
40% of foreign students in the US have no close American friends on campus - pmcpinto
https://qz.com/31376/40-of-foreign-students-in-the-us-have-no-close-friends-on-campus-the-culture-shock-of-loneliness/
======
habosa
It seems obvious that a huge (and hard to solve) reason for this is simply
language! There are many levels of language proficiency:

    
    
       Level 1: Can read and write it at your own pace
       Level 2: Can comfortably converse in a professional setting (little slang or cultural knowledge needed)
       Level 3: Can comfortably converse in a social setting (slang, faster speech, less clarification)
       Level 4: Can do all of the above passively, being able to pick up valuable information just by overhearing conversation without focused metal effort
       Level 5: Ability to do all of the above in a noisy and hectic situation (like a party, sporting event, etc)
    

It's really, really hard to make good friends without getting to Level 4 or 5.
I work with many people for whom English is a second language. At work they
don't miss a beat and are great teammates. But it can fall apart in a social
setting. Once there are 5 overlapping streams of conversation stuffed full of
cultural references these coworkers of mine very frequently lose track of the
conversation and become quieter and quieter over time.

I bet you'd find that this 40% number is much different for students studying
abroad in a country where their native language is common. My US friends who
moved to the UK or Australia had no problem making friends.

~~~
morgante
I'm not convinced that language is actually such an essential aspect. Cultural
similarity seems like a much bigger one.

For example, I've seen Indians with great English struggle a lot more to fit
in and acclimate than French students with poor English but more shared
cultural touchstones. As an American, I've found it to be much easier to make
friends with Europeans than with students from non-Western cultures—even after
controlling for English levels.

~~~
31reasons
I agree to this. As a Non western student I never had any American friends in
Collage. After more than a decade living in the US I still don't have any.
Primarily because I am introverted but culturally I care less about American
sports and music (two big cultural domains).

Edit: Another important factor (at least during collage) is the financial one.
As a student from a poor country I had far less financial resources to afford
a life style that American students enjoy. For example, I couldn't afford to
go out or have a Car.

~~~
rootsudo
you do know that many Americans don't focus heavily on American sports and
music? As someone who was born in the USA and raised, I have zero interest in
sports. Music, I have a fleeting interest due to it's global acceptance.

Financially, not all Americans are rich or come from 2 income households. Alot
of 18yr olds+ celebrate independence by moving out, taking a crappy local job
at a fast food or retail and still, make American friends.

Introvertness isn't an issue, did you actually try? There are so many clubs
that allow anyone to join and be friends. From meetup.com to local bookclubs.

But, we're also forgetting the big issue. Being American isn't like most
countries in the world where you're born into a homogenous society. If you've
lived more than a decade in the USA, and are a citizen, congratulations!
You're a citizen, if any of your friends who aren't native born but also
become naturalized, congratulations they're Americans!

Of course, I, know nothing of your background, so the above is all
assumptions.

But, I felt like having to write this, as I wrap up spending 6 months in
Japan.

~~~
vlunkr
"Introvertness isn't an issue, did you actually try?"

I don't think you understand introvertedness.

------
Bartweiss
People should know the Quartz headline is wrong.

Follow the source link and you find that 40% have no close _American_ friends,
which is different from "friends on campus". I checked the source looking for
a baseline (how many domestic students have no close friends) and discovered
that it was specifically about international students making friends with
Americans.

> "Nearly 40 percent of the survey respondents had no close American friends
> and would have liked more meaningful interaction with people born here"

This is a very different result - still important, but the corrected stat and
the free-response listed in the source make clear that we're looking at a
different question than simple loneliness.

edit: The HN headline has been updated, which is great news. Now if only
Quartz could meet the same standards...

~~~
TorKlingberg
This completely invalidates the headline! Go study in Japan or anywhere, and
you will see that foreign students mostly hang out with each other. Certainly
their close friends will be fellow foreign students. This is mostly because
local students already have an established friend group.

Besides, many are on short exchange programmes. How close friends can you
really become during a 1-2 year exchange? How many of those 40% had just
arrived on the last couple of months?

~~~
senthil_rajasek
"Go study in Japan or anywhere, and you will see that foreign students mostly
hang out with each other."

That is not a right comparison. The U.S is not Japan.

~~~
thaumasiotes
Full points for worthless technical accuracy on "the US is not Japan". Zero
points for accuracy of any kind on "the US is not anywhere".

~~~
senthil_rajasek
Yes. If you know any history, the U.S is singular. I deserve more than zero
points for highlighting that.

------
beeftime
Before I got into software development I worked for a South Korean company
that helped high-level students get into American and Canadian universities.
The single biggest source of stress for myself and the other westerners
working there is that the administration's (and the parents'!) only goal was
to get these kids into a school, and absolutely no thought was given to
acclimating them to a different culture or teaching them the skills they would
need to thrive in a very different educational system and social climate. We
(the foreign teachers) would try to sneak cultural lessons in and hold extra
classes about how to join campus organizations and social clubs, and we'd
always get in trouble with the management because "it wasn't important".
There's a very real sense in East Asia that once you get into an American
university that you'll become successful, but some of the brightest kids are
coming back to their home countries with a 2.7GPA, a memory of crushing
loneliness, and many tens of thousands of dollars wasted. It's a solvable
problem that no one is really interested in even examining.

~~~
mtw
I'd say many expat europeans or americans in Asia (Shangai, south korea) don't
make any effort in making close native friends. Many of them prefer to hang
out with people from their own country, or other western people. Only a few
think about "acclimating to a different culture or learn new skills they would
need to thrive in a very different educational system and social climate".

~~~
hocuspocus
I lived 5 years in South Korea, and well:

* It was incredibly easy to meet other foreigners, and not necessarily westerners, far from that actually. I now have genuine friends on every continent.

* Since you're on the same boat, you can relate. Given how unique the work and life environment can be, it's nice to be able to talk with people who'll understand you.

* Making native friends isn't easy, even when you're making real efforts.

I don't have an unlimited amount of energy I can put into socializing, so
after a short while I stopped trying too hard. Even the Korean friends I made
before my move weren't too interested in hanging out once I lived there.

~~~
cgarrigue
I wonder how much it comes from the culture in Korea. I've been living in
Tokyo for 3 years, and although I never to the university here, I my
observations in the country are that: * Korean people tend to stick together
and don't mix much with other nationalities * Chinese people integrate so well
that their Japanese friends and acquaintances barely notice they are not
Japanese. And as they are not afraid to speak in English they're able to make
English speaking friends too. * Unless they had some exposure to western
countries, many Japanese people tend to be superficially friendly due to
keeping their public persona separated from their true feelings (the 2
concepts of tatemae vs honne). And this not specific to making international
friends, as they have themselves the same difficulty making Japanese true
friends. * English speaking foreigners tend to hang out together or with
English speaking Japanese people, unless they're introduced through a friend
to Japanese people who can't speak English.

~~~
beeftime
A great deal of that is probably the tension between the two countries -
Koreans tend to feel it far more personally (they were the ones invaded, after
all). Having lived in Seoul for the same amount of time I'd say the same
thing, only about Japanese. I'd say you're on the money about Chinese folks,
though. Chinese people bring the party with them, for sure.

Koreans have a saying about their neighbors: "The Chinese love you rudely. The
Japanese hate you politely."

------
jusob
I spent a year in US as a foreign student. From my previous experiences
(internships in UK and Germany), I knew it would be difficult to make friends
with "locals". In UK, I was in a dorm during the summer with a private room,
shared bathroom and kitchen. Most people were eating in their room. I finally
made friend with one british guy as he was cooking. He told me later he didn't
think he would make friends during the short summer session, even less with a
foreigner. His girlfriend owned a pub, I had a great summer!

In the US, I didn't realize it would be even more difficult because 90% of the
students in MS are foreigners in the college I attended. Anyway, I decided
that the best way to make American friends was to be with them all day long. I
joined a fraternity on campus.

This was not easy. Most fraternities never had a foreign student, except the
one I was accepted in. Because my english was not great, I focused all my time
on 1 fraternity to increase my chances of being accepted. I was the only
foreigner in all fraternities this week.

It was not always easy, but it was worth it. I joined while doing my MS, all
my brothers where freshmen. We had very different work load and about 4-year
difference. But I did make friends with all of them. I spent Christmas with
one of my friend's family (I didn't leave the US for winter break). It was a
great experience.

I'm rather an introvert. But when you travel in a foreign country, you have to
talk to strangers all the time. Expectations are also lower when you don't
master the language fully. You have to be very direct and explicit in your
communications.

~~~
Symbiote
> In UK, I was in a dorm during the summer with a private room, shared
> bathroom and kitchen.

That's a shame. The kitchens were the most social spaces at my university. I
think taking hot food into rooms was forbidden -- in any case, few did so.

I remember giving my views on plans for new dorms at my university, which were
planned to use small kitchens shared between 4-6 students. I, and many others,
objected -- they were replacing buildings with large kitchens, shared with 20
or more students. Much better for meeting people and making friends. It opened
after I'd graduated, but judging by the pictures, the kitchens are for about
12-14 people, possibly more :-)

------
wizardforhire
Fwiw 10 years ago I was organizing weekly dance parties in a college town. 80%
of our attendance was foreign students. Nightly I would have kids from all
over the world profusiosly thanking me. The bulk of the complements were in
one way another "thank you so much for putting this on I feel like I'm home. I
don't get American culture but I get this." 10 years later I still have people
coming up to me randomly thanking me saying they've stuck around because of
friends they made.

In my limited experience I feel there's a real cultural mis-match with kids
from other countries coming here to study. Most of the kids I met were from
huge cities and the shock of being in a small college town was in many was too
much for them. That and the greek system was overtly hostile to them.

On side a note it's humorous what many kids take back with them from their
time in America. It's worth doing an image search of "American party" to see
what I mean.

~~~
mediocrejoker
Why do you say that the greek system was hostile to foreign students, more so
than the regular social experience of college?

~~~
wizardforhire
Well I'm speaking from experience and this in no way will apply across all
schools or groups. As such I know of some great organizations which have great
missions and members and do great work. That said at this particular
university which was largely greek, the largest fraternities and sororities
were the largest offenders of indoctrinated and systemic racism which had
subsequently seeped into the school culture and administration as a whole.
That school has had numerous national scandals as a direct result. The
scandals are just the instances that get reported and they're just the tip of
the iceberg. Daily life for the kids I knew was fraught with fear and
apprehension. It's also one of the reasons why I think when we were doing our
parties we had so many foreign kids come out and respond the way they did.

~~~
showtimes
What part of the country was this? I find this hard to believe on the west
coast or parts of the east coast (NYE/Boston). If you're talking the South or
midwest then ok it makes sense.

------
pm90
As a former international student, the first year was incredibly lonely as I
used to be a deep introvert. The article mentions some of the obstacles but
perhaps one of biggest ones is being able to communicate well with Americans.
I used to be incredibly anxious about buying groceries simply because I talked
very fast English with a heavy accent. I could _talk_ but not _communicate_ ;
which means that I could convey facts, but I couldn't strike up a conversation
with a stranger, or make a joke. I didn't understand American sarcasm and
would be alarmed by some of the things Americans said. And this is despite me
having pretty good knowledge of English; I can only imagine how hard it must
be for Chinese/Korean etc. students.

The best thing that happened to me was to get an internship in a company where
my team was composed mostly of Americans. I learned how to talk slower and
more importantly, slowly understood sarcasm as well. Perhaps most Americans
don't realize just how much of a shared culture is needed for immigrants to
understand before they can communicate effectively.

~~~
anonyguy1969
The political correctness statement is so spot on. I still struggle with that
till now. People just don't want to talk about certain issues here it seems; a
stark contrast to europeans

~~~
rpearl
Give an example.

~~~
watwut
Not exactly political correctness in left vs right meaning but, where I am
from, you would say something like "I would kill him/you" causally and no one
will think twice. That sort of thing tends to freak out Americans (I know
cause I said it) who tend to take it much more seriously. For me, it was just
causal expression.

Americans expect you to show a lot more enthusiasm then Europeans and if you
don't show it, they will consider you rude and act towards you accordingly.
Every single question is "good question" \- it seemed to be rude to say that
some of them are not good questions even to third parties in social setting.

On political correctness: in my culture, I know maybe one person who would
identify herself as feminist publicly. You are expected to dislike feminism
even when you are pro-equality. It seems to be the opposite in American
liberal campuses (tho radical feminism seems to be waaay more aggressive then
anything I know in here). Moreover, what Americans consider "too revealing"
seems "perfectly normal" to me. I have seen American boys react in surprising
way toward girls that wore mini skirts that were short, but still within
normal range to me.

So, if you want example of political correctness, people from here might
consider it perfectly normal to blame feminity when woman does something
stupid or just makes them angry - that definitely wont fly in many American
groups. That does not necessary means the person who said it is sexist, I
would even say actual sexist tend to be more careful over what they say in my
experience. Nevertheless, American liberals would not accept such thing at
all.

~~~
rpearl
> people from here might consider it perfectly normal to blame feminity when
> woman does something stupid or just makes them angry [...] That does not
> necessary means the person who said it is sexist

I am going to be descriptive here. Non-judgemental. But: that... is sexist. By
definition. It perpetuates the idea that "being a woman" is a thing that can
be blamed for an action. Continuing to talk in that way perpetuates sexism.

> You are expected to dislike feminism even when you are pro-equality.

Again, this is structural/cultural sexism. You might not want to hear that,
and you might not think it's a problem, but that's what it is. So when you
enter a place where the culture is not accepting of that sexism, I don't know
why you should expect not to have backlash if you continue to act like that.

~~~
watwut
I understand the impact you have in mind.

I mostly wanted to distinguish "saying those things as verbal salad" from
"really assuming girls are like that and/or raising girls to be like that".
Kind of like with the "killed him" thing - the person saying the words does
not really think about killing. As in, the person saying it would treat me
equally while different more polite person might not say it out of politeness,
but will treat me like the stereotype. The latter kind exist and is the bigger
threat to me.

I am not saying that our culture does not have elements of sexism in it.

------
dbg31415
When I was in college, circa 20 years ago, I studied Korean. (I had a friend
growing up who was Korean, and he taught me swear words and such, and I
figured if I ever got the chance to study I would.)

Anyway, I was 6 months into a language course that was heavily populated by
US-born Korean students who were taking it for the easy A... I needed a tutor
to keep up so I reached out to the teacher who introduced me to a few Korean
exchange students.

They lived in their own apartment, not the dorms. They cooked their own food,
didn't go to the cafeterias. Fast forward a bit, my fraternity had a charity
event and I invited a few of them... was a casual invite, said something like,
"Hey we're doing this thing, tell your friends!"

A week later at the charity concert like 60 Korean exchange students showed
up. Every single one of them was dressed in a tux or evening gown. Totally
classed up the place. Had no idea there were that many exchange students until
that night.

And they were all really appreciative of the invite. Basically said no one had
invited them to any events on campus before... I met some new folks, knew just
enough Korean at that point to ingratiate myself and get invited out drinking
after the event... and quickly realized I was playing checkers at a chess
tournament when it came to drinking with Koreans. Ha.

Made some friends out of the deal, but it wouldn't have happened without
everyone going outside of their comfort zone a bit.

------
JoeAltmaier
I sometimes work with foreign engineers, often educated in America and working
their first or second job. My wife and I often invite them and their spouse
home for a dinner.

In every case, they mention sometime during the evening that its the first
American home they have ever been inside. After years of school and job.
Every, every case.

Americans, we can do something about this! Invite a newcomer coworker to join
you for dinner! Its so simple.

~~~
mvp
That's a great point.

------
Semaphor
Just an anecdote from a medium sized German town:

We had two big bunches of foreign students, Chinese and US Americans.
Americans organized a lot of parties, the Chinese were hard to engage with. We
had a big international community (language exchange regular meetings,
parties, movies, BBQs, etc.) But the general thing from the Chinese group was
what seemed like shyness. Even when one managed to get them to join, they
tended to leave early and barely interact (not for a lack of trying). There
were exceptions of course, and I'm currently subletting my apartment (while in
another country) to two Chinese students, one of whom turned out to be very
talkative once he opened up. But for the majority I met it's really hard to
get them to get them to open up. There is some cultural barrier that's very
hard to break.

Of course this might be the same for other nationalities, but as those usually
arrived here alone, they didn't have a group of countrymen to fall back to and
I couldn't tell.

------
ChicagoBoy11
I moved to the US when I was 12 and my middle school principal tried finding
someone who spoke my language that I could shadow. She couldn't. Little did I
know then, but I think that it might have been the thing that had the biggest
outcome in my success in the US.

There were other kids who joined the school from other countries right around
the same time as me (we all did ESL together), but they all spoke languages
that were highly represented in the school. Over the years, it was incredibly
noticeable to me how insular they ended up -- hanging out mostly with expat
friends, speaking their native language on breaks, etc.

Meanwhile, I had to try and make American friends any way possible -- which
for me was through our school's robotics club (and since I am typing this
here, you can guess that the rest is history)

I completely understand the way immigrants rightfully treasure and celebrate
their heritage. But I have always found it puzzling -- especially in college
-- to see people from overseas mostly hanging out with their own.

I have heard far too many times how "cold" Americans are, how they aren't
friendly to foreigners, etc. At least in my experience, that could not be
further from the truth. What I HAVE observed is foreigners like myself failing
to leave the safety of their known communities and fulling embracing the
experience they supposedly came here for.

------
010a
I can't generalize for every school, or everyone at every school. I attended
an engineering program at one of the top 5 schools by total international
student population.

Honestly, international students are cliquey. Many of them that I talk to
openly admit to cheating on their english proficiency exams universities
require you to take before you can attend. Meshing with local students is
nearly impossible if you don't understand the language proficiently.

I'd expect you'd see roughly the same numbers if you looked at American
students in Chinese universities, or elsewhere. But we have to make this anti-
American because its Quartz, and Trump is bad, right?

~~~
jogjayr
> international students are cliquey.

It might help if you understand why they're cliquey. Many of them are living
away from home for the first time, so hanging out with familiar faces and
having shared cultural references is comforting (though it sounds wrong). They
may not be as proficient in English as they are in their native tongues, so
they speak their own languages when they're with each other. And of course to
an outsider, a group of people speaking a foreign language seems very
forbidding and closed off. Believe me, they (mostly) don't want to be seen
that way.

I think pretty much every "group" is cliquey. My own Masters class (about
20-25 people, 50-50 American/foreign) splintered into 2-3 disjoint groups
almost immediately after the introductory mixer. I understood and spoke
English fine. But not knowing any American pop culture (music, TV shows, sci-
fi, games etc. and my own introversion, meant I didn't know then how to deal
with people I didn't that have much in common with) meant that I was filtered
out of the most likely "group" (students roughly my age). They may all have
been speaking English but all the alien (to me) cultural references made it
seem forbidding (who's Stephen Colbert? what's Arrested Development? why is it
a faux pas to admit liking Coldplay and U2 and Nickelback?). I ended up
hanging out with other students from my own country.

> I'd expect you'd see roughly the same numbers if you looked at American
> students in Chinese universities, or elsewhere

You're right. Most people struggle to flourish socially in foreign cultures; I
think this is universally true.

> But we have to make this anti-American

I didn't see the article as anti-American at all. It was more "Isn't it
unfortunate how these students are missing out?"

I personally blame myself for my own social isolation during my Masters. I
should've tried harder.

~~~
kop316
Out of curiousity, did you meet or make many American friends? To me, I enjoy
meeting different people from different cultures. I imagine I am not the only
one.

~~~
jogjayr
Not many. I too enjoy meeting people from different cultures but...it's
difficult, for me at least. I mean I find it hard to make friends period,
regardless of culture.

~~~
kop316
I understand that. Going back to your original comment, I think Americans will
understand that you don't get those culturual references, and several will not
mind showing you and helping you. For me it's actually a lot of fun to show
different parts of american cultureand seeing someone else experience it for
the first time (Like here: [https://xkcd.com/1053/](https://xkcd.com/1053/) ).
One of the most interesting things that happens if they ask "well why is this
part of culture like this", because sometimes I do not even know, so I get to
learn a bit about my culture as well.

~~~
jogjayr
Agreed. And that's the part that I take the blame for. When you're adrift in a
culture, you should ask for help. In my (relative) immaturity, I thought
asking questions would be considered annoying, rather than being a way to
build bridges.

~~~
kop316
I understand why you could have that mentality though, you can't be blamed for
it. I hope sometime you would be able to visit the USA with that knowledge and
get a better experience!

------
booh
You can become extremely proficient in the language and be highly sensitive to
the culture. You can also spend 10 years in the country to the point were you
grasp practically everything, no matter how much randomness is involved in the
conversation or the place and time it takes place.

It does not matter. Majority of foreigners, westerners or not, won't have real
local friends in English speaking countries.

Even though you do acclimatize to the culture and language you might still not
be fond of it. I lived in countries were it would have been easier than in
others to interact with people, but in the end I wasn't able to because I
either wasn't a fond drinker (commonplace in all english speaking countries)
or I didn't enjoy being involved in mundane silly-office conversations during
the smoke break.

Most of the fresh expats can't even realize what they are getting into when
they move into another country. If you are deciding to do so and you come
across this post, do it, go and check it out, but beware that your inner you
will never completely mold to that place.

------
socrates1998
I am curious as to what the ultimate goal is for these foreign undergrads. Get
a job in America? Go back home and get a job?

I guess it all depends on the home country and the American school, but I
wonder how valuable an American undergrad degree is worth in their home
countries?

I know in Japan it often isn't seen as worth it because in Japanese undergrad
programs, the people you meet often are a major part of your network along
with the people you went to high school and middle school. And these networks
are essential to your career arc.

So, by going to school in the US, you lose out on these networks.

But, if your goal is to get a job at an international company where you speak
English or get a job in the US, then I guess it is worth it.

~~~
chrisper
Some people (like me) just wanted to experience living in the US for some
longer time. Some people (like me) just wanted to experience something else
than just the home country. Eventually getting a job here was on the plan, but
since I over time started to dislike this place, I will be going back home in
a few months. I am glad I came here because it allowed to learn more about the
US.

------
b6
It takes a lot of courage to put yourself in a strange environment, away from
familiar comforts and friends and family, into the care of strangers, to learn
about a million faults they have, and then learn to love them anyway, and,
most importantly, to _really allow the experience to change you._

------
ashwinaj
What does close friends mean? A lot of relationships in the US are based on
"activity" partners[0]. Someone to go out with, sharing a same hobby, passions
etc. Close friends in other countries means a lot more than just activity
partners.

I had the same experience in grad school, I only had "activity" partners, than
what I would call close friendships with Americans. It always felt "distant".
It's sadly true even today.

[0] I couldn't find the relevant article that discussed about this,
specifically in the American context.

~~~
VLM
Yes the most American website ever is meetup.com go search the meetups in your
area and at least 95% if not 100% are what you DO at work or when not at work,
and almost none exist to BE someone or to hang out with an identity. The only
identity groups will be like "something area singles group". I find it
typically American that all americans aspire while not wanting to appear
aspirational, so lots of americans want to start a business, but none would
ever be caught dead at a meetup called "we want to start our businesses" or
"we want to lose weight", americans can have "gym buddies" to hang out with
cool bros but never "weight loss buddies" because that sounds very
aspirational. Perhaps Americans are too pessimistic to be caught sounding that
optimistic, I donno. Its a pity, you'd think meetup would be a good place for
"I wanna learn (some technology)" but thats as unamerican as possible because
its identifying as wanting to learn something as opposed to physically doing
something, and even worse its aspirational.

Also it never fails to amuse me that they'll be about one hiking group per
half million people in a metro area and they all claim they're the "real
group" the "fun group" the only "active group". Something to do with Dunbar's
number you just can't have 1000 americans work together they have to make
smaller tribes and pretend the other tribes don't exist. All a bunch of
foolishness. Sometimes I think meetup.com is all an elaborate stunt by some
grad student gathering anthropological data about Dunbars number.

------
jccalhoun
I teach at a midwest college and I worry about my international students. Some
of them do great but too many of them struggle and I don't have the skills or
even the time to help them. I try to make sure that they get mixed into groups
with the students from the USA in the hopes of encouraging the creation of
friendships but I often feel like the university is just taking their
international tuition and not doing enough to help them.

~~~
jimmies
As a foreign student, thank you. Among close American friends, some of them
were acquired through my class projects. Although it might not be the most
effective channel, it definitely makes a difference.

I think the best the school could do is to make the students stay in dorms
with shared rooms when they come to study. Roommates, in my anecdotal
experience, are among the best channels to acquire friends. If the school
doesn't have the policy in the first place, then perhaps there is little that
anyone could do to help, if the students don't make it a priority.

------
snvzz
> 40% of foreign students in the US have no close friends on campus

Missing important data for contrast: How many non-foreign have no close
friends on campus.

~~~
TillE
Exactly. Close friends? I'd guess it's _at least_ 20-25%.

College can be a weird place. Personally I had a lot of people I hung out with
for a semester or two, but nobody I liked enough to truly be friends with.

------
1024core
When I came to the US, I made an effort to reach out to Americans (in the
dorms, in class, etc). I found that, after you remove the veneer of programmed
culture and biases, under it we're basically all the same: similar goals,
fears, aspirations, etc. I formed some very close friendships with Americans,
and I'm still close friends with them 20+ years later.

My point is: as a newbie in this country, _I_ had to make the effort; if I
didn't do that, I would not have made those friendships.

~~~
arambhashura
Not everyone is up to making that effort (I agree that they _should_).

For me personally, I could easily have ended up in the 40%. I was not very
social, and would have had problems making friends with anyone. As an Indian,
I'd probably have welcomed Indian friends, just because I'd have felt less
ill-at-ease with them. Luckily, my English was good, I loved playing sports,
and some American students made an effort to make friends. That made all the
difference. I really appreciate those classmates who made an effort to know a
strange-looking, strange-talking kid. They made a massive positive difference
in my life.

Also, I did some free tutoring. I probably wouldn't know anyone outside of
Engineering, had I not done that.

Another large difference nowadays, I suspect, is that a critical mass of
students of certain cultures has been reached. So it's perhaps difficult to
break out of a default behaviour of hanging out with "your own kind". When a
foreign student arrives in the US, the local <insert foreign-country here>
students association welcomes them and helps set them up. Right there are laid
the potential foundations of remaining in the comfort zone of fellow
countrymen.

------
raisspen
It is the same for almost anybody studying in a foreign country. It takes a
fairly high level of self-confidence to really put yourself out there and
cultural/linguistic differences can be confusing to navigate. I myself have
studied in 3 foreign countries and can say that it requires a lot of effort to
make local friends.

------
wallflower
See also "When a Chinese PhD Student Meets a German Supervisor "
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12769385](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12769385)

------
popobobo
40% of US students in the US have no close American friends on campus too. We
all went to college. Come one. That is how it is. I wouldn't call the dude
saying hi to me everyday the room next door ma friend. They are all just
living around me. We all have to pretend to be nice to each other because none
of us wants trouble. Sure we do hang out or get drunk at the party. But we are
not friends. The only true friend I got is my college sweet heart.

------
amyjess
I remember, several years ago (2010-ish), a friend's roommate brought a couple
of his Indian coworkers home. I got to meet them because I was hanging out
with my friend at the time. They hung out for a bit, and then he took them to
a shooting range, bringing his gun collection along.

Before they left, he told my friend and I that he was doing this because he
read a statistic showing that a huge percent of Indian-born workers have never
been in an American's home, so he wanted to get his coworkers out of that
statistic.

In hindsight, that act was the only decent thing that man has ever done (he is
no longer on speaking terms with me, my friend, or virtually everyone else we
know for a variety of reasons that have nothing to do with his co-workers).

~~~
junnan
Dude, the stories you didn't tell are far more intriguing

------
dagw
I wonder if they tried to normalise how different people and different
cultures define what is meant by "close friends". I mean I'd probably say that
I've made maybe 4 close friends in my entire life (5 if you count my wife),
half of which I've lost contact with, without ever really feeling I'm lacking
friends, acquaintances and people to hang out with.

------
sametmax
So 60% DO have close friends that have a very different culture and language.
I find that very positive. I traveled all my life, and I know how hard it is
to do it. Well done !

------
lazaroclapp
Most foreign students are in the US for a two years masters program, which is
not that long a time to assimilate to any culture. I am from a relatively
similar western culture, I arrived here thinking to myself in English 50% of
the time (not my native language, but my main "Internet language"). I still
spent my whole first year with my closest group of friends consisting chiefly
of Germans, Greeks (from actual Greece, not a frat house), Indians and
Chinese. It wasn't that it was easier to breach that cultural gap, but more
that other international students were _aware_ that there was a gap to be
breached. Americans seemed always more likely to only understand overtures of
friendship in their very specific cultural context, and even with extensive
American media exposure it takes a few comical mishaps to become fully
conversant in that cultural code, independent of language. English fluency was
the lesser of the issues for me, but admittedly having a strong accent can
make it even harder to be understood at a loud party even if it is perfectly
fine for asking questions in class. I don't blame the natives at all for it,
but do keep in mind that it is the foreign students who often do 9 parts in 10
of the effort. Wonder what is the statistic - even for colleges that are 50/50
overall - of "American student with no foreign student close friends".

For the curious: I did end up having a much closer group of friends including
roughly 50% American students later, though, after bonding over one of the
most American experiences possible, a Spring break trip.

------
morgante
Did they compare against American students though? Modern culture is making
_everyone_ increasingly lonely and isolated, so I wouldn't be surprised if a
good portion of that number is explained by the fact that going off to college
and making close friends can be difficult whether you're from Nebraska or
Nanjing.

That being said, the cultural aspect can't be ignored. There's a reason that
despite going to two very international schools, almost all of my close
friends are European, American, or Australian.

------
kop316
I would like to frame my thoughts on this as an American that is dating a
Taiwanese person, and as someone who has traveled around the USA a lot. I also
ran my thoughts by her and she agreed with what I said.

First, I think there are two types of people who travel to a new place (this
can be a different part of the country, or a foreign student to the USA): 1)
the person who wants to try new things and enjoy where they are, or 2) the
type of person who hates where they are and refuse to try anything new.

The latter type of foreign student will not make any American friends. They
will only stick with their culture and friends of their culture. She has also
said a lot of people feel very nervous speaking English, because they will
they will get something wrong and get ridiculed for doing so.

As an American with foreigners in my classes, there are also people who speak
their native language to other students who speak it. I empathize with the
fact that it is easier for them, but by doing that, the effect that I get is
the feeling of exclusion, so I cannot even attempt to try to befriend them. As
an anecdote to that, I can say I have felt resentful when I have been the only
American in a group of Taiwanese and they did not speak English at all when I
was there, as the message I got is they don't want me in the conversation.

I hate to say, it is very intimidating, but if you want to befriend Americans
while in the country, you HAVE to speak English as much as possible. I am, and
I would like to think any others are very forgiving in the fact that they know
English isn't your first language, and are happy to accommodate that. If you
do not, most Americans will feel excluded and not even attempt to befriend
you.

~~~
153a
It goes both ways. Aside from cultural differences, I would assume you would
also feel excluded or isolated if you were the only non-American among a group
of Americans who only spoke English, and you didn't understand or speak
English.

Note that English is used as a universal language in international settings,
and that you are a native English speaker. It's somewhat easier for you since
they would know a least a little bit of English, while you wouldn't know their
language unless you have some level of proficiency.

Also, Americans generally have a culture of accommodation or assimilation,
while people from other cultures may not. The social environment when the host
population interacts among each other as peers is also different than when
interacting with foreigners, as it requires a separate form of interaction
that isn't the norm. This applies to both Americans and other nationalities.

~~~
kop316
I agree, and it wouldn't surprise to hear that there are also Americans who
are uninterested in trying to accomidate forgeiners, and I imagine that would
be very discouraging for someone who tries to get out of their comfort zone as
well.

------
geezer
If foreign students want to make American friends, they should be prepared to
feel uncomfortable and also be willing to make others uncomfortable.

There is no easy way. You have to separate yourself from your comfort zone.
That includes others from your home country as well as other international
students. Live with an American roommate, go to every (American) party you are
invited to. Say no to every (non-American) party you are invited to. Find an
American gf/bf or keep trying. Join volunteering activities (food drives,
blood drives, salvation army etc) to meet locals.

In a couple of years, you would have made yourself deeply uncomfortable on
many occasions, annoyed some people, but by now you'll be talking and walking
like an American.

This applies in general to immigrants who tend to huddle together because it
is the easier thing to do. That is why in most cases, cultural assimilation
takes atleast a generation.

------
e40
I went to UC Berkeley in the 80's and I found it a sterile and unfriendly
environment. Maybe it was me. I had one friend from all the classes I took.
One. I had a lot friends from working in the CS department.

I think the reason was the hyper-competitiveness between students. It doesn't
foster any sort of cooperation.

~~~
frozenport
Right now everybody cheats, so there is a lot more cooperation - but typically
only in your racial group.

------
partycoder
Consider yourself in the following scenario:

You hang out with Indians and they start talking about Cricket, a sport that
is widely watched there, but also a sport that most likely you know nothing
about. How can you partake in that conversation? you can, probably, but only
at a basic level and you might not have a lot to add.

So, the same happens with American football, or baseball, or sports that are
not widely followed elsewhere.

Those types of conversations marginalize foreigners, even if it's non
intentional. Now, if you have empathy, you might prefer to talk about
something else, with the purpose of being inclusive.

~~~
Arizhel
>So, the same happens with American football, or baseball, or sports that are
not widely followed elsewhere. Those types of conversations marginalize
foreigners, even if it's non intentional.

What about those of us Americans who don't give two shits about American
football or baseball or other sports (including cricket)?

And am I "marginalizing" someone if I want to talk about D&D, or retro gaming,
or astrophysics, or some obscure musical genre?

------
caidh
I had a college roommate from Hong Kong for a couple years. He specifically
asked for an American roommate, and I think we both benefited from the
exchange. His English was far better than most of his friends after that time.
It's hard though, if I were in his place, I might have been more insular as
well seeking out those with my native language.

He also got to laugh hysterically as he saw me try to pronounce some
greetings/messages in Cantonese to his father who would call from Hong Kong,
so there was that benefit too.

------
aakriti1215
I personally chose to come to University in the US and had a great experience.
While my campus had issues with international students and domestic students
being divided, we did a lot of research for our newspaper and wrote opinion
pieces on how to bridge the gap.

If you'd like to read about another perspective to how international students
feel after coming to the US, here's an opinion piece I wrote:
[http://www.dailynebraskan.com/opinion/agrawal-us-
universitie...](http://www.dailynebraskan.com/opinion/agrawal-us-universities-
offer-international-students-one-of-a-
kind/article_2d384054-5cdb-11e5-9e63-b7c49c6a4267.html)

If you'd like to read more about what it's like to be an international student
making friends with domestic students:
[http://www.dailynebraskan.com/opinion/agrawal-making-
friends...](http://www.dailynebraskan.com/opinion/agrawal-making-friends-with-
domestic-students/article_4355f66e-6c90-11e5-9b2a-f72e6e6fe7da.html)

Here's an article one of my colleagues wrote about making friends with
international students as a domestic student:
[http://www.dailynebraskan.com/opinion/simon-making-
friends-w...](http://www.dailynebraskan.com/opinion/simon-making-friends-with-
international-students/article_5e6a8fc4-6c8f-11e5-83be-8f73e6a588f8.html)

------
zaxxal
As someone who grew up heavily in both the west and east, it's most definitely
a cultural issue. IMO Americans tend to be oblivious to so many things and try
to hide their ignorance behind liberal values. Which I'm all for, but
conversing becomes a game of "what can I say and not have to have a huge
discussion explaining my opinion." Mix that in with the college experience and
it starts to make sense. I blame the schools for not properly educating
children in this country.

------
tn13
My wife studied at an American college. She had no friends. The college had
over 100 students 100% of them from India, Middle East and Turkey. The college
was nothing but a way for H4 women to get F1 so that they could eventually get
OPT and instead of being deadweight at home they could stand on their own
legs. This is probably one of the N colleges out there.

There aren't too many American citizens in these colleges and I will not be
surprised if these student constitute 50% of total F1s.

------
yalogin
If there are 750K foreign students coming in every year to the US why are
there only 65K H1 visas per year available? Surely they should expect at least
10% of them to want to work in the US after their education right? With that
why is everyone acting as if the Indian outsourcing companies are the problem
for the H1 visa shortage?

~~~
ap46
Its because 65K is for workers without degrees from US colleges & another 25K
is for people with degrees from US to get the OPT. The 65K gets 85% applicants
from IT companies based out of India, those jobs don't pay well but companies
willing to pay decent salaries get thrown out of it coz of sheer
probabilities. There was a post some time back recommending a application fee
based on the number of applications from a single entity.

~~~
chrisper
Not quite. You only get the 25K if you graduate in the US from a graduate
program. If you graduate with a Bachelors you are not eligible for the
extended cap (25K). But the OPT still works.

------
duckehlabs
When I was in school, international students had a week prior to orientation
with their own orientation. They formed friend groups from this orientation,
so it's not too surprising that they would stick to those friend groups rather
than then branching out to the people they have less in common with the
following weeks.

~~~
iak8god
Yep. Through the orientation they are also introduced to organizations on
campus that provide outings and other social activities specifically just for
these people who happen to have nothing much in common besides being
international students. It's kind of a weird idea, honestly: oh you're from
Belarus, you're from Indonesia, and you're from Peru? Here are a bunch of
activities you can all participate in for free or cheap, that are ostensibly
mostly about exposing you to the local culture & attractions, but without
having to interact with local students or other local people.

Further, students from some countries have the option of a critical mass of
their compatriots to hang out with, which I'm sure is a tempting comfort to
rely on. >30% and >15% of international students are from China and India
respectively: [http://www.iie.org/Services/Project-Atlas/United-
States/Inte...](http://www.iie.org/Services/Project-Atlas/United-
States/International-Students-In-US)

------
redditmigrant
For me personally as a foreign student from India the biggest hurdle was
cultural. I didnt know much about Star Wars, or American TV of the 1980s-90s
which meant I couldnt just jump in to most conversations. The second biggest
hurdle was that I just didnt enjoy drinking and drinking games to the extent
that is a part of contemporary American college setup. Thus I didnt have
stories of things I did while drunk. All this combined meant it became hard to
enjoy settings with predominantly American/Western groups.

At some point sub-consciously I stopped trying and went into my comfort zone
i.e. other Indian people who got my jokes, and where I didnt have to give
cultural context before every life story I was telling. I do regret not having
made friends from alternate cultures while I had the best opportunity i.e. in
college.

~~~
gjdickens
I'm surprised drinking culture hasn't been mentioned more here. As an American
who when to an American university, I had no friends who were non-American.
When I reflect on the reason for this, I do remember meeting students from
other countries but they had different priorities than myself and my group of
friends at the time so we never really clicked. (our priority was to go out
and drink as often as possible - 4 days per week usually) For someone coming
from a country where alcohol is consumed in moderation from young ages, I can
see how this would be an unappealing scene to get into.

~~~
Arizhel
>I'm surprised drinking culture hasn't been mentioned more here. As an
American who when to an American university, I had no friends who were non-
American.

Yeah, I think it's a big factor. I'm a white American and went to an American
university, and in my later years (I transferred midway through to go to a
better engineering school), _all_ of my friends were _non_ -American. Why
didn't I have any American friends? Probably largely because I don't drink and
don't care about sports. (I'm not a teetotaler, I just don't like alcohol
much, and at most will drink a little wine, and even here I hate the dry ones.
I also have a peculiar condition where it seems that alcohol has no effect on
me; I can drink a couple glasses of wine and not feel anything. I don't want
to try any more than that.)

I had a few American friends at my first university, but I met them because I
lived on the same floor in the dorm as them. I never had the dorm experience
in the second university. And they didn't drink either.

Dating American women has never gone all that great for me either. Now I'm
dating an Asian woman, who, you guessed it, doesn't drink.

------
ajaimk
A very one sided argument and a good example of using statistics for evil.

I came to the US in 2007 for my Undergrad from Dubai (Indian by Birth). I
lived on a dorm floor with 40 people and only another Indian and I didn't
actually talk to that guy much. Most of my friends are Americans including
some of my closest - To be honest, the few Indian friends I have are people
from work.

End of the day it comes down to your comfort zone. People who come to another
country to get an "American degree" will stick to their comfort zone. For
those of us who come to explore and understand the local culture, we're going
to assimilate into the local culture (my kickball team calls me a coconut:
Brown on the outside and white on the inside).

Do you want to stay a tourist or become a local?

------
mkaziz
I was a foreign student, and I ended up assimilating by becoming friends with
first gen Americans (children of immigrants). Once I got used to a handful of
cultural norms (took about a year or two), it became easy to interact with
Americans directly.

Today my closest friends are the ones I made in college.

------
aakriti1215
Please note this article is from 2012. I feel like the HN headline should be
edited to reflect this.

------
azinman2
Years ago I studied abroad for a year in the U.K. I'm American, so no language
barriers, but I found it very difficult to make British friends. I was friends
with my flat mates who were British, but otherwise only the Germans were
friendly to me. The other international students tended to stick to themselves
(particularly the Chinese and Pakistani), despite my attempts at bridging the
gap.

Homophily is a known social bias, and certainly affects people in their own
country let alone a foreign one. I wonder how much of this is "America" per
se, versus standard social forces that affect all populations.

------
Crolle
I think it has more to do with the culture than with the campus context. It
seems to me that North Americans value more politeness and independence,
whereas Europeans think more in term of honesty and reliability. That's why
you hear stories of French people being "rude" and Americans being
"superficial" or "fake", for instance. Building strong relationships is not
impossible, but it is more difficult and it takes time, and a semester can be
too short. I'd imagine it can be even worse for people with even fewer common
cultural ties.

------
lr
I was friends with many foreign students in college (a large school in the
midwest), and it was because all of them wanted to meet people unlike them.
One friend, from Zimbabwe (who was originally from Sri Lanka), once said to
me, "I can never understand why all of the foreign students hang out with only
people from their own country." She was pretty exceptional, but it's true in
general. A lot of Americans do the same thing when they go overseas. It kind
of makes no sense to go all of that way, and then just hang out with people
just like you.

------
jasonkostempski
What percent of Americans have close friends of any nationality on campus?

~~~
aakriti1215
^ repost.

~~~
jasonkostempski
What does that mean? Did someone else ask the same thing? If so, no one has
time to read every single comment before commenting, sorry.

~~~
aakriti1215
Sorry, I didn't make that very clear - I meant that I completely agree!

------
DarkIye
As a university student in London, I noticed Chinese students (the main
foreign contingent of the student body) overwhelmingly tended to socialise
with one another, and groups of Chinese students speaking Mandarin to each
other was a common sight on campus. If you weren't a Chinese speaker, it was
hard to penetrate these groups (I tried and failed). Is this also the case in
American colleges?

------
systems
so a solid majority of 60% gets to have a close US friend sounds impressive
(too good to be true actually)

how does this compare to foreign students in Canada, Germany, UAE, UK

~~~
lumberjack
It's unbelievable impressive from my experience. I've only travelled and
studied within Europe but I would say, foreign students pretty much never have
_close_ native friends. But then again in the US there is no language barrier.

------
known
Why should they have "close" American friends?
[http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2013/05/15...](http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2013/05/15/a-fascinating-
map-of-the-worlds-most-and-least-racially-tolerant-countries/)

------
cblock811
I studied hospitality in Switzerland for a while and was surprised that some
of my classmates just wouldn't integrate with the students there. It was as if
they had some aversion to change/something different. Normally I wouldnt find
that behavior odd but the whole point of hospitality is to engage and be
welcoming. I could see it being a stonger issue for people in other areas of
study

------
notadoc
I assume much of this is due to language or cultural barriers, even if it's
mostly perceived and not a legitimate barrier. Not surprising that most
foreign students congregate with one another, but they're missing out on part
of the experience of studying abroad surely. This goes both ways BTW, US
students studying abroad in many countries experience the same thing as well.

------
coolkarni
I found that sports and trivia knowledge is more important than language
skills when interacting with the "locals".

------
merraksh
Having lived in a few countries, I wouldn't be surprised if an extended
research showed that in country X, a significant percentage of foreigners have
no close friend from X.

In fact it is much easier to make friends with other foreigners, even when not
fluent in country X's language.

------
normalperson123
theres a mad dash for everyone in the world to come to american universities
and suck every last drop of credibility from them. for a long time college has
been getting worse. we went from college being a selective and prestigious
club to what we have now: giant degree mills where actual learning is a
fucking foot note. and college has become this way because everyone needs a
college degree now because there are no jobs for the ordinary joe who doesnt
have a degree or connections. so college has been on this slow decline and now
we see a ton of asian students who are coming and getting degrees while they
still have some value. so at the end of the day the whole thing just stinks.
you walk around and look at all the amazing buildings and amenities that the
school spent millions upon millions upon millions of fucking dollars on to
attract the rich foreign students and out of state party students and the
domestic rich students. meanwhile the quality of the education that students
get has plummeted. students dont learn anything anymore. elon musk read his
physics text book and showed up to exams. he was able to pass because he
_learned the material_. maybe other people have has a different experience but
that has not been possible at my school. i had a single professor who went
against the current and taught for understanding and at the start of the class
he practically got on his hands and knees and begged the students to read the
book. being new, i didnt understand. but soon i realized that it was because
students dont actually read the books! every other professor chooses some shit
textbook thats filled with irrelevant material and you are forced to only read
the equations and game the fucking system and get points. _learning_ has been
totally abandoned! and now i see swarms of asian students cheating on every
exam and i look at the state of the college and it just depresses me. i was in
an algorithms class and we had a quiz. times up, we are walking to the front
to turn things in and there was an asian guy standing in front of the desk,
looking at other peoples papers and copying the answers. completely brazen.
and the nobody did anything. nobody gave a shit. and i go to a well known
school. the state of affairs is not good.

------
sauronlord
So you move far away AND prefer the company of yourself... what's the problem
here?

~~~
finid
If you're an introvert or very shy, it doesn't matter how far or close you're
from home - it's very difficult to make friends.

------
nradov
As a point of comparison how many domestic students have no close friends on
campus? In other words, what's the differential between foreign students and
those who grew up here?

------
aaron695
"You never meet people in their own country" is a factoid I've noticed.

You have more in common with fellow travelers than you will have with people
who are just status quo.

------
BrailleHunting
Student unions should encourage "welcome committees" to make sure no one whom
wants to participate in the social scene is left out. (dorm life was the
best.)

------
kingkawn
It is because Americans are cultureless robots pumped full of paper thin
thoughts, who have replaced any experience of togetherness with consumer
preferences

------
preexo
Living in south east Asia I see more than 40% of US American expatriates who
are living here not having even a single native/local friend...

------
ap46
Another way to look at this is American students don't engage with 40% foreign
students on campus. It takes two to tango.

------
jorgec
My experience in the U in my generation, started with 60 students and ended
only 6 from different levels/years.

------
seattle_spring
I wouldn't be surprised if 40% of all students have no close friends on
campus.

------
normalperson123
love the foreign students.

