
Ma’am, Your Burger Has Been Paid For - r0h1n
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/10/20/opinion/sunday/maam-your-burger-has-been-paid-for.html
======
e40
In the reddit thread for this same article, I found this the best comment:

[http://www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/elal2/have_you_ev...](http://www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/elal2/have_you_ever_picked_up_a_hitchhiker/c18z0z2)

A much better "pay it forward" story.

~~~
GuerraEarth
Read this reddit article. It is likely the best thing many of us will hear for
years. It's a life-changer.

~~~
Albuca
I read the whole thing as well. So much good in the world -- I hope it keeps
inspiring people to do the same =]

------
bsenftner
I suspect a carefully coordinated PR campaign for Chick-fil-A, as I've noticed
uncharacteristically, frequent positive references to them in unrelated news
items lately. I consume a lot of news, and noticing "fake" planted positive
references in tangentially related articles is par for the course for any
company that stepped in deep shit like they did. I suspect at least one of
these positive comments here to be a plant as well. If you think this is
paranoid, you don't know how our world works.

~~~
dictum
pg wrote about the art of carefully disguised PR campaigns:
[http://www.paulgraham.com/submarine.html](http://www.paulgraham.com/submarine.html)

~~~
gdubs
He also mentioned that they were never able to crack the New York Times :)

That was, however, some time ago.

~~~
jeorgun
Also, that Viaweb never made it to the New York Times doesn't mean that nobody
then did. Note the first sentence of the essay ;)

~~~
gdubs
Ha, great point! I had based my comment on memory.

Also, worth mentioning that while I don't want to be overly cynical, this
article _does_ sound like a brilliant PR campaign. Given the size of typical
PR budgets, you could afford a lot of free fast-food lunches for people.

------
DanBC
Naples has a "long standing tradition" of something called "suspended coffee".
([http://www.npr.org/blogs/thesalt/2013/04/24/178829301/eu-
emb...](http://www.npr.org/blogs/thesalt/2013/04/24/178829301/eu-embraces-
suspended-coffee-pay-it-forward-with-a-cup-of-joe))

------
jbrooksuk
Similar story here in the UK. I was paying for my McDonalds at the drive-thru
when for whatever reason I looked in my mirror and saw a young girl sat crying
in her car looking deeply depressed. I asked if I could pay whatever her meal,
did so, picked mine up and looking in the mirror I could see a genuine smile
appear.

I hope that if I cheered her up for even 2 seconds, she can see whatever
happened to make her cry isn't going to keep her stuck feeling down.

~~~
johnyello
Perhaps she was crying because she was about to have to eat a McDonald's?

Seriously, why the fuck would someone education enough to be on HN be eating
that fast food crap? If you really want a burger in the UK, go to Byrons.

~~~
nicholassmith
That'd be great if all the people in the UK actually lived in the
predominately Southern areas Byron has stores.

~~~
shrikant
..and if everyone could afford to pay 2x-4x the price of a McD's. And spend
3x-5x the amount of time sat around in a restaurant instead of grabbing and
going.

Yeesh, what a useless comment GP is.

------
csel
"Perhaps the largest outbreak of drive-through generosity occurred last
December at a Tim Hortons in Winnipeg, Manitoba, when 228 consecutive cars
paid it forward."

Damn you socialist Canada. You did it with your healthcare and now you are
doing it with your fast food too? :)

~~~
VLM
Its the maple syrup high

------
hxa7241
This is quite pointless because it essentially cancels out. To get a
cooperative structure you have to give away _surplus_ \-- that is, people with
more have to give it to people with less.

Yes, _redistribution_! That seems a dirty idea in a substantial part of USA
politics. So 'pay it forward' chains are a peculiar thing: they summon the
feeling of cooperation, in an acceptable way, without actually being
effectively cooperative.

~~~
corresation
_This is quite pointless because it essentially cancels out_

This is ultimately what makes this so bizarre -- in the end such a chain has a
single "benefactor", and then a number of what could best be described as
victims: People who become a part of this process because of social
obligation. Given that the people were already in line and obviously ready to
pay for their order, this is unwelcome generosity, and it takes advantage of
the law of reciprocity in many cultures.

This sounds really cynical, and I suppose it is, but I see nothing heart
warming about Western culture in these acts. If someone randomly paid for
other people's food, that is one thing, but what we're reading about now are
people obligating the people behind them to pay for the people behind them,
essentially trying to become a part of something -- the initiator -- for
little.

If I pull up to Tim Hortons and just want a coffee and a donut, having to
understand and then orchestrate the chain is not something I was looking for,
and in the end I've gained nothing.

~~~
garethadams
Which part of society is obligating a person to continue paying it forward?
Certainly not the previous customer, who has already driven off. And certainly
not the following customer, who (if you don't pay it forward) has no way of
knowing that you got your food for free.

In fact other than you, the only person who knows the situation is the
cashier, and they certainly aren't expecting meals to continue to be paid
forward - the articles on the topic always mention how surprised they are when
it happens. And to be honest I don't understand your social compass if being
judged by a random restaurant cashier is that big a burden on your conscience.

~~~
corresation
_And to be honest I don 't understand your social compass if being judged by a
random restaurant cashier is that big a burden on your conscience._

My moral compass is not dictated by the presence of witnesses. If I'm at a
park and no one is there to witness it, I still dispose of trash properly. I
pick up after my dog without scurrilously looking around for other people.

One's "moral compass" should be internal, and might also be considered like
karma. Most people do things because they believe it is right, not because
they are being judged (though there _are_ those people in this world, and they
are the ones who dent and run and leave a big doggy steamer cooking in your
yard). And in Western society one of the biggest burdens you can drop on
someone is the sense of reciprocity.

~~~
garethadams
Ok, that makes a lot of sense, but then I don't understand what you mean by
"people obligating the people behind them to pay for the people behind them".

If your moral compass is based on what you believe internally, I don't see how
you are being obliged to do something by someone else if that person has no
knowledge of whether you did it or not.

------
001sky
_The expression was popularized by the best-selling novel “Pay It Forward” ...
The protagonist does three good deeds and asks the beneficiaries to do three
good deeds and so on._

The origins of this term are somewhat different, and worth noting. The normal
mode of reciporocity is to 'pay it back'. However, there are certain times
when this would be physically impossible. This is the origin of 'pay it
forward'. It results from the _humble_ notion: I can never pay it _back_ , so
I will pay it _forward_. It has nothing to do with scaling (3x), nor
contingency (i did this for you, now you do this...etc). It is a response to
an actual act of kindness or generosity that precisely lacks such a
contingency (most usually because you will never interact with the person that
helped you out, ever again). It would have been nice for the NY Times piece to
note this correctly! Its just too bad that the actual understanding of the
term could not be promulgated through what is otherwise a good piece (likely
to be widely read).

~~~
cstejerean
"While confusing in the context of paying for the car behind you in a drive-
through, “pay it forward” means to repay a kindness by being kind to someone
else rather than the person who was kind to you."

The article didn't claim it had anything to do with 3x. That was simply
explaining the version in the movie, which did in fact popularize the term.

~~~
001sky
A proper definition of any term should not be consistent with its mis-use. The
term from the movie is a ~mis-use, and yet the term as elsewhwere defined (by
your quote) is consistent with the mis-use. Its not technically 'false', but
it suffers from an 'error of omission', for not having the correct level of
granularity (to avoid confusion).

------
fredsanford
It's funny how this positive article with a feel good story brings out the
negativity at hnews.

Sometimes, reading stuff here just makes me go WTF???

~~~
jval
I think a lot of people are on autopilot and just vote up negative stuff.

I think it has something to do with the fact that a lot of people here must be
in a low mood because they're starting their own business and struggling, or
hating their current job and wanting to do a startup.. I don't know. Just a
hypothesis.

Could also have something to do with the natural skepticism of a lot of smart
people who are used to poking holes in theories/systems/stories. All this is
just conjecture of course but we should do a survey of some kind.

~~~
bnegreve
> _[..] a lot of people here must be in a low mood because they 're starting
> their own business and struggling, or hating their current job and wanting
> to do a startup.._

You're the one being cynical... It's just a bias, people don't comment if the
only thing they have to say is "oh that's great".

~~~
jval
I disagree... there are a lot of things you can say other than just 'oh that's
great'. This comment thread is a perfect example of that. It is an article
about people paying it forward in fast food lines (a lovely story about
everyday kindness) and the top voted comment is about how much someone hates
Chick-Fil-A.

Not every interesting opinion has to be a negative one, and not every
criticism needs to be posed in a really nasty way. Most members of the HN
community have been pointing out how the quality of comments on HN has
degenerated of late, I was just thinking out aloud rather than passing
judgment on people who come and comment here.

------
edw519
"Pay it forward." THIS is why I'm a programmer.

Sure, I'm a professional and I earn quite well, but any customer I've ever had
will tell you that the value they received from me far exceeded what it cost
them.

Delivering customer value. That's it for me. I'm really much less interested
in all the other things we talk about here: languages, algorithms, hacks,
investments, technology, etc. I'd rather hack my customers' problems than my
own.

Why do I consider this paying if forward? Because of everyone who ever helped
me get where I am: teachers, mentors, customers, peers, but mostly my parents
and grandparents who all had difficult lives and made great sacrifices. They
never had the opportunities I have now, a relatively easy life and the ability
to turn nothing into something for someone else. I can't (literally) pay them
back any more, but I can by paying it forward to others.

I always felt this way but never knew how to verbalize it until I heard the
phrase "Pay it Forward". Thanks. Great HN post.

~~~
marcoperuano
My mom is a single mother who worked really hard to give my brother, sister,
and me what we have today. Even now she's still working in some awful factory
to pay the bills. While I'm in some office making much more with less stress.
Its crazy an depressing. So, I'm paying it back I guess. I help her with a
good chunk of her bills. I hope one day I have enough income to pay everything
for her, it'll be her reward for being a great parent. That day is coming
soon!! www.marcoledesma.com

------
davidw
Makes you think about how much fast food is consumed in the US. I like a
McBurger myself once in a while, but people eat altogether too much of that
junk over there.

Nice article though: people in the US, especially outside the big cities, are
often very kind. My Italian wife is always pleasantly surprised by this when
we're there.

~~~
adhipg
I think that's true worldwide. People are often much kinder and care about
their community more outside the bigger cities.

~~~
vidarh
I don't think people are all that much kinder and care more about their
community overall, but rather big cities puts people into "survival mode" a
lot, where we are trying to cope with too many people around.

It'd be exhausting to acknowledge everyone we pass, much less great them in a
friendly way. It'd be exhausting if everyone asked you if you need help (and
so _too few_ end up doing it instead) just because it's obvious you're having
a bad day.

And sheer numbers means running into the occasional people trying to scam you
etc. is much more likely, and another reason for people to be more sceptical
of your motivations etc.

Get past the shields people put up to cope with this, and there's plenty of
kindness to find in big cities too.

------
alecsmart1
Am curious how this works. What amount do you pay forward or do you swipe your
credit card for an amount?

~~~
shrikant
When you're picking up your order at a drive-through, typically the person
behind you had already placed their order.

You then just ask for your bill to include theirs as well. Or if you're part
of a chain then just state that you'd like to pay their bill instead.

~~~
rickyc091
I was always curious as to how this worked. Thanks for clarifying it.

------
mzahir
This reminds me of Jonathan's card, which was shortly exploited as an
'experiment' and ultimately frozen by Starbucks

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2877779](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2877779)

~~~
lotharbot
Jonathan's Card had one key characteristic that made it exploitable (even if
Sam hadn't been able to transfer money off of it): there was a reliable way of
knowing how much money was on the card, and therefore a reliable way of
choosing when to spend (or siphon) money from the card to get high value. I'm
not aware of a reliable way of knowing that the car in front of you is "paying
it forward".

That makes me curious: is it possible to exploit by starting a pay-it-forward
chain and then circling back around with a bigger order? Would there be a
particular number of cars or time of day or order size that would maximize the
likelihood of getting your final order paid for, and would it have a positive
expectation when accounting for the initial outlay and the time commitment?

[Note that I am not advocating actually trying this; I'm satisfied with it as
a thought experiment.]

------
danso
This happened with Starbucks years ago. At the time, people accused Starbucks
of staging it. Recently, Starbucks has been making "pay it forward" be a
official promotion:

[http://seattletimes.com/html/localnews/2004084452_webstarbuc...](http://seattletimes.com/html/localnews/2004084452_webstarbucks20m.html)

------
webhat
I thought the gesture was great, although I couldn't help wondering if it's an
act of kindness to give away _fast food_ in a nation that is struggling with
obesity.

Could just be me.

~~~
jongold
It's the thought that counts, but from a European perspective it's a bizarre
thought nonetheless. Quaint and cute and gross all at the same time.

------
lmm
Surprised the article didn't mention the original source of the expression -
sci-fi author Robert Heinlein, over 50 years ago.

------
JoshGlazebrook
I've thought about doing this myself at Starbucks. But then I wonder if the
person behind me is a car packed full of kids and their parents have rung up
$25+ of frappuccinos. As I don't want the awkwardness of asking the drive thru
barista the total cost of what the person behind me ordered, I haven't
attempted it yet.

------
brianbreslin
I'm guessing by the time I get to the window to pay, they have already taken
the person behind me's order, and know the expected price right?

Sometimes I wish I had the option of tipping the fast food joint employees, as
I think it would make them happier. Starbucks too, if you pay with credit card
(as we are increasingly doing so), then we don't have that option anymore.

To add to the last point, I'd like to be able to give money direct to the
employees, as I feel they wouldn't get a fair piece of it if the company was
allowed to disburse it.

------
ronilan
Happend to us on the San Mateo Bridge (westbound) a couple of years back. We
felt special but did not pay it forward. Instead, told the lady at the booth
to consider the fee a tip :)

------
renang
And what is the point exactly?

What good does to pay a meal for a person that could very much be paying their
own meal? They can pay hundreds of dollars for a car, tens of dollars for a
full tank of gasoline, yet they can't pay for a 4 dollars Big Mac?

If I had no money the last place for spending it would be on a fast-food
place. There is much more you can do with 4 dollars. You can get better and
healthier food.

So, instead why not help people who actually can't afford a Big Mac?

~~~
pbhjpbhj
> _They can pay hundreds of dollars for a car, tens of dollars for a full tank
> of gasoline, yet they can 't pay for a 4 dollars Big Mac?_ //

I've been in this situation. We need a car for work and so the outlay on the
car and the gas is required if we want to earn money with the car. We can't
however afford to eat at McDo' so you wouldn't find us in the line [also I
disprove of drive-through].

------
drcode
Of course, the only reason this works is that it is not socially acceptable to
break the chain in this circumstance. For instance, if there was a tip/charity
jar (and I'm guessing there isn't in the cases this works) I would simply put
my surplus into the tip jar and break the chain, because I find this idea
annoying. If there is no tip jar, I would have no choice but to continue the
chain.

------
ck2
How about paying for food for the homeless instead?

Someone in a car at a fast food place is probably well off enough to afford
the car, maintenance, gas, etc.

~~~
IvyMike
So the US is pretty demographically heterogeneous. Instead of a "we're all in
this together" attitude like they have in (for example) Iceland, a lot of
people here have a "us v. them" attitude. I think a lot of this is fueled by
conscious or subconscious racism.

I believe this is why we have trouble passing a lot of social welfare
programs, education reform, healthcare, etc. You hear a lot of complaints that
boil down to "THEY will abuse the system" meaning whoever the speaker thinks
is undesirable.

And that's why people like the "pay it forward in the drive-thru" style
charity: the people you are helping are more likely to be just like you.

~~~
ck2
That's a pretty sad but true realization.

------
dmdeller
Reminds me of a story from Japan about a fly-by-night café based on a similar
idea: in addition to paying for the person after you, you would choose what
food they would receive as well. [http://www.cabel.name/2009/09/kashiwa-
mystery-cafe.html](http://www.cabel.name/2009/09/kashiwa-mystery-cafe.html)

------
jodrellblank
That's a curious effect. Consider:

Situation 1) You drive up to pay for your food, you pay the price you were
expecting, you leave with the same mood you arrived with.

Situation 2) You drive up to pay for your food, you find the person ahead has
paid for you, you pay nothing, you leave happier because someone has been kind
to you and you get a free lunch.

Situation 3) You drive up to pay for your food, and you find the person ahead
has paid for you. You feel happier because someone has been kind to you, and
in turn you pay for the person behind you. You pay an unexpected amount,
possibly more than your own food cost. Now you leave with a lunch you may as
well have paid for, but you leave happier.

In situation 2, the free lunch looks like the thing that makes you happier.

In situation 3, you might _pay more than your lunch price_ and yet _still_
leave happier.

In situation 3, everyone in the chain has gone to get some lunch, got some
lunch, paid for some lunch ... and left happier.

And yet, if you tried to set it up to work this way - either the drive thru
had a rule where you always paid for the person behind you (and if nobody was
there you paid a random amount, or the average price of the previous N
orders), or if there was a social expectation of same (i.e. like tipping,
unwritten but obligatory), then I don't think it would work. In fact, going
there _expecting_ to pay an unknown amount seems like it would make me feel
worse; and going there _expecting_ a 'free' meal would tend to make me either
order much more (it's free) or feel obliged to order less (someone else is
paying), but either way be less comfortable about the whole deal.

It's not surprising to me that in the small scale, receiving kindness and/or
doing something kind feels good. But it is surprising that on a wider scale,
one system where everyone orders/pays/eats has minimal effect on mood and
another where everyone orders/pays/eats results in a chain of tens of people
feeling happier. (Side questions: It's easy for the article to present this as
a chain of happiness, but how many people in the chains of tens of cars _didn
't_ feel happier, and felt indifferent? And how many felt _worse_ yet obliged
to participate to avoid looking stingy?)

My guess is that if it expands to be a social norm, it will hit the same kind
of backlash as tipping does - arguments about whether taking your food and not
paying for the people behind makes you a horrible person, or whether it's okay
to pay for just the price of your meal for the people behind / whether you
should be willing to pay 10% or 20% more than your meal, or whether if you're
paying a random price because there's no car behind you, is it okay for the
restaurant to come to depend on pocketing the difference for its profits.

Could we systematise the kindness/happiness effect without ruining it?

~~~
Amadou
_Could we systematise the kindness /happiness effect without ruining it?_

Kindness by definition isn't kindness if it is not voluntary.

I think the best you can hope for are social systems that don't reward
cruelty.

~~~
jodrellblank
What definition? Why not?

Unkindness and cruelty still exist if they are built into systems, don't they?

~~~
fastball
Well, we seem to be talking about kindness in regards to how it makes you
feel.

Kindness does not work if it is forced. You can force people to do "kind"
things, but that won't make them happy. Likewise, when we have unkindness
built into systems, it doesn't necessarily make people feel bad, because
they're being forced to do it (or at least, not as bad).

~~~
leto
Yes. I think the key here is that it probably makes us happier to see two
choices and choose the kinder, rather than simply living in a kindness-
enforced society. At least for me, I derive a lot of happiness simply from my
sense of agency, and choosing to be an agent of good will is powerful.

------
pjbrunet
Trickle-Back economics?

I think this is cool but there's more charitable ways to go vs. buying the
rear-view clunker a milk shake.

------
adamnemecek
Wow, this almost makes Chick-fil-A seem like a non-bigoted 21th century
hospitality establishment. Only almost though.

~~~
jmduke
Chick-fil-A employees are the most polite out of all the fast-food
establishments I've frequented. The tables are always spotless, and the food
is (I'll concede, this is subjective) damn good.

I don't think it's particularly difficult to separate a few bigoted executives
from the totality of the company.

~~~
wyclif
I agree. I rarely visit Chick-fil-A, but over the summer I had to go to a
conference in NC and a group of us drove down from the Northeast, urban US. We
stopped at one of their locations for lunch and there were about 8-10 of us so
we had to push some tables together to extend a booth and make enough room for
everyone. At around the mid-point of our meal, a middle-aged female employee
came to our table, smiled, and asked us if we would like more napkins and if
we needed our drinks refilled.

Now, maybe I'm just a cynical Yankee, but I would say that kind of treatment
is _extremely rare_ in fast food joints where I'm from. All employees I've
ever encountered are well trained, professional, and super-polite (but not in
an overbearing way).

------
mrcactu5
this almost cancel's out the societal effects of the (still active) KKK.

