

Ask HN: Presenting or explaining past illness in a job application - MurkyPast

Hello. Throwaway profile here.<p>What's the best way to present a period of illness in job applications?<p>During my Batchelors degree I was horribly unwell. I was in and out of hospital with some life threatening stuff, and scraped my degree with very poor grades. I worked for a few years, quit to do a Masters degree, did that rather well, and am now applying for jobs again.<p>I like to be upfront about things, but I also don't like scaring people off. In five years or so I can probably leave any mention of grades off my resume, but at this point it would just look suspicious.
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maryrosecook
Your Masters will appear first on your resume, so the recipient will see you
are capable of getting good marks before they see your bad marks for your
undergraduate degree. When you state the marks of the latter, perhaps include
a sentence along the lines of, "I was seriously ill in hospital during this
period, and so got uncharacteristically low marks." Any further explanation
(which should not be necessary) can be left for the interview.

~~~
crpatino
Do not put seriously ill anywhere on your resume.

So what if you got bad grades as an undergraduate? If you did ok on the
masters, everybody will think that you was a lazy guy who's grown up since
then. Also, if your grades where remarkably bad, don't put those in. People
will assume they were average bad, now awful.

On the other hand, if you disclose you have had serious health problems, you
raise a yellow flag. Does not matter if you have no long term sequels, if
there is a suitable candidate with no yellow flag, H.R. is going to take the
safe bet. You will not even get a chance to explain yourself.

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tptacek
Are you looking for a job in technology? They probably don't care about your
grades at all. You may be overthinking this.

~~~
jmatt
I agree. I never put my grades on my resume. It was what I did outside of
school and how I interviewed that mattered.

Don't be ashamed of your illness. Be direct, honest and proud that you got a
degree at all. You presumably came out of the illness stronger and with a
different perspective on life. As someone who also went through illness in the
past - there is something to be said about how such illness affects one's
character. Use that to your advantage if they ask about your bachelor's
degree.

~~~
learner4life
Did you not put grades when you were graduating out of college? My boss
considers it a big no when a recent grad refuses to put grades. I have seen
that grades or even degrees do not matter when you claim experience and
knowledge. But that seems not to be the case where your masters is a big
talking point.

~~~
jmatt
_Did you not put grades when you were graduating out of college?_

I think the top recommendations that were made to me about resumes were be
specific with your accomplishments, don't lie, play to your strengths and
don't have a $%!$ing typo. If you've done anything extraordinary put it on
your resume. For instance I was a student senator and had done a lot of
mountaineering - that was on my resume. Your job is to sell yourself and
standout. So if that means leaving off average or poor grades - that's fine.

Here is my experience coming out of college. My first two jobs were while I
was still in school.

My first "real" programming job was doing research on C# and .NET when it was
still in beta. I attended OOPSLA that year and met the right people at the
right time. Some people from the compilers team offered to keep in contact and
I followed up on that to my benefit. I remember one of the guys from the C#
compiler team was unemployed when he graduated (previous tech bubble). He
wrote a java program to showcase his programming skills and it got him hired
at Microsoft on the C# compilers team. Still the "place to be" when he was
hired.

My second "real" programming job ended up being my own small business that was
momentarily profitable. That was when some friends of mine said I should apply
at a startup that they worked at in town. I applied and was hired. I worked
there part time and eventually I was making more money doing that than running
my business. After I was working full-time they didn't want me to finish my
degree because it was getting in the way of work. The lesson there was as soon
as your bosses know that they have someone that is competent everything
changes.

On paper at the time I don't think there was a chance I would have had anyone
choose my resume from a pile and call me up. Luckily I knew a lot of smart
programmers that actively recruited me. Most hiring managers will contact you
if they have a recommendation and legible resume.

When I interviewed at the startup I was woo'ing them with stories of my small
business success more than they were grilling me. I had recently done research
for the university and Microsoft in C# and since it was such a new platform I
had about as much experience as anyone. When I asked for a salary they offered
me $7k over what I asked for. (Ya that was an epic-fail on my part)

My next job was post startup acquisition (no worries I didn't have equity). My
degree was a minor point because of all I had accomplished at the startup.

I have a number of friends that have really great traditional resumes. They
are now all over the place. If I were looking for a full-time gig I'd start
with them. Probably looking to get in on some contract work. Then from there
investigate getting hired full-time. I think that is current path to most
full-time programming jobs.

------
benmccann
It would not look suspicious to leave grades off your resume. It's uncommon to
place grades on a resume and employers would not blink twice at this
information not being present. I graduated with a 3.8 GPA only a few years ago
and do not put it on my resume.

~~~
MurkyPast
But that's different. If you applied for a job and in the process someone asks
"By the way, what was your GPA?" and you tell them "Oh, 3.8" then it's fine.
If you reply with poor grades, to me it casts things in a bad light as it
looks like you're leaving off damaging information.

Maybe tptacek is right and I'm overthinking things...

~~~
benmccann
It's pretty uncommon to list this info and grades don't matter. I really
wouldn't worry about it much. I've interviewed at plenty of companies and been
an interviewer at a couple of them (I'm doing an interview tomorrow actually)
and never once have I heard anyone ask about grades.

Also, your resume is supposed to cast you in the best possible light. Once you
get the interview no one will look at it. A resume reveals how good candidates
are at self-promotion more than anything, so I skip right over it without even
a glance and ask candidates questions which will reveal if they're bright and
know how to write software.

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sharpn
If you mention it at all, I suggest being bold - under a heading of 'Other
Achievements' include a brief sentence about overcoming the illness -
alongside any sporting success or open source work etc. This frames the
illness as (ultimately) a success, rather than as a weakness. Hope you find
the right job.

~~~
MurkyPast
Thanks. I'll think about that.

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scott_s
You finished your Master's. Your undergrad grades are irrelevant now.

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jleader
It may depend on the sort of jobs you're applying for, and there may be
cultural differences. For the area I'm familiar with, high-tech non-defense
jobs in the US, I'd say leave the old grades off. I've heard that in some
other countries, there may be more emphasis on having followed the "correct"
path.

I'm trying to remember if I've ever seen someone with an advanced degree put
their bachelors GPA on their resume.

If someone asks about your bachelors grades (very unlikely), you've actually
got a great story that proves your ability to achieve your goal (graduate from
college) in the face of outrageous obstacles. I'd say that's a much more
impressive achievement than most recent Masters graduates can point to in
their undergraduate record!

------
patio11
People who have done things do not need to cite grades on resumes, at all.
They are a proxy for future doings among those who have not yet done.

------
amorphid
Your illness doesn't matter. Telling an employer cannot help you. You only
need to convince someone you are the best person moving forward. Easiest way
to avoid bringing the question is to leave GPA off resume. No employe should
ask about health. If they ask about GPA, just tell them you had to balance
abnormally tough family issues that are resolved and no longer a factor.

------
joecode
A resume should play to your strengths, and not get too personal. If your
grades were bad then, leave them off, but show how awesome you are anyway. If
they ask at an interview, just be completely upfront about it. Say they were
good in grad school, but bad in undergrad because you were sick.

------
todayiamme
You know what the funny thing is? If you are up front about the fact that you
have an illness it can be in fact beneficial for you. Down the line if your
cancer ever resurfaces (I hope not) and you lose your job due to some
insurance giant. Then that will be a bad place to be in.

So, on the other hand through disclosure (in the interview perhaps?) you can
test the company's policy pre-emptively without going through significant pain
during that time. It will be harder finding a job, but when you do find one it
ought to be worth it.

However, this is a really dangerous line to walk and I really think that you
need to move to a country in the EU. Over there, you will be protected in the
work force and thanks to the health system things have a better chance of
working out...

~~~
MurkyPast
Many of the jobs I will be applying for are in Europe, and as an EU citizen
the insurance isn't an issue. But I am also applying to several in the US, so
this is all quite helpful.

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AmberShah
Do not mention your grades on your resume. About half the people won't even
ask or care. The ones that do will ask and that is the time to explain what
you got and why it was low.

When I was graduating they told us that if you got above 2.5 put it on there,
below don't put it on there. Now that I've been out awhile I think that's
probably a decent rule of thumb. Personally I don't put it on there even
though I did fairly well.

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takrupp
It depends on whether you are going through a recruiter or not. A recruiter
can broach that topic a little more gently than speaking with your prospective
employer. If that's not a possibility, leave the GPA off there and put a
bullet with "medical leave: XXXX - XXXX". Your employer will ask, talk about
it frankly at that time.

~~~
MurkyPast
Maybe I've just had bad luck, but in my experience recruiters have proved to
be a layer of unwelcome misinformation.

~~~
takrupp
Depends on the recruiter and industry. Its pretty easy to figure out the
jokers from the professionals (simply by asking "Who is the hiring manager?"
will a lot of times show you who is who). No doubt the big firms are typically
loaded with jokers.

------
desigooner
doubt anybody really cares .. for all the places i've interviewed, nobody has
really touched upon the gpa .. at entry level positions, HR uses a GPA
threshold in job postings but I guess that too is just a formality.

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mseebach
You question is missing a very important piece of information: What makes you
think that past illness is something that'll scare off employers? In other
words, what happened, and how did that affect you?

~~~
MurkyPast
Cancer, basically.

~~~
mseebach
OK, that's hardly controversial. Why not just put it in there? Why would
anyone think "he had cancer, he's unreliable"?

Why do you seems to think that makes your past murky? I mean, I don't envy
you, it's a horrible disease, but it doesn't make your past murky.

~~~
azim
Do NOT mention cancer to any potential employer unless you have to. Cancer
doesn't just "go away". Any survivor will be on drugs for years and the threat
of relapse is always there. In the eyes of anyone who is providing you with
health insurance, it immediately makes you a liability.

~~~
mseebach
No health insurance will cover anything for anyone who entered the scheme not
disclosing a past treatment for cancer. Health insurance concerns do not go
away (quite the opposite) by not disclosing cancer.

~~~
nostrademons
Disclose it when they ask for past medical history, then, not at a job
interview. At that point, they've already hired you, and this becomes an
annoying health insurance hassle and not a reason to not hire you. Why stack
the deck against yourself?

------
Mz
I would suggest you do your best to just gloss over it without lying. I spent
a LOT of time very ill. I was too ill to work right after getting my
Certificate in GIS. My resume had a 50% call back rate but I was doped to the
gills on prescription medication and tanked in every interview. During that
time, I was very upfront about my medical crisis. I didn't get a single job
offer. I can't prove that was why, but I can't help but suspect it either. The
first interview I went to where I did not mention my medical situation got me
a job. I just told them I was a former homemaker going through a divorce and
did not elaborate on any additional details concerning my lack of prior work
experience.

Since you have a Masters, it is more recent and will generally be weighted
more in their mind. Lots of folks screw off during college when they first
leave home and don't make the best grades. I would be inclined to offer no
explanation whatsoever for the poor grades the first time around. If your
performance later was better, let that speak for itself -- unless, of course,
you are asked point blank. Then be honest.

I think mentioning your medical problem up front is problematic because it
implies that it is still a concern. If it is in your past, then leave it
there. Honestly admitting to a medical crisis in an interview if asked about
the grades seems to me less likely to be problematic. Just answer honestly but
minimally. Talking at length about it suggests it still weighs heavily on your
mind and I think this implies that it could still interfere with your ability
to work. If that is not true, then don't give it a lot of emphasis. LOTS of
people have medical conditions. It generally doesn't merit mentioning on the
resume.

Good luck with this.

