
Penti Chorded Keyboard - shakna
https://software-lab.de/penti.html
======
ganonm
I feel like computers are such an important part of our lives now that it's
surprising so many people settle for the entrenched option of 'standard QWERTY
computer keyboard'.

I realised a while ago that since I spend so much of my life interacting with
a computer, I should really invest significant effort into improving, even
marginally, the ergonomics and bandwidth of the IO channel between my brain
and the computer I am interacting with. This realisation and the ensuing quest
for a better option led me to adopt the Ergodox EZ keyboard. This has been the
most significant improvement to my day-to-day interactions with computers
since learning Vim. It did take several months to adjust and a significant
amount of effort went into designing the optimal layout to suit my needs, but
the results have been incredible.

\- I never need to look at the keyboard

\- My WPM rate is sufficient that I can type almost as fast as I can think

\- The palms of my hands never move (zero wrist flexion)

My keyboard layout can be found here [https://github.com/Ganon-M/ergodox-vim-
ubuntu](https://github.com/Ganon-M/ergodox-vim-ubuntu)

If any of you out there are heavy Vim users and want to take your ergonomic
experience to the next level, I suggest taking a look at the above layout.

~~~
Sir_Cmpwn
I use a QWERTY and I can type faster than I can think. I can routinely type at
130 WPM and at bursts up to 140 WPM. But I didn't type this comment that fast,
not even close. I think much more slowly than I type. Point being, I can
already type far faster than I need to on QWERTY, so why bother switching to
something else, where I will almost certainly be slower for a period of months
at best?

~~~
pmoriarty
It really depends on what you're using your typing skills for.

If you're trying to record verbatim what someone is saying, you could easily
have to type much, much faster than that.

Stenographers are often required to type at least a hundred WPM faster than
you type, and some people speak even faster than that. The demands are even
higher when more than one person is talking at the same time and you're trying
to record them both.

There are some tricks one could use to speed up plain old QWERTY, however. In
particular, you could use macros. That's essentially what stenographers use on
their special steno keyboards. A single chord will translate in to a full
sentence. Likewise, you could trigger a macro on a QWERTY keyboard with a
single chord and that can boost your WPM significantly, if you use a lot of
them.

~~~
fhood
People do not speak at 230 wpm. Ever. It does not happen.

Edit: I stand by this. Auctioneers do provide a good counter example but much
of what they say is just repeated phrases.

~~~
michaelmrose
[https://www.quora.com/Speeches-For-the-average-person-
speaki...](https://www.quora.com/Speeches-For-the-average-person-speaking-at-
a-normal-pace-what-is-the-typical-number-of-words-they-can-say-in-one-minute)

Average speaker is 150, an auctioneer is 250-400, the fastest person. The
fastest talkers male and female can recite over 500,600 words per minute.

People can certainly and some people while exited/upset may.

~~~
Y_Y
> 500,600 words per minute

I realise 500/600 looks like 5/6, but 500,600 reads to me as 500600. Maybe |
is a good unambiguous character to use for "or".

~~~
dsr_
Dashes are customarily used for ranges. 500-600 wpm; 35-75 Kph; 2-3 grams.
While a / can be used for words "and/or", using it with numbers leads to
confusion with fractions: 2/3.

~~~
JadeNB
> While a / can be used for words "and/or", using it with numbers leads to
> confusion with fractions: 2/3.

As Y_Y already indicated:

> I realise 500/600 looks like 5/6 ….

If we're going to fuss about typography, these things:

> 500-600 wpm; 35-75 Kph; 2-3 grams.

are hyphens, and you want an en-dash: 500–600 wpm instead of 500-600 wpm.

------
jeffreyrogers
This is cool, but the author could sell his idea better. It took me a while to
figure out what a Penti Chorded keyboard even is. The video linked at the very
bottom shows why this could be useful:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z_01ha1uS6Y&feature=youtu.be](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z_01ha1uS6Y&feature=youtu.be)

I wish the author had explained at the start what problem this solves rather
than launching right into an explanation of how it works.

~~~
moron4hire
Thanks for that. I thought it was a physical keyboard. Didn't realize it was a
tablet-screen keyboard.

------
lucb1e
I've been trying to use it on Android for 40 minutes now (read: brute forcing
and trying to match what I see with the docs) and I just figured out how basic
stuff like backspace is supposed to work.

Some getting-started tips:

\- The first thing you need is to touch all 5 fingers in a comfortable
position to the screen. This activates the view that you were expecting to
see. (This info is buried in the second to last paragraph of intro text.)

\- To reset the buttons' positions (and get to pick new locations), activate
another keyboard and then activate this one again.

\- The arpeggio versions with two options (such as "tab/del") are directional:
A->B is tab and B->A is del, where A and B are two of the five buttons.

\- "del" is the equivalent of "backspace", not "delete".

\- Backspace is supposed to be the arpeggio version of L, which is "\- ##--"
(index and middle finger), with middle finger first. So what you do is: press
and hold middle finger, wait, press index finger, then release both. Do not
release middle before you press index, do not be too fast, and do not be too
slow. It's easy to be too fast or too slow, so keep practicing I guess...

\- That mysterious little 6th button is the repeat key (this is also mentioned
somewhere in the middle of the text).

\- All keys disappearing when you tap next to it is not a bug but a feature:
it allows you to use a second finger (while the first one hides the keyboard
UI) to tap something behind the keyboard, such as opening a menu or selecting
text.

\- The lowering of audio volume (and perhaps some stuttering) is not your
hitting the key combo for volume changes, but it's your music app detecting
that this app is playing sound or vibrating or whatever and lowering its
volume temporarily in response.

------
nine_k
I'd like to notice an important thing: with this keyboard, one _does not move
the fingertips at all_. The only motion required is press / release.

This is a great quality when hands are busy with something else, like holding
a bike's handlebar, or an aircraft control rod.

It's also likely a good setup for some smart glove type of input device, where
there are no keys to press but finger motions are detected.

If fingertips are allowed to change the position, a few more keys allow for
easier chords and much more characters, all using the same 5 fingers. They can
be touch-typed even easier than a normal keyboard.

------
Uberphallus
Reminds me of the AlphaGrip[0] somewhat. Of the problems of using it, I mean.
I bought it like 10 years ago, and sold it a couple of years later, it's good
to see that they're still in business.

On the AG, instead of a combination of buttons to produce a keypress, you have
8 keys (buttons?) that can rock in two directions, plus thumb buttons,
including red and green "shifts" that work as Fn keys. Normally you type text,
pressing red shift you input numbers and arithmetic symbols, with green shift
the rest of the symbols. It was great for games and got past my regular QWERTY
speed writing English text after a couple of months.

Now, if you write in more than one language, you're screwed. Using other
layouts would make the already difficult task for developing muscle memory
even more annoying. I tried it with US-Intl layout (as I was used to it on
QWERTY) to have a unique layout for multiple languages, but it quickly becomes
unusable: to produce an "À", I don't remember exactly, but required 2+2 or 3+2
simultaneous keypresses, plus US-Intl is implemented different in different
OS, so sometimes you have to take into account dead keys, sticky keys,
sometimes not. And don't get me started on shortcuts and programming...

[0] [http://www.alphagrip.com/](http://www.alphagrip.com/)

~~~
lfowles
I actually used an Alphagrip daily at work for probably a year+. It halved my
normal qwerty speed (120 wpm down to 60 wpm), but got rid of all of my wrist
pain. Good exchange! I had a similar experience that I bought my first one ten
years ago, then sold it after a few years of not using it. On a whim after I
started feeling pain, I tried again and after doing typing tests for 10-15
minutes each morning for a month it finally stuck. Ended up modding it with a
teflon trackball before I finally unplugged my normal keyboard and put it
behind my monitor.

Would be nice to see an upgrade with a working shift key (the modifier is not
actually sent) and a wireless option...

------
pvinis
This reminds me of steno keyboards and the plover system. It's interesting,
but I don't think it's the most important thing for developers. In my opinion
a comfortable keyboard like an ortho one, and a bunch of helpers like modal
editor and shortcuts using something like qmk provide the most value. That
takes you to like 90%. Using steno after that is just pushing you to like 95%.
(I know that's some weird random metric, but hopefully I got the point
across.)

~~~
arxanas
Stenography is likely overkill if you're only coding: an orthographic and/or
split keyboard, keyboard shortcuts, a snippets, and autocomplete gets you most
of the way there. Unlike prose, you really don't crank out that many
characters of code very quickly.

The question is really: how much of your day do you spend writing prose rather
than code? For me, I have a lot of instant messaging to do with coworkers in
remote offices, or emails to write or respond to, or design documents to
write. In this case, stenography really helps me out, and since I've learned
it, I might as well use it for coding where it's convenient (mostly comments
but also for writing some new lines of code.)

------
drdaeman
I just wonder if there's any chorded keyboard implemented as a smartphone bump
case (with 4 buttons on the one side and one for the thumb on the other side,
but maybe some other layout), so user can grip it with their hand and use for
input.

Should be painful to learn (obviously), but then should beat on-screen
keyboards because it won't require tapping (and even looking) at the screen at
all.

~~~
jodrellblank
Indeed; who has never dreamed of a DataEgg keyboard on a smartphone..
[https://www.media.mit.edu/wearables/lizzy/dataegg2.gif](https://www.media.mit.edu/wearables/lizzy/dataegg2.gif)

------
dwringer
This is a cool idea. New explorations and innovations in this direction are
very welcome IMHO. I'm still a bit dismayed after reading about Douglas
Engelbart's 5-key chording keysets that there's very little on the market to
fill such a niche completely.

It may be argued that we now have mouses with 5+ buttons, when Engelbart
himself scaled back from 5 to 3 for the mouse hand, and we're now used to
keeping one hand on the keyboard where we commonly do two- and three-finger
chords, but there's a certain level of facility that I think can still only be
realized with a dedicated chording keyset.

Engelbart's keysets could also provide two-way communication (by puffing air
under the keys) to do things like prompt for certain responses when mousing
over certain screen elements, which still seems slightly out of reach for
smartphones' limited "haptic feedback" (not that I saw that mentioned here,
just something that came to mind when I saw this was an implementation for
touchscreen devices).

~~~
melling
I’d like to see someone develop a chorded keyboard with some sort of gesture
based feedback. An advanced sign language for computer input.

Cameras, etc could be used to read our gestures:

[https://www.cnbc.com/2018/07/16/ctrl-labss-neural-tech-
lets-...](https://www.cnbc.com/2018/07/16/ctrl-labss-neural-tech-lets-humans-
control-machines-with-their-brains.html)

[https://atap.google.com/soli/](https://atap.google.com/soli/)

~~~
KingPrad
I also think our hands could do more in keyboard position. Lift off slightly
and gestures could be recognized by a camera, even things like 2-finger
scrolling could be done by lifting the fingers slightly and doing it.

Same with pinch-zoom or scroll. Or when working with a 3D model, making a hand
shape as if you were gripping a globe, you should be able to twist and rotate
objects on screen.

I remember posting excitedly about this on Slashdot 15 years ago and am just
remembering it now. This should be easily achievable with modern libraries to
get basic detection working.

Although some abhor the idea and want more complex keystrokes chords, for
myself I think there are specific gestures I consider intuitive and wouldn't
have to particularly learn anything new.

------
dminor
A friend of mine created a chorded (virtual) keyboard for making typing on
tablets easier[0]. The more common the letter, the simpler the chord
combination.

[0] [http://asetniop.com](http://asetniop.com)

~~~
lps41
Is this project still active? I remember seeing this years ago, but it seemed
like the developer walked away from it.

I would _really_ like to have the ability to install asetniop on Linux, and
have the layout be configurable.

~~~
dminor
It's still active - he launched iOS and Android apps earlier this year. I
don't know if he's planning desktop support, but you might try shooting him an
email.

------
thom
My dad had an Agenda which had a 5-key chorded keyboard[1]. It was quite cool,
you could actually type in your pocket to an extent.

[1]
[https://www.microsoft.com/buxtoncollection/detail.aspx?id=4](https://www.microsoft.com/buxtoncollection/detail.aspx?id=4)

~~~
utopcell
I had never heard of this device, looks very nice. Thanks for sharing.

------
asplake
Surprised no-one has mentioned the Microwriter [1]. In my teens I saved up for
one to use with my BBC computer but never really got on with it.

[1]
[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microwriter](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microwriter)

~~~
jodrellblank
I got a Microwriter AgendA from someone around the turn of the millennium, and
I loved the chording system as an idea, especially for mobile input. I've
reimplemented it once or twice using the down/right arrow keys and
4/8/6/return on the numpad of a typical keyboard, as a novelty.

And I bought a CyKey, so both devices seen in this image in your link:

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:MicroWriter,_AgendA,_and_...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:MicroWriter,_AgendA,_and_CyKey.jpg)

But it is enormously slow; it's approximately like typing with one slow
finger, with writing being enough let alone punctuation.

I'm most surprised nobody has made a HTML/JavaScript chording thing that works
on multitouch tablets to be an overlay (maybe a bookmarklet?) to type into
textboxes. So this Penti keyboard link is a great interest to me.

------
djsumdog
I want to build a mirror chorded keyboard, using an existing split design like
a Dactyl or Ergodox, where a modifier on each side gives you the mirrored key
(mod+A gives you ', mod+e gives you p, etc.)

I've seen some commercial keyboards like this, but they're incredibly
expensive and non-mechanical (mostly geared to people who are disabled/have
limited or no use of one hand).

My theory is that the learning curve of a one handed keyboard that is just a
mirror would be easier than a totally new layout like the FrogPad or the
example linked here.

Reprogramming an existing split model means I could also build both the
left/right hand versions and try to learn both.

~~~
sleepybrett
This is 100% doable, hell 100% easy, within QMK (the current open source
firmware of choice for custom MK builders)

------
e0m
I built one of these! With a shifter on the palm, and a separate control
toggle, you'd get pretty much the full ASCII set.

Even though I'm right handed, it worked best on my left hand. This is because
of how surprisingly nice it was to use my dominant hand to do something (use a
mouse, eat, etc), while still typing with my left.

Alas I assume the reason this never caught on was due to the learning curve.
People will never leave qwerty. Also it was pretty slow. When I built this
back in 2005, I was thinking for PDAs and early cell phones and was only
competing against T9 and early palm keyboards. After a few months of practice,
I never topped about 45 wpm.

~~~
haraball
Was it something like this?

[http://bengler.no/chorder](http://bengler.no/chorder)

> Chorderoy is a an attempt at crafting an optimal method of text input for
> mobile and wearable devices aimed at those who enjoy the rewards that come
> with free climbing steep learning curves.

------
myfonj
Recently I have been pondering something very similar, but strictly
"arpeggio"-based [0] and for regular keyboards, and whether it could be
comparatively performant like normal qwerty. I've amused myself fancying
scenario when using just fraction of keys in an unusual way could perhaps beat
traditional touch typing professionals. I've seen some video where blind
person claimed that typing on braille keyboard [1] could be insanely fast.

Coincidentally, today I have been testing what my keyboard can handle in
regards of how many simultaneously pressed keys it recognizes at most. (I know
it depends on particular keyboard hardware and its "ghosting", but it was fun
to try out [2]. I've squeezed 12 keys max.)

[0] in penti vocabulary, meaning progressions of several held and released
keys, mainly to circumvent hassle of definition what timespan is still
"parallel" and what "progression". Releasing the last key could be the end of
progression and produce output. [1] like [http://www.teach-
ict.com/as_a2_ict_new/ocr/AS_G061/312_softw...](http://www.teach-
ict.com/as_a2_ict_new/ocr/AS_G061/312_software_hardware/specialist_hwsw/miniweb/pg5.htm)
[2] [http://myfonj.github.io/tst/keyboard-simultaneous-
keys.html](http://myfonj.github.io/tst/keyboard-simultaneous-keys.html) not
perfect, since some keys or OS key combos produces funky results…

------
gfodor
I think there is going to be room in the future for a single handed symbolic
entry system like Twiddler as we enter the era of immersive computing. It
seems likely you're going to need a way to do text entry on-the-go, while
wearing AR glasses. An input mechanism where one hand is dedicated to doing
that seems like a good model, with the other dedicated to more fine motor
gesturing.

~~~
lam
Hi. I think you may be delighted to see what I have built. I would love to get
your thoughts on it if you're in a related field. I can also let you try it if
you'll give me feedback. How can I reach out to you? My contact is my username
@opdig.com.

------
hnal943
I have wanted to try something like this ever since I watched The Mother of
All Demos.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Mother_of_All_Demos](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Mother_of_All_Demos)

------
fsiefken
Really nice to see this, 10 years ago I designed a chording system with 5
bits, distributing the difficult to use combination to less frequently used
characters (like in the Dvorak keyboard layout). Was there any though given to
this aspect?

------
Regenaxer
Perhaps also the video snippets in this article are helpful:

[https://picolisp.com/wiki/?TermuxPentiPicoLisp](https://picolisp.com/wiki/?TermuxPentiPicoLisp)

------
spilk
This reminds me a lot of the old "BAT" keyboard:

[https://www.infogrip.com/bat-keyboard.html](https://www.infogrip.com/bat-
keyboard.html)

------
Regenaxer
I should explain more clearly how to generate an arpeggio in PentiKeyboard:

The rules are: 1\. The last key must be pressed AT LEAST 80 ms later than the
second. 2\. The last key must be pressed MAXIMALLY 240 ms.

A backspace (DEL) is generated with middle and index finger.

While pressing middle and index finger simultaneously (or longer than 240 ms)
gives an "l", you get a backspace when you first press the middle finger (as
long as you like, but at least 80 ms), then make a _short_ tap with the index
finger and immediately release both fingers.

------
xellisx
I still want to try this keyboard
[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/DataHand](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/DataHand)

~~~
jodrellblank
I did buy one of eBay many years ago, and after a long time of hardly any use
(years), sold it again, and still miss it sometimes.

The good: fantastic design and build quality. Magneto/optical key sensors way
better than any key switch on a normal keyboard. Really surprisingly easy to
learn and adjust to "almost-qwerty" default layout. Nice for long-form typing,
fingers roll around very short movements, very comfortably.

The bad: huge on a desk, they are really chunky boxes and there's a big power
supply and controller box. Basically unusable for one-handed hunt-and-peck
typing. Really annoying to use as a mouse (can be done - one side middle
finger does big movements, the other side does fine movements, but it's still
stepped keyboard-based-mousing), but also annoying to move hand from keyboard
to mouse and back because it involves careful lifting of fingers out of, or
into, the key-wells - fingers are surrounded by keys you don't want to press.
Because of that, can't hover hand over keyboard. Ever. Awkward unless you have
perfect typing style - can't habitually press a key with the "wrong" finger,
now there's a correct finger for every key and no other option. Expensive even
then before their big price hikes and production problems, even second hand.

------
ChuckMcM
There was a one handed keyboard in BYTE magazine that was similar to this, it
was built on to a half sphere so the hand naturally curled around it.

My only issue with specialized keyboards is that I have at least 6[1] I use
nearly every day, not all of them are easily replaced, so much harder to go
back and forth between styles than to just have one style you can use.

[1] Home workstation work workstation, personal laptop, work laptop, home
server, work machines in the lab.

------
vegetablesalad
I wonder how efficient could someone be if they mastered this keyboard
compared to traditional one? My first thought is that it takes more movement
of fingers to achieve the same result. For example typing one letter multiple
times would make you lift and lower multiple fingers at once. Or going from B
to V takes no effort on traditional keyboard compared to raising and lowering
combination of 3 different fingers. Nonetheless pretty cool

~~~
jerf
I would imagine having to use a touchscreen is a serious speed impediment,
because of inherent latency issues on a touchscreen (if it responds too
quickly, it gets too many transients). Physical chord keyboards should be able
to go faster. I've seen various conflicting reports of how fast a chorded
keyboard can go, possibly because it's really hard to find anyone with 10
years experience on a chorded keyboard.

~~~
namibj
I have no issue typing full speed with two thumbs on a large phone in
portrait. This incidentally enables an 80-column terminal....

That is, even on QUERTY on a laptop keyboard I get significantly higher typing
speeds due to the use of more than 4 fingers combined with the lower travel
distance (measured relative to the target precision), along with the distinct
tactile feedback of whether you hit the key or one next to it. Tactile
feedback, like a blackberry keyboard, would allow even higher speeds and, most
importantly, allow to keep the eyes off the thumbs, as they are needed to use
typos as feedback and also to correct these typos.

------
gfodor
This will be very cool, if it ever ships:
[https://waytools.com/](https://waytools.com/)

~~~
jodrellblank
Wow that feels like forever ago; that thing still hasn't shipped??

Here's a HN-er ordering one in Jan 2015 and being surprised that the expected
shipping date is March 2015:

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8880581](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8880581)

------
tankfeeder
[https://software-lab.de/Penti1991.jpg](https://software-lab.de/Penti1991.jpg)

------
akavel
See also a related but more physical idea: a "Chordite"

\-
[http://www.chordite.com/protophotos.htm](http://www.chordite.com/protophotos.htm)

\-
[http://blog.russnelson.com/chordite/index.html](http://blog.russnelson.com/chordite/index.html)

------
ComputerGuru
So I'm the only person that didn't realize this was describing a soft keyboard
and not an actual physical layout until I reached "Initially the letters "P E
N T I" are displayed."?

Maybe this comment will save someone else the frustration.

------
p3llin0r3
Would love something like this for single-handed use in Android.

I'm amazed at how poor my typing skills in android are, after years and years
of constant use. Something just is not working!

------
amelius
Nice, though I feel that if IO is the bottleneck (as opposed to the brain),
then perhaps it's time to move on to a more intellectually challenging use of
a computer.

~~~
Cthulhu_
This is true; I only feel like I can't type fast enough when working in
something that requires churning out a lot of boilerplate. The rest is editing
and adjusting. Which could be faster, I think, vs code doesn't for example
autoclose html tags (or jsx / react) fast enough for my liking, doesn't seem
to help me at all.

~~~
amelius
I'm hoping we'll soon get some ML for typing/completing boilerplate code.

------
cjhanks
I have to think there must be at least one disabled person that could benefit
from a keyboard which did not force you to move your arm - and could work with
5 fingers.

~~~
toss1
True, right here! I'm temporarily disabled after Rt shoulder surgery and am
looking for a left-handed-only keyboard solution (typing very slowly w/LH on
the laptop kbd now).

I found a great mouse solution, a Logitech trackball mouse that sits in my RH
sling [1] -- so good I expect to switch to it after recovery. But the kbd...

[1] Logitech MX ERGO Advanced Wireless Trackball
[https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B0753P1GTS/ref=oh_aui_de...](https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B0753P1GTS/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o03_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1)

------
digi_owl
I found myself thinking of teletype wire signals, probably because CuriousMarc
have been uploading videos on them refurbishing a naval version recently.

------
nautilus12
So would someone typing on this keyboard look more like someone playing piano
where they are holding and raising and lowering certain fingers?

~~~
Y_Y
It doesn't seem so in the provided "short" example video [0].

Unfortunately the thumb is on the wrong part of the hand for this system to
work on touchscreen (imho). Maybe it would be suitable for chimpanzees, or a
hardware device like a twiddler.

[0] [https://youtu.be/z_01ha1uS6Y](https://youtu.be/z_01ha1uS6Y)

------
jwalton
> However, combinations where the ring finger is up while its neighbors are
> down is physiologically problematic.

Really? Why?

~~~
mondoshawan
Because the middle, ring, and pinky all share the same muscle group.

Try this: hold your hand out in a fist and extend your middle, ring, and pinky
straight out. Now try to flex each of the three extended fingers individually
without moving the other two.

Now try the inverse: make a fist and try raising each finger individually
without moving the other two. It's physiologically impossible because the
muscle used for extension is shared between those fingers.

(Edit: extension is impossible, not contraction)

