
The Copenhagen Wheel: Electric pedal-assist motor in the hub of a bicycle wheel - nkurz
http://www.citylab.com/commute/2014/07/if-an-electric-bike-is-ever-going-to-hit-it-big-in-the-us-its-this-one/375167/
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Theodores
In a normal bicycle shop it is very hard to actually sell an actual electric
bike.

There hasn't been anything fundamentally wrong with the product there just
isn't meaningful demand. It is not as if people see the bike, want one but
cannot afford it. It is not as if people want the electric bike but find the
product falls short of expectations. Only a few brands actually have electric
bikes, e.g. Giant, and the general idea is pedal assist up to 15 mph because
of legal reasons.

The detachable battery pack of such 'conventional' electric bikes is practical
for the typical customer as you can take the battery out and recharge it
without running some power cord to the bike shed/street. This all-in-one wheel
lacks that practical aspect so it will be another far-too-clever-idea that
goes nowhere. Also, the iphone hookup is great in principle but, as per the
Giant e-bikes, all you need is a simple switch between eco and power modes on
the handlebar. Your legs can do all the other aspects of power management far
more effectively than some bluetooth gizmo.

I think that the key to winning people over to electric bikes is for cities
like London and Paris to upgrade their fleets of hire bikes to be electric.
People would have a go, see what fun electric bikes are, experience how safe
they are due to the manoeuvrability that comes with that helpful bit of extra
power, go home and think about getting one for their commute or leisure needs.

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awjr
I think the issue with electric bikes is that until you try one out you have
no idea what you are missing out on. Recently I was able to test a direct
drive (The motor is in the bottom bracket and assists you pedalling). It's
phenomenal.

I could easily go up very steep hills without a lot of effort and I weigh
270lb. I could even vary the help it was giving me and choose to have more of
a workout.

What I would suggest is that if you are on the heavy side or intend to carry
heavy loads, direct drive is the best for you.

One negative side to the e-bike legislation is that in the UK, it's speed
limited to assist up to 15MPH and on 250W motors. To a certain extent I have
no issue with the assist cutting out at 15MPH (20 would be nicer), however the
250W limit reduces torque and if you had a load of shopping with you, this
could be an issue.

The issue I find with the Copenhagen wheel is that it is trying to think for
you and you control the wheel through your phone. When riding, I prefer not to
remove my hands from the handle bar. Most if not all ebike configurations
place the motor control near a thumb as if you were holding on to the handle
bar. My criticism may be unfounded, but you need control sometimes at a
moments notice.

The other issue is one of battery charging. Most people that I know that have
an ebike, have bought two chargers, one for work and one for home, and charge
their batteries at both ends by removing the battery from the bike and leaving
the bike locked up in the parking lot. The copenhagen wheel doesn't seem to
support that idea.

~~~
participle
The kind of ebike you're recommending is called a mid drive, not a direct
drive. Mid drives connect to the bike chain so it combines your bike's gears
with the motor, that's where all that great hill climbing ability comes from.

Direct drive is just a regular hub type that sits in the center of the wheel.
They're not so good since they do not use the bike's gears, you end up with
cogging when pedaling, it distributes the bike's weight unevenly and low power
restrictions make it fairly useless for hills. There's also geared hubs these
days which look similar but work a little better.

Course, any of these types are better than the copenhagen wheel.

Personally my dream ebike would be a Bosch mid drive connected to a nuvinci
internal shifting hub via a gates carbon drive, all mounted on a full
suspension carbon fiber frame with the battery mounted in the center triangle.

~~~
barkingcat
How are these?

[http://www.stealthelectricbikescanada.com/bomber-electric-
bi...](http://www.stealthelectricbikescanada.com/bomber-electric-bike.html)

~~~
participle
I am not a fan of it. You will go faster walking the bike than pedaling due to
cogging so those pedals are mostly for show (or stealth.) And the $10,000
pricetag is just crazy, you could buy an electric zero fx for that. For
reasonably fast speeds I would go with a kit like this from em3ev

[http://em3ev.com/store/index.php?route=product/product&path=...](http://em3ev.com/store/index.php?route=product/product&path=45&product_id=186)

Select the largest battery and fastest speed option, pop that onto a hardtail
MTB from craigslist and you've got a fast ebike with the same range for about
$1700. Plus this is a geared motor so you don't have any drag from cogging, it
just freewheels which makes pedaling and coasting much more fun.

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cypher543
Just in case anyone else is wondering, this is indeed the same wheel that Andy
promoted throughout season 7 of Showtime's "Weeds". I had no idea it was a
real thing, so I assumed this was a joke at first.

~~~
616c
I am really glad I was not the only guy with that reaction. I chuckled out
loud and clicked immediately.

It is more puzzling he could not pull off the idea. Now that I know it is
real, I definitely want one fo these.

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berryg
I recently bought this German bike: [http://en.r-m.de/bike/mixte-nuvinci-hs-
hybrid/](http://en.r-m.de/bike/mixte-nuvinci-hs-hybrid/). It does 45 km/h for
about 50km. You always have to pedal. A cruising speed of 35 km/h is very
realistic. Without breaking a sweat. You can also select for less pedal
assistance and the battery almost lasts 100 km. I consider it very real
alternative for using a car to commute if you have to travel up to 35 km to
work.

~~~
mistermann
I see the power is applied at the pedals rather than the wheel, how do you
like that? Any issues, any concerns about longevity?

~~~
berryg
It has advantages. The center of gravity is in the middle of the bike and at
the 'bottom' of the bike. Electric motor in front wheel makes it more
difficult the steer. Electric motor in the back wheel can cause 'understeer'
especially in winter or on wet roads. The Bosch motor has been around for a
while now and they have a very good reputation. A lot of new e-bikes have
these pedal-powered Bosch motors.

I must add. E-bikes are selling like hotcakes in The Netherlands. The first
people to buy them were 50+ years old. Now 30+ year old people are buying
e-bikes like this one. They are a serious alternative for a small car. These
bikes are not cheap. Like $ 4000,-. But, there is certainly a market for them.
I like to think they are the Tesla version of an e-bike.

~~~
dzhiurgis
Pretty sure what Dutch are buying is these:
[http://www.gazelle.nl/collectie/elektrische-
fietsen/2014/ora...](http://www.gazelle.nl/collectie/elektrische-
fietsen/2014/orange-em-nuvinci)

Yours seems to have advantage (?) of having battery in the middle, but
steering wheel is too far to the front. I hate cycling with my back bent. Both
bikes are missing hub brakes.

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hyperion2010
I was biking to work the other day and had a guy pass me using one of these on
his front wheel. It was completely silent and he practically doubled my speed
on a road bike just cruising. I'm used to being one of the faster commuters,
so my brain did a pretty serious double take. Having had a nasty crash at
normal speed I will say that I would seriously suggest wearing more protective
clothing if you are going to roll with one of these.

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cottonseed
Electric bicycles with pedal assist were ubiquitous in Shanghai 10 years ago.
The most common design I saw had a removable/rechargeable battery that was
mounted on the down tube.

~~~
tokai
Like the one in the second picture of the article?

~~~
cottonseed
Exactly. That was 10 years ago. I never understood why China wasn't exporting
them, unless there's no market.

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tux1968
Great idea, but not sure US$800 price point will be attractive to a large
market. At half that price, these would likely fly off the shelves though.

~~~
dfxm12
According to the article, electric bikes are selling for upwards of $3,000 in
Europe. The best selling electric bikes on Amazon appear to be going for
$1,200-$1,500.

At $800 for the wheel, you save about half compared to a complete electric
bike, and you can use your current or favorite frame.

I agree, if they were cheaper, they'd sell faster, but this appears to be
competitively priced, compared to the rest of the market.

~~~
tromp
On a recent trip to Holland, I saw the ALDI (a cheap grocery store selling
goods from boxes) selling electric bikes for EUR 799 which is under $1100.
There's simply a huge price-range on electric bikes, and picking just one
price point does not make for a convincing argument.

~~~
kennywinker
Reminds me of bicycles in general. You can pick up a used bike for >$100 in
most cities, or you can spend $3k on a sweet carbon fibre racing machine. For
that matter, cars vary in price from >$1000 used to... the sky's the limit.

Until battery prices fall, there will definitely be a high bottom limit for
electric vehicles. The lower that limit gets the more adoption will happen,
for sure. Still, an $800 wheel on a $300-$500 bike is competitive with most
POS electric scooters.

~~~
rahimnathwani
You can get a used bike in Beijing for ¥100 ($16).

Used electric scooters with 30km range and 45km/h top speed can be had for
$250.

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dsr_
My commute is 12 miles by road (8 straight-line); it takes about an hour on
public transportation, or about 45 minutes by car.

Every so often I think about a Segway or an electric bicycle or Acme rocket-
skates or what-have-you. But nothing is ever cheap enough to let me try it out
and not be extremely unhappy at wasting money if it doesn't work out. If they
came with a 30 day no-questions return, or could be rented for a month, I
might find something I like enough to buy.

~~~
oh_sigh
Why not just get a bike and ride that?

~~~
jessaustin
Yeah bicycles actually _can_ be "rented for a month" (or a week or a day or an
hour). There's no way you won't beat the 4 MPH your car is getting.
(Incidentally I hope never to purchase a used car the engine of which has been
subjected to that treatment every weekday for years.)

~~~
schrodinger
Where'd you get 4mph? 12 miles in 45 minutes is 16 MPH, a decent speed to
maintain on a bike.

~~~
soperj
25km an hour is pretty easy on a road bike.

~~~
schrodinger
16mph/25kmh for a short burst, anyone can do. To average that speed for an
hour is something that most people could work up to, but a casual cyclist
probably couldn't do.

~~~
soperj
Even when going through areas with a lot of lights(ie:stop/starts) I still
average over 25km an hour. With a light road bike it really isn't that fast.

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ArkyBeagle
Oatley electronics sells a much less elegant electric bike kit ( you supply
the bike and, I presume, the battery ) for considerably less money.

[http://secure.oatleyelectronics.com//product_info.php?cPath=...](http://secure.oatleyelectronics.com//product_info.php?cPath=116&products_id=776)

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yellowapple
Are there certain bikes that this is compatible with? The photos don't make it
look like it would fit on my current bike. Is it just for road bikes, or would
it work on a mountain bike as well?

Also, has anyone tested this thing out on steep hills?

~~~
DanBC
[https://www.superpedestrian.com/](https://www.superpedestrian.com/)

you could ask them about hills.

> What is the required dropout spacing to fit the Copenhagen Wheel?

> For a single-speed, you need a 120mm dropout spacing and for a multi-speed a
> 135mm dropout is required. If you are unsure about your dropout spacing,
> please contact us and we will help you determine if the Wheel will work with
> your bike.

> Can the Copenhagen Wheel be used with a multi-speed bike?

> Yes, the Copenhagen Wheel is fully compatible with multi-speed bikes. You
> will be able to use it with 7 speed, 8 speed, 9 speed, and 10 speed
> cassettes. If your current wheel is a free-wheel (not cassette), then you
> may require minor derailleur adjustment.

~~~
colbyh
A wheel like this on a road bike is going to cause hell with my Strava
rankings :-(

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devindotcom
It's a cool thing, but why does it keep turning up? The Copenhagen Wheel was
invented in 2009 and refreshed at the end of last year in a crowdfunding
project. And just today an editor pitched me on the idea that e-bikes using
this or other methods were about to blow up. E-bike makers have been telling
me that for years...

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Executor
Shut up and take my money!

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twobits
To put it simply: I bought an electric bike 4 months ago. ..My wife is
divorcing me. :-)

