
Using Windows 10? Microsoft is watching - williamtrask
http://www.newsweek.com/windows-10-recording-users-every-move-358952
======
0xffffabcd
Previous discussions:

* [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9976298](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9976298)

* [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9978497](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9978497)

* [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9989189](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9989189)

* [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9983071](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9983071)

* [https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9975695](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9975695)

And these are just the ones about privacy... it get old, especially since
nothing has changed since the release yet.

~~~
static_noise
> it gets old

and yet it still is an urgent issue that we should not silently accept because
it's "getting old" and "nothing will change".

~~~
forthefuture
Except when the same information is posted by 6 websites and all 6 of those
articles have made the front page, you start to alienate people in the middle
who understand all of the current information and are now unhappy with the one
sided coverage and angry internet mob of people who already weren't using
Windows.

------
fru2013
Non paywalled: [https://archive.is/xlu7p](https://archive.is/xlu7p)

~~~
Dylan16807
Thanks. It was insisting I had 'used up' free articles despite having not
visited the site in months.

~~~
rffn
Did the same for me. Incognito mode in Chrome fixed that though.

------
PythonicAlpha
The line is crossed. When we don't stop it now, this will be the end of
privacy for every computer user -- at least of commercial OSs.

Even with the possibility to deactivate all this, the user consented to the
"privacy terms" \-- so the OS can even collect data "by error" \-- and they
will come away with it.

To trust such a company again, there would be a second set of privacy terms
needed, that would be used for everybody that rejects the data collection. But
I don't think, that there will be a second set of terms at all (for that to
happen, a majority of people must start to think about their privacy).

------
zatkin
A lot of this can be disabled.

For example, using a local account and not a Microsoft account. I'm guessing
that's where the author got his notion of "contact details, passwords,
demographic data and credit card specifics".

Also, if you go to the Privacy settings, you can disable things like Cortana
and other services.

~~~
morganvachon
Exactly. I challenge anyone who complains about the "new"[1] data logging in
Windows 10 to take a hard look at Google's policies as well. They record just
as much, sometimes more, when you use their services. Their email service in
particular is 100% invasive: They literally read every word of your email and
any email you receive, whether the person who sent it to you consents or not.

But it's Google, so of course they get a pass in the media.

[1] If you turn off all the privacy invading options when setting up Windows
10 (choose "Customize" instead of "Express"), there is no more logging than
Windows 7 does by default. Somehow that is never mentioned in these articles
though.

~~~
pdkl95
"Other people are data-thieves too!" and "We've been stealing data from for a
long time" are not justifications for MS's current bad behavior. This isn't
about Google, even though they are worse in many ways.

A big part of the problem is the creeping-normalization of these practices,
where bad behavior is excused simply because it is common. This is how "big
lie" propaganda works, and the apparatchik can always be relied upon to find
some excuse for why we should just ignore any problems.

~~~
jasonlotito
> "Other people are data-thieves too!" and "We've been stealing data from for
> a long time" are not justifications for MS's current bad behavior. This
> isn't about Google, even though they are worse in many ways.

I think the issue is really this: how many people complaining about these
issues are using an Android or iOS device? How many are using OSX or search
using Google? How many use Gmail?

So you say it's not justification? Actions speak louder than words. I've seen
people posting about this on Facebook.

This doesn't excuse the behavior, but the reality is, the people complaining
don't really care to change. They just want to pretend to be upset. Take the
article this is linked to. The website on which it sits. The amount of
tracking that occurs. The uproar is huge, no doubt. But I wonder how much of
the uproar is sincere. And how much is just aiming for cheap internet points
and likes.

~~~
pdkl95
I don't have an Android or iOS device, nor do I use Gmail. I certainly don't
have a Facebook account. I use Free Software and pay fastmail.fm for my email
services.

It is never a good idea to project your own hypocrisy onto everybody else.

As for people caring to change - you're assuming people even understand that
this is happening and what the consequences are. Even in the case where
someone does understand, the common attitude that I've seen is feeling trapped
without any non-spyware options. How many people "don't really care", and how
many are unable to move because of vendor lock-in?

~~~
jasonlotito
> It is never a good idea to project your own hypocrisy onto everybody else.

I didn't. I was speaking generally. I don't call you out specifically. In
fact, I explicitly make mention that there are probably people who are sincere
about this. What I wonder is how much of the uproar is from people that do use
an Android or iOS device. That do use Gmail. That use Facebook or Google+. Or
support companies that share data.

Simply put: next time, don't be so antagonistic. I wasn't projecting anything
onto anyone else, including you. Rereading my comment, I can only assume that
you misread what I wrote, and assumed I said things I did not.

~~~
dandelion_lover
I am using gmail account and I am a part of this 'uproar'. There is no
contradiction here, despite you may think so. I just used 'normal' services as
(almost) everyone and at some point I found Stallman's articles and they
opened me the whole new world.

It is however not easy at all to switch to free software right from the first
day. You have to change quite a few workflows. I have a job and I cannot just
spend a month to reinstall everything and to get used to free software
alternatives. I switch to these alternatives slowly but constantly.

Simply put: "how many people complaining about these issues are using an
Android or iOS device?" is irrelevant. What relevant is how many people know
about it and will be happy to change it, but not necessarily for these high
costs as I pay.

------
static_noise
We can't even be sure what they're really doing because we cannot audit the
software nor can we audit the encrypted communications.

~~~
moloch
It's not difficult to intercept this type of encrypted communication, since
it's coming from your computer you can just hook the functions responsible for
sending the data, or for encrypting it in the first place. Many times it's as
simple as adding your own CA to the trusted certificate store.

~~~
pdkl95
That works now, but one the Intel SGX instructions are commonplace it is going
to be next to impossible to modify "secured" code or read their RAM.

------
hoodoof
I thought Microsoft provided clear information on this and options to turn it
all off when installing.

~~~
PhasmaFelis
That's largely meaningless when the default settings are abusive. They know
that most users won't be aware of the issues, and will choose "Express
Install" rather than looking at the "advanced" options, so MS can still
exploit them without their knowledge.

~~~
hoodoof
Microsoft is a business. Why would it serve their interests to make all this
opt-out by default?

~~~
PhasmaFelis
Are you saying that it's hopeless to expect businesses not to be jerks, or
that it's morally acceptable to be a jerk as long as the shareholders see a
return on it?

~~~
forthefuture
It's more that a business can't be a jerk because it's not a person. It
doesn't matter if it's morally acceptable as long as it's legal. Morality is
something you make up to tell other people that what you believe in is right.

------
iscrewyou
I was excited for the new Windows at first. Given that I haven't heard about a
single groundbreaking improvement Win 10 brings but only privacy violations,
I'll no longer be supporting Microsoft. I removed my bootcamp partition Win
8.1(that I wanted to upgrade to Win 10) last night. Only using Mac version of
excel. I'll make sure we never(or hold off for as long as possible) move on to
Win 10 at the office, just like we did for Win 8.

As a consumer, the only power I have is that I'll put my money where my mouth
is. And it is no longer Microsoft.

Yes, Apple has it's issues. But I clearly see where they want to be and they
have 100% of my support. Microsoft, no longer.

edit: grammar

~~~
notNow
When did downvoting actually prevent you from seeing or reading "unfavorable"
or "heretic" comments here?

Your downvoting won't stop me or any other dissident here from speaking our
mind and exposing the hypocrisy or ridiculousness of this type of cheap
advertorials here.

Keep downvoting me, it's a badge of honor to wear on my chest :)

~~~
ColinWright
From the guidelines[0]:

    
    
        In Comments
        ...
        Please don't bait other users by
        inviting them to downvote you.
    

[0]
[https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html](https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html)

------
lbruder
Maybe Windows 10 is the best thing that ever happened to Linux...

~~~
agumonkey
But I'm sure Mr Stallman is feeling a great disturbance in the force. As if a
million soul have been coerced into non-privacy.

------
zatkin
On a tangental remark, data is an enormous asset in a company these days. What
if they released Windows 10 for free because the data is already worth enough
compared to the typical cost of the operating system ($100)?

~~~
cosarara97
I thought it was Office, not Windows, which brought the money in. So they
could have done this regardless of the price of the data they are collecting.

~~~
zatkin
Think about how many people use Windows. Now think about all of those users
multiplied by all of their activity. Now hook up to the stream of all that
data (because you know that the majority of those users won't go through the
technical hassles of updating their settings). Now think about what you can do
with that data. You can keep it internal and start to make really, really
accurate predictions based directly off of users actions. And you get all that
data for free.

------
mark_l_watson
It seems like a lot of journalists have jumped on the 'bash Microsoft for
privacy' bandwagon this week. Seems lazy. Can't they think of something else
to write about?

I am a 'privacy nut' to some small degree. I use 3 Linux laptops that are
locked down privacy-wise. But I also use Google, Microsoft, and Apple
services. I set my privacy setting for Windows 10 to not report back much data
to Cortana.

The thing is, when I talk with non-tech friends and family, most of them don't
seem to care about privacy. They put lots of personal information on Facebook
and generally want the best user experience for the devices they buy.

For most people, the default Windows 10 settings are probably what they want.
If a non-tech friend wants a secure system I point them to a Chromebook and if
they want privacy I point them to an iPad (with the best privacy settings like
not using permanent cookies, even if they need to login to web sites they
use).

------
mtgx
The "new" Microsoft seems to have changed its tune from the "Gmail man" and
"Scroogle" days.

~~~
9872
Because those ads didn't work. All they did was prove that the vast majority
of people don't care about digital privacy.

~~~
azakai
And the sad thing is, they still don't, and Windows users will keep using
Windows 10 after this flurry of articles dies down.

~~~
9872
Other people have different priorities than you do? How "sad".

------
Systemic33
Honestly, this is getting a bit tiresome.

The world has displayed a lack of interest in privacy with regards to digital
systems. Therefore Microsoft has chosen to enable features required for making
the computer more personalized by default, but still allow users to opt-out.

Most other vendors don't even give this oppertunity when installing, but can
only be done later via some deep-down config change.

If you are paranoid about your data privacy, please just use one of the many
privacy focused OS's. In the end you will always be forced to trust something,
or you might as well go off the grid in a third world country. Because thats
really the only place complete privacy is realistic.

~~~
pdkl95
> displayed a lack of interest in privacy

The tech industry really needs to stop confusing "lack of interest" with
"total ignorance". Very few people have any idea that this kind of data
collection happens at all (because the tech industry hides a lot of it), and
even fewer understand the consequences of permanent retention of data and what
machine learning can do to it.

> If you are paranoid about your data privacy

[http://harpers.org/archive/1964/11/the-paranoid-style-in-
ame...](http://harpers.org/archive/1964/11/the-paranoid-style-in-american-
politics/)

------
LoSboccacc
are we gonna run one of these every day?

~~~
static_noise
If it helps to improve the situation someday I'm all for it.

~~~
orionblastar
In order to make Windows 10 upgrades free, the customer is now the product.
Most AI stuff collects data like that anyway.

Anything you say to Siri in iOS goes to Apple.

Ubuntu has Amazon adware in it.

Most operating systems these days have some way to collect data on the user
and monetize it or whatever.

This is the only way to get your privacy back: [https://prism-
break.org/](https://prism-break.org/)

