
Spain jails Catalan separatist leaders, protesters take to streets - elies
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-spain-politics-catalonia/spain-jails-leaders-of-catalan-secession-bid-for-sedition-idUSKBN1WS0RX
======
kypro
Secession should be a liberty afforded to all people. There is no excuse for
forcing a group of people to live under a political system they disapprove of.

And in response to some of the commenters in this thread: of course an
independence movement is going to be violent, especially when the state is
trying to oppress it. The independence movements in the US, NI, and India were
violent too, not because they were wrong but mostly because of mixed public
opinion and an oppressive state.

Perhaps if we legally recognised the right to secession and offered citizens a
democratic route to secession then violence wouldn't be necessary. Secession
movements are going to happen regardless of their legal status.

~~~
JustFinishedBSG
That's just not possible though. Can I just secede all alone by myself?

~~~
MrBuddyCasino
Why make this argument, every time. Its not made in good faith and obviously
nobody is discussing one-person states. Its always about a large group of
people sharing an identity, without having their own country.

~~~
rumanator
> Why make this argument, every time.

Because it underlines the fallacy of appealing to an alleged right to cecede.

> Its not made in good faith and obviously nobody is discussing one-person
> states.

Strawman, and one that's based on a disingenuous premise. It's quite clear
that the argument is on whether to draw the line of when a minority has your
so called right to cecede. You already admit that your so called right to
cecede is absurd and ridiculous if only one person wants out. How about two?
Do you believe a couple has the right to cecede? How about two dozen persons?
Two hundred? Do you believe a couple of appartment blocks have the right to
cecede? Or is the whole idea and concept entirely absurd, and only pointed out
as a self-serving tautology?

~~~
deltron3030
The right to secede is important because it's democratic by nature, the
majority who runs the state has to arrange with the minorities to not lose
them. And if this arrangement is successful there are no rational reasons to
secede. I'd even say that countries that don't allow secessions aren't true
democracies at the lowest level.

~~~
rumanator
> The right to secede is important because it's democratic by nature

It really isn't, as it purposely excludes portions of the electorate that
don't support the idea.

------
hilbert42
It's nearly 100 years since the matter of Catalan independence was first
mooted and 80 years since the end of the Spanish Civil War and matters
surrounding the formation of an autonomous Catalonian State remain far from
any real resolution. This just isn't just a political dispute that if given
sufficient time will eventually dissipate, rather it's a fundamental one of
cultural and language differences and the heavy-handedness of the Spanish
state is only making matters worse.

In a world where modern democracies everywhere are coming under increasing
stress because state authorities are increasingly breaking the long-held
covenants of trust that bind a state and its citizenry, these outrageous
sentences only make a further mockery out of the law. Ultimately, cool heads
soon need to resolve this stand-of or inevitably it will lead to further civil
disobedience and possibly worse. And one must never forget that the last time
this happened in 1936-'39 many hundreds of thousands died over the issue.

In the modern Europe of today, borne out of the horrific chaos of WWII (and
its prelude the Spanish Civil War), there should be no place where people
should be subject to such authoritarian rule as they have been subjected to
here.

It's now time for Europe to pressure Spain to finally give the people of
Catalonia both their autonomy and freedom. Catalonia has been in Spain's
chains far long enough.

~~~
iagovar
You have a point, but I think you miss when you say this was a product of
authoritarian rule. Catalonia is basically like an US State. They have control
of their education, healthcare, police etc, they have their own parliament,
and so on. Catalonia already has autonomy.

There has been a lot of mistakes on how to handle this situation but Catalan
leaders made a calculated decision and forced the situation. You can express
any idea, demonstrate, make your own party, but you it's not reasonable to
expect that, if you not only break the law, but try to seize a large portion
of a country and its resources, and just ignore the will of about half of the
population in that very region, the spanish state does nothing.

And I'm not even mentioning a shitload of things that are also going on in
this issue that makes it way more complicated, typical in this multi-layered
spanish power plays.

~~~
capableweb
> You have a point, but I think you miss when you say this was a product of
> authoritarian rule. Catalonia is basically like an US State. They have
> control of their education, healthcare, police etc, they have their own
> parliament, and so on. Catalonia already has autonomy.

It's wrong to say that Catalonia is basically a US state, since US is a
federation while Spain is a unitary state. This means the central government
can overrule whatever the communities decide on. They don't have the same
authority over ruling, as the central power has in the case of Spain.

Then I suppose one of the bigger issues remain in answering "Is Catalonia
autonomous enough?" and "Who decides how autonomous Catalonia should be?"

~~~
hilbert42
_" You can express any idea, demonstrate, make your own party, but you it's
not reasonable to expect that, if you not only break the law, but try to seize
a large portion of a country and its resources, and just ignore the will of
about half of the population in that very region, the spanish state does
nothing."_

I generally agree you in both practice and principle and in a democracy
democratic processes say what laws or rules apply. And this is how things
normally work in stable democracies. The trouble is that these days
democracies are coming under considerable and increasing strain from various
competing interests whose worldviews are essentially irreconcilable. Whilst
this has always been so to some extent, in the past a 'reasonable' government
could evaluate competing interests then come up with effective and acceptable
laws based on utilitarian principles. Nowadays that's far from easy—and it's
becoming increasingly so for many reasons that are too complex to detail here
expect to say that attitudes and norms within societies have changed, and
together with improved communications, internationalism and changes over the
past 40 or so years in the way capitalism plays a role in society have had
much to do with it.

At the risk of oversimplifying these complex issues, here's a few examples.
Let's say a government is under pressure by a majority of citizens to regulate
the bad behavior of certain types corporations but the corporations
strenuously fight the proposal on the grounds of loss of jobs, loss of
profits, interference in the free market and violations of international trade
agreements, etc. so a stalemate ensues and thus nothing or little is done. In
a previous era, the issues about 'free markets' and 'violations of
international trade agreements' would have played a much lesser role and back
then corporations effectively had less influence on government policy, thus
governments would have found it easier to regulate. These days, there are so
many instances where governments have failed to regulate that the citizenry
has a justifiable right to be annoyed and to assume the democratic process has
failed it. _[Incidentally, one such matter has again made it into today 's HN,
that's the huge price Big Pharma is charging for drugs—that government has
failed to act for so long is symptomatic of the problem:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21250491](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21250491)]
_

Another is the rise of identity politics. Whatever one's views on this are it
is hard to disagree with the fact that nowadays it is increasingly difficult
to govern a country where its citizens hold so few views in common. Clearly, a
society wherein a majority hold common views and interests makes governance
easier but today this structure has broken down to the extent that governing
for all is very difficult, especially so in a democracy. Once only four or
five decades ago, those within a society were much more homogeneous in their
views than they are today. Back then a majority of citizens held similar views
as they were bound together by a common culture or race, or by religion and or
by isolation from other societies any or all of which would have steered the
society in certain directions. Today, the parallel between the governance of a
democracy and the parable from Aesop's fable* _The Man, The Boy, and The
Donkey_ of _' try to please all and you will please none'_ is truer than ever.
I would add that in this era where one's rights and sense of entitlement trump
the Rousseauian notion of the _General Will of the Citizenry_ then governments
are damned if they do or they don't.

 _Quo vadis?_ We should look to history for examples of what happens when
citizenries consider their governance has gone beyond the pale. All too often,
we see that when a majority of citizens hold such high levels of mistrust in
and discontent with their government then it often boils over into an
uprising, insurrection or revolution, and inevitably, it does not end
well—even for the 'winning' side. Moreover, we've many notable examples whose
outcomes we actually accept (and often respect) as we live with and abide by
the rules and laws they've since engendered, notably the French Revolution,
English Civil War, American War of Independence and the Russian Revolutions of
1905 and 1917 just to name a few.

Sure, the outcome of every one of these social upheavals was political change
but the cost in human terms was enormous: they were all brutal and bloody
events that for many thousands of citizens ended in tragedy and or death. I
would suggest that no reasonable person would ever recommend these ways of
achieving change unless is was absolutely the last resort.

That leaves the issue of what do we do short of revolution when democracy
breaks down to the point where effective governance is lost; for, as I see it,
that's where those of us who live in democracies are headed right now. In
almost every country, both democratic and totalitarian, we are seeing many
laws enacted that are increasingly authoritarian by nature and in their
extent, all of which inexorably result in fewer freedoms being available for
individuals. Frankly, I consider that living in a state where every citizen,
year after year, has less and less autonomy to act as very worrisome and quite
frightening—especially so when there is seemingly no end in sight and where
politicians consistently fail to provide both sufficient explanations and
justifications of such laws.

It's in this light that I suggested that Catalonia be set free of its Spanish
chains (irrespective of Spanish laws) as this is probably the most efficacious
and pragmatic solution—at least in the short term. It too is likely to be the
best solution when it comes to minimizing future violence and bloodshed, which
as history amply demonstrates, is highly likely if the matter continues to
fester. Essentially, in respect of Catalonia, Spain should collectively pull
its head in and accept that it has lost some national sovereignty—after all;
it's something Spain has had to do many times over the centuries as the
Spanish Empire crumbled so by now it ought to know how to manage the loss
successfully.

The matter of how we citizens should manage our democracies in the longer-term
should be foremost in the thoughts of every citizen right now. We citizens not
only must re-establish trust between those whom we elect to govern us but also
forge new and effective covenants that will be the basis of all future and
ongoing law. We should not expect this process to be easy or quick as
entrenched power-hungry bureaucrats and implacable governments will no doubt
fight us citizens every inch of the way.

-

* [https://fablesofaesop.com/the-man-the-boy-and-the-donkey.htm...](https://fablesofaesop.com/the-man-the-boy-and-the-donkey.html)

~~~
iagovar
Look, I'm a sociologist so I totally get where you are coming from, but your
thougts are mostly tangential.

Catalonia can enact his own laws, and it does so. There's very little
substance if you say "being freed from the chains of Spain". There isn't any
massive difference in the understanding of the world between catalans and the
rest of the peninsula. You could pimpoint some laws here and there, and some
simbols, but it's pretty much it. There's no systemic repression of Catalans
of any sorts because of speaking or being Catalan. I know that an independence
supporter will disagree and is willing to paste thousands of links here, but
IMO from the big picture there's no much substance. They are not loosing
autonomy as you said, as it's been happening quite the opposite.

There's a lot of stuff happening daily and a lot of propaganda going on. The
Catalan government is very good at this, and it's difficult to make foreigners
understand how much effort they actually put on this. To give you a glimpse,
yesterday they sent their supporters to occupy the Barcelona airport.
Politicians are not stupid, and they know that place is guarded by national
police and the military. Some time later, as it seemed such actions wouldn't
yield any PR material, they've sent their own police. That's the videos
foreigners have seen in their media. Obviously, the majority of them don't
have to know that Catalans have their own police, and they were sent there
coordinated by their own government, that it wasn't spontaneous. And most
media won't clarify it.

Today, their explanation for internal consumption is that they had to send the
Mossos d'esquadra (Catalan police) because they had to "protect the
demonstrators from themselves", they were afraid to be accused fo sedition
again and some other BS, that of course will be noise tomorrow.

I know there's enough speculation in the last two paragraphs, but I worked for
them for some time, so I know how they think. And that's my take on it
because, if it wasn't for that, it would be absurd to send your people
somewhere and then beat em just because.

And this stuff is happening on a Weekly basis.

Now, you think the most pragmatic solution would be just accept "the fact"
that Spain lost Catalonia, and that it has to become another country. Now,
what happens with half the catalans that want to remain spanish? Do we just
forget about them? What if they become violent? What would do the Catalan
Government if they become their own country and half its population does the
same they have been doing? What if they win elections and want to rejoin? (I
forgot, that wouldn't be possible under the new catalan law, they wanted to
make parties against secession illegal), are we going to split and join
multiple times because of this?

I mean, there's a lot to put in a cost/benefit analysis and from my POV is
unclear at best. There's no clear solution to avoid conflict even if we
splitted to day and we had it in good terms. And I'm not even mentioning that
the most probably economic outcome for Catalonia would be to suffer massively
due to loosing it's status with the EU, not being anymore the preferred port
for trading with Spain and basically loosing it's status as an asset for
Spain.

It's natural for everyone to try to frame events in a local setting, but take
in account that you are not just witnessing two ants fighting for a piece a
bread, but organizations with a lot of power and resources, that actively try
to shape your opinion on the issue.

~~~
capableweb
> Catalonia can enact his own laws, and it does so.

Sorry for just pointing out one thing, but it was what you started with so I
feel the need to correct it.

Yes, Catalonia can enact their own laws. But even if they do, Spain reserve
the right to override them, with what they feel like. Catalans I've spoken to,
have expressed this to be a pain point, especially when the relations to
Madrid are poor.

Madrid can always regain control over Catalonia according to it's laws, and
them having this ability, makes peoples drive to independence stronger.

~~~
iagovar
> with what they feel like.

Catalan (and other nationalists) are key to form governments on Spain,
specially the last two or three legislatures, so this is highly debatable at
best. Some laws that were not passed/revoked in the central parliament have
been precisely because of the vote of such parties.

A party can be both in its autonomous and central parliament. And this has
been the case for decades.

I know what independence supporters feel about, but there's no substance to an
argument where Catalans are ignored or overruled from the central parliament
because of any sort of authoritarian rule, because they are integral and
important part of how power is distributed and managed in such institution.

~~~
capableweb
I try to understand both sides without siding too much with either.

"there's no substance to an argument where Catalans are ignored or overruled
from the central parliament because of any sort of authoritarian rule" leads
me to believe that you're not thinking the same way as me regarding
understanding both sides.

Image if the EU Council could, at any time, invoke a article to take control
over what the member states themselves should decide over. This is what
Catalans feel right now is happening.

Any autonomy that Catalans currently enjoy, is devolved power from Madrid.
Just having the possibility for Madrid to at any time suspend the autonomy of
(what they see as) their own state, makes them uneasy, and we're seeing the
result of that uneasiness coming to the surface more and more recently.

~~~
iagovar
> Image if the EU Council could, at any time, invoke a article to take control
> over what the member states themselves should decide over. This is what
> Catalans feel right now is happening.

Such thing has happened, but it's not the current state of affairs. The
central state took control of the Catalan institutions until elections were
held, not past that.

And of course such thing didn't happen in a vacuum. Not to mention that this
is a pretty standard procedure in most countries.

> leads me to believe that you're not thinking the same way as me regarding
> understanding both sides

I can understand why you think that. I have been following this issue for the
last, maybe, ten years. I've worked for politicians in political marketing for
a consultant company so I know how they think. I'm an "insider" to political
propaganda if you like, so I'm not just sitting back watching events like am a
neutral observer.

Thankfully I've moved to another totally different field, but it affected my
ability to read the really deeply, I'd say.

------
flexie
Please remember that only part of the Catalan population participated in the
referendum - mainly the ones that wanted to secede. The result was a huge
majority according to Catalan authorities but turnout was merely 40-something
percent. It's widely understood that voters that wanted to remain didn't
participate.

It is highly questionable whether the independence movement has even 50
percent support. Indications are that the support hovers around 40-something
percent. It was highest in 2013, where it reached 55 percent. Please notice
that this is not close to the super majority which is normally required for
constitutional changes in most democracies.

~~~
JoeAltmaier
That's a pretty self-serving argument. Resorting to the 'silent majority' to
justify disregarding democracy is not very...democratic.

The way Catalan folk showed what they think on this subject, was by voting.
That's pretty fundamental.

~~~
flexie
An independence based on a referendum arranged by separatists and which almost
only separatists participated in, is hardly "pretty fundamental".

Take a look at the support for independence: it's not a majority opinion and
it's getting smaller:

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalan_independence_movement#...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalan_independence_movement#2017_referendum,_Declaration_of_Independence_and_new_regional_elections)

~~~
cududa
Yeah tell that to brexiteers

------
jMyles
I spent some time in Catalonia last year and asked everybody I met (probably
about 5 dozen in all) what they thought of the movement. Most were against it,
and of those who were in favor, there were three distinct flavors:

* People who simply identified as Catalan and wanted to have their own language and culture as a separate political and social unit

* People who were wealthy and had assets to protect from real or perceived looming economic correction in Spain

* People who formerly opposed secession, but were pissed to live in a country with high-profile political prisoners.

It was hard to form a solid takeaway from all this; I'd need many more months
to start to really understand the political dynamics at play.

One thing about which I feel strong and certain, though, is this:

The fact that something is a crime according to the entity claiming
jurisdiction over a given landmass makes it neither right nor inevitable that
people engaging in that thing.

The right to dissolve bonds that arbitrarily obligate people to the whims of a
state to which they don't consent is a real and enduring right.

Whether or not the movement is righteous, it's not OK to jail people for
peacefully (even if disruptively) trying to separate.

~~~
yiyus
Peacefully breaking the law is still breaking the law. Disobeying direct
orders from court can get you in jail, mishandling public funds can get you in
jail, and making official declarations that go against the constitution can
get you in jail. You have all the right to think this is not OK, but it is how
it is.

------
squeezingswirls
12 accused:

* 4 are sentenced for sedition and embezzlement

* 5 for sedition

* 3 for disobedience

Their actions have been judged under the laws of a democratic state but of
course Secessionist propaganda calls it 'Fascism'.

~~~
harperlee
0 people for “trying to vote”

0 people for “their ideas”

0 people for “peaceful demonstration”

Etc. Please read everything about this issue with a grain of salt in both
sides, it is heavily politicized to the point of reality being sidetracked.
Even the prime minister of Scotland, Nicola Sturgeon, showed today grave
misinformation on the ruling through a tweet.

~~~
FDSGSG
So what do you think "sedition" means?

~~~
harperlee
Public uprising against established order. Which is a) something any legal
system prosecutes, and b) something these people did. There is also in Spain a
aggravating case for doing this from a public role, which seems reasonable and
also applies to some of these individuals.

~~~
FDSGSG
Ok, but that's not generally what sedition means

~~~
harperlee
Irrespective of the undertones that you read in the word, that is what they
are being judged for. It has a precise technical meaning in the law. And I’d
like to know if there is any country whatsoever in which public uprising
against the state from a government official, using public funds, and in the
manner carried out by them in this case, is not prosecuted.

~~~
andratwiro
You have to take into account that this is not a military uprising of a few
people, its a pacific protest from politicians who represent almost half of
the Catalan votes.

There are plenty of examples where people have been pardoned in Spain for more
ethically questionable reasons [1]. This, in contrast, is a clear case where
it should be resolved politically, not through the legal system.

[1] [https://civio.es/el-indultometro/2013/05/06/saenz/](https://civio.es/el-
indultometro/2013/05/06/saenz/)

~~~
harperlee
The political pardon must come after the judicial trial, and comes from
different, independent, branches of government.

------
_rrnv
It's quite hard to support freedom fighters around the globe while all along
suppressing peaceful freedom fighters at home. Setting this verdict against
what's happening in HK doesn't put Spain in a good light.

~~~
carlosrg
Are you really comparing a movement to secede from a militaristic communist
dictatorship with no freedom of speech with a movement to secede from a EU
member state with a full democracy? Which freedoms are these "freedom
fighters" missing?

~~~
ryanlol
>Which freedoms are these "freedom fighters" missing?

Freedom of association?

~~~
carlosrg
What?

------
nostrademons
I think separatist movements will be the trend in an increasing number of
regions. The reason many present nation-states exist is so that in the era of
industrial war, outlying eras didn't get rolled by their more technologically
advanced, more productive neighbors. Or alternatively, because they _did_ get
rolled by their neighbors and are now part of the conquering nation-state.

With the world being unipolar for the last 30 years and that sole superpower
being seemingly incapable of winning wars for the last 20, many minority
groups are thinking that's a bad bargain and they'd rather trade security for
self-determination.

~~~
wcarron
> that sole superpower being seemingly incapable of winning wars for the last
> 20

Is it not obvious, at this point, that "winning" the wars are not the goal?
That the wars are used as pretense for endless military presence to serve
geopolitical goals?

~~~
nostrademons
Obvious to me, irrelevant to the groups targeted by these wars.

In the WW2-era, the stakes were literal annihilation: a number of minority
groups were specifically targeted for extermination by the belligerent powers,
and many others were occupied under threat of extermination. Today, the stakes
are that you face random drone strikes and your weddings get blown up. But
there's nothing you can do about this: instead of "if you accept our rule,
we'll let you live", it's "we're not interested in ruling you, die anyway".
When wars are fought to make a point rather than to win, and that point has
nothing to do with you, they're not going to change your behavior. So great
powers and separatist/extremist groups exist in symbiosis, with each
constructing and reinforcing the other in the absence of an external reason
for their existence.

~~~
sigil
> _So great powers and separatist /extremist groups exist in symbiosis._

This theory reminds me of slatestarcodex’s “The Toxoplasma of Rage,”
specifically section V. [https://slatestarcodex.com/2014/12/17/the-toxoplasma-
of-rage...](https://slatestarcodex.com/2014/12/17/the-toxoplasma-of-rage/)

------
username90
I think peaceful secession laws should be codified internationally, it is
ridiculous that people still need to take to violence in order to split a
first world country since the act is illegal. As for size, many of the best
places to live have around 5-10 million people, so I don't see any harm in
splitting out populations of that size. For example, I don't believe that
Norway would be better off today if they were forbidden from splitting from
Sweden 100 years ago. Note that Norway hadn't been an independent country for
500 years at that point, so their situation was very similar to current
Catalonia.

------
bag531
I wonder how the comments would look if this were about China and Hong Kong
instead of Spain and Catalonia.

~~~
yiyus
I guess they would look totally different because both topics are totally
different.

------
aussieguy1234
Since the state will try to thwart any physical referendum vote using
violence, perhaps this could be a good use case for a blockchain election.

Secretly mail everyone a wallet address which they can use to vote on the
blockchain.

Without the threat of violence from the state, more people will vote.

------
raincom
The foundation of laws is coercive. It is one thing to sell the third world
counties that countries like USA are based on rule of law.

Since laws are coercive, whoever has the power (both legal and police) can
jail secession leaders.

------
gerardnll
What a fascist state. Jailing for 9 years civilian leaders that organized
peaceful protests. Shameful. A movement of more than 2 or 3 million of
citizens, that's the way they handle political issues.

~~~
oliverx0
Peaceful protests? You have to be joking. Just look at all the articles of the
violence that took place against the national police trying to maintain order.

~~~
maddy237
You are either misinformed or lying.

[https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/861001/Catalan-
referend...](https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/861001/Catalan-referendum-
Spanish-police-violence-voters)

[https://www.hrw.org/news/2017/10/12/spain-police-used-
excess...](https://www.hrw.org/news/2017/10/12/spain-police-used-excessive-
force-catalonia)

[https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2017/10/catalan-vote-
claims-s...](https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2017/10/catalan-vote-claims-
spanish-police-brutality-probed-171003122547459.html)

[https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-
europe-41463955/cataloni...](https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-
europe-41463955/catalonia-referendum-violence-as-police-block-voting)

[https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/4586709/catalonia-won-right-
in...](https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/4586709/catalonia-won-right-independence-
police-crackdown-protesters/)

------
linuxftw
Political independence for a minority group will never be allowed. The
political boundaries drawn 70-150 years ago must remain perpetually.

~~~
avar
Montenegro, Slovakia and a long list of other countries would like a word with
you[1].

1\.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sovereign_states_by_da...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sovereign_states_by_date_of_formation)

~~~
rossdavidh
One major difference between the former Yugoslavia and Czechoslovakia, is that
in the latter I am led to believe that a majority of the public wanted to stay
one country. The split seems to have been a way to create more posts for
national elites. Ordinary Czechs and Slovaks who I have talked to (admittedly
a very small and anecdotally collected group) don't seem to have had a problem
with staying part of Czechoslovakia.

In the former Yugoslavia I have no direct knowledge of anyone's opinions on
the matter, but I am led to believe that a majority of several of the new
countries was solidly in favor of splitting up.

~~~
levosmetalo
In former Yugoslavio the split is again "enforced" or "allowed" based on the
arbitrary criteria from the past. The only "rule" here were "rule of armed
force" and "interest of the mighty".

Some ethnic group were allowed to have their right to decide in which country
they want to live, some never got that right. In the end that injustice is
what led to the whole bloody conflict.

------
slx26
English translation of the opinion on the case by the UN working group on
arbitrary detention: [ [https://int.assemblea.cat/wp-
content/uploads/2019/06/Working...](https://int.assemblea.cat/wp-
content/uploads/2019/06/WorkingGroupOnArbitraryDetention.Opinion6.2019-1.pdf)
] (original at
[https://www.ohchr.org/Documents/Issues/Detention/Opinions/Se...](https://www.ohchr.org/Documents/Issues/Detention/Opinions/Session84/A_HRC_WGAD_2019_6.pdf))

Summary: they deny the claims of violence, reject the preventive prison (~2
years for those being condemned to prison today) and denounce the lack of
presumption of innocence and an impartial tribunal (119 to 124 and 132 and 133
if you want a quick look).

Violence by spanish police during the "independence referendum" [
[https://spanishpolice.github.io](https://spanishpolice.github.io) (a few
hundred videos) ]. Violence by catalan people against spanish police on the
same day: [ [https://youtu.be/8ak9224HG_E](https://youtu.be/8ak9224HG_E) (guy
throwing a chair to a police entering a school) ], [
[https://youtu.be/DyE0DtVd4Q8](https://youtu.be/DyE0DtVd4Q8) (various people
throwing portable fences to the police) ]

But the most blatant case if that of Jordi Cuixart and Jordi Sánchez. They are
civilian leaders, not political authorities. They presided Òmnium Cultural
(cultural association) and ANC (independentist association) respectively.
Today condemned to 9 years each. For context, right before the "independence
referendum" there were some searches to investigate the referendum and the
people involved. One of them happened in the building of the regional ministry
of economy (September 20th, 2017). There, a spontaneous rally started. A few
hours later, Òmnium Cultural, even though they weren't the ones to start the
rally, filled the documents to formally communicate it to the city hall. Some
will say they were trying to obstaculize the judicial operation, and others
that they were trying to keep the spontaneous rally under control. Well, one
can take a look at the images:

\- Police car destroyed, one the most famous images when trying to show the
violence of the independentists: [
[https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DKPUVBoW0AAa4aw?format=jpg](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DKPUVBoW0AAa4aw?format=jpg)
]. Police left the car parked there, with long guns still inside. Many
demonstrators, reporters and photographers climbed on top of the car during
the day. At least one of the windows was broken by one of the members of the
police at the end of the day, as he himself admitted during the trial.

\- Jordi Cuixart and Jordi Sánchez climbed on top of the police car at the end
of the day too in order to try to dissolve the rally (they also spoke for a
couple minutes before this, with the usual "thanks for coming, we will
continue rallying tomorrow, we will vote, don't be afraid, bla bla"): [
[https://youtu.be/23XrRpfMaw8](https://youtu.be/23XrRpfMaw8) ]. They literally
say: "as much as possible and in a peaceful way, let's dissolve the
demonstration for today". In the trial, Lluís Llach, a famous Catalan singer
(temporarily involved in politics at that point), said that he was there and
that they initially tried to dissolve the rally from a stage that the
association set up on another point on the street, but he eventually suggested
that people didn't hear them from that point (as the stage was intentionally
at a certain distance from the building [they played some music during the day
to distend the mood]), and that they should climb to the police car to speak
from there. They _told the police_ that they were going to climb on their car,
and they didn't receive a negative response, so they just went with it. During
the day, they also set a small corridor [
[https://www.publico.es/uploads/2018/06/26/5b324d03dca57.jpg](https://www.publico.es/uploads/2018/06/26/5b324d03dca57.jpg)
] to try to assist the people who had to enter and leave the building.
Arguably not a good guarantee for the judicial police (who were already
inside), but it makes it very hard to argue that they weren't trying to
collaborate.

For those rallies they get a sentence of 9 years of prison each.

This is only the tip of the iceberg. The historical and political context is
much more complex, I only went over a few details. The independentist leaders
were at the very least fools for saying they would achieve independence in a
year and a half; they played too lose with parlamentary regulations, and they
systematically failed to properly address half of the population that doesn't
want independence. But none of that justifies a single year of prison. 2 have
already passed. They had a parliamentary majority in catalonia and a clear
mandate to organize a referendum. Both the regional opposition and the Spanish
government attrociously defected from politics and pushed towards the
judicialization of the whole process. The case of the Jordi's is just absurd.
Carme Forcadell, the previous president of the catalan parliament, gets 11
years and a half of prison for basically allowing the debate about self-
determination (well, this case, like many of the others, is way more complex
juridically, so you are warned about my over-simplification here). Just
because Spanish media says catalan independentists are violent, that doesn't
make it true (even the sentence admits this). This is not even about self-
determination, it's about basic democracy and the right to protest. Meanwhile,
the arbitrary detentions continue.

I hope someone hears this guy in Europe: [
[https://twitter.com/yanisvaroufakis/status/11836594982270197...](https://twitter.com/yanisvaroufakis/status/1183659498227019778)
]

------
s0l1dsnak3123
A shameful moment in Spanish history.

------
bwidlar
Please, if you dont know about the catalonia problem directly, beware of the
separatist propaganda. Its known they spend a lot of public money in media.

For example, Julian Assange and Yoko Ono were paid to write some twits pro
independence agenda.

(Just moving my comment from the dupe thread)

------
acoye
Where is Calexit now btw?

~~~
gnulinux
Here:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yes_California#Polling](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yes_California#Polling)

Roughly 60% to 70% say "No". So, it's unlikely to happen any time soon.

~~~
repolfx
Watch out for that assumption.

I believe at the end of 2015, a few months before the Brexit referendum, about
70% of people were indicating they'd vote remain in polls. That's the only
reason Cameron and the rest of the Remain-supporting political class allowed a
referendum at all: they were sure they were going to win.

Turns out that intense discussion, debate and political campaigning can change
voter's minds. That's the point of it in fact. Who knew?

------
overkalix
Just nuke the fucking thread.

------
naringas
what does this have to do with hacker news, technology, computers, or science?
these are off-topic political news.

edit to paste the relevant guidelines:

> Off-Topic: Most stories about politics, or crime, or sports, unless they're
> evidence of some interesting new phenomenon. Videos of pratfalls or
> disasters, or cute animal pictures. If they'd cover it on TV news, it's
> probably off-topic.

~~~
Loughla
Politics and the world climate have no impact on technology, computers, or
science?

~~~
davidw
One argument for keeping politics out is this: politics are way _more
important_ than most of what we post here. If they allow it, it would dominate
the site.

~~~
arpa
A very good point!

------
enriquto
Barcelona airport is blocked! Finally we catalans seem to have found some
blood in our veins! Sadly the catalan establishment will try to defuse the
situation, they are quite a bunch of cowards. Hoping we can be as strong and
deterimned as the hongkongers.

~~~
GonzaloQuero
From a Spaniard who never understood the indepentist movement, and assuming
you're in it by the tone of your message: Why this movement, what do you
expect to happen if Catalonia becomes independent, and how would the whole
mess of issues that, for example, Brexit is facing, get done in this case?

Before we make any assumptions, please consider that I'm asking this truly
from an intention of learning, and not trying to bait any flames, or
establishing my position. I've just never had the opportunity to talk to
someone on "the other side".

~~~
enriquto
> From a Spaniard who never understood the indepentist movement, and assuming
> you're in it by the tone of your message: Why this movement, what do you
> expect to happen if Catalonia becomes independent

> Before we make any assumptions, please consider that I'm asking this truly
> from an intention of learning, and not trying to bait any flames, or
> establishing my position. I've just never had the opportunity to talk to
> someone on "the other side".

Thank you for asking this so politely! I appreciate it very much. Really,
thanks! It is very rare that Spaniards take this attitude, and it feels like a
breath of fresh air.

Regarding your question, not all independence supporters share the same
reasons. I think my particular reasons are not very representative, so do not
take what I say as too relevant in the grand scheme of things. But I can only
speak for myself.

My only reason for wanting a catalan state, separate from spain, is concern
for the short-term existence of my language. I could not care less about the
economic situation.

I have witnessed since my youth in the eighties the slow decline of catalan
usage, and its replacement by spanish. I realize that this is not a very
important concern; the world has far worse problems, but it is still a
legitimate concern that merits political attention. I am anti-nationalist and
internationalist, but this does not mean that all languages on Earth must
disappear except one, and all cultures must be merged into a single one.

Most of my life I have not been pro-independence. I identified proudly as a
catalan-speaking spaniard, and even had t-shirts with the spanish flag as I
traveled around Europe. It was in 2003, on a summer travel in Portugal with
people from Spain (spanish speakers), that I realized that they did not see
the catalan culture as a legitimate part of the culture of their own country.
Somehow, the catalan language was "less spanish" than the spanish language. I
found this idea illogical, and the fact that they seriously espoused it was
deeply outraging. Then they pointed me to the spanish constitution, that
states clearly in its infamous Article 3, that spanish language is the
preferred language in front of the other, lesser, local languages. This was
clearly contrary to my view on how things should be, but it was just a law
that could be changed if most people agreed, and it seemed logical than most
people would.

I did not become separatist at this point. Instead, I embarked in a sort of
personal crusade trying to convince all spanish people that I knew that they
should accept the possibility of the catalan language being the sole official
language in the catalan countries, lest it would disappear and they would lose
an important part of the culture of their country. To no avail: the fact that
a person from Valladolid who moved to Girona had to learn the local language
was so foreign to _all_ castilians that it left me in sad despair.

But I did not become separatist at this point. Instead, I was moved by the
enthusiasm around a new proposal for a local law ("estatut de Catalunya
2006"), that had the support of the spanish socialist party (then the main
party in the state, thanks in part to its overwhelming support by catalans and
andalusians), and also the support of all the parties in the catalan
parliament except the spanish conservative party, which had a minor presence
there. This new local law established the equality of the rights for the
speakers of both languages in the territory of Catalonia. I did not agree with
the form (both languages were to become equally official, and citizens had the
right to communicate with the spanish administration in either language),
because I really preferred a single official language, but still, it was a
reasonable compromise. Then there was a referendum in Catalonia, under the
auspices and support of the spanish state, and the new "estatut" was approved
by an overwhelming majority. Once it was approved, the spanish parliament
decided to "cut" it and remove some articles (notably that of the official
languages) and the spanish constitutional court declared it
"unconstitutional". I found this very disturbing, and the removal of the
articles undemocratic and offensive.

But I did not become separatist at this point. It was just a shitty generation
of spanish politicians, and in a few years we would get some fresh, young
people who would be more tolerant than old dinosaurs like Alfonso Guerra and
Manuel Fraga, the main figureheads of opposition to the catalan "estatut". No
worry about that. After all, I was spanish, and catalan was just as spanish as
the other official languages, and what I wanted to do was to change spanish
law for a better fit with my concerns. Also, this view was shared by millions
of people in Catalonia, so it would be just a question of time.

Why do I think the catalan language will disappear if it does not become the
sole official language in at least a major part of its territory? Besides
programming languages, I have a keen interest in human linguistics, and I have
read a lot about its amazing possibilities, and the history and the evolution
of languages. I have learned that diglossia (the simultaneous presence of two
languages by the same people) is an unstable situation that invariably
resolves in the slow disappearance of the least powerful language. A language
that has no monolingual people seems to be doomed to disappear. This is
clearly the case for the catalan language, and it is enforced explicitly by
the spanish constitution. I understand that languages evolve and disappear,
and it is ridiculous to feel sad about this natural evolution. But when this
evolution is biased by a law with which I do not agree, and which the speakers
of the more powerful language refuse absolutely to change, it becomes mildly
infuriating.

But I did not become separatist at this point, yet. At the end of the day, my
language would be alive as long as I was, so it was kind of a stupid concern
to be worried by the disappearance of something that, by definition, I could
never witness.

What triggered me was a very emotional situation. My grandmother--who did not
speak spanish--had fallen and was spending a few weeks at the hospital. She
could not communicate easily with the nurses, who were all foreigners and only
spoke spanish. A quite correct spanish, by the way, due to the fact that you
can only work in Spain if you speak spanish, regardless of whether you speak
catalan or not. Seeing my dying nan struggle to communicate with their
caretakers during the day (my family spent most of the nights there) was, to
put it lightly, extremely enraging. Now it was not a rational decision;
protecting the existence of my language became an emotional issue. A
prioritary issue in my political criteria.

Now, I did not still became separatist, due to that problem. It was the result
of a very rational argument. Now that the catalan language is a main priority,
there are two possibilities.

1\. Change the laws of Spain so that Catalan becomes the sole official
language in the catalan territories.

2\. Separate Catalonia from Spain, and change the catalan laws.

I disliked both alternatives. The first alternative is my preferred, but sadly
it is utopical. If Spain could just accept that the spanish language is _not_
official in part of its territory, I would proudly wave a spanish flag again.
The ideal example is Switzerland, where each language is official alone in its
territory, all on equal grounds, and all the swiss people share a beautiful
sense of unity. But any rational person agrees today that accepting such a
thing is an impossible burden to impose to the majority of spaniards. Maybe I
am wrong, but in that case it must be a majority of spaniards that convince me
back.

The second possibility is awful also. For one, _all_ separatist parties have
made a major point of their programs that the catalan republic must be
bilingual, which in my view does not solve anything. I do not see the point of
an independent spanish-speaking catalonia. Yet, I think that convincing the
catalan parties that bilinguism must be catalan/english and not
catalan/spanish is much less chimerical than convincing the spanish parties.
So here we are.

In the end, whatever the reason, I think that the catalan-speaking people is,
well, _a people_ , and it has the right to decide, alone, about its future. As
a member of this people, I understand that I want to fight for the
independence of my country.

Regarding your Brexit reference, I believe that brexiters are nuts and I
identify with the scots, who want to escape the English crazyness and stay in
the european union for good. I want to escape the Spanish craziness, which I
deem impossible to reform. I actually find the idea of wanting to reform spain
as abhorrent. As a catalan, I desire the well-being of my western neighbors,
but they must sort out their problems themselves.

~~~
GonzaloQuero
Great explanation, thanks! I would be pretty sad if the catalan language
disappeared, because I've always liked its sound (my grandfather was from
Mahon, so he'd speak it every now and then).

~~~
kgwgk
Note that catalan is not at risk of disappearing. It's not even possible to
get education in spanish!

[http://www.catalannews.com/society-science/item/supreme-
cour...](http://www.catalannews.com/society-science/item/supreme-court-
imposes-25-of-school-subjects-to-be-taught-in-spanish-against-catalonia-s-own-
model)

~~~
enriquto
> Note that catalan is not at risk of disappearing.

Of course it isn't. The republic will be able to protect it!

