
Apple pulls Nokia’s Withings health product line from stores - electic
https://9to5mac.com/2016/12/23/like-bose-apple-pulls-nokias-withings-health-product-line-from-stores-in-wake-of-patent-dispute/
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jdpedrie
> Apple hasn’t pulled the Withings apps from the App Store yet but it probably
> wouldn’t hurt to download them if you think you will need them…just in case.

Pulling the app from the app store strikes me as a whole different ballgame
from removing the product from the apple store. Seems like that would cross a
line from fairly normal tactics into essentially bricking devices for a large
segment of customers.

~~~
matco11
Technically, it would not brick the devices, because installed apps would
continue to work. Only new installations for newly purchased devices would not
be possible.

Nevertheless, I would agree it would be a stronger/harsher manouver by Apple.

Would it be a proportionate action to what Nokia is/has been doing? Well,
maybe. Reading about Apple's side of the story, it seems Nokia has already
crossed more than one line into harsh/unfair legal/business tactics. ...So,
certainly it's hard to predict what Apple is going to do.

The interesting thing here is that if you assume that Withings is making
$50-60mm/year in revenues (my guess - based on the $192mm sale price earlier
this year on one side, and the estimated number of app downloads and the price
of their devices), spread across so many devices, they are probably little/not
profitable and little/not cash-flow generating.

So, if the assumption above is correct, Withings would be a
small/insignificant casualty for the Nokia side, in the context of this
patents war, where much bigger money is at stake.

~~~
jdpedrie
> Only new installations for newly purchased devices would not be possible.

That's a good point, and definitely true. That is probably even worse for
Nokia though. If existing users can continue relatively unaffected, but new
customers are essentially out of luck, the platform is totally choked off from
any growth. Without the app, I don't see how they could do anything other than
stop selling the product.

I'm not familiar with the particulars of the dispute between Apple and Nokia,
but it's pretty scary how wide ranging the collateral damage from this sort of
thing could be.

~~~
msabalau
"totally choked off from growth" among iPhone users--other smartphones exist.

~~~
st3v3r
They do, but the iPhone is one of the prime user bases of this kinda thing.

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jsjohnst
It's easy to cry foul here (and I would be too if it got pulled from the
AppStore), but Apple can freely choose the products it stocks in its retail
stores. Try suing Target, Walmart, Best Buy, etc, especially over a patent
dispute. I assure you they'd likely do the same thing.

Also, in a way, Apple is hurting themselves doing this. For each sale of
Withings in the store, they make a significant margin on the sale. I don't
know the exact number, but I'm sure based on the industry norms for a similar
product it's likely in the 25-35% range, if not slightly higher.

~~~
neves
This isn't a fair comparison. Apple has a monopoly in the store of iOS
devices. In Android you can authorize different stores, in Apple walled
garden, you can't.

It is hard of find an equivalent metaphor in the real world. Maybe if you
decided to live in the USA, them the government forbids you to buy something
you like because they are in a commercial dispute with another country. Would
you move just because of this?

It won't take long to get to the moment when Apple have more influence in your
life than the government of the country you live. And you won't be able to
vote them out.

~~~
xoa
> _This isn 't a fair comparison. Apple has a monopoly in the store of iOS
> devices. In Android you can authorize different stores, in Apple walled
> garden, you can't._

I think you've gotten confused here (or didn't read the article): this is not
software we're talking about, this is _hardware_. The physical hardware
products have been pulled from the Apple Store, both online and retail, not
the supporting software apps in the _App Store_. And Apple has no monopoly
whatsoever on retail or online equivalents, Withings are still readily
available at a variety of outlets and of course on all the online ones, Amazon
etc. So as long as it stays like that there is no issue at all. Particularly
for Apple retail stock space is extremely valuable and precious and it's
perfectly reasonable (and in fact necessary) for them to pick and choose what
to stock for a variety of reasons.

On the other hand if at some point they extended that to the App Store as well
or took any other actions whatsoever to use their artificial iOS platform
technical control as a club (such as trying to make Withings devices cease to
function with iOS devices) then yes, that would be really bad. Not sure
whether it'd be illegal or not but it should be (although I think it should be
legally required to hardware owners to be offered a root key on their devices
too, but that's another discussion). At least for now though hardware stocking
decisions alone are not a cause for concern.

------
mtw
That's a shame because the other major alternative is Fitbit products such as
Fitbit Aria or Fitbit smartwatches. And we know how Apple feels about Fitbit

~~~
expat39
Well, Withings has all kinds of products but I wouldn't say they are a major
player in any of them, in each product category there are players that are
bigger and/or better: Fitness trackers:

\- Apple Watch

\- Fitbit.com

\- [https://explore.garmin.com/en-US/vivo-
fitness/](https://explore.garmin.com/en-US/vivo-fitness/)

\- [https://misfit.com/](https://misfit.com/)

Scales:

\- fitbit.com

\- [https://www.getqardio.com/qardiobase-smart-scale-iphone-
andr...](https://www.getqardio.com/qardiobase-smart-scale-iphone-android/)

\- [https://www.underarmour.com/en-
us/healthbox](https://www.underarmour.com/en-us/healthbox)

Home cameras they come behind:

\- nest.com

\- canary.is

\-
[https://www.netatmo.com/product/security/welcome](https://www.netatmo.com/product/security/welcome)

Blood pressure cuff:

\- [https://www.getqardio.com/qardioarm-blood-pressure-
monitor-i...](https://www.getqardio.com/qardioarm-blood-pressure-monitor-
iphone-android/)

Sleep monitor:

\- [http://www.beddit.com/](http://www.beddit.com/)

\- [https://hello.is/](https://hello.is/)

\-
[http://www.resmed.com/us/en/consumer/s-plus.html](http://www.resmed.com/us/en/consumer/s-plus.html)

Thermometer:

\- [https://www.kinsahealth.com/](https://www.kinsahealth.com/)

------
atomical
Are people using the Nokia Here app? I have it on my phone, but I haven't used
it for navigation. At one point I was looking into experimenting with pulling
the 3d building models.

~~~
neves
It is excellent. Its offline navigation is way better than Google. A always
use it when I travel to another country.

------
kyriakos
how's this helping Apple?

~~~
asdfologist
"Apple Retail Stores and Online Store represent a significant chunk of online
sales and Apple apparently feels that it can use it as a strong arm bargaining
chip in these types of negotiations."

~~~
kyriakos
I know I read the article but it does feel like a childish reaction.
Considering Apple sub contracts companies like Samsung with which they had
legal issues in the past (or they still do not sure) and yet they continued
cooperating.

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y04nn
How this is not an abuse of a dominant position? Nokia is suing Apple, so this
is not Nokia that break an Apple patent where that would have been legit to
remove those product from stores.

~~~
mcphage
Because Apple does not have a dominant position of retail stores—which it
would need to have in order to absuse it.

~~~
y04nn
Anyway, they are using their position (dominant or not) to dissuade patent
holders to attack them. I don't think that very fair, and it may indicate that
they know they are infringing the law here.

~~~
mcphage
> they are using their position (dominant or not) to dissuade patent holders
> to attack them

Yes, absolutely. That's part of the job of a business.

> I don't think that very fair

I'm not sure what you mean by fair here.

> it may indicate that they know they are infringing the law here.

What it indicates, is that they're negotiating a new patent license with
Nokia, and both parties want it to be as good for their company as possible.

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jrnichols
what if it turns out they just weren't selling that well and Apple wanted more
shelf space?

