
Coffee from California - hvo
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/26/business/your-coffee-is-from-where-california.html?src=me
======
CaliforniaKarl
I love this, for a number of reasons.

This is a great example of taking a coasting or downward-trending venture and
pivoting into something new, without sacrificing your existing cash flow.

It seems like the proof of concept is going well, confirming that the basic
model is sound. What comes next is to scale it up.

The farmers are also researching existing innovations in the field (i.e.
harvesters), with the goal of extending those innovations to meet the field's
unique challenges.

They are also selling initial product, which although is much more expensive
than similar products of this type, is serving to bootstrap continued and
expanded production, with the goal of reducing price by increasing supply.

(Huh, I think I went off on a tangent and started taking about Tesla.)

I don't understand why people would throw shade onto this. Not only is this
entrepreneurial spirit, it's _successful_ entrepreneurial spirit.

I wish them all the best!

EDIT: Spelling

~~~
colechristensen
Did I miss the pricing bit? All I saw was a quote saying that specialty coffee
that sells for $120/lb exists, not that these places are selling it. (if
you're looking for it you can find absurdly expensive anything, the only
coffee you'll find at that top price is probably kopi luwak where they harvest
the beans from civet poop)

~~~
rubyn00bie
... It's probably not from civets if an animal did even poop it out. Demand
has increased so high, even highly abusive farms can't keep up. So they just
outright lie about the beans or have some other animal eat the beans and shit
them out.

~~~
mb_72
"...have some other animal eat the beans and shit them out."

Sounds like something I can do at home myself then.

~~~
lostlogin
DIY scarification, bring your own cat.

------
pfooti
The important question is: is it good? I typically spend around $25 / pound on
coffee beans, which is a fairly large amount of money. But: the beans I buy
are very freshly roasted right near where I live and make excellent coffee
(which I make by the cup, pour-over style), and I only drink a cup or two a
day.

I'd see my way to paying more if the beans were somehow qualitatively better -
I had some $50 / lb coffee once that was totally worth it (I hate to use the
word mouthfeel, but this coffee really legit had a velvety rich mouthfeel that
I'd never experienced in a cup of coffee before or since, and a great aroma
and flavor to go with it), and I've tried other coffees that were high up on
the expense level that were totally _not_ worth it. Most probably aren't worth
it.

So: how does it compare? Is the ridiculous price just because you're from
california? No thanks, I'll take my ethiopian amaro gayo, tyvm.

~~~
CalChris
Alrighty then. You pay $25 for freshly ground coffee roasted right near where
you live. And you only drink a cup or two a day. Let's call that 1.5 cups a
day. A pound will provide 48 6 oz cups which will last you 48/1.5 = 1 month.

So it doesn't matter that your coffee was roasted very near where you live
since on average it's two weeks old.

Me, I live in Oakland and I like a local roaster McLaughlin in Emeryville. I
can get beans or ground from Farmer Joes, also local. But I don't overvalue
locality to the extreme. I buy McLaughlin because I like the taste and for
what it's worth, I buy ground not bean.

~~~
tomjakubowski
> So it doesn't matter that your coffee was roasted very near where you live
> since on average it's two weeks old.

"Time since roast" is hardly the only reason to prefer locally roasted beans.
Actually, it's not a good reason at all, since you can ship roasted beans
across the country a few times before they're ready to be ground and brewed.

Some folks just like to support their neighbors, and buying from local
roasters could also mean fewer shipping miles (and less carbon emissions)
attached to that that bag of beans.

~~~
mowenz
As far as this 'support your neighbors' culture goes: it's an interesting
thing to me because at a national level the politically correct response
becomes the opposite (support free trade), and it also turns into a very
inflammatory and controversial issue--likely because of nationalism. Even more
interesting, it appears liberals and conservatives switch sides when going
from local to national framework, i.e. liberals tend to support local, but not
support protectionism, while conservatives appear the opposite.

~~~
beatpanda
I buy shirts that are made in San Francisco, but the fabric is almost
certainly not made in the U.S. The global supply chain enables products that
are in some sense "made locally". Same goes for coffee. So it's totally
reasonable to be against protectionism and for buying "locally".

~~~
hvidgaard
It can be something as simple as being able to talk to the roaster. I have a
few good sources of coffee I use, but I prefer the local roaster. I do so
because we can engage and he'll recommend a new coffee because he knows it's a
match to my preferences. He is a former WBC contenter and have roaster for
other WBC contenters, which is a testament to his skills. But I do it because
I like to talk to the roaster behind the coffee.

------
pdog
_> And they see more and more American consumers willing to spend $8 or $12
for a cup of joe, which would offset their high costs of production._

A single pound of coffee makes about 50 cups. Who seriously pays this much?

~~~
jMyles
> A single pound of coffee makes about 50 cups of coffee.

What method are you using to make 50 cups from a pound?!

I get 20-25 from pourover; slightly less from aeropress.

~~~
pdog
A standard cup of coffee is six ounces.

Most people use too high a coffee-to-water ratio when making coffee.

~~~
lostlogin
How can it be called wrong if they like it? I like my espresso as thick as I
can get it out the machine. Tamp the hell out of it, over pressure the boiler
(12 bar) and go for it. I'm sure I'll damage the machine doing this but after
10 years it still seems ok. The Rancillio Silvia is well suited to this
brewing method.

~~~
pdog
Espresso, sure. Good drip or pourover coffee is generally brewed by weight
with approximately 16 units of water to 1 unit of coffee.

------
ocb
Side note: coffee is also produced in Puerto Rico. Whether or not that should
be counted as part of the US is debatable but it's interesting that there was
no mention.

Edit: NPR article from 2015[1] discussing coffee production in Puerto Rico.

[1]
[http://www.npr.org/sections/thesalt/2015/05/13/404228117/pue...](http://www.npr.org/sections/thesalt/2015/05/13/404228117/puerto-
rico-wants-to-grow-your-next-cup-of-specialty-coffee)

~~~
heartbreak
Since when is Puerto Rico not part of the US?

~~~
ocb
Obviously it is legally a territory of the US and Puerto Ricans are American
citizens but it's not one of the 50 states.

~~~
heartbreak
It contributes to GDP, so why shouldn't it contribute to coffee production
stats?

~~~
ocb
Because it's distinct culturally and politically from the 50 states and (along
with the US's other territories) therefore not always necessarily included
when one is discussing the United States. Nor do its inhabitants necessarily
identify as Americans.

I'm not sure why you're being so pedantic, anyways. I was just hinting at a
reason for why the author of this article didn't mention Puerto Rico when they
said that Hawaii was the only place in the US where serious coffee cultivation
occurs.

~~~
eloisant
So just like Washington DC?

~~~
ocb
No, obviously not just like Washington DC. I'm not even expressing my opinion
in the matter I'm just explaining why Puerto Rico isn't always included when
people say "the US"! Why did I get downvoted?

------
11thEarlOfMar
As with the wine industry, University of California at Davis has established a
coffee research program, in part funded by Peet's Coffee. I did a double take
the first time I heard of this, but it make sense and now I wonder why it
didn't happen sooner, given UC Davis' focus on specialty agriculture:

[https://coffeecenter.ucdavis.edu/](https://coffeecenter.ucdavis.edu/)

[http://www.sacbee.com/news/business/article100401787.html](http://www.sacbee.com/news/business/article100401787.html)

~~~
theparanoid
It'd be a plus if they sell specialty beans. The similar UCD Meat Lab has
excellent meat (in my opinion).

------
cm2012
Even top notch beans from CounterCulture are $18 for 12 oz. This would pretty
much br a gimmick status symbol for the wealthy

~~~
hn_throwaway_99
So what? There are lots of status symbol/gimmick products that are successful.
Also, I would expect the price to go down over time as production and use of
automated machinery increased.

------
ereyes01
I hope the prices for these coffees come down, though I get why business-wise
it makes sense for them to target the ultra-high-end market at their stage.
The idea of good coffee from somewhere as close as California is a bit
exciting to me.

\---

Sorry if the rest is slightly off-topic. After reading all the comments here
about the coffee prices mentioned in the article, and seeing what every
considers "normal" prices, I feel compelled to make the following PSA:

Save your money and roast your own coffee at home, if you are able to (* more
on that below).

I've been doing this for about 3 years now. There's a small learning curve,
but as Kenneth Davids puts it in his book [1] (paraphrasing): "The difficulty
of roasting coffee is somewhere between frying an egg and making a good
hollandaise".

I buy my favorite coffees from around the world as dried green beans for
around $5-7 per pound. Furthermore, coffee greens can last quite a while in
your pantry if kept in well ventilated burlap sacks (a couple years, or more).
This allows me to stockpile like 50 pounds of coffee to roast throughout the
year. Also, there's really nothing that quite compares to coffee a day or two
after it's been roasted. I can easily brew way better coffee than most coffee
shops here in Austin, TX (though there's a couple exceptional ones here with
more time/skill/resources than I).

To roast coffee, my low-budget setup is:

    
    
      - A heavy pan / popcorn popper (mine: https://www.amazon.com/Zippy-Pop-Stovetop-Capacity-Stainless/dp/B00PFRRA0Q)
      - A portable heat source (I use an induction range)
      - Colander / wooden spoon / shop fan
      - A well-ventilated outdoor space (a balcony does just fine), there's smoke / messy chaff
    

(* if you don't have access to outdoor space, it can be a deal breaker)

Every week, I spend about 20 minutes total roasting a new batch of coffee (end
up with ~12oz roasted). Total equipment investment for me was like $150. I can
also enjoy some really great espresso with my budget setup (manual lever
machine + Pharos hand grinder), but doing that well is a steeper learning
curve.

[1] Kenneth Davids. Home Coffee Roasting. [https://www.amazon.com/Home-Coffee-
Roasting-Revised-Updated/...](https://www.amazon.com/Home-Coffee-Roasting-
Revised-Updated/dp/0312312199)

[http://www.home-barista.com/home-roasting/](http://www.home-barista.com/home-
roasting/) is also a great resource.

~~~
pfooti
I've tried (I use the coffee popper), and it's _very satisfying_ , but also
I'm pretty bad at it. I'm pretty sure I can't get the heat to evenly
distribute right - I ended up with some beans way scorched. Still, fun.

~~~
ereyes01
These were my early experiences as well using a butane stove. The induction
range I use gives me fine control over the heat level. That, plus proper
preheating and technique at the beginning of roasting ensures you don't scorch
the beans, but roast them uniformly.

There's lots of videos on Youtube, and you get the hang of it after a little
practice.

~~~
lostlogin
That must make one hell of a mess in the kitchen. I got an outdoor power point
put in pretty much for this reason - then my mess with the heat gun and
colander can be blown all over the porch and though our shoes and bike helmets
instead.

~~~
ereyes01
Hehe my wife would disown me if I ever tried to do this in the kitchen :) I
stick to the back porch.

------
cylinder
Is there a word for "I was researching an obscure topic and then a couple
hours later a major publication writes about it?"

I was just researching boutique coffee growing farms in tropical Australia and
wondering if in the future people would pay double what they pay now for
coffee. And then this shows up on hn.

~~~
joshvm
It's called the Baader-Meinhof phenomenon or frequency illusion.

~~~
jschulenklopper
That's funny... I accidentally stumbled upon the Baader-Meinhof phenomenon
last week (reading the article at [https://www.damninteresting.com/the-baader-
meinhof-phenomeno...](https://www.damninteresting.com/the-baader-meinhof-
phenomenon/)) and now I notice it again! It's Baader-Meinhof applied to itself
:-)

------
pkulak
Read through the whole thing looking to explain how this is even possible. Is
the "coffee belt" not as absolute as I thought? Can you just grow arabica
anywhere?

~~~
lostlogin
There's a small one growing in my dining room. Auckland, New Zealand.

------
4714
_" And they see more and more American consumers willing to spend $8 or $12
for a cup of joe, which would offset their high costs of production."_

Good luck!

~~~
carbocation
I spend only slightly more than that for 3 pounds of Kirkland Signature
grounds...

~~~
DiabloD3
I'd like to say I spend around that for 8 O'Clock 100% Colombian whole beans
in 3 pound bags; which is incidentally the cheapest drinkable coffee on the
market (Maxwell House and Folgers, imnsho are nigh undrinkable; for those that
grind yourselves, you can get both as whole bean, you just sometimes have to
hit up a restaurant supply store to find it).

The only way I'd pay more than, say, $5 a pound (nice round figure, both of us
are paying slightly less) is if it was _really fucking good_. I mean, really
good. The kind of good that when other people told me how good it is, I'd tell
them that I buy the damned coffee, I know how good it is, you don't have to
tell me how good it is.

California has dominated the olive oil and wine lists, but it doesn't mean I'm
going out and buying $50-100 bottles of wine and $10-20 tiny ass bottles of
olive oil. I buy what is good, not what is perfect.

~~~
driverdan
Experiment and try a variety of beans. You can do this by going to a good
coffee shop that has multiple beans and try a different one each day. Once you
build your palate you may find you never want to go back.

Worst case you decide it's not worth the extra money and can feel smug in your
decision to stick with the cheap stuff.

~~~
DiabloD3
I did try quite a few over the years. They all tasted different, they all had
their own particular personality... but sometimes I just want consistent
caffeine that tastes like coffee, and not burnt ass.

Not tasting like burnt ass is, thankfully, a low bar to clear; it's less the
quality of the beans and whatnot, and more your brew method when it's that
bad.

------
dmritard96
would this meet Rainforest Alliance standards? With coffee being the worlds
second largest commodity, I am particularly bothered by both my addiction and
the difficultly in finding Rainforest Alliance certified options. It seems
like fair trade is easy to find in Trader Joes for instance, but after 20
minutes of looking/reading, I simply couldn't find beans that weren't possibly
deforesting rainforests are that had their CO2 footprints examined/offset.
Hoping this could be a great win for labor, rain forests (reusing existing
agricultural land), etc.

One other point - their trees have been getting older and there is more forign
competition is growing BUT, demand has outpaced supply with prices being high,
more mainstream consumption in North America and now increasingly in Asia
Pacific. I read a lot about the Avacado industry (not really sure why) but
from what I have seen from the Avacado's growers groups, their profits have
been skyrocketing with demand changes over the last 20 years.

~~~
eltondegeneres
Fair Trade standards are stricter than Rainforest Alliance. You can read the
guidelines here, which includes protections against deforestation:

[https://fairtradeusa.org/sites/default/files/wysiwyg/fileman...](https://fairtradeusa.org/sites/default/files/wysiwyg/filemanager/APS_Updates_Feb_2017/FTUSA_STD_APS_EN_1.0.0.pdf)

Fair trade certified shade grown coffee is probably your best bet for farmer
and earth friendly coffee.

~~~
more_bees_plz
Fair Trade standards are actually considered to be equal to Rainforest
Alliance standards in terms of environmental and social sustainability.
Rainforest Alliance farms prohibit deforestation, have specific guidelines for
protecting wildlife and water quality, and demand that workers are paid
minimum wage/have the right to organize + more. Read the standard here:

[http://sanstandard2017.ag/](http://sanstandard2017.ag/)

And if you need to find Rainforest Alliance certified coffee, you can find it
for sure at all Whole Foods, some of their Allegro brands are certified. Or
you can use this tool:

[http://www.rainforest-alliance.org/find-certified](http://www.rainforest-
alliance.org/find-certified)

------
firloop
You can buy coffee from one of the farms here for $96 a pound (~$86/lb if you
buy 12 oz).

[https://goodlandorganics.com/store/roasted-
coffee](https://goodlandorganics.com/store/roasted-coffee)

Not sure if I could stomach paying $6.50/cup for my daily pourover that I make
at home, but hey, this is out there.

------
theparanoid
"There are roughly 800 coffee farms in the Hawaiian Islands producing as much
as nine million pounds of unroasted beans a year; California produces only
hundreds of pounds."

California coffee production would have to increase by _five_ orders of
magnitude to compare with Hawaii.

~~~
hammock
Sounds like a great opportunity for startup capital. Is 10x growth every year
for 4 years that unreasonable to you?

~~~
theparanoid
For one coffee plants take half a decade to produce.

~~~
ars
> which takes half a decade to produce.

So what you are saying is that in about 10 years California could match Hawaii
output?

That doesn't seem very long to me, not for this business.

~~~
Turing_Machine
And then 10 years after that, California coffee would be overplanted and the
price would crash. :-)

The current almond glut is a cautionary tale.

Lead times measured in years (sometimes decades) is one of the many problems
inherent in being a farmer.

------
pash
I don't suppose California's farmers are stupid, so I presume it's someone
else's stupidity that has made it attractive to grow coffee, the latest in a
long line of water-intensive crops, in dry southern California.

When are Californians going to realize that it's this sort of thing, not a
decent shower, that is the cause of the ill effects of a decade of drought?
And why do Californians keep subsidizing farmers' water-usage when that is
plainly the root of the problem?

~~~
DanBC
[http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/10/13/food-water-
footprin...](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/10/13/food-water-
footprint_n_5952862.html)

> Coffee requires almost 10 times as much water [than tea], using 1,056
> gallons of water per gallon of brewed coffee.

That's a lot.

~~~
philippoi
There's a good deal of variation. Without digging into how that figure was
produced, it could be worthwhile to mention that the production process Jay
Ruskey says he's interested in cuts a lot of water out of the process. Once
coffee cherries are picked, getting down to the seed inside (aka "coffee
bean") can happen one of roughly three ways: "natural process", letting the
coffee fruit dry out like a raisin on the seed; soaking/fermentation, letting
the coffee soak in water for 24-48 hours once (or often twice in Kenya);
mechanical demucilagation, separating the seeds from the rest with a machine.
The demucilager is common in Costa Rica. I can dig up some more material
later, but the government in Costa Rica is strict about water waste,
essentially requiring farmers use demucilagers to process their coffee. I
don't know how much this would affect the water involved in coffee production,
but I would guess it would drop the amount necessary for production in cases
like Ruskey's.

------
raverbashing
Get drip coffee and add milk. There's your coffee

Some people don't know what they're doing

~~~
falsedan
The baristas at work tell me off for adding milk to their batch brew. Mind,
they have extremely good quantity control & carefully select their beans, so
it tastes pretty good just by itself.

~~~
raverbashing
Then I agree with them, but we were talking about a Starbucks latte with 11
shots

~~~
falsedan
Oh, I missed the context. I agree 100%

------
skookumchuck
Coffee, strawberries, and chocolate are the foods of the gods.

~~~
thaumasiotes
You're thinking of ambrosia.

------
blazespin
This is relevant, why? "There are roughly 800 coffee farms in the Hawaiian
Islands producing as much as nine million pounds of unroasted beans a year;
California produces only hundreds of pounds. Globally, 12 billion pounds of
coffee are consumed each year

~~~
chillingeffect
The idea is that we catch trends while they are still nascent, before every
random person in the mainstream does.

~~~
blazespin
Pretty nascent. .00000035 of the market. I could write a blog post and capture
more market share than that.

