
There is no place for just shitting all over other people's work - phsr
http://37signals.com/svn/posts/2732-there-is-no-place-for-just-shitting-all-over-other-peoples-work
======
danilocampos
37signals is at their worst when they adopt this sanctimonious attitude. Say
what you want about their juvenile tone, the criticisms on RTFHIG are mostly
valid.

What are we going to do next? Pillory literary, film and food critics because
their insights are inconvenient to the sensitive feelings of creators in those
realms? Come on.

Creating things for other people has a long, rich history of criticism. Some
valid, some bullshit, but all essential to the advancement of whatever
creative field is under scrutiny. The shovelware artists who RTFHIG pick on
might find a genuine direction for improving their work. Meanwhile, we're all
talking about what genuinely makes a good interface.

That these guys are provocative makes their insights more valuable, since they
get more attention. If you don't have or can't grow a thick skin, you don't
belong in a creative field. It's as simple as that.

~~~
msbarnett
We _do_ pillory film, literary and food critics who are caught basing their
review on a publicity still of the work in question.

It is not unreasonable to expect a critic to watch/read/eat/use the
film/book/food/UI in question before calling its creator a "fucking hack".

~~~
bradleyland
I need not take a bit of a cow pie to tell you that it will taste like shit. I
can tell from where I'm sitting.

~~~
alexgartrell
It's a cute metaphor, but what would you think of eating a lobster from
looking at one?

If you're going to be the authority on the taste of cow shit (shit tastes like
shit is, of course, a tautology), you better eat some cow shit.

~~~
danilocampos
You don't need to use an application to know that a close button _that is
sixty pixels large, with an appearance that's completely inconsistent with the
rest of the application, along with the operating system at large, and is
positioned in the wrong place_... is poor design.

[http://readthefuckinghig.tumblr.com/post/2651530636/when-
you...](http://readthefuckinghig.tumblr.com/post/2651530636/when-you-think-
this-blog-makes-you-pessimistic)

Half of using a visual interface is visual. You can tell a lot about the
quality of a GUI-based application by the level of effort that went into
making it _look correct_.

~~~
derefr
Or, to ground this in actual HCI terms: from a screenshot alone, you should be
able to see the _affordances_ of a design. If you _need_ more than the
screenshot to find your way around the app, the app is badly designed in other
ways (mystery-meat navigation.) Thus, it is actually the Principle of Charity
that would have us evaluate the app by a screenshot.

------
jsdalton
I agree that just shitting all over people's work is, well, shitty. But I
disagree entirely that the anonymous critic behind Read the Fucking HIG
(<http://readthefuckinghig.tumblr.com/>) is out of line or that this kind of
criticism is lacking in merit.

Firstly, it's clearly a bit tongue in cheek: "The evil doctor cackled as the
thunder struck his lightning rod, giving life and sentience to his unholy
creation, spliced together from iphone, ipad and mac ui." And the vulgarity is
right in line with other satirical, single purpose sites like
<http://www.whatthefuckshouldimakefordinner.com/> and others I can't think of
right now.

Secondly, he's got a "legitimate" complaint. You don't have to agree with his
point, but I think a lot of people who are passionate about design (and about
design in the context of their Mac) really, really do experience visceral rage
at the way Apple flouts the HIG. A site like this is really just capturing
that zeitgeist and reflecting how heated people actually feel about the topic.

Anyhow, I really am a big proponent for civility in discourse (that's why I'm
always reading HN), but everything has its place.

~~~
jzimdars
He may be right. But he's not adding any value for anyone the way he points it
out. I think the biggest problem I have with it is that he's insulting and
attacking the people who made these apps. There is no reason for that.

~~~
roc
> _"But he's not adding any value for anyone the way he points it out."_

It's a curious community we have. Pointing out problems or reporting visceral
reaction is considered not constructive. Yet speculative re-designs to
illustrate what the critic might have done differently are _also_ considered
not constructive.

It seems to me that when nothing short of actually _competing_ against a
product is considered useful or valid, the real argument is that criticism
shouldn't exist and isn't useful in and of itself.

~~~
rick_2047
If you think about it carefully the emphasis here is not on if he should
complain or not, the emphasis is on the way he should complain.

~~~
blasdel
So the people complaining about complaints over UI being about style instead
of substance are themselves complaining about argumentative style instead of
substance.

~~~
rick_2047
You still do not get the point here. His arguments may be valid, I don't know
I never read the HIG nor am I a designer. But there is a way to do
constructive criticism without belittling the efforts of other developers. He
is acting like a "Chinese mom".

This line from HN guidelines illustrate my point:

 _When disagreeing, please reply to the argument instead of calling names.
E.g. "That is an idiotic thing to say; 1 + 1 is 2, not 3" can be shortened to
"1 + 1 is 2, not 3."_

I know that showing "attitude" and being cool is all the rage these days, but
I still thinking politeness works like a charm.

~~~
roc
But even 'constructive' criticism is frequently derided here. That's why I
made the point about speculative redesigns. No matter how polite or
constructive you try to get, it seems a large chunk of this site will wave it
off as being only as useful as reporting your gut feeling on whether something
'works' or 'doesn't'. (As only the designer facing actual decisions knows why
they made certain compromises and has to deal with all the real permutations,
etc)

You can narrow your argument to just "can't we all just be polite" and have a
nice, if naive, point. But I disagree that the core complaints in the article
or this thread are restricted to, or even primarily about, the tone.

------
gyardley
'Read the Fucking HIG' (and 'Perversion Tracker', two years ago -
<http://www.perversiontracker.com>) is interesting not so much for the content
of the criticism, but because it's a reaction to the massive influx of new
developers into a development community with its own distinct subculture.

Mac developers for the longest time engaged in 'artisanal software production'
(for lack of a better term) with high production values - and while a few did
well, many of them were just scraping by, doing it largely out of love for the
platform. Then iOS came out, everybody learned Objective-C, money began to
flow freely, and like homeowners in a town that's suddenly become touristy,
they found themselves economically better off but a little ill-at-ease with
the new character of their neighborhood.

Because of this, I'm more inclined to give this guy a bit of slack. The
criticism isn't personal - it's just one person's way of mourning a world that
no longer exists.

~~~
kentosi
You've posted perhaps one of the better definitions of this guy's attitude,
and I have to agree.

However, while he's criticising UI design flaws, he doesn't actually provide
any real ideas/examples on how they should fix this. This might just be
because he can't afford the time to do so. Ironically, this is probably also
the main reason why all these bad designs exist.

------
rgbrgb
Although the tone is perhaps a bit mean-spirited (kind of funny), I have to
say that I agree with most of the points readthefuckinghig makes.

Critique is important, not immature. Despite the fact that the blogger in
question comes off as a real asshole, he makes real observations about
specific details which wouldn't have been so ugly if the designer had just
read the ____human interface guidelines.

If something sucks, I think it's better for someone to say it sucks
anonymously than for nobody to say anything - especially if they're citing
details that can be fixed!

------
jakeg
“Where the heck were you when the page was blank?” - Paul Butterworth

Always such a bogus argument. This is what people say when they don't like
your opinion but have no argument to counter, so they resort to a rhetorical
that implies you have no authority on the issue. But the fact is you do not
need to be a creator to criticize a creation legitimately. Sometimes
specializing in just observation/criticism and _not_ creation allows you more
time to think things over from the standpoint of analysis, whereas creation
demands that a large portion of your mental energy goes to the creation
process.

I can't speak to the blog in question but there's nothing fundamentally wrong
with the idea of a blog just for the sake of criticism. How it goes about that
criticism and any unnecessary hostility is another issue.

~~~
jasonlotito
> . How it goes about that criticism and any unnecessary hostility is another
> issue.

No, that's the issue. Dismissing that invalidates your entire comment.

~~~
jakeg
I was responding to the bottom half of the article which makes the argument I
referenced separately.

~~~
jasonlotito
Then if you were, your second paragraph doesn't make any sense at all, and
frankly, is pointless.

------
iuguy
Is it me or is RTFHIG actually generating discussion, adding value and
generally making sense? What is it that 37signals are doing in this post
again?

Oh, I'm sorry, trying to engage in a urinal measurement comparison.

There seems to be a thing amongst blogs and indeed writers. They reach a
certian level in which they comment on things that affect them, then they
comment on things that don't affect them, then they seem to adopt a particular
stance that seems controversial to us, but not to them, because thus far we
have celebrated them - they have become _celebrities_. I've seen this with
Guber, I've seen this with 37 signals. Perhaps one day this will happen to me
(hopefully I'll never become important enough). From that point on the shark
is never far away from jumping.

I don't think 37 signals jumped the shark here, but I do think they went too
far. They're right, there is no place for just shitting all over other
people's work. Shame they forgot their perspective on who was doing the
shitting.

------
wccrawford
Criticism is good for a creator. If you can't turn criticism into a force to
improve your product, you're doing it wrong. (Granted, baseless criticism
doesn't count.)

And if they're violating Apple's HIG... Seriously, why? That should be the
easiest thing to get right. They've outlined it for you.

~~~
jasonlotito
Apple's HIG isn't the end of UI design though. Even Apple refuses to blindly
follow it.

It's a guideline. Not hard and fast rules that must be followed in all cases.

~~~
chc
There's a truism in many fields, "You have to learn the rules before you can
break them." It means that rules are not the end-all-be-all, but they exist
for a reason, and breaking them is _generally_ bad unless you have a very good
reason.

When you're just copying an iOS interface to the Mac, to use an example from
that site, that isn't intelligently deciding that you can do one better than
the HIG. That's just pointlessly making the app less intuitive.

------
gaius
I dunno, I worked with one designer who firmly believed that "users like a
challenge". He loved little tricks like "hiding" clickable things by making
them blend in with decorative elements, he liked unusual fonts, he liked
layouts that forced the users to hunt all over the screen for the next thing
they wanted.

But we weren't making games, we were making corporate Intranets. So my advice
is, ignore your designer and try _using_ something he's designed. If it's easy
and intuitive, he's a good designer. If it's not, put him on the silly little
scooter he'll invariably have and push him gently out of the door...
Especially if he tries to tell you "you don't understand _design_ , maaan"!

~~~
blasdel
He must have attended the _Kai Power Tools_ School of Design

------
achompas
This has to be an age thing. When I was 10 I shitted (shat?) all over people's
work. Now that I'm 25 I have nothing but respect for people who produce.

~~~
axod
idk there's nothing more irritating as a creator to be told "oh that's nice".
I'd rather everyone tells me it's utter shit than tells me niceties.

~~~
achompas
This isn't a black-or-white issue. I can politely criticize your work, or you
can crap on my work constructively.

------
molecule
There are many places, and one is right here:

[http://37signals.com/svn/posts/1351-1-who-the-fuck-
designs-t...](http://37signals.com/svn/posts/1351-1-who-the-fuck-designs-this-
shit-and-2)

~~~
statictype
Ouch.

But now I wonder, do individual blog posts in SvN reflect the overall opinion
of 37signals or just the person who wrote the post? Keep in mind that the
author of this post and the submitted one we're discussing now are different.

------
frankc
I see this a number of posts here arguing for/agaist this with an unsaid
dichotomy where the choices are

1) don't critisize, create instead 2) Criticism is good, even if is kind of
mean.

But I think this a false dichotomy. Words and tone do matter. If you put the
object of your criticism in a defensive position, you are unlikely to effect
any change at all. This is not some new insight; it's been well understood at
the very least since Dale Carnegie. You might acheive the goal of making
yourself feel good, but then that certainly isn't worthy of any external
respect.

What's the difference between: 1) You app is ugly and it fucking sucks. If you
used abc to do xyz, at least I wouldn't be vomitting.

and

2)Nice effort on your app. You might consider using abc to do xyz. It might
improve the aesthetics and usability some.

Some might say it says effectively the same thing, but the there is a world of
difference in the way the reader reacts to those statements.

------
runjake
1.) The referenced is taking a somewhat tongue-in-cheek approach to advocating
the Apple HIG.

2.) I find 37s posting something like this humorous. DHH "shits all over"
other people's work all the time.

In summary, lighten up.

------
jonhendry
Eh, it's like Regretsy, the site that makes fun of atrocious items placed for
sale on Etsy. Even Regretsy has wound up boosting sales of the mocked items.
They've also harnessed their traffic for good with occasional charity appeals,
and helped a little boy with cancer raise $100,000 or so to pay for his
treatment.

------
dev_jim
Mac users care very much about design and aesthetics. I would turn this
around: These developers are shitting on the platform. And sure, I will just
not download that app, but these developers should be ashamed for realeasing
something so ugly. Do they have no pride in their work?

------
hvs
I agree, and will also point out that the referenced site
(<http://readthefuckinghig.tumblr.com/>) is terrible, IMO. Does the holier-
than-thou author not know how to use the fucking shift key?

------
liamk
It's easier to critique than to create. For what it's worth, there are many
more critics online, which ultimately intensifies the problem.

~~~
steveklabnik
"when you don't create things, you become defined by your tastes rather than
ability. your tastes only narrow & exclude people. so create." - _why

~~~
rgbrgb
"when you don't critique you just make shit" - me

~~~
steveklabnik
It's true, even in the act of creation, there has to be some selection. With
that said, if you spend all of your time critiquing, you never end up building
anything.

It's all in the balance...

There's also a difference between "I'm working on critique to improve my
craft" and "I make a blog specifically designed to talk shit on people." You
can critique in a few ways, some more abrasive than others.

------
twir
I think it's the principle of the thing. Criticism works when done right, that
is when it's _traditional criticism_ like we all learned in art class. "Your
shading is inconsistent here, and the use of lilac is cliche."

Contrasting, this blog 37signals is going on about just smacks of the
zeitgeist that is modern "criticism":

Nowadays, criticism is rarely substantiated. Instead, folk spout out
inflammatory nonsense like "it's a flaming load of dog crap" rather than the
much more helpful "a combo box was a bad choice here."

To the critics: make it _constructively_ funny. If you're just going to
badmouth me then put up or shut up you non-contributing zero.

------
jdietrich
I'm going to have to disagree. Apple make it _incredibly_ easy to make apps
which fit with the look, feel and experience of the rest of OS X. The Human
Interface Guidelines are clear and specific on how to do most things. Cocoa's
APIs and the Interface Builder make it far easier to follow the conventions
than to reinvent the wheel. There is absolutely a right way and a wrong way to
implement most UI features in Mac software. The criticisms in RTFHIG aren't
simply that the apps featured are ugly, but that they do things that Apple
explicitly states that you shouldn't do in a Mac app. Doing it the right way
requires nothing more than the willingness to read and follow the explicit
instructions given in the HIGs. I have absolutely no respect for anyone who
has so little respect for software.

Writing software is unquestionably difficult, there is a great deal to learn
and most developers have a long adolescence before they start writing really
good software. It's also true however that the proliferation of bad software
has serious negative externalities on the developer community. It feels
absolutely terrible to submit a lovingly-crafted piece of software to an app
store only to see it swamped by thoughtless, careless crapware. We would be
foolish to ignore the importance of signal-to-noise and the ability of noise
to render a communications channel useless. For people who make their living
through the app store, this is absolutely a matter of survival.

------
bane
I think what rubs me the wrong way about this site is not the criticism.
Criticism is ok. It's lack of proposed solutions.

One thing I really enjoy is when designers take a look at some established
interface and try and design a better one and put it out there for comments
and ideas. _That_ is constructive criticism in my book.

example:<http://www.flickr.com/photos/zachklein/4831151379/>

~~~
lovskogen
I think the proposed solution to all entries would be "Do it with the HIG in
mind".

~~~
bane
Yes, I think I get that, but if everything was done to HIG all apps would look
the same (much like all writing conforming to Formal English reads the same).
I think what I'm asking is this, what can they do to conform to good GUI
guidelines (HIG compliance doesn't necessarily answer _that_ mail) and still
maintain a unique looking interface?

Also, in many cases, the developer may not know what's wrong with their
interface or why it doesn't comply with HIG.

Non-constructive criticism like this (while funny on some level) isn't exactly
pushing humanity forward, it's just bitching.

~~~
lovskogen
These apps are so far from the HIG that pushing this out would make the
creators read the HIG, hopefully sucking in some of it.

------
Tycho
I don't know if I trust any authority on the Internet when it comes to judging
interface design. Even some esteemed bloggers/authors in the web-design field,
I've found their personal home pages to be a bit dull. See also: the apparent
outcry over the Mac App Store interface. When I finally used the thing myself,
I was highly impressed and I suspect the non-geek portion of the population
have no problem with it whatsoever.

------
dools
There are a few things I'd like to throw in here: 1 is that I didn't even know
what the fucking HIG was so I had to look it up and, hell, thanks to that
website, if I ever choose to put an App on the Apple App store (highly
unlikely), I will probably look up the HIG, and read it. Thankyou.

Secondly this post by 37 signals is inspired by RTFH but the headline is
"There is no place for just shitting all over other people's work" - and
that's a true statement.

This is something that is particularly rife in amongst programmers: they point
at each other and say "what? you don't use X and do X? then you are a shit
programmer". Life is about getting things done and getting things done
necessitates compromise.

You should see how shit the videos I just made for my product are. They're
totally shit, but it's the best I could do and I wanted to put something up
there. I didn't have the money to pay a professional or the time to learn to
do it better - there you go. Whilst I was doing it my own internal monologue
kept saying "This looks like the investor pitch video for Prestige Worldwide"
(if you don't get that reference, it's from the film "Step Brothers").

If someone posted my videos on a website called
"makeyourfuckingvideosgood.tumblr.com" I wouldn't necessarily be offended
because it would generate traffic to my site and I know my limitations and
have no sense of pride in what I've created, but that doesn't make it right
for someone to wantonly create zero value assertions about the quality of
others' work (let me say, though, that I would say that humour adds value so
Maddox's "I am better than your kids" is exempt).

Now lastly, I find it somewhat ironic that 37signals have posted all this
shitting on the person's work who writes RTFH. Perhaps they could have
included some constructive criticism on how to improve their writing, or
posted alternative examples of satire they enjoy more.

Perhaps the most appropriate response would have been to create
readsomefuckingsatire.tumblr.com and put that site on it.

As professionals we should all be continually learning and improving, and we
should never disparage someone who has not learned or improved as much as us
in a given field because, as the OP points out:

 _they're making something and that's awesome._

That's the key point I took out of this post, and it's an attitude I'm going
to work harder to cultivate in my own life.

------
raganwald
Don’t try to win over haters. You’re not the Jackass Whisperer. --Scott
Stratten

~~~
nhangen
Says the same guy who's frequently quoted as saying "you're doing it wrong!"

~~~
raganwald
Which guy is frequently quoted as saying that? I'm bewildered.

Also, is that an _Ad Hominem_? If the quoted line is incorrect, it should be
possible to refute it directly without discussing the speaker's credentials or
other sayings.

~~~
blasdel
[http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=%22Scott+Stratten%2...](http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=%22Scott+Stratten%22+%22doing+it+wrong%22)

The speaker's statement hinges on not being the kind of person that uses those
other sayings. I suppose he could take the position that he himself is a
professional "Jackass Whisperer" and that you should not aspire to become the
same, though that puts the listener in the awkward position of being the
aforementioned jackass.

~~~
raganwald
Heh! I wrote out four paragraphs responding to your comment, but then I
realized that since I like the saying so much, I ought to take its advice.
Carry on without me.

------
davidedicillo
I'm actually surprise by how many people are defending the author of RTFHIG.
As a designer I can tell you can most of the users of HN could end up on a
site like that with their app (web or native). Those people that he's picking
on could be developers who build those app for the love of programming and
make some extra cash, and they may genuinely thinking those are good UIs.

~~~
huertanix
Good. This is why I hate asking my nice friends what they think of my web app
design. They always say it looks good. I want to raise the bar to epic, and
the only way to do that is to stop asking for preschool-era "everybody wins"
criticism and start asking for Chef Ramsey servings of brutally honest
opinion.

------
redstripe
A little off topic, but I had no idea there were so many bad apple apps. Some
of it looks like the crap that comes on my motherboard driver CD.

If anything, this is a sign of the mainstreaming of apple. No longer is it an
exclusive refuge of self styled artists... the barbarians are at the gates.
This probably wasn't how things were supposed to turn out.

------
rlmw
It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man
stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit
belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust
and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again
and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who
does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great
devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the
end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at
least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those
cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat.

<http://www.theodore-roosevelt.com/trsorbonnespeech.html>

------
mixmax
I generally only listen to criticism from people that have accomplished
something similar to what they are criticising themselves.

There are so many negative people out there, and it's a good way to sort the
wheat from the chaff. People who have been there themselves tend to only
complain if there's a valid reason for doing so.

------
rmorrison
"It is not the critic who counts: not the man who points out how the strong
man stumbles or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit
belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust
and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly, who errs and comes up short again
and again, because there is no effort without error or shortcoming, but who
knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, who spends himself for a
worthy cause; who, at the best, knows, in the end, the triumph of high
achievement, and who, at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while
daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid
souls who knew neither victory nor defeat." - Theodore Roosevelt, April 23,
1910

------
civilian
>> Looking at the end product it’s impossible to know the journey that the
designer took, to appreciate what went into it. You don’t know about the
constraints, the compromises, or external forces that shaped the design before
you. Certainly the end user is not going to be privy to those details either,
but as a designer critquing the work of another designer you should know there
is more to it.

I would really like it if designers would be more open with their constraints.
If the customers understand the constraints, then we can give better feedback
about how to make a better product.

------
jarin
While I agree with the sentiment, I think sites like Read the Fucking HIG
serve a good purpose: they keep UI designers from getting lazy. Nobody wants
to come up with a design that ends up on a site like that.

------
tedroden
It appears that they just took my post from last week and added 500 words:
<http://ted-is-a-nerd.tumblr.com/post/2631616173/>

------
BlazingFrog
As a basketball player, I'd gladly take any (any, really) critique from Kobe.
I won't take any (any, really) shit from Joe Blow. Prove to me you can do
better than me. Then, we'll talk.

~~~
Psyonic
What about Phil Jackson? You're probably better at basketball than he is.

~~~
brown9-2
You sure about that? He was a decent NBA player in the 70s and was on the NBA
All-Rookie First Team (1968) along with two championship teams.

------
reason
I just read through 10 or so posts on that blog, and nothing seems terribly
out of line... His criticisms were for the most part legitimate. That's just
his style, and, while I don't prefer that and think it's quite immature, I've
got to say, I did agree with most of the things he pointed out.

Amusing how you're calling for respect of other's work when you've shown to
not give a shit yourselves and put an end to the work of a competing service
that many seemed to enjoy temporarily -- HuddleChat.

------
dedward
I've always found the mac software space to automatically weed out bad UI. The
userbase is used to certain behaviours (as generally described in the UI
guidelines from apple)- and apps that don't follow that tend to not gain much
traction.

Sure, the app store will expose a bunch of crappy apps from people who don't
read the guide - but the market should weed them out in a hurry - those who
develop according to what the market expects will succeed over those who write
junk.

------
gregpilling
Did anyone else notice that the Apple Human Interface Guide is hard to read on
a widescreen monitor? I clicked on the link and the text was a good 18" wide.
You would think they would know about making a website readable.

[http://developer.apple.com/library/mac/#documentation/UserEx...](http://developer.apple.com/library/mac/#documentation/UserExperience/Conceptual/AppleHIGuidelines/XHIGIntro/XHIGIntro.html)

------
haecib
37signals really missed the point.

Are they seriously calling them out for not offering more constructive
criticism? Um...that's not why that site exists...

On a side note, there is nothing stopping 37signals from creating a webspace
dedicated to constructively critiquing Mac App design for the benefit of the
community in a more thorough and serious manner. But somehow, like the
creators of the site, I doubt 37signals is interested in doing so. :|

------
brm
From the comments there... DHH shitting on the app store
<http://bigthink.com/ideas/21603>

------
timruffles
Criticism isn't often worth anything, just demonstrating a sterile person
trying to find other things to do than make. Until we see some world class
design from the anon behind FTFHIG, their opinion is worth 0.

Alexander Pope's Essay on Criticism -

'Let such teach others who themselves excel, And censure freely who have
written well; Authors are partial to their wit, 'tis true, But are not Critics
to their judgment too?'

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jessevondoom
I think it's an important point that constructive criticism has a positive
intent and it's rarely mean-spirited. Might be hard to hear, but the critic
isn't just being an asshole.

(Did have an art-school teacher who used mean similes to teach, but that was
the rare exception. And he had a consistent flair for mean, so it was sort of
an odd joy to behold.)

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stephth
Yes! And praising the stuff you love is so much more constructive than flaming
the stuff you hate. Hurray to the lovers!

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othello
The irony being of course that the critics themselves should start by reading
a f __*ing English grammar book and learn to capitalize the beginning of their
sentences.

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d_r
Funny enough, if 37signals have never written this post criticizing RTFHIG, I
would have never heard of RTFHIG. Kudos to 37signals.

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JoeAltmaier
Precious fusspot

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emilepetrone
Amen

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sabat
I rarely enjoy 37 Signals posts, but I heartily agree with Jason Z. (new
guy?). There's so much negativism on the net in general; everyone seems
threatened by everyone else. And you find it here, too, a place where you'd
expect to find nothing but support and encouragement. (To be fair: HN is full
of supportive people; there's just more negativity than you'd expect. I'm
probably guilty of that, too, although I'm making a concerted effort to do
otherwise.)

All criticism is not constructive criticism. If someone's trying, they ought
to be encouraged to keep trying. That may sound naive and pollyanna, but ask
yourself: when was the latest time a hater changed the world for the better?

~~~
axod
FWIW, I think parents/friends give blind support and encouragment.
HN/peers/tech community should give complete honesty. If that means saying
"That idea is terrible" so be it.

~~~
alex_c
I agree, but there's a big difference between honest, polite feedback and
negativity, meanness, or just good old-fashioned flaming.

HN is pretty good in this respect. Reddit is still decent, though it can
definitely lean towards mean. YouTube / app store reviews... forget any chance
of respect.

~~~
lovskogen
Since the net is so wast, people feel they have to shout loud with profanity
to get heard. Alot of times they are right.

~~~
alex_c
There's also this:

<http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2004/03/19/>

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tedjdziuba
Of course there is. It's called trolling, and it gets attention. For example,
the modern news media is built on trolling, as is most of 37signals's fame.

