
Brass and lead toxicity in midrange espresso machines - hedora
http://coffeegeek.com/forums/espresso/machines/728315?Page=1
======
Bud
One thing I noticed was that the guy who tested the shots from a Silvia was
very proud of his scientific rigor, but never bothered to test (or at least he
didn't mention it) whether there was lead in the water he put into the machine
to begin with. Which for me renders his results meaningless.

~~~
jrpelkonen
Disclaimer: I am not a subject matter expert. But I would like to point out
that the collection section begins with: "With spring water in the machine".
One would presume the "spring water" means lead-free as it has not been
subjected to lead piping.

I, too, am a bit suspicious as the numbers seems to vary a lot and, with the
exception of first 24h collection, the lead-content decreases while the time
of exposure increases. But I wouldn't call the results meaningless.

~~~
TeMPOraL
> _One would presume the "spring water" means lead-free as it has not been
> subjected to lead piping._

You would presume. Still, the whole analysis now hinges on that one thing -
what really was in that "spring water". Maybe some lead got in there in some
way they didn't expect. Or maybe they're just lying and that spring water was
really tap water. Or maybe it really was lead-free. Point is, this is a core
thing that should've been tested, and not doing so implies either malice or
laziness, neither of which instill confidence in the research.

~~~
asaph
Hanlon's razor applies here.

"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."

\--
[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanlon%27s_razor](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanlon%27s_razor)

~~~
mannykannot
Hanlon's razor would only apply if the person doing the test was being accused
of deliberately ignoring the issue of initial water quality for malicious
purposes. Besides that, it is a simple, judgement-free fact that if you are
measuring how much a device changes something, you have to compare the output
to the input, independently of any hypotheses about how the input got to be
the way it is.

~~~
asaph
Hanlon's Razor applies because the GP literally accused the person of malice.
Direct quote:

> Point is, this is a core thing that should've been tested, and not doing so
> implies either malice or laziness...

~~~
philippejara
he literally accused the person of either malice or laziness, not of malice.
The either is pretty important.

~~~
asaph
He's accusing him of malice or he's accusing him of laziness. Hanlon's razor
applies to the former and not the latter. You're splitting hairs.

------
toni78
The German Federal Institute for Risk Assessment also published some results
from their research on lead migrating from espresso machines into the used
water ([http://mobil.bfr.bund.de/cm/343/freisetzung-von-blei-aus-
kaf...](http://mobil.bfr.bund.de/cm/343/freisetzung-von-blei-aus-kaffee-und-
espressomaschinen.pdf) and
[http://www.bfr.bund.de/de/fragen_und_antworten_zur_freisetzu...](http://www.bfr.bund.de/de/fragen_und_antworten_zur_freisetzung_von_blei_aus_kaffee__und_espressomaschinen-188539.html)).
Based on that, there is a huge thread in a German coffee board
([https://www.kaffee-netz.de/threads/bfr-studie-zu-blei-in-
sie...](https://www.kaffee-netz.de/threads/bfr-studie-zu-blei-in-siebtraegern-
nach-entkalkung.77463/)) where you can find several test results for different
machines.

------
rmetzler
I don't have much to add to the discussion about coffee machines. I just want
to say, that Britta water filters (and potentially those of other brands) leak
silver ions into the filtered water. This is to reduce the green algae in the
container.

But I would guess, it also changes the microbiome in the human gut. I would
love to see some research regarding this, because I stopped drinking water
from the water filter when I was really depressed. My depression faded and
there might me a causal link or not, I don't know.

~~~
castle-bravo
There might be something to that. IIRC, intestinal flora synthesize serotonin
[0].

[0]
[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4393509/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4393509/)

------
peterwwillis
Another good set of studies to compare against are those showing leaching of
lead from crystal decanters with hard liquor. Where the amount of lead leached
may be gargantuan initially, the level leached out shrinks over time until it
reaches a certain low threshold, which at least one study showed was possibly
due to a kind of protecting coating developing over the crystal.

If the author found that water shots had a high concentration of lead, it
could be that this level would taper off over time, or even that some other
contaminant was at play. It could also be the lab gave back inaccurate
results. And even with high concentrations of lead, it's possible that
interactions with the content of the espresso could reduce the effect on the
consumer. A study of actual concentrations of levels of lead in the blood of
the espresso drinker should be evaluated.

------
peterbecich
I appreciated this simple overview:
[https://www.seattlecoffeegear.com/blog/2011/02/04/keeping-
yo...](https://www.seattlecoffeegear.com/blog/2011/02/04/keeping-you-and-your-
machine-healthy/)

~~~
steve19
That overview says plated boilers are safe. Yet apparently they are not
according to the forum post above.

------
pervycreeper
So much for the Silvia I had been planning to get. Relatedly, I've been having
trouble finding an under the counter water filtration system which does not
involve putting the water into extensive contact with plastic. Maybe there
just aren't enough people concerned about such things in order to affect the
market. On the other hand, in-demand, easy & low cost to implement features
such as built in PIDs have not made their way into mid-level machines as
standard features, so maybe (baseless speculation incoming:) competing brands
have an informal entente to add in improvements no faster than is absolutely
necessary.

~~~
justAnotherNET
I’d love an all glass filter system to replace my plastic one now.

One concern is... what difference would that make in the pre-filter housing if
the water goes through plastic pipes anyways to get to you?

~~~
pervycreeper
One can't ever expect the filtration to be perfect, not to mention any contact
that happens "downstream".

------
tianheyang
It would be interesting to see the results from NSF and ROHS-approved home
machines from manufacturers like Nuova Simonelli, La Marzocco, and Astra.

I also wonder how effective water scale deposits on the boiler are at
mitigating lead - doing tests on new-ish machines without much scale buildup
could be a factor in these results.

Stainless is becoming more of a popular alternative to brass and copper, but
isn't as effective of a thermal conductor and is not as malleable. For steam
boilers and heat exchanger systems, being able to expand and deform under high
pressure is a desirable feature.

~~~
cperciva
_For steam boilers and heat exchanger systems, being able to expand and deform
under high pressure is a desirable feature._

I'm curious, why? Presumably it's more than just the fact that deformation
allows for less catastrophic overpressure failure?

~~~
tianheyang
Correct, there is a lower chance of an explosion.

------
YZF
I have a Saeco Aroma which according to its specs is all stainless steel.
Looks like that one is ok.

~~~
defterGoose
It may be an all-stainless chassis, but in a $250 dollar machine, my guess is
you're getting a brass boiler.

Edit: nope, you're right. SS boiler apparently

~~~
c3833174
A stainless boiler is just 2 stainless steel cups held togheter by a clamp, it
shouldn't affect the price much, my 120€ delonghi has one.

~~~
defterGoose
Yeah, I was pretty much assuming that all the cheap machines would use
standard small diameter copper plumbing rather than pay for all stainless
fittings all the way through (which would be somewhat specialized from a
plumbing perspective), so it wouldn't really matter much whether the boiler
itself was or not.

------
gdubs
I own the Gaggia Classic, and as far as I know it uses aluminum or stainless
steel (depending on the year) for the boiler. It's a semi-automatic machine,
and personally I love it. Barista grade portafilter, makes a very good
espresso. I replaced the steam wand with the Rancilio Silvia wand for better
steam action; it's a simple five minute job and worth doing if you go with
this machine.

------
galadran
This report looks to have examined the same question in the EU and seems less
alarmed:

[https://www2.mst.dk/Udgiv/publications/2015/09/978-87-93352-...](https://www2.mst.dk/Udgiv/publications/2015/09/978-87-93352-66-7.pdf)

~~~
toufka
The report monitored "ready-to-drink espresso coffee from 8 cafes and gas
stations... purchased in the Copenhagen area."

The OP's forum is talking about particular (older) mid-range personal espresso
machines which use brass boilers, like the Silvia V3:
[https://www.thecoffeebrewers.com/rasihoofesan1.html](https://www.thecoffeebrewers.com/rasihoofesan1.html)
Those are not generally found in higher-end-coffee-selling cafes.

The report did note that one of the espresso machines tested in Copenhagen put
out levels of lead greater than what was considered disconcerting in the OP's
forum's calculations: 65ng/ml vs the 20-40ng/ml found in Rob's testings.

But even so, they still conclude that such levels are not a particular health
risk in their mind. From the report:

> "The concentration in ready to drink espresso from cafes was similar to the
> homebrewed coffee in all but one sample, which had a concentration of 65
> ng/ml. Even if a consumer has a daily cup of coffee from this cafe it will
> not be of health concern. The correlation between tin and lead described
> earlier indicate that the source of the high value could be a lead
> containing welding in the espresso machine."

~~~
azinman2
There is no safe amount of lead.

~~~
sgtmas2006
There are acceptable amounts.

~~~
azinman2
“No amount of lead is safe.”

[https://www.niehs.nih.gov/health/topics/agents/lead/index.cf...](https://www.niehs.nih.gov/health/topics/agents/lead/index.cfm)

~~~
human
I had no idea lead was so bad for you. It’s terrible.

------
newsbinator
I wonder how this applies to all the instant coffee vending machines around
South Korea and Japan.

The ones within subways and outside bus stations feel the most suspect.

And some of those bus drivers and maintenance workers drink from those
10x/day.

------
MistahKoala
The list mentioned in the last posted comment would be helpful to see, if
anybody has it available.

------
mperham
Link is from 2006.

------
master_ant
Site unaccessible from VPN. Guise I promise I'm not a spammer I just value my
privacy :'(

