
Plastic particles falling out of sky with snow in Arctic - tysone
https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-49295051
======
vinayan3
Governments are slowly starting to take single use plastic seriously. A good
list of government actions varying from Countries to cities is here:
[https://www.nationalgeographic.com/environment/2018/07/ocean...](https://www.nationalgeographic.com/environment/2018/07/ocean-
plastic-pollution-solutions/)

Private industry as well like Coke is going to put water into cans under the
Dasani brand. It's not everything but it's a major step in reducing the waste
caused my plastic.

But plastic is in other products as well like toys, electronics, etc...
Individuals must be aware of this and need to make better choices or else this
problem will just continue.

I am hopeful we can take collective action to clean up the environment and
live sustainably.

~~~
dcolkitt
> Individuals must be aware of this and need to make better choices or else
> this problem will just continue.

No they don't. At least not if they live in the developed world. Virtually all
disposed of plastic in the US and Europe is sequestered in solid-waste
landfills. Modern landfills leak virtually nothing to the outside environment.

Virtually all environmental plastic contamination comes from third world
countries in Asia or Africa. In particular China, Vietnam, the Philippines and
Indonesia. Due to rampant corruption and lack of oversight these countries
have gross mismanagement of their solid waste disposal.

Plastic is completely fine to use. As long as it's properly disposed of,
there's essentially zero environmental impact. If you live in a first world
country, I can assure you that your plastic straw will absolutely not end up
in a turtle's nose. The issue is that the international community needs to
hold Asia and Africa accountable for not upholding global standards on ocean
pollution.

[1] [https://www.dumpsters.com/blog/how-do-modern-landfills-
work](https://www.dumpsters.com/blog/how-do-modern-landfills-work) [2]
[https://ourworldindata.org/plastic-pollution#mismanaged-
plas...](https://ourworldindata.org/plastic-pollution#mismanaged-plastic-
waste)

~~~
martyvis
It seems at least one first world country is sending recycling waste to
developing countries for supposed processing
[http://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-05-22/malaysia-flooded-
with-...](http://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-05-22/malaysia-flooded-with-plastic-
waste-to-send-scrap-back/11136322)

~~~
nineteen999
Yes it is becoming a real problem here in Australia.

[https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-01-11/australias-
recycling-...](https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-01-11/australias-recycling-
crisis-one-year-on-whats-changed/10701418)

And just recently we started sending recycling to landfill in many places:

[https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-08-06/councils-sending-
thou...](https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-08-06/councils-sending-thousands-of-
tonnes-of-recycling-to-landfill/11385458)

Historically we've "outsourced" our recycling problem to Asian nations rather
than develop or implement solutions at home, and unfortunately now our
chickens are coming home to roost.

~~~
photojosh
> rather than develop or implement solutions at home

I find this absolutely infuriating... it's the perfect job to give to the
CSIRO (our public scientific research organisation) and provide government
grants to get local recycling off the ground. There's so much talk around
"supporting local industry", but when decisions are actually made, they use
overseas suppliers 9 times out of 10.

~~~
nineteen999
Agreed. I mean if we look at the CSIRO's list of achievements:

[https://www.csiro.au/en/About/History-
achievements/Top-10-in...](https://www.csiro.au/en/About/History-
achievements/Top-10-inventions)

and considering the defunding that has been going on, particularly with
respect to climate change:

[https://www.theage.com.au/national/victoria/csiro-
australia-...](https://www.theage.com.au/national/victoria/csiro-australia-to-
suffer-for-ignorance-on-research-20160207-gmno7t.html)

It really is a sad picture indeed.

------
condercet
I'm scared and feel totally powerless. Everyone around me who I've talked to
about this either feels the same or thinks its a complete hoax.

The whole habitable planet thing was nice while it lasted.

But seriously, does anyone have any suggestions on how a software engineer can
make any sort of meaningful impact on this? Or even groups of software
engineers, as many of the people here feel similarly. This is a problem that
must be solved.

~~~
dillon
Software engineer here. I wouldn't necessarily say this is specific to
software engineers. But I do think individuals can make an impact in many
ways. Using your money to purchase products that are free of plastic and is
sustainably made is one way.

Another action people can take is to refuse working for an employer who
doesn't take sustainability seriously or is an obvious polluter. I recently
switched jobs from a place that put API's in front of warehousing, logistics,
and fulfillment. They did not take sustainably seriously. Tons of plastic
packaging and inefficient warehouses.

I'm now at a retailer that is extremely conscious of sustainability. Their
warehouses and stores are all 100% carbon neutral and are starting to divert
90%+ of all waste from ending up in landfills. Data centers are also carbon
neutral. Sustainability decisions ARE business decisions. In my experience,
I've seen most businesses separate sustainability and business. It's
refreshing to be somewhere that molds the two together. I wish more businesses
took this approach.

If you are interested in making an impact then do some research on the company
before your next interview. At the end of interviews they give you the
opportunity to ask questions. Ask about sustainability and see what their
reaction is.

~~~
chillwaves
I think it's misguided to talk up individual action over government
regulation. I'm sure it feels nice to "do the right thing" but it's not
impactful. In some cases, it frees up resources to be further wasted by the
problematic % of people who just don't give a damn.

My suggestion is always to elect better politicians and write better laws.

~~~
esotericn
You can do both.

~~~
chillwaves
The focus belongs on government regulation and smart polices. Example: the
current landscape of recycling in America is a complete scam for the most
part, outside of aluminum cans.

Personal behavioral changes will not impact on the scale required.

------
jessriedel
"Number of particles" is a bad metric. One way to formalize this complaint is
that this measure is independent of Avagadro's number. In particular, there
are many more molecules in a liter of water (~10^24) than there are liters of
water in the oceans (~10^21). So if you tag all the water molecules in a
single glass of water, fully mix that water in the oceans, and then scoop out
another glass from the ocean on the other side of the world, that second glass
will contain many tagged molecules.

These misleading sorts of statistics also appear when people discuss detection
of radiation, e.g., detecting minute radioactive fallout in the US after the
Fukushima meltdown.

~~~
perfunctory
Which part of "freaking plastic is falling out of the sky in fucking ARCTIC"
is misleading?

~~~
jessriedel
Maybe this will help. Consider the first cup of water that Egyptian pharaoh
Tutankhamun drank on his 18th birthday. That water is currently raining down
on the Amazon forest. This is not a good argument that we are being
overwhelmed by pharaoh water. (Of course, the plastic could be a big problem;
this just doesn't show it.)

~~~
perfunctory
So what in your view would be a better statistic?

~~~
jessriedel
The fraction of the snow by weight that is plastic (ppm, or whatever),
especially with a comparison to the amounts historically and to levels that
are known or reasonably suspected of having bad consequences. This, for
instance, is how particulate matter is quantified for assessing air quality in
urban areas (one of the more harmful and less appreciated environmental
damages).

------
sbierwagen
Direct link to the (open access) paper:
[https://advances.sciencemag.org/content/5/8/eaax1157](https://advances.sciencemag.org/content/5/8/eaax1157)

------
08-15
By what kind of logic does one get from

"some of the contamination may have come from ships grinding against the ice.
[...] some may have come off wind turbines."

to

"do we need so much plastic packaging?"

------
todipa
I think we should ban the use of plastic where there are viable alternatives.
Kids toys are mostly made of plastic when they could easily be made of wood.

------
coolaliasbro
I dream about one day opening a non-profit/co-op grocery chain called "Tarable
Grocery". The capital outlay would be considerable of course, but ultimately
and optimally, the chain would lease containers to members who would fill them
with bulk products, returning to refill them or return them as appropriate. My
vision here would be to make available quantities of essentially any bulk food
option that would be consumed by the local market before spoiling. The
stocking system would be a hoot and there would definitely have to be some
sort of central purchasing apparatus, but I think it's doable.

------
mjevans
Could we please get paper bags back by default in stores again? Ban the
plastic checkout bags.

I can see having a fee for 'luxury' versions of the bags (EG handles) or for
an oversized bag (compared to small single items)...

However I'm pretty sure the stores loose more on the bulk of credit card
transactions than they do on the item bagging fees.

------
FrozenVoid
Pretty sure future generations will treat microplastics as asbestos or leaded
fuel today. Especially since its widespread in the air.
[https://www.nature.com/articles/srep46687](https://www.nature.com/articles/srep46687)

------
gjmulhol
Want to use your CS/dev skills to help solve this problem? Come join us at
Citrine Informatics: [https://citrine.io/careers](https://citrine.io/careers)

~~~
zimmund
Mind sharing a bit about what your company does and how is it trying to help
solve this problem?

------
anewguy9000
sick and tired of the media saying this is irrelevant. global warming is a
straw man.

~~~
vinayan3
They are linked because plastic is produced from petroleum. Green house gases
are emitted to extract and make plastic. The growth of plastics is highly
linked with our increased use of fossil fuels.

------
nanaboo
RIP humanity/world. We had a good run

Supposedly it's even in the water. Measured in Germany by german labs. They're
introduced by cosmetics like the abrasive perls some cosmetics use.

~~~
deelowe
Cosmetics were a scapegoat. All plastics breakdown into smaller and smaller
particles, but never fully degrade. Ever seen UV damaged plastic that felt
like it just turned to dust? That dust is microparticles.

~~~
08-15
Not true. Plastic that is collected and incinerated degrades to carbon
dioxide, water and nitrogen. You can't collect used cosmetics.

~~~
sachdevap
Only if it were that clean: "Finally, waste-to-energy plants have the
potential to emit low levels of toxic pollutants such as dioxins, acid gases,
and heavy metals." [0]

Just plastic is never "just" plastic. There will always be contamination of
trash with potential for emission of pollutants.

[0]
[https://www.nationalgeographic.com/environment/2019/03/shoul...](https://www.nationalgeographic.com/environment/2019/03/should-
we-burn-plastic-waste/)

~~~
08-15
Your whataboutism still proves that not all plastics degrade to microplastics,
doesn't it?

There is also a difference between the bulk of some material becoming
something else and traces of some side product being emitted, not to mention
potentially better technologies like molten salt oxidation or plasma
gasification.

