
I've finally found a Windows laptop worth ditching the MacBook for - Fnoord
https://char.gd/blog/2018/ive-finally-found-a-macbook-replacement-that-doesnt-suck
======
overcast
The site is down, but we're talking hardware here right? If it can't run MacOS
natively, what's the point? I'm not buying Apple stuff necessarily because of
the nice form factor, I'm buying it for Unix environment that doesn't suck.

~~~
onlyrealcuzzo
Ubuntu doesn't suck.

~~~
barrowclift
I agree, it’s not fair to say it sucks. However, there is something to be said
for having a Unix-based OS without having to sacrifice first-party apps. While
Ubuntu and some other flavors have certainly gotten increased support from big
players over the years (like Steam), for lots of people there’s still no
substitute for the immediately available first party apps on Windows and
macOS.

------
blunte
I've been living on a high end Dell XPS laptop for several months, and it's
just simply not as good as my 2014 MBP in most ways. The Dell screen is
exceptional and the keyboard is pretty ok, but I have never used a trackpad as
good as on the Mac.

Then when you talk about Windows vs MacOS, I could write a huge long list of
reasons life (my life) is so much more productive and less sucky on the Mac.

I think the people that prefer PCs are people using just one or two programs
that happen to work well there (or games). But try a wide variety of
activities and you find so many little rough edges and missing
features/integrations compared to MacOS.

Then if you're a developer targeting Linux for production, there's just no
question that your life will be less painful if you're developing in MacOS
compared to Windows. I have gotten most things to work eventually in Windows,
but it will often be the last platform supported by a given language or set of
dev tools. WSL is much better than nothing, but it's not a complete answer
(yet... ever...?)

~~~
xenophonf
Macs are OK standalone machines, I guess, but client-side caching plus roaming
profiles and folder redirection are _the_ killer Windows features for me. The
macOS UX for mobile users just isn't as good, and there isn't anything even
close to equivalent on FreeBSD/Linux. Now, if only more Windows apps would
stop putting caches and temp files in %APPDATA% or installing stuff in
%USERPROFILE%... that's what %LOCALAPPDATA% is for! (Firefox, Factorio, npm,
maven---I'm talking about you, among many others.)

~~~
blunte
I should add that I'm very happy with the direction MS has taken (after
Ballmer left...)

On the other hand, for daily use, Windows 7 was snappier and less in my way
than win10 is. Some changes really feel like steps backward.

------
bananatron
As others have said, Windows is the issue with windows computers.

OSX has plenty of flaws, but it (generally) stays out of your way, is a less
hostile development environment, and is compatible with all the things you
need. I feel like the Linux folks are attacking this problem by trying to
create distros that are easier and easier to use, which is great, but it
doesn't solve the compatibility piece, which is this weird chicken and egg
thing (consumers still don't want to figure out how to use Wine). Luckily,
gaming seems to be making progress here?

~~~
sahaskatta
Windows now has Linux support built-in. No VMs or dual-booting needed.
[https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/wsl/install-
win10](https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/wsl/install-win10)

~~~
glogla
Linux support doesn't help with unstoppable telemetry, Candy Crush ads in
start menu, and updates that run without asking and destroy your work.

------
booleandilemma
I’d pay for a laptop without a webcam. Before smartphones a laptop with a
webcam was nice, but I find whenever I’m video calling someone nowadays it’s
through my phone.

Take the webcams out of laptops and you can have a thin bezel without awkward
webcam placement.

~~~
twiss
If you don't care about the webcam, why do you care about its placement?

~~~
larrik
Because it makes the bezel thicker than he wants.

------
p33p
Dell XPS 15 9560 model, with Intel's quad-core i7 7700HQ processor, 32 GB of
RAM and a Nvidia GTX 1050 graphics chip.

Is it really a hardware issue though? Seems more like a MacOS vs Windows
problem.

~~~
bobowzki
I bought an Dell XPS and was very disappointed with the quality. Especially
the horrible coil whine made me return it.

~~~
Boulth
I have the same experience with XPS 13 9350. Coil whine is unbearable and
that's one of its many issues.

------
linsomniac
I've been tempted by Mac partly because of the beautiful display partly
because I'm tired of fiddling around to get various Linux bits to work exactly
as I want. I'd have to give up some of my customization, but controlling the
hardware and software should make it seamless.

Current problem: My ThinkPad docking station has a GPU multiplexer that
prevents it from being able to drive two external monitors. Doesn't look like
there's a solution at all.

The solution I've ended up on is a HP 13 G1 Chromebook. 95% of what I need to
do at home I can do there or SSHed in to my AWS machine: OpenVPN to work, SSH
to work, all the stuff in the browser.

My requirements at home are fairly minimal these days. To the point that I
just have a base Ubuntu 18.04 install on the ThinkPad with OpenVPN set up and
some keys.

This has been an ongoing experiment and it honestly is working out amazingly.
This is very good hardware, great display (3200x1800), no worries about the
software. It was $500 refurb, and I've been very happy with it. Around the
same time I got an Acer for around $250 and the hardware was nowhere near as
good.

Depending on what you need to do with it, a Chromebook might do the job.

~~~
Mister_Snuggles
> Current problem: My ThinkPad docking station has a GPU multiplexer that
> prevents it from being able to drive two external monitors. Doesn't look
> like there's a solution at all.

Which ThinkPad do/did you have?

I'm not a ThinkPad fan, but a lot of my co-workers have ThinkPad X1s with a
docking station and are able to drive two external monitors plus the built-in
display. Most use Windows, some use Linux, all seem to work fine.

I'm using a 2017 15" MacBook Pro and am able to drive two external monitors
plus the built-in display as well. This requires a couple of adapters, but
I've got it down to one thing that needs to be plugged in. It's very flaky
though.

Honestly, the ThinkPads my co-workers use do this a lot better than the MBP
does.

~~~
linsomniac
T470s

------
CocoaGeek
I have (the now older) XPS 13 with Ubuntu 18.04 and it's awesome. The infamous
coil whines were a bit of a bummer but since upgrading (from 17.10) to 18.04,
I haven't heard it again ...

~~~
jason_slack
I have a T240 with 8gb RAM and an SSD. How do you think it would work for c++
development on Ubuntu?

------
gh0s_t
I came for MacOS, but the trackpad/scrolling is what prevents me from being
able to use any other laptop. The scroll on MacOS is just so much more fluid
than any other OS, any time I use a different operating system I feel like I
added a 30fps cap or something... So choppy.

------
deltron3030
You can get very usable machines quite for cheap in the used market, and
basically use a dedicated machine for a task, without compromising on the
workflow or going against the grain. Like having a Thinkpad just for Vim or
CLI stuff, a Mac for A/V and graphic design, and a Windows machine for
everything 3d.

Owning and using three laptops sounds crazy, especially if you travel a lot,
but you could still launch Chrome on a Thinkpad and do most of the stuff that
falls outside of your main task, you could get away with just carrying one for
a trip!

Why wait for the holy grail if you could just treat your laptops as dedicated
hardware appliances optimized for each task?

------
bsder
The problem with a Windows laptop is Windows 10.

I'm tired of playing "Will I get to do what I want, or will I spend 40 minutes
waiting for Windows Update." I'm tired of "Windows Antimalware FooBarBaz"
chewing up 80% of my CPU and spinning my fans up. etc.

I use OS X because it mostly works and mostly stays the hell out of my way.

This is what the Linux Desktop folks never got. I don't want <jazz hands>
_SNAZZY_ </jazz hands>. I want mostly works and mostly stays the hell out of
my way.

Unfortunately, coding that is a lot of not very fun hard work.

------
piyh
Google cached version

[http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:KDcITNl...](http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:KDcITNlO8tAJ:https://char.gd/blog/2018/ive-
finally-found-a-macbook-replacement-that-doesnt-
suck&num=1&hl=en&gl=us&strip=1&vwsrc=0)

------
gambiting
Have they finally gotten rid of the persistent coil whine that plagued at
least 4 generations of XPS laptops? Because that is number 1 reason why I
would never recommend an XPS to anyone, if Dell can't get such a basic thing
right.

------
runjake
FWIW, my 2.8 ghz 2017 MacBook Pro 15" also has an i7-7700HQ[1], so Owen's
(still valid) performance argument boils down to the 32GB memory, the GTX 1050
GPU, and probably the performance pluses of running Windows 10.

I wager the MBP probably has a slightly faster SSD (but macOS and APFS's
performance penalties may nullify this hardware advantage).

If your use case does not need this level of performance, adjust your
perspective accordingly.

[1] Yeah, yeah, Dell will almost certainly beat Apple to market on Coffee Lake
processors. In fact, they're most likely already available in the XPS 15 line.

~~~
hatsix
The i7's in 15" macbooks are only quad-core, and while they can "boost" up to
3.9Ghz, the thermals of the laptop can't sustain that for long before dropping
down to 2.9Ghz

Meanwhile, the XPS has 6-core (Coffee Lake), and can sustain 4.1Ghz
indefinitely.

It's a very noticeable difference.

[http://cpu.userbenchmark.com/Compare/Intel-
Core-i7-8750H-vs-...](http://cpu.userbenchmark.com/Compare/Intel-
Core-i7-8750H-vs-Intel-Core-i7-7700HQ/m470418vsm211019)

------
gruez
cached:
[https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache%3Ahttp...](https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache%3Ahttps%3A%2F%2Fchar.gd%2Fblog%2F2018%2Five-
finally-found-a-macbook-replacement-that-doesnt-
suck&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&client=firefox)

------
ikeboy
I use an Inspiron Dell with similar specs, but it costs something like 1k vs
probably 2k for xps. Only thing it's missing is touch screen and it's thicker
which I don't care about.

Never really got the appeal of xps over same specced Inspiron, don't see
anything worth paying around twice the price for.

------
alphabettsy
Surely this horse is being beaten in the grave by now... Windows is part of
the problem, and that’s just one reason people choose Mac vs Windows.
Everything else is subjective since PC hardware has been up to par for like a
year now.

~~~
nottorp
Indeed, there is no Windows laptop worth switching to. But the XPS can run
Linux well, can't it?

~~~
sremani
One thing I found about most laptops out there is Linux power management is
not really great at least last time I tried. There is a perceivable difference
in Windows power management and Linux unless the laptop is explicitly
supported.

~~~
m4x
Power management seems to be poor on a fresh install of most distros, but all
you have to do is install tlp to dramatically improve battery life. On 16.04
all I had to do was install it. I didn't have to configure anything (or even
enable the service manually), and got dramatically better battery life than
under Windows.

When I installed 18.04 on my XPS 15 I had an issue with power consumption
being way too high even with tlp installed (13W on idle), but I used powerstat
to investigate and found that runtime power management was not being enabled
for my discrete GPU. The tlp defaults must have changed at some point between
16.04 and 18.04. So I set RUNTIME_PM_DRIVER_BLACKLIST="" in /etc/default/tlp
and now get <4.5W on idle, which gives about 12 hours of battery.

I would prefer for it all to work perfectly without any configuration, of
course, but then you have to accept ridiculously thin and overpriced hardware
from Apple :)

~~~
nottorp
The XPS looks thin and same-ish priced from here :)

Nevertheless, Apple continues to try to piss me off (keyboard gate anyone?) so
I'd better keep informed:

Does the XPS on Linux go to sleep when you close the lid and wake up when you
open it without incident? Network, sound etc continue to work without hassle?

~~~
m4x
Yes, suspend and resume works flawlessly. I almost never shut my XPS down, I
just close the lid and suspend when I'm not using it.

------
IshKebab
No word on the touchpad, which is where every single non-mac laptop I've ever
used has been awful.

------
platz
use a thinkpad

~~~
0creativity
With an unusable 16:9 screen. And with Lenovo's tendency to put in some of the
worst looking, cheapest screens. Yuk.

~~~
platz
> unusable

I'm genuinely curious what you use your computer for - what kind of work, or
if for entertainment etc..

~~~
0creativity
Programming, anything that involves more than sending a couple of emails
frankly.

------
KozmoNau7
Lenovo ThinkPad X- or T-series.

Install Linux or similarly mature desktop distro.

Done.

It's not that hard.

~~~
0creativity
Ugly 16:9 screens. No.

~~~
KozmoNau7
As long as you find one with decent vertical resolution, who cares? If you
need a good screen, you plug in an external monitor anyway.

Me, I'm perfectly OK with 12.5" at 1366x768, because anything that requires
more will be done on my 27" monitor anyway.

------
rasengan
I got one of these and put arch on it. It’s nice.

------
LeoPanthera
tl;dr: The Dell XPS 15. And yes, he's running Windows 10 on it.

Like probably a lot of other people, I buy Macs because they run macOS, and
not because the hardware is great. (Although most of the time, the hardware is
also great.)

~~~
sanderjd
I buy them almost entirely for the trackpad and the drivers that make it work
so well. Never found a non-Apple machine that comes close despite trying to
actively optimize for that single feature.

