
The Last Florida Indians Will Now Die: The Westward Plight of the Apalachee - samclemens
http://www.oxfordamerican.org/magazine/item/930-the-last-florida-indians-will-now-die
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x86_64Ubuntu
I've always been upset at how those of us in the indigenous communities cling
to Christianity as some absolving attribute. Land stolen, dignity stolen,
labor stolen, and for some reason we seek refuge in a religion that was
largely imposed on us.

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ittekimasu
It's not just you; happens the world over. Phillipines, Africa ... nearly all
colonized peoples - if not in "religion", then in culture and language.

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DefaultUserHN
Shame that this is what usually happens when you gets conquered. You're
literally at the mercy of your conquerors.

Why don't conquerors ever treat the people they conquered with respect, and
work hard to make their life better? Why do conquerors always make life harder
and worst for the people they conquered?

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humanrebar
Any perspectives on post WWII Germany and the Marshall Plan? American
textbooks teach that honorable conquest was the exact goal of that initiative.
Is Germany worse off now? Or Japan? Or South Korea?

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DefaultUserHN
Interesting. I am surprised that this was not widely taught in schools where I
am from. They tend to focus on the negative aspects of America only.

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taksintikk
Native Americans ..not Indians.

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rhino369
Both terms are fine unless someone personally asks you to stop.

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witty_username
As an Asian Indian, it confused me for a few seconds.

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formula1
This really hit home for me though I don't particularly care for the retelling
of history as if it was a movie. I understand the need to give perspective in
order to understand the effect that Europe had on Native Americans both in
north and south america. I always relate it to an invasive species that out
matches the an ecosystem and doesnt curb its hunger because there is no reason
to.

I find it particularly poetic how the Chief said with pride "We were the first
Christian tribe". Christianity originating from the middle east with the new
testimate being under European rule. Has been used countless times in europe
to excuse genocide and invasion. Was brought by europeans under a guise of
peace mission whom eventually went on to completely ravage two continents.
Christianity even today is used to excuse persecution and oppress. Yet despite
all of this, knowing it is not native gods and being on the brink of
extinction and erasure from memory. He takes pride in the lasting faith in the
tribe. And imagining him say those words I think of dedication and love.

Im sensitive about this because I feel like I would be consudered a necessary
sacrifice or even entertaining to dominate/exploit. This particular board
tends to attract alpha mentalities in the startup industry So Im curious on
your thoughts

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einhverfr
Christianity, like Islam, and Secular Humanism is fundamentally
internationalist, holding itself to be the universal ideal of correctness.
Christianity and Islam both came out of, effectively the Roman Empire (in fact
both the Mosque and Cathedral were built based on the plans of the same
classes of Roman buildings). Secular Humanism is effectively a
reinterpretation of Calvinism along atheistic lines.

As far as I can see, however, Orthodox Christianity didn't have the same
history in this regard as Western Christianity did. Part of this was that the
Eastern Empire lasted a lot longer, and part was that the spread occurred to
Kiev and Novogorod under very different circumstances than it did to Denmark
or the Franks. But in the West, the promise offered was that the Church
(Roman) would help kings solidify power in return for conversion. It was from
that promise that eventually the kings secured their independence by means of
the reformation. And secular humanism is effectively an effort to banish
competition to the state from the public square in this regard so it too is a
further development of the same mistake.

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ittekimasu
That is a very astute observation. Those of us who've seen secular humanist
tenets of "rights", being cynically used for all sorts of geopolitical ends,
will realize how easy it is to excite folk with such talking points.

People don't realize the dangers of such universalist notions.

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einhverfr
And of course there is no cross-cultural empistemology that allows us to know
which rights are universal, so they always become an excuse to power.

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ittekimasu
Indeed. Worse yet, those alien to this sphere, are not even aware of this lack
of understanding - which is probably why it is so destructive, culturally, for
colonized peoples.

I would've hoped those in "social sciences" would work to rectify such issues,
but in their new garb of post-modernism, they've yet more become the new
priesthood.

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einhverfr
Indeed. The only reason I can see the other side to this is that I have been
married to a woman from a Indonesia for over a decade now. It has been a long
process to understand the cultural differences. And I have enjoyed studying
anthropology quite a lot.

The one thing that does save things a little bit is that Westerners are
usually so out of touch that there really isn't much room for us to do much
that doesn't just effectively turn into disengagement. But even that poses
real problems. I do my best to help engage in dialog on both sides of very
culturally bound issues in order to try to foster some room for dialog through
disagreement but getting Westerners in general (and Americans in particular)
to accept that an issue like abortion or same-sex marriage is dependent on
culture and other cultural institutions (such as how family relates to the
economic order) is virtually impossible.

That also gets to what is wrong with multiculturalism in the US, namely that
it is being pushed by people who hate culture generally.

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ittekimasu
> That also gets to what is wrong with multiculturalism in the US, namely that
> it is being pushed by people who hate culture generally.

I couldn't agree more; this'd have been okay had US not been so powerful
geopolitically, but alas. You'll probably enjoy the tapestry around L.
Carroll's "The Walrus and the Carpenter" given in "God and Gold".

([http://www.cfr.org/religion/god-
gold/p13990](http://www.cfr.org/religion/god-gold/p13990))

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einhverfr
Looks fascinating. The abstract dovetails on Hilaire Belloc's "The Servile
State" in interesting ways. Belloc argued that the key to the success of the
industrial revolution in the UK was the confiscation of Catholic church lands
under Henry VIII because this created destitute masses that could be exploited
in the factories. So to Belloc, Protestantism as a political system was the
key to understanding the economic problems of Capitalism.

Thinking about Belloc's thesis a bit more, you have a parallel to the
Confiscation of the monasteries in the US, and that was the liberation of the
slaves. One can think about slave-based agriculture in the Antebellum South as
increasingly industrialized (and even increasingly exploitative as a result).
And the civil war not only empowered corporations with large military
contracts but also in its resolution provided them with destitute masses
pushed into the wage labor system. As I usually say, all racial oppression in
the US has been economic in both ends and means.

But in both cases, the religious landscape evolved to match the economic
landscape. And the ideological landscape quickly followed. In some rural parts
of the US it is still possible to have a discussion about common good, even
with people one politically disagrees with. But in the cities, it is all about
individualism and rights and any questioning of the in-group orthodoxy gets
one labeled as "the enemy."

It took me actually living in Indonesia for a number of years to grasp the
depth of difference there. And one of the things that is worth repeating often
is that when third worlders speak of first world problems, they don't regard
these as trivialities. Indonesians and Malaysians don't want to become like
Americans and grow old alone. To those in the third world[1], they have
already rejected what Americans and British hold to be (paraphrasing Thatcher)
without alternative. I now count myself in the same category.

[1] using the term in the original sense, namely countries which reject both
Anglo-American capitalism and Soviet/Chinese Communism. I sometimes refer to
Sweden as third world for this reason also, though it is far more Capitalist
than others.

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kome
I reply to this just to say thank you! (and to save the comment for future
reference)

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reitanqild
> Christianity even today is used to excuse persecution and oppress.

I guess that is totally fair as long as we also keep in mind that most of the
biggest crimes against humanity were committed by proclaimed atheists.

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0134340
Still, none of those were committed in the doctrine of atheism. Atheism has no
doctrine yet you can point to many people who kill today and many in the past
who point to their holy texts after they've cut people's heads off, drowned
"witches" and otherwise stole life and land in the name of their gods.

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reitanqild
Splitting hairs?

A number of atrocities has been made in effort to rid the world of the plague
of religion. Call it ateism or what, point is they made a point out of being
non-religious and they were extremely cruel and effective.

Now, listen up. I'm not here to attack atheists or non-believers. I only do
when they start by proclaiming how religion is the root of all evil.

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posterboy
You are right to partially dismiss this, because the Indians weren't oppressed
because of religion. The sense of supremacy responsible, racism and narcissism
etc., are rooted way deeper.

However, the points you argue weren't stated as absolute as you make them
(using exaggeration as literary device?). On the one hand, "holding itself to
be the universal ideal of correctness" is a correct characterization of
religions. On the other, your view is partial in favor of religion, while
religions as well state that atheism or any other religion is the root of all
evil.

