
My Amazon Burnout Experience - amzn_throwaway
https://gist.github.com/anonymous/c1f6419d54d80af6c079
======
tsunamifury
It seems obvious that this person is aware they don't work well with others,
and actively refuses to try to do better -- while writing a self-aggrandizing
story about how he is both the smartest person in the room and most everyone
around him was an idiot. He seems to believe there was no one else smart at
Amazon either, and all projects that 'got in his way' were created my simple
minded peons. This type of retrospective naiveté smacks of narcissism.

I'm not saying Amazon is a great place to work -- but its clear this person
isn't a great person to work with.

~~~
amzn_throwaway
I wasn't planning on responding to anything, but your comment has enough truth
that the criticism is worth responding to.

I _am_ aware that I don't work as well as I could with others, especially
those who hold lots of power but little technical aptitude. Its not out of a
smug sense of superiority...I recognize these people are very much my superior
in other ways. It is probably limitations of my vocabulary and inexperience at
conveying complex ideas with common language. I have no problem claiming to
possess numeric and analytical intelligence, but social intelligence is a
daily struggle. I even recognize that I was probably hard to manage from a
higher-than-direct level, especially when I let my frustrations get the best
of me.

Regardless, I find that to be beside the point I am trying to make.

I was sold on a meritocratic position under a boss who believed in a
meritocratic ideal, and _I thought I could do that job well_. As the job was
described to me, and as I was told of my criteria for promotion, I actually
_did_ do that job well. However, I was judged by a standard that was opaque,
never communicated clearly (in fact, some internal rules prohibit a more clear
explanation), and I languished for several years in absolute naivety and
ignorance while believing every line they fed to me hook, line, and sinker. It
took someone who actually cared about me as a person to open up and explain
how it all really worked before I got it.

My story _absolutely_ is one of being hard to work with, having naive
expectations, and going about things all wrong. But it is also one about being
lied to repeatedly about how to do my job right, destroying my quality of life
in the pursuit of the game as it was communicated to me, being cast aside for
people who played the deliberately obscured game better, and getting burnt out
by it. And given the recent statements by senior level executives about how
Amazon is so meritocratic, it is a story of how even those who rise to the
high performance meritocratic expectations that they talk about can get
obliterated by aspects of the company culture that those same executives claim
do not exist.

I'm not perfect, but I knew well before I started that political intelligence
was a weak spot for me...and if I had any indication of how insanely political
the promotion process was, I probably would have never accepted the offer. I
wanted the meritocratic Amazon that was sold to me.

~~~
buckbova
> I was sold on a meritocratic position under a boss who believed in a
> meritocratic ideal

I've found in the places I've worked there's a ceiling on a meritocracy in the
workplace. Being the smartest, fastest, best worker doesn't get you through to
those high level promotions.

You need to play the game. If you refuse, then be happy you are getting as
much pay and good work as you are getting. Or, work for yourself.

------
legitster
I'm familiar with a high-level executive assistant at Amazon, and they are
well aware of the "burnouts". It's very intentional. Amazon is acquiring young
talent, extracting as much value from them, and making no efforts to retain
them.

Among the local tech scene in Seattle, there's a quiet view that Amazon is
kind of a boot camp where young workers get experience then move on.

~~~
omouse
> _Among the local tech scene in Seattle, there 's a quiet view that Amazon is
> kind of a boot camp where young workers get experience then move on._

That's the common view of digital agencies too; the turn-over will always be
high and people are there just to gain experience because the projects are
between 2 to 6 months long so within 1 year you're going to be working on at
least 2 projects that will launch and be visible to the public.

It isn't a bad business model for the execs at the top; but eventually
someone's going to eat your lunch. If you look at agencies, much of those
short-term projects don't really increase revenue: I've yet to see any agency
that does a retrospective _with a client in the room_ and _proves_ that they
helped increase their revenues. In Amazon's case...well they're lucky they
have a lot of cool projects to work on but others will eat their lunch
eventually.

------
fsloth
Great text for all the green geeks moving into corporate world: _not_
prioritizing the things your boss wants to prioritize is precisely the _wrong_
thing to do. It's not evil, it's called building trust and trust is the key
glue in all orgs.

Like in any relationship, first one needs to prove that one is trustworthy.
Then, if there are these great projects they need to be sold to ones boss
before moving forward.

While I appreciate the fact that Amazon might not have the best employer
culture I think the OP would have been burnt at any big corp.

It's great to have vision and initiative - but the thing is, either you do
those on your own time or then get management backing first.

I have the highest sympathies for burning out - it sucks. Perhaps there should
be a "How to live in a corporate culture for dummies" book somewhere.

------
dmourati
"Amazon hires intelligent people, and they retain the sociopaths"

That is a damning statement that unfortunately has the ring of truth to me.

~~~
buckbova
To me this also rings of "I'm too morally superior to engage in corporate
politics."

Suck it up and kiss ass, suppress information when necessary, make
allegiances, and whatever else is if you want to move up in that structure.

If all this is beneath you, then time to work for yourself.

~~~
dmourati
Agree, ya. I have a hard time kissing ass but I realized what I needed to do
to advance was a little different.

In my case, the key was to _stop_ actively pissing people off. Maybe just a
change of perspective but it has helped me a good deal.

People who say they don't play politics just reveal themselves as unable to
perceive and react to the daily goings on.

------
joezydeco
I know Bezos had to come out and say "gee guys, nothing's wrong here, I've
never seen any problems", both for the sake of positive P/R spin and for his
shareholders who would rather not see a brain drain happen.

But to double down and claim nothing is wrong is just inviting a flood of
anecdotes from current and ex-employees, like this one and like the one from
an Amazon spouse yesterday.

[http://qz.com/482080/dear-jeff-bezos-i-wish-you-had-asked-
fo...](http://qz.com/482080/dear-jeff-bezos-i-wish-you-had-asked-for-my-
feedback-sooner/)

------
dantillberg
> If I wanted to accomplish my goals (which I am ostensibly judged on for
> promotion), I had to do it on my own time.

At a former job as a software engineer at a smallish (~250 employees or so)
enterprise, I sat down quarterly with my manager to sketch out "my" goals for
the quarter. I did my best to set my sights high, and I outlined technical
goals (underneath most folks' radar but my own) that I wished to accomplish.

Ultimately, though, I didn't have the authority to set my own priorities.
Generally speaking, I was assigned work to execute, and it was my job to
complete that work; I was not supposed to choose, as the OP did, that my goals
were ever more important. But I did. I still _tried_ to make progress on my
goals, either by delaying completion of assigned tasks, or by staying late and
hacking away after everyone else went home.

Looking back, it would have been better for me (because you do get judged on
this stuff in reviews) to just write down goals for myself along the lines of
"do the work that is assigned to me", "keep management informed whenever I am
unable to do the work that is assigned to me in the timeframe expected", and
"report to the office during business hours."

It's great to have employees that are passionate about making your business
succeed. But you need to wield that passion during normal working hours --
don't hope that it somehow seeps out of the cracks during evenings and
weekends.

------
thoughtpalette
I get

"Whoa there! You have triggered an abuse detection mechanism. Please wait a
few minutes before you try again."

When trying to visit the page. Can anyone post it in the comments?

~~~
martin_
Me too, luckily it's in google cache:
[http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:https:/...](http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:https://gist.github.com/anonymous/c1f6419d54d80af6c079)

~~~
thoughtpalette
Thank you!

------
archimedespi
Good grief, this is the first time I've seen Github rate limit anything.

~~~
codazoda
Glad it wasn't just me. For a minute there I thought that I had done something
to get rate limited personally.

------
SiVal
I had to laugh at how familiar this all sounded. I've observed again and again
how there was an inherent conflict of interest in a hierarchy of ambitious
people trying to climb the ever-narrowing tree between serving the company and
serving those few who are responsible for your own promotion.

The bigger the company gets, the bigger the conflict, because as a company
grows, your contribution is known to a shrinking subset of the company and
your distance from the people at the top (whose compensation is most benefited
by overall company success) increases to the point that you become invisible
to them.

Your promotion will almost always be determined by your immediate subtree of
superiors. If you want your contribution to the company overall to count for
more, you have to work for a company where your personal subtree and the
company itself differ less, e.g., a smaller company.

------
adekok
FTA: I always prioritized my work based on a cost/benefit estimate. Amazon
culture always places higher priority on work that direct-line superiors
consider higher priority. If I had a billion dollar project in the backlog, I
could still have my time redirected towards a Senior Manager's pet project or
a Director's pet peeve.

i.e. the managers goals are not in line with Amazons goals. If we believe the
OP. this dissonance is costing Amazon billions of dollars.

I know corporate politics are bad, but that takes the cake.

~~~
shoyer
As a lower level employee, you often lack the context to understand what the
most important priority is. Even if you do have that context, you need to be
able to convince management. Simply doing "what you think is right" is not a
path to success in any company. So I'm not surprised that this turned out
poorly for the OP.

~~~
calbear81
The author definitely did not consider that there are goals outside of saving
Amazon money that could be important from a strategic perspective that they
would have appreciated his/her help on.

------
erickhill
What a shame that someone flagged this article (who knows why?). I was finding
the comments rather interesting enlightening. Then 'poof!'

~~~
dantillberg
Aye, this is the second time today a post that's interested me has gotten
tanked.

The silence with which moderation on HN is wielded has been frustrating me of
late.

~~~
studentrob
It only takes a few people flagging to kill it. Say, a few heads at Amazon.
Quite annoying when there is lively discussion, I agree

------
ericjang
Link is down due to Github's rate limiting. Mirror anyone?

~~~
tostaki
[http://pastebin.com/taccdWUn](http://pastebin.com/taccdWUn)

------
nsfyn55
Polymath? Pshhhaw. And I thought referring to oneself as a "genius" was the
pinnacle of self-aggrandizement. Sorry friend you are not a genius, you are
not a polymath, and given amazon's volume a 6 or 7 figure savings is likely
indistinguishable from a rounding error. And while we're on the subject. Why
doesn't he share the nature of his advanced degree in a quantitative
discipline that puts him on equal footing with the world's leading
econometricians rather than pulling the old neo bullet dodge?

------
chrismarlow9
[http://pastebin.com/q0YYj7RY](http://pastebin.com/q0YYj7RY) mirror

------
hartator
I think it's weird that's not on the home anymore - 110 points in 6 hours as
for now.

------
lazylizard
our job is not to find the most efficient way to solve a problem. far from
that. its to make the customer look good to his boss. - some previous
workplace

------
fapjacks
Amazon called me up one day trying to recruit. I haven't shuddered like that
in a very long time.

~~~
nsfyn55
Don't bother. At first you look at your inbox and think "Amazon? me really?" I
responded only to find out this was a mass spam campaign. They found me via
LinkedIn, said "Our senior management as indicated your experience is exactly
what we are looking to hire", then proceeded to ask me what my experience was.
Hashtag this company has become a joke.

~~~
fapjacks
Yeah, absolutely it's obvious. These days though it seems they send out "Your
experience is exactly what we're looking for........... Come visit our hiring
event in <bigass city>". I don't even read them anymore. Just straight to the
trash.

------
jedicoffee
"there is"...

