
Facebook Is Deleting Accounts at the Direction of the US and Israeli Governments - user982
https://theintercept.com/2017/12/30/facebook-says-it-is-deleting-accounts-at-the-direction-of-the-u-s-and-israeli-governments/
======
meshr
Here is funny story how it works in reality:

12/23/2017 Facebook banned the page of the Kremlin-backed Chechen leader
Kadyrov (he has more power than police in Russia). FB said “that the accounts
appear to be maintained by or on behalf of parties who appear on the U.S.
Specially Designated Nationals List and thus, subject to U.S. trade
sanctions." [1]

12/24/2017 Russian airline company registered FB page with the same name to
get all traffic of the banned page.[2]

12/30/2017 Kadyrov makes this company to return this page back to him. The
page is returned back to Chechen Republic[3].

Now FB is violating their TOS for transferring accounts and U.S. trade
sanctions.

[1] [https://www.rferl.org/a/facebook-instagram-kadyrov-
chechnya-...](https://www.rferl.org/a/facebook-instagram-kadyrov-chechnya-
blocked-us-sanctions/28944406.html)

[2] [https://meduza.io/en/news/2017/12/28/an-airline-makes-the-
mo...](https://meduza.io/en/news/2017/12/28/an-airline-makes-the-most-of-
ramzan-kadyrov-s-facebook-ban)

[3] [https://fb.com/rkadyrov95](https://fb.com/rkadyrov95)

------
saas_co_de
There is no way Facebook can satisfy the competing demands of different
political factions and their own users so the more they capitulate to
political demands the more users they will drive away and the more radical the
demands on them will become.

Hopefully this intensifies their downward spiral into irrelevance.

~~~
yakitori
> There is no way Facebook can satisfy the competing demands of different
> political factions and their own users so the more they capitulate to
> political demands the more users they will drive away and the more radical
> the demands on them will become.

Yep. This is why FB, GOOGL, etc needed to be "neutral". The day they caved in
is the day their "promise" ended. The demands of censorship will continue. FB
is deluding themselves if they think this is a one time deal. And not only
that, other countries will start barring FB/GOOGL/etc when it becomes apparent
that they are essentially biased political tools.

~~~
zionic
IMO, the solution to this is to develop FOSS platforms that run similar to a
mesh network, yet to the common user look like an app or a website.

Russia can't direct "BitTorrent" to do something.

And really, it seems like social networks are perfect for these kinds of swarm
P2P systems where the protocol is some evolving standard and various clients
can interact with it.

~~~
davidcbc
How are you going to get people to use your platform? That's the problem with
all of these "Facebook but better!" ideas, the killer feature of a social
network is the people and Facebook has them.

------
prove_np
It sad to see such an article in the top posts at HW... I wouldn't even bother
to reply if not for good people getting the wrong picture on what's going on.
Yes, Facebook does delete posts (Nothing new so far), though only ones which
violate Facebook's rules. I live in Israel and not once I've been shown some
horrible video of Palestinians attacking locals. I'm not here to blame, nor
generalize. I'm saying that this case is nothing special, but rather any other
case of posts violating Facebook's rules only in a larger scale and at a
specific target, Israel. For what it's worth, the hatred being published about
Israel does not go the other way around. I, and many others, do respect and
have no hate for Palestinians. We do have some radicals though, but just like
in any other society. The sad part of the story is we get casualties on a
daily-basis. Almost every week you hear of a terror attack in any part of the
country. Most of the attackers are of young age, some of them even take
advantage of their youth for lighter punishments. Both sides are losing
people, no doubt. But at the end of the day, what's happening is chaos in our
streets being done by /any person/ from the other side who feels like it and
go on a killing-spree and yet we get slandered over false accusations on the
Internet which pictures a wrong description of the situation. I've yet to
witness the same brutality being manifested against us the Israelis but to
Palestinians on the streets. I wouldn't go talking about IDF besides saying
you would laugh if you knew how many restrictions an IDF solider has in any
situations /even if his life is in danger/. TLDR; Do not believe /everything/
you read on the internet. Regardless of the publisher's reputation.

~~~
goatsi
>For what it's worth, the hatred being published about Israel does not go the
other way around. I, and many others, do respect and have no hate for
Palestinians.

The article does disagree with that view.

>As Al Jazeera reported last year, “Inflammatory speech posted in the Hebrew
language . . . has attracted much less attention from the Israeli authorities
and Facebook. One study found that ‘122,000 users directly called for violence
with words like ‘murder’, ‘kill’, or ‘burn.’ Arabs were the No 1 recipients of
hateful comments. Yet there appears to be little effort by Facebook to censor
any of that.”

Have you noticed comments like this? Have you ever seen them deleted or
Israeli accounts suspended for hateful language?

~~~
LorenPechtel
Remember who owns Al Jazeeera.

Hint: A terrorist sponsor.

~~~
lostlogin
A strict definition sees many governments tarred with this brush, with the US,
Russia, UK being stand outs. Others see the terrorists as freedom fighting,
and they have some good points. This line of arguing achieves nothing, but
that’s the point isn’t it?

AJ has some of the best reporting about, but attacking the messenger and not
the message is far easier isn’t it?

~~~
ars
AJ threw a birthday part for a terrorist who murdered children:

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oFWVkSU3ic4](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oFWVkSU3ic4)

> but attacking the messenger

They are not a messenger but are full party to praising those who would
_proudly_ kill children. I know the US has killed children in conflicts, but
the US isn't proud of it, they don't celebrate it.

> Others see the terrorists as freedom fighting

No. This is false. No one sees terrorists as freedom fighting, except for
those who support them.

A terrorist is a terrorist. Period. Calling them freedom fighters is utterly
repulsive, and whitewashing things like "killing a 4 year old girl by smashing
her skull against the rocks with the butt of his rifle." Yes, that is the
loathsome creature who AJ celebrated.

Tell me how that is freedom fighting? I challenge you - tell me, exactly how
that is freedom fighting. I await your answer.

~~~
lostlogin
“I await your answer”. Really?

Yes, Palestinians think freedom is worth fighting for. That man didn’t help
his cause. This is not related to the issue though is it? AJ cover issues in
the region better than many news orgs.

~~~
ars
> Yes, Palestinians think freedom is worth fighting for.

And I guess that includes killing 4 year old girls?

And that's it? That's your feeble defense? "That man didn’t help his cause."
No condemnation, no, "this is not what Palestinian are."

But of course you don't, because you can't, because this is the kind of offal
Palestinians value. People who kill 4 year olds and rejoice in it.

If only this was some sort of one-off, that it was not representative, that it
was just "didn't help his cause". But it's not, this is the kind of behavior
Palestinians delight in. For example that guy who stabbed a young girl to
death in her bed. Did they condemn that, or did they celebrate that?

You know the answer very well.

> This is not related to the issue though is it?

Of course is it. If AJ is going to throw that human excrement a birthday party
then that are almost as loathsome as he is.

No one should ever read them again, that have removed themself from civilized
life. Anything they say should be assumed false unless otherwise proven.

> AJ cover issues in the region better than many news orgs.

Only if by better you mean "praising and valuing terrorism".

If you are a Palestinian that it must suck to know you are by extension part
of a group that is this horrible. I know very well not all Palestinians are
this bad. Unfortunately the majority are. The fact that you don't condemn, and
you even try to defend, them disturbs me though....

~~~
lostlogin
It’s intersting the way you shut down any discussion of Israeli wrongs, but
broaden discussion on any opposing views even if off topic (ie story isn’t
valid as it’s from AJ). It’s almost as though you have a vested interest in
one sides view only.

A constructive approach is needed by both sides, not more of the same. You are
desperate for a finger pointing fight and seem to be hoping to vilify me for
being Palestinian. Why?

~~~
ars
> It’s intersting the way you shut down any discussion of Israeli wrongs

I made absolutely no mention of Israel at all.

> ie story isn’t valid as it’s from AJ

Correct. You need another source. By supporting a murderer AJ has removed
themself from civilized discourse.

> be hoping to vilify me for being Palestinian. Why?

Hoping to? Dude, you refused to condemn someone who killed a 4 year old by
bashing her head in!!

What is wrong with you?

(If you refuse to condemn that, I guess it makes sense you would support AJ.)

Before I say another word to you I want to hear an unequivocal condemnation of
that terrorist, and an unequivocal condemnation of AJ for throwing him a
birthday party.

If you refuse to do that you have removed yourself from the realm of civilized
people and I want nothing to do with you.

~~~
lostlogin
Wow.

> I made absolutely no mention of Israel at all.

I refer to the thread as a whole, not just comments to me.

You’re obsessed with a bad guy who did bad things that is irrelevant to the
thread, so of course I don’t join your soirée into the irrelevant (my race?
Really?).

You keep arguing about the messenger, not the message. Dispute the message
with a contrary link, not an attack on the messenger. There is a term for this
style of argument.

------
EGreg
This is what happens when everyone relies on some centralized global social
network for their communications, instead of something they run locally on
their own mesh network.

[https://qbix.com/blog/index.php/2017/12/power-to-the-
people/](https://qbix.com/blog/index.php/2017/12/power-to-the-people/)

[https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=WzMm7-j7yIY](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=WzMm7-j7yIY)

------
Animats
Censorship has become far too easy, with a few key players in a position to
muzzle vast numbers of others. The Internet wasn't supposed to work this way.

~~~
wavefunction
Censorship can only be committed by the government. The fact that facebook is
complying with requests from governments is both the right and responsibility
of facebook.

~~~
dragonwriter
> Censorship can only be committed by the government.

False. Heck, the modern understanding of censorship is strongly influenced by
the (officially, still continuing, but greatly reduced in significance even
within the Catholic community) official censorship practice of the Catholic
Church.

Now, there are certainly consideration that apply tomstaye censorship that may
not apply equally to non-state censorship, but state censorship isn't the only
kind of censorship.

~~~
ENOTTY
The Catholic church was the government in large parts of the western world
back in the day.

~~~
dragonwriter
No, it wasn't. The Catholic Church had separate-from-the-state but binding
authority in some areas of life, and something like extraterritoriality in
much of the Western world, but it wasn't the government ever over any but a
few relatively small parts of the Western World (well, technically, never over
any of it, though certain clerical positions were conjoined to positions of
state authority, either lower in the feudal heirarchy or, occasionally, actual
sovereignties like the papal states or one of the co-princes of Andorra.)

------
Sir_Cmpwn
So I was initially bearish on it, but I tried out Diaspora today. It's
actually quite nice! I have started the laborous process of getting my family
on it. I'm pitching it to them as Facebook like it was in the mid/late-2000's,
but has no ads, isn't run for profit, no creepy big brother vibes, and there
are only people on it (no stupid pages, brands, etc).

~~~
mr_spothawk
if you're into this sort of thing, check out Scuttlebutt::SSB/Patchwork

------
0xBA5ED
>96 percent of Palestinians said their primary use of Facebook was for
following news

This is astounding to me given the likelihood of Facebook's unspoken
allegiances and their history with respect to censorship.

~~~
beagle3
While I agree, i’m Not familiar with even remotely neutral sources in Arabic;
on one side you have a Hamas/Fatah “Iraqi information minister”’style
reporting, and on the other side you have the Israeli reporting in Arabic.
Facebook, despite being more closely aligned with Israel, and having the
history of a Skinner box operator, is still more likely to bring news vetted
by their friends with some commentary.

Very sadly, it might actually be their best source of news.

~~~
lithos
"History"? it should be something closer to "reality of being a Skinner box
operator".

------
inglor
Facebook is deleting accounts that violate its ToS, governments (not just the
US and Israeli ones) report accounts that constitute a violation of their laws
all the time and Facebook removes those.

Common examples are pages promoting illegal activities in a country - like
drug dealing, weapons trade etc.

~~~
lostlogin
Or promoting Palestinian civil rights.
[http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2016/10/facebook-targeting-
pal...](http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2016/10/facebook-targeting-palestinian-
accounts-161019063930119.html)

------
linkmotif
> “Israeli security agencies monitor Facebook and send the company posts they
> consider incitement. Facebook has responded by removing most of them.”

Maybe because they are incitement? This kind of thing isn’t incitement?
[https://goo.gl/images/oknvLC](https://goo.gl/images/oknvLC) many other
examples catalogued here: [http://m.jpost.com/Arab-Israeli-Conflict/Social-
media-playin...](http://m.jpost.com/Arab-Israeli-Conflict/Social-media-
playing-central-role-in-Palestinian-incitement-during-terror-wave-426090) the
incitement to violence is real. Love how Greenwald glosses over this as
insignificant. In his world view, Israelis should just accept social media
posts that incite murdering them, because Israelis are big bad guys.

~~~
saagarjha
I believe the article was trying to show how these rules were being applied
unevenly, rather than trying to legitimize incitement.

~~~
linkmotif
Maybe, except this is what Glen Greenwald writes instead:

> Last March, Facebook briefly shut down the Facebook page of the political
> party, Fatah, followed by millions, “because of an old photo posted of
> former leader Yasser Arafat holding a rifle.”

which is on the soft side of what Israel contests is incitement (see my post
above, or Google for more examples, there are many).

------
jstewartmobile
Not good, though compared to the mainstream media lockdown I grew up under
with uncle Walt and its " _we 've always been at war with eastasia_" coverage,
we live in charmed times.

I first saw this article _on Facebook_.

------
toAnswerIt
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CUZaR3op1qw](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CUZaR3op1qw)
the amount of revisionism that Israel and USA engaged in is absurd. they even
hire students to brigade social media
[https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2013/08/14/israel-...](https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2013/08/14/israel-
students-social-media/2651715/)

------
MollyR
Not surprising. What is surprising is why more world governments don't
aggressively clamp down and fine facebook.

~~~
caseysoftware
According to the article, 96% of Palestinian Facebook users primarily use it
to get news.

So why clamp down and fine if you can _threaten_ to fine and help shape what
is displayed to who? It seems like a much more effective approach since there
are few other sites, sources, etc that everyone visits.

At that point, it comes down to who has the biggest hammer or budget.

------
mannyk7
It almost makes sense for all civilized societies to threat those who incite
violence as a threat to the stability of the society.

But we can look deeper. Violence is usually a symptom of a disease and not
necessarily a contagious disease itself that need to be purged.

It's a test of will for a nation state to properly handle dissenting voices.

------
horsecaptin
Hah, jokes on you Facebook. I deleted my own account!

------
Protostome
Where is the proof that the Israeli officials are directly involved in closing
these accounts? Couldn't find any in the article.

~~~
forapurpose
I don't know what you mean by proof, but it's filled with information that
supports the claim. For example,

 _Israeli Justice Minister Ayelet Shaked said Tel Aviv had submitted 158
requests to the social media giant over the previous four months asking it to
remove content it deemed “incitement.” She said Facebook had granted 95
percent of the requests._

~~~
this2shallPass
This information does support the claim that the Israeli government submitted
requests to Facebook. I wonder if Facebook publishes information on how many
requests each government makes.

Aside: It's funny the article says Tel Aviv submitted the requests, when the
office is in Jerusalem
[http://www.justice.gov.il/ContactUs/Pages/default.aspx](http://www.justice.gov.il/ContactUs/Pages/default.aspx).
Subtle.

~~~
gridaphobe
It’s standard to use the capital city to refer to the actions of a state. Tel
Aviv is the internationally accepted capital of Israel, not Jerusalem.

~~~
dogma1138
Tel Aviv is not the capital city of Israel to anyone but to the Arab media.

In fact this isn’t even a reference to the capital but how the Arab media
refers to Israel in order not to recognize it.

I can guarantee to you that the original quote was “Israel or The Israeli
government has submitted...”

AJ is just doing their creative editing.

I wonder if they’ll publish the posts again last time it had nothing to do
with human rights unless the right to stab people is a human right now.

------
yakitori
No kidding. And the media is attacking social media at the behest of both
governments.

------
dogma1138
And German, French, British and list goes on and on.

------
jotadambalakiri
>What makes this censorship particularly consequential is that “96 percent of
Palestinians said their primary use of Facebook was for following news.” That
means that Israeli officials have virtually unfettered control over a key
communications forum of Palestinians.

I think the second sentence doesn't follow so clearly from the first one to
warrant a "that means".

