
SteamOS, Linux, and Steam Machines - ekianjo
https://steamcommunity.com/app/221410/discussions/0/1696043806550421224/?t=1&cn=ZmxleGlibGVfcmVjcw%3D%3D&refsrc=email&iid=349e1d3fdcdc46d493b14572c866208a&uid=2862984859&nid=244+272699400
======
Zhyl
This is a good update for Linux Gaming fans. There was definitely uncertainty
when the Steam Machines page was delisted, some even thinking this was game
over for gaming on Linux.

Those who were there at the beginning of the Valve Linux Offensive (circa
2012) will remember Gabe Newell stating that the main driver for investing in
Linux is their dependency on Windows as a platform. Valve has never been one
for dependencies at the best of times (creating their own engine to replace
quake, creating their own sales platform to replace retail) and having a
dependency on a platform that explicitly seems to be trying to emulate the
iOS/Android approach more and more is absolutely a reason to at the very least
have a plan B.

Having Valve come out and say that they're still invested in Linux is
important, but what is highlighted in the post is also poignant - in 2012 it
seemed the barrier to adoption was interest in the platform and access to a
Linux machine. The solution to both of these was to create a high-profile,
easily accessible form factor which was Linux by default. It turns out that
this may not have actually been the right solution. Linux adoption has risen
and the back catalogue of available games has increased incredibly, despite
lacklustre sales. The problem now, and perhaps always was the graphics APIs
and cost of porting. Valve are actively investing in Vulkan which is
absolutely the right thing for them to be doing. The only downside is that it
looks like they're neglecting the 'movement' they started with Steam Machines.

I hope to see big things from Valve in the future. If I were them, however, I
would invest in creating a truly fantastic desktop experience with seamless
transition from Windows, lots of toys to play with, riced desktops etc.
Hardware and the console form factor should be secondary to creating a PC
desktop experience worthy of the people who created Half Life and steam.

~~~
m_eiman
_Those who were there at the beginning of the Valve Linux Offensive (circa
2012) will remember Gabe Newell stating that the main driver for investing in
Linux is their dependency on Windows as a platform._

I see a problem that is just as big, or probably bigger, here for the (PC)
game industry: the near-monopoly of Steam.

I try to buy non-Steam versions of the games I buy, because I dislike Steam's
online DRM and their client, but it seems that Steam is the new Windows when
it comes to gaming. "Everything" is released on Steam first, and it seems a
lot of times only on Steam. Which means that we're one focus shift or stolen
password away from not being able to run the games we've bought and paid for.

gog.com has a better offer, IMHO, by being DRM free. Are there any other
similar competing services? Humble Bundle seem to be selling Steam keys these
days, so they're a subset of Steam.

~~~
AnIdiotOnTheNet
I think people maybe don't realize that, like Windows, Steam got to where it
is for a reason. Valve knuckled under and built a digital distribution
platform for PC games _during a severe decline in the PC gaming market_ when
very few people thought it would work.

And it wasn't exclusive, they sold other people's games on there too. Then
they helped kickstart the indie gaming explosion with the Potato Sack. Then
they started trying to make Linux a better gaming platform to provide an
alternative to being locked in to MS. Then they released a non-exclusive VR
platform against a competitor that was exclusive.

Say what you want about Valve having a monopoly and that being bad for the
market, because that's generally true, but my opinion is that Valve has
demonstrated a sincere interest in doing good things for PC gaming, not just
what's good for Valve.

~~~
imjustsaying
As a Linux-only user, there are almost no Linux-compatible games I'm
interested in playing on Steam. So, if I have that rare desire to load up a
game, I always find myself going back to TF2, which I didn't even pay money
for, and at this point am about as entertained by as Solitaire.

None of the big name releases ever seem to be available. I understand this is
due to the game studio's decision of not spending the money on porting to a
market that they calculate would make up a rounding error in revenue.

I'm sure there are Linux-compatible indie games out there that would be nice
to try, but I'm a casual gamer and I don't have time to research and trial and
error what might be a good fit for me.

~~~
chipperyman573
How is this Valve's fault? Valve lets pretty much anyone who's willing to pay
a (small) up-front fee list their game on their store. If there aren't any
good games for Linux, that's because nobody is developing them.

~~~
deadlocked
There are plenty of AAA games released with Linux support each year - a small
fraction of those released with MacOS support, and a much smaller fraction
again of those with Windows support but still: they're there.

A large amount of AA and Indie games are also released on Linux (largely, I
suspect, because they use middle-ware like Unity which makes multi-platform
releases much more straight-forward).

My point being that there are lots of options if you have a hankering to play
a quality game on your Linux machine. The problem in this instance, I suspect,
is more to do with this line from imjustsaying's post: 'if I have that rare
desire to load up a game'.

------
headsoup
I feel like Valve has certainly been putting effort into Linux, but not
_serious_ effort.

They seem to be going low-moderate risk/investment. Sure there's progress, but
then the Wine devs are moving pretty steadily too at the moment.

If Valve wants to really be serious:

\- Offer incentives to Devs to support Linux/Vulkan

\- Release a goddamn new game (HL3 - dreams) and make it Linux exclusive for a
time

\- develop and release new features for Linux first (maybe if GoG ever get the
Galaxy client over to Linux Valve will get a kick in the pants to act...)

\- Promote SteamOS and (maybe) Steam Machines, like at least some. Show Steam
Machines as an 'out-of-the-box Windows gaming replacement, not a console
competitor.

\- Fund Linux devs or take a lower cut from Linux releases

\- Convince Adobe to release their suite on Linux! Push for/fund official
Unity and Unreal Engine Linux versions

\- Offer the ability to natively launch games through Wine (and either use
'community' environment files or require one exist, or have a link to WineHQ
for help)

Be serious Valve, be genuine and get your flat structured 'follow the shiny
thing' company focused and determined.

~~~
AnIdiotOnTheNet
> Release a goddamn new game (HL3 - dreams) and make it Linux exclusive for a
> time

A move like this would definitely not win Linux any friends, because as it
turns out the Linux Desktop really isn't that great and you'd just be causing
a huge headache for a lot of people. The gamers would be annoyed at having to
deal with Linux's bullshit, the Linux Destkop community would be annoyed at
the huge influx of new users who don't think "try another distro" (especially
after the third distro), or "write your own driver, it's open source!", are
acceptable solutions to their problems.

If Linux wants gamers there's a simple (note: simple != easy) thing they have
to do: make their platform attractive to gamers and game developers. So far
they can't manage either, the only reason gaming on Linux is even remotely
viable is A) Valve coming in and saying "Ok, since there's no such thing as a
standardized base system in Linux Desktop land, here's a standardized base
system for Steam you can target", and 2) the popularity of Android making
engines like Unity and Unreal have Linux support, which allows devs to tack it
on without too much extra effort.

~~~
headsoup
> _the Linux Desktop really isn 't that great_

That's not true. Stick to the 'user friendly' popular ones (Ubuntu, Mint, etc)
and they're very solid now. Sure, edge cases are still a problem, but for
gaming - if supported - not really anything more problematic than Windows.

When did you last try Linux?

~~~
scaryspooky
I currently run a Linux desktop (Ubuntu 17.10) on Apple hardware. The list of
problems:

The camera fails to work consistently (the driver does not always load)

Audio fails to work consistently (restarting pulse fixes this)

Closing the laptop lid initially sleeps, but then the laptop wakes up a few
minutes later for no reason (so I wrote a script to disable all the events
that can wake the laptop up, but this in turn causes it to not wake up at all
sometimes when I actually want it to)

kde plasmashell will crash if I try to use ffplay, and doesn't reliably
recover so I end up needing to restart my session which loses any work I
hadn't saved since I can't switch windows

These are all problems I have never experienced with my Windows laptop, nor
macOS.

Anecdotes obviously, but I've been trying to go only Linux for the past decade
and never felt like I could reliably do so.

~~~
madez
> I currently run a Linux desktop (Ubuntu 17.10) on Apple hardware.

It's important to buy hardware that is supported and properly documented by
the manufacturer. Apple is not one of those that do that.

~~~
scaryspooky
If these were issues I've only encountered on the Apple hardware I would
agree. I've encountered issues like these on every computer I've put Linux on,
which is every computer I've built or bought since 1996.

~~~
jezbo3939
Be me

Perform vanilla install of Windows 10 on new desktop build

Watch it sporadically work with Logitech 920 webcam

Watch it randomly not load network device at boot

Watch it show me a blank login screen with no ability to pick a user or enter
pwd

Watch it “lose” a USB connected Brother laser printer

Watch it ...

I’m pretty sure Windows and Apple get a pass on quality because we’re low
level conditioned to give Big Corp products a pass

The Ubuntu + i3 setup I’ve been rolling for years now has not given me any
more or less odd ball problems than Win or OSX

OSX on my work laptop reboots every day. I have Firefox and Slack and some
stuff installed via homebrew, on a 2017 MacBook from work. Every morning “your
computer is recovering from a shutdown”. Even if I shut the software. IT
hasn’t figured it out, Apple can’t and won’t replace hardware that tests ok

Watch FaceTime just stop doing anything every call I make with it

Oooh and the WiFi issues with Mac that I haven’t had with Linux since
wpa_supplicant was managed by hand

But Apple has their “just works” rep. I mean it “just loads” then just needs a
reload everyday seems more accurate

I’m not saying Linux isn’t a quirky chore

I’m saying it doesn’t seem any quirkier than the competition going off my
daily experiences with all 3

~~~
BuckRogers
I've very rarely had an issue with Windows that wasn't fixed by replacing
faulty/failing hardware. While not a hard rule, your issues sound exactly like
that's the root cause. Time for a new motherboard or PSU. Most people just
never realize it is failing, blame the OS. Everyone who has done deep stints
into desktop Linux knows that's definitely not the case over there and Windows
does a fantastic job at covering up hardware errors as much as it can, more
than people realize.

Starting from my Commodore128 till today, other than that original Commodore,
I haven't seen anything else as well-built as Windows. macOS & desktop Linux
distros included. I hate to elevate one above the other but my honest opinion
starting on desktops in 1986 that Windows is the most rock solid desktop OS
out there today. Microsoft has to ensure it's the most battle tested by
necessity, given that even back in 2011 it ran 1+ billion[0] devices. There's
nothing else even in the same league for desktop operating systems when it
comes to exposure, testing & fixes in the QA feedback loop. Even the big
player, Ubuntu, doesn't come close.

[0][http://www.businessinsider.com/right-now-there-
are-125-billi...](http://www.businessinsider.com/right-now-there-
are-125-billion-windows-pcs-worldwide-2011-12)

------
robert_foss
Valve has been making serious amounts of contributions to Linux graphics in
the past few years.

Vulkan, RadeonSi and VR to name a few. They deserve all the recognition they
can get for it.

~~~
CodeArtisan
They also open sourced GameNetworkingSockets and made it independent of steam
for allowing games that use it to be ported to other markets.

[https://github.com/ValveSoftware/GameNetworkingSockets](https://github.com/ValveSoftware/GameNetworkingSockets)

------
Aardwolf
I love how many good games are available for linux in steam! Factorio,
Terraria, Silicon Zeroes, ...

It seems that it's even trivial to release Stream games for linux when using
any common game engine, and I hope developers will make use of that as much as
possible.

Fallout 3 has no linux version in steam unfortunately, but I actually could
play it perfectly by running the windows client of steam in wine. Everything
just worked (I had to do a memory patch to support 64-bit CPUs, but so do
windows users have to so no difference there)

~~~
aveao
I tend to prefer GOG over Steam lately, mostly because of how shady Valve is
at certain stuff. The first 2 of the 3 games you mentioned are available DRM-
Free on their site.

Playtesting takes time and money and it's entirely possible that just
exporting the game for linux won't run perfectly, so I can see why some
companies using the common game engines don't do it, I kinda wish they did,
though.

Wine runs a lot of Windows games properly.

~~~
baud147258
I remember a indie dev saying that he won't port his game to Linux, since,
even if it was working, he couldn't do enough testing to guanrantee a stable
enough release.

------
opensourcenews
Potentially unpopular opinion: There is no money to be made in consumer
desktop operating systems in 2018, so there is little funding for innovation
in the consumer desktop operating system space. Until a business model emerges
which challenges this, the status quo will remain roughly the status quo.

The two major commercial producers of proprietary operating systems are
basically giving away their operating system at this point. Free Linux
distributions offer basically the same functionality for most users; the only
things preventing migration from one OS to another are existing applications.
For non-gamers, that's often moot, because the world exists in a web browser
now. Yes, there are other applications causing OS lock-in too, but they're
mostly on the business side, not the consumer side.

There _is_ still plenty of money to be made from enterprise operating systems,
but the innovation there is in a totally different direction than what
consumers would find valuable.

Example: Linux containers are great! But who's spending the R&D money to make
them a viable way to distribute games? There's plenty of work being done on
containers and graphics chipsets for ML applications, but not for consumer
use.

~~~
e12e
> The two major commercial producers of proprietary operating systems are
> basically giving away their operating system at this point.

Huh? Windows 10 home and pro aren't free? It's true that Apple doesn't charge
for upgrades, but they do charge a significant markup - and they will happily
sell you a licence to run Os X on a hackintosh although they'll forbid you
from doing it in their licence ("non apple hardware").

> Until a business model emerges which challenges this

Appstores. Windows, and Os X have app stores. Steam is an appstore. Microsoft
and Apple bundle a competitor to steam with the Os.

Just because both apple and Ms suck at making/marketing/developing their App
stores... Doesn't mean valve don't want to stay in the business...

They can't get in on ios, Xbox, ps4, etc. They could probably make an appstore
for Android - but I'm guessing they'll just focus on streaming games from the
cloud to Android (esp Android TV).

With hw support for virtualization, Linux could be the universal runtime -
allowing the same game to run on Mac, Windows and Linux...

------
z3t4
When leaving Windows for Linux I kinda gave up on gaming, but not only some
but most of my favorite games do work on Linux! For example Kerbal Space
Program (which unfortunately get more and more buggy for each update, and is
currently unplayable due to space ships spontaneously rip apart spreading
parts all over the galaxy)

~~~
bitL
> get more and more buggy

It's probably because they don't pay their developers and fire everyone that
expresses any discontent with it... KSP is not a good citizen.

~~~
z3t4
It basically goes like this: Company have thin margins and dev's agree to work
for slave wages. Company starts to make millions in IP profits. Employees want
to increase their salaries. Company says no. Employees quit. Company hires new
employees, but doesn't have to increase salaries much due to market prices.
The employees could probably get employed at some enterprise IT shop and make
CRUD forms all day with decent pay, but what a waste of talent.

------
erikpukinskis
I don’t understand why no one is talking about Linux on stand-alone VR
headsets.

Valve’s hardware team has been very busy, designing the Vive in 2016 and the
knuckles controller in 2017.

They’ve said they are working on multiple full length VR games, but that they
wanted to be able to design the hardware (knuckles) and the games together a
la Nintendo.

This is public knowledge.

It’s also known that Oculus is releasing two standalone VR devices in the next
couple years.

Valve has a headset, controllers, and a Linux OS. It seems obvious to me where
this is all going: a stand-alone Valve VR device running SteamOS.

Of course they’re not investing in screen-based games and desktop Linux boxes.
They’re perfectly positioned to release a medium-defining device in a green
field new computing paradigm.

They are at least as well positioned in this fight as Microsoft, Facebook, and
Apple. That’s the big leagues. Valve makes good money on Steam, but not that
kind of money.

And you know Apple and Microsoft aren’t going to use Linux. So having Valve
means there’s a Linux horse in the VR race.

------
wink
I'm really confused if PC gaming is a winner-takes-all market. Most of the
people I know (let's be honest, it's probably 90%-95% of your friends) play
games (AAA, bigger indies, the "household names") on Windows and only a very
fervent minority plays on Linux.

I personally have been using Linux on work computers and personal laptops
(almost) exclusively for.. I don't know, 10 years? - but my "gaming pc" is
still on Windows and I'm not in the mood for experiments with WINE or grasping
at the games that run on Linux.

Does anyone play major games on Windows _and_ Linux? I'm really excited for
the idea of Linux gaming, but it's not a thing I'm willing to compromise and
fiddling if the games I want to play really work.

~~~
woolvalley
It's about platform independence. Basically it lets steam tell microsoft, us
and our ecosystem can move our PC 'console' to a linux foundation any time.

~~~
wink
Sure, but that was neither my point nor my question. I'm not interested in
what Valve wants to achieve (in this scope) - but if there's a tangible
benefit for gamers and not just a hypthetic one :)

------
yAnonymous
I value their commitment.

>While it's true Steam Machines aren't exactly flying off the shelves

I hope they didn't expect anything else. Steam already has a limited choice of
games and a console that is even more limited is a niche product at best.

To make it succeed, they need a lot of resources to get GPU manufacturers and
game publishers on board (also those who took their games off Steam and
created their own launchers). They need both of that only to have a chance to
attack regular consoles.

------
p0nce
Look no further than this to understand why Linux doesn't work for most game
developers [https://www.gamingonlinux.com/articles/linux-game-sales-
stat...](https://www.gamingonlinux.com/articles/linux-game-sales-statistics-
from-multiple-developers-part-5.10064)

------
goodroot
I recently received an invite for the GeForceNOW beta. For the unaware,
GeforceNOW is game streaming; they leverage cloud GPUs to render games, then
stream the results back to you. My take away is in-line with critical
consensus. If you have a sublime Internet connection, it's an awesome service.
It's prone to the odd dip in quality, but all-in-all it's a major paradigm
shift.

I have been a proponent of gaming on Linux most of my adult life, but I can't
help but think that Valve might be missing the boat by sinking resources into
gaming on Linux local hardware. Times are a-changin'.

~~~
tomc1985

      > I have been a proponent of gaming on Linux most of my adult life, but I can't help but think that Valve might be missing the boat by sinking resources into gaming on Linux local hardware. Times are a-changin'.
    

No they aren't. There is just now a large amount of hammer-wielding cloud
idiots on the scene who think everything local is a nail. There is an entire
industry built around computer building, and a very large proportion of the PC
gaming crowd see the two as inexorably intertwined. Part of the joy of PC
gaming is the satisfaction of building a powerful system and watching it play
3D games really well.

------
ionised
If Linux could play all of my favourite games I would drop Windows in a
heartbeat.

There is absolutely no reason for me to have a Windows machine except the
games I play that don't work on Linux/Wine.

------
nukeop
Steam as a platform is completely, utterly atrocious in all regards. Their
client is ancient, outdated, and barely usable, there's no content quality
filtering, the greenlight program is a failure that only succeeds in bringing
complete bottom of the barrel dreg in 99% of cases, even from a developer's
point of view the platform is just a major PITA.

But it has the first mover advantage and that is really everything. Even
platforms that are infinitely better, have better tools, support, and pricing
(such as itch.io that doesn't require a cent to publish your games) are
heavily disadvantaged just because it takes extra work for developers and
gamers to adopt them. There's no easy way out of this and Valve can continue
being lazy and make major slip-ups every year and there's very little others
can do to endanger their heavily entrenched position on the gaming market.

As far as PC (or GNU/Linux in particular) gaming is considered, Steam is
everything, and it's not going to change any time soon.

~~~
ahartmetz
PC isn't an operating system. Please call it Windows if you mean Windows.

~~~
nukeop
I didn't mean windows, I meant PC gaming.

~~~
ahartmetz
Ok I'm sorry, I see it quite often and your comment could be read that way.

------
_pmf_
There exists a world where the Switch is the Steam Machine. It would have been
very well possible if Nvidia had chosen Steam instead of Nintendo as
distributor for its Shield.

We'd have an open handheld platform for indie games.

~~~
whywhywhywhy
>We'd have an open handheld platform for indie games.

Nintendo is the last company in the world that would be interested in this.
They're not in the hardware business to sell other peoples software, they're
in it to build a platform for their own software.

Nintendo platforms could literally ship with zero third party support and
people would still buy them. Heck most casual gamers I know who bought Wii and
Switch don't even own third party games at all, just Nintendo.

~~~
AnIdiotOnTheNet
Yep. People have been decrying the end of Nintendo since the Playstation and
it hasn't come to pass because Nintendo is actually really freaking good at
making games people want to play. They make the hardware to their standards,
with a target price they choose, and they make their games to the hardware. It
can't push as many triangles as a PS4? Nobody cares, because you can't play
BotW on a PS4.

