

Cycles - alecbenzer
http://blog.alecbenzer.com/post/11936211984/cycles

======
nbashaw
I used to be a lot like that. But then somehow I slipped out of the cycle and
started being good at things, and I've been truly consistently happy and
working hard on fun projects for the past 3ish years (I'm 22 now). I saw some
people asking others to share their stories, so I thought I would offer up my
own life as an example. It's just a data point, take from it what you will.

When I started high school I thought I wasn't good at anything. I was pretty
rebellious and took up smoking / drinking at a young age. Then I started
debating and found out I was pretty good at that, but it wasn't enough to pull
me out of my slump. Turns out, winning debates is only cool to other debaters.
I remember riding the bus full of idiots to school, listening to Modest Mouse
on my first iPod, just wondering why life generally sucked.

When I went to college I tried to be one of those thoughtful types. My
subconscious goal was to make everyone think I was tormented by deep thoughts.
It was my way of trying to get people to like me and to feel special. (I was
not conscious of this at the time). I smoked cigarettes a lot, became a
vegetarian, and thought about how nothing matters. Reading Nietzsche for fun
made me feel profound, and truly I learned a lot from it, but if I'm honest
with myself I did it because I wanted people to respect me.

That's what I was missing in my life, what made me feel so bad for so long. I
just didn't feel respected. I didn't think people took me seriously enough. I
quit college debate, joined another student organization and became known as a
friendly and smart guy there. Almost overnight everything got better. As I
started getting happier and more respected by my peers, I also started
becoming more ambitious. I dreamed about becoming president one day, about
starting massive companies, about changing history.

That was about 3 years ago, and I've been mostly happy since that point in my
life. Gradually I shed my old bad habits, like smoking, and picked up some
good ones, like eating healthier and exercising. I no longer want people to
think of me as someone who is tormented by his genius. I realized that people
really don't relate to or respond well to that. I still want to be respected,
but now I'm capable of getting respect because I learned the first step is to
be a warm person towards others - not by trying to project any sort of image.
The problem is that we all project an image whether we want to or not, so we
have a tendency to try and control it. I've found that I'm happiest and I feel
most respected when I'm focusing on the matter at hand rather than myself.
Whether it's designing an interface (my job) or talking to a friend, I find I
am happiest when I'm not thinking about myself.

Hope this helps somebody who's feeling like I felt 4 years ago.

~~~
keeptrying
Thanks for this. Something to really think about.

------
avolcano
Jesus, man. You shouldn't sell yourself short with a title like that; makes it
sound like some random MySpace post when it's one of the best personal blog
posts I've read.

I'm 18, and this pretty much describes the last four months of my life (since
starting at a soul-crushing community college). That depression -> realization
-> joy -> productivity -> slipping -> depression cycle is something I've
become intimately familiar with. I've considered therapy, of course, but I
keep hoping it's short-term, and I don't necessarily want to spend the money
if I have the ability to tame it myself.

edit: glad to see you changed the title :)

~~~
alecbenzer
Actually I didn't change the title. I guess a mod or something did?

~~~
avolcano
Ah, ok. Seriously, though, that's a damn fine piece of writing. Put into words
something I've never been able to.

~~~
arborist
same

------
richardw
I found, over time, that the simple knowledge there's a cycle means that a)
when I'm up, remember what it's like and b) when I'm down, remember that it's
temporary, and likely chemical. This is not _you_ , it's just how you're
feeling for a bit. Know that it will go up, and don't fight it up. Accept it,
which helps. Don't be scared of being down.

Look for environmental issues like exams coming up or work pressures, or
anything that if a friend were experiencing, you'd be more understanding of.
And if you can't find any, at least you have the knowledge that it's a cycle
and not permanent.

Also, make your decisions when you're up. Do the work on yourself you need to
do when you're up. Call the social worker, the therapist, plan to meditate.
Because you have the energy. Remember the highs and the lows, use the highs to
help the lows. Think of it as integrating two aspects of yourself, rather than
trying to get rid of the one that is down.

------
9085
Welcome to the club (read: life). How do you mature? Learn to spot these
issues before they happen. Learn to change when you need to change, not when
you have to change. Look inside. Reflect on the things you do. You know you
the best-- you can analyze you the best. I guarantee you will be amazed at how
much you can learn by just sitting quietly on the floor for 30 minutes doing
nothing. Eyes closed. More commonly understood as meditation.

I would bet you have more of a handle on things than many. Understand that you
are young and nothing, I repeat, nothing can substitute for experience. And
when you make sure to learn from every experience you have by utilizing self
reflection, well, you will understand life and it's bliss.

If anyone tells you life and the journey it provides is easy, they are lying.
If anyone tells you it sucks, they are lying.

------
larve
I would recommend going to a good professional, as this is something that
obviously is affecting your life more than just being down for a couple of
days. I would recommend going to the best of the best professional you can
find though, I had a terrible experience with one psychotherapist that kept me
from trying it again for more than 7 years. Even if you think your case is
just "mild" (not that this applies to you) doesn't mean that seeking help is
wrong, after all, you go to the doc if you have acne, or other things that are
not life threatening.

I have been diagnosed with bipolar I at age 29, and while I was able to come
back out an extreme manic + delusional phase without hurting anyone nor myself
too much, I now know the terrible danger that lies there. I selfmedicated with
various drugs since age 13, and after having found a substance that stabilized
me in a reasonable amount, I decided to go see a psychiatrist. Lucky as I am,
some pills and a round of psychoeducation fixed almost all of it.

At least I am not caught up in the cycle so much that I can't reflect on it
and follow the "backup steps" when I need to (sports + friends + happy stuff
when I spiral downward, more sleep, less socializing, less work when I am
skyrocketing upwards). And I am able to see the value in leading a boring
life, doing stuff you like and getting paid for it, and someday in the not too
far away future having a house and a garden and kids and just riding a smooth
ride at 50 km/h. Not missing the highs and not fearing the lows.

The key thing to all of this is though: the pills did it. After 29 years I am
suddenly able to a) have a grasp what a normal life is / can be, b) recognize
my own feelings without being completely overwhelmed by them, c) realizing
that even just thinking about suicidal thoughts is a sign that something is
wrong.

Of course this is all terribly subjective, but the closest you can come to
objectivity (hah!) is getting professional help. Getting feel-good advice or
whatever on the internet doesn't even work for normal well-understood
illnesses, so think about what it is for mental illnesses.

~~~
polymatter
How do you find a good professional (one thats good for me) and how long do
you give it to expect results?

I have always had an issue with depression, but its been getting worse lately
as basically friends have moved on (married, house, kids). I went to see my
university councillor who, emotionally I felt just wanted me out the door and
just gave general feel-good advice. I couldn't cope and then defacto dropped
out of my fully-paid phd at Oxford.

Then my dad dragged me to the doctor who gave me some antidepressants, which I
have to say worked amazing while I took them - much to my utter surprise. I
expected the drugs to be overcharged placebo effect. They didn't make me feel
happier, but I felt the relief that my "downs" were no longer so long or
painful. The doctor recommended some therapy which ... didn't work for me at
all. And was really expensive for an unemployed dropout. So I stopped them and
stopped the medication being on a high, thinking I was better.

But now I'm realising I'm not. Your comment that "just thinking about suicidal
thoughts is a sign something is wrong" struck a chord with me. I think I have
a good CV, but I have found it impossible to get a job. My impression is that
employers see a gap in work history, I say 'personal reasons' and they then
thank me for my time. The cite lack of experience, but that's weird since I'm
going for entry-level jobs.

So now I'd like to go back on the antidepressants, which seemed to do
something, but without the associated therapy. I'm ambivalent about talking to
people. It has to be someone I feel safe with, and whom I can relate to. Which
seems to indicate friends, but lean on your friends too much, and they slip
and slide away. Nobody likes a depressed friend. Least that's my experience.

Anyway, so how do you find a good professional? Just go down the list?

~~~
larve
i guess that's pretty hard. I live in germany, and they have this health
insurance thing where you can get private insurance, which allows doctors to
charge you more (crude picture here). But it also gives you a few advantages
(for which you have to pay more of course) like being able to go right to the
head of department (chefarzt-option), and that's one option i never regretted
taking. So basically I called the hospital, and it went like this:

me: "i'd like an appointment with the head of psychiatry" secretary: "i'm
sorry we don't take any patients" me: "i have private insurance" secretary:
"how about tomorrow morning"

If there is something similar you can do in england, I would go for it, maybe
just try to get an appointment with someone "higher-up". Maybe you have some
friends who are or whose parents are in the medical profession, or something
similar?

The bad experience I had was with someone similar to what you depicted, low-
level student counsellor, who the minute I saw her I knew "this is not going
to end well at all".

I wish you the best, don't give up. On the more prosaic and maybe a bit
blindsighted side of advice, regular sleep, healthy food, a bit of exercise is
the bottomline that I know I have to execute like a robot, not questioning it,
not think about it. I have alarms all over my iphone for that kind of stuff:
take out the garbage, clean your flat, do sports, shower. People think I'm
crazy, but I know that when things are not going good, that little piece of
technology is going to keep me on track.

~~~
alecbenzer
Personally, sleep and exercise are definitely things I should be getting more
of. I guess I just kind of need to take this seriously enough to just make
myself do them unquestioningly, like you describe.

~~~
polymatter
agree that its about doing it unquestioningly. I take the dogs for a walk
everyday. Its hardly the best exercise in the world, but 30-45 minute walk is
enough to help. The moment I question whether I can be bothered to take the
dogs out though, I don't, and then it gets harder to do so next time. This
morning it was cold and dreary and I didn't notice so I didn't bring my coat
when I came downstairs. I knew if I went upstairs for my coat (therefore
diverging even slightly from the habit) and I would find some excuse not to
go. Maybe quickly checking my email or something. So I came back from my walk
cold and wet rather than not go at all.

------
sushimako
First of all i'm sorry for your depression and wish you all the best on
overcoming it. As many will tell you, you're are not alone in that boat and
there IS a way out. But i think advice like this is almost as useful as "Just
be happy, the world has so much to offer!" to a depressed person.

This cycle you described is something almost every human being on earth goes
through, day to day. For some the down-phase is way stronger, crushing and
exhausting, to an extent unimaginable for the rest. But still, everyone has
it.

You made a good start by reflecting on the change-cycle of your feelings. Key
is now to find a way to make best use of that knowledge in order to weaken the
depression.

There are many different teachings that will help you find that wisdom.

Meditation (for example) can help you weaken that clinging for and aversion to
'good times' and 'bad times', resp. Clinging/Aversion itself is a very subtle
process, which we usually don't notice consciously, but adds a lot to how our
feelings turn out. Trying to be aware of it, gives you a whole new viewpoint
of the status quo.

------
keeptrying
Has anyone had any experiences that suggests bipolar people do better in a
"difficult" environment than "regular" people would in the same situation?

~~~
paganel
> that suggests bipolar people do better in a "difficult" environment than
> "regular" people would in the same situation?

Maybe there's something about it in here:
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Depressive_realism#References> ?

------
sraut
That was oddly beautiful.

It sounds like you are lacking fulfillment in your life and by extention
happiness.

Exitement is happiness. Do something exiting.

------
alecbenzer
curious if anyone can relate/offer advice

~~~
petercooper
It seems like a reasonably good description of _bipolar II_. Rest assured, it
can be tamed (either with medication, a therapy - such as CBT or even just a
humanistic therapy - or both) but the first step is in finding the right help
rather than ignoring it. Good luck.

~~~
alecbenzer
I was actually somewhat happily surprised to hear you say that. I had kind of
suspected that I had bipolar II for a while, but I sort of put the thought out
of my head for fear that I was falling into a self-diagnosis trap. I'd wanted
to go to a professional and be told I had it, but I never got around to really
going.

~~~
Fliko
Going to a professional isn't falling into a self-diagnosis trap, but wanting
to be told you have might be.

~~~
alecbenzer
No, I wasn't worried about going to a professional, I was just warned by some
people that I shouldn't spend so much time on the internet trying to figure
out what I have and then convince myself that I actually have it, and that I
should just go see someone and have them tell me what I have (if anything).

I ended up not really going to see anyone, though. The one time I did see
someone, I happened to not really be that depressed at the time, and so he
seemed to think that there wasn't much wrong with me, but I wasn't sure I
could trust his opinion since I don't think I could effectively relay how I
feel when I am depressed to him. I'm going to try and push myself to actually
go see someone again, though. Hopefully I'll be able to explain myself better,
or at least see someone frequently enough that eventually my feelings will
come out.

~~~
davidw
> Hopefully I'll be able to explain myself better

You might print out your posting and bring it in.

~~~
alecbenzer
I've thought of that, and I'll probably end up doing that. Somehow I feel like
a therapist might be annoyed that I'm just shoving a paper in their face
instead of talking to them, but I suppose it's the best I can do if I'm not
depressed at the time.

~~~
davidw
If they're annoyed with you for communicating in the way that works best for
you, you should find a better one.

------
EGreg
I am sure many people feel depression -- and probably beyond simple teenage
angst. I realize I haven't been in their shoes, but I want to offer advice
that I've figured out in my own experience, that lets you feel happy whenever
you want to:

1) Think about all the people who have it worse than you. Think about what you
have and what you can be thankful for.

2) Speak using only positive words for an hour, avoiding negative words.

3) Keep a list of things you are proud that you have accomplished, and as you
read it, smile a bit. You get natural feedback.

4) Do a small thing to fix your circumstances, such as cleaning a window, that
you can then sit back and enjoy. It's not much but you can do an excellent job
of it, and it will give you what psychologists call a "feeling of agency" --
that you have control over much in your world if you just put your mind to it.

5) Help someone! I just watched this
<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lxEkBt3c3CM>

6) Lower your expectations for things you cannot control. The only source of
disappointment is failed expectations, and the amount of desire you had is
proportional to the disappointment.

7) Triple your deadlines, get an organizer to clear your head, and you will
remove your stress.

8) Talk to someone who loves you and respects you. Share something that you
both enjoy!

If you do these things you're almost guaranteed to feel much happier!

~~~
angrycoder
All that stuff, it is like telling an alcoholic he just needs to stop
drinking. It just doesn't work that way.

~~~
Jach
When I was 13-14 or so, I used to say: "Suicidal thoughts? Stop thinking about
them or just do it already." It's a stronger form, that I no longer agree
with, of the "Get busy living, or get busy dying" sentiment I do still agree
with. I stopped believing the stronger statement after I had a lot of suicidal
thoughts that wouldn't go away.

~~~
EGreg
I am not an expert in this and these are my armchair theories, but they are
based on personal experiences and the medical knowledge that I do have. I am
only sharing them because I feel that the "experts" do not have enough
evidence in their field to make what they say too much more authoritative.
Please take it with a grain of salt.

Obsessive thoughts are associated with OCD just as much as with depression. A
lot of them happen because of pathways in the brain get strengthened over time
so that a trigger will cause a particular thought pattern to occur. The
triggers can be many different things, or a combination, from diet related, to
amount of sleep, to words you heard and your subconscious brain started
thinking about, to concepts you were exposed to. For example almost all of us
have obsessive sexual fantasies which get triggered by exposure to porn. We
have been conditioned by our society and advertising to have various cravings,
etc.

Now, if you want control over these -- it will be a LONG TERM process because
your brain gets wired like "hardware", some pathways get stronger over time
and you can't re-wire it instantly. (Unless of course you are Phineas Gage,
which you don't want.)

There is no 100% solution that works for everyone obviously. Sometimes you
can't get from here to there. But if you use the model above, you can almost
always make a number of serious changes in what you think about.

Try to identify your triggers by paying attention to specific things that
happen before you get the obsessive thoughts. Try to isolate the parts of your
mind that are engaged by these things. What commonality do these have?
Learning more about your triggers helps you avoid them while you re-condition
your brain.

Look at your expectations, which are internal pressures you put on yourself.
You set yourself up for disappointment when something doesn't happen, when you
find yourself in a certain state where the thing you expected didn't happen.
This is a massive trigger, because it is set by yourself, and you self-
identify with it. The worst triggers are the ones that you identify with
having caused yourself.

Work on breaking bad associations. When I you to complete this two word
phrase: "peanut-" do you think "-butter"? If this is negative to you, then try
to introduce a competing association that doesn't give you negative triggers,
and doesn't cause obsessive thoughts. For example, "peanut-taste". It
certainly is a silly example (think of whatever is in your ACTUAL situation,
it may not involve just two words but entire thoughts). But the point is,
rather than saying "don't think about the pink elephant" and hoping it'll
work, you try to associate one or more competing pathways with your triggers,
and eventually, through the competition, you may remove the pathway that leads
to suicidal thoughts or other obsessive thoughts.

Also you can set up competing pathways that lead OUT of your obsessive
thoughts. These may be things you feel strongly about, such as your kids,
pleasant associations from your childhood, or things you really want to
accomplish in your life. Once you find yourself already thinking about
suicidal thoughts, find ways out that worked for you, and write them down.
They may lose their power over time, so it is important to find good reasons
to believe in them. Notice this matches exactly what you did with the "Get
busy living, or get busy dying." You used to say, "Suicidal thoughts? Stop
thinking about them or just do it already." And it used to snap you out, but
in the long term it just lost its authority just like anything else that fails
to deliver on its promise for a long period of time. The best way is to have
this combination of

competing pathways that AVOID leading into obsessive / depressing thoughts

and

competing pathways that lead OUT of obsessive / depressing thoughts

work together. Because, if you find that your episodes of having obsessive /
depressing thoughts get more and more rare, you will find that you can TRUST
the competing pathways to get you out, and unlike "stopping believing" (as you
described above), you and your unconscious mind will trust them and follow
them, and eventually you will minimize the problem.

Also, people are motivated by contrasts. When you have too much of X, or you
get tired / bored of it, you start wanting an alternative to X, or perhaps
even "not X". This is what can cause, for example, people who have everything
to go and try something completely wacky, that would leave others saying,
"what were they thinking?" This is only somewhat related, but if you want to
motivate yourself to do something, artificially hold yourself back from the
thing you want to do. You will feel the absence and the space and will be glad
when given the chance to start doing it.

Finally, HABITS in the real world affects how often triggers come up. The
ultimate prevention is by instilling better habits. As one example, some
people with chronic joint pain avoid wheat products and find that their
chronic joint pain goes away. In general, I would say getting lots of sleep
and physical exercise -- especially assuming you are on the computer a lot,
since you are here -- will effect positive PHYSICAL changes and can once again
be something you can come to trust as a method to have a better life. This
trust is important, and if you break your "good habit" out of laziness, your
results won't be as pronounced and your trust won't be as strong. You have to
let the habit earn its trust. Over time you will be able to take liberties
with it, but not in the beginning.

Again these are just my own impressions on the topic, and I fully recognize
that it's hard or impossible to do when you are actually EXPERIENCING the
obsessive thoughts or depression, so I would recommend to do all your thinking
during your "lucid" phase and then work with your "compromised" self -- i.e.
the one present during the episodes -- to replace this depression with
something better.

I invite any criticism of what I say, like I said I'm just sharing a model
that seems to make sense to me.

------
arborist
Try this: <http://imgur.com/JTJCO> or... This! <http://imgur.com/mrwJb>

Seriously though, just by skimming over your online presence for 5 minutes, I
wish I was in your shoes.

You're an aspiring programmer that seems to have had an at least somewhat
early start with coding going to one of the best CS schools in the country.
You haven't even graduated yet and you've already scored an internship from an
awesome software company. I envy you.

The "meaning" of your life is what you make it and it seems like you are in an
excellent position to have complete control over your future. This is fairly
rare and so valuable, don't let depression take that away.

~~~
keeptrying
Depression is different man - its not something you can "will" away. At a
certain point on the downward slope of depression its hard to fix without
medication.

I liked your slides. :) Thats the kind of advice I dish out - more because my
dad was in the Navy and thats what I used to receive from him.

But the truth is, it doesnt help in anyway when your trying to support/help
someone who is depressed.

Truth is you could have the best career, a loving girlfriend and $300K in the
bank and you could still be depressed. Its got nothing to do with his external
life - its an internally (biologically) created situation.

