
Girl Scouts Embraces STEM and Adds New Badges - dpflan
http://www.girlscouts.org/en/about-girl-scouts/girl-scouts-and-stem.html
======
ffmike
I'm a Girl Scout leader in the Midwest. Most of the leadership in this area
(adult & youth) is at best skeptical about this initiative, and at worst
openly hostile. Girls do not come to Scouting to learn about financial
literacy and cybersecurity. They come to spend time with their friends, to be
outdoors, to have parties, to do craft-y things. The cost of some of the new
badges is also a great concern.

~~~
clarkevans
_I 'm a Girl Scout leader in the Midwest. Most of the leadership in this area
(adult & youth) is at best skeptical about this initiative, and at worst
openly hostile._

Young ladies face a cultural up-hill challenge with STEM expectations. Girls
are told, for example, that they shouldn't bother with video game
construction, but instead should learn knitting. As a parent, I have first
hand experience with well-meaning social institutions that actively discourage
science, technology, engineering, and mathematics.

 _Girls do not come to Scouting to learn about financial literacy and
cybersecurity. They come to spend time with their friends, to be outdoors, to
have parties, to do craft-y things._

In an enthusiastic environment, my 7 year old daughter and her friends enjoy
MIT Scratch just as much as the boys. She's very into her transaction journal
where she records her allowance income and outgoing expenses, adding up the
numbers weekly with a new account balance. She likes to take her microscope
outside to look at bug wings, etc.

~~~
Spearchucker
I don't think ffmike was trying to denigrate, discourage or otherwise be
negative about STEM. Rather, the suggestion is that there might be other,
better places for STEM than Girl Scouts.

Which is just as true for Boy Scouts.

~~~
meheleventyone
Not really as a boy in the UK I got a programming badge in Cub Scouts in the
80s. Which was about the only venue I could have got some recognition for that
ability at that age. I think it's a great idea to recognise STEM skills in
venues that are socially important to children at that age.

~~~
Spearchucker
Recognition is not something I want my son to learn to crave. I got into
computers in the '80s of my own volition, in an environment where I was
ridiculed for my interest (being a nerd/geek in the 80's was ensuring you had
no friends).

If my kid shows an interest in a thing I will support him in that, but I will
never push him. Recognition comes from being exceptional, not for being able
to open a command prompt or writing a Hello World app.

~~~
24gttghh
If you never push your kid, even just a little with kindly parental
suggestions, I fear you may raise a un-motivated dullard.

~~~
Spearchucker
If I push my kid, even just a little with kindly parental suggestions, I
fear...

Hey who knows. You're probably right. I'm probably right. That's parenting. I
try to facilitate his learning by letting him play. It's how I grew up. And
yes, I'm not that naïve that I think I can give my child my childhood.

He's a human being, and a human beginning. As such he must (and will) find and
tread his own path. My job is to show him how exceptional his path might
become. His job is to choose the degree of exceptionalism he desires.

~~~
Tenhundfeld
Yeah, I think a parent's responsibility is to expose your kid to things they
might like or find fulfilling, but it's up to the young individual to pursue
it.

The tricky part is that sometimes you have to push a bit to expose them to
something out of their comfort zone. Take learning a musical instrument, as an
example.

The first couple of months of learning an instrument aren't a huge amount of
fun (for most people). It's legitimately frustrating. IMO, it's okay to push
your kid a little bit. For example, make the child take at least 3 months of
lessons with two different instruments, of their choosing, and if at the end
of that, they still have no interest in learning an instrument, okay, that's
fine. We can move on to sculpting or painting or programming or origami or
gardening or dance or whatever.

The point is that kids are discovering the world and to a large degree, don't
really know what they like or don't like yet. You have to expose them to a lot
of things to find something that resonates with them, and at times, you may
have to push them a bit, to get past the initial hump of awkwardness or
frustration. I think that's healthy and responsible.

That doesn't mean you should force your child to take 10 years of violin when
they hate it. I think a lot of parents fall into the trap of trying to force
their kid to enjoy hobbies the parents enjoy or hobbies they think their child
_should_ enjoy. It's fine to start with those (hey, why not), but ultimately
you have to listen to the child and understand the difference between
temporary frustration and permanent personality incompatibility with some
activity.

~~~
civilitty
At the same time though, as a parent you have the long term outlook that is
largely impossible for a child to develop on their own (before adulthood, at
least). The vast majority of people have regrets about things they didn't do
as a kid and while pushing their offspring to make up for their own childhood
is dangerous, you have to strike a balance. Soft skills like being able to
devote time to practice and doing something that you're not quite into are
valuable on their own, even if interest in the actual field never develops.

I was one of those kids who hated guitar and piano lessons for _years_ as my
parents pushed me into them. I was never very good and hated practicing but
nowadays, I really wish that I had taken it more seriously. There are so many
uses for my time now that I can't bring myself to commit to learning a musical
instrument from scratch but I crave the creative outlet of playing music. My
parents' approach to many such subjects was the complete opposite to their
approach to programming, which started with the guidance and material help of
an IT admin from my mother's university even before the first music lessons.
They were completely hands off and I was all the better for it, but I can't
help but think that if maybe they had combined the two approaches to music,
like they did by hiring a really good teacher for painting & drawing, I
wouldn't be lamenting the way the chips fell.

------
debacle
This is probably the most positive "more girls should do STEM" initiative I've
encountered yet.

> Financial Literacy badges prepare girls for a financially sound future.

This seems exceptionally progressive.

~~~
sp332
I can't tell if this comment is meant as an insult. Anyway I think too many
potential teachers have passed the buck on teaching financial literacy to
young people, and I'm glad to see someone make an effort.

~~~
softawre
I highly doubt this is sarcasm or an insult.

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JadeNB
I'm a math educator. Although of course I want to see more women in STEM, I've
never been directly involved in the appropriate outreach. With that lack of
qualification firmly established, I hope I may say that this is a wonderful
thing.

Anything that successfully shows STEM can be a "girlish" activity (literally
in the sense of something girls do) is to be applauded; and hopefully this
effort, in a pre-existing mentorship structure, will have a knock-on effect
wherein older mentors (I don't know what they're called in the Girl Scouts)
can serve as direct examples (of women in STEM) and as positive role models.

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Waterluvian
I love it. Let's go a step further: make one set of boy and girl scout badges
from the union of both sets.

~~~
ajross
Entirely different organizations with different purposes and goals.

~~~
tnecniv
Interestingly, only the US and Japan have gendered scouting organizations.

(Might be wrong on this, it's been at least a decade since I learned that)

~~~
microcolonel
> Interestingly, only the US and Japan have gendered scouting organizations.

> (Might be wrong on this, it's been at least a decade since I learned that)

And Canada. UK has partially-gendered scouting, but the boyscout organization
becomes co-ed after a certain age, the girl side can remain separate
indefinitely. I think it's somewhat separated in México as well, they have
more different associations though, AFAIK.

I think most countries which have scouting organizations have a gender
separation.

~~~
mattrad
UK Scouting is fully non-gendered for all ages; see Scouting for All and the
Equal Opportunities Policy: [http://scouts.org.uk/about-us/key-policies/equal-
opportuniti...](http://scouts.org.uk/about-us/key-policies/equal-
opportunities-policy/).

UK Guiding allows girls and young women, but fully supports gender self-
identification: [https://www.girlguiding.org.uk/making-guiding-
happen/policie...](https://www.girlguiding.org.uk/making-guiding-
happen/policies/girlguiding-policies/equality-and-diversity-
policy/transgender-gender-reassignment/).

Scouting and Guiding in the UK are refreshingly progressive organisations.
Source: current Scout leader.

~~~
fastball
So what your saying is: as a self-identified male, I can't be a UK Guide?
Sounds gendered to me.

~~~
Samathy
No, you can't. Because girls need a safe space to be girls (without any boys
around) a lot more than boys need any more spaces where they can be boys
without any girls around (there's enough of those).

~~~
microcolonel
> No, you can't. Because girls need a safe space to be girls (without any boys
> around) a lot more than boys need any more spaces where they can be boys
> without any girls around.

Please substantiate this.

> there's enough of those

Name one that isn't a sports team.

------
nxc18
This is amazing. I especially appreciate how broad and inclusive it is. I hate
the idea that a bunch of girls are going to do 'girls who code' or similar
things, not like it, and think STEM isn't for them. Coding sucks sometimes and
it is so important that we include all of stem (personally I prefer STEAM,
stem + art).

I don't like math, probably as a result of terrible scarring experiences in
elementary school. But I still love technology and coding. We need to allow
girls the flexibility to learn about all of stem and find out what will
provide for 70+ years of happiness and productivity.

~~~
spencerflem
I don't understand the point of STEAM. From what I can tell, the use of STEM
is to describe the math-y type pursuits. Art, etc.. doesn't fit at all. It's
not a bad thing to not be a STEM field, just different. I absolutely think
that we should emphasize art more than we are now, but that doesn't make it
STEM.

~~~
SOLAR_FIELDS
You could make a good philosophical argument that a significant portion of the
technology industry for most workers today is art. Code structuring and design
is art. Becoming a good leader is an art. Scientific research is an art form.
Teaching properly is art. We should not discount the creative aspect in what
we do.

~~~
snakeanus
> Code structuring and design is art

No, it's applied mathematics. You could argue that mathematics are "art" but
then you would need a really wide and probably useless definition of "art" as
almost everything would be art.

~~~
clentaminator
I see this a lot and never quite understand it. Code structuring to me seems
more like a craft, something that is improved through experience and wisdom
and not abstract rules.

------
joycey
As a former Girl Scout I think this is excellent. I think it'll be much easier
to get girls to explore STEM activities if it's associated with an
organization they're already involved in.

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vacri
... not sure why 'video game development' is in Science and Technology rather
than Digital Art. Good on 'em though, hope it flourishes.

~~~
rainbowmverse
It would depend on how they define development. The people who do the art and
the people who do the code are rarely the same person, even in smaller indie
games.

~~~
vacri
Programming is a craft, and is much closer to photoshop than physics.

~~~
snakeanus
I would argue exactly the reverse.

~~~
fastball
As a software engineer with a degree in Physics and a degree in Biomedical
Engineering, you're both wrong.

~~~
vacri
I'm a software engineer with a degree in neurophysiology (partial phd), though
no degree in physics (just an interest). Would you care to actually back up
your appeal-to-authority there with some actual commentary? Or are we just
going to compare dick sizes?

~~~
fastball
Sure.

A craft is something you get better at by improving the constituent skills
that are required in that craft. For instance, in woodworking, it takes some
level of skill to work with hammer and nails, or to sand a board, etc. etc.

So programming is not a craft.

Programming, at its core, is problem solving, and getting better at
programming requires improving one's problem solving ability. Physics is also
about problem solving, and is likewise improved by improving one's PS ability.

However, having heavily experienced both, I would say that they are very
different types of problem solving. Modern programming is a lot of trial and
error, ala any other type of "invention". "I did not fail, I now know 1000
ways to _not_ make a lightbulb" \- Edison.

Modern physics is not really trial and error. Physics is applied math. You
take some fundamental principles, combine them together in a logical way, and
get something new. At a high level, that sounds like programming. But for me
personally, and I think for many people, the fundamental thought process and
approach to problem solving in the two fields is very different.

~~~
cr0sh
> Modern programming is a lot of trial and error

If you follow Uncle Bob's TDD methodology, it becomes much less so.

------
Spearchucker
It doesn't necessarily need to be enforced, but facilitated at least. Boys
can't truly be boys unless there are no girls. As such there is a time for
boys to be alone; with boys; a time with girls, and a time with adults. Each
comes with a set of social rules, and degrees of letting their hair down.

Gender equality is important. Critical, even, given society's propensity to
marginalise and objectify women. But gender emancipation should not come at
the cost of emasculation.

~~~
RodericDay
> Boys can't truly be boys unless there are no girls.

I disagree. In fact, I think this kind of stuff is very harmful for
development.

Imagine telling someone that they need "white-only" time, to unburden
themselves from the special requirements imposed by hanging out in mixed
company. It only serves to perpetuate out-sized notions of existing
differences between genders.

~~~
microcolonel
> Imagine telling someone that they need "white-only" time

Boys and girls (at least the majority of them) behave and socialize visibly
differently, and can benefit from it. Races do not have the same sorts of
inherent distinct needs, and if they do it's typically more granular than
"white" or "black"; more likely you want time with the Italian side of your
family, or the Somali side, or with your girlfriend's Panjabi roots.

Why do you think so many women occasion a " _girls '_ night out", or men "hang
out with _the guys_ "?

Boys and girls have a lot more significant physiological and sociological
differences than whites and blacks. Whereas, for example, the noticeable
differences between a Japanese woman and a Mestizo woman come down to things
like whether the earwax is likely dry or oily, or the probable size of teeth
or lips. These sorts of things have basically no relevance or importance to
social relationships.

Drawing meaningful distinction between the cohort characteristics of boys and
girls is not sexist. I have no interest in determining the rights or freedoms
of either group based on these characteristics. I would merely suggest that
people in either cohort are likely to have needs that differ more than within
each cohort. A hen and a rooster are both chickens, but they are meaningfully
distinct as well.

~~~
RodericDay
> Why do you think so many women occasion a "girls' night out", or men "hang
> out with the guys"?

Cultural momentum. They inherit the habit from older generations. May as well
ask why Swedes love saunas, or why asian cuisine uses chopsticks.

My friend crowds have not had anything resembling those segregated nights out
in forever, and in fact, headway is being made insofar women have men in their
bridal parties and vice-versa.

> These sorts of things have basically no relevance or importance to social
> relationships.

You haven't made a case for why the physiological differences between men and
women have relevance.

------
ekianjo
Since when is video game development considered a science topic?

~~~
mediocrejoker
Video game development actually involves a lot of science and engineering and
can require advanced 3D math, logic, psychology, etc.

~~~
ekianjo
I beg to pardon but I highly doubt that the level they will practice at is
ever going to touch upon any advanced topic you suggest, and not all games run
in 3D either. Science is about observation and deriving insights and rules
from what you see, video games is largely more of an engineering problem that
typical science/exploration.

~~~
throwawayjava
_> Science is about observation and deriving insights and rules from what you
see_

Is mathematics a science?

How about mathematics within a pre-defined discipline (e.g., doing novel work
on group theory without inventing new axioms/structures)? Is that science?

If you include mathematics in the sciences, which I think we should, then it's
hard to see how video game development is non-scientific.

(Besides which, the old trope about AI applies also to science. AI is AI until
it becomes useful, then it's no longer AI and becomes some other branch of CS.
All of engineering is science until it becomes useful, then it's no longer
science but some branch of engineering.)

 _> video games is largely more of an engineering problem that typical
science/exploration._

For one, video games are a great way to understand the strengths and
limitations of simulation in science. And basically all fields of science
these days have a corresponding field of computational science focused on
using simulations to better understand the underlying science. So, it's
important.

~~~
dragonwriter
> Is mathematics a science?

No, it's purely analytical, not empirical. Mathematics provides essential
tools used in science, but is not science.

~~~
throwawayjava
Well then ekianjo's argument is even weaker, because "STEM" now clearly
includes at least one thing that is unambiguously not "science"...

(besides which, there are some obvious problems here -- not least of which is
that many sciences rely on mathematical objects in probability and statistics
to determine what is and is not true about observations. IMO modern science is
inseparable from mathematics, and concrete mathematical objects form most of
the philosophical substrate of modern scientific practice... so, if "science"
is separated from "mathematics", that's only the case in some primitive high
school understanding of how modern science is actually performed in reality.
Maybe that's a problem with how science is performed in reality, but AFAICT it
seems to be working pretty well in most areas with some notable huge
exceptions.)

~~~
dragonwriter
It would be kind of silly to say “Science, Technology, Engineering, and Math”
if the latter three were subsets of the former rather than related (and
sometimes overlapping) but distinct categories.

~~~
throwawayjava
Sure, I think we're agreeing on the question at hand.

------
aaron695
It's funny.

If it was Boy scouts is introducing sewing, cake making etc. The response
would be along the lines of, that's great in theory but in practice boys just
won't join Boys Scouts anymore.

~~~
muninn_
But if you introduce it as cooking, that's a whole different ball game.
Besides, baking is a little bit impractical while camping compared to, idk,
cooking eggs over an open fire?

I'm not really against the STEM push in Girl Scouts I guess, I'm indifferent
to it. Maybe it'll get a few more women interested in the field which is cool.

~~~
humanrebar
> baking is a little bit impractical while camping

You can bake lots of stuff with a campfire and a dutch oven.

~~~
muninn_
Sure let me pack icing, maybe some cupcake molds, and a pie dish too?

It's impractical.

~~~
greglindahl
Let's see:

* There's a brand of dutch oven endorsed by the Boy Scouts of America

* Scouting magazine has printed many articles with recipes for dutch ovens [https://scoutingmagazine.org/category/outdoors/cooking/dutch...](https://scoutingmagazine.org/category/outdoors/cooking/dutch-ovens/)

* Boy's Life magazine runs articles about cooking in a dutch oven

~~~
muninn_
Sure ok. Clearly when we think of "having boys bake" we're talking about Dutch
ovens and not baking cookies. Yup.

~~~
greglindahl
I was only addressing baking while camping. As a man, I also bake while I'm
not camping, like many other men.

~~~
muninn_
Right but you are doing so in an disingenuous way. I like baking too.
Referring to "girls baking" implies cupcakes, cookies, frosting, and cakes.
All of which are impractical while camping.

~~~
greglindahl
I'm not being disengenuous at all, and I don't imply that when _I_ say "girls
baking".

~~~
muninn_
Ya you do. Otherwise nobody would have been talking about it. The cultural
norm when somebody mentions baking in this context and "boys doing it"
revolves around things like cupcakes and cookies and what not. It's obvious.
It's not a point of contention to anybody here except you, for reasons unknown
to me.

