
Steven Pinker on the Tribal Roots of Defying Social Distancing - dnetesn
http://nautil.us/blog/steven-pinker-on-the-tribal-roots-of-defying-social-distancing
======
js2
This is the WHO's current advice:

> Non-medical, fabric masks are being used by many people in public areas, but
> there has been limited evidence on their effectiveness and WHO does not
> recommend their widespread use among the public for control of COVID-19.
> However, for areas of widespread transmission, with limited capacity for
> implementing control measures and especially in settings where physical
> distancing of at least 1 metre is not possible – such as on public
> transport, in shops or in other confined or crowded environments – WHO
> advises governments to encourage the general public to use non-medical
> fabric masks.

This is confusing advice.

Why don't they say "WHO has no recommendation about their widespread use"
instead of "does not recommend." Are they really advising against masks?

This is especially confusing combined with the rest of the paragraph. What is
considered an area of widespread transmission?

[https://www.who.int/news-room/q-a-detail/q-a-on-
covid-19-and...](https://www.who.int/news-room/q-a-detail/q-a-on-covid-19-and-
masks)

Unfortunately, you then have Fox News run an article like this: "WHO guidance:
Healthy people should wear masks only when 'taking care of' coronavirus
patients"

[https://www.foxnews.com/world/who-guidance-healthy-people-
we...](https://www.foxnews.com/world/who-guidance-healthy-people-wear-masks-
around-coronavirus-patients)

Then you have the CDC recommending masks, while the POTUS refuses to do so.

"CDC is additionally advising the use of simple cloth face coverings to slow
the spread of the virus and help people who may have the virus and do not know
it from transmitting it to others."

[https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/prevent-getting-
si...](https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/prevent-getting-sick/cloth-
face-cover.html)

So yeah, there's tribalism, but there's also conflicting advice from
authorities.

In my family, we wear masks when we're out among other people. I don't see how
it does any harm, the argument for how it can slow the spread of my germs to
others intuitively makes sense, is consistent with surgeons wearing masks to
prevent infecting patients, and there's anecdotal and initial research that it
helps.

What is the WHO's problem?

~~~
YeGoblynQueenne
>> Why don't they say "WHO has no recommendation about their widespread use"
instead of "does not recommend." Are they really advising against masks?

Yes, they are, because there are potential risks associated with _wearing_ a
mask, not only potential benefits:

 _The likely disadvantages of the use of mask by healthy people in the general
public include:_

 _• potential increased risk of self-contamination due to the manipulation of
a face mask and subsequently touching eyes with contaminated hands;(48, 49)

_ • potential self-contamination that can occur if non-medical masks are not
changed when wet or soiled. This can create favourable conditions for
microorganism to amplify;*

 _• potential headache and /or breathing difficulties, depending on type of
mask used;_

 _• potential development of facial skin lesions, irritant dermatitis or
worsening acne, when used frequently for long hours;(50)_

 _• difficulty with communicating clearly;_

 _• potential discomfort;(41, 51)_

 _• a false sense of security, leading to potentially lower adherence to other
critical preventive measures such as physical distancing and hand hygiene;_

 _• poor compliance with mask wearing, in particular by young children;_

 _• waste management issues; improper mask disposal leading to increased
litter in public places, risk of contamination to street cleaners and
environment hazard;_

 _• difficulty communicating for deaf persons who rely on lip reading;_

 _• disadvantages for or difficulty wearing them, especially for children,
developmentally challenged persons, those with mental illness, elderly persons
with cognitive impairment, those with asthma or chronic respiratory or
breathing problems, those who have had facial trauma or recent oral
maxillofacial surgery, and those living in hot and humid environments._

[https://www.who.int/publications/i/item/advice-on-the-use-
of...](https://www.who.int/publications/i/item/advice-on-the-use-of-masks-in-
the-community-during-home-care-and-in-healthcare-settings-in-the-context-of-
the-novel-coronavirus-\(2019-ncov\)-outbreak)

Btw, this is not a new discussion. There has long been uncertainty about the
benefits of wearing a surgical mask in the community, to protect oneself or
others from diseases. e.g. see this article from The Conversation dated
October 17, 2019 and titled _Can surgical masks protect you from getting the
flu?_ :

[https://theconversation.com/can-surgical-masks-protect-
you-f...](https://theconversation.com/can-surgical-masks-protect-you-from-
getting-the-flu-125023)

~~~
xscott
> potential increased risk of self-contamination due to the manipulation of a
> face mask and subsequently touching eyes with contaminated hands

This one seems very real to me. I've always been a bit of a germophobe, so I'm
careful not to touch my face after shaking hands or using a greasy door knob
etc... Now that masks are required in my area (questionably enforced, but an
actual mandate from the mayor), if I'm in the grocery store and my mask slips
a little, I _have_ to touch the mask to adjust/fix it. Of course my hands have
been on the shopping cart and such.

When my gym opens up, they're going to require masks too. I'm not sure how
that's going to work when doing cardio. Am I going to be huffing out my sweat
through the fabric on my face?

------
an_opabinia
I don’t know, on the one hand, I’m sure he thought a lot about this theory.

But on the other hand, if you just took Fox News off the air, more people
would wear masks and obey social distancing. And it isn’t obvious if Fox News
would be replaced with something else that would also be suddenly #1 and just
as radically anti-facts, that hasn’t happened with media basically ever. If it
went away, nobody would be “tribal” about masks anymore, it would become a
matter of a public health campaign, just like every other health crisis that
is sensitive to mass media, like first time smoking and drinking.

~~~
m0zg
I think it's a knee jerk to the notion that the government can "require" any
such thing from the citizens. Private companies can require this on their
premises, but I can just spend my money elsewhere then. Governments are
different in that regard. Governments have also blown their feet off by only
selectively applying their enforcement of the ban on congregations.

I do wear a mask when I go to the grocery store - I'm not an idiot. About 90%
of people in the store also wear face coverings, even though they are not
required. Our area is not in any way a hotspot, but I know I have a
comorbidity (high blood pressure which I manage with ACE inhibitors), so I'm
being extra cautious.

But I will take my money elsewhere if an establishment thinks it can "require"
me to wear a mask, because unlike with the government, I don't have to be
subject to their bullshit. So I haven't been to Costco or Home Depot in a
while now, and haven't renewed my membership at Costco.

~~~
xscott
> I do wear a mask when I go to the grocery store - I'm not an idiot

I'm very skeptical that my wearing a common mask protects me from anyone else.
I do suspect that it reduces the possibility of me infecting someone else
(hypothetically, assuming I'm asymptomatic).

~~~
dahfizz
I see this sentiment often, and I'm curious of there's a source for this.

Either a mask filters effectively, or it doesn't[1]. Intuitively I don't
understand why a mask would only filter air in one direction.

[1]
[https://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=.%2C+ACS+Nano+10.1021%2...](https://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=.%2C+ACS+Nano+10.1021%2Facsnano.0c03252+%282020%29.#d=gs_qabs&u=%23p%3DJUl3ZML0mKkJ)

~~~
xellisx
[https://mobile.twitter.com/richdavisphd/status/1276629360212...](https://mobile.twitter.com/richdavisphd/status/1276629360212979712?fbclid=IwAR1qeWWRjskk6RvEApxb7LVEWynedr2maVzlgOC0MK9MuTOEzMeX_yQuGAc)

~~~
dahfizz
That's not surprising considering the link I posted. My question is whether
the mask protects the wearer, and if not, why would the filtration only work
in one direction?

~~~
xscott
Thinking about it some more, I suspect the disconnect between us is that you
think the primary way of getting sick is breathing the airborne virus. Whereas
I think the primary way of getting sick is touching your eyes (or picking your
nose). So you want the filtering to be good, but I just don't want infected
snot droplets to be blown everywhere.

Now, I'm sure someone will throw an obnoxious "citation needed" reply...

------
playingchanges
Serious question: do we have any data on (non n95) mask wearing being an
effective protective method from COVID-19? I’ve heard people use the
prevalence of mask wearing in countries like South Korea and their better
Covid results as a type of data point, but that data could be correlation
rather than causation. Any other insights? Im truly sick of the masks but
would feel better if I knew there was some science behind them.

~~~
baxtr
It seems to be well researched and documented by now that masks are quite
effecting in reducing transmissions

[https://science.sciencemag.org/content/368/6498/1422.full](https://science.sciencemag.org/content/368/6498/1422.full)

~~~
thu2111
The paper doesn't actually say that. It says nobody really knows basic things
you'd need to determine that, for example:

 _Given how little is known about the production and airborne behavior of
infectious respiratory droplets, it is difficult to define a safe distance for
social distancing_

There are plenty of scientists saying masks have no effect when worn by people
who aren't actually both visibly sick and working in healthcare:

[https://www.cidrap.umn.edu/news-
perspective/2020/04/commenta...](https://www.cidrap.umn.edu/news-
perspective/2020/04/commentary-masks-all-covid-19-not-based-sound-data)

In fact manufacturers of ear loop/cloth masks specifically say they can't stop
COVID:

[https://off-guardian.org/wp-content/medialibrary/EYZu2Q2X0AA...](https://off-
guardian.org/wp-content/medialibrary/EYZu2Q2X0AA9A9x-800x800.jpg)

The WHO said:

[https://www.foxnews.com/world/who-guidance-healthy-people-
we...](https://www.foxnews.com/world/who-guidance-healthy-people-wear-masks-
around-coronavirus-patients)

 _" If you do not have any respiratory symptoms such as fever, cough or runny
nose, you do not need to wear a mask," Dr. April Baller, a public health
specialist for the WHO, says in a video on the world health body's website
posted in March. "Masks should only be used by health care workers, caretakers
or by people who are sick with symptoms of fever and cough."_

There's plenty of contradictory research out there. Maybe a mask helps if
you're literally coughing up phlegm all over the place, but COVID has a dry
cough and obviously symptomatic people don't seem to be the only way it
spreads.

