
Ask HN: Do recruiters lose out by requiring a degree? - oblib
I started learning to code web apps before there were even courses teaching it, and even when courses began to be offered they were behind the tech curve.<p>I&#x27;ll admit I don&#x27;t know where those courses stand now, but it would seem recruiters might be ignoring a lot of talent by placing that hurdle in front of applicants.<p>Of course, most of them might be old guys like me so my view may be skewed on this issue, but still, there seems to be a wall there that could be costing them more than they realize.<p>I&#x27;m interested in hearing what others might think about this.
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lordCarbonFiber
I think what you're missing is the shear number of candidates. Does requiring
(or even weighting at all) academics result in false negatives, absolutely.
However candidates with a CS degree tend to, on average, perform better and
there's a lot less of them when compared to "total population looking for a
job". This makes filtering on a degree a cheap and effective signal when you
aren't dedicated to having technology people do nothing but interview all day
and everyday to find talent without hefty prepruning.

~~~
oblib
That make sense. I have no real life perspective on that because I've mostly
worked on my own stuff, alone, but I can see where one might get overwhelmed
by applicants.

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Rotdhizon
I don't know about the coding section of the IT world, but I know when it
comes to IT security, job posts requiring degrees are usually just there as a
formality. It's more of a recommendation than it is a requirement. The key
factor is to never not apply because you don't have the degree they want. If
they are a company with any sense, they will take your experience much more
seriously than they do any formal education. Granted almost all modern coding
jobs require you to take a real time coding test through something like a
Skype call, so you have to be able to back up the skills you put down.

~~~
oblib
Ok, thank you for that.

One of the reasons I got to thinking about this is I read a piece on doing
well in an interview and it mentioned a "Fizz/Buzz" test, which I'd never
heard of, and it gave an example of one. I looked at it and thought it seemed
pretty simple and I'd never even heard of a "Fibonacci sequence" (I had to
play with that some more though because it's just fun).

But a solution was as easy to code as I expected so that left me a little
baffled. I can see how it demonstrates one's ability to implement logic, but
it left me wondering if the bar is that low to get hired or if there are that
many applicants that could not solve it needing to be weeded out?

If the latter is the case, how did they get a degree?

(Or maybe the example was very simple, I really do not know because I've not
been anywhere near a "tech center" and don't get to hang out much with those
who work in the industry)

~~~
_ah
You would be SHOCKED at how many promising-sounding candidates show up in an
interview completely unable to write Fizz/Buzz, or Fibonacci, or strrev(). Or
they can write it, but it takes 10 minutes. I've seen this so many times and I
still have trouble believing it (though the rate has improved somewhat with
better up-front screening techniques).

~~~
mrfusion
A lot of them are just nervous or have performance anxiety.

It’s a real thing. I’ve seen brilliant coders completely bomb interviews.

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pesfandiar
Not if they have a big enough pool to draw candidates from. They're playing a
numbers game, and would rather spend their time on better prospects. If having
a degree makes a candidate more likely to get hired (arguably true), they
would use that filter to improve their odds.

Now, if they can't find enough people, loosening criteria to allow for
candidates without degrees would be a wise strategy.

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badrabbit
They do.

Recently applied for a position I am somewhat qualified for (all the right
resume keywords and x years of experience). Recruiter calls me in for an
interview only to tell me the 'client' wants someone with a degree.

Degrees are nice to have for getting past bureaucracy. However,I still
maintain for IT an programming jobs,the time and financial investment is
largely a waste.

------
JSeymourATL
Several forward thinking firms (including bozo recruiters) figured this out
long ago. You don’t need a college degree to be talented.

 _“When you look at people who don’t go to school and make their way in the
world, those are exceptional human beings. And we should do everything we can
to find those people,” Bock said. Many businesses “require” a college degree;
at Google, the word “college” isn’t even its official guide to hiring._ >
[https://venturebeat.com/2014/04/25/why-google-doesnt-care-
ab...](https://venturebeat.com/2014/04/25/why-google-doesnt-care-about-
college-degrees-in-5-quotes/)

~~~
johnpython
Google is forward thinking? This is the same company that requested not only
college, but highschool GPA and SAT scores from applicants and whose interview
process is entirely textbook algorithm questions.

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bjourne
I have a degree and then some. But if what you are thinking about is a regular
"build a website in this dynamic language using this new-fangled framework
that is the best thing since sliced break" job, then yes, they are losing out.
What you need for that is experience coding, coding, coding, coding. But
things like linear algebra, master thesises, relational algebra, complexity
analysis, compiler construction, finite automata theory and all that amazing
and fun stuff that you dabble with in universities is, more or less,
completely useless.

~~~
tiuPapa
I dunno. I am self teaching and I am finding things like compilers, os stuff,
grammars, fsm, automata stuff, etc quite helpful. Like trying to write a
parser helps understand the code I am writing a bit better, as well as
understanding how abstractions like futures and promises could be working
below the hood. While I understand that I may not be always right in the way I
am understanding these stuff, I won't say they are completely useless.

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agitator
There are plenty of people out there with valuable skills that get overlooked.
And yes it's unfortunate, but think about it from the recruiters perspective.
They try to maximize their ROI on candidates. Filtering by ones with a degree
increases the probability of hiring a candidate, so it's just an easy way to
make hiring more efficient. Just need to set yourself apart in some way, maybe
by having some github projects or a portfolio to share, and lack of degree
should be less of a hurdle.

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tudelo
How do they lose out if they find someone that meets the job requirements?
Really they only lose out if they settle for somebody who can't do X and has a
degree when there was someone who could do X and doesn't have a degree,
assuming X is more important than a potentially well rounded education
(quality obviously varies and I agree it is not a HUGE boon for most jobs).

~~~
locococo
I agree with your sentiment. However I think a well rounded education is
important, having a group of well rounded individuals in a team will be more
productive. As a hiring manager I think about the team also and not only the
individual I am hiring.

~~~
oblib
I'm sure your right about one needing to be able to work with a team, and
having a well rounded education may well be an indicator of that, but I can't
say having a degree has been something I've been able to connect to it.

------
locococo
Different Perspective,

they don't loose out, they minimize their risk by not hiring someone who on
the surface seems to know how to code but deep down below does not add a whole
lot of value to the team because they lack in depth knowledge on subjects that
go beyond coding.

I have 15 years of experience and went back to get a degree in CS. Why,
because I realized there is a huge gap in my theoretical knowledge. Everyone
nowadays seems so convinced that you can equate watching a couple of youtube
videos to getting a 4 year education in a field.

This is a fallacious oversimplification of reality, no one in their right mind
would say the same about engineering or medicine or law.

My 2c

~~~
potta_coffee
It's funny that you equate not going to college with "watching a couple of
youtube videos". Don't you think there are some non-college educated
developers who read algorithm books, take online courses, etc? A motivated
person can absolutely self-learn the CS that's taught in universities.

~~~
johnpython
We are extremely fortunate today to have resources that enable one to
independently study the entire contents of a CS degree in the fraction of time
on their own schedule. Pursuing a CS degree while actively employed in the
field is a foolish waste of money.

~~~
oblib
That's what I'm thinking too. I have spent so much time over the years
studying and working with computers and languages and digging into specifics
to accomplish a task that a degree would really mostly be a widow dressing
that would be counter productive to obtain by distracting me from learning
things more important in a real work environment.

I don't mean to imply I'm an wizard. I'm far from that. I've learned on a need
to know basis and focused on building web apps and platforms to run them on. I
do have a clue about what I don't know though, and that too is important.

But, as you've pointed out, most everything needed to learn how to do this
stuff right is freely available and easily accessible and constantly evolving
so at best you're learning with a snapshot of somewhat outdated material in a
classroom. That's not a bad way to learn, but it's not how I've learned. I
dove in headfirst and started making stuff, learning as I went.

Still, as to the original comment, I admire the hard work it takes to get a
degree when one really applies themselves. It's no small accomplishment and
I'm sure I'd learn a lot if I went through the process, and that I'd enjoy it
too. I would love to be able to do that.

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codegladiator
There is a huge crowd that has a degree plus whatever experience you have.
They don't consider it losing out, because no one would when you would see the
sheer number of applicants along with their experience/degree.

~~~
oblib
Ok, but therein lies a rub because some of the "help wanted" ads I see have
been running for months and they've still not hired anyone, or at least the
ads continue to run.

This one, for example, has been up since June and has been included in the
CouchDB "Weekly News" since then. Seems odd they've not filled the position
and that's part of what got me wondering about this:

[https://stackoverflow.com/jobs/142140/code-monkey-web-
applic...](https://stackoverflow.com/jobs/142140/code-monkey-web-application-
developer-ascendtms?sec=False&pg=1&offset=0&q=couchdb)

~~~
codegladiator
If someone with a degree isn't able to cross their interview, what would make
then think that someone without a degree would be able to do it ? Why would
they risk spending on the interview where _they think_ the candidate has even
lesser chance ?

~~~
oblib
The answer to the 1st question is nothing.

Nothing would make them think that and that's obvious so the real question is
"why do they think that?" because the fact is there are a lot of great
programmers that never got a degree.

The answer to the 2nd questions is to find someone who can actually do it. If
you need a real world example look at Apple Computer.

