
Liberal, Harsh Denmark - NN88
http://www.nybooks.com/articles/2016/03/10/liberal-harsh-denmark/
======
surfmike
Definitely Denmark stands out compared to their Scandinavian measures.

But looking here
([https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_refugee...](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_refugee_population))
they still have 4x refugees per capita compared to the US, 2x more than
Australia, and still have more refugees per capita than Germany. And they're
well above most EU countries. And I can almost guarantee they're more generous
to refugees than the US.

Seems funny for a US paper to be calling Denmark "harsh".

~~~
stenl
In terms of attitudes, Denmark is the least welcoming to foreigners, of all
Western countries:
[https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2013/03/21...](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2013/03/21/a-fascinating-
map-of-countries-color-coded-by-their-openness-to-foreigners/)

~~~
pervycreeper
In-group altruism is correlated with out-group hostility.

~~~
adventured
They have to be, otherwise the vast welfare state system collapses. It's why
the big European welfare states can't handle huge amounts of immigration very
well. The greater the welfare state, the greater the influx of immigrants that
you're likely to see wanting to get there. The only reason the US was able to
absorb the massive immigration it did on a few occasions in its history, was
due to the almost complete non-existence of a welfare state at the time,
immigrants had to make it on their own at very limited additional cost to the
state or tax system. If you deployed a full European style welfare state in
the US, and then attempted that scale of immigration again, it would collapse
the political system and economy.

~~~
surfmike
Sweden has more immigrants per capita than the US. It doesn't seem to be
collapsing.

------
vessenes
The money quote is a few paragraphs in.

"Denmark has long led the continent in its shift to the right—and in its
growing domestic consensus that large-scale Muslim immigration is incompatible
with European social democracy."

Europeans have generally experienced good cultural assimilation from immigrant
populations, although I imagine conservative Jewish populations are an
exception, leading to some troubling parallels right now. American politics
and journalism make those parallels uncommonly mentioned in national media,
but we should be considering them as societies.

At the same time, lack of assimilation to these previously well functioning
societies is troubling. The lack of liberalism (in a formal sense, not an
American political sense) is here on HN, too; debate on the story about
whether religiously conservative men could/should be able to move women away
from their assigned seats on planes was shockingly vigorous to me. This seems
like a battle that countries like France and America helped win decades ago.

I read a suggestion many years ago (well before Turkey entered the EU) that in
part Northern European countries "worked" because of their social homogeneity,
and their success at cultural assimilation of immigrant populations. However
true that is or was, that homogeneity is seen as at risk right now.

Like anyone, I have some mixed feelings about this as seen from across the
Atlantic. I both like and dislike America's fragmented and vigorous culture,
and I think of these more homogenous countries like I think of the small town
I live in; with some rose colored glasses on about how 'nice' they must be.
And a small town can be nice. But, it can be nasty if you don't fit in. And a
small town with a massive population influx can lose its niceness quickly.

At any rate, it seems to me that Denmark should be allowed to ignore Syria if
it wants, and also turn away refugees if it wants, or vet them on whatever
criteria the country decides to. Right now liberal and right-wing (in the
European sense) politics are ending up in bed together over immigrants,
liberals on the behavior front, and right-wing on the culture front. Things
seem likely to get more heated and violent before they cool down.

~~~
useerup
> although I imagine conservative Jewish populations are an exception

I'm a dane living in Copenhagen. I am atheist as well. I really do not get
what you mean by "conservative Jewish populations are an exception" to good
cultural assimilation.

I grew up unaware of the jewish population, I studied and later worked with
several jews, unaware that they were in fact jewish, My wife had several
jewish friends from college. Except for the fact that some of them chose to
live "more" jewish than others - and generally take Fridays off - I have
_never_ ever noticed them to stand out in any way. In fact, I have known
several people for years without realizing that they were jewish.

They seem to have been assimilated to the point where it is actually a threat
to the (little) cultural diversity that Denmark has.

It is the same way in the other Scandinavian countries. Your comment is very,
very strange.

> I read a suggestion many years ago (well before Turkey entered the EU)

Turkey has not entered the EU. In fact, due to concerns about democracy and
human rights, they have not even been promised that they can start
negotiations.

> Like anyone, I have some mixed feelings about this as seen from across the
> Atlantic. I both like and dislike America's fragmented and vigorous culture,
> and I think of these more homogenous countries like I think of the small
> town I live in; with some rose colored glasses on about how 'nice' they must
> be.

One very important mechanism to make the Danish society work, is _trust_. We
are generous with welfare. We have paid education through college/university
or equivalent. In fact, in addition to free tuition, we will _pay_ you to take
an education. Danish "SU" ("Education Support") amounts to DKK5941 /month -
apx $10464/year.

The backside of the trust is, that one of the least socially acceptable things
you can do is to _cheat_ the generous system.

> At any rate, it seems to me that Denmark should be allowed to ignore Syria
> if it wants, and also turn away refugees if it wants, or vet them on
> whatever criteria the country decides to

It seems to me, that every country in the world - Denmark included - should
accept their fair share of refugees. Smaller populations with different
cultures are generally not a problem. Only when populations with very
different culture and religious views grows faster than their culture as well
as the host country culture can adapt to eachother do problems arise.

~~~
schoen
> In fact, I have known several people for years without realizing that they
> were jewish.

I'm sure those aren't the people the parent commenter was referring to.

Jews throughout the world follow an incredibly broad spectrum of belief and
practice, including an extremely broad set of views about how to relate to
other cultures. At the most conservative end, there are some communities who
view it as an essential life priority to try to follow all of the laws of the
Torah fully and literally. This may include not only the dietary and Sabbath
laws, but also rules about sexual modesty and limiting physical contact
between the sexes

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tzniut](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tzniut)

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negiah](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negiah)

and for some people also varying degrees of effort to limit social
interactions with non-Jews

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bishul_Yisrael](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bishul_Yisrael)

See generally

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haredi_Judaism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haredi_Judaism)

for the people who are making the most conscious effort to be socially and
culturally separate from secular society.

~~~
notahacker
It still seems very strange to single them out to Europeans, where strictly
observant Jews are a tiny minority, especially when in many respects the most
strictly observant Judaism resembles far more mainstream Islamic culture, with
Muslims being a much larger, more likely to be foreign-born and faster-growing
minority.

(This is also reflected in the way anti-Semitic sentiment in Western Europe
tends to focus on Israel and perceived Zionist conspiracies whilst
Islamophobic sentiment tends to focus on the idea that Islam could never be
compatible with European culture)

------
MIKarlsen
As a dane, I would like to point out that the largest group of "Muslisms-not-
welcome" are the people who are seemingly at the bottom of society. They are
the ones spewing uneducated nonsense on social media, and in general, have no
idea what they are talking about. Most of the time, their "solution" is simply
to "send them home". I feel bad for this group of people living in fear, when
there's (perhaps) not that much to fear. I can however understand that you
would feel threatened when you don't have an education, and can see the
government trying to help refugees by offering them the same jobs you would be
applying for.

Also, if you have any questions regarding this whole matter, I would like to
answer them as best as possible.

~~~
flexie
The US has still only welcomed 2,300 refugees. That is less than Denmark, a
country the size of the state of Maryland, received per month this fall. In
one week alone, Denmark received 11,000 refugees from the Middle East. I'd
like to see the reaction in American media if you received 300/6 x 10,000 =
500,000 refugees in one week. Denmark received 21,000 official asylum seekers
in 2015, most in the second half of the year, and mostly young men from Syria,
Iraq, Afghanistan etc. That is like if the US received 1 million. And on top
of that a much larger number seemingly just traveling through.

With 31 governors refusing to receive any Syrian refugees at all (and so too
your likely next president) I think Americans should keep the Euro bashing at
a minimum.

~~~
adventured
The US is and has been taking massive numbers of refugees from Latin America
(how many are European nations taking from Latin America?). Latin America over
the last 30 years has witnessed a lot of chaos, war, huge murder rates, etc.
of nearly the scale Syria is seeing. The murder rate in Honduras for example
is half the casualty rate of the Syrian civil war. How Honduras isn't
considered an active war zone I don't know. If Honduras were the size of
Syria, it would have seen upwards of 100,000 murders in just the last five
years. In just seven years in Mexico, around 164,000 people were murdered in
the cartel wars.

The US has taken in 10 million immigrants (twice the population of Denmark)
from just Mexico in the last 30 some years. You don't think those people are
every bit as much refugees as the people of Syria? They've fled intense
poverty and domestic war, and they're willing to die to try to get across the
US border to a better life.

How much more do you think the US can absorb exactly?

------
useracct567
As a brown man who's lived awhile in Northern Europe, watching this saga
unfold, I have to say the nimbyism shown by Denmark and Norway has been
astonishing. Only Sweden and Germany seem to still be able to hold their heads
high, actually treating brown people as humans without prejudice. Norway and
Denmark have shown small mindedness comparable to the likes of Poland and
Hungary while being vastly richer and better educated.

I've had to eat my prior words and praise sung in favor of N.Europe to my
friends and family and restrict it to just Sweden, because the entire world
can now see the reality of the actions taken in adversity by each of the
countries and not just the words.

It is a small matter of consolation that the iphones so many Danes and
Norwegians love is the brainchild of a man with Syrian blood whom they would
have refused to shelter while counting their nickels and dimes. They are
welcome to deal with that cognitive dissonance as they fade into the twilight
of history while hoping the names of their ancestors are not much tarnished by
the actions of the current generation. It would take a long time for the world
to forget these things.

~~~
digi_owl
For Norway it is a perfect storm. A right wing coalition government (with the
"extreme" right wing party as member for the first time in history no less), a
slump in the oil price, and therefore a slump in offshore related services and
industries, and a influx of refugees, in particularly across the border with
Russia.

Its basically a very messy situation.

------
Netwt
Denmark values their own way of life more than a stranger's. I admire them.

------
smegel
How dare you be a sovereign nation with a border!

~~~
tim333
Though Denmark signed up to the Schengen Agreement allowing border-free travel
in the EU.

~~~
dijit
And, to be fair, Sweden did start border control first.

------
mercurial
I'd like to add a few points to the article. First, the party which got the
most votes at the election was SD, the center-left Social Democrats, not DF
(Dansk Folkeparti). However, overall the left-wing "red block" did not have
enough representatives to form a coalition government. Out of the right-wing
"blue block", DF was the party with the most votes [1].

Secondly, the current conservative government has indeed a tough line when it
comes to asylum seekers and refugees. Their allies from DF have in particular
an obsession for muslims, which leads to fairly transparent measure such as
mandating the presence of pork in menus offered by the city of Randers to
"preserve Danish food traditions" [2].

If we ignore momentarily foaming-at-the-mouth-about-muslims-but-we're-really-
not-racist DF types, it's hard to deny there are real integration issues with
immigrant populations. However, I wouldn't be so quick to put the blame
squarely on these people. You regularly have tests which show that, depending
on how ethnically Danish the name on your resume sounds, your chances of
getting an interview, all other things being equal, are drastically different.
And I have the feeling that anti-Muslim feelings have become relatively
mainstream.

On the other hand, you do have a number of Muslim extremists which clearly
have absolutely no intention of integrating and who'd be better off emigrating
to Saudi Arabia, for everybody's good.

1:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danish_general_election,_2015](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danish_general_election,_2015)

2: [http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2016/01/danish-city-pork-
prote...](http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2016/01/danish-city-pork-protect-food-
culture-160122075225203.html)

3: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hizb_ut-
Tahrir](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hizb_ut-Tahrir)

------
ulrikmoe
Yes, we reduced social benefits to refugees by 45%, from $1600/month to
$871/month, which means that we now provide roughly the same as in Norway and
Sweden. If that is harsh then I'd rather not tell you what I think of the
Mexico–U.S. border. Please America, go fix your own problems before you point
fingers at your friends.

------
guard-of-terra
I envy Danes, at least they seem to decide for themselves.

I can't, most of people in most of countries can't too. We're instead driven
by a combination of dictatorship, baseless populism promoting things nobody
wants, alienation ans promoting political agenda over citizens' wishes.

------
a_imho
The article says 2016, March 10, any idea why?

------
hackuser
It seems like a political problem, like most of Europe's problems. People just
aren't choosing to work on obvious solutions to the problems, like a
coordinated EU-wide refugee program. There is no question Denmark (and others)
can afford the refugees, and the refugees certainly are not going to threaten
the national security of any nation.

As in the US, the problem is politics. Climate change, health care, judges,
and most of the rest of the issues have obvious solutions, it's just that some
politicians currently refuse to participate on the grounds that other
Americans also get a say in what happens (it is a democracy, after all).
Unless they get their way 100%, undemocratically imposing their will on the
rest of the country, no matter what their fellow citizens vote for, they won't
act.

