
Public Sans – A strong, neutral typeface for text or display - thinkalone
https://public-sans.digital.gov/
======
2bitencryption
This is so interesting. These modern sites clash really hard with my mental
visual of "Government technology." And it led me to this, which is maybe even
more interesting: [https://federalist.18f.gov/](https://federalist.18f.gov/)

~~~
eddietejeda
Yup. I run Federalist at 18F and absolutely love the work, the challenge and
colleagues.

We do everything in the open, so feel free to follow our work here:
[https://github.com/18F/federalist](https://github.com/18F/federalist)

We also implement the USWDS, which you can follow here:
[https://github.com/18F/federalist-uswds-
jekyll](https://github.com/18F/federalist-uswds-jekyll)

Let me know if you have any questions!

~~~
phkahler
>> Let me know if you have any questions!

If this is meant for web sites, I have a question and I ask this on HN a lot.
Why does the government need to provide ANY fonts? I have a real problem with
websites pushing their own fonts on users. I don't think it's their place.
Users should select their preferred font in their own browser. Why would a US
government site feel the need to use particular fonts?

If this is for publishing in .pdf format I can understand. If it's for web, I
just don't get it.

~~~
sanderjd
Because ~no users curate their fonts, and making your site look better for the
~all users who don't curate their own fonts is the better more pragmatic
choice by such a large margin that it isn't really worth much thought.

Does this negatively affect your experience? Can't you override fonts if you
want to?

Edit: note, I'm not the person the question was directed at, and have no
connection to the federalist project at all.

~~~
GalacticDomin8r
Every time I've visited a site where I thought, oh that's a terrible font,
it's been basically one of these reasons:

    
    
      * Improper selection of default font for constrained display eg tabular
      * Or the more popular "Let's create a font because we can.  It's branding."
    

There are of course other considerations involved like the increasing
diversity of rendering devices, but that doesn't make the fact that any web
site font issue is nearly always the fault of the web site operator.

I can't recall any instance of "oh, that website with a great custom font is
so appealing I'm going regularly and voraciously consume its content". The
opposite of that is true though.

~~~
iSnow
I know there have been a couple of occurrences where I dropped into the web
dev tools to see which font a site was using because they used beautifully,
fitting fonts.

------
jancsika
Before I submit a bug report-- is there a good reason that the zero isn't
dotted in this font?

For example, executive order numbers have both "O" and "0" appearing in them.
But I'm sure there are stronger examples in various gov't depts. where those
characters can occur in sequence and create errors. Not to mention any code
snippets that already appear in government web sites.

I suppose the extra ink could be a concern, but we should be moving away from
paper printouts anyway. And as we do that, extinguishing a small dot in this
great nation's zeros would be an important symbolic first step in combating
climate change.

~~~
ricardobeat
Usually these are available as “alternates”, can be enabled in system text
dialog on MacOS, also through css. (Not on desktop right now so can’t check).

~~~
jancsika
It appears CSS only has an alternate for slashed zero.

------
philips
The github page has more info [https://github.com/uswds/public-
sans/blob/master/README.md#d...](https://github.com/uswds/public-
sans/blob/master/README.md#design-principles)

------
zestyping
Why does the "j" have a larger dot than the "i"? Is there any reason for this?
It just looks like an error to me.

~~~
zestyping
Filed, and got a response right away!

[https://github.com/uswds/uswds/issues/3024](https://github.com/uswds/uswds/issues/3024)

~~~
alexpetralia
This is amazing. What is this - a startup?!

~~~
ColossalSquid32
U.S. gov't!
[https://designsystem.digital.gov/](https://designsystem.digital.gov/)

article: [https://digital.gov/2019/04/08/introducing-
uswds-2/](https://digital.gov/2019/04/08/introducing-uswds-2/)

~~~
acl777
so a start up, on series Z and going... :-)

------
chrisbrandow
What is the advantage of this over Open Sans? Is it less encumbered legally?
Or are there other advantages? Or is it simply another alternative, which is
also great.

~~~
sdinsn
Yes, Open Sans is under the Apache License while Public Sans should be under
Public Domain (although this is a bit unclear and is being debated in the
github issues).

~~~
wongarsu
While that's a great reason in the US, internationally unless it's under the
CC0 or similar the Apache License is actually preferable to Public Domain
(assigning things to public domain is not trivial or even possible everywhere)

~~~
dannyw
Can someone release their work in the public domain, and also license it under
the Apache License?

~~~
wongarsu
Sure. In any country without a concept of releasing something into public
domain the fact that you did so would be irrelevant and the Apache License
would apply, in any country where you successfully released it into public
domain that already gives all the rights granted by the Apache License. The
restrictions of the Apache License obviously wouldn't apply in those
countries.

Though if you try such legal tricks you may as well use the CC0 [1], it's
designed to emulate public domain as closely as possible in a way that's valid
everywhere.

1: [https://creativecommons.org/share-your-work/public-
domain/cc...](https://creativecommons.org/share-your-work/public-domain/cc0/)

~~~
Spivak
> The restrictions of the Apache License obviously wouldn't apply in those
> countries.

How does this work? Can you 'dual license' with public domain?

------
optymizer
The older I get, the more skeptical I become. Kudos to the author for
releasing their project, it looks like a lot of effort went into it, so I hate
to sound overly negative, but I just can't help wonder if there is a practical
reason for the US government to develop its own font?

Is Sans Serif Fonts the department where the US government can really make a
difference, or is this just a designer who happened to get a job with the US
government and designed a font because they always wanted to and now they got
the opportunity?

~~~
Invictus0
Why bother having an architect of the Capitol, then? Why bother building
government buildings out of stone when wood is cheaper? Appearances matter:
would you want to do your taxes with Comic Sans?

~~~
optymizer
The choice was never between Comic Sans or New Government Font.

There are a plethora of established sans serif typefaces available under
various licenses, as seen on this page:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sans_serif_typefaces](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sans_serif_typefaces)

These have existed well before someone said "let's create Public Sans!". It
would be nice to know what the reasoning was. The Github page only goes into
the details of how Public Sans is different from Libre Franklin.

~~~
tptacek
Many (most?) of those typefaces are commercially licensed, and can't serve as
a universal "default" for typography across all the USG's web properties.
Additionally: almost none of them are in OS/browser font stacks, so using them
would incur logistical problems in addition to licensing.

~~~
jancsika
I don't understand your second point. Public Sans isn't in OS/browser font
stacks, either. What makes its inclusion more likely than, say, a 15 year-old
open source font like DejaVu Sans?

~~~
tptacek
I took the parent comment to be saying, "look, there are all these preexisting
sans typefaces, why not just take one of the ones on this list". The answer:
because they'd have to arrange to pay, and to source them from the commercial
services that make them available.

I agree that there are other typefaces they could use! I was mostly commenting
on how a list of faces that includes Avenir, Univers, and FF Meta was probably
not the best summary of the available options.

------
beefhash
I've been wondering why all these new fonts tend to have a strong focus on
sans serif font (Fira has no serif variant, Source Serif Pro came later than
the other Source fonts). Aren't there a lot of situations (namely, lengthy
legal documents) where you'd prefer a serif font before you want a sans serif?

~~~
snide
Primarily because they focus on interfaces, not publishing. Serif is
traditionally used for legibility of long text. Sans always wins for actual
interface design (at least those with some manner of complexity) because it's
much less visually distracting when used in a variety of weights and sizes.
Interfaces tend to have much more mixed usage so we usually go with sans.

Generally just using the system font is fine for most UI interfaces and the
only good reasons to change it are:

1\. You have a specific branding style you need to achieve (this is becoming
rare) 2\. Your interface has pixel perfect user created content where the
difference in font to font usage between OSes / Browsers would cause actual
breaks in layouts from user to user.

I run into the later often, and so we end up picking a neutral style font like
this because it's the closest thing to a generic "system font" like Roboto or
San Francisco that has a friendlier license.

Personally I prefer Inter UI [https://rsms.me/inter/](https://rsms.me/inter/)

~~~
airstrike
Thanks for the link! I've been looking for a free-as-in-beer, good-looking
font family with tabular numbers and had pretty much given up on hope. Inter
UI is fantastic!

------
pcwalton
Good choice to base this on Franklin Gothic. Given that IRS tax forms already
use it, it's effectively been part of the US government's "brand identity" for
a long time.

------
SamWhited
AUR package for easy install on Arch: [https://aur.archlinux.org/packages/ttf-
public-sans/](https://aur.archlinux.org/packages/ttf-public-sans/)

------
ocdtrekkie
The question neither this page nor the GitHub answers is... why? I understand
a lot of corporations did their own fonts to escape font licensing. Is there
fonts the government is currently licensing and trying to get out from under?
Where will I see this font? Is there a reason other open source fonts weren't
already adequate?

~~~
crazygringo
A typeface is a key part of an organization's visual identity.

A typeface expresses many things, you can imagine it as different sliders
along, say, 100 different dimensions, similar to songs expressing combinations
of feelings.

An off-the-shelf typeface will express things that are close to exactly what
you're looking for, but almost never exactly 100%. Commissioning a font gives
you _exactly_ the visual identity you're looking for, zero compromises.

Additionally, distinctiveness/uniqueness has its own value too -- corporations
commission typefaces so no other brand will share the same identity. For a
large nation-state, that carries the same value.

(Although, unlike a company like Microsoft or IBM, I'm not sure if the US
Government can prevent any private company from using it?)

~~~
JorgeGT
In this case, the most powerful nation-state on Earth established its exact
visual identity by forking a font from an Argentinian dude whose last pic on
Instagram is of Ernesto "Che" Guevara x)

------
_emacsomancer_
I appreciate the tailed 'l'.

~~~
phlakaton
Did you say the tailed I? ;-)

~~~
daliusd
I think he said tailed "|".

------
OliverJones
Interesting that this web site uses a Let's Encrypt certificate. I suppose it
saves the maintainers from being gouged by a beltway bandit charging thousands
to monitor and then update an ordinary CA-issued certificate.

~~~
bmogilefsky
(I work for 18F but don't officially represent it here.)

The site is hosted via Federalist
([https://federalist.18f.gov/](https://federalist.18f.gov/)) a SaaS which runs
on top of sibling Platform as a Service cloud.gov
([https://cloud.gov](https://cloud.gov)), which is based on Cloud Foundry.
(Think of cloud.gov as "government-compliant and -operated Heroku" and you're
not too far off.)

One of the benefits of using cloud.gov is that it automatically brokers and
renews certs from Let's Encrypt... Math is math, and there's no sense spending
taxpayer money where we don't have to! Here's the page about it, including a
link to the broker source at the bottom: [https://cloud.gov/docs/services/cdn-
route/](https://cloud.gov/docs/services/cdn-route/)

Both are operated by 18F ([https://18f.gsa.gov](https://18f.gsa.gov))... We're
all feds! If anyone is interested in joining us check out
[https://18f.gsa.gov/join/](https://18f.gsa.gov/join/)

~~~
chasenyc
I'm very curious your thoughts about the NTE clause of employment stating you
can only work there a maximum of four years. And you are initially hired for a
set two year term.

------
taffer
I think this is really beautiful.

~~~
canada_dry
> I think this is really beautiful.

Different strokes (literally). I quite dislike it. In my mind this font lacks
symmetry and consistency needed to be easily readable. Especially how the
curved base appears to drop below the flat base! It hurts my eyes.

~~~
mmmrk
You mean how e.g. the base of "o" drops below the base of "r"? That's standard
optical compensation because if you make them level, the curved base seems to
sit higher than the flat base. The amount of compensation needed differs
depending on point size.

------
cpeterso
Interesting take: Does Public Sans' OFL-1.1 license violate the Establishment
Clause?

[https://github.com/uswds/public-
sans/issues/31](https://github.com/uswds/public-sans/issues/31)

~~~
sdinsn
It definitely doesn't. His argument kinda relies on the idea that the
government interacting with a religious organization in any manner is a
violation. This is just not the case

------
k_sze
What do “strong” and “neutral” mean in this context?

~~~
lbotos
Inspired by Helvetica. I'm not being facetious.

For example, this is a "strong" face, but it's not "neutral".

[https://eyeondesign.aiga.org/this-brutalist-inspired-
stencil...](https://eyeondesign.aiga.org/this-brutalist-inspired-stencil-font-
looks-just-as-good-on-a-wall-as-it-does-a-book-cover/)

Also strong, and not neutral.

[https://eyeondesign.aiga.org/use-this-brick-of-a-typeface-
wh...](https://eyeondesign.aiga.org/use-this-brick-of-a-typeface-when-you-
need-to-make-a-point/)

------
stuaxo
You know that something that says it's neutral is always anything but.

Very readable, and it screams "America" which makes sense given who made it.

~~~
jpatokal
Does it? To my admittedly untutored eye the first impression is Helvetica aka
Switzerland, although it's not quite as stripped down:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helvetica](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helvetica)

This, on the other hand, screams America: [https://www.dafont.com/american-
captain.font](https://www.dafont.com/american-captain.font)

------
legitster
I can only imagine the hours of meetings and deliberation that went into
developing a one-size-fits-all, cross agency font. That meets all sorts of
weird political and accessibility guidelines.

Still, it only has to be done once! I'm a huge fan of what the USWDS has done
so far. I love the model of an internal tech resource for the government.

------
jarvuschris
Check out the Digital Services Act, a current bill going through congress to
throw some gas on efforts like this: [https://www.wired.com/story/kamala-
harris-digital-services-a...](https://www.wired.com/story/kamala-harris-
digital-services-act-2019/)

------
cjjuice
I am really impressed with 18F and how the federal government has really
stepped up their game on the digital/open source front.

It does make me wonder though if the usage rights of these projects should be
restricted to use by US taxpayers though since that is who is ultimately
paying for this work.

~~~
marsRoverDev
You could say the same thing about the UK government's equivalent, which I
would argue is somewhat of an influence on 18F (though I'm not an insider).
They actively open source their work, this being a great example of it:
[https://github.com/alphagov](https://github.com/alphagov)

I don't think that 18F and US taxpayers lose out on anything by open sourcing
this. It builds a lot of good will and they are probably using systems that
have been contributed to by others as well.

~~~
DanBC
I like some of the NHS Digital work too. They have some interesting blogs, eg
this: [https://digital.nhs.uk/blog/transformation-
blog/2019/icons-a...](https://digital.nhs.uk/blog/transformation-
blog/2019/icons-avoid-temptation-and-start-with-user-needs)

~~~
sambaldwin
Thanks for sharing, I didn't know about this.

------
flixic
Fantastic font. I've long seen Helvetica (literally meaning "Swiss" with one
added letter) used in official US forms, communication and the like. If this
becomes the "US brand" and replaces Helvetica as a national font, it's a
really great choice.

~~~
draugadrotten
Is it just me or is the kerning in "typeface" a bit off? It looks like ty-
peface. (Chrome,Mac)

~~~
bencollier49
Came here to say the same thing. The kerning looks wrong somehow.

------
yellowapple
Just installed it as my system UI font under Linux (previously I was using
B612, and before that CMU Sans). Took me by surprise how readable it is even
at small sizes.

I just wish there was a monospaced variant/equivalent so I can run it in my
terminal/Emacs windows.

------
UI_at_80x24
Looks decent, but "I" "O" and "0" could be improved.

~~~
delinka
Improved for what use case? This is not a font I'd expect anyone to write code
in (to each his own, however.) Context will determine how a particular
character is read.

~~~
dredmorbius
Governments frequently publish references in which accurate literal
transcription is necessary; law, regulation, and (legal) code references,
identifiers, and the like.

1lO05S and other commonly-confused characters are best clearly distinguished.

------
floatingatoll
Is it legal for the federal government to specify a font license other than
“This is released into the public domain”? They automatically give up all
copyright upon publication, which ought to exhaust any licensing terms.

~~~
xenophonf
How is the USWDS specifying a font license? It's a derivative work, so the
license comes from upstream.

~~~
floatingatoll
If a license is granted to a work and the US government accepts that license
and then publishes derivatives of that work, the US government releases its
derivatives into the public domain without regard for the original licensing,
as they have complied with the terms of the license _to_ them and have no
legal right to encumber their fork with _any_ restrictions. Licenses depend on
copyright, without which they are unenforceable, and the government is
prohibited from copyrighting any work. The license clause should, therefore,
be invalid and unenforceable upon any derivatives of this work, regardless of
the accidental inclusion of it.

My idea is being hashed out on their GitHub, though sadly I suspect they’ll
need lawyers to advise them rather than HN commenters such as I:
[https://github.com/uswds/public-
sans/issues/30](https://github.com/uswds/public-sans/issues/30)

------
TheRealPomax
No FVAR version mentioned on the website? (If there isn't one: it's rather
entirely worth converting your different masters into a single FVAR master
instead)

------
daveheq
Arial's always looked fine to me... I don't know why this wheel needs to keep
being reinvented.

~~~
danso
Aesthetics and flaws aside, Arial is a proprietary font.

------
SlowRobotAhead
Nice lowercase L... first thing I look for in a font!

|Il nonsense is unacceptable, but I have to deal with it all the time.

------
ukulele
What if the progression ends up being:

1\. Publicly-funded font(s) created

2\. Use on govt websites grows

3\. Publicly-funded CDN used for said govt site assets

4\. Other, non-govt sites use said font(s)

5\. Govt becomes asset host for web basics across thousands of non-govt sites

This may be another step in CDN lifecycle of startup --> megacorp -->
commoditization --> govt service.

~~~
nathan_long
Why would we go beyond step 2? As a taxpayer, I could buy the argument that
the govt needs a new font, and that, having made one, it should make said font
available for free so taxpayers can get the benefit.

I don't see why my taxes should fund a public CDN, though.

~~~
yellowapple
It's possible (probable, even) that the government would want to use a CDN for
static assets (like fonts) for the same reasons that sufficiently-large
private orgs would want to use a CDN for static assets.

In that case, it's also possible (probable, even) that some particularly-
lazily-developed smaller sites would simply point to those same CDNs instead
of hosting things themselves (much like how quite a few sites point toward
CDN-hosted versions of jQuery and FontAwesome and such).

The only remaining step would then be for that taxpayer-funded CDN to cache
any and all taxpayer-funded static assets.

------
boterock
It is sad that any nice font looks like crap with Windows font rendering.

~~~
ComputerGuru
Windows does not have crap font rendering, Windows has advanced hinting
support that varies by typeface and is infinitely customizable. Other
operating systems apply a global hinting that typically discards the font
designer's own preferences for how the font should look (especially at smaller
scales).

Fonts without that manual hinting look like crap on Windows because Windows
does not force through its own rendering/hinting/kerning overrides.

And all that is probably besides the point: if you're referring to how the
fonts are rendered within a webpage, all the major browsers use their own
custom rendering via one (finely tuned) set of parameters and interfaces for
macOS/Linux/etc and another (rudimentary) for Windows. And most webfonts do
not include any sort of hinting instructions in the payload, so even if the
original typeface had manual hinting and would render well on a proper type
engine normally, when served over the web even to a browser doing things right
it'll still appear horrible.

In case you didn't know, Microsoft is _really_ big on typography, and has
commissioned a number of incredibly beautiful typefaces that render perfectly
under Windows (and other operating systems).

~~~
yellowapple
I don't think I've seen a single typeface that actually looks good on Windows
8 or later, though. Even Linux does a better job (with or without subpixel
rendering).

Maybe I just haven't viewed enough fonts on recent Windows versions to have
encountered the better examples, though; are there any fonts (to your
knowledge) that do look especially good on Windows (and/or better than they do
on macOS or a FreeType-using Unix-like OS)?

~~~
GoblinSlayer
[https://abload.de/img/tmpxwk2y.png](https://abload.de/img/tmpxwk2y.png) this
is Verdana on Windows.

------
rdsubhas
[https://github.com/google/fonts/issues/1923](https://github.com/google/fonts/issues/1923)

------
canada_dry
I dislike it! Especially how the curved base appears to drop below the flat
base!

In my mind this font lacks symmetry and consistency needed to be easily
readable. It hurts my eyes.

------
lotyrin
Hinting is all jacked up in Chrome on OSX.

------
acd
Nice font!

------
harshreality
Sans is overused. Please do not use (or carefully consider before using) sans
fonts for long blocks of text you expect people to read.[1]

[1]
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=soYKFWqVVzg#t=34m53s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=soYKFWqVVzg#t=34m53s)

"I disagree, I like sans [for long prose] better" comments miss the point;
this is not an anecdata competition, it's about _how many_ people prefer each
one (and also it would be worth considering _how strongly_ they hold that
preference, since mildly pissing off even a slight majority of your
readers/customers is better than _really_ pissing off a smaller percentage).
Even if you're skeptical of the studies Mayer looked at, Google (literata) and
Amazon (bookerly) seem to be in the serif camp. Do you think Amazon made a
mistake, too?

~~~
JshWright
That's a pretty disgusting video description...

~~~
cududa
The fact that you’re getting downvoted ... god the people in this industry..

