
Guild Wars studio fires two employees after clash with streamer - mavhc
https://www.theverge.com/2018/7/6/17541318/guild-wars-arenanet-jessica-price-peter-fries-fired-reddit
======
holografix
Really caught by surprise by some of the answers here, I don’t mean to offend
anyone, just trying to explain why I came to the conclusion I came to.

I think the article is fairly well balanced, giving the fired devs ample space
to tell their side of the story, expanding on the dangerous implications of
allowing reddit/social media influence the company’s hiring and firing
decisions and a short formal statement from the co-founder.

There seems to have been a mixture of bad HR guidelines and naïveté.

I’m frankly appalled that a politely explained, disagreeing opinion, was met
with such a toxic response.

As I read the responses I understood the dev to be:

Calling a customer sexist and an “asshat” then explaining that she is free to
demonstrate dislike for her customers while speaking about the company and its
products and services because she is not doing it during work hours and is
using a personal social media account.

I can only imagine what kind of anonymous adolescent vitriol she must have to
endure but as a representative of the company she must remain above it.

Should they have been fired?

Not if it’s the 1st occurrence but seriously reprimanded and explained the
social media code of conduct carefully.

On the other hand the company has a duty of care for its employees.

Can it not facilitate automatic reporting of abusive messages back to
Twitter/Reddit? Hold workshops on how to deal with online harassment?

It seems like it’s a huge issue in the game industry.

------
Rjevski
Totally deserved IMO.

The employee in question posted some tweets about “narrative design” and some
streamer (seemingly politely) replied that he disagreed before reiterating the
same points the employee made.

The employee then goes on a mildly offensive rant about how that person was
“mansplaining” and how hard it is to be a female game dev.

How about you simply accept that some people on the internet are stupid, will
make stupid remarks and may think they’re better than you at your job, and it
doesn’t have anything to do with your gender?

~~~
detaro
I'm not quite sure how a single "mildy offensive rant" justifies someone being
fired, instead of a simple "please don't do that again"?

~~~
Rjevski
That employee sparked potential controversy by bringing in gender & sexism
into a thread that didn’t need it; and such a sensitive topic could lead to a
huge fallout for the company. This entire argument should’ve ended with a “you
are wrong” reply or simply ignoring (and potentially blocking).

~~~
DanBC
But gender was relevant. You're failing to understand the relentless toxic
entitlement shown by many young adult male gamers. That's toxic to everyone,
but it's more severe and frequent for women.

~~~
0xBA5ED
You're failing to understand the relentless toxic entitlement shown by many
female game devs.

See how I can turn that around and it's just as "true" as your statement, yet
doesn't do anything whatsoever for the conversation?

------
SuperNinKenDo
I have to say that despite the perspective taken by the author, I'm finding it
hard to sympathise with the ex-enployees in question. What an absolute
overreaction, and display of dangerous levels of insecurity.

------
TheChaplain
Is The Verge considered to practice good journalism? Reading the article it
doesn't seem objective but rather inflammatory.

But maybe it is intentional? In order to "fish" for more reader interaction
and sharing.

~~~
digi_owl
IMO, Verge was a shit show from day one...

------
js8
Just my opinion, but employees really should start organizing and demand free
speech laws to cover work. It's insane that skilled people are fired over some
minor disagreement on Twitter.

~~~
kranner
Minor disagreement? This was a series of tweets related to an AMA. The other
person made some perfectly civil remarks pertinent to the discussion that
could have been engaged with, or could have been ignored. Instead the employee
went on an ad hominem rampage, calling the commenter a "rando asshat" who was
purporting to tell her how to do her job. Then she brags about her 10 years of
work experience in game dev, which apparently makes her infallible. Then she
made it about gender. From my third-party disinterested point of view, she was
the one harassing him at this point. It makes sense to me that the company
broke off their association with her after this.

~~~
js8
Whatever she said, it has nothing to do with her company and her company
shouldn't get involved in the punishment (should there be any at all).

Let's say I am employee of a company, which makes computers, and I have a
disagreement with my neighbor. He is a customer of that company, because he
bought a computer from them. Does that mean I can be fired? How is that
different from a police state?

No, society needs to wake up and determine where are the boundaries of this.
The truth is, social media put everything, even companies, under wider
scrutiny than ever before.

It's like when a printing press was invented, it put governments under wider
scrutiny. They fought back, and it took 500 years before it became generally
accepted that we should have free speech.

~~~
0xBA5ED
Well, if you posted about your company's work on a public forum, and the
disagreement was with regard to that, I believe it's fair if the company feels
your behavior, good or bad, reflects on them. Employment is more of a
relationship than a right. It's just bad form to blow up at customers like
that.

~~~
js8
You could also say:

"If you posted about your nation's situation on a public forum, and the
disagreement was with regard to that, I believe it's fair if the government
feels your behavior, good or bad, reflects on them. Citizenship is more of a
relationship than a right."

Yet, in the West at least, we disagree with this view, that people should be
punished if they talk badly about their nation (and the government). It didn't
come naturally to this point; it was a huge effort of many activists over
centuries to get to that point. And I think the same should be true about
employees, and that it's time we have a debate about that.

~~~
0xBA5ED
This is absurd. Employee/employer relationship is nowhere near the same as
citizen/government relationship.

~~~
js8
It's not the same, of course. In the past, citizen/government relationship was
the only social hierarchy in town and not offending people in the hierarchy
was a matter of life and death.

Eventually, we replaced it with many little social hierarchies, like
employee/employer, but social hierarchies nonetheless. Now it's only a minor
inconvenience in life to make any of those little emperors angry.

However, that said, the arguments for free speech are the same. People should
have freedom to speak truth to power and this freedom is beneficial. This
includes freedom to speak truth to the outsiders of the social group in which
the hierarchy happens to be. And it also establishes the boundary where that
social hierarchy can extends its power.

~~~
0xBA5ED
You're overthinking it. ArenaNet is a business. She was their employee. This
relationship is voluntary on both sides.

If she behaves in a manner which undermines their interests, they have every
right to terminate the relationship.

The person she blew up on is a streamer with significant exposure to their
target market. If she wasn't mixing "work talk" into her personal account and
the disagreement was not related to work, I think it would be a different
story, but that isn't what happened.

------
NeedMoreTea
In what world does that rate a firing? Looks like it should rate at most
"don't be grouchy on twitter" from a manager. Firing someone with 12 year
seniority for defending them? Now that rates a firing - of the manager.

A quick skim of the linked forum shows it to be the usual whiny entitled place
that is most game forums and the statement calling it "attacks on the
community" is comical. Is such obsequiousness what we now expect?

~~~
0xBA5ED
Maybe it isn't the first time her short fuse got her into trouble at the
company. Triggering a social media backlash might've been the last straw.

~~~
lambada
According to the Price in the article, this was her first such offence.

>Price says that prior to being fired, the company had never discussed her
social media presence with her or issued a warning for anything she had
posted. “If it was covered in orientation, I wouldn’t know. I got pulled out
of orientation to jump into rebreaking the story arc for this season of Living
World.”

~~~
0xBA5ED
Her first offence with respect to social media, yes. That's all you can say.

~~~
lambada
True; but we have no evidence either way for whether any other offences have
occured.

~~~
0xBA5ED
My only point was: Maybe the situation is more nuanced than how it is
presented in the article (which is usually the case).

------
tjpnz
I suspect this wouldn't be the first time the employee in question would've
been disciplined by their employer. Based solely on the relative speed to
which gender was introduced into the debate.

------
drasticmeasures
Might as well title it "Woman game-dev and meant-well co-worker lose their
jobs over immature 'mansplaining' Twitter fight turned political."

The chain of events:

1\. A woman game dev posts something work-related. Innocuous enough so far.

2\. Some guy on Twitter annoyingly tells her how to do her job better.

3\. The game dev overreacts, humiliates the guy and turns it political. This
was unprofessional and stupid.

4\. Said guy on Twitter overreacts as well. Oh boy. Stupid, but he has nothing
to lose but his time and dignity.

5\. As things get uglier, a co-worker of hers decides it's a good idea to risk
his career and join in the now politically charged discussion. Unsurprisingly,
it doesn't go well for him.

6\. In a perfect storm of stupidity and immaturity from all sides, it
snowballs on Twitter. Woman game devs get people on Twitter SO MAD.

7\. The game company fires her and her co-worker as damage control. They were
justified to do this, since they acted unprofessionally, but this turned out
to be a PR disaster for them. No way to win. That's what they get for
associating with fools.

8\. The media smells blood in the water like the sharks they are. It's a
national political issue now. And yet, it's such a stupid, pointless fight
that made 2 people lose their jobs over something so frivolous as
"mansplaining".

I have no comment. Why get depressed when you can just point and laugh?

------
analognoise
Takeaway: Game development is toxic, don't work there.

~~~
Rjevski
The gaming community is toxic in general but frankly this is not the issue
here. The employee simply overreacted, responded offensively and got fired.

~~~
analognoise
Game developers get torrents of abuse - the comments on the Reddit thread, and
the stuff that has been sent to them since, is appalling.

Sure, the employee shouldn't have reacted that way, but I think I'd have
snapped long before then. Besides that, it was their personal twitter feed.

A quick "Hey, please don't feed these trolls, it makes us look bad" email to
the employee probably would have sufficed, but firing them was terrible
management - look how it has emboldened the strident, entitled little shits
who don't realize there are actual human beings making the games.

The best thing that will come of all this is that these two will find better
jobs elsewhere, preferably somewhere the management has backbone.

~~~
zeeZ
If your Twitter bio includes your affiliation with the company and you're
talking about your job it's no longer purely personal IMHO.

Of course opinions posted are your own and such, but you're still somewhat
representing the company.

------
matxip
Jessica price has a history of saying pretty offensive stuff (e.g., and in
particular, a mean spirited comment about a youtubers death [0]), but she
wasn't ever fired for those. I think she was fired this time because she was
on social media talking _specifically_ about work, then going on to insult
Guild Wars fans and beyond that, multiple 'partners'[1]. Derior in particular
has a named NPC in-game [2].

To give some more context in general, this takes place right after an AMA on
the guildwars2 subreddit [3] -- which she starts her twitter thread by
referencing -- where she was acting in an official capacity as a GW2
developer. She later goes on to say she doesn't have to pretend to like people
in the context of twitter [4], which I took to mean as in contrast to the AMA.

And in case there is any question about if the streamer was coming from a
negative place and that she was at least right about his intentions, he was
praising her in particular on a stream just before the exchange [5]. It's
almost tragic. He probably only engaged with her because he thought so much of
her.

All this said, I think it more sad than anything. Jessica actually gave some
pretty great answers in the AMA, and I was impressed just like Deroir. I was
very surprised to see this rash behavior right after her measure responses.
And to also lose Peter Fries, who has been with the franchise since either the
beginning or very near it, is disheartening.

Also, I think the article is avoiding posting Derior's entire original comment
since he ends it very politely. You might want to check all 4 tweets yourself
[6], or even the entire thread. Keep in mind that Jessica Price goes on to
make other tweets outside the thread though. I guess it's also worth
mentioning that the reddit comment referenced in the article had negative
karma and was deleted [7].

[0]
[https://twitter.com/delafina777/status/1000045432007938048](https://twitter.com/delafina777/status/1000045432007938048)

[1] [https://welcome.guildwars2.com/en/partner-
program](https://welcome.guildwars2.com/en/partner-program)

[2]
[https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Deroir](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Deroir)

[3]
[https://old.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/8vm8jv/living_w...](https://old.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/8vm8jv/living_world_season_4_long_live_the_lich_devs/)

[4]
[https://twitter.com/Delafina777/status/101458143393798144](https://twitter.com/Delafina777/status/101458143393798144)

[5]
[https://clips.twitch.tv/CrypticMistyStingrayDxCat](https://clips.twitch.tv/CrypticMistyStingrayDxCat)

[6]
[https://twitter.com/DeroirGaming/status/1014280605599748096](https://twitter.com/DeroirGaming/status/1014280605599748096)

[7] [https://archive.fo/lt0wU](https://archive.fo/lt0wU)

------
DuskStar
Something I think is missing here (and in the article) is a transcript of the
conversation in question. So here's one I grabbed from the SSC subreddit
culture war thread [0] permalink[1]:

\------------------------------------------------------

Jessica Price:

>Since I spent all kinds of time saying it on a Reddit AMA, and I haven't
talked about actual game dev on Twitter in a while, here's a thread about
writing for the PC character in an MMO.

>The dirty secret is I'm not sure if it's possible to make an MMORPG (or CRPG)
character compelling, because people have different expectations about what
that character will be, as opposed to a pre-designed character in a single-
player game.

>People booting up Bioshock know they're playing Jack. People starting
Dishonored know they're playing Corvo. People beginning Tomb Raider know
they're playing Lara Croft. So in those games, you have more wiggle room to
make the protagonist an actual character.

>Whereas in an RPG, where the player chooses all kinds of character options
and names their character and designs their face and so on, they feel more
ownership over that character. They're not playing a character YOU designed--
they're playing a character THEY designed.

>So if Jack or Lara or Corvo says or does something the player doesn't feel
that THEY would say or do, the player's more forgiving, because they have the
expectation that they're piloting a character someone else created.

>N.B. that I'm not talking about overall plot objectives/quests. Players know
going in that the game is going to be telling them what to do, and their
character is going to do it, and that holds true even when they've "created"
the character.

>But the * interpersonal* stuff, the PC's REACTIONS, players respond strongly
to. Some people don't like it if they think their character's responding in
ways that make them too much of an asshole. Some don't like it if their
character's responses seem weak.

>So, basically, most things that you'd do writing-wise to give a character,
well, CHARACTER, are going to upset a large contingent, maybe even a majority,
of your players.

>So--I know I've said this before on Twitter, but it's still going to weird
people out, but please bear with me--you have to construct your MMO/RPG's PC
character's dialogue as if they were Bella Swan from Twilight.

>To be clear, I don't think Twilight is good writing. I don't think Bella
Swan's a well-constructed book character. And I think people who criticize
Twilight for the latter are correct but also missing the reason for Twilight's
popularity.

>Because Twilight isn't the love story of Bella and Edward. It's the *
experience of being loved by Edward.* Which is why Bella's constructed the way
she is.

>Bella Swan is a carefully constructed blank space, with JUST enough
personality to function. All of her personality traits are chosen to avoid
preventing the reader from inserting themselves into the space she holds in
the story.

>She's a bit of a klutz, but JUST enough to make her endearing, not enough to
prevent her from actually doing anything the story needs her to do. She's a
little bit awkward. JUST enough to be relatable but not enough to actually
hinder her. And so on.

>And essentially, we have to write the player character in an MMO/RPG the same
way.

>Specifically in GW2, in the Living World, we can write the Commander with a
bit of wry exasperation, a hint of impatience, a touch of "okay, I'm done
fooling around with this crap and I'm going to take charge," but most of their
lines have to be pretty devoid of personality.

>Because if we give them too much personality, it might clash with how the
player is imagining Their Commander.

>So, how do we tell a TV-like season of story with a protagonist who can't
really have a personality?

>The answer to that, and I dunno, maybe this is too much of how the sausage
gets made but whaddaya want from me, any sense of shame I had burned out a
long time ago: SLEIGHT OF HAND.

>We SUGGEST that the Commander has a personality in how the other characters
interact with and react to them. Even there, we have to be super-careful. We
can't even have THEM directly characterize the Commander.

>You'll rarely hear a character say anything about what the Commander always
does or doesn't do, except when it's PURELY factual because it's something the
game design FORCED the PC to do.

>E.g. "the Commander always finds a way!" because literally if you don't we'll
resurrect you until you do.

>We have NPCs react to you with affection, or irritation, or leeriness, or
whatever, to suggest that your character has regular habits and ways of
interacting that build these relationships. But for the most part, they don't.

>The PC is who you imagine them to be, and the NPCs react in ways that have to
FEEL personal, and build a story, while not conflicting with whatever you're
imagining your character's personality to be. We WANT you to project.

>Which makes writing the NPCs' relationships with the PC basically like
writing horoscopes. It has to feel specific and personal while actually being
universal.

>So:

>A) VERY delicate sketches of non-objectionable personality traits (like a
hint of wryness or world-weariness)

>B) NPCs that behave as if your character has a distinct personality while not
doing so in ways that actually identify what it is

>C) one-sided relationship-building

>Voila. An MMO/RPG character.

>Needless to say, a lot of the color comes from NPCs' relationships with EACH
OTHER, even though we try to keep it centered on the PC as much as possible.

>It is a constant, very fragile calibration. We don't always get it right.

>Incidentally, if you've played Ep 3 of this season of GW2's Living World,
you've seen this sort of writing taken to an extreme in Joko's final
monologue.

>Almost everything he says is about actions the game has forced you to take,
not your own character traits, and he's clearly projecting when he talks about
what you were thinking, but it's--hopefully!--constructed in a way that feels
personal, like he's twisting the knife.

Deroir:

>Really interesting thread to read! However, allow me to disagree * slightly*
. I dont believe the issue lies in the MMORPG genre itself (as your wording
seemingly suggest). I believe the issue lies in the contraints of the Living
Story's narrative design; (1 of 3)

>When you want the outcome to be the same across the board for all players'
experiences, then yes, by design you are extremely limited in how you can
contruct the personality of the PC. (2 of 3)

>But, if instead players were given the option to meaningfully express *
their* character through branching dialogue options (which also aren't just on
the checklist for an achievement that forces you through all dialogue
options), (3 of 4 cause I count seemingly...)

>then perhaps players would be more invested in the roleplaying aspect of that
particular MMORPG. Nonetheless, I appreciate the insightful thread! (End)

Jessica Price:

>thanks for trying to tell me what we do internally, my dude 9_9

Deroir:

>You getting mad at my obvious attempt at creating dialogue and discussion
with you, instead of just replying that I am wrong or otherwise correct me in
my false assumptions, is really just disheartening for me. You do you though.
I'm sorry if it offended. I'll leave you to it.

Jessica Price:

>Today in being a female game dev:

>"Allow me--a person who does not work with you--explain to you how you do
your job."

Deroir:

>So much for an open discussion I guess. I meant no disrespect AT ALL. Never
did. Never will. Neither did I imply I knew better. Nor has this ANYTHING to
do with gender. Never did. Never will. I will retract my comment, cause
obviously I'm in the wrong forum for this kind of talk.

___________

More Jessica Price, in relation to the above chain but not posted as replies
to them

>like, the next rando asshat who attempts to explain the concept of branching
dialogue to me--as if, you know, having worked in game narrative for a fucking
DECADE, I have never heard of it--is getting instablocked. PSA.

>Since we've got a lot of hurt manfeels today, lemme make something clear:
this is my feed. I'm not on the clock here. I'm not your emotional courtesan
just because I'm a dev. Don't expect me to pretend to like you here.

>The attempts of fans to exert ownership over our personal lives and times are
something I am hardcore about stopping. You don't own me, and I don't owe you.

links to some of the tweets:

[https://twitter.com/Delafina777/status/1014555719352213504](https://twitter.com/Delafina777/status/1014555719352213504)

[https://twitter.com/Delafina777/status/1014581433937981445](https://twitter.com/Delafina777/status/1014581433937981445)

[https://twitter.com/Delafina777/status/1014554296107483136](https://twitter.com/Delafina777/status/1014554296107483136)

[https://twitter.com/DeroirGaming/status/1014280605599748096](https://twitter.com/DeroirGaming/status/1014280605599748096)

_________

[https://clips.twitch.tv/CrypticMistyStingrayDxCat](https://clips.twitch.tv/CrypticMistyStingrayDxCat)

here is like a 1 minute of the guy that talked to her about this, talking
about her like 2 days before this all went. the dude idolized her. He's also
an "arenanet partner" and popular streamer of the game; he has an NPC named
after him in it.

\------------------------------------------------------

Some formatting was changed (escaping of * characters)

0:
[https://www.reddit.com/r/slatestarcodex/comments/8vhj05/cult...](https://www.reddit.com/r/slatestarcodex/comments/8vhj05/culture_war_roundup_for_the_week_of_july_02_2018/)

1:
[https://www.reddit.com/r/slatestarcodex/comments/8vhj05/cult...](https://www.reddit.com/r/slatestarcodex/comments/8vhj05/culture_war_roundup_for_the_week_of_july_02_2018/e1yw2h7/)

