
Why Are New York City’s Streets Always Under Construction? - dankohn1
http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2016/08/18/nyregion/new-york-101-streets-repair-and-maintenance.html
======
nashashmi
As an engineer who has worked in both the design and construction side of
utility work in NYC, allow me to explain why utilities are such a big problem.
Every utility not owned and operated by the city or MTA must pay the city for
use of their right of way, meaning streets and sidewalks, in between property
lines. If a utility were to operate within outside of the right of way in
private property they would have to pay the property owner to use the land As
an easement.

A utility company has an agreement with city and pays the city on those terms
to move the facility when told to do so at own cost (gas lines are exempt
because they are international lines). It also must pay contractors when
working near those lines for the discomfort they cause.

Utilities don't just have conduits or pipes running down, but also manholes
and chambers, and some of them are huge. I once came across a 90' x 60' x 40'
underground substation. These chambers cause other utilities to avoid them by
switching lanes and going to the sides. These switches cause greater
infrastructure density, or more pipes in an area.

For places like manhattan, telephone company requires more conduits and wires
in every street than any where else. Some companies insist in a conduit just
for themselves, like Amazon AWS to run their own services. Parallel to that
are electric lines that require large pipes for the huge area it serves. Same
goes for gas main and the next annoyance e.g. Steam, which is difficult to
move around.

If the city were to come and build something, pretty much everyone has to move
things around. This is what causes a significant spaghetti buildup.
Eventually, it becomes virtually impossible to locate or record location of
everything. Add to that the age of records and the frequent loss of records.

Designing utilities is an art of patience. Constructing around them is far
worse. Recording them is poorly done. I was very peculiar about accuracy of
records but even I had to sometimes wing it. And I am pretty sure few take the
time to painstakingly record and draw stuff like I did.

Problems like this make me imagine that all utilities should be placed
vertically in a chamber easily accessible and maintainable. But that is naive.

~~~
honkhonkpants
That explains a bit but it doesn't explain why manhattan's streets are so much
more fucked up than cities of comparable size and complexity elsewhere, many
of which are much older.

~~~
jahnu
I was taken aback by the state of the roads in NYC when I first visited. How
on earth can a country so in love with cars not have their roads in better
condition? The condition of footpaths wasn't much better. Especially horrible
was trying to avoid stepping in the pool of stinky fluid that leaks out of the
trash baskets on the corners of intersections.

Still loved the place though! :)

~~~
oh_sigh
Because cars are second class citizens in NY.

------
iamleppert
The street outside near my apartment has been under constant construction
during the entire 5 years I've lived there. They literally tear open the same
part of the street multiple times, and cover it back up again, only to tear it
open again, etc.

One day I asked one of the workers why they keep tearing open the same part of
the road, why couldn't they just replace everything that is broken in one go?

He told me that they often do find and fix the problems, but sometimes they
can't find them and give up, or sometimes they do and only kind of fix them.
Other times they do fix the problem, only to have another in the same area. He
also said sometimes an electric guy will mess up the plumbing, etc. And they
aren't allowed to touch and telecom stuff. He said that sometimes some crews
will just cut out his work, or cut into their pipes, drill and bolt into their
pipes or riggings, causing leaks, etc.

I'm sure at some level this keeps these guys busy but its a wonder we haven't
been able to come up with some kind of better system or way of doing things in
all these years.

~~~
casta
I find interesting that you could read what the worker said as a metaphor to
software development.

And if a worker were to look at how some code changes just looking at the
files modified, he would probably notice that we keep tearing open and
modifying the same piece of code many times, he might ask why can't we just
fix all the bugs at once.

~~~
amelius
Imho, that is not a good metaphor, because all streets are basically the same,
whereas software is always very different (and way more complicated).

~~~
matthewmacleod
That sounds a little bit like a software developer's bubble to me!

Yeah, most software is a bit more complex than underground utilities. But the
latter are far from the same, and I'd argue it's actually much more difficult
to prod, examine and debug what's going on underneath an active roadway than
it is to debug a bit of software, for example.

------
davidf18
I'm in NYC currently attending a tech meetup. I received an Apple alert
telling me that traffic was heavy and to allow for 40 minutes. Yet, I was able
to arrive in 15 mins by subway: two stops express from 96th st to 42nd st.
Then transfer local 4 stops.

~~~
Spooky23
While the world may seem to center around Manhattan, some people start their
trips in savage lands like Queens.

Others find the prospect of standing on a hot crowded train that runs late and
smells like urine less appealing.

~~~
galdosdi
Yeah, and the tokens are a frigging hassle!

I assume you have not ridden the subway in decades.

~~~
Spooky23
Just last week. It was like 120 degrees and awful.

Travel-wise, It was the best option for me, but I totally sympathize with
anyone wishing to avoid the experience.

~~~
casta
120 degrees in the train or on the platform? The trains have usually A/C, and
if not, you can report it.

I commute on the 8 ave line every day and I've never been on a train without
A/C.

~~~
lobster_johnson
Oh, it happens. Not often, sure, but you will experience it one day. The first
sign is that everyone else will immediately turn upon entering the carriage,
just like they do if some homeless person is using it as their personal
toilet.

------
kraig
'peek and shriek' is great and totally describes some of the stuff I have to
deal with at work too

------
joe8756438
tl;dr. Because there are a ton of them. There is a ton of stuff below them.
And there is a ton of stuff above them.

------
snake_plissken
I wonder about the breakdown of pothole causes. Yes, Nature's way will cause
potholes and they will naturally expand if not rectified.

But then I think about the construction crew down the street from me, in
Philadelphia, that didn't properly fill in and tamp down the trench they dug
for a new sewer line. "Just fill it with some stones and dirt, and throw some
Home Depot black top down on it," the foreman said, I imagine.

The thing grew, and became a gargantuan pothole. Eventually the city fixed it,
and granted this probably has everything to do with the contractor in
question, and I've seen larger construction companies doing things right, but
I'm convinced we could eliminate a lot of potholes if crews just did the job
right.

~~~
imtringued
There was a case of a german geothermal company that drilled a hole down to
the ground water without sealing it properly. Turns out there was a huge
deposit of Anhydrit below the town. In combination with the water it formed
plaster and expanded in volume causing cracks on the buildings on the surface.

[http://www.sbz-
online.de/Cache/GENTNER/10024/0609-01-OPT1_Mz...](http://www.sbz-
online.de/Cache/GENTNER/10024/0609-01-OPT1_MzEwNzc3Wg.JPG)
[https://hausmannskost.files.wordpress.com/2011/07/risseg.jpg](https://hausmannskost.files.wordpress.com/2011/07/risseg.jpg)

~~~
erlehmann_
The story mentioned by the parent seems to be this:
[https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hebungsrisse_in_Staufen_im_Bre...](https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hebungsrisse_in_Staufen_im_Breisgau)

------
oneplane
It's somewhat strange to me that they have this whole article, but is't mostly
just excuses for types of problems that just come from USA's perspective and
actions on infrastructure... You don't see the same excuses in other places.
They either fix the problem, or admit that it's not organised well enough, yet
this article does neither. (as far as I understood from the text)

~~~
et-al
Interesting. For me it was eye-opening because I had naïvely assumed all the
construction was either for road repairs, or to build new subways; not the
utility companies cutting up the road:

> But unlike Paris or Tokyo, where tubes and wires are usually bundled inside
> a cavernous sewer system or tucked underneath sidewalks, much of New York’s
> underground infrastructure lies within five feet of the asphalt surface.

> Last year, the [transportation department] issued 223,271 permits, about
> half of them to utility companies.

What do you propose that they do, though? Ideally we'd build a utility-only
tunnel like Paris or Tokyo, but there's no space. You have the subway further
underneath, and the sidewalks have basements.

Without a massive overhaul requiring eminent domain or a fire, the only
solutions are better construction techniques, which they're looking into.

~~~
eggy
I always thought an elevated road like computer flooring for access. It would
be a massive project, you'd have to step up to cross the street, and you'd
still need access to the road below for the older, unmovable stuff. Either
way, not happening, too much scope.

It falls back on evolving into something like the movie 'Brazil' with all of
the ductwork ;)

~~~
RyJones
this is essentially the story you will hear on the "Seattle Underground" tour.
Instead of raising the city like they did in Chicago[0], Seattle built taller
streets[1].

[0]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raising_of_Chicago](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raising_of_Chicago)

[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seattle_Underground](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seattle_Underground)

~~~
eggy
Wow, I didn't know about the Seattle Underground. Very cool. Thanks!

------
wallflower
I highly recommend Kate Ascher's "The Works: The Anatomy of a City" if you are
fascinated by underground and other workings.

[https://www.amazon.com/Works-Anatomy-City-Kate-
Ascher/dp/014...](https://www.amazon.com/Works-Anatomy-City-Kate-
Ascher/dp/0143112708)

~~~
Tomte
Good book, but too NYC-centric for my taste. OTOH, that made everything pretty
concrete.

Another great book is "Underground" by David Macaulay. Beautiful, breathtaking
drawings.

------
cyberferret
I am thinking it is a bit like the Sydney Harbour Bridge, which has been
continuously painted since it was built... The work crews when they get to the
end of the bridge simply go back to the other end and start again... :)

EDIT: Just clarifying that it is not as simple as starting at one end and
painting to the other and back again - simply that I have heard that there is
always someone with a paintbrush or spray hose somewhere on the bridge working
away.

~~~
themartorana
They say the same thing about the Ben Franklin Bridge here in Philly. I don't
know if it's true, but it is under some amount of perpetual work.

~~~
leviathant
A few weeks (months?) ago, I started setting my old iPhone up to do time lapse
videos, and once or twice noticed some kind of maintenance tram running
between the two towers:
[https://vimeo.com/179417477](https://vimeo.com/179417477)

~~~
themartorana
Nice! Also you don't live too far from me :)

------
bogomipz
Did anyone else click on the Empire City Subway link in the Article? This
organization has intrigued me since I learned about them. You don't see their
trucks often and when you do they are very low key looking, matte grey, simple
block letters. They have nothing to do with the subway. Anyway if you missed
it:

"Empire City Subway Company (ECS) is a wholly owned subsidiary of Verizon that
specializes in subsurface engineering and construction services. Since 1891,
ECS has held a franchise from the City of New York to build and maintain a
conduit and manhole infrastructure in Manhattan and the Bronx. ECS rents this
space to telecommunications and cable television service providers."

If you want to run fiber in in either of those boroughs you need to pay
Verizon. Kind of odd that a public asset is controlled by a private company.
Its basically a shadow company. A 125 year old franchise?

~~~
rayiner
It's not an atypical arrangement (though, usually it's more likely that the
power company owns the conduits rather than the telephone company). Those
arrangements arose because the city doesn't want to get into the business of
building and maintaining conduits. ECS provides non-discriminatory access to
conduits at public rates:
[http://www.empirecitysubway.com/ratesbill.html](http://www.empirecitysubway.com/ratesbill.html).
They charge Verizon the same rates as anyone else.

------
eddd
I just wonder, why do people in NYC bother to use cars? Bikes, subway and
taxis are not enough?

~~~
nixos
No.

1\. NYC is _BIG_. It's 304 square miles, which is about 17 by 17 miles. There
are many places where biking is too far.

2\. Subways, in contrast to popular opinion, don't go everywhere. Mainly,
unless you live in Manhattan, or that's the only place where you want to go,
the Subway system is quite lousy. Going from the airport to Coney Island takes
an hour and a half by subway (according to Google), rather than half an hour
by car. Now what happens if you have what to do in Queens, Far Rockaway, or
NJ?

3\. Expensive and no point. Due to #2, most NYers have to have a car, if at
least for those off days when they want to leave the city or what. Once you
have the car, driving it is much cheaper than taxi.

~~~
galdosdi
17 miles is not a long bike ride unless you do not bike. 90min at a slow 11mph
pace. A lot of people do 90min commutes. Scary car traffic is a much bigger
reason people do not bike such routes, not distance.

That said, for such distances a moped or ebike could be much faster, while
still evading gridlock that would slow a car.

~~~
cc439
It's 17x17 miles in a straight line, something that is impossible given the
geography of the city and its waterways. I just picked a random cross borough
trip from the Aquarium to Yankee Stadium and the shortest bike-traversable
route is 22.3 miles despite the 2 locations being just 17.7 miles apart as the
crow flies. That is a pretty straight route as well.

~~~
galdosdi
More to the point, the average NYC car trip goes under 3 miles, the length of
a pleasant 11 to 18 minute bike ride.

It is OK to use more than one mode!

------
CM30
So, does anyone know how this compares to other cities?

Because over here in the UK (especially in London), it feels like there's a
never ending stream of roadworks being done at any one point in time. Heck,
the roads themselves look like a patchwork quilt made of whatever pieces of
asphalt and cement were lying around that week.

So any comparisons? Is New York worse than other cities of a comparable size?
In the US or abroad?

------
chirau
If there is one person I would like to meet in the world, it is the NYC Subway
Dispatcher. When you are on the subway, he/she never carries good news. It
always starts like this...

"Ladies and gentlemen: We are being held momentarily by the train’s
dispatcher..."

~~~
yolesaber
The "Ladies and gentlemen, we are being held momentarily" is not the
dispatcher, it's an automated message and is the voice of Charlie Pellett
([http://www.newyorker.com/culture/culture-desk/the-most-
recog...](http://www.newyorker.com/culture/culture-desk/the-most-recognizable-
voice-in-new-york)).

~~~
chirau
I know it's not the dispatcher himself. The voice, however, often says we are
being held up by the dispatcher and we will be moving shortly.

