
How To Actually Win A Fist Fight - iuguy
http://blog.joethepeacock.com/2008/01/how-to-acutally-win-fist-fight.php?pagewanted=all
======
jbooth
Great advice for a boxing or MMA match. For barfights:

A) Don't.

B) Swing first, while the guy's still jawing at you and before he thinks
you'll actually do it. Don't threaten to punch someone or step outside, just
punch them. A sucker punch is by far the best way to hit someone square in the
jaw.

C) Keep hitting him. Contrary to the article, there's one great time to kick
someone in a fight, it's while they're down.

D) Again, seriously, don't.

~~~
PostOnce
E] Pick up a chair and break it on their skull, kick them in the groin, gouge
eyes, go for the throat, stomp head, whatever it takes to make them go down
and stay down.

You could be seriously hurt/killed in a fight, so don't give the other guy the
opportunity to do it to you. If you're not willing to go that far, you
shouldn't be fighting.

If you can cause them to realize that this is not a game and you're not two
kids slapping each other, and that this is a situation that could

1] get them killed

and

2] be avoided

they might give it a second thought.

~~~
earnubs
Which action movie did you just walk in from? If you progress from bar fight
to attempted murder like this what happens is people pull you off the guy, the
police come, you get arrested. That's if you're lucky.

~~~
PostOnce
I guess we live in different places and people from different places approach
things differently. I don't get in fights any more because I don't
particularly feel like being hospitalized again, and some of my acquaintances
are dead.

If I have a choice, I walk away. But if I stay, the reason must be good enough
for me to go hard instead of going home.

The only place I've ever seen a fight broken up was at school, and even then,
rarely. Teachers don't want to get hurt over nothing. So much for "people pull
you off the guy".

My point was just that, you can technically be killed with a single hit. Don't
approach fights like you will be fine. Don't assume people will pull the guy
off you. Your life is at risk regardless of how mundane it may seem. Take it
seriously.

While I'm lecturing, take driving your car seriously too. Flying down the road
in a metal box surrounded by people who aren't paying attention isn't safe
either. :P

------
ryanelkins
I always think its funny when a bunch of nerds start talking about how to win
a fight. I say that as a nerd who got beat up and pushed around a lot in
elementary up through high school. Once I could afford it I made it a point to
study self defense, not so that I could fight, but so I at least had the
confidence to know how to handle myself.

Learning to fight for its own sake is dumb if your plan is to do it outside of
a structured sporting event. Keep in mind I don't mean self defense. Most
people won't get into a fight unless they feel extremely confident about
winning. That could mean they are much bigger, well trained, armed, have lots
of friends, etc. If you don't know how to defend yourself, you probably won't
figure it out in the time it takes someone to punch you. The best defense is
to know when to get out.

Just had a big confrontation with someone at a bar? The time to leave is NOW
(before he comes back with friends, a bottle to the back of the head, finds
you stumbling out drunk, etc). During that confrontation? Keep your hands up
and the other person away from you - pretty much the same stance as if you
were going to throw a punch but with your hands open. Don't turn your back to
someone who is aggressive - back away slowly.

If worse comes to worse you won't remember any techniques you read here or
elsewhere unless you've practiced them A LOT. Just try and remember that while
there are no rules you shouldn't try to escalate a fight any more than you
need to in order to get away. What I mean by this is if someone shoves you,
just walk away. IF you throw a punch then they throw a punch, etc. You hit a
guy and he goes down? Great, now leave. Start kicking him now and maybe his 2
or 3 friends decide it's a good time to jump in instead of helping their
friend up. Don't escalate a situation unnecessarily.

If you want more than this - go take Krav Maga classes for a year or two -
then you'll at least (hopefully) be able to throw a decent punch without
hurting yourself.

------
T_S_
My wife went to high school with a big, nice guy who got in a fight in his
senior year. He connected to the other guy's jaw. The other guy fell, hit his
head, and later died. A manslaughter charge was the least of his problems; the
guilt was worse.

Turn the other cheek. Avoid sustained eye contact with drunk men in bars.
Drive courteously.

~~~
angrycoder
That kind of fluke thing could have just have easily have happened to the
'nice guy', and he would be the dead one right now. Its not clear who in your
story was the aggressor, but there is no shame in defending yourself. And of
course, violence is always the last option.

~~~
T_S_
Pure self-defense, sure, no legal guilt and no public shame. Privately, who
knows? They were both 'nice guys' BTW.

~~~
AndyKelley
How can the other guy be a 'nice guy' if it was pure self-defense? Was he just
having a rotten day?

~~~
T_S_
The first sentence of my reply was in the hypothetical world posed by the
previous message. As to the actual fight, I don't know who started the fight,
or who had pure motives. The judgement of 'nice' is more to indicate that we
are not talking about 'badass' guys who made a habit of fighting.

~~~
AndyKelley
I understand. It's a good point. There aren't really any evil people. Just
stupid decisions.

------
nhashem
This post talks a lot about stance and how to throw a punch, and it does
mention grappling but if you're talking about your standard bar fight then I
think grappling is where everything happens. How often have you seen a bar
fight where two people circled each other, jabbing and feinting like a boxing
match? More often than not they grapple messily, go to the ground, flail
around some more at each other, and then their friends break them up.

I wrestled (scholastic wrestling) in high school and college, and that
experience has helped me tremendously in whatever bar scuffles I've ended up
with. If anyone did want actual advice on how to win a bar fight, the first
thing I'd suggest is they take lessons in something like freestyle wrestling
or judo. If you can handle yourself in close quarters, you can negate a lot of
what a bigger or stronger opponent could do.

One more thing, since I see some people advocating "just knock him out with a
2x4 while he's still jawing at you" -- as I almost learned the hard way in
college, if you throw the first punch, that's assault. It's very tempting when
some idiot is jawing at you to just end things before they start, but then he
could call the cops and press charges and you'll have a huge legal hassle to
deal with for the next year. Once he swings at you, retaliation is self-
defense and it's fair game.

------
dkarl
You're probably going to forget everything you read in this article in a month
unless you review it on a regular basis, and if you're going to go to that
much effort, you might as well sign up for a real class and get some
experience throwing another person's body around!

If you don't want to spend time learning and practicing fighting techniques,
but you're worried about how you'll fare in a fight, add this to the long list
of reasons to keep yourself strong and well-conditioned. Technique is a
strength multiplier, and you don't have any technique. An experienced fighter
is a wonder of efficency and minimal effort; you won't be. It's amazing how
fast you can get tired in a situation where you're going all out (and it's a
bad idea to work any less hard than the other guy -- that's another strategy
that's only for people who practice and have real skill!)

~~~
KoZeN
_It's amazing how fast you can get tired in a situation where you're going all
out_

This is a point that gets overlooked far too often. I have seen plenty of
people in peak physical fitness run out of steam after 2 to 3 minutes.

What most people forget is that as well as physical exertion your body
releases a massive amount of adrenaline the second a punch is thrown and that
wipes you out. It's called an adrenaline dump and it honestly feels like your
legs have turned to jelly and you feel like you have zero power behind your
punches.

Moral of the story; hit hard and be accurate.

------
mhd
1) Don't use a fist. I recommend the shotgun, but if you've got enough
distance, you might as well use the rocket launcher.

2) Watch lots of MMA fights. They perfectly model brawls. If it ever happens
that two people gang up on you, call the referee and make sure the cameraman
sees your outrage.

3) If you repeatedly get beat up, I recommend getting a fighter level. Yes,
you might miss out on caster progression, but you can't really enjoy your
Meteor Swarm while curled up on the tavern floor.

4) Up Up Down Down Left Right Left Right B A

~~~
lenley
start

------
duncan_bayne
This article is highly relevant to this thread:
<http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/violence_geeks.htm>

Premise: "There is a phenomenon out there that I call "Violence Geeks." They
are a group of individuals who are fixated on the 'idea' of violence.' At the
same time, they are terrified of being victims of actual violence. They are an
ugly blend of anger, aggressiveness, self-loathing, fear and paranoia. On the
plus side, their fear keeps them in check. On the negative side, they are a
case of mens rea addressed "To whom it may concern.""

I'm posting this because I used to fall squarely into that category myself.
Several years and a few reality checks later, I don't.

But if you read that headline and thought "wow, I must read that" then I'd
also have a serious read of the Violence Geeks article and try to work out
whether it applies, even in part, to you.

In addition, look at the following causes of death in the USA:
<http://www.the-eggman.com/writings/death_stats.html> (note that AFAICT deaths
due to firearms includes negligent discharges & suicides.) You'll note that
that table doesn't include 'violence done by strangers.'

If you enjoy martial arts, shooting, etc. in and of themselves, then go right
ahead and train. Otherwise, you are probably acting irrationally by investing
a lot of time and money in training.

~~~
Pinckney
I am glad you posted this. Most of the site should be required reading for you
if you give any thought to self defense. Particularly "How NOT to get shot"
and "What is Self-Defense."

Possibly the most important point it makes is how easy it is to go too far and
become the aggressor once you are in a violent conflict. Or to inflame that
conflict to begin with.

"The real problem is that -- once the emotions have died down -- you may have
to face the fact that your actions and words were part of the creation and
escalation of the situation. And they might have been an overreaction on your
part."

------
dansingerman
Is this hacker news, or a crappy men's lifestyle magazine board?

I mean, really?

~~~
m3mb3r
Agreed. I like this post but HN is not the place for it.

~~~
iuguy
I apologise. I was uhmming and ahhing about whether or not to post it. I felt
that whether or not it's genuinely a HN-type discussion, particularly the on-
topicness of it.

As penance for those that didn't like the first post, I've posted some Erlang
tutorials here: <http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1912062>

In the end I went for it for two reasons. Firstly I'd say it's arguably on-
topic at the moment, given that the top comments still have comments from the
other thread. I think a couple of weeks from now and it wouldn't be, but while
it's fresh in people's minds who participated in the original discussion, I
felt it was a well written piece that gave some good advice (and perhaps some
not so good advice for all situations).

More importantly, from <http://ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html> I read
this:

If you had to reduce it to a sentence, the answer might be: anything that
gratifies one's intellectual curiosity.

The discussions on the original thread talked a lot about what people
would/did do, but a lot of people didn't seem to understand the risks as an
adult. I felt that people would enjoy this, but that some wouldn't.

So I apologise to those that don't like it for posting it - I understand
entirely where you're coming from, but I posted it for those that took part in
the previous discussion. Hopefully it'll run it's course and we can all go
back to talking about Erlang again.

~~~
T_S_
Relax. Men of any sort cannot resist the topic. And if they could, the story
would simply disappear.

------
aspir
My advice:

A)Don't anger people deliberately/don't fight

B)Don't think (harder than you'd imagine). Thinking leads to calculating,
which leads to hesitation, even in the best. In fact good fighters become
great by going on instinct rather than conscious decisions.

C)Go _bleeping_ crazy. He's trying to inflict real harm on you- looking
cool/honorable is for movies. Go for the eyes, nose and groin; that's actually
Bruce Lee 101 -- fast, and to the critical areas. Become an animal. Disable
(psychologically or physically) them as quickly as possible.

D)Run away. Fast. No one comes to a bar alone, and there will likely be
"vigilantes" anyway. High tail it ASAP, and throw come courtesy cash to the
bar/host.

E)If you're losing from the beginning in any way, you're not going to pull a
comeback. This isn't Rocky. Break away and get out ASAP. See D.

~~~
electromagnetic
> C)Go bleeping crazy. He's trying to inflict real harm on you- looking
> cool/honorable is for movies. Go for the eyes, nose and groin; that's
> actually Bruce Lee 101 -- fast, and to the critical areas. Become an animal.
> Disable (psychologically or physically) them as quickly as possible.

I'd like to note, I got out of several fights in highschool by simply laughing
when I got hit. It disconcerts people when you act unexpectedly.

Also;

F) If there's no way out, grab a weapon. In the movies, getting hit over the
head with a beer bottle is nothing more than an inconvenience, however in
reality it'll either give a concussion or, as happened recently in my area,
cause multiple fractures to the skull.

When you're in a fight, assume they're trying to kill you. Respond
accordingly. If you almost kill someone, who cares as long as you didn't start
the fight. Don't get caught, don't leave a business card. If the cops come,
you get a lawyer and claim self defense. At least you're alive and okay.

------
Swizec
As a guy who's been training boxing for a year or so I can safely say his
guard stance makes no sense. Not even in Irish boxing, which is basically what
a barfight is.

Your strong arm should be your back arm, that way you can rotate your whole
body when you punch and put a lot more weight into it.

~~~
electromagnetic
> his guard stance makes no sense

Yeah, who the hell does he think he is, Rocky?!

How can you train for boxing for a year and not know how a southpaw stands? I
would seriously consider changing where your training, because any competitive
fight against a southpaw and you'll be slaughtered if you're not trained for
it. Given that 10% of people are lefties, it won't be many fights before you
face one.

If you're not trained for a southpaw, you're not trained. The rules, the
tactics, _everything_ is pointless. You watch for hits from the wrong side,
you throw hits to the wrong side, you block wrong, you dodge wrong.

~~~
Swizec
Yes, a southpaw stands differently. However even a southpaw has strong-
arm==back-arm, it's just the other arm.

The article doesn't describe a southpaw, it describes a rightie standing as if
they were a southpaw (which they aren't)

And no I haven't had the opportunity to actually spar with a southpaw, I'm
sure it's gonna be fun though :)

~~~
bmelton
It's not fun. It sucks a great deal. Some people get the hang of it better
than others, but generally speaking, it's a very awkward (and painful)
learning curve.

~~~
Swizec
Let me rephrase: it would be fun in a training environment, not in a
competitive environment.

~~~
electromagnetic
A southpaw is more than twice as likely to win a fight (or at least 1/2 as
likely to lose based on the stats), perhaps it would be better to learn to
fight southpaw than learn to fight _a_ southpaw.

I was looking for the stats earlier, sorry I didn't post them. Here's the
abstract on it: <http://bjsportmed.com/content/43/2/142.abstract>

> Results: Left-handed boxers had been involved in 75–800 fights (mean 120.6),
> with 5–79 lost (mean 19.32). A similar evaluation was made for the right-
> handed boxers. The right-handed boxers had been involved in 50–820 fights
> (mean 127. 8), with 23–78 lost (mean 42.25). Left-handed boxers were found
> to be more successful than right-handed ones. The difference between them
> was found to be significant (p<0.01).

------
runT1ME
>Get on your side or belly

I'm going to say that this guy is a fraud.

exposing the back of your head is the absolute _worst_ thing you could do.

You're 100% better off eating 100 punches right in the face. This guy is an
idiot.

------
duncan_bayne
Also check out this manual: <http://www.tsroadmap.com/early/tough.pdf>

It's a manual for hand-to-hand combat, as taught to British Commandos & other
special forces during WWII.

Something to bear in mind: if you strike someone, he might die.

I read of a chap who hit someone in a bar fight; that someone fell over,
struck his head on a counter-top and died later that night. The person who
threw the punch was aiming for a career in law enforcement; that dream ended
for him that night.

Of course this goes both ways, which is why you should take _any_ threat of
physical violence _very_ seriously.

~~~
TheAmazingIdiot
That goes to show that if anybody lays their hand on you in a threatening
manner in places like bars, you have the duty to protect yourself and those
you care for around you.

Just be prepared TO take a life of someone else who is ready to do the same to
you. Or better yet, learn to mitigate these situations by not pubcrawling.

~~~
duncan_bayne
Gabe Suarez (don't know him personally, haven't trained with him, just read
some of his stuff) was always fond of telling people to avoid the 'three
stupids'.

Don't hang out with stupid people. Don't do stupid things. Don't go to stupid
places.

Do that, wear a seatbelt (or a helmet if you ride) & you're 99.99% of the way
to a safe life.

------
The_Igor
Last time I had a physical confrontation at a bar, the first thing the guy did
is make sure I could see a handgun behind his belt. Needless to say I walked
away immediately.

Avoid this crap at all costs. Not worth dying over.

------
chesser
You never "win".

Having been in a hospital due to an accident, I would never want to put anyone
else in there.

And if I was put there by someone else, I would probably have been obsessed
with getting back at them.

So to "win" actually just means to "shift trauma around for a while".

I mean, just look at how popular this article is at the moment. There is a lot
of latent resentment from being on the receiving end of violence. If you're on
the end that's dishing it out, you're just putting other people where you used
to be. And you know how that feels.

Also keep in mind that reading an article on fighting makes you about as good
at fighting as reading an article on surgery makes you a surgeon. You're
liable to make things even worse. If you REALLY want to know how to fight,
practice some martial art that takes streetfighting seriously. It's remarkably
easy to lose an eye or a testicle.

Additionally, you can't afford to trade 1-for-1 with a drunken asshole. It's
like defensive driving -- some people are set on eventually making themselves
smoking corpses in a burning wreck, so it's better to get out of the asshole's
way than be that other party in the burning wreck.

Getting away from a bad situation IS self-defense.

------
angrycoder
This kind of article is just irresponsible. It is going to give you a false
sense of confidence and you will just end up getting hurt, or worse.

If you are really interested in learning how to defend yourself, you really
should seek professional instruction.

And some of the information in the article is just flat out wrong,
particularly where he talks about fighting multiple opponents.

------
logicalmind
If you want to read a book on how your body will react to conflict situations,
I highly recommend this book:

[http://www.amazon.com/Meditations-Violence-Comparison-
Martia...](http://www.amazon.com/Meditations-Violence-Comparison-Martial-
Training/dp/1594391181)

It's not a book about fighting. It's about how your bodies mental and physical
senses react to violent situations.

------
cloudbrain
Best advice I've ever heard:

"End the fight as fast as possible."

This isn't the movies. There are no "cool moves". If you have never done it
before, striking another person is emotionally difficult. Your biggest
problems are fear, self-doubt and above all, hesitation. Make each blow count.
If you swing, do it with the intention of ending the fight with the one hit.
Most likely your first swing will be half-strength as your mind deals with the
shock of the situation, your own moral issues, fear etc. Either run away or
end the fight as fast as possible.

Ps.. I've never been in a fight. Never been bullied. Don't go to bars and
don't drink. So what do I know. But this has always seemed liked the best
advice.

------
iuguy
Given the discussion at <http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1895057> I
thought I'd post this in the hope it may be useful to some of the
participants.

------
kbatten
Just like anything, if you want to be good at something then you practice.

~~~
gojomo
10,000 hours.

------
VladRussian
there is no 100% algorithm. From my experience:

\- 3 guys, i'm sober and scared as sh!t, trying to not let them close in,
finally see a chance and put all my fear into mavashi gari into the jaw of the
central guy, the leader. I'm fortunate enough to get him knocked down, the
others 2 stop attacking me.

\- 7 guys, i'm absolutely drunk and have no doubts that i would easily take
them on. Quickly closing in, delivering a straight right to one (this one is
down), a jab to another (stepped back). Next moment the punches and kicks of
the rest of the team reach me. It just blows me away, something gets into my
legs from behind and i'm down. The kicks continue and continue without
interruption. Assume fetal position ...

~~~
aphyr
Totally tangential question--in American English the transliteration is
"mawashi-geri". Does V sound as W in Russian?

~~~
VladRussian
there is only one character in Russian, which would mark either "V" style
sound - "veterany" or "W" - "dvor". In most cases direct transliteration from
Russian to English uses "V" character for that Russian character, even though
it may sound more like "W".

------
kschua
Actually, "Don't Fight" shouldn't be the first thing. The first thing is
"Avoid places where people are looking for fights".

------
lhorie
This is stupid. Just buy a taser or pepper spray if you _really_ think you
need it (you probably don't).

