
Why French Parents Are Superior  - acak
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970204740904577196931457473816.html?mod=WSJ_hp_mostpop_read
======
edw519
This isn't as much about _place_ as it is about _time_ and could have easily
been entitled, "Why 1950s Parents Are Superior."

We were raised in the U.S. in the 50s and 60s much like the French children in
the article. We weren't treated like children, but like small adults. There
were no children's menus in restaurants. If we wanted to go to out to eat, we
dressed and acted properly and ate real food with our parents. If we wanted to
go to little league, piano lessons, or anywhere else, we got off our butts and
found a way to get there while Dad was at work and Mom was watching younger
siblings. We walked to school from age 5. If we were late for dinner, we
didn't eat. If we were late getting home at night, we didn't get to go out
again. If we wanted money we got a job, not an allowance. If we misbehaved...I
don't know what would happen. We didn't misbehave; we just knew better.

Most of our cousins and friends were the same, with a few exceptions. That was
just the way it was.

Then somebody somewhere fucked it all up and now schools are surrounded by
parents in minivans picking up special people who never really grow up. No
wonder.

The French aren't different, just late. Just give them a few more years and
they'll fuck it all up, too.

~~~
martythemaniak
"Then somebody somewhere fucked it all up"

This somebody was the Baby Boomers, which sounds like your generation. Not
only will BBs be one of the very few generations to leave this place worse off
than they found it, but BBs have also screwed up parenting to the point where
we now have to have a "radical" parenting movement ("Free Range Kids") that
desperately tries to restore some some sanity.

I grew up in Eastern Europe during communist times, which was very old-school
and worlds apart from today's parenting, but still managed to provide me with
a great childhood. If I want to bring up my kids in the same way (lots of
independent, unsupervised play from very early on, real responsibilities),
then I'd be viewed as some kind of pariah and my neighbours will probably call
child services.

~~~
yummyfajitas
_Not only will BBs be one of the very few generations to leave this place
worse off than they found it..._

For some strange reason, people have an overly romantic view of the past.

A friend of mine, after watching mad men, was waxing nostalgic about how nice
things seemed back then. Life was simpler, world is now so screwed up, etc. I
just pointed out to him: "You realize that in 1950, you and your girlfriend
wouldn't be allowed to live in the same neighborhood, right?"

(The girlfriend was Turkish, and dark brown. Not a chance of her passing.)

The 50's might have been better in some ways, but the boomers also got a few
things right.

~~~
bluekeybox
Just because one thing was wrong in the 1950s doesn't imply that everything
else was.

~~~
Tichy
I know - I mean they had an Atomic Energy Lab for kids, how cool is that?
[http://www.orau.org/ptp/collection/atomictoys/GilbertU238Lab...](http://www.orau.org/ptp/collection/atomictoys/GilbertU238Lab.htm)

------
abalashov
(I'm a first-generation Russian immigrant, raised by Russian parents
predominantly in the US.)

There is no question, in my experience, that the number one problem in
American parenting psychology is the idea that you need to always respond to
the kids' immediate needs and to give them attention. It prevents them from
learning how to intellectually stimulate themselves, or be alone for any
meaningful period of time, both of which are absolutely indispensable survival
adaptations for childhood and adult life. The best parenting for the average
American parent I've run into is less parenting.

I also have the sneaking suspicion that people delay or refrain from having
kids here more due to the implied premise that having them is a life-consuming
ordeal that totally, completely dominates adult consciousness. It shouldn't do
that.

Yes, having kids changes your life, but you're still you. You do not live at
the pleasure of your child. When hanging out with adult friends with kids, it
absolutely astounds me that they end up repeating the same sentence ten times
because their kid keeps interrupting them, in a tireless quest for attention.
If I did that, my parents would've belted me silly. I guess that's "child
abuse" here. Either way, aside from a good spanking, the best thing my parents
ever did for me was ignore me a lot. I probably would have turned out to be
diagnosed with "ADD" or some other claptrap if they hadn't.

~~~
pnathan
I have never seen the problem with well-disciplined spanking.

------
Aloisius
I was what people today might call a "free range" child in the 80s. I
interacted with my family mostly at meals and was left to my own devices from
a very young age. I was not placated when I threw a tantrum or cried. I was
responsible to get to school and back from the time I was 6 (nothing serious:
a mile and a half). I made and packed my own school lunches from age 8 on.

The line between my world and the adult's world was very clearly defined and
it was clear that I had to make my own fun, but the parameters around what I
was allowed to do were well defined as well. While I got into some mischief
here and there, it had been drilled into me at a young age how a good person
behaved and I emulated it.

When I tell parents of how I grew up, the reaction almost without exception is
complete horror. I have had several women try to console me. One woman told me
that my emotional scars must run deep and gave me the number for a
psychologist! Needless to say, I don't talk about it much these days.

Now I don't know if how I grew up would be traumatic to other children. I do
think that parents act like their children's entertainers/servants and try
hard to ensure they like them or they're cool or, and this I'll never
understand, try to be friends with them.

I will say that it worked for me and I don't hate my family for doing it.
Quite the opposite in fact.

~~~
bmj
This is what we are trying to do with our kids (boys aged 8 and 6). They make
their own lunches, generally entertain themselves, though we still have
"family time," and do their share of chores aroubd the house. I think there is
a tendency, however, among some parents to have their kids do everything for
them, too. I've seen parents yell at their kids to come inside and a get snack
for them. I think kids should be taught to contribute to the home economy, but
treating them like little indentured servants is perhaps going a bit far.

As far aa being "friends" with your kids, I think there's a narrow line to
walk. I want my kids to trust me (and therefore talk to me), and I want to
enjoy their company, too. There does need to be some sort of boundry there,
though, lest you lose your authority.

~~~
kellishaver
This is very similar to the way we're raising our daughter (9). She gets
herself up and dressed in the morning and off to the buss top (too far to walk
to school). We do things together, but it's not our job to entertain her. She
finds her own entertainment, and often that means playing with other kids in
the neighborhood - fine, so long as she's home by dinner. She knows if she's
late she misses dinner and if that she misbehaves at someone's house, then
that privileged of being able to come and go with the other kids in the
neighborhood is gone.

She has daily and weekly chores that she's expected to do. She doesn't get an
allowance for that - it's just a normal part of contributing to the family
duties, and if she wants something, she does extra chores to earn the money.

She's a great kid, never have had a behavior problem out of her. I think part
of the reason for that is in addition to just giving her a whole bunch of
love, we also respect her and hold her to a standard that we know she's
capable of.

That's very much how I was raised, and I have a great relationship with my dad
and a lot of respect for him. I hope this leads to a similar relationship with
her, and so far it seems to be.

It's working out. She does stupid kid things from time to time, like all kids
do, but she's learning to think for herself and make good decisions, too.

Proud of my kid.

Last summer, though, I got a call from a neighbor down the street telling me
that my daughter wasn't allowed to come down there and play with her kid
anymore, unless I walked her down there, because it was too dangerous for my
then 8 year old child to be walking down there by herself... Mind you, you can
see their house from our front yard. I feel really badly for the little girl
who lives in that house. She's 8 now, not allowed out of the yard, and has no
other friends in the neighborhood.

------
icarus_drowning
I think the dichotomy between perceived empowerment and actual empowerment is
interesting. Children who are allowed to do "whatever they want" _seem_
empowered, but in actuality, they are disempowered by being deprived of
necessary practice in learning important disciplines (patience, long-term
planning, etc.)

Actually empowering children involves giving them choices, yes, but within a
framework that constrains them. "You have a choice to eat the candy now, but
at a cost later" teaches a child to make long(er)-term decisions than "do
whatever you want". This mirrors the actual experiences they will have later
in life, where they will have freedom, but still be required to operate with
the bounds of lawful society. (I can buy myself X now, but I will have to save
later in order to pay my mortgage, etc.)

By refusing to limit children by modeling the realities they will face later
in life, adults teach children that consequences are fantasy, often to
disastrous results when they grow up.

------
ChrisNorstrom
Emotional manipulation works quite well. This is how I was raised. I had such
a strong love for my mom that I didn't want to do anything to hurt or upset
her, so when she asked for something kindly I always listened and just did it.

My father on the other hand. Typical manipulative, dominating, threatening,
intimidating, masculine, control freak. I love him but I'm still recovering
from his "parenting style". My relationship with him is permanently damaged.
Even now that he's older and his testosterone levels have gone down I still
avoid him. A decade of being yelled and screamed at and threatened doesn't
just go away. It's always there.

I've told him I love him lots of times, I just wish I could tell him how much
of an Asshole he was.

~~~
tobiasSoftware
This mirrors what's happened with me over the last few years, I'm having some
trouble with both parents. I'm 24, moving out soon, but stuck in the house for
a few months before I can live with some friends.

My mom I have an extremely strong love for so I never want to do anything to
hurt or upset her, but she has no tolerance, so it's very hard for me because
I feel like I have to be the perfect child for her. She even has me fetching
the paper or a laundry basket for her, it's not like it's a chore that was
given to me, but instead I'll be walking by and she says, "Hey I need you to
go get the paper for me" and there's nothing I can do. Some of my friends tell
me, just tell her no, and I'm like, you don't get it, I'm not really allowed
to tell her no, because it would upset her so much. She even frowns on me
leaving the house for things except when she knows exactly where I'm going and
why, and will pressure me into just staying put, so these days I hardly even
leave the house because of her. I do really care about her, and that's why I
put up with things about her that drive me crazy.

On the other hand, my dad's so much of a control freak I've had to cut ties
with him. Three years ago he did horrible things, my mom divorced him, and I
ended up not speaking to him, but he tries to force his way back into my life.
He sometimes says, "Well I'm your father so I have a right to... use your car
whenever I want to, visit you whenever I want to, tell you to do something
whenever I want to." My relationship with him isn't just damaged, but is gone
after the way he's treated me. Just the last few months, first he came to my
graduation after I specifically told him not to, then he pressured my mom into
giving information about me, by refusing to tell her necessary financial
information unless she told him some things about me first.

~~~
lysium
Honestly, this ain't love what you have with your mom, not even close. If
she'd love you, she'd want you to be happy. Instead, she drives you crazy with
her obsessions.

~~~
jahewson
Your comment is rude and inappropriate, people are varied and wonderfully
complex, don't judge.

------
johnnyn
I think the story at the end about speaking to your child with conviction and
the right tone is spot on.

I have a 20 month old daughter. I constantly struggle with this because I want
to be nice even when saying 'no', but it doesn't take long to realize that
being stern without being scary is the best balance. I realized that my 'no'
when she opens the pantry door is totally without conviction and she doesn't
respond at all. But my 'no' when she strays off the sidewalk and near the
street is obviously much more stern and she knows I'm serious. The most
difficult thing is saying 'no' with conviction when you just don't really care
that much (like the pantry door).

~~~
MrKurtHaeusler
I think you are doing it right, with different levels of conviction. If you
give a really stern "no" just for something harmless like opening the pantry
door, she might not react when you really mean it. In fact it might even be
better just to let her in the pantry, and save the "no"s for when you really
mean it.

------
zabar
French here. Indeed the view of the articles seems idealistic, but it rings
true in lots of aspects. If you are interested in learning more about the
cultural differences especially around children education, there is a great
book written by a French psychoanalyst, now living in the US called l'Autre
rive. You can download it for free in French or English on his website
<http://www.pbaudry.com/> I read it a few years ago before moving to New York,
and from my experience, most of it is true. I found it interesting to put
words on things we don't necessary noticed and try to find the reasons behind
them.

------
Tichy
"After about 10 minutes, Leo stopped trying to leave altogether."

I think there is another possible explanation: by stopping to chase Leo, it
stopped being a game for him. It might not have been her sterner "no" at all.

Also I'd like to point out that the French are famous for putting their kids
into kindergarden from the age of 3 months. From my perspective (dad of a 16
months old who is still at home) that seems rather cruel.

~~~
lysium
I was also wondering why the kindergarten aspect was completely missing in the
article, as if it did not happen.

It could well be that French children do not see their parents so often and
are ready to do whatever is needed to have a comfortable atmosphere during the
few hours they see them, in particular if their parents don't play those
games.

~~~
watmough
The cynical might suspect that the idea of providing state-subsidized
kindergarten to the very young, in order to promote happier children and less-
stressed parents, might be something that wouldn't make it into the WSJ.

------
Nogwater
To focus on restaurant behavior, I'd be curious to know how much time the
average French person spends at the table in a day, compared with the average
American. I'm sure it varies a lot from family to family, but it seems like
Americans (and I'm no exception) rush through their meals, while the French
linger and socialize while eating. Maybe that has something to do with French
kids being more well behaved in restaurants.

~~~
emixam
We do stay for a long time at the table. At lunch it's usually 1 hour (even at
work) and it can be much longer in the evening, 2 or more hours maybe if we're
at a restaurant. When I'm at my parent's house, it's never less than an hour.
French people tend to talk a lot when at a table!

------
sakura_k
Ugh. So many parents in the US believe to the core of their selves that their
children are child-emperors, too rare and delicate to suffer the torture of
being denied a single whim.

Not to get too "get off my lawn", but when I was a kid, kids didn't rule
public spaces the way they do today. Many parents not only won't tell their
kids "no" under any circumstances, they freak out if anybody else asks their
precious spawn to stop kicking them on airplanes, running into their legs with
shopping carts, or shooting BB guns at their home's windows.

Also, get off my lawn.

------
tnuc
The economist had review last week. A link for those that may be interested.

<http://www.economist.com/node/21543122>

------
sshah
French parents learned to ignore, say no to their kids from their parents who
learned from their parents and so on. In other words - it might be in their
culture. I grew up in India and do find a lot of similarities in my upbringing
- our egos were not always served, maybe 30% of times. We had family in US and
I noticed - kid's egos in their families were served 90% of the times. As
mentioned in the article, kids were ruling their life...whereas in my family
it was the other way around. Did it make any difference in the lives of those
kids or mine - that's a different topic. My point here is maybe American
parents were told to over parent. By whom - not sure, but could be babies r
us, or mattelle sponsored studies, or ads on TV to promote products, etc.

~~~
jf271
I think that saying no to kids is one of the most important things you can do
to help them. Too many of the kids my kids grew up with never heard the word
no during their childhood because their parents wanted to give them everything
they did have while growing up. They ended up being spoiled brats and got even
worse once the school system in the USA got a hold of them and told them what
unique individuals they were. Disappointment is a part of life and how to
handle it is something that should be learned early in life.

------
manuletroll
I think the author didn't go to the same France I live in.

~~~
mohene1
Manule, When Americans go to Lyon, they go to France, when they go to France
they go to Europe.

You don't need to go to France to find well-behaved children, but this is what
appeals to Americans the most: "Beautiful redhead child", France is great,
etc. And these reaffirming notions are great in appeasing your audience and
selling books.

Interesting article b/c Gary Marx, Professor Emeritus in Sociology at MIT,
wrote (in 1961) :

<http://web.mit.edu/gtmarx/www/whitenegro.html>

Be warned, you may be slightly offended. A synopsis. On the cusps of the
"revolution" in 1961 America, Marx states American mothers were increasingly
trying to be "hip". Now, there is actually a magazine called "Hip Mama" sold
at Whole Foods ( <http://hipmama.com/> )

He mentions a story about a hippie, who were then called "beats", firing a
caretaker because the caretaker's thoughts on raising children was too rigid,
traditional and overbearing. I think this is where the temper-tantrum nation ,
me-first phenomenon began.

I have friends like the author of this article who want to empower their
children, not tell them "no", etc. For them, it comes from an almost religious
belief in freedom. Meaning , whenever making a decision focus on what is most
free as opposed to what works.

I remember watching a segment about a high school science class in Oregon who
threw imported crayfish into a local stream because they didn't believe in
killing, and wanted the crayfish to be free. Well, the non-local crayfish
started killing off the local crayfish.

[http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/science/jan-
june11/pledge_03-...](http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/science/jan-
june11/pledge_03-10.html)

~~~
paganel
> As has often been noted, the black bourgeoisie take a very positive stand
> toward middle-class values and are very critical of average Negroes. Frazier
> has written, "they have accepted unconditionally the values of the white
> bourgeois world: its morals and its canons of respectability, its standards
> of beauty and consumption. In fact, they have tended to overemphasize their
> conformity to white ideals." 2 They have strongly internalized middle-class
> values emphasizing self-control, deferred gratification, achievement,
> extreme cleanliness and rigid moral standards.

Never thought that an Eddie Murphy sketch would be close to on-topic on HN,
but here it is anyway (I think his story refers to the late '60s-early '70s):
<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gsbk_lwioxY>

------
JoeAltmaier
My boys grew up this way, in Iowa, in the 90's and 00's. Maybe it has more to
do with population density, having a parent at home and a community with
shared values.

Anyway we ended up with 3 Eagle Scouts, one now a veteran, one a CS graduate
from CMU and one a 3-time all-stater in cello. Just regular Iowa country kids.
You could trust them with anything - your car, your life savings, your
girlfriend.

They learned to work hard at a young age (6-8) at home, at church and on their
Uncle's farm; to get themselves organized for school from the start; to clean
a bathroom and do dishes. We never talked down to them.

Their friends work hard with a smile, want nothing more than to be treated as
an adult. Its easier I guess when their friends share the same goals, the
lessons seem natural and normal.

We did this consciously, left the big city when they were old enough to feel
limited by sidewalks and malls, and bought land in Iowa where I grew up. I
don't think that's all necessary or possible for everyone. But it sure helped!

------
hcarvalhoalves
Very interesting essay. I'm not sure if this is a "French get parenting right"
as much as it is "American parenting is screwed up". I'm from Brazil myself,
and it's worrying to see that, together with the latest economic changes
(higher income), parenting is getting more distant to what she describes to
happen in France, and is starting to shaping up the same problems seen in USA.
I from a 80's generation and had an education close to what she describes, but
nowadays parents work overhours to try to afford an expensive lifestyle, kids
are raised by nannies and they basically play videogame the whole day. I'm
sure this lifestyle doesn't allow kids to educate themselves with so many
distractions and instant gratification around, and in an atmosphere that
demands so much from parents (working overhours instead of enjoying the
family, having time free for friends, dinners, etc.).

------
gnat
I much prefer the Guardian's "Digested Read" version of this book:
[http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2012/jan/29/digested-read-
fr...](http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2012/jan/29/digested-read-french-
children-dont-throw)

------
ig1
The problem is that well-behaved doesn't equate to better children.

To quote the YC application form "Please tell us about the time you most
successfully hacked some (non-computer) system to your advantage."

Creativity, rule-bending and being outspoken are often hallmarks of innovators
and entrepreneurs. But obviously patience and obedience are virtues as well.
Culturally we have to make trade-offs deciding which of these we want to
encourage in kids and which we don't.

It's silly to pretend there's just one way that's better across the board.
TMTOWTDI.

~~~
evincarofautumn
I agree with the sentiment (TMTOWTDI), but I also think that it’s hard to
stifle an interested mind. My parents let me alone to do what I pleased when I
was little (play with LEGO, mostly) and that self-sufficiency carried on.

Later, I wanted to program computers, so they let me. I talked on shady IRC
channels learning about network security and operating systems, and that was
fine. The important thing is that there were boundaries—no giving away
personal information, for example—and the ever-present ability to ask for help
if I really needed it. Perhaps it’s not about _refraining entirely_ from
breaking the rules, but rather about learning which rules are okay to break.

------
sunahsuh
I've been reading up recently on dog training since I'm watching my parents'
unruly dog for a few weeks and it's remarkable how similar the keys to
training a well-behaved dog are to how the french treat their kids... I'm not
entirely sure how to feel about that, hah.

------
splat
I would be curious if one could quantify this by perhaps traveling on several
domestic flights in the US and in France of similar lengths and record how
often a child cries to see if there is a statistically significant difference
between the two countries.

------
shapeshed
This is a good example of creating a utopia to explore everything that is
disliked about a status quo.

The article is almost entirely anecdotal with little offered to back up
supposition and conjecture.

------
4th_paradigm
french superiority? this article is based on the anecdotes of an out-of-touch
expat, who has spent too much time in the company of privileged Parisians.

last time i was in France the general atmosphere was similar to this music
video <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FU7bFpPJiww>, teenagers burning down
their own city etc. heh.

------
zobzu
yeah exactly! its because you see _they're french so they do it right_!

no one else tell their kids to say "thanks, please", and no one else dares to
say no to whatever stupid things kids might want!

Exactly. Only the French educate their children.

Guess what. Half the people don't educate the children, half of them do. Or
maybe it's 2/3. Who cares. The point is it has strictly nothing to do with
being French.

(I'm French.)

~~~
mturmon
For the (American) readers of the article, France can be an imaginary place
where the parents use special techniques (described fully in the author's
book, conveniently on sale right over here), and everything is happy and
wonderful.

The part I liked about the sales job is the idea of supporting the child's
autonomy (" _Cadre_ means that kids have very firm limits about certain things
-- that's the frame -- and that the parents strictly enforce these. But inside
the cadre, French parents entrust their kids with quite a lot of freedom and
autonomy.")

France is that magical place where the boundary line between kids' autonomy
and parental authority gets drawn in the perfect mutually satisfying place.

(Not French, but love visiting France.)

------
charlieok
Why is this trending on Hacker News?

------
ahoyhere
I've found this true in most places in (continental) Europe. I spent 4 years
living in Vienna, Austria and was initially shocked & then spoiled by how
well-behaved the kids there are. It'd become simply the normal background for
me, but I was reminded of it again when a friend visited between Christmas and
New Year's and we went to a v. large thermal spa outside of Vienna and were
surrounded by children at the indoor pool.

She said, "Funny that there aren't any kids here." I said, "There are tons of
them! Just look!"

Not only were there at least 30 teenagers of various ages, there were more
than 10 young children under 5, including one infant in arms. All were so calm
and quiet that she didn't even know they were there. Not that the occasional
toddler didn't try to run away from her parents -- I saw it happening -- but
everything was chill. No screeching. No tantrums. No "COME BACK HERE!".

It didn't stand out to me cuz I got used to it, but my friend was
flabbergasted.

Austrians love their kids and treat them kindly and with respect, but never do
the kids get the idea that they are the entirety of the adults' world. (Which
sounds harsh at first, but that kind of relationship is truly codependent and
bad for everyone.)

------
arguesalot
A previous article about how chinese mothers are better created quite a stir.
Is there some sort of parenting crisis in the US that leads to this kind of
soul-searching? (I m not in the US, so i'm curious to know)

~~~
billswift
There is _always_ a "parenting crisis" in the US. I remember hearing this sort
of stuff when I was a kid, 40 years ago, and have seen books on "parenting"
from as far back as the 1920s with the same sorts of stuff.

------
hnecib
I tried hard to find _anything_ in this article that had _anything_ to do with
tech or startups. I really did.

~~~
GuiA
From the submission guidelines:

What to Submit On-Topic: Anything that good hackers would find interesting.
That includes more than hacking and startups. If you had to reduce it to a
sentence, the answer might be: anything that gratifies one's intellectual
curiosity.

<http://ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html>

:)

~~~
hnecib
That's fine I guess. I'm sure there's a good hacker out there that is
interested in the different parenting styles of French and American mothers.
Though I'm not sure about the plural of hackers. That might be a stretch.

There are also hackers out there that are interested in politics, salad
recipes, what Bill Murray is doing, and lolcats. I just feel like I'm on
Reddit is all.

~~~
sliverstorm
In your world, do hackers not have children?

~~~
hnecib
Like I said, they enjoy articles on children, Bill Murray, lolcats, and
politics. We should really post more of that stuff.

------
ImprovedSilence
Not that my sample size is that huge, but to counter this article, my
girlfriend is an elementary school teacher, in the US, but in a VERY
multicultural school. Apparently the one French kid in class is the biggest
little snotty shit, and his parents are mad uptight.

~~~
ardit33
Yes, for some reason french people have this reputation of being very
snotty/arrogant by nature. Especially if they are from Paris.

 _This is total anecdotal evidence._ but I am not sure how can one quantify
snottiness.

