
Vainglory vs. Clash Royale, and the future of “hardcore” games on mobile - elemeno
http://andreaspapathanasis.blogspot.com/2016/01/vainglory-vs-clash-royale-and-future-of.html
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sebular
In terms of multiplayer, this guy's completely right. Games need to cater to
short attention spans, limited bandwidth, and one-thumb interaction (I would
also add async gameplay to the list of things that should be embraced). I
don't think this article is saying anything profound, but it certainly isn't
wrong.

In terms of single player games, I don't think the same logic applies, and in
my opinion we've gone way too far in the "short attention span" direction. As
long as a game makes it easy to save and resume, immersive hours-long
experiences with detailed graphics can be really fun to consume in bite-sized
pieces. Nintendo's been doing it for decades with their portable devices
(Zelda, Mario, Pokemon, Metroid), and it's clearly a successful approach.

It's a shame that smartphones are orders of magnitude more powerful than the
Game Boy, yet mobile app stores are overflowing with single-level "infinite
churn" games that amount to Tetris with micropayments.

~~~
dexwiz
Video games have caught up with the rest of the common media in terms of
publishing for profit. Most TV and movies (not even counting adult films) are
completely garbage. They are built around formulas that are known to work so
people make money. The indie games movement railed against this, but most of
them were on par with art student films quality wise.

That's not to say that they are no good games or TV anymore. But they are few
and far between. They take vision, risk, and a bit of money. Also right now
they are harder to find. I think if game producers used their names like movie
directors it may help. But right now its often just the studio name. Which
leads to situations where a studio makes a great game, people learn their
name, a publisher injects a lot of cash/people, the core team leaves, and
their next game is a bloated mess. If people knew the core team's name, or
even just their leader's name, it would help the general populace follow the
person to their next project.

~~~
TulliusCicero
We're in a TV golden age, man. There are more good TV series on than probably
any other time in history.

~~~
dexwiz
There is a lot of good TV. But there is also 1000 channels of crap.

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minimaxir
Another game that is "hardcore" on mobile is Hearthstone. While that may not
necessarily qualify for comparison to Vainglory/Clash Royale since it's both
desktop and mobile, the UI ("physical" board) and game design (short turn
limits, automatic resource allocation, RNG vs. manual card selection) are both
highly optimized for playing on mobile devices.

Although as a counterpoint, Blizzard is taking atypical monetization
strategies with Hearthstone that may be causing problems. It is freemium as
most games are nowadays, but _very_ expensive to make a competitive deck with
required cards, with _zero_ catchup mechanics (a new feature with freemium
games to provide retention). Blizzard is also refusing to balance cards which
promote stagnant gameplay, which makes the game incredibly stale.
([https://www.reddit.com/r/hearthstone/comments/4207ye/the_we_...](https://www.reddit.com/r/hearthstone/comments/4207ye/the_we_wont_balance_existing_cards_attitude_will/))

And let's not get started over the 9 deck slots issue.

~~~
bobbyi_settv
They aren't rebalancing cards because the game is currently quite well
balanced. Constantly making arbitrary changes so that things are different for
the sake of being different is exactly what you don't do in a "hardcore"
competitive activity.

You don't see the NBA declaring that this week 3 pointers are worth 5 points
because casual fans find it "stale" to see the same rules and strategies week
after week.

~~~
minimaxir
At the least, cards that are unused and make no sense to use would be more
interesting with buffs. (The latest expansion marks the first instance where a
card [Magma Rager] was made strictly inferior)

Blizzard has done this approach with Diablo III patches (giving new
functionality to underused builds) and it has breathed new life into the game.

~~~
bobbyi_settv
Cards which "make no sense" in the current decks often end up seeing play a
few months later as the meta shifts. For example, Twisting Nether and Lava
Shock are currently run in competitive decks (without having been buffed),
even though they were considered unplayable and badly in need of buffs not
that long ago.

If they take the worst cards and give them a small buff, they will still see
no constructed play and everyone's time is wasted. If they aim for actually
making them constructed quality, they need to do as much balancing and testing
work as they would do for new cards to avoid them being overpowered, in which
case they might as well spend that time developing new cards.

FWIW, "strictly better" cards existed before Magma Rager, for example Dr Boom
is very popular and is strictly better than War Golem.

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popeshoe
As a big PC gamer I've basically abandoned mobile gaming as it feels like
everything out there is trying to get my money by means ranging from insidious
to annoying. This is compounded by the fact that browsing the google play
games store is a showcase of shamelessness where different developers are
releasing essentially identical clones of whatever's popular, it's kind of
depressing.

The only mobile games I can bring myself to recommend are Andoku Sudoku, The
little crane that could, and crossy road (which even includes monetisation
schemes without feeling intensely annoying).

Suggestions for others would be appreciated

~~~
abeger
Here's a list of good mobile games off the top of my head. None of these
require in-app purchases if they even have them:

You Must Build a Boat, The Executive, Out There, Monument Valley, Hitman GO,
Lara Croft GO, DEVICE 6, The Room (and sequels), Prune, Lifeline (this one's
great because it would only work in mobile), Threes!

If you're looking for good mobile recommendations, I'd point you at
[http://toucharcade.com](http://toucharcade.com). They do iOS reviews, but a
good chunk of the games also release for Android these days.

~~~
moomin
I'm going to add Twenty to this list. Small amount of money to unlock all the
modes, but the free mode is amazing anyway.

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lectrick
Is anyone else a person who loves games but is disgusted by Clash of Clans
(and anything else that uses any business model invented by Farmville)?

~~~
epmatsw
I actually quite like Boom Beach, and to a lesser extent, Clash. Without
having spent a dollar, I've easily spent more time and gotten more enjoyment
out of them than Fallout 4, Just Cause 3, and Dragon Age Inquisition, the 3
AAA titles I've bought in the past year. Sure you can pay to get ahead, but
the games stand alone well enough for midlevel players without doing so.

~~~
lectrick
Might I recommend Witcher 3 (amazing!) and Metal Gear Solid: The Phantom Pain,
both of which I enjoyed (slightly) more than FO4 (sadly) and DA:I. They are
both also more "mature" games (and TPP is set in 1980's Afghanistan and allows
you to collect just-off-chart hits from the 80's to play on your in-game
Walkman, which I found rather cool). (I haven't tried JC3 yet, I got halfway
through JC2 and then kinda dropped it.)

Now I'm afraid to try Boom Beach lol

~~~
epmatsw
I'm waiting on a Steam sale for The Witcher 3, although I was never really
able to get into the first one. I'll look into TPP. JC3 I only bought
recently, but it feels as fun as the second one. You've really just got to
treat it like a pretty sandbox where you can smash vehicles and explosives
together.

I think the reason I've not put as much time into games the past year is that
it's just hard to find a ~3 hour chunk to play through a questline. Versus
Boom Beach where I can pop on, smack talk my group of friends, attack the
daily boss a couple of times, and be done in 15 minutes.

~~~
lectrick
I could not get into Witcher 1 OR 2.

Witcher 3 is as different from 1 and 2 as Assassins' Creed 2 was different
from Assassins' Creed 1. I recommend it

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LoSboccacc
Conflicted. I'm a gamer and I'd love me some more good games like starbase
orion, but eventually if I have more than five minutes of time to kill or need
some stress relief I'm usually within reach of a computer.

I'd like more serious games, but anything that's not consumable in tiny bits
(say, like Out There or Grand Prix Story) I'm not gonna play, not because I
don't want to, but because I've so much better gaming platform to play on
games and those games will never have a chance to work on mobile because
complexity (From The Depths) scale (War Thunder) or user interface (Kerbal
Space Program, any builder like StarMade really)

~~~
pc86
I feel the same way. The only game I play regularly on my phone is a racing
game where I can open it up, race a few laps and shut it does in the span of 5
minutes. I did so last night waiting for my PS3 to update.

If I've got 30 minutes and feel like playing a game I will probably end up
walking over to my office and playing JC3 for a bit.

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osi
I think there are various definitions of "mobile".

Mobile, for me (as a Vainglory player since the launch in the US), means I can
play anywhere. Not that I need to be able to play a game in 5 minutes while
taking a dump.

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osi
(also, article author works on Clash of Clans)

~~~
minimaxir
Used to.
[https://twitter.com/aPapathanasis](https://twitter.com/aPapathanasis)

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nlh
What an odd analysis, and I basically entirely disagree.

I picked up Vainglory when I got my iPad Air 2 and have absolutely fallen in
love with the game for almost ALL of the reasons that the author dismisses it.

Background: I'm nowhere near a hardcore gamer and I never played LoL or DoTA,
so I'm a newbie to MOBAs.

But I think Vainglory is fantastic. When I gush about it to friends, the two
things I bring up are:

1) The game adapts to touch beautifully. I've always found that wildly
clicking the mouse while scrolling with your other hand is awkward in these
sorts of games. Being able to physically direct your character with your
fingers gives the game a much more intimate feel. You feel connected to the
match.

2) The 20-30 minute play time is perfect! So many PC games require this multi-
hour-long commitment that I was never really able to give. But knowing I can
sit down and play a full (exciting) Vainglory match in 20 minutes is easy. The
pacing is perfect - you get to experience all stages of hero development from
weak to strong in what I think most people would consider to be a very
reasonable amount of time.

Anyway, I just think this guy is off-base.

(And if any HNers want to play some Vainglory with me / form a team / start a
guild, let me know! :)

~~~
HelloMcFly
On your point #2, I disagree that a 20+ minute playtime is perfect for mobile
devices. That just seems like too big a time commitment for me if I'm
interacting with my phone; perhaps it is different with a tablet, but at that
point it just feels like a PC game on your counter. I also don't know which PC
games you're playing that require multi-hour commitments, but the only one
that comes to mind for me is Civ5. Everything else I play, I play small
chunks, and a given "match" requires no more than 30 minutes at the most. I
don't play LoL or Starcraft II, but do play SMiTE and Company of Heroes II.

~~~
invalidOrTaken
Never had the 50-min CoH2 game? I _loved_ that game, but I don't think I can
take the stress anymore, ha.

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Geee
OT, but Supercell's business model is certainly interesting. They make a lot
of games in independent teams, and 'soft-launch' only the best of them. If the
games don't meet the goals (whatever they are), they are canceled. There are
now a handful of games that have been canceled after soft-launch. I think
Clash Royale will pass the test (having played it), and will easily hit top 10
in global most grossing list.

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cthalupa
I'm confused. The author is talking about "hardcore" gaming, but then comments
about the time commitment being too high.

By definition, isn't extended time commitments part and parcel with hardcore
gaming? A hardcore MMO player is one who spends quite a bit of time raiding or
PVPing - not one that logs on for a few minutes a day to do their daily quests
or maybe level an alt.

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colin_jack
To me big problem with Vainglory is not that the matches are long, its that
your locked into the matches.

Quite often within minutes of starting match you find out your team-mates have
no interest in playing strategically or are actively trolling you. At that
point you can be pretty sure the match won't be fun and you'll lose.

However the game expects you to keep playing for the next 20-30 minutes till
your team inevitably loses. I know eventually you can trigger a surrender vote
but it didn't seem like they were ever successful.

