
Move to the Big City (2018) - temon
https://sivers.org/city
======
jborichevskiy
This stood out:

> So why do I hate to admit this?

> Because I love how the internet has made it possible for anyone to get
> successful, anywhere. I love the idea of living in the middle of nowhere,
> surrounded by nature, yet being connected to the world.

> But still, when I look at the facts, it’s impossible to deny. Living in the
> big city, and being where everything is happening, will help your career the
> most. Being anywhere else won’t hurt you, but it won’t help.

Though I'm in NYC right now, I plan to leave eventually. Ideally I think I'd
want a remote cabin in Montana with a high speed internet connection. Wake up,
go for a 2 hour hike, code a few hours, watch the sunset, read, sleep. Sounds
like some sort of paradise.

Realistically though I'll probably end up somewhere closer to civilization.

But it's a shame remote work isn't quite at that level to completely make
physical location irrelevant. Maybe someday.

~~~
sjroot
Are you me? Also in NYC and also dream of a quiet place in Montana. My team
has actually had discussions about Montana specifically.

What is it about Montana?

~~~
yepthatsreality
NYers flooding MT would be worse than OHians flooding NYC.

~~~
slimed
I'm willing to bet you wouldn't refer to other groups as "flooding" NYC. Why
do New Yorkers find it acceptable to say such things about Midwesterners?

~~~
thrower123
Because you can make fun of mostly-white yokels without the PC police coming
for your scalp the way they would if you were to criticize the influx of any
other demographic.

~~~
slimed
Au contraire, you'll be celebrated for it!

------
topkai22
I’m always very conscious of the selection bias of the people writing these
types of articles. They tend to have succeeded in a major city, but as the
author says:

> “It’s not casual. It’s not a place for a comfortable work/life balance. It’s
> fueled by ambition. People go go go.”

What of all those, and they will likely be most people, that don’t thrive in
that environment. Are they getting a net benefit moving to a major metro? I
really don’t know the answer there. The statistics are messy. All other things
being equal, those of my friends that moved back to my hometown after college
do not seem less happy or satisfied with their lives than those who went to
major metros.

------
rhizome31
As a software developer who has lived in London for a couple of years, this
didn't work for me. London was great for having fun but in terms of career it
wasn't very interesting. The work atmosphere wasn't great and the problems
weren't very interesting. I've found better opportunities in medium-sized
cities. Just a personal experience, of course.

------
Antoninus
A year ago, I moved to the suburbs of Saigon from NY to work remotely. My cost
of living is 1000usd</month + rent, utilities, food, motorbike/gas, etc. While
my savings have improved, I do miss socializing with other developers which in
turn creates future opportunities. The isolation is great if you're looking to
work in a distraction free environment and relax.

I'm a bit torn as I consider myself a mid-level developer at 7 years of
experience. At the moment, I'm looking to relocate anywhere to be surrounded
with senior engineers who can push me to the next level.

With that being said, I'll probably go back to the remote life when I feel
more comfortable with my skills.

------
discordance
I work 90% remote at the moment, and the only thing stopping me from moving to
a smaller town is the fear of not having a community or friends nearby.

It’s so important to have in person human contact, especially with remote
work, that Montana or wherever will always be a dream. Would love some ideas
on how to solve this if anyone has any!

~~~
coldtea
> _I work 90% remote at the moment, and the only thing stopping me from moving
> to a smaller town is the fear of not having a community or friends nearby._

OTOH, you can have more community and more friends nearby in a smaller town --
and actually get to see them and do things with them.

But you need to take the time to make friends with those people. Still I know
several people who moved to a small town, small island even, and made great
friends with the local community, even people from an entirely different
country. YMMV.

~~~
danenania
Right, I think you just need to be more willing to make friends with people
who don't necessarily share many of your interests.

The great thing about a big city, at least in theory, is that whatever sort of
weirdo you are, you can probably find a group of people that sees it as a
positive rather than a negative. On the flip side, many people in cities are
very busy and don't have much room for new relationships, so it can be hard to
establish close friendships, the kind you can hang out with on a daily or
weekly basis, without some catalyst like school or (non-remote) work.

In a smaller town, people will have time for you and it's easier to integrate
into a community, but you may have to water yourself down a bit to fit in.
It's tough to have it all!

~~~
coldtea
> _Right, I think you just need to be more willing to make friends with people
> who don 't necessarily share many of your interests._

A, yes, that part is crucial. E.g. a common interest in just life, nature, and
common stuff: small talk, food, drink, some games, etc, sure helps.

------
aserafini
My take on this is that the network effects of living in a big city vs. small
town actually increased post-internet. Ie. the value proposition of the
physical city network is even greater with internet.

One obvious example is on demand food delivery. In a small town you still just
get one or two places delivering food, the internet cannot solve that.

But in a city you’re immediately connected to every provider in your radius.
It was technically true before but required walking around, local knowledge
etc. The internet removed that upfront investment and made the physical
network available to anyone immediately.

~~~
ipnon
A model of the net increase in network size pre- and post-internet would be
interesting but I don't know of any.

------
GhettoChild
This is news? People have been doing that for thousands of years.

~~~
temon
yeah, I don't think it's new. But I think we can work remotely nowadays
(especially for software developers). I post it here because I want to know is
it still appropriate for now?

------
ghostwriter
Paul Graham had it right in his "Cities and Ambition" note:

 _Does anyone who wants to do great work have to live in a great city? No; all
great cities inspire some sort of ambition, but they aren 't the only places
that do. For some kinds of work, all you need is a handful of talented
colleagues._

[http://www.paulgraham.com/cities.html](http://www.paulgraham.com/cities.html)

~~~
Vesuvium
Further from the same article:

You don't have to live in a great city your whole life to benefit from it. The
critical years seem to be the early and middle ones of your career. Clearly
you don't have to grow up in a great city. Nor does it seem to matter if you
go to college in one.

The Impressionists show the typical pattern: they were born all over France
(Pissarro was born in the Carribbean) and died all over France, but what
defined them were the years they spent together in Paris.

------
coldtea
> _But still, when I look at the facts, it’s impossible to deny. Living in the
> big city, and being where everything is happening, will help your career the
> most._

Will it help your happiness? Will your goals and career benefit humanity one
iota?

------
octokatt
Does anyone else read these on impulse, then remember they don't want to make
it big?

I want to make it to Comfortable, by working on interesting but non-stressful
problems, reach FI at forty, then enjoy my family and work at hobby research.

Am I alone here?

------
atum47
I recently accept a job on a big city. I'm excited to see what happens next.
I've worked on big cities before, but mostly remote. I only went to the
company once every 3 months. This time I'm actually moving.

------
raverbashing
I think the idea is sound, though the list of cities is very US (culturally)
centric.

For an IT audience, Nashville is probably irrelevant, also it assumes there's
"no live" outside of those cities.

------
pimmen
For tech, that list of cities could be changed drastically (Dublin, Berlin,
Stockholm and Tel Aviv are major tech centers, for example) but the gist of it
is very true.

------
deanCommie
The list is somewhat surprising for 2018

Tokyo? Beijing? Shanghai?

~~~
whoisjuan
Derek Sivers is the founder of CD Baby which is one of the largest music
licensing companies. He is talking about big cities in the context of his
industry which is Music and Entertainment.

~~~
flatline
Why not Nashville? Austin?

~~~
whoisjuan
He did mention Nashville, I think.

------
cryptica
I think in terms of learning it's true up to a point. I don't think it makes
sense to move to a big city for financial reasons though.

You'd think it creates a competitive environment where the best talent rises
to the top but this is not the case.

What I've found instead is that the environment is competitive to the point
that everyone is focused on politics and social manipulation; for example
trying to claim credit for other peoples' work to get promoted or making
friends with the founders. Top level managers are not capable of identifying
talent and seeing though all the political BS; they fall for it over and over
again but it doesn't matter because they're friends with millionaire investors
so they can keep raising money even after their company fails.

It feels like behind every powerful person in a position of power, there is
either a rich friend or a rich daddy.

That's why I'm into blockchain now, I'm tired of this nepotism. I want to
participate in creating a new industry in which human nature can be factored
out as much as possible.

~~~
rmah
Sorry, but nepotism, politics and connections are even more important in the
cryptocurrency/blockchain industry than in traditional tech or even finance.
In crypto/blockchain it's ALL about who you know. And the lack of good
regulation means that good contacts can get your firm advantages that would
literally be illegal in the traditional finance world. I guess the only real
distinction is that the industry is spread out more and not centered in one or
two cities.

~~~
cryptica
>> it's ALL about who you know

If you want a hyped up ICO, yes it has been like this and that's why there are
so many crappy projects with a high market cap right now but this is changing.

Ultimately, cryptocurrencies which are backed by real value are the ones which
are going to stick around. Right now the ecosystem is mostly still founded on
hype but all that hyped up money needs somewhere to go so there are a lot of
opportunities even if you have very limited connections.

------
draw_down
He’s right: big cities are not good places for a nice work/life balance and a
nice lifestyle. They are places for serious people. But I don’t like being
serious, and I don’t like working out of balance with the rest of my life.

------
notadoc
> "(Nashville, Paris, Seoul, or Tokyo only count if you’re limiting yourself
> to those markets.)"

LOL, as if Nashville is even vaguely comparable to the other three?

~~~
jmathai
The author was in the music business and Nashville is very influential in that
industry. That's probably why it was added.

