
Drones visit California wildfire, angering firefighters - stefap2
http://www.cnn.com/2015/07/18/us/california-freeway-fire/index.html
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kayoone
Sooner or later there will be laws against anything but the most basic drone
flying because of jerks like this. Lately i have been reading an article about
the Dutch government thinking about quite expensives licences for commercial
drone flyers and height and distance restrictions for private flights (which
are already in place in many places). In germany you are generally limited to
50 meters of height in most places for example.

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radmuzom
A reason why many regulations exist even though they do not seem optimal for
this day and age. Those who blindly cry that "regulations are bad" do not
realize that in many cases a very small group of people will ensure the
necessity of the regulations even though it may result in the overall
population being worse off due to the existence of the regulations.

~~~
wolfgke
> Those who blindly cry that "regulations are bad" do not realize that in many
> cases a very small group of people will ensure the necessity of the
> regulations even though it may result in the overall population being worse
> off due to the existence of the regulations.

Then one should think really deeply how to create regulations that only avoid
the problems with the small group, but not make the overall population worse
off.

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lcswi
Selfish %#$&%s. I would fully support the firefighters takings them out of the
sky with any means necessary. Jam their communications, throw nets, have an
'attack' drone, anything. Surely there are some laws about obstructing
firefighters or other emergency services?

~~~
kiallmacinnes
Yea, my first thought was "Just shoot them down".. Then I realized that's
probably harder than it sounds ;) Plus the risk of stray bullets etc etc..
Still, there's likely something that can be done besides wandering the area
and kindly asking the people with drone control's in their hands to stop.

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CamperBob2
I don't see why a shotgun wouldn't be a reasonably safe way to deal with these
things.

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brobinson
The shot can travel a significant distance and still be deadly when they come
back down to Earth.

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CamperBob2
Gonna hafta call [Citation Needed] on anyone killed by ballistic birdshot.

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omginternets
Seriously. Dick Cheney blasted a colleague right in the face and the guy was
able to apologize for getting shot the next day. (I wish I were making this
up)

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Malstrond
According to a reddit post the sighting might actually have been due to a
fully legal RC field in the area.

[https://pay.reddit.com/r/Multicopter/comments/3dqoyh/multico...](https://pay.reddit.com/r/Multicopter/comments/3dqoyh/multicopters_blamed_for_grounding_of_fire/ct7usnq)

~~~
tzs
That seems unlikely to me. The RC field is over 12 miles from the nearest fire
location, and 8 miles outside the boundary of the TFR.

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deckar01
The FAA sets altitude zones to separate drones from helicopters, but these
helicopters have exemptions that allow them to fly low. I have seen someone
fly a drone around a low flying helicopter before. Both the drone operator and
the helicopter pilot noticed each other from a long ways away. The drone pilot
adjusted his altitude to stay about 100ft below the helicopter, navigated out
of its flight path, and both were able to navigate the same airspace safely
for 20 minutes.

These operators would likely do the same if a helicopter was present. You may
need to fly to 500ft so that the operators know there is an aircraft that
needs the airspace. An ambulance doesn't wait at the hospital until the roads
are clear, it turns on its lights and sirens to notify surrounding vehicles to
get out of the way.

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rbritton
They're everywhere, and a few people are probably going to ruin a lot of the
current Lack of legislation around them by doing things like this. At the July
4th fireworks show we went to there were at least four buzzing around the
entire time, and this was just a small one in northern Idaho.

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falcolas
Seems like either the FAA needs to start broadcasting their flight restriction
advisories a bit more broadly (now that they need to be heeded by more and
more people), or people who fly multirotors need a basic "here's how you
follow the rules of the sky" course when they buy one.

~~~
JshWright
Based on some some Reddit comments [1], it does indeed seem like this was a
lack of information, not a malicious action (or even ignorance).

[1]
[https://pay.reddit.com/r/Multicopter/comments/3dqoyh/multico...](https://pay.reddit.com/r/Multicopter/comments/3dqoyh/multicopters_blamed_for_grounding_of_fire/ct7wv7g)

~~~
falcolas
I saw that, but the point that even if flight was normally allowed at that
location, it was cancelled by the FAA advisories, which the multi rotor
operators were not aware of.

If they (well, we, since I'm one of them) want to operate in controlled
airspace, we need to be aware of the restrictions put in place by the managers
of said airspace.

I appreciate that they were willing to shut down so quickly, however. That
shows good will and an interest to do the right thing.

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jaytaylor
It seems like the firefighters should have a device to disrupt the radio
frequencies of the drones in these cases. Whoever is operating them near a
disaster such as this one is being an inconsiderate, thoughtless jerk.

~~~
serf
there are plenty of autonomous systems that require no tx/rx link. They are
usually for photography on fixed courses, after which they return to a home.

Destroy them mechanically if you want them out of the sky.

~~~
iso-8859-1
Would it be possible to hit them with flak cannons, or are they too low?

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a3n
How about very focused and fast (high energy) water cannons, from the ground
and from helicopters, as one among many anti-drone weapons?

EDIT: A drone-clearing drone, carrying the water cannon. It would be sent into
an airspace where a problem drone has been reported, and either water down the
offending drones, or report that they're gone. After clearing the airspace,
firefighting aircraft are allowed in.

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kazagistar
XKCD already has the solution [https://xkcd.com/1523/](https://xkcd.com/1523/)

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simonebrunozzi
I don't really understand how a small drone can represent a problem for a
helicopter, particularly if the helicopter comes from above. Really. Can
someone explain?

Despite this, however, I of course agree on the fact that irresponsible
behavior is to be condemned.

~~~
bradleyland
If the helicopter strikes the drone, or vice versa, it could cause the
helicopter to crash. Think of it like a bird strike, which are also a problem
for aircraft.

~~~
MRSallee
How many helicopters crash because of birds, and how many more birds are there
than drones?

~~~
bradleyland
Where risk to human life is concerned, each individual's perception of the
risk-reward trade-off involved in regulation will vary. Evidence of this can
be found at every airport in the country. So I can see where you're coming
from here.

However, the position you're taking puts you on the side of: people should be
allowed to fly drones in an area where aircraft are responding to an emergency
(a wildfire) that puts other lives at risk. Any drone not flying in
coordinated effort to actually put out the fire is of a priority that is very,
very distant to that of the firefighting aircraft. At least by my measure, and
I'm in the camp that believes the TSA should be abolished.

Any statistical analysis of helicopter bird strikes won't negate the fact that
having drones in the area of operation increases the chance that a pilot may
lose their life to a collision with a drone that serves no purpose than to
populate YouTube with riveting footage of a disaster. Is an increase of even 1
in a million worth that? Not by my account it isn't.

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foobarbecue
Would it be ok for someone to fly their private Cessna over the fire? EDIT:
Nope. Learned about Temporary Flight Restrictions from a comment here. So, we
just need to be enforcing these for ALL aircraft.

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aaron695
This thread currently has the lame self rightness on par with reddit. Evil
humans are stopping firefighters cause they are evil.

Where's the science. Can a drone actually hurt a helicopter. And did the drone
controllers know they were causing an issue, I doubt it.

~~~
nickpinkston
Agreed, are they stopping helicopters for large birds too, or is this just an
excuse?

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kiallmacinnes
Large birds fear for their safety and avoid the helicopter, I'm guessing at
least some drone pilots - especially those willing to fly their drone over
something like this - have less fear for their drones "safety". Hell - They
may even be trying to get "the action shot" by trailing the helicopter etc
etc.

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GeorgeKap
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bird_strike](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bird_strike)

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Houshalter
Would it be possible to develop a drone that avoids airplanes, people, etc?
Not that the operators should rely on it of course, but more as a fail safe.
No one worries about birds flying into aircraft because they are usually
scared of them. Perhaps we could make drones afraid of them as well.

~~~
JustSomeNobody
Why don't we just develop people with better morals.

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a3n
... still waiting.

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brobdingnagian
This is a non-issue - the probability of someone dying because they crash into
a tiny drone is miniscule. They are just being hyper-cautious and raising a
stink about it. They should get on with their lives and drop the water on the
fire.

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spike021
Probably the same people who slow down or stop driving safely to look at
whatever is going on in a single lane or the side of the road (accident or
some other distraction).

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usaphp
what's the problem with slowing down to inspect the accident scene and figure
out if they need help or something, I think this behavior is much better then
that of those who just ignore accidents and drive away without checking if
accident passengers need help.

~~~
spike021
So if there's a tow truck and emergency vehicles already working the scene,
you still should observe and make sure they're okay?

I understand people want to help but in some situations it's better to just
keep going.

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usaphp
Original comment I replied to was referring to accident, there was nothing
about emergency vehicles already working the scene...

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hwstar
In light of this situation, I'm betting California will pass a law this year
to deal with this. The penalties will be severe (Felony).

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rasz_pl
Im getting tired reading all this drone whining. Drones are small and light,
there is almost zero chance of a drone doing any harm to an aircraft, drone on
the other hand will get obliterated. You dont see Firefighters complaining
about big birds.

~~~
threeseed
I can appreciate you getting tired of the whining when you're completely
misinformed.

1\. There are many drones that are anything but small and light.

2\. We are talking about helicopters here. One drone flying into the tail or
even overhoard rotors could easily take it down.

3\. Birds are a natural occurrence and do not view large helicopters as a
threat i.e. they aren't going to consistently and repeatedly fly towards it.
The issue with these drones is that are constantly hovering and constantly
attacking the helicopters.

~~~
rasz_pl
>The issue with these drones is that are constantly hovering and constantly
attacking the helicopters

in the same way people are constantly reaching for a gun when Police kills
someone.

