
I’m bailing on San Francisco - Oculus
http://words.steveklabnik.com/sf
======
YuriNiyazov
The author works all the time, and thinks that by moving to New York, of all
places, he will achieve a greater work-life balance. Having lived in both
places and having struggles with the same issues: the work-life balance in
both places is heavily skewed towards work, and in those places, that balance
is heavily dependent on the person's ability to say "no" and to stand up for
oneself. If the author had said "I am moving to a sleepy suburb in the
midwest", then I'd say he's making a good choice that will require very few
changes in his own ability to manage his life: the environment would impose.
As is, he's just switching one high-pressure area for another.

Edit: apparently work/life balance isn't the issue, as the essay and comments
here clarified. Very well.

~~~
patrickyeon
Except he says specifically that working too much is not the problem:

 _I don’t go home late. I go home at five. It’s not work /life balance that’s
the issue. I’m just not psyched for the ‘life’ part._

~~~
steveklabnik
To be fair to your parent, I edited that in a few minutes ago because people
read the previous sentence differently than I meant it. I didn't know people
would assume I was burning the candle from both ends.

------
steveklabnik
Hey all,

I mean, I already wrote the post, but what I will say is that I've spent a ton
of time in New York, and I know exactly what I'm getting into. For example,
the bustling environment will actually _invigorate_, not drain, me, because
that's the kind of place I enjoy. I'll also be saving money on rent, get to
enjoy the wonderful subway, and a whole host of other things.

There's also quite a lot of value in _being_ in San Francisco. If I was going
to start a company, I wouldn't bother with anywhere else. But I'm not starting
a company. So it's not for me. This post isn't titled "You should bail on San
Francisco."

~~~
notlisted
Hope you find in Brooklyn what you need/desire. It's become a place for young,
single people, not families. We left NYC last year after 16+ years (the last
12 spent in BK) and crossed the water.

I resisted a move for many years because of the energy you cite, which I
considered my lifeblood, but I've never felt better now that I'm surrounded by
trees again. NYC (BK) really sucked the life out of me (and my wallet) and I
didn't notice until I made my escape.

BK real estate has become unaffordable and the buying process is atrocious
(expect to fall in love with an apt. multiple times only to be outbid by cash
offers). BK rents are going through the roof. Despite what my friends who
still live there assume, I don't miss it _at all_.

~~~
steveklabnik
> It's become a place for young, single people, not families.

Sounds excellent. :) And as bad as BK rents are, SF rents are worse.
Regardless, I'm glad you've found a place that works for you. I grew up on a
beef cattle farm, and I know I need huge cities.

------
gkoberger
For those of you disappointed by this article and want a great article about
leaving SF, try this:

[http://needwant.com/p/im-moving-san-francisco-st-
louis/](http://needwant.com/p/im-moving-san-francisco-st-louis/)

~~~
ihaveqvestion
I hadn't previously read a description of St Louis quite like that - he makes
it sound very appealing. Does anyone else have personal experience with living
in St Louis?

~~~
rrouse
I live in St. Louis.

We have a growing tech scene. Some of my friends refer to St. Louis's tech as
the "Silicon Ghetto" as it's not quite as expansive as SF. More businesses are
moving and starting up here because of Arch Grants and one of the co-founders
of Square has a startup accelerator here as well.

Granted, I don't work for a company in St. Louis. I actually work remotely for
a company based out of San Fran.

------
cwilson
My girlfriend and I (both in tech) have also left San Francisco as of last
month, but for slightly different (but related) reasons. The 75,000 mentioned
people who have moved to the bay area for tech have caused rent to rise by
such a large amount, that even though we can afford to pay, it feels like a
huge waste of our money. We could be spending it doing other things or just
saving for our future.

Instead we'll continue to work in tech doing consulting work, but we're going
try our hand at being completely nomadic while doing it (starting with Central
and South America, though we'll be picking a place and staying there for a few
weeks to a month at minimum). We've sold pretty much everything we own and
have whittled down our belongings to a large backpack and daypack each. It
feels pretty amazing to be this lightweight and mobile, and our current budget
has spending about 3x less than we were while living in SF (and still living
very well).

~~~
jseliger
_The 75,000 mentioned people who have moved to the bay area for tech have
caused rent to rise by such a large amount, that even though we can afford to
pay, it feels like a huge waste of our money_

This is also primarily a political problem, as I wrote previously here:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7382097](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7382097)
and as Kim-Mai Cutler cogently described here:
[http://techcrunch.com/2014/04/14/sf-
housing/](http://techcrunch.com/2014/04/14/sf-housing/) .

Seattle has somewhat similar problems
([http://www.smartgrowthseattle.org/sally-bagshaw-yesterday-
to...](http://www.smartgrowthseattle.org/sally-bagshaw-yesterday-tomorrow/)),
but they're not nearly as bad.

~~~
cwilson
Agreed, both great pieces on the problems in SF at the moment, and I
definitely didn't mean to discount those details as part of our reasoning for
leaving. I love San Francisco and really all of Northern California, but we're
getting out of dodge before things get really out of hand. I do hope to be
able to return some day.

------
jnks
"Grass is greener" isn't a cliche for nothing. Seems like the author is making
a classic mistake assuming different will be better. The main argument here
seems that he enjoys taking vacations in NYC, not that there's anything there
that will improve his daily life.

~~~
delackner
That is a lazy retort to make against someone who has listed specific
grievances with a specific place.

If you are thinking of moving someplace different but cannot think of anything
specific wrong with the current place, yes that is a classic grass is greener
mistake.

But having lived in several places, each one has drastically different
positive and negative attributes, as with any relationship. You wouldn't tell
someone to stick with a partner who was beligerent when any number of other
people could easily fit the bill, but somehow people talk as if a cty is
totally interchangeable with another. That may be true with some specific
options that share the same negative and positive qualities. It is not
generally true.

------
digita88
I know what it's like to move out of a 'vortex', sometimes you just have to do
it.

Don't listen to the naysayers! Good luck and do whatever it takes to get the
SF FOMO out of the system.

------
deadfall
I know a handful of developers that moved to New York. Seems to me that New
York is where the developers go when they are tired of SF. I am thinking
Denver or Chattanooga, where I could actually afford to buy a house and a
yard.

Edit: I have been in SF for 3 and a half years. It was only suppose to be 2
years to get my career started. I feel the black hole pulling and next thing I
know it will be 10 years.

------
danjaouen
Living outside of the Bay Area has consequences as well. For example, I'm an
out-of-work developer currently living outside of SF, and I can therefore only
really apply to positions that allow for remote work (which are much rarer
than HN would have you believe).

------
rdl
I hate San Francisco (and NYC and DC, and to a somewhat lesser extent, the
non-SF SFBA cities). Unfortunately, it really is the best place for tech
company employment, at least in a 15-500 person company. You need to have
enough companies in a given area to make it possible to switch jobs without
relocating, and I just don't see that anywhere else (NYC for non-core-tech
tech-using companies, and DC for gov contracting).

Peninsula is losing out to SF itself for a lot of companies, too.

For a startup, having service providers in an area is important, but investors
are more important, and remain reluctant to do anything remote to themselves.

~~~
michaelochurch
_I hate San Francisco (and NYC and DC, and to a somewhat lesser extent, the
non-SF SFBA cities)._

What places do you like?

~~~
rdl
First choice: HK or Singapore.

Within the Bay Area: Santa Clara, Mountain View, Palo Alto, Menlo Park,
Atherton, Woodside, Los Altos, Cupertino, and most of San Mateo County
overall.

Otherwise: Seattle, Berlin, non-Berlin Germany, Portland (OR), Montreal, sort
of Toronto, Amsterdam, .... Probably Texas, but I've never actually been
there.

For some period of time 1-4y: Japan, Qatar, China, Indonesia, Las Vegas, Utah,
Montana, ND/SD, etc.

In the Northeast, NH or VT.

Most of these don't really have enough diversity of tech companies to be
viable for me, or a good enough ecosystem to start companies. (SV excepted;
Seattle is borderline. HK/SIN don't do much in the kind of companies I like)

~~~
nemasu
Japan (Tokyo) is amazing, highly recommended. Can be a little tricky getting a
software job with little or no Japanese though.

~~~
delackner
If you are interested drop me a line. We are looking for smart people

------
joelrunyon
I was expecting it to be about getting outside the echo chamber of the valley,
but it sounds like he just needed a change of pace.

~~~
steveklabnik
Getting out of the echo chamber is _definitely_ part of it.

~~~
michaelochurch
What do you think about Seattle, Austin, Boulder?

I lived in New York for 7 years. It's a really hard place to live. It gives a
lot, and the benefits are immense, but the cramped living spaces, crowds, and
fast pace are difficult. (For some, the climate's also hard. I got "Building
SAD" when I lived downtown, but other than that, the climate wasn't an issue.)
Of course, no one can predict how you'll react to it. My guess is that you'll
probably find NYC challenging but enjoy what it has to offer (much more than
SF; it's a real fucking city, not some colony for East Coast
banking/consulting rejects turned VCs and the 25-year-old nerds they boss
around). It's worth trying out, for sure. But I wouldn't expect it to be an
_easy_ place to live.

~~~
steveklabnik
I have never visited Seattle. I've spent probably a few weeks total in Austin
and a month or two in Boulder, and I like Austin, but it's damn hot. One of
the reasons I quit my _last_ job is that I would have had to live in Denver,
and I didn't want to. I don't think Denver/Boulder is bad, I just don't think
it's great either. I wouldn't complain about living there, but given the
choice, would pick other places.

I've spent a lot of time in NYC, so I know what I'm getting into. It's fun to
watch all these people make assumptions about my opinions and what they're
based on.

~~~
Serow225
What about Boston?

~~~
michaelochurch
Boston is a beautiful town and has a really nice climate (summers 5 degrees
colder than New York, possibly the best fall foliage in the world).
Unfortunately, there seems to be a lack of progressivism in Boston companies.
The _people_ I like, and the brainpower in that city is immense. On the other
hand, I've interviewed with 4 or 5 Boston companies in my life, known people
who work there, and the set of people who've made it into management or
founding roles and making decisions seems... stodgy, conservative, prone to
create regimented, closed-allocation, uninspiring companies.

New England is unbeatable, though, except possibly in comparison to the
Pacific Northwest.

~~~
rdl
I went to school in Boston and would basically hate being in Boston if not
directly attached to a university. NY has big positives and big negatives;
nowhere else in New England has super strong positives, but a lot of them have
less serious negatives. People obviously have vastly different preferences and
weightings even for factors where they agree directionally.

~~~
Serow225
What were the negatives for you?

------
matt__rose
SF can suck you in, but there are loads of people in SF that have nothing to
do with Tech at all. When I lived there my friends included a guy who worked
on the Bay Bridge, a Hotel Manager, a financial advisor, a set designer, and a
couple of musicians. The only tech people I talked to were at work. Those
people are easy to find if you look.

------
mkrecny
Why did this post disappear from the front page?

~~~
dang
A moderator tagged it as unsubstantive.

------
kumarm
Some of the Pages on the author's domain are blocked on Chrome (Chrome
Detected Malware).

Be careful if you are not using a secure browser.

~~~
steveklabnik
Weird. Can you tell me which ones? That seems unusual.

------
piratebroadcast
This thread is hilarious. People insulting Steve for wanting to leave SF and
yet every other article TODAY on the FRONT PAGE is "Why is SF public transit
so shitty?" or "Why is SF so expensive?" Get out of here.

------
AceJohnny2
> So, at the end of the month, I’m leaving Balanced and the city. I’ll be
> arriving in Brooklyn [...]

> Every hour I spend in New York, I feel excited, and every hour I spend in
> San Francisco, I feel drained.

To each his own, and from the looks of the comments here, he seems to be in
the minority.

~~~
coldtea
Most majorities started as minorities too, so that doesn't say much.

------
nutjob2
Seeya! How is it SF's fault that you can't take a break?

Instead of changing things, you whine then leave. Yeah! That'll change the "SF
work culture"!

Personally, I just went outside for the first time in two or three weeks.
There are just more interesting things inside than out. I everything I need
delivered or transmitted over the internet, including friends.

~~~
knowtheory
And clearly your life will never change and you are certain to always feel
like this.

As a post script: it's also worth noting that this was merely a bulletin that
Steve was departing, not a manifesto about work-life balance (which you'll
note is not the reason he's citing for leaving SF).

