

Ask HN: Berlin - costs of living, python jobs? - zalew

Hi HN<p>I'm from Warsaw and as Germany is opening market for Polish workers the upcoming year, I'm considering Berlin as a destination - been there, love the city, like German people.<p>Could you give me some info:<p>1. cost of life and earnings, basically the same as in this topic http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1778185 (no Berlin there)<p>2. a quick view at the scene - are there any interesting companies, startups, etc. doing python?<p>3. popular job boards, message boards, where to look at? see nothing at djangogigs<p>tx
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maxklein
There are a lot of jobs in tech, but they mostly seem to be small companies
trying to pay little. So to get by at 15€ a hour, you'll probably find a lot
of offers.

Accommodation is cheap, I pay 400€ for 50sqm, a friend of mine pays 550 for
70sqm with 3 rooms. That's in a central part of town. In general, between 320
- 600 you can find a pretty reasonable place for a person to live alone.

Döner costs €2.50, a chinese meal off a stall costs €3.00, a restaurant meal
in some small restaurant 5€ or 6€, in some normal restaurant maybe 9€ to 12€.
Beer costs €3 in most clubs and bars, cocktails €4.50 to €8.00.

Transport costs €70 a month for the train? Not so sure about this. Parking is
easy on the outskirts, but the very center of town you usually need to pay in
a parkhouse.

Lots of english speaking people, and it's very popular for euro-immigrants
(france, england, spain, etc), so a very western europe scene, and very easy
to get by on english only.

Berlin generally has a bad work climate (I've heard people say), so if I were
you, I'd apply for 10-20 jobs from Warsaw, then come over, stay a week in a
ferienwohnung, do all the interviews and if you find one you like, move here.
Moving without a job could put you under undue pressure. Warsaw is just 4
hours by train, is it not?

I believe there are a lot of _young_ companies in Berlin, so I don't think the
Airbus style jobs are really available here.

~~~
strayer
For the Airbus style of jobs perhaps you should consider Hamburg (similar
costs, much smaller) because there you could find... Airbus. Not so
international atmosphere, though, although the harbour is major local
industry.

An added bonus is the local beach over the Elba :-)

------
maryrosecook
Ableton, the company I work for, are based in Berlin and are looking for
Python devs: <http://www.ableton.com/jobs> It's a really nice place to work,
and the pay is OK for Berlin.

Great summary of cost of living and tech scene from maxklein. You can live
very cheaply here, if you work at it. Some bars serve a half-litre of beer for
1€, some reasonable apartments can be got for 120€ a month if you can live
with coal-fired heating.

The other tech company I know well is SoundCloud. They are great. They are
mostly Ruby-based, but they're expanding the technology they use rapidly at
the moment, so they might be flexible.

Good luck: Berlin is a fantastic place to live.

~~~
radiothom
Yep, SoundCloud is great (so is Ableton!). While we are ruby-based at
SoundCloud, we are definitely expanding and open to various backgrounds! So
definitely visit the jobs page if you're interested: soundcloud.com/jobs.

Agree with Mary - Berlin is a fantastic place to live and very affordable in
many areas. Great city with a growing start-up scene!

~~~
rdouble
How many vacation days? I have relevant experience for SoundCloud (and also
use and like Ableton) but I've recently decided I should probably try to visit
my family more often.

~~~
deets
Around 25, which is common in Germany.

------
BvS
Ramen-style about 600€/month (living with a roommate, prepare your own meals
-> maybe it could be even lower if don't go out at all, don't buy new clothes,
ride a bike instead of public transportation... )

Have your own space, go out sometimes, take cab once in a while... about
1.200€+/month (obviously open end).

Add at least another 130€/month for health insurance.

Unfortunately I don't know about any python gigs but if you are familiar with
RoR, let me know... As a freelancer (RoR) you should get something between
300€ - 800€ / day (deepending on your experience).

 _Update_ : For Startup-Jbs you might want to check out: [http://www.deutsche-
startups.de/startups-jobs/stellenangebot...](http://www.deutsche-
startups.de/startups-jobs/stellenangebote) (not only programming and not only
Berlin).

Another place would be: <http://www.jobisjob.de/berlin/ruby/jobs> (Rubyjobs in
Berlin)

You might also consider to get an (free) account at www.xing.com (kind of
Germanys LinkedIn which is used by many recruiters).

If you would consider/interested in working for a non-profit (including non-
profit pay ;-(, please check out www.betterplace.org or www.spenden.de (the
later will relaunch soon). They are/will be done with RoR and are sometimes
looking for programmers (mostly freelancers). If interested I might be able to
help here.

~~~
robin_reala
Why health insurance? Surely the OP is covered in the EU if they get an EHIC?
Or does that not apply for a permanent move?

~~~
maryrosecook
No, it does not. If you pay taxes here, you have to have health insurance. For
a permanent employee, this is about 14% of your salary. All in, I pay about a
third of my income in tax (which includes health insurance).

~~~
robin_reala
Is that a cross-Europe thing then? My fiancée is Swedish but living in the UK
with me; as far as I know she doesn’t pay any extra tax or have extra health-
insurance.

 _googles_

------
ig1
Berlin is fairly cheap, cheaper than any other major city in western europe at
least. Accommodation prices can vary widely, they can go from as little as 200
euros/months for a studio on the outskirts. I was paying 800 euros/month for a
large one-bed flat in fairly central east berlin (P-Berg).

Lots of startups, probably some doing Python, not sure who off the top of my
head. Most recruitment in Berlin seems to be done via social networks rather
than via job boards, so your best bet might be to get involved with the
startup community and get some leads from there.

~~~
Uchikoma
"Most recruitment in Berlin seems to be done via social networks rather than
via job boards."

Most hiring I've done in Berlin is via job boards.

~~~
sudont
Do you hire mainly in Germany? I'm curious about working abroad for a while
(Australian work holiday, mainly) and am interested in the the opinions on
hiring a US citizen.

~~~
Uchikoma
I hire mainly in Germany - Berlin to be specific. So sorry, I haven't any
opinions on hiring abroad.

------
fbailey
1\. cost depends on your location - central is no longer cheap 2\. there are a
lot of startups but I'm not sure which one is developing in python

try this map to find startups
<http://www.businesslocationcenter.de/de/B/iii/1/seite11.jsp>

there seems to be a django Berlin group
<http://groups.google.com/group/django-berlin>

~~~
Uchikoma
Depends on what you mean with cheap.

------
shanked
Somewhat related...

As opposed to Berlin specifically, how should an American software engineer
get a job in a different country? I'd like to experience different cultures
and I'd like to move to another country (after finding a job) but I'm not sure
how I should go about doing it.

Initially, I think western Europe is the most ideal place since I do not know
any other languages, some place where many people spoke English would be
ideal.

If anyone has any tips for how an American (with no foreign contacts, or
fluency in other languages) can land a job in a western European country, I'd
be very interested in hearing them.

~~~
kablamo
Singapore. English speaking. Modern clean safe beautiful city. Mostly banking
and finance here. Something like 2% unemployment, 15% economic growth this
year. Lots of Westerners (and Indians, Chinese, Malay, Phillipinos,
Indonesians, etc hugely diverse). Little India, Chinatown. Very easy to get a
work visa. Low taxes. Tropical island. Can be as cheap as $50 to fly to Bali
and a weekend of surfing. All of Southeast Asia a few hours flight away.

On the bad side:

* Freaking hot. You will get used to it after about 8 months.

* Expensive apartments. Not as bad as SF or NYC, but getting up there.

* Despite being a decent size city, it often has a conservative, small town atmosphere.

* Asia loves status and brand names and leans towards Java and .Net and industrial programming and tends to look down on scripting languages

Hong kong is probably good to look at too. Bigger more interesting city but
like everywhere, has its drawbacks too of course.

~~~
poet
Singapore is also a police state, if you care about such things. Some choice
quotes from the US Department of State:

 _Singapore has a mandatory death penalty for many narcotics offenses._

 _Singapore police have the authority to compel both residents and non-
residents to submit to random drug analysis._

 _There are no jury trials in Singapore. Judges hear cases and decide
sentencing._

[http://travel.state.gov/travel/cis_pa_tw/cis/cis_1017.html#c...](http://travel.state.gov/travel/cis_pa_tw/cis/cis_1017.html#criminal_penalties)

~~~
kablamo
Its true there is not as much political freedom in Singapore as there is in
the West. Its also true there is not as much economic freedom in the West as
there is in Singapore.

Singapore's judicial system is consistently ranked in the top 2 in Asia and
usually in the top 10 globally, often ahead of places like the US and Germany.
[http://app.subcourts.gov.sg/Data/Files/File/Research/issue29...](http://app.subcourts.gov.sg/Data/Files/File/Research/issue29.pdf)

I'm an American who has lived in Singapore almost 2 years. The Singapore
government delivers good, fair, cost efficient government, a high standard of
living, and is responsive to citizens. This is incomprehensible to Westerners
who have been taught to believe that democracy is the only system that works.
Western democracy is great and does a decent job. I believe Singapore's
government is better in many or most cases. Here is a list of ways that
Singapore's government is better than most or all Western governments:

\- easier to start a business

\- lower unemployment

\- higher economic growth

\- less corruption (private and government)

\- lower, simpler taxes

\- less paperwork (everything is online)

\- less crime

~~~
poet
The People's Action Party has a long history of suing political opponents for
defamation and bankrupting them with judgements handed down by the courts.
This contradicts your claims that (1) Singapore has a good judicial system and
(2) Singapore's government has less corruption. To be frank I don't think you
have the correct picture of Singapore's government at all and you've been
taken in like so many others. Order and peace in Singapore is bought by
corruption and intimidation behind the scenes.

The following essay on the subject is worth your time:
[http://muse.jhu.edu/journals/journal_of_democracy/v006/6.3br...](http://muse.jhu.edu/journals/journal_of_democracy/v006/6.3br_seow.html).

~~~
kablamo
I accept Singapore is not a democracy and has less political free speech than
the West. That doesn't make it corrupt. Singapore is ranked the 5th least
corrupt country in the world. [http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/gov_cor-
government-corrupt...](http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/gov_cor-government-
corruption).

The PAP sues its opponents for defamation. Has your government ever done
anything worse?

You mention one small piece of the pie of justice: political free speech. What
about property rights, banking law, business law, immigration law, tax law,
criminal law, etc? I think you need to show a much broader pattern of abuse to
say the judicial system isn't fair.

I'm actually a libertarian. Its taken some time for me to reconcile that with
my support of Singapore. Basically, I believe Singapore is more free than most
Western countries although sometimes in different ways.

You can quibble about minor issues, but in my experience the government
delivers good service, safe streets, a growing economy, and opportunity to the
vast majority of Singaporeans.

~~~
poet
I'm not sure how you think anyone could take you seriously when you call the
systemic suppression of political opponents a "minor issue".

~~~
kablamo
I assume you feel the suppression of political opponents is a major issue
because it causes a government to become corrupt, abusive, and make bad
decisions without the accountability that comes from criticism and
competition. I agree.

But Singapore has made good decisions and hasn't been abusive or corrupt. (No
government is without sin or without mistakes, so I mean Singapore isn't
abusive or corrupt compared to the US and Europe.) Their economy has boomed,
their standard of living has risen dramatically in a short period of time.
Aren't you curious about how they did it?

Political systems have evolved and improved throughout history and will
continue to do so. Western democracy is not the best government that will ever
exist on Earth.

------
sambe
I had the option of moving to Berlin or finding something else, and whilst I
liked some aspects of Berlin, eventually decided not to move there. Of course,
everyone is different but the relevant points to the question are:

1) whilst it is cheap - and rent is included in that statement - it is also
big and low density. I felt that I wouldn't want to live away from the
central, fashionable areas as the rest of the city feels a bit deserted.
Living there probably adds 500EUR/month to your costs.

2) most of the "entrepreneurial" action seems to be in the arts. I didn't see
lots of technology and/or international companies e.g. if things don't work
out for you.

I have a friend from Berlin running a technoloogy company who loves it there
though - and he seems to be able to hire a reasonable amount of talent. And
some people don't mind the commute/quiet life as much as me.

~~~
maryrosecook
Point (1) does not fit with my experience here at all. Kreuzberg is central,
cheap and very lively.

~~~
cageface
What's a rough range for web/python programmer salaries in Berlin. Any idea?

------
pdelgallego
I lived in Germany for a couple of years, most of the time in Hamburg, but I
used to go Berlin quite often.

The cost of living in Berlin is very variable. I love Kreuzberg, you have good
and cheap options to dinner for ~10 euros (e.g around Görlitzer Bahnhof you
have some good vietnamese and indian resturants). The rent should be around
250 - 350 E a room. In east berlin you can find cheaper pelaces to live in.

I dont know about job post, but just contact the Berlin Python User Group. I
am sure they can give you some good advices about it. The mailing list dont
look very acttive, but I am sure is still the best place to start
(<http://starship.python.net/mailman/listinfo/python-berlin>)

------
Uchikoma
I can only write from my perspective, 110qm are around 950 EUR including
heating, but this is a more expensive part of town (not the most expensive
though). Fairly cheap compared to other large cities in Germany.

There are many tech jobs, most companies are hiring.

As a developer you might make 35-60k EUR a year, depending on the company and
your skills.

Transport is currently 72 EUR a month.

Meals are around 5 EUR for lunch, 10 EUR or above in the evening. Pizza is
below 10 EUR. Beer is around 3 EUR.

~~~
Uchikoma
I might add: Freelancer is 500 EUR to 1000 EUR (and above) a day depending on
your skills (obviously ;-)

~~~
piotrSikora
I have to ask... Doing what exactly can get you constantly 500-1000 EUR per
day? I know a lot of good programmers that earn that much per month, so this
daily estimate (especially for a freelancer) seems way too high to me.

~~~
Uchikoma
Programming Java and C#, database development etc. It usually is not for more
than some months, people would usually negotiate a lower price if the duration
of the project/work is longer.

~~~
piotrSikora
Oops, I totally forgot about this.

Thanks for sharing your experience... It differs a lot from mine.

------
yule
Regarding where to look for jobs, I'd suggest stepstone.de, heise.de/jobs and
also xing.com (a LinkedIn-like site with more german users - the Python and
Django groups also have a dedicated forum for jobs).

