
Ask HN: Is it worth it to move to London as a SWE? - zabana
I&#x27;m contemplating leaving my current location (Western Europe) to expatriate.
I have lived and worked jobs in London when I was a student and I&#x27;m looking to move back as I like the country and its culture (compared to where I am now).<p>I&#x27;m just worried that the living expenses aren&#x27;t worth the move and that I would be better off looking into other destinations like Germany, the Netherlands or perhaps even Sweden ?<p>What&#x27;s your take on this ?<p>Cheers
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dangus
High cost of living areas benefit SWEs and other in-demand professionals. I
imagine they aren’t as good as mid-sized cities for commodity careers due to
the cost of living.

Disclaimer here: I don’t know anything about London. And I won’t talk about
Brexit, that’s a separate and important consideration.

The higher salary will almost certainly make up for the cost of living.

You just need to do the math. The information is readily available. Find
salary information for your role and experience level, and then jump on real
estate websites and find out how much rentals costs near some of those
employees.

I thought San Francisco was crazy until I did the math. Sure, the rent is
$5000 a month or higher, but that’s only $48k a year more than a $1000 a month
apartment in the Midwest United States. But you’re looking at a salary
difference of over $100k, maybe even $200k, and all that extra money means
extra savings that could be taken to a cheaper city when you retire, or help
you retire faster.

Not only that, but everything that comes from a factory, and things like plane
tickets all stay the same price while your salary is way higher.

I personally think going from a mid-size city to a larger one is appealing.
Larger cities have more things to do, more ways to explore niche interests,
and better transit.

There are downsides but I think some adjustment is all you need. For one, you
have to take your personal belongings seriously. If you have a suburban habit
of storing a bunch of stuff you don’t need, you will need to change that. If
you can learn to live in a smaller space and enjoy it that’ll go really far in
allowing you to benefit from the extra salary without throwing it all away on
housing.

~~~
theredbox
Except the salaries in Europe, nowhere in Europe can even come close to such a
staggering difference like those in SF or NYC.

There just is not that kind of money in circulation for SWE.

I even doubt one can get $130k in London.SWEs in London are not competing with
other SWEs. They are competing with bankers and similar.

~~~
objclxt
> I even doubt one can get $130k in London.SWEs in London are not competing
> with other SWEs. They are competing with bankers and similar.

It's certainly _harder_ than in, say, SF, but by no means impossible. Google
and Facebook between them have thousands of engineers in London and are
growing fast. They're not paying as much as the US, but are by no means
stingy. £100k ($130k) is not unrealistic.

If you want some anecdotal data, I transferred from the Bay Area to London and
my base salary decreased about 25%. But then again, a nice one-bed apartment
in London can easily be easily found for $2k...try finding that in SF.

~~~
pc86
> _£100k ($130k) is not unrealistic._

Yet I work in a a medium-to-low COL area of the US and make more than that. My
area is in the high 80's while NYC is 162 and SF is 206.

It's hard to argue in favor of being a SWE in London if being a SWE in the US
is a possibility in _any_ locale.

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durnygbur
The view I have in memory of London are trains full of commuters from the
outer villages, most standing and all seating places taken. Paying an absurd
share of their salaries on this bloody train tickets. You could be more lucky
in finding an extraordinarily well paid job and simultanously an affordable
(in London terms) housing nearby, but yeah... good luck.

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wikibob
There seem to be only two locations in Europe where software engineering pays
reasonable money: London, and Zurich. See
[https://www.itjobswatch.co.uk](https://www.itjobswatch.co.uk) to get an idea
of salaries.

London has lots of downsides, but you can expect a reasonable career.

Also if you have aspirations to move to the USA, you can work for a FAANG
company and then get a transfer to a US office in a few years on an L1 visa.

This is now the only practical way to get into the US to work since the H1B
visa system is completely broken.

~~~
2rsf
> pays reasonable money

what are you comparing ? the number on your payslip or quality of life with
the same salary ?

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tomstuart
There are plenty of good software engineering jobs in London (with higher
salaries to offset the higher cost of living), but if I were you I’d wait
until the dust has settled from Brexit before you decide whether you really
want to move here. Some of my London friends are making the move in the
opposite direction.

~~~
psv1
> I’d wait until the dust has settled from Brexit

Even in the best case scenario it will be years before you can consider Brexit
settled in any way.

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outime
If your only concern is making money then yes, you can make a lot there.
Otherwise no: (IMHO) overpopulated, more insecure every day, expensive,
bureaucracy, not so good transport, Brexit, potentially devaluated currency in
the near future, no proper food culture, weather and then other personal
subjective reasons that I wouldn't write here.

On a side note, I'd suggest to look for something else than money unless you
have a very specific project or reason in mind. I made the mistake of taking a
job because of the high compensation and benefits on a different country and
made me miserable because everything else wasn't worth it - not even the job.
Choose wisely, as you'll be the one living it and not us.

~~~
mijoharas
I'd disagree with a lot of the points you raise (apart from brexit,
potentially devalued currency and our goddamn weather).

Particularly food, it very much depends what you mean by "food culture" and
whether you're thinking of "english food" but London has a lot of fantastic
restaurants of all types.

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cjwebb
London is about to experience two things: Brexit, and the private sector
reform of IR35 legislation (for contract work). Both will affect the job
market there.

Arguably the latter will be felt worse in the coming months, as Brexit has
already been accounted for by many companies.

~~~
sys_64738
The economic calamity of Brexit won't be felt until 2021 when the borders are
shut to foreigners and the free trade market. That's when the collapse starts.

------
smarri
London is expensive as you remember, but salaries are high to offset that
somewhat. There is a booming tech and fintech market in London too so I think
your skills are in demand. It could be a good move for a few years, but that
depends on your long-term plans.

~~~
FrozenSynapse
Salary/Cost of living ratio is not that good.

~~~
smarri
Where is better? Genuinely interested as it may inform my next move!

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hknd
I did this - moved from Western Europe to London a couple of years ago as a
SWE.

Initial compensation was a bit more than before but expenses were much higher
(back than I was in doubt where I made the right decision).

Now I'm making much(!!!) more than when I moved here, and life is great. Other
countries (except Switzerland) won't be able to pay salaries as high as you'll
get in London.

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drcongo
I can't imagine why any European would want to live in this stupid country
under brexit and the current government.

~~~
badpun
As hard as it may to conceive for some people on the political spectrum in the
UK, the UK is still some of the better European countries.

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rkangel
Depending on what sort of Software you want to work on, consider Cambridge
(UK). There is a busy tech sector in what is called 'Silicon Fen', but leans a
little more towards embedded and hardware rather than web.

~~~
ptah
salaries are appallingly low and it is quite expensive too.

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fastbeef
UK's at the verge of Brexit and my hunch is things like immigration are going
to be super messy for years to come. Just a heads up.

~~~
0-_-0
But not for the next year, so this is good time to move.

~~~
SideburnsOfDoom
> But not for the next year

What do you mean? The exit date is the end of Jan 2020

~~~
Kratacoa
The leave will be formalised, but it won't become completely effective till
they will agree on the new trade rules; until then it will act economically as
if it were part of EU.

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tchaffee
London itself has a pretty large range for living expenses. Zone 1 is going to
be far more expensive for almost everything including even your groceries. If
you are willing to commute a little on the tube, your rent and other expenses
can be a lot lower. So it's not an easy question to answer because a lot
depends on the specifics of what you want.

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gwbas1c
At least in the US, for me Silicon Valley was only "worth it" as a young,
single, professional.

Once I met my spouse and started having kids, Silicon Valley became way too
expensive.

If you're young, and have no spouse or kids, the experience alone might be
"worth it," even if you have to live in a tiny apartment and only stay in
London for a short time.

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tehlike
If you are going to expatriate, come to bay area. Sorry for this unsolicited
advice, but life as a swe is much better here.

~~~
dudul
One does not get a work visa for the US so easily.

~~~
zabana
Ha ! Unfortunately it's not. Otherwise it would be my top choice :)

~~~
tehlike
How about google/fb/etc london and getting l1 visa to come to usa after 1st
year...

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pawelwentpawel
If you plan to undertake any consulting / contracting opportunities have a
look at IR35 - it's about to be introduced in April and will most possibly
cause a lot of turmoil in London's tech sector. Might be worth to consider
this when making a decision.

~~~
johnnycab
>If you plan to undertake any consulting / contracting opportunities have a
look at IR35 - it's about to be introduced in April

You seem to have miscalculated the introduction of IR35 by two decades. It
came into force in April 2000.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IR35](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IR35)

~~~
burntoutfire
This April the laws are changing so that they strongly incentivise companies
who hire contractors to get them inside IR35. Prior to that, IR35 was mostly
only observed by government agencies.

~~~
johnnycab
IR35 is being _reformed_ in April 2020. It is not a new law, as I have pointed
out to the previous poster. There are no radical changes to: a) either create
a new law or b) morph it into creating another law, which is completely
unrecognisable from it's current form. Your claim that it is currently ONLY
being observed by 'government agencies' is not accurate. Furthermore, your
reading of this reform being pushed as some form of incentive is incorrect.

In the interest of providing impartial advice to the author of this thread; it
would be extremely wise to seek professional advice before embarking on this
route, as the conditions of employment under IR35 are complex and subjective.

[https://www.contractoruk.com/private_sector_ir35_reform/empl...](https://www.contractoruk.com/private_sector_ir35_reform/employer_guide_contractors_under_ir35_reform_april_2020.html)

------
psv1
You should really compare it directly to your other options. I recently moved
to London from the north of England and was also somewhat reluctant at first
exactly because of the higher cost and possibly lower quality of life.

------
longsangstan
Hi guys, can I also ask in general is it hard to find a programming job in
London now?

My Background: a javascript (node/react) dev with 2 yrs of exp, a EU(portugal)
passport holder living in Hong Kong

~~~
woutr_be
If you don't mind me asking, why would you want to move to London? Are you
looking for more opportunities, or a better salary?

As someone who's living and working in HK as a SWE, you can definitely get a
much better salary here in HK if you're fairly experienced. Carreer
opportunities are limited tho, because none of the FAANG companies have
engineering offices here.

~~~
longsangstan
Basically I just want to go somewhere to start fresh... not really career
prospect/salary motivated.

London looks a good option to me because its english-speaking, I have
relatives living there, I can work there visa-free (now its complicated due to
brexit), and I love english football haha.

~~~
woutr_be
That makes sense, gotta go for what makes you happy.

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ptah
i used to work in London and live in Cambridgeshire area. the salaries are not
that good compared to the extremely high cost of living. I moved to Scotland
as the cost of living to earning ratio is much better

------
pasabagi
Just be aware that dealing with UK bureaucracy is a special kind of hell -
doubly so if the bureaucracy in question is the Home Office. If you don't have
an iron-clad way of making sure you don't have significant bureaucratic
entanglements over immigration, I'd be wary.

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heldrida
The UK is Western Europe...

~~~
0-_-0
Not for long

~~~
practical_lem
After Brexit are they going to move the island like in Lost?

~~~
deliriousferret
That would be a great idea actually. I love London but not so much its weather
so I'm thinking we should have it moved in the Mediterranean Sea

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hootbootscoot
no

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ratsimihah
yes

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photoangell
maybe

~~~
dudul
Can't say

