
On Amish Time - cgtyoder
http://avidly.lareviewofbooks.org/2015/03/27/on-amish-time/
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chroma
As enjoyable as it might be to romanticize the Amish, the author carefully
avoided mentioning the many ethical problems with Amish culture. As devout
readers of the Bible, the Amish follow Proverbs 13:24, which is commonly
misquoted as, "Spare the rod, spoil the child." Corporal punishment of
children is common in both Amish households and schools. Likewise, the Amish
positions on divorce, abortion, and homosexuality shouldn't surprise you.
Their position on genetic testing is particularly egregious[1]:

> Since almost all Amish descend from about 200 18th-century founders, genetic
> disorders that come out due to inbreeding exist in more isolated districts
> (an example of the founder effect). Some of these disorders are quite rare,
> or unique, and are serious enough to increase the mortality rate among Amish
> children. The majority of Amish accept these as "Gottes Wille" (God's will);
> they reject use of preventive genetic tests prior to marriage and genetic
> testing of unborn children to discover genetic disorders.

We might be happier living more simply in small communities, but the Amish are
a terrible example to follow. They reliably inflict needless suffering upon
themselves and their children. And even if such a lifestyle was more
enjoyable, it would only be available to a select minority. To feed over 7
billion human beings, we need mechanized agriculture and chemical fertilizers.

1\.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amish#Health](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amish#Health)

~~~
douche
Corporal punishment is really not that bad, pursued at a reasonable level. I
don't really understand the zero-tolerance attitude that seems to prevail
towards even paddling a misbehaving toddler's ass. Employed correctly, its
something that doesn't need to be employed very often, and its a helluva lot
better deterrent than making them stand in the corner or whatever liberal
shaming-based method of discipline.

~~~
chroma
If you hit an adult, it's assault.

If you hit your dog, it's animal abuse.

If you hit your spouse, it's domestic violence.

Even drill sergeants aren't allowed to hit recruits.

But if you hit your children– people who can't possibly defend themselves,
people who depend on you to survive... it's allowed. It's even encouraged by a
significant fraction of parents today. To me, this seems like a glaringly
immoral exception to a general rule: only use violence in defense of self or
others. After all, pets can be controlled without hitting. Why can't kids?

~~~
falcolas
> Even drill sergeants aren't allowed to hit recruits.

Nope, they sure don't. Don't need to - the institutionalized psychological
attacks and tearing down their worldview to replace it with the army's is much
more effective than any physical reprimand could be.

> After all, pets can be controlled without hitting.

And how is this done? With pinch collars, crates, kennels, leashes, shock
collars, staking them out, fences, rubbing their noses in their feces...

I'd rather the odd corporal punishment to being treated like a "pet".

~~~
sokoloff
Many people who don't know dogs think of crates as doggy jails-far from it.
Our dog loved her crate; it was a nice, secure area where she could retreat
when she was scared or overwhelmed, or when she just wanted a peaceful nap. We
taught our kids that when she was in the crate, they had to absolutely ignore
her and leave her totally alone.

Yes, we used the crate in order to speed up her housebreaking (working with
her natural instincts), but she would also regularly use her crate (with the
door open) on her own. Now, we've built her a little pseudo crate with a dog
bed under a high-legged dresser. She goes there in any big thunderstorm still
and will sometimes sleep there when the house is full of visitors.

I'm in favor of controlling dogs with _appropriate_ use of crates/kennels,
leashes, and fences. OTOH, I've never hit my kids, not because I think it's
inherently wrong, but because I think it's a terribly slippery slope,
especially given the inherent stresses in raising an infant through toddler.

My parents and my (private Christian K-5) school both used corporal punishment
on me, and I have to say that I don't feel harmed nor scarred/scared by it.
Looking back on the few instances that I specifically recall, it was done with
positive intent and was basically effective.

I'm uncertain as to whether it's inherently wrong categorically, or whether
it's just wrongly used by lazy parents in >99% of the instances. (There's no
doubt that it has an immediate effect. A parent could be quite easily tempted
to use that shortcut in an almost addictive fashion.)

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hrktb
One of the most shocking difference I found between USA/europe culture and
Japan is the approach to technology.

on the western side there is inherent disbilief in technology and what it will
do for the society. In popular litterature evil will often come from human
hubris who defies god.Technology will go berserk, the robots will kill us all.
And so much romantizing of the good old days, the eden, the tropical beach
where we all play naked and innocent.

I can't believe the USA have earthquakes on the west side, drought, -40C
winters, hurricanes and floodings on the other parts, and still have this
idealized idea of a low tech heaven on earth. Or does this view only hold off
on mildly nice temperatured places ?

I contrast this to Japan because without cleverly engineered houses and
buildings you're probably dead within 10 years. One can still build a house
structure solely from wood, heavily relying on traditional arts, but
interestingly enough these builders are super knowledgable, have a very broad
knowledge of architecture and materials, just as much as any architect has,
and improve on the traditional formulas wherever it makes sense. Quite the
opposite of "let's gather the neoghboors and build some stuff"

I think both approaches need to exist for diversity, but my heart goes to the
ones trying to make the world better one bit of knowledge at the time, more
than the one closing in their time shells.

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guard-of-terra
"Wendell Berry wrote that American society’s inability to see the Amish for
what they are is indicative of the most basic flaws of the American progress
narrative"

On the other hand, America is a rare society where Amish phenomenon is
possible. Because in most of the world it won't. Such a way of life will be
either ruined by economics or by regulations.

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datashovel
This conversation seems (in general) to be taking polar opposite approaches to
this "lifestyle choice".

If I draw a parallel between this conversation and managing an IT project, it
appears most of you would be in favor of a "complete rewrite" as opposed to
spotting the problem areas and focusing attention on those and fixing the
existing code base.

There's nothing inherently wrong with the way Amish people decide to live.
Many on this thread seem to think that's not the case.

Are there edge cases? Sure. But in general I think the basic premise that they
wish to avoid too much technology in their lives is not necessarily flawed.
It's simply a more extreme version of "don't bring your cell phone to the
dinner table".

Also I should mention that even though they represent a tiny fraction of the
overall world population, there is a huge amount of diversity even among Amish
communities. So the idea that someone can generalize about how "all amish"
live their lives is patently false.

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tomcam
So nicely written. Rumspringa is a practice observed by very few Amish sects,
and has not been shown to increase happiness in its participants.

~~~
MichaelGG
Right - take sheltered kids, let them "go wild" irresponsibly, then tell them
it's either that or being shunned by everyone you know. Some choice.

The Amish system seems rather vile, but unless you totally take away people's
right to associate and indoctrinate children I don't see how we can ethically
eliminate it. I suppose mandatory education that includes proper science and
so on might be a good first start.

~~~
adrianN
The choice got harsher as time passed. When the Amish were founded, the
outside society was very similar. People were very pious, most were farmers
etc. But since the Amish form a time capsule of the 17th century, Rumspringa
became more and more of a culture shock.

~~~
jacquesm
The Amish are definitely not a time-capsule of the 17th century.

They use technology but are quite selective about what will benefit them and
what will interfere with their way of life too much to become a part of it.

It's true that the gap between the Amish and the communities surrounding them
is ever expanding but they're definitely not standing still in time, just
moving at a much slower pace.

~~~
falcolas
The net effect is the same, however. And it's not just technology which
separates them from the rest of America, it's the totality of our values,
which have changed rapidly throughout the years.

