
Leaked Zynga Memo Justifies Copycat Strategy - azazo
http://www.forbes.com/sites/insertcoin/2012/02/01/leaked-zynga-memo-justifies-copycat-strategy/
======
plinkplonk
The interesting thing about the Zynga approach is not the copying but the
hypocrisy

From the memo

"A few of you have asked how our approach to genres relates to the situation
we faced with Vostu. There are rules of engagement in our industry. Companies
have to respect each other’s legal and IP ownership rights in the form of
copyrights and trademarks. In the case of Vostu, you can see for yourself that
Vostu crossed the line and chose to use our copyrighted IP and artwork. That’s
different than competing to build the best product or out-innovate us in the
City category."

So copying others artwork is ok when Zynga does it to others, but not when
others do it to them.

See "Zynga stole everything they are suing us for Says Vostu"
[http://www.businessinsider.com/vostu-zynga-stole-
everything-...](http://www.businessinsider.com/vostu-zynga-stole-everything-
its-suing-us-for-2011-7)

------
prbuckley
This is sure to be down voted but here I go anyway... Doesn't this just
indicate that having distribution is the most important element of the gaming
market? It isn't enough to have a great game or design if you can't win at
distribution.

~~~
billpatrianakos
I'm not going to downvote you (disagreement isn't any cause for a downvote)
but what you're saying still rubs me the wrong way. Yeah, Zynga's success does
show that distribution counts for the majority of gaming success but you say
it like what they're doing is okay. That came off to me like "Yeah they steal,
but whatever it's the distribution that counts anyway so it doesn't matter who
they rip off". At least that's what I heard. Is Zynga really deserving of what
they have? I don't care how much logic and economics you throw at the issue,
we're dealing with people here. People aren't markets, margins, profits,
distribution channels or anything else. They're flesh and blood and what Zynga
does is not okay. The guys who they're ripping off are the ones deserving of
all the money Zynga is making off them.

This doesn't _just_ indicate that great game design takes a back seat to
distribution, it promotes the idea that the fine line between plagiarism and
inspiration doesn't exist and that they're one and the same. Businesses that
operate like Zynga aren't new but what's new, at least to me, is seeing such a
business, despite the criticism it gets, become such a media darling. They had
Pinkus on the Today show or some other morning show the other day making him
look like he's some genius mythical Zuckerberg type. Businesses with the rip
off model are often successful as there's a sucker born every minute but I've
never seen one get praise like Zynga as if they're doing something that's one
iota innovative.

~~~
prbuckley
I don't agree ethically with what Zynga's strategy is but I would not go so
far as to say...

"The guys who they're ripping off are the ones deserving of all the money
Zynga is making off them."

Zynga outsourced being innovative to the market and focused their resources on
building distribution. You have to work hard to build distribution and it is
an important part of a business strategy. It is not enough to just design a
great game and expect it to be a huge business success. It might be a huge
creative success but that is different from being a business success.

Lets use Mcdonald's as an example (I am not a fan of their food but I think
they illustrate a business that is built on distribution not quality product).
People were making hamburgers before Mcdonalds, no innovation in the product.
The value of the Mcdonalds business is in the vast network of restaurants that
they built to deliver their product. Does the person who made the first
hamburger deserve all the money that Mcdonalds is making? I would say no.

I think a lot of people on HN ignore the importance of the simple fact that
distribution is a competitive advantage in business and it is something you
have to work hard for. I think Zynga is taking advantage of a resource they
worked hard to build, their distribution.

~~~
ashishgandhi
This model would leave no incentive for anyone to innovate because the big
bullies will take your lunch anyway.

Hence, intellectual property protection (or whatever legal term is right
here).

If the current framework can't penalize Zynga for ripping off someone else's
hard work, I would say the system is broken for this use case at minimum.

There's a line between inspiration and stealing, and I would say Zynga isn't
on the right side of such a line in this case.

Apple, when launched the iPod (could take many Apple examples but this is from
the letter) didn't make a more-or-less copy of an existing successful product.
Took inspiration from the idea of portable digital music and took it to the
next level. Significantly better product.

Google didn't copy Yahoo!, seriously now! They took the idea of searching for
pages and took it to the next level. Significantly better product.

To say they copied is like saying anyone who invents a new dish has copied the
very first cooked meal in history. Seriously? People have just gotten amazing
at gaming the system than playing the game.

------
fragsworth
Zynga's strategy is probably not sustainable. Hear me out:

The company that made the original game normally has enough time on the market
to accumulate most of the users that are worth accumulating via open-market
advertisements. It is likely that they hit "market saturation" prior to Zynga
being able to clone the game.

Zynga has a massive existing userbase. When they clone an existing title,
they're able to cheaply migrate some portion of their existing users over to
the new title through cross-promotion. This is an effective way to retain
users, but there is a significant problem: The original company (probably)
already hit market saturation. The result, for Zynga, is that they can't
really use this cloned game to grow their existing userbase. They can only use
it to retain some users.

Fortunately for the original company, they aren't hurt all that much by
Zynga's strategy - as long as they had enough time on the market before their
game was cloned, the net effect of Zynga cloning their game isn't all that
negative. The users that play Zynga's version tend to already have been Zynga
users, and would only ever have played the Zynga game.

Unfortunately for Zynga, if this is their company vision, they will never grow
their userbase. They will only ever struggle to keep hold of their existing
users. They need to take risks and build unique, interesting games or they
will face a slow death.

~~~
benologist
The problem with that is people don't care about clones, they care about
quality. If you love tower defense games you are going to love a heap of them
that are more similar than different. If you love physics puzzle games then
there's a virtual orgy of same-games out there waiting for you (eg
<http://physicsgames.net/> ... there's like 3 or 4 games there, done dozens of
times).

All Zynga has to do is get a same-game in the charts or viral and they get new
users.

------
joshu
Horseshit.

The similarity between SimTower/YootTower (same developer/designer!) and
TinyTower is that they both have towers; the differences is basically
everything else. Zynga's game is basically identically TinyTower with no other
elements or changes.

~~~
kevinh
Perhaps not SimTower, but Tiny Tower shares a lot in common with flash game
Corporation Inc[1] by well known flash developer jmtb02, which came along
before it. Nimblebit was called out by drumcowski for doing so[2]. Tiny Tower
isn't really all that original itself (it took the Sim Tower/Corporation Inc.
framework and added social gaming/Skinner's Box type reward to keep people
playing). What does this mean? People steal/borrow/improve upon game ideas all
the time. Is this bad? That depends on your point of view.

For the record, jmtb02 disagreed with some of drumcowski's comments in his
response to drumcowski's response to Nimblebit's message[3].

[1] <http://armorgames.com/play/7348/corporation-inc> [2]
<http://i.imgur.com/ajaYt.jpg> [3] <http://i.imgur.com/eSEt7.jpg>

~~~
joshu
Thanks for reminding me about jmbt02, his stuff is great.

------
thesash
This reminds me of the whole Curebit debacle from this weekend. Is outright
copying of design/creative/game mechanics illegal? Maybe, maybe not. Is it
wrong? Hell yes!

What makes me really sad is thinking about how many talented engineers and
designers there are working at companies like Zynga, doing a kick-ass job of
building clones for companies with no values.

~~~
pfraze
I'm not sure it's that black & white. I don't love the argument I'm about to
make, so feel free to counter it:

The only tangible I can sense with content (code, media, etc) is how it's
provided, and that means that service is the entirety of our business. Zynga
isn't producing original content, but they are producing a valuable service.
Do I think it's ethical? No way. But should it be illegal? Not unless you want
to limit how we can use data.

~~~
Lazare
Certainly the world is full of things which are wrong, but should not be
illegal because the "solution" would be worse than the problem it tried to
solve. ( _cough_ SOPA/PIPA _cough_ )

In this case, what Zynga is doing is copying game design. And in a perfect
world...I think it should be perfectly legal to copy game design, because the
alternative is software patents, and do I really need to spell out why that
sucks?

But it's still ethically and morally wrong, and we should name and shame
Zynga, their developers, and their enablers. How about a boycott of Amazon
until they yank Zynga's hosting? (And yes, I realize their isn't the slightest
hope of such a thing...)

~~~
_delirium
I don't think the _only_ alternative is software patents; if the copying is
close enough, it can infringe copyright as well. For example, some novelists
have lost lawsuits over cloning novels, when they wrote knock-off versions
that came way too close to the originals. You can write a parody of _Dune_ ,
for example, because parody/satire is separately protected, and you can rip
off the basic premise (a book about a desert planet with spice and giant
worms, etc.), because that can't be patented. But you can't write a direct,
scene-for-scene ripoff with a 1:1 correspondence of characters and action,
even if you didn't literally copy the prose in doing so.

------
ryanjmo
There are tons of comments saying that copying these games is wrong and
imoral, but no one is explaining why it is so wrong and imoral.

Please explain to me why, because I literally don't get why it is so wrong and
imoral.

Disclaimer: I don't work for Zynga, but I _do_ copy the shit out of stuff.

~~~
billpatrianakos
Really? Okay, well is it okay to paraphrase someone else's thesis paper and
submit it as your own? You've changed every word but did none of the research.
That's kind of how Zynga operates. When you plagiarized the thesis you typed
every word into your text editor, obtained the original work, transcribed it
as your own, printed it and handed it in but really, you didn't do the work.
Zynga codes the games and changes the graphics ever so slightly then publishes
the games but they don't do the real work. They're like every other scum
developer that blatantly leeches off the success of another, barely making an
effort to make it their own.

~~~
ryanjmo
But doing what you described with the paper, certainly would be considered
cheating by a university. But, what is morally wrong about that? What makes
the university rules, the correct rules to act by? Certainly, if you choose to
go to a University you are agreeing to follow their rules, but outside of
breaking your agreement with the university, what is wrong about that?

Why can't we use other people work to create our own. If someone took my
thesis and turned it in and got an A, I would be psyched for them and happy
they used my work. It doesn't hurt me at all.

~~~
Splines
_Why can't we use other people work to create our own. If someone took my
thesis and turned it in and got an A, I would be psyched for them and happy
they used my work. It doesn't hurt me at all._

The problem is that Zynga isn't operating in a vacuum. Sales lost to Zynga do
hurt someone else.

In the University paper example, how would you feel if the number of A grades
available were limited, and because someone copied a previous year's A-paper,
someone who deserved an A now received a B? What if that person was you?

There's a spectrum between inspiration and impersonation, and Zynga is clearly
on the impersonation side. IMO, it's extremely disingenuous of Pincus to try
to pass of his game as somehow derivative of Sim Tower or Yoot Tower. I'm
surprised he wrote a memo at all, considering that Zynga employees aren't
stupid - they know what brings in the money, and it isn't coming up with fun,
novel, interesting games that are built upon the shoulders of giants.

~~~
ryanjmo
So would it be ok to copy a site/game that doesn't have much traction if you
have a better distribution channel and can get the copy traction?

In this case the original creator isn't hurt at all and actually may benefit.
Would you consider this ok?

If it is ok, where do you draw the line?

So far from people's answers to my question "what is so morally wrong with
this?" I do not think the reaction that it is so wrong is as cut and dry issue
as we want it to be. But, if I am missing something obvious, I _would_
actually really appreciate the insight!

~~~
Splines
_So would it be ok to copy a site/game that doesn't have much traction if you
have a better distribution channel and can get the copy traction?

In this case the original creator isn't hurt at all and actually may benefit.
Would you consider this ok?_

Generall, IMO, if you're literally cloning someone else's game (or other
content), it would be very difficult to justify. I think the only time I could
see this working is if you're bringing the cloned game to another platform
that is not being served by the original creator, with the original creator's
blessing.

 _So far from people's answers to my question "what is so morally wrong with
this?" I do not think the reaction that it is so wrong is as cut and dry issue
as we want it to be. But, if I am missing something obvious, I would actually
really appreciate the insight!_

Most people wish that effort=reward, and it is aggravating to see Zynga do
well in spite of their apparent lack of effort, at least in the game design
department. What makes it worse is that at this stage of Zynga's existence,
they have the resources to create original IP. One could conclude that their
game design decisions are driven purely by a backwards-looking perspective,
instead of a forward-looking one.

------
earbitscom
I'm still not sure when this forum switched to thinking that infringing on IP
(in this case, not even illegally) is immoral. If I didn't have better things
to do I'd love to cross-check all these comments and see how many people
previously said that copying bits is the natural order of things and should
just be embraced.

~~~
mikeash
From what I've seen, the message here and in many other places is a pretty
consistent one that unauthorized copying for personal use is OK, and
unauthorized copying for commercial gain is not. Have I missed something?

~~~
earbitscom
Yes, you've missed the relatively consistent support of sites like Pirate Bay,
which commercially benefit from the distribution of copyrighted material.

~~~
mikeash
After thinking about it more, I believe it may be more about attribution than
commercial gain. If you violate copyright but don't misrepresent the thing
you're copying, people are generally fine with it. If you rip off all the
labels and put your own name on it instead, people are much less forgiving.

------
mbrzuzy
Didn't Zynga sue some chinese game that was basically a copy of farmville? And
here they are saying there is nothing wrong with copying...

~~~
jmaygarden
The article refers to a lawsuit against a Brazilian company.

~~~
mbrzuzy
Yea you're right. Here is an article I found regarding it.

[http://venturebeat.com/2011/06/16/zynga-sues-brazilian-
copyc...](http://venturebeat.com/2011/06/16/zynga-sues-brazilian-copycat-
vostu-for-copyright-infringement/)

I have no words for Zynga's hypocrisy.

------
ansy
Disclaimer: I don't use any Zynga products nor have I ever.

With regard to the situation, I don't think Zynga gets nearly enough credit
for its success. It is not that easy to copy software and get the same degree
of success. Yet Zynga routinely copies and gets greater success. There is
something there that deserves attention.

Zynga has operational chops that should not be underestimated. Whatever it is
doing is cutting edge and enough of an advantage Zynga can even flourish doing
nothing but blatantly derivative designs.

Eventually, those operational practices will spread to other game studios that
do original designs and it will be harder for Zynga to do as well. But much
like McDonalds, Zynga could enjoy its market superiority for a long time to
come as long as it continues to innovate operationally even if it lags
creatively.

~~~
extension
It's not easy to crack a safe, but doing so does not entitle you to the
contents.

------
nixle
As a small business owner ( 3 peoples) working our asses of trying to publish
a game for tablets, I can't help but hate Zynga for having unlimited resources
and no regards for those that actually make an effort. Here's to their stock
plummeting and that douche living in a box.

------
andr3w321
Isn't this a case of the small app developers not iterating quickly enough? If
you look at the side by side screen shots the Zynga graphics DO look
significantly better than the original game. Isn't the lesson here that if you
do somehow manage to make a hit game you better reinvest as much as you can as
quickly as you can back into future versions of the game to keep it as fresh
and good looking as possible?

How many updates has angry birds made since their first release? They're
always releasing new levels and updates.

I'm not defending what Zynga does in any way, but success brings copycats and
first to market does not guarantee dominance of that market by any means.

------
shawndrost
Interesting story! Too bad the comments are full of unadorned, witless vitrol.
I don't even mind if you hate Zynga and its employees -- could you just not
tell me? It's not very interesting.

~~~
joering1
maybe its not to you, but if users/observers stop judging what they use or
see, one day everyone will be ripping off (not "getting inspired", but copying
or stealing) each other, because, well noone says a bad word so its a good
thing to do.

------
Apocryphon
This is the sort of thing that leads to companies resorting to patents or
copyrights.

------
moondowner
What is sad is that developers who make Android/iOS/Flash/Whatever games see
how Zynga is making money and is copying other people's games, and they start
to justify this and eventually start doing it too.

------
kmfrk
It must be nice for companies to Google and Facebook to always have one
company to top them all in the category of unrepentant corporate spawns of
Satan.

~~~
aaronblohowiak
Walmart? McDonald's? Goldman? Halliburton? Blackwater?

~~~
kmfrk
Since when was Hacker News not implicitly about software companies?

------
n9com
I found the whole Tiny Tower situation pretty redicolous. Tiny Tower clearly
copied a lot of concepts from games in the genre before it.

------
EricDeb
What would happen if the company that created tiny tower sued Zynga? Do they
have any legal argument?

------
strags
For a "leaked memo", this sure reads a lot like a press release.

~~~
Splines
Personally, I think Pincus wrote the memo intending for it to be leaked. I'd
like to be wrong, but I'd be surprised if somewhere there's a Zynga engineer
truly surprised that the design of their game _isn't_ fresh and new.

I do wonder if there's any internal tension between design and development -
surely there's someone there thinking "We're ripping of game X. This can't be
right."

------
billpatrianakos
Zynga is knowingly spewing BS about their products. They know full well
they're stealing and we all think they suck for it. Personally, I'd be a
cheerleader for them if they were just honest about their business model. It's
their attempt to even try to deny the obvious that I think is creating such
animosity toward them even more than their douchebagery

~~~
ambler0
In particular, it's his use of the word "innovate" that enrages me.

------
kenrik
I'm so glad my gut told me not to buy stock in Zynga.

------
Alcedes
There's a simple solution since this will be a freemium game. Have every Tiny
Tower player download the Zynga junk and rate it 1 star. That'll send a clear
message to any players and give a nice middle finger to Zynga. We can call the
process go daddying an app. A more amusing tactic would be for Nimblebit to
offer tower bucks to do the deed. That would be a lot of 1-star reviews...

~~~
chii
But then the zynga players would vote it back up. And guess who has more
users?

