
Boy Scouts Announce They Will Accept Girls - votepaunchy
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/11/us/boy-scouts-girls.html
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MR4D
This is sad. Not that they accept girls, but that the Girl Scouts apparently
suck so much at understanding their audience.

Fallout from this would probably result in either 1) the Girl Scouts becoming
much better at satisfying their target audience or 2) the Girl Scouts
essentially becoming an irrelevant organization.

I hope the first, but the latter looks more likely. They’ve hidden behind
cookie sales for years, and outside that, I can’t tell you one thing that they
do.

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mikestew
_They’ve hidden behind cookie sales for years, and outside that, I can’t tell
you one thing that they do._

You think Boy Scouts, you think Eagle scouts, tying knots, and camping.
Outdoorsy, can-do, and always prepared. The animal shelter at which I
volunteer has benefitted from the multiple Eagle Scout projects that built
needed equipment for us. You think Girl Scouts, you think Thin Mints. A Girl
Scout could have built the agility equipment for that same animal shelter.
Instead, the local GS troop did a water color wall painting. Way to go, you
girls stay and decorate while the boys build useful stuff. That's a failure
not only of marketing, but also of programming.

"You said you don't know jack about boating, how'd you know how to tie a
bowline?"

"I was a Boy Scout."

That's my answer to a lot of "how'd you know...?" questions. And I'll bet not
a week goes by that I don't use knowledge gained from Boy Scouts. From
sharpening a kitchen knife to tying a timberline hitch for an ad hoc guy line,
I wonder if even a day goes by that I don't use knowledge gained from scouts.
Not to mention the leadership and mental attitude aspects.

I don't recall a woman ever answering "how'd you...?" with "I was a Girl
Scout". Of the women I've questioned who were in Girl Scouts, I don't recall
any that found it to be a particularly valuable experience.

Now, that's certainly anecdotal, and most likely very dated given my age. But
GSA needs better PR than "we sell cookies", and they need the programs to
match. I'm neutral on BSA accepting girls, but I'm disappointed that the GSA
has failed girls such that it was needed to begin with.

~~~
op00to
When I think of Boy Scout leadership, I think of religious loonies who have an
irrational fear of gay and transgendered scouts and leaders.

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Clubber
I think that's a pretty good idea. Our daughter joined the Girl Scouts for two
years and all she got out of it was to be free child labor for cookie
manufacturers. Apparently the troop leader did something fishy with the cookie
money and even though they met their goal, they didn't get the reward. We
still have boxes of the stuff in our pantry.

I was a Weeblo (Boy Scouts) as a kid and didn't get much out of it other than
classroom learning, but it was better than selling cookies. I got bored after
a few months and didn't go back. Like any nationwide organization, the quality
is determined by the locality support.

I guess they will have to change their name from The Boy Scouts if enough
girls show interest.

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SOLAR_FIELDS
Putting aside the context of whether this makes sense with the existence of
Girl Scouts, as an Eagle Scout I’m pretty happy that the organization has made
strides to turn around its image of exclusivity. It’s certainly about 15 years
later than it needed to be, but such a huge organization that is dedicated to
inspiring ideals in young people should be sending the right message. It’s a
far cry from the early 2000’s era Boy Scouts which was projecting a much
different message.

I’m quite ambivalent about the organization’s attitude toward religion, in
that it is impossible to be an outspoken atheist and reach the rank of Eagle
Scout. To reach the highest rank you must undergo an Eagle board of review,
which is an interview of sorts with highly ranked regional council members.
During mine, I was asked questions that were mostly formalities until the
final question: “Do you believe in a higher power?” When given context to the
question, it made a bit more sense: I was told the higher power could be
anything, like the Mother Nature or karma. It was then that I understood that
the question, however poorly worded, isn’t meant to really be around religion,
but instead letting go of your ego. There are much better ways to ask that
sort of question though, and being atheist and letting go of your ego are not
two mutually exclusive properties.

I was agnostic at the time so it was easy for me, but I still question the
approach now even though it wasn’t the WASP-like approach I expected.

~~~
craftkiller
Make no mistake, they were asking if you believed in "God". The BSA prohibits
atheists / agnostics [1]

My troop told me to lie. I chose to not participate.

[1]
[https://web.archive.org/web/20080509074048/http://www.bsaleg...](https://web.archive.org/web/20080509074048/http://www.bsalegal.org/duty-
to-god-cases-224.asp)

~~~
ajhurliman
Literally any belief system as long as it's not atheist/ agnostic. It just
blows my mind that people draw the line there.

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skissane
Many other countries already have gender-integrated scouting, so the BSA is
just following in the footsteps of much of the rest of the world. Here in
Australia, Scouts have accepted girls for decades, although there is still a
separate girls-only Girl Guides organisation (equivalent to Girl Scouts).
Anecdotally, many girls prefer Scouts to Guides. I think if you give young
people the choice between gender-integrated or gender-segregated activities,
most will prefer the former, especially once they reach a certain age. It
varies from individual group to individual group, but as a generalisation,
Scouts tends to put greater emphasis on outdoor activities than Guides, and
some girls find that greater emphasis appealing. From a parent's viewpoint, if
you have children of both genders, then being able to put them all in the same
program can have its logistical advantages.

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ntuch
What if it turns out that there is a deep-seated psychological need present in
many (NOT ALL) humans to participate in peer groups defined along lines of
gender - and what if it turns out that if society denies them acceptable
outlets for this need, that they fill the need by joining socially
unacceptable groups (ie. gangs)? If we suspect that this psychological need is
present, do we persist in denying acceptable outlets for it?

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Waterluvian
So in fewer words you're asking, "what if by allowing girls into scouts, boy
scouts will be driven to join gangs?"

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pretendscholar
You should be charitable with the way you interpret what people say. That
person probably meant "e.g. gangs." I find it frustrating how combative people
are when discussing anything on the fringes of what is socially acceptable to
say.

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TheAdamAndChe
Boy scouts in the past was more about camping and activities. It was about
self-improvement and learning how to be men. Now that purpose seems to be
weakening.

Men and women are different, both physically and psychologically[1]. Acting
like those differences don't exist hurts everyone IMO. Sure, we should be
accepting of aberrations from the norm, but that doesn't mean we should hurt
the majority in the process.

[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_differences_in_humans](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_differences_in_humans)

~~~
sciurus
What is it that Boy Scouts teaches that you don't think girls should be
taught?

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TheAdamAndChe
It's not that I don't think girls shouldn't be taught certain information, but
it's rather a mindset that is taught. A group of boys being led by men can
learn a mindset better suited for the mind of a man. With their greater
testosterone, men have much more aggression an desire for status overall than
women, and with guidance by a father figure, can learn to harness and focus
that energy in a way a woman wouldn't be able to. I worry that in the pursuit
of inclusion, that kind of mindset implanting will be lost.

~~~
alehul
I agree with you on a scientific level, for example, that men have more
testosterone and thus are more likely to be aggressive in their pursuits,
which is often critical to success. At the same time, however, there are many
men who are less aggressive and women who are more aggressive; broad averages
aren't the perfect solution.

Couldn't we promote this 'aggressive' ideology as genderless? As long as we're
clear about the Boy Scouts' ideal member (aggressive), nothing will be
disrupted, as only boys and girls who fit and enjoy that environment will
choose to join.

~~~
TheAdamAndChe
> Couldn't we promote this 'aggressive' ideology as genderless?

In an ideal world that might work, but it seems like everywhere that makes
gender inclusivity a priority always ends up losing its masculine traits. I
just don't see why there can't be some boys-only organizations and girls-only
organizations anymore.

~~~
alehul
I understand the plight and I think that has certainly occurred in some
instances, however, in reaching the ideal, the importance seems to be
inclusiveness yet straightforwardness in purpose.

We should aim to promote gender inclusivity, but not stigmatize traditional
gender mindsets, i.e. 'aggressiveness', as negative in the process. If an
institution starts accepting females and then (oftentimes purposely) loses
that common mindset, it simply reinforces gender stereotypes.

~~~
TheAdamAndChe
> it simply reinforces gender stereotypes

I have a serious question, and this arises from my mentality that we should be
accepting of aberrations from the norm, but that doesn't mean we should hurt
the majority in the process.

Why are gender stereotypes bad? If we understand that men and women are
different overall, and that those differences lead to a bimodal distribution
with gender traits something like this[1], then wouldn't stereotypes naturally
emerge? Should we be punishing behavior that large chunks of people align to?

[1]
[https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-YMOXSZ4aTmg/Vwf79cRcjOI/AAAAAAAAO...](https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-YMOXSZ4aTmg/Vwf79cRcjOI/AAAAAAAAORg/KdIWYI__SqUFj7zjELQqvv_PncqvzNWGA/s1600/bimodal.png)

~~~
kd5bjo
Gender stereotypes, when applied to individuals instead of large populations,
severely punish anyone that falls on the "wrong" side of the median.

~~~
maruhan2
Yup I agree with this. People who are not in the norm will struggle moving
forward because they'll always be judged by the cover.

There's also the non-scientific stereotypes. "Girls are worse at math" for
example.

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bigmanwalter
Finally catching up with the rest of the world. As a child in Canada, I was a
member of the local Scout troupe which had quite a few girls in it. Definitely
made for a better, more balanced experience.

We would make fun of the American troupes who weren't allowed to have any
girls in them. Made no sense why not.

~~~
cr0sh
> As a child in Canada...Made no sense why not.

That's pretty much the answer right there.

Something you have to understand about the BSA is just how deeply enmeshed
religion - specifically Christianity (with a heavy leaning toward
Protestantism) - is within the organization.

One of the largest (if not the largest) chapters (?) of the BSA is run by the
Mormon church (LDS), for instance.

This is a nice step forward, and certainly unexpected, but they have more yet
to go. For instance, the Girl Scouts allow transgendered individuals to join;
I guess we'll see if the BSA ever allows that.

Also - despite what another poster said earlier - the BSA is not friendly to
atheists, whether they are children, parents of children, or as leaders. There
are plenty of fairly recent incidents and announcements about that, just
within the past couple of years, to attest to that stance.

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Sinnesloschen
Having a 10 year old boy and 7 year old girl. This is great; my daughter
always lamented about how her brother was able to more as a cub scout.

She tried girls scouts for a year, then her troop leader left which caused her
troop to fold. We could have moved her to another troop, but she didn't want
to, she liked the way things were. I would intermittently bring to her
different Cub Scout functions. Every time I would she would be included in the
activities and encouraged to participate by everyone from leaders to parents.

I wasn't keen on the idea of my son joining a god loving, gay hating, etc.
organization. It was his choice, his friends were doing it and I went along to
make sure nothing happened. After three years of cub scouting I can say that
each troop operates on it's own and does what it's leaders feel is best for
the kids. If you don't like how your local troop is run try another one, or
just take your kids camping, do weekly exercises on rope tying, building bird
houses etc.

In Canada they just have Scouts of Canada the genders are treated equally. My
daughter is excited, I'm only saddened she missed out a few years of fun.

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Tempest1981
The Boy Scouts sell popcorn -- it's just less visible/successful. Prices start
at $20. I remember feeling bad for the kid salesmen, as adults balked at the
high prices, asking "do you have anything cheaper?" Products:
[https://www.trails-end.com/store/products](https://www.trails-
end.com/store/products)

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belorn
When I was young here in Sweden, we had "Scouterna" (loosely translated as
_the scouts_ ) which included both boys and girls. With little to no single-
sex education it is very naturally that educational organizations also do not
segregate on gender.

When the boy scouts started in 1908 I would guess that single-sex education
was the norm in the US?

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DoubleCribble
I knew the BSA was on a mission to become more inclusive due to declining
membership but I didn't see this one coming! I doubt it's a mortal blow for
the GSUSA but it's probably going to hurt memberships, especially in the older
age groups. Nothing compares to the danger & adventure offered at your typical
BSA summer camp.

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mathiasben
Just merge the two organizations and call it "scouting" \- solved

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DannyB2
Rather than merge the organizations, have the Girl Scouts start accepting
Boys.

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acty1
This.

Make no mistake here. This has nothing to do with giving "equal opportunity"
of activities to all.

But a way of suppressing healthy masculine development.

The girl scouts will never accept boys and probably cite some bogus reason due
to "safety from icky boys" as the reason.

There is nothing wrong with having groups for people based on ethnic
background (Black Lives Matter, etc), gender or religiosity.

Having girls join the Boy Scouts was a massive shit test, and they failed it.

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smileysteve
Weird, because my Scout leader led adventure scouts;
[http://adventurescoutsusa.org/](http://adventurescoutsusa.org/)

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paulddraper
Girls have been a part of the Venture Scout program (usually 16-17).

This change adds girls to Cub Scouts (8-10), Boy Scouts (usually 11-13), and
Varsity Scouts (usually 14-15).

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raymondh
I think Baden Powell would be proud.

