
Show HN: I asked an HN member for feedback and she blew my mind - kabuks
A few days ago, I responded to a comment by bloggergirl offering to read anyone's web copy and help. I shot off an email hoping for a paragraph or two of feedback on my startup's copy.<p>Instead I received a professional, detailed deck of tons of invaluable well thought out feedback. It must have taken her an entire afternoon.<p>Here's a link to it: http://www.slideshare.net/shereefb/recommendations-for-bettermeans<p>To top it off, this isn't someone with a lot of free time on her hands, she's only days away from launching her own startup (page99test)<p>This community blows my mind!
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jacquesm
HN is rapidly changing in to some real-life version of pay-it-forward. I'm
going to have to think hard on a way in which I can contribute to this
phenomenon, I think that some amazing stuff may grow out of it.

~~~
terryjsmith
As a programmer I've been trying to think of a way to do my own Offer HN or
the like. The problem is that most programming projects are much broader in
scope and there's a learning curve to learning my code for someone else who
follows up. I'd be open to suggestions for how I could lend my programming
knowledge to this phenomenon.

~~~
StavrosK
I'm thinking of offering to help someone create a weekend project, if they can
design but not program or whatever. I've been looking for a small project to
do (no longer than a weekend) to familiarise myself with AppEngine, but I
don't know what sort of uptake this would have, in a community of programmers.

~~~
codeslush
How about startupweekend.org? If you haven't heard of it, you are missing out
big time. If they don't have it in your city, contact them and see about
helping to get one there. BTW, I don't have anything to do with them other
than having participated in one near me and I thoroughly enjoyed it.

~~~
StavrosK
That sounds good, thank you. I already have a startup, though, so I just
wanted to do something quickly over the weekend. I'll give startup weekend a
try, it sounds like a good place to meet people!

~~~
codeslush
Glad you are open to the idea. Even if you already have a startup, here's a
few reasons to do it anyway:

1\. SW attracts a lot of different types of people - BizDev/UIX-
Designers/Coders/Legal/etc... You may help someone w/o the technical chops
bring some traction to their vision/dream/idea.

2\. You WILL meet people that might be useful to you down the road. So great,
you have the technical chops, but lack bizdev - well, you are in luck b/c you
have met people who have that skill that might be able to help your dream come
true.

3\. It's fun! It's intense, but very fun. Especially if you are a competitive
individual.

4\. It's not a bad recruiting ground for tech talent. These people go to these
events because they have passion. What more could you ask for?

When I went to it, I wasn't sure what to expect. A bunch of unemployed novice
programmers? A pure networking event? I never, in my wildest expectations,
expected to meet such quality people at the top of their respective games.

I've never been to events like this (hackathons/etc...) so maybe this is a
common thread. For me, it was a great experience that I would repeat again -
regardless of my current status.

Hope this helps someone.

------
fireitup
SHEREEF, thank you! I really didn't expect you to say anything about this
little PPT. Much appreciated. :) _blush_ Honestly, how nice of you!

I really hope your site does well because BETTERMEANS.COM is a super-smart
idea. It was a total privilege to get involved with your website at all. I
hope everyone checks it out.

BTW, I received an email from you and will get back to you pronto privately.
In the meantime, much appreciated. And to everyone else who wrote to me re:
help on copy, I'm happy to get back to you over the coming days: joanna AT
page99test DOT com.

Go, Hacker News community!

~~~
kabuks
Least I could do Joanna.

btw, you should use your bloggergirl account, instead of a new one so folks
start recognizing you in this community.

~~~
bloggergirl
I forgot my password the other day (restarted computer and couldn't retrieve
it), so I had to login as fireitup. Anyway, good call --- I didn't even think
about my username when I commented.

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wtracy
Clickable link: [http://www.slideshare.net/shereefb/recommendations-for-
bette...](http://www.slideshare.net/shereefb/recommendations-for-bettermeans)

Poster is not kidding about how complete and professional this slide deck is.
I'm impressed!

~~~
pmjoyce
I'm impressed too. What gets me most is the clarity of thought that's so
evident in the analysis. Like a lot of things in life; seeing someone who
truly has mastery over their craft makes difficult things look so easy.

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markbao
Wow, that's amazing.

bloggergirl, you need to write and sell an ebook on web copy. Marketed
correctly (and I have no doubts that you'd be able to), you'd make tens of
thousands of dollars at the least. I mean, a $20 or even $25 ebook on web copy
that will increase my conversion rate? Incredible value prop. I'd buy it.

~~~
patio11
I would buy that book, too, but I would feel remiss if I didn't point out that
she could charge at least high four figures for a week of consulting _and get
it_. The deck she produced here is worth north of $2,000.

~~~
fireitup
Hire me, then! LOL! :) ~joanna

~~~
patio11
Please check your email at your convenience.

~~~
djcapelis
Well played. One of my favorite things about HN is that people act on
opportunities.

Sounds like a smart move for both of you.

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andre3k1
Wow, the amount of time and effort that she must have dedicated in completing
her feedback is astounding.

The least we can do is bump up a post about her startup the day it launches.

Bloggergirl, get ready for the voluminous amount of web traffic on launch day!

~~~
jacquesm
Hm, you've just given me an idea: A HN based traffic exchange, where HN
members with large websites would donate excess inventory to pull new starter-
uppers off the ground.

Does that have merit?

~~~
netcan
I think this is the type of thing where formulating & formalizing is a
mistake. It would be better if this sort of just culturally "evolved."

    
    
       eg. 

jacquesm posts 'I'll promote one startup on launch day that helps another HNer
in a meaningful way.'

bloggergirl offer help accepted by kabuks resulting in this post.

I wonder if HN isn't a little big for this though.

~~~
proexploit
Just like attempting to formalize it may be a mistake, thinking HN might be
too big is an equally limiting mistake. Ideally the pay-it-forward concept
would encompass every individual globally and as such it has no upper limit.

When in doubt, just concentrate on what you can do :)

~~~
netcan
Maybe that should be maybe HN is too big considering that this isn't its main
purpose.

------
kabuks
Clickable link to bloggergirl's startup: <http://page99test.com/>

~~~
ZeroMinx
I know it's standard internet stuff, but if I click on a big button saying
"Start reading", I want to start reading. I do not want a big form asking me
to register. If I like the service, yes, I will want to register, but give me
a chance to form an opinion first.

~~~
8ren
Yes. There's a strategy of "gradual engagement":
<http://www.lukew.com/ff/entry.asp?1128> (HN:
<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1774007>) gives some specific ideas on
implementing it - and some impressive results.

Basically, don't require more info from the user than you need right now. An
example is you can read HN/reddit without an account - but if you want to
vote/submit/comment, you need an account (and that's all: email etc is
optional).

Although you might really want signups, and so it seems to makes sense to get
them ASAP, the counter-productive result is that people don't go further. I
didn't; the GP didn't - and that's even after the wonderful publicity here on
HN. You've got to make it as _adoptable_ as possible.

~~~
patio11
My test with gradual engagement was an epic, epic failure for my business, for
what it is worth. I got vanishingly few customers and they caused hugely
disproportionate support issues. (Exacerbated by one poor implementation
choice.)

------
translated
Bloggergirl's website is nicely designed and I like the idea as well. 3.1MB of
background image is going to cause her grief in the long run though.

~~~
fireitup
You're right about the page load times. We're working with our designer to get
that down to something more manageable. In the meantime, sorry. :(

~~~
subbu
I would be happy to do that for you :)

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DiamondsSteak
Bloggergirl, you inspired me to create an account here! Love reading about
people sharing their passion and helping others along the way.

I would also like to help review copy and provide feedback if anyone needs it.

I do brand management marketing at my day job and have a near-obsession with
clear messaging. It's a shame if you have a great product/service but your
customer doesn't understand the benefit.

~~~
photon_off
Welcome to HN! It might be helpful to include an email address in your profile
blurb :)

I launched a "toolbar" (it's actually a bookmarklet) two weeks ago and
although anybody I show it to in person thinks it's great, everyone else just
gets confused. I put a lot of work into it, an unhealthy amount really, and as
a result have found its lack of adoption frustrating to the point of just
giving up. I use this thing every day, to bookmark and to search, yet I cannot
adequately explain it much less motivate people to understand what it does. It
feels awful.

At any rate, the URL is <http://dashler.com/toolbar> if you want to take a
look. I'm not even sure the idea is a good one, anymore. Of about 1000
visitors, only about 2 use it regularly. I'm ready to scrap the whole thing. I
would very much appreciate any advice you could offer pass along. I'm looking
to ditch the video and use a slideshow of screenshots, but I'm not even sure
where to begin.

<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1783632>. Is the HN submission of it.

I'd be grateful for any advice! Thank you.

~~~
DiamondsSteak
First of all, don't give up yet!

I was watching the video tutorial and it helped explain the concept. I think
videos are overdone these days, but this is a case where a live demo helps
clarify how much time you save by not typing or clicking on different browser
pages to search.

I want to play with the site and features to fully understand the benefit of
the bookmarklet before providing feedback.

In the meantime, here are a couple questions for you:

What made you create this bookmarklet?

What type of person would most benefit from this tool? (Target market)

When you explain the concept to people, at what point do they start getting
confused? (Maybe you just need to improve a certain part of the message, not
the whole thing.)

Where are these 1000 visitors from and why don't they use the tool? (You could
be attracting the wrong people, or finding the right people but talking to
them in the wrong way.)

Of the 2 people who use the tool regularly, what made them decide to use it
and why do they like it? (Analyzing successes provides insight for what to
continue/repeat in the future.)

Why do you think screenshots would be more effective than a video?

------
ZeroMinx
It's going to be very interesting to see what happens when HN continue to
grow. I don't know how big HN is right now, and I don't know where the
breaking points for an online community are, but growth does mean change. I
remember some years ago I'd go to slashdot to read the comments...

This is and has been a fantastic site (I'm personally fairly recently a
registered user, before that I was just reading), and I hope it will continue
to be. But I do also know that if it continues to grow, it will mean there
will have to be changes (more people = more trolls, etc). Dealing with change
is always hard, I hope the spirit of HN will remain.

EDIT: actually meant to be a follow-up to jacquesm's post. It appears I failed
:-/

~~~
SkyMarshal
It's the curse of the Eternal September. The only forums I've seen that
managed to grow large while still keeping the posts on topic are ones with
strong moderation that don't hesitate to quickly ban trolls, rather than just
relying on the community to downvote them.

~~~
aberkowitz
As of last update, HN has 30 [1] moderators composed of YC alumni.

[1] <http://ycombinator.com/newsfaq.html> scroll to "Who are the editors?"

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momotomo
This is a real bar-raiser in terms of community help. Seeing a submission to
someone of this quality at no cost is inspiration to participate - to both
keep the ball rolling, and also to compete for "coolest free help" spot number
one.

Very positive outcome.

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acconrad
It's posts like these that make me scratch my head when people say HN is going
downhill.

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tptacek
page99test.com is gorgeous; who designed it?

~~~
percept
Was just reading about it here:

<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1835288>

~~~
tptacek
Ahhh; I see that client list and leap to the assumption: "hellaciously
expensive".

~~~
bmr
I thought the same thing, but not having a lot of experience hiring designers,
I am curious what type of numbers we are actually talking.

1-5k? 5-10k? More?

~~~
patio11
With MailChimp in your portfolio? Substantially north of $10k, just on design
work (no CSS, no implementation), if I'm guessing right.

~~~
fireitup
WorryFreeLabs was surprisingly affordable. My partner Lance and I
'bootstrapped' these design costs with our bonuses from our day jobs (and
didn't exhaust our bonuses with it). Without question, I'd recommend
WorryFreeLabs if you're looking for a group to take your idea and bring it to
life in design. We're continuing to work with them as we build out
page99test.com, and they're as fantastic as ever.

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marcamillion
This is why I love the age I live in, the internet & HN.

Someone takes the time to invest a few hours into helping a fellow
entrepreneur with a particular strength they have.

Word gets out, and it turns out that the specific help they gave is directly
related to the purpose of their recently launched startup.

This could be either a brilliant PR coup, or just genuine good-neighbourliness
coming home to roost.

I love it when a plan comes together.

~~~
aberkowitz
Why can't it be both?

~~~
marcamillion
Well...because it's not really 'genuine' if it was a PR stunt.

Or rather, the motives wouldn't have been 'pure', as in strictly from the
point of view of, I-want-to-help-out-another-guy-type-of-pure.

~~~
fireitup
Well, I had no idea Shereef would post this. But I'm very grateful. I think
it's a very pay-it-forward sort of mentality that sits well with everyone in
the HN community, everyone who believes information should be free and wants
to see others with great ideas do really well. Honestly, if you check out
BetterMeans.com, you'll want to help them out, too - without question.

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aiurtourist
This sounds like a business idea: Let people upload an image, URL, or copy,
and charge for reviewing: $n for a five minute lookover, $m for an hour.
Editors reply with an updated draft and visual diff of changes.

~~~
grigy
A few days ago I ran into a similar service. It's free, though you have to
review others sites: <http://feedbackroulette.com/>

~~~
aiurtourist
Not quite what I mean, but that's ok :)

With Feedback Roulette, every submitter is also a reviewer. "Communal review."

With the paid editorial service, submitters only pay pre-authorized editors.

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mwbiz
Bloggergirl did a fantastic job on these slides. It is amazing that she took
the time to go through the site in so much detail. Thanks for sharing the
slides as this is good advice for anyone.

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pclark
I would pay for someone to review <http://readness.com> and produce slides
with feedback on the messaging, how awesome.

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fuzzythinker
I think the review serves as a great guideline for all currently yet-to-launch
sites and items to address/review for launch ones.

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tumpak
I read it ! thank you for your efforts in helping the original posts ! says a
lot about you.

