still relatively cheap compared to the rest of the EU.

There's a budding IT field and if you stick to the major cities you'll even
find a sub-culture of makers and hackers.

There might be better options out there but I had to mention it since I'm from
there.

------
VaedaStrike
While prices have long been rising here in Utah, they are still a pitance
relative to SV/SF you could set up near the University of Utah (or BYU if
you’re okay with the oft times awkward happy valley vibe) for what should be
very reasonable for a Software Engineer salary.

There’s a solid tech nexus forming whose geographic center is becoming a town
between Salt Lake City and Provo called Lehi. Tons of co-working spaces. It’s
one of only 4 states in the nation where computer software developer is the
most common job
[https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2015/02/05/382664837/map-...](https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2015/02/05/382664837/map-
the-most-common-job-in-every-state) it, at the very least, has a sizeable
workforce that depend on their ability to sling code to make a living.

I’ve heard a lot of heresay, from people who’d know, about how much Northern
Utah is resembling the appearance of SV from some decades back during its
ascent.

------
smilesnd
I would suggest looking for place that have hackerspaces/makerspaces. If you
can get enough people interested in purchasing space just on the aspect of
tinkering with things then it probably has a solid intellectual community. My
hackerspace had everyone from college professors to startup founders to just
the random joe that knew way to much about safe making.

------
CosmicShadow
Waterloo, Ontario, Canada. There is a reason why many big Valley companies are
setting up expansions here and why a huge chunk of engineers in the Valley are
from the University of Waterloo. A big thriving startup community with a good
culture and lots of smart folks around, very easy to get integrated and to get
support.

It's not as cheap as moving to a 3rd world country or some random places in
the States or Canada, but it's fairly reasonable, tons of smart people and
activity and you are within a 1.5hr driving radius of Toronto, Niagara Falls,
Hamilton, London, Guelph and most of the big SW Ontario places. Cheap flights
to go anywhere in the world often popup from Toronto or Hamilton, so that's a
bonus if you like to travel.

Again, this isn't comparable to moving to Portugal or the like, which is an
awesome place by the way, but if you want Canada, it's a good choice for
getting a lot without the prices of Toronto, which is one of the top 6 most
expensive cities in the world.

------
PortlandNerd
Portland, Maine

Yes, there's another Portland out there and it hits way above it's weight. If
you are an outdoorsy person who likes to nerd, live well and actually have a
pay check left over - I strongly recommend a visit out here. In my early 30's
and spent my 20's living in Boston, London and NYC.

I'd need a salary of +$500K to ever consider leaving Portland.

------
dejv
I spent my 20s traveling around the world, working and living from many
places. My favorites are (skiping cities already in this thread):

\- Brighton, UK: awesome music scene, lot of activities, chill atmosfere. Good
connection to London (< 1 hour by train) if you need to do networking. Great
for freelancers, not so many tech jobs. It is also quite expensive compared to
other places on list.

\- Brno, Czech Republic: my hometown and place where I decided to settle down
after years of traveling. University city, great place for gastronomy, bar
scene and coffee. Very cheap: you can live very confortably for 1200
USD/month. Good place when you want to hangout and when you earn money remote.
Close to Vienna or Prague.

\- Cluj, Romania: a bit more off the beaten path feel. A bit run down, but
having good youngful atmosfere. It is very cheap, good food, easy to meet new
people and find friends. English is widely spoken among young people.

~~~
growlist
I live near Brighton and am moving away soon: house prices in Sussex pretty
much anywhere with decent transport links are insane (the house I'm buying in
the West Country would be more than double the price over here, around £1m!!),
pollution is bad, there is drugs and crime, loads of the shops are just
overpriced crap for idiot hipsters, and it's always crowded with tourists.
It's such a shame because Sussex is lovely.

~~~
dejv
You can say that about any city of major size. If you live in Brighton, you
don't have to visit Beach and clubs around Middle street (I guess this is
where a lot of crime and fighting happen) and you dont have to go to Lanes and
areas around Pavillion (hipster shops and tourists).

Brighton for me was more about open mic events, lots of concerts, hikes in
nature, coffee shops and work. I barely seen any tourists.

~~~
growlist
Sure, but some cities are worse than others, and Brighton is particularly bad
for pollution and drugs. But then my feeling is that SE UK in general is
unpleasantly overcrowded. For example I don't bother trying to go anywhere on
a bank holiday any longer because the roads will be miserable, and anywhere
apart from obscure destinations will have hordes of daytrippers. Too many
people with too much money and too little space.

------
tmux314
There are lots of college towns throughout the US where property is cheap,
people are friendly and well-educated, and there is a lot of access to
culture. Chapel Hill, NC comes to mind. I've heard Ann Arbor, Wellesley,
Corvallis, and Fort Collins are all great. Obviously, there are many more
college towns that worth noting.

------
bgdnpn
Bucharest, Romania

[SALARIES] developers earn from 1500 EUR to 5000 EUR (after taxes)

[RENT] for 1 bedroom appt: ~300-400 EUR (near the city center)

[LANGUAGE] 80% of people you'll ever meet speak good english.

[ENTARTAINMENT] Hundreds of bars, cafes and theatres. Events, meetups,
festivals and concerts happening non stop.

[COMMUTING] If you live on one of the main subway lines (highly likey), it
will probably take you less than 15-20 minutes to reach the center.

[LOCATION] Mountains at 2 hours (train or car), seaside at 2.5 hours.

\+ there are cheap flights to any part of Europe (2-3 hours) for ~100 EUR or
less.

BAD SIDE: noisy, crowded and sometimes kind of stressful - but all of these
can be managed by travelling around the country, which is beautiful (lots of
mountains, rivers, lakes, interesting cities to visit..)

PS: I'm born and raised here, lived in Paris and worked from other big cities.
Bucharest is still the best place for me when I factor in (income, prices,
lifestyle).

~~~
sjapkee
BAD SIDE: Romania

~~~
oblio
You'd need to clarify that further.

Plus if anyone moves to Romania, I think they're expecting it to be a
developing country.

------
pimmen
Many good suggestions in this thread, but I would suggest looking into cities
in the 100 000 - 150 000 range with a good university nearby if you want to
try something different from living with millions of people.

I moved from my million person metropolitan area to Sundsvall, Sweden and it
is very cheap (I pay about €600 for a two bedroom apartment in the absolute
center of the city, I have no need for a car when it comes to day-to-day
transportation) and the intellectual community is very vibrant here with meet-
ups for software engineering and machine learning, as well as a maker space
run by people with degrees in electrical engineering.

Only problem? You climb in salary by switching jobs and small places are often
dominated by a few players when it comes to tech. But, for people who are fine
not climbing as fast as in a big city I can definitely recommend it.

------
steve_gh
Bristol, UK.

Vibrant city, lots of tech and a good aviation engineering scene (Airbus),
lovely countryside around. Reasonably affordable (compared to London). Good
communication links to the rest of the UK and Europe (International Airport -
London under 2 hrs by trains every 30 mins). Downside - traffic is hideous.

------
jcrei
Lisbon, Portugal. English level among locals is better than France, Italy or
Spain. Good Universities that provide you with well educated people to discuss
your intellectual pursuits. Still affordable compared to most places in Europe
or US. And the weather is good for most of the year.

------
asenna
I've worked remotely out of Chiang Mai, Thailand for a short period and it was
pretty awesome. There's a lot happening there, specially with the Blockchain
events and meetups that I went to. Met some really smart people there. Co-
working spaces are plenty and pretty good.

------
zongitsrinzler
I'm surprised no one has mentioned Teleport
([https://teleport.org/](https://teleport.org/)). This entire service was
created to find a better place to live, allowing you to compare various
attributes of each city.

------
ttroyr
Tulsa, OK. For my Midwestern town's relatively small size, low cost-of-living,
& southern hospitality, there's an incredible diversity of ideas. Just
recently, I've discussed internet security with Mozilla staff, augmented
reality with a credit card processing programmer, media in West Africa with an
international, Native-American university, theology with an well-known U.K.
author, oil discovery with a geologist, language learning with a Spanish
author, poverty education research with a doctorate-earning Nigerian, and
permaculture with a data-scientist. There are endless niche tech clubs;
international, artisan restaurants; and high-end art, music, & athletics ~
surprises most people who visit.

------
taf2
You should consider Maryland, it’s not the cheapest place but definitely
cheaper than the Bay Area and it has a bay. There are lots of smart people in
many different fields that makes for fun conversation. If your looking to
raise a family it has excellent schools too

------
corbett3000
Berlin or Amsterdam would be my picks in Europe.

Bangkok or KL for Asia.

Austin for the US.

~~~
murukesh_s
Since you mentioned Asia, consider Kerala, the southern most state in India.
India is like Europe - even though there are lots of similarities, most states
have its own language, a different culture etc. Kerala is known for it's high
literacy and higher standard of living. Plus its beautiful and raw too.

~~~
NavnitG
I agree with Pritish. But there is Startup culture in Trivandrum and Kochi.
Also, tech literacy is high in TVM and Kochi due the the tech parks.

------
candyman
There's much discussion here about Portugal and other countries but what about
the US? Could one go closer to a place like Colorado Springs (near Denver) or
Cincinnati? There are also places like Albany NY? What are some of the lowest
cost but good US areas?

~~~
rejschaap
Most Americans were asleep, that's why they are underrepresented. They might
catch up or they might see a long discussion about Portugal and just close the
window.

------
buboard
You asked about intellectual atmosphere, but most people here respond about
architecture / cost and comfort of living. I would like to see more answers
based on the _culture_ that one is going to be living in, not just the
cleaniness of apartments.

------
lewisjoe
Chennai, Southern (most) India.

Good intellectual crowd. Home to quite a few top engineering institutions.
Inflated with software developing people and companies, with strong focus on
making world-class products. I work for one such company, Zoho. Cheap living
costs, compared to other software hubs (say, Bangalore) of India and
definitely most of abroad. Decent English speaking crowd.

Almost checks out all the items in your list.

Cons: Living standards is a bit behind the curve, if you are from say London,
Bay Area, Berlin, Singapore or such. Road traffic and such very-indian-
problems will either excite you or bite you, subject to the person.

Even if you don't plan on living here, do visit Chennai sometime. You might
even decide to stay back ;)

------
misiogames
Buenos Aires

Pros

\- U$D goes a long way, specially now after the latest devaluation, and if
your income is in dollars, you are mostly not affected by inflation.

\- Big English speaking crowd in Buenos Aires in particular.

\- Intellectual community: there is a good ecosystem of startups at this
moment plus one of the biggest universities in South America: Universidad de
Buenos Aires

\- It's easy to establish yourself legally: is quite easy to get your
temporary resident status, just do the paperwork and you are set.

\- a bunch of pluses: quite cosmopolitan city with a lot of cultural
activities, lots of diversity.

\- the food :P

Cons

\- economic crisis: actually, this could be a pro if you have U$D, we locals
are used to this kinda of stuff but for some people this can be a bit scary.

\- Buenos Aires is a big city and can be a bit chaotic.

------
pintablex
Supprised no one mentioned Singapore yet. Lived there a couple of years. Huge
tech and business scene in Asia, everyone speaks English, they welcome foreign
talent, cheaper local food than most of western Europe, average residential
Internet connection is about 7 times faster than the US according to
speedtest.net, one page easy tax filing (no huge personal tax filing industry
like H&R block), and you can rent a room in a shared appartment for around
$400 per month. You also dont need a car and the typical doctor visit is much
cheaper than the US. Singapore is like a well-oiled machine, clean and
organized, a great feeling to be there. Worth checking out.

~~~
walamaking
People I know who have left Singapore tend to say it's a suffocating little
place though. Not to mention how conformist everyone is.

------
slacker49
Roanoke VA is really pretty and inexpensive, has a new Medical School and
Research Institute (Brain stuff) and is paired with Virginia Tech in
Blacksburg 45 minutes away. Located in Virginia's Blue Ridge Mountains.

Easy to choose between country, town or city.

------
zapata131
This one could be an easy one: Guadalajara, Mexico.

I know what you may be thinking, but bare with me.

Guadalajara has one of the best "tech scenes" in Latin America, with lots of
government subsidies and affordable talent that attract foreign tech giants.

Just to give you some examples: Intel, HP, Oracle, and IBM all have major R&D
and programming facilities in Guadalajara. Amazon also recently set up its own
R&D facility in town. Continental Tires produces around 20 patents a year from
its local research facility (most of them related to software and electronics
used in the car industry).

But that's not it, there are lots of small-to-medium sized local startups in
Guadalajara. The scene has demonstrated that creativity and innovation are
something you can always find around the corner.

I come from Academia and I can tell you that in Guadalajara you can find some
of the best Science Research centers in the country: CINVESTAV Guadalajara,
CIATEJ, and the Universidad de Guadalajara all have top-notch researchers in
tech related fields ranging from Biotech to pure Computer Science.

Talking about the city itself, Guadalajara, unlike Mexico City, has just the
right size. One of the biggest cities in the country but small enough to move
around without much hassle. Geographically privileged, Guadalajara lays in the
middle of the country, a few hours away from beautiful and warm beaches from
the Pacific Ocean and near from just about everywhere in Mexico. You'll find
lots of stuff to do.

Have I mentioned the cost of living and the work-life-balance? Living in
Guadalajara is cheap; you can easily find great places to rent, the food scene
is amazing (and surprisingly cheap), great craft beer, great food from all
around the world, and a really vibrant cultural and art scene. You'll have a
good time.

A lot of people in Guadalajara talk English, and there's a big expat community
in the city and in the towns surrounding the city.

I really believe that, if you are looking for living on the cheap and have a
place to have good discussions about tech, academia, science and more,
Guadalajara should be on your list.

------
nsarafa
Canggu, Bali, Indonesia. Tons of intelligent expats from all walks of life
running around. Great temporary base as cost of living is cheap, the expat
community is strong and you're never more than 10 minutes away from the beach.

------
vishnugupta
Bangalore, India.

\+ Reasonable cost of living (compared to the median salary of a SE) if you
don't eat out much.

\+ Rents haven't sky rocketed yet.

\+ Thriving tech eco system/community.

\+ You can get by on English. Though learning Hindi (for rest of India), and
Kannada (for Bangalore) is highly recommended :-)

\+ Good food and pub scene. In fact Bangalore is known as the pub capital of
India! Decent night life too.

\+ Lots of weekend getaway places. Himalayas is basically ~3hrs away by flight
that costs ~70USD.

\- Pollution, bad physical infrastructure (road, clean drinking water etc.,)
that's getting worse. Owning a 4-wheeler doesn't make sense anymore. It's not
needed anyway.

\- Bad air connectivity to USA. Bangalore isn't a hub.

------
btian
Mexico City is cool. There are many emerging start-ups, affordable, and close
to US.

------
garyfirestorm
I went to school at Michigan Tech. This is located in Houghton, which is Upper
Peninsula of Michigan. If you like lots and lots of snow this place is pretty
good. Primarily rent/house will cost little. It's a college town and has
international students (mainly Chinese and Indians), the place is very quiet,
there's one Walmart and chain of restaurants. MTU has library where you can
find lot of people. I haven't been to cafes around the place, so I can't say
for certainty if it will meet the 'intellectual atmosphere' criteria.

------
mehrdada
Davis, California is quite a bit cheaper and close enough to the Bay Area

~~~
howwwwl
I agree with you on this one, I lived in Davis in 2016 for a few months. The
University brings a lot of young people to the area, there is a decent
restaurant and bar scene, lots of people bicycle here, the weather is sunny
and mostly dry. If you want to go to SF for an excursion, you can ride the
Amtrak train from downtown Davis to Berkeley for < $25. It is about an hour
north-east from the bay area by car. I can't speak much about the tech scene,
but I was working as a developer for a _very_ small tech company during my
time there. But I imagine if you dig a bit you can find fellow techies. Also
my impression for living there for 6 months was that Davis really felt like a
"little San Francisco". The prevailing vibe is liberal and intellectual. Food
is affordable, plentiful and fresh as Davis is largely an Agricultural
community. It is a quiet community and feels very safe -- the kind of place
where pretty young ladies feel safe to walk/cycle home at 1am after they have
been drinking.

------
John_KZ
I'd say fix your personal problems and stay in your home country. If you can
currently afford to live and work in SV, you can move 500-1000km in any
direction and live cheaply, while staying in your own country.

"Intellectual atmosphere" is a meaningless buzzword. If you're looking for
high-earning academics to hang out with you've gotta live in an expensive city
near a university. If you mean you like a hipster-y atmosphere, you'll find
such people nearly everywhere if you go looking for them.

------
twfarland
Prague, if you live outside the tourist area. Very healthy arts/music scene.
And you're a short train ride from Berlin, Vienna, and Budapest, which have
great scenes of their own.

------
jmkni
Come to Belfast, Northern Ireland!

The tech scene is great, loads of work at the moment (great day rates), lots
of meetups and startups, 2 Universities, property is cheap and I'll buy you a
pint!

------
manskybook
Investigate Minneapolis. Winters are hard, but it is a great biking place, and
has many cultural institutions that punch way above their weight. Its tech
focus may be more in the direction of medical devices and commodity ag, but
that's not bad. Cray Research grew up a stone's throw away, and the area still
supports significant resources for the company.

Good food, too, and, despite being land-locked, lots of water activities, even
within the cities (swimming beaches, boating, etc.)

------
econnor
Surely you make your own intellectual life and take it with you wherever you
go? You will think more interesting thoughts in a terrible place. Most ideas
that matter are born from adversity or quiet reflection. And depth requires a
bit of focus. For accessible culture and sophistication the candidates are
fairly obvious.

Nigeria is going to be interesting and is full of independent thinkers. And
I've heard good things about Panama City. But both possibly pricey. Belfast is
way cheap.

------
eof
I am currently in Cuenca Ecuador. It's certainly not true that everyone speaks
english, but there is a strong ex-pat community.

It's a beautiful, very cheap city. There is fiber internet and there are
universities here. A good intellectual atomosphere? Hard to say; there are
intelligent people around and you can become friends.

I am here specifically to focus on intellectual pursuits while living cheaply.
Latin America in general is wonderful for that.

------
lixtra
You did not write if you plan to do employed work or just live off your
savings / external income. Even for Americans a work permit is not easy to
attain in most places of the world. Also if you work employed locally, you
have to consider how much you have to work to have a good live in that
location.

While many consider Switzerland expensive, once you compute how long you have
to work for the coffee it may no longer sound that expensive.

------
latchkey
I moved to Saigon, Vietnam two years ago. English is definitely a challenge,
but it isn't impossible and a lot of people in the growing tech scene speak
english. Cost of living is minuscule and it is very easy to live here in
general. Easy to get a year long multiple entry visa, place to live and the
food is excellent. Relatively safe too, it is mostly just petty theft, so
watch your surroundings and you'll be fine.

------
JHM168
Check out www.nomadlist.com

However some quick personal recommendations for you.. I've been where you are
:)

ASIA

\- Bali, Indonesia (beach, hippie style) \- Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia (IMO, South
East Asia's NYC) \- Chiang Mai, Thailand (nomad hotspot, jungles) \- Ho Chi
Minh, Vietnam (city, cheap everything)

EUROPE

\- Lisbon or Porto, Portugal (beautiful places, beaches not far away) \-
Barcelona, Spain (not so cheap anymore, city + beach) \- Tallinn, Estonia

SOUTH AMERICA

\- Medellin, Colombia \- Buenos Aires, Argentina \- Santiago, Chile

Hope that helps!

------
hurricaneSlider
Somewhat relevant:
[http://makeindiegamesincapetown.com/](http://makeindiegamesincapetown.com/)

------
billwear
If you are willing to learn good German eventually, there are many place in
Germany that could meet your requirements. It is relative easy to get a
freelancer's Visa, and this gives you much time to learn German to pass the B1
exam required for a permanent stay. The healthcare alone will make it worth
it, but the intellectual climate is strong everywhere, even among stay-at-
home-partners.

------
JoeAltmaier
Strangely, Iowa City. Huge University, art and science lectures and events all
the time, street music downtown most nights with dozens of clubs and events.
Festivals, protests, book readings. Clean and mostly safe (drunks at 2AM can
get rowdy). English of course, but a dozen other languages heard in any coffee
shop or restaurant (because of the International student population)

~~~
honkycat
Sick of people saying this. Iowa City is not a world class city. Period. Iowa
City is a backwater.

It's population is extremely white. "street music downtown" and "dozens of
clubs and events" is a complete given in most major US cities and the only
reason you would think that is special is if you have never left the midwest.

The city is ugly and has literally no public transportation. It is extremely
car-centric and you will be constantly battling traffic if you are crazy
enough to bike. ( People will be aggressive and not respect you )

It's culture reflects the rural trump-land small towns that surround it. Good
old boys People walking around in full camo after going hunting over the
weekend.

edit:

Also: Iowa is ugly and there is nothing to do there. You can find somewhere
cheap in Colorado or Oregon and have the option to go hiking and skiing.

In Iowa, you have absolutely BRUTAL winters and nothing to do outside the
entire year anywyay. Unless you find walking next to high-ways flanked by
corn-fields with no sidewalk a great natural experience.

~~~
JoeAltmaier
No; I think its enough for one person most of the time. I can participate in
the activites, or I can go home to my house in the country 10 minutes away.
There is a new downtown transit center with a very convenient bus system. Bike
lanes and paths have been created everywhere.

And yes its a mixture of cultures; that's kind of the point. You can run to
Silicon Valley and hide among your own brogrammer tribe, or you can go
somewhere and meet different people

~~~
JoeAltmaier
And thanks for promoting the idea that Iowa is ugly; keeps folks away which is
nice. Right now we're in fall color; I hiked along the river this weekend and
it was gorgeous. Can spend an afternoon at the lake with the cousin if I can
wrangle an invite, or go to the public access. Camping, canoeing. The best
secondary road system around, with thousands of miles of countryside biking
opportunities.

Not everybody likes all these things; some folks want only the bright lights
and noise. But I add my 2 cents to round out the discussion.

------
bordercases
As an extension to the common advice here (move where the academics are),
check what research you enjoy and find out which universities produce that
research. Then, secondly see if there is a meetup scene where the people doing
this research at the graduate level hang out. That should get you into some
network or another once you filter the alternative by living cost threshold.

------
reilly3000
Here is a lovely data driven answer, if you are looking in the US and are
willing to use political data as a proxy for 'thriving intellectual
community':

[https://beta.observablehq.com/@jake-low/how-well-does-
popula...](https://beta.observablehq.com/@jake-low/how-well-does-population-
density-predict-u-s-voting-outcome)

------
unstuckdev
One person's intellectual is another person's babbling idiot. It might help to
specify exactly what you're looking for.

------
fractalwrench
Bath, UK is a pretty great place to live (and cheap by Bay Area standards).
Stunning architecture, right next to the countryside, and the city regularly
makes it into the list of top safest/best places to live in the world.

There's a decent tech scene in both Bath/Bristol, and London is only 90
minutes away by train. Fire me a message if you have any questions.

------
rb808
Upstate NY/Vermont/NH/Western MA. Taxes aren't low, but housing is cheap and
people are relatively sophisticated.

------
myself248
Could I put in a good word for Detroit? It's, umm, not as third-world as
jokesters like to make it out to be.

You've got Ann Arbor and UMich a few minutes away, Wayne State in midtown, a
thriving tech and art scene, all the music you can imagine, and cheap, cheap
cost of living.

We do call soda "pop" though, so the language issues might be a little weird.
;)

~~~
goodoldneon
I've lived in Ann Arbor for the last 4 years, and rent is shockingly expensive
for a college town. The food scene also kinda sucks. There a couple great
restaurants, but most are overpriced and mediocre.

------
nellyspageli
Berlin! Berlin is by far the cheapest capital in Western Europe. You can get a
nice sit down meal in a restaurant for 5-6 euros in the center of the city and
rent a nice apartment for 500 euros a month. There is a large tech scene and
everyone speaks english here. It's sometimes hard to practice German because
English is so common!

------
nasir
Amsterdam is very interesting for what you want. The city is practically a big
village. Everything is reachable by bike so no need to use the public
transport. Everyone speaks English perfectly though it is a big plus if you
speak Dutch. The tech scene is really good with a great market for software
engineers and well paid job.

------
welcome_dragon
If you don't mind some growing pains, Nashville TN. The tech scene is growing
very rapidly so there's no shortage of work, and the population is well
educated. Vanderbilt is here as well as other excellent universities nearby.
Winters are very mild, living is cheaper than most places, and the nightlife
is great.

------
blindstargazer
Ensenada in Baja California, México, there's a big expat community, there's
beach, you are like 1-2 hours from San Diego, it does have a Mexico National
University Unit, it hosts the baja score off road races, also there is a lot
of breweries & fancy restaurants, plus, is has the same bay area timezone.

------
therealmarv
Go here and sort by cheapest country and look for the other things you value
in that countries: [https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-
living/rankings_by_country.js...](https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-
living/rankings_by_country.jsp) (crowdsourced cost of living)

------
the_clarence
I have made such a list myself.

Asia: Bangkok, ChiangMai, Taiwan, Shanghai, Beijing, Hanoi.

Europe: Lisbon, Madrid, Milan, Bordeaux, Montpellier, Berlin, Varsaw

Not sorted

~~~
panorama
Would you consider the English level of Bordeaux or Montpellier good though?

~~~
the_clarence
Definitely.

~~~
panorama
Thank you, I was initially dismayed because they have low English-levels on
nomadlist [0][1] but I'll look further into them.

[0] [https://nomadlist.com/bordeaux](https://nomadlist.com/bordeaux) [1]
[https://nomadlist.com/montpellier](https://nomadlist.com/montpellier)

------
synergyS
Check out Belgrade, Serbia.

Lots of expats from all over the world, vibrant ever growing tech scene.

Cheap 1-2hr flights to other European destinations.

------
me551ah
You can also consider NCR , India. It's the national captial region which
includes Delhi, Gurgaon and Noida.

Pros. Internet - 1 Gbps internet at ~20$ a month

Lots of great colleges - IIT D, JNU, AIIMS, DCE Housing - You can get a 2500ft
3BHK high rise condo in gurgaon for ~800$/month. With that you'll get a
jacuzzi, modular kitchen, round the clock security, pool , gym etc.

Labour is cheap - Maids which do cleaning, laundry and cooking cost
~150$/month. Drivers cost around 300 . You really don't have to do chores

Great food - Everything is app based anyway, so you can get good quality
pasta/salad home delivered to your place at 3AM for less than 10 dollars.

Good Roads - Unlike some cities in India, the NCR region is connected by
highways since it's made up of multiple states. Though if you have got friends
in another part of town, it can mean a commute of upto 70 kms. It has a
population of 24 million.

Great quality weed - weed is virtually legal and will set you back by
~10$/quarter, for ~70$ you can get 10gms of 30-60%THC concentrate ( hashish).
Lots of microbreweries in gurgaon too.

Cons

Pollution - It can get a bit bad in winter, but you can install airpurifiers
in your car and home to offset most of the effects.

~~~
blocked_again
Please don't. Delhi and NCR is overpopulated and is one of the most polluted
cities in the world. The weather is just terrible. Very unsafe cities. Also
one of the worst cities in India for women. And you would not be making
anywhere close to what you make in SFO. There are good Universities when
compared to other Indian universities but I don't think nobody calls Delhi an
Intellectual city. Has nothing to justify moving from SFO unless you are a lot
into Indian politics probably.

~~~
me551ah
Woah, so much hate for Delhi !

I personally like the weathers in Delhi , there is a good variety of seasons
in Delhi. Winters are my favourite part of Delhi weather. Some people like
changing seasons and some people like a particular weather.

The safety aspect is a bit blown out of proportion tbh. Statistically Delhi
doesn't fare any worse than any modern city. United States has above 5x the
number of reported rapes compared to India even though it has a much lesser
population.

Well OP was looking for something out of SFO, salaries in europe are pretty
much comparable to what you'd get in top tier companies in India. SFO is hard
to beat even within the US itself. But the high cost of living in SFO means
that you can easily save more while working in India while leading a
compareable(if not better) life.

~~~
blocked_again
Crime rates doent mean anything. Kerala has the highest crime rate in India.
It just means people are not afraid to go to police and report the crime. On
the other hand Kerala must be one of the safest states to live in India. Delhi
is a really dangerous city. Especially for a foreigner. Crime is extremely
common in Delhi.

> Well OP was looking for something out of SFO, salaries in europe are pretty
> much comparable to what you'd get in top tier companies in India.

Its defintely not comparable. Almost every beginner software engineers in
Europe makes $60K easily. How many beginner Software Engineers in India make
that? Lol. AFter working for some time in India and moving back in USA he
would have peanuts as savings.

> But the high cost of living in SFO means that you can easily save more while
> working in India while leading a comparable(if not better) life.

I dont think Software Engineers in Delhi have a better quality of life than
Engineers in SFO. Thats the reason why people from India do masters in USA and
not the opposite. India is nowhere top in quality of life and happiness index.

~~~
me551ah
Crime rate is the only statictic that should matter IMO. With a literacy rate
of 82% in delhi, it's highly unlikely that crime gets underreported. But how
many cities in kerala has more than 5 million. Delhi has 24 million, SF isn't
even 1 million. The absolutely number of crime is always going to be higher,
but as long as you consider the crime rate it's low. I've had multiple
foreigner friends from dubai and US, and none of them felt that crime is
extremely common. People do try to get out more money, but you can always
bargain. >Crime rates doent mean anything. Kerala has

It's not uncommon to make $60k if you are from a top tier college and in a top
tier company. There are so many software engineers that you get it across the
payscale. Uber, Directi, Google, Rivigo etc all pay quite a lot. >Its
defintely not comparable. Almost every beginner software engineers in Europe
makes $60K easily

Again it's relative, for the average person yes it's lower. But if you are in
the top tier ( which an engineer from SF is ), then they would be in the top
1% of earners in the city which allows them to live a lot better. How many
people in SF do you know who live alone in a high rise 3BHK floor, have a
maid+driver and can get food delivered at 3AM? There are also way more good
looking women in Delhi than SFO ;) >I dont think Software Engineers in Delhi
have a better quality of life than Engineers in SFO.

~~~
blocked_again
> I've had multiple foreigner friends from dubai and US, and none of them felt
> that crime is extremely common.

How is a foreigner coming to Delhi for a few days going to have an idea of
whether the crime is high or not?

> . Delhi has 24 million, SF isn't even 1 million. Ha ha.

Delhi having 24 million population is another reason why he should not move
there. The place is overpopulated.

> The absolutely number of crime is always going to be higher, but as long as
> you consider the crime rate it's low.

Delhi has the highest crime rate across all Indian cities. Almost twice as
that of Banglore and Mumbai.

> It's not uncommon to make $60k if you are from a top tier college and in a
> top tier company.

No company is paying beginners anywhere near that salary in India (Unless you
work for some quants). I have friends in Uber, Flipkart, media.net,
Codenation, Google, Nutanix and they don't make anywhere near to $60k in hand.
Again I am talking about beginners with 1 2 years experience. But if you are
in Europe you can make much more than that if you are beginer.

> How many people in SF do you know who live alone in a high rise 3BHK floor,
> have a maid+driver and can get food delivered at 3AM?

I am pretty sure the people in SFO dont want to move to India just because
they want a maid and driver. I dont think most people even care. It has almost
nothing to do with quality of living. The factors that matter like personal
safety, health, public services, education, transportation, nightlife,
networking, weather, air quality, happiness, female friendliness etc are
terrible in Delhi compared to SFO.

Again I know that you are happy with Delhi. You are born and raised in India
and adapted to the country. Its not the same for a person who was born and
raised in west. They are used to a higher quality of life. Its would be
obvious to you if you visit the states :)

Take a look at this

[https://nomadlist.com/san-francisco](https://nomadlist.com/san-francisco)
[https://nomadlist.com/delhi](https://nomadlist.com/delhi)

~~~
me551ah
Friends who have stayed here for more than 3+ years. One was an australian who
was starting her own brand on myntra, one girl was from Dubai who was working
in an architechture firm in delhi, one is a friend who moved from dubai 8
years ago and is now starting his own pharma company etc etc

>How is a foreigner coming to Delhi for a few days

A lot more cities in the world have higher population density than Delhi.
Overpopulation isnt a bad thing

>Delhi having 24 million population

True not for beginners, but people reach there in 3-5 years.

>No company is paying beginners anywhere

This statement is loaded with quite a few assumptions. Healthcare in SF is
overloaded and waiting periods for doctors and specialists can go into months.
Delhi is actually famous for medidal tourism in the world. With the rising gun
crime and culture personal safety is a problem in the US. Delhi has a much
better metro than SF a few times ,I've been to US and it has a small trams.
etc. >I am pretty sure the people in SFO

I have visited SF a couple of times and didn't enjoy it much. Stayed near
fisherman's wharf for more than a couple of weeks. It was good and I would
visit again though. >Its would be obvious to you if you visit the states :)

------
httpz
If you want cheap and quiet, Raleigh area (Research Triangle) in North
Carolina is great. There isn't a thriving tech scene like some big cities but
it has good schools like Duke, UNC and, NCSU, which attracts intellectuals.
The lack of other industries sort of keeps the other type of people out.

------
datainplace
St. Louis, Missouri. You have a two top schools, WashU and SLU, along with
several other strong colleges. The city has become the Chess capital of the
US. And you can buy a house for $450K in a walkable neighborhood that would
cost well over $1M anywhere else in the US. A very underrated city.

------
rout39574
Gainesville, Florida has low cost of living and the University of Florida.

You're within what the eastern seaboard considers "A commute" of three major
metropolitan areas: Jacksonville, Tampa, and Orlando.

It's about as far away from the ocean as you can get in Florida, which
decreases the hurricane risk.

------
thruflo22
[https://originalshrewsbury.co.uk](https://originalshrewsbury.co.uk) \-- it's
the birthplace of Darwin, home to a newly formed independent university, it's
day-trippable to all major UK cities and it's insanely cheap and nice.

~~~
thekarel
Can confirm it's a charming place

------
mitchtbaum
Here are a couple of resources you could use to find active places:

[https://wiki.hackerspaces.org/](https://wiki.hackerspaces.org/)

[https://nomadlist.com/forum/](https://nomadlist.com/forum/)

------
panda888888
Not super cheap nor super intellectual, but consider somewhere in the
Netherlands. The social safety net is excellent so there's not a ton of stress
in the population as a whole. I recommend Delft, but the country is small
enough that you could practically live anywhere.

------
suchoudh
Its so interesting to see people offer their opinion of the "Well" they live
in.

[http://mcjoshi21.blogspot.com/2014/05/todays-
subhashita.html](http://mcjoshi21.blogspot.com/2014/05/todays-subhashita.html)

------
smcquade92
Hawaii wouldn't be ideal based on your criteria. Living costs aren't low and
there isn't a thriving intellectual community. Fair Hawaiian weather and
vibrant outdoor living, however, have attracted intellectuals ranging from
Garrett Lisi to Joseph Campbell.

------
ydnaclementine
All of these HN articles about Estonia in the past, and not one mention here.
I'm interested because of how tech thinking the government seems to be

Maybe the people who are there don't want to tell others so no one else moves
there because it's so great

------
eximius
If you don't mind the humidity, Houston has an extremely low cost of living
and, well, as one of the largest cities in the US it has a little bit of
everything. It is also known for it's diversity and high per capital
restaurant count.

------
klrr
Anyone with experience of tech work in SE Asia? I am currently studying in
Beijing, and I am really surprised how nice the life-style is here. But from
what I've read, software engineering is not the best profession here
opportunity-wise.

------
TekMol
Talking about living in other places:

What is a good way to find an apartment for a few weeks?

Just use AirBnB and see if the apartments offer a discount for a longer stay?

Or are there better ways?

I play with the idea to live in Lisbon and/or somewhere in Asia a few weeks
during the coming months.

------
DenisM
I heard good things about Berlin. Not first-hand account though. They say it's
not just high-tech, but also arts. I think that might be a valuable
combination.

Let us know how it works out when you settle down somewhere, wherever that is.

------
ElDji
Have you ever wondered what you would bring to the community you plan to move
to?

------
gms
Cambridge, Massachusetts.

People will say it’s expensive but it’s cheap relative to the Bay Area.

------
anon1253
Groningen, The Netherlands. Population 300k, strong university and other
educational fascilities. Has the Dutch infrastructure but still relatively
cheap compared to the other majors cities (eg Amsterdam)

------
squeral
I'd consider Lisbon for the life style and most people speak English.

------
qbaqbaqba
Prague. The center of Europe. Multicultural heritage, great atmosphere.

------
Emma_Goldman
Depends what you mean by a 'good intellectual atmosphere', I suppose. I would
recommend Edinburgh, Berlin, Glasgow, Manchester, and Cambridge (from personal
experience).

------
dboreham
Hesitant to encourage more people to move here but...South West Montana.
Bozeman, Livingston, Helena..

I say "here" but I'm typing this in SF...so I guess I mean "there".

~~~
j_moulin32
Isn't Rightnow the only tech company in Gallatin Valley?

~~~
dboreham
Not by a long long way, no. The largest best known perhaps. Tech scene these
days is pretty big and diverse.

------
iancmceachern
We love Sacramento. It's still close enough to the Bay Area, but the cost if
living and population density are far more manageable, and the food is great!

------
huangc10
Just off top of my head...Vancouver, Seattle, Austin, Denver, Toronto, and
Waterloo. Cheaper than the Bay Area and still with an intellectually high
community.

~~~
forkandwait
Nice, places, but I don't think they count as "affordable" by most standards.

------
flippyhead
Check out [http://numbeo.com](http://numbeo.com) for a great way to compare
the cost between different cities.

------
rb808
Given the huge number of responses to this question. The answer seems to be
everywhere is cheaper than the Bay Area which isn't exactly a surprise. :)

------
luka-birsa
A couple of suggestions:

\- If you enjoy going out, like laidback attitude - Berlin. Not super cheap,
but way cheaper than SF.

\- If you like the sun, sea, surfing - Portugal.

\- If you like outdoors, security, ecology, arts - Ljubljana (Slovenia).

I'm biased since I'm a Slovene, but work-life balance is insane in Slovenia,
the environment is super clean, everything is super safe (as in no murders).
If you're remoting you'll be earning top dollar, but even mediocre senior tech
job will net you enough to support a family living in Ljubljana and live very
comfortably (long vacations, travel, eating out, nice apartment)...

------
athal7
Love it here in East Lansing, Michigan! Great size of town, people are
intellectual and friendly, some decent tech meet ups, and the state is
beautiful.

------
TigerHimself
I strongly recommend Chiang Mai, especially Niman area.

------
jaggs
Stockholm? Cultural, very solid tech scene, great quality of life in general,
and great seasonal activities. [Edit: oh and English everywhere.]

~~~
fibbery
Not cheap

------
mmjaa
Vienna, Austria. Great quality of life, very intellectual environment. You'll
probably find it easy to move here and get a job, too ..

------
california_aks
I would recommend moving to Berlin. It is a small state in itself, so even if
you are located somewhere outside the city, you will be close to the actual
city. Also, due to many colleges and recent flush of student population, you
will find many English speaking immigrants as well as Germans. Intellectually
it is rich. Berlin is one of the hottest destinations in Europe for start-up
scene, so you will find many free-lancing gigs for yourself there..last but
not the least, night-clubs in Berlin are just amazing..

------
thiago_fm
Berlin. But learn German. English is fine here, but as you mention
"intellectual", you can probably learn that as well, right?

------
saudioger
Interesting that most of these places involve freezing your tits off for half
the year. Are warmer places typically less-intellectual?

~~~
xyzzyz
Maybe having to spend lots of time inside, as opposed to ability to enjoy the
weather, has lots to do with it?

------
make3
Montreal! Multiple universities, huge tech & ai sectors, thriving culture
scene if you're into that, very inexpensive housing

------
mapster
I think many towns/cities with good size liberal arts colleges are interesting
and affordable - outside the big metro areas.

------
axansh
NZ is good an option. I heard couple of startup moving to nz from bay area.

Good atmosphere, easy visa, government supportive for migrated ppl

~~~
te_chris
Cost of living in Auckland and Wellington is high (rent and food, mostly), but
great fibre internet and huge demand for engineers. Big days rates from what
I've heard (I'm in London now).

Auckland is on two harbours, absolutely beautiful geography, but you'll need a
car and it can be a congested, frustrating nightmare. Lots of smart people
though, universities, cultural stuff etc. GREAT food. Seriously good - loads
of Asian migration will do that.

Wellington is much smaller, also beautiful, but worse climate. Lots going on
though, for a city of its size (150k cbd, 400k wider area). Is the capital, so
combination of liberal arts educated public servants, HQ of Xero and centre of
film industry (including Weta Digital), 2 universities both with strong
creative schools, HQ of national ballet company, HQ of national orchestra and
lots of other stuff makes it a pretty great city intellectually. Really
cosmpolitan, also great food, but the asian food isn't as good as Auckland.
Great local tech scene and lots of creative people.

------
jarjar12
AusTin Texas.

Blue dot in Red Sea. Many many opportunities. Our pay if far better than Bay
Area. Sr software here makes 130+ lead at 160+.

Entry level is 85

~~~
welcome_dragon
I don't think that pay is anywhere near Bay area rates

~~~
dubya123
When Salary is adjusted for CoL Austin is often at or near the top. When you
factor in large stock grants in SV/Bay Area things do get murkier.

------
sjg007
Minneapolis fits the bill. Maybe Pittsburgh.

------
malydok
Related question: where would you live with a remote job away from the big
cities if you valued peace and the outdoors?

------
Temasik
Johor [http://iskandarmalaysia.com.my](http://iskandarmalaysia.com.my)

------
worfor
What about Singapore? Very nice place with few good co-working spaces. You can
visit Bali/Thailand on weekdays.

------
tomjacobs
Melbourne Australia. Tech meetups, but expensive. Top city to live in the
world, almost every year.

------
bandy008
Philippines - It's the best place to be. Just imagine coding in front of a
breath taking view. Everything is cheap. No BS. Plus the beautiful nature and
everybody speaks english.

Here's a quick testament about the Philippines.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f-tKE812-ZY](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f-tKE812-ZY)

~~~
actionowl
Philippines is indeed very cheap but that comes at a cost. I've been here a
year and can share some struggles.

Internet is OK at best. I have an internet line from three different
providers, all three have been offline at the same time more than once, and
speeds drop to dial-up or worse on my main line at least 2-3 times a month for
hours at a time. I've observed this at multiple locations.

"Brown outs" are pretty common, get a UPS.

Good quality electronics and computer components can sometimes be tough to
find but a quick trip to Singapore will sort that out.

Shipping can be a nightmare, I've waited months to receive packages in some
cases.

Any involvement with any government run entity is a nightmare. I got a parking
ticket because I accidentally left my motorbike in a non-parking space. I went
to the office when it opened at 8AM to pay it. It took me 4 hours to pay the
parking ticket.

Traffic is so insane and rules are so rarely enforced that I stopped riding my
motorbike.

I'd suggest avoiding Manila, as all the Taxi drivers want to rip you off or
haggle a fare with you instead of use the meter (same problem in Bangkok,
Thailand). But there are plenty of cities in PH that don't suffer from that
problem (Davao for example, is great).

Last but not least: Don't drink the water. Be careful where you eat. Food
hygiene and quality standards might shock you.

But, that's about all the bad things I can come up with, and they're all
manageable. The people are great, cost is low, and fly to nearby countries
cheaply and quickly.

~~~
bandy008
I agree! When you come to the Philippines, skip Manila and go all the way to
Cebu or anywhere Visayas area or Davao.

Internet?? Well yea! Depends on the area you're in. I have 50mbs on a fiber
connection and no major problem so far. Except when I travel to nearby
islands, then internet connection can be really bad.

~~~
NonEUCitizen
Where do you have 50Mbps fiber?

~~~
bandy008
Im currently in Cebu. I have a line on PLDT Home fiber that they offer
starting from 5mbs up to 100mbps. It's been reliable so far.

~~~
NonEUCitizen
How much does PLDT charge? Thanks.

~~~
bandy008
About 2.8K a month in PHP.

------
Fomite
Pullman, WA or Moscow, ID if you're okay living in the middle of nowhere, but
like the West.

------
User23
Oak Ridge Tennessee has an extremely high average intelligence and is quite
affordable.

------
yakshaving_jgt
As far as Europe is concerned, you'd be _mad_ to choose anything West or
North.

As for the guy saying Porto is one of the cheapest cities in Europe…

WHAT?! It's €15 for a 'Francesinha', and this food is garbage anyway. There
are much nicer places to go in Portugal where the prices and quality aren't
ruined by tourism.

~~~
JosephRedfern

         It's €15 for a 'Francesinha', and this food is garbage anyway.
    
    

If you consider it garbage, don't buy it. You absolutely do not have to pay
€15 for a Francesinha in Porto, and there's a huge array of other options. Of
course if you go to the most touristy places you'll end up paying touristy
prices, but if you really think that this is the case throughout the entire
city then you can't have looked around much.

~~~
yakshaving_jgt
Relative to so many European destinations, I don't think there are a huge
array of options in Porto. It's mostly a student and tourist city, so that's
who are catered to. Food is poor, and nightlife is poor.

There are higher quality places like The Yeatman, but this is not somewhere
the average tech worker can eat regularly.

------
quizbiz
Atlanta!

------
fooker
Check out university towns with offices of a few decent companies.

------
halayli
I live in SF as well, I find Portland a very good alternative.

~~~
stock_toaster
I love Portland, but I wouldn't consider it especially cheap. Bend may be an
option for people who really enjoy the outdoors and/or are looking for a
smaller town.

------
jypepin
Amsterdam is a blast :)

------
thatfrenchguy
Careful about the culture shock if you move abroad though...

------
sunir
Ann Arbor, Michigan. Small town feel. Top universities.

------
botswana99
Bloomington Indiana. Super cheap cute college town.

------
mahasvin
Scotland. Most definitively, outskirts of Edinburgh.

~~~
fafournier
Definitely so, nice atmosphere, good transport, both city, country and also
international planes, a couple of universities with good ranking and an active
academic life. Even in the city center life remains not too expensive! In my
opinion, a bit less of a tech scene and more of an academic scene, but this
can only be for the better!

------
quickthrower2
A North England uni town. Warwick perhaps?

------
jnmandal
Athens, Greece is a pretty decent bet.

------
tartoran
Cluj, Romania

------
crypto-jeronimo
How about Calafou in Catalonia?

[1] [https://calafou.org/en](https://calafou.org/en)

[2] [http://www.sustainable-
communities.eu/postcapitalistcalafou/](http://www.sustainable-
communities.eu/postcapitalistcalafou/)

[3] [https://cooperativa.cat/en/](https://cooperativa.cat/en/)

------
sabman
Lisbon, Porto, Berlin, Leipzig

------
psinger
Vienna

------
tgrzinic
Zagreb, Berlin, Vienna?

------
lalit10368
Go to Bangalore, India.

------
northfoxz2015
Taiwan. come and see

------
moinnadeem
Honestly, I think Cambridge MA may give you that environment.

~~~
ryanSrich
Median home price in Cambridge is $800k. Certainly cheaper than the bay, but I
wouldn’t consider that cheap by any stretch.

------
defaultprimate
Huntsville, AL

------
your-nanny
Roanoke, VA

------
ArthurOff
Edinburgh

------
ShirsenduK
The Internet!

------
sonnyblarney
In North America I would vote Montreal. It's 1/2 price of most American cities
and 2x funner and cooler than almost any of them. LA and NYC have tons of
cool, but they are expensive and doing fun stuff is generally expensive. Not
so Montreal. Mtl has way more going on than even SF ever had back in the day,
and it's much bigger than Austin, Boulder/Colorado Springs etc. etc.. During
the summer, Montreal has an unbelievable amount of stuff to do. Carnivals,
festivals, just jammed back to back, overlapping one another all summer.

More students per capita than anywhere (depending on how you define 'city'
because of course Boston is a big one, but Mtl has 5 Unis _right down town_
within a few Km of each other).

And 1/2 of the city is French, and it's like being in another country.

It has an intellectual/creative tradition from French culture, also, it's
actually a global leader in AI, and not just one of those cities making
pompous statements: UMtl has the largest AI research facility in North
America, and $100M in spending announced, and ElementAI has raised hundreds of
millions so this is no joke.

But the winters are very cold. And salaries lag. And taxes are high.
Healthcare is universal and you will get service ... but it's not as good as
in the US when you are covered.

~~~
blocked_again
How easy is to get a job in Montreal if I am not from North America and don't
have a Visa or PR?

~~~
sonnyblarney
If you are an American it's trivial if you have a technical degree. You get a
TN visa at the border and can renew for up to 6 years.

~~~
blocked_again
I am not an American.

~~~
sonnyblarney
It's probably easier than moving to the US, it's a points system, much easier
if you have a job and a technical degree, but not trivial either. We have
quite a lot of immigration.

~~~
chrisper
I heard that the taxes are quite high in Canada and so is the cost of living.

Can you shed some light on this?

~~~
otalp
I did the math for Toronto(which is more expensive than Montreal).

For a typical software engineer, taxes take away 25% of gross pay in Ontario
while it's over 30% in California and New York. Cost of living is much less(by
30-40% if you rent) in Toronto compared to Cali/New York. Of course, you will
also earn 40% less in USD. So it about evens out

~~~
localtalent
From what I've experienced, this is rapidly becoming untrue - CoL in Toronto
has become very high, friends are paying comparable to what I paid in NYC but
salaries are definitely lower. They're paying in CAD what I paid in USD, but
are earning 20-30% less. Food is also more expensive (particularly eating
out), on the whole, than NYC.

Most new construction apartments are quite small, and the older, larger ones
command a significant premium. You can move out of the downtown core (to North
York, Scarborough, etc) but then you're committed to a long commute on the
slow TTC or sitting in traffic on the 401.

MTL is much cheaper, but salaries also lag even further.

~~~
otalp
According to numbeo[1] which crowdsources data, groceries and restaurants are
20% cheaper(adjusted for currency) in Toronto, but of course the salary is
more than 20% lower, which might explain your experience. The real kicker is
the rent, while Toronto rent is definitely increasing, it is nowhere close to
New York City levels, and most sources do say you have to pay 50% more for an
equivalent apartment in NYC.

Also according to my calculations from the data on numbeo, the equivalent of
(pre-tax) $135,000 USD in NYC is $110,000 CAD in Toronto. It is of course
easier to get 135k in NYC than 110k in Toronto, but the difference isn't
nearly as big as the CAD/USD differences and wage gap makes it seem. And if
you can get a job in the Waterloo-Kitchenner area, CoL of course plummets.
Freelancing for clients in the US or working remotely also has great
advantages.

[1][https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-
living/compare_cities.jsp?cou...](https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-
living/compare_cities.jsp?country1=United+States&country2=Canada&city1=New+York%2C+NY&city2=Toronto&tracking=getDispatchComparison)

------
Hydraulix989
Ithaca, NY

------
mikeloden
Zürich

~~~
stagas
12-15 euro for a kebab. They must be seasoning everything with gold there. But
it's a nice city if you manage to live there and its expensiveness works
generally as a quality filter so most people are educated and smart.

~~~
expertentipp
The expensiveness is as well an oligarch-, and is-family-of-a-dictator-filter.

------
mychael
Brooklyn

~~~
tartoran
Brooklyn is expensive

~~~
mychael
I disagree. You can live like a king in many parts of Brooklyn for cheap
compared to the Bay Area.

~~~
tartoran
Brooklyn is cool for the culture but it's expensive , you live cramped,in old
buildings and crappy conditions, the transportation is a mess(L train
shutdown, etc). If you pay the money you could live in a nice area of
Brooklyn, but the point here was about cheap/afordable for everybody,as in
other intellectuals can afford and not live from paycheck to paycheck

------
anon7429
It depends on where one is at in life. I would move to such a place to retire,
but not just starting out.

Prague is relatively cheap.

Also, some of the college towns in the US if they're not nestled within major
metros.

Tokyo, SF, NYC, London, Moscow, etc. are where the action is at: for people
whom can compete and afford a lifestyle unsustainable for anyone else.

------
hiseopro
[https://www.sehzadi.com/](https://www.sehzadi.com/)

------
TalentedIndia
Nice

------
YorkshireSeason

       81 Nobel Laureates
    

This is misleading, because it falsely counts winners of the "The Sveriges
Riksbank Prize in Economic Sciences Prize in Economic Sciences" as a Nobel
price. Alfred Nobel did _not_ donate a price for economics. The Sveriges
Riksbank (= bank of the swedish empire) created this price (against the
explicit wishes of the Nobel foundation [1]) in order to 'cash' in on the
reputation of Nobel price. This is well-known and it is most likely that an
institution that false counts winners of the Sveriges Riksbank as Nobel price
winners is doing this to mislead the audience.

[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nobel_Memorial_Prize_in_Econom...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nobel_Memorial_Prize_in_Economic_Sciences#Controversies_and_criticisms)

~~~
alphakappa
Seems to be a technical distinction without a difference though. Same amount
of money, announced at the same time, awarded at the same ceremony, and just
as prestigious. Sure, it’s an expansion of the original prize, but that
shouldn’t take away from the fact that for anyone in the world, the awardee is
for all practical purposes a Nobel prize winner.

~~~
YorkshireSeason
This is true but orthogonal to my point. You talk about facts, my point was
normative.

More precisely my speech act was performative: I'm leading by example, because
I hope that others will copy my behaviour and speak up whenever somebody
falsely calls winners of the _Bank of the Swedish Empire_ a Nobel price
winner. The best case outcome is that eventually the false prestige will be
eroded away. (Compare with the Nobel Price for Literature and Peace, they are
both widely regarded as jokes and nobody cares -- or worse in case of the
Peace price.)

Anyway, sorry for this tangent, I don't want to derail the thread, the main
subject of which is of great interest to me.

~~~
mlevental
no one cares about any of those prizes except the institutions that care about
them. you can't take the prestige off of an institutionally legitimated prize
by talking at people (and you are talking at people not to)

