
California Could Legalize Magic Mushrooms in 2018 - whatyoucantsay
https://hightimes.com/news/california-could-legalize-magic-mushrooms-in-2018/
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djsumdog
You can currently buy psychoactive mushrooms in stores in The Netherlands.

Buying mushrooms illegally from a legit dealer in the US means making sure
they have several uniform bags of the product. You want to make sure they're
grown safely in a lab or farm. There are too many people who will go out and
just pick mushrooms, which is incredibly unsafe.

Unless you're an actual mycologist, it's difficult to tell what's safe and
what's toxic. There are even cases of mushrooms in the US that are toxic look
exactly like an edible food variety in Asia; even down to identifying
characteristics like spore prints. Entire families have gotten sick or even
died as a result.

So from just a safety perspective this would be a good move. Humans used
psychoactive substances for centuries, usually under the supervision of a
shaman or some type of religious figure to undergo a journey. It's not so
different than psychologist today looking to use mushrooms to treat serious
mental conditions. We have the advantage today of knowing we're not really
going on some kind of cosmic journey, but merely acknowledging how dependent
we are on our minds giving us our rational view of the world; and seeing how
that can be easily and radically changed.

~~~
jlebar
> Humans used psychoactive substances for centuries, usually under the
> supervision of a shaman or some type of religious figure to undergo a
> journey.

I don't have a position on legalizing psychoactive mushrooms, but I don't
think this is a good argument.

For example, humans also used lead to sweeten wine for centuries, but that's
not evidence that lead is harmless.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lead(II)_acetate#Sweetener](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lead\(II\)_acetate#Sweetener)

I'm sure we could come up with many more such examples.

~~~
Footkerchief
Just to complete this line of reasoning -- the grandparent comment does not
distinguish between good and bad effects of psychedelic mushrooms. It's easy
(even reasonable) to skip over that distinction with mushrooms, because their
bad effects are few and minor.

Mushrooms and leaded wine both have effects that their users long considered
good. The difference between them, for purposes of this argument, is that for
leaded wine we've since discovered very bad effects that completely outweigh
the good effects, whereas for mushrooms we haven't.

~~~
scruple
> because their bad effects are few and minor.

I have issues with this. I've personally had very bad mushroom trips that have
had effects that lingered for a year or longer. I'm not saying keep them
illegal, but I don't for one second believe it's a black and white issue,
either.

~~~
uoaei
Not necessarily black and white, sure, but there is a threshold defined as the
net personal/social benefit of the thing. If this is net positive, there's not
enough reason to ban it. If there is net negative, there are reasons to ban
it.

Further, the ban/not ban dichotomy is also fuzzier in practice. We can
restrict access according to attributes of people, or restrict consumption to
private settings, or otherwise. These decisions must be informed by the net
benefit.

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tptacek
An alternate perspective could be that California is lagging the other western
states on legalization exactly because of overreaching campaigns that don't
acknowledge the conservatism in the middle and south of the state.

A previous cannabis legalization effort in California, IIRC, proposed to make
cannabis consumption a protected employment class.

~~~
metalliqaz
I thought California was lagging behind because their first try included a
crazy monopolistic corporate giveaway to a handful of established companies.

~~~
DanCarvajal
Wasn't that Ohio?

~~~
metalliqaz
Possibly, I don't really follow this stuff.

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garyclarke27
Sensible Move - Magic Mushrooms are a truly wonderful very safe natural drug
which does not harm others, like violence inducing Alcohol. Some suffer bad
trips especially Women, but like a bad dream soon passes, with no harm done.
One positive of the damp weather in Wales UK is abundant Magic Mushrooms in
the Welsh Valleys in September to October. I took tens of thousands age 17 to
21 then grew out of them, fond memories though. The most I laughed in my
entire life was watching Airplane on MM literally rolling on the floor creased
up, Steve Martin films like the Jerk were also good on MM. Idiotic UK
government made them an illegal Class I drug.

~~~
palimpsests
Citation needed on women suffering more "bad trips" than men.

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throwaway_kea
While they're at it I really wish they would fix the laws around cacti.
Federal law bans Lophophora williamsii specifically for obvious reasons, but
California bans the entire genus as well. This is dumb because the other
member of the genus (diffusa) won't get you high, and is a very pretty cactus,
which is legal to own elsewhere in the US.

~~~
whyenot
Both are vey slow growing. It can take 25+ years for a plant to be large
enough to produce flowers. This has led impatient jerks go out and (illegally)
field collect them to the point where both species are considered threatened.
For that reason, I think their possession should be regulated everywhere.

~~~
orasis
So you want to make them more rare so that people have a strong incentive to
harvest from the wild? If you legalize home growing you'll create a larger
supply.

You should look at the history of Chestnut blight in the US. Due to the blight
the US government directed people to chop down chestnut trees by the millions.
If instead, they had allowed the blighted trees to continue to live, we may
have discovered some genetic mutations that would have allowed the species to
survive. Proactive regulation is not always the best move.

~~~
whyenot
> So you want to make them more rare so that people have a strong incentive to
> harvest from the wild?

No. I think them being illegal to posses is working to reduce field
collection. This strategy is used for many other endangered plants (such as
orchids) and seems to work. If people want to use psychoactives, then "magic"
mushroom and morning glory seeds (or Hawaiian wood rose seeds) have a much
lower impact on the environment and people should be steered towards those
options by making them legal (most already are; carrot) and coming down on
anyone who illegally collects Lophophora with a prison sentence (stick).

> You should look at the history of Chestnut blight in the US.

First of all, the species is not extinct. In fact, if you live in Silicon
Valley, there is a chestnut orchard with some American chestnut trees just a
short drive away in the Santa Cruz Mountains. There are many other populations
and ongoing work to try and breed resistant trees.

Second, trees were cut down to create a biological equivalent of a fire break.
The idea was, if there was a gap of 10-20 miles in front of the advancing
disease front where trees were removed, then it might be possible to contain
the disease. In hindsight, this might seem like a overly drastic measure,
especially since it ended up only delaying the spread and not stopping it
completely, but based on what was known about the disease at the time, and the
huge importance of the American chestnut as an economic resource, it was a
risk people were willing to take.

> Proactive regulation is not always the best move.

Yes, but sometimes it actually is the best move. I believe it is in this case.

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ravenstine
After this, I hope that legalizing home distilling is next on the docket. I
know it'd still be illegal federally, but you're much less likely to have the
ATF bust down your door if the state law enforcement isn't interested in it.

~~~
umanwizard
I hope they don't. It's much easier to kill yourself and others by home
distilling than by taking shrooms.

~~~
castis
The government shouldn't be in the business of protecting people from
themselves.

~~~
criddell
I think it's more about protecting the distiller's neighbors.

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setgree
I think this is a sign of civilization advancing. More on the subject would be
difficult to add without creating a throwaway account.

~~~
dwaltrip
I share both sentiments expressed in this post...

I've had powerful, formative experiences that pushed me in new directions such
that my values, viewpoints, and knowledge of the world were shaped in ways
that feel increasingly significant as I grow older and pursue a fundamental
understanding of the world around me. Much of this stems from endeavors that
occurred entirely separately from any psychedelic experience, but I find it
hard to imagine that I would have explored certain topics and ideas with the
same enthusiasm, without those formative experiences.

A few of the topics that I'm referring to are the nature of consciousness and
identity, theories of the mind, cognition, the structure and relations of
ideas and concepts in the brain, and how such things change over time.

I believe it has also had other significant positive personal effects in terms
of how I relate and empathize with others as well as process difficult
personal issues, but this is harder to describe.

I don't think these effects happen automatically -- rather, psychedelics are a
powerful tool that, with great care and responsibility, can likely be very
beneficial for many individuals.

Like any powerful tool, it can be misused or abused, but as humans it is our
job to make the most of the positive benefits while safeguarding and being
responsible about the negative effects. I do think that many people today
don't realize the extent of the positive benefits, and have an exaggerated
view of the potential harms.

Ideally, society can carefully and judiciously integrate the positive benefits
these substances provide, as we learn more about them in the coming decades.

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SCHiM
I think this is great. Like many other things in life, when taken in
moderation and responsibly, psychedelic drugs can be a great heap of fun!

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superplussed
I wonder if this could be the birth of the legal microdosing industry?

~~~
tree_of_item
Microdosing is the homeopathy of psychedelics. Despite being a meme for years
now there has been approximately one blind study, and that one done by an
amateur, gwern:

[https://www.gwern.net/LSD-microdosing](https://www.gwern.net/LSD-microdosing)

tl;dr it's bogus. Lots of anecdotal reports of its efficacy though, but again,
why don't these amateur recreational users blind their doses? They're prone to
placebo otherwise.

~~~
empath75
The idea of a placebo effect for psychedelics is kind of amusing.

~~~
tree_of_item
Microdosing is about _sub-perceptual_ doses. You are not supposed to get any
psychedelic effects at all. It is very much prone to the placebo effect. I
find it really amusing that anyone thinks taking 1-5ug of LSD is going to do a
damned thing.

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overcast
This would actually make me want to live in California. Everyone should
experience hallucinogens in the life, particularly magic mushrooms. It's truly
a life changing experience, for the better. Some of the best nights of my
young life were spent with friends, and mushrooms.

~~~
intrasight
I'm in too!

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calebgilbert
I live in California and this is the first I've heard of this. Legal shrooms
not happening this year or any other year soon, imho.

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devdad
Asking as someone not living in the US. Are mushrooms common and generally
seen as ok for consumption in California?

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dr_bloodmoney
Which is good to hear, because currently it is one of a handful of states
where ordering spores is illegal.

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jrs95
I mean I was pretty happy out here in the Midwest but you guys might pull me
in with this one

~~~
komali2
As a Wisconsin transplant, how are you happy when you must shovel, and shovel,
and shovel.

If I had stayed for one more winter I would have gone on a shovel-armed
homicidal spree.

~~~
jlgaddis
Here in Indiana, I have a four-wheeler with a plow. I have one for my truck
too, for when it gets really bad.

~~~
elliottkember
I mean I was pretty happy out here in San Francisco but you might pull me in
with this one

~~~
mikestew
Well, then, here’s some more: if you have some free time, you can make that
truck pay for itself plowing parking lots. Lots of friends of mine with 4x4s
did that when we lived in Indiana. Might not pay for the truck, but it was
reported that it easily paid for the plow and hydraulics in one winter.

~~~
elliottkember
I bet it’s really satisfying too, like those videos of people power-washing
dirty sidewalks.

~~~
mikestew
I've never owned a truck with a plow, but I've driven those owned by others.
It is power-washing your sidewalk x10. To watch a giant pile of stuff that's
in the way just disappear, and all at your hand: magical. Icing on the cake is
when it's -20F outside and you're sitting in a warm truck cab with a cup of
coffee, bending matter to your will. And there's a little something about
knowing that the parking lot will be usable, and businesses can do business,
because you showed up at 5:00 a. m. this morning.

I've also driven a tow truck in those conditions. Leaving your warm truck cab
and cup of coffee to go hook up a car when it's -20F outside: not magical
whatsoever.

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jpfed
I think this is going to lead to a lot of unforeseen problems. Brick
structures will be much more vulnerable once literally anyone can take one of
these and become twice as large. And once you've had a mushroom, if you get
the right kind of flower in your system you'd be an unstoppable fire-throwing
menace. Then it doesn't matter what kind of gun control is on the books.

I just don't know what they're thinking.

~~~
oneshot908
Well how many times must this be explained?

One pill makes you larger, one pill makes you small, and the ones that mother
gives you don't do anything at all...

~~~
whyenot
I'd be on the lookout for a hookah-smoking caterpillar

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MoD411
awesome

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oh-kumudo
Why Californians so obsessed with drugs? Any serious explanation?

~~~
cimi_
They're not 'obsessed': criminalization _doesn 't work_ because of many, many
reasons I will not repeat here.

I think that moving to legalise drugs (harmless or not) is the normal,
rational decision to make and the fact that is receives so much push-back
saddens me.

I would be curious to what lead you to your conclusion? The press is pretty
bad at painting this picture as most articles I've seen try to tickle people's
sensibilities rather than present objective facts.

~~~
yznovyak
But criminalization does work. Every time subject of criminalization comes up
people cherry pick Portugal as some kind of miracle example completely
ignoring Japan, Singapore, Georgia (country) Davao city, South Korea and
countless others examples where strict laws (and their enforcement) almost
completely eradicated drug abuse.

In the US you guys have incompetent people running the show and despite
throwing enormous amounts of money you still get abysmal results. You can't be
seriously talking that USA has honestly tried to deal with drugs when you have
whole genre of stoner movies (Pineapple Express, etc) and when Snoop Dogg
alone smokes weed like a chimney.

The incompetence in dealing with this is stunning. It's akin to homelessness
problem in San Francisco. SF spends ~$30k per homeless per year and the
problem only gets worse. Maybe, just maybe, those who are in charge are
complete morons? At 30k per year you could rent everyone a room in a nice
place. But currently it sure as hell doesn't look like homeless people have
30k worth of goods and services provided to them.

~~~
tree_of_item
Snoop Dogg would be executed in Singapore. Do you think that's a real solution
in the US? Is that what you want?

~~~
yznovyak
I'm not advocating any policy. I'm just against the echo chamber.

I'm saying that statement "criminalization doesn't work" is false. I foresee
people saying "but we tried, and it didn't work for us" and immediately try to
counter it by saying that you haven't actually tried at all. I'm saying that
you have rigged your drug policy to fail.

