
Ask HN: How do I deal with the "unpaid overtime crowd"? - EC1
The moment I step through my work door I set a timer for 7.5 hours. Once that timer is up, I close all my work, and go home.<p>There are 4 people on my team, who I honestly think just do not have their own lives. They come in at 8am, and leave around 10. Every single day.<p>I am at the bottom of our &quot;scoreboard&quot; for bug fixes, yet I work the most efficiently. They have 3x more fixes than I because they just choose to sit here for hours and hours and hours and just work, I don&#x27;t get it.<p>Now I look bad in comparison, management doesn&#x27;t give a shit (obviously) and I have already had my job threatened. &quot;I have no problem buying out the your contract, you&#x27;re the least effective on our team&quot;. And &quot;Why can&#x27;t you be like _________ and __________?&quot;<p>My favourite part is, I designed the entire UI&#x2F;UX for the app, I coded all of it for over 15 mobile devices. These people do not have the same skill set as I do. I explained everything to management, and they just told me &quot;I don&#x27;t buy it, I expect you to unofficially make up yours hours&quot;.<p>Now they want us to come in on Saturday. Of course the rest of my team has no problem with this, but I run my own company and any second I can find that is free, I&#x27;m using, and bet your ass I&#x27;m working on my own shit on the weekend.<p>I&#x27;ve never been so stressed out in my entire life.
======
codegeek
First, kudos for doing what every one of us should do i.e. value our own time.
It is amazing to see a lot of people who just don't value their time.

This mentality that somehow sitting in office for long hours and cranking shit
out is just so horrible. I really believe that this has to do a lot with the
individual employee/person rather than just management. Yes, I am not counting
out the pointy haired bosses and all but to a _great_ extent, it is up to you,
the employee, to dictate how long will you be working on a given day. Sure,
some of us love sitting in office because we probably have nothing better to
do (been there) but learning to value your time is really underrated. People,
learn to value your own time and you will suddenly see how everyone else
around you respects you for that. /rant

Now, just to add the other side, creating value is a lot more than spending x
hours in office. Like you said, you designed a major component of the app
which is what matters. Yes, there may be days when you want to crank that
stuff out like there is no tomorrow because you are excited about it, go for
it. And yes, go work on _some_ weekends if needed for the team
(release/critical fix etc). Take one for the team but do it wisely. Let
everyone know that you are willing to raise your hand but you are not a
doormat.

In your case, since are you doing the right thing, your company does not
deserve you and based on what you said, they already don't care about you. So
like everyone else is saying and you know the answer anyway, find something
better and move on.

~~~
jhonovich
His company does not deserve him?

The guy, by his own admission, is more focused on his own company that he
works on nights and weekends. Why would any startup want a guy like that
unless he was radically better than everyone else?

~~~
RyanZAG
If you've stopped to look around you'd notice there is a dire shortage of good
developers who want to work for others. Nearly all the good developers I know
work on side project/hopeful businesses in their spare time. It's almost a
mark of a good creative developer that he has those kind of side projects.

A startup would want a guy like him because a startup needs to grow rapidly to
justify existing in the first place and a good developer will easily justify
their position on a team. If the OP is being truthful, he designed the very
product the entire startup is based on. So to answer your question - the
startup would want a guy like him because there might not be a startup without
him.

Obviously if he's no longer worth his salary then the startup needs to let him
go. That decision has absolutely nothing to do with the number of hours he
works and everything to do with whether his benefit to the company justifies
his cost.

~~~
EC1
> If the OP is being truthful, he designed the very product the entire startup
> is based on.

Hell yes I did. Entire UI. Coded it too. 45K, no benefits, nothing, just
1400/two weeks after taxes.

~~~
kotakota
Why would you stay there for 45k and no benifits? 45k/year is a slap in the
face for any decent developer.

~~~
EC1
How on earth do I find another job? I have never once gotten a reply from
another company when applying. I'm a university dropout who is 21. Nobody
wants to hire me. I'm utilizing like maybe 25% of my potential, so I started
my own company.

I'd love some help with this. There's so many companies I want to reply to but
I'm scared.

~~~
RyanZAG
First: don't be scared. Your best offer will be based on how many offers you
received. How many offers you receive will be based on how many jobs you try
for. When looking for a job you want to apply for as many jobs as possible.

If you're getting very few responses, it means your CV is hitting some kind of
red flag. The university dropout might be triggering it - most recruiters will
be able to look past it though if you structure it well. You probably need to
make sure you downplay education as much as possible and focus on
achievements. Highlight which skills and languages you are an expert in and
find buzzwords that fit your skill set. There's plenty of jobs, so you can try
a few different CVs to a few different companies and see which ones have a
good response rate.

Or stick with your own company. You'll probably learn and accomplish more, and
ultimately if you build something great then at least you'll be the one
getting the rewards. (This is probably not a good option if you have zero
runway available, but people have made it work in the past...)

------
basseq
ISSUE #1 - Barring unpaid overtime, what are their expectations? You're
working 37.5 hours per week (7.5 × 5), which is less than the "standard" 40
(though you're still considered full-time for the sake of benefits, etc.).
It's unclear whether your 7.5 hour figure includes "non-productive time"
(e.g., lunch, breaks, etc.).

ISSUE #2 - Quantitatively, your numbers may be hyperbole, but they don't bear
out your claims. Your co-workers have 3x as many fixes as you, but they only
work 2.6x as much as you (assuming 14 hours / day × 7 days / week). By these
numbers, they are 15% more effective than you are. (And they're harder
workers.)

Fundamentally there's a culture mismatch. You think you have differentiating
skills—they don't agree. You think you are more efficient—either they don't
agree or that's not their metric. You want to work a 40 hour week—they want
people who will kill themselves.

There are a couple options (e.g., going hourly), but I don't think they're
realistic given the context. After all, your effective hourly rate is way
higher than someone who takes home the same salary but works twice as much. So
I agree with the other commentators: find an opportunity that's a better fit
for you.

~~~
workhere-io
_You 're working 37.5 hours per week (7.5 × 5), which is less than the
"standard" 40_

I don't know where OP lives, but several countries have work weeks that are
less than 40 hours. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Full-
time](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Full-time)

------
MortenK
This is my personal opinion as a software development manager, so take it as
just that.

A developer that always leave at exactly 17.00 and adamantly refuse to come in
on a Saturday, gives a very clear signal that they don't give a shit about the
company, the product or the team. They're there to get paid.

While most employers realize that your work isn't (or should be) your single
burning passion, it is very negative for team morale when one of the guys
always flakes out when the clock hits 17 regardless of the fire in the
kitchen.

I knew a developer who always left at exactly 17.00, because "that's what they
are paying me for". On several occasions, he deployed breaking changes to
production five minutes before leaving. Other devs had to come in and work
very late to get the system back online. While he is technically in his right
to leave at 5, he causes his team much grief and as such is not an asset.

The other side of the coin is that lots of software companies, really has
little to no control over software development. Especially startups run by
young, inexperienced guys rarely have any idea what they are doing. This is a
company where crisis' occurs daily or weekly instead of maybe once every
couple of months.

They make up for this by rampant overtime, and excuse this with BS about being
dedicated and a team player. You know you're in such an organization if they
talk about how "that's what the industry is like".

Your organizations work culture seem like that - very long hours and
(seemingly) no extraordinary reason for coming in on Saturday.

If that's the case, then leave. There's not much that can be done except a
total change of top management.

But if it's a rare occurrence that they call you in on Saturday and there is a
good explanation for it, then buckle up and help your team mates.

~~~
noir_lord
> A developer that always leave at exactly 17.00 and adamantly refuse to come
> in on a Saturday, gives a very clear signal that they don't give a shit
> about the company, the product or the team. They're there to get paid.

If once in a while something crops up that requires staying after 5 then that
is fine however the expectation should be that _all the developers go home at
5pm_

> While most employers realize that your work isn't (or should be) your single
> burning passion, it is very negative for team morale when one of the guys
> always flakes out when the clock hits 17 regardless of the fire in the
> kitchen.

If there are constant fires in the kitchen you might want to find out who
keeps lighting them, if's not the guy leaving at 5 then I fail to see the
issue.

> I knew a developer who always left at exactly 17.00, because "that's what
> they are paying me for". On several occasions, he deployed breaking changes
> to production five minutes before leaving. Other devs had to come in and
> work very late to get the system back online. While he is technically in his
> right to leave at 5, he causes his team much grief and as such is not an
> asset.

Pushing to production shortly before going home is a separate issue to whether
he leaves on time or not, a developer leaving on time should be expected, a
developer pushing breaking changes and leaving should not.

The other stuff I wholeheartedly agree with.

~~~
oddevan
> Pushing to production shortly before going home is a separate issue to
> whether he leaves on time or not, a developer leaving on time should be
> expected, a developer pushing breaking changes and leaving should not.

This. I strongly believe in finishing what I've started and not leaving things
broken. I also strongly believe in work-life balance which to me means working
hard until 5 but leaving then.

EC1: If you're confident that your work ethic is sound, then there sounds like
there's a significant culture mismatch here. I know it's not easy to think
about going somewhere new, but you may have to consider that sooner rather
than later. I honestly wish you the best of luck no matter how this shakes
out.

------
pauleastlund
So I'll lead with "you need to leave." Huge, obvious cultural mismatch.

With that said, I think it's bizarre how some of the commenters here are
vilifying your management. I don't know the specifics of your company, but you
can't run a startup at crunch time with devs putting in 7.5 hour days. Even at
Google, which I considered extremely cushy and laid-back, there was the overt
expectation -- repeatedly referenced in internal literature -- that engineer-
weeks were about 50 hours long.

I think it's great that you've identified the level of work-life balance that
will work for you and are standing your ground. But you need to understand
that working 7.5 hours days is not some sort of universal human right. In the
(near) future when you search for jobs, you need to communicate that
preference up front and make sure that management is on board with it rather
than taking for granted that they will be.

~~~
schrodinger
I don't agree with this. Why not be able to have a startup succeed with 7.5
hour days?

For me, I can put in a day longer than that when I need to, in an extreme
circumstance. But if it becomes often, I just can't be productive longer than
that. I loses ability to focus, and start accumulating burn out. My throughput
is greater at 7.5 hour days than 10 hour days.

Of course, if there's like a week leading up to a launch where you need to
crunch, that's different. I've been there, and have been able to be super
productive like that for a week. But it can't be sustained... I feel like I'm
basically borrowing some productivity from the future, and that debt will
catch up to me eventually.

~~~
pauleastlund
The sentence in question was: "You can't run a startup at crunch time with
devs putting in 7.5 hour days." The "at crunch time" was meant to qualify the
rest of it -- to suggest that standard hours might work some or even most of
the time, but not when you get that big client on the hook who wants something
custom next week. I think that's in line with what you're saying.

With that said, most of the successful startups I know involved long hours
early on, and not just occasionally. It absolutely involves borrowing from
future productivity and present quality of life. Sometimes taking that loan is
worth it, and sometimes it's just a stupid, pointless death march and the
urgency is manufactured. The latter might be more common but the former
definitely exists.

------
CocaKoala
They're simultaneously threatening to fire you and also begging you to do more
work; those are polar opposites. Do you feel like they need the work and are
trying to use the (empty) threat of termination as motivation, or do you feel
like they're trying to take advantage of you and get something for free?

Either way, you should probably quit. But if you can figure out what they
actually need, it might help reduce your stress a little bit. Only a little,
though, because having abusive managers or coworkers is really terrible and
wears at you in a way that's pretty hard to describe. So you should probably
quit.

------
calcsam
Leave. You're a bad fit for the company culture. The company culture is a bad
fit for you.

~~~
beauzero
...best answer.

------
jason_slack
Its hard to do, but I really think you need to leave.

Give your 2 weeks but be OK if they let you go on the spot.

If you dont have a lot of money, maybe you could put in a few more weeks
before you quit and literally try and save every penny you can. If you have
vacation time in the bank hopefully you get paid out for it.

I've been in situations where the "Boss" doesn't have a clear technical
understanding between different roles and it is very hard. It feels like a
Dilbert and/or Office Space moment to me.

~~~
thedufer
> If you have vacation time in the bank hopefully you get paid out for it.

I was under the impression that is legally mandated (at least where I live -
NYC). Is that not true?

~~~
jason_slack
I think it is, at least here in CA. I also lived in NY and it was the case
too.

What I was thinking is that maybe if they terminate him and he is a contract
employee they could get out of paying it for a while if there was legal action
brought by either party..so he shouldn't count on that money to live until it
clears his bank.

------
once_was
I once worked in a cafe in my teens, we would be paid up until half an hour
after close to do cleaning. Mopping the floor was the last task I did, it
would usually end up running 5 or 10 minutes over the time I got paid. Your
post makes me imagine dropping the mop half way through finishing the floors
and walking backwards out the door while flipping off my boss because that
half hour ticked over.

"The moment I step through my work door I set a timer for 7.5 hours." This is
a terrible work ethic. You set a timer? I don't agree with doing unpaid
overtime either, you certainly won't see me in the office on a Saturday, but
sometimes things need to be completed before you leave for the day. But maybe
that's just my opinion working in a remote office in a vastly different time
zone to head office where my work needs to be delivered.

Although not a metric, I did chuckle that you state your co-workers work twice
as long as you (14hrs vs 7.5) yet have three times as many fixes as you and
then reference the reason for this is the time they spend at work.

------
hubtree
If the stress is overwhelming you, then you should see if there is a solution
to remove the stress. If not, then you should probably quit. It isn't worth
what stress can do to your health and relationships.

If they need you to do more work beyond your 40 hour week, to the point that
they threaten to fire you, then your supervisor likely realizes they need you.

If you find that at 5pm that you are twenty minuets away from finishing
something up, then you should consider doing that from time to time, just to
show you're on the team.

I am lucky enough to be in a position that I am on salary, but I am still paid
overtime if the work load moves beyond 40 hours a week. If I need to work an
extra 15 to 30 minutes to finish up what I'm working on, I don't count that as
overtime. If I get a ticket that needs addressed, but there isn't time to do
it in the normal work day, that counts as overtime.

Maybe consider proposing something similar. If what they really need is a
little more help, but don't want to hire a new dev, they may be willing to
come up with a compromise.

Good luck.

------
kohanz
As stated by other, the obvious answer is to leave.

What is puzzling to me is that you sound like a skilled and confident
developer, yet seem afraid of wading into the job market. Are your local
employment options that bad?

~~~
noir_lord
They can be that bad depending where you live.

I've got 16 years experience with Linux, more than 20 years experience of
programming, more than 3-4 years commercial experience on my current stack.

I've written desktop applications for businesses, I've written software for
market traders, I've written web based systems for engineering companies.

I still wouldn't want to be looking for a job where I live right now.

~~~
Hannan
May I ask where you live? I live in flyover country, and I can't imagine you
would have a difficult time finding a new gig around here.

~~~
noir_lord
North East England, Just outside a town called Hull.

------
all_the_things
Stress isn't good for your clients and your personal relationships. I've had a
similar problem, I'm quite insistent on using my own equipment, my recent
client said yes to get me move over 4hrs away from my home, then the security
team said no once I setup my kit and put down a six months deposit on a flat.
I insisted on new equipment or a pay raise for pay in lieu of my slower rate
of experience and discomfort which effects my out of hours work. They bought
me a new iMac and I'm now technical lead for a reputable sports product. I
arrive at 7am and leave at 3pm but turn out 200% more than other members in
the team and maintain test coverage +90%. Remember to keep a smile on your
face when you discuss it with them though. They'll worry about what you know
and what they don't. The first one to lose their manners is usually wrong
regardless of the technical details in companies like these.

------
elandybarr
I don't think they necessarily "don't give a shit about the company".

In fact, I think setting appropriate personal boundaries is extremely
important. A lot of devs recognize 'hour creep'. You know, stay in a few days
until 6, and before too long, it becomes expected. I am saying this as a
founder and someone who puts in as many possible hours.

At first, I thought, "Are you guys not really in the game?". But now I
recognize that there are only a few people who I should really expect to be on
that level, and it should be made explicitly clear from the get-go.

In this case, there is a clear metric that the employee is facing. However,
this person certainly adds quite a bit of value.

I think this is worth confronting management over. But I also agree, that if
there is a rare occurrence for weekend work, then that is also part of the
team. Rather than quit outright, like many suggest, I would confront
management very clearly about your personal boundaries and ask them explicitly
what is the gulf between their expectations and what you are giving.

------
contactmatts
For reasons like this, I'm not sure I'll go back to a salary model (in favor
of hourly model). I value my family time and personal time, but for those
times where "the barns burning down", at least I'm compensated for putting out
the fire.

(...And if the barn is always burning down, look for a new job.)

------
joesmo
Sounds like management doesn't appreciate you, nor are they competent at what
they do. You deserve better. It's commendable and professional to work a set
number of hours (~7-8 / day, though it varies). It is unprofessional and a
sign of management's failure to ask you to work more, work on weekends, or
catch up to hours you don't owe them. It would also be unprofessional for you
to bow down to such ridiculous requests. It sounds like you are contributing
more than anyone and with your skill-set, you should have no problem finding
another job, hopefully one that isn't filled with unprofessional managers who
can't manage and demand one work unprofessional hours.

tl;dr: Working more than 8 hours a day is unprofessional (except in rare,
extreme circumstances where it is rewarded).

------
up_and_up
> They come in at 8am, and leave around 10

> Now they want us to come in on Saturday.

I would definitely GTFO!

Productivity != hours sitting at a desk.

I have worked at a company like this and the issue was definitely poor
management direction and poor technical discipline.

~~~
emperorcezar
In addition to having a bug "scoreboard". That is so easily gamed it not
funny. Grab all the easy bugs, get the top score.

~~~
strangetimes
I always find it funny when management lauds developers for aggressive bug
fixing. Do they not realize that the developers introduced those bugs in the
first place?

~~~
jack-r-abbit
A bug scoreboard needs two columns. One for bugs fixed and one for bugs
created.

Edit: actually, bug scoreboards need to die in a fire. But until then... they
need two columns. :)

~~~
jason_slack
And a few more columns for:

1\. Did you really understand the bug you were fixing?

2\. Did you test it at all?

3\. Really did you test it?

------
ctb_mg
My two cents is that this situation is more prolific than you might think.

My own theory is that most young engineers start out by valuing their own time
-- but they find themselves in a situation like this. They then relegate
themselves to working long hours to please management, and eventually they
work inefficiently all the time and are OK with that.

They're too withdrawn/introverted to stand up to management or take the leap
to find a new job.

Regardless, like many others said, time to quit. They're not a good fit for
you and a "bugfix scoreboard" sounds absolutely vile.

------
fsk
Look for a new job. Your relationship with them can't be salvaged.

Also, this is why you keep a 6-12 month emergency fund, in case you have to
walk away or get fired.

------
bmm6o
If you aren't already looking for a new job, why aren't you? It sounds like a
bad fit and they don't appreciate your contributions.

------
stefan_kendall3
You posted this looking for support for what you know you need to do.

Quitting isn't fun, but sometimes it's the only way to solve a problem.

------
JDDunn9
Sounds like they are trying to exploit you. There are plenty of companies out
there that want you to think of them as "more than a job", but don't want to
give you equity or pay competitive wages. Start taking interviews for other
jobs. Once you have on lined up, you can either quit, or use it as leverage to
talk to your boss.

------
ceedan
Instead of writing to the HackerNews posters asking for common sense advice,
just quit your job.

~~~
dkroy
It is not easy to leave a paying job for some people. In the same way it is
not easy to leave a paying job that is crappy. He isn't asking for common
sense advise his is looking for some sort advice that will serve as validation
to give him the confidence to make this decision. He probably knows what he
needs to do, our answers can only serve to assist him in making this decision.

------
pinoceros
No matter what, get out. They are toxic people with twisted values who do not
understand quality. Get out.

Accept their offer to buy out your contract. If they try to terminate you, be
ready to lawyer up for a breach-of-contract suit.

Get out.

------
sharemywin
Like everyone else said the best option is to find place with a better fit.
Second, I would throw them a bone here and there until you find something
else. third, do enough to get off the bottom of the list.

------
salibhai
My suggestion: Look for a company that you can comfortably work the 9-5 and
not have any issues with that.

------
babo
There is no point to play that game, you will loose anyway. Keep with sane
hours, find a new job, quit.

------
fuj
Just.. leave. I know it's easier said than done but, I've been in a similar
situation. No money in the world pays the stress you're going through.

~~~
myke_cameron
Environments like this aren't worth dealing with, +1 for bailing. When you're
looking at new gigs, ask questions about what the culture is like, oriented
around work / life balance, and try to get a feeling for the number of people
with families. I personally am a single guy with no children, but I like
working around family oriented folks because they are used to the idea that
you have many aspects of your life that are more important than your job
(whether that happens to be family obligations or not).

