

37 Signals hates competition - dimitry
http://www.amemototheinternet.com/2008/06/11/37signals-hates-competition/

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brianlash
For what it's worth I think this is a weak argument. The posts at Signal v
Noise never encourage you to "slow down" for the sake of slowing down... they
just encourage you to think about starting up in a different light. If you can
take life as a startup founder easier, yet be more productive or generally
have a more fulfilling experience, so much the better.

Anyway it seems an unlikely strategy that to quell competition 37signals tries
to injure _everyone's_ productivity by way of deliberately poor advice. I just
don't see how the author makes that logical step (or the point isn't defended
well).

Only my take.

~~~
nonrecursive
If the author really thinks 37s doesn't like competition, he should address
why they would open source the framework created from their flagship product.
Seriously, why would a company that wants to prevent others from competing
with them give away the tools they use for increasing productivity and making
it easier to realize innovative ideas?

37signals is trying to spread what they think are good ideas - the techniques
and models that have worked for them. If you've ever talked to them you'll
find they do this because they're passionate ideas, not because they want to
harm an entire industry. Jason Fried has been talking about "embracing
constraints" for how long now? And he does it only out of malice? He speaks
about these ideas at events and organizations to people who would never
compete with 37signals because he's scared of competition? This idea is so
stupid it's laughable.

The only point he might have (and I don't think he's even making it) is that
37signals is not what most people think of as a startup. Over the past few
months it seems like 37signals has been trying to change part of the
definition of "startup" - they're trying to change the class of companies to
which the term "startup" applies but keep the connotations of independence,
adventure, and creativity.

~~~
davidu
That would have been a better point to make, you're right.

As noted elsewhere, AMTTI is more of a personal rant board. I'll work on
making the content a bit more cogent in the future as I'd like it to mature
beyond that...

~~~
ntoshev
You should blog when you have something to say, not just because you want to
critique someone.

~~~
davidw
Criticism is fine (and I think there is room for a good critique of
37signals). Just pretend that you're saying what you're writing directly to
the person in question, and adjust your tone as a consequence.

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davidw
I'd like to read some good, well thought out criticism of 37signals, but this
isn't it. Unfortunate, as David U is a smart guy:

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Ulevitch>

~~~
davidu
That's pretty reasonable. I'll try to make more salient arguments next time. A
Memo To The Internet is more of a rant board... but I'll start cleaning it up.

~~~
cdr
Have you listened to/talked to any of the 37signals guys? It's hard to believe
you would make such silly arguments if you had.

(I'd respond on the post itself, but there's a lot more noise in those
comments.)

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ricardo
This comes across as a rant from someone who doesn't understand how 37Signals
became successful.

They seem to practice what they preach. It may not be the right approach for
everyone, but it definitely works for them.

How does having only 10 employees after 9 years not count as growing slowly?

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petermarks
My biggest criticism of 37 Signals is how easy they make selling simple
products out to be. It's hard to imagine their success without the onslaught
of positive attention rails has given them.

That said, this protectionist deliberate misinformation theory is pretty
absurd.

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gscott
From the article, I doubt it is 37Signals plan to make others develop more
slowly so 37Signals retains more customers.

Consider SalesForce and others that have the same and greater functionality.

There are hundreds of options in the same space, SurgarCRM, phpGroupWare, my
own officezilla.com. There is plenty of choice and it is not like 37Signals
dominates in any way. They are far from the dominate leader in there space
(and they don't claim to be).

I don't believe they have a lifestyle business, they have a very good business
that is profitable and growing. They might not claim to be out marketing &
promoting, but it sure does seem like they have plenty of marketing and
promotion through "submarine" tactics rather then overt (here is our ad)
methods.

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allang
Since when is competition something a business should foster? They should, in
fact, do everything within their power to make competition as hard as
possible. This typically happens with things like patents, trademarks,
copyrights, exclusive agreements, etc.

But it doesn't really matter because this blog post is a statement, not an
argument. It is equally as persuasive as an entry which says the exacty
opposite ("37 Signals loves competition") since the blogger gives no reason
for his position.

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far33d
I generally hate the meta-conversations about story quality and the necessity
for a down-arrow - but this story was the most awful (and obvious flame-bait)
story I've seen voted to #1.

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andreyf
PG! I want my downvote-story button!

~~~
gommm
me too... while david ulevitch is, I believe, a smart guy, this article is
utter headline grabbing nonsense.

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tptacek
"And for my sixth blog post, following up such gems as 'Rickrolling has been
retired. We get it. It was funny. It’s over now. You can stop.', quoted here
in its entirety, I am going to perform the amazing feat of baiting Hacker
News."

We get it. It was funny. Can you stop now?

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extantproject
37 Signals has sustained revenue. They are not a startup in the same sense as
YC or Silicon Valley thinks of a startup but they have the linchpin of a
healthy business -- and every healthy business dislikes competition.

~~~
xirium
> every business dislikes competition.

Not true. A struggling business dislikes competition. A healthy business likes
competition. A competitor validates your market and frames a choice. With a
competitor, a customer doesn't just have the choice of buying from A or not. A
customer now has to consider buying from A or B (or buying nothing). When
you've got dozens of competitors, you've got a market.

~~~
extantproject
Competitors do validate your market. That doesn't mean you like them (e.g.
<http://www.apple.com/getamac/ads/>).

~~~
xirium
You're doing it wrong if it becomes a grudge match. See
<http://blog.guykawasaki.com/2006/03/the_art_of_driv.html>

(Yes, I am aware that Guy Kawasaki marketed the Apple MacIntosh at launch.)

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ntoshev
The article doesn't have anything to say, except that they hate 37signals. Why
does this get promoted here?!!

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wumi
simple argument: huddlechat

37signals should be (and apparently is) afraid of simple integration with the
Gmail/Google apps suite by Google.

They would eat 37signals lunch.

~~~
unalone
I don't know. Google is very good at making well-programmed apps, but they
don't make them enjoyable to use. They're usually fairly cluttered visually if
not in terms of features, and their stuff is minimal to a fault.

Campfire, I think, is still a much better app than Google Talk, partly because
it gives the chat so much space to breathe.

And I don't think all PROGRAMMERS care about that, but a significant number of
DESIGNERS do.

~~~
wumi
huddlechat=campfire and was made on Google App Engine in like a week or
something.

37signals IS successful because their stuff is minimal, which, again, is why
Google would eat their lunch.

~~~
pchristensen
But copying something doesn't mean you can come up with the next thing.

~~~
wumi
See Gmail. Google will do it better. Moreover, the integration with Google
Apps/Docs automatically increases its versatility for someone already using
Google Apps

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nuggien
amen.

~~~
nuggien
wow, lots of 37signals fanbitches on here.

~~~
allenbrunson
you weren't downmodded for agreeing with the story, it was because your
comment was substance-less. nobody here wants to read "me too"-type things,
it's just a waste of time.

if you've got something to add to the conversation, by all means, do so. if
you've got nothing to say but "me too," just mod the story up and move on.

~~~
nuggien
yea, great job on posting a comment that has nothing to do with this story.

~~~
allenbrunson
The way this site's values are carried forward is the older hands show the
newer ones how things are done around here. That sort of community maintenance
might happen anywhere, on-topic for the current submission or not.

But heck, if you're really hellbent on not listening to advice, go right ahead
doing what you're doing. It's possible your account's karma will wind up in
negative numbers and then get deleted, but that's hardly the end of the world,
I guess.

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Flemlord
100% agree. The "advice" coming out of 37 signals is completely ridiculous.
Don't hire overachievers. Only work 4 days a week. Take 6 weeks of vacation.

