

U.K. men get 4-year sentences for Facebook riot posts - noahc
http://news.cnet.com/8301-1023_3-20093556-93/u.k-men-get-4-year-sentences-for-facebook-riot-posts/

======
sfk
Much better article:

[http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/aug/16/facebook-riot-
calls...](http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/aug/16/facebook-riot-calls-men-
jailed)

"Perry Sutcliffe-Keenan, 22, of Latchford, Warrington, used his Facebook
account in the early hours of 9 August to design a web page entitled The
Warrington Riots. The court was told it caused a wave of panic in the town.
When he woke up the following morning with a hangover, he removed the page and
apologised, saying it had been a joke. His message was distributed to 400
Facebook contacts, but no rioting broke out as a result."

~~~
nitrogen
There are a number of technological misrepresentations in your quotation that
would seem inconsequential to the average judge or journalist, but actually
make a huge difference in meaning and effect:

 _...used his Facebook account...to design a web page..._

The word "design" implies stronger intent and effort than is actually required
to post an event to Facebook. "Web page" is not typically used to refer to
user-generated content on Facebook, but rather a distinct presence on the
Internet that exists independently of and can be accessed without assistance
from Facebook. Saying "web page" rather than "Facebook post" implies a much
wider intended exposure than is actually likely.

 _His message was distributed to 400 Facebook contacts..._

This number dropping seems like a journalistic scare tactic. Probably half or
more of the users on Facebook have hundreds of Facebook "friends." Saying the
message "was distributed to 400...contacts" implies deliberate, intended
dissemination of the post. It is far more likely that the post simply ended up
in his news feed automatically, and that many of his 400 friends didn't even
see the post. It is also possible that he invited all of his Facebook friends
to the event, in which case all 400 would receive the invitation, but that is
far, far different from, say, distributing a crime-inciting newsletter to 400
willing subscribers, or sending instructions to an active criminal network of
400 members.

~~~
jellicle
So the guy posted a Facebook event, inviting people to the riots. Humorous,
funny, probably took all of three minutes to accomplish, no harm done, four
years in prison.

Meanwhile the banksters who have stolen billions from the public treasury have
not even been charged, and won't be.

------
rmc
If you want to see how a police state starts, look at what's happening in the
UK now.

~~~
InclinedPlane
More accurately, look at what's been happening over the last several decades.
The population has been disarmed bit by bit, first various gun rights were
taken away until ultimately all gun rights were taken away in a hysterical
response to the Dunblane massacre. Then every weapon was targeted, knives,
batons, everything. Even self-defense rights were taken away, if you use your
own fists in your own home to defend yourself against an attacker you could
potentially go to jail. Meanwhile, British police powers have been growing out
of control, with little to keep them in check. While the world made much note
of the PATRIOT act in the US few people, even in the UK, paid much attention
to the far more sweeping expansion of British police powers undertaken as
"anti-terrorism" measures. All the while moving closer and closer to the ideal
of a completely disempowered populace utterly dependent on the police for any
degree of protection.

~~~
AndyJPartridge
FYI: We have been given the right to self defence in our own homes now.

<http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-13957587>

~~~
InclinedPlane
Given the way British law works I'd wait until a few high-profile cases have
established a firm precedent to get too excited. Nevertheless, compared to the
situation previous this is somewhat of an improvement.

~~~
AndyJPartridge
Indeed. The last high profile case didn't work out very well for the defender
did it, but I guess that was largely due to the robber being shot in the back.
[1]

I think the change is law is to help clarify this a little more. In reality,
once the perps in this case dived out the window, they could have pulled
weapons and started shooting themselves.

I'd sooner face jail than that possibility.

[1] <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tony_Martin_(farmer)>

------
Shenglong
Social media is no different from any other form of communication for trying
to incite crime. Drunkenness is not an excuse for other crimes, and should not
be for this one.

~~~
biafra
Here in Germany drunkenness can reduce your sentence and your criminal
responsibility.

~~~
Shenglong
Spoke too soon. Culture gap I guess

Edit: took out attempt at humor

------
Mvandenbergh
If they'd just generally called for a riot that would be one thing (possibly
still illegal), these guys set a particular time and place which is what did
them in.

Blackshaw at least (because he actually showed up for his planned riot, the
other chap didn't) would go to prison if he did this anywhere in the world.
Even in the USA with its extremely strong protections for speech, inviting
people to meet at a set place and time for the purpose of rioting is illegal.

Even Sutcliffe-Keenan (who at least was smart enough to delete his event from
facebook after he sobered up) basically did the equivalent of calling a bomb-
threat.

~~~
bugsy
Hey we're "having a riot" out by the McDonalds on Orangethorpe Avenue in
Anaheim tomorrow at 4pm. Hope you can make it, assuming free speech still
exists in the US, unlike the british police state we fought to free ourselves
from.

PS come and get me coppers.

<http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=laugh%20riot>

~~~
Mvandenbergh
Free speech does not include planning a riot, any more than it does
threatening to kill someone. This is one of the few exceptions to otherwise
very strong rights to say whatever you want.

~~~
bugsy
If you decide to come to the riot, could you bring the desert plates? Just a
sack of 500 paper ones would be fine.

Famous case from World War I. There was a socialist party guy, Charles
Schenck, who thought war was a bunch of BS and the draft was slavery. He
printed up 15,000 tracts and passed them out to people. Oliver Wendall Holmes,
a fascist if there ever was one, said that criticizing the government was the
same thing as "shouting fire in a crowded theatre" and you had no right to to
such a thing that might bring about a riot. So they sent Schenck to prison.

That was the wrong decision. As you are wrong here.

The problem with this nonsense is it is provoking people to go from posting
gag calls for rioting to realizing the situation is so bad rioting isn't
enough. Armed revolution is what is needed. The violent overthrow of the
government is inevitable at this point.

------
pavel_lishin
Why would you write this article, but not include the text of the posts?

~~~
andyking
Jordan Blackshaw's event was entitled "Smash Down in Northwich Town" and
included an invitation for something called the "Mob Hill Massive Northwich
Lootin'" to meet behind the McDonald's in the town centre at 1pm. It also
included the words "We'll need to get this kickin' off all over."

The Warrington posts by Perry Sutcliffe-Keenan were very similar, although he
did actually title his event "The Warrington Riots." It was a similar
invitation to meet at a location in the centre of the town at 7pm.

The rest of the information on the groups has not been released by police and
has been removed from Facebook. (Source: I work in the media in the area
concerned and have the police news release in front of me.)

------
alain
4 years... There are murderers who do less.

------
tlb
Surprisingly swift justice. The average wait time for the crown court is 13-15
weeks [<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crown_Court>].

~~~
mcantelon
The law is certainly agile when representing the interests of the state,
rather than citizens.

~~~
megablast
I think this is all about public perception, they are doing this to convince
the public they are now in control, despite the fact that most people involved
in the riots are free. I would not be surprised if this is appealed and
changed to a more reasonable sentence, in a few months, when people are more
calm.

------
nkh
Can someone from the UK comment on if 4-year sentences are typically served to
full term. I believe in America, you can be sentenced to 4 years and only end
up doing a few months of the actual sentence.

~~~
AndyJPartridge
You typically serve half of it over here, pending a hearing, "good behaviour"
and any extra conditions a judge added.

(Which for these sort of offences are very unlikely to be applied.)

------
VladRussian
speaking about value of anonymity on Facebook in particular and on the
Internet in general...

People pay dearly for the lack (or disregard?) of basic skills and practices
(anonymity, wireless, encryption, route through server in another country,
etc...) of how to exercise freedom of speech even in the countries where such
freedom is known to not even be guaranteed by law, like Britain or Libya.

------
AndyJPartridge
I'm a UK guy.

I won't argue that these sentences are disproportionate.

But is it what we need in response to this? I'd argue yes.

The spark for these "riots" was a gentleman who was killed during an arrest.
Bad times, of course. Very bad times.

But it's important to understand that the details of /exactly/ what happened
here are currently officially unknown. The official report has not been
released.

On the back of this, groups of people all over the UK decided to go on
organised shoplifting spree's. When asked by the media "Why" they said things
like "To get back our taxes, innit." [SIC]

Perhaps a few, who are at the very least comfortable with criminal behaviour,
need to be given these sorts of sentences - and then for the media to make it
well known it's happened.

A deterrent. Unfortunate for those singled out for it, but perhaps one needed
for the good of the whole society.

They looted charity shops for fucks sake. Parents supported the kids doing it.

Something had to be done. This was it.

~~~
dave1010uk
Prison sentences, fines, comunity service, etc are already a deterrent to
crime. These deterrents (and punishments) are considered proportionate to the
crime by the judge/jury. I see no reason to single out rioting to be
different, apart from emotional ones.

~~~
AndyJPartridge
But it hasn't acted as a deterrent, has it. The first tiny window of
opportunity these organised shoplifters had, they went for it.

It wasn't rioting or a protest.

~~~
megablast
You are getting over excited. There are many opportunities to riot, that are
not taken. This is no the "first tiny window of opportunity".

And once again, the police will cover up any wrong doing, close ranks, just as
they did with Jean Charles de Mendez. This is not OK. This is not acceptable,
for a police force to kill people, and hide. You can pretend that it has
nothing to do with this, but all you will be doing is pretending to yourself
to make yourself feel better.

~~~
AndyJPartridge
I don't feel I am getting over exited.

A protest about an unfortunate incident led to some people throwing stuff at
the Police. This escalated.

Others then saw this as an opportunity to go looting in other towns.

Bringing up Jean Charles de Mendez at this point in time makes no sense at
all. We have no idea what happened to Mark Duggan exactly yet.

------
Stevenup7002
What about the actual posts?

------
cellis
Make a post on Facebook, get sentenced to the Men of the Night's Watch. Steal
two scoops of ice cream, get your hand cut off!

~~~
shabble
ObRacistJoke:

 _Australian Immigration Officer_ : Do you have any prior criminal
convictions?

 _Tourist_ : I didn't realise that it was still a requirement.

------
Daniel_Newby
"Jordan Blackshaw, left, and Perry Sutcliffe-Keenan, both _pleaded guilty to
using Facebook in attempts to fuel riots in Cheshire_. They have been jailed
for four years"

One wonders what sort of lawyer they had that recommended a guilty plea, or in
the absence of a lawyer what was done to encourage that plea.

"Perry Sutcliffe-Keenan, 22, of Latchford, Warrington, used his Facebook
account in the early hours of _9 August_ ..."

Dateline of story: _Tuesday 16 August 2011_

One also wonders how their lawyer allowed the situation to progress from
alleged offense to media circus regarding four year sentence IN LESS THAN A
WEEK. I don't know how Britain usually does things, but in the U.S. a non-
violent victimless offender would generally spend most of the first week out
on bail awaiting the gathering of evidence for a proper arraignment. Methinks
someone has been railroaded.

~~~
tzs
Do courts in the UK have any flexibility in sentencing? Do defendants
generally know what evidence the prosecution has against them?

If so, then I'd expect guilty pleas to often be sensible. If you _know_ you
are guilty, and you know that the prosecution has sufficient evidence to make
it virtually certain you'll be convicted, why not plead guilty and hope that
sways the court to leniency?

I'd expect a court to be more lenient with a defendant who admits his guilt
and shows remorse for the crime than one who insists he is not guilty when he
clearly is and clearly knows that he's going to be found guilty.

~~~
estel
There's definitely leniency. Depending on the case, I believe the standard
tariff reduction for a sufficiently early Guilty plea is 1/3.

