

US 'in denial' over poor maths standards - NickPollard
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-27442541

======
tokenadult
I read all the comments kindly posted here before mine, and then I read the
fine submitted article. Here I will link to the study "Not Just the Problems
of Other People's Children: U.S. Student Performance in Global Perspective"[1]
that underlies the news report submitted here. The full study report will of
course give you details that a brief news report has no space to provide. It's
good to read a news report from British journalists about education issues
here in the United States, as the British journalists are less likely to hand-
wave away concerns about United States educational performance.

As a response to some comments here, I'll note that I have lived in east Asia
(I am a proficient speaker and reader of Chinese as a second language, and
have lived in Taiwan during two three-year stays since I became an adult) and
can verify that the schools there generally do a better job teaching
mathematics (and also second languages) than the schools in the United States,
at less expense per student. That efficiency in primary and secondary
education lets both students who go on to higher education and students enter
the workforce after secondary education achieve more in their adult pursuits
than many Americans. Children there have childhoods with play and fun, but
then they get to grow up to be adults with actual skills for advancing
themselves.

For comparative rankings of different countries, showing how many more
students in some countries reach high levels of mathematics achievement by
eighth grade, see the very well constructed data chart "Distribution of
Mathematics Achievement" for eighth graders in Exhibit 1.2 of Chapter 1 of the
TIMSS report from the 2011 testing round.[2]

This issue is familiar to Americans like me who have lived overseas and have
learned the local language of another country and have read the math textbooks
available there. Better instruction can produce better educational results--
and for less money besides. The top student issue is illustrated also by
results from the International Mathematical Olympiad[3] and other
international academic competitions. The United States has a huge population
base, and it has many families in which the children are brought up by parents
who are first-generation immigrants who received their own primary and
secondary educations in other countries. (Such children do conspicuously well
in academic competitions in the United States.) And the United States is
wealthy, a heritage from the good governance structure set up by the United
States federal Constitution. But even at that, the United States national team
can be beat at the International Mathematical Olympiad by countries that have
many fewer people and much poorer economies. Some countries have a very
impressive group of top students.

[1]
[http://www.hks.harvard.edu/pepg/PDF/Papers/PEPG14-01_NotJust...](http://www.hks.harvard.edu/pepg/PDF/Papers/PEPG14-01_NotJust.pdf)

[2]
[http://timssandpirls.bc.edu/timss2011/downloads/T11_IR_M_Cha...](http://timssandpirls.bc.edu/timss2011/downloads/T11_IR_M_Chapter1.pdf)

[3] [http://www.imo-official.org/](http://www.imo-official.org/)

------
josephschmoe
In the US, the quality of your math education is determined by where you live
on the community level, usually by property value. Within 10 miles, you can
have both a school that performs on par with Sweden and another that performs
on par with Turkey.

What does this mean? Things are way worse for the poor here than this study
even acknowledges. If you're poor in America, your best chance at a good
education is by raffle.

~~~
at-fates-hands
I totally agree and am depressed that places like inner cities have such a
hard time getting more charter schools and competition that would give these
kids and their families a shot at a decent education.

Is it politics? Teachers unions? Getting good admin people? What's holding
back these places from getting ahead?

As a comparison, my sister lives on the outskirts of a large metro area and
their school has been teaching STEM for almost 10 years now.

~~~
relaytheurgency
>What's holding back these places from getting ahead?

There is no motivation for someone to teach in inner cities beyond a sense of
civic duty. I live in a city with terrible (unaccredited) schools. Students in
those schools are often openly hostile to teachers and faculty. Administration
is often on the verge of a breakdown due to the pressure to "turn things
around." Why would anyone want to teach there? I know I didn't want to.

If you think it's a travesty that talented and bright teachers want to avoid
inner cities then you should do it yourself. That's what I say to anyone who
brings this up. Often I will be told, "But that's where you're needed!"

"So are you," is my response.

~~~
at-fates-hands
This is probably one of the main things I did leave out, which is the
socioeconomic toll of broken families, absentee parents and the lure of drugs
and gang culture.

>>> If you think it's a travesty that talented and bright teachers want to
avoid inner cities then you should do it yourself.

I can't argue with you there.

------
relaytheurgency
I taught high school physics for a semester and the math abilities of these
students (many considered top students) were abysmal. Somehow several of these
students had received As and Bs in Algebra 2 but were unable to transform f =
ma into a = f/m. They also had a very flawed understanding of how to solve
quadratics.

I later realized that the issue is that mathematics is often taught as
procedural. Students are taught a process (a set of steps to follow) that will
take you from A to B. This works very well when you can remember all of the
steps but if you forget one step you will always get the wrong answer. Almost
none of these students could reason abstractly about the nature of the
equations they were looking at. They could only refer to prior experiences
following a sort of algebra recipe.

~~~
alanlewis
Well, surely more standardized testing will fix that right up.

~~~
neurobro
If there is a better way to evaluate educational systems and educators, then
it should become the minimum standard. I.e., it would still be "standardized
testing". I don't know why that phrase became a thought-terminating cliché.

------
noobermin
I think the thing that distresses me the most is that any attempt that has
been made to alleviate the situation (like the common core) has been stamped
"big government" by people who seem to _not_ understand the urgency of this
situation.

I'm out of ideas. What do we do?

EDIT: added a not. Wow did that change what I meant to say.

~~~
jstalin
One size fits all is surely the answer.

~~~
noobermin
The whole point of the common core, from my understanding was to be vague
enough to let local governments decide how best to implement it. They were
trying to avoid "one size fits all."

Having everyone in the same page with regards to an overall standard seems
good in my book.

------
GeneralMayhem
While I am fully aware that the American public education system is far from
excellent, I am always skeptical of reports that laud China, Korea, and Japan
as paragons of math and science instruction. What exactly is being measured
here? Arithmetic and the ability to solve word problems of a few known formats
is not mathematics. I do not want my future children to be calculators, I want
them to be thinkers. There is creativity and beauty in math, and what worries
me is not that it does not exist in the current implementation, but that it
does not exist in the _ideal_ implementation.

Of course, I'm also one of those people who doesn't particularly care whether
a college education prepares me for a job, because that's really not the
point.

See also: Lockhart's Lament (pdf at
[http://www.maa.org/sites/default/files/pdf/devlin/LockhartsL...](http://www.maa.org/sites/default/files/pdf/devlin/LockhartsLament.pdf))

~~~
contravert
This report is based on PISA test results, and you can find some sample
questions here:
[http://www.oecd.org/pisa/test/](http://www.oecd.org/pisa/test/)

I think these questions are quite fair at testing the mathematical abilities
of students. These questions don't simply test mechanical calculations, but
also require applications of mathematical knowledge and insight towards
problem solving.

If you disagree, then can you provide examples for better questions to test
students at their mathematical skill level?

------
skywhopper
There are some major issues with this article, the more I look at it. The
general tone is quite prejudiced--using Turkey, Chile, and Mexico as obviously
terrible comparisons we should be ashamed of. The article also fails to
mention that the two countries the US is ranked between are Sweden and Spain.

There's also no indication of the variation between #1 and #34 on the country
rankings. Are the kids in Mexico 50% dumber than South Koreans? Or 5%?

Finally, is it a shock that there's variation in test results between US
states? To whom?

There's plenty that can be critiqued about American education, but this
article shows a lot of good ways _not_ to do it.

~~~
esbranson
Its a news article, not a research paper. And just because it lacks the depth
of a research article does not necessarily impeach it. A better question would
be "would this information be included in, or be reasonably drawn from, a good
article?"

I think this information _would_ be conclusions that could be reasonably drawn
from a good research article, and therefore I disagree that "this article
shows a lot of good ways _not_ to do it."

And while I agree the general tone is quite prejudiced (using the South as
representative of the US is akin to using Eastern Europe as representative of
the EU) those countries are not terrible comparisons. Most Americans would
admit those countries are not good to be similar to in way of education
achievements, and yet the author does make a good argument that America is
similar to them, and in doing so impeaches Americans view of the success of
their educational achievements.

------
voidlogic
Education is not under Federal control, I live one of those "high performing"
states. Painting this as a US issue is as silly as painting an issue solely
controlled at the national level as an EU issue. I think the BBC's choice of
portraying the US as a rusty bus is offensive as, again, this regional not a
national issue.

I also think the areas named of poor performance often have poor performance
across the board, that is not limited to the subject of mathematics
specificity.

~~~
esbranson
I disagree that the article painted the issue as a national issue. To the
contrary, this is the rare occasion that I see a recognition on the part of
Europeans that the US is composed of 50 states, and that making conclusions
about the EU based only upon information from Romania, Croatia and Poland is
probably ill-advised. It recognizes that states like California are big (being
more populous than all of of Canada). And it recognizes what many Americans
already know: the South is America's Eastern Europe.

------
jmzbond
I'd be curious to see what others think about this question:

There are so many articles that preach the wonders of international math
education in Asian countries, and just as many that attempt to mortify with
the Asian system of rote memorization that kills any creativity or true
problem-solving. Which effect do we think is greater?

Because if the latter, then perhaps focusing just on math is as myopic as
focusing within a country.

------
qwerta
I think US education system is basically broken. Instead of fixing problems
you are arguing who is more privileged. Texas versus California illustrates it
well.

~~~
voidlogic
According to this article it doesn't sound broken in the north. I'm opposed to
nationwide changes as I am fearful it will just mess of the good things we
have going on here.

------
cheshireoctopus
What percentage of the current US workforce actually draws on advanced (even
intermediate) mathematical skills on a day-to-day basis?

I'd wager a guess that most developers on HN don't even touch the stuff.

~~~
tzs
Not very many. You might enjoy the essay "What is Mathematics For?" by
Underwood Dudley [1].

[1]
[http://www.ams.org/notices/201005/rtx100500608p.pdf](http://www.ams.org/notices/201005/rtx100500608p.pdf)

------
marknutter
UK 'in denial' over pluralization of the word 'math'.

~~~
SixSigma
It's not a plural, it's a contraction of mathematics.

Curiously I think Americas still say they study physics.

~~~
marknutter
Do you take Econ 101 in England or Econs 101?

~~~
SixSigma
I was racking my brain trying to think of an another example. It would be Econ
and Home Economics is "Home Ec".

------
graycat
Once again, over again, one more time, beat up on the US over its "rotten"
'education'. Graduate/professional school? Nope. They're talking K-12. Then
they are talking 'averages'. Yup.

This beating up on the US is mostly just fun from public flogging, a scam, a
way to get headlines.

The US tried hard, poured in lots of money, bricks, mortar, etc., and it
didn't work. Details:

Frontline video on efforts of Michelle Rhee in the DC public schools:

    
    
         http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/education-of-michelle-rhee/
    

Transcript

    
    
         http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/education/education-of-michelle-rhee/transcript-35/
    

If the Asians are so good at teaching math, then let them fix the DC public
schools. Wait: Rhee is Asian. Oh, well, try the backup plan.

Okay: 'Control'. Control on country of origin.

I'll put it to you in blunt terms: Essentially the worst schools in the US do
better than the schools in west Africa and Mexico. Some people won't like that
point.

So, I'll give another point: How do the students in Minnesota of Norwegian
descent do compared with the students in Norway?

That is, are we talking "US schools" or country of origin?

Next, for "US math", I have a right to be torqued and offended and I am: I'm a
native born US citizen educated only in the US and hold a Ph.D. in engineering
from one of the best research universities in the world for my research
accomplishments in applied math, complete with theorems and proofs. I've done
just fine in "math", thank you.

For math in Asia? From nearly all I've seen, math in Asia is not so good. I
can think of some good work from Japan, but otherwise, no. For South Korea,
one of their better college math majors came to the US for math grad school
and right away had to conclude that they had learned no 'math' at all in
college in South Korea and, instead, had just done some rote memorization with
zero understanding. Then as a grad student they had to start over essentially
as a freshman college math major.

But articles like the OP keep talking about K-12 'math' where likely they mean
mostly just simple arithmetic; not a biggie.

------
zaphar
Only slightly related to the article actually but when did the pluralized term
math _s_ become a thing. I feel like it had to be recent but I've been
noticing it everywhere lately.

~~~
pessimizer
Commonwealth people generally say maths.

[http://www.word-detective.com/2011/05/math-vs-maths/](http://www.word-
detective.com/2011/05/math-vs-maths/)

~~~
nickff
Not in Canada.

~~~
pessimizer
Looks like it's more accurate to say that the English-speaking world generally
says maths, excepting North Americans.

------
skywhopper
I don't dispute the general findings of the study summarized by the article,
but who's choosing the images that go along? The article opens with a mention
of the "deep South" and is accompanied by a photo of a rusted bus in a field?

The middle picture with the caption "There is a complacency about mainstream
US education standards" shows an anonymous residential street. And the final
picture captioned "Massachusetts has high results by international standards"
shows a gleaming, gated, gold-domed building [Update: turns out its the
Massachusetts State House--that's a fair comparison with a rusty bus in a
Mississippi field].

So kids in Mississippi attend school in rusty old buses, whild kids in
Massachussetts go to pristine palatial academies, I guess? Also, it turns out
there are streets with houses in the US.

~~~
esbranson
I think your comment is a case of rational irrationality.

The theory of rational irrationality holds that people often
choose—rationally—to adopt irrational beliefs because the costs of rational
beliefs exceed their benefits. In this case, the cost of admitting (including
to yourself) that the article's surmise makes a valid point is greater than
you are willing to accept. (Likely related to the denial that the article
discusses.) So you are being irrational, attempting to impeach the article by
drawing ludicrous conclusions from its incidental and irrelevant choice of
picture aids.

Simply: you are being absurd.

