
Scanadu to shut down support for its Scout device and customers are mad - matco11
https://techcrunch.com/2016/12/13/fda-orders-scanadu-to-shut-down-support-for-its-scout-device-and-customers-are-mad/
======
smoyer
Property rights are pretty ambiguous when a device purchased by a consumer
requires a backend service and/or is managed by an outside company. Yhe
consumer has no control and while they might own the hardware they have no
guarantee of it's continued utility. Companies claiming DCMA violations
against those who choose to alter their devices also limits their effective
ownership. I personally avoid buying devices like this in the first place.

I do however think this company should be put out of business as they clearly
misled their backers. Is there any information on how many of these wer sold?
The device certainly doesn't look like it cost anywhere near $199 to
manufacture. And if there enough people interested in hacking the device to do
a clean-room reverse-engineering project it looks like it would be a fun
little project.

Is anyone who owns one of these willing to loan it out for a while? They might
also become cheap on eBay next May.

EDIT: As I've thought about this a bit more, why not push a firmware update
for your users that allows the device to collect the information as a fitness
device? Surely if a machine in the local mall can take my blood pressure
without a technician monitoring it, you can own a scout that provides
reasonably accurate measurements?

~~~
TeMPOraL
Yeah, I have the same rule of thumb right now - if it's cloud-dependent, steer
clear. Especially if the device _should_ presumably be partially or fully
functional off-line, but isn't, because "cloud powah!" (in reality, because of
the shitty business model that's basically "Hardware as a Service" \+ possibly
data selling).

> _The device certainly doesn 't look like it cost anywhere near $199 to
> manufacture._

I can imagine it costing that much in very small batches, if it uses somewhat
decent sensors. I can imagine $199 would be the cost of making a somewhat
decent DIY version. I couldn't find any teardown though, and I'm pretty
interested what sensors are they using, and if they're any better than the
usual crap installed in fitness devices.

~~~
smoyer
I spent the first 20 years of my career as an embedded systems engineer and
the most expensive parts were generally the case and power supply. For devices
with specialized sensors, they generally dominated the costs. I think you're
right - it's the sensors that matter. I don't think $199 will buy you a
laboratory grade sensor though.

If we're going to make OSS firmware for this (and what's "firmware" now that
everything is FLASH?), creating a tear-down will be the first step. Anyone
willing to loan one of these to TeMPOraL or me? If you're capable of doing it
yourself, could you create a tear-down?

~~~
tyingq
Info about the hardware is somewhat difficult to track down..

 _" The device runs the 32-bit version of Micrium RTOS (real time operating
system). Under the hood, CNX Software says the layout seems somewhat similar
to the Laird Technology BL600 and RFDigital RFD51822 modules, both based on
Nordic nRF51822, an SoC with Cortex M0 CPU, 256kB flash, 16kB RAM, and a
2.4GHz Bluetooth low energy transceiver."_[1]

[1] [http://www.tgdaily.com/hardware-features/72028-video-
scanadu...](http://www.tgdaily.com/hardware-features/72028-video-scanadu-
scout-is-a-medical-tricorder-for-android-and-ios)

~~~
TeMPOraL
So a standard BLE platform. But the most interesting information - sensors
used - is unfortunately missing.

~~~
tyingq
Not what you were looking for, but indicative that sensors were a key issue.

[https://www.scanadu.com/blog/making-headway-with-the-
scanadu...](https://www.scanadu.com/blog/making-headway-with-the-scanadu-
scout)

------
camus2
To people who funded this, why ? There are some established products already
on that market, why buy into a crowdfunding campaign when you can buy the same
thing from established vendors ? why take the risk ? reminds me all these
drone campaigns (like Zano and co), you can go on the internet, buy a drone,
and even send it back if it doesn't work properly, if you buy it from Amazon
or Ebay. With crowd funding you'll pay then wait years to get your products if
it ever comes and by the time it is there you can get the exact same product,
even cheaper from honest vendors. I don't understand why people choose to bear
all the risk without some form of compensation. But I'd like to understand.
I'm not talking about indie video games or an music album that needs funding,
but crowd funding tech products in general.

~~~
semi-extrinsic
The best is when Chinese copies of your crowdfunded product are available for
1/5th the price _before shipping date of crowdfunded product_. It's happened
numerous times, e.g. with
[http://get.pressybutton.com](http://get.pressybutton.com) IIRC.

~~~
GavinMcG
So if I want to have a device without doing all the work of getting it built,
I can just put together a Kickstarter and then refund everyone once the
knockoff is on the market?

~~~
pbhjpbhj
Or buy the clones from the copier at the lower price, pass them on to your
backers and profit!

What could possibly go wrong!?!

Or - product-ception - create a product, have it ready to sell, Kickstarter it
at a higher price; be both sides of the market.

~~~
ansgri
_create a product, have it ready to sell, Kickstarter it at a higher price; be
both sides of the market._

This is what successful research groups do: get an industrial customer, invent
some tech in the process (but you won't have neither time nor desire to do the
boring work of academic writing), and when the project is complete, get some
funding for the results you already have. Everybody's happy, just don't forget
to negotiate rights to retain the basic (not application-specific) technology.

------
JohnJamesRambo
What is the FDA's problem with it? I feel like with this sort of thing and the
23andme.com issue that the FDA is being too restrictive about things that
really shouldn't even be under their jurisdiction in the first place. For
drugs, stringent testing and regulations is great, but how is someone going to
harm themselves by knowing things about their own genome or recording things
like their own body temperature and heart rate?

~~~
camus2
The FDA thing is an excuse. The FDA didn't shut down their product, they are
lying.

~~~
wyager
The GP's question is valid, though. Why does the FDA insist on shutting down
or restricting services like 23AndMe when the worst case scenario for a
service failure is that you get a false positive on a disease risk indicator
(for which you're going to have to go to a real doctor to confirm anyway) or
you think you're 1/8th Irish when you're actually 1/8th Welsh?

~~~
jmcdiesel
The FDA's claim to jurisdiction (which I feel is BS) ... is that 23&me were
providing "medical advice" or "diagnoses" by saying that you share genomes
linked to x percent chance of Y ...

~~~
deeth_starr_v
Am I missing something? 23&me were forced to validate their service with the
FDA. They did and got passed. So they proved that their medical diagnosis are
accurate.

I don't understand the hating on the FDA. It's better than having full-time
quackery going on.

Edit: Here's an example. 23&Me tells you you're going to develop Alzheimer's.
There's no test for that (before it develops), so you can't go to a doctor to
validate it. Beyond the mental pain of living with this for years it's
reasonable to assume some people would end their lives rather than be a burden
to loved ones. But if they fucked up with their analysis and no one forced
them to prove it?

Edit2: Also, exempt 23&me from FDA regulation? Why should your lab be
regulated either? This isn't just a slippery-slope argument. I don't
understand the argument to exempt 23&me.

~~~
jmcdiesel
Because 23&me are not providing a medical diagnoses. They never were. They are
giving you what they calculate as your chances to to carry or possibly have or
develop health issues based on their database of other people's dna ... they
are showing statistical similarities and never claim to make diagnosis.. What
does the FDA have to do with statistical analysis?

~~~
drewgross
To most people, there is no difference between "your chances to to carry or
possibly have or develop health issues" and a diagnosis. Sure, I suppose I can
see some small technicality that makes them different, but really, the way you
react to either is about the same, which makes them about the same.

------
pboutros
This is exactly why firms that build medical devices need to be fully
transparent about what they're actually building in the eyes of the law, and
what regulatory hurdles it must overcome before being being able to do the
things people are likely to assume it can.

~~~
ars
I think people would be fine with shutting down the study - but why remote
shut down the devices? That's going too far.

The are passive devices, not active. They don't need much regulatory oversight
if you don't use the data for anything medical.

------
TideP
I diligently read all the comments and besides all the good and superbly clear
points made I have to say that the strongest is that Scanadu has, for a
certain extend, mislead its backers to pay $199 to provide them with big
health data, something that they would have paid for using the Mechanical Turk
platform. In the end, they clearly scammed myself and other people out of
their money and data.

------
Spooky23
My rule: no cloud service dependent devices >$50.

Exceptions are companies like Apple and maybe Microsoft that are capable of
supporting the device for a lifecycle. Obviously Google is out.

~~~
lighthazard
Why is Google out? Have any of their cloud service devices been put to
pasture?

~~~
pikzen
You could consider that Alphabet buying Nest and them shutting down all
service was in a way Google stopping operations on that.

But I believe that is mostly related to the unending list of services they
have stopped. Code, Reader, or even APIs and libraries they stop without a
single warning ( _cough cough_ angular v1.x).

Seriously, the list is big.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Discontinued_Google_s...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Discontinued_Google_services)

------
siculars
I got the email from them. It said "cease to function." And so, I wrote them
to ask what that means. They hit me with a generic:

Dear,

Thank you for supporting our crowdfunding campaign for the Scanadu Scout®
investigational device on Indiegogo.

When we started developing the Scanadu Scout®, we knew there was a great deal
of work ahead of us. The Scanadu Scout® was a first of its kind, and we remain
committed to bringing innovative technologies to consumers.

Through this journey, we have collected an enormous amount of data over the
past two years, which will inform the development of future products. We are
now turning our attention towards future products. We look forward to sharing
more on the new opportunities we’ve decided to pursue in the upcoming months.

Regards,

Scanadu Team

www.scanadu.com

Scanadu Inc, 1196 Borregas Avenue, Ste 200, Sunnyvale, CA 94089

And this, of course, is why you have to be very careful before investing in
Indigogo/Kickstarter projects. Also, why I won't use a fitbit. Anyone know how
to intercept fitbit data?

------
josephpmay
Couldn't tell they end the trial and release open-source sorftware for the
device that people can use at their own risk?

~~~
taneq
> From the beginning of the campaign, this was an investigational device that
> was part of a study which has now reached its endpoint with data collection
> for the study ending in November 2016,” a Scanadu spokesperson told
> TechCrunch. “FDA regulations require that all investigational studies be
> brought to closure and their respective devices be deactivated. As a result,
> we will deactivate the Scanadu Scout® devices by May 15, 2017.

I'd guess it's considered a safety measure - even if it's something innocuous-
seeming, any 'medical device' could end up with peoples' lives depending on
it. It's better for it to stop working entirely than to appear to keep working
if it's not reliable.

~~~
manquer
Well should it not have been clear in their campaign and communication from
day ONE ? Why charge the user that much then? Can i get a refund now ? why con
backers to pay for selling their data and $199 on top of that for just 18month
"study"?

------
taylorhou
@temporal @smoyer I'll happily lend mine. PM me to coordinate or my username
at Gmail. I did just google image search the scout and the version I have must
be one of the earliest batches

------
Fnoord
This is why the right to be forgotten is important. It was a mistake to grant
these people your personal data, but at the very least you can make them
delete your personal data.

