
Chicago Police Dept. Plagued by Systemic Racism, Task Force Finds - Nelkins
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/04/14/us/chicago-police-dept-plagued-by-systemic-racism-task-force-finds.html
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hackuser
It's sad to see people trying to rationalize denial or obstruction of this
issue, for example by throwing up endless questions using words like
"correlation". You can always ask more questions but that really doesn't
contribute, it only obstructs. I've never seen a serious assessment that
doubts the general idea, that there is racism in law enforcement.

~~~
cb18
_I 've never seen a serious assessment that doubts the general idea, that
there is racism in law enforcement._

This is likely the result of what is known as the "filter bubble."

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Filter_bubble](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Filter_bubble)

Police are in fact less likely to kill blacks than whites. Perhaps in absolute
terms, but definitely when you factor in the varying behavior patterns of the
two groups.

 _But also adjusted to take into account the racial breakdown in violent
crime, the data actually show that police are less likely to kill black
suspects than white ones.

"If one adjusts for the racial disparity in the homicide rate or the rate at
which police are feloniously killed, whites are actually more likely to be
killed by police than blacks," wrote Moskos. "Adjusted for the homicide rate,
whites are 1.7 times more likely than blacks (to) die at the hands of police.
Adjusted for the racial disparity at which police are feloniously killed,
whites are 1.3 times more likely than blacks to die at the hands of police."_

[http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2015/09/10/black_l...](http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2015/09/10/black_lives_matter_getting_blacks_killed_128039.html)

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=piwaBO6U43U](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=piwaBO6U43U)

~~~
hackuser
> This is likely the result of what is known as the "filter bubble."

Probably it's not useful to say things you have no idea about, such as to
speculate on the experiences of people you don't know at all, such as me.

The details of course will be complex, but one study on one statistic (by an
associate professor at CUNY reported on a partisan political site) doesn't
challenge the phenomenon of racial discrimination by law enforcement and in
our justice system, both of which are very well documeented.

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hackuser
Why now and why in Chicago are political institutions saying these things?
Most people have known about theses problems all over the country and for
decades. I watched a the history of the issue and the same issues were being
examined one commission after another going back, IIRC, to the 1920s. The
report says the problems have gone on for decades.

My guess is that it is due to political pressure. IMHO most corruption and
injustice happens because there is no pressure on political leaders to fix it,
while they face a lot of pressure from vested interests (the police,
prosecutors, etc.). On most issues, the public pays no attention and if they
do, it's only for a short time. As they say, 'all that is needed for evil to
succeed is for good people to do nothing'.

But still, why now and why in Chicago would this kind of political pressure
finally arise?

(And it remains to be seen if anything changes, which I would guess depends on
whether the pressure can be sustained.)

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dragonwriter
It's not just in Chicago; in fact, the pressure on Chicago comes in part from
the Federal investigations recently elsewhere in the country.

~~~
hackuser
What other governmental institutions have released reports like this one?

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dragonwriter
Externally, there have been several federal investigations of.local agencies
(notably, Ferguson, which also came with an enforcement effort resulting in a
consent decree); that's actually probably a big part of the reason for Chicago
to do, and be seen doing, it's own internal effort.

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capote
Major edit: I was wrong. I've read parts of the report quoted around other
places on the internet and now see that it does in fact give large
substantiation to arguments of police being racists. Primarily the statistics
having to do with situations that do not involve an arrest because of no
wrongdoing found are really irritating.

~~~
hackuser
> the "report" does not give validation to this

Are you talking about the report (have you read it?) or just the newspaper
article?

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capote
I haven't read the report. But what can the report possibly say that will
survive the "black people commit disproportionately more crime" argument? This
is the argument we need to figure out how to combat. No cop is ever going to
admit he did something because he's a racist, and that's really the only way
to find out if one is racist or not; isn't it?

~~~
hackuser
> what can the report possibly say that proves there is racism?

Systematic racism isn't a novel idea that has been impossible to substantiate,
but a widespread, well-documented phenomenon in many different circumstances.
Was there systematic racism when blacks weren't allowed in many restaurants
and hotels? What if all black prisoners are treated one way and whites
another?

EDIT: I think my response addresses your updated comment.

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hnamazon123
This is racism iff in fact blacks in Chicago don't disproportionally commit
the type of crimes/infractions that they are arrested for.

~~~
jbondeson
_" Black people were targeted in 72 percent of thousands of investigative
street stops that did not lead to arrests during a recent summer."_

If that's not racial profiling, I don't know what is.

~~~
cb18
What is the percentage breakdown by race in the _arrests_ that these sweeps
produced?

What is the breakdown by race of the perpetrators of the crimes that these
sweeps are aimed at?

If blacks are the arrestees in greater than 72% of these sweeps that result in
arrests, would you say that blacks are being under-profiled?

~~~
hackuser
Lots of hypotheticals, but how about something real? What if the sun doesn't
rise tomorrow?

~~~
cb18
What are you talking about 'hypotheticals'?

I'm asking that data be consulted to test whether the assumptions and
assertions being made are accurate.

As to the rest of your comment, they're words, grammatically correct. But they
make zero sense, both in context of this discussion, and in the sequence
you've presented them.

The "sun rising" isn't real, it's an artifact of the rotation of the earth.

And the 'what if' of it not occurring isn't 'real' because all historical
evidence shows that your hypothetical of the sun 'not rising' on April 14,
2016 has virtually zero chance of occurring.

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chrisfromwork
The validity of anything headed by rahm Emmanuel in Chicago should really be
questioned. The same mayor who covered up the murder of an unarmed black male
during his reelection, is now leading a team to prove systemic racism in
Chicago. Where is the accountability for this guy. No one should be able to
champion both sides.

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nxzero
>> "Coincidentally, it was released as city leaders were installing a new,
permanent superintendent for the Chicago Police Department."

^^ Sounds like a stretch to believe that was coincidental.

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cb18
_tysonjennings,_

Your past 6 comments, going back 1167 days ago, are all marked [dead]

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ebfe
Have we ruled out the possibility that African-Americans disproportionately
engage in the actions we consider an acceptable reason for deadly force
(aiming a gun at, charging towards, etc. police officers)?

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michaelbuddy
Yet another claim of racism with the assumption that races and cultures behave
the same way. BLACKS commit MORE crime per capita than whites or asians. And
that's not just the United States. Check the prison populations in other
countries. And the criminals make it hard for the innocent to get the
presumption of innocence for even the most mundane situations. Many many many
examples come to mind.

What people want to call systemic racism are patterns revealing the best
truths that policeman can go by, which is experience of reality in their
domain. Yes there are bad cops, however there's one more thing you MUST
account for when you try to understand why blacks might be treated differently
than whites in neighborhods. Different cultures, different types of people
will respond differently to deterrents. So police may find that the harder
they are during encounters with some types of people means they keep the peace
better. And with others, a different approach is what makes more sense.

A big problem is people read this, they're gonna want citations or they'll
just say I'm being racist. Thing is, I don't take any kind of pleasure in
these facts. I find it pretty depressing. If you want citations, here's a
thought, go on about 3 or 4 ride-alongs with cops in areas of varied
populations. It will open your eyes. That's the way to know reality. Be there
in it.

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kyleblarson
And in other shocking news, the sun will rise in the East and set in the West
today.

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mindslight
Promises of ambiguous reform are simply the system placating and preserving
the status quo.

The fundamental problem isn't racism - it is the lack of justice in every
individual case. If police officers were actually held accountable for their
improper actions (civil and criminal liability for false imprisonment,
battery, lost time, etc), the racist thoughts of individual cops would not
matter as much.

~~~
hackuser
> Racism isn't the fundamental problem - it is the lack of justice in each
> individual case. If police officers were actually held accountable for their
> improper actions (civil and criminal liability for false imprisonment,
> battery, lost time, etc), the racism of individual cops would hardly matter
> as much.

This is not realistic; we can't monitor and hold accountable all police
actions. We can't even do it when there is widespread evidence of abuse.

Racism is the fundemetal cause of many of these problems; until that's dealt
with, they will just keep coming back.

~~~
mindslight
Your argument is similar to saying "We can't monitor and hold accountable all
people's actions."

Enforcement of _all_ crime is based on post-facto complaints. We just need to
stop giving cops a free pass to break the law, and stop the justice system
exporting its externalities onto innocent people in a weird reverse-lottery.

~~~
hackuser
> Your argument is similar to saying "We can't monitor and hold accountable
> all people's actions."

Do you disagree with that? Think of it like quality in engineering: We can't
do it effectively by detecting problems post-facto and fixing them (and in
engineering our ability to detect them is far greater than in human behavior);
quality must be built in.

We couldn't arrest our way out of the drug problem, we couldn't kill/capture
our way out of terrorism - these aren't solutions, but partial remediation of
failed policies. We need to address the root of problems.

~~~
mindslight
So, instead of arresting people for murder we should attempt to audit their
thoughts preemptively? That's the general problem they're pretending to
tackle.

I mean at some level, how can a cop be disqualified by having private racist
thoughts? They're even likely to pick up such thoughts from the job itself.

But then how do you determine whether those thoughts influenced a specific
action or not? This is the ultimate problem with _all_ attempts to police
thoughtcrime - you're effectively past the demarc point, with ambiguous
enforcement that just ends up eroding respect for the rule of law ("haha Joe
the idiot got written up by the racism inquisitor again").

You're essentially saying "we can't arrest our way out of the murder problem".
The Scandinavian approach of rehabilitation does make a lot of sense - the
sheer majority of murders are prevented via _societal values_. But the
ultimate check is still that criminals are arrested and punished. This
feedback loop has been _broken_ for police themselves, which has allowed their
culture to degrade into absolute shit.

~~~
AjithAntony
I like hackuser's analogy of "Building quality into the process" vs. playing
whack-a-bug.

I don't have any idea how to fix the process but here's some stories that we
can throw in the backlog:

    
    
       - As a homeless individual, I'd like stable shelter
       - As a low income individual, I'd like higher quality housing opportunities
       - As a mentally ill individual, I'd like support and treatment to manage my illness
       - As an unemployed individual, I'd like a job where I can earn enough income to support myself and family
       - As a member of a victimized population, I'd like my peers to refrain from perpetuating a cycle of violence among ourselves
       - As a parent with limited means, I'd like my child to attend a high quality school
       - As a working parent with limited means, I'd like quality child care
       - As an hourly wage-earner, I'd like consistent full time hours so I can better plan my schedule, finances, and future
       - As a working individual, I'd like affordable, reliable, and timely transportation options to travel between my home, work, and school

~~~
mindslight
It's a good analogy, but the general push for engineering quality comes from
larger feedback cycles (say root cause analysis, or even economics itself).
The "omg racists" take on this topic is hoping that checking the schematics
more will guarantee a good outcome.

FWIW user stories inherently passivize the user. The thinking that makes sense
for a singularly-designed product most likely does _not_ work for decentrally-
emergent society.

