
It Started With a Jolt: How New York Became a Tech Town - ishikawa
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/02/22/technology/nyc-tech-startups.html
======
nickelcitymario
One of the biggest lessons I've taken from New York's approach is not to try
and be the next Silicon Valley (as every community is trying to be). You can't
beat the Valley at its own game. That's foolish.

Instead, look to what industries your community has long been successful in,
and develop the tech to disrupt those industries before the Valley does.

NYC's example was to focus tech on advertising, finance, and media -- the
industries it has long dominated.

I'm from a small mining city in Canada (Sudbury, Ontario). I see the same
desperate hope to become a tech center. But the best startups are the ones
focused on areas where our community has traditionally held a significant
leadership position: mining.

One such startup, and arguable our most successful one, is Minalytix. They
develop software for analyzing mining and exploration data.

Another is Symboticware, which creates hardware and software to gather real-
time data from machines on the ground and analyzing it back at the office.

Jannatec is focused on solving the challenges of getting quality wireless data
in and out of complex underground mines (those many kilometers of hardrock
don't exactly make it easy).

TesMan is focused on mine safety. Dura21 works on better pipes. Hard-Line is
tackling robotics. ClickMox does lidar. There are many others.

These are small but thriving startups. They're not sexy. They're not likely to
be the next Facebook or Google. But they're solving problems our community has
long established itself as being experts at solving. It's also transforming
our economy from one being tied to a dwindling resource (easily accessible
ore), to one that leads in mining operations around the world.

A lot of towns want to be the next SV. It's not going to happen. Trying to be
SV is to live in denial about what made SV successful in the first place.

But tackling a smaller niche in the wider tech space? Building on the
resources, expertise, and reputation you already have? That's a very doable
approach and the field is wide open.

~~~
gammateam
Your whole post missed the important part about what can get funded and where.

NYC is coming up, but the graveyard of quirky disruptors would still only be
pursued in Silicon Valley. These non revenue generating companies acting as
developer daycare need to be flipped from one portfolio to the next until you
have a deal size big enough to matter, swap out the board and executive team
and shop it to the public markets, ka-ching. New York VCs and other markets
cant and wont chase developer daycare companies on a broad enough scale to
grow these into deals.

~~~
noxToken
Maybe I'm missing something, but why are you talking only in terms of massive
funding and growth. The GP stated that they're seeing success in smaller (I
don't actually know the size) companies due to capitalizing on a local or
hyperlocal need. That's far from disrupt, fund, flip, and retire, and it's a
perfectly viable way to start, grow and maintain a business.

Again, I could be missing the entire point of your comment.

~~~
gammateam
The point is that disrupting local industries gives only a narrow field of
what can get funded

The graveyard of seemingly pointless portfolio pieces is a key component which
nyc cant replicate

------
TuringNYC
I realize the anti-Amazon movement was a limited (but loud) group of
individuals, but if their level of influence has lasting power, NYC tech is in
trouble.

Consider NYTimes' own article on the amazon exit. Half the people angry at
Amazon were commenting that Amazon wasn't going to pay living wages (thinking
that corporate HQ2 jobs are fulfillment jobs.) The other half were angry that
Amazon was going to pay _too much_ and would drive up rents. _Which one is
it?_ I don't know, but both sides banded together.

One major issue AOC had with Amazon was the fear that Amazon couldn't
guarantee they would only be hiring local NYers -- since when did NYC become a
country? Where could/couldnt workers come from -- would it be only from
Queens? Would Brooklyn be OK? What if someone commuted from NJ? What if
someone commuted down from the suburb? At what point does someone who moves to
NYC become a NYer? This type of in-city protectionism was shocking and
completely ignores how local economies work.

~~~
code4tee
The backlash was mostly about the tax breaks and government subsidies that
would have been given. The argument was that New York is New York and doesn’t
need to bribe companies to put big offices here.

~~~
TuringNYC
They definitely didn't need to bribe Amazon. There was a time to argue against
that. _True leadership_ would have been to have these protests when the
incentives package was put together, not later when we already bagged the win
and would lose everything.

~~~
maxsilver
> True leadership would have been to have these protests when the incentives
> package was put together,

Which is hard to do, since Amazon convinced most city leaders across the
country to keep the majority of the incentives _secret_ , and therefore no one
could know how bad it was until it was already too late.

[https://www.nytimes.com/2018/08/05/technology/amazon-
headqua...](https://www.nytimes.com/2018/08/05/technology/amazon-headquarters-
hq2.html)

There's a strong argument here that the protesters were the only people
involved in this whole ordeal that actually did their job properly.

~~~
pboutros
To add to this -- even when it was a secret, they were still protesting the
idea of providing those incentives.

------
code4tee
The NYC tech sector is indeed growing quite strong and is also quite grounded
in the realities of business because of the diversity of NYC’s overall
economy. Few cities in the world have the economic diversity that New York
does. That drives the mindset to be noticeably different, mostly in a good
way.

At several meet ups recently the moderator wasn’t shy about warning Silicon
Valley companies “I’d advise you to be clear about how you plan to make money
and be profitable because if you don’t the audience here is just going to
grill you on how you plan to make money and be profitable.”

~~~
johnmarcus
Which is why it will never really be Silicon Valley. No risk, no reward. NY is
too expensive for anyone to sit around and take risks, likewise, it will never
see the real reward.

~~~
meddlepal
Implying Silicon Valley is affordable compared to NYC is silly.

The Californian "Try It" attitude is basically the equivalent of throwing shit
against the wall while using other people's money. It works sometimes, but
it's a terrible strategy that only works because VCs hit a unicorn that wipes
out all the mistakes every so often.

~~~
adventured
> it's a terrible strategy that only works because VCs hit a unicorn that
> wipes out all the mistakes every so often

The "only" part of that doesn't actually invalidate the fact that it works.
What you said is: it's a terrible strategy that has worked extraordinarily
well.

It's a great strategy that has been shown to work across five decades of tech
upheavel, precisely because it does pay for itself over time and keeps
generating returns for institutional money. That it works so well is why it
has all kept getting bigger as the positive results roll forward. It also
produced the greatest concentration of tech dominance and invention the world
is likely to ever see in one place.

~~~
Apocryphon
Maybe it's time for some daring innovators to disrupt this rickety archaic
model?

------
EnderMB
I've been wanting to move to NYC for years. I love big cities, and since I was
a kid I loved NYC. I went on holiday there a few years ago, and it only
reinforced the idea of living there.

In practice, finding tech jobs as a Brit has been horrendous. I've applied for
countless roles, including roles at all FAANG companies, startups crying out
for people with my experience, and established medium-sized companies hiring
(and offering sponsorship of work permits)...and nothing. Either immediate
rejection, or emails saying "actually, we don't sponsor visas".

I don't know if this is an America thing, but I've had other companies more
than happy to fly me over in other parts of the US California and Washington).
Given how mixed the culture is in NYC, with so many immigrants throughout the
city, I have been very surprised that it's so hard to get a job there.

This is purely from my experiences, and maybe it's just that all these
companies hate me for some reason, but IMO you can't be a tech town if you're
not willing to bring talent in, at least in the same ways other worldwide tech
hubs will.

~~~
phonon
What kind of Visa sponsorship are you expecting? An L1 visa for transferring
from an international company location to the US? That would rule out
startups. An H-1B? That takes months, and has less than a 30% success rate. An
O-1? Do you have documentation that would support "extra-ordinary" abilities?

An E-2 visa is kinda neat though--have you thought of taking matters into your
own hands?

[https://workpermit.com/immigration/usa/e2-visa-investors-
and...](https://workpermit.com/immigration/usa/e2-visa-investors-and-
employees)

~~~
EnderMB
Isn't the low success rate for H1B down to how it is used for consultancy
roles, whereas large companies looking for full-time employees tend to have a
very high success rate for "straightforward" applications? If not, then why do
the likes of Google and other FAANG companies even bother interviewing people?

~~~
phonon
So!

Like I said, the visas in play are, L1,O1,H1B

L1--a common option for large companies, that can accomodate having an
employee first work in a European office, before moving them to a US based
one. So perhaps you get hired, and you work in Zurich, or perhaps even Canada,
for a year, before moving to the NY office. Also abused by large offshore
consulting firms, who move employees between countries. Obviously, not an
option for most companies.

O1--are you well known in your field? Published? Won awards? Print articles
about you? Then you have a good shot at an O1. Possibly, FAANG have the
ability to hire those top ~5% people disproportionately...

H1B--for "specialty" occupations. You HAVE to apply through a lottery (and be
sponsored, etc). The applications are ONLY accepted first few days of April,
for work that begins October 1 (six months later). Last year, 190,098 people
applied. There were 65,000 regular openings, and 20,000 openings for people
with Masters degrees.

After you get selected in the lottery (if you're not chosen, your application
is returned, UNOPENED) your application is reviewed. Google etc. has about a
100% acceptance rate during review, body shops do much worse (it's basically a
disqualification process..applicant is not sufficiently
skilled/experienced/educated, doesn't have a job waiting for them, etc.)

[https://news.bloomberglaw.com/daily-labor-report/it-
consulti...](https://news.bloomberglaw.com/daily-labor-report/it-consulting-
industry-hardest-hit-by-jump-in-h-1b-denials-1)

So the upshot--

Google wants you bad? They will work with their immigration lawyers (who are
skilled, and do this routinely,) and Google may not care if it takes months or
years to complete the process to bring you over to the US.

Small, or even midsize company company? A lot of overhead, and expense, and
waiting, and it may not work out. Hence the lack of enthusiasm... (Caveat--
already _here_ on a legal work visa? Then lots of smaller companies would be
happy to take it over.)

~~~
EnderMB
Thanks for the detailed post!

To be honest, I've always viewed the H1B visa as the "default", since it's the
visa type associated with FAANG type interviews. As far as O1 goes, I'd be
interested in how many developers make it over on a O1 visa to see where the
bar is for being "known" in your field.

The L1 visa sounds interesting, though! I've looked at a few jobs in the UK
where companies have offices in different cities, but I often get the feeling
that few of them want to hire someone in their office when they have an eye on
their sister office. As suggested in the other reply, banking sounds like a
good idea, but the downside is that...you're working for a large company on (I
assume) boring corporate stuff.

~~~
phonon
You can google for people's experiences with O1. You can move the needle a bit
by writing articles and getting some awards...you can also apply for an O1 and
H1B.

------
pge
Watching from afar, it seemed to me that the catalyzing event for NY's startup
scene was the collapse of the banks. The big banks had a lot of very strong
tech talent, for whom it was a huge financial risk to leave and join a startup
(because the salaries were so high at the banks). It wasn't until the banks
collapsed that that talent was released. Prior to that, NY had tech companies,
like any major city does, but was not one of the leading centers on the east
coast at all.

------
mattzito
I remember raising money in mid-2004 and having VCs lose interest when they
heard we were based in NYC. One offered to invest on the condition that we
move to the Bay Area or Boston. Around the same time, post-9/11, a lot of the
big banks were moving their engineering operations (at least, as much as they
could), offshore or to cheaper parts of the US. It was difficult at the time
to envision NYC becoming a real tech city.

------
peruvian
One of the reasons for this is that NYC is very livable with a tech salary.

I’ve never been in the Bay Area, but here you can make just above $100k and
live comfortably with a <60 mins commute to work. I know that because that’s
what I do.

You won’t be able to buy a house and having a kid without a spouse with a
similar salary may be tough, but for a single person it lets you enjoy the
city and actually be able to save money.

~~~
aetherson
You can do the same in the bay area. People who are complaining about how
unaffordable the bay area is on six figure salaries are either wanting to be
much closer than one hour from hot spots, owning a house, having a kid, or
some combination thereof.

~~~
electricslpnsld
I think the point is that in NYC, you don’t have to be over an hour from the
hot spots if you aren’t making lots of money. It is totally possible to live
in Manhattan on 30 grand a year (hell, I’ve done it). To do so in San
Francisco or the Penninsula would be much harder.

~~~
aetherson
The point of the grandparent was that you could live "less than 60 minutes"
from work on over 100k a year.

I don't doubt that someone can live in Manhattan on less than 30k per year --
my wife worked in nonprofit when we met and I saw lots of people she worked
with managing to live in salaries that were half of what people on HN
regularly decry as being effective poverty for the area. However, when you do
a simple search for apartments for rent in Manhattan, studios are routinely
around $2k/month.

------
forgotmysn
New York is not a tech town.

It is a finance town. It is a marketing town. It is a fashion town. It has so
many things that dwarf it's tech industry.

It's not a tech town, and I honestly don't expect it to become one.

~~~
rongenre
Yeah, my sense is that tech in NYC is tech as an enabler of finance.

------
denart2203
When a city is dominated by one industry, particularly finance, that can spell
ruin for its inhabitants. Good for the wealthy and the people in the industry,
mediocre for many others. Tech might smooth things out a bit, but there is no
reason we need to give anything to a behemoth for coming here. Many are
already make NYC home.

Although not the only one, NYC has some of the best universities, many top-
tier companies, pools of talented people, and the best cultural amenities.
There was no reason to kowtow to a behemoth to come here. NYC is big and
innovative, and it will stay big and innovative for the foreseeable future.
Tech was here before and will it be here after, without being dominated by a
single company.

------
mountainofdeath
People forget that Bloomberg himself owns a major financial technology
company.

------
ishikawa
One point, not mentioning if big companies like Amazon are a problem or not,
is that this is a market with higher income, coming to a city with a very high
living cost. So in my view these companies are moving to NY because they can
afford paying employees that want to live in NYC.

~~~
jzylstra
I too am concerned that this point is often missed. The choice of where to
live, for those who will find well-regarded (and paying) positions in any
case, is one given as much weight as the organization for which one will work.

------
auntienomen
Part of the story with the rise of tech in NYC is that finance has become a
large consumer of technology, data, and statistics. This helped create a
talent pool that other tech companies could draw on.

------
ChrisArchitect
I really expected this to be about a hacker movement and JOLT cola

~~~
Fnoord
Same. Jolt, apparently actually from New York [1], was the first hacker drink
I learned about. The best one though, is the German Club Mate.

[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jolt_Cola](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jolt_Cola)

------
ErikAugust
[http://beta.trimread.com/articles/113](http://beta.trimread.com/articles/113)

------
strikelaserclaw
"The company’s leaders didn’t have high hopes, assuming all the best software
engineers were in Silicon Valley. But they told him he could go ahead if he
could find “Google-worthy” talent in New York" \- Major city of couple million
won't have "google worthy" talent.

------
NN88
makes you wonder how the south is transitioning

------
chiefalchemist
Google? DoubleClick? Perhaps the more accurate headline would be: New York
Became a Tech Town (Because SV Ran Out of Space and People)? Not a criticism,
simply an honest observation.

But what industry doesn't have outposts in NYC? Why would we expect tech to be
any different? Where is the story here? Where is the news?

~~~
Ologn
DoubleClick was founded in New York.

~~~
chiefalchemist
I sit corrected. Thanks. None the less, don't cha think we need more than on
such entity to declare "victory"?

------
CPLX
New York is the most important city in the history of world civilization, this
shouldn’t come as a shock to anyone.

Everything genuinely important in this country ends up run from New York City
eventually. People forget the Rockefellers made their money in Cleveland.

But that aside NYC has always had a serious tech community since the electric
grid was invented in lower Manhattan, or the transistor in suburban New
Jersey.

~~~
okmokmz
> New York is the most important city in the history of world civilization,
> this shouldn’t come as a shock to anyone.

I wouldn't even consider New York to be the most important city in the history
of the US, much less world civilization

~~~
exegete
Found the guy from Jersey! Kidding...

But, I agree. Obviously NYC is an important city, but to say it is the most
important city in the history of world civilization is a bit outlandish and
US-centric.

~~~
logfromblammo
It seems like a very "New York" thing to say, though.

Everyone else in the US knows to enthusiastically agree, quietly raise prices
by 40%, and wait to roll their eyes until after the New Yorker's back is
turned.

~~~
CPLX
Not a problem, we can afford it.

------
madengr
NY is not a tech town.

Google is not tech, it’s advertising. Amazon is a mail-order company. Uber is
a taxi company. Stop calling “tech” technology. The revenue generated by those
companies is not the technology itself.

A semiconductor fab, a satellite construction facility, a defense contractor;
those are “tech”.

/rant

~~~
gipp
Language is forged by consensus, and consensus won that battle a _long_ time
ago.

Besides, that's an extremely narrow view of what those giant companies do.
Cloud? Hardware? AI? Car/drone autonomy? Natural science research, even?

