

Yahoo and the Objectification of Women - Prefect
http://praetorianprefect.com/archives/2009/10/yahoo-and-the-objectification-of-women/

======
xiaoma
I didn't see much of any backlash here in Taiwan. You have to consider that
models are present at pretty much _any_ tech related exhibition, be it Acer,
Sony or whoever. There are also still regular religious festivals based on the
Chinese calendar that involve naked women dancing on floats. You don't see
them in Taipei city, but in the southern part of Taiwan they aren't uncommon.

This article has two parts-- someone flipping out about something that's
normal in Taiwan, and then a list of dire statistics about the US. It doesn't
make much sense.

Throwing in the ".69 cents on the dollar claim" that ignores hours worked,
experience and profession eliminated what little credibility remained from the
rant at the top of the article.

~~~
praetorian
Corporations don't sponsor religious festivals. Models are present at US
events, I think the uproar is about the lap dancing, etc.. Not sure why you
can't link the general attitude towards women in the technology space and the
lack of women in the technology space. People (maybe not you) were
uncomfortable with what was going on.

The .69/dollar claim is as old as time, cited all over the place. Has nothing
to do with any external factor like hours, experience, etc.: it demonstrates
that all other things being equal a woman is paid less for the same work.

Don't question my credibility when you don't understand the foundational
facts.

~~~
xiaoma
_"The .69/dollar claim is as old as time, cited all over the place. Has
nothing to do with any external factor like hours, experience, etc.: it
demonstrates that all other things being equal a woman is paid less for the
same work."_

That's just not true. That statistic _ignores_ all other factors such as hours
of work per week, experience, danger, and a host of other factors. It quite
literally compares the salary of people with years of experience who are
working 60 hours a week directly with new hires of the same job title who are
working 40 hours a week. It lumps them all together. The 76 cents (or 72 cents
or X cents) on the dollar myth has been debunked very thoroughly, though it
still enjoys popularity amongst feminists.

Study after study which has actually controlled for factors such as
experience, hours worked, travel required, etc have found very little pay
disparity. There are a number of more forceful articles on the subject on BW,
the Cato Institute and other similar sites. This NCPA article is a gentler
explanation of The Wage Gap Myth:

<http://www.ncpa.org/pub/ba392>

~~~
Prefect
Based on your analysis, that statistic does not hold up and will be removed
from the article. We'll credit you on why its being removed.

Thank you for taking the time to educate me on this.

------
plinkplonk
Funny how American morality/ideology is being applied to condemn something
(normal as per the Taiwanese) happening in Taiwan. As someone mentioned in
Reddit, if non Americans were to object to some American custom, say people
hugging in public, Americans would (be justified) in flipping them off. I am
sick and tired of people telling other people how they ought to live to
satisfy some bullshit political correctness agenda.

~~~
praetorian
Hardly comes to the level of trivial political correctness. Let's take the
American custom of bombing other countries. Would you feel justified objecting
to that? Is it possible that you can see something as wrong, in your opinion,
when its not happening in your immediate geographic area? Reading papers from
the women's movement in Taiwan, this doesn't appear to be completely accepted
out there either.

But the article doesn't even go there. There is no general condemnation of
this activity in Taiwan, frankly we don't care that much. What's objected to
are the actions of an American company in Taiwan.

Sorry, no agenda here, no axe to grind with Yahoo. Yahoo is an American
company (like it or not), and takes ownership of anything it slaps its brand
on abroad.

~~~
DanielBMarkham
_Let's take the American custom of bombing other countries_

You really believe that Americans regularly bomb other countries as a matter
of custom? Or was that just a bit of hyperbole?

'Cause it makes your entire argument sound tilted.

I've never, ever heard a politician or political commentator recommend bombing
simply because it is a custom, like shaking hands or putting up Christmas
trees.

~~~
Prefect
Hyperbole, as you say.

Taken out of context it means nothing. Taken in context it means that as an
American I acknowledge our actions around the world aren't always right and
don't always make sense.

But this doesn't take away from the validity of the U.S. point of view in this
case. Too often arguments bring in outside factors with generalized phrases:
"Americans are always trying to control what happens abroad" and other such
irrelevant phrases.

Put another way, if you accept that conference dancers are Taiwanese custom,
you should also consider accepting that Americans would view this in a poor
light, and object not that it happens in Taiwan, but that a U.S. company
supports it.

~~~
DanielBMarkham
I'm very happy letting the Taiwanese have their own moral standards about lap
dancers, much the same as I am perfectly happy with letting San Francisco have
its own policy about sex workers.

I try not to get emotionally worked up about something bad, say the absence of
women in IT, and then go on a rampage about some other tangential thing, like
American companies playing into the cultural norms of some other country. In
fact, I would expect American companies to be sensitive to local norms _even
if such actions were unpopular back here._

Haven't we had enough of telling other people what to do? Or are you
specifically focusing on just the American company aspect of it, in which case
how would you expect an American company to act overseas? How would you act?
You personally? Would you go and tell the naked women dancing that they are
degrading themselves? Would you protest the various phallic parades and such
that other countries have? Would you make a scene over airlines that still
only have women flight attendants in cutesy uniforms? Are you going to
sacrifice your life's work because some other people do things that the folks
back home think or strange or distasteful?

What I see -- not from you personally, but from a lot of commentators -- is
people following a script for what to be outraged about.

I know I wouldn't feel comfortable with the dancers. So guess what? I'd leave.
Easy problem. Easily solved. No need to wring your hands, blather on at length
about sexism, or any of that other belly-button-gazing nonsense. If you want
more women in IT, hire some.

~~~
Prefect
I think American companies do try to be respectful of local norms when it
suits a goal, for example when they are trying to do business in that country.
I would agree that in order to do business in another country, they would
suspend their views of that society's norms. I think a business man or woman
in that country would and should go along to get along to be successful.

I also think American acceptance of what American companies do abroad can be
stretched beyond reason, as in a case where it is not a company accepting the
existence of norms that would be controversial at home, but rather promoting
them. I think that's whats happening here, as people are quick to let this
case off the hook under the reasoning of cultural differences.

Yes, we shouldn't be telling other people what to do. No I don't walk up to
women in strip bars and tell them anything (nor do I think anyone else
should). Having been abroad, I don't attempt to convey any belief system on
another culture, rather I attempt to learn while I'm there.

But this isn't about anyone's personal actions, its about an American company
sanctioning something it should not have in another country, irrespective of
that society's norms. It is that American company realizing that a critical
mass of its consumers will be uncomfortable with what they're looking at, and
heading issues like this off beforehand. Its about being smart when it comes
to your global brand.

So I agree with a number of your points, but I didn't argue against them in
the first place. You hit the nail on the head that the specific objection this
article cites is with the "American company aspect of it". That is the
problem. They set up the corporate karaoke bar, they didn't just go to one.
That means that examples such as cultural parades and local clubs don't work
in this case. Further this is not an American business man or woman attending
an event at a Taiwanese company (where local customs would have to be
respected).

Yahoo realizes this, and thus they apologized.

I think the article is fairly clinical in its analysis. It makes three points:
A. this is what happened B. an American company has to understand that its
brand image at home can be affected abroad when those at home will react
negatively to what they're seeing C. Women are discouraged from careers in IT,
this doesn't help, we would be better off with more women in IT. The only
mildly baiting word is objectifying: treating something as an object, which is
what goes on at strip clubs and the like (male or female). So no one went on a
rampage (I don't think), or a rant, or is emotionally worked up.

However you clearly state you are reacting to what a lot of commentators are
saying and the issue at large, as well as what you see as a script for people
who outrage easily. I may be lumping reactions together, if I am let me know.
I respect that point, and in part share that opinion. Some of the arguments
being put forth either way are too simplistic, and ignore or fail to consider
nuances such as the cultural differences in play.

This is an aside in my opinion, but a corporate gathering, is not so easy to
leave. Its why so many financial firms face these after the fact lawsuits in
the US from women who were made, or feel they were made, to attend meetings in
strip clubs or put up with degrading behavior in order to survive in the
workplace. I don't think that's related to this case, but it answers your
point about just being able to leave.

In other to hire more women in IT, we need more women studying IT, which we
don't have. Yahoo's portrayal of its corporate culture in Monday's news
doesn't help that cause. That is the relationship between the two. Its not our
original observation, we picked it up as a sentiment viewing the discourse on
Twitter and related sources. We agree that creating a workplace environment
that is not hospitable to all will affect all companies ability to attract
workers.

As more being omphaloskeptic or navel gazers, its an IT blog, what's there to
it if not reflective analysis of things that go on in IT?

~~~
DanielBMarkham
_what's there to it if not reflective analysis of things that go on in IT?_

I think you are exactly correct -- as long as you separate a moral case from a
practical one.

I was a bit cranky the other day. Sorry if I went over-the-top in my argument.
I'm genuinely concerned about things like Google cooperating with finding
Chinese political dissidents and things like this seem to dilute the cause of
bigger problems, at least in my mind.

------
jdminhbg
Credit to Yahoo for just apologizing and not blaming their Taiwanese
subsidiary when they probably had nothing to do with it, but... they probably
had nothing to do with it.

That it happened in Taiwan doesn't make it right, but it does mean that it has
basically nothing to do with the gender balance of computer-related fields in
the US.

~~~
praetorian
Yahoo is responsible for where and on what it slaps its brand, IMO. Yes, would
have been good to have some Taiwanese stats (don't see any), so point taken.

------
quant18
Yeah, seems these days there is more of a backlash in Asia against using
scantily-clad female models this way for promotional purposes of unrelated
products ... few months back there was similar noise in HK about female models
at book fairs:
[http://www.thestandard.com.hk/news_detail.asp?sid=24568241&#...</a>

