
Catalonia’s Independence Vote Descends into Chaos and Clashes - thanatropism
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/01/world/europe/catalonia-independence-referendum.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&clickSource=story-heading&module=first-column-region&region=top-news&WT.nav=top-news
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centimeter
I don’t think the Spanish government could have done a better job of
justifying Catalan secession if they tried. Tons of horrific Spanish police
brutality on display at
[https://twitter.com/hashtag/CatalanReferendum?src=tren](https://twitter.com/hashtag/CatalanReferendum?src=tren)

~~~
Laforet
Even the Iraqi government shows more restraint. It's 1916 all over again.

~~~
cloakandswagger
Despite all the emotion and opinions about Catalonia, what you said is
absurdly stupid.

These are protesters being whacked with bats and shot by rubber bullets, with
no reported deaths yet. Saddam killed 5000 people with mustard gas, and the
current day Iraqi government employs summary executions against accused ISIS
members. They are universes apart.

~~~
skissane
I don't think what was said is "absurdly stupid".

Compare the actions of the Iraqi central government to the Kurdistan
independence referendum vs. the actions of the Spanish central government to
the Catalonia referendum, the two votes occurring roughly one week apart. In
both cases the central government considered the vote to be illegal. The Iraqi
central government, despite declaring the vote to be illegal, took no physical
steps to prevent it. The Spanish central government turned to violent
repression. So, rather than absurdly stupid, the comparison is quite accurate
– in this particular case, the Spanish government behaved far worse than the
Iraqi one did – and stuff that Saddam did (nothing to do with the actions of
the current Iraqi government which is controlled by anti-Saddam forces), or
stuff that the current Iraqi government does to ISIS fighters (summary
executions are abhorrent, but nothing to do with the Kurdish independence
vote) are just irrelevancies.

------
clarkmoody
"Illegal vote" is quite an interesting idea. The government that is supposedly
democratic must give permission to the people to hold a vote, or else out come
the batons and riot gear. It's a beautifully ironic snapshot of the nature of
the state and "democracy."

~~~
colanderman
Right, this is what completely baffles me. I haven't seen reasoning yet given
in the news outlets. The only "logical" reason I can think of is the Spanish
government thinks beating people queued in a line in the age of sousveillance
is preferable to the outcome of a legitimate vote on this topic being made
known.

~~~
dreamfactored
See
[https://medium.com/@tripu/referendum-e53331ddf841](https://medium.com/@tripu/referendum-e53331ddf841)

~~~
ardit33
I just read it, and it the whole point is: referendum is declared illegal, and
therefore it is ok for Spain's crackdown on it. And people should not vote on
illegal things, so they deserve it.....

The point of democracy is for people to voice their opinions and vote on their
future. Even if the referendum has no legal binding, it should have been
allowed to happen.

What's next, "polls" being declared illegal?

~~~
dreamfactored
I'm not sure you understood the article if you think that's what it said. The
point is that Spain is a representative democracy, not a direct one and that
this is the way every modern democracy works. Democracy is therefore about
voicing your opinion on who will govern, not on specific issues. You don't get
to unilaterally decide to have a vote on splitting up the country in any
nation in the world - devolution has to be negotiated and it takes
generations. The alternative is force and armed struggle - the Basque and
Northern Ireland approach, which we've hopefully put behind us.

~~~
fao_
> You don't get to unilaterally decide to have a vote on splitting up the
> country in any nation in the world

And you think this justifies the repression and violence perpetrated against
the Catalonian proletariat?

You're right, we hopefully have put armed struggle behind us, which is an
excuse for... an armed struggle? It wouldn't be a struggle if the vote was
allowed to go ahead. After that you can basically strangle it through
bureaucracy -- which would be the civilized way to do it.

As such, they've effectively forced the catalonians into revolution through
armed conflict.

~~~
dreamfactored
> And you think this justifies the repression and violence perpetrated against
> the Catalonian proletariats?

Where have I said this? That's a disgraceful accusation. I've said that the
Madrid government should resign so I'm in agreement with Ada Colau there.

> if the vote was allowed to go ahead

The article gives sound reasons why it shouldn't and why holding the vote is
_antidemocratic_. There may of course be good counterarguments but they aren't
being made. I'd like to see them, not childlike miscomprehension of how
democracy works.

> they've effectively forced the catalonians into revolution through armed
> conflict

You do realise that over half of Catalonia is against independence. This is
exactly the Northern Ireland problem where Madrid would be forced to defend
the interests of those Catalans even if they'd otherwise wanted to say goodbye
to Catalonia (presumably with Basque region next). The leadership on both
sides have been incredibly irresponsible in driving the country and region
towards that situation and of course it's the people who will pay for it.

~~~
gonvaled
> The article gives sound reasons why it shouldn't and why holding the vote is
> _antidemocratic_. There may of course be good counterarguments but they
> aren't being made. I'd like to see them, not childlike miscomprehension of
> how democracy works.

Of course they are being made: what a piece of paper says has only meaning if
there is a consensus behind it. A paper is not the Ultimate Truth: society
must be heard, since popular opinion changes.

The Catalan people have been working for their self-governance for decades,
and they (rightly or wrongly) feel that the central government is not willing
to accommodate their needs. It is not too much to ask to have one's voice
heard about these matters once in a while, ideally with a negotiated
referendum. Unfortunately the Spanish government has shown no inclination of
willing to hear what kind of relationship Catalans want to have with the rest
of the Spain; actually, the contrary has been the case: each time that
Catalans have tried to redraw the framework they have been confronted by a
very hostile central government.

The Spanish government (and the majority of the Spanish people) are treating
the constitution as a holy gospel, when it is exactly the opposite: it is a
document which should regulate and adapt to the needs of its people, whatever
they might be, and not some ultimate goal that people must abide to.

> You do realise that over half of Catalonia is against independence. This is
> exactly the Northern Ireland problem where Madrid would be forced to defend
> the interests of those Catalans even if they'd otherwise wanted to say
> goodbye to Catalonia (presumably with Basque region next). The leadership on
> both sides have been incredibly irresponsible in driving the country and
> region towards that situation and of course it's the people who will pay for
> it.

Which half should be deprived of their "rights"? Difficult question, but since
separatists have been deprived of their ideal world for years, maybe they
should get the chance to implement their vision?

This would have been much easier if the vote had been properly organized:
something with >60% turnout and >60% would had closed the case for
independence, something with >60% turnout and <40% would have closed it for
remaining in Spain, and something in between would have been grounds for
further discussions and negotiations.

As it stands, the handling of the situation by the Spanish government puts us
in a very awkward situation. I would say the case for independence is pretty
much sealed, since the chances that the Spanish government takes the Catalans
seriously is pretty much null.

------
doozy
It's surprising how weak the Spanish government is. The obvious course of
action would have been to arrest the entire leadership and charge them with
treason and sedition. In Germany the parties promoting this movement would
have been declared illegal and dissolved long ago.

It all boils down to a regional government using taxpayer's money to stage a
mock election as a means to usurp the functions of the democratically elected
national government.

And suddenly those who respect the Rule of Law are the bad guys.

Maybe the Spanish government is just waiting for them to actually declare
independence to bring down the hammer.

~~~
flukus
> And suddenly those who respect the Rule of Law are the bad guys.

So what is the legal path to independence? You can claim it's illegal all you
want, but unless there is a legal avenue to pursue then legality is
irrelevant.

~~~
gonvaled
That is indeed the core of the problem. Catalans have so far only been offered
fake alternatives: "Reform the Constitution", for which they will never have a
majority.

------
ringaroundthetx
Why did the national government respond with personnel at all?

If the national law, which all the states voted on in merely 1978, didn't
allow for any state to unilaterally declare independence and this was deemed
illegal and pointless, then why did they send police to enforce that, if it
doesn't matter?

~~~
gonvaled
A high turnout with a overwhelming vote for independence would have made it
politically impossible to ignore.

So they chose the next worse option: violent crack down.

The least bad option would have been a negotiated referendum, with the full
legitimacy of the State. And mind you, the separatists would have probably
lost.

------
grondilu
This reminds me of something I have been wondering lately : what is the ideal
size for a country? I mean, most borders nowadays are remnants of a very
different world where kings were continuously fighting to maximize their
territory, or at least not to let it shrink. Things are very different these
days, since most countries are peaceful and democratic.

If we were to rationalize all this and draw lines peacefully, what would be
the typical size of a country? Would we chose no country at all, in a world-
government? Would we pick the "city-state" model, as often advocated by
libertarians?

~~~
clarkmoody
The smaller the better.

Given the US perspective of polarized politics, how does it make sense that
the strongly-held beliefs of one portion of the _voting_ citizens should be
foisted upon the remainder of the entire population?

Smaller government is more responsive to the local conditions and culture than
is large government. And the inevitable abuses of the state against the
citizenry will be limited in scope.

~~~
ethbro
On the contrary, smaller countries are less effective in the international
arena (militarily, economically, and politically). Banding together with other
countries only creates a meta-republic of countries (e.g. the EU).

So I think the original question is quite valid. There's a sweet spot
somewhere between "as big as possible" (e.g. US or Russia) and "as small as
possible" (e.g. city-states).

My gut would be that it's more determined by economic production and ethnic
subgroups than some constant. Sufficient economic production to play
competitively on the world stage, while grouping as many like or agreeing
ethnic groups as possible (and preventing their repressing minority groups).

Or in other words, international jerrymandering.

~~~
JCzynski
I personally favor a weak federal government, somewhere in the vicinity of the
Articles of Confederation or EU, which manages military and basic rights,
supervening mainly on city-states and with special provision for a different
local model for large rural areas.

------
Retric
As far as I could find,

~770,000 votes lost and the results are clearly in favor of separation even if
every one of those lost votes was No.

[https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2017/oct/01/catalan-i...](https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2017/oct/01/catalan-
independence-referendum-spain-catalonia-vote-live)

~~~
marcoperaza
Over half of the population chose not to participate in an illegal vote that
the police were lawfully shutting down. Clearly, it's only the supporters of
independence who would be motivated to turn out anyway. People who respect the
legal authority of the Spanish government all stayed home. This has no
legitimacy.

~~~
Retric
The majority stay home for most elections, that says little.

Granted your argument would have more weight if say 10% of the population
voted, but with 40+% of the population voting you need to accept many yes and
no voters stayed home out of fear.

Or more widely if their where much doubt the government would have let a vote
take place secure in the knowledge they had popular support.

~~~
lz400
There are reports of people voting 4 times, and of people from another region
voting after presenting an id from another region. There were no election
observers from neutral or "no" political forces. The "international" observers
were secessionists from other regions of Spain. I don't believe the 40%. I
don't believe anything. This vote was a joke from its inception. As much as it
was horrible from the national government to beat people, it's as horrible to
push people to go out and fight riot police for a sham of a referendum.

~~~
Retric
That may be true, or even possibly a significant issue.

However, the exact same thing would be reported if it did not happen making it
somewhat meaningless observation.

PS: I really don't trust the 90% yes either. But, vote suppression IMO is a
sign the people in power expect the vote to go counter to their desires.

~~~
lz400
The 90% is plausible, since only the people voting yes were mobilized. What is
doubtful is the 40% participation. What there's no doubt about is that it's
not representative of the general population and there weren't enough
guarantees to take the result seriously.

~~~
gonvaled
The chance to make it more representative was yesterday, and the spanish
government chose not to.

~~~
lz400
No, yesterday was a process born dead. If there's no representation of all the
factions and a legally binding agreement to vote on, it's useless. The Spanish
government could have done nothing yesterday, maybe they should have, and we'd
be in the same place now, a illegitimate result with pretty much the same
numbers.

~~~
gonvaled
The Spanish government has had years, if not decades, to accommodate the
aspirations of the Catalan population, but it has chosen to either ignore them
or to actively work against them. This process is a consequence of a flowing
society crashing against inflexible institutions.

~~~
lz400
This is going off topic a little bit but it's interesting. Do you actually
know what those aspirations are? Are you able to read original sources in
Spanish? it might come as a surprise to you but this whole thing is built on
extreme in-solidarity and those aspirations amount to "we want to contribute
less tax to poorer regions" or "we didn't like that our unconstitutional law
was declared unconstitutional". The central government actually ceded to those
aspirations for 25 years and it was when they got too unjust for the rest of
the country when they said no more.

~~~
gonvaled
Sure I can, I am Spanish and Catalan, so I can read the Catalan version too
(not particularly interested in any of both versions). Whatever the Truth
behind all those complex questions is, at some point this becomes a matter of
opinion. And opinions are measured at the voting booth.

Modern societies should be flexible enough to allow for friction-less changes:
there are no holy cows.

~~~
lz400
There is part of it that is indeed opinion and "feeling". The cultural part,
the "hecho diferencial", whatever you want to call it. But there's also the
part where Montilla's government called inaceptable and "a grave offense" a
completely reasonable and correct ruling of the Spanish Constitutional Court
on the Catalan estatut. Thousands of people marched in Barcelona that day
against Spain when in fact that ruling was fair and equitable and didn't touch
much, just clarified economic assimetries are not cool, etc.

The first part, the feelings, I can't share but I can respect. I don't think
it makes for a significant part of Catalonia though, maybe 20-30%? The second
part, the in-solidarity, I can't have simpathy for and I think Spain is right
in staying put. And if that's the part that is really moving so many people to
independence (and it seems that way), then I don't think this is so much a
matter of opinion as it is of not knowing or not respecting the facts.

~~~
gonvaled
I am really not qualified to give my opinion on fiscal issues - as most people
are not. For details on these complex problems we must trust (interested)
third parties, so our perceptions are necessarily biased. I do not follow
neither Spanish nor Catalan news, so I have no strong opinion about these
matters.

But this is not the only issue: the situation in Catalonia is complex, and
ultimately should only be decided by Catalan people. One of the most common
arguments against the referendum, namely that people are being "brain-washed",
assumes three things wrongly:

1) That brainwashing happens only in one sense.

2) That people are easily brainwashed.

3) That brainwashed people have no right to vote.

The Human Right of auto-determination does not only apply to societies we are
not directly related to, but specially to the cases where we have an
interested stake, since that shows that we are actually committed to those
rights, and not using them abstractly to control remote regions by UN proxy.

The general principle applies: "I might not agree with you, but I will always
defend your right to voice your opinion"

~~~
lz400
Well, you don't need a PhD to see for yourself what was done in these laws and
to recognize the political intent. You kind of need to be able to, in fact, if
you want to know what's happening around you and take decisions as an informed
adult, and interested third parties might be biased, it's better to check and
form an opinion by yourself. We can't turn any discussion of fact in "I'm not
qualified so it's an opinion, so I'm entitled to mine, this is just a matter
of opinion". The fact is, the demands from the Catalonian government were
rightfully unconstitutional.

edit to attach the sentencing in particular, it's perfectly legible (only 14
articles eliminated), and the reasons why they were excessive easy to
understand.

[https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sentencia_del_Tribunal_Constit...](https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sentencia_del_Tribunal_Constitucional_sobre_el_Estatuto_de_Autonom%C3%ADa_de_Catalu%C3%B1a_de_2006)

------
vxNsr
While I'm all for democracy, this paragraph here seems to imply this wasn't
quite that:

Catalan officials instead relied on privately printed ballots, and changed the
voting rules an hour before polls were scheduled to open, to allow voters to
cast a ballot at any poll station, without using an envelope and whether
registered there or not.

~~~
nextos
I'm also all for democracy. And the Spanish government has handled the
situation atrociously.

But the referendum is a joke. Both the way it was called, and how it has been
conducted.

Furthermore, the result is impossible to believe given previous results in
open elections.

A sad day for Spain and Catalonia.

~~~
tomjakubowski
> Furthermore, the result is impossible to believe given previous results in
> open elections.

A natural or man-made disaster during a vote filters out the less "passionate"
portion of the electorate; if you don't care that much about an election's
outcome, a thunderstorm or the threat of riot police cracking open your skull
would probably convince you to stay home rather than visit your polling place.

I would imagine the bulk of the "passion" on this topic would reside with the
separatists, so it stands to reason the police action ironically resulted in
suppressing the "remain" vote.

------
senatorobama
I wonder if this will relight the flames of the Kashmir struggle.

------
SomeStupidPoint
Is there a good summary of why this is happening -- what the complaints and
issues are, etc?

~~~
falsedan
wikipedia.org/en/Catalonia

Spain, like all nation-states descended from medieval feudal states, is a
conglomeration of multiple distinct regions with individual histories.

~~~
cjalmeida
Except for a brief period in 1600s, Catalonia was never a sovereign entity.

If it weren't for a Catalan language revival in the 20th century as a response
to Franco's dictatorship, it's claim to independence from a historical
perspective has even less weight than Venice's.

~~~
falsedan
> _Venice_

lol ok

These regions still had self-governance far in excess to the equivalent
nowadays. Being a vassal state to a title is pretty unrestrictive: you had to
raise levies, pay a tithe, and not lose the province to a rival claim. Nobles
were free to set taxes and laws as they pleased.

------
spguy
Catalan goverment run this vote against all laws. There is no laws in Spain
that allows such a vote. Catalan goverment has used the people only as a way
to declare secession in next days.

------
marcoperaza
The Spanish government has succeeded in ruining the referendum. Law abiding
citizens who respect the Spanish government clearly stayed home and did not
participate in the illegal vote.

Anyone who is claiming an electoral victory for the independence camp is
delusional. The level of support for independence is nowhere near 90%, which
was the final tally. An illegal referendum that half the population either
chose to or was forced to boycott does not have any legitimacy.

~~~
centimeter
So you’re saying that the Spanish government's violent authoritarian tactics
backfired? Whoops, sucks for them. Maybe if they wanted all their supporters
to turn out they shouldn’t have been violently beating and shooting people at
the polling stations.

If the Spanish have any doubt as to the fact that the vast majority of
Catalonians want to leave Spain, they can feel free to allow people to hold a
referendum without attacking them this time.

~~~
marcoperaza
No, I'm saying they got exactly what they wanted: the referendum is less
meaningful than an online opinion poll.

