
Ask HN: Where does one find true entry level development jobs? - mcgrath_sh
I have several languages that I have either used infrequently in personal projects or have leared in classes over a couple of semesters. I want to find an entry level or junior level development job, but all of the ones I run across seem to want significantly more experience than I have. I am particularly interested in COBOL, but every &quot;junior&quot; job there wants 5+ years of experience. I am a quick learner when I get into the language on a day to day basis, but I have rarely used a single language for longer than 6 months at a time on an entry level basis.<p>Can anyone recommend any particular job boards or tips for filtering for true entry level jobs? Thanks!
======
tchaffee
> every "junior" job there wants 5+ years of experience.

That sentence is the important clue you need. If you are still a junior
programmer after 5+ years experience, there is probably something wrong. You
should mostly ignore the job requirements in terms of the years of experience
they want.

There are even plenty of inside jokes around this. Jobs asking for 10 years
javascript experience a couple of years after javascript was released!

Either they are looking for a senior programmer and are hoping to pay junior
programmer rates (possible) or they are just putting their list of ideal
requirements (more likely).

Sometimes the requirements aren't even written by IT staff, HR writes the
requirements, and HR doesn't have a clue about IT.

Unfortunately, this means that it's very difficult to filter for "true" entry
level jobs.

Applying to jobs is mostly a numbers game. Unless the job makes it clear that
you need to be a senior developer, or a team lead, then just apply. Before
traveling to an interview, see if you can set up an initial phone interview.
If the interviewer doesn't do a great job of screening you, ask questions
yourself to try to understand your responsibilities better. Will you be
working under a senior programmer? That's a good sign that they aren't looking
for someone who can work 100% independently and that they are willing to
mentor you.

~~~
ouid
I suspect they are encouraging people to lie on their applications, which
gives companies a defense to any sort of fired for cause lawsuit.

~~~
tchaffee
Really? That sounds a little paranoid. I always just tell the truth on the
interview and application. "You asked for 5+ years experience, but I only have
6 months. I'm willing to learn if you are willing to train me".

~~~
ouid
How is that paranoid? You think there is a perfectly reasonable explanation
for asking for more experience with a technology than is physically possible?

~~~
striking
"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity"

~~~
crypticlizard
It's not malice, it's business and legal acumen.

~~~
tchaffee
If that's what the legal department recommended to me as a business owner to
add in protections for being able to fire employees, I would fire the legal
department.

How many applicants will be inspired to lie because of my absurd requirement
on the job spec? Of those applicants, how many will I hire? Do I only hire
applicants who have lied in order to be protected so I can later fire them? I
wouldn't hire someone who lied on their application in the first place!

I've never had a legal department recommend something so silly as this, and I
challenge you to find one that does. If you want certain protections for the
company in an employment agreement, you put them in a contract.

------
williamdclt
That's probably not the answer you want, but do not hesitate to apply to jobs
that ask for 0-5 years of experience, it's very often a nice to have and not a
requirement. Worst case scenario is, they don't contact you (which will not
happen either if you don't contact them ;) )

Your choice of COBOL is both strange (it's an old language that's not used for
any new stuff) and potentially playing against you. Company looking for COBOL
devs are often banks or big companies having huge critical systems that
they're afraid to update to a more recent language. Thus, they may be looking
for someone with some experience, considering how critical those softwares
are. But that doesn't mean you shouldn't apply, I may totally be wrong or you
may find something anyway!

~~~
jamesmp98
The guy probably wants those fat stacks that come with COBOL, but I agree,
there are not gonna be any entry level COBOL positions.

------
seiferteric
My experience is probably not typical, but I had an EE degree and more of a
self taught programming background. When I graduated in 2009 the job market
was pretty bad but took a job doing support for a telecom company. Within a
few months I found a lot of what they were doing could be automated so I
started writing scripts. Very quickly this became my full time job. I later
leveraged that to get a more "normal" software dev position at another
company, although sometimes I miss that job because I don't think I have ever
written software since then that felt as directly impactful (saving many hours
and $) lol. Also, COBOL is a very unusual language to be perusing in this day
in age, but you might find something in sustaining type roles at big corps and
government. I would think they would actually be quite eager to find new hires
that were actually interested in maintaining old COBOL but I don't know.

------
tyrilean
Apply for jobs that it doesn't seem you qualify for. True entry level jobs in
development know that the people that are coming straight out of school are
going to require training/mentoring (hence the lower pay).

There are jobs out there that are looking for mid to senior level developers,
but don't want to pay their prices, so they post entry/junior level jobs with
mid/senior requirements. Screw those jobs.

Further, still, you have some jobs that are trying to do the aforementioned
with the intent that no one applies, and they can use the evidence to justify
an H1-B visa.

Even further, still, you have those jobs that are posted by recruiters that
are at least two levels removed from any person with expertise in the field,
so they don't know what the hell they're doing.

------
CoachRufus87
The public sector. I got my first dev job at the local state university. They
pay less than the private sector, thus making it harder for them to find solid
talent. Put in a few years, and then jump ship once you've accumulated the
requisite experience to no-longer be entry-level.

~~~
inostia
Second this. Universities are a great place to find junior dev work as
competition is relatively low compared with higher paying industries.

I started off at an extremely low salary in my first job at a UC and doubled
my salary in two years (though I still work in higher-ed and like it).

------
john_moscow
Just a curiosity question: why COBOL? Since it's not mainstream anymore, this
makes the process of finding a job way more complicated. As a person who has
never programmed in it I'm simply curious what makes it worth all the extra
trouble?

~~~
mcgrath_sh
I am open to any language I have a base in, but to explain my COBOL desires...
I took two semesters of it in grad school. I just really enjoyed the language.
It made a lot of sense to me, was straightforward in its output, and was
structured in a manner that I found worked with my thought process. There are
jobs in my area for COBOL, but even the entry level ones seem like they want 5
years of experience every z/OS feature.

~~~
santaclaus
Out of curiosity what Uni is currently teaching COBOL?

~~~
mcgrath_sh
RMU in Pittsburgh has a very close working relationship with IBM. They also
offer z/OS and DB2 courses.

------
DenisM
People who write job ads often times don't know much about the jobs, hence the
keyword soup and outlandish timelines. You will do well to reach to hiring
managers directly, making sure to explain why. I scan those emails for about
15 seconds each, most get discarded because the applicant couldn't be bothered
to explain what attracted them to our company and how they are going to
contribute. The latter part is most important, and can easily land you an
interview.

~~~
mcgrath_sh
So if, for example, you were hiring for a developer in Java and I sent an
email essentially saying: "I did this language in school. I haven't done much
of it in my current internship, but here is one of my last projects. I liked
the language due to X, Y, Z reasons and am interested in the job for ABC. I
apply myself when learning, and quickly pick things up. I can put you in touch
with the professor who taught me the language to confirm that."

I may have a chance at an interview even if my credentials are well/mostly
short of the posted job? I interview rather well when I do get a chance. I
just don't want to spend time banging my head against the wrong wall.

~~~
DenisM
We don't hire for language skills, so this will do nothing to persuade me. I
am a lot more interested in someone who can _own a problem_ and drive it to
conclusion. Coding is part of it, obviously, but only one of many.

------
wodenokoto
Most jobs will list a bunch of bullet points as requirements.

If you can check off more than half, consider yourself well qualified.

Even things like "never programmed in swift, but have read some code examples,
and understands the basic principles" can be enough check off "swift
programming experience", especially if you already have mobile development
experience from school or personal projects.

------
Nelkins
I have no formal academic credential in CS. I got my first job as a programmer
off of Craigslist, and I recommend taking a look to everyone who is having
trouble finding an entry level position. People/companies advertising there
typically don't care too much about pedigree (this should not surprise, given
the branding of Craigslist), and also usually aren't looking for rocket
scientists.

I agree with the advice others have given re: years of experience: it's rarely
a hard requirement.

Take a look at this list of software jobs for NYC[1]. I see three or four
entry level positions just on the first page.

[1]
[https://newyork.craigslist.org/search/sof](https://newyork.craigslist.org/search/sof)

~~~
Nelkins
I'll add one more thing. Very few of the jobs on Craigslist are "sexy." Ignore
the sexy jobs. Once you get your foot in the door, your options expand
enormously. The adage "no one cares about your grades after your first job"
holds fairly well, especially in this industry. I got that first Craigslist
job in the summer of 2013, and was only there for five months (it was a
horrible, toxic work environment). I now make more than 5x what I made at that
first job. Whatever first job you take doesn't have to define the rest of your
career.

~~~
RUG3Y
I second this. Get some practical experience before trying for the "sexy" job.

------
lief79
Not sure when the next one will be, but AFS
[http://www.afsvision.com/Careers/Career-
Opportunities](http://www.afsvision.com/Careers/Career-Opportunities)
sporadically holds a Cobol training academy, where they pay individuals to
learn Cobol for a few weeks, and generally hire a majority of them.

The exton, PA location is also close to Lancaster PA, so rural living is an
option. I only use webservices with that group, so our corporate recruiter
would probably have a better idea of what's available.

------
khedoros1
In 2008, I went to SCALE, which is a Southern Californian Linux/Open Software
expo. I met someone from a large company that pays finding fees to people that
bring in new talent; he was there hoping to make a couple bucks.

From that, I've got two suggestions. First, go to expos, meet-ups, etc. They
sometimes have mini job fairs, or at least people that know about some open
positions. Second, find someone that will advocate for you to be hired (greed
and friendship are both good motives for that).

------
jdavis703
I was able to patch together around 2 years of paid development experience by
the time I graduated college from various internships. I think it helped a lot
in getting my first "real" position. If you're still in school I strongly
recommend taking this route as entry level positions themselves are pretty
hard to find.

------
c0nfused
In my, outside of the valley experience, getting jobs is usually about talking
to someone you know who know some one who knows someone. The sites where you
spam your resume unannounced into a hiring inbox are not generally a high
percent choice.

Do you have any local connections? The local development shops usually know a
guy who knows a guy who has a start up who is hiring a few people. Typically,
if you can find your way into a few local conferences, maker spaces, or
gatherings generally there are a few companies who are hiring someone.

In a university setting, you are looking for professors who have some money to
throw around of a one off project or know someone else who does. Think
internships here. Typically colleges have a jobs/employment office
specifically designed to find you jobs/coops/internships they are an excellent
resource.

------
jldugger
Universities usually have plenty of student developer jobs, if you know how /
when to look.

------
johan_larson
Is there a college near you? They often have career fairs where employers are
looking to hire entry-level employees. It may take some digging to find these
fairs, because they often aren't advertised off-campus.

------
salehk
networking events. (meetups & hackathons)

------
tboyd47
Usually around colleges and in large cities.

