
Journalist goes undercover making the iPhone 5 at Foxconn - ukdm
http://www.geek.com/articles/mobile/journalist-goes-undercover-making-the-iphone-5-at-foxconn-20120912/
======
deelowe
This "journalist" puts 1 single Chinese company under a microscope and incites
people of first world nations to pick up their pitch forks and torches in
protest. Sure the conditions at Foxconn are terrible in comparison to my world
view, but I'm not Chinese and my world view is irrelevant here. You know how I
know this article is trash? This statement right here: "It also appears that
windows have had bars put over them in an attempt to cut down on suicides."
The suicide thing was covered pretty well recently and my recollection was
that the workers of Foxconn were threatening suicide in a round about way of
collective bargaining. Foxconn handled the situation very poorly and it's been
a huge fiasco ever since. My understanding from the follow-up articles I read
is that there is nothing abnormal about actual suicide rates at Foxconn when
compared to any other company.

Let's be real here. What matters is how Foxconn compares to other Chinese
factories. For all I know, Foxconn could be providing better pay, better
living conditions, and better benefits than every other Chinese company.
However, since there's nothing in this article to give me a better
perspective, I have no way of knowing. There's no reason to expect Foxconn to
act any differently than any other Chinese company. The issue here is the
Chinese government and their lack of concern for fair and equal treatment of
workers. Don't blame Foxconn simply because they make Apple products when they
are doing the same thing as every other Chinese company.

Also, what's with this fixation on Foxconn and Apple? Foxconn does a whole
hell of a lot more than just assembling ipads and iphones. I'm sure Apple
accounts for but a small fraction of their total revenue.

~~~
Vivtek
_what's with this fixation on Foxconn and Apple?_

Apple is the most successful business in history. They have literally billions
of dollars in the bank. The fact that they have reached this position by
exploiting international labor conditions is dissonant with the glowing
opinion of them in the American press. It is seen as hypocritical.

From your tone, I infer that you think you may agree - but that you feel
conflict, and conceal that from yourself by lashing out at the messenger.

It is _not_ a valid excuse to say they're Chinese, any more than it is valid
to allow West Virginian mine workers to die of black lung to provide cheap
heat for Philadelphia.

Injustice doesn't have to be in your own street for it to be injustice.

~~~
deelowe
Injustice means one thing for me and another for someone living in China. I
have no idea what the standard of living is over there for a typical factory
worker. Is it better or worse than the alternatives? I don't know. Foxconn
could be a pioneer of beter living and working conditions for the country and
I'd never know it. I'm biased towards a first world view on these matters.
Everything must be considered when doing these types of comparisons, but there
is no comparison here, just an editorial on how deplorable working conditions
are. Again, at Foxconn _in China_. I assume Foxconn factories aren't this way
in other countries with better labor laws.

My stance is that this is an issue the government needs to resolve. It's
unreasonable to expect Apple or Foxconn to do anything about this on their own
accord. I doubt they are behaving any differently than any other company with
manufacturing operations over there. There's no need to crucify Apple or
Foxconn over this.

~~~
jrwoodruff
_Injustice means one thing for me and another for a negro. I have no idea what
the standard of living is for typical negros. Is it better or worse than the
alternatives? I don't know. Confederate cotton farmers could be a pioneer of
better living and working conditions for negros I'd never know it. I'm biased
towards a Union view on these matters. Everything must be considered when
doing these types of comparisons, but there is no comparison here, just an
editorial on how deplorable working conditions are. Again, on confederate
cotton farms. I assume cotton farms aren't this way all over the country. My
stance is that this is an issue the government needs to resolve. It's
unreasonable to expect cotton farmers or t-shirt manufacturers to do anything
about this on their own accord. I doubt they are behaving any differently than
any other company with cotton manufacturing operations. There's no need to
crucify cotton farmers or t-shirt manufacturers over this._

Sounds kinda ridiculous when you change a coupla words, no?

~~~
philwelch
You're comparing impoverished people taking jobs of their own free will to
chattel slavery?

~~~
Vivtek
If, as you say, they're impoverished, how free is their will?

Are they 90% free? 50%?

~~~
mseebach
100%. It's not the number or attractiveness of options that make you unfree,
it's the guy with the rifle who shoots you if you "quit".

------
Tyrannosaurs
Anyone who has significant issues with this needs to stop buying anything
marked made in China.

There are some interesting bits in there from the perspective of understanding
the manufacturing process, but in terms of the worker conditions and so on,
it's nothing new and anyone for whom this is news has presumably been hiding
under a rock for the last couple of years and making a concious effort not to
think about how certain countries can make things this cheaply.

That's not to make light of the conditions, just to say that we're all
somewhat complicit and any outrage needs to be matched with action, not just
against Apple but against anyone using Foxconn or their peers.

~~~
peterwwillis
So your philosophy is to ignore the things you don't like? That may help you
sleep better at night, but the world doesn't stop turning when you close your
eyes. IMHO a better philosophy is accept the hypocrisy of willful indifference
or try to make a difference. I don't find willful indifference to be 'action'.

~~~
epo
Big words. The Internet is full of windbags asserting we need to make a
difference. Notice how none of these people ever seem to attempt to do so?
They usually limit themselves to vacuous back-of-a-cornflake-packet, trendy
posturing like this.

~~~
peterwwillis
...Which is why the first option in my philosophy is accepting the hypocrisy.
I actually am totally fine with slave labor because it's much easier than the
latter option: doing something about it.

~~~
Tyrannosaurs
Why's it hypocrisy?

Simply doing nothing is only hypocritical if that's contrary to other actions
or statements I make.

~~~
peterwwillis
Doing nothing _as an action_ is hypocritical because it's not really an
action. You're declaring you are trying to do something [to rectify that which
you object to], but in fact are not doing anything. It's like a politician
saying "i'm going on a fact-finding mission to resolve this issue of pollution
of the watershed", when in fact they have no intent of finding any facts or
solving any issues. But it sounds nice.

I guess my point is I find embracing consumerism at the expense of cheap labor
to be more honest than refusing to admit my role in not being a solution.

~~~
Tyrannosaurs
Doing nothing is an action if it's a concious decision rather than just
idleness.

You need to distinguish "I believe there are things I can do but I'm not doing
them" (which is hypocrisy) with "I've thought about it and I don't think there
is any meaningful action I can take" (which isn't).

I think I'm in the second camp. I may be wrong in my assessment of the
situation and what I can do, but if that's true it's misguided rather than
hypocrisy.

------
terhechte
After the mess that was the last Apple Foxconn story, and with all the
economic pressure that affects newspapers & news media, it becomes
increasingly difficult for me to believe stories like these. It's not that I
don't suppose that there're bad working conditions at Foxconn - there probably
are. No, it's that even if the journalist in this story managed to sneak in,
and work there, he probably added tons of hyperbole and wrong encounters into
his story, just to make it all the more dramatic. Otherwise, nobody would be
interested in it, nobody would read it, and there'd be no money.

I really think it's hard to believe journalists these days, especially if the
stories are unheard of and outrageous. The decline of advertising money and
newspaper subscriptions has lead to a decline of journalistic integrity and
objectivism, I think.

Addendum, I studied journalism & communication, most of my friends are
journalists, and I'd say they try hard, but the economic pressure sounds
untenable sometimes. Some of them earn so little money, that I wonder how they
even manage to pay rent.

~~~
tatsuke95
> _"I really think it's hard to believe journalists these days, especially if
> the stories are unheard of and outrageous."_

You really think piss-poor working conditions in Second-World factories are
"unheard of and outrageous"? It's been going on for centuries. Sure, this
story was impeccably timed, and I'm sure there are liberties taken here and
there, but that's because running a magazine/newspaper is a business. That
doesn't provide carte blanche to deny that there is truth behind the writing.
I think it's a dangerous precedent when the populace begins to say, "you can't
believe the media". In fact, I'm sure that there are terrible governments
around the world that would _love_ the population to think that way.

I'm a big believer in capitalism and globalization, so I think that, net,
having these factories in China is beneficial. But I also don't disclaim that
they are probably horrible, unhealthy places to work. How much responsibility
is Apple's, and how much is China's is the important question.

~~~
terhechte
I also think that it's dangerous to not trust media anymore. I was expressing
my fear that that might happen. I don't think the working conditions are
outrageous, I also don't think that they're piss-poor though. Relative to the
environment (china) they may be not so bad. I was saying that media is trying
to market it as outrageous to generate higher sales.

This may be a cultural thing, but while I do believe in free markets and
capitalism, I think that there're certain parts of society which need to be
handled separately as the optimization for economic success (the cheaper the
better) doesn't fare well (imho) with health and media. I like the approach of
the UK, where the BBC is state paid but not state controlled. But this is a
huge separate discussion and I can understand different viewpoints here and
I'm afraid it's often about cultural differences which viewpoint we chose.

------
aneth4
A few things to note: \- The job was taken voluntarily \- The employee can
resign at any time \- The pay is not horrible. $2/hr for overtime is very high
for China, and much higher than could be made at most jobs outside of
professional occupations in major cities.

Working in a factory in China is not a glorious undertaking, but it is not (in
this case) slave labor nor is it unethical.

The author suggests robots could do this, but instead they use humans - as if
it were a horrible thing to voluntarily employ humans. Do you think those
earning a living there would prefer to be fired and replaced by robots?

There are horrible situations in China - like the gulag prison labor system.
There are certainly factories where children are put to work unethically and
illegally (as there are in the US). This article however exposes nothing
alarming.

~~~
sjwright
This.

And besides, isn't Apple something like 0.001% of Chinese manufacturing
output? Apple isn't the problem; if anything Apple may well be the strongest
force for positive change at Foxconn.

~~~
AndyNemmity
And Apple is the strongest force for positive change at Foxconn because of
articles like this.

~~~
sjwright
I guess all Apple could ask is that we share the love. :-D

------
kokey
The interesting part here is that they have 48 low paid workers with some good
QA instead of setting up a robot to do a particular task.

Setting up automation will become quicker and cheaper, forcing the labour
alternative to become even cheaper and more demanding to compete with that.
This is what is happening.

As this progresses, fewer people will be willing to work for that pay or under
those conditions. Then these jobs will go away.

This is a good thing, but bad if you are used to slower technological progress
where you can always make ends meet by taking up some low paid low skill jobs.

------
relix
$2 an hour? That's more than minimum wage in Estonia, a European Union country
with most likely higher cost of living than China.

~~~
sp332
That was his pay for overtime. I don't think they were paying him time-and-a-
half, in fact I think they probably paid him less for the overtime. So I'm
guessing he made more than $2/hr for most of that 10 days.

~~~
knwang
Foxxcoon pays about 400 USD a month -
[http://www.nytimes.com/2012/02/19/technology/foxconn-to-
rais...](http://www.nytimes.com/2012/02/19/technology/foxconn-to-raise-
salaries-for-workers-by-up-to-25.html)

and if that's for 7 days a week 10 hours a day as the reporter said, that's
300 hours.. so 1.33 dollars per hour.

BTW, the typical salary range for a junior Ruby dev in a second or third tier
city in China is about 800 - 1600 USD per month. Just to put things in
perspectives

~~~
monochromatic
What's the typical wage for unskilled labor? That seems like a more relevant
data point.

~~~
sp332
Elsewhere in this thread: <https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4510271> It's
not bad.

------
corin_
> _The work is clearly very stressful and the pay is terrible. The example the
> journalist gave was two hours of overtime earning him just $4._

Can anyone give any context of how bad this actually is? Obviously it's not as
terrible as if somebody got paid $4 for two hours of overtime here in the UK,
in terms of average wage and typical cost of living, but no idea how much less
bad it is..

~~~
alexlawford
It's not too bad. That works out at about 12.5 RMB / hour, more than someone
would make working a night shift at KFC here in Guizhou (I expect in Shen Zhen
it would be a little higher). I work at a coffee shop owned by my friend here;
6 - 10 RMB / hour is quite typical for unskilled labour. Also, chances are
that these factory workers have free accomodation and subsidised food which
makes a significant difference.

The journalist also notes that "there aren’t enough workers to fill the
positions at the factory as they keep resigning". This doesn't neccessarily
mean its a bad place to work. I hardly have any friends that haven't quit at
least one job in the last year or two. Modern Chinese culture -- particularly
among young people -- accepts quitting your job, messing around for a few
months ("playing" in Chinese) and then finding another as quite normal.

~~~
kokey
How many people do you think are migrant workers? People who come from an area
where that pay is a lot more than they get back home, work for a certain
period of time before resigning. Then they either go back home or find a
better paying job in the new area.

Having been a migrant worker myself, I think this is a great way for the
mobility of young people, especially when the jobs offer accommodation too.

------
podperson
This sounds horrible. I would hate to do it. But it actually sounds much less
bad than working in an order fulfillment warehouse in the United States (at
least you can go home to sleep, I guess).

[http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2012/02/mac-
mcclelland-f...](http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2012/02/mac-mcclelland-
free-online-shipping-warehouses-labor)

Amazon is a market leader too, and there's almost no coverage of how it treats
its workers. Likewise Google and Samsung (the latter is considered unusually
bad, having engaged in coverups).

~~~
guelo
America's 40 hour work week, overtime rules, break requirements, chemical
handling safety rules and a bunch of other OSHA regulations make the worst
American job infinitely better.

------
tluyben2
If that is true, why don't they have robots already? I know they are
planning[1], however that kind of work seems to be very easily replaced by a
robot (who will have a far higher accuracy and less failure rate than humans
especially for the task the journalist describes).

[1] [http://spectrum.ieee.org/automaton/robotics/industrial-
robot...](http://spectrum.ieee.org/automaton/robotics/industrial-
robots/foxconn-to-replace-human-workers-with-one-million-robots)

~~~
drharris
Simple; it's cheaper in the near-term. Keep production flowing while you
figure out the automation side.

~~~
tluyben2
But for this PARTICULAR example, is it cheaper? I know a bit about robot
hacking, not industrial mind you, but this would be a rather trivial machine
which could probably replace that entire production line? You might know more
than me about it though :)

~~~
taligent
That's a 'trivial machine' that you have to design, implement, test and most
importantly maintain.

Humans don't have those sort of problems.

~~~
drharris
Training, QA, lunch breaks, maximum daily working hours, overtime, etc. There
are benefits and losses on both sides.

------
PetrolMan
Forget Apple for a moment.

I don't understand why so many people are trying to defend the working
conditions. Fine, the conditions may be considered fine in the context of
China. That does not make them acceptable; it just means that the working
conditions in China as a whole are bad.

If I'm honest, I had not ever considered the plight of the Chinese factory
worker. I use things everyday that are manufactured in China under conditions
that might be worse than those at Foxconn. That being said, this article was
useful in that it opened my eyes a bit. This isn't to say that I thought the
working conditions were probably great. I just had never considered them at
all. It's quite easy to live in a bubble and sometimes articles like this help
break out of it.

------
amalag
So are Chinese upset at Apple, Foxconn, their government, their situation, or
their communist totalitarian system?

~~~
taligent
None of the above. They want work. And this is work that is much better than
flipping burgers at McDonalds.

Remember that some of these people might end up designing and producing the
products of the future as well. I know if I was 18 I would jump at the chance
to take a job like this.

------
sapuser
Some of the commentary is sad.

Injustice is injustice no matter where it happens.

The reality is that masses of people in third world countries are exploited
and they don't have very many options to do otherwise. The governments and
multinational companies are very interested in maintaining this status quo --
that is how you can earn billion (get cheap labor for low costs and sell at
high prices).

Apple doesn't sell their products at 1/5th the price in the US to reflect the
local rates (for that matter most things like a Mercedes would sell for the
same international price). The point is that a large section of world
population is denied many benefits simply because where they are (think about
the quality of medical treatment in the US vs a place like China or India or
Uganda).

It is in one's interest to ensure access to all such services/products at low
cost (subsidized by someone else) while ensuring comparatively high
compensation due to residence in a first world nation.

Hopefully the inequity will grow smaller over time.

------
staunch
It'd be so amazing if Apple decided to move all their manufacturing to the US.
It seems impossible, but it's Apple, they have the money and ability to do it.
It might take 10 years and lower their margins in the short-term, but I bet
through automation they could eventually achieve parity with outsourcing. Not
to mention that federal/state/local governments would be willing to grant
massive incentives to make it happen. Hell, they could even add an optional
$50 Made In America fee to every device for a while and a huge number of
people would pay it.

Like every other technology hardware company they're addicted to cheap labor.
Super automated factories are obviously where things are headed. Apple could
lead the way in yet another way. In fact it's one thing Tim Cook could
probably get done even better than Steve Jobs could have.

------
hcarvalhoalves
I like how how they try to point those things back at Apple, but the fact is,
everything built on China is the same. Foxconn is rich because they do that,
and China is rich because all factories do that.

China is a regime, and it's convenient for the west that it stays that way.
It's a source of inexpensive labour force and a place you can pollute building
your gadgets. If they were to follow the most strict rules from EU/US, there's
no way in hell that you would have access to cheap electronics.

Now I ask: would you exchange first world conditions for those workers for
more expensive products? The majority of us consumers don't have a clue, we
just go for what has a good cost/benefit. Ethics often isn't a factor on where
we spend our money.

------
bgraves
The Apple Supplier Responsibility 2012 Progress Report [1] is worth a read.

[1]
[http://images.apple.com/supplierresponsibility/pdf/Apple_SR_...](http://images.apple.com/supplierresponsibility/pdf/Apple_SR_2012_Progress_Report.pdf)

------
mun2mun
People who are in disgust in Foxconn incident should also look into the
factories where cloths they were wearing are made
[http://www.pbs.org/wnet/religionandethics/episodes/may-18-20...](http://www.pbs.org/wnet/religionandethics/episodes/may-18-2012/cambodia-
garment-worker-justice/11033/). It is standard rule in capitalization.
Businesses have to get goods/materials from the cheapest source available. No
questions asked about how the supplier achieves it as long as it doesn't get
worse. And yes, this article is pure propaganda stunt.

~~~
yread
And sometimes suppliers also save on fire safety with some disastrous
consequences

[http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/sep/12/pakistan-
factory...](http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/sep/12/pakistan-factory-
fires-karachi-lahore)

------
jlmendezbonini
I recommended everyone to watch this TED talk:

[http://www.ted.com/talks/leslie_t_chang_the_voices_of_china_...](http://www.ted.com/talks/leslie_t_chang_the_voices_of_china_s_workers.html)

"In the ongoing debate about globalization, what's been missing is the voices
of workers -- the millions of people who migrate to factories in China and
other emerging countries to make goods sold all over the world. Reporter
Leslie T. Chang sought out women who work in one of China's booming
megacities, and tells their stories."

------
mortalkastor
I'm appalled by the comments here. The consensus seems to be that the terrible
working condition of the people making our favorite gadgets doesn't matter and
shouldn't get coverage because you can find even poorer conditions in the same
country.

Fucking hippies lamenting over the lot of a few Chinese working 10 h/day in a
toxic prison factory while they are not even totally enslaved.

------
sneak
Gee, I wonder why this was released today.

~~~
mtgx
Maximum impact.

------
adrianwaj
There should be a site: foxconnsponsors.com - something akin to sponsoring a
child (World Vision). Maybe Apple can setup the site - iWorkers.com and you
get to see pictures through your iPhone of how these iWorkers' lives have been
transformed through iWorkers.com. Heck, make it accept bitcoins.

------
jstalin
Yet, working there is still better than manual labor and malnutrition in the
countryside...

------
madmaze
Here is a very interesting story on the flip side of this article

[http://www.ted.com/talks/leslie_t_chang_the_voices_of_china_...](http://www.ted.com/talks/leslie_t_chang_the_voices_of_china_s_workers.html)

------
smoyer
What's amazing to me is that they can actually manually make a device that, at
least on the outside has almost perfect fit-and-finish. You'd think the
inaccuracies would accumulate and produce the typical cheap knock-off look.

~~~
damian2000
I don't think they make the backplate manually ... they're just putting some
sort of pen mark on it ... probably in preparation for some other process down
the line.

------
qdpb
> There’s also details given of 70 ways you can incur a penalty, but only 13
> ways to earn a reward.

To be fair, at my job it's more like 100 and 1.

------
chaostheory
The part I find strange is a reporter, who lives in a totalitarian country,
was able to do an expose. I wonder how he got authorization?

~~~
arrrg
China is not totalitarian. It's a prime example of an authoritarian regime.

Of course, in the end it's all just a spectrum. Totalitarian regimes are just
very extreme authoritarian regimes. Modern China, however, is far from being
comparable to historic or current totalitarian regimes.

~~~
chaostheory
Well I'm still surprised an authoritarian regime, or however anyone would
classify China, would allow such an exposé.

------
senthilnayagam
it is a underpaid sweat shop worker in a developing country or a robotic
manufacturing in a developed nation, one thing for sure manufacturing jobs are
not coming back to America.

there is empirical evidence to suggest very successful companies get more bad
press, Apple(for foxconn working conditions), Amazon(for temp warehouse jobs)
being leading example.

------
api
I think we need conscious consumerism in the electronics industry just like we
have now in food, clothing, etc. I think a lot of people would consider
electronics made with first-world labor practices and livable wages. It would
be a bit more expensive and niche at first, but it would make an impression.

This is an area where Google and/or an Android vendor could make a splash.
"Fair trade" gadgets?

------
gambiting
I quite literally get sick reading this. In Poland, which is in the middle of
Europe,and which is a part of European Union and all, there are people who
don't earn as much per hour as guys at Foxconn do. It's not uncommon for
people to earn 5PLN/hour,which is actually less than 2 USD/hour. And these
guys get 4 dollars per hour, have a place to stay,a place to do sports and
food to eat, and you call it inhumane and horrible? I think you need to take a
long hard look at yourself,not everybody lives in highly developed countries
like UK and US, not earning 20 dollars/hour is not the end of the world, like
seriously.

