
StackExchange offers 'possible reinstatement' to moderator removed over pronouns - MilnerRoute
https://tech.slashdot.org/story/19/12/28/0448227/stack-exchange-apologizes-offers-possible-reinstatement-to-moderator-removed-over-pronouns-policy
======
Macha
Honestly, I hope Monica got a good payout from the settlement, as this barely
retracts the comments made to the media portraying her as some kind of
transphobic repeat offender of harassment.

------
andybak
So all of this is because a company that believes in helping the LGBTQ+
community had a dispute with an individual that also believed in helping the
LGBTQ+ community but differed about how to do so.

And all the while there's still genuine real and unambiguous harm and violence
being committed against the community that this is supposed to be about.

Something, something choose your battles...

~~~
arglebarnacle
That's not true--the moderator said she refused to acknowledge non-binary
people by their pronouns if they use a singular "they" because of an
ideological objection to their gender identity.

I am non-binary and use they/them pronouns, and while I'm not bothered when
people avoid my pronouns e.g. by using my name instead, it's another thing
entirely to assert that someone who doesn't consider non-binary identity valid
"believes in helping the LGBTQ+ community but differed in how to do so."

Simply avoiding being rude (by deliberately using the wrong pronouns) is the
baseline for respect, literally the least you can do. To "help" implies to
support--if you support our community please use our correct pronouns and
correct other cis people who misgender trans folks in your presence, don't
merely humor us.

~~~
allovernow
Why does your personal conviction supersede that of those who do not agree
with the non-binary classification of gender? Is it not valid to be offended
over being forced to conform to minority views which are deeply rooted in
politics and justified with a potentially exaggerated narrative of victimhood?

These modern ideas are _far_ from confirmed scientific fact. Yes, there some
sort of a spectrum, but just as the entire concept of "gender" is a social
construct, the real argument is over the definition of the construct, and one
could argue that truly "non-binary" or transgender individuals form a tiny
cluster of outliers near the plane separating conventional male and female
grouping. If that is the case, I personally find it offensive to afford such a
tiny minority such a disproportionate amount of power by allowing it to shape
thought through language policing.

The idea of intersectionality is mathematically equivalent to reducing an
extremely high dimensional space, that of human physiology and behavior, to a
simplified subset with fuzzy clusters separated by an arbitrary number of
hyperplanes (gay, black, trans, etc). The particular modern formulation is one
of an infinite number of possibilities, and it isn't fair to pick a handful of
tiny minority clusters from this particular basis by those with vested
interests, claim that those in particular are oppressed, and then afford them
what are actually special priveledges under the guise of equality.
Particularly when this mindset bleeds into politics and industry, it just
comes off as a blatant powergrab for people who have defined their own social
construct in a manner that benefits themselves.

This is why identity politics drives populations apart. The space of human
nature is sufficiently high dimensional that it is impossible to divide it
into priveledged clusters without picking what amount to arbitrary favorites.

~~~
damnyou
To be clear, we are talking about professional settings here. No one is taking
away your right to misgender someone at a bar (even though you'd be a giant
asshole for doing so). A professional setting like Stack Exchange or a
workplace is very different from a bar, though.

------
Zealotux
Non-exhaustive reminders of the story so far:

\- Full timeline from Monica Cellio herself:
[https://cellio.dreamwidth.org/2019/10/05/stack-overflow-
fias...](https://cellio.dreamwidth.org/2019/10/05/stack-overflow-fiasco-
timeline.html)

\- Her account:
[https://judaism.meta.stackexchange.com/questions/5193/stack-...](https://judaism.meta.stackexchange.com/questions/5193/stack-
overflow-inc-sinat-chinam-and-the-goat-for-azazel)

\- Discussion on HN back then:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21153224](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21153224)

~~~
funmi
Also just came across this audio interview with Monica (~ 1 hr long):
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tFiQPkdb5Qs](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tFiQPkdb5Qs)

------
zzleeper
I'm surprised that Monica Cellio was initially crucified by name all over the
place (by SO), but the employee that did this is still listed everywhere as
"an employee".

------
ratsmack
I think the well has been poisoned at this point and people will forever be
wary of SE.

~~~
ailideex
eh, ..., I mean all of this ... stuff ... is one massive landmine that is best
navigated by not saying anything ... so I don't blame SE - they are probably
defecating bricks just thinking what may happen if they make the wrong move
and then getting into situations where there is legitimately no clear right
move because the whole world has basically lost it's marbles and there is no
clear standard left for what is acceptable or not.

~~~
hirundo
"Then they came for the %OUTGROUP%, and I did not speak out—"

Resistance to this kind of minor injustice does help. It spreads fastest when
the vast center is intimidated into silence.

------
krisoft
How can a company sound this tone deaf again and again about the same topic?

------
rahuldottech
The community is not happy:
[https://meta.stackexchange.com/questions/340906/update-an-
ag...](https://meta.stackexchange.com/questions/340906/update-an-agreement-
with-monica-cellio)

------
OldGuyInTheClub
I'm puzzled. I haven't read all of the history referenced in the comments but
did visit the MetaStack post and a lot of the comments therein. Why would this
moderator have to apply for readmission since it seems she was dismissed
unjustly?

------
raverbashing
> Ms. Cellio expressed concerns about the new process and has not applied."

Not surprising in the least. I think the ship has sailed on this case.

(Though the offer is probably as a token of good will and "no hard feelings")

------
pascal_cuoq
The only new information I got out of this is what passes for “Score:5,
Insightful” nowadays at Slashdot. It's not pretty.

What is supposed to make this interesting, the three links to actual sources
of information, or the comments by Slashdot users?

------
josteink
Too late, damage done. This poison is what you get when you let activists
force the introduction of a CoC.

The first revision of the CoC may not be utterly reprehensible, but once its
power is established, minority activists who would like to force their views
on others will just suggest “updates” to the CoC.

And suddenly there you are with entire SE being toxic drivel, because nobody
dared to say “no” to a vocal minority.

I wonder who will be next.

~~~
wizzwizz4
The CoC is not what caused this issue. Sure, it was badly worded, but it's
responsible for a _different_ set of problems. And any pushing of it came from
within the company and – given how bad it was – probably without much
consulting of knowledgeable representatives of the affected groups.

------
rkljlkjerwer
Until very recently, using "he" in an article was considered sexist because it
assumed the subject was a men. So the recommendation was to use "he/she".

Today, using "he/she" is considered transphobic, as in this SE case, since it
assumes the subject is binary. So the present recommendation is to use "they".

Is this an accurate representation of the current state of affairs?

What's the proper pronoun to use today, if you don't know the actual gender of
the subject, for example because you talk about a hypothetical situation?

Aren't people who identify as other pronouns (xe, zer, ve, aer...) upset by
the use of "they"? Is "they" truly generic and can be used in all situations?

~~~
rdtsc
> Aren't people who identify as other pronouns (xe, zer, ve, aer...) upset by
> the use of "they"? Is "they" truly generic and can be used in all
> situations?

I think that’s the case here. They are upset because they would like to be
called by the specific pronoun they pick. Using ”they” erases their identity
and contributes to discrimination.

Now in hypothetical situation I don’t see how “they“ could be problematic.

I have seen authors default to “she” but mostly in positive and neutral
contexts. Then to “he“ for negative contexts. What I mean is if the
hypothetical context is a about an astronaut flying to Mars it might be a
“she” but if it is a criminal robbing a bank it would be a “he”.

~~~
Izkata
> Now in hypothetical situation I don’t see how “they“ could be problematic.

"They" has gotten an additional meaning, it's one of the picked pronouns
alongside xe/etc, which is why some people consider using it to still be using
the wrong pronoun.

~~~
rdtsc
Hmm. You’re right that does complicate things. In that case I can’t think of
any obvious solution. Perhaps in hypothetical situations just a use random
pronoun generator.

Though in that case, if it used carelessly in a negative context, it might not
have a good outcome and someone might still be offended.

