

Researchers 'speak' to dolphins in their own language - auxbuss
http://wakeup-world.com//2011/11/28/the-discovery-of-dolphin-language/

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todayiamme
I don't intend this as an ad hominem, but is there any independent
verification of this research?

It might just be me, but it's hard not to be skeptical given that that the
website has a banner declaring a campaign to end "chemtrails" and its sidebar
is devoted to article topics such as "Ancient Aliens".

~~~
rms
I linked to the original source below, which is a little woo-ey in spirit, but
seems sincere, at least. I agree it's unfortunate that this isn't already
wrapped in the language of science and academia, but if these results are true
that should happen well within the next decade. I think the point of
skepticism or thing to investigate is the CymaScope -- where there is room to
falsify these results, it is via that device.
<http://www.cymascope.com/cetacean.html>

~~~
todayiamme
As Figs [1], jgeralnik, and CWuestefeld [2] have pointed out there might also
be a huge problem in their methodology.

Let's say that we have created an immersive environment for a mouse, so that
we can replay what the mouse would see if it saw a piece of cheese similar to
the way they've played back that sonar ping. If the mouse starts running
towards it/"identifies" it, would that mean the mouse has developed a complex
visual language? No, it would just mean that the mouse has seen the cheese!

Unless they have conclusive proof that a dolphin directly sends a pre-
modulated imprint of the object it just revealed, then their experiment is
probably making a similar mistake somewhere or the other.

I think that there is a better way to design this experiment. One of the
better ways to conclusively test this hypothesis would be to teach a dolphin
tool use to get food and see if it can teach others to do the same. To ensure
that simple imitation isn't going on, we could keep a hydrophone immersed for
the entire duration and continually record what's happening.

If other dolphins learn how to use the tool, then I would move on to the next
step and see if they can work together in teams. If they display co-ordination
then we would have conclusive proof of language use.

Has anyone ever done rigorous research like this?

[1] <http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3315023> [2]
<http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3314522>

~~~
Figs
Well, we already know that they can use tools and teach each other (somehow)
how to use tools: <http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn7475> and they've
been trained to follow some pretty complex commands (e.g. make up your own
jump and can synchronize it with other dolphins):
<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HQ38sycAITQ>

So, we already know they can coordinate, but it's not clear if there's
communication ("hey, let's do XYZ") or if they're just very quick at imitation
("Hmm, looks like Akeakamai is going to do XYZ, better do XYZ").

~~~
todayiamme
Perhaps what we could do is set up an arena and force them to work together as
a team. If we design the experiment with care then we might be able to settle
the question of imitation vs. communication.

For example if we hide food beneath inside a container and put several such
containers in a grid then we could see if they co-ordinate the search. We
could control for imitation by making the pool pitch black _and_ covering the
dolphin's eyes, thus forcing them to use echolocation extensively, which we
should be able to capture. If we can track the direction and the nature of the
clicks as well as the position and subsequent actions of the dolphins after
making them, then we might be able to answer this question.

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mise
To portray imagined objects to other dolphins, are they suggesting that the
dolphin can imitate the 'sound echo' directly from their vocal clicks?

Therefore their clicks would have two functions: to make echos reflect from
objects around them, and to imitate those echos later on?

~~~
PerryCox
That was my understanding of it, but I could be completely wrong.

~~~
bmuon
+1 but the article isn't very clear about it

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rms
This seems to be the original source: I emailed the researcher and asked him
to share the full results.
<http://www.speakdolphin.com/ResearchItems.cfm?ID=20>

~~~
Figs
_Dolphins in two separate research centers understood the words, presenting
convincing evidence that dolphins employ a universal sono-pictorial language
of communication._

Hmm... I would have assumed that interpreting dolphin sounds as pictures is
the first thing you'd try after realizing they can echolocate... Is this
really the first time that's been explored? Or is it just that no one's been
able to figure out how to reconstruct an image properly from dolphin clicks,
but it was already a widely suspected possibility for a long time? (I'm not
really up to date with dolphin research, unfortunately.)

If they're right about this line of reasoning, then I wouldn't be surprised at
all if they come back and point out an animation structure soon (akin to sound
detection of a moving object over time) -- and if _that's_ the case, I'd bet
you that it isn't "universal", and that different groups of dolphins will have
different variants in how they communicate more complex concepts. For example,
one group might give an animation of a dolphin swimming around something in
one direction a meaning that a different group might disagree with. Another
sort of animation that might be interesting to look for would be a change in
the composition/texture of an object (e.g. animation of dolphin turning to
stone, or stone turning into dolphin or something like that). It seems
reasonable to me that even if you communicate in animated 3d images, you'd
probably still have to have some less literal meanings too... and the sorts of
things you could represent with something like that could get pretty complex,
actually.

~~~
epicureanideal
Hopefully the depopulation of the dolphin species
(<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dolphin_drive_hunting>) has not caused
significant loss of any complex language developed over time.

[In response to responder: Actually I think developing complex language with
something like this would be relatively easy. With human language we can't
just show a series of events with our words, people need to experience the
things with us and then we develop common words to describe them again later.
With their system of communication it seems that they could describe pretty
much anything they'd find notable and also easily abstract things by just
making their clicks less specific or by blending a few specific examples as a
form of abstraction. Actually I'd bet on blending first, maybe even a literal
superposition of all the possibilities or several of them. Also they might be
able to communicate by acting things out physically while they are sounding
things out. The combination could be pretty powerful for expression.]

~~~
rms
I'm still quite skeptical that the dolphins have complex shared language with
features like recursion, but it's possible that the storytelling via pictures
could get complex... I guess we'll see.

~~~
simcop2387
It may be possible, but I can imagine that it would be very very difficult for
us to grasp since if this research is verified we'd likely have so little in
common linguistically. It strikes me as kind of like "Darmok and Jalad at
Tanagra".

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jgeralnik
They reflected sounds off of objects and played them back. This is not a
language, that's how echolocation works!

~~~
CWuestefeld
This is how I read it, too.

It sounds like they showed the dolphin a picture, just using an auditory
representation rather than graphical. Then the dolphin pointed to the depicted
object.

I'm pretty sure that a human baby, without any language skills, could do the
same if the depiction were graphical.

It seems to me that they've found out something about the dolphin perceptual
system. This is interesting, but I don't see what it has to do with language.

~~~
saulrh
The trick is that they've observed the dolphins doing the same thing. We've
just demonstrated that they can coherently transfer nouns. That's a big deal.

~~~
CWuestefeld
I agree that it's interesting. I just don't see that it's language.

Consider this [1] article on language, discussing the properties of language.
It seems that what has been discovered fails this in at least two ways. We
haven't demonstrated, or even claimed, any sort of grammar; and what's being
communicated isn't symbolic, but directly representational.

\- - QUOTE - -

Languages are not just sets of symbols. They also contain a grammar, or system
of rules, used to manipulate the symbols. While a set of symbols may be used
for expression or communication, it is primitive and relatively unexpressive,
because there are no clear or regular relationships between the symbols.
Because a language also has a grammar, it can manipulate its symbols to
express clear and regular relationships between them.

...

Another important property of language is the arbitrariness of the symbols.
Any symbol can be mapped onto any concept (or even onto one of the rules of
the grammar). For instance, there is nothing about the Spanish word nada
itself that forces Spanish speakers to use it to mean nothing. That is the
meaning all Spanish speakers have memorized for that sound pattern. But for
Croatian speakers nada means hope.

\- - END QUOTE - -

[1]
[http://psychology.wikia.com/wiki/Language#Properties_of_lang...](http://psychology.wikia.com/wiki/Language#Properties_of_language)

~~~
VladRussian
>Another important property of language is the arbitrariness of the symbols.
Any symbol can be mapped onto any concept (or even onto one of the rules of
the grammar). For instance, there is nothing about the Spanish word nada
itself that forces Spanish speakers to use it to mean nothing.

How about "mother", "no" sounding so similar in multitude of completely
different languages? Your quote mistakenly attributes a property of human's
mind - the ability to separate meaning from symbol - as a property of
language. Shaka, when the walls fell.

~~~
bh42222
_How about "mother", "no" sounding so similar in multitude of completely
different languages?_

How many languages are we talking about. The Indo-European languages cover
most of Eurasia excluding the far east. They are similar because they are
related.

I imagine other large language families on other continents are also related.
How similar are "mother" and "no" or "yes" in languages which share no
relation? Aboriginal and Spanish? Basque and Japanese? Bantu and Inuit? The
click language of the bushmen and Mandarin Chinese? Etc..

~~~
VladRussian
[http://www.mothersdaycelebration.com/mother-in-different-
lan...](http://www.mothersdaycelebration.com/mother-in-different-
languages.html)

" The slight smacking movement of the lips made in uttering an m-sound is
similar to the lip movement required to suck a nipple."

<http://www.billcasselman.com/wording_room/mother.htm>

~~~
bh42222
From your top link:

Africaans is a dialect of Dutch - European language.

Albanian - European.

Arabic - the first non Indo-European language in this list and what do you
know, no leading "m-sound". More like the opposite of that.

Aymara, Azeri and Basque are also all non Indo-European and what do you, also
no leading "m-sound".

The list continues with a whole pile of Slavic and other European language,
holy crap "mother" in Bosnian and Bulgarian sounds really similar - what a
shock!

I'm just scanning through the list now, Hawaiian seems to be the firs non
Indo-European language to have the "ma" sound. I bet if you look you'll find
the "ma" sound in whole pile of other Hawaiian words too! Are they all about
sucking?

Hungarian is _in_ Europe but is a Finno-Uguric language and again no
"m-sound".

Indonesian no "ma" sound. And I'm tired of proving my point.

This "the sound of the world for mother is similar to suckling" seems like
utter bullshit to me.

Leading with the m-sound just happens to be common in the Indo-European
language family.

And I don't even know what the heck your second link is!?

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jaimefournier
Now to setup buoys around Japanese fishing grounds that echo "Danger!"

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jamesbritt
Interesting. Dupe: <http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3312324>

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jackgavigan
Let's hope they figure out the rest of the dolphins' vocabulary before they
tell us "So Long, and Thanks for All the Fish!"

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itmag
Uplifting, anyone?

Pump the 'phins full of nootropics and start teaching them useful stuff :)

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blindhippo
Darwin love Bridger

