

Ask HN: Need salary negotiation advice - throwaway2112

(Throwaway account - coworkers read HN and know my main account)<p>After spending a couple of years at my first job out of grad school, I applied to Google at my friend's suggestion (he currently works there).  The interviews went well, and the recruiter called today to say that things are moving to the "compensation committee" stage. I accepted my first (and to date, only) job offer several years back without any negotiations, so I have no experience negotiating whatsoever.<p>What struck me as weird was that the recruiter wanted me to fill out a data sheet listing my salary, previous salary increase, previous bonuses, expected future bonuses, all stock/options grant info, etc. Is this the norm? My friends who were hired straight out of school naturally didn't have to fill this out, though some of my friends say the salary inquiries are normal when applying to new jobs.<p>Will filling this out impact the negotiations at all? I didn't really have a plan other than asking for my current salary + 20%, and seeing where they would meet me in the middle.<p>Thanks!
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vladd
Never ever disclose your previous compensation. If they insist, say you've
signed a legal document for confidentiality. It's part of any recruiter
training to avoid causing legal damage (they never ask you to disclose
proprietary info from your previous employer since they can be fired for doing
it). They'll give up instantly their requests upon hearing that.

Never take into consideration your current salary when you're the first to
give the number. Search the company, the job or/and the area on
<http://www.glassdoor.com/> and use those averages plus 10% (more/less
depending on how bad you want the job, how much risk you tolerate, how well
you did on the interviews and how much experience do you have in the field).

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clueless123
In my experience you never get what you deserve, you get what you negotiate.

Pick a number to which you will be 100% happy to do the work for and use it as
your "must have" number, from there consider perks, bonuses, stock etc as nice
extras but not part of the must have.

Start as high as you can because that sets your baseline. From there consider
that it is a lot easier to get more $ by changing jobs than by merit raises..

My personal pet-peeve, for some reason companies have a problem increasing the
pay of top engineers at a rate equivalent to their productivity. (Something
that sales people _always_ get)

And finally... always, always always remember: if it is not on paper, it does
not count!

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perivamsi
+1 for "if it is not on paper, it does not count!"

I was naive (or inexperienced) enough to take the word of my boss when he said
that the firm will match an offer I had with another firm. One year later, I
am working with the same firm for 80% less than what I could have been
earning.

I was given all sorts of reasons under the sun for not increasing my pay.
Looking back, I should have got it in writing.

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Huppie
Okay, at the risk of sounding a bit sleezy, here some tips I found useful
myself:

1\. Never, ever, give out information about previous compensation. Always
attempt to deflect that with "I don't feel comfortable talking about that yet"
(and get the conversation back to what you can do for them.) If they insist
(and you are not prepared to walk) give them a really high estimate ("I was
thinking roughly <highest you could think of> to <that + 25%>")

2\. Always let them make an offer first

3\. Remember that their budget isn't a problem, if they decided they really
want you, on the scale of Google your salary is merely a rounding error on the
budget.

4\. PRACTICE! I mean, get a friend you trust to do a role-play of the various
tactics the recruiters use to low-ball you and practice the conversation _at
least_ 5 times.

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kaisdavis
> Will filling this out impact the negotiations at all?

Highly. Filling out that form eliminates negotiation completely. You're giving
up your informational advantage and letting them set your salary.

> I didn't really have a plan other than asking for my current salary + 20%

Quite frankly, you're worth more than that.

Here's a few questions that I advocate my friends ask themselves during their
job searches.

1\. How much do I need to make?

What's your budget? How much do you need to make month to month to survive?
Okay, that's the base line. You can't earn less than that or else, by
definition, you aren't earning enough to get by.

What are your savings goals? How much do you want to save month to month? Add
that to the baseline.

How much more do you want to make? How much mad money do you want each month
that you can consciously spend on whatever you want?

Add those together. That's a pretty good indicator of how much you want to
make to be happy. Now, it may be that this number (x) is less than what you're
already making (y). If so, congratulations, you're in a great position, but
that doesn't mean you don't deserve more money.

2\. What's industry compensation?

For the job title you're interviewing for, what's industry compensation like
nationwide? How about locally?

Use salary search sites, informational interviews, and beers with people
working in your industry to figure out about how much these types of positions
pay. It may end up being more than your x + 20% estimate.

3\. What's company compensation like?

Do you know anyone who works at the company? It's google, so you probably do.
Can you find out what someone starting at this title makes to start? What's
the work load like? What are the other perks?

4\. Aside from cash, what do you want?

Google has nice swag, but is there anything you need that you can ask for
outside of cash?

Maybe you want more vacation time. Maybe you want to work from home 1 week
each month. Ask yourself 'What would make this job awesome to me.' Then ask
for that.

5\. Additional Resources

Here's two articles that can help with this decision.

The first is 'The Business' by rands: <http://ka1.us/dgX6>

It's a great overview of figuring out how much you're worth and getting them
to agree.

The second is an article I wrote at the start of March about negotiation:
<http://ka1.us/fxki>

My article goes into a bit more depth on identifying how much you're worth and
asking for it.

I hope these help! Congratulations on the job offer!

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falpal85
This sounds about right. I've worked at Google for the last 6 years and
referred several of my colleagues, the vast majority of which were hired and
their experience was horrible. When Google wants to act fast they can, the
main issue is transparency between HR and organizational changes with
corresponding job requisitions (most of which are outdated). I believe this is
changing, but it also seems every week our hiring process changes as well
which makes things much more complicated. Your best bet is knowing someone who
works there and having them refer you to the right people directly. I do this
all the time for people who I don't even know that reach out to me on
Linkedin. Just food for thought.

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goombastic
This is normal. However, if you are dealing with nutty HR, they will use the
numbers you give them to come up with an offer that in the end wont be much
better than the one you currently have. Watch out for "performance based"
bonus schemes, variable pay numbers, and deductions.

Make sure you negotiate on "in hand pay." Insist on better "in hand pay," that
ways they end up negotiating on your terms.

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triviatise
You might want to look at various sites that publish salary ranges for
companies. I have no idea how accurate they are, but this site
([http://www.payscale.com/research/US/Employer=Google,_Inc./Sa...](http://www.payscale.com/research/US/Employer=Google,_Inc./Salary)
) says that a sr. soft eng at google is 109-150

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dmlevi
If you have time read the very small book "Getting to Yes". It teaches you how
to negotiate. I took negotiotaing while getting my MBA and this was our text.

My advice to you is to come in high. IF you come in at current salary plus
20%, that doesnt leave much room to get more than 20% (this also depends on
your salary). Create what is called a "BATNA". Basically your best
alternative. Always keep that in mind. So you come in high and start to slowly
work your way down heading towards the point when you walk away from the
offer. My guess is that point is below your current salary. Aim high and keep
your numbers consistent when you decrease. Goodluck.

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petervandijck
Just ask your friend how much you should be making at Google, he works there
after all. Then try to get that.

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phlux
Get a counter from Facebook.

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throwaway2112
I'm not sure the timing would work (recruiter said they'd have an offer by the
end of the week - and the offer expires after 5 business days).

Though I've definitely heard good things about what a Facebook counteroffer
does to an existing Google offer :-)

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davidu
Offers don't expire when you are out fishing next week and won't be
reachable... _cough_.

No seriously, offers don't expire if you communicate with them.

If it's Google -- They took a lot longer than 5 days to decide they want you,
you can tell them it will take you longer than 5 days to evaluate their offer.

