
Will China Protect Kim Jong Un from International Justice? - benologist
http://edition.cnn.com/2015/12/10/asia/un-north-korea-meeting/index.html
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littletimmy
There is really no international justice. The international arena is an
anarchy, where countries operate to keep each other in check while expanding
their own sphere of influence. NO COUNTRY has ever intervened to "bring
justice" to another country.

Even during World War II, the Allied powers went to war against Hitler's
expansionism, and not on account of the holocaust. If Hitler had just
concentrated on killing people in his own country (like Stalin), no one would
have clamored for bringing the Nazis to justice.

~~~
TeMPOraL
> _Even during World War II, the Allied powers went to war against Hitler 's
> expansionism, and not on account of the holocaust. If Hitler had just
> concentrated on killing people in his own country (like Stalin), no one
> would have clamored for bringing the Nazis to justice._

Not sure if we can say that. There were reports of what's going on smuggled
out of Nazi territory, but they were mostly ignored; public opinion learned
about the genocide only when Allied soldiers stumbled upon the concentration
camps in 1944. Hard to tell what would have happened if people listened to the
reports that came even before the war.

~~~
protomyth
When you won't accept a ship full of Jews, and given how many Stalin killed, I
don't think anything short of the UK actually being invaded or Perl Harbor
would have got the US into WWII. Lot of anti-semites in leadership positions
pre-WWII. Hell, Wilson was a KKK member and re-segregated the federal
government.

~~~
philh
> Wilson was a KKK member

I don't think this is true. A brief search finds nothing that says he was, and
several places that don't say he was where I'd expect them to. E.g.
[http://www.weatherimagery.com/blog/president-woodrow-
wilson-...](http://www.weatherimagery.com/blog/president-woodrow-wilson-
racist/)
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Woodrow_Wilson#Civil_rights](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Woodrow_Wilson#Civil_rights)

~~~
protomyth
President Wilson was a racist. The screening on March 21, 1915 of "The Birth
of a Nation" that he so enjoyed (probably because he was friends of the author
of the book it was based). You can search on all that information.

The Wikipedia page ignores all the other articles (do the search) about
Wilson's beliefs, friends, and civil rights record. It is also ignored in HS
history books just as President Lincoln's dealing with the Dakota is ignored.
Let's also remember he was happy about the biggest KKK march on DC in US
history. Never mind his dumb meeting after WWII in Paris.

~~~
philh
I never said he wasn't a racist. I said he wasn't a member of the KKK. You
haven't provided any evidence that he was.

"Not being a member of the KKK" doesn't mean someone wasn't a racist. If he
was a racist, we can say that without saying he was a member of the KKK.
You'll note that I linked an article titled "President Woodrow Wilson was a
Racist", which successfully accomplished this.

~~~
protomyth
The book I saw as the source "Setting the Record Straight: American History in
Black & White" detailing 5 Presidents who were members. The only dispute I see
about the book is its deemphasis of churches over Republicans.

------
Geekette
Deeply saddening but I doubt Kim Jong Un will actually face international
justice. 2014 report aside, the world has long been made aware of the cruelty
in N Korea, to no avail. I don't see what's different this time to suggest
that the tide will actually turn.

~~~
benologist
The only way he'll avoid prison is if he dies young, he won't be able to avoid
justice for 4+ decades, there are many corrupt old people in prison who
thought they could.

~~~
Bootvis
Sadly his father and his grandfather escaped justice. There is no reason to
believe this time will be different.

~~~
benologist
Open access to information might make a difference - at some point the world
will be blanketed with internet access from satellites/drones/balloons, it
will be impossible for the average North Korean to be forcibly kept ignorant
forever.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_Spring](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_Spring)

------
notahacker
Whether China chooses to exercise its veto to prevent the UN from issuing a
strongly worded condemnation or not, _North Korea_ will protect Kim Jong Un
from international justice. They have weapons pointed at some of the world's
most densely populated areas, and enough fanaticism to use them. Even if the
rest of the North Korean leadership were to decide Kim Jong Un was going too
far, I don't think the UN would be invited to participate in their palace
coup.

~~~
dragonwriter
> Whether China chooses to exercise its veto to prevent the UN from issuing a
> strongly worded condemnation or not

A referral to the ICC is a substantively different action than a condemnation
(of course, the DPRK is unlikely to cooperate with the ICC, at which point
there is a different discussion that may happen at in the UNSC -- or
potentially even the GA, under "Uniting for Peace" \-- about how to deal with
that.)

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TazeTSchnitzel
China wants stability, they don't want trouble on their borders. So if this
would cause NK trouble (it might), they'll block it.

Some day, though, NK will fall apart, if only when this Kim or the next runs
out of planned economy money to reallocate to bribes. Then China will have a
problem on its hands.

~~~
Geekette
China's also an unlikely ally for intervention here as it too was recently
reprimanded for continued use of torture in prison and cracking down on human
rights lawyers and activists by the UN Committee Against Torture:

[http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-
china-35058284](http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-35058284)

~~~
dragonwriter
> China's also an unlikely ally for intervention here as it too was recently
> reprimanded for continued use of torture in prison and cracking down on
> human rights lawyers and activists by the UN Committee Against Torture:

That's like saying that he US is an unlikely proponent of action here (despite
the fact that it is, obviously a key proponent of that action) since it, too,
has been reprimanded by the UN Committee Against Torture over its use of
torture, particularly in the context of detainees at Guatanamo Bay and at
secret, exterritorial detention facilities.

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Theodores
People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones...

It is interesting how our mainstream media phrases these things, to make them
a question. They frame debate to be 'normal' or 'silly'. For instance, they
could also ask:

Will China protect Tony Blair from International Justice?

Will Mozambique protect George W Bush from International Justice?

More generally the U.S. in its dealings with China always want to put our
Chinese friends on the back foot by questioning their human rights record.
Meanwhile, which country imprisons the most? USA. I would not be at all
surprised if there were more people imprisoned inside the USA than there are
people imprisoned in the rest of the world.

Hence, when it comes to important matters of human rights it is difficult to
take the U.S. government or media seriously.

~~~
knodi123
> People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones...

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/And_you_are_lynching_Negroes](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/And_you_are_lynching_Negroes)

> I would not be at all surprised if there were more people imprisoned inside
> the USA than there are people imprisoned in the rest of the world.

I would, since it's common knowledge that the US has 22% of the world's
prisoners.

America has an incarceration-per-100k of about 700, while North Korea has an
estimated 600-800, but we can't be sure because they're so secretive.

HOWEVER, america's prisoners get medical care, food, and many protections.
North Korea's prisoners are starved, beaten, raped, and worked to death in
brutal camps that rival nazi germany for pure concentrated evil.

------
ankitml
.....

