

The H-1B visa program is a scam - omnibrain
http://www.cringely.com/2015/06/15/the-h-1b-visa-program-is-a-scam/

======
scrumper
No, the H-1B program is a useful tool for tens of thousands of immigrants to
get established in the USA. Its structure lets it be abused by bottom feeding
offshoring shops paying below market rates for onshore workers, who are
enabled by their clients buying low-value IT services in bulk without any real
thought as to what they are trying to achieve. You can't fix that without
ending a comparatively low friction immigration channel for a very large
number of people.

At one of my past employers we used H-1B visas to transfer Indian workers from
our offices in Hyderabad to New York. The paperwork was much easier for us
than trying to do L1s; the tradeoff being that, once here, they were free to
seek employment elsewhere. None did: we treated and compensated them the same
as our US citizen workers.

The visa is not the person.

------
furyg3
Complaining about domestic supply is a legitimate complaint. Clearly asking
for permission to solve a supply problem by importing foreign labor would mean
1) that you would have to pay the same rates as domestic employees in that
function are paid (thus excluding the imported labor from that calculation)
and 2) Those employees should be able to switch jobs at will. Without this
you're complaining about domestic cost and not supply.

That is, if you believe that these type of immigration schemes should be
necessary at all.

~~~
dummy7953
"Complaining about domestic supply is a legitimate complaint."

The business community will complain about supply regardless if there's a
problem or not.

------
yankoff
> If there are indeed exceptional jobs that can’t be filled by ANY domestic
> applicant, there’s still the EB-2 visa program, which somehow doesn’t max-
> out every year like H-1B

I'm not sure this guy knows what he is talking about. EB-2 will take 1.5 years
best case scenario. For people from some countries (India, China) it will take
much more. Also you can't lowball h1b worker on a salary and pay him less than
average, the h1b petition will likely be not approved.

------
rfreytag
While visiting a Maker Faire in my area last week I happened upon a Cognizant
booth staffed entirely by 30-something Indians. While they showed my daughter
how to make a windsock out of duct-tape, one of their number told me about his
background and their difficulty being separated from their family back home
and why it is still a better choice than living in India.

As I listened the term "Digital Sharecroppers" came unbidden to mind. But this
is worse than sharecropping because an H-1B worker can't switch employers.

What Cognizant and the rest of the H-1B abusers are doing is exploiting the
promise/hope of US Citizenship while suppressing near-term wages (and the
value of the citizenship they use as a lure), with indentured servants.

Cringely is right. The E2-B program is an appropriate alternative. Another
good option would be the Entrepreneur Visa. I say trade an Entrepreneur Visa
program which creates new jobs in exchange for killing the H-1B visa which
only suppresses wages and supports corporate dinosaurs trying to cut their
bottom line rather than actually innovating.

~~~
abhiv
Cringely doesn't understand the difference between immigrant and non-immigrant
visas if he recommends the EB-2 as an alternative to the H-1B. The EB-2 is a
green card application for a foreign worker who wants to live in the US
permanently; the H-1B is for people who just want to work in the US for some
period of time. All countries have similar distinctions between workers and
long-term residents, and confusing them is a strong indicator that the writer
doesn't know what he is talking about.

Cringely is also wrong in at least one important respect about the EB-2 visa:
its numbers do indeed fill up every year, just like for the H-1B, for Indian
and Chinese applicants. So if you file an EB-2 based visa application this
year, it will take you about 10 years to receive your EB-2 based green card if
you are Indian, and 5 years if you are Chinese. The US Government was, as of
February 2015, processing EB-2 applications received in September 2005 for
Indian applicants, for example [1].

Is Cringely then suggesting that companies wait 5-10 years for new foreign
employees to join them?

I've posted about this before on Hacker News, but it's a common misconception
here that H-1B workers are somehow "indentured", or that they cannot switch
employers. Under the AC-21 act of 2000 [2], H-1B employees can switch
employers with a single H-1B transfer filing, and even start working at their
new employer while their H-1B transfer application to their new employer is in
process. Further, the H-1B transfer application is not subject to the yearly
cap (which has been regularly reached in recent years), so there is almost no
chance of it being denied. In practice, this means that H-1B workers have as
much job mobility as native American workers.

The bad actors in the H-1B program are indeed the Indian outsourcing
companies, which need to be investigated and punished for violations of the
program, including paying below market wages. But there are many more good
actors who use the H-1B program extensively -- Google, Facebook, and similar
reputable American tech companies -- and they don't use it because they
underpay their employees, but because they can't find enough qualified
employees even given their high wages. There was a recent post on HN about the
very high salaries paid by these companies to their H-1B employees, as
disclosed in their H-1B visa applications.

Summary: For someone who claims to have written a long running series on the
H-1B program, Cringely is disappointingly misinformed. The H-1B program has
violations, which need to be properly investigated, but the EB-2 is not even
close to a viable replacement for it. H-1B employees are not indentured labor
and have high job mobility, except in the case of a few large outsourcing
companies which do indeed deserve to be punished.

[1] Monthly Visa Bulletin from the US Department of State:
[http://travel.state.gov/content/visas/english/law-and-
policy...](http://travel.state.gov/content/visas/english/law-and-
policy/bulletin/2015/visa-bulletin-for-february-2015.html)

[2] H-1B Visa Transfer: [http://www.usavisanow.com/h-1b-visa/h1b-visa-
resources/h-1b-...](http://www.usavisanow.com/h-1b-visa/h1b-visa-
resources/h-1b-transfer/)

~~~
rfreytag
Cringely singles out the H-1B abusers to whom I and you refer, and that pay
substandard wages, not Google, et al..

Also, switching employers is encumbered if there is any risk of deportation
without continuous employment which "vosper" (see peer comment to yours) notes
IS a growing risk as the H-1B ages. This is the "indenture" effect in
question.

Lastly, H-1B workers working for the aforementioned abusing employers accept
their lower wages and often poor conditions because of the hope that once in
the USA they will find a Green Card sponsor. This makes the H-1B equivalent to
the EB-2 when speaking of the abusing employers to which Cringely refers.

------
matt_s
Another aspect is the accounting rules. When a company has direct employees
working, they show up on a P+L statement in the labor section. When a company
is "buying a service" from an outsourcer, staffed completely with H1B and
offshore people, it gets treated differently and can be accounted for in a
different section of the P+L. I believe this is enough for larger companies to
see moving hundreds or thousands of jobs to this model for pure tax
implications. Especially if they can "amortize" out the cost of building
something by 3 years. This is in addition to the 1/3 to 1/4 cost.

Change the accounting rules to make companies track H1B and outsourcers as
labor and it may make some companies second guess this model.

Nobody is mentioning quality either... since that doesn't show up in a
spreadsheet or accounting system. The fact that your projects are taking
longer and are buggier is more of a soft metric but definitely will impact the
bottom line.

------
serge2k
Why not just raise the price and crackdown on companies actually abusing the
system?

If it now costs you 1.25x the price of a US worker, and scamming the system
means you can't get any more visas that would fix the problem.

------
alexbel
Where can I see the information about approved H-1B visas? They have these
data in the article, but what I see in the internet it's only LCAs and their
status.

------
SneakerXZ
I think the biggest problem with H-1B visa program is that quota is for entire
world. It would be better to have 10k places for Europe Union, 10k places for
India, 10k places for China and so on for other big countries and then have
another pool for small countries. This would diversify population of US and
would yield much better results.

Because currently H-1B is mostly used by Chinese and Indian people.

------
brownbat
I'm not very good at maintaining an even tone on this issue, because it
increasingly strikes me as an issue of fundamental human rights. So forgive my
aggressively anti-border position, probably far out of the mainstream.

I'm not completely alone in my minority view though. The UN human development
report put it this way, "mobility is a fundamental element of human freedom
[and] entails the freedom to seek opportunities to improve living standards,
and health and education outcomes, and/or to live in safer, more responsive
communities."[1]

Doesn't that have at least some intuitive appeal? What if you've relocated to
a city from a surrounding town, (as most people in America have been doing
since at least 1950 [2]). Suppose someone took you out of your current home
and returned you to the town you grew up in as a child. Would that be fair in
any sense of the word?

If someone from Wyoming can move to Miami for a better opportunity, then why
not someone from far closer, and likely even far more culturally similar?
Someone from Haiti or Cuba?

More than anything, when people rebut the notion that everyone should be
allowed to pursue a better life, regardless of the circumstances of their
birth, it reminds me of Texas's argument against abolition. Its articles
argued that abolitionists were foolishly "proclaiming the debasing doctrine of
equality of all men, irrespective of race or color--a doctrine at war with
nature, in opposition to the experience of mankind, and in violation of the
plainest revelations of Divine Law."[3]

It seemed pretty horrible then, and it seems pretty horrible now.

Or as Caplan put it, Your fellow "Americans are not the master race." You
wouldn't kill for them. Why condemn others to poverty for them? Why not have
hearts that bleed, not only for your compatriots, but also for the hard
working immigrant? [4]

Besides, computer science grads are fine anyway. I know it feels besieged if
you're working in the field, but it's really not.[5-10] There are more
pressing problems than protecting one of the safest bachelor-only disciplines
available.

[1]
[http://hdr.undp.org/sites/default/files/nhdr_migration_gn.pd...](http://hdr.undp.org/sites/default/files/nhdr_migration_gn.pdf)

[2]
[http://ufdc.ufl.edu/UF00087158/00001/7j](http://ufdc.ufl.edu/UF00087158/00001/7j)

[3]
[https://www.tsl.texas.gov/ref/abouttx/secession/2feb1861.htm...](https://www.tsl.texas.gov/ref/abouttx/secession/2feb1861.html)

[4]
[http://econlog.econlib.org/archives/2006/03/are_lowskilled.h...](http://econlog.econlib.org/archives/2006/03/are_lowskilled.html)

[5] [http://www.bls.gov/ooh/computer-and-information-
technology/h...](http://www.bls.gov/ooh/computer-and-information-
technology/home.htm)

[6]
[http://www.npr.org/sections/money/2013/09/10/219372252/the-m...](http://www.npr.org/sections/money/2013/09/10/219372252/the-
most-and-least-lucrative-college-majors-in-1-graph)

[7]
[http://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2010/jul/15/employm...](http://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2010/jul/15/employment-
statistics-university-graduates)

[8] [http://www.bloomberg.com/bw/articles/2014-07-10/college-
grad...](http://www.bloomberg.com/bw/articles/2014-07-10/college-graduates-
who-majored-in-most-tech-fields-and-health-care-during-the-recession-had-
better-outcomes-than-business-students)

[9]
[http://www.studentsreview.com/unemployment_by_major.php3?sor...](http://www.studentsreview.com/unemployment_by_major.php3?sort=Rate)

[10] [http://www.bls.gov/ooh/computer-and-information-
technology/s...](http://www.bls.gov/ooh/computer-and-information-
technology/software-developers.htm)

------
davidxray
As someone who worked through the H1B system and is now a US Citizen, I can
say that it’s a decent program when executed properly.

H1Bs are temporary high-skilled workers who are hired when domestic workers
are unavailable and can also get sponsored to become permanent US residents if
the company is still unable to find domestic workers after a few years. In my
case, I had to relocate to a small town in Kentucky for the job where (at the
time) no American tech worker was willing to move to. I was essentially hired
out of frustration on part of the hiring manager. I had other job offers but
decided to go with that company because of it was a reputed (Fortune 500)
company.

That said, numerous issues plague the program:

1\. I noticed my fellow H1B co-workers who were Indian were paid much lower
than I was. (I’m not Indian and I was paid market-rate). I’m not sure why but
it seems companies think Indian workers are more desperate and will take less
money.

2\. H1B workers have absolutely no power. Your boss/company really does OWN
you. You have little room for negotiating raises/work
environment/responsibilities/schedule etc. If your boss doesn’t like you, you
might end up in legal limbo in a few years.

3\. H1B workers are constantly worried about the company’s bottom
line/future/decisions. It’s very difficult to change jobs and a
layoff/termination automatically invalidates the visa. Even if a H1B worker
manages to switch jobs, the time limit on the visa doesn’t reset and the new
working conditions might actually be worse than previous company. This lack of
mobility also has a dampening effect on the H1B worker’s career. Six years is
a long time in the tech industry and H1B workers usually end up stuck with old
technological stacks because they were unable to move on to jobs with better
opportunities.

4\. Many companies bring H1B workers on board with promises of sponsoring a
green card knowing fully well that they have no intention of ever doing so.
Some companies tell H1B workers that they have filed an LCA or are working on
some other step without actually doing anything. Reason: It costs money.

5\. Some companies ONLY hire H1Bs even if domestic workers are available. This
is because they can get away with paying SOME H1B workers lower wages and H1B
workers are more easily controlled. Also, some unscrupulous managers use the
H1B system to hire their friends and relatives who are absolutely unqualified
for the job. I can’t prove it, but I’m sure their is a shadow market where
some managers demand BRIBES from H1B applicants in illegal pay-for-play hiring
schemes.

6\. H1B workers have been brought in by companies (like the Disney case) to
replace American workers. Sometimes, the domestic workers are forced to train
their replacements before being laid off. This has caused a lot of resentment
towards H1B workers.

7\. The Indian “Consultancy” companies: Tata, Wipro, Cognizant, etc. — Too
much to talk about. These companies are the worst offenders and chronic
abusers of the H1B system. I’d implore both American workers and H1B
applicants to stay away from any company that has a large swath of H1B workers
— read: INDIAN

~~~
akshat_h
I am confused by one thing here. If you and other person had similar jobs, why
was the other H1B approved, considering legally they are required to pay
comparably? I keep hearing Tata, Wipro, Cognizant as the main culprits, but
being a Grad student in the US, I know quite a few Indian students(being one
myself as well) and none of them aspires or even thinks about working for
these companies.

~~~
davidxray
The other H1B gets approved because:

1\. The government mostly rubber-stamps H1B applications.

2\. The company is required to pay "prevailing wage" which isn't necessarily
market rate.

3\. Companies play fast and loose with titles. They can present "Computer
Programmer" as the title in the application but in reality the worker is a
Linux Kernel hacker.

~~~
akshat_h
That seems worse for the actual candidates. With the lottery being what it is,
there is I think almost 50% chance of a candidate getting H1B.

Also for prevailing wage, I checked what a Computer Programmer should make in
SF. I got these as results

Area Title:San Francisco-San Mateo-Redwood City, CA

Metropolitan Division

OES/SOC Code:15-1131

OES/SOC Title:Computer Programmers

GeoLevel:1

Level 1 Wage:$31.26 hour - $65,021 year

Level 2 Wage:$39.56 hour - $82,285 year

Level 3 Wage:$47.86 hour - $99,549 year

Level 4 Wage:$56.16 hour - $116,813 year

Mean Wage (H-2B):$47.86 hour - $99,549 year

That doesn't seem bad, so I am guessing these companies are doing some really
"creative" fudging up to give low wages. For reference the url for finding
this for other jobs and locations is
[http://www.flcdatacenter.com/OESWizardStart.aspx](http://www.flcdatacenter.com/OESWizardStart.aspx)

EDIT: Formatting

