
Off the Grid, but Still Online - theandrewbailey
http://motherboard.vice.com/read/off-the-grid-but-still-online
======
codingdave
There are also middle grounds you can take. I, and other people in my area,
live on homesteads, doing our organic / permaculture farming thing, growing
our own food, expanding our solar arrays... while also having a good internet
connection and a grid-tie so we can do our coding day jobs for part of the
day, pay our bills, then shut down and spend the rest of our time in a more
disconnected state. I wish I could disconnect more, but I'm not quite there
yet.

What is important is to recognize that choices exist. You do not need to work
long hours on the office campus of a tech company who feeds you 2 meals a day
and expects your life to be dedicated to your "work". You also do not need to
live in a VW bus with a laptop on a solar panel. There is a spectrum of
choices, with different people finding their ideal life at different points.

As in many things in life, making a conscious choice to follow your own path
is best.

~~~
rboyd
My fiance and I left Chicago (and $1700/mo) in July for this kind of middle
ground. I cross-referenced national fiber optic rollout with low
population/rural areas and we found a few acres with 1gbps FTTH in the Lake of
the Ozarks area. Our place came with an existing 2 bedroom home with existing
private well and electric, all-in we bought for under 2 years worth of Chicago
rent.

Our home is/was a bit of a fixer-upper, and it's harder to get help with labor
here (it exists, but it's expensive). But one thing I've noticed is that
learning plumbing/construction/mechanics has been way easier than learning
software. You definitely sweat more though.

Turn-key housing here exists too, it just comes at more of a premium. Also,
your social life is obviously impacted. You're probably well-advised to
already have a family or s/o (or just are comfortable being alone).

All told, I think this is a great option if you're feeling trapped in your
career but have stockpiled some cash. It probably doesn't require near as much
money as you might think to make the jump.

For us it's exactly what we needed to focus on our startups without going the
traditional VC route. We'd love to see more people going this route. Let me
know if I can help.

~~~
cpursley
The Ozarks are beautiful; they took me by surprise. There's many places like
this throughout the USA. I don't understand the appeal of living in an expense
shoebox in a concrete metropolis.

Another place that's got a high quality of life for low cost of living is St.
Augustine, Florida. It's an architecturally significant city with several
colleges, great art scene, wide beaches.

~~~
dionidium
" _I don 't understand the appeal of living in an expense shoebox in a
concrete metropolis_"

You don't need to look any further than the warnings in the post you're
replying to for a response. If you're dating, prefer lots of social
interaction, or attend a lot of big-city events, then you're going to have a
bad time living in southern Missouri.

~~~
marincounty
I think the dating ritual depends on the city. I probally shouldn't say this,
but I see many single women move to San Francisco, and while if they get
housing, they enjoy big-city events, but dating is not one of them here.

San Francisco is not a good place for straight women to date. No one talks
about it, because it's not politically correct, but in my observations they
come here, and are lonely.

There's just too many single women, and not enough men. I have a very
attractive ex-girlfriend, and we had so many conversations about social life,
or lack there of. It got to the point, where I took her out and watched what
took place. Guys--way below her league wouldn't talk to her unless she
aggressively talked to them first.

I know I get hammered because I'm not being politically correct, and yes--
there's always the exceptions, but at least in San Francisco it's difficult
for sigle women looking for a steady relationship.

I'll point out the politically incorrect thoughts, and save you time:

I shouldn't have stereotyped. I shouldn't have assumed some females are
looking for a steady relationship. I shouldn't have mentioned
looks/personality when I said "way below her league". I probally left out
something that hurt someone deeply--sorry.

~~~
nether
It's well established from census data that SF has a surplus of single men,
not women. More political incorrectness: women in SF should "woman up" and
initiate the approach. Why must they play the passive role? Also, guys
naturally are less likely to approach a woman who's out of their league.

~~~
onnoonno
Some decades of reengineering the gender relations didn't change this passive
role at all - so why do you expect this to ever change?

------
ctdonath
Don't underestimate how much effort and devotion to the lifestyle it takes.
Most of us just want a "turnkey" lifestyle, buying whatever on a whim and
expecting it to just work (plug-in gadgets, packaged foods), with even our
"staples" coming in such perfect condition (box of nails from Home Depot,
beautiful fruits at Whole Foods, etc.). To the contrary, off-the-grid requires
devotion to the act of surviving from basics, and integrating technology
therein takes additional effort/patience/tolerance. It can certainly be
internalized to the point of being "normal" and "comfortable", but still
requires that focus - not sleeping in, driving to work, then grabbing a frozen
pizza on the way home 'cuz you didn't have time to maintain the garden.

I rant on this because of a taste this weekend, trying with mixed-to-poor
results to get my BioLite Camp Stove (otherwise highly recommended) burning a
good fire suitable for charging electronics via its built-in thermocouple
generator (using the compact solar panels was pointless given cloud cover),
and even now a separate solar self-charging battery is sitting on top of my
car recouping from the draining usage on the trip (oops, left something on).

I grew up in a semi-self-sufficient family, growing food and heating with wood
et al. Seemed easyish then, but in retrospect my folks put a LOT of work into
making it work smoothly. Going completely off-grid and still staying connected
does seem a desirable state (a la "first world amusement" and "TEOTWAKI
prepared"), but _yikes_ it's a lot of work - moreso if your immediate
companions aren't wholly devoted as well.

~~~
derefr
> It can certainly be internalized to the point of being "normal" and
> "comfortable", but still requires that focus

I would argue that there's a feedback loop in this particular case between the
requirement of such effort, and the ability to generate it. The same sort of
flow-state you get from e.g. playing Minecraft, also exists in the real-world
equivalent of survivalist bootstrapping. Our brains were evolved to be
_stimulated by_ the survival tasks of our ancestral environments: moreso
foraging and hunting than farming, but even farming still comes with very
natural-to-us acts like crafting tools, clearing land, building shelter,
herding animals, etc.

I think a lot of the dissonance between the modern values of convenience and
efficiency/laziness, and the agricultural-era idea of a "work ethic", was
simply that certain kinds of things that are "a LOT of work" just feel natural
to humans, in ways where they're still work (and drudgery, at that,
sometimes), but not nearly as _draining_ to one's long-term motivation as
modern "abstract" work is. Nobody ever got suffered from "burn-out" making
nails to build their own house—which is amazing when you think about the level
of toil involved. The sheer direct intuitiveness of the goal being
pursued—make exactly enough nails to get a roof over one's head and keep out
the cold—overrides a lot of the the feeling of repetitiveness of the base-
level action.

(A dystopia belonging in an SMBC comic: a nail factory that used to be staffed
with robots, but which is now staffed with humans wearing VR goggles having
the times of their lives making nails because they believe they're doing it
for direct survival reasons. Then the nails are used to build the crappy box-
like apartments they pay for with their wages and go home to.)

~~~
shostack
While not a developer, I do spend more or less my entire day staring at one or
more screens.

My home has a yard that needs to be completely re-landscaped, and the manual
labor for that has been such a rewarding and peaceful activity for me which
speaks a lot to your point.

That said, I realized while buying supplies to build a wooden raised bed this
past weekend that basic things like "screwing some boards together to build a
raised bed" almost seems like an overwhelming task when I first approach it. I
was stunned by this because when I was a teenager I was very crafty and always
tinkered with things and would have thought nothing of this.

The only thing I can think of is that in this day and age of everything being
simplified to a few mouse clicks or screen taps, everything else becomes a
monumental chore by comparison.

In any event, I have my parts, and now I'm excited to put them together. And I
even get to indulge the digital side of me as well by modeling out my yard in
SketchUp so I can make sure I like the layout before I build things.

I'd also note that something as stupid simple as "putting in a path," once you
learn how to do it, is incredibly rewarding to see with the finished product.
I never felt that digging dirt was stressful--just a good workout. And the end
result is something that gives me a nice sense of satisfaction every time I
look at it.

~~~
lfowles
> The only thing I can think of is that in this day and age of everything
> being simplified to a few mouse clicks or screen taps, everything else
> becomes a monumental chore by comparison.

Or that now you know what the tradeoffs are and that there is a whole set of
things you don't know you don't know! My teen self would have rather built the
raised garden bed than used it, so he wouldn't have planned for long term
effects (will this weather all seasons well? will these railroad ties leech
into the soil and kill me via my veggies? etc)

~~~
shostack
You hit on another really important point actually. Part of why it has taken
me so long to get off my butt to buy the parts has been agonizing over
materials, all the different ways I can assemble it, etc. I not only have
newfound respect for landscapers and carpenters, but realized that to some
degree, you just need to pick an approach with the understanding you might
mess things up and it isn't the end of the world. But it is very easy to fall
into the "paralysis by analysis" trap.

For me it was first the debate about cedar vs. redwood vs. pine. Pine doesn't
last well and the cedar options at Home Depot were pitiful so that made the
choice for redwood easy. I worked out that wood screws were probably easier
than rebar or railroad ties to install even if it does mean a higher risk of
the thing coming apart. I can always reinforce it with metal L-brackets at the
corners down the line if I need to. Since I'm going to grow veggies, I needed
to make sure there was nothing toxic, so I got raw untreated wood. I may or
may not stain the outside with a natural stain, but I'll start by seeing how
it looks once I sand it down.

The most frustrating thing in all of this is that I can find plenty of
pictures for what I want online, but most sites are crappy fluff content
without handy details of parts or considerations for how to build it. Clear
SEO spam plays and oh my god so many interstitials and slideshows!
Instructables was actually pretty decent, but I couldn't find a style of bed I
liked.

I guess I just need to do more of these projects to get more comfortable with
the considerations. Like all things, practice makes perfect, and after I build
this first prototype I'll decide if I want to do the same style for the
others.

Next up...figuring out my soil mix and then sorting out how to convert the old
irrigation system the previous owner had at the house to a drip system on a
few of the heads and get that running into the beds.

------
ecobiker
(Disclaimer: Slightly off-topic. Also, it's not my intention to belittle their
lifestyle. I hope I don't come across that way.)

Some of the things they need even in this disconnected lifestyle - like the
mobile home, laptops, books, solar panels, batteries and even the slippers
have to be made by someone doing a 9-5 job somewhere. The idea of civilization
to me is to take advantage of these specialists who are really good at doing
or manufacturing some of the things I need and in turn I become a specialist
in something (probably one thing) which I contribute back to the society -
it's a barter. That I don't have to do all the things I need to do to survive,
seems efficient and effective. Also, not all of the jobs are going to be able
to afford this "luxury".

~~~
OneOneOneOne
Right on. When considering lifestyle choices I ask myself how many people
could live the same way. If it turns out to be a small minority before
collapse, I reject it as a path for myself. To me off grid lifestyle seems a
retreat from the goods of society without a commensurate benefit to self and
others. As an art movement or experiment I say fine.

~~~
Retric
I suspect you could scale the 'off grid' lifestyle to around 1/2 the US
population without many issues. Web + FedEx means a lot of jobs can be done
remotely. Consider plenty of teachers work remotely even if most people think
of it as a face to face job. Even some doctors have started to work remotely
let alone the classic 9/5 office worker.

Sure, city's are a far more efficient use of land and energy, but at least in
the US we still have a lot of open space.

PS: My only gripe is people think of this as a 'green' lifestyle. Generally,
living in a city high-rise and using public transit is far better for the
environment.

~~~
Zach_the_Lizard
>I suspect you could scale the 'off grid' lifestyle to around 1/2 the US
population without many issues.

As you spread out the population, the cost of FedEx deliveries is going to
grow. Now you can drop off goods in a city via a highly efficient train, have
that switched to a truck, and have it delivered to the end customer.

If everyone is off the grid in the wilderness, that train becomes a lot less
useful to deliver goods. Now you've got to reach a larger area to serve the
same number of people.

> Web + Fedex means a lot of jobs can be done remotely

A lot of jobs _can_ be done remotely, but that doesn't mean they could be done
remotely without cost. Many people are less efficient when working remotely. I
find communication to be much harder when remote than when in person,
especially as issues get more complex.

~~~
Retric
FedEx works because people near you also need packages. The more packages they
ship the more efficient they become.

Also, the US population density is ~100 people per square mile so chances are
good someone within 1 mile of you also needs a package today. Sure, it's
cheaper for them to drop off 10 packages at the same apartment complex, but
even fairly remote areas can be surprisingly profitable.

~~~
Zach_the_Lizard
>Fedex works because people near you also need packages.

That's exactly my point. The more people who need packages around you, the
less it costs to deliver a package specifically to you. Going off the grid in
remote corners sounds great, but part of the reason we moved to cities is
because sharing infrastructure costs makes things more efficient.

>Also, the US population density is ~100 people per square mile so chances are
good someone within 1 mile of you also needs a package today.

The US's population density is 100 people / square mile, but that doesn't tell
you the full story. We don't live all over America, we are clustered into
cities and towns, mostly on the coasts. There's a lot of desert and Alaskan
wilderness with no one around bringing down the average. NYC alone is ~6% of
the US population. The Northeast megalopolis is ~17% on ~2% of the land.

~~~
Retric
There are less than 4 million miles of road in the US. At 1$ per mile you can
send a truck down every one 6 days a week for 1.3 billion a year. (Note, there
would be some backtracking but also some roads are avoided.) FedEx's revenue
is 45 billion a year so the last mile is not a problem as long as the volume
is there.

On top of that if you live in the middle of nowhere they simply don't deliver
to you. So, if more people moved to the desert for whatever reason there costs
stay more or less the same.

[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transportation_in_the_United...](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transportation_in_the_United_States)

~~~
Klinky
The drivers alone probably cost more than $1/mile, then you have gas and
maintenance. FedEx had $45B revenue with $2B net income, not exactly huge
margins.

Obviously there is more to package deliver than just the raw cost of getting a
package from a local sorting center to the end of a rural driveway.

At the moment, a lot of the cheap rural shipping is being subsidized by the
USPS.

------
grecy
If anyone is interested in this way of life, I suggest moving North. It's
extremely beautiful and there are way less people.

I moved to the Yukon 4 years ago, and a massive number of people live in this
way. I.e. work less, own less, have way more time and live how you want. Hunt,
fish, grow your own food, chop your own wood, and you can live a great life
only working 20-50% time.

Also there are hardly any rules up here, and they're very weakly enforced, so
you can more or less do whatever you want and "the world" will leave you alone
about it.

If you go to Alaska, stay out of the big cities. They're just the same as the
ones down south, but with more drugs. The small communities have all the cool
people.

Photos and stories from my Yukon/Alaska adventures are at
[http://theroadchoseme.com](http://theroadchoseme.com)

~~~
Luc
Aw, I'm so jealous of the amount of grand nature in North America.

It seems out of the question for me on a EU passport to live long term in
Canada. You're lucky!

~~~
grecy
I'm Australian, and have gone through ~7 years of paperwork to become an
Canadian Permanent Resident. I have another ~5 years for citizenship, which
I'm working towards because Canada really is that awesome :)

I'm sure there are places equally as stunning in the Northern European
countries.

~~~
turar
Doesn't Australia have its own vast remote wilderness? Or is freezing cold
preferable to scorching hot?

~~~
hactually
Surely New Zealand is an easier hop for those things?

~~~
grecy
What makes you think I want easy?

The harder something is, the more rewarding it is.

Also Canada has reliably much better snow, and way, way more wilderness.

~~~
sofal
_The harder something is, the more rewarding it is._

It would definitely be harder to tour Africa in an old, beat-up Honda Civic
than in a jeep, and it would be even harder to tour all of Africa without a
vehicle, or without supplies entirely, blindfolded, and with your hands tied
behind your back.

~~~
grecy
Absolutely. So what I'm doing in my life is walking the line between easy and
hard, in such a way as to keep it challenging and interesting, while not
making it downright painful and so difficult that I won't enjoy it. Everyone
has their own personal line to walk.

I'm driving a nice Jeep, which for me, is as challenging as I personally can
handle, without it being painful and not enjoyable. At the end of the day I'm
doing this for enjoyment, not for punishment.

People tougher than me ride motorbikes.

People tougher than that ride bicycles.

People tougher than that walk (yes, it's been done).

etc. etc.

There will always be someone doing something more daring than me, but I'm not
interested in what other people are doing, I'm finding my own personal balance
/ limit of difficult yet enjoyable.

~~~
sofal
I think instead of framing it as a continuum between easy and tough with a
strict correlating reward factor, it makes more sense to frame it in terms of
the types of challenges you enjoy versus the types you simply don't.

The rewards that come from challenges and difficulty are not often correlated
with the amount or intensity of the difficulty, and even when they are, they
are often _inversely_ correlated. You need to take into account the _type_ of
difficulty (e.g. mastering a musical instrument vs enduring an abusive parent)
and the predilections of the person trying to overcome the difficulty (e.g.
many people who enjoy difficult challenges may not enjoy the challenge of
living in a freezing climate). The challenges that you enjoy are what make you
an interesting person, and so the simple statement that “the harder something
is, the more rewarding it is” is not only completely false on its face, but it
tells us nothing about you other than the possibility that you might be a
masochist.

So one might say that they think that New Zealand provides the benefits with
less of the challenges, but you could say back to them that the types of
challenges that New Zealand lessens are for the most part the exact kind of
challenges that you enjoy. An answer like that would better help people
understand where you're coming from, which is good because you seem like a
genuinely interesting person.

~~~
grecy
Thanks. I guess that's what I was trying to say, I'm just not as eloquent as
you.

------
timmaah
I've held an 8-4 developer job the last 3 years and hit up 36 different
states. Right now I'm chilling at a most peaceful National Forest Campground
in eastern Kentucky.

[http://www.watsonswander.com/assets/2015/10/IMG_6288.jpg](http://www.watsonswander.com/assets/2015/10/IMG_6288.jpg)

~~~
comrh
Did you save to make the trip or are you still working during (or both)? Were
you an RVer before hand? Are you doing it alone?

So many questions, I always thought this was an interesting avenue to take
when considering "working remotely".

~~~
timmaah
Still working and saving a good amount of $$. A developer job that likes me
around during normal business hours. So it is a pretty normal existence in
that respect.

Just a tent camper and when we left I had never towed anything before. We were
prepared and knew what to expect so had no real surprises.

Not alone. I'm married. She does a mix of writing and editing and most of the
day to day logistics.

~~~
comrh
I'm probably younger than you and not married so this might be a silly
question, but do you still have a social life with moving so much? Also the
Airstream looks _so_ cool, like your trailing a space ship from 1955.

~~~
timmaah
Way more of a social life then I originally thought I would have. There is a
pretty good sized community of likeminded folks living the same way. We seek
each other out via blogs, instagram and facebook and hang out constantly. For
new years there will be a gathering of 100 or more out in the CA desert.

------
koenigdavidmj
Joey Hess is a developer in rural Tennessee with similar problems that we city
folk don't have to think of (running everything off a 12V DC battery,
collecting your own water).
[http://joeyh.name/blog/entry/notes_for_a_caretaker/](http://joeyh.name/blog/entry/notes_for_a_caretaker/)
is a good place to start for some of the things that need to be taken care of.

~~~
Adaptive
Came in to this post thinking of Joey as well. I use multiple utilities he's
written. All on a small laptop and solar power. I don't know how much has
changed since '12, but there is a nice summary of his infrastructure here:
[https://usesthis.com/interviews/joey.hess/](https://usesthis.com/interviews/joey.hess/)

~~~
mlwarren
He mentions that his home server and internet gateway is a Sheevaplug with a
wireless dongle and dialup modem. Presumably he doesn't have a landline where
he lives. Can anyone comment on getting dialup access via a cell phone
connection? Is that one way his setup could work?

~~~
joeyh
There is a landline. Cell service is still unavailable.

I could probably get fiber to the house here now, but running the gear would
use more than my total current power budget. Also, I kind of like a more
measured pace in the webpages I read.

~~~
mlwarren
Thank you for the reply! I was under the impression that your home was
occasionally mobile as well so that's why the fixed land line solution wasn't
immediately obvious.

------
lumberjack
If you're using a gas generator you're not being off-grid. You still depend on
society to provide you with gas. You are just being inefficient.

~~~
ZeroGravitas
We had this discussion the last time "off-grid" came up.

Some take it's meaning more literally, with grid meaning pipes or wires
delivering services to your home.

So gas being piped into your generator would be on-grid, if it gets trucked in
then that's off-grid. Electricity via wires is on-grid, electricity via a
factory built solar cell or windmill is off-grid.

Others have a more poetic definition of "off-grid" as "self-sufficency" though
it's hard to see where that ends, as there's no clear dividing line, even a
child born in a remote rainforest tribe with no contact with the world will
end up using tools and techniques passed on by local culture.

------
ChuckMcM
There is an interesting consistency in all of these images, nobody has a
chronic medical condition it seems.

~~~
VLM
They get the economic death penalty and the resulting homeless shelter isn't
as cool looking as a 40 foot houseboat or a RV, so they're not covered in the
story.

------
christiangenco
Oh hey, my wife and I just started doing this kind of thing.

We bought a 2002 23-foot RV for $15k and renovated it to nicer furnishings
than our $1.2k/month apartment near Dallas where she was working.

Now we live in it full time! We're only a month in, but it's been a blast, and
something I can see doing for the foreseeable future. Every new city we visit
we can explore at our own pace, while spending less than we would be living
back home, and living in much more beautiful areas (I'm writing from an RV
park near Lake Placid a five minute walk from the coolest waterfall I've ever
seen).

When you can work remotely, there's not a lot of reasons to stay in one place.

My wife blogs about it at [http://gogo.gen.co](http://gogo.gen.co)

~~~
bproctor
Wow, that's awesome! My wife and I just recently did the same thing. We are 3
months in and really loving it. Currently in Carson City, NV.

------
xacaxulu
For remote workers within the United States, this is one of the best ways to
perform currency arbitrage. Work for company in high cost area, live in low
cost area. If you really want to go down the rabbit hole, go work remotely
from Mexico for a couple months. I put away a few grand in savings while
living extremely well and meeting amazing people while working remotely in
Mexico for a company in Chicago.

------
Mz
I have been sleeping in a tent for over three years. I go to a library to plug
in. I don't have cooking capacity and I get hot meals from eateries. I self
identify as homeless and I am fairly poor, but it was a choice. I walked away
from a corporate job that was helping to keep me sick. This lifestyle is
helping me get well.

There is no heat or electricity in my humble abode. We adjust amount of
bedding and other details, depending on weather.

It has been an interesting experience. I want a house again, but I can imagine
it being something small and simple with few amenities compared to most
conventional housing.

I am still trying to work out those details. But very much enjoyed this
article and posted a link to it on my homeless blog.

------
talsraviv
The comments here are really thought provoking. I feel like I'm missing
something - is there some kind of unmentioned catch, like don't get sick, or
you have to have really good workers/health/disability insurance - to make
this work safely long term?

I love the contrarian thinking but want to make sure I'm accounting for
legitimate cases my young mind might not conceive of. Or am I overthinking it?

~~~
grecy
> _is there some kind of unmentioned catch_

Speaking from experience, the catch is you won't get to live the life of
convenience and luxury that marketing has been pushing down your throat for
the last 20+ years.

When you work less, you have less money, which means you spend less money,
which means you often do things for yourself. Oil changes can be dirty,
chopping wood can be hard work, and canning vegetables is a loooong process.

If you are afraid of hard work and want life to be "easy", by all means keep
going to work and simply pay for everything. On the other hand, hard work is
extremely rewarding, especially when it's for your own survival.

It's a choice, you're free to make it either way you want. I wish more people
knew it was a choice they can make.

~~~
talsraviv
That part I'm sold on. I'm wondering about, as another comment mentioned, what
happens if you discover one day you're not self sufficient, even temporarily
(significant illness, chronic illness, major injury - or something I'm not
considering). If I don't want to be a burden on anyone on the grid, but don't
want to depend on social services, how do I factor that in?

~~~
grecy
I assume you're American, because you're worried about health/insurance.

I've never lived like that, so excuse me if what I say makes no sense.

Can you not find an insurance policy that's affordable even when working part
time? i.e. consider health insurance like other expenses that are very hard to
entirely remove (some food, gas, car insurance, building materials, etc.)..
i.e. most people wind up working something like 20-50% time to pay for those
things, maybe after you add in health care you'll need to work 30-60% time?

Not possible?

~~~
talsraviv
Definitely possible. And you guessed it - American.

Is health insurance the only thing to worry about? Any other reasons to save
up a lot of money, or something to insure for?

For example, if a medical issue arises, insurance covers treatment, but if
it's now difficult to sustain myself, am I now dependent on
unemployment/social services (or savings)?

I lead a minimalist/nomadic lifestyle now, and always wondering if at some
point the music has to stop and I have to integrate into the system as I get
older (any kids, family aside).

~~~
grecy
> _Is health insurance the only thing to worry about?_

Stop thinking up a list of things to worry about, and start doing what you
want to be doing.

Nothing in life is permanent, so make a leap, try and out and see what you
think. Maybe you'll do it for a few years, then go back to doing something
else. You'll never know unless you try, so hurry up and go for it.

------
revelation
If you understand "off the grid" to mean "off the electricity grid", I love
this project of a guy who salvaged the battery out of a Tesla and uses it
together with a 45kW solar panel system to live independently of the grid:

[http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=7...](http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=76492)

[http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=7...](http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=76493)

[http://skie.net/uploads/landscaping-in-
progress.jpg](http://skie.net/uploads/landscaping-in-progress.jpg)

Theres a 100+ page thread on the project here:

[http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/34531-Plan-
Off...](http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/34531-Plan-Off-grid-
solar-with-a-Model-S-battery-pack-at-the-heart)

------
rza
This might have been a good article had it not been for the pretentious,
holier-than-thou introduction. Apparently enjoying the fruits of a modern life
make you a mindless drone compared to the "contemporary fine artist" who lives
on a boat or someone living in a forest re-inventing the wheel for every
modern necessity.

~~~
neurohax
I didn't perceive it as pretentious. In my opinion the problem is not enjoying
the fruits of modern life, but letting others define for you what has or
hasn't value, and living a life where the only goal is being perceived by
others as "successful".

Its worse when you see someone preaching marxism like these hollywood actors
and big bankers praising cuba, the che guevara and what not, yet fully
enjoying the luxuries of capitalism.

------
jqm
I live on a few acres about 15 miles outside a small town in rural New Mexico.
The closest big cities are 3 hours away and those cities aren't actually very
big. We (SO and I) grow a nice garden and have a well, but go into town for
work. Initially I had intended to work from home but it became entirely too
isolated. When I caught myself going outside to have a conversation with the
chickens I realized it was time for a change, and I wound up leasing an
office.

There is much positive about living simply and remotely.

Now the negative: You might want to go to a decent restaurant at some point.
Also, intelligent conversation is a rarity. The folks you meet and deal with
in rural settings often have stunted world views and not much ambition. That,
in my experience, is the biggest problem with going (in this case only
partially) "off-grid" in a remote area.

------
maresca
Every time I read about living off the grid, I think about Ted Carns. He's
done incredible things in off-grid living. If you've never heard of him, check
out this documentary:

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aUxmikfS2LI](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aUxmikfS2LI)

------
pjc50
Last month I visited Peru. One of the many things I saw there was the floating
islands of Lake Titicaca; giant reed rafts that are essentially a houseboat
community. It's a lifestyle on the intersection between genuine traditional
existence, rural poverty, and roleplaying one's own history for tourist
dollars.

One of the islanders let us see inside her house; a straw construction maybe
1m by 2m. And in the corner was a car battery powering a black and white CRT
TV, powered by the solar panel on the roof.

(I could probably also talk about crofting in Scotland, a similar kind of
remote lifestyle)

------
jonpaine
My wife and I quit our SF Bay Area jobs and traveled for a little over 2
years. We backpacked abroad, restored a VW Bus and drove it around the US, and
explored the Bahamas on our sailboat.

One of my biggest takeaways from our trip - which I think is extremely
relevant to the message here - is that my goal will never be to NOT work. Not
ever - even in retirement. The consensus strategy of spending 40+ hours of
every week of your life saving up so you can enjoy retirement is, to me, a
broken model. We met so many people who followed that model only to realize
they didn't have the health or energy to enjoy all that they had worked a
lifetime for. It's heartbreaking.

Work is a GOOD thing. The preferred solution - and I realize this is a high
bar that we're beyond fortunate to even consider(more on that at the end) - is
to find something you're passionate about and you wake up every day wanting to
do. Obviously that's the old cliche of just doing what you love, but it turns
out I'm one of those dullards who has to learn some of the cliche life-pro-
tips through experience to truly understand them.

I'm a solo founder on a business that's just entering private beta, so I know
first-hand that there's an entirely different discussion about delayed
gratification and working at an unsustainable pace in the short term to build
something meaningful in the long term... and that gets complicated. There's no
rule of thumb that I know of.

I could write a book about this discussion, but in sum: I LOVE codingdave's
comment, because he used two words that my wife and I ALWAYS use when
discussing this: "conscious" and "choices". These words came up in every
discussion we had on our travels when the topic came up. The people we met out
there didn't get there by accident. They get there because they made choices.
They lived below their means. They saved. They learned new skills. They took
leaps of faith. VERY few of them were wealthy.

When we talk about this, I usually start to say that everything in life is a
choice; that we ALWAYS have choices, but the sad reality is that isn't true
for most people. I won't turn this into a political discussion, but will
simply say that it would be amazing to live in a world where even the poorest
of the poor have palatable choices that they can realistically make. In our
current world, those of us who ARE fortunate enough to have some palatable
choices can work towards making that a reality. For those that would call that
a pipe-dream, there are easily identifiable challenges like affordable
childcare that are super-realistic and would go a long way in the right
direction. There are amazing organizations already doing great work in that
sphere.

My business is somewhat tied to this topic. It's mentioned in my comment
history.

PS: A grandfathered unlimited 4g plan and a cradlepoint is GOLD on the road.
:)

------
welder
Reminds me of this guy who built a house with nothing but primitive materials:

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P73REgj-3UE](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P73REgj-3UE)

------
bro-stick
Good to know I'm not the only one living in a Veedub.

I live in 85 westy that just recently passed smog after having to change the
cat. BAR CAP repairs are a huge PITA and shops feel obliged to rip you and the
state off with unnecessary repairs. You're better off paying cash to the esses
in east San Jose to make it "pass."

------
arca_vorago
"The people I’ve met have abandoned the chase of the American Dream; they are
not battling traffic to work a nine-to-five job in order to live in a big
house or buy a fancy car. Instead, their values are centered around new life
experiences, connecting with nature, building their own homes, growing their
own food, and having a full sense of control over their lives—including
managing the amount of time they spend on the internet. "

For me, the latter is the American dream, not the former. I grew up with
grandparents who came from farmers, loggers, and cowboys (actually driving
cattle across states back before fences were all over), and I grew up hearing
stories about the great depression and living in environments where things
learned during it were preserved, and it was a way of life where owning land,
even a small bit, was what gave you freedom. It was a way of life that
encouraged self-sufficiency and survival skills. That way of life is under
threat and much less tenable as civilization grows.

Let me give some examples: my great-great-uncle, always stressed to me the
importance of water, and would scold me for wasting it. He lived through the
depression and the dustbowl as a child, and even though he only had 10 acres,
he had two wells and 5 rain-water collection barrels, (and about 7 of those
acres were always growing some sort of food). I live in the city, and now have
a house with 1.5acres, which is plenty for collection, so I was looking at
getting a rain barrel. Well, come to find out, rain barrels are illegal in the
city. So are chickens. Oh, and solar panels have all kinds of strange rules
and laws attached to leases or the local eleco refuses to payback normal
rates.

The point is that as urban areas expand, the decentralization of energy, food,
and other resources is what can help contribute to self-sufficiency, but the
local laws are often an impediment to this structure. In my example, I can
perhaps understand the justification for a ban on city-chickens, but the
arguments against rain-barrels or proper solar encouragement are a travesty to
me.

The only way to get this sort of thing these days is to actually get a good
property outside city limits.

Also, there is one other thing: property taxes. Before 1916, once you owned
land, if you could grow food and had water that could be all you need
(especially if you had good rock/timber sources for building). These days
though, property taxes are so high in many regions that people who could
otherwise be just fine off-grid end up forced semi-on-grid just to make enough
to pay property taxes. (and I especially hear about this for the larger
properties that used to be homestead land but have changed hands and no longer
fall under those protections, so 100-1000 acres ends up super expensive, but a
small plot is not so bad.

Just giving some extra perspective, and also, I would like to point out that
there is quite a difference in the type of off-grid living depending on the
area. I have spent time in remote locations in the rockies, and out in Cali,
and the culture of the Cali off-griders is much more eclectic and hipsterish,
compared to even desert dwellers in New Mexico, and then there are the
Alaskans and Canadians up in the big expanses. I also consider this kind of
living and attitude to be a key component of the "Western" attitude that many
other people, especially from the city, just don't understand the level of
freedom it can provide and how that freedom can change a person.

I have spent way too much of my time looking for land in the remotest of
places, (even in boat/plane only spots) and I hope one day I find the right
one. If you are wondering, the main areas left are New Mexico, Texas, Arizona,
Montana/Wyoming, Alaska and Canada. (I don't count Cali because I feel there
are hardly any actually remote locations left, same for Colorado, it has
wilderness but the pop is exploding so every mining claim and nook and cranny
has an off-grider.) A big secret most don't know about is that the best land
is land adjacent to national forests, (I got spoiled by growing up in such a
place) or the golden find is the rare grandfathered land surrounded by
national forest. There are islands but I'm a mountains guy, and when the
meteor/asteroid hits and destroys the coastal regions I want to be high and
dry.

------
Splendor
Those wide-angle photos gave me a mild vertigo feeling.

------
segmondy
What's really the big deal? Folks have been living like this for much of
mankind and million of folks still do around the world. First world amusement
if you ask me.

~~~
ctdonath
Not with running drinking water, 100Mbps networking, multi-GHz processing,
instant temperature adjustment, and so many calories society's biggest problem
is obesity. Most of "our poorest" are still in the world's 80th percentile of
income/wealth.

~~~
s73v3r
Wealth is relative to where you are.

~~~
ctdonath
You're on Earth. Short of "extreme poverty" (if you're making more than half
the people on the planet, you're not - which applies to practically all
Americans), moving is an option.

------
ck2
After the first story I was like, oh great, it's going to be all rednecks.

But then it got really interesting.

The tree dweller was like right out of a movie or something, that was amazing
and noble people do that.

Great article.

