
Linux laptops: should you avoid buying Windows? - hepha1979
http://www.theguardian.com/technology/askjack/2013/dec/13/linux-laptops-should-you-avoid-buying-windows
======
ggreer
I noticed one important omission in this article: SSDs. All of the recommended
laptops had 500GB hard drives. Modern SSDs are an order of magnitude faster
than laptop hard drives in sequential reads/writes and two orders of magnitude
faster in random access. Decent SSDs can easily saturate a 6gbps SATA III bus.
They have latencies measured in microseconds. They are silent, shock-tolerant,
and more energy efficient than hard drives.

Once you've switched to an SSD, any laptop with a hard drive will feel broken.
Feel free to skimp on everything else when purchasing a laptop, but make sure
you shell out the money for a solid state drive.

~~~
gmac
_Feel free to skimp on everything else_

Not hugely helpful advice?

Among the things you shouldn't skimp on I'd also include the screen, keyboard
and RAM. I guess you could skimp on the processor and graphics ... assuming
you're not a gamer and don't compile large projects.

Plus, given the high price of SSDs, skimping on everything else might not even
make up the cost.

------
jedbrown
I have run either Linux or FreeBSD (briefly) on every laptop I have owned
since my first one in 2002. I have never once booted into Windows since the
first thing I do is wipe the disk. However, despite switching vendors several
times, every one of those machines has had Windows preinstalled because it
ended up being included with the hardware I wanted. Even when I was quite
poor, I didn't care so much about getting a refund for the Windows Tax (after
all, I was willing to pay the price with Windows included), but I hated the
fact that I was subsidizing a company whose product I don't use and who is
actively working against my user experience. I'd be happy with paying the same
retail price, but with a simple way to donate what would have gone to
Microsoft to the Linux Foundation or to pay an employee working on drivers,
open standards, or anything else that ultimately improves my experience.

------
mrj
I wouldn't risk the pain. You'll have to do a fair bit of research to figure
out how easily Linux can be setup on a given laptop, and if you'll have to
deal with the UEFI secure boot madness or not.

I just got a laptop from system76.com instead and I'm very pleased with it. No
messing about. I know it works with my OS.

If that's not appealing, then Linux works great on Apple laptops.

~~~
maxharris
_If that 's not appealing, then Linux works great on Apple laptops._

Yep.

Also, as an aside (relevant because hardware quality is an important factor no
matter what OS you have installed): After 15 years of wrestling with non-Apple
hardware, I bought a MacBook Pro in 2008, and another one in 2011. I tried
using a PC laptop from work a couple of months ago, and I was shocked at how
terrible the build quality was. A brand new laptop should not squeak when you
use the keyboard or trackpad. Nor should it crash randomly once a day.

After six years of pain-free living with the Mac, I have no sympathy for those
that complain about PCs but won't switch.

~~~
kunai
I see you haven't used a ThinkPad.

This is the same bullshit logical fallacy that keeps me firmly opposed to
modern Macs. You think, that somehow, a $300 PC will be WORSE than a $1299
MacBook, and that ALL PCs are somehow terrible in build quality.

And then again more bullshit about Windows crashing twice a day. Yeah, maybe,
if you have some crappy third-party wireless card with a driver written by
some corporate intern in Pascal 18 years ago.

People like you are why my Air is sitting in my closet and why I'm still using
a PowerBook G4 in 2013.

~~~
antiterra
> People like you are why my Air is sitting in my closet and why I'm still
> using a PowerBook G4 in 2013.

How does that in any way follow from what you said, and what do you even mean?

~~~
kunai
Well, really, it doesn't. Sorry for not making my point as clear as it should
have been.

Essentially, this whole point that Windows laptops have no good ideas to be
gleaned from and that Apple is God is making computers worse. I don't use the
Air because it represents everything I hate about Apple: locked-down,
stripped-down, un-customizable, unconfigurable, and untenable. Yes, it's damn
pretty, but I don't just want pretty. I want pretty, fast, and functional. The
PowerBook, and later, the 2006/7/8-era MacBook Pros, represent everything I
love about Apple: well-designed, comfortable, functional, easy to use, and
post-purchase upgradable.

Apple used to produce machines that were like that, but ever since Ive's been
at the omnipresent helm of hardware design, everything I used to love about
Apple's machines has gone down the river, so to speak. Yes, the new Mac Pro is
exceptionally beautiful on a desk next to a huge 30" 4K monitor, but it
doesn't have the functionality necessary to be called a Mac _Pro_. Studios
need the expandability provided by PCI-e. TB still has too much latency to be
able to be considered against true internal slot expansion. The Retina MacBook
Pro is gorgeous, but it doesn't have an optical drive, so putting your high-
quality lossless media on it gets to be a pain. It also doesn't have
upgradable memory, or even a user-replaceable battery, two things that would
be easily engineered if this "0.02mm thinner is better" mentality would die.

But, hey, you can't please everyone. I bet I'm going to be that guy with a
20-year-old computer who's running nothing but a shell and complaining about
how the transparent, glass-screened, ultra-thin tablets of the future don't
have user-replaceable hard drives.

~~~
maxharris
_and that Apple is God_

This is not my view at all. I would buy from any vendor that's willing to drop
legacy features such as upgradability in favor of improving the device for
people. Apple is the only company that currently does that, so that's why I
think their stuff is so hot.

I was wishing for a 15" portable without optical storage for _years_ before
Apple delivered it with the current retina MacBook Pro model.

 _But, hey, you can 't please everyone. I bet I'm going to be that guy with a
20-year-old computer who's running nothing but a shell and complaining about
how the transparent, glass-screened, ultra-thin tablets of the future don't
have user-replaceable hard drives._

If you can think far enough to see this and formulate it in a sentence, as you
have just done, then you don't have to become that guy. When you find yourself
at odds with the world, you shouldn't instantly capitulate. But you should be
ready to try to find out why people have a different view, and to change if
what you find out necessitates it.

Back in the late 90s, I had a similar kind of animosity toward programming for
the web. At the time, I thought Javascript was garbage, and traditional
desktop apps would rule forever. Because I wasn't willing to actually look at
the aspects of reality that were pertinent, the startup I did literally
_missed the web,_ which is one of the reasons it failed. (We used the browser
as just a way to put up brochures about the software we were writing.) Now I
write web apps for a living.

Don't get boxed in by your own stale, unchallenged assumptions about the
outside world. Test them.

~~~
kunai
> I would buy from any vendor that's willing to drop legacy features such as
> upgradability in favor of improving the device for people

Except that most of these removals don't improve the device for people. If you
weren't so blinded by the "Less is always better" dogma, you might have
understood my previous point. The changes Apple made to their devices have
continually made them harder to use on a daily basis for many people. Go on
the forums, there's hundreds of complaints about the extremely small thermal
envelope due to the thin chassis. There's even more about the removal of
Ethernet, still a very, very viable technology, and yet more about the super-
sharp palmrest bevel. There's tons more about the removal of Exposé and Spaces
in post-Lion releases, and yet more about the "improved" document handling in
OS X. The takeaway is that OEMs are running out of ideas, so more simplistic
at the expense of function seems to be the only thing they can think of.

But hey, it's shiny, so it must be better.

~~~
maxharris
You decry the removal of Exposé and Spaces, but not many customers missed
those features anyway. The average consumer isn't fleeing the platform; in
fact, simplifying things in OS X is an asset to most people. After a three
decades behind PCs, my father got his first Mac last year. The last thing he
wants to do is fiddle with multiple desktops, and the last thing I want is to
get a phone call about it.

You're dismissing the new as merely "shiny," but there's a lot more to it than
that. Complaining about the lack of wired ethernet ports is pretty much the
same kind of thing as people complaining about the lack of the floppy drive
and ADB on the original iMac. A bunch of people complained vociferously about
it on the internet, mostly before they even had a chance to actually use one.
Despite all that, that same machine turned out to be the first in a long
string of products that literally saved the company from bankruptcy.

If what you say about building for the future were actually true (that it
doesn't improve the device for people), then you'd see it in the company's
financials. It can take a few quarters, but companies in this industry fail
when they don't offer what their customers really want. (Just look at RIM.)
And in order to do that, they have to design and build these things ahead of
time, which means their target is at least 12-24 months in the future for
refreshes, and a lot longer than that for new product categories.

That Wayne Gretzky quote - "I skate to where the puck is going to be, not
where it has been" \- really describes a major driver of Apple's success over
the past fifteen years. Listening to customer requests for ethernet ports
(most people use Wi-Fi), optical drives (most people download movies), IrDA
ports (most people never used it), etc. is a great way to direct the limited
resources of the company into building more and more products that people
aren't as willing to buy (i.e., less profitable) by the time the company is
ready to sell them.

At this point, I have to ask: Why are we having this conversation? If you
think it's such a great idea to keep building computers the way they did in
2008, but just with better speeds and feeds, why don't you try making a
business out of it? If not, why? This is not just a rhetorical device - I'm
completely serious.

\---

As for the importance of what people have to say on forums, I submit the
following:

Here's the way people reacted to the first iPod:
[http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=500](http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=500)

"Sounds very revolutionary to me.

hey - heres an idea Apple - rather than enter the world of gimmicks and toys,
why dont you spend a little more time sorting out your pathetically expensive
and crap server line up? or are you really aiming to become a glorified
consumer gimmicks firm?"

"I still can't believe this! All this hype for something so ridiculous! Who
cares about an MP3 player? I want something new! I want them to think
differently! Why oh why would they do this?! It's so wrong! It's so stupid!"

"It's now at the online Apple Store!

$400 for an Mp3 Player!

I'd call it the Cube 2.0 as it wont sell, and be killed off in a short
time...and it's not really functional.

Uuhh Steve, can I have a PDA now?"

"All that hype for an MP3 player? Break-thru digital device? The Reality
Distiortion Field™ is starting to warp Steve's mind if he thinks for one
second that this thing is gonna take off."

-

[http://slashdot.org/story/01/10/23/1816257/](http://slashdot.org/story/01/10/23/1816257/)

-

I'm not going to keep digging, but you can find lots more of this same kind of
crap thinking at the iPhone launch. I remember talking to a friend (an
engineer at a major chipmaker) that said, "I don't understand what all the
hype is about this Jesus phone."

-

And here similar things were said at the iPad launch:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1080840](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1080840)

~~~
mimiflynn
Btw, fellas, Expose and Spaces is still around, just under a different name in
the preferences called 'Mission Control'.

------
Zigurd
With good support for Intel graphics, and more laptops leaving out 3rd party
GPUs even on Core i7 models, it's easy to buy a laptop with high confidence
that Linux will work on it.

But the article glosses over the trickiness of keeping a Windows partition on
UEFI machines. Not an issue for me, but it does make me want a Windows license
refund more than before.

~~~
csmuk
Well it is until you want reliable WiFi and hibernate/suspend that actually
works...

~~~
iends
I've not had problems with wireless under Linux since ~2000.

Suspend/Resume is also catching up.

~~~
lukeschlather
I reinstalled Ubuntu on an Asus that shipped with Ubuntu, and wireless
randomly doesn't work on boot. Claims that it's disabled by hardware switch
(there is no hardware switch.)

~~~
mixmastamyk

        sudo rfkill unblock all
    

Why? I don't know, but I have to run this command a few times a year. It's in
my history so it's easy to find.

------
bluedino
I thought this article would be about System76. I've had pretty good luck with
buying a ThinkPad T/X series and just plopping in the latest Ubuntu LTS
release.

~~~
odonnellryan
Works great with many Dell laptops as well.

------
rythie
I had to check the date of the post to check this wasn't dated 2003 or
something - his answer seems very dated. Really it's not as hard as he makes
out to make this stuff work, popular distros are being updated every 6-months,
Intel, Nvidia & AMD get their stuff supported from day one.

------
loopasam
The article shows that buying Windows with a laptop doesn't cost you much more
than no Windows at all. Based on this and my experience, I suggest to get a
Windows first and install whatever Linux you like as dual-boot. The reasons
are:

1) Having a Windows installed strongly guarantees that you are going to have a
functional machine no matter what. Depending on your experience with Linux you
might screw things up. If it happens you still have Windows as a back-up.

2) If your aim is to communicate research results, it is very likely that you
are going to need to use Office at some point, to interact with your
supervisor, colleagues, that don't care about OS and just run Windows (the
majority of people). You can use Office within Linux but I find it much easier
to use directly from Windows (reduces the pipework and focus on the science).

3) It maybe no longer holds, but a few years ago it was really frustrating to
use and connect machines running Linux on a projector. For instance let's say
you have to give a talk at a conference, you want to be 100% sure that it will
work out of the box and that you don't have to fiddle around to show your
slides. Windows does that really well (drivers are primarily developed for it
I guess) and allows you to focus on the presentation only (stressful enough).
I've witnessed numerous times good science being badly communicated because of
this issue, where people try to tune the resolution for 10 minutes before
starting and the slides end-up being half-cropped.

In summary, dual-boots guarantees compatibility with the outside world
(science research perspective), and you can use your Linux the rest of the
time :-)

~~~
rythie
> 2) If your aim is to communicate research results, it is very likely that
> you are going to need to use Office at some point

Given that I work in a research department, math/scientific research papers
are typically written in Latex - Microsoft's support for formulae is pretty
bad from what I hear. Also, it's quite likely that your supervisor will have a
Mac, those are extremely popular with academics.

> 3) Windows does that really well (drivers are primarily developed for it I
> guess)

PowerPoint can really mess that up, you adjust the the screen so it's just
right, then hit full screen and PowerPoint changes it a completely different
resolution!

Also, I've seen tons of people struggle to connect to projectors, this is far
from Linux-only problem, typical problems are not knowing the hot key to
switch outputs, using the wrong resolution, extend vs. clone and not having an
adaptor (typically mac, but not always).

------
aurora72
The author exaggerates the compatibility of Linux drivers on a given Laptop.

------
lettergram
I know when I decided to buy a cheapish laptop 4 years ago to run Linux I
chose Lenovo, it's still running decently well and I have never had problems.
However, after reviewing the specs new laptops (since it's about time to get a
new one) I am leaning towards a Macbook air or pro. They seem to give more
bang for the buck and the OS has everything I need, along with excellent
hardware (and outstanding battery life). I could also ssh into my linux tower
when ever I need.

That being said, I know I would suggest that the person in this article
probably should go with a macbook air. It is better than windows in most
respects and also has much of the capabilities of most linus distros.

~~~
nilgradisnik
Before looking into Macbooks you should check out Thinkpad X1 Carbon, works
flawlessly on Ubuntu, superb build quality and performance. Speaking from my
own experience.

~~~
w1ntermute
Another vote for the X1 Carbon. Definitely the way to go. It's too bad hardly
anyone knows about it though.

------
keithpeter
Mentions Lenovo, UK based, but does not feature the Linux Emporium, strange.

I personally do not need exceptional speed, so using refurbished Thinkpads off
ebay.

 _" This would enable you to wipe the hard drive and install Debian while
retaining the option to load either Windows 7 Pro (which includes an XP mode)
or Windows 8 Pro if you need them."_

I would _always_ suggest making an image of the hard drive using CloneZilla
_and_ using the Windows tool to make a restore DVD before wiping. Should you
decide to flog the beast in a year or so, you can restore to factory state.

~~~
johnchristopher
Can you recommend any sellers ?

~~~
keithpeter
At the Core Duo 2 end of the spectrum (e.g. X200s and X61 in my case), there
are quite a few UK ebay sellers selling ex-corporate machines and I have had
no problems with two of those, look out for a 30 day return period, and they
always do a 'buy it now' price.

Newer i3/i5 based Thinkpads tend to be sold in smaller quantities by
individuals so you just have to decide...

There is glugglug if an older X60 will do

[http://shop.gluglug.org.uk/](http://shop.gluglug.org.uk/)

Never bought from them but coreboot and a wifi card with fully free drivers
look interesting. If they get newer machines to refurbish, I'll definitely
look at one in the future.

~~~
johnchristopher
Thank you.

------
jdonaldson
I had the dell xps 13 for a while. At the time, I thought the planets had
finally aligned wrt driver support, build quality, and base specs. I was
already using ubuntu on workstations and vms, and felt pretty happy with it.

In the end, it was small things that caused problems. For the dell xps 13, it
was wireless performance. Also, I got the HD screen, which makes certain
applications nearly unusable at the small screen dimensions.

I went back to a macbook air. I know you're not looking for a macbook, but
that ended up being my sweet spot.

------
johnminter
I have wondered about Zareason laptops
([http://zareason.com/shop/Laptops/](http://zareason.com/shop/Laptops/)).
Anybody tried them?

~~~
aurora72
I haven't even known such a brand existed but their products are fine

------
fzltrp
Manufacturers used to offer the possibility of requesting to get a refund for
the unused MS Windows license. Did that possibility go away?

~~~
schoen
I was involved in some Windows Refund stuff in California. Many manufacturers
later added language to their marketing and packaging claiming that bundled
software was an integral part of their product and could not be returned
separately, nor resold separately. If you tried to return it separately for a
refund (as the Windows EULA text seemed to suggest), they would say that that
was only an option if you returned the entire product.

So, my impression is that it's actually become dramatically more difficult for
most manufacturers because they're specifically trying to prevent customers
from getting a refund just for bundled copies of Windows.

I've imagined that some of these policies might violate (or be unenforceable
because of) antitrust, consumer protection, or copyright laws in some
jurisdictions, but I don't know of specific cases where they've been
challenged on these bases or what the results were. I still look forward to a
future in which the price of proprietary operating systems is actually able to
operate as a disincentive for people to buy them.

------
drill_sarge
If you get a laptop with mostly Intel (especially gpu) components it is pretty
much guaranteed that any major Linux distribution will work out of the box
just fine. The thing with preinstalled GNU/Linux is the same with preinstalled
Windows: abysmal configuration. Even Dell fked up with their xps13 linux
thing.

------
_Simon
Reading the article, it sounds like it should carry an "Advertising Feature"
sub heading. I've long thought Scofield is a hack. This piece confirms it.

