
Litvinenko Inquiry Publishes Report - tallanvor
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/putin-implicated-in-fatal-poisoning-of-former-kgb-spy-at-posh-london-hotel/2016/01/21/2c0c5052-bf92-11e5-98c8-7fab78677d51_story.html
======
dfkf
"Fourth, the causes espoused by Mr Litvinenko – such as the FSB’s alleged
responsibility for the apartment bombings, the war in Chechnya, and alleged
collusion between President Putin and other members of his administration and
organised crime – were areas of particular sensitivity to the Putin
administration. "

"Finally, there was undoubtedly a personal dimension to the antagonism between
Mr Litvinenko on the one hand and President Putin on the other. The history
between the two men dated back to their (only) meeting in 1998, at a time when
Mr Putin was the newly appointed head of the FSB and Mr Berezovsky and Mr
Litvinenko still hoped that he might implement a programme of reform. In the
years that followed,Mr Litvinenko made repeated highly personal attacks on
President Putin, culminating in the allegation of paedophilia in July 2006"

That is from the report. Call me a Putin-apologist, an agent from Olgino, but
these motives look like garbage. There is an entire industry of "making highly
personal attacks" on Putin and blaming all kinds of things on him. The name of
these "Putin's critics" is legion, they have been doing it for more than a
decade, and they've had zero success... that is, of course, if by "success"
you mean making Russians believe what they say, and not just selling shocking
stories about the darkest secrets of the KayGeeBee to British tabloids...

~~~
scarmig
I'll go with "Putin-apologist." Why act like pointing out an obvious motive is
the focus or even a main point of the report? What about substantive points
like:

"Traces of the isotope were later found in many of the same places where the
two alleged killers had visited: The hotel's bathroom, their hotel room, a
board room where they conducted an earlier meeting and the plane they traveled
aboard."

We're not talking about traces of carbon or lead, here.

~~~
crdoconnor
There's less doubt about Lugovoy's / Kovtun's than there is Putin's
involvement.

~~~
orf
Of course not, Putin is not an idiot and wouldn't leave a trail to him after
ordering someone killed on British soil. There is no doubt about Lugovoy or
Kovtun's involvement, but directly or indirectly Putin is responsible for his
agents running around poisoning people with polonium (edit: not plutonium!).
The fact they are refusing to extradite them is telling as well.

~~~
crdoconnor
>Putin is not an idiot and wouldn't leave a trail to him after ordering
someone killed on British soil.

Perhaps but that's not evidence.

>There is no doubt about Lugovoy or Kovtun's involvement, but directly or
indirectly Putin is responsible for his agents running around poisoning people
with plutonium.

That's not evidence either. Besides, they were ex-KGB / FSB agents.

>The fact they are refusing to extradite them is telling as well.

Let's reverse this. Would Obama agree to extradite a Republican ex-CIA agent
with powerful friends who flew to Moscow and killed Edward Snowden without his
knowledge?

Can you imagine what the political fallout would be if he did? He'd be
characterized as a mixture of powerless, hypocritical, traitorous and anti-
American all at once by both friends and enemies. Political suicide at worst;
own goal at best.

------
joosters
T-shirt sent to Boris Berezovsky (another Putin critic who died) by Lugovoy in
2010:

front:
[https://twitter.com/gordonrayner/status/690131788946096128/p...](https://twitter.com/gordonrayner/status/690131788946096128/photo/1)

back:
[https://twitter.com/gordonrayner/status/690132000980729857/p...](https://twitter.com/gordonrayner/status/690132000980729857/photo/1)

~~~
rdancer
Why does the FSB threaten a Russian in (bad) English, is this a James Bond
movie?

------
sklivvz1971
"Putin had a personal motive for wanting Litvinenko dead, and that the
president would likely have had to approve a high-stakes operation to
assassinate the former KGB operative on British soil."

In other words, there is no evidence, just "cui prodest".

~~~
tomp
Amongst others who had personal motives for wanting Litvinenko dead are the US
president and UK prime minister, so that they could smear the incident all
over Putin.

Recently, I found myself not believing anything coming out of the media
(Western and rest of the world alike) if it at all supports the prior
interests of the owners/regulators. For example, did North Korea really hack
Sony, or were they just the most convenient actor to blame?

~~~
pjc50
Other way round: Litvinenko was killed years ago, and speculation that it was
done by Russian intelligence broke out immediately. The formal investigation
was held back until now. It's quite likely that it's only being investigated
and publicly blamed on Russia because relations have _already_ gone bad.

------
ajuc
After 2002 Moscow theather terror attack some people (including Litvinienko)
suggested FSB was behind the attack to justify harsher policy on Chechenia,
and to increase popular support for Putin.

> An independent investigation of the event was undertaken by Russian
> politicians Sergei Yushenkov, Sergei Kovalev, journalist Anna Politkovskaya,
> Hoover Institute scholar John B. Dunlop, and former FSB officers Aleksander
> Litvinenko and Mikhail Trepashkin. According to their version, FSB knew
> about the terrorist group's arrival in Moscow and directed them to the
> theater through their agent provocateur Khanpasha Terkibayev ("Abu Bakar"),
> whose name was in the list of hostage takers and who left the theater
> alive.[58][88][89][90] In April 2003 Litvinenko gave information about
> Terkibayev ("the Terkibayev file") to Sergei Yushenkov when he visited
> London. Yushenkov passed this file to Politkovskaya and she was able to
> interview Terkibayev in person.[91] A few days later, Yushenkov was
> assassinated by gunfire in Moscow. Terkibayev was later killed in an
> apparent car crash in Chechnya.

> In June 2003, Litvinenko stated in an interview with the Australian
> television programme Dateline, that two of the Chechen militants involved in
> the siege—whom he named "Abdul the Bloody" and "Abu Bakar"—were working for
> the FSB, and that the agency manipulated the terrorists into staging the
> attack.[92] Litvinenko said: "[w]hen they tried to find [Abdul the Bloody
> and Abu Bakar] among the rotting corpses of dead terrorists, they weren't
> there. The FSB got its agents out. So the FSB agents among Chechens
> organized the whole thing on FSB orders, and those agents were released"

Litvinienko was killed in London, obviously.

Politkovskaya was murdered in her home in Moscow in 7th October 2006.
Ironicaly - 7th October is Putin's birthday.

If Litvinienko and Politkovskaya were right not only Putin has ordered
assasinations of several former spies and journalists criticizing him, but
he's also responsible for hundreds of victims of terrorism in Russia, mostly
regular civilian Russians.

[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moscow_theater_hostage_crisis#...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moscow_theater_hostage_crisis#Claims_of_FSB_involvement)

~~~
PerfectDlite
Strange that you were downvoted.

------
geff82
While being pro-western most of the time, I do not buy into stories like this
one in the current political situation. Might be the truth or might not. It
won't matter that much after all (except for the authors of headlines). Do I
sound pessimistic?

~~~
moonshinefe
Putin being a corrupt, opportunistic dictator doesn't mean you have to believe
Western countries are saints with their foreign policies. They aren't mutually
exclusive.

~~~
tomp
I won't comment on corrupt and dictator, but opportunistic? Hardly. He's just
protecting his interests, in a _very_ transparent and predictable way.

He was the only one supporting Assad and warning about the "Islamist rebels"
in Syria, long before the current crisis happened. Sure, he annexed Crimea,
but what do you think would happen if Russia/China orchestrated a
coup/revolution in e.g. Japan, where US has military bases with significant
strategic importance? Do you think US would peacefully stand away?

~~~
PerfectDlite
Oh, old Russian propaganda about 'US orchestrated a coup'?

I thought it was already gone sour, but apparently some people still believe
in that fairy tale.

~~~
rdancer
Wait, the US effected a government change? I don't believe that has ever
happened! /s

------
tikumo
Why is this weird? It's logical the highest person has to be responsible? The
CIA or MI6 would probably do the same for their spies. I think it's better
than the alternative of an unknown high person within the ranks to make this
call..

~~~
mavdi
Exactly, Russian secret service were either dumb to do it in such obvious way
or just wanted to send a message to other spies. There are plenty of
unexplained British and US spy deaths.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Gareth_Williams](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Gareth_Williams)

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Kelly_(weapons_expert)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Kelly_\(weapons_expert\))

~~~
tlrobinson
_' His decomposing naked remains were found in a red The North Face bag,
padlocked from the outside, in the bath of the main bedroom's en-suite
bathroom.'_

...

 _' A subsequent Metropolitan Police re-investigation concluded that
Williams's death was "probably an accident."'_

... what?

~~~
elthran
Yeah - completely farcical ruling.

However, surely if he was killed to order, the people responsible would make
it far less obvious, and if it was attempted to be covered up - surely it
wouldn't be as poorly done as this?

~~~
mavdi
Yes, but exactly the same logic could be applied to Litvinenko. Death by
plutonium is so obvious that one might think it was meant to be that way.

~~~
elthran
I can see the use of killing someone with a painful, elongated death by
polonium poisoning, it's obvious, and makes a statement. I don't feel the same
can be said for making the body of someone appear in a locked bag though -
people's reactions are closer to "WTF?" rather than shock.

------
DanielBMarkham
Historically, a very interesting use of poison. It seems obvious that the
Russians didn't want this to be a huge mystery -- and probably wanted him to
have a painful death (which he did).

If I remember correctly, there was a chair in the embassy that had this stuff
on it. Nobody could sit on the chair for fear of death. I might be mistaken,
though.

Also historically, I am reminded of Putin meeting one of the superbowl champs.
During the meeting, he takes the guy's superbowl ring!

 _" I took out the ring and showed it to [Putin], and he put it on and he
goes, 'I can kill someone with this ring,'" Kraft said, the New York Post
reported last week.

"I put my hand out and he put it in his pocket, and three KGB guys got around
him and walked out."_

The point is this: the new Russia lacks a lot of the subtlety of the old one.
Aside from anything else, I _think_ that might be a good thing, but I'm not
sure. They're definitely more interesting.

------
kbart
I rarely say that, but this article really does not belong here, on HN. The
title is a clickbait (there's no evidence that Putin ordered or even knew
about the murder neither in the linked article, nor anywhere else so far) and
it only starts political flame wars not a constructive, intellectual
discussion.

------
forgetsusername
On the one hand, crazy story. On the other, what do people think the
implications and dangers are when you're involved in the spy game at the
highest levels?

~~~
tikumo
Exactly, and we like the idea that some James Bond guy is working for "our"
causes and killing spies, but when it happens in real life in a nice
controlled manner.. we act all surprised.

------
mvanvoorden
I don't really see why this would have implications for the relationship
between UK and Russia. Isn't this part of the spy game? When one defects, one
can expect to be killed. I don't believe the UK wouldn't do the same the other
way around. Spying gets you killed, eventually, no matter who you work for.

~~~
kislotnik
Because if he was poisoned with radioactive stuff, there is a possibility that
some of the stuff got into sewage

~~~
TeMPOraL
Wikipedia suggests he ingested ~10 micrograms of polonium. If somehow even
most of it reached the sewage, we'll be talking homeopatic quantities at this
point. It's very unlikely it would go through water treatment and end up in
someone's food in enough quantity to cause harm.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poisoning_of_Alexander_Litvine...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poisoning_of_Alexander_Litvinenko#Po-210_concentration_in_the_body_of_Litvinenko)

~~~
kislotnik
I agree with you, we can estimate the amount of polonium he ingested, but we
surely cannot estimate the amount of polonium involved in that operation.

------
Gatsky
I think it's more likely that this was done to gain favour with Putin, rather
than directly ordered by him. This possibilty is more dreadful in a way,
countless FSB members dreaming up elaborate murders for Putin's detractors
without him having to say anything.

------
ck2
Imagine how dangerous Putin is going to become when his income from oil drys
up this year.

In fact the whole world is going to become way more dangerous with the wealthy
losing their oil income.

Somehow I think the Saudis want it that way, distracts the world from their
crimes.

~~~
digi_owl
I don't think he will be. He does not seem like the impulsive type that will
start something just because.

Frankly over the last few years he has made both Europe and America look like
fools.

~~~
Angostura
Tell that to Crimea and Ukraine.

~~~
digi_owl
Russia had military bases there, did you expect him to just roll over and play
nice when a regime hostile to Russia came to power (under questionable
circumstances no less)?

The rest of it is a shit storm indeed, but i don't know how much control Putin
has over that situation.

~~~
temp
Russia had legal right to a certain number of troops in a specific part of
Crimea (Sevastopol). Everything that happened surrounding the referundum and
the mass deployment of Russian troops from there on was a total farce.

------
dmichulke
On a related note:

[https://www.academia.edu/8776021/The_Snipers_Massacre_on_the...](https://www.academia.edu/8776021/The_Snipers_Massacre_on_the_Maidan_in_Ukraine)

EDIT: There are other stories where Putin / evil Russia / the former Ukrainian
government were accused of something horrible that now turn out to be quite
different, such as this one.

Strangely, I never find these in the big newspapers.

~~~
kbart
Maybe because such stories are usually nothing more than Russian state
sponsored propaganda and gets debunked nearly instantly(0)? Your linked
"paper" doesn't look academic at all, I didn't see any actual evidence there,
just an opinionated "analysis" on some blurry footage.

EDIT. here some more on this "paper":
[http://euromaidanpress.com/2014/10/23/the-snipers-
massacre-i...](http://euromaidanpress.com/2014/10/23/the-snipers-massacre-in-
kyiv-katchanovski-marples/)

0\. [http://www.stopfake.org/en/tag/russian-
propaganda/](http://www.stopfake.org/en/tag/russian-propaganda/),
[http://www.russialies.com/](http://www.russialies.com/) just to name few.

~~~
dmichulke
Your first link indeed seems valuable and I kind of struggle to find good
material both for and against the official version. So thanks for that.

The other links look much more like propaganda themselves.

How do you arrive at the claim that my link is state-sponsored propaganda and
yours are not?

~~~
kbart
_" How do you arrive at the claim that my link is state-sponsored propaganda
and yours are not?"_

Sure, there's no such things as objective mass media, all of them shine a
light from slightly different angles to support their agenda and please
investors, but I'm not aware of such straightforward, blatant lies that
Russian TV (e.g. RT) shows daily on western counterparts. Publicly crucified
boy, pictures from Syria, beyond funny photoshop of Ukrainian fighter jet
downing MH17 etc. All these" stories" were really shown on official Russian
TV. Now please provide such obvious propaganda statements from reputable
western sources. "We lie, because they lie" is the exact statement Russia
propaganda wants you to believe.

~~~
dmichulke
Weapons of Mass Destruction in Iraq

This should account for all civilians killed by Russia in the Ukraine in the
last 3 years plus a security margin of factor 10

Of course, there are others such as Libya, Afghanistan, Pakistan, and more
contested theories such as Syria, but the above should already go to show that
lying is not a unique feature of the Russian government.

~~~
kbart
WMD story in Iraq was not made by the media, but by the US government, special
agencies and the president himself, media only reflected that. Furthermore,
you could find alternative opinions and doubts even then, while in Russia any
voice that goes against the official propaganda gets silenced fast. It's not
quite the same as staging video reports, lying or photoshopping photos.

------
tempodox
Putin is implicated in several murders. If he should be murdered himself, he
will have died a natural death.

~~~
Demiurge
A former spy switched sides and worked for the other side exposing agents and
whatever else MI6 deemed worth paying for. What would be your (or anyones)
decision as head of state? Of course if a country being attacked, a leader is
disliked by a geopolitical foe, those are natural things.

------
rdancer
Misleading title.

~~~
dang
What's a better title?

An article on so hopelessly politicized a topic can't be good for HN, and was
deservedly flagged, but if the title is inaccurate we can still change it.

~~~
rdancer
I suggest: " _The Litvinenko Inquiry_ publishes _Report into the death of
Alexander Litvinenko_ († 2006)"

"Implicated" is misleading; the article said that he "likely approved" the
assassination, which without spin translates to the very mundane fact that he
was the Russia's president and Supreme Commander-in-Chief at that time.

~~~
dang
Ok, changed.

------
enlightenedfool
Insignificant compared to openly murdering heads of states of Iraq, Libya and
causing deaths of hundreds and thousands of people across middle east.

~~~
jpkeisala
So we should not discuss about this murder since there are other more
significant murders?

~~~
htns
This murder has been discussed to death. It was plain enough from the
beginning that Litvinenko was killed for defecting. I don't know why the story
keeps resurfacing.

