
China bars millions from travel for 'social credit' offenses - metaphysics
https://www.apnews.com/9d43f4b74260411797043ddd391c13d8
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grzm
Previously (23 hours ago, 144 points, over 180 comments):
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19281192](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19281192)

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honda22
It's going to be interesting over the next 10 years to see the outcomes of
these experiments in terms of long term behavior change in the population.
It's a good time to be a social psychologist in China.

~~~
afpx
Eventually, these policies will eliminate their ability to innovate and
advance.

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scottlocklin
That sounds like wishful thinking. The US certainly does soft punishment of
dissidents and doesn't seem to hurt itself much on the innovation front. I
mean, innovation is definitely lower than before, but still better than
everyone else.

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afpx
What do you mean by soft punishment? The United States is a great place to be
a dissident. Dissident behavior is kind of expected, and historically, they’ve
been iconified.

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scottlocklin
No, actually, other than something like the communist film writers of the
1950s (who obviously had a better publicity department than most), most
American dissidents have been forgotten.

Soft punishment means you don't let them get jobs doing what they're good at.
Like commie writers in the 50s.

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afpx
It’s never an easy life to be a radical against the establishment. But,
there’s plenty of tolerance for such behavior (especially if the behavior is
non-violent). Even during 50s. McCarthyism was a knee jerk reaction to the
Cold War. And, it was quickly rectified.

Our culture encourages thinking differently and speaking out - just consider
our history of music, literature, film, comedy, political dissent, etc.

~~~
scottlocklin
I dunno, sounds like happy talk to me. It's definitely part of the english
speaking people's self conception that "thinking different and speaking out"
is encouraged, but it really isn't any more than in any other society.

Consider the Comstocks, the people who were against US entry into WW-1, the
"brown scare" which started the HUAC, people who are presently against various
wars in the middle east (denounced as "racists" or "Russian sock puppets"), or
various recent coups and attempts at such (ditto); these people were and are
squashed fairly mercilessly by the establishment. The actual bounds of
allowable discussion are narrow and strictly enforced. Hell, US persists in
passing anti-BDS laws that are obviously and egregiously unconstitutional, and
the British throw people in prison for saying things ... on FB.

It's a kinder, gentler system than used by the Chinese, but the end result
isn't any different.

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afpx
I’ll admit that I’m probably biased, and I haven’t had enough experience
living outside of the US to have gained a different perspective.

But, now I’m curious. Which countries are currently and historically known for
being tolerant and accepting of dissent? Honest question - I’ve been
considering retirement lately, and I’m up for a new adventure.

~~~
scottlocklin
If I had to rank them, I think Iceland is the most tolerant country. Assuming
you know how to use the Icelandic-correct way to use Sauna and the Hot tub.
Generally speaking I think smaller countries are better for this; dissent
becomes a judgement on a personal level which is almost always more generous
than on a societal level. In Iceland I heard many times, "I knew Bobby
Fischer, he was a nice man." In America we still think of him as some kind of
demon because ... I dunno, he said things I guess. Reality was he didn't
bother anyone which is more than you can say for virtually any US politicians.

Personally I don't look at things this "what is most tolerant" way. You don't
pick the country which is tolerant and accepting of dissent: this is a futile
exercise. You pick the country which best fits your views.

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yorwba
This is a weird article. It mentions in passing that implementation of a
nationwide system is only planned for 2020 without concrete details yet, but
otherwise pretends as if the blacklists, the experimental credit scores and
the internment camps in Xinjiang are all part of a single "social credit
system".

But the government doesn't need to know someone's credit history to determine
whether they are Uyghur, and forcing people to pay their outstanding fines
before they can buy plane tickets doesn't need a complex score either. Those
factors would probably influence the social credit score once it gets
implemented, but so far they're really separate systems.

Edited to add: a lot of people here are hung up on the idea that if your
friends have a low score, you'll be pulled down with them and end up unable to
buy a plane ticket. But to include someone on the travel blacklist, a judge
needs to order it. That judge is still required to do the Party's bidding, so
don't expect a fair trial; but it's not like there's an automatic system
doling out travel bans for minor violations.

~~~
r3bl
They're planning on rolling out the system nation-wide in 2020 and making it
obligatory, and nobody knows how exactly that system will look like.

However, there's over a dozen of local projects already in place, whose
participation is voluntary (Honest Shanghai[0] is one of them). Offer a couple
of gift cards and cheaper rental cars and there's your test group.

It is a commonly-accepted opinion in China that if you commit a crime in a
city X, you shouldn't be able to go to city Y and repeat the same crime.
Limiting the movement of "criminals" is how you achieve that goal. There are
other techniques as well, like naming-and-shaming "offenders" on public
billboards in their neighborhoods.

[0] Some screenshots and a bit of details available here:
[https://www.sixthtone.com/news/1554/new-app-rates-
shanghai-c...](https://www.sixthtone.com/news/1554/new-app-rates-shanghai-
citizens-honesty)

~~~
Frqy3
With the offer of rewards I can see a similar scheme becoming popular in
Western countries too. I expect it would have a large overlap in users with
Facebook.

It is possible to argue that we already have an informal social enforcement
scheme, with people having lost jobs and being doxxed because of saying the
wrong thing on social media.

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randomacct3847
Honestly I hate how dystopian and alien Western publications make China’s
social credit system when our actual credit system
(Equifax/Experian/Transunion) bars millions of people from getting a cell
phone, renting apartments, even getting a job (why is it even legal or useful
for an employer to check your credit?!).

Point is, preventing people from access to communication, housing, and
employment because of nonexistent or bad credit is much more dystopian than
not being able to buy a plane ticket.

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honda22
On my first long trip to the US in 2001 I couldn't buy a simcard because I
didn't have a credit history. A prepaid plan btw.

"How do I get a credit history if I just landed?"

"Well here's a free credit card application. We'll give you a credit card
immediately. Run around the mall and buy some stuff."

Which I had to do.

Weird country.

~~~
gruez
> couldn't buy a simcard because I didn't have a credit history. A prepaid
> plan btw.

Maybe this was a 2001 thing, but you definitely do not need a credit check for
prepaid plans. Maybe you were also financing your phone?

>"Well here's a free credit card application. We'll give you a credit card
immediately. Run around the mall and buy some stuff."

This sounds suspect as well. I've seen in store applications, but they never
give out cards to use on the spot. Also, I highly doubt that they would give a
credit card to a non-resident with no credit history.

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mchannon
"U.S. Vice President Mike Pence criticized it in October as 'an Orwellian
system premised on controlling virtually every facet of human life.'"

Americans forget we have our own "social credit" system, and I'm not convinced
China's is any worse than ours. Want to sign up for TSA Pre-check? Certify
you're not a convicted felon, otherwise you're ineligible.

Want to coach little league? Background check. Rent an apartment? Background
check. Get a job? Background check.

Want to vote? Depending on the state, you can be imprisoned if you've been
convicted of something (i.e. low social credit score).

And, finally, if you're a defendant, if the other side wants to dig out every
little secret they can find and trot it out before the judge, jury, and/or
public, expect a ding to your social credit for every matter they bring up, in
terms of the outcome you receive.

Before we point out the sawdust in China's eye, we should acknowledge the
plank in our own.

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snarf21
There is a speck of truth to what you say but I think you are conflating
things. There is a difference between keeping convicted pedophiles away from
children and suspecting terrorists off airplanes and the other checks you
list. A lot of the things you cite aren't even government checks but financial
risk assessments of businesses.

Having a friend that tweets anti-government thoughts shouldn't mean you can't
take the train. Drinking alcohol shouldn't prohibit you from applying for a
government job. Playing too much video games shouldn't mean you can't leave
leave your town. A lot of the information about this system and its rollout is
hard to get accurate facts about since everyone on both sides is most
interested in sensationalism. I've never seen any information about _if_ you
can ever improve your social score. Even people who commit crimes have the
about to do their time and work to start over. People need 2nd chances.

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loceng
I'm not arguing for or against this - however I'd feel significantly more
comfortable and at ease for the safety of China's citizens of such programs if
there wasn't also their layer of censorship.

Re: Downvotes - I'm really curious how you're all comprehending what I said as
a negative? Do you think the censorship isn't a worse component of China's
systems? Or are you projecting and think I'm saying more than that? I'm sure
I'll be downvoted further because of how uncivil having a system of downvotes
actually is - lazy and doesn't allow or promote civil conversation, just
promotes someone being able to get a dopamine reward by clicking a down arrow
instead of digging deep into understanding their feelings and putting them
into language, developing critical thinking, and if the impulse isn't strong
enough then you just won't comment - perhaps better off for everyone if you
haven't put enough thought into it yourself - or maybe you'll even share a
perspective or reasoning or point out that my wording wasn't as accurate as I
meant.

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anfilt
I am not sure I could ever advocate the restriction of the right of movement
on "unsocial behavior/associations". That generally only happens to people on
parole who have committed actual crimes. Censorship just makes this even
worse...

So I don't see how you can be so neutral on this. Honestly, a lot things from
what I have read this evaluates should never be in the purview of any
government.

~~~
loceng
I didn't say I'm neutral - I simply said I'm not arguing for against it with
the statement to follow; I didn't want to put a weight one way or the other of
my thoughts/feelings relating to the "social credit" system, in part because
I'm not familiar enough with it.

Also, wasn't me who downvoted you.

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anfilt
Okay how would you feel if your score went down because someone you knew was
"sketchy" (may just be the beliefs) to this system. Like this has made people
cut ties with other people.

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loceng
It's not good. That's what natural trust networks are meant for, and
developing your own skill to protecting yourself, your family, the circle of
people for whom you bring or consider within your circle - of whom you
associate with hopefully without external pressure, although it certainly
happens because of bias or vested interests.

It shows a lack of integrity of the individual, and is a slippery and
dangerous slope as Hitler and and the SS would want or require you to report
your neighbours, etc - and it sounds like this is all without due process. If
the Chinese people knew this literature, this history: I don't know if they do
know, or what version they know, or if they know the similarities between what
China is doing and what Nazi Germany did - which is where the grave concern
for the system/layer of censorship is what I pointed out.

I do have compassion and understand that if merely associating with someone
with a "low social credit" brings your own credit score down, that based on if
people do indeed know and are quiet about not talking negatively about
government, then they may be doing so to protect themselves. They won't
however know then if they distance themselves from these people what happens
to them, if they are taken off in trains to "rehabilitation camps" for
"rehabilitation" or murder.

