
Plastic Micro-Particle Patch Bigger Than Mexico Found in Pacific - caio1982
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/2017/07/ocean-plastic-patch-south-pacific-spd/
======
kbutler
Moore has a history of exaggerating his plastic finds.

His original account:

"as I gazed from the deck at the surface of what ought to have been a pristine
ocean, I was confronted, as far as the eye could see, with the sight of
plastic.

It seemed unbelievable, but I never found a clear spot. In the week it took to
cross the subtropical high, no matter what time of day I looked, plastic
debris was floating everywhere: bottles, bottle caps, wrappers, fragments."

[http://www.naturalhistorymag.com/features/172720/trash-
revis...](http://www.naturalhistorymag.com/features/172720/trash-revisited)

This contrasts with other estimates of one to two bottle caps worth of plastic
per 50 Olympic swimming pools worth of water.

A decade later he backed off those claims, emphasizing the micro particles.

amp.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/the_next_20/2016/09/the_great_pacific_garbage_patch_was_the_myth_we_needed_to_save_our_oceans.html

Other scientists say it is troubling, but exaggerated, and not getting worse
in spite of increased production and use of plastic:

[http://oregonstate.edu/ua/ncs/archives/2011/jan/oceanic-“gar...](http://oregonstate.edu/ua/ncs/archives/2011/jan/oceanic-“garbage-
patch”-not-nearly-big-portrayed-media)

~~~
titzer
As someone who has picked up literally tons of plastic trash off Pacific
beaches with my bare hands, let me be the first to say that you have no idea
what you are talking about. Charles has consistently been on the forefront of
discovery in environmental concerns and has been proven right over and over
again, and you want to berate him for exaggerating. He's not exaggerating,
he's just ahead of the curve.

Also, please don't conflate estimates with eye witness accounts. If you want
to dispute his claims, use data from actual expeditions.

>
> [http://oregonstate.edu/ua/ncs/archives/2011/jan/oceanic-%E2%...](http://oregonstate.edu/ua/ncs/archives/2011/jan/oceanic-%E2%80%9Cgarbage-
> patch%E2%80%9D-not-nearly-big-portrayed-media)

This article is from 2011. If you RTFA above, you'd have noticed that things
have gotten significantly worse in just 6 years. What's changed since then?
Organized, industrial scale dumping from eastern pacific countries (Indonesia
in particular).

~~~
kbutler
Garbage on beaches is by definition not garbage in the "patches." If you are
picking up plastic with your bare hands, you're not picking up the
microplastics which even Moore now describes as the problem with the garbage
patches. At best you can say that plastic chunks you pick up are hopefully not
going to end up as microplastic bits in the gyres.

"[for a week] plastic debris was floating everywhere: bottles, bottle caps,
wrappers, fragments" \-- Moore, 1998(?)

vs.

"It was and is a thin plastic soup, a soup lightly seasoned with plastic
flakes, bulked out here and there with “dumplings”: buoys, net clumps, floats,
crates, and other “macro debris.”" \-- Moore 2011, in the slate article above

And regarding the "plastic soup", every eye witness account I've found except
Moore's say it's visually just ocean water, and occasionally you find a chunk
of junk. (e.g., [https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/sea-unworthy-a-
pe...](https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/sea-unworthy-a-personal-
journey-into-the-pacific-garbage-patch-slide-show/)) Another research group
cited in the Slate article decided to phrase it as "plastic smog" rather than
soup.

When I've found videos or pictures claiming to be from the garbage patch,
they're either of garbage-clogged harbors, or of an item or tangle of debris
surrounded by clear blue waters, or as you describe, beaches with garbage. Do
you have other pictures?

Where Moore has historically over-sensationalized his descriptions, I find I
take his sensational descriptions with a grain of salt.

This isn't to say plastic in the oceans isn't a concern, or isn't something we
should work really hard to avoid, just that sensational claims, along with
sensational estimates need critical examination, rather than simple
acceptance.

"Bigger than Mexico!" What does that even mean? An area the size of Mexico has
detectable bits of plastic? What's the density threshold that defines the
area? And they made this size estimate based on a single traversal? This
suggests the size estimate is based more on the area of currents rather than
measurement of the particulate density.

If you have better documentation of the area claim or densities than was given
or linked from R-ing-TFA above, I'd love to see it. Something more along the
lines of that 2011 study you glibly dismiss:
[https://www.researchgate.net/publication/234157160_Plastic_p...](https://www.researchgate.net/publication/234157160_Plastic_pollution_in_the_South_Pacific_subtropical_gyre_Marine_Pollution_Bulletin_68_71-76)

~~~
barneygumble742
Why does the density matter since any plastic in the ocean will eventually get
broken down to smaller pieces by the salt water?

~~~
kbutler
The density is the amount of plastic in an area or volume of water, rather
than the density of a particular piece of plastic.

It's the difference between 1 bottle cap worth of plastic in kilometers of
open ocean and kilograms of plastic in a few square meters.

It lets you quantify the problem, and actually measure the severity, knowing
where it is a problem and if it gets worse over time.

------
_nickwhite
A quite good documentary has been made on the effects of plastics, and
specifically micro plastics that proliferate the world's oceans. Called "A
Plastic Ocean"\- [https://www.plasticoceans.org/a-plastic-
ocean/](https://www.plasticoceans.org/a-plastic-ocean/)

After seeing this, I now always think twice about single-use plastics like
water bottles and grocery bags.

~~~
funkymike
Both water bottles and grocery bags are recyclable. While the grocery store I
go to the most removed the grocery bag recycling bins they used to have, I
believe they are still accepted at the Target stores around town, along with
other types of recyclables. You may have easy options for recycling where you
can drop stuff off as part of normal shopping trips.

~~~
_nickwhite
Where I live, the trash company is the same as the recycling company, so it's
very likely the recycle (at least some portion of it) ends up in the trash.
Better to just avoid the plastics, which is actually pretty impossible for
some items.

~~~
unkown-unknowns
> the trash company is the same as the recycling company, so it's very likely
> the recycle (at least some portion of it) ends up in the trash

No that doesn't make sense. If they didn't care about recycling why would they
make people sort their trash in the first place?

~~~
kbart
_" If they didn't care about recycling why would they make people sort their
trash in the first place?"_

At least in EU, companies can get generous grants for recycling, but there's
little oversight, so often "recycling" part is only on paper or small part of
total waste. Few years ago there was scandal in Lithuania, because thrash
companies put different containers for plastics, glass, organics etc. but
everything was collected by the same truck and mixed in the same trunk.

------
cobbzilla
Does anyone have any follow-up on this article from 2011 titled "Marine
microbes digest plastic" [1]? Seems like some kind of bacteria can consume our
discarded hydrocarbons.

[https://www.nature.com/news/2011/110328/full/news.2011.191.h...](https://www.nature.com/news/2011/110328/full/news.2011.191.html)

~~~
eveningcoffee
This is very very bad idea because this bacteria can also consume the not
discarded plastics (unless this only happens under certain controlled
conditions).

~~~
cobbzilla
in the article i cited, these bacteria were discovered to be out there in the
ocean consuming plastic. so the genie is already out of bottle, so to speak.
i'm curious if any negative externalities have been found due to their
activity, or more optimistically, do they really metabolise the hydrocarbons
into something non-toxic that other life forms can use?

~~~
sliverstorm
The genie may be out of the bottle, but maybe if we cut off its food supply
before it gets on land...

------
joekrill
VICE has a good documentary on what this actually looks like:
[https://video.vice.com/en_us/video/garbage-
island/563b9c912a...](https://video.vice.com/en_us/video/garbage-
island/563b9c912aab5c416bc75039)

~~~
mi100hael
_> This page is using an unminified build of React._

 _> The React build on this page appears to be unminified. This makes its size
larger, and causes React to run slower._

ಠ_ಠ

~~~
floatingatoll
They ask that you report technical issues to @ViceTech on Twitter:

[https://www.vice.com/en_us/page/vice-
about](https://www.vice.com/en_us/page/vice-about)

------
chaoticmass
This news seems to pop up every few months ever since it was first reported on
about 10 years ago.

~~~
chaoticmass
Actually, per Wikipedia, the Great Pacific Garbage Patch has been known about
since 1988

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Pacific_garbage_patch](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Pacific_garbage_patch)

------
sitkack
This needs a solar powered
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermal_depolymerization](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermal_depolymerization)
plant to eat the whole thing.

~~~
markdown
A massive ocean-going Mr. Trash Wheel.

[http://www.baltimoresun.com/features/baltimore-insider-
blog/...](http://www.baltimoresun.com/features/baltimore-insider-blog/bal-mr-
trash-wheel-gets-his-googly-eyes-temporarily-20151030-story.html)

~~~
bamboozled
There is also "The Ocean Cleanup" project [1] which is worth checking out if
you haven't already. It's a pretty cool project which is under active
development and in the prototype phase.

[1] [https://www.theoceancleanup.com/](https://www.theoceancleanup.com/)

------
rainbowmverse
More of a garbage nebula.

------
radarsat1
So what is the behaviour of this stuff? How does it come together to form
"patches"? If it really agglomerates naturally into (admittedly, very big)
clusters this actually sounds kind of like good news, as it seems more viable
to come up with a way to clean it.

But I'm curious what the mechanism is. Static electricity? Sounds too distant
and "wet" for that to be possible. But why else would it cluster?

~~~
markdown
Ocean currents [http://www.seos-
project.eu/modules/oceancurrents/images/gyre...](http://www.seos-
project.eu/modules/oceancurrents/images/gyres1.png)

~~~
radarsat1
Ah, neat! Thank you :)

------
merpnderp
Always good to keep in mind that this plastic will be consumed by bacteria.
Sunlight and wave motion break apart the plastic into smaller and smaller
pieces until bacteria completely consumes it.

Even so, we really need a solution to keep plastic out of the oceans for a
plethora of reasons. One of the most alarming ones being the largest consumer
of plastic in the ocean is the same bacteria which can cause flesh eating
disease.

~~~
titzer
> Always good to keep in mind that this plastic will be consumed by bacteria.
> Sunlight and wave motion break apart the plastic into smaller and smaller
> pieces until bacteria completely consumes it.

That's all just speculation. Recent discoveries suggest some bacteria may be
able to ([http://www.iflscience.com/environment/bacteria-evolving-
eat-...](http://www.iflscience.com/environment/bacteria-evolving-eat-plastic-
dump-into-oceans/)), but there hasn't been any demonstrated at-scale digestion
of plastic by them.

------
jsnk
I wish stories like this had some photos.

~~~
tyingq
From the story: _" The pieces of plastic are not necessarily floating bottles,
bags, and buoys, but teeny-tiny pieces of plastic resembling confetti...These
microplastic particles may not be visible floating on the surface, but in this
case, they were detected after collecting water samples..."_

So, photos probably wouldn't help much.

~~~
floatingatoll
A density graph of the Pacific Ocean showing plastic particulate count
measured at various points, with the gaps filled in using gradients, would be
_stellar_ here.

~~~
mtl_usr
But the article would lose all clickbaitiness.

Not good when the website that hosts it relied on page view and ads to make a
profit !

EDIT : National geographic isn't an offender for clickbait.

------
brianbreslin
If we selfishly look up the food chain, how does this affect fish we eat? What
are the human health impacts of eating fish that ate micro-particles of
plastic?

~~~
DanBC
The plastic absorbs various pollutants. Fish eat the microplastic, and thus
the pollutant. Bigger fish eat small fish, and we eat those bigger fish.

------
sddfd
This is not a problem. Microorganisms are already evolving to metabolize
plastic:

[https://www.sciencealert.com/new-plastic-munching-
bacteria-c...](https://www.sciencealert.com/new-plastic-munching-bacteria-
could-fuel-a-recycling-revolution)

The real problems start when microorganisms that can metabolize plastic become
so ubiquitous that plastic will rot over time.

~~~
kwhitefoot
> microorganisms that can metabolize plastic

Subject of a Doomwatch episode in 1970:
[http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0564476/?ref_=ttep_ep1](http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0564476/?ref_=ttep_ep1)

------
xd1936
It always blows my mind that we can still "discover" something as large as
Mexico on our planet that nobody previously knew about.

~~~
hn_throwaway_99
Because it's not really something as big as Mexico. As stated in the article,
these "plastic patches" aren't a big visible dump of plastic in the ocean. If
you seem through it, you wouldn't know it was different from the rest of the
ocean. It's basically a large area of the ocean with a significant
concentration of microscopic plastic higher than the rest of the ocean.

~~~
iainmerrick
Well, it may not be very dense, but... It's still big, right?

~~~
dogma1138
Yes but it's not like you would notice it unless you filter the water.

It's bad but if you would be sailing through that patch you wouldn't notice a
damn thing.

If you are a fish on the other hand you would probably not like it very much.

------
danschumann
Plastic Plastic Everywhere, but not a drop to drink... I still won't be
drinking ocean water any time soon.

~~~
danschumann
Do you think there will be de-plastic-zation plants like de-salinization
plants in the future? ( will we ever run out of plastic? )

------
spodek
Also mentioned in the article: 91% of plastic is not recycled.

How many readers have disposed of a plastic container today?

------
blondie9x
Most plastic bottle and bags will never be recycled. Avoid it like the plague.

~~~
ams6110
Even if you think you are recycling it, it might be going to the landfill
anyway. Only a few plastics, also aluminium and cardboard, are profitably
recyclable. In some areas all the rest just goes to the landfill.

------
pgeorgep
And they said it was a myth just like the Bermuda Triangle...

------
robinj6
This is a misleading title regularly used by the media. TLDR: This area has a
higher concentration of micro-particles. It is not visible to the naked eye.

~~~
iainmerrick
What would a less misleading headline be? "High concentration of plastic found
in ocean area bigger than Mexico"?

It seems like this is still a pretty significant phenomenon, even if it's not
visible to the naked eye.

~~~
Waterluvian
Agreed. But that doesn't justify making it sound like there's a Mexico garbage
barge out there.

~~~
nvahalik
"Mexico garbage barge" sounds like it be a great band name.

~~~
mabramo
This post is either meta or deja-vu... I swear someone commented this last
week.

------
Kenji
I am always amazed about how surprised people are that materials that are
specifically engineered to decompose as slowly as possible are in fact doing
just that.

~~~
nsaslideface
Could it be that the surprise is actually at the fact of the materials being
dumped into the ocean rather than contained in landfills and the like?

~~~
flavor8
So how _does_ the plastic get into the ocean? Clearly litter washes into
rivers during storms and thus ends up in the ocean, but that seems like it
must be a relatively insignificant source. Are there countries who are dumping
barges full of trash out at sea? Which ones?

~~~
soperj
Victoria BC actually pipes all sewage right out to sea currently. So anything
w/ micro plastic beads gets sent right into the ocean. This is also the case
with the storm drainage system, so anything left on the road also right into
the ocean.

~~~
irrational
Source? That's crazy if true. I assumed only poor 3rd world countries still
did stupid stuff like that.

~~~
soperj
[https://thetyee.ca/News/2015/01/26/Victoria-Raw-Sewage-
Dumpi...](https://thetyee.ca/News/2015/01/26/Victoria-Raw-Sewage-Dumping/)

There's one for you. People here actively protest against building a tertiary
system for tax reasons and because they think they don't need it (there's
actually a lot of people who even think that it's less environmentally
friendly to have it dealt with on land). It's been an on going debate for over
30 years.

These people also see themselves as "green".

------
summer_steven
If the patch is bigger than Mexico, then why doesn't the article provide a
picture? A Google Earth link? Color me suspicious - and I used to trust
National Geographic

