
What no one talks about when running and selling a business - nreece
https://medium.com/@kenanhopkins/in-2016-i-sold-my-startup-for-seven-figures-a3c60db80947#.q5cmisbmo
======
GoRudy
I also sold my startup. same story as far as revenue, exit etc. I'm not sure
that selling your company was the reason for your social issues.

I've had the best year of my life post acquisition - spending more time with
family, friends and thinking what's next. constantly thinking about what's
next, it's actually annoying that I can't turn it off.

The "how much did you make" question is super annoying and it happens but
generally those around me are respctful and understand that I still plan to
work and in many ways will need to. Not enough to do nothing, enough to choose
something meaningful and not waste our precious time.

My only advice to you is don't be afraid to reconnect with some old friends
and embrace new ones, especially friends of friend who don't know much about
your exit and ask to hang out with you because of who you are when they
interact with you sans knowing your financial history.

~~~
nugget
I think this was a pretty shallow article. The author comes off as somewhat
abrasive personality-wise. He's a natural born leader - we are reassured
multiple times - but he seems to repeatedly annoy people in his life and can't
figure out how to get 3 or 4 band-mates to follow him. OK.

A lot of the money troubles are more about wealth inequality than anything
specific to the startup world. When you're wealthy, you need to learn to be
sensitive to the everyday financial concerns of those who aren't. You could be
subjected to this as an entrepreneur, a physician, a lawyer, or countless
other professions, not to mention heirs, lottery winners, or folks who marry
into money. Planetary coexistence 101.

Friendship is a two-way street. As I became wealthier through successive exits
there were some people from my childhood who I stayed friends with, thanks to
conscious effort from both sides. These are very valuable friendships.

He says 'material things don't matter' but doesn't expound much, leaving us
with the implication that money doesn't matter at all. Money is the freedom to
spend your time however you want to, and that's pretty damn valuable. The
author's real problem may be that work became his sole identity - and that now
having earned some freedom, he has no idea what to do with it. I wish him
well.

~~~
reddytowns
"Learning to be sensitive" is a bit of a cure all. Your best bet is to move
somewhere else and pretend to be poor.

I know we like to put poor people up on a pedestal, and if we just act the
right way, they'll accept you as one of there own, but a millionaire will
_never_ be accepted as intimately into a group as a person with similar
financial status as them.

~~~
aninhumer
Unless someone grew up poor and then made their money very quickly, they'll
probably have a very different cultural background, which makes "pretending to
be poor" extremely difficult. Poor people will notice that they're different
even if they don't know it's because they're rich.

~~~
reddytowns
The poor may know they are different but they'll be more likely accepted than
a rich person. There are a whole lot of poor people that are odd in some way,
it's not hard to blend in.

People seek understanding, not necessarily similarity. Also, like it or not,
jealousy plays a big part as to whether someone is accepted or not.

Besides which, the story is about an entrepreneur, who was trying to connect
with the type of people he was around when he was not rich.

------
eric_b
I'm not sure I love the article, but I agree with the author's sentiment. I'm
4 years in to a successful bootstrapped startup, and I've lost many close
acquaintances. I simply don't have time to keep the social connections alive
and I have not prioritized them. I'm somewhat introverted by nature so this is
not really a major concern of mine at this time, but I suspect it may be a
regret later.

What is challenging for me is the fact that most people cannot relate to my
life. They can't understand why you'd work 60+ hours a week on a fledgling
business. They can't understand the obsession and inability to "turn it off."
They don't understand what it takes to get a customer to actually pay you, let
alone build something people enjoy using and solves problems. I do find that
many folks assume you just "lucked" your way in to success.

And I think bootstrapped business owners have it the worst of all. It's
comparably easy to spend VC cash once you get funding, rather than money from
"your own pocket." It's not hard to justify hiring 5 people when the VCs
explicitly tell you that's what the money is for. Bootstrapping a successful
business is indeed a rare feat, and only the people who've been there can
understand exactly how all consuming and difficult it is. (At least, that's
been my experience so far)

~~~
luckydude
The "lucked into" thing resonates with me. I've done pretty well and have had
a zillion people tell me I got lucky.

I used to really resent that. I bootstrapped my company, I took no salary for
the first 2-3 years, instead I was out consulting to bring in money so I could
pay the people who worked for me. That didn't seem like luck to me.

I built technology that most of you use daily, before I came along people
thought the answer to their SCM problems was Subversion. I had to fight like
crazy to get smart people like Linus to understand that I had a better answer.
It was tons and tons of work. Getting people to see the value of what I had
built didn't seem like luck to me.

I built a viable business and did all the sales. I used a portable phone with
a base station that had an extra battery and it was routine that I would have
to flip over to speaker phone, swap batteries, and continue the sales calls.
16 hour days were the norm on the phone.

My view was that it wasn't luck, it was hard work. A lot of hard work.

My view evolved. Yep, I did a ton of work, many many 80 hour weeks. Any
founder knows what that is like. But there was an element of luck involved - I
was at the right place, at the right time, with the right answers. Multiple
times in my career that has happened. Is all the credit due to me? Not really,
the luck part is being in a place where your work will go somewhere. You have
to do all that hard work _and_ you have to get lucky, hard work is not enough.

And that is why I log in as luckydude.

~~~
monodeldiablo
Bless you. Seriously.

It's truly refreshing to hear such genuine humility and perspective. Too many
people (on HN, in politics, and in everyday life) work hard, hit it big, then
draw a 100% correlation between the two. The reality is that lots of people
are working hard, and only a tiny percentage get rich from it. Luck -- birth,
education, time, place -- is too often underestimated in the rush to claim
personal credit.

Like you, I have been profoundly lucky. I've worked hard for my piece, but I'd
never be able to honestly look my lower-middle-class extended family in the
eyes and tell them my wealth came because I worked harder than them. Because
that would be a lie.

~~~
return0
humility ? What is this 'humility' you speak of?

There is a war on humility for like 20 years now. Things that people
unashamedly say today would label them total lunatics 2 decades ago.

~~~
blunte
I think that's because perceptions about what makes success have slowly
shifted from the long path of toil to the superawesome promotion game.

It's like the political cartoon I saw from a few months ago. The Jeopardy-
style host said, “I’m sorry, Jeannie, your answer was correct, but Kevin
shouted his incorrect answer over yours, so he gets the points.”
[http://www.newyorker.com/cartoons/a20602](http://www.newyorker.com/cartoons/a20602)

Given the state of funding and never-profitable unicorns, it teaches new
entrepreneurs that the way to success is through promotion and emotion.

------
smaili
_Unfortunately, I no longer have very many friends. I worked so hard in my 20s
and early 30s that I let my closest relationships lapse in the name of making
money. It’s tough to keep friends around when you’re either working, or work
is on your mind 24 /7._

One of the unfortunate side effects of hustle/grit/what have you, that I
myself experienced and can relate to the author.

~~~
hackits
ammmm, if your friendship requires constant hand holding then I would say it
would better to lose them faster (early on) because they're not going to be
around when you hit the hard times.

My definition of a friend is someone you can rely on when things goes to shit
eg... Being half way across the country and you've just been robbed and they
drive 20 hours to pick you up.

Now if they cannot even meet you half way across town because you have a
deadline then I will say you don't have a friend.

~~~
alpha_squared
> My definition of a friend is someone you can rely on when things goes to
> shit eg... Being half way across the country and you've just been robbed and
> they drive 20 hours to pick you up.

Yes, that's one possible quality in a friend. Another is making time for
_their_ shit as well and it doesn't sound like the author did very much of
that. It's also nice to make time for friends without having to deal with
either yours or their dilemmas and just enjoy each other's company.

~~~
conductr
Agree with the dilemma free part. I've found "adult" friendship works like
this. Just hang out catch up have fun. Don't call me when your car breaks
down, call a tow truck. I won't ask you to help me move, I'll hire movers.

The story of your car breaking down is good stuff. Let's talk about it over
beers.

However, I say that with a realization that poorer people don't operate this
way. They are still very much "it takes a village" and help each other with
life's problems. Where I can relate with OP is when talking to these friends
I'll say something like "move?! Eff that it's July/hot you just need to hire
someone" without realizing they would not consider doing so as it's way too
expensive for them. Then I look like a jerk because I would never consider
doing manual labor in the heat

~~~
wruza
I offer them money. That may _sound_ as jerk, but actually if you're serious
and open, they will not blame you even if rejected. There is no real
difference between "help me" and "give me money". Once everyone gets it,
things become much easier.

On TFA's money part: I wonder if he offered any help to his relatives after he
got money. Buy them a present like ps4 for their kids or new tv. Help solving
bureaucrative issue. Take them to their comfortable bar for free. No, he goes
to poor house and makes jokes about tesla issues. Real jerk.

~~~
awfgylbcxhrey
_There is no real difference between "help me" and "give me money"._

There's a huge difference. Actively putting in work alongside someone is a
great bonding experience. Being "in it" with someone is completely different
from putting up some money.

------
austincheney
You don't have to have a multi-million dollar exit to go through this. You
just have to find yourself in a position where you had some amazing
responsibility and direction and now you don't in a way that mere mortals
cannot relate. There are numerous different ways to get there.

My story:

For just about ever I have been a developer in the civilian world and an Army
reservist. Normally the Army reserves thing is just a part time weekend gig
doing some really boring administrative work, but sometimes its more.

The first time I was in management I was 24 years old. I hadn't finished my
bachelor's degree yet. I was working as the tech lead of network operations in
a group called TNOSC. This network, though, covered all of US and coalition
forces in Kuwait, Iraq, and Afghanistan except for airport control systems.

This was in 2004 during the post-invasion surge into Iraq. I am not sure how
many dedicated users I had (maybe 100,000) but there around 300,000 people who
were impacted by my network between coalition military forces and supporting
civilians. For perspective 300,000 is bigger than Google, Facebook, Microsoft,
and Apple combined. In that management position I published the organization's
taskorg (a diagram of who owns who plus the structure of our clients). We had
two dedicated brigades to manage and my higher authority was CENTCOM with a
dotted line to DISA. My clients were two 3-stars and a 4-star.

Running that organization was somewhat like running a start-up in reverse. We
already had business and dedicate clients to support, but just jumping you are
actually figure out the necessary relationships and how to do the technical
aspects of your job. Life doesn't wait for you to catch up. You just have to
figure everything out immediately.

In the real world I am software developer. I am not in management. I don't
even bring up the prior military story. People simply cannot relate. They know
the corporate world they are isolated into. In the civilian world you don't
get magically dropped into that kind of position out of the blue.

Furthermore, people outside the military are more fragile. In the civilian
world one of the most important interpersonal qualities is kindness while in
the military kindness isn't valued. In the military kindness is like hard
work. In most jobs nobody is rewarded for hard work. They are reward for what
they accomplish. Hard work is silently implied. In the military what's
important is honesty, respect (above and below), and bluntness.

I find in the corporate world I am constantly tempering my words and using my
"inside voice" so that I don't come off as offensive. It is so easy to come
off as an arrogant dick. People who have known me for a while or been through
similar environments get it, but for everybody else its too easy to look like
an asshole.

This is even more true in that I work as a web (JavaScript) developer. The
most frequent kind of developer in the web are people who don't want to be
there, have absolutely no regard for the technologies, and wish they were
doing something else. The other extreme are immature childish developers who
work in the web because it has a lower barrier to entry in the contributor
roles require a large dose of abstractions and dependencies for every aspect
of their job. Both of these groups are different shades of imposters who
constantly live in fear that they will be discovered. _Pro tip_ \- Everybody
knows who the imposters are. I sure as hell cannot relate my military
experiences to these groups who hanging to their one and only career by their
nails.

~~~
marktangotango
I get your frustration, this might sound banal, but that's why we're called
'veterans'. There's a lot of absurd, stupid stuff in the (US) military. But
when it's firing on all cylinders it can truly be site to behold. It can be
simple things, like imagine any civilian organization lining up at 6:30am,
1,000+ people stepping off to run at the same moment; in winter, in the cold,
in the dark. That's a brigade run in the army. Happens all the time. To me the
big thing is leadership. Top down and bottom up. Professionalism and personal
accountability. You just don't see that in the civilian world.

I was talking to an older guy at work last week. He was talking about
something military related using "that" tone of voice and some authority.
Turned out he was a vet, first gulf war, air borne freaking ranger, now
enterprise architect. I was amazed. Civilians just don't understand. Nor
should they.

------
jacquesm
I don't see the correlation between 'being an asshole' and 'sold my start-up'.

There are plenty of successful entrepreneurs that are perfectly capable of
relating to others and treating their fellow men, friends and family with
dignity and respect.

Some people succeed because they're playing nice with others, some succeed in
spite of not being able to do so, some even succeed _because_ they are are
assholes.

There is no correlation here and you probably won't be able to extract many
lessons from this piece, no one talks about it because it isn't a particularly
common experience.

Wealth does not typically turn assholes in to non-assholes.

~~~
searchfaster
Exactly... I had the opportunity to meet an almost Billion dollar company
founder. I went in feeling awkward but he was very nice, treated me with
dignity and respect and never once did I feel uncomfortable. Within minutes, I
felt like I was conversing with any one of my other colleagues or friends.

~~~
yourapostasy
This is a learned skill anyone can refine, even before picking up their FU
money, at virtually any income level. Even if you are a uni student; perhaps
_especially_ if you are a uni student. Nearly anywhere you go in the world,
there will be people living in destitution on the streets. While a good
proportion in the US have mental and substance abuse issues, an astounding
number are starved for simple, decent, human companionship. Just someone,
anyone, who treats them as another decent human being. Instead of a "drive-
by", "dialing-it-in" donation where you hand them some goods and/or money,
receive a "thank you", and that is the extent of the interaction (though they
do appreciate that as well).

Sit down with them. Offer to buy them a meal at a nearby diner and say you
want someone to chat with. Ask them how their day has been. Be a
conversationalist to listen to their stories; and boy, do some of them ever
have stories. Imagine you two are sitting next to each other on the same bus,
and have an hour until you reach your destination.

------
nebabyte
Sounds like the author has personal problems they're mistakenly ascribing to
their work. Many of their assertions are simply not true (It's possible to be
confident without "being an asshole"; I know several such people), and it just
comes across as written by an unreliable narrator (if I cared about this
person's issues, I'd likely be asking the people who shunned him about what
happened and see if the stories matched).

~~~
jmcgough
> Sounds like the author has personal problems they're mistakenly ascribing to
> their work.

I struggled socially in my early 20s and avoided dealing with it by drowning
myself in work. Intentionally or not, it sounds like working nonstop meant he
didn't have much time for personal development.

------
scarface74
I am in my 40s and I work with a young married guy in his mid 20s who i would
consider a level 1 software engineer on a scale of 1 to 5. He is a dreamer
thinking he can strike it rich with his great startup idea working on it part
time because he hears stories of all the people who sold their startups and
thinks that's such a glamorous life.

First I told him about survivorship bias and laid out basically the same
statistics as in the article. Then I showed him that he could double his
income in 3-5 years just by learning the craft of software engineering - risk
free -- and still have plenty of time to enjoy his new marriage and enjoy his
hobbies.

If his own company was struggling, he would be up late worrying about it. If
the company he is working for is struggling and he keeps his skills up, he
could easily get another job in our metro area. It's been that way for me for
over 20 years.

I enjoy being a corporate drone, I go to work every day and leave the job at
work -- and I'm a technical lead -- imagine how easy it is if you are "just" a
senior developer? If you are a two income family in a good job market with one
income as the average senior software engineer, you are guaranteed to be well
within the top 10% of earners and be able to live a pretty good life.

~~~
ladytron
Founders don't start companies to live a "pretty good life in the top 10%".

We do it because we are ambitious, want to solve huge technical and business
problems, make our mark, and change the world.

We usually have more energy and sleep less than others. We love work. We love
our business. Most of us would not want to be corporate "drones". It would be
like a living death.

~~~
ben_jones
I fear most entrepreneurs really do care about leaving a mark. Any mark. Ad
tech companies? Big data (selling) companies? Marketing (convince the consumer
to buy something excessive) companies? LinkedIn and other companies that
intentionally force dark patterns on their users? Security companies selling
spyware and hacking tools to anyone who'll pay?

The world could do with fewer of those marks IMO.

~~~
Aeolun
I'm confident most entrepreneurs care about leaving a good mark. It's just
that people that are intent on leaving a bad mark, any mark, generally have an
easier time of it.

~~~
ben_jones
Put someone with the best of intentions in a desperate, stressful, situation
and you'll see a wide variety of outcomes.

------
gydfi
> Material things do not make people happy, at all.

Everybody says this, all the time. I would like to propose the controversial
theory that actually material things _do_ make people happy, at least within
certain constraints.

When I was younger I had shitty cheap material things which made me unhappy.
Now I have better stuff which makes me happier.

I used to have a shitty unairconditioned apartment. That made me unhappy. Now
I have an apartment whose temperature isn't a problem.

I used to have cheap furniture, which was uncomfortable, and that made me
unhappy. Now I have better furniture which is comfortable, I am happier.

I used to have a cheap unreliable car, which broke down and made me unhappy.
Now I have a reliable, comfortable car I have no reason to be unhappy.

If you're a baseline-unhappy person (as I suspect the author is) then material
goods are unlikely to improve your unhappiness. But I'm a baseline fairly
happy person, I don't get unhappy unless there's a specific reason, like
discomfort or inconvenience. Sensible acquisition of material goods can remove
discomfort and inconvenience, thus making you happy.

~~~
alonmower
Most of your examples above point to money == comfort, which I would agree
with. I would argue, though, that the line from comfort to happiness is not as
direct as most people assume

~~~
espeed
Evidently the line between comfort and happiness is $75,000/yr in the US --
below that and it's a struggle, beyond that and it's a burden:

[http://wws.princeton.edu/news-and-
events/news/item/75000-sti...](http://wws.princeton.edu/news-and-
events/news/item/75000-still-valid-mainstream-happiness-benchmark)

------
danilocesar
Ignoring a bit all that I'm-a-successful-Ceo, when most of the "people that
mean the most to you" are saying that you are an asshole, take the advise:
probably you're. Money doesn't necessary play a hole here. My bet is that you
were an asshole before being a milionare. Check with those 'old friends that
understand you'.

------
capkutay
> Listening is an art. Talking over someone because you’re an expert in an
> area and they are not is not okay.

That's a nice observation. Trying to prove you're the smartest person in the
room during a casual social setting has to be one of the most irritating
traits I can think of.

Anecdotal story: I was at a party and commented on a plane flying over us
saying 'isn't it so cool something that big can fly?'. Someone drunkenly
chimed in giving a 5 minute lecture on the physics of plane flight - an
intentionally jargon-filled explanation at that. Everybody in the circle just
walked away and 8 years later I still remember that as one of the most
obnoxious things I've ever witnessed.

~~~
jzl
You would probably enjoy this skit from the brilliant Mitchell and Webb:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=THNPmhBl-8I](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=THNPmhBl-8I)

------
probablyfiction
> And I continually hurt those around me — just by being myself-and it’s
> beyond heartbreaking.

If you're an asshole without money, you're going to be an asshole when you
have money, too. Money doesn't change you; it reveals you.

This is an interesting read, but the author spends way too much time defending
his POV. He expects the people around him to just intuitively know what his
skills are, but that isn't realistic. People can't know what you consider
yourself to be good at unless you tell them.

------
d--b
And now he can write another one, about how much crap he got from people when
he took his story to medium.

------
jostylr
I find the author's notion of being a leader to be a bit disturbing. A leader
is someone whose authority is granted to them by those they are leading. A
great leader is someone who may not even be thought of as a leader, but
nevertheless directs and coordinates the actions and willing to take the flak
for the team.

The idea of a leader taking control of a 4 member band without consent is
laughable. That is a dictator, not a leader.

It strikes me as interesting that I do not see this called out more in the
comments.

------
econner
Is it possible that his experience is not representative?

Edit: Digging a bit further, it looks like the startup that he sold was Valet
Gourmet which was a food delivery business in North Carolina and he worked on
it for ~12 years. That's probably a bit longer than the tech startup timelines
we tend to think of here.

~~~
tluyben2
>That's probably a bit longer than the tech startup timelines we tend to think
of here.

That is something I learnt from my startups, running and selling them; things
will take far longer and people quit way too soon. If you start a business,
any business, thinking you will make fuck you money in 15 years is much more
relaxed and better chances of success in my experience. Plenty of side
projects I made over 10 years ago are still popular running on crappy tech and
companies I co founded 20 years ago still exist and make profits. People think
a lot changes but it doesn't; it changes on HN and Reddit but not the rest of
the world even though the big changes like mobile happened; with a sprinkle of
responsive over ancient html/css suddenly people use it again like it just
launched.

Edit; in no way I want to imply to live on ramen for 15 years; live a good
life all that time, but, at least in your mind, think the riches/exit will
happen in a long time from now. It makes it all less bank or bust stress.

------
aorloff
This is what happens when a string player makes it.

You want to see some folks having fun or making music after an exit, talk to
the horns or rhythm section.

~~~
yakshaving_jgt
I don't understand this metaphor but I like it anyway.

------
MrJagil
I run a small record label, which i consider my startup despite not earning
any money. Some notes:

Truth #3 — the skills that make you a good leader DO NOT transfer to social
settings

For me it's the opposite. Learning how to network and interact _honestly_ and
with genuine care has completely reshaped my personality. I have such an easy
time making friends these days and can, in a given, uncomfortable social
interaction, easily distinguish between people being obnoxious and me being
the one at fault (stepping over boundaries, being unreasonable, being
superficial in my interaction). Ascribing "blame" properly saves you so much
self-loathing and miscommunication. I have much greater control of my social
life.

Truth #4 — the same charismatic attitude that makes you a good leader also
makes you an asshole

Yes, and such is life. People will inevitably misunderstand you if they spend
enough time focusing on you. There is an inherent imbalance in your
relationship. My solution is to apologise when it comes up, and just _always
always_ greet people with respect (i hug) and leave them with respect (it was
nice seeing you). Continual courtesy will override occasional mishaps, even
the bad, drunken ones. Be honest about not being perfect, and show that you're
trying.

Truth #5 — life post-exit is not all happy times

Very true. You really do need external confirmation in your life.

------
ak39
Ok. All good. So what do we do now? Allow me to humbly suggest these:

1\. Help folks struggling to pay rent for a short while. Give them breathing
room to get their lives on even keel. You have superhuman powers now. Use it.
They'll be thankful. But don't expect anything back in return.

2\. Start a soup kitchen in your local neighbourhood and get to know the
folks. Each one of us is a Dostoyevski protagonist, swashbuckling hero waging
war against our own crazy demons and wild fancy windmills. Ambition and its
bitter outcomes are in all of us - not just "entrepreneurs".

3\. "Soft adopt" a nephew/niece who is on the verge of falling into the deadly
post teenage trap of feeling helpless, hopeless and depressed about their
future. Some ideas: sponsor coding camps/programming classes, fund their
college education or their sports interests. Encourage, encourage encourage.
(Start with the worst off in the family. I am planning to adopt our 23-yo
soon-to-be-full-drug-addict nephew unless someone intervenes. He's grown more
despondent and depressed after dropping out of college. His troubled childhood
and misery of coping with a broken family - parents are now effectively
divorced has turned him into a lone outcast. I still remember holding him as a
rugrat. I still believe we can cultivate a future he can be proud of.)

4\. Lastly, simple thing: when folks invite you over for dinner or barbecues
always insist on making the salad or dessert. Make it, don't buy it.

I think in the end you have to decide how you feel about compassion. There are
some folks who have an absolute and resolute belief that compassion is a
weakness of character. I personally believe compassion makes every one of us
Superman.

------
danschumann
Gee, he doesn't come off as a hard heart, talking over people, 100% too
confident, know-it-all, or do-as-I-say-- until you actually start reading the
article. Expert on what not to do I guess, but I can't follow.

------
st3v3r
This kind of thing is why anyone who says the answer to all unemployment is
"make a startup" shouldn't be taken seriously. Hell, the first thing they say
is that they basically cut everyone but a couple people out of their life.
Most people are not prepared to do that, and quite frankly, they shouldn't in
order to put food on the table.

------
epx
Sounded like those humor shows where the Rich Cousin said to the poor cousin
he had soooooo many problems in his life, like having to buy all Christmas
dinner ingredients from France ...

------
NumberCruncher
It may be off topic, but this article remembers me of something I read in the
The Art of Being Right by Arthur Schopenhauer. He sais that being rigth (in
German: Recht haben) and being proven right (in German: Recht behalten) are
two different things. Even if you are rigth you can be proven wrong in a
debate if you don't know how to be proven right and you can't represent your
standpoint. On the other side if you know how to be proven right you don't
have to be right all the time.

The OP seems to learned how to be proven right. This may even be a driver of
his success. Unfortunately the most of us do not like to be proven wrong all
the time and feel offended by people like the OP. Looking at the comments this
seems to be true also for the HN folks.

------
hoodoof
I think if I got rich then I'd think very carefully about whether or not I
wanted anyone else to know.

~~~
battlebot
Yeah, well, here's the thing about that: If you don't explain your lifestyle
to some people most just assume you're a broke bum, which is very annoying
after awhile. I'm actually going to find some job to do because I can't stand
sitting at home and I don't have quite enough money to be fully retired at 43
but it's like --->.<\--- that close.

------
espeed
Brutal truth -- sounds like arrogance.

------
erl
"... but I’m not cut out to be a stay at home parent"

As with leadership skills, I think that enjoying to be a stay at home parent
also must be learnt. It might seem hard, or boring, or tedious to some. But I
am convinced basically anyone can make an enjoyable experience of it if they
actually make an effort. It will not come automatically, it will take some
time and effort.

------
CodeWriter23
Yep, narcissism is a bitch. Especially when it perpetuates denial that the
common factor in one's issues is oneself.

------
bigtunacan
The whole article comes across as very defensive... here's all these examples
of people seeing me as an asshole, but really I'm a nice guy. I try to relate,
but it's not my fault I don't understand all of these people that are beneath
me while I'm kicking it in my crib with my stone counter tops and $300 jeans.
Oh I really love my wife and kid, but... I'm just so unfulfilled.

Brutal truth to the author after having read the article is that he probably
does qualify as being an asshole.

As a slight counterpoint to that though, despite what everyone says it is okay
to be an asshole up to a certain point. It is better to just own up to it
though than to deny it. This is advice from a self admitted asshole.

~~~
mehwoot
Yes, he probably is an asshole. But at least he's self reflecting and
attempting to modify his behaviour. That's a good first step.

 _And I continually hurt those around me — just by being myself-and it’s
beyond heartbreaking. Somewhere along the way, money truly changed me for the
worst._

Most assholes don't have that level of reflection so I'm not going to be too
harsh

~~~
bigtunacan
"Most assholes don't have that level of reflection"

Don't be so sure about that. I'm most certainly an asshole and I am extremely
self aware. These two things are not mutually exclusive. Many of my closest
friends are also assholes and they damn sure know it. Quite frankly that is in
part why we are friends.

I agree the author is reflecting however most of his reflection is denial. If
he wants to get anywhere then he needs to accept that he is an asshole. Only
then can he either decide he wants to change or decide that he is ok with it.

------
return0
He does point out his 'problem' multiple times: too much aggressiveness in
channels that are not made for that. This is not limited to millionaires
though, you will find many driven people struggling to understand how people
with lower drive can 'live like that'. I think some people are cut out to be
in a specific role, entrepreneurship, position of power etc, and they feel
miserable elsewhere.

As for the money problem, you can avoid most of the problems by not mentioning
your wealth to everyone and certainly by not showing it. Keep that for the
closest of your bros, no further.

------
paulsutter
The brutally honest truth about this guy is that he's an insecure prick who
loves boasting

> Only 0.4% of all businesses make it to $10M in annual revenue. We made it
> almost halfway through...When I sold my startup, we had 100 people working
> with us.

> Unfortunately, I no longer have very many friends...

> ...Tesla...$300 pairs of jeans, $450 pairs of boots, concrete
> countertops...trips to New Zealand no longer bother me. That’s great and
> all, however ...you come across as a tone deaf asshole.

~~~
nstart
Just want to point out that you could be a bit more sensitive. You've
recognized the author's insecurities. Pointing them out in this thread in this
manner is something that one should consider whether it would do more harm
than good. On the other side of the screen might be the author who is reading
your comment and a bunch of other comments calling him out on his insecurities
and then piling on.

You do not want to be the one comment that was responsible for a man suddenly
folding in on himself and thinking "oh god I really am worthless. Why even be
around?".

I grew up in an environment that made me feel insecure and then piled up on my
insecurities. I know what it's like to run into a seemingly unrelated event
that just makes you wander up to the rooftop of a building and consider
throwing yourself off because you feel like a piece of trash that's always
been as bad as you thought you were.

Please please please. I implore you and everyone else on this thread to
consider words like this really really carefully. On the other side of that
screen is a human. Flawed. Maybe deeply damaged. But human nonetheless. Let's
take care of each other :).

Peace!

~~~
paulsutter
The original title of the submission was "the brutally honest truth about
selling your company", and I went with the brutally honest theme.

To be honest I'm surprised it got 46 upvotes.

------
jondubois
I have the same problems as the author but I also have to worry about money
because none of the risks I took have paid off.

The only thing I look forward to is the next economic crisis; then maybe I'll
be able to build something out of the rubble of other people's failures.

Economic stability is painful for me.

------
oregontechninja
This just feels like another click-bait article, from title to purely opinion
based article.

------
blueyes
I can't tell if this guy is a jerk or just pretending to be a jerk. But the
tone is pitch perfect. Even the title is pure jerky clickbait. Here's a dude
who talks about _visioning_ as his main skill, is surprised when small groups
of people don't want him to micromanage them, and falls deeper into solitude
when he cannot discuss the problems of $400 boots with normal people. My heart
bleeds. He should be transmuted into a parody for the HBO show. The really
weird, deeper issue is that even when a totally un-self-aware human being like
the author, or like the author is pretending to be, realizes they are totally
un-self-aware, they still talk about it in an un-self-aware way where the
reader is like STFU who cares... Lord protect us from what we want, and from
who we are.

~~~
espeed
It's called "covert narcissism". Whereas overt narcissists openly admit it and
are proud of it -- to the point where the most effective method of determining
if someone is an overt narcissist is to ask them directly, "are you a
narcissist?" [1] -- a covert narcissist is in outward denial -- it's the
humble brag, deflecting, blaming, playing the victim. Both are a form of
mental blindness that prevent you seeing things as they truly are -- as are
fear and __envy__ [2]. The first paragraph is telling (it's all there):

 _The low-confidence cynic in me wants to tell you that a seven figure exit
isn’t really that much. I have friends who have had eight figure exits, and
I’m met multiple people who have had 10 figure exits. This is my experience as
a guy who started a business with $10k in personal credit card debt and $200
in the bank, and accidentally ended up a millionaire._

Envy is a sneaky devil, buried deep inside -- hard to see in yourself, hard to
identify (maybe even moreso when you have money) -- but it's often at the root
of anxiety and low self-esteem. And when envy and pride play tug-of-war, they
wreak havoc. Snapping out of it requires humility -- true self-reflection,
deep introspection -- and the courage to acknowledge and take responsibility
for your actions. Perspective is key, but it's the thing they lack.

[1]
[https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2014/08/140805150645.h...](https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2014/08/140805150645.htm)

[2] [https://outre-monde.com/2014/08/21/the-psychology-and-
philos...](https://outre-monde.com/2014/08/21/the-psychology-and-philosophy-
of-envy/)

------
sverige
The part about leadership skills creating problems socially is spot on.
Apparently I am a natural leader when in groups. (There is a natural "alpha"
component to this skill; it's not all learned, but rather built upon at least
some innate personality traits.) I acquired additional skills during years
spent in management. This sometimes causes friction with others outside of
work, and can be especially acute with family and close friends.

Occasional friction at work is expected, but when you are the leader by title,
persuasion, expertise, and (best) because of "referent power," there are lots
of ways to resolve conflicts over direction while preserving relationships.
These methods often fail in relationships where the power structures are
entirely different and have different bases. When you spend most of your time
in one environment, it can be difficult to recognize that your skills don't
translate to the other (social) environment.

In other words, if people sometimes think you're an asshole at work, the
benefits of continuing the relationship often more easily outweigh the costs.
The reverse is true in close personal relationships, where you're just an
asshole. Then you either learn the different rules and accept that leadership
is often much more subtle and soft, or you end up without friends and family.

And yes, money can change you for the worse, especially if you did not grow up
with it. I have friends whom I discovered years later are third generation
wealthy (9 figures) but basically live an upper middle class existence, minus
the financial stress. I have other friends who were raised middle class and
made a ton of money. They tend to be those complaining about people asking how
much they've made.

It's the difference between living like Hyman Roth in the Godfather Part II,
or living like Tony Montana in Scarface. If people are asking that, you're
flashing too much. Either stop pimping your lifestyle, or stop worrying that
people treat you like a pimp. Better yet, find a different class of people who
also have money and won't ask. But the old money will still call you "noveau
riche" for the remainder of your life.

------
samnwa
Sorry this guy is an a-hole, I guess?

------
known
with great power/money comes great responsibility
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncle_Ben](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncle_Ben)

------
Indolat
> When you roll up to someone’s house in a Tesla, how can they help but assume
> that you’re just a judgmental asshole?

Am I the only one who feels that those guys were judgmental assholes rather
than the author?

~~~
joemi
Based solely on that sentence, no, you're not the the only one. But based on
the entire piece, I don't think he paints a very good picture of himself.

~~~
Indolat
He didn't write about doing something really bad, did he?

------
nanis
So, you're such a good leader and all and you hire to your weaknesses, but you
could not figure out you needed to have someone proofread your post. Got it.

------
ithought
All these things he listed (losing touch with friends, ruining business
opportunities, treating people poorly, appearing 'higher class') happen to
almost everyone at some point in life but without being rich.

~~~
feistypharit
Ya, it seems his real issue is he spent his 20s and 30s with the goal of
getting money and now that he has it winners what's next. I believe the term
is midlife crisis.

I do find it sad that he,like so many other people just write off how hard and
important it is to raise kids. "I'm not a stay at home parent". I've heard it
from doctors, CEOs, and others. As a society we really need to stop
outsourcing the raising of our children.

~~~
espeed
_I believe the term is midlife crisis._

Yes, identity crisis. If your identity for the last 10 years has been too tied
to your role at work, it can leave you in a state of crisis (identity
diffusion) when it's gone [1]. In a founder's mind, your identity/self-image
can become almost indistinguishable from your company, unless it was solid to
begin with. And when your identity has been bound too tightly to an external
thing -- and the external thing is gone -- it uncorks a big gaping void of
unresolved issues that's been masked all those years. You've likely been
acting in accordance with your projected identity -- your persona, your
artificial/false-self, your source of pride -- and now that it's gone, your
underdeveloped ego (your true self) is left in a state of crisis, caught in a
whirlwind between your base impulses (your id) and who you think you should be
(your super-ego) [2]. When you recognize what's going on inside and reconcile
the two, the turmoil will subside and your reasoned, authentic self will
emerge.

[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Identity_crisis](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Identity_crisis)

[2] [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Id,_ego_and_super-
ego](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Id,_ego_and_super-ego)

~~~
espeed
Moreover, PG touched on this idea in his essay, "Keep Your Identity Small"
(2009):

[http://paulgraham.com/identity.html](http://paulgraham.com/identity.html)

------
thasaleni
"when you roll at someone's house in a Tesla"

HAHAHAHAHA! I laughed at this

------
hoodoof
It seems to me that money isn't the issue here.

The issue is that this guy is a jerk, that's all.

Sounds like he has taken becoming rich as a license to set his inner jerk
free.

~~~
clavalle
Yup. I've seen really nice people become incredibly wealthy and stay
incredibly (maybe a little too) kind and I've seen petty people get a little
more cash than their neighbors and become intolerable condescending assholes.

It's about the person, not the money.

------
thehardsphere
>The friends that I’ve maintained all along (and many of them are former
employees) understand me.

The equation of "employees" with "friends" here is a red flag for narcissism.
It's possible to have friendly relationships with employees but that
relationship is still primarily about exchanging services for compensation. As
a result, the employees will put up with a lot more nonsense than any person
whose livelihood is not directly dependent on keeping their boss happy.

------
michalu
His problems have nothing to do with the money... not sure why he correlates
that. Sounds like he simply sucks at interpersonal skills ...

E.g. "I feel like my opinion doesn't matter around him because I haven't made
$1 mil" we'll if that's how you make people feel it's your fault... if they're
simply insecure whiners it's your fault for keeping them in your life...

Same thing with friends...

Another area to improve would be a sense of style (no person with style buys
$300 jeans, they're basically a product targeted at insecure nouveau riche...
just shop at H&M)

... I guess the only reason this article is popular is that it comforts people
who haven't made a million dollars that his life sucks too regardless...

~~~
tetrazine
> no person with style buys $300 jeans, they're basically a product targeted
> at insecure nouveau riche... just shop at H&M)

Hi, I understand what you are trying to say here, but please consider
investigating the world of apparel a little more deeply before making comments
like this. H&M and similar fast-fashion companies are deeply involved in
practices like blatant, continued design piracy from both famous and small,
independent designers; as well as unsafe and exploitative labour practices,
including in third-world countries. In addition, the clothes these stores
produce are not very high quality and tend to degrade quickly, making them
only useful for staying up-to-date with trends pioneered by the designers fast
fashion brands mimic.

Ethically designed and manufactured clothing that is of good value (ie lasts
long) costs money to produce. $300 for a pair of jeans is very high, yes, but
H&M is not the alternative I would recommend. I would also say that many
people "with style" can easily and in fact viscerally tell the difference
between a pair of H&M jeans and a higher-quality pair, and would not balk at
paying that price for a piece of clothing, especially for a wardrobe staple
like jeans. It is not a "nouveau riche" affectation as much as an appreciation
for artistic vision, design, and craftsmanship. Of course personal income is a
factor here and I'm not suggesting everyone should be paying that much for all
the clothing they own.

If you're interested in learning more about these topics, I recommend reading
publications like WWD, The Business of Fashion, or The Fashion Law (though I
am not vouching for their reporting and editorial stances in all cases).
Consumer awareness of the nature of fast fashion is the only way I see for the
fashion industry to move forward from these issues.

~~~
michalu
>the clothes these stores produce are not very high quality and tend to
degrade quickly...

when it comes to fashion, you're not meant to keep it for years...

A person with style wouldn't bother buying expensive jeans... you just need
high-quality shoes and accessories the rest can be a plain t-shirt and H&M
jeans... not sure where you're from and where you get your impressions... I'd
say one thing about the fashion magazines, they basically do the work for
their advertisers...

the consumer awareness... yeah good point but not really relevant in the
context of the above story...

------
jonmc12
Buckminster Fuller, considering ego-suicide: "I see the hydrogen atom doesn't
have to earn a living before behaving like a hydrogen atom. In fact, as best I
can see, only human beings operate on the basis of 'having to earn a living'.
The concept is one introduced into social conventions, only by the temporal
power structure's dictum of the ages. If I am doing what God's evolutionary
strategy needs to have accomplished, I need spend no further time worrying
about such matters."

~~~
AznHisoka
isnt our evolutionary destiny just to reproduce as much as possible?

~~~
xyzzy4
Or maybe it's to produce as much CO2 as possible.

~~~
thehardsphere
The correct answer is maximize the entropy of the universe, so both of those
options work.

------
madengr
Oh please. Enough with the changing the world BS.

~~~
dang
You can't be uncivil like this on Hacker News regardless of how much you
disagree with someone. Please don't do it again.

We detached this comment from
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13665623](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13665623)
and marked it off-topic.

------
juskrey
Let's be brutally honest - most of the successful businesses are about selling
harmful (mostly in the long run - people should be myopic, not entirely dumb)
bullshit.

And you have to possess certain qualities to succeed in that, which BTW work
the best when you are not seeing part 1 as something bad at all.

This WILL make your social life a kind of hell - and you deserve it. People
are not dumb customers, though not always able to articulate that (ie from
shame, halo effect etc)

------
tardo99
Buying a Tesla is embarrassing. My net worth is definitely higher than this
dude's, and I don't have a Tesla.

~~~
nommm-nommm
Embarrassing how? Embarrassing to who?

------
HiroshiSan
Geeze...as I finished reading this essay I thought to myself "wow that was
great, I'm glad he could share that...I wonder what the comments have to add"
and the answer is...absolutely nothing. You're all a bitter bunch.

~~~
dang
Maybe look again? The comments in this thread are mixed. Some are dismissive
or defensive in their own right but others (quite a few actually) have
thoughtful responses and several people have posted their own
similar/contrasting experiences.

~~~
battlebot
Well the whole article came off as a humble brag, so there's that.

He should just start collecting Porsches or flying airplanes or something.
Jeez.

~~~
dang
Can't say I agree. I think the commenters taking that tack are maybe adding a
filter or two of their own to what the author is saying and being reactive to
the less interesting parts of the article. That leads to a somewhat boring, if
also exciting, round-of-denunciation sort of thread. (Boring-plus-exciting is
the alcohol-plus-amphetamines of internet forums.)

They're also ignoring the ways the author is already piling on himself. I
think that's a shallow reading and a bit harsh. The common trope in our
culture is for the rest of us to become hostile when someone with money goes
on about their problems ('what's he got to complain about?'). I get why, but
it's an oversimplifying reflex that doesn't breed good discussion. Human lives
are complex things.

IMO the more interesting parts of the article have to do with tradeoffs and
unintended consequences. Doing what it takes to achieve a goal, including a
socially laudable/enviable goal, can leave you stuck and/or damaged in other
ways. These dynamics are more interesting than just seeing someone as 'an
asshole'.

~~~
HiroshiSan
This is in no way related to this comment but I just wanted to say keep up the
good work. I read Paul Graham's summary of you and my comment came across as
mean and stupid. Anyway to say the least, moderating comments can't be easy
and you take every one of them seriously. Thank you.

~~~
dang
Thanks! Your comment didn't seem mean or stupid because you were defending
something positive. But it's great for the community, and one of my favorite
things on HN, when someone takes a second look and a more nuanced response
arises. So your responses here (both of them) are a gift.

------
skookumchuck
> But the rest of the world doesn’t give a fuck about you or your experience.

That's true whether or not your are successful.

In any case, the only people who are genuinely happy about your success are
your parents.

------
edblarney
"I looked at her “like a little girl” when we were having a conversation."

Almost all of the examples of 'having a hard time around other people' amount
to _their self perceptions_ not necessarily the authors actions.

It's impossible to 'look at someone like a little girl'. It's mostly likely
that these people either feel insecure, or, they project certain qualities
upon the author.

I have a very 'straight face' and because of lack of emotional response,
people have asked 'why am I angry at them?' when I had not even a whiff of
such emotion. I was literally deeply contemplating what they were saying!

Now - it there may be other tons of behavioural signals - and it's possible
the author was _treating someone as a little girl_ , i.e. not paying
attention, being dismissive, condescending without knowing it - which would
then give a different characteristic to that persons opinion.

And it's easy for someone to create feelings when a successful person 'pulls
up in a Tesla'. Any hint at bragging/humble-bragging in any way might be taken
the wrong way.

But it's a good article, at least it's good to have some self-reflection/self-
awareness.

~~~
hkmurakami
>I have a very 'straight face' and because of lack of emotional response,
people have asked 'why am I angry at them?' when I had not even a whiff of
such emotion. I was literally deeply contemplating what they were saying!

Well I'm glad to know that I'm not the only one with this problem.

~~~
CharlesW
Friend, many of us carry this burden. Here's the technical term:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resting_bitch_face](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resting_bitch_face)

