
Sledding athletes are taking their lives - mhb
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/26/sports/olympics/olympics-bobsled-suicide-brain-injuries.html
======
JumpCrisscross
> _On Feb. 22, 2013, Morris attached an accelerometer to his helmet, then
> launched his body down a 1,500-meter track at the sliding center in
> Whistler, British Columbia, which is considered the fastest track in the
> world and was a venue for the 2010 Winter Olympics._

Bobsleigh has been a feature of the Winter Olympics since 1924 [1]. Yet it
might have taken until 2013 for someone to measure its g force on its
athletes' heads.

One would think that when something is developed to the point of an
international sport, it's certainly been measured. Been tested. But the
disturbing or revealing or inspiring truth is, most of our normality has not
been scientifically considered.

[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bobsleigh_at_the_Winter_Olympi...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bobsleigh_at_the_Winter_Olympics)

~~~
pengaru
Except measuring G-forces acting on a helmet doesn't directly relate to the
forces acting on the head within it.

~~~
nimih
Why not? To me (a layperson in the physics of helmets and brains), they would
seem to be quite directly related, especially when the cause of the gees is
not related to an impact.

~~~
etrautmann
The helmet is a light mass, which can move relative to the head, and
experience drastically higher g-forces for very short times. Sampling an
accelerometer at kHz rates as a helmet is vibrating (without translating all
of the vibrational energy into the head), will measure larger peak G's than
the head experiences.

For this reason, when studying head impact for football players, they mount
the accelerometers in the mouth guard. This more accurately reflects the real
g-forces, as the teeth (ideally) don't move much relative to the brain during
an impact, and have the appropriate reference frame.

The differences can be extremely large. The peaks reflected in this graph are
absolutely not real and should not be taken literally.

~~~
yk
Yes, but notice that the shock goes sled -> spine -> head -> helmet in
sledding and other player -> helmet -> head in football. So, strapping an
accelerometer onto the helmet looks quite a bit better for sledding. (And
especially for a first measurement.)

~~~
etrautmann
Yep, except in the cases where the head hits the sled or ice, as mentioned in
the article. I suspect these are responsible for large (and artifactual from
the perspective of the brain) transient spikes in measured G-forces

------
nabla9
TBI seem to have huge consequences that are not connected to the TBI.

In the US 2% of the general population is arrested annually. Of those who have
had TBI roughly third. A similar one-third rate was found in a community
sample of children and adolescents with TBI. In death row inmates it's even
more common to have received TBI in childhood.

[https://www.brainline.org/article/traumatic-brain-injury-
pri...](https://www.brainline.org/article/traumatic-brain-injury-prisons-
review)

[https://www.nytimes.com/2001/07/21/arts/damaged-brains-
and-t...](https://www.nytimes.com/2001/07/21/arts/damaged-brains-and-the-
death-penalty.html)

~~~
alex_duf
could that be the other way around? If you're more rowdy, you're more likely
to have had a traumatic brain injury?

~~~
DataGata
They are almost certainly a vicious cycle of TBI increasing the chance for
TBI-related* behaviors in the future. (*either getting or receiving).

------
gnramires
This seems totally unacceptable. We should stop having this sport in the
Olympics (implicitly supporting this madness) -- of course athletes are free
to do as they chose, but we cannot encourage such pointless self-destruction
and misery.

An alternative to save the sport is completely redesign it to limit maximum
accelerations. Usually injuries follow power laws so I doubt even that much
reduction would be necessary (shed maximum accel to 1/3 current and I bet
lifetime injuries could become acceptable). Mandatory equipment changes would
probably help as well.

~~~
matz1
>pointless self-destruction and misery.

Maybe its pointless for you, fair enough but it can be meaningfull for other
people, i myself think it's interesting.

~~~
racl101
Well said.

Depending on people's level of courage, or lackthereof, all sports might seem
like _pointless self-destruction and misery_. Heck, even basketball or ice
curling.

Heck, I would never in my right-mind try grinding a rail on a skateboard after
seeing some kid break his leg on a bad landing.

But just cause it looks insane to me doesn't mean it has no value or merit.

Not to mention that it makes a fun video game on the PS2.

~~~
libraryatnight
I recommend the YouTube rabbit hole of Alex Honnold interviews, whenever he
talks about risk it's interesting.

~~~
stefs
honnold may be a special case. his capabilities of dealing with risk and fear
are exceptional.

~~~
TheRealSteel
I'd say it's partly that, but more a case of survivorship bias; we don't hear
from other solo free climbers because most of them are dead.

~~~
def_true_false
citation needed

Edit: It's not like these climbers never climb with gear. That is, they don't
have to confront the learning curve and fatal consequences at the same time.
They can also learn safely via bouldering, climbing above water and such.

~~~
libraryatnight
Yes, that's sort of why I recommended his interviews, because he's given it a
lot of thought and has interesting things to say about risk (I imagine even if
he initially didn't think a ton about it, people constantly asking has given
him some good answers) in addition to the explanation that these climbs are
prepared for in advance.

------
xkcd-sucks
Anecdotally, I have a friend on a national skeleton team. He says he's a bit
dopey but it's okay because he has a girlfriend to take care of him, and
attributes it to lateral acceleration and breathing difficulty. This is after
maybe 5 years at longest

~~~
cheeze
> but it's okay because he has a girlfriend to take care of him

Is that okay?

~~~
growlist
Well that sentence is ambiguous. It could be that the guy on the skeleton team
said the following:

"I am a bit dopey, but it's okay because I have my girlfriend to take care of
me"

~~~
im3w1l
That's the only way to read I was able to find. What's the other?

~~~
hug
He says he’s a bit dopey, but I’m okay with that because he has a girlfriend
to take care of him.

~~~
kgwgk
In that case the subject of the "attributes it" is lost, while with the "he
says he's a bit dopey but [he says] it's okay" reading it naturally flows into
"and [he] attributes it".

------
gonzo41
This is a pretty sad article. I wonder if they've ever considered g-suits to
mitigate the pressure on the body. I'm not sure if it'd be effective but
fighter pilots have a pretty similar set of extremes that they work in.

~~~
tgsovlerkhgsel
It seems like the pressure isn't the main issue, the vibration/impact is.

Better helmet padding may be able to help significantly here.

~~~
gonzo41
I was thinking along the lines that putting high G pressure on your
circulatory system is probably putting a lot of stress on the brain that
otherwise wound be there. The sled head they talk about seems like it's almost
mild hypooxia or something.

------
SenHeng
Jeremy Clarkson did a pretty good piece on how scary bobsleighs are 10 years
ago on Top Gear. Worth taking a peak to see what all the fuss is about.

[https://youtu.be/xsac2agog48](https://youtu.be/xsac2agog48)

And for those interested in what a skeleton looks and feels like. Here's a
more recent video.

[https://youtu.be/BzxS-3vO6Gw](https://youtu.be/BzxS-3vO6Gw)

------
Noumenon72
This is how the world is shaping up -- winner take all, but so much
competition to be that winner that the winner's life isn't worth it either.

~~~
imtringued
Competition is weird. There is only one winner and the winner probably gets
bored of being the best despite all the sacrifices. Meanwhile all the "losers"
look up to the winner and dream of being the winner themselves. I guess it
boils down to jealousy. Someone has something you don't have, it doesn't
actually matter what the "something" is, it also doesn't matter if you harm
yourself in the process.

~~~
viklove
That's a weird way to look at it; so negative. I think for most people it is
more about pride than jealousy.

------
burlesona
Article isn’t readable on mobile. Any link to just the text?

~~~
thomasz
Can't scroll past the initial video in Firefox either. Seriously, don't fuck
with scrolling.

~~~
Traubenfuchs
Same on Chrome...

------
WalterBright
How terribly sad. Perhaps the speeds of the sled tracks could be reduced. A
helmet designed to blunt the millisecond g force spikes could also be
developed.

~~~
elgenie
The issue with helmet design is likely the same one football players face:
that the place the impact absorbing material needs to go is between skull and
brain. There’s no wearable helmet that’s going to change the result of skull
being decelerated or accelerated as the brain keeps going.

A strap or some padding that absorbs fleeting contact with the ice maybe has a
chance to make a difference, but there are so few people involved in these
sports that testing changes scientifically will be very hard.

~~~
CGamesPlay
I'm no expert on helmet design, but surely you can absorb that force
elsewhere, as long as the acceleration on the skull is damped? Degenerate
case: a car's airbag does not go between my brain and my skull, yet it does
prevent my brain from slamming into my skull.

~~~
selectodude
No it doesn't, it prevents your skull from slamming into the steering wheel,
lowering the forces inside your skull due to the longer time for deceleration
is simply a side effect. Brain buckets are awesome for keeping your skull in
one piece. Always have been.

~~~
Swizec
Wouldn’t the fact that your skull decelerates slower against an airbag than
against a steering wheel mean that your brain hits your skull with less force?

~~~
elliottkember
Yes, that's what it does. It's not zero, but it's definitely less. But you
probably only hit an airbag a couple of times max over the course of your
lifetime, whereas on the field you'll hit your head the whole game. And I
don't know how you could put an airbag in a helmet, there's not enough space
to slow your impact

~~~
WalterBright
Make the helmet bigger, and put a liner filled with gel in it.

~~~
tomcam
Not to be overprotective or anything, but after reading this I am just going
to put my kids in giant rolling blocks of gel to keep them safe. Look for my
YC Winter ‘21 startup GelBlok.io. If we need another compiler writer I will DM
you

~~~
WalterBright
Haha, my degree is in mechanical engineering. So I do know a thing or two
about kinematics :-)

The nice thing about gel is it squishes out of the way, and that squishing
turns the spike into a more gradual push. It wouldn't take much gel to
substantially reduce the spices.

Of course, this would have to be tested. It shouldn't be too hard to test
various designs.

------
082349872349872
The Cresta Run has had to find its own underwriter because many refuse to
cover sledding. I can't find it now, but at one point I was looking for
"extreme sports" cover, and was surprised to see that even in that space, the
Cresta was listed as an exception to coverage.

[https://www.cresta-run.com/ride-the-cresta/insurance/](https://www.cresta-
run.com/ride-the-cresta/insurance/)

~~~
205guy
I hadn't heard of this institution before, so I was checking out their
website. This whole brain injury risk must be why they limit access to women:

[https://www.cresta-run.com/ride-the-cresta/ride-the-
cresta/](https://www.cresta-run.com/ride-the-cresta/ride-the-cresta/)

"Ladies will be able to use the Run strictly by invitation, at the discretion
of the Committee and under the supervision of the Secretary (or his nominee)
on the following occasions:" followed by a few days not even each month.

What a contrast to that Top Gear video linked by someone else
([https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BzxS-3vO6Gw](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BzxS-3vO6Gw))
where the male driver races the British Olympic skeleton gold medalist
(skeleton vs car on nearby roads of same distance). Of course the car wins,
but least they let her on the track.

/sarcasm

~~~
082349872349872
That the St. Moritz Toboggan Club committee sticks by nineteenth century
customs in the twenty-first might be circumstantial evidence for the brain-
addling effect of too much high-velocity ice time?

------
Markoff
that's lot of assumptions why they are taking their lives, but I'm missing
comparison with suicide rate in other sports

3 athletes in 7 years in one sport doesn't seem out of ordinary in extremely
stressful environment where each millisecond counts

~~~
topkai22
It's high compared to the general population.
[https://www.ibsf.org/en/athletes?nationality=CAN&gender=M&la...](https://www.ibsf.org/en/athletes?nationality=CAN&gender=M&last_season=0&sport_bob=1)
lists all make national team members going back to at least 2010. There are
less than 500 national team members listed between the US and Canada. 3 deaths
/ (500 people *7 years) is 85 deaths per 100000 person years. The normal us
rate is closer to 27.

That being said, I agree it would be interesting to know if other speed sports
have similarly elevated risks or if it is unique to bobsleigh

~~~
Markoff
I would be curious about explanation for cricket then.

[https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2001/apr/22/sport.ameliahill](https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2001/apr/22/sport.ameliahill)

The suicide rate among British men is 1.07 per cent, but according to Frith's
research, the rate among cricketers here is 1.77 per cent - making them 75 per
cent more likely to take their own life.

But the game's toll overseas is even higher. In South Africa 4.12 per cent of
players take their own lives. In New Zealand the rate is 3.92 per cent and in
Australia 2.75 per cent.

------
inamberclad
Those g numbers are insane. I would appreciate an FFT instead of a time-series
graph but this is far beyond even a rocket launch.

~~~
t0mas88
There is a huge difference between a prolonged G-force (like a rocket launch
or a fighter jet turning) and an instant reading (helmet hitting ice). A
prolonged G-force in human performance studies in aviation is defined as 1
second or longer. A reading of more than +10g in the Z-axis will black out
almost all humans. While instant readings as high as 200g have been measured
in a survivable car crash.

Falling from 1m and stopping in 1cm gets you an instant reading of 100g. And
yet that doesn't sound very deadly at all.

~~~
jmiserez
_> Falling from 1m and stopping in 1cm gets you an instant reading of 100g.
And yet that doesn't sound very deadly at all._

It does though, if you fall directly on your head from that height. Even with
a helmet that seems dangerous.

------
noisy_boy
I think the more these things are talked about the better. The research may
not be definitive but people should be more aware of the high-g's, impact of
brain injuries on their lives based on the experience shared by top-athletes,
cases of suicides etc. It may be an individual's personal decision if they
want to get involved in this sport but at least they will be relatively more
aware of the potential risks with what they are getting into.

Also, in this day and age of metrics-madness, it is incredible that important
measurements such as g-forces (even if just on the helmet) are not routinely
recorded and/or shared as part of scores/stats.

------
tibbydudeza
So what about Formula 1 drivers ???.

Typically they experience about 5g when braking and 6g whilst cornering on a
circuit completing a distance of about 305km.

~~~
nabla9
Steady acceleration when braking is not significant cause.

High g-vibration and concussions from crashes are.

------
ajnin
That reminds me of a bad headache I got once after riding on a particularly
shaky rollercoaster. It lasted the afternoon and made me feel quite sick. I
think some of these rides are not safe either.

------
MarxOk
How does one possibly elicit causation versus correlation for something like
this? There are so many possible variables that could explain the connection
(risk-taking behaviour for example).

------
S_A_P
Question- if this sport has been going on since 1924 why are the athletes only
just now starting to take their lives?

~~~
frank2
They probably have been taking their lives all along.

The knowledge that repeated head traumas can cause suicidality has only been
widespread for 10 to 15 years. Before then for example it was commonly
believed even by experts that the only head traumas that can cause permanent
problems are those where the victim loses consciousness right after the hit.

------
flcl42
It'd be cool to limit posting by only public resources.

~~~
DavidVoid
If it complains that you've run out of free articles then just clear the site
cookies and data and reload the page (click the padlock next to the url if
you're using Firefox).

~~~
flcl42
Thanks, it works! The site collects some kind of a fingerprint, looks like.
Private mode chrome opened site asks for account, the same site in firefox,
indeed, thinks I'm a new user. Smells like some dirty way of data collection.

------
saeranv
Ugh, I cannot get beyond the NYTimes paywall, ever. Something about their
paywall standards blocks me out pretty much every time.

~~~
DavidVoid
If you're using firefox the click on the padlock next to the URL and clear the
site's cookies and data, then reload the page.

------
asciident
From my naive understanding based on reading the article, I don't see how
sledding is any more of a sport than a video game combined with fear
tolerence.

~~~
irjustin
how... how did you come to that conclusion?

~~~
mirimir
Not OP, but I'm guessing that they think athletes just contribute mass.

~~~
runawaybottle
Generally they also believe playing/watching sports is mostly pointless and
appeal to lesser intelligences.

Apparently they’ve never done a thorough exploration of existentialism or
nihilism given how _smart_ they are.

------
stareatgoats
Our culture is rife with such, arenas where (mostly young) people put their
life and health at risk for the merriment of the couch potatoes that make up
the bulk of the public.

We can't outlaw it as long as there are people who rely on it for their
livelihood, and large swathes of the populace are insensitive to the
sufferings of strangers to the point of enjoying it, immensely.

~~~
UweSchmidt
I don't think people would willingly sacrifice other people's life and health;
it's just generally difficult to

\- understand long term consequences

\- understand risk

\- relate to other people's struggles

\- work against financial interests (as you mentioned)

Given enough information we _can_ outlaw activities, and in the case of
sledding, simply taking it out of the Olympic Games would probably put an end
to the sport.

Not sure what to do about my beloved NFL though.

------
doublesCs
Isn't this a really small problem? If you were to sort by importance all the
problems in the world, how close to the bottom would sledding athletes
injurying themselves be?

I feel sorry for those who already incurred lasting damage, but for the
rest... it only depends on them to stop.

~~~
CathedralBorrow
Why are you wasting all these words on something that is not at the top of
your sorted list? What is the most important problem in the world?

~~~
doublesCs
> Why are you wasting all these words on something that is not at the top of
> your sorted list?

I wrote that out of curiosity about why such an article would end up on the
front page of HN. Yes, I understand that HN isn't just business and tech, it's
"interesting things" \- but why is this article interesting? Since I don't
find it interesting, maybe some people found this an important issue, I
thought?

~~~
bitcurious
>I wrote that out of curiosity about why such an article would end up on the
front page of HN.

(a) It's a well written and interesting article on a sports issue that most
don't know about.

(b) Its TBI implications are generalizable to a lot of popular activities.

