
If you can’t get into a top-five MBA program, don’t bother - kundiis
http://qz.com/42233/if-you-cant-get-into-a-top-five-mba-program-dont-even-bother/
======
wtvanhest
_If you can’t get into a top-five MBA program, don’t even bother_

In 2009 I had spent 3 years out of school in a multifamily commercial real
estate brokerage role. (We closed transactions above $5M, average around
$25M). It was hard to make great money due to transaction volumes, but I made
enough money to rent an apartment and buy beers every now and again.

In 2012 I made more than 5 times what I made in any year from 2006 to 2009.
The difference was attending a program ranked 24th in some ranking systems and
north of 30 in other ranking systems.

About 50% of my current coworkers went to top 10 schools. The others went to
elite undergrad programs and a few went to programs like mine.

If you want a great job out of an MBA program, you will need to do the
maximum, practice interview skills and network well. You also need to be
willing to tell people that the job they are trying to place you in is below
you. This happened all the time, Target actually tried to recruit floor
managers at an MBA career fair. I looked the lady straight in the eye and
asked if she had any real jobs. Next thing you know I have someone’s card at
corporate.

The company I work for now tried to put me in a fairly basic role, I said
don't bother and I am in a much, much better role now. You have to be
confident that a ranking next to your school name is bullshit.

A top 5 program makes things easier, but even if you get in, you will still
need to work hard. I heard the CEO of Carlyle Group speak on our campus, he
said “Nothing great ever gets accomplished between 9 and 5”. You can bet that
I worked hard, took extra classes, attended EVERY social event, attended
clubs, participated in the on campus investment club, went to the VCIC
International competition, worked for the on campus angel investment network
etc.

I didn't get a lot of sleep and I probably drank too much coffee, but I had a
great time and I got what I wanted and needed out of the program. Not just in
a job, but lifelong friends and an amazing learning experience.

-I'd say 60-70% of my classmates ended up substantially better than when they started. The ones who didn't do as well were either international students who couldn't get visas or the ones who worked the least and were least dependable.

~~~
suyash
Curious which MBA school did you attend, I agree with the author that MBA
outside of top 5 is worthless. 24th seems pretty low in the order and you
would have to struggle a lot, seems like you did.

~~~
wtvanhest
I didn't struggle, I did what hard working people do, I worked hard. I
regularly met people at case competitions from the 5 schools mentioned who
were not getting the job interviews or jobs I was because they expected to get
it for free.

Sure, they get better on campus recruiting than other schools, but the best
jobs are not advertised.

------
benfocker
This is a vastly oversimplified conclusion that only serves the author's
interests. Of course he's going to say the MBA degree is worthless unless it's
from Wharton... he went to Wharton.

A recent survey of top MBA students found that 88% of graduates say they were
happy with the investment they made. Having come from a school that's not in
the so-called top 5 (more like top 10), the MBA has opened so many more doors
and offered opportunities I never would have without a degree.

~~~
hvass
"88% of graduates say they were happy with the investment they made."

Of course you will rationalize your decision and you will say you are happy
after sinking so much money in! Can you imagine answering something else? The
minute you were accepted you were 'happy with your decision' and you crafted
and told yourself a nice narrative.

I'm sure there is tangible ROI for a lot of MBA graduates, but the question
whether they are 'happy' is simply biased.

~~~
jb9
"If people commit, orally or in writing, to an idea or goal, they are more
likely to honor that commitment because of establishing that idea or goal as
being congruent with their self-image."

------
rayiner
This should be tempered somewhat with: "if your goal is to catapult yourself
into a management position at a large organization." Basically, the kind of
big companies that pay the kind of salaries that justify typical MBA tuitions
can fill their recruiting needs by just looking at the top 5-7 (usually, Booth
and Columbia are thrown in with Wharton, Harvard, Stanford, Sloan, and
Kellogg). And these days, even at the top schools it's not like everyone is
choosing between McKinsey or Goldman like they used to. A lot of people have
to hustle in ways they did not before.

Of course, that's not the only career track that might be helped by an MBA. If
you've got an established track record and want to move up within your
organization, or to a higher level position in a related organization, getting
a well-known but not elite MBA can still give you a boost.

------
elchief
I have an MBA (from a top school), and teach a class there now too.

My advice to you:

Do your MBA in a city you want to stay in. You will start businesses and get
job referrals from your classmates that remain in the town.

Go out of your way to impress a few influential profs. Employers ask for the
best students. Profs will get you gigs.

------
wengzilla
These MBA bashing articles always focus on the same thing: that an MBA no
longer guarantees a good job and that it doesn't help you start your own
company. I would love to see an article that examines the real value of an
MBA: its network. Does the value of the connections you make during an MBA
program outweigh the cost, both time and money?

~~~
il
This article makes that point indirectly. If the primary value of an MBA is
the network, you should only go to a school where the network has meaningful
impact on your career prospects: a top 5 school.

~~~
chii
which begs the real question - why is "networking" so important (i mean, i
know its important, but how come many things hinges on you knowing the right
person, instead of hinging on your innate capability instead)?

I don't like the sound of an elite clique forming that excludes those who are
unable to pay or for some reason can't participate in that clique, and this is
prevented from roles such as CEOs/upper management.

~~~
suyash
I have the same question, what does everyone emphasis on Networking so much? I
think it's purely overrated. If you really want to network, you can do that
for a fraction of a cost by attending industry events/conferences and don't
need to spend 2 years to go to Business School.

~~~
wpietri
It's a different kind of network.

The people you meet at conferences are not likely to be highly placed, and you
will not have a particularly strong bond with them.

Spend 2 years in a highly-ranked MBA program, though, and you will develop
deep, long-lasting bonds with people, many of whom will end up in important
positions.

It's the same sort of deep connection you get from being, say, an early
participant at an important company. The PayPal Mafia [1] are important partly
because they are smart individuals, and partly because they're part of a well-
connected network.

I hear you also get a similar effect from incubator programs like Y
Combinator: it builds bonds that last.

[1] <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PayPal_Mafia>

~~~
suyash
Ok, that explains..but I would still not go to MBA school mostly to build
network.

------
mynegation
There is definitely a need for another kind of business education.

At some point I left a cushy full-time position for a consulting (in another
area, to boot). Classic MBA education is obviously too heavy weight for me.
All the things that I needed to run my one-man business I learned from a mish-
mash of other consultants' war stories, web forums, and few books.

I would say that Fred Wilson's MBA series (<http://www.avc.com/a_vc/mba-
mondays/>) or courses like Entrepreneurship 101
(<http://www.marsdd.com/event_series/entrepreneurship-101/>) are getting
pretty close to what I need, but sometimes I need to know things that are even
more down to Earth. Sometimes they are just technicalities, but very important
technicalities: nevertheless. E.g.: how to choose corporate structure, what
documents to keep for audit, does CRA (or IRA) accept scanned images instead
of paper receipts, basics of accounting to make sure I work more effectively
with my accountant, templates for invoices and shareholder meeting minutes,
etc. Moreover, it would be great if such education was split into courses or
stages. E.g. once my business grows large enough, I will want to know about
hiring people, choosing and using CRM, setting up basic IT infrastructure. It
is not that (if and when I grow) I am going to do all that myself, but I need
to understand at least certain things at certain stages to make informed
decisions and give more or less informed "go aheads" to people I hire.

I would definitely subscribe for something like this.

~~~
rscale
You might be interested in your local chapters of SCORE or the Chamber of
Commerce. They often have events featuring that sort of down-to-earth advice,
and are also a good way to meet other small businesspeople.

------
tthomas48
I feel like this is the you can't have the same job for 30 years story told
over and over again.

Yeah. New economy. You have to have skills. You can't just buy a good job.

------
valgaze
For some context, this was the state of play in 2000
([http://www.nytimes.com/2000/10/01/business/a-matter-of-
degre...](http://www.nytimes.com/2000/10/01/business/a-matter-of-degree-not-
for-consultants.html?pagewanted=all&src=pm) ):

"Consulting firms are especially hungry [...] consulting firms still hire
hundreds of M.B.A.'s and say they would sign up even more if many of the most
desirable candidates were not instead joining dot-com companies that can lure
them with equity stakes."

"'Frankly, business is in some ways not that difficult to learn,'' said Rajat
Gupta, McKinsey's managing partner. ''We can pick up people who have not
studied business and can teach them, if they have the intellectual
firepower.'"

"STILL, from some perspectives, these are not the best of times for the M.B.A.
[...] many potential students [... are] eager to join start-ups. If Bill Gates
or Jeff Bezos didn't need an M.B.A., some people wonder why they do, either.
Also, with technology rapidly and fundamentally changing so many industries,
other people worry that two years spent outside the work force is too long."

"Indeed, at a time when technology is changing the rules for many industries,
the skills of scientists and physicians are especially attractive to
consulting firms looking to develop new theories. ''Oftentimes, the problems
they're trying to solve really do require a deeper level of analytical
skills'' than many M.B.A.'s have, said Laura D'Andrea Tyson, the dean of the
University of California's Haas School of Business..."

------
blindhippo
Or... just don't bother with an MBA in the first place. Talented managers are
grown, they are not produced.

Rather, go get a skill that can be used to build something. If you're talented
for management, you don't need an MBA - it will come as part of your
experience and interpersonal skills. Everything important taught in an MBA
program can be learned later in your career as a by-product of simply being
part of a good organization.

~~~
GFischer
Don't underestimate the skills taught at good MBA programs.

However, I'd say that the way to go is to get a position which requires those
skills first, some experience, and THEN do an MBA-type program - you'll get
far more out of it.

Maybe you can learn such skills as a by-product, but doing so in an organized
and challenging way is useful by itself.

Edit: see

<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5065605>

------
hakaaak
I have to agree with this post to some extent. Years ago we had an MBA from a
local university apply and it actually made a negative impact on the interview
when we saw that on the resume- and this was for a business analyst position.

But, I think if you are geniunely interested in business, there is nothing
wrong with getting an MBA anywhere. Just couple it with starting your own
business. You don't even have to list it on your resume if you think it will
hurt. Just be aware- it is NOT cheap, and you are lucky if your company will
fully fund it; the last place I worked would fund only the cheapest in-state
MBA program and they wouldn't pay for books or associated fees, so it would
have been thousands of dollars a year out of pocket I couldn't justify.

~~~
mynegation
From my and few other people's I trust (totally unscientific) observations:
not only MBA does not help you with starting your own business, it actually
lowers your chances.

MBAs come out of schools with a set of skills geared towards big businesses.
That is what MBA was created for. But the real killer: after so many courses
and case studies, for any idea or execution plan you know exactly why it is
not going to work. Because this "was tried before and did not work", or "it
works sometimes, but we do not have enough capital".

Why entrepreneurs that make it big are usually young? It is not just pure
energy and stamina. It is also because they do not "know" that things will not
work. And they don't, 95% of the time. But 5% of the cases when they do,
against all odds, bring real innovation and wealth creation.

MBA adds too much years of this kind of knowledge on your shoulders.

~~~
codeonfire
One or two succeed and tens of thousands fail. With MBA's, one or two succeed
but only hundreds fail. I call that improvement. It's not guaranteed success
but you've improved your situation. And failure does actually have real
consequences.

This "I'm too dumb to know better, therefore I am better" idea is based on the
few lucky people but ignores the huge amount of failures. Consider there may
be ten thousand failures each year that you never even heard about.

------
ryguytilidie
Maybe I'm in the minority here, but I went to a top 25, but not top 5 MBA
program, and my network is not all that great, but I actually feel like I
learned quite a bit.

~~~
mattquiros
I don't mean to be rude, but that doesn't sound like a lot of return of
investment.

------
NoPiece
That only 75% of Stanford MBA grads have jobs at graduation is more a
reflection of the rising value of entrepreneurship than the difficulty of
getting jobs. Students aren't lining up consulting or banking jobs because
there are better prospects in starting something up in silicon valley. That
plus the unfortunate difficulties of foreign students getting work permits.

~~~
wpietri
That's an interesting theory. Do you have any evidence?

~~~
NoPiece
There have been a few articles:

[http://management.fortune.cnn.com/2012/06/01/mba-startups-
st...](http://management.fortune.cnn.com/2012/06/01/mba-startups-stanford/)

It anecdotal, but I've also met several recent grads who are starting
something up, have been working on pitches, or who waited until after
graduation to try to find work at a startup.

------
visualR
What about Chicago?

~~~
redschell
I'd argue he's overlooking some schools. Notably Chicago and Columbia, but
also Duke, Dartmouth, and Berkeley. I'd also say Rice and Texas if you'd like
to work in energy financing, USC and UCLA if entertainment is your game, and
regional programs your employer, should they be so kind, might help you pay
for, especially if your background is in science or engineering and you'd like
to rebrand yourself.

But the underlying point holds: It's not the golden ticket it used to be. It's
primarily for consultants and bankers these days, and those aren't sectors
that hire far and wide. They want brand names that'll impress their clients
who probably attended brand name MBA programs themselves.

------
mayukh
if you're interested in the tech scene, save yourself the tuition money. For a
tiny fraction of the cost, spend a year building your own product/offering and
you will learn more than in any b-school.

~~~
subsystem
I know this is what people are saying, but is it actually true? I would
imagine that if you can land a position as a technical lead in a small team
within a couple of years, you'll be much better suited to lead a startup than
you would be building your own products. Also some selection of business
courses wouldn't hurt like marketing, business intelligence and networking.

~~~
ew
No it isn't true. This is, yet again, a great example of American self-
centered thinking. The rest of the world trains and hires many more MBAs than
the top 5 could possibly put out.

------
ucee054
Harvard, Stanford, INSEAD, London Business School, UPenn, UChicago, Columbia,
Northwestern, Duke, MIT <let's stop here>

Which were the top 5 again? It changes by year and publication

~~~
raverbashing
Yes, limiting yourself to the "top 5" (by what measure?) is a sure sign this
makes no sense.

Top 5 MBAs by number of squirrels on campus?

