
Some Practical Thoughts on Suicide - Killah911
http://fourhourworkweek.com/2015/05/06/how-to-commit-suicide/?utm_content=buffer7da00&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer
======
eastbayjake
In January, a student from my alma mater flew all the way across the country
to jump off the Golden Gate Bridge. I ended up reading a _New Yorker_ article
from 2003[1] about Golden Gate jumpers and this anecdote stopped me:

 _Motto had a patient who committed suicide from the Golden Gate in 1963, but
the jump that affected him most occurred in the seventies. “I went to this
guy’s apartment afterward with the assistant medical examiner,” he told me.
“The guy was in his thirties, lived alone, pretty bare apartment. He’d written
a note and left it on his bureau. It said, ‘I’m going to walk to the bridge.
If one person smiles at me on the way, I will not jump.’”_

He jumped. And ever since I read that, I've made it a personal mission to
smile at everyone I pass on the sidewalk every day. Not only does suicide have
unknowable impacts on all of the people around you, but even your most
insignificant actions could have an enormous impact on the people around you.
Be good to others -- you never know how much it might mean to them.

[1]
[http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2003/10/13/jumpers](http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2003/10/13/jumpers)

~~~
gheiou
I knew her--the days after her suicide were pretty surreal, because I always
needed to ask my self if I had just been a little more hospitable or a little
nicer that one time, could it have made a difference?

How we act matters.

~~~
tptacek
How we act matters, but we are not as a rule inadvertently responsible for the
serious medical conditions of others. Suicide isn't a disease of affection
deficiency.

It should help to know that reaching the state of being one smile away from
suicide implies a profoundly severe illness; the problem wasn't smiles, it was
the way we route the ill to the mental health resources they need.

~~~
jules
In my view it's a harmful oversimplification that suicidal people are simply
sick and need to get their mind fixed. I know it's not what you meant, but
that's what reflexively rubbed me the wrong way about this comment because I
have seen this attitude multiple times from other people who _did_ mean that.

One needs to consider that suicide is not just an affliction of the mind, it's
also a product of the circumstances a _normal_ person finds him or herself in.
It's not just the thoughts that need fixing, it's the circumstances too.
Usually this is a chicken and egg problem: the thoughts prevent the person
from fixing the circumstances himself, and the circumstances reinforce
negative thoughts. This way somebody can get sucked deeper and deeper into a
black hole of increasingly irrational negative thoughts. Even if the thoughts
are clearly irrational to an outsider, they are not to the person themselves.
Therefore suggesting that they simply fix their mind does not help. In their
view their mind is not just what needs to be fixed, it's also the
circumstances. We all should do our best to not create such circumstances and
to fix them when they exist. In the story of the OP for example, it's fair to
say that the behaviour of the professor played a big role in almost causing
his suicide. If suicide is caused by circumstances a normal person finds him
or herself in, do we not bear a collective responsibility to prevent it, even
if it's just a smile?

~~~
tptacek
No.

If you or someone you know is experiencing suicidal impulses, you are
experiencing a medical emergency. Please get professional help as soon as
possible.

~~~
jules
I did not say that you should not get professional help. You make it sound
like it's the same as calling an ambulance for a physical medical emergency.
It's not. Care needs to be taken in _how_ to get that professional help, and
the story does not end with seeking professional help. Don't "Your mind is
dangerously ill. I've called these professionals to cure it." Such a response
can immediately turn a person off seeking professional help, the exact
opposite of what you hope to achieve. Do "You are in a difficult situation.
Here's what I can do to help alleviate these circumstances, and maybe it's a
good idea to get professional help to help you deal with this situation." It's
always better to convince a person to seek help than to do it for them. Frame
it as if the situation is at fault, and it's normal to have such difficulties
in that situation and it's normal to require help for that. Do not frame it as
a "psychological medical emergency" if you can at all avoid that. If the
person does not want to get help you can always call professional help anyway.

~~~
tptacek
I'm sorry if we're perhaps disagreeing pointlessly. So long as we're on the
same page (as we may have been from the beginning) that significant suicidal
impulses aren't something people should be talked out of by their friends, I'm
not sure we have anything to productively disagree about.

There are a variety of conditions that can make a person suicidal. Depression
isn't the only one.

In some of these cases, the resolution of the problem may involve changes to
environment or circumstances. In others, the resolution might be chemical. In
still others, prolonged inpatient treatment may be required in order to ensure
safety.

What's true in all cases is that the decisions about how to proceed in
resolving the emergency should be made by people trained to do it. As you can
see from many other comments n the thread, our intuition on how best to help
suicidal friends and acquaintances are, at best, unreliable.

------
rcpt
The best quote on this topic that I know of is terrifying:

The so-called 'psychotically depressed' person who tries to kill herself
doesn't do so out of quote 'hopelessness' or any abstract conviction that
life's assets and debits do not square. And surely not because death seems
suddenly appealing. The person in whom Its invisible agony reaches a certain
unendurable level will kill herself the same way a trapped person will
eventually jump from the window of a burning high-rise. Make no mistake about
people who leap from burning windows. Their terror of falling from a great
height is still just as great as it would be for you or me standing
speculatively at the same window just checking out the view; i.e. the fear of
falling remains a constant. The variable here is the other terror, the fire's
flames: when the flames get close enough, falling to death becomes the
slightly less terrible of two terrors. It's not desiring the fall; it's terror
of the flames. And yet nobody down on the sidewalk, looking up and yelling
'Don't!' and 'Hang on!', can understand the jump. Not really. You'd have to
have personally been trapped and felt flames to really understand a terror way
beyond falling.

-David Foster Wallace, Infinite Jest

~~~
coldtea
The problem is that the flames are real and unavoidable, while the
metaphorical flames of those commiting suicide could be some BS easily
overcome and forgotten later, like the bad grades in TFA (a lot of the people
commiting suicide do it starting with similar BS reasons, not because they are
"medically depressed").

Besides, Wallace wouldn't be the best advisor on the matter.

~~~
a3n
You may believe this. I may misunderstand you.

But statements like this are one of the reasons people are reluctant to get
help. My problem is bullshit. I'm weak. What will people think?

Regardless of whether the "reasons" or problems are real (to you) or imagined
bullshit, people _do_ kill themselves over it.

Don't perpetuate an environment that discourages people from getting help.
They're already not thinking rationally.

Which do you think will produce more survivors and thrivers:

"You're problems are probably bullshit."

"You should talk to a professional."

Let the professional decide if it's bullshit or not, and lead the person to
the right treatment.

EDIT: removed swearing.

~~~
coldtea
> _But statements like this are one of the reasons people are reluctant to get
> help. My problem is bullshit. I 'm weak. What will people think? Regardless
> of whether the "reasons" or problems are real (to you) or imagined bullshit,
> people do kill themselves over it._

How does that change what I wrote? Is it the "to you" qualifier? As if things
can't be objectively BS as reasons to commit suicide?

People kill themselves over all kinds of BS and not just by suicide. This
includes nationalism, religion, and even as idiotic things as "dares".

In fact Tim in the article even admits about his own situation being BS. And
it didn't take some huge experience to make him see that, or treatment, or
medication: just a phone call from his mother.

Empathy is understanding that they feel really bad -- it doesn't mean
justyfing the causes of that feeling too.

If you want to help people you need to make them see the BS-ness of those
things (e.g. a failing grade), not overdramatize them as legitimate life-
ending situations for them out of misguided empathy.

~~~
4ydx
Objectively "BS"? What does that even mean? You need to get a grip and stop
your anger towards people who are feeling terrible. If you don't recognize the
kind of imagery (the manly-man imagery) that is typically associated with your
choice of words, please take a moment to reflect on it. You cannot say "I
empathize with you. By the way your reasons for feeling this way are total BS"
in the same breath and have any semblance of actual empathy. You feel yourself
a clever wordsmith, I'm afraid, who packs a gun called "tough love".

~~~
coldtea
> _Objectively "BS"? What does that even mean?_

It means that as far as things to commit suicide for go, a failing grade in
some assignment or a rejection in high school, are not very important in the
grand scheme of life. If someone attempts suicide over the loss of his family,
it's more understandable than attempting suicide because you were rejected for
The Voice.

> _You need to get a grip and stop your anger towards people who are feeling
> terrible._

I'm not sure what you are projecting here. Qualifying something is not anger,
and I'm not talking to people "who are feeling terrible", I'm talking to
people on a HN thread. This is a discussion. It's not very polite to assume
things and feelings for the other end.

> _You cannot say "I empathize with you. By the way your reasons for feeling
> this way are total BS" in the same breath and have any semblance of actual
> empathy._

Yeah, because lots of people never took their friends aside (or vice versa) to
try and help them overcome a dark patch, including suicidal thoughts and
depression, by putting things in perspectove for them. So their version of
empathy is "Don't bother me, go see a doctor and take your meds".

This conversation is like it's taking place in a bizarro alternative universe,
when all suicide is caused by tangible chemically induced depression (which is
the only form of depression in that universe too), and people never
overdramatize their circumstances.

This might be an 21st century American thing, were individuals must absolutely
remove any societal and personal causes for their situation. In these parts of
Europe we find it OK for friends to help us see clearly what's trivial and
what's not, and we had similar philosophies down to the time of Epicurus.

~~~
4ydx
Whether or not somebodies sense of depression is triggered by something
"trivial" or "stupid", it is likely genuinely causing them distress.
Personally I wouldn't pull my friend aside and say, "Hey man you seem down,
but the fact that you just broke up with your girlfriend is a total BS reason
to be upset". Perhaps we are only differing in the way we like to describe the
situation, but your language comes across as being unnecessarily "macho".

------
bayesianhorse
The point about suicidal thoughts is that the urge to have the thoughts is a
symptom of a disease, a phenomenon that is occurring in your brain. And on top
of the other symptoms of the disease these thoughts create their own
suffering.

My advice is not to try to rationalize the urge. If you ask yourself the
question "Why do I have to kill myself?" You will get answers. Bullshit
answers, usually, but they don't look that irrational because of your state of
mind. And a lot of the suffering is caused by these essentially fruitless
discussions.

Another key point is to realize the impermanence of the mind and of the self.
Though it sounds like a buddhist teaching, everyone who survived suicidal
ideation knows this: You enjoy live, then you don't, then you do again.

The mind is never static. Finding that reality helps one to get a grip on the
seemingly illogical phenomenon on suicidal thoughts.

~~~
Dewie3
Right, I've had the experience that thoughts can deeply affect my mood and how
I feel about life and myself. I wonder, though, why most people seem to simply
leave it at that - "some thoughts are bad, be aware of that". Where's any kind
of advice on actually dealing with this mind of ours? Sure, we have meditation
and mindfulness, and at least meditation seems to be very effective for many
things (I don't know enough about mindfulness). But is the mind really such a
chaotic and uncontrollable beast that the only alternative is to focus/quiet
it (meditation), or to symbolically shrug at the impermanence of its
temperament?

We tell people to exercise if we want to get stronger, but the mind is
seemingly something that we either try to repress in an unhealthy way
(alcoholism and friends), just blurt out/vent whatever it has been nagging us
with lately ("talking about our feelings"), or meditate/mindfulness. The last
alternative seems very promising and healthy, though sorely underutilized by
most people, even the "my body is my temple". But I find it strange that there
aren't more alternative (and complementary) approaches that are being
suggested, like trying to think more constructively ("positive thinking" being
a part of this).

People who see the mind as a separate and wild beast will probably say that
the mind can not be controlled. And I would be inclined to agree. But I think
it can be _steered_ to some degree, or at least _nudged_.

~~~
bayesianhorse
Mindfulness is not enough. For one thing, being mindful of your breathing
won't help you a bit when dealing with unpleasant thoughts. But you can start
to become more mindful of these thought, especially when not in a formal
meditation.

The "observing" of these thoughts alone can improve the situation a lot.

Mindfulness training also improves the prefrontal cortex and thus the ability
to control impulses and thoughts. The idea is to evolve the ability to choose
to have a certain thought or not.

Knowing what to do is one thing, doing it is another. Meditation can immensely
improve the latter!

Meditation is not a sufficient treatment for depression or suicidal thoughts,
but it can help to avoid relapses, and it helps to deal with the consequences
of recurring depressions.

------
throwaway8694
"It was only then that I realized something: my death wasn’t just about me. It
would completely destroy the lives of those I cared most about. I imagined my
mom, who had no part in creating my thesis mess, suffering until her dying
day, blaming herself."

I'm sorry, but that consideration just doesn't help. If the pain (or
emptiness) is so strong that you just want everything to stop, this
consideration is absolutely worthless and unimportant.

~~~
tptacek
You're being downvoted, but if you read advice on how to help people currently
experiencing suicidal impulses, one of the first things you learn is not to
try to combat them with messages of guilt or obligation.

As I understand it (surely someone on HN has more exposure to this than I do;
I've lost friends, but not myself experienced the impulse):

The "do's": _listen_ , _empathize_ , _stay calm_ , _be hopeful in tone_ ,
_vector them towards help_.

The "don'ts": _argue them out of it_ , _get emotional_ , _judge_ , _try to fix
it yourself_.

~~~
michaelochurch
This is great advice. While suicide is often associated with depression,
because people with major depression are often suicidal, the predominant
attitude at the time is often one of unbearably intense anger or anxiety.
Getting judgmental or combative is going to increase that.

Also, many suicides involve alcohol (which, in some, produces a volatile state
that mixes despondency and extreme anger) and drunk people don't exactly
listen to reason.

I think that it can be worthwhile to remind the person that he has friends
who'll miss him, dogs to feed, etc. I don't think that laying in with guilt is
the way to go. You want to give them images of the people they care about
being happy, not images of them being wrecked by their own possible death.

------
beloch
For those experiencing everything from mild depression to strong suicidal
thoughts, I'd recommend the combination of cognitive behavioural therapy, if
you can afford a therapist, and this book:

"Feeling Good: The New Mood Therapy" by David Burns.

Depression and suicidal thoughts are often rooted in twisted, invalid logic
that we don't recognize as such. For example, say that a stranger unexpectedly
smiles at you. It would be logical to smile back, and perhaps even strike up a
conversation to ask why they're smiling at you. The reasons are probably good.
Maybe they're attracted to you. Maybe they just randomly thought of something
funny. The risks of speaking to that person are minimal. A twisted, illogical
reaction that many of us naturally have is to assume the person is smiling at
our expense and that there's something we don't know. We fear what the person
will do or say if we do anything to acknowledge their smile. Instead of
smiling back, we retreat inwards, wondering what's wrong with us, why we're so
pathetic, anti-social, etc.. Two people can experience the same event in
wildly differing ways because of how they process them. For someone who is
depressed, events that should be good can easily add to their problems.

Cognitive behavioural therapy focuses on catching those thoughts, identifying
them as illogical, and deliberately countering them until the thought pattern
in a given circumstance becomes naturally logical. In the situation above, you
would need to recognize that you're assuming a lot about what the other person
is thinking, recognize that the worst that can happen from striking up a
conversation or just smiling back is not very bad, and that the potential
gains could be very good. I had a fairly low opinion of most psychology until
I came across this. It's actually helpful.

~~~
gopher2
Seconded. I'm very grateful for this book.

------
stegosaurus
Foreword: I do not believe I have ever been in a mental state that could be
considered as 'depression'.

That said, I have experienced times in my life that have made me realise that
the common views (e.g. you are free to do anything now; it will get better;
etc) are false. They all stem from the idea that the individual is selfish.

The worst times I've had in my life were the times in which I tried really
hard to be virtuous, to care, to right wrongs.

When I want more than just to 'succeed'. More than just to fix my life. My
life is fine!

Bureaucracy, for example. 'Company policy'. It makes me angry and feel as if
millions of humans have lost the ability to feel empathy, have been turned
into robots. It's not about the fact I can't return a broken lightbulb; I
don't give a toss about the 1 GBP. It's about the knowledge that most people
don't care about right and wrong. Most people will obey the rules, they will
do what authority says, they will take the path of least resistance.

Politics. My country treats the poor as subhuman whilst praising the rich. It
fawns over 'merit'; which is really just random chance.

I could go on... basically, what happens when you realise that you're playing
a rigged game? It doesn't matter if you win or lose. You can run away and
hide. Or you can fight, all the while knowing that your attempts almost
certain to be futile.

Once the box is open it never closes. I cope by employing nihilism, but the
triggers are everywhere. Every 'intellectual discussion' about the merits of
Red vs Blue, about the latest plan to Lock People In A Box for performing
something mundane like shuffling some bits around.

And all around, the advice is to take drugs. Think differently. 'Come to terms
with it'. Counselling... I don't want that shit. I want a city, a country, a
world that treats its citizens well. If not as equals, at least as more than
dogs.

~~~
ldarcyftw
You can't depend on outside world's behavior. You simply can't . It's just
outside of your control so there is no point to worry about it.

------
MarkPNeyer
i tried killing myself many times. every time, something would happen last
minute that changed things, and then life seemed to have a different character
afterwards.

i started to wonder if i actually did succeed after the first attempt in 2005,
becuase life seems so different now than it was back then.

one of the things that finally stopped my suicidal ideation was the belief
that i can never actually experience death. i discovered that other people
with a background in physics had the same belief - quantum immortality.

[http://markpneyer.me/2014/08/13/how-i-defeated-recurrent-
sui...](http://markpneyer.me/2014/08/13/how-i-defeated-recurrent-suicidal-
ideation/)

~~~
Inception
I've often wondered about this, but never knew there was a term for it.

In the past, I've been in situations that I probably shouldn't have lived to
talk about and often wondered if I really did make it out alive. Or did my
perception of reality diverge from the dimension I was in and continue in a
dimension where I defied the odds and lived. Thinking in terms of
multiverse[0].

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiverse](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiverse)

------
downandout
I once had someone I looked up to and admired very much tell me that if he had
gone through some of the things I had, that he would have committed suicide.
Shortly after he said that, he effectively stole nearly $13M from me. I
sometimes wonder if he did it thinking that it would make things so much worse
for me that I actually would commit suicide (because that's what he would have
done), and I wouldn't be around to fight him for it.

You can't let bad experiences, bad people, and just plain bad luck make you
start thinking about suicide. The reality is that most people that consider
suicide don't do it. However, merely entertaining suicidal thoughts can be a
caustic force in your life, as these thoughts affect every aspect of your
life, and more importantly, hinder your ability to move on from the situation
that caused the thoughts in the first place.

When your life crumbles, chances are it wasn't built on a strong foundation to
begin with. As long as you're still breathing, you have an opportunity to
rebuild it.

------
madamepsychosis
Something I think could help people in these situations but doesn't have much
popular support - over-the-counter antidepressants.

It's telling that the author was able to check out a book on suicide, but
didn't seek medical help. That would require a) getting past the stigma of
suffering from depression b) calling up a doctor or therapist c) suffering
through the long mental health wait times that exist in most countries, d)
being sent to a CBT therapist, given a self-help book or website e) being
referred to a psychiatrist f) finally being prescribed something.

It can be months before a depressed person gets any kind of treatment at all.
And they are the last people to have the energy it takes to navigate a
byzantine healthcare system, or have a friend or family member help them (many
people still believe depression is a character weakness and will punish the
patient for speaking out).

Antidepressants aren't all that dangerous, even when compared to other over-
the-counter drugs like Plan B. They're not happy pills, they often won't even
make a miserable life bearable, but they do give the patient enough energy to
deal with his/her problems. Given the number of lives lost to suicide, and the
high disease burden of depression, I think the safety tradeoff is absolutely
worth it.

I'm aware this comment is going to attract a lot of ill-will and uninformed
comments about anti-depressant efficacy/ woo about happy pills etc. so I
direct you to read this FAQ first.
[https://medical.mit.edu/faqs/antidepressants](https://medical.mit.edu/faqs/antidepressants)

------
lmz
This is why I never want to have kids. I deeply resent being born and being
forced to outlive my parents (his point 2).

~~~
brador
Don't think of it as outliving, think of it as continuing their legacy.

~~~
ionised
This doesn't mean anything if you've decided never to have children yourself.
The 'legacy' ends with you regardless.

~~~
brador
Then reconsider your decision. Nothing is set in stone.

------
ahruygt
I have to commend Tim Ferris for speaking out about this. He's worked his
brand to the point of steel- making it sometimes hard to see him as a normal
human being. I am a fan of his tip and tricks, but I really appreciate that he
was vulnerable here in order to start this discussion.

------
gohrt
One specific thing you can do, that is rather unlikely to counterintuitively
backfire like many ideas, is to simply _make plans with some to meet and talk
/eat/play_ with no pressure.

Having something planned -- an easy commitment, but not a heavy intimidating
responsibility -- gives people a sense of purpose to move foward through their
day/week/month, buying time for luck and expert assistance to come together.

This in addition to steering toward professional help.

------
nosuchthing
It should be a liberating thought - that you've got nothing to lose, go try
something exciting like

    
    
      white water kayaking, 
      hike the Pacific Crest Trail, 
      sail across the ocean, 
      challenge yourself at a sport, biking, swimming, climbing?
      take a safe amount of MDMA and go to a music festival?
      listen to some alan watts [1]
      try fresh cannabis [ideally from Washington/Colorado/California], and music 
    

[1]
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vtQf5kSHKhE](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vtQf5kSHKhE)

~~~
csdrane
When you're feeling suicidal good luck enjoying any of those.

~~~
samatman
That's the beauty of MDMA actually: there's little that suicidal ideations can
do in the face of a massive flood of serotonin. It's like an antidepressant
that works within an hour and lasts for about three.

It can lead to insight that produces lasting change.

 _Please_ heed this last part: if you choose to treat suicidal urges in this
way, tell someone what's going on so you can have support for the following
week. The crash can be _dangerous_ to someone in an unstable place.

~~~
marssaxman
I was not feeling suicidal when I first took MDMA but I had been struggling
with depression for years, and the experience was a key step on the way out.
It was such a clear demonstration of the degree to which my perception of the
world around me, and my estimation of the beauty and worth to be found there,
are driven by the chemical state of my brain. I had thought that I was
depressed because I lived in a crappy world; that first MDMA experience showed
me that I had causality backward, and that I thought the world was crappy
because I was depressed. Insight that produces lasting change indeed.

~~~
lubesGordi
This is really a very important reason to do drugs in the first place,
especially psychedelics. They show you how much of your reality/perception is
based on a temporary chemical/biological state, not what you previously
thought of as 'reality.' It also teaches you to 'ride it out' in the event of
a bad trip (also a valuable experience). Ironically to some, doing drugs like
this can make you more sane.

------
seiji
Actual practical thoughts:
[https://web.archive.org/web/20130721062525/http://suicidesca...](https://web.archive.org/web/20130721062525/http://suicidescale.com/)

------
pronoiac
There is help; here are some resources on suicide and depression, including
hotlines around the world.

[http://mefiwiki.com/wiki/ThereIsHelp](http://mefiwiki.com/wiki/ThereIsHelp)

Disclosure: I run the server.

------
ebbv
This article does a great job of highlighting why I can't stand Tim Ferris.
Even when talking about such an important, sensitive and terrible subject he
can't stop himself from constantly hyping himself up. Every other sentence is
still about how great he is, about how he's constantly talking to celebrities,
etc. Awful.

~~~
stephenitis
So what... Better he not be happy about who he is and his accomplishments? I
don't think that this suicide post was a big humble brag... it was to address
to his own readership a serious issue in his own light. The more role models
that follow this line of thinking to their own audiences the less suicides and
more awareness there might be as a whole.

I applaud founders/engineers/leaders who speak transparently on the topic.
shout out to Kyle at Keen.io for his very personal post in reaction to brad
feld's own [https://medium.com/@dorkitude/entrepreneurship-and-
depressio...](https://medium.com/@dorkitude/entrepreneurship-and-
depression-5c4b19a06d83)

[http://www.feld.com/archives/2014/10/founder-
suicides.html](http://www.feld.com/archives/2014/10/founder-suicides.html)

------
Dewie3
> In a tragically comic way, this was a depressing realization when I was
> considering blowing my head off or getting run over. Damnation! No
> guarantees. Death and taxes, yes, but not a breezy afterlife.

Well if the afterlife is terrible, you're going to end up there at some point
anyway. So unless your religion says that suicides are punished, I don't quite
see the argument.

Pascal's Wager can be used as an argument against any practice that some
religion frowns upon, for that matter. If you accept his argument (I stopped
doing that many years ago).

EDIT: and though we, in this _realm_ , have no definite knowledge of what the
Afterlife (if any) is, there is no guarantee in the Afterlife. So maybe you'll
end up betting on Pascal's Wager through all such realities, indefinitely. And
who's to say that, even if you have a wider and "higher" perspective, that you
can ever be _sure_ of the true nature of reality, and that there is nothing
"above"?

~~~
o_____________o
> So unless your religion says that suicides are punished

Most of them do in one form or another, especially the Abrahamic tree.

~~~
Dewie3
At least religions like Buddhism don't punish you for an eternal afterlife. At
worst it's just "bad karma".

~~~
Mikeb85
No, but there are hell realms in Buddhist mythology, which can be the result
of 'bad karma'. They're not eternal, but they don't sound particularly
pleasant either.

~~~
Dewie3
Buddhists bet their horse in one particular lifetime on eventually escaping
suffering by following Buddhist teaching/philosophy. Some suicidal people bet
their horse on escaping a more immediate suffering. Other than the immediacy
of the suffering, their both existential "bets" from the perspective of the
author, and so I don't see a great distinction between either strategy.

~~~
Mikeb85
> Buddhists bet their horse in one particular lifetime on eventually escaping
> suffering by following Buddhist teaching/philosophy.

Not actually true, otherwise all Buddhists would become monastics, which they
don't.

Buddhists believe that positive karma is accumulated over many lifetimes, and
negative karma is extinguished after periods of suffering.

In Buddhist thought, it's often enough to simply live a reasonably 'good'
life, then you'll be reincarnated into a heavenly realm, or possibly another
human body, etc... There are degrees of everything, and very few Buddhists (if
any) believe they're going to achieve liberation after only a single lifetime.
Even the Buddha was thought to have lived hundreds of lives, eventually
culminating with his miraculous (by traditional accounts) life 2500 years
ago...

~~~
Dewie3
Is any of that supposed to contradict any of what I said? I don't see it.

Though what you've written here doesn't contradict my current mental model of
Buddhism, I might have been wrong in assessing Buddhist's motivation as
universally being about _eventually_ ending suffering. Maybe some are content
with a good, pleasurable existence, and not necessarily Nirvana? Though the
fact that not all Buddhists are monastic doesn't in itself imply that - even
if being monastic leads to _more quickly_ achieving Nirvana, maybe some
Buddhists don't feel that they are in such a rush, at least in their
particular lifetime?

> There are degrees of everything, and very few Buddhists (if any) believe
> they're going to achieve liberation after only a single lifetime.

That's why I wrote """eventually escaping suffering"""!! I said nothing about
escaping suffering _in the span of one_ lifetime. Only that they choose to
devote their life to the goal of _eventually_ achieving this "escape". Note
that I contrasted this goal with people who commit suicide; people who commit
suicide - because of depression and suicidal thoughts - do it to escape
suffering in _one particular lifetime_. Hence, why I contrasted this with
Buddhism as "a more immediate suffering". I thought my choice of words, to
deliberately contrast these two kinds of sufferings, would be enough to get
the point across to someone who understands Buddhism (probably better than
me). But I guess you were in a _lecturing mood_. Good for you, buddy; we've
all got to have hobbies. And web forums are as good a place as any to do that.

~~~
dang
> But I guess you were in a lecturing mood. Good for you, buddy

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