
What happens to all the Asian-American overachievers when the test-taking ends? - gamble
http://nymag.com/news/features/asian-americans-2011-5/
======
bluekite2000
How I did it:

1\. quit my corporate software engineering job (it was slowly killing my soul)

2\. went surfing in maui for 2 weeks then bali for a month. when there was no
waves, there were parties on Kuta beach

3\. opened an English bookstore in Southeast Asia(highly risky considering I
knew nothing about the local market or government censorship) Everyone I knew
thought I was crazy. But I DIDNT care! For the first time in my life I was
doing something meaningful, to me and to society.

4\. met tons of babes (locals, other asian babes, europeans, americans) by
going out every single night for 1 year straight (averaging 4 5 clubs per
nite). Plus did tons of traveling around asia, south america and north
america. Trust me you are forced to socialize when EVERYONE at the hostel was
happy go lucky young backpackers. And the bookstore also attracted lots of
girls (which was NOT the reason why I opened the store :)

5\. Now I m back in Silicon Valley and guess what it is still the same (nice
guys toiling away in front of their laptops while life, and hot babes, are
passing them by) And I smile to myself. It is me who has changed!

~~~
roel_v
How old were you when you did this? It sound like you were beyond the typical
early 20's backpacker age - weren't you the weird old guy around? (I feel like
this in many situations already, I'm 31).

~~~
bluekite2000
I was 27. I quit after 3 years out of grad school. But you are right. I dont
think its just age. It is also the differences in the backgrounds. You just
need to adapt and mirror the other person. It is easier said than done but my
social skills improved a lot because of that.

------
aphexairlines
> “If you’re East Asian, you need to attend a top-tier university to land a
> good high-paying gig. Even if you land that good high-paying gig, the white
> guy with the pedigree from a mediocre state university will somehow move
> ahead of you in the ranks simply because he’s white.”

That's false. The mediocre guy moves ahead of white geeks too. The problem, as
with white geeks, is that Asian-Americans disproportionately aren't learning
how to bs, how to promote themselves and their products, how to become
salesmen. See Jobs vs Wozniak, etc.

~~~
bluekeybox
> The problem, as with white geeks, is that Asian-Americans disproportionately
> aren't learning how to bs, how to promote themselves and their products

Actually it is the attitude like this -- the attitude that equates self-
promotion with bullshit -- that causes problems for people with an engineering
mindset. Not only does such attitude (1) show that you consider yourself
superior (bravo) to people who are doing the hard and often boring job of
marketing/campaigning, but it also underscores (2) that you, at a fundamental
level, do not value communicating with other people, and therefore do not
value other people (marketing, at its basic, is communication), and (3) that
you will not make a good leader because you lack the social intelligence
needed to observe others, learn from your observations, and to pay attention
to the details of your and your company's public image.

Social skills are not bullshit; they are intelligence just like everything
else. The fact that you only know how to do math does not show that you are
intelligent; it only shows that you are specialized. The fact that women
prefer men who are good at socializing is, ironically, direct Darwinian
selection for intelligence.

~~~
mquander
I reject that set of skills not because I don't value communicating, but
because I think it's a terrible way of communicating. The world has an
unbelievable, enormous, tedious, completely indefensible surplus of self-
promotion and marketing. Marketing fills every public space and enters every
public discussion. What good is it? Look, you have made entire hard and boring
jobs of it. Are you doing something useful? Who is it useful to besides you?

Buying into an obnoxiously self-promotional attitude is defecting in a giant
Prisoner's Dilemma. It's enriching you only by taking away from others, and at
the expense of filling the world with crap. It serves only to make my life and
others' a little worse as I filter through "good self-promoters" to find
people who are good at ordinary, interesting, non-self-promotional things, who
do and say things I actually want to pay attention to. So no, I don't think
people who engage in a bunch of self-promotion are stupid or inferior, just
selfish and shameful. I will leave money on the table all day in order to not
deal with the crap.

Hey, it's relevant to the article:

 _Having glimpsed just how unacceptable the world judges my demeanor, could I
too strive to make up for my shortcomings? Practice a shit-eating grin until
it becomes natural? Love the world twice as hard?

I see the appeal of getting with the program. But this is not my choice.
Striving to meet others’ expectations may be a necessary cost of assimilation,
but I am not going to do it._

~~~
potatolicious
How is self-promotion enriching yourself at the expense of others?

"Hey everyone, I'm really good at iOS development." <\-- How is this at all
harmful to anyone, and how is it bullshit, or making the world worse?

This illustrates an incredibly entitled view held by some geeks - that it is
the responsibility of everyone else to come and discover how awesome you are.
That is, to be blunt, a load of bullshit worse than any bullshit crockery the
worst MBA could come up with.

If you are good at something, how is anyone supposed to know about it unless
you make it a point to tell them? How is it someone's fault that they bothered
to let their abilities be known to the community at large, and that they got
chosen over you?

Quite the opposite in fact - self-promotion can (and does) do more good for
the world than quietly assuming that people will realize your brilliance in
your silence. Look at all of the code blogs out there offering insight and
advice on our industry and our craft - each one authored by someone who is no
doubt using it as a tool for self-promotion. Demonstrating their abilities and
knowledge by giving it away for free, how is that taking away from others?

~~~
mquander
Consider the following three approaches of communicating that you are good at
iOS development:

1) You write interesting blog posts about iOS development and discuss it with
other people working on related projects.

2) You write apps and open-source them or publish them and their utility
yields lots of great reviews.

3) You write some mediocre apps, but you make sure to tell people stories
about how good you are at iOS development, and you network your way to a piece
in every tech blog to advertise your apps.

The difference between 1, 2, and 3 is that your actions in #1 and #2 are
actually evidence that you _really are_ good at iOS development, whereas your
actions in #3 are not evidence of anything! Nobody with a healthy sense of
skepticism "knows" that you are good at something because you make a point to
tell them about it, because it doesn't take any skill (in that thing) to do
the telling. Someone is supposed to know because you _do it_ and you did a
_good job_ and your work _helps_ other people. This apparently sensible
approach would work even better if everyone else in the world were not
screaming from the rooftops how good they were.

The code blog author writing useful advice is great. That same blog author
submitting all his posts to Hacker News contributes nothing more to his
greatness.

~~~
tobtoh
> The code blog author writing useful advice is great. That same blog author
> submitting all his posts to Hacker News contributes nothing more to his
> greatness.

Submitting his blog to HN is part of communicating - and - spreading his
advice to an even wider audience. And it's these sort of people who develop a
following, influence and success.

You seem to be under some misguided belief that technical excellence is
mutually exclusive to communication skills. On the contrary, what the other
posters have been saying to your post is that you need both to be truly
successful - they are both important and both need development.

A marketer who has nothing worthwhile to market is no better than a technical
person who can't communicate his achievements.

~~~
fragmede
> A marketer who has nothing worthwhile to market is no better than a
> technical person who can't communicate his achievements.

I disagree; working code speaks for itself. The real point is that the
marketer and technical person are complementary.

~~~
tobtoh
Code only speaks for itself to other coders. If all you seek is to mix with
other programmers or work on a small self-contained project that is purely
code based, then that is fine (I say this in a non-derogatory manner).

But most things in life are not self-contained - you have to mix and interact
with people who are not subject matter experts - and with no communication
skills, or a belief that 'people should recognise good code when they see it',
you'll never go as far as you could if you had accepted that self-promotion is
a necessary part of interacting with others.

~~~
exit
he specifically said working code. the software actualized by code DOES speak
for itself to anyone capable of using it. self promotion is bullshit.

~~~
tobtoh
To a degree yes it does. But an inability to self-promote will, in most cases,
limit your influence/reach. Good example is Chrome/Safari/Firefox/IE - they
all do roughly the same things, for most people, there is little difference
between them.

Google realises the need to self-promote ... they just released their 'Dear
Sophie' ad pitched at a wider audience than just the tech community.

> the software actualized by code DOES speak for itself to anyone capable of
> using it.

And this is the point that one of the parent posters made - this attitude of
'people should be able to tell how brilliant my code/software is' is really
arrogant (the parent posters words, not mine). Your customers/users will
almost never be more knowledgable about your software than you are - so by not
self-promoting, you will actually be losing customers/influence/users because
they will pass on your products if they don't understand the benefit to them.
This applies to the most brilliant of customers to the dumbest.

~~~
exit
any yet the self-promotion of browsers has NOTHING to do with their quality!

ms did a great job of self promoting ie and it's a piece of shit.

firefox gained a huge market share because the actual experience of the code
is brilliant, not because of any self promotion.

all self promotion does is add a layer of noise over figuring out what to use.
that is the ONLY reason google advertises chrome - _because all the marketing
scum out there has made it necessary_.

~~~
mbesto
So now we've reached the conclusion that marketing in of itself is bullshit?
The evolution of marketing has lead us to cause the so called "scum" to exist
because of how traditionally effective marketing has been. Now that it's so
widespread its becoming increasingly ineffective. Thus, enters the scum, or in
other words more creative ways to interrupt your attention.

The techie (or Silicon Valley) view of the economic world, while fruitful, is
a very meritocratic. We only believe that cream of the crop always rises to
the top. Unfortunately this is not how the world works and the OP's suggestion
about self-promotion is evidence of such (read - Jobs v Wozniak). We read
stories from Steve Blank and PG about "just make a good product and the rest
will follow". While good advice, I can count on my hand the number of products
that "suck" that are way more successful than the ones that don't suck. It's
the reason SAP, MS, and Oracle still exist.

Why are techies like this? I believe its because we are extremely analytical
pattern hunters - we hate replication and deficiencies. Marketing to us
represents an inefficiency in the system because it doesn't represent 1 or 0.

~~~
bluekeybox
> Why are techies like this? I believe its because we are extremely analytical
> pattern hunters - we hate replication and deficiencies. Marketing to us
> represents an inefficiency in the system because it doesn't represent 1 or 0

Actually it's not just that. True, techies recognize that marketing represents
an inefficiency in the system, but, lacking social skills, techies are naive
enough to think that they can _improve_ the system. They can't, and they don't
understand why (but look ma, I made a goooood product, why won't anyone buy
it?). They assume that everyone has plenty of time on their hands to read the
latest reviews on the product they buy, to compare specifications, and then to
trial-test the product themselves, all the while being careful so as "not to
fall into a marketing scam." No, most people are not like that. Most people
make snap judgements in a split-second about whether or not to buy a product
and if they feel like they spend too much time deciding then they simply move
on. Techies specifically choose to ignore things like public image and social
status (actually they replace the status ladder by their own one), and
consequently suffer from it.

------
rayiner
It's become pretty popular these days to devalue asian immigrant culture, but
most of the commentary misses the point. The intro piece to the article states
exactly the facts that "Tiger Moms" are concerned about: Asians are more
educated and make more money on average.

Asian parenting is about downside management. Yeah your kid might not end up a
top CEO, but he's also less likely to end up as a plumber. There are worse
things than ending up in middle management at IBM making six figures...

Also, as someone who went through the whole "asian education treadmill", I'll
make two observations:

1) The point about Stuyvesant is dead-on. My high school was also a public
magnet school and the culture was the same way: the people at the top were
both pretty and smart. However, the take-away isn't really what what the
author makes it out to be. The popular white kids weren't gunning any less
hard than the asian kids. They socialized then went home and studied just as
hard. The problem isn't that asian parents emphasize hard work in lieu of
socialization, it's that they just emphasize hard work, largely b/c coming
from a different culture socialization isn't something they can really help
their kids with.

2) The PWC example is also dead on, but again, the takeaway is different than
what the other concludes. In a law, accounting, financial firm, you don't get
pigeon-holed for being a hard worker. The white guy who makes partner (or
managing director or whatever) works every bit as hard as the asian guy, but
plays the politics on top of that. Being "too good for bitch work" is a sure
way to get yourself fired at a law firm or an investment bank. At the same
time, schmoozing with a partner to get better assignments is absolutely not at
odds with working hard and being the guy who can get things done.

These articles consistently manage to misunderstand both asian culture and
american culture. Succeeding in America does not require rejecting asian work
ethic. Americans work as hard as anyone. That high school football star has a
dad who pushes him to practice just as hard as any "Tiger Mom" would.
Succeeding in America does require a forthrightness and social perceptiveness
that many asians choose not to develop, but that is absolutely not at odds
with an asian upbringing.

------
wallflower
A friend from high school - he got top grades, got into a great school, got a
MD _and_ a PhD, married a beautiful, smart wife, became a surgeon, and had a
healthy son.

After all of this, he went back to his grandfather overseas (who was very old)
and told him, "I _did_ everything you told me to do".

~~~
DrJ
so he didn't want to be a Doctor? He didn't want a wife? who was smart?
beautiful? He didn't want to be wealthy? He didn't want a family?

I don't get what you are trying to say here... Maybe you are trying to say
that he wasn't happy? If you get all of that and you aren't happy, what will
make you happy? being unemployed? being famous? maybe infamous?

~~~
pyre
With the emphasis on 'did,' I would assume that the grandfather was still
acting like he hadn't done enough and, "I _did_ everything that you asked me
to," is the rebuttal to that. Sort of like this scary Asian dad that my wife
encountered on the subway once (yelling at his ~7 year old kid):

    
    
      This is not perfect! It must be perfect! Not 80%.
      Not 90%. That's not perfect! Must be perfect!

~~~
wallflower
The gist was that his grandfather had pushed him very, very hard to study and
work very, very hard from a very early age. And he was finally able to tell
his grandfather that he could no longer tell him what to do/order him to work
hard - he had done it all - he had done everything that the grandfather had
pushed him to do. It is a sense of closure, more than anything but still very
significant. My friend had ulcers in high school, if that is any indication of
how hard he studied.

~~~
phishphood
Don't mean to hijack the thread but ulcers have nothing to do with how hard
you study or how stressfull your life is; it is a misconception that really
needs to be put to rest.

Most ulcers are caused by h. pylori infection (and sometimes by over-
medication in childrens cases).

Your friend most likely ate unshashed fruits/vegetables overseas, or had
access to someone who did

~~~
skunkworks
We all have h. pylori in our stomachs, but only some of us have ulcers. This
is because stress plays a role in weakening the stomach's defenses, giving h.
pylori a chance to create ulcers.

~~~
jgamman
i believe the nobel prize committee begs to differ:
[http://nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/medicine/laureates/2005/p...](http://nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/medicine/laureates/2005/press.html)

~~~
streptomycin
> Helicobacter pylori is a spiral-shaped Gram-negative bacterium that
> colonizes the stomach in about 50% of all humans.

------
ajkessler
I found the last two sentences to be the most telling part of the whole piece:

>>There is something salutary in that proud defiance. And though the debate
she sparked about Asian-American life has been of questionable value, we will
need more people with the same kind of defiance, willing to push themselves
into the spotlight and to make some noise, to beat people up, to seduce women,
to make mistakes, to become entrepreneurs, to stop doggedly pursuing official
paper emblems attesting to their worthiness, to stop thinking those scraps of
paper will secure anyone’s happiness, and to dare to be interesting.<<

Degrees and certifications certainly don't make you interesting. But neither
does wallowing in your own self-pity while yelling "fuck the system".

Passion makes people interesting. It doesn't matter if you're passionate about
making pork buns or writing code. Huang (pork bun guy) sure sounds a hell of a
lot more interesting than the author does. The best way to find your passion
is to get out there and do things. Set goals. Accomplish them. If you focus on
being miserable and espousing things like "fuck humility and hard work", how
the hell are you ever going to be passionate about anything. And, so, how the
hell are you ever going to be interesting?

Yang makes some decent points about Asian culture, but his idea that he's
somehow the squeaky wheel or the loudest duck is laughable. He's the miserable
whiny guy who everyone ignores, who decidedly isn't interesting. Guys like
Tony Hsieh, the guys who don't shut up until they accomplish their goals,
they're the only ones who ever get any grease.

------
jinushaun
The fundamental fallacy of this article is that being the founder of the next
Facebook or CEO of a large Fortune 100 company equals success. These Asian
parents simply want their children to do better than they did when they came
to the US, which pretty much means a comfortable white collar job over a back-
breaking blue collar job.

~~~
potatolicious
But what is doing better?

As an Asian immigrant myself I have no shortage of people in my circles who
are absolutely _miserable_ being upper-middle class white collar workers.

Asian upbringings do not optimize for happiness, nor even physical well-being.
It seeks to maximize income - and it does quite well at that.

We're taught from a young age that we must work hard in school. Why? So we can
test well and make it into a good high school (it works that way in much of
Asia). Then we must study hard - to make it into a good college. Then we must
study ever harder - to excel and be considered for a well-paying job.

Then the progression stops, and the advice runs out. All your life the entire
raison d'etre for you has been The Next Step, but now there is none. You've
done it, you've hit the end, trumpets are supposed to blare, and... and...

And then what?

You have an entire generation of people who pushed, prodded, and hauled their
entire existence to work hard so they may have a good life - but in that
process they were never taught what a good life _was_.

I found myself in that position going through college. I sacrificed
socialization in exchange for raw academic performance, and found myself
unable to connect with the people around me. I was making six figures out of
college, but had nothing to spend it on, save gadgetry and fast machines -
tools that allowed to bury myself in a world where I wasn't a mostly socially-
retarded 20-something that had stunted social skills, no artistic or creative
inclinations, no hobbies, and a circle consisting mostly of equally lost young
professionals like myself. It's taken every ounce of effort and time (and a
not insignificant sum of money) to start digging myself out of this hole - and
I suppose my warning to people is to never dig that hole in the first place.

If you're going to waste away your teens just so you can waste away your
twenties catching up to the rest of the world, don't.

~~~
LargeWu
About a month ago I was doing some nonprofit work for a local youth
organization, and was working with a 16 year old who was already taking
college level pre-med classes. He explained that he was going to be either a
doctor or an engineer "because, you know, I'm Asian". Someone else later asked
him if he wanted to be a doctor, and he replied "it's sort of the family
business", as though he had no choice in the matter. (his father is a doctor
at a very prestigious clinic).

All the while, he seemed very interested in the development work we were
doing, but being "merely" a web developer would not be an appropriate
profession. I got the feeling that even if he had no interest in medicine or
engineering he felt compelled to pursue one of those careers to satisfy
expectations. I wanted to tell him just to slow down and enjoy being young a
bit, but it wasn't any of my business, and it wouldn't matter anyway. I just
feel bad that this poor kid is going to miss out on some of the best parts of
college because he's too focused on reaching a goal he probably doesn't even
really want.

~~~
lurker19
Arnold Kim got his MD and even practiced for a while before retiring from
medicine to work on Macrumors.com full time.

~~~
zasz
And wouldn't it have been nice if he could have saved himself a decade of the
pain that is medical school, residency, and practice, by leaping into the tech
industry earlier?

It would be one thing if he had been making all his own choices, but Arnold
Kim lost several years of his life strictly due to his parents' misguided
ideas. He very likely could have found the thing he loved sooner without their
overbearance. That's a tragedy.

~~~
arn
I feel obligated to respond, since I was mentioned, though I'm not sure I have
any great insight into the matter.

It's one of those situations in life in which where you end up makes sense
only in retrospect, as all those steps led you to where you are. What would
have happened if I didn't go the pre-med/medschool route? I'm not entirely
sure. I was a computer science guy in college, so absent pursuing a medical
career, I probably would have ended up as a programmer somewhere after college
('96). Maybe I would have gotten rich in the craziness or maybe I would have
been a victim of the .com crash.

I do think that if I was in college in the past few years, the startup culture
and iphone app opportunities would have infected me, and I probably would have
had to make an earlier decision.

Though, if I hadn't gone down the path, I don't think MacRumors.com would
exist, as there was a timing/luck element to it. Not that I think success is
entirely dependent on luck but a matter of taking advantage of circumstances
as they arrive. I got married and had kids during that med school diversion,
so certainly have no regrets there.

As for parental pressure/expectations on kids, it's something I've thought
about especially after becoming a parent. I think as a parent, in many ways,
you try to right the wrongs, fulfill the desires, or fix the challenges when
you grew up. For immigrant parents, financial stability is probably the #1
hurdle they had, so they want their kids to go to college, get a white color
job. That's what they've been struggling with. As someone who grew up
financially stable, and being well off now, my priority for my kids is more of
a focus on happiness and doing what they want. But that's a luxury that you
can afford once financial stability is a given.

------
Jun8
This is one of the best descriptions of minority life in the US (or anywhere
else) that I've read in quite a while.

I wish similar pieces would be written by and embraced by African-Americans.
Sadly whenever such thoughts are expressed, they are met with negativity.

~~~
michaelf
Are you really suggesting that similar pieces haven't been written by African
Americans? To my mind, the first several paragraphs were practically an homage
to Ralph Ellison's "The Invisible Man." And Yang mentions Baldwin by name.

It seems to me that when those authors were writing (and earlier poets like
Langston Hughes), the problems of assimilation and alienation were both more
apparent (as in "WTF!!!") and at the same time more vague (as in "WTF???"). It
demanded the attention of artists. It was the same era that included the most
creative period in the development of Jazz and the Civil Rights Movement
itself. I wonder if Asian-Americans find themselves at something of a similar
juncture.

Ultimately, and unfortunately, I think the direction of African-American
cultural identity ended up following in the direction Yang has set for
himself. Yang says:

"The first step toward self-reform is to admit your deficiencies. Though my
early adulthood has been a protracted education in them, I do not admit mine.
I’m fine. It’s the rest of you who have a problem. Fuck all y’all."

He's obviously a bit tongue-in-cheek here, since earlier he wondered if his
"defiance is just delusional, self-glorifying bullshit that artists have
always told themselves to compensate for their poverty and powerlessness." I'm
sure he's (ironically) comparing himself to African Americans (otherwise, why
the black vernacular "Fuck all y'all"?).

Something he touches on but doesn't really flesh-out is the problem with
defining yourself in the negative -- that is, defining yourself in terms of
things you won't do because you've already established a social identity where
you _aren't that thing_. When he says "I love this hard and unyielding part of
myself more than any other reward the world has to offer a newly brightened
and ingratiating demeanor, and I will bear any costs associated with it," I
hear the the constant refrain in the African-American community to "keep it
real", where what this really means is "don't range widely." And incidentally,
this is also recognized by African-Americans -- see Dave Chappelle's sketch
"When Keeping It Real Goes Wrong."

(btw, I'm an African American software engineer, so issues of race and culture
are unavoidably fascinating to me)

~~~
Jun8
No. My observation was that ( _as a general tendency_ , a lot of exceptions,
of course, exist) self-criticism in the African-American community is usually
met with attacks ranging from "you are hitting below the belt, these are poor,
choice-less people" to the more crude ones along the lines of Uncle Tom-ism
and being an Oreo (compare with OP's "Twinkie").

I haven't read Ellison much but am familiar with Baldwin and the vicious
attacks leveled at him from the black community (coincidence: I was reading
about his years in Turkey just yesterday :
[http://www.dukeupress.edu/Catalog/ViewProduct.php?productid=...](http://www.dukeupress.edu/Catalog/ViewProduct.php?productid=15339)).
Remember how Cosby was vilified for his (somewhat simplistic) remarks about
low-income black families in 2004? Many other examples can be given, I think.

I totally agree with your points, esp. "defining yourself in the negative",
which I observed the case to be with many African-Americans I've met in
college (at work such topics are rarely discussed). Unfortunately, as far as I
can see, negative stereotypes are continuously being glorified and perpetuated
within the community. When I was watching _Waiting for Superman_ I was blown
away by Geoffrey Canada's no-nonsense approach, I think more of that needed.

You, of course, have firsthand experience. It would be great if you can
elaborate on some of these points.

~~~
michaelf
Apologies for unfairly characterizing your statement. And I do agree that
self-criticism in the black community is very typically met with hostility,
and that "negative stereotypes" are perhaps too frequently glorified.

Regarding Cosby's remark about black families, I certainly understand his
sentiment, but I agree it was somewhat simplistic. My father (and my
grandparents) all had a pretty similar view to Cosby's. In the particular
black neighborhood of Philadelphia where he was from, that type of
conservatism was the norm. By the early '70s, several of his friends (along
with him) had graduated from college and moved out of the cities into the
predominantly white suburbs, and this cohort was for the most part extremely
successful. Not everyone managed to get out of the city, though, and it wasn't
because the ones who stayed behind were necessarily lazier or less hard
working (though certainly many of them were). For the most part, the
opportunities just ran out.

With that came, I think, a lot of the anti-assimilationist sentiment you see
today. Yang mentions something similar in his article. When you work your ass
off to excel in all of the culturally approved ways, but nonetheless you are
passed-over for someone who worked half as hard as you, what are you to think?
There's a whole generation of older black men who were stung in this way (and,
as Yang mentions, a whole generation of Asian men in a similar, but largely
better, situation). (And incidentally, I'm speaking about men instead of women
because women face different challenges that I'm not qualified to discuss). In
many ways, I don't think the situation is much different than what lead to
hooliganism in the UK during the '80s.

So is the situation getting worse, better, or staying the same? Economically,
it's a hard time for a lot of people. Kids graduating from college (of any
race) are having a hard time finding jobs. Thirty-somethings who saved up to
buy homes in 2005 are underwater. As global inequalities are being addressed,
global competition is at its highest, particularly for jobs that previously
would have been "entry-level". These are also the sort jobs which are most
prone to nepotism.

Its hard to say what lessons will be drawn from this period. It seems entirely
possible that many of the hardest working, most optimistic young black people
of this generation will find themselves out of work, disillusioned, and
wondering why they didn't just have more fun in high school (and passing that
attitude on to their kids).

BTW, you might (should) say "Don't Asian Americans face the same economic
difficulties? They're employed at the highest rate of any ethnic group in the
country." This is true, of course, and there's a lot to say about that. But I
think this post is already too long, and none of this has been particularly
relevant to hacking, except maybe societal hacking. Maybe I can end with a
question: why don't white kids, generally, work as hard as Asians, especially
when they are being out-competed for valuable educational opportunities?

~~~
Jun8
michaelf, I have to say: you are one of the most eloquent commenters I had a
chance to correspond in HN. I would very much like to continue the discussion
with you, if you want.

------
davidwparker
1 page print version, for convenience:
[http://nymag.com/print/?/news/features/asian-
americans-2011-...](http://nymag.com/print/?/news/features/asian-
americans-2011-5/)

------
spiritomb
It sounds like they are only meta-gaming. They aren't doing anything because
they are genuinely inclined to do so. It is hard to show heart and passion
when your only ambition is to attain a level in society for the sake of
levelling. It's called -> you're trying too hard!

Weird that Asians behave like this given the wealth of zen philosophy in the
east : ‘A good traveller has no fixed plans, and is not intent on arriving.’
~Lao Tzu

~~~
long
Lao Tzu was a Taoist. "zen" refers to Zen Buddhism. The two are completely
different things.

~~~
gruseom
Indeed they are. As I commented on here recently, it's difficult to imagine
Lao Tzu beating disciples with sticks.

Nevertheless the GP raises the interesting question of why the Asian
stereotype is to "attain a level in society for the sake of levelling" when a
wealth of Asian religious traditions teach just the opposite. (Taoism and
Buddhism aren't so different as not to have this in common.) I suspect part of
the answer is that these traditions are not that widely practiced.

~~~
spiritomb
thank you gruseom. Afterall, little-z zen was meant to cast a wide net - not
any specific school of thought. Tzu's quote is zennish, yes?

Addtionally, it should be said that Asians are not the only folks guilty of
this - they're just the best at the meta-game (e.g. preferring to learn about
playing the system over learning about the material itself).

------
kin
This was a very interesting and long read as an Asian American Tiger child
myself. There are things that I agree with and things that I disagree with.
There are a lot of numbers tossed around in the article but definitely not
enough numbers. I can say with confidence that the reason behind Asian
Americans not saturating the CEO population in fortune 500 companies is not
related to how we were raised. Off the top of my head, gather the age and
experience of current fortune 500 CEO's, gather the age of the current
generation of Tiger children, and then you can see where I'm going from there.
One thing is for sure, the author doesn't know what it's like to be a Tiger
child and his interviews feel very one-sided. There's a lot more to this
story.

~~~
ikono
>I can say with confidence that the reason behind Asian Americans not
saturating the CEO population in fortune 500 companies is not related to how
we were raised.

Don't take this the wrong way but why? The age argument, if true, simply says
that the current numbers don't mean anything. It doesn't say anything about
why the future is going to be different though.

I also think the story is one sided in terms of portraying all "Tiger
children" as being socially inept but I do think it did a relatively good job
of presenting the complexity. It was certainly a better article than I was
expecting having read the title here on HN. No doubt it played on a stereotype
but stereotypes do tend to be an exaggeration of the truth rather than
complete fabrications.

~~~
kin
You're right it doesn't say anything about the future. But my point was simply
that he drew conclusions from numbers that shouldn't mean anything yet.

------
mavelikara
Off-topic, but when mainstream American press uses the word "Asian", why does
it typically mean the yellow half of Asia?

~~~
sliverstorm
What do you consider to be the non-yellow half?

~~~
w1ntermute
He's referring to South Asia. The answer to his question is that "Asian"
implies "East Asian" in American English because the majority of Asian
Americans are East Asian. In the UK, "Asian" implies "South Asian" (for the
same reason).

------
bo_Olean
_“Listen,” he told Hong, “I’m going to be honest with you. My generation came
to this country because we wanted better for you kids. We did the best we
could, leaving our homes and going to graduate school not speaking much
English. If you take this job, you are just going to hit the same ceiling we
did. They just see me as an Asian Ph.D., never management potential. You are
going to get a job offer, but don’t take it. Your generation has to go farther
than we did, otherwise we did everything for nothing.”_

------
hartror
I am always slightly astounded by people who are completely cut off from their
cultural roots. Likely because I am a white Australian guy with English
parents and am envious of those around me with (to me) more interesting and
varied cultures.

~~~
hasenj
Once in high school, I asked a few Asian looking guys about where they're
from, they said "We're Canadians". I went "wtf?" in my head, and instead asked
them about where their parents are from.

What astonished me is how the seemed to "reject" their roots. Or at least
that's how I interpreted it. I would seriously hate it if my children rejected
their origins.

EDIT: To clarify, I'm not white myself.

~~~
msbarnett
They weren't rejecting their roots, they were answering the question you
asked: they were from Canada.

"Where are you from?" isn't synonymous with "what is your ethnic background?",
especially when there are 3rd and 4th generation Canadians of Asian decent.

A lot of people will recognize when being asked that "Where are you from?" is
supposed to be a politer way of asking "So why aren't you white?", but refuse
to play along because it feels kind of asinine to say you're "from Taiwan"
when your family has been in Vancouver for close to a century and you've never
even been to Taiwan.

~~~
hasenj
> A lot of people will recognize when being asked that "Where are you from?"
> is supposed to be a politer way of asking "So why aren't you white?"

In my case, I'm not white myself, so there's no way my question would be
perceived as "so why are you different from us?".

~~~
basugasubaku
It doesn't matter if the questioner is white or not; they likely reacted as
explained in msburnett's interpretation. As worded, the question seems to
presume that they are foreigners/immigrants and the follow-up question that
their parents are foreigners/immigrants.

~~~
hasenj
Part of what astonishes me is why people should feel "ashamed" or even
"bothered" that they have a different cultural background. I _am_ an
immigrant, so what? Why should I or anyone else take offense to that?

~~~
buckler
Do you usually ask the same question to white Canadians as well ("Where are
you from?", "Oh, where are your parents from then?")? It would be safe to
assume that white Canadians are generally confronted with those questions with
much less frequency than Asian Canadians are.

May be some do have a sense of self-hatred like you said, but I would guess
most people are simply annoyed by those questions so they respond adversely.
Like others have mentioned already, it's really frustrating from a point of
view of a person who might be a 3rd generation Canadian, as the questions can
make him/her feel like perpetual foreigner. Why can't you take "Canadian" as
an answer when those people have lived there for all their lives and might
have never even visited their grandparents' country of origin?

As you've said you're an immigrant, your ethnicity and the fact that you're a
first generation immigrant might be a big part of who you are (if you do treat
them importantly, that is). For second generation Canadians and on, that might
be not so true. It's not that they are embarrassed by their respective
ethnicity, but it just doesn't play a big part in their lives in their
thoughts.

------
bane
They party a bit, then go back to being normal average everyday people --
except some slightly higher percentage lands slightly higher paying jobs at
the start with a decreasing pay differential over time with their peers.

------
BornInTheUSSR
I have a feeling that this article resonates with the majority of Americans
who, for whatever reason, feel themselves among the minority

------
brendano
This is why Asians are underrepresented in tech startups --- wrong set of
cultural values and inclinations. (I am Asian)

~~~
maxwin
Though I don't have data to back up my point, my impression is that there are
actually a lot of Asian tech founders. (a well known example is Yahoo Co-
founder). If you consider the population ratio to tech founder ratio, asians
are probably doing a better job than some other non-white groups. Of course,
if you compare the over-presentation of asians in elite universities with
their presentation in startups,there could be a lot more asian tech founders.
(i'm asian too)

~~~
muhfuhkuh
A preponderance of the founders and/or principle engineering teams in the most
popular and promising web properties are Asian. Naveen Salvaduri at
Foursquare, Steve Chen at Youtube, all three main engineers at Quora, Bill
Nguyen at Color, even Euwyn Poon at YC S10 Opzi.

~~~
abi
"All three main engineers at Quora" is an extremely inaccurate statement.

~~~
muhfuhkuh
<http://www.quora.com/about/team>

Kevin Der, Tracy Chou, Albert Sheu, and Shreyes Seshasai are all listed
directly below the Co-founders on the aforementioned page. How is that an
inaccurate statement? Because I said three instead of four?

~~~
Locke1689
There's no indication that that list is in direct order of importance at
Quora. To assume so is a little rude, at best.

------
Aloisius
So make social and leadership skills part of the entrance exam to elite high
schools/colleges and watch every one of these cram schools add soft skills to
their lesson plans.

I'd also suggest adding ethics, but that's another conversation...

~~~
potatolicious
> _"and watch every one of these cram schools add soft skills to their lesson
> plans"_

I'd be interested in knowing how. You can't learn soft skills out of a book.

~~~
Aloisius
Tell that to the authors of the thousands of self-help books that line your
local bookstore, many of which are dedicated to soft skills.

And you wouldn't necessarily have to learn it out of a book. The posted
article cited several examples of programs to teach people soft skills.

------
alexsb92
There is a previous post on HN, which talked about how rich kids have already
won the career game. There are quite a few similar points raised in that
article, and even a few answers to questions raised in this article. Reading
both will definitely add to the perspective.

"How Rich Kids Have Already Won The Career Game"
<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2296550>

------
joshhart
"Even if you land that good high-paying gig, the white guy with the pedigree
from a mediocre state university will somehow move ahead of you in the ranks
simply because he’s white."

Going to Harvard doesn't and shouldn't guarantee that you'll be a CEO at 55.
Proving yourself in the real world is what matters and that skill set is
different than the one needed for a high GPA.

------
antidaily
The last 45 minutes of 'Harold and Kumar Go to White Castle'?

------
stretchwithme
what happened to all those racist underachievers?

~~~
Deestan
They went into politics.

------
code_duck
Probably they get hired at Google, and overachieve there.

------
JasonMoyMN79
This is what I never understood about Asian over-achieving kids. My high
school in Minnesota was full of them. They were trying so hard to be perfect,
forced by their parents to take violin and piano lessons, score perfect SAT
scores, get into Harvard and MIT. But what happened to them? I've been to my
high school reunions, and the truth is, none of them turned out to be anything
remarkable. None of them are particularly wealthy or famous. They all got
regular jobs and are slaving away in corporate America. Not that that's a bad
thing. It's just not that different from anyone else.

~~~
muhfuhkuh
"I've been to my high school reunions, and the truth is, none of them turned
out to be anything remarkable."

80% of Asian kids in America go on to higher (+12) education. 53% degree
attainment (other races are less than 30%). Comprising less than 10% of the
population, Asian populations at the Ivy League are ~25%+ (nearly or more than
30% at Stanford and MIT). Asians in America make more on average than all
other races.

Asians seem to be attaining alot in a country where they are less than 10% of
the population and objective metrics of achievement are even possible. There
could be something about the "bamboo ceiling", but Asians are doing
objectively better, on average, than the average white, black, or hispanic
person.

~~~
sliverstorm
Yea, if you measure success in terms of going to Ivy League schools. Hate to
break it to you though, attending an Ivy League does not equate to success in
_life_ , nor does it always result in success. The whole point of the article
is, what happens AFTER they get that degree?

~~~
potatolicious
Pretty simple really. Most start off more highly paid than most - but the pay
difference drops off over time. Most lead unassuming, mundane existences.

A large portion live with the nagging dissatisfaction that they struggled so
much harder than everyone else, sacrificed so much more, and yet somehow the
payoff doesn't seem commensurate. They were at the top end of the distribution
all their life, but now practically define normality.

Most will look around them and realize it could be much worse - they could be
running a laundromat. They will then quietly accept their mundane, normal, and
honestly, somewhat boring existence in good grace.

Some cannot get over the fact that they threw their childhood, adolescence,
and prime years away for a shot at mediocrity. Some have become miserable in
this process - this goes double for those who had a real passion for something
_off_ the beaten Asian track (art, literature, music, etc). Some of these
people will eventually crack and throw it all away to pursue what they
_actually_ wanted to do.

If they fail, they will be used as examples on why straying from The Path(tm)
is unwise.

If they succeed, they will be praised and looked upon in admiration as a
triumphant success of the immigrant community. They will, ironically, be used
as examples of how It Works(tm) whenever this exact issue comes up in
conversation.

~~~
muhfuhkuh
"They will then quietly accept their mundane, normal, and honestly, somewhat
boring existence in good grace."

Wow, that is some kind of assumption. Wishful thinking, or perhaps projecting?

"Some have become miserable in this process - this goes double for those who
had a real passion for something off the beaten Asian track (art, literature,
music, etc). Some of these people will eventually crack and throw it all away
to pursue what they actually wanted to do."

Just as a data point apropos of nothing, every single winning team in the
television show "America's best dance crew" has either been exclusively or
overwhelmingly Asian. That's after 5 seasons.

So, I think you might be conflating the "typical chinese tiger child" with all
Asian/East Asian parents. You may need to head to the West Coast to see how
much culturally different the kids (and their parents) are there.

~~~
potatolicious
Surprise, I grew up on the West Coast. Tiger kids are tiger kids - there isn't
a huge gradient from coast to coast.

> _"Wishful thinking, or perhaps projecting?"_

On the contrary, I'd be delighted if more Asians broke the mold and had the
resolve and determination to buck expectations. It is difficult, and most will
never go through with it, but I suspect most will think about it, a lot.

> _"every single winning team in the television show "America's best dance
> crew" has either been exclusively or overwhelmingly Asian. That's after 5
> seasons."_

That fact alone is pointless without knowing how many Asian dance crews have
_entered_. Like I said, most will never buck the trend and go against the
grain - especially in such a dramatic way as pursuing dance and popular music.
Maybe Asians would win more if more of them pursued this - or maybe they
won't. It's all supposition.

~~~
muhfuhkuh
"That fact alone is pointless without knowing how many Asian dance crews have
entered. Like I said, most will never buck the trend and go against the grain
- especially in such a dramatic way as pursuing dance and popular music."

That's specious reasoning, simply because if you're going to accept _foremost_
the idea that _all_ Asian kids are going to MIT and/or studying CS and pre-Med
and doing almost _nothing else_ , then it only stands to reason that a
preponderance of them are not going to be pursuing dance and pop music in any
significant number. Or, at least, that's what _you_ claim.

Speaking of Pop music, in 2010, the Far East Movement had the #1 pop song in
the country for a month. Bruno Mars is Filipino, and has had 3 of his songs in
the top 10 songs.

So, either alot of them _are_ pursuing dance and pop music in significant
numbers, or Asians are so talented in either that they simply _will_
themselves to greatness even though there are so few in pursuit of it. They
simply excel in spite of themselves and in their cultural vacuum of tigers and
testing.

------
Hisoka
I think the author has the "grass is greener on the other side" mentality.
Guess what? Those white kids who slacked off at high school, and didn't care
about getting the A+? Those kids also have issues in life - instead of
wondering why they overachieved, they're wondering what the heck to do with
their life, and why they didn't focus on their future in school.

