
How extreme isolation warps the mind - lvevjo
http://www.bbc.com/future/story/20140514-how-extreme-isolation-warps-minds
======
delluminatus
A psychological gem was dropped in the middle of the article:

 _People in her circumstances have their world suddenly inverted, and there is
nothing in the manner of their taking – no narrative of sacrifice, or enduring
for a greater good – to help them derive meaning from it. They must somehow
find meaning in their predicament – or mentally detach themselves from their
day-to-day reality, which is a monumental task when alone._

This is the same conclusion drawn by Dr. Victor Frankl in his excellent _Man
's Search for Meaning_. His experience in Nazi concentration camps led him to
conclude that the only way to fend off complete apathy was to try to find a
personal meaning in your experience. Even apparently meaningless suffering, he
said, can be made meaningful depending on your response: you can maintain your
human dignity in the face of overwhelming suffering, and by not forgetting
yourself, you can be an affirmation of the strength of humankind.

~~~
3rd3
I cannot understand why people still decide to base their motivations on
slippery concepts like the meaning of life or on some romantized, conjectured
intrinsic values of our species. It seems to me that there are much better
mental models of our existence that can help us to organize our thoughts and
lifes, most notably things that are derived from the theory of evolution,
neuroscience and from behavioral biology.

~~~
v3rt
In this case, probably because when you're being tortured, it's small comfort
to know how the synapses of your tormentors' brains are firing. Things like
defiance in the face of adversity or finding meaning in life seem to be
universal across cultures, and a lot more fundamental to the way our brains
work than something like scientific understanding.

------
xcntktn
There is a prisoner in the US Federal system who has been in solitary
confinement for _27 years_ :

[http://www.peteearley.com/thomas-
silverstein/](http://www.peteearley.com/thomas-silverstein/)

A court recently ruled that his conditions did not constitute a violation of
the 8th amendment:

[http://solitarywatch.com/2013/09/25/federal-appeals-court-
co...](http://solitarywatch.com/2013/09/25/federal-appeals-court-considers-
tommy-silversteins-30-years-extreme-solitary-confinement/)

It is scary to think that while this article start out with an example of
"almost 10,000 hours" in isolation as something horrific, here is a prisoner
in the US who has been in isolation more than 20 times longer than that, and
_the courts have upheld this treatment as legal_.

~~~
moe
_and the courts have upheld this treatment as legal_

Well, given his track record, what alternative is there?

~~~
anigbrowl
One could certainly try graduated adjustments.

Fast facts: Silverstein was imprisoned for bank robbery. While in prison he
was convicted for murder of another inmate, albeit on questionable evidence.
Silverstein kiled and was convicted of murder for killing another inmate who
was seeking revenge for the first killing he was convicted of. He led the
Aryan Nation prison gang for a time. In 1983, he was convicted for a
particularly brutal murder of a prison guard. Since then he has been kept in
ADX (aka Supermax) custody and had no visitors. He is seen by a prison
psychiatrist once a month and otherwise only sees his guards when they deliver
food. Like other supermax prisoners he occupies a cell within a containment
suite, so there's no chance of him communicating with other prisoners by
shouting or suchlike.

Now, obviously Silverstein is all kinds of bad, but I don't buy the argument
that the risk profile he presents has not changed at all in the last 31 years.
It's worth bearing in mind that male criminality peaks in the late teens and
then the decline steepens after age 40. Yeah, of course it's risky to grant
him additional privileges, but there's a big gap between the risk that he'll
attack someone in a controlled environment, and the (unacceptable) outcome of
him escaping and inflicting a danger on society at large.

~~~
davidcbc
Even just allowing visitors without allowing physical interaction would have
to be a vast improvement from total isolation. They've already got a visitor
room set up but don't allow it to be used.

Although at this point who is going to visit?

~~~
anigbrowl
Family, people who feel the injustice of his punishment outweighs the severity
of his crimes.

------
septerr
"Since then, researchers have found that in darkness most people eventually
adjust to a 48-hour cycle: 36 hours of activity followed by 12 hours of sleep.
The reasons are still unclear"

This statement was interesting to me. I wonder if it resonates with anyone
else on HN. My BF who works from home a lot can spend days/hours at home
splitting his time between working (programming) and playing video games. He
has said a lot of times that the normal 24 hour cycle does not work from him.
That he feels his body needs a 36 hour day followed by some hours of sleep.

After reading the aforementioned statement in the article, I wonder if it is
because of he spends so much time indoors.

~~~
jafaku
I did something similar for a couple years, I used to sleep 8-10 hours but
only 6 times a week. People kept telling me that my rotating hours were bad
for my body, but I was in perfect shape, ate well, exercised, etc. Eventually
I came back to "normal" because of certain obligations and human interactions,
but I think I'll return to my rotating hours once I'm done with that.

~~~
mnw21cam
You mean [http://xkcd.com/320/](http://xkcd.com/320/) \- Back when I was
single, I considered doing something like that. I'm sure my body would prefer
to have a 28 hour day.

~~~
jafaku
Oh wow, I didn't realize others had already done this, let alone make comics
about it. But yeah it's like in that comic.

------
electromagnetic
This is more "extreme sensory deprivation is bad" rather than "extreme
isolation is bad".

There is lots of evidence of extreme social isolation having minimal impact on
people's mental stability over long periods. It's not that we need people,
it's that we need to be able to form our own narrative. We need to know what
we're doing, why and what it's getting us.

Extreme isolation of small groups seems much worse, especially long term where
increased rates of social deviance becomes evidenced.

~~~
prawks
Any examples of isolation of small groups? Sounds like it would make a
fascinating case study.

~~~
gregw134
There was a family in Russia that lived in isolation from the time of the
Tsars until the 1970s. [http://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/for-40-years-
this-russ...](http://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/for-40-years-this-russian-
family-was-cut-off-from-all-human-contact-unaware-of-world-war-ii-7354256/?no-
ist)

~~~
soperj
Tsars were in control before ww1 not ww2.

~~~
aquadrop
Yes, that makes the story more fascinating. They left home during revolution
and actually, youngest daughter was still living there alone up until recently
(2010-2011 I think).

~~~
soperj
I think you're reading the story wrong, they even talk about the Bolsheviks
killing the guys brother. They would have gone into the wilderness just before
WW2, years after the revolution(Based on them being there for 40 years, and
being found in 78).

------
UVB-76
Wayback Machine link for those in the UK:

[https://web.archive.org/web/20140514231517/http://www.bbc.co...](https://web.archive.org/web/20140514231517/http://www.bbc.com/future/story/20140514-how-
extreme-isolation-warps-minds)

~~~
boobsbr
People in the UK can't read the BBC?

------
abruzzi
This article unfortunately elides "sensory deprivation" and "social
deprivation." Which I suspect are two very different things. They may bot be
difficult for most people but I suspect there are very different mechanisms in
play.

~~~
saraid216
They're probably related, though. Part of the reason social deprivation is
harmful is probably because there are types of sensory deprivation that come
with it; similarly in reverse.

To really start understanding it, you'd have to break down different types and
intensities of deprivation. How different is it to bed fed by a robot as
opposed to being fed by a hostile guard, for instance?

------
MarkPNeyer
our legal system and much of our social culture are based upon the idea that a
person is entirely responsible for the contents, structure and acuity of their
own mind. this goes back to descartes, and is a prevailing theme throughout
western thought. given what we now know about people and the way their minds
work, i'm hoping we revisit these false beliefs. criminal recidisivm is a huge
problem, and my guess is because the penitentiary model was based upon the
idea that isolating someone and giving them time to think would cause them to
reflect on the error of their ways. we can see now that it just warps a
person's mind.

i went through a long period of social isolation where my friends and even
family pulled away from me because i was acting erratically. this erratic,
bizzare behavior was _caused_ by feeling lonely and isolated, and further
isolation made the problem worse. my guess is this is what happens to most
drug addicts. they feel lonely or hurt, and find temporary comfort in drugs.
their friends and family worry about them and stay away, for fear of making
the problem worse and because being around unhappy people can make you
unhappy. they sufferers find the drug using community accepting and welcoming
- but only on a superficial level. you can light up a joint outside a bar in
SF and instantly find yourself having 'new friends' who will disappear when
the joint is gone. the desire for solace from pain and the longing for
intimacy worsens the dependence on the drug and pushes loved ones further
away.

i understand why people pull away - they are afraid. i get that. but we used
to fear anyone who was sick and put them in special colonies becuase we didn't
understand sickness and thought it was demonic possession or evil at work. i'd
suggest that the modern understanding of "psychosis as illness" is just as
misinformed. we're using the best model we have of the day - when people don't
work properly, they are ill - but that categorization implies that the problem
lies in the person themselves, and not in the environmental conditions they
find themselves in. if EVERYONE goes crazy when they're totally alone for too
long, then it's not accurate to say that 'crazy' symptoms are signs of 'mental
illness.'

it'd be as if we diagnosed people with 'runny nose' syndrome.

see more thoughts here:

[http://markpneyer.me/2014/04/02/the-way-we-understand-
mental...](http://markpneyer.me/2014/04/02/the-way-we-understand-mental-
health-today/)

~~~
nostrademons
Homelessness as well. I wonder if much of the mental illness that
characterizes chronic homelessness is as much an effect as a cause of it,
creating a vicious cycle that's really hard to escape.

~~~
MarkPNeyer
[http://s3.neyer.me/homeless.txt](http://s3.neyer.me/homeless.txt)

~~~
ZenoArrow
I would like to read more from your pen if it exists, please feel free to
share more.

~~~
MarkPNeyer
markpneyer.me is a blog i've been updating. i wrote that thing years ago
during the "feeling alienated and alone" phase; here's a link to some of the
good stuff:

[http://markpneyer.me/about/](http://markpneyer.me/about/)

~~~
ZenoArrow
You have a gift. I see you edited your post, but honestly your autobiography
piece was enchanting, I've rarely read prose I've connected with more. Thank
you.

I do not know you, but I can recognise some of your struggles as similar to
those I've encountered. I can't summarise both accurately and succinctly but
perhaps if I say that purposelessness is both disheartening and liberating you
will recognise what I mean.

Aside from the content, I also thought the low key plain text presentation
added to it, though that's a minor thing.

~~~
MarkPNeyer
thank you sir or madam!

~~~
ZenoArrow
You're welcome. :-)

------
takinola
Most people will live their entire lives never having ever been truly alone.
Even when you are in your house or apartment alone, you still know there are
people in the neighborhood or walking down the street and we don't really
appreciate how much of a comforting effect this has on us.

I have only felt truly alone twice in my life. The first time was on a
platform installation in the North Sea. Imagine being surrounded by all these
huge machines and pipes running autonomously without a human being in sight.
The second time was at the bottom of ocean in Monterrey bay when my diving
team had all disappeared to go back to the boat and I found myself with just 3
feet of visibility and no one else around.

Both times, I felt an impending sense of dread and panic creeping up on me. It
was like being in room 101.

~~~
kafkaesque
I go hiking alone. Most people think I'm crazy (for some reason I don't
understand).

There have been times when there was absolutely nobody. Actually, I enjoy
going hiking really early (say, around 6am), because there is nobody.

But I find pleasure in it. As the article says, the environment and landscape
help me transcend my feeling of loneliness.

On a side note, I may be a slightly different case, because I suffered some
traumatic/dark experiences when I was a child. The feeling of anxiety and fear
was crippling, until I found I could cope with it if I voluntarily search it
out when I am feeling well.

So, this feeling of hiking in the dark, being alone, and isolated helps me
control and overcome my fear and traumatic experience.

The only drawback is that if I don't do this every so often, including
exercising, I can slip back to some depression.

~~~
itsameta4
>for some reason I don't understand

If anything goes wrong, there's a very high chance of you being found dead.
Happened to my friend's brother.

------
simczak
From a interview with Lama Lodru Rinpoche about the challenge of three year
silent retreat:

"The physical obstacles are not so difficult for people. After one week people
have no problem with fewer hours of sleep. After several weeks the pain of
sitting cross legged is overcome. The physical obstacles are not the problem;
physical problems we can control. Mental problems are more difficult to
control. It is very difficult to discipline the mind. No matter how much
discipline you have, when a thought comes you have no power to stop it, unless
you can employ very powerful effective techniques to cut off those thoughts.

Q: Are these techniques only available to people on 3-year retreat? LLR:
People outside 3-year retreat have no time to employ these techniques. First
of all you have to tame your mind, make your mind soft and gentle, and then
you can utilize more active techniques. Without this taming of the mind the
techniques are not useful, and could even bring lots of difficulties. It is
not so much that people outside 3-year retreat cannot learn or be given these
techniques it is just they have no time to apply them. They have to make a
living, there are lots of distractions, and this type of distracted mind is
not good for the pr ofound teachings you learn in 3-year retreat. Also during
3-year retreat the teachings are given in sequence, not all at once. When one
teaching is complete another is introduced."

------
zokier
This is highly tangential, but this bit in the beginning stood out to me:

> That summer, the 32-year-old had been hiking with two friends in the
> mountains of Iraqi Kurdistan when they were arrested by Iranian troops after
> straying onto the border with Iran.

I'd put "going hiking to the Iraq-Iran border-zone" to the bucket of bad ideas
even in better times, and 2009 (when this seemed to happen) certainly wasn't a
good time.

It is just common sense to keep away from borders, especially if behind that
border is Iran which is not the friendliest of nations. Double-especially if
you are an American, towards which Iran is openly hostile (for good reasons I
believe).

You wouldn't go canoing Yalu River either, would you?

~~~
aestra
Yes, it probably wasn't completely wise, but these three weren't really as
naive as it may appear.

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009%E2%80%9311_detention_of_Am...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009%E2%80%9311_detention_of_American_hikers_by_Iran)

>At the time of their detention by Iranian troops, the three Americans were on
vacation from their jobs in the region in a relatively stable, autonomous
region of Iraq known as Iraqi Kurdistan. On the recommendations of locals,
they hiked to see a popular local Iraqi tourist destination near the Iraq-Iran
border, the Ahmed Awa waterfall.

>The three American detainees have stated they were simply hikers who did not
realize that they were in Iran and that they actually have lengthy backgrounds
as social justice activists

>They had been living and active in the Middle East, and were on holiday in
Iraqi Kurdistan, an autonomous region of Iraq free from the sectarian struggle
that dominates much of Iraq.[16][17][18] They had been advised of the
suitability of the region for a holiday by friends who had been there and
through Internet research; and were recommended the Ahmed Awa waterfall, a
popular Kurdish tourist destination, by a number of local people whilst they
were in Sulaymaniyah.

>after straying onto the border with Iran.

There is some contention that they might not have actually crossed the border.

------
rdl
I've spent >6 months with my only human contact being over the Internet (yay,
Sealand), and weeks-up-to-6 in similar settings (boats, hiding out in a villa
in a foreign country, etc.). IRC-as-primary-social-contact was...interesting.
But I don't think it was actually that unhealthy.

~~~
angersock
Sealand? Like, cryptopunk wetdream Sealand? Do tell.

------
CatMtKing
It seems like the author's confusing two concepts here. He postulates about
isolation from human contact, but all his examples are for isolation from
sunlight or sensory deprivation. I don't disagree that there are connections
between the two, but it doesn't feel like he jumped that gap.

Edit: Seems like the whole article is based on the author's book. So maybe it
was taken a little out of context?

~~~
gwern
The sailing articles sounded like social isolation and not sensory
deprivation.

~~~
CatMtKing
True, but then he also gives examples of people that cope with social
isolation just fine, suggesting that they substitute the environment instead.
That sounds more like support for sensory deprivation being the cause of his
claims.

------
dkarapetyan
For some reason people separate mind matters from body matters but this
separation is artificial. Just like your internal organs operate within a
biological ecosystem shaped by millions of years of evolution so does the
mind. The mind has both an internal and external ecosystem that it was shaped
by and operates in. So just like all biological systems it goes awry when
equilibria that shaped it suddenly go away.

------
razvanr
This is remarkable:

"researchers have found that in darkness most people eventually adjust to a
48-hour cycle: 36 hours of activity followed by 12 hours of sleep. The reasons
are still unclear."

~~~
dasmithii
I'm not well-versed in modern sleep research, but our habits today are
shifting drastically for the first time. Because of electricity, we're no
longer bound to the sun cycle, as species of past millennia have been, and the
typical day-night sleep schedule is no longer required.

With alternative sleep cycles popularizing (i.e. biphasic, dymaxion,
everyman), I wonder if we'll find that more efficient/healthy systems exist.
It's very possible that our modern habits evolved in spite of best health,
reacting to more immediate issues instead. But now, with a counter to the
danger of darkness, we have an opportunity to experiment with otherwise-
unrealistic cycles.

But then again, the 6-10 hour blocks we're acclimated to may be so deeply
engrained that our health would face consequences in any other situation.

~~~
enneff
> With alternative sleep cycles popularizing

Are they really? I don't know of anyone who uses an alternate sleep cycle.

~~~
dasmithii
I suppose my statement was a bit unfounded. Having just graduated, many of my
friends have begun experimenting now that school's out (and schedules are less
strict).

Small sample size, I admit...

------
doxcf434
I can't help but wonder why we come to such broad conclusions of fact about
the mind, when there are plenty of data points that show there's quite a lot
more to the story than "isolation is bad". If I were a serious scientist of
the mind for example, I would need to include data points from India and Tibet
masters in to my research, who are well known for having studied the mind and
have data points showing the opposite. It strikes me as a cultural basis at
best to not include those data points, how do we even considered this science
really?

~~~
touristtam
Agreed, the background (social and other) of the 'participant' ought to be
very different.

------
NoMoreNicksLeft
I have a deep and lingering suspicion that humans are a "weak hive mind"
species. If we use the metaphor that the human brain is a computer, and that
human communication is networking... this means that the "you" is software.

In such circumstances, why would we expect that software to run on one and
only one computer node in the network? Do you know of many software
applications that do that?

If this were true though, what would happen when all the other nodes become
disconnected? The remaining node is probably going to malfunction...

------
dobbsbob
A guy on Texas Polunsky Death row, Thomas Bartlett Whitaker writes often for
the blog Minutes Before Six on what life is like in constant solitary.
[http://minutesbeforesix.blogspot.ca/2010/07/how-to-go-to-
lev...](http://minutesbeforesix.blogspot.ca/2010/07/how-to-go-to-level-3-for-
dummies-part-1.html)

Had no idea extreme solitary would cause prolonged vertigo

------
zoner
It's still ridiculous that BBC does not allow UK visitors to see their
american (web) content. An other reason to not pay for the TV license.

------
richardlblair
What's crazy is I knew a few people that had to do some time. They would _try_
to get into solitary because they feared for their lives.

I can't imagine being so afraid for your own life that you are willing to
endure the torture of isolation.

------
supernova87a
I spent 6 years in grad school, don't lecture me about the effects of
isolation!

------
hyp0
> Biologists believe that human emotions evolved because they aided co-
> operation ... fear, anger, anxiety and sadness

Mammals exhibit emotions such as fear and anger.

~~~
crpatino
Humans are mammals. I do not think OP implied those emotions are unique to
humans, rather the opposite is true. All species of (vertebrate) social
animals evolved a similar set of emotions, in part due to shared ancestry but
in part on the basis of being subject to the same environmental pressures.

~~~
hyp0
nice point! mammal territorial anger _is_ cooperative - go away or else. it
can avoid an expensive fight. fear is backing down - i'll go. this
communication is a kind of cooperation.

this explains the _exhibition_ of _some_ emotion, and argues that that's all
it is. though, there are non-social emotions that are useful, eg hunger, fear
of high places, enjoyment of warmth in cold weather.

------
hyp0
The adverse reactions came from _sensory_ deprivation.

For _social_ isolation, reactions varied. Love that guy who just Gump-kept
sailing.

------
blueskin_
For those in the UK who can't see it:

[http://archive.today/HLzWo](http://archive.today/HLzWo)

------
softatlas
Yea, to "deprivation" thesis. There's always IRC.

------
jqm
Good article.

Now I have an excuse for getting on HN from time to time while locked away in
the solitary confinement of VIM.

~~~
goldenkey
For a serious and meaningful article, your response is quite tasteless.

~~~
jqm
I disagree with you 100%.

Some of these symptoms might appear in people who are isolated and working
remotely or people who spend long stretches of time locked away and working on
projects. In fact, I'll go so far as to say I am sure less severe version of
these symptoms appear.

I'm surprised you don't see the connection and can only assume you have not
been in one of these situations or are not a programmer.

~~~
mr_tyzic
The extreme isolation described in this article bears little resemblance to
"working on projects", so the connection seems spurious.

~~~
jqm
You seem to have missed the portion about "locked away".

The fact is that there is a connection... isolation.

And it may result in manifestation of less severe versions of the same
symptoms.

~~~
mr_tyzic
I think you're just making that up, and that it trivializes the real trauma
the article is about.

~~~
jqm
Ok, if that's what you think.

Thanks for expressing your opinion. I'm sorry you feel the need to be hostile.
And, I don't agree with you.

------
pastforward
_" It is not good for man to be alone."_ Genesis 2:18

Turns out we've known this from the start.

~~~
optymizer
That's not the start.

------
waylandsmithers
Unrelated, but holy crap are those some click-baity articles advertised in the
sidebars.

