
Hyperloop may become reality in Dubai - nedsma
http://www.bbc.com/news/technology-37908915
======
lisper
Dubai is a much worse place than California for the Hyperloop for two reasons:

1\. Dubai and Abu Dhabi is only 100 miles. That's not nearly enough to make
the Hyperloop economically attractive even if it were to work (which it won't,
see point #2). Regular high-speed rail can make this trip in 30 minutes. It's
just not worth paying N times as much for some value of N>>1 to shave 18
minutes off of that. 300 miles (like San Francisco to LA) is about the minimum
distance for the hyperloop to compete with conventional high speed rail even
under ideal circumstances.

2\. Dubai has bigger thermal swings than California, so the thermal expansion
problem -- which is still unsolved -- will be that much worse in Dubai.

~~~
benjaminva
1\. From a sane point of view, this argument makes sense but the UAE don't
have a money problem and prestige/aura of modern technology is weighted much
heavier than economical reasoning. It would be a huge attraction and a big
reputation boost - they could again argue that UAE is where the future is
built, not the USA.

2\. It is hot down there but from what I have experienced, the thermal swings
are lower than on a normal Central European or American day. This means in
October 35 C during the day, 30 C at night.

~~~
lisper
The hyperloop's thermal problems are not the result of day-to-day swings, they
are the result of _overall_ swings. This is because the entire track has to be
a single length of welded steel tubing. The thermal expansion at the ends is
just _ridiculous_ \-- hundreds of meters. It doesn't matter if this happens
over the course of a day or over the course of a year, it's still going to be
a show-stopper.

------
jcoffland
> Hyperloop was originally an idea from Tesla's boss and tech entrepreneur
> Elon Musk, who conceived the technical details of the transport system but
> left it to commercial firms to make the vision a reality.

The BBC needs to get their facts straight. Elon Musk did not conceive the
Hyperloop. This concept has been around for much longer. The trademarked name
Hyperloop is what's generally known as a vactrain and the idea has been around
for at least 100 years.
[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vactrain](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vactrain)

------
emodendroket
Well, if there's one place in the world a project is likely to get done
despite making no practical or economic sense it's Dubai.

~~~
Animats
I predicted this a few weeks ago on YC.[1] Dubai to Abu Dhabi is 50 miles of
flat desert, mostly empty. It's the easy case for the Hyperloop technology.

But I bet it turns out to be maglev in a vacuum tube, not aerodynamic flying.

[1]
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12708576](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12708576)

~~~
curtis
If it's maglev but it's running in a near vacuum rather than a hard vacuum I
personally think we could still call it Hyperloop even though it wouldn't be
_exactly_ like Elon Musk's proposal. I.e. it's the "near vacuum" part rather
than the air caster part that's significant.

Now if someone successfully builds a maglev in a hard vacuum tube, then that
would definitely _not_ be a Hyperloop, it would just be a classic vactrain. On
the other hand, I don't think Musk would be the least bit disappointed if
somebody was able to actually build an operational vactrain.

------
lcnmrn
What happens when Hyperloop breaks the sound barrier inside a tunnel? Will it
always be slower than the speed of sound? If yes, why don’t we invest in
MagLev trains instead?

~~~
hatsunearu
Huh, I thought that speed of sound increases when pressure decreases, but it
seems to be the opposite.

~~~
JoeAltmaier
Here's a graph I found. It appears highly non-linear.

[https://sooeet.com/speed/speed-of-sound-in-atmosphere-
graph....](https://sooeet.com/speed/speed-of-sound-in-atmosphere-graph.php)

~~~
hatsunearu
Probably because that isn't just v vs. pressure, it probably takes the
temperature into account as well.

------
chinathrow
Will I love the technology and would absolutely work for Hyperloop, I would
never want them to make deals with the UAE. The abuse of human rights is just
to much of an issue over there in these kingdoms.

[https://www.hrw.org/middle-east/n-africa/united-arab-
emirate...](https://www.hrw.org/middle-east/n-africa/united-arab-emirates)

"The government arbitrarily detains, and in some cases forcibly disappears,
individuals who criticized the authorities, and its security forces face
allegations of torturing detainees."

~~~
ex3ndr
They have very good explanation: They are only 10 years old, they don't have
1000s years of laws of europe or china. They are just studying. Isn't USA
still electrify innocent people some times?

~~~
knodi123
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/And_you_are_lynching_Negroes](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/And_you_are_lynching_Negroes)

------
Karlozkiller
Was Elon Musk really the one first posing this idea?

~~~
Retric
Hyperloop yes, however this is just an evacuated tube which is a very old
idea. His idea is closer to an electric aircraft in a tube than a train in a
tube.

After all if you are going to use a train just add cars to increase capacity.

~~~
mikeash
It's not quite an evacuated tube, which makes it different enough from the old
concepts to be interesting. The pressure in the hyperloop tube is very low,
but it's not a vacuum. This means that the tube can be relatively leaky, and
the air that it does contain is also used to lift the vehicle.

~~~
olegkikin
It's very very close to vacuum - 0.015 psi (99.85% vacuum). For all practical
purposes, calling it vacuum is very reasonable.

~~~
mikeash
Being able to have a leaky tube and use the air for lift seem like _practical
purposes_ to me.

~~~
Retric
_All_ vacuums are partial. It's not a binary quality, rather vacuums are
graded by how close to absolute vacuum they are. Much like 0 kelvin does not
exist, but cryogenic systems are making things colder.

~~~
mikeash
I'm well aware. The traditional evacuated tube is a pure vacuum _for all
practical purposes_ , with any remaining air being undesirable and having no
important effects on the machine. Hyperloop _requires_ a certain amount of air
in the tube.

~~~
Retric
Early vacuum systems where actually using steam that was then condensed. So,
it's not particularly high and only a 'pure' vacuum for relevant purposes.

Don't forget vacuum cleaners are hardly high vacuum systems.

~~~
mikeash
Is there a point to this besides pedantry? My actual point is that the
Hyperloop is something new, not just a rebranding of previous evacuated tube
systems. If you have something to dispute that point, then by all means go
ahead, but if you just want to quibble over me being insufficiently specific
in my explanations then I'll let it be.

------
Randgalt
The tone and sarcasm of this video aside, the guy makes strong arguments that
the Hyperloop cannot work technically. Worth watching as he makes good
arguments.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RNFesa01llk](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RNFesa01llk)

edit: actually it can work technically, but it's not practical at all

~~~
pitaj
And here's a playlist of videos debunking Thunderfoot's videos on the subject:

[https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLSPi1JFx4_-Gz0Fm0qq2K...](https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLSPi1JFx4_-Gz0Fm0qq2KUz4c22UbZCco)

------
Mz
And I _may_ become rich someday.

Note how elegantly that statement sums up _step 1 & ???????? = magic final
result._

------
ythl
> Initially, it will explore the feasibility of building a line linking the
> two cities.

So now it's one of those "feasibility" projects?

Hyperloop suffers from the same problem as Solar Freakin' Roadways and
Artificial Gills, I'm afraid: too much saying, not enough doing. I am
instantly suspicious of projects that have lots of hyped up marketing but
little to no prototypical substance.

To me, Hyperloop One still seems like a sci-fi pipe dream (pun intended).

~~~
Fricken
It's not our money funding this company, I don't see the utility in trying to
take them down a notch. If they fail, only their investors lose. If they
succeed, we all win.

If it's an HN thread about the latest social media startup, the lament is that
SV doesn't innovate enough. If it's about a company tackling something hard,
out come accusations of 'vapourware', and predictions of their imminent doom.

~~~
hiou
"If they fail, only their investors lose"

You realize that isn't actually how a capital market based economy works,
right? Investors are the "command" part of the economy, responsible for
allocating resources. If they decide to only invest in ridiculous, worthless
ideas then we all definitely lose. So far that hasn't happened, but never
forget that it is very important for us all where investors put their money.

~~~
jessaustin
Wealth is the only credential required for investing. If some or all of
today's investors crash and burn, loads of other wealthy people will find
better opportunities with reduced competition from today's foolish investors.
(Maybe they aren't investing now because their risk profiles _require_ better
opportunities to get the cash out of the mattress.) If one hasn't somehow
hitched her wagon to the fools, their poor investments can't hurt one at all.

This "somewhere, someone is losing money!" concern trolling fallacy is one
"usefully idiotic" source of our repeated bailout follies, so I'd like never
to see it again.

~~~
hiou
The Dot Com and Real Estate crashes(both fueled by very poor investment
choices) didn't hurt anyone? Interesting take.

~~~
jessaustin
The particular crashes you cite didn't hurt me. We're not all in this together
when Jaimie Dimon is enjoying his luxuries. Why would we all be in it together
when he makes a dumb investment?

~~~
eloff
Because when lots of people collectively make dumb decisions, then the whole
macroeconomic picture goes bad and people like you and I, otherwise not
involved find ourselves out of work because of general layoffs in a down
economy.

One bad decision here or there won't make much of a difference, because it
doesn't dent the whole, and it likely doesn't affect anyone directly connected
to us. But many bad decisions is a whole other ballgame.

~~~
jessaustin
At the top of this thread, one could _see_ the goalposts. At that point a
"live and let live" attitude toward speculative investing was advocated,
appropriately for a site like HN.

Here the argument seems to be that a transportation project in Dubai is
somehow the same as Goldman purchasing CDSs from AIG.

~~~
eloff
And I agree with that argument. Where I must respectfully disagree is when you
say the previous two major economic upheavals didn't affect you personally, as
if implying they shouldn't affect anyone else either, which is silly. You
probably didn't mean to imply that, but that's what people are going to read
(myself included.)

~~~
jessaustin
I'm not against helping out "little people" who need help. A cursory
examination of the bailouts, however, makes clear that nothing of the sort was
ever contemplated. All payments were to giant financial firms. Briefly,
certain shameless pundits claimed there would be some sort of "trickle down"
effect, but no one really expected it.

When the general welfare is invoked to justify extraordinary action, but the
action itself doesn't contribute to that at all, the original argument ceases
to convince. _Cui bono?_

