
Tokyo WWII firebombing, the most deadly bombing raid, remembered 70 years on - damian2000
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-03-09/tokyo-wwii-firebombing-remembered-70-years-on/6287486
======
Anechoic
If you're interested in the context of this type of "strategic" bombing, and
how it played into the U.S. decision to use the atomic bombs in WWII, listen
to the "Logical Insanity" episode of Dan Carlin's Hardcore History podcast:
[http://www.dancarlin.com/product/hardcore-
history-42-blitz-l...](http://www.dancarlin.com/product/hardcore-
history-42-blitz-logical-insanity/)

It's long, but quite informative.

~~~
Mithaldu
I wish this were at the top for this thread. Dan Carlin's summaries and
analyses of the decision making at that time are wonderfully thought-
provoking. The concept of logical insanity in particular is one i see
consistently reproduced in every part of modern society.

------
baddox
To add to the horror, realize that the vast majority of Americans will
adamantly defend these bombings as well as the atomic bombings, using verbatim
talking points taught to them as children in public schools.

~~~
woodman
Note: The following is written from the perspective of an individual who
accepts that states are necessary, and that war is justifiable. This isn't
something I personally believe, but something that the vast majority of people
do - not just Americans.

I don't remember any talking points being taught to me as a child, but I guess
that would be the case with any good brainwashing. I am familiar with the
justifications for targeting Japanese civilians for conventional and nuclear
bombing though, something along the lines of Japan being prepared for total
war - down to child combatants with sharpened sticks. In war you have two
options for ending hostilities, complete annihilation or political resolution
(surrender, cease fire, etc). If Japan went into total war mode, and they made
it clear that they would if necessary, then they remove the political
resolution option. So with that in mind, it is not a stretch to say that
firebombing and nuking hundreds of thousands saved millions of Japanese lives.

Consider the fact that this firebombing occurred 1945-03-09, and the Japanese
were still wanting to fight for another five months, until the second atomic
bomb drop on 1945-08-09. The only thing that brought them to the table was the
idea that their enemy possessed a weapon where a single bomb could level a
city, they had no idea how many atomic bombs existed.

~~~
ekianjo
> The only thing that brought them to the table was the idea that their enemy
> possessed a weapon where a single bomb could level a city

Utterly wrong. This has been shown many times that the A-bomb was not the
decisive part. It was the upcoming involvement of Russians on the Japanese
front. Please stop spreading explanations for 5-years olds.

~~~
nolok
Not sure why you're being downvoted, this is widely accepted that both the
bomb and the soviet invasion had equivalent weight in their surrender, with
some historians saying the soviet declaration of war was more important.

To add on that, _at the time of the surrender_ , the long term effect of the
bomb was not known to the japanese and as such the nuclear bombing wasn't the
worst city bombing they suffered, neither in terms of infrastructure damage or
loss of life.

Some more information for those interested

[http://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/u6qqo/there_h...](http://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/u6qqo/there_has_been_some_controversy_on_the_true/)

[http://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/2y98yc/did_th...](http://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/2y98yc/did_the_soviet_union_have_a_large_impact_on_the/)

~~~
Crito
> _" Not sure why you're being downvoted"_

The "5 year old" comment probably has something to do with it. HN doesn't tend
to downvote people into the gray just because they are saying something that
other people disagree with, _unless_ the comment is also not particularly
civil.

~~~
FeeTinesAMady
Yes, they do. See my comment near the top. Nothing disrespectful about it,
just opinionated.

~~~
Crito
I see only two of your comments in recent history are downvoted into the gray:

This one is not civil, as it personally attacks another commenter:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9169613](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9169613)
_" That says a lot about you."_

This one is in defense of the less-than-civil comment:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9169781](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9169781)

I say things that many people disagree with _all the time_ on HN, but pretty
much the only times that I am downvoted into the gray are when I am not civil.
For instance, the _only_ comment of mine that has been grayed in this
discussion is this one:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9169426](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9169426)
That comment is little more than a personal attack, and was therefore
downvoted.

------
timr
There's an interactive map at the Tokyo-Edo museum (great museum; highly worth
your time if you're there) that shows the progression of the bombing campaign
over time:

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y_biWi-
lXTM](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y_biWi-lXTM)

The scale of that is mind-boggling. I had no idea, the first time I saw it,
the amount of destruction involved. It rivals Hiroshima and Nagasaki, but we
(in the US) almost never hear about it.

To put a more human face on it:

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_Tokyo#mediaviewer/Fi...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_Tokyo#mediaviewer/File:Tokyo_kushu_1945-3.jpg)

------
avoidsilkboard
Moral of the story : When in war, be on the winning side.

~~~
rdl
As long as you preface that with "Avoid war if at all possible, but " then I
think it's quite reasonable.

------
howlingfantods
Everyone should watch Grave of the Fireflies. And then cry for a week.

------
coupdejarnac
This reminds me of Robert McNamara's rule for proportionality in the movie The
Fog of War. What amount of brutality is necessary to achieve a political
objective?

------
carsongross
"Just following orders."

God, help me never.

