
Why I Don't Buy Organic, and Why You Might Not Want to Either - kevbam
https://www.forbes.com/sites/stevensavage/2016/03/19/why-i-dont-buy-organic-and-why-you-might-want-to-either/
======
conradk
From the author's bio: "Since April of 2016 I work part time for the non-
profit, CropLife Foundation communicating the benefits of crop protection
agents"

To read it yourself, go to
[https://www.forbes.com/sites/stevensavage](https://www.forbes.com/sites/stevensavage),
then click on "Full bio"

~~~
srehnborg
Great find. No bias at all...

Plenty of articles say that organic is not worth it due to no nutritional
value. That is not the reason I've ever heard anybody say they purchase
organic fruits and veggies. It's the chemicals.

I don't want to eat food that has been sprayed with chemicals over and over
again to kill the various predators to that plant. I also don't want those
chemicals to be in the water supply or ground.

It's more than just nutrition.

~~~
cortesoft
But organic farms still spray 'chemicals' on their fruits and veggies, they
just use 'natural' chemicals.

Whether a 'chemical' is harmful to humans or not has nothing to do with how it
is manufactured, so there is no reason to believe a 'natural chemical' is
safer than a synthetic one.

~~~
byproxy
As far as I understand, the synthetic pesticides may actually be safer since
they're designed with human consumption in mind and are able to be synthesized
in such a way to limit negative effects on the body. Also, they can be
designed to eliminate pests that are harmful to crops while doing little
damage to other fauna in a way that organic pesticides can't.

I don't have any sources to cite, just my memory from past reading. If I'm
off-base, please let me know!

------
yeleti
The author says .... "and the actual pesticides used today are mostly
relatively non-toxic to humans."

Nothing can be further from the truth. Most (in fact all) pesticides used are
designed to kill biological cells. So pesticides do not distinguish between a
caterpillars cell or a humans. All pesticides are harmful to humans, some in
tiny doses, some in large doses.

FYI - Landmark lawsuit claims Monsanto hid dangers of cancer caused by its
weedkillers. [https://www.theguardian.com/business/2018/may/22/monsanto-
tr...](https://www.theguardian.com/business/2018/may/22/monsanto-trial-cancer-
weedkiller-roundup-dewayne-johnson)

~~~
tzs
> Most (in fact all) pesticides used are designed to kill biological cells

You can make pesticides based on hormones of the target insect. Those
pesticides do not kill cells.

Insects are kind of like little biological state machines, with hormones
controlling the state transitions. A pesticide based on those hormones can
mess up the timing. For instance, suppose you have in insect the munches on
your crops all summer, then when it gets cooler and wetter lays its eggs and
dies, leaving the eggs to repeat the cycle next year. A hormone-based
pesticide might be able to make them lay the eggs early, when it is too warm
and dry for the eggs to survive and when things that might eat the eggs are
active.

------
cryptozeus
This is the key point Don’t get distracted if author is biased or not...he is
making sone goood points.

I was not aware of this..”The USDA, which oversees the foods labeled as
“Certified Organic”, states quite clearly on its website about its role in
organic, that “Our regulations do not address food safety or nutrition.” Foods
labelled “Certified Organic” must adhere to certain rules and regulations but
aren’t endowed with any particular nutritional or safety features. However,
many consumers believe that the Organic label means the food has superior
nutrition and is safer, especially in regard to pesticide residues. This is
not true. ”

~~~
ddoran
"However, many consumers believe that the Organic label means ... This is not
true."

He is correctly stating that consumers erroneously believe the label means.
But the sentence is brilliantly constructed that the final words left me with
the sense that it is a statement about organic food, not consumer's
misunderstanding of the label:

"... the food has superior nutrition and is safer, especially in regard to
pesticide residues. This is not true."

~~~
jbob2000
If the label is wrong, how do you know something is actually organic? His
point is that it's just a label you can practically slap on anything.

~~~
smilliken
There are certification processes. My family farm did periodic inspections,
interviews, and lab tests on soil samples.

------
couchand
The author does a fantastic job arguing against a straw man and distracting
the reader.

Hey, sometimes conventional farms actually use reasonable techniques! That
means they're just as good, right?

Hey, look at my cute granddaughter. Those conventional raspberries must be
great, right?

We can use a little less land to grow most crops if we do it conventionally,
that makes it okay, right?

Some big bad marketers work for companies selling organic products, which
makes organic bad, right?

~~~
hasbroslasher
This guy completely (intentionally) misses the point to mislead the reader. He
does nothing to address actual concerns of organic food enthusiasts like:

1\. GMO food is a monopoly owned by a couple of megacorps who claim rights on
the seeds of their food and charge farmers "royalties" for growing them, even
if they themselves didn't plant them. This is exploitative, ethically dubious,
and the result of intense lobby by the genetic engineering industry.

2\. Conventional farming usually doesn't give a damn about soil erosion, crop
rotation, or any kind of sustainability beyond year-over-year profits. This
creates harmful environmental externalities that organic farms have to avoid
in order to get their label. While some conventional farms might TRY to do
SOME things better, organic foods must do all of them in order to be certified
organic.

3\. GMOs homogenize crop genetics and provide a vector for a dystopian future
of agroblight, where one crop affliction could cause billions of people to
starve.

4\. The conventional farming industry makes every attempt to lie, mislead, and
control the conversation through power and influence (e.g. this exact
article). They have an incentive to discredit organic foods as tin-hat woo, to
hire scientists to produce whatever kind of study they want, and to inject
authors into the public conversation to shape people's perception of the
industry. While organic foods companies often resort to equally crappy
measures (scare mongering), the end is considerably less bad than the harms of
conventional farming as we know it today.

------
mapleoin
> the actual pesticides used today are mostly relatively non-toxic to humans

Love this! "mostly relatively" won't kill you... maybe...

~~~
jandrese
DDT is mostly non-toxic to humans too. One of the DOW salesman used to drink a
cup of it to prove how safe it was.

~~~
AdmiralAsshat
Is he still alive?

~~~
jandrese
No, but he died at 85 years old.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kenneth_Mellanby](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kenneth_Mellanby)

------
gicadin
Although I agree that buying everything organic is irrational there are
certain products where the organic version is quite different. A good example
are tomatoes where market bought often taste like plastic. This is my personal
taste and opinion but i've validated it in my circle of friends.

~~~
Mediterraneo10
Indeed. My own example is garlic. In the EU today, most garlic sold is from
China and presumably grown through standard modern industrial techniques.. It
just isn't very good: almost no juice, a strange bitter tang.

But my local supermarket also offers a brand of organic garlic from Spain that
is out of this world by comparison. I rave about it to friends. It may seem
weird to be this enthusiastic about a minor ingredient, but I find the
difference really so huge.

Now, the fact that this garlic was grown through organic farming techniques
may be incidental to its quality; maybe it was some other factor that makes
the difference. Nonetheless, I will continue buying this organic brand,
because when the market only gives me these two options, I am going to prefer
the better one.

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ohthehugemanate
Wish the article also mentioned: \- food supply: Generically Engineered crops
are the only way we're going to feed the estimated 11 billion people at our
estimated peak population. Heck, it's providing a significant part of the
boost that allows us to have 8 billion. If the planet went "all organic"
today, billions of people would starve to death. Another billion or so would
be sentenced to deadly food supply uncertainty.

\- nutritional value: GE crops are the best way we have to compensate for diet
diversity issues in many poor areas of the world. Golden rice is a famous
example, but not the only one. There are similar stories for cassava, bananas,
and many other staple foods. Banning nutrient enriched crops sentences
millions of children to malnutrition and its effects.

\- land and resource use: "organic" farming requires much more land, water,
and energy to produce per calorie. Can you say "deforestation"? How about
"pollution"?

\- food safety: GE foods undergo (required) enormous safety testing before
they reach market. Testing that would fail and block many "frankenfoods"
created by "organic" cross breeding, such as kiwi. What's more, "organic"
blocks the possibility of creating hypoallergenic peanuts, wheat, shellfish,
etc etc .

\- organic foods require more, and more damaging, and more lasting, pesticides
than their GE sisters.

\- I don't like radiation in my food. The "organic" method of cross breeding
involves radiospermatogenesis. That's where you bombard seeds with x-rays to
promote mutation. That's genetic engineering, but randomized. \- "organic"
cross breeding selects crops based on phenotype (how they look). This causes
problems, like the famous extra large bananas in the 30s, which were extremely
popular until it was discovered that they also produced an extra large dose of
cyanide. They poisoned people who ate too many.

There are lots of reasons to reject the naturist fallacy vision of "organic"
food as better. These are some of my favorites. I don't want my money to
support mass starvation, illness, and food insecurity.

~~~
smilliken
Everyone's welcome to eat whatever they like. It's about choice.

It's way off base to accuse people that want to eat food without antibiotics
or pesticides of supporting "mass starvation, illness, and food insecurity".

This isn't about us vs them, or finding the one true way to produce food.
Natural and engineered approaches will continue to exist, and that's great,
because food is too important to only have one option.

I don't understand your accusation about radiation in organic foods. Are you
suggesting that organic foods are radioactive because the seeds have been
engineered with x-ray bombardment and selection? Organic farming is not about
engineered seeds, nor would that process result in radiation in the eventual
fruit.

------
skookum
Pesticide industry shill has "an ethical problem" with eating organic due to
the tactics used by _that_ industry. Is this satire?

------
athenot
One thing I make sure to _not_ buy organic is couscous. Every time I've gotten
organic versions, there have been worms roaming around in it.

I'm not sure I agree with the article's conclusions as I generally favor
organic in the US, but having reasonable debate is healthy. In Europe I don't
bother about organic since the regulations are much stricter regarding crop
treatment.

In my own vegetable garden I currently have tomatoes and many types of fruit
berries, but I'm not doing the organic thing. The thing is, between organic
and total overdose on pesticides, there's a wide gamut. I spead weedkiller
under my blueberries so technically they aren't organic. Tomatoes will uptake
many types of herbicides so I don't use any lingering ones on that part of the
garden, however my fertilizer is not always organic.

~~~
Mediterraneo10
USA and EU guidelines allow a certain percentage of grain products sold to
contain eggs or larva. This will naturally happen regardless of whether the
product is organic or non-organic.

Also, I have never seen visible worms in organic couscous and I buy it within
the EU a few times a year. What brand was this that you bought?

------
dalore
Instead of the focus on organic and the label, I'd prefer a focus on
sustainable/regenerative agriculture
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sustainable_agriculture](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sustainable_agriculture)

The current mass farming practices (both for meat and non-meant) don't work
for the long term as they deplete and cause other resource issues.

Having them work together to continue to enrich the soil is the only way we
can continue farming. That's why going vegan isn't sustainable also. People
argue meat takes more resources, but you actually need both in the farm.

------
AdmiralAsshat
>The reality is that modern agriculture employs an integrated suite of non-
pesticidal control measures, and the actual pesticides used today are _mostly
relatively non-toxic_ to humans.

Well that watered-down endorsement sure inspires confidence!

------
chicob
Farmer here, currently engaged in Integrated Production.

In my opinion, there are many misconceptions about the practices, advantages
and disadvantages of both conventional and organic farming.

First of all there are currently three modes of production that are worth of
mention: 1) "conventional" farming, 2) integrated production, 3) organic
farming.

Conventional farming can mean many things, depending on the country we are
farming, but mainly we should interpret it as non-illegal farming in general:
anything that is within regular agronomic practice for a given location and
crop.

Organic Farming (OF) is the practice that, fundamentally, prohibits the usage
of synthetic agrochemicals. Moreover, GMOs are also prohibited and some
natural occurring fertilizers. The aim is to minimize ecological impact and
respect biodiversity, and the means of achieving that goal is to radically
change agricultural practices.

Integrated Production (IP) is somewhat half way between the two. The idea is
to leave the usage of agrochemicals for the last case scenario (and when above
the the economic threshold), when all other alternatives are not available.
Pests and diseases have to be monitored and auxiliary species levels measured
and maintained. The list of acceptable substances and respective dosages is
regulated and depends on the crop. Soil analysis is also mandatory. There are
soil maintenance practices that have to be respected. A practice register has
to be filled with each year crops, and given to certification authorities
along with pesticide and fertilizer stocks registries. The bonus is that
whatever one is allowed to do in OG one can also do in IP, generally speaking.

Currently, in the EU, the standards of conventional farming are being raised
towards IP, so that in a few years there is only either IP or OF. In other
terms, conventional farming of the future EU will be what we call today IP.

The single most important aspect of either practices is that none can go
without regulation and official certification. I don't really trust the way
regulation is enforced these days, because it's being delegated to private
companies that provide the certification for their customers.

My only issue with organic farming is the misconception that there is
something wrong with synthetic fertilizers and pesticides that doesn't come
with so-called organic or natural pesticides and fertilizers, and that the
produce of OG is healthier in general. This is not true, although many
companies benefit from this reiterated confusion. Greenwashing works better if
there is a OG logo somewhere.

My second issue with organic farming is that by avoiding some means of
protection, produce quality can decrease significantly, and whole crops can
and will sometimes be lost without need, which comes with costs to producers
but also economical consequences to food security and price volatility.

In my opinion, organic farming is only feasible in the long term with very
specific crops and for medium-small scale areas.

Other than these aspects (certification, purported health benefits and
insecurity) my advice to anyone is by all means eat organic whenever you want.
But remember there is always Integrated Production.

