
An Alexa Holdout Wants to Know Who’s Listening - Cbasedlifeform
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/08/business/echo-alexa-amazon.html
======
thomastjeffery
If it was totally open-source, if I could easily make it run a different
binary, and if I could change the wake-word, it might become appealing.

Unfortunately, Alexa, Google Home/Assistant, Cortana, and Siri each fit none
of those requirements.

I hear Mozilla is working on a speech recognition library. That might be
workable.

It's crazy to me how much trust some people have in these systems. People on
the whole seem to have totally given up on the idea of digital privacy, and I
find that very concerning.

~~~
iamthirsty
It's the Privacy v. Convenience trade off. The conveniences are promoted, the
privacy implications shrugged off, and in the end you pay someone money to
invade your home 24 hours a day.

It's a simple but scary formula that doesn't make me optimistic for the
future.

~~~
unobtaniumstool
Ah yes, the terrifying privacy implications of Alexa. Now Google _and_ Amazon
know I check the weather every morning.

Oh, the dystopia.

~~~
mfrommil
They also know the argument between you and your partner, the private secret a
friend asked you to share with no one, when you're not going to be home, etc.
etc.

~~~
a_t48
Is there actual evidence of this? Tell me: do you also decline to have a cell
phone in your pocket?

~~~
thomastjeffery
I want actual evidence _of the contrary_.

With a closed-source platform, I can't have that.

I have a cell-phone in my pocket, and I _am_ concerned about the privacy
implications. Android _is_ free software, but the driver blobs are not. I do
hate that I am compromising for that. Hopefully, there will be more affordable
options like the librem phone in the near future.

------
ryandrake
I've stopped buying devices that require some nebulous "cloud connectivity" to
function. It's no longer an exchange of value that benefits me. My personal
data is valuable and I see no reason to just hand it over to companies for no
compensation. That's what you're doing when you use one of these cloud
connected devices. You're giving up real value to gain nebulous value. At
least that's how I see it--you might disagree and that's OK.

Particularly annoying are those devices that _should_ be able to function
without phoning home via an internet connection:

Security camera? Shouldn't need to phone home. Camera should turn on and
stream directly to my display device. There's no need to connect to the
mothership.

Thermostat? Shouldn't need to phone home. Device should let me control the
temperature of my home and respond when I command it remotely. No need to
connect to the mothership.

Media player? Shouldn't need to phone home. I have a library of files I'd like
to play and don't care for any online services. No need to connect to the
mothership.

I used to have a rule: If I don't have root on the device it goes on the guest
network (no internal network access, only Internet). I still have that rule,
but it's time to up the rule to "no internal or external network access
without root".

~~~
jhall1468
You are exchanging your data for convenience. Or in the case of Gmail, you are
exchanging your data for a service/product. In the case of your Safeway card,
you are exchanging your data for discounts, in the case of your credit cards
you are exchanging your data for a loan.

So no, you aren't "handing it over". You are being compensated in one fashion
or another. Maybe that's not a good enough trade for you, and that's totally
fine, but claiming there is no exchange of value is just nonsense.

~~~
imgabe
None of those are the examples OP was talking about. What value are you
getting by having the thermostat connect to Google's servers rather than
connecting to it directly? What do I get by letting Google see inside my house
with a security camera that I couldn't get by connecting to the camera
directly?

------
techsupporter
This is how my better half and I feel about these things. Not only is the idea
of having a likely-always-on microphone in our most private space unsettling,
the trade-off isn't even worth it for us. But, frankly, neither of us can
think of something that would be so Earth-moving as to warrant sticking some
perpetual ears all over the place.

I don't care if I go to a friend's house and he or she has an Alexa or Home or
what-have-you. Their house, their privacy, their rules. But we're keeping them
out of ours.

(Yes, both of us have disabled Siri and the utility of a mobile phone existing
and being indoors with us is higher than the seemingly unlikely trade-off of
Apple listening all of the time. "Unlikely" because that's not their business
model, so far as I can tell, while All Data Collection Everywhere Always does
seem to be the case for Google and Amazon.)

~~~
blacksmith_tb
But they aren't 'always listening' \- except for their wake words (yes, I know
it's technically possible they really do, and smuggle the data out along with
legit requests, but it seems unlikely). So for example the article's author
can rest easy if he listens to Barbra Streisand (on vinyl!), Alexa won't be
any wiser. Google and Amazon have somewhat different imperatives, Amazon would
like to figure how to sell us more things (happily placing orders via the Echo
is off by default) while Google would like to figure out how to sell us to
more advertisers... (so far blocking keeps that mostly at bay)

~~~
vintageseltzer
Even if manufacturers behave nicely, there is still the possibility that the
devices are eventually somehow compromised by bad actors and used nefariously.

For example, the CIA developed and deployed a program to use the built-in
microphone on Samsung "smart" TVs to spy on targets, even when it looks like
it's off: [https://www.theverge.com/2017/3/7/14841556/wikileaks-cia-
hac...](https://www.theverge.com/2017/3/7/14841556/wikileaks-cia-hacking-
documents-ios-android-samsung)

~~~
jjeaff
I would hazard a guess that compromising your phone or laptop to record
everything all the time would be easier than an echo.

------
Erik816
It seems insane to me that Amazon wants me to pay them money to put something
in my home that will make it far easier to order things from Amazon. That's
not even considering all the valuable data they are mining from all the Echo
units out there. They should be paying ME for this privilege.

~~~
azinman2
I doubt that shopping is on the top 5 uses. It’s not really compelling given
there are so many variations of product color, size, etc.

It’s better to think of it as a new UI that’s always on but without a physical
device you need to touch.

~~~
nine_k
Think about ordering food and groceries.

~~~
azinman2
I can understanding putting a 'bookmark' on something (add to a shopping
list), but food/groceries I don't think makes sense unless you're ordering
something _highly_ regular with no customization potential and you it's 100%
clear how it's going to get to you (timeline, costs). It makes sense for
Dominos, but do I really trust it to get the 0% yogurt who's brand I forget in
the exact size I want, for which if you ask me the # of ounces I'll look at
you blankly?

Also keep in mind it's not a 'conversation' interface... it's query/answer. It
also doesn't allow me to do multiple things at once, so if I were to inspect
my fridge and order a bunch at once it'd go like this:

Me: "Alexa"

Alexa: "<ding>"

Me: "Order a honey crisp apple medium sized"

Alexa: ".... ok ordering you a medium sized honey crisp apple"

Me: "Alexa"

Alexa: "<ding>"

Me: "Order peanut butter ummmmmm norm-"

Alexa: "... what kind of peanut butter do you want? You can say <18 options>"

... it's a pretty crap experience compared to instacart on your phone, which
is worse than instacart on your desktop, which is worse than being inside the
grocery store on your way home from work.

------
imgabe
This is an interesting way to frame things. An "Alexa holdout". This implies
that the person who does not want an Alexa is some strange outlier. That
everyone else is already doing it, and if you don't want to do it, you're
weird, and what's your deal? We need to write a whole newspaper article about
this weird person who doesn't want Alexa.

------
khedoros1
I like the idea of having something like the Star Trek computer at home. I can
ask it questions, instruct it to do things, and so on. I get the allure, at
least in theory.

I've got Google, Apple, and Microsoft phones around, but none are set to
answer to wake words. Cortana on my laptop is as shut-off as possible. They
all need to be manually-initiated. Transmitting voice without taking a direct,
physical action is basically where I draw the line. After all, typing
something into a search engine needs a sequence of specific actions. I think
that the extra barrier provides the psychological comfort I need.

It's easy to sound like a luddite nutter worrying about some vague conspiracy.
On the other hand, it feels like a lot of companies are getting good practice
at boiling frogs, slowly re-framing what most of society thinks of as its
comfort zone, concerning technology like this.

~~~
eikenberry
Something I've been watching that might interest you is Mycroft
([https://mycroft.ai/](https://mycroft.ai/)). It's free software and open
hardware version of the echo, etc.

~~~
defo_nonconvex
Needs to phone MyCroft homebase for setup (didn't look hard enough to figure a
way around that), and uses Google's STT.

Privacy...not attained.

I shouldn't have to ask Google to open a local file for me.

~~~
khedoros1
> Needs to phone MyCroft homebase for setup (didn't look hard enough to figure
> a way around that)

I think part of their documentation said that you can skip that part, if you
want. Ah, found it. Their github Readme has a section titled "Using Mycroft
Without Home": [https://github.com/MycroftAI/mycroft-core#using-mycroft-
with...](https://github.com/MycroftAI/mycroft-core#using-mycroft-without-home)

Apparently, various groups are using some open speech engines (CMUSphinx and
Kaldi) to work on internationalization support:
[https://community.mycroft.ai/t/are-there-any-plans-to-
move-f...](https://community.mycroft.ai/t/are-there-any-plans-to-move-from-
google-stt-to-something-like-kaldi-or-cmu-sphinx-while-openstt-is-in-
development/1494/4)

> Privacy...not attained.

> I shouldn't have to ask Google to open a local file for me.

I agree.

------
vaishaksuresh
I'm conflicted about Alexa. I keep it muted most of the time. It is also
plugged into a smart outlet that switches it off every night and wakes it up
every morning. I still can't shake the feeling of being listened to. Aside
from the initial excitement, now all i use it for is turning on and off smart
things and playing occasion music from spotify. I might just get rid of it
soon.

~~~
shagie
Toss a network sniffer in and see what traffic is going from the echo device
out and when. Probably won’t see the contents in a meaningful way, but will be
able to see how much and when.

Open it up. Check to see if there is a signal from the microphone to the main
board when the mute button is enabled. Or trust one of the tear down videos.
[https://www.reddit.com/r/amazonecho/comments/5lc5q5/effectiv...](https://www.reddit.com/r/amazonecho/comments/5lc5q5/effectiveness_of_mute_button/)

------
mulmen
I value privacy and I am troubled that it feels strange saying that.

Is there an example in human history of a people giving up a fundamental right
such as privacy for their short term gain? Did the Romans face a similar
temptation? Are we breaking new ground or are we walking into a swamp?

------
username223
If anyone here has a popular podcast, they should include the phrase "Hey
Alexa, order me a JET 26x80 Geared Head Engine Lathe 4-1/8-inch Bore." It's
supposedly the heaviest thing you can order with free shipping.

[https://www.amazon.com/26x80-Geared-Engine-
Lathe-8-inch/dp/B...](https://www.amazon.com/26x80-Geared-Engine-
Lathe-8-inch/dp/B0064BFJ3W/)

~~~
stephengillie
Why is the White House looking into airline bag fees, instead of making this
sort of activity illegal?

~~~
username223
Which activity: free shipping on a multi-ton lathe, people saying specific
phrases on podcasts, or other people buying devices that can order stuff for
them based on voice commands? Where is the source of the rot?

