
San Francisco school board votes to destroy murals by Victor Arnautoff - seapunk
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/06/28/opinion/sunday/san-francisco-life-of-washington-murals.html
======
mc32
Are they also going to go through all kinds of expressions of art and looking
for unacceptable views in their libraries?

Movie catalogues, books and destroy them too? We used to make fun of
authoritarian regimes and how they were week for trying to stamp out art and
thought they didn’t like, but it’s like we’ve become them.

I’m a bit surprised they haven’t revived Gore’s PMRC to ensure music lyrics
represent correct orthodoxy.

I mean, I can understand renaming streets. Streets are renamed for various
reasons, and some commemorate dubious people, but the street remains. I
wonder...

...Will one day all the Mission cities get renamed because they were named by
Evangelizing Spanish Missionaries. Is that where we’re headed? We can name
them after tribes or chiefs, perhaps. I propose Ohlone for San Francisco.

~~~
throw20102010
This is basically the same argument that southern right-wingers use to defend
keeping their confederate statues, but oddly enough many internet commenters
seem to have no problems with ripping down those pieces of art since they
represented something they didn't like.

I'm not accusing you (mc32) of being hypocritical since I haven't seen you
make any comments saying that we should rip out old confederate statues
because they represent slavery.

However, (let me reiterate that this isn't an attack on you, mc32), I think we
as a collective internet need to rethink how we feel about removing artwork if
it represents something bad. It is not okay for us to be okay with ripping out
some untasteful art but not others, simply because some bad art is "left" and
other bad art is "right."

Before you go jumping on me about how slavery is different than communism,
remember that communism is responsible for nearly a hundred million deaths,
which puts it near the level of slavery in terms of harm it has done to
humanity (even if they aren't directly comparable).

~~~
BeeOnRope
I mean there is the _slight_ difference that the statues intend to glorify the
figures they represent, while this mural does the opposite - it's a pointed
commentary on slavery and colonialism.

~~~
rjf72
Statues are inanimate. What glorification happens is by people. When you see a
statue of something or someone you find distasteful, do you find yourself
glorifying whatever it represents or does the statue instead simply serve as a
reminder to you of the past for which you make your own judgements? Do statues
impose meaning, or do people find their own meaning in them? Of course the
answer is self evident.

One reason that purging of the past is so intrinsically tied to authoritarian
regimes is because authoritarian regimes do not want people to think for
themselves. They want to enforce their views and only their views with no
possible ambiguity or counterpoint. This is the danger of flirting with
authoritarianism, as I feel we have been doing in trying to purge the past.
Once the momentum for 'cultural purification' grows, you may find that where
you draw your personal line in the sand is not where the rest of those
pursuing such ends choose to.

------
mrosett
The group supporting its removal alleges that it “glorifies slavery.” If you
read the description of the painting, that’s just false and makes me skeptical
of the quality of the minds involved.

This would be appalling even if it were free to remove the mural. With all the
literal and figurative shit San Francisco has to deal with, it’s borderline
criminal to waste more than half a million dollars.

~~~
BeeOnRope
Another question is how painting 1,600 sq ft which is maybe half the area of
the walls in a small house, costs $600,000. I'll gladly do it for a cool half
million, and you can use the $100,000 saved to remove any other awkward signs
of the past that might pop up in the future.

~~~
bilbo0s
Sometimes people get so caught up in defending whatever side of some political
argument that pragmatic matters such as price go right out the window. They
stop thinking practically. The only thing that matters becomes their ideology
or what have you.

I, personally, have the exact same questions as you. Come on, 600 G's?

I'll fly out and paint it for half that if you guys really want it done.

~~~
sslayer
I would like to believe that the steep cost is due not to destruction, but
actual removal and preservation of the murals. To destroy these pieces of art
is an outright atrocity.

~~~
Dangeranger
Unfortunately, it seems that removal and preservation are not the intent here,
the aim is to destroy the art so that it cannot be recovered in the future.

------
ankalagon
Explaining the meaning and history of this mural would be bettern. Couldn't
they add a sign with a text and QR code with some encyclopedical knowledge
about each "controversial" landmark? Something like this [1].

I think is the same with the Columbus statue removal there[2]. Art is a
product of its time and if the times were racist/violent/whatever, the art
will be so also. Indeed it would be a good way to learn History.

[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Indiana_state_historic...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Indiana_state_historical_markers#/media/File:Michigan_Road_historical_marker_near_Zionsville.jpg)

[2] [https://remezcla.com/lists/culture/columbus-grand-park-
statu...](https://remezcla.com/lists/culture/columbus-grand-park-statue-
removed/)

------
arkades
An expression I came across recently in one of my circles was “free speech
extremist.”

As in, if you think free speech trumps censoring all possible offensive
communication, you are a free speech extremist.

Man, I remember the days when being PC was basically “don’t be a d __*”, and
censorship was the Right’s shtick.

~~~
lettergram
IMO the left has been more extreme regarding removal of liberties for the past
decade or so. Not saying the right isn’t trying to do that (see abortion),
it’s just the left is much broader and those who are liberal seem to generally
be blind to it or think the trades off are worth it (although it’s not really
their call, that’s why it’s in the bill of rights).

That’s why so many people supported (and still support) Trump. Removal of the
second amendment (guns), fourth amendment (FISA court), first amendment (all
the political correctness), etc. The “right” feels persecuted and IMO justly
so.

Personally, I fall on the libertarian side so I think both are pretty poor for
liberty. But I have watched this scary shift and it kinda mimics the decent
into Nazisim... “share my ideals or else we will erase you”.

~~~
lotsofpulp
When has first amendment been threatened? And if anything, the "right" or
whatever Trump is all about FISA courts and pro military/police establishment.
I know that abortion rights, right to assisted suicide, drug rights,
separation of church and state are all threatened by the "right" also.

~~~
weberc2
“Free speech” isn’t just an amendment, but also an attitude or an ideal.

------
zmix
This is scandalous! And very depressing. One would think, that these topics
have been understood in the meanwhile, especially in a community like San
Francisco, which once was the stronghold of the 68ers.

A society, that can't criticize itself is a weak society.

------
donatj
This recent acceptance of art destruction disturbs me. The Minneapolis
sculpture garden literally _burned_ Sam Durant’s sculpture Scaffold after
complaints.

~~~
Retric
Unwanted art ends up in the trash. We venerated old art in large part because
of this process. If every child’d Doodle from 1000 BCE was still around few
people would look at them or care.

~~~
wpietri
It's a great point. And the reason we have a lot of pro-slavery art is that
the anti-slavery art was destroyed, or never allowed to be created in the
first place. I've recently been reading _The Fiery Trial_ , a biography of
Lincoln's ideas, and mobs would happily assault and sometimes kill white
abolitionists just for speaking about the notion. And Kendi's _Stamped From
The Beginning_ makes clear how eager the greater portion of American whites
were to keep black people from having opinions at all.

Art has pretty much always been subjected to a pretty ruthless collaborative
editing process. In San Francisco's alleys, art is continually being put up
and painted over. The good pieces last longer than the random squiggles, but
very few reach the level where somebody like Precita Eyes [1] will preserve it
past its natural lifespan. For something to survive across generations, it has
to fit the standards of multiple generations, and that's how it always has
been.

Predictably, Bari Weiss isn't upset about that ongoing loss of San Francisco
art. Gosh golly, why is losing this specific set of unexceptional murals
important to her?

[1] [http://www.precitaeyes.org/](http://www.precitaeyes.org/)

~~~
povertyworld
Since you like to read books, try this one:

[https://www.press.uillinois.edu/books/catalog/95xxn2fm978025...](https://www.press.uillinois.edu/books/catalog/95xxn2fm9780252040788.html)

------
Hoasi
Aside from the ridiculous price tag, it would set a dangerous precedent. It's
not so much about the value of the art itself, which is debatable, but rather
how appropriate removing a historical testimony is.

Just because an interpretation no longer fits with today's view doesn't mean
people should forget the history behind it nor the mentality surrounding it at
a particular time. Erasing remnants of a past you disagree with doesn't erase
the facts, but it makes people less inclined to remember or learn about a not
so glorious history.

It raises questions about the exact motives at stake here.

------
emiliobumachar
Cue the British Museum to the rescue.

If I recall correctly, back in the 90's, when the Taliban decided to destroy
those giant Buddhas, the BM pleaded to be allowed to dismantle them and take
them to Britain instead, at its own expense. The Taliban refused.

This art doesn't seem nearly as important, but, I wonder if they could do the
same in this case. The PR alone may be worth it. This sort of thing is the
best conterargument they can possibly have against contestation of their
legitimacy to hold foreign art.

~~~
masonic
Meanwhile, they continue to refuse to return the Elgin Marbles.

------
gok
I think a lot of people here seem to be missing the staggering part of this:
the mural is overtly, pointedly anti-slavery, anti-colonialism, anti-George
Washington, but it's being destroyed because the school board is claiming it's
the opposite.

~~~
ndarwincorn
And on top of that they have the gall to call it 'reparations'.

Truly Orwellian.

------
pessimizer
This has nothing to do with unacceptable views and everything to do with
middle-class people wanting to cover up anything unpleasant.

It's unpleasant to teach your children that the US forefathers were people to
be admired when they have seen him with his slaves walking over dead Indians
every day.

~~~
emilfihlman
Absolutely untrue. The uncomfortability ship as an excuse has long since
sailed. This is 100% about either fearing about any claim of racism or
actually believing that it's better to destroy art because it shows something
that doesn't fit the narrative.

It's' about making history criminal.

~~~
drngdds
>it shows something that doesn't fit the narrative.

???

The (correct) narrative promoted by the left is that the US was founded by
terrible slave-owning racists, and this art promotes that viewpoint.

Also, no one is making anything illegal here.

------
rdtsc
> unanimous decision on Tuesday night to spend at least $600,000 of taxpayer
> money not just to shroud a historic work of art but to destroy it.

I wonder what they can do for the homeless population with that money. With
the numbers they have, probably not much, but it's also not nothing either.

> For impressionable young people who attend school to have any representation
> that diminishes people, specifically students from communities that have
> already been diminished, it’s an aggressive thing. It’s hurtful and I don’t
> think our students need to bear that burden.”

Thinking back at being an impressionable young person, seeing homeless people
on the streets, in pain, yelling at passers by, or defecating in the streets
would have been a lot more "hurtful" than seeing a mural.

There is nothing wrong to worry about the message a mural sends, but it
signals that they've solved all the other problems, and now, with nothing else
left to do, to keep busy, they are taking care of repainting murals. It just
doesn't make them look very competent.

------
TeMPOraL
It's a friggin _high school_. For people aged 14-18. They can not only deal
with such content, they can actually learn from it.

(Isn't high-school curriculum full of literature that could be more disturbing
anyway?)

It all sounds like a stupid exercise in virtue signalling at the cost of $600k
to taxpayers + loss of a historical artifact + setting a dangerous precedent.

------
fredley
I get that times change and what may once have been an acceptable work of
public art may be less palatable. Certainly a mural showing the conquest of
native Americans is perhaps not suited to a public space. However destroying
it is totally bone headed. Move it to a gallery or museum so future
generations can see the journey that's been taken.

~~~
CydeWeys
Unfortunately it can be uniquely hard to move murals.

God knows why it costs $600k to destroy one though; this job should actually
cost $100 or less, paint and labor all-in.

~~~
darkpuma
I wonder who the bulk of that $600k will go to (certainly not the laborers!)
and what their relationship is to the people who decided to spend that much.

~~~
krick
Obviously, whomever made the proposal.

------
krick
Seriously, though, this pisses me off much more than 600k and appalling
1984-ishness of the act:

> And yet many of the school’s actual students seemed to disagree. Of 49
> freshmen asked to write about the murals, according to The Times, only four
> supported their removal.

I mean, these are the only people who's opinion on the school exterior should
actually count.

------
fdye
So here is an idea, why don't they ask the SFMOMA experts if there is any way
to remove the entire wall and donate it to their collection? I have seen
Banksy pieces where they cutout the entire external wall an office building
and displayed it in an art gallery for sale (granted not this large). Seems
like a win win, the school district gets the mural down and a new wall to
paint however they like. SF MOMA gets a critical piece in their collection and
I'm sure all the controversy will spike its total worth. Granted cost would
probably be substantially more, but perhaps the SF MOMA can help with that
since they have a large endowment and would be receiving the piece.

~~~
LocalH
It appears that the explicit desire is to _destroy_ the work. I think they
will resist any efforts that don't result in the work's complete destruction.

------
mnm1
> One of the commissioners, Faauuga Moliga, said before the vote on Tuesday
> that his chief concern was that “kids are mentally and emotionally feeling
> safe at their schools.”

And there I was, a naive idiot who thinks that schools are about learning. I
guess we have given up that concept completely now as a nation and embrace
schools simply as glorified babysitters. It sure shows in our nation's
stupidity and hate of anything intellectual. And we still have ambitions to
colonize the moon or even Mars while most of our citizens can barely afford
food and shelter and the country is quickly turning from developed to
developing. Of course we are a nation of dumbasses if the people teaching our
kids are this dumb and anti-intellectual. Let's arm these idiots while we're
at it so we can get a glimpse of the amazing future America has with this kind
of "education."

------
ravenstine
> The notion of erasing art has an American pedigree.

Was this a poor choice of words from a hastily written article, or does the
author think that erasing art is uniquely American? Changing history,
destroying art, etc., have existed since time immemorial. Anyone who honestly
thinks that America invented evil is delusional.

------
rayiner
I’m going to go against the grain and argue that some erasure of history is a
good thing. If we want people to integrate into one polity, it may well be
better to focus on disparities that exist in the present instead of dwelling
on what happened in the past. The British are the product of invasion and
brutal repression of the Anglo Saxons by the Normans. But you don’t really see
public art dedicated to that.

~~~
icebraining
But do you see public art glorifying the Normans? Because as far as I know,
art glorifying George Washington is common. Shouldn't that be erased too?

~~~
darkpuma
> _" But do you see public art glorifying the Normans?"_

Of course, why shouldn't there be?

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statue_of_William_the_Conquero...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statue_of_William_the_Conqueror)

~~~
emiliobumachar
I don't think that's a fair example because it's in France, not Britain.

~~~
darkpuma
Of course it's in France; the _Norman_ invasion was some lads from _Normandy_.
William was born and died in Normandy.

Perhaps the French could gift a statue of William to the UK; they could put it
next to the statue of George Washington in Trafalgar Square.

 _Edit:_ The French are not known for their tactlessness. In truth, William
the Conqueror is simply not offensive to the modern British people. William is
even more distant to the modern British than George Washington, and you don't
have the British crying themselves to sleep over that great whupper of Britons
having a statue in London.

~~~
emiliobumachar
My point is: French folks are less interested in British social cohesion than
British folks, so glorification of the invasion in France does not undermine
rayiner's original argument that the British are de-emphasizing that part of
their history for social cohesion's sake.

------
lorcan
The left has become like the Taliban or ISIS.
[https://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/isis-
terror/isis-n315451](https://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/isis-
terror/isis-n315451)

~~~
archagon
Don’t be stupid.

~~~
threezero
That’s pretty rude.

~~~
archagon
Comparing the left to ISIS seems pretty obnoxiously rude to me.

~~~
threezero
I think they were comparing the fact that both ISIS and the people in this
article (leftists) were bent on destroying art that they didn’t like. And you
were directly rude to that person.

------
povertyworld
Apparently this isn't the first time people have attempted to destroy these
murals. The first time was in 1966.

[https://archive.org/details/communitymuralsp00barnrich/page/...](https://archive.org/details/communitymuralsp00barnrich/page/150)

------
krick
$600,000 to re-paint a wall? I am too distracted by thinking how can I
participate, to argue against "erasing history" and stuff.

------
briga
Leave it to California to figure out how to spend 600k to get rid of a mural.
Doesn't this city have more pressing problems to fix?

------
tnolet
As someone with an MA in Art History, this is simply astounding and
unbelievable. None of the people on that school board seem to have any
historical perspective:

\- Rivera, his work and his pupils like the mentioned painter were left
wingers actively denouncing white privilege, slavery etc.

\- The work is meant to be critical and through being uncomfortable evoke
discussion and reflection

\- Destroying art because “it doesn’t fit what we think is right” has many
really bad examples in history.

I really can’t believe this is happening. Totally sickening and it makes me
despair for the education of the kids under this school board.

------
baggy_trough
San Francisco school board reveals that it is manifestly unfit to serve in any
kind of educational role.

------
the8472
_like Saturn, the Revolution devours its children_

Or its forbears in this case.

------
archagon
I hate that articles like this get posted to HN just for people to feel
outraged. On the order of nobody here has heard of this mural before today.

I guess this sucks. I wish the mural went to a museum instead. There are more
important things to care about.

------
js2
This piece isn’t argued in even remotely good faith. Among other things, I
don’t know why the writer tries to drag one of the current presidential
candidates into it.

In any case, here’s a piece which seems to stick to the facts. Form your own
opinion.

[https://richmondsfblog.com/2019/04/09/historic-wpa-murals-
at...](https://richmondsfblog.com/2019/04/09/historic-wpa-murals-at-george-
washington-high-school-are-facing-destruction-due-to-controversial-depictions-
of-native-americans-and-african-americans/)

------
pyuser583
This is straight out of Parks and Rec.

[https://parksandrecreation.fandom.com/wiki/Pawnee_City_Hall](https://parksandrecreation.fandom.com/wiki/Pawnee_City_Hall)

------
l00sed
[https://l-o-o-s-e-d.net/public-domain](https://l-o-o-s-e-d.net/public-domain)

I wrote about another situation in which public art created a stir in the
community. This mural wasn't on the wall of a building, so it's removal was
cheap. What's interesting to me is two things: it's initial anonymity (nobody
recognized it for what it is until recently), and how it forces a
consideration of collective traumatic memory.

------
ohiovr
Were there protests when it was originally completed or were people more able
to accept social commentary then vrs now? High school was considered a place
of higher learning. But now they dislike any kind of critical thinking. The
school board should not white wash history. They should enforce the teaching
of it.

------
nisuni
What is ironic is that the painting is a political, left-wing work of art, and
it was created with the intent of denouncing the hypocrisy of the founding
fathers.

Are we doing a good service to the youth removing any kind of potentially
disturbing imagery? I don’t think so. Reality can be disturbing at times, and
still needs to be known.

------
giaour
Was the mural featured in the article the inspiration for
[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Camel_(Parks_and_Recreat...](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Camel_\(Parks_and_Recreation\))
?

------
dgzl
Who is surprised? Certainly not me.

------
andy-x
And don't forget to burn the books.

------
buboard
Non paywalled source : [https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/jun/27/san-
francisc...](https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/jun/27/san-francisco-
high-school-murals-painted-over)

Couldnt they just paint over the offending parts of the mural? Sounds more
conciliatory

------
apo
> These and other explanations from the board’s members reflected the logic of
> the Reflection and Action Working Group, a committee of activists, students,
> artists and others put together last year by the district. Arnautoff’s work,
> the group concluded in February, “glorifies slavery, genocide, colonization,
> Manifest Destiny, white supremacy, oppression, etc.” The art does not
> reflect “social justice,” the group said, and it “is not student-centered if
> it’s focused on the legacy of artists, rather than the experience of the
> students.”

There's enough horror in American history, and depictions of them, to keep
these committees busy for a long time. Washington, Jefferson, the confederacy,
westward expansion, and slavery were not very controversial historical topics
just 60 years ago.

Think about all of the events/figures likely to offend at least one vocal
group maybe not now, but in the future:

\- Andrew Jackson (purveyor of genocide)

\- Theorore Roosevelt (bloodthirsty militarist)

\- WWI (unjust war)

\- Transcontinental railroad (genocide's superhighway)

\- Texas war of independence (slavery)

\- Moon landing (cold war publicity stunt)

\- The Manhattan Project (America's WMD program)

\- Albert Einstein and FDR (for kickstarting the world's nuclear nightmare)

\- Lyndon Johnson (genocidal maniac)

\- George W Bush (bloodthirsty militarist and torturer)

\- Barack Obama (architect of America's robotic warfare system)

\- Donald Trump (basically everything he ever did)

\- The Republican Party (for supporting Donald Trump)

Some of these events/figures seem like a stretch. Maybe they are, but a lot
can change in 60 years. The point is that we now have ample evidence for very
vocal groups calling for, and getting action on, suppression of vast swaths of
American history in the form of artwork and symbols.

------
tlear
Story of the author is quite interesting. Fought against the reds, then became
one.

This criticism of US was created as communists in USSR were in process of
murdering millions. He did not have much to say about that. In fact he went
back to USSR in 1960s

If he was in any way useful he would have been recruited in 30s, but I guess
NKVD did not think him to be of any consequence.

It is absolutely hilarious that his ideological descendants are now destroying
his work. He would get it quite well, after all Soviets wiped as much culture
as they could that preceded them. Blew up churches and all that good stuff. I
wonder when SF will get to that stage, they are basically there now, just
couple more steps.

San Francisco not even once.

------
trophycase
Busybodies with nothing better to do

------
nec4b
Reminds me of Buddhas of Bamyan, which were destroyed by the Taliban, who
probably didn't realize that they have same minded allies in SF school board.

~~~
m0llusk
That is really a stretch. The Buddhas were large sculptures that were present
for a long time and had deep religious meaning. San Francisco has a great many
murals from the 20s through the 40s and often finds them in the way of
remodeling or rebuilding of structures. Maybe after a few hundred years of
adoration these works might compete, but as it stands they are large,
misunderstood, and largely unloved. The driving need to misinterpret and
destroy art is disturbing, but the history lost in this case is less than a
hundred years of modest impact.

~~~
nec4b
They both want do destroy (not remove) art for ideological reason. This is not
a an artistic value judgement. Anyway i feel sorry for kids that have no
choice but to visit that school or live in a place where they form
revolutionary committees whose job is to destroy non conformant art. I think
we had enough of that in history.

~~~
darkpuma
On the bright side, the children have had a front row seat to an important
lesson about society. But I wonder how many were truly paying attention.

Almost 15 years ago I saw a similar situation unfold in Dover PA. I know at
least some of the kids in that school district learned from the dumb shit
those adults were up to.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kitzmiller_v._Dover_Area_Schoo...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kitzmiller_v._Dover_Area_School_District)

~~~
nec4b
I sincerely hope that they do learn and when they do, they do not give up.

------
nullwasamistake
This reminds me of the destruction of Confederate statues recently. We lament
ISIS destroying historical sites they don't agree with, then we do the same
thing. There's nothing to be gained from erasing history. Those that suggest
it are just a different flavor of fascists

------
Jonnax
"In one of the panels – which are displayed in the halls of George Washington
High School in San Francisco – shows slaves working in a field. Another
depicts white settlers stepping over the body of a deceased Native American."

Why is this appropriate for a high school mural?

~~~
maxerickson
The article has some analysis:

 _“At the time, high school history classes typically ignored the incongruity
that Washington and others among the nation’s founders subscribed to the
declaration that ‘all men are created equal’ and yet owned other human beings
as chattel,” Robert W. Cherny writes in “Victor Arnautoff and the Politics of
Art.”

In other words, Arnautoff’s purpose was to unsettle the viewer, to provoke
young people into looking at American history from a different, darker
perspective. Over the past months, art historians, New Deal scholars and even
a group called the Congress of Russian Americans have tried to make exactly
that point._

I mean, gosh, the horror of young people confronting history.

~~~
zaroth
The vanishingly few students who might actually have taken the time to
confront the images, and come away somewhat disturbed by them, are the very
ones most benefiting from it.

