
Dvorak Users Oppose Qwerty Layouts on Smart Phones - robg
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB125409298496044871.html?mod=WSJ_hpp_MIDDLENexttoWhatsNewsSecond
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chadaustin
Wow, that article makes Dvorak users seem like raving lunatics. I switched
because I'm diagnosed with repetitive stress injuries and Dvorak helped a
great deal. (I'm actually a bit slower with Dvorak than I was with QWERTY.)

But if you're doing most of your typing on a smartphone, you'll quickly have
more pressing RSI issues...

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chancho
I have no doubt that Dvorak works better for you, but I wonder if it's not so
much the layout that makes a difference, but rather learning to type all over
again while paying close attention to your hands allowed you to break bad
habits.

I took a few typing classes in school as a kid, but of course didn't pay
attention. Like a lot of people I learned qwerty by osmosis, not through
proper training, and so I accumulated all sorts of terrible habits: reaching
across, shifting with the same hand, etc. I got to be really fast but this was
just amplifying the damage. Right about the time things were getting really
painful I picked up vim. For me at least, it wasn't so much that vim (or
Dvorak or whatever) really makes all the difference, it's just that it forces
a clean break with your old muscle memory. And because the pain is the reason
you're willing to put in the effort to re-learn, you're damn sure to learn it
properly this time. That's all it took for me. No pain since, still on a
standard rectangular qwerty keyboard.

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al3x
I've been on Dvorak for a while now. Honestly, typing QWERTY on my iPhone
isn't particularly difficult, as the muscle memory for the tiny on-screen
keyboard seems to be different than that of my laptop keyboard. But it would
be nice for Apple to offer a Dvorak option.

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zefhous
Agreed. I type in Dvorak and have an iPhone. The brain doesn't see desktop and
mobile typing in the same way. I actually type faster and much more naturally
in QWERTY on the iPhone than on a proper keyboard.

I'd love to see Apple ship a Dvorak layout with the iPhone, but I think one of
the big barriers is how the iPhone keyboard is normally laid out.

Dvorak has two extra letters on the bottom row and more punctuation on top. In
QWERTY they get rid of the punctuation on the bottom row and put shift and
delete in the extra space.

Look how ugly — and how much less usable — this is:
<http://kasperowski.com/2009/03/iphone-dvorak-for-real.html>

To do it properly they would have to move shift and delete to the top row...

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chasingsparks
I used Dvorak for two years but got tired of the mental context switching when
working on other people's computers. That being said, after a while it
definitely was faster. From that I learned something important: programmers
rarely need to type fast.

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stcredzero
_From that I learned something important: programmers rarely need to type
fast._

Add a _good_ in there.

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DanielStraight
There's plenty of things smart phones don't provide. If you want one of them,
make it yourself. If you can't, get a more open platform. If you don't know
how to program, pay someone who does. I don't think there's a device in
existence that has every feature I want. Companies don't have time to put in
everyone's pet feature. Your two options are 1) get over it and 2) do
something about it.

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fossuser
<http://colemak.com/> Colemak is the only layout specifically designed for
modern day computer keyboards.

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jmillikin
Not quite -- there are plenty of other layouts designed for modern use, some
of which were designed via genetic algorithm:
<[http://mkweb.bcgsc.ca/carpalx/?full_optimization>](http://mkweb.bcgsc.ca/carpalx/?full_optimization>).
Colemak is, however, one of the best I've seen which maintains most of the
"standard" keyboard shortcuts.

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stanley
Has anyone had experience switching from Dvorak to Colemak?

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ZeroGravitas
Dvorak on the iPhone makes no sense to me.

I touch type Dvorak and I have no idea what the keyboard layout looks like. I
use standard QWERTY keycaps. My fingers know, so I don't have to.

On the iPhone you're not using the home row and touch typing, you're peck
typing either with one finger, or two thumbs on a soft keyboard that can
reconfigure at will and guess what you're typing, but that has no physical
feedback on position. Clearly something other than Qwerty or Dvorak, something
designed for this technology is the way forward.

I think studies have shown that for simple touchscreen or stylus keyboards a
simple A-Z grid outperforms Qwerty. I'm hoping the Android approach lets some
innovation happen here.

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jsz0
With software keyboards it would make sense to offer alternative keyboard
layouts. For physical keyboards the cost of producing different keypads is
probably just too high for the small number of people using English non-QWERTY
layouts. If someone wants to pay the premium though more power to them. The
last time I took a typing test about a year ago I was doing 160WPM on QWERTY
so I cannot accept there's any inherent limitation in the design that prevents
fast input.

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stcredzero
Das Keyboard manufactures its _high end_ keyboard with both QWERTY and Dvorak
layouts!

<http://www.daskeyboard.com/>

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likpok
Weren't Das Keyboard just a spraypainted and heavily marked up version of
another keyboard?

I remember someone (on HN?) saying this.

~~~
daskeyboard
Hi! I"m Andy, the Community Manager at Das Keyboard. All of our keyboards are
manufactured by us with all new materials, including the Cherry key switches.
We hold ourselves to a very high standard of quality that our customers have
come to expect. If you have any questions, I'd be happy to answer them, please
just let me know. Thanks! community AT daskeyboard DOT com

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ars
I tried Dvorak, but didn't like it.

I don't type with my fingers on the home row, but rather floating over the
keyboard.

With querty the keys are far enough apart that I switch between hands, so
while one hand is pressing one key, the other is getting the second one ready.

With dvorak I would sort of mentally "jam", since you can't get the next
keystroke ready while typing the first.

I know I don't type in a conventional way, but I type very fast.

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steadicat
That's odd. Dvorak is specifically designed to make you alternate between the
two hands, so that one hand can get ready to hit the next key while the other
is typing the previous one.

This is achieved mainly by having all the vowels on the left hand, and the
most used consonants on the right. Natural languages take care of ensuring a
good alternation between consonants and vowels.

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juliusseizure
I've never tried DVORAK but from what I know, QWERTY was specifically designed
so mechanical typewriters don't jam due the speed of typing. And if true, this
reason alone means DVORAK is faster. Anyone can confirm or debunk this theory
I've heard?

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jmillikin
QWERTY _was_ designed to prevent jams, but did so by physical separation of
the keys, not by slowing the typist. In fact, separating keys _increases_
typing speed by distributing the load over both hands -- try typing "fewer
seats are west" to see how annoying placing letters together is.

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baddox
I think "fewer seats are west" is great fun to type, and not all that slowing.
I also like typing "hardware stores are great".

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litewulf
I use Colemak, and I find that I can type on smartphones relatively easily.

I think when you switch to Colemak or Dvorak you probably want some base
competence with QWERTY still just so you don't look like an idiot when you use
other people's computers or whatever.

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msluyter
I've been a Dvorak user for a while, and it often feels like swimming
upstream. Good to see the issue getting a little attention.

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stanley
Would anyone be interested in developing an Android application to switch the
keyboard layout?

