
What it means to believe that “real” trees no longer exist (2016) - camtarn
https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2016/09/flat-earth-truthers/499322/?single_page=true
======
BugsJustFindMe
> _I’ve always been mildly obsessed with the flat-earth truth movement, the
> sprawling network of people utterly convinced that..._

I can't help but feel a little bad for anyone who believes that flat-earthers
are genuine.

I've pretty much convinced myself that flat-earth groups are more like
speculative fanfiction archives than churches. The people who come up with all
of these theories and defenses do it because thinking about these things is
fun, not because they believe it. And they feed the perceptions of true belief
because that's fun too. And they form these little communities for the same
reasons that people writing new fan stories about Harry Potter do, because
it's more fun to do it with other people.

The author here isn't uncovering some secret truth about the world so much as
getting suckered into the drama, feeding it, and providing further joy and
incentive to the players.

And here I am possibly getting suckered into the author's drama. Maybe the
author is just one of the players and doesn't actually believe that they
believe.

~~~
Diederich
Quite a few flat-earthers really do believe it, and they're generally not
dummies.

I've engaged in open-minded and friendly conversations with flat-earth
individuals off and on for quite a few years. It's fascinating stuff; many are
pretty chill and willing to chat if you go in with a positive affect.

I think if you graphed the total number of people who truly believe the earth
is flat compared to the number of people who profess that just for 'troll'
purposes, the latter group would be growing rapidly, and the former growing
very slowly.

Why do I do this? Because the older I get, the more I realize that all of us,
everyone, make a lot of choices every day that we think are based on logic and
reason, but that are actually based on irrational experience and emotions. I
think we tend to back-fill with logic and reason as much as we can.

Many people get more things 'right' than others, but what's 'right' is damn
hard to know, isn't it?

This might seem like a wallow in all kinds of intellectual relativism, but
it's really not. We should all strive for logical and rational thought and
decision making, yet at the same time realize that we are all still
fundamentally driven by forces that are quite the opposite, and that drive is
largely invisible to us.

------
gmarx
I am fascinated by holocaust denial and the people who think the moon landing
was faked. Does anyone believe both? Do the people who believe those have any
other historic events that they think were made up?

Most importantly (too me) would it be possible to start one of these on
purpose? If you wanted to, what would be a good candidate?

I concluded that the atomic bomb is an excellent choice. I say there never was
an atomic bomb. It was propaganda to prevent the US and Soviet Union from
engaging in a disastrous WWIII so soon after WWII. And it was very effective
but it's time for all the suckers to wake up.

I know you've seen the films. Special effects! Hiroshima/Nagasaki? Regular
fire bombing that happened to get out of control because of favorable (or
unfavorable) winds! Godzilla? Well that's more difficult to explain but I'm
sure if we put our heads together we could come up with something.

Who's with me?!?!?

~~~
InitialLastName
Other notable historical conspiracy theories that have a surprising number of
adherants:

\- 9/11 was organized/enabled/allowed to happen by actors within the US Gov.

\- Pearl Harbor was organized/enabled/allowed to happen by actors within the
US Gov.

\- JFK was assassinated by the CIA

\- All history from CE 614 to CE 911 was fabricated by the Holy Roman Empire

~~~
nerdponx
Nos. 1, 2, and 4 are far more plausible than conspiracy theories like flat-
earth-ism, holocaust denial, and moon landing denial.

~~~
InitialLastName
1 and 2 are much harder to prove, since they're not about whether some big
thing happened as much as about who orchestrated it, which is a much more
ephemeral concept. We (mostly) all accept that some ships sank in Hawaii and
that the World Trade Center towers are missing as of 9/11/01\. It's what
happened and who made it happen that are in question.

I'd say 4 is just as easily disprovable as flat-earth-ism: There are other,
contemporary societies in contact with Western Europe who were also keeping
track of time... unless there was an Eurasia-wide conspiracy (in CE 1000) to
fabricate those years, the dates only line up the way we count them now. There
are also well-established (and recorded) astronomical events that line up well
with the commonly-accepted timeline (but that would take believing that
astronomical events are predictable by science).

In all, I'd say it's much more likely that NASA pretended to land on the moon
than that the century we think Mohammed lived in didn't happen.

EDIT: Misread my own numbering

------
ruminasean
I have a sketch of a theory that rattles around in my head. I'm fairly sure
I'll be pilloried, but what the heck.

It starts with a nation founded on faith and religion, of a group of people
who are willing to kill and enslave based purely on things they believe but
can't prove. They'll try like hell to prove it, they'll search up and down for
the slightest hint of something they feel to which they can connect other tiny
little other unproven dots to. It doesn't matter if YOU don't think it's true,
it's MY religion and I believe it and YOU can't fuck with MY faith.

It continues on through a society full of advertisements that scream "the
best!" "foolproof!" "most delicious!" night and day, from every corner...first
from papers and billboards and then up through radio, tv and the internet.
Even when demonstrably untrue and nonsensical, they're allowed to be
propagated and repeated.

It reaches a modern day where political classes can literally almost say or do
or vote what or however they want without fear of any serious reprisal or of
the citizens taking half a minute to remember that they said/did/voted the
exact opposite 6 months or two years ago.

This is true in the US specifically but also in varying proportions throughout
the world, and moreso as our model is spread everywhere.

So basically I wonder if first we have been misdirected and advertised at and
lied to for so long that a sizeable portion of those among us have actually
lost sight of what's true reality anymore. Some of my family members I
previously thought of as sane and rational have become so unhinged and
irrational that if they suddenly came to me and said "the earth is flat and
there are no trees" I might flinch for a second but otherwise would not be all
that surprised.

~~~
germinalphrase
I imagine we have simply developed a very refined understanding of how human
understanding can be manipulated. These tools started as a means to control
basic human functions (and the ability to live in large groups) and then were
refined for political & economic benefit in the post-war period.

We're probably 'enjoying' a new wave of this development with persistent media
and I imagine if the promises of AR/VR come to pass that we will see even more
severe divisions between individuals/communities/countries understandings of
what's "real".

------
teilo
This is sheer beauty. Once upon a time I would experience anxiety when I ran
into this kooky stuff. Now I find it delightful because I have come to realize
that is it impossible to have a rational discussion with irrational people,
and in any society there will always be a significant population that does not
yield to rational thought. While one might argue that such people are
detrimental to the mental and intellectual health of a society, I find those
claims to be mostly posturing. With some exceptions, these people are mostly
harmless. So what to do? Why fret about it? Study the phenomenon and enjoy it.

~~~
macintux
I think if you broaden your view a bit, you'll see why it's not harmless:
climate change deniers fall into the same basic group, as do anti-vaxxers.
Both dangerous for different reasons.

~~~
DanielBMarkham
I think if you broaden your view a bit more, you'll realize that humans are at
heart irrational animals. Understanding, appreciating, and respecting the
flat-earthers is a way of understanding and appreciating yourself, because you
never truly see the many ways you are broken.

It's the ones that don't understand this who are truly dangerous, not folks
who believe weird stuff. You can believe anything you want with a spirit of
humility and openness.

~~~
Nursie
Erm, no, people that believe things like vaccines or climate change are
conspiracies do actual, measurable harm.

Humans are irrational, indeed. That doesn't mean that some of the far-out
crazy isn't directly or indirectly harmful.

------
scarmig
The most unbelievable thing of all of this is that I spent an hour watching
the video.

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UHkiZNT3cyE](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UHkiZNT3cyE)

I started taking notes on everything that was wrong, but literally ran out of
ink. I advise watching at 1.5x speed.

------
pklausler
I've begun using the term "epistemologically disabled" to cover those in the
general class of crazy people that includes flat-earthers, anti-vaxxers,
chemtrailers, climate change deniers (anthropic or not), "Obama is a Kenyan
Muslim" republicans, &c. Because seeing this problem as a disability changes
my response from contempt into one that's more sympathetic.

------
nkrisc
Flat-Earthers are actually part of a vast CIA conspiracy to distract us from
the truth of a spherical Earth. They don't want us to know we can travel the
Earth over the poles, where the Earth's magnetic field and radiation causes
their mind-tracking technology to fail.

~~~
jshevek
Not spherical, rather spheroid. Oblate spheroid.

~~~
nkrisc
That's another conspiracy propagated by the Imperfect-Spherists.

~~~
qbrass
Just wait until you discover it's toroidal, but your perception of space-time
makes it's appear spherical.

------
lutusp
A quote from the flat-Earthers included in the article: "After watching this
video, you will reverse your concept of forests by 360 degrees."

At least these people understand their audience's intellectual limitations.

For the record, I circumnavigated the world solo in a 31-foot boat
([https://arachnoid.com/sailbook/](https://arachnoid.com/sailbook/)). From
direct empirical evidence, I know the earth is round.

~~~
hyperpape
It's funny how multiple people mentioned topology. But the simple response is
that you just went in a loop on a plane, because you don't know how to
navigate properly.

Of course, I believe you! I'm not a flat earther. But to someone who has
already made the mistakes necessary to convince themselves that the earth is
flat, it's easy to deny your proof. You don't have direct empirical evidence,
you have the evidence that you went in a loop, plus a bunch of science that
these people have crazy reasons for denying, and that science tells you that
loop involved going around a sphere.

~~~
jshevek
Good work at devil's advocate. Maybe you can help me with this -- how can
someone be a flat earther in the absence of any evidence of any edge to the
surface of the earth? What is the counter argument to this?

~~~
Nursie
That one's easy ;)

Antartica is not an island continent, but an ice-wall that extends around the
entire flat earth

Nobody has ever got a photograph of the edge because you can't go there,
you're not allowed. The governments of the world see to that!

~~~
jshevek
Creative! This reminds me of FreeCiv maps with the 'flat earth topology'
option turned on. The edge of the earth must be long enough to encompass the
earth. So the folks using that argument must imagine Antarctica as _huge_,
though we can easily measure the coastline and prove their explanation
impossible.

~~~
Nursie
Ah but if you go there, you are obviously part of conspiracy and not to be
trusted!

It's all delightfully solipsistic...

------
Retric
I think someone is missing the joke, but I can't tell if it's me or not.

~~~
jackmott
I assume that often these theories are first perpetuated by someone who is
joking, but then people take it seriously.

~~~
jdmichal
Kind of like Scientology, except less well funded.

------
chasing
If you really work at it, you can trick yourself into believing damn near
anything's true.

Sometimes you don't even have to really work at it.

~~~
dwaltrip
As Feynman put it: "The first principle is that you must not fool yourself –
and you are the easiest person to fool"

------
zeveb
What I'm curious about is the population distribution of flat-earthers. I
think it's pretty clear that some of them are trolls, having fun with a
ludicrous idea; some of them are mentally disturbed (schizophrenics of one
sort or another, I suppose), some fraction have exceedingly low IQs, some
fraction have high IQs but are exceedingly-poorly educated.

But is it really just mostly trolls? That's the only explanation that makes
sense.

> The particulars differ, but here everyone takes it as a given that a
> conspiracy reaching from your first schoolteacher to NASA to the
> metaphysical Beyond has deluded _humanity_ _[ed: emphasis mine]_

Misusing 'humanity' to mean 'mankind' (or, if you must, 'humankind') is one of
my pet peeves: humanity is the quality of being humane. Flat earthers don't
believe that a conspiracy is deluding the quality of being humane (that phrase
doesn't even make sense); they believe that a conspiracy is deluding mankind
(or, again, 'humankind').

edit: add closing paren

------
YCode
Scientology has clear paths to make money from their nonsense... What's the
goal with arch trees/flat earth theory?

~~~
J-dawg
Similar to your point - with some conspiracy theories I get the emotional
reasons for believing in them. Global warming denial, 9/11 was done by the
government, etc. I get that on an emotional level the reality is pretty hard
to handle, so the conspiracy theories are a sort of security blanket. However
ridiculous they are, I can see how they are appealing on some level.

But what's the emotional advantage of believing in a flat earth? And who is
the imagined evil enemy who benefits from making us all think the Earth is a
spheroid?

~~~
SuperGent
To be different. To prove that YOU know something that all the others don't.
For some people, this gives them meaning, a group to belong to, and reasons to
hate/distrust others.

~~~
J-dawg
I guess you're right. It makes me wonder how many of own opinions might just
be subconscious grabs for attention, even when I believe they're rational and
carefully considered. It is a little unsettling if you think about it for too
long!

------
BEEdwards
>Flat earth insists on the primacy of direct experience (look at the horizon,
really look, and try to see the curve) against abstract domination.

But you can see the curve... Have they never been to the ocean?

~~~
chc
I've been to the ocean many times and have never noticed any obvious
curvature. If it is visible, I can only imagine it's much easier for somebody
who doesn't want to see it to miss it.

EDIT: I just Googled and it sounds like the planet's radius is big enough
that, within the range our eyes can see, the curve is extremely subtle.

~~~
wbl
Notice the horizon. On a flat surface you should see until haze. On a clear
day on the ocean you see a horizon.

------
ozy
Anybody here will to confess they have pushed flat earth, while
believing/knowing the earth is round?

I am willing to confess I have pushed sharks are smooth:
[https://twitter.com/bransonreese/status/848746940179382272](https://twitter.com/bransonreese/status/848746940179382272)

------
InitialLastName
Besides the common community, what does this new concept have to do with flat
earth? They seem orthogonal.

Also, I can set up at least half a dozen different experiments to let me
"experience" that the Earth is round. Is Flat Earth Theory just another set of
blinders we get to put on if we want?

~~~
simias
As far as I can tell there's a huge overlap between flat earthers and
fundamentalist religious beliefs. If you go digging into their resources
you'll very often find treatises about "the science of the Bible" and similar
things. As such you'll often see the same people arguing for a flat earth,
intelligent design, 6000yo earth and similar things.

See for instance this video I was just watching:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-LNT3CucL6c](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-LNT3CucL6c)

It's a video about how NASA supposedly fakes the Mars rover pictures, yet the
description starts with "I believe the pope of Rome is Antichrist (Daniel
7:7-27,2Thessalonians 2:1-12,2Peter 2:1-22,1John 2:18-25, Revelation 13:1-9)
and Rome 'Mystery Babylon the Great the Mother of Harlots and Abominations of
the Earth' (Revelation 17:1-18)."

This is one of the first resources on the "flat earth society" website:
[http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/library/books/Is%20the%20...](http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/library/books/Is%20the%20Newtonian%20Astronomy%20True%20%28William%20Carpenter%29.pdf)

I haven't read through it but it features a chapter called "The Bible and
science", an other "Moses and geologists" and a third one "science versus
christianity".

I'm sure this tale of a primeval forest being destroyed by evil beings
resonates with people who believe in flood myths and the like.

In the end all these conspiracy theories are about rejecting science and the
"new world order/illuminatis/freemasons/..." who are the work of the devil
trying to corrupt us so that we stray away from god's path, or somesuch.

------
Luc
Hey, that's the 'mountain' from Close Encounters of the Third Kind.

~~~
protomyth
On a side note, I highly recommend visiting Devils Tower[1]. It is a pretty
place, but a bit out of the way. The perfect stop on one of those long road
trips to clear your head.

1) [https://www.nps.gov/deto/index.htm](https://www.nps.gov/deto/index.htm)

~~~
hprotagonist
and it's only a 5.6!

------
qntty
Big if true

