
Terror laws clear Australian Senate, enabling entire web to be monitored - endgame
http://www.smh.com.au/digital-life/consumer-security/terror-laws-clear-senate-enabling-entire-australian-web-to-be-monitored-and-whistleblowers-to-be-jailed-20140925-10m8ih.html
======
thomasfromcdnjs
We are working on a grass roots campaign to raise awareness about these bills,
mainly the data retention legislation which will be up for debate in the
upcoming weeks.

The campaign will focus on allowing constituents to easily contact their
representatives via calls, emails, facebook and twitter.

Here is the campaign mockup ->
[https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ByT3WMbCYAEsFcA.jpg:large](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ByT3WMbCYAEsFcA.jpg:large)

We also have an animation in development to more easily explain in laymen
terms the repercussions of the proposed legislation.

For anyone inspired enough to want to help out there are a few roles to fill.

1) Website development

[https://github.com/stopthespies/website](https://github.com/stopthespies/website)

There are a bunch of open issues but your best bet is to join us at
#ausprivacy on freenode to get a better idea of what needs to be done and
where we are at.

2) Legislator Dataset

We have a large majority of the contact details for legislators thanks to
OpenAustralia.org but there are quite a few missing still. So for those who
can't help out with development, we would love help finding missing contact
information. I have already wrote a call for help on Reddit ->
[http://www.reddit.com/r/australia/comments/2hhh2m/call_for_v...](http://www.reddit.com/r/australia/comments/2hhh2m/call_for_volunteers_to_help_make_contacting/)

3) Press/Media

If you are a journalist or influential person/company who is interested in
promoting the campaign, please shoot me an email(can be found in my HN
profile)

~~~
dwd
You might want to coordinate with GetUp in this as well as you can expect they
will be mobilising on this issue.

------
aaronmoodie
"The truth is, there is something terribly wrong with this country, isn't
there? Cruelty and injustice, intolerance and oppression. And where once you
had the freedom to object, to think and speak as you saw fit, you now have
censors and systems of surveillance coercing your conformity and soliciting
your submission. How did this happen? Who's to blame? Well certainly there are
those more responsible than others, and they will be held accountable, but
again truth be told, if you're looking for the guilty, you need only look into
a mirror. I know why you did it. I know you were afraid. Who wouldn't be? War,
terror, disease. There were a myriad of problems which conspired to corrupt
your reason and rob you of your common sense." ― Alan Moore, V for Vendetta

------
jnbiche
Incredible, even after seeing up close what America has gone through because
of laws like these passed in the wake of 9/11, Australia is going to pass the
same sweeping type of surveillance laws? And Australia doesn't even have the
excuse of a recent terror attack.

What is going on there, Aussies? How is there enough support to pass these
kinds of laws? (or is there?)

I would have thought post-Snowden this would have been out of the question.

~~~
w1ntermute
The average person doesn't care about government snooping. They have a million
other worries in their life. Sure, they might watch the news and see a new
report on a Snowden leak, but they probably don't feel very strongly about it
one way or the other, and so they'll just ignore and go on with their daily
life.

~~~
gilgoomesh
I think the average person hears "new terrorism laws", doesn't hear any other
words, and is happy because they think it means the government is rounding up
brown people and imprisoning them for being brown.

As far as I can tell from mainstream journalism here in Australia, that's the
top priority for most people. It doesn't matter if the brown people are
immigrants, refugees, terrorists or locals.

~~~
px1999
That's definitely my experience in attempting to deal with the Department of
Immigration and Border Protection (trying to get tourist visas for my brown
de-facto partner); and also my experience when talking to Australians outside
my immediate clique.

I'm an Australian who lives/works overseas but spends quite a bit of time in
Australia, and it's quite sickening to return every 6 months to a more
polarised, racist, and terrified public -- and it's sure as hell not Al Qaeda,
Daesh or any other external group that's causing the problems, it's the
mainstream media.

------
femto
Here's a good one: A few hours before the legislation came before parliament,
but early enough to get extensive media coverage, a member of the Australian
Defense Force reported being attacked outside his house, whilst in uniform, by
men of "Middle Eastern" appearance [1]. The "beheading" bogey was even worked
into the story [2]. The next day, he withdraws the complaint [3]. To what
extent was this an influence on the vote in parliament?

[1] [http://www.smh.com.au/national/adf-member-reports-assault-
in...](http://www.smh.com.au/national/adf-member-reports-assault-in-bella-
vista-20140925-10m372.html)

[2] [http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/nsw/uniformed-
australi...](http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/nsw/uniformed-australian-
defence-force-member-allegedly-attacked-by-men-of-middle-eastern-appearance-
in-western-sydney/story-
fni0cx12-1227070513974?nk=7b2ada99cf4b7ce505f6329766400eef)

[3] [http://www.smh.com.au/national/australian-defence-force-
memb...](http://www.smh.com.au/national/australian-defence-force-member-
withdraws-attack-complaint-20140926-10mfgg.html)

~~~
Khaine
I hate to tell you but its probably true. During 2008, Defence Force Personnel
were told to not were passes or uniforms in public when not necessary as there
were threats and some staff were attacked in Brisbane

Your conspiratorial tone is sickening, given you lack of proof. The
circumstances are suspicious, but they also coincide with browning tensions,
with ISIS, beheadings and forces being sent to the middle east

~~~
femto
The evidence is strongly against it being true, given that the ADF is
apologising for the allegation and the officer's conduct is being
investigated.

The ADF might well be an innocent party, given that it was ASIO that stood to
benefit from the legislation.

[http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-09-26/adf-sailor-
withdraws-s...](http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-09-26/adf-sailor-withdraws-
sydney-attack-allegation/5771586)

~~~
Khaine
Yeah, that is all a bit strange.

But Defence forces being attacked for being in uniform is not unprecedented,
even excluding Lee Rigby there have been several incidents
[http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/03/world/europe/03frankfurt.h...](http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/03/world/europe/03frankfurt.html)
and
[http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.htm...](http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=505864)

------
beedogs
I was ashamed to be an American when the PATRIOT Act passed and when it was
reauthorized.

And today, I get to be ashamed to be an Australian, too.

There's no need for these laws, and they'll be abused to do anything but
"fight terrorism".

~~~
xnull2guest
It's not about terrorism. Never was. That's just how the deep state sells it
to voters.

If you look at the Snowden documents (and leaks by others) you'll see
essentially nothing other than the international nature of the programs. For
example, you'll remember from the Snowden leaks that the NSA hacked the
Brazilian oil company PETROBRAS to help American oil companies win offshore
oil drilling locations. The hacking of Merkle's cell phone was a big deal
because it revealed that the US had information from Germany _during the
Eurozone crisis_! Stuxnet was used to destroy Iran's nuclear program.

The US also faces the same sort of pressure from other countries. This year
alone the DoD was hacked, Wall Street, NASDAQ and JP Morgan were hacked and
hundreds of defense contractors were hacked - all with foreign attribution.
Israel's Iron Dome designs were hacked by China.

Take a look at the NSA program HACIENTA, which "is used to port scan entire
countries" and which uses other compromised (civilian) computers to disguise
attribution.

Look at The Intercept reporting (where Glenn Greenwald is right now). He
speaks at length about how the US uses NSA operations to benefit the global
bargaining posture and competitiveness of US companies.
[https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2014/09/05/us-
governments...](https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2014/09/05/us-governments-
plans-use-economic-espionage-benefit-american-corporations/)

And take the Inspector General's report from the Boston Bombings - a great
example of how and when the NSA domestic programs would be used if they were
about terrorism. The NSA is hardly mentioned. The Inspector General
investigates the failings of the FBI. ([http://info.publicintelligence.net/IC-
IG-BostonBombingReport...](http://info.publicintelligence.net/IC-IG-
BostonBombingReport.pdf))

"We focused our review on the entities that were the most likely to have had
information about Tamerlan Tsarnaev prior to the bombings – the FBI, the CIA,
DHS, and NCTC, which maintains the U.S. government’s database of classified
identifying and substantive derogatory information on known or suspected
terrorists. We also requested other federal agencies to identify relevant
information they may have had prior to the bombings. These agencies included
the Department of Defense (including the National Security Agency (NSA)),
Department of State, Department of the Treasury, Department of Energy, and the
Drug Enforcement Administration."

The report on the failures to anticipate/stop the Boston Bombers barely
mention the NSA. This is because the Federal Bureau of Investigation and the
National Counterterrorism Center are in charge of counterterrorism, not the
National Security Agency.

Or go to the NSA's own mission statement.
([https://www.nsa.gov/about/mission/index.shtml](https://www.nsa.gov/about/mission/index.shtml))

"The National Security Agency/Central Security Service (NSA/CSS) leads the
U.S. Government in cryptology that encompasses both Signals Intelligence
(SIGINT) and Information Assurance (IA) products and services, and enables
Computer Network Operations (CNO) in order to gain a decision advantage for
the Nation and our allies under all circumstances."

(Nothing to do with terrorism.)

Lots of news recently has called out Executive Order 12333's role in defining
the goal and the means of intelligence capabilities. EO 12333 was passed in
1981. The Five Eyes, the key partnership of the NSA, has its origins in the
40's and ECHELON and other leaked programs (eg CARNIVORE/PREDATOR) predate
9/11 by decades.

The Snowden leaks disclose a list with over thirty countries with competing
digital intelligence programs.

The NSA is not about terrorism. Never was. Never will be. The NSA and CSS are
the intelligence arm of the United States. Austrilia's programs are similarly
not about terrorism. Digital communications play a huge role in global
communications and corporate and international power.

That's not to say there no domestic component to the programs. Domestic
programs are also useful to track and disrupt radical ideas and organization
within the country (MINERVA), and can also be used to incite discontent in
other nations (look up the USAID Cuban Twitter program). Countries are able to
manipulate the appearance of consensus within citizens of nations and in this
way actually affect this consensus. (Look at the GCHQ programs leaks with
BIRDSONG/BADGER/GATEWAY/SLIPSTREAM/ETC.) They also are used to monitor, detect
and perform forensics on breaches from other countries.

There's so much to say, but I'll leave the comment with this. Digital
communications are so insecure that the attackers always win. Always. And
digital communications play a huge role (next to satellite and radio
communications) in modern espionage and sabotage. If you just play a defensive
game, you lose. The US feels it needs these capabilities. There's a sort of
cyber cold war. Every country will lose if it decides not to play. So it
doesn't really matter whether we want these programs or not as citizens - no
vote is going to disarm nations at cyberwar.

------
chewxy
"The internet poses one of the greatest threats to our existence," Palmer
United Party Senator Glen Lazarus said, speaking out against Senator Ludlam's
amendment.

I do not understand it. How can people say such things about one of the
greatest inventions of the human species, that allowed us as a species to
understand one another better?!? What goes in their mind when they say things
like this?

~~~
quink
Glenn Lazarus is a former rugby footballer, who was nicknamed 'the brick with
eyes'. He's basically a warm body whose election was paid for by a political
party founded by a billionaire miner who - the miner - has hardly been present
in the House of Representatives when it comes to votes other than to vote for
climate change legislation repealing one of the lowest carbon taxes in the
OECD and - go figure - a mining tax.
[http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-09-16/clive-palmer-is-mp-
lea...](http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-09-16/clive-palmer-is-mp-least-likely-
to-use-lower-house-vote/5746612)

He's also building the Titanic II. Nevertheless, this wasn't the stupidest
thing heard in the Senate this week, which would be Chris Back's "Some people
may be distressed to know maleness is actually suppressed femaleness".

Edit: Yes, I already know there's a TV show just waiting to be written out of
the daily tales of Australian politics. No need to tell me. But the media
here, controlled like politics by Rupert Murdoch, isn't going to be the one to
do it.

You want to see the cover of the best selling newspaper on that day? Here it
is: [https://i.imgur.com/2TglCpg.jpg](https://i.imgur.com/2TglCpg.jpg)
"Hellfire justice" indeed.

~~~
chewxy
Yeah, I'm aware. PUP and Clive Palmer went from being the punchline of the
Chaser boys' jokes to something seriously wrong in a very short period of
time.

~~~
robryan
Amazing what you can do with almost limitless campaign funding.

Hopefully on some issues they aid in voting the government down but it is
really rolling the dice.

------
bigB
As a person in the IT industry within Australia, I speak to normal average
people every day about these things. In the last 2 days I have spoken to many
people about these new laws, and the general consensus is THEY DON'T CARE,
just plain and simple. Your average person has many more problems to deal with
other than the government spying on them. We do not have "free speech" here in
Australia, so most people don't really see this as a big problem. Bear in mind
this is a country where healthcare is pretty much free, our wages are
extremely high compared to most countries, and our welfare and pension system
is reasonable. No matter what bitching and moaning people do, the government
has "generally" looked after us (though our current PM is beginning to change
that). On top of this the government and mass media are collectively running a
scare campaign on terror, so people just look at the news and go "Yep, that
makes sense". Having said that I do not agree with any of these laws, but
there is very little I can do about it myself. I didn't vote for the current
government, and my local member of parliament is part of the opposition
anyhow, so as a single person its pretty much game over.

~~~
Daneel_
I'm right here with you bigB. I voted Greens, since they seem to have more
common sense than either side. The current government is an embarrassment to
Australia, both historically and politically. We used to be proud that we were
free - it's part of the first sentence of our national anthem. This isn't the
only poor decision the current government has made; they also scrapped our
carbon tax and destroyed our fibre optic internet just as it was being rolled
out. Truly a terrible government, with no sight of the future.

------
tonymon
So is time to switch from Fastmail now?

~~~
gorhill
I would like to understand why you are voted down.

Fastmail is in Australia, your comment seems relevant to me.

------
freakonom
> The internet poses one of the greatest threats to our existence

This is true, where "our" refers to domestic spy agencies and the governments
that consume their output.

Hence these laws.

~~~
deciplex
What if most people support these laws? What happens when a democracy decides
to vote away its own freedom? Should it be somehow prevented from doing so?

~~~
dublinben
This is a classic example of the tyranny of the majority, and why government
of any kind, democratic or not, is illegitimate. Any institution that wields
power over you will eventually deprive you of your freedom against your will.

~~~
deciplex
And without a government, i.e. without some entity with a monopoly on force,
what happens then? Do I have to do battle on the streets every time I buy
groceries or go to work?

I guess in the end, democracy or not, you get the government you deserve.
Australians voted these guys in, they tolerate their actions, and many
Australians will applaud them. If it all goes well, great. If not, I won't
have much sympathy for them.

This is not an attitude I like to have, mind you, because I find that wherever
I see tyranny in the world, I believe that to some degree - sometimes a lot,
sometimes only a little - the victims of that oppression had it coming.

------
bazfoo
Are there any good pointers to where the amendments have actually expanded
surveillance capabilities? I've been going through the amendments and
comparing them to the original bill, but so far I'm finding a lot of
rewording.

For instance, the definition of computer[1] that is being suggested to allow
monitoring of the entire internet is:

    
    
      computer means all or part of:
        (a)  one or more computers; or
        (b)  one or more computer systems; or
        (c)  one or more computer networks;
        (d)  any combination of the above.
    

Whereas the old definition[2] was:

    
    
      computer means a computer, a computer system or part of a computer system.
    

Both of these seem equivalent in my eyes. If so, the horse seems to have
already bolted years ago.

Frankly I have no idea where to go from here. How does one talk to your local
MP when the details of the proposed legislation are so muddy?

[1]:
[http://parlinfo.aph.gov.au/parlInfo/search/display/display.w...](http://parlinfo.aph.gov.au/parlInfo/search/display/display.w3p;query=Id%3A%22legislation%2Fbills%2Fs969_first-
senate%2F0002%22)

[2]:
[http://www.comlaw.gov.au/Details/C2014C00613/Html/Text#_Toc3...](http://www.comlaw.gov.au/Details/C2014C00613/Html/Text#_Toc396138654)

~~~
XorNot
Those seem in no way equivalent. The old definition pretty clearly refers to 1
computer. You could certainly argue that several hosts represented 1 computer,
but a judge would throw it out.

The new definition plainly allows "one or more computer networks" which means
literally the entire internet since it's just "one or more computer networks".

~~~
bazfoo
It seems to me that the explicit separation (and vagueness) of 'compter' and
'computer system' seems intended to have the latter cover networks. But
perhaps you're right.

------
jpatokal
This wouldn't be so depressing if it was just Abbott and the Liberals ramming
changes through, but no, Labour voted in favor as well. Sigh.

~~~
fweabv
Just shows you that for Australia to regain a functioning government, it will
take us to elect someone other than LNP or Labour who will undo the damage.

~~~
fphhotchips
Agreed, but who?

The Greens? Not likely. The "Green" bit scares too many people. The Dems? Ha!
PUP? Oh god no. Other crazy minor parties? See: crazy minor party.

The reason we elect Liberals and Labor (apart from institutional momentum) is
that they're the _least despicable and dysfunctional_. Besides, look at
precedent. The last major move in politics was PUP getting seats in parliament
for the 3(?) dumbest stooges I've ever seen. Essentially proving that you can
_buy_ seats in our parliament.

No, if we want to effect change we need to find another way. Possibly that
means joining the major parties and attempting to effect change from within,
or perhaps that means more protesting to increase awareness. I don't really
know.

~~~
2muchcoffeeman
Why find another way? I like to point to Geert Wilders
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geert_Wilders](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geert_Wilders)

The Dutch parliament is the same size and the Australian parliament. In about
5 years they went from a new party to the 3rd largest in the Netherlands. They
are still the 4th largest. And these guys seem a little bit wacky. Why can't
we get a third party (or the Greens) elected?

------
justin_l
Possibly relevant (from 2012):

[http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/asio-boss-says-we-need-
more...](http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/asio-boss-says-we-need-more-muslim-
recruits-to-combat-terror-threats-in-
australia/story-e6freuy9-1226252730137?nk=7cae6a1e81c09f1996f6c615ead5f065)

> On the other side of the ledger, Mr Irvine admitted that the debate about
> civil liberties and intelligence gathering was a valid one to have.

> "I believe however that the vast majority of Australians expect their
> governments to take all necessary actions to protect their community and
> further the national interest," he said.

> He said ASIO has no plans for a "grand expansion" of its spy network but
> said it would need to lift recruitment to meet the demands or cyber
> terrorism as well as traditional forms of terror.

------
wazoox
Apparently you seemed to have missed it, but France passed a similar law one
week ago, adding to it the ability to forbid residents from leaving the
territory. This is the general trend toward final abandonment of democracy.
Dark times to come.

~~~
scribu
Could you provide a link? The only recent thing I could find was
[http://www.france24.com/en/20140925-france-heightened-
securi...](http://www.france24.com/en/20140925-france-heightened-security-
terrorism-threat/)

~~~
mercurial
It's not final yet, it still needs to go through the Senate. More details here
[1]. It's different from the Australian law, as it's more focused on
administrative (as opposed to judicial) censorship rather than spying. It's
obviously bad too.

Sadly, the judicial arsenal for no-oversight spying on telecommunication is in
place since 2013 [2], as part of the Military Programming Law. Not that the
DGSE would wait for a law to do something like this anyway [3].

1: [http://www.laquadrature.net/en/france-adopts-anti-terror-
law...](http://www.laquadrature.net/en/france-adopts-anti-terror-law-eroding-
civil-liberties)

2: [http://en.rsf.org/alarm-over-massive-
spying-12-12-2013,45606...](http://en.rsf.org/alarm-over-massive-
spying-12-12-2013,45606.html)

3: [http://techcrunch.com/2014/03/20/orange-gives-all-of-its-
dat...](http://techcrunch.com/2014/03/20/orange-gives-all-of-its-data-to-
frances-nsa/)

------
transfire
If we are to believe the foremost principle of democracy, that the government
is the people. And the people are to give up their privacy for the sake of
security, then so too the government has no right to privacy for the sake of
its security. Indeed, a secret government with a people lacking security in
their effects, is a government that will soon discover is has no security of
its own from its own. For it has separated itself and made its own people the
enemy.

------
Khaine
I think that the bill has been poorly drafted. I don't think that ASIO are
interested in monitoring the entire internet. To me, I think the intent was to
allow ASIO to monitor a home network with one warrant, given the prevalence of
people having multiple computer devices.

I do hope that the government tighten some of the definitions within the bill,
rather then relying upon courts to narrow the interpretation.

------
hadoukenio
Is this bill allowed to be retroactive? If so, this is what they will get
Assange, or the next Assange with. Consider the Australian arm of WikiLeaks
(including the party) closed for business.

Which now concerns me. Will WikiLeaks Party members be put on a list just like
the ASIA targetted communists during the cold war?

------
dubcanada
It's amazing what people will agree too based on the idea of fear. People
learn nothing from history.

------
daemin
Of particular note with this issue is that _both_ major parties (The Liberals
in Government, and Labor in Opposition) voted _for_ this legislation.

It appears to me that regardless of who of the major parties was actually in
power something like this would have come in.

------
hadoukenio
"The internet poses one of the greatest threats to our existence," Palmer
United Party Senator Glen Lazarus said.

For a second there, I thought I was reading about North Korea.

------
marak830
As an Australian the first thing i thought was " youre fucking kidding me".

I didnt leave Australia because of things like this, but it certainly makes me
rethink returning.

~~~
javajosh
Sure, but where do you go?

------
eden-san
Personally I just don't understand why everyone worries so much about all
these surveillance announcements.

People contribute with personal data to help increase the security of a
nation. I don't consider that as an act of spying from government, I call that
"Crowd Funding" from the people, for global security.

But well, I'm an optimist and I assume there are doing this for the right
reasons.

~~~
Perseids
> But well, I'm an optimist and I assume there are doing this for the right
> reasons.

Even if the laws were made with good intentions, they are not implemented by
perfect human beings. If you get on the US No-Fly list just because of a
clerical error, you will have to fight in court for years to get off [1]
because the administration does not want to admit mistakes. Laura Poitras, an
investigative journalist, was repeatedly "randomly" searched and detained on
airports, without any formal charge, because her documentations are
inconvenient to those in charge [2]. IIRC, GHCQ employees stored nude images
of those they were surveying in the "Optic Nerve" program for their private
collections (I couldn't find source for that, though, so take it with a grain
of salt).

The general pattern to observe: The combination of power and secrecy fosters
abuse.

[1] [http://www.wired.com/2014/02/no-fly-list-
bungle/](http://www.wired.com/2014/02/no-fly-list-bungle/)

[2]
[http://www.salon.com/2012/04/08/u_s_filmmaker_repeatedly_det...](http://www.salon.com/2012/04/08/u_s_filmmaker_repeatedly_detained_at_border/)
\- Note that this was years before her involvement with the Snowden leaks.

------
locusm
Countdown to these laws being used for copyright prevention. Lazarus should
stick to oval shaped balls.

~~~
marcosdumay
I don't think anybody in power cares about copyrights at all.

Copyright protection is just a great excuse for enabling widespread
eavesdropping and history rewriting. But there is no reason to run it the
other way around.

~~~
locusm
They will when the US Govt lobbies for them on behalf of the RIAA. Expect a 3
strike law like New Zealand got.

------
danford
Have these programs been responsible for actually stopping any large scale
terrorist attacks?

~~~
freakonom
An answer that usually works:

Absolutely, because there have been no large scale terrorist attacks.

~~~
jmadsen
"Why are you waving that handkerchief?"

"Keeping the elephants away..."

You know the rest.

~~~
vacri
The thing is that they have been doing just fine with their current powers -
there is no need to expand them. I have no doubt that actual terrorist
plotting has been countered by ASIO, but I also have no doubt that ASIO
clearly already have enough powers to do their job appropriately.

~~~
Ygg2
Implying that there is such a thing as just enough power.

------
flinkblinkhink
Labor opposition - a contradiction in terms.

------
massappeal
do not want

