
I worked at Amazon to see if anything's changed - vanilla-almond
http://www.vice.com/en_uk/read/inside-amazon-at-christmas-929
======
rdtsc
My nephew worked for Amazon in Kentucky and during a snowstorm they refused to
let him stay home. He didn't feel it was safe to drive (and it wasn't). They
told him he is fired. Someone even called to apologize later, but he already
found work some other place.

On the "good" part of Amazon at AWS, I had a laughably terrible hiring
experience (I know I've told my story multiple times, sorry). They forgot to
call me back on the scheduled phone interview day, my future manager who was
supposed to interview me wasn't there the day they brought me in, they forgot
about me during lunch, sat in a conference room for an hour, then went
wondering around, thinking, nah, this can't be happening. After that I got a
little snippy with them parroting back leadership principles. And then later
it took them 3 weeks to call back (but at that point I wasn't surprised).

However, I like them as a amazon.com customer. I guess to make things awesome
on the outside, those on the inside have to suffer...

~~~
djtriptych
I want to soften this viewpoint a bit. I had similarly bungled experiences
with both Facebook and Google (eventually got offers from both, accepted at
Google). Missed phone calls, mistaken identity, inter-office communication
problems and more.

It's not a fair reflection of the company at large; recruiting is very often a
shit show for all kinds of reasons.

~~~
stcredzero
_recruiting is very often a shit show for all kinds of reasons_

I never before experienced the kind of rudeness and incompetence during hiring
I had encountered while being interviewed in the Bay Area tech scene.
Interviewers not keeping phone appointments. Interviewers blatantly not
listening. Interviewers basically (incorrectly) implying that I'm lying. I
will observe that the YCombinator companies fared much better than the above,
however. Much, much better!

~~~
bane
I'm on the East Coast, and I've interviewed with a fair number of East Coast
and West Coast companies and the West Coast ones were by far the worst. Google
and Amazon have been fair to middling, but there's been some that were
probably so inept it has to fall under some kind of criminal law somewhere.

~~~
Twirrim
Friend of mine got interviewed by a well known company down in the Bellevue
area of Washington, for a role managing storage stuff, shortly after moving to
the area. They got him in 5 times over a month for interviews with various
people, and eventually about 3-4 weeks after the final interview they offered
him the job.

They seemed very surprised when he laughed and told them they were too late,
he'd got work elsewhere, as if they somehow expected him to sit around on his
arse waiting for the job.

~~~
bane
Yeah, lots of the companies seem to operate like engineers aren't in high
demand virtually everywhere and that they offer some kind of special je-ne-
sais-quoi that will convince qualified people to sit around for months while
they make up their mind.

I can say having been on the hiring-side of various companies for a while,
_most_ East Coast companies can go from looking at an application to hire
inside a couple of weeks if they're slow, inside of a week if they're pretty
well put together and can get enough people for interviews. It just simply
doesn't take 5 interviews and two months to find somebody -- that's just
ineptitude...and those companies' own internal metrics show all the process
and hoops don't make much difference in final employee performance.

------
hoorayimhelping
Skip the overly dramatic Orwellian outrage porn and go straight to the banal
conclusion:

> _What became apparent over my time there was that, whatever the
> dramatisation of previous investigations, working at Amazon is just shit –
> but no more shit than any other mundane, badly-paid job._

~~~
roymurdock
Also note that the article is written by a guy in the UK who is hired for
seasonal warehouse work. Not a middle manager/higher salaried employee as was
the case in the NYT article that sparked the outrage.

~~~
darkerside
Also, at least part of the outrage needs to be directed at the hiring
recruiting agency, not at Amazon itself.

~~~
harry8
Not really. The hiring recruiting agency is acting as an agent for amazon and
amazon are completely and totally responsible for the actions of their agent.

There is no "not us, our contractor" defence for this kind of thing.

------
threatofrain
It's silly to blame Amazon for what we think is immoral behavior, as if we
were going to shame Amazon into decency. Amazon is following the law here. It
is the law which is indecent. We must think not about why Amazon is indecent,
but rather how Amazon is lawful.

In sum, Amazon should be mechanistically compelled into socially harmonious
behavior, not shamed into it.

~~~
outside1234
Taking that point further, this is exactly what you would expect an efficient
firm to do. They are maximizing productivity and minimizing costs within a
regulatory framework. Its the regulatory framework that needs changing if we
want to see broad improvements in the blue collar worker's plight.

Almost any improvement will be at the expense of cheap goods, so get be
prepared to pay for that improvement too. I believe this is the key reason we
never see anything done about immigration in the US or pollution in China: at
the end of the day, we care more about the cheap goods than the workers or
pollution.

~~~
geodel
Absolutely true. That super efficient customer service and package delivery
also comes at cost of low paid workers.

------
kartan
> "At the end of the day, nobody is forcing anyone to work here." This
> erroneous logic justifies a lot of abuses. And it is used as much by
> employers as by employees. This statement eliminates the circumstances that
> make you work there, that can be out of your control. And it is easy to turn
> it around: "If you could choose any job, you will chose that one?". Probably
> not. So there goes all your choosing.

> "I can't quit now, because the cost of getting to the agency for the
> interview and drug test – and getting here today for just five hours' pay –
> means I'll have made a loss." Talking about circumstances this is a bad one.

------
kbart

      "My name is spelt wrong on my badge, mate," I told him
      "Oh, that's fine, nobody cares about your name here anyway; we just need your barcode – that's all." 
    
    

Sounds like something written by G. Orwell.. Still better than sweatshops in
China or 3rd world countries I guess.

~~~
rdlecler1
Oddly enough, While flying back from Shanghai in 2006, the Caucasian woman
next to me had a son that worked on the line in one of their sweatshops and
had done it for over a year. They were from a prettywealthy family that
produced things in China and the son decided he wanted to start at the very
bottom. She said he insisted on sleeping in the dorms, would not take a
special AC unit offered to him, ate with the rest of the workers, and even had
a girlfriend. I asked how long he was going to do it for and she said she
didn't know. That he seemed quite happy having such a simple and hard working
life.

Also a quote to keep in mind from Chris's Rock, "If Bill Gates woke up
tomorrow wit Oprah's money he'd kill himself."

~~~
CaptSpify
It's easy when you have a fall-back plan though. Obviously I know nothing
about him or their family, but I'm guessing he could just quit, and rely on
their resources while he looked for a new job.

A lot of people don't have that option

~~~
RankingMember
Yep, there's a world of difference between being rich and working a shitty job
for the fun of it and working that same job to survive.

------
Practicality
When this "job" is replaced by robots, everyone will be better for it. Of
course, these people will need to be provided for, and there are several
solutions to discuss, but this job screams for automation.

~~~
CaptSpify
I have no idea what the people in the warehouse do, so forgive my ignorance,
but wouldn't this be a prime spot to test out drones?

I'm guessing if you are in an enclosed area, the air-space rules that Amazon
keeps fighting don't apply?

~~~
Practicality
One of my previous jobs we automated a warehouse using a crane and mini-RVs
that drove around a picked up pallets. The whole warehouse only* required a
couple of fork truck drivers to load the trucks and that was only because of
legal restrictions on loading trucks with an automated conveyor.

* It also required 2-3 just out of high-school "technicians" making about $15/hour who oversaw the whole operation as well as a "maintenance" crew of about 3 people (to repair machines). I think there were a couple of managers thrown in as well. Still, much cheaper than the 100 employees we replaced and I am pretty sure those employees were happier doing something else.

~~~
karambahh
I can see how you did if the picked products were of similar weight/size and
stored in cardboard packaging, but did it also work for "flexible" items such
as clothing or for instance a blanket packed into plastic?

AFAIK picking is very hard to automate because it's very hard to match the
dexterity and eye-hands coordination of a human being.

[edit: grammar]

~~~
Practicality
They had to be standardized, so this only worked for particular products. You
can start with a sorting system that supplies different weights and textures
to different systems.

------
jordigh
> In fact, everything was completely by the book.

Huh? According to the same article, the book said that he should have been
given a copy of his contract and a daily list of goals. The book also said
that there should be a careful point system to judge employee performance, not
"late twice and you're sacked". Furthermore, are 11-hour shifts really by the
book? Does the book say three of those hours have to be paid overtime?

~~~
asuffield
> Furthermore, are 11-hour shifts really by the book?

Yes.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Working_Time_Directive](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Working_Time_Directive)
is the relevant set of rules. The key one is "there must daily rest of 11
consecutive hours per 24-hour period", which an 11-hour shift complies with.

> Does the book say three of those hours have to be paid overtime?

No. They're just paid time like any other shift.

(Before somebody jumps up to wave their hands about opting out of the working
time directive: as noted on that page, there is only one rule that you can opt
out of, and that's the rule about a 48-hour maximum working week. There is no
opt out for any of the other rules.)

------
6stringmerc
Having been a seasonal employee on several occasions, this article does a good
job of portraying the casual attitude large companies seem to take with
expendible labor forces. I've seen it first-hand even in smaller situations
(ex: an indie movie theater for summer staffing), and while most were a bit
better organized (better forms, personalised off-site testing), it's still
pretty understandable. If Amazon isn't sympathetic to the transportation
plight of the workers, I don't think I can fault them - that's pretty common
for most jobs in my experience.

It's definitely a personal thing, but after all sorts of job roles, I'd
probably think the quiet, repetitve tasks and 'timing' aspect of the hourly
job actually kind of okay. Gives me time in my head without having to make
small talk. Or deal with bad customers. I guess what I'm saying is that I'd
still rather take the Amazon job than one where I had to work directly with
customers in service or retail. Especially if said customers trend toward
elderly...sure, moving boxes in a hurry can be stressful, but I'd prefer that
to trying to explain/sell to a confused, sometimes impatiently angry monied
elderly person, because boxes lack emotional outbursts.

~~~
nashashmi
I always wonder what causes people to be the people they are. It almost always
ends up being "industry standard" practices.

Time for disruption?

------
tremguy
"But it was nothing like the shops I've worked in before, obviously, as there
are no customers in sight. This opens up Amazon to a whole new world of
efficiency: no smiling faces, pleasant décor, snazzy lighting or a pretence
that anyone's happy to be there."

Well, to soften this up a bit, this is what it is like at every warehouse in
the world. Of course it isn't going to be anything like a nice tidy
whitecollar office job. The article sounds a bit like it was written by
someone with no prior experience with this type of work.

------
blazespin
I think I've probably been approached by Amazon recruiters about 20 times,
each time asking them not to do so again. They still keep emailing me on
linked in though.

------
bluedino
At the core of operations, Amazon is no different than Walmart.

~~~
chrisra
I'm not sure about warehouse conditions, but from my experience in the home
office, this sounds completely untrue. I'm not going back, but there were a
ton of friendly people there. They treated interns really well, I think. My
coworkers were a really good bunch.

~~~
daxfohl
FYI you left no way of determining whether you meant Walmart or Amazon or ....

------
bane
I think what's important to think about here is how the type of company we
think of Amazon as (a tech company) informs our belief in how the work
conditions should be. HN isn't exactly full of articles about how terrible the
work conditions at Macy's or the local trash pickup service are, and that's
because we think of retail or sanitation as different kinds of work. If we
think of Amazon as a big warehouse fulfillment company or a retail department
store, our expectations drop and Amazon starts to look more like the other
companies in those spaces.

Instead we should realize what Amazon is (or overlaps with), and get upset
about poor work conditions in the entire sector.

------
TazeTSchnitzel
> my recruiter, Angniezka,

Presumably Angnie _s_ zka?

~~~
Twirrim
It can be spelt both ways. You can even spell it Agnieszka or Agniezka :)

~~~
kgabis
Nope, there's only one spelling: Agnieszka.

------
alttab
_What became apparent over my time there was that, whatever the dramatisation
of previous investigations, working at Amazon is just shit – but no more shit
than any other mundane, badly-paid job._

 _Since there have been bosses and profits there have always been shit jobs,
and until we 're replaced by more efficient robots, they'll still be there for
us to complain about._

This sums it all up nicely.

------
tekt
My first thought was that someone got hired as an under cover developer, which
would have been kind of a novelty. Still interesting read though. Anyone heard
anything about the work environment for developers recently?

------
js8
I think it's great articles like that get posted here - it's a window to
employment conditions that techies would never accept. It's a good reminder of
privilege.

~~~
marknutter
> it's a window to employment conditions that techies would never accept.

I absolutely would accept those employment conditions if I didn't have any
other options and needed to make money to survive. I would also spend my free
time learning a skill so I could get a better job at some point in the future.

> It's a good reminder of privilege.

It's not a matter of privilege, it's a matter of ability. In tech more than
any other field, because you don't need a college degree to get a good paying
job. You just need to have the desire and ambition to learn.

~~~
kalleboo
I'm a pretty proficient programmer, but I would never have gotten there if I
had to study after working 12.5 hour shifts all week - I'd still be working in
the warehouse today. That's why I recognize I had privilege growing up in a
country with paid-for higher education and parents who encouraged me to
attend.

I also support such social measures for others as I feel it would be
economically inefficient if I was still working a menial job instead of what I
do now just because I don't have enough desire and ambition to work that much
on top of studies.

~~~
mahyarm
The amount of 'free time privilege' required to become a developer is less
than the amount of 'privilege' required to become almost any other well paying
profession.

With software, you need a cheap computer, access to the internet and time to
teach yourself. That can cost about $300 and $10/month in many places.

With almost anything else you need all of the above plus a college or other
formal education. The barrier to getting any sort of college education, not to
mention even getting admitted to one, is far higher. You usually need
thousands per month and 20 hours/week of scheduled time to pay for the costs
of college.

There are also other minimum wage jobs you can apply for with better
conditions, like coffee shops, restaurants, gas stations, retail stores and so
on. And in developed countries, you have the option of saving up for your
computer with your minimum wage job and then going on welfare.

~~~
mentat
You need the time to teach yourself. There are hard limits on the amount of
physical and mental work a person can do, especially if the mental work
requires significant concentration. I don't see you taking account of that at
all.

~~~
afarrell
To emphasize mentat's point, you need focused time where your mind is rested
and alert. This requires good, regularly-scheduled sleep. This requires
nutritionally complete food (though soylent has made this much easier). This
probably requires that you not be stressed out by fear of violence or
eviction.

Also, don't underestimate the value of an educational environment. You can
spend a lot of time banging your head against the wall if you don't have an
effective way to reach out for help. A mailing list or IRC channel is only
useful if you have the skill and focus to compose your question coherently.

~~~
xiaoma
I mostly lived off of cornflakes, coconut water, occasional fruits and a
weekly chicken binge (or other food from a Chinese butcher shop) when I was
becoming a programmer. It took very little time and cost less than a third of
what Soylent does.

I used a book called _Learn to program_ , by Chris Pine. There's a free
version online. After that, I did some stuff on code school.

