
The Cheapest Generation - _s
http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2012/09/the-cheapest-generation/309060/1/?single_page=true
======
graeme
Back of the envelope calculations put the cost of car ownership around $7,000
per year. I'd have to earn an extra $10,000 before tax to cover that. That
pays for a lot of "overpriced Apple products" that we millenials are
constantly blamed for overspending on. And my electronics are a business
expense.

I can't see the use case for a car. I live in the Plateau Mont-Royal
neighborhood of montreal. Everything I need is _literally_ a five minute walk
away in any direction. A bike gets me downtown about as fast as a car does in
summer, the metro can often cross town faster, and taxis are a minute's call
away. You can pay for a lot of taxis with the money saved not buying a car.

Meanwhile, if I had had the cost of running a car, I would have gone bankrupt
on several occasions while bootstrapping my business. For no tangible benefit.
Now that I've got financial stability, I still can't see why I would want one.
If I car to drive myself, there are communauto stations all around me
(Montreal equivalent of Zipcar).

If I moved to the suburbs, things would be different, but I have no intent of
moving to the suburbs.

~~~
randallsquared
"Back of the envelope calculations put the cost of car ownership around $7,000
per year."

You could buy a ten-year-old used car every year, plus insurance, for $2,000
or less [1] (assuming insurance is mostly the same as in the US). When it
breaks down, buy a new one and sell the old one for parts or junk.

Owning a car provides courses of action you wouldn't consider without it.
There's an extra level of planning involved if you have to try to find a car
first, or take a train or airplane; if you have a car, the first step to any
medium-length trip is to jump in the car, rather than to try to work out the
logistics of how you'd get there.

[1]
[http://montreal.en.craigslist.ca/search/cta?query=&zoomToPos...](http://montreal.en.craigslist.ca/search/cta?query=&zoomToPosting=&minAsk=500&maxAsk=1500&autoMinYear=&autoMaxYear=)

~~~
graeme
Ok, but what's the total annual cost then? I don't commute, so I guess it
would depend on how much I drove – what's a ballpark gas estimate? Don't
forget to add the cost of my time for buying + selling – how long would it
take to make a good purchase/sale? (serious questions, I don't know the
answers because I have had no interest in a car).

My parents own a car, so I know what its like to live in a place with one.
Doesn't feel substantially different from what I've got now. As the other
comment said, there's a very well developed transport network where I am,
including public cars. You could say not every place is like this, but I
_chose_ to live here in lieu of a place where this lifestyle isn't possible.

~~~
randallsquared
It depends strongly on the gas mileage for the car, of course, but my first
assumption would be that for most people the cost of public transit is about
the same as gas. My daily commute, for example (which I know you don't have,
but most people do) is about 50 miles. On days I don't work from home, my
choice is between a commuter train which costs $22 round trip, commuting on
the long-distance train ($28 round trip), or driving, which costs about $10-15
in gas, depending on the current price of gas. I mostly take the train,
because driving into Washington, DC isn't fun; I'm certainly not trying to
convince you to run out and buy a car, just responding to the assertion that
it would cost $7000 a year extra to keep one.

I lived in the DC metro for two years without a car, before purchasing this
one, and having lived both ways, I personally strongly prefer having a car.
Without one, I had to structure my life around not having a car. Going to the
computer store (Microcenter) to pick up a new video card on a whim was
something that would take the bulk of the day without a car (two or three
metro lines depending on route). If the store half a mile from my house didn't
have something, I had to either plan a trip on a bus to another one (and what
if _that_ one didn't, either? So I spent a lot of time trying to figure out in
advance online if they did), or just go without. I don't much like shopping
for groceries, but I got to do it three or four times a week anyway, because I
couldn't carry enough 2L bottles to last longer than a few days, etc...
without a car, a _lot_ of my life was concerned with inventory and
transportation, in a way that I don't even think about with a car, since I can
pop out to any kind of store and be back in 20 minutes.

~~~
graeme
I see. We may have different use cases. I wasn't exaggerating when I said
everything is literally five minutes away in my neighborhood. I usually get
groceries several times per week, on my walk home from somewhere. Occasionally
I take a somewhat longer walk to a cheap grocery store for certain items, but
no planning required. I don't drink pop or juice, so no 2L bottles.

Apple store and protein powder describe the two items I can't get within this
5 minute radius. And transit is $4.80 round trip with a pass and takes me
anywhere in town quickly. Metro gets you anywhere, so no planning or routes
required. Taxi downtown is $12-$15 if for some reason I'm in a rush.

------
carsongross
You have to love the media: "The boomers voted themselves healthcare on their
kids backs, made their kids go into crushing debt for education, put basic
housing out of reach for them and look to be financing their retirement via
them. How come those darn kids aren't buying cars?"

~~~
guerrilla
It reminds me of how kids used to work for the parents on a farm or factory to
help support their family. Maybe the burden has just been moved, assuming the
quote has any validity.

~~~
WalterSear
Eventually the kids got a farm out of it.

------
fintler
Gen Y here.

I think they answered their question halfway through. Total student debt in
the US is currently about $1,134,752,535,374.00 and increasing at a rate of
about $2,853.88 per second.

The article title is linkbait -- any generation that spends that amount of
money isn't "cheap" (I think the word "exploited" is probably more
appropriate).

~~~
cgore
I make a lot more than a lot of GenY, and have less student loan debt, and it
is a MAJOR part of my budget. I don't see how someone with an average salary
and average student loan debt could get a loan for a car or for a house.

~~~
anonymoushn
How long will it be a major part of your budget? Someone with a typical state
university student debt load making a typical SV software engineer salary can
be out of debt in 5 years without much discomfort.

~~~
cgore
Probably around that long. Perhaps less if things go well.

------
probably_wrong
I'm not sure which letter applies to me, but I'm still under 30. Whenever I
think about a car, I think about where I'd park it (either on the street and
risk nature damage, or fork some extra cash every month for a parking spot),
the cost of gas (more cash), the nightmare that is driving in the city center,
finding a place to park it (usually, involving even more cash), maintenance
(cash) and the cost to the environment. And what would I get for that?
Reducing my commute 15 minutes, and being designated driver at the weekends.
Small, electric cars would solve some of those problems, but car makers insist
we don't want them.

I really think they are asking the wrong question - instead of "why aren't
'millenials' buying cars?", they should ask "why would millenials buy a car on
the first place?".

~~~
angersock
_" why would millenials buy a car on the first place?"._

That's exactly it. It's not the status symbol it used to be, _because it
should 've never been one in the first place_. You can't work on cars much
anymore, and it's clear that the car-centric planning we've gone with was a
terrible fucking idea and has been setting us up for much sadness.

~~~
sliverstorm
You don't understand status symbols. The less practical and more of a pain-in-
the-ass something is, the better its potential as a status symbol.

Yachts aren't status symbols among the rich because of their immense
practicality & utility.

~~~
fibbery
That might be true for the upper class, but for middle and lower classes the
biggest status symbol currently is a shiny new smartphone with much utility.

------
bitops
I'm a Millenial and I enjoy owning a car, but I definitely don't care about it
as an indicator of social status the way older generations did.

I would much rather own a self-driving pod with a comfortable couch where I
could work or relax without thinking about driving. Or even enjoying the view!
Driving is fun, but for day-to-day stuff, I'd much rather get online as soon
as possible to get my work done.

I tend to think of time in a car as time wasted, unless I just happen to be in
the mood to drive.

~~~
sliverstorm
_Driving is fun, but for day-to-day stuff, I 'd much rather get online as soon
as possible_

this statement makes me recoil. If I need anything, it is to be online _less_
, and driving enforces that, if only for a little while.

~~~
_delirium
I used to have that view, but now I don't own a car, and I take device-free
walks instead, which I think I actually prefer. I like looking at
architecture, trees changing color, birds, whatever, while taking a 30-min
walk somewhere. It feels less hectic than when I'd drive.

~~~
sliverstorm
Oh, I'm not saying I need driving to disconnect. Just reacting in general to
the notion of getting back online asap.

------
makerops
Since when does "not taking loans out for shit you can't afford" equate to
cheap?

~~~
westicle
When "frugal", "thrifty" and "prudent" became dirty words.

~~~
anonymoushn
I like "austere". It sounds much more elegant but is actually much dirtier.

------
anigbrowl
Speaking as a member of Generation X, having a computer and getting on the
Internet early made ownership of a car far less interesting. I did have a
motorcycle for a while and occasionally I find myself thinking about a car,
but it's an awful lot of money for something I don't really enjoy using.

~~~
xemoka
You said it. It just isn't enjoyable to own a car anymore. With all the added
crap on-top there is no reason for my simplicity craving brain (even if it
isn't true, we simplify to a point of making the process of simplifying
complex) to desire the perceived complexities and costs of owning a new car.

That being said, I do own one. It's not new (10 years old now), it's 'cheap'
to run (4-cylinder), and is purely for utility (4x4 for snow) as I live in a
rural community. Even then, I take the bus between communities to commute to
work.

------
nilkn
At least regarding homes, their prices have skyrocketed beyond inflation in
many heavily populated urban areas. This is of course because of the
increasing populations in major cities and the limited land available near the
city center. It's an extra powerful factor that drives housing prices up on
top of inflation.

Housing has become a major, _major_ expense in many cities, so much so that
getting into a nice neighborhood in a good location often requires two
considerable incomes. This is true even in less popular cities like Houston.
For instance, this is the neighborhood west of the university I attended:
[http://search.har.com/engine/doSearch.cfm?ZIP_CODE=77005&CLA...](http://search.har.com/engine/doSearch.cfm?ZIP_CODE=77005&CLASS=1&SUBDIVISION=WEST%20UNIV).
I remember driving through that neighborhood when I first started college; I
had no idea these were million dollar homes of the elite.

Regarding cars, I own one, but I don't enjoy driving in traffic, and traffic
is far, far worse today than it was in the 70s or 80s. Commutes are worse than
they've ever been. I'd love to go for a drive along a winding country road,
but I don't much care to fight traffic on a congested highway with
construction and accidents impeding any sort of sane traffic flow. I actually
just rent an apartment near the office I work in and walk to work. Driving for
me is mainly to visit friends and get groceries.

------
cm2012
I had the option of getting my dad's old car for free, recently. It works
fine, looks nice and is about 9 years old, but I decided not take it (so he's
giving it to his troubled sister).

I live in a suburb of NYC (Floral Park) where it might be useful sometimes,
but its just not worth it just considering the cost of monthly insurance. I
take the bus/subway everywhere and can take many taxis a month before a car
makes more sense.

------
sbierwagen
The obvious dual to "the cheapest generation" is "the poorest generation".
College is twice as expensive, and there are half as many jobs.

~~~
collyw
And they are worse paid in comparison to before. And the generation is
probably far more educated.

------
cenhyperion
“We just think nobody truly understands them yet.”

I don't think that's true. I think that auto manufacturers don't want to
accept that millennials don't associate cars with freedom, independence,
maturity, and sex in the same way that cars were viewed by previous
generations.

At most they're a way to get from point A to B for most millennials, at worst
(if you're a car maker) they're viewed as dirty machines that the world would
be better without.

~~~
sliverstorm
It's always weird to hear other GenY say this. At least for me, growing up
cars were _exactly_ all of those things.

~~~
_delirium
Maybe it's because they were nearly ubiquitous in the middle-class part of
suburban Houston I grew up in, but even though lots of people hard cars, I
somehow didn't really associate any status with them. Someone always had a
car, and if you didn't, someone would pick you up. Nobody except rich kids
owned their _own_ cars, so you weren't driving anything particularly
interesting anyway, just your mom's station wagon. As long as one person in
your circle of friends had use of a car for the day/evening, they could pick
everyone up, and it served the utilitarian purpose of covering the long-ass
distances between stuff, which were impractical to bike or walk (and of course
there was no public transport).

~~~
sliverstorm
Sure, cars weren't status symbols to me or my friends, and I didn't meant to
say they were. I said cars were everything my comment's parent listed- notice
that comment didn't list "status symbol".

------
adamb_
One possible explanation for why Gen Y and younger aren't interested in buying
cars is that the smartphone has replaced what the car once was: The primary
tool for social interaction & experiencing the world.

~~~
vezzy-fnord
I've always seen it from a highly pragmatic perspective as a mere method of
transport.

------
stdbrouw
It's an intriguing idea and there's probably something to it, but what kind of
shitty journalism is this?

> Needless to say, the Great Recession is responsible for some of the decline.

Yep, but somehow that's a boring assumption that doesn't gel with the authors'
thinking so they just brush it aside completely.

> First, gas prices more than doubled, which made car-sharing alluring.

Because the cost of a car-share is somehow independent of gas prices? Really?
(Gas prices may make people less likely to drive everywhere, making a car less
of a useful purchase, making car-sharing more alluring – I'll grant them
that.)

Then it continues with three examples of the "sharing economy", because
obviously three examples is enough to declare a trend.

Sigh...

~~~
warfangle
> Because the cost of a car-share is somehow independent of gas prices?
> Really?

Zip car rentals include gas.

~~~
harpastum
But the rental price _includes_ the price of gas. If gas prices tripled
tomorrow, Zipcar would have to raise their rates.

It's a bit more decoupled for the customer, but it has the same impact
overall.

~~~
YokoZar
If gas prices are expected to be continuously high, you will try to structure
your life in a way that can minimize car usage (say, living in an urban area).
That can make not even owning a car at all a viable option.

If you're such a person, and do happen to occasionally need a car for
something, that makes you much more likely to be a ZipCar customer. Zipcar
doesn't make new customers by having driving be practical, they make new
customers by having driving be impractical enough to be (almost entirely)
avoided.

------
tokenadult
Thread with more than 200 comments discussing this 2012 article from a year
ago:

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4421897](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4421897)

------
jmngomes
_Our government not only doesn 't care about us, it schemes to make things
worse._

This is the main issue for me, I think about it a lot as it seems to me that
we're starting to see the beggining a major change in how people view and
respond to government.

For me, the main (only?) problem with democracy is that it requires citizens
to pay attention and get involved. Voting is the bare minimum. Taxpayers have
to be the watchdog over public spending (it's their money), monitor the
ethical behaviour of elected officials and, ideally, be involved in their
favorite party to keep political careerism low and avoid electing corrupt/for
sale candidates.

Banks can only get as big as regulators allow them to. So it's people that
need to force the regulator into action on their behalf, instead of just
complaining about getting screwed over by a bank rescue due to incompetence or
criminal behaviou.

Whining won't help, only serious participation can save us from an
increasingly shitty life imposed by low IQ and/or unethical politicians.

~~~
collyw
Such faith in the democratic process, when all the evidence points to a
corrupt dysfunctional system.

Occupy Wall Street did a bit more than your minimum of voting. what happened
as a result? Nothing. Obama promised big changes including closing of
Guantanamo. Has that happened?

Voting validates the corrupt system.

~~~
jmngomes
Sistematic protests are fundamental, but hardly all that's necessary.

I saw a guy defending a thesis that makes sense to me: register for a party
and become politically active within your own possibilities, e.g.
participating in local assemblies, voting for candidates, etc. Change has to
come from within.

Obviously, you can't do anything by yourself. You'd need taxpayers to rally up
for a massive participation in political parties; that's why it's so hard.

But anyway, I'd be happy to know some alternatives to this.

------
mlangdon
When the author wrote this article yesterday:

[http://m.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2013/11/how-to-
wri...](http://m.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2013/11/how-to-write-the-
worst-possible-column-about-millennials/281129/)

Had he forgotten about co-writing this trenderrific, millenials-as-failed-
commodity dreck last year?

------
thedrbrian
I wonder if the slower car sales have anything to do with the quality of the
cars? Modern cars are a triumph of engineering and marketing over fun. Over
damped throttles, layers upon layers of "safety" computer systems , auto
gearboxes to cheat the emissions tests , wide tyres and a lack of feel and
fun.

------
astrowizicist
This article is older than the Cheapest Generation.

------
angersock
Here are some scattered observations and opinions as somebody in this
generation. I'm basically just dumping gut feelings here--don't expect a lot
of well-written explanations.

 _There is not a lot worth buying that is long-lasting._ Most everything feels
mass-produced and cheap, and the things that aren't are pretty obviously
marketed at people trying to buck that trend. I don't want to pay 10x more for
something without getting that increase in quality, and the fact is that I
won't get it.

 _There is no reason to trust the banks._ They're a bunch of fucking crooks,
and the smaller the bank (or credit union) the less room they have to be
crooks.

 _Credit rating is bogeyman._ Ever since I was old enough to spend money I was
told to worry about my credit rating, and to take out credit cards, and do all
that other stuff. These messages occurred at about the same time we saw
everyone getting hammered over credit-card debt, and heard the Republicans
chest-beating over sound fiscal policy. It's plainly obvious that you aren't
expected to actually be fiscally sound--otherwise why would they keep flooding
you with credit invitations?

 _Cars are expensive and limited in utility._ Insurance rates are high despite
companies never actually helping you when you need it, gas is expensive as
hell and is clearly being gamed in the commodities market, and commuting is
bullshit as white-collar work becomes either redundant or distributed.

 _Our parents set our city planning up for failure._ I live in the fourth-
largest and sprawliest metropolitan area in North America (Houston). Every
decent improvement is blocked by some greedy Boomer sonovabitch whose business
or view would be mildly inconvenienced by the impact of construction. We have
food deserts, and suburbs actively designed to discourage walking.

 _Our government doesn 't care about us._ Nobody in my generation believes
that Social Security or Mediwhatever will still be around to support us in our
old age. Nobody believes that our vote matters, that the politicians sitting
in office will kowtow to anybody who won't pay for a fucking dinner or make a
fucking donation.

 _Our government not only doesn 't care about us, it schemes to make things
worse._ Because the Boomers and Generation X are still considered important,
their views and more importantly fears are turned into policy. This gives us
the TSA, crazy FDA regs, patent trolling, and all sorts of barriers to
progress.

 _Our companies don 't care about us._ Congratulations, we're all contract
workers now. Pensions? Hah. Healthcare? Cheapest we can justify. Vacation? Go
fuck yourself you needy snowflake. No loyalty, nada, and they expect that they
can reach you on the phone or email at all times.

 _We don 't believe in advertising._ We've had so much marketed to us for so
long so pervasively that we genuinely do not respond to advertising. It's a
developed blind spot, and with the social tools we have available we see no
need to be advertised to--we know what we want, and can just search for it.

 _We don 't believe in the police._ Police are pretty obviously not policing
neighborhoods and aren't on the beat--they're chaotic actors who get involved
and always always always make things worse. The news is filled with stories of
DAs fucking over little guys, of state troopers harassing innocent drivers to
raise a buck, of SWAT teams kicking in homes and shooting dogs.

 _We don 't believe in the news._ It's become easier than ever to find
different coverage on the same stories, and to spot patterns in news-speak.
Every talking head sounds the same, and the news is always obviously slanted
to one side or the other. There is no journalistic integrity anymore, there is
nothing in the mainstream news we can trust.

 _We believe in each other._ The sheer amount of fakeness delivered through
ads and bullshit mass media has made us very interested in "real" things, in
hanging out with our friends, in starting families. It's not that we're self-
centered--it's that so much of the rest of the world is presented through some
exploitative nostalgia that we hold it suspect.

~~~
bradleyjg
Late Gen X here.

If these feelings are widespread amongst Gen Y, that actually makes me
optimistic for the future. Thanks for writing it up.

~~~
milsorgen
30 year old, borderline Y here. OP's points #4, 5, 9, 10 and 12 really nail it
for me. I think I've driven, maybe, 6 months out of my life. Bikes, carpools
and the bus have so far worked out. From the Oregon Coast to Southwest
Idaho... I've never wanted to own a car or even really drive for that matter.
I'm glad there might be more people like me out there.

Full disclosure: I wouldn't mind an '83 cutty, however.

~~~
ahlatimer
I enjoy driving. I don't enjoy sitting in traffic or mindlessly plodding along
a freeway alone in a steel box. I bought a car that I enjoy driving, but I'm
also actively looking for a house in a location that means I don't have to
drive to work. That's the ideal for me: a car for doing auto-x or HPDE or road
trips or whatever, but not _having_ to drive to work or the store or the bar
or…

Edit: Gen Y here (24). I also agree with most of sentiments that OP has.

