

How much do BART Employees make? - doh
http://bartmusings.blogspot.com/2009/07/how-much-do-they-make.html

======
hudibras
I imagine that somewhere out there on the internet is a Hacker News-equivalent
for public transit workers full of outraged comments about 21-year-old tech
workers getting $200K to eat free food and move their fingers back and forth
over a keyboard.

Full disclosure: I'm a government worker.

~~~
jack-r-abbit
The difference is that the 21-year old tech worker is making $200k because
they asked for that and/or that is what the company feels that job/person is
worth and is willfully paying it. If the person does not think that is enough,
they can ask for more. If they get it, great. If not, they can move on.

The unions force people who are fine with their job to stop working while the
reps fight for more money or something. The unions hold entire segments of
people hostage when they go on strike. Some are less visible than others. Back
in 1989, some Boeing unions went on strike and no one really noticed because
regular people aren't out buying airplanes everyday. I only noticed because my
step mom had to stop going to work because the union said to. But BART
shutting down effects hundreds of thousands of Bay Area people that just want
to get to their own job. We noticed this one.

~~~
melindajb
"While the reps fight for more money or something..." ?

really?

"or something?" that's your argument here?

We have a constitutional right to strike in the united states. Getting mad at
people who get paid less than you for exercising that right--only because it
disrupts your pampered existence-- is the height of selfishness.

Let me set you straight: Unions vote on striking. It is not the leadership who
decides. So the workers who are indeed taking a pay cut for what they believe
is right, made this decision. They had been without pay raises for 5 years.

Assumptions that "anyone" can do the job are not based in reality, but a sense
of arrogance that the people who do the jobs are somewhat beneath the gods of
programming.

Really, sometimes the ignorance displayed on hacker news is embarrassing to me
as person proud to work in an industry that usually prizes intelligence.

~~~
jack-r-abbit
WOW... someone really pissed in your corn flakes.

But let me set you straight on something: I said "fight for more money or
something" as in some thing other than money... like more vacation, more
benefits, etc. They are fighting for more money or some other thing that is
not money. And it is the reps that do the fighting. I don't think the entire
union votes at the bargaining table. So I am not sure why you took offense to
that argument.

I am mad at the extortion that unions use to get what they _want_ rather than
individuals getting what they _deserve_ based on their work product. If you
truly deserve a raise after 5 years, you should request/receive one. You
shouldn't have to have a union do that for you. You should get it based on
your performance and the health of the company like most people do. And if you
don't (and don't like it), you can suck it up or find another job like most
people do.

And, yes, unions do vote to strike. But not everyone votes "yes" so you can
have many people forced to strike when they don't want to.

The rest of your post assumes things I never said or thought. so... ya. Also,
no need to attack me with condescension and call me ignorant. But since you
did, I'll just disregard everything you said. Cool?

~~~
melindajb
I'd love it if management of all stripes, private and public, paid workers
what they deserve, but that just isn't going to happen. Money is a zero sum
asset, giving to one is taking away from another. So without unions, there is
no way these people could get what even some of them deserve. So be mad at the
system, not the people doing what they can to survive.

For most people "getting another job" isn't an option. Have you ever lived
outside the bay area? Do you know what's happening in small towns all over
america? What do 40 something factory workers with a high school diploma do in
central Arkansas? What does a 50 year old BART train operator do in the Bay
Area? Yes we shouldn't need unions, but we do. And the majority of workers do
vote, and that's what being part of union is. The needs of the many outweigh
the needs of the few. I guess those in the union who don't like the union can
"suck it up and find another job like most people do, too."

Yes, your comment "...or something" is an idiom that is derisive. It belies
either your ignorance or laziness about the subject at hand. If you intended
otherwise, you should have said that in the first place.

Also, I've never heard a tech worker tell another tech worker that "they're
overpaid." No, we all fight as hard as we can for what we have, and we should.
And so should everyone else. But not everyone has the background,
intelligence, training, or leverage to do so. Which most programmers will find
out when Peter Thiel gets those offshore programming sweatshops going...

~~~
jack-r-abbit
Again with the attacks and name calling. You really are a very miserable
person, aren't you?

------
Spooky23
I find it funny to read a bunch of outraged reactions from Californians. You
guys allow this by voting in the nut cases that you vote in to the
legislature.

Why does a customer service rep make over $110k? Because the city/state/agency
allowed for work rules that strictly assigns overtime based in seniority and
only seniority.

Why is there so much overtime? Because the agency doesn't maintain an adequate
staffing level and doesn't improve productivity via technical means, hire more
people, or supplement with temps. Probably because somebody in 1990 gave away
the store to the union.

In New York, people are always bitching about police OT and loaded pensions.
NY made things especially expensive because police and fire unions are
entitled to mandatory binding arbitration. So the unions ask for 20%, and the
city/town/etc say 5%. The arbitrator says 10% raise with free healthcare
forever.

~~~
melindajb
Your argument isn't logical. The workers are striking because they want more
money. They are exercising a constitutional right. That has nothing to do with
the legislature.

~~~
thatswrong0
These are public unions. There is an incredible difference between public
unions and private unions. I don't know if you simply don't understand the
difference or actually don't want to, but the fact remains that there is, and
you can't pretend it doesn't exist and isn't the source of most of the outrage
against the strikers.

------
fishtoaster
A quick search of their cited source shows this to be incorrect (or
misleading, at least). Here's a few corresponding values (Total Cost of
Employment = salary + overtime + vacation/sick time value + employer
contributions to medical + employer contribution to pension + employer 401k
matching + 'misc')(Cash = salary + overtime):

\- Customer Service Clerk: 61k cash, 85k TCOE

\- A-Line Train operator: Hard to say, because the range goes from 7k cash to
122k (although half of that high number was overtime). It looks like the
lowest paid operator that's probably full time is around 40k cash, 74k TCOE

\- Elevator worker: I couldn't find this job, but a "maintenance engineer" is
68k Cash, 106 TCOE.

[http://www.mercurynews.com/salaries/bay-
area/2012](http://www.mercurynews.com/salaries/bay-area/2012)

~~~
thrownaway2424
The trains drive themselves in normal circumstances. The operator is needed
only to close the doors. The elevators (and especially the escalators) are
frequently out of service for days at a time.

I think people are mainly annoyed that BART workers want big raises when the
system works so poorly. If all the escalators worked and the maintenance guys
could stop crashing their shit into each other in the middle of the tube, then
maybe we could talk.

~~~
pstuart
I'm chagrinned to be defending BART maintenance workers, but there are some
challenges: [http://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/BART-labors-to-keep-
es...](http://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/BART-labors-to-keep-escalators-
running-4144347.php)

------
malyk
So it is a little bit shocking when you see those numbers. Most of us
immediately think of people who work on the subway or in public transit as
meaningless low wage jobs. It seems to make sense.

But what if you look at it from a slightly different angle. First, these
workers work in one of the highest cost of living areas in the country.
Second, they work for a critical piece of infrastructure. You only have to
look at the havoc one day of them being off has caused. Third, public
transportation is generally valued more highly here than in other places for a
variety of reasons.

Oh, and I overheard on KQED this morning that the base pay is $71,000, which
is high, but not astronomical.

~~~
ccarter84
Agreed, but asking for 20+ % raise over 3 years was a poor PR approach.

I think unions served a purpose in the past, and hopefully still do now, but
honestly once you look at the overtime pay it's painful.

[http://www.mercurynews.com/salaries/bay-
area/2012](http://www.mercurynews.com/salaries/bay-area/2012)

p.s. Some dude took a stab at liberating the data further, but it could use
some work.
[http://public.tableausoftware.com/views/BARTsalaries/BARTsal...](http://public.tableausoftware.com/views/BARTsalaries/BARTsalariesandovertime?:embed=y&:display_count=no)

~~~
mc32
Except for politics, there is little reason the conductors could not be
replaced by automated systems.

In other places, some mass transit systems are at least partially automated.

~~~
cpeterso
I believe BART was intended to be automated. This 1972 LA Times article
mentions safety concerns:

    
    
      Safe Automated BART Train Controls Doubted (1972)
      Legislative Analyst A. Alan Post expressed doubt Tuesday that a $36 million automated 
      train control system for the Bay Area Rapid Transit District can be made "fail safe" to 
      adequately protect its passengers."
    

[http://pqasb.pqarchiver.com/latimes/access/660715472.html?di...](http://pqasb.pqarchiver.com/latimes/access/660715472.html?dids=660715472:660715472&FMT=ABS&FMTS=ABS:AI&type=historic&date=Nov+15%2C+1972&author=&pub=Los+Angeles+Times&desc=Safe+Automated+BART+Train+Controls+Doubted&pqatl=google)

~~~
mc32
That may have been the finding back when the system was being evaluated prior
to '72\. Since then, automation has seen vast improvements in safety and fail-
safe systems.

It's only political inertia, in my opinion, which keeps things manned (and
womanned). I suspect that even as Google cars take off in popularity and prove
their safety, public transit will resist and insist that drivers who are
susceptible to weariness, exhaustion, sleep deprivation, disease, etc. are
still the safer to steer buses through our streets.

------
malandrew

        "We gave up over $100 million in concessions in our last 
        contract negotiations, and we haven’t had a raise in 5 
        years, yet the cost of living in the Bay Area has spiked 
        by over 18%."
    

What I don't get is why they don't try to peg their salaries to something
tangible in the local economy. I know that is already done with the pricing of
Below Market Rate (BMR) housing.

    
    
        "A BMR unit will be resold at a restricted affordable 
        price to a household that meets the first-time homebuyer 
        and income qualifications for the program and for the 
        particular unit. New BMR units will be repriced according 
        to change in the median income from the time of the 
        current owner’s purchase to the time of sale."
    

In exchange for such a concession, the city cannot be blocked from improving
cost saving measures associated with automation, including the dismissal of
any employer whose job is no longer necessary. Any employee that loses his job
due to automation would first consideration first for any new jobs they
qualify for that are created as the system progresses.

These two concessions on both sides take care of the employees and let the
system progress.

The other concessions the employees are asking for such as increased lighting
to improve safety are completely reasonable and shouldn't even require
negotiations to implement.

------
jcnnghm
You can make as much doing menial work for BART as you can in engineering.
Except that you don't actually have to do anything difficult when you work for
BART, it's almost impossible to lose your job, there is no unpaid overtime,
and you get more vacation.

The economics of bay-area engineering are broken. Consider this, how many
engineers making comparable salary could take over these jobs with minimal
training? What about vice-versa?

~~~
adamjernst
BART jobs are quite supply constrained. Sure, union jobs are great if you can
get one, but there aren't many to go around.

Plus, who would really enjoy working in a workplace where everyone doesn't
care? I couldn't stand it even if I were paid more, couldn't lose my job, and
had more vacation time.

~~~
jcnnghm
_BART jobs are quite supply constrained_

That's because they pay way too much. If they paid commensurate to required
skill level, demand would drop because the true equilibrium price is much
lower.

~~~
thrownaway2424
It's a union gig, it doesn't work that way.

------
rayiner
Its interesting to look at the legal department salaries. Mid-level Alameda
county counsel seem to be at $150-160k base + $40k pension contribution, or
roughly comparable to a mid-level associate at a private law firm, while
working far fewer hours.

