
Elon Musk sub 'impractical', won't be used - oldgradstudent
http://www.khaosodenglish.com/news/2018/07/10/elon-musk-sub-impractical-wont-be-used/
======
robryan
It is possible to both do good and generate positive PR.

If he was getting in the way or come uninvited would be one thing, but other
than that nothing wrong with an extra option.

Rich and well known people can’t win really. They get criticised for helping
and also criticised for not bailing out bad government policy.

~~~
untog
> Rich and well known people can’t win really

Counter-argument: they are already winning, and will continue to win until the
day they die. I think the obscenely rich can cope with a small ding to the ego
every now and then.

~~~
sawmurai
Don’t treat people differently based on their financial situation

~~~
stnmtn
But think of the mega-ultra-rich billionaire's feelings!

~~~
jagermo
"Billionaires are people, too. We are leaders in technology, in industry, in
finance. Look at history. Do you know who else vilified a tiny minority of
financiers and progressive thinkers called the Jews?"

~ Gavin Belson

------
lingz
On one hand it's nice to see the valley: 'let's solve this' attitude. On the
other hand, it's common to see them blinded by hubris, resulting in problem
solving approaches divorced from reality.

~~~
antris
Weird to see comments like this. Elon Musk was asked to help, he agreed to
come there and now people talk about "hubris" as if he had tried to force his
help on them?

Can't famous people even help kids stuck in a cave without someone criticizing
them for it?

~~~
learnstats2
>Can't famous people even help kids stuck in a cave without someone
criticizing them for it?

Yes, easily:

1\. Don't press release (or tweet); treat what you are doing with
confidentiality.

2\. Actually help in a way that's helpful.

Here's a good example [http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2018/01/15/george-michael-
secretly...](http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2018/01/15/george-michael-secretly-
donated-500000-to-hiv-aids-charity/)

~~~
antris
1) If someone is helping, I don't give a ---- what they say about it. Actions
speak louder than words. People criticizing Musk probably haven't lifted a
finger themselves to help the kids.

2) How do you know if Musk's help wasn't helpful? Do you work at the rescue
site?

~~~
InitialLastName
I think the criticism of Musk is exactly that the words spoke louder than the
actions.

Very few of the people criticising Musk had the ability to do anything to help
the kids. He is in a rare situation to have the flexibility and resources to
make significant financial and/or logistical contributions to literally any
cause he notices. In this case, he did it in the most self-aggrandizing way
possible, while appearing to make no actual contribution.

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kraig911
Well I feel embarrassed for him. I genuinely think he wanted to help.

I guess it's like automated cars maybe? It'd save million's of lives but we're
so stuck on validating that it might not come in time.

~~~
jamesholden
He did nothing to be embarrassed about. He tried hard to quickly help out,
using his own resources, asking nothing in return. They started getting kids
out suddenly (after they already started on the sub), to take advantage of the
lower water levels.

I see nothing here that would embarrass him. He tried to do a kind thing. His
speed about it wasn't anything he had control over. To be honest though, they
built that thing fast as hell.

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jamesholden
Some comments I have read throughout the internet, tweets, etc, suggest that
he was too slow to react and that they had over half the kids out already etc.

Reminder that he started this when they were expecting them to be stuck there
possibly MONTHS. The rescue in action now was executed quite quickly and
surprisingly (to me), as they had said it could be a long term ordeal. The sub
too, was designed it to fit in the narrowest parts of the tunnel as well.

I think it's admirable he quickly got this put together and tested, and flew
it over to them as fast as he could.

Likewise, he was respectful and didn't take too much of their time or
resources when visiting.

I think he tried to do the right thing. He gave them an option that they
didn't have previously. If it's not used, so be it. If they had no other
options, then they would have another.

~~~
s2g
> and didn't take too much of their time or resources when visiting

No, why would he. He got what he wanted already.

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codeulike
It might have been useful. A week ago they were talking about the boys being
trapped for months. He'll get stick of course, but people suggested he might
be able to help and that's why he got involved.

~~~
emptyfile
Pretty sure most divers agreed it was way too dangerous. If there's barely
space in the cave for an adult diver then there's no space for a submarine.

~~~
codeulike
_... no space for a submarine._

Recent tweet from Musk on this subject:
[https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1016686032907931656](https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1016686032907931656)

 _Moreover, based on extensive cave video review & discussion with several
divers who know journey, SpaceX engineering is absolutely certain that mini-
sub can do entire journey_

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nichtich
I just couldn't understand why he thinks the container should be made of hard
metal. Sure maybe the current equipment like dry suit + full face mask has
limitations. But shouldn't the natural path be building on top of that? Why is
a hard long object that can't bend to fit through some narrow gaps, don't have
power and don't use the power of the human it contains, and much heavier, be
their go to solution?

~~~
mehrdadn
Remember he didn't have the luxury of time here. He'd have surely designed
something better if he had the chance to design, manufacture, and test it from
the ground-up, but I doubt there was enough time to do such a thing. He
probably tried to do the best with whatever he had at the time, on the off
chance it'd still be useful. So he took the pre-designed parts of his Falcon
rocket that could be useful and tried to use those.

Also see this comment:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17496684](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17496684)

~~~
ofrzeta
This is another reason why people like me are skeptic about that whole
"submarine" thing. Taking "pre-designed parts of his Falcon rocket" is ...
also a bit ridiculous.

If I were do design a rescue capsule getting a stainless steel pipe and
welding a flange to it or anything would be the least of my worries. You can
get stuff like that off-the-shelf with same-day delivery.

But surely a submarine made from Falcon parts makes for a nice myth or
headline.

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spdy
Musk is a "technology can save problems"-guy and his team got something done
in a short amount of time.

With all his involvements in the past years he likes to tackle complicated
technical problems (SpaceX) or use modern technology to disrupt a segment
(Tesla/Powergrid/Hyperloop).

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ofrzeta
Literal money quote: "Anuphong said the two spoke about helping the remaining
people out of the cave. He said Prayuth encouraged Musk to invest in the
country’s Eastern Economic Corridor. Musk then said he would return to
Thailand in the future."

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jonsen
What procedure do they actually use? I'd guess SEALs allready have standard
procedures for transpoting persons under water in difficult circumstances.
Secret procedures probably, so we might never know exactly how they do it.

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satysin
The people who like Musk will say he is doing good trying to help even if they
can't/won't use what he offers.

The people who dislike Musk will say he is using this awful event for PR and
such.

~~~
Lambdanaut
As it is with every politically charged event.

The truth in this case, and most similar cases, is "it's probabaly a little
bit of both".

Its a joke to think elon is the pure saint many hope him to be. It's also a
joke to think that he's just a rich selfish big-egoed businessman.

------
aplummer
Although I see the hubris point of view people here have, if oxygen dipped or
some other catastrophy and someone fell unconscious, they could have been in a
situation where this contraption was Useful.

People like to jump to black and white but maybe it’s shades of grey, some
hubris and also a chance of being genuinely helpful.

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senectus1
local Australian media is saying that the report that the kids cant swim was
wildly inaccurate, they even showed photos of the kids swimming with their
friends.

The "sub" was never really needed... but good on him anyway.

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jf-
I’m torn on whether this was a publicity stunt or not. If it was, it’s an
amazingly transparent one. That almost makes me think it was sincere, but
absurd. I don’t see how Musk et al score points either way.

~~~
Angostura
I think it's sincere and well intentioned 'here's a difficult, interesting
problem, lets put my big brain to work on out-of-the-box solutions'.

There _is_ touch of hubris, perhaps.

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thisisit
Interestingly I can't find the 'impractical' quote. Just found this one:

> His equipment is technologically complex and advanced, but we cannot bring
> it into the cave for this mission

~~~
NVRM
A simpler one: «we cannot bring it into the cave»

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baxter001
Just at the basic level of what the experience for these boys would have been
like, sealed in a metal cylinder and towed through the cave system for hours -
it seems a greater feat of endurance for them than being lead out -
particularly with how traumatised by darkness and claustrophobia they must
already be.

~~~
DecoPerson
The boys were extremely weak and unhealthy. The trek was demanding and risky
for experienced, healthy and prepared divers; there was a lot of doubt as to
whether the boys would be able to make such an arduous journey.

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crumbshot
This is the best outcome for Musk, as he gets the positive PR (and bolsters
his supposed "Iron Man" image), but bears none of the risk of his half-baked
idea failing and killing someone.

More generally, one should be wary of capitalists claiming they can solve all
of your problems. They're likely just in it for themselves.

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ofrzeta
From the pictures I don't see how the "submarine" could have worked, when they
say the cave is so narrow in places that you need to take off the scuba to get
through. Also probably not cylindrical.

~~~
Numberwang
Actually it is kind of cylindrical:

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d3qySXPJ2WE&feature=youtu.be](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d3qySXPJ2WE&feature=youtu.be)

~~~
ofrzeta
The cave, not the submarine.

