

Female Engineers: Too Fit For The Role - maxjaderberg
http://vagendamag.blogspot.co.uk/2013/05/female-engineers-too-fit-for-role.html

======
walshemj
For non UK readers Fit = "hot"

It might not be immediately clear but the article is talking about Civil
Engineering which is a little unreconstructed when compared to IT.

And to progress to Chartered status for civil engineers you must have
experience working on site bossing the navvies around.

When I worked for Dar Al Hadnasha (one of the big civil consultacies) we had
to send out female engineers to Italy on an exchange as in the middle east it
woudl have been impossible for a woman to go on site.

------
JamisonM
Misogyny is, in my experience, a function of the power dynamic in a situation.
As an engineer working on site the author is placed in a position of
authority, but one with no direct power over the workers that she is
encountering on site. She is at the same time both threatening, due to her
high status, and powerless, because her influence over the work is indirect.

I find this behavior disgusting but it is, I feel, the answer to the question
posed by the author: "But they must leave at some point and see
wives/daughters/sisters/mothers/random women in the street.. Is the point less
about novelty or even sex, and much more about straightforward intimidation?"

It is pretty much about intimidation and resentment by some and a group
dynamic that forces others to play along or ignore the situation. I can't
speak to the situation in Britain but in my part of the world I can say that
things have improved substantially in the last 15 or so years but there is
still a long way to go. Contrary to what anyone might tell you though, it is
not a case of "boys will be boys" - the fact of the matter is that the
management and foremen can change the culture if they want to, I have seen it
happen, someone in charge just needs to have the resolve to say it won't be
tolerated and actually act on it.

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swombat
Kind of puts the "sexism in tech" discussion in perspective. These guys make
the Mad Men lot sound respectful.

Here's a simple way they could deal with that - create a new company (or even
just a new department within the company), hire only civilised people, fire
anyone who proves to be an uncivilised jerk, and slowly grow that
department/company to take over the company/industry because it's not full of
retards...

~~~
mattdeboard
> _hire only civilised people, fire anyone who proves to be an uncivilised
> jerk ... because it's not full of retards..._

Complaining about sexism then using "retards" as a pejorative is just too
ironic.

~~~
UnoriginalGuy
That caught me off guard too. I didn't realise anyone used the term anymore.

Maybe the OP used it to make a point?

~~~
swombat
I don't call mentally handicapped people retards, I call them mentally
handicapped people.

Retards, in my vocabulary, means someone who is not mentally handicapped but
is a cretin. I could have used the word "cretin", in fact.

~~~
UnoriginalGuy
So you'd happily use the N' word, "fag," "gay," and similar since you can re-
define them in your head to be just general insults, rather than associating
negativity with the groups for which these words were originally used?

Sorry but we both know the reason you're using that word is because you want
to paint them as being mentally handicapped which you perceive as "bad." You
can pretend that isn't what you're doing but even if that is true that is how
others perceive it, because when they hear the word "retard" they think
mentally handicapped and you're using it as a derogative.

~~~
swombat
Retard does not have the same "inappropriate" connotations in the UK as in the
US (certainly it's nothing like using nigger or fag(got) in conversation as a
pejorative).

But yes, I do think being mentally handicapped is "bad". Are you arguing that
it's "good"?

~~~
UnoriginalGuy
I live here. Yes it does.

~~~
swombat
Well, I live here too. Maybe you live in an alternate reality.

You didn't answer my question. Do you think being mentally handicapped is
good?

~~~
UnoriginalGuy
It is neither good nor bad. Neutral.

But regardless of your opinion, using it as an insult is uncalled for. Since
essentially you're lumping people who already have problems in with whatever
it is you're trying to insult.

~~~
swombat
I think by now we're really arguing semantics, but I would argue that I do not
lump anyone in with the people I call retards.

I would never call a mentally handicapped person a "retard". To me, that would
be an incredibly insulting and inappropriate thing to do. The only people I'd
call retards are people who are not mentally handicapped.

Similarly, if I call someone a dick head, I do not consider that to be
insulting, or even related, to physical dick heads... it's just an insulting
term. If I call someone (a guy, usually) a bitch (e.g "Yo, bitch, pass me the
beer"), that does not imply any connection with female dogs.

Btw, I don't see how you can argue that being mentally handicapped (which by
definition means having mental issues) can be neutral. It's clearly a net
negative. It doesn't mean the person is more or less good, much like missing a
leg or an arm (aka physically handicapped) doesn't make the person more or
less good, but it's definitely a "bad" thing.

------
Swizec
I will probably get shunned to death for asking this, but I must ask.

The described behaviour of men in the article is pretty damn sexist, true. But
how is it any different from how men in groups behave towards one another?
Just replace all the sexist jokes with gay jokes or sissy jokes or just about
any other type of jokes men direct at one another to establish pecking orders
within groups.

Reading this, it doesn't feel so much like the terrible sexism it's portrayed
as, but more like reading about a clash of cultures. This is how groups of men
organise themselves. I understand it's jarring for women and that women do it
differently, but still, all I see here are men treating a woman _exactly_ like
they treat other men.

By the sound of it, she's actually being accepted into the group. Hazing is
always the first step.

~~~
onemorepassword
> Just replace all the sexist jokes with gay jokes or sissy jokes or just
> about any other type of jokes men direct at one another to establish pecking
> orders within groups.

You may want to consider hanging out with a different crowd...

Also, this is not "hanging out", this is the workplace. Different standards
should apply. Bullying and intimidation in the workplace is unacceptable for
any reason, and in this case it's _both_ bullying and sexism.

Yes, I know this is how certain groups of men behave. It also happens to be
the same men who's jobs are in danger of permanently disappearing, and this is
exactly one of the main reasons nobody gives a shit.

~~~
jiggy2011
By the sounds of the article this is British construction workers we are
talking about. They have their own culture which is equally as strange as
ours, they literally rip on each other _all_ of the time.

They _must_ find something to tease you about, whether it's being "gay" , your
nationality or just the football team you follow.

Unfortunately in this case in the absence of anything else they chose to pick
up on her being a woman.

~~~
gertertsgsdfa
That's not really much of a defence though, is it? British construction
workers have decided for themselves which jokes are normal, which are funny,
which jokes cross the line. Their tastes are biased in a very sexist way
(probably more to do with subjective bias than actual misogyny, but still
sexist in content).

Think about your list of things to joke about. If you're not a straight,
masculine, white, English man then they joke about whatever makes you
different. Which means sexist, homophobic or racist jokes. If you are a
straight, masculine, white, English man, then, ha, ha, you like Manchester
United. It's not ha, ha, your mum's got cancer, or ha, ha, you lost your wife
in a car accident. No, hurtful jokes only get made to people who are
different. People who are like the majority get made fun off for having
different taste with regards being a sports fan.

Just because it's a tradition, and they don't mean it, doesn't mean it's okay.

~~~
jiggy2011
They'd probably call you gay even if you weren't, whether or not you actually
are is probably not that important to them.

You'd also probably get made fun of more for being say Irish or Scottish than
for being black.

Whether or not it's "okay" it is not something you could reasonably expect to
be changed for one person.

I would think that really her employer should have managed her expectations
better.

~~~
arrrg
Using "gay" as an insult is very problematic and homophobic.

Calling someone who is gay "gay" is generally not a problem. (Depending on
context it obviously can be, but that's then more dependent on the context,
not the word.)

The implication of calling someone who isn't "gay" is that being gay is
somehow bad or something to be offended about. That is as clear a homophobic
statement as there can be.

It is homophobic, by the way, even if the intent of the speaker isn't there.

~~~
jiggy2011
Perhaps, but construction workers tend not to spend much time considering the
implications of language in the way that people who are college educated
might. So what you have is more a clash of the cultures than real homophobia.

The way I've always thought of the word "gay" being used in that way was not
so much that it was bad to be gay (as in the sexuality) so much, but that you
are associating the person with certain stereotypical gay traits such as
effeminacy which would be somewhat insulting to a stereotypical macho
construction worker.

~~~
arrrg
As I already said, that's also sexist. Gender policing is not ok. (And you
cannot ignore what gay usually means.)

~~~
jiggy2011
That depends, if you are in an environment the person on the receiving end
doesn't take offence and will happily give insults back then it doesn't really
matter.

The difficulty is when you put people not used to that environment into it,
the real issue is a conflict in expectations rather than the exact language
used.

------
waterlion
I know this is a little off-topic but I spent a while wondering why the
article ("I'm not scared of you any more") bore no resemblance to the title
("Too fit for the role").

Turns out I dismissed the popup window automatically because 100% of popup
windows are trying to sell social media experience extravaganzas and must be
removed to see the actual content.

Turns out this blogging software shows its main content as a superimposed
popup/lightbox thing.

So, if you end up reading the wrong article, perhaps you clicked close on the
popup before it loaded.

------
jbcurtin2
Anyone else notice that 'The Vagenda' has a lot of articles that are aimed at
men being jerks? I think any man reading this site will not have an accurate
understanding as to what any writer is trying to convey. - My opinion on this
article: If you don't like it leave; there are plenty of establishments
that'll treat you the way you want to be treated. You just have to go through
all the BS to figure out what you like and it obviously isn't this.

~~~
thezoid
> Anyone else notice that 'The Vagenda' has a lot of articles that are aimed
> at men being jerks?

I knew immediately by reading the domain that it was going to be a feminist
leaning blog, and that's totally fine. Perhaps that's what their content is
based on. Unfortunately there's lots of examples of men being jerks, so they
have a massive grab bag to pull content from.

> If you don't like it leave

That's always the easy answer, and it's unrealistic and unfair. You don't know
the conditions of the author. Maybe they have a boatload of debt or are in a
situation where they need stability. Moving jobs is always a risk because
there are things like probation periods. Even if you are good at what you do,
a probation period is still scary, even more so if you have dependents.

------
SZenith
Sexism, bad. But let's keep our heads on straight here.

Just because someone treats you like shit, and you're a woman, doesn't mean
it's sexism.

1\. Maybe they treat her like shit because she's new, and the feminine stuff
is just one reason to rag on her. If she was a tall guy, they'd probably make
fun of that too.

2\. Maybe they treat her like shit because, for some reason, despite all this,
she hasn't actually asked them to stop -- just complained about it on the
Internet

A lot of people will get angry at me for this, because sexism is a very real
problem.

But not everything is fucking sexism.

------
digitalWestie
Damn, I was just wondering about this the other day. I.e., how the software
world compares to the engineering world. Seems my guesses were right in this
case.

------
smurph
"Get your rat out"? Seriously? That's got to be one of the most foul things
I've ever heard. Real life is so much more disgusting than fiction.

------
angersock
Yep. Sounds like shop talk--amazing how things at machine shops, oil rigs, and
construction sites can be very similar at times. The women I know that work in
any of those fields tend to either ignore it or join in--depending on their
mood.

One wonders how things would be different were roles reversed--indeed, what
sort of talk was common on factory floors during the world wars?

~~~
Swizec
When a man walks into a predominantly female group, the behaviour is exactly
the same, just the words are different.

At least in my experience.

~~~
tome
I would be interested in hearing about your experience.

~~~
Swizec
Well there are two.

1\. I was out with a group of female friends. Them being 3 to 4 females who
have known each other for ages, me being the newcomer. I got the distinct
feeling that men are walking penises. (granted they were all in their early
twenties)

2\. Living with my mum and sister (and female cat). Every day I am reminded
that a man is incapable of tying his own shoes without a woman's help. We are
these helpless sort of creatures you know, women only put up with us out of
the kindness of their hearts and because we're good for a lay now and then.

~~~
IsaacL
You seem to be all over this thread saying "oh well this is bad but men also
have it equally bad sexism is exaggerated etc etc".

I agree that women can be shitty to men. But men, in general, can be far
shittier to women. Being patronised by your female relatives is a completely
different league to having sexual abuse shouted at you by strangers (strangers
who should be subordinate to your professional expertise).

And yes, I've worked in blue collar jobs (factories, as a cleaner, as a
binman), and I too found it hard to fit in with that culture. But I had it
nowhere near as bad as this woman did.

~~~
Swizec
I'm saying this isn't a gender issue. This is a basic human psychology issue.
This is the way humans behave, regardless of gender. Gender doesn't even have
anything to do with it, gender just defines the specific words used in the
overall pattern.

In the article men are making fun of a woman. Here on HN startups are making
fun of lifestyle businesses. On r/programming Scala developers are making fun
of Java developers. On imgur people are making fun of 9gag. The internet is
making fun of Bieber fans. Bieber fans are making fun of old people. Old
people make fun of young people. Young people make fun of old people.

People poke fun at each other. It's how we establish groups. It's how we
operate. We pick a trait and converge around it, as soon as we see a member of
the species who does not have that trait, we make fun of them and maybe, just
maybe, we eventually let them join the group.

If you want to fight sexism, go to a country that hasn't given women the vote,
or women are still treated as property. _that_ 's sexism.

~~~
IsaacL
"People poke fun at each other. It's how we establish groups. It's how we
operate. We pick a trait and converge around it, as soon as we see a member of
the species who does not have that trait, we make fun of them and maybe, just
maybe, we eventually let them join the group."

That's true. But the traits chosen are not arbitrary. There are some traits
which are consistently used to exclude people from certain groups. As a
lifestyle entrepreneur, people on HN look down on me. 99% of the population
don't care. Whereas if I was female, or black, or whatever, suddenly I find
myself excluded from a lot more groups.

Yes, there is much worse sexism in the world, but I can't think of many people
who would think shouting sexual abuse at your manager as anything other than
sexism. You seem like an intelligent guy, but you seem to have already reached
the conclusion that this isn't sexism and are now trying to justify that
conclusion.

~~~
Swizec
I have reached the conclusion that this is a deeper issue that in this
particular instance manifests itself as sexism.

Why treat the symptoms, let's fix the problem eh?

------
antihero
Sounds like a company of bellends.

------
michaelfeathers
I'm trying to understand the "anthropomorphic chin" reference.

~~~
cafard
I think she means "shaven" as there is a reference to him having a badger on
his chin a few lines up.

------
ivanca
You are a sexually attractive woman in a place where sexually attractive women
are scarce. In almost any other context you would get substancial benefits for
that like more promotions, job opportunities and more invitations to events
than the average woman. But we will not see you complaining about that when it
happens, don't we?

~~~
adaml_623
You are rude, offensive, and delusional. Please try to sort out these problems
before attempting to contribute to HN.

~~~
ivanca
Perhaps rude and offensive. Delusional never:

[http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/games-primates-
play/2012...](http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/games-primates-
play/201203/the-truth-about-why-beautiful-people-are-more-successful)

[http://www.thedailybeast.com/newsweek/2010/07/19/the-
beauty-...](http://www.thedailybeast.com/newsweek/2010/07/19/the-beauty-
advantage.html)

[http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/07495978859...](http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/0749597885900354)

------
omd
Oh god, another article about gender equality on HN. You would have better
luck selling Bieber tickets on a death metal forum.

