
What is it like to be poor at an Ivy League school? (2015) - iamjeff
https://www.bostonglobe.com/magazine/2015/04/09/what-like-poor-ivy-league-school/xPtql5uzDb6r9AUFER8R0O/story.html
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sethammons
I can relate. I did not go to an Ivy League (though, maybe I should have at
least applied). I grew up poor and outside of town. No school activities,
ever. I could barely get rides to AP exams and SATs. I had a kid at 15. I
would steal food from the cafeteria and sell it cheaper to other students so I
could afford to eat that night. I believed my only way out of poverty was a
college degree. I worked my ass off over the summers to help float me through
the year and kept a 4.2 GPA in high school. Got full ride scholarship to a
local university. Got married. Got an apartment. Wife worked as a waitress, I
scored a job as a student graphic designer working with the university's lead
graphic designer in the media department.

University for me: no activities. Ever. No traveling. Go to class. Go to work.
Go home. Ace tests (mostly). Rinse, repeat for 4 years. I did not hang out
with university classmates once. I could not afford to (I could hang out with
childhood friends because "going out" was not in our shared vocabulary). The
times spent on projects and small talk let me know how much of an outsider I
was.

I managed to finally get a beat up truck (could only be pop-started,
electronics only worked in a hard left hand turn, and more awesomeness) by my
second year, as opposed to the new Lexuses and BMWs that many of my classmates
drove.

I did miss out on something that I wish I would have been told more
explicitly: university is not just about an education, it is about networking.
I got zero networking done. I got the degree and got out. Because of my lack
of networking, I believe my career was slower to build.

Fast forward a bit. I'm doing fantastic. My oldest kid is now starting college
(we have two others), I'm still with her mom, I make over 6 figures, and I
have a job I throughly enjoy (I look forward to Mondays). My degree was
important for me and I think was a large part of helping me get out of
poverty. I never felt that I was a part of the university I attended. I enjoy
my life story and it helps me appreciate the life I lead.

~~~
whorleater
> I did miss out on something that I wish I would have been told more
> explicitly: university is not just about an education, it is about
> networking. I got zero networking done. I got the degree and got out.
> Because of my lack of networking, I believe my career was slower to build.

Strange, when did you go to college? When I first arrived in college in 2012
the commonly held knowledge among students was that "while the education
you'll learn here is important, but the chance you have to grow in the 4 years
as a person and network with others is priority #1"

~~~
sethammons
I started way back in 2001 :) I'm sure they mentioned something about
networking, but I think it may not have been as explicitly told to me as I
required at the time.

------
misterbowfinger
I can relate to this, though my situation is a little weirder than most. My
parents were immigrants and we were very poor when I was younger. They became
doctors sometime around middle school, so we effectively shifted up to upper-
middle class. Our quality of life changed in a few ways - didn't have to think
about the cost of healthcare or school. But we also didn't start buying fancy
clothes, cars, or food. My parents have never gone to fancy galas, and they
don't exactly rub shoulders with the wealthy.

I remember feeling very jarred when I first met "rich white people" in high
school. It blew my mind. What did these people do? What are their families
like? It truly fascinated me. This continued well into college where I met
even more people from very, very wealthy backgrounds. I dated someone whose
father was a dean of the school we went to, and I was extremely nervous when I
visited their... mansion.

Because I met a bunch of "rich white people" in high school, I became fairly
acclimated to them. It really does taking meeting someone face-to-face to
realize that they're not so different from you. I imagine it's the same when
rich people meet very poor people.

It makes me think that the issue isn't that poor students feel uncomfortable
around rich students, but rather that the first time they ever meet rich
students is in college. If they met earlier - perhaps in elementary or middle
school - this discomfort would not be there.

~~~
greggman
What's your definition of rich white people? Just curious. AFAIK I've never
met any "rich white people" of the type portrayed in nearly every Hollywood
movie about school (high school or collage). I'm not saying they don't exist
just that I haven't met any so I'm wondering if maybe I did and didn't know
it.

I certainly didn't met any kids in high school that had any kind of money to
flash (a fancy car or other expensive things to show off).

~~~
Retric
I worked near a 'nice' high school whose parking lot was filled with BMW's.
Which is not really 'rich' but dual income in that area often meant 300+k
family income by the time kids where in high school. Economically this meant a
5 year old car that might have been 50k new was not really unusual.

In many ways the gap between 30k / year and 300k/year is larger than the gap
between 300k / year and 3 million per year.

PS: I actually know several people that inhered low to mid 7 figures. But,
they are really more upper middle class than the kind of 'Rich' you see in a
Hollywood film. But, plenty of people would consider that rich.

~~~
mconzen
Considering the median salary in the USA is $51939, which is the equivalent of
5.1% return on $1M cash, I would say the plenty of people who consider that
more than "upper middle class" are correct.

~~~
Retric
5.1% return above average but still reasonable. However, inflation is ~2.5 -
3%. So, unless your spending principle that's 21k/year ignoring taxes. Also,
many people get discounts on health insurance and other benefits that don't
apply.

Sure, you can burn down your principle based on life expectancy. But that's
only really useful if your old. At 40 even 1% in your first year will probably
cause you to run out of money.

~~~
cjlars
Long term returns on the S&P 500 have averaged ~7% real returns including
dividends. In personal finance there's a "4% Rule" which is supposed to be
your target annual withdrawal if you're living off the money as a retiree. The
3% spread allows for market crashes, long periods of stagnancy in returns and
a small increase in living standards as you age, however, if you're young I do
agree a smaller 2-3% withdrawal level is appropriate.

source: [http://www.investopedia.com/ask/answers/042415/what-
average-...](http://www.investopedia.com/ask/answers/042415/what-average-
annual-return-sp-500.asp)

~~~
hkmurakami
You're not putting 100% of your portfolio in equities if you're living off its
cash flow [1]. ZIRP means your fixed income can flow is weak. Things to
consider when allocating as a retiree.

[1] imo it's okay to do this while you're in the workforce since you're salary
effectively acts as your fixed income portion of the portfolio.

~~~
cjlars
My prior comment may not have been 100% correct. I believe the specific
research that lead to the so called 4% rule did include a mix of stocks and
bonds. As you point out, you would tend to roll back your risk tolerance as
you reach retirement. Here's more on it for anyone interested:

[http://blog.cordantwealth.com/how-much-can-i-spend-in-
retire...](http://blog.cordantwealth.com/how-much-can-i-spend-in-retirement-
our-take-on-the-4-rule)?

------
ryandrake
I went to a very high ranking, but not "Ivy League" MBA school, with a good
mix of economic classes represented. There were the usual "in" and "out"
groups you find in any institution. The cliques were, broadly: 1\. Not-rich
American students with massive loans to finance everything 2\. International
students 3\. Already fairly wealthy consultants and bankers there just to "get
their ticket punched" 4\. A tiny handful of ultra-wealthy-and-well-connected

Group 1 (me) and 2 tended to hang out together, spend all the time studying,
clipped coupons, ate ramen noodles, never went out, and got ulcers worrying
about whether they'd ever get a job after graduation that could pay off this
gamble.

Group 3 spent and partied more and really only worried that the cushy banking
job they would inevitably get was less prestigious than the cushy banking job
their peers would inevitably get. They would occasionally interact with us
commoners.

I have no idea what group 4 did, as they didn't have anything to do with any
of us, but they seemed pretty nice and didn't seem to be worried about
anything. Kind of aloof but not assholes.

As someone who grew up in a rural mining town, I didn't exactly feel
uncomfortable but there was definitely a sense that I was getting a glimpse
into an alternate, parallel universe. Mostly people were really cool and there
was a lot less "snootiness" than I expected. Just not a lot to talk about with
someone who's economic situation was vastly different than yours, so people
naturally gravitated towards others who were similar. I guess I learned that
rich people aren't cartoon villains looking down on us while twirling their
superior mustaches. They just live in a different world from us and they
understand as little about our lives as we understand about theirs.

------
Alex_Butters
Even being a poor grad student at an Ivy feels like this. The undergrads are
wealthy and the grad students cherish every dollar of their ~$30k salary while
still sometimes do side work to get by since city's have rents set for the
higher income undergrads.

There was some resentment we had for our students to say the least.

~~~
tgb
I'm a poor grad student at an ivy, and I have to say that I find just under
30k a year far more than enough for myself. The whole starving grad student
just doesn't hold up in rich private institutes. I live in a cheap house with
four others, but my peers have apartments in some of the nicest buildings
around. I cook my own food most of the time, but many grad students eat out
twice a day, even if only at a food truck.

Now I won't pretend that 30k is much to raise a family with, or much if you
have to help out your parents or siblings. But I'm saving a sizeable chunk of
my income and I'm not even supplementing it with tutoring the rich undergrads,
which can net you two hundred plus a week for a few hours of work.

~~~
rconti
I thought the stipends were more like $12k/yr and it was not allowed to seek
outside work (though everyone did and had to, to get by).

~~~
tgb
My offers for stem PhD programs at ivy-type private research institutions were
about 30k, one was more like 35k. At university of California schools, the
stipend was more like 19k (and a higher cost of living). My current stipend is
the standard here and not due to unusual scholarships or grant money. We're
supposed to ask permission for outside work, but the department will actively
help you find people to tutor.

~~~
rconti
Ah. My sister was in the humanities at an Ivy, so that could be the
difference.

~~~
bzbarsky
Humanities grad students have a _much_ worse deal than STEM ones, typically.

From what I've seen, for STEM, the assumption is that your tuition is covered,
you get a stipend that you can actually live on, your medical insurance is
covered. For humanities, the working assumption is that none of that is true,
and if some of it happens to be true, you're in luck.

Oh, and the humanities degrees often take longer too.

------
compliance_data
Yep. I remember my parents spending more time talking to cafeteria workers, I
didn't even think it was appropriate for them to meet my professors, nor did I
think it was an option. Being weeded out from social circles was also painful.
"Let's go downtown for dinner Saturday night", "Nope I'll meet up with you
guys later, I've got something else going on."

~~~
oppositelock
That's what struck me hard as well. I was a poor kid in a largely wealthy Ivy
league school, there on scholarships and a whole lot of debt.

There's no difference between you and the wealthy folks in class, your brain
works the same as theirs.

Socially, it's a whole other story. I could never afford to go out, and all my
evenings were spent working at either a cafeteria or as a lab assistant,
anything to pay the minimum payments on my loans. My classmates would invite
me out with them for dinners and trips, but I never went, and eventually they
stopped asking. My social circle became other students in similar situations,
but it definitely made me feel like I didn't belong.

This social stratification was also present in class, when people had to form
up for groups for group projects, since those groups tended to form along
social group boundaries.

I don't regret going one bit, though. I have a great degree, paid off my debt,
and have been working in preeminent silicon valley companies for more than 20
years now.

------
zebrafish
I'm having a hard time understanding the issue or being empathetic. If
somebody invites you to go to dinner and a movie, why cant you explain that
you cant afford it or would rather not spend the money?

Would you rather them not invite you? I've always found that rich people are
not trying to put you down by talking about their boats, clothes, or
businesses. They just live with a different set of parameters that people
can't relate to.

I think it's wrong to expect Harvard to provide a "safe space" for poor
people. We should instead expect _everyone_ to respect each others
differences. Rich, poor, jamaican, colombian... People are people. Instead of
being self-conscious about what makes you different, embrace the differences
and expand your world view.

~~~
thex10
> I think it's wrong to expect Harvard to provide a "safe space" for poor
> people.

Is anyone asking for this? What a disingenuous comment.

> Instead of being self-conscious about what makes you different, embrace the
> differences and expand your world view.

Sure. But that can be a risky endeavor. Embracing differences isn't all
sunshine and roses. So what might practicing this mean in practice for the
poor student.

"Sure, I'll go socialize with you tonight and expand my world view!" Oh fuck,
now I'm broke and can't pay for housing anymore.

"Ok I'll party with you and do coke with you and expand my world view!" Wow we
both bombed our finals, but my scholarship won't support me with this lower
GPA, guess I won't see you in class next semester, bye.

~~~
zebrafish
> Is anyone asking for this? What a disingenuous comment.

I suppose I should have used a less politically charged term despite the
nature of my intention. Maybe the quotation marks triggered your response.
Safe space was simply a convenient term to describe:

> the First Generation Student Union, pushing for a better understanding of
> challenges financially disadvantaged students face.

~~~
nikdaheratik
I kind of see your point, but OTOH, retention is a _huge_ issue throughout
higher education. Some of this is due to the expansion of college compared to
the 50s and 60s, but not all. State schools have something like this, though
maybe by a different name. Scholarship athletes also have direct help in order
to keep their grades up to snuff, but also because a large portion of them are
also first generation college students.

If you have 12% or more of your first year class dropping out because of
preparedness, then the institution has a big problem regardless of whether it
is a state school or an ivy league. And if a high portion of that group is
lower income, that's a huge black eye for some of the wealthiest and most
prestigious institutions in the world.

------
Symbiote
When I was accepted to one of the best universities in the UK I applied for
the standard loans and grants from the government.

I didn't get a grant: my parents earned about £1000 more than the threshold
for one. I lived and socialised with people who did get grants. If anything,
they seemed to have slightly more spare cash than I did.

In any case, there were plenty of students with a similar amount of not-much-
money. I couldn't afford to go backpacking round Central America, but I could
go to occasional big rock concerts or a music festival. We couldn't afford to
go to the fancy clubs in central London, but we could afford to go to the...
less fancy ones, where drinks were £1 and your shoes stick to the floor. That
was just as much fun :)

------
Insanity
This is one of the reasons why I do love the system here in Belgium. I studied
at a university which is at the moment number 40 in the world university
rankings ([https://www.timeshighereducation.com/world-university-
rankin...](https://www.timeshighereducation.com/world-university-
rankings/2017/world-
ranking#!/page/0/length/25/sort_by/rank/sort_order/asc/cols/stats)) which is
pretty good if you ask me.

And the price I paid for each year was about 700 euro plus whatever the books
cost. Came to a total of about 4500 euro (books included) for the 5 years that
I studied there.

I'm glad that I did not have to pay the rediculous prices they do in the UK or
in the US, because my parents would not have been able to afford that.

EDIT: And there is actually a system for parents whom do not meet the minimum
income either, that the university covers part, or all, of the cost. I do not
have experience with that though because even though my parents did not attend
a university, their income was above the minimum to apply for that.

~~~
bbctol
At elite schools in the US, the money spent _on_ college is not the
significant gap between those from wealthy or poor families, but the money
spent before college (i.e., the background experiences they come in with) and
the money spent outside of college (i.e., the experiences you can't engage in
while your there.)

To be clear, affording college is a real struggle for lots of Americans, but
if you get into a top Ivy school, it's usually a much smaller burden than a
second-tier one. They have big financial aid programs; I have a friend going
to Harvard from a lower-class background, and their tuition is essentially
nothing, but they feel extremely out of place.

------
stanfordkid
I went to Stanford. I was poor. I think young people are bad at peeling
through the layers of superficial bullshit that mask most human interactions.

Rich, Middle Class and Poor can all have screwed up (or awesome) lives in
different ways...

If you get to the core of it we all struggle but yes the day to day is
different. I think you can always find "pockets" of people in all classes that
are curious free thinkers trying to relate to people from different
backgrounds -- especially at Ivy League schools. Unfortunately kids who are
young are also insecure about surface things.

We need to just push diversity in the dorms and fraternities/sororities
because I don't think "economics" really has much to do with it unless you
make your whole life about buying $200 shirts or going to fancy restaurants.

I also think the high end universities should give poorer kids a social
stipend -- it is a really bad thing if all the rich kids hang out together and
all the poor kids hang out together. The whole point of the Ivy League is to
put the best minds together and to build a bridge between old school wealth
and talented youth.

------
pc86
What does one do with a sociology degree, even one from Harvard?

Edit: I didn't mean that to be as critical as it sounded.

~~~
arbuge
Anything for 2 years, then MBA, then Wall Street.

~~~
pc86
I forgot about this path, you're right. A friend of a friend graduated from
Penn with a degree in some fairly specific humanities field. English Comp or
something like that (the point is that it was much more specific than
"Psychology" or something). He worked at the school for a brief time, maybe a
year, then got a graduate degree then went to Wall Street.

------
pacaro
Wait, Boston Globe, for shame. Ana's height, bone structure, and hair are
described, but we never get even a cursory description of Ted?

When you start looking for this shit, it's everywhere.

~~~
Lukassus
Well in the article is a photo of Ted so I think they assumed no description
was needed.

------
losteverything
Wow. How years can give perspective.

<poor kids sense their disadvantage.

Oh how not true. It may feel like a disadvantage but everyone has some
disadvantages.

A kept child that never had to contribute to meeting their families bills can
never understand what that is like. To not have the backstop of a bank
account.

Poor is not a indicator of effort for ivy-ers but a badge of success no kept
young adult can ever experience.

Just like families where the marriage failed, the children will never know a
happy home. And the mostly unsaid sense of decision failure associated with
divorces. Everyone has some disadvantages. Turn them into advantages.

So my "advice" to a poor student is take your experience as a one-up to those
around you that will never be able to know poor-mess. Most likely you earned
your good future as it won't be given to you.

------
swframe2
Colleges should probably offer a summer class before freshman year to teach
low income students the common sense ways to do well. The class should be
taught by seniors who are also low income.

~~~
sonabinu
'common sense'?

------
thegjp210
I would recommend those interested in an international perspective on this to
watch the below debate at the Oxford Union, which deals with class at Oxford.

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4IM6PGwjBSc&t=312s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4IM6PGwjBSc&t=312s)

------
Callmenorm
Should rich kids make an effort to help poor kids feel welcome, yes. However,
the net feelings of everybody at Harvard should be excitement for the probably
awesome future that they have after college and focus on getting the education
that will make that more likely.

~~~
lapsock
Daily interaction with people who are clearly in very different socioeconomic
circles than you is so godamn exhausting. I studied with a bunch of rich kids
when I was a child and I still have self-esteem problems 20 years later.

Harvard is overrated anyway. You're not going to get a better education,
you're just going to be around a lot of rich people.

------
brookside
*(2015)

------
chrismaeda
This is what you have to do to become an ancestor.

------
dbg31415
My experience going to an Ivy...

If you are social, if you are smart, not a selfish asshole... people will like
you, accept you, and most people realize that we don't pick our parents -- how
much money you have in college doesn't matter. Going to an Ivy... it's not the
academics that sets the alumni apart, it's the networking. You learn to judge
your peers based on who has potential and who doesn't -- this is the elitism
that a lot of people talk about. Some of that is based on money (clearly a kid
who has billionaires for parents has a leg up), but a lot of it is based on
the individual person. If you feel like a lack of money will hold you back...
then it'll hold you back. If you don't... it won't.

So how this plays out... mind you this was 20 years ago... but in my
fraternity (which wasn't one that asked for parents' financial records) we had
a checkbox on the form you turned in along with your dues, and it simply said,
"I can't pay my dues this semester." I don't recall anyone scamming the
system, and it was in place because we didn't want to discriminate against
brothers who didn't have as much money, or who were going through a rough
patch. I remember talking to a guy who had come to a bunch of our parties...
he was dead set against rushing... I pulled him aside 1:1 and asked if it was
a money thing... once we got past that he was in and became one of the
officers a few years later. (I probably wouldn't recommend everyone join a
fraternity, but they can offer a sort of extended family / support structure
that's nice when you're away from home for the first time.)

Another example... I had a weekly poker group... we started off playing for
$20 in chips. We would invite people based on who we wanted to hang out with,
smoke cigars with, drink with... and someone ended up bringing his roommate.
Cool guy, we all loved him. He said he didn't have $20 to spare. Rather than
just give him $20 (which would have solved the issue but made him feel like he
didn't belong or was beholden to someone else) we just dropped the entrance
fee and played for chores. 5 guys... The winner got 2 chores from the person
in 5th place, and 1 from the person in 4th, and 3 from the person in 2nd. And
similar allotments... I had to vacuum that kid's apartment and do his laundry
after he beat me (and he had to do the same for me when I won). If you wanted
to "buy back in" you could, but it cost you some outlandish dare... basically
everyone would get to humiliate you in exchange for more chips. In the end the
money wasn't at all important, we were still all just playing for pride.

Final example... Textbooks have always been a bitch. Even 20 years ago. I'm
sure it's worse now... but back then we'd line up classes with friends, form
study groups (typically these transcended semesters), and then we could buy
one book for 2-3 people. The added perk of this was we could share notes, do
less work... cultivate that whole networking thing that was so important. If
you were smart, took good notes... everyone wanted you in their study cluster.
You could negotiate... if you had money or not... "Let's do this, just the 3
of us... I'll take notes 1/3 of the time but I don't want to pay for the
book..." and the guy who took sloppy notes would say, "Sure, but how about you
take notes 2/5ths of the time and I'll buy the books..." And anyway I remember
a lot of people having little deals like this.

Is every school different, sure. But I think it all goes back to internal
perceptions. If you define yourself as ugly and fat... you won't get a date.
If you define yourself as stupid and slow... you will get bad grades. If you
define yourself as poor or struggling... life will be hard. But if you can
just not think about that stuff... then you realize that nobody else cares
about that stuff either. We're all too busy focusing on our own shit and own
insecurities to worry about anything you have going on in your head.

~~~
untilHellbanned
> We're all too busy focusing on our own shit and own insecurities to worry
> about anything you have going on in your head.

YES.

------
everyone
Would be nice, if there is ever some kind of paywall or login-wall, if poster
would just paste the plaintext as the 1st comment.

~~~
Pamar
Would this be legal?

~~~
everyone
I'd say technically no, but what is these days?

