
New York’s Rockland County declares measles outbreak emergency - dustinmoris
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-47715169
======
nerdponx
I know it's against the rules here to insinuate that people haven't read the
article, but I don't think anyone commenting has read the article.

This isn't about the anti-vax movement as it is about the toxic relationship
that the ultra-Orthodox Jewish enclaves in New York have with their
surrounding communities. They are used to abusing religious exemptions in
order to have everything "their way". Hopefully this is the beginning of the
end of their ability to operate like this.

 _The outbreak in Rockland County is largely concentrated in the ultra-
Orthodox Jewish community, the New York Times reported. It is believed it
could have spread from other predominantly ultra-Orthodox areas around New
York which have already seen outbreaks of measles._

 _Mr Day said health inspectors had encountered "resistance" from some local
residents, which he branded "unacceptable and irresponsible"._

 _" They've been told 'We're not discussing this, do not come back' when
visiting the homes of infected individuals as part of their investigations,"
he said._

~~~
js2
I was curious what’s going on here as there’s nothing in Jewish teachings[0]
that would justify an anti-vaccination stance. It’s apparently more that as an
insular community it is particularly susceptible to anti-vaccine
misinformation[1].

0\. _In numerous states parents wishing not to vaccinate their children are
permitted to sign a document stating that their religious convictions do not
allow them to; based on this signature the child will then be permitted to
attend school under the law. It is reported that small numbers of parents in
Jewish schools have signed such documents. For a parent of a yeshiva student
to sign such a statement in the name of Judaism is not just inappropriate, it
is false. Whether a posek will rule that childhood immunizations are
obligatory in halakhah or are discretionary (but highly advisable), there is
no position in halakhah that says there is any prohibition or compelling
reason to refrain from such vaccinations._

[http://www.hakirah.org/Vol13Bush.pdf](http://www.hakirah.org/Vol13Bush.pdf)

1\. “How Orthodox Jewish Nurses Are Fighting 'Anti-Vaccination Propaganda'
Targeting Their Community”

[http://gothamist.com/2019/03/26/orthodox_jewish_nurses_vacci...](http://gothamist.com/2019/03/26/orthodox_jewish_nurses_vaccines.php)

~~~
Balgair
_This American Life_ has a very in-depth broadcast from 2014 about the many,
many, issues involved. Well worth a listen:

"A Not-So-Simple Majority:

Before the war in the East Ramapo, New York school district, there was a
truce. Local school officials made a deal with their Hasidic and ultra-
Orthodox Jewish neighbors: we'll leave you alone to teach your children in
private yeshivas as you see fit as long as you allow our public school budget
to pass. But the budget is funded by local property taxes, which everyone,
including the local Hasidim, have to pay — even though their kids don't attend
the schools that their money is paying for. What followed was one of the most
volatile local political battles we've ever encountered."

[https://www.thisamericanlife.org/534/a-not-so-simple-
majorit...](https://www.thisamericanlife.org/534/a-not-so-simple-majority)

~~~
js2
I’ve listened to that episode but I don’t recall vaccinations being part of
it, and I don’t see anything in the transcript re:vaccinations, so I’m not
sure how it’s directly relevant.

The point of my comment is that Judaism itself is not the reason these
orthodox communities are rejecting vaccines, unlike some other
communities/religions that have specific cultural or religious objections to
medical care.

~~~
nerdponx
I didn't mean to imply that it was, but that's a good point.

I was meaning to highlight their resistance to intervention by the local
governments whose jurisdiction they do their best to ignore.

~~~
js2
Fair enough. I’m Jewish and part of my extended family is Orthodox (though my
direct family is not), so I’ probably being overly sensitive.

BTW, you should look at this horrible anti-vax booklet (linked to from the
Gothamist piece) that’s been circulated among these communities:

[https://issuu.com/peachmoms/docs/the_vaccine_safety_handbook...](https://issuu.com/peachmoms/docs/the_vaccine_safety_handbook_a4)

Ugh.

------
LandR
How are we still getting measles outbreak in a developed country in current
year.

This is a solved problem.

FFS.

~~~
dsfyu404ed
Because a "large enough to cause problems" minority of people think they know
what's best, science and statistics be damned.

It's the same reason people are still clinging to the war on drugs, pushing
gun control, fighting densification (yes I know that's not a word) of cities
and denying climate change.

~~~
threatofrain
I feel that scientists have also long played around with an ethic of anti-
journalism or anti-marketing as a pride, like it shows you're a true person of
science. There aren't enough Richard Feynman's in the modern age.

------
tanilama
Measles even for normal adults can leave ugly scars afterwards. It is
definitely not harmless.

~~~
C1sc0cat
And for guys can make you infertile and have horrific consequences if your a
Woman and are pregnant when you get it.

------
matthewfelgate
Facebook has a lot to answer for. The internet was supposed to be a new human
enlightenment by enabling professionals to remotely connect. We didn't bank on
the ability of idiots to connect too...

~~~
maze-le
Its a structural problem, not necessary facebooks -- if it werent for
facebook, the idiots would congregate somewhere else to spread their lies.
What is missing is an education in epistemology for a broad audience
regardless of education level -- the ability to categorize and weight the
value of knowledge and sources.

~~~
unionpivo
More/better education is always good. But there will always be _idiots_. Look
at flat earth believers (although i have hard time believing they are not just
trolls).

They used to be small groups of them all over the world, and they didn't do
too much damage. What social media has done is amplified their voice, giving
them look of legitimacy.

~~~
AlexTWithBeard
Flat earthers are trolls, but they are very useful trolls.

They give kids great examples of things like falsifiability and scientific
method.

~~~
simonh
It may be difficult to believe but while there may be a lot of FE trolls,
there are also a significant number of true believers.

~~~
Freak_NL
It's trolling taken to its logical extreme: you literally cannot tell whether
someone posting flat-earth 'facts' is a troll or not online. The behaviour of
the acolyte and the troll is identical.

Only when you meet these people in real life is there a fair chance of
sounding them out to discover if they are just playing along or are actually
convinced of whatever conspiracy is being peddled. I would expect most trolls
keep their flat-earth proselytizing strictly as an online activity.

But they do seem to exist (the true believers that is).

~~~
AlexTWithBeard
Ah, ye goode olde Poe's law:

 _without a clear indicator of the author 's intent, it is impossible to
create a parody of extreme views... that cannot be mistaken by some readers
for a sincere expression of the parodied views._

------
dvdkhlng
Same problem in germany, recently. Parents think they know better and refuse
to have their kids vaccinated. Now the vaccination rate is low enough for
measles to start spreading in schools etc.

Currently there is a discussion about making vaccination mandatory:

[https://www.dw.com/en/germany-measles-vaccine-could-be-
compu...](https://www.dw.com/en/germany-measles-vaccine-could-be-compulsory-
for-kids/a-48050623)

~~~
cbg0
While I'm not sure on the legal side of things if this is enforceable, I think
not allowing them to participate in school as a matter of public health would
be easier to put into law than forcing them to get vaccinated. Obviously,
state and private companies could require vaccinations for employment as well,
so unless you have a medical reason to not be vaccinated you won't be able to
be part of civilized society.

~~~
dvdkhlng
Yes, for kindergarden I would imagine such kind of approach to be very
effective. However, school is obligatory (at least where I come from) and
people even get into trouble for taking kinds on vacation outside of school
holidays, so denying kids to participate in school may not be an option (and
would also not be in the kids' interest).

~~~
askmike
In my country too, I think cbg0 is referring to homeschooling these kids
instead.

~~~
JanSt
Homeschooling is not allowed in Germany

~~~
askmike
Not at all? It is in my country (the Netherlands) in some circumstances, for
example if you are of a certain religion and there is no school within x
kilometers that satisfies your religious requirements.

------
csomar
How come such vaccines are not mandatory? Shouldn't the parents be held
responsible for endangering their children and potentially killing them?

~~~
kypro
I dislike the antivax movement but mandatory state injections would be a huge
violation of liberties in my opinion. Just because most vaccines are safe and
worth while getting don't mean they all are, or always will be.

~~~
krapp
>I dislike the antivax movement but mandatory state injections would be a huge
violation of liberties in my opinion.

That's true, but if we consider any violation of personal liberty to be
harmful, then we're left with primitivist anarchy.

We've decided, collectively (albeit not individually and not always
voluntarily) that it is beneficial in some cases to abridge the rights of the
individual for the sake of society. We invented systems of laws and courts
because we consider a fixed set of common laws and a controlled system to
adjudicate them to be more just and fair on average than retributory violence
and clan based tribalism, despite the existence of the state and its monopoly
on violence being an abridgement of personal liberty.

We've also decided that, while scientific inquiry has its faults, it is
preferable to assume that the premises of science (specifically, epidemiology
and the utility of vaccines) hold sound, given the evidence, despite this
amounting to an appeal to authority for most people, who aren't likely to be
willing or able to do the work of personally validating all of the claims ever
made by a particular scientific field.

In the case of vaccines, we have ample historical evidence of the effect of
epidemics and a lack of preventative measures on human populations, and of the
improvements made to society as a result of vaccination and preventative
measures. The choice here is not between potentially harmful vaccines versus a
healthy life in their absence, rather, between between an abstract threat
(vaccines) and a concrete threat (disease.)

So, yes. Mandatory vaccines are a violation of liberty. We didn't spend the
last several millennia laying a foundation of civilization and scientific
progress just to subject ourselves to the blind malice of nature for the sake
of a few people who don't like the government telling them they're not allowed
to catch polio if they want to.

~~~
raxxorrax
But we reached vaccination quotas above 95% without being mandatory, so that
argument evidently does not apply.

~~~
notacoward
It totally applies because (a) the threshold needs to be 98% according to the
math that governs such things, (b) we're not _sure_ to stay at 98% (or even
95%) in the face of disinformation campaigns such as the one you're a part of,
and (c) it really is important to be sure because the consequences of allowing
outbreaks to continue are actually severe. Making other people suffer the
burdens of illness could be seen as a violation of _their_ rights, and is
impossible to address via litigation after the fact, so prevention is
necessary.

You've already claimed that measles doesn't cause serious harm, and been
proven wrong. Multiple times. You've claimed that this outbreak isn't serious,
despite the facts that are known about how disease spreads and how infectious
measles in particular is. Why do you persist in pushing this anti-vax
narrative?

------
Leace
And on the other side of the globe, "Australian Teens Ignore Anti-Vaxxer
Parents by Getting Secret Vaccinations":

[https://www.thedailybeast.com/australian-teens-ignore-
anti-v...](https://www.thedailybeast.com/australian-teens-ignore-anti-vaxxer-
parents-by-getting-secret-vaccinations)

~~~
Broken_Hippo
Unfortunately, minors in the US have few actual rights. I don't think they
have the right to get vaccines without their parent's permission and it isn't
considered medical abuse.

~~~
wavefunction
It depends on the state and age of the minor:

[https://vaxopedia.org/2018/09/25/how-can-i-get-vaccinated-
if...](https://vaxopedia.org/2018/09/25/how-can-i-get-vaccinated-if-my-
parents-are-anti-vaccine/)

------
JumpCrisscross
Rockland County, a county in New York State, not New York County, which is
congruent with the borough of Manhattan [1].

[1]
[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_counties_in_New_York](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_counties_in_New_York)

~~~
de_Selby
I parsed it as "(a) New York County ..."

Not "The county named 'New York County' ..."

~~~
cimmanom
If you’re not super familiar with the existence of New York County, that
definitely makes sense as a default reading. For those of us who are, the
headline was double-take worthy. And yes, I skimmed the comments for the
answer instead of opening the article.

That said, New York County as an entity rarely if ever does anything. It’s the
borough of Manhattan that actually has a governmental structure. I’m not aware
of any belonging to the county except maybe a court. And an emergency like
this would always be declared on a city-wide basis (and has been in the past),
just based on the amount of travel within and between the boroughs.

