
Germany’s great tuition fees U-turn - superfx
http://www.timeshighereducation.co.uk/features/feature-germanys-great-tuition-fees-u-turn/2011168.fullarticle
======
zwieback
Another point: US universities look very different from German ones. I live in
Corvallis (OSU) now but grew up and went to school in Stuttgart Germany.
Compared to the German universities our US schools are country clubs: dorms,
restaurants, coffee shops, fitness clubs, green spaces everywhere. Don't even
get me started on the sports, it's an outrage how US schools have become
sports franchises.

I'm guessing most US students would be shocked by the reality of German public
universities which basically consist of giant rooms with blackboards and
there's not much general ed to speak of. At the graduate level it gets more
interesting but that's in years 5-8. My first 4 years studying ME in Stuttgart
were almost 100% lectures with a final exam at the end of the semester.
Virtually no tutoring and very little corrected homework.

You don't get what you don't pay for. On the other hand, you don't really get
what you pay for in the US either since the universities have become so good
at sucking up more and more student loan money without really improving on
their core mission of providing higher education.

~~~
rbehrends
To go into more detail, here's the typical lecture format at a German
university (note that this is "typical", not universal, and professors have a
lot of leeway in how they can structure their courses).

There'll be a lecture twice a week (four "semester hours", 2 times 2 * 45
minutes) and a two semester hour exercise session. The lecture will be held by
a professor [1]; the exercise session for undergraduate courses will generally
be conducted by a TA in smaller groups.

More often than not there won't be a textbook, except for heavily standardized
courses (or where the professor chooses to pick one). You'll work off the
professor's lecture notes and any notes that you took yourself (sometimes the
lecture notes are basically a textbook by themselves, but that's obviously a
lot of work for a professor). The lecture notes may recommend additional
literature, which is generally available through the library's course reserves
(and out of which students will photocopy anything they consider relevant;
private copies short of wholesale copies of books are generally legal in
Germany) or online (in the case of individual papers).

You'll get homework once a week, distributed as printouts during the lecture
(and/or available on the course website). Students are encouraged to work on
homework in groups and to even turn in their results as a group.

Homework will be graded, but it doesn't count towards your final grade;
instead, you will be required to get 50% of the total points to be admitted to
the final exam (this is more an incentive than an actual threshold). You can
generally even copy the results from somewhere else (you're doing homework as
preparation for the exam, so you're only hurting yourself if you do it).

Homework will be returned and reviewed during the exercise session, usually
with either the TA or one of the students presenting the solution to each
question on the blackboard and discussing it.

Your entire grade will be derived from the final exam (some courses these days
have two exams, one midterm and one final exam so that your entire grade
doesn't ride on one day's performance). Some courses may also have an oral
rather than a written exam.

There generally won't be grading on a curve (though the professor can adjust
the grades if the exam turned out to be harder than intended). If you fail to
meet the standards that the university expects of its students, you fail.
German professors won't shy away from letting most of the students in a course
fail (though they will likely be sad when that happens). That's the price of a
mostly open admission system combined with the university's desire to maintain
its academic reputation.

In addition to lectures, there will be (depending on the subject), seminars,
lab courses, etc. You will also have to write a thesis (including for a
Bachelor's degree).

In general, there's very little handholding (that's not specific to Germany,
though). You're expected to be able to both study independently and work
productively in a group (skills that you should have learned in school)
without needing support.

[1] Using the term "professor" broadly to include "privatdozenten" etc.

~~~
justinlloyd
I've attended four different higher education colleges and three universities
in the UK, and two universities in the US. Mostly STEM, some business and law
courses.

My UK experience is pretty much in line with the above summary from my college
life between 1986 and 1995. Lots of blackboard lectures, practical coursework
where necessary, one, occasionally two exams per subject. Coursework grades
determined whether you would be permitted to sit your exams. Broad spectrum of
skill and knowledge levels at the start of the course, very even distribution
towards the end. You either figured it out, or you failed.

My US experience was more like school, lots of handholding, lots of silly
child-like exercises, broad spectrum of skill levels and knowledge at the
beginning and it remained so right through to the end. Lots more negotation
between students and professor about assignments and when they are due, and
skirting the rules, especially on the business courses for an MBA I was
enrolled in. The pace on the MBA could be described as "plodding" at best.

This is also my ancedotal experience and also probably not universal.

~~~
sedachv
> The pace on the MBA could be described as "plodding" at best.

Mirrors my MBA experience at a Canadian university.

~~~
justaman
This was also my experience as a recent BBA grad. However I think that
business schools expect a certain level of flexibility to be beneficial to its
students as several (hopefully) will be partaking in entrepreneurial
activities.

------
jiggy2011
Has there been any extensive research done on relationship between university
fees and social mobility?

On one hand it seems obvious that if you reduce costs of attending university
you remove a barrier that would prevent economically disadvantaged people from
attending.

But on the other hand, university students, especially those at the best
universities disproportionately come from better economic backgrounds and this
seems to be true everywhere. In this case it doesn't seem fair to tax people
who are poor to pay for something that is mainly of benefit to the rich.

In the UK we have a student loan system where students do not have to pay back
loans unless they earn over a threshold amount, so in theory there is nothing
to prevent a poor person going to university regardless of how high the fees
are.

~~~
nhaehnle
Social mobility in Germany is very low, doing consistently worse than e.g. the
Scandinavian countries (I remember seeing sources claim that it is even worse
than the US, but there seems to be no agreement on that).

However, as far as education is concerned, it would be wrong to blame
universities. The German school system is very stratified, "locking in" a
child's destiny at a young age. Via parents who understand this and fight
tooth and nail to get their child into the highest tier of the school system,
it leads to high correlation between parents' and children's academic
achievements.

~~~
yodsanklai
Social mobility is very low in France as well and education is pretty much
free.

~~~
daviddumenil
France has relatively high Social Mobility.

[http://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2012/may/22/social-...](http://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2012/may/22/social-
mobility-data-charts)

~~~
FractalNerve
Excuse my stupid question, but what does social mobility mean? [serious]

~~~
junto
Quite simply: The ability to move between social classes.

    
    
      Social mobility is the movement of individuals, families,
      households, or other categories of people within or 
      between social strata in a society. It is a change in 
      social status relative to others' social location within a 
      given society.
    

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_mobility](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_mobility)

------
saool
I wish the debate focused less on cost-benefit analysis and on ways to
engineer a just "chargeback" using loans or taxes and more about the idea that
maybe people should be encouraged to pursue education just for the sake of it,
to become free men and free thinkers, regardless of whether they'd be
economically better off by taking electricity at trade school just to quickly
join the assembly line at Volkswagen so that they can make money to buy a
bigger plasma TV. /rant

~~~
acadien
I agree with everything said above, but what about the fact that society will
always need plumbers, garbage collectors, fast food employees etc.? I'm not
even sure that this is a counter point to what is mentioned above, just more
thinking out loud. Is it possible to have a high functioning/efficient society
in which there are no economic pressures to motivate people?

~~~
JetSpiegel
Why can't a plumber be also a free thinker?

~~~
iammyIP
I am sure he can be, but why must some free thinkers be plumbers?

~~~
JetSpiegel
That's...a great rebuttal.

------
cmdkeen
There's a big difference between no tuition fees and "free" education. All
this means is that the cost of education is passed on to all tax payers.

Now this can be justified, there is utility in having an educated workforce
and society. However when everyone is paying there is a need to have a
decision about how many people need that education to provide the benefits
everyone gets. The UK is seeing these problems with 40% of school leavers
going to university. There aren't enough jobs for graduates and we are way
past the point of marginal returns in terms of social or cultural advancement.

Personally I much prefer the idea of fees and student loans. Not US style
versions of either. In the UK they are effectively a graduate tax that you may
pay off in time, they don't harm your credit rating and repayments are a
percentage of your income about a relatively high amount (close to the average
salary).

~~~
edent
They don't harm your credit rating, but...

* You have to declare them when trying to get a mortgage (or any other loan) and so may reduce the amount you are leant.

* If you go bankrupt - the loan does _not_ go away.

* Want to launch a funky startup? Now the graduates you want to work for you start demanding more money because a higher percentage now goes back to the Student Loan Company.

I fought hard against the introduction of fees when they were introduced in
the UK. In 1998 they were set at £1k a year - we said it was a slippery slope
and were dismissed as paranoid. Fees in the UK are now up to £9k per year.

~~~
cmdkeen
All of those things act like any other tax. That's all it is, a tax you may
one day stop paying. A mortgage is dependent on your ability to repay, i.e.
your net income, if the income tax rate went up then mortgage companies would
also reduce the amount they would lend you.

The alternatives are either a graduate tax - which has all of the issues you
mention, except you never stop paying it, so potentially pay far more than the
cost of your education - or general taxation in which case the people who
didn't go to university (generally less well off) are paying for your degree.

~~~
toyg
_> general taxation in which case the people who didn't go to university
(generally less well off) are paying for your degree._

That's a nice story, but it doesn't tally with the other story about UK tax
revenues being overwhelmingly provided by well-off people. So which is which?

General taxation is not a bogeyman, if done fairly. If a poor person had to
pay 1p per year to send a poor kid to university, with the other £8,999.99
being paid by a well-off person, I don't think the poor would have a problem
with it... would you?

~~~
lucio
Counter example: There are 8000 poor persons paying 1p and 10 well-of paying
100 for his kids to go to university. None of the 8000 poor people has kids in
univ.

~~~
jahewson
Sorry, but no. We know that there is 40% attendance at university, so 3,194 of
the less well-off people would have kids who attend.

~~~
sanderjd
Ignoring the made-up numbers, that means that 60% of people are contributing
to the education of that 40%, unless those 60% of people are exempted from a
certain kind of tax that the 40% have to pay, which is exactly what the thread
starter was calling a "graduate tax".

~~~
toyg
_> that means that 60% of people are contributing to the education of that
40%_

... and? These are the future business and political leaders of their country.
Don't they have an interest in educating them properly, so that they'll be
ruled by competent people?

Besides, some of them will have been "poor people" who managed to squeeze into
that 40%. We are not talking about hypotheticals here: it happened in Britain
for a while, just go check the life stories of droves of modern civil servant
and politicians and you'll find people who made effective usage of their free
education to better themselves and their country. This will inevitably happen
less and less, now that poor families with smart kids are forced to take on
27k of debt - a deferred graduate tax which, being regressive (as all flat
taxes are), is disproportionately affecting people from poorer backgrounds
rather than well-off families (who, in the UK, are used to pay even more for
pre-university education anyway -- for them it's just another drop in the
water).

~~~
sanderjd
I don't necessarily disagree with you, just pointing out that if only 40% of
the tax base uses a service, then 60% of the tax base is helping pay for it
without directly using it. The indirect effects of those contributions are
definitely more interesting!

------
taejo
I'm a student at a German university, and I don't pay tuition fees, but I do
pay about 400€ a year in "semester fees", of which the two largest components
are "student services" and a compulsory season ticket for regional transport;
student union membership and some kind of insurance contribution are also
included.

~~~
garagemc2
Hey quick question - are comp sci courses in Germany taught in English
throughout?

~~~
Ao7bei3s
No.

Many are, especially higher level courses (ie, above the Bachelor level), but
not nearly all of them. Some lecturers try to hold their lectures in English
even though they speak it very poorly.

Pretty much all lecturers will happily take English questions and answer them
in English. And all German comp sci students speak English.

For many courses which are held in German the materials are still in (some
kind of) English. You can usually get by very, very well by skipping the
classes entirely and learning from the provided materials only. In fact,
that's what a large number of German students are doing too.

------
raverbashing
I find the "American model" and the "European model" dichotomy very
interesting.

American model: individually centered, "pay for what you want", development is
driven by small companies and individual decisions (most of the time). "Works
for me"

European model: centered on the community, social support, development by
committee/government/consensus. Slow but directed improvements

Germany _could not_ have produced Facebook. But they have a great train
network. France puts satellites on orbit and does the TGV.

In the US you have millionaires came out of "nothing" (of course, from nice
universities, nice contacts, etc), people jumping at opportunities, while in
Europe this would take 2 meetings, 3 viability studies and 4 months.

So, while I'm more towards in favour of the European model someone has to ask
themselves what are they missing. Yes, they have a very nice and educated
workforce that will be ready to work and be very productive at a big company
where they will work hard, sure, but will come out with the least amount of
new ideas (that's not their job), and will do the things most likely to be
accepted by the majority.

~~~
flexie
If Germany couldn't have produced Facebook it's only because of the language.
User content on facebook is mainly a written language thing, and it would have
been hard spreading a website with mostly German content to English since so
few Americans and brits speak German. On the other hand, most young Europeans
speak English so Facebook had little trouble spreading from American
universities to Europeans.

Skype started in Europe (Swedish/Danish co-founders, Estonian devs, offices in
London, company in Luxembourg). No "committe/government/consensus" there.

Also, Apple and Google are examples of American companies that started with
public funding.

Finally, many European countries rank higher than the US when it comes to
social mobility. Don't most European know several millionaires who "came out
of nothing" (or at least from a quiet European middle class background)? I
think so.

~~~
ctdonath
Apple didn't start with public funding. It was a hobby for a couple guys who
sold their homemade computers at a club.

Don't confuse the fact that, during startup, a business _used_ available
public funding as just another available opportunity to leverage, vs a
business that never would have started/survived _without_ public funding.

~~~
flexie
Yes they did receive government funding from early on.

Apple received early stage funding from the SBIC programme:
[http://www.sbia.org/?page=sbic_program_history](http://www.sbia.org/?page=sbic_program_history)

And, more importantly, many of the technologies used by Apple right from the
first computers to the iphones were developed with government funding and used
free of charge: [http://money.cnn.com/video/technology/2013/10/24/t-iphone-
go...](http://money.cnn.com/video/technology/2013/10/24/t-iphone-government-
funding-technology-research-apple-google.cnnmoney/)

And I am not even talking about the later government subsidies from American
states and from Ireland in the form of massive tax breaks. Nokia didn't get
away with paying a 2 percent tax on its European profits (but probably
received other government funding themselves along the way).

Similarly, the Google founders' work on the pagerank algorithms on Stanford
was funded by a government entity, the National Science Foundation, and they
were allowed to use it commercially free of charge. And Google too, has
received massive tax breaks.

~~~
ctdonath
Again: don't confuse use of available options including gov't funding, with
likely failure if gov't funding wasn't available.

The Steves were highly motivated; lack of government funding likely would not
have stopped Apple from existing much as we know it now.

Just because a party was involved doesn't make 'em indispensable.

------
Igglyboo
It's really crazy how the students reacted to this when the fees were
introduced. They were very low compared to the US, less than 1000 euros for an
entire year yet the students responded with mass protests and vandalism. On
university also had it's master key(ring?) stolen and had to spend a lot of
money to redo every lock.

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bielefeld_University#Protests_a...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bielefeld_University#Protests_against_tuition_fees)

~~~
levosmetalo
If you don't fight hard going from 0€ to 1000€, then you don't have any chance
resisting a raise from 1000€ to 50000€ in the next decade. Just look at what
happened to, once affordable, education in USA and do the opposite.

In Germany we like to get something in return for the tax we are paying to the
state.

~~~
switch007
It happened in the UK. Fees started at £1,000 in 1998, rising to £3,000 in
2006 and then 2010 (?) fees rose to £9,000.

------
dang
From [http://www.timeshighereducation.co.uk/features/feature-
germa...](http://www.timeshighereducation.co.uk/features/feature-germanys-
great-tuition-fees-u-turn/2011168.fullarticle) it's clear that tuition fees
had only been around for a few years in Germany, were relatively low, and most
states had already dropped them.

Edit: I think we'll change the url to this article, because it's more
substantive and not behind a paywall like
[http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/world/europe/article42135...](http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/world/europe/article4213550.ece)
is.

------
rikacomet
another version: [http://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/mar/15/german-
universi...](http://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/mar/15/german-university-
tuition-fees-abolished)

I basically think this is a very big news. It effects a lot of people. Though
I think this only applies (and should) to domestic students.

In our country (India) .. the Right to Education Act was a hot topic this
year.. it still has to go a long way.. but it can learn from Germany's example
of doing away with the fees altogether in Public Universities. Young people
are the driving force behind the economy. But many fail to live up to their
potential due to economic constraints.

1\. Most Public Universities already run mostly upon Tax-Payers Money. So
Burden is not that sudden, as one would think.

2\. Expansions would be more scrutinized. We have to look at this in terms of
Fixed and Variable/Recurring Cost.

3\. Caution would be required on part of distributing the money corpus. Some
colleges are in comfortable zone of the balance sheet, while some aren't.
Those who are not, need to be looked after.

4\. Students should still be charged for some "Extras" like Foreign Trips
(optional in many colleges).

I would love to know the finer details of how German Govt is handling the
economics around this decision. This could be a Epic Success or Epic Fail. The
dice has been cast.

~~~
pmr_
No dice has been cast. Things simply revert back to how they always have been.
One important thing to know is that German universities are not handled by the
federal government but on a state level (as all things educational) but there
is a broader framework to keeps things aligned.

Only some states decided to demand tuition for their universities in 2006
(some later) and most quickly stopped again after a few years.

------
PythonicAlpha
It should be noted here, that in the past (10-20 years ago), Germany did not
have any tuition fees ... and fared very well with this model for many
decades.

Only lately, because the German govnmt wanted to save the costs for the
universities, they invented the fees with the argument, that with more
funding, the quality of education could be better. But many universities just
used the money to cover costs, that where not covered any more from the money
they got from the country.

So, essentially it was a cost reduction program to reduce costs for the state
finance ... thus freeing money that could go to banks and big companies.

The system was not well received by the students and also some German
countries dropped the program, thus putting some pressure on the others, since
the students prefered the universities without fees. I guess, that was the
reason now, that the last country dropped the fees.

In my opinion, countries like GB make a big error by forcing enormous fees
unto students. In the result, the students which do not come from millionaires
houses are either at the mercy of the banks for decades or many people that
well could study, just do not. Thus the nation looses many talents (in both
outcomes).

~~~
shamney
student loans in the UK are provided by the government at relatively low
interest rates. There is a minimum earning threshold before repayment can
begin and a hard limit on the total proportion of income that can be taken for
repayment. So no one is "at the mercy of the banks" and only a small number of
people have been discouraged from attending university.

~~~
PythonicAlpha
> and only a small number of people have been discouraged from attending
> university.

How do you know that. Have you asked the people?

I doubt what you say (not about the loans, I guess you know better than I, but
in the US people are really at the mercy of the banks).

Even, when only few are discouraged, you have a loss.

The UK gvnmt should know: You can't have both: Save money and have good
education for all without losses. When many use the loans, the savings for the
UK are limited, since not all will be able to repay the money in full. Also
the UK looses the money from the people that did not attend university. And it
looses innovation -- all things that can not be calculated, but might finally
well excell the pennies, the UK saves now. It even might loose the future (UK
already has nearly only banking left as most important industry, so innovation
would be really needed to revive the former proud "empire").

------
awendt
I'm surprised no one brought up the bigger picture of which types of education
Germans pay for and which they don't.

While going to university has been free for a long time in Germany (and will
be again according to this article), German parents pay for kindergarten and
day care.

In most countries, it's the other way around and I'd gladly pay for my kids to
go to university than pay for the much more basic education before primary
school. I paid up to 500 Euros a months for my son's kindergarten. (This is is
maximum amount, but that's another story...)

This is why I don't get that students were so eager to demonstrate against the
introduction of tuition, claiming education is then reserved for rich people.
The same argument could be brought up against payments for day care, but no
one will acknowledge that. (I guess this is because students are willing to
plan for family after the degree.)

Reversing this situation would result in better integration of kids from
families with immigrant background which is a far better goal than to make
higher education more accessible, regardless of money.

~~~
sveme
You are obviously right - kindergarten should be free for all. But you
establish a false dichotomy: why exchange free university with free
kindergarten? Why not have both? You could certainly argue with limited budget
availability, but in the end it's a societal/political decision.

~~~
awendt
I'm not saying I don't want both :)

All I'm saying: If budget is the issue, I'm all for kindergarten. If it's not
an issue, make everything free.

------
xtc
All German universities free of charge... [paywall]

------
malvim
The federal and state universities here in Brazil have always been free. In
fact, most people here use the terms "public" as a synonym for "free of
charge", when talking about education. I think this is great, but it is not
"education for everyone" as sometimes it's touted to be.

The problem we have is not about paying for college education, but in being
able to pass the entry exams. Even though the public higher-education
institutions are free of any tuition fees, an enormous part of their students
is still composed of upper-middle-class kids, whose parents could afford the
high-priced private middle and high schools.

It's great we have free public schools, but the inclusion they should provide
is still a long ways of becoming true.

------
s_dev
Whilst tuition fees in Ireland have not really risen - registration fees have
gone from €200 to €3,000 over the 08-14'recession. In the UK fees have also
risen. Finland and Denmark are free. I'm not that familiar with Southern or
Eastern Europe.

I think free third level institutions are important but I'm not opposed to the
"free now tax later after certain pay threshold" education systems like
Australia.

Also [image] this:
[https://i.imgur.com/SXNtYyi.jpg](https://i.imgur.com/SXNtYyi.jpg) taken from
corrosponding reddit thread is also relevant. It illustrates tuition fees in
Europe.

~~~
_of
Sweden is also free. Plus you get 1100 SEK/month in assistance from the
government.

~~~
Tehnix
You get a nice 5900 DKK/Month (7217 SEK or 1000$) here in Denmark :)

------
brkn
I started paying around 250 Euro when starting my study at the university
(2009). This term I had to pay aroung 290 Euro.

The fee for the TU Berlin is composed of:

Verwaltungsgebühr (gem. § 2 Abs. 7 BerlHG) (administrative fee)

50,00 €

Beitrag zur Studierendenschaft (Contribution to the student body)

8,70 €

Beitrag zum Studentenwerk (Contribution to the Student Services)

48,77 €

Beitrag zum Semesterticket (Contribution to the semester ticket)

179,40 €

Beitrag zum Sozialfonds zum Semesterticket (Contribution to the Social Fund
for Semesterticket)

3,50 €

= 290,37 €

Of course it is still much cheaper than to study in other countries. But the
fees are growing and you have to pay for the semester ticket, which is
essentially a ticket for all public transportation in Berlin, even though you
wouldn't need it.

*Translated with Google Translator

~~~
oscargrouch
Google translator for German looks awesome; its not that good for Portuguese
:/

------
jo_
I've been digging through this thread and can't seem to find any information
on the impact of 'free tuition' on tuition costs. In the US, we saw an
increase in loan availability result in a significant uptick in the price of
attendance to universities. If the government is paying the cost of tuition,
how is the cost of tuition kept in check?

Disclaimer: I love the idea of free public education. I wish it would take
hold in the US. My only concern is how Universities will react to being paid
almost arbitrary amounts of money per-student.

~~~
usrusr
> My only concern is how Universities will react to being paid almost
> arbitrary amounts of money per-student.

This is absolutely not how it works over here. The state is not saying "go
learn wherever you want, if they send you a bill, we will take care of it", it
is funding the universities who have to accept students who bring the
educational prerequisites. Funding is certainly coupled to number of students
in some way, but the rate is set by the state and universities have to compete
for students within their budget.

(more like "hey, university, you seem to be quite popular with the students,
you can employ up to X professors, we will pay them for you at our standard
rate. Just don't forget to keep serving those students")

~~~
jo_
Thank you for the reply. I understand much better now. An intuitive
understanding of the price/demand/negotiation dynamics still eludes me, but
this has helped a lot.

------
subhro
I wish this happened in US. The fee part, not the paid to read part :)

~~~
zura
Is price significant for public/state universities as well in US?

~~~
nilkn
It depends heavily on where you go, but large and popular public schools can
still be very expensive in the US. Here's an example of the cost breakdown at
one such school:

[http://admissions.missouri.edu/costs-and-
aid/costs/index.php](http://admissions.missouri.edu/costs-and-
aid/costs/index.php)

Even more popular public schools like UCLA tend to be about $10k/year more:

[http://www.admissions.ucla.edu/prospect/budget.htm](http://www.admissions.ucla.edu/prospect/budget.htm)

Just to give you an idea of the cost of, say, Harvard...

[https://college.harvard.edu/financial-aid/how-aid-
works/cost...](https://college.harvard.edu/financial-aid/how-aid-works/cost-
attendance)

Do note that extremely wealthy private institutions like Harvard tend to be
correspondingly generous with financial aid, so the number there is likely not
representative of what you'd actually pay unless you came from a very rich
family (as a fair number of Harvard students do).

~~~
smeyer
I went to Harvard, but I think it's important to note that the vast majority
of private schools don't have the wealth (and corresponding aid) of Harvard
and its ilk.

------
Heliosmaster
* University education? free

* Article to read about it? Pay for it.

This beautifully sums up the differences of education and news.

~~~
tptacek
I have no idea what this comparison is supposed to mean. Where does journalism
come from? The Department of Journalism?

~~~
tomp
In London, it largely comes from university students interning for free, or
desperate young graduates working free internships "to gain experience".

~~~
infinity0
Yeah, and the editors treat them like shit and put their own propaganda slants
on their articles.

------
ajuc
Poland has both paid and free universities, state-run universities are free
(but just for the daily courses, there are also evening courses and weekend
courses that are paid).

Free courses are paid by taxes, and universities have a limit on how much
students they can admit on paid courses depending on how much they admit on
free courses.

There are also private universities with just paid courses, but they are much
worse quality (they admit almost anoyone for money, so better students go to
the state universities to study for free, and worse students only get admited
to the paid ones).

The end result is - almost everybody go to the university and do M.A. in
something. The education is usually OK, but not great (especially on the worse
universities). Everybody have M.A. so it isn't advantage in the job market,
just a requirement (there were postman job offerings requiring M.A. for
example :) ).

The problem is - Polish universities don't do much science, they are mostly
for education, people call them M.A. factories.

------
robomartin
Not sure free education provides absolutely net positive results. More data
might be required.

If you look at a country like Argentina, where university level education has
been free probably since the country was founded you see issues. Running 10x
more people through universities does not create 10x more prosperity. Lots of
Medical Doctors in Argentina almost starve. Engineers drive taxis or own pizza
joints. The only way some of these people can reliably make a solid change to
their lives is to leave the country and seek work elsewhere. In that case the
net effect within the nation is still negative.

Again, not sure how to think about something like this other than to operate
under my admittedly preconceived notion that most people don't value or work
hard at anything that is free. I could be wrong.

~~~
thejdude
Free shouldn't mean that everybody attends college. Degree inflation sucks.

I observe the same problem in Germany - more and more people attend
school/university for more and more years, but don't turn out any brighter
overall.

------
shmerl
Impressive. I wish US would do the same.

~~~
pjmlp
From an European point of view, the US university system is crazy.

In many European countries the value of state universities over private ones
is very high regarded, that except for a few well renowned exceptions, private
universities are seen as places where you buy a title, not earn one.

As they mostly get the students that weren't able to go through the national
exams for the state universities.

~~~
aianus
> From an European point of view, the US university system is crazy.

From the US point of view the European system is crazy. Call me a selfish
prick but I don't want to pay 50% taxes for the rest of my life subsidizing
arts majors' parties because I chose to study something useful.

~~~
inclemnet
You don't have to be a selfish prick, merely deluded if you thing much of your
taxes would end up in parties for people doing art degrees.

~~~
aianus
They're the only ones that need handouts. The debt is not bad at all if you
graduate from a decent school with a STEM degree.

~~~
PeterisP
As an example, US medicine staffing and pricing problems can directly
attributed to the medicine school debt insanity.

------
tyoma
I see lots of envy from US and UK based people, but not any thought given to
the great opportunity: Germany accepts international students.

Why not go to a German university and get a quality education paid for by the
German taxpayer? As a bonus, you'll get to learn German for free.

~~~
dmix
Is it even covered for international students?

In Canada international students pay much higher rates for tuition. About $10k
for a program that might cost Canadians $3k. It's a huge racket. I'd be
surprised if Germans decided to do the same, as well as taxpayers being will
to pay for foreigners education.

~~~
tyoma
Last time I was in Germany I talked to a Thai gentleman who was an
international student there. He said all of his tuition was covered, and that
it was standard policy. Some Googling seems to confirm thats the case, but
someone from Germany should really clarify.

~~~
whyever
Usually there are no tuition fees for anyone, including international
students. (You have to pay administration fees which are a few 100 euros a
semester.)

------
GolfyMcG
Why has no one brought up how the top German university is "ranked" 55th on
this list:

[http://www.timeshighereducation.co.uk/world-university-
ranki...](http://www.timeshighereducation.co.uk/world-university-
rankings/2013-14/world-ranking)

I'm not saying this list is definitive or that the US tuition prices are
reasonable, but it stands to reason that the best of the best of anything is
going to be exponentially more expensive than it's next closest competitors.

~~~
jbangert
Without going into the metrics that these rankings use and their flaws, the
German university system unfortunately focuses less on "elite" universitities,
instead trying to create a good average experience, so most of the
universities are actually fairly on-par with each other in terms of funding,
and therefore also research output, teaching, etc. That being said, my
experience with high-prestige american universities has been that the expense
has very little to do, and feeds very little into, the quality of the
education. US universities are expensive because they have massive
bureaucratic overhead and are funded through a peculiar model (Government
gives money to people, which give money to universities).

Also, Germany used to have no tuition until the mid-2000s or so, and only some
places introduced it, and it was really, really low.

~~~
tegeek
I think you are right. Sweden is more or less has the same model as German
when it comes to higher education. There are no particular "elite"
universities & most of the universities are more or less on the same level
when it comes to funding, research output, teaching etc.

Even as an International student back in 2008, I paid 0$ in tuition fees &
used to pay 30$ as student union fee per study term/semester and have best
study experience I can imagine.

~~~
riffraff
and yet Karolinska University is 36th in the above list (the top university in
the EU-sans-UK) while Stockholm University is 106th.

The higher education list is quite unrelated to normal person perception, imo.

------
pmontra
Jump on the time machine and read about university concerns when the city of
Hamburg joined this trend in 2011
[http://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/mar/15/german-
universi...](http://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/mar/15/german-university-
tuition-fees-abolished) Is there any German here that can tell us how it is
turning out to be? Thanks.

~~~
thejdude
I think all German states have abolished tuition fees after lots of public
outcry about them
([http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Studiengeb%C3%BChr#Deutschland](http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Studiengeb%C3%BChr#Deutschland)).
It says that Niedersachsen decided to abolish fees for the 2014-2015 semester
as the last state in Germany to do so.

------
Havoc
Hardly a u-turn. They went from no fees, to negligible fees (uproar) to no
fees.

Also note that "fees" in the German context is a little bit different than
other countries. e.g. Some of the compulsory costs are the equivalent to a
transport season pass. Whilst I've got mixed feelings about that it sure seems
more tangible that X amount of money disappearing into the general varsity
fund.

------
omot
"you need to subscribe." I can't read the article.

------
CurtMonash
A century ago the German system basically had no grading until you had a set
of oral examinations for your diploma at the end. Or so I was told by my
German family.

When did that get changed?

------
davesque
Wow...I guess I'm happy for them. But here in the US that just makes me feel
depressed.

------
conkrete
Would be nice if they could scrap the fees so I could read the entire
article...

------
thedaveoflife
One "problem" we have occasionally in Berlin: People enrolling as students
without actually attending classes to get all the added benefits of being a
student in Germany. Almost everything over here carries a student discount.

~~~
DasIch
The student discounts you get isn't really worth it. The semester ticket for
public transport though costs about 1€ a day. That is incredibly cheap
compared to the regular tickets.

Other universities have the same problem though. In NRW you can practically
travel through the entire state with a semester ticket at roughly the same
price.

~~~
thedaveoflife
The Studenten-BahnCard saves you a ton of money on train travel too

------
SEJeff
Do all professors become employed by the government then?

~~~
krylon
In Germany (where I live, I am not sure how it works in other countries), that
is how it works.

There are some private universities, but not many (and they tend to focus on
"cheap" subjects in the sense of "cheap to provide training" \- training a
medical doctor or a chemist apparently is far more expensive than training an
MBA) - Professors teaching at private universities, are, of course, employed
by those universities.

If you want to work in academia, you will have to jump through lots of hoops,
usually going from one temporary contract to another until you get tenure. But
all along the way, you are technically employed by the government (more
strictly, Professors are employed by the state government, not by the federal
government, because education is the domain of the federal states.

(Even more strictly speaking there are a few universities that are run by the
military for educating their officers - those belong to the federal department
of "defense", and the professors teaching there are employees of the federal
government.)

~~~
SEJeff
Wow totally jealous. I'm of German descent (last name: Schroeder, 3rd
generation in the US), but we have it very bad in comparison.

We have these parasitic institutions called "for profit" colleges that are
typical capitalist greed. Their goal is to extract as much money out of
students who can't do math so well and end up with unbelievably large loans.
Most state ran colleges are respectable, but the most all of the best colleges
in America are private or private "Ivy League" colleges. Becoming a professor
requires a PHD and many years to attain tenure. I simply don't think the pay
is competitive for public colleges vs private "for profit" colleges that are
money making machines. Most of the best professors work for places you've
likely heard of like Harvard, Yale, Princeton, etc. None of those are state
colleges. That being said, some state colleges are wonderful (USC is a great
example). It is just different, and unfortunately a lot less of a possibility
for much of America's working class.

US primary and secondary schools are mandatory and free, but
college/university (no differentiation in the US) are becoming prohibitively
expensive for all of the lower class and much of the middle class. It is bad.

The US has a few military colleges such as westpoint and the US Army War
College, but those are only open to soldiers and officers, so are a different
thing altogether.

Note that I work in technology and didn't go to college. Not because I
couldn't afford it, but because after 4 years of military service, I was able
to trivially get a job in technology. I get paid to write code.

------
alexweber
Could someone please post the full text of the article…

------
hippich
Lately I started thinking that students should be paid, not other way around.
I.e. attending university should be considered a job, with pay based on
performance (grades)

~~~
0xFFC
why people down voted such good idea ?

------
pranayairan
nice, it will promote more college education for people who drop of due to
tuition fees.

------
etattva
All american kids complaining about Tuition, move to Germany now

------
sarciszewski
But the newspapers haven't scrapped the paywall. (And setting my user agent to
"Mozilla/5.0 (compatible; Googlebot/2.1;
+[http://www.google.com/bot.html)"](http://www.google.com/bot.html\)") didn't
dispel it :(

