
U.S. plans to let spy agencies scour Americans' finances - uptown
http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/03/13/us-usa-banks-spying-idUSBRE92C12720130313
======
lifeisstillgood
NO, NO, NO!

This is like CCTV footage or GPS records. Its either mine and just mine, or it
is freely available to everyone for everyone.

A camera that overlooks a park and is freely streaming to the web is a social
benefit, allowing mothers to check the park before taking children down, and
so on.

A camera overlooking the same park and is _only_ streamed to the CIA is a tool
of an oppressive state.

Lets keep the free society, it has done us well for 200 years

~~~
smackay
200 hundred years is such a short time in terms of human history. A blink of
an eye and it was gone.

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rayiner
This doesn't extend to financial transactions generally, just ones flagged by
banks as "suspicious."

"Financial institutions that operate in the United States are required by law
to file reports of "suspicious customer activity," such as large money
transfers or unusually structured bank accounts, to Treasury's Financial
Crimes Enforcement Network (FinCEN)."

I find it a little bit hyperbolic that people are calling the end of the
republic at the proposal that intelligence agencies have broader access to
financial records they already have access to anyway--financial records that
only cover certain kinds of suspicious transactions.

~~~
ISL
Isn't a 'large money transfer' in this context $10k?

~~~
roc
You can get flagged for much less. (I believe the single transaction limit is
more like 5k)

But they can also flag smaller transactions that appear to fit 'structuring'
patterns. So fairly small innocent transactions can and do get erroneously
flagged.

(Structuring being the practice of breaking up 'large' transactions explicitly
to avoid being flagged.)

~~~
danielweber
ISTR that Eliot Spitzer was pushing for more aggressive treatment of
structuring, and that's exactly how he got caught. No one ever accused
politicians of being consistent, though

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unclebucknasty
When the story is told of our history, people will be amazed that such a great
nation was dismantled with barely a notice.

And no one will recall the exact hour: a little freedom here...a few rights
there...another bit of privacy given over to our government...

~~~
Ovid
So, in my spare time I help people become expats. The (precious few) studies
of US expats show that most of them have moved to other countries for someone
they love, followed by work or adventure (search for von Koppenfels' study).
Very few of us expats have left for political reasons. However, when I talk to
people today who want to leave, while adventure and love are still cited, it's
the political crap in the US which is driving a lot of it. People are telling
me that "the US isn't the country they grew up in." They're saying they can't
fight the Koch Brothers, the Waltons, Big{Oil,Pharma,Banking}, Citizens United
and so on.

I think it's not coincidental that the rate of 18 to 24-year-olds who are
interested in moving abroad has skyrocketed from 12% in 2007 to 40% in 2011
([http://www.americawave.com/2011/10/05/somewhatseriously-
inte...](http://www.americawave.com/2011/10/05/somewhatseriously-interested-
in-relocating-by-age-group-and-year/)) but the number of them _planning_ to
relocate has collapsed ([http://www.americawave.com/2011/10/06/yes-plan-to-
relocate-b...](http://www.americawave.com/2011/10/06/yes-plan-to-relocate-by-
age-group-and-year/)). I think the reason is simple: young people are tired of
the constant bad news but they don't have any money to move abroad.

Interestingly, when they talk to me about this, they're usually not looking
for greener pastures: they aren't assuming the world is better somewhere else
or that they can escape what's going on. Maybe that puts 'em back in the
adventure category instead of moving for political reasons? (That being said,
the demographics between actual expats and would-be expats could be radically
different).

Note for the curious: I moved abroad for adventure, not political reasons.
Five countries and counting.

TL;DR: Young people in the US are waking up from all of the bad news and
wondering what it would be like to live somewhere else, but they think they
don't have the money to leave the US.

~~~
RougeFemme
I would think the a big reason that 18 to 24-year olds are willing to consider
moving abroad is the lousy job market since 2007 - due to a variety of
reasons, not the least of which was the financial "crisis".

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janlukacs
Guilty until proven innocent. Why not, the state should do whatever it takes
to protect you, right? :) Having lived as a kid in a communist state in
eastern europe i'm starting to think people in the US got so politically
"lazy" that they are starting to forget what freedom means.

~~~
kunai
> _i'm starting to think people in the US got so politically "lazy" that they
> are starting to forget what freedom means._

This. A thousand times this. You nailed it. People here don't give a damn
about freedom. They don't care if it keeps getting taken away, because their
lives aren't affected directly. When it starts, though, they'll get up in arms
about it.

It's no use, though. The government isn't going to change unless people do
something right now. Waiting until a government actively takes rights away
from you to protest is irresponsible, to say the least.

Part of this problem stems from the horrendously broken public school system.
Kids are not taught to think for themselves, rather, herd mentality is not
only the norm, but it is _encouraged_! Why do you think so many people vote
consistently Democratic or consistently Republican rather than independently?
Why do you think half of the country still believes that there's a (supposedly
"loving") giant bearded man in the sky deciding whether people should suffer
eternally or be on cloud nine?

"A government big enough to give you everything you want is big enough to take
away everything you have."

~~~
kiba
_This. A thousand times this. You nailed it. People here don't give a damn
about freedom. They don't care if it keeps getting taken away, because their
lives aren't affected directly. When it starts, though, they'll get up in arms
about it._

People do care about freedom. There are a lot of folks who love the 2nd
amendment. They just need to care more for the other amendments instead of
just the 2nd amendment.

 _Part of this problem stems from the horrendously broken public school
system. Kids are not taught to think for themselves, rather, herd mentality is
not only the norm, but it is encouraged! Why do you think so many people vote
consistently Democratic or consistently Republican rather than independently?
Why do you think half of the country still believes that there's a (supposedly
"loving") giant bearded man in the sky deciding whether people should suffer
eternally or be on cloud nine?_

Why do you think you have critical thinking skills?

~~~
sliverstorm
_Why do you think you have critical thinking skills?_

Well, he's the exception of course!

------
adolph
It would be nice if they had an API to show me if I am overpaying for auto
insurance or if another bank has better interest rates. Probably Intuit would
lobby against it...

------
kunai
A comment posted on the original article:

"It’s time to Investigate all Activities from The GOP and Tea Party and
Wealthy ,Because They are The Real Terrorist Americans Citizens,For That
Reason they are scare to the drones.The History from the wealthy in this
country is not Very clean ,For That Reason The FBI has to Investigate This
People.They Want Shut Down The Federal Government."

These people are the problem. There needs to be an IQ and political education
test before people can register to vote.

Sound crazy? Yes. Extreme? Yes? Will it work? Maybe; probably not. Is it worth
a shot? At the rate things are going, I'd say definitely.

By the way, expect a posting about this on rms' blog way before anybody else
heard about it.

EDIT: Found another politically uneducated comment:

"You need to replace every mention of CIA with obama. HE is the one behind
this crime and HE is the one 'in direct contradiction to their oath and the
4th Amendment.'"

My goodness.

EDIT: Interesting that people seem to think the only choice is blue or red.
Ever heard of the Libertarian Party?

"@sjfella, seriously man, do you think Romney with his neo-con Bush advisers
would have done any better with respect to maintaining of civil liberties
while still hunting down terrorists? IMO, it would have been much worse under
a Romney administration, we probably would have never even heard of this and
they would still be doing it. The right and the neo-cons are the ones that
want to throw out all our values just to fight the ‘war on terror’, hence
things like the Patriot Act and Gitmo."

~~~
DannoHung
I think you shouldn't be allowed to comment. Because you clearly haven't
though your position out very well. Do you also support disenfranchising the
mentally disabled, such as people with Down's syndrome or autism?

~~~
kunai
This isn't about ego or arrogance. This is about the future of the United
States of America.

I do not support disenfranchising the mentally disabled. If they are
politically studied enough that they can make an intelligent decision about
how to vote for somebody, then of course they should be able to vote.

Why should there be a different standard for them than for anybody else? A
disability doesn't mean that discrimination is an absolute certainty.

~~~
king_jester
> If they are politically studied enough that they can make an intelligent
> decision about how to vote for somebody, then of course they should be able
> to vote.

You do not get to define how well "studied" someone has to be to participate
in voting. Anything you find acceptable is highly politicized and guarantees
voter disenfranchisement for a number of groups of people.

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sliverstorm
I was surprised- haven't agencies been using finance information to track and
bring down big criminals for decades?

This explains it:

 _The Federal Bureau of Investigation already has full access to the database.
However, intelligence agencies, such as the Central Intelligence Agency and
the National Security Agency, currently have to make case-by-case requests for
information to FinCEN._

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xradionut
It's probably already being done covertly. I assume anything done on the
internet or the normal banking/financial/credit system is subject to capture.
Combine that with all the social media and other government agency , and you
could build a reasonable compete profile on any individual participating.

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danenania
You know what maximizes the effectiveness of law enforcement? A totalitarian
society. Consider this every time you hear about a new power grab that is
justified by 'it will help us catch the bad guys'.

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gambiting
When I was a kid I always hoped to emigrate to America one day. Such a great
country. Now I think I would not want to become a US citizen even if I was
getting paid for it.

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belorn
This make sense. They initially only had bank data from EU, since that was an
easier political target to go at. That meant that the first step went through
without any issues, so they can now go and expand the scope.

It doesn't make it right, but it follow some well known roads in how database
systems over people get created.

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SageRaven
Time for everyone to order teddy bears, propane bottles, and a copy of the
Quran from Amazon whenever they book a plane ticket. Bring back the "spook
fodder" concept from the heydays of USENET.

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polarix
Buy bitcoins now.

~~~
mindslight
Why? So you unambiguously know that all your transactions are reported and
data mined? sigh.

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gnosis
It must be nice to have finances.

