
Alan Cox announces Fuzix OS - socialized
https://plus.google.com/u/0/+AlanCoxLinux/posts/a2jAP7Pz1gj
======
brandonb
For those not familiar with the Linux kernel contributors, Alan Cox wrote
large parts of the networking stack, was the maintainer of the 2.2 branch, and
was commonly considered the "second in command" to Linus Torvalds at one
point:
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alan_Cox](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alan_Cox)

~~~
rodgerd
And, interestingly enough, a senior maintainer who quit because he got sick of
Linus' behaviour.

~~~
pantalaimon
That's not true at all, Alan Cox stated himself

> I'm leaving the Linux world and Intel for a bit for family reasons. I'm
> aware that "family reasons" is usually management speak for "I think the
> boss is an asshole" but I'd like to assure everyone that while I frequently
> think Linus is an asshole (and therefore very good as kernel dictator) I am
> departing quite genuinely for family reasons and not because I've fallen out
> with Linus or Intel or anyone else. Far from it I've had great fun working
> there.

[https://plus.google.com/u/0/+AlanCoxLinux/posts/KW3TdRYwjr9](https://plus.google.com/u/0/+AlanCoxLinux/posts/KW3TdRYwjr9)

~~~
hamburglar
This is a much more recent incident. The time he abruptly resigned as
maintainer of the tty code was clearly a "fuck this, if you don't like the way
I'm doing it, fix it yourself" resignation in direct response to some classic
(if mild) Linus-in-your-face criticism.

~~~
Alupis
Aren't they the same incident? His G+ posts talks about resigning from tty
duties among other things -- but also states there was no beef between him or
any other kernel maintainers.

~~~
hamburglar
January 2013: "I'm leaving the Linux world and Intel for a bit for family
reasons."

July 2009: "I've had enough. If you think that problem is easy to fix you fix
it. Have fun. I've zapped the tty merge queue so anyone with patches for the
tty layer can send them to the new maintainer."

No, they're not the same incident.

------
JoshTriplett
I half expected him to throw in something like "Just a hobby, won't be
anything big and professional like Linux."

~~~
davb
For those not familiar, this is a reference to Linus' quote when announcing
commencement of work on Linux:

>just a hobby, won't be big and professional like gnu

[https://groups.google.com/forum/?hl=en#!msg/comp.os.minix/dl...](https://groups.google.com/forum/?hl=en#!msg/comp.os.minix/dlNtH7RRrGA/SwRavCzVE7gJ)

(Sorry for the Google Groups link...)

------
vezzy-fnord
The sardonic introduction and the fact that I initially misread his name as
Alan _Kay_ made this all the better for me, but then I came to my senses.

Alan Cox is just as interesting of a figure, though, and this is certainly a
cool project. One might berate as to why we need another toy Unix, but I
personally like having diverse itches scratched. Not to mention this might be
an easier introduction to low-level OS hacking than having to deal with all
the cognitive overhead of contributing to larger projects like Linux and the
BSDs (and then a non-x86 arch is always nice).

~~~
Dewie
> Not to mention this might be an easier introduction to low-level OS hacking
> than having to deal with all the cognitive overhead of contributing to
> larger projects like Linux and the BSDs

Do you have an opinion on Minix, in this respect?

~~~
tracker1
I'd really love to see a micro-kernel with just enough drivers to run on
modern hardware, then tied to a higher level platform. I know it may seem
really weird, but would love to see node running on something like this. I
know there's been some work on getting something like node working with
embedded systems via translation, or communication channels, it'd just be nice
to see this micro application to something larger, and removing the extra
overhead in said system.

Again, just a weird, warped thought here... Hell even getting golang or or
rust would be cool. Something you can run some code on without a lot of
baggage that you aren't using. I love where coreos is heading, and would love
to see something even lighter.

~~~
justincormack
Look at rumpkernel, OSv, the x-on-Xen solutions eg Mirage.

------
RexRollman
When I first read this, I thought this was meant to be a sarcastic statement
on SystemD haters, but this is for real? I would assume this is all geared to
scratching some kind of retro computing itch?

~~~
DanBC
People used to learn programming by learning assembly language. Here's one
example for the 68000:

First page of contents: [http://imgur.com/1XCLrsQ](http://imgur.com/1XCLrsQ)

Example instruction description:
[http://imgur.com/MV6Le34](http://imgur.com/MV6Le34)

Hello world: [http://imgur.com/5yKJlQ9](http://imgur.com/5yKJlQ9)

Off topic but if anyone is ever in Cheltenham UK (or is prepared to pay
postage) I have some old books I want to get rid of.
[http://imgur.com/AWV9HLn](http://imgur.com/AWV9HLn)

~~~
vidarh
For anyone who wants non-paper versions of stuff like this (focused on Amiga
and 8-bit Commodore computers, but there's also a bunch of more generic stuff,
and 6502/68000 material):
[http://www.bombjack.org/commodore/](http://www.bombjack.org/commodore/)

Also, the M68k programming manuals should still be downloadable from FreeScale
(what used to be Motorola's semiconductor division). At least they were when I
looked for the last a year ago or so. They are wonderfully clear and detailed.

------
krazemon
I'm a computer science major in my senior year and I've always been interested
in contributing to a big Open Source lowel level software project like this.
However, I lack experience working on Operating Systems so have struggled with
getting started. Would this be a good place to try getting involved?

~~~
lambda
Only if you have some existing interest in the hardware in question. This is a
hobby retro-computing project, for a chip that was popular 30 years ago.

If you want to get into a low-level, open source project that is relevant
today, I would try RISC-V ([http://riscv.org/](http://riscv.org/)). It's an
ISA and family of processor cores designed to be competitive with the niche
that ARM usually fills these days, but fully open source, with a freely
implemtable ISA. Now, it's pretty new and you can't buy RISC-V chips yet, but
it's done by a team led by David Patterson, who is one of the fathers of the
RISC architecture, and it looks pretty promising as a new open ISA and family
of processor cores.

Or if you want to work on hardware that is actually available today, ARM would
probably be your best bet. Maybe try porting Linux, or an RTOS like NuttX
([http://www.nuttx.org/](http://www.nuttx.org/)), to an ARM SOC that it
doesn't yet run on.

------
danellis
40k? Why is everything so bloated these days? The last 6502 machine I had only
had 32k in total.

~~~
niels_olson
Maybe he hasn't optimized yet?

------
sauere
Semi-OT: what is it with all the old-school Linux hackers and their obsession
with Google+?

~~~
vidarh
Network effects.

------
justincormack
I was wondering what he was up to, he was working on Z80 support for pcc[1].
Which is maturing quite well; it can build a lot of the NetBSD kernel for
example.

[1] [http://pcc.ludd.ltu.se/](http://pcc.ludd.ltu.se/)

------
sedachv
For anyone who thinks this is a joke, or that the Z80 can't do anything
useful: [http://www.symbos.de/](http://www.symbos.de/)

~~~
progman
The old processors are commonly underestimated. I remember the times of the
first versions of Turbo Pascal on CP/M and 8086. It had a very basic user
interface (just key strokes) but the language was very convenient, and
compilation was incredibly fast, almost instant.

I also had an Atari ST with 8MHz 68000 (no math copro) with Tempus Editor
(ASCII) and Tempus Word (word procesor). Both were written in assembler, also
incredibly fast -- faster than MS Word on a PC today. Other people used their
Atari ST to write their disseration with Signum, and others published
professional newspapers with it.

What does a PC _really_ need? A convenient assembler, a few compilers, a
screen editor (vi), a simple database, a word processor (TeX), simple TCP/IP
and other very basic things. Just the things which Alan focuses on. Unix on a
Z80 or on enhanced FPGA cores sounds really interesting.

I am a happy Linux user for decades but I am seriously concerned about the
future of Linux. On one hand Linux will probably soon be kept out from hard
locked UEFI/Secure Boot systems, on the other hand modern PCs cannot be
trusted anymore in case of security anyway. Also many Linux distros follow the
questionable systemd way which makes me wonder if Linux will soon be bloated
up like Windows. The Linux kernel runs wonderful so far but it already has
several million lines of code, and systemd will add a significant level of
complexity.

These things are reasons why I consider Alan's approach of "back to the roots"
the right way and very promising. Not only the software is open source but
also the requirements for the hardware are so low that many people could build
their own System V Unix Z80 systems at home. Cheap microcontrollers like the
Parallax Propeller could be added to provide VGA output and parallel I/O.

~~~
sedachv
> What does a PC really need?

I'd like a large address space and some way to do read and write barriers (for
real-time GC).

> These things are reasons why I consider Alan's approach of "back to the
> roots" the right way and very promising.

What do you think about OpenBSD? The only reason I switched from OpenBSD to
Lubuntu on my personal laptop is because of Adobe Flash.

~~~
progman
> The only reason I switched from OpenBSD to Lubuntu on my personal laptop is
> because of Adobe Flash.

Why?

[http://undeadly.org/cgi?action=article&sid=20070907181228](http://undeadly.org/cgi?action=article&sid=20070907181228)

[http://wiki.winehq.org/OpenBSD](http://wiki.winehq.org/OpenBSD)

------
tluyben2
I have many Z80 machines in my 'museum'; happy to see people making software
for them still. I am working on applications for Symbos[1] which is really a
show of force on these rather slow machines[2].

[1] [http://symbos.org](http://symbos.org) [2]
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2-oBNh0UkQc](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2-oBNh0UkQc)

------
fleeno
Now I really need to finish building my Z80 machine!

~~~
VLM
Sometimes I think more Z80 computers are available in 2014 than in 1994 or
2004.

I have a

[http://s100computers.com/My%20System%20Pages/Z80%20Board/Z80...](http://s100computers.com/My%20System%20Pages/Z80%20Board/Z80%20CPU%20Board.htm)

almost ready to bring up in my infinite spare time. And a console IO board and
memory board.

------
sergiolp
Nice, just a few weeks ago I finished my port of socz80 to DE0-nano
([https://github.com/slp/socz80-de0_nano](https://github.com/slp/socz80-de0_nano)).

Apparently, the original socz80 is already supported on Fuzix, so it should
run here too. More retro-fun!

------
samsaga2
The main problem with Z80 it's the lack of a good C compiler. SDCC is not
enough.

------
Yuioup
Wow a new OS for my Amstrad CPC. If only I knew how to transfer data unto it.

~~~
Zardoz84
Floppy (you can use a PC floppy drive), or grab a board to add SD or IDE to
your CPC

------
codezero
direct link to the Github project, though the parent post on G+ does have good
Q&A :)

[https://github.com/EtchedPixels/FUZIX](https://github.com/EtchedPixels/FUZIX)

------
srean

       "The time has come," the Walrus said,
       "To talk of many things:
        Of QR codes and profile pics
        Of Cox'es and their hackings"
    

[http://hackaday.com/2012/04/13/qart-codes-the-better-way-
to-...](http://hackaday.com/2012/04/13/qart-codes-the-better-way-to-put-
picture-in-a-qr-code/)

[https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-DGzr5UFEIXM/AAAAAAAAAAI/A...](https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-DGzr5UFEIXM/AAAAAAAAAAI/AAAAAAAADGY/mKmupSkdi6E/photo.jpg)

------
dorfsmay
I wonder how difficult, or even possible (no security architecture at the
processor level) it would be to port NetBSD to the z80.

~~~
cturner
Maybe from an old BSD but not from NetBSD.

There's a fairly hard cut-off between the design of early OSs with no memory
protection (e.g. legacy Mac OS, W95, Amiga, DOS, Locomotive basic), and
operating systems which ration memory out to processes (NT, BeOS, Linux, BSD,
Solaris). The later group depends on hardware features that the z80 didn't
have.

Version 7 unix is in the first camp. Whereas BSD had paged virtual memory well
before the IP became open. Also, I think NetBSD requires at least a 32-bit
word size.

There was a unix-like in the z80 era called Coherent. On the wikipedia page it
says, "There was no support for virtual memory or demand paging." I remember
it being advertised in the magazines but never got to play with it, would be
interested to hear stories.

[multiple edits, had fun thinking about this]

~~~
justincormack
Retrobsd is a good starting point.

~~~
cturner
No, same problems. 32-bit, memory protection.

~~~
justincormack
Ah I had forgotten. Well you can run the netbsd rump kernel without memory
protection, which gives you much of unix (no mmap obviously), but the 32
bitness is probably still an issue, although it might not be you will have to
implement 32 and 64 bit types but you could try to do it...

------
agumonkey
Any relation to Russ Cox (unixv6, plan9, golang) ?

~~~
agumonkey
Come on, this wasn't trolling .. (also, I googled before asking)

------
jbb555
I read the first line and I thought it was going to be a proper linux distro
without all that new systemd junk. But then I saw it was for z80. Very
disapointed :(

------
known
Unlike Linus, Alan has MBA.

------
mp99e99
This is pretty exciting!

------
phazmatis
Jokes on you, Lennart just announced 8-bit systemd.

------
101914
Yes to all your questions, Mr. Cox.

Godspeed.

