
Boeing docs show staffers discussing ways to manipulate regulators on 737 Max - pseudolus
https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/trafficandcommuting/internal-boeing-documents-show-employees-discussing-efforts-to-mani/2020/01/09/83a0c6ec-334f-11ea-91fd-82d4e04a3fac_story.html
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mhandley
This article has the actual email and chat transcripts (scroll down to the
bottom): [https://www.theverge.com/2020/1/9/21059420/boeing-
employees-...](https://www.theverge.com/2020/1/9/21059420/boeing-employees-
messages-737-max-investigation-simulator-crash)

Most of the discussion is about the 737 Max simulator, not the aircraft
itself. Page 19 seems particularly damning.

~~~
sytse
Except from page 19 done with OCR:

Sent: 20 February 2017 12:22 To: r 13)boeinn com> Subject: REr—r. 777 ECL COC
update request Fly home today — having the kitchen replaced on Thursday
through to Friday next week L Amazing what a brown envelope can achieve — it
isn't anywhere near as good as it would appear to be reading the report. The
FAA were neither thorough nor demanding and failed to write up marry issues.
And the lies, the damned lies — I was removed from the simulator for three
days in the week leading up to the evaluation on the instructions of a Senior
Manager so that certainly individuals could 'tune' with the pilot. The tiring
then fouled up multiple QTG tests and was clearly wrong and the pilot was
forced to sign a SoC that was clearly based on a lie. Another Senior Manager
was also screamed at in a temper tantrum by said individual and also barred
from the simulator. The Go/No Go decision comes along and then aforementioned
Senior Manager and Senor Engineer then state to a cast of 30 —"we have to
trust the decision of ti ]on Site". Needless to say, I tore straight into
riland E.1117171about the lies and the unethicaticleceiffd nature of this
comment as it meant I was set up to take the blame should it have gone wrong.
It is a joke and nothing more — whilst 9 PMs were on Site last week during the
evaluation, it was for a jolly/free meal. One PM even said that given that we
are tiler budget, we should hire a yacht a sail around Miami harbour to
celebrate and even asked submit the request...

~~~
DoofusOfDeath
I guess this is a reminder of how useful "CYA" emails can be.

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jacobush
_“Looks like my jedi mind trick worked again!”_ the pilot wrote. _“These are
not the droids you’re looking for.”_

Pretty bold culture over there. (When talking about putting pressure on
regulators to not demand simulator training for the MAX.)

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bambax
The 737 Max fiasco is a tragedy and these emails are damning.

That said, it's likely one could find similar remarks in other high pressure /
high stakes situations; what we would need to see to know, are other email
exchanges regarding other plane certification processes.

~~~
giarc
I think in any large organization, you are going to find people that think
like this/talk like this. These emails are bad and the culture definitely
needs to change, but who hasn't heard someone refer to their manager as a
clown? No matter how good or bad your boss is, sometimes people are just going
to complain.

"this airplane is designed by clowns, who in turn are supervised by monkeys."

~~~
JohnFen
> who hasn't heard someone refer to their manager as a clown?

I have never personally heard anyone do this in writing, even when their
manager _was_ a clown. But I'm sure that I'm the exception, not the rule.

~~~
coleca
I think (based on seeing how many of these types of messages are coming up in
discovery in recent cases) that many people these days don't think of "text
messages" (email, SMS, WhatsApp, Slack, FB, you name it) qualify as "in
writing". Doubtful most people would dare write a printed memo and sign their
name to it with the same content that they would write in a text or email.

~~~
JohnFen
True, but when I said "in writing", I meant including various instant
messaging and email.

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JohnFen
This reinforces that my decision to avoid flying on the Max until it has been
in service for at least a few years is the right one.

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busterarm
Murder charges. Jail time.

This must happen.

~~~
GuB-42
No one wanted people to die, it is not murder, at worst it is involuntary
manslaughter. And maybe justice will come down to that conclusion and some
people will end up in jail.

But is it the solution? Is it what should be done?

Because if people are going to jail, then who? There are probably hundreds of
people who have some responsibility. There are the higher ups who encourage
such behavior, those who are a bit too liberal with the rubber stamp, the
liars, the ones who trust the liars even if it is their job not to, the ones
who failed to report, the one who didn't listen for the reports, the engineers
who designed the solution, and of course, the pilots, the flight
instructors,... There are enough people for an entire prison city here.

This is not a case we can solve by pointing fingers. There is a systemic
problem that needs to be solved. And just throwing a few people in prison will
just result in Boeing hiring new scapegoats.

~~~
sebastien_b
> No one wanted people to die, it is not murder, at worst it is involuntary
> manslaughter >

Try again - more like criminal negligence at a minimum.

> But is it the solution? Is it what should be done?

Yes - there needs to be some serious consequences, not the usual typical
'Company shuts down, execs get huge severance while whistleblowers and
investors get shafted' type thing.

Also, some heads at the FAA need to roll. Utter failure of an agency that's
supposed to protect the public.

And I also hope the victims' families also sue for pain and suffering, because
they're victims of this too.

~~~
GuB-42
Involuntary manslaughter implies criminal negligence or some other crime being
committed. Otherwise it is just an accident.

And I am not against the idea of serious consequences, the problem is about
whose heads are going to roll?

It is easy to blame the executives, they are high profile, they are rich, they
are the kind of people we like to hate. But are they really at fault, execs
are just employees serving the shareholders, and if you have Boeing stocks in
your portfolio, then you are a shareholder, so maybe you should go to jail.

And what will happen if the CEO goes to jail? The board of directors will name
a new scapegoat CEO, there are many people who are ready to risk jail time in
exchange for being the CEO at Boeing...

Same thing about the FAA, except that's more about the politicians you elected
than about the shares you bought...

Putting a few high profile people in prison will certainly appease some
vindictive minds, but I don't want vengeance, I just want safer airplanes. And
as someone mentioned, they are already impressively safe despite all these
shenanigans.

As for the victims' families, of course they should be compensated. But I
don't think putting random people in jail is the best way to do it.

I am not saying that no one should go to jail. Some people most likely
committed real jailable offenses, like corruption, and they should get
punished. But making some heads roll for the sake of it isn't a good solution
in my book.

~~~
sebastien_b
> and if you have Boeing stocks in your portfolio, then you are a shareholder,
> so maybe you should go to jail.

Personally, I'm not opposed to that type of thing happening - I always thought
a company being "public" is an oxymoron, since they only serve the
shareholders (just look how Facebook prefers to serve its shareholders/execs
over democracy... but I digress). If you can't fund terrorist organizations
without consequences, then I think there should be equal consequences when
your demands for your share values compromise the safety of society. Also,
might cause people to keep the companies 'in check' if their own butts were on
the line too... But that'd be another whole discussion for another time...

The whole point of consequences is to discourage future bad behaviour: "Wow,
that guy's and his family's life is ruined now! Shit, I don't want the same
thing to happen to me, I'd better be more careful than he was!". But if all
anyone gets is a slap on the wrist, or find a scapegoat, then really what's
the point of laws (especially when a nobody gets years in jail for a minor
crime, but some high-profile execs can charm/buy their way out with little
consequences).

More and more of this reveals that there was very little "involuntary" things
happening - they were _quite_ deliberate in what they did, and knew what they
were doing wasn't on the "up and up" and compromised safety (with even someone
saying "I wouldn't fly on one of those!").

~~~
xtracto
They should apply eminent domain to shareholders and then auction the
confiscated stock.

That way the government (society) gets something, and shareholders in general
would be more cautious of the crap they invest into.

~~~
quickthrowman
If you own any US equity large cap index funds, then you own Boeing stock.

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lefty2
I wonder if Boeing could have edited the documents before passing them on the
authorities, or even "losing" some emails, if there was something really
incriminating.

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dboreham
And this is what they said in written communications, where there's a common
understanding that the content may later be widely shared, published on CNN
etc.

