
India announces plans for a Mars mission in 2013 - Jerpo
http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/india-announces-plans-for-a-mars-mission-in-2013.aspx?pageID=238&nID=27844&NewsCatID=374#.UCtnBISQa1I.twitter
======
plinkplonk
(Indian citizen fwiw)

As much as I like India and its space program, it is also true that these kind
of grand pronouncements happen from time to time and are not taken very
seriously here. And when the announced missions/projects do happen they are
_inevitably_ over budget and delayed.

E.g: cost of an unmanned _lunar_ probe in 2008 - US $ 90 million (source
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chandrayaan-1>)

costs for a lunar lander/rover, proposed for _2016_ (delayed from the original
plan for 2014) - projected cost - US $ 80 million. Note this is the
_projected_ cost (source <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chandrayaan-2>)

Thus, I'd be very very skeptical of a mars probe actually being launched in
2013 at the same amount of money as was spent on a lunar probe 4 years ago.

See how that $80 million keeps repeating? Must be the maximum budget you can
sell to a technically illiterate politician. ;-)

That said, I am all for India trying to explore space, with whatever
constraints. Eventually there will be a Mars probe and that is great.

~~~
ktizo
Chandrayaan-1 was a pretty successful mission by all accounts though despite
not lasting. It found evidence of water pretty much straight away, which was
worth the budget all on its own.

------
mayanksinghal
I am sorry but the attitude of half of this thread is simply disgusting; from
'haha' to you better provide food before creating space missions. I was just
as skeptical about the budget and our capabilities (Yes, I am an Indian - if
that wasn't obvious already) but I, even after having actually suffered from
poor infrastructure and have seen failed launches as well as people suffering
from hunger, support the cause wholeheartedly.

If you have a problem with how your government's aid money is being spent in
India, please go forward and lobby for the aid to get cut off. How we spend
our tax money is a decision that we should be allowed to make.

Honestly, I am surprised that HackerNews has the sentiment of pointing out
expenditures on science to be extravagant and unnecessary by using social
conditions as excuse, while there is so much more we could save by changing
our military, social or economic standpoints. US's military budget was
$663.84B in 2010 [1] while United Nations budget was just around $5.2B during
the same time [2] and it's not that United States is all free from hunger or
food insecurities [3]. So please, whichever country that you belong to will
have issues just like us. We probably have a lot more of those than you do,
but we have the right to decide which of those do we want to tackle now at the
expense of being behind in our long term goals. And I request you to keep your
preferences to yourself and stop forcing your morality/ethics/logic onto us in
such private matters.

    
    
      [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_budget_of_the_United_States 
      [2] http://www.un.org/en/hq/dm/pdfs/oppba/Regular%20Budget.pdf
      [3] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hunger#In_the_United_States

~~~
gadders
You have the right to determine how you spend your _own_ money. Whilst you are
still taking handouts from other nations, then it is not a private matter.

The US does spend a lot on their military, and they may have some very
deprived areas where people have less food than required (but I highly doubt
anyone in the US starves to death).

Likewise, though, the US doesn't have young girls whose job it it to collect
other peoples faeces with their bare hands [1]. I would say a country that has
that doesn't need a Mars mission.

[1]
[http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=o0vpXaPf_9AC&pg=PT62&...](http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=o0vpXaPf_9AC&pg=PT62&lpg=PT62&dq=dalit+girls+rose+george&source=bl&ots=LaJva0SDkZ&sig=J9aTmU9mmbzMD6ZPNUja5SkF03g&hl=en&sa=X&ei=1ZMrUOGDBuOi0QXZ7YG4Bw&ved=0CEwQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=dalit%20girls%20rose%20george&f=false)

~~~
ajays
As I walked out of the Van Ness MUNI station in San Francisco last night, I
walked by at least 20 homeless people, just lying on the street. A couple on
wheelchairs, the rest just lounging around. A few of them reeked of urine and
feces.

And this is in, arguably, one of the richest cities in America.

So while this situation (homelessness, mental patients going without care,
hunger), how dare the USA spend so much money on a Mars mission? On the
military? Heck, why does the City of SF spend so much money on America's Cup,
Outsidelands, etc. when thousands of people are homeless and on the streets?
Yes, you may say that the City spends money on them too; but then why are they
still on the streets?

Do you see my point? If you were to apply the same logic (or lack thereof)
that you're applying to India to any other country (even the US), you will get
the same answer: don't spend money on anything.

BTW: India is not "taking handouts" from other nations[1]. India is actually
_giving_ handouts to others; e.g., they've given billions in aid to
Afghanistan to aid in its re-construction.

[1] <http://www.vaughns-1-pagers.com/politics/us-foreign-aid.htm> couple of
100M doesn't qualify as a "handout" for a country the size of India. That's
like me donating $5 to Obama's campaign and then expecting him to have dinner
with me. WikiPedia link of top 25 countries; India does not feature in them:
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_foreign_aid>

~~~
w1ntermute
> As I walked out of the Van Ness MUNI station in San Francisco last night, I
> walked by at least 20 homeless people, just lying on the street. A couple on
> wheelchairs, the rest just lounging around. A few of them reeked of urine
> and feces.

> And this is in, arguably, one of the richest cities in America.

You're conveniently ignoring several points. First of all, San Francisco draws
homeless from all over the nation because it (a) has good weather year round
and (b) is quite liberal and will tolerate and help the homeless. Unlike
India, in much of the US, being homeless during the winter means that you will
quite literally freeze to death. So the homeless tend to congregate in places
where the weather is favorable for outdoor living year round. The fact that
San Francisco is rich is a result of Silicon Valley, which developed where it
has because of the proximity of the Stanford campus. So the two issues are not
exactly connected.

More importantly, attempts to help the homeless on the streets of SF have been
made over and over (and are ongoing). Many of these people _refuse_ to leave
the streets. Some of them even enjoy it. Many others suffer from mental
disorders, but we can't force them to live in asylums (which was the case
until the 1980s) - that would be inhumane, or so the argument goes.

As for India, its level of poverty is so staggering that any comparison to
America or another first world nation is entirely pointless. Let's see what
UNICEF has to say about child malnutrition, for example[0]:

> Malnutrition is more common in India than in Sub-Saharan Africa. One in
> every three malnourished children in the world lives in India.

So India has worse child malnutrition than even _Africa_. How you can even
begin to compare this to some bums on the street in SF is entirely beyond me.

0: <http://www.unicef.org/india/children_2356.htm>

~~~
ajays
My point was: the OP took one negative fact ("young girls carry feces") and
proceeded to paint the whole country of 1.2Billion with that. That game can be
played by pointing out the homeless in SF too. See how silly it looks?

~~~
w1ntermute
The OP was wrong in using manual scavenging as an example of a lack of
economic progress, when it is actually an example of a lack of social
progress, as I mentioned in a reply to him[0].

However, I don't believe that the homeless problem in SF can be compared to
the manual scavenging problem either, because of the difference in terms of
degree of severity. One is the result of millenia of systematic oppression,
while the other is the result of people refusing to get help for themselves
even when it is offered for free. Caste-based discrimination is a much bigger
problem than homelessness is in India. If you don't believe me, you should
watch the video linked in my other comment[0] - caste-based discrimination is
much more widespread than most upper class Indians know or are willing to
admit.

However, none of that changes the fact that economic progress is also sorely
needed in India. The sort of progress that lifted hundreds of millions of
people out of poverty in China and educated them hasn't even begun to start in
India.

The reason why it appears like India is doing so well is because if only 5% of
the Indian population is well-educated and contributes significantly to the
global economy, that's 60 million people - the size of a large European
nation. So when (by my estimates) ~10% of the Indian population does so (as it
has over the last 10-20 years), it creates huge ripple effects in the global
economy. And Westerners especially notice when it occurs in service-based
industries that they have direct contact with.

But that doesn't change the fact that hundreds of millions of Indians are
impoverished and suffering from conditions worse than those in sub-Saharan
Africa. When it comes to social development, the only parts of the world
behind India are those that have been or continue to be torn apart by war.
It's particularly damning when you consider that India's independence was
achieved with relatively little bloodshed and that it hasn't had any military
coups or dictatorships since independence. Compare this to the likes of
countries like Germany, Japan, and South Korea, which rose from the ashes
following WW2 and the Korean War to become first world nations. China suffered
from enormous devastaion during the Cultural Revolution and the Great Leap
Forward, and yet it has made huge strides over the last 20 years and continues
to do so unabatedly with each passing year.

0: <http://hackerne.ws/item?id=4386845>

~~~
ajays
"One is the result of millenia of systematic oppression, while the other is
the result of people refusing to get help for themselves even when it is
offered for free. "

Have you wondered why so many of the homeless are people of color?

I used to live in upstate New York. By chance I happened to venture into a
local reservation. I was shocked to see the conditions they were living in;
especially given the fact that the area gets pretty darn cold in the winter.

Both of these groups (blacks, as well as native Americans) have been the
victims of discrimination for centuries.

But people don't waive this fact all over HN any time the topic of NASA comes
up.

~~~
w1ntermute
I don't deny that blacks and Native Americans have been treated poorly, and
that they still face discrimination. However, that doesn't change the fact
that those people you see on the street are there because _they refuse the
help they are given_.

San Francisco is one of the most liberal cities in the country. There are
dozens of upper middle class yuppies _pleading_ with the homeless to accept
their help.

> By chance I happened to venture into a local reservation. I was shocked to
> see the conditions they were living in; especially given the fact that the
> area gets pretty darn cold in the winter.

Native American reservations are, by their own choice, given a high level of
autonomy by the US government. Once again, these people have made a conscious
decision to reject help given them. Every single one of these people has
chosen to live on a reservation when they could benefit from everything that
modern America has to offer. Now, I can see that on a macro level, what the
immigrants did to the Native Americans must seem horribly unjust, and
therefore their descendants don't exactly want to accept the US government's
help. However, on an individual level, these are individuals who have a clear
path to bettering their lives that they simply refuse.

This is incomparable to the systematic suppression of millions upon millions
of people that occurs to this very day, both on a macro and micro level, in
India.

~~~
ajays
You are really clueless, aren't you? The problems that you see on reservations
are the _direct result_ of centuries of oppression. It may look different to
you than the situation in India, most likely because you're probably white and
male, and hence belong to the side that's been oppressing; but the situation
is the same. Systemic denial of equal rights, denial of services, forced
segregation from the rest of the society .... fundamentally, it's the same.

You may disagree, and I don't blame you; but having lived in India and the US
for equal parts of my life, I see the same patterns.

~~~
w1ntermute
You're the one who seems to still be incapable of understanding what I'm
saying. _I don't deny that discrimination has occurred in US._ I never have.

The difference is that significant steps have been taken to combat
discrimination in America, whereas there is a general apathy towards that in
India (and most of the developing world). Trying to equate the two is
completely nonsensical, as is trying to equate the level of poverty in
America, even on a reservation, with that in India.

> having lived in India and the US for equal parts of my life, I see the same
> patterns.

As an Indian who has managed to make it to America, I don't think you're in
any place to comment on what life is like for poor Indians, particularly those
facing endemic caste-based discrimination. Their experiences are completely
foreign to you, just as I wouldn't claim that I understand what African
Americans or Native Americans go through.

------
antr
"$82 million" mission? That budget doesn't even cover the fuel cost for a
rover. Production of Pu-238 for the rover has been estimated at over $90
million, this does not include planning and starting costs.

Add to that the fuel for the launch vehicle; and fuel for the the cruise
stage.

I can't trust this article.

~~~
hsuresh
I am surprised that it costs lesser than India's unmanned moon mission
(<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chandrayaan-1>).

If ISRO can pull it off for under $100 million, that would be quite an
achievement. Given the recent commercial interests in space, there might even
be an opportunity to become financially independent by offering services for
others.

~~~
mayanksinghal
Indian organisations are notorious in having extremely low estimates that
later blow up to 4-5 times. So while I have more trust in ISRO (Indian Space
Research Organization), their numbers might be off by a factor.

~~~
biggfoot
The same is true for many other space missions, and quite frankly doesn't
matter.

For example, check the projections on the James Webb space telescope and see
for yourself how the costs doubled and tripled. IMO we shouldn't look at it in
terms of those costs; even if double and tripled they are not that high. Look
at their effect on the larger picture.

------
yumraj
Anyone who thinks India doesn't need a Mars mission, please raise your hands
up.

Done, good. Now you've given your opinion. Please sit down and shut the F up.

Whatever I write would pail in comparison to a thread posted a few days
earlier:

Link: [http://launiusr.wordpress.com/2012/02/08/why-explore-
space-a...](http://launiusr.wordpress.com/2012/02/08/why-explore-
space-a-1970-letter-to-a-nun-in-africa/)

HN discussion: <http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4372563>

~~~
Eduardo3rd
I'm pretty shocked that HN wouldn't be in favor of any and all efforts to
advance the space race. Everyone (deservedly) showers praise on Elon Musk
whenever SpaceX has a successful launch, but when India wants to push the
envelope the response is totally opposite.

Some awesome stuff has come from reaching for big goals with a constrained set
of resources in the past. I'm looking forward to seeing what kind of jugaad
innovations the Indians can bring to the table in the aerospace sector.

------
svasan
India has achieved quite a bit with its space exploration. It is the same
space programme that has provided Indians with satellites that are applied to
agriculture. The IRS-P6 Resourcesat has been deployed for studying cropping
patterns [1]. I am sure other satellites have been used for various other
agricultural applications. Frankly this "feed the poor first" meme of the
western media [and some disillusioned folks] is quite irritating. The meme
only goes to show that the western media does not really appreciate
achievement from a "developing country".

When India was on its way to launch its first rocket [way back when], some
parts of the rocket were carried by the ISRO scientists pillion riding on a
bicycle. Time magazine, in true western style, ridiculed that inicident.
(Unfortunately I am not able to find references for this. So recounting from
memory here.) Now after the moon shot with Chandrayaan-1, we know who had the
last laugh.

However, on this particular occasion, I think this announcement is a populist
one. The Central Government has nothing to show in terms of achievement. The
government's image is severely tattered, what with all the corruption charges,
policy paralysis, lack of any real economic progress, etc. Nothing like
whipping up some nationalism to distract the people from noticing the lack of
government performance.

Without the political context, I am guessing this Mars mission might provide
scientists with 1) Insights on developing long range space travel 2) Insights
into instrumentation technology 3) Robotics related tech

And India has had collaborative associations with several space agencies from
different countries. It is only adding to the already existing space related
body of knowledge.

All the disillusioned folks who think they are entitled to dictate policy
decisions on account of their country giving "handouts" to India, feel free to
take a hike.

[1] <http://dl.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=2025000>

------
rrrazdan
If 80 million sounds too less for this mission, let us assume it balloons to
500 million. Even then look at the benefits it would bring. Make talented
engineers/scientists stay in India and not migrate to places where 'more
interesting' stuff is done. Check. Inspire a whole generation of people to
take up science and engineering and to dream of thinking big, and actually
have the confidence of knowing their dreams can come true. Check. Assorted
scientific/industrial/capacity creation benefits. Check. All this at the
miserly sum of 0.025 percent of your GDP. I think it is a very wise
investment.

------
capex
For those wondering why India doesn't first feed its citizens, here is a
relevant post: [http://launiusr.wordpress.com/2012/02/08/why-explore-
space-a...](http://launiusr.wordpress.com/2012/02/08/why-explore-
space-a-1970-letter-to-a-nun-in-africa/)

~~~
kranner
I don't buy it.

India is struggling with implementing solutions to issues that appear to be
more-or-less solved for other countries; such as a working road network,
public transport in most cities, picking up and distributing food harvests and
a 24-hour supply of electricity. If a mission to Mars might provide
fundamental insights into solving such issues, other countries seem not to
have needed them.

Added later: I don't believe this mission to Mars has nothing to do with good
old South Asian jingoism, and outdoing the geographical neighbour I shall not
name.

~~~
biggfoot
So we should drop everything and focus on that alone?

We are also struggling with a massive brain drain. Such missions are going to
inspire an entire generation and maybe create a sense of satisfaction and
achievement. I, for one, do not doubt the importance of those in nation
building.

Extrapolating from the words of Dr N D Tyson, the total spending on such space
missions is not as high as we may think it is. India's GDP is good enough to
not look at a space mission with a jaundiced eye.

~~~
kranner
> drop everything and focus on that alone?

Strawman. I'm not suggesting dropping _everything_. I'm only opining that a
mission to Mars should be of lower priority than fulfilling basic
infrastructure needs, which may be a source of satisfaction to a larger chunk
of the population than the much smaller elite that can actually understand
what a mission to Mars is all about.

~~~
vidarh
Maybe. But consider the cost here is comparable to building anything up to at
most a few tens of miles of decent quality highway. It's a tiny investment to
start with.

And this money does not magically dissipate - a lot of it effectively
functions as subsidies to create high-tech jobs in the country, and a decent
chunk of it will find its way back into government coffers as tax.

Demonstrating the ability to send probes to Mars could also do wonders for
Indian companies that wants to compete for international satellite launch
business, for example.

It could be a waste, but it could also very well turn out to have a good
enough ROI to increase the amount of cash available for basic infrastructure
needs.

~~~
option_greek
Good point. I don't understand the anti space exploration crowd's argument of
putting poverty before space. It's not like they are bundling 80 million
dollars into a hollow spaceship and dumping it off on mars.

------
anuraj
While India is one of the poorest countries on the planet, and spends less
than 1% of GDP on science and technology, India also produces largest number
of engineers and a large number of science graduates every year. The country
has more than 3million employed in IT jobs (not callcenter/BPO). India's space
program is quite developed and ISRO's track record is not too bad. And yes,
India produces more than enough food to feed its populace and more. The issue
is one of primtive distribution chains, bureaucratic apathy and corruption.
Foreign aid do not address these issues and is very meagre compared to India's
GDP and government spending power. India needs to reform from within and that
is a cultural journey.

------
gadders
I'm so glad the UK government gives them millions of dollars in aid every
year. FFS.

~~~
jcbrand
"Pranab Mukherjee and other Indian ministers tried to terminate Britain’s aid
to their booming country last year - but relented after the British begged
them to keep taking the money..."

[http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/india/9061844...](http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/india/9061844/India-
tells-Britain-We-dont-want-your-aid.html)

~~~
metatronscube
Yeah they could at least distribute that money to the super poor, instead of
turning round and smugly saying how its peanuts and they don't need it. There
are folk there who would kill for a peanut to line their
bellies.....literally!

~~~
biggfoot
You are confusing the two issues. India is capable of feeding its poor. The
bureaucracy are too damn apathetic and corrupt to bring that into effect.

But why should the ones who want to make a difference be subject to criticism
that they don't deserve?

~~~
metatronscube
So building a launch system capable of landing a rover on Mars is the answer
then? Its hard to confuse the point im attempting to make. I will make it
clear. They should concentrate on their own populating, Government and
infrastructure before they even consider attempting something like this,
because in the end, who is actually going to benefit from it?

A Government with these problems should be considered criminal when they cant
actually provide their population with the basics.

[https://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/08/business/global/a-failed-...](https://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/08/business/global/a-failed-
food-system-in-india-prompts-an-intense-review.html?_r=1)

~~~
sateesh
I don't think there is any confusion in point you are making. The fact is the
money that has been earmarked for this venture (even you account for any cost
overruns) is a meager amount to what India already earmarks to spend (spends)
on infrastructure, education, health etc. For example the budgetary allocation
in current year for Rural Infrastructure is ~ 13 billion USD, Education is ~ 6
billion USD [1].

The sad fact is that even though India spends large sums to address the social
problems, due to endemic corruption the results are far less spectacular.
Spending money on ventures like space exploration doesn't really come in the
way of addressing the social problems we have.

1\. <http://indiabudget.nic.in/ub2012-13/bh/bh1.pdf>

~~~
ballooney
My opinion on this general debate is neither here not there but I must call
you up on your assertion that India is spending a lot on its population:

> For example the budgetary allocation in current year for Rural
> Infrastructure is ~ 13 billion USD, Education is ~ 6 billion USD [1].

That's really not a lot! The UK spends about 150 billion USD on education each
year, which is about 2300USD per capita. Dividing 6bn by the population of
india at 1.2bn, that's 5USD per capita.

That is to say, the UK spends 460x as much per person on education as India.
And people would say the UK can't afford a Mars mission at the moment!

~~~
biggfoot
I can't argue with that number much, nor provide any real defense in India's
favor, but do consider that the cost of living and labor in India is far far
lesser than in the UK.

Returning to my earlier argument, this isn't about any sacrificial costs.
There is enough budget for everything including infrastructure development and
a space mission as far as the Indian budget is concerned. The problems at the
grassroot are not due to lack of spending power but corruption and broken
implementation practices.

------
spitx
Corroborated. <http://www.thehindu.com/sci-tech/science/article3775271.ece>

------
owaislone
haha

~~~
metatronscube
Yeah that was my initial reaction as well, I just don't see it happening at
all. I mean, we have to be serious here, they are going to put a Rover or
something on Mars for $80 Million?!.......Nah.

I'm not saying that's they wont EVER, but they have to join us on planet earth
before they start dreaming of other planets.

~~~
owaislone
Yeah. How about providing electricity to villages and providing
actual+reliable broadband connectivity to the country. People die of hunger
and cold in India.

~~~
spitx
Well. That never stopped them from turning nuclear - more than a decade ago -
in the face of international sanctions.

~~~
owaislone
I'm not saying they won't be able to do it or something like that. I'm just
saying they just need to raise the standard of basic human living first and
then start glorious missions like this. The problem with India is that it's a
hollow vessel. They pretend to be glorious to the rest of the world but
actually they can't even solve the most basic human needs. So much poverty,
Homelessness, Electricity, Roads, Communication, Health Care, Education, Human
Rights. Almost everything is fucked up in this country except "Bollywood"..
(well the movies are actually more fucked up than anything else but at least
bollywood is a financial success ;)

FWIW, I'm from India.. sort of.

