

Ask YC: Can Hackers and Non-Hackers co-found? - wumi

There have been many debates over this on HN.<p>For every Steve Jobs and Apple, there is Bill Gates, Brin and Page, Zuckerberg and a host of others.<p>What's the final conclusion and what's the data say?
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wallflower
I think you can make the argument that the "non-hackers" are hackers in the
sense that they know and understand the technology of social dynamics,
psychology, relationships, selling. And sometimes they are unaware of how they
do what they do - they just do it - like some hackers. As Joe Kraus said in
his Startup School lecture, it's easier to start a startup in 2006 than in
1996 but it's still as hard to start a business.

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webwright
Totally depends on the startup. What's the core problem of your solution? If
it's technical, you need hackers. If it's user-experience ("we'll make a
better solution because the current solutions are clunky!"), you need a UX
god. If it's a sales/distribution twist, then you need a smart sales/biz guy.

There are certainly scenarios where a non-hacker will be valuable. But for 90%
of the startups I see on HN (and elsewhere), someone who is not a "builder"
(code, design, copywriting) is a non-critical element for the first phase of a
company.

 _IF_ something starts to take off, that can change. Google hired Eric
Schmidt, and I hear that Mark Zuckerburg wants a biz CEO. But until it starts
to take off (which is the hard part), a non-builder is non-critical. Not
useless, mind you-- just less valuable than the alternative. Better than
nothing, though!

Oh, and saying that Steve Jobs is a non-hacker is ridiculous. He certainly
evolved into something else, but the guy started out going to homebrew
computer clubs, working as a technician at Atari, and attending after school
lectures at HP.

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klein_waffle
man lex | grep Schmidt

Eric Schmidt is a hacker who became a manager. The executive search at Google
was dreadfully prolonged because Larry & Sergey wouldn't accept someone
without technical experience.

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mst
Well, we (<http://www.shadowcat.co.uk/>) were founded by me, who plays the
"lead hacker" role, and a friend of mine who handles graphic design,
marketing, client contact, accounts, contracts etc.

Basically he provides the business half of the "developer abstraction layer"
that Joel Spoelsky describes (we also have an extremely talented sysadmin who
handles that half) so I and my team can get on with building software.

Seems to work pretty well for us, but we're bootstrapped so we've been
building a stable consultancy business first to fund product development and
therefore maybe aren't an example of the style you're looking for.

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bmaier
I think where you run into problems is when one founder doesn't have any
knowledge of the other founders areas of expertise i.e. the Bus Dev guy and
The Programmer.

The ideal setup seems to be a designer with a bit of marketing skill and
business acumen (doesn't have to be huge amount) and a coder.

These two can leave each other alone to work when it matters but they also
have the crossover skills to help each other work through a problem.

A good designer on the web is going to know a little bit about coding and a
good coder is going to know a little about design.

Its a nice mix and you dont run into any bike shed problems where you have 4
different people checking out the same code.

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chrisconley
As a single hacker founder, I would love to have a non-hacker co-founder.

Founders that can compliment each other is the way to go.

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zearles
For PrettySocial, I write code, and my partner edits the content (which is
targeted towards women). It's worked pretty well so far.

<http://www.prettysocial.net/>

~~~
doubleplus
"Top Stories:

Angelina Jolie's Remote Controlled Vibrating Panties (8 comments) 25"

I don't know... looks like it might have a wider appeal. :)

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dkokelley
If you're going to go at it with a non-hacker, I suggest finding someone who
at least understands the process (maybe one who has written even a small
program) so that he will have a respect for what the hacker half does.
Likewise I think it would seem easy for a hacker to underestimate the
importance of a salesperson, designer, marketer, business developer, etc., so
take the time to understand and appreciate this aspect of your startup. In the
end, you'll both learn a lot from each other, and you'll have a well rounded
and balanced set of founders.

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xirium
I've worked for two non-hackers who sold a successful start-up. They had very
differing skills. One done the accounts. One was a saleman. Neither was
completely in charge.

In the case of Jobs and Woz, its easy to see that they have differing skills.
However, Jobs had to offer a very complimentary set of skills because he
couldn't contribute directly in the creative process.

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mixmax
"However, Jobs had to offer a very complimentary set of skills because he
couldn't contribute directly in the creative process."

Come again??? Can you explain exactly how, according to you, Jobs couldn't
contyribute to the creative process? I simply don't get it.

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xirium
In the 8 bit days, Woz designed the hardware and wrote the firmware. Jobs made
sales. In the 16 bit days, Jobs specified design constraints, such as form
factor and noise limits which techies solved. Jobs would have been involved in
technical decisions in a managerial capacity only. There is a creative process
in marketing and suchlike, but Jobs wasn't coding or designing components.

That's the issue under discussion. Is it worthwhile to have a non-programmer
as a co-founder? Yes, if they have very complimentary skills.

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a-priori
My startup has 4 full-timers, of which I'm the only hacker. There's a (damned
good) web designer and two business people. The business people and myself are
the "co-founders". This reflects the nature of our business, which is largely
technical, but has a significant non-technical component.

So far so good, but we're still just getting off the ground.

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mattmaroon
Like all vague, sweeping questions of this sort, the answer is it depends.
There's a hell of a lot of non-hacking work to do in a startup, how much
exactly depends on the particular one.

But any non-hackers probably should have done at least some programming, so
they at least have a feel for the strengths/limitations of their technology.

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iamelgringo
My wife and I will be co-founding after school's done this summer. I'm the
hacker, she not so much. But, she's pretty handy with a database, and an
organizational genius. She's worked in high tech before, too.

On the plus side, we know that we work together well.

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cnu
I think there must be (atleast) another pair of eyes which doesn't think in
terms of bits and bytes. I am not a good web designer (I hate picking colors)
and I prefer to ask someone else (definetely a non-hacker) the layouts and
color combinations.

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pistoriusp
I've got a non-hacker cofounder. He quality controls the project and helps me
move the it in the right direction (He works in the industry we're targeting).
He's also chasing down clients.

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systems
what we've got here is faiiiiilure to communicate!

From Guns'n'Roses civial war song, in my opinion, as long you manage to
communicate nicely, you won't have problems.

Most ppl fail, to communicate! Hackers Non-Hackers alike.

Ultimately, wikis, git and the plethora of other IT tools, are here to create
better communication, they are social tools, and theory behind them is social,
... i mean, they try to solve many social issues, of trust, communication etc
...

Your greatest enemy is pride, just because others dont have your skills,
doesnt mean they are ignorant and useless. Be modest ... listen and always try
to be non confrontational

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joe24pack
>what we've got here is faiiiiilure to communicate!

>From Guns'n'Roses civial war song, in my opinion, ...

Sorry, but the Guns'n'Roses got it from the movie "Cool Hand Luke".

[1967 - The phrase is first used in the motion picture Cool Hand Luke,
delivered by actor Strother
Martin]([http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/What_we've_got_here_is_failure_...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/What_we've_got_here_is_failure_to_communicate))

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rms
Sure, but it depends on personal circumstances.

