
Google requiring contractors get health care coverage, parental leave - pgrote
https://thehill.com/policy/technology/436939-google-will-require-healthcare-parental-leave-for-extended-workforce
======
gundmc
Hacker News is impossible to please when it comes to Google recently. This is
something that is virtually impossible to spin as a bad thing and somehow
almost every comment is negative.

~~~
netwanderer3
There's no denying that Google of today is no longer the same as Google of the
past, however the values their services provide to society are still enormous
and far greater than most other corporations out there.

We have learned that Facebook were indeed running various online campaigns to
smear Google's reputation, just to take the public heat and focus off
themselves. Many people fell for those traps during that time. I personally
feel that those effects are still lasting, or at least still lingering around
the community even until this day.

------
anoncontractor0
What about all of the contractors that they hire that are basically sole
proprietorships?

I know a lot of former Googlers that do project based work for them. This will
often include a former Googler that gets hired for a project, who then will
hire a few freelancers that they know to work on the project with them. Are
these small shops going to have to pay health benefits for their friends that
come together to work on a short project?

~~~
jpatokal
From the friendly article: _The benefits will not extend to independent
contractors, who are self-employed, but they will extend to "vendors,"
employees that work for companies that are under contract with Google.
"Vendors" include those who work in Google's cafes, transportation services
and more."_

~~~
StudentStuff
Ooof, so all the research assistants and other people who work beside Googlers
as Independent Contractors (most of the half of the company that is
purposefully misclassified as 1099's) will continue to lack access to critical
meetings about the project their working on, healthcare, retirement and IRS
deduction split.

Sounds like Google doing the bare minimum to get some good PR, while avoiding
fixing the real issues at hand.

FYI they did the same thing wrt Independent Contractors that get harassed by
Googlers. The contractor is still screwed, Google has ensured they can fire or
suppress the contractor's claim, forcing them to work with their harrasser.
Considering most of these contractors are the bulk of the diversity on campus
(women and/or non-white/non-asian) compared to Google's W-2 workforce, its
likely they are experiencing the bulk of the harassment that occurs at
Googleplexes.

Facebook does the same purposeful misclassification scheme to duck out on
Benefits & ensure their abusive employees are protected.

~~~
joshuamorton
I'm a bit confused here. The (vast) majority of the people who you are calling
"Independent Contractors" are actually "Vendors", ie. employees of 3rd party
contracting firms.

~~~
StudentStuff
Generally these workers are 1099's of said "Vendors", yet they turn up to the
same offices, do the same work as Googlers, and get treated much worse.

The vendor is just an intermediary to add a step of indirection and lack of
accountability.

------
samfisher83
I am not sure how far 15 dollars/hr is going to take you in SV or NYC.

~~~
mjevans
It's a start, but really fixing the problem would be correcting a mis-
regulated market with regulations and encouragements that create many kinds of
housing, retail, office, and production (Industrial zones) to regulate market
price from the supply side.

Regulating the demand requires making more cities worth living in; same basic
ideas (create useful civil infrastructure), but harder since the money has to
come from outside. Well, or we could do WWIII, an pandemic, etc, to constrain
population in less pleasant ways.

15 USD/hour SHOULD be a livable wage, and the fact that it isn't reflects the
insane rent-seeking, regulatory capture in all sorts of forms, and unhealthy
market dynamics leading to inflation outpacing economic prosperity increases
(for a majority of the population).

~~~
dgzl
> 15 USD/hour SHOULD be a livable wage

Says who? These numbers are arbitrary if we're slaves to inflation. $15 now
seems like a goal, but the same amount a century ago was unthinkable. How long
will it be before $15/hr isn't enough for even the most basic needs?

~~~
rak00n
This should be a government's job to decide. Google isn't the authority that
should decide on that.

~~~
gwright
It seems strange to say that Google is the "authority" here. They are making a
choice on how to run their business. There is no "authority" involved in that
decision.

But what makes you think the government should decide either? What makes you
think that the government is capable of discerning the correct number? What
makes you think there must be a single number? And if you think there should
be a single number, why should it be $15/hr vs $10, $20, $50, or $100?

How is it possible for a federal minimum wage to magically be "correct" for
all combinations of:

* geographic location and local economic conditions * experience of worker (e.g. teenagers 1st job vs young-adult vs senior citizen) * part time vs full time * no training required, some training required, lots of training required? * time-of-day (1st, 2nd, 3rd shift) * time-of-week (5x8, 4x10, 6x6) * intangible benefits (think internships to gain experience/skills/networks)

I'm sure there are many more variables that could be added to that list.

The real minimum wage is always 0, for the workers that didn't get hired.
Minimum wage laws are ultimately restrictions an individual's right to enter
into a contract.

~~~
dgzl
> Minimum wage laws are ultimately restrictions an individual's right to enter
> into a contract.

This, 100%. If I have some menial task that doesn't justify paying minimum
wage, and I have a person interested in this contract, then the government's
intervention is violating our rights.

We don't stand a chance bringing the homeless population back into the
workforce with a high minimum wage, it's just not going to happen. People who
support higher minimum wage don't seem to realize that it has negative side
effects, like pushing lower-ranking employees out of the market.

~~~
JauntyHatAngle
The point of a minimum wage is exactly to stop the those desperate for work to
work for less than a living wage. This is due to the thought that allowing
people to be hired for less than a living wage is essentially condemning those
people to work for hours that are not healthy for mind or body in order to
make ends meet.

If a minimum wage is too high, then sure, its a bad thing because companies
can't afford to hire workers for menial tasks which stops workers from
working.

But simultaneously, if it's too low, it leads to dangerous precedents exactly
like you've described - menial tasks being farmed out to people desperate for
any kind of cash, leading to them having to work inordinate number of hours to
make a living wage - this is not a society I want to live in, and having to
work exceedingly large hours due to my job not giving me enough money is also
a "violation" of my human rights - that of a "just and favourable condition of
work".

The trick is of course balancing the minimum wage with it's downsides of being
too high - and there is fair argument that the US has let this slip below
livable wage.

>This, 100%. If I have some menial task that doesn't justify paying minimum
wage, and I have a person interested in this contract, then the government's
intervention is violating our rights.

USA already has a problem with wealth inequality, and in the current system,
removing minimum wage entirely would overall exacerbate this, not help, as now
you're having minimum wage workers compete with no income workers - and the
argument is that - increasingly - minimum wage workers already have trouble
making ends meet. Minimum wage in this context is as much a Violation of
rights as the context you are suggesting - and in my opinion, an odd choice of
words to use in this context.

Edit - Can you explain why I'm being downvoted? I don't think I've broken any
rules here.

~~~
dgzl
> menial tasks being farmed out to people desperate for any kind of cash,
> leading to them having to work inordinate number of hours to make a living
> wage

Your point of view is that people who are willing to work for less are being
exploited, but you fail entirely to see how real legally legitimate paid work
would actually help underprivileged populations obtain success, as opposed to
their current $0/hr wage.

> now you're having minimum wage workers compete with no income workers

You've said it yourself, dropping minimum wage would allow underprivileged
workers the ability to compete for jobs. Maybe minimum-wage workers are scared
that they'll lose their job to someone who's _actually_ desperate for work.

~~~
JauntyHatAngle
No I totally get it, but my belief is that there would be more exploitation
occurring than net benefit gained from being able to hire people and pay them
extremely low wages.

I don't want to return to the days where people would have to work 60+ hours
to keep a roof over their head with bare necessities. We are closer to that
reality than that of wealthy menial workforce in my view.

------
scarface74
Or Google could, you know, just hire the people directly...

~~~
jnaddef
Reading you it looks like Google does not hire anyone.

Google is a tech company, it is perfectly natural for them to have contractors
when it comes to people working in the cafes for example, because training or
interviewing cooks will be done better in a company actually focused on
training and interviewing cooks.

~~~
scarface74
It hasn’t always been that way. Companies use to hire their own janitors and
cooks. If a school system can figure out how to hire teachers, principals,
custodians, electricians, bus drivers, cooks, etc. I’m sure all of the smart
people at Google can.

~~~
DrScump
and cooks

Once upon a time, Google treated such contributors well:

[https://blog.rongarret.info/2011/11/in-defense-of-google-
che...](https://blog.rongarret.info/2011/11/in-defense-of-google-chef.html)

~~~
toomuchtodo
It’s easy for us to lose our way, but requires much effort to find our way
back.

