

Nokia: "We will not adopt Windows Phone environment as it is seen today" - vilpponen
http://www.arcticstartup.com/2011/04/29/some-more-on-the-nokia-microsoft-partnership

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edw
Seems like there are a lot of Nokia people doing a lot of rationalizing about
whether Nokia's the top or bottom in their new relationship with Microsoft.
Exhibit A:

"In this question [Kai Öistämö of Nokia] revealed that Microsoft has actually
partnered with Nokia to include Nokia Maps in all their service platforms."

 _Sure_ it did.

Regarding the UI customization, this is just delusional-slash-magical thinking
that is par for the course with makers of commodity products under the thumb
of their commodifier-master. They're always thinking that their "value add" is
going to make them stand out when in fact it makes them like one more art
student with dyed hair in the oh-so-individual clone army: interchangeably
weird.

~~~
prewett
"Interchangeably weird": that is a great description of extreme individualism!

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S_A_P
My take on this- how much can they really modify here and make sure they don't
break compatibility with the 3rd party apps? If things were not so dire that
they needed to dump a platform they have years invested in, is it really
smart(arrogant?) to think that the OS that has actually shipped and seems to
be pretty good is not good enough for them?

~~~
brudgers
Since Windows Phone is based on .NET, a lot of changes can be made by Nokia
without breaking compatibility with third party applications, e.g. .NET allows
multiple versions of a library to exist simultaneously for different
applications because it was architected with backwards and forwards
compatibility in mind.

~~~
cube13
.NET isn't what allows that to happen, though, since, AFAIK, MS has not
committed to binary compatibility between .NET versions. While the framework
makes it easier to leverage these features(you can still use it with non-
managed C++ but it's quite annoying to get working), the Windows kernel is
what allows the multiple versions to exist.

In the case of .NET, it's the side-by-side deployment of the .NET runtimes
that allow multiple versions to be present on the system at the same time.

~~~
daeken
> the Windows kernel is what allows the multiple versions to exist.

I don't think you know what the Windows kernel does. Multiple library versions
have nothing to do with the kernel because 1) the kernel doesn't know anything
about libraries, 2) the kernel doesn't do userspace binary loading (even for
completely unmanaged code), and 3) the kernel does nothing at all with .NET.

Side-by-side deployment of binaries is actually completely separate from the
functionality in .NET that allows multiple versions, which is the GAC (Global
Assembly Cache); SxS binaries (which are used by unmanaged code) are
completely separate, although they both reference their respective binaries
via manifest files.

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crs
"Secondly, another big client of the company, the operators, unanimously voted
for a partnership with Microsoft as this will bring a third contender to the
marketplace."

That sentence stood out the most from that article. For Nokia to say they
choose this partnership because the operators want another choice seems insane
to me. Basically I am interpreting that to mean the operators want more
platforms to help give them leverage when negotiating with phone manufactures.
Which could potential hurt Nokia in the future too.

Am I reading to much into this, or does Nokia's logic there strike anyone else
as funny too?

~~~
r00fus
No what this means is that the operators don't want to be stuck with Android
vs. iOS; they would prefer a _strong_ third option, which would be Nokia/MS.

Back in 2006, operators used to have dozens of manufacturers of smartphones at
their disposal each with relatively weak OS platforms (RIM/Blackberry being
the top at the time).

Then the iPhone came out and disrupted that market by offering the iOS
platform. Then Android matured (using some iOS cues) and became the 2nd
leading platform.

Right now, the third platform (Blackberry) is getting weaker by the day, while
WP7 is not gaining traction. So a combined Nokia/MS could provide a strong 3rd
option for worldwide operators.

None of this makes sense unless Nokia is the preferred manufacturer for
Microsoft and not just another commoditized handset maker of Windows phones.

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matheusalmeida
WP7 UI/UX looks very good. I don't think UI is the strongest strength in Nokia
phones so I don't know how they can improve on that... Probably better
integration with OVI apps/maps ? Or they can make it worse to be more Nokia-
like?

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kogir
Given that Nokia owns Navteq, my interpretation of "Microsoft has actually
partnered with Nokia to include Nokia Maps in all their service platforms" is
that Microsoft will use Navteq data everywhere.

Microsoft's big sell to developers has been freedom from device targeting. I'd
be very surprised if they allow Nokia to change any fundamental elements,
including Live Tiles and Notifications.

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poundy
What many people probably don't know is that Nokia started as a company
manufacturing paper in 1868, it moved into electricity generation, footwear,
etc before creating the first phone in 1960s (100 years after it started). It
is hard to find a company that survived this long in business.

I wish they do well, but the MS path does not seem right.

~~~
hvs
Now that's what I call, "pivoting"!

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sankara
My first phone was a Nokia. My subsequent phones were Nokia too. All these
phones predate the iPhone era. Nokia's phone were rock solid. One even
survived a fall from the first floor with minor scratches. But their interface
was one of the clumsiest; inconsistent, not very user friendly and sometimes
not very usable. The only two things I remember doing is messaging and phone
calls. I haven't got my hands on a WP7 yet. But judging by my ZuneHD I'm sure
the interface must be very good. So far I was hoping that the deal would bring
a solid phone with a pretty interface to the market. But now it's obvious,
it's going to be another superb phone spoiled by the OS and the interface.

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michaelcampbell
> In the video Öistämö goes over once more why Nokia decided to partner with
> Microsoft ...

A couple $billion reasons come to mind right off the top of my head.

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keso
I don't understand the negative and suspicious comments. How is this different
from HTC Sense and Samsung TouchWiz in Android phones?

~~~
glhaynes
People have positive feelings toward W7P even if only because it is novel UI-
wise. People don't have positive feelings toward Nokia's UI work... let's just
say that.

~~~
keso
Oh yes I agree, the UIs are horrible. I think Nokia wants and needs to make
current Nokia users happy with the new phones by implementing "Nokiaisms"
(even though the underlying OS will change).

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Kilimanjaro
Nokia, an agonizing downward spiral into irrelevance.

~~~
conover
I wouldn't consider 30%+ percent of the global mobile phone market irrelevant.
There market share is, in fact, up in the 4th quarter of 2010 according to
Wikipedia.

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yason
This won't end well. If they can't communicate a clear focus that doesn't
change or require expanding on the details further, they probably don't have
one.

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vilpponen
These are interesting comments from Nokia in the light of their partnership
with Microsoft. Most likely this would mean Nokia will change the UI of the
Windows Phone environment to their taste.

Secondly: According to Nokia, Microsoft will be adopting Ovi Maps to all their
services in the future.

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iaskwhy
This should be clarified as I would like to invest on the WP7 platform due to
Nokia being pushing it on their upcoming mobile phones. I was expecting them
to have some success if they didn't change anything at all on WP7 but this
makes me think otherwise...

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cdesmar
Umm.. Live tiles are a huge part of windows phone dev environment. Not sure
you could change much on the home screen.

Maybe rounded corners? But why bother?

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yalogin
What Nokia needs right now is to get phones out into the market now. The more
they delay the more they lose mind share. They are not letting go of the "we
know how to write an OS" mentality. Sure they can do it but they went with
Microsoft because they don't want to. They should just slap the OS on to their
phones and start pushing them out.

Also the current Windows UI is pretty damn good (from what I heard) so not
sure what they want to do more.

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cooldeal
Well, I don't mind much as long there's no fragmentation of the developer
experience. But given Nokia's previous forays into UI development, I think
it's best that they leave it to MS.

~~~
rbanffy
> I think it's best that they leave it to MS.

If they do it, they'll be a commodity phone maker and will have to compete in
price with other WP7 phone makers. All three of them.

~~~
alex_c
If they don't, past experience suggests they'll end up with smartphones that
no one in North America will want to buy.

~~~
rbanffy
> they'll end up with smartphones that no one in North America will want to
> buy.

It's not like everyone in NA wants to buy a WP7 phone now. If they change the
UI enough, maybe someone will want it.

~~~
alex_c
I don't disagree. I just haven't seen any evidence from Nokia, based on their
own UIs, that they can make the WP7 UI _more_ desirable, rather than less or
the same.

~~~
rbanffy
Having the choice between 100% certain doom and 95% certain doom, I'd go for
the second. Just not very enthusiastically.

~~~
wmf
I think this argument could go either way. As a "commodity" WP7 phone maker,
Nokia might be able to get 20% of the WP7 market on brand recognition alone.
But a crappified version of WP7 might earn them 0% of the market instead.

~~~
com
As someone who values a fairly broad oligarchy of phone ecosystems, I'm
frightened that Nokia will have 20% of a WP7 market that is perhaps a little
more than one or two million devices per year, and stagnant.

WP7 (or 8 for that matter) isn't going to be helped in this kind of scenario
by a bleeding vendor that can't sell more than a few hundred thousand devices.
As consumers, we're not going to be helped by the death-by-a-thousand-
downsizings of Nokia (a business that has a good record otherwise of
innovation in technology and market development, at least until the last few
years) and a side show of a user community that can't support development of
innovative software and business models.

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shareme
SO in other words Nokia gets to screw up another mobile interface, SWEET!

~~~
rbanffy
If nobody uses it, will it really be screwed?

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teyc
At the moment, I believe it is only the Android phones which sport GPS.
(Although Nokia feature phones already have Ovimaps). Bringing maps to the
table means WP7 will be on par with Android on such a basic feature.

Does this mean MS has basically bought themselves a mapping company for a
couple billion dollars? On top of it, they've secured a solid brand with a
good distribution channel and pre-existing relationship with carriers. It
sounds like a good deal for MS to me.

As for who is going to be dictating who, I believe Nokia is mistaken. MS will
drive the relationship because MS owns the platform, not Nokia. This is
something even HP and Samsung realizes. I'm surprised Nokia has palmed off
Symbian to Accenture so quickly. Perhaps this is to shake out the management
tree a little bit.

~~~
cooldeal
>At the moment, I believe it is only the Android phones which sport GPS.

Huh, almost every smartphone from the last 4 years sport GPS. What the
agreement means is that Bing maps will be able to use Ovi maps in places where
it's currently lacking, i.e Europe and Asia.

~~~
WrkInProgress
I think what 'teyc' meant was that Android is the only platform that offers
free turn by turn navigation among the major platforms.

Nokia has provided this recently with their version of Ovi Maps as well (not
sure if it's free on all S60 devices). So it is possible that the Ovi Maps &
Bing Maps integration may include bringing the free turn by turn navigation to
Windows Phone 7.

~~~
teyc
Thanks.

