
Startups and immigration - nnd
https://techcrunch.com/2016/06/17/startups-and-immigration-myths-lies-and-half-truths
======
bonobo3000
This also doesn't mention the horrible inflexibility of the H-1B once you have
it. Once on an H-1B, you literally have ZERO days of unemployment between
jobs. If you are fired, laid-off, or leave your job for any reason at all (say
health reasons), you technically are out of status and can be deported at any
minute. There is an unofficial grace period of about 30 days, which is really
not enough to do any kind of a decent job search (and its unofficial, so
technically you could be deported at any minute). So the only realistic avenue
for H-1Bs is to find a job before leaving the current one - works for most
people, but again, if you are laid-off or need to take time off for any
reason, its simply not an option. Its a horrible system.

~~~
redmaverick
This was the exact reason why I applied for a Canadian PR and moved to Canada.
The PR process on "express entry" takes roughly 6 to 8 months. The only issue
is that the job market and pay in Canada is not as hot (compared to the US
market). This is a small price to pay for peace of mind and having the ability
to start your own company without any kind of immigration hassle.

~~~
ohstopitu
How were you able to have "express entry"? (my parents did it and it took my
family about 5 years to receive the PR - we did it from Abu Dhabi)

The software job market is Canada is kinda terrible (I am a recent graduate
looking for a job - not to mention the salaries in Canada can't compete with
those in US)

~~~
redmaverick
The express entry program was introduced only last year by the Canadian Govt.
They promised to make a decision within 6 months. Previous to that, it did
take years of waiting.

The Canadian Job market is pretty tough.

~~~
njloof
There's a lot of startup activity in Montreal, and costs are cheaper than
Vancouver or Toronto.

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fovc
I'm moving to the EU so that I can start a company. I looked at all these
options and they are incredibly unattractive for a number of reasons:

1) If you want to H1B yourself, you have to demonstrably give up control of
your company to a US citizen. What if none of the co-founders are American?
What if you're a solo founder?

2) The B1 visa only gives you 6 months to figure out an alternative. It's
unclear what the alternative is, and why add that stress during what is a
critical time for your startup?

3) If you have $100K you could go for an E2 visa, but it does not lead to a
green card. You have to renew every 2 year. Exiting your company? Get ready to
exit the country. It also requires you to create a few (single digits) jobs
within the first three years, but that seems less onerous

4) My lawyer suggested that an O1 would be unrealistic unless you've been
recognized publically somehow.

5) If you have $500k to $1M, you could apply for an EB. I don't, so can't
comment too much here.

Fianally, across the board there's an issue of time and money. Dealing with
this stuff will be a big headache that will distract from your company.

 _Disclaimer: IANL_

[1] [https://www.uscis.gov/eir/visa-guide/entrepreneur-visa-
guide](https://www.uscis.gov/eir/visa-guide/entrepreneur-visa-guide) [2]
Personal consultation with an immigration lawyer

~~~
falsestprophet
Why should the United States accept everyone who announces they would like to
start a company? But it does with the E2 visa (for treaty countries).

And your problem is that you can't stay forever when the business fails?

~~~
lkrubner
Awesome, so he will create his company in Europe, generate jobs in Europe,
generate tax revenue in Europe, generate economic activity in Europe, and
create new technology in Europe. USA immigration policies For The Win!!!!!

~~~
Sir_Substance
No offense to fovc, who I wish all the best, but you're assuming his company
will be a success.

~~~
dusanbab
And what's the risk to the US if it isn't? Compared to the impact and risk of
existing visa categories?

~~~
Sir_Substance
Not sure what your point about existing categories is, but with respect to the
point that it might be all roses for the US to invite foreigners to found
companies, just off the top of my head:

Most of the investors that get involved are likely to be in the US, they may
have limited legal avenues to pursue if the company fails due to negligence or
fraud and the founder moves back home.

Depending on the financial status of the founder, the US might have to choose
between providing social support or paying for deportation.

~~~
dusanbab
I'm not saying it's all roses. I'm talking about risk/reward.

I'm trying to compare it to the potential upside of any immigrant category.
Entrepreneurs present some downside, but no more than any other visa/immigrant
category. One heck of a lot more upside though, IMO.

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nul_byte
I can't be done with doing a 'lottery' to work in the US.

I got offered a senior position (distinguished engineer) with a large San Jose
networking vendor, and looking into the H-1B circus put me off.

Perhaps when I was freshly graduated I might have tolerated it, but as someone
with a family and lots of very good opportunities already here in Europe (and
being able to re-locate with minimal fuss to another EU country (unless we
vote ourselves out)), its a nobrainer to stay here. Add to that the whole
potential deportation if you were to lose your job, and an average family home
in the valley costing well above $1 million, nah, I think I will leave it
thanks.

I guess the above is why so few Europeans comes to the US now, and 88% of
H-1B's are from India.

~~~
raverbashing
> and 88% of H-1B's are from India.

I'm sure Tata abusing the system has nothing to do with it

~~~
smnscu
That indeed is the problem, not the system itself. (if you want to continue
with the cheap sarcasm)

I see this pattern so many times in the US, blaming parties involved instead
of the original wrongdoers (e.g. "Facebook and Google are so evil", yet the
NSA and USG are out of the argument completely). That even a fairly educated
crowd such as the one on HN falls for these cheap tactics is a great proof
that in fact this technique works great for manipulating masses of people.
(bonus example: the broken bipartisan and electoral college systems – all the
talk is about how horrible Hillary and Trump are, instead of maybe taking
steps to fixing the system itself | bonus video
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7wC42HgLA4k](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7wC42HgLA4k))

~~~
raverbashing
I fail to see your point, though of course the abuse is allowed by the system.

Compare numbers of H1Bs in relation to number of employees and see how Tata
compares with others

Not to mention most "Java engineers" are a dime a dozen

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DelaneyM
tl;dr: If you're a foreign-born entrepreneur, US immigration may be the kick
in the pants you need to go global. If you're an American voter, you should
stop kicking foreign-born entrepreneurs in the pants.

Personal anecdata:

I'm Canadian. I have two degrees from UWaterloo (CS & Math), have been on the
founding team of three major exits (one "unicorn"), and have a Harvard MBA.
I've lived in the US, mostly under TN status, for fifteen years. (Unlike H1-B,
TN status is not dual-intent, and does not allow immigration.)

I'm starting a new company now in Canada. Labor-intensive, probably creating a
few hundred good jobs in the first year. I'd prefer to start it in the US,
preferably Nevada, but have no _acceptable_ way to legally do so.

This was frustrating for a while, but I'm over it. Europe & Asia are
operationally more complex to serve, but that's less overhead than
immigration. And I've learned the rest of the world has just as much
opportunity (and probably more available investment!) than the US.

I'm just one person, but I've seen this play out five or six times among my
peer group alone. If you're a non-citizen entrepreneur with valley/NYC
connections or US startup experience, I strongly recommend taking that
knowledge and competing in the bigger global pool.

As the global economy flattens, the odds are growing every year that the next
megacorp in the US market won't be American. The government should be fighting
that trend, not doing everything in its power to accelerate it.

 _edit_ : "no legal way" => "no acceptable legal way". Anything is _possible_.

~~~
dusanbab
Wouldn't you have been a good (great!) candidate for an O-1A or EB-1?

Completely understand if you couldn't be bothered at this point though. What a
loss for the US.

~~~
DelaneyM
EB-1: You must have been employed outside the United States in the 3 years
preceding the petition for at least 1 year by a firm or corporation and you
must be seeking to enter the United States to continue service to that firm or
organization.

O-1A: very hard to get in business without either a letter from a
senator/governor or a long history of speaking gigs (according to my
immigration lawyer).

~~~
jgh
I was recently approved for an O-1 and have a less prestigious, let's call it,
career than you. My O-1 was based largely off of open source contributions
(several startups have started based around one of my projects) and funding
raised for my own startup. Perhaps you need to talk to another lawyer.

~~~
DelaneyM
The biggest issue is publicity. You need to be able to demonstrate public/peer
recognition of your achievements, and I don't have anything which qualifies. I
haven't heard of OS contributions being sufficient, but I can certainly see
the argument.

The other (and apparently more common) way business folks get O-1 approval is
an endorsement from a high-level government official. My lawyer was reasonably
confident that if I could secure financing and demonstrate potential this
would be possible, however I'm not comfortable working that hard for that long
only to be held up on the whims of a senator in an election year, particularly
since I couldn't incorporate without having status.

It's frustrating but understandable. The UCIS has no way to evaluate
"Extraordinary Ability", so they can only go off your perceived position
relative to your peers.

~~~
jgh
Yeah the publicity requirement is tough. In my case it's been a couple of
projects I've started (one before was a finalist in TechCrunch Disrupt) and my
current startup that have gotten press, but never me as an individual.
Fortunately I was able to get founders from about 4 companies (both in the US
and international) to write letters vouching for me, as well as a couple
investors which helped. I'm considering whether or not it's worth it to try to
get an EB-1 now, since it is stricter than O-1 and I would need to do some
speaking engagements and get press naming me personally.

~~~
DelaneyM
I get the impression that a lot of people satisfy the requirements by buying
publicity, either placement in trade journals or sponsoring conferences.

Both of those options were suggested by my lawyers, and once you realize it's
possible and common one starts seeing it everywhere.

------
mansigandhi
Hmm. From my understanding, a person's chances of getting an H1-B are
substantially higher from a large corporation as opposed to a 5 people startup
because the large corporations' lawyers submit multiple applications per
person (through the subsidiaries)

My brother has to leave his job this month and move back home, after 4 years
at UIUC and 3 years in the Bay Area because he chose to work at startups
(instead of the large tech companies) and both years the lottery system failed
him.

~~~
gumby
What you say is true only for the outsourcing companies that are in fact
gaming (abusing) the H-1 system.

Google and your startup both put in a single application per person for an
H-1, and at the end of the day spend more for the H-1 candidate than they
would for a local hire (citizen/green card), which is how the system should
work.

------
adamnemecek
The post doesn't mention the Green card diversity lotery. It's a long shot and
like don't rely on it but the odds are slightly higher than zero. I got it on
my third try, my friend on the first.

~~~
snicky
Don't know where you guys come from, but I think you were incredibly lucky. If
I remember correctly, the probability of getting one in my country was around
2%. I tried 5 or 6 times already, a couple of times together with my wife (who
is from another country) and we haven't been that lucky.

~~~
dusanbab
Ok so it's not just me then :)

Yes, country of nationality does make a difference to DV lottery.

------
sidi
Much of this article focuses on the applicability of H-1B visa for startup
founders. As some comments in this thread share their anecdotal experiences
with it, H-1B is very limited in scope.

1.) H-1B relies on a lottery system: with a 0.3 to 0.5 chance depending on
some factors,

2.) and you need an independent board of directors,

3.) and you can't be a majority stakeholder.

Not to mention once you _get_ one, if your startup goes to ground, you have a
month to find another job or risk being deported. Most startup founders in
early life can't afford this.

What US __needs __is a robust startup visa: Startup founders that have x
revenue or investment $$ can come in and work, not H-1B or other diversity
visa hacks. It 's not so hard, Canada has a pretty decent startup visa
program.

------
dineshp2
The Startup Visa[1] is designed to tackle the issue of visas specifically for
founders of startups rather than having founders jump through hoops to fit
into the existing visa categories.

Even though it enjoys bi-partisan support, it seems to get stuck in various
committees every time it's introduced in Senate and left to expire.

[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Startup_Visa](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Startup_Visa)

------
known
And
[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diversity_Immigrant_Visa](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diversity_Immigrant_Visa)

------
vigilant
Does anyone have experience with EB-5? I did a startup in Canada, so am
fortunate enough to have the 500K/$1M.

It looks like it is fair from a panacea - I haven't yet consulted a lawyer,
but based on internet research, it seems like it can be hard to find a
legitimate (e.g.: non-scammy) EB-5 Visa project, and the wait times for EB-5
can fairly long. But at least you aren't tied to an employer, and can do
whatever you want as long as your investment works out and creates the 10
jobs.

~~~
jgh
If you had a nice exit you might be able to use that as EB-1 evidence. That
would be a much better route than EB-5. Talk to an immigration attorney about
it.

~~~
dusanbab
Do you have personal evidence of a good exit leading to an EB-1? You would
think it would, but that category seems difficult for
entrepreneurship/business.

------
sandworm101
>> The research also found that among the billion-dollar startup companies,
they have collectively created more than 65,000 jobs. Immigrants clearly play
a significant role in job creation, entrepreneurship and the startup ecosystem
in the U.S.

Can we please get over this idea that founders conjure jobs out of thin air.
Startups and the jobs they create fill a niche in the economy. That niche is
the product of the wider world, not the whim of a founder. Even where a
startup does create apparently "new" jobs, they often result in other jobs
disappearing elsewhere (see uber v. taxis). Bringing in foreign investment is
great. But we don't need to treat well-funded founders as a special class
beyond the numerous advantages that already come with being well-funded.

I would hate to be the new hire at a "startup" which turns out to be an
immigration dodge, a means of getting a group of founders the necessary
documentation. There are already other visa categories for such things (EB-5).

~~~
johncolanduoni
> Can we please get over this idea that founders conjure jobs out of thin air.
> Startups and the jobs they create fill a niche in the economy. That niche is
> the product of the wider world, not the whim of a founder.

Sure, but practically if not letting a founder enter the country and create a
startup means those jobs won't happen, then how does it change the argument
for more startup-friendly immigration at all? Are you saying that enough
startups with immigrating founders are removing jobs elsewhere like Uber to
make it a net negative?

> There are already other visa categories for such things (EB-5).

How about for the foreign founders who don't have $1mm to throw around? I
can't say I have data on this, but I suspect $1mm of funds/founder is not
reasonable for a lot of startups.

~~~
falsestprophet
If an entrepreneur moves to Canada or Europe to start their brilliant company,
what makes you think an American (or American immigrant) founded and funded
derivative company can't beat them in the market and create the jobs here
anyway?

If Uber was founded in Toronto or London or Shanghai, are you sure that Lyft
wouldn't have crushed them?

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tempw
[http://articles.latimes.com/2013/sep/14/nation/la-na-ff-
immi...](http://articles.latimes.com/2013/sep/14/nation/la-na-ff-immigration-
business-20130915)

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hackerboos
Couldn't one just simply open an office in Canada and operate for a year
before transferring the company to the US?

Would that work under the L1 requirements?

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adorearun
How a H1b visa holder start a company and work for it?

