
Petition: Stop bundling crapware with Java - lagerstedt
https://www.change.org/petitions/oracle-corporation-stop-bundling-ask-toolbar-with-the-java-installer
======
drostie
"As you know people, as you learn about things, you realize that these
generalizations we have are, virtually to a generalization, false. Well,
except for this one, as it turns out. What you think of Oracle, is even truer
than you think it is. There has been no entity in human history with less
complexity or nuance to it than Oracle. And I gotta say, as someone who has
seen that complexity for my entire life, it's very hard to get used to that
idea. It's like, 'surely this is more complicated!' but it's like: Wow, this
is really simple! This company is very straightforward, in its defense. This
company is about one man, his alter-ego, and what he wants to inflict upon
humanity -- that's it! ...Ship mediocrity, inflict misery, lie our asses off,
screw our customers, and make a whole shitload of money. Yeah... you talk to
Oracle, it's like, 'no, we don't fucking make dreams happen -- we make money!'
...You need to think of Larry Ellison the way you think of a lawnmower. You
don't anthropomorphize your lawnmower, the lawnmower just mows the lawn, you
stick your hand in there and it'll chop it off, the end. You don't think 'oh,
the lawnmower hates me' -- lawnmower doesn't give a shit about you, lawnmower
can't hate you. Don't anthropomorphize the lawnmower. Don't fall into that
trap about Oracle." \-- Bryan Cantrill
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-zRN7XLCRhc>

~~~
TazeTSchnitzel
The Oracle bit of that video:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-zRN7XLCRhc&t=33m](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-zRN7XLCRhc&t=33m)

~~~
warmwaffles
His rant is entertaining.

------
tobiasu
On the contrary, please continue. Improve it by adding BonziBuddy and friends.
Please please please ruin your already non-existent reputation, Oracle. Help
ordinary people who have no idea what Oracle is, connect your name with spam
and spyware (and security problems, ofc).

~~~
VexXtreme
I would love to see that. Java really deserves to die a death at this point.

~~~
sc0rb
Here we go again, another Java hater for no reason. What should we replace it
with? someCrap.js? someOtherCrap.py?

You really have no idea what you're talking about. Killing Java would be a
ridiculous thing to do. You live in such a bubble.

~~~
VexXtreme
I work with Java every day. Java and Spring pay my bills at the moment but
that doesn't lessen my contempt for the platform. Overly amateurish nature of
the community/ecosystem is a huge issue when you are building enterprise level
applications (but have no choice really, because it is your company's
technology of choice - usually because they are too cheap to pay for decent
dev tools).

The whole community is full of de facto "standards" and half baked libraries
which are usually results of someone's summer project.

The language in and of itself is alright (although massively outdated compared
to more modern alternatives like C#), but the virtual machine and the nature
of the ecosystem make me want to blow my brains out on daily basis. Don't even
get me started on the recent security debacle.

I don't know a lot about these new *.js technologies but if they are right
tools for the job, then yes, I wouldn't have anything against using them where
appropriate.

~~~
pron
So, do you mean Java or the JVM? Because here we're talking about the JVM;
that means Java, Clojure, Groovy, JRuby, Scala etc.

Sometimes the JVM isn't the right tool; Java the language is often the wrong
tool. But when you need to write large, high-performance, backend software,
the JVM is pretty much the only rational choice. C/C++ is too expensive
effort-wise, in development, in maintenance and in monitoring. Erlang is
awesome, but it's too slow for some things. .Net is not robust on non-windows
platforms (I'm not sure about this, but this is the common perception). Go is
slower than Java, lacks the huge ecosystem, and also doesn't provide all the
JVM goodies like runtime instrumentation and profiling, hot code swapping,
good monitoring etc. Rust is too immature (and won't give you those benefits
either). So, pretty often, the JVM is the only choice and you think it's time
to kill it?

------
Apreche
Petition: Programmers, stop using the Oracle versions of Java. Too many of
your Java programs only work properly with Oracle JVM, etc. Instead,
standardize on another one of the Java implementations so that it can become
the premiere implementation and really screw with Oracle.

~~~
jwr
Some of us (especially in the performance-oriented crowd, or people using
large heaps) really have no choice here.

~~~
pepr
I'm curious, are other Java implementations (e.g. OpenJDK) really that bad? I
mean, quite a lot of influential/resourceful companies are behind it, are they
unwilling or unable to improve it?

~~~
bunderbunder
The OpenJDK project is run by Oracle.

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brudgers
This petition is complaining about the neighbor on your left letting his dog
crap in your yard, when the neighbor on the right is running a meth lab. We
are carrying around phones filled with spyware to track what we listen to,
watch and read an where we do it.

How hard is it to discern even our sleep habits? We put them on the charger
beside the bed at night and tune in to Pandora. If our phones can't tell if
we're sleeping around or alcoholics already, it won't be long until they can.

Like most petitions this one is a distraction. It keeps our energy focused on
the wrong part of a larger issue and one where any leverage we have cannot
create fundamental change.

~~~
freehunter
And what do you propose Microsoft or Apple would do with the knowledge that
I'm an alcoholic who is cheating on my wife? Why would they care? They're in
business to make money, and there's not much money in extortion, not for long.
If my phone called my wife automatically to tell her where I was and what I
was doing, it wouldn't be long before no one bought that phone and Apple went
out of business from the privacy lawsuits.

Yeah, we carry devices that are spying on us. Why do they spy? To sell us more
stuff. They don't try to hide that fact. Your fearmongering is off topic here,
and fairly irrelevant elsewhere too.

~~~
brudgers
_"Why do they spy? To sell us more stuff."_

They spy because they can. They spy because the companies involved believe
that the data they collect has value. They spy because the companies involved
believe that the data they collect might have even more value in the future.

The companies involved aren't in the business of selling you stuff. They sell
data about you to others. Sure that might be a retailer of Hello Kitty
backpacks with scenes of unicorns shitting rainbows. It might be a
presidential campaign. It might be a government - and in that case, the value
exchanged might be trade privileges rather than cash.

Large commercial ventures willing to harm many people for the sake of profit
are not unknown to history e.g. the East India Company and International
Association of the Congo. Likewise, industries adopting standard practices
which do so - e.g. tetra-ethyl lead.

I may be wrong. But I don't think that just because I live in the US
corporations have any more respect for my human dignity than they do for the
citizens of Honduras or Pakistan or Albania.

~~~
bnr
Please point me to where I can buy non-public data about potential backpack
purchasers (or any person for that matter) from Apple/Google/Microsoft.

Until then, your statements are nothing more than FUD.

------
Eliezer
Are you offering to pay for Java development and maintenance? I mean...
someone has to. How is this not a case of demanding things for free?

If the petition were asking Oracle to establish a nonprofit that could support
Java and offering to pay the first $10,000 toward it, I'd have a quite
different reaction. But this seems to me no different from agitating for "free
healthcare" without even _mentioning_ who might pay for it, just, "it should
be free!"

~~~
omershapira
To be fair, Oracle is (or was planning on) making heaps of money out of Java
for business. Client-side Java seems like less than a portion of their plan to
start with (anyone who mentions JavaFX here gets banned from the internet) - I
mean, start with hiring a designer for the download page. This disrespect to
users is exactly why they're treating it that way. If it's not that important
to them, might as well import com.oracle.money-making-addon; No big deal
either way.

Anyway, as someone who regularly writes software for artists and designers
with Java, I lately find myself avoiding JVM-based workflow on the client-
side. It's just too much of a hassle for anyone I work with.

~~~
skyebook
Agreed, I'm a big fan of Java and have written client software with it but the
annoyances are rapidly beginning to outweigh the benefits. Bad press, awful UI
support on OS X, Web Start's seeming disappearing/reappearing act... What's
the point anymore?

~~~
chc
What do you like instead? AFAIK there really isn't any good cross-platform
client software development environment, particularly if you care about the
Mac. My impression is that Java is no more or less crap than everything else.

------
nnnnni
Go to <http://www.ninite.com> and get the Java installer from there. It's
malware-free and streamlined.

~~~
UnoriginalGuy
Only if you implicitly trust ninite.

~~~
eli
Personally, I'd take that deal.

~~~
monochromatic
The devil you know is... worse than the devil you don't?

~~~
sp332
I am at least a potential customer of ninite's, so they have some incentive
not to screw me over. Not so much with Oracle.

------
speeder
Can anyone please tell me why Oracle is doing that? I don't get it, it seems
to me that the amount of unhappy people would eclipse any penny they might
earn with such cheap tactics, it is not like this would give them a 10% profit
increase.

~~~
josephagoss
Oracle don't care about happy people, and a lack of happy people dealing with
Oracle has not stopped their massive profits so why would they start now?

I think this is extra worse than normal bundling, because its a friggin
platform! A basis for applications, it smells as bad as Microsoft asking to
install a toolbar during the OS install.

~~~
yankcrime
By bundling advert-ridden applications with their latest OS, Microsoft aren't
really all that far off the mark from your comment.

~~~
pi18n
I'm fine with advertisements in desktop apps. Those guys have to make money.
But I think there should be a way to pay a fee and forcibly remove them even
if the developer didn't code for it. It's your machine, after all.

~~~
yareally
There's ads in Microsoft bundled apps as well[1], not just third party
developers.

[1] [http://winsupersite.com/windows-8/microsoft-cheapens-
windows...](http://winsupersite.com/windows-8/microsoft-cheapens-
windows-8-ads)

~~~
MatthewPhillips
They're in news apps, not in the email client or web browser.

------
imglorp
If you're reading this, you're probably too small.

I believe ORCL wants to drive off all their nuisance D and E customers, which
is all the riffraff not paying them $50m/yr. After taking over Sun, they've
moved all the good stuff behind a paywall, jacked the cost of legacy products
and of supporting them, added onerous contracts with stiff penalties. For
example, if you ever drop support, there's a big fine to rejoin. Another
example is if you're an OEM they make it very very hard to simply sell their
stuff. My $work is an OEM that also uses several products ORCL bought that
used to be okay, but now we're getting off them before the sleaze and expense
kills us.

So Java is probably one of those standalone business units they need but hope
it will make a little profit of its own. The first attempt to monetize, sue
GOOG, didn't go so good if you recall.

~~~
cmiles74
I believe the crapware bundling was started by Sun, it predates acquisition.

~~~
eitland
Most of the time Sun just used it to advertise OpenOffice which was their own
product.

Does anyone remember if Sun at any time bundled adware or other forms of
crapware, esp. using deceptive tactics?

~~~
flomo
Sun Java included either the Google or Yahoo browser toolbar, and IIRC it
prompted you about an antivirus program for a while.

~~~
eitland
Thanks. I was obviously looking at Sun through rose colored shades

------
meaty
You mean: stop bundling crapware with our crapware!

Note: I have no problem with Java on the server or client, just the applet and
browser plugin model.

~~~
asveikau
I remember a time when java applets were cool. I don't think it's a bad idea
entirely, just dated, and eclipsed by other technologies.

~~~
camperman
Perhaps eclipsed is not the best choice of words here :)

------
arocks
I rarely install Java on a new machine because of their installer. It feels
too maleware-ish to me. In fact, I would go out of my way to find a non-Java
alternative for most software I need.

~~~
jcromartie
There is a standalone install.

------
nodata
I already voted: I uninstalled Java from every Windows PC I have.

~~~
SquareWheel
The beauty of cross-platform support is you can uninstall it from every device
you have!

------
blibble
I can sure see Oracle responding to a petition on the Internet!

~~~
WhaleBiologist
Ah, internet petitions. The best way to feel good about doing absolutely
nothing.

------
urza
Few days ago I was watching a movie and in the middle the java-wants-your-
presmission-for-update popup just appeared over my movie.. Thats it. Enough is
enough. Java is the most annoying and probably most unsecure thing on my
computer.. I started removing programs that need java and replacing them with
native alternatives.. the last one remaining is KSG client (
<http://www.gokgs.com/> ) - it will be a tough one, I dont want to give up
playing GO on my favourite server.. but.. as long as the java
installer/updater behaves this way.. I will not tolerate it on my computer.

------
Surio
[Somewhat relevant, somewhat off-topic]

Commission collections and ethics aside, I actually cannot understand the
venom towards Ask (its search results). I believe in keeping web searches open
with multiple choices made available to users, so I actively support all
viable alternatives (meaning I use Ask, Blekko, ddg, lycos, yahoo (bing) among
others instead of Google for regular everyday searches). Ask search results
are very much comparable to Google's, i.e., the search is not "inferior" as
claimed.

As for ads, google's adsense ads are just as much in-your-face as the others
(ymmv), so don't think this point is such a big thing either as claimed.

~~~
michaelt
I'd never used Ask, so after reading your post I compares a search for "cuda
device to host memory copy" [1] and [2]

On google I saw no ads, and the links on the first page of results usually
contain the search term.

On Ask there are ads, and they look very much like search results - there's no
coloured background to identify them as such - and the search results contain
irrelevant links to other Ask properties like "Can I Copy From Youtube? | Ask
Jeeves" and "How Memory Stick | ask.co.uk/how"

Personally I won't be switching from Google to Ask.

I'll admit we might see different things - let me know if you'd like
screenshots.

[1]
[http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=cuda+device+to+host+memory+...](http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=cuda+device+to+host+memory+copy)
[2] <http://uk.ask.com/web?q=cuda+device+to+host+memory+copy>

~~~
Surio
Hi,

Good show. I checked your links on Maxthon [my IE without the IE baggage] and
on Firefox (default browser with ABP add-on) for comparison.

1\. On FF I have ABP installed, but there were no ads on Maxthon either for
Ask. Is it due to "search bubble" or something else? Not sure. However, I too
use uk.ask.com for my searches like you, so the 'bubble' should be the same
for me as well. Hmmmm.

2\. I got those two false positives also. But the rest of the search results
were similar between both search engines (SO, rice.edu, stanford.edu,
sourceforge, NVIDIA). I'll admit that I would have simply filtered those two
anomalies visually and not given it a second thought. But wouldn't you say,
search-for-search, the landing pages were pretty similar in the results
returned (barring those two stupidities)?

~~~
michaelt
Here's the first screen I see on ask (on a 1050px high monitor):
<http://imgur.com/MWk9wm2>

And here's what I see on Google: <http://imgur.com/nalUhES>

~~~
Surio
Managed to find a suitably large monitor. Here's my landing page for
comparison. On Opera with Adblocker installed. I get the same results on
Maxthon that has no addons to block ads. Let me know if you want to see
Maxthon screen.

Ask: <http://i.imgur.com/rX72PDd.png>

Google: <http://i.imgur.com/Q0BusaH.png>

~~~
michaelt
Interesting. I guess with an ad blocker, Ask isn't so bad.

~~~
Surio
Yes, definitely been an interesting discussion. Thanks :-). Even more
surprising for me was Maxthon's ad-free results as well.

FWIW, I'd definitely recommend looking into other alternative search engines
like those I mentioned earlier. Usually my opera's speed dial default engine
is dogpile [<http://www.dogpile.com>] that curates Google, Yahoo and Yandex
results into one search result on one page. Definitely also worth looking into
if you're interested.

I use Bing often, as I love Bing's homepage. Oh! those panoramic pictures. You
got to give it to them. They definitely got _that_ UX right. ;-)

 _Edit: Blekko and DDG are quite fab. And for an old contender, Lycos quite
literally, rocks! Try them._

------
huhtenberg
Larry is saving up for another Hawaii island. Every penny counts.

------
DrinkWater
Heeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeell no, i am not going to sign this. Like what is it
going to change?

------
alpeb
The latest JavaFX release, which is the new way of building java desktop apps,
encourages you to bundle the java runtime in your app, which gives you a lot
of benefits including avoiding the problem discussed here. It's a wonderful
platform I encourage everybody to look into.

------
magoon
1) Ask Toolbar is about as mild a bundle-in as it gets.

2) You can set Java update mode to manual.

3) Chrome (and possibly another browser) asks permission before using Java on
any page, so I consider it a low-risk vector for drive-bys.

~~~
ihsw
1 and 2 are opt-out while 3 is opt-in, they should all be opt-in.

~~~
Karunamon
Absolutely disagree on #2. The application should not have to ask for
permission to update, especially given the security climate that Java lives
in.

If you have to ask the average user for permission to update, updates won't
get done. It's that simple.

Oracle should take a page from Chrome's book, here. Update silently in the
background, and then notify if a restart or a relaunch is required to effect
the change.

------
bigiain
Maybe someone (and by "someone" I of course mean "not me!" - my own internet
nerd-rage falls well short of doing this, not being much of a Windows user)
should write, maintain, and SEO/social-media the hell out of a "Java crap-ware
un-installer", which prominently advertises MS-SQL, SAP, and perhaps Postgres
while it does it's uninstalling… Then get all the geeks to start telling their
bosses "Oh, Java's hijacked your search again? No problem, just search for the
"Java Bundled Software Uninstaller" and download it and run it!"

~~~
johnminter
Crapware un-installer? Sounds more like a crapware exchanger with Postgres
tacked on...

------
rsobers
Enterprises will put up with almost anything, including this type of bullshit.
The cost of switching is far too great. Same goes for lots of Java devs who
make their living off the Oracle ecosystem. Also, probably most consumers that
install Java don't realize how crappy this tactic is.

------
foohbarbaz
Meh. Let this kill the default Java install on Windows.

When I need to deliver an app written in Java to the end user I just include
my own JRE. You have to do it pretty much anyway in order to guarantee that
your app works regardless of quirks of particular system/installation.

------
csense
How easy would it be for someone else to make an OpenJDK build with Windows
installer and auto-updater, but no crapware?

------
gtani
for x86 Windows 32-bit (offline install), not entirely satisfactory if you
need 64-bit but still

<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5115058>

------
Skoofoo
This is just treating a symptom of a disease.

------
drivebyacct2
Couldn't someone just build OpenJDK for Windows and offer it as an alternative
install?

Because, I'll tell you what, I sure didn't get any crapware when I typed `sudo
apt-get install openjdk-7-jdk`.

~~~
calpaterson
The problem is that the OpenJDK has problems with graphical toolkits,
specifically Swing. Intellij (Java IDE with a lot of Swing) runs a lot worse
under the OpenJDK than under the Sun's JVM. I might be wrong, but I don't
think this has changed recently.

~~~
mdellabitta
For a while, using OpenJDK was the only way to get proper font smoothing on
Linux in IntelliJ. It doesn't display any warnings anymore and works fine with
OpenJDK now.

~~~
drivebyacct2
"proper"? Teach me your magic, my Java IDEs still stand out like sore thumbs
compared to ST2/gedit/vim/etc.

------
martinced
With, what, 3 to 6 million Java programmers I think it's going to be _very_
difficult to get 250 000 signatures.

------
dschiptsov
I think "with Java" is somehow tautological, and redundant.)

