
Where will ‘garage orphans’ charge electric cars? - throw0101a
https://www.theglobeandmail.com/drive/mobility/article-where-will-garage-orphans-charge-electric-cars-if-they-have-to-park/
======
wffurr
Yet another reason the real answer to the climate crisis isn't EVs - it's
public transit, bicycles, e-bikes, scooters, e-scooters, walking, etc. All
these other modes are much lower impact on the environment than purchasing and
operating an EV, much less an ICE.

~~~
ColanR
It's been entertaining to read the discussions (below) about how to make this
practical. So far, it looks like the only way to make this work is to a) live
in a city, or rebuild your suburbia into a city, and b) construct your entire
life around riding that bike - choose a job with a tolerant boss, spend extra
hours every day showering and changing clothes after biking, etc.

I'd rather drive an air-conditioned car, sit in traffic for that hour or two,
and enjoy my private backyard (however small it may be).

~~~
zanny
Instead of constructing your life around a bike you construct it around a car.
You can't commute to work any other way, if it breaks down you are bound to
mostly Uber as a backup strategy to get anywhere.

Except those car-centric environments you live and work in are a more
effective gate to keep the poor out than the grandest gated community. Almost
no where else on the planet is the idea of a city being a tiny urban core
surrounded by hundreds of miles of single family houses in spiraling one lane
streets of sprawl the norm. Its a purely American fixation on centering all
human activity around cars. And for your benefit, even - the world would be
alight in a raging inferno if we ever tried to globally house everyone in
quarter acre single family houses with 4 hour single-occupancy car commutes
every day.

~~~
ColanR
> construct it around a car

I don't, actually - it's that a car is far more useful than a bike. I drive 25
minutes to work; I haul (5 bike-ride-loads of) groceries several miles to my
house; I visit friends anywhere from 1-5 hours away; I casually drive into the
city and back. Even if I felt like riding 10 miles each way, rain or shine, or
using public transit, it takes _so much less time_ to drive my car, and I have
to either find multiple clever solutions to each of the other activities I use
the car for, or _just go without_.

My car gives me freedom from limitations; bicycle dependency only adds to
them. To use a bike instead of a car, I have to fundamentally adjust my life,
in every way for the worse.

~~~
esoterica
You don’t seem to able to wrap your ahead around the fact that driving appears
to give you more freedoms only because you live in a city that was designed
around cars, not because cars are inherently faster or more convenient. The
convenience of the car is an artifact of city planning decisions, not a
universal truth.

Example: do you realize how preposterous the idea of driving several miles to
get groceries is to someone who lives in a real city? If I want to get
groceries I walk to the grocery store two blocks away. If I don’t like that
grocery store I walk to the other one four blocks away. Or the other other one
five blocks away. It takes me less time to walk to the grocery store than it
takes you to drive to yours. The counterfactual to a 10 mile drive is not a 10
mile public transit ride, because without car-induced sprawl everything would
be much closer and you would have to travel much shorter distances to have
access to the same amenities and see your friends.

Public transit is also not slower than driving in a city with proper transit.
I don’t own a car and almost every single journey I take is either short
enough to walk, or faster on transit than in a car. It takes me 10 minutes to
get to work on the train, the same drive would take half an hour due to
traffic.

~~~
ColanR
> driving appears to give you more freedoms only because you live in a city

I don't live in a city, just like half the population of the US. You assumed
that, and now the rest of what you wrote is irrelevant.

~~~
justincormack
80% of the US population lives in a city.

~~~
UncleMeat
That is nowhere close to true, unless you are counting suburbs as cities.

------
thehappypm
This stopped me from buying a Tesla with my most recent car purchase. I live
in a 100 year old apartment in Boston that has 0 parking spots for over 100
units. My wife and I share a car, mostly for weekend adventuring, so we rent a
spot in a dude's backyard down the block from us. It works well for us, much
more convenient than the rat race of street parking. But it was hard to
imagine that life with a Tesla. I could probably negotiate that I could plug
it into an outlet connected to the guy's house, but I'd only get a slow
trickle charge, and it's an odd request he could easily reject. I could rent
in a garage with chargers, but there are none near my apartment, and it would
also be much more expensive. The thought of only being able to charge at
Superchargers was a big turnoff.

~~~
chrisseaton
> I live in a 100 year old apartment

Keeping in mind '100 years old' sounds dramatic but is now as recent as 1919,
which doesn't sound that old when you write it out! That's about a fifth of
the housing stock in the UK I believe. Obviously, almost none of these houses
have garages.

I wonder if local governments could install plugs under little hatches like
they use for stop cocks all the way down residential roads.

[https://stock.adobe.com/be_en/images/blue-painted-water-
stop...](https://stock.adobe.com/be_en/images/blue-painted-water-stopcock-
valve-cover-found-in-the-pavement-on-the-street/122551084)

~~~
clouddrover
London is putting charging points in street lamps:

[https://www.electrive.com/2018/08/21/char-gy-new-player-
on-l...](https://www.electrive.com/2018/08/21/char-gy-new-player-on-london-
lamp-post-charging-scene/)

~~~
fyfy18
European countries have a much easier time than the US in this regard due to
220V mains voltage. Even with a standard outlet you can fully recharge a Tesla
overnight.

~~~
esotericn
> Even with a standard outlet you can fully recharge a Tesla overnight.

Nah. 230V 10A is about 2kW and 15A about 3kW.

More realistically it's 24h for a 20-80% charge.

That said, 2kW is a 10kmh charge, so "overnight" (let's say 12 hours) you can
do a 60km commute from a regular socket.

~~~
Symbiote
It's at least fairly cheap to install a standard industrial outlet (single
phase, or three phase if the house supply has it -- this varies in Europe).
That looks to be what older/cheaper street lamp installations have -- a
domestic outlet isn't appropriate for outdoor use anyway.

That gets 7kW or more.

From [https://www.spiritenergy.co.uk/kb-ev-understanding-
electric-...](https://www.spiritenergy.co.uk/kb-ev-understanding-electric-car-
charging) :

> If you have a standard domestic single phase (230V) supply, you won't be
> able to achieve a charging rate of more than 7.4kW. Even with a standard
> commercial 3 phase connection, the power rating for AC charging is limited
> to 22kW.

22kW is plenty, and e.g. my apartment in Denmark has a three-phase 40A supply,
so houses surely have more than this.

------
gok
I live in a high rise apartment with three shared level 2 chargers in the
garage. I would say there are ~10 EVs in the building and sharing the chargers
has never been an issue. It's like shared laundry; you really only need it
once a week or so for a few hours. Once it's easy to make people pay for
electricity, adding lots of chargers will be a no-brainer for garage owners.

~~~
neogodless
Laundry. That just might be the perfect example. What a huge division of
experience between the wealthy and the less wealthy.

Most homeowners have laundry in their home. Starting and switching loads is a
few minutes, and the rest of their time is still free. Many high-end
apartments have laundry within a short walk from each residence. It's largely
the same experience. But then those with less ability to afford "nice" housing
often have to use shared public laundromats that are not as close to home. You
probably plan a trip once a week or two, and it takes you several hours. If
you're lucky, it's close to other errands, but since you've got your hands
full with your laundry, it's not like you can really combine it with grocery
shopping.

In a future where everyone drives EVs, the wealthier will have higher range
vehicles, easy access to super fast chargers, and even chargers in their home
or luxury apartment. But the poor, with lower range vehicles, will just have
to visit a mediocre public charger, and hope they can make that time useful,
or read a newspaper while they wait. They'll have to be more thoughtful about
how they use their car because going an extra 20 miles for some unexpected
errand might screw up their schedule and send them to the public charger where
they can waste a half an hour of precious time waiting in line and getting a
partial charge.

~~~
freeflight
> Laundry. That just might be the perfect example. What a huge division of
> experience between the wealthy and the less wealthy.

While a bit off-topic: I never understood why a lack of washing machines in
flats is such a huge issue in some countries.

In Germany, most flats come with a connector for your own washing machine,
those that don't have on inside the flat often have them in the basement,
where every party living in the house just adds their washing machine.

Public laundromats do exist, but from what I can gather they are quite
underutilized because there's barely any demand.

Does anybody happen to know why these vast differences in "washing machine
availability" exist in other countries? Is it really that much more expensive
to lay the water/wastewater lines for washing machines inside the flats?
Doesn't all that just plug into the same plumbing that's already there?

~~~
esotericn
Germany is usually used as an example of good tenants' rights, though. I've
never lived there but my understanding is that there's nothing wrong with
renting, well off people might do it too, and so it's comfortable.

Apartment living mixed with bad tenants rights is a recipe for disaster
because the majority of people then end up basically living in a minimum
standard hellhole that no-one cares about. See: UK private rental sector.

~~~
freeflight
I checked if it's something that's required by tenants law, but from what I
could gather nothing like a "tenants right to a washing machine in their
house/flat" exists in Germany.

And it's not like the situation is that perfect either, these past years rents
have been exploding in most places with any economic development. Government
response has been slow to non-existent on the issue.

~~~
esotericn
It doesn't have to be legally enshrined for the general attitude to help the
situation, though.

A bit like how buses in the US, or at least the parts I've visited, seem to be
a shitfest, because they're only a thing poor people use, whereas in Europe
they're often a lot better not due to legislation per se.

------
Johnny555
I own a condo with a garage, yet I can't put in a charge station. I need to
convince most of my neighbors to have the HOA do it.

The garage is a separate shared structure and is only wired for lighting and
the electric garage door. The only way they could put in EV chargers would be
to trench though 30 feet of asphalt from the electrical vault (assuming that
vault has sufficient capacity), then wire up the garage. I'm not sure how
metering would work in that case, I assume that'd have to put in meter boxes
for each resident.

Several people have tried, but couldn't get interest from more than a handful
of residents, and the cost to do the initial work is too much for one person
to bear.

~~~
matthewdgreen
I had to trench about thirty feet to install a charger in my back alley. It
was expensive (about $1500) but I looked at it as a long-term investment that
would pay off over a decade. If I could have shared that cost with, say, 10
neighbors it would have been pretty modest. My state also has a reimbursement
program that will cover a portion of the installation costs. These capital
costs are problematic but not really devastating. Even if nobody wants to use
taxpayer funds, cities/utilities could propose investment programs with
payback done via a small extra fee charged to electric usage over a few years.

~~~
Johnny555
The estimate was about 10X more than that -- I'm not sure what made it so
expensive, maybe because the wiring had to be sized to handle all 30 units,
the HOA wouldn't let it be built to handle just the few people that wanted an
EV charger today. And there was some sort of upgrade that had to be made to
the underground electrical vault.

~~~
matthewdgreen
A $15,000 loan, at 5% interest, works out to about $159/month over a decade.
Divide that by ten neighbors, it's about $16/month per user to charge --
excluding the cost of energy. This isn't _nothing_ , but it's a reasonable
enough price if you have 10 people in the facility who are interested.
Obviously the theory and practice are very different things, but as barriers
go this one seems surmountable. Particularly given the fact that electric car
charging is eventually going to be more and more popular/valuable to
purchasers or renters. In short, this is a very tiny fraction of the price of
a new roof.

------
stcredzero
I used to run an extension cord out of my 2nd floor window, but I wasn't
parking on the street. My space was off the driveway, behind a fence and a
gate, but only about 12 feet from the curb.

More recently, I had been parking an electric car in my apartment's lot, and
running an extension cord from the exercise room, out to the car. Then the
apartment decided to close off those outlets.

In both cases, the car's battery was only 24Kwh. With 110 volts, it took about
18 hours to fully charge. With a battery the size of a Tesla, that charging
rate is going to take all week.

~~~
Finnucane
There's a guy with a Tesla around the corner from me, who does this (cable out
the 2nd floor window), and he does park on the street. Not sure what he does
if he can't get a space close enough. (A neighborhood of row houses with
little off-street parking)

I think the car makers have to accelerate integrating solar charging into
their cars. You probably wouldn't get 100% of your charge that way, but you
could get enough to substantially reduce dependence on the grid.

~~~
duskwuff
> I think the car makers have to accelerate integrating solar charging into
> their cars.

Nah. Solar on cars is a dead-end -- even with perfectly efficient solar
panels, a clear sky, and the sun at the zenith, the most power you can
possibly get is 1.3 kW/m² (cf. [1]). I don't know exactly how large of a solar
panel you could put on a car, but even with a _huge_ 5 m² panel, you'd still
be looking at over 12 hours (i.e, multiple days of charging) to charge a
Tesla's 85 kWh battery. With realistic panel efficiency and sun conditions,
it'd take even longer.

[1]:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_constant](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_constant)

~~~
NullPrefix
> over 12 hours (i.e, multiple days of charging) to charge a Tesla's 85 kWh
> battery.

The tone is somewhat pessimistic.

Full charge every two-to-three days for a range of ... what is it? 265 miles?
Effectively untethered car if you only need 50 miles daily.

~~~
duskwuff
Again, keep in mind my numbers are assuming a large, perfectly efficient solar
panel under ideal conditions. Realistic numbers will be much worse. For
example, most commercially available solar panels are 20-25% efficient.

~~~
NullPrefix
1.3kW/m^2 * 20% efficiency = 260w/m^2

260w/m^2 * 5m^2 = 1.3kW

1.3kW * 4 hours daily sun = 5.2kW/day

265 miles range / 85kW full charge capacity = 3.1 miles/kW

5.2kW/day * 3.1 miles/kW = 16.12 miles / day

Still sounds too good, what did I miss?

~~~
txcwpalpha
16.12 miles a day is not going to cut it. In your previous comment you
suggested 50 miles a day. In various studies, Americans drive >30 miles a day.

16 miles would hardly even cover most American's one-way commute, let alone
any other errands or trips.

~~~
NullPrefix
>you suggested 50 miles a day

/s/suggested/calculated using data provided by parent comment/

~~~
txcwpalpha
Nobody in the entire comment chain brought up distance except for you, which
you kicked off by suggesting 50 miles daily usage.

Regardless, even your drastically lower 16 miles a day isn't going to satisfy
the needs of the average driver.

------
oh_hello
I always thought this was a big problem for EVs, but recently came to think
nightly charging might not matter so much for these drivers. If an urban
apartment dweller has an EV with 200+ miles of range, can't a public fast
charger be used once or twice a week instead? I lived in an apartment with a
~200 mile range ICE car and filled it less than once a week.

~~~
jedberg
Filling your car at the gas station is a five minute stop on the way home.
Filing your electric car is at least an hour if you have a DC fast charger and
that gets you only 80% full. To get totally full, it would take a multi-hour
stop.

~~~
kennywinker
Sure. If your commute is 15% of your range, you’d be able to charge once a
week. I’m pretty sure most people could work out a multi-hour stopover near a
charging station into their week. Put them near a restaurant, arts, or
shopping district and bingo problem solved.

~~~
ghaff
Near where I live, there's actually one in the parking lot of the almost
derelict shopping mall. But that's also right next door to a particularly busy
grocery store. There are usually vehicles in it and this is in an area (Mass)
that doesn't have a lot of Teslas generally and certainly not in the somewhat
rundown small city this store is on the outskirts of.

------
jillesvangurp
Fully Charged recently ran an interesting panel discussion that they put
online yesterday with a few vehicle to grid experts:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bkh33KjF3Gc&t=0s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bkh33KjF3Gc&t=0s)

One interesting thing with vehicle to grid is that EV battery capacity is
becoming a valuable commodity. It's valuable to EV owners because they can
sell back electricity to the grid and manage when they charge using either
solar or simply low rate night time energy from the grid. This saves them cost
and some cases makes a profit. It's valuable to grid owners because they can
serve peak demand from plugged in EVs and dump access clean energy back into
them so they can stay on top of peaks in demand and supply. It's even
attractive to battery leasing companies or EV car companies responsible for
managing the batteries because keeping them fully charged all the time when
they are not in use is actually not that great for battery life. Some car
manufacturers are already experimenting with battery warranty and vehicle to
grid usage in order to take away the concerns about wearing out the battery.

So, vehicle to grid may be used to address exactly this issue. It's a
complicated topic of course but providing charging points to garage orphans
could be a profitable business. There are all sorts of interesting things
happening around this.

~~~
dmix
Assuming everyone's selling it back I'd imagine there have to be easily
swappable batteries then to deal with the increased wear. At least so it's not
a big operation for the dealer. I wonder how much more difficult this would
make car designs...

~~~
jillesvangurp
They covered this in the panel discussion. In short, some car manufacturers
seem willing to allow this under their normal battery warranty (i.e. they
expect this to be not much of an issue) to minimize risk for the user and take
away concerns around this. Some manufacturers are already building inverters
into the cars to facilitate vehicle to grid (and vehicle to vehicle even).
Most manufacturers (e.g. VW, Renault) expect this to be common in a few years
and are looking to standardize how this works.

Swapping batteries is of course covered by existing warranties and obviously
this is already technically doable as part of normal car service. So, no
special new design is needed for this. I imagine this typically involves
unplugging a bunch of cables, loosening a few bolts, etc. Doesn't sound like
rocket science. In any case, your base assumption that this becomes a regular
thing for EV owners is probably simply wrong. It's rare now and it will
probably not become a lot more common. EV batteries are pretty good.

------
toomuchtodo
Several states have laws that require apartment building and condo managers to
allow tenants/owners to install EV chargers (at their own cost). I expect this
trend to continue slowly across the US.

If you can't charge at home, public charging is going to continue to expand
rapidly (as electricity is everywhere). It'll just take some time, and effort
on the part of local citizens and policy makers.

If you own an EV, get involved! Advocate for home, workplace, and public
charging stations where you frequent.

~~~
stcredzero
_Several states have laws that require apartment building and condo managers
to allow tenants /owners to install EV chargers (at their own cost)._

Which states?

~~~
tdiggity
California for Condo/Townhome owners. However, in my experience, it didn't
help. I had a condo with a shared garage, and the HOA said I had to pay for
not just a line from the electrical room to my parking spot, but also the
equipment/piping to scale it to any of the other parking spots. What would
have been a $2000 installation turned into much more. My point being, even
though there are laws that allow you to do this, there are ways they can make
it out of reach if they want to.

~~~
ecpottinger
Sounds like your HOA needs a visit from your lawyer. Making pay for all costs
for your needs is one thing, demanding you pay for costs for everyone else is
another.

Bet if you did pay for it all, the HOA would not credit you for any other BEV
owner you attracted and tapped into the power lines.

Sounds like they want the benefits but none of the costs.

~~~
tdiggity
Yea, exactly. The bill leaves this part of it in a grey area. What are
"reasonable" costs that an HOA can impose? Getting a lawyer involved would
have been very costly. I eventually sold the stupid place and moved on.

------
bduerst
I saw an interesting pitch from _Sparkcharge_ [1] at an incubator event, which
is deliverable super charger batteries.

If it scales, it would essentially allow people to order charging on the fly,
get it delivered/hooked up by an Uber driver, and then just leave it for
pickup in the lot they parked in. This is obviously only an urban or suburban
solution, but could help with some of the issues.

[1] [https://sparkcharge.io/](https://sparkcharge.io/)

------
jaclaz
Besides garage orphans, also those with self standing homes and a garage will
have (or become) a problem.

Say that in you street that are 50 single family homes connected to a same
cabin/transformer.

The electric infrastructure powering them (lines, transformer, etc.) has been
dimensioned to power them at their average current power consumption rate +
something to take care of peaks + something more to take care of exceptions
(like - say - a constructions site for the renovation of one of the homes).

Now the existing infrastructure will have no issue with your single electric
car charging at night, and probably with that of your neighboor on the left
and that of your neighbour on the right, but the moment a given number of
families will have an electic car, each of them will try to use 5 kW of
additional power more or less at the same time.

That is a lot of "juice" and it sums up quickly.

I believe (correct me if you have better data) that in the US the
infrastructure is generally dimensioned[1] for something like 6 or 8 kW per
unit, so, adding to each house some "constant" 5 kW for the charging (even if
only at night) is almost using all the capability of the infrastructure and
possible peaks might create issues.

[1] when estimating the need of a line the usual formula is roughly between

1/3 max power x 1.20

and

1/2 max power x 1.10

so assuming the peak is 15 kW, that would be between 15/3 kW x 1.20 = 6 kW and
15/2 kW x 1.10= 8.25 kW

------
tbabb
The "businesses renting out their lots after hours" is an interesting model,
though in high-density areas it's not clear that this would be enough, and
might not be well co-located with residential demand.

City-owned public infrastructure (i.e. lamppost charging) makes a lot of sense
too, but infrastructure changes are slow and expensive, and will certainly lag
far behind demand. It might be a way for municipalities to earn revenue,
though.

One could also imagine how much self-driving might help this: The car could
pilot itself to a nearby charging station/lot without any inconvenience to the
owner. But we are not there yet with capability, so this remains a near-term
problem.

------
rootusrootus
Why does everyone need a place to charge at home? Sure, it is one of the big
advantages of an EV, but not everyone can take advantage of it. If the car has
a 300-400 mile range, then charge it like you fuel up a gas-powered car. Takes
a little bit longer, but that will improve over time.

~~~
dmitrygr
A little longer? What am I going to do at a gas station for an hour? I am
already bored when I am there for 3 minutes with an ICE car...

~~~
gist
Exactly. I simply don't get this. All of that effort when it's (for lack of a
better way to put it) 'not ready for prime time'. Other comments include
running an electric extension cord out the window and other hacks. A cord out
the window be serious.

Imagine for a second of what compensating good could be done for the world if
people put the same time, thought or effort into something else with more
immediate (and urgent payback).

~~~
RandallBrown
It's not any extra effort to plug your car in at the grocery store while
you're shopping. In fact, it's often _less_ effort because the electric
charging spots are often closer to the doors.

Then you don't have to make an extra stop or trip just for gas. It sounds
_way_ better than the current situation with gas.

~~~
gist
Extra effort? You have the anxiety of wondering if the spot will be open or
not. Also as the method becomes more popular it would make sense that the
spots will not be increased immediately and therefore will not be open. And of
course the grocery store is only one place you go and how many people go there
regularly enough to use it for charging and how many spots do they have or
will have?

> It sounds way better than the current situation with gas.

Seriously? Where do you live and where would you get gas? This is a non issue
for most people.

~~~
RandallBrown
My experience today is that there are almost always open EV charging spots at
places that have them. No anxiety needed.

------
nategri
Currently living this lifestyle. Luckily there's a set of level 2 chargers in
a nearby parking garage that don't see heavy use, so I just charge there.

But I still have to pay a premium, and walk half a mile there and back, so
it's not exactly as hassle free as just plugging in when I get home. Also need
to plan ahead significantly if I'm driving anywhere far.

------
goldcd
I'd seen the idea of using street-furniture, such as lamp-posts - but can't
help seeing visions of coils of cable looping all over the pavement/sidewalk
(in the UK at least, lamp posts tend not to be on the road side of the
pavement). Plus, if this isn't new-build, whatever's powering those lamps
isn't going to charge your car. Well.. it might charge one or two, but once
you've got 20 cars, all wanting to be charged overnight..

If you're going to have to lay new lines, then cheapest approach is surely to
just put cable in the gutter, and then protect it with something similar to
those rubber speed-bumps you can bolt into the ground. Downside is the low
profile prevents great big connectors/supply units - but would be fine for the
equivalent of the domestic-plug....

...I'm meandering now, but wonder if you could retro-fit drain covers to
contain chargers...

~~~
mattlutze
In Stuttgart, Germany, Daimler piloted a rent-by-the-minute electric car
program (which is proliferating with normal petrol cars elsewhere, called
Car2Go). The Smart ForTwos that they use are all electric, and the cable is
bolted into the trunk of the car, so it takes its cable with it. The charging
unit and car's "fuel port" are both receptive sides of the connection, and
both the car and the charging station (the city installed them so anyone with
the right cables can use them) has a lock that keeps the cable from getting
removed when it's in use.

Works pretty well and this sort of model would likely work fine, with you
keeping your cable yourself.

~~~
gsk22
Car2Go used to operate in my US city, but they pulled out a couple years ago
under the guise of "an onerous new tax burden" (despite no new taxes being
passed). I think the real issue was they were just plain expensive -- barely
cheaper than an Uber, and way less comfortable.

Other rent-by-time companies like ZipCar are similarly expensive. I'm not
convinced that business model works, at least the ways I've seen it
implemented.

~~~
mattlutze
Car2Go works here that you don't have to leave or pick them up from designated
spots -- they have an agreement with each city to allow general parking, even
in neighborhood zones.

Not sure if it was the same in your city, I'm used to ZipCars having special
spots which is a little less convenient.

It's a good alternative to public transport when you need to cross a city and
transfers would be annoying.

------
mattlondon
It is certainly holding me back at the moment. I have allocated off-street
parking under my apartment that is actually owned by us as part of the lease,
but I doubt the building management will let me install a charger, and I don't
think the law in the UK means I can force them to let me.

In London there are a few public chargers dotted around, but they are fairly
infrequent. I don't have any data but it feels like there are perhaps 2 public
on-street chargers for perhaps every 10 to 20 residential streets.

The nearest one to me is about a 15-20 minute walk away, and if I get there
and it is full or broken, then what? Try the next charger that is 30-40
minutes walk away?! The contention ratio of homes to chargers is insane - it
must be in the 500-1000:1 level (guessing)

There are however lampposts _everywhere_. There is some talk of adding
charging points to lampposts but I think there are only very small-scale
trials at the moment. If I could rely on every lamppost also being a charger
then I'd buy an EV literally today.

Sadly, right now it feels like PHEVs are a more sensible option until public
infrastructure catches up.

~~~
jasoncartwright
Lampposts is exactly how I charge whilst not having off-street parking, in
central London. The council converted all the street lights to LEDs, meaning
there is excess electricity delivered. So they put plugs on the posts. Works
brilliantly. [https://imgur.com/a/I5AtwJk](https://imgur.com/a/I5AtwJk)
[https://www.ubitricity.com/](https://www.ubitricity.com/)

~~~
throw0101a
Fully Charged did an episode on this:

* [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rKaEhBjt1ls](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rKaEhBjt1ls)

However, in many cities the posts are not in the sidewalk, but on people's
properties, so as to allow clearer pedestrian paths. This is generally true in
Toronto (where the story is written), especially on residential side-streets.

~~~
ed312
"clearer pedestrian paths" seems like a really bad trade-off for putting
public infrastructure on private property (and all the right of way / access
issues involved). I wonder if, since the wiring is clearly there, something
on-sidewalk could be added (something parking meter-ish).

~~~
throw0101a
This has probably already been taken care of when the land went from public to
private ownership I'm sure there various clauses and agreements in place via
various by-laws and such.

A pretty typical street in the older parts of my city (use Street View):

* [https://www.google.com/maps/place/50+Westminster+Ave,+Toront...](https://www.google.com/maps/place/50+Westminster+Ave,+Toronto,+ON/)

Putting poles in the sidewalk would be a non-starter and anyone suggesting it
would be laughed out of the room.

------
mast
A few years ago I lived in a fairly northern Canadian city. Most people had
block heaters installed in their cars and plugged them in when the car would
be sitting in the cold for more than a few hours. Otherwise, the car would be
too cold to start. Most companies and apartment buildings had outlets
installed in their parking lots, and at home people just ran extension cords.

~~~
koolba
You don’t even have to go particularly north to see plug in block heaters.
Pretty sure I’ve seen them as far “south” as Toronto. Guess they’re all ready
for the EV generation.

~~~
aplc0r
You can still find them even in the suburbs of Minneapolis, though I haven't
personally seen anyone use them in years.

------
_ph_
There need to be more chargers at places where people park their cars when
they are not at home. That is parking lots at the work place and parking lots
of malls and supermarkets. Parking at work would need little more than a
standard plug, assuming you are 8+ hours at work. At malls and supermarkets,
you would have medium-fast chargers, as you are parking for 1-2 hours. And
with the lastest gen fast-chargers, a recharge can be done in as little as
20-30 minutes, so having a good coffee store with WIFI along with the charging
stations (no bad smells at charging stations) should mostly solve the problem
for an occasional charge and wait.

------
bkohlmann
Not exactly pertinent to "garage orphans," but i was struck by the picture
featured in the article and the design choice of how electric chargers look.

They seem to be an exact replica of a traditional gas nozzle. Striking to me
how initial conditions matter for human perception and adoption. While EV is
an entirely new technology and thus could be built from a cleanslate, the
easiest way to drive adoption was to shape it as close to the existing
solution as possible - which was specifically designed to transmit a liquid.
Clearly it works - but an important design lesson for me!

~~~
lonelappde
Electricity and gasoline both travel through tubes, and both are dangerous if
they breach insulation.

Handles are convenient for people with hands.

~~~
Theodores
Quite a lot of senior citizens go for EV cars - they are not as fit and strong
as your average HN reader (who seem to be the only other demographic buying
EV).

So there needs to be consideration for them. Apparently it is really quite
hard work plugging in if you are in the twilight years with health
considerations. The more you need the mobility solution an EV offers the more
likely it is that you are going to struggle putting that big charging cable in
to your Nissan Leaf.

------
madcaptenor
One guy I used to work with drove a Nissan Leaf, and he ran an extension cord
from his car through the office front door and charged at work. I'm not sure
if he was a garage orphan or just cheap.

------
imposterr
To me, this seems like a transient problem. As battery technology improves, we
may be able to move back towards a "gas station" model for charging.
BMW/Porsche already has a charging solution that can do 100 km in 8 minutes
[1].

[1] [https://www.extremetech.com/extreme/282364-bmw-porsche-
demo-...](https://www.extremetech.com/extreme/282364-bmw-porsche-demo-super-
fast-electric-car-charger)

~~~
mattlutze
If there was no switching time, that'd be 7.5 cars / hour for a potentially
every-other- or every-third-day quick charge, and the high voltage required
does reduce battery life (I think).

I'd be curious to know how long gas stations plan on someone staying at a
stall for a full fuel up, to know what sort of capacity in an area would need
to be replaced or added.

Part of the benefit of EVs is that fueling points don't require all of the
fluids storage and safety; putting in transformers can be easier and allow
fitting charging points to many more places a car gets parked. But it'll still
be an interesting issue if an optimum charge takes 20-45 minutes.

------
jaclaz
Besides garage orphans, also those with self standing homes and a garage will
have (or become) a problem.

Say that in you street that are 50 single family homes connected to a same
cabin/transformer.

The electric infrastructure powering them (lines, transformer, etc.) has been
dimensioned to power them at their average current power consumption rate +
something to take care of peaks + something more to take care of eceptions
(like - say - a constructions site for the renovation of one of the homes).

Now the existing infrastructure will have no issue with your single electric
car charging at night, and probably with that of your neighboor on the left
and that of your neighbour on the right, but the moment a given number of
families will have an electic car, each of them will try to use 5 kW of
additional power more or less at the same time.

That is a lot of "juice" and it sums up quickly.

I believe (correct me if you have better data) that in the US the
infrastructure is generally dimensioned for something like 6 or 7 kW per unit,
so, adding to each house some "constant" 5 kW (even if only at night) is
almost using all the capability of the infrastructure.

~~~
rconti
My Model 3 charges at ~240v/48a, which is around 11kW.

At peak times in our house, say, heat on, lights on, TV on, cooking, doing
laundry, we pull perhaps 3kW. Our house is pretty efficient; gas appliances,
LED lights, no air conditioning, etc.

The car charges after 9pm, but that's just because our rate drops then. If
midnight was even cheaper, it would charge then. We don't charge every day,
but if we did, it would take perhaps 1 hour. And this is for a car we drive
18,000 miles on in its first year.

3-4x the demand of a 'normal' household is not nothing, but it's not insane,
either. Considering EVs don't need to charge every day, or every hour of every
night, it's not that tricky to see the aggregate load as fairly similar to
peak afternoon/evening hours in your average suburb as people return home from
work.

To be sure, if everyone started charging their EVs at 6pm, we might have a
problem. Likewise, if everyone had an EV and they all clicked on at midnight,
we might have a problem. But the load on the grid is not that huge from an
instantaneous perspective, and can be managed by variable pricing and/or some
kind of grid scheduling tech.

~~~
jgust
I imagine a world where the electricity grid is intelligent enough to have a
"conversation" with appliances to efficiently spread load across the day, more
accurately plan capacity, and do it at a lower cost to consumers and the
environment.

~~~
pi-rat
That's happening here, my power company has a GraphQL API[1] where I can read
my current consumption (5 second resolution), they also offer up the current
price, including an indicator of the price level compared to how they see the
rest of the day (CHEAP, NORMAL, EXPENSIVE).

All houses/apartments in Norway got new smart power meters the last couple of
years. They standardized on a data interface (a bus you can connect to using a
RJ45 plug), so you can access your own data if you don't want to go via your
power companies API.

There are EV chargers[2] and other appliances (Heat pumps/ACs) that can react
to this price indicator, charging your car when power is cheapest.

It will also load balance based on how much the rest of your house is using,
they're moving towards an "wattage" fee here, to avoid massive loads at peak
hours. If you get near the limit, the car charger can slow down.

Here's some images of what their app gives me[3].

It's easy to pull their data into home automation systems, here's mine[4].

You can do pretty smart stuff like: Charge my car when it's cheap, but it must
be ready by 07:00.

[1]: [https://developer.tibber.com/docs/guides/calling-
api](https://developer.tibber.com/docs/guides/calling-api)

[2]:
[https://norge.tibber.com/products/easee/](https://norge.tibber.com/products/easee/)

[3]: [https://imgur.com/a/RYYqcjY](https://imgur.com/a/RYYqcjY)

[4]: [https://imgur.com/a/8ef0jck](https://imgur.com/a/8ef0jck)

~~~
rconti
Very cool! I seem to recall first reading about such plans as early as the
90s. It almost certainly wouldn't be allowed most places in the US because
regulatory schemes always need approval to change, and it would be considered
suspicious and an attempt to hide 'true' costs from the consumer (eg, the
power provider can just change the rate _any time they want_ , it will hurt
poor people who can't afford these smart appliances, etc etc. Too bad.

~~~
pi-rat
In our case the power provider, the to the house line owner and the producer
are all separate. My provides buys from the cheapest renewable offered up on
NordPool. My fee to the provider is fixed (39 NOK per month). They don't get a
cut of the cost per kwh to the producer. If one producer raise their price,
they'll just be outbid. If they all raise their prices too much their
reservoars will overflow. I pay the market price to the producer from the spot
market + some percentage tax/fees to the government + line owner, and a flat
fee to the provider.

Makes it hard to get scammed by the power companies/providers I think.

You'll get the current power source from their API or App. ATM I'm getting
100% hydro from "Kvitingen Kraftverk"[1], but that will probably change during
the day.

[1]: [https://imgur.com/a/2uRhsZ2](https://imgur.com/a/2uRhsZ2) or
[https://imgur.com/a/oXeccnR](https://imgur.com/a/oXeccnR) (ocr translated)

~~~
jgust
Wow. The grid in the US sucks.

------
ChuckMcM
Sadly, if you started putting outlets on the side of street poles in the Bay
Area you would attract camper vans rather than EVs. (cue the story of the guy
who drove to LA using RV parks to recharge)

Its an interesting question though, EV parking lots would seem to make a lot
of sense. And certainly it would seem that HOAs for apartments and condos
could benefit from them if they charged a bit for the power.

~~~
693471
My friend toured the USA in his 2012 Model S before the SuperCharger network
existed by only charging at RV parks. The truth is that gas is harder to find
in some places than electricity. You just have to take a few minutes to think
about the grid and where power is at and the entire debate about feasibility
of EVs is flipped on its head.

------
cr0sh
My question would be - does frequent short charging sessions cause issues for
the battery packs? Versus longer full charging sessions?

I know that lithium cells with their different chemistry are more forgiving of
charging and discharging (vs NiMH, NiCd, or Lead Acid). I wonder though if
that doesn't cause other effects, such as perhaps longevity issues that might
cause overheating or something?

~~~
frankus
Deep discharges and sitting at low state of charge for a long time are the
main things that shorten battery life.

Also harmful is charging to the absolute maximum state of charge. I believe
most vehicles have a setting to terminate the charge at a level that maximizes
battery life and another setting that maximizes range.

------
mattmcknight
It seems like an opportunity to building an electrified parking garage where
people can buy a powered spot. Could also sell powered street spots to
municipalities in a rev share agreement. Many office buildings and apartment
complexes are ramping up charging facilities with the number of EVs.

~~~
paxys
Lots of shared building garages as well as public parking lots/garages have
dedicated spots for EVs with chargers built-in nowadays.

------
golover721
My office has installed a couple of free level 2 chargers and I haven’t needed
to charge at home or elsewhere since. Charging for a few hours a couple of
times a week is enough for my Bolt and my 10 mile commute as well as driving
around the metro area on the weekends.

------
yellowapple
I like the streetlight idea for getting more chargers out there. It'd also be
great if every parking meter had at least a trickle-charger.

Hopefully solar efficiencies will continue to improve to the point where
trickle charging via solar is actually viable.

------
fencepost
I've been meaning to suggest to the franchise owner with a bunch of Wendy's
around here that putting EV charging stations in some of his excess parking.
Get some folks who might consider coming for lunch to come, pay to park for
half an hour, then leave without monopolizing spaces for a long time because
they have to get back to work. Also become a hub for food delivery drivers.

Beyond that, there are a few charging stations at local malls, one at a Meijer
(regional chain, think Target with a large grocery store), probably a bunch of
others that I've just not noticed. Common element is that they're at places
where people can shop.

------
pkaye
The Target in my neighborhood has like 10-20 charging stations. Its packed to
the brim with Teslas with even a waiting line at times. I'm not sure if they
are people trying to save money or apartment dwellers.

------
api
Honestly I think the low hanging fruit would be to put 115V outlets in at
apartment complexes that have designating parking spaces. Just normal 115V,
which is usually already wired at or near the spot.

------
Pfhreak
Where will garage orphans add gasoline to their cars if they must park on the
street?

If only there was a way to add energy to a vehicle outside of the home. Cars
park all over the place. Distributed charging infrastructure doesn't sound too
impossible -- parking meters probably already need electricity. Park and rides
or business parking lots incentivize people to shop or commute in certain ways
for a relatively modest investment.

~~~
chc
It's not really comparable. Garage charging makes EVs more convenient than ICE
cars, but they're much less convenient if you can't charge at home. ICE cars
can stop at a gas station on empty and be back on the road completely full in
two minutes. Even with a fast charger, it takes upwards of half an hour to
charge an EV. Level 2 charging takes hours.

~~~
Pfhreak
Maybe the PNW is different, but there are chargers everywhere here. Charge
during work, while you shop, etc.

Charging will be an incentive or even an expectation. Imagine if your employer
said, "We'll fill your tank with gas while you work", people would love that
perk. Having free or subsidized charging at work seems like an inevitability
to me.

~~~
chc
The year of Linux on the desktop seemed like an inevitability for a lot of
people. It never happened. I'd love for the future you envision to come true,
but I don't see any reason to think it will, given how little movement there
is in that direction even in a super EV-friendly region like Southern
California.

To be clear, there are chargers at my work...but only two, and they're for-
profit, so the converted cost per mile of range is more than it costs to put
gas in my Prius. It was the same at my last workplace.

~~~
llukas
In NorCal I got charger in following places: 1) apartment complex (one set of
public + separate apartment dweller chargers) 2) at work 3) at supermarket I
do shopping most often 4) on public parking in various places

"The future is already here — It's just not very evenly distributed"

------
lazyjones
I'm one of those and have never had any issues with charging. I park in a
public garage with 6 charging spots near the entrance and once every 1-2 weeks
when I get home I park at the chargers, plug in the car (at 11KW Type2) and
move it to a normal parking spot when it's full (typically 4-5 hours later).
So the time I "waste" every 1-2 weeks is pretty much the extra walk to the
garage and back.

------
shyn3
There was a guy several years ago trying to get his car charged. The city will
have tons of work in the future to allow this [1].

[1] [https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2016/09/01/toronto-
electric...](https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2016/09/01/toronto-electric-car-
owner-stuck-trying-to-charge-car-on-the-street.html)

------
kazinator
How about running one of those gas-powered generators next to the car?

Put a sign next to it saying, "my government doesn't invest in green energy".

~~~
aphextim
Something like this image, but with your slogan/sign on it?

[https://imgur.com/UgEs6va](https://imgur.com/UgEs6va)

------
chiph
There was a Model 3 owner at the last apartment I lived in. The buildings had
garages for some apartments, and he had one. But the management wouldn't let
him hire an electrician to wire up a 240V charger. So he left the interior
garage door open and ran a cable to the clothes dryer outlet instead.

------
spenrose
The chargers are cheap and getting much faster and will be deployed everywhere
you can run an electric line:
[https://twitter.com/sampenrose/status/1152625267589840896](https://twitter.com/sampenrose/status/1152625267589840896)

~~~
chc
This is kind of the "Year of Linux on the Desktop" of EVs. I'll believe it
when I see it. I live in a community with an incredibly high number of EVs,
but I can't get one because I am not a homeowner and there's no charging
anywhere besides people's garages.

The above thread suggests there's going to be free, ubiquitous inductive
charging in a few years. Just look how far we are from that. Even in
putatively EV-friendly areas, it's still really hard for someone without a
garage to consider an EV today. California can't even find the political will
to fund its EV rebate for the whole year. How likely is it that there will
just be magic free electricity everywhere in 10 years?

~~~
esotericn
Ten years ago viable electric cars did not exist. At all.

------
olivermarks
In California the bankrupt PG&E power company will be turning off power during
fire season high risk periods to limit their exposure. Escape from fire in an
EV won't be possible unless you keep a fully charged vehicle on standby
regardless of the charging location.

~~~
post_break
Can you drive a tesla while it's being charged? A small trailer with a
generator on the back could work as an emergency.

~~~
olivermarks
yes with some caveats
[https://generatorgrid.com/blog/tesla/](https://generatorgrid.com/blog/tesla/)

------
duxup
>“Most neighbourhoods have somewhere – a local community centre, library,
school or a church – with parking that’s empty at night, and these folks could
use the revenue,”

Yeah that is what we need traffic / coordinating who parks at these gathering
spots.....but just to change.

------
King-Aaron
This thread seems to be an argument between inner-city people who don't see a
need for a car, and people who don't live in a city who can't understand why
people in cities don't give a toss about anyone else.

~~~
Brakenshire
Surely this is a problem specific to cities? Must be unusual for people in
suburban or rural areas not to have access to their own parking.

~~~
King-Aaron
The article at hand - agreed - is a city-centric topic in itself. What I'm
getting at is the borderline aggression within the thread here.

------
Nasrudith
I know at my current company they decided to put in a Tesla charger station
out back. Not too many in the company have one but any regularly visited
location with a supercharger could substitute.

------
fit2rule
I have this problem with my electric moped - I often need to find a charger
for it.

Its going to be an app that connects users with each other to help provide
charging facilities.

Or else, gas stations will pivot.

------
693471
RV plugs curbside. We could make this standard if we cared to.

------
Havoc
Seems the US is at a severe disadvantage here with 110V.

Also, surely people can charge at work? 8 hours at work should cover a fair
bit of the population

~~~
AshleyGrant
The US has both 240v single phase and 208v three phase across the entire
country. Any house with an electric range would have 240v service and can
likely handle a L2 charger.

------
pi-rat
This problem requires multiple solutions, here's some that I think work great
in Norway:

\- "Lamppost" charging, Oslo (and other cities) put up a ton of charging poles
in the streets, you use an RFID card to start charging. They've recently been
free, but now cost $1 per hour ($0.5 at night). They look like this[1a] or
this[1b]. Oslo will have about 2200 of these at the end of the year.

\- Parking house charging. My regular parking house got it's own zone for
electrics. Your license plate is read when you enter the parking house, then
read again if you enter the charging zone. Automatically billed when you
leave. This is my main charging atm, I've a garage, but not had extra power
installed yet. My car has about 500 km range. Leaving it a work day in a
parking house once per ~14 day is enough for my (limited) use. Some of the
parking houses in Norway are built with battery banks to handle the load of
100+ chargers. Here's a video tour of one of them[2] (I don't live in Oslo
though, but it's similar). I think I end up paying $12-ish for
parking+charging for the one I use for 8+ hours.

\- Shopping centers / convenience store charging. Many stores here got free AC
charging now. And some of the larger centers / stores have established fast
chargers (DC) on their parking lot (costs money to use). I can charge 250 km
range while doing 30 minutes of shopping for around $10.

\- Charging at work. Many work places here in Norway offer free charging as a
perk.

\- Friendly neighbours. In my street there's a dude who's put up a sign:
"You're free to use my charger if I'm not here, send me $1 per hour using
vipps (local app for mobile payment) to XXXXXX if you feel like it"

\- And if all else fails, have plenty of paid fast chargers around in central
locations, sucks to wait around for 30-60+ minutes, but it's a nice backup.

There's tons of charging spots in Norway, but the number of cars is outpacing
the number of chargers, we'll probably see more congestion and queues in the
coming years.

While I've never hit a full parking house yet, it will happen sooner or later,
so it really helps to have a long range EV, that way you can go "Meh, I'll
charge tomorrow instead.."

[1a]:
[https://www.google.com/maps/@59.9287147,10.7231223,3a,59.2y,...](https://www.google.com/maps/@59.9287147,10.7231223,3a,59.2y,115.83h,72.34t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sbTZWYkPZ1VrxuPhXRaeUlA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656)

[1b]:
[https://www.salto.no/media/images/referanser/_big4by3/søyle-...](https://www.salto.no/media/images/referanser/_big4by3/søyle-
dyp-2.jpg)

[2]:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ktNKWLwjQJM](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ktNKWLwjQJM)

------
makz
I thought it was illegal to own a car without having a parking spot. I don’t
know really, can someone clarify?

~~~
thehappypm
It is not illegal to own a car without a parking spot. Where did you even hear
that?

~~~
clouddrover
In Japan you have to prove you have a parking space before you buy a car:

[https://www.reinventingparking.org/2014/06/japans-proof-
of-p...](https://www.reinventingparking.org/2014/06/japans-proof-of-parking-
rule-has.html)

[https://jalopnik.com/why-the-japanese-will-never-buy-lots-
of...](https://jalopnik.com/why-the-japanese-will-never-buy-lots-of-american-
cars-1791698361)

[https://www.japantimes.co.jp/community/2017/06/04/how-
tos/pa...](https://www.japantimes.co.jp/community/2017/06/04/how-tos/parking-
car-can-drive-crazy/)

Kei cars (tiny city cars) don't require proof of parking so they are a popular
segment of the Japanese car market.

------
morkfromork
I thought people like that would use the Tesla self-driving robotaxis. They
won't need their own car.

------
dabinat
Why is this a problem? Gas-powered cars don’t fill up when they’re parked.
Just solve the problem the same way - let people go to a specific place to
charge their car like they do to fill up with gas.

I have a Tesla and live in an apartment and it’s really not a big problem. The
Superchargers are pretty convenient. And once Tesla rolls out L3 chargers more
widely it will be even easier.

~~~
philjohn
The problem is filling a gas powered car takes minutes so you can easily fit
it into your day - charging a Tesla is probably closer to 30 for a decent
range top up.

The former can be done on the way to work, as can the latter, but the latter
requires a bigger shift in behaviour to achieve.

Yes, it's not the end of the world, but to pretend there's zero problem
ignores reality somewhat.

------
aurizon
Yeah, I can see guys with Teslas and extension cords on electric reels that
plug into your external outlet and charge, then burn off they see your lights
go on...

------
arkitaip
Once cars get smart enough to actually drive on their own, your car can sneak
off to the nearest charging station while you are at work or sleeping at home.

~~~
dmitrygr
So what do we do for the 50 years between now and then?

~~~
xkcd-sucks
Run a gas-powered generator in the back seat?

------
mikekchar
We've had an EV for about 6 months now -- no way to charge at home. I will
admit to being a special case, in that I have no problems at all charging the
car, but the experience has led to some insights.

First, why I'm a special case. I live in Japan. Compared to Canada (and I
assume most of the US), the charger situation here is _amazing_. We've done a
fair few road trips now and it seems like no matter where we go, there is a
fast charger within 2-5 km. At least 25% of the rest stops on the highway have
them. A large percentage of "michi no eki" (Road station -- essentially
farmers markets) have them -- to the point where the other day we were on a
road trip and were very surprised to see a michi no eki that _didn 't_ didn't
have one. Family Mart convenience store often has one (something like 1 in 10,
I would guess). Aeon (big shopping mall) has one or two (and often 15-20 200V
chargers) and every Nissan and Mitsubishi dealership has one.

This is really the future, I think. It costs _millions_ to make a gas station.
It costs _thousands_ to put in a fast charger. You can put one _anywhere_
because we already have the electrical infrastructure in place. I know several
restaurants that have put them in.

At the moment, there is _way_ more infrastructure than demand, so I very
rarely have to wait. If, for some reason I do, then I drive 2km the road and
charge there. It's hard to know if this will get better or worse as things
scale up, but for the moment it's pretty good.

I'm also in a good situation in that I work from home. When I want to charge
the car (a couple of times a week), I drive to the Family Mart, plug in, pick
up a few groceries and then work for 30 minutes to an hour. They have a table
(with power, even) for people to work at. It's air conditioned. It's so
convenient, it's crazy.

However, it's the same thing when we travel. Our car only has a 30 kWh range,
so we have to stop relatively frequently. But since there are chargers _all
over the place_ , we just stop and walk around. We often end up buying small
things, or having a snack. We've seen so many amazing things since we got the
EV because we're forced to stop and hang out in the small towns.

I think people are going to cash in on this. You are going to see small towns
with parking lots with validated charging. People are going to drive by, stop,
pick up a few things and carry on. Already the rest stops in Japan are
absolutely geared for this: the have souvenir stores, restaurants and even
things like clothing stores.

I think this is going to be a thing because compared to a gas station, it's
cheap _and it 's also really nice_. I thought I would dread charging the car.
It's actually one of the best parts of my week. I get out and meet people. I
slow down a bit. I get some shopping done.

Canada is kind of a difficult problem because it has 25x the land area and 1/4
the population of Japan. It's going to be tough. Also, they don't have any
particular reason for someone to invest money in the infrastructure. Nissan
and Mitsubishi are doubtlessly scared stiff of the time when Toyota and Honda
enter the market. They want to own that charging infrastructure -- so they are
going crazy right now. But I think it's actually inevitable, so if you have a
fair amount of capital and are looking for a long term investment, I think
this is a good one.

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lovemenot
Xez we cz CT f az

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trilila
I think this points out the elephant in the room: why are so many people in
supposedly high income cities not able to buy properties? This is an issue
that needs to be solved hand in hand with pollution: less travel, less need
for a car, and more living outside overcrowded cities means more living space.
So how can we move more jobs to suburbs, where people can work at nearby or
home locations and can afford more living space? I seriously struggle
understanding why at least tech jobs are so centered around crowded cities,
when these could really be located in tech clusters or tech cities on the
outskirts.

~~~
whalesalad
This is my hangup too, and it crosses over into the craze around building high
density housing in California.

I don’t want high density housing. I don’t think anyone does. I want a yard
for my dogs to play, for my wife to nurture the garden she has always wanted,
for fruit trees, a garage where I can work on my car, etc...

We have so much land all around this country and no one is using it.

~~~
s0rce
Unless you live in a very small community the downside of this is horrible
traffic.

~~~
trilila
That is based on the assumption that jobs MUST be downtown, thus all traffic
converging towards that area.

~~~
s0rce
Jobs aren't downtown in the Bay area... Traffic is awful and if you change
jobs you might need to move.

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rodmor
This story reveals an underlying problem, DC charges are still too slow
compared to gas stations. You can fill a gas car en less than 5 minutes,
compare to Level 3 charges that still requires an hour. This causes a severe
convenience problem for electric cars. if you are running out of gas and still
need to use the car, you can quickly solve the problem at a gas station; with
electric cars what if you still need the car? (You had a pretty busy day), you
are no good for more than 6 hours while the car charges.

Certainly, it will be a good business opportunity for the company who figures
out how to take charge time to gas station levels.

In Condominiums, metered charges could be installed in each appartment parking
lot. For those who don't have a garage or parking lots, small public charging
stations could be used, although the charging time problem would need to be
solved.

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silveira
Extension cord.

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hannob
How about this: We stop giving people free (or almost free) parking lots in
public space?

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JustSomeNobody
This is why we need standard, swappable battery packs. You pull into a
"filling station" and a robot pulls your used pack and pops in a new one. 5
minutes, in and out.

Sad thing is, this isn't a new idea. People just don't seem to want it.

~~~
goatinaboat
_People just don 't seem to want it._

People right now feel that the advantages of batteries integrated throughout
the chassis are greater.

~~~
freehunter
Yeah standard swappable batteries are nice but as we can see in the cell phone
and laptop world, they're very restrictive on design choices. And since EVs
are very sensitive to weight and aerodynamics, coupled with the fact that EV
makers are trying to put as many batteries into the car as they can, there's
just no way to make a one-size-fits-all battery that works for every car.

You'd either need to trade off battery density (which means EV range concerns
are amplified) or trade off weight and aerodynamics (which means EV range
concerns are amplified).

No general consumer EV maker is going to _reduce_ the total range on their
spec sheet just to make it easier to swap a battery that also fits several
other cars that they don't make. It's not a smart marketing decision.

~~~
JustSomeNobody
> You'd either need to trade off battery density (which means EV range
> concerns are amplified)

So, instead of being able to go 300 miles before charging for an hour, I could
go 225 but change it out in 5 minutes. I'll take the latter thank you.

~~~
freehunter
Yes, that's why I mentioned the spec sheet. It doesn't matter all the
additional benefits you might get if customers are looking at just one number:
range.

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kazinator
> _Right now, the bulk of public stations in Canada are Level 2 (there are
> nearly 3,500 of them), But to get a full charge, you’ll have to leave your
> car there for hours, and many of the country’s chargers are clustered in
> major urban centres like Vancouver, Toronto and Montreal. Even if you live
> in a city where many chargers exist, there might not be one located
> conveniently close to where you live._

That's okay, Trudeau will invest in this area by running a few copper wires
along the trans-mountain pipeline expansion.

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aurizon
Did you know a huge part of the cost of operating an electric subway is the
delays involved in getting a dollars from every person who gets on through a
slow down called the fare box. Another is a stooge whose only task is to
open/close doors. Another stooge starts and stop the cars. In Toronto these
stooges get about $50 US per hour for salary, pension and various benefits.
That is $150 an hour. Elevators were like that years ago. They had operators,
and in a fully automatic elevator, they would ask you what floor and push that
button. Then they fired them. End of the earth is looming said their union.
Ho-hum said thje world. We need fully self driving subway cars, with fitted
electic doors on the cars and on the track - just like the doors that stop you
falling down the shaft on an elevator. That way subway operating costs would
fall by 60% or more. WE also need fully tracked packaging. Buy a wrapped
chocolate bar and they know who paid for it, and you pay a25 cent wrapper
deposit. Toss away the box and they know who tossed it = fee for you. Dispose
properly and the candy wrapper deposit is scanned and paid to you. We are
going to have to deal with our trash. This applies to all trash, even on the
high seas. The UN, after 20 years, needs to declare coal burning plants and
act of war against mankind = cruise missile to destroy it. Cars must all be
electric in 20 years. Any after that confiscated unless converted to
batteries. No excuses. It is as stark as it can be. Do this or the world
dies!!!

