
Ultra marathon runner earns awards for both first place woman and overall winner - he0001
https://www.runnersworld.com/uk/news/a28720398/ellie-pell-wins-green-lakes-endurance-run-50k/
======
rraghur
Wasn't there a mexican tribe where they run marathons all the time? IIRC, a
woman from the tribe participated and won an ultra marathon hands down (and
wearing slippers made of tyres or something like that)

Found it -
[https://elpais.com/elpais/2017/05/24/inenglish/1495618559_31...](https://elpais.com/elpais/2017/05/24/inenglish/1495618559_311854.html)

~~~
croon
The same tribe detailed in the book "Born to Run" by Christopher McDougall
that was very popular a few years ago.

~~~
comicjk
The book that led to the runner's fracture in my left foot. Note to future
readers who tend to overdo things: we may be born to run, but not on concrete.

~~~
frereubu
I came to this conclusion after trying to run in Vivo Barefoot shoes on tarmac
(thankfully without the extra prompt of an injury). The technique he describes
- avoiding heel strike and running on the balls of your feet to allow your
Achilles tendon / calf to provide spring - is a good one, but it's just as
effective in cushioned running shoes. I do wish running shoes had wider toe
boxes like the Vivo ones though.

~~~
hnlion
That's where Altra's come in. Wide toe box, zero drop, but cushioned.

~~~
frereubu
Thanks, will take a look.

------
genzoman
Barely, if any, difference between the sexes in races at this distance. More
women competing mean more will continue to win. Congrats to the BAMF who won.

~~~
geargrinder
It's great when women win these races, and I wish there were more, but don't
get the misperception they are somehow faster in this sport compared to men
than in other sports. It all depends who shows up on the start line. Elite
women are faster than nearly all the men, so if an elite woman shows up, but
no elite men do, she will likely win. List of ultrarunning records:
[https://ultrarunning.com/featured/ultrarunning-magazine-
all-...](https://ultrarunning.com/featured/ultrarunning-magazine-all-time-
lists/) Normally awards are for "First Place Male" and First Place Female."
Not sure why this race had an award for "overall."

~~~
new2628
Honest question: why do you consider it great when women win these races, as
in, is it in some sense worse when men win them?

~~~
jessaustin
That women are winning these races, is a credit to this sport. Sports have no
intrinsic value that isn't somehow tied to the good they do for humanity. We
should judge them by their fruits. Even so, the vast majority of sports are
constructed so that, on average, men have big advantages. It could be that
it's easier to construct a sport that way. It could also be that constructing
a sport that way better appeals to the prejudices of society. After all, there
are some sports in which women compete at the highest level. For example,
horse racing, open-water swimming, and as we see here "ultra" running. It's
not necessary for women to win all or even most of the top prizes, but it's
great that they win sometimes. Personally, although I enjoy watching gendered
sports like ice hockey and American football I definitely see them as inferior
to sports that exhibit more gender equality.

~~~
jki275
I don’t think anyone “constructed” running. People have been running for
millennia.

~~~
jessaustin
Sure, running in general is basic to humans. The particular circumstances of
particular races, like "so many laps over this particular course through the
mountains" are very much a decision that some people made. Such decisions
affect the results of those races.

~~~
jki275
It is illogical to believe that races were "constructed" by somehow varying
the number of laps or terrain to make sure men win. It is far more likely that
races were "constructed" to mimic the types of terrain people already ran.

~~~
jessaustin
Yeah well, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man.

~~~
jki275
It's generally accepted history. But believe as you wish.

------
Cenk
> “I ended up taking both awards—the overall winner and the first place
> female,” Pell said. “I felt bad that the first place man didn’t have one, so
> I tried to convince them to blot out the ‘fe’ on ‘female’, but they said to
> just keep both trophies. It was pretty funny.”

~~~
ultrarunner
That's just an incompetent race director. There is no end to the lack of
thought put into award schedules. I once got three (cheap plastic) medals for
winning various categories that all overlapped during an awards ceremony that
went on _way_ too long.

I suspect that this is the same (boring) situation, but runner's world being
the garbage magazine that they are figured they could push the sociopolitical
angle and get more clicks.

------
davidrm
In running, female only trophies follow the same philosophy as age group
trophies. Overall winner is reserved for whoever crosses the line first. Then
there are M/F age groups for older runners (5y wide age groups most often
starting at 30), and "female overall winner".

Having male only trophies is most often redundant because 99% of overall
winners are male. That's just life. From time to time, an high/elite level
female runner shows up when there are no elite male runner and she takes the
overall winner. And that only happens in niche races (niche being every race
longer than a marathon and some smaller city races). Ultras are also more
likely to have DNFs (did not finish).

There's yet to be a popular race (6 majors, olympics, world championship, even
regular "city marathons" etc.) where there's an overall female winner, because
both m/f elites show up and men win by a huge margin.

~~~
throwaway_law
>There's yet to be a popular race (6 majors, olympics, world championship,
even regular "city marathons" etc.) where there's an overall female winner

Courtney Dauwalter dominates men in Ultra races, you can call them niche races
if it helps your ego, but lets call those races what they really are...the
longest and most grueling races, stacked with elite and professional runners.

~~~
emptyfile
Nonsense from a user with a throwaway.

>Courtney Dauwalter dominates men in Ultra races

She will sometimes beat them, if that's what you mean.

>you can call them niche races if it helps your ego, but lets call those races
what they really are...the longest and most grueling races, stacked with elite
and professional runners.

Even the most competitive ultra is a niche race. If the award money for ultras
increased 10x overnight then east africans would be dominating in 5 years (the
most competitive ultra in the world, UTMB, has a reward of €35,000).

And competition wise, races in america are a far cry from european ultras
which will often have thousands of runners. Not to mention thousands of meters
of elevation.

The fact that this woman's many extraordinary achievements are buried under
titles like "Women are better then men in ultras" is disgusting to me.

EDIT: Oops east, not west africans.

~~~
throwaway_law
>She will sometimes beat them, if that's what you mean.

Yes, by as much as 10 hours in the MOAB 240, she set the record in a 100K
race, she won another 100 miler by 75 minutes. She set another record in a 24
hour run.

>Not to mention thousands of meters of elevation.

Like the MOAB 240 in Utah she won by 10 hours with 29,467 feet of elevation?

>The fact that this woman's many extraordinary achievements are buried under
titles like "Women are better then men in ultras" is disgusting to me.

Where did you get those quotes? Maybe you should consider you are "disgusted"
by the woman's accomplishments and frame them as "She will sometimes beat
them," without being able to acknowledge the degree of her victories over 2nd
place male runners. Does she win every race she enters? No, of course not, but
when she wins, she sets records and we are not talking seconds or minutes.

~~~
emptyfile
Running 240 miles thru a desert and winning against all competition is very
impressive, but how on earth do you spin that to a generalization like "she
dominates men in ultra races" is totally beyond me.

>Does she win every race she enters? No, of course not, but when she wins, she
sets records and we are not talking seconds or minutes.

You literally made my point.

~~~
throwaway_law
So to say she dominates, mean she must win every race she enters? I don't
think so, otherwise you just literally made my point, men don't dominate women
(i.e. they don't win every race).

Yes, she dominates...when the 2nd place male athlete isn't even close that is
domination. 10 hour victory from her 1st place to 2nd place, 75 minutes from
1st place to 2nd place...that is domination in running.

~~~
emptyfile
This is what domination looks like
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K%C3%ADlian_Jornet_Burgada#Sel...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K%C3%ADlian_Jornet_Burgada#Selected_results)

She is THAT, for women. She is not that for men. Case closed, or at least it
would be with anyone who actually runs ultras, or runs at all.

If you can't understand that breaking a record by 10 hours means that the
previous record was shit, then I don't how to help you understand that.

In any case I don't like discussions with people who hide behind throwaways.
Because I have a feeling you're just trolling me.

Push your weirdo agenda as hard as you like, I don't care. People like you are
ruining this forum.

~~~
throwaway_law
No one would argue that isn't consistent success at the highest levels of
running.

>If you can't understand that breaking a record by 10 hours means that the
previous record was shit, then I don't how to help you understand that.

I get it you don't like women, and their success threatens you and your
identity. What were you saying about weirdo agenda? You can't seem to
acknowledge the few hundred men who have been unable to break her record (or
come anywhere close for that matter).

>Case closed, or at least it would be with anyone who actually runs ultras, or
runs at all.

I look forward to watching you compete against her in a future Ultra and
showing us all how she is shit and her records are shit. In fact, as your
accusing me of using a throwaway, tell us all your real name and these Ultra's
you have competed in and lets see if we can find a single race where a women
didn't beat you.

~~~
dang
Would you please follow the site guidelines
([https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html](https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html))
when posting here? You've been breaking them with bits like these:

> _I get it you don 't like women, and their success threatens you and your
> identity_

> _You really seem obsessed with penises_

> _you can call them niche races if it helps your ego_

We ban accounts that make a habit of posting in the flamewar style, so please
edit such swipes out of your comments here, even if another commenter is wrong
or annoying. They degrade discussion badly—it's notable how much worse this
comment is than where things started out—and I'm sure you can make your
substantive points without them.

------
oinkgrr
An example where we treat men as the default and women as atypical?

[https://www.abramsbooks.com/product/invisible-
women_97814197...](https://www.abramsbooks.com/product/invisible-
women_9781419729072/)

------
ryanmcbride
Happy for Ellie Pell (aka "Woman" in the article title)

Sexism of low expectations. Race director wanted to be sure to include a best
in class trophy for women, which is fine, but assumed (incorrectly) that there
wouldn't be a need for a best in class trophy for men. Assumed that they'd
just get the 'best overall' trophy.

~~~
brippalcharrid
> Sexism of low expectations

> “It’s tricky, because in the world we live in now, people would think I was
> being sexist if I just gave out overall awards and didn’t have female-
> specific awards,”

Ironically, it seems that the race organizer had first set out not to have
gender-specific awards at all, but they chose to add the female-specific award
to avoid accusations of them marginalizing women's achievements (and being
labelled "sexist").

------
aphextim
From what I've observed running those ultras are just as much of a mental task
as they are physical. Granted you need to be in extreme physical shape to do
one of these. I feel that if you were to take a bunch of people that are
physically capable and enter them, those with the mental fortitude are going
to be the ones coming out on top and/or finishing.

I am wondering if this is part of the reason why women are able to compete
just as well as men on equal footing.

~~~
ordinaryperson
Nothing against women but they are not able to "compete just as well as men on
equal footing" in ultras. Her time of 3:58 is more than an hour behind the
men's record, suggesting the men's competition at this race was not strong.

At the shortest distance, 100 meters, Flojo still has the world record at 10.5
seconds, a full second behind Usain Bolt's 9.5. Whether long or short races,
women cannot physically compete with men.

In the ultra world Sierre Zenal was just recently run where Killian Jornet set
a new course record, and Pike's Peak Marathon is in a few days. Most of the
serious ultra runners are doing those events, not this one.

That being said, very cool for her.

~~~
EdwardDiego
> Whether long or short races, women cannot physically compete with men.

[Citation really seriously needed]

 _Edit_ Haha, love the downvotes for asking for evidence for an
unsubstantiated claim.

~~~
luma
I think it might be because most everyone here understands that human sexual
dimorphism is a thing, and it's unrelated to personal politics. If you need
evidence, check literally every single track and field record on the books.
Show a counter example, and people here might be more willing to entertain
your snark.

~~~
EdwardDiego
You're literally commenting on a counter example.

~~~
luma
Read that again - I didn't say a single outcome in a single race, I said
records.

~~~
EdwardDiego
You said, "show a counter example". You really need to work on your phrasing
if you were referring to records.

~~~
luma
It's clear you're being intentionally intransigent here. If you're willing to
have a discussion about the facts, as opposed to your inability to comprehend
simple sentences, then I'm game. Otherwise, please take your axe and grind it
elsewhere.

~~~
EdwardDiego
My only axe is with people who make sweeping claims without evidence.

~~~
burneraccount12
Says the person who, when confronted with objective evidence that defeats his
argument, refuses to accept it.

Male elites do not run every single ultra race out there, obviously. Why
should they? A course record is not a world record, and there is not a single
world record a woman holds over a man in running at any distance, from 100
meters to 100 miles.

Your refusal to admit the obvious makes you seem like you're just trolling
people in this thread.

------
dejaime
Title should be "50K ultra organization failed to manufacture a 'male'
trophy.", clickbait 100

------
neilduncan
Fiona Kolbinger outright won the most recent Transcontinental bike race, in
Europe. 4000km from eastern Bulgaria to northwest France.

[https://www.transcontinental.cc/report](https://www.transcontinental.cc/report)

------
goatinaboat
I look forward to the day that gender is removed from the Olympics and the
football World Cup.

Not only will it be non-sexist it will half the cost of staging it letting
poorer countries do it too. A win for everyone.

~~~
ultrarunner
So back to countries only sending men, then?

------
fergie
There has been a theory going around for a while, supported by a growing body
of evidence, that women might actually be better at some endurance events than
men.

[https://www.google.com/search?client=ubuntu&channel=fs&q=wom...](https://www.google.com/search?client=ubuntu&channel=fs&q=women+better+at+marathons&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8)

EDIT: POTENTIALLY better obviously, not ACTUALLY better, since currently these
events are generally won by men.

~~~
jbob2000
Marathon/Ultra swimming is one where women do much better. Multiple theories
as to why; higher body fat and low bone density makes it easier to float,
bigger hips means more buoyancy towards the back of the body when swimming,
and/or higher pain tolerance. Men can't get anywhere close to the records that
women ultra swimmers set.

~~~
nailer
Confirming: there was an ultra marathon swimmer on Rogan a few months ago who
does various swims between the Hawaiian islands - he said the exact same
thing.

~~~
jbob2000
That's where I got this information! Great episode.

------
ARandomerDude
Sign of the times: I had to look at her picture to see if she was an actual
woman.

------
nsndnd
What's the length of the run?

50k could refer to 50km, yet, ultra usually refers to longer runs like 100km -
50 miles are 80km, so what would make more sense.

Judging by the time per mile they state in the article, it's 50km.

~~~
have_faith
Ultra refers to runs longer than a conventional marathon (42km~). 50km is
generally the starting point for the ultra distance though and 100km is a more
common benchmark.

------
seunosewa
I could not understand their reason for not having a best male trophy in the
future. Can someone who understood it explain it? Thanks.

~~~
djsumdog
It's just the way this particular competition was set up. Instead of male and
female, they added a top female award and kept the other one "overall."

~~~
twic
seunosewa is referring to these paragraphs:

> After the race, Hardy ordered a first place male trophy to be made for
> Ellsworth. When asked whether the race might offer first place male trophies
> in the future, Hardy said probably not. Instead of giving out more awards,
> he is more interested in awarding the top six finishers, regardless of
> gender.

> “It’s tricky, because in the world we live in now, people would think I was
> being sexist if I just gave out overall awards and didn’t have female-
> specific awards,” he said. “But I think a race is a race, and the best women
> can beat the men on a given day. And that’s awesome. Other times, they don’t
> make the podium. What we don’t want to do is water down the prestige of
> placing on the podium, no matter if you’re a man or woman.”

~~~
krzat
> people would think I was being sexist if I just gave out overall awards

So having female award is sexist and not having that award is also sexist.

------
growlist
The exception that proves the rule.

------
jonwinstanley
She didn't win the 'Male' trophy, she won the winner's trophy and the 'First
Female' trophy.

~~~
giancarlostoro
The whole article is confusing.

> Unfortunately, while there was an award made for the first place female,
> there was no award prepared for the first place male. Instead, there was
> only a trophy for the overall winner, which was predicted to be a man.

What the heck? This confusing logic is all throughout the article.

~~~
maaaats
The issue is that the man didn't get a trophy for winning his class. Most
times, that's the overall trophy, and then there's an additional one for the
fastest woman.

So the article is clear enough, I think, given that most runners know this
already.

Edit: I haven't commented on if I think this is a good thing or not, just
explaining the article.

~~~
gwd
There isn't, and shouldn't be a "male" class. There's a "human being" class,
and a "human beings without the testosterone gene" class. The only reason to
have the second class is because only half of the human population has the
"testosterone" gene (aka the Y chromosome), and the other half still like to
run. If you can win the "human being" class without needing the testosterone
gene, more power to you.

~~~
dragonwriter
> There's a "human being" class, and a "human beings without the testosterone
> gene" class. The only reason to have the second class is because only half
> of the human population has the "testosterone" gene (aka the Y chromosome),
> and the other half still like to run.

While it's always cute when people pretend that human sex is simple and things
only get complicated when gender identity is considered, chromosomes aren't
genes, the Y chromosome isn't the “testosterone gene”, XY females exist, XY
females with a normal copy of sex-determining region Y (SRY) exist, and, as
was discovered recently, XY females with a normal copy of SRY who have borne
children exist. Also XX females have testosterone at various levels.

It's true that recently was part of how to deal with the evolving
understanding of gender in the context of sport, a number of governing bodies
have redefined the criteria for competing as a woman to be based on a
combination of identity and serum testosterone levels, but that's also not
about a “testosterone gene” and at best imperfectly correlates with any
particular gene.

~~~
gwd
Of course I was using shorthand. The point wasn't to paint an accurate picture
of the biology of sex selection, but to point out the reason for having a
"women's" class: that, on the whole, men have biological advantages in
physical activities, and that for most sports, not having a women's class
would effectively mean excluding women from competitive versions of that sport
entirely. Obviously somewhat less so in ultramarathons than say, sprints or
weightlifting; and it's obviously more complicated when you're talking about
the top 50 people out of 7 billion, rather than the top 50 people out of a few
thousand, or even a few hundred thousand.

------
curiousgal
The writing is a bit confusing so here's a TL;DR:

Usually in these races, there are two trophies, one for _the overall winner_
and one for _the female winner_. This time, since a woman finished first
overall, she got both trophies.

~~~
satysin
I know it is a small thing but hopefully they change this going forward.

Having a 'special' female winner while assuming a male will be the 'real'
winner is implicit/transparent sexism to me.

~~~
eknkc
Well, they said no woman ever won this race so I guess it's a fair assumption
that the first place will be a male.

They probably added the female winner trophy to be more inclusive towards
women even.

The situation is kind of stupid but does not seem malicious to me, just
happened to be like this.

~~~
jacobush
Of course not _malicious_ , but not a little bit presumptuous. As you can see
from other commenters here it's apparently not unexpected that a woman might
win. The organizers if any, should have had a hunch this might happen, even if
it didn't happen before. Well, there were good laughs to be had anyway!

------
mrosett
This is a cool human interest story but I have no idea why it’s at the top of
HN. A random ultramarathon not planning for a woman winning just isn’t that
surprising or interesting.

~~~
onion2k
_This is a cool human interest story but I have no idea why it’s at the top of
HN._

HN readers upvoted it. That's literally all there is to something being on the
front page.

------
adrianN
That's a terrific achievement. It's extremely rare for women to have such good
endurance.

~~~
krstffr
Ultra running is actually one of few sports where men and women are quite
close, so I would not agree at all that it's "extremely rare for women to have
such good endurance".

EDIT: Added this link for some examples: [https://www.runnersworld.com/trail-
running/a20803612/why-wom...](https://www.runnersworld.com/trail-
running/a20803612/why-women-rule-ultrarunning/)

~~~
djsumdog
What makes Ultra running different? Women are still about 10k behind men for
the world record in the one hour circle track (cycling) and their records are
behind men in Olympic swimming (where they should have a considerable
advantage due to higher average buoyancy/fat cell density).

For most amateur sports, the numbers will be all over the place. But for pro
sports or things like marathons with huge number of participants, you're
getting the top of the curve. A pro-woman athlete could dominate most of us
average peeps (male and female), but when going against career athletes, we're
hitting the limits of how we happened to evolve.

Human males are still larger on average than women when it comes to muscle
mass, which is the driving factor for a lot of sports. There are mammals where
the females are larger than males on average. Somewhere in out universe, such
a species could be sentient like us. It's be curious to see how their own
culture of sports, societal roles and dominance evolved compared to our own.

edit: Should have read the link in the above article. Women's smaller average
size helps a lot on the downhills apparently.

~~~
rangibaby
> A pro-woman athlete could dominate most of us average peeps (male and
> female)

In most sports pro womens’ performance is achievable by trained amateur males,
which is why there is controversy around biological males competing as women

~~~
jefftk
_> In most sports pro womens’ performance is achievable by trained amateur
males_

The men's time for a standard marathon is 2:01, vs 2:15 for women. While I
wouldn't be surprised if most a lot of amateur men could get to ~3:00 with a
lot of work, 2:15 is extremely fast.

------
ptah
another 50 years and the myth of the stronger male will be gone

~~~
louisswiss
If that's true, it'll be because the word "strong" is redefined.

I'm genuinely undecided as to whether that's a good thing or not.

~~~
homonculus1
Why would it be?

~~~
louisswiss
Why would it be a good thing to redefine "strong"?

Or why do I think that's the most plausible explanation for an unlikely event?

------
EdwardDiego
Entirely unsurprised. There's various reasons why it could be so, e.g.,
[https://www.ft.com/content/0ead55ca-1d85-11e9-a46f-08f9738d6...](https://www.ft.com/content/0ead55ca-1d85-11e9-a46f-08f9738d6b2b)
or [https://time.com/5049887/women-fitter-than-
men/](https://time.com/5049887/women-fitter-than-men/)

What does surprise me though is that the expectation that the winner would be
a man.

