
German Kindergarten Campouts Test Helicopter Parents (2015) - eru
https://www.wsj.com/articles/german-kindergarten-campouts-test-helicopter-parents-1451338940
======
lispm
Brush up your German and see this recent report of a day in a
Waldkindergarten... Kindergarten in the forest - which is a popular concept in
Germany.

[http://www.ardmediathek.de/tv/Landesschau-Baden-
Württemberg/...](http://www.ardmediathek.de/tv/Landesschau-Baden-
Württemberg/Ein-Tag-im-Waldkindergarten/SWR-Baden-
Württemberg/Video?bcastId=250286&documentId=47325508)

The video speaks for itself: It shows a day in the Waldkindergarten of the
Sonnenkinder, the 'sun children'. A woman from Canada has her son for the
second day there. Another father reports that his son made problems at home
and here is busy at any weather. When every child arrived, they walk 20
minutes together to the Waldtheater - the Forest Theater - the green living
room. The first group made fire, already - a daily ritual. They also get
something to do with various tools. One of the youngest is 2 y 9m and has
somebody looking after him. The small children see it as a magical place. It's
not allowed to harm the nature. At the end of the day every child has made its
own personal experience, they walk back together and are looking forward to
the next day in the forest.

~~~
Symbiote
They're also very popular in Denmark, and the rest of Scandinavia.

Description in English: [http://denmark.dk/en/meet-the-danes/forest-
preschools](http://denmark.dk/en/meet-the-danes/forest-preschools)

And a small documentary:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jkiij9dJfcw](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jkiij9dJfcw)

An equally significant difference for me, coming from the UK, is that there
are _men_ working in childcare. My window overlooks a street where a lot of
nursery and primary school groups walk past on their way to the park, and my
guess is half the adults are men. I was 9 years old in England when I first
had a male teacher.

~~~
eru
I can see that hanging out in the forest and building fires etc, would
definitely attract me (as a guy) more towards childcare than having to be
bored indoors all year.

~~~
King-Aaron
This is why I think there is strong value in preserving organisations such as
the Scouts and Girl Guides. Kids should definitely have these experiences -
both boys and girls.

I'm a bit biased, as I was in the scouts for 17 years... In Australia that was
Joey Scouts, Cub Scouts, Scouts, Venturer Scouts and Rovers. Theres a group
for basically every age.

I feel that years of predatory leaders may have irreversibly damaged the
reputation of the organisation though.

------
gumby
> In rule-bound Germany, growing up is surprisingly rule-free.

"Rule-bound" Germany is a common stereotype in the US (and admittedly Germans
love ,,Ordnung'') but the US feels far more rule driven.

My son (now adult) grew up back and forth in both the US and Germany. As a
very small kid (knowing nothing of politics) he once referred to Germany "the
land of freedom" because in the US people were always telling him what _not_
to do.

I had him in a German school in the US for a while. The US parents complained
a lot about how dangerous things were (e.g. kindergarteners with access to
hammers, nails, hot glue guns and the like).

~~~
sliverstorm
Age-appropriate hammers, nails, and hot glue guns I hope? Maybe I'm going to
become a helicopter parent, but there are hot glue guns I'd want my
kindergartener handling, and hot glue guns I wouldn't. Like the difference
between a 15w hobby soldering iron, and a 260w heavy duty soldering iron! :)

~~~
gumby
> Age-appropriate hammers, nails, and hot glue guns I hope?

What's age-appropriate? The nails were too big to swallow and the hot glue
guns the kind they sell at CVS. The kids cut and poked themselves and learned
to be careful.

At summer camp when he was 8 he learned to weld, braise and solder. 12 kids
aged 8-10, one instructor. I saw a photo one parent took: instructor helping
kid hammer something on an anvil; behind his back a couple of kids kneeling
and welding.

Another story I love: when he was 12, my son and his friends found bottle of
vodka in the schoolyard. Being 12 year old boys they did the obvious: filled
on of the kids' sneakers with the vodka and set fire to it in the schoolyard.
Apparently the math teacher walked by and called out "Boys! Class is in 5
minutes!"

~~~
farresito
> Another story I love: when he was 12, my son and his friends found bottle of
> vodka in the schoolyard. Being 12 year old boys they did the obvious: filled
> on of the kids' sneakers with the vodka and set fire to it in the
> schoolyard. Apparently the math teacher walked by and called out "Boys!
> Class is in 5 minutes!"

I thought the obvious would be that they drank it :D

~~~
stefs
for twelve year olds it just tastes foul.

~~~
wst_
Which is just another way to show your group how tough you are. By
consumption, unfortunately.

------
chrissnell
This is awesome.

When I was in second grade, my mom dropped us off for summer camp at a ranch
in South Texas. I remember crying and clinging onto her, trying to talk her
out of it but she left us anyway and I'm glad she did. We spent the next two
weeks riding horses and playing in a muddy swamp and doing leather crafts.
When she came back to pick us up, we probably cried twice as hard because we
didn't want to leave. The next summer, we stayed for three terms (six weeks).

I hope that this German idea takes root here and an anti-helicopter trend
starts in the US. I do everything to raise my two young sons (2 and 5 years)
in an environment where they're allowed to take risks but it's tough because
this attitude is shared by so few of their friends' parents, even here in
deeply red small-town Kansas.

EDIT: Just remembered about the sweet outdoor preschool on Vashon Island in
Washington State. Check this out: [https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-
news/outdoor-preschool-...](https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/outdoor-
preschool-takes-root-on-vashon-island/)

~~~
scottLobster
I have a feeling it will be a generational thing. It's anecdotal, but I grew
up with helicopter parents and have talked to many others who did as well,
I've yet to hear anyone speak positively about the experience. Mostly we all
got to adulthood and discovered how laughably unprepared we were for basic
life tasks. The more successful ones confront it in college and move on, the
less successful ones stay in college and promote "safe spaces" to prolong the
coddling.

~~~
spaceseaman
> the less successful ones stay in college and promote "safe spaces" to
> prolong the coddling.

This is not in any way what a safe space is - stop promoting this completely
inaccurate meme to further your own personal viewpoint. It has absolutely
nothing to do with being unprepared for "real-life" or some other such
nonsense. In fact I'm so confused why you would even bring up such a non-
related topic, you must have quite the talent for shifting conversations to
your favor.

"In educational institutions, safe space (or safe-space), safer space, and
positive space are terms that, as originally intended, were used to indicate
that a teacher, educational institution, or student body did not tolerate
anti-LGBT violence, harassment or hate speech, thereby creating a safe place
for all LGBT students."

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Safe-space](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Safe-
space)

(Just to be clear, I have no intention of derailing this thread into the
merits of safe spaces - this probably ain't the space. I just felt it was
necessary to call out.)

~~~
adrianratnapala
I have upvoted you to cancel the downvotes, since it is right that we see the
counter-view about safe-spaces.

But in case you are wondering about the downvotes, it is because you have done
the opposite of convince anyone. The tone of your comment seems like over-
reaction and is just going to confirm the priors of anyone who doesn't see
things your way.

~~~
spaceseaman
I was not attempting to convince anyone. The above poster claimed that safe
spaces were meant to "prolong the coddling" of childhood, yet this directly
contradicts the history of creation and specified intention of safe spaces.
There is no opinion and thus no "counter-view" to be had about what led to
their creation and their creators' intentions as those are facts.

Now one is free to have the opinion that safe spaces stifle discussion, or
prevent ideas from being addressed or some other such things - those are all
opinions and all views that can have their nuances. But safe spaces were never
created to prolong some sense of childhood comfort or safety - like I said,
that idea is just a popular meme of the alt-right.

------
geff82
Don‘t forget many German parents still engage in helicopter parenting, too.
But it is frowned upon by the majority. I for one, as a 6 year old in 1989,
was allowed to travel by bike to the next village alone or with friends. I was
buying bread at the bakery (about 1km away) and the way home from school as a
first grader sometimes took an hour because we were playing at a small river
nearby. All without phones. Luckily, I still see really small children walk to
school without parents evry day.

~~~
marenkay
"Still" might be the wrong word here. Helicopter parenting is more an issue
for the post 2000 years and was never this extreme before.

Considering public transportation, good infrastructure to schools or
kindergartens was not really available in the 1980s in many German cities.

E.g. my school was a 6km walk with no busses or trains going there and cars
not being a thing affordable by the working class. Nobody batted an eye back
then.

Today parents drive their kids to school for 1km. That's just wrong.

~~~
chefkoch
> cars not being a thing affordable by the working class

Are you shure you're not talking about the 50s but the 80s?

~~~
walshemj
Maybe they are refering to the east

~~~
eru
In the East it wasn't about affordability in price, but about rationing. You
had to wait 18 years for a new car at the end.

------
Noos
What's annoying is that as someone who did have a rather free-range childhood,
people don't get that there actually were good reasons for people to be
helicopter. You let the kids go off and play with others for hours alone,
right; but then you find out later that while they did, an older teen was
molesting them, or introducing them to porn. You let your kids play and
roughhouse, cool; but back then you'd often have your kid chip a tooth or bust
their collarbone, or they'd be blacking each others eyes or fighting after
school. You'd give them the freedom to be alone, and then they'd be in front
of you with the cops by them, because they were throwing rocks at windows.

People need to stop knee-jerk reacting to things and understand trends often
happen in context to previous happenings. The helicopter movement arose after
we realized in the 70s and 80s that free-range childhood often led to some
really dangerous things happening to kids, that unsupervised time actually
helped cover up things like sexual abuse or violence. It isn't just millenials
being millenial or something.

~~~
jacobolus
Do you have a reference about changes in the amount of molestation, busted
collarbones, after-school fights, or porn viewing happening to kids now vs. 40
years ago?

Even if there are such changes, it seems unclear to me that they can be
attributed to kids playing outside unsupervised.

But my understanding is that most child molestation is by trusted adults known
to the family (or family members), most kids nowadays (certainly by age 12 or
14) have plenty of access to porn (probably much easier than in the past),
kids still fight during and after school, and injury rates aren’t especially
changed. I could be wrong about though, I haven’t looked up precise figures.

Just making up a list of scary sounding hypothetical situations and anecdotes
isn’t the best way to judge risk.

The biggest causes of death for children in the US are cancer, car collisions,
drowning, gun homicides, and suicide. If we want to make life safer for
children we should be focusing on reducing car use and using traffic
engineering to slow cars down (ideally <20 miles/hour) in populated areas, pay
more attention to home swimming pools, get rid of guns to the extent possible,
and figure out what in the society is making teenagers so unhappy they would
want to kill themselves (maybe has something to do with their lack of
autonomy).

~~~
Noos
I don't think anyone really collected that data to compare. I know most of
those happened to me, when I was unsupervised, and others I knew. It would
make a good project for an academic to collate the data through interviews.

------
jpalomaki
Came across a slightly related article earlier today when searching about
other stuff: [https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2014/04/hey-
par...](https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2014/04/hey-parents-
leave-those-kids-alone/358631/)

A bit too long, but it's making a point of the importance for the "unsafe"
plays that modern kids are denied. It claims this is leading to drop in
creativity and can lead to increase with mental problems.

------
icebraining
Sounds similar to the Scouts. In my country I don't think they accept 4-year-
olds, but from 6 they do go camping for a few days without their parents. And
at least until four years ago, cellphones were not allowed.

~~~
Fnoord
Scouting in The Netherlands includes this, Jong Nederland (Catholic Dutch
Youth movement) as well [1]. Source: my anecdotal experience in 90s plus [1]
(Dutch entry). Don't remember cellphone policies. It was the 90s...

[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jong_Nederland](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jong_Nederland)

------
kmfrk
As a European, one of the most annoying tropes in US media is the
"orientalism" laissez-faire European parenting; one day we will harness it
into a source of perpetual energy.

~~~
dang
That's quite interesting. What we repeatedly see in others is an image of
ourselves, usually inverted or passed through some transform, but still an
image of us. The other doesn't feel seen by this, because they aren't.

Sometimes the other accepts this mirror role because it fits with an image
_they_ have of themselves and the other (i.e. you). Then you get an agreement.
But it is an agreement of two distortions that happen to be compatible.

------
secabeen
These do exist in the US. There's a good list here, although it includes some
schools that aren't fully outdoor: [https://mamookids.com/blogs/journal/the-
ultimate-guide-to-fo...](https://mamookids.com/blogs/journal/the-ultimate-
guide-to-forest-nature-schools-in-the-us)

My girls had a great experience at their forest school. I would recommend it
for many kids (but not all, of course)

------
adrianratnapala
Can't read the post, because of the paywall, but I have witnessed (almost?)
exactly this thing.

Once, when I lived in Germany, a self-inflicted SNAFU had me receiving
hospitality from my neighbours, whose young daughter was camped on the living
room floor, because she had not been allowed to go to her school's campout.
The poor child even got evicted from there, because of me.

On the one hand I thought the parents were being a bit "helicopter". But it
also seemed very natural to me. As a South Asian, I find this this is just the
way parents usually behave, and always have. And indeed one of the parents in
this case was also Asian (though not South Asian).

------
matt_the_bass
One big issue for the US would be where to find kindergarten teachers that
can/would want to do this as part of their job.

~~~
ricardobeat
Why would that be? I bet this is the dream environment for a lot of educators.
Are you thinking of stric job roles, safety rules etc?

~~~
thesumofall
Someone I know used to work in one of those places and wasn’t overly happy.
It’s a lot of standing around in the cold, there are a lot more risks you have
to watch out for, and some kids simply don’t get it and are quickly bored

~~~
Kluny
There are plenty of people who wouldn't mind doing that at all, and plenty
more who could get used to it for the right wage.

------
Zak
This article is paywalled.

I'm not sure what the appropriate response is to that on HN. I'd probably
downvote if I could downvote submissions, but flagging seems unduly harsh.

I found a Chrome extension to bypass the paywall:
[https://github.com/njuljsong/wsjUnblock](https://github.com/njuljsong/wsjUnblock)

~~~
mtmail
The
[https://news.ycombinator.com/newsfaq.html](https://news.ycombinator.com/newsfaq.html)
says pay-walled articles are fine.

~~~
ricardobeat
I wish HN took a stronger stance on this. It is extremely annoying to get
around paywalls on mobile / tablet, where I do 90% of my reading, and you
never know before you click.

~~~
grzm
HN does make the submission source visible, so you can check that before you
click. If it's a source you're not familiar with, you might still hit a
paywall unexpectedly, but wsj.com (and others, like the Washington Post) come
up frequently enough that you generally know before you click through.

~~~
petre
Just flag it as paywalled. So I don't hit a paywall "unexpectedly". I'd rather
not bother clicking at all.

~~~
dang
(Edit: I think I misread what you meant by 'flagging', since on HN that word
means a user clicking a "flag" link to report that a submission is bad for
HN.)

If you flag stories for that reason you'll eventually lose your flagging
rights. HN's policy is: paywalls with workarounds are ok, users can supply
workarounds in the threads, but complaints about paywalls and paywall policies
are off topic.

The paywalls suck, of course, but banning NYT, WSJ, Economist, New Yorker, and
all other such publications would suck worse. I realize not everyone agrees
with this, but it seems the right call to me, which doesn't mean I like it any
more than you do.

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10178989](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10178989)

[https://news.ycombinator.com/newsfaq.html](https://news.ycombinator.com/newsfaq.html)

Lots more at
[https://hn.algolia.com/?query=by:dang%20paywalls&sort=byDate...](https://hn.algolia.com/?query=by:dang%20paywalls&sort=byDate&prefix=false&page=0&dateRange=all&type=comment)
if anyone wants to read it.

~~~
grzm
Your parent may be recommending tagging such articles with [paywall] or some
such as opposed to clicking “flag”. It certainly could be worded better. I’d
rather not see titles further cluttered, personally. The source already
effectively provides that, and additional context.

~~~
dang
On a closer reading I think you're right. Edited above. Thanks!

------
caminante
Please append (2015) to headline.

~~~
dang
Missed that one! Added now, thanks.

------
nsnick
Please stop posting paywalled links

~~~
dang
Please see
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15947417](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15947417).
Workarounds have been posted upthread.

