
Keurig Will Use DRM In New Coffee Maker - midnitewarrior
http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20140227/06521826371/keurig-will-use-drm-new-coffee-maker-to-lock-out-refill-market.shtml
======
ignostic
This case doesn't have anything to do with DRM as the title suggest. It's more
clear in the article: "the java-bean equivalent of DRM". As far as I can tell
it's actually just allegations of patent abuse and anti-competitive vertical
integration.

Keurig had a patent on the technology for both machine and pod. That patent
expired in 2012, allowing third-party vendors to start making pods. Treehouse
Foods argues (among other things) that Keurig is changing the design of their
machine and the pods. The allegation is that the new design doesn't have any
practical purpose other than to maintain the patent on pods for several years.

If true, this is going to be an interesting case. Keurig can change the design
of their machine whenever they want in theory, but can they do so for no other
reason than to maintain their own market share? They'd be effectively forcing
everyone to pay them to compete at all so long as people buy new machines.

Drug companies often employ similar patent tricks in order to maintain their
dominance of a market via extended patents, patents on new uses for the same
chemical, and slightly-altered and somewhat improved chemicals. Consumer
groups have complained about this for years, but nothing serious has changed
yet.

~~~
jccalhoun
It might end up just being a new shape but the CEO's wording implies that it
will be closer to what is used in printer ink cartridges. Following the trail
from the submitted article to the article it links to and to the article that
one links to finally takes us to the transcript of the CEO's earnings call:
[http://seekingalpha.com/article/1853341-green-mountain-
coffe...](http://seekingalpha.com/article/1853341-green-mountain-coffee-
roasters-ceo-discusses-f4q-2013-results-earnings-call-transcript)

"While we're still not willing to discuss specifics about the platform for
competitive reasons, we are confident it delivers game-changing performance.
To ensure the system delivers on the promise of excellent quality beverages
produced simply and consistently every brew every time, we use interactive
technology to help us perfectly brew all Keurig brew packs. Because of this
the system will not brew unlicensed packs."

~~~
angersock
It's. A fucking. Coffeepot.

~~~
M2Ys4U
I bet it doesn't even comply with RFC 2324 either.

[https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2324](https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2324)

~~~
angersock
You know, if someone actually built one of those, I'd probably have to
convince our CFO to buy it.

~~~
anon4
It's actually trivial, just make a teapot that responds to every request with
418 - I'm a teapot.

It won't make coffee, but it will comply with RFC 2324

------
mikegioia
I actively try to dissuade people from buying Keurig machines, or any "coffee
pod" machine and this is just another reason why. Aside from the fact that the
coffee is watery, the pods just add such an unnecessary amount of garbage to
something that doesn't need to generate any waste.

I think the concept is cool but re-usable pods are the way to go. This is
stupid of Keurig.

~~~
jcampbell1
I waste 7 pounds of petroleum driving to work, and .01 lbs from my morning
k-cup. My time has value, and I am not going to waste it greenwashing.

~~~
ssharp
I have a Breville machine that allows you to pour in a heap of coffee beans,
and it grinds and automatically fills the filter with your desired strength
based on how much water you put in the machine. I believe they also make one
that has a water reservoir that you periodically fill and you can just dial in
a cup amount and it does everything else for you.

I've been pretty happy with it since I get fresh ground coffee and don't need
to measure it. You still have to clean the filter after every use, but really
it takes me less than 60 seconds to clean out the filter and fill the machine
with water. Grinding the coffee and measuring it out manually was the biggest
bottleneck in my daily coffee routine, so the Breville has at least eliminated
that step.

Now if I could only plumb water directly to it...

~~~
cortesoft
60 seconds to clean isn't nothing. Changing the keurig pods takes less than 3
seconds.

It might make me lazy, but every second I am not cleaning my coffee device I
can be doing something else.

~~~
lisper
This. Plus I have yet to see any non-pod-style coffee machine that can
competently make one cup at a time.

~~~
not-gro-tsen
I have a manual grinder and an Aeropress. Making one cup at a time is easy,
and the taste is superior to pod-style coffee in my opinion.

The time I spend grinding the coffee is part of the enjoyment.

~~~
balls187
Really?

[http://globalassets.starbucks.com/assets/bbbb918e28fa404b836...](http://globalassets.starbucks.com/assets/bbbb918e28fa404b836246b63cb5af65.jpg)

I much prefer that machine to the crappy k-cup machines.

~~~
lisper
Hard to tell what machine that is from just a tiny photo.

~~~
balls187
Soz for the smal shot.

Basically it's a machine with 3 compartments:

Coffee, Decaf Hot Chocolate

And you can push a button, it grinds, and outputs your cup.

I prefer it vastly to the k-cups.

------
giarc
Keurig is free to do what they want, just as a consumer is free to choose
whichever coffee maker they want.

Maybe this will blow up in their face, or perhaps given their market share it
will all work out.

~~~
HarryHirsch
This practice isn't what copyright was intended for when it was written into
the constitution. The idea is that copyright is a time-limited monopoly to
make money of immaterial property, it mustn't serve to lock out the secondary
market for printer cartridges and coffee.

~~~
mikeash
The way it _should_ work is, Keurig should be able to do whatever they want in
terms of DRM on their hardware, and other companies should be able to do
whatever _they_ want in terms of reverse engineering that DRM to produce
compatible products.

I don't know if that's how the law actually is, but it sounds like it might
be.

~~~
Consultant32452
With the DMCA it is illegal for competitors to reverse engineer the DRM to
produce compatible products.

~~~
AUmrysh
It's illegal for them to reverse engineer (and reimplement) hardware DRM for
interoperability, but software DRM circumvention is protected by DMCA, only
for the purpose of interoperability.

------
nsxwolf
I'm not sure why they would attempt this. If they think they're going to get
DMCA protection out of it, Lexmark already lost a case that seems to be this
exactly:

Lexmark Int'l v. Static Control Components
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lexmark_Int'l_v._Static_Control...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lexmark_Int'l_v._Static_Control_Components)

All they can do is make it harder for competitors to make compatible cups, but
that sounds like a fool's errand.

~~~
eli
IANAL but the Lexmark case doesn't seem like it necessarily says the DMCA
doesn't apply to physical products, just that it doesn't apply in the way that
Lexmark implemented it. Also isn't part of the case still pending decision of
the Supreme Court?

------
keithpeter
I feel completely out-nerded here. I shall just spoon some fine ground coffee
from the local shop into my moka pot tomorrow and pop it on the hotplate.

As others have said, I actually _like_ the reflective few minutes the process
takes early in the morning with the back door open...

~~~
HeyLaughingBoy
I'm guessing that you live someplace where, unlike where I am, the temperature
outside the back door is warmer than -15F ;-)

~~~
keithpeter
UK: Spring like weather at present, an invigorating 5 degrees C this morning
at 7am.

------
shittyanalogy
Regular Coffee: Grounds inside a tin can you scoop. Depending on your process,
a thin paper filter. Coffee to volume is very dense for shipping.

Pod Coffee: Single use plastic pods with a foil lid inside a plastic bag
inside a cardboard box. Coffee to volume is very sparse for shipping.

The benefit of not having to use a spoon is worth all the extra trash? Now
with DRM?

~~~
eddieroger
Living up to your username there.

------
jgh
Well, if you like coffee and are in the US (or Canada maybe now, I'm not sure)
I'd recommend checking out Tonx (www.tonx.org) I've been subscribed for about
a year and a half now and can say that I really love everything they send us.

It's not going to get you some instant Keurig coffee but honestly you don't
have 10 minutes in the morning to brew something decent? Like put it on and
then get dressed or something.

------
jareds
So what is an option for easily brewing a single cup of coffee without pods
that will lock you into a specific machine? The things that I like about my
Keurig are that you can get 4 to 6 cups before having to refill the water tank
and that it’s easy to clean. While I don’t mind having to throw away a filter
I would like to avoid having to refill a machine with water every time I want
another cup of coffee.

~~~
knappador
French press. 0% packaging garbage, extracts 100% of the good of coffee.
Numerous suppliers. Compatible with any hot water devices and coffee
packaging. Larger models are easily configured to produce single or several
cup amounts. Portable models can get you out the door as soon as the water is
hot and you can drink on the way.

~~~
hudibras
Clean up takes a little longer than hand-dripping, though.

------
Hawkee
I could never justify the cost of a Keurig when a traditional coffee maker
costs just 20% the price. After using a drip machine for many years I finally
decided to brave a more unique solution, the Aeropress. Now I know what great
coffee tastes like. I tried a Keurig equivalent recently and I can't believe
how much worse it tastes. With a Keurig you pay a premium price for poor
quality coffee.

~~~
eddieroger
For me, my Keurig is a combination of speed, convenience and utility. The
coffee it makes is a method for caffeine delivery, not coffee enjoyment. On
the weekends or when I have more time, I'll make a better cup of coffee.
Monday morning when I'm trying to get to work, I'll grab a travel mug of
Keurig.

------
Osiris
I suppose that one of the benefits of not drinking coffee is not needing to
worry about all of this.

The lunch room at the office has a Keurig machine and it gets jammed a lot
because of the air pressure differential (Denver is at 5200 feet). If you
don't properly puncture the package when you insert it, the air pressure
causes something to go wrong and the machine jams up.

------
utopkara
Good luck to them. Their coffee machines/designs are horrible. Hopefully this
will cost them a huge market share and people will drink less plastic.

[http://www.coffeedetective.com/is-the-plastic-used-in-
keurig...](http://www.coffeedetective.com/is-the-plastic-used-in-keurig-kcups-
safe.html)

------
Zelphyr
So now I have to ONLY buy approved pods so I can drink coffee and tea that
tastes like shit? No thanks. I'll keep buying my whole bean and using my
AeroPress. Not as convenient but they're also not greedy doucecopters.

------
jessaustin
This strategy seems kind of backwards to me. Keurig isn't a dominant household
appliance marketer using that position to jumpstart a lucrative tie-in
sideline. While that would be regrettable for consumers, it might actually
work for the marketer. Rather, they are a food marketer who will attempt to
defend their "primary" business with a tenuous temporary lead in a kitchen
appliance category. How long will it be until Hamilton-Beach, Panasonic,
Oster, or KitchenAid notice this market oddity and stomp them flat? Maybe
Keurig should just roast better coffee?

------
drdaeman
Well, that's disgusting. Like printer cartridge vendors.

Luckily, this applies only to pods and guess probably can't do anything like
that with the machines using whole beans.

------
m_mueller
This reminds me very much of the situation we had here in Switzerland. Two
years ago Nestle's Swiss patent on their capsules expired, so now the market
gets flooded with third party 'compatible' capsules. Lately they've introduced
new Nespresso machines that automatically eject the used capsules using an
electric motor. This has introduced much smaller tolerances, so the machine
often gets stuck on third party capsules.

------
pwenzel
I think I'll stick to my Chemex and compost my grounds.

------
kgermino
>third-party pod refills that often retail for 5-25% less than what Keurig
charges

How expensive are these pods? I certainly understand going generic to save 25%
but a K-cup machine strikes me as a premium product. Maybe I'm missing
something, but I'd think the people willing/able to pay extra for a high end
coffee maker wouldn't waste time experimenting with generics to save 5% (what,
a couple cents a cup at most?).

~~~
AUmrysh
It's about convenience. Also consider that many workplaces provide the Keurig
machine in common areas (kitchens, cafeterias) for employees to use their own
k-cups with. One of my former employers actually had a contract with their
vending machine provider where the Keurig machines were provided for free, but
they were required to purchase a minimum monthly k-cup amount from the vendor.

The reasoning was that "a lot of coffee is being thrown out in the afternoon",
so they wanted to cut waste by using the Keurig machine in the afternoon when
fewer people were making coffee. When you actually do the math, an entire pot
of coffee (10 cups) cost the same as a single Keurig cup. The logic didn't
seem very sound to me, and I suspect it had more to do with the convenience of
making a single cup and not having to clean up after yourself.

The k-cups cost about 30 to 50 cents each, unless you buy thousands of them.

------
brianbreslin
Didn't their patent on the keurig machines expire recently? These machines
were invented decades ago, only hitting mainstream in the last 5 years.

~~~
bunderbunder
Yup. Hence this move - they still want to be the only ones selling K-cups.

~~~
thrillgore
After the patents expired, I noticed that Kroger released their own "Simple
Truth" coffee pods that are the smaller, paper-lined ones that you can
recycle. Oh, they also taste better than the Keurig K-Cups.

------
joesmo
"Such lock-out technology cannot be justified based on any purported consumer
benefit, and Green Mountain itself has admitted that the lock-out technology
is not essential for the new brewers’ function. Like its exclusionary
agreements, this lock-out technology is intended to serve anticompetitive and
unlawful ends."

This is not different from any other DRM mechanism. Unfortunately, that also
makes it legal.

------
jotm
Well, I guess it's back to the good old coffee machines, then.

------
jcampbell1
Does anyone know of a source for generic K-Cups that are decent quality? I
seriously thought about doing it as a startup as it seemed untapped when I was
looking.

~~~
teach
This may not be what you're asking, but my wife and I have found that San
Francisco Bay's single serve coffees[1] are quite good (better than most
K-cups) and are cheaper since they don't use Keurig's design. A win-win from
our perspective.

We buy them at Costco.

[1] [http://www.sanfranciscobaycoffee.com/index.php/thoughts-
on-o...](http://www.sanfranciscobaycoffee.com/index.php/thoughts-on-onecups/)

------
blueskin_
...and now, nobody technical will buy one.

------
corresation
I believe both Tassimo and the "Nespresso" already have DRM, although they
pitch it under the premise that it's a coded system for the perfect brew.

So in many ways the Keurig is late to the party.

~~~
ehPReth
Chris R. Chapman did some reversing work on the Tassimo barcodes - could be a
fun read: [http://www.chapmanconsulting.ca/post/2007/11/29/Hacking-
the-...](http://www.chapmanconsulting.ca/post/2007/11/29/Hacking-the-Tassimo-
single-serve-coffee-machine.aspx)

~~~
joezydeco
Note that the new Nespresso "Vertuoline" capsules have put the barcode in a
more difficult place. DRM escalation?

[http://www.singleserveespresso.com/pictures/NespressoVertuoL...](http://www.singleserveespresso.com/pictures/NespressoVertuoLineCapsule.jpg)

------
magic8ball
To play's devil advocate and stop the circle jerking, let's do an intellectual
exercise and try to think about why this might not be the dumbest decision
ever. Maybe it could be more than just a ploy to increase sales of 1st party
cups. Maybe it's about Quality control.

I grew up playing a lot of Nintendo games. SNES. N64. Gamecube. Wii. There was
one thing I noticed about it. Nintendo always made the best stuff. They made
the best controllers. The best games. The best memory cards. I had a 3rd party
memory card that said it stored "56 blocks." But if you tried to put more than
20 on it, you'd sometimes find your data magically lost in the morning.So
despite the GNU/Linux ethos (I'm typing this on a Linux machine), freedom to
use 3rd parties does not always give a better user experience. More than that,
I found Nintendo also had to approve every single game and accessory that was
compatible with their system (seal of approval). So even that was considered
the good stuff. This seal keeps a certain floor of quality control. Back in
the days of the Atari, people were making all sorts of shit for it. Stupid
consumers would buy it, use it with their Atari, and be frustrated. Nintendo
forbade this and made sure everything that was associated with their product
met a certain standard, thus giving a good experience. So maybe, Keurig will
use their DRM for this. A way to help consumers, perhaps, figure out which
cups are good.

~~~
pessimizer
>freedom to use 3rd parties does not always give a better user experience.

This is either a straw man or only very pedantically correct.

Is anyone here claiming that 3rd parties _always_ give a better user
experience? If not, it's a straw man.

If you are actually referring to the "freedom to use 3rd parties" not giving a
better user experience - the user experience is either going to be equivalent
or better, because freedom to use a 3rd party != must use a 3rd party.

