
On Thomas Hobbes and Leviathan - submeta
https://amp.theguardian.com/books/2017/nov/20/the-100-best-nonfiction-books-no-94-leviathan-thomas-hobbes-1651
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scarecrowbob
Kind of tangental, but I've started this history of civilization that was
recommended to me by some anarchist friends and which frames the parts I've
read in terms of that Leviathan. So far it's been interesting if not super
convincing:

[https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/fredy-perlman-
agains...](https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/fredy-perlman-against-his-
story-against-leviathan.pdf)

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hyperion2010
If Syria has taught is anything I hope it is that Hobbes is right -- however
bad you think your current government is, civil war or revolution is worse.

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brudgers
The American Civil War suggests the opposite may be true when the "your" in
"your government" starts to become unpacked. "All civil wars are bad" produces
logical contradictions such as both the rise and the fall of the Soviet Union
were bad.

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jabretti
The US Civil War killed 620,000 people, and ruined the lives of many others.
That's pretty freaking bad. On the upside, it freed about 3.9 million slaves,
but really there should have been a less costly political solution to the
slavery problem, as was found in every other country in the Americas at around
the same time.

>"All civil wars are bad" produces logical contradictions such as both the
rise and the fall of the Soviet Union were bad.

The fall of the Soviet Union didn't occasion a Civil War.

~~~
brudgers
Keeping in mind that this is a _philosophical_ counter example regarding
Hobbesian political philosophy. See,
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1993_Russian_constitutional_cr...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1993_Russian_constitutional_crisis)

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weeksie
Off-topic, tangental, but related. In a fit of sheer political science nerdery
I got the Sovereign from the cover of Leviathan tattooed on my shoulder. Been
wanting it for years but finally got it done a couple weeks ago.

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pmyteh
It's a fascinating book, though the social contract theory that has been built
on it is quite problematic.

Coincidentally, this week's instalment of Existential Comics features Hobbes,
and is both funny and incisive:

[http://existentialcomics.com/comic/211](http://existentialcomics.com/comic/211)

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accordionclown
i've noticed that, whenever an adult enters the picture, hobbes turns from a
bundle of energy into a paper tiger.

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rrggrr
What is this doing on HN you may ask? I'm not the OP, but the Leviathan was a
study on power and trade-offs. Hobbes would have been aghast at the largely
unchecked power Facebook, Google, etc. hold. The absence of any social
contract, one that is otherwise present between the individual and government,
means these multinational corporations are free to (very effectively) compete
with Governments for power, with little upside for the individual & society.

~~~
brudgers
The Hobbesian sovereign has only one source of authority, keeping the peace.
To the degree multi-nationals keep the peace they have legitimate claims to
Hobbesian sovereignty. I'm not saying that Hobbesian sovereignty is a good
thing, just pointing to the philosophical mileposts.

    
    
      Locke != Hobbes
    

The only time an individual has the right to oppose the Hobbesian Sovereign is
on their way to the gallows. Otherwise, the social contract holds.

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jacobush
I didn’t understand the last paragraph.

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jszymborski
Not OP, but I think the point trying to be made by that last sentence is that
in a world ruled by a Hobbesian Sovereign, no single individual has the right
to oppose the sovereign. Such rebellion in a Hobbesian world should and would
be a punished as a capital offence.

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brudgers
Not what I meant, see my comments further down. Opposition is a superior right
when faced with certain death at the direction of the sovereign. This has
implications in terms of the relationship of Hobbes to _political_ anarchy in
cases where _politcal_ anarchy opposes conscription as oppression by the
state. [1] Then it becomes a matter of the degree to which death is certain.

[1]:
[https://books.google.com/books?id=DiYlDwAAQBAJ&pg=PT180&lpg=...](https://books.google.com/books?id=DiYlDwAAQBAJ&pg=PT180&lpg=PT180&dq=political+anarchy+conscription&source=bl&ots=LKBh5hpApD&sig=i1fbsu1sNCwL-
UNS_uqMopu9hJ0&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwikt-2f2M3XAhVLOiYKHRavCLMQ6AEIJjAA#v=onepage&q=political%20anarchy%20conscription&f=false)

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jszymborski
Glad you could clear that up! My inability to interpret your comment is only
surpassed by my inability to interpret Hobbes ;)

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brudgers
I enjoyed these,
[http://philosophybites.com/hobbes/](http://philosophybites.com/hobbes/)

