
Amazon wins ‘.amazon’ domain name, aggravating South American region - thg
https://theconversation.com/amazon-wins-amazon-domain-name-aggravating-south-american-region-and-undermining-digital-commons-118186
======
souterrain
I continue to be against this and similar transactions as it is antithetical
to the hierarchical design of DNS.

We are approaching a model akin to AOL keywords. Instead of a business
directly controlling the namespace, we have a quasi-public institution that
likely will continue to act at the behest of corporate interests.

For those who say the ship has sailed: I say this is only another chipping
away at the democratic nature of the net. We must push back, or the beatings
will continue.

~~~
avar
When has DNS ever been democratic? Since day one e.g. the .GOV and .EDU TLDs
have been used only for educational institutions in the US, whose portion of
the word population is on the order of 5%.

There's surely a lot of sucky things about the new arrangement where big
companies can buy TLDs, but it's much more democratic for the rest of the 95%
of humanity than when the US had de-facto control of the system. Just look at
how many new TLDs are e.g. owned by Chinese companies.

~~~
jjtheblunt
To be historical, the US had this system running inside the US for a very long
time before it was deployed worldwide.

It's a quirk of a home grown system having outgrown its original purpose.

~~~
scythe
The requirement for .edu domains to be US-based was added in 2001.

~~~
souterrain
I hadn’t realized this. So, we can pack .edu full of for-profit degree mills,
but myriad respectable research universities the world over are forbidden.
Mind boggling.

------
vitorgrs
I'm Brazilian, and I'm not sure .amazon would be useful for us. Here, we don't
call Amazon rainforest, well, amazon. We call "Amazônia" and in Spanish
"Amazonia".

I don't see how Brazil or Peru would use .amazon for public interests, unless
it's targeted for international purposes (read: tourism).

But let's be honest, the "protection and awareness" is needed here on South
America, where they are destroying it.

~~~
fiblye
A lot of country top levels aren't based on the local language's name, but the
English one.

For example, Zhongguo, the country sometimes known as China, uses .cn instead
of .zg.

And yeah, regarding tourism, most people traveling there from outside of
Brazil will probably be searching for the English name. I can see why they'd
prefer .amazon for that purpose, even if the uses are limited.

But then again, how many domains does Amazon (the company) really need?

~~~
kijeda
Zhongguo also has .中国 and .中國 as top-level domains which would presumably be
more intelligible to Chinese speakers.

~~~
fiblye
That is true, but non-ascii TLDs are also relatively recent.

~~~
eridius
I didn't realize there even were non-ascii TLDs. I thought non-ascii domain
name components were restricted to everything but the TLD.

~~~
dehrmann
Domain names are ascii; there's just an encoding for unicode:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punycode](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punycode)

~~~
eridius
Right, but those weren't originally allowed for TLDs. It looks like
internationalized ccTLDs were finally approved in 2009.

------
cf498
>The company had previously proposed providing USD$5,000,000 worth of Amazon
products and services as compensation to the states, but this offer was not
included in the latest proposal.

Thats rather close to being comedic. 5m in Amazon gift cards.

~~~
ErikAugust
"But this offer was not included in the latest proposal" is also brutal.

~~~
henvic
As a Brazilian, I'm pretty happy with this.

1\. Corrupt states haven't gained control over an important TLD.

2\. Corrupt states aren't getting gift cards that would be used for making the
lives of corrupt officials better.

3\. Corrupt states trying to surf in Amazon.com's success lost.

~~~
JetSpiegel
Corrupt Corporate Executives won over Corrupt Governments. Should we celebrate
this?

The corrupt governments can lose elections, but Bezos is a tyrant for life.

~~~
henvic
Is this a joke? If you disagree with Amazon (that is doing nothing corrupt in
this matter) just stop using it and you're good.

Good luck getting rid of your corrupt government, if you live in the middle of
the forest.

Bezos is no tyrant. He is where he is because he satisfied people who
willingly made his company a lot of money.

You can vote to put Bezos out of business by stopping to use his services.

Good luck voting once every four years to get rid of corrupt government
officials. Good luck believing elections aren't arranged (especially if you
live in the middle of the jungle in a highly violent place).

Let's stop drinking the Kool-Aid... shall we?

~~~
JetSpiegel
> You can vote to put Bezos out of business by stopping to use his services.

He already has more money than almost anyone else, it's not like he needs my
scraps.

As the stock classes shenanigans show, it's easier to overthrow a government
that to remove a rogue CEO with preferred voting stocks.

------
thg
Full article title is _Amazon wins ‘.amazon’ domain name, aggravating South
American region and undermining digital commons_

I had to cut it down as it wouldn't fit otherwise (26 too long).

------
legohead
Lots of angry people in here which I am a bit surprised at.

Have you all forgotten what it was like before all these new TLDs became
available? You couldn't find a decent domain due to squatters. This affected
everyone from the layman to startups.

What is the _entire region_ of the geographical Amazon going to do with a
whole TLD? How is that going to possibly improve their situation? With this
new TLD expansion, they have _so many more_ options to work with now:
Amazon.whatever.

If they really cared about TLDs so much, why not get .forest? .amazonia?

~~~
deelly
>> What is the entire region of the geographical Amazon going to do with a
whole TLD?

'Therefore we decide, that you don't need whole TLD. This company (whoa, with
money!) will use it better'

~~~
solidasparagus
How would you like it to be decided? I'm not going to say I love the slow
ICANN process, but it was designed to allow all stakeholders to have their say
while trying to prevent endless deadlock. This application has been in the
works for 7 years. There have been many appeals of various kinds. The process
is, as far as I can tell, extremely transparent.

At the core of the debate is whether Amazon is a brand or a location. It's
clearly both. Then the question is how to structure the shared governance of
the TLD.

According to the Amazon.com proposal email [1], ACTO is objecting to the
current proposal. Several ACTO member states have submitted proposals
individually, but there is no joint proposal (according to the email from
Amazon.com). I couldn't find any ACTO joint proposal - they only seem to agree
on blocking or delaying Amazon.com's proposal [2][3][4]. ICANN has a
responsibility to make a decision at some point.

Call me crazy, but I have very low confidence in ACTO's ability to run the TLD
given that seven years into this process, we don't have a joint ACTO proposal

[1]
[https://www.icann.org/en/system/files/correspondence/huseman...](https://www.icann.org/en/system/files/correspondence/huseman-
to-chalaby-17apr19-en.pdf)

[2] [https://www.icann.org/resources/board-
material/resolutions-2...](https://www.icann.org/resources/board-
material/resolutions-2019-05-15-en#1.c)

[3]
[https://www.icann.org/en/system/files/correspondence/mendoza...](https://www.icann.org/en/system/files/correspondence/mendoza-
to-chalaby-marby-05nov18-en.pdf)

[4] [https://www.icann.org/en/system/files/correspondence/mena-
to...](https://www.icann.org/en/system/files/correspondence/mena-to-
ismail-05mar19-en.pdf)

~~~
inetknght
Tell me, what's the worst that could happen?

If you can't trust the TLD then just block *.amazon from your system services.

------
whymauri
Did Amazon (the company) really need this? I don't get it. It feels like
bullying for no real purpose.

~~~
booleandilemma
If only to prevent someone from creating a site with the name
_dontshopat.amazon_ , _fuck.amazon_ , _betterthan.amazon_ , etc.

It could be a defensive thing.

~~~
lozenge
They would have been able to object to ICANN when the other application for
.amazon was put in.

------
kerkeslager
This is awful, but I'm much more angry that they own the .book TLD.

~~~
drusepth
Yeah! They're depriving it from Facebook!

~~~
kerkeslager
Or, you know, the IFLA[1] or some organization which at least makes a passable
pretense of have the best interests of people in mind.

[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Federation_of_Li...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Federation_of_Library_Associations_and_Institutions)

------
throwaway8879
Somewhat tangential, but how many internet users(except us old-timers) really
make use of domain names in their use/workflow these days?

I wonder if there's some research on this. I'd assume that most of the
internet population have their smartphones/app ecosystems for getting to
Amazon or even looking up hypothetical Brazilian tourist info through Google.

I understand why both sides want the TLD but I'm not sure what significant
usefulness it has other than property rights regarding domain names and the
future of how these cases will be settled.

~~~
pergadad
More clear to write " go to brazil.amazon" than "please Google 'Brazil Amazon
official tourism board"

~~~
justaaron
The Amazon and its tributaries flow through the countries of Peru, Bolivia,
Venezuela, Colombia, Ecuador, and Brazil before emptying into the Atlantic
Ocean 6, 437 kilometers (4,000 miles) from the Amazon's headwaters high in the
Andes mountains of Peru.

So, no it's not the exclusive property of Brazil.

~~~
seszett
Having it as a tld makes it clear, since you could easily have brazil.amazon,
bolivia.amazon, peru.amazon, etc. That's more hierarchically correct than
amazon.com.br, amazon.bo, amazon.pe.

For most people though I don't think it makes a difference, as I don't think
DNS hierarchy is well understood by most internet users.

~~~
newphonewhodis
I get what you are saying, however, Brazil(br) "hosts"-has it in- The Amazon;
as do the other countries. I would expect a resolver to go to a top level
namespace- i.e. a country that has people to run the infrastructure and not a
river- and all those places scope out certain features contained with in them.

In my mind: .(root server) > (global feature/country/company) > (feature/host)
e.g.

. > .br > amazon

makes more sense than

. > amazon > ccTLD.

I think a better example for your point would be `.ocean` as the logical way
to divided it would be pacific.ocean, atlantic.ocean, etc. however no one
entity "owns" the whole or said parts of the ocean and dolphins do not want to
administer DNS servers. That said, naming things is hard.

------
fwip
Alternate title: Corporation wins '.amazon' domain name, aggravating the
Amazon.

------
marvindanig
Amazon did the same thing to the '.book' top level domain name. Like they own
the business vertical of books for the world now.

IMO it is critical to split the company and take away these public properties
from them.

~~~
whoisthisfor
Who ever owns .wedding owns the business vertical for weddings? This just
doesn't add up. There might be good reasons to split Amazon up, but this isn't
one of them.

~~~
SiempreViernes
No, the argument is that Amazon is not the only organisation with a rightful
interest in the ".book" top level domain and so should not have been granted
exclusive control over it.

I guess the second argument is that the arrogance displayed in saying things
like "no, there shouldn't be any commons on the internet" (which is what
closing such a generic tld does) is evidence that they have grown beyond what
is healthy for society.

------
franzwong
Amazon can rent the domain name from the governments of South America.

~~~
dodobirdlord
If that would be the end result of the domain being awarded to the governments
then the domain should be awarded to Amazon.

------
Bedon292
The article states that the rules changed in 2011 that allowed Amazon to
purchase the domain. Which they attempted to do in 2012. At what point in time
would the Amazon region have been able to purchase it? Having a hard time
looking up what the rules might have been, but I would think they could have
gotten it issued before then, under old rules could they not have? Seems like
there wasn't interest in the domain until someone else proposed it, or were
they also working on it too?

------
dvh
Shouldn't that domain name go to Greece?

~~~
rgoulter
Nah.

But that reminds me of the SMBC comic from 2012 (when SOPA was being
discussed), about how India invented the number zero and so by ad absurdum of
'IP belongs to content creators', "owns" half of all digital data.
[https://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/2012-08-29](https://www.smbc-
comics.com/comic/2012-08-29)

~~~
gingabriska
Maybe zero the figure was invented in India but the notion of zero was known
before that without putting a name for it.

------
geofffox
The first computer graphics program I used in the early 80s on Cromemco
hardware running their "ix" flavor os was called Amazon.

------
TazeTSchnitzel
I kinda wish the Amazon region companies would band together to block the
domain nationally, but I guess that won't happen.

------
i_am_shattered
Is there a chance of getting the following chances now? www.shopping.amazon,
www.webservices.amazon etc.?

~~~
marvin-83
Probably aws.amazon rather than webservices. They've invested a lot of time
branding the acronym AWS, I don't see them rolling that back now.

As for whether they make those the new generic addresses... I'm not sure. I
think they are more likely to use the new tld for internal dns and keep their
existing public names.

------
SomeOldThrow
If they can get .amazon, it stands to reason we all deserve our own TLD. I’m
actually for this.

~~~
pwodhouse
It's called a gTLD and anyone can apply for one.

~~~
SomeOldThrow
But only the rich can pull strings and get their own? Sort of like the “public
comment” part of city planning: there to distract from a committee stacked
with real estate developers.

~~~
vntok
It's not a question of pulling strings, it's a question of being able and
willing to maintain a complex piece of software and hardware after you get the
terminaison.

~~~
SomeOldThrow
Sounds like capital to me.

~~~
nightwing
Do you suggest someone else should pay for you to maintain the hardware for
your tld? If enough people are interested in your tld, you already will get
the capital to maintain it, if not, what's the point of having it?

------
justaaron
The company representing that which is destroying the river-basins ecosystem.
(unfettered capitalism with-regards-to what are effectively planetary lungs.)

200,000 acres of Amazonian rainforest are burned every day circa 2019, but
hey: next day delivery, frappucinos, netflix, and my comfort zone...

~~~
geezerjay
> The company representing that which is destroying the river-basins
> ecosystem.

If any organization represents the destruction of Amazon's river basin
ecosystem, those organizations are exclusively the state institutions of the 9
countries that cover that area. They are the sole responsible entities that
decide which activities are and are not allowed, and how to enforce their
rules to punish those who break them.

~~~
paulryanrogers
Technically true, though the history of corporations like United Fruit and
East India Company suggest those governments do not operate in a vacuum.

------
Myrmornis
[https://icannwiki.org/ICANN_Board](https://icannwiki.org/ICANN_Board)

Note that they have one Mexican, one El Salvadorean, but no South Americans.
Also note that the only African is a Tunisian ex-Google employee. And the only
east or south-east Asian appears to be Japanese. Why are we letting this group
of business people make decisions about global internet? Why not, for example,
scientists from the different countries?

~~~
geezerjay
> Why are we letting this group of business people make decisions about global
> internet?

Whether you like it or not, those "global businesses" do have an internet
presence that's unquestionably more extensive than some countries. It would
not be fair if organizations or countries that clearly are not interested in
having a say on any issue regarding the global internet would have more of a
say in these issues than those whose livelihood is the internet.

~~~
paulryanrogers
Hopefully the Internet is more than just about jobs and business.

FWIW, it's said that .int (international) never gained momentum for these
globe-spanning organisations.

~~~
growtofill
What’s wrong with .com/.net/.org?

~~~
pwodhouse
IIRC Those are governed by the US; they aren't truly international

~~~
growtofill
Valid point, thank you. I wonder who would govern a truly international TLD
then. UN? New body?

------
rendall
This is pretty astonishing.

Clearly, _.amazon_ was intended to refer to the geographical region, given
that no other corporations have their name as a top-level domain.

~~~
tialaramex
If you have a million dollars a year (rough estimate) burning a hole in your
pocket, you too can own a TLD under a liberalized ICANN policy that has
existed for many years now. Amazon was only different because there was a
conflict about who should own it.

Some of the new TLDs created are actually useful, Russia got a TLD for the IDN
value that native Russians would recognise more easily than .ru -- .рф and
it's been pretty successful for locals.

Some of them were land grab attempts, people see .com makes a lot of money and
imagine that some of that could be theirs, but alas mostly they're wrong.
.horse, .aero, .london and so on. Their only value to the wider community is
that they allow jokes like [http://my.lovely.horse/](http://my.lovely.horse/)
or
[http://ibless.therains.downin.africa/](http://ibless.therains.downin.africa/)

A few of them are straight up vanity, but whereas your vanity domain might be
costing you $25 pa from an expensive vendor with a crappy web site thrown in,
operators of TLDs are spending many orders of magnitude more to obey rules

.kerrylogistics .kerryproperties and .kerryhotels all exist for example, and
obviously those are completely useless, anybody looking for those outfits will
either Google or knows their much shorter "real" domain name - but I guess
probably they get a bulk deal on some of the technology needed, maybe the
whole lot costs them only $2M per year to maintain.

~~~
sirn
IDN ccTLD (country code) is not the same as new gTLD, although new gTLD may
also be IDN. IDN ccTLD are usually granted to the existing operator of the
ccTLD and is a completely different process than sponsored TLD (usually
involving government to support the delegation). ccTLD operator may choose to
make it available for public use or not once it's granted e.g. Japan's JPRS
has both .jp and .日本 (but .日本 is not available to public)

