
Trying out the Pinebook Pro – a $200 ARM Laptop - JeremyMorgan
https://www.jeremymorgan.com/blog/linux/pine64-pro-laptop-review/
======
phs
My pbp arrived a few days ago. The stock image it ships with seemed a little
laggy, probably due to aggressive cpu throttling for power. Since I'm
interested in encrypted disks I knew I would be installing a new OS from the
get-go.

Desiring LUKS basically rules out image-based distribution, so to find a
compatible installer this [0] page was useful. I opted for straight Debian
(bullseye). This amounts to a script wrapping debootstrap that adds in the
local firmware and kernel patches. I was required to use a sufficiently fast
and large microSD card (16 GB+). As reported on [1] and in the dedicated
thread [2] there are a few small issues:

* firefox does indeed crash in the way described, though I expect this will resolve itself after an upstream update

* The brightness up/down keys do not work, though they do in the base image

* I've encountered issues with the wifi getting wedged after resuming from sleep.

Still, on the whole it seems snappier than the base image, and the track pad
latencies issues I noticed there don't seem to manifest here.

[0]:
[https://wiki.pine64.org/index.php/Pinebook_Pro_Software_Rele...](https://wiki.pine64.org/index.php/Pinebook_Pro_Software_Release#Linux_Installer_Releases)
[1]:
[https://wiki.pine64.org/index.php/Pinebook_Pro_Debian_Instal...](https://wiki.pine64.org/index.php/Pinebook_Pro_Debian_Installer)
[2]:
[https://forum.pine64.org/showthread.php?tid=8487](https://forum.pine64.org/showthread.php?tid=8487)

edit: formatting.

~~~
herogreen
Regarding the trackpad latency, have you seen that there is an update for it ?
[https://forum.pine64.org/announcements.php?aid=23](https://forum.pine64.org/announcements.php?aid=23)
while it is more about the mouse moving while you are typing, it may help in
your case.

------
smacktoward
Seeing all that empty internal space makes me wonder if they couldn't increase
the device's appeal by fitting it with a bigger battery. 8-10 hours of charge
time is good, but a $200 laptop that could go for (say) 20 or 30 hours on a
charge would really turn heads.

I suppose it's possible that would require some kind of custom battery, and
this is just the most appropriate battery for this enclosure they could get
off-the-shelf, though.

~~~
jolmg
It's an 10,000 mAh battery, though. That's huge, isn't it? I don't know any
other laptop that has a battery that big. Looking online, Macbooks seem to
have around 6,000 mAh.

~~~
kube-system
You'd want to compare watt-hours for an equal comparison of energy for
batteries of different voltages.

38Wh is fairly small for a laptop battery.

~~~
AgloeDreams
I like how we all commented at the same time. poor OP...

~~~
johnchristopher
Happens often. What's the etiquette ? Answer to each replies ? One single
reply that address everyone's point(s) ?

------
StillBored
The really nice thing is that the RK3399, while an old and not particularly
fast ARM, has almost entirely open documentation. A bit of googling should
land both parts of the TRM, which covers every bit of the SOC's registers and
devices minus the Mali.

The follow-on RK3588 announced last year with 4x A76's (and 4x A55s) in 8nm
should completely crush the RK3399 performance wise. If it comes with open
documentation too, it could be a killer hacker chip this year.

(just to add to that) The RK3399 has 2x A72's with a peak frequency of 2Ghz
and 4 A53's. The RPi's 4x A72s easily run at 2Ghz as well, given a heatsink.
For most workloads the much faster A72s are a big advantage over the A53s.

~~~
sneak
Does it use any proprietary blobs to boot? I have yet to see a GPU without
them, and you said "almost", so I assume the answer is yes?

~~~
StillBored
I don't think there are any binary blobs in the normal atf+uboot+kernel boot
path. The display will run without the mali, so. AFAIK it can be run entirely
open source. There could be some additional hidden burned in place firmware to
handle the early SPI/etc boot flow, but they actually document the cortex M0
mgmt processor as well. So that puts them ahead of basically everyone.

Not all the documentation is "good" the DDR controller registers are in the
docs AFAIK, but lack a theory of operation section.

OTOH, there is example code in TFA for that,
[https://git.trustedfirmware.org/TF-A/trusted-
firmware-a.git/...](https://git.trustedfirmware.org/TF-A/trusted-
firmware-a.git/tree/plat/rockchip/rk3399/drivers/dram/dfs.c)

So, really as far as I know this is literally the most open A72 platform out
there when it comes to docs you can get via google. The MALI being the
problem, which means that one could consider one of the reverse engineered QC
chips or the rpi better understood (because of the Adreno or vp9 efforts) but
even then the documentation quality is worse.

~~~
zozbot234
If there are no blobs in the "normal" path, why isn't this device supported by
mainline Debian without special patches? Is this code making its way into
kernel/bootloader upstream so that distros can pick it up?

------
tbyehl
> I eagerly await the day Visual Studio Code is available for ARM.

There are community builds for ARM.

[https://code.headmelted.com/](https://code.headmelted.com/)

[https://github.com/VSCodium/vscodium](https://github.com/VSCodium/vscodium)

------
lanewinfield
An "annoying touchpad" is likely a dealbreaker for me. It's the holy grail for
Linux to me and I feel like it's never been solved by anybody but Apple (w/o
Linux).

That being said, I could exist in the command line most of the time...

~~~
jolmg
I wish the author expanded on what "annoying" meant. Is it not responsive, too
big, too small, jerky, etc?

~~~
idle_zealot
I have one of these laptops. I would guess that he's talking about the same
issue that I would describe as an "annoying touchpad" on my unit. The issue is
a tad difficult to describe, but it feels like the trackpad is always a little
delayed. I don't notice it when strating to move the cursor, but when ending a
movement the cursor will consistently slowly slide a bit further in the
direction it was being moved. This happens even for small movements, making
fine adjustments a real pain. My trackpad also won't depress anywhere near its
top-right corner, to the point where it only comfortably depresses at the
bottom-left. I want to like this machine, but the issues are bad enough that
I've committed to a keyboard-only setup software-wise.

~~~
ptx
There was a firmware update[1] to fix various issues with the trackpad – are
the annoyances you describe there even after applying the update?

[1]
[https://forum.pine64.org/announcements.php?aid=23](https://forum.pine64.org/announcements.php?aid=23)

~~~
jhiesey
Yes this issue is still there unfortunately.

------
Youden
This is a tad tangential but has anyone done extensive software development
using an ARM device?

I was able to get pretty far with a rooted Samsung tablet running Debian in a
container (C++ development works great, you can install stuff like VSCode and
Clang without too much trouble) but when it came to anything mobile,
ironically it all fell apart because the Android toolchain isn't built for
ARM64 (save the one in the Debian repositories, which is too old). I even
tried to update the package myself but apparently Debian copies all the code
into its own repositories and doesn't make clear how to update it.

The Pinebook Pro, having the same CPU architecture, should have the same
problems, at least for now. I'm very interested in seeing them solved though.

~~~
hajile
I've done some web development work on my raspberry pi 4. It's _almost_ there,
but even using vim, some things are still too slow (I do primarily front-end
development). 4gb of RAM means I can't have a ton of things going on, but it's
easily enough for back-end, webpack, editor, and a handful of tabs without
much issue.

Now, there are some CPU differences here. 3399 has 2 A72 cores at 2GHz and 4
A53 cores at 1.5GHz. The pi 4 can be overclocked to 1.8-2GHz pretty easily
which makes it about as fast. I believe the Pi 4 GPU is slower, but it's
mostly not relevant for dev work. When Ubuntu finishes working out the bugs
with their 64-bit OS, it should offer another big speedup. That is probably
enough to boost JS performance (and general system performance) high enough to
not feel especially painful.

~~~
floatboth
I would take 4xA72 over 2xA72+4xA53 any time. Heterogeneous systems are
annoying. Linux probably has some fancy scheduler settings to prefer fast
cores (??) but FreeBSD will happily schedule compile jobs onto the slow-ass
A53 cores when the A72s are idle, which is annoying.

UPD: NetBSD prefers fast cores now:
[https://twitter.com/mrgtwentythree/status/121661988693740339...](https://twitter.com/mrgtwentythree/status/1216619886937403392)

4xA72@2GHz is not bad for web development (I have that on my MACCHIATObin),
the thing with the RPi4 is that it has worse RAM and I/O. SD cards are
_garbage_ and you really only have USB3 to share between everything else.
Having native SATA makes everything better :)

~~~
hajile
There is only 1 PCIe lane and it goes to the USB3 controller. Running from a
SSD on USB3 isn't that bad, but they still haven't made default booting from
USB possible yet.

I don't think RAM is an issue though. Performance seems to scale pretty much
linearly with clockspeed improvements which indicates either the RAM timing is
tied to the clockspeeds (seems unlikely) so bandwidth is increasing or it
already has more than it can use. That said, rk3399 designs tend to get about
20% better performance (or around 1gb/s) on synthetics.

I'm surprised better IO doesn't exist on the chip if Broadcomm planned on
selling it to other customers. I don't think a single SATA port would greatly
increase costs, but would have a huge impact on performance.

As a final thought, they really need to consider mounting the RAM and CPU on
the other side of the PCB. That would allow good cooling solutions that don't
compromise the other board functionality.

------
dmix
I love the little yellow note they included inside to mention powering without
the lithium battery plugged in.

Something built with hackers in mind.

~~~
Brian_K_White
Thank you for bringing this to my attention and causing me to go back and look
closer at the pic.

I was JUST thinking:

* This makes all the stuff I did to set up octoprint for my 3d printer obsolete in one shot. I have spent more money than $200 and many hours trying to find unusual usb and hdmi ribbon cables and right-angle plugs, and designing and 3d printing a frame and stand for a touch screen and pi4, bt keyboard... for an end result that is frankly not very elegant. And here is all the same stuff in a much tidier package all in one effortless shot. (this is all true of pretty much any laptop of course, not just this one)

* BUT... Oh right, I keep forgetting. Laptops have batteries, which go bad in just a couple years, and many laptops do not run without the battery connected. The pi4 setup has no lithium battery to go bad in a couple years, and it's passively cooled. It can sit there plugged in and powered-on 24/7 for years, and most laptops can not.

So you just removed that issue. Thanks!

~~~
johnchristopher
Any pictures of your pi4 :) ?

------
hajile
Performance is a pretty known quantity as these chips have been in chromebooks
for almost 4 years now.

The big question for me is drivers. Last I checked, rk3399 SBCs had terrible
issues with non-android linux GPU drivers. Has that been fixed yet?

EDIT: looks like the biggest 64-bit issues have now been fixed. I'll have to
try again. Now to get it booting from an external SSD...

[https://ubuntu.com/blog/updated-images-of-ubuntu-for-the-
ras...](https://ubuntu.com/blog/updated-images-of-ubuntu-for-the-raspberry-
pi-2-3-and-4)

------
jessaustin
I haven't bothered checking TFA's complaints about Debian packaging, but npm
certainly is available for arm.

    
    
      $ uname -m -p -i
      aarch64 aarch64 aarch64
      $ npm --version
      6.13.6

~~~
JeremyMorgan
I didn't try very hard to install it, but I'll do that and update the article.

------
throw0x2away
It looks like a perfect "burner" laptop! Can be very useful when traveling
overseas, hostile countries.

------
thom
I've been tempted by these as semi-destructible machines for my young kids to
cut their teeth on. The oldest has a Chromebook but reinstalled with GalliumOS
which has been perfectly adequate so far. I'd be intrigued to see a direct
comparison between these as two ultra-cheap Linux options.

~~~
qubex
Why are children these days ‘allowed’ to ’destructive’? I was using my
mother’s NeXT Cube back in the early nineties when I was about eleven or
twelve and it’s still in mint condition. It was made very clear to me that
allowing me to use it was an enormous privilege and that if I had in any way
damaged it there would have been hell to pay and I have absolutely no doubt
that my arse would’ve been kicked into tomorrow if I had broken my side of the
deal. Teaching kids to take care of stuff is a key point in the escape from
disposable consumerism.

~~~
noodle_face_
My dad would have loved to have you instead of me. He walked in on me with the
family PC taken completely apart and flipped out, lol. I agree with you
though.

------
s17n
If anybody wants one of these in like-new condition with an ISO keyboard, I'll
sell you mine (I'm American, ordered the ISO keyboard by mistake :/ )

~~~
fnigi
Except your mail is not in your profile :(

~~~
s17n
whoops, should be fixed

------
rahuldottech
Honestly, I'm so impressed with this device.

I really want to get this just so I can hack the hell out of it. With all that
empty space in the case, there are _so_ many possibilities...

------
twotwotwo
I have an old RK3399-based Chromebook. I now end up using its Intel "Core
m"-based counterpart (originally bought for my partner) more, but the ARM
machine was/is 100% fine as a fancy terminal for my backend Web dev work. I
had no trouble messing with Go on an even earlier ARM (Tegra K1) Chromebook.

The Surface Pro X did not take off, but I suspect that's a combination of ARM
not being competitive _at the high end_ and needing a friendlier ecosystem.
ARM might do a bit better once larger core designs and denser process nodes
(RK3399 is 28nm!) filter down to lower-priced devices and there's great
software to run, like a refined Windows/ARM or Chrome OS w/Android or
something else.

(I've been hoping for ARM to make inroads into Serious Computers for some
time, so who knows, but it _does_ seem successful in lower-end Chromebooks,
and Amazon and MS are publicly experimenting with it, so...)

------
3fe9a03ccd14ca5
> _You can’t fault the Pine64; everything has to be built for ARM and that’s
> still a work in progress. I eagerly await the day Visual Studio Code is
> available for ARM._

Thankfully this is changing rapidly, thanks in part to raspberry pi desktops.

Most, if not all, popular server apps are already available in ARM. Desktop
apps will take time.

~~~
seabrookmx
There's community builds:
[https://code.headmelted.com/](https://code.headmelted.com/)

------
Evidlo
Would've been great if they had used a Thinkpad keyboard like on the Novena:
[https://www.crowdsupply.com/img/b4cb/novena-954-edit_jpg_pro...](https://www.crowdsupply.com/img/b4cb/novena-954-edit_jpg_project-
body.jpg)

~~~
HeWhoLurksLate
Yeah, except that that's A) the designer, artisan variant, and B) a whole
different class of device. IIRC, it uses a semi-integrated standalone wireless
keyboard, which would add a whack ton of thickness to something that's
marketed as being fairly small.

------
nwrk
Enjoyed the article. Thanks for write up.

4GB RAM sounds terrible even for browsing and basic tasks.

I'm looking to switching to one of those devices in future, so far on trusted
Thinkpad x230 (no FHD, $150 USD) for travel purposes.

Can anyone comment on "no NPM yet that I know of though" ?

Does node development work normally ?

~~~
snogglethorpe
Using a reasonable OS (Linux etc), 4GB is absolutely fine for browsing and
basic tasks, and indeed is often fine for development and other more-than-
basic tasks as well, depending on how exactly you work (Emacs/Vim instead of
an IDE, for instance).

Is 4GB considered too little under Windows these days?

~~~
qubex
It amazes me no end that when I turned 18 I was contracted to work on a Cray
J90 with a staggering 128 Mwords of RAM at a financial institution, and that
today 4GB is considered tight for running a consumer OS with a browser with
more than a few tabs open.

I really cannot fathom what could possibly require so much memory. It’s just
taking some hypertext markup, some scripts, and rendering a web-page.

I genuinely do not understand. I’m totally baffled.

~~~
Taniwha
and I think back to the old B6700 ... for which we bought 1.5Mb of core (yes,
actual hand threaded core) for $1M in the late 70s ..... it supported 40
terminals

------
ocdtrekkie
I've gotten my PineBook Pro and I'm seriously impressed with the build quality
and feel for a $200 machine. My touchpad has a minor defect in how it was
installed, but it's probably an easy fix.

------
smnscu
How could one start building their own laptop as a fun side project?

------
Scarbutt
Are there any $200 laptops like this one but x86 powered?

~~~
jolmg
New chromebooks or used laptops. I recommend used; you get better quality
models. Who needs a brand new laptop, anyway?

------
purplezooey
Is the screen IPS?

~~~
boutad
Yes, that is listed on the product page.

[https://www.pine64.org/pinebook-pro/](https://www.pine64.org/pinebook-pro/)

------
rogerclark
self-promotion: i also reviewed this laptop in a YouTube video:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EoIfSnFCs84](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EoIfSnFCs84)

------
harry8
Is it possible to buy in bulk for education purposes?

------
zerealshadowban
This bodes well in terms of lower prices, better battery longevity, and
incredible performance for the soon-coming ARM MacBooks.

~~~
nwah1
Macbooks aren't primarily priced according to the cost of production. They
command a huge producer surplus from brand loyalty, vendor lock-in, etc.

~~~
zerealshadowban
Yes, supply and demand are both relevant.

On the supply side, the very high cost of Intel CPUs has been adversely
constraining the pricing flexibility of Mac computers. Apple sells orders of
magnitude more iOS devices, all ARM-based; if they could sharply increase the
sale of Mac computers, it would also be profitable for them -- and it might
unify+simplify their software development efforts.

