
Last satellite in the Indian Regional Navigation Satellite System launched - subhashp
http://www.newindianexpress.com/nation/2018/apr/13/india-now-proud-owner-of-indigenous-navigation-satellite-system-1800948.html
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nautical
Reason to start working on the system as per the article :

"It is a culmination of 17 years of rigorous work by Indian space scientists.
India took a firm decision on IRNSS in 1999 after the US government refused to
share GPS data that would provide vital information on Pakistani troops
position during Kargil war. As in the previous launches of the IRNSS
satellites, PSLV-C41 has also used ‘XL’ version of PSLV equipped with six
strap-ons, each carrying 12 tonnes of propellant."

~~~
andyjohnson0
I didn't understand this. How would the GPS system allow the US to know the
location of Pakistani soldiers? GPS satellites only transmit and GPS receivers
only receive - there is no return path that would disclose the location. What
am I missing?

~~~
michaelt
As far as I can tell, all the online reports have been written 15+ years after
the fact, and they all just quote one another; I suspect the journalists may
be mistaken.

It's worth bearing in mind the Kargil War took place in 1999, and GPS
Selective Availability wasn't turned off until May 2000. It might be that
India asked for the SA seed key so their own forces/missiles could navigate
more accurately, but were denied?

~~~
chiph
IIRC, with SA on, accuracy was to within 100 meters. And that's enough for
troop movements but not accurate enough for missiles and artillery. So using
it for land navigation would have been fine. It's sounding like it was a case
of "We want it because we want it"

~~~
rdsubhas
Kargil is one of the highest battlefields on Earth. I don't think I'd compare
Himalayan warfare to "land navigation".

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kargil_War](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kargil_War)

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mountain_warfare#Kashmir_confl...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mountain_warfare#Kashmir_conflicts)

> The most dangerous and volatile of all mountain conflicts involves the
> ongoing one between India and Pakistan over the Kashmir region.

~~~
chiph
It's a generic term meaning "How do I get my troops from here to there" either
by vehicle or marching, such that they don't get lost and arrive when needed.

This is the classic way with map + compass. GPS just makes it easier.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xSNohNPqWlU](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xSNohNPqWlU)

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vardump
So my phone can use these satellite navigation systems: U.S. GPS, Russian
GLONASS, European Galileo, Chinese BeiDou and Japanese QZSS.

I guess one more doesn't hurt, huh?

It's curious how major powers all want to have their own satellite navigation
systems.

Edit: QZSS is a regional system, and not due to start until November 2018, yet
my phone detected one of those satellites earlier about 2-3 weeks ago.
Interesting, especially considering I'm nowhere near Japan. Unless, of course,
it was a bug or some weird error case. Or maybe QZSS was doing some early
testing?

~~~
azernik
These are essential national security assets, used for military purposes, and
which a hostile (or even neutral) owner could turn off in case of war. The
civilian use-case is a handy side benefit.

~~~
andygates
_Was_ a handy side-benefit, then GPS got so cheap and ubiquitous people tag
their dogs and hire bikes. Now, location services are an essential civilian
service.

~~~
heneryville
A number of devices are theorized to use GPS for cryptographic randomness,
such as ATMs. In 2007 the US navy accidentally jammed San Diego's GPS signal,
but the effect wasn't too huge.

[https://fieldlogix.com/news/navy-accidentally-jammed-gps-
sys...](https://fieldlogix.com/news/navy-accidentally-jammed-gps-system-in-
san-diego/)

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msravi
Curious. Do missile systems also lose track of their position midway through a
flight like our phones? Are the receivers radically better than the ones in
our phones? What happens if a missile loses its coordinates because of a bad
signal? Does it just continue and keep track of its position based on the last
known position or does it abort? If it cannot lock on to a GPS signal at the
start of its flight, does it fail to take off?

~~~
djsumdog
Missile have their own very complex on-board guidance systems that don't
require GPS at all. Newer missiles might use GPS as an extra layer of
calibration, but I doubt they rely on it and most likely discard it if it's
way off (otherwise GPS interference could potentially jam a missile).

~~~
rainbowmverse
There's a wiki on the various ways to guide a missile:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Missile_guidance](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Missile_guidance)

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lifeisstillgood
This is both amazing and sad. Amazing because its the emergence of (yet
another) a space power, and amazing because it gives the world more and
presumably healthy competition for a globally useful technology.

Sad because "we built, planned, funded and launched this awesome technology
because ... war"

Humans. What a species.

~~~
igravious
Technology tends to be value-neutral. The application of technology could be
for evil or for good. To claim that the primary purpose of the Indian Regional
Navigation Satellite System (NAVIC) is for belligerent activities is to claim
knowledge of the intentions of the Indian government at the time of the
system's creation.

Couldn't it be just as likely or more likely that multiple positive and
negative rationales were in play at the time?

    
    
      - reduced dependency on the US
      - chance to learn something for oneself
      - give boost to the Indian aerospace fields
      - home-grown navigational abilities for war but also for civilian use
      - pride, wanting to be seen as a global tech leader
      - any other number of things?
    

I think it is amazing that we now have not one (US) but five (US, EU, CN, IN,
RU) navigational satellite systems, two of which (US, RU) are globally
operational and two more will be (EU, CN) by 2020. What interesting times we
live in.

~~~
calcifer
> To claim that the primary purpose of the Indian Regional Navigation
> Satellite System (NAVIC) is for belligerent activities is to claim knowledge
> of the intentions of the Indian government at the time of the system's
> creation.

Sounds like you didn't read the article:

> It is a culmination of 17 years of rigorous work by Indian space scientists.
> India took a firm decision on IRNSS in 1999 after the US government refused
> to share GPS data that would provide vital information on Pakistani troops
> position during Kargil war.

~~~
igravious
I did read the article. I'm not disagreeing that military matters motivated
India's decision. I'm merely arguing against the claim that it was their
_primary_ motivation. I'm certain it was a large/significant factor, I doubt
it was the only factor. There are so many other beneficial reasons to pursue
this tech, some of which I enumerated. Consider Galileo.

~~~
lifeisstillgood
It is of course hard to determine what is primary motivation for any large
decision. But imagine a scenario where the US GPS system was somehow banned
from military use. would it have been funded? I don't think so. And the same
can be said for India and China and Europe's versions. Somewhere in the
decision making is a desire to have this in case the bullets start flying -
and that motivation is (IMO) sufficiently large that without it, it's dubious
the decades long investments would have occurred.

No we cannot be certain, yes the peaceful benefits are many (cf US GPS) and it
is of course right and proper that India takes steps she sees as necessary for
her own defence.

But it is still a mixed emotion - optimism and sadness, joy and regret.

It's not an attack on the plans of nations to raise themselves up. It's just
sad that humans are so brilliant and so dumb at the same time

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s_dev
How does this compare to the Americans GPS? Is it as good or was it designed
with different constraints in mind?

~~~
rrrazdan
As good but works only in the Indian subcontinent and its neighbourhood.

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dingo_bat
Now I'm just waiting for GPS chip manufacturers to add support. Should
increase resolution for those in the subcontinent :)

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yaochao
yet China has Beidou navigation system

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Marc_Bryan
IMHO, it's pretty useless compared to the current government and country's
scenario. They better electrify the villages and provide better sanitation to
the people rather then spending millions on mars, moon missions to prove their
superiority! What a waste!

It may stop working in a year or two like any of their indigenous inventions!!

I'm not undermining any Indians, nor the way they work but as they are
governed is by far the worst considering the current and past situations.

No quality, no nothing.

