
Why It's a Bad Idea to Tell Students Words Are Violence - steamer25
https://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2017/07/why-its-a-bad-idea-to-tell-students-words-are-violence/533970/?utm_source=twb&amp;single_page=true
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saurik
I am going to go so far as to say this article is being actively and
intentionally intellectually dishonest, as the author seems to understand
enough of the issues surrounding violence and speech and yet wrote an
incipiently long article whose first sentence admitted that some speech could
be violent but did not once attempt to analyze _Milo 's speech_ to see if it
even met the author's own test for violence; not a single time here am I
seeing quotes from Milo designed to make his speech look OK not at any point
does the author note the actual reasons why protestors claimed Milo's speech
is violence: there is just a banal assumption drawn to the length of being
what I will again call out as a _dishonest_ straw man :/.

So, the reason that people I know are so horrified by Milo is that he was
calling out undocumented and transgendered students by name; not just talking
about what he dislikes about these groups, but calling them before the mob of
his audience on an individual basis, knowing full well that many of his
audience members would go find that person and take out their issues on that
person, all while not even trying to hedge the situation to demonized his own
followers who turned to such levels; and, for the undocumented, essentially
turning a microscope on them and making it highly likely they could find
themselves deported.

This, to me, fits a usage of the term "violence". Maybe you disagree. Maybe
the author also disagrees, but I don't know, as I will now again say that as
the author didn't even ask this question, which let them respond to a weird
philosophy piece that also didn't seem to care to ask anyone involved, which I
find so ludicrously questionable in their position and with their clear
understanding of other issues as to be outright dishonest. This is an article
talking with another article about a group of people, and yet those people
were not consulted? This should not happen.

Regardless, with this information, you now get to do what the author should
have done: discuss whether you think this speech is violent--not just any
speech, and not the perfect speech that this author might hope you are
expecting, but the specific speech involved in the incidents on college
campuses which are used in the author's examples and that are required to
claim the reactions are incompatible. In all seriousness: even if you still
disagree that Milo is violent, I hope we can at least agree that this article
sucks.

~~~
Chris2048
> he was calling out undocumented

Does this mean people in the country illegally? What's wrong with that??

edit: I mean what's wrong with reporting them

~~~
sharemywin
He wasn't reporting them he was calling them out to a mob. (according to
grandparent. Don't have first hand knowledge.)

~~~
Chris2048
I meant when OP said:

> making it highly likely they could find themselves deported

Also, "calling out" in the presence of a mob? It seems he was rumoured to call
them out in general, which is disputed?

[http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/uc-
berkely-...](http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/uc-berkely-
protests-milo-yiannopoulos-publicly-name-undocumented-students-cancelled-talk-
illegals-a7561321.html)

------
girvo
Andrew Bolt (an absolute piece of crap as far as I'm concerned), was feature
in a video on twitter the other day being randomly attacked by two masked
"antifa" people. Since when did we decide using the tactics of the people were
fighting against is acceptable? :(

~~~
tuxracer
"anti"fa uses violence in an attempt to terrorize people into not speaking
about things they disagree with. They're effectively a violent terrorist
organization. It's just a great reminder that extremism can form regardless of
political or religious labels.

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ryanx435
This article is written as a direct response (although it isn't explicitly
stated) of NPRs interview with Milo that was just released.

Turns out Milo was completely reasonable in the interview, so NPR kept pushing
back the publication date of the interview, so Milo published the whole thing
on his own.

Give it a listen before judging him:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kmQe1tWVBk8](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kmQe1tWVBk8)

~~~
smt88
Do we need to listen to that interview before judging him? He's done enough
repulsive things outside of this one interview that it doesn't matter much
what he says (unless he regrets all of it and vows to change his ways).

~~~
ryanx435
Your thinking is similar to that of the German people during the 1930s.

"Do we need to listen to the Jews before judging them? They've done enough
repulsive things that it doesn't matter much what they say (unless they
renounce their faith and vow to accept Christ as their saviour)"

~~~
smt88
That is astonishingly illogical as an analogy.

"Jews" are a culture. They're a category of people. Milo is a single person.

Germans in the 1930's didn't know what Jews "had done" because they were fed
propaganda and because Jews had not "done" anything as a group. They were many
individual people.

Milo is _one person_ , and I've seen videos of him saying disgusting,
unacceptable things. He advocates persecution and preying on vulnerable
people, like the trans student he accused of being a pervert.

If you're arguing that one shouldn't judge someone else with incomplete
evidence, that's fine. But that means I can't judge him either before _or
after_ seeing the video, because it's impossible to have 100% of the evidence
about anyone.

I know what Milo's goals are. I know that he's a troll. I've decided what I
think about that, and unless he changes his M.O., a new video isn't going to
tell me anything.

It's arrogant to suggest that people are under-informed or ignorant just
because they disagree with you.

~~~
ryanx435
First, thanks for the more lengthy and well thought out reply.

Second, all I did was take your words and transpose them from being about Milo
to being about Jews. Take a second and think about how easy it was to
misrepresent your ideas and motivations based on one comment taken out of
context, then please realize that that is what has happened systemically to
Milo and others over the course of the last few years.

You seem like a reasonable individual. Why is it so hard for you to see your
own hypocrisy!

Please take the 45 minutes and watch the NPR video.

~~~
aaomidi
You didn't make an argument. Your "transpose" is literally called a strawman
argument.

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woodandsteel
Haidt and Lukianoff are saying that universities should be places where
students learn to engage in reasoned debate and discussion, instead of being
indoctrinated in a particular ideology. I agree.

If you like what they are saying, check out their organization at
heterodoxacademy.org/

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kofejnik
> She was kicked out of the sauna. She said "At this point I don't look very
> female", and that her drivers license reflects a male identity and she
> hadn't started hormone therapy.

As a non-American, I don't understand. Do you mean that any male can claim to
be a trans-female at any time and therefore expect to be allowed to use
women's sauna? And this is how it should be? I mean, isn't there possibility
for abuse? And not agreeing with this labels you a terrible person?

While at the same time, feminists scream abuse when someone looks at them
inappropriately on the street.

I am completely baffled.

~~~
dangerface
In my country saunas are unisex like swimming pools, I have never heard of it
being an issue.

~~~
gambiting
Yeah, I've been to saunas all over Europe and I've never seen a gender-
segregated one.

