
YC: Help, I quit my job, now I cannot get Apple to pay me out for iPhone Apps - zoomboy
Hi HN,<p>(Text below is pretty long, forgive me)<p>I'm a long-time user, you may know me on this site, but I'll use this brand new account because I don't want this story to be public yet.<p>I registered an iPhone developer account about a year ago (a company account, with an English Ltd). I started with one small app, made $30 in the first month, then $90, then $700, $1000, $2500, $3000, then $3500.<p>Good income, right? Problem is, I have never seen a penny of it. When I signed up, I made a mistake. I had registered as a company, but I gave my personal bank account. There was a field to enter the account information, it went through a verification process of a few days, and came back alright.<p>At the point I made $2500, I quit my job. Things were looking good. A few days later, Apple wrote me an email saying that they tried to pay me and it did not go through.<p>After a series of emails, it turned out that even though Apple lets you specify the Account holder name, they do not send to that account name! They send to the company name. My bank of course rejected this transfer from Apple.<p>So I tried to make a bank account in England. I could not because I don't live in England! I decided to change the company to a company in my home country, and the bank as well.<p>This process took well over 3 months to do. Apple would take weeks to reply emails, and I had to send a letter to Steve Jobs and some other random high-ups at Apple before some head of department suddenly appeared on the scene, and got the issue resolved in a couple of weeks.<p>At this point, my savings had dried up (yes, I did not have a lot), and I had to borrow money to live. Apple would always say that they were shortly about to resolve the issue, I just had to sign this or that or fax to this number this document. It kept dragging on, till finally, last week on friday, it was over! Company name was changed, bank account was changed.<p>Apple issued me a payment file for $11.000, the amount they are owing me. I checked my bank account several times. Nothing.<p>Then I wrote an email, asking why I had not received the money. They wrote back saying that all income was still associated with the old bank account because it was earned by that account, and that they could not transfer the money to the new account. They had sent the money to the very same account I had started the process with!<p>Now, in spite of earning $450 on saturday, $400 on sunday with my iPhone apps, I am broke and don't even have enough on my bank account to pay my rent.<p>I feel like I'm an ant trying to break down the great wall of china - HN, What can I do? Who can I email to solve this problem for me? Before going public with this, what can I do? How do I make them reconfigure whatever Oracle payment system is preventing them from just transfering the money to the correct account?<p>What steps can I still take here?
======
vessenes
Let me see if I understand what's happening.

\-------------

You live somewhere not in England.

Apple has a bank account SWIFT Code and International Wire Address (thingy?)
for you with:

1) Your personal account number

2) Your Fake Business Name

in their database.

The account is with an English Bank.

They will not send a wire to any account but your personal account, and they
will not send the wire to any name but your business name for the money
already accrued to this account.

\---------

If all this is true, this is not Apple's fault. The only people who can help
you are your bankers, at least in the near term.

You should change your account now so that at least new payments can go to the
proper place. (Did I understand that part of your story correctly?)

Again, if I understand your story correctly, I think your only solution is to
sit down with at least a medium-level banker from the bank in question,
explain the situation, and get them to add the Fake Business Name to your
account for the purposes of this wire.

You might reasonably be expected to register such a business name in England
first, and prove that you are in control of the company. You might also need
to sign affidavits or pay some sort of withholding tax.

If you're not in England, this is going to be an expensive process, as you
will likely have to travel. I know this from reading your e-mail and
evaluating your English skills: what you need done is so close to fraud and so
sketchy sounding that only if you present well in person and can find someone
helpful are you going to get this done.

The other, longer, solution is to send Apple a signed affidavit explaining the
situation and demanding that they release the money to another account. You'll
probably have to take them to court to get someone to ignore the internal
controls rules they have in place.

In the great scheme of business costs, this would usually be considered a
write-off, meaning you're likely going to spend many months and many thousands
of dollars to get your $11k back. You'll need to decide if it's worth
pursuing; in the interim, make sure you get some cash in the bank and don't
let the rest of your financial world fall apart!

~~~
netsp
Are you reading between the lines here? I didn't read fake business name. I
read 1) business name 2) personal account.

~~~
ars
Fake business name is just another word for business name, also called doing
business as, and fictitious name.

It just means it's a name you are using, but it's not your name.

All non-corporation company names are legally fake names.

~~~
netsp
I think the implication of 'fake business name' is business name that is not
registered as your business. Otherwise, why have a qualifier?

Anyway, what I mean is that the OP messed up with registering his business.

~~~
ars
Not all states require businesses to register DBA (doing business as) names.

~~~
netsp
An unregistered DBA wouldn't have a location.

~~~
qaexl
You guys are assuming that the specifics of DBA works the same in England.

There's no point in setting up a DBA with a limited liability entity. Why?
You're basically saying, "I don't want the limited liability".

I don't know the specifics of this transaction, and it really, really looks
sketchy. The only reason I even think it has credibility is because it was
posted in detail on HN. In most other forums, I would chalk this up to a
Nigerian scam. Seriously.

I still think there may be a way to pull out the money _if_ the English Ltd
has actually been established and the OP has control over it. Having the
English Ltd establish a bank account, pull the money from that. If Apple balks
over _that_ , than that really is Apple's fault. As the situation stands
though, if the OP went public over this, I think I'd have the same reaction as
the lady who sued McDonald's over spilling her own coffee on her lap, or those
patent trolls out in Texas.

------
jacquesm
I hate to say this, but I think you should first call your old boss and see if
you can get your job back.

Apple owes you that money, but it could be a long time before you get it.

Also, and this is of course something you already realize but it needs to be
said: The money isn't in the bank until it is in the bank, never _ever_ make a
decision based on money that you haven't got yet.

~~~
kyro
I feel if everyone took that last bit of advice to heart, no one would ever
start a startup.

~~~
jacquesm
If you don't take that bit of advice to heart your first startup will be your
last.

------
colinplamondon
That's bizarre- we had some issues with bank account info and Apple emailed
back within an hour and a half.

Are you messaging ITSPayments@apple.com? I found them really helpful and
responsive. I went through the contact form in iTunes Connect from Financial
Reports. Key phrase is Missing Developer Payment in the subject line, along
with your company name.

~~~
charlesju
Apple's finance department has been pretty fast with us too.

~~~
qaexl
The problem isn't that Apple isn't paying him. The problem is that the OP set
up a limited company then used his personal account. That's very sketchy.

~~~
gaius
Indeed. From the POV of Apple Accounts Payable, it looks like tax evasion and
they'd be in a world of shit if they knowingly went along with it.

"This guy in country A sets up a company in country B but wants the payment
sent to his personal account _and his own bank aren't happy about it_ ",
they'll be thinking, "and now he wants payment sent somewhere else again..."

The company I work for does a lot of cross-border financial activity and it's
all anonymized - you don't know who your counterparty is and they don't know
who you are, we're the middlemen and we take care of everything. Something
like this would definitely set our alarm bells ringing.

~~~
antonovka
_The company I work for does a lot of cross-border financial activity and it's
all anonymized - you don't know who your counterparty is and they don't know
who you are, we're the middlemen and we take care of everything. Something
like this would definitely set our alarm bells ringing._

At which point, you would presumably enter into a dialog to resolve said alarm
bells?

~~~
gaius
There are a range of possible responses from "sorry, our mistake" to a local
SWAT team kicking their door in. It would depend :-)

------
ghshephard
Okay, call me cynical, but doesn't this read like an HN version of a 419 scam?
It has everything, an "unknown" user account with almost no Karma, the
personal appeal, the money in an offshore, specific dollar figures, the
temptation to help the person in return for a cut of the money - All with an
HN twist (Apple Store acting like a tool).

Sadly, this may all be in the up-and-up, and I'm just biased from years of
being exposed to the Intertubes...

~~~
wjy
"The temptation to help the person in return for a cut of the money" is not
the same as "asking for help and promising a cut of the money". You're seeing
intent where none is expressed.

There's no appeal for you to do anything shady or stupid.

Wise up. By posting your rumination, you're casting an unwarranted shadow on
the whole situation.

~~~
ghshephard
So, here's the thing - Every AppStore developer I run into that posts a story
that may go memetic, almost _always_ identifies themselves, and their App. If
umpteen million people are about to read your story, that's a potential many
hundreds of thousands of dollars of revenue.

Ask any AppStore developer that's been in the game for a while, going public
is what it's _all_ about.

With that said, yeah - there's a good chance this is on the up-and-up, and I'm
not suggesting that people not provide advice, or help zoomboy out - just
consider your possible downsides prior to sending cash.

------
ryanwaggoner
Here's a wacky idea that might work if I understand your story correctly: Can
you change your personal legal name to the name of the fake company? I have no
idea if that's feasible, legal, possible, what the ramifications are, etc, but
I'm assuming that if you did so and had the bank change the name on the
account to your new legal name, you could receive payments there, right? Might
be worth talking to someone about...

~~~
gfodor
Some people get a tattoo to remember a trying time in their life, others...

~~~
jacquesm
Yes, but man... it's one thing to be called 'Sure, Not', quite another to
spend the rest of your days being called 'PhoneZone, Hot'...

------
gojomo
Reading lots of the tangents only make me more confused. If it's a legitimate
UK LTD -- not just "registered over the internet without meeting the legal
director requirements" -- it can get a bank account.

To get the money that's collected so far, sounds like the poster needs to do
one of the following:

(1) Get Apple to change the 'company name' to match his legitimate bank
accountholder name. I can see why Apple wouldn't want to do this, especially
if they've already associated tax IDs and so forth with the sketchy LTD.

(2) Get the bank to change the accountholder name to match the intended target
of Apple's payment. I can see why a bank couldn't do that, changing a personal
account to a corporate or DBA accout, due to policy and regulation.

(3) Create a new entity, with a proper bank account, and then convince Apple
it is the legitimate successor/acquirer-of-interest in the old company. This
might offer the greatest odds of getting the original monies back, but only
after sending lots of documents back-and-forth to prove everything's on the
up-and-up.

In the meantime, I would say the top priority is to redirect the current
stream of interest in your apps and money to some _new_ targets where things
are done right from the get-go. Ignore sunk costs and stop collecting more
money where it may not be retrievable. Set up a new developer account and bank
account the right way from scratch ASAP; rerelease your apps there and do
something with the old apps that directs people to the new home.

One final thought: maybe Apple can mail a check to the LTD at its official
address? But that again assumes it's a real LTD, that can transact legal
business, with the poster as an officer. It seems like that may not be the
case -- the poster has bought a broken, useless fiction over the internet, and
then told Apple to pay that fiction.

------
sharpn
Having worked in UK Banking I can only suggest you google phrases like eg.
'know your customer KYC regulations' and 'anti-money laundering AML' to see
why Apple cannot send, and your bank cannot recieve, funds in the ficticious
company name to your non-UK account. If you try having Apple ammend your
company name & location to your own name - that could work. Good luck.

------
alain94040
Sorry but _you_ made the mistake. And then you made another one in trying to
fix the first one.

The only sound approach is to have your corporation, which owns the money (not
you), open a bank account that belongs to the corporation. It will have to be
in the UK.

Is that a problem because you don't live in the UK? Maybe you should have
thought about it before _you_ chose to create a company in the UK. Why create
a company if you can't create a bank account at the same time? How did you
expect to have the company make money?

If you thought you could just use a bogus company front and cash the checks on
your personal account with no records, well, you don't deserve much help.

~~~
antonovka
_If you thought you could just use a bogus company front and cash the checks
on your personal account with no records, well, you don't deserve much help._

They aren't checks. They're wire transfers. The mistake is understandable, and
really -- it's not that big of a mistake. Apple hasn't paid anything out yet,
the documentation can almost certainly be changed -- Apple simply needs to
_respond to his queries_.

Why work so hard to blame the person who makes a simple mistake and gets stuck
in an endless bureaucracy? The process is intimidating, poorly documented, and
incredibly confusing. Apple provides very little assistance when things go
wrong, and quite often, mistakes made in the web UI can not be rectified
without going through human support -- who will, more often than not (from
experience), simply ignore you.

~~~
cakesy
Yes, the process is poorly described, but it is not a simple mistake.

Why create a company at all? Why create a fake company, one that does not have
a bank account associated with it? Why do so in a country you don't live in?

This all sounds very strange.

~~~
rjurney
Have you never heard of using a personal account 'Doing Business As'? Its not
'fake' in the sense you're thinking about, its done all the time.

------
jmorin007
In terms of needing to eat and pay rent, iPhone App developers are still in
demand. Why don't you pick up some contract work, take a percentage up front
and the rest on completion of the app, and continue trying to make headway
with Apple on the side?

------
Sam_Odio
Email me, I'll spot you some cash (if your story is legit).

We can also talk about subcontracting work if you're interested.

~~~
jacquesm
There's a gentleman.

~~~
Sam_Odio
Accidentally deleted original post:

"Email me and I can spot you some cash (if your story is legit)."

Don't take it the wrong way, just one HNer helping another.

~~~
zoomboy
I'm more interested in getting the money out in a timely manner than in
borrowing money from anyone. If it came to that, I can ask friends to give me
some more money.

------
bdfh42
Think of it the other way around.

Fred is an employee of your company that builds an iPhone app. Fred is
responsible for registering it but decides to use his personal account
details. If Apple paid the money into Fred's account you would be reasonably
aggrieved

So there is nothing wrong here - well after your rather odd decision to
register as one legal entity (a UK Limited Company) but provide the bank
account details of another legal entity (yourself).

I suspect that the money is effectively lost to you. and that you should
withdraw the app (if you can) and re-register honestly and clearly as
yourself.

~~~
antonovka
_I suspect that the money is effectively lost to you. and that you should
withdraw the app (if you can) and re-register honestly and clearly as
yourself._

Are you seriously claiming that -- if they were so inclined -- Apple couldn't
safely resolve this issue within an hour or two?

~~~
vessenes
The problem is that this issue is indistinguishable from the following
scenario from Apple's point of view:

Corporation Makes Application

Programmer has control of communication with Apple Store

Programmer leaves Corporation aggrieved

Programmer asks Apple to personally wire him the Corporation's Money

Corporation is f-ed.

That is the fundamental problem he has getting this issue solved, and I'm
guessing that from his story that his communication skills aren't helping
people at Apple get in a place to help him.

~~~
aaronblohowiak
Thats why notorized articles of incorporation &c. should be sufficient.

~~~
tptacek
He's not incorporated though, is he? Isn't that his problem? He (for some
reason) made up a fake company in a country he doesn't even live in.

~~~
antonovka
_He (for some reason) made up a fake company in a country he doesn't even live
in._

Which, if true, Apple never actually verified existed in the first place.
Seems a bit odd to be pushing for it now.

I can't really blame him, either. The sign-up is confusing, the legal
requirements are often poorly specified, and it's to do something that seems
to makes sense (I want a fictitious name, I'll create the company later)
that's actually a really bad idea given Apple's requirements.

~~~
tptacek
I don't think there's any ambiguity here about whether the author made a
mistake. He knew he didn't have the company when he started. He just didn't
expect that mistake to cost him so much. I sympathize, but his mistake
involves both taxes and accounting, and I'm having a hard time blaming Apple
for the fact that it's a debacle.

~~~
antonovka
I have no trouble blaming Apple for failing to resolve an outstanding debt
after many months of poor communication with the individual to which they owe.

~~~
antonovka
Surprised at the downvotes. Clearly you people have never had to deal with
trying to get anything done with Apple or any other similar massive
inattentive bureaucracy (like, say, immigration services?).

It's one thing to, in good faith, work through an outstanding issue with
someone over the course of months, another to simply ignore any/all requests
until they go through extraordinary measures to capture your attention.

------
nearestneighbor
> made $30 in the first month, then $90, then $700, $1000, $2500, $3000, then
> $3500.

By the way, how much do iPhone developers normally make if they are working
full-time? Does anyone know of any stats somewhere?

~~~
notauser
The only one I know personally who is a FTE is making about $40-50k (in the
UK).

Most programmers of his seniority in central London are in about the same
range. An good architect/team lead with about 10 years experience would be
lucky to make $100k.

~~~
petercooper
So in the £24k-£30k range? That's pretty poor if so. That'd be the pay at
entry level in a tech that's past its peak, not something highly in demand.

Most mid-level developers I know of in London are in the £30-£40k bracket,
with managers/team leads coming in at £40k+.

Unless, of course, you used $ signs where you meant £/GBP :-)

~~~
notauser
No, I translated back to USD for the benefit of the HN audience. :)

------
ericb
When it comes to support, there is always another supervisor. In your case, it
sounds like at least once, you managed to get the attention of someone higher
up the tree.

I would immediately follow up with those person(s) again thanking them for
their help, but explaining that you need them to clear this transfer with
person x.

If I owe someone money, but they give me their banking details wrong, that
doesn't mean I don't owe them any more.

Also, a letter from an attorney to the right people might be effective. Not
sure where to get someone who will write this for "free" though...

~~~
antonovka
_When it comes to support, there is always another supervisor._

You've clearly never dealt with Apple or the AppStore ;)

~~~
ericb
I had inferred their existence by their effects (non-empowered frontline
support reps)--like dark matter. :-)

I should apply for that job--might leave me with time to work on my startup.

------
qaexl
Do you control the English Ltd?

Get your app on your new account with your new company. By the way, the whole
point of limited liability companies is so that a different legal entity is
handling the transaction -- at least in America, using your personal account
with a corp or an LLC is a very bad idea. The corp/LLC _needs_ to be operating
from its own checking account.

If you have control over that English LTD, get a bank account from there.
Since you don't live there, one method is asking someone who is there enter in
as a partner or someone who would be able to open up the account there. You'd
probably have to provide enough evidence of credibility so you don't come
across like a Nigerian scammer. Give that person a fee to setup the account, a
percentage of how much Apple actually gives to you. Don't be greedy, cut your
losses, the amount you pay for someone to pull the money out is a great lesson
to learn (you probably won't make that same mistake again). Once it is done,
shutdown the old account and the company and keep your records. In the
meantime, make sure new revenue isn't going into the old account. You'll also
want to make your intellectual property and ownership of the copyrights are
very clear so there is no question down the road on who owns what.

------
onoj
Sorry, don't follow why you cannot set up a bank account in your (original)
company name. Easy to do with your company registration documents.

~~~
jlees
Indeed. If the Ltd company is valid, which it should be, it will have a
Certificate of Incorporation and a UK business address - even if said is only
a virtual address. Visit England, pop into your bank and set up a business
account. Though the intricacies of this seem a little convoluted so maybe
Apple won't pay to that because it's not the account stated when you first
signed up?

I definitely think you need to come to England in person and sit down with the
bank manager of your personal branch, at least.

~~~
zoomboy
You can't setup a business bank account with an english ltd if one of the
directors does not live in england. I checked that option already, england is
not too far.

~~~
ericb
So all you need is an english director.

------
jayliew
In the mean time, have you also considering hitting up sites like
<http://www.couchsurfing.org/> , to bum off a place to stay - in exchange for
possible profits when you do actually get it, if you have to?

------
hboon
ITS vendor email accounts don't respond timingly and usually they respond with
template replies instead. Try making phone calls to your local Apple Developer
Support (ADC). It's usually much easier to talk to "local" people. They might
be able to refer you to someone.

Did you ask them to change your account from a company to a individual
account? They allow you to change from an individual account to company.
Perhaps the reverse is possible.

For the record, I waited 3 months for my paid/free apps contract to be done.
That means I had 3 months where I couldn't put up anything on the app store.
(and yes I know, I screwed up first, to let this have a chance of happening).

------
ichverstehe
Go public with it. Right now you are just some random anonymous guy claiming
something. This story will probably hit pretty good on miscellanous news
sites; Apple gets bad press, resolves your issue, and you get, well, press.
Yay!

~~~
jacquesm
Or they decide he's too much of a pain, refund the people that bought his app
their $ and yank it.

~~~
ichverstehe
That seems plausible, sure.

~~~
wan23
That sounds pretty unlikely. Why would they respond to a an issue that's
already public with a move that would generate even more bad press? You know
that right after that, you would see "Apple to Dev: All your revenues are
belong to us" as the first item on the HN front page.

~~~
jacquesm
That depends on how you are looking at it. From Apples point of view this
might look a bit shady, corporate account, private name, lots of changes. The
app may be great but on Apples financial screens it's a mere blip.

If the OP had done his homework a bit better this whole issue would have never
existed in the first place.

He's only acting like this now because his savings have run out.

BigCo (including Apple) eventually will pay, I'm sure they will. But if you
start to make waves then all bets are off, it might work to your advantage, it
might not. I would not go that route until I had tried a bunch of others, such
as trying to get someone a bit higher up in the pecking order to look at it
and break the gridlock.

------
awwx
How about opening a US bank account for your old UK business?

Edit: oh, I see in one of your comments that you weren't able to do that
because your old UK business wasn't registered.

OK, so as I understand it, Apple owes money to a UK business (that in turn
belongs to you), but you can't get the money because your UK business has no
bank account and isn't registered.

I wonder if Apple can legally take money that it owes to your UK business and
give it to a different business (your US business), even if it wanted to?

I think you need to talk to a lawyer in corporate law, and find out how you
get money from your UK business that you have no bank account for and haven't
registered.

~~~
zoomboy
The UK business was registered. Over the internet.

~~~
jacquesm
Why ? What was your reason for doing it this way in the first place, that's
what I can't get my head wrapped around.

~~~
schmidp
As someone from Austria I can easily understand why he created a UK LTD
without actually living there.

Take Austria for example, you need to have €35000 in equity (I hope that is
the right financial vocabulary) to start a GmbH - a company type similar to an
LTD in terms of liability.

In the EU there is a ruling that you can create a company in any EU state,
without actually living there. Of course you still have to obey the laws (of
both countries) regarding taxes.

So if you want limited liability but you don't have enough cash upfront, a UK
LTD can be a good idea. But you usually create a UK bank account for your
company after incorporating.

------
MichaelApproved
Contact the old bank _branch manager_ and tell him/her your situation. If
you've had an account for a while it's likely they'll believe you and might be
able to accept the wire on your behalf.

------
hop
You may want to form a legit company.

Get an EIN number from the IRS -
[http://www.irs.gov/businesses/small/article/0,,id=98350,00.h...](http://www.irs.gov/businesses/small/article/0,,id=98350,00.html)

Set up a business banking account with a bank using that number. Give that
info to Apple, when they pay you, use some of that money to set up an LLC
through legal zoom - just the bare stuff, none of the extra fluff they try to
sell you.

And at some point you'll have to pay some taxes. Good luck!

------
83457
[http://maps.google.com/maps?saddr=&daddr=1+Infinite+Loop...](http://maps.google.com/maps?saddr=&daddr=1+Infinite+Loop+95014)

------
FreeRadical
If you have a limited business - can you tie your personal account to the
business?

If you it's not a registered limited businesss - let the bank know you want to
set up as a sole trader and use the business name you gave to apple.

Can you re-register on apple as a developer with correct details and apps then
chase up your old payments in the background?

------
parkern
I've found the small team in charge of the app store/itunes connect customer
support to be very helpful. You mention that you emailed them. What did they
say when you called?

~~~
zoomboy
This issue was something that was above their level.

------
jacquesm
I've been thinking a bit about this, how about asking your bank to change the
name for the account to your legal name until the money can be received, then
change it back ?

~~~
zoomboy
The bank account is a private account that needs an ID. I also tried to setup
a business account with the legal name, but they did not accept the UK
company, as it is not registered in my home country. So I decided to simply
setup a new company here, as that seemed (at the time) as the fastest
solution.

~~~
aaronblohowiak
Talk to the bank manager and explain the situation.

------
cmelbye
I don't have any advice, but good luck to you. I've already had problems with
verification, and I haven't even started submitting applications yet.

------
UptownArts
Stop the bleeding! Borrow $99, create a new dev account, and submit all your
apps through the new account.

------
marcamillion
Pics...or it didn't happen...sorry...I had to.

------
aaronblohowiak
Can you ask that they simply cut you a cheque?

------
mattmaroon
I'd file a claim in small claims court, then tell every blogger about it.
Might stir up enough commotion to get it fixed. I've seen a couple press hits
about people taking Google to small claims over Adsense.

~~~
jacquesm
Good luck with that.

For starters, which court ?

The one where his 'original' business was listed ? (the UK one). The court in
the home country ? (why would it have standing ? )

The one where apple resides ?

As soon as you go 'cross border' the costs of litigation square.

~~~
jongraehl
I'd think "multiplied by some constant" rather than "squared".

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jacquesm
It was a joke.

