
Preparations companies are making for Brexit - seapunk
https://threader.app/thread/1061554026284834817
======
jonathanstrange
It's sad that the discussion of Brexit and EU-related matters in general
always revolve around perceived economic issues.

Sure, a healthy economy is important for everyone, but the long-term goals of
EU have always been to create a unity of countries with largely shared values
to prevent future wars (incl. trade wars and cold wars) and to increase
collaboration in all cultural, scientific and social matters. To grow together
instead of alienating more and more until a new war breaks out, like it
_always_ happened in Europe's past in almost every century.

And now it's all about the money...

~~~
diazon
Money is very important to people who don't have much money. If you are a
plumber whose wages are going down and down because the market is being
flooded with cheaper Eastern Europeans, you know who to blame. Of course I
don't expect HN users who are sitting on a pile of money in SF or London to
ever understand this.

~~~
bnt
Or are Brit plumbers simply overvalued and Eastern Europeans represent the
true value of plumbing? I’m not sure if I should put a /s here or if I
actually believe this.

~~~
tinco
That Brit plumbers are more expensive does not mean they are overvalued. It
means they are not cost effective, and that means they'll get less jobs. You
can only be overvalued if anyone is actually paying you for your job. The
reason that they're expensive is that cost of living is too high.

So the real question to ask is, do British plumbers expect a too high quality
of life?

~~~
johnchristopher
Anything has to be overvalued because there wouldn't be benefits then.

------
ckastner
I believe that the title sounds more dramatic than the story actually is. A
shifting regulatory environment is unpleasant, but not unusual for companies
of certain scale, or certain industries. Ask any internationally operating
bank.

~~~
guitarbill
On the other hand, good to hear about. Our team had 8 Europeans (including
me), and while 6 of them left after Brexit (including me), I know a few people
who are still on the fence. Life has largely gone on as normal, and the lack
of talent has driven compensation up * . But unless you're a contractor making
hay while the sun shines, it's good to keep things like this in mind.

* also helps that a lot of business expenses, such as hardware, are USD, so GBP losing value hasn't affected dev salary budgets much

~~~
contravariant
>also helps that a lot of business expenses, such as hardware, are USD, so GBP
losing value hasn't affected dev salary budgets much

I don't quite understand, wouldn't a falling GBP make expenses higher?

~~~
richardwhiuk
If you are paid in USD, and expenses are in USD, then the GBP salary budget
looks better.

~~~
guitarbill
Right, a lot of multi-national budgets are USD, so even if you aren't directly
"paid in USD", that's what the beancounters see.

And of course, you can always simply pass on the price increase to the
customer, e.g.
[https://www.theregister.co.uk/2016/10/24/microsoft_price_ris...](https://www.theregister.co.uk/2016/10/24/microsoft_price_rises/)

------
johneth
This is a bit pedantic, I know, but you mean the UK, not England.

It's the UK that's leaving the EU, not just England.

~~~
smackay
That kind of depends on how the political process plays out north of the
border where 65% (or thereabouts) of the population voted to remain within the
EU.

~~~
hrnnnnnn
Can't remember the percentage, but I do remember that _every single polling
area_ in Scotland voted remain.

~~~
coldtea
That's because they a) voted based on their rivalry with the English, b) think
they'll do better as a tiny independent country within an EU where the big
dogs do whatever they please (or, rather, a single big dog with its
satellites, even France plays by their agenda).

~~~
nmeofthestate
Utter rubbish.

~~~
nmeofthestate
Why bother countering a baseless (and bitter and resentful) assertion with an
argument?

It reminds me of the brexiter voices in England who are furious with Ireland
for having the temerity to stand up for what the UK has already agreed on -
the NI backstop. It's a chauvinist sense of entitlement and over-confidence
that has to some degree led to the brexit mess.

~~~
coldtea
> _Why bother countering a baseless (and bitter and resentful) assertion with
> an argument?_

What exactly is "baseless"?

That Scotland has a long-term rivalry with England? Last time I checked, 45%
voted in favor to break up with England in the Scottish referendum -- does the
55/45 result point to some friendly buddies?

Or that Germany has disproportionate control of EU policy to its
population/economy? That's a lively matter of scholar and political debate in
the Eurozone, not some "baseless" opinion.

(By the way, do you know that EU project (with its ECSC predecessors) was
started with the explicit -- and openly stated -- goal of constraining
Germany, from people that have actually lived the damage its national
ambitions have done twice in the continent e.g. [1])

[1] [https://carleton.ca/ces/eulearning/history/moving-to-
integra...](https://carleton.ca/ces/eulearning/history/moving-to-
integration/the-european-coal-and-steel-community/)

~~~
JetSetWilly
Your argument is baseless because you are leaping to there being some
connection between a "rivalry" and the brexit referendum results.

In fact, even if you look only at people who voted "no" in the Scottish
referendum, the great majority of them were Remain voters in the brexit
referendum. For "yes" voters there was actually less of a Remain majority than
for No voters. So much for your theory of rabid Scottish nationalism and
England-hatred causing the result!

There's some irony in you complaining about the EU being dominated by bigger
countries, while expecting Scotland to just "like it or lump it" when it comes
to decisions made by England in the UK.

At least in the EU you have a veto - in the UK? No such luck.

~~~
nmeofthestate
I think they project their worldview onto the EU. The UK is a collection of
countries where the large country decides what happens. So therefore the EU is
painted in the same cynical terms. That's not to say that large EU countries
don't have more clout, but the EU is not a Franco-German empire as some like
to imagine.

------
keiferski
Correct me if I’m wrong, but isn’t the financial industry the primary reason
London has become extremely unaffordable for normal people?

Is it possible that the negative economic effects of Brexit will have positive
cultural ones, by lowering prices and allowing for more non-financial workers
to live there?

~~~
dijit
It's not the primary reason, but it's a factor.

Low interest mortgages push up what people can afford, which contributes too.

But the housing crisis is fuelled almost entirely by investors, and seemingly
many of those are foreign. They buy property in London because it's a
relatively safe investment, recently it's been very high yield as the supply
is nowhere near reaching the demand.

~~~
sgt101
Also planning laws; if ~8 story blocks of 3 bed flats were built the dynamics
of London's market would be completely different. These would be ideal for
families and the density & low construction cost per unity would mean that the
supply of family homes in the market would seriously improve. As it is
apartments in London are almost exclusively 2 bedroom where one of the
bedrooms is small. This is ok for a family with a baby, but untenable (by law)
for a family with two kids over 8/9 (can't remember) who have a biologically
different gender (no judgements from me - I just believe that this is UK law
as currently written). This creates pressure in the housing market for single
dwelling footprints - which are mostly used and poor by modern standards (but
mind-blowingly expensive).

~~~
lambada
There are no laws in the UK around children sharing bedrooms, regardless of
any characteristic of theirs. Source: [https://www.nspcc.org.uk/preventing-
abuse/child-protection-s...](https://www.nspcc.org.uk/preventing-abuse/child-
protection-system/legal-definition-child-rights-law/bedroom-sharing-moving-
out/)

~~~
sgt101
Odd - I thought that there were; I stand corrected.

In any case I think that a three bedroom apartment is viable for a family,
whereas a two bedroom apartment where one of the bedrooms is very small isn't
really.

------
dustinmoris
I am a European living in the UK and personally I have not even thought for a
split second to leave the country because of the referendum. Doesn't matter to
which British person I speak to, they are all extremely welcoming and polite.
I have never felt unwelcome (even though I have Polish heritage and apparently
Polish people are not welcome in the UK - at least if I believe the mainstream
news).

It's not a very popular opinion, but given that my wife has an ethnic
background and we travelled to many other European countries the only racism
we faced was outside the UK.

Also I really don't like how everything is measured by GDP. Yes, economic
growth is important, but that is just a number and doesn't express how much
ordinary people benefit from that growth. I think we should start measuring
how well a country does by quality of life. What is it good for if banks and
financial institutions yield big profits year on year and meanwhile ordinary
people are being pushed to the borders of the city, can't get a doctor's
appointment for weeks, are stuck in overcrowded public transport for hours
every day and struggle to get a spot in a nearby school for their children.

The main issue with free movement in the EU is that it is easy to move 1
million people across a border in one year, but it is a lot more difficult for
a country to build the necessary infrastructure (train lines, schools,
hospitals, etc.) to comfortably accommodate an influx of migrants year for
year. It only makes sense for each European country to be able to have some
control of the numbers. Integration is as important as immigration and
integration requires additional resources which a country has to have
available. I am not saying that this is the main problem with migration, but
there is so many factors that get completely ignored in this debate that I am
simply sick of reading news articles which only focus on a very narrow
narrative to push their own political agenda.

Brexit is a complex issue and only time will really show if it was good or bad
for the UK and the people living here.

~~~
mrtksn
The UK for me was also the least racist environment in Europe, agree. Never
felt unwelcome and people genuinely seem to be polite and in good faith.

That said, I don't enjoy my right in the UK being a negotiation chip and that
my future business or employment in the UK will no longer be based on my
qualifications but on my paperwork I have.

It's quite likely that maybe sometime in 2024 when I apply for a position in a
company I would not be considered because they wouldn't like to deal with
visas and work permits. Even if I happen to be hired, what happens when I get
old or economy stumbles and I need the benefits that native employees enjoy?
All these things are now under negotiation and may or may not be provided
depending on the deals the politicians negotiate.

I don't like the non-meritocratic system. Maybe it's better to live somewhere
where I have equal rights with the locals and sell services to the UK and pay
visits to this lovely country. The nicest thing about unregulated professions
like those in IT is that you can work anywhere in the world.

------
hudo
Any known list about migration of tech jobs from London, what EU cities will
now be more interesting for software engineers? Im still in Dublin, but on
lookout for some other city/country because of crazy prices in Ireland (rents
going up much faster than salaries), and stability (not sure how will Ireland
handle Brexit since it depends on UK for lot of import/exports).

~~~
smackay
This is just anec-data but from a friend who has spent a lot of time in London
this year. It appears that the EU nationals are leaving in droves. As a result
many IT departments are becoming seriously understaffed. So there may be a
boom in jobs for UK nationals or the companies may be forced to go where the
employees are and move to an EU country instead.

~~~
alecco
> It appears that the EU nationals are leaving in droves

EU nationals in low-skilled jobs left in droves. UK is very lenient to give
visas to skilled immigrants of any country in the world.

~~~
guitarbill
> UK is very lenient to give visas to skilled immigrants of any country in the
> world.

That doesn't seem quite right. Getting a visa isn't harder than Australia or
the US, but they don't just hand them out willy nilly. I know a few Americans
in the UK who find it very hard to even change jobs. Again, that's always a
risk until you get permanent residence, but it's hardly lenient.

------
topbanana
Inaccurate title

It's a list of the preparations that companies are making.

~~~
boombust
Most of that list is about relocating operations/funds outside the UK or
cancelling plans to move them to the UK, and the title reflects that.

------
user5994461
A lot of garbage in this list, including company extending with no relation to
Brexit and regular asset moves.

Just remind me when I saw my company listed in a major newspapers for leaving
the UK, even though we were not. Journalists would say anything to get some
clicks.

~~~
chengiz
Yeah that was my first thought. If they were honest they would compare the
numbers from a different year before Brexit. For every 10 companies leaving in
2018 if only one did in 2014, then sure you can say Brexit is causing a large
outflux.

------
swarnie_
I wouldn't be shocked to see a more favorable tax environment set up after
Brexit to encourage financial firms to stay in London. Its pretty important
they do as financials make up a huge chunk of the economy.

~~~
laurent123456
They already plan to cut corporation tax down to 17% and possibly further
later on.

------
ekianjo
Most companies are well known to be super short sighted, especially large
ones. If it makes sense to get out of the UK to make the next quarter targets
they will do it. Not surprising one bit.

~~~
bkor
Moving countries is not that easy though. Leaving the EU means loads of
additional paperwork vs now. You need someone who understands and is legally
responsible for VAT. You didn't need that before. You need to know how to fill
out all kinds of custom forms. There used to be a large amount of custom
agents for that, you don't have them in the amount you need because they
weren't needed for decades. Loads of companies won't know what to fill out.

BBC went to the Swiss border to transport an exhaust from Switzerland to UK
via Germany. Although this has required loads of documentation for many years
the custom agent in Switzerland mentioned there's problems with the
documentation in about 20% of the cases. See
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hWQ0T10v6Y](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hWQ0T10v6Y).
The terminals/crossings aren't designed for that! There's not enough space for
20% of the trucks to wait an additional 2 hours.

~~~
peteri
It's not that hard though, in the past when working for folks importing from
China it wasn't too hard to do.

Most of the work was picking a commodity code for your imports/exports but you
would have been doing that anyway for Intrastat reporting.

For direct to consumer sellers above the VAT thresholds (€35,000 or €100,000)
the new regime will arguably be simpler as they no longer need to register in
each market but can register with a single authority.

I suspect the Irish VAT office is about to get a lot busier.

~~~
bkor
You only took one bit and responded with a "it's not that hard". Please
explain in detail to all the things I mentioned, not just one.

Regarding your experience: it's unrelated. I mentioned loads of businesses
didn't have to deal with this for decades. They're not known, didn't apply to
be registered, don't know what to do, etc.

------
cryptos
It sad for the UK, but maybe it can at least serve as a warning example to
what populism leads.

------
mscasts
Honestly, who cares? Even if my country suffered economically from leaving the
EU I would still vote for leaving.

I don't think the UK will suffer economically, at least not more than many
countries that still is in the union but just have a bad economy in general.

------
sfcguyus
I suppose it can mean more opportunity to pick up slack.

------
katong
So, mostly banking and insurance companies then. Is this really such a big
deal?

~~~
pavlov
The UK economy is disproportionately based on global finance, so it's a bigger
deal than it might be somewhere else.

~~~
ekianjo
There is more than 50 companies in the UK. what should be news is companies
that are not moving at all and staying in the UK during the storm.

~~~
guitarbill
It's cherry-picked, although I'm sure some more companies are thinking along
these lines, but aren't as vocal.

A list of big companies that have committed to staying would genuinely be
useful. I doubt you'll find many, since saying something like that before
there's a clear deal is a bit irresponsible, like a blank cheque.

------
rezeroed
Edwin Hayward is a mega-remainer, I've seen him on social media, so the chance
of this being a balanced piece is zero to none. Presumably seapunk is also. I
work in a company that is largely foreign, and no one has left because of
brexit. This is project fear.

~~~
piokuc
It's just a bunch of facts on a specific subject: "companies leaving UK
because of Brexit". How would you "balance" a list of facts to make you
happier and avoid what you call "project fear"?

~~~
rezeroed
Can't believe you actually asked that. How about a list of the opposite?

~~~
piokuc
List of companies that are _not_ moving outside of UK after Brexit? Sounds
pretty useful. Go for it, compile it. The author was apparently interested in
those that are moving out, though, but you are free to create a "list of
opposite" if you think this is more interesting. Or, even better, perhaps you
want to create a _list of companies that are moving to UK because of Brexit_?
I would really like to see it.

