
Why vegan junk food may be even worse for your health - gyre007
https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20200129-why-vegan-junk-food-may-be-even-worse-for-your-health
======
yesenadam
There seemed something fishy about this article. I looked up the first stat
that caught my eye,

> One study found that 25% of vegans had very low blood iron levels, compared
> to 3% of vegetarians and 0% of omnivores.

That just sounded like rubbish – although "one study" has found almost
everything – so I clicked the link to the paper, _Nutrient Intake and Iron
Status of Australian Male Vegetarians_ which turns out to have involved 39
ovolactovegetarians, 25 omnivores, and 10 vegans. 10 - so already the "25% of
vegans" must be nonsense. I couldn't find the 25% figure in the paper, but I
think it comes from this:

> One ovolacto-vegetarian aged 23 years and two vegans aged 41 and 36 years
> had serum ferritin concentrations below 12ng/ml (11, 8 and 10 ng/ml,
> respectively).

At that point I lost interest.

------
lucidguppy
Its almost 100% certain - if your vegan diet looks exactly like a standard
American diet (using substitutes) - you will gain weight unless you're
meticulous about counting calories.

If you want to be healthy on a vegan - do not eat vegan junk food. Being
healthy on a vegan diet means eating whole foods - minimally processed. The
food you eat should be high in fiber, low in fat, and high in water content.
Most of your calories should come from minimally processed starches.

The incomplete protein thing is a myth.

[https://www.forksoverknives.com/the-latest/the-myth-of-
compl...](https://www.forksoverknives.com/the-latest/the-myth-of-
complementary-protein/) Frances Moore Lappé retracted her statement about
incomplete protein.

These articles are essentially Vegan FUD - hoping to get you to worry about
health minutia. It tries to poison the well essentially. A whole food plant
based diet is a great way to maintain your health.

[https://nutritionfacts.org/video/uprooting-the-leading-
cause...](https://nutritionfacts.org/video/uprooting-the-leading-causes-of-
death/)

~~~
bjoli
The incomplete protein comes from one thing: grains are generally.low in
lysine and legumes are generally low in metsomethingine (metionine?). Both are
essential. Eating enough for both during a day will even out (the liver stores
them) unless you are doing a shitload of exercise.

Anyway, you will have to eat really shit food to not get enough protein. I
live in a country with among the world's highest recommended protein intake
(Sweden, 15%E - but anything between 10 and 20 is within recommendations)
which I reach without even trying.

The WHO and American lower limits are impossible to come down to unless you
live on oil and rice or eat ultrashit food.

------
newscracker
I’m willing to sacrifice some karma on this. What a trash article that
selectively picks information (some of it not really true and some of it
easily overcome in today’s world).

Whatever diet you follow, if you don’t care about what you eat or don’t eat
and in which combinations, your health will not be what could be expected for
a person of the same profile who cares about what they eat.

Processed (also called “junk”) foods aren’t going away, whichever diet you
look at. People want convenience. Try telling someone to change their diet to
be different from what they’re used to eating and you’ll find out how
difficult it is (without other motivations, external support, convenience of
picking stuff off the shelves or ordering something, etc.).

Considering the environmental impact of meat (and the current agricultural
systems), and considering that it’s absolutely impossible for everyone to
avoid their supermarkets and convenience foods, these alternatives provide
some kind of stop gap even if they may be unhealthy. Point the drawbacks. Give
feedback to the makers to improve the products. But don’t pretend that the
currently available junk foods (that aren’t vegan) are better overall, all
things considered.

Personally, I avoid processed and junk foods most of the time. I also cook
food by myself almost all the time. But I do indulge once in a while on some
junk food. And I can feel its adverse effects. I’m under no illusion that this
would be the same for others or even possible for others just because I’m able
to do it.

~~~
Thorentis
By eating food that is more unhealthy for you in order to save the planet, it
means that you have valued the planet's health above your own. I find this to
be irrational. I am all for finding the cleanest, most environmentally
friendly way of feeding humans. But if the result is less good for human
consumption, then I am simply substituting one evil for another, and nobody
can take any moral high ground over it.

~~~
ianleeclark
> By eating food that is more unhealthy for you in order to save the planet,
> it means that you have valued the planet's health above your own.

It's entirely possible that these products, in conjunction with a vegan diet,
are better overall than a meat-eating diet with similar junk foods. The
starting point is this: a generally healthier vegan diet vs. a generally less-
healthy omnivorous diet.

> But if the result is less good for human consumption, then I am simply
> substituting one evil for another, and nobody can take any moral high ground
> over it.

If the conversation of veganism vs. eating meat is centered around the
cost/benefit analysis of junk-foods available to both diets, then the moral
distinction between the two has already been overlooked. I really don't think
there's a generally applicable moral framework that doesn't require veganism.

~~~
fennecfoxen
> I really don't think there's a generally applicable moral framework that
> doesn't require veganism.

You know, it is one thing to say that you believe it is best, and argue for it
vigorously. But if you are unable to imagine someone else holding a differing
view in an intellectually and morally self-consistent manner, that says a lot
more about your thought patterns than it does about the intrinsic validity of
a cause.

~~~
hombre_fatal
It's perfectly reasonable to me that some people consider the morality of
veganism as settled as the morality of, say, rape. Especially in a world where
the vast majority of us only eat meat because we were born into it and it
pleasures us.

Frankly, I think the moral superiority of veganism is obvious to most people
and very difficult to argue against. I think a lot of the drama is only the
fallout of our difficulty squaring those morals with our culturally-backed,
deeply-seated, identity-level behavior and our already existing struggle to
control what we eat.

------
nerdponx
Junk food is junk food. It's called "junk" for a reason.

If you're a vegan for health reasons and eating a lot of junk food, you are
missing the point of being vegan for health reasons.

~~~
crucio
Junk vegan food is seen by most as a transition food to allow those that eat
crap food to keep eating crap food, but without the animal abuse and
environmental impact that meat/dairy cause.

Many people have struggled to jump from a traditional western diet straight
into a whole grain plant based diet.

------
perlgeek
This article misses two huge reasons for veganism: global warming and animal
welfare. It doesn't even seem to try represent vegans fairly, which pisses me
off (even though I'm not one).

~~~
KorfmannArno
IMHO the biggest argument is that vegan diet is much less resource-intensive.
Much more people could be fed globally, because per gram of omni food a
multiple of resources (water, soy, space) are used compared to a vegan diet.

------
cageface
I know we interpret very broadly what topics are considered “hacker” news
here. But I, for one, think the topic of nutrition and particularly vegan
nutrition seems to generate a lot more heat than light on HN.

There are plenty of other places online people can go to discuss this. I
wouldn’t mind seeing this site stick a little closer to its hacker roots.

~~~
crucio
I disagree. This is a huge area which is ripe for innovation. Eating crap food
is a huge problem for society and many don't even realise what they are doing
to their bodies or the planet.

~~~
cageface
I’m pretty much vegan myself and have been an advocate for plant based diets
here on HN many times. But the discussions on this topic don’t ever seem to go
anywhere productive here with people mostly talking past each other.

There are plenty of other places people that want to debate this stuff can go.

------
eeZah7Ux
I'm not vegan but this article is junk.

Junk food is well known to be unhealthy.

A lot of animal fats cooked at high temperature are known to be carcinogenic.

There is widespread agreement in nutritional medicine that most people eat too
much meat and not enough fruit and vegetables.

IMO the phrasing "vegan junk food may be even worse" and the whole article
sounds like cherry picking and clickbait.

------
mrob
>Olive oil, on the other hand, is high in high-density lipoproteins (HDL).

Lipoproteins are the fat transport mechanism found in animals. Oil olive, like
all vegan products, does not contain lipoproteins.

~~~
Havoc
>Lipoproteins

Is that a bad thing? Quick google suggests it's associated with inflammation

~~~
mrob
AFAIK dietary lipoproteins have no nutritional relevance. Lipoproteins in your
body are made by your liver to package fats into tiny droplets that can be
transported by your blood. The balance of different types of lipoprotein in
your blood is associated with different health outcomes, and diet influences
the types of lipoproteins produced. Exactly how important any of this is a
contentious subject.

The article probably meant to say that olive oil consumption is associated
with higher HDL production, which is associated with better health outcomes.

------
partyboat1586
I recently read that saturated fat in coconut oil is actually much better for
you than unsaturated fats in regular vegetable oils due to the effect on sugar
metabolism[0]. This seems like a total reversal of what is presented in the
article.

[0][http://raypeat.com/articles/articles/unsuitablefats.shtml](http://raypeat.com/articles/articles/unsuitablefats.shtml)

~~~
partyboat1586
More on coconut oil specifically:
[http://raypeat.com/articles/articles/coconut-
oil.shtml](http://raypeat.com/articles/articles/coconut-oil.shtml)

------
blunte
Any manufactured food will be less healthy than natural foods.

I'm rather suspicious of this article. It smells a bit like a meat industry
funded piece.

Vegans I know are not trying to replace meat with manufactured substitutes.
They eat while foods instead, including spinach and kale, which has a lot of
iron.

~~~
ggm
Did you miss the part where they pointed out vegetable sources are often less
bio available and less well absorbed?

The article is not funded by the meat industry the BBC is not PBS. The article
is talking about a culture where junk food is ubiquitous (the UK) and where
vegan junk food is being touted as a healthy alternative.

~~~
lucidguppy
If you think that the BBC is not affected by the beef/lamb industry in the UK
- I have a bridge to sell you.

The British media pushes gastric bypass surgery before pushing plants.

------
spodek
Using the word "food" even in "junk food" for ultra-processed stuff like these
products seems confusing. I felt a new term would clarify and propose _doof_ ,
"food" backward, which I explain in this podcast episode
[https://shows.acast.com/leadership-and-the-
environment/episo...](https://shows.acast.com/leadership-and-the-
environment/episodes/319-avoid-doof).

Use of the term has spread, used by Dr. Joel Fuhrman, Brooklyn Borough
President Eric Adams, and more.

------
nluux
I think the problem with most vegan dishes in the west is the lack of a
cultural context. Unlike food conglomerates, cultures give an unbiased
generational assessment of what it means to have flavor and health benefits
e.g - vegan burger in america (processed as hell) < vegan dumplings (fresh
leeks, vegetables, garlic). Also as a woman you do face low iron levels
naturally and vegan diets affect how we menstruate.

------
Havoc
I'm sticking to a "most meals vegan" approach for now. Not confident I have
the skills to cover all the nutritional bases with pure vegan

------
WoefullyInept
I personally know several vegans that have had minor health problems because
of their diet. You can eat a very healthy diet as a vegan, the problem is most
people are not educated or motivated enough to get proper variation in their
diet.

Its much easier for the general public to eat a varied diet by not restricting
themselves to veganism.

~~~
KorfmannArno
"Its much easier for the general public to eat a varied diet by not
restricting themselves to veganism."

Which nutrients (micro or macro) would you say most people would be missing if
switching from a omnivore diet to veganism?

~~~
odshoifsdhfs
From memory, protein, B12 vitamin and iron. Again all these can be avoided
with a good understanding of what you are eating while on a vegan diet (buying
fortified foods to get B12 for example, or mixing protein sources).

The other thing which I believe (but no idea if scientifically true) is that
different people (due to genetics or whatnot) respond to diets a bit
differently. A high carb diet for me is a no-no. I get joint pains, tired all
the time, break up in acne all over my scalp (and no, I don't eat grains. I
eat rice or pasta maybe once a month, most/all is from veggies and fruit). If
I go over 100-150g of carbs I have these effects.

My ex-wife had issues with a high protein diet that exarcebated her anxiety
and panic attacks.

------
henearkr
Actually, not having all aminoacids can lead to better aging. Vegan and
vegetarian diet lack of methionine, and in animal models the carence in
methionine boosted their lifespan.

------
lmaoXD66
One of the worst articles I've ever read.

1\. Blood levels of DHA vary by a 30 micromole difference between fish eaters
and other diet groups suggesting ALA conversion is higher when DHA and EPA
intake is lower.(if you are that concerned you can also take a supplement)

2\. Jack fruit is low in protein. Ok eat something else than if you are
looking for protein lmao. Every food contains every essential amino acid just
in varying levels. They are completely wrong on that pointNo evidence you
can't get enough of each on a vegan diet just eat a varied diet and you will
be fine. No one gets there protein from a 1 or 2 sources anyways.

3\. They are spreading dangerous misinformation in their third point. Heme
iron is absorbed "better" than non heme iron because it bypasses the body's
regulatory pathways. The body cannot regulate heme iron when consumed which
can lead to elevated iron levels above what the body needs. This is a problem
because iron is a pro-oxident and these supraphsiolgical levels of iron cause
oxidative stress leading to DNA damage. This is the main reason red meat is
classified as carcinogenic. It is also linked to all sorts of health problems
like arthritis, diabetes, and heart disease. Heme iron is not good for you and
to reccomend meat because of the heme iron content is ill advised at best. As
for deficiency on a vegan diet just make sure you are eating your dark leafy
greens foods like tofu, beans, and lentils also have sizeable iron contents.
No evidence that plant sources are inadequate.

4\. Don't eat out if you are concerned about sodium intake. Pretty much any
food from a restaurant, be that fast food or upscale, contains shockingly high
sodium contents. Not unique to vegan food in the slightest and to paint it
otherwise is blatantly disingenuous.

5\. Cheese is good. No it contains saturated fat and cholesterol even that
spooky sodium depending on the type. But it contains healthy bacteria because
it is fermented. First, that doesn't nullify the other issues concerning
cheese. Second, you can get fermented vegan cheese. Thirdly, the bacteria in
cheese has an extremely high die of rate so the amount is actually quit low in
cheese to begin with and then if you cook it or prepare it in anyway you will
pretty much get no living bacteria into your gut.

6\. Coconut oil is bad. Yes it is and it is worse than other plant based oils
but all oils wheather it be cold pressed olive oil or lard are terrible for
you. Some are worse than others but they all contain saturated fat, which is
proven to raise serum cholesterol levels.

7\. Vegan diets don't contain b12. While lots of processed vegan foods and nut
milks have b12 added it still is not that reliable a source. So yes you should
supplement with b12 if you are a vegan. 1 pill a day is not difficult.

Processed vegan food is not very good for you yes. But neither is the animal
foods it is imitating. No one is eating a beyond burger because it is healthy.
They are eating it because it tastes good. Same as the cow burger. If you are
trying g to be as healthy as possible a whole food vegan diet which excludes
vegan junkfood seems to be the way to go. All if this also ignores the ethical
and environmental reasons for going vegan. Dogshit pseudo science article with
blatant misinformation.

