
Booth Babes, Street Clothes, and GDC: Thanks But You sort of Made It Worse - jchrisa
http://blog.katylevinson.com/booth-babes-street-clothes-and-gdc-thanks-but-you-sort-of-made-it-worse/
======
bluehat
Hey guys, Katy here, just wanted to thank everybody for the support and super
insightful feedback. I will continue to edit the post and post here with
clarifications, mostly after work hours :)

And yes, I know everybody's probably sick of gender issues, and that's why I
almost didn't bring it up, but I hoped it would be a chance for a good civil
discussion, and I'm really glad to see it turning into that. Hopefully someday
soon everything can be awesome, we'll never have occasion to talk about this
garbage again, and we can all go back to nerding. I can't tell you how much I
am looking forward to that day.

But, seriously, the civility and respect here have totally blown me away.
Really proud to be a part of this community. Thanks everybody, you give a lady
hope!

~~~
mnicole
Never stop blogging about it, please. Did you see the post the other day from
the woman who works at Game Informer ([http://meagan-
marie.tumblr.com/post/46396481491/what-would-y...](http://meagan-
marie.tumblr.com/post/46396481491/what-would-you-do-if-you-werent-afraid))?
Her experience at PAX East was one thing, but her work stories were even
worse. I'd recommend it to everyone here.

~~~
bluehat
I read this with the chorus of Journey

"Don't stop, belieeeeeeving! Streetlight! People!"

------
mattmaroon
Wait, I don't get it. I'm at GDC. A very large portion (maybe even a majority)
of either gender is non-technical. It's an industry event so there are lots of
salespeople, hr, biz-dev, etc. I wouldn't assume a man I met here was a
developer.

There are some pretty obvious booth babes (the energy drink girls, ones with
swords, etc.) There are women who, while perhaps non-technical, legitimately
work for the companies they're hawking. I don't get the impression they're
hired guns, though I haven't done a survey.

Perhaps it's easy to say because I'm not a woman, but I think I'd feel less
uncomfortable here than anywhere else where I was outnumbered 10:1.

~~~
joezydeco
So GDC isn't the Game _Developer_ Conference? I thought E3 was for the
marketing and sales types.

~~~
CodeCube
E3 targets the consumer/sales end of the game market. GDC targets the
developer (in the general sense, designers, 3d modelers, etc.) ... so there
are marketing and sales types trying to sell developer tools (maya, perforce,
etc.)

~~~
mattmaroon
Yeah. It's more technical and less consumer than E3 for sure. So instead of
ads for games, you see ads for game development tools. The ecosystem is huge
now that there are multiple platforms (console, pc, mobile, web, etc.), ad
channels, payment methods, etc.

All of those tools are still b2b companies, and b2b software companies have
lots of non-technical people. Sales, support, execs, etc. I haven't done a
poll but I'd bet even here the non-technical people are at least 50%.

------
onemorepassword
Seems like a hard problem to solve.

Sending people to do product promotional is perfectly legitimate depending on
the type of event. Even if you weren't deliberately targeting a male audience
with attractive females (although I'm sure that was the case), odds are that
if you were recruiting for that kind of work 90% would be outgoing and
attractive young women. Just like recruiting programmers will get you 90%
geeky white males.

~~~
chc
Are PR people really 90% attractive young women? I would be very surprised to
find that out.

~~~
mtrimpe
While trying to learn how to sell I once tried to sell charity on the street
for a single day.

Already in that first day one of the less attractive, but probably more
skilled, co-workers told me that in most cases you're actually selling 'having
an attractive person be very friendly to me for a while.'

~~~
derleth
> I once tried to sell charity on the street for a single day.

This sentence intrigues me. Were you working for a specific charitable
organization or were you out there trying to sell one of the cardinal virtues
as an abstract concept?

> in most cases you're actually selling 'having an attractive person be very
> friendly to me for a while.'

This is true, and it has been rediscovered over and over again in many
industries in many ways. Some industries are really that and nothing else, and
they have long, honored, and storied traditions in some cultures (so
denigrating them means you're an ethnocentric swine, in case you missed my
hint).

~~~
mtrimpe
I don't know if it exists everywhere in the world, but this was basically an
organization that would run campaigns for specific charities.

One week you'd try to get people to donate to a child cancer charity and the
next to WWF and the sales company would get the first few months to half a
year of that person's donations.

------
jblz
If I'm understanding correctly, the author would prefer it if non-technical
female expo floor workers were scantily-clad so she would be less likely to be
assumed by other conference-goers to be non-technical herself..? I'm sorry,
but I find that pretty offensive.

I don't claim to know what it's like to be a woman in a heavily male-dominated
field (or just your de facto patriarchy, for that matter), but I also don't
assume anyone I'm talking to at a conference has any reason to believe I
possess any sort of prowess or authority without my convincing them of such
even while donning my geekiest T-shirts.

More importantly, I assume anyone representing a product or service at a show
is knowledgeable about its inner-workings until they give me some reason to
believe otherwise regardless of their gender or attire.

While I appreciate that it is often difficult dealing with misogyny at
conferences, I think it's unfair to lump a proper PR employee in with a model
in a Princess Leia slave bikini who knows nothing about the product.

~~~
danilocampos
> If I'm understanding correctly

You most certainly are not.

The author is simply pointing out that ending the booth babe situation isn't a
panacea. The real issue is the shortage of actual technical contributors who
are also women:

> Goodness knows, if I had the power to bring tons of other technical women at
> the conference that would be an optimal solution

~~~
bluehat
(I added that after he posted, because s/he brought up a good point.)

~~~
mmcnickle
Could you mark your edits in the article as such? It's making the discussion
here difficult to follow as people are referring to outdated versions.

~~~
bluehat
Done, edits are italics, thanks

------
obviouslygreen
Women were being very clearly, intentionally objectified with the "booth babe"
thing. Now, rather than something obnoxious and sexually overt, we have
something that I'd call far worse in its subtlety: Using women for _exactly
the same purpose_ but in a much more approachable, casual, and probably
effectively interactive way.

How did this happen? I seriously doubt it's because girls in bikinis stopped
being effective. But when you can't get away with sexualized advertisement
without being martyred, you're going to look for similarly effective marketing
that won't offend the people throwing the stones, and in my opinion they've
done exactly what we should have expected in this situation.

I'm not saying it's right or that women shouldn't expect to be treated as
equals. I am saying that the tech community (and several others) have tried
and are trying so hard to reject sex and sexuality and any application of it
that might possibly offend someone that we're finally making it worse. Before
it was just an obnoxious inability to be comfortable with ourselves. Now that
we've gotten to the point where everyone knows how prudish and
hyperconservative we are, they've also figured out how to keep marketing to us
effectively without offending our delicate sensibilities. And we're still
upset.

It's a shame that so many men have such a hard time conducting themselves well
in mixed professional company. It's also a shame that we are so utterly unable
to _be men and women_ without pigeonholing ourselves and harassing each other
over it. It's a sad situation.

~~~
stcredzero
_> we have something that I'd call far worse in its subtlety: Using women for
exactly the same purpose_

Let's get this straight: It's not a _sin_. _Objectification is just a
particular functional state._

There is only a problem when there is a systemic imbalance that either
consistently robs a particular group of agency. There is nothing inherently
wrong with objectification. When you are being a spokesperson, you are
voluntarily being objectified. You have basically taken on the role of an
information appliance -- one with a friendly face and engaging manner,
hopefully. This is fine. What would be wrong is if everyone treated you this
way depending on some trait, like your gender or race. (Which is what happens
when people assume female developers are paid shills or when people assume
that the females in the current context are just decorative.)

The notion that "Objectification = Sin" is onerous nonsense. Denizens of a
complex multicultural world need to turn on the brains and understand
functional implications. We should stop using labels and tribal knee-jerks.
Our new world is too complicated for those old heuristics.

~~~
obviouslygreen
I'm not sure if you're just adding your two cents, which is cool, or wherever
you're trying to suggest that I made or agree with the assertion that
objectification is a "sin." I do not, and never suggested as much, I simply
stated that it was clearly happening.

~~~
stcredzero
You can just assume I'm adding my two cents.

------
TheMagicHorsey
Beautiful people, both male and female, work well in sales positions because
they can draw you in by faking interest in you (the fake interest may be in
the form of a question, familiarity, body language, etc.)

A lot of people find it hard to resist sales pitches from attractive people.
Very few people can stay aloof of the social advances of attractive people.

Believe it or not, most companies with an attractive sales person, also have a
technical sales engineer on hand to talk to you once you are hooked. I used to
be a technical sales engineer, so I'm familiar with the hustle at the GDC. You
have the attractive woman pull people in, and then she stands around while the
engineers talk about the product. A lot of times the people have no interest
in the product, but sometimes someone who came for the girl stays to hear
about the product, and three months later is a client, because it turns out he
needs your software after all.

It sucks, but its just the way most males work.

I'm used to this hustle, that is why at trade shows I avoid eye contact with
the marketing/sales people and make a beeline directly for the
materials/people I'm interested in.

------
smoyer
Hmmm ... I'm not sure I can agree with the idea of dressing _more_ of the
booth babes in bikinis (seems like a step backwards), but I can understand the
need to be viewed as technical. And at a conference like GDC, it can be hard
for the guys to know who is technical and who isn't.

I propose the people that want to talk technical and be treated as "nerds" all
wear propeller beanies from now on. That way we'll be able to tell our fellow
hackers, and it will also root out those annoying fashion conscious nerds.

~~~
saidajigumi
> I'm not sure I can agree with the idea of dressing more of the booth babes
> in bikinis

I don't think that was OP's point, per se. It's that the bikini-clad "uniform"
tended to provide an automatic distinction between the women hired to staff
booths from the women attending the conference. Once that distinction was
removed an unfortunate bias and/or numbers game kicked in: attendees started
implicitly assuming "woman == hired help."

"Out of the frying pan and into the fire" has never been such a depressing
turn of phrase. :-P

~~~
skastel
Might be worth noting that even if a woman is there staffing a booth, that
doesn't disqualify them from being technically inclined.

~~~
saidajigumi
I'm quite aware of that, thanks. View that sentence as a verbal experiment
whilst trying to generalize around the hornet's nest my mind has accrued
around the phrase "booth babes."

------
gavanwoolery
Sex sells. Actually one of the more popular search terms associated with E3
was "booth babes." Are companies willing to sacrifice their "dignity" in order
to have their brand appear in more searches? Absolutely. Some of the most
visited sites on the internet are pornography sites. Lets not kid ourselves -
we were genetically designed to reproduce and value sexual attraction.

The problem is that every one treats women using their sexual attraction like
it is a bad thing (or it somehow undervalues their intelligence -- which it
does not; just because you value one thing does not mean you don't another). I
don't think there is any shame in it. We have been promoting products with
sexual appeal since the dawn of advertising. Everybody get off their high
horse already and accept that we are beasts of nature. :)

~~~
Tichy
I find it ironic if women fight against sexual attraction, effectively
depriving themselves of one of their powers. The same pattern can be seen in
lots of feminist positions, like deriding of housewives and thereby eroding
the privilege of being able to take time off for family.

------
jgj
Interesting read, but I have to say I'm a little put off by the conclusion

> [...] if I could have substituted them all for traditional booth babes, I
> would have done it in a heartbeat. Then I’d be free to have a great time
> being what I normally am at conferences: a curiosity, an anomaly, and an
> excitable nerd.

In my opinion, this trivializes what was, prior to its inclusion, a worthwhile
lament. The conclusion makes it sound as if the author is ultimately dismayed
not that she was dismissed as being unworthy of unadulterated engineer-speak,
but more so bothered by the fact that she was no longer the center of
attention and no longer unique. I'm sure in reality she cares much more about
being the former, but it was quite a shallow consummation to an otherwise
interesting piece.

~~~
originalcvk
I don't think that was the point of her statement. I think she was basically
saying "At least before, the booth babes were obvious, and other women were
assumed to be engineers who belonged there for their technical merits. Now,
companies are sending attractive, non-technical female product promoters and
others outside of the engineering field dressed in street clothes. Now, it is
harder to tell which women are engineers and which are PR/marketing/booth
babes/whatever." Seems a valid observation, though I think the real issue is
that women need to vet themselves as engineers at all, while it is assumed
that men at a conference are technical unless proven otherwise.

~~~
abraininavat
Yeah, but you could (1) wish all non-technical women went back to dressing
like hookers, or (2) wish there were more technical women at the conference or
that there was some other means to distinguish between techie and non-techie.

~~~
scott_s
Don't read too much into it. It was just a wry observation that something that
looks very much like progress actually made her life harder.

------
unethical_ban
I'm not familiar with this kind of event, but are there not usually badges
that designate different kinds of participants? The writer could have a
"attendee" badge, while advertisers and pushers would have a different
color/label on their badge.

------
saraid216
I wish we had more men who dressed up as booth babes. Don't we have enough
body builders in the game industry yet?

~~~
corin_
I just hired a split of both genders for the booth of a client at an event
next week. Not sure if it's a coincidence that no-one else around me thinks of
doing that and that I'm gay, or not..

~~~
iy56
Even if you hire a 50/50 split, it doesn't solve the problem because the ratio
in conference attendees is far from even. The conditional probabilities still
lead to the conclusion the article complains about.

~~~
corin_
Actually this event is a consumer tech exhibition where ~43% of the visitors
will be female - however the vast majority of hired, good-looking booth staff
will still be female.

(And my comment wasn't so much addressing the article as the GP comment which
said "I wish we had more men who dressed up as booth babes.")

------
pouletencolere
This problem isn't limited to conferences. I'm a woman and an engineer, and I
can't count the number of times I've met someone at a casual tech meetup and
the first thing out of their mouths was "You must be in PR." If you want to
make a small difference in making the world a nicer place, just ask me what I
do.

Booth babes and female sales reps are an interesting thing to discuss, but we
can't individually change the whole marketing culture. But we can individually
make the tech scene more inclusive just by being more sensitive about the way
we interact with other people. So please, please, please don't make
assumptions about me or start presumptuously explaining things to me without
asking what I do.

~~~
Tichy
Why is it such a problem, though? It is statistically unlikely that a woman is
developer, so people react accordingly. Does it really hurt so much to say
"no, I'm a developer"?

~~~
bluehat
Yes, it makes the very demographic people are trying to reach out to the most
feel very unwelcomed. It also means that many people never challenge their
assumptions and the lady doesn't get to correct them.

~~~
Tichy
I don't understand why it supposedly makes them feel unwelcome.

------
corysama
I can see how this could be a significant problem for women at GDC. I'm a guy
who has been going to GDC for over a decade. Pretty much every year there are
a few promoters using fairly aggressive "stealth" tactics to hook people
walking around the expo floor. As in, reasonably attractive woman in plain
clothes glances at your badge, waits a bit, then walks up quickly saying "Hey,
Corysama! Good to see you! Hey, what do you think about..." After a few of
these highly awkward encounters, the promoters have pretty effectively trained
many of the men to insta-dismiss reasonably attractive women in plain clothes
at the show.

------
JVIDEL
Maybe a compromise: instead of extremes like latex bikinis or just plain-
clothes why don't use a subtle corporate uniform? That way is not sexist nor
something that a non-employee might be wearing.

------
Tichy
Since in general few women are developers, I rather doubt the hiring of pr
women has any bearing on the situation. If it is really so frustrating, maybe
dressing accordingly would alleviate the pain - don't know, carry a Linux
book, a T- Shirt that says "no, I won't fix your computer", or something like
that.

~~~
bluehat
So I like the core of this idea, but since many gentlemen have been trained to
not stare at a girl's boobs and make a great point of keeping their eyes up,
I'm not sure if they'd read my shirt at all. It would probably have to be a
different piece of clothing

~~~
Tichy
Argh, tough problem indeed. Short of a tattoo on the forehead, maybe Google
Glasses or a geeky cap might work?

------
gavinlynch
I think I'm missing where the friction is in dropping your credentials? You
don't have to storm in and say, "Do you know who I am??!". Isn't it easy and
actually very polite to introduce yourself and what you do?

"Hi I'm {Name}, This topic fascinates me as I'm also a developer..."

And go from there?

~~~
ebiester
The issue is that as a man, you don't _have_ to. I know it seems weird, but as
men we have a blind spot -- there's a lot of bullshit we have to deal with,
but there's a lot of bullshit we don't have to deal with by the mere fact that
we'r male.

Women in technical fields (and nearly every woman in tech whom I've befriended
mentions this) get subtle cues that men don't even notice, because we're not
the target.

(Worst yet is that women have a tendency to do it to each other as well!)

It's as if you have the bozo bit dropped on you before you've spoken a word,
and you're continually fighting an uphill battle.

~~~
cs02rm0
Hmmn. It's just an odds game isn't it?

Our sales guy came to a conference and between the talks was desperate for
people to talk about something other than code, anything else. And everyone
seemed happy to oblige once aware.

Seems to me like these are just examples of people taking branch prediction
optimisations.

------
unreal37
It was an interesting blog post, that puts a new spin on the Booth Babe
controversy. Thanks for sharing. Saying that she was less uncomfortable with a
bunch of drunk guys yelling "take your shirt off!" at Defcon than at GDC is
saying something...

~~~
bluehat
When the guys were shouting, the rest of the crowd and security was frowning
at them. It was really easy to see this problem was something everybody knew
about, that good people had my back, and something we would solve shortly. It
wasn't fun at the time, but I knew it would be done soon.

GDC was a worse experience because it was profoundly isolating, and made me
feel like an outsider. Also, I don't see an easy solution coming to fix it,
which makes the situation feel more depressing.

------
davidroberts
Maybe wearing a beat-up t-shirt that says "Come to the Dark Side. We have
cookies. " would help establish the OP as an engineer.

~~~
Killah911
That's why I prefer to be an engineer, so I don't have to F#@$ing dress up
like anybody! "Dress up like an engineer", WTF is that supposed to be? Am I
the only person who is dumbfounded by this? We're all about judging worth
based on who someone is and what they've done... The only time I ever "dress
up" is when I have to deal with certain business types who are perfectly
comfortable with a monocle & a pocket watch.

~~~
potatolicious
> _"WTF is that supposed to be?"_

A de facto norm that arises out of any subculture. When you have enough people
all hanging around each other all the time, all kinds of things develop,
including fashion.

> _"We're all about judging worth based on who someone is and what they've
> done..."_

> _"is when I have to deal with certain business types who are perfectly
> comfortable with a monocle & a pocket watch"_

So... you balk at being judged on your fashion choices, but you're more than
willing to judge others for _their_ fashion choices? These two sentences
refute each other.

~~~
Killah911
Monocle & a pocket watch aren't exactly fashion choices. I was hinting at
"dress codes" as being more reflective of the 18th-early 19th century thinking
and not quite so relevant in the 21st century and the Information Age. I was
trying to be succinct.

~~~
potatolicious
Those two concepts aren't as separate as you want them to be. At the end of
the day you're still suggesting a link between a mode of thinking and a mode
of dress - while at the same time objecting to that link being drawn for
yourself.

You can't make a post complaining about people stereotyping engineers, while
stereotyping "business types" in the same sentence.

~~~
Killah911
Congrats, you win!

------
jack-r-abbit
Holy Shitsnacks! Did I really just read that? We can't fucking win.

Last year: Holy mother of God we have so many hookers at this event. This has
to stop! Now!

This year: Holy mother of Dog... we have too many regular looking people. This
has to stop. NOW!

I can't keep it all straight. I'm pretty sure the only solution is for
everyone to wear the same colored body suit that masks all indications of
gender, a mask to cover the face and an auto-tune device to cover the voice.
And everyone will just have a number badge so names are not a hint. I guess we
should probably have a different color suit for the non-technicals?

------
sharkweek
I can't imagine how frustrating that must be.

But I hate the concept of giving up fighting for yourself. Why not put a few
people in their place? If that's just not in your nature, fair enough; but I
say make a few guys feel like idiots by stepping up to the plate with your
expertise. If they don't like it, that's their problem.

And if that fails, I like davidrobert's idea as well -- maybe wear a shirt
that has a really nerdy programming joke on it. Or, better yet, the HN shirt
^_^ -- <http://teespring.com/hntees>

~~~
bluehat
OP here: I can put people in their place all day, but if my goal was to make
friends, that's not the best foot to start out on.

And yes, I have a lot of geeky T-shirts. I don't like the idea of having to
dress a certain way to be taken seriously, it seems very "un-engineering."

~~~
sharkweek
Fair enough, but don't give up! If someone is going to be put off by your
knowledge, that's probably not someone you'd want to spend time with anyways.
I hate the concept of having to pretend that you don't have a wealth of
knowledge to offer just because you don't match a stereotype.

The shirt comment was more cheeky, not intended as a serious recommendation =)

------
randall
Holy cow! I had never thought of this before. Thank you so much for sharing!

------
jchrisa
My solution is to (as much as possible) __assume that women at technical
conferences are technical. __If they aren't, it's not awkward, generally. At
least it's less awkward than the inverse.

That is something that is in all of our power to do.

------
bitwize
Here's the problem.

Humans of any gender perceive women to be less of a potential threat, and
therefore more friendly, than men. This is why onboard computers for US jet
fighters, and the American version of Siri, have female-sounding voices. And
it is why the employment of women for promotional purposes will no doubt
continue: if you want to persuade someone to buy your product in a way that
comes off as friendly, hiring an attractive and friendly-seeming woman to
promote the product is an easy and effective choice to make.

~~~
neurotech1
You are mistaken about the reason for the voice in jet fighters.

"Bitching Betty" [1], the voice warning in aircraft such as the F-16 and
F/A-18 was originally female because female pilots, especially in the military
were relatively rare, although there were some female controllers. The female
voice was more noticeable above the normal male pilots chatter on the radio.
The wiki entry is somewhat inaccurate on the historical detail, so I included
some info from F-16.net

[1] <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bitching_Betty#Voice_gender> [2]
[http://www.f-16.net/f-16_forum_viewtopic-t-1950-postdays-0-p...](http://www.f-16.net/f-16_forum_viewtopic-t-1950-postdays-0-postorder-
asc.html)

------
eumenides1
I hope this is a short term pain point to getting a real sol'n to a better
gender equalibrium among developers.

Face it, the only real sol'n is to have really technical women working in our
field because we can't go back. GDC has progressed, but as an industry it
needs to keep progressing.

Maybe we can highlight booths that go above and beyond for the sake of the
GDC? Like a best booth award selected based a set of criteria that includes
having technical women available and knowledgeable. Then give them 5 mins to
make a presentation.

------
monksy
Can we talk about tech things instead of gender politics please? I'm just here
for rampart, err, technical things.

~~~
mnicole
The state of the industry punishes a sizable amount of people that want to
talk about these types of things too. If you really care about tech, you'll
care about issues that keep people out that otherwise could have had a
profound impact on you.

------
ikailan
I went to GDC in 2011. I remember that there was a country trying to talk game
companies into opening a branch in their country. It was Germany, I believe.
They had a beauty pageant contestant dressed in full garb at their booth. It
made absolutely no sense at all.

------
hackernewbie
I feel like there was a time when gender politics wasn't so abrasive in
computing. It wasn't healthy, but it didn't make you constantly feel mired in
some swamp of unsolvable problems. I preferred the swamp of (un)solvable
problems that is computing.

~~~
pekk
Did the problem not exist before, or was it just invisible?

------
andyl
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Hacker News, and let our expert commentators put your resentments under the
microscope. We've already analyzed dozens of fascinating complaints just like
yours, and our appetite for endless debate grows day by day!

~~~
mbetter
First ten participants get a free "My feelings for dongles are modern and
nuanced" t-shirt.

------
ionwake
oh for gods sake. Girl doesn't get any attention at GDC. Why is this news.

~~~
scott_s
This is already buried, but I feel compelled to say: that is clearly not her
complaint.

