
America is giving up on the pandemic? - jbegley
https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2020/06/america-giving-up-on-pandemic/612796/
======
dang
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~~~
dang
This is a stub comment to collect replies in one place, so that it can be
collapsed and prevent too much offtopicness at the top of the thread.

~~~
stevoski
@dang,

Maybe the text in italics ("Be kind. Don't be snarky...") should be always
shown above the HN comment box? It'd be nice to get the reminder every time we
are starting to write something unkind or snarky...

~~~
OrderlyTiamat
Speaking as a frequent reddit user where various subreddits have added their
versions of such an instruction, I think I've never really been reminded by
them to behave a certain way.

Parts of the UI like that can really only be seen once: once the user has seen
that it is just a warning that is always there, it becomes an uninteresting
piece of clutter that is zoned over and never again influencing the user.

I think the current system works much better: a thoughtful and appropriate
comment written by a human when deemed appropriate (or possibly copied, I
don't know).

This reinforces the ideas when necessary, and by itself is already a push for
humanity, while a robotic repeating reminder serves only rarely to reinforce
good reactions.

~~~
DEADBEEFC0FFEE
Yes, I agree. It also reminds me there are folk looking out for and guiding
the culture of the forum.

------
metrokoi
Quoted from a letter from 1,000 health professionals on the virus and protests
[0]

>However, as public health advocates, we do not condemn these gatherings as
risky for COVID-19 transmission. We support them as vital to the national
public health and to the threatened health specifically of Black people in the
United States. We can show that support by facilitating safest protesting
practices without detracting from demonstrators' ability to gather and demand
change. This should not be confused with a permissive stance on all
gatherings, particularly protests against stay-home orders."

Why are many taking this position? One can recognize that the protests are
risking an increase in virus transmission while still recognizing that it is a
risk worth taking. Don't tell us there is no risk from these protests, but
there is a risk from stay-at-home protests. The virus is not selective of
political beliefs. It completely ruins the credibility of many health
professionals. Almost no one's opinions will be swayed either way if they
acknowledged that the protests do carry a real risk of transmission.

[0] [https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/05/health/health-care-open-
lette...](https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/05/health/health-care-open-letter-
protests-coronavirus-trnd/index.html)

~~~
smsm42
> However, as public health advocates, we do not condemn these gatherings as
> risky for COVID-19 transmission

That's a shining example of weasel speak. They don't explicitly say it's not
risky - because that would be plain lying, it is obviously risky - but they
are saying they are not condemning it as risky. Which most people would take
as implying it's not actually risky - even though they are not saying that.
They are saying that the protest is too important to take health
considerations into account, but they are reluctant to speak plainly and tell
people there's risk but they should be adult and choose to manage the risks
themselves and maybe neglect small risk in order to achieve bigger thing.
Because that's what they spent last several months - and in fact, many years
before - trying to convince people there's no way they can be treated as
adults and just given the information and left to manage the risks by
themselves. Just in this case, our betters had decided the COVID risk is less
important than protesting - so it's OK for us. But only in cases which are
approved by our betters. If you want to protest something else - it's still
risky as heck and there they can fully condemn.

~~~
rayiner
Don’t forget public health officials outright lied and said masks don’t help
reduce the spread of the disease, putatively to help conserve masks for
medical personnel: [https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/17/opinion/coronavirus-
face-...](https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/17/opinion/coronavirus-face-
masks.html)

> When news of a mysterious viral pneumonia linked to a market in Wuhan,
> China, reached the outside world in early January, one of my first reactions
> was to order a modest supply of masks. Just a few weeks later, there wasn’t
> a mask to be bought in stores, or online for a reasonable price — just
> widespread price gouging. Many health experts, no doubt motivated by the
> sensible and urgent aim of preserving the remaining masks for health care
> workers, started telling people that they didn’t need masks or that they
> wouldn’t know how to wear them.

~~~
Tomte
That is simply not true and an awful accusation.

The last Sars or Coronavirus illnesses differed from this one, as in those
cases asymptomatic people were not spreading the virus very much.

So the (reasonable) assumption was that people mostly know when they are
contagious and stay at home.

In that scenario "community masks" (everything below FPP-2) don't matter much.

When researchers found that Covid-19 is different (and that has to do with the
massively higher virus load in the throat, where former similar diseases built
most of the virus load in the lungs), the stance changed.

That is a good thing! Learn new information, adapt your response.

What's fueling conspiracy theories now is that the messaging back then
centered on "we need to preserve masks for the medical community", which was a
smaller component of the motivation, sure, but got mostly conflated with the
real argument. I think that is because it was much easier to explain to the
public and to journalists.

In hindsight that was a mistake. But the conspiracy theories that health
officials just flip-flopped for no reason is wrong, and it's damaging the
fabric of society even more.

~~~
ikeyany
It is actually true. The surgeon general literally said:

"Seriously people- STOP BUYING MASKS! They are NOT effective in preventing
general public from catching #Coronavirus"

~~~
Tomte
Did you read my comment at all?

"which was a smaller component of the motivation, sure, but got mostly
conflated with the real argument. I think that is because it was much easier
to explain to the public and to journalists."

~~~
ikeyany
They still lied, which was the original point. Even if they lied for what they
believed to be good reasons.

~~~
Tomte
No, they didn't. They reasonably believed masks to be useless (at least
compared to the burden of having everyone wear masks).

They simplified (and arguably over-simplified) the public communication.

Insisting that they lied is uncharitable at best, and a hallmark of all sorts
of conspiracy theories right now.

------
Animats
Total deaths in US caused by police. (2019, full year): 1112 [1]

Total deaths in US caused by coronavirus (last Friday, one day): 975 [2]

[1] [https://www.theroot.com/here-s-how-many-people-police-
killed...](https://www.theroot.com/here-s-how-many-people-police-killed-
in-2019-we-think-1841183889)

[2]
[https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/#countries](https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/#countries)

~~~
orange8
Comparing apples to apples:

Average daily deaths in US caused by heart disease: 1800

Average daily deaths in US caused by cancer: 1600

Average daily deaths in US caused by corona virus: 1000

[https://www.healthline.com/health/leading-causes-of-
death](https://www.healthline.com/health/leading-causes-of-death)

Comparing oranges to oranges:

Total deaths in US caused by homicide (2019): 19510

Total deaths in US caused by police (2019): 1112

[https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/homicide.htm](https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/homicide.htm)

Comparing apples to oranges:

> Total deaths in US caused by police. (2019, full year): 1112 [1]

> Total deaths in US caused by coronavirus (last Friday, one day): 975 [2]

~~~
throwawayffffas
Comparing pears to pears:

Number of adults with diagnosed heart disease: 30.3 million [1]

People in the United States infected with corona virus: 1.9 million [2]

[1]
[https://ftp.cdc.gov/pub/Health_Statistics/NCHS/NHIS/SHS/2018...](https://ftp.cdc.gov/pub/Health_Statistics/NCHS/NHIS/SHS/2018_SHS_Table_A-1.pdf)

[2] [https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/us/coronavirus-
us-c...](https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/us/coronavirus-us-
cases.html)

~~~
orange8
Yes. Corona has a higher mortality rate than heart disease.

Those are just the kind of meaningful insights you get when you compare pears
to pears, apples to apples or oranges to oranges.

------
war1025
A thing I've noticed is that they stopped mentioning the daily numbers on the
radio (NPR, more specifically Iowa Public Radio).

It's sort of like the media has extracted all the juice they can from the
pandemic and now we're just left with the pulpy mess that no one really wants
to deal with.

~~~
ianai
I fear it might be more pernicious than that. There’s reason to believe states
are misreporting their numbers to hide what’s going on with it. But I think
the media senses the protests and racism issues have to take up all the
available oxygen, “or else”.

~~~
lostapathy
I think this is a lot of it, for better or worse. I feel like a lot of people
are afraid to talk about anything but the protests lately, lest they be
branded as not supporting the protests.

~~~
ianai
What’s crazy though is for the first time in my life I actually fear for the
future existence of the US. I watched 9/11 in real time and that didn’t feel
as much of a threat to our existence as this does. There’s an actual civil war
movement among the extremists now. I don’t think that existed during the civil
rights movement days, even. Nor even the Vietnam fallout.

~~~
refurb
If you think things are worse now than in the 1960's, I don't know what to
tell you. They were way worse.

Multiple politicians assassinated. Major multi-day riots across multiple
cities with hundred dead. Then a president being impeached.

2020 doesn't even come close to the 1960's.

~~~
catalogia
Trump and Clinton were both impeached too. Neither were convicted, but Nixon
wasn't convicted either (he quit before that could happen.)

~~~
refurb
Very true, but to your point, it was a given Nixon was leaving. With Clinton
and Trump it was more political than a done deal.

------
achenatx
Just wanted to add that the abolish the police sentiment isnt as inane as it
sounds on the surface. Abolish the police is about taking away
responsibilities that police have today and giving them to people more
suitable. Police - people trained for aggression with weapons to stop violent
criminals should not be handling:

1) mental health

2) homeless

3) drug addiction

4) domestic violence

5) traffic stops

etc etc

They should be called to handle

1) robbery in progress

2) active shooters

etc

The Not police should be trained in deescalation and should be familiar with
all the social resources necessary to help people in the community. The not
police should not be armed

~~~
rpiguy
Unfortunately, items 1, 3, 4, and 5 are all extremely dangerous. The Not
Police would be in grave danger. There is a reason that the Police Police are
armed.

That guy on drugs could stab you, you could pull a car over and that person
could have a gun, you could go to stop domestic violence and get attacked.

Police brutality goes up proportionately with violent crime in their area. In
other words, the more police deal with very dangerous people all the time and
the more their reactions become more aggressive to everyone.

It is no excuse for murder like what happened with Floyd, but there is a
reason we don't send social workers out to domestic violence calls or drug
calls...

Plus citizens have the right to own guns (which I am ever thankful for now
with rioting breaking out across the country). Unarmed Not Police would be a
joke.

~~~
bb2018
I'm sure there is great data on police calls but from my experience with
calling 911 social workers wouldn't really help. Earlier this year there was a
homeless man waving a knife at pedestrians a few blocks from my house. I know
this is a mental health issue and we need do do more for our homelesss - but I
couldn't ask officers to deal with stuff like that on the regular with little
or no protection.

I've also called 911 in the past when my house was burglarized, two men on a
highway got into a fist fight after one's car hit the other, and once when a
man was wandering into the middle of the highway trying to get himself run
over. You could limit the number of guns but there are real issues that I
think you'd want a well-equpied force for.

~~~
dashundchen
> Earlier this year there was a homeless man waving a knife at pedestrians a
> few blocks from my house.

That's sort of the point. That's a situation that may require both an armed
officer and a social worker. it's not to say that there is no situation that
would require it in a heavily armed nation like the US but frequently it does
not. In fact many would say sending heavily armed officers where it does not
require it can escalate things, and affects how these officers view and police
their communities.

------
shibeouya
When I see health experts saying we can have groups of up to 12 people outside
BUT protests up to 100 people, it really does not look good for the
credibility of these experts.

Nobody denies that the pandemic is/was a real thing. But at that point it has
been politicized ad nauseum and this is bad.

It will for sure have an impact on how much people trust experts, and general
trust in experts was already bad before this. But now nobody should dare blame
anyone for not believing an expert after the sham we have all seen.

Very sad that the pandemic has stopped being about science but moved to being
about politics. Good luck getting compliance if there is, god forbid, a second
wave or another more deadly virus in the future.

~~~
Dumblydorr
Everything is politicized, especially that which affects the economy and
elections. The pandemic will continue even if public health experts are not
willing to go against the grain and admit protests will lead to more
infections and more deaths. These experts may be succumbing to pressure and
there is clearly backlash against non-woke voices within the left.

------
realtalk_sp
The comment thread here, and the national attitude more generally, is the
literal embodiment of cognitive dissonance. Science and facts are only useful
insofar as they are convenient to our ends.

I suppose, in light of the shortcomings of human nature, it would be a lot
easier to make the point that needs to be made if we were dropping bombs on
coronavirus victims and broadcasting the carnage instead of rolling them up
into statistical output. Their crime, apparently, is dying in a way that isn't
direct and emotionally resonant enough for other human beings to grasp the
magnitude of it.

~~~
bagacrap
I think you're right that "science" and "data" are only believed when they
align with one's views.

But people seem to care a lot more about coronavirus deaths than deaths from
war, flu, air pollution, traffic accidents, cancer (since screenings are down
since lockdown), etc, so I can't agree with you on the other point.

Let's not forget that the data is far from all collected, and the science is
not settled, wrt either the true impact of the virus or the effectiveness of
various responses to it. I don't think it's wise to assume that science will
bear out any one particular point of view, once there is better data, more
perspective, and a scientific consensus.

~~~
realtalk_sp
You're digressing from the core, indisputable truth: these protests, in the
present environment, will result in a significant number of deaths. Sure we
won't start to have a sense of just how many until a few more weeks have
passed, but we _can_ say with relative certainty it will be " _significant_ ".

The reason people are dodging this is because it makes these protests morally
indefensible, on balance. This is terribly inconvenient if you've entrenched
yourself in a particular way of thinking and no longer wish to question it.

~~~
whymauri
Are all the state-wide openings in May, the opening of casinos, and the
festivities of Memorial Day Weekend, of which we are already seeing COVID
impacts, more or less morally indefensible than the BLM protests?

When all these other non-protest gatherings of people were taking place, were
you this outraged? If the answer is no: explain yourself.

~~~
realtalk_sp
Yes they are morally indefensible. Many of those decisions didn't make sense
to me and yes I expressed outrage about it to friends.

But your point is also a straw man. For the most part, there are still
prohibitions on large gatherings of people. These protests have been blessed
as an exception. Why? Because the government's hand was forced by political
expediency. In essence, the government has failed to protect the people from
themselves.

And let me flip the question on you: why do we need to protest so urgently
_now_ , during a global pandemic? Why can't it be postponed until after we've
resolved that problem and can permit it to go about safely?

I'll answer that for you: BLM has found outsized effectiveness _because_ of
coronavirus. Because people have more time, and are feeling less economically
secure, and are more emotionally vulnerable. They were better primed to
respond to the movement and organizers are capitalizing on that at the direct
expense of human lives, even if that isn't obvious to them.

Worst of all, history suggests that these protests and the consequent loss of
life will buy Black people next to nothing. Categorically the wrong solution
to a very complex problem.

------
Barrin92
The concerns are right but public assembly is critical in a democracy, and
cannot be put on hold indefinitely. It's probably the most fundamental right
in any civil society and with all these takes I have seen on twitter about
COVID and the protests, a lot of people seem to seriously unerestimate the
value that free assembly has.

Covid as bad as it is will be an issue of the near future, civil rights gains
or losses will have an impact in decades to come.

~~~
neonate
The issue is the double standard with which some protestors were condemned
while others were lauded based solely on which causes (and which classes of
people) the commenters happened to politically support. It's transparently
unprincipled, to the point of being a sad joke.

~~~
stonogo
That's not a double standard. That's just a standard. When one group of people
is holding signs that say "stop murdering people" and the other group is
holding signs that say "I need a haircut," and you're mad that "the
commenters" are not treating them the same, the problem is not with the
commenters.

~~~
neonate
You're making my point. You politically support one side more than the other,
right down to belittling the side you unsupport as "I need a haircut". Maybe I
agree with you politically, but when arguments from principle pivot from one
week to the next based on which way the politics point, it's not really about
principle.

~~~
jumelles
It's not belittling them - that was their argument.

~~~
neonate
That might have been what one sign said, but picking that as if it were "their
argument", let alone the best argument, is sample bias and clearly intended to
belittle. That's politics: build up your own side as much as possible, smear
the other side as much as possible. If someone actually wanted to be fair,
they'd reference a stronger case for protesting the lockdown, such as the
economic pain it has inflicted and the case that it also leads to deaths, such
as by suicide and addiction, as well as social ills like increased child abuse
and domestic violence. I'm not trying to take that side, just pointing out
that intellectual honesty is the first casualty of politics, just like truth
is the first casualty of war.

------
twblalock
The article’s authors are losing sight of the original justification for the
lockdowns: “flatten the curve” was about preventing hospitals from being
overwhelmed.

Of course cases will increase when people leave their homes. But have the
hospitals been overwhelmed in any of the states that started to reopen several
weeks ago? No! In that case the lockdowns have served their purpose.

The authors of this article are arguing more from a pro-lockdown position than
from an anti-virus position — they seem to care more about defending the
lockdowns than they do about actually solving the problem, even though it’s
becoming obvious that new solutions, like partial reopening, are working.

~~~
rabidrat
In addition to preventing hospitals being overwhelmed, the lockdowns were
intended to give us time to develop the infrastructure for adequate testing,
tracing, and supportive isolation. With those things in place, we can re-open
and still keep the virus in check.

If we don't have those things in place, the problem is not the re-opening,
which was inevitable since indefinite lockdown and isolation is not
sustainable anyway.

~~~
bagacrap
this seems like retcon. I never heard it before now, and there's not been
agreement on the method or role of contact tracing in a free society. Am I
going to be quarantined if some app says I got near a person who tested
positive? That seems ludicrous. States are reopening without tracing or
supportive isolation.

~~~
rabidrat
No, but you should self-isolate. And if you test positive, people you came
into contact with should be notified.

And this isn't a retcon. I got TTSI from vihart's video which was based on
this work published in April: [https://ethics.harvard.edu/covid-
roadmap](https://ethics.harvard.edu/covid-roadmap)

------
ac29
Daily new deaths have been steadily falling even as states continue to ease or
eliminate restrictions [0]:
[https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/us/](https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/us/)

This article seems to completely ignore that, instead focusing on positive
test results, even though the vast majority of infections are mild or even
completely asymptomatic. If anything, America is giving up on the breathless
projections of mass die off that aren't supported by reality.

~~~
nkozyra
Sort of. Florida has seen a consistent uptick in the last week. Some other
states are seeing a bounce.

I will say that 100k+ deaths is nothing to treat so trivially.

~~~
bagacrap
Treatment of the coronavirus has been anything but trivial. The monetary cost
per year of life saved has been out of line with that of any other
intervention for any other disease or threat to human life.

------
vgchh
Being an American (Naturalized), I am unable to understand where are we
headed. It's often said that America always bounces back. That American spirit
and innovativeness is unmatched and capable of overcoming any obstacles.
However, the current environment feels surreal. We have had the most Covid
infections and most deaths in the world. Mass protests against police
brutality, being met with more police brutality. Widespread looting in the
shadows of the protests. Toxic politics deeply dividing people. Sometimes I
get calls from worried (and shocked) relatives living in other parts of world,
inquiring about our well being and why things are so bad in America. Where are
we headed relative to rest of the world? Is America going to be the leading
light for the world again?

~~~
remote_phone
I think Biden should choose a moderate Republican as his VP. That is the most
symbolic choice he could make that he is serious about bringing this country
back together. It’s just about the only thing he could do that would unite
this country. Going further left will destroy this country, not because I
disagree with the policies but because right now we are in a crossroads for
this political divisiveness.

~~~
dehrmann
I used to halfway joke that the US needed a McCain Lieberman ticket.

But wow, yes, that'd be a good choice. Condoleezza Rice?

George W. Bush is eligible (90% jokingly). Biden and Bush would be malapropism
gold for SNL.

------
mydongle
It's tragic watching this play out. 4chan's /pol/ amongst many other racists
love it. They don't have to do anything while everything implodes. They see
Covid-19 as a nothing burger, and health experts giving these protestors a
pass vindicates their belief. But if Covid-19 is not a nothing burger, then
these protests will end up with many black people and other minorities sick
and possibly dead. People on the alt-right have mostly avoided doing anything
and are telling their side not to engage. Because as far as they are
concerned, right now it's just leftists burning their own leftist cities down.

~~~
carapace
In re:

> They see Covid-19 as a nothing burger, and health experts giving these
> protestors a pass vindicates their belief.

Four minutes later someone says just that:

> by admitting there are exceptions, [public health experts] reveal that they
> were not being straight with us all along.

~~~
twblalock
I never said I thought Covid-19 was a nothing-burger, and I have nothing to do
with the right-wing online crazies.

Nevertheless it is clear that public health experts have not been straight
with us. You don't need to be a right-wing loon to see that their open letter
contradicts what they have been saying until now.

Why did you personally attack me and associate me with the 4chan nutters with
no basis whatsoever?

~~~
carapace
> I never said I thought Covid-19 was a nothing-burger, and I have nothing to
> do with the right-wing online crazies.

I never said you did.

> Nevertheless it is clear that public health experts have not been straight
> with us.

Depends on the public health officials you listen to, eh?

> You don't need to be a right-wing loon to see that their open letter
> contradicts what they have been saying until now.

I agree. Mass protests during a pandemic are irresponsible although
understandable, in my opinion, and the open letter people are talking about in
this thread sounds to me to be pretty irresponsible as well, although I
haven't read it.

I just watched a bunch of videos of demonstrations happening today all over
the world. While my heart soared a little voice in the back of my head was
saying "...but covid is loving this..."

> Why did you personally attack me and associate me with the 4chan nutters
> with no basis whatsoever?

I didn't attack you, I wasn't even responding to you. I was struck by the
pattern match, that's all. I apologize for the offense, and wish you well.

------
fpgaminer
Something odd I noticed in my local area is that for the most part all the
protestors are wearing masks, yet people happily lounge around _inside_
restaurants without masks (and many times the staff themselves aren't wearing
masks). I really feel like the protests are less of a vector than people think
they are given this behavior.

Perhaps it's like the car accident paradox where streets that would seem more
dangerous have less actual accidents, because people pay more attention when
driving them.

~~~
leetcrew
AFAIK, we don't yet have a definitive conclusion on how effective the cotton
masks that most people have actually are. we're pretty sure they're better
than nothing, but that's about it. in my city, we've had thousands of people
in a densely packed crowd marching on the interstate. they seem to have
exhibited good discipline in wearing masks, but the masks would have to be
_really_ effective for that to be less of an infection vector than tens of
unmasked people gathering in restaurants at a time.

imo, arguing that the increased transmission risk is justified by the
importance of the cause is reasonable. arguing that thousands of people
gathering in the streets doesn't really move the needle for covid infections
is a fantasy.

------
lykr0n
> Businesses are opening

Yeah. We never were going to be able to keep everything closed for much
longer. There is a very anti-handout ideology here, and the amount of
political will for more bailouts was dwindling.

> Protests...

Sorry about this one. There are more important issues that need solving right
now, and momentum and timing are very important. Right now we're in a perfect
storm where a large amount of people can protests. Day after day after day.

The only way we could have kept the pandemic at bay if it was the only thing
in the news and on everyone's mind. And more important things came along.

~~~
bagacrap
is it just an ideology? At a certain point, you do have to actually work to
make the economy spin. No economy, no money for healthcare. People die from no
economy. So this is not an ideology so much as acceptance of reality.

------
aazaa
> The virus has not mapped neatly onto American political narratives, either.
> While some questions remain about their accounting, Georgia and
> Florida—where leaders opened up early and residents seemed relatively
> defiant of public-health advice—have seen relatively flat numbers, while
> California, which took a more conservative approach, has seen cases grow.
> The state most poised for major trouble seems to be Arizona, where the
> outbreak is spreading very quickly. Not only is the state (which lifted its
> stay-at-home order on May 16) setting new records for positive tests and
> people in the hospital, but the percentage of tests that are coming back
> positive is also growing. So much for warm weather and sunshine alone
> stamping out viral transmission, as some had hoped: Phoenix saw only a
> single day’s high under 90 degrees during May. The state’s age demographics
> also haven’t played an obvious role: The state is slightly younger than the
> U.S. as a whole.

This may be the most striking thing at the moment. The pandemic isn't evenly
distributed in the US. Several factors compound the problem, including:

1\. the time between the enactment of policy and the consequences varies

2\. there may be an underlying seasonal component that's modulating stats in
certain states

3\. states show varying degrees of commitment to complete, accurate reporting
of test results and rigor

4\. positivity rates (# positive results vs # of tests) are rarely, if ever
reported so it's nearly impossible to assign weight to increases or decreases
in cases/fatalities

Throw this all together and you get one big, fat mess. It's nearly impossible
to figure out exactly what's happening with respect to viral spread or why.
National-level efforts to track or contain the spread are weak at best.

We should all hope that point (2) is not a major factor in this. If it is, a
bigger, badder sequel of the early spring, starting around fall seems
inevitable.

------
6gvONxR4sf7o
I support the protests, and believe they can be done safely, but we can't
forget about the virus. A quick googling gives me numbers between 300 and 1000
people dying of police violence per year. Call it 1k-2k per year. If we
eliminate 50-100 years of that, we match what coronavirus has done in a couple
months.

However, places are starting to relax the shelter-in-place rules already, so
people going out now isn't comparable to people going out a month or two ago.

I do wish it weren't an either/or. Protest with your mask, and keep distance.
To most people I know, this is how the protests they've been to have gone, so
that's great and we should stop giving them shit, the same way as we shouldn't
label the whole movement by the actions of some looters.

~~~
jl6
Is that 300-1000 unjustified deaths, or does it also include situations where
the use of deadly force may have been reasonable?

~~~
mynameishere
[https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/investigations/polic...](https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/investigations/police-
shootings-database/)

Filtering for "2019, black, unarmed" you get:

 _15 people shot and killed by police match your filters (less than 1%)_

Change that to "2015" and you get:

 _38 people shot and killed by police match your filters (1%)_

~~~
bluedino
A similar amount die from tasers, then you have ones that die from chokeholds
etc like Floyd, and then you have the ones that "die in police custody".

People are also marching for deaths caused by other citizens that were first
swept under the rug, like Ahmaud Arbery.

------
axguscbklp
This is a pretty heavily politicized article for something that is marked as
"Science" by the publishers. The authors have a clear political agenda that
bleeds through onto the page.

~~~
war1025
It's from the Atlantic. Of course it has a political agenda. That's why people
read it.

~~~
axguscbklp
True. I guess I was hoping that they would at least avoid pushing the agenda
in something that they themselves mark as "Science".

------
raz32dust
We now have a big unplanned experiment. We will see within the next few days
if the protests lead to significant spikes. Personally, I think that the virus
probably doesn't spread that easily outdoors, so while we will see a spike, it
will be small enough that it will only make the case for opening up outdoor
activities sooner. Fingers crossed.

~~~
TeaDrunk
I'm not sure if this is a big unplanned experiment any more than states
already opening up and existing protests for opening up have already been
doing.

------
giantDinosaur
The weirdest thing to me is that we have people protesting for fairly
deontological reasons - i.e. a reasonable 'killing is wrong', while being
ruthlessly utilitarian - 'covid deaths are a price we must be willing to pay
for reform'. Interesting!

~~~
bittercynic
Having your community brutalized by the very organization that is supposed to
provide protection is very different from having members of the community
dying of disease. Both are extremely awful, but at least the disease doesn't
seem to be trying to undermine civil society.

~~~
ghthor
Claiming that the police are trying to "undermine civil society" is
disingenuous.

------
RickJWagner
It seems like the coronavirus precaution phase is over, and I think it's
somewhat political.

A week ago, a Facebook friend of mine posted a passionate post about the
importance of wearing masks. This weekend, the same friend posts a photo
sitting around with friends, sans-mask.

This same friend is very politically active. Honestly, some of his actions
seem linked to whatever the current hot-topic is. I think there's been a shift
in emphasis, hence the lack of caring for the mask this week.

------
tobias3
We had large BLM demonstrations yesterday here in Germany. Demonstrators did
not follow Corona virus rules (compared to e.g. fridays for future). If
COVID-19 spreads in those circumstances (outside, mostly with masks, but close
contact + chanting), this'll have been the last of those demonstrations here.

~~~
wendyshu
Are black people in Germany especially abused by the police?

~~~
MagnumOpus
There are few black people in Germany. They are racially profiled, probably
just as much as middle-eastern looking people, but excessive police violence
against them is rare, and usually properly investigated and punished.

In Germany, much of the ire around unpunished excess police force is around
riot response squads who regularly use excessive force against leftist
protests (anti-G20, anticapitalism/Occupy, anarchists), especially if some of
the protesters turn to vandalism, start setting fires or attack the police.

------
LockAndLol
So is Europe. Apparently fueled by the protests in the US there have been
demonstrations in Berlin, Paris, Amsterdam, Madrid, Barcelona and other
cities. Not only are they protesting against racism but it seems like there
are quite a few also protesting against the lockdown measures.

Once the weather gets better again you can bet that all along the European
coasts hoardes or people will be ignoring the laxer provisions. In fact, they
already are.

Europe (at least Western Europe) is also giving up on the pandemic. At this
rate there's going to be a second wave. I have no idea if this will create
better conditions for the virus to mutate and possibly herald a third wave
keeping us in until 2022.

~~~
redisman
What I can’t even begin to understand is why would there not be a second wave?
Nothing biological has changed. Prevention measures have been mostly a
temporary lockdown which obviously has a extremely high cost in money and
goodwill.

~~~
ytNumbers
Sometimes a virus will mutate to become less deadly. Could that be happening
right now with COVID-19? Maybe. Judge for yourself...

[https://justthenews.com/politics-
policy/coronavirus/doctors-...](https://justthenews.com/politics-
policy/coronavirus/doctors-around-world-say-covid-19-losing-its-potency-
becoming-less)

------
mola
I'm afraid it was obvious US would not be able to deal with this. Powerful
people have lost all sense of empathy. Their power is much more important to
them than the lives of some poor people. The, rational, social darwinistic
ideology has its grip firmly in the minds of Americans. I'm not even talking
about the obvious culprits. I'm talking about us, we are obsessed with money
and consumerism. We think optics is more than reality, We talk about political
identity, where the obvious problem is class. We are shattered to tiny pieces
fighting each other while a handful of people (not just white, mind you) keep
their power.

Sad

------
Kataphract
Its nuts how big our societies have grown where hundreds of thousands could
die and it wouldn't really matter (assuming you were willing to be a complete
psycho about it). I really just can't see it affecting my life

------
trhway
People, and not only in America, is just giving up on their hope that the
governments would really start fighting pandemic, like produce tests,
implement contact tracing, etc. The lockdown isn't a pandemic fighting tool,
it was just a timeout to give governments the opportunity to start doing
necessary things. Well, it hasn't happened and doesn't seems to in the future.

------
DeonPenny
The point of the lockdown is to prevent overloading the medical
infrastructure. No one agreed to stop being around each other until the virus
is gone. Since the overloading doesn't seem to be happening no one cares
anymore.

------
NotSammyHagar
There's every reason we should see a good increase in cv19 spreading, because
there is no reason for it not to. Washington State's daily number on Sunday,
June 7 is 450 new pos cases, [1] which was last seen on the first of April. 2
months later coming back to early April numbers. [2]. We are testing 50% more
per day (about 4k/day in early April, 6k/day now). Even though we increased
testing by 50%, it was only recently that WA state got daily pos counts
matching 2 months ago.

My opinion is that standing up for the current abhorrance of police violence
connected to BLM is worth some endangering behavior on their own choice (i.e.
going out in crowds, because it's a multi-100 year problem), whereas getting a
haircut is not the same, but I see why that's contentious. 1000 more people
getting a positive case that wouldn't have otherwise will lead to a few
deaths, and they will spread it and kill a few more. It's personally horrible
to just write down that fact and not know what to do with it.

1\.
[https://bing.com/covid/local/washington_unitedstates](https://bing.com/covid/local/washington_unitedstates)

2\.
[https://www.doh.wa.gov/Emergencies/NovelCoronavirusOutbreak2...](https://www.doh.wa.gov/Emergencies/NovelCoronavirusOutbreak2020COVID19/DataDashboard)

~~~
gbpz
The haircut comments drive me up the wall, particularly if you know someone
who owns a small business and their accompanying struggles. Economic money
movement was stalled, which can have an enormous impact on livelihood. While I
can absolutely understand being critical of when protestors wanted things to
re-open, it shows a deliberate attempt at being unable to empathize.

~~~
NotSammyHagar
I am empathetic with those who will lose small businesses. I have someone in
my family personally affected.

I think the potential customers who wanted to get a haircut or their nails
done were making a less important request than the person who is losing their
livelihood. That is a different issue than the impact on the small business
owner who is devastated by this. Someone in my family is facing financial
devastation because they work in the wedding industry and all weddings are of
course on hold. This person could lose everything. Yet I don't want my or
anyone else's old relatives to die because of more spreading. Also my niece
has a job in a restaurant that isn't open any more - they tried to open but
not enough customers came.

With the people going to protests, we are certain to have increased infections
in a week or two.

------
Animats
San Mateo County health officer: _" The third modification of the shelter in
place order is being made on 6/1/20\. These modifications are being made in
attempt to strike a balance. They are an attempt to find a way to increase the
immunity of the population (in public health terms, this is called “herd
immunity”) slowly and methodically, while minimizing premature death, with
equity in mind, while not overloading the healthcare system, and minimizing
economic damage. Many of these considerations work in opposite
directions."_[1]

The current US death rate is about 1,000 per day, and that probably won't go
down much until there's a vaccine or until 70% of the US population has had
the disease. This is a "bury the dead and go on" situation. The US hasn't
faced one of those since WWII.

Meanwhile, don't bunch up, get good masks, and wear them. The mask supply
situation has improved, although too many of them are junk. The US could
probably beat this thing with enough N95 respirators.

[1] [https://www.smchealth.org/health-officer-statements-and-
orde...](https://www.smchealth.org/health-officer-statements-and-orders)

~~~
redisman
N95 is overkill. You likely bring down the R0 below one if everyone wears just
cloth masks. Less covid droplets in shared air. I still don’t see how will
public transport for example resume in the next year. My bus was always packed
like sardines and couldn’t fit everyone in it at the stop

~~~
Animats
N95 protects you. Cheapo masks protect other people. That's only useful with a
much higher percentage of mask usage than observed in the US.

Think this through. 50% use masks, 5% are spreading the disease. Interact with
100 people over a period of time.

\- Masks which protect others: (0.95)^50 chance of non-exposure = 0.6%. 92% of
population exposed.

\- Masks which protect you: 50% of population exposed.

This is oversimplified, but wearing masks which protect others just doesn't do
much.

~~~
robocat
If a common mask protects you 50%, then that is a huge win both as an
individual and as a group. Saying Assuming 0% in your calculations is biased.

I think your word “cheapo” is derogatory. Are people just being cheap when
they don’t buy an N95 mask?

Saying “cheapo” masks only protect others is an incorrect conclusion: your
language is also misleading.

~~~
Animats
Anything which leaks when you inhale doesn't protect you. If you take a deep
breath and don't feel the mask pulled against your face, it's not working.

There's now a huge supply of poor to useless masks available, many with phony
approval markings.[1] That's most of what's being sold on Amazon. It's
moderately hard to make a mask which seals tightly, doesn't offer too much
resistance to breathing, and filters to N95 standards.

A real N95 mask (3M 8210) is about $1.25 if you can get it. Some of the fakes
are much more expensive.

[1] [https://www.wsj.com/articles/u-s-files-charges-against-
chine...](https://www.wsj.com/articles/u-s-files-charges-against-
chinese-n95-mask-maker-11591395929)

~~~
robocat
Exactly.

The science shows a well fitted “cheapo” mask can protect you better than a
poorly fitted N95 mask. Even a surgical mask provides a little protection: if
they provide 25% protection and 50% reduction in transmission, and everyone
uses them, that is a huge reduction in R0.

Not everyone can invest the time required to learn how to source a real N95
mask.

My impression is you are trying to educate the uninformed, while sweeping
under the carpet important nuances. I’m sure that isn’t your intention, but
that is how it comes across to me.

------
deft
>This should not be confused with a permissive stance on all gatherings,
particularly protests against stay-home orders.

Some protests are allowed but not all? Why?

------
ImaCake
>These numbers all reflect infections that likely began before this week of
protest.

If I were a machiavellian populist facist president of the USA I would ignore
this reality and immediately start blaming the protests for increased case
incidence of SARS-II. I don't think this ends soon, in fact I suspect this
political fight will get worse before it gets better.

------
tuna-piano
I wish our scientists would be completely apolitical and stay within their
realm of expertise when speaking publicly.

For the non-factual topics, such as whether there an epidemic of unjustified
police violence against black people (the data does not clearly show that
there is - and in fact imo shows that there is not), stating their opinion on
the political topic means their scientific opinion loses credibility
immediately for significant percentages of the population.

Why do any scientists talking about the spread of virus need to say that they
support the cause? When they say that they do support the cause, why should
the 40% of the country who voted for Trump and watches Fox News still follow
their scientific advise?

I can't help but look back on the anti-lockdown protests and sympathize with
those people's skepticism and animosity toward scientists.[1]

It feels to me as the hard sciences have been inflicted with the same
political ideology that has dominated the arts+social sciences and that the
scientists are scared to share their scientific opinions in an apolitical way.
The same reason that your dishsoap company emailed you to let you know their
political beliefs.

I remember seeing photos during the anti-lockdown protests of medical workers
standing in front of cars: [https://api.time.com/wp-
content/uploads/2020/04/denver-count...](https://api.time.com/wp-
content/uploads/2020/04/denver-counter-protest-health01.jpg?w=800&quality=85)

And a few weeks later photos spreading virally of medical works supporting
protests:
[https://imagesvc.meredithcorp.io/v3/mm/image?url=https%3A%2F...](https://imagesvc.meredithcorp.io/v3/mm/image?url=https%3A%2F%2Fstatic.onecms.io%2Fwp-
content%2Fuploads%2Fsites%2F20%2F2020%2F06%2F03%2Fnurses-blm-protest.jpg)

It feels to me that in much of America, politics are not allowed to be public
unless they align with liberal views.

Is there any reason to have renewed confidence in these influential people and
institutions?

[1][https://twitter.com/MattWalshBlog/status/1267281387486412801](https://twitter.com/MattWalshBlog/status/1267281387486412801)

------
zzo38computer
I think that, even after other things are opened up, they should continue to
ban business travel and commercial airplane travel for some more time. This
will mitigate international spreading (I don't how by how much, but it will
help a bit). More testing would also be helpful. This way, you might have
better data to work with.

------
gregwebs
Yes, and the reason why is unfortunately articles like these which only
compare US states to each other or the US to Europe. If you look in these
places, there is no good solution. But all we have to do is look across the
Pacific Ocean.

There are many Asian countries aggressively stopping the virus without
lockdowns. Their citizens are leading fairly normal lives right now except
many still must wear masks everywhere. They have achieved this by contact
tracing every single case and stopping all new outbreaks. But the US is still
trying to learn how to do contact tracing, and without federal leadership on
this it is unclear if the US will be able to get proper contact tracing
working.

------
throwawaysea
Trevor Bedford (Associate Professor in the Department of Epidemiology at the
University of Washington) noted today that the protests will add 200-1100
deaths per day of protests:
[https://twitter.com/trvrb/status/1269533303536664576](https://twitter.com/trvrb/status/1269533303536664576).

Mapping Police Violence
([https://mappingpoliceviolence.org/](https://mappingpoliceviolence.org/))
notes that police killed 1098 people in 2019 in the US. Per the Washington
Post, the figure is 1043 but that's specifically for shootings (which covers
almost all officer involved deaths):
[https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/investigations/polic...](https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/investigations/police-
shootings-database/). And in all likelihood, most of those situations were
handled properly and professionally and the deaths were justified (without
wrongdoing on the police's part).

So we've just taken on far more undeserved deaths due to irresponsible
protesting and rioting than the very brutality we were outraged about in the
first place! How was this even allowed? It is completely irrational to permit
these protests, and to tolerate these super spreader events given the harsh
restrictions we placed on our lives in response to COVID-19.

I cannot believe that healthcare professionals and public health officials are
lining up to excuse the protests. This, just a couple weeks after they were
all criticizing moderates/conservatives who wanted to see orders relaxed. The
healthcare professionals and public officials who've jumped on the train of
rationalizing their flip flopping are simply too afraid to admit that they're
willing to tolerate the risks for activities and causes _they_ align with, but
they still want to force _others_ to make sacrifices with the activities that
they value. In other words, one set of rules for them, another set of rules
for everyone else. I've lost faith in our elected officials, public
institutions, healthcare providers, and academic bodies as a result of this
hypocrisy and failure of logic.

A more fair and just handling of COVID would be to let every individual assess
the risks and benefits of their activities themselves, as individuals, and let
them go about their way. If a business wants to stay open, so be it. If a
customer wants to visit a business, so be it. Those who are risk averse and
afraid of exposure can choose to deal with that risk by impacting only their
own lives by sheltering themselves.

------
ev0lv
Most people who I talk to don't really care about it anymore because they are
convinced that the statistics are inflated as a direct result of Hospital
administrators fighting for more funding.

I think for every 100 covid deaths, it's probably closer to 1-5 actual covid
deaths and the rest just get conflated.

------
garrickvanburen
No, not giving up. Just reprioritized. All I think we’ve proven is that a
large percentage of the population is more comfortable risking a infection and
far less comfortable with the police violence.

There’s nothing in here about disregarding recommendations from
epidemiologists. It’s about saying enough is enough on a persistent threat,
not an acute one.

~~~
downerending
> a large percentage of the population is more comfortable risking a infection
> and far less comfortable with the police violence

The chances of experiencing life-changing injury or death from either are
vanishingly small. Too bad we can't get people this excited about obeying
traffic regulations.

~~~
jointpdf
Unlike people, not all deaths are created equal (in my opinion). What I mean
is: a death caused by systematic oppression/racism (especially from an entity
whose core purpose is to “serve and protect”) is in some deontological sense
_worse_ than a death resulting from e.g. a car accident or even a virus. Some
things defy utilitarian calculus.

Also, you have to consider that there is widespread and life changing
_psychological injury_ (trauma) inflicted on minorities from years, decades,
centuries of systemic injustice along every axis of life. Imagine being a
child and growing up with a worldview that you and your loved ones are in
constant danger (from people that are supposed to protect you, no less) based
solely on the color of your skin. I keep thinking of the powerful words of
George Floyd’s friend Stephen Jackson in this clip
([https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=-0JdWfUJYYU](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=-0JdWfUJYYU)):

> _”We, as black men, have seen a lot of stuff as far as people being murdered
> and taken from us, right? But now, not only it’s been seen by us and our
> brothers, but it’s been seen by our children now. So I’m sitting there
> watching this and my daughter...my daughter tells me, ‘Dad I can’t leave
> you, cause I seen what happened to your friend, and I think you need me.’ My
> daughter is 6 years old. For my daughter to see that, and tell me that I
> need her at 6, imagine the pain and frustration that’s in my mind right
> now”._

~~~
downerending
I've been a multi-sigma outlier my whole life. So, in a sense, I can relate.
But in another sense, I envy the kind of community cohesiveness I have
witnessed in the black community. I never had that kind of support when I was
growing up. Always alone to deal with whatever aggressors crossed my path.

In my teenage years, I worked as a low status laborer in shops where I was one
of a very few white people among mostly blacks. Most were indifferent to me. A
few (all Christians) were saints, really, and I remember them kindly to this
day. And a few, including my crew boss, were "unfriendly" at best, and in
retrospect, racist as all hell. I don't particularly blame them, but I cannot
condone this sort of behavior either.

I sympathize with those who suffer. We all suffer. And we all deserve such
sympathy. Suffering, really, is the nature of being alive in our reality.

Is there more to do along this road? Yes. Are the killings and maimings we
have seen over the last week in any way justified or "worth it"? No.

------
Traubenfuchs
Overblown stay at home / quarantine measures are the biggest harm done to the
citizens of (Western) countries, since their last respective big wars.

The damage is and will continue to be immeasurable. How will the years of life
we saved measure up to the years of life and quality of life we have ruined?
We will never know.

------
pengaru
America has ADD.

------
acroback
So no one is going to talk about how the Model is a mathematical model which
follows Bayes Theorem in it's core. It updates it's priors based on new
evidence presented every day.

The whole point of the Model is to detect things which are uncertain by
nature. Being wrong is not bad, it's good TBH.

CMIIW.

------
mesozoic
Good question that the media seems to be avoiding. I'll be watching our
infection rates closely over the next 2 weeks and have some real questions
about everything if they don't spike.

------
mberning
Why shouldn’t they? People were browbeaten for having the audacity to want to
return to work. Now politicians are out marching shoulder to shoulder with
thousands of other people.

We also were told that Georgia was going to be a disaster for reopening too
soon and that has not come to pass.

It’s good to know that “believe science” and “stay home stay safe” are
completely negotiable based on what is politically expedient.

~~~
goatinaboat
The “open letter” signed by 1200 experts stating that protesting was no risk,
except for protests against the lockdown itself, was also mind boggling in its
audacity.

~~~
robocat
"One in every 1,000 Black men and boys can expect to be killed by police in
this country". If we presume average years of life lost per black person’s
death is 50 years, then Covid is less deadly.

To lower risk, black people could stay at home and wait for better times...

~~~
geomark
Those numbers seem to be vastly more than reported numbers of police killings.
Whom are you quoting? Because I like to keep track of who makes such
exaggerated claims.

~~~
robocat
This references the source data: [https://theconversation.com/police-are-more-
likely-to-kill-m...](https://theconversation.com/police-are-more-likely-to-
kill-men-and-women-of-color-121158)

It says that between 2013 and 2018, about 96 in 100,000 (approx 1 in 1000)
African American men were killed by police in the U.S.

Death from Covid is also lifetime risk.

It is a commonly reported statistic if you want to find other publications
that say the same thing. Did you try googling for it — for example google:
"1000 black men and boys" police

------
microcolonel
It's not just America. Here in Ontario, at least in my city, the lockdown in
mostly over. Social distancing is the mildest suggestion in the parks,
virtually nonexistent in many businesses. Pizza slice joints, grocers, most
things are pretty normal, outside legal orders against work.

It seems to me that there is U.S. tribe that worships the lockdowns despite
the evidence, for no articulable reason other than a hatred for the President,
or a proximity to the culture surrounding that hatred.

We have been delivered a blessing, in the reality of the matter, and it seems
like some people are more upset that the good news demonstrates the hubris of
their attempts to control the outbreak.

------
Schnitz
We're glad if we're still around after the election in November...

------
xnx
fwiw the question mark is not present in the original article.

------
FerretFred
It's interesting (to me) that centuries ago, plagues could last for __decades
__and the rapidly-declining populations had to put up with this. Obviously
they didn 't have the scientific knowledge that we have now.

 _However_ , although we have more knowledge now, we don't yet have a vaccine,
nor a political system that puts people first instead of profits, so might we
find ourselves in the same situation as our ancestors? Sure, we also have the
ability to complain to more people, more quickly, but that's about it.

------
known
There is nothing much Govt can do; You're on your own;
[https://masks4all.co](https://masks4all.co)

------
dfilppi
Reads like a political hit piece

------
Stranger43
Everyone is giving up on the containment strategy of shutting down all public
spaces, some do it slowly to give the illusion of control, where as other
simply open up and let people sort it out on their own but i doubt you will
find a single state/nation waiting on the magical vaccine(that might not
arrive) that fixed the issues with zero side effects to start returning to
normal.

Some of that is due to the fact that the number seen in
context([https://ourworldindata.org/causes-of-death#what-do-people-
di...](https://ourworldindata.org/causes-of-death#what-do-people-die-from))
are not as extreme as it was feared/hyped, and that the containment measures
were to little to actually stop the pandemic and never designed with that goal
in mind.

------
SPQT
Not a surprise, COVID19 is pretty soft compared to the historic pandemics. I'm
actually suprised that this continued for so long, I gave the lockdowns 4
week, but I guess the media propaganda blessed it with longer life.

Just to clarify about Covid: -The highest deathrate from it is around 1%, CDC
reports 0.30 lately. -Hits predominantly the old parts of the population -The
death comes in a normal way - pneumonia -> death, nothing like the bubonic
plague or ebola symtoms

~~~
seles
Link to source? Current data on cdc is 1,920,904 cases and 109,901 deaths
which is 5.7% (and it doesn't appear to be changing much). That's about 20
times higher than your figure of 0.3%.

~~~
razzimatazz
Just to those who downvote - if someone poses a question or argument which you
think is easily refuted, by downvoting or removing that question you remove
the opportunity for anyone else with the same argument to learn something.

And maybe this is part of the problem with the whole covid discussion -
labeling all these simple arguments from all sides as "wot a moron!" instead
of presenting them clearly for people to learn from.

------
mydongle
Judging by how health experts have given protestors a pass to forgo social
distancing , yeah, I can say it's all in the toilet now.

~~~
pstuart
I haven't seen anything to that effect. Care to share?

~~~
mydongle
[https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/05/health/health-care-open-
lette...](https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/05/health/health-care-open-letter-
protests-coronavirus-trnd/index.html)

[https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2020/06/04/public-
hea...](https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2020/06/04/public-health-
protests-301534)

[https://www.nationalreview.com/corner/1288-public-health-
pro...](https://www.nationalreview.com/corner/1288-public-health-
professionals-disgrace-their-profession/)

------
enitihas
Not an American, but seeing the current divide in the US makes me curious.
What happens if Trump wins again in 2020?

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coding123
My read of the CDCs numbers [0] seems to suggest to me that the CDC thinks 25M
in the US have HAD the virus. It's also likely that the people willing to
protest probably are among those that already caught it, so infection
spreading may actually be minimal.

0 [https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/hcp/planning-
scena...](https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/hcp/planning-
scenarios.html)

~~~
asdff
That's a big gamble.

~~~
coding123
Yeah I'm not totally convinced myself of the CDCs numbers, and there's
probably going to be consequences in a couple weeks.

