
Man Denies He's Bitcoin Founder - keammo1
http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_BITCOIN_FOUNDER_DENIAL?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2014-03-06-19-35-06
======
jsnk
I will forever mark the name, Leah McGrath Goodman and Newsweek editorial
staff in my mind as a toxic journalist and TMZ-styled publication after this
event.

Granted, I don't think Leah McGrath Goodman and Newsweek did anything illegal
by breaking this story. I don't think it's wrong for Goodman to attempt to
contact Satoshi's relatives over the phone.

What really crossed the line for me was Leah McGrath Goodman and Newsweek's
decision to post the photo of the house, with the car's plate info on it.

Why would you do this? What relavence if any did this have to the story?

Showing of the house with car license plate resulted in identifying his
address really easily. Let's face it. She wouldn't have done this to Bill
Gates or Jeff Bezos even though they are far more famous, rich and public. She
did this to this guy only because he's reclusive and powerless.

~~~
declan
> I don't think Leah McGrath Goodman and Newsweek did anything illegal

I wouldn't be so sure. Both may be subject to tort liability if Dorian
Nakamoto != Satoshi Nakamoto. See my tweet:
[https://twitter.com/declanm/status/441711365888040960](https://twitter.com/declanm/status/441711365888040960)

And a response by an attorney who works on Internet issues:
[https://twitter.com/SeanFlaim/status/441727448539873281](https://twitter.com/SeanFlaim/status/441727448539873281)

~~~
gamblor956
He has a colorable claim but no chance of winning. The founder of a
cryptocurrency which now boasts of a >$1 billion market is legitimately a
matter of the public interest, even if it's not the right guy.

This principle has been established many times by people who were mistaken for
criminal defendants (not always defendants with the same name), including the
Boston U student who killed himself shortly before the Boston Marathon
bombing.

~~~
declan
Ah, but how many cases involved that particular California law being invoked
by the plaintiff?

~~~
gamblor956
"Legitimate public interest" is a _defense_ to a tort. It is used by the
publication to defend itself from an invasion of privacy claim. It can't be
used by a plaintiff (except as a defense to a counterclaim by the defendant).

------
Aqueous
Ok, I'm sorry but there are some serious inconsistencies here.

Leah McGrath Goodman said that after she asked him about BitCoin he promptly
stopped emailing her. The timeline is unclear, but it seems like this was
before Goodman contacted his family members. Why would she contact his family
members if she was directly talking to him and they could blow her pretext of
wanting to talk about model trains?

This strongly suggests that he knew enough about BitCoin to be chased away by
the question. He uses English and American spellings, just like Satoshi's
mailing list postings. He has a computer engineering background.

When she came to his house he said, verbatim, exactly what happened with
BitCoin - "I'm not involved in that anymore." And something to the effect of
"That's been handed over to others, I have no involvement with that anymore."
This, if it was said, strongly suggests to me that this is in fact Satoshi.

Given that this would be catastrophe for both the journalist and Newsweek if
it turned out to be wrong, and they must have seen some compelling evidence if
they went forward with the story - I'm skeptical about Dorian Nakamoto's
denial here.

~~~
bhouston
I agree as much as one can. Unless there are outright fabrications in the
Newsweek story, you really can not then start denying his role after he seemed
to be admitting it. The chance of a random guy just admitting his role, being
eccentric and really smart in this area and then later denying it -- and then
not being the guy behind Bitcoin, seems implausible.

That said, if the guy wants his privacy, we can afford it to him, and if the
only way to do that is to pretend he isn't the founder, so be it. So that is
how I am going to interpret these denials and those agreeing with them.

~~~
declan
Another possibility is that the Newsweek reporter was overly convinced she was
right, and ignored inconsistencies that disagreed with her premise. We don't
have audio of the exchange where Dorian Nakamoto allegedly quasi-admitted to
being involved in Bitcoin. I could be wrong, of course, but misquotes do
happen.

~~~
selmnoo
My theory: Dorian thought the reporter was asking him about his past at the
defense contractor. Doing work for a defense contractor sometimes gets you
crap, so maybe he was trying to distance himself from _that_ , like, "No, I
_used_ to work for a company that did potentially evil for the government, I'm
no longer involved with it". I know some people who did work for defense, and
they're not very open about it.

The reason why he thought the reporter was asking about his work at a defense
contractor vs. bitcoin? Plain ole' miscommunication... Leah perhaps presented
herself in an unconfident, possibly suspicious manner like she's out to get
him and the guy's like "nope, not gonna get into this". And to be fair,
English _is_ this guy's second language.

~~~
declan
Take a look at the writethru. That's it.

[http://bigstory.ap.org/article/ap-exclusive-man-denies-
hes-b...](http://bigstory.ap.org/article/ap-exclusive-man-denies-hes-bitcoin-
founder)

~~~
bpicolo
That or he's trying to remain "anonymous" after being outed. Which is totally
reasonable.

------
fchollet
Textbook case of repulsively inane "journalism". Newsweek senior writer Leah
McGrath Goodman was assigned the task to write a juicy story by outing the
Bitcoin inventor. Here's how she went about it, as a diligent professional:
starting from the assumption that Satoshi Nakamoto was literally his real
name, she went scouring a database that contained the registration cards of
naturalized U.S. citizens (for the record, Nakamoto is the ~400th most common
Japanese name).

A Satoshi Nakamoto then turned up whose profile and background offered a
potential match (as he used to be an engineering contractor and had shown
libertarian views in the past), if you were willing to ignore a lot of facts
(such as his less-than-native mastery of English). She then interviewed the
man's family, fabricated a few quotes implying involvement with Bitcoin, and
published a clickbait story destroying the man's privacy.

Well at least, Dorian Nakamoto got a free lunch out of it.

~~~
fchollet
Interestingly, it seems Satoshi just spoke out to state that he is not Dorian
Nakamoto: [http://p2pfoundation.ning.com/forum/topics/bitcoin-open-
sour...](http://p2pfoundation.ning.com/forum/topics/bitcoin-open-
source?commentId=2003008%3AComment%3A52186)

~~~
fchollet
It is remarkable that there was no such denial when Nick Szabo was widely
outed as a likely Satoshi in tech blogs and the press a few months ago:
[http://likeinamirror.wordpress.com/2013/12/01/satoshi-
nakamo...](http://likeinamirror.wordpress.com/2013/12/01/satoshi-nakamoto-is-
probably-nick-szabo/)

~~~
hendzen
Szabo didn't have reporters camping outside of his house. Besides, Szabo is a
ghost anyway.

------
Steko
Man says X, later claims not X. Bitcoin enthusiasts declare total victory for
not X, call for tar and feathering of company that published X.

No harm in giving this some time and seeing if "Man Denies He's Bitcoin
Founder" turns out to filed next to[1] "Man Denies Connection to Olympic
Bombing" or next to "OJ Announces Search For Real Killers".

[1] pedantry disclaimer: not meant as perfect analogies

~~~
declan
Except there's no evidence he said X in the first place. See the AP's
writethru.

~~~
Steko
Gonna file your comment under "Bitcoin enthusiasts declare total victory for
not X"

On what planet is this not evidence:

 _" Newsweek writer Leah McGrath Goodman, who spent two months researching the
story, told the AP: "I stand completely by my exchange with Mr. Nakamoto.
There was no confusion whatsoever about the context of our conversation -- and
his acknowledgment of his involvement in Bitcoin."_

~~~
declan
An audio recording is evidence. What you quoted back to me is the possibly
flawed recollection of a reporter who's in the unenviable position of
defending a very high-profile cover story used to relaunch a national
magazine. That reporter is no longer a disinterested observer. The AP, to a
first approximation, is.

~~~
Steko
Discount it however you want, her _testimony is a form of evidence_ [1]. To
say there is "no evidence" is simply and flatly false.

[1] That's a quote from here:

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Testimony](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Testimony)

~~~
declan
First, we're not in a courtroom with the witness under oath. Second, because
we're not, we can't cross-examine the witness. Third, even if we could and her
recollection is as you say, the balance of evidence would remain heavily
tilted against Dorian == Satoshi. Sorry. :)

------
onewaystreet
According to the Newsweek article this Satoshi Nakamoto:

1\. Dropped all contact with the reporter when the topic of Bitcoin was
brought up over email.

2\. Called the cops when the reporter went to his house to ask him about
Bitcoin.

3\. Said to the reporter: "I am no longer involved in that and I cannot
discuss it," "It's been turned over to other people. They are in charge of it
now. I no longer have any connection."

Someone here is lying, because a person who only heard of Bitcoin three weeks
ago doesn't do and say those things.

~~~
devindotcom
Could also be interpreted:

1\. Dropped all contact when it was clear the person had misrepresented
themselves and thought he was Satoshi.

2\. Called the cops when this stranger came to his home to persist in this
line of questioning.

3\. Reporter says he said this, but also the cop just happens to be familiar
with bitcoin and quip something appropriate. It could easily be a paraphrase
of this man saying he's no longer involved in the govt projects we know him to
be involved in, and he has no connection with them.

Why didn't the reporter record this exchange? Seems elementary when you're
ambushing the guy. And has no one contacted the cop involved to see what he
said or knows?

------
DigitalSea
Based on other investigative efforts people have undertaken, the kind of level
of complexity Bitcoin has in its underlying code-base shows that there might
have been more than one person responsible for Bitcoin. It's unfortunate this
has happened to a guy who is not related to Bitcoin at all. Pictures of his
house, location, his full name and even going as far as documenting that he's
between in and out of jobs over the years was uncalled for in my opinion.

Do editors and journalists not read what is being published? Feels like we've
all been transformed back 7 to 10 years ago where this kind of "investigative
journalism" was prevalent and hardly investigative at all. NewsWeek either
need to put up some conclusive proof or retract everything they've said and
give mr Satoshi an apology.

It'll be interesting if from a legal perspective Dorian Satoshi has a case
against NewsWeek considering this has already gone to print. If it causes
Satoshi's life to crumble, make it hard for him to get employment, subjects
him to harassment from armchair Internet investigators and whatnot, he might
have some kind of case. But having said that, this would mean if it went to
court, he would have to offer up access to info that NewsWeek and others don't
have and if he is the real Satoshi, it would come back to bite him.

The real question is, if this is the real Satoshi, why isn't he using his
incredible stash of Bitcoin to live a little more comfortably? Hiding in plain
sight perhaps. Just let the poor guy be. Nobody should be subject to this kind
of speculative journalism. It's the Boston bombing situation all over again.

Edit: the real Satoshi responded to his original announcement here, his first
communication in 5 years: [http://p2pfoundation.ning.com/forum/topics/bitcoin-
open-sour...](http://p2pfoundation.ning.com/forum/topics/bitcoin-open-
source?commentId=2003008%3AComment%3A52186) — a simple one liner.

~~~
nhaehnle
The new Satoshi Nakamoto communication is really interesting. There have been
quite a lot of stories over time supposedly identifying the real Nakamoto, and
there was complete silence over this.

So... did Newsweek get the real Nakamoto who is panicking now? Or did they get
the wrong guy, and the real guy feels like _this time_ (rather than those
previous times) he has to step in to protect the innocent?

It's not really evidence in any direction.

~~~
DigitalSea
It is a rather interesting situation. Especially when you take into
consideration how quickly the real Satoshi Nakamoto issued the statement
saying he wasn't Dorian Nakamoto when this isn't exactly the first story to
come out supposedly identifying the man behind the mask of Bitcoin. The
statement was also issued rather quickly, but I can see why though in a non-
conspiracy kind of way.

The man being targeted by NewsWeek is old and just because he says he's not
the real Satoshi won't stop conspiracy nut jobs from stalking him and trying
to find out the truth. Pictures of his home and location, children's photos
and names have been plastered all over the Internet, I really feel for the guy
even if he is the real Satoshi.

This whole situation highlights while the real Satoshi will probably never
come out of secrecy if this situation is anything to go by. Not only that, but
given NSA's extensive surveillance program, he would no doubt be subjected to
more focused observation than others.

------
Zikes
Man, it's a good thing HN didn't fly off the handle and start obsessing over
this man and try to invade his privacy using the excuse that NewsWeek started
it and that makes it okay.

That would've been pretty embarrassing.

~~~
nthitz
That was not my impression of the HN comments in the least. Most HN commenters
seemed to think it was an egregious invasion of his privacy from what I read.

~~~
mikeyouse
HN in a nutshell:

This was an egregious invasion of his privacy! Look, these postings from years
ago on various message boards don't match his writing style -- these Amazon
reviews don't match the style either -- his INS form doesn't match the
timeline as close as expected -- From the streetview of his house, it doesn't
look like the house of a hundred-millionaire -- this transaction made 3 years
ago to buy juice in New York is off too -- I can't believe Newsweek invaded
his privacy!

~~~
lukifer
It's almost as if there was more than person on HN.

------
vex
Looks like Newsweek is going to have to deal with some pretty heavy fallout,
seeing as they've already gone to print:
[https://twitter.com/KiraBind/status/441683373665554433/photo...](https://twitter.com/KiraBind/status/441683373665554433/photo/1)

~~~
natrius
If by fallout you mean tons of revenue, then I agree.

~~~
mililani
I'm thinking more like a huge lawsuit.

~~~
fleitz
Libel? Slander? Where's the suit? If this guy actually is Satoshi the last
thing in the world he wants is to be on a witness stand.

Opening a case against Newsweek lets them subpoena all sorts of records that
they aren't entitled to with out a case, primarily because the truth is a
defence to slander / libel, and if this guy loses then he's forever Satoshi.

Also it's going to be pretty difficult to prove that he suffered damages from
the article.

~~~
pseudonym
>Also it's going to be pretty difficult to prove that he suffered damages from
the article.

It depends on what the fallout from it is, in terms of internet attention. If
he's not "the real Satoshi" and he starts getting harassed because of this
article, I'd say he has a pretty decent case: If the statement "is false,
caused harm, and was made without adequate research", then most non-celebrity
citizens have a pretty strong case.

------
declan
AP's writethru with more details is now up:
[http://bigstory.ap.org/article/ap-exclusive-man-denies-
hes-b...](http://bigstory.ap.org/article/ap-exclusive-man-denies-hes-bitcoin-
founder)

Key excerpt: He also said a key portion of the piece — where he is quoted
telling the reporter on his doorstep before two police officers, "I am no
longer involved in that and I cannot discuss it" — was misunderstood. Nakamoto
said he is a native of Beppu, Japan who came to the U.S. when he was 10. He
speaks both English and Japanese, but his English isn't flawless. Asked if he
said the quote, Nakamoto responded, "no." "I'm saying I'm no longer in
engineering. That's it," he said of the exchange. "And even if I was, when we
get hired, you have to sign this document, contract saying you will not reveal
anything we divulge during and after employment. So that's what I implied."

------
hristov
I do not believe him. There are just too many coincidences there. This is not
a common name. What are the chances you find someone that has the math and
engineering knowledge to create bitcoin and has not been busy with anything
else during the relevant period among the "several" people that newsweek found
having that name in the entire world.

He is probably scared for his life and scared for the safety of his family.
And it might be with good reason. So I am not going to bother him or anything,
but lets be honest: he is probably the guy.

I think the bitcoin community will help him regain his anonymity. It is in
their interest that the mystery of Satoshi survives. I am sure he is a great
person but the face of Dorian Satoshi Nakamoto just does not seem to inspire
billion dollar valuations.

~~~
dinkumthinkum
Eh do you think it is an uncommon name and scared for his life? Are Bill Gates
or Warren Buffet paralyzed with fear?

~~~
hristov
It would be very difficult to rob Bill Gates or Warren Buffet and get away
with it. Their money is mostly in the records of various banks, brokerage
houses, corporations etc. It would be very difficult to steal that without
being immediately traced.

It seems much easier to steal bitcoin. None of the significant bitcoin thieves
have been caught thus far, and we are talking large sums being stolen.

Regarding his name being uncommon, I have to admit, I know little of Japanese
names or how common they are. I trusted the Newsweek article which suggested
the name was very uncommon and they also kind of suggested that they checked
all the Satoshi Nakamotos they could find on record. But of course they may be
wrong.

------
bishnu
So Newsweek, returning to print newsstands after several years, runs with a
cover story that is debunked on the internet in a matter of hours?

Is this not a perfect metaphor for the print journalism industry? Can we bet
on when Print Newsweek 2.0 _also_ goes belly-up?

~~~
devindotcom
It's not a very good metaphor at all, especially when the story first appeared
online, and was (edit: possibly)debunked by a massive news corporation that
has been in print for decades. If it turns out this guy isn't Satoshi, it's
just plain good reporting by the AP. As for Newsweek, that would be it, I
think. They'd be a laughing stock.

~~~
gamblor956
I'm reminded of the time the AP said that a Boston U student (who we now know
had been dead for several weeks) was the likely suspect in the Boston Marathon
bombing, blindly regurgitating the rumors on reddit.

It turns out they were wrong about something far worse than claiming that some
guy created Bitcoin. And yet, the AP is still around today...and is now being
cited by the tech community as a paragon of journalism.

~~~
skwirl
Can you link to a source regarding your claim that the AP wrongly implicated
Sunil Tripathi in the Boston Marathon bombings? I couldn't find anything on
Google, either by searching the entire internet or just ap.org.

------
lsiebert
I would like to take this opportunity to also deny that I had anything to do
with the development of Bitcoin.

------
chuinard
The original article claims of an encounter with Satoshi with the police
present that mention he handed Bitcoin off. Wouldn't it make sense for Leah to
get that officer to go on public record corroborating her story? Or can
officers not do that?

------
dmazin
Wait, two hour exclusive for that? What else did they talk about? Off-record
proof that he wasn't the man, I suppose?

~~~
declan
AP is likely to do a writethru. That's their style. Patience.

~~~
danielweber
For those of us that aren't journalists, what's a writethru?

~~~
declan
Oh, sorry. Wire services often will update their stories multiple times,
especially if the news is timely. That gives their subscribers (especially
newspapers with early print deadlines) something to work with, and the promise
of more later. It also can carry bragging rights, important in inter-newsroom
rivalries, about being first to publish.

I've worked in newsrooms with direct AP feeds and I've seen as many as a dozen
writethrus with major AP stories. On the internal feeds, at least, they're
marked with version numbers and a terse explanation of what changed.

I'm mildly surprised that AP hasn't published a writethru on their own
website. It's been over an hour. Perhaps they have on their direct feeds, not
sure.

------
fleitz
Classic question of identity combined with he said, she said.

I look forward to hearing the Ship of Theseus discussed in court.

------
ck2
This man has had a stroke and cancer.

People need to leave him the hell alone.

------
technotony
What about the article that was posted earlier today about the shop keeper who
had this Satoshi visit his store and spend bitcoins? If that was true then it
would breach this guys claim that he only learnt about bitcoin three weeks
ago.

Edit: link to previous article:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7354326](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7354326)

~~~
Zikes
The shop keeper on the other side of the country that once had an Asian man
come in about three years ago and buy two crepes without giving his name or
letting his photo be taken?

~~~
sarreph
What wasn't mentioned was the owner's wife's _crepey_ photographic memory.

~~~
marcomassaro
I see what you did there

------
csense
Readers who believe Dorian != Satoshi: What would you have to see to convince
you that Dorian == Satoshi?

Readers who believe Dorian == Satoshi: What would you have to see to convince
you that Dorian != Satoshi?

The hallmark of a good belief system is that your beliefs are falsifiable --
there exists some hypothetical set of experiments which could return
unexpected results that would make you change your beliefs.

------
mililani
Well, duh, what else was he going to say? Confess??

------
bennyg
Apparently there was a car chase (kind of) involved:

[http://www.slate.com/blogs/future_tense/2014/03/06/satoshi_n...](http://www.slate.com/blogs/future_tense/2014/03/06/satoshi_nakamoto_car_chase_bitcoin_creator_pursued_by_media_as_joe_bel_bruno.html)

------
jballanc
Hahaha...well played!

This guy, whoever he is, is definitely one step ahead of the rest of us.

Anyone with a modicum of intelligence would know that it's effectively
impossible to remain truly anonymous in this day and age. So what do you do if
you want to be left alone? Either you make sure you have enough "insurance"
that no one would risk messing with you, or you play the system against
itself: leak just enough information to lead people down your trail but not so
much that the trail can't equally plausibly be denied. It's all rather
reminiscent of Vinnie "The Chin" Gigante's decades-long ruse of feigned
insanity to avoid prosecution.

 _Side note_ : I think the last high-profile anonymous figure that managed to
remain truly anonymous for any length of time was "Deep Throat", and he did
all of his talking pre-internet.

~~~
dinkumthinkum
This is strange ... Really ... But I thought I'd say, have you ever thought
that some people may have succeeded in being "anonymous" or hidden by the
simple that you have not heard of them?

------
ronnier
I'm holding to my comment!

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6828576](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6828576)

>I am only certain of one thing when it comes to bitcoin, the creator(s) are
not Japanese.

~~~
saraid216
I still claim that Satoshi Nakamoto is the NSA. Clearly this was one of their
fall guys. Terrible people, the NSA, setting up innocent bystanders as
scapegoats.

~~~
nhaehnle
What is your story for the thought processes/internal processes at NSA that
would have led to the creation of Bitcoin by them? I'm genuinely curious
because it seems pretty out of character for an organization whose task is to
protect the established elite to go out of their way to create something
extremely creative that could endanger the established elite.

~~~
saraid216
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6206086](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6206086)

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6804870](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6804870)

The plausibility depends a lot on the competence you anticipate from such
processes. But such contradicting signals of competence are pretty typical of
large organizations, especially ones that are silo-ed to some degree.

------
bennyg
So is there any way to verify either account, beyond nudging the benefit of
the doubt in the company with higher journalistic integrity's favor (AP)?

~~~
latj
The two stories arent mutually exclusive.

According to Newsweek the man acknowledged that he had worked on bitcoin: "I
am no longer involved in that and I cannot discuss it"

AP says the main is denying he ever worked on bitcoin.

He very well could have said both of those things.

~~~
declan
Imagine this: Dorian Nakamoto was a former DoD contractor working on
classified project and was not Mr. Bitcoin.

A woman started (from his perspective) stalking him, emailing him under false
pretenses, phoning him, calling his son, and then showing up at his house in
person. He called the cops to keep this stalker (again, from his perspective)
away from his house. She yelled some questions at him from a distance and he
might have thought she was asking about DoD work. "No longer involved and
cannot discuss" is a reasonable answer. As well as: Don't come back.

I asked Newsweek's editor in chief a few hours ago about any recording:
[https://twitter.com/declanm/status/441713108763951104](https://twitter.com/declanm/status/441713108763951104)

No response.

~~~
latj
I knew I should be weary of the writer after this:

"Satoshi Nakamoto's 2008 online proposal also hints at his age, with the odd
reference to "disk space" \- something that hasn't been an issue since the
last millennium"

1\. Showing great concern for the small details, side cases, resource
conservation is a timeless and ageless sign of a good programmer.

2\. Disk space is most certainly still an issue.

------
rjzzleep
why are we up voting these threads? so someone posts this fancy story about
the bitcoin founder he finally found, which for all we know could be false.

yet, we have nothing better to up vote than every major news outlets satoshi
nakamoto story.

~~~
cjensen
Because AP is the only news service that has been granted an interview.

------
fatbat
From article "exclusive two-hour interview" but then no link?

~~~
declan
AP almost certainly audio recorded it (at every news organization I've worked
for it would be standard practice). But that doesn't mean they'll post the
audio, or that there was video.

Also: they'll do a writethru soon enough.

~~~
declan
Update: writethru is up with important details.

