
The Price of Nice Nails - potench
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/05/10/nyregion/at-nail-salons-in-nyc-manicurists-are-underpaid-and-unprotected.html
======
com2kid
If the nail salon owners all followed the law and paid their employees
properly, the average price of service would increase. The race to the bottom
is only because of en masse violations of the law.

The state needs to do their job. One year and a thousand or so lawsuits
(exactly 0% chance the state has the resources to do this) and the problem
will go away. Manicures will end up costing $20 instead of $10, and workers
will be able to live like people and not animals.

~~~
mason240
>Manicures will end up costing $20 instead of $10, and workers will be able to
live like people and not animals.

Are you accounting for the loss of customers that doubling the prices would
cause?

~~~
jlarocco
Who cares? Manicures are just about the most useless status symbol product
there is.

The ladies doing the manicures will be unemployed, but since they're not
getting paid now, they'll actually be better off.

They need to skip the lawsuits and throw the owners in prison. Working for
weeks with no pay is practically slavery.

Edit: Now that I think about it, why isn't the IRS looking into this, too? I
have a hard time believing the owners aren't paying their workers, but are
paying proper taxes and withholdings for them.

~~~
colechristensen
The IRS is underfunded as a means of inhibiting enforcement because the
dysfunctional Congress is unable to make law. The IRS only goes after
lucrative targets (big fines and large back taxes) and cannot afford to
enforce the law.

Why? The electorate is stupid and being made stupid by eagerly consuming media
selling information entertainment, acting on the political and financial will
of their owners.

Partisan bullshit, and the willingness to participate in it by citizens on
_every_ side, is the major threat to our democracy.

------
stegosaurus
The posts here are quite funny to read for me.

Specifically the idea of 'maybe this job shouldn't exist, if it can't pay a
fair wage'.

Minimum wage is really not a fair wage. In the UK, double minimum is getting
close in some cities. In London, triple minimum wage is still essentially a
child's salary, good for renting and playing around but not for building an
actual life - state assistance is essentially required.

If you eliminate jobs that do not pay fairly (I think that the faint
possibility of ever being able to do anything but work and/or suck on the
State's teat is a reasonable definition of fair), there will either be nothing
left for most of the population, or huge wage increases. I don't know which. I
actually think it's worth the gamble, then we can actually deal with what
unemployment (and the euphemism-tastic 'underemployment') actually means.

~~~
Bostonian
"Fair wage" is a meaningless concept. If one person is willing to pay $X for a
job and another person is willing to do it for that price, other people should
butt out.

~~~
xnull6guest
The problem is when there are confluences of conditions that systemically
prevent someone (or their 'class') from having the mobility to exit their
condition, even when they have enough merit to otherwise warrant it.

Take for example indentured servitude, or third world sweat shops. Sure,
working for $0.28 a day in a (dangerous, unsanitary) factory is better than
subsistence farming. But if this opportunity is enough to feed a family but
not enough to lift the family from a condition whereby it can exit from
needing to work in the factory, how is this so very different from perpetuated
servitude?

Take serfs. While serfs were 'bound to the land', the condition of the serf
was voluntary and mutually beneficial: Wikipedia reads "Serfs who occupied a
plot of land were required to work for the Lord of the Manor who owned that
land, and in return were entitled to protection, justice and the right to
exploit certain fields within the manor to maintain their own subsistence."

Certainly it was a better deal for the serf to labor underneath a lord than
live in the wild - especially since all fertile lands had already been
captured by lords. And indeed, you see the language and argumentation during
the time period repeat a variant of your argument: both the serf and the lord
benefit from the situation and therefore it is good. Similarly, whites made
similar arguments about black slavery throughout the history of American slave
trade.

But a situation where both parties have no benefit by changing their 'local'
stratety by small amounts represents a local Nash-like equilibria at the best
- and not anything one could argue is a 'global' optimum. And in fact, if one
truly buys that markets are meritocratic, one should be willing to subsidize
the equality of opportunity so that as many people start off on an even
footing as possible.

In sum this is to say that, like Braess's Paradox, locally rational decisions
lead to local but not global maxima - whose gaps can be seen to be gigantic
from history. When we discuss opportunities for labor, wealth and quality of
life, this becomes an ethics question.

It is not so clear, at least to me, that the principle of trade (especially
given its other major problems not covered here) should be prioritized over
ethical considerations. Quandaries like this do lead us to ask what sorts of
wages and opportunities are 'fair'.

~~~
stegosaurus
The idea of mobility is a warping of the term 'fair'. It assumes the existence
of a system in which people are poor and rich, it's a priori unfair,
regardless of whether movements are possible.

I am (was...) working class. I had the 'merit' to rise.

Do you understand what that means?

It means that completely randomly I was blessed with a talent. I also put a
bit of work in (the willpower to do so is arguably a talent in itself).

So I win (in a limited sense. I'm not really well off, just relatively). And
my schoolfriends do not.

How is that 'fair'? How does that concept of merit make any sense at all? It
may result in more efficient allocation of resources, but only within the
current system that ensures most people have restricted autonomy. In a
reasonable world the difference between a lower and higher paying job would be
toys, not serfdom vs. fu money.

The issue is not individual decisions of how to allocate capital, about wages
being 'low' or 'high'.

The issue is wealth and ownership and the huge differentials. Especially on
basic necessities. Ownership is useful and probably something we desire, but
the ability for groups to monopolise/oligopolise the necessities of life (e.g.
land) and then use force to defend them against people who need them is
broken.

Worker lives in a flat, landlord owns the flat, the landlord owns a fraction
of the workers' labour. Why should they need supernormal amounts of merit in
order to escape that situation? Why should they need to be above average in
order to live the life they already do but with the exploitation removed? It
makes no sense.

~~~
xnull6guest
I think we're trying to say the same thing. I am not suggesting that anyone
should need supernormal amounts of merit to escape their condition.

~~~
stegosaurus
Probably.

I think what frustrates me is the idea of there even being a 'condition'.

It sort of makes sense globally. But in Western countries we can house
everyone by just shuffling wealth about a bit, literally just writing words on
paper. But we don't. To the rich money is a video game, to the poor it is a
ball and chain...

------
danso
Kind of off-topic, but recently there was a front-page post here on
Vietnamese-Americans' dominance of the nail salon industry, which is what I
think of when I think of the manicure business, too. Though come to think of
it, in New York, I rarely saw any Vietnamese-owned salons:

[http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-32544343](http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-32544343)

~~~
glitch273
Probably depends on which coast youre in. West coast and California is
probably Vietnamese and east coast and new York is Korean.

~~~
bane
Around D.C. it's a mix (same with Barbers)

It helps to have the 3rd highest concentration of Koreans in the U.S. and a
large Vietnamese population in Northern Virginia. Go down one street and
there's nothing but Vietnamese nail and hair businesses. Go down another and
you'll find Koreans.

------
analyst74
I've done below-minimum-wage jobs, and I'm grateful for them, as someone who
just didn't know what all the helps are (or not qualified to get help, like
those illegal immigrants), where to find jobs and what are available. Those
jobs prevented me from starving, gave me confidence, and eventually lead to
better paying jobs.

Although it would suck if I were illegal immigrant and got stuck on one of
those jobs, which this article seems to hint. We need to figure out a way to
treat illegal immigrants as normal human beings instead of forcing them into
urban equivalent of subsistence farming.

Maybe not quite handing out citizenship freely like some of the troubled
European countries, but there should be opportunities and hopes to get out of
survival mode if they worked hard for it.

------
clamprecht
The worst thing has to be the fumes. Anytime I walk by a nail salon, I hold my
breath. I can't imagine being in one all day, every day.

~~~
dba7dba
I was just in a Costco tire center. Man those guys at the cash register in the
big room with tires are breathing in some nasty smell all day.

~~~
function_seven
Sorry, but you're wrong :) The smell of tire shops is awesome.

(But then again, I also like the smell of poorly-maintained diesel engine
exhaust.)

------
zokier
Somehow I was expecting to read about artisanal fasteners disrupting the
industry. I suppose the actual article makes more sense.

------
dba7dba
While I agree about the exploitation and breaking laws is bad, every single
one of us in US is guilty of benefiting from slave labor.

The article got me thinking and I did some searching. A worker in Chinese
factory assembling $700 iphone makes about $500 a month salary. No tips.
Working 60 hours a week.

~~~
brc
The dollar amount doesn't matter. What matters is if that income is sufficient
to lead a decent life (shelter, food, leisure time, keeping children in
education). Unless you know that, you can't comment on their salary.

If hey he Chinese person is happy with their job, and you're happy with your
iPhone, no real harm is being done.

By putting a fantastic piece of hardware in your hand, at a pretty reasonable
price, it allows you to be more productive, thus leaving you with more to
spend on other purchases. It also enables an entire ecosystem, allowing other
people to be productive, and so on.

All these things are infinitely better than the Chinese worker not having that
job, and you not having an iPhone.

~~~
dba7dba
"All these things are infinitely better than the Chinese worker not having
that job, and you not having an iPhone."

And all these manicurists would be doing something far worse working as nail-
techs.

And the Chinese person is not happy. There were tons of articles about
suicides among the workers. I'm sure you read those?

And the lower/middle class ladies paying $20 instead of $100 for a nail
treatment has $80 to spend in the expensive city called NYC.

So we agree going after the nail shops is frivilous?

------
alexggordon
Well researched and typed article. This is a little tangential, and maybe I'm
just now noticing it, but as of late the New York Times seems to have
drastically shifted where it's journalistic effort is going. I've always been
heavily influenced by Aaron Swartz thoughts on news[0], but as of late the NYT
has been directly countering the primary complaint of Aaron, that "none of
these stories have relevance to my life". While I don't get my nails done,
there have been a significant amount of stories lately that I can directly
relate to that have been front[1][2] and center[3][4] of the NYT, and HN.

I've never been that big of a fan of the NYT to be honest, but it really seems
that the NYT has made (at least a digital) shift away from scare tactics, and
un-relatable news. The first thing I thought of is that this was driven by a
campaign or organization (an attempt to saturate HN with NYT articles) but
outside of a few regular posters in the last month, it doesn't seem too
irregular[5]. However, it is odd that the _whoishiring account (I know it's
not official), posted one.

Outside of the conspiracy theories, what I do like about the articles is the
long form dedication to researching a topic, visualizing some interesting
portions of it, relating it to the reader, and making sure it's interesting
and meaningful. This article in particular make me look at nail solons, which
I drive past everyday, in a very different light.

[0]
[http://www.aaronsw.com/weblog/hatethenews](http://www.aaronsw.com/weblog/hatethenews)

[1]
[http://www.nytimes.com/2015/05/08/business/dealbook/bitcoin-...](http://www.nytimes.com/2015/05/08/business/dealbook/bitcoin-
exchange-receives-first-license-in-new-york-state.html)

[2] [http://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/14/business/owner-of-
gravity-...](http://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/14/business/owner-of-gravity-
payments-a-credit-card-processor-is-setting-a-new-minimum-
wage-70000-a-year.html)

[3] [http://www.nytimes.com/2015/05/03/magazine/want-a-steady-
inc...](http://www.nytimes.com/2015/05/03/magazine/want-a-steady-income-
theres-an-app-for-that.html)

[4] [http://www.nytimes.com/2015/05/02/business/dealbook/ex-
goldm...](http://www.nytimes.com/2015/05/02/business/dealbook/ex-goldman-
programmer-found-guilty.html)

[5] [http://pastebin.com/j7m8MD5r](http://pastebin.com/j7m8MD5r)

~~~
disantlor
In this particular case it's a privilege that this article has no direct
relevance to your (or my) life and it's good to be reminded of that.

------
joe5150
I've never seen an article offered in English, Korean, Chinese and Spanish all
at once. Is this more common than I know or does the Times just think this is
a really important piece?

~~~
disantlor
The idea is to include the very people who's exploitation the article
describes in the conversation.

~~~
joe5150
That's more or less what I thought as well, but I've never seen them do that
before, even for other articles about non-English-speaking ethnic populations.
The fact that translators were already involved in so much of the reporting
process[0] might have something to do with it, though.

[0] [http://www.nytimes.com/times-insider/2015/05/07/something-
ro...](http://www.nytimes.com/times-insider/2015/05/07/something-rotten-in-
the-state-of-nail-salons/)

------
Uhhrrr
I read the whole article and didn't see any figures on how much they make in
tips - only that tips were "meager" and "frequently skimmed".

Given that these women aren't doing this for love, I have to imagine that
having a steady clientele allows them to beat minimum wage. But the article
makes it hard to tell.

~~~
ramy_d
My impression from the article was that they only matched or beat minimum
during sandal season. Didn't see any figures though. Still pretty bad.

------
randyrand
There is a huge misunderstanding of economics in this article.

Companies can not and will not pay more than the market wage. Nor should they.
It is the governments responsibility to make up the difference between the
market wage, and a living wage, not the companies.

There a numerous benefits to doing it this way. A negative income tax.

~~~
com2kid
A market wage can only be set if there is equal negotiating possible between
employee and employer.

In the case of a power asymmetry, it is up to the government to bring the
power back into balance.

Granted the reason for the power imbalance is government interference with the
free market to begin with, immigration laws give the employer power over the
employee that would be absent without the fear of deportation.

------
theVirginian
I thought this was like construction nails before I clicked, which is actually
an equally interesting topic according to my friend who owns a contract
business. Apparently it has been harder to guaranteed high quality nails in
recent decades as a result of cheap manufacturing abroad.

------
kijin
The fact that most of these businesses are owned by immigrants and staffed by
even more recent immigrants is a major factor in how they can operate so
blatantly in defiance of the laws.

The article mentions in passing that the Labor Department has a severe
shortage of investigators who can speak the languages the manicurists speak
(mostly Korean and Chinese -- they have more people who can speak Spanish).
But even if they could, what would they find out?

Every major Western city has at least one Korean-run website with an informal
classified section (usually just a forum), where employers proudly announce
below-minimum wages as if they were doing a great favor to the hapless kids
who end up working for them. Ditto for the Chinese, and I'm sure other
immigrant communities have them, too. Why aren't people reporting these ads to
the Labor Department and/or IRS? Yeah, those posts aren't in English, but
nothing a few minutes of Google Translate can't fix.

It's because immigrant kids really have nowhere else to work, with their
abysmal English skills and zero knowledge of the American job market. Many of
them are international students who are at risk of deportation if the
authorities find out that they've been working. A friend or relative probably
introduced them to the nail salon, so if they ever betray their employer, the
friend or relative will be very disappointed and they'll have a hard time
finding another job through that channel ever again.

Moreover, insular communities like Koreatown don't look kindly upon
"traitors". Even though Korea itself has improved by leaps and bounds in
recent years, most Korean communities in large Westerm cities are stuck with
the mentality that early immigrants brought with them 50 years ago. That means
the employer is doing you a totally undeserved favor by offering to hire you
for $3.50/hr, no pay for the first 3 months, and oh, you gotta return the
favor by paying your employer a $100 fee when you start. It's seriously
backward. It would be difficult to get away with shenanigans like that in
Seoul. But in LA, in NYC, nobody questions it. And if you do, good luck
walking around Koreatown with a straight face ever again. Your parents will be
ashamed of you, etc. etc.

Still, there's some good news. Younger Koreans no longer give a shit about
what their parents think an ideal employer-employee relationship should look
like, and they can often just go back to Korea if they aren't happy with life
in America. The Chinese are still suffering massively, as the article
describes at length, because they don't have that luxury. But if an abusive
Korean business owner ever hires a non-immigrant kid, which they increasingly
do because so many American youngsters are out of jobs these days, that's a
ticking time bomb to a massive lawsuit.

The article mentions a Korean nail salon owner who finally got sued and was
ordered to pay $474K. A few weeks ago, a Korean restaurant owner in NYC was
ordered to pay $2.6M to his abused and overworked employees. More of this
needs to happen, and more of it _will_ happen. It's about time the Korean
immigrant community stopped giving a bad reputation to Korea.

------
itsnotlupus
Is it implied that everybody able to read this article has an adblocker
installed?

As I try to scroll through it, the page forcefully takes me back to be at eye
level with one of several video streaming ads at various heights, making
reading the entire article essentially impossible.

