
The Masculine Mystique of T - ehudla
https://www.nybooks.com/daily/2018/06/28/the-masculine-mystique-of-t/
======
stanfordkid
Intriguing why someone would try to analyze a biological compound through a
cultural / political / sociological lens without at least giving some
reference to actual scientific research.

I have no clue whether anything in this article is true or false. Only that
people might have used Testosterone to justify male dominance. Not saying it
is false, but like what is the evidence? I just see vague anecdotes and
personal opinions from people with no scientific training.

I admit, it did get me to think and I am very curious what the answer is.

~~~
0xcde4c3db
> Intriguing why someone would try to analyze a biological compound through a
> cultural / political / sociological lens without at least giving some
> reference to actual scientific research.

I don't think it's all that strange, given the situation. Testosterone appears
to be a cultural and even economic phenomenon irrespective of its actual
effects. There's a whole franchise chain of doctor's offices branded as "Low T
Centers", which I don't think I've seen for any other biological compound.
It's not a big stretch to say that people interested in that kind of thing are
predominantly more interested in an experience than they are in a molecule.
It's not entirely unlike "pot culture" or "drinking culture", etc..

~~~
mdomans
That to some degree is driven by how taboo TRT (fuelled by steroid craze of
the `80s) was. In effect there were seriously hundreds of men forced to live
for example on Clomid because testosterone was a no-no (compared to TRT Clomid
is like using propofol because you can't sleep)

~~~
atomical
Clomid works for some but not all.

[http://www.ergo-log.com/clomid-testosterone.html](http://www.ergo-
log.com/clomid-testosterone.html)

[http://www.ergo-log.com/clomidendur.html](http://www.ergo-
log.com/clomidendur.html)

~~~
mdomans
The main point of Clomid are quite usual psychological side-effects, including
such fun stuff as suicidal thoughts.

~~~
atomical
Where have you seen that in the literature?

~~~
mdomans
Honestly, I have to dig through. The thing is those things are often
underreported. I worked with a TRT clinic for a while, people on Clomid for
fertility reasons were miserable (as in "kill me now") so that's my bias.

~~~
atomical
The TRT clinic I went to was a clear scam. When he realized my T was too high
he tried to sell me on growth hormone peptides for $300 a month and B12
injections. Lots of pseudoscience. Also, he was a chiropractor. Not surprising
since chiropractors aren't real doctors.

~~~
mdomans
Yeah, a lot of TRT clinics are scam, especially if they employ chiropractors
or naturopaths - DO STAY AWAY. Fact that those professions are allowed to give
medical advice in some countries/states is actually an emerging problem
because the school giving out certificates to these people have a much lower
quality of education which can be fatal. People with "degrees" from schools
such as Bastyr are know to advocate against vaccination and other sane science
while peddling "natural" solutions.

------
iguy
What a strange meandering article. The author seems almost to be seeking
confusion.

Since she quotes Cordelia Fine approvingly, here's an amusing review from a
slightly different perspective:

[https://westhunt.wordpress.com/2017/03/20/old-t-
rex/](https://westhunt.wordpress.com/2017/03/20/old-t-rex/)

~~~
DmenshunlAnlsis
That’s a looooot or claims without anything like citations and support in that
blog. It all sounds alright until you realize it’s a house of cards shown to
you at a very particular angle under the best possible light. I was sort of
curious if it was a one-off from someone who didn’t know how to source their
claims, but reading some more on that site it seems to be more like very
genteel propaganda. The theme seems to be a retread of old ideas on sex, race,
and genetics arrived at by cherry picking results which agree with the
premise. Well written prose, but devoid of intellectual rigour.

~~~
wycs
It’s a blog post. Basically everything there is not controversial in the
relevant fields.

The difference in spatial rotation is extremely well
replicated:[https://www.researchgate.net/publication/19086027_Emergence_...](https://www.researchgate.net/publication/19086027_Emergence_and_Characterization_of_Sex_Differences_in_Spatial_Ability_A_Meta-
Analysis)

The difference in grip
strength:[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/17186303/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/17186303/)

It just is the case that professional women’s sports teams lose to male high
school teams
regularly:[https://www.google.ca/amp/s/www.yahoo.com/amphtml/sports/blo...](https://www.google.ca/amp/s/www.yahoo.com/amphtml/sports/blogs/olympics-
fourth-place-medal/u-women-hockey-team-scrimmaging-against-high-
school-170704740--oly.html)

I don’t think lack of citations is your true objection.

~~~
DmenshunlAnlsis
I wasn’t concerned about no-brainers like grip-strength, which really in no
way bears on the central claims made.

~~~
wycs
Then provide some examples.

------
bluedevil2k
The article hints that the effects of testosterone may be placebo, but at
least physical muscle-wise, I’ve always found this study fascinating. Summary
of the study - guys who took excessive amounts of testosterone who sat on the
couch build 3x the muscle of men who worked out naturally with weights
consistently.

[https://www.aworkoutroutine.com/steroids-vs-
natural/](https://www.aworkoutroutine.com/steroids-vs-natural/)

~~~
mdomans
In regard to this study I'd like to point one thing. Therapeutic dose of
testosterone enanthate (that can be prescribed legally) is nowhere near 600mg
a week. Highest I heard of is 200mg. That will put average man above normal
levels. 600mg is insanely high (3-4 times maximum test level) but the risk
goes linear with the dose. At that level they have to be monitored pretty in-
depth (BP, hematocrit, electrolytes, kidney function, lipid profile and
probably psychiatric evaluation every 6-8 months. I know a lof of BB who ended
up on SSRIs or in funny towns)

------
1996
strange article, not fully accurate either.

> no one individual gets to choose precisely what changes it produces. As one
> friend who had started T said to me, “Let me know if you find a way to get
> the big muscles and keep the head hair!

Actually, we know. DHT causes the male pattern baldness. The conversion from T
to DHT by 5 alpha reductase can be blocked by drugs.

We don't have good topicals or selective drugs yet, so people complain about
the side effects of current drugs like finasteride. But it's not like we are
talking of a huge scientific unknown, or if it is impossible to do that is
described.

~~~
bluedevil2k
DHT plus the male pattern baldness genes. Not everyone who takes T would even
be affected at all hair wise, propecia or not.

------
tranchms
Not to be critical, but I find this article to be uncompelling.

I began working out when I was 13. After college post 2010 I experimented with
Testosterone, from 200mg a week to 600mg a week. It’s a whole underground
culture.

My own experiences were exactly like the stereotype— increased libido,
increased muscle mass, increase strength, increase mood swings. The sex drive
is palpable. It’s ferocoiously potent, increasing sexual stamina, confidence,
euphoric feelings of dominance.

I have coached many pupils in the realm of Testosterone injection. Every
single one has experienced the same side effects.

I want to stress something. The endocrine system is vastly complex. Every
hormone influences a cascade of other hormones. For this reason, maintaining
health (strenuous exercise and a sound diet) is essential for ensuring those
side effects are predictable.

For example, when testosterone levels are high, the body naturally wants to
convert excess testosterone to other hormones— namely estrogen.

High estrogen can cause all sorts of side effects, including bloat, fat gain,
mood swings, acne, and gynomastia. (Think what happens when a woman gets her
monthly period... her body is flush with estrogen, and all the accompanying
side effects).

To remedy this, you take estrogen blockers. Or AI’s (aromatase inhibitors,
which is the enzyme catalyst responsible for converting T into E).

However, some estrogen is good. It is what causes a lot of that well-being and
euphoria. Block all estrogen and energy levels plummet.

This is just one. There is DHT, or di-hydro-testosterone, which is 10x more
androgenic than testosterone. There is cortisol. There is insulin. There are
effects on HGH levels.

The list of cascading influences on the endocrine system is complex.

What else effects hormones? Exercise- circulation and digestion.

Diet. What food you consume effects your sugar levels, which effect your
hormones. Your fat and cholesterol consumption affects your hormones.
(Cholesterol is the base fat molecule that the body uses to manufacture all
other fat based hormones. Without it, hormone levels are depressed, and the
endocrine system functions sub optimally).

I say all this because it’s complex.

Human organisms are complex.

If you don’t understand or appreciate the complexity, you’ll ascribe cause
where it’s undue.

There is no magic bullet.

We are a complex organism.

I will say, however, that testosterone is powerful.

I am no longer on it today, and I look back and think about how powerfully it
affected me psychologically, physically, and emotionally. It definitely can
change your life, and you can get addicted to that change. It’s empowering.

~~~
oceanghost
This. I have done many a cycle in my life, and of things far stronger than
test.

I hate that I only feel like the person I want to be on cycle.

It speaks to the fragility and impermanence of the mind that a simple
injection can make you a completely different person.

If you've never had your mind altered, you cannot understand how fragile your
self-identity is.

~~~
tranchms
I’m with you.

It’s been a struggle to reconcile life on it and off it.

For six years I pinned. EW or EOD or ED. I got tired of it. It was consuming,
and I felt like an addict.

Testosterone is a carnal experience.

I got tired of the mood swings. I felt amazing but, unstable. Certain things
were not stable. My relationships specifically.

I’m off it now, and I have to say, life is not as colorful, not as intense,
not as visceral, not as exciting.

My sex drive is average.

I retained a lot of muscle mass. I still look good, and healthy. But I am a
larger human being. I don’t see that changing too much. I’m not as lean. My
hair has receded faster than it otherwise would have if I never took it. I
have more bodyhair, specifically the back and chest and stomach, which isn’t
all that sexy. I used to shave it. But I don’t even care anymore. Take me as I
am.

I miss the pump. The fullness. The excitement. The leanness. The vascularity.
The ability to have sex 10 times in a row. The euphoric organisms that were
like pure ecstasy. I loved sex.

The endless energy.

But I also felt like it was all artificial. That I was not really this person
without it. And it was self obsessive. Mostly worried about what other people
thought. It was so carnal, so... superficial. Physical.

That didn’t leave me feeling too great.

I think about getting back on. I’d look better. I’d feel better. It’s like the
best antidepressant, if you can handle occasional mood swings and intense
reactions.

But I’m happy. I’m calmer. My life is more consistent. The highs aren’t are
high, but neither are the lows. The relationship with my girlfriend has gotten
more stable. The fact that I’ve had a girlfriend more than a year is a
testament to being off.

I’m focusing on my intellectual pursuits once again.

Maybe when I’m approaching 40 I’ll consider TRT again.

Until then, I’m okay with the way things are, and the way I am.

~~~
oceanghost
I just turned 40 a few days ago, and after a bad divorce decided to pull my
body out of the shitter again.

Dealing with a divorce on tren+pose+t is, awful. But the results are hard to
argue with. I go to the gym 6 days a week, I lift all the things I'm supposed
to, and the weight comes off, and the muscles grow. I've lost a shirt size in
8 weeks; my biceps don't fit in my shirts anymore. In 6 months I'll be
unrecognizable, then I am getting out. No matter how much heart I put into the
gym, I cannot lose weight with diet and exercise.

It is so frustrating dealing with doctors at this age. They'll tell you "diet
and exercise" knowing full well you don't have the hormones to lose weight or
recover from exercise, and that medical science has proven diets don't work
because obesity is primarily a hormonal problem or a reaction to stress. About
five years ago, I hired a professional bodybuilder as a diet coach/trainer and
_he_ diagnosed me with low T and adrenal insufficiency. I brought the tests to
my doc he says, "this is good stuff", and he still won't prescribe T, but he
still has the balls to say, "I want to see you at the gym."

I am going to run the gauntlet this one last time. Wish I wasn't single,
however. I just try to burn it off the energy at the gym.

I'm glad you've reached some stability, and thanks for the thoughtful reply.
:)

~~~
mdomans
If I may chime in: trenbolone and boldenone will hit your psyche hard.

Here's a short on pro bodybuilders. Most of them know jack shit about
endocrine system. I'm sorry, but I work in this business. I've seen pros with
IFBB pro card having their "pupils" on 100iu insulin daily. It's pure stupid.
And I don't blame your doc because adrenal insufficiency is moot, there's a
ton of good evidence on that. I've also seen one idiot with IFBB pro being
wheeled into ER because he was doing cocaine while on juice and decided to fix
with muscle cramps by giving himself IV with potassium. Put together
hyperkalemia and cocaine and you're in for a V-fib.

I've also seen pro bodybuilders suggesting other stupid things. Some work,
some not, main difference is that when you get "diagnosed" by a pro
bodybuilder he's responsible for nothing :)

To my point: diet and exercise do work. Your adrenal insufficiency was
probably effed up cortisol curve (lack of sleep? stress? caffeine hard all
day?) but it's not adrenal insufficiency. Adrenal insuffiency is a SERIOUS
clinically recognized condition called Addison's diseases and it's symptoms
are rather obvious.

Low T as for a bodybuilder usually means anything below 400ng/dl. Not 100%
healthy and certainly not the best for gym (600ng/dl-800ng/dl range is best),
but your doc ins't responsible what's legal in US.

My advise would be, if you feel bad on low T, remain on testosterone alone.
The main problem with boldenone is CV load (elevated hematocrit) and
trenbolone REALLY damages psyche and kidneys. It messes up serotonin
metabolism HARD. You can check any respected AAS guru and he will tell you
that a month on Trenbolone is ALL that should be done and that's for pros
only.

I do get that you want fast effects, but it's not worth it. Any bodybuilder I
know who used to run trenbolone long term has huge psychological problems,
with few ending in the funny town.

In short: if you need to do it, drop trenbolone and boldenone, switch yourself
to nandrolone, monitor your BP and hematocrit (you can ask your doc for
telmisartan) and limit yourself to something like 400mg of testosterone a
week. You will just live longer and better.

~~~
oceanghost
You may, and thank you for the reply. You are correct about this. I'm 6 weeks
in with tren and near major depression. I'm going to try falling back to T as
you've suggested.

However, I have NEVER run tren more than 8 weeks, and maybe half a dozen
cycles in my life. It is just too powerful.

Again, thank you.

~~~
mdomans
If I may, and this is a delicate topic but I often suggest talking to a
psychiatrist who specialises in depression or a clinical psychologist. I know
antidepressants (and visiting a psych is still a stigma somewhere, it
shouldn't be) have a very bad reputation (in part because prescribing rules
were relaxed and tons of people live on SSRIs for years) but profesionall help
is priceless.

I've met men with really scary problems they weren't even able to talk about
and I mean tough guys who look like Ron Swansons tough uncle. I recently
talked to a guy owning a biz in construction AND being a first responder.
Testosterone helps because it has antidepresive effect but the issue may be
more complicated - it's good to be able to talk to someone.

~~~
oceanghost
I've been mulling over a response to this for a few days. I appreciate the
advice and recognize it as true. I am ok, however. When I said I had major
depression, I meant, I recognized the feeling of it having been diagnosed with
it in the past. I have in the past sought help and am aware of the difference
between depression caused by hormones, drugs, situational depression, etc. I
have always found that clean living-- exercise, sleep, and in my case staying
away from wheat and other allergens, almost always alleviate the problem in a
few days.

Again, Thanks.

~~~
mdomans
Cool, happy you have your stuff together :)

------
anonymoustuser
As a man in my early twenties, I found myself with a sexual partner for the
first time and was dismayed to find that I couldn't achieve orgasm through
intercourse. I asked a doctor and he found my testosterone to be very low,
well below the "normal range" cutoffs. I was prescribed testosterone
replacement therapy (TRT), where I would inject myself every other week with
testosterone, not unlike body builders though with the goal of obtaining
normal levels not supraphysiological ones. According to bloodwork, that goal
was met (which means if my T levels were now normal in the middle of the two
weeks that they were certainly well above the normal range for the first day
or two after an injection).

However, I felt no effects of the hormone. It did not solve the original
problem - my libido was flat, my erections still adequate but no more
energized than before, my intercourse still failing to stimulate me to orgasm.
But I had also read the literature ahead of time and had come with
expectations of many other side-effects that sounded great: the obvious muscle
and strength effects, increased alertness or energy, decreased fat percentage.
It seemed like everything that could be improved, was! (Except infertility and
a chance to grow boobs in an ironic twist of stereotypes.) But I didn't see
any of those effects - my numbers at the gym were still unremarkable, I still
sometimes felt tired for no reason, my body looked the same. As far as I could
tell, I was on placebo - except the bloodwork confirmed its effects. (I think
I experienced more spontaneous nighttime erections, something that I only
naturally got sporadically and considered more of a nuisance than a benefit.)

This was extremely disheartening. I stopped taking it after half a year when
my relationship died in large part due to lack of good sex.

I say this mostly because all accounts of TRT seem to skew towards the
miraculous. Like all things, its effects vary from person to person. Had I had
tempered expectations, maybe I would not have been so discouraged. Maybe I
would have tried alternative approaches to solving my problems. I don't know.

Some years later, I finally had satisfying sex. No medication involved, just a
little persistence and finding the right person. I still struggle with not
climaxing every time and sometimes am fantasizing that I could go back onto T
and fix that. Maybe I'll try it again with expectations for a small,
incremental improvement. Or maybe not.

So while this article is being met with a fairly negative reception in this
comments, I actually found it a breath of fresh air. Had I read it ahead of
time, I might have had more realistic expectations! I didn't really read it as
giving a stamp of approval to attempts to over-state the sociological and
gender studies points of view (it seems fairly critical of those, opting more
to just say that it was too complex a hormone to sum up as a miraculously
masculine molecule). Those using it to reshape society seem to be criticized
by the article as possibly relying mostly on placebo effects, on society's
expectations for what testosterone should do, ironically.

Also, the literature on TRT is surprisingly limited. I thought that young
males with below normal levels, as one of the most approved recipients of TRT,
would have been a large portion of the studies. Instead, I struggled to find
ones that studied my cohort. Older men with dropping T levels (which is
entirely normal) were often the subjects, presumably because that's where the
money is these days. I worry also that the increasing use of it in young
transgender people may be equally poorly studied.

------
toomchsauce
Summary: Testosterone doesn’t have well-understood effects because they are
complex and affect individuals differently. It’s more like a placebo and
symbol of artificial expectations society has about what is “masculine”. The
demand for T is a sign that society is sick.

~~~
lambdaphagy
Testosterone levels in the West have declined by about a factor of two over
the past few decades
([https://academic.oup.com/jcem/article/92/1/196/2598434](https://academic.oup.com/jcem/article/92/1/196/2598434)).
Maybe society is indeed sick.

~~~
ecopoesis
Or maybe it was always sick and is getting better? There’s no war in Europe.
No war in the Western Hemisphere. Violent crime in the US is at a multi-decade
low. There has been a human in space for the entirety of the 21st century.
Most of the world carries a supercomputer with instant access to the sum total
of human knowledge in their pocket.

We live in an age of marvels.

If society is indeed sick then the cure probably isn’t worth it.

~~~
mdomans
It'd be a nice theory but we actually know that as men get their testosterone
levels lower they get to be at higher and higher risk of certain diseases. For
example, testosterone is often cited as carrying risk of CVD and for many
years we were confused why men with below low cutoff testosterone are at even
higher risk of CVD than men just above high cutoff. As it turns out, estrogen,
another sex hormone, pretty important for CV health is made through
aromatisation from testosterone in the walls of blood vessels. Thus,
surprisingly being low on testosterone actually increases risk of CVD through
estrogen insufficiency. Yes, human endocrine system is complicated like that,
and no, testosterone is not a fashion or something we can improve because
we're smarter. We're studying AAS for about 70 years now and we still know
pretty little. Testosterone and estrogen are "kinda" understood as they're
mainly endocrine hormones. As for those secreted in para- and autocrine
fashion (e.g. DHT) we still know not enough.

