
Ask HN: Are you finding it hard to talk on the internet nowadays? - dqsmimwwuuu
These days I find it difficult to express myself on the internet. It could be posting this from a non-TOR source under my own accounts. It could also be just chatting with my friends about my views on various subjects. I remember it not being like this when I was younger.<p>I used to be able to post to forums and chat on IRC about anything without fear. These days, on the other hand, I constantly re-examine what I am about to say and what kind of consequence it might have. This results in abandoning speech before I send them to the internet. Further, I also feel that this situation is hopeless and there is essentially no hope to restore the internet (possibly society at large) to the days where I feel more free.<p>Is this something that you find to be true as well? What is causing this? What can we do about this? Is there even anything we can do to get the internet of my memories (possibly your memories as well) back?<p>My current feeling&#x2F;hypothesis towards why the change are (note these are all subjective):<p>For public discussions such as hacker news and forums:<p>1. I feel that I may be under more scrutiny for things I post in the future.
2. Voting for posts (reddit, HN) feels more of a popularity contest and I feel communities are designed to be echo chambers.
3. I fear speaking on IMs these days. A lot of it is due to the surveillance that we are all subjected to. Before I type anything, I can feel their presence upon me, almost. Unnecessary paranoia, perhaps. However, it is nonetheless real to me and scary. Not a single friend&#x2F;contact of mine has so far been willing to switch to something like Signal, OTR, where I feel secure.<p>Ask HN:<p>In addition to the questions I raised in the beginning: am I overeacting and just having tinfoil on my head? Am I being unreasonable with my expectations? Is it just my memories that are tricking me into thinking the pas was better than it is now?
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daveloyall
Poster, you didn't use the phrase "chilling effects". Do you know the phrase?

[https://duckduckgo.com/?q=chilling+effects+eff](https://duckduckgo.com/?q=chilling+effects+eff)

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DenisM
You're probably overreacting. There's plenty of surveillance to go around, and
it should concern you in an intellectual sort of way, but it should not create
a visceral reaction.

In the large scheme of things, civil liberties are on the march. A century ago
we did not have freedom of speech, women did not vote, sexual deviance was a
criminal offense, blacks and Irish were effectively barred from participation
in the live of society, trade unions were persecuted, and so on and so forth.
We've made huge strides since those "good old days". People prefer to forget
about all this out of shame for our past collective transgressions, but I find
this is rather misguided - we should celebrate the progress being made and
become emboldened by the clear success we've had so far in improving our
lives.

Telecom surveillance has been around for half a century now, it does not seem
to have created significant new problems. Dragnet surveillance is a somewhat
new thing, I'll grant you that. It's a bit concerning that a smaller group of
people end up in a position of dramatic information asymmetry. But then,
machine guns, the ultimate in the power imbalance between the state and the
people, have been around since a century ago, and that ought to have been
terrifying _back then_ , but it turned out not a big deal in the long run.
There are lots of checks and balances in the system. Our biggest enemies are
despair and indifference.

Which brings us back to you. By the looks of it, you are worrying yourself
sick. Don't just sit there and ruminate, instead talk it through with a
trusted friend or two (offline, of course). Ask if they think you need a beefy
towline thrown your way, it helps in more ways than one.

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noir_lord
Not really, I refuse to conform to the panopticon.

Apart from here I've mostly switched to using my real name online and I say
whatever I want to say, I don't think it's tinfoil to be wary about the way
the online world is going, post-Snowden we have proof they are doing all of
the things many of us suspected but couldn't prove.

What worries me is that the disconnect between the general population and the
techies who realise the way this is going seems to be growing all the time.

The recent Apple/US Gov case was a good example and while I respect Apples
stance in the grand scheme of things they where putting out the hearth fire
while the forest burns outside.

EDIT: Should also point out while I'm at it that I think my government is one
of the most corrupt, venal and positively dystopian in the western world (I'm
in the UK) and that the politicians on all sides (with a few exceptions) would
do us all a favour if they jumped off the nearest bridge, scumbags of the
highest order.

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daveloyall
Yes, you're not the only one that feels what you describe.

When I first got online, I spoke _more_ freely there than "in real life"!

This was because I was just a moniker, just some name I chose. Nobody knew
where I lived, nobody knew my age, gender, height...

I could be wrong without being stupid. I could be kind without being weak. I
could be right without being cruel.

I perceived a PRIVMSG as guaranteed to be truly private: Nobody would possibly
see it except the recipient, the o-lines or sysadmins, and the "FBI".

(o-lines: IRC operators, each had a line in the IRC server's .conf file. These
folks were personally known to the users, and networks where they abused their
necessary power would dry up, so I figured they were safe.

FBI: That's what I considered to be the top surveillance power--I knew they
could tap phones (or lines in general). I figured that my gaming network
wasn't among their targets. Moreover, I figured that each tap was for a
specific purpose, and that each one was carefully placed so as to avoid
monitoring unrelated conversations... Just out of common decency. I grew up
believing that, except for a few bad apples, cops are people who care about
the good of society and the FBI was composed solely of super cops.)

Even if the recipient copy-n-pasted my message, nobody would accept that as
proof that I'd said something. It's just text, anybody could type out a line
and put my name in front.

I would talk less openly in a channel when some client I didn't recognize
joined... And more openly again when it left. I really believed what it says
on the box: your messages are delivered where you address them, and nowhere
else.

Today, I don't text openly or make voice calls openly, except in anger.

As foolish as it is, as embarrassed as I am, I must admit that this habit
frequently bleeds over into face-to-face conversations as well.

It's not that I really think anybody is listening, it's just that I'm
absolutely terrified that I really am their enemy, and I've seen what they do
to their enemies. It's not just that I'm strongly opposed to the means (mass
surveillance) that my nation has chosen, I gotta say, I'm not thrilled about
the ends, either!

If all of this is being done in the name of protecting the US American way of
life... I gotta ask: Are we kind?

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Mz
My dad was career military. My ex husband was career military. I have other
relatives who work for the federal government or were in a branch of the
military. I also worked for a really big company at one time.

So I have always been careful to some degree, about some subjects. But I have
some idea how they gauge such things, so I am able to make relatively informed
decisions about what things I should avoid saying or word carefully. I highly
recommend you work on that angle of it.

 _When the Nazis came for the communists, I remained silent; I was not a
communist.

When they locked up the social democrats, I remained silent; I was not a
social democrat.

When they came for the trade unionists, I did not speak out; I was not a trade
unionist.

When they came for the Jews, I remained silent; I wasn't a Jew.

When they came for me, there was no one left to speak out._

[https://en.m.wikiquote.org/wiki/Martin_Niem%C3%B6ller](https://en.m.wikiquote.org/wiki/Martin_Niem%C3%B6ller)

There has always been injustice in the world. There shall always be injustice
in the world. There will always be things you cannot or should not say in
public. The American right to free speech does not protect the right to yell
"Fire!" in a crowded theater. But the solution here is not silence. The
solution is to carefully think through what you believe and work hard to
express yourself well and carefully in a nuanced way.

The world will never be 100% safe for anyone. But it is better when people
from not stand idly by and just let it get worse to cover their own ass. Pick
your battles and all that, but work on the piece you have some control over.

None of that is intended to be preachy or moralize. It is intended to address
the concerns you have expressed. I have gone through periods where trying to
express myself online got enough negative reactions that I felt it was a
threatening situation. I intentionally lowered my profile and worked on
learning how to do my piece of it better. I feel more comfortable and safe
online now than I did then.

So, I am not dismissing your concerns nor unsympathetic. I am just a
pragmatist. I like having practical steps I can work on in the here and now. I
like trying to give the same to other people. I am aware that sometimes rubs
people the wrong way who merely wanted sympathy. But sometimes it doesn't.

Best.

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GFK_of_xmaspast
Maybe it's growing up and realizing that it's people on the other side of the
tubes.

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angersock
What brave new world, with such people in it.

Look on the bright side: if you've made enemies online, it means that at some
time you stood for something (however briefly). That makes you somewhat better
than the mealy-mouthed folks who silently upvote and downvote and flag and
parrot whatever the current party line is.

~~~
GFK_of_xmaspast
That doesn't follow, because gamergaters and MRAs and literal nazis also make
enemies online.

~~~
angersock
And they believe something, however misguided, and are willing to take flak
for it. Have some respect.

~~~
GFK_of_xmaspast
Why is that worthy of respect?

~~~
angersock
The ability to believe in something--without requiring supporting evidence--is
perhaps one of the only useful quirks of the human mind. If you don't believe
that that is deserving of respect, we have a very basic incompatibility in
parts of our worldview.

Anybody who translates belief into action, even if it's just arguing online,
deserves a small modicum of credit.

