
An Open Letter to My CEO - randycupertino
https://medium.com/@taliajane/an-open-letter-to-my-ceo-fb73df021e7a#.lsw0ksid2
======
helen842000
I found this article very confusing. While the wage is very low ($19000) the
overall issue is the cost of rent. I could understand if the letter was
directed to her landlord. Cost of utilities, travel and food would all be
liveable for a year if the rent was halved by a room mate or rent control. It
doesn't make sense to get mad at the company providing you with most of what
you need to survive.

Also surely you know before deciding on the Bay Area that you're going to have
either a min acceptable salary or a max acceptable rent. Saying yes to two
things that don't add up is a recipe for a cycle of self inflicted misery.

~~~
scottkduncan
Companies factor in local cost of living into their salary packages and the
author is pointing out the business problems (i.e. high turnover of entry
level employees) caused caused when Yelp failed to do this.

Salaries in New York are higher than those in Des Moines, and if companies
want the benefits associated with locating in the Bay Area they are going to
have to pay employees more. Even entry-level and lower-skilled ones.

~~~
helen842000
Companies like Yelp will only take notice when they aren't able to hire in the
Bay Area for entry level roles. They can already see that it's heading that
way, that's why they're moving support to AZ. It's cheaper to move their
entire support operation to a different state than it is to provide a Bay Area
wage.

------
firebones
To everyone criticizing the author for various "failings" such as lack of
personal finance skills, getting an English degree, choosing to live in the
Bay area: exactly whom do you think is going to fill this role under the
parameters the employer is offering? Would it help you be happier if it was
someone in the same situation who chose _not_ to raise the issue publicly?

~~~
richardwhiuk
Nobody, until the employer puts up wages to make the job pay enough? That's
how a free market works - if people are willing to do the work at an absurdly
low wage, that's what'll happen.

If you want a different outcome, you either need some form of housing change
in SF, organised labour, or realistic minimum wage laws.

~~~
mchahn
> That's how a free market works - if people are willing to do the work at an
> absurdly low wage, that's what'll happen.

Or if companies only pay low wages then the workers are screwed and have to
live poor. There is a reason unions were formed.

~~~
blisterpeanuts
How was this person screwed, in particular? Was it not simple jealousy
stemming from the fact that she worked in the same building with high earning
engineers?

It's fallacious to suppose you deserve more money, merely because others in
your proximity make more money. This is pure entitlement, devoid of ambition
to achieve through hard work.

~~~
tortoise_face
What? Maybe she deserves more money because she works full time and can't
afford to eat? Where are you getting this jealousy angle from?

~~~
blisterpeanuts
If you read the article, you would discover that she's jealous of the
engineers and others who get more freebies, better pay, etc.

------
elliotec
What a horrible idea. How could this person think that this would benefit them
in any way? She got fired, and secured herself a spot in endless unemployment.
In San Francisco, no less, where her mounting debt prevents her from buying
groceries and paying her phone bill.

Seriously, I would never ever hire someone who wrote something like this. This
is a one way ticket to being eternally jobless. Her best next course of action
is to delete the hell out of that post.

And then she has the gall to ask for donations to her paypal and venmo? Lord.
Give me a break.

~~~
karterk
I'm saddened to read such dismissive comments on HN. I think it takes someone
to have been in a similar position to understand the plight of the OP. The CEO
had a chance to fix this and do the right thing, but firing her was the easy
thing to do.

> Seriously, I would never ever hire someone who wrote something like this.

The fact that nobody writes about these issues is the reason why some
companies take their non-tech employees for granted.

~~~
argonaut
To be fair, companies are able to treat people like this (is not just tech
companies - ask many entry level employees in many non-tech industries in New
York how they're doing) because _they can_.

It's simple supply and demand. There is an oversupply of people with her
background who are willing to endure minimum wages. A lot of these people are
willing to endure entry level jobs because they won't "settle" for something
short of their dream (a white collar writing/media/comedy job, in her case).
That's a perfectly fine goal, but understand that you're competing with
thousands and thousands of other people with similar or superior educations.

Either accept the resulting low wages, or join a profession that is actually
facing a shortage of labor (e.g. nurse, plumber, etc.)

~~~
pm24601
Or vote for a high minimum wage and Bernie Sanders

~~~
stray
Prices will only go up till the new minimum wage is equally painful.

Yes. We need our poorest to be less poor. Yes. We need all of our people to
have access to health care and a decent place to live.

But it's not enough. Not really.

~~~
JoeAltmaier
Minimum wage used to be adjusted for inflation. That hasn't happened in
decades. Its past time.

And its a myth that prices go up according to minimum wage. In truth its a
very weak influence on inflation. Prices will probably not change much at all.
Our entire economy does not depend on what we pay the lowest earners.

~~~
stray
It is not a myth that as the supply of money is increased, prices go up to
reach equilibrium. Supply/demand works in both directions.

~~~
placeybordeaux
The supply of money is not related to the minimum wage. The supply of money is
increased by issuing bonds.

------
ctvo
If I worked at Yelp I might be questioning why we spend so much money on
frivolous things like coconut flavored water vs. providing our customer
support co-workers with a better wage.

This applies to tech companies more widely. Would you take less snacks, less
free beer, less hiring gimmick benefits to increase the wages of those making
the least at your company?

~~~
SilasX
Taxes are high enough (especially on high income employees) that if the
employer can count it as an expense, and it doesn't count as employee income,
then it's worth providing as long as the employee would be willing pay ~60% of
its cost from their post-tax income. Factor in bulk discounts and the figure
is more like 50%.

Unfortunately, the debate on payroll/income taxation never really addresses
such distortions, and gets stuck on "come on, an extra 10% isn't as big a deal
for you".

------
mrbill
Never write these kinds of letters unless you're sure the first response isn't
going to be "You're only tech support. Good luck finding a new job."

In fact, it's never a good idea to write these kinds of things in the first
place.

Heck, I work for a great company that provides free snacks (credit for the
vending machines) and unlimited free sodas/sparking waters/coconut water/etc,
and I'm not going to complain about any of it, even if I dislike some of the
flavors or my favorite is out of stock for a day or two...

~~~
randycupertino
> In fact, it's never a good idea to write these kinds of things in the first
> place.

She was trying for her own version of "The things we think but do not say!"
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TohbD69ugSA](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TohbD69ugSA)

------
opheicus
The only thing I got out of this was that the author needs to learn personal
finance skills.

If she just got a roommate and sold her car, she could easily afford to eat
and more. I can't imagine how one person who claims to spend a lot of time at
work manages to rack up a $120 PG&E bill.

~~~
stray
I am astounded that someone with so little compassion exists.

~~~
dominotw
when all else fails, pull out the appeal to emotion card.

------
firloop
Could her point have been made about the state of bottom ranking tech workers
without naming Yelp? This is not a rhetorical question.

Specifics of the author's personal situation aside, it's unclear why any well
funded tech company in San Francisco is paying poverty wages for positions
that seem to require more aptitude than similar paying jobs. It doesn't make
sense from an economical standpoint if employee churn is as high as she
claims, because hiring/interviewing/training costs a non-zero amount.

~~~
dominotw
>it's unclear why any well funded tech company in San Francisco is paying
poverty wages

Because they can? Isn't it how it works.

------
blizkreeg
This is just not the way to deal with the problem, shaming the CEO and company
publicly in full view of the Internet, more so when you're a current employee
of the company.

This is juvenile, imho.

Did she first try reaching out to the CEO privately? She could've sent this
same message to him in an email to get his attention. I'm absolutely
empathetic to her situation (living on $16K a year is something I can't even
begin to fathom) but this ain't the way to go about it. It's not slavery.

Yelp (and many, many other corporations) can and should do better, in
providing a livable wage to their employees. The coconut waters, roasted
almonds, and kombucha should go away. It's a waste of money appeasing to
overly pampered engineers (I'm an engineer, btw) and saving costs paying
brutal wages to the lower-rung employees.

Companies need to learn to shed fat, not muscle.

All that aside, this really shows poor judgement on the part of the person
venting like this in public.

~~~
jsprogrammer
You didn't explain why this way was incorrect, juvenile, or poor judgement.

~~~
blizkreeg
I did. Read what I said again. "This is just not the way to deal with the
problem, shaming the CEO and company publicly in full view of the Internet,
more so when you're a current employee of the company. ".

Downvote this, but it doesn't change the fact.

~~~
jsprogrammer
I can't downvote your post.

That doesn't explain _why_. Those are just statements of your opinion of the
situation.

Why is it incorrect to shame a CEO and company publicly?

------
SilasX
She dismisses it as irrelevant, but this part (in italics) really stood out as
the important insight:

>Coming out of college without much more than freelancing and tutoring under
my belt, I felt it was fair that I start out working in the customer support
section of Yelp/Eat24 before I’d be qualified to transfer to media. Then,
after I had moved and got firmly stuck in this apartment with this debt, I was
told I’d have to work in support for an entire year before I would be able to
move to a different department. _A whole year answering calls and talking to
customers just for the hope that someday I’d be able to make memes and twitter
jokes about food. If you follow me on twitter, which you don’t, you’d know
that these are things I already do_.

It seems she would have done better to get mentorship in building up awareness
of her tweets so she could have a kind of "portfolio" to show off to media
companies.

This is not to put the blame on her, but highlight a more general problem with
the labor market, and how bad it is at connecting candidates with positions
they're qualified for, and how employers end up putting unnecessary barriers
as a filter. If the labor market were more transparent, we would have less
problem with discrimination as well, since employers could see more of the
good aspects of candidates rather than judge merely by the bad.

~~~
yuhong
One of the reason why I want to limit or remove anti-discrimination laws is
that I want to focus on more effective and less costly methods instead. I
suggested a compromise to limit the laws to manual labor and the like.

------
yuhong
Personally, I am more interested in the general practice of doing things like
this than the exact nature of the complaints. Particularly, I want to fix the
problems and the CEO should be able to respond too.

------
Tiksi
Depending on how much reach this gets, it may have been a brilliant career
move for her, though I don't think it was intentional really. (Edit: That is,
I think she was being genuine when writing this and I don't think this was a
"PR Stunt" or whatever the individual level of that would be)

She has a degree in English and wants to be a writer. She writes a real
person's perspective on income inequality during the presidential election
debates where it's a major campaign issue. On top of that she even gets fired
for it, making the whole thing even more authentic.

I wouldn't be surprised if she manages to get a job offer from a left leaning
publication relatively soon.

~~~
freyr
After receiving a job offer, she loaded up on credit card debt and signed a
lease she couldn't afford. This was an obvious mistake, which led to a
situation she should have seen coming. And that's OK. We've all made decisions
that look obviously wrong in hindsight.

The problem, for me, is that her post doesn't acknowledge any personal
responsibility in the situation. It seems more intended to extort her employer
by shaming them and placing the blame squarely on their shoulders. I can't
imagine this looks good to many employers.

------
err4nt
I read this almost as a form of 'suicide by cop' in the workplace.

To me it reads as though the author is unhappy with the job they signed up
for, but instead of exerting the mental fortitude to resign, is instead
throwing a public tantrum lashing out at the CEO in public.

What was the imagined outcome? All that will come of tarnishing the employers
brand and degrading yourself like this will be an immediate dismissal and a
social 'blacklisting' preventing future job opportunities.

Is that the desired outcome? I feel like this discussion thread is going to
outlive the authors career.

------
argonaut
The biggest issue here is the rent. You can definitely find places in the East
Bay, near BART stations, for less than $1000 for a bedroom/studio. Add a
roommate, and you're looking at less than $500 per month for rent.

And if you're willing to live in a somewhat crappier area, you can might be
able to go as low as $300-400/month with a roommate.

~~~
source99
$1245 per month for rent = 80% of her salary. $1245 / 0.8 = $1556 after taxes.
$1556 * 12 months / year = $18675. Assume tax rate of 25%. Gross pay before
taxes = $25,000 $25,000 / 8 hours per day / 5 days / week / 50 weeks / year =
$12.50 / hour.

------
tptacek
Why are Yelp's CSRs based in SFBA to begin with?

~~~
hspak
Stoppelman tweeted a couple hours ago that they're going to expand support
into AZ.

~~~
pfarnsworth
s/expand/transfer/

------
dominotw
follows her twitter link.

>> 30 yr old white dudes are evil mansplainers ...something something, paypal
me money.

Closes browser tab.

Is there some sort of secret template out there for e-begging, I don't
understand why I am to give her my money. Why particularly her, what about the
rest of customer reps at Yelp.

~~~
fisadev
If you read the comments on the article you will understand those tweets.

> "I don't understand why I am to give her my money."

Maybe because you are a good human being who wants to help another human being
in need?

> "Why particularly her, what about the rest of customer reps at Yelp"

She's asking for help because she needs it, as much as the rest. She isn't
telling you that you shouldn't help the others. She is even proposing things
that would benefit all of them.

If you can help them all, great! If you can help just one, help one, either
she, or any of the others. Nobody here is telling you "you should help her
instead". Not even her.

And "if I help one I'm not helping the others" is no excuse to not to help
anyone. Not being able to help them all is no excuse to not to help at least
somebody.

~~~
makemoniesonlin
"her", not "she"

------
tobbyb
If we dehumanize others we dehumanize ourselves. We are not objects, we are
not economic systems, we are living social beings with all the flaws and all
the potential, each and every one of us.

The individual clearly has to wisen up, and this reads like a welcome to the
real world but that should not detract in any way from the real suffering
caused by exploitative wages.

If a full time Yelp 'job' does not allow an individual to afford basics like
shelter and food, let alone education, healthcare or family on what basis does
it qualify to call itself a 'job'? This is exploitation.

The individual is not demanding luxuries from life, it can't be 'entitled' to
expect basics like food and shelter after a day's work. So is it the
individual or Yelp that is behaving in an entitled manner? And to fire someone
for pointing this feels fundamentally wrong and boneheaded.

There is zero point for Zuckerberg or any other SFO millionaire to have
billions in their accounts they can't use while real human beings who work for
them have to suffer like this for months on end with rice bowls. How does that
make any sense, in any way?

The cold and impoverished view on this thread justifies dismissing out of hand
any 'concerns' from engineers on threads about outsourcing, work visas or any
social thread that requires empathy as simply the market speaking. If you
can't empathize with others don't expect empathy when it comes to your own
personal situation?

You can't complain about outsourcing and also justify the market and
unrealistic wages as one logically leads to another.

~~~
instantaneous
> _If a full time Yelp 'job' does not allow an individual to afford basics
> like shelter and food, let alone education, healthcare or family on what
> basis does it qualify to call itself a 'job'?_

It's an entry level position that typically pays about $20k-$30k/year. While
this salary may provide every 20-something with no prior work experience the
lifestyle they desire, it's definitely a livable wage. Regarding healthcare,
she writes: "I’ve got vision, dental, the normal health insurance stuff — and
as far as I can tell, I don’t have to pay for any of it!" Did you even read
the article?

> _This is exploitation._

Oh, please. She accepted the job offer and salary, and then leased an
apartment she couldn't afford. Now she is blaming her employer for her
financial predicament, without taking any personal responsibility in the
situation. It's hard to muster much empathy.

> _The individual is not demanding luxuries from life_

Make no mistake, if you're in an entry level position and have no prior work
experience, living without roommates in one of the most expensive housing
markets in the world _is_ a luxury.

Her claim that she's starving should be taken with a grain of salt, in light
of the photos she shared online:

[http://alotofrice.pixieset.com/thatsalotofrice/](http://alotofrice.pixieset.com/thatsalotofrice/)

Traditionally, when somebody wants to live in an apartment/city they can't
afford, they find roommates, a second job, or a better job. Publicly shaming
your employer online for your own bad financial decisions is a new one to me.

~~~
ytpete
It seems like part of the disconnect is the idea of an "entry level job" that
is not a permanent, lifelong career. This is (or at least used to be) a
fixture of the US workforce: you start out in a non-ideal position to gain
experience and prove yourself. You're not making enough to own a new car, buy
a house, start a family, put kids through college, etc., but you don't expect
that right out of the gate: you live frugally, with roommates, and invest in
your career until you _later_ attain a better-paying job.

But two ways that seems to be breaking down lately: 1\. More and more people
are getting stuck in entry-level jobs permanently, unable to find any opening
to move up to a better-paying career that's sustainable for life. 2\. Younger
generations may have a growing sense of entitlement - increasingly appalled at
the notion of scrounging for your first N years our of college, rather than
immediately living a glamorous, 'Sex in the City'-style urban lifestyle.

I think part of the backlash against this post is that the author's words seem
to place her firmly in the 2nd category - she's eating out and living in her
own place (in the most expensive metro area in North America) while
complaining that she 'feels' poor... and complains about having to work "a
whole year" in an entry-level position before the prospect of a promotion.

------
thrillgore
It's a real shitty situation. The Bay Area has a very clear rent control
issue. But in the real world, when these opportunity costs stop being,
companies relocate and allocate resources to regions where living wages and
happy workers make sense.

But i'm struggling to be sympathetic here. Maybe not being in SF contributes
to that perspective.

------
hwstar
Isn't employment-at-will wonderful? /sarcasm

It would be way more difficult to fire someone in any other developed country.

------
MajorLOL
Long winding story for the final line to be the real sell;

"...but any help until I find new employment would be extremely appreciated.
My paypal is tjbenora@gmail.com."

TL;DR I don't like my job, give me money.

~~~
ReadingInBed
That was updated later, after she got let go for writing that piece.

~~~
MCRed
Lets see, english major up to her ears in debt, moves to San Francisco for a
CSR job?

I think we need to up the math requirements for english degrees.

Alas you can't teach common sense.

I would be a lot more sympathetic if I weren't constantly being bombarded by
BernieBros insisting we need "Free" college educations and all kinds of other
handouts.

Sorry, I grew up poor, I didn't get lucky, I worked hard. I made my own luck.

She made her own bed, and then set it on fire.

~~~
keyanp
I agree, the post was a terrible idea. And yes it comes off as a bit whiny and
yes there are certainly improvements that can be made to her personal finance
skill. All that said, your comment is not fair.

Have we reached a point where only those with STEM degrees and $100k+ salaries
deserve to live in SF? You didn't just work hard, you were lucky enough to
have the aptitude and interest in a field with stable job opportunities.
Others may not have the same interests or abilities. And how boring would it
be if we were all engineers anyway?

The author is frustrated with student debt, stagnant wages, and an inflated SV
housing market. All valid concerns that millions of other Americans are
echoing today. To top it off she is treated as expendable and fired as soon as
she starts speaking out. Given that, maybe you could have some compassion? Or
at least not resort to making an ad hominem attack?

~~~
wanderer2323
Here you go, using the same word that got "the author" in her situation.
'Deserve'. I don't know whether she - or anyone else 'deserves' to live in SF.
But I know that she was not able to - or, at least she was not able to find
the standards of living she wanted.

Being able to is a math question. Take your salary A after taxes, subtract B =
rent, subtract C = payments on the loan you are planning to take to cover the
move, subtract D = other monthly costs of living, subtract E = food costs.
A-B-C-D-E = X . If X is less than acceptable (or even less than zero) don't
move.

'Deserve', the word you (and "the author", although she does not spell it
directly) use, is a proxy for 'wanna wanna wanna'. Guess what, even if you
'wanna wanna wanna' ('deserve', 'have a dream to') to live in SF, that won't
help you a bit. An adult is supposed to be able to understand this. That's why
there some of us don't have much compassion for the author.

P.S. 'Deserve' is also a political tool, most often used lately to justify
wealth redistribution. That's why user MCRed immediately connects the author
to the Berniebros. I do too.

~~~
foldr
These are people who are being employed by companies in SF and yet who are not
paid enough to live in SF. It's a disgrace. You can get people to fill these
jobs because a lot of people are desperate right now, but that doesn't make it
ok. If the author hadn't taken this job, someone else would have, and that
person would be in exactly the same dire financial straights.

~~~
wanderer2323
Did you even _read_ the OP? "The author" moved from somewhere to SF, found a
job and took it. She was not desperate, not without stretching the meaning of
the word too far.

~~~
foldr
You clearly didn't read my post, because I didn't say that the author of the
article was desperate. My point was that even if a job radically underpays,
it's still possible to fill it right now. Yelp are exploiting people who for
whatever reason are willing to accept offers for jobs that don't pay a living
wage. Judging by her description of her hourly wage she's not making more than
$30,000 a year, even if you assume that she's working 7 days per week every
week. More realistically, she's probably making more like $25,000. I lived in
DC from 2007-2010 on $23,000 with roommates, in a city that was much cheaper
than SF is now, and it was basically impossible. I certainly ended up getting
into debt. I would not judge someone who is having a hard time paying their
living expenses in SF on that sort of wage.

Also, why are you putting "the author" in scare quotes? She is the author of
the article we're discussing.

------
SchrodingersDog
test

------
SchrodingersDog
Yelp CEO and his HR can bla-blah-blah all they want but reality is this: the
company and its executives are making millions while some of their lowest paid
coworkers are literally starving. This is f..d up.

I think the issue that Talia Jane is raising here is that the company (Yelp)
can easily fix this problem for their own low pay employees by raising wages
or subsidizing housing but instead the company decides to turn a blind eye on
this issue.

What will it cost Yelp to raise standard of living for their lowest paid co-
workers? a few million a year perhaps? Will it really make a huge difference
in profits for the company in the long run?

Is it all about making money for the corporations in America today? Is this
the world we want our kids to live in?

