
Uber, Lyft drivers manipulate fares at DCA causing artificial price surges - edtechstrats
https://wjla.com/news/local/uber-and-lyft-drivers-fares-at-reagan-national
======
gdhbcc
I dont see how Lyft gets off calling this fraudulent. Seems to me it's the
system working as intended, and as it should.

Drivers dont want to drive for under a certain value, so they simply inform
the app who adjusts the value to fulfill demand. Seems like its what you want
to happen.

~~~
i_am_proteus
And it only works as long as all of the drivers in an area agree: one or two
drivers who don't join the scheme, and it doesn't work.

~~~
metalliqaz
Not all. The large majority, but not all. There are very likely one or two
drivers in the area that don't participate, simply because they aren't in the
parking lot at the moment they orchestrate the mass logout. Surge pricing is
about supply and demand, so if expected demand is high (like at an airport)
they need a lot more than one or two drivers.

~~~
mikeash
I don’t think it even necessarily needs to be a large majority. It just needs
to be enough such that the remaining drivers aren’t sufficient to meet demand.
Depending on circumstances, that could require anywhere from one driver to all
of them.

It’s a great illustration of how supply and demand work to determine prices.

~~~
metalliqaz
Yeah, agreed, but these guys are going for maximum rate, so they have to get
as many as possible.

~~~
mikeash
Indeed. And as the rate grows higher, there’s ever more incentive to defect
from the scheme. This should be a case study taught in Economics 101, it’s so
pure and clear!

~~~
kevin_b_er
Well, yes. It will settle at the rate they're actually willing to be paid, not
the one their "employer" is setting for them.

------
radcon
This seems like it could also torpedo their Contractor vs. Employee argument.

Contractors get to set rates, employees don't. So you can't say they're
contractors AND accuse them of committing fraud when they try to set their own
rates.

Now if only someone would develop an app that does this for entire cities. The
app could be their version of a union.

~~~
leereeves
Under the theory that Uber/Lyft employees are contractors and allowed to set
prices, wouldn't coordinating ("conspiring") to do so en masse be considered
price fixing?

Personally I think they should be considered employees, but a pro-management
federal prosecutor could make some trouble for them.

~~~
radcon
On that note, does it make a difference that they're collectively _refusing
work_ rather than collectively _setting prices_? Uber and Lyft are still the
ones actually setting the price.

In the end I don't think it will matter, Uber and Lyft could probably code
around this pretty easily if it started to affect their bottom line. When they
see 100+ drivers in the same place go offline within X seconds of each other,
it's a pretty clear indication that there's coordinated action taking place.
They probably have enough data from drivers' phones to see that they're
sitting still waiting to go back online.

I just hope they don't decide to make an example out of these drivers by
banning them...

~~~
xyzzyz
Refusing to sell a product or a service below a specific price is literally
what setting prices is.

~~~
toomuchtodo
Sounds like forced labor to me.

------
wlesieutre
News flash: if you go out of your way to classify your entire workforce as
contractors, you don't get to decide when they work or not. It turns out this
has consequences on both sides.

If Lyft wants to decide when their drivers are working, there's a process for
this:

1) Hire employees

2) Give them a schedule

3) Pay them hourly plus mileage

~~~
lexs
And suddenly Uber/Lyft are like any other Taxi company just with a massive
valuation.

~~~
wlesieutre
There's probably a balance to be struck, because part of the ridesharing
design's efficiency is that if demand drops they can drop their rates paid to
drivers, and the drivers who don't want to drive at those prices will stop.

So if Lyft starts to say "we always want X drivers available as a base load,
and we'll open up to contractors to fill in the demand spikes" it might make
the contractor role too unreliable for anyone to bother doing it. At the very
least, their costs would go up for both the employed drivers and the extra
contractor drivers. Since their valuations comes mainly from a cheap labor
pool, that presumably kills it.

But in the current situation, if all their drivers at the airport sign off and
say "I'm not driving at these prices," you get surge pricing to make it worth
driving, that increases costs too. That's what happens when you're buying
labor from independent contractors - if they don't want to sell it to you at a
particular time for any reason, they don't have to.

The real question here is "If Lyft recognizes when these organized sign-offs
are happening, calls their bluff, and refuses to activate surge pricing, what
happens?"

Do the drivers really refuse to drive at the regular pricing and go home? Or
do they all give in to a more tamper-resistant algorithm and keep driving at
regular rates?

~~~
lr
Can we please stop referring to these services as "sharing"? Lyft actually
started as a company that coordinated the sharing of rides, i.e., no money was
involved. But the "sharing" pretense has long since past for all of these
companies.

~~~
egypturnash
We need a new word for "taxi companies with cute apps, unsustainable
pricing/wages and lots of Silicon Valley venture capital propping them up" to
distinguish them from old-school taxi companies if we're gonna quit saying
"rideshare".

Any suggestions?

~~~
toast0
I prefer unlicensed taxis.

~~~
crooked-v
While this is accurate, I think the subtext of it conflicts with the common
anecdotal claims (including mine) far preferring Uber over actual licensed
taxis.

------
cypherpunks01
This is really curious, in that it appears to be a normal strike for higher
wages, except it's being coordinated on an hourly basis for just a few minutes
until the company agrees to pay more!

Contractors can decide when and how they want to work, and therefore determine
the price at which to sell their labor at, so to me it seems they are simply
exercising their rights here. Like others have mentioned, if most drivers
don't choose to participate, then this "scheme" wouldn't function.

~~~
rosege
Not 100% sure I'd call it a strike but its just the free market working
quickly. I have a feeling though this will spread around the world and be
adapted by drivers in many other countries. I've traveled a bit in South
America and Uber drivers there really do earn barely anything - I dont know
how they afford the gas - e.g. 1/2 hour trip for $3-$4.

~~~
laken
I've also traveled in South America and relied on Uber heavily. I talked with
a few drivers, and they all found Uber to actually be worth it. For example,
Colombia's minimum wage when converted to 40hrs/wk/month comes out to
~$1.50/hr. It's not a bad gig there, and the cost of living is relatively low.
The bigger problem is the danger of driving for Uber, as taxistas are not a
fan of Uber drivers.

------
llamataboot
Few things interesting here -

One is that the workers are getting paid more per the algorithm that these
companies designed to charge customers - that is, they are getting the company
to facilitate higher payments but the company itself isn't being charged more!
So in that case, the drivers are simply arguing that uber/lyft are
artificially undervaluing their time because clearly these passengers are
willing to pay 15% more to them to get home...

\--

It is telling to me how often Lyft/Uber/et all emphasize that their philosophy
is that these gig economy jobs are just something you do a tiny bit extra to
get some extra cash in your pocket. That is they are designed to be a small
supplement to the job that provides you with most of your income, so hey, we
don't really have to worry about working conditions, etc.

But I'm not sure I believe their stats. Over the past few years it is nearly
100% of the drivers I get that are doing it full-time, and many/most of the
"teacher moonlighting for extra vacation money" type drivers have given way to
lots of former actual taxi drivers who quit their taxi company and now work
both uber/lyft.

~~~
nabergh
I wouldn't be so convinced that passengers are willing to pay these surge
prices to go home. Sure, the first time a passenger encounters this artificial
surge, they're already planning on taking uber/lyft home so they'll pay it
because they probably don't have another option immediately available. But the
next time a passenger arrives at DCA (could be a month or two), they might
remember uber/lyft is expensive when they land so they would have arranged a
different option to leave the airport. Consumer reaction to prices changes may
not always be immediate. These drivers are operating in their own interest in
the short term but who knows if they are in the long term.

~~~
cpitman
100%. I fly out of DCA/IAD, and each time weigh the options of parking at the
airport and taking a rideshare service. Last time I used Uber from DCA it was
much more expensive than I expected, and have been parking there since.

------
Konnstann
"On average, Lyft drivers earn over $20 per hour."

I wonder if this figure takes into account all the waiting time, or just
driving time on the app. If it is the latter, then that's a pretty scummy
thing to say, considering that most drivers spend less than a third of the
time actually driving people to their destination, putting the actual number
closer to 7.00 an hour.

~~~
lexs
Also does that include repairs, depreciation, insurance etc. of the car? What
about fuel?

~~~
Dirlewanger
It doesn't. After expenses/taxes deducted, they're making less than minimum
wage. To me this just shows how much financially illiterate many Americans
are; zero foresight beyond the amount in their bank account at any given
moment.

~~~
asdff
One of my lyft drivers had their car in the shop for 6 months (some dispute
with the kia dealership, they assured me that their lemon lawyer would recover
the car soon) and the car they were driving for lyft was a rental from
enterprise. Desperate people are taking these gig jobs and it's scary how far
in over their head some of them are.

------
CPLX
When low paid workers coordinate their efforts to increase their pay it's
called an "artificial price surge" and allegations of fraud are thrown around.

When highly paid executives, investors, and board members coordinate their
efforts to increase their pay what does the media call it?

~~~
6gvONxR4sf7o
Price fixing, predatory pricing, bid rigging, collusion.

------
_Microft
As Charles Munger said "Show me the incentive and I will show you the
outcome".

------
giaour
As much as I would be displeased if my fare were manipulated, I can only blame
Uber and Lyft for this. They created an incentive for drivers to act as a
unit, and groups of drivers are figuring it out. Really makes you long for the
transparent, posted pricing of municipal taxis

~~~
klausjensen
>> Really makes you long for the transparent, posted pricing of municipal
taxis

...Absolutely not.

I live in Malta, where Uber does not exist, but similar services do + local
regulated taxis.

It is extremely clear who gets a rating and who does not give a f### about
reputation and repeat business.

The only ones who use the real taxis here are tourists. I don't know anybody
local (expat or native), who would use the "real" taxi company.

~~~
la_barba
Taxi's are not allowed to price gouge, they also cannot refuse you service,
etc, etc. I don't see that as a bad thing.

~~~
colejohnson66
Depends on the state. Also, the GP mentioned Malta, which isn’t the US.

~~~
la_barba
They mentioned Malta but they were responding to a comment that was made in a
general context. There are benefits to having a regulated taxi system. Saying
that unless those benefits are realized at every single place on earth, they
don't mean much.

------
Waterluvian
I can think of a ton of technical ways Uber and Lyft can combat this. And they
probably will. And they'll be short term happy and long term foolish. Because
they're treating the symptoms, not the cause.

~~~
rjf72
I assume you're proposing that the cause is 'low' wages. So let's say drivers
earned an average of $50/hour. This would put them in an income bracket such
that they earn more than 95% of Americans. Do you think that people would not
then exploit a legal angle to bump their earn up to let's say $70/hour, if
they found out a way to do so?

~~~
rurp
Once you account for self employment tax, gas, wear and tear on the car, and a
total lack of job benefits, an Uber driving being paid $50/hour probably makes
less than someone getting paid $25/hour in a steady job. For sure they would
be making wayyy less than the top %5 of Americans.

------
jermaustin1
I'm not a lawyer, nor do I agree with what I'm about to say, but the drivers
need to be careful, because they might run afoul of collusion.

Since they are all independent contractors, they are "rivals" in the same
industry, so with all of them cooperating to increase fares for their benefit
(and based on my understanding of the law), they are technically colluding.

~~~
ceejayoz
They should just form a union. Contractors can form one - they don't get _all_
the privileges (for example, the employer isn't legally required to bargain
with them, and can retaliate against strikes) but it'd probably permit this
sort of short-term work stoppage.

~~~
jermaustin1
Depends on the state, but federally, independent contractors are excluded from
the right to form or participate in unions as defined by the National Labor
Relations Act.

EDIT: independent contractors are excluded from the protections of their union
actions.

~~~
ceejayoz
[https://cwa-union.org/about/rights-on-job/legal-toolkit/my-e...](https://cwa-
union.org/about/rights-on-job/legal-toolkit/my-employer-says-i-am-independent-
contractor-what-does-mean)

> As an independent contractor, the terms and conditions of the work you
> perform are set out in a contract between you and the employer. Even though
> you are not considered an “employee” under federal labor law, you may still
> join a union. However, you should keep in mind that a unit of independent
> contractors is not subject to the same privileges and protections as a
> regular union bargaining unit. For example, an employer is not under the
> same obligation to bargain with a union regarding contract terms for an
> independent contractor that it is to bargain over issues affecting its
> regular employees. Also, an independent contractor who went on strike would
> not be protected from employer reprisals under the National Labor Relations
> Act.

Plenty of contract plumbers, electricians, etc. are members of unions.

------
Shivetya
I have no issue with them not being available and having rates go up. that is
what they system should do. I know uber/lyft drivers that turn off the app
after drops off in areas they like being so that they don't get prompted to
take a nearby fare.

I do find it annoying that these drivers are upset at the fees. Look, before
then all you could do is work for a taxi service and they make uber and lyft
look like saints for the most part. you are free to work for whomever you want
and you got into the deal knowing what it was.

~~~
jakelazaroff
_> You are free to ride with whomever you want, and you got into the deal
knowing what it was._

This cuts both ways, though. Taxis still exist! If you don't want to take Uber
or Lyft, you are free to take a normal taxi, use public transportation,
arrange your own ride, etc.

~~~
diminoten
Or use one of the dozens of local competitors that are popping up.

------
smadge
“Over 75% drive less than 10 hours a week to supplement existing jobs. On
average, Lyft drivers earn over $20 per hour.”

These statistics could be very misleading. For example let’s say one driver
works 4 hours, another 6 hours, another 10 hours with all three making making
$25/hr and the final one works 80 hours making $10/hour. In this scenario 75%
of drivers are driving 10 or less hours a week and the mean driver hourly rate
is over $20. However 80% of the hours driven are by one driver making
$10/hour. This one driver is clearly the workhorse of the ride-sharing company
making the bulk of the profit.

------
ackbar03
Oh man these guys think this is fraudulent? They should come to China. When
rebates were all the rage, where the ride hailing companies would pay drivers
subsidies, they developed software that could fake the GPS address on the
phone and pick up fake rides without actually driving and get massive rebates

------
codedokode
I don't like the word "manipulating". It is like a trade union negotiating
better terms. If they do it voluntarily without intimidating the drivers then
I don't see any problem. They should not feel guilty.

Also, in a Lyft's statement:

> Over 75% drive less than 10 hours a week to supplement existing jobs.

I wonder, are those 75% working part-time or full-time? It must be tiring
driving 2 more hours after 9-hour working day.

------
bradleybuda
I’ve always been fascinated by the way Uber has implemented their market
dynamics using surge pricing. Uber isn’t a market for rides in the way that,
say, a stock exchange is a market for stocks. There aren’t drivers setting
their asking price and riders making bids, nor is there an order book where
matches are made at a clearing price, and understandably so - I can’t imagine
how to build a comprehensible UX around a “true” bid-ask marketplace.

Instead, Uber presumably has historic estimates of the supply and demand
curves at different locations, different times of the week, different
passenger / rider populations (business travelers or tourists?) and then uses
the measured “true” supply and demand to find a clearing price, and therefore
decide whether or not a market is going to surge.

The UX of surge is important too - the raison d’être of surge pricing is to
bring more drivers to an undersupplied market. That means that when you detect
a supply or demand shock that would lead to surge pricing, you want to
increase the surge as quickly as possible to send out the “we need more
drivers” signal, because there’s a latency in getting more supply (drivers
have to relocate). Conversely, Uber doesn’t want to drop the surge price too
quickly - they want downward movement to be sticky - because you don’t want to
tell drivers “there’s more money to be made over here” just to renege on that
promise before the supply can even get there.

So if surge is sticky on the way down, these drivers may have found a way to
exploit the pricing algorithm - simulate a price shock then reap the rewards.
If surge were not sticky on the way down, this strategy might be much less
effective - a few drivers would get better fares, but the market would return
to equilibrium faster.

None of this is to say that you can’t have cartel behavior in a “bid-
ask”-style market too, but I suspect this is a “hack” of Uber’s pricing UX as
much as anything else.

------
hn_throwaway_99
That's one clever way to unionize...

------
duxup
This seems like a logical outcome considering the company and contractors have
an increasingly disconnected and at times adversarial relationship.

The entire gig economy is based on shifting risk onto the contractor (demand
changes, benefits, protections regarding injury / illness)... and to some
extent onto the consumer too.

------
mimixco
Both companies claim that drivers are independent contractors who can drive
when and where they want, so how can they say that these drivers are in
violation of anything?

------
sixQuarks
Uber/Lyft probably knew this was going on already, but since it increases
revenue, probably was looking the other way. It’s going to be hard to ignore
this now that it’s getting media attention.

------
peterwwillis
The only economic model that make Uber and Lyft make sense is if drivers are
willing to take low pay (considering all their other costs). If they make more
money than cab drivers, the whole model falls apart, because then cabs will be
cheaper and the service won't be competitive. (Granted, the lack of having to
pay for medallions saves them a bunch of money)

I think the only long-term business plan that makes sense for them is black
cars, or people who don't want the hassle of Taxis.

~~~
sundaeofshock
Keep in mind that uber was successful early on not because of price, but
because it was significantly more reliable then a cab. I was willing to pay a
bit more then a cab to get to the airport because I knew I could count on that
uber to arrive at my house on time.

Uber and Lyft are not trying to be cost competitive with cabs; they are trying
to be cost competitive with public transit.

~~~
taormina
I'm still convinced that the only innovation that ever happened in this space
by Uber was the guaranteed ride. They chose to fight (ok, ignore) the taxi
regulations, but from a features perspective the taxi apps already did all
this. The difference was that any random person off the street could still
flag your cab so in practice you rarely got a taxi if you weren't in a "hot
spot". Reliability matters.

------
dmbaggett
I've definitely experienced this at DCA, and it's worth nothing as well that
it sometimes take _hours_ to get out of the airport due to the insane traffic
jams right around the terminals and in the parking garages. DCA has gone from
my favorite airport to literally my least favorite over the last year or so.
I've been using Dulles instead even though it's way less convenient.

~~~
momokoko
DCA is also one of the easiest airports in the US to access the metro(public
transit) out of the terminal. Is there a reason you just don't hop on the
yellow line and get off at a less congested stop closer to your final
destination?

~~~
cpitman
Metro's hours are usually the problem for me, usually getting to the airport
after the last train has left.

~~~
momokoko
Absolutely, but in that case, the issue about extreme traffic congestion is
much less likely. Even though traffic in the area can be difficult at times,
1AM seems like an unlikely time to run into that.

------
francisofascii
Sounds like a cartel. Where parties mutually agree to cut supply to keep
prices at a certain level.

~~~
ianhawes
You forgot the kicker to the definition of a cartel: "restricting
competition".

The events in the article do not indicate that they are somehow prohibiting
other drivers from accessing the platform. While it's certainly possible
they're strong arming the drivers at the airport, overall they're not
restricting someone from signing up to become a Lyft or Uber driver.

------
deweller
> They can’t afford to pickup people at Reagan for $4 in rush hour traffic.

Are they really getting paid $4 to give someone a ride? That seems so low that
drivers would be incentivized to find another job.

~~~
Waterluvian
I'm not sure if the number is accurate but I do know how amazingly stubborn
humans can be in finding a new job. I've had people refuse to quit a job that
they groan about every day when I've offered them almost double the salary to
work elsewhere with far better terms.

Humans are risk averse and those who live paycheck to paycheck are especially
so. It defies logic until you consider that their fear of the unknown + small
chance they end up with no job has a massive adjustment weight applied to it
in their minds.

~~~
mruts
Maybe that’s all true, but it doesn’t really make sense for Uber/Lyft. They
could go back to their job driving whenever they wanted.

~~~
Waterluvian
You're applying a healthy dose of rationalism to this. I don't have the answer
but I think there's a possibility that you can't expect rationalism when
you're asking people to walk away from the major pattern in their life which
puts food in their kids mouths.

------
blakesterz
I don't quite understand this:

"The lot fills with 120 to 150 drivers sometimes for hours, waiting for the
busy evening rush. "

Are they saying drivers site and wait for hours to do this?

~~~
lr
Some people actually do not want to be at home (I once had a taxi driver who
drove us from Manhattan to Brooklyn, then waited for us to go home, hours
later, all the while texting his family that he had to keep working).

Also, leaving the car turned off and waiting in a lucrative parking lot saves
gas, wear and tear on the car, and drastically decreases the opportunities to
get into an accident. All in all, it is not a bad plan. Taxi drivers have done
this for years (which is, ironically, probably one of reasons Uber got started
in the first place -- in SF it was almost impossible to get a cab, because so
many cabbies just wanted to get airport fares).

~~~
papln
The driver could be doing elance and mechanical turk work while waiting for
your ride home!

------
rrival
Experienced this at LAX - another driver called my driver, commenting "It's at
3.5!!" \- well played, I don't fault them for this at all.

------
traeregan
[https://callaride.com](https://callaride.com) is launching next month (local
to the Tampa Bay, FL area only for now), and one of their key differentiators
is giving drivers the ability to set their rate. There will be minimums and
maximums in-place, but they will have more control than with Uber or Lyft.

Note: I am a third-party PM working with the web and mobile application teams.

------
chrischen
I think many people are missing some facts from the article. They aren’t so
much going on “strike” as they are just turning off their apps on masse 5
minutes before plane lands to trigger surge pricing, and then turning back on
to catch the passengers at surge pricing. Obviously customers are still
choosing to accept such fares, but may not know that the real price (if they
wait a bit) would be much lower.

------
Causality1
Seems like a small software tweak is all it would take to obliterate this
tactic, like updating surge pricing every time a driver logged in.

~~~
lr
The whole point of surge pricing is to get more drivers on the street. If they
decrease it that quickly, then there is zero incentive for a driver to leave
their house and get in their car and get out on the street, because by the
time they do that, the prices are back down.

~~~
sly010
In fact I am surprised it reacts as fast as the article describes.

~~~
jakelazaroff
I assume it's a combination of that and the sudden demand of a plane full of
people all opening up their apps to look for a ride simultaneously.

------
diydsp
Why does everyone assume the workers are screwing Uber/Lyft?

Uber/Lyft make more money this way. The passengers are getting screwed.

------
kdot
What's the rational for percentage based fees? The technology cost for a 4
mile ride is the same for a 50 mile ride.

~~~
Jommi
It's not just percentage based. There is a fixed booking fee sometimes as
well.

~~~
asdff
Some cities seem to get far better rates too. In Boston most of my trips were
around $4-5, maybe closer to $15 to get to logan. When I was in Columbus it
was like the trips were arbitrarily twice as much, hovering $7-10 for similar
distances. Miami probably had the highest rates I've experienced (Like $25+ to
get to the other side of the biscayne bay), traffic was terrible as well so I
wasn't as shocked, but it seemed much higher than going a similar distance in
LA. I was still able to get rides in 10 minutes in most cases everywhere, so
it wasn't for lack of free drivers, it seemed.

------
ikeboy
They can just counteract this by refusing to turn on surge pricing if they
detect a large number of drivers disappearing if they predict that they'll
come back shortly. Should be easy to predict that pattern and counteract it,
unless the drivers are willing to skip work for an extended period of time.

~~~
freeflight
But why should they?

Both Uber and Lyft also profit from this because in the end it's the customers
who pay the difference.

So I don't really see either of these companies wasting time and effort on
fixing this "problem".

------
awake
I’ve heard about this tactic from people working at Uber years ago. I think
they’re aware that it happens. The way it was described to me is the Ubers are
in a line at the airport and each car signs off except the very first. That
way rides keep coming and the first person in line gets surge pricing

~~~
papln
This seems easy to fix on Uber/Lyft's side --- to recognize that they don't
need to maintain book depth. At the airport, since passengers are effectively
queued up.

------
calvinbhai
This is an age old hack. I'm not sure why this is being reported as new.

They did this since the early days of Surge Pricing.

------
40acres
Don't Uber and Lyft lose on every ride? I wonder if the increased fair caused
by this cooperation makes the average ride profitable. Perhaps the price of a
ride is more elastic than Uber and Lyft think? Especially at airports.

------
rmrfrmrf
Unionization and striking for the gig economy. You love to see it!

------
exabrial
This is hilarious. Props to the drivers. Capitalism at it's finest: assumption
of information imbalance.

If uber and lyft do nothing, this behavior will autocorrect itself: expect a
few drivers to rebel/revolt after the news of the behavior spreads. Keeping
the secret will get harder and harder.

~~~
zentiggr
But it doesn't have to be secret, ad defectors only hurt themselves by
accepting lower pay for the same fare. That seems like a strong incentive to
play along.

~~~
exabrial
Exactly, but at some price point, for a certain individual, the acceptance of
the lower fair is a better deal to bc of a guaranteed outcome.

------
sfifs
I've seen something like this predictably happen with Grab in my office area
in Singapore. At 5 you suddenly can't get cabs. You can at 4:55.

------
zone411
All this discussion about employee/contractor situation or possible collusion
won't matter after Uber/Lyft close this loophole and this can be done easily.
It makes no sense that the drivers would allow the reporter to publicize this
trick.

------
sharadov
Human dis-ingenuity has to be admired, beautiful!

------
asdffdsa
Ahh, the qualities of competitive markets. If theres antitrust laws, there
should be similar policies from the workers' side as well.

~~~
colejohnson66
So we should go after strikers because they’re depriving their employer of
money?

------
frgtpsswrdlame
Seems to me that if they're contractors they should have the ability to set
their own rates. What's unfortunate is that they have to trick the app.

~~~
shereadsthenews
If Uber was a true platform with sellers able to ask for a price the wouldn't
need this indirect means of influencing it.

~~~
papln
That's not true. The cabbies would still need a way to pressure each other to
not accept lower fares.

------
tzs
I wonder if this is legal?

With the drivers classified as independent contractors rather than employees
would cooperation between drivers to manipulate prices run afoul of antitrust
law?

~~~
codedokode
Is not a ridesharing company the one who sets and manipulates the prices?

------
htk
I personally believe that driver's compensation is a valid discussion, but
defrauding the system is not the way to do it. Uber/Lyft should just carefully
identify and ban the cheaters and the lesson should spread as efficiently as
the planning to cheat.

~~~
mikeash
How is it fraud?

~~~
bena
I would imagine he sees it as fraud because these are drivers who are ready
and willing to drive and are waiting on fares but are not indicated on the app
as so.

So when someone uses the app to find out about nearby rides, it shows no one,
then it ups the rate to try and lure further drivers. Or the few drivers that
are on the app currently. Then when the price is "right", all the waiting cars
turn on the app at once to get the "surge" price.

These people are exploiting the rules of the system to violate the spirit of
the system. The more available cars, the lower the price.

The more people find out that drivers are doing this, the more likely some
form of retaliation will follow.

Either users will just start using cabs again because the price is no
different or they'll do something else. Like give default bad reviews to any
airport trip that they suspect of manipulating surge pricing.

~~~
eropple
Drivers are _not_ ready and willing to drive. They are ready and willing to
drive _for a higher rate_. Lyft and Uber provide that higher rate when there
is sufficient demand and insufficient supply. Working as designed, yo.

Multi-billion-dollar companies do not need you to cape up for them. Somehow,
_somehow_ , they will survive against those mendacious poor people who have
found a way to represent their requirements to the company.

~~~
bena
Where did I say this was a good or bad thing? Nowhere.

I described things that could happen if the practice becomes too exploitative.

Also, I can see the argument that it violates the TOS for the drivers. The
drivers agree to drive for the price determined by the service. They are then
using exploits to manipulate that price.

If they don't want to drive for X fare, then they shouldn't be in their car.

And this is an incredibly complicated situation because there are at least
three different principles involved. The driver, the company, and the
passenger.

In some way, the passenger is being taken advantage of. The passenger _also_
has a contract with the company. And that part assumes that the price is
determined fairly and not being manipulated by outside forces.

~~~
eropple
_> Where did I say this was a good or bad thing? Nowhere._

You didn't. But nobody perturbs that many electrons if they don't have an
opinion on the topic (and I'll be real, I've got one too but I'm not trying to
cloak it in neutrality). And then we get this:

 _> In some way, the passenger is being taken advantage of. _

This is nonsensical. It also proves out the hunch I expressed from my last
post, so thank you for doing the legwork for me.

As to why it is nonsensical: the passenger is in no way being "taken advantage
of", except insofar as Lyft and Uber already commit obvious fuckery on the
regular. The prices are "being manipulated" all over the place--I get
different prices on Uber than my girlfriend does when we're standing next to
one another!--and there is no expectation that "outside forces" (oooooh) are
somehow kept out of it.

The passenger is being given a price at which they will be transported. _That
's it._ The driver is being given a rate at which they will do the
transporting. _That 's it._ If they both agree, the ride happens and Lyft/Uber
take their cut. This is how a two-sided market maker is supposed to work.

I don't know why it would be okay for Uber and Lyft to fiddle-fart with prices
but it's not okay for drivers to say "I won't drive for less than $X". Why are
you choosing to shade, to preferentially "see the argument" against poor
people when it means that they might make a little money using a market the
way a market is supposed to work?

~~~
bena
> This is nonsensical. It also proves out the hunch I expressed from my last
> post, so thank you for doing the legwork for me.

How is it nonsensical? Is the end-consumer just supposed to sit and watch
drivers and the company fight to see how much money they can extract from
their wallet?

Stop trying to make outside forces seem like some sort of sinister scare
tactic. It betrays _your_ bias.

The agreement is that Uber/Lyft set the prices based on the number of drivers
in the area. It's ok by the very nature of the agreement both the drivers and
the passengers agree to for using the app.

It's ok for the drivers to say "I won't drive for less than $X". What's not ok
is saying "I'll sit here and not drive and force a surge so I can then take
advantage of a situation I caused." If they weren't at the airport, that's one
thing. But they sit at the airport and pretend to not be waiting for fares so
they can force a surge. Then they turn on the app so they can both be readily
available and get the surge.

Uber/Lyft get their cut either way. The people getting the brunt of the higher
fares are the passengers. So dismissing them as a concerned party is only a
tactic to defend the drivers.

Are the passengers also not part of the "poor people"?

~~~
eropple
_> How is it nonsensical? Is the end-consumer just supposed to sit and watch
drivers and the company fight to see how much money they can extract from
their wallet?_

Who says the consumer has to take an Uber or a Lyft at all? They have
_exactly_ the same right as the driver to not take a ride. The demand curve is
elastic; demand goes down as price goes up. Consumers are not locked into Uber
or Lyft. Taxis exist. DCA is connected to two train lines.

 _> Stop trying to make outside forces seem like some sort of sinister scare
tactic. It betrays _your_ bias._

Betrays? You get that I'm totally owning my bias, yes? And that I am not the
one who is coloring driver action while ignoring Uber and Lyft's internal
price fuckery?

Price fluctuations because Uber's internal model knows that I'll pay more for
a ride than my girlfriend will are no more legitimate than this, and yet you
just let those slide and focus, for some reason, on those "outside forces".

 _> But they sit at the airport and pretend to not be waiting for fares so
they can force a surge. Then they turn on the app so they can both be readily
available and get the surge._

So?

That is their only lever for expressing their willingness to work at a given
price. If Uber and Lyft provided mechanisms for declaring price levels--"I am
only willing to take rides at $X or more"\--then this wouldn't happen. But
that would reduce the cheap, high-volume rides that make Uber and Lyft their
money, so of course they are uninterested in doing it. So drivers have their
lever, and they are using it.

I'm gonna be real for a sec: what you're saying amounts to "they need to work
for the rich people at the rich people's price because only rich people get to
make decisions."

 _> Are the passengers also not part of the "poor people"? _

Compared to Uber and Lyft: sure! Compared to drivers: _generally not_ ; of
course, there are exceptions...but probably relatively few exceptions leaving
DCA via Uber or Lyft).

But they don't have to use Uber and Lyft to leave DCA. Consumers have other
options that they can leverage. If nothing else, taxis are a nearly hard upper
bound on pricing.

