
Providence Lost: The Rise and Fall of Cromwell’s Protectorate - flannery
https://thecritic.co.uk/issues/april-2020/a-puritan-but-not-a-fanatic/
======
pjc50
Cromwell really does have a lingering propaganda support, doesn't he?

The UK is one of a very small number of countries to have deliberately
restored its monarchy after a revolution and period of parliamentary
government, and the reason for that is that Cromwellian government was _even
worse_ for a lot of people. A modern analogue might be the Iranian Revolution;
congratulations on getting rid of the puppet monarch controlled by overseas
interests, now dancing is banned. Or in the case of Cromwell, Christmas.
[https://historicengland.org.uk/listing/what-is-
designation/h...](https://historicengland.org.uk/listing/what-is-
designation/heritage-highlights/did-oliver-cromwell-really-ban-christmas/)

The UK does an extremely bad job of teaching its historial "religious"
conflict, which was rarely about doctrine so much as temporal power-politics.

~~~
dcolkitt
> The UK does an extremely bad job of teaching its historial "religious"
> conflict, which was rarely about doctrine so much as temporal power-
> politics.

I disagree. There really is no way to understand the English Civil War without
understanding the religious disputes at its cores. Yes, it was a power
struggle. But for the most part, many if not most of its major players were
fighting out of deep-seated religious convictions. This most certainly
includes Cromwell.

The reverberations of this conflict still color our modern-day ideological
conflicts. The Royalist strongholds during the conflict are _still_ the areas
of England with the highest Anglican identification. Anglican identification
is still the strongest predictor of Tory support. The Red/Blue-state divide in
America is largely the same map of what areas were settled by Cavaliers and
what areas were settled by dissenters.

~~~
rjsw
The map of Royalist areas also matches that of support for Brexit.

~~~
notahacker
An interesting idea but tenuous. The Parliamentary homeland in the
southeastern counties mostly voted for Brexit outside London, Cambridge and
Oxford [Oxford being a royalist redoubt surrounded by Parliamentarians on the
Civil War map rather than the reverse]. The Remain voting areas of England
were mostly conurbations which didn't exist during the Civil War, some of them
like Liverpool being in predominantly Royalist areas. Overall, the local
population didn't get much say in which areas were occupied by which troops
back then either.

------
dev_north_east
> albeit well over 300 years later, and as further proof that the Irish have
> perhaps the longest memories in the world.

Oh right. At what point do historical figures get a free pass on bringing up
their bad doings?

And by bad doings, we're talking deaths in the hundreds of thousands, enforced
slavery etc.

~~~
ZanyProgrammer
“Irish slavery” is usually a sign someone is a racist asshole who has no idea
what they’re talking about.

~~~
dev_north_east
I'm not American and have no interest in that side of stuff. Keep your
partisan political terms and debates to yourselves.

Call them forced to migrate, indented servants or whatever makes yourself feel
good. I'll stick with the accurate term for such.

Edit: Sorry for being a dick, I made assumptions there.

------
watersb
I am just now re-reading Neal Stephenson's "System of the World" or "Baroque
Cycle"[0], the first book of which is set in Restoration-Era London.

A fictionalized account, the flavor of which serves to resonate with the feel
of dot-Com startup disruption. Which as I write this, my own words sound trite
and trivial. Stephenson's work is anything but: Civil War in England, Queen
Anne's War in the American Colonies, interminable war in continental Europe...
So far, it gives short shrift to England's treatment of Ireland.

[0]:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Baroque_Cycle](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Baroque_Cycle)

------
tenant
The article,though not the book, is by Simon Heffer who's always a bit
controversial on matters Irish. In my view he'd be one of those British who
still feel that, on maps the British Isles should in their entirety be
coloured pink just as many Irish feel that the whole island of Ireland should
be coloured green.

------
viburnum
“the sins of Cromwell and his army in rooting out the supporters (both
Catholic and Protestant) of the Stuarts in Ireland were used regularly as a
stick with which to beat the English, albeit well over 300 years later, and as
further proof that the Irish have perhaps the longest memories in the world”

People tend to remember when you kill a third of their population.

------
alphadevx
Wow, what a truly offensive article. Firstly speaking as an Irish person, the
dismissive tone here is outrageous:

"And later in the century, as one phase of the conflict between England and
Ireland followed another, the sins of Cromwell and his army in rooting out the
supporters (both Catholic and Protestant) of the Stuarts in Ireland were used
regularly as a stick with which to beat the English, albeit well over 300
years later, and as further proof that the Irish have perhaps the longest
memories in the world."

For some historical context, start here:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Drogheda](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Drogheda)

And as for the conclusion:

"The growth of British power and prosperity in the eighteenth and nineteenth
centuries was in great measure built on those secure foundations. Cromwell’s
part in leading the great change of culture was absolutely fundamental to
that."

So Cromwell helped build the foundations of the British Empire, and that's a
"good thing"? I don't know where to start, consider me triggered ;-)

~~~
dev_north_east
> I don't know where to start, consider me triggered ;-)

Ha! You and me both. As an Irish lad in the UK, one of the funniest things I
still encounter is republicans (British ones!) who hold him up as a hero. You
really have to wonder at times.

~~~
alphadevx
I would love to see Britain become a republic some day for their benefit (up
to them of course to vote on that), but agree they need a better hero.

~~~
dev_north_east
I used to be of that mindset (re: become a republic) but tbh I'm more of the
line of thinking, if it ain't broke... With the parliamentary style of
government, you need a figurehead. So you'd have to tear up a whole host of UK
conventions going back centuries and re-jig everything, just so someone else
gets the ceremonial role?

Much as some might like a complete re-write, I say expand the unit tests
around it if minor bugs arise ( e.g.
[https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-15492607](https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-15492607)
) and let the system run unless a major blocker comes up ;)

~~~
unmole
I don't think replacing the Monarch with a ceremonial president requires a
complete rewrite. It's more of a cosmetic refactoring, if you will.

------
DubiousPusher
For a primer on this period take a listen to the now defunct Bing Thinking
History Podcast

[http://bingethinkinghistory.blogspot.com/?m=1](http://bingethinkinghistory.blogspot.com/?m=1)

And the early episodes of Mike Duncan's Revolutions podcast.

[https://www.revolutionspodcast.com/](https://www.revolutionspodcast.com/)

Together these really disabused of the propaganda taught in American schools
like that the entire world was under tyranny before the American Republic,
that the founders were geniuses that came up with religious toleration,
consent of governed and seperation of powers all on their own, etc.

------
Quarrel
This is a recounting the story in the book, and the threads the author of the
book draws out.

This is not a review. It is terrible. I want to know is the book interesting,
is it well written, engaging, well-paced? Critique it!

~~~
jhbadger
That isn't what magazines like "The Critic", "London Review of Books", and the
like publish. They aren't like movie reviews ("two thumbs up!"). Instead, the
articles are by other people who know the respective subjects and while
sometimes the reviews criticize the theses of the books, they aren't
interested in whether it is an exciting page-turner.

------
kaycebasques
If there's any one here that's well-versed in USA history and this episode of
Cromwell history, can you give me an example of an event in American history
that's similarly controversial along the lines of what I'm seeing in this HN
discussion? I know that there will be no perfect comparison but I sense that
there is some historical event with a similar sort of political charge and
ambiguity.

~~~
pjc50
Bit of an odd place to ask .. surely _most_ of American history has
politically charged ambiguity to it? The least controversial bits are the two
world wars and the War of Independence itself. Everything beyond that is up
for grabs, in the colonialism vs. post-colonialism struggle.

The civil war is the main contended issue, right up to the present day. To a
much greater extent than it is in the UK outside of the few areas of sectarian
Catholic/Protestant fighting (mostly Northern Ireland, Glasgow). Even there
the central figure is more likely to be William of Orange (a few decades
later) than Cromwell.

~~~
joveian
I agree most of American history is charged and comparing civil wars makes
sense, but I would add that much of the US government interaction with the
first nations seems generally comparable as well. The history of Oklahoma,
boarding schools, allotment, and the recent pipeline protests are four
particular areas (there are many others) that are very charged today.

Looking at it a bit differently, Texas history, where a bunch of ranchers
decided on their own to expand the US, could be comparable as well and is
still charged today.

