
WhatsApp is going to share your phone number with Facebook - kawera
http://bigstory.ap.org/48e45fd4838b4e5d9f19166ef57841d4
======
forgottenpass
Remember when Whatsapp got bought?

    
    
        Respect for your privacy is coded into our DNA, and we built WhatsApp
        around the goal of knowing as little about you as possible [...]
        If partnering with Facebook meant that we had to change our values,
        we wouldn’t have done it. Instead, we are forming a partnership 
        that would allow us to continue operating independently and autonomously.
        Our fundamental values and beliefs will not change. Our principles
        will not change. Everything that has made WhatsApp the leader in
        personal messaging will still be in place. Speculation to the 
        contrary isn’t just baseless and unfounded, it’s irresponsible. [0]
    

Well, good news for them. They never outlined what exactly their principles
were, so they weren't _technically_ lying. We just get to see how thin their
principles (retroactively) turn out to be.

[0] [https://blog.whatsapp.com/529/Setting-the-record-
straight](https://blog.whatsapp.com/529/Setting-the-record-straight)

~~~
thr0waway1239
Does anyone actually believe a word which these companies say? I think if at
all there was a company which deserved some serious scrutiny under anti-trust,
it was Facebook. Much more than Google or MSFT. They have done exactly the
things which is supposed to be prevented by antitrust - I mean the "spirit of
the law" and not the letter of the law. But hey, there are SO many social
networks - look at LinkedIn, look at Google Plus, Twitter. Except that FB
somehow ends up with all the data which everyone wishes wasn't stored in one
place.

I think it is just a matter of time before FB starts influencing elections to
suit THEIR agenda (assuming they have not already started). Remember the
experiment where they tried to deliberately influence people's emotions? [1]
FB is now effectively a super creepy uber-government.

[1]
[https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2014/jun/29/facebook-...](https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2014/jun/29/facebook-
users-emotions-news-feeds)

Question to anyone who works at Facebook: how come you promptly participate in
the latest HN announcement of the newest JavaScript open source framework from
FB and never bother to show up on these threads. Is ethics just completely off
the table when you step foot inside the company doors? I remember someone
talking about Zynga the company having "sold their soul". Not that Zynga
doesn't rank very high on that chart, but boy, does FB absolutely top that
list by a wide margin.

~~~
newscracker
I agree with many points you have stated and feel the same way about Facebook
(vs. Google or others), but I do believe there is a big difference between the
ethics and values of many Facebook employees and the evil things that Facebook
as a company and Mark Zuckerberg want to do. I'm sure they like working on
things that make a difference (including open sourcing some big impact stuff)
while at the same time not liking the privacy policies and what their employer
does with data collection.

~~~
thr0waway1239
I am yet to see even a single FB employee openly admit he/she is not happy
with "so and so" policy but wants to stay at FB to continue working on the
things which make an impact. And please give me a reference if this is
incorrect.

Put another way, the silence is starting to become too damning. What else do
they know but never talk about?

And yes, I feel the same way about every single one of the megacorps. However,
I fear FB the most. They already have a long track record of ruthlessness when
it comes to pushing the boundaries of ethical behavior.

------
matthewmacleod
I'm like 99% certain they've been doing this for a while. I've noticed that
anybody I talk to using WhatsApp quickly appears as a suggested contact on
Facebook. As far as I'm aware, I did nothing to enable this.

It does seem awfully creepy, but I guess if you care about privacy you're not
using Facebook much anyway…

~~~
TheCapn
How creepy Facebook is finally clicked for me after I gave my neighbor my
phone number once moving to a new neighborhood. You know... in case my house
lights on fire or something while I'm out.

That night Facebook was suggesting I add my elderly neighbors as friends. We
have 0 friends in common and I don't have Facebook installed on my phone (I
just use the browser) so the only excuse I have is when they added me they
must have some "share my contacts with Facebook" feature enabled. Now there's
some forever connection between them and me on Facebook's servers even though
I don't publicly link my phone number to Facebook, it's only added as a
password/security recovery.

~~~
wmkn
I am pretty sure Facebook also makes a friend suggestion to you when the other
person searched for your name or looked at your profile at any time in the
past. Maybe your neighbor searched for your name after you gave your phone
number to them.

~~~
binarymax
I believe FB also suggests based on location. If both were connected to FB on
their phones when meeting in person, the location metadata is used.

------
jamiesonbecker
To avoid this, simply collect and destroy any phones owned by your friends who
might have your phone number or email in their contact lists. I always use a
sledge hammer for this, but some people prefer a sturdy boot. Don't forget to
recycle!

~~~
creshal
I know it's a joke, but it got me wondering: What kind of treatment do you
need nowadays to actually safely destroy flash storage? I doubt a single smash
from a sledgehammer/boot has a good chance of destroying SIM _and_ internal
storage _and_ µSD card such that forensic analysis can't recover its data.
Thermite?

~~~
fractallyte
A microwave oven works really well... Only takes (literally!) 1 second. OK, 2
if you want to be thorough.

~~~
creshal
It's flashy, but does it really destroy the charge in the cells?

~~~
jamiesonbecker
Why make everything so difficult? So many options that it's hard to choose:
EMP, solar storms, lightning, pyroclastic flows.. just stand right next to any
cataclysmic cosmic event and you'll be taken care of.

------
franole
It's really sad how we lost control of our data.

I always refused to inform my phone number to facebook. But they definitely
try to guess it . It's funny how sometimes the FB app ask me "is xxxx xxxx
your number?" Well, luckily it still has not succeeded.

Once, I grabbed one of those guessed numbers and asked (over SMS) to that
unknown person what was his name. It was no surprise when he told me that we
have the same name and our surname started with the same letter.

I think now they will stop guessing.

~~~
chipperyman573
It just gave you a random valid phone number, along with a name (yours)?
Doesn't that qualify as leaking PII?

------
webwanderings
They're Facebook's property. They have all the rights to grab whatever the
heck they can find on you, to slice and dice the data for their advantage.

Stay two miles apart from their properties, if you do not wish to be touched.

~~~
mattnewton
I never was on whatsapp, but I can imagine signing up for a property pre-
aquisition and then being powerless to stop more of my data being sucked up by
Facebook. Is the only solution to never sign up for a service without a
privacy policy that lets you remove your data from the company in the event of
a sale? I don't think I have ever seen such a clause..

It's not that I don't want any of my data in Facebook, that's more trouble
than it's worth. It's that I don't want every detail of my life collated in
one place. regardless of what that place is.

------
steinsgate
What's the value of WhatsApp? It is the scale of the product. I use it because
most of my friends are on it. There are many other alternatives to WhatsApp as
pointed out by many in this thread, but none of them have nearly the same
traction.

The only business model that allows such scale is the ad supported model. If
WhatsApp was subscription based, I am sure they could not have achieved this
scale. And I wouldn't have found value in it.

I realize that the ad supported model is what indirectly adds so much value to
WhatsApp. Therefore, it makes sense to me to support that model if the model
is reasonable enough. They have end to end encryption, which means my content
is safe from prying eyes. That's already huge. So I really don't mind if they
share my number with Facebook.

~~~
sumitgt
WhatsApp is Ad supported? I don't think so. I believe until last year they
were subscription based.

~~~
jcfrei
They were and sometime last year turned everybody's subscription into a
lifetime subscription. I think it's only a matter of time until WhatsApp will
show ads. I see more and more content being shared through it - eventually it
will rival Facebook.

------
alexcason
"The ads would come through a Facebook program called "Custom Audiences,"
which lets a business upload lists of customers and phone numbers or other
contact information the business has collected from warranty cards or other
sources. Facebook matches the list to users with the same information and
shows them ads. Facebook says it doesn't give out users' information to
advertisers."

What happens if the advertiser uploads only one phone number to their
campaign? Will they then know for certain if the one user clicked on the
advert?

------
segmondy
This has been going on for the longest. My Facebook is for family and friends
and no coworkers. Google+ and Linkedin for coworkers. I have some of my
coworkers phone numbers, and have never exchanged whatsApp messages with them.
About earlier this year they all started showing up on my Facebook
suggestions. I don't have Facebook app, I only use it through the web
interface so it's not like they got to scan my contacts. This leads me to
strongly believe that WhatsApp is the culprit.

~~~
mercer
Search is another explanation. Almost everyone I know, including myself, will
search for pretty much anyone they interact with once they know a name. We're
just too curious.

~~~
segmondy
I don't use my real name on Facebook. Nor the email that's tied to my Facebook
account with my coworkers.

~~~
newscracker
It's possible that one or more of your co-workers just synced their contacts
list, with all your email addresses and your phone number, to Facebook. That
information, when intersected with the contacts list, with your phone number,
any of your friends or family members synced with Facebook, could provide your
details to Facebook (even if Facebook is not 100% sure, it might probably use
it).

------
vonklaus
Finally. I've been trying to give facebook my number for a while. I've tried:

* Downloading Instagram without reading permissions.

* Downloading whatsapp.

* Downloading facebook chat.

* Having friends upload their entire contacts lists to FB, WA, IG, and chat.

* Using the website on mobile and directly putting in the data.

* Using any of their services to message friends my number which becomes a perfectly formatted tel link.

* tweeting zuck.

Facebook has still managed to not retain my number. I mean, I'm still waiting
for them to phone me up. If you see this FB, call me maybe?

------
Jordrok
This is why using phone numbers as account identifiers is a bad idea. (For the
users, at least. Not necessarily for the companies who want to own those
users.)

~~~
dingaling
My wife, who is rather dedicated about keeping away from Facebook, ordered a
new pay-as-you-go SIM for use in an old Android phone specifically and only
for WhatsApp.

It seemed a bit of an expensive tactic, having to top-up with an initial £10,
but now I realise she was quite prescient.

~~~
pooper
Does she still have that number? If not, will the new owner get WhatsApp
messages sent to her if they use WhatsApp?

------
Natales
Facebook paid a boat load of cash for WhatsApp. Why did you think they did it?
out of the goodness of their heart? It's a business, people! and if you are
not paying for it, their revenue stream must come from somewhere else. You are
the product as much as the user. Get over it. If you don't like it, don't use
it. Use Signal instead, which I do, and it's great.

There are also alternatives like Wire, which is really good although it
doesn't have the adoption WhatsApp has.

~~~
kirkdouglas
They removed paid subscription several months ago. It seems that they can make
more money from matching WhatsApp and Facebook social graphs than from annual
subscription.

~~~
dhimes
That's truly remarkable. Facebook doesn't make that much money per users
(about $1/user/month, as best as I can figure). I know people who would pay
twice that for a privacy-keeping subscription tier.

~~~
rorykoehler
Do you know 2 billion people who would pay more than that for their privacy?

------
creshal
I'm surprised it took them so long.

~~~
gerbilly
Yeah, it's probably what they purchased WhatsApp for in the first place.

------
aquratic
What happens if a whatsapp user doesn't have a Facebook account? More
interestingly, what if a someone never uses FB account on his/her phone, like
I do?

~~~
csydas
The latter isn't relevant - Facebook has full access to the data and likely
has some major index to tie the two together. The simple communication data
from Whatsapp alone is enough to find enough reference points for a high-
confidence match with a Facebook profile.

As for the former, also likely irrelevant - Facebook has been keeping Shadow
Profiles [1-4] for some time now, and whether or not you have an account,
Facebook probably knows a lot about you just from what you/other people/your
browser leaks about you. This information likely will just be amalgamated into
the existing profile.

[1] [http://www.digitaltrends.com/social-media/what-exactly-
is-a-...](http://www.digitaltrends.com/social-media/what-exactly-is-a-
facebook-shadow-profile/)

[2] [http://www.digitaltrends.com/social-media/what-exactly-
is-a-...](http://www.digitaltrends.com/social-media/what-exactly-is-a-
facebook-shadow-profile/)

[3] [http://www.wired.com/2014/10/privacy-
friendster/](http://www.wired.com/2014/10/privacy-friendster/)

[4] [https://spideroak.com/articles/facebook-shadow-profiles-a-
pr...](https://spideroak.com/articles/facebook-shadow-profiles-a-profile-of-
you-that-you-never-created)

------
zanalyzer
I for one disapprove

------
kichuku
The article specifies that we can opt out of it. But it doesn't say how to do
it? Does it? Does anyone know how to opt out?

~~~
denzil_correa
Technically, you can but you a limited time window.

[https://www.whatsapp.com/faq/general/26000016](https://www.whatsapp.com/faq/general/26000016)

This is a dark pattern. In fact, once you say "Agree" you only have 30 days to
opt-out.

> After you agree to our updated Terms of Service and Privacy Policy, you will
> have an additional 30 days to make this choice by going to Settings >
> Account > Share my account info in the app.

I can't see such an option on my phone.

~~~
imron
> Technically, you can

Technically you can't

 _The Facebook family of companies will still receive and use this information
for other purposes such as improving infrastructure and delivery systems,
understanding how our services or theirs are used, securing systems, and
fighting spam, abuse, or infringement activities._

~~~
denzil_correa
There are some places where your phone number will be used regardless of your
choice - spam/abuse and there are some parts where it would not be used -
targeted ads.

------
nathanvanfleet
I'm quite certain that maybe Apple has been doing this for a while as well. I
can't seem to find any setting allowing FB to access my contacts but somehow
people I've only texted, called or communicated over email are showing as
suggestions too. But I'm not certain since they might have just cyber-stalked
me.

~~~
azdle
Could it be that those other people are sharing that info to facebook? They
only need one side to allow sharing contacts to find the connection.

------
2T1Qka0rEiPr
OK - I think we can all agree this is shit. What are the (serious)
alternatives?

~~~
newscracker
If you can convince even a few people in your network to try something
different, I'd suggest trying Telegram, Wire and Signal. Then decide which
works best for you to start pestering others too switch.

~~~
Grangar
But the problem with that is that users will flock back to whatsapp, because
everyone else is. We need a coherent movement to a single platform that
doesn't fracture everyone across platforms. We've seen that happen when
Whatsapp got acquired...

------
tlow
"My friends know not to call me" \- Ron (from Parks and Rec)

------
kallu
What's the big deal?

~~~
rvschuilenburg
WhatsApp has always said to take user privacy seriously. It's been one of
their arguments of being a subscription-based app instead of free when they
were not owned by Facebook yet: they didn't want to show any ads.

Now, this pretty much sums it up:

> Another change is potentially more controversial: WhatsApp says it will
> begin "coordinating" accounts with Facebook by sharing WhatsApp users'
> mobile phone numbers and device information, such as the type of operating
> system and other smartphone characteristics. The company says Facebook will
> employ the phone number internally to better identify WhatsApp users on
> Facebook, so it can recommend friends or show targeted advertising.

~~~
akerro
>WhatsApp has always said to take user privacy seriously.

and google has always said 'Don't be evil' lol

------
r00fus
Is anyone surprised by this move? This seems part and parcel of the $19B
purchase price.

Maybe now, they can make FacePhone a reality. Not having to worry about POTS
phone numbers when you're dialing someone is a killer feature.

------
kkm323
faceboook

------
kkm323
facebook

