
As Coding Boot Camps Close, the Field Faces a Reality Check - kawera
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/24/technology/coding-boot-camps-close.html
======
phatbyte
As someone who interviewed dozens of bootcampers I can give some insight.

1) Most of the bootcamps teach the basic of front-end, and a lot of them,
teach by doing without explaining a lot of basic concepts. They are basically
money grabbers and throw these people out of the door as fast as possible to
get their money back.

2) A lot of the students are in for the money, not for the love of the job.
Sorry, but it's true. I don't mean to include everyone, but out of 30
students, only 2 kept working in my previous company, they weren't good
developers, but they loved the job and kept learning and improving themselves.
Nothing wrong with pursuing a good paycheck, but in developers world in order
to keep being relevant in the next 2/3 years you need to keep sharping your
skills.

3) The best developers I worked with are the self-taught guys/girls who learn
on their own before they even hit the college. The most boring developers I
work with, the the ones who only learn to code while in college and never
developed any interested to learn before that. But the most horrible devs I
work with came from boot camps. Not their fault, it's just how bad these
bootcamps are.

~~~
vonmoltke
> A lot of the students are in for the money, not for the love of the job.

Who cares? Can they do the job or not? Do they have the work ethic and
professionalism to continue to do so?

The vast majority of people, including those who excel at their respective
fields, don't love their jobs. This industry needs to stop using "passion" as
a lazy signal for work ethic.

> The most boring developers I work with, the the ones who only learn to code
> while in college and never developed any interested to learn before that.

Again, who gives a shit if they are "boring"?

~~~
jasode
_> Who cares?_

Many programmers who _enjoy_ programming will have a _preference_ for hiring
other programmers who also enjoy it. That doesn't mean they can't hire
dispassionate programmers but that still doesn't erase the _preference_ for
passionate programmers.

 _> This industry needs to stop using "passion" as a lazy signal for work
ethic._

There's definitely a place for dispassionate programmers (as that's probably
the majority of programmers who just think of it as a "job"). However, it's
wrong to vilify programmers-that-love-their-craft having a _preference_ for
other programmers-that-love-their-craft.

~~~
vonmoltke
This isn't about preferences. This is about the false dichotomy proffered in
the original post I responded to, and elsewhere from time to time, that there
exist only programmers-who-love-their-craft and programmers-who-just-want-a-
fat-paycheck, and that the former is orders of magnitude better than the
latter. I also think "love" is significantly stronger than "enjoy" or
"interested in".

------
gfodor
Attention code boot campers: if you literally have any other relevant
experience for a software engineering job, my advice is to just leave the code
camp off your resume and focus on that. And then, your experience from the
code camp will come through positively in the actual technical interview
process.

Hiring managers are under a deluge of underqualified code boot camp
candidates, who are trying to effectively get past resume screens using all
sorts of tricks. The blow back from that (I'm speculating here) is that code
boot camp folks are probably often being screened out early at a lot of places
since its just too difficult to assess them on paper based on the extensive
grooming their resumes and github profiles get by their mentors at these
bootcamps.

Instead, my advice would be to clearly label the work you've done at a code
camp in your README files and include a link to your github. Explicitly call
out on your resume projects you have done _on your own_ , and talk about those
in your cover letter. If you have literally any other projects or experience
related to software engineering include those on your resume and emphasize
them!

But highlighting your code camp and trying to tout it as "highly selective"
and "accepts only top 1% of applicants" and all that stuff may be doing more
harm than good at this point. The well has been poisoned by enough under-
qualified people applying that ultimately need to be screened out via an on-
site interview, which is time consuming and considered a failure of the hiring
process, since they have been set up to pass the resume screen and the initial
phone screens. So my advice is to just leave it off, consider the knowledge a
secret asset, and don't risk inadvertently damaging your own application!

All it takes is for a company to be burned once or twice by misleading
applications from a coding boot camp candidate to just auto-screen out all
resumes from them in general. It sucks, but I found myself looking at resumes
that seemed genuinely good, but as soon as the boot camp was listed there, I
no longer had trust in what I was looking at. So be mindful, there may be
folks out there who would have normally had you interview but didn't just
because of past negative experiences with others from your code camp, or other
boot camps altogether!

~~~
samcheng
As one of those under-deluge hiring managers, I've found that candidates have
already begun hiding their bootcamp / academy education during the application
process.

It is still pretty obvious, though: the resumes are all the same format, as
are the application channels and techniques, and experience levels.

I'd recommend these individuals look toward internships, as I haven't found
one qualified for a full-time job yet. Why aren't bootcamps lining up
internship programs?

~~~
wyclif
Is a bootcamper over age, say, 30 going to be able to get an internship? The
problem there is that internships are generally regarding across the industry
as being for fresh college grads.

~~~
nerdponx
This is an issue for anyone looking to change a career, not specifically boot
camp grads.

------
trowawee
"But the coding boot-camp field now faces a sobering moment, as two large
schools have announced plans to shut down this year — despite backing by major
for-profit education companies, Kaplan and the Apollo Education Group, the
parent of the University of Phoenix."

Not sure "despite" is the right phrasing here. I'm a DBC grad from about three
years ago, and I know DBC had various issues, but I do suspect that there was
pressure from Kaplan to expand rapidly, crank prices, and decrease the quality
of the education (because that's how Kaplan made their money everywhere else
they've been profitable). Kaplan bought them right before my cohort started,
and there was serious concern even then that it was a bad omen. I think a lot
of startups in general would do well with less pressure for rapid growth, and
I suspect that the bootcamp market is much the same.

~~~
christophilus
I quit the Iron Yard right after Apollo bought them/imvested in them. I have
to say, the situation was similar. Reminds me of DHH's semi regular rants
about the pitfalls of selling your business... It almost always is a bad move
for the product, and is often regretted by the founders, despite a large
windfall.

------
ThrustVectoring
The rapid expansion was likely a huge part of why those coding bootcamps
closed. Coding bootcamps generally aren't major educational institutions -
they're usually more like recruiting agencies that happen to target people who
are about 9 weeks of serious effort away from being entry-level developers.
That is, they're limited by the number of high-quality applicants that they
can find and vet, not by the ability to recruit teachers and refine their
curriculum.

~~~
WindyCityBrew
This makes sense to me and rings true to my own experience. I went to a
bootcamp and the people that did the best were those with a good deal of prior
experience, and thus able to digest the most information. Students coming with
zero (or close to it) programming experience/effort didn't perform well.

I'm including myself in the "good deal of prior experience" group, I did fine
in the class and in my subsequent jobs. My class even had students that had
been web devs on less desirable stacks using the class to ramp up on rails and
they did even better.

~~~
ThrustVectoring
Yeah, one of the best-served demographics is "People who attended at least 2
years of engineering school and either did not graduate or are underemployed
after graduation."

------
9erdelta
I think traditional education, university, has a lot of flaws. But I also
think one reason college/university has been around for a "long" time is that
the system has merit. That merit in my mind being grading rigor, deadlines,
classmates, and office hours.

I haven't done a bootcamp, but I've done quite a few MOOC courses so my
opinion is based on equating the two. This might not be a valid assumption.

To me, MOOCs and I'd imagine Bootcamps are good to get an intro to something
new, but they can't replace rigorous study of a defined base of
fundamentals...i.e. a course of study.

What seems like a real opportunity are programs like OSU post-bacc in comp
sci, and GA Tech comp sci masters. I've been toying with OSU for about 2 years
now, and haven't commited to it yet because they don't have some of the
courses online that I'd like to take (computer graphics). And I haven't done
the masters program at Tech yet because I don't want to get into that without
a more solid foundation. To me, more schools with post-bacc in comp sci and
expanded course offerings (online) would find themselves flooded with demand.
Recently I signed up at UCLA Extensions...It is almost the right thing, but
still has a limited offering and isn't quite the right fit.

~~~
xor1
Which courses are you doing at UCLA extension? I'm hoping to get into the GA
Tech Master's eventually, but I know it's extremely competitive, especially as
someone who doesn't have a CS degree.

~~~
9erdelta
Fundamentals of Software Development. If you are familiar with loops, if/else,
simple functions that don't return anything or take any arguments, and using
printf...I'd say give this class a pass. It is trivial really unless you are
100% unfamiliar with programming. Unfortunately, I didn't make that judgement
until after the date where I could be refunded.

------
Method-X
Most coding bootcamps are a complete waste of money. Ever since I launched
[https://edabit.com](https://edabit.com), I've noticed a ton of traffic coming
from these bootcamps and I'm not sure what to think of it. On the one hand, I
like the free promotion but on the other, I can't help but feel as though
these people are getting ripped off (considering they can access the site for
free).

~~~
allanbreyes
Bootcamp dropout, here. I 100% agree.

I left The Starter League after the first semester when I realized the buyer's
remorse of paying more per day than tuition at MIT. The prices for bootcamps
simply aren't worth it, especially given the numerous online and self-paced
options out there... many of which are free. How my story ended: I left the
bootcamp and took a few Udacity Nanodegree programs for $200/month and (full
disclosure) loved them so much that I applied for and got a job at Udacity. I
really flourished in the self-paced environment, and found that I was able to
learn a lot more, faster. Now, I get to go to work every day and build systems
that provide affordable education for students across the globe.

There are so many amazing and cheaper options out there, and I cringe when I
hear about people dropping $15k+ for the same (or better) content that they
can get for 100x to INF-x cheaper.

~~~
speedplane
I definitely agree that there are less expensive options out there, but self-
study isn't for everyone. Also, one of the main benefits of these boot-camps
are their career counseling services.

At the end of the day, if you're able to increase your salary from $30k to
$80k, the extra $15k on a course seems well worth it.

------
pfarnsworth
Same thing happened during the dotcom boom/bust. Newly-minted MCSE (Microsoft
Certified Systems Engineers) were coming out of the woodwork with almost no
real experience, and immediately getting well-paying jobs ($80k-100k at the
time). As soon as the bust hit, those certificates were worthless and those
people moved away from the Bay Area in droves. They didn't have any real
passion for the job, they just knew that they could make good money if they
passed a few tests. We called them dot-com migrant workers, at the time. The
traffic was actually pretty decent for 3-5 years on 101.

I assume the same thing will happen with bootcampers, because I feel like many
of them that I've met lack the passion for CS that the better programmers
have. I know a few bootcampers, a couple from HackBright and a couple at my
work. One of the HackBright graduates never found a job and went back to her
old job which was kind of depressing considering how much she spent. But the
others were decent, not great but decent. But I would prefer hiring a good
fresh grad with a couple of internships under her belt over any bootcamper
I've worked with, mainly because of the depth of knowledge they would bring to
the table. Let's be real, how much can someone learn in 12-16 weeks, compared
to someone with 4 years+?

~~~
gaius
_Newly-minted MCSE (Microsoft Certified Systems Engineers)_

I had MCSE back in the day (my org wanted n of them so it could become a gold
partner of Microsoft or something, and the perks such as MSDN subs and 10
support calls were nice).

What killed it was "braindumps", people weirdly undermining their own
certification by posting the questions they could remember online, until
databases of all the questions were built up, at that point you could
literally just memorise the exam, or blatantly cheat in some locations. That
was why it was worthless; but someone who had actually learnt the material the
old-fashioned way would be competent.

------
donatj
Here in Minnesota we went from getting almost no developer applicants and
unable to fill seats to a TON of absolutely under qualified applicants who
went to boot camps.

I'm not sure it's an improvement.

We've hired a few, but only one has actually worked out.

~~~
sidlls
Could you elaborate on what you hired the bootcamp graduates to do, what you
mean by "under qualified" for the rejected candidates, and the gap between
expectations and performance of the ones you did hire?

------
dwrench07
Current Data Science Student at Galvenize in Phoenix here.

I came from a mix of technologies (approximate knowledge, but a master of
none) before settling into the data sciences (Python ecosystem).

Galvenize has been precisely the challenge I was looking for and so much more.
I barely got by the interview process, but picked up a Veteran Scholarship
worth half my $16,000 tuition along the way.

Quit my job as a Salesforce case jockey and currently trying to stay afloat
with the curriculum.

It's intense. As it should be. I want it that way. Otherwise everyone would be
doing it. A counter argument might be that; "every one and their mother is
taking a 'Data Science' title for the pay." From 2013 to now, that may have a
lot of truth, but they are eventually found out I hope.

As for my cohort. There is a Physics PhD, undergrads in Mathematics and
Physics, an acctuary Statistician from an insurance company, a Mom, and
Biology grad, and a Veteran. An elclectic group I feel.

At this point, half way through, we just want to survive and not wash out.

Finally, once capstone projects get rolling in a couple weeks and whom is left
of us should be feeling pretty good about their accomplishment and competent
to take on entry and junior level Data Science roles.

~~~
roel_v
"There is a Physics PhD, undergrads in Mathematics and Physics, an acctuary
Statistician from an insurance company, a Mom, and Biology grad, and a
Veteran. An elclectic group I feel."

How can this work? I mean, I can understand those with a math background being
there to learn the tooling and programming, but how can a mom (presumably with
no prior education?) and a vet (also presumably without any other
qualifications) keep up? Or, if they're teaching at the level of 'this is the
slope in a linear equation', what's in it for the math guys? I just don't
understand how this sort of thing works in real life.

~~~
upvotinglurker
It's implied that the vet is the commenter themselves ("picked up a Veteran
Scholarship worth half my $16,000 tuition"), who "came from a mix of
technologies (approximate knowledge, but a master of none)" \- hardly "no
qualifications."

There's no reason to assume the mom isn't similar (many stay-at-home mothers
in the US have college degrees).

------
Alacart
Who gives a shit where or how you learned to code. What a stupid and indirect
way to filter candidates.

Just show me what you've done. Send me repo links, production code, or even
just the end result with some sort of proof that you actually built it. That's
the best part about any craft - practicing or building something creates
tangible results. If you don't already have a portfolio, get to work on that
before you start applying.

~~~
larzang
That's great for front-end guys, but it's frustrating to me as a back-end
developer to have expectations that I can show live examples of my past work
to potential employers when I've spent years designing and building enterprise
internal systems which have no visible result outside of the code itself,
which is under strict NDA.

I get it, development is a craft, it's easy to judge the quality or experience
level of a coworker after having to deal with their PRs for a month or two.
However, it's not like any toy project I could throw on github is going to
have real relation to the actual work I do, and trying to replicate e.g. some
of the third party integrations I've written internally as public stand-alone
packages is going to get me fired and sued by an overprotective employer.

This isn't a hypothetical fear either, multiple times I've gone through phone
interviews to a "lets review some of your past work" stage, and my "I can't
legally show you any of these things, but here's general descriptions of some
of the major internal projects I've led or handled solo" has resulted in
failing to make the next interview round.

~~~
stult
Have you tried putting together an abbreviated version of your work on github?
I've had success with toy utility apps to demonstrate my coding style and
basic competencies because I am in a very similar position. Generally I've
found it's less about having a large, completed application and more about
having a solid chunk that's well architected and demonstrates an understanding
of best practices. Like I have a bare bones UI WPF app with multiple projects,
dependency injection with a stairway pattern, thorough comments, and decent
though not complete unit test coverage. It doesn't do anything special and it
only took like a weekend to put together, but it shows I know what I'm doing.
It's a private repo and none of the code shows up in Google searches so it's
also pretty clear that I didn't just copy and paste someone else's work.

------
mattnewton
Sort of off topic, but in the second picture the whiteboard says "Ajacks" (and
not ajax, for asynchronous JavaScript and xml). Makes me wonder how fast and
loose they were playing with instructors, unless this is just a staged shot,
or maybe a joke I didn't get.

Not that you need to know what the acronym stands for (hell, no one I know
uses the technique to get xml anymore anyways!), but it is weird to see the
details wrong in such a detail-oriented discipline, and wouldn't people wonder
where the name came from?

~~~
asciimo
I think it's a joke. I doubt that the instruction is exclusively verbal; they
must have seen "AJAX" somewhere along the line before whiteboarding Web
applications. They're just having fun.

~~~
Kiro
I doubt it.

------
lando2319
I went to 2 bootcamps The Starter League Web Dev '12 and Mobile Makers for iOS
Dev '14\. Neither of the bootcamps are still in existence today. I feel
fortunate to have gone through them when I did. Post Bootcamp I did
independent work for 5 years, Web/Mobile Dev, before joining a startup.

IMO Bootcamps are great, people try and add up the cost and run the numbers,
but the experience of growing and struggling through stuff with others, in an
in-person environment, was enriching.

If there was a Kotlin Bootcamp in my area I'd be interested in learning more.

------
alistproducer2
I've always had a problem with the phrase "learn to code." It assumes just
being able to encode a thought in a programming language is good enough. It
isn't. Having a thought worth encoding is what separates "super junior" devs
from ones who actually know what they're doing. Being able to formulate
worthwhile, efficient solution to problems takes more than 12 weeks to learn.
There's no substitute for time and experience. One of the reasons traditional
college works well is that it forces you to spend a long period (~4 years)
immersed in the discipline: thinking and reasoning about computer problems. Do
you come away from that with everything you'll need to make production
software? No. That still necessitates experience. You will, however, be able
to learn from that experience more efficiently because you've got the
fundamentals.

I work at a large company that absorbs tons of MIS/CIS grads. The non-CS grads
that excel are the ones that are constantly hungry to teach themselves new
things but for the most part they suck compared to the CS people. I can only
imagine how much worse these bootcamp folks must be.

------
WhitneyLand
Can someone remind me why boot camps were even a thing? What employer wouldn't
be more impressed by a work sample? One possible plan:

1) Define success before doing anything. Pick specific companies or a
specialty you want to end up with first.

2a) Take the three months (or however long you can afford to invest) and work
backwards. Figure out the most impressive and relevant project that can be
reasonably be accomplished in that time. Make sure it's part of a hot trend
because the time spent is probably the same regardless.

2b) In parallel, network and build the best quality contacts you can in your
target area. Blog about any interesting observations made as the project
progresses. Come right out and say in your posts that you are doing this in
hopes of building skills, experience, and proof of your abilities, and say
where you want to end up.

3) When its done, make it public online make sure it presents with visual
appeal and with cogent explanations. Ask for feedback from your contacts,
because that's your excuse to show off: "sure was challenging but I was able
to go from zero to learning and building this in three months!". Ask for
feedback because it's your chance to ask about openings and interviews. Ask
for feedback because you really will need it.

How does somebody new make a good project choice, when taking into account
everything that would actually be impressive and help land a job would require
years of experience to know? You can't without feedback or validation, so
don't make the mistake of choosing solo. Just ask people who are in the target
area to help you decide. Lots of people would be willing to give input and
it's more chances for networking and follow up conversations.

~~~
trowawee
"How does somebody new make a good project choice, when taking into account
everything that would actually be impressive and help land a job would require
years of experience to know? You can't without feedback or validation, so
don't make the mistake of choosing solo. Just ask people who are in the target
area to help you decide. Lots of people would be willing to give input and
it's more chances for networking and follow up conversations."

If only there were some sort of...educational institution...that could put you
into contact with people in the target area and get you that kind of input,
even if your personal network doesn't already include people in that
profession. And that could help you figure out the most impressive and
relevant project that could be reasonably accomplished in a short time. And
that could provide instructors from the industry who could provide immediate,
rapid feedback on your projects. And then, maybe that institution could
connect you to a network of quality contacts composed of previous graduates
and contacts from the instructors' time in the industry.

~~~
WhitneyLand
This is misleading. I hope if anyone here is in the process of choosing, they
will consider that making these contacts would likely not be that difficult.
Reason is, the type of contact determines the difficulty.

Building a high quality sales contact list and network is extremely difficult,
it can take decades. It's not uncommon for salespeople to be hired mostly on
the basis of their rolodex.

Conversely approaching someone to ask for career feedback is much easier. In
general, people don't want to be sold something, but they don't mind helping
out an up and coming person in in the field. It can even make them feel good
they were respected enough to be asked.

------
acjohnson55
I think it's just natural consolidation in an early-stage market. There's only
going to be room for a few major brands in the space, and then some niche
players in particular regions and specialities. A lot of also-ran bootcamps
are just trying to cash in in the meantime.

I remain a big believer that bootcamps will continue to supply a lot of the
talent in the tech world, particularly in app development. I know too many
success stories to think otherwise.

------
DylanBohlender
It's almost as if putting huge expansionary pressure on (mostly) locally-
minded organizations causes them to fail. Who knew?

A couple of cherry-picked examples don't mean the coding bootcamp industry is
going anywhere. IMO, there's no reason to panic until these bootcamps are
being advertised alongside x-ray technician jobs during midday reruns of Judge
Judy.

Now, the glut of junior devs entering the market - that's something to be a
smidge concerned about.

------
veza
If you go to a bootcamp you loose the struggle.

    
    
      The struggle to choose your domain: Web, Mobile, Embedded, Databases etc.
      The struggle to choose the programming language(s) / technologies to learn.
      The struggle to choose in which order and from where to learn them (for free).
      The struggle to choose your Code Editor / IDE.
    

That's a lot of time spent learning about technologies to make the right
decision for you, and googling for answers.

But guess what you'll be doing as a Software Engineer :)

I didn't go to one but I imagine those decisions are being made for you. But I
know about _the struggle_ , and I remember it with pleasure and satisfaction.

~~~
fapjacks
Let's face it: People that go to bootcamp on the whole are not in the same set
of people that have passion for programming. Most of those people discovered
very early on their passion for computers, and either went to school for it,
or are self-taught and don't need a bootcamp. I'm not saying it's impossible
to meet someone that didn't know they _looooved_ programming until they were
35. I'm just saying that _most_ of the people in bootcamp are after the
promise of salary to the exclusion of having a passion for computers.

------
peter303
At the annual Denver Startup Week I notice about a third to half of the
startup industry is incestuous, that provides facilities for developers to
work better. These are mainly code academies and coworking spaces. I feel if
the tech industry ever ever has one of its periodic down turns, then this it
could rapidly implode with all these developer services. The reality is about
half of the workers entered the tech industry since its last major down turn
during 2000 - 2003 and live in the fairy tail land that it could not happen to
us. Welcome to economic reality, suckers.

~~~
speedplane
Don't count on that. If an economic downturn happens, it's entirely possible
that the less experienced, but less expensive developers will do well. It may
be the experienced one will feel the hurt.

~~~
ryandrake
We don't have to guess... What happened to each group during the last two
tech/economic downturns (2000-2003 and 2007-2009)?

~~~
speedplane
In the tech bubble of the early 2000s, everyone got burned. In 2007-2009, few
in tech were burned. Not sure that's relevant.

~~~
peter303
In recent downturns people without college degrees got burned. HR could ask
for more credentials, even if they were less relevant than experience. Its
just its been so long since the last IT downturn, the newbies feel invincible.

------
eighthnate
These boot camps are just this decades iteration of the "tech/programming
schools" of the 2000s.

In the 2000s, tons of programming schools were created to exploit the lax
student loan programs. They would bring in countless people and charge then
$10K or $20K or even more to teach "programming" that you could realistically
learn on your own. But it was so easy for people to get student loans and it
was so easy for these schools to get people low-end programming jobs, that
they made a killing off of it.

After the financial crisis and the crackdown on ineffective "programming/tech"
schools ( especially their student loan programs ), these guys rebranded and
remarketed themselves into "boot camps" which take a portion of your future
wages.

When times are good, pretty much anyone who can type of a keyboard can get a
job, but when a recession comes, these "boot camps" graduates are the first to
be let go.

So my guess is that these boot camps expect a recession soon and are cashing
out. Maybe they are the canary in the coal mine. Maybe the tech bubble is
going to pop soon. Given how much they charge (10 to 15%) of the wages for the
first few years of their graduates, I doubt they would leave so much money on
the table unless they feel a shift in the economy or hiring is coming in the
near future.

------
cribbles
This is very similar in content and sentiment to the item linked in
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14831918](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14831918),
so I'd like to echo my comments from that thread:

> Two specific coding bootcamps that 1) had been acquired by for-profit
> education conglomerates and 2) underwent relatively rapid expansion into
> second and third tier tech markets went out of business.

> As evidence of a larger trend, this article cites a single quote from the
> CEO of "a private lender and an alternative accreditor for the fast-growing
> boot camp sector." This is unpersuasive.

This article quotes Ryan Craig of University Ventures vs Rick O'Donnell of
Skills Fund, to nearly the same effect.

So: big name closures of two bootcamps with similar pain points and
acquisition contexts, vs. seemingly healthy expansion and unchanged placement
rates for schools like Flatiron (mentioned in the article), Hack Reactor, App
Academy, General Assembly, and so on. Further consolidation in the field
wouldn't surprise me, but are we really observing a trend worth reporting on?

------
latchkey
Good riddance.

Once recruiters figured out that placing these under qualified people into
jobs was not a good thing, the bootcamps started to train people how to fake
their resumes. Just like how people figured out that if they want a specific
job, they only need to update their resume to include all the keywords in the
job description.

When I was hiring and screening hundreds of people, applications would show
'projects' completed on them as if they were real work. Hired.com was full of
this for a while until they started blocking them there too. People would go
so far as to make a domain name for a class project appear as if it was a real
company. You'd go look at their github and realize they only made a few
commits towards the 'project'. How is that a demonstration of skill?

I'm sure a few people have come out of these bootcamps with some real
knowledge and skills. But this is the edge case, not the norm. You can't
shortcut your way to a well paying software engineering career by spending a
ton of money.

~~~
enraged_camel
>>When I was hiring and screening hundreds of people, applications would show
'projects' completed on them as if they were real work.

You have to start somewhere, right? Those projects may not be "real" work but
they may be enough to have given the candidate exposure to various problem
domains and experience in solving problems using code, which should really be
sufficient if you are hiring entry-level devs.

I mean what is the difference between the projects I do on my weekends and the
projects a code school student completes as part of their curriculum? At the
end of the day there is only one thing that matters, and that is whether the
candidate you are interviewing has the necessary skills and insights or the
potential to gain them.

Keep in mind that many computer science graduates can't even solve fizzbuzz.

~~~
gfodor
The difference between the projects you do on your weekends and projects a
code school student completes are absolutely immense.

An applicant with strong weekend projects implies:

\- They have a passion for building software

\- They are self directed learners

\- They have the initiative and determination to build things and ship them

\- They managed to navigate problems without having an instructor hold their
hand

\- They actually did the work, and aren't taking credit for a group effort
they may have had minimal impact on

Code camp projects don't say much of anything either way to me on a resume.
They don't rule out the above but they don't support it either. They basically
say:

\- I care enough about learning to code that I paid for a code camp

\- I didn't get kicked out or completely fail out of the code camp

\- I realize that employers value seeing projects on resumes

To me putting the code camp projects on a resume when they are not clearly
marked as being part of that code camp is as dishonest as doing it for college
projects when they are not listed under your education background. I've seen
countless resumes come in where the projects from code camps are presented in
a way so that the recruiter/hiring manager thinks they were self directed
projects the person did on their own. The code camps know that this is a
strong signal for top talent, and so they mentor the students to craft their
resumes to mask the fact that the projects were assigned work.

The result of this, sadly, was that enrollment in code bootcamps became a
first order screen for me. I'm sure there were some good people in there. But
the work required to actually decipher what the resume was actually telling me
required too much effort. (It would require opening the projects they did,
trying to figure out if it was assigned or not, if it was a group project, and
what contributions they made directly.) In the end, this combined with the
fact that many code boot camp applicants are woefully underqualified made it
not worth the time to sift through them to find the best ones.

~~~
oneneptune
What about bootcamp projects on the resume that are solo projects? I have 3
bootcamp projects on my resume and was the only contributor to all 3.

------
ZGF4_
It's easy to bash these code camps saying they don't do a good job at teaching
people the "real stuff" like traditional education does. People graduating
with CS degrees are probably on average better than a boot camp grad but they
likely spent 8x the time and money. And most of then still need a lot of
investment from their first employer.

Education is broken on both ends. Spending 4 years teaching yourself will get
you way farther than a CS degree will. Code boot camps need to focus on
teaching people how to self learn because that's really the only thing
separates average engineers from great ones.

~~~
johan_larson
> Spending 4 years teaching yourself will get you way farther than a CS degree
> will.

For the extremely disciplined, maybe. For the rest, no.

Traditional schooling helps in two ways. First, they point the way to the
important and useful stuff. If you're coming in knowing nothing, it's hard to
figure out what to study. A good school will tell you. Second, they make
demands. They set assignments and exams, grade what you did, and hold you
accountable. They push you harder than you would push yourself, and that's
really useful for anyone who is less than perfectly self-motivated, which is
most of us.

------
bichiliad
Two things:

Firstly, I work with a ton of people who came out of the Recurse Center
(formerly Hacker School) and I've been consistently impressed by them. It
seems to be a pretty self-paced thing, so maybe the people who do well there
are the sorts of people who are excited about what they're learning, and I'm
sure there's a layer of filtering at the hiring level. Just my personal
experience.

Secondly, I think that while learning specific skills (app development, web
development, etc) are really good things, they should totally be a layer on
top of a core foundation of good computer science concepts. "Learning web
development" ideally means "learning how to apply the concepts I know to the
web environment", not "learning how to build a website The Right Way™". I
totally blame inflexibility in these bootcamps not from their inability to
adapt their course material fast enough, but on their lack of good conceptual
foundations.

~~~
wallflower
I've met some alumni of the Recurse Center. They were all career programmers
or hackers prior. It is not a boot camp like the ones mentioned in this
article.

[https://www.recurse.com/not-a-bootcamp](https://www.recurse.com/not-a-
bootcamp)

~~~
bichiliad
That's a fair point and a distinction I didn't entirely understand.

------
aganderson
The article talks about the closure of a couple of bootcamps and then holds up
a few others as examples of ones that are getting it right.

However, it fails to give any solid evidence that any of these exemplar
schools are any more stable/less likely to close than DBC and IY. Are they
profitable or propping themselves up with VC money while trying to find
product/market fit? If they're profitable, how profitable (and for how long)?
What did they do to get there (layoffs, campus closures, pivots to a new
focus)?

The quality of their grads aside, I wouldn't be surprised at all if some of
the schools mentioned in the article also end up closing their doors in the
next year.

------
johan_larson
The US Navy gets some IT work done by Information Systems Technicians. It's
not clear from the job description, but they seem to be something between
software developers and sysadmins. They have 24 weeks of training, which is
comparable to a long civilian bootcamp. Anyone know if they're any good?

[https://www.navy.com/careers/information-and-
technology/info...](https://www.navy.com/careers/information-and-
technology/information-technology.html#ft-training-&-advancement)

~~~
fapjacks
And you get loaded up with a bunch of very relevant people skills like
management skills, and it will teach you all the je ne sais qois about
yourself that you normally see in commercials for the military. Stuff like
discipline and perseverance and drive. There are few other places in the world
that will hand a teenager as much responsibility, trust, and purpose. There
are some kids out there handling millions of dollars' worth of equipment.
Plus, you can travel, you'll get into the best shape of your life, and they'll
even give you a free pair of boots.

------
rvr_
Many of us like to compare software development with other engineering
disciplines. I like to compare it to playing music. Sure you can learn to play
some simple songs in a couple of months, but it takes lots of effort to master
an instrument. Like musicians and sports players, there is no easy way to
become really good as a software developer if you don't start as early as
possible and dedicates your life to it.

Coding bootcamps are just trying to sell a short path where it is not possible
to have one.

------
k__
In Germany we have multiple alternatives.

You can study computer science and software engineering at universities.
(Bachelor/Master of Science/Engineering)

You can study it at universities of applied science.

You can study it (without degree only state-certificate) at a school.
(Staatlich geprüfter Informatiker)

And you can also do an apprenticeship in software development.
(Fachinformatiker für Anwendungsentwicklung)

All are mostly free of charge OR you will even get paid doing them and you got
an officially recognized paper that tells the world that you know stuff.

------
issa
I realize everyone is generalizing but it's easy to lose sight of something
really simple: Different jobs require different skills. Not everyone on the
team needs to know how to make complicated architecture decisions or write the
most efficient sorting algorithm. Personally, I'm happy when there is someone
on my team who can do the things I find boring...even if they don't have a
"passionate" interest in learning more.

~~~
h0undawg
> Not everyone on the team needs to know how to make complicated architecture
> decisions

depends on what you work on. on my team everyone does need to (at least with
guidance). that said, we only really hire those with significant experience OR
college grads who have already proven themselves as interns on the team.

------
good_vibes
Got to go to DevMtn for free in 2016. Got kicked out for smoking weed and they
gave me a full refund out of pity. Learned enough to work 2 dev jobs in Utah,
enough to realize what I really wanted out of life vs. what I thought I
wanted.

Buying a Jeep soon and will be working remotely while roaming North America in
2018. Hobbies include: photography, writing, painting, hiking, design, animal
rescue.

------
cocktailpeanuts
Off topic but that guy tilting his head in the back in the header image is the
highlight of this article.

~~~
AWebOfBrown
Not if image 2 is spelling AJAX as "Ajacks". Can't be sure though.

~~~
throwaway2016a
I really hope that is either:

\- Talking about something else

\- Being ironic

~~~
trowawee
90% of jokes at DBC are programming word play jokes, so...I would not be
surprised to learn they are building a storefront that sells single jacks for
playing jacks.

------
james1071
No surprises here - there is a conflict between making money and providing
high quality education/training.

Turning away customers is bad for business,but essential to keep up standards.

~~~
speedplane
One of the biggest differences between bootcamps and traditional schools is
that bootcamps often measure (and market) their success by job placements.
Most large universities have entirely different incentives, often based on
honors from research programs and large funding grants.

If your goal is to get a good job and you don't have a strong background, then
these bootcamps are a fantastic resource.

------
andrewwharton
I'm going to go with the assumption that the "Ajacks" written on the board in
the second photo is meant to be a pun/joke?

------
werber
I would love to see bootcamps for QA for people who just want to quickly get a
decent job

------
brooklyn_ashey
Another reality check for the boot camps: students are finally getting wise to
some of the issues. A major camp in NYC decided not to offer another web dev
course because enrollment was so low. As the raging issues in tech with
respect to ageism, sexism, and racism get more play, prospective students
think twice before leaping. I can only offer NYC observations, and not an
official study, but employers won't hire much over 35 here. And if you are a
woman or of color to boot--- forget it, its like trying to be a famous actor
in terms of opportunity for you. The bootcamps are more than happy to take the
money of people of color, women, and over age 35 beginners without a word to
newcomers who ask these questions before they enroll- these concerns are
brushed aside. What is worse is that if you look at the employees at several
of these boot camps, the faculty is under 35, and often 95- 100percent white
and male. Often, if there are women employed there, the women are not just
young, but the youngest. Or perhaps they have a woman faculty member, but she
is kept off their website. (specific NYC example- can't name names, but just
look at the boot camps' websites in nyc and you will find the one. - the one
with no women listed as faculty- they do have one woman- they just keep her
from public view on their website) This kind of blatant discrimination looks
very amateur in NYC where companies who have already been sued try to be a bit
more subtle about discriminatory practices) these bootcamps staff themselves
in a mini replica of this industry as a whole- not w an eye toward positive
change re:inclusion. But they preach it all day long. Perhaps they think they
are really helping without taking a good look at themselves. I'm trying to err
on the charitable side. And I'm not saying no one at all hires women or people
of color or people over 40, but nearly all the boot camp founders tend to be
middle aged and then hire staff and faculty who are under 40, white and mostly
male. If asked, I'm sure the words "culture fit" would get uttered. I'm
frustrated at watching too many exceptional programmers in these categories
who have lots of valuable experience get passed over for younger, whiter, and
more male folks w no experience. A former restaurant server with zero teaching
experience/ability/empathy should not be hired as faculty at a bootcamp over a
CS grad w teaching experience who former students love. I was "taught" by such
a person at one of the top bootcamps. He and many others there had no clue how
to teach. Their idea of teaching is to verbally code up a project while a
student listens. He was not an exception - he was the rule there. The lawsuits
are already in the pipeline, and that will provide an official data set soon.
Whoever escapes these will get to move the model forward and hopefully do
something about these issues and drive some positive change- not just give it
lip service.

------
flamedoge
why is it unsustainable?

~~~
jmcgough
Because dozens of bootcamps are churning out tens of thousands of candidates a
year. There's only so many entry level positions to fight over, especially if
they all have essentially the same skill set (full stack web).

~~~
grogenaut
Universities churn out teens of thousands of candidates every year as well.
Actually there are at least a thousand universities in the us. Let's call it
30 cs students at each. That's 30k. Stanford has 574 last year in undergrad /
4

~~~
romanovcode
UNI takes around 3-4 years to complete. Bootcamps are like 12-36 weeks.

People who graduate from UNI actually know some things.

~~~
grogenaut
His point was that thousands of people coming out of bootcamps were saturating
the market. My point is I think the market is bigger than that or bootcamps
wouldn't exist.

~~~
romanovcode
Maybe you are correct but I think that bootcamps are created for attracting
people to spend their money on a premise that they will get payed very good as
programmers.

------
booleandilemma
Really? What about the STEM shortage?

~~~
gaius
There is no STEM shortage and hasn't been for decades. Unemployment for CS
grads in the UK is 14% according to the Graun (other sources have it at only
13%). And these people want to charge you a fortune claiming they can teach
you better than a 3-year degree in a few weeks.

~~~
stale2002
Then how come our salaries are so high in the bay area?

There is certainly a geographic shortage at least, right?

Perhaps those people in the UK need to move to a location where their skills
are more in demand.

~~~
romanovcode
> bay area

> Perhaps those people in the UK need to move to a location

It is very difficult and tedious process to go to work from EU to US. Also,
most EU residents don't even want to live in US.

~~~
varjag
First world problem if there is any.

It's a lot easier than from most of non-EU world: at least you can hop on the
plane for a job interview without fussing with visas.

If one can't be arsed to move there's always an option to remain unemployed.

~~~
romanovcode
The problem is that for a company to justify giving H1B visa the candidate
must be really good.

I'm not so sure that those 13% unemployed are really good.

------
TechNut
I got started in software through the Flatiron School. I spent three months
learning a lot about development in general and iOS development in particular.
I came out of it ready for an apprentice-like level of work: skilled enough to
get paid, best fit for a company offering mentorship.

It was not a three-month CS degree, nor did it pretend to be. Comparing a
person who changed careers as an adult to someone who started studying the
subject in college is disingenuous. Also, comparing a person who needs
guidance, colleagues and to start making money soon to a person who has 6
months or a year to spend learning on their own is similarly suspect. The fact
is that if you came to software development by traditional school or self-
teaching, these programs weren't trying to help people like you. Understand
that people with different backgrounds can still contribute even if they don't
contribute in the way you do.

As for the ability of folks coming out of these programs, it's a bad idea to
equate all bootcamps with each other or all people within a program. A few
years ago, there was a gold rush to this industry, so there will be jokers in
the deck. Still, there are many talented, hard-working people for whom these
programs were the best option. You don't have to hire them, but take them
seriously.

P.S. - Traditional education and self-teaching do not have bulletproof
records, either. I've spoken to lawyers who are disappointed in the ability of
most Ivy League grads they interview. I've also spoken with many folks who
tried to teach themselves software development but never built a full skill
set.

