

Ask HN: explain to me what piracy isn't - donnyg107

Right off the bat: I don't support SOPA, I think it is detestable on constitutional grounds and that its existence reflects irresponsibly uninformed and one-sided decision making on the part of congress.<p>That said, I need some clarity on the hacker side of things. I'm a new computer science student, I love startups, and did the "I'm gonna start this awesome startup with my friend even though neither of us is technical" thing back in high school (with typical failure to move past drafting tons of "Business Models"). That said, I like to be involved with the startup culture and work to understand how hackers think.<p>But what I just don't get, is why piracy does not equal theft. I just don't get it. I see tons and tons of people talking about why piracy isn't theft because the object is duplicated, so it isn't taken from the owner, but I don't fully see the flow in that. Musicians have always sold copies, but piracy is taking one without paying for it. The thing that the musician lost is their revenue, or the economic costs of production which they expect to make back. That seems like theft.<p>And the argument that we can't prevent duplication and that the music industry needs to expect it almost sounds lazy, and seems to neglects the music industry almost as much as SOPA neglects the rights of web sites. I think that I just don't understand what solution the idea of "piracy is a reality" poses. That flow never really sat well with me either.<p>Now I am not so brazen as to assume that I've got it right when a sizable community seems to believe otherwise, but I need this laid out, and I think that creating clear and understandable ideologies beyond "This is unforgivable let us do battle" can be a positive exercise for the HN community. So, somebody out there, anyone out there, please tell me why the status quo is ok, why piracy isn't theft, or why my conceptions are all backwards and wrong. I should lose all of my 22 karma within 10 minutes because my misconceptions are being laid out and taken to school. I just need this clarified so I can understand not just that the corporations and SOPA are the worst thing ever, but that we can do much better, and that there is a reasonably collective counter-ideology.<p>Now I've got my own ideas about what should be done and how the system could ultimately be repaired, but I didn't scream those at you, so keep the responses ideological please. And always honest.<p>If you want to do the most good, email me directly at dondg111@gmail.com. And If you want to do the second to most, include what you think the correct ideology pertaining to intellectual property ought to be in your comment.
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richieb
Musicians have not always sold copies of anything. Recordings that can be sold
are a relatively new technology (20th century). Musicians and artists worked
on commissions or got paid for their performances. In fact today very few
musicians make much money from selling recordings (talk to any jazz musician
about it).

As far as lost revenue. When I drive a fuel efficient car that uses less gas,
am I stealing? After all I am depriving the oil companies of revenues.

------
viraptor
It's not theft because theft is defined as something completely different.
Piracy is Copyright infrigement which was already tried.

I'm not going to say it's not illegal - it is. I have no problem with it being
illegal, but I do have problems with how it's redefined as the "big corp
publisher" sees fit. At various times "piracy" meant among other things:

\- playing purchased media on a different player than designed by the
publisher

\- playing purchased media in a different country

\- making own copy for private use on a different device, or in a different
format

\- breaking disk protection so you don't have to use publisher's spyware

\- buying used media from previous owner

\- downloading albums from internet if you already own the cds

\- using/printing/copying purchased item more than X times (when this fact is
not stated in big red letters on the outer packaging)

\- downloading a copy of some album/book/... if they are not legally sold in
your country and cannot be obtained easily enough (for example
distributor/producer not shipping items from japan to europe, or country-
specific "bonus tracks" on albums you otherwise own)

\- using abandonware

I remember at least one article claiming each of those to be "piracy" (apart
from the last point, which actually is a copyright infrigement now, but i
believe shouldn't be). I believe each of those points should be completely
legal and are valid use cases, but many publishers claim otherwise.

Also you make the common mistake of "The thing that the musician lost is their
revenue". No - they have not lost anything yet. I might actually like the
album which is why I'll buy it later. That's what happened with all albums I
have. I download it, if it survives a couple of days without deletion, I'm
most likely going to buy it. I'm not going to claim it's currently legal, but
unless you're into mega mixes of whoever's on top in pop right now, you've got
little chance to check if you really want the whole cd. At least in UK with
very limitted choice of on-demand streaming.

Re abandonware, availability and country-specific items. I don't care how
"illegal" it is. If I can't buy Samla mammas manna albums from '70s then
noone's losing anything here. Same with anime which is not dubbed - I'd pay
for subbed version, but for whatever reason it's not sold here and I'm
allergic to bad dubbing. Bonus tracks are self-explanatory I hope.

------
benologist
Piracy is the future of course - musicians and performers and actors and
writers etc are embracing a dying business model and should seek revenue
elsewhere, either by selling tshirts or spending months on the road away from
their friends and families performing live or by just accepting that 1% paying
pennies online is better than 100% paying dollars.

It's not theft because it's just 1s and 0s, not real work like what _we_ do.

The view from our comfy pedestals, safe in the knowledge that our web
applications can't be effortlessly copied, is not at all flawed!

~~~
BrandonMTurner
If it is "just 1s and 0s", does this mean making desktop software is also 'not
real work'? And thus, copying desktop software is also not problem just as
copying music is not a problem. And programmers should go find a new way to
make money that is not developing and selling desktop software?

~~~
benologist
Programmers already did - complete, mandatory binding to online services
because your user account / subscription can't be distributed like the
software.

------
chrisbennet
IMO, piracy _is_ theft. The way I was raised, taking something that isn't
yours without permission is stealing. If you feel bad thinkng of yourself as a
thief, you come up with rationalizations as to why stealing is OK. Here are
some popular ones:

"That store is overcharging/doing something bad/is a big corporation so they
deserve to have their stuff stolen."

"They are using the _wrong word_ (pirate) to describe my stealing so even
though I'm still stealing and I know what they mean by that word, since I'm
not doing what they say I'm doing I'm not (technically) a pirate.

"I think what they are selling should be free so it is alright for me to steal
it."

------
dustingetz
here's a start:
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright_infringement#.22Theft...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright_infringement#.22Theft.22)

