
The Mac Pro Lives - neilprosser
http://daringfireball.net/2017/04/the_mac_pro_lives
======
csomar
Am I the only one that sees OS X as the biggest reason to switch to Mac? I
mean Windows is good, but nowhere good as OS X. And please, don't tell me
Ubuntu or other linux flavors. They look good (and are good if you are
programming on them) but the UX is still lacking a lot. (Never mind the
confusion of the different flavors, packaging systems, and configurations).
Also god forbid you have a problem (especially a hardware problem) and then
try to debug it. Good luck searching online for a resolution.

I never had success with Linux. My Macbook pro has had its shares of problems
(Wifi issues that later resolved with a system update) but it's nowhere my
experience trying to install Linux and battling the drivers issue.

Anyone figuring out the Linux/Laptop problem is re-inventing the Macbook
Pro/OS X.

Here are things that I'd pay $1,000 on top of the current Macbook Pro model:

\- Thiner/Lighter

\- Longer Battery Life (5+ hours)

\- 32/64GB RAM

For OS X:

\- Less cluttering (ie: remove all Apps and let the user decide what to
install, like Siri and crap).

\- Native Package Manager

That's about it. I'd be buying the new Macbook Pro in a month. But if Apple
releases something like the above, I'm more than happy to drop 5-8k usd into
it.

~~~
Eun
Window management in OSX is horrible.

Finder is even more horrible. It reminds me of the Windows 95 Explorer. A
network drive hangs? Good luck with Finder..., the whole system halts.

~~~
issa
My number one complaint about OSX is also window management. I've never found
anything comparable to the way Windows 7 let you use the left/right arrows to
line up windows on half the screen. That is the only thing I miss about
Windows, but it's a pretty big one. Also, when dis/connecting monitors on OSX,
windows often get lost.

ps- if anyone has any suggestions or recommendations, I'd love to hear them!

~~~
notduncansmith
I use Spectacle for this, simplest thing I've found so far:
[https://www.spectacleapp.com](https://www.spectacleapp.com)

~~~
coryfklein
I second the Spectacle recommendation, but it is frustrating that you have to
download an APP to do something that should be built into the window manager.

~~~
setr
for top-level activities that won't really be composed with anything else, it
seems fine to leave it to app developers;

as long as someone does the job correctly

~~~
srssays
Yeah, there have been many many iterations of these apps, by different
developers. SizeUp + Cinch, Divvy, Spectacles.

While I think that Apple should have just copied Microsoft's approach (i.e.
what Cinch does) the wealth of options for window management means that
everybody can find something that they like.

------
VelNZ
Wow, what a torrent of negativity on this thread, I didn't see a single
positive comment reading through the top level.

This is excellent news, I'm chugging along on a 2010 Mac Pro and was very
disappointed when the Apple Displays were cancelled last year. They are a
staple of the lineup and always look gorgeous compared to what's on the
market. I will definitely be buying the new Mac Pro and 2 displays to go with
it. There is absolutely no way I will ever use Windows and having to downscale
to an iMac or, worse, a MacBook Pro, when my Mac Pro is finally too old was
filling me with dread. By the sounds of things, they are working on making it
modular and expandable, also very good news as I like to keep my workhorse
computer for a long time.

Overall very excited to see what Apple announce next year!

~~~
draw_down
I'm sorry but you should be at the very least impatient with them, as a
customer. This thing doesn't even come out until 2018 and you're using the
2010.

Look, I use Apple products all day, damn near every computing device I have is
made by them. It's just astounding how they've let this languish. Very bad.

~~~
ralfd
This. We have still 8 months left. How hard can it be to design a tower? I
guess Apple is having some interesting trick in their sleeve, but come on, how
long could it take? Just throw a few more engineers on it!

~~~
devNoise
The trash can was a neat design. The problem was is that Apple came up a
design that was wrong for the market that wants a Mac Pro. This is a market
that wants to upgrade and expand their computers. They want to add some of the
largest capacity hard drives they can find. They'll put in an expansion card
or two. The GPU that would be fine for me until I bought a new computer,
they'll want to replace it next year.

I don't think the tower will be that hard to design. I think the issue will be
in making a new motherboard. Or do you think, they'll just use one of Intel's
designs?

------
jlgaddis
For me -- and, I suspect, many others -- this is too little too late.

Just a few months ago, I spent somewhere around $4500 (all-in) putting
together a new workstation. It runs Linux instead of OS X and this has led to
me using my (4-year-old) ThinkPad more than my (18-month-old) MacBook Pro
(when I'm "on the go"). I actually plan on selling the MBP; I just haven't
gotten around to it yet.

I'm sure this is great news -- and long-awaited -- to many people... but some
of us got tired of waiting.

~~~
jacquesm
You can run linux on the MBP. It's a pretty good combination.

~~~
j_s
Not sure on the specifics of an 18-month-old MBP vs. this list, but nothing is
guaranteed.

[https://github.com/Dunedan/mbp-2016-linux](https://github.com/Dunedan/mbp-2016-linux)

 _State of Linux on the MacBook Pro 2016_

Not Working:

• Audio input & output

• Bluetooth

• Keyboard backlight

• Suspend & Hibernation

• Touch ID

• Wi-Fi

~~~
jacquesm
Kernel 4.9 fixes a bunch of those (the Wi-Fi for instance).

I've had a similar experience with the Air but it works well with the newer
kernels (including the SSD, which was the main problem for me).

------
ynniv
_a pro machine that demanded placement on your desk, not under your desk_

... and that's how Apple lost the professionals. The desk is a clean space for
a huge monitor / keyboard / mouse, and MY work. It's good to make a
workstation that looks nice, but it's ten times as good to make one that's
flexible and powerful. The only people who want that workstation on the
desktop are the designers at Apple, and stroking your own ego isn't on the
path to making a great product.

Every great designer knows that form _follows_ function.

~~~
simonbarker87
I wouldn't take that too literally, firstly those are Gruber's words and
secondly, there isn't anything stopping you putting the Mac Pro on the floor
so long as the cables reach.

~~~
intoverflow2
Well not sure the air inlets taking the dust and fluff in off the floor is a
great idea for it.

~~~
evilduck
That's pretty much true for any computer, no?

~~~
strictnein
Yes, but a lot of cases these days have easily removable and cleanable filters
so that most of that dust doesn't make it inside the case.

------
_ph_
Best Apple-related news I have heard in a long time. Of course its outrageous,
that they didn't listen to their customers earlier and reacted quicker, but it
is great that they finally do, and also, that they are not shy admitting via
this interview, that they changed their course.

Based on how long a product takes to bring to market in a large company, it
might have well been the public reaction to the MB Pro release last autumn
which woke them up. Just todays spec-bump of the Can takes like 6 months of
preparation and planning. And it would fit to the true renewal being about 1
year in the future from today.

It might be to late for some, but I am so glad this is happening. Apple can
make great hardware, if they are trying, and this sounds that they are trying
again, so I am very curious what they can create.

~~~
dbbk
Why would today's spec bump require 6 months of planning? They didn't
introduce new components, just moved the price points down a level.

~~~
_ph_
When I wrote my comment I was under the impression that there were slightly
improved graphics chips involved which would have meant at least organizing
the supply chain and producing enough stock in advance, but in the meantime I
read that it is just a price bump - which would cut down the necessary time to
just a few weeks for writing the new price lists :).

------
buserror
Gave up on the mac pro years ago. I replaced my unkillable 2008 Mac pro with a
lovely Fractal Design R5 case, a stonking 5930k overclocked at 4.5Gz on a
'posh' ASUS Mobo with 64GB of DDR.

It's a 'hackintosh', sure enough, but it's fantastic. First time in 30 years I
don't own a mac, that's telling. Their fault, too.

~~~
strombourg
Had you built a hackintosh before? Any major negative experiences with
compatibility / updates?

~~~
ZFH
Been running hackintoshes since 2007 or so. Mostly smooth sailing. Off the top
of my head:

\- It's all about making it easy for yourself. In short, motherboard and GPU
choice change the experience from 'almost effortless' to 'never gonna work'.
Get a $20 USB external soundcard to get rid of any audio configuration
quagmires. Get the most compatible, widely used motherboard and Nvidia GPU, so
you can get support on Tonymac should you need it. Stick to wired Ethernet to
avoid meddling with bluetooth and wi-fi if you can. Everything else (PSU, CPU,
RAM, hard drives and case) isn't an issue.

\- The tradeoff is time invested into initially understanding how it all fits
vs. money saved and increased knowledge of how MacOS ticks (a good thing
regardless, if you're a power user). How much time depends on how much of a PC
tinkerer you are already. If you already built PCs and tried getting Linux
distros going it's gonna be second nature.

\- You'll still need to check out Tonymac when a point update comes out for
tips and warnings. The easiest solution is to install the fully up to date
next-to-last MacOS version (install El Capitan 10.11.6 now that we are in the
Sierra cycle, for example) and keep it going until you're forced to upgrade.
Staying a generation behind, both in hardware and software, is the safest
strategy. Hackintosh and being on the bleeding edge don't really mix.

~~~
JoelTheSuperior
In fairness I've been running Sierra just fine on my Hackintosh, though I did
wait until 10.12.1. If I recall correctly the first version had issues with
the Nvidia Web Drivers (some strange bugs) but they've long since been
resolved.

I would agree with the overall sentiment though and add that even on a
legitimate Mac it's usually a good idea to hold back a bit on updating. I work
with audio a lot and it's common for audio units (and Pro Tools if you use
that) to break initially.

~~~
ZFH
Audio user here too. I just updated to 10.12.4 yesterday on a test install and
it went without a hitch, but only because I checked Tonymac and updated Clover
beforehand, which I wouldn't have done otherwise. And I'm on a old GTX 650 Ti
that doesn't need the Web Drivers. Meanwhile my main 10.9.5 work install keeps
gloriously chugging along.

------
jaimebuelta
This is an incredibly weird thing... Inviting a bunch of bloggers into a room
and saying that they're sorry, but they have great stuff down the line?

It feels incredibly un-Apple.

~~~
jads
They likely didn't have a choice, especially as they released a speed bump
today. The Mac Pro had become a bit of a joke but the iMac and MBP range was
powerful enough (just enough) that the pro community would grumble more than
complain.

After the critical reception of the new MacBook Pro range amongst the Apple
community, especially pro users, everyone was questioning Apple's commitment
to pro users, and the Mac as a whole.

I'm glad to see Apple doing this, but I can't help thinking this was totally
reactive and pre-emptive damage control. If Apple had just released the Mac
Pro speed bump, there would be even more of an outcry that Apple has given up
on anything more than incremental changes.

The pessimist in me thinks that Apple simply had no idea that there was this
sort of demand for pro Macs. Phil and Craig mentioned the iMac numerous times,
as though to say "hey pros, there is a great Mac you can use", so they can
still claim that they do make great, high-performance pro devices.

My guess is "next year" means "Holidays 2018", and my guess is that Apple has
only recently started work on this. Apple hasn't been about modular design or
expandability for a long time. With the rise in adoption of VR, there has been
even more discussion about upgrading graphics cards (remember Oculus comments
about the Mac?), and the age of the CPUs is another criticism. I just can't
imagine Apple starting work on this some time ago.

~~~
simonh
Most likely the current gen speed bump and next gen redesign were both green-
lit at the same time, so however long ago they started on the current update.

~~~
JoelTheSuperior
Well all the current update is is them dropping the price of configurations
they already owned and killing off the previous base model. It's very much a
matter of flicking a switch.

------
nek4life
Great. Now they need to reintroduce a MBP with top of the line specs and
without the stupid touchbar.

Snark aside, I have a mid 2010 mac pro at home that is still going strong (due
to upgrades, SSD, more RAM.) However, I would like to get a new GPU for the
machine, but I'm not about to spend $500 on a better, but ancient GPU that's
compatible with a 7 year old machine. I've been wondering what my upgrade path
would be. No way in hell I'm buying a trashcan mac without any upgradability.
And I'm certainly not going to buy a MBP with the touchbar (I need a real
escape key) and under powered specs.

I'm really hoping this is true, otherwise in the next year or two I'm going to
be seriously considering building a PC like I used to and deal with Windows
10. The rest of my family uses apple and it makes support for their devices
easier being on the same platform, but I need better performance for photo
editing and audio production.

~~~
Razengan
Speak for yourself. The Touch Bar is actually very nice and definitely speeds
up some tasks once you get used to it and customize. I certainly don't want to
go back to a keyboard without a Touch Bar now.

As for a "top of the line" MBP, the 2016 15" is already the fastest MBP ever
overall, even if you count the few benchmarks which put it slightly behind
2015 models in one or two metrics.

~~~
Razengan
[http://www.computerworld.com/article/3136714/data-
storage/ap...](http://www.computerworld.com/article/3136714/data-
storage/apples-new-macbook-pro-may-be-the-worlds-fastest-stock-laptop.html)

The damning benchmarks seem to be related to AMD vs. Nvidia. I don't know much
about that but I'd put it down to optimization issues in a few apps. The 2016
15" definitely plays all games better than any MacBook before it.

------
JustSomeNobody
> What struck me about this is that Apple was framing a discussion in which
> the big news — the whole point, really — was their pre-announcing a
> “completely rethought” next-generation Mac Pro by emphasizing that most of
> their pro users use MacBooks and most of the rest use iMacs — and that they
> have big plans in store for the pro segment of both of those product lines.
> It’s exactly what I would have expected Apple to say if they were breaking
> the news that the Mac Pro was going away: We’re dropping the Mac Pro because
> its time has come and gone — all but a small percentage of our pro users
> have their needs met by MacBook Pros and high-end iMacs.

It is also exactly what you would think Apple would say if they know this is
going to be an extremely expensive device. Much more so than the current Mac
Pro.

~~~
blacksmith_tb
The current Pro can be configured to cost a cool $7,200. I am sure the
'completely rethought' model won't be cheap, but I wouldn't expect it to cost
much more than the current line. Which is still too much for most of us to buy
for home use (I am running a 2010 Pro with a hex-core Xeon, raided SSDs and an
nVidia 750 Ti which cost me about $1K to put together, and it benchmarks
evenly with the current Pro), but the market for the Pro has tended to be
institutions, or audio / video / photo professionals who could write off the
purchase or charge it to their clients.

------
strictnein
> "with a modular design"

Why? Just bring back the cheese grater case and call it a day. No pro needs or
wants these fancy designs.

~~~
simonh
Wasn't the Cheese Grater a modular design?

~~~
strictnein
It was sort of, but you also had pretty direct access to 3 PCI Express slots,
4 pretty standard drive bays (with pretty enclosures), and 4 or 8 memory slots
(depending on 1 or 2 CPUs).

I'm just guessing by modular design they're talking about something much more
complex and unique.

------
e12e
I admit I only skimmed this (my only wish for Apple is for them to release a
set of build tools for Linux that allows building ios apps, and (more
importantly, really) support the installation and purchase of OS X for running
on non-apple hardware, and in VMs -- I don't think either of those will
happen) -- however -- I caught this:

> We think it’s really important to create something great for our pro
> customers who want a Mac Pro modular system, and that’ll take longer than
> this year to do.

That's silly. They could take their previous generation Mac Pro chassis, stuff
it with a dual Xeon board, 128gigs of RAM, a pair of SSDs and a pair of Nvidia
1080s - and after some nominal quality testing/driver tweaking sell it at
their regular ridiculous mark-up.

Those old cases are so convenient, I've considered buying a used one just for
a regular pc workstation build. Easy to get to the internals, nice airflow.
Roomy. Looks perfectly fine:

[http://www.ebay.com/itm/APPLE-MAC-
PRO-2008-3-1-3-2GHZ-8-CORE...](http://www.ebay.com/itm/APPLE-MAC-
PRO-2008-3-1-3-2GHZ-8-CORE-32GB-RAM-2TB-HDD-
ATI-5770-OSX-/302135371829?hash=item4658abe835:g:6g4AAOSwTM5Y05xa)

------
teekert
I though it was gonna take Adobe saying: "We are working on CS for the latest
Ubuntu LTS" before this was going to happen.

~~~
DoofusOfDeath
I'd love to see a market analysis regarding how many people stick with OS X
_only_ because they (a) need Adobe CS and (b) can't/won't use Windows.

~~~
chefandy
I do.

------
rcarmo
I honestly don't care much about the Pro (since even with the speed bump it's
still not that much better value for money) or the iMac (which is nonsensical
for me given the form factor and my need for multiple displays) but am glad to
hear about the mini still being alive, especially because my old Mini has just
hit seven years.

Like many others, I put together a decent "tiny" Hackintosh
([https://taoofmac.com/space/blog/2016/12/17/1840](https://taoofmac.com/space/blog/2016/12/17/1840)),
but ended up converting it to a Linux workstation because it turned out it was
more useful to me as a VM host.

So I'm still using my ancient mini as an instant-on desktop (can't quite beat
Apple's BT keyboards, really), and am looking forward to upgrading it - I just
hope Apple realizes that it serves "semi-pro" uses well enough to gift it with
at least as much CPU and RAM as the current MacBook Pro range...

------
IBM
>Mac sales were up in 2016, once again outpacing the PC industry as a whole,
and the new MacBook Pros are a hit, with sales up “about 20 percent” year over
year.

Brutal to all the MBP hot takes from this fall.

Here's a good running list of them.

[https://mjtsai.com/blog/2016/10/27/new-macbook-pros-and-
the-...](https://mjtsai.com/blog/2016/10/27/new-macbook-pros-and-the-state-of-
the-mac/)

~~~
intoverflow2
>Brutal to all the MBP hot takes from this fall.

Not really, what are people supposed to do? Move their entire ecosystem to
Windows?

Just because it sells doesn't mean it's a great product. Balmer's reign is
testament to that so I'm getting pretty tired of (non-shareholder) people
pointing at spreadsheet numbers to justify Tim Cook doing a good job.

~~~
valuearb
If the new MBPs weren't well received, people would hold off purchases, and
yes, some would move to Windows. Sales are proof they nailed it.

~~~
gurkendoktor
That's true for people who want 32 GB of RAM, a Nvidia GPU, a touchscreen etc.
- I'm sure they haven't bought the MBP 2016.

But what about people who are fine with the specs and just don't like the
details? You really need to have bought an MBP to know whether you like the
Touch Bar and the flat/loud keyboard, or how well the battery works for you
(given that the benchmarks are all over the place).

I'd love to see the percentage of returned machines instead.

------
mcculley
Every time the topic comes up of Apple ceding the high performance market, I
wonder: What are developers at Apple using? Some in-house hackintosh?

~~~
whatusername
Maybe I'm not doing enough development.... As a development machine - what is
a top spec iMac/MBP missing that you would need a hackintosh?

~~~
michaelbuckbee
The biggest thing is greater than 16GB of RAM.

~~~
blktiger
If they are all developing with Xcode I bet they also have a server farm for
distributed builds. That said, why would OSX devs need more that 16GB of RAM?
It's not like they are going to be running virtual machines/docker images.
Xcode isn't _that_ much of a memory hog.

~~~
mcculley
What are they building Xcode server farms out of?

~~~
PascLeRasc
Apple Stores /s

------
highpass
I would like to point out that their research seems lacking.

The industry is not "moving to one big GPU".

The industry has already moved to 4, 6, or 8 "big" GPUs per station/node.

~~~
intoverflow2
I found that comment bizarre, someone correct me if I'm wrong but as far as
I've seen in my own experience and other people in my field (3D CG) multi-GPUs
seem to scale ridiculously well.

Seemed more of a case that no one wants to actually code for OpenCL on AMD...

~~~
glenneroo
Depends on the tools. RedShift for instance told us right after 10xx Nvidia
cards came out that if we have lots of vertices (> 1 or 10 million - I don't
remember exactly), you benefit from more RAM so get a Titan X. If you want to
render anything with less, get more GPUs since you can't share RAM anyways,
but the number of cores will help you.

------
ksec
Pleasantly Surprise that Mac Pro is still alive and getting a remake. Not only
are they not killing it, they are also Pre-announcing it. Both action seems
very Un-Apple.

My guess is that, Mac Pro, no iMac update, and Macbook Pro with touchbar had
many pro users worried and start freaking out. And Apple think they needed to
do something fast because they dont have anything to shown in the short term.
I also wonder why touchbar wasn't questioned in the Interview if they think it
was a mistake. TouchID is great, Touch bar is not.

In 5 years time, by 2022 we are very likely to get 7nm from Intel and 5nm from
TSMC. There is no reason why, within the same thermal budget, we cant fit a 16
Core CPU, a GPU that is equal or faster then today's Top GPU, 128GB RAM, and
PCI-E 4.0 SSD. I.e This iMac will be faster then many of the Mac Pro sold
today, and likely to cover majority of the Pro uses.

That is why I am surprised at Apple continue to support the Mac Pro. It is
highly likely the numbers of Mac Pro sales will continue to shrink.

I hope Apple look at Rack usage as one of the factor in its design. I see Mac
Pro in Severs Rack as one of the potential to greatly increase its sales.

------
tomelders
> For examples of the type of software that the current Mac Pro isn’t well-
> suited for, Federighi mentioned VR: “Those can be in VR, those can be in
> certain kinds of high end cinema production tasks where most of the software
> out there that’s been written to target those doesn’t know how to balance
> itself well across multiple GPUs, but can scale across a single large GPU.”

Interesting that VR get's a mention there. Federighi chooses his words
carefully, and they're aware of the rumours surrounding Apple and VR.

~~~
tmsldd
Well noticed. Seems that Apple finally realized that their lines are not in
phase with VR requirements.. both for content production and use. I'm not sure
whether because they are working on a iVR .. if so MacBook Pro also need a
good care as well.. more memory, gpu and a modular update strategy would be
well come.

------
samdoshi
This feels very reactionary to me.

That fact that the new Mac Pros will not be out till next year makes it sound
like they've only started working on it quite recently, perhaps in response to
the furore over their treatment of their professional users.

~~~
DoofusOfDeath
That was my initial reaction as well. But after parsing their quotes a little
more carefully, I don't see anything implying that they just started.

------
threatofrain
While people purchasing in bulk for enterprise contexts may have a different
situation, on the individual level, I am financially bothered by the idea of a
pro machine I cannot maintain, or am locked out of.

I hope the situation is not that the market of pro individuals have moved to
the point of just throwing the whole machine away on an upgrade.

The Gruber article hints that Apple might have human manual maintainability /
upgradability on a priority list, but I wonder what that means.

------
saturdaysaint
Given Apple's uncertain "Pro" roadmap, I've been on a beefy Windows
workstation for a few years for some digital hobbies, but it occurs to me that
I'll happily take a look at jumping back. The transition to Windows got me in
the habit of relying most heavily on crossplatform software, so it would be a
smooth transition back.

Unfortunately, I'm anticipating something with an outrageous design premium
and so hyperspecced at every turn that it won't make much sense for me. It's a
shame - shouldn't the company able to make a $300 iPad be able to make a dream
$2500 workhorse for the amateur musician/videographer? I've been reading these
kind of wishful rants since the 90's, so I know not to expect much.

------
alexkadis
And Siracusa with the win. "That Mac is our last hope… No. There is another."
[https://twitter.com/siracusa/status/849229927358636033](https://twitter.com/siracusa/status/849229927358636033)
[https://twitter.com/siracusa/status/849230093088165888](https://twitter.com/siracusa/status/849230093088165888)

~~~
ComputerGuru
I don't get it?

~~~
alexkadis
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oasqjPHpxyI](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oasqjPHpxyI)

Obi-Wan: "That boy is our last hope."

Yoda: "No...there is another..."

~~~
jamesrcole
I know the reference, but I don't understand what is meant by referring to it
as "the last hope" and what/why something else is an alternative to that.

That a Linux based system is an alternative for a powerful Unixy system?

~~~
zeveb
> That a Linux based system is an alternative for a powerful Unixy system?

As I noted elsethread, it really is. I used to use Macs exclusively, and I'll
never willing leave Linux now: it really is that much better. The problem is
that Windows & macOS are too constrained by their installed base: they don't
have the freedom to be really revolutionary in their UIs, nor can they afford
to support deep customisation (GNOME & KDE have similar problems — but one
needn't use either GNOME or KDE to use Linux). Linux, meanwhile, offers a user
true freedom: I can use a tiling WM, I can write code and bind keys to do
anything I want. A Linux box running StumpWM and emacs is the closest thing
the modern world offers to a Lisp machine, and it's awesome.

------
drawkbox
The Mac Pro was a problem when it went away from the cheese grater tower. It
was a good clean accessible tower that looked good.

I do always need a macOS machine around to build iOS apps but the current Mac
Pro is too expensive and limited for what it is, non customizable or
upgradable really. I also want a pro machine that isn't an iMac, which really
is what you have to settle for now, because I want a separate screen that I
don't have to toss or I can donate when the iMac dies in 3-4 years.

A major problem is that Apple doesn't even make their cinema displays anymore,
they were once the best screens and beautiful. LG is their monitor seller now.
Why?

Apple is just missing the Pro users that like to customize their machine and
modernize it. I have since moved back to custom PCs for my main power/pro
machines and just do iOS builds on the Mac Pro 2012 now. The worst part is the
next couple versions of macOS might not even run on that Pro because they are
force EOL the hardware in the OS, not because of the lack of power as their
hasn't been much progression there at all, just to EOL hardware when there
isn't even a good new one to move to. I also feel a little disappointed in the
new Macbook Pros. Some people I know are back on PC and just bought Mac Minis
to compile their iOS apps.

macOS really is a great unix backed OS out there and the best looking for dev.
Macs became so useful in 2006ish when they went intel and started creating the
software around that and new web tech (canvas,webkit/webgl/khronos funding)
that revolutionized. Unity on Mac pulled me into the Apple world again, for a
time Unity was Mac only. Great things were happening after 2006 including the
iPhone pushing dev to more macs. Apple has squandered that. They just seem apt
to kill all that now and go totally proprietary and machines that are one
block. That isn't going to attract Pro users or developers like it did a
decade ago. They are losing their developers and pro
creative/video/interactive users, that should be scary to them. Pro users are
saying to Apple, "we'll believe it when we see it, for now we'll be over
here".

------
hedora
I think it is funny they are scrapping the entire line because of GPU
thermals.

A big chunk of their pro market just wants a pile of ram and cpu cores. They
could offer that now with an intel integrated gpu for $1-$3K. Also, it wouldnt
surprise me if intel gpus can already drive 5K, so you'd be able to actually
plug it into the nice LG mac monitor (unlike the thing they are shipping). If
not, they could sell a high end, but single gpu config, which is still a waste
of a gpu, but at least it could drive current apple-approved monitors.

Also, delaying the entire line 12+ months for a heatsink is madness. Surely
they could slap together a water cooler or something for a single high end gpu
config.

~~~
Cacti
They admit that there are thermal limitations, but it's not really in the
context of GPUs so much as the entire package. What they do admit specifically
about GPUs is that their entire prediction for the market was wrong, that
multi GPU systems are not as important as the highest end single card on the
market, and these cards simply can't fit in their current design dimensions.

In other words, GRAM sizes, and max single card speed are the driving factors
in GPU adoption. Which makes sense, because you only get the large increases
in GPU speed if you can fit everything in memory, and throughput is not high
enough yet to ignore the cost of copying data to GRAM.

This is a tacit admission that Pro users are increasingly _not_ concerned with
RAM capacity or CPU speed, but with GPU power.

The other mistake made was their assumption that Thunderbolt would allow
nearly unlimited peripheral expansion, which turned out to be a complete bust.

Neither of things is solvable without completely changing the dimensions/specs
of the Pro.

------
ianwalter
I wish there was more info on the Pro Display. I thought Apple was "out of the
display game". I wonder if the UltraFine issues played a part in this.

~~~
DoofusOfDeath
Serious question: What room is there for improvement and innovation in
displays for MacPro's target users, aside from price-reduction?

I can see how photographers want faithful color reproduction with a wide
gamut, good image consistency across the whole display, good resolution, and a
decent size (maybe 32" tops?)

But AFAIK, monitors with those qualities are already available. The only thing
I can think of that would make them better suited for professional work is to
bring their prices down. (Because even pros have a budget.)

~~~
oneeyedpigeon
I wish they'd revisit the first ever flat-screen iMac, the one that pivoted
every which way and could easily be positioned at any height. I think now
they've realised the design of the actual computer is pretty low down on pro-
desktop purchasers' priorities, they'll go all-in on the display instead.
Imagine the very best display Apple could make — maybe like the above with an
almost bezel-free front, 5K, etc. — with an old-school Mac Pro tower full of
expansion possibilities. It would be a dream pro machine.

~~~
bshimmin
_I wish they 'd revisit the first ever flat-screen iMac, the one that pivoted
every which way and could easily be positioned at any height._

That's this one, for anyone wondering:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IMac_G4](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IMac_G4)

Apparently they had quite considerable problems with the arm becoming a bit
loose!

------
untangle
838 points later and this post is only the 2nd reply directly to the OP? And
much of the commentary to date is about command line tools on Windows? Wow.
Blasphemy.

OK, I'll bite. I'll talk about the Mac Pro news.

First, I'll state the obvious and applaud Apple for conducting a "Mac State of
the Union" with a Congress of the Apple press. Bravo.

Looking at the details, I think we should be careful when assessing the use of
iMacs, laptops, and Mini's by the pro user base. Specifically, were these
folks running to the pro merits of these other devices or running away from
the lack of a viable Mac Pro option? I think the latter.

I'm a Mac Pro user (2009 5.1) and devotee. I also own a top-line 5K iMac. I'd
much rather do heavy computing on the Pro. For one thing, even something as
simple as playing a 1080p video on the iMac wreaks thermal hell and sends the
fans into overdrive. My oldish (and well-liked) Macbook Pro did similar
things.

But what I truly like about the Pro is its easy expandability. In fact, I wish
that it had more slots! Mine are always full (and I still lack a fast flash
disk card).

So I am very, very psyched about the announcements. I am hopeful that the 2018
offerings are not outrageously priced.

Finally, as an aside, those who just can't wait until 2018 have an option.
Very decent Mac Pro towers can be had used in the $1K-$2K price bracket. Maybe
less if you mine Craigslist. If I were in the market for a non-laptop Mac,
that's what I'd do.

Note that I am not trying to criticize non-Pro Macs. I just wanted to contrast
them with the Pro, hopefully highlighting the latter's merits.

------
agravier
Assuming you can run another OS than OS X (meaning that you have some Linux,
Windows or BSD mileage and are confident about administrating such a machine),
then look around you on the refurb market, get your hands dirty and you can
build a _great_ workstation at prices that are much less than Apple's. I have
done so and I do not regret it at all.

~~~
eddieroger
For those who can run another OS besides macOS, then Apple hardware has rarely
been the best option, and never the cheapest. The point for many, like me, is
the combination of both the hardware and software.

------
hypertexthero
Excellent news!

I'm looking forward to being able to land on moons in Elite Dangerous Horizons
in VR on a Mac at some point.

In the meantime I got a Zotac EN1060, a machine the size of a Mac Mini that
runs any game I throw at it at 60 frames per second, which makes booting into
Windows tolerable.

Graphic design and coding work remains in the realm of a 2014 Macbook Pro.

------
guinness74
If Apple seems intent on making things right with its high-end desktop
consumers, I wonder what that means for those of us pining for the return of
the esc key on the MacBook Pro.

~~~
brandur
Fans of the Mac Pro have been waiting four years for this announcement, and
are likely to be waiting another one or two for any real movement on the
problem.

The Touch Bar seems like a pretty apparent failure in that even most of the
"until death" apologists can't or won't defend it, but Apple's not going to
give up this quickly. I think you'll get your wish, but not soon.

~~~
slantyyz
>> Fans of the Mac Pro have been waiting four years for this announcement, and
are likely to be waiting another one or two for any real movement on the
problem.

The troublesome thing with this article is that even if Apple put out a Mac
Pro with the latest and greatest guts in the old cheese grater chassis today,
pros would be extremely happy. FWIW, I still think the cheese grater chassis
is a great design.

Sure, design matters, but the livelihood of pros depends on their ability to
get sh!t done. Just giving them access to "less pretty" hardware that does
what they need today is better than making them wait another year or so.

Of all the Macs, the Mac Pro is probably the easiest to design. What people
basically need are modular-PCs that can run OSX on the latest hardware and
gives the user choice with respect to GPU manufacturer. There's less of a need
to make it the smallest possible computer, because smaller makes it harder to
do upgrades.

------
okket
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osborne_effect](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osborne_effect)

    
    
      The Osborne effect is a term referring to the unintended
      consequences of a company announcing a future product,
      unaware of the risks involved or when the timing is
      misjudged, which ends up having a negative impact on the
      sales of the current product. This is often the case when a
      product is announced too long before its actual
      availability. This has the immediate effect of customers
      canceling or deferring orders for the current product,
      knowing that it will soon be obsolete, and any unexpected
      delays often means the new product comes to be perceived as
      vaporware, damaging the company's credibility and
      profitability.

~~~
stephen_g
This is completely irrelevant to this situation. Their Mac Pro sales have
surely already reduced to a trickle, and they will know that they will not
sell a huge amount of the updated bridging model. The iMac update has been
expected for a while so they're not changing much mentioning that's coming
later this year either.

It's not like killing the current Mac Pro sales is exactly going to put Apple
in trouble - they're raking in money from the iPhone and MacBook (Pro) lines.

This is a carefully thought out plan from Apple for sure, unlike Osborne's
blunder.

~~~
valuearb
They just refreshed the Mac Pro though. That's curious timing with the
announcement.

~~~
jzl
I would guess that the only people buying Mac Pros at this point are people
who need to for infrastructure compatibility reasons, and/or who need
something more powerful than a MBP but absolutely can't go with an iMac for
whatever reason. These are mostly people who probably would have been buying
more even without the bump. So the bump is just a nice bonus and tip of the
hat from Apple to hang in there.

Example of what I'm talking about? Check out this Mac Pro server rack setup:

[http://photos.imgix.com/racking-mac-pros](http://photos.imgix.com/racking-
mac-pros)

------
milhous
What are the chances the new Mac Pro will simply be a smaller, higher-density
form factor of the cheese grater Mac Pro?

Also glad to hear the Mac Mini's not being killed off.

~~~
noir_lord
Not sure why it would need to be smaller, the Cheesegrater was exactly what
I'd expect a Pro level machine to look like and I've never been an apple user,
I just love that case.

It's a pro level desktop, size (within reason) constraints aren't really an
issue.

~~~
milhous
I agree. Bringing back the old design would immediately solve a lot of
problems, but Apple won't do that. Even with a new redesign, I assume the
system will still be designed to accommodate standard-sized GPUs and other
add-in cards, unless Apple is going to use custom packaging, which is
doubtful. That's why I guessed that they could potentially make the new Mac
Pro smaller and have it sit on a desk instead of the floor, etc. Instead of
the current cylindrical Mac Pro, it would go back to something box-shaped.

------
Shivetya
I think the reason to keep the Mac Pro above all else is to have a halo
product for their Mac OS line. Yeah they don't expect large sales but it
should be the best that Apple can do with the technology, a preview of stuff
to filter down with appropriate early adopter tax.

------
throw2016
Apple should not lose focus of their roots. They need to remain committed to
desktops and laptops. With Ryzen there are now tons more options.

While the iPhone and iPad businesses are solid, they can be cyclical and
nowhere near as robust as their core faithful mac users who have stuck with
them for decades.

Few professionals are going to muck about with a hackintosh and I mean no
disrespect to those who muck about. I have done it myself, and its great as a
curiosity and to learn but at a point you just need to get things done and
have proper seamless hardware support for all the peripherals for pro level
work.

------
gdubs
Interesting - buried in there was the bit of strategy on the part of Apple,
expecting software to take advantage of parallel GPUs, and that not really
panning-out in the high-end film production apps.

------
dade_
Brand loyalty is silly. It does mean I need to avoid platform lock-in, but it
is completely worth it. I buy the best machine available for me at the time.
When it was time to replace my MacBook Pro 2011, it wasn't a machine from
Apple. I bought a Surface Pro 3 and thought that I'd switch back to Mac when
Apple sorted out whatever their problem is.

Vapour Race 2017: Next Gen MacBook Pro or Surface Pro 5.

It would be nice to have a real GPU again....

~~~
timdavila
How do you like the Surface Pro 3 for software development? Do you have an
external monitor/keyboard setup?

~~~
dade_
I think it is great, all the usual Windows items apply.

Specific to the SP3 Pro: use the SP4 keyboard, it is much better and is
completely compatible; the dock is expensive and worth it: 2 display port
connectors so I have the surface display, 4K monitor + 1K monitor attached
working at the same time - Also wired Gigabit Ethernet; Magnet connector for
the dock/power is super convenient; Power adapter has USB charging; I use the
new Surface Ergonomic keyboard and a Logitech MX Master Mouse at home and the
Surface foldable mouse on the road (best portable mouse I have used). I keep
the surface on my desk so I can use it with my pen, I just flip the keyboard
underneath it. On the road: the MicroSD provides all the extra storage I need
(movies on the plane), and it has a real USB 3 port, battery life is around 5
hours, but better if you are only using it to watch movies or reading. Runs
VMs effortlessly with i7 processor.

Biggest problem is power, sometimes it sleeps and won't wake up. Happens far
more often than it should, but I haven't heard the same complain from people
with Surface Pro 4s.

Hope that helps.

~~~
timdavila
Thanks! I'm considering an SP4 or the Surface Book. Will definitely be getting
a dock either way.

~~~
wtetzner
I recently got the Surface Book, and it's pretty fantastic. Both the keyboard
and touchpad are great. I like the keyboard even better than my late 2012
rMBP's keyboard.

I have a SP3, and it's nice, but I didn't like using the type cover. I much
prefer being able to keep it in my lap, with the screen suspended from the
keyboard. I'm sure it works great with a dock, but I haven't use one.

------
fumar
Reposting my comment from a duplicate thread:

This is an interesting PR approach, non-Apple process. They took time to talk
to their top journalist connections in order to halt the the "apple doesn't
care about pros anymore" articles. I applaud the additional transparency,
smart. What I am not convinced about is that they are building the right
solutions. How did their product teams miss this gap several years back? If
Apple saw the "developers" as a growing user base, why did the new Macbook
launch with a touch strip? They should know what device (laptop vs desktop)
developers prefer. Did the Macbook and Mac Pro leadership change? Was it
personnel issue?

Overall an interesting situation I would love to better understand. If all
revenue and growth projections are positive, why appease a vocal minority? I
assume they do believe their "early adopter developer creative types" are a
vocal minority that can sway a large consumer base's brand perception.

------
doppel
I am really curious what Apple feel constitutes "pro" apps. "Software
development" is mentioned, but the general sentiment from Hacker News and
developers I have talked to seems to be that Apple do not understand their
"Pro" audience, at least when it comes to the Macbook Pro (granted, it's a
different beast than Mac Pro).

~~~
TheRealDunkirk
FTFA:

> Apple’s research shows that 15 percent of all Mac users use at least one
> “pro” app frequently. These are apps for things like music creation, video
> editing, graphic design, and software development.

> Schiller, on Apple’s own pro apps: “I just want to reiterate our strong
> commitment there, as well. Both with Final Cut Pro 10 and Logic 10, there
> are teams on those software products that are completely dedicated to
> delivering great pro software to our customers.

------
markdog12
I shudder to think of the price of the iMac Pro.

~~~
treehau5
But it's going to be amazing.

It's going to be an iPod, a Phone, AND an _internet communications device_

~~~
simonh
Bearing in mind how much I use Skype compared to phones, this is actually
scarily accurate.

------
ericcholis
Working in a small-ish company, my job responsibilities are relatively fluid,
with major shifts coming every few years. First, it was a shift away from
Windows to Mac to develop PHP. Recently, I've off-loaded most of my graphic
design work, which means I'm less reliant on the Adobe Creative Suite. So, my
next shift might just be to Fedora or Ubuntu.

Not that I'm not satisfied with Mac OS or Apple hardware. But, they refresh
too infrequently. I love the mac mini, my late-2012 is still chugging along
nicely. But, I was able to expand the memory and swap the HDD for a SSD.

I don't _need_ the retina iMac, I'd rather put the money into more memory and
faster storage. For the same reason I'm not a customer for the Pro; I don't
need the Xenon or enhanced GPU. So, where do I fit into Apple's product line?

~~~
H1Supreme
After Apple launched the MBP's back in October, I moved to Linux for all my
development work (web included). If you're not reliant on Adobe as much
anymore, it's an easy transition.

I installed Gimp for basic photo editing (cropping, basic toning), and it's
really not too bad once you get used to it. I have a long history with Adobe
products too.

------
markdog12
> One of the good things, hopefully, with Apple through the years has been a
> willingness to say when something isn’t quite what we wanted it do be,
> didn’t live up to expectations, to not be afraid to admit it and look for
> the next answer.

Not sure Apple fits the description here.

~~~
brandur
Yep. What a silly thing for them to say as long as the Touch Bar exists.

But seriously, Apple has a history much closer to the opposite of that. Never
admit fault. If something really isn't working, pretend that it is right up
until a replacement is launched. Just like PowerPC to Intel. Just like the Mac
Pro until today. Just like the Apple Watch and Touch Bar (admittedly these
last two are a little more speculative on my part, but I think it'll happen).

------
tambourine_man
_The original iMac, you never would’ve thought as remotely touching pro uses._

Not true at all, it was G3 almost as fast as Apple's then PowerMac. The only
"problem" was that USB was slow compared to SCSI.

But I used it for PRO work for years. Great value for the money

~~~
LordKano
When the iMac was introduced, I worked at an Apple dealer. I can still
remember one client who used to do video production work on an iMac. There may
have been others but I distinctly remember one.

------
rdl
I've given up on OSX except as an iOS dev platform.

I'm using chromebook hardware (high end, but $200-500) for daily use most of
the time, for reasons which will be clear in a while. (I still use iOS for
mobile, though.)

For high-end computing, I just got an Acer Predator 17X "gaming" laptop (it
was a toss up between that and a Dell PWS 7720). $2850, 32GB/512GB SSD/1TB,
17" 4K screen, GTX 1080, great keyboard, external mouse, 1-3h of battery life
under hard use. Add 2 more NVMe SSDs and 32GB RAM (64GB total), with
Linux/Win10 dualboot. It's pretty amazing. The alternative Dell PWS was about
$4500 for a similar config and a tiny bit better in some ways.

------
SippinLean
I understand the consumer market for, say pre-built Dell desktops with an i3
you get your mom for surfing the web.

What graphics professional isn't assembling their own rig though? $3k is a LOT
of money to spend on a desktop.

I'm old enough to remember dedicated SGI workstations, and a decade ago I felt
OSX had some advantages in graphics, I can't think of any of those that exist
today, at least to justify such a huge markup on parts I could buy myself.

I'm generally curious, I feel like I'm missing out, people that would consider
paying $3k for a computer made out of easily-obtained components, why is it
worth it to you?

~~~
DoofusOfDeath
My wife has a photography business. Photoshop and Lightroom are essential
tools for her.

Right now she uses Windows 7 Pro. We can't stay on it long-term because of
security (and eventually driver) issues.

Migrating to Windows 10 (non-enterprise) isn't an option because the forced
updates are an unacceptable risk to downtime, especially at certain points in
her business calendar (e.g., highschool yearbook photo season).

We may end up migrating to a new Mac Pro, but it won't be because the hardware
is awesome. Truth be told, it will likely be overkill for her needs, and
definitely overpriced.

We'd migrate her business to a Mac Pro because OS X doesn't have Windows 10's
problems, and because we can probably recover from a hardware failure quickly
due to the system's expected modularity.

~~~
SippinLean
I'm not here to sing Windows' praises, Win10 has had it share of annoyances
for me, but I've just set it (non-enterprise) to have to prompt me for
updates, there are no forced updates. If that is the big feature that has you
prepared to spend a hefty premium you might look into it further.

> Photoshop and Lightroom are essential tools

Those are in the cloud now, and performance is mostly based on your GPU.

>Truth be told, it will likely be overkill for her needs, and definitely
overpriced.

>We'd migrate her business to a Mac Pro because OS X doesn't have Windows 10's
problems

This is insightful, thank you.

>because we can probably recover from a hardware failure quickly due to the
system's expected modularity

Every hand-built PC will be just as or more modular though. If that's your
concern, look at, say the Mac Minis with the RAM soldered in, I love Apple
industrial design but don't like how hard it is to upgrade the hardware,
generally.

------
clapinton
"The second would be to bite the bullet and tell the world what your plans
are, even though it’s your decades-long tradition — a fundamental part of the
company’s culture — to let actual shipping products, not promises of future
products, tell your story."

Interestingly enough, they also broke secrecy in 2013 when they gave a sneak
peek of the new MacPro at WWDC, which would only ship later that year. They
probably only announce products when they're ready to ship to not hurt sales
of the existing models, but I'm guessing that won't make much of a difference
with the current MacPro.

------
cletus
So Apple is completely rethinking the Mac Pro for a 2018 release 5 years after
their last complete rethink of the Mac Pro? Does this mean it'll be another 5
years of no upgrades while they completely rethink it once more?

This is the problem: Apple has just lost user trust with this one.

All they ever needed to do was have something like the pre-cylinder Mac Pro:
something PC-like. A case with replaceabl parts and lots of expansion slots.
That's it.

Have any Mac Pro users long since moved on to Windows (or even Linux) or gone
down the hackintosh route? Who is going to trust the Mac Pro at this point?

~~~
oneeyedpigeon
Every company comes out with dud products once in a while. Remember the G4
cube? Apple's had a bad run when it comes to desktop machines, but you've put
your finger on exactly what they need to do next: pre-cylinder Mac Pro revamp.
They've done exactly that before, I don't see why they wouldn't again. Of
course, if the 2018 Mac Pro turns out not to fit this particular vision, I'd
guess it's pretty much game over for all but the most niche of their pro
desktop customers.

------
dolguldur
This is excellent news. Even if you don't end up using one, I think it's
motivating if a powerful upgradable Mac Pro exists. Something to aspire to.

Depending on your area you might at some point have to do lengthy computations
or you start working with deep neural nets and then want to have Nvidia
hardware.

I think it's great if you can stay on your favorite platform and have
everything on one system.

Also: continuous integration for iOS. If these machines will be reasonably
priced it will result in faster test build times for many engineers out there.

So I'm very happy about this unexpected announcement.

------
alkonaut
Wow. I don't know what the time scales are when companies like Dell or Zotac
spit out one of their bespoke desktop towers, but "not this year" for
something they obviously already worked on for a while seems long.

Obviously the trash can was a huge design effort and I get the feeling they
want to be just as revolutionary this time if they spend so much time, when
they are obviously in a hurry.

Shouldn't they just be making a new 2 socket cheese grater tower? As simple as
possible? The USP of the Mac is Mac OS, not that it uses a custom power
supply.

------
twblalock
This may be too little, too late.

As the article points out, Apple felt the need to make this announcement even
though the new Mac Pro won't be released until next year, because they don't
want more pro users to abandon the platform.

That's a pretty sorry state of affairs. I don't know if there are good
statistics about this, but I wouldn't be surprised if quite a few users have
already abandoned Macs for Windows. Microsoft is making a big push to attract
creative professionals, who are heavy Mac users as far as I know.

------
sparkling
Too late. Hackintosh is up and running.

~~~
Tepix
A new Mac Pro that can be upgraded by the user is great news for the
Hackintosh community as well. There will be more drivers for more components.

~~~
sjwright
My impossible dream is that Apple would simply release a microATX motherboard
containing all of the "Mac goodness" and bundled with a license for macOS.

~~~
H1Supreme
Or just sell a copy of the OS, and write a few drivers.

------
forgottenacc57
I'll believe it if Apple maintains up its commitment to keeping Mac relevant,
over the long term.

Easy for a relationship abuser to quickly "fix" the problems then go back to
their old ways.

------
ianai
This is why monopolistic companies suck. It literally does not matter what
Apple does. They're the only vendor of MacOS and Mac hardware. So what if you
hate their ancient Mac Pro line? If you're tied to their ecosystem you have to
pay up. And because you pay up they can claim their way "won". But your
original demand for a good is still unmet. You've just found a way to settle
for what the monopolist will grant you. That should really piss people off.

/caffeinated rant

------
ShirsenduK
They have world's top engineers, designers and dollars! And they use reporters
send out an apology. Can't even do it directly to its users/fans. Reading the
content it feels like a damage control PR.

Apple has lost its way. Their support has become horrible if not arrogant.
Their updates keep bricking devices more often than not. Their hardware fails
more than it used to.

If they thought the Mac Pro was a mistake, how is the MacBook Pro a success?

Can't innovate anymore, my arse, you bet you can't!

------
yuhong
I wonder why they didn't even update the current design to
Haswell-E/Broadwell-E and DDR4. I don't think it would be that hard, right?

------
hkmurakami
"Overall, the split between notebooks and desktops in Mac sales is roughly
80/20\. (Personally, I’m a little surprised desktops account for even 20
percent of sales. I would have guessed 85/15, and wouldn’t have been surprised
to hear 90/10.)"

Is this because some companies are running rendering farms on a whole bunch of
Mac Pros?

------
cdbattags
Curious how many of y'all have seen Casey Neistat's workbench explainer vids
and his comments about the Mac Pro...

In so many words he uses it as a data management interface for his many TBs of
external hard drives and that's about it. This struck me pretty hard in
framing my opinion of what the Mac Pro really is to those who have it.

------
tmaly
I bought a macbook pro back in the summer of 2015. It is still running strong
despite the coffee I split on it.

I am hoping for a serious memory upgrade when every they get around to it.

I am curious what others are using for external storage? I did not splurge on
a big internal drive, but I am finding any video work really consumes a ton of
space.

~~~
leonroy
LaCie Thunderbolt 2big here for high def and 4K projects - works great.

Then a Synology NAS for long term storage - also contains my entire iMovies
library since gigabit is plenty fast for SD video.

------
adw
This might be too little, too late. They should do what they did with the
Intel transition; start selling PCs which can run Mac OS X as an interim
measure.

Why might they not do this?

a) makes them look bad

b) well... is there a CPU architecture transition coming up? Last time there
was this performance block, it was time to move from PowerPC.

------
samcat116
Am I the only one that thinks of this [1] concept when reading this article?

[1]- [http://www.cultofmac.com/463288/mac-pro-concept-is-the-
perfe...](http://www.cultofmac.com/463288/mac-pro-concept-is-the-perfect-
desktop-apple-wont-make/)

------
barelyusable
Man, am I the only one who needs to stick my eyeballs out to really read this
little, little, tiny font?

------
chrismealy
If they want to demonstrate their commitment to pro apps they could start by
bringing back Aperture.

------
paulrpotts
This is a combination of vaguely encouraging, and vaguely maddening.

Perhaps I'm just a Luddite, but what I really want from my desktop Macs is,
basically, what I already have in my 2008 Mac Pro and my very ancient Mac
Mini, just updated, because those machines won't last forever.

The 2008 Mac Pro has the giant aluminum case. It has four drive bays. That
machine has been an absolute warhorse for me. It's pretty much been running
every day since 2008. I've produced a lot of video clips and multi-track songs
using Logic. The only things I haven't liked about it have been (1) Snow
Leopard was more reliable for audio, on this box, than later releases, (2)
Apple has gradually walked away from things I wanted to do with the server
subsystem, like maintain a usable current version of Apache in the OS
distribution, and (3) the box is quite loud for use in a recording studio.

With the Mac Mini I am actually planning to buy some newer refurbished Mac
Minis with SSDs. These machines are almost perfect for use in recording
situations.

Apple is so obsessed with design -- the tin can design of the modern Pro,
whatever "modular" design they are cooking up with the future Pro design --
that it doesn't sound like they will consider that the old Pro had an
industrial design that was almost ideal, with the exception in my view of the
noise level. A honking big case with a lot of thermal mass and big fans and a
lot of room for hot memory and drives is in fact perfect. It is beautiful to
me because it is so simple and reliable. It doesn't need to be tiny. Another
option would be a rackable version. And that's it. That's all I need from a
high-end computer.

For the low-end utility machine like the Mini I want it to be small and
_silent_.

The iMac probably has enough CPU but I don't think it is quiet or expandable
enough and I need 4-16 terabytes of storage right in the box and an easy way
to back it up _to physical drives in my own house_, not the cloud.

I'm still resentful of the thousands of hours of work I put in to Aperture
projects. Tens of thousands of photos, many with a lot of delicate editing,
which don't even render on the screen correctly anymore. I'm still resentful
of all the projects I had built in iMovie which don't work in later versions
because of the features that Apple jettisoned. If Apple has a solution for the
two big needs I've got -- the small ultra-quiet media "capture" capability
(for audio), and a big honking _simple_ Pro for editing and production, _and_
it appears they are serious about maintaining Logic, then I'll stay with them
and probably buy more Macs. If Logic goes, I'm gone. (Mac user and on-and-off
developer since 1985... Apple user since 1977...)

~~~
oneeyedpigeon
It feels to me as if their thunderbolt experiment with the Mac Pro was
entirely the wrong way round. What I suspect they'll do with the next round of
iterations is go strong on thunderbolt with the iMac; at least 4 ports instead
of 2. The iMac has a bigger market, so that's how they'll drive adoption. The
Mac Pro, meanwhile, won't be so reliant on thunderbolt, although it will still
support a good number of ports - why not? - still probably 6.

------
mtgx
I'm hoping the next Mac Pro will feature an AMD 16-core "threadripper."

------
gnicholas
> _We think it’s really important to create something great for our pro
> customers who want a Mac Pro modular system, and that’ll take longer than
> this year to do._

So perhaps starting in 2016, or 2015, or 2014 would have been a good idea?

------
andy_ppp
I always assumed that upgrading the Mac Pro was going to by daisy chaining
them with Thunderbolt connections. Guess I was wrong, but I'd love 24 cores
and 6 graphics cards on my desk even if the price was crazy.

------
roadfun
If Apple makes upgrading components easier for themselves that will likely
mean users and resellers can mod them more easily as well. I wonder how the
'next year' comment fits into the CPU and GPU roadmaps.

------
jrs95
It'd be pretty awesome if this came w/ Ryzen. Official ECC support ought to be
a thing by then. Given that they already have a relationship with AMD for
graphics cards it doesn't seem impossible.

------
saijanai
Apple should go beyond trying to woo back their "power users" and design
something to impress non-Mac users so that they’ll want to buy the new Mac Pro
just so they can run Windows or Linux.

------
BonoboIO
"The Mac is a $25 billion business for Apple annually, and according to the
company there are 100 million people in the active Mac user base worldwide."

... and they treat it like sh*t.

Harsh words but 3 years to update a pc?

------
jccalhoun
It is really interesting to read the articles from the other people who were
there (links in the daring fireball article) and see the little differences in
what each of them put in or left out.

------
pier25
Many people have already moved to Windows, Linux, and hackintosh. If Apple
wants to win them back it will need to offer something really good in specs,
features, and specially price.

~~~
valuearb
Yet somehow they have record sales.

~~~
pier25
On desktops?

------
ksec
No one ask the question, why is an 2017 Mac Pro still with 22nm CPU, 28nm GPU,
no USB 3.1.

None of these has anything to do with Thermals.

I am betting Apple will switch to AMD's Ryzen CPU in their next iMac.

------
ZFH
Too little too late. It's telling that they sell so few Mac Pros that they can
ignore the Osborne effect of soft announcing a new model at least one year
away in favor of some fluffy PR.

It's strange they don't understand that doing nothing but keeping the Pro up
to date spec-wise would've signaled mild disregard already. Keeping it frozen
for four years is a clear, prolonged, 'we don't care about you' message to
pros.

And everyone could've told them the trashcan design made no sense, and in fact
did when it debuted. No need to wait four years for that. Probably Ive really
really liked it and nobody managed to stop him.

------
exabrial
I hope they don't remove all the ports and give it wireless charging... :D

J/K This is great news. I <3 OSX, but lately the hardware has been heading
into reverse innovation

------
iddqd
So, they'll have a decent pro desktop available in more than a year. Do they
seriously expect anyone to wait for them after years of silence?

------
make3
kind of off-topic but we need a MBP with an NVIDIA GPU

------
protomyth
_Apple has “great” new iMacs in the pipeline, slated for release “this year”,
including configurations specifically targeted at large segments of the pro
market._

This just fills me with dread. It just seems like Apple continually doesn't
get it and the "iMac is a pro computer" is the canary in the coal mine. We
already switched to Adobe for all video editing after the Final Cut Pro
fiasco, and if this crud keeps up I can see some serious pressure to just move
to Windows boxes. I'll hate it, but I'll understand.

~~~
oneeyedpigeon
> large segments of the pro market

Lots of different types of 'pro' user; there was mention in the post of xcode
developers being either the largest market, or the largest growing one. As a
developer who currently uses a 2014 MBP (mainly docked), I am very, very
likely to be in the market for either a new iMac later this year, or a Mac Pro
next year. I'm glad Apple is, finally, looking to address this issue.

~~~
protomyth
I can see the MBP (only portability option, I use one myself) or the Mac Pro,
but the iMac has turned into such an unexpandable machine, it troubles me that
anything Pro is associated with it. It serves too many masters at this point.
I hope the new Mac Pro is good.

------
draw_down
But who would buy this? Especially given the track record? Sorry but Apple's
handling of this market sector is mystifyingly bad.

------
iansowinski
I personally would go for Linux, but lack of adobe apps for me is the biggest
pain and reason to use macOS in 2017...

------
tcfunk
Unless you're locked into OS X, Corsair maybe just beat them to the punch.

------
kuon
Too late, I moved away from Apple. My current setup is Windows as desktop and
I log in to linux for dev via X11. I am still testing the setup, but so far it
has been a very positive experience. I'll share my complete setup on my blog
when I consider it stable.

------
rodionos
I have read quite a few confusing things about new MBPs. I'll probably stay
put for another year before bailing out of the Apple ecosystem (aka distortion
field).

~~~
stephen_g
My brother has one - it's quite a nice machine and the touch bar is way cooler
than I thought it would be (whether it will be really useful is probably yet
to be seen over the long term).

He's mostly using it for video editing (4K/5K) and it screams along in Final
Cut Pro X.

------
redsummer
What do they mean by a 'modular system'? Like the old Mac Pro, with the side
door? Or like hifi separates, with a separate GPU, CPU, box of ports etc?

~~~
CPLX
I would hope it has the standard meaning, ie you can buy one now in one
configurations, and change or upgrade single components of it to achieve a
different configuration in the future.

------
reason_police
The 2013 Mac Pro was a disgusting money-grab. Back then I _really_ wanted one,
but just couldn't bring myself to pay their _outrageous_ prices.

~~~
pdpi
I'm not sure what you're talking about.

At the time of release, their asking price for the dual D700 system was less
than the price of buying just the two equivalent FirePro W9000.

------
ThomPete
What an incredible unprofessional move, this would never have happened under
Steve Jobs.

Apple has been known for having the patience to wait with introducing things
until they got them right. I guess this really is the Scullyfication of Apple.
Desparate moves rather than just putting your heads down and come out with
something new when you have it.

~~~
Eric_WVGG
Secrecy has plenty of benefits, like keeping plans secret from competitors,
dominating the news cycle, and delighting customers.

None of those things speak to a hemorrhaging segment of users whose needs are
performance and expandability.

It's a show of strength for the modern era of Apple that they are willing to
switch strategies when necessary.

~~~
ThomPete
If they were really serious they would make an open letter or they would write
out to their Mac Pro users personally. That way their "openness" would
actually make sense and they would show they really cared.

Pushing this to a little elite group of bloggers is just an amateurish move on
Apples part.

~~~
Eric_WVGG
Well now we're talking about subjective opinion. To me, press releases and
corporate double-speak are petulant. Actual engineers speaking frankly to
journalists, to me, is the height of professionalism.

~~~
ThomPete
All this is subjective. When Jobs wrote an open letter about not supporting
flash that wasnt a press release that was him taking responsibility and
adressing something heads on.

Making it engineers job to adress a leadership issue is exactly the wrong kind
of frank.

------
bane
Tl;dr Theatrical announcement of minor spec bump followed by undescribed
future replacement product in the next 18 months, for a widely disliked and
stale product makes front page of hn.

------
pavlov
_The current Mac Pro, as we’ve said a few times, was constrained thermally and
it restricted our ability to upgrade it._

So, when creating the 2013 Mac Pro, they knew they had to make a choice:
either an upgradable system or a thermally constrained one that might look
cool on the desk.

What kind of market research suggested that Mac Pro customers wanted the
latter? Or were they expecting to capture some new kind of pro customer base
that only buys sleek desktop cylinders?

~~~
__david__
> So, when creating the 2013 Mac Pro, they knew they had to make a choice:
> either an upgradable system or a thermally constrained one that might look
> cool on the desk.

No, that's not what they said at all. They said the choice they made was dual
GPUs because they thought that was the road everyone was going to take. That
turned out to be incorrect and the cylinder suffered because of that decision.
They weren't talking about field upgradability.

~~~
pavlov
The question stands regardless of who is doing the upgrading: why did Apple
design a thermally constrained system for the pro market? What was the point?

My experience with the 2013 Mac Pro is dismal. They suffer from a widespread
GPU overheating problem that leads to crashes on heavy workloads. It's
probably the worst Mac ever.

------
Entangled
Three years is excessively too much time in any modern measure and that's an
unacceptable excuse. Lack of vision is a more acceptable excuse.

I'd take the Mac Mini form factor and make a whole range of pluggable
computers from AppleTV-size for $99 to MacPro-size where you can buy as many
as you want and use them for the simplest (IoT) or complex tasks (Video
editing) while adding more cores, gpus, ram or anything you want is as easy as
opening the hatch and installing them.

Vision, not excuses, and looks like Tim Cook doesn't have it.

------
jbigelow76
Here is my gut prediction.

 _What Apple says is coming:_ new Mac Pro and branded external display
sometime in the future. Updated, prosumer level iMacs coming this year.

 _What I think will happen:_

2017 - Apple releases updated prosumer iMacs

2018 - Apple releases external monitor, also perfect for use with MacBook
Pros. Claims to still be working on Mac Pro

Late 2019 - Apple updates prosumer iMac again, says Mac Pro isn't needed
anymore, weathers the twitter/blog rage of the single digit % of Mac Pro users
that hung on from 2017

edit: formatting

------
classybull
The world would be better served by Apple getting out of the hardware business
and just selling OSX, allowing it to run on any x86 architecture without all
of the Hackintosh bull.

I don't understand who these people are that are spending a 50% premium on
components that are two to three years old. I use a MBP regularly, but only
because my work buys them.

~~~
jvzr
macOS would suck if it ran on every kind of hardware. It's because it's all so
tightly controlled that it works so great.

Windows is not inherently bad. But the premise of it working everywhere means
some trade-offs are made. Same for Android.

~~~
H1Supreme
Mac OS already runs on lots of different hardware. Just look at the list of
compatible hardware for building a Hackintosh. Graphics cards aside, there's a
lot of compatible components.

