
Hard to Believe: Film Explores Chinese Regime’s Killing of Prisoners for Organs - auganov
https://www.theepochtimes.com/hard-to-believe-film-explores-chinese-regimes-on-demand-killing-of-prisoners-for-their-organs_2487266.html
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downandout
From what I have seen of Xi Jinping, he looks, acts, and speaks like a
somewhat reasonable world leader. Certainly not the type of person capable of
allowing a horrific atrocity like this. Now all I will be able to picture when
I see him is Hitler, as this is the kind of thing that the Nazis did.

It does at least put the petty political squabbles we have in the US in
perspective. Say what you will about Trump - he isn't killing people and
cutting out their organs.

~~~
hutzlibu
"Now all I will be able to picture when I see him is Hitler, as this is the
kind of thing that the Nazis did."

You know how propaganda works?

If not, you should check it again, if you can change your view based on one
article. I'd like to see hard evidence first, before judging like that and
there is too much propaganda flying around at the moment, that I am hesistant
to believe that China is really "Killing innocent people on demand for their
organs on a mass scale".

No doubt, China _is_ doing horrible things, their whole fight against Falung
Gong etc. shows many of its ugly faces - and it is not the first time, I heard
from Organ-harvesting and selling in china - but hard evidence for that
claim("Killing innocent people on demand for their organs on a mass scale") is
something different.

Besides: "Say what you will about Trump - he isn't killing people and cutting
out their organs." Not that we know. But we do know, that your secret agencies
spy all over the world and hack and blackmail and abduct and torture and
assassinate and manipulate and also bomb whenever Pax America or some assets
of an important member are at risk. Not for democracy, nor human rights - but
plain material motivation.

So maybe resist the temptation to feel too righteous, living in "gods own
country" because your politicans seem a bit nicer than others. (in general
they are ... but also only if it suits them)

~~~
downandout
You're correct that I should have added the disclaimer "if this is true" to my
comment. A quick Google search before I made my comment seems to indicate that
it is true, although the government claims that they stopped this practice on
January 1, 2015 (which could be a total lie). Regardless of whether it's still
going on or not, they seem to admit that they at least used to do it. The
people involved in either allowing or carrying it out are nothing more than
monsters. The fact that they _may_ have bowed to public pressure to stop this
does not change that.

 _> So maybe resist the temptation to feel too righteous, living in "gods own
country" because your politicans seem a bit nicer than others._

I said nothing about god in my comment. I simply meant that I am grateful to
live in a country where our biggest fears fall far short of worrying that we
will be carved up for parts by our government.

~~~
hutzlibu
" A quick Google search before I made my comment seems to indicate that it is
true, although the government claims that they stopped this practice on
January 1, 2015 "

for this claim?

"Killing innocent people on demand for their organs on a mass scale"

I doubt it.

"I said nothing about god in my comment. I simply meant that I am grateful to
live in a country where our biggest fears fall far short of worrying that we
will be carved up for parts by our government."

I know, that was a bit hyperbolic. But I am quite sure also the common chinese
person is not "worrying that he will be carved up for parts by his
government", because the common chinese person is not Falung Gong.

And the common US-Person is not muslim. Because they do sweat from time to
time I suppose, especially when visiting relatives in Pakistan. Or living in a
poor black neighborhood - and have your house mistakenly raided. Those things
do happen in your country, despite you feeling quite safe.

------
sabalaba
Epoch Times is founded by and run by Falun Gong members. Just keep in mind
that anything they publish is extremely biased towards an anti-PRC stance. In
the same way that you should keep in mind that consuming media from Voice of
America or RT is respectively biased towards a pro-American and pro-Russian
stance.

~~~
auganov
Keep in mind sabalaba has an ongoing business interest in the PRC. The company
they co-founded touts the CCP-aligned Tencent as one of it's customers. Per
own bio, sabalaba has also co-founded a Beijing based incubator.

~~~
hutzlibu
Oh I will, but he is nevertheless right, when he warns of propaganda, right?

I mean, he forgot to include the chinese media as possible biased towards
china, but I read it like he is also very aware of that fact.

~~~
auganov
Kind of. Likening Falun Gong v. China to USA v. Russia is misleading. Nation
state conflicts are usually pretty mutli-dimensional. Economy, geopolitics,
ideology, religion etc. The strife between the Falun Gong and China is limited
to the issue of systematic murder and opression of their followers.
Furthermore the characterization of Falun Gong as a well defined organization
with concrete political or ideological goals is in-line with CCP propaganda.

Say somebody calls out a Jewish publication for having an anti-Nazi stance.
Surely, it's likely to be true at face value. Yet it's hard not to notice the
insidiousness.

Unless sabalaba is willing to damage their business interest, their only
choice is to remain silent or take a stance the CCP doesn't mind.

------
JudasGoat
I would hope this will shame western corporations that contribute to China's
surveillance machine. China is a large and potentially lucrative market. How
much profit is one life worth?

------
oceanman888
I know this is really fucked up but this inspired me to come up with presale
of human organ: ie, You sign to give up your organs when you decease, and get
paid while you are alive.

~~~
baud147258
The problem is that the company?/agency? paying for your organs can't know
that they will be usable or even that you will die in a way that your organs
can be retreived. I had a discussion with a medical student, where she
explained that not all deaths results in a body that from which organs could
be used. The discussion was prompted by a recent law that made citizens of our
country organ donor by default (if you don't have a card stating you're not an
organ donor or if you haven't registered as not an organ donor, you're
considered one) and she said that death where the organs could be used where
way less frequent.

Edit: yes, the family/relatives are consulted before

~~~
oceanman888
-> (if you don't have a card stating you're not an organ donor or if you haven't registered as not an organ donor, you're considered one).

That does not sounds right. (default is not donating here in JP) but I am sure
relatives are consulted about this.

->she said that death where the organs could be used where way less frequent.

Interesting, though you need the numbers to find out whether you can make
profit out of it.(How often do people need an organ transplant?)(I assume if
this is to be real, you would "buy" organs from 3rd world countries(where a
few hundred dollars mean a lot to them) and sell the organs at the states.)

------
JudasGoat
As to the moral quality of people that are exploited for their organs, please
remember all that they have to do to escape their fate is to sign a
renunciation of Falun Gong. A little different than common criminals.

------
oceanman888
"Killing prisoner for organs" is click-bait.

Whether it is OK arresting and killing Falungon believers is a different
story.

They are only harvesting from dead bodies here. Seems there are countries
where you donate your organs automatically if you die in an accident.

Not to say executing for profit is not a possibility.

PS. In China donating organ is considered taboo traditionally.

~~~
nicolas_t
That's the thing. I fully believe that the Chinese government might harvest
organs after execution... But if they stopped that practice because of foreign
pressure, they wouldn't necessarily stop executing members of Falun Gong
because they consider any form of religion with a cult of personality to be a
threat.

Pragmatically, if those people still get executed anyway because of their
religion (and that's unlikely to stop), is the world a better place if they
harvest organs and save some people with them or is it a better place if they
throw away those organs and don't save anyone with them?

The only argument against that I can think of is that the profit made from
organ reselling could cause more people to be executed than would normally be
the case but I wonder how true that is.

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lopmotr
Not to deny the moral hazard of using prisoners for organs, but being a Falun
Gong member in China is like being an active ISIS member in the US/UK.
Whatever's right or wrong, you know you're committing a crime and you're
taking a risk by participating. Keeping safe is a matter of following the law
even if you don't believe in it.

~~~
scandox
Moral hazard? Moral Hazard puts one in the way of making an immoral choice.
Surely killing people to take their body parts represents an actual immoral
action? I didn't miss a memo or anything?

~~~
wisty
They don't kill people to take body parts. They execute convicted criminals,
and those prisoners automatically become organ donors.

One example of the potential moral hazard is that maybe there's some
corruption (maybe there's some profit being made, and judges could get
kickbacks on the number of times they execute prisoners).

~~~
growlix
Who decided what constitutes a crime, and who gets convicted and executed?
China isn't exactly known for the fairness of its justice system.

And the quantity, youth, and low latency of organs for transplant exclude
every possibility except harvesting.

