
The Food Lab: The Science of No-Knead Dough (2011) - Tomte
http://www.seriouseats.com/2011/06/the-food-lab-the-science-of-no-knead-dough.html
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occamrazor
The thermodynamic argument is wrong. The radiant energy only depends on the
temperature of the enclosure, not on its size. For example, if the diameter of
the oven doubles, then each surface​ unit of the oven transfers energy to the
dough at a rate 4 times slower, but there are 4 times as many surface units.
The result is that the total energy flow dies not change.

~~~
djrogers
I don't believe you're characterizing his thermodynamic explanation accurately
- he's simply pointing out that the _distance_ from the source of thermal
radiation matters. Since radiant energy follows the inverse square law, this
makes perfect sense.

~~~
ouid
if there were exactly one point source of radiation it would matter, but there
isn't. You have to integrate the cumulative radiation from all the points on
the surface. The number of points in a subtended angle goes up as the square
of the distance from the bread, and each points' contribution is the inverse
square of that distance. This is true uniformly over any subtended arc, so the
shape can't matter either. The result only depends on the emissivity of the
material.

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joeblubaugh
Another pretty-easy variation to this are the "overnight" and "Saturday"
recipes in Flour Water Salt Yeast.

Very slight kneading required, but not much. Easy cleanup, and better crumb
than the no-knead recipes in my experience.

[http://www.karenskitchenstories.com/2013/09/overnight-
white-...](http://www.karenskitchenstories.com/2013/09/overnight-white-
bread.html)

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car
Turns out that steam baking is making a huge difference in the quality and
taste of bread. That's why a dutch oven is required when baking in a normal
oven.

I recently got a steam capable combi oven from the Tovala Kickstarter project
(a YC company), and it makes awesome bread, even from something as simple and
cheap as Trader Joe's pizza dough.

This it what it looks like (not my tweet):
[https://twitter.com/AvidanRoss/status/861346625859371008](https://twitter.com/AvidanRoss/status/861346625859371008)

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flycaliguy
I've been making this overnight style bread for years and people love it. I've
probably told guests to "Google country bread city bread" 30 times.

[http://chefmichaelsmith.com/recipe/country-bread-city-
bread/](http://chefmichaelsmith.com/recipe/country-bread-city-bread/)

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pfooti
Getting steam in with your dough is a big deal. Instead of using the dutch
oven to bake my loaves, I have a baking steel for high heat transfer and bake
under a stainless steel bowl. The bowl doesn't have the thermal mass that a
dutch oven does, but it's a lot easier to put a loaf in the oven, since you're
not manipulating a 450F cast iron pot, but instead just peeling the loaf onto
the baking steel. The bowl keeps a lot of moisture trapped close to the loaf
(sometimes, if I'm feeling frisky I'll spray some extra water in on as I put
the whole thing together).

What I've found is that the retained moisture inside the bowl setup helps a
lot, but it's also relatively easy to burn the bottom of the loaf, as the
baking steel can hold a _lot_ of heat (I also have the problem of an older
oven with a pretty wide swing in thermostat tolerances)

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Calcite
I've been baking a variant of this recipe for several years now. It's the best
bread I've made at home hands down. If you have a dutch oven (even a large
cookie tray and upside down stainless steel bowl will do the trick), do try
it!

~~~
reaktion
I've made this bread a few times with great success, too! I can advocate for
the steel bowl method, as I've never owned a proper dutch oven.

~~~
keithpeter
I'll try it with a stainless steel stock pot with steel lid - would anyone
suggest any form if 'seasoning' of the steel?

And has anyone tried a sourdough version of this recipe? I have a pretty
cheerful sourdough going at present.

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noonespecial
I think rather than "radiant energy" the dutch oven (being pre-heated) acts
like a "thermal capacitor" because of its mass. It discharges a large amount
of heat into the dough very quickly once its dropped into the confined space.
The lid trapping the humidity in that tiny space does the rest.

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wodenokoto
The thing that makes kneading annoying is the flour on the counter and all the
little pieces of dough left in the mixing bowl when taking the dough out on
the table. So in a sense, this doesn't solve the problem of kneading for me.

Will I get a better bread if I knead this recipe?

~~~
magic_beans
You will get a different bread.

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kwillets
This is like a pre-ferment rather than an actual dough. It's overproofed --
you can see through the crumb, and it has a wet, gelatinous texture due to the
starch all breaking down.

And as others have noted physics knowledge is lacking.

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heuermh
Some folks local to Minneapolis have had a good run with their no-knead recipe

[https://artisanbreadinfive.com/](https://artisanbreadinfive.com/)

The basic sourdough recipe makes a loaf with a great crust and good crumb,
although I find it a bit weepy, in that it doesn't hold its shape too well
because the dough is so wet.

The kids love the olive oil dough for pizzas and breadsticks.

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sevensor
I've been baking a lot of bread lately (pushing 80 lbs of flour this year),
but I haven't tried these no-knead recipes yet. My kids don't like a really
assertive crust, and peanut butter falls right through a wide-open crumb, so
I'm going to stick to drier, denser loaves for the time being. Nonetheless,
I'm interested! Maybe I'll try a one-off loaf just to see how it turns out.

~~~
exhilaration
Can you give me a good bread recipe with a soft crust? We've tried these no-
knead recipes and the crust has always come out too hard -- that's turned us
off from baking our own bread.

~~~
sevensor
For my money, kneading is part of the fun. Within reason anyhow. Like the
sibling comment says, add fat. I use butter or olive oil. It's hard to go
wrong when supermarket bread is your baseline. Pretty much any loaf you bake
is better (the occasional inedible experiment notwithstanding.) Here's my
approach. Let's call it...

Four Kids Bread -- The Bread You Make When You Have Four Kids And Can't Be
Bothered To Do Anything Fancy

Step 1: Mix some flour, maybe three cups, with an equal amount of water and
maybe a teaspoonful of yeast and a little less than a teaspoonful of salt.
This makes a very wet mix. Put it in a big bowl and cover with plastic wrap.

Step 2: Find a cool part of your living space and let it sit there. Possibly
forget that you started bread.

Step 3: A day or three later, whenever you get the chance, remember that you
started bread. Come back to it. It smells funky, but there's no fuzz on it so
it's probably OK.

Step 4: Add some fat. Half a stick of melted butter, or a couple tablespoons
of olive oil. Stir.

Step 5: Add a little flour and stir, continuing to add more until stirring
becomes tiresome. Then put some flour on a flat surface and turn the dough out
onto it. Sprinkle some more flour on top. Knead the dough until it stops being
fun. Add more flour if it sticks to your hands or the surface.

Step 6: Shape it into a cylinder, more or less and put on an oiled baking
sheet. Cover and let sit until it looks bigger. Or not. If you don't you'll
have a denser loaf. Possibly very dense. But maybe you're in a hurry.

Step 7: Preheat an oven to whatever seems hot enough. 375? Ovens vary.

Step 8: Bake until it's done. I know they say to use a thermometer, but I
don't have one so I thump the bread and if it sounds hollow, it's done. Hasn't
failed me.

Looks like a lot of steps, but it's really minimal effort. Cheaper and way
better than American supermarket bread.

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f2f
I make no-knead at least twice a week at home. it's all we eat in terms of
bread. i don't bake anything else, just bread (and pizza using the same
dough). it has not failed me in 5 years.

