
Suing California for Throwing Out 45k Ballots Over Handwriting 'Mismatches' - nkurz
https://www.aclu.org/blog/voting-rights/fighting-voter-suppression/were-suing-california-because-it-threw-out-more-45000
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kalleboo
As handwriting and cursive skills decline, how useful are signatures going to
be? I know no two of my signatures ever look the same.

In Japan instead of signatures they use personal stamps. Stamps used for your
government business or banking get registered, and they can match stamps from
the slight imperfections. If your stamp is stolen you register it as such so
they know not to accept it.

A lot of expats here complain about the stamp system, but when they get their
bank to use their signature instead, they complain that the bank actually
verifies the signature, and I've heard stories of people refilling out the
same form 3 times just to get their signature to match the one on file!

~~~
ekianjo
> A lot of expats here complain about the stamp system, but when they get
> their bank to use their signature instead, they complain that the bank
> actually verifies the signature, and I've heard stories of people refilling
> out the same form 3 times just to get their signature to match the one on
> file!

This happened to me several times. That's because they use a machine to verify
differences in signatures and as long as the machines do not OK the operation
you have to retry. It's retarded, because that verification is made for stamps
and not signatures and therefore it probably is not trained properly for the
subtles differences in signatures from one to the next.

And the stamp system in Japan is retarded anyway, because it's super easy to
reproduce one's stamp if you have a paper with that imprint lying around. It's
not like the stamp is precise at the nanometer level or something.

> how useful are signatures going to be?

I dont even know why we need signatures honestly - at the bank you should be
able to present your national ID or passport and that should be sufficient.
And nobody writes checks anymore anyway.

~~~
slapshot
>It's retarded >is retarded

It's 2017. This type of ableist language should not be socially acceptable
anymore, anymore than calling something the n-word as an adjective. Differing
abilities should not be an insult.

~~~
OtterCoder
It's 2017, you should be mature enough to shrug off language like this, and
distinguish between slang and formal meaning. Differing ability always becomes
an insult, and if you knew anything about the march of language, you'd know
that this is a treadmill you cannot catch up with.

It's not language I use or agree with, but my opinion isn't going to change
something that turns out to be fundamental to how people communicate. You need
to learn how to live and let live.

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kirillzubovsky
Glad they are doing this. Had my vote returned to me in Washington for the
same dumb signature mismatch reason. Lucky enough it was in due time for me to
update the signature and re-submit (I think). It's 2017 and our elections are
still done using a paper signature matched by a human eye. Kind of mind-
blowing how archaic it is, isn't it?

~~~
alphaalpha101
Signature mismatch? You have to sign your ballot? Doesn't that identify that
it was your ballot?

It's been a couple of years since I last voted in NZ (election in 3 weeks, and
it's every 3 years) but I definitely don't think you're allowed to put any
identifying mark on your ballot here..

~~~
bskap
Washington does all vote-by-mail (except for people who need assistance or who
don't have a permanent address). For the vast majority of voters, you get a
ballot, a big fat book with statements from all of the candidates, and your
return envelope in the mail a few weeks before the election.

After you fill out your ballot (with no identifying marks), you slip it into
an inner envelope (with no identifying marks) and put that in the outer
envelope (which includes your name and you have to sign).

When a ballot is received, elections officials check the signature on the
outer envelope. If the signature matches, the inner envelope containing the
ballot is removed from the outer envelope and dumped into a pile so no one can
match the submitted ballot with the original envelope, and then the whole pile
is taken in to be counted. There's an observation deck in the facility and
cameras running the entire time the elections officials are counting ballots
to make sure no one is cheating and checking who voted for who.

~~~
skybrian
We don't have inner envelopes on mail-in ballots in California, though.

~~~
donarb
The inner envelope is essentially a safety mechanism to ensure that the person
who might have read the name on the outer envelope does not accidentally see
one of the voter's choices on the ballot.

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kartD
Question for someone who knows... Is the ACLU primarily an inbound or outbound
organization?

I mean there must be multiple transgressions occurring all the time, so it
must be very difficult to keep track of everything yourself, but at the same
time being inbound will mean you only hear from the "loudest" voices. So how
do they strike a balance?

~~~
i_dont_know_
I've always been under the impression that you have to 'invoke' them, meaning
you have to know they exist and the kind of circumstances and cases they cater
to, but I'd be very interested to know if they are proactive and try to
represent people that might not realize they need them.

~~~
KGIII
Both. If there is publicity, and they notice, and it is in their domain, and
they have the budget, etc. they will reach out to you. At the same time, you
can reach out to them and they may be able to offer some assistance.

They lack funding and personnel to act on everything. I'm not a lawyer but
I've donated both time and money.

Note: Not all donations to them are tax deductible.

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CodeWriter23
So now I understand why my wife and 4 other people I know had their
registration type changed from in-person to mail-in without their request or
knowledge.

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Tyrannosaur
Wait- handwriting is actually used for something? IIRC, handwriting analysis
is not allowed in US courts of law because of its supposed inaccuracies. Why
are we using it for any other legal uses?

I mean, using a signature as a legal, "I was there and I approved this
document" is all fine and dandy, but for authentication? There are much better
methods

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cdevs
We need some form of bitcoin movement for identity it's such a broken system.
No one trust voting electronically for fear of hacking but small valunteer run
events aren't much safer.

~~~
eli
I'm not convinced mail-in ballots need strong identity verification in the
first place.

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boneheadmed
This is a great smoke screen for the ACLU to blow. While the real problem of
MASSIVE illegal alien voter fraud continues in California. How does a state go
from voting for proposition 187 to halt illegal immigration and having a
conservative governor like Pete Wilson to the far leftist government presently
in place? Massive voter fraud is the answer. I'm so glad the Trump
administration is investigating :)

~~~
sweep4r
I am not American so I don't understand this so please somebody explain. Is
this guy being downvoted because it's thought to be racist to complain about
illegals voting without them being citizens, or is this guy being downvoted
because this fraud is thought to not happen?

~~~
kevinh
He's being downvoted because voter fraud, if on the scale that Trump believes
it is (millions of people), would be readily visible and provable.

Instead it's a mechanism for enabling voter ID laws, which prevent
demographics that trend Democrat from voting.

~~~
sweep4r
How do voter ID laws prevent democrats from voting? We have to be fully
identified in Europe to vote and parties from the left win elections just
fine.

~~~
schwabacher
ID laws are most likely to exclude young, black, low income and (legal)
immigrant voters who are less likely to have drivers licenses than others and
are more likely to vote for democrats. (here is one study
[https://apnews.com/1dba56c5f8f7430f859748aff4405b10/study-
vo...](https://apnews.com/1dba56c5f8f7430f859748aff4405b10/study-voter-id-
laws-cut-turnout-blacks-young))

Some of the laws are explicitly designed to favor demographics that skew
conservative and exclude others - for example Texas accepts gun licenses as
valid IDs but excludes student IDs.

~~~
rdtsc
Is it possible to have national ID laws and not let states like Texas mess
with those.

Maybe that's not what you meant it seems a bit racist assuming that young
black youth who want to vote are too incompetent to get an ID. But presumably
poor white or asian ones are smarter and more resourceful. Having lived in
poor neighborhoods with various races I'd say that not true based on my
experience.

~~~
Pulcinella
You're the one bringing up incompetence. It's hard to get a driver's license
or state ID when you have no car, work a full time job or two, the legislature
closed your "local" DMV and the closest one is an hour away by bus.

~~~
rdtsc
I was trying to figure out what OP meant by the fact that black young won't be
able to get IDs to vote. So presumption of incompetence was a guess there.

