
Slaves endure 'a living hell' on remote South Korean islands - mcgwiz
http://www.stripes.com/news/pacific/korea/slaves-endure-a-living-hell-on-remote-south-korean-islands-1.322052
======
ChuckMcM
From the article:

 _" Several freed disabled slaves told the AP they will return because they
think that even the salt farms are better than life on the streets or in
crowded shelters. In some cases, relatives refused to take back the disabled
or sent salt farmers letters confirming that they didn't need to pay the
workers."_

If you ever need an example that there is no "government" there is only "us"
you can use that one. These are horrific circumstances for the people
involved. The solution is for the people in this community to take ownership
of the horror and to commit to eradicating it. That means that each of them
will either pay with some of their earned income or with their time, and they
will take care of these disabled people and feed them and house them.
Individually it will be a small sacrifice, but collectively it will give the
disabled a way to live outside of slavery.

Except they don't.

In a democracy, it is run at the whim of the people. When it becomes too
corrupt or veers too far from the will of the people who are governed, it is
the people who must change it. Sometimes that can be done with voting,
sometimes it takes protest, sometimes it requires one give up their own lives.

The choice to eject the current government is also a commitment that people
share.

~~~
nazgulnarsil
Horror persists because we just don't care that much. Especially if it isn't
in our face. We will forget about this story tomorrow.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Median_voter_theorem](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Median_voter_theorem)

------
rory096
Reminds me of the Iowa/South Carolina turkey plant scandal the NY Times broke
last year.

[http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2014/03/09/us/the-boys-
in...](http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2014/03/09/us/the-boys-in-the-
bunkhouse.html)

[http://www.nytimes.com/2014/12/07/us/separated-from-
brother-...](http://www.nytimes.com/2014/12/07/us/separated-from-brother-left-
to-toil-far-from-home.html)

~~~
harryjo
I'd love another source for this story, with the information presented clearly
and not in the unreadable gonzo NYT style.

~~~
mbrubeck
Another source on the original investigation:

[http://www.desmoinesregister.com/article/20090208/NEWS/90208...](http://www.desmoinesregister.com/article/20090208/NEWS/902080343/1001)

[http://www.desmoinesregister.com/article/20090208/NEWS/90208...](http://www.desmoinesregister.com/article/20090208/NEWS/902080344/1001)

[http://www.desmoinesregister.com/article/20090209/NEWS10/902...](http://www.desmoinesregister.com/article/20090209/NEWS10/902090323)

[http://www.desmoinesregister.com/article/20090209/NEWS10/902...](http://www.desmoinesregister.com/article/20090209/NEWS10/902090324)

------
chaostheory
We need to treat the mentally disabled better. S Korea is bad, but just
looking at places like SF (I feel that most of the homeless have mental issues
here); it feels that we're not doing a great job either. The obvious solution
is that mental hospitals need more funding. However where will they get that
money from? Is there another more optimal solution that doesn't require as
much money?

EDIT: I guess we're not that different

[http://inthesetimes.com/working/entry/14142/bulls_hit_farm_l...](http://inthesetimes.com/working/entry/14142/bulls_hit_farm_labor_scandal_targets_florida_homeless)

[http://www.dailykos.com/story/2005/06/05/119393/-Slavery-
in-...](http://www.dailykos.com/story/2005/06/05/119393/-Slavery-in-Florida-
on-Jeb-s-Watch-Ignoring-Published-Reports-He-Permits-it-to-Continue)

[http://www.globalslaveryindex.org/](http://www.globalslaveryindex.org/)

~~~
tim333
I'm not sure you have to go as far a mental hospitals. If you just build half
decent government funded accommodation it deals with a lot of the problem.
Plus maybe the odd visitor to help them fill forms etc if they are not capable
of doing that. It surprises me that the US doesn't do more of that.

~~~
dba7dba
A certain past US administration got rid of mental institutions by denying
funding, which in turn dramatically increased # of homeless in US.

~~~
ninguem2
A lot of shit is still trickling down from that.

~~~
TheCondor
A lot of bad shit was stopped by shutting those places down too.

~~~
ninguem2
I was referring to the legacy of the Reagan administration more broadly.

------
Johnny_Brahms
For those of you who read German there was an article about what I even to
this day would call wage slavery in German slaughterhouses in die Zeit. A
quite interesting view of the backside of the industry's (in this case meat
industry) search for cheap labour:

[http://www.zeit.de/2014/51/schlachthof-niedersachsen-
fleisch...](http://www.zeit.de/2014/51/schlachthof-niedersachsen-
fleischwirtschaft-ausbeutung-arbeiter/seite-3)

~~~
asymmetric
And you can also take a nice look at how Amazon operates:
[http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/amazon-
used-n...](http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/amazon-used-neonazi-
guards-to-keep-immigrant-workforce-under-control-in-germany-8495843.html)

Here's the short documentary:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xdrkY_NpgrY](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xdrkY_NpgrY)

~~~
asymmetric
Why the downvote?

------
zo1
I see lots of people are mentioning other instances of slavery that this
reminds them of. Well, here's one that's rampant, well-known, and persists
right now:

[http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com/2014/08/16/robert-
fulfor...](http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com/2014/08/16/robert-fulford-
slaverys-modern-face-in-the-middle-east/)

I picked the newest "story" link I could find for it. There are countless
articles and news stories about it, with whatever level of bias you wish or
don't; you can google for it.

------
PhantomGremlin
When I was in high school in the '70s, we discussed "Man's inhumanity to
man".[1] Things have improved in the last few hundred years (and even in the
last 40 years), but clearly we have a ways to go.

At least the guy in the article was able to get $35,000 in back wages. At the
risk of bringing Godwin's law into the discussion at first post, this is a
major improvement over WWII when prison guards gassed Gypsies and Jews during
the week, then went to church on Sunday.

[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Man%27s_inhumanity_to_man](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Man%27s_inhumanity_to_man)

~~~
elpachuco
Godwin's law should be taken out the back and shot along with the person
uttering it. Is a lazy form of attempting to neutralize any argument a person
makes by simply mentioning Godwin's law.

~~~
meepmorp
Eh.

References or comparisons to Hitler are nearly always a lazy appeal to emotion
made because the speaker is unable or unwilling to provide any better way of
stating their position. And that kind of argument often gets made as a
discussion over a contentious drags on and one side or the other is eager to
just "win" the debate.

And, of course, you know who else thought people and things should be taken
out back and shot...

~~~
baddox
I'm sure Godwin's law was introduced because of a genuine problem with lazy
comparisons to Hitler. That said, any time I want to make a genuine comparison
to something Hitler or Nazi Germany did, I have to go out of my why to find
some other historical figure who did the same thing, just to avoid wasting
time arguing about whether a comparison Hitler invalidates my argument.

------
kiba
Weird to be reading something like this in a modern liberal society in this
day and age.

~~~
dkarapetyan
How is Korean culture liberal? Maybe you mean consumerist?

~~~
anigbrowl
It's South Korea, not North Korea.

~~~
nl
South Korea is a socially conservative democracy. They are somewhat
consumerist in that they consumer oriented, although not to the extent of the
US.

Consumerist is not the same as _communist_ \- in fact it is almost the
opposite. North Korea used to be a communist country, but now is follows the
philosophy of _juche_ [1].

[1] [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juche](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juche)

~~~
nl
Err.. thanks for the downvotes? An explanation would be useful?

The GP said: _Maybe you mean consumerist?_

The parent comment said: _It 's South Korea, not North Korea._

They are plainly mistaking "consumerist" for "communist" \- perhaps by
misreading, perhaps not.

North Korea is the "communist" half of Korea. I quote communist because their
political system meets no possible definition of communism I know of, and they
themselves claim to have outgrown it:

 _" Kimilsungism is an original idea that cannot be explained within the
frameworks of Marxism–Leninism. The ideas of Juche which constitutes the
quintessence of Kimilsungism is an idea newly discovered in the history of
mankind." Kim Jong-il went further, stating that Marxism–Leninism had become
obsolete and needed to be replaced by Kimilsungism;_[1].

They do argue that Juche is a type of socialism, which I guess could be
construed as true by stretching the definition of socialism and ignoring the
reality of how North Korea is run.

[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juche#Kimilsungism.E2.80.93Kim...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juche#Kimilsungism.E2.80.93Kimjongilism)

------
ada1981
How can hackers help? How might we create new technology to eradicate this?
How might we create tech to empower the slaves?

I'd love for us to begin using our brainpower and super powers to dismantle
these power structures instead of the next "uber for x" app.

~~~
danielharan
One way might just be to find a more cost-effective way to make that same
salt, and put those farmers out of business.

A hack might be to use drones to run surveillance on those places.

The longer-term and stable solution is to have governments or community to
care for those people so they are not homeless and vulnerable.

~~~
ada1981
Yes. Perhaps inventing a technology that would eliminate the need for slaves
and selling it to the farmers at a price point below the cost of slaves.

Also, perhaps a salt farm that was operated by the homeless, set up as a
social enterprise and branded as such. Since this seems to be a luxury item,
the increased price and status could be desirable.

~~~
toomuchtodo
Create automation to produce the salt, organize a B Corp [+], use any profits
from the production to support the homeless and mentally ill.

[+] [http://www.bcorporation.net/](http://www.bcorporation.net/)

------
tomwhipple
It seems to me that we should be talking about sanctions & boycotts of Korean
products. An obvious first place to start is the products produced by slave
labor. But I think it's reasonable to extend a boycott to the rest of an
economy that is turning a blind eye to such atrocities.

So think about the plight of these slaves considering a purchase of Samsung,
Mitsubishi, Kia, or other items built in Korea or owned by Korean companies.
Then buy something else.

------
annand_virk
Not sure what makes me feel worse, the fact that this shit still happens or
the fact that I didn't know it did...

EDIT:

*that this shit still happens so close to "civilization"

------
known
Types of slavery prevalent
[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery#Types](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery#Types)

------
digi_owl
A reminder that the Korean peninsula is pretty much the cold war in
caricature, and still ongoing...

------
curiously
man this region of Korea as a whole always have these stories popping up.
Unlike the rest of the Korea South western part of Korea is economically
undeveloped as a result of the political elite being from South Eastern region
which benefit tremendously (namely Hyundai and other big companies creating
large amount of jobs).

Allegedly there exists a couple millenia old feud between Koreans from these
two regions of West and East.

People from West and East don't marry each other or do business together. Much
of Korea's online communities show extreme hatred for people from South West
region of Korea.

~~~
yongjik
Economic inequality is still a problem, but everything else you wrote is about
twenty years out of date.

It's like how there are still white supremacist websites in the US even when a
black guy is their president. Sure, there is at least _one_ online community
who show extreme hatred toward people from the Southwest region (I wouldn't
name it, but it should be obvious to anyone who's been following South Korean
news for the past several years[1]), but they represent the social norms of
South Korea about as much as Youtube comments do of America. (They also tend
to show extreme hatred of women, the liberals, the poor, the disabled, and
North Korea.)

Also anybody who talks about "a couple millenia old feud" between these
regions don't know what they're talking about. Case in point: in 1963,
Southeast(Gyeongsang)-based candidate Park Jung Hee won the presidential
election[2] thanks to the votes of _both_ Southeast and Southwest regions. (He
then went on to foster the regional discrimination we're talking about to
secure his political base, and died a dictator, but that's another story.)

Even when it comes to economic inequality, the much more serious problem is
that between Seoul (and its neighbor regions) and everywhere else. It was
another social problem president Roh Moo-Hyun (2003-2008) tried to solve (by
building a new capital city that specializes on administration, like
Washington DC), but the constitutional court killed the plan by basically
inventing "customary constitution" out of thin air. He was also widely
supported by the Democratic Party (or several other names the party assumed in
Korea's hectic climate), largely based on the Southwest region, but he himself
was from Busan, the biggest city in the Southeast. So, there.

As for why these "island slaves" are always found in the Southwest region, I
think there's a much simpler explanation: that's where almost all islands are.
Look at the map of South Korea. Not all coastlines are shaped alike.

[1] By the way, if you know the site, admitting "I visit that site" will be
about as beneficial to your online reputation as saying that you support
Westboro Baptist Church.

[2]
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Korean_presidential_elect...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Korean_presidential_election,_1963)

~~~
curiously
The feud is very much real and exists especially if you've ever been to South
East part of Korea. It is not at all on par with white supermacist but it's a
tradition of segregation that is regardless of how advanced or modern Korea is
exist in some way or another. It may not be visible on the open but people
from South East openly discriminate people from South West. The two regions
were separate kingdoms couple thousand years ago and the beef still remains.

You can see clearly the disparity in income and economy between South West and
South East which reflects the economic policies of the past. It may not be as
explicit than before but you can see that there's a reason why South West
voted for the 10 year for a leftist administration in Korea that brought much
danger to the security of republic of Korea as a result of practicing sunshine
policy.

The website is well known in Korea called ilbe.com and it's extremely popular
right wing views gaining the attention of mainstream. IT has many entertaining
articles written in non-honorifics and ton of swear words which is quite a
departure from the mainstream media. It's common to see people spreading their
hatred for Jeolla (South West) region and it's people often referring to them
as some really awful stinky fish dish from that regioncalled Hong-uh (홍어,
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ocellate_spot_skate](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ocellate_spot_skate))
and pictures of former presidents Kim Dae Jung and Roh Moo Hyun have become a
sort of meme.

~~~
yongjik
I'm sorry, I can't take serious any person who would describe Ilbe as
"extremely popular right wing" site, talking about that (almost racist)
epithet about that fish as if it's normal.

If you are Korean, shame on you. Otherwise, find a better source to learn
about Korea.

(Also, 10 years of "leftist administration"? For heaven's sake, in both
elections there were basically two choices. One party harbors those people who
sent troops to murder their friends and families in 1980. So they voted for
the other one. Turned out these two presidents were about as "leftists" as
Obama, which in turn disappointed some of their supporters who wanted faster
progress.)

And if you want to bitch about how they brought "danger to the security of
republic of Korea", you might want to dig up on the whole "gun-wind affair (총풍
사건)" in 1997, where several government officers of the "rightist" regime met
North Korean officers shortly before the presidential election, and basically
asked them if they could start a border skirmish, to persuade South Koreans to
not elect the "leftist" candidate Kim Dae-Jung (who later received a Nobel
Peace Prize for the Sunshine policy that's so cheaply mocked these days).

~~~
curiously
There's lot of inaccuracies here. First, president Park Chung Hee was the only
choice as a result of a military coup d'etat in May 16th, 1961. Democratic
organs only acted to appease United States, they did not function at all. Yes,
Park Chung Hee was from South East (Kyongsang) region. Kim Dae Jung was from
South West (Jeolla) region. PCH tried to have KDJ killed many times for his
pro-North views and viola, KDJ becomes president in 1998, billions of slush
funds travel to Kim Jong Il despite the warnings from US, Kim jong il tests a
nuclear weapon 5 years later, KDJ wins the nobel prize. This is why he is
mocked in Korea, he traded the security of his country for a fucking medal.
The fundings continue when Roh Moo Hyun executes his predecessor's "Sunshine
Policy". Of course, KDJ and RMH were popular presidential candidates in South
West because of promises of economic development PCH completely neglected (the
prejudice against Jeolla region was far more blatant back then).

As you know Park Chung Hee was assassinated by his own intelligence director
in fall of 1979 causing a major state of chaos. General Chun Doo Hwan seized
power eventually. The timing of the Gwangju Uprising or Gwangju Rebellion is
really peculiar as Chun had just begun to seize complete power after 7 months
since the tragedy of PCH. A strong response was the only way to stabalize the
country as there are reports that it was instigated by North Korean sleeper
agents based on first hand accounts. The official case leaves this out but
North Korean defectors admitted that North Korean agents in South Korea were
placed strategically in cities to instigate armed rebellion should conditions
allow it. Lot of pieces are missing with the official version that Gwangju
civilians ran into a cache of guns and ammunition but they leave out the first
hand reports that the people handing out the guns had a different dialect one
that was closer to North Korea. This explains why an Air Force commandos, the
military response because they were responding to a rebellion instigated by a
foreign enemy country. We see this happening today in Crimea, Donetsk by
Russia.

You might have heard that recently, a South Korean lawmaker
([http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2013_South_Korean_sabotage_plot](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2013_South_Korean_sabotage_plot))
was known to have been leading a similar armed saboteur group called RO
(Revolutionary Organization) to assist North Korea in the case of a war by
assassinating various figures, attacking vital infrastructure. The evidence
against them was overwhelming including recordings and informants. He is
sentenced to 12 years in prison.

총풍 사건, the "gun wind affair" was blown wildly out of proportion and is a
popular topic for left wing elements to use in their arguments but in reality
it was found to be groundless accusation and the presidential candidate would
try to run for office 10 years later after winning a large defamation lawsuit.

I am Korean btw, and shame on you for attacking me and being flagkilled
earlier. If you want to sound convincing please keep it civilized.

~~~
yongjik
I have better things to do than try to argue Korean politics in Hacker News
(and I have a hard time keeping my voice calm with _this_ ), so I'll just
point out a few obvious points, for posterity.

Park Chung Hee was drinking whiskey with his aides, a singer, and a girl
"recruited" by special services, while talking about rampant protests that
were sweeping the country. One aide, Cha Ji-chul, had reportedly said a few
days eariler: "Cambodia killed three millions. Is it a big deal if we kill a
million or two?" Mind you, he was talking about the particular wave of protest
that was sweeping Park's own political base, the Southeast (Gyeongsang)
region[1].

Probably fearing that Cha and Park were serious, another aide, Kim Jae-gyu,
shot them in the party scene (Oct 26, 1979), thus ending more than a decade of
dictatorship.

South Koreans finally had a chance of democracy, which my fellow Korean here
referred to as "a major state of chaos". Unfortutely, during the hectic
moment, another general, Chun Doo-Whan, staged a coup on December 12th,
gaining power.

Of course South Koreans throughout the country didn't like it a bit. There
were massive protests everywhere, including Seoul, which is (somewhat
poetically) called "Seoul's spring on 1980". This is what it looked like [2].

Nobody will know exactly what was in Chun's mind, but he might have thought
that he should make an example, probably not Seoul itself (too dangerous: he
probably didn't want to murder people right in front of the US embassy's eyes)
but big enough that people would take notice. A "strong response" to
"stabilize the country", indeed.

The rest, as they say, is history.

While Chun was in power, the May 18th massacre was officially called "Gwangju
incident (광주사태)", and the official version was of course that communists
infiltrated the city of Gwangju, started a revolt, and the soldiers put things
back to order. Stories and gruesome pictures of people shot on the street and
flattened by military vehicles slowly circulated, with angry whispers in low
voices. When a university student, Park Jong-chul, was tortured to death in
1987, people finally decided they had enough, which ignited the June 10th
movement [3].

"Bring Park Jong-Chul back to life!" they shouted. "Murderer Chun Doo-Hwan,
step down!"

Sure, South Korea is a free country. If you want to claim these hundreds of
thousands of people were mislead by communists, go ahead. But it's thanks to
those people who stood against soldiers and militarized police, in the street
of Geumnam-ro in Gwangju or in front of Myeongdong Cathedral in Seoul, that I
or you can say what's in our mind without fearing imprisonment, torture, and
death.

* There was no happy ending. On June 29th, the government finally relented, promising a popular election for the next president. Unfortunately, because of an age-long feud between two opposition leaders (Kim Young-Sam and Kim Dae-Jung), they _both_ entered as candidates in the election, resulting in Chun's minion, Roh Tae-Woo, becoming the next president. Several years later, Kim Young-Sam did one of the worst about-face in South Korea's short political history, and joined Roh Tae-Woo's party, creating a mega-party that basically surrounded Kim Dae-Jung's Southwestern region, and basically cementing the Southeast region as the bastion of conservatism for decades to come.

(It's slowly changing these days, though.)

[1]
[http://ko.wikipedia.org/wiki/%EB%B6%80%EB%A7%88%EB%AF%BC%EC%...](http://ko.wikipedia.org/wiki/%EB%B6%80%EB%A7%88%EB%AF%BC%EC%A3%BC%ED%95%AD%EC%9F%81)

[2]
[https://www.google.com/search?q=80%EB%85%84+%EC%84%9C%EC%9A%...](https://www.google.com/search?q=80%EB%85%84+%EC%84%9C%EC%9A%B8%EC%9D%98+%EB%B4%84&tbm=isch)

[3]
[https://www.google.com/search?q=6+10+%ED%95%AD%EC%9F%81&&tbm...](https://www.google.com/search?q=6+10+%ED%95%AD%EC%9F%81&&tbm=isch)

~~~
curiously
So they are drinking beer and some comments were passed around, and the guy
just shoots him? The only people who buy this crap are the pro-North koreans
in South Korea. Everybody else who live in a sane reality don't believe this
ludicrous story made to make Park Chung Hee seem like a monster.

The rift between Park Jong Chul (President's head of security) and Kim Jae Kyu
(KCIA director) well preceded that evening when the president was
assassinated. He premeditated the assassination by having the security detail
paralyzed by his own loyal followers (who were all executed and jailed). The
bullshit about how Kim Jae Kyu, the mastermind behind all the torture and
brutal political suppression did it for democracy is laughable at best. The
motive was simple, Kim Jae Kyu thought he could usurp power, he falsely
mistook the American CIA's approval and repeatedly sought CIA's help after
assassination. He was foolish because US fully supported PCH's dictatorship as
a strong buffer against North Korea. They continued to support president Chun
and Noh, both military generals and it was only until Kim Young Sam finally
was elected through a democratic vote.

Was Park Chung Hee a dictator? Was he brutal in some of his methods? Of
course. But he is also the reason why South Korea was allowed to thrive
economically. Without the political stability brought on by a military rule
with the backdrop of a serious security threat like North Korea (they were
richer than South in 1960s), you'd have to be a hopeless romantic and naive to
think that someone could've done a better job by "democratic" means.

Anyways, I think I'm done being trolled here. I suggest you to not try to
twist and distort the post-Korean war history of South Korea with inaccuracies
and ignorant statements.

------
UXDork
This is awful :(

------
beloch
Some will forget what the government of South Korea chooses to ignore. Some
will not. In my books, tolerance of chattel slavery by a democratically
elected government earns the voters of that country a boycott.

It's not easy to avoid everything that contains parts by the likes of Hyundai
and Samsung (Yes, that _still_ includes Apple), but an honest effort by enough
people might just make a difference.

~~~
dba7dba
Are you not reading other comments in this thread that talk about similar
slavery in some places in US and Germany?

~~~
madaxe_again
No. Only Korea has slaves. Korea bad.

~~~
dba7dba
No, I think you r bad. Not knowing how to participate in this forum.

------
madaxe_again
This is no revelation - Asia is rife with slavery and indentured servitude.
That friendly Bhutanese waiter? Slave. That Philippino maid? Slave? That
stripper in Macau? Dead slave by now.

More curious is why Stars and Stripes is running this now - did they confuse
which Korea they were meant to be teaching their troops to hate?

~~~
madaxe_again
Downvotes for pointing out obvious agitprop, and that this is a far broader
issue? Ok then. America #1. Go USA. I can only think you're wilfully
blinkering yourselves, or someone deemed this comment not helpful to America's
political cause?

Go read about the fine art of squid fishing, and the makeup of the crews who
man those brigs. It's not just Korea. Fuck, there are slaves (honest to god
slaves) in the UK.

------
briantakita
> Sinan County has more than 850 salt farms that produce two-thirds of South
> Korea's sea salt. To make money, however, farmers need labor, lots of it and
> cheap. Around half of Sinui Island's 2,200 people work in salt farming,
> according to a county website and officials.

Sadly, this is the underbelly of consumerist abstraction. Unpaid Slaves, wage
slaves, salary slaves living unhealthy lives; where those without voice are
scorned. Mere abstractions.

This makes me think of the article "5 Studies that Show How Wealth Warps Your
Soul".

[http://www.alternet.org/economy/5-studies-show-how-wealth-
wa...](http://www.alternet.org/economy/5-studies-show-how-wealth-warps-your-
soul)

\---

I'm willing to take the downvotes, if it leads to someone connecting the dots;
looking beyond ideology.

It's easy to blame the perpetrators. However, we all live in the same system &
our choices influence many. It's time to stop passing the buck. This story is
too common.

~~~
yummyfajitas
I'll explain why I downvoted you. You are deliberately conflating _slavery_
like what is described in this article (e.g. where attempts to quit result in
being beaten with a rake), and voluntary work situations which fall short of
some hypothetical ideal (i.e., "wage slavery", where slaves are free to quit
if they wish).

As a result of such hyperbole, it's often difficult for news consumers to tell
whether a problem is real, or whether it's just activists making stuff up.

~~~
icegreentea
Except that the term wage slavery is typically used in situations where the
worker is either already in debt, or on the edge of debt.

Obviously situations change depending on time, place, and the particular
social conditions, but typically, when you use the term 'wage slavery', the
implication is a situation where yes, technically the worker has the ability
to quit their job whenever they want, but practically, they don't.

There surely is a distinction between even those forms of wage slavery and out
right chattel slavery (or whatever), but the distinction isn't nearly as
great, nor really, from a human stand point, really all that different. This
is especially true the more 'brutal' the wage slavery gets.

Put it another way. Imagine you simply magically eliminated all forms of
chattel slavery, but then immediately put all those magically freed ex-slaves
in deep debt to their ex-owners (with heavy interest), and left them just as
socially isolated as they are right now, and then gave them a chance to either
take their chances and try to find a job somewhere else, or let them work off
their debts to their ex-owners. Are they in a better position than they were
before? Yes. Are they in anything remotely close to a good position? No.

~~~
yummyfajitas
If you are describing various forms of debt bondage (as practiced in India and
other such places), I agree, particularly when most debt bondage involves
beating those who try to quit.

This problem more or less does not exist in the west, with rare exceptions
like sex trafficking from eastern Europe (or from rural areas here in India).
Most people using the term "wage slavery" are not restricting it to such
situations - they are instead using it to describe people who might need to
reduce their consumption to globally rich levels (e.g., $20k/year in the US)
if they quit their job. In fact, I've never heard anyone use the term "wage
slavery" to describe real labor abuses such as what you hint at.

~~~
briantakita
You seem to have a dualistic view on this. Your definition of "bad" is a salt
field slave being beaten or debt bondage and "not bad" is anything "better"
than that. It's a low bar to set.

I agree, salt field slaves are worse off than McDonalds slaves; McDonalds
slaves have the "freedom" to work for Burger King after all. There's also a
slippery slope. In many 3rd world countries, people have the "freedom" to
leave their farms to work in factories with poor conditions.

I define the word "slave" as someone who has freedom taken away by another
person or a system. Some people are in more slavery than others. The salt
field workers have very little freedom. The McDonalds workers have a little
more freedom, but you or I would not want to be one.

I notice that you are a wealthy white male financial trader. It must be nice
to be in a position where you have such freedom. Please have compassion for
people with significantly less freedom than you, even if you don't see them as
slaves. People are more than our abstractions.

Many people work hard:

You know where it ends Yo, it usually depends On where you start \- Everlast

[http://genius.com/Everlast-what-its-like-lyrics/](http://genius.com/Everlast-
what-its-like-lyrics/)

\---

There are also more unpaid slaves today than any other time in history.

[https://www.freetheslaves.net/page.aspx?pid=301](https://www.freetheslaves.net/page.aspx?pid=301)

~~~
yummyfajitas
I merely said that by using the word slave to describe voluntary employment,
you desensitize people to it. Without reading the article, I cant tell if the
article is about forced labor or just some activist whining about how bad
their mcjob is.

FYI I live in one of those third world countries. I still reserve the word
slave for people who are not permitted to quit.

~~~
briantakita
> I merely said that by using the word slave to describe voluntary employment,
> you desensitize people to it.

I feel the opposite. We can look at these horrible conditions and say, "thank
goodness it doesn't happen here in America" and "at least we aren't that bad".
Our sense of responsibility is wiped clean because "we are better than them".

> FYI I live in one of those third world countries. I still reserve the word
> slave for people who are not permitted to quit.

Treating slavery as a rare anomaly encourages abuses that aren't considered
"slavery". We then complain that people are "whining"; they should be grateful
because they aren't "slaves". Disrespecting the "complainers" results in the
"complainers" becoming marginalized and censored.

Some racial minorities have a long history of being marginalized and censored.
Just because black people are no longer unpaid slaves does not wipe the slate
clean and make everything ok.

The dichotomy is even stronger in India, so maybe that desensitizes the
nuances of income inequality in 1st world countries. However, I don't know of
too many who would want to live in poverty working in a McJob.

There's also a malaise of people who work in relatively high paying jobs they
don't enjoy. This addiction to money & convenience motivates people to do
strange things and to view others & the planet in an unhealthy way.

~~~
yummyfajitas
Your argument is based on the fallacy of the excluded middle. Something can be
bad without being slavery. If the high paying job with money/convenience
addiction were really so terrible, why do you need to fallaciously compare it
to plantation slavery to make that case?

Also, talking about inequality completely masks the issue. India has _lower
inequality_ than the US. If you want to talk about desperately needing a job,
you need to either exclude 1/6 of humanity or else recognize that the lack of
rich people doesn't make open defecation more fun.

~~~
briantakita
> If the high paying job with money/convenience addiction were really so
> terrible, why do you need to fallaciously compare it to plantation slavery
> to make that case?

I'm correctly, not fallaciously, using the word slave. Words are patterns with
fuzziness.

[http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/slave](http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/slave)

> One who has lost the power of resistance; one who surrenders to something.

I chose the word slave, because it highlights a pattern of people being
marginalized and losing their freedom. It's slavery in a different form.

Think of boiling a frog with small changes in temperature. If we see words
with fixed lines, like a chained slave in the 1800s south, then we fail to see
people systemically losing their freedom due to economic inequality & being on
the wrong side of leverage.

> Also, talking about inequality completely masks the issue. India has lower
> inequality than the US. If you want to talk about desperately needing a job,
> you need to either exclude 1/6 of humanity or else recognize that the lack
> of rich people doesn't make open defecation more fun.

A False Dilemma; that it's either income inequality or everybody is poor. We
have more than enough resources to ensure that nobody lives in poverty.
Economic competition & pooling of capital has fundamental issues, particularly
with inequality & environmental problems. Cooperation, transparency, &
decentralization seems likely to yield better results.

We live in a world where many people are required to waste time working in a
job that they don't enjoy. Consumerism is deemed "essential" to the social
well being, yet consumerism encourages environmental problems & social
marginalization. Instead, we could be working to improve the environment &
giving everybody freedom to act on their desires. Instead we celebrate the
rich, shame the poor, consume, create wars, plunder the Earth.

