
Detroit DIYer cooks up stronger, lighter steel, shames scientists - shawndumas
http://m.engadget.com/default/article.do?artUrl=http://www.engadget.com/2011/06/11/detroit-diyer-cooks-up-stronger-lighter-steel-shames-scientist/&category=classic&postPage=1
======
srean
In spite of our understanding of chemistry, metallurgy still has quite a few
mysteries in store for us. Some of them go back thousands of years. For
instance we still have not been able to come up with a convincing reproduction
of Damascus steel, the prized material that middle eastern swords were built
of <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Damascus_steel>. Another supposedly related
and "lost" steel is wootz steel. <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wootz_steel>
Perhaps a good term to describe the study of these materials would be forensic
metallurgy. My closest brush with metallurgy was in a high-school chemistry
text-book, which to be honest bored me to death. But at a different level it
instills respect for the ingenuity and persistence of humans. Those methods
are by no means simple and the bronze-age and iron-age men figured it out.

Among other things that make recreating these materials hard, is that in
cooking them you not only need to get the ingredients right, but also get the
sequence correct, sometimes to the minutest detail. Impurities in parts per
million or the lack of can have significant effects in determining the
properties of the material. Same goes for the process of making it.

We understand properties of individual components well enough but the physics
that dictates the properties of alloys is different, difficult, non-smooth and
very non-linear. Statistical physics have played a huge role in trying to
model these behavior.

Another historical-metallurgical curiosity is the surprisingly corrosion
resistant iron pillar in Delhi. It has been out there, in the open, facing the
corroding elements of tropical weather for 25 centuries, but with little or no
corrosion damage.

Edit: <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_pillar_of_Delhi>

~~~
ars
The interesting thing about steel is that the tiny grains that make it up are
immensely strong, far stronger than any other material we have.

But we have no known method of making steel out of just those grains, it's
always mixed with other weaker parts.

That's why spider silk is so incredibly strong - it's manufactured
(essentially) one atom at a time.

If we could manufacture steel in the same way it would be far stronger than
spider silk.

Here's a list of some of the various grains in steel:

Pearlite, Cementite, Bainite, Austenite (there are many more).

The steel making process is all about encouraging a specific type (and
especially, mixture) of these grains to form. But we can do so only at low
efficiency and in a random fashion.

~~~
rorrr
> _The interesting thing about steel is that the tiny grains that make it up
> are immensely strong, far stronger than any other material we have._

That's not true, there are many materials stronger than steel:

1) Graphene

2) Titanium

3) Spider silk

4) Carbon nanotubes (buckypaper for instance)

5) IsoTruss carbon fiber

6) Metallic (palladium) glass

7) Transparent aluminum

~~~
eru
> 7) Transparent aluminum

Just joking?

~~~
ars
He might not be, transparent aluminum is also called:

    
    
      Alumina
      Aluminium oxide
      Corundum
      Sapphire
      Ruby
    

Lots of names for the same thing. It's an incredibly hard material, but it's
not really strong, if you define strong as tough.

It forms immediately on the surface of all aluminium that is exposed to air,
and prevents the aluminium from corroding any further.

------
D_Alex
I might have to disappoint you all...

An Australian company, BHP (my employer at the time), was working on this
method of steel production in the early 1990's. They had big hopes and put a
lot of R&D investment in it, but were unable to commercialize it as the sheets
of metal produced did not have consistent ductility and were prone to
cracking.

So - the idea is not new, and the challenges of going from a concept to
commercialization are serious, and were beyond the capabilities of one of the
world's largest steel producers. The Bainsteel website indicates that they are
still in the R&D phase. Best of luck to them, hope it works, but it is
vaporware until it is on sale.

~~~
intended
Could you share more information? A description of the process perhaps? Is
there any difference between what BHP was working on and his process? (I
realize that you may not have information now that you aren't working there.)

There is something about the parent article that doesn't sit entirely well
with me. It might just be my inner skeptic, though.

~~~
D_Alex
The process was conceptually identical, AFAICT. Actual implementation differed
insofar as coolant was sprayed onto the hot strip rather than being contained
in a bath as shown in the linked graphic.

BHP's steelmaking research in the early 90's was IMO pretty leading edge -
google "BHP Project M" for example. Unfortunately, the accountants decided
that there was little future in steelmaking in Australia, and spun off BHP's
steelmaking arm as a separate company (OneSteel) in yr 2000. The R&D focus
died off around the same time.

Back to Flash Bainite - I am not totally dissing it, since some particular
combination of steel composition and time-temperature path through the alloy
phase diagram might produce an especially good result. What I am saying is
that analogous heat treatments have been extensively studied in the past - but
not implemented commercially due to problems the researchers were unable to
overcome.

------
djcapelis
The linked article was pretty small, so I went and tried to get a bit more
information:

* <http://www.bainitesteel.com/> \- the company making the product

* <http://www.gizmag.com/stronger-steel-in-a-flash/18882/> \- a longer and better writeup

* [http://nextbigfuture.com/2011/06/flash-bainite-is-strongest-...](http://nextbigfuture.com/2011/06/flash-bainite-is-strongest-most-ductile.html) \- another writeup

Looks cool! Though not sure about the flamebait title from the original
article. :)

~~~
pedalpete
The gizmag article points out a great potential in marketing of this steel
too. I had assumed as I read it, that the process would be more energy
intensive, but it is actually less, which could mean a reduction in at least
comparable cost to current steel solutions.

'Cola also says his process is also environmentally friendly as it consumes
less energy per kilogram of steel processed compared to traditional methods
and uses water instead of oils or molten salt.'

------
moultano
Can we remove the "shames scientists" bit from the headline? This guy is a
scientist by definition if he has any experimental validation, and I didn't
see a citation for anyone being shamed.

~~~
riledhel
Second this. Don't understand why a sensationalist headline should translate
as is to HN.

~~~
sudont
Because it feels like there’s a strong distaste for amateur scientists (those
without degrees, not those who don’t know the scientific method) coming from
both professional engineers and PhDs, anyone that has academic accreditation.

The sensationalist title appeals to the autodidact that learned how to earn
100k+ without college through programming.

~~~
enko
As one of these non college educated $100k+ autodidacts I feel no particular
attraction to the title, in fact it is faintly annoying. Yes, I do vaguely
dislike people who value academic success over any other. However, as a (also
self-directed) student of history I know how much real science has been done
by the hobbyist and so the "tweaking the nose of the establishment" angle
doesn't really work for me.

------
tokenadult
At least this write-up

[http://www.physorg.com/news/2011-06-lighter-stronger-
steel-....](http://www.physorg.com/news/2011-06-lighter-stronger-steel-.html)

based on a press release mentions a journal article (as does one of the write-
ups linked in the reply by djcapelis).

A quick search on Google Scholar

<http://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=bainite>

didn't immediately turn up the new journal article, but shows that bainite has
been the subject of prior literature on heat treatment of steel for a long
time. What is unclear so far, based on any of the write-ups linked to from
this thread, is what trade-offs in mechanical and thermal characteristics and
price the variety of steel mentioned in the current press releases will have
in comparison with the hundreds of existing specialized varieties of steel.
What industry response there may be depends greatly on what steel
characteristics particular users of steel are most interested in.

------
Adam503
My dad had a PhD in metallurgical engineering from a Big 10 university. I
heard more about steel growing up up, than... well. you know. Anyway, I got
curious about steel in samurai swords one time, and I asked him about that.

He said there's lots of legends about this material or that could be remade at
the research lab my dad worked at that were not feasible to be mass produced.
Process too costly, or too toxic, or maybe too dangerous when you have to make
several thousand tons of it.

If my Dad had been given two weeks to just go and play at his company's lab,
he could have walked out the door with Excalibur.

~~~
jurjenh
I would imagine there would be a limited market for this, by necessity it
would be a high-end / high-cost / high-value market, much like exclusive
furniture for the rather well-off.

Any idea whether there are actual Excalibur smelters around?

------
politician
I think it's fair to point out that /this/ is an acceptable process to patent.
I'm sure that's obvious, but HN does spend a lot of time denouncing software
patents (rightly so).

EDIT: Not really sure why I got down-voted; nevertheless, I do think it's
important to point out cases where patents can be applied as originally
intended.

~~~
burgerbrain
Downvoted because there is no reason to start a patents discussion in a
materials science article.

~~~
VMG
When is the time then? This is a very good specific example.

~~~
hugh3
Maybe on an article which mentions patents?

Patent law does seem to be one of those "classic flamewar topics" which I
doubt anybody has anything especially new to say about. And the fact that
somebody invented a new metal doesn't change the terms of the debate or
provide anyone with new information, people have been inventing new metals
(and things analogous to new metals) for a long time.

------
guelo
Wow amateur metallurgist sounds like a hardcore hobby.

~~~
crocowhile
People have the weirdest hobbies. Have a look at this guy:
[http://www.themysteryworld.com/2011/02/tatara-project-guy-
ma...](http://www.themysteryworld.com/2011/02/tatara-project-guy-makes-blade-
out-of.html)

Making knives starting from the very scratch (that is, making their own steel
to start with)

~~~
eru
And actually, if hacking with computers wasn't so common, it would be
perceived as quite awesome, too.

~~~
hugh3
I'm sure you'd like to think so, but unless you have a blast furnace in your
garage you're not as cool as this guy, sorry.

~~~
cincinnatus
How about a CNC mill, laser cutter or reprap? :-)

------
riledhel
Same story appeared before on HN:
<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2642780>

------
hammock
Rearden Metal, anyone?

~~~
michaelleland
First thing that came to mind. That's it, I'm starting a new railroad.

~~~
eru
You should ask Mr Buffett about some pointers. He recently bought one.

------
ptrf
[http://www.engadget.com/2011/06/11/detroit-diyer-cooks-up-
st...](http://www.engadget.com/2011/06/11/detroit-diyer-cooks-up-stronger-
lighter-steel-shames-scientist)

The title links to the mobile page of engadget for some unapparent reason.

------
jtchang
This what I love about human ingenuity: we constantly strive to improve upon
something even if other people say it can't be done.

------
unwind
_Now, who has the number for the Nobel Prize committee?_

Easy: [http://www.kva.se/en/contact/Committees/Nobel-Committee-
for-...](http://www.kva.se/en/contact/Committees/Nobel-Committee-for-
Physics/). :)

------
jodoherty
That brings up another question: How much will it cost and how can I buy some?

~~~
eru
Why would you buy a lump of steel?

~~~
killerswan
Metallurgists do this. I've held lumps of the steel used in power plants
(which doesn't burn when the coal does), and even a pop can sized cylinder of
Beryllium. :D

------
econner
So is it going to be called Rearden Metal?

------
nosse
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bainite>

------
nsomaru
that's just awesome.

------
gardarh
I didn't know there was much steel in laptops.

------
sbierwagen
Just in case anyone is leaping to wrong conclusions: This is neat, but it's
not a miracle material. Tensile strength of 1900MPa is quite high for a steel,
but it's half as strong as glass fiber. The big advantage here is that it's
tougher, and cheaper to make, than fiberglass composite.

~~~
mattdeboard
Er, what conclusion is there to jump to other than an accurate one? It's 7%
stronger than traditional steel and 30% lighter, with a greatly decreased
manufacturing cost. Ok, fine, it's not a "miracle" material since it's not
curing the sick or raising the dead. But as long as testing continues to
support the conclusion of both the manufacturer and researchers at tOSU (and
elsewhere), this seems like an impressive engineering feat.

~~~
patrickaljord
The title is ridiculous though, didn't they use science to make stronger steel
or did they make them out of magic?

~~~
learc83
I'm sure the title meant professional, established scientists, not that he
didn't use the scientific method.

