
Why Finnish babies sleep in cardboard boxes (2013) - stevekemp
http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-22751415
======
chrissnell
I love this, especially the inclusion of the book that helps new parents with
the basics. Becoming a parent is such an overwhelming avalanche of advice
(good and bad) and piles of crap. There is a massive industry dedicated to
preying on the paranoia and naïveté of new parents. With that first baby,
you're awash in a sea of ridiculous products like microwave baby bottle
sterilizers and electric bottle heaters. By the second or third month, you
come to realize just how worthless all of this junk is and you toss most of it
and go back to the basics--the basics that are included in the Finnish baby
box. How much easier it would have been if someone had handed us a box and a
book and said, "Everything you will need for the first three months is in
here."

~~~
djrogers
Everything you've said is true, however all you've done is given the state the
responsibility of deciding what part of the avalanche of advice is good and
what part is bad.

~~~
nxcho
People in the nordic countries including Finland have more trust in government
authorities and public administration compared to for example Americans. A
government agency given the task to given the task to produce some kind of
recommendation of best practices is expected to do so reasonably well.

~~~
jdavis703
Nordic countries are the size of American cities, or at least metropolitan
areas. I can tell you I have a lot more trust in the mayor and city council
than I do in the president and my senators (even though I voted for all of
them). If most government functions occurred at a more regional level I'm
pretty sure Americans would have more trust too. I think SF (for all its
problems) is doing a good job showing what can be done at a local level. It's
telling that at least in SF politicians are talking about fixing poverty,
while this discussion never really even comes up at the federal level,
especially this election season.

~~~
dsfyu404ed
That's a two way street.

There's huge parts of the country where government at every level is regarded
as corrupt and dysfunctional.

When a higher authority (fed > state > town > individual departments >
subgroup within a dept.) has to tell the offending institution to step in line
it's usually very welcome. People being screwed tend to place their trust in
the other parts of the government stack (the parts that haven't screwed them
yet).

~~~
adamsea
Agreed. Take Flint, Michigan for example.

------
stevekemp
Posted because we just received our 2016 box, and I thought it was fascinating
to see the contents as a Scottish man:

* [http://imgur.com/a/I0NYI](http://imgur.com/a/I0NYI)

~~~
agentgt
My wife and I our currently expecting and are about to have a baby shower.

For those unfamiliar with the shower concept here in the US we have a party
that is generally more expensive then if you were to just buy the baby stuff.
We invite people over and they give us stuff off a list that is at a few big
box stores.

Registering for the baby shower was my eye opener of what we are getting
ourselves into. I actually seriously wondered what we would do if we didn't
have friends, family and/or money. I had no clue where to start. I wasn't even
sure what car seat we needed (the baby store will tell you).

I have to say though I'm amazed by the quality of the cardboard box stuff.
Some of that stuff looks better than the stuff we registered for :).

~~~
cullenking
Oh man, just coming out of the dark times (it's hard for the first few
months), my little babyface is a bit over 6 months old. Everyone likes to
offer un-asked for advice, and I'm no exception, but sleep sleep sleep. Bank
it as much as possible before it's gone. Sleep dep is easily the worst part of
being a new parent, it makes your brain go funny and makes it hard to cope
with things. Be prepared to feel super depressed about your work performance
for the next six months. That one actually hit me hard - your brain is how you
do your job and your brain doesn't work properly for the first six months, so
it's incredibly demoralizing. Lots of rewarding things in there too, but man,
there's definitely a trough of sorrow you go through at the beginning!

~~~
eggy
On my third child, and my ex-wife, and my current wife or I have never had a
sleep issue. We made it a point to put them in bed with us from the get go. No
crib or sleeper. Breast fed, and we all slept fine with the occasional
sickness or hot day making sleep a bit difficult for everybody. The babies
tend to sleep better and wake less when they hear breathing and heartbeats
nearby is my guess. That and both of my wives were/are very adept at
breastfeeding in bed on their sides. I count myself lucky!

~~~
timtadh
It is very dangerous to sleep with your baby. I know that many people in many
cultures do sleep with their babies but you should not. There are several ways
it can result in the baby dying:

1\. You can suffocate the baby by breathing on their face while you are
asleep. The baby will not cry and will not wake while this is occurring.

2\. You can crush your baby by rolling on to them while you are asleep.

3\. Your baby can suffocate from their nose and mouth being covered by a
blanket or pillow or even the soft mattress if they are get rolled over.

These very sad infant deaths happen frequently even in the US where co-
sleeping is not as common as elsewhere in the world. Here are some recent news
articles: [http://www.nola.com/health/index.ssf/2016/04/co-
sleeping_dea...](http://www.nola.com/health/index.ssf/2016/04/co-
sleeping_deaths_st_tammany.html) , [http://woodtv.com/2015/06/05/mom-hopes-
babys-co-sleeping-dea...](http://woodtv.com/2015/06/05/mom-hopes-babys-co-
sleeping-death-warns-others/)

Co-sleeping advocates will tell you "as long as you do it safely you can sleep
with your newborn." This is false. There is no safe way to sleep with a
newborn. Newborns cannot turn their heads away if you breath on them. They
cannot move if you get too close. While, many parents sleep with their babies
and the babies do not die that does not mean that it is safe.

Update: The mayo-clinics prevention guide for SIDS:
[http://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/sudden-
infant-...](http://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/sudden-infant-death-
syndrome/basics/prevention/con-20020269) . TLDR; Newborn babies should sleep
by themselves on their back in a crib with no stuffed animals, pillows, or
"crib pads."

Another note: [http://thescientificparent.org/crib-notes-is-cosleeping-
real...](http://thescientificparent.org/crib-notes-is-cosleeping-really-
unsafe/)

~~~
ars
This simply isn't true for most people. If a normal person rolls over on
something they will feel it and wake up.

Do you typically fall off the bed? No? Why not? It's because you retain
awareness while you sleep.

People who should not cosleep include people on medications, extremely heavy
sleepers, sleepwalkers, and the very overweight.

For most people it's just fine. You go to sleep knowing "there is a baby here"
and you will be aware of that all night.

~~~
lfowles
>For most people it's just fine. You go to sleep knowing "there is a baby
here" and you will be aware of that all night.

Hmm. I go to sleep knowing "my wife is there" and I've still elbowed her in
the face countless times accidentally.

~~~
eggy
That's why I made the remark about drugs, alcohol or hypermobile sleepers. My
current wife, myself and my ex-wife never had an issue before babies, during
and after.

~~~
lfowles
It's actually not something I do while _asleep_, but when groggy. If I wake up
in the middle of the night and decide I want to sleep on my side now, my sense
of spatial awareness is pretty poor. I believe people can get by without
issues, just thought I would pop in with an amusing anecdote :)

------
pingec
If anyone else wondered why the Finnish baby box includes condoms:
[http://help.finnishbabybox.com/article/9-why-do-your-baby-
bo...](http://help.finnishbabybox.com/article/9-why-do-your-baby-boxes-come-
with-condoms)

~~~
arcanus
Well considered, if only to get folks to ask why they are included. Many do
not realize how quickly some women can get pregnant again after giving birth.

~~~
kchoudhu
Definitely guilty of not asking. Am currently awaiting birth of second child.

~~~
Declanomous
Forgive me if this is overly intrusive, but were you breastfeeding the child?
I was under the impression that you are extremely unlikely to get pregnant
whilst nursing.

~~~
smokey_the_bear
It is extremely unlikely that you will get pregnant again if your baby is
under 6 months, your period has not returned, you are exclusively
breastfeeding, and you do not go more than 6 hours between feedings. Once any
of those things changes, all bets are off.

I got pregnant with my second when my first was 9 months old, I was still
breastfeeding all the time.

~~~
NovaS1X
This is certainly one of the more useful nuggets of knowledge I've picked up
from HN. Thanks.

------
martinrame
I feel sad for reading this, here in Argentina until December 2015 we had a
similar state backed plan called Qunita. Now the new right-handed government
cancelled the plan without delivering 60k boxes and a judge is trying to burn
those arguing insecurity (but none of the 1000s of mothers who received them
found any glitch in the boxes).

Please read more (in spanish):
[http://www.infobae.com/politica/2016/09/14/bonadio-ordeno-
de...](http://www.infobae.com/politica/2016/09/14/bonadio-ordeno-
destruir-60-mil-cunas-del-plan-qunita-por-inseguras/)

~~~
polmuz
> I feel sad for reading this, here in Argentina until December 2015 we had a
> similar state backed plan called Qunita. Now the new right-handed government
> cancelled the plan without delivering 60k boxes and a judge is trying to
> burn those arguing insecurity (but none of the 1000s of mothers who received
> them found any glitch in the boxes).

How do you know that none of the mothers had a problem with them? Are there
any studies about this?

On the other hand there are three studies pointing that the box had problems
and it was considered unsafe (sharp edges, structure fails with weights under
9kg). [0]

Not to mention that one of the companies tasked to build it was just a small
real estate company that thanks to that government program increased their
revenue by 15.000.000% (in your face SV unicorns!!).[1]

[0] [http://www.lanacion.com.ar/1871615-plan-qunita-inseguros-
cun...](http://www.lanacion.com.ar/1871615-plan-qunita-inseguros-cunas)
(spanish) [1] [http://www.eliminandovariables.com/2015/06/el-kindergate-
y-e...](http://www.eliminandovariables.com/2015/06/el-kindergate-y-el-gran-
sueno-argentino_12.html) (spanish)

~~~
tutuca
It's funny that you quote that La Nacion article which is supposedly based on
an INTI study that states that the cribs are insecure for babies weighting
9kg+. While the plan is aimed at early stage babies and just the first few
months (-6m).

The same report also states that, according to the criteria used, the huge
majority of baby products in the segment are insecure.

------
scraft
I have seen this one before, but was happy to read through it again. I have
zero interest in having children, but think this is a great idea and would be
more than happy for my taxes to help pay for it. The thing is, if this did
exist in the UK (where I live), it feels like it would be the first thing to
be dropped at the next budget - feels like the only chance it would have of
existing in the UK would have been if it was introduced 25+ years ago :(

~~~
desas
You get a bag full of coupons and advertorials, perhaps a free sample like a
nappy in the UK instead. "Bounty bags" are the main ones.

------
Maarten88
> it's designed to give all children in Finland, no matter what background
> they're from, an equal start in life

So nice to read this! It's a pity that ideals like these are things from the
past, completely gone in our western, capitalist culture. Words like those now
mostly invoke feelings of cynicism and snarks about socialism or communism.

~~~
galonk
Finland is a western, capitalist culture. Most western, capitalist countries
have more compassionate cultures than the United States.

~~~
Maarten88
Do you think that, if this program had not been invented yet, that it could be
introduced now, by the current government, in Finland?

I'm from the Netherlands (supposedly more compassionate), and we have
something like this box. Only the program is run by a marketing data company
that wants to sell your data, and box is filled with low value goodies and
commercial offerings. The Finnish box is much nicer, as it seems offered with
the right intensions and the content is really helpful.

------
fao_
tl;dr: It's not because the cardboard boxes are significantly better than
cribs and other sleeping methods, it's the fact that the box comes with almost
everything a new parent needs to look after kids, which means they don't have
to shell out $foo-money to be able to take care of the children properly, and
aren't left worried that they left something out.

~~~
giarc
And also because the parents need to visit a doctor to get the box.

~~~
geon
That makes no sense.

How does the requirement to visit a doctor imply that the babies sleep in a
box?

Wouldn't they sleep there if the box was given out without a visit to the
doctor?

~~~
chrissnell
You would be surprised at how many babies are born in western countries
without prenatal care, simply because the mothers-to-be didn't know that it
was something that was available and needed. Encouraging new moms to visit the
doctor is a fantastic thing. Besides check-ups, it encourages vaccinations and
can help with early identification of congenital problems.

------
jbredeche
There's a company that sells a version of the Finnish baby box, and we got one
for our kid: [http://www.babyboxco.com/](http://www.babyboxco.com/) \-
everyone loved it. My wife is part Finnish, but we're in the US, so this was a
good approximation.

~~~
spiffyman
I have a question. Our first child is due this week, and we also got a box
from babyboxco. What did/do you use as sheets for the box's pad? We noticed
this week that the sheet that came with it is just a non-fitted one that fits
a regular-sized crib.

~~~
jbredeche
Congrats! I think we used a pack-and-play sheet, which was too big and we just
rolled the edges under.

------
eggy
I like the idea of all of the goodies, but as I have mentioned in another
reply, I am on my third child, and they have always slept in bed with us, so
the box and mattress is still weird for me. I have even slept with one of my
babies in a small bed for all three of us with no issue.

We have never owned a crib or bassinet by the bedside even.

I may be wrong, but I remember hearing it was during Victorian times that this
became popular.

I know there are people afraid of smothering or crushing their infants. Most
negative studies seem to come out of the US. Other countries don't seem to
have the same issues cited in US studies. I think it is common sense not to
sleep with your baby in bed if you have waterbed, or tons of pillows, a soft
mattress and a fluffy comforter.

My wife and I don't drink alcohol either, so no possibility of being so drunk
that we would be unaware of smothering our baby, and neither of us is
hypermobile in bed. All mammals keep their young close. The 'co-sleeping' is a
modern term that makes it sound out of the ordinary, but in fact it is very
ordinary.

People will say they slept better and the baby got used to being in another
room, or across the room, but I can say from three babies worth of fathering,
they get comfortable real quick being in bed with their parents.

~~~
zo1
Some people are very heavy sleepers and might not notice turning over onto
their infant.

Additionally, the other big reason that you're not supposed to have an infant
sleep in a normal bed is that they might roll off. It's fine I guess if both
parents are around and "box" the infant in, but otherwise it's quite possible
that the infant might toss over one too-many times and fall off the bed.

~~~
thedudemabry
We've occasionally brought our little dude into bed with us when he's going
nuts, but also know the potential consequences. It's not generally safe to
bring a child into an adult bed and I know without my spouse being super-
vigilant I might roll over onto him.

~~~
eggy
Yes, it takes two to parent in all things family! Congratulations on your
little one!

I didn't realize how much I would enjoy fatherhood until I became one.

------
keepper
<rant> Not directly related to the article, but reading thru the series of
negative replies when a poster suggests "hey, this is a great idea, we should
do it in the US", is disheartening.

A great deal are so fiscally short sighted, misguided, and downright hostile,
that it really takes away any hope for the "average American". HN demographic
should represent some of the best of the best of the US, and well... i guess
this kinda explain the rise of Trump. </rant>

~~~
titanomachy
Maybe the US is just too big and heterogeneous for this kind of thinking. I
mentally multiply the cost of the box by the 4 million babies born each year,
come up with some absurdly large number, feel overwhelmed by the need to pay
for so many people. Of course, the burden of that cost is shared across many
people as well, but the huge number has already asserted itself in my mind; I
can't help thinking what that billion dollars could buy for me and mine. I
can't help thinking how different from me are some of the people receiving my
hard-earned money. Never mind that those same people are providing the funding
when I have _my_ child.

Finland has ~50k babies born each year. Everyone speaks the same language, has
a shared cultural identity; each one of those 50k mothers could be your
neighbour, your sister. There is real empathy: the thought of depriving one of
those mothers is painful.

I don't know what the solution is. Smaller, more culturally homogeneous
states? I hope not. I like living amid diversity. Maybe we can build a
cultural identity that sees fellow citizens as kin instead of just greedy,
grabbing hands.

Or maybe I should just move to Finland.

~~~
keepper
I think no one really knows "the solution". Solutions for social issues are
ever changing. I think the knee jerk fear of change over what are minute
issues is the disheartening part.

This would be trivial to implement, but the ramifications could be great and
save a ton of down the road health care costs. Preventive care and all that
comes with it.

The US has 3-4M births per year. But ranks in the 70's for infant mortality.
It's is not a stretch to think the 300-400M spent for this, is a small
percentage of the medical costs that are saved... and if it doesn't, its not
the big waste it appears, and the naysayers seem to imply....

That was my point.

No need to blame multiculturalism, no need to start micromanaging the biggest
economy ( thats why costs seem large ), etc etc. Just simple cost/benefit that
too often is sidelined by knee-jerk "'MERICA!" thinking.

~~~
titanomachy
I think lack of trust of the government/experts is a big problem here. Leading
economists can say "this expensive program is a good investment and will
reduce costs in the long run", and people simply don't believe them or care.
Cutting costs seems to be the surest way to win votes.

------
NetStrikeForce
We had a baby a few months ago. We got so many clothes from friends and
family, some of it brand new, that our baby haven't had the chance to use it
all before outgrowing it.

We even got the pram, cot and car seats (plural!) for free. It's crazy.

Any clothing we bought was just because we liked it and not because we needed
it. Seriously, I don't know how is it in northern cultures, but where I come
from it is extremely common to get the clothes from your cousins (and pass
them on to the next :)), regardless of your money (unless you are rich, in
which case I don't know how it works :)).

I'm not sure if this is a Latin thing, Southern European thing, Mediterranean
thing or what :)

Edit: My point being: Corruption (as mentioned by others in different
countries) and the very strong family support networks in other cultures might
be the reason why this doesn't exist in other European countries.

------
oftenwrong
Last time I came across an article about this, I found out that there is a
company that sells a version of the "Finnish baby box".

[https://finnishbabybox.com/](https://finnishbabybox.com/)

~~~
Havoc
Wouldn't be surprised if the Finnish gov could make some decent money by
selling the real deal (at market rate).

------
_ph_
As millions of cats have shown, there is no better place to sleep than a
cardbord box :)

Joking aside, this looks like a fantastical practical approach to social
support. No complex and very expensive program, just a very practical "starter
set" for parents. It relieves both a possible financial burden and of course
makes sure, that nothing immediately important item isn't present at a time
when parents probably think about a lot of things but not shopping.

------
nkassis
As a way to bring something like this to the US. I wonder if something like
this could work as a similar model to Toms. Buy one give one away to a family
need.

~~~
stevekemp
There are private companies replicating the idea:

* [http://www.babyboxco.com/](http://www.babyboxco.com/)

* [http://britishbabybox.com/](http://britishbabybox.com/)

* [https://www.finnishbabybox.com/](https://www.finnishbabybox.com/)

Seems like if you had the right marketing and the right balance of items/price
it'd make a nice startup.

~~~
gmanis
I started a similar one for the Indian market but so far haven't had much
success.

~~~
stevekemp
If you have a website this would be the perfect thread in which to add a link!

------
jcoffland
We should try giving useful items to welfare recipients instead of just money.
It would be a great way to insure that the support was going to the right
things. Why not give kids a back to school kit? This could be huge for kids in
situations where no one will buy them the things they need for school. This
happens a lot more than most people know.

~~~
d_e_solomon
That's a pretty controversial statement. Many countries are experimenting with
purely cash based welfare instead of in-kind. See:
[http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2015/09/wel...](http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2015/09/welfare-
reform-direct-cash-poor/407236/)

------
pxeboot
They do give these out at some US hospitals:

[http://www.adn.com/alaska-news/health/2016/07/04/alaskas-
lar...](http://www.adn.com/alaska-news/health/2016/07/04/alaskas-largest-
maternity-center-begins-offering-free-baby-boxes-to-new-parents/)

------
toomanybeersies
The BBC did a follow up article on this recently:
[http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-35834370](http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-35834370)

Apparently spurned by the article, a few startups have appeared offering
similar boxes in other countries.

------
arcanus
If only the USA had a similar program!

~~~
KillerRAK
We can -- let's start with a population the size of Finland. The State of
Colorado has about the same # of people -- a great place to start! Think
critically before you toss out the old argument: The U.S. should do X, just
like Y; where X is the socialist program of choice and Y is a Nordic Country
of your choosing.

~~~
scarmig
Not sure if that applies here.

There isn't anything particularly hard to administer about sending a one-time
box to every parent who has a kid. It's not even collecting any new
information--everything needed is recorded during birth registration. Even the
potential for fraud is limited, because generating fraudulent SS numbers is
much more lucrative than cardboard box resale, and we already have systems in
place to limit that.

A county or state could easily implement this, with well-scoped resourcing
requirements and little chance of cost overruns.

~~~
rglovejoy
My worry about fraud isn't about the mothers, it's about the politicians and
suppliers who would run this program. Too many pockets getting in the way.

------
whafro
I got two of these when our son was born a couple years back, and they were
amazing. I posted a review and tons of photos:

[https://www.care.com/c/stories/580/a-year-with-the-
finnish-m...](https://www.care.com/c/stories/580/a-year-with-the-finnish-
maternity-box/)

Yes, we did use the box. Yes, we did use all the clothes, lotions, toys, etc.
In fact, our son basically wore nothing except eurogarb for his first year.

There are some commercial versions of this available in the US, though they're
relatively pricey. The fact that this is a public benefit in some places is
truly awesome, and something I wish could be politically tenable here in the
US.

------
riprowan
_Baby-box-industry lobbying intensifies_

------
dancek
You actually have the choice between the box or 140 euros, but not many people
take the money. We did, once.

If you have twins, you're allowed three boxes---if triplets, six. We had twins
so we opted for two boxes and the money.

------
monkpit
Build your own baby kit. (Just add baby)

------
penaman56
I've heard that Finns even have another box for dads as 'paternity package'
which complements the content of maternity package. But that is probably not
state sponsored: [https://www.instagram.com/p/BCj-
EgjHrhs/](https://www.instagram.com/p/BCj-EgjHrhs/)

------
penaman56
I've heard that Finns even have another box as a 'paternity package', which
complements the content of the maternity package. But I guess that is not
state sponsored: [https://www.instagram.com/p/BCj-
EgjHrhs/](https://www.instagram.com/p/BCj-EgjHrhs/)

------
Animats
France goes way beyond that.[1]

[1]
[http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=9211691...](http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=92116914)

------
DanBC
It's a great programme.

You might be interested in some of the comments here, from 3 years ago.
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5817728](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5817728)

------
vishalzone2002
Great idea. I think in US, we can build a warby parker model for this.

~~~
xufi
Same here, I actually read/watched a documentary about sleep that pointed they
do this a lot in Scandinavian countries (such as this article). Hopefully the
uS can find a solution like it

------
tzakrajs
That gear looks well designed.

~~~
stevekemp
It does.

I expected it to be a little cheap because most baby-stuff isn't going to be
useful for very long (the babies growing so quickly), but all of it felt
solid, and the designs are pretty great too.

~~~
wmt
The cloth diapers are also a nice touch! We ended up using mostly cloth
diapers until the baby started eating solid foods.

~~~
sevensor
We liked cloth too, but it's a lot of laundry. We switched to disposable for
the last child. I think it's more economical to use cloth diapers if you can
afford the extra time it takes to manage them.

------
ChoHag
Universal Baby Incubation will never work. Mothers will no longer buy anything
for their baby because sufficient is supplied by the state.

------
gdelfino01
In Venezuela the babies are being put in cardboard boxes too:
[http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3800058/The-
youngest...](http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3800058/The-youngest-
victims-economic-disaster-Babies-left-cardboard-boxes-cash-strapped-hospital-
Venezuela-country-spirals-financial-abyss.html)

~~~
ptaipale
These pictures are not "shocking". The babies sleep in boxes and seem to be
doing all right. If you have limited resources, you should put the money in
essential things. Proper food and medication is more important than having a
big fancy bed. The babies sleeping in these pictures appear to be fed and well
dressed.

But it is of course possible that in other respects, the Venezuelan baby care
is lacking due to corruption and mismanagement. I can imagine that the level
of care and attention given depends a lot on what kind of people you happen to
have in each place.

------
marknutter
I don't like how they correlate this cardboard box starter kit program to
Finland's low infant mortality rate. The claim that the U.S. has such a high
infant mortality rate compared to other industrialized nation has been
thoroughly debunked[1].

[1] - [http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/oct/3/editorial-
the...](http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/oct/3/editorial-the-
statistics-of-life/)

