
Hong Kong: books by pro-democracy activists disappear from library shelves - baylearn
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/jul/05/hong-kong-books-by-pro-democracy-activists-disappear-from-library-shelves
======
Aqua
Isn't it surprising that Microsoft, Apple, Google, Netflix, Blizzard and
others don't express their deep regret and support the people of Hong Kong? If
they really stood by their values they would act in the same way as they did
by supporting the BLM movement. It's just another proof that they only did
that to get press coverage for being "benevolent" and not because they
genuinely supported the people. Disgraceful.

~~~
arkades
Did you at some point think that the corporate leadership of a massive for-
profit organization was going to make a public statement that was anything
_other_ than the bare minimum lip service they were required to pay in order
to weather the PR storm of the day, so that they could continue doing
business?

The answer to that question is almost always "no," and certainly until proven
otherwise. Complaining that these corporate PR statements are anything other
than lip service is like complaining that the world isn't fair, or that
everyone dies. Perhaps a sad truth, but one you should've figured out by the
time you turned twelve.

Corollary: corporations are not hypocrites, either, because corporations don't
hold beliefs. They make PR statements. Their belief is "I will say what I need
to in order to be left in peace to maximize profits." Any corporate leader
that doesn't hold to that will be replaced by someone that does, either
proximally (by the board and shareholders) or ultimately (by one day landing
on the wrong side of idealogy and getting outcompeted by organizations that
weather the storms more nimbly.)

~~~
Adverblessly
I agree that this is the behaviour displayed by (almost?) all large
corporations and thus that expecting that they will behave differently is
irrational, in the sense that that expectation will always turn out to be
false.

That said, I don't see why that means we should expect that behaviour in the
sense that we should consider this the expected, correct, behvaiour from
corporations.

Perhaps if everyone believed that moral and ethical behaviour from
corporations should be the expectation and not just a fairytale for <12 year
olds we'd actually see that behaviour in the world. If everyone was like OP in
condeming these corporations maybe their expectations would eventually become
real.

~~~
arkades
> If everyone was like OP in condeming these corporations maybe their
> expectations would eventually become real.

No, they wouldn't, because the selection pressure on the organization is for
the minimum amount of signaling required to optimize profits, not actual
morality - not least of which because optimizing for profits optimizes for
continued existence of the organization, and maximizing morality does not.
Holding them to a higher moral standard just changes the measure of "what is
the minimum amount of signaling required?" Selection pressure is unyielding -
values that don't affect survival ultimately don't matter, because however
much you like it, it will be competed out of existence.

Nor could an organization exhibit actual morality, because an organization
doesn't have continuity of thought or policy - flip a few board members,
change an executive team, and the people whose judgement comprises "the
company's judgement" just changed entirely. It would be like discussing the
morality of a robot which regularly swapped the brain it contains.

You're making the same category error as the previous poster: describing
"corporation" as a noun that has a characteristic known as "morality," and
then lamenting the amount of "morality" we expect from it.

Morality is for people. Profit-seeking institutions don't have morality - they
have regulatory constraints on profit-seeking avenues. Tricking people into
thinking corporations have the former is a jedi mind trick: keep people
focused on controlling corporations with the same social censure mechanisms
that work _on people_ means you're not focusing your time and effort on the
mechanisms of control _that would actually work on corporations_.

It's like a red dragon walking around talking about oh, gosh, how much his
sunburn hurts. He's immune to fire; put away the torches and focus on
something that might actually work.

~~~
tobtoh
> If everyone was like OP in condeming these corporations maybe their
> expectations would eventually become real.

>> No, they wouldn't, because the selection pressure on the organization is
for the minimum amount of signaling required to optimize profits, not actual
morality - not least of which because optimizing for profits optimizes for
continued existence of the organization, and maximizing morality does not.

But if everyone condemned corporations (assuming that translates into
consumers not purchasing their products), then that becomes the selection
criteria impacting their profit.

So whilst your point that the corporations don't hold 'real' moral positions
is fine, the OP would appear to be also correct in their assertion that
condemnation will push a corporation to take a moral position (or pseudo-moral
position if you want) and their expectations would eventually become real.

------
eloff
It was very clever of China to tighten their grip on Hong Kong while the world
is distracted with the pandemic, and the US is further distracted with its own
issues. Well played. I hope it backfires on them.

~~~
ttul
This is one part of a several act drama that is playing out for the home
audience. Reign in the disobedient teenager (Hong Kong) by taking his
skateboard away. Act two is a military provocation, which is why the US has
moved more hardware into the area.

~~~
systemvoltage
US should equip Taiwan with nuclear weapons for deterrance. Should there be
invasion en-masse, deep in the mountains of Taiwan there would be nuclear
weapons ready to strike.

Nuclear weapons are great to keep peace in the region.

~~~
microcolonel
How do we get people from their gut reaction to this, to realizing that it is
the most likely path toward lasting peace?

~~~
systemvoltage
First step would be for all democracies in the world to recognize Taiwan as an
independent country assertively and unilaterlly without CCP influence.

That alone is difficult due to manufacturing dependence on China.

------
chadcmulligan
How is it that many Chinese students are schooled in the west, and have access
to all these books and thoughts, but then they don't exist when they go back
home. There must be some significant cognitive dissonance between the two
situations. I don't see how they can keep a lid on this long term.

~~~
hkt
I imagine the effects will take some time to filter through, but yeah, a
generation of the Chinese elite being schooled in the west seems likely to
have a pretty profound impact. I suppose this is part of the west's gambit in
being so open to international students generally.

On the other hand, the Chinese community at universities in my city includes
many who don't speak English or try to interact with the locals. There are
paper mills designed to get people through the English language requirements
if they can pay the right price, the worst of which appear to do nothing but
basic hellos and thank yous. It seems unlikely that the majority of Chinese
students will have westernised to any great extent, going on what happens
here.

~~~
Ericson2314
The British and German elite also intermingled because the world wars, it's
not enough.

Basically, if the masses don't know about the either country, and the elites
are tempted by power (it's nicer to _make_ the propaganda than receive it,
plus their economic prospects are better in China) and knowing they don't have
to fight in wars themselves, it's not good enough.

Also, as much as I truly believe in the west's values of free speech and
democracy, one needs to understand the fundamental pessimism and decline of
the US vs the optimism and ascension of China. Oh, and the use US absolutely
could not win a non-nuclear war against China, for example.

~~~
chadcmulligan
There are other democracies besides the US, and they're all doing fine in
general. Our PM recently pointed out in a speech [1], that maybe the US
couldn't beat them alone, but Aus, Japan, Phillipines, India, Indonesia, Korea
and the US could probably have a good shot at it, all countries China is
picking fights with, not that I think its likely, just saber rattling -
there's no profit for China in a war, just loss of customers.

[1] [https://www.news.com.au/technology/innovation/military/we-
wi...](https://www.news.com.au/technology/innovation/military/we-will-never-
surrender-scott-morrisons-deliberate-words-of-war-during-defence-boost-
speech/news-story/fa78d11c4a09a60dbc910d1611d861e5)

Edit: personally I think it more likely they'll just raise the bamboo curtain
again - they don't seem very interested in any sort of cultural interchange.

~~~
justicezyx
How was China picking fight on "Aus, Japan, Phillipines, India, Indonesia"

Philippines and Indonesia are the target of picking fight on the islands at
South China Sea.

I have no idea China is initiating fight with India Australia or Japan.

~~~
chadcmulligan
There's been a huge fight with Australia - I was wondering if its known in
other countries, Australia said there should be an international investigation
into the origin of the coronavirus, a fairly reasonable expectation. The
result - has been a disproportionate attack - tariffs applied to Australian
exports, Students advised not to study in Australia, Australia has decided to
double defence spending, and sell stuff to other countries where possible.

Japan is having similar disputes as Philipines and Indonesia.

------
hkai
Two things are true at the same time:

\- Hong Kong's rule of law has disappeared;

\- The books in question are written by pretty radical young revolutionaries.

Personally I am more concerned that libraries in Hong Kong seem to keep less
and less books in the local version of Chinese and more books written in
Simplified Chinese used in Mainland China.

It's like if you are in California and suddenly half of the books in your
library are in Russian instead of English or Spanish.

~~~
justicezyx
Traditional Chinese are quite consistent with simplified one.

I think you ought to say English and Spanish are replaced by British English
and European Spanish?

~~~
wodenokoto
I always thought that most books written with traditional script in Hong Kong
would be written in Cantonese, while the simplified would be in mandarin.
These are quite different languages.

~~~
moonchild
Cantonese and mandarin share a script.

~~~
eloisius
Not only a script but also the same written language - Standard Chinese,
unless it was very colloquially written Cantonese. That's part of what's so
fascinating about Chinese. There are so many dialects that are quite different
when spoken, but share the same written language.

------
lisardo
"Dort wo man Bücher verbrennt, verbrennt man auch am Ende Menschen." \-
Wherever they burn books, in the end will also burn human beings. Heinrich
Heine

~~~
jansan
What do you say about classic literature being banned from classrooms because
people were unable to see the content in the context of the time it was
written?

~~~
praptak
I see it as an order of magnitude less dangerous than censorship at the
library level.

~~~
jansan
Here is an extensive list of frequently challenged and banned books

[http://www.ala.org/advocacy/bbooks/frequentlychallengedbooks...](http://www.ala.org/advocacy/bbooks/frequentlychallengedbooks/classics)

Some school libraries appear to be being very active on banning certain books.

~~~
praptak
Bigoted parents challenging a book in a school library is not comparable to a
state using law to intimidate public libraries into removing books.

------
737min
Hong Kong is the freedom and civil rights issue of this generation. There
should be protests and boycotts in every US city about this, instead it barely
receives coverage...

~~~
GuB-42
What is so special about Hong-Kong? It is a territorial dispute, it happens
often in the world, and there are not protests and boycotts every time it
happens.

Just look at the Wikipedia page here, it is quite long:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_territorial_disputes](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_territorial_disputes)

And for Honk-Kong, we already know how it will end. Hong-Kong will become part
of mainland China in 2047, that's the deal. That's unless China changes its
mind, which is unlikely.

The way the US treats the Hong-Kong case is not "a freedom and civil rights
issue". It is for Hongkongers, but for the US, it reeks of a proxy war. The US
doesn't like China, but they can't fight directly, so instead, they support
Hongkongers who oppose China.

~~~
737min
It is special in the same way as other cases of smaller, more free places
being taken over by stronger, less free regimes. US and “the West” supporting
freedom and civil rights in such circumstances is both the right thing to do
and the usual policy. The fact that oppression of Hong Kong (in violation of
agreements, btw) not more of an issue for the US public is the only special
thing here - it should be.

------
terenceng2010
It's worth to mention that some of these books have been published quite some
years already (>5 years) , and their viewpoint for democracy is rather mild
too. That's why they can be on the bookshelf in the first place.

------
mensetmanusman
The world has already spoken: Money is more important than human rights.

~~~
praptak
The Moloch from the Slate Star Codex has spoken. As a corporation you can
support human rights but you'll get outcompeted by the less scrupulous actors.
In theory the government could step in to solve this coordination problem, but
it is also subject to the coordination problem. Other governments willing to
throw human rights under the bus will reap the economic benefits of
cooperation with China.

~~~
hkt
There's a big, untapped market for "ethical" that doesn't receive enough
capital. I for one would pay for a fairtrade certified laptop. No such laptop
exists at present, although there are phones (FairPhone) that fit the bill.

------
kohtatsu
This post is incredibly downmodded on the front page.

~~~
baylearn
Interesting. I took a screen snapshot of the front page:
[https://imgur.com/gallery/thY5Tl6](https://imgur.com/gallery/thY5Tl6)

Compared to #1 and #2 ranked posts, which have half the upvotes, but uploaded
within the same hour or two, this post is ranked #19.

Maybe many people are "flag"-ing the post so the HN ranking algorithm pushes
it lower.

(Edit: For the record, I don't believe the HN mods are doing any downmodding
here, and it's probably just due to the ranking algorithm and behavior of the
HN audience)

~~~
jbay808
I've been surprised by the absence of discourse about HK on HN over the past
week, given the magnitude of what's going on there and its relevance to this
forum's interests. Meanwhile, relatively trivial articles are holding the
front page for days.

~~~
input_sh
Mods often suppress anything remotely political in order to keep the forum
"civil". It's one of the aspects of this forum that I personally dislike.

~~~
yborg
It's a tech forum, not a general discussion board. It's a courtesy they leave
these topics with zero tech content at all. There are a million places to
engage in current events discussion, not every place needs to be filled with
the same echo chamber cacophony all the time.

~~~
jbay808
The evolving legal status of Hong Kong is extremely relevant to tech,
especially hardware tech.

------
lr4444lr
Question to the people who disapprove of this but who endorse the top down
language policing as endorsed by Twitter Eng.: Why does this bother you and
not that?

~~~
EliRivers
While I'm not them and can't answer for them, I wonder if they see a
qualitative difference between a government who will come round to your house
and vanish you from the face of the earth for saying things in private to your
friends, and a private corporation not letting you use their tools.

------
malloryerik
Does anyone have an informed idea of what effect the new law may have on the
South China Morning Post? [https://www.scmp.com/](https://www.scmp.com/)

~~~
RavlaAlvar
No, since the paper is now owned by the Chinese tech billionaire Jack Ma.

------
loughnane
Is there a list of some of these books?

~~~
cZGuJ7g7
[https://news.mingpao.com/pns/%E8%A6%81%E8%81%9E/article/2020...](https://news.mingpao.com/pns/%E8%A6%81%E8%81%9E/article/20200705/s00001/1593885502126/%E5%9C%96%E6%9B%B8%E9%A4%A8%E5%B0%B1%E6%96%B0%E4%BE%8B%E8%A6%86%E6%AA%A29%E6%94%BF%E6%B2%BB%E6%9B%B8-%E6%B6%89%E9%99%B3%E9%9B%B2-%E9%BB%83%E4%B9%8B%E9%8B%92-%E9%99%B3%E6%B7%91%E8%8E%8A%E8%88%8A%E4%BD%9C-%E6%9D%8E%E7%AB%8B%E5%B3%AF%E8%B3%AA%E7%96%91%E3%80%8C%E6%86%91%E4%BD%95%E6%BA%96%E5%89%87%E5%88%A4%E6%96%B7%E3%80%8D)

The newspaper searched the catalogue of the Hong Kong Public Library
yesterday. At least 9 books were listed as "under review". The former
assistant professor of the Chinese Department of Lingnan University, Chen Yun,
had six books, Huang Zhifeng had two books, and Chen Shuzhuang had one. This
(see picture). There are a total of 379 books in the collection of 9 books, of
which the most is "Hong Kong City-State Theory II Restoration of the Native
Land: Restoration of the Native Land, Fan Huaxia, is the only way out for Hong
Kong. There are 76 books in 58 pavilions; in addition, "Hong Kong City-State
Theory: One Country, Two Systems, City-State Autonomy" is a matter of life and
death in Hong Kong. 》It also occupies 73 books, spread over 55 pavilions.

[https://www.thenewslens.com/article/137304](https://www.thenewslens.com/article/137304)

According to the report of "Hong Kong 01", at least 9 books are temporarily
unavailable, including "Hong Kong City-State Theory", "Hong Kong City-State
Theory 2", "Body of the Earth" written by Chen Yun, a former assistant
professor of the Chinese Department of Lingnan University, "Hong Kong Defence
War", "City State Sovereignty" and "Hong Kong Adherents' Theory"; "I am not a
hero" and "I am not a fine road: around 18" by Huang Zhifeng, former secretary
general of "Hong Kong People's Comrades" Legislative Councillor Chen
Shuzhuang's "Walk While Eating and Fight" The report said that the total
number of nine books involved in the "review" in various libraries in Hong
Kong is more than 400.

------
dikaio
The only way to force US companies make a choice is to boycott them here
locally.

------
foobar_
Intra-party democracy is alright. Unabobmers manifesto or the school shooters
manifesto or IRA manifestos are not exactly available in the libraries.

~~~
jumelles
[https://www.worldcat.org/title/technological-slavery-the-
col...](https://www.worldcat.org/title/technological-slavery-the-collected-
writings-of-theodore-j-kaczynski-aka-the-unabomber/oclc/932177324)

[https://www.worldcat.org/title/handbook-for-volunteers-of-
th...](https://www.worldcat.org/title/handbook-for-volunteers-of-the-irish-
republican-army-notes-on-guerrilla-warfare/oclc/1043126119)

[https://scholarworks.waldenu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article...](https://scholarworks.waldenu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=4596&context=dissertations)

------
runawaybottle
This is what Steam looks like in China, if you’re wondering how crazy they’ve
really gotten:

[https://cdn--images-win-gg.cdn.ampproject.org/ii/w820/s/cdn-...](https://cdn
--images-win-gg.cdn.ampproject.org/ii/w820/s/cdn-
images.win.gg/news/e7023ba77a45f7e84c5ee8a28dd63585/1bf3ebf3aefb9744a3f52cc82326fd7b/original.jpg)

------
mrobot
Important to note that the US Agency for Global Media was funding and
supporting the Hong Kong protests [1]. China could never get away with doing
the same thing in the US.

The fact is that media bubbles are a powerful tool. There is a reason the US /
CIA spend so much time/money on projects like Radio Free Asia. If you are on
the same side as the CIA and US imperialism, you might want to think about why
that is and what kind of harm you are causing with your jingoistic posts. The
US media is carefully controlled and an opinion-making bubble of its own. Yes,
many Chinese people support their government and it's not because they are
duped, actually.

[1] [https://www.scmp.com/comment/opinion/article/3091438/us-
has-...](https://www.scmp.com/comment/opinion/article/3091438/us-has-been-
exposed-funding-last-years-hong-kong-protests)

~~~
njrc9
Thank you for linking the article. I had never heard of the US Agency for
Global Media before. I have not read that much about it yet but it sounds in
line with some of the criticisms Chomsky levels at U.S. propaganda. I would be
very interested in any other sources of information you might recommend on
this topic or hearing more of your own thoughts (my email is in my profile).

~~~
cvlasdkv
I'd recommend reading: [https://liberationschool.org/tiananmen-the-massacre-
that-was...](https://liberationschool.org/tiananmen-the-massacre-that-wasnt/)
as well as the WikiLeaks documents and draw your own conclusions. CBS, NYT,
and many other American sources all also do not report this "massacre" yet I
recall it being in my textbooks and it being "common knowledge".

It's become impossible for me to trust the US on anything domestic much less
China. I'd hoped for much better from HN but it seems the critical lens is not
being applied as much as a xenophobic one. :(

~~~
njrc9
Thank you very much for the suggested readings. Recommendations like yours are
very appreciated since I find it difficult to find such content via the usual
means of discovery on the internet. I read through the first article. That and
similar critical writings certainly make one doubt much of what one has
learned and hears...

~~~
xster
Now that Glenn Greenwald has been marginalized at The Intercept which produces
really inconsistent articles these days, I find the Grayzone is excellent for
doing investigative journalism.

Some sampling [https://thegrayzone.com/2020/04/01/us-conspiracy-theory-
on-c...](https://thegrayzone.com/2020/04/01/us-conspiracy-theory-on-china-
coronavirus-trump/)

[https://thegrayzone.com/2020/03/26/forced-labor-china-us-
nat...](https://thegrayzone.com/2020/03/26/forced-labor-china-us-nato-arms-
industry-cold-war/)

[https://thegrayzone.com/2020/03/05/world-uyghur-congress-
us-...](https://thegrayzone.com/2020/03/05/world-uyghur-congress-us-far-right-
regime-change-network-fall-china/)

[https://thegrayzone.com/2019/12/21/china-detaining-
millions-...](https://thegrayzone.com/2019/12/21/china-detaining-millions-
uyghurs-problems-claims-us-ngo-researcher/)

[https://thegrayzone.com/2019/09/30/reports-china-organ-
harve...](https://thegrayzone.com/2019/09/30/reports-china-organ-harvesting-
cult-falun-gong/)

[https://thegrayzone.com/2018/08/23/un-did-not-report-
china-i...](https://thegrayzone.com/2018/08/23/un-did-not-report-china-
internment-camps-uighur-muslims/)

~~~
njrc9
Thank you very much! I will check out their website.

