
Co-living in London: Friendship, fines and frustration - Keres
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-43090849
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vrbelli
I lived at The Collective. Horrible, horrible place.

The price is ridiculous for a small cage in a crappy industrial area.
Facilities are so-so, everything is made to a very low standard. For the same
price you can get _so_ much better close to the city centre.

When I lived there the place was infested by young people doing tons of drugs
and partying in the common areas. It was well known that several dealers lived
in the building but as the staff were also massive cokeheads nothing ever
happened.

To fill up the building The Collective housed people on placement through the
government. That resulted in some interesting personalities. For example a guy
who beat his girlfriend to blood in front of their kid and dragged her out by
her hair through the reception.

The general manager was however fired when he, coked off his head, used his
masterkey to enter a girls room in the middle of the night to 'talk'.

UBER also had their driver HQ on the ground floor when I was there which
resulted in a lot of catcalling and weird behaviour from angry drivers in the
reception.

~~~
MistahKoala
> When I lived there the place was infested by young people doing tons of
> drugs and partying in the common areas

The impression I get is that these are living arrangements for people who
enjoyed shared accommodation at university and would quite like to continue
it. Not so much living without loneliness, but continuing and/or maximising
their youthful capacity to live as they'd like. I don't necessarily have a
problem with that if it doesn't impinge on others, although it feels a bit
like they're just paying to shortcut access to a hedonistic theme park rather
than making their own way. It might be a stretch to say this, but there's
something slightly _Westworld_ about it.

~~~
vrbelli
For sure. I was initially attracted by the idea of living with
creativea/entrepreneurs with a similar mindset.

What I found was mostly late twenties/early thirties "entrepreneurs" and
"consultants" that in reality had achieved very little. To make up for their
lack of achievement they adopt a holier-than-thou attitude and talk a lot
about how they have escaped hamster-wheel society and are now living as nomads
and free-spirits, most likely subsidised by mom and dad.

Amusing to observe but annoying to live with.

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krautsourced
My entire time in the UK I've lived in flatshares - out of sheer necessity due
to the ridiculous rent prices. This "co-living" space is no exception in that
respect. Only somehow they manage to spin it as "hip" to live in a shoebox for
1000£ a month. This is just making money off of the dire housing situation,
imho, by squeezing the maximum amount of people into a building.

It's probably fine for short term tennants who just need a place to sleep
after work ("bedsits" that are being offered in the city are at least as
expensive).

Now, mind you, having lived in flatshares for over 12 years, I've grown to
hate it with a passion, so maybe I'm totally wrong here (doubt it).

~~~
mcjiggerlog
Having to share a flat in London was a good 50% of the reason for me moving to
Madrid. Wanting to live in your own home is not so much to ask.

Sadly, this seems to be a trend in many other places too - even in Madrid
itself it's not that realistic to live alone if you are young and on a local
wage.

~~~
isostatic
Back in 2003 I managed to find a tiny bedsit, with a shower in one corner,
sink + countertop oven in another, and bed in the third. It was a shared
toilet, and cost half my take home wage.

I couldn't afford a proper 1 bed studio for £800 (with a separate bathroom),
nor could I afford to commute on tube (I found one 35 minute walk from work),
but it did the job.

I couldn't abide living in a house share, however somewhere that's effectively
a hall of residence, with a kettle and microwave in my room, would be far more
preferably than a house share.

18 months after my salary had increased enough that I could afford a 1 bed
flat in Twyford _and_ the commuting cost (cheap car, free parking due to shift
work, 7 days a fortnight), which was great

My mortgage in 2018 on a 4 bed house in Cheshire is less than I paid for the
rent on that flat in Twyford in 2004.

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misnome
> The only co-living options in the UK are currently in London

The only places branded with this buzzword, certainly. There are many, many
people sharing a house with other people they don't otherwise know. And, of
course, student accommodation. I wonder how much these rooms (which the
article says were built for students) were actually going to cost for the
students that would have lived there before it was bought and "rebranded".

The other place £2800 a month for a flat share is insane though - I live 20
minute on the train from Waterloo station, and that price will rent you a
1300sqft three-bedroom house. I guess it must be exponentially increasing as
you get closer in.

~~~
darrenf
For my entire career (I'm a lifelong Londoner) I've been bemused by newcomers
to the city who essentially refuse to even consider living beyond zone 2. I
grew up on the border of Z3/4 and now live in Z6, but have worked either in
zone 1 or beyond it (in travel terms) since late 1996. My gut feeling is that
the horrific prices in the centre are very much tied to what seems to be a
perception that the outskirts suck.

~~~
bitL
I knew a woman in her 50s in London that was commuting daily 6 hours from one
of the outskirts to another outskirt on the opposite side for a low-paying
SWEng job. Frankly, why do people even bother moving to London/UK? Unless you
are a finance person, a money-laudering crook from abroad or a top-school PhD
in a hot field, your prospects are slim.

~~~
csomar
> Unless you are a finance person, a money-laudering crook from abroad or a
> top-school PhD in a hot field

That's a very accurate description of London.

~~~
darrenf
There's almost 9 million people here, y'know.

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bitL
Alright, so Collective privatised what used to be a student dorm, decreasing
affordable housing to students, and now offers a bed in crammed rooms with
other people for at least 1000GBP/month. For some reason this is considered a
good deal (for Collective I guess?)... Is this the prosperous future?

~~~
dbbk
I've had a look round this place. It's definitely not a good deal. The core
concept is a good idea, but this particular building is just the worst
execution of it.

Also it never opened as a student dorm, I think that's what the architects had
in mind, but The Collective opened it as a co-living building from the start.

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mavdi
This is just depressing. A lot of the people here can get a remote job for
perhaps 10% less income, move to somewhere cheap but with great internet and
spend 50% less housing/food and leisure.

My internet connection in Brazil is 10x better than what I had in London. My
apartment is at least 3x bigger and 100x nicer. Food is awesome, people are
nice, weather is lovely and if you're not acting like a dumb gringo, it's
pretty safe too if London's latest murder spree hasn't convinced you yet.

~~~
isostatic
> it's pretty safe too if London's latest murder spree hasn't convinced you
> yet

The London murder rate is projected to be 180 this year, about 2 per 100k

Rio's murder rate is 18 per 100k - about 10 times worse than London.

~~~
mavdi
That statistic in skewed because most of the murders happen in the favelas
within drug gangs. City areas are ripe with petty crime but murder is perhaps
as widely seen as London.

Plus... it's not infested with security cameras.

~~~
dragonwriter
> That statistic in skewed because most of the murders happen in the favelas
> within drug gangs

But that (with “favela” replaced with he appropriate local term for underclass
neighborhoods) is true pretty much every city everywhere.

> City areas are ripe with petty crime but murder is perhaps as widely seen as
> London.

Yes, but “if you exclude our underclass neighborhoods, our murder rate is the
same as City X including it's underclass neighborhoods” is not making the
argument you seem to think it is.

~~~
isostatic
Some cities are dangerous in the posh neighbourhoods -- I wouldn't want to
live in Johannesburg, where things like this [1] happen

Not something that happens in London, or New York, or St Louis or even Rio and
Sao Paulo.

[1] [http://www.eutimes.net/2012/07/south-african-family-dies-
in-...](http://www.eutimes.net/2012/07/south-african-family-dies-in-horrible-
massacre-and-torture-home-invasion/)

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corobo
Three grand a month for a cage! You can almost rent six 3 bedroom semi-
detached houses for that where I am! (~150 miles north of London). Sublet or
rent with others if you need the company

Don't embrace the cage, embrace remote working

~~~
Peroni
I live just outside of London. A 30min direct train to most of the major
London stations. I have a three bed detached house with a few acres of land
and I'm paying a fraction of what they are charging for a glorified bedsit.

~~~
corobo
Yeah I'd imagine it's similar in many places outside of London really, I just
gave the 150 miles north for context

Crazy the amount people are paying.. earning too. I think the earning shock
for me is having it in my head small housing is for students and entry level
jobs though

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dpifke
I've stayed at Roam in Miami, London, and Bali. I was at the London location
as the same time as the author of the linked article, and am currently at the
tail-end of a three week stay in their Miami property.

I think to compare the pricing to a long-term lease, or the facilities to a
luxury hotel, is to miss the point. The biggest value proposition is in having
a community of like-minded people from the moment you walk through the door.
I've never met so many friendly, diverse, interesting people as I have each
time I've stayed with them.

I sold my home in San Francisco at the beginning of 2015 and have been a full-
time nomad since then, staying mostly in hotels. I am 10X more social and more
productive when I stay at Roam. Being in a city where you don't know anyone,
and aren't a native-speaker of the language, can be very lonely. Having to
track down laptop-friendly coffee shops, or commute to co-working spaces, or
hunt restaurants for lunch and dinner, can consume a ridiculous percentage of
your day. Roam completely solves these issues by facilitating a community,
providing great co-working spaces, and having a well-stocked commercial
kitchen.

Is it more expensive than living on your own? Not compared to SF or NY (or
zone 1 in London, where the old London property was). And not compared to a
hotel.

Is it as nice as a 5-star hotel? Nope (at least none of the rooms in which I
stayed). But I'd rather walk out the door of my room and be invited to drinks
with friends, than waved at by a bellhop.

------
everyone
£1,000 to nearly £3,000 a month

fuuuuuuuuuuuuckin ell

~~~
whywhywhywhy
Even by London prices that's utterly absurd, you can get an entire one bed
flat for yourself for £1000 and I don't even mean having to move far out I'm
talking walking distance of shoreditch.

Wouldn't wish flatsharing """co-living""" on anyone, what a nightmare.

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jmacd
Flatshares are completely normal in many UK cities and they are marketed
directly as Student Houses in places like Cambridge. Rightmove even has a
special checkbox for them.

I've never heard it called "co-living" however.

~~~
dx034
Flatshares are completely normal for students but those co-living spaces aim
at people with several years of work experience who still can't afford their
own flat in a reasonable location.

~~~
DC-3
Strikes me that it's just a rebranding of flatshares for people who consider
themselves too old and too professional to be living out a Peep Show esque
post-university existence.

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laurieg
Japan shows an interesting contrast to the UK housing market. In Japan there
are many small single occupancy apartments. I rent one right in the middle of
a large city for around 300GBP per month. Sharing is almost non-existant
outside of families.

Recently however, so called "share houses" have started popping up. They are
usually centered around an idea: "English language immersion house", "pet
lovers house". You pay a small premium for extra services related to the
house.

It seems that most people choose to live alone, and London's house shares are
just caused by the economics of the situation.

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Nursie
I'm so glad I don't live in London any more.

When I did, last decade, I paid in the range of £300-700 a month for a flat or
a house I shared with friends. We always had decent sized rooms, a good
kitchen etc

A grand a month to live in a room smaller than the Travelodge is just awful.

Now I live on the South coast, I work in London sometimes when the money is
right, I work in Dorset, Hampshire, West Sussex and Surrey otherwise.

In the city I live in (Southampton) you can rent a 3 bedroom house for £850
pcm. You might even be able to buy a place to live eventually.

Life is so much better.

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Sholmesy
This is absurd.

I live in Soho (Zone 1, as central/touristy as it gets), with my partner + 1
housemate.

We pay £2400, split £1400/£1000. The flat is nice too (fresh renovation, not
an ex-council flat).

This is a dystopia to me.

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paulbjensen
£1000pm for that is crazy. I did flat shares ranging from £440pm in Stoke
Newington. I imagine the going rate might have climbed to £650pm, but this is
just bonkers.

~~~
clearly
Indeed, this should not be portrayed as a competitive rate really, it's just
the price of super convenience.

~~~
dbbk
It's not even priced for convenience. It's not in a well-connected area, and
you can get basically any other flatshare with all bills included for equal or
less price.

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antihero
These sound utterly bleak and awful. If you want to live in a collective
space, just go into a house-share, you can find a nice enough room for
£600-800/month. Or if you go further from the centre, you can rent flats etc.
I pay £1,000/mo for a single bed with small garden 3 mins walk from Crystal
Palace station (though I did get very lucky). My commute is a perfectly
pleasant 40 mins to Shoreditch.

The problem is that people seem to want to live right in the centre, whereas
if you're on a reliable public transport route (and TfL is fairly reliable).
Knowing what areas are awful and which ones are lovely is nice, too.

If you move down towards Greenwich, Sydenham, Peckham, Deptford, New Cross etc
there's much better options in much nicer areas, and if you're happy living
places with good transport links that are shittier in general you could hit up
Stratford, Mile End etc.

Zone 3 seems to be a sweet spot. Then it's £160(ish)/month to get pretty much
anywhere by transport.

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nelsonic
Having lived in London for 10 years and shared most of that time I can see the
appeal of Co-living for the _community_ aspect. The reason _many_ people (but
clearly not all, judging from the comments in this thread!) find "The
Collective" to be "value for money" is because it "includes" so many amenities
such as "Cinema", Gym & Co-working space. When these are factored in,
£1000/month is "not bad" for London. It's _obviously_ a grossly over-priced
_outside_ of London in the same way that £7 for "Avocado & Eggs on Toast"
seems "reasonable" in Shoreditch (London) but "absurd" anywhere outside of the
Capital!

Having (personally) visited "The Collective" recently I felt they were trying
to "force" the community aspect and were more interested in "ticking boxes"
with their facilities than actually making them _great_. For example the
"Library" had very few _decent_ books (lost of empty shelves) and was more of
an "interior design" magazine picture than an actual _useable_ space.

The author of the (BBC) Article (Winnie Agbonlahor) is _clearly_ not the
"target market" for the co-living value proposition, however she finishes her
article noting that: "In a different phase of my life - definitely."

And I have to __agree 100% __; if I were "young and single" it would be a
_great_ way to meet and socialise with like-minded people.

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clearly
It's good there are different options, but this would be very unpalatable for
me. The "anonymity" of these big spaces leads to very anti social behaviour in
my experience. Luckily in 10 years in London I never shared with more than 1
other person and now own my flat.

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toomanybeersies
I absolutely adore the concept of co-living, it's especially great for people
who have moved cities or countries and don't have an established group of
friends.

When I moved cities for work after university, I moved into a long term
backpackers hostel. I ended up living there for a year, until I actually moved
again and moved overseas. Sure, sharing a room with 3 other people wan't
great, but it was amazing to live in this building with all these other
(mostly) awesome people. It was a long term hostel, so most people were there
for 3-6 months, so there was a lot of churn, but it wasn't like I had to make
a new group of friends every day. There was no financial necessity for me to
live in a hostel, I could more than afford to move into an apartment, but I
just didn't want to.

Because of living there for so long, I now have friends all over the globe.

I now live in an sharehouse with 3 other people, and I really miss living in a
hostel. I miss the dumb shit we'd get up to. I miss the massive shared dinners
with 15 people. The thing that I miss the most though is that there was always
something to do and someone to do it with. Even at 3 in the morning, there
would be someone in the lounge to hang out with. Living in a shared house
(where my housemates are very quiet), I feel massively understimulated.

Obviously co-living isn't for everyone, but I think that there are a lot of
people who would really benefit from it. I find it hard enough living with
only a couple of people, I couldn't possibly imagine living on my own. I guess
I like coworking spaces for the same reason, as bad as they are for
productivity, I really miss working in a coworking space now that I work in a
small office with ~10 other people. In a coworking space of 200 people there's
always someone that shares your interests and there's a different relationship
between co-workingspacers and colleagues. We used to have a daily quiz at the
coworking space, and a group of us would do the crossword, there was also a
group who'd go to the gym together, and even a motorbike riding group.

There's a great TED talk on cohousing [1], which is a similar concept, but
based more around having several families living in self contained apartments,
but with a lot of shared space and activities. To me, that is the ideal kind
of living situation, everyone has their personal space, as well as having
communal space and activities. I've been living in my current house for 6
months, and the only reason I've even met one of my neighbours is that I
accidentally stole their fridge.

I think that as people become more and more mobile, moving cities and even
countries more often, it's important that we have these opportunities for
socializing and meeting other people. It's seriously hard to meet people in a
new city or country. With more people working remotely as well, loneliness is
a growing issue.

[1]
[https://www.ted.com/talks/grace_kim_how_cohousing_can_make_u...](https://www.ted.com/talks/grace_kim_how_cohousing_can_make_us_happier_and_live_longer)

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ehmuidifici
IMHO this co-living model is the same as squatting, of course excluding the
legal issues.

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denimnerd
really glad I live in the suburbs in Texas.. mortgage on new construction
300m^2 is $2000/mo, my commute is 25 minutes and my salary higher than
Londoners..

