

Why 37signals is falling into obsolescence - bdclimber14
http://www.seancoleman.net/post/3052050668/why-37signals-is-falling-into-obsolescence

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washingtondc
While a mobile app can certainly deliver a rich user experience, the
availability of a standard, universally supported platform (read: a browser)
is a more sustainable approach to application deployment.

We've been down this road before. In the pre-browser era, desktop application
were king, but at a high cost to IT departments as well as end-users. The same
game is being played out on mobile platforms now.

From a business perspective, do you really want to support multiple
development efforts for each and every mobile platform? Will it be worth it in
the long run?

The advantages of the mobile app platform must be balanced with the cost and
maintenance overhead as well. Give me a great browser platform, and I'll
gladly take its shortcomings over the long-term sustainment costs of a
dedicated mobile app.

~~~
bdclimber14
As a customer though, what would you prefer? That was my main point is that
the customer demand is really heavy on native apps.

Evernote is an example of a successful startup that has native apps for every
major platform, and they consider it a strategic decision.

~~~
shantanubala
Only 37Signals is a B2B company that has a lot of customers that are
developers. They have an API. Their source of income is their subscription and
not apps for native platforms.

In other words, many of their customers who want a native app can scratch
their own itch pretty easily, and 37Signals can cut down their own development
efforts and focus on making their platform better.

The reason Evernote has apps for every platform is simple: that's the only
thing they have going for them. Their interface isn't the best, and there are
tons of other ways to save notes. They just happen to have really good cross-
device integration. Other note-taking tools have users for different reasons.

I agree with 37Signals. App Stores are an obsolete concept that are only
making a comeback because we have a new wave of devices without a solid set of
mature cross-platform development tools.

EDIT: In other words, 37Signals wants to differentiate themselves from other
applications in more unique ways than just "works natively on every device."

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rguzman
Having only a mobile web version isn't necessarily obsolete.

The current demand for native apps on mobile devices stems from the fact that
it is easier to get high quality user experience on the native apps than on
mobile web browsers. This was true of desktop apps, too, 5-10 years ago.
However, web-apps offer a host of other advantages and so long the UX can be
brought up to a decent quality, I'd take a mobile web-app over a native app
that I have to go find and install for the same reasons I prefer web apps to
desktop apps (both to use and to create).

So, 37s's decision to do a mobile web-app is either obsolete or visionary. I'd
bet on the latter.

~~~
TomOfTTB
It always amazes me that people don't see we're repeating desktop history.

Look back to when desktop apps were the norm. People eventually realized it
was counter intuitive to write the same program 5 times for 5 different
platforms so they started moving to frameworks (Java/.Net). Then as the web
gained the power to host comparable apps people started moving to the web.

It was a natural progression of societal knowledge based on trial and error.

So why are we now making the same mistakes on mobile platforms? Especially
since web apps can already match the functionality needed by 99% of the
applications out there? Seems a little silly

~~~
redrobot5050
That 1% still covers:

Access to the device's GPS. Access to the devices Accelerometer. Hardware
Accelerated 3d Graphics (Although this is possible with WebGL, I would wager
the tools are more focused towards native clients) Access to the device's
Camera / Film Roll

~~~
jarek
You can access the GPS information with Javascript.
<http://diveintohtml5.org/geolocation.html>

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mrkurt
Ugh, I could have read something else but I read that instead.

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grandalf
linkbait headlines anyone? Next, learn why some blogger is quitting javascript
forever and switching to Erlang: bit.ly/hTNYCW

~~~
jonpaul
Come on. It'd only be linkbait if the meat of the article didn't address the
title. I thought his title was very relevant to the content.

~~~
bdclimber14
Thanks, my intention was definitely not to create a linkbait title.

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cageyjames
Maybe I'm missing the point, but aren't there tons of 3rd party clients
available as well as their own Highrise client?

<http://basecamphq.com/extras>

I'm not fan of Basecamp, but I think they've got a good ecosystem going.

~~~
bdclimber14
They have their Highrise client that they hired a contractor to develop on
iOS, and decided that it wasn't worth repeating for their other products.

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markessien
He's right. Many people bet on the web, there is a lot of legacy on the web,
and the web is obviously easier for developers to make.

But the _customers_ want native apps (as thick clients to internet services).
Native apps work better. They are faster and have more features.

Companies that have so much invested in the web, and choose to stick with this
type of technology will find that they were wrong.

~~~
hyperbovine
I think you are confusing the average smartphone user with the average
Basecamp user. The former is interested in shiny apps that make them feel like
Tom Cruise in Minority Report. The latter wants something that is fast, easy
to use, and saves time.

37 Signals has made a pile of money by ignoring all the cw about what
customers want. I wouldn't write them off just yet.

~~~
markessien
Native apps are faster, easier to use and save time. Web apps are easier to
develop for them, that's why they chose them.

~~~
boucher
This is the argument everyone pushes, but it's not true. Yes, JavaScript is
slower than Objective-C. No, it doesn't matter in most cases. Speed of almost
all consumer apps is measured in user time, not in ms, and you can achieve top
notch perceived speed in a web app for most of the types of apps on the app
store.

~~~
markessien
The problem is not javascript, the problem is server round-trips. Local HTML5
is practically indistinguishable from a native client - but that's not what
they are doing. They are making a proper server based system.

~~~
hyperbovine
All of their products are web apps. Those round-trips are getting made
regardless.

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lifestyleigni
A lot of desktop computer based software migrated to the web where it ran on
the server. Made things simpler and avoided "updates downloads" since the
updated could be pushed to the code running on the server. With the different
platforms, and so many versions of Andriod floating around, doesn't what 37
signals is doing, make things that much simpler? Basecamp is about online
collaboration. How could a "native app" do this without the internet?

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projectileboy
I think I disagree with the premise, which is that 37Signals is making some
sort of strategic mistake by not implementing native apps. My perspective is
that back in the '90s, I wrote internal desktop apps for corporations when the
web came along, setting back the user experience a decade (at least). Web apps
have only recently begun to offer the kind of user experience that desktop
apps provide. Because of this, I was surprised when web apps won, and won so
quickly and thoroughly. But it turns out that the user's experience - although
important, and especially so for consumer apps - is only one of many factors
that drive technology adoption, even in the consumer market.

Certainly 37Signals might pick up some users with smoother client apps, but at
least for the time being, they have to balance that against the cost of
developing those apps. My guess is that most users will care about clunky HTML
vs. smooth native apps about as much as they cared about clunky HTML vs.
smooth native apps back in '98. Which is to say, hardly at all.

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tofumatt
37signals has an extensive API built around all their apps with tonnes of 3rd-
party native apps for desktop and mobile. If there isn't a native app for your
platform, go write one and stop complaining.

And arguing that a web app isn't useful as _a freaking web app_ on your mobile
is a little wild to me. There may be deficiencies in areas like file uploads
on mobiles, but largely, you interact with Basecamp through a browser on your
desktop. Why doesn't a mobile work well? (I've used many iOS Basecamp clients
and none were _better_ than the mobile version launched today by 37s).

I love native apps too, and I'm glad that 37signals encourages their existence
by providing a solid, well-documented API. And while they do ship some native
apps, I totally buy them building really awesome web apps on the desktop, and
now on mobiles.

~~~
jonpaul
It's frustrating to me when people say something along the lines of "go write
one and stop complaining." It's hardly a useful retort. I think his main
thesis is an important one to take note of. One that anyone who runs a
software company should consider.

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bradleyland
I can't seem to find OrangeSlyce (the author's company) on the iOS App Store.
Maybe his company has been obsolete since day one? Our little company doesn't
have a native iOS app either. We do make sure our web app works in mobile
WebKit based browsers though. Are we obsolete already?

The relevance of a native app is strictly dependent on your users' demands. If
I'm going to make an investment in a native app for iOS, Android, Blackberry,
etc, there had better be a business case. How many users would sign up for my
service based on the fact that I have a native mobile client? What percentage
of my users are even using a mobile device to access my service?

It's simply not rational to look out across the tech landscape and declare
every company without a native mobile app to be "obsolete".

~~~
jonpaul
His title is clearly calling out 37 Signals, not every company. Are you a bit
defensive? 37 Signals has thousands of users, maybe even more. It's my
understanding that there is constant demand for a native mobile app.

If your business doesn't need a native app, then don't create one. It's really
that simple.

~~~
bradleyland
So assuming we're talking about 37 Signals only, I'd still offer the rebuttal
that claiming obsolescence because of a lack of native app is a stretch. It's
hyperbole. Yes, there is a vocal community of users who want a native app, but
what are the costs associated with building the native app? Would 37 Signals
see any substantial benefit by releasing a native app? What percentage of
their user base are dissatisfied with the mobile web app?

There are a vocal community of users that want Flash on their iPad/iPhone/iPod
Touch. There are a vocal community of users who want a Facebook iPad app.
Apple and Facebook aren't on the path to obsolescence because they don't bend
to the whim of their users.

In order for something to be obsolete, it must be operable, but unused. To be
on the path to obsolescence, one would expect a decline in use. That's pretty
hard to prove in the case of 37 Signals, because they don't publish user-base
numbers. Or maybe they do. Does anyone have a source for this information?

~~~
jonpaul
You've presented a very good rebuttal that's hard to disagree with.

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thecoffman
37signals provides APIs for its apps and there are many 3rd party native apps
available based on them. For example Propane - a native Mac Campfire app is
very popular.

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DavidBishop
If the argument is "they are obsolete because they don't do native mobile",
that is a poor argument to make. Where is the data to support it? It's simply
a theory wrapped up as a conclusion.

The more important question is, "are they positioned well for the future?"
That is really what matters. Don't focus on a particular type of technology as
the end-all-be-all of development.

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steveklabnik
Using the cache manifest, you can still run your web apps offline...

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trustfundbaby
I think he makes a very lucid argument ...

"The fact that 37signals is unwilling to adapt to a changing market (i.e.
demand for native apps) shows their archaic mindset and lack of innovation"

Mobile Development seems to be the next frontier in the evolution of the
interwebs, and they could very well be betting on the wrong horse.

~~~
armandososa
I think apps are the flavor of the day, but the web will ultimately win.

~~~
griftah
Agree. Mediocrity always wins.

~~~
davidw
No. Better economics wins:

Web sites are cheaper to maintain upgrade, and add features to than native
applications, which means that for the same price, you can provide more to
your users. Think how much simpler it is to provide a web app that works on
iPhone, Android, Blackberry and Symbian, compared with building it natively
for each one.

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bdclimber14
I mention that companies must _provide_ for distributed client access. There
are other ways of doing this than developing all clients in-house. Twitter has
demonstrated this excellently through their fantastic API. I think a key for
startups to focus on is API first, client acces second.

~~~
notahacker
I couldn't vouch for its speed or coverage, but Basecamp has an API which
several existing third party native apps use...

~~~
bdclimber14
I've used a lot of those "extras" but they are all very limited and I think
mostly because of their API.

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adelevie
Is Google also obsolete?

