

London riots / UK riots: verified areas - otherwise
http://maps.google.co.uk/maps/ms?msid=207192798388318292131.0004aa01af6748773e8f7&msa=0&ll=51.558503,-0.055275&spn=0.114195,0.298691

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Fargren
I'm almost embarrassed to ask, but why is this happening? I read that this
started saturday as a protest against a policeman who shot someone, but that
doesn't seem to be what the protests is about now. The sources I checked don't
reach any kind of consensus.

~~~
reader5000
It's not native Britons rioting, largely it is young members of immigrant
communities. However, given the apparent youth of the rioters I doubt racial
politics is a significant issue here. It appears to indeed be rioting for the
sake of rioting.

~~~
polshaw
I disagree that we are seeing any significant number of _first generation_
immigrants here.

~~~
nkassis
I think by immigrant communities he was also including immigrants children
(1st 2nd generation or more). I've seen this used as to visible minorities in
many places around the world. Including country that are mostly immigrants
like Canada (where I'm from).

What has been reported is that it's youth from poor neighborhoods. Considering
the population composition of those neighborhoods, I'm going to guess that
it's probable the groups are composed of a majority of people from those
immigrant communities. It still doesn't mean it's a immigrant riot. I bet poor
non-immigrant (as in their family always been there) are also participating.

~~~
electrichead
Everyone in Canada is an immigrant of some type - unless you are native

~~~
Fargren
Everyone everywhere except maybe in Africa is an immigrant of some type. At
some point we just stop calling them immigrants, though.

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SandB0x
I'm in my flat in NW2 and I can hear police cars going down the Edgware Road.
Fucking terrifying. The police can't keep up, according to the news they're
showing up hours late to everything and they don't have any water cannons. Bad
times.

Edit: #riotcleanup tomorrow morning all over town:
<http://twitter.com/#!/search/riotcleanup>

~~~
temphn
The fundamental problem is that the police are not free to use the force
necessary to put down the riot. If rioters knew they would be shot on sight,
they would stop rioting.

As it is, police are afraid to crack down for fear that they'll be brought up
on charges of "police brutality".

Ultimately it will only end when the military is called in and can brandish
actual firearms.

EDIT: Amazed that someone downvoted this. Just proves the point that those who
would actually use force to restore order will be called out as "committing
police brutality."

~~~
Mz
_Ultimately it will only end when the military is called in and can brandish
actual firearms._

My ex was career military. I don't know about the UK, but he always said "You
really don't want to bring in the military (for stuff like this). Police are
trained to wound and bring them in alive. We are trained to shoot to kill."

~~~
hartror
This reminds me of the 1998 movie The Siege. Terrorists are bombing New York
and the politicians are discussing bringing in the army to hunt them down.
Bruce Willis is a hard ass general and this is what he has to say on the
subject:

 _"Make no mistake, Senator. We will hunt down the enemy, we will find the
enemy, and we will kill the enemy. And no card-carrying member of the ACLU is
more dead set against it than I am. Which is why I urge you - I implore you.
Do not consider this as an option."_

 _"There is historically nothing more corrosive to the morale of a population
than policing its own citizens."_

~~~
tvon
Another line that is spot on, IMO, from Battlestar Galactica:

> " _There's a reason you separate military and the police. One fights the
> enemies of the state, the other serves and protects the people. When the
> military becomes both, then the enemies of the state tend to become the
> people._ "

So, I guess the screenwriters guild gets it...

~~~
corin_
Lefties in Hollywood? There's a shocker! :D

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LoonyPandora
I'm a Londoner near some of the affected areas. The sky is not falling, London
is not degenerating into lawlessness, and from what I can see from my flat
window, police are responding quickly.

Other areas may be different, but London is a very large city - commenters
should remember that in discussions.

~~~
abcd_f
So what was the trigger that started the riots?

~~~
pbhjpbhj
It appears a known criminal (gangs, drug-dealing) with a loaded handgun was
shot by police while resisting arrest; he may or may not have shot a police
officer [first] at the time of his arrest ...

[http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/a-dead-man-a-
cruc...](http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/a-dead-man-a-crucial-
question-should-police-have-shot-mark-duggan-2334133.html)

[http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-
order/8687403...](http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-
order/8687403/London-riots-Dead-man-Mark-Duggan-was-a-known-gangster-who-
lived-by-the-gun.html)

[http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/aug/08/mark-duggan-
profile...](http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/aug/08/mark-duggan-profile-
tottenham-shooting)

~~~
polshaw
relevant to note that subsequent rioting has had little to do with this. (more
general) anger towards the police, along with opportunistic looting.

~~~
pbhjpbhj
> _(more general) anger towards the police_

So if it's not gangs trying to violent show their power then what is the
motivation in your opinion? Why sudden anger towards the police _from the
general populus_?

FWIW the buzz appears to be "send in the troops" rather than this being in any
way justified demonstration (like maybe G8 demonstrations).

------
vii
Seems to me that this would be a huge opportunity for some well co-ordinated
use of social media by the MET: many people have seen looters return to their
home with their swag and would probably be delighted to report it anonymously
- along with all photos taken by people of the actual looting. The refugees
seem to have no clear contact number let alone website to go to on their
smartphones. These people surely are motivated to inform on the rioters and
quite probably have useful knowledge.

And finally, phone location records - even without call history and text
messages - could be data-mined to give leads on the rioters - when they go
home to sleep pick them up with the loot, and you have an easier case than two
weeks later with it all squirrelled away.

~~~
tintin
<http://www.flickr.com/photos/metropolitanpolice/>

Looter archive.

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jsmcgd
For me this is simple opportunism. The authorities have clearly been
overwhelmed and people are able to do what they like with impunity. I really
think the state response needs to escalate.

~~~
viraptor
True, I was scanning reports for some serious police/military actions but
found nothing. Vehicles and buildings are on fire, rioters are aggressive and
don't care about the police, random people are injured... I really find it
hard to come up with an explanation for not using force necessary to stop it
right now. That's a third day now - each adding damage to completely unrelated
people and property.

I work in Bristol and wouldn't be surprised if riots started happening in some
areas there, unless London ones are dealt with straight away.

Edit: Just read reports of police stations being set on fire. Now I'm really
curious what exactly is the official plan for dealing with the situation.

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nsimplex
Hearing the accounts from some commuters returning home of what they witnessed
on their commute; it struck me as the first time I hear a use case where Color
would actually add some value. ;)

Also it is amusing to see the looters use BBM, which has been the corporate
-type favoured mean of communication to loot the economy for years.

On a serious note, just heard a devastating interview with a 6th generation
furniture store manager, while witnessing his family store go up in flames
(you will see the pic tomorrow in most of the frontages).

It is extraordinarily terrifying to consider the implications if the thugs
were a bit more organised, a bit more dispersed, a bit more armed; how much
more havoc they could cause.

For example consider the implication to the economy if they start targeting
more affluent locations, such the central London high streets (Oxford street,
Knightsbridge...). The insurance industry has already been wiped out this
year, it will be a deadly blow. To say nothing of the recently depressed UK
retail performance which fuels a lot of the London economy.

Or the implications to house prices and thousands of stretched mortgage
holders (London housing bubble is perhaps the only housing bubble in the world
that hasn't quite popped in the last two years, and if it does at this time it
will be cataclysmic) .

No doubt they already wrecked immeasurable damage to the economy, except they
bankrupt the already bankrupt councils, which is the core tragedy in all of
this.

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reinhardt
Can't help but compare this to the uprising in the Middle East over the last
months. Sure, the motivation is different, or even incomprehensible in the
case of London. Still, they're both begging the question "why now?" and they
exhibit characteristics of a highly contagious epidemic, where the original
reasons are almost irrelevant. People frustrated for all sorts of different
reasons find the opportunity to express violently their anger with much less
fear of repercussions than usual, mostly thanks to their sheer number and
decentralization. It's fascinating (or scary, depending how close you are).

~~~
mkr-hn
Scary absolutely, no matter your location. The factors that seem to be setting
them off exist in most technically wealthy countries. This should be troubling
for anyone who lives in an area with masses of unemployed young people.

That's probably most people on HN.

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ColinWright
What would be really useful would be to have this colour coded by day so we
could see the evolution through time.

~~~
ColinWright
This page has a colour-coded map: <http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-
london-14450248>

Not a good one, but at least it's something.

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viraptor
I found this page pretty good:
[http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/blog/2011/aug/08/london-
riots-t...](http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/blog/2011/aug/08/london-riots-third-
night-live) Updated every couple of minutes with reports from various sources.

Also according to the latest updates, there are some incidents in Birmingham
and Liverpool.

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willyt
Apparently the rioters are organising using blackberry messenger. Seems like
the police are about 2 hours behind what's happening.

~~~
teyc
BBM. Doesn't the government have access to these?

~~~
willyt
Aren't they encrypted somehow? What was the thing in Saudi Arabia (might have
been different middle east country) where the gov't banned blackberry because
they couldn't snoop?

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FrojoS
So much for all that video camera surveillance (CCTV) in London.

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ctdonath
And now for something completely insensitive: <http://wondermark.com/743/>

