
On Programming Languages: Why My Dad Went from Programming to Driving a Bus - albert-helmuth
https://ntguardian.wordpress.com/2017/03/13/on-programming-languages-why-my-dad-went-from-programming-to-driving-a-bus/
======
labrador
As you might imagine, this article is raising a lot of issues for me since I
took a break from programming and drove a city bus in Las Vegas. Now I am back
to programming (before C++:PHP3:ES3, after:PHP7:ES7:Node.js) Driving a bus is
a most interesting proposition and I can say without a doubt it was the most
satisfying job I ever had. I had to learn street smarts and apply them
effectively. As someone without them, this was both a challenge and a thrill.
I'm not driving a city bus now because of high blood pressure.

Some thoughts: OP's Dad doesn't want admit to his son he prefers driving a
bus. OR OP is assuming he doesn't when he actually does. OP's Dad certainly
knows he is displaying a remarkable lack of initiative when it comes to
learning new languages and it sounds like he's manufactured some excuses to
satisfy the family. Bus driving is an addictive Zen like experience, I-kid-
you-not, so I might be right.

~~~
developer2
>> OP's Dad certainly knows he is displaying a remarkable lack of initiative
when it comes to learning new languages and it sounds like he's manufactured
some excuses to satisfy the family

No, OP's dad is sick and tired of working for an industry that drowns him with
its stress, misery, and corporate bullshit. The reason for finding an excuse
to give your family is that they are expecting you provide them with a/an
(upper?) middle class lifestyle. Screw your happiness and reduced levels of
stress; what matters most to them is your paycheque and what it can offer
them. For some people, $20+ more per hour is not worth rotting away in a
cubicle, while being treated like a replaceable nobody, always being belittled
like a child at every review for "not meeting company goals", all the while
being part of the very reason the company is making millions of dollars a
year. All for what? A white picket fence that ultimately adds no meaning
whatsoever to life?

I'm single and turning 32 this year. I'm beyond sick and tired of this
industry. I'm constantly put down like a piece of disposable garbage; and yet
every time I leave a company, management is freaking out and begging me not to
leave because of the success I've brought them. I can't imagine being a dad,
with the burden of responsibility that adds. I'd be having my first heart
attack before age 40.

~~~
sabalaba
You might enjoy moving to Silicon Valley, I can assure you good SWEs are
treated much better here than whatever location you're describing. Talented
engineers are highly valued and treated as such.

~~~
fapjacks
Hear, hear! Don't want to deal with it? Take off! Companies need _us_ , not
the other way around.

------
derekp7
This is a good object lesson for the common advice of "do what you love". If
you really love working with computers, then it is really hard to resist
messing with them all the time. So you have a side effect of constantly
improving your knowledge. But if you don't love it, but are only into
programming because you can make money at it, then you won't be driven to
constantly learn (even if that learning is just a side effect of "playing").
Now that doesn't necessarily mean that you will be an expert at everything,
but people who have a passion for this type of sport will be in a position to
pivot when needed.

I've run into people in similar situations, they used to be a systems
administrator or a developer, but are completely out of it and no longer able
to write any code. In some cases it is burn out, but I couldn't imagine ever
going so much as a week without experimenting with something that is
intellectually stimulating.

Now it may be that the protagonist in this story really did have a passion for
translating business logic rules into Cobol. But was he really doing
programming, or was it more following a set of procedures that ended up
cranking out the needed code, without having to really invest a lot into the
process? Because if there was a strong passion there, I'd think it would have
extended to continuously tinkering around with other technology. (Or am I
getting dangerously to the "no true Scotsman" fallacy?)

~~~
warcher
Man, I am real, real sick of the premise that I, as a professional, am somehow
second rate due to the fact that I have interests outside of my work when I am
not working. I build a lot of shit, I am real good at my job, and I have
survived _multiple_ rounds of the predominant tech stack being totally purged,
but when the whistle blows I am _not in front of a keyboard_.

You guys should really consider cultivating interests outside your work.
You'll be glad you did.

And you'll also find that dedicating yourself to professional excellence _just
within the context of your daily work_ will yield more than enough
opportunities to develop technologically. There's a lotta shit going on out
there that's directly relevant to your work, you just gotta try it out.

~~~
Arizhel
Speaking personally, I have a bunch of interests outside of work, many of
which do not involve a keyboard. However, I also have an interest in
programming projects, though I don't get as much time as I'd like to pursue
them. Why would I want to do more programming at home when I do that all day
at work? Simple: at work, I'm not working on _my_ project, nor do I get to do
it the way _I_ want. At home, I can do whatever I want for my project, and I
can do it any way I please, organizing my code however I want, using whatever
OS on my computer I want, having whatever kind of workstation setup I want,
and not having to use a computer that's hobbled by IT.

~~~
warcher
Fair enough, I been doing the startup thing for so long, I forget about big
company problems. My typical workday is probably a lot more wild west than the
average coder's. I imagine there are a lot of people out there whose
creativity is somewhat stifled in their work. Many times it takes everything I
have to keep the lights on around here.

------
taurath
One thing to point out - there are hundreds of thousands of fully capable
programmers out there who could easily be trained in the languages of the day
in the right environment or business, but there are next to no places willing
to train someone.

Whether thats a jr. frontend job or a senior backend job but Java instead of
C# (or vice versa), people would rather spend months with a position unfilled
than take a risk on training someone to do better. Its hilarious with all the
"right to work" states that you could basically just try someone out and get
rid of them if they don't work out that it always seems like too much trouble
to invest in someone's learning and get a good and usually pretty loyal
engineer out of it.

~~~
catshirt
i think on paper everyone will agree with you. i've hired for [insert specific
language] and struggled with the same contradiction.

the hard part is there is no obvious cost/reward outcome. the ideal scenario
is hiring someone with the relevant knowledge immediately. so you shoot for
that. a month in you're saying "we're close now, though...". when do you cut
your losses?

hiring someone who doesn't know your stack comes with some extra risk, and
compared to alternatives, seems like settling.

~~~
flukus
> hiring someone who doesn't know your stack comes with some extra risk, and
> compared to alternatives, seems like settling.

Is that risk significant in the grand scheme of things? Especially considering
how many have used a particular stack incorrectly for years. I have an MVC
project around here that is very much a webforms project in MVC clothing.

~~~
catshirt
depends on the project. and your hiring timeline. and a lot of other things...

i mostly agree with you. i did try to soften it by saying "some" extra risk.
as in, the net risk is > 0.

------
mikestew
Sounds like my predicted outcome for a lot of folks I knew back in the day.
Got into the industry because dollars, didn't particularly like it, so when
(for example) COBOL dies off their career dies with it.

I'm from the same era, how did I avoid it? I never knew just one language, for
starters. Unlike the author's father, I never waited around for someone else
to train me. I bought a book and wrote throw-away projects in Delphi, VB, or
whatever. FoxPro (a primary source of my income for a period) died a slow
death? Good thing I know .NET (granted, working on the MSFT VS team kind of
helped with that). IOW, I didn't sit around and wait for $IT (for various
values of whatever we're waiting for) to come to me or be served to me.

So why doesn't everyone else do that? Because I wasn't learning Delphi with an
eye on a job, it just looked cool and I thought it might at some point come in
handy. People that got into this field for the money don't do that. They see
the hands on the clock go to 5:01 and don't think about computers until 8:59
the next day, at least that's my guess. Would I be a lawyer for twice what I
make currently? Oh, hell, no. No amount of money can make up for half my
waking hours spent doing something that doesn't look like fun. Don't go into a
computer-related field just because of the money, either.

~~~
notgood
I get a lot of flag for saying this but it's the same reason most girls don't
get into programming or math; it's no fun for them, at least not near the same
ratio as boys; as it is observable from an early age. Just like (sadly)
fighting is more fun for males so are logic puzzles; and that's fine; except
now it gets framed as a discrimination issue.

~~~
jordwest
> it's no fun for them

Have you considered that maybe it's "no fun" for them because the societal
expectations of what girls and boys should enjoy begin from an early age?

Perhaps the forms of play that lead many to programming (eg building things
with lego) aren't encouraged as much as playing with dolls. These pressures
and expectations come from family and friends from the day we are born, it's
the classic problem of separating nature vs nurture.

~~~
mehaveaccount
Male here, legos bored me. I do computers because I like computers. My
parents, working class government employees, constantly pestered me to follow
them and always asked me what anyone could possibly do with math and computers
besides be an accountant, actuary, or teach those subjects in highschool. But
like most males I had a driving interest in computers so I couldn't be
dissuaded.

~~~
drblast
My parents, 1987: "What are you going to do with that? You can't just sit in
front of the computer all day for the rest of your life."

Me, 2017: "How do you like me NOW?!"

It's easy to forget that in the 1980's in the U.S. being obsessed with
computers was not a highly regarded trait. The idea then that much of our work
in the future would completely revolve around them was insanity to most
people.

------
satysin
I don't really _get_ this blog post.

Why couldn't his father self-teach some other languages? He doesn't need
professionally taught courses, just a couple of books from Amazon and he would
be able to get some projects up on Github to pad his resume. I can appreciate
finding the time to do this while working shifts as a bus driver would be hard
but why didn't he do this _before_ it got to that situation?

Sorry if I come across as rude/uncaring but I have seen people working 2 jobs
and still be able to self-learn web development with no programming
background/education. I don't understand why his father couldn't have helped
himself a bit more during his career.

~~~
ergothus
I have a very similar reaction. I _can_ say that when I worked in (state)
govt, I encountered this mentality that nothing could be released without
"training" everyone. From this, I guess one of two conclusions are true:

* There exists a myth that people cannot learn without training that some people have bought into.

OR

* There is a collection of people that are (currently) not effective learners without a teacher

I can have some sympathy for the latter - I definitely learn faster when I can
ask questions and understand best practices earlier - but I'm uncertain if
anyone that just doesn't learn well without instruction are doing so because
they never learned how to learn, or if it's something fundamental, like some
people prefer to listen to music while working and others can't stand it.

~~~
phil21
It's much more fundamental than that. I think a lot of folks who tend to
frequent sites like HN truly live in an echo chamber - a good one, but still a
bubble. I think it's difficult for many here to imagine that "learning stuff"
just isn't fun for most folks. When I was a kid my idea of having a fun night
was staying up late reading the encyclopedia under the covers. Most people
hear that and find it absolutely absurd - as if I was torturing myself since
they cannot imagine doing something like that for fun.

The simple fact is _most humans_ do not enjoy learning for the sake of
learning. They are in no way self-directed whatsoever, and expecting anything
resembling even a large minority of the population to exhibit such traits will
leave you hating humanity.

It has taken me many years to come to terms with that conclusion. Most folks
are simply mentally lazy - or being charitable the modern world does not
trigger whatever their interests are and motivate them.

I've struggled with how to explain to my "less successful" friends what this
means, with little success. It means showing up on time for your 9-5 job and
working hard at it is the absolute minimal bar for success. Most people _do
not_ understand that fact, and vehemently disagree with it as a universal
truth of life. But it is. The folks who are consistently successful in life
are the ones hustling 24x7 - where most of their effort is in learning and
furthering their career prospects - not just toil for someone else at a
salaried job. They are successful largely due to the fact others simply don't
put in the effort they do.

~~~
ergothus
I can't say that your summary matches my life - I've been pretty lazy, but
having just enough work ethic about certain things and a drive to learn and a
crapton of dumb luck has seen me "successful". I have friends at various
points along the financial success/security path, and I only see strong
correlation between working hard and success at the very low end.

> It means showing up on time for your 9-5 job and working hard at it is the
> absolute minimal bar for success

I've violated your absolute minimum - I'm not saying you can and should slack
off all the time, but at the same time slavish devotion to fulfilling a 1950s
viewpoint doesn't actually get you that far either.

> The simple fact is most humans do not enjoy learning for the sake of
> learning.

Probably and sadly true. I _suspect_ that it's because we (society) do a
terrible job of TEACHING learning, so only those with the right
parents/friends/genetic happenstance learn it. But that' is an unproven
suspicion. It might also be a fundamental truth of the current state of human
evolution. ( I have a theory that brain usage is "expensive" calorie-wise, and
we've evolved to minimize the actual exercise of our brains. My theory gets a
little support when they find that starvation/crisis spurs more energy
directed to the brain, but I've not seen anything that has actually studied my
theory. On the gripping hand, I've not really tried to check either, because
that seems like work. [joke]).

------
greenpizza13
While I feel sympathy for the father in this situation, being a software
engineer (or data scientist) transcends the language which you happen to be
working with. People who work in software learn quickly that the language you
use is just a tool, like any other, which you should use for the right task at
the right time.

Of course, not everyone will be an expert in every language. But having the
ability to shift when needed to an unfamiliar language is what really makes a
person a software engineer and not just a programmer.

~~~
jernfrost
I used to think this, but it is not entirely true. Sure learning new languages
is easy. I do it all the time. However learning the environment, libraries,
tools and businesses which go with these languages is a huge undertaking.

I've been a desktop C++ developer for most of my career. I switched to iOS
development for the last years. It was doable because Objective-C is native
language like C++ and mobile apps work in similar fashion to desktop apps.

However I found doing Android development a huge barrier. The language Java
was the easy part. The hard part was a completely different ecosystem,
thinking and tools. With iOS it is easy, you got clang, xCode, cocoapods,
homebrew and mostly apple tools and libraries to deal with. With Android there
is a myriad of Java IDEs. There are several build systems. And each build
system is seemingly huge and complicated, doubling and package or library
distribution tools. Then there is a all sorts of testing systems, and the fact
that Java is a world to its own. You don't use all the commands and tools a
regular Unix guy might be used to like otool, nm, make, gdb, lldb, ld, gcc
etc.

Still it was kind of doable.

Enter Java Script and web development. It confused the hell out of me. A
completely different way of thinking of software development compared to what
somebody used to native GUI toolkits running on one computer is used to. You
got a client and server existing on different computers which have to
synchronize. You don't debug in an IDE but in the browser.

And in some ways it feels like Java Script is harder for people who actually
know a bunch of languages. You know there are common sensible ways of doing
things which lots of languages do whether that is C/C++, Go, Java, Swift,
Objective-C, Python, Ruby or Lua. But Oh no, JavaScript has the most odd ball
nonsensical way of doing things. It is hard to get, because you can't figure
out why on earth anybody would make the language behave this way. If you
simply stopped thinking and didn't realize how stupid it was, you'd probably
be better off.

~~~
flukus
Android feels like another world even if you know java and are used to GUI
development in higher level languages. Even for java android is particularly
reliant on tooling, to the point where if the IDE screws up it's easier to
recreate the project and copy the files in than it is to debug the tooling.

In contrast, java with something like swing (not something that I would
recommend learning BTW) would feel pretty familiar to you.

------
danso
My parents were refugees from the Vietnam War and studied computer science as
new careers. Today, judging from how confused they are about things like
Google and how they never talked about programming at home or particularly
encouraged me to go into programming, my perception is that they were not very
good programmers.

However, even though the company they worked at for 20+ years outsourced most
of its coding work, they had jobs easily through retirement because while the
Java work could be outsourced, the COBOL work couldn't. Unlike the OP, COBOL
helped my family eke out a lower-middle-class existence, which wasn't too bad
of a thing, all things considered.

~~~
flor1s
I don't know about your parents, but I think many old people who used to do
technical work are not that good with modern technology.

------
jstewartmobile
I hate to punt for "the man" on this one, but the story is dripping with
motivation issues, and getting any kind of on-the-job training in the past 20
years (even if it's not very good) is a rare blessing.

Whenever I trained someone up, they'd snag a better job offer within months.
That's why industry dumps all of it off on college/self-study/github/etc.

If they had some kind of claw-back, like police academies, things might be
different, but why even bother with that when state universities are cranking-
out eager young graduates by the busload, and we have a visa program that is
ripe with abuse.

------
bronz
theres a really cool dude on youtube who makes programming videos -- he will
implement a raycasting engine or crack old games or do whatever. one very
common comment is "why are you not a programmer when you can program so well"
and his answer is really interesting. he used to to write web apps but the
deadlines were so stressful that he decided to be a bus driver instead. where
he lives the government will retrain you and find you a job if you decide to
switch (i think he lives in scandanavia) so he did it. apparently hes way
happier now.

~~~
jodrellblank
Who?

~~~
ymln
[https://www.youtube.com/user/Bisqwit](https://www.youtube.com/user/Bisqwit)

------
brooklynmarket
As a friend related the other day, "wow, all these coders, they want to be
woodworkers now. What's up with that?"

Working in a fine woodworking, cabinet makers setup, vs hacking C#? Your call.

PS, you can make 3X in a week learning how to use a router, but keep it under
your hat. And the girls LOVE carpenters for some wild and crazy reason.

~~~
ChristianGeek
As a bald man, a router under my hat would be extremely painful!

------
dandr01d
Sounds like your dad is blaming everyone except himself. He could've learned R
himself instead of blaming the training service. Learning a new programming
language is something every programmer does.

------
ryandrake
Serious question, I honestly don't know this:

Is this expectation that you're always on the learning treadmill* an issue for
other professions like doctors and lawyers? For example, do doctors _need_ to
continue to stay abreast of the latest surgical techniques in order to remain
employed? Or do they do they consider it an optional activity, to maybe work
at a better hospital or something?

* I hate to put it that way, and while I'm a big fan of always learning, not everyone is, and the "technology treadmill" is definitely a thing.

~~~
RandomOpinion
> _Is this expectation that you 're always on the learning treadmill an issue
> for other professions like doctors and lawyers?_

Of course. A certain minimum is even required by law for licensure for some
professions.

" _For dedicated professional engineers, earning a PE license is just the
beginning. Many state licensing boards require that PEs maintain and improve
their skills through continuing education courses and other opportunities for
professional development._ "

[https://www.nspe.org/resources/licensure/maintaining-
license](https://www.nspe.org/resources/licensure/maintaining-license)

" _Continuing legal education (CLE), also known as mandatory or minimum
continuing legal education (MCLE) or, in some jurisdictions outside the United
States, as continuing professional development, consists of professional
education for attorneys that takes place after their initial admission to the
bar. Within the United States, U.S. attorneys in many states and territories
must complete certain required CLE in order to maintain their U.S. licenses to
practice law._ "

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continuing_legal_education](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continuing_legal_education)

" _Almost all states require some amount of continuing professional
development education and training be completed by teachers to maintain their
licenses. Specific requirements for license renewal vary greatly from state to
state, and are often quite complex._ "

[http://www.teachtomorrow.org/continuing-education-for-
teache...](http://www.teachtomorrow.org/continuing-education-for-
teachers/#four)

" _More than 40 jurisdictions require that architects complete continuing
education to update their professional skills to renew their license while
additional states are considering such requirements._ "

[http://www.ncarb.org/Continuing-Education/Continuing-
Educati...](http://www.ncarb.org/Continuing-Education/Continuing-Education-
Requirements-by-State.aspx)

~~~
vonmoltke
PE continuing education requirements are a joke compared to what this industry
expects. Texas, where I used to work and considered getting my PE requires 15
hours _per year_. What person here in their right mind is going to claim a
software engineer can keep current with that little independent study?

~~~
RandomOpinion
15 hours is just the minimum that Texas chose to require for continued
licensure. I'd be rather surprised if successful PEs didn't spend as much time
in independent study as successful software developers.

~~~
vonmoltke
First off, I wouldn't be. I used to work with them.

Second off, your post, and the others in this chain, are putting forward CE
requirements in other professions as evidence that the at-times insane self-
learning required by this industry is not unusual. It is. CE requirements are
a joke and hold no weight in this discussion. If you want to argue other
professions have similar impositions to ours, you need to do it without
referring to these requirements.

------
wyldfire
> He’s kept looking for computer programming work, and bought a book on Java,
> but the life of the poor is hard, and erratic bus driving schedules coupled
> with living paycheck-to-paycheck makes learning programming hard, especially
> without a decent computer.

I hate to be unsympathetic because I won the birth lottery by far. But these
days it seems like you could learn python or java on a $50 used tablet or
raspberry pi. Is it really so hard to learn to program for the poor? (serious
question, not being critical)

~~~
IanDrake
The problem we have when thinking about poor people is that we think they're
people just like us, but with no money.

That's not the way to think about it.

You would be astonished at their ignorance and, as an effect of that
ingnorance, laziness. They literally have no idea what is possible. No idea
what effort could achieve.

It's typically not their fault either. Someone with influence in their life
has to set an example and show them the way otherwise they'll never understand
how to unlock their potential.

~~~
toothbrush
You might want to consider this, too:
[https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2013/11/your-
br...](https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2013/11/your-brain-on-
poverty-why-poor-people-seem-to-make-bad-decisions/281780/) \- be mindful of
your privilege when judging other people. Since you're posting on HN, you're
probably already in a few multi-sigma-from-mean categories.

~~~
IanDrake
I am mindful. I'm speaking from the experience of being that ignorant person
and being lucky enough to have a few people in my life that showed me the way.

------
Animats
It's not so much the programming languages now, it's the build tools and
middleware.

Classically, UNIX used the same build tools (make, shell, SCCS/RCS) across
languages. Libraries across languages tended to be similar. For a while, you
could use Eclipse as an IDE on many different languages. Now, each language
has its own quite different tooling and libraries. This makes language
switching a pain.

------
flor1s
I'm still quite young, but I notice it is harder for me to learn new concepts
or programming languages than it was when I was a teenager. I can imagine many
programming jobs have little room for learning. I'm still a PhD student so
learning is part of my daily "work". I don't have a family to take care of
either. I can imagine that in 10-20 years I will hardly have any time to learn
new things and will have to rely on what I already know.

Also I frequently hear people say "programming is easy" or "you don't want to
be programming all of your life, right?", so maybe people think they don't
need to study new languages, because they think they will actually need to do
less programming in the future as they get more senior jobs. I'm not sure if
they are right or wrong.

I really hope I can spend a large part of my life learning about new things,
and I hope those things I learn will help keep me employed. At the same time,
it's hard to predict whether the things we study today will still be relevant
by the time we are in a position to apply what we learned.

------
habitue
> Perhaps this article can serve as a warning to those who don’t love
> programming what they should expect in order to stay relevant in their
> career. And if what it takes is a turn-off, maybe they should pursue a
> different line of work.

This is such a reasonable summary. Many times here I see people comment on HN
"Not everybody loves coding side projects in their spare time, and that should
be ok. I have more important things to do..." This attitude is fine, but just
know you're setting yourself up for a letdown when your job doesn't prepare
you for the next "fad language" that ends up making or breaking employment
decisions.

------
OliverJones
If software development is your vocation as well as your job, and you want a
career, then you better not be dependent on any particular language.

My first job, in high school, was programming a CDC 160-A in assembly language
to render characters on a Calcomp plotter, fast.

I've done FORTRAN (II, IV), some PL/I, APL, RATFOR, Bliss, C, PERL, PHP, Java
yadda yadda yadda who cares?

The point is: you want a career in a fast moving engineering field? Plan on
reading at least one technical book a month for the rest of your life. Yes,
for the rest of your life. 120 books a decade.

(Tim O'Reilly's Safari Books Online service is a good way to do this without
having to hire two moving vans when you move.)

------
relics443
I don't think this is language specific as much as it is about keeping up to
date in your field of employment.

------
wruza
Many of us spend time on various entertainment sites with active content
discussions, HN is one of them. And the state of these communities is highly
dependent on owner's and moderators' power and vision on their evolution.
Moderation is a thing that projects an experience on newcomers, who always do
the same wrong things, because they are at the beginning of their way to be
mature participants.

Otoh, there are few mostly uncontrolled communities that go through newbie
hell via some sort of elitism/indifference to them. When you spend few years
in these places, you start to see all the patterns — from newbies to almost
speechless "old" guys with hardened mental armor. You easily estimate the
amount of time your opponent was here (or in similar place) and you see where
your discussion goes in terms of "meta". You _feel_ the rotation in that
group, because names change, but thoughts remain. You do not need the
moderator's help to be able to stay. That's great in a sense, but in fact the
community voice consists mostly of immature boys who throw fucks at each other
and argue about things that have no real matter.

This resembles the state of the entire programming industry for me. Each year
we see new "developers" of various grades ready to fight and produce more
complex shit that has no real meaning. Countless new abstractions,
conceptions, frameworks, etc that were already invented before their birth,
but had no chance to jump in their minds because there is no news with cool
design on whatever.io. Really seasoned and experienced guys have no voice in
there, because the management consists of the same unprofessional people who
delegate everything down. You're using 20-year old technology? Ha-ha, the
MODERN way is foobar.js with server-side bazlets, you old loser! You know
nothing! Maybe, but your tech is 2 years old, so you can't be experienced in
it by definition.

I really wish they all just stop and look around. Technology is already there
for decades, you just have to not reinvent it and accept rough edges, because
they are there for a reason. Forced moderation of hyped "modern" junk at
institution level is also welcome, so mainstream doesn't fall into this
madness. Our area is so big that a regular professional starts to understand
everything just around the time his career is over. There is nothing smart in
it, this is pure insanity. /rant

Edit: word order, typo

~~~
jodrellblank
_Technology is already there for decades, you just have to not reinvent it and
accept rough edges, because they are there for a reason._

There isn't just one technology, or one company, or one team, who can sit down
and agree to stop. "People like the Amiga, so we're not going to make a
competing computer, we're just going to fire everyone and go home" \- every
other computer company.

"People like the iPod, but I can play .au files from my Sun workstation
command line, so why doesn't everyone just accept the rough edges?"

"rsync works, who needs DropBox anyway?"

New technology is invented at least partly because rough edges are horrible,
and at least partly because if we (collectively) don't invent stuff, what can
we sell? How can we compete with other businesses?

Why does anyone write? Shakespeare existed so writing should be over.

~~~
wruza
All new shiny things involve learning and making mistakes curve. That should
be compared to different brand new languages and sentence construction
methods, not different authors. Why doesn't anyone invent new languages? Is
english really _that_ good and easy? No, it is horrible in so many ways. But
it is known to ~anyone so anyone can learn it and tell whatever they need to
whoever they need. No need to complement that with chinese or russian, unless
you are both native speakers and have no foreign sides in your business plan.

We have at least math and chemistry notations as special cases, though.

------
Arizhel
Driving a bus??? I frequently wish I was doing something else for a living due
to many complaints I have about the state of this industry these days, but
driving a bus sounds far worse to me. Having to deal with the general public
every day would be a nightmare for me.

~~~
cgmil
Oh, the stories you hear...

------
coldcode
I've known lots of people who got CS degrees when I went to school who now are
no longer employed or doing other things because they assumed nothing would
change. For 35 years I have stayed viable by constantly learning (but also
avoiding just chasing every new thing).

~~~
sotojuan
This affects people 5-10 years into their career and new grads alike. People I
graduated it that thought they could coast on their degree alone without
internships or projects have been unemployed for a year.

The "study CS -> get a job!" myth is no longer true, if it ever was. While the
market is great, you still have to work for a good job.

------
unix
I used Linux/Apache/PHP/MySQL over 16 years and while changed 5 jobs. I am
still learning new programming languages(swift) or some programming languages
I have not learnt yet like embedded C. that is true if you can master one
programming language then you can easier to pickup difference programming
languages.

Thanks for C language and Pascal that basic concept i learnt from high school.

------
icemelt8
My dad was programmer, then he opened a hardware shop (plumbing and sanitary
hardware). And never looked back and made good money

------
krystiangw
True Programmers Never Stop Learning. He can give a changce to Javascript. It
is the most popular programming language now:
[https://jobsquery.it/stats/language/group](https://jobsquery.it/stats/language/group)

------
partycoder
I've met a couple of people like that.

I met an Assembly and C++ programmer on my first job. He was asked to maintain
a Visual Basic project and months later got fired for underperforming.

Then, I met an APL programmer that at some point even owned a consultant firm.
Nowadays he works as a cab driver, barely covering his cab expenses.

~~~
Arizhel
>I met an Assembly and C++ programmer on my first job. He was asked to
maintain a Visual Basic project and months later got fired for
underperforming.

I can imagine why. After coming from an asm/C++ background, he was probably
completely demoralized in having to work in the comparative hell that is
Visual BASIC.

~~~
partycoder
Unfortunately back in my country there wasn't a lot of opportunities for low
level programmers.

------
digitalzombie
From my experiences R is easy for statistician to learn and Python is easier
for cs people to learn.

Post ignore the fact that R usually have bleeding edge statistic package out
there most of the time compare to Python.

I'm going to learn Python but because I believe their Neural Network libraries
are better. And it makes me better rounded but I'm not going to pretend as if
Python is some how faster than R. It doesn't matter. These two languages are
for modeling stage. Once your model hit production people are using something
else C++, Java, etc..

Also seems like his father isn't well rounded enough to pick up another
language.

Which leads to learn and play with as many different language out there
especially paradigm, it'll make you a better programmer in general and you'll
pick up language faster. Because of similar paradigm and because syntax evolve
over time or adapted from other languages.

------
josh_fyi
I thought that COBOL programmers were in great demand, for maintenance of old
systems, and increasingly so as old programmers retire.

~~~
satysin
A friend's father is a COBOL programmer. He works for a bank (shocker!) and
has said that while there are jobs they are not available all over the country
but mostly limited to certain areas. So while a Java or PHP programmer will be
able to find work pretty much anywhere a COBOL programmer might only find a
dozen companies with openings and mostly in places like London, New York, etc.
Places with big financial institutions.

------
ar15saveslives
> He did eventually realize this and sought employers who would train him

I can't understand that. Modern programming is not like engineering nuclear
reactors or driving mars rovers. All you need to learn is a cheap laptop,
mediocre internet connection and passion to learn it.

Just apt-get python/R/whatever and start writing simple things, then more and
more complicated, then your own projects (make your own home automated, after
all), and after a year you'll be able to find an entry-level dev job.

> bought a book on Java but the life of the poor is hard, and erratic bus
> driving schedules coupled with living paycheck-to-paycheck makes learning
> programming hard, especially without a decent computer.

Oh cmon. It's the same bs as "girls don't become programmers, because of
males/stigma/gender-language". If you have interest in programming, you'll
learn it, and won't stop at some "it's enough for resume" level. I,
personally, learned C++, being in army, with night shifts, drills, living for
$150 a month, just because I loved it and used every hour of my spare time to
explore it.

~~~
watwut
To your last paragraph: if the girl think programming is male occupation girls
are not naturaly interested in, she won't consider it nor try it. If she won't
try it, there is no way for her to find out she like it or love it.

I was told multiple times girls are just not good nor interested by people who
knew I plan to study computer science. Had I not met teacher in school who
showed me interesting parts and treated me realy equally, I would have no idea
it can be potentially something for me.

If you would be a guy who work in kindergaden and knit for hobby, your
theories about gender not matering would hold something. You have
systematically picked occupations that have no risk in feminizing you nor has
"but women do it naturally better" element of.

~~~
ar15saveslives
"Not consider nor try it" means that she doesn't have interest in programming.
You don't need anyone's opinion to start programming or knitting, or learning
Mandarin. If you like it, you do it for yourself, and then someone starts
paying money for things that you know and love.

P.S.: it's funny but I knitted. My aunt taught me and I knitted a scarf. It
rolled up and became a tube, and I lost interest after that fail. :-)

~~~
Arizhel
That's funny, I knitted too when I was a kid. It didn't last very long either.
I think I was about 8 years old.

I have to agree: if you like something, you just do it. But I guess a lot of
people just can't bear to do anything without getting approval from their
social circle first.

------
smnplk
Now that your dad can't drive a bus anymore, for god's sake, give him that
SICP book to read.

------
mythrwy
Today is one of those days when driving a bus actually doesn't sound so bad.

~~~
Tempest1981
Or maybe driving for FedEx/UPS... I think I'd like the varied routes, and
learning new neighborhoods/streets.

------
rhapsodic
I feel for the author's father, but I think the author knows the score. His
father made a bad decision to assume he could ride out the rest of his career
on his COBOL skills.

~~~
adamredwoods
So a programming career is so fragile that one mistake kills all past
experience gained? I don't think mistakes should be so costly, and in the
article the father tried to remedy mistakes and was met with misfortune.

~~~
rhapsodic
_> So a programming career is so fragile that one mistake kills all past
experience gained? I don't think mistakes should be so costly, and in the
article the father tried to remedy mistakes and was met with misfortune._

I don't think he made one just one mistake. COBOL was already in decline when
he made the initial career switch in 1995. So every year that he complacently
did nothing while his marketability as a programmer declined along with it was
a mistake.

All in all, I think he's fortunate he was able to make a decent living as long
as he did during that particular time period, knowing only COBOL.

