
MMM Receives Legal Threats - danvideo
http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2014/03/11/mmm-receives-legal-threats-great-lawyer-wanted/
======
thaumaturgy
Ken Popehat ([http://www.popehat.com/](http://www.popehat.com/)) might be
worth contacting. Even if he can't help directly, he might know someone who
can. He's about the closest thing the internet has to a folk superhero in law;
he has a "Popehat signal" ([http://www.popehat.com/tag/popehat-
signal/](http://www.popehat.com/tag/popehat-signal/)) he uses for a "call for
pro bono help for online folks who get threatened with bogus censorious
lawsuits"
([http://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/1aokls/iama_federal_cr...](http://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/1aokls/iama_federal_criminal_defense_attorney_and_former/))
and he got involved, at least twice, with a university-area bus company that
has tried to silence criticism on Reddit
([http://beta.slashdot.org/story/185659](http://beta.slashdot.org/story/185659)).

~~~
jplewicke
Luckily, it looks like Mr. Money Mustache is already in touch with Ken from
Popehat: [http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2014/03/11/mmm-receives-
legal...](http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2014/03/11/mmm-receives-legal-
threats-great-lawyer-wanted/#comment-617916) .

------
jimbokun
Every time I see another example of frivolous litigation threats like this, I
feel like one of the biggest shortcomings of the U.S. justice system is not
enough pain inflicted on frivolous litigators.

This goes for patent trolling, too, obviously.

There should be a healthy fear of filing baseless legal challenges.
Disbarment? Large fines? What's the effective remedy here, that doesn't go so
far it dissuades legitimate cases?

~~~
atomical
Who decides if they are baseless? From the post MMM can't even decide: "From
what I could tell, there wasn’t much merit to their complaint."

~~~
unclebucknasty
No, the parent is right. My own attorney even describes the current system as
extortionate.

Even if this claim is not found to be technically frivolous (a legal term that
carries a standard), the current system offers little or no penalty to those
who use the courts as a bullying tactic.

If you say or do something that someone doesn't like, then they just sue you
and force you to spend exorbitant amounts of money and time to defend
yourself, or otherwise just capitulate to their demands. Even the effort
required to show that something is frivolous can be expensive, as the standard
is high.

The current design absolutely favors those with money. The defendant can win
handily but stand very little chance of even recovering their attorney's fees.

------
tdees40
Looks like this has already made it to the Wikipedia page for Kiss Trust:

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kiss_Trust](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kiss_Trust)

~~~
dmm
50.204.172.183 seems intent on changing the wording to be more favourable to
kiss trust.

~~~
dubfan
That IP resolves to a Comcast Business connection in Warrenton, VA. Guess
where kisstrust.com's WHOIS record shows they are located?

~~~
patdennis
That's where the Kiss Trust's attorney is located, according to the posted
letter.

------
daphneokeefe
Aside from this current issue, which has no doubt raised awareness of MMM's
website, one of the positive outcomes here is that HN readers may be exposed
to some of the most awesomely good advice you will ever receive. Reading his
posts has led me to understand that I am not alone by any means in my quest
for financial independence, which is true independence. Check out his site --
you can begin with the "Start Here" link on the navbar.

~~~
mberning
I was not aware of the site before today. I looked through a few of the
articles and came to the conclusion that it is a borderline religious frugal
porn site. You can take a look at the site owners 2013 budget as a prime
example. Assuming that your house and car is paid off and that nobody got
seriously ill and no other unexpected expenses came up the guy claims to have
spent 23k for one year of supporting a family of 3+ (presumably). It is hard
to reconcile the claimed budget knowing the reality of supporting onself, even
if you disregard things such as rent, car, and medical.

~~~
raintrees
If I remember the first few articles (I started at the beginning when I found
the site, several years ago) Mr. Money Moustache and his wife were able to
save radically while working fairly decent jobs. The result being they we able
to "retire" very early (20's?) and are offering tips and sharing methodology.

So without the background, yes the numbers can seem very low. But with the
background, you may find all of the research that went into the home they have
(paid for), the retirement accounts they comfortably live on while they
continue to grow, and the side jobs he takes for fun (and profit), like buying
and rehabbing rental properties alone and with others. Not to mention the
healthy lifestyles (why drive when you can bike? Even in Colorado winters?).

Similar to any perceived extreme point of view/lifestyle, it has its fans and
detractors. There are many who are very thankful for the guidance...

But I think it comes down to some basics that the American media (if not
others) do not seem to promote very often: Earn well, save a large percentage,
keep expenses low, invest well, continue to learn. Question perceived
"necessities."

YMMV

~~~
mberning
I have no doubt that a highly disciplined individual could accomplish such a
feat. But then add a wife or husband. Then add a child. It seems increasingly
less likely for an average or even above average saver to accomplish what is
being espoused. At least without major push back from the other people you are
attempting to subject to this lifestyle.

I am honestly wondering what they do when people they know are doing something
that costs money. Do they just skip it? Birthday dinner @ a restaurant - skip
it. Going to a sporting event - skip it. Kid is getting made fun of at school
for wearing dollar store shoes - skip it. Kid wants to play school sports but
costs $300/sport - skip it. Kid wants to go to dinner/movies with classmates -
skip it. Holidays roll around, time to exchange gifts - skip it.

I guess what I am trying to say is that while extreme saving is a laudable
goal, I highly doubt that their family budget is so neat and tidy. Exceptions
come up all the time and you would have to put forth heroic efforts to say
'no' to most or all of them. You would also be making huge sacrifices and
asking your SO and children to do the same.

~~~
raintrees
Some of them are really entertaining reads, if you have the time you might
want to check it out:

[http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2011/04/08/mr-money-
mustaches...](http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2011/04/08/mr-money-mustaches-
own-story/) [http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2011/04/10/post-4-what-am-
i-s...](http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2011/04/10/post-4-what-am-i-supposed-
to-do-with-all-this-money/)
[http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2011/04/11/getting-
started-2-...](http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2011/04/11/getting-
started-2-the-higher-cause/)

Just the first few, it goes on.

To specifically answer your questions, you will find the answers in various
posts on that site, but you will have to put in the time to read them.

And I agree with the sentiment expressed in one of these above links that the
boilerplate of the advice will be found in many personal finance/retire early
books. To me, this is a confirmation of what I would consider basic elements
or basic truths. And much of it can be common sense, like paying off a high
interest rate loan before lower interest rate loans. Or making due with the
car/house I currently have, rather than saddling myself with a newer/bigger
car/house. I have heard someone refer to this as the process of "striving,"
rather than the process of "arriving:" It can seem like we never have enough.

I am very fortunate to be male and in the United States, as I have read
repeatedly that the world is not fair and I have it far better than many other
humans. For this, I am thankful. But I also put in the work.

My wife and I are using the methods we learned from Robert Kiyosaki's Rich
Dad/Poor Dad series (which also has it's fans and detractors) and doing quite
well. A four-plex we bought two years ago allowed us to pocket US$8000.00 last
year, and yet legally claim a loss of $800 due to IRS rules for deferred
taxes.

But the same core lessons can be found (for free) at
[http://www.financialintegrity.org](http://www.financialintegrity.org). And as
I said, when I see the same basic guidelines being repeated by so many
different people, I conclude that there is likely to be some basic truths
buried therein.

Good reading to you!

------
xacaxulu
MMM is handling this like pros! Hopefully this will serve as a blueprint for
future people in similar situations.

~~~
danvideo
Maybe MMM site is a good place for it, maybe not - but the idea sounds great -
to have a place where people can submit info about when this happens to them
as well to publicize and share advice.

~~~
toomuchtodo
[http://www.chillingeffects.org/](http://www.chillingeffects.org/)

------
tomphoolery
I highly suggest going the "Something Awful" route, and simply just making fun
of the lawyer(s) in question until they stop.

People like this should be treated the way they act. Like children.

~~~
slig
Wasn't the "The Oatmeal" that made fun of a lawyer?
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Oatmeal_and_FunnyJunk_legal...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Oatmeal_and_FunnyJunk_legal_dispute)

~~~
adorton
Allow me to introduce you to Leonard "J." Crabs.

[http://www.somethingawful.com/hosted/crabs/](http://www.somethingawful.com/hosted/crabs/)

[http://www.somethingawful.com/legal-
threats/](http://www.somethingawful.com/legal-threats/)

------
VMG
Google cache:
[http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:VT0QbIB...](http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:VT0QbIB2VY8J:www.mrmoneymustache.com/2014/03/11/mmm-
receives-legal-threats-great-lawyer-wanted/+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk)

------
err4nt
Did anybody else notice it said DCMA on the original lawyers letter?

    
    
      these posts infringe on our trademarks and copyrights in violation of the DCMA
    

[http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/wp-
content/uploads/2014/03/ki...](http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/wp-
content/uploads/2014/03/kisstrust_first_bullshit_letter.jpg)

------
lingben
google cache of relevant MMM forum thread (removed):

[http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:tMinWjW...](http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:tMinWjWB6DYJ:www.mrmoneymustache.com/forum/investor-
alley/kiss-trust-has-sent-a-legal-threat-to-this-
blog/+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&client=firefox-a)

------
tanon500
Organization who allegedly asked the lawyer to take action:
[http://www.kisstrust.com/](http://www.kisstrust.com/)

* Maybe this was just an incompetent attorney, but regardless, taking legal action against a website for a comment posted really demonstrates that the company isn't capable of using its good reputation to handle the situation, and therefore lacks said reputation. Can't compete on the merits - GTFO. /rant

~~~
dubfan
They seem to have a history of playing fast and loose with the law. See this
thread on Bogleheads where forum posters discovered they took a forum member's
post, put it on their site as a "review" with no link to the original thread,
and had the gall to claim the text was "public domain":
[http://www.bogleheads.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=107952](http://www.bogleheads.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=107952)

------
k3oni
Well that was a good read. Seems that someone needs to learn how the internet
works. Just put it on reddit and watch the Streisand effect in action :).

~~~
tzaman
It got here, so I think the effect is already well under way :)

~~~
k3oni
Right, but HN crowd is a bit more "classy". Now reddit on thee other hand..
you know how they work :)

------
viggity
FWIW, the kisstrust.com website appears to be down (giving a 404).
Furthermore, I'd like to express my opinion that these lawyers are a bunch of
douchebags.

~~~
Pitarou
Dear Mr. Graham,

It has come to our attention that the commenter "viggity" on your "Hacker
News" internet discussion forum has suggested that the practising partners at
the Law Office of Mark B Williams, PLC are, and I quote, "a bunch of
douchebags".

My clients at the Intimate Hygiene Manufacturers Association maintain that
this is an unfounded slur on their products, and insist that the forum posting
and any derived or related content be removed forthwith.

Yours etc.

------
Hawkee
This reminds me of a case I was involved in several years ago,
[http://techcrunch.com/2008/07/17/channel-intelligence-
sues-j...](http://techcrunch.com/2008/07/17/channel-intelligence-sues-just-
about-everyone-who-offers-wishlists/) \- It ended up blowing up in their
faces. I remember getting the phone number to the CEO of Channel Intelligence
and calling him up directly. His response was, "Can you all just stop calling
me! We'll fix this, just stop calling me!" I believe they were trying to
collect license fees to establish their patent, but in the end they had to
give it away for free to everybody involved. Those who wouldn't accept it got
no further legal action. 5 years later Google bought Channel Intelligence. Go
figure.

------
eli
Sounds like they would be pretty foolish to proceed with a lawsuit, doubly so
if MMM happens to be in a state with a strong Anti-SLAPP law.

~~~
lesserj
MMM is in Colorado, which does have statutory protections against SLAPP [1]

[1][http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strategic_lawsuit_against_publi...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strategic_lawsuit_against_public_participation#United_States_2)

------
dbbolton
RICO? That may be the most definitively _empty_ legal threat I have ever seen
on the internet.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racketeer_Influenced_and_Corru...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racketeer_Influenced_and_Corrupt_Organizations_Act)

------
CaptJax
As a lawyer who dabbles in IP/cyber law (not admitted in VA, so I can't help
out), I really love seeing personal injury/criminal defense attorneys send
cease and desist letters to publishers who are clearly protected under federal
law.

------
6cxs2hd6
Second letter:

> _This will serve as formal notice to preserve all ISP [sic] addresses..._

To paraphrase Churchill: "I may be drunk, but in the morning I will be sober,
whereas you will still be an idiot."

------
gesman
There is no doubt you'll get flooded with offers to help. Someone reasonable,
knowledgeable and efficient is going to have a good time.

------
TrainedMonkey
Well this one should be slam dunk to dismiss unless they file lawsuit in Texas
eastern circuit court.

~~~
Zancarius
I think you misspelled "circus."

~~~
TrainedMonkey
In original context those words are synonymous, so correction need not apply.

~~~
Zancarius
You raise a fantastic point, my friend.

------
final_approach
Slightly offtopic, but oddly enough MMM is also a name of the most famous
Russian ponzi scheme from the 90s. Laughed a little bit, but no parallels, of
course. All the luck to this blog.

------
fnordfnordfnord
Marc Randazza or Popehat would make quick work of this fool.

------
cft
Try contacting Eric Goldman
[http://blog.ericgoldman.org/](http://blog.ericgoldman.org/)

------
rejectedstone
I was surprised to see their site is still up. Making the internet mad at you,
doesn't typically end well.

~~~
dsjoerg
...and it's down.

------
mahmoudimus
Completely off-topic, but I did not know about this website. Going to check it
out as it sounds very useful!

~~~
jiggbenice
Start reading at the very beginning of the blog and carry the thread forward
-- I did this last fall when I first discovered it and found that process to
be immensely rewarding. And not just because of all the gut laughing that
ensued.

------
ilbe
Will the original thread about KISS Trust be restored?

~~~
lesserj
According to the blog post, they have restored the thread, however their
database appears to be overloaded at the moment.
[http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/forum/investor-alley/kiss-
tru...](http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/forum/investor-alley/kiss-trust-has-
sent-a-legal-threat-to-this-blog/)

~~~
darkarmani
From google's cache:
[http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:tMinWjW...](http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:tMinWjWB6DYJ:www.mrmoneymustache.com/forum/investor-
alley/kiss-trust-has-sent-a-legal-threat-to-this-
blog/+&cd=4&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&client=firefox-a)

------
kyleblarson
Looks like they might also need help scaling a website.

------
Paul12345534
Popehat

------
notastartup
not sure I understand what's going on here, why are they being threatened
legally and who is doing it?

~~~
byoung2
KISS Trust is a company that offers revocable trusts for people. Someone on
the MMM forum said that this company was a scam and warned others to stay
away. That post made the first page of Google for a search for KISS Trust, and
the company noticed. They sent a cease and desist to the blog owner demanding
that he take the post down. He refused. Now the company is getting more bad
press because of the legal fight than from the original post. It might have
been better to create an account and respond to the original poster directly
to resolve the issue.

~~~
newuser10
Just to be clear...

The first part of this post is correct. Except that after receiving the legal
threat, the blog owner DID remove the offending forum thread.

But then the blog owner created a new thread describing the legal threat
(can't be libelous to describe a business tactic they've actually employed,
can it?), which has led to much additional discussion and bad press.

Oh, and there's apparently also a wikipedia editing war going on between the
internet and the company PR person. Any guesses on how that one will end?

-new user, followed link from MMM blog to get here.

------
atomical
What's wrong with contacting a lawyer if someone is writing things that are
blatantly untrue? Has anyone here actually read the posts?

~~~
breischl
They are suing the forum owner/operator for something posted by a forum
member. So roughly equivalent to me saying something here, and Paul Graham
getting sued for it.

Also, the actual quote was "This scam product has been discussed here before.
Stay away. It's a marketing ploy." Which I guess may be legally actionable,
but given their behavior seems like it's quite likely true.

~~~
atomical
They would be sued for not taking down the post. If you post something here
that is libel then someone can sue to force Paul Graham to take it down.

If MMM gets a lawyer he's going to end up defending the content of the post,
not his right to operate his site independently.

