
People Start Hating Their Jobs at Age 35 - eplanit
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-08-21/people-start-hating-their-jobs-at-age-35
======
sharkweek
I started to notice this in my late 20s. It felt kind of like a "the emperor
has no clothes" moment when I was working at a tech startup that pushed long
hours/weekend work in order to fulfill some "mission" and "greater purpose"
and that I should feel a part of this for the greater good. It kind of hit me
that this was mostly just a fantastic way to extract more work out of young,
impressionable 20somethings who didn't know any better without paying them for
this extra effort, but that, at the end of the journey it will pay off!

With that in mind, I realized that I much prefer being a hired gun, where I
typically can add benefit for about 1-2 years, then it's onto the next thing.
I have very little interest in the corporate grind working my way up from new
employee to VP or whatever, repeating the corporate mission like some sort of
indoctrination, trying to keep myself sane.

I would be interested in a workplace that just kind of accepted this, but I'm
afraid optically, no company wants to present its relationship with its
workforce as entirely trasnactional. I'd be a huge fan.

~~~
gagege
I recently sat through one of those company/product mission presentations at
work. It was one of those "am I the only sane person working here?" moments. I
like our product, I want to see it succeed, but I really can't stand the
religious fervor marketing departments and managers give off. And the amazing
part is that my co-workers seem to completely buy into it. Everyone talks like
what we're doing is going to change the world and yadda yadda yadda, like
there's some kind of prophesy about our social media app.

How about lets make the thing and see if it's successful before we start
singing its praises, okay?

~~~
ditonal
Went through this exactly. My guess is because founders select for
overconfidence (necessary for pitching investors maybe?) It also ties into
founder worship which seems really common (people always dropping reasons
founder is some uberhuman).

I just felt like my intelligence was insulted. I also found out a lot of the
other people who "bought into" the "mission" were really just playing along.

We also did a lot of "agile" that wasn't agile at all. Make "MVPs" that
weren't shippable, do work in 2 week "sprints" but never talk to customers for
months etc

Like you said, I'm much happier at a place that takes a critical eye at its
own projects, is actually willing to change the plan according to feedback
rather than assume we're building the founder's "vision", actually dont' take
ourselves too seriously, etc

~~~
vkuruthers
Sounds like your agile process was actually "flacid agile", this is very
common. Suffering this at my current workplace too.

~~~
Deestan
Agile implies flexibility and strength.

If you don't have "strong" \- i.e. skilled and disciplined - people, or you
can't allow things to happen outside "just because ok?"-rules, it's flaccid
agile.

Like jelly in a glove, it's _flexible_ but not in a useful way.

------
karllager
I believe the tech sector is extremely prone to this: If you cannot climb out
of a technical role, over time, you realize just how clueless most people are,
especially those who imagine themselves of being "in control". Not just a bit
uninformed, no: absolutely positively clueless[1].

If you go the management route, you often give up, what got you started with
all this is the first place: curiosity and exploration, creation and progress.
It becomes: handling paperwork, keeping the clients' bad ideas in check,
motivating those on the payroll, who wait for your instructions to act. It
must be nightmare.

Where is the exit?

[1] Update: I believe this is what is called the nerd/nerd-exploiter dilemma.

~~~
_ncxu
I'm only 31 and found out the hard way that 90% of the way successful people
got to where they are is through charisma, lying, and cheating others.

~~~
apeacox
I'm 40 and I've found out the hard way that 90% people under 35 adopt
_absolute statements_ for everything, as if they think they already know how
the life, the world and the universe work. Good luck.

~~~
penpapersw
You're right. I actually only had one or two people in mind when I wrote that
comment, and I didn't even realize it until you pointed it out. Thanks.

------
randomdrake
This "news" is an advertisement for a report from Robert Half that was
released _last year_ entitled: "It’s time we all work happy™: The secrets of
the happiest companies and employees.[1]"

It was simply rehashed and presented as "new", by Robert Half[2], and is now
hitting the press again.

The full report appears to be available for free on the web[3].

[1] - [https://www.roberthalf.co.uk/its-time-we-all-work-
happy/repo...](https://www.roberthalf.co.uk/its-time-we-all-work-happy/report)

[2] - [https://www.roberthalf.co.uk/press/research-finds-age-
discon...](https://www.roberthalf.co.uk/press/research-finds-age-discontent-
work-starts-just-35)

[3] - [http://heart4happiness.nl/wp-
content/upload_folders/heart4ha...](http://heart4happiness.nl/wp-
content/upload_folders/heart4happiness.nl/2016/10/rh_1016_iapdf_workhappy_can_eng_final.pdf)

------
bigmanwalter
"Refocus on a personal project". How about we stop grinding out 40+ hour
mentally and physically strenuous weeks. Programming hours on end is
difficult, as is sitting at a desk and staring into a monitor. I could be
happy programming for the rest of my life if I'm only doing 15 hours per week
but unfortunately there's extremely little work that pays well per hour and is
part-time. I'm willing to work at a discounted rate, but the offers I'm
finding are either full time, or embarrassingly low hourly rates.

And this is in Canada where we have single payer government healthcare, so
employers don't even have an excuse.

------
psadri
Probably around the same time they realize they don't have unlimited time and
become aware that their life clock is ticking away.

~~~
damnfine
I wasted my good years working and studying for the opprotunity to have this
job I now just slighly less than hate. -everyone my age

~~~
dkersten
Pretty much.

I've been finding myself more and more dissatisfied with my work as I get
older and regretting that I didn't do something crazy when I was younger
instead. Its not too late for me to do some of those things luckily, but its
very difficult to drop everything to do so (and its not clear that, for
example, a years travelling will make me any less dissatisfied with my work,
although at least it would help me refocus my life).

~~~
nostrademons
> and its not clear that, for example, a years traveling will make me any less
> dissatisfied with my work, although at least it would help me refocus my
> life

I think this is the crux of the matter. I know a few people who spent their
20s traveling abroad and having great life experiences, and now that they're
in their 30s, they're like "Shit, I have no career, I'm working at Whole Foods
/ living off my parents / flat broke and I'll never be able to afford the life
milestones that I took for granted like getting married, having kids, or
owning a house."

I think the root of the problem is that evolutionarily, our happiness emotion
didn't evolve to make us happy. Rather, it evolved to force us to take actions
which increase our chance of passing on our genes. There's pretty ample
evidence for this (Google [hedonic treadmill], for example), and yet we keep
wishing we were happier. I guess we're fated to do this, because people who
didn't wish they were happier wouldn't be driven to take actions to pass on
their genes.

FWIW, I don't regret working hard (at some startups, and also one big corp)
during my 20s at all. It was what I wanted to do at the time, and it's given
me some cushion to do other things I want to do. Plus I got to work on some
really cool projects with some great other people, and had a lot of fun doing
so.

------
theprotocol
I must have been an early bloomer. :)

I've always loved the technical parts of my job (and still do), but since day
1 of my career I've gotten nothing but scheming and toxicity when dealing with
my superiors and my various counterparts.

I'm not entirely sure if I've simply been unlucky, or if the majority of
workplaces really are this high strung. The existence of Dilbert suggests the
latter.

~~~
beastman82
FWIW I think it's the former.

------
daliwali
You don't have to be 35 to start hating your job, I did at 25. It begins with
the realization that you're a loser in the corporate hierarchy, and do as
little work as you can possibly do without getting fired.

Software developers tend to complain that their job is tedious, repetitive,
and that they aren't learning anything. Most jobs are like that. I believe
that a large portion of repetitive software development can be automated, and
this is a largely unexplored area.

~~~
whataretensors
The 'little work as you can possibly do' is a trap. It's a toxic frame that
unconsciously poisons a company culture(others notice and emulate). And it
happens, often, as a completely understandable defense mechanism.

This is made worse every time a manager gives an unrealistic deadline.
Exemplified by rushing towards ANY deadlines. Moreover, it happens as a result
of forcing the worker to sit in a chair for 8 hours staring at a monitor.

A huge amount of work can be done by communicating vision, thinking for N
hours, then hacking something together in 1-2 hours. I think companies should
rethink the outdated assembly line factory worker schema for thought workers.

~~~
daliwali
As long as your employers are not acting in good faith, then I don't think
they are worth any extra effort. When most employees are doing just enough
work to get by, it says more about the employer than employee.

------
antoniuschan99
Once a recession hits, people will start feeling how lucky they are to still
have a job. Then after a few years of continued growth in the economy, they
will go back to hating their job.

~~~
dkersten
I can hate my job and feel lucky to have it at the same time. They're
orthogonal concerns.

------
Haul4ss
I'm like the opposite of this. By my mid-to-late 20s I was disillusioned with
my job and career choice. I also felt trapped in my situation because there
weren't a lot of choices for developers where I used to live.

It took me a few years and one big (geographic) move, but I did manage to
steer my career in a better direction. Through hard work and a big ol' dose of
luck, I was in a job I enjoyed when I was 35. And I'm in an even better one
now!

~~~
Winterflow3r
Can I ask what was the geographic move (or is it <somewhere> to SV/SF/Cali?)?
-another trapped dev

~~~
Haul4ss
Upstate NY to greater DC area.

------
3minus1
Misleading title. Should be percent of people who hate their job increases
from 8% to 17% after age 35.

------
tradersam
What? I just turned 20 and I've hated every job I've had (after a while, of
course).

~~~
KGIII
Do you know the adage about finding a job doing what you love, and how it
means you'll never work a day in your life? It is a lie.

Lest you think self-employed is a better option, you'll never work harder than
you work for yourself.

~~~
bigmanwalter
It sucks that this can't be freely admitted in today's culture.

It's possibly true for those who love control and find themselves in a
position over others, but it's definitely not true for those who like working
with their hands and minds.

~~~
KGIII
I think we call those people "psychopaths." I suppose they may enjoy it. Duly
noted.

Sort of related: Way back when, I did manual labor. Later, I'd get my
doctorate and start my own business. I was more exhausted from the mental
labor than I was from the manual labor.

~~~
bigmanwalter
I completely agree, I used to paint in the summers. As soon as work was done,
I was having fun and full of energy. Now, as a developer, I can barely hold a
conversation with my girlfriend I have so little energy left after a day of
work.

~~~
KGIII
I'm a mathematician, and haven't any idea why it is this way. I suppose
there's a name for it, a reason for it, and a bunch of people with varied
opinions on it.

But, it does seem true. It does seem that I'm much more exhausted after mental
labor (for wont of a better term). I'm retired, today. I do all sorts of
manual labor, even though I don't really need to. It doesn't really tire me
out that much. Yet, the mental work is still relatively exhausting.

I have no idea why.

~~~
bigmanwalter
I believe that our bodies weren't designed to handle intense mental processing
for such long bouts. It's no wonder mathematicians, developers and other
knowledge workers require immense volumes of caffeine to get anything done.

The use of caffeine results in a light activation of the fight or flight
response. I'm sure it plays a role in the exhaustion. Especially when the
"threats" are ever present unrealistic deadlines.

~~~
KGIII
This is, distinctly, not my domain. But, curiosity struck and so I went to the
almighty Google and found this:

[https://www.livescience.com/5325-mental-fatigue-perceived-
ph...](https://www.livescience.com/5325-mental-fatigue-perceived-physical-
exhaustion.html)

You may find it interesting, so I figured I'd share it. I offer no opinions,
other than to say it is interesting and that the study was done with a very
small sample size. (I'm unqualified to opine beyond that.)

~~~
bigmanwalter
A lot of research around Chronic Fatigue Syndrome is pointing toward
mitochondria as being a prime culprit. As the most energy consuming organ in
our body, I would expect the brain to quickly use up our easy-to-access /
quick release energy so it's really not so surprising to me.

I have no biology degree, but I find it interesting and have no problems
opining about :p

I've often found a smoothie made with fresh fruit to work well against mental
fatigue. Often it's as or more effective than a cup of coffee.

~~~
KGIII
LOL I avoid opining on some subjects.

I used to be married to a lady who was quite proud of me. Well, so to speak.
She used to take me to these fancy parties where people dress funny and eat
crap I can't pronounce - they also use utensils for certain dishes and all
sorts of fancy stuff.

Well, she'd introduce me as, "Dr. KGIII."

Now, I don't want to say people are stupid - but this frequently resulted in
me being asked medical questions. I, being drunk more often than not, would
give absurd medical advice.

I've since learned to not opine on anything medically related, as it seems to
result in people coming back to me with very angry moods. So, certain subjects
I try just let the links speak for themselves. It works.

Also, my method was to remain in a fairly constant state of inebriation. It
was surprisingly effective, though I'm not sure I'd recommend other people try
it.

------
TheCoelacanth
I wonder if that is roughly the age where it usually becomes apparent that
further career advancement is going to be much harder. I'm 29 and I'm pretty
sure one more promotion will be fairly easy to get, but after that it looks
much harder and will require developing some skills that I haven't needed much
in my earlier career.

------
zaccus
I guess I've avoided crippling disillusionment because I never expected a job
to be fulfilling or whatever. It's a means of providing for myself and my
family, that's it. The idea that it's supposed to be more than that is really
strange to me.

When I was in my 20s the only jobs I could get was stuff like waiting tables
and working in outbound call centers. Whenever I'm down I remind myself that
at least I don't have to do that bullshit anymore. Now I sit in an air
conditioned office with a nice view, and can work from home on a regular
basis. I know what my availability will be in a month. I can take vacations.
That's pretty cool!

I literally can't imagine "loving" a job. No matter what it is, the fact that
I _have_ to do it every day, year after year, just to have health insurance
and avoid homelessness, ruins it for me. That's not a complaint, that's an
assertion that I'm about as happy doing this as I would be doing anything
else.

------
Ancalagon
Made an account for this: I just wanted to point out this thread has been one
of the most thought-provoking I've read in a while. Really grateful to all of
the users posting such great reads in these comments (I think I've read most
or all of them).

------
danvoell
I have to assume that they extrapolated the data to account for kids and
mortgages?

------
synicalx
I've always hated my jobs, but I keep doing them because I'm good at what I
do, and I get paid well for it (at least I do now anyway). For me, work is
just a means to an end - I earn money so I can spend it on the stuff I
actually like.

When you do something you love as a job you'll (probably) either quickly stop
loving it or you won't make any money doing it. I used to be fairly heavily
involved in my local "freelancer" scene and I've seen countless young and
enthusiastic creatives turn into stressed, angry, bitter, and cynical
baristas.

------
kazinator
Of course young people love their jobs!

Wow, there is suddenly all this money; don't have to live in the parents'
basement, weeee!

------
tmaly
I agree 100% on the last statement, refocus your efforts on a personal
project. I think more people in a corporate job should consider doing this
sooner in life. It is a great way to build additional skills, especially in
situations where no training is offered.

------
thinbeige
And all the years before they have this subtle unsettling feeling that
something is wrong with their job.

------
EADGBE
This is why I have no intention of programming anymore after this point.

Maybe I'll enjoy the next thing. Maybe.

------
davidjnelson
So happy I finally found a well managed company to work for!!

------
roryisok
can confirm

------
trentmb
I'm wise beyond my years

------
MesoLimboCortic
For an alternative take on the job satisfaction - age relationship (as well as
inclusion of the moderator variable of job tenure) in the United States, using
a large (12k+) sample:

[https://www.psychologicalscience.org/news/minds-
business/job...](https://www.psychologicalscience.org/news/minds-business/job-
satisfaction-tends-to-increase-with-age.html)

Dobrow Riza, S., Ganzach, Y., & Liu, Y. (2016). Time and job satisfaction: a
longitudinal study of the differential roles of age and tenure. Journal of
Management. doi: 10.1177/0149206315624962

