
Booze, Sex, and the Dark Art of Dealmaking in China (2015) - johnny313
http://www.chinafile.com/reporting-opinion/postcard/bro-code
======
underlines
I'm a foreign CTO working in Bangkok and being fully fluent in Thai showed me
that it's exactly the same practice in SEA regions: Got to close a deal with a
government official? They'll head to the "bathtub massage" area Huai Kwang.
Need to bond with a local Business man? Deal closes there as well. Bond with
male work mates? On to the bathtub place! Everyone knows it, there's jokes
about it and this particular business has licences to run legally, even though
prostitution is normally illegal in Thailand. I turned down several invites to
such activities and got the usual gay jokes behind my back.

~~~
duxup
Heck in the US 20 years ago, a coworker of mine was assigned to a job where
his first account was some old school east coast bank. One night dude calls
"OMG man we are at dinner and the sales guy didn't show up so it's just me and
them and they want to hit the strip clubs a couple blocks away after this." I
had no good advice as I was a n00b too so I told him to call his boss. He was
told "keep them happy" so he spent thousands on dinner, drinks, and strippers
for most of the night on the corporate card (cash for the strippers...).

He was sure he would get fired or something. The following Monday his boss
told him he heard that everyone had a great time, gave him a pat on the back
and noted "I probabbly should have told you they party pretty hard."

~~~
rixrax
~20 years ago I was a sales engineer to the extremely good salesman. We had
submitted a substantial quote followed by invoice to one of the tier I
carriers in US, but for reason or the other, it wouldn't get processed / paid.
Rumor has it that the (now retired) VP blocking the payment at carrier in
roundabout ways told to our sales exec that he will be going to Toronto at a
given date and that he has never spent a night with sisters. Allegedly
arrangements were made, and as soon as he was back, that PO was approved.

Till today, I do not know if that's how it expired. The salesman never
admitted to anything. And in all ways he was one the most organized and
professional salesman I've ever worked with. And in that vain, I want to
believe this is how it also happened.

~~~
dannyw
Never spent a night with sisters? Just to clarify, was that literal?

~~~
erikb
I think sister here means prostitute, but I'm not native English either.

~~~
fouc
He wanted two prostitutes that were related, i.e. sisters.

------
zergleader
Pretty much. One of the most strange things I experience in America is the
insistence that America is somehow the most sexist / racist country. Oh boy!

When the current generation of social justice from America floods its banks
and arrives in Asia there is going to be an ugly reckoning.

I think the idea that many of China’s troubles (corruption / pollution /
freedom reductions) are a byproduct of the extreme rapid move from poverty to
wealth combined with an equally extreme arrival of wealth inequality is true.
You simply can’t hit the gas pedal and accelerate 40 years into the future in
one decade without creating the potential for major discontent.

But socially speaking, the era of progressivism America has experienced has
not yet leaked out but it will.

American millenials think they are oppressed, they have no idea what the rest
of the world finds normal. This article is a great example of how the rest of
the world is currently socially caliberated compared to the USA.

The truth is that America is a paradise of social justice.

~~~
noobermin
It's always easy to tell someone they have it good when we all live on a power
law. Just tell them to look a notch down and see someone half their height,
just as long as they don't look up at you and see your waist. The entire
structure of the American economy and the attitudes it uses to keep its
subjects in check are of this form.

In many ways, the US is advanced but in many ways it also lags other places,
namely in Europe. In other ways it's better. I think if you take an every day
liberal or social justice advocate, you'll find that they may be surprised at
the level of racism and sexism that pervades other countries, specifically in
Asia. But, I don't think you'll find that attitude from activists, academics
and others who try to be informed about these things. They know it is the
structure of things as they stand and as you said, there is a strong chance
that these issues will become important elsewhere as they too find they must
deal with the intrinsic contradictions in their society.

~~~
zavi
A premise that there's less racism in Europe than in the US is just wrong (I'm
a European who've spent a lot of time in the US for work and school). US is
the PC capital of the world (for better or worse). There's just not a whole
lot of non-white folks in Europe even now.

~~~
vetinari
I guess you haven't been to UK or France recently ;)

Being PC doesn't mean not being racist. They will keep their thoughts to
themselves and will not let you know directly. But behind your back, oh boy...

~~~
noobermin
To be fair, that's a common thing in the US too, it's just people can't be
overt about it.

~~~
devonkim
You mean “until recently” right? People have stopped even using “I’m not
racist but...” when that was much more common a few years or so back. The
political climate and subtle language has changed everywhere. It’s tough to
notice as a white person but if you’re in the South and aren’t white the
differences are obvious even once you go into suburbs.

------
motohagiography
The article really isn't about the vice. The more interesting part of this
conversation is, how do you know you can trust someone? The value of most
agreements is not in their letter, but their spirit, and you need to know if
you are dealing with someone who will honor the spirit of an agreement.

Probably the most meaningful aspect of this article, "But the purpose of these
visits isn’t a good time. It’s to cement business and personal ties, binding
men together through the power of taboo and mutual self-exposure, or at least
the pretense of it. It lets them judge that the others involved in a potential
deal are men of the same stripe."

And one paragraph down, " As one saying that went rapidly around the Chinese
Internet in 2011 put it, “It’s better to do one bad thing with your boss than
a hundred good things for your boss. Over time, this can extend to an actual
exchange of what criminologist Diego Gambetta in his pioneering Codes of the
Underworld calls “hostage-information,” mutual knowledge of each party’s sins
that acts as a powerful guarantee neither will break their agreements."

And, "But vice serves as a kind of screen, weeding out the rare few who might
have moral qualms about future dealings. It tells both sides that they’re
playing by the same rules."

It's not just vice. There is an aspect of these transgression trust rituals in
pretty much every organization I have seen.

What I read in this article is that vice is collateral in a relationship,
where if there is no collateral, there is no basis on which to trust someone.

~~~
cpncrunch
But as the article points out, it's not actually a good way of building trust:

"I told my husband that if he cheats on his wife only after a year, he will
cheat us. He said no way, he’s a good guy, we can trust him!” She looked a
little smug. “Now this man owes us a lot of money that he won’t pay.”"

It's completely true...if you get the impression that someone has dubious
morals, they will just as easily cheat you. I never trust anyone in business
who even hints at breaking the law or cheating on anything.

~~~
motohagiography
Arguably that particular situation was more a symptom of bringing a paramour
to where spouses would be present, demonstrating disrespect for his clients
relationships (and in turn his clients). That was the tell.

People generally don't cheat their in-groups, and these vice collateral
rituals establish in-group status. Showing disrespect to the values of a group
is a good indicator your perceived cost of defection is low. Signalling you
don't value your collateral is a good way to put off counterparties.

The guy showing up with a mistress showed not that he was necessarily immoral,
but rather, that he didn't value the esteem of his clients or vice collateral
he had established.

~~~
cpncrunch
In my own experience, people who have dubious morals are not good for
business.

>People generally don't cheat their in-groups

Perhaps "less likely". My own experience is that people who try to bend the
rules are less intelligent, and less likely to be successful. This seems to be
backed up by research:

[http://uk.businessinsider.com/intelligence-and-
cheating-2017...](http://uk.businessinsider.com/intelligence-and-
cheating-2017-10)

Of course, this may not work in China, if things are still the same as
described in the article.

------
mc32
AFAIK, many foreigners [read: other Asians as well as a sprinkling of non-
Asians] (as well nationals from outside a city but who do business in said
city) who are married have either "second wives[1]" in these alternate city
offices or they have their marriages die in said places.

It has some intriguing aspects, such as the children of the "first wife" are
often seen as more legitimate. Also often the wives tolerate each other. And
more[2] in this abstract.

[1] in most cases it's hetero males, ergo the wives part. I believe one of the
(perh former) chiefs of Foxconn [from TW] had several "second wives".

[2]journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/1097184X11412171

~~~
patrickg_zill
Yes, the first family has more status and usually will be the ones that get
the bulk of the inherited wealth.

It seems to be sort of expected that once you reach a certain level in your
business life, you will get a mistress.

This is so prevalent in the Philippines that the family law concerning whether
or not you can use the last name of your father is explicitly spelled out.

~~~
paulie_a
I wouldn't want the last name of someone that is expected to and has a
mistress regardless of their level in business... They dishonored that name.

~~~
maehwasu
In the Philippines, people would think you were a massive loser if you
achieved business success and _didn 't_ have mistresses.

~~~
paulie_a
I'd rather be considered a loser with honor than a cheater with success. I
have previously declined business because of the persons extramarital affairs.
If they can't respect the single most important relationship in their life, I
doubt they will respect our business relationship. they are not worth doing
business with.

------
mhroth
I'm surprised at that amount of surprise in this thread. I have a good friend
who is (was) in sales. He had to get out once he realised that he'd turned
into a full-blown alcoholic and that he'd wouldn't be able to do business if
he at all tried to slow down. Heavily dependent on the industry though.

------
PakG1
_A few female entrepreneurs, however, explicitly reject the values pushed by
businessmen. “One of my husband’s business friends got married just two years
ago,” explained Li, in her early 40s, who co-owns a steel business with her
husband, “We went to his wedding. But when we hosted an event last year, he
came with a young girl who was obviously his mistress. I told my husband that
if he cheats on his wife only after a year, he will cheat us. He said no way,
he’s a good guy, we can trust him!” She looked a little smug. “Now this man
owes us a lot of money that he won’t pay.”_

As women get more powerful in society, they'll stand up a bit more for
themselves and their gender. I recall reading an article that I can't find
about women working in South Korea. It's difficult for them to get promoted to
senior positions because they're often not interested in bringing their
customers or business partners to strip clubs and the like, as it makes for an
uncomfortable work experience. But the same article quotes men who say they're
more comfortable working with people with whom they share dark secrets and
experiences.

You can totally see that reason not flying over time if women become more
powerful, similar to the woman surnamed Li. After some time, Li probably won't
only speak up, she'll probably have more influence over decisions too.

~~~
2muchcoffeeman
I would not trust any person who cheated on their spouse either.

Nor would I want to hang out with colleagues at a strip club if we were not
friends outside of work.

I don’t think this is some gender thing. Maybe be men are more likely to be
coerced into doing these things. But I think they’re having fun.

~~~
Consultant32452
>I would not trust any person who cheated on their spouse either.

I would be careful about that, because that group includes the likes of Martin
Luther King, Jr., Stephen Hawking, Einstein, etc. Don't get me wrong, I'm
inclined to feel the same way, and have ended personal relationships when I
found out someone had cheated on their spouse, but some of history's greatest
figures cheated on their spouse.

~~~
cm2012
Trustworthy =/ World changing.

People can have a net positive on the world and still regularly backstab
acquaintances. See Steve Jobs.

~~~
Consultant32452
I think, generally speaking, there are very few people who would consider
Martin Luther King Jr., George Washington, etc. as "untrustworthy." Some
historians suggest that "Honest Abe Lincoln" cheated on his wife with two men.

What could trustworthy mean if historical archetypes of honesty and great
morality are not considered trustworthy?

~~~
bmarkovic
> What could trustworthy mean if historical archetypes of honesty and great
> morality are not considered trustworthy?

What do the two concepts have in common at all?

Trustworthy means he will not screw me over if, say, I were to borrow him
money. That simply has nothing to do with "who the person" is but only with
"what he is like in his personal relationships". Business relationships are
very personal and greatly dependent on one's personality.

In fact, the "greater" the person (in those historical, societal senses of the
word) I'd actually be biased to trust them less even without any knowledge of
their otherwise untrustiness.

------
forkLding
I see this as an East Asian phenomenon, I believe Koreans and Japanese do this
to a certain degree as well as certain other East Asian groups. I've heard
Russians do bathhouse deals as well although I could be wrong and there is
also the finance sector's strip club visits with their clientele that I've
heard of ([https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-12-12/it-s-
clos...](https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-12-12/it-s-closing-time-
for-toronto-s-strip-clubs)).

It seems so weird to see people have to do things just to do business
deals/sales all over and I'm curious as to even why. What advantage does it
hold over normal sales?

~~~
tetromino_
Russians do bathhouse/sauna deals without sex (most of the time). In Russian
culture, bathhouses/saunas are a very traditional safe place for a group of
same-sex friends to socialize and get drunk together. And naturally a lot of
unofficial political and business discussion happens in saunas too.

~~~
Torminguar
Same here in Finland, although it is mostly a joke that has some corruption
undertones. But it still happens.

------
DanielBMarkham
This article reminded me of a primatologist reporting on a social behavior of
a group of bonobos.

I speculate that sex as social norming behavior is something many in the west
are far-removed from. The heavy drinking is still present -- alcohol seems to
lubricate anything -- but the pressure for sexual activities isn't anywhere
near as strong here as it is in other places.

We commonly think of sex as romantic, even a quick fun-filled romp. We don't
think of it very often as being a group social sorting event. Fascinating.
Thanks for the link!

------
crypt1d
is it just me or the amount of bigotry in the comments here is ridiculous?

some people do business differently, get over it. Not everyone agrees with the
western "politically correct" approach to life, and that's ok.

~~~
donquichotte
Maybe it is you. From TFA:

"“The more guys, the less safe the girl is. When there are other men in the
room [for sex], it’s like the men are competing with each other, and they get
rougher, so the girls can get really hurt.“"

Not much need for bigotry to see that if people get "really hurt" in an inter-
company bonding event, something must be wrong.

~~~
tomp
I'm sure the prostitutes knew what they were signing up for.

~~~
SolarNet
Like they have a choice? Did you see the part where it's basically impossible
for women to succeed in business as any average man would because of this
system?

~~~
matz1
Woman can use their sexuality to succeed.

~~~
Broken_Hippo
Sure, but so can men. People don't assume men do, though - but the'll assume a
woman that does well has put in time on her back.

~~~
gbersac
Really ? Never heard about it.

~~~
Broken_Hippo
I'm pretty sure I've seen it in movie or tv shows a few times. I've personally
seen a man use his looks to get ahead - this was in a company that had many
more women than men. And I'm going to guess that it happens with gay men as
well.

------
baybal2
This is the shit that the "Laoban" culture is, a culture of middle aged looser
type officials - it is everywhere where the touch of communist "culture"
reached. This shit started with party members, and state companies from North
East, then it spread like a virus to everywhere where people from the region
were hired in any much high position.

I'm not surprised that Westerners fail to perceive the essence of the it —
this is an act of collective humiliation of junior employees who are made
passive spectators of those disgusting orgies. It is a sublime message to his
underlings — be my loyal shoeshiner, and maybe one day I will elevate you to a
position where you can do this too.

Those middle age nobodies rarely if ever attend brothels just by themselves,
the whole point for them doing so is to drag their subordinates into it,
making them a part of the "humiliation pyramid." There is no "oiling of the
deal" element here.

------
Taniwha
I do occasional business in China and Taiwan, the sex thing has never come up
... But threating, drinking and general socialising around business in
Chinese, and more generally in Asian culture is something that I think is
really healthy ...

In the west we negotiate a deal, maybe voices get raised a bit, people argue,
we do a deal, people go away a bit pissed ...

In China all that arguing still happens but after we go out and socialise, we
drink and eat together, and we become friends so we can work together on this
thing we've agreed to do together

As I said I think the Chinese way, at least the way I've experienced, is more
healthy

~~~
sumedh
> the sex thing has never come up

probably because the other person knew/sensed that you are not interested?

~~~
Taniwha
Or possibly because our hot shot Mandarin speaking negotiator isn't a guy ...

Or in another case, when I do business there on my own because my excellent
usual Chinese buyer/facilitator is also not a guy

But also I suspect that while that sort of may be common it's not universal

------
simplecomplex
Sounds fun! America is so boring and uptight.

------
TangoTrotFox
I think this article skirts about one issue without ever really stating it,
and it sums everything so much more logically and cleanly. In 'regular life'
people tend to be fake. They say what think they're supposed to say and act
how they think they're supposed to act.

Alcohol, strippers come prostitutes, and other such fun do a good job of
removing the social inhibitions in people. It's not about some sort of secret
mutual blackmail or whatever ( _which is also not to say that does not happen_
) - it's just tearing down the social barriers that people put up. And this
most certainly is in no way whatsoever unique to China.

Most people you meet you think you know, you will never really know. A bit of
vice changes this for reasons that I do not think can be so easily explained
as the article attempts to do. The point is that it does.

------
cm2012
I'm glad that East Asia is slowly, but surely, becoming less sexist over time.
You can see it in Korean dramas, which are very popular across east asia and
way less accepting than TV used to be of this kind of thing. The article also
mentioned real pushback from the Chinese government, which is great.

------
kelukelugames
In an episode of Billions, they go to a strip club for some full contact lap
dances. I met a Wall Street I-banker who went on and on about hooking up with
strippers. I wonder how common this is still in the US.

------
Animats
San Francisco has the Gold Club for that.[1]

[1] [https://www.forbes.com/sites/ryanmac/2015/07/14/gold-club-
te...](https://www.forbes.com/sites/ryanmac/2015/07/14/gold-club-tech-lunch-
spot-strip-club-yelp-san-francicso/#7f9434b5314c)

~~~
erikb
Forbes literally spent 5 minutes now to save my cookie settings. Nice.

------
miga
Similar report on US or North America deal making would probably involve much
more drugs, and shooting ranges.

It seems that while no less false, Asia is much safer place.

------
greggman
is it all that different in the USA? It's certainly the stereotype we see in
movies for wall street. Not having worked there I have no first hand
experience. When I ask friends that have they tell me "oh the stories I could
tell" but they don't actually tell.

~~~
ryandrake
Surely in the past, even at seemingly boring engineering companies. You used
to hear about all kinds of stuff going on in the office. People getting
blackout drunk at company Christmas parties, drugs in the restroom, co-workers
banging each other in the conference rooms.. then all of a sudden, you didn’t
hear about it anymore. Whoosh, it was gone! I entered the workplace as this
stuff seemed to be dying down and just missed the party. Like jumping into the
ocean just as the unstoppable crushing wave of political correctness slammed
ashore, washing away the shenanigans and leaving only sterile, gray, cubicles,
thicker “code of conduct” books, and HR helplines. Maybe it’s for the better.
Things are obviously much more inclusive for professional women and non-
drinkers/smokers, which is good. But at the same time I think we lost
something.

~~~
pastage
Partying hard is away to bond and form a brotherhood of exclusiveness. It's a
relief not having to bother with that anymore, it just leads to misery in my
opinion. Sure that brotherhood feeling can feel great, but it's so easy to
take advantage of if you know anything about group dynamics, just takes one
psychopath or an experienced player.

I'm really glad alcohol isn't an requirement anymore.

~~~
akudha
There are other ways to bond than partying. I've never had a drop of alcohol
in my life, I don't even go to christmas parties. And for the past year, I am
working remote. Still, ended up making a few friends from work, despite not
being the "fun" guy.

I too am glad alcohol isn't a requirement anymore, though I still get weird
looks.

------
qaq
This is fairly common for Wall Street too, so lets not pretend it's not
happening here.

------
deepGem
“Once two men share a woman, they’re brothers.”

Is this for real ? WTF

------
oceanman888
Can we add (NSFW) for this? I know it is obvious but still.

~~~
pnw_hazor
Sounds like it is SFW at a lot a places in China and SEA.

~~~
chairmanwow
They are talking about the article itself. You wouldn’t want to click on this
at work because of the picture of the naked erotic dancer featured.

~~~
tempestn
Pretty sure your parent knows that and was making a joke. (IMO a funny one,
for what it's worth.)

------
dogruck
Americans don’t like to acknowledge that other cultures have different
aaproaches to business. Why is the implication is that these practices are
wrong?

~~~
cm2012
Many men are married and this stuff is frowned on for married men everywhere,
including east asia. Also, it makes things incredibly awkward (to say the
least) for professional women.

~~~
oceanman888
Can confirm this, some people just chose to play mobile legend(a very popular
mobile game in china) with the girls to escape the awkwardness.

~~~
dogruck
This fact is mentioned in the article.

------
hungerstrike
Oh no! Not Booze and Sex!! The humanity!

People who complain about "bro culture" won't be happy until everybody (and I
mean everybody) is exactly like them...bland.

------
_pmf_
So unlike the clean and rational business decision making process in the
gloriously enlightened West.

------
danielku98
Why is hacker news still posting articles from 2015. It is less of a case than
it was 3 years ago.

