
If You Want to See Inequality in the U.S. at Its Worst, Visit an Impound Lot - dsl
http://time.com/3182726/if-you-want-to-see-inequality-in-the-u-s-at-its-worst-visit-an-impound-lot/
======
bagels
I really don't understand why the laws are such that they can just keep your
car, adding fees, until you pay. It's not like these people want to store
their car there. Regardless of the outrageous storage and towing fees, you
should be able to take your car immediately and pay them later. They can just
put collections out or impound your car later if you don't pay.

I can remember few times I was as angry as I was at a tow yard. My car was
stolen, found by the police, and impounded at a tow yard. I went to the tow
yard to get the car out, they wanted hundreds of dollars to store the car for
the few hours it was there. I went to get some belongings out of the car (I
foolishly left my wallet in the car when it was stolen, so I had no cash or
credit cards to free the car at that moment), and was accused of stealing my
own car by the tow yard employee (as if that somehow makes sense). Later, I
returned to pick up the car the next day, these tow yard people had stolen my
snow chains out of the car.

~~~
bagels
I was curious, so I looked up the relevant state law:

22651.07(3)(c)(2) states that: Prior to paying any towing, recovery, or
storage related fees, a vehicle owner... shall have the right to... Retrieve
his or her vehicle during the first 72 hours of storage and not pay a lien
fee.

It seems that these tow yards may actually be violating the law by preventing
people from retrieving their cars.

~~~
spiritplumber
Which state is it?

~~~
joshstrange
It would appear they are talking about CA [0]

[0]
[https://www.dmv.ca.gov/pubs/vctop/d11/vc22651_07.htm](https://www.dmv.ca.gov/pubs/vctop/d11/vc22651_07.htm)

~~~
bagels
Yes, California. Should have specified. Same state as the article though :)

------
graeme
Perhaps slightly OT, but this is a friendly reminder to everyone here,
especially those freelancing or running their own business: keep an emergency
fund

You never know what will happen, but you can be very sure that within a year
you're going to encounter a variety of unforeseen financial hits. Not having
the money to pay for them leads to stress and sometimes a vicious cycle.

For many Americans, an emergency fund can be an agonizing choice between
feeding their family and planning for the future. But for most people reading
this forum, an emergency fund it not a challenge once you decide to do it.

Yet for the first couple of years starting a business, I didn't prioritize
this. It felt like I was putting more money into growth, but really I slowed
myself down as I now and then had to hustle to meet relatively small
unforeseen expenses.

After you get an emergency fund, you then ought to think about 3-6 months
living expenses in a relatively liquid asset.

After that's done, you can sleep much more soundly.

~~~
morgante
I honestly don't comprehend why the prototypical HNer (in their 20s, working
as a developer) doesn't have a year or two of expenses saved up. It should be
trivial.

~~~
lukeqsee
> a year or two of _expenses_ saved up.

Expenses is the keyword, I think. Most prototypical HNers live life well above
what they could live at (e.g., less organically-grown gourmet coffee and more
rice). A year or two of true, necessary expenses could be closer to 6 months
of income for many here.

~~~
morgante
Agreed. If there were a scenario where one had to use those expenses for
years, I'd expect them to relocate to a lower COL area (ie. not SF) and adopt
a somewhat humbler lifestyle. $100k would last a _long_ time in that
situation, and it should be well within the ability of most HNers to save up
$100k before they're 30.

------
ryan-c
In 2007, I had my car stolen from the Richmond BART parking lot. The police
recovered it at something like 2:30am the following Friday night. Since I
slept through the call, my car was taken to an impound lot. I had to pay
something like $225 to pick it up at 9am the next morning, which included a
towing fee, a storage fee (rounded up to 24 hours) and a "fuck you its a
weekend" fee. I was only working part time while going to college and it was a
painful amount at the time, but I was fortunate enough to be able to put it on
a credit card and pay that off from my savings. These impound places seem to
be run by people totally devoid of compassion who are more than happy to ruin
someones life if there is money to be made doing it.

------
tbrownaw
What, you think _that 's_ bad??

You can also be charged fees for being a defendant in criminal court, and for
being in jail. And can be sent (back) to jail for not (being able to) pay(ing)
those fees.

I found out about jail fees a while back from an election website for one of
our local politicians... but I don't recall if they wanted to lower the fees
because they're unjust and hard on the poor, or raise them to help pay for
things.

.

A few relevant search results:

[http://www.npr.org/2014/05/19/312158516/increasing-court-
fee...](http://www.npr.org/2014/05/19/312158516/increasing-court-fees-punish-
the-poor)

[http://nation.time.com/2013/08/21/welcome-to-prison-will-
you...](http://nation.time.com/2013/08/21/welcome-to-prison-will-you-be-
paying-cash-or-credit/)

[http://www.mccrackencountyjailer.com/$_fees.htm](http://www.mccrackencountyjailer.com/$_fees.htm)

[http://www.co.langlade.wi.us/sheriffjailfees.htm](http://www.co.langlade.wi.us/sheriffjailfees.htm)

------
lukeqsee
Reliable, effective, and inexpensive public transit would solve 99% of
problems like this. Cars are expensive to own and operate (let alone deal with
unforeseen expenses like these). In my city, our "public transit" is a joke
that consists of buses that run every hour or so and stop running at
7:30pm—hey, at least they have free wifi?

After seeing Europe's transit system first-hand all summer, it makes little
sense to me why the investment has not been made in the USA—especially in
larger metropolitan areas like SF.

~~~
burgers
Cars are not so much expensive to operate as much as they are very risky to
operate. From accident deductibles to accidentally taking a right on red
because you missed the sign to stuff like getting towed because you didn't
catch the no parking sign. I've spent most of my adult life without a car and
it's amazing how much stuff is set up to extract income from car owners. Life
without a car provides a lot less "accidental fees" as I call them. Things
that you can't insure against but could cost you unexpected expense.

~~~
lukeqsee
And the problem is the current system design forces all people to take on the
risk of owning a car—many of whom are exhausted and working multiple jobs just
to live from day to day, not the greatest for being alert behind the wheel.

------
Spooky23
We treat everyone pretty miserably.

I spoke to a professional in a pretty powerful job who almost died because for
various reasons he didn't have the money to go to the emergency room. This
person works for a Fortune 500 company, and a visit to the ER could easily
cost $3k out of pocket.

He ended up having an emergency, which required an ambulance... The total bill
was $8,000 after insurance!

~~~
andrewfarah
This sounds insensitive (I don't mean it as such), he should have taken an
uber.

~~~
deckar01
The point of an ambulance is to receive medical attention on the way to the
ER.

~~~
andrewfarah
I agree. I was referencing this -- [https://medium.com/@abhinemani/ubers-as-
ambulances-4e3a2db38...](https://medium.com/@abhinemani/ubers-as-
ambulances-4e3a2db3880b)

------
ufmace
I wonder how many of them are driving beat up old cars that break down
seemingly at random, and hit them with even bigger towing and mechanics' fees
to get them fixed?

Just another reason why it actually kinda sucks that most of America is
impossible to get around without a car.

~~~
kenrikm
You can get a Smart Car for $99/mo - not sure why more people don't figure
that one out.

------
davekeck
A much fairer system would charge people based on their income. Parking
tickets, speeding tickets, towing charges, and really fines of any kind, would
be much more just if they took into account how much money a person has, so
that it stings the same for everyone.

As the article mentions, a poor family getting their only vehicle towed could
devastate them, while it's only a mild inconvenience for someone that can
afford a limo to pick their towed Ferrari up. That doesn't seem like the
optimal system.

~~~
imjared
But if your "sting" is, let's say, a percent of your 100,000 salary, yeah
that's going to not be fun but to get your car back, you'll do it and learn
your lesson.

If it's a percent of your $30g salary and you're living paycheck to paycheck
while trying to feed 3 kids, the effect is going to be substantially worse.
I'm not saying we can just waive penalty fees situationally but the inequality
is definitely going to be there regardless.

~~~
spiritplumber
That's actually what I was told after running a stop light - the fine was
relatively small, but the point was that in order to pay it you lost a morning
going to traffic court even if you made a million dollars a year. Surprisingly
nice cop overall! (This was in Berkeley).

~~~
jonknee
Where do you live that you have to go to court to pay a traffic ticket?

~~~
spiritplumber
Again, this was in Berkeley (2009 or 2010). The cop said I'd have to go to
court and pay the fine there, and told me why. I actually thought it wasn't a
bad idea.

------
jqm
I'm not saying there shouldn't be a fine for parking in no parking areas but
these amounts are ridiculous and the author hit it right on the the head. The
amounts charged are not in proportion to many people's ability to pay. This
imbalance doesn't make society, which we all inhabit btw, any more stable or
functional.

Of course, if fines were lowered self entitled assholes would do whatever they
please and laugh off the fines. I think the solution is this... first offenses
should be a very very small fine and the amounts should double on each
subsequent offense. That should stop the self entitlement fairly quickly. Of
course, this is assuming the intent is promote proper parking, not to strong-
arm money out of people's pockets in order to finance an army of bureaucrats
and general wasteful spending. That is the intent...proper parking behavior,
right?

------
spiritplumber
I wonder what happens if you make it technically impossible for your car to be
towed (for example, if it detects a tow attempt, it "wakes up" and nudges away
from the tow vehicle). Or if you make it get out of the impound lot by itself.

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OlLC1Iy1UkE](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OlLC1Iy1UkE)
Or after you win a tug of war with the tow truck...

~~~
tantalor
They try harder, and charge more for recovery. Don't be surprised if they
total it in the process, and you still owe them.

------
narrator
Another one of the "one mistake and you're screwed" games, along with health
care, and a few others, that the system likes to play with lower-middle class
people.

------
teddyh
This is basically the same point as the one in this (imho better) article
written in 2011: _5 Things Nobody Tells You About Being Poor_
([http://www.cracked.com/blog/5-things-nobody-tells-you-
about-...](http://www.cracked.com/blog/5-things-nobody-tells-you-about-being-
poor/))

------
dkarapetyan
San Francisco is for the rich. Anyone making less than $100k+ can't really
afford to live here and even that is cutting it close. I honestly don't see
the appeal but I guess some people like it here. This place is like Hollywood
but instead of entertainment it's technology.

~~~
ebiester
Many of them live in the central valley and commute via car.

~~~
kenrikm
Hah, yeah like it's really viable to commute from the central valley. :( it
takes me 30min to get from 92 to Ralston (2 exits)

~~~
dsl
You'd be surprised what people will do to feed their families.

------
Tortoise
Is it just me or do their fees seem incredibly high. I've never had my car
towed but my not-small city charges $110-140 to tow the car and another
$28/day to store it after the first 12 hours.

[http://www.calgaryparking.com/web/guest/impoundlot/requiredf...](http://www.calgaryparking.com/web/guest/impoundlot/requiredfees)

~~~
Cookingboy
It's San Francisco, the towing company there charge the fee not to cover their
cost, but to make a very hefty profit. Along with SFMTA and their parking
tickets bullshit (once I argued for a ticket with photographic evidence of the
misplaced meter and a long written letter, but they just simply replied "nope,
we don't care, pay up"), together they are nothing less than a government
sanctioned cartel.

~~~
jmckib
I once blocked a driveway in SF by accident (tiny garage door and the curb was
still there), and I ended up having to pay near $1000 to get my car back a few
hours later. Where does the money go? I remember being disturbed that the
towing lot appeared to be privately run.

~~~
jonknee
It was almost certainly privately run.

------
splat
Here in Ohio towing fees are regulated by state law. Some towing companies
were trying to get around the maximum fees they could charge by tacking on an
extra "administrative fee" just because. Fortunately a judge recently ruled
that the idea that these fees were legal was "ludicrous." [1]

Even still, tens of thousands of people were charged these fees and many of
them will probably never see their money back. Not to mention the fact that
having to pay these fees invariably screwed over some fraction of the victims
and led to them losing their jobs. Just getting their money back won't fix
that.

Luckily the towing fees here in Ohio seem pretty cheap compared to the Bay
Area. I had my car towed once (illegally) and it came out to around $130. But
towing companies here aren't required to accept credit cards or checks, so
they don't. It is cash only and they don't make change, which is especially
aggravating given that the total always works out to some odd amount like
$134.72. That's perhaps the sleaziest part of that sleazy business.

Fortunately a bill was recently passed aiming to reduce predatory towing
practices. [2] Among the changes it's going to bring is to provide a
streamlined process to dispute towing charges; victims of illegal towing can
collect double the towing fees. Victims of towing will now also be able to
retrieve items from there car without needing to pay a fee. And the bill will
now (at last) require that towing companies accept credit cards.

[1]
[http://www.dispatch.com/content/stories/local/2014/04/10/two...](http://www.dispatch.com/content/stories/local/2014/04/10/two-
towing-companies-fees-illegal-judge-rules.html)

[2]
[http://www.dispatch.com/content/stories/local/2014/03/20/hou...](http://www.dispatch.com/content/stories/local/2014/03/20/house-
oks-bill-to-tighten-towing-rules.html)

------
suprgeek
SF is one of the worst cities for income inequality. Add to this that Towing
companies are probably the worst scum suckers when it comes to unethical and
downright illegal practices [1] and you have a deadly combination that preys
on the weak and the poor.

I hear many anaecdotes of Cars being towed in SF for the flimsiest of reasons.

These incidents are often the beginning of the death spiral for people who are
living on the edge...

[1] [http://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/Beware-illegal-
towing-...](http://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/Beware-illegal-towing-firms-
in-San-Francisco-3178707.php)

------
cliftonk
This journalist is upset his car was towed even though he was at fault...
While getting your car towed is a terrible experience and impound lots are a
massive PITA, I think it's out of line to invoke "inequality" and especially
bringing up Michael Brown's death.

------
QuantumGood
Our second car was parked for 9 days next to where we live, but out of sight.
Law says can only park 48 hours in one place, but not a problem unless someone
complains. Someone complained, for no reason we can think of (plenty of
parking in the area.)

We went to load the car with supplies for a big annual event we put on,
and...no car. Had been towed almost a week previously. Figured it out a day
after the event during biggest snowstorm in several years. Towing, ticket,
storage, incredible hassle for no discernible reason whatsoever.

------
ygmelnikova
Baretta said it best. "Don't do the crime if you can't do the time."

~~~
ryan-c
As I and another person described, you'll also be dealing with an impound lot
if your car is stolen and subsequently recovered by the police.

~~~
brandonmenc
This happened to me about a month after I moved to Phoenix.

I paid less than fifty bucks to get my car out of the impound. My insurance
company cut me a check for $800 to fix the cosmetic damage, which I pocketed.

My story may not be typical.

~~~
ryan-c
Poor people with older cars generally do not carry insurance that would cover
that.

------
thrownaway2424
Psfft, tiny violins. The author apparently wants me to sympathize because his
car was towed only 15 minutes into the no-parking period in downtown SF.
Probably all of the people who were on delayed buses waiting for his car to be
towed out of the way thought that the fine should have been a million dollars,
plus having his car dropped into the Bay.

Fact is that authentically poor people do not drive. The population of people
who drive and park cars in cities skews hugely toward higher incomes.

~~~
Cookingboy
That is total bullshit, did you not read the article? Plenty of people work in
the city and have to drive, because they cannot afford the rent to live there,
or needs vehicles since they are part of their livelihood.

What do you know about "authentically poor people"? You think everyone drives
BMWs and Teslas in SF and our amazing public transportation (note: sarcasm)
manages to service everyone with a low-income job in the city but don't live
there?

~~~
thrownaway2424
You can call it bullshit if you want, but it's a fact. First of all, you are
absolutely right, BMW and Porsche and Tesla and all other luxury marks are
hugely over-represented in SF.

Also, I have data and you don't. Mode share to work, by income:

< $30k: 10% by car > $100k: 26% by car

Mode share, other than work, by income:

< $30k: 15% > $100k: 33%

Parking and towing fines are practically irrelevant for the lower income
people because they are highly reliant on transit and walking. Lets see an
article that complains about injustice in transit fares.

[http://archives.sfmta.com/cms/rbikes/documents/SFMTA-
ModeSha...](http://archives.sfmta.com/cms/rbikes/documents/SFMTA-
ModeShareSurvey_FinalJULY.pdf)

~~~
fleshweasel
What does this have to do with the observation that when a poor person gets
towed, it can throw their whole life off the rails, and when a rich person
gets towed, they don't even feel it? Do you think that because more poor
people take public transit to work than rich people, that these stories don't
matter?

~~~
thrownaway2424
Anything can do that including a health crisis (a far more common cause of
financial despair), an arrest, or natural disaster. The entire premise of the
article, the title of which states outright that towing fees are the worst
part of inequality in America, is completely ridiculous. The worst part about
inequality in America is that a million black men are in prison, and parking
enforcement isn't even in the top 50 worst things about inequality in America.

~~~
Cookingboy
What a freaking straw man's argument. Where in the article did the author
state it's the "worst part of inequality of America", he merely says it's a
part that's under reported and not many people are aware of.

And did you just compare horrible car towing companies to natural disasters?
One is OBVIOUSLY WORSE than the other since last time I checked, tornadoes and
earthquakes are not caused by greedy men working with corrupt government
officially trying to squeeze money out of everyone.

~~~
thrownaway2424
In the title.

