
Research indicates that only about half of perceived friendships are mutual - hvo
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/08/07/opinion/sunday/do-your-friends-actually-like-you.html?action=click&contentCollection=U.S.&module=Trending&version=Full&region=Marginalia&pgtype=article
======
rebeccaskinner
I learned this the hard way not too long ago when someone informed me that a
number of people I'd worked with who I'd thought of as friends just really
disliked me. It hit hard at first because I thought of them as friends- 'work
friends' at the very least, and made me start questioning other people that I
thought of as friends.

After letting my mind spin in a tight loop about it for a while I decided that
really it doesn't matter that much, because I'm happier liking people, and I
can like someone and be friendly even irrespective of if they like me or not.
Of course I'm not going to push my company on people who are clear that they
don't want it, but it doesn't really do any good to second guess who actually
cares for me and who is being polite.

~~~
JoeAltmaier
I think maybe you had just one non-friend - the one that told you that caustic
lie. Just a thought.

~~~
zeveb
But what if it's a caustic truth?

Seriously, the world isn't all fluffy fuzzy happiness. Sometimes people
honestly dislike and even despise one another, but they can still produce good
work together. Gilbert & Sullivan are a good example.

~~~
throwanem
Whether it's a caustic lie or a caustic truth, it's still caustic. Either way,
what good do you see coming of its revelation in this context?

~~~
bm5k
Put yourself in OP's position: would you rather _not_ know?

~~~
throwanem
Yes.

Edited to expand: I already sandbox my personal and work lives thoroughly, so
it's not going to cost me anything of significance beyond the job if I lose
the job - not that that's not significant, but it's not my whole life, either.
If, to a good first approximation, everyone where I work hates me, then I'm
already going to lose the job, because with that many people looking to put a
knife in my back, someone is going to succeed.

The odds that knowing this is true will make it possible for me to _change_ it
are effectively negligible; on the one hand, if everyone where I work hates me
because of my own behavior, I'm not equipped to change anyone's mind, and on
the other, if everyone where I work hates me because of something that isn't
actually under my control, everyone where I work _still hates me_ and I'm
literally the last person in the world who's going to be able to do anything
about that. Either way, I'm screwed in a way that foreknowledge isn't going to
do anything to help; the best that'll happen if I find out ahead of time is
nothing, and the worst is that I'll make my situation even worse. So where's
the benefit in being told?

------
glenjamin
The article cites a study from a business management class of 84 people.

That seems like quite a small sample, and I wouldn't expect business
management students to be representative of the population as a whole.

It might still be true, but it's probably a bit early to write off all of your
perceived friends as shallow fakes.

~~~
Bartweiss
This definitely seems like another edition of "researcher generalizes from
handful of white college students to entire country".

If you asked me to name a group with the largest percentage of fake
friendships, "college business management class" would be right up there with
"popular clique in high school". So the _topic_ is worth talking about, but
I'll bet the _number_ is skewed way to the high end.

~~~
oldmanjay
It's important to note that your biases certainly don't lend your conclusions
any more credence than you're willing to give the article

~~~
Bartweiss
No, but I'm not actually objecting to the business management class in
particular (that's just a guess).

I'm objecting to yet another popular article that treats a narrow study of a
non-standard sample like it's ground truth. Generalizing from classmates to
friend groups (which are more elective and full of closure/network effects) is
totally unsupported, and while that doesn't invalidate the study it certainly
cripples the article.

------
nathan_long
> “There is a limited amount of time and emotional capital we can distribute,
> so we only have five slots for the most intense type of relationship,” Mr.
> Dunbar said. “People may say they have more than five but you can be pretty
> sure they are not high-quality friendships.”

This was the part I found most interesting. They describe people you're in
touch with daily or weekly as being in the "close friends" category.

Personally, I'm fortunate to have deep, meaningful, long-term friendships with
my wife and one other friend, and a few other friends and family members I
consider close even if we talk something more like "every couple months" \-
when we do, it's about important stuff. We freely say that we love each other,
we hug, and I feel more relaxed and happy around them.

I'm tempted by stuff like being liked on social media, but when I think about
it, it's pretty meaningless compared to these few relationships. Given X hours
for maintaining friendships, I'd rather have fewer and better.

~~~
musha68k
You can be good friends with more than five people - I wonder if they ever
heard of the concept of "quality time"..

The problem to me seems to be Facebook's pervasive "friend" lingo (certainly
not true in most cases) and a heavy cultural bias in that article.

~~~
Bartweiss
I think the issue may be that "good friends" and "most intense friendship" are
very different entities.

I'm sure I don't have more than five of the "most intense" sort of friends,
but there are a lot more people than that who I care deeply about.
Relationships that are very close when 'active' are presumably a different
category - I think most of us have old friends and family who we feel strong
connections to, but don't actually talk to on a daily or weekly basis.

Time places hard limits on how many people we see frequently and at length,
but frequency and quality are fairly independent axes. I'm assuming "most
intense" requires a high score on both.

------
ChrisBanner
The article refers to Carnegie's "How to Win Friends and Influence People" in
conjunction with "strategic and propagandist" friendships. The book is often
referenced in this manner but it's important to note that Carnegie emphasizes
one's approach to friendship must be genuine -- anything less rings hollow and
is easily spotted as fraud.

~~~
rorykoehler
Having read Carnegie's "How to Win Friends and Influence People" recently,
long after I had heard of people recommending it left, right and centre I came
to the conclusion that the book says more about the person who reads it and
finds it revelatory than it does about society itself. If you believe the
world works as the book lays out, it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.

~~~
stuxnet79
> "How to Win Friends and Influence People" recently, long after I had heard
> of people recommending it left, right and centre I came to the conclusion
> that the book says more about the person who reads it

Can you elaborate on this a little bit? I have never read the book mainly
because I remember one time in high school, I saw the guy sitting next to me
in math class flipping through it.

We had just started the class and we were still trying to figure each other
out and befriend each other at the time.

I sort of lost respect for him after seeing him flipping through the book. The
title always suggested to me that it was filled with manipulative tactics to
get people to do what you want.

No thanks.

~~~
heptathorp
You lost respect for someone you didn't know because you saw them reading a
book you had not read. You judged a book by its cover in both senses of the
phrase.

~~~
Frondo
This 10x.

Also...what if someone just wants more friends in their life, because they're
lonely, and don't really know how to be more personable? A book on winning
people over seems like a really useful book to have, if you want to, you know,
develop relationships with people and aren't very good at it yet.

~~~
rublev
It's the same problem with coding as it is with socializing. I find reading
books _about_ things instead of doing ultimately leads to nothing but anxiety
and a warped sense of whatever you're exploring. If you stay in those sorts of
books too much it will begin to warp your mind. Taken to the extreme you get
communities like 4chan r9k and reddits theredpill that try to boil every
interaction down into a transaction.

You have to be well equipped mentally and somewhat socially to not let things
like this bend your head.

~~~
Frondo
Sure, you gotta go out and do it, but books are great ways to get at least
some sense of what you're doing.

Like sales, in a past life I was selling stuff. I did sales for about 9 months
before cracking open a sales book. I recognized that I'd learned to do,
through blundering around, about 1/5th of what the book was telling me.
Reading about that other 4/5ths really opened my eyes. It gave me stuff to
think about and work on. It didn't replace experience, but guided it.

Same with a book about making friends, I think, especially for people who
didn't make a lot of friends as a kid, but want more in adulthood.

------
jcadam
As I get older I find I care less and less about whether or not others like
me.

Now, respect is another matter. If I had to choose, I'd rather be respected
than loved.

~~~
koolba
> As I get older I find I care less and less about whether or not others like
> me.

I came to that conclusion around 13 or 14. It's been a very pleasant and if I
had to put it one way or the other, I'd say most people do like me.

> Now, respect is another matter. If I had to choose, I'd rather be respected
> than loved.

Love is good, respect is great, but fear is the one that gets results!

~~~
Practicality
It's amazing to me the people that openly express sociopathic tendencies on
HN.

~~~
koolba
> It's amazing to me the people that openly express sociopathic tendencies on
> HN.

It's more amazing that the majority of people, both online and in meatspace,
prefer to sweep reality under the rug.

What's sociopathic about being able to recognize and deal with these types of
situations as they come up in your life?

~~~
Practicality
Caring more about getting things from people more than the actual people in
your life (ie, using fear to get what you want) is the very definition of a
sociopath.

What amazes me is that you are open about it. Most sociopaths try to hide that
fact, because once people realize they are being manipulated you lose control.

~~~
koolba
> Caring more about getting things from people more than the actual people in
> your life (ie, using fear to get what you want) is the very definition of a
> sociopath.

> What amazes me is that you are open about it. Most sociopaths try to hide
> that fact, because once people realize they are being manipulated you lose
> control.

Ha! Who said I'm like that?

I'm talking abstractly. When your circle of friends intersects with a friends
circle, you get to see a lot of interesting dynamics. One of those is fear
and, speaking frankly, it's pretty disgusting. But that doesn't mean it
doesn't exist.

------
michael_h
> The study analyzed friendship ties among 84 subjects (ages 23 to 38) in a
> business management class

I guess we had better draw some general conclusions from such a robust sample
then, shall we?

------
Spooky23
The article dances around, but doesn't really say that people define
friendship differently and segment their lives differently.

I have professional colleagues whom I consider good friends where we've
established level of mutual trust, but our "closeness" is defined by
what/where we're going things -- we have a level of trust that is very
meaningful, but we mutually "pop" up/down to a higher/lower levels of
friendship.

------
andrewclunn
Well according to this article, now that I've moved, all my friends will
inevitably become acquaintances. Of course making new true friends is much
harder when you're older. Wow, depressing.

~~~
cableshaft
It's at least true for me. For example, I had someone that was probably my
best friend that I hung out with at least once a week when he lived near me,
and after he moved away, I'd like his Facebook posts but almost never reach
out to talk to him. Except when he comes back into town, then I make a point
to be available and we catch up. I also might go visit him next year sometime.
But yeah, I haven't spoken to him in at least six months.

And now I have other friends nearby that I care about more and make an effort
to hang out with on a regular basis.

And for that reason (amongst others), I am very hesitant to move away from
this place, even though there are better job opportunities elsewhere in the
country. I'm friends with quite a few people here, and I know I won't maintain
those friendships hardly at all once I move away.

~~~
nxc18
It is true. When you move, you will lose all your friendships and life will be
difficult for a while.

That doesn't mean you shouldn't do it. You can always make new friends, and if
you put in the effort, you will.

The whole nonsense about true friends is kind of silly. Friendship is 95%
proximity and 5% compatibility. You can get that anywhere and the history of
your friendships really doesn't add value.

This is a classic case of the sunk cost fallacy that a lot of people fall
into. You've got to do what's best for yourself in the long run, excluding
your sunk costs (in this case, time building relationships). Imagine how silly
you'll feel if all your friends move away and you waited around for nothing.

~~~
cableshaft
I'm pretty introverted by nature, and it took a concerted effort of me going
to pretty much every meetup I could in the area over a period of two years to
build up the social network I have in the area.

Could I do it from scratch again? Sure, and perhaps I will in a year or two,
especially now that I've found a significant other that fits into my life so
well.

But I really like the geography of where I live, the people where I live, the
culture in close proximity to where I live, and I have job with a good dev
culture that pays a respectable amount for the region and looks good on a
resume, so I'm not exactly in a hurry to leave quite yet.

I'm not waiting for my friends. The pasture is pretty green where I'm at, and
I'm not entirely convinced the pasture is just as green on the other side of
the fence, even if it might pay more.

------
cbanek
This all finally makes sense.

So many times I've heard that you're the average of the 5 people you spend the
most time with, but then if you suck and go hang out with 5 awesome people all
the time, don't you bring down their average?

Unless there's some kind of friendship time ponzi scheme where you can spend
little time but still be top 5...

~~~
nostrademons
"Suck" isn't a single dimension. Usually in groups of friends, you end up
sucking in a dimension that those friends don't care about, while bringing
something to the group that they do.

------
ysavir
I usually have the opposite problem: I'll consider myself a friend of a
person, but that person thinks I _don 't_ like them. A common side effect of
being factual/honest, unfortunately.

~~~
CPLX
I bet that's not the reason people think you don't like them.

------
matwood
I'm old enough now to know what I do to annoy other people. I actively work on
those things, so people who _are_ around me at least do not want to run away
:)

I'm also old enough not to care if someone does not like me. Life is too short
to be fake friendly, and some people just do not get along. I'm okay with
that.

------
DelaneyM
Perhaps social networking has changed how we define "friend", and some are
adopting the new definition faster than others?

I have many connections, but very few real friends. I'm totally fulfilled by
that though, and can't imagine having enough time (or the desire) to nurture
more friendships. But when everyone has 500+ "friends" on Facebook, does 5 no
longer seem like a large enough number to tell a researcher?

I also don't have any social networking accounts (besides LinkedIn), neither
do my "real" friends. This could be because our anti-social(-network)
temperaments are a part of what draws us together, but it could also mean that
social(-network) butterflies are spreading themselves too thin to keep up with
their expanded group of acquaintances.

Eh, anecdata, take it for what it is.

------
SixSigma
Do I Actually Care If My Friends Like Me?

I mean, there's plenty about my friends I actively dislike but we have more
binding us together than tearing us apart.

------
joestr87
"By his definition, friends are people you take the time to understand and
allow to understand you.”

TIL I literally have no friends.

~~~
krick
Maybe it's a cliché, but it really seems to me rarely somebody does. Not
"mature and adult" people anyway. Except for spouse, maybe. Maybe.

Why? Well, understanding implies there is something to understand, that
implies feelings, generally. Big thoughts, sincere troubles. And "mature and
adult" people are not about feelings, they are about business. They don't show
their feelings and don't put their nose into others'. Especially in western,
"civilized" countries: you are supposed to smile, you are supposed to be
happy…ish. Everybody knows that "we don't need toxic people in our company",
right? If you don't sport bright fake smile that's already "gloom", maybe
impolitely so.

And now, with facebook and stuff everybody you need to speak occasionally to
is a "friend". And I don't really mean it in a bad way (well, maybe a little I
do): "friend" is just a word, it means what people mean by it, not what some
psychologist (or even a dictionary) defines it to be.

So maybe you just need to use another word to suit this definition. I mean, if
you say you don't have a "soulmate" it doesn't sound as surprising, right?
Maybe sad, but not surprising, really.

------
justinlardinois
Reposted from a different thread on this article:

Ugh, this headline asks a question that's not very fun to ponder. Especially
considering Betteridge's law [1].

When it comes to male friends, I think part of the problem is that
men—especially straight men—are bad at/afraid of expressing intimacy in
platonic contexts, probably because of social conditioning and subconscious
homophobia.

When I thought about the answer to the headline's question for my friends, the
only "I don't know"s were men. My female friends have made it clear that they
value my friendship; most of my male friends haven't, and I think I'm bad at
expressing that to anyone of any gender. Of course, maybe I'm just
overgeneralizing my own experiences and/or my female friends are just better
friends than my male friends.

Either way, good article. A lot of the not-news NYT stuff that gets posted on
HN is crap, to be honest. This one really got me thinking and got me to churn
out something _wayyy_ more personal than I'd normally ever post here.

> Others point to a misunderstanding of the very notion of friendship in an
> age when “friend” is used as a verb, and social inclusion and exclusion are
> as easy as a swipe or a tap on a smartphone screen.

I realize it's just fluff for the intro of the article, but this is typical
kids-today-and-their-loud-music-get-off-my-lawn garbage. Social media does in
general make people more aware of more people's lives, but I doubt anyone
actually believes that every single one of their Facebook friends is actually
their friend.

[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Betteridge%27s_law_of_headline...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Betteridge%27s_law_of_headlines)

------
helthanatos
Anyone I know, I usually refer to them as a "friend" in conversation, whether
they are or not. The word "friend" does not mean much to me, considering I'm
invariably stabbed in the back if someone becomes "good friends."

~~~
magic_beans
What do you mean by "stabbed in the back"? Just out of curiosity... How could
it have happened so many times?

~~~
antisthenes
I think that tells you a lot more about _helthanatos_ than about his 'back-
stabbing' 'friends'.

~~~
helthanatos
Well, it could... It could also tell you about environment and people in
general.

------
booleandilemma
Nothing so fortifies a friendship as a belief on the part of one friend that
he is superior to the other.

Honoré de Balzac

------
BrandoElFollito
The size of the layers described in the article seems correct. The contact
frequency as a measure of said friendship is not. My closest friend lives 1800
km away, we are in touch 5 times a year at most and still enjoy it very much,
always looking forward to it.

------
jksmith
Take a guess at romantic relationships by type. Higher? Lower? About the same?

------
slantaclaus
Reworded study findings: half of all people are assholes.

------
nickbauman
This is a generalization. In Europe, people seem to try harder at friendships.
They consider it almost duty to be a good friend to someone. In the US, people
are more likely to consider only the "fun" aspect of friendship. If someone is
having a tough time, they commensurately go down in the esteem meter.

~~~
reifnir
This comment is a generalization

~~~
dempseye
I usually find that comments in which the author explains how things are "in
Europe" are full of generalisations.

~~~
bsbechtel
Are you generalizing comments about Europe generalizing how things are there?

~~~
dempseye
Yes.

------
basicplus2
I thought you said your friend liked you?

that.. is not.. my friend!

------
33a
Great, yet another thing to be anxious about on this fine monday morning.

------
hackity
Sounds like what actually happened was that you friend-zoned them. They loved
you, but you didn't reciprocate. Then they hated you. Discovering that, they
hurt you. However, you, in turn, just friend-zoned them even more. Savage.

~~~
throwanem
Sounds like somebody needs to spend less time on r/redpill, maybe.

~~~
hackity
The author and the reader chose divergent tones.

------
sabret00the
Why is this on HN?

~~~
pasbesoin
Navigating social environments has been one of the hardest "problems" I've
faced, in life. Tech is easy, by comparison.

A big part of that problem was not being taught, and demonstrated, as a child,
how such things work. My family was very disfunctional.

I suspect I'm not the only one, here...

And, it has direct bearing on my intellectual and technical performance. When
I'm not happy, and not social, I'm not much of anything... including in those
spheres.

YMMV

------
mobiuscog
Friends ?

------
pepy
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12243680](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12243680)
posted it last night, good to see it caught some traction.

~~~
gpvos
I was there before you:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12241212](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12241212)
, but no need to brag. Happy to see it discussed anyway.

