
Can You Overdose on Happiness? - dsego
http://nautil.us/issue/60/searches/can-you-overdose-on-happiness
======
vinceguidry
Some 8 years or so ago I experimented with triggering mood changes using a
meditative technique. I had long been doing 'centering' meditative exercises
so that I could bring more focus and clarity to seated practice. I wanted
something more practical that would affect my everyday life.

I eventually settled on two 'states'. A 'centered' state and a 'joyful' one.
Any time I noticed myself outside of one of the two states, I performed the
quick ritual to bring myself back to it.

After a few days of practice, I found myself shockingly good at performing
quick, directed mood shifts, in any situation I found myself in. I settled
into a routine that lasted a few weeks.

It didn't suck, I never 'overdosed'. It was every bit as cool as you can
imagine it being.

However over time I lost the desire to keep it up. Eventually I realized that,
in the end, being able to relate to others requires a certain amount of
empathy, and being blissed-out all the time made it really difficult to do
that.

It might get easier if _everyone around me_ also could stay centered or
joyful, but if I want deep fulfilling relationships with others, being able to
feel what they feel and not what I want to feel is important.

This is ultimately what makes addiction so caustic to relationships IMO. Your
mood stops moving and flexing with your social environs. It's a feedback loop
that closes you off from those that sustain you and you lean heavier on the
substance.

~~~
proverbialbunny
I too have bumped into this during meditation, but being in my early 20s and
not having a teacher or instructions, I ODed on bliss.

I was living in a state of bliss I could turn up and down for years. I could
turn it up so high I'd pass out from it.

After years of this, something happened and I stopped being able to feel bliss
at all. It was like a part of my neurology had been fried. I assumed it was
something I had done so I turned to suttas to try to figure out what was up,
assuming it was a meditation problem. I learned Buddhism, I solved my
psychological problems, even ended suffering, but at the end of the day the
bliss was gone never to come back.

Doctors call it depression, but I'm optimistic and enjoy life. They may have
never bumped into anyone like me before.

At the end of the day I'm grateful for the experiences I've had, but if you
live high as a kite for years, you can OD on it. I imagine someone who ODs on
a benzo or meth might have a similar experience.

~~~
vinceguidry
Yeah, another reason I eventually gave it up. Emotions are ultimately more fun
when you mix them together like music, not just hit one high note all the
time.

~~~
proverbialbunny
Really it comes down to a middle ground and not overdoing too much of a good
thing.

------
topspin
You can, but most people have a built-in defense mechanism for dealing with
excessive happiness; they indulge invented troubles and make themselves
miserable. Some large fraction of contemporary news headlines are attributable
to this phenomenon; most people aren't actually clever enough to invent their
own troubles so they adopt the invented troubles created by others.

~~~
mottosso
I also have this view. Curious whether you know of any resources to read up on
this some more? It's one of those things that's hard to search for.

------
tombert
There's a quote in Bojack Horseman that has a similar theme:

> I guess I got a happy ending, but every happy ending has the day after the
> happy ending, right? And the day after that. So the wedding was so much fun.
> It was the happiest day of my life. But, you know, what does that say about
> all the days I have left?

I've always liked that quote, because it is something that gets a bit glossed
over in books and movies, but is important; the first derivative of happiness
after something amazing is almost invariably negative.

~~~
DiffEq
This is absolutely not so. Just because one flies high one day does not mean
if you fly low the next day that it is negative at all. Because hey - you are
FLYING! There are different joys in all levels of flight (or to leave the
analogy, of life). Additionally IF one does have an exceptionally negative
day, it can be used to even more appreciate the exceptionally happy days. And
another way to understand this is that the happy times, if truly pure and
happy, never lose the positive buoyancy they shed on the rest of your days; so
in that way those days have raised your overall abundance of life.

~~~
tombert
> Just because one flies high one day does not mean if you fly low the next
> day that it is negative at all. Because hey - you are FLYING!

Sure, and maybe that mentality works for you, but I feel like a lot of people
are more sensitive to differentials than actual quality-of-life.

For example, if I get a big raise at work, then that's great; I will probably
be happy for awhile, and after that, I'll probably equalize to more or less
the level of happiness I was before. Imagine that I then lose that raise,
going back to the same salary that I started with. I would probably be pretty
depressed over that, despite the fact that I wouldn't, in practice, be any
worse than how I started.

I'm not saying it's rational, I'm just saying that's how I (and I think a lot
of people) would react.

~~~
UnFleshedOne
Hedonic adaptation works both ways, you would normally equalize to the same
level after the cut, so it is a good thing.

And if you keep that process in mind and maintain perspective, you can flatten
both bursts of happiness and bouts of depression. Paradoxically, this might
actually raise your settled level of happiness.

~~~
tombert
I don't disagree with that at all; as I've gotten older I've tried to keep
that mentality in mind, especially when I'm sad.

------
salvad0r
I kind of skimmed the article, but it did remind me of another one I read
about babies. Once a baby gets to the point they express emotions, they will
look at their parents and fill with so much joy, their sub-conscious forces
them to look away so they can calm down and don't hurt themselves.

~~~
helpPeople
Wow my kid does this. I attributed this as "bashful". And my wife says I do
this too.

------
ThrowawayR2
Interesting yet disturbing. On the one hand, a possible treatment for severe
treatment resistant depression, which would relieve the misery of many
thousands of suffering individuals. On the other, a possible gateway to the
sci-fi concept of wireheads (
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wirehead_(science_fiction)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wirehead_\(science_fiction\))
) or a mechanism to involuntarily pacify dissidents or other disaffected
members of society.

I'm really not sure what to think.

------
Ascetik
According to St. Thomas Aquinas, no you cannot, because the immortal soul
presupposes a participation in the infinite and eternal. Aristotle made this
clear, which St. Thomas then expounds on:

"Man’s ultimate happiness consists in the contemplation of truth, for this
operation is specific to man and is shared with no other animals. Also it is
not directed to any other end since the contemplation of truth is sought for
its own sake. In addition, in this operation man is united to higher beings
(substances) since this is the only human operation that is carried out both
by God and by the separate substances (angels). (Summa Contra Gentiles, book
3, chapter 37)

and

It is impossible for any created good to constitute man’s happiness. For
happiness is that perfect good which entirely satisfies one’s desire;
otherwise it would not be the ultimate end, if something yet remained to be
desired. Now the object of the will, i.e., of man’s desire, is what is
universally good; just as the object of the intellect is what is universally
true. Hence it is evident that nothing can satisfy man’s will, except what is
universally good. This is to be found, not in any creature, but in God alone,
because every creature has only participated goodness. Therefore, God alone
can satisfy the will of man, according to the words of the Psalms (102:5):
“Who alone satisfies your desire with good things.” Therefore, God alone
constitutes man’s happiness.” (Summa Theologica Part 2. Q.1. Article 8)

------
perseusprime11
Happiness and suffering are tow sides of the same coin. They follow each other
closely. Overdose of happiness will lead to an equal amount of suffering.
Better to be indifferent to either and focus on equanimity, peace and harmonY.

~~~
The_rationalist
Is there scientific evidence that the more we have highly happy moments the
more we have highly suffering moments? I does not match my experience of life.

~~~
cheeko1234
I think it's more of the other way around. To have happy moments you have to
have suffering moments to compare to how bad it could be.

Basically: who gets happier when they get a gift? Someone who doesn't get
gifts a lot, or someone who's always getting gifts?

~~~
perseusprime11
Bingo!

------
tehnub
Interesting comment from the Nautilus comment section from user Zdenek Husak:

> What an incredibly flawed piece; sensational, unscientific and condescending
> to patients suffering from depression. All decorated with opinions of a very
> controversial scientist: [http://alison-bass.blogspot.com/2011/05/helen-
> mayberg-case-s...](http://alison-bass.blogspot.com/2011/05/helen-mayberg-
> case-study-in-why-we-need.html)

~~~
akeck
There is also a rebuttal to that blog post:
[http://daviddobbs.net/smoothpebbles/alison-bass-your-
facts-o...](http://daviddobbs.net/smoothpebbles/alison-bass-your-facts-on-
helen-mayberg-are-wrong-wrong-and-wrong/)

------
cies
An LD50[1] for a happiness level? I don't think so.

OD'ing in sense of "my happy chemicals are depleted so now I need to recover a
bit", suuuure :)

[1]:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Median_lethal_dose](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Median_lethal_dose)

~~~
magashna
Sounds like MDMA abuse.

------
tosser0001
I knew a guy who I always thought was basically the opposite of clinically
depressed - I thought of him as "clinically happy".

In some ways I was a bit jealous of how he never seemed to let things get to
him. But on the other hand, he would let certain aspects of his life fall
apart in ways that seemed to me his perpetual good humor perhaps didn't allow
him to address. If he had felt a bit more discomfort I think he would have
taken a different path from time to time and ultimately wound up in a better
place overall.

~~~
program_whiz
Totally get what you're saying, have known people like that. But then it begs
the question -- end up in a better place for what reason? If being "in a
better place" wasn't going to improve how he felt internally, why bother? I
think its hard for us normies to understand people like that, because its so
obvious how it would be "better" to have more money, stability, etc, but
perhaps the definition of enlightenment is to be truly happy regardless of
circumstance. If that's the case, is there really a reason to do those things
(if it truly won't change your internal state in any way)?

Like if you knew that no job or money you made would ever lead to any
fulfillment of any kind, and you would be equally happy without the job /
money, would you still do it, just because its a "better situation" (how we
define better is again tricky here)...

This is extreme, but there's an old zen koan about a teacher who tells his
servant to leave him alone while he drinks tea, as his house burns down. He
then walks back to see it burned down, and no one can understand why he did
that, and he says something like "I was enjoying my tea". The house was as
meaningless as if someone had said "if you don't come quick a leaf will blow
off your patio" \-- totally meaningless and of no impact to your present mood.

~~~
razorunreal
I think our emotional responses exist to guide us towards good decisions. If
you take a reinforcement learning system and you always give it positive
reinforcement, it will not learn much of anything. I guess I'm saying your
enlightenment is irrelevant if it's not improving your survival.

------
known
Happiness = Money + Children

[http://archive.is/LvxSN](http://archive.is/LvxSN)

~~~
milesvp
yeah, not quite. children actually tend to make you less happy than your
peers. at least until they’re old enough to largely fend for themselves. At
least in western cultures.

I suspect households with more than 2 adults the equation changes
significantly. My experience is every child is a pleasure for 2 hours, no
matter how badly they are misbehaving. So a household with enough adults to
hand off the children may be able to maximize some kind of child additive
happiness, though now you have to deal with added adult drama...

~~~
helpPeople
Ancedotes... My baby has made me incredibly happy.

But also frustrated and tired.

But now that we hit 4 months, it's mostly happy and rarely tired and
frustrated.

~~~
lucb1e
I'm not sure one can make much of a statement about how happy children make
you after you've had one for four months...

------
The_rationalist
RANT: This is rationally the most interesting topic I've ever read. It's not
subjective, this is clearly the currently known most effective way to maximize
hapiness and maximizing happiness is the only rational policy: utilitarism.

But there are so many obvious questions unanswered: I incrementing from one
volt to another had significant mood alteration, why didn't the doctor improve
granulairy,why didn't they tried e.g

If changing from one volt to another has such a big impact on mood alteration,
why couldn't they try floats ? (e.g 3.265 volts) Also the happiness
benchmarcking should be much more rigorous (we're talking about permanently
altering a human mood behavior) e.g how much is increased or decreased the
response to stimulis such as consuming music, arts, orgasms, or laugh ability.
How much does this affect social behavior, ability to focus, working memory,
creativity, etc. Is the alteration only changing baseline well being or does
it affect the propensity of having mood spikes (high low, high up). I'm just a
random guy on the internet,the scientists should have measured all of this.

Other obvious things: The field should be massively be financed by state
research. The voltage should be dynamic in real time and changeable though a
smartphone application. Philosophers and data scientists should make consensus
on optimal strategies (setting a right voltage for a right situation)

Also, the stimulation only affect one brain region, I expect that the
recompense system is far more complex and thus we should have as many
electrodes as there are concerned brain regions. Indeed, each with differing
voltages.

Deep brain stimulation seems to be the successor of a widely used paradigmatic
technology: Psychotrophs. Cannabis mostly have the structure of dopamin and
thus can pass the blood brain barrier and stick to dopamin receptors. Here
hapiness is controlled chemically not electrically. So can the recompense
system be totally controlled electrically or only a subset of moods
states/substates can be controlled electrically?

Also, does the stimulation inherit some downsides of cannabis?

Bonus: Instead of having a dynamically changing voltages in real time but in a
continous manner, would it be useful to make rapid non continous volts
switching having a "rhythm" like a music? Could we create new fine grained
feelings on demand?

~~~
helpPeople
If there is electrical current, can we make hats that measure EMF?

~~~
The_rationalist
I didn't knew what is an Electromotive force and still doesn't really
understand what you meant, can you ELI5?

------
m3kw9
Humans are awesome difference tellers, but once you have too much of the same
thing you will be indifferent to it. As with happiness that could happen,
there is a limit of sustaining higher highs. Unless that person can stop and
notice around them and be grateful of what they have by noticing the suffering
around. Something to that degree

~~~
criddell
So, if by some feat of governmental magic, my city were able to eliminate the
homelessness problem, I might be less happy because I wouldn't see as much
suffering around me?

~~~
corey_moncure
It sounds strange to say it but at some level, isn't it possible?

Sometimes YouTube shows me videos of natural disasters (I have a strong
interest in the extremes of physics, weather, nature, etc. generally) and some
of those videos feature widespread human suffering on display. When I see
these videos, I remember that my life is actually pretty great despite the
minor nuisances that may have me feeling ticked off that day. Couldn't seeing
homelessness around you could remind you how lucky you are that you don't
suffer from the conditions that lead to homelessness?

------
bahrd
Sweet, well here's at least one mental illness I'll never have to worry
about...

------
aaroninsf
"Dissatisfaction will find its level."

------
arandr0x
"Why not allow patients to set their own moods to suit their own circumstances
and desires?"

Can't most people to some extent do that?

~~~
boomlinde
It seems like such therapy is aimed at people whose capacity to affect their
mood positively is diminished somehow.

------
zackmorris
I'm intrigued by the idea that electrical brain stimulation might somehow take
the place of damaged or disconnected parts of the brain. I stumbled onto these
links the other day while researching concussion and depression:

[https://www.myrighttime.com/concussions-
depression](https://www.myrighttime.com/concussions-depression)

[https://msktc.org/tbi/factsheets/depression-after-
traumatic-...](https://msktc.org/tbi/factsheets/depression-after-traumatic-
brain-injury)

[https://www.brainline.org/article/depression-after-brain-
inj...](https://www.brainline.org/article/depression-after-brain-injury)

[http://healthland.time.com/2013/01/17/study-reveals-how-
conc...](http://healthland.time.com/2013/01/17/study-reveals-how-concussions-
can-trigger-depression/)

In my case, I was a rambunctious kid who bumped his noggin dozens of times and
I always wondered if that had an effect on my mood. I've struggled with
depression off and on since my late teens, although I think that most of it
was environmental. It can be difficult sometimes as creative people to find
satisfaction in the workaday world when it's so far removed from the life of
invention and fulfillment that we might imagine for ourselves.

The interesting thing about concussion is that it doesn't always show up on
brain scans because it can be microscopic tears in the white matter connecting
different regions, rather than acute damage to a specific area. So maybe
everything is working, but there is a delay or diminishment in inner monolog
that makes everything feel like a struggle or seem like tasks require
additional motivation that is difficult to maintain.

It could manifest differently for everyone though, and the damage may or may
not be permanent. I think that some of the trouble comes because we might
rewire ourselves to cope with temporary damage, and then find ourselves caught
in dysfunctional habits after the brain repairs itself via neuroplasticity.
Similar things happen in the body with referred pain, where nerves report pain
months or years after a muscle strain heals, for example. I’ve been
experimenting with a TENS machine and after just 3 half-hour sessions, the
pain in one of my shoulder blades is about 1/3 less than before.

I also think there might be a connection with the limbic system, or whichever
centers connect thought with external action. I’ve noticed that I can
brainstorm like no tomorrow, or perform physical tasks like lifting weights,
but combining the two to adapt physically under changing mental requirements
and do things like home improvement projects can be taxing sometimes. The end
result being that I’m not quite the self-motivator I once was, because it’s
easier to procrastinate reading/writing about my interests or take direct
orders from a boss than start my own project.

So I’ve been experimenting with separating my goals and performing them
temporally, using a to-do list. Maybe list what to do in the morning, then
perform the steps in the afternoon or the next day. The idea being that any of
us can write an outline of how to achieve our dreams, hopefully incorporating
mindfulness meditation practices (aka The Secret), then diligently follow
those steps by reporting to ourselves as our own boss and achieve some level
of spiritual independence and satisfaction in our lives.

Some keywords that helped me research this are SSRI, SNRI and adult crawling.
YMMV though as I’m a bit of a mind hacker (certainly not a doctor) and have
never been on antidepressants.

