
More businesses are not accepting cash - bookofjoe
https://www.wsj.com/articles/your-cash-is-no-good-here-literally-11546013696
======
acommentator
A real nightmare occurs when a large number of businesses don't accept cash.
As this process proceeds, people who are unbanked or can't get a credit care
are now not only locked out of the financial system, but also the monetary
system! It hugely centralizes the management of the entire consumer economy in
the hands of a few bankers who have no responsibility to the electorate - and
there's no escape valve.

I would see this practice immediately banned. If a note is legal tender for
all debts public and private, it is an attack on the monetary system to not
accept it. I can understand why individual businesses would rather not deal in
cash, but we can't allow their narrow interests to dominate the public
interest.

EDIT: It does make sense to not accept notes for large transactions (e.g. more
than a few hundred dollars), but it's crazy to not be able to buy toilet
paper.

~~~
jdietrich
>I would see this practice immediately banned.

That's just covering up for a bigger problem. If you've got a lot of people
without bank accounts, just make it easier to open a bank account. Here in the
UK, you can open an account in minutes on your mobile phone with any photo ID,
even if you're not a UK resident. Banks are required by the banking code to
offer fee-free accounts regardless of credit history and to accept a wide
range of identity documents, including letters from the welfare agency or a
homeless hostel.

[https://monese.com/](https://monese.com/)

[https://www.moneyadviceservice.org.uk/en/articles/basic-
bank...](https://www.moneyadviceservice.org.uk/en/articles/basic-bank-
accounts)

~~~
bicubic
The problem isn't about how difficult it may be to open an account. The
problem is that banks become gatekeepers for the ability to exchange legal
tender for goods and services.

I could write an entire essay on the problems this causes if cashless business
becomes wideapread. But a few highlights include:

* A positive feedback loop will form due to less cash being accepted => less cash circulating => less reason for businesses to accept cash

* Banks able to de-platform individuals and lock them out from access to life necessities

* Governments likewise able to de-platform individuals as a neat new way to oppress dissidents and undesirables

* The telco backbone of a nation becomes a one stop shop for a decapitating attack. Telco is also one of the first utilities to fail during natural disasters

* Impossible to purchase goods/services without it being logged, surveilled, and used to manipulate you with individualised advertising

* Once cash circulation drops below a critical point, opening or operating a business will not be possible without accepting card payments. That's your plumber, the kid who walks your dog, anyone offering any goods/services. Banks are now in control of who can _receive_ money in addition to who can spend it.

* Ditto for p2p transactions

Anything that threatens the universal acceptability of legal tender should be
viewed as a national security threat.

~~~
a3n
> Anything that threatens the universal acceptability of legal tender should
> be viewed as a national security threat.

I agree, but it depends on your point of view, I guess. Cash will itself
probably be portrayed as a "threat." After all, only drug dealers and people
too lazy to lift themselves up to bankable condition need cash. Right?

No-cash is an example of a middleman, or system of middlemen, locking up
something for themselves that was once "free."

Water, especially bottled water, can be an example. Gentically modified seeds
that produce sterile plants, in addition to some other benefit (Roundup-Ready)
is another.

~~~
bicubic
> After all, only drug dealers and people too lazy to lift themselves up to
> bankable condition need cash. Right?

Even if we accept that line of fallacy, the sum threat of everything that
could be done with illegal cash transactions is orders of magnitude smaller
than the threat of a cyber attack or natural disaster disabling all exchange
of money.

I don't think even the staunchest anti-cash proponents could seriously
advocate for building a house of cards out of our monetary system and creating
a much bigger problem than what anti-cash purports to solve.

~~~
a3n
> I don't think even the staunchest anti-cash proponents could seriously
> advocate for building a house of cards out of our monetary system and
> creating a much bigger problem than what anti-cash purports to solve.

I don't think anyone who could influence that decision would hesitate for an
instant, if it brought them money or power in their lifetime. You really have
to apply Kissinger's model of international relations (nations can be relied
on to act in their own self-interest) to individual politicians and other
wielders of direct power.

------
throwaway98121
Unrelated but husband and I stopped at an Indian grocery store to pick up some
items for a chicken tikka masala recipe we found on YouTube.

They insisted we pay cash, even though they had a machine to swipe a card.

We don’t carry cash and assumed their card machine was broken. As we
apologized and started leaving, they suddenly agreed to accept a credit card.

Presumably the transaction costs per swipe are high, although we were spending
about $30 and not 50 cents or something minuscule.

My more cynical side thinks they preferred cash because it’s harder to trace.
Credit card transactions are probably automatically reported to the IRS by the
payment processing company. Cash... well, unless the IRS sends someone to
physically to your location, it’s harder to trace and easy to dodge taxes.

~~~
TheChaplain
The transaction costs are unfortunately not negligible for small vendors, they
don't have the power to negotiate like Walmart et al.

~~~
eigenvector
Cash has transaction costs too, and those are already built into business
pricing:

1\. Time spent by staff counting and reconciling cash after close of business
or at the end of a shift

2\. Time spent on bank runs or on an armoured car service that picks up your
cash and deposits it at the bank

3\. Banks actually charge businesses cash-handling fees for both providing and
receiving large quantities of coins

4\. Safes and other security mechanisms for keeping cash on your premises

5\. Higher insurance premiums when you have lots of cash on hand

Businesses that completely eliminate cash also eliminate these costs.

~~~
gaius
I don't know why this is downvoted, anyone who has ever worked in retail knows
it's true.

------
newscracker
It's good to see some lawmakers siding _for the use of cash_ , which is most
unlike the ones in power wanting to curb freedom and increase surveillance
through their "war in cash". If all businesses stop accepting cash, we'd live
in a much poorer world of sorts.

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jzchang
This is anecdotal: here in Shanghai it's not uncommon that
vendors(specifically street-side small vendors) will turn down customers
paying with cash payments.

Those that do unwillingly sigh and look for change. Vendors all assume
immediately they're going to scan your QR code or you will scan theirs. Even
taxis have their QR Codes printed out on their dashboard somewhere. Subway
systems and buses all use QR codes.

Recently in the Carrefour, they started implementing POS systems with facial
scans for payment.

Funnily, there have even been occasions where foreign friends can't buy
themselves quick street food as all the stands refuse to accept their 100 RMB
cash for payment(no change, or digital only)

While I understand privacy is a strong concern(especially under our great
leader Xi \s) there is no doubt that the convenience of buying and selling
here is absolutely great. Sending money to friends is easy and painless. Makes
using Zelle, Apple Pay, and especially Venmo feel cumbersome.

~~~
bussiere
Do you have any link on the carrefour facial recognition please ?

~~~
jzchang
Here's a article(note that's in Chinese)

[http://www.sohu.com/a/232337523_610300](http://www.sohu.com/a/232337523_610300)

Next time I have the opportunity I'll take a picture of it as well, and post
it here

~~~
bussiere
thanks

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csomar
This problem can be solved by making it mandatory for banks to accept any
customer. I live in a country where the law oblige the bank to open an account
for anyone. By law, they can't refuse you.

There is also another solution: A government sponsored debit card. Maybe made
and managed by a government owned organisation (like the postal service).

~~~
cesarb
That only solves part of the problem. It doesn't solve the privacy issues, nor
the reliability issues (like when there's a communications outage). And
there's still the risk of a foreign country putting pressure on the payment
processors to deny use of cards to a particular customer or company.

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AngryData
While im sure im not the majority, any place that doesn't accept cash doesn't
get my business. Especially considering how good automated cash registers and
machines have gotten at reading cash, it isn't like shitty old vending
machines that require ideal condition and carefully placed bills. You can
basically throw your money at some of them now and they gobble it up even with
folded corners and shit and still read it fine.

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neonate
[https://outline.com/MzStTw](https://outline.com/MzStTw)

~~~
gameshot911
Cool, didn't know you own the rights to this WSJ article:

From the Outine.com T&C:

>You represent and warrant that you have the right to grant, to the Company an
irrevocable, perpetual, non-exclusive, transferable, fully paid, worldwide
license (with the right to sublicense) to use, copy, publicly perform,
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distribute such User Content for any purpose, commercial, advertising, or
otherwise, on or in connection with the Site or the promotion thereof, to
prepare derivative works of, or incorporate into other works, such User
Content, and to grant and authorize sublicenses of the foregoing.

~~~
drb91
The WSJ is free to file a DMCA claim.

------
Animats
I'm seeing more places adding a surcharge for credit cards.

What really bugs me is when someone ahead of me in line is using an affinity
card. Typing in their phone number. Cash is faster than many of the cloud-
based POS systems.

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yellowapple
It boggles me that federal law _doesn 't_ already prohibit this. What's the
point of designating something as legal tender if businesses can refuse to
allow a customer to use it?

~~~
lozenge
Legal tender only applies to debts.

~~~
yellowapple
Which would include the debt you've incurred after having already received a
haircut or a meal, no? Or is that somehow not classified as a debt even though
it walks, talks, and looks like a debt?

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a3n
I was at a truck stop in Wyoming the other day. "Our internet is down."
Breakfast was cash only. Scaling your truck was cash only. I see the word
"satellite" on a lot of pumps, but my ignorant assumption is that buying fuel
is still dependent on a working internet. Or cash.

I didn't fuel there, so I don't know if fueling was affected. But I have been
to other truck stops where "our system is down" and I couldn't fuel (I don't
carry _that_ much cash, but some do). I had to call my company to get fueling
authorized elsewhere.

There are other types of walking-around non-cash payment systems besides
credit/debit cards. If you want to go nosing around:

[https://duckduckgo.com/?q=trucking+fuel+card&t=lm&ia=web](https://duckduckgo.com/?q=trucking+fuel+card&t=lm&ia=web)

Of those, my employer uses Comdata for fueling and other expenses:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comdata](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comdata)

Paying for "lumpers" (a third party loading/unloading service) is done (in our
company) with a Comcheck, an actual paper check, that requires using the
truck's communication terminal _and_ making a phone call to get authorization.
[https://duckduckgo.com/?q=comcheck+comdata&t=lm&ia=web](https://duckduckgo.com/?q=comcheck+comdata&t=lm&ia=web)

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pbhjpbhj
Should government have a cashless infrastructure to avoid there being a base
cost to all transactions paid to private (non-domestic) businesses?

The actual cost of a credit card transaction must be 1/1000th of what our
business is charged.

As soon as CC charges became hidden Visa/MasterCard decided to say "screw you"
to society and double their "tax". They need cutting out of retail.

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czl_my
As someone who have worked in audit, I can see why business would choose not
to accept cash considering the amount of fraud taking place. It is much easier
for a cashier to take the cash and not issue/re-use receipts. Maybe the
transaction fees would be lesser than the probability*amount of cash-related
fraud.

~~~
randomacct3847
I thought one of the main benefits to accepting cash is to underreport revenue
for tax purposes.

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diebeforei485
This makes sense in urban areas. Kids and anyone else without a bank account
can walk in to any grocery store and use their cash to purchase one of those
loadable prepaid cards.

~~~
drivingmenuts
You can lose money on those cards, if you can’t extract the full value of the
card. You are effectively handing the retailer free money in small amounts,
which they are totally aware of.

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hndamien
If only there were some alternative digitally native way of transferring value
so we could get the benefits of cashless without it downsides.

