
Illegal Pot Grows in America's Public Forests Are Poisoning Wildlife and Water - pseudolus
https://www.npr.org/2019/11/12/773122043/illegal-pot-grows-in-americas-public-forests-are-poisoning-wildlife-and-water
======
eyegor
_> carbofuran, an insecticide banned by the E.P.A for all legal purposes.
Carbofuran is produced in the U.S. by Pennsylvania-based FMC Corp, which
exports the product to Mexico, India and other nations. The EU, Canada and
Brazil have full bans on carbofuran_

The fact that the epa doesn't have the authority to shut down production of
this stuff is insane. Most things that are banned multinationally also face
production bans for obvious reasons.

~~~
microcolonel
> _The fact that the epa doesn 't have the authority to shut down production
> of this stuff is insane._

How? It's not even anywhere near in their purview.

> _Most things that are banned multinationally also face production bans for
> obvious reasons._

The chemical is also produced _in Mexico_ (AFAIK by Viakem and Pyosa) and
Brazil (by FMC Quimica do Brasil), and elsewhere. It is imported illegally
from outside the country for these ops as far as I'm aware, so whether FMC
Corp is producing it or not is immaterial to its availability in the U.S. for
these ops.

~~~
ianhawes
Regardless, it should not be manufactured here in the US if it's not even
legal to use it in the US. This reeks of lobbying efforts by FMC Corp.

~~~
snagglegaggle
Ehh, I think that is a dangerous view. It could be used for other purposes,
like as an intermediate reactant or for research. Similar thinking is why it
is so hard to conduct chemistry or microbiology research as a normal person.
Obviously dangerous things can't be sold to plebs and everything with a
chemical formula is dangerous.

Consider that many people wish to ban animal cruelty -- sounds fine, except
these laws tend to boil down to "every animal must be treated as a pet" even
though that is not an economical proposition for the vast majority of animals
that exist. Even if you just ban "killing puppies" now dog breeding is
essentially illegal as the most effective way is to kill the young you don't
want.

~~~
klyrs
> Even if you just ban "killing puppies" now dog breeding is essentially
> illegal as the most effective way is to kill the young you don't want.

That really wouldn't be such a bad thing, IMO. Dog (and cat) breeders, by and
large, exist to produce animals to maximize certain aesthetic norms, often to
the detriment of their health. Given how many unwanted animals are killed in
shelters each year, it wouldn't be such a bad thing to limit their production
a bit

~~~
snagglegaggle
I agree that a lot of show breeds are not humane endeavors but there are lots
of working breeds as well. Making it illegal to "kill puppies" with no
exception means the breeds we have will be more or less the breeds we will
have for thousands of years to come.

I write these posts because there is a lot of sentiment here and elsewhere
that is frankly anti-science. In direct relation to the example, anti-GMO
advocates _and the FDA_ have strongly resisted the DNA modification of dog
breeds and other nonconsumable organisms so frequent litters and culling is
all that is left. Looking further back you see the same thing with chemistry
and biology kits, with electronics kits, etc; the end result being if you do
anything more than go home to watch TV or play golf you are assumed to have
some fantastically dangerous hobby that gives babies cancer.

------
JulianMorrison
Not emphasised in this article: US corporations are making these poisons that
cannot be sold in the USA or EU and exporting them to poor countries. From
which they are returning in the hands of criminal gangs.

Have you considered banning this shit, America?

~~~
pastor_elm
Carbofuran is not technically banned in the US. Its use on foods is banned,
making it a de facto ban for large scale agriculture.

>Traces of the pesticide carbofuran can no longer remain on food sold in the
United States, whether domestic or imported, the U.S. Environmental Protection
Agency announced today.

[http://www.ens-newswire.com/ens/may2009/2009-05-11-093.asp](http://www.ens-
newswire.com/ens/may2009/2009-05-11-093.asp)

You can actually buy it right here:

[https://www.chemservice.com/carbofuran-n-11405-250mg.html](https://www.chemservice.com/carbofuran-n-11405-250mg.html)

~~~
jakobegger
This article is a good argument that it should be banned.

Also, the US has a lot of influence. They could get chemicals outlawed in
other countries if they really wanted to. I mean, they got the whole world to
adopt biometric passports, and they managed to get banks worldwide to agree to
their reporting requirements.

But when it's about dangerous chemicals, they throw their hands in the air.
Presumably because the industry needs some place to buy their poisons.

~~~
JulianMorrison
Industry could just make something else. There's a cold callousness to trading
off human lives against mere _sunk costs_.

------
hourislate
California really needs to get a grip on the Legal Market of Marijuana. The
State Governments effort to extract as much money as it can from legitimate
businesses (growers/dispensaries) has made the cost of buying and selling so
costly that the illegal market is 3 times the size of the legal one. These
legitimate businesses are going broke, do to the high cost of regulation and
taxes. Until the state government can control their appetite for gouging the
industry and creating as much red tape as they can, they encourage the illegal
operation of these cartel grow ops.

~~~
KingMachiavelli
The issue goes far beyond the taxes. Last I read, even without taxes/overhead
California produces far more cannabis than it's domestic market can consume.
The only long term solutions seem to be; crack down on illegal growers or wait
out until it's legal at the federal level and interstate commerce is allowed.
Cracking down on illegal growers seems unsavory since the government was
looking the other way for decades while it was completely illegal plus (my
theory at least) the tax revenues on (one day) being the largest producer of
cannabis in the US are too appetizing to warrant constricting the industry.

~~~
Melting_Harps
Actually, the bigger issue is Banking.

If most businesses had to deal with the myriad of weekly/monthly legal changes
and expenses that those grower/dispensary owners do most would just pack it up
and exit, add to that they have no real choice in banking and remain largely a
cash based business.

The thing is, as we have seen with Canada, even if it is legalized at the
Federal Level access to banking will still not be a sure thing. Most
dispensaries still cannot have normal bank accounts to pay vendors/staff/bills
etc... this kills their productivity.

Honestly, their is no cure-all to it, unless you see a massive resurgence in
community based gardens specifically for cannabis, which would be my personal
ideal situation.

But, Career politicians backed it despite having a very good Medical system in
place, in order to get as much tax revenue from what was otherwise an
illegally sourced substance.

If anything, I think they'll continue to tax more as they will have to pay for
'task forces' to monitor and stomp out these 'illegal' grows. Businesses will
have to continue to add Value Added services to compensate for the added
expenses and you'll have am eventual race to the bottom and consolidation
(like in Colorado) of Market Share from a handful of players/cartel which may
fall into the hands of a Phillip Morris type conglomerate--think juul vape.

CA had proposed a novel system in place that would, on paper anyhow, protect
the Mom and Pop shops; but the taxes and regulatory framework and legal
landscape is not hospitable to a small business venture unless you have
substantial financial backing anymore.

I was against recreational being legalized for that reason in CA, and I
preferred it stay Medical only. It wasn't a perfect system, but it allowed for
competition with existing and mature legal framework enabled by the Compassion
Act in 1996. The only thing it seemed to offer was some degree of protection
from the DEA raiding a legal and compliant business, but I'm doubting this may
be the case anymore as these task forces will need something to do to justify
their existence.

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dillonmckay
_" These growers are trying undercut the legal market by about 50 percent and
of course a lot of the product that they're growing is filled with these
poisons," McIntryre says, "and it's likely finding its way into the market in
various forms - flower, oils and vape pens."_

The legal market in California is too expensive (due to taxation) and this is
a symptom.

California’s illegal market prices are equivalent to legal prices in Colorado.

~~~
jstanley
If the overhead of keeping an entire real-world manufacture & sales operation
secret over the long-term is less than the overhead of simply paying taxes,
then something is seriously wrong with the taxes.

~~~
callmeal
If by "real-world manufacture & sales operation" you mean an operation where
there can be no guarantees of the quality of ingredients and
processing/storage, you would be right.

Like some pesticides or mold with your bud? How about some vitamin e in your
vape juice? Those taxes pay for something, and as a consumer I want to know
I'm getting what I paid for and nothing more.

We will see a lot these articles ranting against California taxes in the lead
up to the elections by the conservative media because they are beginning to
hate how much better the state does towards its residents with funding to
provide services. Don't forget that almost all the social progress we're
seeing in this country is from that state.

~~~
thrower123
California sure can wag the rest of the dog.

> how much better the state does towards its residents with funding to provide
> service

This is surely a joke, however, right?

------
Merrill
California now has the biggest legal marijuana market in the world. Its black
market is even bigger

>“The illegal market is competitive because legal marijuana is so expensive to
produce under Prop. 64,” said Dale Gieringer, director of Cal NORML, which
supported the initiative though it preferred other regulations.

[https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2019-08-14/californ...](https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2019-08-14/californias-
biggest-legal-marijuana-market)

~~~
dillonmckay
$60 for 3.54g.

~~~
dopamean
50-60 for an eighth is what I've paid my entire life living in NY,
Philadelphia, and Orlando. I moved to Texas a few years ago and now have a
regular guy who sells eighths for 40. It's the lowest I've ever paid for high
grade bud. I thought I was getting a deal but apparently this is normal?

~~~
peller
That's pretty normal for black-market prices. But at least in Colorado, you
can get an ounce of top shelf for $120-$140 after taxes (which are 25%).
Eighths go for $20-$30. Street prices are even cheaper, but unless you know
the grower personally, you obviously don't really know what you're getting.

~~~
dopamean
Wow. I had no idea.

------
pchristensen
Joe Rogan interviewed John Nores, the ranger that first discovered these grows
in the Bay Area and developed a lot of the detection and remediation efforts:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=avZpWVEpiV8](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=avZpWVEpiV8)

~~~
justjash
Steve Rinella also talks to him in an episode of his MeatEater podcast. Its a
good listen if you have some time to kill. Episode #179 if anyone is
interested.

~~~
drone
Agreed, that was a great episode. Here's a direct link for those interested:
[https://www.themeateater.com/listen/meateater/ep-179-the-
wee...](https://www.themeateater.com/listen/meateater/ep-179-the-weed-warden)

------
souterrain
The clickbait headline might more accurately read “Toxic pesticides and
chemicals are poisoning wildlife and water in America’s public forests.”

~~~
callmeal
Or an even better one: “American manufactured Toxic pesticides and chemicals
are poisoning wildlife and water in America’s public forests.”

~~~
manicdee
Banned pesticides manufactured by FMC in Pennsylvania are poisoning public
forests, wildlife and black market pot in the USA.

------
lacker
It seems like the taxes on marijuana are too high. Legal marijuana has taken
over about a quarter of the market, which is great because it means a quarter
less illegal operations like these. But the legal producers could just put
these guys out of business if they were allowed to.

Anecdotally, taxes approximately double the cost of marijuana in California.
There's some benefit in taxing things that are bad for people, because you
discourage the behavior, but it seems like wiping out organized crime by
lowering taxes on the legal market here would be a bigger benefit.

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mikece
Does this mean that "Ecologically Ethical Cannabis" could be a premium
offering and that pot lacking such certification could become despised like
"blood diamonds?"

~~~
mikestew
What do you think I'm buying now? WA tags that stuff from grower to retail,
and I'm pretty confident that the local growers aren't doing it out in the
North Cascades someplace. I would think, and maybe I'm wrong, that if some
well-known brand were found buying weed from someone dowsing it in pesticides
in the forest, they'd lose a lot of customers and the state would be swooping
in.

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mistrial9
this article is placed in the public view right AFTER well-publicized, large-
scale enforcement efforts. The cynical view is that this article names a long-
term problem in the public venue as a pre-cursor to yet another budget "ask"..
and the budgets are already very, very large.. a working tech person would be
shocked at the stability of money flowing to a small'ish group of uniformed
people and their contractors.

~~~
driverdan
I downvoted you because that's not how the US Forest Service works. Their
enforcement budgets are far too small. Their police force is internal, not
contracted out. They definitely need more money for enforcement.

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8bitsrule
As opposed to, say, the centuries of poisoning of US forests by legal mining
and logging operations? 'Illegal pot grows' isn't the problem, the Earth's
being doing 'pot grows' for millions of years. OTOH,'illegal pot grows' are
now a primary worry for a new 'industry' of legal pot-growers.

Now that NPR's gotten so commercial (listened to Science Friday lately?)
should we expect more of this kind of spin? Sad, NPR, sad.

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m-p-3
Sounds like a good reason to give more power to EPA to act on these polluters,
and to properly legalize the stuff and get rid of another reason to hide the
production.

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Braggadocious
One more reason for me to stop smoking pot.

------
ycombonator
Fruits of unmonitored southern border.

