
In India, high-pressure exams are creating a student suicide crisis - AnatMl2
http://www.wired.co.uk/article/india-kota-student-suicide-exams-institutes-of-technology
======
osrec
India is an interesting place at the moment and the pressure to succeed is
immense (often to the detriment of personal wellbeing). So much so that
cheating schemes are commonly devised by large groups of people, and the
ingenuity involved is often quite remarkable and creative.

I've personally hired a number of people in my Delhi office from the local
IIT, and these are a few things I've noticed amongst new grads: parrot fashion
learning is rife across the board. Despite being smart, they often struggle to
think on their feet. It's as if they want a fully defined a problem domain,
AND want to solve problems only within that defined domain, much like an exam!
Anything outside of their comfort zone is met with a rather damp response
equating to "we haven't covered that in class yet". In business (and even
development), that attitude is not a good one to have.

What's funny, however, is that if you walk past an Indian shanty town, you
will find examples of (often illegal) innovation at every corner, from stolen
electricty to rigged water meters etc - usually concocted by people with
little education. The innovative mindset exists in the heart of Indian
society, but the education system somehow seems to restrict it by making
people believe that the path to success is narrow and the same for everyone.
Hence the competition.

I feel the education system needs to encourage free thinking more than rote
learning. I believe it would allow students to enjoy their subjects, rather
than just looking at them as a stepping stone to success. Perhaps if students
approached their studies with a sense of wonder and excitement, rather than
competetive aggression, their mental state would be significantly better
during their years of education.

~~~
adreamingsoul
Sounds like they are copying the education system here in the USA.

~~~
drzaiusapelord
I'd argue that the US, especially in tech, doesn't suffer from "credentialism"
like countries like India do. You can go and become an IT professional with
zero qualifications and if you're good you can move up the ranks. In other
systems you need to have x degree, x certification, or be part of x union,
etc.

One of the US's biggest advantages is that low regulation environments help
build a meritocracy of sorts as long as obvious corruption is curtailed.

Try being a French tech startup compared to the US and tell me how bad the
US's credentialism, education, and regulatory processes are. I think we have
it easy and a lot of our culture rewards and encourages 'free thinking' at
least for now.

------
110011
This is a pretty inane article for placing too much emphasis on a stupid
gimmick like anti-suicide ceiling fans, when the underlying issue is a serious
mental health issue of extraordinarily stressed students.

I'm Indian and I remember the summer of my 12th grade exams back in 2007 just
like yesterday because of some latent awareness that something very important
is happening here. I sat in so many exams that summer. First was the CBSE
boards aka AISSCE (which was the all-important failsafe), then AIEEE (for
admission to the NITs), then BITSAT (for admission to BITS), and finally the
IITJEE (for admission to the IITs). All these exams are fairly long, and you
compete at the national level.

Already back then the competition was fierce with kids enrolling in tuition
centers half a decade even before their first attempt at any of these exams
(it was quite common for people to try a few times). I could write a very long
essay about the depth of preparation that goes into attempting these exams. It
is quite natural that the competitive pressures has worsened over the years
with students attempting to out-prepare one another by even bigger margins.

In a country so huge, of course not all students attempt this route, but
landing a seat in the small list of prestigious institutions is the only
ticket to a good career in India for the most part. This is not unlike
American students who take AP level courses, demonstrate exceptional talent in
sports or music, or volunteer their time in different ways to stand out in the
application process at one of the big name schools. So in that sense, this is
describing a very relatable struggle among students across nations, though the
means are substantially different.

~~~
chongli
_the underlying issue is a serious mental health issue of extraordinarily
stressed students_

The underlying issue is that billions of people around the world are being
squeezed through an ever shrinking funnel in a desperate attempt to escape
poverty. The pressure continues to build, year over year. Looking at it as a
"mental health" problem is only one less level removed from the source than
looking at it as a "ceiling fan" problem.

~~~
110011
The people referenced in the article, who attend several years specialized
coaching preparing for these exams, paying large sums of money in the process,
are hardly doing so in "a desperate attempt to escape poverty."

They are simply trying to prepare better than the competition.

Also you seem to get wrong some basic facts about how well the global economy
is providing for and improving the state of people around the world. There are
no billions that are attempting to escape poverty in the light of some
shrinking funnel.

------
a_d
I am from Kota - the city mentioned in this article as the epicenter of this
crisis. India's annual suicide rate is 10.5 per 100,000 people, while the
suicide rate for the world as a whole is 11.6 per 100,000 [1]. Kota has seen
an extremely large influx of young students over the last decade. Roughly
200,000 [2] students come to live in this city to study for college entrance
exam. Now, while the high-pressure exams are a problem and there are a complex
set of contributing factors that make the exams "high pressure" \- social
norms, lottery-ticket-out-of-middle-class-mindset, lack of other options,
population, demographics (large number of young people) etc. - but the article
is trying to make a link between the high pressure exam and suicides, that
seems a bit problematic to me. This exam has existed for more than 50 years,
and has always been very hard and high pressure.

This article states that "from the start of 2014 to November 2017, 45 Kota
students committed suicide". Please make up your mind about the facts, but it
seems like lazy journalism and a stretch to make the connection between the
exam and suicides without accounting for deviations from per capita rates.

[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_in_India](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_in_India)

[2] [https://www.quora.com/How-many-students-are-in-
Kota](https://www.quora.com/How-many-students-are-in-Kota)

~~~
lozenge
India's population has boomed in 50 years but has the number of available
places at prestigious institutions boomed with it?

~~~
intended
India’s pop has been booming for more than 50 years, and we only got
independence recently enough that institution building is measured in less
than 100 years (to be fair many old colleges exist with older roots, but for
the sake of comparison with the entire population, they are a drop in the
bucket.)

Unfortunately time is not on our side, as it takes a long time to make
institutions and good institutional habits.

To compound the problem- for most of 50 years there was huge bran drain. All
those people who would become professors, or experts used their English
advantage to move abroad and use their talents better.

Not to mention the years lost due to license raj.

I’d say things are slowly working out and improving. Whether it’s in time to
help the demographics, I don’t know.

~~~
BeetleB
Sorry - beg to differ. 70 years is plenty of time to form good institutions.

Having lived in multiple countries, it is often clear to me that the reason
for any country's woes almost always stems from their culture. Things may be
different now, but historically Indian culture valued credentials and degrees
a lot more than they did gaining knowledge. And many aspects of culture
interfere with education. India is a country where relationships matter a lot
more than, say, in the US. Part of that dynamic is the pressure to do favors
for each other. This can be a huge problem when trying to objectively measure
performance. I know a teacher in a 3rd world country who was given a hard time
by society for not going easy on a student who happened to be a child of a
relative. Stuff like that.

Culture is hard to change. Another example from another comment here: The fact
that many students go to school, expect to learn little, and then spend hours
with a tutor after school. I've spoken to parents from similar countries who:

1\. Viewed the fact that their kids had tutors as a status symbol (clear
barrier to change!)

2\. Seriously could not comprehend the notion that teachers are supposed to
teach well enough that going to a tutoring academy would not be required. I
kid you not - quite a few refused to believe I was a top student and did not
have a private tutor, and that my school had top teachers. For them, that's
simply not how the world works.

With the right culture, you can build great institutions in a lot less than 70
years. But examples like the above are examples of a culture getting in the
way of institution building, and you end up clashing with the culture at every
step.

~~~
pm90
I agree with your point that 70 years is plenty of time to form good
institutions (e.g. China, South Korea etc.). But I disagree that culture is
the culprit.

Firstly, Indian culture is incredibly diverse. If you live in Gujarat, you are
respected a lot more for having your own business (whether its a Multi
National Company or a corner shop) rather than an employee, even if you have a
great job. If you live in Kerala, I imagine you are respected well if you go
abroad and send remittances back. This is just a couple of difference on how
different the cultures can be.

Credential ism is a very recent phenomena in Indian society, in place mostly
because of the police-state like rule imposed on Indian society by the
British. When all other methods of livelihood are elliminated (mostly, the
textiles industry, but also local armaments and artists) and the only good
jobs available are those in Government, of course the society will re-orient
itself to satisfy those requirements.

There are many other, very good reasons for why Indian Institutions aren't as
strong today as they should be. The Origin of Political Order is an excellent
book if you're more interested in these things.

~~~
BeetleB
I agree Indian culture is very diverse - much more so than here in the US, for
example. But let's look at some of the examples:

>If you live in Gujarat, you are respected a lot more for having your own
business (whether its a Multi National Company or a corner shop) rather than
an employee, even if you have a great job.

So most kids in Gujarat are not pressured to complete high school?

>If you live in Kerala, I imagine you are respected well if you go abroad and
send remittances back.

To be honest, in my very limited experience, Indians living abroad are
responsible for trying to improve quite a few institutions in India (in
particular trying to build more educational/social institutions that benefit
society in a way that existing ones fail). I honestly don't know if they are
from Kerala though.

>Credential ism is a very recent phenomena in Indian society, in place mostly
because of the police-state like rule imposed on Indian society by the
British.

While I accept blame on the British, things that happened over 70 years ago is
not "recent". The failure of not moving away from credentialism does not lie
with the British.

>of course the society will re-orient itself to satisfy those requirements.

Incidentally, much of the credentialism existed in Britain as well in those
years. Their implementing it in India was merely a way to mirror their own
structures. However, the UK today is significantly less focused on these
things, yet the sentiment is still strong in India. Yes, of course society re-
orients itself to satisfy requirements, but the burden is on the society to
re-orient itself once those requirements are no longer there.

BTW, my aim is not to minimize the impact of colonialism. I'm trying to point
out that blaming colonialism will never be part of the solution to a country's
woes.

~~~
intended
You can blame colonialism, it’s not an issue.

Blaming doesn’t fix the problem, which we can agree on.

My point is that expectations of what can be achieved will have to be
adjusted. India needs a huge investment of talent and money, and people would
rather spend that talent and money to earn US$. The rational choice for
individuals is clear.

On top of it class size, difficulty in testing at scale, job scarcity,
language issues, discrimination, lack of teachers - make it an intractable
problem.

~~~
pm90
> My point is that expectations of what can be achieved will have to be
> adjusted. India needs a huge investment of talent and money, and people
> would rather spend that talent and money to earn US$. The rational choice
> for individuals is clear.

Well, that depends on the individual. It may be a rational economic choice,
but many of my friends do long for their home country and the social networks
back there. Or just to not stand out from the general populace. So they will
still go back.

------
more-coffee
"Large group of young students in India, pursuing a future under impossible
circumstances, collapsing under the immense pressure and leading some of them
to commit suicide."

Well, that's terrible. Surely we should discuss why they even get to this
point, and how this could be prevented?

"Most suicides happen by hanging from ceiling fans, so let's make anti-suicide
ceiling fans."

Nailed it.

~~~
manojlds
So to admit my daughter to pre kindergarten, the school expects her to know
the alphabet already. Talk about pressure.

~~~
rc_hadoken
Is that hard to teach..I mean..its the alphabet..Excuse my possibly ignorant
questioning.

~~~
ieuan
Depends on the pupil. I'm dyspraxic and never learnt the alphabet. It hasn't
affected my life or career. Not sure what use it would be to me.

~~~
ehsanu1
Not sure if troll, but giving the benefit of the doubt...

You are clearly posting a comment comprised of letters of the alphabet. How
would one do so without knowing the alphabet, assuming you typed it out rather
than dictated it. And well, you also read the original reply. So are you
having all that dictated for you? Or are you implying the reading/writing does
not require knowing the alphabet (which is difficult to believe, but who
knows)?

About the use of an alphabet, have you used a dictionary or any other system
that is alphabetically ordered?

~~~
ieuan
Apologise I didn't make it clear. What I mean is learning the order of the
alphabet. I was taught read, write and type without ever being able to
memorise the alphabet.

The last time I used a system that is alphabetically ordered was in a CD shop
10+ years ago. Im not being sarcastic but I use a dictionary regularly, I just
search for word using Google.

------
oarla
I am from India, and I have experienced the kind of pressure that this article
is talking about. Personally, I feel that the root cause of this kind of
pressure placed on teenagers is the abject fear of failure that is prevalent
in India, especially in the middle class population. If one cannot crack these
exams with flying colors, then society(most part of it at least) writes them
off as losers who are doomed to a low paying job with no prospects of success
in life, financial and personal.

A lot of people equate academic brilliance with intelligence and build up on
that logic that it'll lead to financial prosperity, which in turn will lead to
a good image in society and hence happiness. Don't have good marks, you are
worthless. Never bother if you are a great athlete, singer, artist or any of
the other vocations.

Even within academics, if you can't make it into one of the areas which pay a
lot, like CS/EE/Medical science etc, then society views you with pity about
your wasted talent. Doesn't matter how skilled of a Civil/Mechanical engineer
or architect you are.

I feel lucky to have been exposed to the western system to get out of such a
though process and hope that India can pick up some good things from the west
in the field of education.

------
kamaal
These things have always existed in India. Largely happens because most people
come from a strata of society where failure is not an option. Should you fail,
you go back to the same crappy conditions all life.

Having said that, Indians solicit social approval as a report card that
evaluates their life. And due to this people face irrational pressures from
total strangers who have no stake in their lives. I remember suicide cases
were common even during lay offs.

Thank fully now the society is gradually gaining numbers in non-conformists.
This is now considered cool. I remember as a teenager I was largely treated as
a rebel outcast, if didn't care for social approval.

People need to understand they can do what they want, how they want, and on
their terms. Social approval means nothing, especially if people granting the
approval have no real stake in your life.

~~~
modi15
> Having said that, Indians solicit social approval as a report card that
> evaluates their life.

Ask any psychologist and they will confirm that 'soliciting social approval as
a report card to evaluate their life' is basically a human condition affection
close to 100% of the species.

The only thing 'Indian' about it is that maybe only Indians think that its an
'Indian' thing.

~~~
vinni2
> The only thing 'Indian' about it is that maybe only Indians think that its
> an 'Indian' thing.

I am an Indian and I disagree with this. A large fraction (yes it is changing)
of Indian society cares a lot about what relatives and neighbors would think
about our lifestyle. There are so many taboos and restrictions inflicted upon
family members simply because pressure from relatives and neighbors. My own
family keeps quoting things like "what would relatives say" about my life
choices. Now I live in a western society and I don't have to worry about it.

~~~
modi15
Thats because you are not a part of that society. Once you do become, you will
realise that it comes with its own baggage.

~~~
kamaal
No but Indian society carries this a little too far. Women in your
neighborhood are always around to slander other women if they come to home
late from work, or if they hang out with a male colleague.

Relatives are quick to tell you, some times even through sadistic remarks
about things they don't like. You also seem to become an object of ridicule in
case of failure.

Other irrational expectations include wedding expenditure, gifts and other
show off stuff. Even clothes. You won't believe how many people seek social
approval and standing from these things.

In case of exams and lay offs, the kind of discussion going on here. Many
people play out the whole thing as some gory dead doomsday outcome, after
which you would never be worthy of anything ever. Of course this doesn't do
well for conformists, they just get anxious and end up taking these extreme
decisions.

------
itissid
Extreme economic incentives perpetuate odd socio-economic behaviour. Look at
the Japanese greying population renting everything from fake family to a
complete fake wedding with the whole 9 yards[1](Yes Virginia there is a
Netflix documentary on it as well[2]).

But enough about Japan. The dangers to India are very real.

\- 1 million people entering the workforce every month due to demographics.

\- 50% population engaged in agriculture providing 14% of the GDP.

\- Difficult labor laws, swamped Judicial system makes for only technology
intensive industries that employ fewer people.

It is a unique experiment in the history of Democracies where ~600 Million
people need to be lifted out of poverty and into sustainable jobs. This has
not been done before.

[1] [https://www.theatlantic.com/family/archive/2017/11/paying-
fo...](https://www.theatlantic.com/family/archive/2017/11/paying-for-fake-
friends-and-family/545060/) [2]
[https://www.amazon.com/gp/video/detail/B06Y1JVLD4](https://www.amazon.com/gp/video/detail/B06Y1JVLD4)

------
jitix
>To prepare, students from across India travel to the historic northern city
of Kota, spending months or even years away from their family and home.
Whether the children of manual labourers or business tycoons, all have
traveled to Kota for one reason: academic glory

Highly misleading. Only a small percentage of people actually go to Kota for
preparation, and the number of students in Kota coming from poorer sections of
society is exetremely low. The coaching institutes are not cheap, sometimes
costing almost as much as college tuition.

This paragraph paints it as some kind of pilgrimage that every student goes
through.

------
abraham_s
An anecdote and a poll. I grew up in India in middle class family where
education was considered important. A recurring nightmare (autual dream I see
during sleep) I see even in my adulthood is about me about to take an exam and
not being prepared for it. I do not see this nightmare often but I still
remember it since the amount of panic I feel when I see it. I discussed with
my wife and she also have these nightmare of similar nature. I wanted to check
whether anyone out here see this and whether it is more prevalent in culture
like Indian culture or is it a universal phenomenon?

~~~
existencebox
American also born to an education-focused set of parents.

I've been out of school well over a decade and still have those nightmares.
Usually correlates with work-stress for me now, but at least once or twice a
year I wake up terrified out of a dream where I'm walking around my highschool
(always highschool, never college, oddly, despite my college courses being
MUCH harder; I think because the artificial stakes and utter lack of autonomy)
trying to find the classroom for some test I didn't realize I had.

I had this same conversation with my wife recently as well. It still blows me
away that I'm hard pressed to think of situations where I felt as
stressed/panicked as I was in parts of highschool, and I've not shirked
challenges by any means. I both respect and would not want to be a kid growing
up nowadays.

------
llarsson
Notice how large percentage of the article was about a stupid fan, whose main
feature is falling off the ceiling, rather than about the actual topic you
clicked on the article for.

~~~
DanBC
The most important suicide prevention measure is to reduce access to means and
methods.

If people in India are hanging themselves from ceiling fans a safer fan would
be an important suicide prevention measure.

Why is it "stupid"?

~~~
sonaltr
I'd say the most important measure would be to fix the root cause.

If kids don't have access to fans, they'll find something else.

------
enitihas
The root problem is that there are too few institutes offering quality
education, and given the limited seats, the competition is sky high. Without
going to Kota, there is almost zero chance a student from a small town or
village is going to make it to any of those institutions. The quality of
education in a reputed City school and the best small town school is vastly
different. I consider myself lucky that my district happened to have a good
school, that students even from neighbouring districts attended (we are
talking about travelling 30 kms to school). But not everyone has access to one
and hence Kota is their only alternative.

------
thewhitetulip
The issue is that kids aren't taught to handle pressure, that is the main
problem because parents pamper kids until they go to college!

as a child, you are not allowed to have your own decisions, like ever. You eat
what your parents tell you to eat, you take admission to undergrad/postgrad
about what your parents tell. You study hard as they told you, they even
decide when and to whom you lose virginity! (arranged marriage)

No wonder if there is a little pressure then kids can't handle it. This is not
a governmental issue, this is societal one. and the government can't do shit,
pardon my language.

Now what will happen? The govt will panick and reduce the quality of exams,
the exams which are already pathetic in quality, the proof for which can be
found by counting the number of Indian instituties in top 100 in the world,
ONE!!

~~~
sn41
I have studied in Indian and American universities. Many "top ranked" American
universities have considerably milder requirements than what is required for
passing IIT JEE.

Ranking is based on a number of factors like funding and number of foreign
faculty and students. It has nothing to do with the toughness of the entrance
exams.

In fact, if you rank institutes according to acceptance ratios, IITs will
nearly be the top institutes in the world (the acceptance percentage, roughly
10000 among 1200000, or approx 0.8 percent), along with places like University
of Tokyo. If you say restrict to the 5 old IITs, the acceptance ratio is
around 0.4 percent. Acceptance ratios have been kept out from ranking
parameters.

~~~
thewhitetulip
Screw acceptance ratios

Tell me how many googles, facebooks have been started by IIT grads. That
number ought to count for something right

~~~
tathougies
Sun Microsystems was started by an IIT grad (Vinod Khosla), and is responsible
for the most popular software platform in the world. Without it, we wouldn't
have a lot of the software we do today. I mean... I'm really not a fan of
Java, but you'd be hard-pressed to deny its impact on computing.

Arguably, Sun Microsystems has had a _much_ larger impact than facebook or
google, which are mainly notable for their money making ability rather than
their technical prowess. In comparison to Java, Google's attempt at
programming languages (Go, for example) are exceptionally pathetic. Coming
from someone who thinks Java is awfully engineered, that's really saying
something.

~~~
thewhitetulip
I can give countless such examples about Harvard stanford. You can give me one
and that too not a unicorn.

Can't you see my point? Sun was bought by Oracle because of Java, so Khosla
basically developed a language which Oracle bought.

I am not belittling the achivements of Khosla, but other institutes outside
India have achieved far greater than what Indian institutes can hope to attain

you can't compare Go and Java. Both languages have widely different. Java was
meant to writing softwares for systems like fridges Go was meant to write
softwares by a large team and exploit parallel processing architecture of
modern CPUSs

And trust me, Go is much better when it comes to writing backends and web
services

Java is good for enterprise software

~~~
tathougies
Actually, the list is quite extensive. I called out Sun mainly because it is a
class above Google and Facebook. Also, Sun contributed significantly more than
just Java: Solaris (one of the first widely used kernels that had containers),
SPARC, VirtualBox, OpenOffice, ZFS. I think it's really sad that people have
forgotten the contributions of the first-generation of large computer
companies. I rank Sun Microsystems with the likes of Microsoft and Apple.

Also, other than Google or Facebook, I can't mention any company of that size
founded by Harvard or Stanford Alums (in the computation industry at least).
Can you?

Other examples BTW are Cirrus Logic, Zoho, Infosys, etc.

~~~
thewhitetulip
[https://www.inc.com/larry-kim/unicorn-universities-where-
mos...](https://www.inc.com/larry-kim/unicorn-universities-where-most-billion-
dollar-company-founders-went-to-school.html)

The top school on the list, Stanford University, claims 51 unicorn founders as
alumni while runner-up Harvard University has 37. Rounding out the top three
is the University of California with 18.

This is the truth but I can just tel you the truth, I can't make you believe
it.

~~~
tathougies
I'm not sure what there is to believe. Obviously, Stanford and Harvard are at
the top of the list when it comes to founders. However, you claimed that IIT
has never produced a company the likes of Facebook or Google. I pointed out a
few companies that are in the same league. Moreover, the source you linked to
points out that IIT is the fourth highest unicorn founder producer. This is
quite notable, given that it's an institute in a relatively poor country. It's
more notable given that Indian graduates are at a disadvantage when competing
in the united states as well, due to extra regulation on foreign companies or
the overhead of immigration.

I'm not sure what point you were trying to prove with your graph. I never
claimed that IIT produced more superstars than Harvard or Stanford, only that
it does produce some.

You said:

> Tell me how many googles, facebooks have been started by IIT grads.

The number is 18, according to your data, which makes it #4 in the world,
which is a very respectable position.

------
nishnik
I appreciate this for the article points out an alarming issue. But there has
been slight mis-representation. It slightly portrays that Indian engineering
education landscape starts and ends in IITs only. No, there are the NITs,
BITSes, IIITs, IISc and others which have equal facilities as IITs and are
even doing better than some IITs.

~~~
kamaal
>>It slightly portrays that Indian engineering education landscape starts and
ends in IITs only.

Well, the problem is people treat degrees from these institutions as lifelong
aristocratic privilege. Once you start going in that direction, its now in
your interest to keep the myths alive about your alma mater.

How else are you going to earn higher than everybody else? You have to
convince the society nobody can ever be good as you, by very social design,
and you have to keep things that way.

~~~
worldexplorer
And the constant taunting they get when they are not able to get 'expected'
package . 'Oh you are from IIT why working in this startup at such low
package. My friend from XYZ college is working for much better company/salary
than you.'

Interests, skills, background, ambitions and the human behind the degree all
goes to hell.

~~~
hi41
The constant comparison to others really hurts. One is never happy, always
looking at the next move to bring happiness which never happens.

------
twooclock
Reminds me of the movie 3 idiots
([https://m.imdb.com/title/tt1187043/](https://m.imdb.com/title/tt1187043/)).
I guess the story is still valid nowdays. Great inspirational movie btw...

------
truculation
The ridiculous thing is that exams are irrational: they don't measure
knowledge and ability, i.e. they don't measure what they purport to measure.
It makes the societal scale suffering and death all the more meaningless and
disturbing.

~~~
TangoTrotFox
Why do you think they don't measure knowledge and ability? They're not perfect
of course, but I mean asking you to demonstrate your competence in a series of
problems is going to give at least a reasonable ballpark of somebody's
competence.

Yeah, things like preparation classes can kind of turn it all into gaming the
system, but on the other hand I'm quite curious what percent of people that
scored e.g. perfectly on the math on the SAT actually took these classes. I
did, and I never did any preparation - but I've always enjoyed and done well
at math, and I think my performance was reflected in this. And I don't think
somebody who had no ability or enjoyment of math is suddenly going to start
scoring very well just because of some prep classes.

~~~
truculation
The way I see it. Exams can check recall of facts, names, definitions. Also
skill at identifying narrow classes of problems (which resemble facts) and
extracting them from unrealistic settings. e.g. 'There are 49 dogs signed up
to compete in the dog show. There are 36 more small dogs than large dogs
signed up to compete. How many small dogs are signed up to compete?' and other
such trick questions.

The former can be crammed and quickly forgotten. Not knowledge. The latter
skill isn't knowledge of the relevant field.

In the less rigorous, more arty fields (shall we say) the trick is usually to
flatter the examiners by firing their own opinions back at them in original
ways. This can be highly skillful and requires awareness of the academic
milieu. But not knowledge of the relevant field.

What counts is _depth_ , and depth depends on semantic connections, including
connections to _other fields_. These are all differentiated and can't be
meaningfully added to yield a number, as if we were counting eggs or measuring
a distance.

------
kstx
Just wondering how this might be tied to the statistic[1] which ranks top
countries (hours/week) where parents help their kids with their homework.
India ranks as the top country. This might set bad habits to the students with
learning, as they come more dependant to get help from their parents (and
other peers) and it might also hamper their problem solving skills.

[1]
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16882430](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16882430)

~~~
jackhack
And not too far from parental "assistance: is the question of cheating, which
is reportedly widespread. Is it the pressure of the exams alone, or anger
about the cheating-prevention measures?

Somewhat related, I recall stories of riots in China due to anti-cheating
measures -- teachers and proctors were dragged into the streets and beaten,
and one parent indignantly proclaimed "It's not fair! If they cannot cheat,
how will they succeed?"

------
Balgair
One thing for Westerners to be aware of: In India, your exam scores (SAT-type
thingys) are public, _very_ public. They are usually published in a special
edition of the local newspaper, in descending order. Meaning that the best kid
comes first in a very public way. Couple this with the familial honor
system/arranged marriages and I think you'll understand why pressure can be so
intense. Even your love-life can be radically changed by these tests.

~~~
outworlder
OMG! And I thought some of my teachers were horrible because they handed out
exam results in descending order.

Although, now that I think about it, my country does the exact same thing for
university admission exams, at least the public ones.

------
fspacef
There is a Bollywood movie that excels on this subject and delves deeper into
the culture that creates an environment favorable to such outcomes.

Name = "3 Idiots"

------
j0e1
Having gone through the system, my two cents:

The exploding population of India has put a huge pressure on the public
infrastructure. Any credible university/college (because of numerous swindling
orgs) which usually means govt. run has a flood of candidates, the IITs being
the archetypal example. Add this to the social pressure put by the definition
of success according to the culture and you've got yourself in an Indian
pressure cooker[1] which shapes you to perfectly fit the mold of the
educational system- effectively quenching creativity.

I wouldn't generalize though. The smart still are able to wiggle through and
come out the other end without selling their soul. But the opportunity cost
for the others who would have excelled given better instruction and
infrastructure is unfathomable.

[1]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pressure_cooking](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pressure_cooking)

------
spacehome
> From the start of 2014 to November 2017, 45 Kota students committed suicide.

Every suicide is a tragedy, but what's the base rate? I have no idea if 45 is
a lot or a little without knowing how many people were Kota students during
this timeframe and what the overall youth suicide rate in India is. For all
the reader knows, the suicide rate is lower in this population. Why doesn't
the media report the basic information that would make their case? It's bad,
innumerate reporting.

I bring this up because the way this is reported is similar to the Foxconn
suicide "scandal" where it turned out the suicide rate among Foxconn employees
was _lower_ than the national average. ([https://www.zdnet.com/article/media-
gets-its-facts-wrong-wor...](https://www.zdnet.com/article/media-gets-its-
facts-wrong-working-at-foxconn-significantly-cuts-suicide-risk/))

------
RandomCSGeek
The problem is not with the exams. When millions try to get past the
bottleneck with width of 10K, the competition will obviously be intense. And a
developing country like India cannot afford more institutes like IITs, even
those that currently exist(the newer ones) need a lot of improvement,
especially funding for research.

IMHO, the problem lies with the parents who push/force their children into a
race that they don't want to be a part of. Then it doesn't matter if they
excel or not, they feel lost and hopeless. The number of classmates I had
during engg who had no interest in engg/CS was huge.

Solving this problem would solve a lot of issues. It's getting solved as
people are getting disillusioned from Engg == Money. The number of students
applying to engg is gradually decreasing every year (80K less this year).

------
jaequery
Surprised Korea wasnt mentioned, I believe they have the highest suical rates
if Im not mistaken. The kids starting from elementary start school at 7am and
comes back home around midnight. Which is really gross and atrocious to hear,
almost as bad as labor camps if you ask me.

------
asdasdasdasd123
My parents died when I was 7. I starved for food when I was a kid. My elder
siblings sacrificed everything to buy me books. I wore tattered clothes all my
childhood. Today, at age 38, I'm worth many millions of dollars and living in
Silicon Valley. Why? For three years, between ages 15-18, I worked my arse
off, studying under candle lights and streetlights (no electricity at home)
and got into IIT.

I agree that something needs to be done.

A few of my relatives went into depression and have serious mental health
issues due to the stress of preparing for IIT JEE. Having seen both sides of
the story, I don't have a solution.

A good job can be life changing, while the human toll it takes along the way
cannot justify the means...

------
throwaway_45
India is a country with a huge split. There is a lot of rich people and and a
lot of poor people. This is the only chance a lot of these kids have to get
out of their situation. We complain about america's social safety net well
India's is a lot worse. It doesn't really even exist. If some of these kids
can't get out they lose hope. I think the dream is get into IIT, get into MNC
or US college and get out.

Yeah it puts a huge amount of pressure on kids because it might not be just
them, but their families too. They are making huge sacrifices too for their
kid to succeed.

------
pulsarpietro
All striving to conform, what a waste of minds. Poor people, they should
rebel.

~~~
sonaltr
As an Indian who's been through this (and luckily got out) - for every one
person who rebels, you'll have nine others who'll be lining up to take that
person's place.

------
vinayms
The situation is nothing new. I am from Bangalore and often hear a well known
anecdote about Mysore, a large historically rich city about 100 km from
Bangalore. I hear it from people of my parents' generation, so it must be the
60s. Its invariably said in a humorous tone.

The 10th year of school is a very important stage, transitioning to
university, and the exam has always been stress inducing. On the day of the
result, there were policemen guarding a lake called kukkarahalli kere in order
to stop students who failed from committing suicide.

------
eric24234
The important thing what people miss outside india is that india forces people
to marry by 28 or so. This mean the thought responsibiliy is so huge. This is
not the case in western society. It is much more evolved. An individual has a
free choice to choose work less and enjoy and not have a family. This is sadly
not the case in india.

------
raincom
When more than 50% of seats are reserved under quotas, what is there left to
compete, unless you are the brightest of the bright. It is irrational to put
efforts to study for exams for both open category candidates and those under
reservation categories.

~~~
univalent
There are no quotas in IITs or BITS. Just SC/ST which is like 1-2%

------
coldtea
How is death less high pressure that an exam so as to seem more enticing an
option?

~~~
volkk
Have you ever been in a situation where all you want is for it to be no more?
I have, and while I haven't actually considered suicide, few thoughts have
definitely ran through my mind wondering "what if I just didn't exist anymore
so that I wouldn't be in this miserable situation" before quickly snapping out
of it. Some people don't snap out of it and latch onto it while it slowly
festers, and then ultimately it just happens on a particularly low day.

------
madengr
This happens in the USA too, except at college level. A nearby shooting range
has had a few suicides by Asian students at the end of the spring semester.

------
vinceguidry
When I learned that the military suicide rate is no higher than the suicide
rate in the civilian world, my criteria for believing that any one thing is so
deleterious to mental health that it actually drives people to suicide went up
tremendously.

Our minds are remarkably robust and most will handle immense pressure. Some
minds just aren't. Sure, they'll crack under pressure. But that pressure can
come from literally anywhere, including existential angst that comes from
nowhere but the person's own mind.

Hence why suicide rates tend to remain constant no matter the situation.

~~~
Mediterraneo10
I wouldn’t expect the military suicide rate to be higher than the civilian
one. Yes, the military does involve stresses, but there is also some sense of
camaraderie and common cause. I’d expect more suicide in places where people
don’t get those kinds of social bonds.

------
ausjke
from what i read and what i saw in test cheating,is it common in india
culture? our local high school is investigating test cheating,turns out all of
them(12) are from indian,which puzzled me, other culture treats test cheating
something extremely bad,but the india students probably think it is not a big
deal?

~~~
sumedh
Indian here, unfortunately cheating/not following rules is part of our
culture. Most of the times you dont get caught, if you do get caught then you
just have to pay a small bribe and you are free.

So if you dont cheat you will fall behind everbody else is doing it so you do
it as well

------
marsrover
I quit reading when they started trying to sell me on a new product.

------
good_sir_ant
Sure, high pressure. Has nothing to do with the fact that India ranks 136 on
the Freedom Index, let alone it's other issues.

------
hypertexthero
> I WONDER IF we have ever asked ourselves what education means. Why do we go
> to school, why do we learn various subjects, why do we pass examinations and
> compete with each other for better grades? What does this so-called
> education mean, and what is it all about? This is really a very important
> question, not only for the students, but also for the parents, for the
> teachers, and for everyone who loves this earth. Why do we go through the
> struggle to be educated? Is it merely in order to pass some examinations and
> get a job? Or is it the function of education to prepare us while we are
> young to understand the whole process of life? Having a job and earning
> one's livelihood is necessary - but is that all? Are we being educated only
> for that? Surely, life is not merely a job, an occupation; life is something
> extraordinarily wide and profound, it is a great mystery, a vast realm in
> which we function as human beings. If we merely prepare ourselves to earn a
> livelihood, we shall miss the whole point of life; and to understand life is
> much more important than merely to prepare for examinations and become very
> proficient in mathematics, physics, or what you will.

> So, whether we are teachers or students, is it not important to ask
> ourselves why we are educating or being educated? And what does life mean?
> Is not life an extraordinary thing? The birds, the flowers, the flourishing
> trees, the heavens, the stars, the rivers and the fish therein - all this is
> life. Life is the poor and the rich; life is the constant battle between
> groups, races and nations; life is meditation; life is what we call
> religion, and it is also the subtle, hidden things of the mind - the envies,
> the ambitions, the passions, the fears, fulfilments and anxieties. All this
> and much more is life. But we generally prepare ourselves to understand only
> one small corner of it. We pass certain examinations, find a job, get
> married, have children, and then become more and more like machines. We
> remain fearful, anxious, frightened of life. So, is it the function of
> education to help us understand the whole process of life, or is it merely
> to prepare us for a vocation, for the best job we can get?

> What is going to happen to all of us when we grow to be men and women? Have
> you ever asked yourselves what you are going to do when you grow up? In all
> likelihood you will get married, and before you know where you are you will
> be mothers and fathers; and you will then be tied to a job, or to the
> kitchen, in which you will gradually wither away. Is that all that your life
> is going to be? Have you ever asked yourselves this question? Should you not
> ask it? If your family is wealthy you may have a fairly good position
> already assured, your father may give you a comfortable job, or you may get
> richly married; but there also you will decay, deteriorate. Do you see?

> Surely, education has no meaning unless it helps you to understand the vast
> expanse of life with all its subtleties, with its extraordinary beauty, its
> sorrows and joys. You may earn degrees, you may have a series of letters
> after your name and land a very good job; but then what? What is the point
> of it all if in the process your mind becomes dull, weary, stupid? So, while
> you are young, must you not seek to find out what life is all about? And is
> it not the true function of education to cultivate in you the intelligence
> which will try to find the answer to all these problems? Do you know what
> intelligence is? It is the capacity, surely, to think freely without fear,
> without a formula, so that you begin to discover for yourself what is real,
> what is true; but if you are frightened you will never be intelligent. Any
> form of ambition, spiritual or mundane, breeds anxiety, fear; therefore
> ambition does not help to bring about a mind that is clear, simple, direct,
> and hence intelligent.

> You know, it is really very important while you are young to live in an
> environment in which there is no fear. Most of us, as we grow older, become
> frightened; we are afraid of living, afraid of losing a job, afraid of
> tradition, afraid of what the neighbours, or what the wife or husband would
> say, afraid of death. Most of us have fear in one form or another; and where
> there is fear there is no intelligence. And is it not possible for all of
> us, while we are young, to be in an environment where there is no fear but
> rather an atmosphere of freedom - freedom, not just to do what we like, but
> to understand the whole process of living? Life is really very beautiful, it
> is not this ugly thing that we have made of it; and you can appreciate its
> richness, its depth, its extraordinary loveliness only when you revolt
> against everything - against organized religion, against tradition, against
> the present rotten society - so that you as a human being find out for
> yourself what is true. Not to imitate but to discover - that is education,
> is it not? It is very easy to conform to what your society or your parents
> and teachers tell you. That is a safe and easy way of existing; but that is
> not living, because in it there is fear, decay, death. To live is to find
> out for yourself what is true, and you can do this only when there is
> freedom, when there is continuous revolution inwardly, within yourself.

> But you are not encouraged to do this; no one tells you to question, to find
> out for yourself what God is, because if you were to rebel you would become
> a danger to all that is false. Your parents and society want you to live
> safely, and you also want to live safely. Living safely generally means
> living in imitation and therefore in fear. Surely, the function of education
> is to help each one of us to live freely and without fear, is it not? And to
> create an atmosphere in which there is no fear requires a great deal of
> thinking on your part as well as on the part of the teacher, the educator.

> Do you know what this means - what an extraordinary thing it would be to
> create an atmosphere in which there is no fear? And we must create it,
> because we see that the world is caught up in endless wars; it is guided by
> politicians who are always seeking power; it is a world of lawyers,
> policemen and soldiers, of ambitious men and women all wanting position and
> all fighting each other to get it. Then there are the so-called saints, the
> religious gurus with their followers; they also want power, position, here
> or in the next life. It is a mad world, completely confused, in which the
> communist is fighting the capitalist, the socialist is resisting both, and
> everybody is against somebody, struggling to arrive at a safe place, a
> position of power or comfort. The world is torn by conflicting beliefs, by
> caste and class distinctions, by separative nationalities, by every form of
> stupidity and cruelty - and this is the world you are being educated to fit
> into. You are encouraged to fit into the framework of this disastrous
> society; your parents want you to do that, and you also want to fit in.

> Now, is it the function of education merely to help you to conform to the
> pattern of this rotten social order, or is it to give you freedom - complete
> freedom to grow and create a different society, a new world? We want to have
> this freedom, not in the future, but now, otherwise we may all be destroyed.
> We must create immediately an atmosphere of freedom so that you can live and
> find out for yourselves what is true, so that you become intelligent, so
> that you are able to face the world and understand it, not just conform to
> it, so that inwardly, deeply, psychologically you are in constant revolt;
> because it is only those who are in constant revolt that discover what is
> true, not the man who conforms, who follows some tradition. It is only when
> you are constantly inquiring, constantly observing, constantly learning,
> that you find truth, God, or love; and you cannot inquire, observe, learn,
> you cannot be deeply aware, if you are afraid. So the function of education,
> surely, is to eradicate, inwardly as well as outwardly, this fear that
> destroys human thought, human relationship and love.

From Think On These Things (or This Matter of Culture), Chapter 1, The
Function of Education

By Jiddu Krishnamurti

[https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/13470.Think_on_These_Thi...](https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/13470.Think_on_These_Things)

~~~
hypertexthero
(Continued)

> Questioner: If all individuals were in revolt, don't you think there would
> be chaos in the world?

> Krishnamurti: Listen to the question first, because it is very important to
> understand the question and not just wait for an answer. The question is: if
> all individuals were in revolt, would not the world be in chaos? But is the
> present society in such perfect order that chaos would result if everyone
> revolted against it? Is there not chaos now? is everything beautiful,
> uncorrupted? Is everyone living happily, fully, richly? Is man not against
> man? Is there not ambition, ruthless competition? So the world is already in
> chaos, that is the first thing to realize. Don't take it for granted that
> this is an orderly society; don't mesmerize yourself with words. Whether
> here in Europe, in America or Russia, the world is in a process of decay. If
> you see the decay, you have a challenge: you are challenged to find a way of
> solving this urgent problem. And how you respond to the challenge is
> important, is it not? If you respond as a Hindu or a Buddhist, a Christian
> or a communist, then your response is very limited - which is no response at
> all. You can respond fully, adequately only if there is no fear in you, only
> if you don't think as a Hindu, a communist or a capitalist, but as a total
> human being who is trying to solve this problem; and you cannot solve it
> unless you yourself are in revolt against the whole thing, against the
> ambitious acquisitiveness on which society is based. When you yourself are
> not ambitious, not acquisitive, not clinging to your own security - only
> then can you respond to the challenge and create a new world.

> Questioner: To revolt, to learn, to love - are these three separate
> processes, or are they simultaneous?

> Krishnamurti: Of course they are not three separate processes; it is a
> unitary process. You see, it is very important to find out what the question
> means. This question is based on theory, not on experience; it is merely
> verbal, intellectual, therefore it has no validity. A man who is fearless,
> who is really in revolt, struggling to find out what it means to learn, to
> love - such a man does not ask if it is one process or three. We are so
> clever with words, and we think that by offering explanations we have solved
> the problem.

> Do you know what it means to learn? When you are really learning you are
> learning throughout your life and there is no one special teacher to learn
> from. Then everything teaches you - a dead leaf, a bird in flight, a smell,
> a tear, the rich and the poor, those who are crying, the smile of a woman,
> the haughtiness of a man. You learn from everything, therefore there is no
> guide, no philosopher, no guru. Life itself is your teacher, and you are in
> a state of constant learning.

> Questioner: It is true that society is based on acquisitiveness and
> ambition; but if we had no ambition would we not decay?

> Krishnamurti: This is really a very important question, and it needs great
> attention.

> Do you know what attention is? Let us find out. In a class room, when you
> stare out of the window or pull somebody's hair, the teacher tells you to
> pay attention. Which means what? That you are not interested in what you are
> studying and so the teacher compels you to pay attention - which is not
> attention at all. Attention comes when you are deeply interested in
> something, for then you love to find out all about it; then your whole mind,
> your whole being is there. Similarly, the moment you see that this question
> - if we had no ambition, would we not decay? - is really very important, you
> are interested and want to find out the truth of the matter.

> Now, is not the ambitious man destroying himself? That is the first thing to
> find out, not to ask whether ambition is right or wrong. Look around you,
> observe all the people who are ambitious. What happens when you are
> ambitious? You are thinking about yourself, are you not? You are cruel, you
> push other people aside because you are trying to fulfil your ambition,
> trying to become a big man, thereby creating in society the conflict between
> those who are succeeding and those who are falling behind. There is a
> constant battle between you and the others who are also after what you want;
> and is this conflict productive of creative living? Do you understand, or is
> this too difficult?

> Are you ambitious when you love to do something for its own sake? When you
> are doing something with your whole being, not because you want to get
> somewhere, or have more profit, or greater results, but simply because you
> love to do it - in that there is no ambition, is there? In that there is no
> competition; you are not struggling with anyone for first place. And should
> not education help you to find out what you really love to do so that from
> the beginning to the end of your life you are working at something which you
> feel is worth while and which for you has deep significance? Otherwise, for
> the rest of your days, you will be miserable. Not knowing what you really
> want to do, your mind falls into a routine in which there is only boredom,
> decay and death. That is why it is very important to find out while you are
> young what it is you really love to do; and this is the only way to create a
> new society.

> Questioner: In India, as in most other countries, education is being
> controlled by the government. Under such circumstances is it possible to
> carry out an experiment of the kind you describe?

> Krishnamurti: If there were no government help, would it be possible for a
> school of this kind to survive? That is what this gentleman is asking. He
> sees everything throughout the world becoming more and more controlled by
> governments, by politicians, by people in authority who want to shape our
> minds and hearts, who want us to think in a certain way. Whether in Russia
> or in any other country, the tendency is towards government control of
> education; and this gentleman asks whether it is possible for a school of
> the kind I am talking about to come into being without government aid.

> Now, what do you say? You know, if you think something is important, really
> worth while, you give your heart to it irrespective of governments and the
> edicts of society - and then it will succeed. But most of us do not give our
> hearts to anything, and that is why we put this sort of question. If you and
> I feel vitally that a new world can be brought into being, when each one of
> us is in complete revolt inwardly, psychologically, spiritually - then we
> shall give our hearts, our minds, our bodies towards creating a school where
> there is no such thing as fear with all its implications.

> Sir, anything truly revolutionary is created by a few who see what is true
> and are willing to live according to that truth; but to discover what is
> true demands freedom from tradition, which means freedom from all fears.

------
Simulacra
Wow, this sounds so much like China. In college I had a professor who obsessed
over a conundrum: India, the world's largest democracy, is also its poorest.
Why? He believed it was due to caste, religion, and education. I wonder if
India is continually looking east and trying to duplicate some of the Chinese
rise to power.

~~~
modi15
If America would have been poor, he would have blamed racism, guns and
ignorance for the same.

