
Apple says game streaming services violate App Store policies - oblio
https://www.businessinsider.com/apple-explains-why-xbox-game-pass-is-not-on-iphone-2020-8
======
mimsee
> Basically, Apple wants to be able to review every game that graces an
> iPhone’s screen, even if it’s streamed from a game server somewhere in the
> cloud.

Really wondering how Apple can think they need to have that much power. How
can they let me, a simple-minded iPhone user use the web browser without
checking every website so that the sites don't violate Apple's policies. How
do they allow 3rd party web browsers. They display loads of questionable
content, too.

And actually, I don't think that'd be too far off. Like what Google has their
Safe Browsing list containing links to malware sites, Apple could create their
own Apple Internet List, and demand through App Store policies that all
browsers implement it or else.

~~~
nostromo
How does YouTube and Netflix get approved since Apple can’t verify every video
on their platform, including videos that have yet to be published?

This reasoning is beyond absurd.

~~~
mimsee
Maybe their thinking goes along the lines of "an installable game, whether
local or not, is considered like an app, wheter it adds its own icon to the
homescreen or not, and since it's considered as an app, it must be held to
apple app store policies. now unlike youtube and netflix which primarily host
video content that don't act like an app, even though you can download content
for offline use in both apps."

~~~
spenczar5
I think it's more likely that their thinking goes along the lines of "game
installs are a ton of revenue for us; game streaming services give iPhone
users a way to pay someone else for games without us getting a cut, so we have
to stop that because we are a business and we like money."

~~~
Bombthecat
Or they want there own gamestream service in the future.

~~~
m-p-3
That wouldn't sit well in terms of antitrust if they blocked all their
competitors.

------
jrockway
I'm surprised that they bundle a web browser and allow apps like Twitch,
YouTube, Facebook, etc. Anyone could say anything through those platforms and
Apple's benevolent Content Curation Geniuses could do nothing to intervene!

I guess the reality is that nobody would buy an iPhone if those things didn't
work, but game streaming is new enough that Apple can use their large market
position to kill them instead of them killing Apple. I guess that's business
for you.

~~~
smilekzs
I sincerely hope the service providers sue Apple (and win). This is blatant
abuse of their market position. Better if the App Store gets broken up into
its own independent company.

~~~
graeme
What does that even mean?

If it has a clear meaning, can you point to a single example of the sort of
arrangement you’re talking about?

~~~
drusepth
Breaking up tech companies into smaller companies has been suggested a lot
lately, probably most notably by Elizabeth Warren's recent pushes.

A relevant quote on her approach is here:

>Apple, you’ve got to break it apart from their App Store. It’s got to be one
or the other. Either they run the platform or they play in the store. They
don’t get to do both at the same time. So it’s the same notion.

>If you run a platform where others come to sell, then you don’t get to sell
your own items on the platform because you have two comparative advantages.
One, you’ve sucked up information about every buyer and every seller before
you’ve made a decision about what you’re going to sell. And second, you have
the capacity — because you run the platform — to prefer your product over
anyone else’s product. It gives an enormous comparative advantage to the
platform.

You can find a transcript of this full interview at [1], but she's mentioned
it several times and other politicians have also made their own, similar
suggestions.

[1] [https://www.theverge.com/2019/3/9/18257965/elizabeth-
warren-...](https://www.theverge.com/2019/3/9/18257965/elizabeth-warren-break-
up-apple-monopoly-antitrust)

~~~
graeme
That’s an expansion of the original proposal, but what does it _mean_?

You’d have to in some way break the entire model of the iphone, which involves
sandboxing apps. How else could you have an app store company separate from
the device maker?

Android can have different stores but that is done through rooting correct?

You have a few game app stores on windows/mac, but no general purpose app
stores. It just isn’t a business that I know of.

Nor is the rationale explained. As long as there has been computing, OS makers
have developed software that has competed with third party. This distinction
seems like a slogan, rather than a solution.

(There may be other solutions of course)

~~~
Feolkin
Any app can prompt you to install another app without root on Android (since
Android supports installing app packages outside of the Play Store). So if
somebody wants to make an app store, they just need to publish an app that
provides downloads to other apps and that's it. New app store. It doesn't
affect how individual apps are sandboxed either. How apps are installed
doesn't change the security model of the OS. Now, Google's position is still
problematic because they clearly use their position to push the Play Store on
everybody, but it shows that separating the store from the OS actually is
quite possible.

And seriously, Apple is a hundred billion dollar company. I'm sure they can
handle this if push comes to shove. People need to stop defending these
companies as if they need the protection.

~~~
graeme
But how is that separate app store a business? The original proposal I replied
to was:

> Better if the App Store gets broken up into its own independent company.

It sounds like the actual proposal would be “make apple allow the installation
of arbitrary app packages without review”, since that would allow the app
model from android you’re talking about.

That isn’t making the app store a business, but rather changing os
permissions. It’s not clear to me “the apple app store” is a business separate
from apple.

Btw, got an example of one of those android app store apps? I’d be interested
in looking at one. I’m assuming google doesn’t review the apps you can install
with those?

> Apple is a hundred billion dollar company.

A nit, but they’re near two trillion actually

~~~
Feolkin
I'm not sure how it couldn't be a business. The App Store currently takes a
30% cut of every purchase. The business is running and developing an app store
and we already know where its revenue would come from. It wouldn't be any
different from Valve running Steam.

F-Droid is an open source alternative. Amazon has the Amazon Appstore. Samsung
has the Galaxy Store. A more complete list here:
[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Android_app_stores](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Android_app_stores)

Google has nothing to do with the curation of any of these alternative stores,
since they're owned and run by completely separate third-parties and Android
as currently designed doesn't prevent a user from installing arbitrary app
packages (apk's).

~~~
graeme
The app store has the 30% commission because apple runs it. Really not obvious
thry could have that if independent.

F droid isn’t a business, it’s a non profit. The amazon app store is mostly
for fire devices. On non-fire devices:

> The Amazon App Store is not limited to just Fire devices. While it takes a
> bit of work, the App Store can be installed on most Android devices and
> provide users with an alternative to the Google Play Store. However, the
> process requires you to enable the ability to install apps from unknown
> sources, which is highly discouraged by Google.

[https://www.businessofapps.com/news/amazon-app-store-vs-
goog...](https://www.businessofapps.com/news/amazon-app-store-vs-google-play-
store-what-are-the-differences/)

I’m sure the Samsung app store is a similar story on non-samsung devices.

Outside of games, there aren’t really any app stores on mac/pc, because you
can install anything you want. It is _the security model_ of phones that makes
app stores a thing in the first place.

A proposal to allow multiple app stores seems like a proposal to make apple
alter its security model. Alternate app stores on android involve
circumventing android’s default security model.

~~~
drusepth
I'm not the guy you're responding to, but to be clear, yes: Apple would need
to alter its security model to allow third-party app stores to exist, as they
cannot exist with its current their-apps-only model.

The app store could have a 99% commission "because Apple runs it". That's part
of the problem. If a developer wants to target iOS users, they _have_ to go
through Apple's store and agree to anything Apple says.

But, of course, that's totally legal and fine. That's not why people are
advocating breaking up the App Store. The real problem is that Apple has free
reign to remove, ban, or hinder adoption (in basically unlimited ways) any app
they want, which often equates to "apps that compete with anything Apple wants
to do as a company". Does your music streaming company want an app on iPhones?
Too bad, Apple can simply say "no" because they have Apple Music. Want to let
people buy books through your company's app? Too bad, Apple can just say no
because they have Apple Books. Want to let your existing customers access
their existing Stadia purchases on an iOS device they own? Too bad.

It's pretty basic anti-competitive and anti-consumer behavior under the guise
of needing to "review" all apps, coupled with the idea that only reviewed apps
can be installed on your phone (a paradigm that doesn't exist on other
widespread operating systems, mind you!). There's benefit in reviewing apps,
for sure, but when you, as a company, have the means and the motive to screw
over your competitors, it's often in everyone else's best interest to remove
either the means (separating the app store from Apple) or the motivation
(removing Apple's apps from the app store).

Apple's not alone in this, and they're not the only one politicians like
Warren are going after. It's not really any different from e.g. Amazon
siphoning up data on purchase patterns and then producing their own products
that they can then promote instead of their competitors on their own store.

Having third-party app stores lets Apple continue to play in their own store,
but arguably removes the means to screw over competitors by giving them an
alternate way to get their app to a user's phone and frees them from having to
agree to literally-anything-Apple-says to play on customer devices that Apple
doesn't own.

------
julianozen
I think apple caving on 3rd party app stores might be the easy regulatory
solution for Apple.

As a consumer there is definitely a tangible benefit to having the App Store
be safe and consistent. Apple can impose its technical, moral, safety, and
design philosophy on every app in its own stores like Disney or Whole Foods
might with their retail products.

But if Hey Email or ClassPass or anyone else doesn't like Apples offerings,
they can go to a 3rd party store and be available there. Like the new browser
entitlement, Apple can choose which 3rd parties are able to allow installs
(and hopefully some regulation prevents this from being anti-competitive).

There is no anti-competitive measures because there is no singular channel to
install an app on an iphone anymore. And then Apple can make their App Store
even more tightly controlled because every developer there is there by choice.
Apple can cut custom deals to keep Google, Facebook or anyone else there, but
Apple has to earn those partnerships like on the Mac App Store

~~~
madeofpalk
> But if Hey Email or ClassPass or anyone else doesn't like Apples offerings,
> they can go to a 3rd party store and be available there.

I absolutely do not want that to happen. This is no way is an actual benefit
to anyone. If Hey or ClassPass was relegated to some _other_ app store on iOS,
it may as well not exist.

~~~
thebean11
> This is no way is an actual benefit to anyone.

It's an actual benefit to anybody who is willing to jump through one tiny hoop
to get the app they want, and an actual benefit to the developers of those
apps.

The result is that Apple has to actually be competitive with its App Store. A
lot of these BS policies wouldn't last if they had to be competitive.

~~~
valuearb
98% of their policies aren’t BS, but integral to the value of the iPhone for
both consumers and developers. Ripping down that framework because of the few
rules that are counterproductive is foolish.

------
psukhedelos
I can’t help but wonder if this is a larger existential debate for Apple than
gaming.

Maybe they perceive this as a first step on a path of streaming apps in
general? As internet connectivity continues to improve, what’s to stop all
apps from simply being streamed? If they allow interactive remote gaming, why
not allow us to stream text processors, photo editing apps, etc? How would
they make any money off the App Store in a future where all apps are streamed
bypassing their system all together?

I’m not advocating for this, just bouncing the ball in an attempt to
understand their perspective. Where do you draw the line?

~~~
bob1029
Streaming apps are a huge threat to Apple's current business model. Arguably,
the gate to the kingdom had already been thrown wide open years ago with all
of the capability that currently exists in the web browsers. It's mostly just
a matter of engineering at this point to get around the censors and
gatekeepers.

There is probably nothing Apple could do to prevent some determined engineer
from building a streaming application framework that targets web instead of
native apps for delivery of final server-side rasterized content. Best they
could do is start blocking websites by IP/DNS which is arguably immediate
grounds for Apple being split up and scattered to the seven winds by the FTC.

Hypothetically, you could develop this framework and build your own app store
at myappstore.com. Instead of downloading binary images of applications from
this site, it would actually host the application directly as a streaming web
experience. For instance, accessing myappstore.com/MySocialMediaApp would be
the resource that loads a full-screen server-side-rendered view of that
specific application. All clients would just need to store a 256 bit cookie
that is used for identifying the session. Everything else could live on the
server, including 100% of the client view state. This model also makes it
trivial to share application state between users or devices.

This kind of approach should sound like a massive boon to Apple in terms of
them having absolute control & visibility, but I think they are just playing
the current development ecosystem right now.

~~~
eclipxe
Why did you specify the bit size of the cookie?

~~~
bob1029
This is the size I am currently using in one of my prototypes. As noted by
another poster, this demonstrates the lightweight client storage requirement.
All I need is sufficient entropy to uniquely and securely identify each client
from the server's perspective.

------
adamscybot
By this logic, why are any video streaming services like Netflix, YouTube and
Amazon Prime allowed on the service given they cant audit every video?

It's exactly the same logic.

~~~
coldtea
It's exactly NOT the same logic.

Videos, security, behavior etc wise, are all the same (as long as they use the
same codecs). It's the video player code that matters and might have be
audited, not each video.

Games and apps are obviously different, as they have dynamic behavior.

So it's not the same logic at all.

~~~
applethrow
I agree - it's pretty simple. Videos are not games. Literally different words.
If you think that Apple is in the wrong here, guys, you should just switch to
Android. It's a private company and they can do what they want. I appreciate
their oversight, because now I know that I can't get hacked by Microsoft
allowing bad games on their app!

~~~
leereeves
Honest question: how could you get hacked by a game running on a server and
streaming the graphics to your phone?

~~~
mimsee
I bet that coldtea and applethrow is the same person. Latter being a throwaway
account created ~10mins ago.

~~~
saagarjha
Please don't do this here, it's against the rules.

~~~
mimsee
Oh I didn't know but noted!

------
Andrew_nenakhov
I really like iPhones. But I won't ever own one if I can't sideload apps on
it. Two simple reasons:

1) I think that only I should decide if I want to run that app. The
manufacturer no longer owns the device after selling it to me

2) The corrupt government if my county likes to block apps and Apple does as
they ask. One day they'll remove the apps I really need, and it is not
acceptable for me.

~~~
lapetitejort
In the last several years I've manually installed maybe two apps on my Android
devices. I would be really upset if I couldn't use this oft-used but valuable
tool.

~~~
Andrew_nenakhov
This capability should exist. If only as a leverage against hostile anti-user
actions like the one we are discussing here.

------
n-gauge
Wait - So you can have Netflix on IOS which is a streaming service, but not
game streaming which is essentially the same thing?

~~~
mensetmanusman
Netflix wouldn’t have been allowed on iOS devices if appleTV would have been
out first :)

~~~
ansible
And even so, you're not allowed to sign up or renew your membership via an iOS
app. Heck, I don't think you're even allowed to link to a web browser page
from the app itself. Well... you are allowed to pay from the app, but then
Apple wants a 30% cut to enable that. The video streaming services have balked
at paying that. Rightly so.

------
stefan_
So game streaming is out, but video streaming is in? I take it they don't want
to give up any of that App Store game revenue should game streaming turn out
to be viable.

~~~
MaxBarraclough
> So game streaming is out, but video streaming is in?

Just what I was thinking. They allow Spotify and they don't insist on
reviewing all the songs available. They allow the Netflix and the Google Play
Movies app (and the equivalent movie streaming apps from Amazon, PlayStation,
Rakuten, etc) without reviewing all the films that can be streamed there.

I suppose interactivity is the 'category difference' there, but what are they
protecting the customer from?

~~~
badprose
Netflix already has interactive content: see Bandersnatch and Minecraft: Story
Mode.

~~~
op00to
Interactive Netflix content doesn’t work on the Apple TV.

------
nrmitchi
> Basically, Apple wants to be able to review every game that graces an
> iPhone’s screen, even if it’s streamed from a game server somewhere in the
> cloud.

I don't see how this logic doesn't also apply to Youtube, and other video-
streaming apps? I get that it's less "interactive", but it's still content
that Apple has "not reviewed".

~~~
foepys
Apple is hypocritical. They block apps for various reasons, may it be
gambling, nudity, not paying the App Store fee on transactions, not including
Apple's authentication provider, or other stuff. But they include a web
browser which can access all of this forbidden content.

As a German this American prudery is especially disturbing. We got nudity (not
sexual acts) on public daytime television...

~~~
ben_w
My first culture shock in Berlin was a rotating billboard cube advertising a
kid’s dentist, what looked like a brothel, a BMW dealership, and a massage
parlour in that order.

Even as someone raised in the UK, I find American sexual prohibition to be
disturbing, especially given the freedom America affords to express extreme
violence.

~~~
Tainnor
Berlin is a bit extreme even by German standards (let's not forget that Berlin
was basically the capital of sex as early as the 1920s). Maybe what you
remember as "looks like a brothel" was an ad for Dildoking? Those are
basically everywhere. Incidentally (not having grown up here) I wonder how
parents explain that to their kids.

But I would take this any day over the American prudishness and I find the
idea that you as a responsible adult shouldn't be allowed to install an app
with sexual content repugnant. And it was particularly ridiculous that tumblr
basically decided to commit suicide by banning NSFW content.

Although I sometimes wonder if this is really just American prudishness or if
it also has something to do with certain other markets (e.g. China) that tech
companies want to expand to.

~~~
ben_w
It wasn’t Dildoking, although I do know why you’d think that as I have seen
plenty of billboards (and fly-posters and a car) advertising them.

------
graeme
This is bad for Apple’s customers. I don’t think they’ll find it’s too their
advantage to keep pushing this, or it will become a clear advantage for
android: you can play all your games on android, and not on Apple.

Cloud gaming may be comparatively niche compared to the app market as a whole,
but what other use cases will thus extend to? Individual app developers need
Apple, but Apple needs apps in aggregate.

------
cblconfederate
I m getting sick and tired of corporate trade wars on top of national trade
wars, and the people here who always evangelize these platforms to developers.
I hope these platforms die a horrible death and we return to neutral open (and
full of spam) protocols.

------
timpetri
It seems like this exact logic would rule out any and all of the remote screen
control apps that are currently available for iOS.

~~~
dwaite
Nope. This is about limiting apps being distributed by an alternative App
Store where the content cannot be reviewed that it meets non-technical Apple
guidelines. Remote Screen Control apps and things like Steam Link are
different because the content comes from the user's hardware and data, not
from the creator of the app.

~~~
mynameisvlad
Xbox Streaming includes Console Streaming ([https://www.xbox.com/en-US/xbox-
game-streaming/console-strea...](https://www.xbox.com/en-US/xbox-game-
streaming/console-streaming))

And I really don't see how there's any sort of difference whether the game
console that's streaming the game is owned by the person or sits in some
datacenter somewhere. It's practically the same experience from the user's
perspective.

Disclaimer: MSFT employee, not in Xbox, all views are my own, etc.

------
lokar
I don't understand where the line is. There is no good technical place to draw
this "we need to review every app".

You can do almost everything the streaming service would do in a browser, but
they allow browsers.

~~~
m4rtink
Well, they actually criple browsers by forcing them to use their sub-par web
engine & don't support key web standards.

------
rightbyte
Wouldn't Apple's reasoning apply to eg. ssh-clients, screen share etc?

About xCloud I find it quite humourus that a terminal window system's name
follows the footstep of the X Window System.

~~~
sithadmin
Apple explicitly makes allowances for "generic mirroring of a host device" in
their App Store terms. Basically, remote CLI/GUI access to a general purpose
computing instance of some sort is fine; remote access clients that are walled
in to a specific app experience are generally not allowed unless some very
specific criteria are met.

Hence gaming-optimized (but still usable for general purpose) VDI like
Shadow.tech is permitted, but Stadia and its ilk are not.

~~~
hhjinks
Then Geforce Now should be permitted, since it's just a virtual desktop you
can access your game library from. But they're locked out of the app store as
well, afaik.

------
post_break
I can stream games from my PC to my Apple TV, but the second the game comes
from the cloud it's not ok? Ok apple. I hope some laws are written that force
your hand.

------
dangus
They approved the PS Remote Play app, which lets you stream your entire
PlayStation including the store.

They approved Netflix, Amazon Prime Video, HBO Max, etc, which let you stream
TV shows and movies.

They approved Kindle, which lets you stream books.

I’m failing to see why a streaming game is a violation when all the above
examples are okay.

~~~
ianwalter
Not defending it, but in regards to the PS app, the guidelines specifically
allow streaming of the users own personal devices.

~~~
dangus
True...but...

If I rent an EC2 instance, is it a personal device?

If I rent time on a Stadia instance, is that graphical output of that server a
personal device?

~~~
ianwalter
No because you don't own the machine. I believe it specifically says "owns"
but not sure. I also think the guidelines say that it has to be on a personal
network -- which I know makes no sense -- but the language was specifically
engineered to allow personal remote desktop apps when the Steam Link app was
trying to get unbanned from the store.

------
creativeCak3
Not surprised. Apple will do worse things 6 months from now. And I hate saying
that I suspect their customers will just take it. They were ok with a
“computer” that has everything glued on. Monopolistic Apps restrictions is
nothing compared to that.

------
slumpt_
This is also why they drag their heels supporting MSE in mobile Safari. They
want control.

Technological possibilities be damned. Apple doesn’t give a shit about moving
_the world_ forward, they give a shit about moving _Apple stock_ upward.

------
Darthy
So Apple claims that Netflix is okay but that new Microsoft service is not,
because the former one is a video streaming platform while the latter is a
interactive game streaming platform.

Now Apple, please explain me this: Netflix is _also_ a interactive game
streaming platform. They have Bandersnatch, Interactive Carmen Sandiego,
Interactive Puss in Boots, the Interactive Bear Grylls You vs Wild, and
freaking Minecraft Story Mode which for all intents and purposes is a fully
real game.

Netflix _is_ a game streaming service, and it's on the app store!

Apple is massively inconsistent here, and has some major explaining to do!

~~~
dragonwriter
> Apple is massively inconsistent here

The one consistent truth of the app store.

------
bisby
I'm not going to debate whether or not the services violate Apple's
handcrafted policies.

I'll just say that Apple has stupid policies. Stop using products that exist
solely to lock you into a walled garden.

~~~
freehunter
The problem comes when someone likes 95% of what the Apple ecosystem offers
but only 40% of the Android ecosystem. It’s not that easy to say “stop using
them” if the person believes the competition is even worse.

~~~
lern_too_spel
The Android ecosystem offers strictly more than the Apple ecosystem, so there
is no problem in practice.

~~~
freehunter
But it doesn’t. For what I’m looking for, it offers less. Far less. Less
stability, less support from app developers, less support from manufacturers,
less support from the vendor, less polish, a lesser tablet ecosystem, less
cross-device functionality.

The Android ecosystem “offers strictly more” in the same way a restaurant’s
trash can offers more food choice. Technically true, but I don’t want to eat
any of it. I’d rather order off the limited-but-actually-desirable menu.

~~~
lern_too_spel
> Less stability

Not my experience at all.

> less support from app developers

There are more apps on Android, and the apps do more things. I'm not sure how
you came to this conclusion.

> less polish

The productivity apps on iOS are near useless. Then Apple moved to its own
Maps, which was a disaster.

> a lesser tablet ecosystem

Android's tablets are called ChromeOS. They are a strictly better experience
than iPad, with a built-in keyboard and Linux support.

> less cross-device functionality

Its default cross-device functionality (installing apps on your device from
other devices, phone calling, voicemail, SMS, email composition sync, photo
sync, document sync, music sync) is strictly better and existed long before
iOS had anything.

All of your perceived disadvantages don't exist, and there are many other
advantages that Android has on top like system app updates without rebooting,
better security, better privacy, better development for your own devices,
better web browsers, better car apps, better multiuser support, more app
discounts due to app store competition, better gaming through streaming
services and emulation, etc.

------
Animats
Strange. The game isn't running on the phone. It's running on some server
elsewhere. The client is just a video player with more controls.

------
martell
Netflix has interactive videos with multiple story path choices which is by
definition a kind of game.

In this context it is the same as a game streaming service.

So they have already allowed Netflix to do exactly what they are banning here.

The only technical difference is you have 1 game input every 2-3 minutes vs
inputs every 2-3 ms.

~~~
recursive
Is there really a game input that runs more than 300 Hz?

------
clubsoda
If this is Apple's reasoning, then why does SteamLink on iOS exist? I can
stream games to my iPhone directly from my library. Is it because I am
streaming from my computer?

~~~
Spivak
According to their guidelines, yes. Not that there's any way to really verify
this on Apple's end but apps like this are allowed so long as they're used to
connect to your own hardware.

~~~
op00to
What about connecting to hardware owned by Amazon or Google or my employer? Is
that ok?

~~~
xsmasher
4.2.7 Remote Desktop Clients: If your remote desktop app acts as a mirror of
specific software or services rather than a generic mirror of the host device,
it must comply with the following:

(a) The app must only connect to a user-owned host device that is a personal
computer or dedicated game console owned by the user, and both the host device
and client must be connected on a local and LAN-based network.

[...]

(e) Thin clients for cloud-based apps are not appropriate for the App Store.

------
bgorman
What is limiting streaming game services from implementing this in the
browser? With javascript you can build any kind of controller overlay you
want. I guess maybe lack of physical controller support?

It seems like iOS Safari supports the W3C "Gamepad API". However I don't use
iOS and I don't play mobile games, so I am not sure how it actually works out.

~~~
Sargos
Apple doesn't allow third-party web browsers on iOS and Safari doesn't have a
good track record of supporting new web APIs and standards, so making a
successful streaming app might be possible but it'd be a precarious project at
the whims of a single company. You'd likely also have a hard time adding new
features as iOS users would be holding you back which would cripple all of
your other users by association.

------
darrinm
The Roblox iOS app is entirely populated with non-Apple approved user created
games. It also streams/downloads (non-Apple reviewed) code on demand. This
seems to be against a number of App Store policies.

Maybe Apple is OK with all of this when they get their 30% cut as they do with
Roblox because it uses Apple's in-app purchases?

~~~
antonber
Agree with this. Roblox is a cross-platform games store and both Apple and
Google constantly feature and promote it.

------
Jaxkr
This is so stupid. Every web browser has this same risk...

------
zaroth
What's missing from Safari in order to just implement this directly in a
browser window?

AFAIK, Apple has never stepped over the line of blocking specific websites.

As soon as it's possible to reliably remote stream an interface through the
browser then the App Store and pretty much any native app at all can become
totally irrelevant, offline mode aside.

If a device is reduced to a touch interface, video stream decoder, and a bunch
of radios... your upgrade cycle becomes essentially driven by the carrier
baseband upgrade cycle, which is quite slow. Who care how fast the phone CPU
runs Javascript, when the Javascript is running in the cloud?

It's like thin terminals all over again.

------
DevKoala
This is the first thing that will make me considering dropping from the iOS
ecosystem. However, if Microsoft or Google were in the same position, they’d
act the same. This has to be fixed at a legal level.

~~~
r3muxd
google wouldn't though because they already allow sideloading

------
llarsson
Was it also not forbidden to have your app interpret code, which is the reason
both for the still prevalent browser monoculture on iOS, originally
(successfully) intended as a killer of Flash?

I suppose this is the same, in a way. They can't review what games will be
played with a general-purpose game streaming app.

So this is to combat the "Flash" of today. Maybe?

(Not to mention that they can't get the 30% cut from every new game you happen
to request via the app.)

~~~
Macha
I believe you can still interpret code so long as all code that is interpreted
is bundled in your app (so no pulling down code from your server at runtime).
There was a C64 emulator way back that was allowed in with bundled legal
homebrew, but it got pulled once it was discovered there was an "easter egg"
to load arbitrary ROMs. A lot of the JS frameworks work this way, as well as
Xamarin I think.

If you want to A/B test, both versions need to present in your app and you can
use a server side flag to switch between them, but you can't pull them
dynamically, though some web view apps seem to get away with ignoring this.

------
jpalomaki
These kind of streaming apps are app stores themselves. They are a window to
another world that is not controlled by Apple.

Apple is likely worried that it may not stop at streaming games. Why not
stream other apps as well. Usability will be fine if you come up with clever
”codecs” to encode transmission of UI.

It’s true that Safari already enables this, but it has its limitations and
Apple is controlling what can be done there.

------
paulpan
To be fair, I think both sides are at fault in this specific instance (e.g.
XCloud streaming) with some seismic broader impacts.

Microsoft is at fault for not realizing that the existing App Store policies
did not include game streaming and working with Apple to resolve it from the
beginning. XCloud was first announced 2 years ago so to wait until the eve of
launch to realize this is a blocker is laughable. Then to try to publicly
escalate this is just playing with fire. Seems eerily similar to Nvidia's
GeForce Now fiasco of not having properly having agreements with game studios
before the launch.

Apple is at fault for being behind times and being draconian about App Store
policies. It's 2020 and streaming is the new norm, so to claim that it's
against policy is a bit anachronistic. App Store is no longer some niche
platform so this only strengths the antitrust case against Apple. If this is
about micro transactions and getting the 30% cut, then it's a short-sighted
move since if anything game streaming will drive adoption of iOS devices (e.g.
iPad is almost the perfect streaming display).

~~~
1propionyl
> "It's 2020 and streaming is the new norm..."

Is it really?

While I don't think Apple is doing this for any particularly good reason, I
for one would rather streaming of games not become even remotely the norm.

When games become services, all kinds of perverse incentive structures are
emphasized, in order to continue to produce revenue quarter after quarter.

Microtransactions, FOMO based season systems, loot boxes, and various forms of
applied captology to name a few.

Games, like movies and music, walk the line between commodity entertainment
and art. From what we've seen with movies and music, streaming services have
tended to shove the balance towards commoditization.

A parallel could be drawn to music streaming. See:
[https://www.thefader.com/2020/07/30/spotify-ceo-daniel-ek-
sa...](https://www.thefader.com/2020/07/30/spotify-ceo-daniel-ek-says-working-
musicians-can-no-longer-release-music-only-once-every-three-to-four-years)

What Elk is proposing is essentially what some game developers are already
doing. Annual releases of the same IP with minor gameplay changes and
different skins (Assassins' Creed, Call of Duty, etc). You can see the seeds
of a subscription model in Overwatch's "sequel but not really a sequel". Would
it really be better if instead you paid a subscription per franchise you want
to play?

------
Keverw
I wonder if Microsoft with the xCloud project could just web WebRTC in Safari
full screen? There's a gamepad API for bluetooth controllers, It seems like
mobile safari supports it from a quick Google search.

Disappointed in Apple here :( I'm a fan of them generally, but as someone
interested in game development makes me want to use Windows more lately, and
the Windows Linux Subsystem seems interesting even though haven't played with
it... I think I'd miss magic mouse and swiping between spaces... Not sure what
hardware I'd get, I have Windows in Bootcamp and it feels so awkward using it
so barely use it.

Kinda irritates me it seems like there's always 2 choices... Windows or Mac,
iPhone or Android... Kinda a concern not more competition. Sure you can run
Linux on the desktop, but you have limited app support and not as commercially
supported.

------
codemac
Using websites instead of apps becomes cooler and cooler.

~~~
hu3
Not on iOS where the only browser engine allowed is Apple's webkit.

------
jedberg
I wonder, if streaming video on the internet was just starting to be a thing
now (like Netflix 10 years ago), would they even allow it on the iPhone, or
would they use some BS excuse about not allowing streaming apps because they
can't vet all the content first.

------
shmerl
They shouldn't be dictating such kind of policies, when there are no easy ways
to install alternative stores. Same story with ban on non Apple browsers in
their store.

Anti-trust should really blast them for it, plain and simple. Apple got away
with this garbage for way too long.

------
mensetmanusman
Oh, I use RDP and VNC to play minesweeper on my PC with my iPad.... hope they
don’t find out!

------
dvfjsdhgfv
Whenever a "violation of policy" is cited, a certain language trick is at
play. The term "violation" has a negative vibe, its aim is to make the reader
feel as if some real violation happened, almost an act of violence. Instead,
what it really means in this context, is simply that Apple doesn't like any
loophole that would let anyone avoid the fee for any purchase related to any
app available in their app store.

------
vaxman
The worst part is how they are inspiring the next generation of tech gangsters
to behave this way. I seriously doubt Tim Apple could be this moronic and
still be brilliant on the process side. The fail idiots will be fine in
retirement, really. But in the meantime the kids are thinking this is the way
to make my crumb-based startup into the next two trillion dollar company just
like Steve Jobs did.

------
bsaul
"Before they go on our store, all apps are reviewed against the same set of
guidelines that are intended to protect customers and provide a fair and level
playing field to developers."

As an iphone customer and an iphone developer, let me just say apple can just
go f __* themselves... This hypocrisy is making me mad. the OS is secure, the
access permissions are secure, at this point the only thing they need to
ensure is that the game store isn 't a scam and then it'll be fine. So,
please, stop pretending it's to protect anyone (or in this case macOS doesn't
provide a secure environment, right ?).

Just admit it's for your own personal greed, and that you're leveraging a
totally unfair position to impose your app store to win against its
competitors.

~~~
pchristensen
I have kids, and one of my primary difficulties is limiting their screen time,
and to a lesser extent, content. I appreciate having Apple as one gatekeeper
that I can trust and learn to operate. I don't want a Wild West, and I
consider these restrictions one of the reasons I pay Apple's premium.

~~~
Wowfunhappy
Apple allows Candy Crush, Clash of Clans, and all manner of other games using
addictive psychological tactics onto the App Store.

If you're more concerned about "gamer-centric" titles, there's also Fortnite
and F2P versions of Call of Duty.

How is not allowing streaming Xbox games limiting screen time?

------
gerash
I don't think there's any point in discussing the nuances of an arbitrary set
of rules. Let's hope Microsoft or Google give Apple a more serious competition
on the hardware front.

Apple will continue to make it more and more expensive for its customers to
switch away (as any other company would) so there better be more leverage for
the consumers either through competition or regulation.

------
katktv
Been like this for a while, because games are supposedly apps to Apple and
thus they don't allow app marketplaces as apps.

------
figassis
Seems like apple has become the Microsoft of old, with the developer and
consumer antagonistic policies.

------
mmcconnell1618
The Stadia app is available in the ios store and has been. Not sure where this
article got the info that it isn't available.

[https://apps.apple.com/app/apple-
store/id1471900213](https://apps.apple.com/app/apple-store/id1471900213)

~~~
qcz
Did you actually read the app description?

"You can’t use the Stadia app to play games directly on an iOS device, but you
can use the app to manage Stadia on other devices."

It is a Stadia manager, not Stadia itself...

------
eqtn
Everything can be made to steam. Adobe can make all its apps steamable with a
subscription, then they don't have to create separate versions for each. They
even can have customized hardware in their datacenters. Maybe Apple is worried
about this losing game.

------
newbie578
Can't wait for the App Store to get regulated by the EU so that Apple finally
has to drop at least some of its monopolistic and hegemonial behaviour. And by
reading the (irrational) comments here, that will be a day of griefing which I
will be more than glad to gloat at.

------
dzonga
must be good to be a taxman, while not running a gvt. all the benefits none of
the downsides

------
vertis
Next they'll be saying that remote desktop clients violate their policies
because you can technically use apps on the remote desktop.

Honestly. This is pure greed from Apple. When is someone going to come along
and bring Antitrust cases against them.

------
halvo
How can they allow game streaming apps like Steam Link but not xCloud/Stadia

~~~
ansible
It wouldn't surprise me if that is next on the chopping block.

Does Steam Link allow you to purchase games from the app?

------
fermienrico
I kind of support the gatekeeping Apple does. Usually, that leads to better
services, safety and privacy.

I don’t want a third party app for parental controls for example. I trust
third parties far less than Apple.

------
bertronic
iOS is a competitor to Xbox in gaming. Apple sells games in the App Store and
they have their own game subscription service, Apple Arcade. Should Microsoft
be forced to allow Stadia or Steam Link on Xbox? Must Sony Allow xCloud on
PlayStation? Of course not. Just because you can do more than play games on
your iPhone doesn’t mean that Apple has some obligation to bolster their
competition by allowing them on their platform.

------
not2b
At some point, the better-positioned developers need to just say no to Apple,
and produce enough content that only works with Android that Apple has to give
in.

~~~
ianwalter
That's not going to work. Apple has been in that position for so long with
Windows that it's built into their DNA. Regulation is probably the only thing
that will work.

------
rafaelturk
I wonder What kind of policy allows Youtube, Netflix Apps?

------
berbec
What they mean - Apple says game streaming services that don't do billing
through Apple Pay, and give Apple their tithe, violate App Store Policies.

------
Fire-Dragon-DoL
How is Steam handling this by the way? It is accepted on iOS, but the steam
library is way bigger and it includes adult-only games

------
chj
You can ignore AppStore policies and guidelines, they keep reinventing new
interpretations. The one true rule is hand over our cuts.

------
jmull
A lot of apps have a mix of executing logic locally and remotely.

A “streaming” app just means more of it is executing remotely.

It’s hard to see why the App Store review criteria should be different for an
app depending on its internal execution architecture.

Now, I don’t agree with various App Store policies. But that’s a separate
issue. I think they should revise those policies for everyone, not just have a
loophole for some apps that run more of their logic remotely than others.

------
Rapzid
Heh, it's not really the game streaming Apple takes exception to; it's the
revenue streaming.

------
jacquesm
It's a matter of time then before Safari will only display apple.com and
nothing else. /s

------
ellis0n
That confuses me, we will not be able to see an independent live broadcast
from Mars

------
Fire-Dragon-DoL
Question: isn't this thing valid also for tv shows from, e. G. Netflix?

------
thayne
What makes streaming games different than streaming videos or audio?

------
msie
Yes, let's not forget Apple is in the business to make money.

------
julioo
It’s time to rollback and put priority on web app and webgl.

------
justinzollars
Of course it does Apple. Thats the point.

------
OMGCable
Youtube? Netflix? How are they approved?

------
iphone_elegance
The entire apple ecosystem is a sham

------
dang
Url changed from
[https://www.gsmarena.com/apple_says_game_streaming_services_...](https://www.gsmarena.com/apple_says_game_streaming_services_like_microsofts_xcloud_violate_app_store_policies-
news-44656.php), which points to this.

------
AviationAtom
*We don't want anyone to bypass us getting a cut of their revenues

------
mschuster91
> Basically, Apple wants to be able to review every game that graces an
> iPhone’s screen, even if it’s streamed from a game server somewhere in the
> cloud.

So... two options: Either they're after the 30% revenue cut from in-app
purchases or it's once again American prudeness (i.e. they don't want nudity
or sexual content in games) at play. Or both.

~~~
bsaul
Because you can't access porn using safari ?

They create and provide a web browser. Meaning, an app that lets you access
all the violence, porn, and degrading content the world has ever produced. By
default. Just unwrap your brand new iphone, turn it on, and bam, you got "sex"
just by typing it.

~~~
zepto
Safari is subject to parental controls as are app purchases.

~~~
foepys
The first thing a child is doing with their phone/computer is circumventing
those parental "controls". You cannot give your child a computer and put all
responsibility on some software. Whoever thinks that those controls are
flawless will have to face a harsh reality. If a child wants to find boobs in
a web browser, it will.

The only way is to disallow the web browser completely and we all know that
every child will at some point "have to do research for homework" and then
search for boobs.

------
bookmarkable
Tired of all the whining of people upset that Apple enforces its own rules of
its own store on its own platform.

If you install a cloud gaming product, it effectively acts as a wrapper for
any and all games added. Yes, Apple wants and requires games to be installed
to use their latest hardware. Not just stream from Microsoft, Google, or
anyone else. Duh. They sell hardware and related services. Why would they
allow a product that is antithetical to their core businesses?

An iPhone is not just a dumb terminal for any company to sell anything for any
price. If you don't agree and want a free for all, other companies make other
products. Don't buy an iPhone.

As for this immature notion that Apple is "greedy" \- it is a BUSINESS. Tim
Cook and every other exec have a legal responsibility to increase revenues,
profits and ultimately shareholder value.

They don't get to sit in a drum circle and smoke out until someone suggests
"hey, let's just let Microsoft take over the AppStore Games category and hope
whatever they stream to our users will leverage our newest innovations and
drive new device purchases every once in a while."

It doesn't work that way. It never will.

------
applethrow
I don't see why this is controversial. Apple is a PRIVATE company and so they
can do whatever they want. As a loyal Apple customer, I'm glad that they are
doing everything they can to make sure iOS is a consistent experience! People
keep on saying that this is an overstep, or worse, that this is just
transparent greed. But that is wrong, Apple is merely defending the walled
garden they have created. Think of all the value Apple has added to each of
our lives. It is only fair that they should get a fair return on that
environment that enables us iOS developers to make a meager living.

~~~
Daishiman
There has never been a time in history where being a private company means
that you get to do whatever you want.

