
Fat-fueled brain: unnatural or advantageous? - todd8
http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/mind-guest-blog/the-fat-fueled-brain-unnatural-or-advantageous/
======
rotwoof
I've been doing Keto since Feb 25 2016. My primary goal when switching over
was weight loss, which turned out to be easy. I'm 25, male and was
experiencing growing health complications related to obesity. I've lost well
over 60 lbs since making the switch despite the fact that I maintain a
primarily sedentary lifestyle though I now work out weekly as well as take bi-
daily walks.

There are downsides though. It's not cheap, it's restrictive and it requires
you to build a fairly sizeable knowledge base in order to successfully
maintain the diet and your own health. For instance your body consumes more
water in order to burn fat stores which leads to the body burning through
electrolytes more rapidly. It is very common to supplement electrolytes every
day. It is common to drink broth while on Keto in order to cover the daily
salt intake requirements of Keto, ~5000-7000mg every day on top of normal
dietary salt intake. Failure to cover the daily electrolyte requirement will
lead to muscle cramps and more severe symptoms brought on by electrolyte
deficiency in the body. Prior to supplementing magnesium I experienced leg
cramps and quickly realized what was going on.

However there are significant health benefits. Weight loss, improved mental
clarity and better energy levels throughout the day, as well as less need for
frequent meals are positive effects that a lot of people experience on Keto.
It is also a useful tool for reversing lifestyle diseases such as diabetes
type 2 and pre-diabetes.

When it comes to the stuff you "have to give up" while on Keto it's mostly a
case of strict moderation rather than completely cutting things out. The
things you do try to cut out though like bread, sugar, potatoes, pasta, corn-
syrup etc have good alternatives available in most grocery stores. You can
bake bread out of almond flour, make pasta out of almond flour (or have
someone make it for you), replace potatoes with sweet potatoes and so on.

If you're thinking that keto sounds like it's too much hassle please leave me
a reply and I'll gladly talk about whatever you're unsure about.

~~~
dave_sullivan
Has there been any more research into the long term health effects of Keto?

I tried it years ago, but found it to be more of a pain than it's worth (I
seem to have better luck with intense exercise 3x per week and avoiding
sugar). And it seems like tons of meat and cheese is actually bad long term,
in the sense it clogs your arteries or increases cancer risk.

Atkins did not look like he was in good shape inside when he died.

It strikes me as a body hack that bypasses a lot of bodily processes evolution
may have counted on as we developed. But it seems like we know a fair amount
about the chemistry and processes involved, so I'm curious.

~~~
rotwoof
>And it seems like tons of meat and cheese is actually bad long term, in the
sense it clogs your arteries

This is an inaccurate conclusion based on old studies where the subjects
underwent a high-carbohydrate high-fat diet. Recent studies on ketogenic diets
(low-carbohydrate, medium-protein, high-fat intake) shows that dietary fats
and dietary cholesterol barely make any sort of impact on the subject's
cholesterol. Rather it is dietary carbohydrates and genetics which are the
primary contributor to raised cholesterol and arterial blockage. When it comes
to arterial blockage, studies have found that there is no significant
correlation between high dietary fat intake and cardiovascular disease.

>or increases cancer risk

Keto is primarily a high-fat diet, not a high-protein or high-carb diet.
Studies have showed that a sugar found in red meats called Neu5Gc is primarily
correlated with inflammation in the body and the development of certain
cancers.

If you're on keto you're less likely to develop cardiovascular disease, and
while there is not enough data yet to draw a scientific conclusion preliminary
research indicates that individuals who follow keto are at less risk of
developing cancer due to restricting sugar intake.

See:
[https://www.reddit.com/r/ketoscience/search?q=cancer&restric...](https://www.reddit.com/r/ketoscience/search?q=cancer&restrict_sr=on&sort=relevance&t=all)

All of these posts link to multiple, verified studies which go into details
about what I just said.

~~~
AstralStorm
What you said about cancer risk or long term safety of the whole class of
those diets. Especially anything related to mortality and morbidity endpoints.

Cholesterol numbers are nowhere near the end of story, they're just markers.
Rat and mice studies are useless for this purpose.

Please correct me if I am wrong. Preferably with published larger studies. In
humans.

------
jlturner
I'm on my third ketogenic diet stint, and I can attest to how fantastic it is.
I'm narcoleptic and I experience nearly no symptoms on the diet, my fiancée is
epileptic and is transitioning off her meds to the ketogenic diet (with the
supervision of her nutritionist and neurologist), and a former employee uses
it to keep her benign tumor from spreading (actually! And she's totally
normal, again with doctors). All of us report much better hair, skin, daily
energy levels, ability to think more clearly and focus better, and massive
weight loss. The first month my first time doing keto I lost 30 lbs without
trying to, ended up being a total weight loss of about 70lbs and I became very
lean and muscular.

Why stop? Bread is delicious and it make social eating event difficult / less
engaging. You can take a meal off from the diet and be fine, but it's a
slippery slope of will power.

~~~
misiti3780
no alcohol either ... that is a deal breaker for a lot of people (including
myself)

~~~
Sargos
Alcohol is actually fine on a low carb diet. Beer has carbs but Vodka, Rum,
etc are totally fine.

In fact alcohol tends to have a greater effect on you when in ketosis so you
even save some money when out drinking.

------
trendia
Genetics plays a very large factor in fat and cholesterol metabolism, and one
that I think explains the variance in success with the ketogenic diet.

e.g. FTO, PPARG, APOA5, FABP2, and APOE.

Essentially, not everyone processes fat the same way, and for some, especially
those with APOE4/4, a high fat diet may actually be deleterious to health.

People with the right genes will have great success with ketogenic diets...
but convincing their friends to join in might not have the outcome they
expect.

~~~
alakin
This is key.

Apoe status appears to control the absorption rates of LDL cholesterol (tiny
balls of fat).

Individuals with apoe4, appear to have really low LDL cholesterol absorption
rates between cells, and high blood-LDL cholesterol concentrations.

Having done a bit of research on optimal dieting, its pretty inconclusive.

This study shows negative consequences resulting from high fat diets for
apoe4:
[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27656136](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27656136)

------
tetraodonpuffer
what I wonder every time I hear people be very enthusiastic about how their
diet improves their quality of life, is if it's just a case that eating good
food and working out (which a lot of people do when starting a new diet) is
the trigger to feel better as opposed to the vegan / raw food / ketogenic /
paleo / high-carb specifics, not to mention the obvious placebo effect of
starting something new that supposedly will help you feel better.

It does feel that we as a species, being omnivore, can do just fine on all
sorts of different diets, and maybe the reason these testimonials come up for
all sorts of different diets, is that it's the staying away from sugar /
processed food, the working out, caloric restriction, weight loss and
consequent improvement in quality of sleep that cause the improvements, as
opposed to the food specifics.

Going from eating fast food, not working out and sleeping badly, to eating
less caloric whole foods, working out and sleeping well would make anybody
feel so much better and lose weight, regardless of what type of whole foods
they pick.

If this is the case, then it opens the opportunity to pick your diet more
based on say environmental impact or ethical reasons, as opposed to say
feeling that your veggie diet is not as good as your friends' paleo diet
because you have been veggie for 10 years and your friend just went paleo and
so they are in the "omg I feel so much better" phase.

Wish it was possible to do a double blind study on diet and its effects but
unfortunately for obvious reasons that's not possible. On the other hand it is
quite possible to quantify your diet's environmental impact / footprint, which
makes minimizing it reasonably feasible.

~~~
circlefavshape
I was wondering about this too. Many of the comments on this thread are "I
felt great on keto and lost X lb/kg". Could you be feeling better just because
you lost weight? if you have no weight to lose is there anything to gain?

~~~
redwards510
I think a lot of those types of testimonials come from people who have tried
other dieting styles and failed with them. One of the biggest reasons that
people really enjoy keto is that a high fat + protein diet leaves you feeling
sated even though you are eating less calories. You are not STARVING all the
time like with a simple calorie reduction diet. Another reason is that by
eliminating sugar/carbs, you aren't dealing with large insulin spikes anymore,
and that evens out your mood.

~~~
cuddlybacon
+1

I tried the standard advice (Canada Food Pyramid + exercise). I felt miserable
(tired, irritable, hungry) and couldn't sleep well.

Keto has been the exact opposite. I feel great all the time. I sleep better. I
no longer get daily nosebleeds. For the first 6+ months, I didn't exercise at
all.

------
rpazyaquian
The main problem I have with ketogenic diets is that it's actually quite
difficult and sometimes expensive to eat a 90-95% fat diet. I tried it for a
while, and since I couldn't have carbs OR too much protein, I had several
instances where my dinner in a pinch was melted down cheese and half-n-half.
Your diet basically becomes cheese and avocados with some, but not too much,
salmon or chicken. I'm not arguing that it doesn't work for a good subset of
people, but it's not the kind of diet that's easy to keep up over time or is
all that economically feasible for some. Keto diets are actually _more_
restrictive than vegan or kosher or halal, and it's not a surprise that
they're mostly prescribed for epilepsy - it definitely feels like a "sick
person diet".

I also wonder if it's possible to work out while doing keto. Since muscles use
glycogen to work, and the keto diet is intentionally low in glycogen, does
that make weight training and cardio harder? Especially the former, since
you're limited in how much protein you can eat, and strength training benefits
from having ~150g of protein per day.

~~~
Nav_Panel
> _The main problem I have with ketogenic diets is that it 's actually quite
> difficult and sometimes expensive to eat a 90-95% fat diet_

From what I've seen, your diet should be ~60-70% fat, 5% or less carbs, and
~25-35% protein. Definitely not 95% fat.

> _I had several instances where my dinner in a pinch was melted down cheese
> and half-n-half. Your diet basically becomes cheese and avocados with some,
> but not too much, salmon or chicken_

What about vegetables? I ate a lot of salads when I did keto. I also ate a lot
of fattier meats, such as cured italian meats and ground beef. No reason to
eat super lean protein when fat is most of your calories; buy the cheap fatty
stuff and enjoy it. Also, eggs? I was having an omelette every morning.

> _I also wonder if it 's possible to work out while doing keto_

It's very possible:
[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22835211](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22835211)
but I doubt it would be if you're not eating _any_ protein...

~~~
rpazyaquian
I prolly fucked the diet up, then. It certainly _felt_ like I was eating
almost all fat...good to know that I can take advantage of cheap fatty meats
like short ribs, oxtail, and marrow then.

As for vegetables, I missed carrots and peas too much. Mustard greens and
broccoli are apparently okay, though. I could always just make salads out of
baby spinach and arugula, but I suck at making salad dressings.

~~~
Nav_Panel
> _As for vegetables, I missed carrots and peas too much. Mustard greens and
> broccoli are apparently okay, though. I could always just make salads out of
> baby spinach and arugula, but I suck at making salad dressings._

The rule for veggies is to avoid starch and stick to dark leafy greens.

My go-to easy dish would be a "taco salad", where I'd cook some ground beef
and serve it with cheese, salsa, sour cream over lettuce. There's also lots of
dishes possible with kale and spinach.

> _take advantage of cheap fatty meats_

Fish included! No reason to worry about eating "too much" salmon. Cook it with
butter sauce and it should fit your macro-nutrient ratios perfectly.

> _I prolly fucked the diet up_

As another comment said, it's no wonder you felt sick. Also, the "keto flu" is
a known phenomenon while your body adapts and flushes all the water out of
your system. Drink a lot of electrolytes (chicken broth is a good source) and
you'll feel better.

------
wpietri
No comment on the main topic, but the "unnatural or advantageous" binary in
the title is a confusion that I really dislike. "Natural" and "good" are
independent axes. No relationship should be assumed. Tuberculosis is natural,
but not good. Brushing your teeth is unnatural, but I'm happy to call it good.

This can seem obvious, but the error crops up all the time in serious ways.
E.g. women voting and joining the workforce was seen as unnatural, therefore
wrong. People market all sorts of quack remedies as natural, and therefore
good.

It goes the other way, too. Slavery was seen as right, and people decided it
was therefore natural. (See the various declarations of secession of the US
states for examples.) Violence is seen as wrong, so people decide it must be
unnatural, ignoring our long history as predators, the amount of education we
give children about not hitting, and our societal structures for limiting
violence.

Is and ought: two entirely separate things.

~~~
abandonliberty
Cyanide is also natural.

Organic farming permits organic pesticides, half of which are cancerous as
well and may have worse environmental impacts [0]. The organic label doesn't
guarantee that you're getting more ethical/better/safer products - and it is
worth a lot of money.

[0]
[https://www.ocf.berkeley.edu/~lhom/organictext.html](https://www.ocf.berkeley.edu/~lhom/organictext.html)

Funny, when I first saw your comment it was collecting negative votes, so I
came in to lend it some support. Now it's on top!

~~~
eth0up
A few thoughts: Does 'organic' regulation permit the use of paraffin coatings?
I imagine the prolific use of paraffin in conventional produce could make
rinsing away pesticides quite difficult.

Copper sulfate is one of the most common organic pesticides that I am aware
of. It's certainly nothing to gorge on. However, when handled safely, it may
be preferable to directly engineering a pesticide into the plant.

On the organic farms I tended, there was very minimal use of pesticides or
herbicides. The inherent diversity of the farm allowed the temporary
discontinuation (rather than synthetic maintenance) of problematic plants, and
either experimentation with others, or the continuation of what was presently
working. For weed control we relied on hay and profuse weeding by hand, some
of the weeds being edible (amaranth) and providing snacks during the process,
at least for me ;) Personally, I prefer this method to glyphosate.

The term "natural" may not be synonymous with "healthy and safe", but it does
functionally delimit e.g. Roundup from acetic acid.

~~~
jerf
"For weed control we relied on hay and profuse weeding by hand,"

For a while I've said that "robotic fast food joints" are one of the
touchstones I'm using to say that robotics has really arrived. I've been
considering adding "robotic weeders" to my list. How much would our
agriculture change if instead of pesticides, we physically weeded everything?

The robot may not even need to "remove things by their roots", which would be
quite complicated; if it can sweep by reliably every two or three days just
trimming everything that isn't desired crop would probably do fine.

Bushy plants low to the ground might take more work, but given the way corn
grows it seems like we could robotically weed corn pretty effectively.

~~~
eth0up
Of course, it would result in less hours/pay for some, but I'd still welcome
_effective_ robotic (solar-powered?) weeding anytime. Maybe it would work with
corn, but the vegetables I'm accustomed to are delicate and I suspect it would
be a great undertaking to duplicate the efficiency of the hand on a large
scale. I'm honestly not sure if "trimming" would work or not. Seems
frightfully difficult to me, but so is ingenuity. PS: I am not a professional
farmer, so take my opinions accordingly.

------
artellectual
Actually, I've tried the ketogenic diet. It's great, however it does have
negative side effects. That is the lack of fiber. This can lead to
hemorrhoids. Which can be extremely painful. Everything was great, I burned a
lot of baby fat, but it was painful in the toilet, there was bleeding
involved.

You need to supplement yourself with fiber if you want to try the ketogenic
diet.

~~~
vixen99
There are many options for avoiding your problem. Vegetable fiber using
vegetables with minimal or zero reserve carbohydrate should do it. Cabbage for
instance also offers additional benefits from its phytochemicals. See for
instance
[http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0304423806...](http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0304423806000483)

~~~
CuriouslyC
You can even go one step further and eat Sauerkraut. A lot of the (limited)
carbohydrates in the cabbage are fermented into lactate, which has some health
benefits, and if you make it yourself it is a good probiotic.

~~~
rjsamson
Yup - and it's got a lot of potassium too! Definitely a keto staple for me.

------
CuriouslyC
While I don't think a ketogenic diet is an optimal diet in terms of longevity
or overall health (as all blue-zone diets are carb rich), it does appear to
confer some benefits in the short term which are fairly compelling. The vast
majority of humans are adapted to seasonal eating, with high carbohydrate
diets during spring, summer and fall, and very low carbohydrate diets during
winter (or during the wet/dry seasons). I suspect that our bodies have evolved
around short periods of keto-adaptation as part of a natural rejuvenation
cycle. Given our modern non-seasonal eating habits, that would mean we're
missing out on a natural bodily process that is important to health.

~~~
whiskers08xmt
Out of curiosity, are there any areas with a fat rich diet, which has good
access to quality health care? It seems most cultures, which aren't based
around hunting and gathering, have a carb based diet, as it's simply the most
feasible for supporting a large population.

~~~
CuriouslyC
Not all blue zones have access to stellar health care. I'd argue that the
health care of Nicoya peninsula in Costa Rica isn't much better than what
keto-adapted people of Alaska or Greenland have access to, but the life
expectancy difference is pretty large.

------
tew28
Something to watch out for - the first time I tried a ketogenic diet, I
developed a terrible rash on my torso after three weeks. After a few fruitless
trips to the dermatologist, I found that it was very possibly something called
prurigo pigmentosa, a rash that tends to occur in people fasting or in
ketosis. Someone even set up a website about it - www.theketorash.com. It's
unfortunate, as I had been successfully losing weight. No one really knows how
to treat it, except for, well, eating more carbs.

------
shanusmagnus
This has been scattered around the existing comments, but I'd be really
interested to hear people who are keto comment explicitly on its perceived
cognitive effects. I know a number of pretty successful scientists who have
told me they feel that being keto provides them a significant performance
advantage. I'm really interested in how it affects perceived energy, clarity
of thinking, fatigue, and creativity.

I'm gearing up for keto induction myself in the next month (the social things
are the hardest for me to deal with, so require a lot of planning to make it
feasible), but I'd love to hear (or be pointed to) stories on this topic,
especially for knowledge workers / intellectual-types.

~~~
serg_chernata
I went through about 2 months of pure keto earlier this year. Small
disclaimer, I generally follow a "warrior" diet and intermittent fasting. I
think keto gave me a similar "sharp" awareness and energy. For whatever
reason, not eating, while difficult at first, provided me with even more
energy and clarity in the same way keto did. Even though I continued doing
fairly intense workouts 3 days a week.

~~~
rudolf0
I also get a lot of mental clarity and alertness after extended periods of not
eating, followed by tiredness and fogginess after a meal. This might be one
reason why I'm underweight.

Unfortunately, a keto diet isn't really an option for me (vegetarian, and
allergic to many vegetarian protein sources).

I wonder what the underlying science behind it is.

~~~
serg_chernata
Science behind keto? This article explains it pretty well.

~~~
rudolf0
No, the science behind feeling mental clarity after extended fasting.

Unfortunately, everything I could think to Google just returned a bunch of
grandiose pseudoscience.

~~~
serg_chernata
Yeah I'm not a scientist either but I would equate this to the opposite of
feeling sleepy after a big dish of pasta. Food does have a certain effect on
the body especially if it's full of carbs. What I get out of fasting and keto
is the opposite.

------
tzaman
I do keto once a year for about 3 months, and truth be told I feel like a
superman. I feel more energetic, loose a ton of fat (ironically with increased
fat intake), get more stuff done and overall feel better. The only reason is
stop doing it is because I'm a sucker for sweets :)

I started all this by asking a friend of mine who's a personal trainer what's
the best way of loosing 15 kilos (because I was fat) and he prescribed me a
keto diet. Lost all 15 in three months and no, haven't gotten them back.

EDIT: on the flip side, my wife's menstrual cycles got completely messed up
and her periods started to hurt a whole lot more, so she stopped it.

~~~
akgoel
I did keto for 4 months at the beginning of this year, and I did lose 40
pounds, and generally felt great. But then I started getting more active and
picked up tennis. I found that after 30 minutes, I was completely out of
energy. It wasn't that I was tired, it was that I literally felt like I was
out of fuel. Taking a swig of Gatorade immediately picked up my game, and so I
had to introduce carbs back into my diet just to stay active.

~~~
tzaman
That's quite the contrary to my experience. I combined the diet with a daily
5km morning run, and I had no problems with it, not only was I not exhausted,
I was powered up. But maybe that's just placebo :)

------
mattbgates
I have been living in ketosis for the past 2 years, very rarely breaking the
lifestyle diet. Although the majority of my weight loss started off with
calorie restriction and a high-protein/moderate-fat/low-to-moderate carb diet,
I eventually hit a plateau for 6 months, until I finally learned about and
tried ketosis, switching to a high-fat/moderatere-protein/low-carb diet which
allowed me to lose 30 more pounds, for a total of 85 pounds, or 260 to 175
pounds. I have logged almost everything I have eaten with
[https://LoseIt.com](https://LoseIt.com) so I have the data to show everything
including before and after photos of myself, along with my complete
understanding of my experience with ketosis. You can read my article here:
[https://mypost.io/post/no-bullshit-diet](https://mypost.io/post/no-bullshit-
diet)

------
fnsa
I did a keto diet for a few months 3 years back and one of the things that I
noticed very quickly was the reduced need for sleep. I slept at least an hour
less every night and I felt great. Apparently it's due to a reduced production
of melatonin.

------
mtreis86
Anecdotes:

I started keto over a year ago after struggling with weight my whole life. I
have always been heavy for my height. Anyways, two years ago I was in a
motorcycle accident and the doctors told me that having plaque in my arteries
significantly increased the damage (I had internal bleeding requiring
surgery). So I decided to fix my shit. Started working out a couple times a
week, but the weight didn't go down for six months, when I found keto.

I won't get into the benefits, unless anyone has specific questions. I just
came here to say this:

Once in ketosis, I started learning to enjoy hunger. Enjoying hunger made
weight loss work without much conscious effort. I have lost 50 pounds in a
year, then maintained the lower weight for another year.

------
mrob
If we're sharing anecdotes here, I've also tried a ketogenic diet for about 2
months. I wasn't trying to lose weight, I was just curious what it was like.
The only change I noticed was I became slightly weaker, lifting only about 90%
of my previous weights. But this might have been placebo, because I had
already heard that it could happen. I stopped the diet because it made cooking
and eating difficult for no obvious gain.

~~~
jlturner
The first time I did keto I lost a lot of weight until I started lifting, and
while the scale stopped changing entirely I continued becoming much more lean
as a result. Definitely have more power lifting with carbs though.

Also it's possible that your carbs weren't low enough (the diet is extremely
restrictive, generally you want less than 10-20g carbs which is most / all
from leafy vegetables) and you may have been stuck in glycolysis/ ketosis
transition which makes you feel weak.

~~~
mrob
I followed the restrictions carefully and confirmed ketosis with urine testing
strips. And I didn't _feel_ weak, I just couldn't lift as much. I doubt I'd
have noticed any difference at all if I wasn't lifting.

------
coldtea
For those talking about ketogenic diets in general, try Atkins 2.0.

I'm not for fads, and I don't even believe claims that "caloric intake doesn't
matter" if you only eat protein/fat etc.

That said, I've found that their Atkins 2.0 four-stage plan makes sense, and
incorporates most of what modern studies say.

It's also not the caricature "steak and eggs" diet that some people believe
Atkins or ketogenic diets are. They have some strict whitelist of food for the
stage 1 (2 weeks, which you can extend to lose weight faster), but the other 3
stages gradually add back carbs into your diet, and you are even encouraged to
add them "at your own personal balance", so you end up with a final balanced
diet you can keep following forever that's not about ketosis anymore but
health and sustaining your weight.

They do promote some of their own branded snacks etc, but you can ignore
those, and they have tons of information on their site to do the diet on your
own.

As I wrote in another comment, following it for 3 weeks, immediately after
trying a couple of others for the last months to no effect. Not only I lost 10
pounds and counting, but am less sleepy and lethargic during afternoons at
work, can wake up better, and have more energy. Those could also mean that I
was gluten intorelant (never bothered to check, but I did ate tons of breads)
and staying off bread made me better. Or maybe it's that I cut sugar
completely which is also part of stage 1 (except for fruits and sweeteners).

I also don't care to eat anymore -- before I looked forward to every meal of
the day (or snacked like crazy between).

------
johnward
"Emerging evidence from animal models and clinical trials suggest keto may be
therapeutically used in many other neurological disorders, including head
ache, neurodegenerative diseases, sleep disorders, bipolar disorder, autism
and brain cancer. With no apparent side effects. "

I suffer from bi-polar disorder and have been swinging back and forth between
a "traditional" (IE eat too much of everything) and a keto diet. My wife has
made comments that she can tell when I am on keto by my mental stability but
I've never read anything to back that up until now.

My only problem with keto is cheating. If I cheat once then I crave anything
with carbs in it. I don't usually have those cravings after about the first
week of ketosis.

------
serg_chernata
Since we're discussing this, I wanted to ask a question in regard to
electrolytes.

First time I tried keto everything was fantastic except I missed the
electrolyte requirement and ended up with heart palpitations along with muscle
cramps and overall crappy feeling once enough time passed and I unwittingly
ignored the electrolytes.

Talking to doctors proved to be worthless because most of them haven't even
heard of keto nor understand why anyone would do that.

Does anyone have advice or reading materials in regard to this aspect of keto?

PS I am a completely healthy male of 27 years old and active lifestyle. I'm
pretty positive there's nothing wrong with me physiologically.

~~~
rjsamson
There are some great resources on the keto subreddit (reddit.com/r/keto). I
personally had similar issues when I first started keto - several times a week
i found i had to be conscious of my electrolyte intake and would supplement
with broth and often almond milk (potassium). However 6 months in I've found
it's less of an issue, even at lower electrolyte intake, but I'm not sure why.
I never found the need to hit the super high recommendations on /r/keto though
- I found that 4,000 - 5,000 mg per day was more than enough, and I'd get
heart palpitations and muscle cramps generally under 2,500 / day. You'll see a
lot of people on /r/keto saying you _have_ to hit 7k+ a day, and people who
drink salted water all day - personally, I think that's overkill.

~~~
serg_chernata
That's what I'm worried about. Taking in too much and simply the hassle of
having to mix salted water every single day.

~~~
johnward
I take ZMA and potassium daily. I will drink electrolyte water too. When I get
home from the gym and feel drained I will drink 8oz of chicken broth for the
salt. I had some severe cramps before starting this.

~~~
serg_chernata
Potassium in pill form is only sold in very small doses, correct? How do you
reach the high daily minimum?

~~~
johnward
I don't know what the daily values are to be honest. I just take it until my
symptoms, mostly cramping, go away and stick with that dosage. I basically eat
broccoli or brussels sprouts with dinner every day. They both seem to have a
decent amount of potassium.

------
eth0up
If certain crazed bureaucracies have their way, it may become burdensome to
benefit from ketosis:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fat_tax#Denmark](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fat_tax#Denmark)

When I experimented with keto, two products were essential to my ability to do
so; coconut oil and butter. It infuriates me that some in positions of
influence and power (but not of productivity!) would dare usurp people's
dietary choices based on the careless assumption that saturated fat is bad.
Although such propositions have so far been unsuccessful, I doubt the mischief
has ended. Where is the Charlton Heston of fat!?

~~~
jsprogrammer
The 'assumption' about saturated fat is not careless. Increasing saturated fat
intake increases total plasma and low-density lipoprotein cholesterol
concentrations.

~~~
eth0up
[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22131700](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22131700)

I support any form of ethical research, but not the hasty imposition of its
ostensible results onto the masses. At least not in the case of personal
decision in regard to diet.

As noted in the above link, ghee has been used for thousands of years. Health
advantages have been attributed to it. There is controversy and that is fine.
Let people make their own decisions. Certainly groups of people having nothing
to do with the production, distribution and consumption of ghee have little
claim to profit, although they may freely wail to their content about how much
they resent it.

~~~
jsprogrammer
People should make their own decisions.

Here are the USDA's macronutrients dietary reference intake guidelines, with
notes on adverse effects of excessive consumption:
[https://fnic.nal.usda.gov/sites/fnic.nal.usda.gov/files/uplo...](https://fnic.nal.usda.gov/sites/fnic.nal.usda.gov/files/uploads/macronutrients.pdf)

------
hackermailman
I do the opposite diet, the Fuhrman "End of Dieting" so called nutrarian diet
of mainly veg and beans with meat once a week, sometimes less. Saved a ton of
money on food, lost weight back to my early 20s levels and have stamina to do
2 jobs, one very physical(climbing stairs all day) and one mentally taxing
that I do 5 hours a day before my physical job. I also have energy to get in a
research paper after both jobs where before I wanted to crash and burn after
eating a heavy meat meal. Complete anecdote but if anybody doesn't want to eat
a lot of meat and keep a low weight read that book.

------
miguelrochefort
Whenever I'm keto adapted, I can fast for 23 hours out of every day without
any effort. I eat once, between 6PM and 7PM.

Recently, I've been following the zero carb movement, which advocates only
eating animal products (meat, fish, fat, cheese, cream, egg) and drinking
water. I'm looking forward to exclusively eat beef and drink water for an
entire month.

------
bill343
If you checkout the foundmyfitness podcast with I believe Dr. Satchin Panda,
ketosis is discussed and the doctor indicates that you can eat sweet potatoes,
or even ice cream once in awhile and not be taken out of ketosis. And even if
it does you can get back into ketosis easily.

------
seangrogg
I see a few ad hoc source recommendations, but is there a solid resource (or
list of resources) surrounding this? Particularly who would benefit from this
diet, good foods, what to expect from your first few weeks/long term, should
it be something you do in phases, etc?

------
caub
I think the body can generate fat from any type of food, even sugars, the
thing is just to learn to use that stored fat, instead of overconsuming

------
iand
Anyone here got tips for a lactose intolerant vegetarian? (and I don't mean
"eat meat" tips)

~~~
miguelrochefort
[http://www.reddit.com/r/veganketo](http://www.reddit.com/r/veganketo)

------
eevilspock
So keto is all or nothing?

I won't experience any benefit by just increasing fat calories and decreasing
carbs?

~~~
miguelrochefort
You're correct.

------
epx
Works very well for me. By far the brain works better.

------
auggierose
Maybe both.

------
zizzles
Nutritional information is laughably conflicting.

Example:

Eat meat, it's essential!

Don't eat meat, it will sky rocket your cholesterol!

Buy organic, it is much healthier!

Organic is over-priced and isn't proven to be healthier, don't buy into it!

Fruit is so healthy, you should eat plenty of it!

Fructose is bad for you, don't eat too much fruit!

Every piece of information you end up reading, there is another piece of
information somewhere out there that completely conflicts it. What even is
FACT anymore?

~~~
white-flame
There's also the fact that bodies are different, and have developed
differently and gotten used to processing things in different quantities and
different ways.

All these studies looking at people overall to figure out the effect of some
food on "the average person" is IMO misguided. We need to study links between
foods and an individual's body state, be it their gut ecosystem,
ethnic/genetic indicators, in combination with the rest of their diet, and
such things.

