
M.M.A. Fighter’s Pummeling of Tai Chi Master Rattles China - jseliger
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/10/world/asia/mma-martial-arts-china-tai-chi.html?action=click&pgtype=Homepage&region=CColumn&module=MostViewed&version=Full&src=mv&WT.nav=MostViewed&_r=0
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hzhou321
Certainly, there are illusions around traditional martial arts , which is
highlighted by this Taichi guy's agreement to such fight in the first place.
However, the Chinese reaction is not simply a shock reaction (as the title
"rattle" implies), but a deep-rooted cultural reaction. Chinese culture is
about longterm wellness, which, in a superficial way, is about face/elegance.
It is much more important in Chinese culture to gain respect or to save face,
which is of long term value (often beyond one's lifetime). Winning a fight by
keep pounding a guy on a ground with no obvious defense is the opposite of
elegance (elegance is equivalent to civilization in the culture), therefore,
Chinese people would feel definitely not right and the reaction is simply to
emphasize their value system: winning with no elegance is not winning at all.
In fact, it is worse than losing, highlighted in the following events.

In another word, if the Taichi guy beat the MMA guy by in the end hitting the
defenseless repeatedly, the Chinese reaction will probably be the same. While
the MMA style does emphasize compounding the weakness, it is probably one of
the reasons that it is never popular in China.

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basurihn
So would Mr. Xu have received the same negative public feedback if he had
avoided the ground and pound, and won without perceived brutality?

I'm having difficulty seeing how this fight could have happened without either
some form of KO/TKO, which I assume would have generated the same outrage, or
degenerating into a farcical slapfest, which would have lost Xu face anyway.

Am I wrong? Or would Xu have killed a sacred cow no matter how he won? Because
let's face it, it was clearly Xu's fight to lose. Xu should just come to
America then, we have different sacred cows here.

~~~
hzhou321
> So would Mr. Xu have received the same negative public feedback if he had
> avoided the ground and pound, and won without perceived brutality?

I think Mr. Xu would not receive negative public feedback if he simply stops
at knocking Mr. Wei down or simply choke hold (not deadly). After all, the
fight was organized and started in a fair mood. I think before the result,
most audiences are simply curious. And the ground pounding is quickly stopped
and people rush to take care of Wei, which supports my belief on what is the
real show stopper.

KO would be acceptable if it is perceived to be necessary, that is, if there
were signs that Xu could lose without the quick KO.

By sacred cows, do you refer to cultural value system? If yes, then that is my
point. If not, what will be the equivalent sacred cow in America?

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horsecaptin
If you think the Chinese are so sensitive that one youtube fight has suddenly
hurt their pride, then you're a fool.

It's about money. The movie industry, the tourism industry, the martial arts
training industry.. they'd all be heavily affected if Chinese martial arts
were suddenly shown to be just a gimmick, especially if the person proving a
point was in-fact Chinese.

It's about power and respect, which in China (and everywhere else) translates
to one's ability to make money. "Don't rock the boat". When so much seniority
has been earned by so many people, naturally they'll try to maintain their
place.

~~~
zigzigzag
What I don't get is how Chinese people don't already know this. I know nothing
about fighting at all but from the article and the comments on the NYTimes
site it seems it's common knowledge in the west that MMA fighters always win
against other styles, it's practically scientific fact. Does the government
censor information about martial arts too, or what's going on here? How can so
many Chinese people be ignorant of the basic facts of fighting that seeing a
fight of the kind that has been happening for decades causes some scandal?

That's the thing we should be discussing here. Not martial arts, but how such
an asymmetry in information came about.

~~~
hzhou321
First to reply the parent claim: the majority of Chinese reactions come from
people who receive zero money from the fame of martial arts. Therefore, money
cannot account for the overwhelming reaction. To check, who do you think
receive money from the kung fu mystery?

Now to answer your question: it is not about the amount of information, it is
about one's belief. Belief has to be shaken from within; otherwise, opposite
information from outside often only compound one's belief.

The belief in the traditional martial arts is a zen that to most it is an
ultimate goal, not a reality. Defeating kung fu practitioners does not mean
that true kung fu masters who obtained the zen can be similarly defeated.

Beliefs, culture, and faith are not in the scientific domain. And
philosophically, it is questionable that currently accepted scientific domain
is superior to beliefs, culture, and faith.

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nickpsecurity
It shouldn't be a surprise after the Gracie Challenge showed most of the arts
couldn't deliver against well-trained, well-rounded fighters that
systematically exploit their weaknesses. My favorite example on someone from a
kung fu background is the video below since it shows how helpless they are
without ground training. Also, Rorion's excellent narration.

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VN6PvPCrStI](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VN6PvPCrStI)

Edit to add: "At this point, Royce could apply the choke but he elected not
to. There's many variables in groundfighting..." Nah, Royce is just an asshole
who was putting another asshole in his place with humiliation. He had a God
Complex when I met him that didn't fit his fight record. ;)

~~~
digitalzombie
Except Judo.

There are quite a small number of old martial art that's pretty decent still.

Gracie is just BJJ which is just an offshoot of Judo anyway with more emphasis
on ground. So I'm not sure if it really counts as MMA would he just uses his
school of Martial Art.

~~~
WilliamDhalgren
> There are quite a small number of old martial art that's pretty decent
> still.

could you mention a few more? And distinguish if its possible which of those
were generally practiced as highly competitive full contact sports (within
their rulesets of forbidden strikes etc), and which mostly as a martial art?

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gozur88
>Tai chi, while a martial art, is viewed by many today as a spiritual
breathing and balance exercise enjoyed by people of all ages, usually
performed in slow motion in a quiet park instead of a fight ring.

Tai chi is a martial art in the same way yoga is a martial art. I'm kind of
surprised this gets more than a shrug out of Chinese people. I would be
surprised if a practitioner of one of the more practical Kung Fu styles could
beat a good MMA fighter, but it would have been a lot closer.

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basurihn
Traditional martial arts can be quite effective if practiced in an effective
manner. I've been to traditional schools where the pinnacle of training
involved fighting each other bare knuckle.

As amusing as it would be to see a tai chi practitioner systematically
progressing to bare knuckle tai chi sparring, perhaps their art could be more
effective if it were trained more aggressively.

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philmander
The belief in chi/qi power is deeply rooted in Chinese martial arts. Something
that has no scientific basis.

The point here is not which fighting style is better, but that the tai chi
master does not have any mystical or superhuman chi power he can draw upon to
defeat his opponent. This is "the fraud" Xu Xiaodong wished to expose.

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babesh
Pride cometh before the fall - Chinese people. If it is untested it doesn't
work - martial arts. It's hard for someone to recognize a falsehood if his
livelihood depends on it - martial arts schools.

Money attracts talent. There is relatively little money in traditional martial
arts. No money results in little talent.

That MMA fighter looks fit. That martial arts guy does not and looks totally
unskilled backing up. You have no power in your body and legs backing up like.

Those raised arms are completely worthless. Tensed muscles cannot react. They
need to release tension first thus slowing down reaction time.

Lessons from my father who was in the army when soldiers liked to fight each
other.

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DerekL
Dupe:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14316091](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14316091)

