
Everybody’s Lying About the Link Between Gun Ownership and Homicide - iBelieve
https://medium.com/@bjcampbell/everybodys-lying-about-the-link-between-gun-ownership-and-homicide-1108ed400be5
======
sleavey
All I can say is that, as a Brit (from a country where regular police don't
even carry guns), I find the concept of average Joes owning guns of any
description crazy. It seems like the outcome of a broken society in which
people don't trust law enforcement to protect them. Maybe higher gun ownership
rates don't directly lead to homicide, but that to me isn't even the issue -
the elephant in the room is the massive cultural problem the US has with
firearms, especially the way in which they have been politicised in such a
bipartisan, black-or-white system.

~~~
falcolas
> I find the concept of average Joes owning guns of any description crazy.

It becomes a lot less crazy when you consider that parts of the US still take
advantage of guns as protection against wild animals. It becomes a little less
crazy when you consider that a lot of people use them as a hobby - target
practice (it's part of a few different Olympic sports).

Guns are, practically speaking, no more or less crazy than Bowie knives,
hunting bows, cross bows, or any number of other devices purpose built for
hunting.

> the elephant in the room is the massive cultural problem the US has with
> firearms

Yeah, definitely an issue. It's, oddly enough, largely a city vs. country
issue. People in the city have no practical use for guns. People who don't
have the miles of concrete protecting them from the wilds tend to take a much
more practical view on the usefulness of, the need for, tools that can protect
them from predators with teeth and claws.

I've been within 100 yards of a black bear with her cubs. I'm glad I had a
pistol at the time. I'm even more glad I had no cause to use it.

~~~
DanBC
> Guns are, practically speaking, no more or less crazy than Bowie knives,
> hunting bows, cross bows, or any number of other devices purpose built for
> hunting.

US schools haven't seen a mass murder using knives, hunting bows, or cross
bows. US school mass murders involve handguns and rifles.

~~~
falcolas
I can do a google search and find at least three "school stabbing sprees" in
the US on the first page. In fact, it seems like you're much more likely to be
stabbed while going to school than shot.

Sharks kill, on average, about as many people as school spree shooters per
year. Those deaths to sharks are preventable by offing all the sharks, are we
doing that?

Making policies based on outrage is a losing proposition.

------
bb88
So I'm looking at his data, and I make the following observations.

1\. In Kansas City, MO, the murder rate is 31 per 100,000 people in 2018. [1]
Yet for the state it was 5 per 100,000 in his graph. That may skew the results
towards rural areas with less people.

2\. Montana, North Dakota, Wyoming, and Idaho, while the highest percentage of
gun ownership, are also the least populated. But they seem to skew the graph
downward giving their contributions more weight than Louisiana and Missouri,
say.

[1]
[http://www.kansascity.com/opinion/editorials/article19263428...](http://www.kansascity.com/opinion/editorials/article192634289.html)

------
Overtonwindow
As a gun owner I have a lot of conflicting feelings about them. On the one
hand, I am enamored with the mechanical engineering. On the other, I'm proud
to be able to own them, as a strange rite of practice as an American. The very
essence of our democracy is so well represented in an armed citizenry. That
said.. I agree we need stronger laws. Longer waiting times. Mandatory mental
health evaluations and training. Limits in the number that can be purchased at
one time, in one year. One per year would be fine with me. Between pride of
this right and fascinating with the engineering and physics behind it, I am
conflicted.

------
Hnrobert42
Do have evidence of intentional deceit? Could it just be that those you accuse
of lying are just wrong?

~~~
iBelieve
I didn't write this article. I just found it interesting and wanted to share
it to see what counter-arguments and discussion it would lead to.

------
portofcall
_One: They’re sneaking suicide in with the data, and then obfuscating that
inclusion with rhetoric._

Alternative hypothesis: they’re including suicide data because it’s relevent.
Suicide is homicide (not murder), and they’re including the copious accidental
killings (also homicide, also not necessarily murders).

~~~
iBelieve
I see a difference between suicides and accidents vs murders when it comes to
gun restrictions. If I chose to own guns (I don't), then I'm ultimately
responsible for avoiding accidents and not committing suicide, just as I would
be responsible for any other risky activity or sport I partake in. Murder on
the other hand involves the criminal act of taking someone else's life. In my
opinion, we should only focus on acts of criminal intent when discussing
banning or restricting gun use, and only include accidents or suicide when we
discuss laws that improve safe use of guns.

~~~
hammock
What about drunk driving? Do you think DUI should be restricted even in
victimless cases with no criminal intent?

~~~
iBelieve
Definitely, because drunk driving has the potential to harm others, even
thought it may not always. Also, I'm not sure that's a good analogy, as trying
to prevent drunk driving doesn't take the form of restricting driving for
everyone, while gun control usually affects responsible gun owners as well as
bad people and suicidal/uncareful people.

~~~
portofcall
The single greatest risk factor for someone committing suicide is a first-
order relative who committed suicide. Everything in life isn’t as obvious as
crashing a car into someone, but the harm of suicide extends far beyond the
victim.

------
alphabettsy
People are talking about gun deaths and gun violence. Why would those be
excluded from the debate? Why exclude injuries?

Lots of gun violence doesn’t result in death.

