
After Senate vote, NSA prepares to shut down phone tracking program - tux3
http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-nsa-tracking-program-20150523-story.html
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suprgeek
I think "shut down" means "move to collect via other means which are currently
classified". Once the tiger has tasted human blood it is always a man-eater.

They have ONE and ONLY one mandate "Collect all the things".

There is virtually no chance that the NSA will stop collecting this
information until there is actual meaningful oversight.

If DNI James Clapper can directly lie to Congress publicly and face no
consequences & the CIA is able to spy on the Senators & then whitewash it -
there is zero credibility left in any intelligence agency following the rules.
At this point we might as well say it - we have let loose the dogs and now are
at their mercy.

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drcode
What's sad is you comment sounds EXACTLY like something a conspiracy nut would
say, except most of us probably agree with your sentiment 100%.

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pnathan
But, he's _not wrong_. Collect all the things is _exactly_ their mandate. This
information is then mined to produce actionable intelligence. It's absolutely
what we do in business today, but turned toward diplomatic aims.

I don't see why this is a conspiracy kind of thing. We have a _spy agency_ ,
that are hired to do SIGINT spying.

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hyperbovine
> Collect all the things is _exactly_ their mandate.

Where is this written down?

Facts matter. Especially in debates like this.

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gknoy
Their "Mission" page indicates their SIGINT mission:

""" The Signals Intelligence mission collects, processes, and disseminates
intelligence information from foreign signals for intelligence and
counterintelligence purposes and to support military operations. """

Collecting All the Things is not in the mandate, but it's a very effective way
to meet it. I'm not even sure how they'd go about collecting only mission-
specific information without being able to peek at the metadata they collect
on us all.

I don't like it, but I don't see an alternative way to do what they are
mandated to do.

0:
[https://www.nsa.gov/about/mission/index.shtml](https://www.nsa.gov/about/mission/index.shtml)

~~~
raquo
> foreign

That's the keyword there.

> for intelligence and counterintelligence purposes and to support military
> operations

This is meaningless without oversight.

~~~
swombat
> > foreign

> That's the keyword there.

Ah, but they don't know if it's a foreigner until they look at it. So might as
well collect it all and figure out which ones are the foreign ones later.
After all, the data's not actually "collected" until an analyst looks at it.
It's a sort of Heisenberg-data - only exists when you look at it. While it's
sitting in the NSA data centre, it's entirely harmless!

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analog31
What's to "prepare" for shutting it down? Reminds me of the story where John
Coltrane told Miles Davis that he didn't know how to end his solos. Miles
said: "Try taking the fucking horn out of your mouth."

~~~
logn
They're not going to shut down a single thing. They need to roll out a half-
assed update to 'minimize' data on US persons, and also open investigations of
potential criminal activity into as many millions of Americans as possible
(because they can keep surveillance on in that case).

They'll probably try to do this as sloppily as possible because as long as
they can claim surveillance of US people is unintentional, it's legal under
FISA 702.

'alter table Panopticon drop column Country;'

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monochromatic
Almost feels like a headline from The Onion. "Oh yeah, we're totally gonna
shut it down just because it's illegal."

~~~
task_queue
I thought it was satire and chuckled.

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kabdib
With essentially zero visibility, it's meaningless.

Historically they could totally lie, be discovered, make headlines and _still_
no one would go to jail. The folks behind this have more of a chance of
getting tickets for jaywalking than they do of doing time for violating the
laws prohibiting them from spying.

~~~
rtpg
except when these things pass, Google & Co. can decide not to play ball and
have legal backing to do so. Though in this case, Google still needs to
collect info..

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tajen
The way a secret service orders a company to participate to their surveillance
systems is not only using the law. It is often by performing ad hominem
blackmailing, so even if the CEO orders everyone to reject participation, the
low-level operator will let the NSA person in, and his boss will cover the
leak in fear of his child being taken in for drug use at his high school.

~~~
pdkl95
In addition, some people will do it voluntarily (and not talk about it),
motivated sometimes by profit (bribes) or some sense patriotism[1] and duty.
There are many authoritarian collaborators in this country - including way to
many from the tech industry.

[1] misplaced, as they should be supporting the Constitution, not a particular
administration

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everettForth
The Senate is going to meet May 31st to prevent the shut down from happening.
This was their most successful vote on Saturday. 57 out of 60 votes needed.
[http://politics.nytimes.com/congress/votes/114/senate/1/194](http://politics.nytimes.com/congress/votes/114/senate/1/194)

Notice all Democrat Senators voted for it. They are going to spend all this
week trying to bring over 3 more Senators by offering to add amendments to the
bill.

The time to act is now, not May 31st minutes before the vote. Does anyone know
how to reach out to Senators and let them know that we want them to let
section 215 of the Patriot Act to expire, and not to vote for USA Freedom Act
simply because a few new amendments might be added in the next week?

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drawkbox
There is a long way to go to shut these down. Other areas of the Patriot Act
such as "sneek-and-peek" are also needing to be rooted out. Over 99% of sneak
and peak uses were for domestic crime. I ask what is wrong with our regular
law + justice systems where this was needed?

 _The 2013 report confirms the incredibly low numbers. Out of 11,129 reports
only 51, or .5%, of requests were used for terrorism._ [1]

[1] [https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2014/10/peekaboo-i-see-you-
gov...](https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2014/10/peekaboo-i-see-you-government-
uses-authority-meant-terrorism-other-uses)

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jxcl
> Administration officials said later that they had to start the lengthy
> procedure of winding down the counter-terrorism program in anticipation of
> Congress failing to act.

I find this sentence construction grating. They didn't fail to act. They acted
to stop the program (well... so far).

~~~
mkoryak
Here is an interesting quote: "About 300 such searches were made in 2014."

I cant decide if it was better if this was true (and start to mentally
calculate the cost of each search) or if this is a ridiculous lie

~~~
erichurkman
300 searches of `select *`?

~~~
fnordfnordfnord
"About" like, nightly, "rounded" down.

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vonklaus
> After NSA vote, NSA prepares to go dark with phone tracking program, with
> less oversite and less visibility.

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caf
_Intelligence officials warned of a precipitous gap in data collected if
Congress does not come up with a plan before May 31..._

We cannot allow a Data Gap!

~~~
jMyles
I must confess, you have an astonishingly good idea there, Doctor.

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gonzo41
"shut down" is just the new code word for the expanded new program.

That way they can say "we're going start the 'shut down' soon"

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drumhead
I wonder how much of the debate in this thread is being shaped and influenced
by our friends at the NSA and GCHQ.

~~~
throwawayaway
i don't know why you are getting downvotes, they even have a playbook for that
activity:

[https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2014/02/24/jtrig-
manipula...](https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2014/02/24/jtrig-
manipulation/)

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kpierce
They really want to pass the TPP bill. Offer distractions like NSA then "fix
it" after passing TPP.

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zmanian
Great analysis of the state of play on the Patriot Act

[https://medium.com/@pgeddington/is-the-patriot-act-dead-
not-...](https://medium.com/@pgeddington/is-the-patriot-act-dead-not-even-
close-e50a58bcc38a)

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ianstallings
It's funny how they keep insisting the program works and fall back on FUD when
asked why we should continue. Facts don't register with these guys.

~~~
drawkbox
"But the rise of ISIS will continue" they say, and they sure did while the
program was going on as well.

So using a justification that existed and grew while the programs existed just
proves they are for other reasons.

Other parts of the law are also bogus 'terrorism' reasoning including sneak
and peek searches:

 _First, the numbers: Law enforcement made 47 sneak-and-peek searches
nationwide from September 2001 to April 2003. The 2010 report reveals 3,970
total requests were processed. Within three years that number jumped to
11,129. That 's an increase of over 7,000 requests. Exactly what privacy
advocates argued in 2001 is happening: sneak and peak warrants are not just
being used in exceptional circumstances—which was their original intent—but as
an everyday investigative tool._

 _Second, the uses: Out of the 3,970 total requests from October 1, 2009 to
September 30, 2010, 3,034 were for narcotics cases and only 37 for terrorism
cases (about .9%). Since then, the numbers get worse. The 2011 report reveals
a total of 6,775 requests. 5,093 were used for drugs, while only 31 (or .5%)
were used for terrorism cases. The 2012 report follows a similar pattern: Only
.6%, or 58 requests, dealt with terrorism cases. The 2013 report confirms the
incredibly low numbers. Out of 11,129 reports only 51, or .5%, of requests
were used for terrorism. The majority of requests were overwhelmingly for
narcotics cases, which tapped out at 9,401 requests._

So with this one known tool "sneek-and-peek" searches (which in my opinion
violate the 4th), over 99% were used for domestic crime rather than terrorism.

Question: What is wrong with normal justice + law system for domestic crime?

Answer: it is easier to use war powers with no checks and absolute power
corrupts absolutely.

[1] [https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2014/10/peekaboo-i-see-you-
gov...](https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2014/10/peekaboo-i-see-you-government-
uses-authority-meant-terrorism-other-uses)

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louithethrid
After Senate vote NSA prepares to pretend to shut down phone tracking program

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feybay
Great! I really believe them!

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thewhitetulip
Like anybody is really going to believe this :D

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frozenport
Is this a buy opertunity for Cray stock?

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pasbesoin
NSA gets busy backronyming SEA...

~~~
spiritplumber
SafetyEar Agency!

You know, for the kids.

