
Sweden Has a Sub So Deadly the US Navy Hired It to Play Bad Guy (2014) - smacktoward
http://foxtrotalpha.jalopnik.com/sweden-has-a-sub-thats-so-deadly-the-us-navy-hired-it-t-1649695984
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dogma1138
Sweden has a sub so small....

The US wanted to train against attack subs that are much smaller than what
Russia is using since North Korea and Iran were developing small subs that can
be used in effectively what would be suicide missions against US carrier
groups.

Sweden built a small sub because it cannot afford large ones and because it
allows the sub to operate in shallow water and the narrow passes in the
fjords.

Since the US can't ask North Korea to play the red team since they do it in
real life they've rented a Swedish sub as an agressor.

~~~
bjelkeman-again
I don't think the Swedish navy needs a bigger submarine. The use case was only
for defending Swedish territorial water and there wasn't need for a bigger
one.

~~~
csours
Also, Sweden does not need a sub that can travel the world under its own
power.

From the article, a larger ship was used to move the sub from Swedish waters
to the Pacific for these war games.

Nuclear subs can go wherever they want, whenever they want.

For Swedish use, however, the sub will never have to be far from home, so the
tradeoff is worth it for them.

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dosshell
So, a small country develop their own high tech sub, airplane [0] , ships [1],
special modification of one of the most advanced tanks [2], special order
helicopter from EU project, advanced artillery [3] and light tank [4]. And I
probably missed a few other expensive toys.

So how good are their defense? ~1 week will it take to invade Sweden according
to them self... With the help of the militia. [5].

My concern is that they basically just develop expensive military stuff
because they want to feed the industry. A political dance with money.

[0]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saab_JAS_39_Gripen](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saab_JAS_39_Gripen)

[1] [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visby-
class_corvette](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visby-class_corvette)

[2]
[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stridsvagn_122](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stridsvagn_122)

[3]
[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archer_Artillery_System](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archer_Artillery_System)

[4]
[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combat_Vehicle_90](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combat_Vehicle_90)

[5] [https://www.svd.se/forsvar-med-tidsgrans](https://www.svd.se/forsvar-med-
tidsgrans) (swedish)

~~~
msh
Well, in the article you refers to in link 5 I think between the lines they
are talking about russia, I dont think any small country can withstand a
attack by a former super power for very long no matter their army bt it might
serve them well to have a good defence for deterance.

I dont see who else in the neighborhood would and could attack sweden in all
seriousness.

~~~
nickpinkston
Finland begs to differ:

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winter_War](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winter_War)

~~~
pm90
In all fairness, that was before the advent of modern weaponry, including
precision guided munitions, cruise missiles etc. I highly doubt, for instance,
Finnish supply chains would survive a sustained attack by Russia today.

~~~
nickpinkston
Afghanistan begs to differ :-)

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_in_Afghanistan_(2001%E2%80...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_in_Afghanistan_\(2001%E2%80%932014\))

~~~
pm90
The US invaded Afghanistan in a matter of months. What is being questioned
here is not the ability of Russia to hold control over Finland, but whether it
could quickly topple its Sovereign government, which it couldn't do in the
linked war.

~~~
nickpinkston
They invaded, but that's not "winning".

Plenty of people died and the US didn't really accomplish very much on the
ground. Karzai has very weak control and his enemies multiply.

Vietnam could also be used - they just destroyed us with attrition and a
culture that had acceptance of heavy losses.

Fancy weapons aren't a panacea - "war is politics by other means" \- the
people in the end are all that matter.

~~~
pm90
Whoever talked about winning? Do you have a point you want to make or do you
just want to have the last word? I have specifically stated that the question
was not whether the war was won, but whether an invading military could
quickly topple the country and gain control over it.

The Vietnam war was never fought as a war of invasion, but rather one of
propping up an anti-communist ally. They are not the same.

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bungle
CIA and Pentagon forced Finland to cancel this:
[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mir_(submersible)](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mir_\(submersible\))
(too good submarine)

~~~
valuearb
it's wasn't the submersible, which only had extremely limited military uses,
it was the transfer of advanced technology to the USSR.

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exabrial
Not mentioned in the title, but Sweden thinks they have surrounded an enemy
sub in their territorial waters! Pretty crazy.

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dogma1138
Russian subs patrol those waters all the time they like pushing boundaries
it's nothing new really.

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gech
These kinds of activities are really immature for adults regardless of country

~~~
synicalx
Assessing the reaction and capabilities of a country you might one day be at
war against? Seems fairly sane to me even though I don't particularly like
Russia nor do I want them to go to war with anyone.

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willvarfar
Here's a nice article on Air-Independent-Propulsion (AIP) submarines:
[http://www.hisutton.com/World%20survey%20of%20AIP%20submarin...](http://www.hisutton.com/World%20survey%20of%20AIP%20submarines.html)

The Swedish Gotland class was the world's first purpose-built AIP sub.

~~~
dogma1138
It wasn't it's was the first and I think only subs that use a Stirling engine
based AIP that runs on LOX but AIPs were present in subs since WW2.

~~~
valuearb
Yes, the first operational was a german uboat only launched a few weeks before
end of WWII.

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Theodores
I wonder what the shift arrangement is for the crew of 24. Do they have some
laws in Sweden about working hours so that the vessel only needs six crew but
has a staff of 24 to cover all shifts and weekends?

If everything could be automated to video-game easy so that you didn't need
someone to chuck more rods in the nuclear reactor or do things with bilge
pumps, what would be the minimum complement for a submarine that played the
deterrent role, lurking under the waves for months at a time?

The problem (allegedly) with submarines is remote control drone submarines
that are clever enough to know how to communicate. Apparently it is possible
to program one submarine to follow another without having to carry 24 people
plus their lunches, dinners and oxygen supply. There is a danger that mutually
assured destruction assured by submarines with nuclear weapons could end.

~~~
KC8ZKF
Probably something like 3 watch sections of 8 sailors, with additional working
hours off-watch. (I don't know why anybody would want a weekend off aboard
that bitty-little boat anyway.) At least in 'merica, the military is exempt
from labor laws.

 _Choose your rate, choose your fate._

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iambateman
Is there any requirement to disclose possession of a submarine like this? If
it were I, as a military commander, I would rather enjoy having a few of these
lurk until I had to play my had.

then again, IANAGeneral ;)

~~~
synicalx
Sub's do sort of do that already to some extent, their whereabouts is not
normally a matter of public record - they could be lurking anywhere.

If you were ordering submarines around you'd more likely be an Admiral :P

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Guyag
Did anyone else think that the language used in this article was really
hyperbolic and over-dramatic? Loads of unnecessary superlatives I thought.

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sargun
They mention that the submarine uses liquid oxygen. How are they storing this
cryogenic liquid, and compressing it? I imagine that would take a ridiculous
amount of equipment, and power in the first place?

~~~
csours
I imagine that it is topped up by either a tender ship or at port.

This sub was shipped to the Pacific in another ship for the war games,
indicating that it is not practical for it to travel that far on its own.

