
Parish priest argues rationally for shoplifting - nkurz
http://www.yorkpress.co.uk/news/4813866.Full_transcript_of_the_sermon_given_by_Father_Tim_Jones
======
tptacek
_Let my words not be misrepresented as a simplistic call for people to
shoplift. The observation that shoplifting is the best option that some people
are left with is a_ grim indictment of who we are _. Rather, this is a call
for our society no longer to treat its most vulnerable people with
indifference and contempt._

~~~
hugh_
_The observation that shoplifting is the best option that some people are left
with is a grim indictment of who we are._

Britain is already a welfare state. How much more welfare-y does he want it to
be?

Also, doesn't "caring for the truly needy" fall into the Church's mission
statement? If a starving person comes to a priest, shouldn't the priest share
his own food rather than telling him to go steal from someone else?

~~~
javert
Agreed. Certainly the Church has not exhausted its resources feeding the poor,
and it should do so before it resorts to encouraging them to steal.

~~~
pbhjpbhj
_the Church has not exhausted its resources feeding the poor_

And should it? Should we for example sell our local building to pay the
heating bills of the local poor? How then will we meet the spiritual needs of
the people. Where can we congregate. How will we organise the meeting of the
physical and spiritual needs in future years without somewhere to meet
together, work together, pray together?

~~~
javert
Given that your moral code preaches altruism and self-sacrifice, yes. If
someone is in the situation that they will _die_ if they do not get material
resources from somewhere, you should give them what they need to survive
before you pay your own heating bills. Otherwise, you're hypocrites.

I'm going to tell poor people that if they _have_ to steal in order to
survive, they should steal from churches.

~~~
pbhjpbhj
I'm poor (according to our government we live well below the poverty line but
things are not that bad, gov metrics are just screwy; I digress) how would I
gain from stealing from other poor people. Surely to increase the wealth
amongst the poor, money needs to be taken from the wealthy - Tesco make how
many million UKP every day?

Stealing from poor people is simply stupid, morality aside.

If I give everything away today then tomorrow the guys who I've helped are
still going to be needy but my family and myself will also be in need. How is
that helping.

We do what we can whilst maintaining our own existence. Granted I bought
trousers yesterday giving me 2 pairs that don't have holes in (4 pairs I can
wear in public) but it does make it difficult to work without having clean
clothes to change into.

I don't think it is hypocritical to hold that others with more resources
should help more than me. Christianity does teach altruism and self-sacrifice
but these are not the prime message - relationship with God is utmost and we
are not taught to be stupid but instead to be generous with the things (and
time) we are blessed with.

(Incidentally not paying heating bills is also theft as gas is paid in
arrears.)

~~~
javert
I didn't say YOU should give poor people money, I said the Church should. And
I'm not going to tell poor people to steal from you; I'm going to tell them to
steal from the Church.

------
astine
This shouldn't shock anyone. It has long been the position of the RC Church
that property rights are secondary compared to the right to live.

~~~
hugh_
Indeed. Christianity, as a religion, is designed to appeal to folks at the low
end of society, so it's not too surprising. Nietzsche goes on about this kind
of thing a lot:

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Master-slave_morality>

~~~
pmorici
Is there a religion that doesn't?

------
briancooley
It's not exactly suggesting that the Irish eat their children, but it's an
interesting take nonetheless.

~~~
ratsbane
That's how I read it - a Swiftian proposal to make more fortunate people think
what it would be like to be in a situation (e.g. 100 pounds to live on for six
weeks) where shoplifting is the best option. At least, it made me think about
that.

------
javert
His argument was certainly not rational.

~~~
nkurz
How so? I take a pretty dim view of most organized religion, and found this to
be one of the more rational sermons I have read or heard.

He suggests that in a dire situation, stealing from the shelves of a major
chain store is a less evil alternative than violent crime or prostitution.

The obvious flaw in his argument would pointing out that this is a false
dilemma, that there are many other alternatives. But for the example of the
recently released prisoner he cites, I'm not sure which obvious ones he's
failing to consider. I'm not pro-shoplifting, but given his scenario it seems
better than robbery.

~~~
hugh_
_But for the example of the recently released prisoner he cites, I'm not sure
which obvious ones he's failing to consider._

Begging and dying would seem to both be more morally acceptable than stealing.

~~~
pbhjpbhj
As someone else pointed out the Church holds that the right to live is greater
than the right to [individual?] ownership of property. This has some
interesting consequences which I'll enjoy meating out with friends in the
Church in the next few weeks - very apposite.

Begging, agreed. Though when I look at it hard and consider that begging
demands the poor to give up their dignity then it reinforces in me that we
should endeavour not to leave people in a position where it is ever necessary.

I think just the fact that so many are now considering the position of the
poor facing moral choices of theft or starvation makes this an excellent
sermon.

~~~
hugh_
_I think just the fact that so many are now considering the position of the
poor facing moral choices of theft or starvation makes this an excellent
sermon._

When was the last time anybody actually managed to starve to death in Great
Britain? Great Britain is already a welfare state. It's easy to get paid for
not working. If you fall through the cracks of that system there are dozens of
charities devoted to helping those in genuine need. In addition, there's a
beggar on every street corner. Oh, and there's always the Church, which really
should be working on feeding the hungry itself (perhaps by reducing its own
gold-plated candelabra budget) instead of sending 'em to knock over Tesco's.

Finally, if you somehow manage to be completely unable to find food _anywhere_
, and you haven't eaten for days and you're actually in danger of dying of
starvation, all you need to do is go to hospital, where they'll say "hey, this
guy is dying of starvation" and give you free food and medical treatment.

In conclusion, dying for lack of food in modern Britain is very, very
difficult.

~~~
pbhjpbhj
When I said "not to leave people in a position ..." I wasn't really thinking
of people in the UK.

If you can walk into hospital then you're not going to be treated for hunger,
if you can't then you'll possibly die where you sleep. I'll agree, in winter
in the UK you'll die from exposure before you die technically from starvation.

Yes, in my city the best (in fact only) street work is paid for by the local
Church - they do a rolling program of food/shelter moving between a few of the
city centre church buildings.

" _Finally, if you somehow manage to be completely unable to find food
anywhere_ "

Isn't the point kinda that you can walk into this huge building, nearby and
full of food, 20% of which will probably just be binned, and help yourself??

[I'm really not a strong advocate of theft!]

