
Central Londoners to be subjected to facial recognition test this week - YeGoblynQueenne
https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2018/12/londons-police-will-be-testing-facial-recognition-in-public-for-2-days/
======
thatsnotmyusern
_> According to the police, these trials ... "will be used overtly with a
clear uniformed presence and information leaflets will be disseminated to the
public,"_

This line really creeps me out. Essentially: "But it's OK, because we're being
very clear about what we are doing, handing out leaflets and wearing our
uniforms so you can trust us."

If these trials are successful - or, for that matter, if they are not - can we
assume that they will drop all of that facade at the earliest opportunity in
favour of silent and ubiquitous rollout?

Who will be wearing uniforms and handing out fliers in 1, 2 or 5 years, when
facial recognition surveillance technology operates behind every one of the
thousands of surveillance cameras that capture our faces and movements every
single day?

~~~
smilespray
This not a trial, in terms of what a real trial should be.

It is a deliberate wedge strategy that has been employed at least once in the
UK before. (I couldn’t find a source right now, will report back when I can.)

The goal is to be able to say to higher powers that «we reached out to the
public and they didn’t mind.»

And then it’s made permanent.

~~~
all2
I smell a market for facial prosthetics (good ones) and sunglasses. Maybe
large hats.

~~~
beginningguava
They'll simply pass a law making disguises/obfuscation illegal in public.

Because why would anybody who's not a criminal or up to no good have any issue
with the tracking, right?

~~~
MiddleEndian
Plastic surgery will likely remain legal. I could see a future where people
avoid recognition by simply changing their features like a custom video game
character.

~~~
bhhaskin
Plastic surgery might remain legal, but you would likely be required to submit
before and after photos. Making it pointless.

~~~
MiddleEndian
If the tech reaches the point where you can do it at home, that won't matter.

~~~
jakeogh
You can trivially build banned (some places;) inanimate objects at home, but
that does not stop legislators from making those that do criminals. You didnt
update FaceRegistry? That's a felony, and another felony for modding your 3d
faceprinter to break the FR DRM.

------
akerro
They mentioned it was used in South Wales to assure us it's been used before,
but failed to mention that 92% were false positives.

[https://futurism.com/welsh-police-face-scanning-software-
inc...](https://futurism.com/welsh-police-face-scanning-software-incorrect/)

~~~
kwhitefoot
It doesn't matter that there are so many false positives if the intent is
simply to have a chilling effect.

------
porpoisely
Can't help but think that if this was done in beijing or shanghai, the
headline would be far more ominous.

For all the politically motivated attacks on facebook and tech by politicians
( especially the british and their commonwealth ones ), they sure do love
spying on their own citizens.

And for all the talk about dystopian china, it is britain that is leading the
world on spying on its citizens and using an authoritarian "social credit"
system on its people.

And I've no doubt that our politicians and tech leaders are using
london/britain as testing ground for surveillance before importing to the US.

I would love for china and its people to be free and have individual rights,
but I'm far more worried about the loss of freedom, privacy and individual
rights in the US.

~~~
arethuza
What "social credit" system does the UK have? We don't even have identity
cards...

~~~
arminiusreturns
Maybe gp is referring to the extremely classist nature of UK culture? One of
my best friends who got his Bachelors in the US but then did his masters at
Cambridge explained to me that egalitarianism basically doesn't exist in
reality there. They denied him his application for PhD, while the professor
who read it stole his idea and made it his own... and this was to a dual
American/British citizen. When I visited, I was taken aback at how snobby and
disdainful of the plebs people at Oxford were. To me as an American who had
made British military friends during the war that seemed awesome, it was
really shocking how dystopian the UK was, and not just the massive government
surveillance, (for example, imsi catching in The City stole my GPS signal for
a few hours at one point) it felt much more like a thin veneer over
oligarchical neofuedalism even the plebs participated in. There may not be an
official social credit system (yet), but Brits are good at knowing it without
the card.

~~~
Balero
It sounds like you met a bunch of arseholes tbh. Sorry about them. We are not
all like that.

The only people who I have experience with who are overly classist, tend to be
a bit older (50+) and consider themselves above other people, and are as
mentioned arseholes. The vast majority of people think this whole thing is old
fashioned, out of date, and disgusting. It is not something that people (at
least myself, and the people I know) overtly come into contact with on a daily
basis.

This is not to say things are perfect, or that there are not people like this.
But that modern Britain is not, aside from some annoying exceptions, like
this.

~~~
arminiusreturns
That is the impression I had too (that it was overstated), until I visited and
experienced it firsthand, from Birmingham to Oxford to London. Perhaps the
countryside is different. Of course it's true the same can be found in the US,
but my experience with that is that the rich in the US only care if you are
rich, whereas in the UK it seems much less than about just the money.

~~~
Balero
Was there another common factor that linked these people? You mentioned that
the one's in Oxford were from the university? They tend to be a bit older and
to think they're better than other people (joking!!). And old institutions do
tend to drag a bit.

But you are right there is a 'class' element, like how you speak, where you
went to school, that isn't just money. It does seem to be going, luckily.

Sorry again for your bad experiences!

edit - made statements clearer

------
grecy
Many premises already don't permit entry if you wear a face ski mask
(balaclava) or a motorbike helmet.

I wonder how long until it's illegal to simply walk down the street wearing
either.

Even if it's not actually illegal, I'm certain it won't be long before the
Police stop and detain anyone that does, because obviously you have something
to hide - your face!

~~~
enriquto
They will never be able to outlaw "adversarial" make-up, specially designed so
that the bearer is identified as another person.

~~~
all2
Today in London, Richard Nixon was seen at 37 coffee shops, 18 shoe shops, and
even buying a Lambo.

~~~
philpem
__at the same time __:)

~~~
village-idiot
Pretty fit for a dead guy.

------
mises
The best way to discourage its use at this point is via the courts. Declare
facial recognition inadmissible, and its use will drop off. Not a fan of bench
legislation, but keeping this out of widespread use is really, really
important.

~~~
Shivetya
We are long past the point of discourage its use. The move now should be to
make sure it is properly regulated so that retention duration is public and
verifiable. That acting off the images has follow a well defined legal
process. Most of it will be forensic in nature and the benefits of the
technology far outweigh the horrors that many claim will come. Here's a hint,
the governments of this world have already committed gross violations of human
rights of the worst kind for centuries, this isn't going to change that for
the worse.

If anything a trusted system will put the authorities on their toes too. It
will provide the ability to not only track those who committed a crime but
those in need of emergency services. It will even capture those who enforce
the laws. Yes there will be real time applications of this tech in the near
future and that is why those who can create this software should damn well be
working to make sure it does work and is not easily thwarted by those in power
or abused by them. Its going to happen, make sure if you can participate you
do so that the wolves don't have free run of the hen house.

So make it work, make it public, make it obvious, regulate it, and regulate
those who employ it. That is where we are now. If we keep running from it we
give other people the opportunity to do wrong with it

~~~
mises
No. I don't care how long they're keeping it. The problem is that governments
have databases of citizens. The problem of governments is that they want to
blow a hole in previous ideas of "assumption of privacy". Lots of people
around the world have trusted governments in the past. Many of them are dead.
If you haven't guessed, I don't trust the government. But I think that's with
good reason. I don't believe any regulation can solve this problem. The
government itself should regulate its own use of something? Like that's worked
before.

Keep this away from me. My concern is only secondarily that someone using my
data to run ads. My concern is primarily that government should never have
access to such a tool.

------
zimpenfish
How does this fit into GDPR? I can't see any reasonable claim that they need
this personal data (and what's more personal than my face?) for processing
purposes.

~~~
ergonaught
Easy enough via "processing is necessary in order to protect the vital
interests of the data subject or of another natural person", or "processing is
necessary for the performance of a task carried out in the public interest or
in the exercise of official authority vested in the controller", and such.

~~~
zimpenfish
> "processing is necessary in order to protect the vital interests of the data
> subject or of another natural person"

ICO says "The processing must be necessary. If you can reasonably protect the
person’s vital interests in another less intrusive way, this basis will not
apply." which cuts out that excuse because, since I'm not dead and the
majority of Londoners are also not dead, the police seem to be "reasonably
protect[ing]" our "vital interests in another less intrusive way".

[https://ico.org.uk/for-organisations/guide-to-the-general-
da...](https://ico.org.uk/for-organisations/guide-to-the-general-data-
protection-regulation-gdpr/lawful-basis-for-processing/vital-interests/)

~~~
kwhitefoot
Exactly how much power does the ICO have over the Met?

~~~
zimpenfish
[https://ico.org.uk/about-the-ico/news-and-events/news-and-
bl...](https://ico.org.uk/about-the-ico/news-and-events/news-and-
blogs/2018/11/ico-finds-metropolitan-police-service-s-gangs-matrix-breached-
data-protection-laws/)

> It has now issued an Enforcement Notice, compelling the MPS to ensure it
> complies with data protection laws in future and has given them six months
> to make these changes, which the MPS has accepted and already started to
> implement.

Enough, apparently.

------
mtgx
First it's optional, and then it won't be. Do people from UK realize that the
government, intelligence agencies, and the police see no end in sight for this
type of (ab)use of surveillance and censorship technology?

To me at least it has seemed obvious for some time that the UK government
wants to emulate China in this regard. So they see China as a "role model" to
be followed. I mean GCHQ has even proposed a Great British Firewall for crying
out loud. But like with the porn filter, they will promise to block only the
"really bad stuff" with it -- at first.

Both "democratic" and undemocratic governments of the world have woken up to
the fact that the internet gives people "too much freedom", so they are all
working to restrict that freedom, with all sorts of "plausible
justifications".

~~~
zabana
> To me at least it has seemed obvious for some time that the UK government
> wants to emulate China in this regard. So they see China as a "role model"
> to be followed

I may be overly cynical but it seems to me that China is the most honest
country involved in governmental mass surveillance. They never tried to hide
the intent behind their decisions whereas western nations always bring up
false pretenses to eat away at their people's rights and freedoms. The most
pathetic of all being "terrorism". We're all headed in the same direction,
it's just going to be achieved through different means.

------
jeofken
They had this in Berlin city-train (S-Bahn) stop Südkreutz. I never consented,
and now wear a scarf over my face in that station.

~~~
juhzy
I'm sure your eyes and nose, which you probably don't cover, are more than
enough to recognise you.

I think it would be more effective to wear big eyeglasses (like Wayfarers) but
I'm not sure, maybe someone can chime in?

~~~
jeofken
I try to cover up as much as I can. Sunglasses are a good idea.

Regarding sunglasses in Berlin, police stopped me on my e-moped recently and
forced me into a restaurant bathroom to do a pee test for drugs, and they told
me the reason was that I wore sunglasses when riding and thus looked
suspicious. I wear then to protect my eyes from dust and bugs. I was
absolutely sober, and going home from church. My takeaway is, Berlin police
want your face.

------
touristtam
Not a single comment on who developed this for the Met
([http://news.met.police.uk/news/facial-recognition-
technology...](http://news.met.police.uk/news/facial-recognition-technology-
to-be-deployed-on-17-and-18-december-340759)), but the second link
([https://www.met.police.uk/live-facial-recognition-
trial/](https://www.met.police.uk/live-facial-recognition-trial/)) actually
gives us a name: NEC NeoFace which was used in Dallas airport in July 2017:
[https://dallasinnovates.com/necs-neoface-tech-tested-u-s-
air...](https://dallasinnovates.com/necs-neoface-tech-tested-u-s-airports/)

------
14
I prey we can get facial recognition to the public and we can start publicly
tracking politicians and they can own their political decision anywhere they
go. Have a CEO that wears fur coats, well facial recognition now knows he eats
at starbucks every friday lets go there then and protest. A corrupt
politician, oh facial recognition detects them at a conference lets go
interrupt it. There will be no hiding in the future and I truly hope this
applies to the elite as well. They have more to lose with being tracked then I
do.

~~~
philpem
"This morning the Political Privacy Act was rushed through. MPs are now exempt
from all face-recognition systems. The vote was unanimous..."

~~~
iliketosleep
At first I thought this comment was just funny, then I had the thought that
it's actually plausible, then it hit me that it's not only plausible but
inevitable.

~~~
dwyerm
Not just inevitable, but it already happened. In 1992 the US Government banned
people from receiving radio in certain 800MHz bands, because someone listened
in on a politicians analog cell phone call. I'll let RadioReference say it:

"The motivation for this amendment had to do with an analog AMPS cellular
telephone call into a political conference call made from Florida by now-
incoming Speaker of the House John Boehner in which there was discussion of
the ethics charges against then-speaker Newt Gingrich; a recording was made of
the call and given to a Democratic Florida politician and whackiness ensued."

The AMPS systems that were impacted have been shut down for more than a
decade, but you still can't purchase a radio receiver without that 'Cellular
Blocking' enabled.

[1]
[https://wiki.radioreference.com/index.php/Cell_blocked](https://wiki.radioreference.com/index.php/Cell_blocked)

------
mLuby
Facial recognition is disturbing because it's one step closer to a system
can't be voted out of office or overthrown by revolution. That is the dead-end
I fear for humanity.

------
willyt
I thought this ship sailed? I heard of CCTV control centres in London doing
this about 15 years ago? I can’t find a link, has anyone else heard of that?

~~~
sbhn
The process of stealing peoples data, there physical appearance data in this
case, in the name of security and billing the tax payer billions of pounds for
the priveledge, isnt going away very soon.

------
fiala__
I wonder if there's a demonstrable correlation between level of police funding
and support for such initiatives. In the UK's public sector there is
definitely a strong drive for automation, but it does kind of coincide with
austerity and drastic cuts in police services.

------
rationalbeaver
When facial recognition is ubiquitous we will all wear masks.

~~~
lozf
Okay, let's jump forward in time a little ...

When FR is ubiquitous, we'll need a different mask for each section of the
journey to prevent being tracked end to end.

Also Gait-DNA will soon be ready to implement, of course it'll be tested on
existing "footage" first ... then it's not a huge jump to mapping your current
disguised journey (say from home to work, at regular intervals) to some saved
recordings from when you we're unmasked.

Fine for those who can change their routine perhaps, but less so for the great
majority.

------
jammygit
Is anyone donating to the Big Brother Watch campaign?

