
Viewpoint: 'I feel like I was accidentally hired' - zeristor
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-53180073
======
o-__-o
All of these comments and I’m left wondering if I’m the only black person
commenting in this thread.

I’ve been passed up for promotions, fired, and hired based solely on my color.
I keep moving on but y’all it’s been 20 years of this. And it just started
getting a little better in the past 3 years but is a total gamble based on
where you work.

In my current Fortune 500 job, I was hired for my expertise then was moved to
a new team where my expertise didn’t even matter. Every issue that came up
that I had qualifications for I was passed over for a lesser skilled White
man. I’m used to this but this was my shot at moving up with a big company
name behind me and it was ruined for what I can only wonder if it was an
unconscious bias. Now I don’t care and I’m doing just enough and it seems as
though I’m not going to get fired because it will look bad on paper. Yes I’m
projecting, one could say don’t give up and you could have another chance..
and that exact situation presented itself but really..... I don’t care
anymore. I’ve made my 20 years of industry money why am I still fighting
against a system that is obviously unfair to me. I’ll let the next generation
try and when they fail I will welcome them into my business with open arms.

So here is my advice to all minorities, poc, women, etc disenfranchised
groups: focus on yourself, stay with a good team/company when you do find one,
stay connected to the community, and above all help help help your fellow
struggling humans. We are all in this together and one day you will be helming
your own company (this is hacker news right?) that matters with the people you
met and mentored along the way.

Edit: Just in case it’s not obvious I’m a millennial and I had a wonderful
early childhood start to my career that other black men and women don’t get
the luxury to have. So it’s not like I’m an old man in my 50s, I’m the same
age as a lot of folks here and have worked on the same systems that a lot of
older folks have built... but my resume is probably littered with lower roles
than those that you’ve held. Now if you’ll excuse me I’m going to burn this
throwaway to continue hiding my skin color on the internet

~~~
forgot_user1234
> I’ve been passed up for promotions, fired, and hired based solely on my
> color

"solely". It's easy to pin point a problem on others.

This might come in handy -
[https://twitter.com/shreyas/status/1276956836856393728?s=20](https://twitter.com/shreyas/status/1276956836856393728?s=20)

~~~
dang
It's also easy to be dismissive on the internet. Please don't do that here.

[https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html](https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html)

~~~
forgot_user1234
Disclaimer - english is not my first language

Hey dang,

I am curious. what could I have done better?

if OP said he is suffering "solely" because of his colour and I think, its
borderline impossible to pin point a result of large complex system on any one
thing?

P.S. - do people flag my comments or did you just see it on your own.

~~~
dang
People in the GP's situation often encounter responses like "it's easy to pin
point a problem on others" or other logical-sounding objections that come
across as dismissive of the specific experiences that they're reporting. If
you do that in the way you did it, complete with a Twitter link about how to
become a 'high-agency' person, other people will interpret you as saying
'that's not happening' and 'you should just try harder', i.e. as telling them
that they're wrong in the description of their own experience and ultimately
as denying that race has been a factor in it. Do you see how that could come
across as dismissive?

It's possible that you were misled by the word 'solely', since your objection
seemed to be sort of a technical one based on the literal meaning of that
word. Since you say you're a non-native English speaker, I can see how that
could happen. It's clear from the GP's reply to you that they didn't mean that
word literally. When it comes to an issue as complex and as emotional as this,
it's usually best not to react to just one word, but rather to suss out the
comment as a whole. That goes for native speakers too.

One thing that might have been better is to ask clarifying questions rather
than making objections. If you ask an open-ended question in a heartfelt way,
it might invite the other person to expand on his or her experience more, in a
way that both helps you understand and makes them feel like someone is
listening. It's tricky, though. This topic is so fraught that it's easy for a
question to sound like a counterargument, and the discourse has unfortunately
been polluted by a lot of questions which are not questions at all, but
attempts to undermine. So if you do ask such a question, make it clear (as
best you can) that you mean it sincerely.

It makes me wonder if we could build tools to help craft the conversation
differently, but that's another topic.

(No one flagged your comment above; I just happened to see it in the thread.)

~~~
forgot_user1234
Hey Dang, that was really helpful! Thanks!

> It's possible that you were misled by the word 'solely'

Yeah, I don't think I fully understand the premise.

> Do you see how that could come across as dismissive?

I can see that but it's really hard to convey something contrary to popular
belief.

Let's say I want to say something like "it's easy to be a victim rather than
to take action and make change" I truly believe that and I really think it
will help people to take actions rather than just being stagnant. I don't want
to be dismissive. How can I say it?

> better is to ask clarifying questions rather than making objections

I somewhat agree. But, it's hard to discuss without counter arguments.

------
ibudiallo
Hey everyone, author here. It seems like this post have been flagged, but I'd
like to add a little comment here so it may clarify things.

First, a little over a week ago we were having a similar discussion here [1]
and I promised I'd post my article about it. This is the article.

Second, I want people to understand that this is a complex issue and the
solution might/should be as complex. It's not a case of, OK let's hire 20 more
black people and it's over. The reality is that, well first you have to find
them, and then you have to see if they qualify for a job you are actually
hiring for.

But one thing that anyone one here can do is get up from their chair and look
around the office, you immediately notice that black people aren't there. This
is what this article is doing. It's asking why?

Every anecdote I brought up about treatment is something that happened to me
on multiple occasions. Now I'm getting hundreds of emails with people saying
"you pulled the words out of my mouth." And some examples sound innocent
enough and could be interpreted in many ways. But like Joel Spolsky once said,
"it's the tiny little frustration that add up"[2] and at some point you are
angry and don't even know why.

This is a call to be more understanding and for all of us to be aware of the
challenges black people face. I don't have a solution to end racism, and I
don't pretend I do. But when we all understand each other a little better,
racism tend to start fading away.

[1]:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23544856](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23544856)
[2]: [https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2000/04/10/controlling-
your-e...](https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2000/04/10/controlling-your-
environment-makes-you-happy/)

Edit: typo and my mistake, this post is not flagged as of writing.

~~~
numakerg
Thank you for writing this. If there's at least one thing I hope everyone can
agree is a positive, it's people sharing their perspectives like this.

> look around the office, you immediately notice that black people aren't
> there.

You're right, there aren't. One in ten people in my city is black, but I would
estimate* fewer than one in forty developers at my work are. But there were
just as few in my college classes, in my tech clubs, advanced mathematics
classes, and any other place that would lead a person to software development.
I think we need to address the problems with diversity in those place at the
same time as we deal with the workplace problems.

* All the obvious caveats apply. I'm not going to project an identity onto someone else.

~~~
komali2
It's not exclusionary.

I have almost no say at what happens at my local University. Do you? I can at
most pay taxes, write my representatives, and maybe a couple other ancillary
things.

What I _can_ control to a huge degree is who my company hires and how I treat
my colleagues.

Seeking out how to help POC programmers in the workforce doesn't mean we can't
also work to improve the American education gap. We have a lot of time in the
day, after all.

~~~
numakerg
In what part of my writing did I suggest that it was exclusionary?

> It's not a case of, OK let's hire 20 more black people and it's over. The
> reality is that, well first you have to find them, and then you have to see
> if they qualify for a job you are actually hiring for.

I was addressing this statement from the author, suggesting that if my
perception of the education system is accurate then it could be difficult to
find those developers if barriers at school aren't also broken. Maybe my
perception is wrong, but that's why we have discussions.

> I have almost no say at what happens at my local University. Do you?

I do. I am an alumni and can contribute to scholarships that fund students in
underrepresented categories. As a student, I published articles supporting my
(what I would consider progressive) political positions that opened up
discussions but also received significant criticism.

> Seeking out how to help POC programmers in the workforce doesn't mean we
> can't also work to improve the American education gap. We have a lot of time
> in the day, after all.

Hopefully. I'm not American, so I can't say much. Best I can do is listen and
think about what I do and say.

------
scarface74
Again, for context, I’m Black and I’ve been in the industry for 25 years. I
have never experienced what the author experienced.

Maybe it’s because I’ve worked in Atlanta all of my career where companies are
use to seeing Black professionals?

It could be that I’ve spent all of my career in the staid enterprise
development space instead of Big Tech? Whatever it is, I can’t ignore
statistics because of the anecdotal experience of myself and my friends in
tech.

 _However, I have a 0% success rate with video interviews._

My only video interviews were the ones I had with AWS. It was a success.
Again, I’m not going to discount his truth.

~~~
treis
>Again, for context, I’m Black and I’ve been in the industry for 25 years. I
have never experienced what the author experienced.

>Maybe it’s because I’ve worked in Atlanta all of my career where companies
are use to seeing Black professionals?

It's not just you. I'm not black but, am from Atlanta, and maybe that's the
common link but this just seems like it's from a different planet. It's just
hard for me to grok things like this:

>I've been to job interviews where the receptionist will take me to a
whiteboard room. When the interviewer comes in, he'd say: "I'm sorry, you must
be in the wrong room."

>But the day I come to the office in person, they are taken aback. I often
get: "I couldn't tell where you are from on the phone."

Who are these people that are surprised that a guy named Ibrahim is black?

~~~
darkerside
My guess is the accent was throwing people to the point it seemed like a "bait
and switch".

------
stygiansonic
The other story about this fellow where his contract was accidentally
terminated or not renewed (linked to from this article) is just about as
Kafkaesque as you can get:

[https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-44561838](https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-44561838)

------
rootusrootus
This seems like such a hard problem to really solve, since so much of what we
consider racism, or at least borderline racism, has a significant basis in
fundamental human thinking. I really feel for the guy, but it's hard to know
where to start.

I try really hard to ignore color, but I'm not immune to at least _noticing_.
Then I try hard not to double-take. It's completely expected to meet Indians
at the workplace, but black people are so rare that it always feels like a
surprise. Maybe there's a bit of a chicken-and-egg problem in play.

I recall that when I was in the military, I got so used to the racial make-up,
which has a _lot_ more representation from black people than my hometown, that
it wouldn't register at all. Just another guy. When it _really_ hit home was
after I'd been back in Oregon for a few months after I left the service, when
I was walking across the college campus and noticed a small group of black
students walking towards me. I noticed them, and then I realized that I had
just _noticed_ them, as if they were noteworthy. That was the moment I
realized how white Oregon [mostly] is. I didn't feel negativity towards them,
but I felt uncomfortable that it was something that even came to mind.

In any case, we have two black guys on our team. Both really nice, but very
different people. One of them acts like he was raised locally in a wealthy
family, he's very laid back and doesn't seem to feel out of place. The other
guy is a little older, and if you didn't know better you'd think he was a
little hostile. No, he's wary. He acts like he's faced judgement his entire
life and he's always waiting for the other shoe to drop.

Easy to be comfortable around the first guy, much harder around the second
guy. I want to act like it's not even anything to be aware of, but that in
itself seems pretty dishonest. People are different, and that's totally okay.
Good in fact, since they bring their own unique perspective to the daily
problems we are asked to solve.

~~~
joshribakoff
> I try really hard to ignore color

One thing I was taught in anti-bias trainings at big tech companies was that
trying to "ignore" color helps perpetuate biases. It is important that if an
under represented co-worker speaks up, you pay extra attention, explicitly
ensure their idea is credited to them, be vocal when you agree even if you
otherwise would not, help others to understand their contributions, etc.
Biases will never go away, we all have negative thoughts pop into our head,
you cannot "ignore race", but we can all take steps to improve things.

~~~
octaveguin
Isn't that horribly patronizing?

I'd feel offended if someone treated me with kid gloves based on my skin
color.

~~~
toochini
[https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=gFP4dJHJXoI](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=gFP4dJHJXoI)

Couldn’t find the whole thing, but I agree it seems constantly talking about
race leads to more racism and not less. Seems so opposed to the civil right
movement stance against segregation.

~~~
komali2
"constantly talking about race leads to more racism not less" Isn't an
effective argument against diversity and inclusion efforts.

Racism is real and POC Americans (to scope the discussion) are experiencing
it. Maybe Morgan Freeman has the perspective that pretending it's not real
will make it go away, but that doesn't change the fact that black programmers
are underrepresented, or that police forces are staffed with avowed racists,
or that... Etc.

------
austincheney
I have frequently heard stories like these but find them odd. Perhaps these
are scenarios that occur more frequently at smaller companies. Most of my
professional corporate experience has been at large companies. As an example
people of Indian and Middle East decent make up less than 1% of the US
population but if I had to guess the percentage of my developer coworkers from
Indian or Middle East decent it would be at least 40%.

At larger companies like I have been at there are all kinds of foreign accents
and nobody makes a thing of it. Nobody tries to guess where people are from. I
only discovered one of my coworkers is of Kuwaiti decent after disclosing that
I am temporarily relocating to Kuwait (I thought was Greek but was not curious
enough to bring it up).

Honestly I don’t think I would want to work at place that allowed such
exclusive habits about my coworkers which make these stories all the more
strange to me.

------
jcims
>Black people make up 13% of the US population, we are naturally in the
minority. But in the tech workforce, we are missing. Among the top eight
largest tech companies in the land, black people account for only 3.1% of the
workforce

Just raw extrapolation, this would indicate that (13-3.1)/13 or 76% of black
folks in technology are either unemployed or not working in tech. Is that the
case?

If it is, then laying this problem at the feet of employers and the systems
involved with hiring and retention seems fair.

If not, then there might be more work to be done to develop interest in the
industry in the young and displaced folks that are looking for a career path
_IN ADDITION_ to continuing to ensure that the hiring and retention results in
industry are reasonable given the pool of folks that are interested in the
work.

~~~
Edmond
Not sure where the author got his numbers from but if you read the full
article, the author notes that the numbers/percentages themselves can be
misleading, because that 3.1% could include the security guard who swipes your
badge or some other peripheral role at a technology company.

It is also true that Blacks do in fact quit the industry at high rates due to
bias treatment; based on the number of computer science and technology degrees
granted to blacks, their representation should be higher if there was higher
retention.

It is also the case that blacks in technology often end in up in specific
sectors of the industry, for instance you'll find much higher black
representation in the public sector, specifically in the federal
government...unfortunately that is not likely to be the source of the next
great tech innovator.

~~~
foogazi
> for instance you'll find much higher black representation in the public
> sector, specifically in the federal government

Do you know why that is? Maybe government work is more inclusive, like the
military

~~~
Baeocystin
Accessible job stability and good benefits. The overall pay is lower than the
private sector, but if you're looking for stable income first and foremost,
working for the government is an excellent option. This stability will be
particularly appealing for people who grew up in poverty.

Source: My father worked for the government, and my grandfather was a working-
class immigrant who started with nothing, so money was tight.

~~~
bryan_w
Can confirm, I'm black, and growing up I would often hear my parents and aunts
often say that the government jobs were the best because it was stable

~~~
foogazi
Good point- I have seen that thrown around as a reason to enlist in the
military (family benefits) or defense contractors (job security for 20 years!)

------
cal5k
This is a bit of an aside, but...

What I think is getting obscured in all of the overheated rhetoric about race
is the fact that all humans want a tribe. We want to feel like we belong to
something greater than ourselves.

I'm Canadian, but I can imagine if I were to move to France to learn French it
would be similar. Many people would be welcoming, but some might be impatient
with my shitty French and say/do rude things. I'd probably end up affiliating
with other Anglophones because we'd all be going through the same journey.

Expecting people to completely suppress this tendency towards in-group
affiliation seems, frankly, unscientific. Most of the popular proposals aimed
at "eliminating racism" seem likely to fail, or even backfire, because they
treat racism like it's something evil people do rather than a byproduct of our
tendency to connect more easily to people like us.

~~~
andreygrehov
Here is an interesting observation. If we take a look at how different nations
are distributed across big cities, we can see that many neighborhoods are race
specific. A lot of cities have chinese, jewish, russian, mexican, etc.
neighborhoods, meaning that people _naturally_ want to live with _similar_
people. What's more important, it happens organically. It's not like some
organization or government forces people to move there. There are no
incentives, no financial benefits. Nothing. People are free to live anywhere
they want, but they still create those communities and prefer to live among
their own kind. From this specific observation, it seems like racism is more
like a biological thing, the product of evolution.

~~~
davidgay
> _naturally_ want to live with _similar_ people

You are forgetting that those kinds of neighborhoods have developed in part
because other people have taken mild-to-extreme steps to prevent "those"
people from living with them.

Known steps in the US include at the very least: \- rules preventing "those"
people from living in some places \- mild-to-extreme actions against "those"
people when they move in \- people leaving when too many of "those" people
move in

I.e., "People are free to live anywhere they want" is completely wrong, even
in living memory.

~~~
zosima
So all of these groups choose to live in separate neighborhoods, because they
all are racist to each other?

Not because they want to be around people that are similar to themselves?

And the fact that the same pattern shows up basically everywhere. In Africa,
Asia, Europe, North America and to some extent South America, does not change
your perception?

~~~
komali2
> So all of these groups choose to live in separate neighborhoods, because
> they all are racist to each other?

No, because the empowered class artificially created ghettos, and either
forced racial separation directly or indirectly by removing access to societal
resources, forcing communities to form to compensate. Of course Cuban refugees
will form Spanish speaking communities in a hostile Florida - everything is in
English (which they're still learning), many local whites don't want them
there and sometimes make that very apparent, and the community is already
filled with people with the same background that "made it work," so can offer
useful advice and resources.

This doesn't change anything about diversity bringing power, when one can
overcome societal biases and racism.

~~~
zosima
Pray, tell. Why would these repressed Cubans not live together with hispanics,
in hispanic ghettos. Speaking the same language and all.

After all, that would make them a stronger force, and definitely give them
more diversity.

~~~
komali2
They... Do...? That's why an empowerment movement might focus on Latinx in
general, and as you go more local you might find some of the same people at
the state Latinx rally as you do at a city's Cuban American resource exchange
group or whatever.

The point is that self-sorting doesn't by definition mean that humans are
inherently racist or that it's natural/ethical to oppress minority
populations, which I take as one of the many bad taste implications from this
thread.

~~~
zosima
I don't see anybody except you conflate natural and ethical.

So the cubans now live side by side with mexicans? And both they and
mexicans/south americans self-identify as hispanics/latinx and not cubans,
mexicans or something else?

And having a Cuban American cultural exchange is just an oddity of history?
And is now more the latinx american cultural exchange?

~~~
komali2
The thread is being lost - what exactly is the point you're trying to make?

~~~
zosima
That self-selection for living and organizing with kindred is something that
also happens in the absence of extreme power disparity.

~~~
komali2
You've failed to provide evidence. All the examples we're discussing involve
extreme power disparity.

That also doesn't necessarily mean that diversity = bad. It's easier to stay
at home and watch Netflix than it is to travel to a foreign country and
experience their culture, yet every time I do the latter, no matter how
uncomfortable the trip can make me at times, I always come back grateful I did
the trip, and imo a far better person.

------
jokethrowaway
I'm half black. I think my story started pretty bad but become much better so
sharing hoping someone else may feel more hopeful.

I grew up in a south european racist country and I had some fun times. Nothing
serious, kids making fun of me, cops stopping me to check if I was dealing
drugs, if I had a passport or a knife. I started working when I was 14 as a
developer online, mainly because I wanted to get out of there and stop being
surrounded by idiots. That country was terrible for jobs anyway and by 16 I
was getting a decent pay for the country, just by making a few ad supported
website and by freelancing with the rest of the world. At 22, after getting my
dose of almost free university, I ran to London, where I never experienced any
form of racism. I raised some money for my startup (which failed) without
particular problems and after that I started contracting. Given my provable
experience, I got senior level jobs pretty much immediately and got a nice pay
for Europe at 23-24 (90k+£) which increased and become a remote half eng half
manager job in the following years. All those racist kids back in my home
country are still stuck in jobs paying less than a barista in the UK.

It doesn't matter what other people think. Your perceived "race" doesn't
matter, it's just one of the characteristics that define you and some people
will react positively and give you free scholarships or quota jobs. Some
people will react negatively and think you're a criminal, some won't give you
a job. That's life. Probably something similar happens to you because of your
height, because you're attractive / ugly, because of your gender, because you
dress well / bad. If you were to think of all the possible positive and
negative characteristics that influence how someone is perceived, you could
partition people in so many different groups, you wouldn't even know who you
should "positively discriminate" which means negatively discriminate everyone
else. But there are so many other things you can do to improve yourself and
compensate with words and skills whatever bias may someone else hold.

I had some insecurities linked to my skin color and to some physical defects
but, as part of training to become a better leader, I learned to embrace them
and to use them to to surround yourself with people who can be positive for
you.

I don't like how this issue has been politicised recently and I think it
reflects incredibly poorly on us. One of the stigma I have to fight is that of
scaring someone if we're walking in the same street at night. I hope the
situation will not get worse and that we won't raise a generation of kids that
think that black people = violent riots to steal tv and get money.

------
tobyhinloopen
Now that I think about it: I’ve met more female programmers than black ones.

And I might have met maybe 2 female programmers, and 0 black programmers.

Weird.

Now imagine being a 50 year old black female programmer and getting hired.

Anyway I’d welcome colleagues of any color and gender.

~~~
wrycoder
“Now imagine being a 50 year old black female programmer and getting hired.“

If one showed up, you know very well she’d be hired. At least, that’s my
impression of what would happen at a large company.

“Anyway I’d welcome colleagues of any color and gender.”

Yes.

------
anonytrary
> Black people make up 13% of the US population, we are naturally in the
> minority. But in the tech workforce, we are missing. Among the top eight
> largest tech companies in the land, black people account for only 3.1% of
> the workforce.

I think the right metric to look at is the "percentage of black people who
have the necessary degrees or equivalent qualifications". You can't blame
companies for the problem if the disproportionality is introduced in the
education funnel. In that case, the question that needs to be asked is "why
are black people less likely to go into STEM"?

~~~
UncleMeat
Do you know what school graduates more black cs graduates than any other.
Georgia tech.

How many major tech companies have serious hubs in Atlanta? Some of them, but
certainly not all.

People don’t like to move. A nontrivial amount of the pipeline problem can be
addressed by opening offices in the southeast.

~~~
anonytrary
If the best talent or opportunity isn't in the southeast, then companies won't
go there, so I think it's not as simple as "just open your office in the
southeast". Companies are distributed closer to their relevant hubs. Like you
said, people don't want to move, especially if it means taking loss in
efficacy.

~~~
UncleMeat
Then people need to give up on this "its a pipeline problem" argument, like
tech companies have no capability of acquiring different pipelines.

~~~
anonytrary
It's not about the capability, it's about the switching cost. A business's
cash flow is like their blood flow; they do things that bankrupt them, they
die. You can't expect businesses to go bankrupt to perform a contrived move.
There is an energy cost for every change.

------
forgot_user1234
I am really curious about brown people.

How come Indians succeed in tech? Why do we have so many Indians in tech?

if it's just the skin colour. Why do Indians in tech rise to the top.

P.S. - Before you try to cancel me - I am not trying to start a flame war. I
am curious about your explanation.

~~~
lilactown
In the socratic fashion, I would ask you: why are Chinese or Japanese people
treated differently when they have very light skin, similar to white people?

The answer is that it's not just your skin color but many other features that
lead people to assume many other things about you: culture, heritage,
upbringing, physical and mental acumen, etc.

Historically, black people from Africa in America have been routinely
oppressed and forced into the lower class, whereas Indian people have a much
different history (that I cannot speak to, I don't know much about it).
Therefore, they are treated much differently by our society.

------
baron816
> Black people make up 13% of the US population, we are naturally in the
> minority. But in the tech workforce, we are missing. Among the top eight
> largest tech companies in the land, black people account for only 3.1% of
> the workforce.

I don't think it's fair to compare the ratio of black people in tech/at large
tech companies to the population as a whole.

There are a lot of things keeping black people from being able to even
consider a career in tech, particularly educational attainment. Sure, you can
get a job in tech without a college degree, but black people are still much
less likely to have access to a computer or a high speed internet connection,
or have the free time to be able to tech themselves the necessary skills.

Let's also not forget that, horrifically, 1 in 3 black men in America have
spent time in prison (many unjustly).

So I think before we go around and say X company is racist because at least
13% of their workforce isn't black, we need to contend with how awful outcomes
for black people are in America and try instead to do what we can to ensure
they have a _truly_ equal opportunity to thrive.

------
LudwigNagasena
> I am a Guinean citizen, who went to French school in Saudi Arabia, and now
> lives in California.

So he is not even African-American. I can’t understand why it is important to
him how much people share skin color with him, he should feel as good as any
other immigrant. Do even middle class Americans segregate themselves by race
at work?

~~~
foogazi
It is important to him because it’s important to the other non-PoC people that
keep thinking he should not be in the room

Re-read the interview anecdote: the interviewer, probably not having many
black coworkers, thought that a black man would not be interviewing in tech

Nothing to do with job qualification for the job

~~~
randompwd
> Re-read the interview anecdote: the interviewer, probably not having many
> black coworkers, thought that a black man would not be interviewing in tech

How are we able to put words in the (non participating) interviewer's mouth?

If you're using the words 'probably' and 'thought' in one sentence, maybe your
point isn't really valid. That's a lot of pre-supposing.

------
Roofduck
I've always wondered whether it has anything to do with the number of
applicants whom are black. It's the same argument with why there are fewer
women developers, there could simply be that there are more men in the
industry.

Let's assume that 9 out of 10 applicants for a developer role are men, then
the odds of that role being filled by anyone that isn't a man is 10% (not
factoring other considerations such as skill, experience etc).

Is this not a similar challenge with black developers? According to the stack
overflow survey, the ethinicity of the respondants whom are Black or African
descent is only at 4.5%.

I'd be interested to see data on the demographics of, not only the employed
staff at a company but all applicants that have applied including those whom
were rejected or turned down the roles.

------
ed25519FUUU
The author hits on something really important. Many people who entered the
field 10+ years ago are people who had computers as children. If you’re 30+
right now, that means your family had some means, because computers were very
expensive up until pretty recently.

Hopefully we’ll see the pipe really getting wide now, and many more people
from many different backgrounds entering this excellent field.

~~~
doopy-loopy2
Nope.

My parents were refugees and arrived in this country with just the clothes on
their backs. They worked factory jobs their entire life and never made much
more than minimum wage.

I scraped and saved to buy my first computer and teach myself about the
internet. We were never given anything from anyone.

~~~
anonytrary
While I don't necessarily agree with parent comment, I don't think this is a
refutation. I can tell you right now that the majority of poor families in the
US provide less STEM encouragement compared to well-off families. While your
anecdote is warming, I don't think it is very representative.

------
cwhiz
In all my years of interviewing people I have only interviewed a black person
twice. I hired one of them and the other turned me down. I’m sure I’ve
screened out some in the phone conversation stage but it’s impossible to know
for sure.

I sometimes wonder about this. I don’t think I’ve ever discounted someone
based on their name or how they spoke, but it would also be difficult for me
to determine that. I also don’t recall but a few black students in CS or SE
during undergrad. Are black people extremely underrepresented in CS fields, in
general?

It’s also impossible to not guess when you see a name or hear someone talk. If
I saw a peculiar name or heard a peculiar accent I would be curious to hear
their story. I can try to ignore that impulse but the fact of the matter is if
I saw the name “Steven White” I would be surprised if a black man or woman
walked in the room. It would be hard for me to hide that surprise from my
face.

------
ilaksh
My personal take is that there is still a massive global problem with racism
and more generally prejudice that reinforces social inequality. I actually
think it is not just a problem for black people (although this is a primary
example, and I do not mean to say that all prejudicial treatment is
equivalent) but for many different groups. For example, my fairly poorly
informed understanding is that in some large segments of Chinese population
racism against all other groups is very popular. And also for example Han
versus non-Han, although that may be more of an ethnic distinction, which to
me is a flavor of the same.

Or for example there seems to be a very strong stereotype for Americans as
being lazy, unintelligent, and gun-toting. So I guess these are not all the
same concept, but different types of prejudice.

It feels like a fairly monumental task to reduce prejudice and the
inequalities that it reinforces.

------
ternarybash
Black developer here. Couldn't imagine after conducting a talk, attendees
asking technical questions to my non-techincal peers. Thats a serious slap to
the face.

------
born_a_skeptic
I don't know who is right, but I always think it's always good to look at
important issues from multiple points of views.

If anyone is interested in understanding another point of view, check out
Tucker Carlson. He has black guests on all the time who make a pretty good
counter-case and provide their perspective.

------
etewiah
Here's my relevant anecdote:

I was working in a large telecoms company in Amsterdam when we had a problem
with some hardware that needed fixed. Someone came over to fix it the next
morning and after a few hours it still wasn't resolved. I then asked my
colleague who had been with the technician if it was likely to get fixed soon.
He said something about how terrible the technician was and that got me
confused as my colleague wasn't a hardware guy and I didn't quite know how he
had assessed the technician. I pressed him a bit more and he said something
like "you haven't seen him have you"? Which made me wonder - so is there
something about this technician which will make it obvious on seeing him that
he is bad? No prizes for guessing the first thing I noticed about the man when
I went down to the server room.....

------
archagon
It’s a travesty that this was flagged off the front page. The topic is
directly relevant to the tech industry and we actually have some really good
discussion in the comments. Sigh...

------
atdt
This isn't going to be a popular sentiment here, but I think Ibrahim's
experiences shows why diversity training is important. It's 2020; there is no
reason for things like this happen:

> I've been to job interviews where the receptionist will take me to a
> whiteboard room. When the interviewer comes in, he'd say: "I'm sorry, you
> must be in the wrong room."

> I often get: "I couldn't tell where you are from on the phone."

I often hear complaints that diversity training is largely cosmetic and
doesn't get at the root of the problem. To some extent that is true: teaching
people not to act surprised when they encounter a black software engineer is
an interim strategy while we all work on making diversity unsurprising
(because commonplace). But as this op-ed shows, seemingly small foot-in-mouth
"gaffs" can be surprisingly hurtful, and they are largely correctible with
training. Such training is best understood as one component in what is (or
ought to be) a broader social project — but it's an important component,
especially now.

~~~
melfix
I think one of the problems with public discourse right now is that we're
failing to separate a number of important topics. This problem—the cumulative
effect of racial attitudes on the lived experience of black people—deserves to
be considered on its own, but is often conflated with police reform and the
activity of explicitly racist groups. I think you're right that the best tool
to combat this problem specifically is awareness.

------
mtgp1000
I feel like we are all ignoring the fact that literally any perceived
disrespect can be blamed on racism, especially if you've been conditioned to
look for it, and it's often impractical or impossible to prove otherwise,
particularly once the mob has mobilized.

Being told you're a victim all your life can make you feel like a victim, even
when you aren't. And now that victimhood is currency, all I see as a foreigner
looking in is a growing unilateral justification for the oppression and
deliberate marginalization of whites. Young white boys are already being left
behind in school.

You don't solve oppression with oppression.

~~~
dnissley
Yeah, we're in a weird world where there is still some residual racism (which
is not evenly distributed -- some areas being worse than others), but so does
all of this weird overcompensation for the fact that racism exists in the
world.

I've seen some minorities (especially of medium brown skin tone) talk about
being asked what their ethnicity is, and being offended by that. I've also had
that happen, being a strange looking mix of asian/hispanic/white, but didn't
ever know that I should be offended by a question like that. So I just
answered their question without even thinking twice about it -- sometimes
returning the question and starting a broader conversation about family
history. If I had been told that kind of question was inappropriate earlier in
my life though, then I might have gone around being offended... and honestly
I'm glad I didn't have that idea put in my head.

------
jeffrallen
I'd hire either of you, if you kick ass on the take home challenge. Work and
teamwork matters. Everything else has no place in the work place.

~~~
zerr
You don't ask the first meal for free when you go to the restaurant, do you?

~~~
austhrow743
If I was looking to drop hundreds of thousands on a catering company, when the
relationship could net them millions and millions over the future years, hell
yes I'd expect samples to be part of the sales process.

~~~
zerr
CV is your free sample. If you order the full meal, prepare to pay for it.

------
kqvamxurcagg
I have to say I find the featured developer Ibrahim racist. He appears to view
everything through race and has a special affinity towards other people who
share his race. He also projects that black people are hired accidentally
rather than hired on merit. I find his perspective deeply disturbing.

------
vxNsr
I have a hard time believing that ppl couldn’t place him by his name alone...

Not saying it should work that way, but his name quiet obviously betrays him
as not white.

Also if you wanna claim Syrians or Lebanese ppl are light skinned... the % of
Americans who know that is low double digits.

------
hogFeast
Not to be harsh but the only evidence he actually gives is: there weren't many
other black developers...which isn't surprising given how few black people
study CS.

Like getting offended when someone says: "I couldn't tell where you are
from"...is odd. I get that...and I am white, I just have an accent that is
dissimilar to the place where I live (I am from "here" but people think I am
not...everytime I go into this shop, literally everytime, the guy asks me if I
am on holiday...I don't think I know that he is a xenophobe because he asks me
that). If you come from Guinea...yes, people are going to ask questions and
say stuff about that.

A lot of it sounds like hypotheticals...him saying, if you are black then this
will happen...which is a really negative way of thinking (it is like saying if
you are fat, you will get abused in the street...maybe it will happen but that
stuff happens to non-fat people too, and saying that being fat is the reason
kind of disguises that).

Also, I think most people have experience of being the "only" something at
their workplace. You will work some places and have nothing in common with
anyone...it happens.

Irregardless of the above, I struggle to see what could be different for some
people not to have a problem. Some people have a very unrealistic
interpretation of how other people live their lives. Everyone always has more
friends, more luck, more money, their boss is nicer, the air they breathe is
cleaner, etc.

