
German Engineering Yields New Warship That Isn’t Fit for Sea - okket
https://www.wsj.com/articles/german-engineering-yields-new-warship-that-isnt-fit-for-sea-1515753000
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Tepix
> Engineering graduates shun weapons manufacturers

I applaud this trend.

~~~
Eridrus
I'm not sure this is a good way to look at things. We live in a world where
deterrence is very important to not end up like Crimea. Maybe NATO is enough
for Germany, but this is basically just outsourcing your defense to the US.

I'm not really a fan of the military or it's bloated budget in the US, but we
don't live in a world where war is impossible.

~~~
peoplewindow
Crimea voted to join Russia in a referendum, in the same way they did twice in
the 1990s when a part of Ukraine. Opinion polling and independent (western)
research there has confirmed the results many times, the vote wasn't rigged or
anything like that. The reasons are understandable enough - Russia did much
better economically than Ukraine since the end of the USSR and so salaries
there are in some cases up to 10x higher. And Ukraine had been spending its
time mucking about with language laws and other things that aren't so friendly
to a place where people mostly speak Russian.

So to say "not end up like Crimea" is perhaps not the best example.

All that said, I agree with your basic premise that the world has not put war
behind it forever and to abandon defence, or be unable to mount defence due to
a population that considers it "unsexy", might well one day lead to very
problematic military defeat.

~~~
Const-me
> Opinion polling and independent (western) research there has confirmed the
> results many times

Opinion polling conducted before Russian occupation say 38% wanted to join
Russia, 40% wanted to remain an autonomous republic within Ukraine.

Here’s a link (Russian): [http://www.km.ru/world/2012/09/14/polozhenie-
russkoyazychnog...](http://www.km.ru/world/2012/09/14/polozhenie-
russkoyazychnogo-naseleniya-ukrainy/692296-rossiya-teryaet-krym)

~~~
peoplewindow
Nope, here's an example:

[http://avaazpress.s3.amazonaws.com/558_Crimea.Referendum.Pol...](http://avaazpress.s3.amazonaws.com/558_Crimea.Referendum.Poll.GfK.pdf)

70% saying they'd pick to join Russia. Phone poll just before the vote, by Gfk
Ukraine, 600 participants.

There were other such polls after the vote by western polling agencies too.
But I don't have the links handy right now.

~~~
Const-me
“The fieldwork was carried out from March 12 till March 14, 2014.” That was
after the invasion. Russians tortured, kidnapped and killed civilians there:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annexation_of_Crimea_by_the_Ru...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annexation_of_Crimea_by_the_Russian_Federation#Human_rights_situation)
Locals have very good reasons to be afraid to express their political
viewpoints. Especially to an unknown person who called their phone.

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johncole
Nice to see this is a problem in other countries as well. Reminiscent of the
f35

~~~
krona
Although at least the German navy know when to reject something that's clearly
not fit for purpose.

~~~
Jdam
May I introduce the G36, the main German Assault Rifle, that might be fit for
purpose in cold Stalingrad but fails miserably in Afghan temperatures? Or the
German Eurocopter Tiger that just falls from the sky when deployed to Mali,
due to heat?

~~~
jimnotgym
Whats new, I raise you the British SA80 mk1 assault rifle. The UK Chinook
helicopters ordered in the wrong spec that cost double to convert to the
correct spec. The Eurofighter a decade late. The QE aircraft carriers with no
aircraft, where they were still arguing if it needed a catapult years after it
was ordered. The UK Nimrod MRA4 that were all built and then cut up again...

edit: sources
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SA80#Service_and_modification](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SA80#Service_and_modification)

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_Chinook_(UK_variants)#C...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_Chinook_\(UK_variants\)#Chinook_HC_Mk3)

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurofighter_Typhoon#Delays](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurofighter_Typhoon#Delays)

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Queen_Elizabeth-
class_aircraft...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Queen_Elizabeth-
class_aircraft_carrier)

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BAE_Systems_Nimrod_MRA4](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BAE_Systems_Nimrod_MRA4)

~~~
krona
_The QE aircraft carriers with no aircraft_

This is hardly a design fault. Instead, how about Type-45 destroyer gas
turbine engines suffering from overheating in gulf/Mediterranean temperatures.

~~~
peoplewindow
It's not even true, is it? From the wiki page:

 _The aircraft are expected to begin trials flying from Queen Elizabeth in
2018 with a carrier air wing fully operational by 2020_

So what it's saying is that the new set of aircraft won't be fully delivered
until 2020, but given the very long timescales associated with building an
aircraft carrier _and_ designing and building a new carrier air group in this
case, is that such a big procurement failure? The HMS QE is still engaged in
sea trials throughout 2018 anyway.

Also it can carry US planes and will do so sometimes.

~~~
jimnotgym
That may have been the plan. It seems the UK will have around 24 jets by 2021.
That seems to be what the current planned operation wing will comprise, but
doesn't allow any for training, working up and maintenance[0]. The carriers
are designed to carry 36 planes each. So I would say it is true.

Yes it is planned to work up the ship for operational deployment using USMC
F35's if they are available in time.

Regarding the long timescale, the Audacious class Ark Royal carrier had an
operational life of 24 years, so I would say not having the air wing ready
until 3 or 4 years after commissioning is a pretty serious procurement issue.
You have to remember that the UK does't have any carrier pilots (unless
seconded to the US, but certainly not a squadron) waiting to just do a type
conversion, you would have hoped that some aircraft were available to work up
pilots before the ships are commissioned.

This is also ignoring the cats-and-traps vs VTOL debacle and the propulsion
debacle that delayed both carriers. It makes you wonder actually, had the
carriers not been delayed by this, they may have been ready even more years
before the aircraft

[0][http://www.theregister.co.uk/2016/09/09/usmc_will_fly_f35s_o...](http://www.theregister.co.uk/2016/09/09/usmc_will_fly_f35s_on_hms_queen_elizabeth_first_op_deployment/)

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huffmsa
Surface boats have never been the Germans forte.

The Bismarck was sunk by a handful of guys throwing torpedoes out of WW1
biplanes.

Incredibly that the nation which brought us the U-boat thought it prudent to
forgo all anti-submarine measures.

~~~
eesmith
Swordfish biplane production started in the early 1930s, about 15 years after
WWI, and carried a torpedo between the undercarriage legs.

Here's a picture of what a Swordfish torpedo looks like, before it's mounted:
[http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205146243](http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205146243)
(dated 20 October 1942).

Here's a picture of a Swordfish flying while carrying a torpedo:
[https://www.navywings.org.uk/aircraft/twin-
aircraft/swordfis...](https://www.navywings.org.uk/aircraft/twin-
aircraft/swordfish/) .

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mpweiher
Non-paywall report: [https://navaltoday.com/2017/12/22/germany-returns-
lead-f125-...](https://navaltoday.com/2017/12/22/germany-returns-
lead-f125-frigate-to-builder-report/)

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Simulacra
Reminds me of the corrosion issue on the Litteral ships

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taylodl
Since this is behind a paywall, here's a description of the problems being
encountered: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baden-Württemberg-
class_frigat...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baden-Württemberg-
class_frigate#Problems)

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qubex
Can't read because it is beyond a paywall.

~~~
yalooze
If you're happy to go via Facebook you can use this bookmarklet:

javascript:location.href='[http://facebook.com/l.php?u='+encodeURIComponent(location.hr...](http://facebook.com/l.php?u='+encodeURIComponent\(location.href\))

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holydude
German engineering is a myth. Go to any store and check out whatever has the
"made in germany / quality german engineering" sticker on it and amaze
yourself with squiggly plastics and fake metal parts.

~~~
rambojazz
Where do you live?

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davidmr
Okay, I get that the computers don’t work right and there are some other
engineering-specific problems of varying severity, but the primary objection
from the WSJ’s point seems to be that it isn’t designed to hold its own in a
shooting war with Russia. (And secondarily that Germany’s defense industry is
no longer capable of building complicated programs like this.)

I know next to nothing about strategic planning, but it doesn’t seem that any
missile battery whatever would be a better deterrent to Russia than the great
big German flag flying on the top of the thing. How much effort should Germany
really be trying to put into challenging the Russians?

~~~
Jdam
> How much effort should Germany really be trying to put into challenging the
> Russians?

So what are the options? Surrender when russian partisans cross the border?

~~~
oblio
I think his point is that the option is "strengthening the flag", i.e.
increasing (the already really high) German standing in the world through
economy, diplomacy, alliances.

The odds of Russia attacking Germany, even indirectly, are absolutely minimal.
Germany is one of their main export countries and is one of the leading
countries in the EU (more big trading partners for Russia) plus a member of
NATO.

On top of that, Russia is a shadow of the USSR. A bit more than half the
population and an economy which in relative terms is a dwarf (i.e. the USSR
had a much higher share of the world economy than Russia does now). Let's say
they occupy Germany after a "clean" campaign. Their economy would be
completely shot.

And let's not go into guerrilla warfare territory, they couldn't even control
Chechnya, let alone 80 million educated people which would surely get foreign
support in terms of arms and supplies.

~~~
baybal2
>The odds of Russia attacking Germany, even indirectly, are absolutely
minimal.

So thought Adolf Hitler, until he found out that Soviet army was 4 times the
size his recon told him, bristling with technologically superior weapons in
great numbers, and busy preparing its own invasion of Europe 24/7.

>Let's say they occupy Germany after a "clean" campaign. Their economy would
be completely shot.

Russian political establishment has said repeatedly that it don't object to
Russians having to eating grass. Do you think those guys address those
speeches to Russian population? No, they are saying it to you and strategic
planners of Western states. They expect them to cowardly concede without a
fight.

~~~
oblio
Your knowledge of WW2 is different from mine (and I've read quite a bit about
it...). Hitler was planning to attack the USSR from day 1, where do you think
the Lebensraum was supposed to be?

Regarding Russia, if the Russians truly have to eat grass again, Putin's head
will be in a basket within 1 week.

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zerokernel
Military procurement seems to be something working very poorly in many places.
Not sure if the German military is really much worse than others, when looking
at things like the F-35.

