
The Impossible Music of Black MIDI - GotAnyMegadeth
http://rhizome.org/editorial/2013/sep/23/impossible-music-black-midi/
======
baldfat
I immediately thought of a quote from the movie Amadaus (About Mozart)

EMPEROR: Of course I do. It's very good. Of course now and then - just now and
then - it gets a touch elaborate.

MOZART: What do you mean, Sire?

EMPEROR: Well, I mean occasionally it seems to have, how shall one say? [he
stops in difficulty; turning to Orsini-Rosenberg] How shall one say, Director?

ORSINI-ROSENBERG: Too many notes, Your Majesty?

EMPEROR: Exactly. Very well put. Too many notes.

MOZART: I don't understand. There are just as many notes, Majesty, as are
required. Neither more nor less.

EMPEROR: My dear fellow, there are in fact only so many notes the ear can hear
in the course of an evening. I think I'm right in saying that, aren't I, Court
Composer?

SALIERI: Yes! yes! er, on the whole, yes, Majesty.

MOZART: But this is absurd!

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dCud8H7z7vU](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dCud8H7z7vU)

This certainly is an interesting area to explorer musically. Want can we do
with a piano if we had more than ten notes to play at a time. Right now it is
HOW many can we play and still sound musical from the samples I saw.

~~~
joeyspn
It has been proved that the subconscious finds more pleasurable musical
simplicity or pieces that despite having _many notes_ can be reduced to simple
patterns:

 _There is a long held theory that the subconscious mind can recognise
patterns within complex data and that we are hardwired to find simple patterns
pleasurable. Dr Nicholas Hudson used 'lossless' music compression programs to
mimic the brain's ability to condense audio information. He compared the
amount of compressibility of random noise to a wide range of music including
classical, techno, rock, and pop, and found that, while random noise could
only be compressed to 86% of its original file size, and techno, rock, and pop
to about 60%, the apparently complex Beethoven's 3rd Symphony compressed to
40%._

[http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/01/110120073507.ht...](http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/01/110120073507.htm)

Music is very complex, you need to master harmony to make many notes sound as
a whole and interconnected piece. That's the secret:

Less is more. "More notes" is not necessarily better.

~~~
hebdo
Random noise cannot be (on average) loselessly compressed, not even by
0.0000001% of the original size. To see that it is the case it is sufficient
to notice that a compression algorithm is essentially a way to reorder all
possible inputs, all at once, and then apply the pigeonhole principle. Kind of
similar to the proof that if a loseless compression algorithm shortens at
least one input, it must also extend at least one.

Claiming that there exists an algorithm that loselessly compresses random
noise to 86% of the original size is just wrong.

~~~
dspig
It could have been pink noise rather than white (an argument for using it here
would be it has a more similar spectral content to music). Pink noise
definitely compresses more though still maybe not that much.

------
reviseddamage
The weirdest thing: my son who is autistic is fascinated by this music and
can't seem to let go. He keeps watching/listening to every "black MIDI" out
there on youtube.

~~~
motoboi
Isn't some of the autistic spectrum attached to complexity and organization?

Maybe you son is fascinated by the complexity and order of those pieces.

~~~
reviseddamage
I think you're right. he finds order in what i perceive as disorder. I love
that he loves that.

~~~
mbrock
:) I'm a little curious if your son would like this tune by Mats & Morgan
Band.

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=di9xaUBKY5I](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=di9xaUBKY5I)

~~~
reviseddamage
i'll have him listen to it tonight and let you know. :)

~~~
reviseddamage
So i made him listen to it and he didn't seem interested. He instead turned to
his staple videos instead, some black midi and lot, lot of "Klasky Csupo."

~~~
mbrock
Haha, alright!

------
hammock
Has anyone ever created an "inverted" song? For example, take the Ode to Joy
melody and play every other note BUT that one. Maybe limit yourself to one
octave so it's at least somewhat listenable. Wonder what that would sound
like.

~~~
pidg
Yes, it's been done by some prominent composers. It doesn't always sound good
without some tweaking!

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inversion_%28music%29#Melodies](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inversion_%28music%29#Melodies)

~~~
fragsworth
> When applied to melodies, the inversion of a given melody is the melody
> turned upside-down.

That's a lot different from what the original comment was asking for.

------
avian
I guess the "speaking piano" could also classify as black MIDI:

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=muCPjK4nGY4](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=muCPjK4nGY4)

~~~
0xdeadbeefbabe
Seems like black MIDI could also speak.

------
felipebueno
That's facinating!

If you are reading this comment watch this [Black MIDI] Synthesia – "Nyan
Trololol" | Rainbow Tylenol & Nyan Cat Remix ~ BusiedGem

[https://youtu.be/zqan54VUSq0](https://youtu.be/zqan54VUSq0)

You are welcome ;)

~~~
egypturnash
Holy shit that is gorgeous. It's like the song is its own visualizer when
played back this way. Those rotating rainbows...

------
aclissold
This is fascinating! They took a medium I had always classified as a cheap
imitation of a real piano, and accentuated its strengths to make it something
incredibly! Blocks of notes for percussion, impossibly fast trills for a
different timbre of sustained notes, melodies that are detectable aurally but
not visually... Awesome!

~~~
bhrgunatha
> They took a medium I had always classified as a cheap imitation of a real
> piano

It's all down to the sound generator at the other end of the MIDI cable
though. Electric piano's are pretty amazing sounding these days. Lots of music
creation software uses sampled, live instruments and some of those are
recorded at very high quality. All of which can be driven through MIDI too,
although there are obvious limitations to the way a professional can play a
real piano, most people would be hard-pressed to tell the difference in a
blind test.

Awesome indeed!

------
s_kilk
Pretty cool, but the note-counts are a bit less impressive when you realize
they're using big blocks of notes to simulate percussion and noise/pads.

------
6stringmerc
Mmmm. Reminds me of some of the most interesting Drum & Bass that I come
across in my listening / purchasing. From what I can tell, it has about the
same appeal haha.

I've been legitimately impressed by the abilities of certain artists to really
push the boundaries and limits - in my opinion - of packing in musicality in
the D&B platform. One I can point to would be Camo & Krooked[0]. Another that
sort of crosses into bass music would be Knife Party[1]. What they have in
common, to my ears, is that they're able to embrace the full spectrum of
available sounds. High peaks and really, really deep bass. Then, with so much
digital control, they can go up and down, place certain sounds in certain
tonal areas...it's just amazing to me.

One of the things that infuriates me about music commentary is the tired
refrain of "rock is dead" or "music isn't original anymore" because frankly,
they're not true. Rock continues to be a broad genre, and I really see
electronic-production tunes like Skrillex an extension of rock and metal in
that it appeals to a younger audience (predominately) and is very abrasive to
'traditional' ears.

Music is really going through a metamorphasis of innovation thanks to software
like Ableton and the numerous brilliant synths out there. It's one thing to
say "I don't like that music" but it's completely dishonest to say nothing's
original anymore. Yes, there will always be 'trend jumpers' and some formulaic
stuff (it goes for all genres, and specifically anything Max Martin touches),
but now and then, BAM. Something shows up and moves the needle.

[0] Camo & Krooked - Let's Get Dirty -
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IL5H38bpvFA](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IL5H38bpvFA)

[1] Knife Party - Resistance -
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DwqUGkR9yh8](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DwqUGkR9yh8)

~~~
pistle
You are not mentioning the whole drill'n'bass era/subgenre.

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2y7DVbFado0](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2y7DVbFado0)

4 minutes in... there were a few people/groups that did this style for a
while. Aphex Twin was the most popular artist that crossed into this
territory, but Venetian and others took it a bit more "purely" into the drill
area.

Sonically and technically, compared to the black MIDI thing, it's more open-
ended.

The limitations to this area are the focus on percussive elements vs. tearing
apart other pieces of the palette with as much care.

~~~
laumars
I'd say Autechre - Gantz Graf[1] was a closer match as it has the dense
production while still having some essence of a melody (albeit in the less
traditional sense of the term).

But since we're talking about Aphex Twin, Mt Saint Michel[2] deserves an
honorable mention. (bonus points to anyone who's familiar with the Tate Modern
exhibit that was based on this track and a video of a cyborg monkey drumming)

[1]
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ev3vENli7wQ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ev3vENli7wQ)

[2]
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wlr8duyToKo](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wlr8duyToKo)

------
skywhopper
The potential artistic value here doesn't appear to be so much in the pure
number of notes, which is not particularly impressive in itself, given that
MIDI files are easily auto-generated. But the examples given remind me most of
all of the old early days of overdriving vacuum-tube based amplifiers till you
got the crunching of the waveforms and created an entirely new sound.

Here, the folks creating these files are creating new kinds of sounds by
overdriving their MIDI synths, essentially. By providing more notes than can
actually be generated at once, or at rates faster than the chosen synth patch
can coherently render, you can achieve new and unplanned sounds and effects.

Essentially the same idea as getting the explosion-type of sounds out of old
8-bit PCM synths in game consoles by overloading the input beyond spec.

------
dwiel
Lubomyr Melnyk does something similar by hand on a real piano.

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LICgfSqZcdg](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LICgfSqZcdg)

------
GFK_of_xmaspast
The music looks incredibly dense, but I wonder what would happen if you took a
symphonic score and put all the notes on the same staff. (and also wonder if
they could get significant reduction in note count by using different
instruments besides a piano)

------
beat
As much fun as the black MIDI is, you should also check out the music of
Conlon Nancarrow, who was mentioned prominently at the beginning of the
article. Unlike black MIDI, which tends strongly to the metronomic behavior of
drum machines and modern computerized music, Nancarrow's music _swings_. His
heart wasn't in 8 bit video game sounds, but rather in 20th century avant-
garde classical and jazz.

The closest tonal reference for most people would be certain kinds of
soundtrack music, especially older mystery movies and kaiju films from Japan.
But it's more musically _interesting_ , and more _human_ , than the relatively
simplistic sounds of black MIDI.

Dig it, man.

------
userbinator
If these were in the form of player piano rolls, they'd probably have a
similar effect to this:

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lace_card](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lace_card)

------
andrewclunn
I'm synesthetic and this is AMAZING! How did I not know this genre existed
before now?

------
greyhat
Along the same lines, but perhaps more accessible, and played with a Yamaha
Disklavier player piano:

[http://www.kylegann.com/BudRanBackOut.mp3](http://www.kylegann.com/BudRanBackOut.mp3)

Kyle Gann - Bud Ran Back Out (Mechanical Piano Study No. 6) (2001) "The
question was whether I could make the Disklavier respond as fast as Bud Powell
played. Doubting that I could surpass him, I added some tricks that I hope
Powell might have envied, such as playing his ultrafast melodies in chromatic
sixths and triple octaves, and simultaneous melodies in tempo ratios of 7
against 8 against 9. It was time for technology to provide a new spin on
Thelonious Monk's composition _In Walked Bud_. The piece is dedicated to
Thurman Barker."

More here:

[http://www.kylegann.com/Gannmusic.html](http://www.kylegann.com/Gannmusic.html)

[http://www.kylegann.com/DisklavierStudiesnotes.html](http://www.kylegann.com/DisklavierStudiesnotes.html)

------
sprokolopolis
A normally electronic musician, Dan Deacon, has used some very complex player
piano arrangements. When he recorded his album Bromst, they set up multiple
MIDI player pianos to play the midi arrangements. What I found very
interesting is that the density of the notes actually builds up to a very full
and soothing (to me) sound, when played on the analogue instruments rather
than on a computer. This is an album I play when driving through the woods or
staring at the stars. There is texture to be heard from all of the hammering
keys, but the notes all combine to a smoother and very meditative, calming,
uplifting sound. I feel like like that fullness of sound from the analogue
instrument allows the listener to here the overarching melodies, rather than
focus on how many notes are being played.

Here is a link to a documentary about the recording of the album linked to a
visual of the pianos playing:

[https://youtu.be/TPg4Vcr56F0?t=785](https://youtu.be/TPg4Vcr56F0?t=785)

------
pdkl95
There's a "too many notes" version of Bad Apple? Hmm... I think I'll stick
with marasy8's incredible cover[1] of the song.

Not that there is anything wrong with noise. As a fan of CCCC (Mayuko
Hino)[2], I have often thought noise is best when it is played directly
(analog), instead of the digital perfection of MIDI. I like my digital noise
when it's written in Fourth[3].

[1]
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hr7uwOp0Yck](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hr7uwOp0Yck)

[2]
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kXbb-e0RRc0](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kXbb-e0RRc0)

[3] [http://pelulamu.net/ibniz/](http://pelulamu.net/ibniz/) (warning: turn
down the volume - raw square waves at the beginning!)

------
autarch
This isn't particularly novel. Two good historical examples besides Conlon
Nancarrow are:

* Krzysztof Penderecki's Threnody to the Victims of Hiroshima - [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HilGthRhwP8](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HilGthRhwP8) (music + animated score)

* George Crumb's Black Angels - [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=11o8nHk-l_o](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=11o8nHk-l_o) \- (images from the score via [https://goo.gl/2rHYAc](https://goo.gl/2rHYAc))

------
boomlinde
It's interesting how this sort of blurs the line between composition and sound
design. At some point I would only really call these "notes" in the strictly
technical sense that they are encoded as such in the MIDI stream, while the
compositions themselves seem like relatively straight forward songs. In that
sense, songs like Circus Galop (written for player piano) are more interesting
compositionally.

------
digi_owl
Their examples reminded me of listening to a modem going all out. At points it
simply turns into a hiss.

------
kmenzel
It's amazing how complicated you can make something look with very low midi
velocities...

------
thebouv
What I find particularly interesting to watch is the patterns drawn by some of
those YouTube videos when the notes are struck. A visual art as well as the
sound.

------
TheOtherHobbes
Even more notes:

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=muCPjK4nGY4](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=muCPjK4nGY4)

------
joeyspn
"Less is more" \- Ludwig Mies Van Der Rohe

~~~
mbrock
"More is more" \- Yngwie Malmsteen

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QHZ48AE3TOI](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QHZ48AE3TOI)

~~~
cubano
And his amps definitely go to 11...

I was a huge Yngwie fan back when I was into guitar music...his "Rising Force"
album simply blew me away.

"Icarus' Dream Suite Op. 4" has to be one of the best guitar songs ever
written and executed.

I actually stopped trying to be a guitar-hero after studying that album.

------
dietrichepp
It is a little rough to see this on the front page for so long when I
submitted the exact same link and title 3 hours earlier. :-(

------
apalmer
Not really fundamentally interesting from a musical standpoint. Only
'interesting' part of it is looks funny on paper...

~~~
motoboi
To mee, it seems like they arrange a song for several instruments, like an
orchestra, and just put all notes on the same midi instrument.

------
sideshowb
Too many notes?
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q_UsmvtyxEI](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q_UsmvtyxEI)

(To clarify - I feel the clip from Amadeus is somewhat amusing in this
context, but to those who critique black midi as music, I don't think it is
really ... it's art).

------
omginternets
It's a shame that none of this music is ... well... _enjoyable_.

~~~
mbrock
Sure it is. It just depends on what you enjoy. It's called subjective
experience and it's a pretty big deal for art. In my experience, that "Bad
Apple" tune in the article is sublime, strange, beautiful, funny, and novel,
all enjoyable characteristics.

~~~
omginternets
>It's called subjective experience and it's a pretty big deal for art

Yes, I know. What I did was called a quip, and I thought the fine people of
Hacker News had a sense of humor.

Surely you'll admit that this is far less accessible, in terms of enjoyment,
than a lot of other music.

~~~
mbrock
You may have noticed that my rejoinder was not entirely serious either.

Of course it's less accessible. In terms of enjoyment though, I actively seek
out non-accessible music, because some of it seems to tickle a particular
funny-bone and I don't find that in accessible music.

The music I put on to really enjoy on a visceral level is stuff that I can't
even play ten seconds of in public settings without people yelling at me.

I dunno, people seem to find even this stuff inaccessible, but it's some of my
favorite music ever:

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=di9xaUBKY5I](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=di9xaUBKY5I)

~~~
benplumley
Thank you for posting that video link! I'm listening to the album
ProgXprimetal now for the first time and it's incredible.

~~~
mbrock
I haven't even heard of that! Oh, it's another project with the drummer,
Morgan Ågren. He does a lot of cool stuff (including the educational drumming
TV show from which that link was a clip).

While googling I found a kickstarted documentary about him from 2013.

[https://vimeo.com/ondemand/morgan](https://vimeo.com/ondemand/morgan)

I think I'll watch it right now. :)

Mats Öberg, the keyboardist, is also an excellent jazz pianist and seems to
play on loads of new Swedish jazz records. Here's him with his own jazz trio.
He also has two very beautiful solo piano albums (they're on Spotify and
iTunes).

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2tOykrVfIgc](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2tOykrVfIgc)

While I'm geeking out... that Mats/Morgan song "Hollmervalsen" is named for
Lars Hollmer ("Hollmer waltz"), a composer who played accordion and keyboard
and was an important part of the Swedish progressive music scene in the
60s/60s. That scene split into a more political part and a more freaky part,
and we're talking about the freaky part.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lars_Hollmer](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lars_Hollmer)

His band Samla Mammas Manna ("Gather Mother's Manna") made some truly
remarkable music. They took influences from Swedish folk music and combined it
with Zappa-ish jazz rock. With the song "Musmjölkningsmaskinen" ("The Mouse
Milking Machine") from 1974 you can understand they were an influence on Mats
& Morgan.

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FhDbgp1RX4M](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FhDbgp1RX4M)

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samla_Mammas_Manna](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samla_Mammas_Manna)

------
ph0rque
So, it's like the high-frequency trading of music then.

------
DanBC
There's a bit of discussion from 2 years ago:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6640963](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6640963)

~~~
untothebreach
There is also another post from 3 hours before this one:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10544633](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10544633)

~~~
oneeyedpigeon
How is that even possible?

Edit: OK, since someone's going to downvote me for asking that question, I'll
add a bit more context:

Duplicate submissions are supposed to be ignored. The URLs for these two
submissions appear to be identical, so my question stands: how has this
happened?

~~~
brudgers
Perhaps both submitted URL's were different but resolved to the same URL by
HN's software?

~~~
neogodless
So wouldn't HN's software detect "identical resolved URLs"?

