
Shouting ‘pay your taxes,’ activists occupy Apple retail stores across France - uladzislau
https://www.marketwatch.com/story/shouting-pay-your-taxes-activists-occupy-apple-retail-stores-across-france-2017-12-02?siteid=rss&rss=1
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beloch
I really respect this kind of activism. Fair taxation certainly isn't the
sexiest topic to hold a protest about, but it is actually a huge fundamental
issue for us today. Individuals, and Corporations we treat as legal
individuals, produce value for our society in several ways, and paying taxes
is one of them. When wealthy individuals or large corporations dodge taxes via
off-shore firms, etc. they erode the basis of public services and increase the
tax burden on less wealthy individuals and smaller companies.

Worse yet, they frequently seem to do this by subverting our public officials.
It's reached the point where our regulatory institutions and even our
government appear severely compromised by the financial concerns of
corporations. If our elected representatives need corporate money just to get
elected, how can we rely on them to represent us on issues that might run
against the interests of those corporate donors? Direct public action, such as
protests, seem to be the last recourse left available to us on certain topics.

When you have a large, enormously successful company sitting on gargantuan
cash reserves _not_ paying its taxes and _getting away with it_ , you have a
problem. Apple probably isn't even the worst offender, but they're famous and
have a built in hate-club (anything that inspires fans also inspires anti-
fans). While this protest only had a few hundred supporters, that's pretty
incredible for this kind of topic. Hopefully this sort of protest happens more
often and gives tax-evading corporations pause.

~~~
threeseed
Really ? This kind of activism is completely pointless and ignorant.

Apple is paying the taxes it is legally responsible to pay. End of story. If
you want them to pay more tax then you should be protesting against Macron and
the rest of the French government and get the laws changed. Multinational tax
avoidance can ONLY be fixed through international cooperation of governments.

~~~
matt_wulfeck
$9 billion in taxes. You can't please everybody.

~~~
StephenMelon
Are you implying that you’d be happy for a corporation to pay minimal tax, as
long as the amount paid sounded like a large number?

~~~
matt_wulfeck
I’m saying lashing out at a company that’s paying 9 billion in taxes as
“stealing” is short-sighted. Especially if you’re going to make that your
public activist stunt.

------
21
To those saying that Apple has a fiduciary obligation to maximize profits,
shouldn't by that logic Apple respect the environment at the minimum required
level by law? But on the contrary, Apple highlights in a lot of their
presentation how green and environmentally conscious they are, going above and
beyond what the laws require:

[https://www.apple.com/environment/](https://www.apple.com/environment/)

Maybe because today being seen environmentally conscious makes you more money
than you lose by paying for greener technologies? If people can make avoiding
paying taxes seen in the same light, things will change.

I wait for the day this page exists:

[https://www.apple.com/paying_taxes/](https://www.apple.com/paying_taxes/)

~~~
toyg
_> Maybe because today being seen environmentally conscious makes you more
money_

There is a generational issue as well. Cook (and before him Jobs) grew up in
the '70s, when the political upheavals of the '60s had started to rot. The
main ideals that survived that age were environmentalism and racial/sexual
equality - likely because they could be coupled with aggressive capitalism
relatively painlessly. What "big values" do companies like Apple push, today?
Environmentalism and racial/sexual equality.

Fair taxation is an issue that started to be considered only since the late
'90s, and really went mainstream only with Occupy. In the '60s and '70s high
taxes were normal (the legacy of New Deal and war effort in US, and socialist
movements in Europe); in the '80s and '90s cutting taxes became a mantra, a
shortcut to political victory. By the early 2000s the cracks started to show.
As the generations that grew up with Occupy start to get in positions of
command, hopefully they will try to find ways to conciliate the search for
private profit with the fairness of higher taxation.

~~~
humanrebar
> As the generations that grew up with Occupy start to get in positions of
> command, hopefully they will try to find ways to conciliate the search for
> private profit with the fairness of higher taxation.

You say that like "the generations" uniformly "grew up with Occupy". Lots grew
up with other kinds of populism. Many grew up with online FPSs. I'll bet on a
lot of diversity of perspective in lizardpeople^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H Millennials
over any sweeping prediction about Millenial culture and politics.

------
downandout
These people are protesting against the wrong entity. Apple followed the tax
laws at the time, so they should protest against their government for creating
loopholes that can and always will be exploited by those with the resources to
do so. Public companies have a fiduciary responsibility to their shareholders
to maximize profits, which includes taking advantage of any and all available
strategies to reduce their tax burden.

~~~
Thorncorona
Just because you can doesn't mean you should. Taking advantage of others (such
as lobbying for loopholes) falls under the umbrella.

Just because you can dump industrial waste into a river doesn't mean you
should. Just because you can steal doesn't mean you should. Just because you
can shortchange citizens doesn't mean you should.

Yes laws should be passed, I agree, but that doesn't mean we can't also
multilaterally also go after others at the same time. Do you hold the parent
responsible for the kid stealing? Yes. But you also hold the kid responsible
for stealing.

Most of all, I want to get of this notion that public corporations have
fiduciary responsibility to maximize profit. In the Supreme Court case
_Burwell v. Hobby Lobby_ , the supreme court stated that __" modern corporate
law does not require for-profit corporations to pursue profit at the expense
of everything else, and many do not do so. For-profit corporations, with
ownership approval, support a wide variety of charitable causes." __

There is a better option, we just aren 't taking it. As citizens, we should be
supporting multilateral action for a more ethical capitalist economy.

~~~
downandout
So do you voluntarily pay more taxes than you are legally obligated to?
Purposely fail to take deductions etc? Hopefully you’re walking the walk since
you’re saying things like this.

~~~
danieldk
The problem is that you can only make use of loopholes if you are large
enough. You need foreign entities, an army of lawyers, etc. Consequently, rich
companies can use loopholes, but the smaller local companies that they are
competing with cannot use the same loopholes.

Secondly, you would be surprised, there enough people who don't deduct
everything possible. There are also enough people who don't take the cheapest
energy, but choose a green option instead. Who don't buy the cheapest meat,
but go for more expensive non-factory farm meat. Who don't take a plane, but
take a train. Etc.

(Before someone starts to criticise green energy, bio meat, etc., that's not
the point: people _are_ willing to spend more for a more ethnical lifestyle.
Why shouldn't we expect the same from a company that always talks about its
ethical virtues?)

~~~
hueving
The green energy comparison is not apt because there isn't an ethical amount
of taxes to pay. With green energy you are trying to minimize non renewable
consumption.

What is the ethical amount of tax deductions to take? All, some, or none of
the ones offered by the tax law?

------
PrimalDual
Pardon my ignorance but I thought Apple largely obeyed the law. Shouldn’t
these people be protesting the government that fails to tax Apple justly?

~~~
westiseast
Ireland allowed Apple a loophole where they were incorporated there, but non-
resident, and therefore no tax. It was a sweetheart deal and Ireland got jobs
and investment. The EU said no, wants the back tax to be paid.

~~~
petre
Retroactive taxes and tax regulation? It's too bad the EU officials did not
think about that loophole before it was abused.

~~~
soVeryTired
They did think about it. The law says "No state aid for companies", and the
ruling says Ireland gave state aid.

~~~
petre
Then Ireland should be fined.

------
cdancette
While the root of the problem is not the companies' action (they do what is
logical for their own benefits), this is very good to raise public awareness.

This could be seen as a negative externality, because it has a very negative
impact on the economy of the countries they're operating in. They're basically
sucking money out of the country without contributing back what they should

------
cmansley
Why does no one get mad at the governments who have the large tax loop holes?
Shouldn't it be "Ireland close your loopholes!"

~~~
Voloskaya
> Why does no one get mad at the governments who have the large tax loop
> holes?

Why do you assume no one is? This has been discussed at length during the last
French presidential election for example.

See also: [https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-10-24/macron-
ha...](https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-10-24/macron-has-some-
awkward-questions-for-irish-leader-on-tax-policy).

~~~
humanrebar
> Why do you assume no one is?

Because they're picketing Apple and not the National Assembly?

~~~
Voloskaya
As far as I know, the French national assembly doesn't make the law in
Ireland, so I fail to see the point.

------
jokoon
I was talking to a teacher in management who worked with finance, he told me
that tax havens will never get solved to this day.

Every developed country has its own tax haven. Even if a country manages to
ban banks from transferring money to a tax haven, businesses would move to
other countries or find other loopholes.

It's a race to the bottom. I guess the only thing that would solve the
situation is a global agreement against tax havens, something that would
require a lot of diplomatic work between countries, so I guess the UN would be
involved somehow?

I hear so many people ranting about the government increasing their taxes, so
often in their anger they sympathize with companies who use tax havens,
surprisingly, saying it's the fault of politicians and their whole "gang".

I am still waiting for voters to be attentive to this not sexy problem of
taxation, and maybe, maybe, if large companies's image suffer from it, maybe
things will move... But it would require citizens to at least be aware of the
accounting of all of this...

~~~
tedeh
This is already starting to happen, see for example AEOI:

[http://www.oecd.org/tax/transparency/automaticexchangeofinfo...](http://www.oecd.org/tax/transparency/automaticexchangeofinformation.htm)

I believe governments (some of them, starting in Europe...) may very well be
on their way towards harmonised tax levels because there is just so much money
they are missing out on and they know it. Ireland may be reaping most of the
benefit as it stands right now, but it is probably clear that a slightly
higher tax in Ireland and a slightly lower one in other European countries may
well net Ireland more in the end anyway.

If large megacorporations will be as affected by this general trend as small
business owners remains to be seen I guess - I'm not too optimistic about
that.

~~~
jokoon
I don't want to be too pessimistic, but I'm doubtful about those initiatives.

Tax experts seem to be 10 steps ahead of legislators, not to mention
lobbyists.

I really want to believe that tax havens could be solved, but if you think
about it, it's a very hard problem and nobody has enough political capital to
solve it. Even people who are in power have little interest in trying to
improve the situation, and I doubt that voters would really give any damn, not
to mention that there are many small businesses who already benefit from tax
havens too.

------
nattmat
Norway's pension fund has also started putting pressure on companies it holds
shares in, among them Apple.

[https://www.reuters.com/article/us-norway-swf-tax/norways-
we...](https://www.reuters.com/article/us-norway-swf-tax/norways-wealth-fund-
turns-spotlight-on-company-tax-and-pay-idUSKBN1790UA)

------
pcurve
What's stopping EU from getting their acts together and impose corporate
equivalent of Alternative Minimum Tax for companies doing business there?

~~~
pmyteh
The EU doesn't have general legislative competence for tax: it's reserved to
the member States. To change this would (IIRC) require a new treaty, and the
perceived loss of sovereignty would go down like a lead balloon with many of
the governments - so that won't happen at least in the short term.

------
oldandtired
Taxation, like all things mandated by any government, is regulated by the
legislation put in place by the respective governments. Everyone is entitled
to use said legislation to minimise their burdens, everyone.

The problem that arises is that governments do not manage their
responsibilities in these areas (or pretty much every area they have
legislative control over) in any adequately honest way.

Instead of everyone being treated in the same way (including any entities
created by fiat such as companies, etc) equally, we see all governments make
special cases for various segments. So we see varying rates of taxes being
applied across the population. Within that, what is never brought to account
is how that government uses those funds.

Many years ago, if I heard it correctly, a new taxation regime was to be
brought into a certain country. One of the ideas put forward internally was
that a transaction tax be levied against all transactions passed through the
banking systems use in that country. From what I gathered, it was something
like, 1/100 currency unit per 100 currencies units.

The initial estimation (from what was conveyed) was that this would raise
enough taxation to be able to remove all other taxation methods (including
income taxes, sales taxes, government duties, etc). The richest companies and
individuals would (by the nature of their transaction) pay the majority of
this. It would also gather tax from all money laundering and criminal
activities.

The burden on the least able members and small companies, etc would be less
than what they were currently paying.

From what was conveyed, this specific option was given the death knell due to
it being an incredibly hard sell to the country because all major companies
and all major welfare groups would come out against this.

They settled for something that ended up not being capable of decreasing the
basic taxation burden on the general non-business community.

The taxation law would have gone from 30,000+ pages down to probably less than
50 pages.

So how do you expect any sense to arise in this area?

------
dingo_bat
How hard is it to solve the tax problem? France should abolish all income
taxes, and put a 100% sales tax on iphone. Problem solved. Apple can dodge as
much income taxes as they want.

~~~
evgen
Then Apple stops selling in France and continues to sell in Belgium, Germany,
Spain, etc and people drive them into France by the truckload. Or Amazon just
delivers them via post. No taxes to France at all. Problem solved.

~~~
dingo_bat
That's ok. I'm sure sales will take a substantial hit if people cannot walk
into a store and buy it. I mean there's a reason Apple sells directly in
France, right?

~~~
evgen
Substantial? I doubt it. While Apple does a lot of retail volume, the big
money-makers like the iPhone can be drop-shipped from anywhere in the EU.
There are 20 Apple stores in France, but millions of iPhones there; I doubt
more than 20% of French iPhone users purchased at an Apple store, and probably
closer to 5%.

~~~
dingo_bat
> Substantial? I doubt it.

It must be, otherwise why would Apple even have a retail channel in France? I
think the number would be closer to 50%. Keep in mind that iphones are
purchased at all sorts of retailers apart from istores.

------
LeeHwang
I really respect this. We need to publically shame and boycott companies that
hide their money and refuse to pay taxes.

The government isn't doing anything, but we can !

------
s3nnyy
I think it is pretty normal for mega-corps to do tax-evasion activities,
otherwise they would not be mega-corps.

------
spodek
Helping people install Linux to migrate away from Apple might make their
protests more effective.

------
hartator
Apple pays 20% VAT on all their products. It's hardly notging.

------
VeronicaJJ123
May be France's shitty tax regime is more to blame here. French government
should work with Apple to come up with a simplified tax code or show some
balls and expel Apple from the country.

------
qengho
Taxation is theft.

~~~
dennis_jeeves
Upvoted your comment. Funny how people cannot see the obvious. Not many people
would pay taxes - unless threatened with violence.

------
alfithehermutt
Respect. Id love to see the alt right and hard/extreme/radical/(or whatever
else you are calling)the alt-left to do the same rather then attacking poor
citizens.

~~~
steinerj
wat

