
Network Determines Success More Than People Realize - muzz
https://medium.com/swlh/your-network-determines-success-more-than-you-realize-41a3e889ecea
======
dorkwood
I use to think of networking as “going to events and handing out my business
card”, which I could never quite bring myself to do. I figured I just wasn’t
cut out for the whole networking thing.

What I ended up realising after looking back over my career was that I’ve been
networking this whole time without even meaning to. By generally working hard
and being friendly those who have come and gone over the years, I now have a
pretty sizeable network of people who will vouch for me. If someone ever asks
me for networking advice, it will be “find a job where other people are doing
the same thing as you, and then become someone they enjoy working with”.

~~~
leereeves
The dark side of that is discrimination when "someone they enjoy working with"
is based on more than a friendly attitude and hard work.

And I'm not just talking about the politically favored and protected groups.
I'd say it applies even more so to groups that don't get that political
support.

~~~
jniedrauer
We don't live in a fair society, and I think we all know that. I would not
have experienced the same degree of success if I looked different or had an
accent, even if the quality of my work was the same. There's nothing
meaningful I can do with that information though.

~~~
ralusek
>"We don't live in a fair society"

I think it's more correct to say that "the state of nature is incredibly
unfair, and our society does not perfectly mitigate this."

------
ZeroFries
How do those who move often (or at least a few times in their lives) manage to
re-establish a network in the areas they move to? I think a lot of the reason
people are reluctant to move for better opportunities on paper is the fear of
the sudden lack of network.

~~~
breakpointalpha
This is a real problem that I have faced on more than one occasion.

Best advice I can offer is "clubs", but I've had mixed success.

By clubs I mean, tennis clubs, golf clubs, social clubs, etc. This is where
church used to have a big part to play in the social fabric of America.

~~~
ghaff
Most of my professional networking is virtual mixed in with traveling to some
events (and, of course, work colleagues though I work remotely). I do local
activities with a couple clubs as well as more ad hoc things, which is good
from a social perspective, but TBH it's never been especially relevant from a
professional/job perspective.

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isolli
It reminds me of this research [0] showing that sons of wealthy slave owners
(who presumably lost a large chunk of their "wealth" after the civil war) had
caught up or surpassed sons from similarly wealthy households by 1880.

Conclusion: "This paper adds another data point to our understanding of
intergenerational wealth transmission. Our conclusion: it’s not the resources
here, it’s the social connections."

[0]
[https://twitter.com/leah_boustan/status/1112689110819442690](https://twitter.com/leah_boustan/status/1112689110819442690)

~~~
gwern
It's an amazing paper but their interpretation of the results that "it's all
social connections" is completely unsupported by their evidence and more
consistent with standard human-capital / genetic inheritance.

~~~
danharaj
Could you elaborate?

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SmellyGeekBoy
More than who realizes? Having been in business for 10 years now I'll tell you
for free that networking is _everything_.

~~~
charlesdm
With the right people, yes. You generally don't meet those at "networking"
events. If anything, you'll find other peddlers trying to sell you something.
You do meet those by throwing dinner parties, talking to and meeting
interesting people, going to charity events, and through hobbies.

~~~
whytaka
I would appreciate an intro course on this.

~~~
charlesdm
It's a bit hard to write this down in a HN comment. I would guess the best
answer to that is, be genuinely curious about other people.

~~~
doorbellguy
Wish someone here had advice for an absolute beginner who is about to graduate
and get into the working sector.

~~~
kkarakk
1\. if you hate your company culture it's not going to get better without
effort. either get out or start trying to improve it yourself

2\. networking in your company is not possible if you're in a job that is
below your capabilities, go out and find your tribe asap.

3\. take people out for coffee/food/drinks(depending on your culture)

4\. attend every tech event in your area regardless of your interest/skill
level. create tech events in your area for your interests

~~~
doorbellguy
Thank you so much.

------
bradam
Network scientist Zsolt Barabási said [1] that in his latest book that
networking is one of the most important thing to do, if you want to be
successful.

Of course, first you need to get some valuable skills, but especially in
careers where the performance can’t be ordered (e.g: art, design) the only
thing that matters is to know people who are well known.

[1] [https://www.amazon.com/Formula-Universal-Laws-
Success/dp/031...](https://www.amazon.com/Formula-Universal-Laws-
Success/dp/0316505498)

~~~
KingFelix
His book was pretty good, skimmed through some of the extra examples, but
networking is key.

I consider myself a super connector, and more often than not find myself in
the right place at the right time, making connections for friends, colleagues,
acquaintances, etc. I love bringing people together, changing the world ~

------
PlasticTank
I'm quite sure people do realize this hence the saying "It's not what you know
but who you know"

~~~
chrisweekly
In practice it's more like "It's not who you know, it's who knows you."

~~~
pengstrom
I think the "know" is meant to be the symmetrical kind.

~~~
chrisweekly
Sure -- but the emphasis belongs w/ the other (who is in a position to help
you).

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wallflower
I like this definition of who is in your network that I came across years ago.
Someone is in your network if they can recognize you if they see you in person
(name tags do not count), know what you were last working on, and you had some
contact with them in the last three months.

We may argue that having someone recognize you in person is not a hard
requirement in this age.

~~~
jedberg
My friends are so polyglot that I don't even know what my best friends are
working on 1/2 the time. But I can tell you what they were _last_ working on.

~~~
wallflower
Yes, to clarify, I meant exactly what you said: the point-of-time snapshot of
when you last heard from them

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Nasrudith
I can't help but wonder about the tautologies of such a system. If you only
hire people with silly hats and spend 70% of their time on sillier hats you
are missing out on actual talent with stupid tautologies instead of anything
of intrinsic worth. Essentially I suspect that networks don't bring success in
many cases but prevent it in others.

The real question is what keeps networks from being collective madness in
service of themselves? The closest thing I have found is competition smacking
them in the face with objective reality.

History and the present is rife with bad ideas perpetuated by networks -
perhaps the reason why science advances one funeral at a time even in face of
evidence that it really doesn't work that way. Look at miasma theory and their
resistance to germ theory even after cholera outbreaks where brewers were
untouched because they got some pay in beer.

WW2 era Imperial Japan was a particularly bad example given things like Banzai
Charges and acknowledging weakness being socially unacceptable to the point of
thinking even complete destruction of the navy of a much larger and self-
sufficient industrial naval power over oil sanctions would somehow result in
restoring oil supplies instead of eventually coming over with a much bigger
navy and airforce in a decade /in the avsolute best case scenario/.

~~~
rmah
"The real question is what keeps networks from being collective madness in
service of themselves?"

Competition keeps it from being that.

------
api
At this point it should be obvious that network effects of every kind are the
largest single determining factor in success, yet so many continue to believe
in naive meritocracy.

~~~
airstrike
One could argue there is merit in building a large, meaningful network

~~~
api
Perhaps, but this is only one narrow kind of merit and it's responsible for a
disproportionately large fraction of the outcome.

Networks also have gravitational type dynamics that accrue more network
influence to existing influencers, so there's a huge path dependent effect
where some nodes get rich network-wise by just being lucky or first.

~~~
airstrike
If those nodes are the ones that get results from leveraging their networks,
then it's better for the company.

I'm not saying it's "fair", just that one could argue networks are a good
proxy for results, so it makes sense to reward them from the company's
perspective.

~~~
api
> good proxy for

The idea that it's good or clever to use rough proxies for things is one of
the worse ideas to spread kind of virally through various intellectual
communities in recent years. I feel like it may have spread via Less Wrong or
some similar place but I'm not sure and it doesn't really matter.

Proxies for things are something you use when you can't get at the underlying
reality directly. All proxies hide something and all proxies confound by
mixing inputs in often non-linear and unknown ways.

In the human realm the use of proxies is a source of unfairness and injustice,
so it's particularly important to avoid them there whenever it's possible.

Not using proxies means dealing more directly with reality. "Reason from first
principles, not by analogy."

~~~
airstrike
Sure, you're entitled to your opinion.

Proxies are useful. Reality is complicated. I'm fine with being 80% right.

Companies don't maximize fairness, they maximize profit – as they should.

If you want fairness, go run a non-profit.

------
bambax
"80% of success is showing up" \-- Woody Allen (maybe). Not the same thing
exactly, but a network helps you be at the right place at the right time.

------
therealdrag0
I've seen this recently in my job search. I reached out to 2 ex-coworkers who
are now leads/managers looking for work. Both offered my jobs without
hesitation, because they have seen me work and know what I'm worth.

However, going through traditional routes, I have something like 15+ no-
responses, 10 tech screen rejections, and 3 on-sites with 2 offers.

------
throwApr19
From my personal point of view networking is everything or at least 99%.

I want to share my experience with you since I hold the people in this forum
in high regard. Not paying attention to this "social" issues has deeply
affected my career and now I'm at a point where there are few opportunities
left for me (mainly due to age, mid 30s now). I _really_ need some help now as
I don't know how to turn my life around, this is very important for me as I
have a wife + daughter that expect me to be their primary provider. Any good
intended advice to improve on this will be greatly appreciated.

I prefer to be an introvert (but I am not shy) person and do not rapidly
establish strong relationships with the people around me. I am the kind of
person that has 3 or 4 friends at most, goes to work, does what it needs to do
without much fanfare and goes back home to sleep/read. I've been like this
since I was in high school. This was a personal choice back then, my reasoning
was: "study hard, work hard and the rest will come to you".

I come from a low-middle class family that made themselves from the ground, as
a result, work ethics are very deeply ingrained in my principles. I have never
failed to deliver what I promise on a school or work related environment. I do
not mean to offend anyone with this but I have to say it just to further
clarify my situation: I do not have any physical or mental disabilities, I
dress appropriately, I'm white (although not American/European) and I do not
behave in an awkward manner.

Not paying attention to networking while I was in school and at previous jobs
has severely limited my options for professional development. I almost never
get good job offers, promotions or even proper acknowledgement for the things
I do. They mostly go to people around me, some of whom severely lack what's
needed for the job, mainly due to their closeness to someone at HR, got tipped
off by some friend, ... you get the idea. As a result of this, despite having
done everything "good", my career really never took off. I'm stuck in the same
kind of developer job as I had 10 years ago. Now the walls are closing in
since people raise an eyebrow when they see my age, I cannot just go and hunt
for jobs as easily as I could five years ago. Right now, I'm at a terrible
company and I truly hate my current job () I don't want to go in detail as I'm
really not like that). I cannot just leave since I have bills to pay and also
because I'm scared of not finding anything else. I know almost no-one in the
industry and my few friends have different ways of life.

I would like to read some practical advice on how may I expand my reach to
(hopefully) find better job prospects. Among other things, I tried to join
some related meetups in my area, but honestly they are mostly made up of
people who take it as a hobby (not that there's anything wrong with that). I
truly don't know what else I could do.

~~~
fb03
Your question is really good and I hope you get some meaningful answers out of
it, I am just here to help you in another regard: timing.

This was posted 9 hours ago and your comment about 8h30 hours after its
initial 'interest boom'. Usually things die out in hacker news after a night
or so so you probably won't get many answers out of this.

My lateral advice to you is: keep your eye open for more of those "how did you
get out of your {mindless|boring|notwhatiwant} job" posts that usually appear
here every 2 months. These posts attract lots of people and are usually very
active for almost 2-3 days before people stop answering.

If you catch'em early certainly you are gonna get lots of answers.

Someone that may or may not be me might have found one of those posts someday
in HN and he was lucky to come up with a quick throwaway account and post
almost exactly the same content as yours and he got (quite a _lot_ of)
meaningful answers out of it from people from varied walks of life.

Good luck on your stuff, you are not alone in this "problem" you have.

Also, pat yourself on the back everyday for providing for your family and
keeping strong even tho you hate what you do on a daily basis. You are doing
good for your peers.

o/

------
Shaddox
Solid advice but I'm still trying to build my value ... so far I am worthless.

I think the networking aspect itself is also an aspect of being at the right
place at the right time. One can't ask others to pull strings unless you can
pull something yourself.

~~~
q-base
Step 0: Stop calling yourself worthless!

~~~
the_fonz
Corollary to Dunning-Kruger perhaps: the productive view themselves as
inadequate, leading to a number of insecurities, while the boorish liabilities
view themselves as masterful, omnipotent polyglots.

------
reubenswartz
This is all very true. As an introvert with a non-photographic memory for
faces, I don't always find it easy. But it's definitely easier and more
rewarding when you just look to connect and help people, trying to "pay in" to
the karma pool.

Also, it takes work to create and maintain relationships.

(I created a little web-based calculator to help you estimate your "Maximum
Social Network": [https://www.mimiran.com/the-maximum-social-
network/](https://www.mimiran.com/the-maximum-social-network/) It's a little
surprising how small a real network is, at least in the first degree.)

------
zzzcpan
Too much confirmation bias in the article. Of course if you like networking
you want to justify spending time on it. Realistically, though, it's better to
be known of by many people, than to meet just a few people in person on the
off chance this could help you. Given a choice people would rather choose who
they know of, than someone they don't. This is how marketing, advertising
works. Hence why the author himself is spending time writing articles and
tries to reach many people, not meeting them in person.

------
hartator
I don’t think networking matters that much. In the tech business at least.

Most of my business are in new niches where I knew no one. This is fine.
People are usually nice, open, and want to work with you if you can
demonstrate value. Relying on your network can throw in the wrong way as
people just don’t know the specific of whatever industry you are in. The
hardest thing is execution not befriending smart or influential people.

------
ds0
Sorry to go on a tangent, but that's John Lurie on the left in the second
photo by Andy Warhol. I'm surprised to see he brushed shoulders with Basquiat
and the rest.

------
leowoo91
It did in past, it doesn't mean it still works. Sometimes, networks can bring
more damage than help because of individual instabilities (e.g. snowflakes).
For all the reasons, it looks harder to have a healthy network as people used
to have 20 years ago, imho.

~~~
kodz4
You are right about damage it can do. But it also does good.

Newton/Maxwell/Faraday were part of very interesting networks. Their results
could have easily come out of Italy, France, India or China if better networks
existed there.

The better we understand networks, the better we get at building useful ones.
No one questions the amount of effort/resources/time that goes into
constructing a world class sports team. That is only possible with a right
network.

And in depth study of human networks is a new thing because historically where
was the data?

As we have got more interconnected, in more and more fields people are
increasing how much they focus on Networks.

Niall Ferguson's recent book The Square and The Tower, is all about when
networks succeed and when they fail using a whole bunch of key events from
History.

Thomas Malone's recent Superminds the same thing applied to businesses.

We are just getting started at how we apply this knowledge. Computational
Social/Political Science departments are springing up all over the place.

Just adding one connection or deleting one connection in a graph of people is
all it takes to create major change.

~~~
leowoo91
Thank you for the good stuff, I'll have a look.

