
Being a cop showed me just how racist and violent the police are (2014) - jseliger
https://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2014/12/06/i-was-a-st-louis-cop-my-peers-were-racist-and-violent-and-theres-only-one-fix/
======
leesalminen
Related article [1] shows the absurdity of how cops "think". The officer in
this article believes that he does have unlimited power and it should never be
threatened by the citizenry.

[1]
[https://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2014/08/19/...](https://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2014/08/19/im-
a-cop-if-you-dont-want-to-get-hurt-dont-challenge-me/)

~~~
whack
His very own words in the same article contradict your claims.

 _I am aware that corrupt and bully cops exist. When it comes to police
misconduct, I side with the ACLU: Having worked as an internal affairs
investigator, I know that some officers engage in unprofessional and arrogant
behavior; sometimes they behave like criminals themselves. I also believe
every cop should use a body camera to record interactions with the community
at all times. Every police car should have a video recorder._

~~~
leesalminen
The 3 subsequent sentences after your cherry-picked quote are:

> And you don’t have to submit to an illegal stop or search. You can refuse
> consent to search your car or home if there’s no warrant (though a pat-down
> is still allowed if there is cause for suspicion).

> Always ask the officer whether you are under detention or are free to leave.

> But if you believe (or know) that the cop stopping you is violating your
> rights or is acting like a bully, I guarantee that the situation will not
> become easier if you show your anger and resentment.

So this officer "agrees" with the ACLU's recommendations to LE agencies.
Great. That doesn't mean anything in the real world. If you stand up for your
rights, you will be beaten mercilessly.

He's basically saying "don't submit to illegal police activity, but if you
resist us in any way, legal or not, you will be beat.

~~~
bittercynic
Maybe he's saying you should resist in a way that doesn't overtly display
anger and resentment.

------
aklemm
I've been at a loss as to where to ask this question, so maybe HN will come
through. Are there any sheriffs/prosecutors/cities doing innovative work to
improve our justice system? I would think there must be someone out there
doing brave and smart work within the system to achieve better justice.

Unfortunately, I don't hear much from anyone like that. Instead it's appalling
quotes from the prosecutor in the Tamir Rice case (we don't second-guess
police) and the "Making of a Murderer" series (we should have locked him up
before the crime) and on and on.

~~~
bittercynic
This may be small compared to fixing the entire justice system, but all new
recruits the the SF police department attend a ropes course where all belayers
are high school students. They're not just any high school students, but those
who couldn't make it in a traditional school setting, and are getting a last
chance to finish high school at the outdoor school in San Bruno.

Seems like this program is nudging things in the right direction by helping
new police officers and local teens start their relationship with some mutual
trust and understanding.

~~~
aklemm
Brilliant! I want to hear more about these things in the news.

------
linuxhansl
A friend of mine ran white water rafting camps to bring troubled city kids and
the city police together.

He told me once that it were always the police officers who caused trouble.
Not listening to instructions, not cooperating with anybody, wanting to
control everything, quick with physical confrontation. He got disheartened
after a while.

He even mentioned cops that he knew from when they joined the force. He said
the cops started out with ideals and simply get corrupted by the system until
they are - quote - "just like the rest of them".

There are good cops out there for sure; probably the majority. Maybe serving
in the city is too much to take and police officers become cynical?

In my encounters with the police (thankfully very few) I have never met a nice
or even reasonable cop - but again my sample set is very small.

------
zupreme
Radical idea here: Appoint civilians to a once per lifetime tribunal post of
maybe a year to oversee investigation of police misconduct allegations.

By making a once in a lifetime post you avoid the people becoming "part of the
system" and you avoid unscrupulous people seeking long term benefit from the
role.

As long as police are investigated and tried by people who are part of the
same system they are, there will never be fairness.

If law enforcement truly do serve and protect civilians then they should be
accountable to civilians.

In addition law enforcement should be treated exactly like civilians are if
they are found guilty. No protective custody and no special treatment.

~~~
finid
>> Appoint civilians to a once per lifetime tribunal post of maybe a year to
oversee investigation of police misconduct allegations.

But cops are violently against civilian review boards. They'd rather police
themselves. I wonder why...

~~~
wl
The police opposition to civilian review boards is rather understandable given
widespread ignorance about when police can legally detain, search, arrest, and
use force. This is compounded by the often ugly nature of police work, even
when the police involved used good judgement and acted lawfully. That isn't to
say that non-police are incapable of adjudicating accusations of misconduct.
However, political appointments or direct elections do nothing to ensure that
members of these boards have the knowledge and judgement necessary for the
task. Of course the police unions are opposed to these people having
disciplinary powers.

------
ericjang
It's a heavy accusation to say that "police are racist and violent". Maybe
it's true, and generalizing all police as "racist and violent" is an
acceptable thing to say because it's a systemic issue.

I understand that the choice of headline was in part motivated by maximizing
clicks, but if I were a cop I probably would be repulsed by this headline.
This made me stop and think for a bit.

About cultural criticism: I'm reminded that accusations like "the Japanese are
xenophobic", or "The Chinese are rude" are OK (if said delicately) because
these are criticisms of culture, not race (wait... are these the same?).

It seems taboo though, to make sweeping generalizations of some other
cultures, in particular minorities. Is this because of a lack of "fairness",
or that cultural majorities are far more prone to reductive stereotyping? I'd
be interested to hear HN's thoughts on this.

Anyway, appointing a special, third-party prosecutor to excessive force cases
is an excellent idea. I liked what the article had to say.

~~~
kelukelugames
I am reading "Rule for Radicals." It's the bible for social social. One of the
core tenets is that people will only act on polarized issues.

I hate it when people misquote facts or sensationalize an opinion. But the
book teaches these tactics are necessary and gives historical examples.

Link to the book: [http://amzn.to/1R2ihZQ](http://amzn.to/1R2ihZQ)

~~~
ericjang
Thanks! This book looks interesting.

------
tezza
Unfortunately there are some careers that are sought after by sadists.

Those people who deeply enjoy inflicting pain on others. They seek out avenues
and careers where they can best get their fill of other people's suffering.

In some sort of order I would rank them as ISIS henchman, dictator special
guard, military police prison guard, military police, civilian prison guard
and last is the civilian police. I am not talking that all police are sadists,
far from it. Just a small fraction are. But many more than other careers (
outside dentistry lol )

Many western militaries put a lot of effort into screening out sadists, so I
don't mention them, but if the screening did not occur then they would warrant
a place.

So unfortunately to some extent the police will always be a prime target for
very unpleasant people. Sadists also identify with other sadists and form
secret groups within organisations, much like other deviants like paedophile
rings.

Military style pre screening techniques should be implemented along with the
additional oversight mentioned in the article.

------
richiverse
[http://www.theonion.com/article/insecure-frustrated-bully-
wi...](http://www.theonion.com/article/insecure-frustrated-bully-with-
something-to-prove--33427)

------
nostromo
I recommend Netflix's Making a Murderer to anyone interested in our criminal
justice system.

------
tibarun
I wonder... "Many have suspected it, but now it appears to be official: police
departments refuse to hire applicants with high IQ scores. Critics of law
enforcement have long suggested that police officers tend to be selected for
their lack of critical thinking, but news that department hiring processes
officially disqualify high-scoring applicants might still come as a shock to
many. While a rare exception to the rule might slip through the cracks, if you
are too smart, police departments simply won’t hire you."
[http://countercurrentnews.com/2014/04/police-officially-
refu...](http://countercurrentnews.com/2014/04/police-officially-refuse-to-
hire-applicants-with-high-iq-scores/)

------
zdean
I have a feeling this will be an unpopular position, but ultimately, I don't
think the solution will be to prosecute more of the bad actors (although I do
think that should happen).

The author seems to think that the "system" either can't be changed or that
any changes that could happen won't improve things. I disagree. Here are some
things I think could improve things by changing the system:

1\. Reduce the scope of what we consider "criminal" behavior.

2\. Stop/reverse the escalating militarization of police forces

3\. Involve police officers more in the community.

There are plenty of other things that can change the nature of the
relationship between police officers and the citizens of their communities.

~~~
kelukelugames
2 through 3 are very popular opinions. 1 is somewhat popular.

------
whyenot
He is not talking about today's Saint Louis PD. If he joined the force in 1994
and was there for 5 years, he's recounting events that happened 17 or more
years ago. A lot can change in (almost) two decades -- or not change, of
course.

~~~
michaelbuddy
Also that same time St. Louis PD just getting over the era of peak of violent
crime, which St. Louis was very much affected. Those were not good days.
Things are better, but that doesn't mean we dont' need cops around here doing
all kinds of different tactics to maintain order.

Some people think that their peers are going to be well behaved in all cases
if only they have their basic needs handled. That's very much not the case.
And criminals are just as diverse in thinking as normal people. Meaning some
criminals are scared to get caught, others are ready to fight, others NEED to
be intimidated or they will escalate to worse and worse. And some escalate no
matter what you do.

Cops deal with all these people. And once you meet them day after day and see
what they are capable of, you grow a lot of different types of muscles and
mental street smarts and tactics to handle and combat them.

------
luckydude
It might be worth considering these two things:

a) cops deal with criminals, by and large. I've personally witnessed how their
thinking changes from objective to "they are all thugs". It's part of the job,
I don't know how to fix that.

b) The more inequality we have the more criminals we will have. You can't pay
people $7/hour and expect them to not turn to crime. The "recovery" has pushed
a bunch of older people into minimum wage jobs - they can't survive at that
level of pay.

~~~
finid
>> a) cops deal with criminals, by and large. I've personally witnessed how
their thinking changes from objective to "they are all thugs".

Do they view the criminals on Wall Street the same way, or is that thinking
reserved for a particular segment of society?

~~~
luckydude
From what I've seen, they are just putting all the people that look like
people they have arrested into the same basket. If they arrested bankers all
day then they would start thinking all bankers are crooks. But they don't
arrest bankers, they arrest poor people (in general).

After a while, wearing a hoodie and being poor appears to be enough to make
them think you are guilty. It's depressing.

------
fiatmoney
The only shift in attitudes will come when "make it home safely" is correlated
with good rather than bad behavior.

------
yeukhon
Is it really racist, or simply a psychological phenomenon? Conformity and
group think.

~~~
finid
Racism is at the root of it. The rest are just secondary.

Understand that law enforcement is what society used to maintain law and order
during slavery and all through the Jim Crow days.

The mindset has not changed.

~~~
yeukhon
I challenge that.

Where does racism come from? How does racism develop? We don't born with
racism as an instinct, so it cannot be considered as "root" because the root
is not racism, it is merely of symptom of something else. Pick WW2, a lot of
Germans weren't racist and probably friends to many non-German people, but
then they were convinced and after conformity kicked in many became racists.

~~~
finid
If you don't believe that racism is at the root of it all, perhaps using
"discrimination" instead of racism will make things clearer.

You see, discrimination (or favoritism) is what humans do. It's innate and it
takes a higher state of consciousness to not be influenced by it. Even that is
no guarantee.

Racism is discrimination at the level of racial groups. When it takes place
within a racial group, it's plain old discrimination or nepotism.

Before Northern Europeans came to these lands, discrimination was not a
foreign concept. Neither was it where those Northern Europeans came from.
After all, that was what caused most of them to leave in the first place.

So when one race (native Americans) met another racial group (whites),
discrimination became racism. It's what humans do. Animals, too, and just as
violently.

When black Africans were brought here, it's only natural that they were
discriminated against. It's what humans do.

We'll always find one reason or the other to discriminate. Be it skin color or
religion. We can't help ourselves.

What the Nazi's did in Germany, and what happened here (extermination of
Indian tribes, slavery and Jim Crow), is when discrimination became state
sponsored (it is now the law of the land).

And society only gets to that point when the majority allows a small band of
ignorant bums to impose their twisted ideas on everybody.

This can lead to a very lengthy discussion, but it's enough at this point to
state that yes, humans are born with this ability to discriminate. Racism is
when it takes place between members of different racial groups.

------
enraged_camel
The submission went from top spot to 25th within the span of minutes.

It's a shame that HN readers don't want to read about and discuss the
important social issues of our time, and flag everything that doesn't fit a
narrow range of topics.

~~~
krapp
I didn't flag it, but given the way these threads tend to degenerate, can you
blame people for being tired of it?

Hacker News hasn't exactly proven capable of reasonable discussion of certain
topics, and the police seem to be one such topic. The discussion itself isn't
what HN wants to avoid, but the emotion and bile that often surrounds the
subject.

~~~
gkop
Also the racism topic.

~~~
krapp
Yes... but police brutality and conspiracy tangents got really toxic in the
last couple of threads about Ian Murdock, so I wouldn't be surprised if some
people just don't want to go anywhere near it right now. Unfortunately, I
think it only takes a few flags to have a significant effect over upvotes, and
there isn't an option to only flag a topic only for yourself.

------
ebilgenius
Article should be titled "Being a cop showed me just how racist and violent a
lot of the police in St. Louis were". This article is relying on the author's
personal experiences in the force and fails to bring any hard statistics.

While there is certainly a problem with racism in Police Departments this
article fails to find the ultimate source of that racism, and without truly
understanding where Police racism is coming from the authors solution of "We
need harsher punishments and better oversights" doesn't guarantee it will fix
the problem.

Like with the public in general, only a small (but very loud) percentage of
the Police are bad people. Bringing harsher punishments down on the Police is
not the answer. By their very nature the Police need to do things that put
dangerous people in harms way for the safety of others. If they are not
allowed to do that without thinking that they're going to get punished for it,
they will not be able to do their jobs effectively.

There are definitely cases where bad Police do bad things, and they DO get
punished for it, but just like every other person in America they are innocent
until proven guilty, and it can take a long time before a case can be put
together. By that time the media (and the Public's attention) have been
pointed to the next "Police tragedy".

~~~
Retra
Hard statistics are plentiful. Do a web search.

~~~
ebilgenius
I'm sure they are, however none are listed in this article.

