
Paul Graham Proves Sexism in Tech Is Still a Problem - 67726e
http://www.thewire.com/technology/2013/12/paul-graham-revives-sexism-tech-talk/356541/
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rayiner
I think this "hacking since teenage" crap is overrated. I started programming
C++ in middle school, but I don't think it makes me a better programmer than
someone that took it up in college. I don't think it matters what girls did in
high school. Every other mature industry favors formalized training over
looking at what people do in their free time. If you said that the best
bankers are the ones that did trading simulations as teenagers, instead of
ones that received formal training at Morgan Stanley, or that the best
engineers are people that built model rockets instead of those that received
formal training at Lockheed, people would laugh at you. But the same sort of
sentiment flies in the tech world. The industry fails to separate the
profession from the cultural tendencies of people in the industry. I think its
just a sign of the immaturity of the profession and will disappear in time.

~~~
ericsink
Two 23 year olds. One has been programming for 10 years, the other one just 4
years.

Isn't it sort of obvious that the person with more experience is likely to
have more skills?

~~~
krisroadruck
@rayiner the problem is you are assuming formal training is as useful or
better than self-teaching in a case where the opposite is likely true. Tech
moves fast, programming requires constant learning and updating of ones skill-
set. The ability (and desire) to self teach is far more useful than rote
memorization in a classroom spoon-fed environment. Self-education is a skill
just like any other that needs practice. During those extra 10 years the child
hackers are pecking away they aren't just getting a leg up on practicing the
craft of programming they are also getting a leg up on practicing self-
teaching.

~~~
rayiner
Well I also disagree that tech moves fast. There is a lot of mindless churn,
but software companies do themselves a lot of prejudice chasing buzzwords when
computing and networking principles are in fact very stable and long lived.
And in any case, it makes a lot more sense to formally train in relevant new
technologies than to have ad hoc self learning.

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sanswork
I'd say this whole article is dishonest and trying to stir controversy in that
the tweet at the very top clarifies the comment.

The writer then spends the entire article talking as if that correction had
never happened then at the end offhandedly mentions the correction but
dismisses it entirely. The whole site screams of linkbait anyhow.

If a lot of start ups won't hire someone that hasn't been hacking for a long
time thats not an oppressive statement so much as an observation of trends.

~~~
wcbeard10
I originally misread the source as 'wired.com'

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bayesianhorse
I believe that sex segregation behaves a lot like other segregation issues. It
can happen by policy and with ill intent, but also completely without.

Often the blame is put on the "recruiting" side of things. Are girls drawn
into CS classes? Are they encouraged to participate? But the bigger question
is when and how are they discouraged? When and why do they leave the "track"
towards "hackerdom" or the software engineering workforce.

Maybe we should become more mindful of the situations in which we are assuming
a girl/woman can't be interested in programming. Maybe we should become more
mindful of when we make it uncomfortable for them.

~~~
dsego
Who is we? What are other women doing about it, I mean except bitching?

~~~
bayesianhorse
If they are in the minority they probably are not doing most of the rejection
in computer science...

And if you really looked hard, you would see numerous initiatives from women.

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kumarski
I thought the very direct point he was making is that there's an small number
of women who are exposed to CS at a young age and that's something that has to
change.

~~~
poolpool
What other jobs is it expected that you've been doing it since early teens?

~~~
Yver
Professional basketball, football, concertist, etc... Professions where only
the very best can succeed. Maybe you can learn piano at 21 and go on to become
a renowned performer, but there's usually a correlation with learning things
early. Might have something to do with the 10,000 hours thing.

~~~
rayiner
Its ridiculous to compare programming to professional sports. There are less
than 500 NBA players, in a sport probably millions of people in the US can
play adequately. They're the 0.01 if not 0.001%. Talented programmers aren't
anywhere near that rare.

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vezzy-fnord
I'm not sure if the fact that I'm completely neutral towards Graham's comments
shows that I'm some bigoted backwards abortion of this generation who isn't up
with the times, that I'm hopelessly jaded, or that people will overreact about
anything.

Given that they link the Adria Richards case as an example of sexism in tech,
I'm having a hunch towards the latter.

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krisroadruck
I don't understand how the writer of this piece can't wrap his head around the
logic here. That someone doing something for 10+ years is probably going to
have a better understanding of it than someone doing it for significantly less
time. This goes back to that whole 10K hours to mastery concept. The other bit
boils down to passion/motivation. Someone who's been geeking out on computers
every day since they were a kid likely did so because they really enjoy it.
Whereas someone who started doing it in college because someone said "this is
where the money is at" is likely to be less passionate about it. To me this
all makes perfect sense.

~~~
omonra
Logic is not what's important. Equality of results is paramount.

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gojomo
_Outrage-farming Proves Reading Comprehension in Tech Journalism Is Still a
Problem_

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WalterBright
> and he has no clue how to get girls to care about tech

I have no control over other peoples' thoughts. The reverse is true, too, I
decide what I care about.

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keeran
"What I actually said was "make _these_ women look..." I was simply explaining
why CS major != hacker. All that got cut." [0]

"Will write about female founders, but traveling all day so it will have to
wait. Reserve judgment? Prob too much to hope for, alas." [1]

[0]
[https://twitter.com/paulg/status/416934337435537410](https://twitter.com/paulg/status/416934337435537410)
[1]
[https://twitter.com/paulg/status/416994260995416064](https://twitter.com/paulg/status/416994260995416064)

~~~
poolpool
You can give PG the benefit of the doubt or compare to this some of his other
questionably racist/sexist statements along the years.

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semerda
As I see it PG was saying: 1\. Hacker != CS degree nor a Learn to Code in
24hrs book, 2\. Focus on teaching software engineering in schools vs colleague
to instill a hacking culture early on, not during the gold rush years.

What is wrong with that? Nothing. It is perfectly sound and clear. Media has a
crappy way of blowing things out of proportion especially around this sexism
in tech. Someone should cut the media fuel lines so we can just resume and
hack in peace.

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_sentient
Seems like nothing more than a misconception on the parts of Valleywag et al.
I suspect an essay will be forthcoming to help lend clarity to the issue.

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peterwwillis
pg completely misses the whole social programming/gender stereotype aspect of
why boys might be more attracted to computers at 13 than girls, but at the
same time, "the wire" is clearly taking his comments and trying to slant them
toward a specific, sarcastic end.

It's pretty tabloid to take some ignorant comments and try to demonize someone
for them. The article also accuses him of creating justifications when his
actual words were trying to explain a possible fix (and admitting that he
didn't know what would actually work).

But his general point is spot on: you have to grow hackers, you can't just
create them out of thin air. More work should be done to get young girls into
hacking (not just more CS grads).

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yesiamyourdad
Seems like PG's problem is that he's dumb enough to comment on the subject.

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smtddr
Wow, this got knocked off the front page(and 2nd page) in a hurry. Discussion
over!

~~~
justin66
Can someone familiar with how the site actually works explain what has
happened here? The story isn't marked with "[DEAD]" or whatever but it doesn't
appear to be indexed on the main site at all anymore - I looked on the first
half dozen pages. Has it just somehow been censored into oblivion?

~~~
presty
it could be any/both of 2 reasons:

\- HN has an automatic flamewar detector algorithm - it monitors the tone of
discussion on a post and if it's too negative, it gets knocked out from the
front page

\- it could've also been flagged too many times

I don't think it's been censored. it must be buried deep

