
Ask HN: How can I offer to work unpaid in order to get my foot in the door? - mkwenhua
I know it sounds weird, but I can&#x27;t figure out how to even get opportunity to interview.<p>So 10 months ago I started self-studying programming from C to Ruby to JS. And at the time I was under the impression that building out several applications and creating a portfolio site http:&#x2F;&#x2F;petehalloran.herokuapp.com that has many interactive projects, a blog and a social networking app this is the overview:https:&#x2F;&#x2F;youtu.be&#x2F;-rqS7RoAQrk?t=37s they can try out would at least get me an interview or a response of some sort.<p>But now I realize(which is understandable), that they&#x27;re too busy, and all they do is take a glance at my resume see no relevant experience and then throw out my resume. I know this because every company I applied for I spent hours look at their product and writing out a cover letter with links to github and videos of projects I have done that applies to the position.<p>So knowing that 1. Recruiters don&#x27;t care about demonstrations of applications built 2. No matter what I write my resume will be an automatic rejection. I would like to know how can I in anyway get my foot in the door, I would try and apply for internships, but those are only for students, and once again my resume is a death blow.<p>Do you think if I send companies an email asking if I could somehow join and contribute?<p>Anyways I am not trying to shamelessly promote myself, I am just completely lost about how this all works but if you&#x27;d like a free Rails&#x2F;Node developer let me know you can see some things I have done here: https:&#x2F;&#x2F;www.youtube.com&#x2F;channel&#x2F;UCQAYWQM5y83SGLabPFunPOg
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liquidcool
Few things. Are you on LinkedIn? If not, you are invisible to recruiters. It
also suggests you're not doing much networking.

Most good companies don't require a college degree, but "entry level" often
assumes one. You've been studying CS for 10 months and are competing against
those who've studied it for 4 years, perhaps with job experience to boot.

Your best bet is to become a contributor to a popular open source project. In
addition to that, I agree you need to network with engineers and managers
because recruiters won't feel comfortable submitting you at this point.

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gamechangr
Your resume isn't really necessary in applying. Building things are nice, but
you really need a network.

GO TO MEETUPS

That's by far your best strategy. Ask to "drop by the office or join in for a
standup. Most companies are really open (and interested) in having new talent
come through.

IF MEETUPS AREN'T WORKING, THEN YOU HAVE TO CREATE AN ONLINE NETWORK.

Comment more on HN, stackoverflow, even Quora will get you into more
conversations.

That's my two cents :)

~~~
mkwenhua
Well I am in Chicago, and I just can't seem to find any good networking
events. But I going to go to a Hack-a-thon this weekend. Thanks for the reply,
I really appreciate it!

~~~
kasey_junk
Just scanning meetup I saw a ruby meet up on sat. & 3 or 4 other tech meetups
in the next couple of days.

If you think that there are no tech networking events in Chicago, the third
largest city in the US and the heart of several high tech industries, that is
probably the root cause of your issue.

~~~
mkwenhua
Well I guess what I am saying is not that they don't exist it's just not many.
For example I went to 4 Ruby meetups and Chicago and while fun, they're
essentially Dev Bootcamp events where people learn things like writing blocks.
The weird thing is, I went to a Ruby meetup in Ann Arbor, and there it was all
industry professionals and coders. I tried to find other non ruby meetups, but
they're few and far between.

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ac2u
I'm guessing your demos, like the data structures visualizations in D3 aim to
show that you're into the computer science as well as showing off that you're
familiar with D3.

If you learn the topics best by combining them, by all means keep doing that,
but what I would stress that the technique which is the best way to learn is
not always the best way to demonstrate understanding.

An employer looking for a junior or intern doesn't need mastery right now,
they're simply looking for someone who can get started without too much hand
holding and learn as they produce.

For example, if you say that you're studying computer science topics, and
write a small blog post on sorting algorithms, I'll believe you.

If you say you're learning D3 and have a demo page with a few graphs or
circles. I'll believe you.

If you say you're learning both, and combine it into a site which has lots of
whizz-bang animations and vizualisations of data structures, I'll still
believe you, but the bugginess of the site will lead me to be concerned that
you'd power through the work without enough care.

The Js behind this
([https://github.com/MKwenhua/petecvHeroku/blob/98643f3ac831b1...](https://github.com/MKwenhua/petecvHeroku/blob/98643f3ac831b1fe61943406d9bd352cf64baa22/app/assets/javascripts/landingPage.js))
reflects someone that is indeed scoping out different tech, but the code lacks
some software engineering rigour (mixing jQuery use and native browser APIs
suggests a copy/paste approach might have been in play to some degree, again,
fine for learning, not for production code).

But that's ok. The rigour can be developed with time and mentoring when you
have your foot in the door.

What I'm saying is that you can simplify a lot of your demos in order to get
your foot in the door, don't feel the need to show that you can take on
everything right away.

Instead of a site where everything flies into place with potential bugs in
tow, simplify down to a more static site. You can still demonstrate your D3
skills with simple demos and your computer science findings with short blog
posts.

If you'd like to chat more or have me elaborate, ping me on twitter or
something as I don't like sharing email on HN.

~~~
ac2u
Also, to more directly answer your question:

Don't work for free for a commercial organisation that will profit from your
labour, it devalues you and attracts people looking to exploit you.

The other folks here mentioning meetups and similar events are on point here.

~~~
mkwenhua
Also you're 100% correct about the D3 data structures thing. The reason I did
it was I fear as a self taught guy people will have certain assumptions about
me. And about the working for free, I agree that it opens me up for
exploitation. But id rather be exploited and have a company profit off me if
it means I can start working. Spending hours writing out cover letters to only
get ignored completely destroys my self confidence. Anyways my email is
MKwenhua101@gmail.com

------
gesman
You never get what you deserve.

You always get what you negotiate.

So cut this crap with unpaid work. You'll only get non-existent clients.

------
rnovak
So, I'll give you my thoughts, and maybe some advice, but please take it with
a grain of salt. Some of your comments say your in the Chicago area, and I
definitely live in a different part of the country, so don't feel like I'm
trying to say my experience is universal.

I want to disclaim that while some companies may _say_ a degree is necessary,
there are very few that actually enforce that. I've had several offers in
principle (as in a written offer was extended) well before I had a degree, and
from companies most probably wouldn't believe. While it's definitely harder to
get in the door, it's likely not impossible.

However I'd also like to point out that as you may have read from several
comment threads, the majority of a software-developers life doesn't revolve
around Computer Science. I mean the last time I really had to consider whether
something was Turing complete was, well, it was in hardware development, but
that's beside the point.

There are many aspects of programming that aren't taught in CS books.
Decomposing requirements, process & methodology, and so many others. I've read
a lot of people say that when they interview, they look for fit.

So, with that in mind, I'd suggest stepping away from trying to show off
_just_ your CS chops, but actually solve _interesting_ problems to you. It's
sort of funny to me, because your headline sort of describes open source
software. For me, contributing to open source allows me to write software that
I'm actually passionate about, instead of just solving interesting problems
for a company that I'm kind of ambivalent about.

As far as getting your foot actually in the door, I'd suggest looking for
"software tester" positions. They are usually the low man on the totem pole,
but they are the definition of a foot in the door. I'm sure some people
disagree, but I've worked with several people who completely lacked a formal
education, but started as a software tester somewhere, and worked their way
up. Most of them, instead of just finding bugs & problems, would dig into the
code and try and find out what was going on.

Not to mention, that will give you the chance to learn some of the soft
skills, like communication, process, etc. You could even get your training
done for Agile/Scrum/SixSigma/whatevs, and wind up with a great leg up on the
competition.

Company wise, I'd advise avoiding larger companies, but avoiding true startups
as well (and this may be where I diverge from a lot of people). I'd look for a
company that is established in their field, but still small (30-50 developers,
ish). I think most startups are looking for people that can give in excess of
100%, and while you're learning, it's probably not best to extend yourself
that much.

Anyway, good luck with your search, you seem pretty passionate, and we can
_always_ use more people passionate about software development.

~~~
mkwenhua
Thanks rnovak, I really appreciate the reply. I would definitely say a
downside of my CV website is it focuses on those silly D3 things I made, but
actually 98% of the site is a social network I made that is centered around
finding top music and getting news feeds around the world, you can auto sign
in and try it out if you like. Now this particular app I don't think is for me
personally a "Passion" project but more like "How many things can I cram into
this site in order to get a job type app". There is an old app I made that is
a precursor to an app I am going to make:
[https://youtu.be/rL5WeKeYKWY?t=1m43s](https://youtu.be/rL5WeKeYKWY?t=1m43s) .
I started recently a app that is a real time tutoring module that will be open
source(maybe Khan academy would like it). And it uses Nodejs Socket.io the
data that I record for the draw is instead sent to the other person.

Unfortunately I haven't been able to get started since writing out cover
letters and getting rejected for entry level positions has been all I had time
to do since I started applying.

