

Sitting straight 'bad for backs' (2008) - linux_devil
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/6187080.stm

======
anentropic
This is such bullshit. The problem with all forms of sitting for long periods
is that (without corrective exercise) your spinal muscles waste away.

This is where the pain comes from - your spine is not supporting itself any
more and the discs become compressed and misaligned and the muscles more
easily strained.

In this context, sitting in a more relaxed position where "less strain is
placed on the spinal disks and associated muscles and tendons" might
temporarily avoid some of the pain from strained muscles but is going to make
the problem worse in the long run.

To get away from this cycle of back pain you need to do one thing: targeted
exercise to build up the atrophied muscles.

Personally I have found that a more 'active' (i.e. straight upright) sitting
position also helps, now that my back is fit enough to cope with this.

'Ergonomic' office chairs like the Herman Miller seem to make the problem
worse for me, I believe because they are all designed with the misguided
notion that they should support your back for you.

It is well known that bones, joints and muscles all need loading and working
in order to stay healthy (for example:
[http://www.webmd.com/osteoporosis/guide/osteoporosis-
exercis...](http://www.webmd.com/osteoporosis/guide/osteoporosis-exercise))

If any of you are suffering from back problems and are lucky enough to live in
Europe near one of these gyms [http://www.kieser-
training.com](http://www.kieser-training.com) I highly recommend them (there
are others with similar programme) ...I'm not associated in any way but they
have made a massive improvement to my life.

The suggestion that 'strain' on 'muscles and tendons' is bad for your back is
a dangerous one IMHO ...yes this is why you have pain right now, but the
answer is to strengthen the back so the muscles can cope, not to use the
muscles even less!

~~~
cylinder
My spine has become crooked since I stopped lifting for a while, it's actually
quite pathetic. The only thing that sorts it out and relieves the pain is core
and lower back exercises. Fortunately these are the most accessible exercises:
you don't need machines or weights. One thing I like to do is go to the gym
and dangle from the tall pull-up bars, completely relax my muscles and let my
spine decompress and hang. Then, I do a rowing/pedaling motion with my legs
while I dangle, as well as do high kicks. I have to keep doing it, though, if
I don't go every alternating day my back will be crooked and painful once
again.

~~~
nascro
I do the same thing (hang from the pull-up bars). It seems to sort things out,
but I get light-headed nearly every time.

------
collyw
The problem is people are in the habit of slouching forward, pulling on the
muscles at the front. In order to "sit straight", they will likely tense the
opposite muscles and pull both front and back muscles at the same time, making
the problem worse.

Far better is to reeducate yourself how to release the forward pulling
muscles. This however is no easy task. Thommas Hanna has a good book about
this with very interesting exercises to practice.

[http://www.amazon.com/Somatics-Reawakening-Control-
Movement-...](http://www.amazon.com/Somatics-Reawakening-Control-Movement-
Flexibility/dp/0738209570)

The Alexander Technique is another discipline that teaches you how to re-
educate your mind / body control.

Watch professional dancers, how they appear to be both straight and relaxed
and fluid with their movements. Not stiff and rigid. Also people who practice
Yoga are both flexible, yet have better than average posture.

~~~
epaladin
I've always wondered how dancers do it, even though I'm athletic and more
flexible than the average person (hypermobile in some joints actually). So
that sounds like potentially useful reading. I've been standing at work for a
few years, full time since I got an Ergotron Workfit a couple of years ago. It
probably would be healthier to go for a balance of sitting and standing, but I
think I do tend to be a little too rigid when sitting up. Additionally, I'm
not much more than five feet tall and it seems like chairs and desks just
aren't designed for people of that sort of stature. Even ones that are
otherwise relatively ergonomic.

I wish it were easier to find a healthy balance without having to treat
oneself as a longitudinal case study.

------
kyllo
Hip angle is not the issue, or at least, it's a secondary concern. The main
concern is spinal flexion. You want to be sitting with a neutral spine,
regardless of hip angle. You'll start to get issues like bulging discs and
strained muscles if your lumbar spine is in flexion for long periods of time.

Problem is, most sedentary people, especially men, do not know and cannot feel
the difference between hip flexion and lumbar spinal flexion. When you ask
them to touch their toes, they keep their hips mostly extended and flex their
spine instead. Very bad.

Strength training (particularly powerlifts like weighted squats and deadlifts
with proper form, as well as assistance movements like back extensions and
good-mornings) can help strengthen the muscles of the lower back, making it
much easier to keep your lumbar spine neutral while sitting.

~~~
timr
_" Problem is, most sedentary people, especially men, do not know and cannot
feel the difference between hip flexion and lumbar spinal flexion. When you
ask them to touch their toes, they keep their hips mostly extended and flex
their spine instead. Very bad."_

Agreed. This is something I didn't know I was doing until I started doing Yoga
regularly -- after a while, you become very aware of the weakness of your back
muscles, the tension of your hamstrings (if you're the typical male), and how
the overall tendency is to tip your pelvis backward while seated, which makes
your spine bulge to the rear. And when you're standing, you tend to tip your
pelvis the _other_ way (due to weak abs), leading to the "beer gut"
phenomenon, and impinging the lower back. It's no wonder that people have back
trouble as they get older!

For men especially, Yoga focuses on stretching the hamstrings,
straightening/strengthening the back, and increasing range of motion in the
hips and legs. I highly recommend it -- if you keep at it, it really helps
reduce pain in the lower back (plus, you get addicted to the stretching).

------
bitwize
The thing you should be doing is not sitting at all, at least not for hours at
a time.

~~~
Sharlin
I'm not sure why you were downvoted - I thought it's pretty well-accepted that
prolonged sitting is bad for you.

~~~
bryanlarsen
It's also fairly well accepted that prolonged standing is bad for you.

~~~
nialo
In case anyone is curious, an explanation of this from Cornell ergonomics
researchers:
[http://ergo.human.cornell.edu/CUESitStand.html](http://ergo.human.cornell.edu/CUESitStand.html)

------
actionscripted
I switched to a yoga ball a few years back and my lower back pain went away
completely. While sitting in general might not be ideal for long periods of
time, at least with a yoga ball my back is forced to support itself, is
constantly moving/adjusting and I get the adult equivalent of a bouncy chair
at my desk.

For me personally it's been a great success, but I have yet to see any
conclusive "yoga balls are better than chairs" articles that didn't read like
new age dribble.

~~~
collyw
That's a problem I find with a lot of these activities. There is some good
stuff, mixed in with a lot of mystical / new age bullshit.

------
mujunto
They've only tried 3 positions (<90 deg, 90 deg and 135 deg), and in any case
they aren't working with an explanatory theory, so how on earth are they
entitled to claim that 135 deg is optimal?

However I believe the optimal position _is_ slightly reclined, for two
reasons: (1) only then is there enough passive friction between the chair's
back and the sitter's back to provide lateral support, (2) our spines evolved
while we were walking and running around in Africa, looking mostly not at the
horizon but at the ground several metres ahead, checking for snakes, pitfalls,
stones, etc). thus our most natural viewing angle is less than 90 deg wrt to
the spine

------
ivank
Advice from someone who has been studying spine biomechanics for a while:
[http://www.humankinetics.com/excerpts/excerpts/strategies-
to...](http://www.humankinetics.com/excerpts/excerpts/strategies-to-make-
seated-work-less-demanding-on-the-back)

------
leokun
I'm always putting my feet up so I'm more lying than sitting. I'm probably
screwed anyway. I'm way overweight so worrying about my seating or standing
position is like worrying about which orientation my deck chairs are facing.
Standing vs sitting is for the ultra-healthy.

~~~
marcosdumay
If you are fat, you have one extra reason to be carefull about your body
positioning, any strain created by bad posture increases with weight.

~~~
leokun
You look at these standing desk types, they're usually skinny and already
healthy. Standing for long hours when you're overweight is not a reasonable,
nor probably healthy suggestion.

------
forgottenpaswrd
Well, you should not seat for long periods of time.

If you do you train your body, the same way that if you look just with one eye
you modify the eye you don't use, you modify your spine if you seat or use
heels for long periods of time.

A good chiropractic professional could read your body in an amazing way.

Once you have modified your body by use, being "comfortable" is not the same
as "healthy". Smoking is comfortable for a smoker, taking drugs is comfortable
for a drug addict and covering one eye is more comfortable than using it once
you have used only the other for a long time.

~~~
a-priori
There is no evidence that chiropractic treatments are any more effective for
treating back pain than other manual treatments (e.g. massage). And it comes
with much higher risks. There is no evidence it does any good for anything
elsewhere on the body.

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chiropractic#Effectiveness](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chiropractic#Effectiveness)

------
lucaspiller
Is there any type of sitting that isn't bad for backs?

~~~
Sharlin
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Riding-
like_sitting](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Riding-like_sitting) might be. I
personally use a saddle chair at work these days, although there are fewer
serious studies done on the subject than I'd like. One of the evident benefits
of sitting higher is that it's less effort to stand up, walk around, and also
work standing up (if you have an easily adjustable desk).

------
quinndupont
I switch back and forth with a chaise lounge in my (luckily, home) office. I'm
getting a sit/stand desk, so I'm hoping that the three positions should enable
lots of healthful motion (lying/reclining, sitting, standing).

------
ebiester
Has anyone ever figured out how to type at a 135 degree angle? It always seems
to put too much pressure on my wrists and shoulders, and I return to slumping.

~~~
vellum
Get one of those adjustable keyboard trays that allow you to control the angle
of the keyboard.

------
delackner
This is exactly how I have been sitting this week, on a sofa actually, since
my chair was getting too uncomfortable, and now my neck feels alarmingly
stiff.

~~~
Sharlin
I'm pretty sure it's the sofa, not the posture.

