
What is going on with SoundCloud? - fwdbureau
http://www.factmag.com/2015/08/14/what-the-hell-is-going-on-with-soundcloud/
======
deng
It's a shame, really. SoundCloud used to be good service for independent
musicians, and I really liked the social aspects of it and the integration
into Ableton. But next thing you know, you read about deals with Warner and
100M funding and whatnot. Let's just hope Bandcamp keeps its focus; it's
currently my favourite site for discovering new music.

~~~
ChrisArgyle
SoundCloud's take-down algorithms are only targeting musicians who rely on
sampling copyrighted works. This, clearly, is a large chunk of SoundCloud's
current user base but I honestly think this will result in a net increase in
quality.

~~~
thuuuomas
What is it about sample-based music that makes it so inferior to acoustic
music (on average) that culling it en masse "will result in a net increase in
quality"?

edit: of order words out

~~~
nosuchthing
Derivative work can be great, sadly lazy derivative work comes off more as
theft but in the art world it's a blurry line. [1] [2] [3]

Lazy (creative) work seems of no higher quality than lazy work utilizing
premade bits. Bad code made from scratch, a bad song written from scratch, or
a bad sample based song...

    
    
      Examples of pure sample based musicians:
    
    
    

Kleptones:
[http://www.kleptones.com/pages/downloads.html](http://www.kleptones.com/pages/downloads.html)

Girltalk:
[http://illegalart.net/girltalk/shop/index.html](http://illegalart.net/girltalk/shop/index.html)

[1] [http://99designs.com/designer-blog/2013/04/19/5-famous-
copyr...](http://99designs.com/designer-blog/2013/04/19/5-famous-copyright-
infringement-cases/)

[2]
[http://www.theguardian.com/books/2008/feb/09/art](http://www.theguardian.com/books/2008/feb/09/art)

[3] [http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-06-17/richard-
pr...](http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-06-17/richard-prince-
instagram-and-authorship-in-a-digital-world)

------
jcadam
Every time a new idea for a site/app/etc. involving 'music' and the 'internet'
occurs to me (or is suggested to me), I immediately reject it out of hand:
"Nope, DMCA/RIAA/ASCAP/etc. -- too risky."

P.S. Take a look sometime at ASCAP's requirements and fees/rates for digital
music services -- it's _insane_. I don't know how any service could keep ASCAP
placated and turn a profit.

~~~
jshap70
They're not supposed to turn a profit while complying with their rates. It's a
way to make sure they stay in control of who is selling the music.

------
Kenji
SoundCloud got big enough to get a good slice of attention from copyright
bullies, that's what happened. It's a pattern you see everywhere. If it's on a
small scale, nobody really seems to care, but then the service grows and if it
fails to deal with copyright infringement properly, it's going down.

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Sir_Cmpwn
Self hosting your stuff is the only reasonable way to publish these days.
Everyone who could host it FOR you is falling prey to the DMCA, one after
another. Either that, or work to fix this broken system.

~~~
rtpg
You do know that the DMCA applies even when you're self-hosting right?

~~~
Sir_Cmpwn
Yes, but you can cite fair use. The problem isn't with stolen music, it's with
things like mashups being taken down.

~~~
TylerE
Eh? Mashups are "stolen music" by any reasonable definition.

~~~
Sir_Cmpwn
No, they clearly fall under fair use.

~~~
TylerE
Really, under which clause?

Is it for educational purposes? Using only a small portion of the original
work? Is the creator deriving no commercial benefit?

(PS: Fair Use is a legal defense, not a positive rights clearance).

See also: Bridgeport Music Inc vs Dimension Films
([https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bridgeport_Music,_Inc._v._Dime...](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bridgeport_Music,_Inc._v._Dimension_Films))

~~~
Sir_Cmpwn
It's often at least the latter two things. Sampling is _huge_ , though,
without it we wouldn't have a lot of music. IANAL but there's clearly
precedent.

~~~
TylerE
So people are releasing these totally anonymously? Self-promotion is very much
a commercial benefit.

~~~
Sir_Cmpwn
Hah. That's taking things too far.

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pinaceae
the funny thing is that nearly every musician learns through playing covers.
be it stumbling through a riff or trying to make a mashup in FTL. some
progress into soemthing the audience likes, eventually start making their own
music.

which the industry then makes their profits from.

kids like Kygo - start with DJ mixes, add a bit of their flavor, get noticed
by Diplo+Friends, now doing his own thing. all documented through his
soundcloud account.

the way to become a master is through imitation, then refinement. from music
to code to sports, does not matter.

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ldarby
Reminds me of this: [https://xkcd.com/743/](https://xkcd.com/743/). What's sad
is that was 5 years ago, and nothing has changed since then.

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haywirez
Regarding self-hosting, could anyone share some technical links related to
streaming? Are there good/easy ways to interactively 'chunk-stream' audio
without giving away the entire file (without Flash...)?

~~~
coldpie
I think the new(-ish) MediaStream APIs are designed precisely for this.

[https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/audio/raw-
file/tip/streams/StreamProc...](https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/audio/raw-
file/tip/streams/StreamProcessing.html)

The simple audio element itself might be sufficient.

~~~
haywirez
Thank you, looking into this!

------
sp4ke
Goodbye soundcloud, I really enjoyed discovering music on their service but I
cannot support this kind of behaviours. It was made me quit Deezer, and now
quitting SoundCloud.

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bitL
Basically there is no way a new "The KLF" could spawn nowadays...

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theseatoms
Doesn't the fact that they're based in Germany protect them from DMCA
takedowns? I always figured that locating there was a calculated move, giving
them a strategic advantage on this front.

~~~
kuschku
Thanks to recent international treaties and safe-harbor regulations, they are
forced to comply with DMCA. Even if a song is legal in Germany, if any of the
parties involved (in this case, Warner Music) is in the US, US right, with
DMCA, applies.

The US is quite literally forcing its laws on the rest of the world, and it
gets worse every day.

This is also why so many are against TTIP. Trade treaty with China? No
problem. With Japan? No problem. With the US? Fuck it.

------
rocky1138
I've felt for the past few months that SoundCloud is just too good to be true.
It feels like it's only a matter of time until they get bought out or shut
down.

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mrottenkolber
So I upload a DJ mix and it gets rejected because of "Copyright blah blah".
Then I fill out the form and tell them "Guys, it's a DJ mix, not the song you
claim it to be". I never received a response. So I guess SoundCloud is no
longer for me.

~~~
globuous
What are the laws on using copyrighted material in mixes do you know ? I know
Sound of Monte Carlo's soundcloud (they uplaod monthly mixes or w/e) is about
to be taken down, they do use copyrighted material in their mixes though.

~~~
DrJokepu
In the US, if you use someone else's work or recording in your work, it's
derivative work and unless the original work was in the public domain or your
usage constitutes "fair use" (e.g. parody), you need to get their permission.

In the UK, where Soundcloud is based, it's very similar, except the equivalent
of "fair use" is called "fair dealing" and it's much more restrictive in
scope.

~~~
chefkoch
I thought soundcloud is based in Berlin?

~~~
DrJokepu
They're registered in the United Kingdom (England and Wales):
[https://soundcloud.com/imprint](https://soundcloud.com/imprint)

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stefantalpalaru
The root of all evil is blind trust in algorithms, usually by people that
don't write algorithms themselves - people in charge.

We can't be both watched over by machines of loving grace and at the same time
deal fairly and respectfully with each human user. I hope SoundCloud is not
too big to fully pay the price of its arrogance and fade into oblivion.

