
A veteran teacher turned coach shadows two students for two days - MrMrtn
http://grantwiggins.wordpress.com/2014/10/10/a-veteran-teacher-turned-coach-shadows-2-students-for-2-days-a-sobering-lesson-learned/
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vvpan
I grew up and went to school in Russia, but spent my last three grades in the
US. Both have their pros and cons, but some cons of the US system were very
apparent.

1\. In Russia I remember having eight classes a day only briefly and that
quickly came to an end because having so many classes was considered to be
close to child abuse. Six was the norm, sometime seven, but definitely not
every day of the week. Here I had 9 classes every single day. I was not
pleased at all.

2\. The breaks between classes were only 3-5 minutes long in the US. Whereas
in Russia they were 10-15 minutes. You can't socialize during 3-5 minutes you
have to run to another class. Yes, you are less likely to "get in trouble",
but getting in trouble is part of socializing.

3\. Not really a problem with the schooling system, but the above two combined
with living in the suburbs produces a great problem. You know you won't see
any of the students for the rest of the day, unless your mom drives you to the
mall or something. Socializing time is very brief during the school day, but
really, that's all you've got...

Needless to say I hated going to the US school tremendously. Color me cynical,
but I am somewhat surprised that there are not many more school shooting than
there are now. Oh and I graduated more than a decade ago, so perhaps things
have changed, but I doubt it.

~~~
mschuster91
> Here I had 9 classes every single day. I was not pleased at all.

This is by far the worst thing in any school system... even in Germany, with 6
different subjects every day, it's hard because you shift your entire focus
every 45min. Until you're in the correct focus, it needs ten minutes - and
suddenly, a third of the lesson time is gone.

Best would be three or four 90-minute blocks to avoid the constant mind-
shifting, separated by 15-min (or at midday 30-45min) breaks in order to
relax, eat and socialize.

~~~
cdwhite
As a counterpoint, I have a hard time _keeping_ my focus for more than 45 min.
90-min classes, which I've been having for a good five years now, can be
killers.

This is even more true when I'm working on my own: it requires a substantial
amount of effort to make it through one 25 min. pomodoro period.

------
protonfish
Having been a teacher (for one miserable year) I have too much to say about
this. I'll try to make a few points and not rant.

There is a reason that classes are like this. In my experience it is because
if you try to have more participation in a large classroom it devolves quickly
into chaos. Which you you little angels remember making sport of the
substitute teacher? Putting 30 teenagers in a room with one adult and
expecting them to sit for an hour every day and "learn" is laughably insane.
Teachers that make it work do so by becoming wardens of their own little
compound. And this is after all effective tools for discipline have been taken
away from teachers and most parents and the slimy administrative politicians
siding against you. Maybe if you could beat a little psychopath once in a
while you would not have to put 99% of your classroom effort to shushing and
threatening and other emotionally abusive crowd control techniques.

Ever heard of Sudbury schools? These are schools were they don't make the kids
do anything. There are no classes, standards or curriculum. Testing shows no
significant academic difference with "normal" schools. Think about that: the
effect of modern education is indistinguishable from a placebo.

Education is fucked from the ground up. It's a stupid idea poorly executed. I
say let's just be honest and call school what it is: baby-sitting. At least
then we can stop being so cruel to our children and let them relax and enjoy
themselves.

Sorry, I failed to not rant.

~~~
valar_m
Two years ago, I spent eight weeks teaching high school students about the
legal system through a juvenile diversionary program called Street Law. One
would think that this would be prime time for what you described, what with me
being essentially a substitute teacher for a classroom of only students who
had all at some point been charged with a crime. It was not.

In fact, the exact opposite occurred. Students engaged in thoughtful
discussion on a wide range of complex issues on which reasonable minds
frequently disagree. We debated constitutional rights and justice reform. We
shared personal experiences with racism and bigotry. We searched for ideas to
stop it.

One or two times, I think I even saw someone consider changing their mind.

You probably think I am making this up. I am not. It happened, and I think it
happened because I didn't treat them like children. I spoke to them with
honesty. I asked them what they thought, and it took them by surprise. Perhaps
if we stopped treating them like small children, they will stop acting that
way.

 _let 's just be honest and call school what it is: baby-sitting_

Oh.

~~~
protonfish
Some of the best teaching being done today in public schools in the U.S. is in
what is commonly called "alternative education." These are special facilities
for "problem" students. The expectations are low. The politicians and parents
are overjoyed the students bothered to show up. It is very similar in
environment to Sudbury schools.

One of the many topics I didn't address in my mini-rant is how, when you stop
brutally regimenting education, real learning can occur. It's too bad we don't
allow students that haven't committed crimes this same opportunity.

------
Afton
The three points from the article:

> [1] Students sit all day, and sitting is exhausting.

> [2] High School students are sitting passively and listening during
> approximately 90% of their classes.

> [3] You feel a little bit like a nuisance all day long.

People wonder why high school aged students are unruly, unpleasant, and filled
with deep negative emotions (anger, disdain, need-to-rebel). I look at this
list (especially [2] and the lack of autonomy that follows) and the reason
seems really clear. The basic model seems broken.

~~~
smoyer
I'm on the board of a small private high-school and I'm going to forward this
to the headmaster but ...

Sitting all day [1] passively listening to a droning professor [2] and feeling
like a nuisance [3] if you don't grasp the material, pay attention and avoid
causing disruptions [3] is an important skill for college survival. If we
change the curriculum to engage the students more (which I tend to believe
will increase their retention of the materials), will we make them less
capable of successfully performing 1, 2 & 3 in their college classes?

~~~
vanderZwan
Why shouldn't college education be more engaging as well?

I'm teaching at the Interaction Design programme in Malmö, which is very much
centered around project based learning and because of that inherently avoids
the problems mentioned to a large degree. Although I admit that interaction
design lends itself better to such an approach than some other subjects.

~~~
smoyer
It should be!!! I believe people like you are the future of higher education -
project-based learning where the students can actually see how the skills
they're practicing might be used in the real world.

There are, unfortunately, too few of you but at least you're not alone. One of
my favorite classes involved solving a problem encountered at a real business.
It was free for the business - all they had to do was supply the problem. The
students submitted suggested solutions and the business was free to implement
the solution or (if they were being generous) tell the students why the
solution wasn't used (and if they could, what the chosen solution was).

------
Periodic
I'd like to step back from this from a moment and get a little more abstract
and ask if this idea of shadowing applies to software products (or any other
business, really).

Has anyone really sat down and shadowed one of their users for a whole day? I
know small usability studies are pretty common. You get someone in a room, ask
them to perform some tasks, see what they do. But if you have an app that
people are going to spend their whole day in, e.g. email, office suite,
productivity, does anyone really sit down and shadow a user for a day?

There might be things you don't notice if you only do it for an hour or two,
or is it just not the same when the user isn't required by an authority to be
present?

~~~
matwood
One of my first jobs was writing software for call centers. The agents did
things like CS, take payments, etc... I frequently went onto the calling floor
and sat with the agents to see how they worked. Their bonuses were in part
based on speed, so any software I wanted them to use had to not slow them
down. They also had to deal with multiple separate programs, so additional
software had to get out of the way when not being used.

It was a great first job, and I learned a lot about writing _usable_ software.

------
Mithaldu

      > In addition, there was a good deal of sarcasm and snark
      > directed at students
      > ...
      > I realize that sarcasm, impatience, and annoyance are a
      > way of creating a barrier between me and them.
    

From a european point of view that is something the entire us-american culture
embraces and grapples with vigorously, to the detriment of interactions among
themselves and with other cultures. It would make sense that this is started
and reinforced in school already.

~~~
moron4hire
I think we're very stand-offish people. We tend to not engage in conversation
with strangers. I think sarcasm is sort of a way to probe another person for
where you stand with them, given a functionally retarded mindset towards
personal interactions. You can say something, and if the person laughs, you
know they are net-positive towards you, and if they don't, you can apologize
and claim you were just being sarcastic.

~~~
learc83
>I think we're very stand-offish people. We tend to not engage in conversation
with strangers.

I have never heard that from anyone. What culture are you comparing the US to?
I've heard the exact opposite from nearly every non-American I've ever
discussed this with. If anything they think Americans are _too_
friendly/chatty.

~~~
moron4hire
Come to DC sometime.

------
beerbajay
Many American adults seem to forget just how abusive and degrading the entire
school system is, especially during high school. The people who are attending
high school are not really "children" in the sense of not having an informed
worldview and autonomous identity and desires; they have informed preferences,
can do risk assessment, and cost-benefit analysis.

But these same people are forced to attend school the entire day, every day,
where they are met with mostly indifference from teachers and bullying by
peers. The system allows you little choice of subjects, no choice of
classmates, and often no possibility of taking easier/harder versions of the
classes. In college, you can choose to not attend a lecture; not in high
school. In college, you can choose your courses (mostly); not in high school.

"Babysitting" is a nice word for it, but for me, it felt like a prison and I
would not wish it on anyone.

------
keeptrying
Whats really amazing is that this experiment would have been a first of its
kind in nearly 100s of years.

I personally think that our class based education systems are languishing at
some 100 year based minima right now w.r.t effectiveness.

Present systems don't take into account: 1\. Most subjects require different
modalities of learning. Teaching computer science via lecture format?
seriously?

2\. Students have different economic situations which usually means real
demands on their time and attention. The system HAS TO cater to this to be
more effective.

3\. As the environment changes the teaching methodology has to change. Right
now phones and tablets really inhibit concentration. So something to counter
this would be effective for all other classes.

4\. Schools primary function is a safe place to keep your kids. Their
inability to accept this makes them stuff the day with classes.

~~~
copperx
> Teaching computer science via lecture format? seriously?

I agree that hands-on learning in programming classes would be much better,
but computer science in general? I don't think so.

------
gizmo686
Regarding #1

>Students sit all day, and sitting is exhausting.

Doing any unfamiliar job all day is exhausting. There are plenty of other
professions where sitting all day is the norm (like programming). Of course,
most have the option of taking a stretch when they want to, but the only time
I have seen people do this on a regular basis was for medical reasons.

In high school, I had an administrator (the dean of students) enroll in one of
my classes for a year.

~~~
joshdance
Just because everyone sits all day doesn't mean everyone should. And working
at a software company, I get up to stretch all the time because I just can't
concentrate anymore. School kids do not have this option most of the time.

