
Eero – Blanket your home in fast, reliable WiFi - alexis
https://www.eero.com/
======
rndmize
I'm hopeful this is as solid as the video makes it look. All the points it
covers - forgotten passwords, bad coverage, troublesome initial configuration,
no easy way to extend a network - are things I've seen people choke on.

I don't really agree with the negativity here; sure it probably doesn't do as
much as ubiquiti gear or dd-wrt or whatever, and it may cost more, but I think
for the average person these are far outweighed by the "throw another box at
it" simplicity.

~~~
lunixbochs
I really like this. Executed properly, it will solve WiFi issues for medium to
large in-home deployments. I think the killer angle is the ease of setup and
configurability. The most important tech here to me is the fact it promises to
self-update and try its hardest to never stop working. _If their marketing is
accurate_ , I'd recommend this in any simple deployment requiring _more than
one router_. (Say, throw it in your parent's large house and trust it will
just keep working over time)

That said, a current-gen AirPort Express or Extreme covers many of the points
here.

\- You can set it up in seconds from your phone, if you have an iPhone.
(Otherwise, you're stuck with OS X, Windows, or the Windows utility on WINE,
though there are some okay open-source config utils).

\- It's going to be pretty much rock solid. They're very good about
reacquiring network access, and the firmware is about the cleanest I've ever
seen on a router from a technical perspective (the iCloud services are a bit
weird, but those are optional).

\- You really only need one of them to serve single-level homes /apartments
where they'll be punching through less than 5-6 walls.

\- It _won 't_ auto-update, but some might consider this a feature.

\- If you plug a second AirPort in, it asks if you want to extend the first
network.

That aside, the bandwidth reduction from a multihop mesh would likely make the
Eero unsuitable for my needs (I tend to saturate AC, so I just throw more
wired access points at the coverage problem to keep my bandwidth up).

~~~
aidenn0
I lived in a 2 BR condo and couldn't get any AP that would cover all of it.
The cable came in on one side of the condo, and I lost about 20dB to each
wall; someone suggested from the age of construction that I might have wire-
mesh in the plaster.

~~~
SriniK
I use Powerline Adapter and use local router for different floors in my house.
This might be the best option: [Amazon Link]
[http://goo.gl/1FqGHY](http://goo.gl/1FqGHY)

~~~
ehPReth
Note that there's a newer standard out for HomePlug devices (AV2):
[http://www.homeplug.org/tech-
resources/hpav2_next_gen/](http://www.homeplug.org/tech-
resources/hpav2_next_gen/) . I believe certified devices started showing up
for sale not too long ago

------
bornabox
Seems like a lot of marketing talk. It's a mesh-network (so you need multiple
units to make it work). Mesh is better then 'range-extenders' but slows down,
as you add more nodes. Don't know if they're doing the mesh on one frequency
(5.8 GHz) and the connection on the other (2.4 GHz) or vice versa, but it
would make sense. The devices all talk both frequencies as per specs.

Still, well done video, using your phone to connect for the first time (via
Bluetooth) is clever etc.

Don't know if I believe all the 'never reboot a router again'-spiel, even more
expensive gear needs to be power-cycled once in a while. Unless they do that
auto-magically at night when you don't use it (that might or might not be
clever - depends on you use-case).

~~~
quinndupont
Yeah, I'm pretty curious to see what secret sauce they would have had to have
invented to make these claims. If true, this would all be great, but seems
damn unlikely.

------
_JamesA_
The Eero 3 pack is listed for pre-order at $299 and $125 per individual unit.

I can pick up a Ubiquiti UniFi 3 pack for $189 or individually for $64 at
Amazon today.

[http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B005EORRBW/ref=olp_product_...](http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B005EORRBW/ref=olp_product_details?ie=UTF8&me=)

~~~
benjaminl
Since the Eero supports 5 Ghz, the equivalent UniFi is the UAP-Pro which costs
$199 per access point.

[http://www.amazon.com/Ubiquiti-Networks-UAP-PRO-
Enterprise-S...](http://www.amazon.com/Ubiquiti-Networks-UAP-PRO-Enterprise-
System/dp/B0089QB1SC)

Also setting up a Ubiquiti UniFi is an enterprise level product, with all the
complexity that implies.

Update: See
[http://wiki.ubnt.com/UniFi_FAQ#Wireless_Uplink](http://wiki.ubnt.com/UniFi_FAQ#Wireless_Uplink)
as an example of what is required to setup Ubiquiti's answer to mesh
networking. Note that this requires the user to setup server software to do
the provisioning.

~~~
miles
_setting up a Ubiquiti UniFi is an enterprise level product, with all the
complexity that implies._

The many positive Amazon reviews seem to suggest otherwise.

Here's a sampling:

"This was very easy to install and configure and has great coverage in our
3,500 sq ft home."

"As a tech savvy, but non-technically trained individual - this WAP was
extremely easy to configure and provides exceptional wireless range and
speed."

"I can't say enough how simple the installation process on these has been..."

Note, however, that the Java Runtime Environment is required to configure the
software. I guess the dream of the 90s is alive at Ubiquiti.

------
xpose2000
If this came out 5 years ago, I would say it may be worth a look. Coverage was
spotty and slow at times. However, routers have come a long way since our
favorite Blue Linksys WRT54 router.

They are faster than ever, and have a bigger range than ever before. I suggest
skipping the Eero and opting for something like this:
[http://www.cnet.com/products/asus-ac2400-rt-ac87u-dual-
band-...](http://www.cnet.com/products/asus-ac2400-rt-ac87u-dual-band-
wireless-gigabit-router/)

~~~
thaumaturgy
Even powerful routers / access points like that one have difficulty with
certain types of home construction or layouts. Older buildings with narrow
hallways, heavy wood beam construction, lath and plaster, multiple levels, or
brick construction all pose some challenges for wifi devices. Homes with
detached units, like a small shop, don't usually get both covered very well
without extra devices.

You're right that the average Bay Area cardboard box doesn't need these, but
the world's a lot bigger than the Bay Area.

------
txu
It's good to see disruption in home networking with better UX. It's not hard
to agree the "Admin Consoles" running at 192.168.0.1 look a bit outdated now,
both in terms of ease of use and elegance of design. Also the reliability of
WiFi will be more critical as more devices are connected in our home,
especially to non-technical users.

But the price is a bummer. Routers are dirt cheap nowadays ( during
Christmas/Thanksgiving a dual-band was only $18). I've got one WiFi router for
each room, backed by Powerline, and the total was probably only ~$200.

Well I guess $100 isn't too much for peace of mind, if it really works as
advertised...

~~~
thaumaturgy
If your routers don't do zero handoff (Ubiquiti's term for seamlessly
switching control from router to router as you move through a coverage area),
then Eero might have some benefit.

~~~
walshemj
Mobile ip is the technical term Cisco Airnet stuff has had this for ages.

------
uean
Fancy website. Here's another product creeping into the same space \-
[http://www.ubnt.com/unifi/unifi-ap/](http://www.ubnt.com/unifi/unifi-ap/)

Finally bumping out Aerohive, Meraki and others determined to destroy my
wallet.

------
drzaiusapelord
>No ethernet wiring or IT degree required.

So... you buy 3 WAPs, one acts as a router, and I guess they all talk to each
other via wifi bridging. At the right pricepoint this must be attractive for
those who just want something "that works" but if its too expensive, just
using plain old wifi bridging will beat them out. Not sure how business will
react to this as they typically have ethernet all over the place and don't
need, or want, wireless bridging of access points.

I do wonder why no one has made a wifi device that does bridging over 5ghz but
does 2.4ghz for clients. No client-side interference issues to worry about as
the three WAPs communicate with each other, but at the cost of 5ghz for
clients (which most clients dont support).

I think the larger issue here is why wifi gets so little spectrum from the
FCC. It would be nice if we moved towards opening up some more spectrum for
home wifi. Perhaps start working on making channel 2.4ghz 14 work, like they
have in Japan. Shame the sweet 700mhz band was sold to the telecoms instead of
given to the people for open access. So here we are with the status quo of
"just add more access points" and hope to god all your neighbors don't do the
same. As someone who has neighbors who already do this, it pisses me off there
aren't any clear channels for me to use, so I'm always dealing with
interference.

I think eero could really cause some problems as one apartment dweller could
take up all three overlapping channels very quickly and now everyone else
around her is suddenly getting half or less the speed they are used to. In the
age of 50-100mbps internet to the home, suddenly being unable to get all of
that via wireless-N sucks. I have 50mbps internet, and can barely crack 30mbps
over wifi no matter what channel I use. Over wired ethernet, I get all 50mbps.
Netstumbler shows me, amongst other WAPs, my neighbor has 3 AP's with the same
SSID using all three non-overlapping channels, which is pretty much what eero
is. So what now? Nothing, I just have to suck it up or hope that wifi AC fixes
everything. I suspect AC won't make much of a difference if it doesn't have
the available spectrum.

Also, anyone else impressed with the PR this thing is getting? Its on all my
feeds/sites/etc. Someone is paying for quite a marketing campaign.

------
bgix
I have been peppering eero's "Questions" link for the past few days, and have
gotten a lot of information, and have been suitably impressed enough to pre-
order.

1\. In the Mesh, all units using the same MAC address and Channel. This means
no actual "hand-off" needs to be made from the perspective of the client
device, even as you move about the covered area. It sounds like Antenna
Diversity on Steroids.... There will need to be multi-path-rx consolidation
done within the mesh, and some decision making which eero (and which antenna
on the specific eero) to send device bound packets to.

2\. According to another response I got, however the mesh is currently formed,
it's day-to-day operation can be supported both wirelessly or hard-wired
(cat5). I am guessing (hoping) this means that a giga-switch could be
installed _between_ eeros, and I will be able to use my previously installed
pulled cat5 cabling to reach from my Router in the basement to my top AP two
floors up.... the guy indicated that wire based mesh will still be faster (at
least from a latency perspective) than a fully wireless based mesh. I intend
to have a hybrid wired-wireless mesh unless it proves to be too much hype.

3\. I did not get a definitive answer (I don't think) about the usefulness of
the 2 gigaports on each eero. They are both WAN/LAN auto-sensing, but was
hoping to learn that they could _both_ could be used as LAN ports at the same
time.... Maybe they can, maybe they can't, but at least one can be a LAN.

4\. I have not really received an answer on how "customizable" the QoS
settings are. I have a lot of "critical bandwidth" devices (tivos, game
consoles, VOIP) and I would like "massagable" QoS settings, by port and by
fixed IP or MAC.

------
kalessin
If you need a repeater somewhere well, like your laptop, your repeater isn't
going to have a good connection with the base station. Most homes make it
really hard to deploy WiFi properly, especially in the 5ghz band, I don't see
how they are solving this. The only way is in-wall Ethernet and different
access points, hopefully they also support that.

~~~
weaves
@kalessin Nick the Co-founder and CEO of eero here. You're totally correct
about 5 GHz - it doesn't get through walls particularly well. That's where
having a distributed mesh versus one router is really helpful. By placing a
few of our units through your home we're typically able to have 5GHz links
between our devices and 5 GHz links out to clients.

~~~
seanp2k2
Does each unit have 2 radios (e.g. 2x 5ghz radios)? Trunking and communicating
with clients with one radio would give you less than half of the normal
bandwidth, which is why lots of wireless meshes trunk on a different frequency
(though I'd prefer the option of trunking via Ethernet). Unless wifi chipsets
have become very clever in the past few years, it seems like this wouldn't
allow max throughout.

~~~
weaves
Yes, we have 2 x 5 GHz. You can also use the gigabit ports as well.

~~~
lunixbochs
The spec sheet claims "Dual WiFi radios" as well as "Simultaneous 2.4GHz and
5GHz wireless". This tells me you're probably using a pair of dual-mode
2.4GHz/5GHz radios if you can act in dual-5GHz mode.

Assuming this radio setup:

Do you dedicate one of the radios to the mesh communication?

If so, does this mean you have a non-simultaneous dual-band 2.4/5 on the other
radio for client devices?

Do you intelligently switch the mesh radio between 2.4GHz and 5GHz on a per-
access point basis based on what gives the best ratio of packet loss to
bandwidth to the surrounding mesh nodes?

How many antennas do you have per radio/band?

------
jbob2000
Cool, but I don't have enough of an issue with my wifi to make the switch.

I'm also really skeptical of anything that calls itself "self-fixing". I have
yet to see any tech get that right. Usually that just means "we obscured most
of the settings you need to fix things away from you, hidden behind a fancy
UI".

------
azurelogic
I'm skeptical of the app based setup. This thing is dripping with a nice
glossy coat of "made for non-technical users". I sure hope they have provided
means for reserved IPs and custom port forwarding for when people need it.
Bonus if it can update dynamic DNS for me.

~~~
andyana
Why would APs need to do any of that stuff?

~~~
wmf
People are going to expect this system to also do routing/firewalling/etc.

~~~
andyana
Those same people expect their fridge to make them coffee.

~~~
schwap
... or they simply expect it to do what their existing WiFi AP/router combo
already does?

~~~
MichaelApproved
Just because their existing router had the capabilities to do it, doesn't mean
that the average person is using or needs that capability.

~~~
wmf
Doesn't almost everyone use the NAT functionality in their home router? It's
hard to even find a consumer AP that isn't also a NAT router. This strongly
implies that any consumer AP better also include NAT.

~~~
andyana
They're not really hard to find. Here's one I found in 10 seconds from my
neighborhood electronic shop: [http://www.futureshop.ca/en-ca/product/d-link-
d-link-unified...](http://www.futureshop.ca/en-ca/product/d-link-d-link-
unified-wireless-n-poe-access-point-dwl-2600ap-
dwl-2600ap/10247011.aspx?path=4385ffa7e6ca5d25c3f79c5aafdd1ca4en02)

While, I get what you are saying with regards to most people expecting wifi
and routing in an all-in-one package, this is clearly not what Eero is meant
to do. If someone buys this expecting it do everything, then they will
probably be able to return it for a full refund.

------
matdrewin
Not sure this business case is as obvious as the Nest Thermostat or Smoke
Detector. I found my Time Capsule pretty easy to setup. Router is located in
the basement and range is good all around my two story 1500 sq ft house.
Performance is pretty awesome as well. Only addition here is Bluetooth which
removes need for direct ethernet and passwords for remote administration.

------
essayist
Moderately off topic question for everyone who could whip up a superior
solution over lunch with two Arduinos and a Raspberry Pi ;-)

Where does one go (as a somewhat technical non-Wifi expert) to get guidance on
positioning, configuring, naming just two wifi routers for a 700 square foot
apartment? (E.g. should I have both on the same channel? Should I have the
same or different SSIDs?)

~~~
lunixbochs
You shouldn't need two routers in normal apartment conditions. Unless your
walls are filled with water or contain a tuned copper mesh, you should
probably just spend more on your main router, make sure to use 5GHz, and run
wires if that doesn't work. Unlike 2.4GHz with 1-3 non-overlapping channels
available (depending on your chosen bandwidth), the 5GHz band has 21 non-
overlapping channels.

You're pretty much guaranteed to be fighting with several neighboring wifi
networks in an apartment (and you're more likely to get the hidden node
problem), so that's pretty much worst case for 2.4GHz.

If you have a legacy requirement for 2.4GHz, try a single ASUS RT-N66U before
installing two routers. I've seen it effortlessly cover several-thousand-
square-foot areas from the back room or basement. I was able to get reasonable
signal from one in a lobby through four vertical floors (and through many
other active wireless networks).

If you want AC / have AC-capable devices: get an AirPort Extreme if you use
Apple hardware, or any of the ASUS AC (like the AC66U) routers otherwise. Be
forewarned: many AC routers on the market _combine_ their maximum 5GHz N speed
and 5GHz AC speed for their "total capable speed", for example "N600 + AC1800
= AC2400!" [1] (it is a very nice router, but you're just about as well off in
an apartment with an AC66U). Also, if you get an ASUS router, make sure to
replace the default firmware with Tomato Shibby or asuswrt-rmerlin as the
stock software has a bad habit of sprouting moderate to critical security
vulns (ASUS isn't special here. Many of the consumer router vendors have this
problem.).

[1]
[http://www.asus.com/us/News/hE5SJg3y7bbIBIGO](http://www.asus.com/us/News/hE5SJg3y7bbIBIGO)

~~~
web007
You just enumerated their main selling points: "run wires if that doesn't
work" and "make sure to replace the default firmware".

I don't think this product is the right one for you, but it is for someone my
parents' age or for my non-technical peers. If my parents / in-laws have WiFi
trouble I wouldn't hesitate to recommend that they get a couple of these.

~~~
lunixbochs
My post was specifically trying to address his questions about wifi deployment
in a 700sqft apartment.

"run wires if that doesn't work": If you can't get decent wifi signal through
an entire 700sqft apartment (where you'll probably have at most 1-2 walls
between your router and computer at any point in time), you have bigger
problems that a mesh network might not solve. At this point, you probably have
too many neighboring wireless networks or bad walls, and mesh networks don't
solve either of these.

"make sure to replace the default firmware": My primary recommendation is
Apple hardware, which is fine on default firmware. I also mentioned ASUS
because some people actively don't want Apple hardware, but I'd venture those
people are also more likely to be happier to install their own firmware/OS
than the average.

------
acd
"eero is the world’s first WiFi system. A set of three eeros covers the
typical home. They connect to create an intelligent mesh network that blankets
any size or shape home in fast, reliable WiFi"

There is another product Open-mesh which is a system which was before eero so
this part of the FAQ needs to be updated.

Smart use of two radios though for the repeating stuff.

~~~
thaumaturgy
Ehh... we used open-mesh for a while, but there's still a lot of room for
improvement. I don't know what their hardware is like now, because we gave up
on it years ago, but when they were running on the Engenius hardware the
reliability was pretty awful. I think we ended up having to replace every
single Engenius unit we deployed.

Then we discovered Ubiquiti and their hardware was amazing, but you couldn't
use it for open-mesh after the FCC tapped Ubiquiti on the shoulder for
allowing their radios to be reconfigured with a different country code.

Open-mesh seems like they're targeting the hobbyist / light commercial
deployment market, Eero looks like they're aiming for the home and end-user
market. Maybe their marketing is stretching things a bit, but I don't think
it's completely out of line.

~~~
monojussi
I deployed and ran a five-unit open-mesh system about a year ago. After some
slight deployment shenanigans, the system was stable and pretty fast.

~~~
thaumaturgy
Oh, good to hear. :-) I like Ubiquiti but I'll keep open-mesh in mind then as
an option.

------
mplummeridge
Sensationalist much? Powerline and/or ethernet backbone is the only way to
keep the limited medium free for reliable WiFi.

------
DanBC
See the identical submission made an hour earlier, but with extra new-account
voting.

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8990369](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8990369)

------
scribu
This reminded me of the ever-failing WiFi at conferences.

I wonder if anyone is working on a relatively easy to set up system that could
be rented out to small conference organizers.

~~~
jsjohnst
Pretty sure the problem at conferences isn't something this is designed to
fix. In simple terms, the issue at conferences is the lack of spectrum. If a
conference wants to have quality wifi, the solution is to use low power radios
with highly directional antennas.

------
lisper
If you're willing to do a little bit of configuration work you can accomplish
the same thing with TPLink WR702N micro routers for $20 each.

~~~
cdawzrd
Well, not quite the same thing... the TP-Link product is 2.4GHz only, which is
kind of a big deal these days. Support in DD-WRT and Tomato for 5GHz and
802.11ac protocols is somewhat shaky today (on some devices at least), but
hopefully will improve.

~~~
lisper
Why is 5GHz a "big deal" rather than a "nice to have" (but no big deal if you
don't)?

~~~
lunixbochs
2.4GHz has three non-overlapping channels. At max bandwidth, it has one non-
overlapping channel.

5GHz has twenty-one non-overlapping channels.

In an apartment building, where you're pretty much guaranteed to be in close
proximity of at least a few other active routers, 5GHz is a big deal.

~~~
aidenn0
Heck, I live in a detached home and have 14 visible networks from my living
room.

------
th0br0
So... a cheap / enduser version of Cisco Meraki?

------
wmf
The FAQ says each unit has two radios, so it's not the same as most of the
mesh stuff that people are talking about in this thread.

~~~
discardorama
Interesting product; but at $125, a bit rich for me.

I was just thinking of putting together a router using a RasPi. What's the
best way to get 802.11 a/b/c/g/n/* capability? Should I use 2 USB dongles, one
for "g" and the other for the rest?

~~~
blacksmith_tb
The RPi is running eth0 and usb over the same bus, which makes it a bad choice
for rolling your own router. Other than the fun of understanding how the parts
fit together, I would be surprised if you could find a dev board that would
outperform a dedicated router in terms of features and power consumption for a
low price. Some of the RPi alternatives might be close, Banana Pi, Odroid,
etc.

------
untog
_eero is the world’s first WiFi system_

Huh?

 _Finally, WiFi that works._

My WiFi works just fine, always has. And if I ever upgrade to an A/C network
it'll be fast, too.

~~~
thaumaturgy
Oh, good point. Clearly if it works just fine for you, it works just fine for
everyone else too. :-)

~~~
untog
What I was saying is that the copy doesn't really do a good job explaining
what it solves. And "first wi-fi system" really does mean nothing.

------
oaf357
This is intriguing but at that price point I'm not sure it's worth it without
some additional detailed tech specs.

------
pbreit
Why does wifi still cost so much? Routers should be $25-50 and repeaters
$15-25.

~~~
wmf
You can get Asian-brand older-generation equipment for those prices. For the
newer standards somebody has to pay for the R&D.

------
kreeger
For a moment there, I thought this was related to the Eero language project
([http://eerolanguage.org](http://eerolanguage.org)).

------
smcquaid
Congrats Amos! These look amazing! (A far sexier model from that black box
prototype you showed me!)

------
IsraCV
I definitely want it, but they aren't shipping to México yet, that's bad news
for me.

------
lazylizard
what is different between this and openmesh?

