

Ask HN: Where have all the coders gone? - bpick

I have been spending months trying to track down the coder of my dreams - the one Seth Godin is always talking about.<p>You know what I mean - results oriented, and gives a personal touch to every line.  Especially someone who's starting out and really loves tearing it up.  Perhaps I'm just looking in the wrong places?<p>If you think you know someone like this, would you ask them to drop the rest of us non coders a line.<p>As for me, an email to nbrendanpickering@gmail.com will work just fine.
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boskone
Does anyone have any idea on how "hard" it is to create software? The toll on
a person who is "tearing it up", without break, for a year. Oh, and not for
their direct benefit?

You are seeking a person in the upper percentile of intelligence, fluent in a
specialized skill set and asking them to pull off some solo Death March that
should require 5-10 people minimum, and for what, to be the "coder" while the
idea man is running around with half-cent business cards with CEO in front of
their name.

Assume this person _is_ this smart, maybe even smarter than you, most likely
he too has realized its easier to be the idea man than to be the guy who has
to do all the work.

Ergo the world is stuffed with idea men and suffers a dearth of doers.

~~~
notauser
I agree with your conclusions but not your reasoning.

It's certainly hard to write software, but I don't agree that writing software
is harder than the non-technical work for a start up. Programming is
deterministic (for a smart enough person) in that effort goes in and software
comes out.

Sales, marketing and PR is highly non-deterministic and getting it right only
looks easy in retrospect. Hours and hours of effort goes in, and you might get
back magic or horse manure regardless of how good you are - although there are
people who have a decent average at obtaining magic.

The reason I agree with you however is that a lot of the 'idea men' pitching
programmers are no better at the required non-technical disciplines than a
blind man navigating a maze on a moonlit night with a bag over their head
after a drinking session.

I suppose the only way you can tell if a prospective partner is good is to
sell if they can sell something - and if they can sell you on working with
them that test is passed. Self selection in action!

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mahmud
I think you should post a job offer. Nice sentiments are appreciated, of
course, but people actually might want to know about you first and what you
want done. Otherwise your post has plenty of warm feelings and zero
information, as it is.

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Maro
I hate this "rockstar coder" thing. Whenever I see a job offer where they're
looking for a "rockstar coder" I'm automatically repulsed, I always think the
company is run by 2x year old fanboys who believe everything they read.

Who describes themselves as a "rockstar coder"? If you're young and realistic
about it, you can't have enough experience to tell. Most good experienced
programmers I know are modest people and would never describe themselves as
"rockstars" and would never apply to such an offer.

This seems to be a way to get "arrogant coders" to apply...

~~~
Maro
If you're looking to hire a good programmer, think of what good means to you
and what specific skills your project needs and write them down. Writing
"rockstar programmer wanted" is a hint that you can't even do that (instead
you're pushing hype-speak), which sets off alarm bells. Also, at the end of
the offer you can write something like: if this sounds interesting to you but
you don't exactly fit the bill, you can still apply, but also attach an
explanation why you're interested and why we should be interested in you.

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hvs
Hmm, "just starting out," "loves tearing it up," and "results oriented." So
you want someone young that you can work to death and not pay very much? What
exactly are you offering that would make such a person want to work for you?
Whatever Seth Godin is telling you, we developers are people that are
motivated by more than developing code for free so that business people can
get rich. Maybe you can't find these great developers because they don't think
you offer them anything that they couldn't get from every other nontechnical
person that just wants to exploit them. I don't see one thing in your post
that suggests that you do.

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adinobro
I don't know about other programmers but I got out of the game. I still
program for myself but I got sick of people asking me for miracles. I was to
make them happen but it drained me every time and was consuming my life. The
other programmers had a more balanced view (corporate programmers) and didn't
think about programming outside of office hours but I couldn't do that. I
tried working for a couple of startups but they all failed so I decided to
change industries. Programing is essentially problem solving and problem
solving can be used almost anywhere. I still program on my own projects but
not during work hours and to be honest it feels great.

~~~
plinkplonk
"but I got out of the game."

So what do you do these days, if it is ok to ask?

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dryicerx
Aah, the elusive _rockstar_ coder.

I would suggest you rewording when looking for a coder as in your case:
explain briefly what is expected of them, what they would be doing, the
technologies/languages in use. If those are too specific or have not decided
yet, then you're looking for a technical co-founder instead of a coder.

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ajborley
We're hiding from you! Check behind the couch

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petercooper
There are loads. They want lots of money, no management bullshit, and respect
- otherwise they'll just go do their own thing.

~~~
chipmunkninja
"I'm looking for a rockstar coder who can solve all of my problems, do all the
graphics design and layout, magically take my half-cooked idea work in a
perfectly scalable and performant way in multiple natural languages in only 80
hours per week for 10 weeks. And will be thrilled with the 25$ an hour I'm
willing to pay him/her".

I grow weary of the above conversation (note it's not really ever much of a
conversation. I mostly just listen, nod, and then tell I was joking when I
said I was a programmer).

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alanthonyc
All the good ones are probably working on their own ideas.

~~~
notauser
Or full time for someone else - only a small number of the professional
programmers I know do 'out of hours' coding for fun or profit. The ones that
do tend to be restricted to a fairly narrow age range and are working on their
own things or with a well-trusted friend.

Despite the fact that I am running my own business I frequently get asked to
work on <an idea that is sometimes good but usually not interesting to me> by
<a person I have met once with no idea of how hard their concept actually is
to implement> who seem to be under the impression that because I can code I'd
be happy with a 5% equity stake and will jump right on it.

I take it as a compliment that they think highly of my abilities and try to be
helpful by trying to point them at people who are looking for work, suggesting
some ways they can make their pitch more credible (for example, committing to
the prospective programmer how many hours they will put into PR and sales
work), and resetting their expectations up to about 50% of equity.

Right now the tables are turned on me as I would love a good PR and sales
person to work with (not business admin - I'm good at that). But I need
someone who can fund themselves for 12 months and so that puts me firmly on
the wrong end of the supply/demand equation for once. The experience has given
me a lot more empathy with the B school grads out there looking for coders.

~~~
adrianwaj
developers looking for non-technical partners - now that area would be in
demand. The power shifts to the developer, but that would be a good thing for
the project. A site for this would be great - developers would never have to
take a project again that they don't like again (well that's a goal). One of
the logistics involved is geographical dispersion of founders: is that
acceptable, and how can it be overcome?

~~~
bpick
When do we get to work?

~~~
adrianwaj
when people pay you, and go into partnership with you. You are being paid for
your ideas and your skills. Is that what you mean?

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kikof
Ok. So you are a real coder looking for a real coder. 1 : Take no care to the
resumes. Do not let anyone filter postulants. 2 : Recieve yourself everyone 3
: You'll know in a matter of minutes if he's a real coder or no. Well, if
you're a Real Coder.

=> Anoying but small invest of your time. That pays.

~~~
chipmunkninja
Wait .... wat?

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GotToStartup
See, there is a fundamental problem with this. You, as a non coder, will NEVER
be able to tell who is and who isn't a "rock star". And odds are, your dream
coder will probably not want to work with you. Unless of course you're working
on something really cool with a bunch of other really smart coders.

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known
I am sorry to say this.

    
    
        Coding is no longer treated as adding value to the company.

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adrianwaj
linkedin or meetup.com is a good place to start. Otherwise try a local
software house, but they may not help much with requirements or take equity -
and you'll pay high prices, but at least you can meet physically and get the
ball rolling.

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herval
if you're looking for someone who's "starting out" and is "the dream coder" at
the same time, you're most likely looking in the wrong places indeed...

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tomjen2

      Long time passing.
      Girls picked them every one.
    

But seriously, these kinds of coders are very difficult to get your hands on,
you might want to go read some of Joel Spolsky's writtings on how to interview
programmers.

The basic problem, as you have found, is that the greatest programmers aren't
looking for a job, not even now during a recession, and certainly not with
you.

Standard advice involve networking, showing up at user groups, trade
conferences, et cetera.

These can take a long time to work however, so in your case I would take a
look at how to make your company more interesting for the type of people you
want to attract.

Try to look at your company as and outsider might do:

1)What would a great programmer love about the work? Because , as you might as
well face now, you are not going to get anybody really good really excited
about the prospect of maintaining an in house Java ERP system. You would have
a good chance to get one to work on a new system build in Clojure though.

2)How are your managers going to treat people? The old fashioned manager based
on the military/factory hierarchy or the new get out of the way so the people
can do awesome work while I watch their back politically?

3)This is something you might not have thought about, but do you really need
this type of person? They are way better technically, but Joe the coder is
going to be way easier to satisfy, employ, manage, keep around and replace.
You don't need the rangers to take Berlin, you need a lot of expendable barely
literate soldiers.

Anyway this is just a few things you might want to think about.

