
Ask HN: How did you move from IT/software to something unrelated? - brailsafe
I&#x27;m a frontend developer in the greater Vancouver, BC area. After becoming burnt out at my last position over a year ago, I&#x27;ve had no success in finding further work and don&#x27;t have all that much motivation to continue the endless cycle of humouring recruiters and sending resumes out. Not because I don&#x27;t like software development, more so because of the cost of continued attempts and lack of potentially inspiring outcomes (technical, very time intensive interviews with very few compelling companies worth the effort) that I am qualified for.<p>Anyhow, I&#x27;d like to apply at companies that, for lack of a better description, essentially pay minimum wage and require building basic skill that I may not have developed in software. Like Starbucks, McDonalds, retail. However, computers and software are pretty much all I know and all I have on my resume. I&#x27;m reasonably outgoing, well spoken, and have some confidence that I can work with others, but making the backwards transition from my career to a more basic jobby job (no intention of being derogatory here) is surprisingly unclear.<p>Edit: Part of the intention as well, is to build versatile skills that might allow more job flexibility in the future. For example if I were to travel and work without requiring a skilled worker visa.
======
ransom1538
SALES. What fascinates me about sales is the ability to bring immediate value
to a company. True value. If you walk in the door and bring in a new sale
order for $100k: the company just made money. It may sound impossible todo.
But it isn't. EG. Selling a twilio account to uber isn't like landing a mars
rover. It is totally possible. Uber needs to send text messages and there are
only a handful of players in that space. If that was your account your cut
could be in the 7figures. You are now the shit.

My friend at Flurry selling mobile ads (in 2012) made over a million in one
year flat. During that year - selling mobile ads was like selling drugs behind
a school. If Flurry pulls in 30million from your accounts, 1million is just a
write off. When I lived in a nicer area of PacHeights in SF, my neighbors with
houses were in SALES: oracle, real estate, franchises , on and on. Javascript
progammers? No.

Applying a new cool bootstrap theme to a website or making that node.js app is
cool, but the value it adds? You are too far down the value stick. One of my
sales friends told me a horrifying statement: "Once we finish signing the
paperwork, everyone else is worthless." It is true. They can get new
programmers, new teams, new infrastructure, new products, hell, money buys
anything.

You can do what this guy does. You probably will need a suite and a smile. But
I think he makes more than everyone on this thread combined. ALSO. If you
passed his desk around 2pm on friday? It would be empty.

[https://www.linkedin.com/in/jason-
eubanks-a775ba/](https://www.linkedin.com/in/jason-eubanks-a775ba/)

~~~
bthrn
> "Once we finish signing the paperwork, everyone else is worthless." It is
> true.

I think that's a fairly myopic, though unsurprising, point of view from the
sales perspective. There's tons of work that goes into making a viable product
that gets the paperwork to be signed. Programmers, teams, etc. are just as
(ir)replaceable as sales staff; when you have the right combination,
everything works well. Handshakes and signatures are the final step of making
a deal, not the defining ones. From a bare financial point of view, once the
paper's signed, you can change your company all you want, but unless the
product/service continues to be well-made and add value to the customer, the
money's not going to keep flowing. Engineering talent is not exactly fungible.

~~~
tootie
I'm in the IT services biz and while sales is a huge part of the process,
they're selling our ability and our reputation which is based on our track
record for quality execution. We don't sel them on "we're good at JavaScript"
but we do sell on "we can design and develop high-quality technology
products".

------
peckrob
I stated my career early - while I was still in high school. I went from
bagging groceries and doing checkouts at a grocery store to programming for a
local company my senior year of high school. I continued doing this for my
first couple years of college.

But then dot-bomb happened and it looked like the party was over. I looked
down at the job opportunities after graduation. I didn't really want to spend
the rest of my life wearing a tie, writing bank software and sitting in a
cubicle every day, so I decided to try something different.

I became a seasonal park ranger. And it was _awesome._

Like most jobs, I got it through knowing someone. My grandparents had
volunteered for the NPS and were able to connect me with the right people. I
became a seasonal park ranger at Yellowstone.

It's not for everyone. The pay is not great, but you do get lots of good
benefits because it's a government job. And you're often living in remote
areas (the nearest grocery store was an hour and a half drive from where I was
stationed). It's also not conducive to family life if that's your thing
(again, the closest school was 1.5 hours away and everyone around me was my
coworkers). And the days are long, helping tourists, checking permits, etc.
Permanent jobs are also incredibly hard to get - you usually have to do years
of seasonal work to accrue enough seniority to get considered for a permanent
position.

But the benefits? Being able to crack open a drink after a long day and look
up at more stars than I _ever thought existed_ \- I spent many nights on the
front porch of my cabin looking up at the Milky Way. Hiking, camping, boating
on the weekends are easy because I was right there in the park. Clean air,
clean water. A good group of coworkers (for me) who legit really care about
protecting these astounding natural resources. And a feeling that you're
really making a difference and reaching people.

I did this for a few years and they were among my happiest years prior to my
marriage. Ultimately, I ended up going back into tech after things recovered.
But there are days that I really miss the outdoors and wearing the uniform.

So I guess my advice would be to forget about skills and whatnot and ask
yourself, outside of tech, what do you like to do? I mean really like to do?
And can you turn that into a job? Can anyone you know network you into a job?

~~~
brailsafe
This is an astoundingly relevant answer to my question and thank you for
taking the time to tell your story. I don't have an answer yet but this gives
me something to think about. I share the same interests outside of the office
and the same feeling you had once the bubble burst. I was hoping to find some
advice on how I could turn the experience I did have into something beneficial
to a potential employer—such as the NPS—but thinking long and hard about what
I'm good at, want to do, and who might be able to help me get there is
probably a more feasible route.

~~~
Ultimatt
I'd consider also how you can pivot slightly rather than completely. Coming
out of my undergrad degree I had absolutely zero interest in writing boiler
plate style software suited-up in a large company. Instead I took on jnr
research positions in other fields like earth sciences as a research
assistant, working with satellite data and high throughput laser scanning.
Essentially the computer/robotics guy for people not capable of that but with
grand ideas. You can find these sorts of jobs on NewScientist or Nature jobs
listings, academics are incredibly accepting of computer literate field
swappers. Eventually I realised a PhD was essentially the only way to have
freedom in the space of research. So I found the most general explorative
course I could, which at the time was a new PhD centre training a large cohort
(60+ students over 8 years) in complexity sciences. The experience of being
around a load of smart people from various backgrounds all working on
interesting problems cannot be under estimated as a morale boost. I now also
have a wide network of friends doing cool stuff I can always rely on in a
pinch for perhaps finding fun work. The course was super rapid switching
between subjects with maths covered the whole time. It gave me exposure to
most university departments and the sorts of big problems everyone had.
Eventually I came across protein structures and molecular biology which was
only something I only had a rough understanding of coming from computer
science, self studying the biology behind genetic algorithms. The realities of
that field have completely sucked me in forever, like nothing I've really
found before. I had a misguided try at doing some robotics before settling on
molecular biology. But now post PhD I get to work in companies that are doing
really interesting stuff, and on software that's relatively creative and
cutting edge to develop compared to what I could have been working on post
undergrad. Not all software has to give you that trapped dead end feeling.
I've recently switched jobs simply because what I was working on wasnt quite
engaging enough and I felt trapped by the higher rents that tend to be common
where techy jobs are aplenty. But you really dont have to accept this at all
once you have some experience and a network of contacts developed.

~~~
lj3
> But now post PhD I get to work in companies that are doing really
> interesting stuff

Isn't it crazy hard to get hired for a research position? I was told in the
past that just because you had a PhD didn't mean you would automatically be
able to find a job doing interesting research.

> The realities of that field have completely sucked me in forever, like
> nothing I've really found before.

In what way?

~~~
Ultimatt
>Isn't it crazy hard to get hired for a research position? I was told in the
past that just because you had a PhD didn't mean you would automatically be
able to find a job doing interesting research.

It's crazy hard to get hired for a permanent research position in academia at
a university people will have heard of. In science and engineering <10% of
people go on to PhD and <10% of those PhDs who graduate find a permanent
position. If you don't feel like you were the top 1% of your year at uni, then
its going to be harder, or you've been under appreciated and are good at
research rather than being taught. So yeah to remain in academia being paid
little actually takes you being incredibly good. But getting an operational
research job in something like an innovation or RnD department, in a company,
is about as hard as getting any other job once you have some experience, and
are qualified for the work. A PhD is not at all required though. But in life
sciences its kind of important right now. The main issue of work being
"interesting" is probably if you have directly relevant experience or not,
which is a lot less likely as a researcher. If you're like me though and can
get interested in almost anything then pragmatism wins. Plenty of knowledge
and research skills are completely transferable. Getting a PhD is not really
about skill or ability its an endurance race that very few people even sign up
for and even less finish. By definition finishing the race means you are
capable of doing it. It's a trial by fire.

Nothing is automatic in life. The number of hopelessly incompetent people with
a PhD is only slightly less than the number with an undergrad degree or
without any higher education. That doesn't change. But yeah if someone sucks,
they suck. That's never something that can be overcome with a piece of paper.
But a PhD at the very least usually represents a level of dedication to trying
to make yourself suck less that others were unwilling to sign up for. That's
probably about all its ever recognised as. My experience to date is people
with a PhD are hugely self starting, and capable of pushing a project along
independently. Which is simply a product of being left alone floating in a
room for several years expected to solve something independently.

> In what way?

The main way is that I come from an AI background by training. Many of the
concepts from that field set you up for sort of reverse engineering how things
might be working in molecular biology. It's not that cells and proteins are
remotely like computers, but they are doing heavy computation in a strange way
and AI is essentially the field of understanding strange computation. The main
thing I was interested in when I was doing an AI degree were optimisation
problems and specifically genetic algorithms. Turns out evolution of molecular
biology -the real thing- is just vastly more interesting and complex in a way
you wish you could get genetic algorithms to behave. Better yet is that the
alarming rise of biotech to actually manipulate how life works, means for all
intents and purposes theoretical work you do in molecular biology can directly
become technology. It's basically what I was looking for in AI.

------
sunir
You write as if you are trapped in IT. You say you are burnt out. Perhaps the
feeling you are trapped is coming from inside you rather than the world?

Burn out comes from using willpower to force yourself to do work that you have
no hope will succeed.

The feeling of being trapped comes with that. The Fight Flight Freeze
response.

The feeling is inside you. You can fly to another industry but the feeling
will go with you and you will remain unsettled.

Because burn out is a physiological phenomenon, one that you feel in your your
body, focus on physical recovery. Sleep, go outside, reconnect in your
relationships, exercise. Get the adrenaline and blood pressure down.

Then it is worth doing other things to build back the feeling of hope. But use
that as the guide. Do I believe this will be fun? That I will succeed at this?
You need to retrain your sense of hope in your own efforts.

It takes time. A few months to 2 years perhaps. Forgive yourself daily. You
aren't the first or the last person to feel this way and there is nothing
wrong with how you feel. It was a way to stop you from continuing doing
something self-destructive. The primary lesson is to do things that are self-
constructive from now on. Things you want to do. Things you wake up to do.
Don't stop yourself from those things any more.

~~~
custos
"You can fly to another industry but the feeling will go with you and you will
remain unsettled." <\- Totally incorrect.

I took a break from software development due to burn out, got my CDL and drove
an 18 wheeler for a few months.

The experience was practically a relaxing (after training) paid vacation where
I could see the country, and made feel so much better.

I was even able to go back to software development afterwards with renewed
drive. So... no, the feeling won't follow you.

~~~
sunir
Agreed. As I wrote, you can and should change scenes but with the __intent
__to do something fun or where you feel successful. OP seemingly wants to
grind new skills the hard way but that is just more agony.

To regain a sense of __control __and __success __in ones life requires more
than following through on feelings of escapism.

------
dundercoder
Well... I hired a producer, wrote 10 songs, hired a director, filmed 3 music
videos and worked harder than I had at any software startup in my life
(platform/devops) trying to make it work. Serious long shot, but it's been a
ton of fun!

Edit: my last video won "Music Video of the Year" at the Oxford International
Film Festival. So here's hoping!

~~~
wrigby
You're being polite by not linking, and I appreciate that. However, it's truly
good and I think other people will want to give it a watch.

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G31_dEOvYuY](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G31_dEOvYuY)

~~~
wapz
How did you get the youtube video from his profile? I looked through and
couldn't find a way to correlate the two as we don't know what year he won.

~~~
wrigby
I just assumed it was this year, and then I noticed he linked to (presumably)
his SoundCloud account in another HN comment[1], which I used as (good enough)
confirmation that I had found the right video.

1:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12422365](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12422365)

~~~
PritiKumr
Good amount of research there. :D

------
jansho
I have a comp eng degree but was completely burnt out after graduation. I
jumped into digital learning instead; it's ideal for me as it's still "IT" but
combined with my other favourite areas, education, product and design. The
learning curve wasn't so bad, there are plenty of good WYSIWYG authoring tools
with only barebone knowledge of HTML/ CSS/ JS required - although you'll
quickly find that that's much less important than the skills to teach and to
have a good design eye, for example.

So now, most of my job is to assess training needs, design a programme
solution - along with its curriculum, script, storyboard etc - then develop
the actual eLearning, test-test-test then launch. So quite similar to a
software development cycle - except most often this is a one-man job and
shouldn't last more than a couple of months.

Initially I was naive enough to think hey, I got this, but there's a reason
why MOOCs generally have high drop-out rates. The bar for eLearning is
_extremely_ high. You also have to take account of other limitations, from
outdated IT systems to the sizeable number of computer illiterates/ Luddites
to the organisation's own conflict of whether the training should look 100%
corporate (aka boring) or creative (learners cry hurray!)

But I find that I enjoy navigating through them and finding the right balance.
I also learnt a massive amount about how to teach, what good designs mean and
how to listen to users. In terms of opportunities - well there's enough I
suppose, at least for me I can work on my edtech project - for children, cos
hey it's just more fun ;) - with a backup contract work to keep the money
going.

~~~
rsyngh
I just made an account here to reply to your account .Could you please
elaborate on how you got into digital learning/edtech or how can a fellow
software engineer get into digital learning/edtech?

~~~
jansho
Oh goodness, I'm glad someone found this intriguing, I think I came across as
a bit self-promotional before :o

It was mainly accidental that I got into digital learning. I was pretty
traumatised from my degree, even today I still feel irrationally reluctant to
code.

But I've always been passionate about design and education. I also wanted to
"self-heal" if you like, to repair myself as a person and as a learner. And
what better way than to learn how to learn and teach??

One of the best parts of my job is I can get away with being "dummy". I tell
my subject matter experts that it's helpful to assume this position, so I can
be empathic to all types of learners, but really I'm a slow learner myself
haha. And yes you do end up designing better eLearning! Being in Learning And
Development also gives a good overview of the whole organisation, as you need
to understand how it works and where the gaps are in order to tackle them with
training (or not.) I learnt a lot, and dare I say I am much more confident as
learner, teacher and professional.

Lately though I've been feeling that I have a debt to pay. I consider myself
lucky to "survive" depression, and to live in a good country with lots of
opportunities. So I am moving to my own edtech project focusing on literacy
for children, with lots of interactive eBooks :)) I do have a backup remote
gig though.

If you're really interested, google up "Instructional Design" and "eLearning"
just to get a flavour of the field. As I said, there are WYSIWYG tools but
increasingly organisations are moving towards mobile-friendly courses, which
is great news for developers as it means more coding opportunities. Have a
look at "Adapt", an open source authoring tool which requires a bit of HTML/
JavaScript knowledge. "Unity" is also increasingly being used ... and there's
a growing trend for VR learning.

Hope that's helpful, if not just email me via my profile.

~~~
Treegarden
Sorry if this comes off as harsh, but do you approach eLearning with this sort
of wishy washy that most people tend to have in this field(as far as I
observed), or do you know what you are doing, eg. the educational psychology
behind it, and basing decisions on empirical evidence?

"Many institutions move towards eLearning" \- the impression I got from this
topic is that its pretty much every time one of those "Ipad cases" \- spend
$$$ on Ipads even if they are useless, just to show how modern your
institution is. Almost every time I hear about this, its some news-article
over hyping eLearning that is so badly implemented that the teachers hate it.

If you know what you are doing (not the wishy washy way) then I would really
like to ask you some questions.

~~~
jansho
If I know what I'm doing? Hmm, I like to think that I _can_ by paying close
attention to the problem itself. Every organisation is unique, and though
their problem sounds general and well-defined, it usually isn't. So as part of
scoping, you need to dig further in order to gauge the actual problem - you
may even realise that it's a symptom of a deeper problem in which case
training isn't always the solution. This does mean that you have to immerse
yourself in the organisation to understand the culture, biases, IT system,
branding, language and so on - all this will also feed into your final design.
And build relationships; rarely what people tell you at first actually match
up with the real problem.

My rule is to start from first principles and work my way up as logically as I
can. This helps to cut through the bullshit - yep, I agree with you that there
is too much of it in L&D. However it's also useful to know core pedagogy
theories and the latest fads, because it will help you speak in their
language. Some of them are genuinely useful, but I find myself drawing mostly
from design and behaviour science.

Digitalisation is a serious strategy though. You will be surprised at how
dated some systems are in the biggest companies, and the amount of reluctance
to adapt in the workforce. The mistake most companies do is to _rush_ with
digitalising their training, when there does need to be a proper transition
sensitive to the workforce's needs and perceptions.

Although I've sung praises about eLearning here, personally I prefer blended
learning - but the best ones require skill in creating the complementary
digital component well.

------
rezendi
It's pretty non-traditional, but: in my spare time, evenings and weekends, I
wrote a couple of bad novels. This took a long time. Then I took time off
between contract jobs to write a good novel. Then I sold the novel, and got a
couple of subsequent book deals, enough to spend six years as a full-time
novelist, which was pretty great. Then I parlayed that into magazine
journalism.

I eventually went back into software -- writing is not great for one's bank
balance unless you hit it extremely big; my gross income is now more than
triple what it was during those years as a full-time writer -- but I'm still
an occasional journalist and even more occasional author, and those were an
excellent six years.

I think the tl;dr is to try to turn what you enjoy doing in your spare time
into your secondary profession.

~~~
ggambetta
This is very inspiring! I've written my first bad novel, planning the second,
although really loving my engineering job as well :)

------
scandox
The thing I regret not doing is sales. And I mean SALES. Selling plots of land
in a swamp. Selling GIs suits of armour on an aircraft carrier. Selling fake
Gucci jackets out of the boot of a car. I'm talking Glengarry Glen Ross shit
and worse. If I had a career timeout I think that's what I might do.

Bear with me here.

It's like there's two ways of looking at what life is really about. On the one
hand life is about stopping to smell the flowers, feel the sand in between
your toes, enjoy balmy evenings with friends and family. On the other hand
life is about a cruel and monstrous struggle for survival in which every
living organism is consuming or parasitising some other organism for its own
advantage.

Both these things are true: I feel like people who have the privilege of NOT
doing sales, don't see both sides on a regular basis. Don't understand where
their incomes really originate.

So I always felt like it's a world I know about, but haven't really
experienced. Like sometimes I love walking through an industrial estate at 6am
and feeling like this is really where things are happening.

~~~
sailfast
As someone who was in sales as a first job working with all kinds of
companies, small and Fortune 500, this is absolutely true. Unless you learn to
pick up a phone, learn to ask for what you want in an agreement, and learn
what it takes to communicate the value of a product effectively you'll have a
handicap in starting a company, but also fully understanding any company for
which you're working.

------
sidlls
When my family moved to the Bay Area we owned a home. Rather than sell, we
engaged a property manager to rent it out. We had a few years of excellent
income from that which essentially paid the PITI (principal, interest, taxes,
and insurance) on our FHA-financed home (including holding a "reserve" for
repairs, vacancy, etc.) plus a (very small) profit. It definitely lit a fire
in my belly to switch out. I find software development to be incredibly boring
and, worse, having a higher quotient of immature and unjustifiably arrogant
people than I find myself able to tolerate lately.

I haven't made the switch just yet, because I want a slightly larger bank
account before I draw down from it to finance a couple of purchases. I've also
basically self-taught for a real estate license. One doesn't need the license
to buy and sell real estate for oneself, but the knowledge is very handy and I
may get a license anyway just to be able to work with an agency for the
experience of it. Doing this sort of thing requires one to build skills that
translate to any industry (sales, "people skills", etc.).

~~~
colechristensen
Personally, I find going into real estate borderline immoral. Competing with
people who want to own homes raises prices and makes people spend less on more
interesting and intrinsically valuable pieces of the economy. There is some
place for it, but right now there is far far too much money and too many
people vying to get maximum profit out of a basic human need.

~~~
jondubois
It's not more immoral than any other sales job or being a lawyer, trader,
politician, tax accountant, banker, financier... 90% of white-collar jobs are
immoral. If you want to be moral, become a garbage collector, builder,
janitor, etc...

------
shahbaby
As someone who has worked those type of jobs for years, the grass is indeed
NOT greener on the other side.

Those jobs have a much lower barrier to entry, so in addition to being paid
less, employers can hire and fire much more easily.

Also don't fall for the "sales is such a great skill to have!" When was the
last time a salesperson convinced you to buy something?

What will you have to show for the years you're going to waste in these type
of jobs besides a few bullet points on your resume?

~~~
joshvm
B2B sales is probably a lot more compelling than B2C sales. Big difference in
mentality. Consumers don't typically value their time monetarily, whereas
businesses are (mostly) only concerned with how much money they'll save if
they buy your product.

And then you realise why people will pay $10k for software that saves them
even an hour a day. It pays for itself in under a year.

Having done it, I would never get a job in retail again. It's absolutely soul
destroying.

------
JoshMnem
There is a great job that you might be interested in that would be easy to
obtain as well as provide opportunities for travel, free accommodation, and
give you free time to work on programming, read, or whatever you want. You
could stay in BC or move anywhere in the world -- get a job at a hostel.

You don't need any special skills to get a job at a hostel. I think that it
would be much more beneficial for personal development than serving coffee or
flipping burgers. It's very good for interpersonal and intercultural
communication skills. Depending on which shift you work, you could still get
in a full day of coding on side projects on some days.

I worked in that industry and was even able to get a European work visa based
on it (along with the technical skills). Send me a message if the idea
interests you. (@joshhostels on Twitter)

------
tome_anir
I worked as a software developer for 3 years until RSI struck me. It took me
one year of rehab to be in a situation to live normal life.

Life decided for me that I can't be a programmmer anymore. I had an
engineering degree in Computer Engineering and it was hard for me to convince
myself that I can't type anymore. It just wasn't possible physically. So after
much furstration I decided to make a change. I went back to school to study.
This time I took up Statistics. Now I'm a PhD student in Biostatistics. Much
better in terms of job satisfaction and typing is less. The latter is
important for my RSI injury which never went away completely.

PS: in my master's I met all kinds of people from all kinds of background
studying statistics. It broke my bubble that I'm the only one who has made a
change.

~~~
oblio
Have you tried using a different mouse/keyboard or using one of those silicon
pads to support your wrist? You could also try to change your posture while
sitting.

~~~
tome_anir
I was awaiting that comment :). Short answer to your question: Yes, my desk
looks like I will to fly to Mars any moment. Long answer: I rather not type or
I will give myself more pain.

~~~
dvtv75
I doubt that more technology is the solution. What worked for me was to build
up strength in my wrists, hands, and forearms again, with free weights. (I'd
actually recommend dumbbells rather than barbells. If I were advising myself
22 years ago, I would tell myself to start really light, and don't work too
hard to begin with.) It took a lot of work, but I didn't cause the RSI to
flare up again, and within a few months I was able to type at full speed for
indefinite periods.

Something else I learned was to not overdo it.

So, that was almost a cure for me, but whether it'll work for you or not is an
entirely different thing, depending on what the root of the problem is. You
would probably also need to address posture and muscle tension issues, like I
do, and you just plain should not attempt any kind of serious rehab without a
good physiotherapist helping you.

~~~
tome_anir
I share your opinion completely.

------
cbanek
Maybe what you can do is bring your software development skills to a more
"jobby job"? You sound like someone who could easily be a one person back
office for a small company/local bank/corporate office, helping with tech,
custom software, etc. Might be a good way to utilize your skills, but in a
different culture.

I'm with you on the extreme pressure cooker that is tech jobs, and tech
recruiting. It's almost as if the dial is either 0 or 11.

~~~
brailsafe
This is along the lines of what I'm asking myself and what I attempted to
communicate in my question. To your second point, what I consider my most
successful role was being the "webmaster" for a medium sized retailer. A
sports retailer with a very foreign culture. Turns out, I do fairly well when
given lots of responsibility with little micromanagement. Doing that again is
not something I'd discount as a possibility, though so not something I've
thought to pursue again. Perhaps I'll consider this and broaden my IT related
search outside software dev. Could be worth a shot. It would certainly
contrast your last sentiment which I agree with wholeheartedly.

~~~
ljw1001
There is a huge amount of research that shows that broad responsibilities
(without micro-management) are correlated with high motivation. See the
classic paper "One more time, How do you motivate employees" for a starting
point.

So much in dev and elsewhere depends on the specifics of the organization
structure and who your manager is.

Good luck.

------
lj3
Have you ever tried sales? It should be fairly easy to get a sales job at any
retail store near where you live. Spend a year or two getting good at it, then
get hired as a technical sales engineer. Sales is a versatile skill and
somebody with both sales chops and programming skills is hard to come by.

~~~
saosebastiao
I'd add that sales is quite possibly the most universal of skills. You can
move _anywhere_ in the world and get a well paying job if you have sales
experience. Well, maybe not North Korea, but you get the drift.

~~~
iamacynic
well, north korea still has to sell all that coal it pulls out of the ground
using slave labor.

~~~
arvinjoar
This interests me, who would I contact to sell that slave coal? Do they use
external recruiters? Any pointers would be appreciated

------
_pmf_
> very time intensive interviews with very few compelling companies worth the
> effort

You will probably think this is partonizing, but anyway: I don't really get
how working for a non-IT company that hurts your body and soul is better than
working at a non-hip IT company that only hurts your soul. I can guarantee you
that you'll feel worse at "Starbucks, McDonalds, retail" than you have ever
felt in your IT job. A vocational job or maybe construction would be more
suitable in doing something for your well-being, but not the kind of customer
facing jobs you describe.

I dislike the interview circus, too, but there are lots of small worthwhile
companies that don't require you to jump through hoops and waste your time
with interview marathons.

~~~
brailsafe
Construction does also fall into this category. Simply slipped my mind when
writing the question. I haven't found that smaller "hip" IT companies hurt my
soul, but everyone's experience may vary. Body yes, but I have a fairly high
tolerance for it.

------
ingmarheinrich
It's a bit similar to what I'm thinking about right now. I started my career
close to 20 years ago, coding dynamic web pages (yes, I worked with php3), and
unintentionally broadened my skillset into something like a CTO skillset for
specific environments - I never was a really great coder, so I'm not suited
for the lead-developer kind of role in an early phase startup.

Now I'm losing more and more interest in "core tech". While I find
infrastructure, performance and scaling still kinda interesting on a rather
abstract level, I find it more and more enjoyable to work with "people &
processes", so: How do people collaborate within an IT department, how does IT
collaborate with its stakeholders, how are the roles & responsibilities
structured, where are the frustrations, what can be improved, how do we scale
the team.

I've been doing this as a freelancer for almost three years now, and I had
just two large-ish projects (about 6 months each). Problem is that both
projects were started because management thought the problems they were facing
were "the IT's fault", so I was hired as an interim CTO to "fix the IT".
Management had the impression that I would look at the code and improve it,
and then everything would be fine. However in both projects I discovered there
were various severe dysfunctions that didn't really have anything to do with
what the IT produced.

So staying within the jurisdiction of IT seems reasonable, but I'm also
thinking about leaving it completely to become a general "organisational
coach". But at the end of the day, I have no idea what to do, since right now
it's hard to find clients, since my communication is rather incoherent, and
people don't really understand what I have to offer. As soon as I say that I
won't even _read_ code, they think I'm completely useless.

~~~
le-mark
> However in both projects I discovered there were various severe dysfunctions
> that didn't really have anything to do with what the IT produced.

This is very common and it's not funny, it's tragic. IME the problem always
comes down to personalities in upper management. They're incompetent, and give
rise to incompetent teams.

I once worked with an old mainframe programmer who had re-created himself to
be a process evangalist by going off and getting a ph.d from some no name
univerisity. When I worked with him he was hired as a senior business analyst.
I was very intrigued by how he perceived his role and value add. He used to
say his job was to get the right people in meetings to talk to each other, and
they would make the decisions. And that's all he did, organize meetings, for
the full year he worked there.

In the end he was very adamant about not taking on any other responsiblities
and was fired. Luckily, the company was smallish and wised up. Looking at his
linkedin, you see a similar pattern, 6-12 month gigs all over town. Maybe
he'll land in a suitably Big Dumb Corp someday. My take away was, for that
type of role, you really need to DO something. Banal, I know.

~~~
ingmarheinrich
First of all, getting people together to talk is not doing nothing. It's
getting people together and talk. There are companies/departments where people
just don't talk to each other anymore, or not about the right things, because
many things are so bogged down that people don't bring them up anymore.

Ok, now while I'm typing I see what you might mean: Of course in a management
role you actually have to actively "facilitate": You have to challenge things
that seem to be stuck, you have to offer solutions by comparing your
experience with the situation at hand. Some kind of an "organisational coach
with focus on IT teams". But this wouldn't be a permanent position but a
freelance one, and 6 months seems to be a reasonable time for an IT team (and
its stakeholders!) to resolve a lot of issues and to be able to flourish on
their own.

Having the team decide on architectural matters isn't bad management per se in
my opinion. At least having most of the ideas - of course management is
responsible for the decisions, but if the ideas come from the team, the
developers usually feel way more appreciated, and the decisions are supported
way better than those that "come from above". But also, management has to
facilitate: Have the team explain why they want to do things a certain way,
have them lay out alternatives, and challenge their ideas with your
experience.

That's just my understanding of an IT manager: You're not a manager because
you were the best developer, and so you were promoted - changing into a
management role is NOT a promotion, it's taking a different career path, doing
a different job. So to my mind an IT manager should not be a lead architect
who has all the great ideas, and the team works them off. He's a Servant
Leader who helps the team to be the best team they can be.

------
microwavecamera
Unless your just done with tech, don't give up! Picking up other work happens.
I've done it plenty of times and still do it but I know what I can do. Start a
side project, start a side business, just don't let the job situation deter
you. I'm oldish, at least in tech years. After doing the consulting thing for
some time I haven't had much in terms of full-time tech jobs coming my way and
switched modes to doing something on my own. I still do odd jobs in the
meantime but that doesn't stop me. You got skills, don't forget. ;)

------
latte
I was a 4th-year student in a maths / CS programme in Eastern Europe and had a
part-time job as a web developer. Over time, I got the impression that being a
dev is a low-prestige job with very slim chances of moving into any position
of power. So I abandoned programming entirely, enrolled in a masters' program
in economics and in 3 years got a job in M&A advisory at an investment bank.

Getting a finance job was not easy (two full recruitment seasons, 20+ failed
interviews - even though I graduated from the top bachelor and master
programmes in the country and the financial market was booming those years),
mostly due to my lack of people skills. The people's mindset and mode of
communication in business are much different from what I was used to in IT and
academia. It cost me a lot of time and mental effort to adapt.

Note that I was only 20 years old back then when I started doing my master's
in economics but there were much older people around who also succeeded in
getting into investment banking, management consulting or other business-like
careers of their choice.

Now, after 8 years in finance, I became fed up with it, left the job and am
currently trying to break into the IT/startup sector as a CTO/co-founder.

~~~
taway_1212
> I got the impression that being a dev is a low-prestige job with very slim
> chances of moving into any position of power.

It used to be like that in EE (Poland) in the first decade of 2000. Now, with
remote jobs paying $10k+ per month and low costs of living, who cares about
power? Unless you genuinely want to be "important" and not just well paid.

~~~
biztos
Seriously, $10K/mo for remote engineers in Poland?

If so then hooray for Poland, but most engineers in Germany make less than
that.

~~~
pound
It's not about Poland, it's about remote (as in not a Polish employer).

------
ryan-allen
When I was young and I had no degree and almost no experience, I made a few
web projects and put them together in a portfolio. I showed the beginning-to-
end methods I used (pencil sketches and all) to complete the projects on my
own. It took a few months but I landed a job with a small company (they cited
the portfolio as the main reason they got me in to interview) and have been
employed ever since.

Later as a manager who was hiring, the biggest problem I had with hiring
juniors was I couldn't easily tell one between another, and even with a degree
from a decent University, I was unable to figure out if a) they could solve
problems or b) if they could even code at all (surprisingly, many graduates
cannot, and I don't have time or inclination to train them).

On the other side of the fence, candidates that put effort into portfolios
like the one I described, even for a single project, made it very easy to
decide if they were a worthwhile bet because they had already answered my
questions with their portfolio piece: that they can solve a problem and that
they can actually code.

Even interview phases, I've had seniors whom have aced the interviews and
turned out completely rubbish. If only I was able to determine their aptitude
from a real project before I've even called them...

Another angle is to find a company that need something built but are not a
'tech company'. Often these, assuming you can pull of the work they need, are
less about the 'passing the tech interview' and more 'solving the problems'
the small business is having. I started out doing this also (I worked in ad
agencies making bespoke things as their only programmer).

There are avenues outside of 'tech companies' if you can do the work, if you
love making stuff, don't give up on it yet!

------
losteverything
Answer: cell phone displaced my career/job

Taking a basic job like McD etc will give you new skills.

There will be plenty of upward mobility in service and retail if you show
brains and hard work. You will stand out.

For me, going from office/ professional to service yielded these positives:

Working with young people. Youth keeps me feeling young. Plus i never realized
that over50% of my old office environment was filled with adults that failed
at marriage. Youth have everything in front of them and bring a great load of
fun to work beside.

Feeling accomplished. Its easy to see how you help others in a service job. (i
worked on the same system for years and never felt the way i do interacting
with human customers.

My time after work. If im not on the clock the time is mine.

If you don't make the money you don't spend the money. It was difficult to see
how I could have taken a 60% pay cut before i left the golden handcuffs job,
but it was much easier than I fretted over.

But beware! Just like most McD employees could not get a job in tech the
reverse is more than true. It is just not as obvious

------
rbritton
What about doing the physical end of IT/development? Prior to actually getting
my first job on the software side of things I did the low voltage wiring for
networks and related systems in commercial construction. I have installed
several million linear feet of Cat5e, Cat6, RG-11, RG-6, and so on. It's
definitely a differerent experience than most have.

------
whyenot
I went back to school and got a doctorate in botany. Now I am a staff
scientist at a large state university. Working in tech gave me a lot of
financial success, but it wasn't something I was passionate about.

~~~
mehrzad
That's wonderful. I'm having trouble finding entry-level science internships
as an undergrad because all my past experience has been in tech so I can to
what interests me more.

~~~
jmcgough
That would be a benefit to your CV for a number of positions. Entry-level
undergrad science internships tend to be _extremely_ competitive, I was never
able to land one. One of the best things you can do is, assuming you're at a
university and not a college, become a research assistant at one of the labs
on your campus. There's typically no pay, but you can often get credits, and
it can sometimes lead to a publication.

------
akulbe
Sell. Sell. Sell.

If you can crack the sales mystery and get good at it, there's nothing you
can't have. Good sales folk make $$$$$$$$$$.

~~~
teddyh
“It takes brass balls to sell real estate.”

------
lightedman
Got sick of the daily hack, went to an estate sale, found a bunch of rocks and
tools that would let me work said rocks, and after a bit of trial, error, and
about seven proper youtube videos, here I am.

Made and sold this yesterday -
[http://i.imgur.com/byR2660.png](http://i.imgur.com/byR2660.png)

~~~
brailsafe
This is cool. Do you have a youtube channel or were you watching them to
learn?

------
learc83
You can do front end developer contract gigs on one of the freelancer sites.
You won't make a ton but you can make 2 or 3 times minimum wage (based on
Vancouver minimum wage) without trying very hard. You can make a good bit more
than that if you get good at contracting. Plus contracting lets you build
skills you won't get working as an employee.

Work 4 months out of the year full time, or 10-15 hours a week year round and
you'll make as much as you would working at McDonald's. Spend the rest of your
time learning whatever you want.

~~~
BigJono
What kind of places do you look to find this kind of stuff? I'm based in
Melbourne, so I'm not sure how different it is, but last time I looked into it
the work on offer seemed overwhelmingly based around inexperienced devs
working on shoddy PHP/Wordpress sites for far below minimum wage.

~~~
learc83
Upwork and various sites like it have plenty of people making way above
minimum wage. You have to spend some time sorting through the nonsense, but
it's there.

If you're in North America, speak fluent English, and you can actually
program, steady jobs in the $20-$30 an hour range are easy to find. (note that
if you're a decent developer living in North America, I wouldn't advise
working for those rates unless you have a specific reason to, e.g., you want
easy jobs that are easy to find or you really need money now.

Living in Melbourne it might be a bit harder because of the time zone
difference you lose a bit of the advantage North American developers have over
eastern Europe, India, and other low cost of living countries.

I still think it's probably doable.

There are jobs on those sites paying decent developer wages as well, but those
are harder to come by. I did a bit of work on Upwork and other sites before I
started finding work through the Hacker News find a freelancer and upped my
rates to $100 an hour.

~~~
wapz
Do you have any experience doing this? I've done lots of work in Unity and
Android/iOS but mostly making games (70-75%). I looked at upwork and all the
posts for game-related material looked _terrible_. I prefer to _not_ make
games but that's what I'm best at right now. Would it still be easy to get
into? Or do you recommend getting good at front end, fullstack, or anything
else? I do like to learn so that won't be a problem.

~~~
learc83
I can't imagine that upwork is any good for game programming. You're better of
finding full-stack and front-end jobs.

Like I said though, I don't actually encourage anyone to work for $20-$30/hour
unless they're living in a low cost of living country or have some other
compelling reason.

You can find people willing to pay $50+/hour on upwork (or at least you could
the last time I looked a year or two ago), but you'll have to spend a lot of
time searching.

------
controversy187
I'm sort of doing this now. I'm a full-time software engineer, and I have a
passion for tea as well. I've been reading a TON about small business,
entrepreneurship, etc. My wife and I are in the processes of launching a side-
hustle online tea company, and documenting the whole process on our YouTube
channel. It may not be a full-time gig, but we want to grow it as far as we
can. So, in short, we're sticking with the safe jobs we know and leveraging
our free time to build something we love.

~~~
biztos
FWIW there are some people doing small- to medium-sized businesses in Very
Serious Tea here in Europe and while it doesn't seem to be Republic of Tea 2.0
money-wise they do seem to really enjoy it.

Example:

[https://zhaozhoutea.com](https://zhaozhoutea.com)

------
monster_group
Be very careful about such a career transition. Grass always seems greener on
the other side. You don't realize what you have until you lose it. Sure there
are job related problems in IT but they are nothing compared to other other
industry jobs especially the ones that pay minimum wage. Most minimum wage
jobs are physically demanding and will drain the hell out of you. Any job that
requires dealing with general public is very taxing and offers virtually no
flexibility in work hours. You will be more burnt out than in IT. I suggest
you take up hobbies in free time (sports, musical instrument etc). Do things
that you like and then you will not feel burnt out but you would enjoy the
hobbies as well as work. You will also realize that work is not everything. If
you view work as something that enables you to do other things in free time
you wouldn't mind it so much. And IT is particularly good at that - good
salaries, good working conditions, reasonable work hours. Do not underestimate
what you have.

------
aianus
Maybe teach English in Asia or drive an Uber? Or go to trade school to become
an electrician or mechanic?

Those are the escape routes I daydream about when I'm unhappy at work, anyways
:)

~~~
mikekchar
Teaching is a difficult job, but I really enjoyed it. If you are from an
English speaking country, have a university degree and are under 40 then the
JET programme (Japan Teaching Exchange) is a pretty soft landing if you get
in. Reputable government job, visa sorted out, travel expenses sorted out,
accommodation sorted out and higher than normal wages (which... is not saying
much -- it's still pretty low). The problem is that it takes a good year from
applying to going and in some countries the competition is fairly stiff.
Still, I recommend it. I intended to go for 1 year, but stayed for 5 (maximum
length of the contract). I never really intended to get out of the software
industry but I would happily have continued teaching English if circumstances
hadn't led me back to high tech. I still entertain notions of teaching
again...

~~~
wapz
Oh man the JET program is amazing compared to the other teaching jobs in
Japan. I was never part of the program but considering what they do for you
and the market rate, the pay is still pretty good. Can I ask how you got back
into tech afterwards? I taught for a few years in Japan and it was quite hard
to land my first programming job after (I'm still in Japan).

~~~
mikekchar
I went to the UK :-). The real story is that I went to Japan only thinking of
staying for 1 year. After a couple of months, I knew I was going to stay
forever. At that point I quite happily made the decision to give up writing
software professionally, do something else and write free software in my spare
time. After 5 years, I was actually planning on starting a brewery (I've been
a homebrewer since I was 18), but I got married and my wife wanted to learn
English (she's Japanese). We ended up going to the UK since I can get a visa
to work there. I needed to do something to pay the bills, so I tried to get a
software job.

London is chock-a-block with programming jobs. There are also meetups pretty
much every day of the week (often with free beer and pizza). I basically went
to as many meetups as I could and I also invested in going to some conferences
in areas I was interested in (another good way to meet people). I screwed up
my first interview very badly and I'm sure that the people involved are
convinced I can't program at all :-). But in the end I got lots of interviews
and was able to land a job in about a month (though I started a month later).

Of course the biggest question people had was, "Can you still program?" I'd
been out for 5 years. Luckily I had been working on a side project in Ruby for
that time period. The code was pretty awful (I was experimenting with a few
different ideas) and definitely not idiomatic Ruby, but it helped a lot (i.e.
it got me a foot in the door). I also needed to create a narrative for my
career where teaching English for 5 years made sense. Of course, people don't
plan out their lives like that in reality, but it helps people understand that
there is some continuity -- you aren't just bumbling around from job to job.
In the end, I had to adjust my salary expectations (because London pay is
quite low compared to similarly expensive cities in North America and also
because my employer was legitimately taking a risk in hiring me). But I've
always been more interested in doing interesting work than receiving a large
paycheck, so I had no problem with that. If you do good work and are
successful, your employer should bump you up the next year. If they don't, you
can very reasonably leverage your "I am working in the industry now" status to
find a higher paying job.

I'm currently back in Japan, working remotely on contract for that same
company. Being married to a Japanese national made it very easy to return.
When I was looking for work before I left Japan, I found that recruiters and
what-not wouldn't touch me. I suspect that they thought (reasonably) that I
didn't have access to a visa. As soon as I touched down in the UK, they were
all over me.

I couldn't quite tell if you are working in high tech now or not, but if you
are looking, that's my advice (for work outside of Japan) -- work on your
portfolio, etc while you are in Japan. Find a busy centre with lots of jobs
and an active meetup scene and go there to meet people. Going to the UK
_still_ cost me an obscene amount of money, but I'd been very careful about
saving while on JET, so it was fine. If you are short on cash, I'd say try to
save up -- having enough money to scrape by for 6-8 months in the centre you
pick will really help you (and you can live on beer and pizza in the mean time
:-) ).

I can't give you any advice on working in Japan, since I haven't tried to get
a job here. However, probably the same advice will work. Likely it means
working in Tokyo or Osaka, though. Remote work seems to be picking up steam
these days, but it's pretty hard from Japan. The timezone is basically the
worst. I put in a lot of days where I work to midnight or later so that I can
overlap with London. If you were trying to overlap with the west coast US, it
would be baker's hours (starting at 3-4 am) _and_ you are a day ahead (so
probably you are best working from Tuesday to Saturday). For me, that's by far
the hardest part. My current employer is quite liberal about what hours I
work, but I find that I'm most effective if I overlap as much as possible, so
that's what I generally try to do (taking a week here and there to work
Japanese hours to recover).

~~~
wapz
Thanks for the long write-up. I'm actually employed in Japan now but it was
quite some work to get a position. I have a very long commute so I'd be much
happier with either a remote position or one closer to my home but haven't had
any luck (I live in the 'country-side' and work downtown for a fun 2 hour
commute each way). I'm from the SF bay area so I'm thinking of looking at
remote jobs from the states but they seem hard to land and cut-throat.

~~~
mikekchar
If you have time, give me a shout (my contact details are on my account page).
I'd to chat about what you are doing.

------
bradgnar
Just go do it. I've worked all of those "jobby jobs" on the way to becoming a
software engineer. Maybe just get a less aggressive front end developer job?
The difference between whats expected of you at different places or different
roles is amazing.

~~~
brailsafe
The expectations do differ that is absolutely true. The question was more
about how to take the experience that I obtained first, and work in reverse to
form a body of experience that would work on a resume for a "jobby job"
company. More about ideas and how than if I should.

------
krustchinsky
Aviation.

I'm leaving my cushy software developer gig at a well known defense contractor
to become an Army Aviator. It's not so much that I'm tired or bored, but that
I'm looking for a new challenge.

------
thenipper
The biggest obstacle you'll face is that depending on how you present yourself
a savvy manager will assume that you'll get a "better" job as soon as you can
and leave them high and dry.

Besides that the best advice i think is that getting a "blue collar" job is no
different then getting most others. It's about who you know and how much shit
you're willing to eat. I've done ever from hanging drywall to writing R code.
If you're personable and willing to roll up your sleeeves you can usually get
something.

~~~
bradleyjg
I suggest addressing the leaving for a better job issue head on. One possible
tactic is something like "Yes, I probably won't be around forever. But as long
as I'm working for you, I'll show up when I'm scheduled to work, on time,
sober, and ready to go. I have a car in good conditions / live a ten minute
bike ride away / am on the X bus line. When I leave, I'll give you two weeks
notice so you have time to pull me off the schedule."

~~~
brailsafe
I like this idea. It would be accurate to say I'd leave once something more
relevant comes along (probably) and I think this is an upfront way to handle
that concern.

------
pmoriarty
Have you considered going back to school to get a degree in something else
that could land you a better job?

~~~
Scramblejams
+1 to this. I got bored with IT/software, went back to school, got an
aerospace engineering degree, had a very satisfying 4+ years in it, then a
software job came my way that was too good to turn down. Quite a commitment of
time and money but for me it was all very much worth it.

~~~
molsongolden
Did you work part-time while going back?

~~~
Scramblejams
Yes, I did, which helped with expenses. Funny thing is that once I got into
the industry, I was the only engineer in my office who was an experienced
programmer, so I ended up writing a decent amount of code for the job. It was
a very satisfying way to rigorously learn methods of structural analysis, so I
didn't feel like I was back to square one. And in the interviews for my
subsequent jump back to the software business, when I got some questions about
whether I felt rusty (they assumed I hadn't been writing software during
school and aerospace), I could truthfully say that I'd programmed frequently
enough that I wasn't out of practice.

This brings up a larger point I should have called out earlier: _An
experienced dev in a non-software field has a superpower_. I'm no genius but
because of my background, I was able to write software that made our
engineering team more competitive, and I was able to negotiate good raises as
a result. Everybody won.

------
dfbc
I'm in Vancouver as well. The transition to minimum wage from developer wage
has been pretty difficult for me as I dove into my startup. It's far too
expensive here to live on $11/hr without dealing a big shock to your
lifestyle. Despite that, it's been incredibly fulfilling, in part because I've
diversified my day to day activities into adjacent fields like marketing and
sales (which many seem to suggest exploring, I agree).

Want to meet me downtown this afternoon for coffee/patio beer? If you want to
explore adjacent fields and not unrelated fields, I've got tons of pending
projects in marketing, sales, community building, even physical installation
of smart home equipment. Maybe you could find a way to shape a project into
something that helps you explore a new skill set. If not, it's always nice to
chat to someone else questioning their life decisions. Let me know! (email in
bio). I'll be available after 3PM today.

------
bsvalley
How did you become a frontend developer? Did you get a CS degree, did an
internship, graduated then landed your 1st job?

Well, if that's the case then this is the answer to your question. How do you
switch fields? Forget about CS, it doesn't make you any better regarding other
fields. You have to start from scratch there is no shortcut unless you have an
amazing network.

So to answer your question, pick up a new field then re-apply the exact same
process. Go to school or train for another field. Get an internship then land
your 1st job. The main difference is that you should pick something you do
outside of work. Don't think about your career, income, etc. pick something
you'd be wiling to do for free. If you happen to make money out of it, you'll
never burn out.

------
padraic7a
Would you think about working in libraries?

The developer background would be a plus if you wanted to use it in the
future* but in the meantime you could apply for front desk type roles. You
would develop people skills and it can be a decent paying lifelong career -
which retail / food service often isn't.

I don't know what the employment opportunities are like in Canada but you
could start by looking here: [https://ca.indeed.com/Library-Assistant-jobs-in-
Vancouver,-B...](https://ca.indeed.com/Library-Assistant-jobs-in-
Vancouver,-BC)

* see [https://jobs.code4lib.org/](https://jobs.code4lib.org/)

------
pier25
Why not get a less demanding front end position?

Even working half time you will make more than at McDonalds.

------
themodelplumber
My webdev business has financed a side business in life coaching. Right now
it's by referral only and I'm taking it slow, but it's been a nice source of
extra income and variety, one where I know I'm making a very direct
contribution to others' lives. I have had to pay for multiple certifications
and the associated education, and this actually convinced me to pursue web
development certification, ongoing education, and memberships in professional
societies.

------
ensiferum
Have you considered taking some time off, like a sabbatical and going to
travel and working some odd jobs?

I did that 3 times total and had plenty of odd jobs.

    
    
      - fruit picking
      - removals
      - gardener
      - handy man
      - dive master
    

Out of those only dive mastering was something that considered taking further
and becoming an instructor. I was half serious about it but in the end just
didn't go for it.

If I was you I'd take some time off and think about the next direction. Good
luck.

------
dpcan
I still have my web development / programming business too in order support
Clients who depend on me, but I opened an Escape Room business about 8 months
ago.

Loving life again.

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stefek99
Seems like you are time rich - travel?

If money is an issue - set a goal (say $2000) and work until you reach it.

Building simple website / setting up WordPress / educating people on value of
online presence - not very scalable but good enough to get you going...

(I believe you have a techie label among your friends and family)

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id122015
Burnt out + HR + oversaturated market + 5 in 1 requirements:

I didnt even bother to move into IT. In so many years I tried just as many
different jobs. What doesnt kill you makes you stronger.

You will be fine. Start a trade: plumbing, welding, wood work. Or become a
photo model if you are lazy.

------
taway_1212
In this thread: lots of stories, but no one (so far) permanently moving out of
coding .

~~~
mdlap
There's one right above you:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14390879](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14390879)

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juliansamarjiev
I'm currently working as a programmer and building a side business in the
apparel industry. I didn't suspect how much my technological background would
be an advantage, when creating an apparel brand in 2017.

~~~
acdanger
Can you share some more details about your apparel business? I've thought
about starting a small side business in the fashion industry, but I've been
stymied by the lack of informational resources. I don't live in NYC or LA, so
I don't have the option of dropping in on factory or anything like that.

~~~
pcunite
See here:

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14352131](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14352131)

~~~
juliansamarjiev
Exactly, thank you for that one :)

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methodin
Have you considered other areas in tech like Project Management, where
technical skills are an added-benefit?

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lushn
With difficulty, but got there in the end.

My education and first seven or so years of working life were all in IT, and
in particular in software development related fields.

However as the internet was starting to really take off (1997 or around that
time) I got interested in internet marketing. I think the idea of making a
good living from home really appealed, and everyone seemed to be making money
online, so why not me!

So while keeping my job, I studied online marketing in the evenings. In
particular, I found the mental transition from IT to marketing quite
difficult.

It's a huge subject, and a completely different way of thinking about things.
I think you can often see that in comments here, when people focus more on the
technical aspects of a marketing challenge/problem, rather than the marketing
and sales aspect that actually generates the business growth.

(For example - if you're getting leads from Facebook at a cost that makes
sense to you, and you're converting those leads into valuable clients,
obsessing over click fraud is a waste of time and energy. IMO. Focusing on
optimising your marketing, rather than the technical challenge of trying to
track down click bots, is a far more productive use of your time, and your
business will thank you for it.)

There's a lot more information available on marketing now of course, and
there's a lot of overlap between the marketing and technical aspects (AdTech
for example). But it's still two very different ways of thinking about things,
and if you're too technology or data driven in marketing you can often miss
the wood for the trees, and you may be ignoring people's "feelings" as
abstract as that sounds, and feelings are what actually drive sales. So taking
a step back from the data, and really understanding your market and how they
make buying decisions, can be hugely beneficial.

So the transition took a long time, and after a few years (a lot of dabbling,
only really getting serious the last year or two) I made the move into online
marketing full time (running my own sites...etc.) and slowly over time my
income grew. Then moved into consulting with clients, and then into starting
and running an agency.

Now I have found having a technical background has been very helpful in many
aspects of online marketing, but now my attention is fully focused on
marketing and my business, and if a technical challenge would require a
significant investment of my time, it generally makes the most sense to my
business to outsource that. So being specialised and focused on business
results, rather than trying to be good at everything.

So to answer your question - yes, I made the transition. It took a long time,
and a new way of thinking. But it certainly paid off.

------
shmooth
I think the ESL/teaching English abroad thing is always an option.

Being relatively young is def a good thing, imo. Olds are not so attractive to
employers, career-switching or not.

i had the chance to do project management after a long time being a
dev/whatever, and it was actually really cool. also did some product mgmt and
that was cool too. there are often companies looking for 'junior' folks with
that stuff -- the main skills needed are tech + 'interested' \+ young (can
also be read as: not jaded yet)/cheap.

my advice to all my friends and people i care about is...get out now. that is,
get out of tech, get out of wage slavery, get out of anything that allows you
to be owned or is about to be automated (everything) -- get into rent-seeking
and other horrible stuff b/c that's the way to survive and thrive,
unfortunately.

or, move to a less insane country, like somewhere in Scandinavia maybe.

good luck!

~~~
eequah9L
Regarding the ESL, I guess it depends on where. FWIW I hear[0] that in Czechia
there are so many foreigners whose only significant skill relative to locals
is that they are native speakers, that the native English on its own is not
enough anymore. The language schools now demand (and have for some time) an
in-depth grammar knowledge and possibly relevant education as well. I would
expect it to be the same in other Central/Western European countries.

[0] An online account of an ESL teacher, confirmed by two others in person.

(EDIT: grammar.)

~~~
lj3
Would an MFA in Writing qualify? Asking for a friend... :D

------
zepolen
This comment has been removed thanks to aerovistae's toxic comment.

~~~
aerovistae
The phrasing here leaves something to be desired, if not the intention.

