
Breaking a WoW addiction - dreeves
http://www.pixelpoppers.com/2010/12/doing-my-dailies-why-i-quit-wow-and.html
======
xal
It seems to be stated as a fact in this discussion that you can't play a game
such as WoW and do anything other productive on the side, but it's a lot more
nuanced.

Anecdotally, I've been playing WoW almost non stop since it launched and have
been raiding once to three times a week. During this time I also got married,
had a kid, founded Shopify, overtook the CEO role, grew it to be a multi
million dollar business. In this community that seems far from being a
failure.

I'm engaging in anecdotal junk science here but my theory is that the people
who really loose themselves in games like WoW are people with very poor time
management skills. I'm convinced those people have always been around before.
However, previously almost all activities came with some inherent caps on the
time you can productively spend on those. All sports wear you out and force
you to stop after some time. TV repeats pretty quickly and there is no
original content during the night. Reading works but that's a socially fully
acceptable timesink.

WoW is just extremely good game that fulfills a lot Maslow's needs, especially
the top ones. There is a great asymmetry in the lure of this game and the
established defenses of some people.

I think one of the key parts of parenting for our generation will be to equipt
our children with the time management skills and the willpower to handle and
enjoy games like WoW properly.

~~~
ced
_I think one of the key parts of parenting for our generation will be to
equipt our children with [...] the willpower to handle and enjoy games like
WoW properly._

How do you do that?

~~~
xal
I don't have the answer to it yet. However, it will likely involve exposing
them to WoW or it's equivalent and then showing them how more long term sound
activities can be even more rewarding.

------
ramanujan
What WoW needs to do is start hooking in-game rewards to real-life rewards.

For example, a deal with 24 Hour Fitness where you need to attend for 30 days
in a row to unlock some kind of sword. The biometric system at 24 Hour is now
sophisticated enough to permit this kind of tracking [with your permission of
course].

I'm completely serious. This is an inversion of the Zynga model in which real
life money is exchanged for worthless virtual goods. It's more like worthless
virtual goods are dangled as an incentive for real life improvement.

There's a lot further you can go with this concept (hooking it up to location
based apps, for example), but if we're talking about a "game layer on the
world", start with converting an unhealthy dependency into a healthy one.

~~~
BrandonM
I love the idea, but why does WoW need to do this? Any game could do it. A
fitness club is especially well-placed to accomplish it.

Hmm... I think it could also work well as a Facebook app.

I'm going to mull this over and see what I can come up with. This could really
drive society to improve itself in all kinds of ways.

~~~
javanix
I think people's participation would be much higher in such a program if the
rewards were linked to an existing platform.

People have been trying to game-ify real life for years and its never gained
much traction. I think this is because people have to sign up for something
additional, and at that point (unless the program gains a lot of steam with a
lot of people) there's not much tying individuals in.

~~~
BrandonM
Right, but that platform could just be "social bragging" through Facebook,
other websites, and other methods entirely. It's as simple as showing off to
your friends the cool things you're learning while encouraging them to do the
same. Meanwhile, those same friends are able to observe the changes to you on
a personal basis. It's inherently social and viral; I don't think it really
_needs_ to leverage an existing platform at all.

------
forensic
Caveat: it's very easy to extend the criticism of WoW to life itself.

Working all these years to be a paramedic, going to school, going to work, for
what? To drive some people to the hospital? They're all just going to die
anyway. Life is meaningless!

What the author is really saying is: "I find more meaning in the real world
than in WoW."

But this isn't necessarily true for everyone.

Having said all that, I think WOW is more dangerous than heroin.

~~~
JanezStupar
There is a substantial difference between improving your physical life and
your Avatar.

The illusion of success is there and almost tangible - if you didn't have to
"wake up" to your neglected real body and nonexistent/handicapped real life.

And most people I know don't play WOW due to nihilism or at least not
initially. They play it just for opposite reasons - it makes it easier for
them to achieve _something_.

Disclaimer: I have played UO and got severely addicted by it. I also played
WOW and EVE, I'm very competitive but in the end I figured that to reach the
level of performance I wanted to - It would take me 8+ hours (rather 12+) of
work a day. So I just quit the damn thing and focused on building my real
person - no regrets. I saw WOW at a friend some months ago - and I instantly
felt sick, the sounds, the animations... It just made me want to throw up.

~~~
scotty79
If you are leveling in real life sometimes you wake up and see emptiness of
this all. Sure, what you achieved in life provides comfort for your body but
body is relatively easy to comfort if mind is happy.

If you are playing game all the time there is not much time you have to be
"awake" and you may even never be fully "awake" to notice and appreciate your
handicapped life.

People can have handicapped life even when they don't play games. They just
stay for years in the same place despite their apparent efforts.

~~~
JanezStupar
Indeed - human mind is capable of creating many elaborate delusions.

Nihilism being the worst of them all. One has to recognize that indeed, there
are no supreme values, that there is no guaranteed path to _salvation_. And
that in spite of this terrible truth one must form his own set of values that
guide him on a journey that doesn't really lead anywhere specific, but one
must travel the journey else he becomes damned.

~~~
scotty79
Why not just accept that is pointless after becoming aware of it but just stay
for the ride?

~~~
JanezStupar
Do you think that Paris Hilton is happy? Do you think that the OP's guild
leader is happy?

Man is a creature of creation, to be happy Man has to improve upon himself and
the world, to create by definition one needs to have some values. Else we just
become decadent and decadence does not breed happiness.

~~~
forensic
People in wow ARE creating. That's what makes it so addictive.

They are re-arranging the materials of the game to create something they
desire.

This is the same procedure people use in real life - we rearrange matter and
energy to create conditions we desire.

There is nothing inherently more meaningful in reality compared to fiction.
All of these things are exactly as meaningful as individuals find them to be.

Some people value wow for itself and there is nothing wrong or incorrect about
this. Does it scare you to recognize that there is no logical basis for
action?

The basis is emotional. Meaning itself is a word we use to refer to that
emotional experience that occurs when we begin to care about life. Some people
find it in collecting stamps, some people find it in wow, some people find it
in medicine, some find it in the game of being a corporate executive.

None is logically or inherently more meaningful than another. It all comes
down to irrational human values.

~~~
JanezStupar
I played wow - so I know pretty well whats going on there - at least in the
game circa 2005/2006, before the additions of casual content.

Road to 60 was actually pretty fun - but once you hit 60 - thats when it
really begins. If you want to mean something, you have to raid almost every
single day for 4-6 hours - else you don't get a guild and there are no casual
raiding guilds since content is so hard that you need to be well versed to get
it done.

I'm well aware that one is playing wow because it makes sense emotionally not
rationally - but there is difference between "positive emotional action" and
"negative emotional action" (meaning, repetition - grind, peer pressure, job
like schedules,...).

So I would argue that no, people in WOW are not creating, they are destroying
the very fabric that creates society.

------
merijnv
As someone who has played and stopped WoW for significant times over the past
years. I think the article has some valid points about the addictiveness of
WoW, on the other hand I feel that the choice between "real" work and WoW as
presented here is a false dichotomy. "Real" work and WoW are not mutually
exclusive.

The writer says he started playing he has spend his time working out. I
started swimming for 40 minutes each day while playing WoW, a habit I continue
now that I stopped.

He also states what if you spend the time you invest in WoW into achieving
your goals. But you can't just work 24/7. I spend 8 hours a day doing research
and hacking at the university, when I get home I just don't have the focus
left in me to code or study. In the past I spend this time playing WoW, right
now I spend this time reading fiction or hanging in front of the TV.

Now probably there are people who lose themselves entirely to the game and
can't bring up the discipline to also work on their goals, but as everything
in life, its really just about balancing yourself.

PS - I actually found myself being more productive during my WoW playing times
then during my non-playing times. Reason? If I needed to do something I would
not allow myself to log in until it was done. WoW was more addictive then
procrastinating so I'd just knuckle down and do it. Now if I need to do
something I find myself reading HN instead of just doing it...

~~~
forensic
>I started swimming for 40 minutes each day while playing WoW

Waterproof laptop?

~~~
merijnv
I hadn't even noticed that ambiguity. I blame fever headache + English as a
secondary language. Anyway, that cheered me up despite the headache :)

------
bretpiatt
Is playing a social game where you interact with other people any different
than going out to a club or bar? Joining a bowling league? A cycling group? A
health club where you go to regular group exercise classes?

The meme that video games are inherently evil needs to go away. Why is it
socially acceptable to join many clubs and spend time with those people all
the time but not "people on the Internet"? Like the Internet is somewhere only
people that can't make "real friends" go..

Addiction to anything is bad but playing WoW or any other online game doesn't
mean you're automatically "a loser" in the rest of your life -- and I don't
mean just casually playing. There are people in all of the top guilds
achieving high ranked world kills on new content that are also successful in
other areas of their life.

~~~
dreeves
In principle, sure, but the point is that WoW is indeed especially addictive
in a way that a bowling league isn't.

~~~
roel_v
What, the same social pressures don't apply in other team sports? Try to play
any sport at a high level and miss a few trainings because you'd rather read a
book at home. You'll get bad looks the first time, yelled at the second time
and kicked out the third time.

(I'm not saying WoW is a sport, just to pre-empt a diversion in that
direction).

What is morally superior about exercising an hour a day over playing WoW an
hour a day, provided the lack of exercise doesn't make one dangerously obese
or similar? Yet all rants like this one are based on that premise - 'I used to
be such a loser, now I work out, I'm so much better than those WoW losers'.
Usually from former players, too; just like former smokers are the most
obnoxious about how awesome they are for quitting, the former WoW players seem
to know something about self-righteousness, too.

Anyway, like anything, it's about moderation. If you play a couple of hours a
week and don't let it take over your life, there's nothing wrong with it. I
asked my girlfriend to set up the 'parental control' feature on my account, so
I only got to play 4 hours a week. If anything, WoW at least lets you do that;
I have yet to see the first skateboard or piano that has a lock like that, and
there are many people who 'waste' (in the article's definition, not mine) much
more than 4 hours a week on those.

~~~
dreeves
I didn't realize that about using the "parental" control. Great example of a
commitment device! And that's what I really mean about the difference between
WoW and most other hobbies and social activities: WoW sucks you in in a way
that makes you regret the amount of time you spend on it. I sometimes have the
same problem with Hacker News, hence this: <http://beeminder.com/d/hn>

~~~
dy
This is brilliant. I think people here can rail against addictions to WoW
while lurking/posting on HN for hours a day. It's all part of the same
addiction for points/prestige/social validation.

"Posting all these years to get higher karma, reading the source articles,
reading the comments, for what? To help another person who thinks they have an
innovative startup idea? They're all just going to get bought by Google
anyway. Life is meaningless!

------
awt
Here's my perspective as the friend of someone who became addicted to WoW:

I lost a potential programming buddy/co-founder. we used to collaborate on
projects, but eventually WoW took up all his spare time. We both graduated
with CS degrees, but he is now unemployable. He played WoW instead of working
(he worked from home), and has never spent any time outside of work
maintaining his skills. I say worked because he no longer works. Hasn't for
the past 3 years. Right now he's into starcraft. It's frustrating to me that
he and others I built relationships with in college have chosen this path.

~~~
henrikschroder
What enables him? Why can he keep playing and not have to worry about paying
rent or having enough money for food?

I play quite a lot of videogames, and I play wow, but I'm a grown-up, I have a
job, I have a home, I buy my own food, I pay my mortgage, and if I fail at my
job, I'll starve and lose my home and my ability to play videogames. Why
hasn't your friend come to the same realization?

~~~
scotty79
You picked home ownership and you pick food according to your income. If you
fail at your job you will starve and loose your home because you entangled
your burdens with your paycheck.

Perhaps his friend choses food and roof far cheaper then he could afford in
order to have more time to spend freely not on paying for those.

~~~
awt
His wife supports him.

~~~
scotty79
Then last sentence of my comment does not apply to him. Just me. :-)

------
Luyt
I play WoW for five years now. When I started, I used to be an occasional
player. But when I hit level 60 (that was the highest level a few years ago)
it was impossible to advance further without being in a regular raiding guild.
So I started hardcoring: obligatory raids from 19:00 to 23:30, each evening,
five evenings per week. Lower attendance was not tolerated. And
gathering/grinding materials for potions/powerups afterwards, util 01:00 or
so. This took place in a few months around the summer of 2006. The reward was
worth it: access to all high-level content, epic items, and being member of
the most succesful guild on the server. However, after a few months hardcoring
like this, the game felt more and more like a boring job. One day I realized
that with this playing style, I would quickly lose all interest in this game,
which I didn't want, so I quit the guild (only hardcorers were allowed to stay
in) and changed to a casual player, which I still am today.

I didn't want to quit altogether because there was so much more game content
to check out (I enjoy the sights & sounds of WoW very much), and so many other
classes to try. Up until then I played exclusively Holy Priest.

Blizzard must have somehow realized that players weren't able to get any
further without hardcoring. The last years they have created more and more
features for the casual player: the Dungeon Finder system, player-vs-player
battlegrounds, cross-realm instances, other reward systems; all these have
lessened the dependence on a guild.

I now sometimes fire up WoW, not everyday, and play a few hours. I still like
it, after all these years (and 3 expansion packs).

~~~
silencio
I don't know how casual you are or how long it's been since you last played,
but Blizzard flipped everything around for casual players not in a guild with
Cataclysm. Those features you name are still there, but now they're next to
rated BGs, guild achievements, and more features you can only really get while
playing with a group of other players, i.e. a guild. Even basic non-raiding
perks like 15 minute hearth and increased xp/rep gains are tied to guilds now.

I had an alt that wasn't in a guild or cared to raid that just recently joined
the <reddit> guild because I really wanted those perks while being in a guild
that didn't demand anything of me. I only raid a very strict max 3 hours 3
weekdays a week on my main toon in another guild and I refuse to tie myself
down with raiding on a second one, and <reddit> is perfect for that...people
are always online to play with, raids are always going on if I ever want to
check them out, but I'm free to stay in the guild with zero commitment towards
any time sink and I can solo all the content I want. You might want to check
out joining a similarly large and open social guild for yours.

~~~
Luyt
Ah, I've always stayed in friendly/social guilds, just not the hardcore guilds
anymore ;-)

------
DanielBMarkham
Game makers (and some website owners) are discovering what some religious and
cult leaders have known for thousands of years: you don't have to give
somebody a drug to make them an addict. People are perfectly capable of
generating their own addictions without external chemical help.

I _think_ what's going to happen is that we come up with a new moral code --
much like the thing where drinking before a certain time was considered bad,
or the idea of doctors prescribing pain pills for themselves anathema.

But really, it beats me. We have a generation of people addicted to a
sedentary activity in a way that's never happened in human history. It's very
difficult to predict how all this will play out.

~~~
kbutler
> We have a generation of people addicted to a sedentary activity in a way
> that's never happened in human history.

Heh. Heard of this other addictive sedentary activity that people call "TV"?

[http://blog.nielsen.com/nielsenwire/online_mobile/americans-...](http://blog.nielsen.com/nielsenwire/online_mobile/americans-
watching-more-tv-than-ever/)

The _average_ America watches 153 hours of video per month (2009). 5.5 hours
per day on average.

Looking up TV addiction yields many very similar articles.

I expect that some people are more susceptible to gaming than TV, and others
the opposite.

But the results from TV seem very comparable to gaming: some is probably fine,
maybe even beneficial depending on your choices. Too much is bad for your
physical, mental, and social well-being.

kb

------
slyn
eeeeehhh. As a very avid WoW player of some years now, I would say WoW is
something that can easily be something that holds your "life progress" or
whatever you want to call it back, but it can also just as easily be played at
a successful level (define that however you like) without that effect as well.

In the guild I'm in now and a guild I was in in the past I see both: players
who are quite literally on welfare or unemployment and just play WoW and other
games all day (colloquially "living the dream", mostly tongue-in-cheek), while
others have what I would consider successful lives. One of our best priests
works as some sort of company programmer or server maintainer/admin. Our best
healing druid entered his first bodybuilding contest sometime in September of
this year and plans on doing another next August iirc. Our guild/raid leader
has an office 9-5 selling toys to retailers or something like that. Lots are
in college, myself included. An old guild officer of mine was a Googler. A
decent amount have wives/kids/gfs/main squeezes. etc.

I think the best argument of the post is the social obligations point. There
are definitely some people who do "no-life" for the guild and such, but again,
I think this is a some do some don't thing (as well as being limited to
basically people in guild leadership situations). For every guild leader or
officer I know who hasn't left a dead-end guild because of a feeling of
obligations to the guild, I probably know twice as many officers who did left
anyways, and 3-4x as many raiders who did as well. Anecdotally speaking, I
left a guild where I was probably next in line to be guild/raid lead for a
much better one, and am now debating doing some sort of ESL teach/travel
program next year despite having been an officer in my new guild for roughly 6
months now.

~~~
semipermeable
You discuss how WoW either hold back life progress or doesn't. Have you (or
anyone you know) encountered a case where WoW has helped someone?

~~~
slyn
Depends on what you define "helped" as.

I don't know anyone personally who has say, gotten a job or learned a new
tangible life skill from playing.

I can say for myself at least that I have met a lot of people who I would call
friends without hesitation, most of whom I would love to meet up with in real
life someday. It has also made it easier for me to connect with RL friends as
well. Half the reason I started playing was so I would have a way to play with
some longtime RL friends while they were living at U of I in champaign and
urbana.

Intangibly I feel like I have learned a lot about how to communicate with
people, particularly from a leadership position. Since communication over text
or in ventrilo doesn't have all the physical queues of face to face
interaction, you learn to speak with more clarity and precision as time goes
on. I feel like it would be pretty easy to be a successful manager of some
non-technical sector of work like retail based solely on what I've learned
from being an officer in WoW now as well as being an officer in Runescape back
when I was like 13-14.

Edit: PS. I forgot a big intangible: I've had a lot of fun playing over the
past couple years.

~~~
rsheridan6
>I can say for myself at least that I have met a lot of people who I would
call friends without hesitation, most of whom I would love to meet up with in
real life someday.

It seems like it would be a good thing if guilds could be set up based on the
geographic location of the players. If you had a reasonable chance of making
"real life" friends, a lot of the objections to MMOs that aren't made to, say,
a ski club or a bowling league, would go away.

~~~
silencio
I disagree. I think a lot of people that play with others geographically close
to each other already know each other in some way and the reverse would not
necessarily be the same. I mostly play with two "real life" friends, and most
of the groupings of people I know in my guilds are couples, friends from
college/home, coworkers, and similar. It's usually not "oh we know each other
after we found out in-game that we're geographically close".

For every interesting person I have met in WoW, I've come across someone I
can't even begin to describe...social misfit, awkward, creepy, misogynist,
immature, stalker doesn't even begin to cover it. Whenever I find a random
group of people to raid with, I am afraid to talk in vent/mumble because I
don't want to give away the fact that my voice gives me away as being a very,
very valley girl/California English spoken woman. The few times I slip and
talk, some players didn't care but others split off into various assumptions,
usually along the lines of my being incompetent by being female or "no way,
she's a girl! (I'm going to harass her in whispers now!)". The few that didn't
care and judged me based on my actual performance were the ones I ended up
really appreciating being grouped with and that in turn were the ones that
outright told me that they were sad to see me go before I changed servers a
couple months ago. The ones that assumed I was dumb, well, I had an ignore
list longer than my arm by the time I moved away. Moved away to a guild where
I vetted the GM and his guild for his female-friendliness and zero tolerance
to harassment first above all other concerns, including raiding. (And for what
it's worth, I left my very first WoW guild because I couldn't stand even the
smallest playful insults anymore. Starting with "you sure do get around" for
getting an achievement for exploring a zone.)

So in an environment like that, I really hope that such a thing is never,
ever, ever possible in-game and is something people do waaaaay far out of game
on their own accord. Blizzard really scared a lot of people with their initial
implementation of RealID and still kinda do despite all the privacy settings,
and I would cancel my WoW account the day Blizzard ever considers putting in
some kind of interface for geographical guild finding no matter how opt-out it
is. I want to choose which basis I use to find friends in this game and I
never want Blizzard to help me with that. I especially never _ever_ want some
dumbass 15 year old punk that hits on me to find out I live in Los Angeles,
let alone what my real name is.

(And really, I'm sick of the people that think that WoW can't be real life. I
have come across some of my best friends online, and WoW is no different from
IRC or AIM or email or any means of online communications. It is as real life
as it gets without being face-to-face with someone. Some people just don't
learn to manage their in-game time very well and that is the fodder for all
those horror stories, not the vast majority of people that do know how to stop
playing a game.)

~~~
rsheridan6
>I mostly play with two "real life" friends, and most of the groupings of
people I know in my guilds are couples, friends from college/home, coworkers,
and similar. It's usually not "oh we know each other after we found out in-
game that we're geographically close".

Yeah, but that's partly because when you meet a random person online, odds are
that they don't live near you because any two random internet denizens aren't
likely to live near each other. The point of geolocation would be that you
could feasibly meet if you wanted to.

I don't see what the problem would be with opt-outable geolocation. You could
set your location to private, or don't enter it at all, and join a
guild/clan/whatever that isn't local to a specific area.

A game or a guild that geolocated should also be harder on creeps, banning
people who were creepy and not letting in 15 year olds in the first place if
that's not who they wanted. It would be more like a real life social group. If
you don't want to hang around with someone in real life, you don't, and if
you're not in high school yourself, you probably don't socialize with 15 year
old boys who aren't related to you. I understand your concerns but I think
there are solutions to them, and there will always be alternatives for those
who want to keep it strictly anonymous and online.

>And really, I'm sick of the people that think that WoW can't be real life. I
have come across some of my best friends online, and WoW is no different from
IRC or AIM or email or any means of online communications. It is as real life
as it gets without being face-to-face with someone.

But there are still some things you're missing without face to face. And
having a social life centered around electronic communication with people you
don't know in real life is almost as stigmatized as WoW addiction anyway.

------
ThomPete
The problem for me with games like WoW, EQ and so on is that they aren't based
enough on skills so to compensate you need to spend a lot of time in the game.

To contrast. In a game like Quake you are only as good as your Rail-gun aim
it's pure skills. Or StarCraft for that matter again skills based.

The advantages from these kind of games in combatting addiction is that they
are hard to become good at. you can't just get powerleveled up the latter.

The skills stays with you, the same is not true in WoW.

Having seen a couple of friends dropping out of university for a year because
of games like EverQuest and WoW my advice is:

Don't play games where it's the avatar that gains power. Only play games that
makes you a better player.

~~~
alexdias
I think you're mainly viewing WoW from the PvE (player-vs-environment)
perspective. In PvP (player-vs-player), there is a system much like the one
present in Starcraft II (except that there are no leagues, only ratings).

 _In a game like Quake you are only as good as your Rail-gun aim it's pure
skills._

If you spend years playing Quake/Starcraft, you will be good at it.

 _The advantages from these kind of games in combatting addiction is that they
are hard to become good at_

I don't see how that combats addiction. I played competitive Counter-Strike
Source for some time, and the main thing that kept me going was just that
feeling of competition, and wanting to become better.

WoW's addiction factor is different. It's more like "if I don't do X on day Y,
I get behind other people" where in games like Quake/Starcraft, that just
doesn't exist.

------
amh
I know a guy who's really, really into football. Watches hours of games every
other night or so, has a "fantasy" team that he's constantly fretting over and
checking online stats for, etc.

As far as I can tell, the only thing that distinguishes this obsession from a
WoW habit is that more people like to watch football, so it's accepted.

People who get seriously addicted to WoW are usually either looking for any
escape from reality, or they have the type of personality which tends to get
addicted to _something_ , whether it's online games, math puzzles, tracking
railroad schedules, or whatever. There's no question that these people might
act in unhealthy ways, but WoW is the symptom of their problems, not the
cause.

(disclosure: I used to play WoW regularly)

~~~
astrofinch
>People who get seriously addicted to WoW are usually either looking for any
escape from reality, or they have the type of personality which tends to get
addicted to something, whether it's online games, math puzzles, tracking
railroad schedules, or whatever. There's no question that these people might
act in unhealthy ways, but WoW is the symptom of their problems, not the
cause.

Do you agree that more people get addicted to playing WoW than tracking
railroad schedules? If so, what are some of your hypotheses for what is
causing this discrepancy?

:-P

------
Sharanga
How do you avoid this trap? How do you prevent [subject] from hooking you into
a shadow of what you really want? The answer is simple: don't [do it] blindly.
Consider what it is you get out of [subject] . Nearly everything the [subject]
provides can be found better and more real elsewhere.

Fattening foods? Alcohol abuse? Sex Addiction? oh, WoW.

This is written with the assumption that the reader cannot think for
themselves and is quite insulting to anyone that reads past half of these
subjective assertions.

"at the same time there was something disquieting about the fact that all
these people were still around"

Sorry your friends didn't die, change all of their habits entirely, or live up
to your random expectations of what constitutes too much and too little
involvement in a computer game.

Seriously though, its been out how many years, and using plenty of comics and
quotations to express this point, its taken you 18 months to regurgitate this
same tired public service announcement? This is just trolling literate people
that have thought about playing games in the last decade!

------
dfischer
Meh, quit gaming a while back but recently want to try it out again but more
just to cool off as a "hobby."

I used to think games were evil and against productivity but no longer. I work
a lot. I just want to chill out and relax some times and blow shit up. Maybe
do a raid or two, so what?

It's no different then spending 3 hours watching a TV show on Netflix or
something similar.

It just depends on how you want to spend your time. If it makes you happy,
sure.

I think you need a real job before you can consider gaming a hobby though.
Otherwise it can lead to a "full time life gig."

Girlfriend will also help make sure you're not wasting your time.

I'm lucky if I can squeeze out 8 hours a week on games. If that. There's
weekends though that I have the whole day to myself and I prefer to play a
game for a few hours than go to a club and get drunk.

------
dreeves
Related is Paul Graham's essay on the acceleration of addictiveness:
<http://www.paulgraham.com/addiction.html>

(And to add a shameless plug, my own article on akrasia:
<http://messymatters.com/akrasia> )

------
somethingdotcom
I just wanted to add my 2 cents relating to gaming addiction. I've never
played WoW so I can't comment on that. But I was kicked out of college
indirectly due to my addiction to Counter Strike.

I dunno if the same is true for WoW but one of the reasons I believe Counter
Strike is so addictive is the time you have to wait after you get killed,
before the next round starts.

I believe this is due to the fact that variable reinforcement schedules are
more resistant to extinction:

"Skinner also looked at variable schedules. Variable ratio means you change
the “x” each time -- first it takes 3 presses to get a goodie, then 10, then
1, then 7 and so on. Variable interval means you keep changing the time period
-- first 20 seconds, then 5, then 35, then 10 and so on.

In both cases, it keeps the rats on their rat toes. With the variable interval
schedule, they no longer “pace” themselves, because they can no longer
establish a “rhythm” between behavior and reward. Most importantly, these
schedules are very resistant to extinction. It makes sense, if you think about
it. If you haven’t gotten a reinforcer for a while, well, it could just be
that you are at a particularly “bad” ratio or interval! Just one more bar
press, maybe this’ll be the one!"

Counter Strike is a variable interval schedule. Once you die you have to wait
an unknown amount of time before you can play again. This makes counter strike
playing behavior more resistant to extinction and I believe one of the big
reasons why people get so addicted to it. If you respawned the second you died
in Counter Strike (as you do in deathmatch) I'm fairly positive there would be
a much fewer number of people addicted to the game. I believe this is quite a
big factor in addiction. I haven't heard of anyone addicted to any FPS
deathmatch multiplayer game. I'm sure there are some, but much less so than
games like counter strike where you have to wait.

------
brianwillis
>Although WoW is a much better game than Farmville, with a substantially
different business model, their tactics are fundamentally the same: use your
social obligations to keep you clicking. Exploit your friendships, sense of
reciprocity, and the joy of being part of a group with shared goals. Turn it
all from something commendable to something frivolous that serves mainly to
increase the game developer's profits.

This put into words something I've been thinking about for a while, but
struggled to articulate. There's something wrong when we start doing this to
friendships.

------
drndown2007
Fantasic write up. I don't know if anyone has seen "Percy Jackson and the
Olympians: The Lightning Thief" (pretty good - I enjoyed it), but there is a
part where the heroes enter a casino. Everything you could wish for was there
and so nobody left. And it was a trap -- it's sole reason was to entrap people
so they never did anything with their lives. Your description made me think of
WoW in that way. I'm sure WoW's intentions aren't evil (they just want your
money!) but the outcome is the same.

------
Void_
Short version:

"No one can serve two masters. Either he will hate the one and love the other,
or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other."

Long version:

Compared to other kinds of entertainment (books, TV, sports, friends) -- World
of Warcraft makes you think about it even when you don't play it. The longer
you play the game, the more addicted you are, the more you think about all the
things you're gonna do. That's how the game's designed.

You think about the game when you're not playing it. It's hard to really focus
on something else if you're thinking about the game.

Does that sound familiar to you? If you're a hacker, if you are excited about
computers, then it must. It's same with hacking and programming. It's the same
principle. For example I tried a little Node.js magic the other night and the
first thing I did in the morning was getting live comments to work. Then I
found out there could be another cool feature, and so on. Excitement. That's
what drives hackers. Call it addiction, whatever. Unlike, WoW, you're doing
work, you're making money.

So please, don't be ever excited about WoW. You don't wanna waste your
precious excitement thanks to which you make wonders with programming on WoW.

You can do both, but you can't be addicted to both. Which one will you choose?

------
stuaxo
Exactly why I don't play these, also why I don't try crack or heroin.

~~~
VB6_Forever
I haven't tried crack or heroin either but I wonder if they're more addictive
than alcohol or tobacco or anything else that gives instant gratification. I
tend to lean toward the addictive personality viewpoint. For instance I know
people who can open a bar of chocolate and eat just a square or two. If I open
a bar it's all gone

~~~
michael_dorfman
Yes, but do you know people who can smoke crack a few times, and then forget
it? Or take heroin a few times?

Yes, some personalities are more prone to addiction than others. But it's also
true that some substances that give instant gratification are more addictive
than others.

~~~
rsheridan6
Yes, there are people who can smoke crack or take heroin a few times and
forget it. Or play WoW for that matter. It depends on your personality.

------
cletus
I'll add my perspective to this as someone who was addicted to a similar game.

I started playing Everquest (EQ) soon after launch in 1999 and leveled pretty
quickly hitting the max level cap at the time (50) not long before the first
expansion came out. At the time played wi an American guild (I'm Australian)
and the time difference stopped me doing things with them most of them time
since I had a 9-5 job. My server split and I went with them. The new server
was fairly desolate and I ended up getting booted from lack of participation.
That, combined with how my class had been screwed by the expansion, caused me
to quit.

But I ended up selling my stuff on eBay for ~$3500 so it wasn't all bad. But
the story doesn't end there.

Atually anoeth factor was that I was moving to the UK for work. That first
year the was one of the most productive of my life. I had no Internet access
at home (2001), no TV and a fairly active social life. Due to living in a
cheap area of London, renting a flat and subletting the rooms and the low rate
of effective taxation of contractors I SAVED in excess of $100,000 that year.

After some drama with flatmates (subletting was financially beneficial but a
hassle) I moved closer to work. Suddenlyinsread of an our commute each way I
had a 5 minute walk. I got cable Internet and bought a PC and a TV.

I started playing EQ again. New server, new class, starting from scratch. I
leveled quickly and went through a series of guilds. Raiding can be a huge
timesink. This period was the most fun I had in an MMORPG ever.

Later that year I got laid off as in the aftermath of the telco bubble
bursting the previous year (it was 2002 by now).

I'd always wanted to learn a foreign language soi moved to Germany and
enrolled in intensive learning classes.

But I still kept up with EQ. I transferred servers to a high end guild. The
guild was American so I ended up sleeping from 7pm to 1am, playing EQ from 1am
to 8am, going to classes til 1pm and then playing til 6pm. I never really
adjusted to sleeping at these times.

But I did go to classes. After they ended I stayed and was playing up to 16
hours a day. In the end I got kicked from the guild for doing something I
shouldn't have, which was probably the best thing that could've happened.

Still I view that time now as a wasted opportunity. I did learn the language
but not as well as I could have and I certainly take full advantage socially
or even to see and do things there.

But not before I'd gone back to my old company (they were hiring again) and my
weird schedule had brought me into conflict with a toxic project manager,
ending that job only a month after it had started.

2002-03 was a pretty terrible time in the UK contractor market (39%
unemployment amongst those who hadn't left the industry). It took months to
find a new job. I'd also lost that "social" outlet of EQ so was pretty cut
off. It was actually a fairly dark period for me.

I have played MMOGs since then but never to the same intensity and, frankly, I
think the magic was gone. I'd seen it all before. Even now I think all these
games are fairly formulaic with the same basic mechanics and psychological
devices (compulsion loops, etc).

What I learnt about myself is that I'm fairly singleminded. This can be used
advantageously as I'll dwel on a problem at work until I solve it. But if I
have an unresolved issue personally it can, in a way, consume me--or at least
consume my attention.

I do think I'd be better off without a TV or even without a home Internet
connection. But I guess balance is my personal cross to bear.

Are these games dangerous? Possibly but I tend to thinkpretty much everything
is dangerous to some people. Alcohol. Gambling. Trading. Even working out. It
ultimately comes down to personal responsibility.

EDIT: One last thing I'll add: one problem with this kind of game is the
longevity (timesink) nature. You see a similar (but much less severe) problem
with tabletop RPGs. Because you invest so much time it increases your
threshold for putting up with crap, basically.

In RPGs it might be a 7 hour session where nothing happens. In MMOGs it's
spending 1-2 hours LFG (looking for group), a week figuring out a raid
encounter, spending an our doing a CR (corpse recovery) and so on.

These days my leisure gaming activities are dominated by tabletop board gaming
of the Euro variety (Agricola, Age of Steam, Reef Encounter, Le Havre,
Dominion and so on). These tend to last 2-3 hours tops and, as such, have very
little "downtime". I find it a much more rewarding experience than huge
timesink games of any variety. Plus it's actually social.

On a side note, if there is anyone in NYC with interest I playing such games,
contact me via my info. :)

EDIT2: fixed some typos (typing on an iPad is error-prone), :)

~~~
stcredzero
_Even now I think all these games are fairly formulaic with the same basic
mechanics and psychological devices (compulsion loops, etc)._

Basically, MMOGs are all like resort casinos. There's some spectacle and
entertainment. The driving mechanic is the addictive variable schedule of
reward.

I'd like to make a game where true exploration is the base mechanic. There
would be no storyline, just exploration. All content would be either
procedurally generated, created by the users, or evolved through genetic
algorithms.

~~~
drndown2007
You're describing Minecraft (single player), though the exploration is
landscape only -- not much else to find.

~~~
stcredzero
One could use a procedurally-generated landscape as a substrate for lots of
user-generated and genetic algorithm-produced content.

------
paraschopra
patio11, we need you here. Where are you?

From what I know, Patrick used to spend a lot of time playing WoW. It will be
interesting to know what he actually got out of the game and what made him
stop playing the game (assuming he has indeed stopped playing the game)

~~~
patio11
I used to play WoW about twenty hours per week at the cushy exexjob (35 hours
of little work per week). It was fun, it gave me an English speaking social
outlet when I had none, and the experience of managing a sixty+ member guild
was great preparation for later (deadlines, communication, resolving
conflicts, etc).

There was an event in my family: the details are private, but it caused me to
reassess What I Wanted From Life. Better purple pixels figured rather low on
the totem pole. I quit. A few days later I picked up a new hobby: see, there
was this teacher who wanted to play bingo...

------
ryan-allen
How interesting.

I had been playing like mad since the new expansion came out. The other night
in a dispassionate drunken decision I cancelled my subscription AND
permanently deleted my characters. I wasn't a hardcore player but over about
14 months I had 1500 odd hours racked up across maybe 10 characters. Around 65
days play time.

I woke up the next day with a pretty bad hangover, but suddenly had a lot of
spare time that I usually didn't feel that I had.

I went for a bike ride, caught up with friends, read bits and pieces of some
books, played piano and hung out with my dog. Instead of a 16 hour stint
trying to 'gear up for the new cata raids'.

Last night I had dreams that I was playing though... But I can't go back,
everything is gone! To go back would mean starting again and I don't feel like
sinking two months of my spare time into 'levelling up' again.

~~~
hristov
Another life saved by alcohol.

------
swombat
My own experience: [http://inter-sections.net/2009/02/21/destroying-the-world-
of...](http://inter-sections.net/2009/02/21/destroying-the-world-of-warcraft)

Yes, if you have the right kind of mind, WoW is a soul-sucking, life-
destroying monster. Don't let it into your life.

~~~
famblycat
From your article:

"So, when World of Warcraft came out, I knew that it was very important that I
avoid playing it, because it clearly was a game that I would get instantly
addicted to."

I was also into MUDs big time while I was in school. That addiction was not
all bad since I eventually got into the hacking-the-codebase side of it, which
was in line with what I was studying. But as soon as I heard of it, I knew
that WoW was bad news for me. It would become my MUD addiction on steroids.

Thankfully I've managed to stay away from it so far. But I'm not really that
strong. Most of the credit goes to my aversion to having to pay a subscription
fee to play it.

------
trotsky
5 Creepy Ways Video Games Are Trying to Get You Addicted

[http://www.cracked.com/article_18461_5-creepy-ways-video-
gam...](http://www.cracked.com/article_18461_5-creepy-ways-video-games-are-
trying-to-get-you-addicted.html)

------
lwhi
I haven't ever played WoW - and I doubt I ever will, but I would have imagined
that the skills gained as a 'guild leader' would be commutable to a lot of
management level jobs?

Is this a fair assumption?

------
trotsky
It seems like the problem is the addiction. The author seems to acknowledge
this is the title, but goes on to mostly treat WOW or gaming addiction like it
is semi-unique. Granted, blizzard intentionally includes many elements that
are more or less designed for addiction (quite common in the industry/genre)
and that intention is troubling.

But otherwise it does seem like it shares a lot of traits with other
addictions. You can waste your life away watching TV, playing games, shooting
heroin, blogging, gambling, refreshing facebook, whatever. To be sure certain
of those tasks seem much more likely to lead to addiction (warcraft/heroin)
but it's clearly not the only factor.

There is also the question of whether addiction can be a pre-existing
condition more or less waiting to go off. I am far from a psychologist, but I
know that drug addicts often suffer from depression or other mental problems
and it seems likely that instead of the drugs causing them, at least some
times it was the condition that lead to the drugs (though I'm sure they become
heavily intertwined). Are WOW addicts more likely to be depressed or
agoraphobic? It seems quite possible. Would they have all developed this
because of the game? I don't know.

I would like to see the industry self police itself a little better. Online
games may always be addictive, but are lots of "brain hacks" intentionally
being used by the genre to extend lifetime engagement. They're easiest to see
in the more transparent copies - Zynga, foursquare, xbox live achievements.
Maybe they should need to cut the most manipulative of these out or suffer
chinese style regulation. We do, after all, try to shield kids from alcohol
and tobacco.

~~~
trotsky
There are clear abuses going on in the game industry. Check out this link
where a game designer from Microsoft talks about "behavioral game design" - he
illustrates his paper by comparing gamers to a rat inside a skinner box.

[http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/3085/behavioral_game_d...](http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/3085/behavioral_game_design.php?page=1)

------
cheald
The author touches on something that is very important: if you're playing WoW
_as a substitute_ for accomplishing things/meeting people/etc, therein lies
the problem. At the end of the day, WoW is cheap entertainment, and needs to
have priority as such.

I've met friends through WoW, but that hasn't supplanted my need to have real
friends. I've accomplished things in WoW, but that hasn't been a substitute
for accomplishments in my actual, real life. Heck, to extend the metaphor,
I've even made good money with WoW, but it's not a replacement for my normal
income.

When you let the the serotonin rush from a raiding achievement _replace_ your
desire to accomplish tangible things, then you're in trouble. If you use it as
entertainment, an augment to an existing healthy life, it's an entirely
different story.

At the end of the day, your gear and achievements and whatnot don't mean
anything; they are just trophies of time committed. That's fine, as long as
that's all they are; when they become a substitute for real success or social
involvement, you've crossed over from entertainment to dependence, and it's a
long, dark road from there.

------
Tycho
An article about the psychology of gaming which I found quite interesting:

[http://ifat-glassman.blogspot.com/2009/11/work-games-and-sel...](http://ifat-
glassman.blogspot.com/2009/11/work-games-and-self-esteem.html)

Personally I'm finding my interest in games is waining. A whole bunch of very
impressive AAA games came out this year - in the past I would have played all
of them, this year I only played Bad Company 2 and Halo Reach. I think I no
longer have the time/energy to make that initial investment in a game, where
you jump through a bunch of frustrating hoops until the fun starts and/or you
feel immersed in the game world. However, I still enjoy the competition online
- outsmarting other humans in a game of skill and strategy. So I play Bad
Company 2 on Live frequently, but I don't pursue the social component of it
(friendlists, clans etc). I'm not sure if I'll ever get bored of that.

And for that reason I avoid WoW like the plague: endless human competition,
massive social aspect. Bound to be addictive (mind you, i'm not sure what you
actually _do_ in WoW gameplay. the adverts are all cutscenes)

------
jimfl
I have been playing WoW for 4 years, now off and on. My co-workers at the
time, some of whom are still my co-workers at a different job, got me into it.

I have found that a good way to moderate my play is to refuse to make
appointments to play with others at a specific time. This effectively keeps
you from hardcore raiding, and minimizes real-world conflicts around the game
(affectionately referred to as "wife-aggro"). Eventually, I get pretty much
capped on gear and stats, get bored, and set the game aside until there is new
content. (Yes, I am playing Cataclysm after a hiatus in the Fall).

I am 44, and pretty much in the best shape of my life, because my attitude is
that I'd MUCH rather have skis, snowshoes, hiking boots, or Five Fingers
attached to my feet, than a game keyboard under my fingertips. I have never
been to a gym.

I don't have as many side projects as before WoW, but I try to make sure I'm
getting that out of my system at work now: making interesting things out of
interesting technologies.

------
ezf
Drugs: My anti-World of Warcraft.

------
rnernento
Good read. I'd like to add that a lot of the good parts of WoW, (PvP, Social
Interaction, Character Customization) have equal or better equivalents in
other games that take up far less time. League of Legends, Call of Duty,
Counterstrike, Warcraft/Starcraft can all easily be played with friends and in
moderation.

Devils Advocate:

Who are we to say what a "real" accomplishment is. Maybe spending 6-8 hrs in a
virtual world every day makes that world real to someone. If that world
becomes reality then goals met in the virtual world are real accomplishments
to them. In the grand scheme of things isn't life just trying to be happy
killing time until we die. If I go to the gym every day but spend most of my
life miserable is my life any more fulfilling than someone who spends 8hrs a
day playing WoW and loving it?

~~~
cheald
It's quite easy to say what a real accomplishment is in this case; a WoW
achievement or piece of gear is a flag or row in a database. The actual value
of the accomplishment is near nil; "real" accomplishments are some improvement
to some part of your life as a function of work.

WoW accomplishments only feel like accomplishments because there is an
artificial barrier in place to reach them. At the end of the day, the net
result is "I added a database row". Compare to something like getting in
shape, at which point the net result is "I've improved my health and added 15
years to my life" or to learning a skill that helps you contribute to
financial success or the creation of something that increases the beauty in
others' lives.

If it were actually difficult or noteworthy to achieve things in WoW, then
yes, they would be "real" accomplishments. However, a DBA could run a query
and give you 6 years worth of "accomplishments" on a whim (at no cost to
anyone else!). How can they be called real accomplishments when, after the
varnish has been stripped away, they can be granted with six seconds of work?

There are some real accomplishments to be had - you might learn how to manage
people, or the basics of supply and demand and arbitrage and resource
speculation, or time management, or hone better reflexes and spatial
awareness, etc, but none of those are "WoW accomplishments". What I mean to
say is that WoW is not fully valueless, but that the things it presents as
"accomplishment" are empty and meaningless at the end of the day.

------
scotty79
No game in my life was nearly as addictive as reading HN (or digg before that,
or watching news on tv before that).

Games in my life reach at most level of wikipedia reading. 12 hours grind once
in two months and casual use now and then.

WoW ? if I wanted to do chores all day, I'd get a job.

------
adriand
It's all part of the culture of entertainment we've developed, that is surely
partly to blame for the economic situation that western societies are finding
themselves in. These anecdotes about individuals extrapolate easily to
millions of people who are fixated on various ways to waste time.

I played WoW for about six months when it first came out, and since stopping
playing it (and most video games in general) I've often wondered what our
society could achieve if the immense creative and mental exertion spent on
games was spent on tackling real problems instead.

Certainly some people are working hard at meaningful things and using games as
downtime, but I suspect they're a minority.

------
nevinera
I dislike this type of article, because it seems predicated on the notion that
everyone experiences these games in the same way. I've had no trouble keeping
my gameplay moderate; it's not that difficult.

The problem is not the game, it's that people don't _know how_ to directly
improve their real life. The steps aren't obvious, and you don't get to start
with the knowledge that simple persistence will win nearly any task you can
set yourself.

The game is a symptom, not a disease.

------
stevefink
Haven't had a chance to read the article yet - but I already see where this is
going. I essentially lost a chunk of my life from 21 to 23yo playing EverQuest
with a guild that was rated one of the best to ever play the game. With that
came the caveat of constantly being the first at conquering new expansions,
leveling as fast as possible so you CAN conquer the new expansions, and end
less other power play moves (questing for keys, blah blah).

Long story short - my life was rather pathetic during these times. I found
myself so immersed in the MMORPG world that I'd pick raids and my friends in
the game over family/friends for any circumstances. Birthday parties,
engagement parties, night out with friends at the bars, hacking all night on
something that can potentially change the lives of people one day -- all gone.
Zero motivation, zero care in the world except to get that new robe for my
necromancer.

I remember my friends would drive by the window and start screaming for me to
come out with them for once. I would literally turn off the lights in my room
so they couldn't tell if I was home or not. Sad.

We had raids that lasted from 6pm on a Friday night and wouldn't end until
12am on Saturday. Anyone remember Veeshan's Peak in Kunark for EQ? Not only
was my social life directly impacted by way of never having a significant
other, I wasn't picking up any new programming skills, my family was
constantly on my case, and my close friends eventually just stopped calling,
they gave up. What was more embarrassing is the once in a blue moon when I
would show up some where, the comments were unbearable. "Oh look, Steve
decided to join us instead of his MMORPG friends for a change."

I am not exactly sure where I am going with this - but one day when I woke up
and saw five empty 2 liter bottles of coke with ten boxes of pizza collecting,
lying next to my desk, I was disgusted with myself and my lifestyle. I was
over weight. I probably didn't shower as much as I should have. I was
disgusted with myself and my lifestyle. I was burning the most crucial years
of my life away on something meaningless. These are the times to be learning
and exercising your brain beyond its capabilities as learning only gets more
difficult through out the ages. I bet most of you were writing bad ass code
when you were 21,22,23 and learned a lot faster then than you do now if you're
part of the older HN crew.

Given my competitive nature, I was never able to play an MMORPG casually. I
had to be #1. Being #1 requires a lot of dedication (ie, time invested), and
if you are not willing to put in the time, don't bother, you'll never be as
good as the other guy or have the same inventory or capabilities as them.
You'll be average at best. I have the sense that a large population of HN does
not settle for average given the intelligence of the community.

Long story short, the only escape I had was to go cold turkey. Going cold
turkey doesn't mean saying "Ok, I'm not going to login ever again" - that
never works out. You always get sucked back in at some point. I had to go the
drastic route. I had to sell all of my assets, which sold for $5,000 USD at
the time. There was times when I was going through withdrawals and wanted to
purchase my account back, but the original buyer refused. Thank god he did.

Saying that this was one of the smartest things I've ever done would be a huge
understatement. I've achieved things I'm personally proud of since quitting
playing any MMORPG including the following:

\- I have a healthy balance of a social life and work life.

\- I am respected among my peers for building new technologies/infrastructure
out.

    
    
      - I got married to the love of my life and had a baby girl with her, which is now the most important person in my life.
    
      - I have worked at startups where I've learned priceless lessons.
    
      - I bought a house that I would never be able to afford if I stuck to MMORPGs as my skills were no where near as blossomed as they are now - I'm assuming I'd be working an entry level job somewhere filling in Excel spreadsheets if I kept it up. Even then, I'd be lucky.
    

Good riddance. Do I still think about the days I played and get a small itch?
Sure. I even keep in touch via Facebook with a lot of the people who suffered
a similar addiction to me. Will I _ever_ touch another MMORPG? I can guarantee
you on my daughter's name that I will never get involved in one again.
Fortunately my addiction now includes a healthy balance of time with my
family, building awesome technologies, eating right and working out.

~~~
forensic
Fires of Heaven?

------
araneae
I quit Reddit cold turkey by deleting my account. I have only occasionally
looked at the front page since then, but it hasn't re-hooked me; getting rid
of the orange-red compulsion and the karma score was really effective at
breaking the addiction.

Now if only account deletion was enabled on HN...

------
jshen
I think people are primarily motivated by social status (after basic needs are
taken care of). The deal with WoW is that it becomes your social status to the
people you spend most of your time with, the other people in WoW.

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Keyframe
If I could only do this with reddit and hn, but work instead of working out!

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harscoat
Gaming like cigarette, do it once and you are smoker forever.

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SeanDav
Actually it all comes down to a simple choice - Do you want to take the red
pill, or the blue pill....

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charlesdm
Here's my perspective --

I've played WoW pretty hardcore for a little bit less than two years before I
quit. For me, I can actually say that the experience was beneficial to some
extent. This was around 4,5 years ago, before I even knew HN existed.

Before I started playing the game, I heard some of my friends talk about
raiding. For people that are not familiar with the concept, once you reach the
maximum level in the game you join a guild. Once you're in that guild, you can
go into dungeons with people from your guild and slay bosses. These bosses
drop items that in turn allow you to upgrade the gear of your character. The
cool thing about these bosses is that some of them actually quite challenging
to beat. Once every couple of months, the developers of the game add a new
dungeon that you can clear with your guild. They were also talking about these
high end guilds that apparently consisted of insanely good players that would
clear these dungeons before the masses did.

To give myself a challenge I decided to play the game but with a goal in mind,
join one of these guild. Once I managed this I would quit. I began as a noob.
I levelled up a character and joined a guild. Once I outgrew this guild I
joined a better one.

I played for around a year in this specific guild. While playing here I
actually met two people that I would call friends. Their background is so
different from mine that the chance is so slim that I could have met them in
real life. We've met up several times (in real life) and if I needed their
help they'd be there for me. In this guild I was also in charge of leading the
group of players through the dungeons. You're in charge of communicating how
to do certain things and during the fights you give guidelines if something
goes wrong. I raided 4-5 days per week from 19:00 - 23:00ish in this guild.

I then managed to join the guild that was N°1 at that time, together with one
of my friends from my previous guild. In this guild, it was all about
achieving the world first kill of a boss. It's great when you arrive at a boss
and you have no idea as what to expect and how to kill it. It can be a pretty
hard puzzle sometimes. If you're not there as one of the first you can read up
on proven ways to handle the fight, which is less challenging. Also, contrary
to popular belief, these guild usually play less then the other guilds. They
go all out when a new dungeon is released (1-2 weeks) and then they play one 5
hour day a week for 4-5 hours a day and they wait for the next one. The funny
thing is, the majority of the people that were playing here were also working
as lawyers, programmers or were entrepreneurs. I spent a couple of months with
the guild and once we cleared the last dungeon and had to wait for the next
one, I quit. After that, I also quit the game.

Many people told me I was addicted to it, but considering it was rather easy
for me to quit I'd say I wasn't. I was working towards a goal.

So what have I learned? I personally see life as a game. You win some, you
lose some. Regardless of what you want to learn or achieve, you can. Also,
communication is important in whatever you do, especially when you're in a
leadership position. Oh, and I had a great time playing it. :)

~~~
jlees
I also joined a world top guild (bouncing around #2 in Europe around the time
I played). It's a totally different experience from even that described in the
OP, and other people's experiences getting sucked into life at the mid-
level-40s. I have to say to those who found levelling addictive, hardcore
raiding is going to be ten times worse.

I'd agree _in general_ that those who really focus to zerg a new boss as fast
as possible end up playing less over time, but I also found many many people
of my old guild who played almost constantly once content was cleared. Several
would strive to have multiple highly geared alts, clearing the same content
multiple times a week on alts as well as mains in case the next encounter
needed a different class composition. Few of the people I raided with had jobs
or openly talked about them. People who turned up once a week for the farm
raid were mocked as being casual.

It's addictive in the way a job is addictive. Once your mind accepts there is
some reason for you to be in this raiding cycle, and especially if you play an
integral role (I was a main tank and tank officer), you feel you have to be
there every night - and it just becomes the centre of your world, despite not
receiving any real world compensation. The acclaim, worldwide achievement and
knowledge of being part of something that is undeniably awesome all tie into
it.

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lessallan
See this video? "Rogue Complex" funny shit.
<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OBqjDYJ6dCY>

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rcavezza
Haha, this shows how much of a jock nerd I am. I thought WoW meant Work Out
World, haha.

