
A Culture of Envy - jeffreyrogers
http://lemire.me/blog/archives/2014/08/11/a-culture-of-envy/
======
yummyfajitas
Everything he says is true, but boy no one wants to hear it. So much of modern
identity is tied up in envy together with empathy.

Nowadays the way to demonstrate you are a good person is to express sympathy
and empathy for various approved groups. You can even express some hostility
towards your own group to show how noble and virtuous you are. Unfortunately,
in the west, this narrative is deeply flawed - the most of the approved groups
only suffer relative to others. They don't suffer absolutely at all.

If you give up envy, you take away people's ability to show what noble souls
they are.

~~~
waterlesscloud
I've been thinking recently that Twitter is rapidly becoming a tool for people
to claim Moral Superiority. There's all sorts of culture wars being fought,
and both sides seem intent on showing how much more Moral they are.

That's always been around, but it feels like it's become much more intense
online over the past year or two.

I think it may have been an inevitable phase of moving the world online, when
I step back and try to look at it objectively. Suddenly billions of people are
talking to each other and getting a sense of their place in the world.
Naturally, they're trying to establish an identity in that mass of humanity.
Staking out their territory.

Part of that is aligning themselves with a tribe. Some of the old tribal
leaders (politicians) are extremely adept at that game and have been
successfully pulling people into the highly (and quite intentionally)
polarized divisions that serve the leaders' goals. You can see this at work
when you see the masses parrot whatever the approved outrage of the week is
(and this applies to all extremes on the political spectrum).

The key point is that these outrages are specifically selected for their
ability to divide the populace into neat little tribes. A lot of political
issues are chosen for focus because they serve as a Sorting Hat, if that makes
sense. That benefits the people who are already in charge of those Houses.

I'd like to think this is just a phase, though. We're very early on in the
game. People are just getting used to an idea that they can establish their
identity in the big global world, and so far they're leaning on the old
structures. Maybe in years to come they won't have to, maybe they'll find
other ways to establish identity. At least I hope that's the case.

Anyway, this is kind of rambling. I should try to organize these thoughts a
little better.

~~~
yummyfajitas
Yes, the only reason envy is related to this is that it's playing a substitute
role for actual harm.

Here in India, you can actually say "look, starving children." "Look, these
people need water." "These people need power." If I hadn't been stuck in a
hospital for the past week or so, I'd have seen several people each day for
whom empathy is a natural reaction. But it's pretty hard to inspire empathy
for Indians or Africans.

In the US, it's far harder to find such people. No one would consider me a
deprived person or particularly deserving of empathy (ignoring a temporary
medical condition), yet I have far fewer goods and services than even most of
the poorest Americans. This poses a conundrum for those who want to appeal to
empathy.

That's where envy comes in. Don't feel bad for people because they have too
little, feel bad because others have more.

------
rustyconover
Lets look at how envy drives some entire businesses:

1\. Instagram - completely based around lifestyle envy and like count.

2\. Pinterest - envy my "good" taste

3\. Facebook - envy my life and my baby

4\. Twitter - envy my wit and follower count

5\. Linked.in - envy my job and connection count

6\. Gmail (before open access) - envy my domain name for my email address.

7\. eBay - Envy my sellers badges and review ranking

I think social networking in particular has a strong correlation to using envy
as being a "dark" social pattern exploited for growth and stickiness.

~~~
sigmar
I use most of those services (except 2 and sort of 5) and don't experience the
'envy' that you associate with them. Perhaps your perspective on them is
skewed or perhaps my use-cases are atypical.

~~~
coldtea
I'd say your use-cases are atypical.

Envy is so much part of those services that it has even been played in comedy
routines - or even in drama:

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QxVZYiJKl1Y](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QxVZYiJKl1Y)

------
robotresearcher
Juxtaposed:

> ...stop taking finite games seriously.

> 22,800 followers

> 900,000 views

edit: no insult meant to the author, and I appreciate the sentiment. I just
found the advice and the bean counting to be ironic when appearing together.

~~~
illicium
Wow, good observation. That whole sidebar screams "look at my numbers!"

------
thewarrior
I've been struggling with this and need some help from you wiser HN folks.

I've decided that I won't make money the #1 factor in my life and I do try and
put it into practice. I have more savings than my friends who do earn much
more than me.

Lately its occurred to me that such idealism may have some negative
consequences in the long run. In a society where everything is predicated on
how much money you have - the healthcare you receive , the education your kids
get , the college they go to , I can't practically avoid playing society's
finite games.

My dad is a guy who's never played any of these finite games. And the end
result is that not a day goes by when my mom doesn't complain about him and
his ways. It's hard to find other people who share such a world view.

And personally too , it's been very tough. It's a pretty common feeling but I
have it too , that I lost my way somewhere and now I'm at some place where I
can't motivate my self to find a way out. And frankly , I'm not asking for too
much. If I got a decent job with some interesting work I'd be thrilled.

It's natural feel envy and snobbery. Especially towards the folks who grew up
with you. I don't envy Elon Musk because he was never a part of my life. But
if I were a smart kid in his class who grew up with him , maybe I'd feel a
tinge of envy :P . Because you both came from the same place you feel that you
could have done it.

You should never ever feel sorry for yourself. Easy enough to say but I can't
seem to do it. And that's destroying me.

EDIT: Someone who actually walks the walk on this:
[http://heuna.tumblr.com/post/2415073898/kim-ung-yong-a-
child...](http://heuna.tumblr.com/post/2415073898/kim-ung-yong-a-child-
prodigy-but-happiness-beats)

~~~
_yosefk
My take on it has always been, for money not to be a big factor in life, you
need a certain amount of money. Otherwise you're constantly counting it,
tracking prices, looking for income, etc.

To be able to make enough money to not have to be thinking about it all the
time, but to forego the opportunity on idealistic grounds seems to be a
painful shot at my foot; I will have made myself constantly worry about money
out of my disdain for it.

------
ChuckMcM
... wherein our author realizes they have been pursuing the wrong goals.

Yes, it is common for people to measure themselves against folks they consider
their peers. Some of them got it from their parents who said to them, "oh,
he's the best in his class" or "look at how clean and tidy your friend is, go
wash up." Some of them got it from a desire to have a _score_ with which to
compare. Some got it from girlfriends or wives who complained to them in
reference to a comparison.

And then again, a lot of people have moved past that and started defining
their values not through comparison to others but to their own internal
values.

It might be an age thing, or maybe a maturity thing. At some point you realize
in the end you are going to be dead, and killing yourself so that folks who
are still alive will remember you, is not really a 'goal' that lends itself to
a full life.

~~~
sliverstorm
On the other hand, comparing yourself to others can be useful in giving
yourself direction and ideas.

For a simple example, when I visit friends' houses, I am often taking little
notes. "Oh, I love this sink. Hey, the placement of the washer is great." It
gives me ideas, real-life-examples, for how I could improve my house to my own
liking.

The same can be done at a personal level. Anything you admire about someone
can be taken as a role model. Not because you want to outdo them. Rather
because you want to be more like them.

Others may disagree, but I find other people very handy for "window shopping"
life decisions and lifestyles. Does this guy seem fulfilled? Does that guy
have trouble making rent? Which one do I want to end up like?

~~~
ChuckMcM
Fair point, I refer to that activity as "learning from others" as opposed to
"comparing to others".

The key difference is that the reference standard is rooted in your internal
values. So "you love that sink" as opposed to "everyone thinks that sink is
better than mine, time to upgrade my sink."

Role models are good too, if you are evaluating the values that you believe
in. But the key there is that you adopt your values because you believe in
them, not because others think you should believe in them.

Like the author who was pursuing fame as a researcher because he felt others
saw that as valuable, only to come into conflict with his real values which
were that his family meant the world to him. In my opinion, letting yourself
be driven by values external to your world view will always end up with you
feeling very poorly about yourself in the long term.

------
kqr2
The book which this article is based on is _Finite and Infinite Games_ by
James Carse.

[http://www.amazon.com/Finite-Infinite-Games-James-
Carse/dp/1...](http://www.amazon.com/Finite-Infinite-Games-James-
Carse/dp/1476731713/)

For some reason, the article mentions the author but does not explicitly
mention the title of the book.

------
moab
A lot of the post feels like hyperbole to me - here's a successful and
intelligent professor, telling people to simply do what they want to do, and
not worry about 'competition' and finite games. He clarifies his views a
little in the comments, relenting that one can still have healthy competition
as long as it doesn't become 'war'-like.

Perhaps a more moderate summary of his message is "don't take the game too
seriously, and know when to leave it". Or maybe this is just taking something
that both the author and those he criticizes view as being binary, and viewing
it as a real.

~~~
hkmurakami
It's a matter of semantics, but perhaps we can replace "competition" with
"inspired by" (a peer) to do more. Personally, this mindset has helped me a
lot.

~~~
moab
Sure, I feel that way about a lot of work related things. Honestly, at the end
of the day as solipsistic as it might sound, you have to play the game where
you're happy, and that's 'winning'. What game this is differs from person to
person. Re: money, fame, etc, most us aren't Midases, and pursuing these
metrics usually lead to significant losses in other (presumably important)
dimensions.

------
freshflowers
Reducing the problem of inequality to envy is so totally, arrogantly
disconnected from the reality of life on this planet that it makes me want to
punch the author in the face.

This entire blog post can be summarized in one short sentence: "let them eat
cake!".

Seriously, _" Take the regular jobs."_? What the fuck do you think the vast
majority of people lucky enough to have a job are doing?

 _" Avoid conspicuous consumption."_ Well thank you very fucking much for that
bit of helpful advice to the majority that have no fucking choice.

Envy is the standard lame excuses of the privileged that don't want to bother
thinking about the consequences their privilege has for others.

His "finite games" are non-optional within a society of structurally growing
inequality. You stop playing, you lose _everything_. Maybe not dramatically in
one individual's lifetime (if, like his one and only example, you're lucky
enough to be pretty fucking privileged to start with), but bit by bit,
generation by generation, until there is nothing left but scraps.

That's what Piketty and Occupy Wall street were talking about, not about
whether or not people can "choose" to buy a fucking BMW. Inequality is a
growing cancer that gradually takes all choices away.

~~~
gdubs
The book, "The millionaire next door" is based on extensive research on the
consumption patterns of America's wealthiest and a surprising majority live
below their means and don't play that game. They're wealthy is spite of being
low earners -- in other words they play solid economic defense and often have
a weaker economic offense than many. There are a lot of people driving BMWs
who can't afford them, and the economic crises revealed a ton of people over-
leveraged on mortages. Now, in that case there's certainly a strong argument
that people were taken advantage of, and inequality is a really big problem --
I'm just not convinced the status game is something that must be played.
Again, the book makes a compelling, fact based argument that frugality is a
bigger determinant of wealth than high income.

------
droopyEyelids
To pick a nit and hopefully spark interest in what is an amazing book,
Thorsteun Veblen described a good purchased to create envy as "Invidious
Consumption", which is a special case of conspicuous consumption.

Invidious Consumption is meant to divide people. Conspicuous only means some
aspects of it stand outside the realm of 'utility' (which to Veblen includes
aesthetics).

------
tmuir
Stopped reading at the luxury car point. Some people of means choose to drive
luxury cars because they are powerful, comfortable cars with lots of safety
features and bleeding edge technology.

I'm sure there are plenty of people that buy them due to envy, but to state
that everyone who buys one is envious, or wants to evoke others' envy, is more
than a little ridiculous.

~~~
coldtea
> _Some people of means choose to drive luxury cars because they are powerful,
> comfortable cars with lots of safety features and bleeding edge technology._

Probably the kind of people who have never heard or entertained the notion of
diminishing returns, and think that spending $200,000 or $300,000 on a car
will get you much more comfortable and "bleeding edge technology" than
spending, say, $60,000, and not just an extravagant design and the envy
factor.

(I'm also not sure why buyers of luxury cars in the US in particular want
"powerful" sports cars in a country where the maximum speed limit we get is a
kindergarten level 70-75 mph).

(Btw, and whenever someone writes "everyone" for a social group, he means "the
majority of them". No need to point out some exceptions to "disprove" him).

~~~
brandonmenc
> I'm also not sure why buyers of luxury cars in the US in particular want
> "powerful" sports cars in a country where the maximum speed limit we get is
> a kindergarten level 70-75 mph

Because handling and acceleration are useful and FUN even if you aren't red
lining it.

> than spending, say, $60,000

The original author specifically denigrates BMWs, which you can purchase for
less than $60k.

It's all relative, I guess.

------
polarix
Isn't it fundamentally just about the ability to manipulate one's environment,
though?

Such capacity is the only thing I ever envy about others: the power to craft
their environment and sculpt their own experience to fit their desires,
regardless of content. The relative difference is entirely incidental, since I
primarily notice only others who are further up the hierarchy.

Is it just me? It seems like a major fallacy to think that in general people
desire power over other humans as an end in itself.

Perhaps it's the technocrat talking, but the ideal situation seems to be
_Unenvied Power_ : pure power over one's environment, with zero conscious
representation of that power in others' minds.

------
rdlecler1
As humans we need to feel a sense of accomplishment. When we lived in small
tribes and villages it was possible for many people to achieve something in
that small pond. Now we're all surrounded by giants. It's both humbling and
depressing.

------
galago
I'm not sharp enough to tell if this is a joke/parody site. He has the 'social
media' stats in this weird prominent sidebar, which makes me think this is
some kind of experimental-art piece critiquing social media.

------
Animats
The concept that playing zero-sum games is socially unacceptable needs to come
back. This would not have been a strange concept to a businessman of the
1950s.

------
mercurial
A culture of envy? Maybe. But in a world where the top 1% controls 50% of the
global wealth, what is surprising about it?

------
ekr
> I believe that if there is one thing humanity needs to do to get through the
> next few centuries, is to reject envy and stop taking finite games
> seriously.

That cannot happen as long as you want humanity to exist. Reproduction is the
driving force, shaping everything from our behavior, including the search for
status, which is an important mechanism in mating. If people didn't signal
[[http://wiki.lesswrong.com/wiki/Signaling](http://wiki.lesswrong.com/wiki/Signaling)],
evolution would be a lot slower (or maybe could exist at all?).

Now, status doesn't necessarily need to be related to wealth, however for the
past centuries, that was a reliable indicator.

This is really basic evolutionary psychology, and I encourage the author the
check it out.

~~~
PavlovsCat
A lot of things "slow down evolution". Glasses and contact lenses, or not
throwing babies with birth defects from the nearest cliff. So that in itself
hardly constitutes an argument against anything, slowing down evolution is
perfectly fine.

It's not like fast or slow or no evolution make any difference when it comes
to the heat death of the universe. Evolution does make "progress", but not
really towards anything in particular; it isn't going anywhere. The universe,
for all we know anyway, is a tightly sealed container we will not get out of
and die in no matter what we evolve into -- so we might as well spend the time
intellectually honest and compassionate.

> Now, status doesn't necessarily need to be related to wealth, however for
> the past centuries, that was a reliable indicator.

On what planet? Make a list of the greatest minds of the last 100 years, and
find out how much they cared about, or even despised, wealth. I know it's
subjective to a degree what constitutes a "great mind" \- but that still beats
the circular logic of defining success as material wealth, and then saying
material wealth is a good indicator for success.

