
Decline of Greyhound service mirrors rural Canada's plight - macbookaries
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/oct/29/canada-greyhound-bus-ending-urban-rural?CMP=share_btn_tw
======
cmrdporcupine
When I moved to Toronto from Edmonton -- back in the 90s .com boom -- I did it
via Greyhound. Under $100 to make it across the country, with all my vinyl
records and a few other possessions in boxes under the bus. 50+ hours, reading
Dune while popping sleeping pills and muscle relaxants to stay sedated and
comfortable, most of that in the wide swathes of northern Ontario... lakes,
trees, rocks, lakes, trees rocks, repeat.

Can't say it is the best of memories, but pretty profound ones. It was my
future wife (then a good friend) who met me at the bus station off Dundas
Street.

~~~
steve_adams_86
I love this excerpt of your life. I was pretty young at that point, but had
similar experiences (though shorter trips) going up and down BC as a teenager.
Instead of techno records I had CDs in a case on my lap. Eventually (after 4
or 5 years) someone was decapitated on a bus and my parents insisted I take a
car. Strange times and a much worse ending than yours.

I'm sometimes nostalgic for the trees, rocks, lakes, etc. No concerns other
than my discman running out of batteries or running out of change for drinks
at bus stop vending machines.

edit: Remembering now that toward the end I had an iPod mini. That would have
been 2008. The problem with the iPod was that you couldn't swap batteries.

~~~
sho
And your comment brought back memories for me, too. For various reasons when I
was young I had to fly internationally a lot, and I have memories of endless
hours sitting in dark cabins listening to the CDs I'd bought in the previous
country, checking my precious supply of AAs and drinking every coke in the
plane. Or the hours spent waiting for connecting flights in dim airports,
again with nothing but my trusty discman for company. Damn I loved that
discman!

I think it was the nostalgia for endless travel that led me to book a 7-day
rail pass in Japan a few years ago, and spend the entire week just catching
trains to nowhere, staying a few hours, and catching them back - spending the
entire trip just staring out the window as the countryside flew past at
300kph. In many ways I can't remember ever feeling more relaxed.

~~~
steve_adams_86
Wow, that really does sound incredibly relaxing. Coincidentally, before my
first child was born, I was planning to take my bike to Japan and ride/rail
around doing much the same. Hopefully one of these days I'll finally get to do
it. Your description of it makes me want to even more.

------
Tiktaalik
British Columbia's social democratic NDP government quickly stepped in with
their own bus service to serve the north though I'm not sure if it's intended
to be permanent.

[https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/bc-
northern-...](https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/bc-northern-bus-
transit-may-2018-1.4683199)

It could make sense for the government to step in here with a publicly owned
transit service if there is a real market failure here in that it's not at all
profitable to serve the sparsely populated North.

~~~
robertAngst
>It could make sense for the government to step in here with a publicly owned
transit service if there is a real market failure here in that it's not at all
profitable to serve the sparsely populated North.

If its unprofitable, maybe its a bad idea to have unused transportation. While
a few buses seem like negligible damage to the environment, I imagine this
greater plan is to grow these locations that are in unfavorable geographic
locations. Isnt this environmentally irresponsible?

~~~
rtpg
The fire department isn't profitable. Still a good idea to have it. Army's not
profitable. Sidewalks aren't profitable. Don't get me started on libraries...

What's the point of money if we're only going to use it to make more of it?

~~~
Tsubasachan
Living in rural areas isn't a right but a privilege. It is economically and
environmentally inefficient.

Rural areas should be designated for food production and tourism.

------
moltar
Greyhound didn’t innovate. The buses look like they are super old. No wifi.
Exorbitant prices. It’s a terrible experience. Pay a bit more and you can take
a train.

I’ve been on a government bus in Thailand. The seat reclines into almost
laying position, comes with built in massager, video games and stewardess
service. The cost of non-stop 9 hour ride was $20.

~~~
mlevental
this is asinine. firstly what relative purchasing power of 9$ in Thailand vs
Canada? secondly in developing countries the market for bus transport is
enormous because only very wealthy have cars.

~~~
danbolt
Plus I can imagine the population density of Canada makes a large difference,
too.

~~~
rocky1138
Maybe in some cases, but I've taken multiple hours long buses in Taiwan and
multiple hours-long buses here in Canada and price and quality of Canadian
buses is way behind the times; inconvenient, expensive, and slow.

~~~
moltar
And Taiwanese were also able to build a high speed train in mountainous, very
seismicacally active terrain. We can’t seem to figure this out in flatlands.

------
murderfs
I remember reading that Greyhound had a pretty sizable dropoff in ridership
after a passenger was decapitated and cannibalized on one of their buses.
Googling finds this: [https://globalnews.ca/news/4331224/greyhound-bus-
beheading-r...](https://globalnews.ca/news/4331224/greyhound-bus-beheading-
ridership/)

~~~
booleandilemma
_Vince Li, who now goes by the name Will Baker, beheaded and cannibalized a
fellow passenger, 22-year-old Tim McLean, on a Greyhound bus that was bound
for Winnipeg on July 30, 2008.

Li was charged with second-degree murder, but was found not criminally
responsible for his actions. Li is a schizophrenic, but had not been taking
his medication.

He has since received a full discharge from the mental hospital in Selkirk,
Man., where he was being held_

Hmm

~~~
GhostVII
Smart decision to change his name, surprised more criminals don't do that once
they are released.

~~~
phonon
A cannibal changed his name to "Will Bake Her'???

------
bmurray7jhu
In the US, private operators of rural intercity bus service are eligible to
receive operating subsidies under 49 § USC 5311(f). [1] Greyhound has written
a manual for state and local governments that want to apply for a Section
5311(f) grant to fund Greyhound service. [2]

[1] [https://www.transit.dot.gov/funding/grants/formula-grants-
ru...](https://www.transit.dot.gov/funding/grants/formula-grants-rural-areas-
fact-sheet-section-5311)

[2] [http://extranet.greyhound.com/revsup/rfs/rfs-
handbk.pdf](http://extranet.greyhound.com/revsup/rfs/rfs-handbk.pdf)

------
sandworm101
>> Greyhound’s decision to write off much of the Canadian frontier

Frontier? This isn't 1827. If Canada has a frontier it is The North, not
Alberta.

Canada has significant problems when it comes to servicing small rural
communities. Take the 82 year-old "cattle and grain farmer from Langenburg,
Saskatchewan" who lives 11 hours outside Edmonton. Getting him health care is
a huge problem, a much greater issue than him visiting relatives in the city.
Greyhound didn't just disconnect small towns. It disconnected Vancouver form
Kamloops, two large urban areas. It just disconnected Vancouver from
_Whistler_. Those two cities hosted the 2010 winter games. If that link cannot
be made profitable, there is no hope for connecting Langenburg.

(I took the Vancouver-Whistler route many times as a kid. It was horrible.
Four hours in a bus station and then a horrible bus to complete a journey that
could be done in an hour by car. When I turned 16 I bought a car and never
looked back.)

~~~
grawprog
Last time i took the vancouver-whistler route it was an hour and a half - two
hours or so on the bus and like 20 minutes wait at the station on main st.
This was 2 or 3 years ago now.

But oh man were the greyhound staff ever rude and because the first driver on
the way out half tore my return ticket i had to beg the driver in whistler in
let me on the bus with the ticket i had. He was really close to making me go
buy a new ticket even after explaining. There was also only 2 or 3 departure
times both ways.

~~~
felipemnoa
>>But oh man were the greyhound staff ever rude

I personally saw this behavior in greyhound lines, and it wasn't even an
outlier, it seemed to be the modus operandi. I thought it was horrible at the
time and made me never want to ride the bus again. In fact, I avoided it as
best I could.

------
pj_mukh
Can Flix help?[1]. New investment, renewed vigour to innovate. If they can
convert a good percentage of people who would now take their car because
Greyhound's are so uncomfortable, they maybe profitable in these rural routes.

[1] [https://www.cbc.ca/news/business/greyhound-bus-routes-
flixbu...](https://www.cbc.ca/news/business/greyhound-bus-routes-
flixbus-1.4886264)

------
Latteland
It's unclear how much the bus was losing per year per person potentially
served. Also, instead of traveling cross country all the way by bus, why can't
they just keep a feeder pattern to big cities once every few days. That should
save money. The goal should be provide transportation where there isn't
something else, not independently cover the country.

------
jorblumesea
This basically mimics the decline of most rural areas in the US as well as
parts of Europe. Declining services, population and job opportunities, even to
the point where there's a marked difference in life expectancy. Unfortunately
the future of the world seems like it's city based.

~~~
rocky1138
Unfortunate, in your opinion. Personally, I love dense cities and really
dislike suburban and rural living. Everything is so convenient and there is
always something to do that doesn't require driving for 20+ minutes.

~~~
volkl48
I don't think that it needs the qualification. You're looking at it as
either/or.

It's unfortunate that there's a decline in the lifestyle choices that will
offer you opportunities and much of a future.

In the past, the city, the suburbs, and the rural areas were all viable
options for making a good living and being in a healthy community.

------
davidblair
One of the strangest business practices Greyhound has is the $18 Gift Ticket
Fee [1]. Want someone to buy a ticket for you online? That will cost an extra.
Think you can avoid it buy going to the station and buying it in person? Nope,
the fee still applies.

[1] [https://www.greyhound.com/en/help-and-info/ticket-
info/cardh...](https://www.greyhound.com/en/help-and-info/ticket-
info/cardholder-not-traveling)

------
flyGuyOnTheSly
I'm surprised our federal government didn't offer to heavily subsidize the bus
routes.

There really isn't any other way to travel across Canada at a fair price
anymore.

We subsidize almost all forms of transportation, from the tiny GO railway
system in the GTA at $2/ride, to VIA rail's cross-country treks at hundreds of
dollars per ride.

Perhaps the numbers are really that dismal that subsidies didn't even make
sense?

~~~
52-6F-62
> _Perhaps the numbers are really that dismal that subsidies didn 't even make
> sense?_

There's the question!

I also wonder if it isn't a chicken-egg problem. Or maybe I should call it a
_Field of Dreams_ problem (if you build it, they will come).

It would be a boon to living in this country if it were easier to travel
without spending large amounts on flights. I'd certainly see more of it,
myself.

The fact that travel is so expensive or prohibitive can be pretty isolating.
My own family lives but two hours away (in rural ON) and I see some of them
maybe three times a year. My girlfriend's family is in Victoria (BC) and she
sees them more often than that these days...

------
jungletime
I'm Canadian, and I tried taking a greyhound bus from Chicago to Detroit. I
travelled all over the world, and apart from childhood memories of communism,
and my recent visit to India. Never had I seen so much disorganization. The
bus station was totally overcrowded, with confused passengers. The attendants
were screaming into the PA and it was hard to discern which bus line was for
which bus over all the peaking and distortion. So I got in the information
line, so I could know which ticket line to get into, so I could get into the
right line for my bus. So many lines, and its going slow, and I know my bus
will leave in an hour. I'm waiting impatiently, soon I'll be next. What
happened next, was a Kafkaesque moment. I literally saw a guy get escorted out
of the "Information" line for asking a benign question, one too many times.
There was a cop already there outside, seemingly ready for such moments. And
promptly put cuffs on the guy. When I asked if I could still catch my bus, I
was told "I was bamboozled", and laughed at. I was confused, not wanting to
argue, I stepped out of the line. Bathroom smelled of urine and vomit. It was
mostly poor black people at that Greyhound station, being treated terribly by
other black people.

I missed my bus, and ended up booking a Megabus, 6 hours later. It was a 5
hour trip, my lower back took a beating sitting over a wheel well. Never
again.

If you're rich and want to check your privilege, and have a lower class,
"Coming to America", kind of experience. Try taking a Greyhound Bus in
Chicago. Highly recommend it for that purpose.

~~~
umichguy
Always take the Amtrak train between Chicago and Detroit - so much nicer and
easier. In my opinion, better than a car on a long weekend when the roads are
jammed.

------
mathattack
I used to take Grayhound to college. I have much less nostalgia. I remember
them as long rides in very smelly buses, that usually had a start or stop is a
very seedy neighborhood.

------
ajcodez
I think the GO train in Ontario and MegaBus between cities may have taken a
lot of the better routes from Greyhound too.

------
dev_dull
> _Some analysts see it as yet another indicator that rural Canada is not only
> struggling, but slowly decoupling from the country’s thriving urban cores._

Sad story heard in a lot of towns around the US as well. What can a town do
when all manufacturing/blue collar work was offshored a decade ago? And people
think Russian Facebook ads are what propelled Trump to the whitehouse.

~~~
mschuster91
> And people think Russian Facebook ads are what propelled Trump to the
> whitehouse.

It's not just "legal" ads that helped Trump. The bigger problem was the
Russian propaganda and lies that (still) get spread virally over Facebook.

------
themodelplumber
Does The Guardian have any kind of political agenda in writing articles of
this kind? For example, "encourage left-leaning folks to remain on the island
instead of brexiting over to Canada" or something like that. I don't have a
dog in the fight; was just curious given how much nation-on-nation journalism
(even in the commonwealth) is political or agenda-motivated nowadays.

~~~
icebraining
I mean, I can't say I know, but what about this particular article raises that
question? They write about issues from all over the world[1], this doesn't
seem any different. Plus I doubt most "brexit refugees" were planning on
eloping to isolated regions of Canada.

[1] [https://www.theguardian.com/world](https://www.theguardian.com/world)

~~~
gerdesj
Plus I doubt most "brexit refugees" were planning on eloping to isolated
regions of Canada

You'd be surprised how appealing BC looks to some of us here. Mind you, it
(BC) looks bloody gorgeous all the time but as you say Brexit has nothing to
do with the big country.

------
nn3
So is population dropping? Or just ridership? Or did Greyhound suddenly have
higher costs? None of that is answered in the article, unless I missed it.

<speculation:>

I assume operating such a bus line is not all that expensive, and costs
shouldn't have been rising because fuel is still cheap.

So ridership must have been dropping.

So apparently they didn't need it all that much, otherwise enough people would
have continued riding so that it would have stayed profitable.

That's the morale I guess: if you value something use it more often.

~~~
wcarss
Thanks for not understanding the problem and making a trite snipe at the rural
people of Canada.

People who live in these places do absolutely use these buses, and some people
do need them, but (while I'm not sure about service cost) the prices go up
regularly, many buses are packed, slow, and chronically late, and the
population is in fact falling dramatically in rural Canada as the elderly move
to care homes in the cities where their children already live -- it's not
necessarily about choice, but about demographic and geographic change over
decades.

If there is a moral here it is not "use it or lose it". Perhaps instead it is
merely that we won't be able to rely on even the services we feel are
essential, as the world changes around us over time.

~~~
nn3
If they are packed how can they be losing money?

Perhaps I'm wrong but its clear you are not right either.

~~~
WaylonKenning
One packed bus does not make a service, if it's unreliable. And over those
distances, they may not be profitable at the ticket prices they charge. And
they may not be commercially viable if the ticket has to recoup all the costs
+ profit.

That's why, sometimes governments operate services, even at a loss, as a
benefit, to their citizens.

