
Ask HN: What does a non-programmer bring to a 2-3 person startup team? - yalogin
I attended a startup event recently, a weekend long event the type where you are supposed to meet people and/or find partners to work on your idea. My first time at such an event and I had high hopes but was thoroughly disappointed. About 80% of the people there call themselves business, sales, marketing or product managers. Leaving aside the fact that most of the ideas are about creating groupon clones or iphone apps for which about 20 variants already exist,  I was surprised to see so many non-programmers (about 80% of the crowd) at these events. This is an honest question, why do I need a guy that does not write code on a 2-3 person team? If you are an entrepreneur worth your salt you should do everything.<p>Also how do you meet programming partners. I have been working by myself for a while but it will greatly help to have someone else to work with. What are some credible events that I can attend?
======
brandnewlow
non-programmer founder here,

Things I brought to our startup:

\- convertible note on great terms

\- crappy-but-functioning prototype

\- fully-designed HTML wireframes for prototype v2

\- meaty customer pipeline including 2 customers pre-sold

\- extensive network of sales contacts in our space

\- extensive network of press contacts in our space

\- 2 years experience running a site where I used and helped sell the early
version of our product

I feel I bring a lot of value to our company. And I am very intent on proving
that I will continue to do so. I try to justify my involvement every day. So
when I talk to technical friends of mine thinking about working with someone
non-technical, I tell them about the stuff I do and that they need to ask
these "biz-dev" guys if they can bring stuff like that to the table.

When someone's awesome, their value-add should be clear and obvious. If you
find yourself talking yourself into someone, that's a bad sign.

~~~
laujen
Excellent answer. Companies need capital and product and customers. Figure out
which ones the rest of your team aren't bringing and bring it.

------
strlen
First, Don't go to "startup events", meet with customers, other in your
industry, find advisors (either technical advisors, or non-technical advisors
who have a proven track record of raising funds, doing "business operations"
et al). Attend technical conferences to find programming partners and (most
importantly) potential customers and advisors. Don't waste your time around
"biz dev" types (especially the ones without a "biz" to "dev"), they're the
ones who form the "9/10 startups fail" statistic.

To answer your question, not all non-programmers are equal: much like not all
programmers are equal. The types you see "seeking a technical cofounder" are
the equivalent of 1990s "HTML programmers". On the other hand, a seasoned
startup veteran who may not be actively coding (but, most probably holds a BS
or MS in CS or EE) but has a track record of raising funding, selling the
product, effectively handling business operations and the like has a lot to
contribute (if you're at a stage where you need assistance in anything beyond
product development: when this stage comes depends heavily on the kind of
product you're building), even if his role won't be development.

~~~
russell
I concur. If you are doing web or app development, all you need are some non-
tech reviewers to keep from making stupid mistakes.

If you are looking at the enterprise space strlen's advice is sound. What you
really need is an adviser with connections in your target industry to mae
connections and open doors.for you. (Get legal advice on how to structure the
relationship, so you dont get blindsided by a submarine co-founder later on.)
Find the industry associations; attend their conferences; read their
journals/rags. At the conferences you can find customers you can work with.

------
dgallagher
If you can bring money to the table, that's a big plus. This can either be
from personal investment, or customers you have already lined up dying to buy
Product X, which you need a partner to code up for you because it doesn't
exist yet.

Design and mockups are helpful. If you have an idea for a web app, create
mockups, diagrams, and flow-charts. Explain what every link and button does on
the webpage. How it should behave, what should be happening behind the scenes,
etc... Balsamiq Mockups, Photoshop, and Visio/OmniGraffle are your friend. The
more detailed the better, so long as it's intuitive and easy to follow along.

If it's an iOS app, build the GUI. There are a lot of apps that help you
mockup iOS stuff. Same goes for Mac OS X and Windows programs.

And of course, you should be able/willing-to-learn how to do business stuff.
Finance, accounting, legal work, incorporating, all of the overhead that's
part of running a company. Get deals with vendors, payment processing
companies, capital planning (e.g. budget out how much it'll cost to host on
Amazon AWS vs. Rackspace vs. Linode, etc...). Market research, what
competitors are up to, how you plan to outflank them, etc...

In a nutshell, you need to make yourself valuable to a programmer. The more
refined your idea is (assuming it's good, has an achievable revenue model),
and the more you bring to the table, you increase your likelihood of finding
someone who wants to work with you.

Where do most programmers hang out? StackOverflow, Github, Bitbucket, blogs,
IRC, Hacker News, at work, in front of their computers hacking. There are
programmer meetups you can find on Meetup.org too.

And of course, nothing is stopping you from learning how to code! I'm also a
business/finance guy, but taught myself Objective-C/Cocoa and Python/Django.
It's perfectly doable, but takes time, dedication, determination, and
patience. Grab some books and get crackin! :)

------
fleitz
They bring the ability to open doors that are currently closed. My co-founder
who has not written a line of code has been instrumental in our success. When
I'm coding she's talking to customers, talking to investor, etc. They bring a
different perspective and insight into the product. For the most part we are
not writing software for other coders we're writing for customers. A person
who doesn't code IMHO is always going to be a little closer to the mark than
someone who lives and breathes code. In short, they avoid your company having
a monoculture.

~~~
zaiste
We should stop treating programmers as introvert types who are all the same
with the same (mono) « culture ». Developers can have different personalities:
great coders with great social skills exist. They can bring a different
perspective and insight into the product as well. Frankly I don't see much
room for pure « biz » guys when talking about technological business venture.
;)

------
beagle3
I'm on a 2+1+1 team: 2 hard core techs, 1 manager (but with a serious tech
background), 1 sales/marketing/bizdev/business intelligence person.

The sales/marketing person has made connection with all the right people in
the industry, has generated a huge interest in our product, has gotten some
RFQs running, and has mapped the competitive landscape better than any of us
techs could do. (Especially since we are busy coding) - things that you
wouldn't necessary look at, such as - who are the key decision makers with a
customer organization, what are their internal conflicts and pain points.

Do not underestimate the value of a good bizdev / bizint / sales / marketing
person (bbsm).

That said, it is much harder to evaluate the capabilities of such a person --
even for people who do that well -- than it is for a tech guy to evaluate the
capabilities of another tech guy. So not _every_ bbsm person is worth their
weight in some precious metal - but some (including ours, luckily), do.

~~~
chrisbennet
How does a "manager" contribute when there are only 2 coders?

~~~
beagle3
So far, he's been putting the team together (we didn't all know each other
before we started), working on funding, some strategic alliances, budget
plans, g&a stuff, door openers.

And he also does some technical stuff when he has the time.

He is not a "manager" in the sense of making a plan for others to follow.
Maybe at this point "organizer" and "facilitator" is a better description. But
the usual title for this is manager / CEO. Regardless, even at this stage (for
our kind of market) it is almost a full time job on its own.

------
SabrinaDent
We have a three person startup with one programmer, one design and marketing
person, and one "other." The "other" person on the team had the original idea,
pays the dev bills, and is our primary non-technical tester.

We value all three partners equally - literally and figuratively. Sure, we
could outsource the code, or outsource the design, or decide no idea has value
if you can't build it yourself, but that is just not how we are constituted as
people. We're very comfortable with our configuration.

------
webwright
To name a few non-technical co-founders off-hand: Steve Jobs, Andrew Mason
(Groupon), Ev Williams, Marc Benioff (salesforce.com), etc. The list is a mile
long. A few of those folks can code a bit, but none of them coded much at all
when they were doing their best work.

There is nearly infinite non-programming work for most startups. Design,
fundraising, writing, support, sales, bizdev PR, QA, accounting, talking to
lawyers/tax-folk, recruiting, marketing etc.

That said-- a hackathon-style event is a different critter than a startup. You
need coders, designers, and (a distant third), people who can write compelling
copy.

~~~
yalogin
I don't necessarily agree that Jobs was not a programmer but when you say
design as a non-programming skill do you mean the UI and the 10000 ft view?
Every entrepreneur has the rest of the skills you mentioned. I am not saying
there is no need for the non-programmer type but not when the first team is
formed. They will be part of the first group of hires in my opinion. I really
don't think a business guy should go to a hackathon style event and say I need
a programmer to implement my idea. That is just a glorified way of searching
for an employee on craigslist.

------
turoczy
I'm sorry to say that your experience is not an unusual one.

Speaking as one of those non-programmer types, I'd tend to agree with you. If
you're a small team of developers cranking out code, there's not much value to
having someone who can't contribute to your product.

As far as meeting programming partners goes -- in Portland at least -- I
always recommend user groups or technical focus groups (e.g., Mobile
Portland). We're lucky to have a very active user group community and those
are the events that tend to draw the types of resources you're seeking. Not
the startup events.

~~~
Kaizyn
When would you advise seeking out a business partner then? What role on a team
would you consider to be a valuable contribution? Coming from the non-
programmer side, I hope that you might have a better appreciation for this
than one of us code monkeys.

~~~
turoczy
I've always found, as a marketing guy, that I'm most helpful once the
developers' initial prototype is up and running. That's when folks like me can
start helping carve out the minimum viable product, identifying and
communicating to the target market, and crafting the story to help get the
product out there.

I've found that engaging earlier--and attempting these efforts sooner--is a
mistake. It tends to cause more conflict than not. To me, engaging too early
is like standing there and telling a painter "maybe you should use more green"
or telling a musician "try a different chord."

I find I'm most helpful when I can engage with a developer who has realized
the initial iteration of his/her vision.

Admittedly, this may result in a little wasted time and some backtracking. But
more often than not, that's a small hurdle for the benefits of a) having
someone realize their vision and b) reaching a point of being comfortable
with, seeking, and accepting criticism and guidance. It just starts the whole
relationship out on a much better footing.

------
retube
Because people that (just) write code aren't going to make money. A product is
nothing, NOTHING, without sales. Mostly those sales are driven by people
specifically tasked with that. How they make sales happen will be a
combination of industry contacts and knowledge of how to build the appropriate
sales channels.

~~~
retube
I'd be interested to know why I got DV'd for this, given that the top answer
almost perfectly echoes this sentiment.

~~~
pgbovine
think about the HN demographic, and it's not a surprise that a knee-jerk
reaction to your post would be a swift downvote

------
mikealle233
I don't understand why all those product and marketing people don't form
programmerless teams and cheaply outsource their initial programming needs.

This won't work for immensely complex ideas, and it won't produce award-
winning code, but it'll be good enough to create a minimum viable product and
see if it has traction.

If it does get any traction, THEN they can worry about finding a programming
partner, and the question of what they bring to the team will be clear -- a
business that has already shown traction.

~~~
nkohari
There's all sorts of problems with this. Usually startups don't have enough
money to hire good developers, so they try to pay people in equity. Most
developers who aren't personally invested in the idea or the founding team
aren't going to split equity with non-technical people unless everyone is
clearly bringing something to the table (marketing, fundraising, etc).

Unless there's a clearly even split of labor in the early days of a startup,
the technical members of a hybrid team are taking the majority of the risk. To
get the company on its feet, they'll need to sink a correspondingly large
amount of time into developing the product versus their non-technical
cofounders.

Software is very expensive to build. Let's say that to take an MVP from zero
to market will take only one man-month of effort (160 hours) -- which, when
you consider billing systems, etc. is likely a low estimate. If you paid a
good consultant $100/hour to build it for you, that's about $16,000. Many
startups don't have this kind of cash sitting around.

So let's say you outsource the development to offshore developers to save some
money. Let's say you start to get some traction, and you want to bring on a
technical co-founder. It's going to be a really hard sell to get a developer
to join your project after your product is already poorly-written. Developers
hate maintenance. If a group of non-technical people approached me with a
post-launch MVP, I'd assume their code was bad and run for the hills. (At a
minimum I would ask to see it before agreeing to anything, which would likely
just solidify my viewpoint.) If you're willing to throw out the MVP code and
have the new cofounder rewrite it, that might be something you could convince
a developer to join up for -- but be prepared to "lose" the money for the
initial MVP development.

It's not enough to bring a "business that already has traction" to the group.
Maybe if you were selling me the MVP, that might be interesting, but if you
were looking for a partnership, I'd want to know what you'd spend your time
doing.

~~~
mikealle233
_"Software is very expensive to build."_

Not necessarily. Offshore outsourcing of programming is quite cheap. The
question is whether your MVP is so complex it warrants a $100/hour local
programmer to handle that complexity. In many cases, it's not complex enough
to warrant it, and paying $100/hour to a developer is inconsistent with
building a MVP, because you're hiring a bells and whistles developer better
suited to a large corporation with millions in profit at stake if the
developer screws up. But, sure, if you're building something complex, you're
shooting yourself in the foot by cheaply outsourcing.

 _"If you're willing to throw out the MVP code and have the new cofounder
rewrite it, that might be something you could convince a developer to join up
for -- but be prepared to "lose" the money for the initial MVP development."_

That's exactly what I'm proposing. Who cares if you "lose" the money for the
MVP development? If the MVP has shown traction, you haven't "lost" the money.
You've paid cheaply for a traction proving MVP. That is money well spent, and
now it's time to move onto the next level.

In any event, the idea that a developer would turn down an opportunity to be a
founding equity member of a startup, which has a product that's already proven
traction, because the MVP contained messy code is absurd. I'm not saying some
developers wouldn't think that...I'm saying such developers are irrational.

 _"...but if you were looking for a partnership, I'd want to know what you'd
spend your time doing."_

Your attitude puzzles me. You have two hypothetical choices, if you were
offered such a partnership.

1) Say no and continue to build software with a 90% chance of failure.

2) Say yes and build software with a 90% chance of success.

Even if the non technical cofounders sit on their asses and do absolutely
nothing while you code all day, you'd be sitting on 33% equity in an already
successful startup, when they took all the cash risk up front to prove the
thing works. All you've got to do now is code and build on existing success.
And you think that's an offer that you should scoff at?

In reality, the non technical cofounders wouldn't sit around and do nothing.
This would be a group of people who've already proven they can go from zero to
traction proving MVP on their own, and surely they'd continue to work in non-
technical ways to make the product a success. I don't understand why you'd be
so skeptical about what they'd do with their time, unless you think their
success was dumb luck.

~~~
nostrademons
Where is competition in your analysis?

Yes, there are many possible software products that can be done cheaply with
outsourced labor. The problem is, because they _can_ be done cheaply, they
_are_ done. Why should anyone use your Groupon clone when they could just use,
well, Groupon.

You can go through a whole lot of MVPs and find out that all of them aren't
really viable.

And then if it _is_ viable, why should the developer work for you instead of
competing with you? If you're throwing away the initial outsourced prototype
and starting from scratch, what advantage do you have over him? While you're
scrambling to find a technical cofounder to replace your cheap outsourced
team, he could just reimplement the thing, plus all the improvements that
actual usage has suggested, and keep 100% of the equity. You're just asking to
get Winklevossed.

There's a reason why Paul Graham advises people to take a look at their
alternatives and then do whatever's hardest. Business is about competition,
about having a durable competitive advantage that other people can't easily
replicate. If everybody can do it, nobody makes any money off it.

~~~
mikealle233
You're missing marketing, sales and business development in your analysis.

Groupon isn't successful because of its programming prowess. It's successful
because of its sales, marketing and business development prowess. Groupon is a
great example of a startup that's not that complicated in the technical
department (or at least it wasn't when it started...now it's large enough to
where it's justifiable to bring in programming all stars to make sure
scalability, maintainability, etc. are in order).

So, as to why a developer should work for a proven MVP rather than building
his own clone, the reason is simple...why is it more attractive to be an
equity technical founder of Groupon vs. starting your own Groupon, if Groupon
approaches you after it's already gained traction?

------
apu
Here's spencerfry's fantastic list of what non-programmers bring to a startup:

<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=779448> <\- HN post

<http://spencerfry.com/whats-a-non-programmer-to-do> <\- full article

If you're looking to add someone to your team, you want someone who will do as
much from this list as possible.

------
bauchidgw
i have a deep respect for sales and marketing people, as they can do things
that i cant do (do smalltalk, sell bullshit and they actually like talking to
people more than pushing to github)

if you want to have a successful company, start collecting their cards, if you
dont need them now, you will do later.

said that: beware of talkers, if they do not yet have or had at least one
(side) business then they do not have a clue.

~~~
pakeha
Lol @ "they actually like talking to people more than pushing to github"

I consider myself to fit in this category. I've always been a hobbyist
programmer, but it is my damned penchant for humans over social code hosting
platforms that has prevented me from becoming a professional developer, for
better or worse.

------
westiseast
I'm a junior programmer who's just started my own business (selling tea,
www.minrivertea.com). We have physical products, but sales are 100% online.

I'd say the biggest challenges have not been technical. Understanding business
law, import/export, promotion and marketing, getting photography, sales,
dealing with accounts. That side of things has taken up 50% of my time, but
it's been 90% of my stress.

------
Jd
As I see things, the main job of the non-programmer is marketing/sales.
Sometimes you need this, sometimes you don't (@Yegg's "What are you building?"
post is useful here [http://www.gabrielweinberg.com/blog/2010/02/are-you-
building...](http://www.gabrielweinberg.com/blog/2010/02/are-you-building-an-
empire-sparking-a-powder-keg-or-starting-a-movement.html)).

If you are selling big enterprise products priced above ~ $10K you absolutely
need marketing/sales.

If you are lighting a powder keg, you got lucky and probably don't need much.

If you are trying to start a movement, you require hype, which can come from a
dedicated community (e.g. tech) and may not require independent marketing. But
you may need a community person. Or you may not be so lucky (e.g. your market
is used car sales) and may at some point need a full-time SEO/partnership/etc.
person.

If you are going "empire" you will eventually need these sorts of people,
since they reach people that can't be reached otherwise. If you are going
empire you will also need management people, since large organizations get
unwieldy and there are lots of things they learn in b-school about wielding
spreadsheets and org charts that will probably be useful.

Conclusion? I tend to think in general you don't need a marketing/sales person
until you have a product, but it may be good to get them on board early in
some circumstances, particularly if you are also searching for VC or trying to
define the product better and need someone who can interface directly with
potential clients and gather requirements, etc.

------
mikeocool
As a technical co-founder, it took me a little while to really see the full
value in having an awesome biz dev co-founder. I finally arrived at when she
told the team she was going to secure us a number of key partnerships in a
matter of weeks, that would be a huge boon to our user acquisition strategy. I
said ok, but totally did not believe that she would be able to deliver.

Over the next few weeks I didn't have to think about any of the work that went
into the partnerships: responding to emails, making decks, prepping for
meetings and building relationships. I was free to continue work on the
product without distraction. And in the end she delivered in a huge way.

I love thinking about and building product, but building sales and
distribution partnerships is well outside of my wheelhouse; having someone on
our team who I trust to execute on that half of our business is invaluable.

------
GiraffeNecktie
Here's what I'm bringing to the party as a non-technical founder:

\- Money

\- Domain knowledge

\- Patents (not yet confirmed, starting this process soon)

\- Office space in a cool location

\- Over thirty years of communications experience including technical editing,
ad copy, press releases etc.

\- Lots of experience with web content management systems (contributed a lot
of documentation for one open source project)

\- Previous founder experience (though not a tech startup)

\- The idea. Yeah I know what you're thinking. An idea + $2 will get me a cup
of coffee at Starbucks but this is truly an innovative approach to a huge
under served market. That's worth something.

\- Journeyman graphic design and layout abilities

\- Courage, creativity, sense of humor and perspective

-

------
agaton
For me, the real question isn't about "how to find a technical or non-
technical" co-founder but "how to find another great entrepreneur that want to
join a hell of a ride". That's even harder than to find a person w tech- or
non-technical background.

Of course it's a big plus if the person that you'll have as an partner is a
great programmer, designer or business developer. But to be honest, the most
important asset of a co-founder is his engagement. Find people who are highly
motivated to work with you, your idea and your product and you'll be able to
achieve awesomeness.

------
ainsleyb
I think there's a fine balance with teams and team personalities. Sometimes a
non-tech cofounder can bring good expertise in something you're not very good
at.

I'm not a developer, but I am doing a high-tech startup. My cofounder is
extremely good at the overall backend work of our product. He's also very good
at talking (sometimes I can't get him to stop) and understanding the overall
UX the product should have. How have I helped? Well, for starters we
established what he's good at and figured out where the gap is. He hates
frontend work, so I have designed the site and learned some HTML/CSS to
expedite the frontend development. We're also both taking on 500 hats a
minute. There are things he's good at (the technical speak) and things I'm
good at (the non-technical speak) and things we're both good at (client
meetings, processing feedback, making sure the product is working quickly).
We're working on a security problem. As it is, we have completely different
ideas; he's always been somewhat more of a blackhat, whereas I'm more of a
whitehat, so our complementary ideals have been helping us get great publicity
and great customers lined up.

I don't think a non-technical cofounder is necessary, but if you can find
someone who can or is willing to do what you don't want to deal with (the
books, the legal work, the frontend; everyone has something they aren't good
at/don't like), who is also someone who can balance your ideals and
personality you can get a great working team going.

------
robot
I think the most important skill to expect of a non-programmer is
presentation.

Startup success boils down to two problems:

1\. Building the product

2\. Finding customers

Be it personal powerpoint presentations, meetings, preparation of advertorial
material, giving talks, or website content, the presentation of your product
is really important. It is what differentiates a company solving real problems
from a bunch of geeks doing some geeky stuff in a lab. It reveals the
potential of your solution to real users.

~~~
jremsikjr
To be fair you've ordered those as a developer. Non-programmer types are more
likely to invert that list:

1\. Finding customers 2\. Building the product

Where finding the customers is something that they can be incredibly
passionate about and actually affect. This is what the non-programmer worth
their salt can add to a 2-3 person start-up. A skill-set aimed at focusing the
pivots to those most likely to sell.

------
gordonc
Fuck startup events (and startup "incubators" for that matter.) Everybody
wants to 'play startup' these days.

Valuable non-programming skills include, in order of immediate product
utility: user experience design, visual design, customer support, business
development, marketing. And, more importantly, and much rarer, the ability to
find all those people that fit with the team and to create a working
environment of mutual respect.

------
dlevine
A friend of mine has said that there are three things someone can bring to a
startup

\- The ability to build a product

\- The ability to bring in money (either VC or sales)

\- The ability to tolerate risk

As a technical founder who has worked with many non-technical people, I have
found it quite rare that a non-technical founder can bring in much on the
product side. Almost every non-technical founder I have worked with claims
that he is a "product person," but I have found that pretty much none of them
are.

Some non-technical founders are good sales people, and can bring in either VC,
customers, or both. Some technical founders can do this too, but if you are
good enough at this, you will be pulling your weight.

The final thing is the ability to tolerate risk. If you can keep the team
motivated and on-target even when things are going badly, that is almost
enough in many cases. Very few technical founders can do this well (since most
engineers are pretty risk averse), so this is an opportunity to distinguish
yourself.

In summary, if you can raise money AND keep everyone else happy and
productive, you are pretty much doing your job at the early stage.

------
culturengine
The skills that gets you into business (programming for example) are not the
ones that will make you successful at business (everything else).

So perhaps the question shouldn't be about what does a non-programmer bring to
a small team, but rather what do you as current co-founders not personally
bring to your own business?

If building a scalable money making app/service/product/thing is what you want
to do, then customer development is going to be just as important as product
development, and connecting the dots between customers/users and your
idea/features cannot be written with code alone.

Either the existing co-founders will need to share an equal level of
interest/skill/time for the other parts of the equation
(design/ux/sales/marketing/support/bizdev/funding/everything else), or you
will need to acquire these skills via payroll or equity.

Knowing in which areas you suck will help this process a lot, and this only
comes with giving something a go yourself.

Once you know your weaknesses you will be in a good position to assess what
skills/experience a new co-founder will need to have to balance things out.

------
danielwozniak
I was hired on to a three person team of a startup. When I was hired the make-
up of the company was like this:

\- Founder, the idea guy. He was technically competent but by no means a
programmer. He mainly handled all the sales an customer interactions.

\- 2 very excellent programmers.

I was the fourth person to join the team. I had never been a programmer but
had attended school with a CET major. So I had done some minimal programming.
This was my first attempt at getting a full time, real world, kind of job.

I was not hired on as a programmer, though in the interview I told them I was
just trying to get my foot in the door and ultimately wanted to be a
programmer. I was hired to handle customer support for their 30 plus customers
around the world.

First and foremost what I brought to the team was passion for the work. Aside
from that, provided dedication and a technical skill set. It was a very
technical product, so they needed someone who could understand it and who
could also explain it in sometimes simpler terms to the customers.

Over the years I worked very hard and received good reviews from customers. I
made some mistakes and learned from them. As time progressed I took on more
technical responsibilities while maintaining my role as the 'go to guy' for
support. By the time the company was sold and changed hands I became a full
fledged developer and relinquished my support responsibilities to the support
department of the company that acquired us. Now I am an equal partner with the
two developers from that venture in our own startup.

We recently had a conversation about what each of us was bringing to the
table. My two partners made it very clear, the reason they asked me to be
involved was not because of my uber programming skills. These two guys are
seasoned while I am still a beginner. They wanted my passion.

------
stretchwithme
If they served no function, they would have been worked out of the gene pool
by now.

A developer can build, but what can sell and actually selling it are another
matter entirely.

I really gained a lot of respect for sales people at one startup I worked for.
How they were able to cold call into a company and find a need and money to
pay for addressing it is pretty amazing (to me anyway).

------
nicw
There are lots of areas that non-programmers can flesh out, especially for a
startup. Be honest with yourself - just because "you should do everything"
doesn't mean that you are great at everything. While you're focusing on what
you are great at (programming), a non-programmer can be talking up potential
clients, creating the marketing pages, working out the go-to-market strategy.
This other person could be a kickass designer and they could be building all
your collateral.

Comparative advantage is huge here. Yes, you could probably fill out all the
business incorporation paperwork, write all the copy,etc,etc - but having
another person do that work lets you focus on your primary skill.

Biggest thing for me working w/non-programmers? They keep me focused on
building features that are useful to users. They still applaud the non-
noticeable things like a sweet Hadoop cluster I built but the overall focus on
product is key.

------
crasshopper
Anyone who is into your project can be a boon to you. The challenge is _up to
you_ to figure out what s/he can offer. Even if it's just beta-testing, even
if it's just someone to bounce ideas off of, even if it's just talking the
business up to their friends, _everybody_ has something to offer.

Secondly, imagine you're talking about someone who is willing to learn
programming, with your help. Even someone to just do HTML wireframes. If you
spend 20 hours teaching them and over the course of several months they then
independently do work that would have taken you 35 hours - that's still a net
gain for you.

Part of being a boss is figuring out what other people's skills are and _how_
you can fit them into your team. If they're enthusiastic about what you're
doing, you're far, far ahead of Cubicle Corp which has to bribe people into
working for them.

------
rocamboleh
I am in my early twenties and am seriously considering a career in
entrepreneurship. I have a partner and we are in the midst of entering our
business idea into numerous entrepreneurship contests. The only problem is
that neither of us know any code. One of our business coaches, a successful
entrepreneur himself, suggested that the programming can be done with little
problems -that there is still much utility in two idea boys. However, to be
truly successful, it has occurred to me that we will need to know the ins and
outs of programming. Perhaps we won't need to be experts, but a successful
leader must be well versed in every aspect of his company. Does everyone
agree? Can anyone make some recommendations about where I should get started
learning code?

~~~
swalkergibson
As someone who was in your position about 2 years ago, I have the following
advice for you.

First, you should look at some tutorials before you find this individual so
you understand the very basics of whatever language you are looking to grok.
If you are looking for PHP, www.w3schools.com is a decent place to start for
the super basics.

Once you have a very basic understanding of the language, the best thing to do
is find a developer who will work for equity, or a minimal salary, and make it
your job to watch him/her as he/she builds your product. It is definitely
going to tie up most of your time when you could be doing "other things," but
it will serve two major purposes. For one thing, you will have at least a
rudimentary understanding of the technologies which will compose your product,
thus assisting you in future hires. Secondly, assuming the individual you
bring on initially is patient enough, you will have a private tutor who can
step you through the creation of a real product, as opposed to contrived
academic problems which you will lose interest in very quickly. Granted, this
is really just "minimum viable programming" insofar as you will probably not
have the occassion to really generate a deep understanding of the concepts
behind software development, but at least you can contribute more directly to
the actual product.

Ultimately, this approach is dependent on the individual you bring on to build
the initial product. If he/she is patient and willing enough to be your
teacher, then it can work out nicely.

Best of luck!

~~~
rocamboleh
Thanks for the input! I assume you found a similar individual? I'm eager to
learn and absolutely concur on bringing someone in who is both knowledgeable
and recognizes the importance of everyone knowing the ins and outs of their
product.

------
edash
A good "business person" should be well-versed or at least dumb and ambitious
in most of the following:

    
    
      - Hiring
      - Usability
      - Accounting
      - Copywriting
      - Customer Service
      - Project management
      - Business development
      - Knowledge of the market
      - Website optimization
      - Online advertising
      - Fundraising
      - Analytics
      - SEO
    

And the biggest job of all is to make money. This is a skill that requires
practice and time just like any other.

Most of the people schlocking their half-baked, consumer-oriented, web 2.0
knock-offs at these events are looking for "technical co-founders" because
they have no money. If they haven't made it before, I wouldn't trust their
ability to make it in the future.

------
larrys
"Also how do you meet programming partners. I have been working by myself for
a while but"

The above statement you made is a good reason why you do need someone who is
is not a programmer (as well). There are many skills necessary for a good
startup and many of them don't involve programming.

The fact that you have to ask a question like that of others and can't figure
out the answer yourself is a good indication of how you lack certain skills
that are necessary.

You've been reading to many stories about all that counts is top programming
skills to be a success and the world will beat a path to your door.

------
pumpmylemma

       Also how do you meet programming partners.
    

It's been my experience that trying to find a good person to work with is like
dating. If you're actively trying to find someone, you seem to have less luck
than if you're not trying to find someone and you often settle for something
less than great.

My advice is to go find find some open source projects that tackle a problem
you find interesting and contribute. In the process of working on open source
projects, you'll find people that you can work with well. They might be useful
in the future.

------
nwp
I was with a startup and was the only technical member of the founding team.
While the two other members personally bootstrapped the venture, I have to
admit that outside of the funding, they were of very limited value during the
first 6-9 months when development was the primary activity. In anything, they
were a distraction because they constantly changed things, expanded scope,
etc. Needless to say, it wasn't a successful venture, and from here on out, I
plan to stick with only technical founders.

------
kyan
Broadly speaking, if your idea is really something that you think
people/customers will want to use, you want a guy to be telling the world what
you're doing and getting insights into how you could be doing it better.

Depending on the idea/product/vision, you could argue that that guy is as
valuable or more valuable than a coder.

The best way to meet programming partners is to go where the programmers are -
tap your friend network and, if you're close to a technical school, your
location network.

------
issa
This is a version of the three blind men and the elephant. I promise you there
is a sales/marketing message board out there somewhere with a post about how
programmers are generally interchangable.

The bottom line is that a successful business needs a LOT of things to come
together well, programming is just one of them.

The most important requirement is vision. You need someone with a clear vision
of where the company is, where it is going, and how it will get there.

------
becomevocal
You don't need one if you have all the knowledge and time in the world, with
the network to take advantage of it. So, yes, in most cases you need one.

Now, if you can build a prototype or get traction using your existing team, do
it first. You'll get better candidates that way, and be at a place where you
have a better ability to choose between them.

I agree with other comments here that state their value add should be obvious.

------
encinar
Here's am answer to a very similar question in Quora, a list of things that a
non-technical co-founder should be focus on while the site still being
developed: <http://b.qr.ae/eBYCk2>

If after a 8-10 hours programming day you still can do any of these things
(and do them well enough), you might not need a marketing&sales&business
partner ;)

------
duopixel
The measure of a good programmer is in the quality of the code he produces.
The measure for a good business guy is the value he has generated for himself
and for others.

If a business person hasn't been able to generate value for himself (be it
money, connections, social proof) then he's the equivalent of a programmer who
hasn't written a line of code. It's that simple.

------
choxi
This post on Hirelite gives great insight about your question:
[http://blog.hirelite.com/how-to-evaluate-a-non-technical-
co-...](http://blog.hirelite.com/how-to-evaluate-a-non-technical-co-founder)

As a developer, I'd definitely found a company with someone who has those
skills.

------
roel_v
Where is this type of event? I'm in Europe (the Netherlands, to be more
precise) and I have been trying to meet people who are more business-minded
for years, but I can't seem to find any events like the one you describe. I
guess I'm looking in the wrong places?

~~~
aerique
I was planning to attend this for the first time but I wasn't able to last
time: <http://www.meetup.com/Hackers-and-Founders-Amsterdam-NL/>

Perhaps others who did go can chip in whether it's any good.

Also if you're near Delft I can point you to an upcoming event.

~~~
roel_v
Thanks, I joined that group. I'm in the south but if the event has a 'scene'
around it, maybe it would still be useful for me?

~~~
aerique
I'm not sure. Mail me :-) (see my HN profile)

------
Saidismeenk
Let me get involved in this conversition. I am an entrepreneur, for long time.
I always find the easy way out, but uselly it means piggybacking. If you find
creativity is not important. My metaphore, you can have great building skills
but no ideas to build and take socalled risk you are airbuilder.

If you got ideas but no building skills you are airwaster.

As entrepreneur i know it is very important to have the developer skills. So
iam building that, because the internet will stay and i got billions idea how
to influences that.

But to build one company and stay stuck at that.. It will bore me. But keep on
building and creatibg ideas for the rest of my life is my passion.

------
nolite
do not code*? I find the same problem at startup events in my (non-american,
non-tech) city.. was also thoroughly disappointed. I eventually just started
emailing programming groups looking for programming partners. Eventually (1-2
months later) found one guy, great match.. now we're working on a side
project/product. Its hard though

------
mariusz10jonski
I'm not a programer. But I write business plan in xmind tool. I do Branding -
meaning I rewrite business idea for the market and implement strategy as a
manager. I can be a co-founder with reasonable spendings plan. I have 2
projets that are commodities as well as digital products. And have few good
domains for all sorts of business. So considering your startup idea is of a
business kind, would you like to attend a meeting with me? All best, m

------
killbot5000
Coffee! Heyooo

------
ohyes
coffee?

------
mkramlich
The quick answer should be: anything/everything that's helpful but does not
involve programming. Also, contributing cash is always helpful. Even with a
lean strategy, open source software, etc., there are always going to be dollar
costs and opportunities to spend cash to gain some advantage.

------
aeroforce1
I'm looking for a programer. Please email at johnq30@hotmail.com if interested
in me sending you platform deck

