
Ask HN: I don't like my new job, now what? - orangepenguin
Six months ago, I took a new job as a developer. I expected to feel like an outsider for a while. No new job is &quot;comfortable&quot;. However, I started to notice that my team is really abrasive. They&#x27;re always correcting everything, job related or not (how to write code, best way to cook something, reasons for economic changes, etc). I make some comment about the world and get a response like &quot;Well, if you&#x27;d studied [such and such] you&#x27;d know that... [why you&#x27;re wrong]&quot;. Many of these things are opinion-based anyway. Despite the fact that I bring the most external experience, the guys I work with on a daily basis act like they are trying to teach me how to program. It&#x27;s really demeaning.<p>What should I do? (What CAN I do?)<p>I&#x27;ve debated talking to my manager about these concerns, but I don&#x27;t know that there&#x27;s any way he could address the issues--he can&#x27;t change the personalities of my team members. Still, I feel he deserves a chance.<p>Should I just quit and go somewhere else? It feels like doing so would make my resume look pretty bad since it hasn&#x27;t been long. Also, it seems like I owe something to this company for giving me a job and good pay.<p>Are there other ways I can address this?
======
ericzawo
Wanna get back to them and show them they ain't shit? Be profoundly,
intolerably nice to them especially when they 'correct' you. "oh, I didn't
know that! Thanks! Any books specifically you could recommend on (x subject in
the news that's really their hot take)?"

Then, at month 10-11 of working there, begin looking for a new job
immediately.

~~~
namelezz
I don't think this is a good behavior. I think knowledge sharing is good. What
if everyone keeps everything to themselves.

~~~
rnovak
> Be profoundly, intolerably nice

> I don't think this is a good behavior

Being nice/personable isn't a good behavior?

~~~
gargravarr
Being unbearably nice is difficult to pull off without mocking. It's a fine
line generally only walked to make a point.

------
gargravarr
I'll just add my $0.02 and say that sticking a job for a year is not
necessary. I quit my first job shortly after I passed my probation - it was my
first job out of university, and whilst the people weren't toxic, the work
was, and the commute was hell like I have never encountered before. Right
after I passed my probation things actually got worse, because then (as is
normal in the UK) I had a 1-month notice period. I needed money to start
paying my student loans so I'd stuck with the awful job, but once the first 3
months were up, I fell into depression. It was an extremely bleak period in my
life. I was able to pull my boss to one side and talked to him at great length
about the work I was doing, that I didn't feel I was contributing anything
meaningful, that I was wasting my time in the job. He empathised, but there
was little we could do to improve things. I looked at moving teams, but
nothing appealed. We came to conclusion that the company and me were mutually
incompatible. Shortly thereafter, I handed in my notice. I left at the 5-month
mark.

About 6 months later, when I was feeling better, I interviewed for a job
closer to home. When asked about why I was only at my first job for 5 months,
I answered that I left for personal reasons. The matter wasn't pushed, but I
later felt like I'd blown it. Much to my surprise, I got an offer, and a good
one. I'm still at this company 2 and a half years later.

My conclusion is that no job is ever worth staying in if you don't feel like
you're doing anything meaningful. If I'd tried to stick my first job for a
full year, I would have topped myself. I couldn't stand working like that. I
discussed the faults of my old job with my new colleagues after I started here
and they understood.

As long as you're not hopping jobs every few months, you should be able to
convince your interviewer it was a one-off. Don't worry about trying to work a
full year in a toxic environment. Move on if you need to. At the end of the
day, you can put a spin on your resume, but you can't spin your personal
satisfaction with your job.

------
kenesom1
If you think the situation is unlikely to improve, line up a better job and
then quit. You don't have to tolerate a dysfunctional team. It won't affect
your resume or job prospects and joining a better team will enhance your
career.

~~~
nailer
+1 Also next time do some due diligence and check glassdoor.com: every company
has a few people who didn't fit in, but if Glassdoor is pages and pages of
people talking about how dysfunctional the company is, or how bad the culture
is, then you can expect it to be accurate.

------
andrewshatnyy
I might be wrong, but it looks to me you lack confidence. Every time that
happens do anything outside of your comfort zone. In professional context:
Learn a new programming language, get familiar with a new framework, study
fundamental CS. In social context: Go out more, talk to ladies if you're guy,
talk to boys if you're girl.

I sense in your case you're dealing with passioned/opinionated people and you
should take constructive criticism and advance yourself. But don't take shit
from them.

Have your own opinion on things even if it's not the right one. I love
reasonably opinionated conversations because I can learn new from those if I
am wrong or incompetent in certain areas.

In the end you don't owe them anything and they don't owe you anything (aside
from money).

Think of your job as a process of you helping the company with your talent and
time. Move on if it's not fun for you and you don't learn anything new.

~~~
orangepenguin
I really appreciate your feedback. I don't lack confidence, and happily accept
constructive comments from my coworkers. The thing I'm having trouble with is
my coworkers treating me like I'm inexperienced and untrained (both untrue).
They want me to always trust everything they say without question, but don't
want to give my suggestions any consideration. If I discover I'm wrong, I
readily admit this and adopt the correct thinking. If they're wrong, they
belittle me.

What I like about your comment is that it reminds me that I don't need to get
bent out of shape about my coworkers problems. If they aren't good at
accepting feedback, they're the ones who aren't learning and growing. I can
just keep on progressing on my own until I find an opportunity to work
somewhere with a more healthy environment.

------
freakono
This type of personalities are common in the tech world. Get used to it. Don't
let it rock your boat. Do your job, do it the way your superiors want it
done(no matter how you prefer to do it). If they want their eggs scrambbled,
make them scrambbled, if they want them overeasy, make them overweasy. The
customer is always right because they pay you to do it the way they want it.
No need to bring your personal opinions into the work place. If it's too
uncomfortable, like someone else said here, tough it out for a year then make
a move.

~~~
cookiecaper
I upvoted you, because I think this is useful advice to some extent. A lot of
people go into programming because they want to be objectively right all the
time and they can't handle extended interpersonal dealings. Programming gives
them those opportunities; the compiler makes a binary decision about whether
your code is "right" or "wrong", and they can always shut people out by saying
they have to work on code. As such, difficult personalities are very common in
corporate IT. You can't leave every job over it. Gotta suck it up and just
learn to get work done while avoiding your co-workers' triggers unless you
know the problem is truly extreme in your workplace.

~~~
jazzyk
smart/inquisitive != asshole

~~~
cookiecaper
Neither does "smart/inquisitive" mean "must always be proved right" or "can't
talk to people". Your comment does not seem relevant.

~~~
jazzyk
I think you've just agreed with me? Perhaps I should have used "does not
imply" instead of "not equal to". And the comment is relevant, because I claim
that there are many smart people in IT who are not jerks, while you had a
defeatist attitude ("most people in IT are difficult, deal with it".

------
likerofnews
Unfortunately, it sounds like this job isn't a fit for you. I was in the same
position 2 years ago when I joined a company, and four months in, I dreaded
going to work everyday. The CTO liked to mock competitors with young CEOs, the
product manager and eng manager I worked with were racist against Latinos, and
the senior eng team had a dogmatic view on writing software. Needless to say,
I lined up another job and left. It was the best decision I ever made. Now I'm
surrounded by open-minded, supportive, and creative individuals.

------
sjs382
Life is too short to stress about how leaving an unhappy situation will affect
how people will view you professionally—just do it.

------
jacquesm
I was a rookie programmer thinking I was hot shit for a bank a long time ago
and the 'old hands' were pretty much like you describe.

 _But_ they were right and it took me a while to appreciate this. Even so
after two years I left my job to start my first company but the experience
gained over those two years was worth gold later on and the combined knowledge
of those people was immense.

I'd suggest you take a different attitude for a bit, assume they are _really_
trying to teach you, engage them and eat up as much of their time as they're
willing to give to educate you. Then, when you've really absorbed all there is
to be absorbed (that could be today, I can't tell from your description) look
for another place where you _again_ can learn a lot. That's the best reason to
change employers: that you've reached a plateau in what you can learn on that
job.

------
kelukelugames
I was in the same boat a year ago. Started a job in June 2014, thought about
leaving in July, and started prepping for interviews in October. I did the
bare minimum and studied for interviews everyday. My boss even caught me
working on leetcode during a meeting. I had to host a couple of team morale
events to avoid suspicion.

I also annoyed management by trying to start a salary spreadsheet. That was
fun.

I stayed till August 2015 because of the 1 year thing and for a whopping
$5,000 worth of options. But after I jumped, I discovered that a lot of people
leave bad jobs within a year. I think it's okay as long as you don't do it
more than once.

Lastly, would you trust someone you barely know? I wouldn't. Don't talk to
your manager.

tl:dr

1\. Life is short and software market is hot.

2\. Get ready to leave but don't make it too obvious. ;)

~~~
covati
That manager advice sound horrible. That is the point of a manager. If you
can't trust them with something as basic and important as team interactions,
then there is a bigger problem.

~~~
dpark
What can a manager possibly do in this situation? "Hey, Boss. Everyone on me
team is an asshole. Can you fix that?"

If it was one person on the team causing problems, it could make sense to talk
with the manager. If the entire team is toxic (or a bad fit for OP), there is
little to nothing the manager can do except maybe help OP move to a different
team.

Edit: To be clear, I'm not saying it's a _bad_ idea to talk to the manager,
unless the manager is one of the toxic team members. But I'm not sure it's
very useful, either.

~~~
techcode
Maybe manager says "So it's not just me thinking that", or "I've noticed guys
can be pretty hard on you at times. Since you haven't brought it up, I thought
you're ok with it"...

I can think of million other things that might or might not happen.

And I know only one way to really find out - try and see. Are there other
ways?

~~~
dpark
Suppose the manager has those reactions. What then? They'll sit down with the
team and have the "don't be mean" talk? I'm just not sure I see that working
well. That seems more likely to breed resentment even if it resolves the
superficial "combative" behavior.

I'd probably try talking to the individual team members 1:1. As uncomfortable
as that would be, I think it is a better bet than having it come from the
manager.

~~~
orangepenguin
Good point. If I am as mature an adult as I believe myself to be, I ought to
be able to have a peaceful conversation about this with a couple of coworkers
individually. Definitely would be better than putting them on the defensive by
sending a manager after them.

------
devnonymous
After many years and many jobs i've bought into this philosophy - good work
environment, good work and good pay; 3 out of 3 is ideal, 2 out of the 3 is
minimum. If you can't get at least 2 out of those 3, just quit. Don't worry
about how it would look on your resume. If you know your stuff there will
always be places who will accept 'toxic work environment' as a reasonable
explanation for quitting a job. In fact, if you are going to use that excuse,
it is better that you quit now rather than a year from now to avoid answering
the question 'if it was so bad, why did you stick around for over a year? '

------
patorjk
Leave. You will not be able to change the personalities of those you work with
and going above their heads to complain will not put you in a better position
(unless doing so could move you to another team). One job stint at 6 months
will not hurt you. I would argue your work environment is the most important
part of your job. You spend a lot of your waking hours with these people, you
don't want to be miserable.

------
pawelkomarnicki
From my personal experience, I can say that such teams are toxic and you have
2 options: 1) don't say anything publicly, just focus on the work, and 2)
leave. If the company has a huge turnover (like the one I worked at), nobody
will say anything about leaving quickly. Just be confident, you cannot lower
your value as a developer and human being just to fit some bad, toxic place.

------
drinchev
I've always had this scenario in my head ... Here is what I think you should
do :

1\. Tell your boss you quit, because of the facts you point here. Tell your
co-workers you quit, because you are not satisfied with the job. ( You will
have done the best thing for the company if you do that ).

2\. Find a new job/work and don't talk about why you quit your previous job in
details. Just tell your new boss : "Well I wasn't satisfied with the team. I
didn't have a chance to be valuable, because of their closed-culture. They
didn't want anything more from me than being a non-thinking programmer.".
Trust me, he will like this. If he doesn't you will end up in the same company

3\. In between ... start working on an open source project with good
reputation to gain back your confidence ( if you've lost something out of your
job ). Even one Merged pull request is a big deal in those moments.

If all of this doesn't work. Let me know. I'm living in Berlin and I think I
can find something for you if you want to relocate.

~~~
beeboop
If a job candidate told me their previous team had a closed-culture and was
unappreciative of their talents I would think it was the candidate who was
difficult and thought too highly of himself.

I would simply stick the lines of "The work they had me doing wasn't where my
strengths really were. I think there was some miscommunication during the
hiring process as to what the job really entailed". All of which is true in
OP's case - it wasn't communicated to him how incompatible he would be with
his team and he's not going to perform his best work there. This method
doesn't place blame on anyone (important) and doesn't make you sound difficult
or overly particular.

------
it_learnses
Yep get another job offer and leave. If they try to convince you to stay with
a higher pay or something, don't take it because they will let you go as soon
as they get a chance anyway.

You can mention in your exit interview that your manager was nice and you were
leaving due to a dysfunctional team if you want.

------
la6470
Staying there for a whole year will kill your soul

Anyway that's gonna happen as you grow up

------
treebeard901
In my opinion, you should only go to your manager if it has an effect on your
work. Even then it's rare. Since you're the new guy and the others have
presumably been there for a while... You will find it difficult to make your
case. You risk running up against the trope of not being a 'team player'.

Honestly what you described does not sound that bad. You should think about
other similar situations in your past that you have had with other people and
try to see if you have a pattern of needing to be right. It is entirely
possible you are externalizing some fault in your own personality.

Regardless, look at it as a learning opportunity. If you can't handle the
various personalities in the world without it effecting you on a personal
level, you're going to have a tough time.

~~~
orangepenguin
Very good comments. What I failed to mention in my original post was that I
feel that the discussions are really one-sided. My co-workers expect me to
listen to and do everything they say, and don't want to hear any suggestions
from me. I'm fine with other people considering my suggestions and then
deciding against them. I'm not okay with coworkers who just reject my ideas
because they came from the new guy.

I do think you're right about tolerating different personalities, and about
talking to a manager. I'll tread carefully.

------
debacle
It's a job-shoppers' market right now. Six months is a fine time to work in a
caustic environment. Explain yourself clearly and it wont matter at all.

------
techcode
Always? Everything?

There's not even one example where they reacted in a "nice way"?

Seems you haven't told them how such thing make you feel?

Maybe it's not personality, and perhaps they don't know this stuff is
bothering you...

Definitely talk to your manager, and try talking to your team as well.

Focus on observations/examples as well as how those situations make you feel.

I agree that life is too short, and IT is full of "difficult" people. Instead
of running away from it, get better in dealing with them.

~~~
orangepenguin
You're right. I did misrepresent the situation. I've had quite a few positive
experiences there too. Some of the best feedback I've gotten from this thread
is that I should be looking at my own behavior and considering whether or not
I'm doing my part to learn and be friendly to work with. I still may consider
a job change in time, but I should be careful about where I place blame and
what accusations I throw around.

------
yanilkr
In many cases, if you are a new person, other people are still testing
boundaries. I had a similar experience before. I sarcastically asked a co-
worker if he has been an asshole all his life or just today because of the
weather. That set things right that one time.

There is a first time to everything. If you move away, you are moving away
from an opportunity to deal with things you never dealt with before. Your job
is not so precious as you think. Try different approaches, be confrontational
when you want to be, you don't have to be nice anymore, try to overcome this
and you would be a much better person for yourself and others. Why do you have
to be the one that goes to the manager, why cant you send your colleagues to
the manager? Your manager might trust you more if you learn to deal with
situations yourself.

It is possible some of my advice might seem "bad or condescending" but who
cares I said what I wanted to say.

I happened to watch this old Andy Griffith show, it might be relevant.
[https://vimeo.com/66146806](https://vimeo.com/66146806)

------
JoeAltmaier
Leave. Explain the resume issue: "It was a toxic working environment".

~~~
metasean
a) As described, it isn't a "toxic environment". My previous job the boss
would go on verbal and physical tirades almost daily (cursing loud enough to
be heard through multiple walls, throwing hardware, ripping a door off its
hinges, etc). Meanwhile, in one job, my mother had a boss made them work
through a breakdown of the A/C. Their _office_ temperatures were exceeding 100
degrees and most of the full-time staff were over 50 years old. This
ultimately led to that boss' death at her own desk. Those are "toxic
environments". As the OP described their situation, the environment is
certainly not supportive, and is uncomfortable and demoralizing, but it
doesn't sound like their physical welfare is in jeopardy, so it shouldn't be
called 'toxic'.

b) As cookiecaper indicated, you should focus on the positives of the job
you're interviewing for, not the negatives of the current job. For example,
"I'm looking for a more respectful and collegial work environment that
supports mutual skill development." The interviewer may take that as "this
person is coming from an unsupportive environment" but it could also be taken
as "this person is coming from a so-so, hum-drum environment and simply wants
a better environment."

------
random_coder
As far as your work is concerned, if you believe your code or design choices
are valid, don't accept their corrections or suggestions so easily. Explain
your choices and listen to them seriously. Let THEM convince you why you're in
the wrong. Ask for clarifications and don't let them leave until you are fully
convinced. Stand up for yourself, OP.

------
DrSayre
I would leave if I was you, but I would leave on good terms. I had a job where
I was in a similar position as OP, however another issue was my job was in
SharePoint/SAP and I knew I wanted to be a Rails developer. That made my
situation a lot easier to leave. I told my boss that working with SAP and
SharePoint wasn't for me and that I wanted to get back to doing what I wanted
to do. Because I left on good terms, I can probably go back if I ever wanted
to... (but hopefully I won't have to!)

After thinking about it some more, I would consider if you like what you are
doing. There was several people I dreaded seeing everyday, but I also didnt
like what I was doing and wanted to go back to doing something I liked doing.
Both of those problems made it pretty easy for me to leave my job. If you like
what you are doing, I would try to make it work or at least stick it out long
enough to find another job doing that.

------
muyfine
There's a great tangentially related article around this by Malcolm Gladwell
on Albert Hirschman:

[http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2013/06/24/the-gift-of-
dou...](http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2013/06/24/the-gift-of-doubt)
[http://www.hup.harvard.edu/catalog.php?isbn=9780674276604](http://www.hup.harvard.edu/catalog.php?isbn=9780674276604)

'makes a basic distinction between alternative ways of reacting to
deterioration in business firms and, in general, to dissatisfaction with
organizations: one, “exit,” is for the member to quit the organization or for
the customer to switch to the competing product, and the other, “voice,” is
for members or customers to agitate and exert influence for change “from
within.”'

Hope that helps you figure out whether to use your voice or your feet!

~~~
edhebert
I once got this advice as, "Either change your organization or change your
organization."

------
DanielBMarkham
This sounds like a personality conflict.

Old joke: "Personality conflict" is one of those code phrases for "Somebody
here is an asshole"

Seriously, though, team members have certain styles, and teams fit together in
a certain way. Most companies never figure out that you can take 4 or 5 great
teams, remix all the people, then end up with 4 or 5 horrible teams. It's not
skills -- a lot has to do with the way the personalities mix.

If you are completely out to sea -- unaware of how to continue -- perhaps you
just name it and shame it. "Hey Joe, I see you're trying to teach me error
handling again although I've been doing this longer than you have. Okay if I
start doing the same to you?" Then start doing it.

Was working with a CEO of a small company once. I think they had around
100-120 employees, all knowledgeable about a certain part of tech. I was
brought in also as somebody who knew what he was doing, but since I was
working directly with the CEO, I kind of held back a bit to see how he worked.

Bad decision. He ran over me. The first time he mentioned something they had
invited me in on, I tried to raise my hand. He ignored me. The second time I
was a little more insistent. By Day 3, he started in on the same topic again,
I simply said "You know, I've written a couple of small books about this and
devised my own training material. But what the hell do I know?"

I wish I could say that solved the problem. It did not. He was still an
asshole and we didn't get along. But I had to take what he was doing to me and
do it right back to him for him to be able to see it. I got to start doing the
work they had hired me for. If we had continued working together after that
first week, it would have probably gotten very interesting!

Either you walk or give as good as you get. If you're shy and the others are
domineering, passive and passive/aggressive techniques are just going to make
it worse.

------
staunch
Good companies don't worry about "job hoppers" because they know a good
environment usually solves the "problem". Consider it a red flag when a
company has weird policies or treats you in ways you would not treat people.

------
JSeymourATL
> but I don't know that there's any way he could address the issues...

Biggest headache for a boss is getting team members to play nice with each
other.

The ability to solve problems with ones peers is a desirable managerial
quality. Interpersonal savvy is very much a learned & practiced skill. This
could prove a huge opportunity for your professional growth.

Suggest reading up in this area, Robert Bolton's book on People Skills is a
good place to start >
[http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/65327.People_Skills](http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/65327.People_Skills)

Ultimately, moving on to a new company is easy. But dealing with difficult
peers never fully goes away.

~~~
issaria
> But dealing with difficult peers never fully goes away.

Pure wisdom.

~~~
issaria
The downvote just proved that one can never avoid asshole in a company and on
the internet.

------
efes
I'd look closely at how they interact with each other. It is entirely possible
that they are genuinely looking for debates to get to the bottom of things
(which can often go to the point of comedy in tech circles.) There are a lot
of ways to get along in that kind of environment by picking your battles and
knowing when to change subjects..

But if you don't find a way to get along with them that suites you, then I
would recommend going on interviews as soon as possible to gauge your markets
reaction. Just don't say anything bad about them; you can always find an
arbitrary difference between two employers and pretend that difference is a
little more significant to you.

------
cookiecaper
You can give your manager the chance to make a modification, but you should be
mentally prepared to leave before you do that. They probably won't fire you
just for explaining some interpersonal difficulties, but it will mark you as a
dissatisfied employee and fundamentally change your relationship with the
company. You'll be at the top of the list for layoffs or other adverse action.

Don't go into this with any expectation that anything will get fixed. Most
likely, the manager will take your concerns to your co-workers and tell them
to fly right, they'll make a token effort for a couple of weeks, and it'll go
right back to the way it was after that.

~~~
techcode
If you go into anything with mindset that nothing will change - it's more
likely that it will not change.

And if it turns out company is so bad and reacts like you've described - then
you at least know you really don't want to be working there anymore.

And when someone in the future asks you "What did you do (to improve/change
situation)?" you can say "I tried! I gave it my best - specifically this and
that and ..."

------
will_pseudonym
I experienced this exact phenomenon when I took a job in a new region (Pacific
NW). Out of the team of 6 non-managers, half were amazing and fun people. The
other three were myopic, antisocial assholes. Add to that my manager was an
absentminded professor type, and his boss was super intense/smart, and scared
the living day lights out of everyone because she didn't understand that new
employees needed help understanding what concepts she was explaining.

The point is, I was miserable, and after 3-4 months I knew it was not the
right team for me. I found a new job quickly (networking, kids!) and once I
found out my new start date I had a talk with my immediate manager and told
him why I was leaving. I told him about the toxic culture. I told him about
being made to feel stupid because I had tried to build process improvements
which amounted to moving someone's cheese a few millimeters. He understood,
and was grateful. I told the HR person about the team dynamics. I told her
that this toxic attitude towards change would continue to drive talented
people like me out of the organization. She profusely thanked me and said that
it had been the best exit interview she had ever had.

Fast forward 6 months on my new job, and I'm unhappy here for entirely
different reasons. Time to start looking again!

I absolutely do think you should talk to your manager. If you don't, you are
missing an opportunity to practice the skill of having difficult
conversations, and you're short changing whomever comes into your job after
you, who'll have to have that conversation, too. Plus, your manager might
surprise you. She/he might have a way to make you happy! Do start looking for
a new job today. And for the love of all that's holy, make your next interview
all about figuring out what the people will be like to work with. Don't come
to the interview from a place of "I have to get this job." Come at it like a
date. You're trying to arrive at a mutually beneficial fit. Don't try to
impress them; just be yourself and see if there's a spark!

You don't owe them anything in the United States unless you're under contract.
What you kind of do owe them as a good person is to talk to your manager
before deciding to quit.

------
LoSboccacc
"Job hopper stink" only really apply if you have two consecutive short shifts.
Be sure to change job with an offer in hand and double check the culture in
the new place as you will be stuck there for longer.

As a side note, culture fit is a two way road, but from the post you wrote
they are all monster while you bring all the objectivity and experience. You
might want to review the way the story is told, because, frankly, there are
quite some red flags that come from it.

------
dimgl
Hello OP.

I just spent a year at a company that was toxic towards team members who
simply did not an aggressive personality. I was one of those team members. It
led me to become pessimistic and depressed, and my positive outlook on life
quickly changed and I became the most negative I've ever been. I began to
constantly criticize IT and development decisions unconsciously, and it got so
bad that eventually even the simplest JavaScript code would piss me off.

I started looking around and I got a job offer. As soon as I was going to
accept the job offer, someone at my current employer discovered that I was
planning to leave and my boss caught wind of it (I suspect I left my computer
open). My boss pulled me aside and actually convinced me to stay because of
the prospects of success. The company had already given me big bonuses and had
very good benefits. That was four months ago. I made the choice to stay in a
toxic environment just for some arbitrary gain.

Three weeks ago, out of seemingly nowhere, I got fired. I let go of a valuable
opportunity because I convinced myself of some arbitrary gains by staying and
I had fears of leaving.

I was desperate to find another job and I accepted a terrible offer using
terrible technology. I thought I was fucked; I was severely depressed because
it was the first time I had gotten fired from a serious position. But I got
lucky. Although I'm now working at another company with terrible technology
(ASP.NET Web Forms), the people are the nicest and sweetest coworkers I've
ever met. I'm happier here, working with shitty technology and shitty
prospects, just because my environment is that much better. And I'm not
settling here: I am constantly looking for better positions (and contracts)
and looking to advance my career until I find the company that I fit in and is
a good fit for me as well.

DON'T SETTLE. LEAVE. If you're not happy, don't stay in the position you're
in. Unless you need to build your resume or gain experience, there's no reason
for you to stay faithful to a company with a toxic environment. You're going
to be there eight hours a day, and if things don't work out they will
IMMEDIATELY fire you and you'll be fucked, like I was. Usually a toxic
environment simply means that you don't fit, and they will let you go simply
for not being a fit. Don't make the mistake I made; leave.

One last thing: good developers tend to be overly critical, but that doesn't
mean all overly critical people are good developers or even good workers. Many
developers have terrible social skills and are unable to properly and
professionally express their opinions or thoughts. Don't let anyone tell you
how you should be treated or what you should be okay with. If you have a gut
feeling that the people you work with are unprofessional, don't brush it off
as "oh, they're developers. That's how all developers are." This is a fucking
cop-out. I have met plenty competent developers who are able to give
constructive criticism without being a complete dick.

~~~
hardwaresofton
Just a note -- If you feel like the technology is shitty/outdated, update it
:)

If you're in a company with good employees, they'll realize the effort you're
putting in benefits all of them, and they'll reward you for it (at least
socially, if not monetarily). The other devs will thank you, and most likely
shower you with praise and love

~~~
dimgl
I am currently in the process of educating my coworkers on newer technologies
and methodologies, and it may work in my favor. It is the reason I am not so
bothered by the technical debt; my peers are very interested in learning new
things and taking this company to the next level. I would not feel the same if
they were very close minded and not subject to change at all.

~~~
hardwaresofton
Awesome to hear! I often long to return to some previous jobs I've worked at
which had somewhat inferior tech/methodology, since I feel like I could do so
much good and really move the organization forward.

Awesome that you're taking time to educate your coworkers on the newer tech
and methodologies! Even better that they're receptive and are learning.
There's some pretty cool stuff in newer versions of the .NET ecosystem

------
limeyx
I definitely know that feeling. Prepare to leave is my best advice.

But I'd advise (depending on your circumstances of savings, chances of getting
a new job soon etc) to not simply quit, but use a bit of time to really put
yourself in a strong position to get a new job w/out the pressure of needing
one.

if its a big company maybe you could transfer to a new team ?

------
Recurecur
If possible, stick it out for a year. Many hiring managers view that as
fulfilling your initial obligations after being hired (hiring expense etc.).

Try to find a way to make lemonade with the lemons you work with. Maybe you'll
teach them a thing or two. Also, possibly some of their criticism is valid,
regardless of how poorly delivered...

~~~
RogerL
> Many hiring managers view that as fulfilling your initial obligations after
> being hired (hiring expense etc.).

Some do. I'd rather have somebody leave ASAP so I can bring somebody in that
will stay, be happy, and excel at the job. Why have somebody work for 1 year
just to walk away? Hiring costs are sunk; you shouldn't be computing value
based on sunk costs.

------
chrismbarr
Work is one thing, your co-workers are another. If you don't like the people
you are spending 40+ hours a week with, I'd begin looking for something else.
It sounds like you've given it a pretty fair shot. Software is easy to fix
compared to people.

How long have you been there so far?

~~~
domain_
> Six months ago, I took a new job as a developer.

The first sentence.

------
emocin
Agree with the manager sentiment. It's their job to manage the team.

Failing that, I'd find a new job; you don't owe the company anything
(literally) and you owe it to yourself to not be miserable.

------
gnaritas
You don't owe them anything; leave, as soon as you can.

------
presidentender
Get a new job. If you consistently job-hop, that establishes a pattern of
behavior. Leaving one job one time can be explained by poor fit.

------
Madlib
Hang in there and save up for 5-6 months of cushion money first, then dip. lol

------
namelezz
Sharing knowledge is not bad.

------
centrinoblue
Life is too short get out

