
iPhone App will not stay open - just flashes when trying to launch - ant6n
http://community.garadget.com/t/iphone-app-will-not-stay-open-just-flashes-when-trying-to-launch/1706
======
jimmies
I don't know why many comments about "the customer is clearly an asshole,
therefore he deserves the lock not working/the company has the legal rights to
do so blah blah" are modded so high right now. Even when the customer is an
asshole, that has _absolutely nothing to do_ with a _security device_
betraying him or not.

I'm very glad that the customer is now only denied access to the app. I can
see one day a company that sells the "cloud-lock" will allow any thief to get
in the customer's door because they left a negative review for the product
(and not bragging about their vengeance in a public forum like this Garaget
company did). The fact that your lock one day will betray you, or your smoke
detector won't sound, your pacemaker will pump differently or your car will
make a _different_ ethical decision because the company that sells it thinks
that you're an asshole is beyond crazy.

If this isn't a wake-up call to anyone who doesn't realize how dangerous this
DRM (Digital Rights Myass) thing is becoming, I don't know what is. This is
the can of shit that's just can't wait to hit the fan for those who trust in
those cloud-based proprietary "solutions." This is exactly the kind of
behavior that Stallman and the EFF warned us against and guess what, they're
right again.

~~~
wapz
I agree with you completely. In addition, imagine if this was your home door
lock. Let's say it has bluetooth connectivity and it didn't work from 8 feet
away (with a 10 foot range advertised), you get pissed, give it a wordy 1 star
review, and the next thing you know you are _locked_ out of your house. This
is all at whim of someone behind a computer potentially halfway around the
globe.

~~~
ant6n
The Garage door often _is_ a home door.

------
dangrossman
Garadget is a "cloud-enabled garage door opener" sold for $99 on Amazon.

The manufacturer seemingly disabled the product, or primary advertised
features of the product, in retribution for a short negative review left on
Amazon.

IMO Amazon should immediately drop the product when they catch wind of that,
and so should any other retailer that carries it. The manufacturer's abused
their relationship with the retailer (which now has to handle a return of a
perfectly good device they sold) and the customers (who now have to fear
retribution for reviewing products they purchased at retailers).

Regardless of whether the content of the review was justified or not, this
probably won't go well for Garadget, whoever he is. A journalist has already
reached out to the customer.

I can sympathize with being frustrated with customers. It takes a lot of self-
control to remain professional at times. If you don't have that kind of self-
control, you need to hire someone else to do customer support that does, or
you won't have a very successful business. Being the boss doesn't mean there
are no repercussions for your actions.

~~~
dovdovdov
Their domain still leads to an indigogo page.

People should avoid startups those use crowdfunding websites as risk free
capital gainer preorder pages.

They don't get proper investment for a reason.

~~~
gingerbread-man
> They don't get proper investment for a reason.

That's not always true. Ergodox-ez.com has an _awesome_ product (a keyboard)
they funded through indiegogo. Not to mention basically _every 3d printer
company,_ even the VC funded ones.

Crowdfunding (and pre-ordering in general) helps hardware startups raise the
cash they need to manufacture a batch of product. Without it, they'd have to
raise the full cost of the batch in advance, (which is probably _a lot_ ,) on
the hope that customers will buy it up. I can't think of many startups that
have _that much_ goodwill from investors.

It makes sense to be extremely skeptical when giving your money to an early-
stage company, whether as an investor or a pre-order customer. But writing off
crowdfunding in general means you're writing off almost every hardware
startup, including some of the great ones.

~~~
yellowapple
Speaking of the keyboard world, there's also the extreme of the crowdfunding
concept: sites like Massdrop that emphasize crowdfunding individual batches of
a product (almost always one-off) rather than aiming for eventual mass-
production and general availability. It apparently seems to be working for
_some_ people, but as someone who doesn't follow every last Massdrop deal, it
just seems more annoying than useful as a business practice.

~~~
Gracana
It's definitely better for customers if you have a constant supply of products
to sell, but for niche hobbyist groups (like mechanical keyboard enthusiasts),
it's the only way to get some stuff made. I like it. I was able to get a
keyboard PCB fairly inexpensively, which is a big deal because getting one-
offs of PCBs that size costs $$$.

------
lucideer
I'm pretty surprised by the comments here on decorum and civility. The
customer called the product a "piece of shit" \- yes he used bad language, but
he's criticising the product itself. An object. The rep. directly insulted the
customer's character (saying he had "poor impulse control" and was throwing a
"tantrum").

Is this another example of American tendencies to be extra sensitive about
"profanity" or am I missing something? From my reading, the rep. was
significantly more out of line even in his tone and message than the customer,
even before he went and defacto-bricked the device in his own little tantrum.

The character assassination gets even more childish if you look at the
customer's account:

> _This user is suspended until Dec 28, 2019 3:37 am._

> _Reason: attitude_

~~~
hehheh
I'm also surprised at the amount of overly sensitive people defending Garadget
here. Their basis -- that this customer was likely brought up wrong -- is a
bit amusing. It suggests that the defenders were brought up to judge others
based a single interaction, without any thought of context, or anything but
the barest of social awareness.

'course, here I am doing the judging now.

~~~
hellofunk
Welcome to American culture. If you think this is bad, look at how parents
judge other parents' parenting skills. Mom-shaming is one of the great
American past-times. There are few cultures in the developed world with such a
strong affinity for judging others. It's the root of the political climate,
too: two people who might otherwise get along will, for example, often never
have a second date once they discover they are from different political
parties.

~~~
otterley
Shaming others is one of the basic acts of culture reinforcement. It's
everywhere in one form of another, not just America. You might notice it here
if you're a foreigner because what we shame might be different than where you
come from.

~~~
hellofunk
Yes it is everywhere, but it definitely exists in different degrees among
different cultures. Some societies show much greater preoccupation with other
people's lives than other societies. Which is why some cultures are known as
more "tolerant" than others.

------
qume
Dear customer,

We are a small team who don't have the resources to test every single OS
version on every device. Problems will happen.

As such we're happy to issue you a refund, and you can keep the device. All we
ask is that you let us update the app to make sure it's working on your
device, and hopefully others.

Thank you for helping us find the issue. We will work tirelessly until it is
fixed. If at some stage you are satisfied we would be delighted to turn your
one star review into a five star one.

Kind regards Company which needs a little bit of help in how to deal with
customers

~~~
arjie
Which companies do the refund + keep-device if unsatisfied?

~~~
jbverschoor
Every company selling products via the internet in the EU.

~~~
jo909
Definitive NO. I think you mean they have to offer free _return shipping_.

I only know the situation in Germany for that, and the law here is not even as
straightforward as most customers expect, just the big online retailers are
pretty relaxed with their return policies (because that is what the customers
are expecting).

There is no situation where you could insist on keeping a defective product,
and its also not commonly offered voluntarily.

~~~
PeterisP
Yes, they have to offer free return shipping and for many small items,
receiving a to-be-refurbished item is almost worthless to the manufacturer, so
it's both cheaper and simpler just to not ask for the item back.

~~~
jo909
Actually in Germany there is no longer a law that forces the retailer to cover
the return shipping costs. They will have to refund your money no questions
asked, including the shipping fee you paid, if you return the item in the
first two weeks, but not the return shipping. But since for a few years there
was such a law, it is very very commonly offered anyway.

And also you can in principle be asked to cover any loss of value if you
damaged the product or used it in any way that was not "necessary for
testing/evaluation".

So far I had to return every item I did not like or that arrived damaged.
Especially for obviously damaged goods it makes no direct sense for them to
ask for it back to trow it away on their end, but I really think at least a
retailer like amazon does not just hand waive a decision like that and has
some economic reasons.

Somewhat related, once I noticed a significant price drop the day after I had
bought a product from amazon, and asked support if they could refund me the
difference. They could not, but told me to just order another one for the
lower price and refuse the delivery of the first order (which means the
logistics company returns the item directly).

So clearly "cheaper and simpler" for a company like amazon is not always as
straightforward as one might expect.

------
jimktrains2
I like how they chastise Martin for poor impulse control and then go for the
nuclear option of disabling someone's account over a single review.

"They think my service doesn't work now, well let me show them what not
working is really like!" The irony is amusing, except for Martin.

Also, I'd like to take this time to note that this is another reason that it's
important to have control over your own devices.

~~~
toomuchtodo
The users who are arrogant and abusive usually have zero overlap with the ones
who care about control over their own devices.

~~~
jimktrains2
I mean, your statement is true for most subsets of users. "The users who are
nice and kind usually have zero overlap with the ones who care about control
over their own devices."

That said, I do view it as important for those of us that do care to be loud
about it. It's in the benefit of all consumers for devices to be secure and
usable without a external support.

I mean, even though I feel personally it should all be open hardware and
software, I won't even go that far. Just let my stuff work when your servers
stop working.

~~~
toomuchtodo
Carry the torch friend, I gave up the battle long ago. My last remnants of
caring are my recurring donations to the EFF and Public Knowledge.

------
atemerev
"Throwing a tantrum"? The review in question is something along the lines of
"the control app is flashing and doesn't work at all. This is junk, don't
waste your money on it. 1/5 stars." If you make any public facing products,
you will occasionally get such (and worse) reviews even if your product is a
shiny perfection forged in heaven by angels themselves and wrapped in magic.
Fact of life.

On the other hand, the support engineer's response (that ends with blocking
the user's device for good) _is_ a bona fide tantrum, worthy of textbooks.

I am also quite surprised by the number of comments here at HN siding with
Garadget. People like these shouldn't be allowed anywhere near tech support
roles, as a single such incident can ruin the company unless they can spend
tons of money for lawyers.

(This is why it is, in my opinion, better to start with enterprise products.
Enterprise sales are much less public and you can afford to fire customers you
don't like with ease, and vice versa.)

~~~
dqv
>I am also quite surprised by the number of comments here at HN siding with
Garadget.

I don't agree with disabling the customer's device, but I also don't agree
with customers somehow being absolved of having a minimum level of decorum.

~~~
PeterisP
Calling a product a piece of shit is perfectly acceptable behavior, it often
is a reasonable and accurate opinion about a product and _definitely_ meets
the standards of the "level of decorum" expected for customer product reviews.

Customers shouldn't be absolved of having a minimum level of decorum, but that
minimum is at the level of (a) personal insults at specific people ("Bob in
customer support is a piece of shit" wouldn't be ok but "your customer support
system is a piece of shit" is fine) or (b) libel, as decided by the legal
system.

For direct criticism of a product or service literally anything that I imagine
would be above that minimum level of decorum. Insulting people is not ok, but
insulting products definitely is.

~~~
victorhooi
No, I'm sorry, that is _not_ perfectly acceptable behaviour.

It's not illegal - but it's also not helpful, or constructive, and nor is it
desirable if you're trying to build a helpful community.

There are other ways of getting your point across, without resorting to
insults such as "piece of s*it".

In Chinese, we might call this 家教 - or "upbringing". If you have no decorum,
or class - it suggests that your upbringing was poor, or that your parents
failed to raise you well.

We often forget that there's another person at the other end of the phone, or
at the other end of our comment. In this case, a real-life person who put a
lot of work into a product. You don't have to love it - but if you are going
to criticise it, at least don't be a jerk, and make some good-faith efforts to
work with them through the issue.

It's not exactly like the developer didn't try to help.

~~~
RVuRnvbM2e
> In Chinese, we might call this 家教 - or "upbringing". If you have no decorum,
> or class - it suggests that your upbringing was poor, or that your parents
> failed to raise you well.

It's impressive that you're able to extrapolate the questioners life up until
this point based on three words.

If the product in question is a shitty product, there's no problem describing
it as such.

~~~
AIMunchkin
If he's from China (and I'm assuming so), I'm not so surprised. It's a status
thing culturally. I've had my ideas at work dismissed on the basis of my not
attending an Ivy League school by the sort that spouts concepts like this.

A more amusing instance of this outlook at work:
[http://www.cracked.com/personal-experiences-1940-china-
one-p...](http://www.cracked.com/personal-experiences-1940-china-one-place-
american-teachers-are-treated-as-stars.html)

------
sametmax
When I had a streaming website, featuring only embedded videos, we decided to
put a form so that people could tell us if something was wrong. 90% of it was
garbage:

\- gibberish \- insults \- useless comment either empty of content or context
\- people asking us to fix things that weren't broken, or weren't broken on
our site

We didn't ban them. Instead, we extracted each useful information out of it:

\- adding missing informations to guide people on the site \- adding features
to remove frustrations from people \- adding filters to remove fake email
addresses (dns lookup on the domain name) so that we spent only time on those
who are expecting an answer

The client is not always right. And I don't try to be nice to rude people. But
that doesn't mean you can't use rude people to improve your business.

And clearly, if you can't stomach the stupidity and nastiness of humanity,
don't sell to the average human. It's like getting angry at mosquitoes because
they bite you, it's the most useless reaction ever. Worst, those particular
mosquitoes give you money and you are not allowed to kill them.

So either do your job professionally or leave. Leaving is a very sane option
IMO. There is not reason you should live this experience if you don't want to
if you have the choice.

Any person working in an affordable bar, restaurant or shop knows that.
Because they often don't have the choice.

~~~
bambax
> _clearly, if you can 't stomach the stupidity and nastiness of humanity,
> don't sell to the average human. It's like getting angry at mosquitoes
> because they bite you, it's the most useless reaction ever. Worst, those
> particular mosquitoes give you money and you are not allowed to kill them._

This is gold! ;-)

I sell a little object on Amazon; a person returned it with an angry message
(non public) that explained that it didn't work, and while explaining it,
clearly demonstrated that she didn't understand how to use it.

I wrote her back to say I was sorry of what had happened and that we would try
to do a better job of showing how to use the object (which we did).

She didn't reply -- but bought 2 the week after...

------
cameldrv
Usually Internet (and real life) shitstorms are made when two assholes
collide. Customer may be an asshole trying to stick it to the little indiegogo
guy in a way he knows will have a disproportionate impact. On the other hand,
the iPhone app does really suck and crashes constantly. Even big companies
can't seem to make reliable software these days. All of that said, you went
into business, so time to put on the big boy pants and be a professional. You
sold the guy a device that comes with a service, and is useless without it.
Don't pretend that you can just cut off the service because you don't like the
guy and you've still fulfilled your obligations as a manufacturer.

On a broader note, IoT hardware that you install in your house that needs a
service provided by a shaky startup company is going to cease to be a salable
product fairly soon as more people get burned by it. We really need a low-
attack-surface, standardized protocol to control and monitor these things
without the support of the manufacturer. If we could make universal remote
controls for AV equipment in the eighties, we ought to be able to make a
universal remote control for home gadgets in the '10s.

~~~
erikb
Well, he's also offering a refund. Not sure where the problem is in that case
with the service provider's response. If you have sh*tty customers it's smart
to drop them fast and focus on your good customers.

~~~
kungtotte
Yeah, he bricked the device and then told him his only option was to return
and refund through Amazon.

Let's not pretend that Garadget is somehow being magnanimous here.

~~~
erikb
What device? The cloud-enabled device he sold himself? What I understand is
that he's blocking that user from using the cloud.

~~~
Steve0
Yes, the device the user paid 99 dollars for and is now useless. So for the
user to get his money back he has to send back the device.

~~~
erikb
And? That's how it works.

~~~
kungtotte
He doesn't like the customer's tone of voice so he can decide to turn the
customer's device into a $99 paperweight? That's not at all how it works.

You're being strangely defensive over this whole thread and I'm going to echo
another commenter in asking, are you affiliated with Garadget in any way?

~~~
erikb
That's how cloud services work. If you buy a cloud service, then F up with the
cloud provider, your cloud device is worthless.

And there's really no problem with it, since you can get your money back. You
don't lose any money.

> are you affiliated with Garadget in any way?

Let's say it's true. Would I say it, after going so far of somehow getting a
2843 days old HN account for it? Or let's say I'm not. Why would I even bother
to answer to anyone but a moderator (who would probably send me an email in
that case)? So, what's your point? Trying to discredit a discussion partner
because you run out of arguments?

------
raverbashing
I can't believe people are still buying any "cloud powered" crap for their
homes

Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice...

Don't buy anything "cloud powered/IoT stuff" unless you know what you are
doing and the product has been vetted by the general public and you're aware
that there will be breaches

Right now the number of IoT stuff I intend to buy is Zero

~~~
tomc1985
There are already established protocols in this space that never needed and do
not require a cloud connection, let alone internet. (I forget their names, but
industrial control automation has a long history) Why can't device makers
simply speak the language?

~~~
dawnerd
It's not so much the protocol since most of the devices are either z-wave or
zigbee (BTLE is growing). All of those can operate without a network
connection - it's just the companies that decided that the hub needs to store
everything in the cloud. I believe the new smarthings hub can operate offline.

I've been slowly upgrading stuff in my house but steering clear of wifi only
devices. They just don't work that well to begin with. Only exception being my
nest thermostat - but that can even work offline, just with limited
functionality.

------
nneonneo
For context, the associated review appears to be this one:
[https://www.amazon.com/gp/customer-
reviews/R2XHHHGM6BEUG6/re...](https://www.amazon.com/gp/customer-
reviews/R2XHHHGM6BEUG6/ref=cm_cr_arp_d_rvw_ttl?ie=UTF8&ASIN=B01KUZ2JPS)

~~~
Lazare
I'm sure any negative review is painful, but that hardly seems to cross any
lines.

"Abusive language" is really, really, _really_ stretching it.

~~~
Just1689
Yeah, abusive language it is not. It's more of a tantrum.

Looking at the other reviews, it does seem that the company is happy to help
with issues even where there is a negative review.

~~~
PeterisP
Why would you call it a tantrum? It sounds like a reasonable review that a
_calm_ dissatisfied customer would make as well.

------
EgoIncarnate
His service account was also banned: rdmart7 Robert Martin This user is
suspended until Dec 27, 2019 7:37 pm. Reason: attitude

after writing: iPhone App will not stay open - just flashes when trying to
launch Device Setup Just installed and attempting to register a door when the
app started doing this. Have uninstalled and reinstalled iphone app, powered
phone off/on - wondering what kind of piece of shit I just purchased here...

------
antfarm
From the Amazon product page Q&A:

 _What happens if the company goes out of business? Does the app require a
server to be active in order to use the App?

The app requires a server component as does any consumer friendly product with
mobile access. There is a plan to add the support for server-less mode, though
it will require users to configure domain name service and firewall. The main
server component is maintained by the Particle and pre-paid for the life of
the device. Additionally, unlike many products bricked by the companies going
out if business, Garadget is an open source system so it welcomes third-party
solutions._

[[https://www.amazon.com/forum/-/Tx1SJ70QRGDYZAY/ref=ask_dp_dp...](https://www.amazon.com/forum/-/Tx1SJ70QRGDYZAY/ref=ask_dp_dpmw_al_hza?asin=B01KUZ2JPS)]

~~~
Tepix
"pre-paid for the life of the device"

Sounds a like breach of contract.

------
diegorbaquero
I don't see this story going anywhere positive for Garadget. Blocking
functionality because of a bad review? This will backfire horribly.

~~~
erikb
They didn't block it because of the review. Read the stuff in the link and not
just the headline.

~~~
yunolisten
You've been shilling in this thread, and avoided answering the question "are
you affiliated with them?"

~~~
erikb
I've been actually answering that question twice, yunoreed.

~~~
yunolisten
It's called time, you did it after being prompted multiple times, and after I
posted this

------
tobyhinloopen
I think this is a bad thing to do. Customers bad-mouth companies all the time,
most of the times just temporary. Best to try to please them or to ignore it.
"Customer is always right" is in the end one of the best strategies, even if
it isn't true.

It takes great arrogance to ban someone bad-mouthing your product. I don't
think it is illegal and I don't think it should be, but I do think you should
be able to get a full refund.

Besides, getting banned for services you leave a bad review on is really bad
practice. Imagine a world where leaving bad reviews results in a ban from that
service... It would greatly reduce customer's trust in their products

Edit: The journalist comment on the amazon review (linked below). That might
burn, hehe

~~~
CaliforniaKarl
From garadget's post on their forum:

> At this time your only option is return Garadget to Amazon for refund. Your
> unit ID 2f0036... will be denied server connection.

It seems to me like garadget is perfectly willing to refund the purchaser,
once the purchaser returns the item.

~~~
rkeene2
This seems a bit like altering the terms of the sale after the sale has
completed.

He bought the product, he's entitled to the product -- a refund is not
sufficient since the purchase cannot be rolled back.

~~~
victorhooi
Err, isn't that by definition what a refund is?

You roll back the purchase?

Customer gets his money back, Garadget gets the device - and they don't need
to deal with each other again.

~~~
chopin
At least in Germany, you are not entitled to enforce this by disabling the
purchase. That could backfire badly.

------
bambax
For those like me wondering what Garadget (garage door futurizer) is:

> _Garadget is a simple and elegant way to breath [sic] a new life into your
> existing garage doors opener. It helps prevent mishaps so familiar to many
> of us..._

... and then introduces new ones, like: "have I used the correct words when
speaking to a company representative, or else I won't be able to open my
garage door".

This is a general problem. It's possible that if you buy a Tesla and trash-
talk the brand somewhere, you won't be able to drive it anymore, for example.

This future we're living in, I'm not sure I like it. In any case I'm now
certain I don't want to _futurize_ my garage door.

------
davidgh
I was a co-founder of a business where I served as the lead product developer
and served as tech support for many years at the same time. When you craft
something with your own two hands - pouring sweat and tears (literally) into
it - and a customer contacts you with half truths, unfair accusations and has
made very little effort to fairly examine the situation, it is incredibly
difficult to not take it personally.

In the heat of the moment, I occasionally found myself typing up a nasty
response. Out of habit, I would re-read my response before sending it. That
always caused me to pause. I don't recall a situation where I sent my original
gut reaction. Inevitably, I would re-write the response in a much less
personal and much more professional tone. This caused my customer to (almost
always) respond in a similar manner, and in time a personal and professional
relationship of trust was the result.

Nonetheless, it seemed to be somehow therapeutic to bang out my initial
reaction, even though I didn't send it. It allowed me to put my frustrations
down on paper, which caused me to think through the situation. It also allowed
me to "vent" and blow off the steam caused by my ooo-so-personal connection to
the business. And perhaps most importantly, it allowed me to see that the
nature of my gut response was at least partially unjustified, somewhat
immature and certainly unprofessional.

I shudder to think of the opportunities (and genuine friendships) that would
have been forever lost if I had pushed "send" on my initial responses. The
satisfaction of such responses lasts but a moment yet the consequences last
forever.

------
JumpCrisscross
Do we know what state OP lives in? By coïncidence, I'm in a legislative
meeting on Thursday concerning New York's regulation of the post-purchase
responsibilities of retailers and manufacturers of devices that neeed to talk
to the Internet to work.

------
hellofunk
Wow, I will most definitely never under any circumstances become a customer of
this spoiled company and its pretentious support behavior. People like this
should not be in the software business at all if they don't want to deal with
customers (including the more hostile/rude ones). If you are going to sell
something to the public, you must be prepared to professionally handle all
kinds of people, and if you cannot, you should not be interfacing with the
public at all.

------
jitix
We should probably start having regulations around IOT servcies. The issue
here isn't that the customer or the service rep was abusive. The real issue is
that the company can disable the cloud service that is essential for their
product to work based on their perception of the customer.

It seems really risky to purchase IOT products right now.

~~~
bigbugbag
Could it be different though ? IOT is closely related to MMO videogames in
that most servers close down at some point in the not so distant future.

I will not buy any IoT ever, even with regulations.

Factor in that IoT has terrible security and has already been massively
exploited and now you're part of a criminal ring of webcam owners or fridges
or whatever gizmo that attempted to DoS a DNS root server or government or
antiterrorist unit and according to laws you can be jailed/decapitated/fined
or worse.

~~~
jitix
Hmm.. in that case some sort of classification should be there. Games are non-
essential but temperature controller, door openers and locks are essential
functionalities.

As a general rule the manufacturers of IOT devices should be made by law
release the server side code/binaries that a consumer could run by yourself
(and also provide configuration options on the hardware device itself). I know
it won't be of much use to most consumers as of now but as people become more
techology-literate they should be able to download a container, choose a cloud
provider and upload it to run the backend.

As IPv6 become more popular home routers could expand their functionality to
provide container hosting.

edit: Added the part about self-hosting.

------
Entalpi
Yeah, negativity/hate is not a reason to force your customers to refund their
purchases. This is basically illegal, atleast in Sweden if not the EU since
this voids the functionality of the product with an intent to discriminate
against a group of people.

Its also a dick move just in the casual way.

~~~
stephen_g
I'm pretty sure remotely bricking a device like this would be against
Australia consumer law also.

I imagine that kind of thing varies state-by-state in the US?

------
bartread
To be honest if I'd bought a product that in some way controlled access to my
property and which malfunctioned and locked me out, I'd probably not show too
much patience either.

There are any number of reasons it could be important for me to get into my
house or garage _right_ _now_ : I've left the stove on, I've left a soldering
iron on on my workbench, my partner has collapsed, I've popped out to pick
something up from the garden and have accidentally locked myself out and my
baby is inside unattended, or I'm just really effing tired at the end of a
long and draining day at work and it's that one last straw (and the list goes
on).

Sure, I probably wouldn't _lead_ with swearing, but I can pretty much
guarantee that if the situation wasn't resolved very quickly swearing would
result.

All of this just strengthens my resolve against the idea of living in a
"smart" home. Give me a physical lock and key, and a decent EDC solution for
carrying the latter, and I'm happy. The one improvement you could make (which
a friend pointed out to me the other day) is to add central locking. I.e., I
leave by any exit and lock the door, and every door and window in the house
locks. Of course, there are ways that could backfire so it needs some careful
thought, but you get the idea.

Anyway, I won't be buying a Garadget or any similar device anytime soon.

------
gargravarr
Seen from the company's perspective, a user posting a negative Amazon review
BEFORE contacting the manufacturer for help is upsetting, especially when as
others have noted, it's a product you've invested a lot in, and suddenly you
have someone publicly advising others not to buy it. Of course this can cause
even a well-meaning employee to go straight to damage control.

Not that I'm defending the person here, though. This is a total overreaction,
and very condascending. Insulting your customer by questioning their maturity
is not going to help your relationship, they've basically abandoned all hope
of solving the customer's problem right from the start (going directly against
their role as customer support) and again tried to do damage control, not
realising they're part of the Twitter generation.

What's even worse is that the account name is the exact name of the
company/product, so it's totally official, and endorsed by the head of the
company. If it was any other name, it could be passed off as a rogue
representative having a bad day, but to see something like this coming from
the official account, that if you don't play how we want you to play, we'll
kick you out, is sure to put others off.

Not that I needed or ever wanted a 'cloud-connected garage door opener' but
hell, I would never buy one from this company now.

~~~
laurent123456
> a user posting a negative Amazon review BEFORE contacting the manufacturer
> for help is upsetting

I don't know about that to be honest. Contacting the manufacturer, trying to
work with them to get it working, it's all nice but actually it's just another
step to turn customers into free QA staff. Companies managed to make this
acceptable for software, then for videogames, and now they try with regular
devices.

If it's released, if it's on Amazon, it has to work. If it doesn't, I'm glad
the guy complains about it and rate it one star, so that I don't buy it myself
and waste time with a buggy device.

~~~
gargravarr
I don't disagree on the QA staff point, but any new product, no matter how
well designed, will have problems. And this is across anything that can be
bought and sold, software, devices, ideas... nothing is ever perfect first
time.

A related concept is that no amount of testing is ever going to cover every
corner case. I mean, for the sake of argument, let's say this guy's iPhone
hasn't been updated in who-knows-how-long and is running an OS that's five
years past its sell-by date. It's probably next to impossible to buy an
identical phone to test with, but their software needs an update that was
introduced two years ago, and there's no way around it. This all could have
been conveyed in a calm and pleasant (and constructive) forum thread without
resorting to name-calling on anyone's part.

I get that first impressions stick, make no mistake, and having the product
fall on its face as soon as you get it out of the box is one of the worst. To
a degree, users have unrealistic expectations (I'm a developer-turned-
engineer), but companies are guilty of that by letting their marketing
divisions claim perfection to the point of making your morning tea the moment
you open the package.

Just saying that, yes, an out-of-box experience gone bad is not what you pay
for, but a polite email to the company or seller can often resolve it quietly
and calmly, and in the extreme case, they'll offer a refund. I've dealt with
several bad buying experiences this way and usually end up rewarding the
seller for doing their utmost to make things right after a firm but
professional email exchange. No need for cursing, just telling the seller you
are unhappy. Of course, being more technical than the average, my expectations
are probably much closer to reality from the outset. Most people buying into
the IoT market seem to be average Joe's expecting magic.

If the company had responded correctly, this could well have been a positive
outcome and the circumstances that caused the initial complaint nullified, so
nobody else has a similar out-of-the-box experience, and the one-star review
becomes obsolete. In that scenario, I as a seller would be extremely eager not
to let that one bad experience spread and taint perceptions of my product.

Of course, that didn't happen here. The company is way more at fault, no
question, but the buyer had no reason to curse a device that didn't live up to
his expectations, however unrealistic they are, until the company has had a
chance to explain themselves (whether they take it or not). However, now it's
all blown up. As for whoever's behind that official forum account, I sincerely
hope they're either fired, or if it's the boss himself, his product probably
deserves to fail. No room in this world for two Elon Musks...

------
craig_peacock
Garadget does not deserve to be in business. If you are a B2C company
specializing in security IoT, you don't have the right to disable your clients
hardware as you see fit...Garadget have engineered a common product, but they
know little about business...

~~~
morganvachon
Indeed, could you imagine the uproar if ADT (a traditional, remote monitoring
security company in the US) were to lock a customer out of their own house
because of a bad review? This is no different and is downright suicidal of
Garadget.

Even if this is the action of a single bad employee, so far the company has
not stepped up to remedy the situation, and given it's a crowdfunded business
out of nowhere, I wouldn't be surprised to learn that the bad employee in
question is a founder of the company. If that's the case, it's rotten to the
core.

------
mizzao
Welp, seems like a massive Streisand effect
([https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Streisand_effect](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Streisand_effect))
going on here. Really torpedoeing their reviews...

[https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/reviews/B01KUZ2JPS/](https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/reviews/B01KUZ2JPS/)

------
konceptz
Just an FYI update for those still looking.

Admin posted a response: <Quote> Ok, calm down everybody. Save your pitchforks
and torches for your elected representatives. This only lack the death treats
now.

The firing of the customer was never about the Amazon review, just wanted to
distance from the toxic individual ASAP. Admittedly not a slickest PR move on
my part. Note taken.

A quote from a random guy132.

PS: Anybody has Streisand's phone number? </quote>

~~~
justin66
It's mostly just too bad modern finance doesn't offer a way to short the stock
of a small indiegogo thing that's doomed to fail...

------
LeoNatan25
Why was the original title modified? I thought it captured exactly what
happened perfectly, and was not a click-bait.

Anyway, the Amazon page is getting attention from ArsTechnica and Vice
journalists. It's getting more and more interesting.

------
vbezhenar
Client is bad. I don't care, it's his problems. Service is not that good. I
care about it, those could be my problems. I don't behave like that client,
but who knows, what they don't like.

Actually I'm surprised if it's legal to do. In my country, if you're doing
public business, you can't choose your clients. You set price, client pays
money, you serve client. You can't deny your service just because of reasons.
There are some exceptions like face-control on half-private parties, but those
are gray areas.

And, hell, no clouds near my, unless they are completely optinal. They are
terrible for user. I hope, people will learn it and will avoid clouds like
plague. User should own his data and code to process that data.

~~~
qqg3
Client isn't "bad". They are a customer not a client, the relationship is so
very different, you can't just fire a customer or tell them to go away,
especially not if you're selling your product on Amazon where people have an
expectation of quality.

~~~
dozzie
> They are a customer not a client, the relationship is so very different

Mind you, for many non-native English speakers this is very subtle, non-
obvious difference. In my language, for instance, we don't have separate words
for clients and customers.

~~~
umanwizard
I'm a reasonably literate native English speaker and I don't understand what
the (supposed) difference is.

~~~
slededit
The relationship with a client is closer. Generally speaking the work is more
bespoke and the level of trust between parties is higher. You see this when
the product is not standardized.

A customer on the other hand is anonymous and you're relationship with them
will generally end after the original sale.

------
nkrisc
How's this for a review?

Buyer beware! Your device could be disabled just because someone at the
company doesn't like you. 1/5 stars.

------
bigbugbag
I'm not sure what annoys me the most in this story, that the developer tracks
users and punish customers that s/he doesn't like or that some people are
"buying" "cloud" based software with no understanding that this means they are
denied control and ownership of said software and that it will stop working
the instant the company folds the servers.

Foucault's "Surveiller et Punir" (Watch and punish) makes me wonder how cloud
and smartphone are not so different from being locked up in a jail.

------
bschwindHN
What's the right way to design an IoT product to not be dependent on a
startup's cloud servers?

\- Allow the app/device to point to a different host (running an open source
version of the backend)? \- Support LAN connectivity without round-tripping to
a third party server? \- Allow the user to load their own firmware onto the
device?

I don't know where the line is for these things, it seems to be a balance of
convenience, ownership, and security.

What's the ideal way to handle this so it works well even if the backing
company disappears?

~~~
exDM69
> What's the right way to design an IoT product to not be dependent on a
> startup's cloud servers?

How about providing a single board computer like a Raspberry Pi and the
software images (or source code if you can) to run the software? This is
obviously not a solution for everyone but it would probably work great for the
DIY crowd.

That said, I'm not buying any IoT devices, self-hosted or not, in the
foreseeable future. When I buy a gadget that opens my garage doors, I expect
it to last 10-30 years with minimal maintenance. I have zero faith in a
startup being able to provide even a fraction of that. The economics just
don't add up, why would they give me any service decades from now if I paid
them $99? The company will have to sell a whole lot of these in order to be
able to keep their servers running and their clients updated to run on most
recent iOS/Android. I don't see any technical issues in doing so, just that
it's not a viable business.

~~~
bschwindHN
> How about providing a single board computer like a Raspberry Pi

The issue is more about connection to external servers than the particular
board itself. A product that both runs great out of the box, and is also
hackable to the point where it doesn't 100% rely on the original company being
around to run is the sweet spot I'm thinking of. I'm mostly just thinking
aloud about what features the product needs to have in order to hit that sweet
spot.

> That said, I'm not buying any IoT devices, self-hosted or not, in the
> foreseeable future

That's cool, but this isn't about the average HN user. Consumers want to, and
indeed they do, pay for these devices. I just want a nice model where these
products can be sold while not leaving the customer stuck if the original
company goes under.

~~~
exDM69
> The issue is more about connection to external servers than the particular
> board itself.

Oh I meant that the R.Pi would be the server where the IoT gadgets connect to.
Located in your home and available through your home network connection.
Optionally with some kind of (self-hosted) server in your own VPS.

This is obviously a solution for DIY-ers only.

> Consumers want to, and indeed they do, pay for these devices.

I don't think this will ever work if the customers pay for the devices but not
for the service. A $99 gadget doesn't leave much for the company to be running
the service. I don't see how the economics would work out without a recurring
payment.

My gut feeling is that gadget startups such as this one haven't even thought
about surviving more than 3-5 years without being acqui-hired to a major corp.
Some may bet on getting to be big and thinking that scale will help.

But even if every darn garage in the world would have this gadget for the $99
they charge, I can't see how they can keep the servers running and the
software up-to-date with a one time purchase for the life expectancy of an
average garage door.

But consumers complain about recurring fees and there's only so many services
you can subscribe to. Paying $2-$10 a month for your garage door, thermostat,
cat feeder, plant waterer, etc will add up to a lot of money and hassle.

The only way I see forward with cloud-powered IoT gadgets is that a major
company with billions of dollars sets up the infrastructure that will scale up
to millions of users with a few billion gadgets (and a monthly fee). It's
either that or self-hosted DIY. I don't think it's economically viable for a
start-up to provide a cloud service for a one-time fee for any meaningful
period of time.

I'm sure customers don't want to buy and install a new garage door opener
every 3 years when their previous IoT gadget startup goes belly up, servers go
down and the gadget turns to a brick.

~~~
bschwindHN
Ahh I see what you mean about the Pi now. If only consumers were satisfied
with a LAN-only IoT device...

As for server costs, I think you could get away with something pretty low cost
if you trim down what you offer to essentially just a message broker that runs
on a handful of machines. Depends on what kind of data the device works with.
A camera would cost a lot in bandwidth. A garage door opener, not so much.

If IPV6 were more widespread I suppose the issue of connecting apps to devices
would be more straightforward but as it is now you pretty much need a third
party server if you want to control your devices remotely. But for a small
team handling thousands or tens of thousands of these devices, I think your
server costs wouldn't amount to much. If your product becomes big you could
start launching other things to sell and reuse the infrastructure you have. At
least, that's how I hope it would go down :)

------
jinishans
The question is not about this IoT Garage Door disabled, it's about how safe
our devices are if it's gone connect to the providers server. I'm sure this
Startup will comeup with a story saying it was by a 'so called' bad employee
and try to manage the PR for the day. How's that this and other co are going
to safeguard our data/access to our own product/home if it happens to say a
Smoke Detector or Smart Lock if we give bad review. Will they unlock it and
claim its' a glitch because I've given a bad Review and sigh go nuke and use
abusive language ? What the hell is this ? I thought the Govt alone is acting
in a Totalitarian mentality, looks like it's given Co. also the feeling that
they can act like this in a Democracy. What S __T is this ? Who to believe ?
What to buy ? What if a Smart Smoke Detector co employee decides not to alarm
/notify me when my kids are at home alone ? If a life is lost will they be
able to give back ? We need LAWS to CLOSE DOWN such Co. so that they don't
hide behind 'so called' bad employee or 'so called' bug/glitch in their
program.

It raises a larger question, are Smart Devices are really Smart or gone screw
us one day like this ?

------
justin_vanw
This is (hopefully) someone who has very little experience dealing with
customers and did a bad job today. It's not some web 3.0 holocaust that we all
have to be shocked and amazed about.

I'm sure he'll get chastised and everyone involved will continue to be fine
(and maybe a little wiser). Or we'll turn it into some major incident with our
weird fixation and the person will get fired and it will turn into a 'whole
big thing'.

------
yunolisten
The Internet of Silly things strikes again. Perhaps people will grow cautious
of buying into products and services which they have no real control over.

~~~
OliverJones
IoST. (Internet of Silly Things). Love it!

It's more polite than IoWJ (Internet of Worthless Junk).

~~~
yunolisten
Excellent, you can join the steering committee where we ignore all lessons
learned from any previous product security failure, and add in multiple
expensive features users can't comprehend, let alone use. To the cloud!

------
HurrdurrHodor
I'm kind of happy that this is happening. Whatever the legal situation may be
this is just wrong and it needs to be fixed.

On steam you don't buy games anymore you only buy the right to play them so
you cannot resell them. You are effectively buying a service.

Now in this case you are buying a device that does not work without the
service and you don't have a right to the service?

No, this does not make sense.

------
sowbug
Should the result have been any different if this exchange had happened face-
to-face in a brick-and-mortar store?

Most stores display signs reserving the right to refuse service to anyone.
Using profanity is one reason a customer might get kicked out.

------
itchyjunk
Does 1 review make or break a company? I've been seeing a lot of "5 star vs 1
star" issues recently. One of them was on an Uber article where the customers
were not getting 5 start for not tipping for example and this impacted their
ability to get rides (or so I think based on what I read).

A lot of other smaller companies selling stuff online only and even Indi games
seems to be very sensitive about reviews. Is the difference between overall 4
star vs 5 star so impactful?

Maybe there is a deeper problem somewhere in here. Or maybe this is a
reasonable backfire for a bad customer support.

------
benchaney
The IOT industry yet again proves that it is irresponsible and incompetent.

------
chrismatheson
This whole area feels like the territory the super-injunctions came out of.

There is almost no coming back from widespread bad publicity, no way to
equally show the other side of the discussion, and its only getting easier to
take your 5 minutes of frustration to the largest platform in the world and
complain before doing a single minute of work, thought or reasoning.

I don't think its a bad attitude to simply say "I don't want to work with
those who don't want to work with me."

------
stefek99
> I'm happy to provide the technical support to the customers on my Saturday
> night but I'm not going to tolerate any tantrums.

> At this time your only option is return Garadget to Amazon for refund. Your
> unit ID 2f0036... will be denied server connection.

HELL YEAH! Finally someone with the balls!

Bending over backwards - NOPE - why don't you contact support first? Why do
you use course words? WELL DONE

------
libeclipse
Someone left some advice for the customer of the company on the linked thread
and that rep deleted it and locked it. Does anyone have it?

------
HelloNurse
When judging the social and technical skills, business sense, self-
preservation instincts etc. of the involved parties, consider that these
people are special enough to devise and produce a ridiculously unsound IoT
device and to buy it. Learning about this incident made me feel on the winning
side of natural selection.

------
TEEKAYBINATOR
[https://www.reddit.com/r/amateurradio/comments/5iklei/ham_ra...](https://www.reddit.com/r/amateurradio/comments/5iklei/ham_radio_deluxe_support_disabled_the_software_of/)

ahh memories.

------
jalibster
Unless this unprofessional business owner not only refunds the money but
establishes in writing no harm has befallen the owner as a result of using his
device, he's probably got a lawsuit coming. The fact of the case are public
knowledge now. No amount of abuse by customer legally or ethically justifies
removing the primary feature of the device that was purchased. Money must be
refunded before the account can be closed. The behavior is not only
unprofessional and incredibly poor judgement as well as emotional control.
This company has a an open-shut case against them from what I know of the law
here. It also sets a nasty precedent that would possible compel to throw the
book at the business owner to discourage similar behavior from other IoT
companies. Really bad call, Garadget. IoT's are proving dangerous enough
without company owners doing things like this.

------
nla
Who would use a garage door opener that has to connect to some clown company
servers?

~~~
feld
I'm using their product. Let me tell my story.

I have an old garage door opener -- ancient Craftsman. It doesn't even have a
secure RF opener; no rollover codes or faux-crypto. My wife lost her garage
door opener remote. I looked for replacements and couldn't find any that were
less than $40 new or $30 used. Ridiculous.

I have an outdoor keypad on the garage, which is detached. It doesn't work
very well in the extreme cold because the 9V battery gives out. This solves a
unique problem for me: I do not want to buy a new garage door opener. Mine was
recently rebuilt with new gears and should be good to go for years. Further,
would be a few hundred dollars without labor, and I don't want to do the labor
myself. I've done it before; not worth my time. Now, Garadget exists. I got
mine for $69. Now I have infinite remotes as long as my wifi works (It's on my
IoT VLAN which only can do outbound 80 and 443).

So, Garadget solved a unique problem for me in 5 minutes of work and saved me
money. Hilarious that a device this advanced is cheaper than a simple RF
remote, but that's supply and demand in action.

Now is this a security concern for me? No. If someone wants to break into my
garage they can eBay some garage door keys and just disengage the garage door
from the opener via the keyhole on the front of every modern garage door. Or
pick it I guess? Or they could get a kids toy and reprogram it to brute force
all the garage doors in the neighborhood.
[https://youtu.be/iSSRaIU9_Vc](https://youtu.be/iSSRaIU9_Vc)

tl;dr while this is the Internet of Silly Things, this is not a security
concern for me. If someone hacks the company servers and starts opening and
closing my garage door I'll just unplug it or remotely block it from my
network.

------
arihant
It is borderline psychopathic to track down a user who gave you bad review and
brick their device. It's also illegal.

People don't even spare Apple for their fuck ups. Who do they really think
they are?

------
ajohnclark
Lost opportunity to learn, improve product and turn a detractor around.

------
Gonzih
Poor impulse control on both sides. If you are incapable of distancing
yourself from not so mean or angry comments like that you should not be let
handle customer support.

------
itsnotvalid
Even if the customer is a dick, you can't lock someone out of their own door.

Now let's think again when you trust some third-party for something as
important as your home door.

------
StreamBright
Do they realise that nobody is going to sympathize with the company in such a
situation? Perfect example of how to make things worse.

------
seesomesense
The item has reached international media. British tabloids, Vice and a Polish
site are all reporting on it.

Karma...

------
codedokode
Maybe the real reason was that it is cheaper to ban a customer than
investigate the issue?

------
Johnny555
I was wondering why the Amazon product page wasn't full of one-star warnings
about this behavior, until I tried to post one, twice.

Both times it was rejected as being against review guidelines:
[http://www.amazon.com/review-guidelines](http://www.amazon.com/review-
guidelines)

~~~
dawnerd
Thats a good thing. Reviews should only be from actual customers, not people
using it to post anything - good or bad. Best thing you can do is mark the
negative comments about the app not working as helpful as those will be
surfaced higher up.

------
linsomniac
Personally, if I ended a support request with "wondering what kind of piece of
shit I just purchased", returning to Amazon for a refund would probably be the
_BEST_ outcome I would expect.

But the founders response also could use some work. Always take the high road.

"Get a lawyer" is why we can't have nice things.

------
jamespo
I like how "throwaway2" has gone to the teacher to tell tales on that page

------
thrillgore
Garadget probably just cost themselves a lot of potential customers.

------
api
Cloud-to-butt keeps delivering.

------
tomc1985
Anyone else notice how he refers to customers identified by username by their
first name?

That's ... weird.

------
Gpugnet
That's not being professional

------
aanm1988
I thought acting like this against a bad review was pretty much verboten on
Amazon?

~~~
justin66
It would cause problems if the customer wanted to continue using the product
after leaving the bad review.

------
aanm1988
I'm gonna go against the grain here and say I don't think this should be
legal. Hiding behind the idea "we only sold you a license" is ridiculous. You
sold a product, it includes supporting software. Unless their is actual misuse
by the customer you shouldn't have the right to arbitrarily terminate that
license.

That seems like a contract that clearly shouldn't be allowed.

------
deusofnull
lots of good things being said here, but being honest with everyone, I can
imagine why he did it.

------
danbolt
After reading this, I immediately thought of the xkcd comic about the tiniest
open-source violin. [1]

I find these cloud-connected ways of augmenting our home are really neat, but
I think examples like these are why I wouldn't want the technology being
proprietary or requiring a company's cooperation just to open a door.

[1] [https://xkcd.com/743/](https://xkcd.com/743/)

------
Rafa19994
Totally agree with you!

------
xer0x
I kinda like that they disabled the device. It's a bit strange, but I'm
surprised this discussion isn't more divided.

------
Iknowthatfeel
Reading this, I have empathy for the developer.

There is a small subset of customers that will give you a bad review at the
drop of a hat because they know it hurts you. They're poison.

Finally one of these people got some tiny payback.

~~~
finaliteration
Acting out in retributive ways when your customers (justifiably or not) have
issues and leave negative reviews is a pretty terrible way to build and run a
business.

Is the spite towards that one person really worth it?

~~~
CaliforniaKarl
Look at the timing.

This was an Amazon purchase. The developer mentions Saturday, and how the
Amazon review was left around the same time as the forum post, so presumably
the the item was delivered on that same day. That's gonna be a bad experience
for both sides: The purchaser has to wait until Monday to return, and the
developer has to deal with (what I expect is) a drive-by flame. It's a
Saturday night, and each side reacted poorly.

Honestly, I doubt the guy was going to continue attempting to use his device
after leaving such a review, so the developer bricking it doesn't have any
effect. In addition, the customer will get his money back via the Amazon
return, so the developer was losing there anyway.

We don't know anything else, so I don't know what the actual problem would be.
It could've been build quality, or shipping, or software, or the purchasers
mobile device, or who knows what.

To be honest, based on what I see here, and speaking as someone who is just a
customer, I believe the customer started the boulder running with his negative
review and drive-by flame, and I feel lenient towards the developer.

~~~
robryan
I bet the guy would be happy to continue using the product, they just want it
to work.

You work out what their problem was and fix it, if they explain the issue.
Regardless the attitude should be "how do we make sure the next buyer doesn't
have an issue".

You are going to get bad reviews no matter what, some entirely unfair. All you
can do it focus on making the product as good as it can be.

------
eps
Not "for negative Amazon review", but for being an asshole.

This guy forgot that there are people behind every product and the abstraction
is as thin as it gets when it is in fact a smaller company or a startup. There
are negative reviews and there are nasty reviews. He was nasty to them and
they no longer wanted him as a client. No reason why a company should swallow
shit that a person wouldn't. They certainly _can_ do that (no questions asked
refunds, customer is always right, etc), but it's an option, not a
requirement.

[Edit]

We had paying customers like that - sent pissy emails, no Hello, no signature,
just spit and complaints about minutae with personal attacks ("only an idiot
would do it that way") and a shitload of entitlement because they paid us
money. In all cases they recieved an immediate refund and a goodbye. If they
can't make a basic effort to keep things civil, we have no interest in working
with them.

The only issue with the case at hand is that they explicitly mention bad an
Amazon review, while they actually dropped him because of his general toxic
attitude.

~~~
_pmf_
Read the review here [0]; it's not abusive. It's probably the review of some
guy who has been burned by half-assed Amazon shovel ware before.

[0] [https://www.amazon.com/gp/customer-
reviews/R2XHHHGM6BEUG6/re...](https://www.amazon.com/gp/customer-
reviews/R2XHHHGM6BEUG6/ref=cm_cr_arp_d_rvw_ttl?ie=UTF8&ASIN=B01KUZ2JPS)

~~~
CaliforniaKarl
The guy has three reviews on Amazon, two of which are one-star.

I think the abusiveness is primarily in the guys forum post, plus posting the
negative Amazon review without waiting for response from the developer.

But that's just my sensitivity level.

~~~
gre
He has two one-star reviews and a five-star. You can't actually fault him for
only reviewing the exceptional Amazon purchases...

------
erikb
Honestly I think the app author is acting well within his means here. The user
uses abusive language and apparently immediately escalates the issue when not
being satisfied immediately despite his language.

~~~
glogla
You spent a lot of posts defending the company. Are you affiliated with them?

~~~
erikb
I think many people here only read the headline and immediately start aiding
the destruction of what seems to be a single person's business. I have
experienced myself how painful it can be to stay polite towards a*hole
customers, so as said in some comment: It's totally fine to quit a customer
who acts like that and refund him.

~~~
bluefox
I'll just note that this entry was posted twice, by two different accounts,
with the same title, even though it does not appear anywhere in the site. PR
effort for or against.

~~~
erikb
What entry? You mean my post? If so, please reference the other.

~~~
bluefox
I mean the HN submission.

~~~
erikb
Yeah, alright.

------
cyberferret
Perhaps it is because I have spent the entire day today trying to mitigate a
new user on our web app trying to abuse our service to send out spam, but I am
leaning more towards siding with Garadget on this one.

I know that 'being professional' is of paramount importance, but I wish users
would remember that every time they send an abusive email to a company, an
actual person is on the other end who is going to be receiving, reading and
interpreting it. I've been caught hunched over my desk late on a Saturday
night (the purported time that the rep received the email) after spending all
day debugging an obscure issue in my software, and I can tell you that it
won't take much to push my overtired brain to retreat into its 'inner child'
mode at the slightest provocation.

In all cases, I am glad I implemented the 'count to 10' rule or just stepped
away from the keyboard for a while to gain some time to come back and look at
the issue objectively. But often times the delay in responding usually
aggravates the customer a little more. Such is the burden for the 'smaller
shops' where only one or two people take care of everything from writing the
code, to providing support to making the coffee and sweeping the floors.

~~~
zem
if they had even just said "you are a jerk and no one in this company is paid
enough to deal with you; here's how to return your device for a full refund
and here is a list of our least favourite competitors for all your internet-
of-shit needs" i would have been 100% on their side. effectively bricking his
device was beyond the pale, and says that you can't trust them to control your
gadget from their servers.

~~~
dqv
He did that though? I guess he didn't give them full instructions, but he did
effectively tell the consumer to return to Amazon.

>At this time your only option is return Garadget to Amazon for refund. Your
unit ID 2f0036... will be denied server connection.

~~~
cgag
You can't really break someone's shit and tell them you'll give them a refund
once they ship it back to you.

Or at least you shouldn't be able to without being liable to be sued.

------
Hydraulix989
I can't decide whether this is legal or not.

I am closer to siding _with_ Garadget in that as a private business, they
don't HAVE to provide a service to someone (and it looks pretty obvious that
there was no particular discrimination or the like); in fact, they have the
right to refuse service.

That said, the person also DID purchase a physical item (in fact, Garadget
probably should have refunded them first, just basing this off my own personal
ethical point-of-view).

That said, if a negative Amazon review IS the real reason (it looks like there
was a bit more to it), then this COULD also backfire as bad publicity. Do
other people want to give their business to someone who in the past has
refused service to someone solely on the basis of a bad review?

I've left negative Yelp reviews and tweets before in earnest to those that I
think deserve them, and while I genuinely won't be giving anyone repeat
business after I've been prompted to review them, I would be even more upset
if I _was_ refused service on the basis of my reviews.

As you can see, businesses seem to really try to find out who has personally
left negative reviews, so I'm sure they all know who I am. That said, I
personally don't swear in any of my negative reviews, I try to keep them
constructive.

~~~
walid
I think it should be illegal. Frame it in terms of a burger. If McDonald's
says "since you say our food is bad we're messing with your burger after you
bought it and we'll give you your money back if you return it" that would be
illegal and probably, not sure though, a form of discrimination.

~~~
victorhooi
McDonalds is well within their rights to deny service to a customer (assuming
it's not discrimination).

In fact I've seen them (and other restaurants) do this first hand.

A customer is being abusive, or giving the poor checkout person a hard time -
if they get abusive or threatening, the manager will often intercede and tell
them to leave the store.

Likewise, I used to work in a electronics store - if a customer is a being a
jerk, you're well within rights to ask them to leave (politely). Obviously
it's the nuclear option - but there's definitely precedent for it.

~~~
pherq
"Denying service" in those cases is not conducting any further sales/etc with
them.

It's not remotely disabling things they've _previously_ bought from you.

That's quite a different kettle of fish.

~~~
Hydraulix989
To be clear, the Garadget was _not_ remotely disabled (or bricked).

~~~
sheldonhelms
Here's a direct quote from the manufacturer to the customer:

"At this time your only option is to return Garadget to Amazon for refund.
Your unit ID 210036...will be denied server connection."

How is that not being bricked?

