
Software Developers: how to get a raise without changing jobs - Axsuul
https://fearlesssalarynegotiation.com/software-developers-how-to-get-a-raise/
======
redwards510
If only things were so easy. Our department gets allocated $XX,XXX each year
for raises. My boss has to split that among eight people. If I were to get a
5% bump like OP recommends, other people would get nothing.

Sounds like typical D-grade manager motivation. "Everyone work yourself to
death and I _might_ throw you a bone after one year!" I'd rather give up that
5% to have a sane work-life balance.

It's common knowledge that you must quit to increase your salary. It seems
like a stupid practice for companies to follow, but it must make sense
economically or they wouldn't do it.

~~~
conanbatt
That surely sounds like a negotiation tactic was played on you. "I cant give
you a raise without taking it from someone else" or "It's out of my hands" are
cut and dry sales tactics.

I am a bit pejorative to that tactic because if answered correctly, it
actually harms the salesman: proclaiming you cant give X salaries means that
they dont respect market rates and thus an employee is incentivized to leave
to someone that does. Their inability to give raises is a showing of weakness
not of strength.

~~~
JustSomeNobody
Sure it's a weakness, but they (management) don't care. If the developer
leaves, they'll hire another and in the mean time the remaining devs get to
pick up the slack. It's actually a convenient excuse for the schedule
slipping; they blame it on the developer who left because he "wasn't a team
player", even though management knows the real reason is because they simply
don't ... know ... how ... to ... manage.

~~~
conanbatt
Replace-ability is actually a solid negotiation tactic, but that's not the
same as intransigence regarding budget.

The characterization of management as incompetents backastabbers is as
childish as the one that says employees are lazy bums who should be grateful
of their salary.

~~~
dasil003
A million times this. The insidious part is that if you come up in that kind
of management culture, it destroys your motivation and ethics to where you
actually become a bad employee. You will then be less hirable by good
companies, and hence the vicious cycle. It's really a type of abusive
relationship.

------
hbt
Yes, the classic "just world hypothesis" [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Just-
world_hypothesis](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Just-world_hypothesis)

If you "work harder", you will be compensated fairly. Of course, "work harder"
is overrated now that work doesn't involve physical labor. "Work harder" has
been replaced by "create more value".

The expectation is after you create more value for the owners, you will be
compensated fairly. If you believe that, go talk to engineers who worked on
startups as early employees and got screwed by investors, founders, managers
etc.

Why? For many reasons:

\- the owners didn't think you could do any damage to their reputation and
impact hiring prospects after they screwed you

\- after the company grew, you were now interchangeable

\- needed to raise more money and dilute your shares

\- you were no longer as valuable to the next stage of the company

\- They didn't believe you could replicate the value you created again

etc.

Of course, founders, investors and friends stick around regardless of the
stage of the company or the value of their contribution. Why? Because they OWN
it, they have power.

 _Do not confuse performance for power_. The only time I got a significant
raise (I mean 4X the pay) is when I had significant leverage. Opportunism,
self interest and politics rule business.

People are not gonna give you more money if they can avoid it.

~~~
SamUK96
_Thank_ you. Spot on.

I've found that most seniors have gained their place because they made sure
nobody could become better than them. How seniors usually do this is by
restricting training, keeping knowledge of things they designed to themselves,
and so on.

Heck, where I'am working now, a senior has designed this billing system, and
literally nobody knows how to use it and it always breaks, but he _will not_
tell anybody how to fix it, despite me and dozens others shouting at him.

One word that ensures higher salaries...

Protectionism.

------
mrlyc
When my contract was up for renewal, what worked for me was to mention to my
manager that people doing my job in other companies were being paid $20 more
per hour than I was. I was hoping for a $5 increase or maybe even a $10 one
but he gave me the whole $20 and made me promise not to tell anyone.

Six months later, we got a new CEO and my contract was terminated because I
cost too much.

~~~
cryptozeus
Sorry but I laughed!!

------
iamthepieman
I've got raises as high as 206% by switching jobs. Most recent switch a little
over 2 years ago resulted in a 20% raise which is much more typical.

Never had more than a cost of living increase otherwise (2-3%),

My strategy is to move when I stop learning. It maximizes both my enjoyment
(learning challenges me and gives me motivation beyond a paycheck which is
good for me and my employer.) and my potential earnings.

~~~
user5994461
> 206%

So it proves that it's possible to get decent people at 206% under the market
:D

~~~
micahbright
Yes, but it's more like getting a ticking time bomb. Eventually, they will
find out the market rate.

~~~
user5994461
One may or may not find out. One may or may not have the balls to leave after
finding out.

So many variables at play :D

------
ffjffsfr
> Bring more value to the company than what’s expected of you. Then ask to be
> compensated for it.

Sorry but it doesn't always work like this. Sure, performing well makes it
more likely for you to get a raise, but there is no guarantee. Perhaps
performing well _increases probability_ of you getting a raise. But it does
not guarantee anything nor is it most important factor in computing this
probability. Probabibility of raise will depend on variety of factors
including your company culture, your manager personality, company financial
situation etc.

~~~
AnimalMuppet
No, it doesn't _always_ work like that. It works that way enough of the time
to be worth trying, though. Even if it doesn't get you a raise at your current
job, having done things that add value gives you a better negotiating position
for a different job.

~~~
gedrap
Exactly. You could do me the minimal amount of work required to stay employed
but then you can't expect a generous raise, unless you manage to play office
politics very well AND the workplace is quite toxic to allow that.

Personally, I try to give a fair amount of effort to deliver more value than
expected. It doesn't mean that I am working 60hrs/wk or anything like that,
just trying to be creative and not asking anyone to hold my hand in my
explorations.

------
Axsuul
Saw this set of polls from @zedshaw on twitter and had JUST read this article.
Seems relevant.
[https://twitter.com/zedshaw/status/795687259861172224](https://twitter.com/zedshaw/status/795687259861172224)

~~~
mijustin
Wow. That poll seems to indicate the only way most folks get a raise is by
quitting their job and getting a different one. :(

~~~
dsp1234
There are also social dynamics and logical fallacies at play.

For example, we brought on a front end developer who was about 1 year out of
college and hadn't done much. After 3 years, he had devoured basically
everything on the front end, but he hadn't gotten much of a raise, but was
leading a team in addition to his own work. An internal position opened up
that would have been a promotion for him, and when I talked to the person
hiring, I got a response of "What are you talking about? He's fresh out of
college". Few in the company could see past their mental model of him even
though he'd grown past it by far.

He wasn't able to break away from those pre-conceived, and built up opinions.
However, he left, got a new position for a quite a bit of a raise, and he's no
longer known as 'that college kid'.

In that way, it's like family dynamics. Being a 'kid sister' even though
everyone is in their 40s, has 2 or more kids of their own, and the age gap is
only 2 years. Replace your own unbreakable family dynamics here.

~~~
user5994461
Yep. Seen it happens. The only path to right the wrong perception is to start
anew elsewhere.

------
JoshDoody
Just saw a huge spike in traffic from HN and thought I would stop by to see
what all the fuss is about. Glad to see people reading the article and having
a productive conversation in the comments.

Happy to answer questions if you have them, and I'll hop into the comments as
well.

~~~
SadWebDeveloper
So you are the reason there are engineers that values themselves so high, that
when they reach the market again they ask as much's salary as if they were
CEO's?

~~~
troels
Are you implying that a CEO is more valuable than a good engineer?

~~~
SadWebDeveloper
YES

A _good_ CEO it's worth more than 1 good engineer by the fact the second one
needs input from the first one, a good engineer is useless without a goal or
an idea to develop. Software Foundations are probably the only places were
this tough isn't valid for everything else it should.

------
darklajid
Like in a lot of things: Context matters.

I can look at SV salaries and only shake my head. Random 'jump between jobs
every 6 month if needed to improve your net worth' advice from single mid-
twenties (not talking about the author, no clue about his background. But it
feels that this is the general attitude around salary improvement here) is not
globally applicable.

And the author basically says 'invest in the company and THEN ask for the
reward'. He's ignoring the 'or else' part. I am 100% sure that a healthy
portion of envy and fear is part of my rejection, so let's say I'm coming in
with a rather negative attitude. But that article is completely and absolutely
devoid of content.

"Work harder, then ask for a better salary based on your excellent
performance" isn't exactly worth a blog article. Writing down the year over
year effects of N percent in salary is trivial maths.

He's followed by Patio on Twitter, so I give the author the benefit of the
doubt and believe that he has sound advice to offer, a decent idea about
negotiation (with the 'context matters' caveat). But this article seems .. a
fluff piece?

~~~
user5994461
> "Work harder, then ask for a better salary based on your excellent
> performance" isn't exactly worth a blog article.

IMO. It's actually bad advice. It's wrong to think of salary as something
synced to productivity/value.

Working more guarantees pretty much nothing about future money. Only that
you're underpaid, and you've made yourself even more underpaid because you put
more hours.

"Get offers and negotiate as hard as necessary. Then work whatever you may or
wish." That's a way better strategy.

------
nachtigall
4\. Organize with (some of) your co-workers, maybe join a union. Act together
instead of fighting for higher wages on your own.

Seriously, the moment you are on a "secret" one-to-one with your boss you have
already lost. There's reason why unions have always bargained collectively,
and there's also reason why bosses have always tried to avoid this.

~~~
hueving
I'm against them and I'm not a manager. They encourage stagnation due to
rewarding seniority instead of contributions.

If everyone in the union gets X% (with or without a seniority bonus), why
would anyone give two shits about putting an effort in beyond the minimum.

You want a taste of what a software dev union is like in the US? Join a
government organization where income has almost no correlation with
performance and you'll be ready to put a gun to your head after 6 months due
to the glacial pace people work at (assuming you want to get things done
efficiently).

~~~
pitaj
This is great comment. Not necessarily because you're right (you are, at least
regarding the current state of things) but because you bring up the biggest
problem with unions in their current state.

People don't have an issue with collective bargaining, they have a problem
with the other negative effects of unions.

~~~
hiram112
I would be happy with an organization that would group together to avoid the
use of body shops that push wages down across the board.

The things that are happening Disney, Edison, and a lot of other places
shouldn't be tolerated by software devs collectively.

------
xchaotic
You should always approach the negotiations with an upper hand - an offer from
somewhere else. If it doesn't go well, just move.

~~~
dxxvi
You'll be given the raise, but you'll be let go very soon.

~~~
maxxxxx
Not necessarily true. I have had several occasions where I told my boss that I
had this offer and what does he recommend to do. I always got a raise and
wasn't laid off.

~~~
SteveNuts
How long did you stick around after you presented the other offer?

~~~
maxxxxx
Quite a while. There were no negative consequences.

~~~
ryandrake
Wow, I can't imagine a place where playing the "I got an offer somewhere else"
card wouldn't start a countdown clock on your career there.

~~~
maxxxxx
Do you just think it's that way or do you have experience? I used to imagine
management would take this personally but they generally don't. I wouldn't
recommend doing this every few months though.

~~~
ryandrake
Admittedly no, I've never known anyone to do it but people tend to be pretty
cagey about talking about salary and job hunting and that kind of stuff, so
who knows? I also have never seen anyone poop on their manager's desk but can
speculate about what would happen thereafter :-)

~~~
maxxxxx
They may take pooping on their desk personally so I would advice against that!
Try asking for more money first. If that doesn't work then you can poop on
their desk.

------
dfabulich
I often see articles like this talking about getting a "raise," but the steps
they talk about seem more in line what I'd think of as getting a "promotion"
(along a technical track). Is "getting a raise" the same thing as "getting a
promotion" for the purposes of this discussion?

If I get a promotion every two or three years, am I also supposed to be trying
to negotiate a non-promotion raise every 12 months?

~~~
vroombaprime
General case (if you are at a startup this doesn't apply): Getting a raise and
promotion are different things, though sometimes promotions happen at "raise
time" (yearly review cycle). There are also "out-of-cycle" raises but those
are generally for special cases where you need market adjustments or are a
star performer.

You _need_ to be getting a raise every 12 months just to keep up with
inflation. If the company is doing fine and you are a top-50% performing
employee you should be getting inflation+extra - if not, that is a bad sign.
The 'extra' seems to vary a lot by industry, I've seen 1-10% from friends in
other industries.

We're talking about yearly review cycles here, so when it's approaching that
time you need to be noting all the concrete work you've done, why it was
great, and why you need to be in the "above/way-above average" raise bucket.
You need to be managing your manager ahead of time so they think well of you
and have already allotted a nice raise to you in the spreadsheet. Your
negotiation is in the prep work with your manager: generally once the review
happens things are already in motion and not much will change course.

~~~
dfabulich
Well, yes, now that you mention it, those little across-the-board raises have
occurred.

I guess, to rephrase my question: am I doing myself a disservice if I'm not
negotiating "raises" at my current pay grade but only attempting to earn
"promotions" (which of course include pay increases)?

------
imaginenore
Don't ask, don't get. And asking is the only thing you can do. Almost never
will your boss/manager approach you and offer you a significant raise, even if
you're a kickass developer who is crucial to the company. Just ask.

Still, asking will only get you that far. I got $80->$90/hr raise by asking.
But then I got a 40% increase by changing jobs.

And if you're consulting, and are confident enough, you can just raise your
prices by a lot. I once was very busy, and told the client that I would freeze
my other project if they pay $150/hr, and they agreed to it. Win-win. I get
more money, they get the product.

~~~
troels
90 x 1.4 = 126. If you were making 126/h in a salaried job, why would you
consider 150/h an out-of-the-ordinary high wage when consulting?

------
acconrad
> _If you negotiate an additional 5% raise every two years you’ll make up that
> gap in your starting salary by Year 6_

Well if the average tenure of a software developer at a company is like 2-3
years, you will lose by asking for a raise and should just quit to go
somewhere else!

------
LouisSayers
In my experience you'll be much better off just quitting and joining other
companies, then going onto contracting.

Here's my own person experience in just a few years:

1\. Start off as a Grad on 30k GBP

2\. One and half years later quit, onto another company at 48k GBP (>50% pay
rise)

3\. One and half years later quit. Do own thing for a year. Then go onto
contracting at equivalent of 75k GBP (>50% pay rise)

So in summary, in the span of a 4 year period, I've gone from 30k GBP to 75k
GBP.

There's definitely an upper limit on this of course. I think if I were to get
out of startup land again now and focus on my salary I'd have to head to a
different market (currently in Australia). I'd either aim for contracting in
the UK where I know you can easily get 400-600 GBP per day, or the US where
salaries for devs just seem higher.

I'm playing long game though, taking the startup route. So I'll either be
collecting change from the streets in a few years, or hopefully I'll be well
ahead of the game. Will have to wait and see...

~~~
babbage141
Contracting for startups at 75k GBP? Is this in London? What industry is the
startup targeting?

~~~
UK-AL
75 k is acutally low for contracting.

Good contractors can hit 100k+

~~~
LouisSayers
Equivalent of 75K GBP - I moved to Australia and rates simply aren't as good

------
ensiferum
Write more code... urgh... code is stupidly expensive to any organization and
simple LOC should never be used as metric for anything.

Basically all the suggestions are low level grass roots value proposals. This
article has much better advice (IMHO)

[https://www.fastcompany.com/3064513/lessons-learned/im-a-
ceo...](https://www.fastcompany.com/3064513/lessons-learned/im-a-ceo-heres-
how-i-decide-whether-to-give-you-a-raise-or-lay-you-off)

------
quizzas
It really does depend on the organizational structure of the company, and
whether they appreciate how difficult it is to replace programmers with an
equally competent one. Most non-tech managers don't understand the intangible
costs of replacing programmers, but that's never stopped them treating
programmers like interchangeable cogs. If you work for a Fortune 500 non-
technical company, I don't believe this strategy works to well.

------
NKosmatos
No offense, but this is applicable in fairy land or in an idealized and fair
society/economy. Sure there are exceptions and I bet there are software
developers who get what they deserve, but the majority is in no position to
negotiate a 3-5% raise. I'm sure that for someone working in Silicon Valley
it's true but not for many countries I can think off (including Greece where I
work).

~~~
ryandrake
It's not necessarily true for Silicon Valley either. Despite the whole
"shortage of engineers" fairy tale that just won't die, it's very much an
employer's market, and employers are in the driver's seat when it comes to
compensation.

~~~
morgante
I feel like you should reassess.

What makes you think it's an employer's market? Do you think
Google/Facebook/etc. are paying $250k out of the goodness of their hearts?

Just because your personal experience doesn't confirm that it's very much an
employee's market doesn't make that false. Keep in mind that the market _is_
very skill-sensitive. Not all positions have intense competition for
employees, but there is a huge amount of demand for senior engineers who are
well-versed in a web stack.

------
Mandatum
$100/hr: 120K yr for 3-day/wk contracts, I like long weekends.. Java dev.

~~~
Traubenfuchs
As someone who doesn't earn quite as much, whose day job is maintaining and
modifying big, monolithic and outdated Spring/Webflow/JSF applications from
hell I'd like to ask you: What exactly are you doing and how do did you get
there?

~~~
Mandatum
Sorry for the late reply, I work in integration. I say I'm a Java dev but I
don't write much Java, I've specialised for the past 3 years in an ESB called
Mule.

The need for the tech seems to be rising around the world and I just happened
to pick it up on my first job (have been working "professionally" for 4
years). Didn't really start fully understanding the quirks and good ways of
doing things with it until this year, but I was charging $80/hr 2 years ago.

Seeing as you're already familiar with monoliths, I don't think it would be a
very far jump for you if you were interested in the tech. You can get
certifications for <$200USD with Mulesoft (a unicorn startup) which would
guarantee you a decent salary, contracting on the other hand is a networking
game.

Write a blog, give talks, goto meetups and find companies that need your
skills. Don't undervalue yourself, if you set your rate too low - your clients
aren't going to like it in a years time when you've realised you're worth 2X
and you start charging them 2X.

------
agounaris
Writing more code is definitely not the way to get a salary raise! Such a
simplified and wrong post about salary negotiation...

------
rockshassa
this "article" reads like it was written as propaganda by in-house HR to
retain staff. 3% is basically a non-raise, it just keeps up with inflation. an
extra 5% is alright, but is not adequate to retain talent who knows their
worth. i once received an annual raise was 2.5%. i pushed back a bit but not
too hard, as i've done this enough times to know that it is never worth the
amount of stress involved. fast forward a few months, i'm walking out the door
to a new gig with a signifigant increase (lets say 20%). old mgmt didnt see it
coming, despite the ample warning i gave them, and ample opportunities to
correct the situation. they never do, just accept it and move on

------
jerkstate
Q: How do I get a raise without changing jobs? A: Get a raise without changing
jobs.

------
known
Show
[https://www.glassdoor.co.in/Salaries/index.htm](https://www.glassdoor.co.in/Salaries/index.htm)
to your management

------
andrew_wc_brown
At least in startups. You salaried gets lowered when funding gets tougher.
This has happen to be at every startups I was employed at.

------
z3t4
You can not earn more then someone else is willing to pay .

~~~
draw_down
Some are willing to pay more than others. :)

------
zer00eyz
fearlesssalarynegotiation.com sounds like such a reputable place to buy a $199
bundle.

So lets break down why this 199 bundle might work. Odds are that if your
buying this, you lacked the confidence to negotiate upfront. If your low man
on the totem poll its easy for me as a manager to get you to the same level as
everyone else. That deals with year one, your not supposed to try this again
till year three. By then your out side the 60 day window, and your not getting
a refund on the BS package.

