
The Open Source Bikeshed - lukaseder
http://blog.jooq.org/2013/12/01/the-open-source-bikeshed/
======
jballanc
It seems that with any cause, advocates typically break down into two camps:
militant and inclusive.

The militant camp feels the only way to right the wrong they perceive is
through positive action and active repression of the repressors. The inclusive
camp feels that incremental change that improves the injustice they see will,
given enough time, right the wrong without the need for punitive actions.

This has been the case with civil rights (MLK vs Black Panthers),
environmentalism (WWF vs GreenPeace), animal rights (ASPCA vs PETA), and on,
and on...

If I had to guess, I'd suppose that activists tend to break down along these
lines because those they oppose break down in a similar fashion. There will be
those who embrace the injustice and actively defend its existence. Then there
will be those who don't perceive the injustice, or don't recognize its
severity, but are open minded and willing to change.

I point this out, because I think it's useful to recognize these camps and to
which you belong. I'm not willing to say one is right and the other is wrong.
I suspect both are necessary to some degree. But if you look at the whole
discourse in question here, some of the most disheartening exchanges are
between individuals on the same side of the issue, but in different camps.

~~~
Edvik
My impression was that the problem with the original post was a denial
accepting a change, which the author took to mean a militant exclusion of
gender neutral language.

The author wasn't taking a militant stand against someone who simply writes
gendered language, but against someone who made a decision to exclude gender-
neutral language specifically.

~~~
jballanc
I think the other feature of these two camps is that they tend to see the
opposition through the mirror of their own preconceptions. I took the pull
request rejection at face value: "trivial change; denied". I don't agree with
the policy, but I did not sense any overt anti-gender-parity agenda in the
action.

That the author of the pull request viewed this action as a militant attack
tells me, with some measure of certainty, to which camp they belong.

~~~
Edvik
It's a matter of degree then. Saying "doing work to change pronouns isn't
worth it to me" is one thing - you may find the benefits of that too trivial
to be worth your time.

Rejecting (multiple times) work that has already been done for you leans much
more in the direction of some sort of agenda.

------
k-mcgrady
Wow, the response from Joyent seems ridiculous. Saying you would fire someone
(who doesn't even work for you) when you haven't even asked them why they did
what they did is stupid. You're overreacting, doing it without full
information, and doing it publicly. It seems even worse when you read the
response from Ben:
[https://github.com/joyent/libuv/pull/1015#issuecomment-29568...](https://github.com/joyent/libuv/pull/1015#issuecomment-29568172)

NB: I don't know much/anything about Joyent/Ben so my perspective is just from
what I've read on GitHub and this post.

~~~
chris_wot
Even more ridiculous when you realise that the one threatening the "firing" is
Bryan Cantrill, who once wrote this (scroll to the bottom):

[http://cryptnet.net/mirrors/texts/kissedagirl.html](http://cryptnet.net/mirrors/texts/kissedagirl.html)

~~~
girvo
People can change their opinions on "gender equality", especially after 17
years...

~~~
nailer
I don't think Cantrill's "have you ever kissed a girl" had much to do with
gender equality [1]. It was just a low, personal attack on someone commenting
in explicit, researched detail on Solaris performance, made by someone who was
responsible for Solaris's (poor) performance.

[1] Some folk would argue heteronormativity, but that's also a different topic
from gender equality.

~~~
girvo
I put it in quotes because I didn't know the exact term I was looking for :)

------
jsnk
Ben Noordhuis ([https://github.com/bnoordhuis](https://github.com/bnoordhuis))
is the #3 contributor to Node.js making 1,315 commits since 2010. Now he is
openly called an asshole by a Joyent employee not over introducing critical
bugs, but rejecting doc change that has no impact on how people use Nodejs
whatsoever.

~~~
21echoes
> that has no impact on how people use Nodejs whatsoever.

... except people who actually read the code and documentation ...

~~~
chris_wot
No, it still has no impact on how people use Nodejs whatsoever.

~~~
nailer
Some folk would argue that women reading the node docs (edit: source) would
get the idea that Node devs think of themselves as being all male.

(for the record, I would have merged the request, as I like small fixes and
think it's a good change, but I think Joyent's lynching of Ben is disgraceful)

~~~
chris_wot
Likewise, I would have merged it also. I still don't think it affected the way
that they would _use_ Nodejs though.

------
chris_wot
So let me just understand something - Bryan Cantrill, oh he of the "Ever
kissed a girl" fame [1], is now lecturing someone about gendered pronouns?

And now we are all up in arms?

Remarkable.

1\.
[http://cryptnet.net/mirrors/texts/kissedagirl.html](http://cryptnet.net/mirrors/texts/kissedagirl.html)

~~~
jacalata
He must have grown up a little in the last 16 years, good for him.

~~~
chris_wot
16 years, no apology. Willing to "fire" someone over a misunderstanding over a
documentation update. Who doesn't work for his company.

That's quite some stunted growing up going on there!

------
andrewl-hn
In Russian, a simple phrase like "Another bright student has solved the
problem" (другая способная студентка решила задачу for female) carries a point
to a gender in EVERY word. All the things around one like doors, tables,
computers, etc. also possess a gender. Trying to convert Russian phrases to a
gender-neutral is almost never possible.

~~~
jacalata
That will probably seem more relevant when someone tries to translate the
libuv docs to Russian, or when somebody complains that a Russian sentence
should use gender neutral pronouns in some software docs. I don't really think
it is relevant right now.

~~~
lukaseder
I find it relevant. For a non-native English speaker (Ben, the "offender"),
Him or Them seems not as relevant as to the people trying to burn him at stake
for the offence.

What this comment about Russian is saying is that these things are very
delicate to get right. In some languages even more than in others

~~~
jacalata
If I were a non native speaker faced with a small text edit that I didn't
understand the reason for but which many people had just gotten angry about, I
would probably not publicly revert it. If Ben wishes to blame his poor English
skills (and I have not seen him suggest this, only people hypothesizing on his
behalf) then I would suggest he become more aware of his weaknesses and not
appoint himself judge of things he doesn't understand.

~~~
lukaseder
This is Ben's latest position from 5hrs ago:

[https://github.com/joyent/libuv/pull/1015#issuecomment-29568...](https://github.com/joyent/libuv/pull/1015#issuecomment-29568172)

Until that moment, I don't think he was even asked what his position was and
why he acted the way he did.

~~~
jacalata
Thanks, I hadn't seen that. That seems quite reasonable and he admits he
didn't understand the point of the request, and that he shouldn't have
reverted it. Pretty classy work.

------
rurounijones
"to reject a pull request that eliminates a gendered pronoun on the principle
that pronouns should in fact be gendered would constitute a fireable offense
for me and for Joyent."

I, uh, what?! maybe a quick chat first?

~~~
lukaseder
Precisely! :-)

------
nkuttler
Almost everybody seems to forget that simply merging the pull request is only
a temporary solution. It places an additional burden on the developer, who is
neither a native English speaker nor necessarily interested in learning a
politically correct lingo.

Anybody who comes with such changes should already have proven that they are
willing and able to contribute long term to the documentation. This doesn't
seem to be the case here.

------
frobozz
> “Him” or “They”? English language aficionados haven’t yet decided what to do
> with a singular pronoun of unknown (or irrelevant) sex.

Since this usage of _they_ has been around for at least 600 years, they're
clearly taking their own sweet time over this decision.

~~~
qbrass
They is, not they are. Oh wait, you meant they as a group.

It would be better if one could use a pronoun that is gender neutral and
unambiguously singular.

~~~
frobozz
How often have you seen a "they" whose antecedent might have been either?

------
konstruktor
Writing gender neutral texts is much easier in English than in my native
language. So please, don't hide your dislike for gender neutral language
behind a pseudo-concern for non-native speakers. I find that quite
patronising.

~~~
jballanc
...and what of languages that have no gendered pronouns? For native speakers,
constructing a gender neutral sentence in English is considerably more
difficult. Your experience does not invalidate the experience of others.

~~~
andrewl-hn
Yes! Besides, the idea of "gender neutrality in speech" might not be as widely
spread and heavily discussed in Netherlands as in the US society.

~~~
danieldk
It is certainly not a frequent topic in The Netherlands. Some people will say
hij/zij ('he/she') or explicitly use 'zij'. But both feel a bit awkward,
because 'hij' (he) has been used in a gender-specific and neutral sense.

------
skore
Reinforces one of my golden rules for internet discussions:

Gender Discussions on the Internet - Not even once.

------
static_typed
Wow - just read a more recent comment from Ben here:
[https://github.com/joyent/libuv/pull/1015#issuecomment-29568...](https://github.com/joyent/libuv/pull/1015#issuecomment-29568172)

The sad part of it all this: "I'm probably going to step back from libuv and
node.js core development. I do it more out a sense of duty than anything else.
If this is what I have to deal with, then I'd just as rather do something
else. "

Joyent - well done - you have shown potential customers to now be wary of
becoming too entangled in your products or ecospace, lest they get bitten by
the effects of your blog space comments and the ramifications of these.

Joyent - well done - you have shown open source developers you would fire them
(how?) before you would establish the facts. Developers - be wary here before
you selflessly give your time and effort to these projects.

The lynch mob on the internet - shame on you all. There was no issue here for
you to shout and scream about, let alone bring out your virtual portable
gallows. What ever happened to benefit of the doubt? For shame. The sad part
is that there are real gender issues out there, but instead of spending the
time and effort on those, where they do actually exist, you spent it on here,
on this, which was more a poor communication at best, a minor issue of lack of
respect amongst fellow developers at a stretch, but not, and never a sexism or
gender issue.

~~~
danieldk
In fact, Joyent practically did was character assassination. Every time
potential future employers will Google Ben Noordhuis' name, they will be wary.

In such cases, the best thing to do first is to _talk_ to the person for
clarification. You know, sending an e-mail or giving a phone call. But,
apparently it's easier, more beneficial or more fun to destroy a person's
reputation.

Ps. I am all in for gender equality and restoring the balance in our field.
But I heavily dislike the lynching these days, before even talking to the
person and giving him/her the opportunity to apologize if there was indeed a
misstep.

~~~
catwell
I think you should all read this article again:
[http://venturebeat.com/2013/09/18/can-this-startup-steal-
nod...](http://venturebeat.com/2013/09/18/can-this-startup-steal-node-from-
joyent-vcs-bet-8m-on-it/)

The reason this escalated so quickly is not gender issues. This is a power
play between the two largest corporate contributors of NodeJS...

~~~
lukaseder
So instead of talking about the bikeshed, we should be talking about wagging
the dog?

Tthat link is probably _the_ most interesting insight so far in this
discussion!

