
AMD Threadripper Delidded, with a Multi-Core Surprise Under the Hood - pantalaimon
https://www.extremetech.com/computing/253248-amd-threadripper-delidded-multi-core-surprise-hood
======
nolok
Every piece of info about this and Intel's answers confirms how prepared AMD
is for the entire line up, and how rushed Intel's answer is.

I can understand them not wanting to let these new lines/prices be the norm
too fast and lose money on margins, but I certainly did not expect them to be
caught in what can only be total surprise and unpreparedness.

~~~
mtgx
I believe it's called monopolist arrogance. Those who have it tend to be
caught off-guard.

~~~
wyldfire
AMD gave Intel a run for their money in the early naughts. Their chipset
designs were inferior to Intel's but they had great CPUs. But then Intel took
a page from HyperTransport (QPI) and AMD64 (IA64/x86_64) and released far
superior parts with the Core and Xeon brands.

If there was a monopoly over the last decade it was only because AMD wasn't
producing a competitive offering. It was not because of marketplace abuses
like Intel's been accused of in the past.

~~~
zbobet2012
Well that and paying/forcing vendors not to place AMD chips in laptops. A
practice Intel lost a lawsuit for and owes AMD billions that are still unpaid.

~~~
chx
> owes AMD billions that are still unpaid.

source?

~~~
chx
I found [https://www.pcper.com/news/General-Tech/Intel-still-hasnt-
pa...](https://www.pcper.com/news/General-Tech/Intel-still-hasnt-paid-
AMD-12-billion-USD-anti-trust-fine) but nothing else. That's 1.2 if this
article is correct.

------
simias
There's basically no content in there, only speculation unless I missed
something.

The "surprise" is that there are four dies in the CPU, two of which appear to
be unused (I'm not sure how they reached that conclusion, I can't see the
video).

It's not particularly surprising or novel though, and there can be many
reasonable explanation about why they would do such a thing and the article
doesn't reach a conclusion. Silicon is cheap, maybe those are non-functional
dies just here for mechanical reasons.

~~~
anoother
> two of which appear to be unused (I'm not sure how they reached that
> conclusion, I can't see the video).

Have seen the video. Der8auer planned a test to ascertain this, but was
unable. AMD later confirmed it to him.

------
bitmapbrother
I was watching a couple of Intel CPU delidding video's and I was surprised by
how they were getting drops of up to 20 degrees in CPU temperature by simply
removing the cheap thermal paste Intel put on the die and replacing it with
quality thermal paste.

~~~
valarauca1
Its hilarious too because this is such a minor part of the CPU manufacturing
process. Especially for the _enthusiast_ market.

Then you consider this is their answer to AMD's new chips, cutting corners...

~~~
BoorishBears
They usually replace the thermal paste with solder, solder has a different set
of challenges.

~~~
seanp2k2
Intel could still use better TIM, or even the fancy liquid metal stuff. The
fact that you can gain massive thermal benefits just from swapping it out with
something better than the stuff they're using on a $1000+ CPU is pretty
terrible. Even from a business perspective, a big temp drop is pretty
marketable, especially for laptops where I'm sure they're doing the same
thing. It's like buying a Ferrari and having it come with Arizonan tires which
are glued on.

~~~
pantalaimon
laptop CPUs usually don't have a heat spreader though, but I agree with your
point.

------
crb002
Make one good die with low enough area to have good yield. Mass produce the
fuck out of it. $$$

~~~
dsr_
They are. Then they package 1, 2, or 4 of them.

It looks to me like the entirety of Zen from $100 to $1000 CPUs is the same
design, the same manufacturing process, the same chips, just bucketed
according to speed test and failed cores and arranged into MCM packaging.

------
bitmapbrother
That "surprise" is very reminiscent of their old X3 line of CPU's where they
disabled 1 core for "yield" reasons. But, if you had the right motherboard you
could unlock that 4th core and turn it into an X4.

~~~
onli
Only in the beginning though. Later on they changed how X3s were produced and
unlocking the 4th core became regularly impossible, either because there was
no 4th core or because it really was broken. I had one of those later
models...

Buy early if you want to profit from this, if that turns out to be possible.

~~~
flyinghamster
Even some of their early X2s were unlockable. I'm posting this from a system
with a Phenom II 550 X2 Black, running with two extra cores enabled. It has
been rock-solid from the beginning, as long as I don't try to overclock it.
Temperatures stay within limits as well, even with the stock cooler.

When compiling a large J2EE project in NetBeans, it is slightly faster than my
FX 6100, with both systems running solid-state drives.

------
fhood
Could someone please explain to me why you would use thermal paste over solder
and vice versa?

~~~
dom0
Solder between IHS and die means that there is a through and through metal
connection. This results in a low thermal resistance, allowing better boosts
and overclocking and/or lower temperatures. (This is the best we can currently
do with flip chips; in power electronics direct bonding to a metal substrate
is used instead, which results in even lower thermal resistances, and thus
higher power densities).

However. Soldering these is quite difficult with smaller dice and thermal
cycling can result in cracks which impacts reliability, because silicon, the
solder and the IHS have different thermal expansion coefficients. There are
multiple processing steps required and the solder used is of course special as
well. (In fact, in the article you can see the gold plated areas on the
nickel-plated IHS where the dice make contact).

TIM (i.e. thermal paste) is very easy to apply and has a predictable lifespan
pretty much regardless of die size. The thermal resistance is much worse,
though.

~~~
vbezhenar
I've heard a few complaints that after 1-2 years processors with thermal paste
starts to get hot, like +10 +20 degrees on the same load. The only way to fix
it is to disassemble processor (risking to damage it) and replace thermal
paste with liquid metal. That's the main thing I don't like about new Intels
and I'm not sure if I would buy them.

~~~
velobro
I feel like I'm starting to notice this as well because my i5-4670k is idling
around 40 °C on an H100i even after clearing out trapped dust

~~~
BoorishBears
After 2 years at 5Ghz daily I don't think my idle temps have changed on my
4690k. That being said I just ordered a 4790k that was delidded and soldered
by Silicon Lottery because I was pushing the high 80s under load since day 1.

------
poizan42
Yes, so according to PC World these extra "chips" are actually just spacers
for mechanical stability:
[http://www.pcworld.com/article/3211409/computers/why-
ryzen-t...](http://www.pcworld.com/article/3211409/computers/why-ryzen-
threadripper-has-two-mysterious-chips.amp.html)

~~~
vesrah
This is hear-say, where-as AMD previously confirmed and gave written
permission to der8auer for his video.

~~~
poizan42
Which they retracted again. I don't think we know anything before either AMD
says something officially or someone decaps the chips.

------
Crontab
The last time I built my own PC, it was a Pentium 4 that used RD-Ram, and I
put it in a case I bought from PC Power and Cooling - so a long time ago.

I mention this because all these AMD threads are making me get the itch. And
it might be a good idea to support some competition with Intel.

Can anyone point me to a good information resource for these new chips?

~~~
onli
Have a look at the Gamersnexus reviews if you are interested in general
Ryzen/Zen information. They do not cover only gaming, and made a good
impression on me. The pendants on anandtech could be helpful as well.

For threadripper I would wait a bit till the release articles roll out. That
release will be covered extensively. But what is expected is "just" a bigger
Ryzen processor with more cores and maybe some latency issues, tbd.

[http://www.gamersnexus.net/hwreviews/2822-amd-
ryzen-r7-1800x...](http://www.gamersnexus.net/hwreviews/2822-amd-
ryzen-r7-1800x-review-premiere-blender-fps-benchmarks)

[http://www.gamersnexus.net/hwreviews/2875-amd-r5-1600x-1500x...](http://www.gamersnexus.net/hwreviews/2875-amd-r5-1600x-1500x-review-
fading-i5-argument)

[http://www.gamersnexus.net/hwreviews/3002-amd-r3-1200-review...](http://www.gamersnexus.net/hwreviews/3002-amd-r3-1200-review-
line-between-fine-and-exciting/page-4)

------
matt_wulfeck
So there's 2 "unused" cores on the die. Does anyone know if it's usually
possible to "unlock" the additional cores? Is it a physical disabling or
something like microcode?

~~~
lewisj489
While Intel generally physically disables cores, AMD is usually software

------
sbierwagen
The youtube video has been made private?

~~~
anoother
It's been removed.

Seems AMD retracted permission:
[https://youtu.be/JbffGyrkjMM](https://youtu.be/JbffGyrkjMM)

Managed to see it before it was taken away. I wonder why AMD changed their
mind on this... Could Threadripper and EPYC be cross-compatible after all?

------
alexandercrohde
Could anybody who upvoted this please explain why they think this is
newsworthy?

~~~
alexandercrohde
could anybody who downvoted this please explain why?

~~~
fragmede
This post contains interesting technical implementation details as to AMD's
latest entry into the desktop CPU arena, which by all accounts is _very_
strong competition with Intel's offerings. (Faster _and_ cheaper!) This is
relevant to anyone with more than a passing interest in doing things
computers, though the exact level of personal interest may vary.

Additionally:

> Please don't submit comments complaining that a submission is inappropriate
> for the site.

Whether your original comment was meant to indicate complaint, it certainly
comes across that way.

Site guidelines:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html](https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html)

~~~
alexandercrohde
Well I'm skeptical, but it was a genuine question. I am doubly skeptical that
the best response to skepticism is downvoting rather than articulating a
response.

~~~
nv-vn
Downvoting doesn't mean your post was bad. It just means that it shouldn't be
at the top of the thread because it's irrelevant. I downvoted the top post
because when opening this thread, I should see actual discussion about the
article before seeing "why was this upvoted?".

~~~
alexandercrohde
I guess that's a fair enough explanation of the original question being
downvoted.

However that same logic couldn't really justify the downvoting of my follow-up
"could anybody who downvoted this please explain why?"

~~~
nv-vn
True, I think that people were just over-reacting to what they saw as spam and
downvoted all of it.

