
How bullying may shape adolescent brains - verizonuser
https://qz.com/1714475/how-bullying-may-shape-adolescent-brains/
======
TrackerFF
Here's my take:

For most people, success in life, is tied up with your self-confidence.

If you think you're gonna fail, you probably are - unless you happen to be
wildly talented at something, and can stumble your way to success. In fact,
many people will not even try, because they lacked the confidence.

It could be academia, work, relationships, hobbies,

If you've been conditioned to believe that you: suck, have no talent, are
ugly, and a loser, then that's something which probably follow you into
adulthood. I know I've seen it many times, with kids from my jr. HS - many
still struggle today, as adults in their 30s.

Low confidence and poor self-esteem / self-worth is a vicious cycle, and
will/can affect all parts of your life down the road.

~~~
empath75
For me it started with bullying from my mom and continued with bullying in
school. The only thing that pulled me out of it was time and MDMA. I don’t
think I got my shit together until my mid 30s. Now I’ve got a family and a
successful career. But I could have very easily have ended up drunk in a
gutter somewhere.

~~~
redleggedfrog
Your Mom?! Holy crap, that's a source that hadn't occurred to me.

Good job getting it together - that must have been a tough row to hoe.

~~~
astura
Parents are the absolute worst bullies. I'm not saying every parent bullies
their children, I'm saying the ones who do the bullying is much worse than
anything peers can dish out. And it's more persistent and impossible to
escape. Then they turn around and act normal in front of other people so the
fucked up kid looks like the bad guy to outsiders.

From as far back as I can remember until I left for college my mom berated me
day in and day out about how my of a piece of garbage I am, how I ruined her
life, how literally everything I did was wrong, and how I'm the reason my dad
is an alcoholic. Despite me being a good kid who never got into any trouble.

I was bullied in elementary school, middle school, and summer camp for being a
runt (literally off the growth charts) but it didn't actually bother me, I
already learned that I was garbage from my mom.

Been through years of therapy... I don't think I'll ever be able to really
recover, the best I can do is move forward.

~~~
jader201
So sorry you didn’t have it better. Parents should be the absolute opposite of
a bully.

~~~
astura
I'm not sharing my experience for sympathy, I'm sharing it to challenge the
"parents are basically Jesus" narrative of society. If an adult child doesn't
provide care for their parents (or even limits contact with them) then society
thinks the child is the asshole. Yet it's been my observation that 9 times out
of 10 the asshole is the parents, not the broken and innocent child. We have
to navigate both the severe emotional turmoil the parents caused and the
(sometimes severe) societal disapproval of distancing ourselves from the toxic
relationship.

------
UncleOxidant
50-something here. I was bullied a lot in elementary, jr. high and high school
probably because I was the nerdy kid who was into science. We also moved a lot
so I was always the outsider. While my home life was fine (my parents were
great) I do suffer from anxiety and difficulty staying in a job for more than
a year or two. I've only recently started to make the connection with the
bullying I received. Back in the 70s & 80s when I was in school the attitude
was that bullying made the bullied stronger so adults rarely intervened (as
they thought that conversely, doing so would make the bullied kid "weaker").
Even the response of my parents was to put me into Karate classes - I think
that did help some as I did gain more confidence, but I think the policy now
to stop bullying in the schools is much better.

~~~
chimi
Anxiety as an emotion is _very_ similar to excitement. Sam Harris discusses
this a lot. I never got from him what exactly the difference is, but the other
day in the car, I felt excited and started really analyzing why.

What I _believe_ now is that the difference between anxiety and excitement is:
perception of outcome.

If you have a _positive_ expected outcome, you are _excited_. If you have a
_negative_ expected outcome you are _anxious_.

The next step, is to convert anxiety _into_ excitement. I'm still working on
this part. I think this is where "little victories" come into play. If you
have a series of successes that can change your perception of outcome from
negative to positive it might work over the long term.

In the short term, "happy thoughts" might work. "You can do it!!"
Encouragement. Confidence.

Of course all of this is very new to me, so these are mostly just my
hypotheses, but I plan to examine the ideas in more detail and see what I can
do with it...

~~~
axaxs
Anxiety, at least medically speaking, seems to be a loaded word. I've been
told I had "anxiety" for some health related symptoms I had experienced,
though I feel nothing like excitement nor dread. It's a very strange
thought...almost what I might call 'subconscious anxiety'. As in, I don't mind
people and am not anti social. But sometimes, in large noisy crowds, would
feel lightheaded as if were going to pass out. Never really figured that one
out - just wanted to point out that anxiety isn't always just a person
thinking negatively.

~~~
UncleOxidant
Anxiety can definitely be triggered at a subconscious level. I get the dizzy,
lightheaded thing as well and and I usually am not initially aware of why. But
often, if I can take a step back and mentally assess the situation I can
become aware of what the trigger was.

------
bane
I've never understood why schools seem so reticent to enforce zero-tolerance
policies against bullying. In my experience at least, every time bullying
seems to be a problem at a school, it's because the environment allows it to
occur.

Schools will eagerly put in place various other zero-tolerance policies, like
no fighting. So if you dare defend yourself against such a social predator,
you are taught a lesson by such a policy that you've done a bad thing.

I was fortunate never to be a victim of bullying, but many of my friends were
(we were a bunch of nerds after all). The difference was I had support at home
for fighting back because my parents knew the administration wasn't watching
out for students well being. The lesson I learned is that fighting back is the
single most effective strategy for stopping bullies, and that parents have to
ensure that their child is shielded from ineffective school behavioral
policies.

My friends didn't have such support and suffered from it, and couldn't ever
learn that lesson. Some of them couldn't have fought back even if it was okay
for them to do so for various reasons. The ones I still have contact with
today have lingering social problems from the childhood bullying and this has
fully reinforced on me that bullying is a social plague that needs to be
aggressively stamped out.

There is the other side that bullies themselves are suffering in turn. Many
come from shattered home lives or abusive parentage. Those children should be
identified and put into some kind of counseling program as early and as
intensively as possible. They will also grow up to be damaged in some way
because of it and in their lives, perhaps _only_ the school has an opportunity
to tamper down their violent instincts.

However, the physical and emotional violence that bullies subject others to is
absolutely not to be tolerated in any way. And it seems the best way for other
children to handle it is to simply do their best to fight back.

~~~
jokoon
> I've never understood why schools seem so reticent to enforce zero-tolerance
> policies against bullying.

It's pretty simple, this has a political answer: people believe that life is
hard and that "it's tough out there", hence it's important for school to
"toughen up" kids. It's as simple as that. Social darwinism is a creeping
ideology that nobody really questions or talk about, but it's there, despite
the presence of social programs.

If you ask people "should we protect the weak?", at the end of the day, people
will answer "no, it's too difficult to protect the weak, if they can't survive
or toughen up, they deserve to die or suffer, they cannot pull other people
down".

Everybody knows that sending their kids to school generates a lot of anxiety
for parents, because parents cannot protect their kids anymore, since bullying
and "justice in the classroom" are difficult to do, but also hard for kids to
talk about.

School is an excellent description of its society. Kids never lie, and their
behavior naively precedes and envision the real spine of society. It's also
where values and beliefs are taught.

Bullying exists because society not only tolerates it, but doesn't want to
fight it. The "school of hard knocks" meme proves this perfectly.

~~~
gwd
> It's pretty simple, this has a political answer: people believe that life is
> hard and that "it's tough out there", hence it's important for school to
> "toughen up" kids.

I wouldn't necessarily put it that way; but there is 1) a sense from adults
that kids should learn to "sort out their own problems", 2) a sense from kids
that you shouldn't "tell" ("snitches get stitches").

But the question is, how would you "sort out" a similar situation as an adult?
Well if you were regularly physically threatened by someone as an adult _you
would call the police_ , and or _you would stop going there_. And if someone
was an emotional bully at your workplace, _they would be fired_ or _you would
find another job_.

But most of these options aren't really there for kids. Nobody is kicked out
of school or demoted for being jerks, and often they're not kicked out of
school even for regular physical intimidation. Kids have very little
opportunity to change their environment. And often the authorities who are
supposed to be protecting them look the other way.

I don't have kids yet, but if my kid experienced physical intimidation, and
the principal / teachers in the school had the "kids need to sort it out"
attitude, I would be severely tempted to say in response: "From now on,
everything that is done by bullies to my child, I will do to you. If my child
finds bullies waiting for him as he leaves the school, you will find me
waiting by your car. If my child has their head put in a toilet, I will put
your head in the toilet. We'll see how you manage to 'sort it out for
yourself'." (Obviously that may not actually turn out to be practical -- the
point is to highlight what we expect kids to put up with vs what we expect
adults to put up with.)

~~~
magduf
>I would be severely tempted to say in response: "From now on, everything that
is done by bullies to my child, I will do to you.

>Obviously that may not actually turn out to be practical

I like this idea. For it to work, you probably need an accomplice, and to make
sure there's no witnesses. Have an accomplice provide an alibi ("no, he was at
home with me at that time"), and make sure there's no witnesses when you beat
the crap out of the principal late at night.

Honestly, since schools are simply not willing to do anything about the
problem, I don't see how this is a bad solution at all.

~~~
folkhack
It wouldn't work - you would just get arrested. I think that's part of the
point - there are consequences for adults exhibiting this sort of behavior
where there are arguably very few/none for children.

As much as I love watching the "Ray Velcoro Beats Up Bully's Dad" bit, it's
just Hollywood. If someone pulled a stunt like beating up a principal, or an
abuser's father, you would immediately be a criminal and you'd be legally
destroyed to the full extent of the law. You'd likely lose your job, etc etc.
These same legal consequences just don't exist bullies - and I think they
should (with obvious due process and clear evidence).

~~~
dragonsngoblins
Well keep in mind that Ray got a way with it because he was a detective. It
isn't like he was just some guy.

------
bullied
I was bullied badly as a child and am permanently suicidal, with no trusting
relationships and failed life: homeless, mentally ruined, no career, assets,
accomplishment, etc. It’s to the point where, decades after having said to
self “people are shit and I don’t want to be alive anymore” as a child, I
turned down a million dollar inheritance to keep close to a permanently
suicidal self-imposed destiny. It’s difficult to say how much was due to the
bullying, but I do think of these horrible memories daily and have done so for
a long time.

Perhaps my life would have turned out similarly even without such traumatic
childhood events. Then again, I’m a pretty cynical person who simply doesn’t
give a shit about being alive, due to believing people are consistently low
quality in seemingly all walks of life. The bullies from my childhood, on the
other hand, have successful, normal lives. As I recall, the bullying occurred
at school as a child, at university, at work, and in public by strangers has
occurred consistently in any walk of life

Bullying seems to be a valid filtering process, as I was the weaker genetic
offspring who correspondingly didn’t procreate. Meanwhile, I’ve spent decades
immersed in disdain for my own species and self.

~~~
etagobla
I think it's incredibly mature of you to realize this and accept it without
the anger towards women that is so common among young men these days.

~~~
javelinaway
It's not mature of him. Bullying is not a valid filtering process; it's
childish violence. He's clearly still dealing with the lies he was told by the
people around him. If you have this sort of self-hating perspective, you
should seek therapy, because you don't have to live that way.

------
fortran77
I wonder if the people with these brain differences were more susceptible to
bullying because of the social cues they express. So it's not bullying shaping
brains, it's different types of brains get bullied more.

Perhaps they should look at the brains of bullies, too.

~~~
screye
Naah, I was bullied heavily in school and have keenly observed those who get
bullied. It is the one form the 'out group'.

I was bullied because I was the only kid in the group from a 'rival colony'
and had 'helicopter-ish' parents. Every bullied kid since was either: fat,
ugly, new kid in town, disabled or something like that.

~~~
andrewjrhill
Can confirm about it being the odd one out. As one of maybe 5 white kids in my
very poor school, I was bullied relentlessly from 6 to 12 years old. I was
quite an effeminate kid too with long blonde hair. Soft, quiet and not nearly
as athletic as the other kids. They were ruthless both verbally and
physically. I'm now 29 years old, 6'4", 90kg and I lift 4x a week and _still_
have gddmn self confidence issues.

I am considering taking up martial arts in an attempt to break this
subconscious mindset which I am almost positive was caused by years of
bullying as a child.

~~~
fortran77
I own a gym, and it's always interesting listening to what the trainers, all
nice looking fit guys, worry about, and their own self-confidence issues.

------
foobar_
One of the mindsets of the bully is assuming that the victim has something
that the bully doesn't. This leads to envy, feeling of self-doubt .... which
leads the bully to find the weakness of the victim and punish them for it.
After punishing the bully feels "good". The goal behind their bullying
behaviour is to eliminate the competition.

Apart from this imitation of other bullies and impressing their peers are
major factors.

Ex) A jock might envy the smartness of a nerd. A conservative might envy the
freedom of a liberal.

~~~
zozbot234
Yup, that's exactly what narcissism is. "I _can 't_ possibly deal with being
made to feel like a loser, so I will _hurt_ those who might otherwise threaten
my exaggerated ego". It's not a healthy mindset at all, it's a sign of serious
pathology.

~~~
wallace_f
Aren't most people like this, though?

~~~
javelinaway
Nobody likes being made to feel like a loser, but not everybody feels some
sort of entitlement to hurt others as a way of coping.

~~~
wallace_f
Are you sure? Have you read human history? Or read about corruption in
finance, healthcare, education, etc?

~~~
foobar_
Narcissists, sociopaths and psychopaths make up 10-15% of the population. It's
normal for them.

------
marcus_holmes
I literally just told a security guard at the PyCon in Berlin to go f __*
themselves as a direct result of bullying I experienced at boarding school in
the '70s.

It took 2 years of therapy to make that connection, though.

------
ekanes
I was bullied in school, and jiu jitsu feels like it's re-wiring my brain and
erasing much of the damage (fear of conflict, especially with males).

------
anxman
Can confirm. I was bullied by my verbally abusive brother for almost 35 years.
I have diagnosed PTSD now.

------
schalab
Seems to me a large part of growing up is keeping up with the herd. Like a
pack of zebras in the savannah. If you stray too far behind or show weakness,
you get picked off by the roving lions.

Now I can see utility in behavior divergent from the norm being encouraged.
But at the same time, peer pressure to keep moving and keeping pace is a great
motivator for growth.

So, I would say the issue needs to be studied with greater depth than it sucks
for the guy being bullied. What is the greater effect on the entire
population? If you ensure no one gets bullied there is a non zero possibility
that it results in a negative effect for the entire population in the long
run.

~~~
magduf
>Seems to me a large part of growing up is keeping up with the herd. Like a
pack of zebras in the savannah. If you stray too far behind or show weakness,
you get picked off by the roving lions.

Yeah, but you don't see the zebras beating the crap out of each other for
being too slow. They just let the lions do it.

With us humans, we don't just leave others to their own devices; instead, we
take on the role of the predator for no good reason. Basically, humans (some
of them) are evil, and get enjoyment from doing evil things to others. Animals
just don't have this problem for the most part.

~~~
wallace_f
Are most people are evil in this way? Most laugh and exhibit schadenfreude.
Most of my friends who I played Simcity or GTA with were maniacal murderers in
these games.

~~~
magduf
Most? I don't think so. But some small but significant fraction, perhaps 5%
really are, and then they're able to get a good chunk of the rest of the herd
to follow along with them.

------
HNLurker2
The only way to overcome your bully is to face him, leave him or cope (learned
the hard way)

~~~
tempguy9999
And if the bully is your parents, which of these do you recommend?

Edit: sorry, that was an unnecessary response by me. Clearly you weren't
thinking in those terms. Apologies.

~~~
AiApotheosis
Until you can separate yourself, learn to cope. Start with "Adult Children of
Emotionally Immature Parents".

[0] [https://www.amazon.com/Adult-Children-Emotionally-
Immature-P...](https://www.amazon.com/Adult-Children-Emotionally-Immature-
Parents/dp/1626251703/ref=tmm_pap_swatch_0?_encoding=UTF8&qid=1570725592&sr=8-1-spons)

------
devoply
Bullies themselves need counselling on managing their own needs and emotions
rather than punishment. We focus so much on the victims, we also need to focus
on the perpetrators and see them as victims as well if not of anything else
than their own psychology.

~~~
codegladiator
> Bullies themselves need counselling on managing their own needs and emotions
> rather than punishment

So, criminals also, by that logic, themselves need counseling on managing
their own needs and emotions rather than punishment ?

~~~
Juliate
Actually, yes, they do.

You want this, especially when you know they will one day get out of jail.

~~~
devoply
Not only that, they will have wives, girlfriends, and children; they may
eventually have employees. You can not stop them period. They are a part of
the human population. They can not be weeded out.

~~~
codegladiator
Bullies bully when they know they can get away with it (so does criminals). I
just fail to follow your narrative.

I would alternatively suggest to make the punishment severe and make sure
bullies can't get away with it.

~~~
pdpi
The question you're not asking is "why are people engaging in these
behaviours?"

You don't have to deter people from engaging in bad behaviour if those people
don't feel motivated to engage in those behaviours in the first place.

~~~
jacobush
They get motivated when their peers condone it. You and I are the bully. We
just need the “right” environment.

~~~
zozbot234
Peers who condone bullying are probably being manipulated into doing so, by
someone with narcissistic traits who is skilled at whipping up hate towards
the intended victims. It's not a normal attitude at all, it's very much a red
flag that something quite nasty is going on.

~~~
jacobush
It’s very common and very natural. We all try to find our in- and by
extension, out-group.

Narcissists just make the problem much, much worse.

------
leoc
I used to worry about this kind of thing, but after a while obverving the
primate social behaviours on display on journalist/pundit/etc. Twitter I'm
starting to be more worried about the damaging psychological effects of not
being bullied enough at school. (Just half-joking.)

