
Cartridge cannot be used until printer is enrolled in HP Instant Ink - pionerkotik
https://twitter.com/ryandonsullivan/status/1218149470220632064
======
jackson1way
I don‘t understand why people keep buying these inkjet scam printers. It‘s
been like this for almost 2 decades.

That‘s about the time I switched to laser printers. Currently I equipped
myself and my family with a Brother HL 3152CDW. I got it for around 160-180€.
The included toners print 1-2k pages. A new toner does 2-2,5k and costs around
60€ per color (genuine Brother) or around 50-60€ for a 4-color-toner set from
noname brands. We have the printer since maybe 3-4 years and had to buy 1
black toner. I think I got a noname cartridge for around 25€.

If you want a smaller device and save a little money, get a b/w laser printer
for less than 100€.

If I need to print photos, I go to a store with instant printing kiosks. It
takes a few minutes to print dozens of photos and it‘s cheap, around
0,20-0,30€ per print (10x15cm).

I hope laser printers will never become such a scam product like inkjet...

~~~
romwell
>I don‘t understand why people keep buying these inkjet scam printers

>If I need to print photos, I go to a store with instant printing kiosks.

Your solution to inkjet printer ownership is... paying to use one.

"I don't get why people keep buying cars. When I need to use one, I just hail
an Uber."

~~~
GordonS
I do the same, and it works well for me.

The printers they use at print shops are not the same crappy, consumer-grade
inkjets that people have in their homes - the quality is _much_ better. And
you don't need to deal with a constantly "needy" printer that guzzles ink like
it's going out of fashion, and needs cleaned/declogged/realigned every time
you look at it.

~~~
ahartmetz
According to my Wikipedia research, the photo kiosk printers are not even
inkjets at all. They are thermosublimation printers. In any case, their output
looks just like chemically developed photos, no comparison to any inkjets I
have seen.

They might also be wax printers. When I worked (student job) for a medical
imaging company, they had their customers use wax printers IIUC. At least that
was what they used internally.

~~~
tomatocracy
At the other end of the market, if you're putting photos on your wall,
specialist photo printers who target the art market have quite a few different
process options and some very interesting paper options, although you'll be
looking at maybe GBP10+ or equivalent for an 8x10 print.

Many will give or sell you cheaply a sample pack - it was a revelation to me
how good and broad the options were. This includes printing using old
fashioned optical photo paper and a machine which is effectively a projecter
to expose the image on it - I like this for black and white prints especially.

~~~
vanniv
I have one of the Canon PRO-1000 printers. There was a really good sale going
on a couple years ago, where I could get the printer + 2 full sets of inks for
just the price of the inks.

It is incredibly expensive to operate, especially at low print volumes. If I
were printing on it all day, it would probably be fine -- but I end up wasting
probably half the ink in startup cycles.

But, when using good papers, it produces the most amazing prints I've ever
had.

Now that I've used one, I'd never buy it again unless I had some sort of
business that produced more volume -- but until I use up all the supplies I
bought, I have the most amazing prints!

------
scarface74
There’s a lot of nerd rage about nothing. He bought an ink cartridge with a
subscription plan. When you stop paying the subscription it stops working. He
could cancel the subscription, send the cartridge back and replace it with a
normal cartridge.

I have a mix of music I bought from iTunes before Apple Music and Apple Music.
If I cancel my subscription, I don’t have access to the subscription music but
I keep access to the music I bought - DRM free.

What’s the difference?

~~~
mark-r
The difference is dark patterns. They made him believe he was registering when
he was actually subscribing.

~~~
scarface74
Why would he think he needed to enter his credit card information just to
“register”?

This is the marketing page for Instant Ink. It seems pretty clear to me:

[https://instantink.hpconnected.com/us/en/l/](https://instantink.hpconnected.com/us/en/l/)

------
kmarc
Yes. This is how it works, this is what he clicked the button "I agree" for.

He could have chosen the old way and buying the cartridges himself on a
regular basis, but he chose the subscription model and now he wines about it.

What you need to understand about the subscription model is that you DON'T own
the cartridge and you DON'T pay for the cartridge. You pay for printed pages.
If the ink runs out, the printer automatically orders a set of new ones, for
no additional cost. You receive a package to your preferred postal address,
that contains the new ink and a sealable, labeled, post-stamped bag in which
you will put the old ones and send it back to HP.

I absolutely love this model. I pay the minimal 2USD for it (if I exceed the
monthly printable 50 pages, I get another 10p/$1, or upgrade my subscription.
Unused quota accumulates up to 100p), and I get a monthly email about the
detailed pricing.

Also, this way the used cartridges (dangerous waste) are handled properly and
an environmentally friendly way.

~~~
jammygit
"I absolutely love this model."

You are right, the model is great for some people in some cases. However, its
a model where companies use software to lock you out of being able to use your
hardware. This is becoming extremely widespread. Consider also the farmers
having to deal with the John Deere tractor licenses and being unable to
maintain their own equipment (or Apple preventing you from being able to
upgrade or repair your macs/iphones).

The problem is that as the practice scales, people end up with no real
property rights, and are just ensnared in a hundred terms of service
agreements that they literally cannot escape while living a normal life.

Lots of potentially dangerous things are harmless or even pleasant on a small
scale.

~~~
sammorrowdrums
While I agree I think that domestic printing is and should be increasingly
obsolete so I opted for free tier printing specifically because I wanted a
fallback (like keeping an old USB CD-ROM drive in case - like my canon camera
firmware was not online and only on the CD they sent me).

If you are occasionally forced to send in a paper form or your flight carrier
insists on a printed boarding pass etc. it doesn't make economic sense to keep
a printer functional at normal cost.

I see HP free tier as a legacy support system.

Ideally I'd print nothing. It's maddening how much bureaucracy still requires
printing.

But I agree that on devices that you depend on it is weird.

I live in Amsterdam and have a subscription bike (and I pay for the fact that
I will always have a replacement bike if any issues come up)... but I guess I
wouldn't like a situation where I couldn't buy (and repair) a regular bike.

~~~
himlion
Really? I live in the Netherlands as well and haven't had to print something
in ages. If I have to I'll just go to the library which is right next to the
supermarket.

I do write the address on envelopes by hand, which I would use a printer for
if I'd own one.

~~~
zeroonetwothree
Things I print: manuscripts to edit (easier to mark up), crosswords to solve,
sheets for PnP RPGs, print and play games, patterns for children, etc

~~~
pbhjpbhj
I basically markup manuscripts 50% of my day, I live in OneNote (on Surface
Pro). For MS I'm quite impressed, there's a few annoyances (and work won't let
me try OneTastic) but overall it works -- I've not printed anything for my own
use since I started using it.

------
milankragujevic
InkJet printers are a scam. And not [only] because of the "genuine" cartridge
lock in, but because they are trash devices.

I had 2 "low-end" HP printers that would die after 2 years (warranty period).
The way they would die is very interesting: The printer would receive the
document to print, pull in paper, start priting but not pull the paper so
everything would get printed on one line. Then, when it is done printing, it
would move the paper properly, in steps, without printing anything, until it's
"done", when it would eject the paper. That is a software problem, because 1.
it can pull the paper precisely, and 2. it can print. It just desynchronizes
the pulling of paper with the printing.

After that, I got another HP printer that was 3 times the price, which works
right now, but it's absolutely trash quality. It cost 100€, and I'm comparing
it's color print quality to a color laser printer at work, from Konica
Minolta, which is actually 5 times the price, the but the quality, speed of
printing, reliability and cost of maintenance (and the fact it's been printing
hundreds of pages per day for 5 years without duying yet).

InkJet printers are awful in quality, cost more to own, require regular
maintenance, break or pause in critical moments ("Please wait while the
printer performs head alingment", "The printer is priting a test page. When
done, please scan the page and click OK to continue. ", "The printer is
cleaning the head surface. Please wait. This may use up a large amount of ink.
") and slower than laser printers.

This is not mentioning the fact that print quality in black is atrocious on
cheaper InkJets, which specify a huge resolution but in reality the dots are
misaligned and fuzzy.

Basically, awful devices. Printers in general are awful devices, but consumer
InkJets are a whole different level.

Edit: I just checked, Konica Minolta in Belgrade (Serbia), represented by
Konica Minolta Business Solutions Europe GmbH, literally only does "Industrial
InkJet printers" now, and has subscription models for whole printers, where a
company pays a monthly subscription for a printer, and has that printer
maintained on-premise, replaced with no downtime, refilled and has some level
of additional support. I'm not sure that's what my workplace uses.

~~~
semi-extrinsic
My conclusion is that unless you're printing 50+ large photos or hundreds of
4"x6" pics per year, the total cost of just ordering prints from a print shop
is much lower than owning an inkjet.

~~~
detaro
One benefit of this Instant Ink subscription thing: you pay per printed page,
not for ink usage. Doesn't matter if the page is white with some black lines,
or a full-size photo.

But yes, if you don't need them _now_ professional printing is quite cheap and
you need to invest quite a bit to get the same quality at home.

~~~
hedora
When I print once a year, and the heads dry out before each job, and then the
printer dies completely one day after the normal warranty period, do I stil
just pay the minimum monthly fee and receive all the replacement e-waste for
free, or are there other charges (like buying a new printer?). Does HP pay the
recycling fees (and buy carbon offsets) for waste stream this produces?

This is exactly my usage pattern for printers, and why I switched to a laser
printer.

------
mgiannopoulos
Was he tricked into buying a an ink cartridges subscription and hadn’t noticed
he was paying for one?

~~~
sixothree
On top of the fact that he bought an inkjet printer in the first place, which
seems silly enough in this day and age.

~~~
sebazzz
I bought a quite expensive (300 euro) color laser printer about 4 years ago (a
HP, but I'm happy with it). I have never replaced the toner, but do need to
print from time to time. If I had bought an inkjet printer I'm pretty sure I
would have spent more on cartridges by now. Mostly because cartridges dry out.
Not on HP printers, but on some, it causes the printer to fail permanently too
if a cartridge is dry (Epson comes to mind).

~~~
sammorrowdrums
Well instant ink has a free tier. So I have bought an $80 inkjet and then
payed a total of about $5 on ink since then when I went over the free limit.

Across about 3 years so far.

But HP spy on me via my printer.

------
spicymaki
I have an HP Envy 7800 series printer that is not enrolled in Instant Ink and
it works just fine. HP asked me once during driver installation to subscribe
to the subscription service, I said no, and it has not asked me again.

One technical advantage HP has over Brother is the printer head is integrated
into the cartridge. I previously owned an expensive Brother office inkjet
printer and the printer head got into a bad state where no matter how many
times I cleaned the head or replaced ink I had streaks. Another issue with
Brother is it would not let me print black and white if I did not have color
ink installed (HP does).

Compared with the Epson EcoTank is there is an unused ink reservoir (called an
ink pad) that will collect ink during cleaning cycles and other operations.
Once this reservoir is full the printer has reached end of life (and Epson
does not recommend servicing it). The EcoTank is really expensive as well.

------
chiefalchemist
I bought an Instant Ink printer in 3Q 2019. I don't print much so a free 10
pages per month (on a sale priced all-in-one) appeals to me.

My biggest concern is privacy / security. In theory HP - or someone else? -
can now see anything I print/scan/copy. I'm still not sure I'm comfortable
with the idea.

------
sammorrowdrums
The cartridges are also special high capacity ones, but essentially you pay
for the subscription to use the cartridges (which are sent for free
automatically) at the cost of your data.

Page limits are defined by the tier you are on.

It would not make sense to allow the user to continue using them out of,
because their retail price is generally above the subscription costs, so it
would otherwise allow people to keep subscribing and cancelling.

~~~
sammorrowdrums
I should clarify. It's in the contract you're meant to send them back to HP.
They have a postage paid bag to return them in. That's true when they run out
but also when you cancel.

------
blackhaz
Great so many people consider Brother. A year ago I've had enough of the
mainstream printer mafia and thought I need to support a different
manufacturer. Got DCP-J772DW. It's an inkjet, but feels well built and
cartridges last. Also, the Linux CUPS driver is easy to adapt for FreeBSD.
There is a HOWTO on FreeBSD forums if anyone considers going this way.

------
teruakohatu
This service seems to send a new ink cartridge when the current cartridge is
running low. The monthly price depends on how much you print, and there is a
free tier that allows for 15 pages/month but you will be charged $1/10 pages
if you print more than 15 pages. It seems you need to provide a credit card
even for the free tier.

[https://instantink.hpconnected.com/](https://instantink.hpconnected.com/)

[https://support.hp.com/nz-en/document/c03767640](https://support.hp.com/nz-
en/document/c03767640)

They seem to brick your cartridge to prevent the plan being cancelled just
after they send you a cartridge, which could be done on the free tier. I don't
like it in theory but it makes sense they would disable it.

------
sleavey
I've always wondered why someone hasn't started a company making expensive but
fixable printers with ink reservoirs that can be refilled from bottles. You
could charge 10x more than what HP and co charge for the hardware, and sell
replacement parts and repair services to sustain the business. Surely you
could carve out a niche of consumers disgruntled with the current ink cartel
and it would look good in the modern age by cutting down on people buying new
throwaway printers when they run out of ink.

~~~
pas
According to this[0] comment Epson does exactly that!

[0]:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22083308](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22083308)

~~~
sleavey
Nice. But I still dream of the day we make open source printer hardware and
software with refillable ink and replaceable/repairable parts!

------
tripzilch
How do you get into a situation where you're automatically paying $5/mo for
your printer and don't know about it?

------
ohahn15t36w
Reminds me of some of Netgear's newer switches that don't let you access much
of the configuration until you register it to a Netgear account...

[https://kb.netgear.com/000061528/GS108Tv3-GS110TPv3-GS110TPP...](https://kb.netgear.com/000061528/GS108Tv3-GS110TPv3-GS110TPP-
Firmware-Version-7-0-2-5)

------
rhabarba
I wonder how this is different from literally any other subscription service
like Spotify and Netflix: Your subscription has expired, so the owner of the
goods wants you to stop using his stuff.

------
teh_infallible
Even when you buy HP cartridges, the printer can detect how old they are, and
they arbitrarily stop printing well after a certain amount of time. A
cartridge absolutely does not guarantee s certain number of printed pages

------
Havoc
I just print my stuff at the office - bunch of massive enterprise printers
there.

Home printers don't make sense to me on cost, time & scale.

Then again not all employers are cool with incidental personal use.

~~~
tomatocracy
Some enterprise printers can be set up to keep a copy of every page they print
(and scan), at least for a period of time. Bear that in mind if any of what
you print is something you'd consider sensitive.

~~~
milankragujevic
Printers at my work place are network only, and the server keeps copies of
everything scanned and printed. Every user logs in to the printer with a 6 or
9 digit PIN and chooses which document to print or where to store the scanned
file. You can encrypt the file and decrypt on the printer, I'm not sure if the
printer returns the key to the server for later analysis.

~~~
Havoc
>Printers at my work place are network only

Think you're misunderstanding OP. This applies even to keycard/pin printers.

Basically all those big fat enterprise printers have harddrives in them that
capture prints. Really don't get why, but apparently that's a fairly universal
thing in enterprise printers. As best as I can tell even IT dept isn't always
aware of this so a lot of them get sold/disposed with that hdd in it....

~~~
milankragujevic
> and the server keeps copies of everything scanned and printed.

The end result is the same, it's all logged and stored.

------
Lagogarda
$64,000 question here is-why are you still using Inkjet Printer?

~~~
nightfly
For some hobby stuff inkjet is just what you need. Not everything works with
laser printers.

------
nexuist
Why are people still using _printers_ at all?

I cannot fathom any reason outside of art / photos why you would want to print
a document when you can view it on just about every device available to you.
When was the last time you were in a room without a screen? A room where
nobody had a smartphone, tablet, laptop, or TV? Do you view Word documents in
the shower?

It seems like from a financial and environmental perspective, printing out
forms is exceedingly wasteful.

~~~
detaro
1) art/photos

2) sending letters

3) handing in forms to government services etc

4) paper is a lot more practical to just stick somewhere/hand around for
whoever to use, e.g. checklists

5) making signs/labels for stuff

6) handing in homework

~~~
brokensegue
I agree with all that though only the first option definitely needs color
(inkjet) printing.

~~~
detaro
Sure, but parent was only asking about "printers".

~~~
brokensegue
yeah i was trying to make a charitable re-interpretation of the parent

------
veselin
This model is perfectly good. However, the laws are still outdated with
respect to it. Here are simple proposals:

\- hp (or Apple) can sign you up for this, but then they cannot call it "buy"
in the shop. Rent an iPhone (Android phone) or install a printer may be what
it should be.

\- they need to inform you about the price. In EU a shop cannot write prices
without VAT. Install for X EUR + Y EUR per month is what should be on the
sticker.

\- finally, there is the antitrust. If somebody tries to replace Y with ads,
this must be legally part of the price. Higher price for consumers is what
makes a good reason to split a monopoly.

~~~
samatman
Is there in fact an Apple program that amounts to renting? I'm only aware of
the iPhone upgrade program, where you pay monthly and can get a new phone once
a year after turning your old one in. But if you pay for two years, the phone
is yours, outright.

I'm a buy-with-cash kind of guy, but the above isn't rental and shouldn't be
described as such. It's a payment plan with some incentives designed to keep
iPhone sales up.

