
Ask HN: Did you start a company whilst employed? - GFuller
I&#x27;d like to learn about entrepreneurs who successfully started companies whilst employed.<p>- What type of company did you start?
- How did your employer take it when you left?
- Where is the company at now?
- And any helpful advice you could offer someone trying to do the same thing?
======
pud
I started my first company while employed as a project manager at a web design
shop. I started a (smaller) web design shop.

While employed, I spent some evenings and weekends trying to find clients. I
quit my job when I got my first paying client.

The company I started isn't around anymore -- but here I am 18 years later
still happily self-employed and doing well. So I'd say it was a success.

Edit: Last month I gave a convocation address at Syracuse University
graduation where I talk about how I got started as an entrepreneur:

[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y5RJAN5mNhA](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y5RJAN5mNhA)

~~~
sumedh
That was a nice talk.

Why am I getting the Jobs stanford speech vibe in your talk.

~~~
leonroy
Heheh, was wondering if I was the only one who felt that!

That said, great talk, found it pretty inspirational as a jaded 30 year old,
so doubtless those kids would have taken away some of your 'stories' and filed
them under advice!

pud, you mentioned having been bought out a few times. Did you not have to
stick around 'under new management' at any of the places?

------
swombat
I started my first company while employed as a Consultant at Accenture/UBS. I
did not tell anyone at work that I was doing so, nor did I work on the
business while at the office.

Vocalix was a tech startup, aiming to "put voice on the web". I'll spare you
the details, but I worked on it from 4am to 7am every day, mostly thanks to
the wond'rous benefits of Modafinil, after which I would take a one hour nap
and then go to work. I did that for 9 months straight. I wouldn't recommend it
to anyone starting a startup. I made numerous mistakes, slips, mismanagements,
bad technical choices, etc, because I was constantly exhausted, and because
Modafinil affected my lateral thinking (though it's great for getting through
a task list).

Vocalix was effectively dead on arrival, and within 3 months of me quitting my
job we decided it wasn't going to work. Ouch.

My advice: if you're going to start a startup, do it properly. Reduce your
costs, learn about startups and obvious mistakes, save up some money - all
while still employed. Then when you're ready make the jump cleanly.

Some further thoughts about it here: [http://swombat.com/2011/12/15/startup-
escape-path](http://swombat.com/2011/12/15/startup-escape-path)

~~~
lee
Just curious, did you take Modafinil continuously for 9 months straight as
well?

~~~
swombat
Yes, mostly.

------
toddynho
I started BuySellAds ([http://buysellads.com](http://buysellads.com)) while
employed full-time at HubSpot ([http://hubspot.com](http://hubspot.com)). A
few years after leaving, my company ended up on the Inc 500
([http://www.inc.com/profile/buysellads](http://www.inc.com/profile/buysellads))
and we're still doing quite well.

\- I had the project specifically spelled out in my employment agreement with
them since I had already been working on it for a while. I started working for
them because I genuinely believed in their mission, and there was a certain
allure of a steady paycheck after freelancing for a while. I made the decision
to leave after about a year of trying to juggle both.

\- By the time I left HubSpot was 50 people and they had plenty of funding, so
while perhaps they would have liked for me to stick around, there's nothing I
did that has ultimately contributed to them becoming the billion dollar
company they are today (a nice humbling lesson for the youngster I was back
then...).

\- I actually think doing this (as long as you can keep it clean legally and
actually own what you're building in your spare time) far outweighs quitting
your job before starting a company. I wrote a post on Quora about this in a
little more detail ([http://www.quora.com/I-plan-to-quit-my-job-at-a-software-
com...](http://www.quora.com/I-plan-to-quit-my-job-at-a-software-company-and-
do-my-own-startup-Im-24-single-with-2-5-years-of-savings-195K-with-no-debt-
health-issues-How-much-of-my-savings-should-I-invest-in-my-own-
startup/answer/Todd-Garland?__snids__=486789676&__nsrc__=1))

~~~
iambateman
Oddly enough, in 2011 I was employed by BeaconAds, which licensed BuySellAds'
technology, while I built a student news aggregator startup (I know, I know).

It didn't pan out very well.

~~~
tehwebguy
You gave it a shot and probably learned some things, don't feel too bad!

------
preinheimer
I launched WonderProxy ( [https://wonderproxy.com](https://wonderproxy.com) )
while employed. I actually launched it to solve a problem a co-worker was
having. He was a friend, and kept having to stay late to try and test aspects
of our website using various free web proxies.

I bought a few VPS in different countries, gave him the password, and it was
an instant hit.

They were my first customer, and are still a customer several years later. I
launched with like 13 servers. We've got 127 now in 65 different countries.

------
USNetizen
As it appears to be the case with most people here, I did the same thing -
started while still employed.

I started a cloud and security solutions company that mostly targets the
government market, but also commercial to a degree.

My employer was supportive. The government market is a little different,
though, so if you work for a large company they sometimes see you as an
opportunity to work on contracts that are targeted only for small business.
For example, you can get these special "small business only" contracts and
bring them to your (former) employer to work on as a subcontractor. You both
win in this case.

The company is currently growing steadily after about 9 months in operation.
We're in this for the long term, so steady is better than a rapid ascent. We
have about 5-6 employees and are generating enough to pay myself a large
percentage of what I was making working for other employers (which was fairly
substantial).

My advice is don't burn bridges - meaning don't let your startup work impact
your "day job" while you are doing both. Your employer can be a gateway to
your first customers, so don't upset them. Also, there is no "ideal" time to
make the leap, but when things are noticeably starting to take off (a couple
solid, stable clients on decent-paying contracts) and you can pay yourself
about 30-50% of what you were making in your full-time job it would be a good
sign.

~~~
pokstad
That sounds like a huge conflict of interest. At my company we have to sign a
COI form to promise we don't engage in such behavior.

~~~
fleitz
Similarly every company makes you sign non-poaching agreements, and then asks
you to poach your former colleagues.

~~~
pokstad
Poaching employees is a purely private matter though. When a company
contracted by the government agrees to subcontract to smaller "disadvantaged"
companies, but then hires it's own employee's firm, that may borderline on
fraud from the taxpayer's perspective.

~~~
USNetizen
It has nothing to do with hiring staff, and you can't be an employee
subcontracting an employer, that doesn't make sense. I don't think I clearly
explained that you bring work to your FORMER employer, whom you leverage as a
relationship. You can't carry on as an employee while you have contracts to
your name, that isn't allowed. But you can work on some of the relationship
building while you are employed and make the leap once you are ready to get
work.

~~~
pokstad
Depends on what you are doing to "relationship build":
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darleen_Druyun#United_States_Ai...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darleen_Druyun#United_States_Air_Force_tanker_contract_controversy)

As a result, my company now does ethics training every year. "Relationship
building" before changing ships is prohibited and can result in jail time.

------
paraschopra
Yes, I started
[http://visualwebsiteoptimizer.com/](http://visualwebsiteoptimizer.com/) when
I was employed as R&D engineer. I told them way before and the business
interests wasn't competing. The company is doing quite well.

My advice would be to say upfront and declare what you're doing, and if
possible get in writing that this is something you'll own (and not them).

~~~
alanbyrne
I agree with paraschopra. Many places I have worked have included a clause in
the employment contract that says something along the lines of "Anything you
create whilst working for us, including in your own time, will become property
of our company"

~~~
pkorzeniewski
I can't believe some companies include such clause, I would never sign such
bullshit agreement. I can understand a clause against creating something that
can be a competition to your employer products, but other than that - stay
away from my free time.

~~~
walshemj
Its the way Anglo Saxon employment law has developed over century's one of the
key acts is the "Masters and Servants Act".

Employment law heavily favours the employer hint we are the "servants" here

------
ntrepid8
I started a b2b SaaS company while employed and quit when we got our first
paying customers. I always built software in my off hours for fun, but when I
decided to try and solve other people's problems I realized it could be a
business rather than just a hobby. I don't think my employer knew or cared
what I was going to do after I left.

Currently we are in the process of being acquired by a larger company. I've
seen a few folks try to do a start a company this way and they almost always
underestimate how much work it's going to be. Everything takes 3 times longer
than you think it will and requires 10 times more effort.

I tried to raise seed funding and VC money but failed on both counts, so I
can't really give any useful advice on how to do that. I raise this because I
spent a lot of time in meetings with potential investors and gathering
information for them. Since that ended up being largely unproductive time, now
I wish I had just focused on my customers instead.

I'd be interested to hear how other people decide which investor meetings to
take and which ones to ignore.

~~~
Ixiaus
VCs and angels are always looking for that big return, a lot of bootstrapped
saas businesses aren't 10-15x for them.

I've raised from angels and micro-vcs, it's frustrating and time consuming.
Focus on revenue, keeping headcount low, and and bootstrap yourself to
success!

------
dctoedt
Re the employer's possible ownership of the employee's idea: A few years ao I
posted an annotated flow chart explaining how (U.S.) law works in this regard
-- see [http://www.oncontracts.com/docs/Who-owns-an-employee-
inventi...](http://www.oncontracts.com/docs/Who-owns-an-employee-
invention.pdf)

~~~
alok-g
A question that I have also posed to lawyers, but never heard a clear answer:

What does "invention" here mean? Is it limited to things that meet
patentability criteria? If so, is there a chart for other types of
intellectual property like copyrights (most applicable to software, and
hardware too), trademarks, etc.

California for example has specific clauses about ownership of inventions,
with no clarification on what "invention" means.

~~~
dctoedt
> _What does "invention" here mean? Is it limited to things that meet
> patentability criteria?_

I can't think of a case citation offhand, but my guess is that most (U.S.)
judges would apply essentially the same principles to unpatentable
"inventions" \-- defined in 35 USC 101 as any _" process, machine,
manufacture, or composition of matter, ... [or] improvement thereof"_ [1] ---
that qualified as confidential information of the employer.

(If an invention is unpatentable AND is public information, then normally it's
fair game for _anyone_ to use, at least in the U.S. --- EXCEPT that that (A)
an employee has an implied duty not to compete with his employer while still
employed there, and (B) the employee might be bound by a contractual covenant
not to compete for a limited time after leaving employment, which might or
might not be enforceable depending on the jurisdiction [California being a
well-known case in point].)

\----------

> _is there a chart for other types of intellectual property like copyrights
> (most applicable to software, and hardware too)_

I can't think of how copyright might apply to hardware, at least not to
functional aspects of it. I suppose that aesthetic-design features of hardware
might qualify as a "sculpture," which under 17 USC 102 (a)(5) would be
eligible for copyright protection [2] But under 17 USC 102(b), that protection
wouldn't cover functional aspects: _" In no case does copyright protection for
an original work of authorship extend to any idea, procedure, process, system,
method of operation, concept, principle, or discovery, regardless of the form
in which it is described, explained, illustrated, or embodied in such work."_
[2]

As to software, that depends on (A) whether the software counts as a "work
made for hire," which in this context means that it was created by an employee
within the scope of employment [3], and (B) if not, whether the employee
signed an agreement giving the employer rights to the copyrighted work. [4]

\----------

> _... trademarks, etc._

In the U.S., trademark rights arise from _use_ of the mark in providing goods
or services. (You can file an application to register a mark in the USPTO
based on a bona fide intent to use the mark "in commerce that may lawfully be
regulated by Congress," but the registration won't be issued unless and until
the applicant shows that he / she /it has actually begun using the mark in
Congress.)

That's not to say that an employer might not try to claim that a confidential
_idea_ for a particularly-good trademark belonged to the employer, e.g.,
because the employee who came up with the idea was working on a company
project when she did so.

[1]
[http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/35/101](http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/35/101)

[2]
[http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/17/102](http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/17/102)

[3]
[http://www.copyright.gov/circs/circ09.pdf](http://www.copyright.gov/circs/circ09.pdf)
_(scroll down to "Agency Law")_

[4]
[http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/17/201](http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/17/201)

~~~
alok-g
Thanks for a detailed reply. I read it a few times, and still have a few
follow-up comments/questions:

A.

[1] Defines inventions as '(a) The term "invention" means invention or
discovery.', which means the normal English meaning applies. That clearly
means for example that exceptions like California section 2870 [2] do not help
employees for software side-projects (since software is subject to copyrights,
not necessarily inventions unless some invention is involved in the developed
software).

This clearly means an employment agreement could make all software belong to
the employer if developed while being employed, even if the clauses applicable
to inventions in [2] like "developed in employee's own time" are satisfied.

And that means that people with software side-projects while being employed
elsewhere most likely in a software company may be having an issue since
majority sign employment contracts without reading (and are surprised when I
tell them about these things). I have commonly seen employment contracts
stating "any invention, whether patentable or not, ... works of authorship,
whether copyrightable or not, ... developed during the course of the
employment ... are a property of the employer ... with the exceptions noted
California code 2870 ..." (which as I now know, does not cover software by
itself).

Please let me know if my understanding above is not correct. :-)

B.

Hardware copyrights: Hardware, as you would know, has extensive design
documents and blueprints that include circuit schematics, layouts, digital
logic specified in hardware description languages (just like software), all of
which involve creative expression. These then result in the actual hardware
embodying these design blueprints that I guess would be a "tangible medium of
expression" [3]. Integrated circuit layouts for example carry a nearly
verbatim copy of the layout of the design, just like a printout of the same
layout would.

I now understand that "functional" aspects would not be copyrightable. I am
surprised to see "system" listed in [3] though, which I thought could be
considered a tangible medium of expression. From a scientific standpoint, a
CD-ROM for example can readily be described as a "system". So would be a piece
of paper. As I am reading [3], a CD-ROM carrying a software would not be
subject to copyrights if the CD-ROM could be considered to be a system. I am
wondering now if there is a formal definition of that is a "system". :-)

I understand the remarks you made about trademarks fully. Thanks for noting
the specific details there too!

C.

What does "compete" with the employer mean? :-) If someone is developing an
iPad app (software) while working for a company that makes enterprise software
and does not have any current or anticipated line of business making mobile
apps, would that be competing? I am guessing 'yes'. Now what happens if a
company is making CR-ROMs for a software they sell. Would someone making music
CDs and selling those be in competition? I have been guessing that if the
employee's business is within the same trademark code of the employer's
current or anticipated line of business, that could be considered competing.
If and only if so, all computer/electronics related stuff seems to fall in the
same trademark code [4], which means clear trouble for all the people having
technology side-projects.

[1]
[http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/35/100](http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/35/100)

[2]
[http://law.onecle.com/california/labor/2870.html](http://law.onecle.com/california/labor/2870.html)

[3]
[http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/17/102](http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/17/102)

[4]
[http://www.tmweb.com/trademark_classes.asp#9](http://www.tmweb.com/trademark_classes.asp#9)

~~~
dctoedt
Alok --

1\. Many of the things you're asking would likely be very sensitive to the
specific facts of the situation, and probably at least somewhat unpredictable
in outcome. That includes, for example:

\+ the scope of copyright protection (see my summary of Oracle v. Google
below);

\+ the meaning of "compete" with an employer.

Consider the Oracle v. Google case, for example: A highly-regarded federal
trial judge in the Bay Area held that Google had not infringed any protectable
copyright interest in the Java API. But then a federal appellate court in
Washington DC ruled that the trial judge had used the wrong analytical
approach to determine what was protectable and what wasn't [1].

2\. If you're asking these questions because of your specific situation, be
very careful what you disclose publicly, because you might be jeopardizing
your attorney-client privilege by doing so.

(Also, for clarity, I'm not acting as your lawyer here, and you shouldn't rely
on what I say on HN as legal advice about your specific situation.)

3\. I haven't researched the California employee-invention statute recently,
and don't remember offhand how courts have interpreted the term "invention" as
used there. A quick Google search revealed a published law-student paper,
which I haven't read but it looks as though it might be useful [2].

4\. As to IC layouts, take a look at the Semiconductor Chip Protection Act
[3], which protects mask works.

NOTES:

[1] Oracle v. Google:
[http://scholar.google.com/scholar_case?case=1233342363690832...](http://scholar.google.com/scholar_case?case=12333423636908326934)

[2] Employee inventions: See Parker A. Howell, Whose Invention is it Anyway?
Employee Invention-Assignment Agreements and Their Limits, Cite as: 8 WASH.
J.L. TECH. & ARTS 79 (2012), [http://digital.law.washington.edu/dspace-
law/bitstream/handl...](http://digital.law.washington.edu/dspace-
law/bitstream/handle/1773.1/1169/8wjlta79.pdf?sequence=4)

[3] SCPA:
[http://www.copyright.gov/circs/circ100.pdf](http://www.copyright.gov/circs/circ100.pdf)

~~~
alok-g
Thanks again for detailed answers. I'll be reading reference 2 you cited in
more detail.

I indeed do not see this discussion as a substitute for legal advice, and
these questions have not been specifically my case. However, many
entrepreneurs I have met in person or through HN do have such issues without
realizing, possibly including some who have posted here itself [1] about the
side businesses they created while being employed.

[1]
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7867603](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7867603)

------
demystified
I did start a company while still employed.. Here is what I did:

\- Was upfront with my employer. (having established such a trust-based
relationship for a long-time did really help)

\- Told him that while I was using my spare time for my 'business'. If it
would start getting more of my time, I was willing to negotiate a part-time
position (hey, be honest, and if you are really valuable to your employer,
there is nothing you should be worried of)

Believe me, people quit their jobs all the time - what employers do not like
is getting caught off-guard. Just give them sufficient time in advance before
leaving your job -- that will be appreciated most of the time.

~~~
IgorPartola
It is your prerogative to not link to your company, but in this thread it is
perfectly acceptable in welcome. It is relevant context to the story each
person is trying to tell.

~~~
demystified
You are right -- changed it.. Thanks..

------
buro9
Beware the due diligence issues.

If you start a company whilst employed/contracted elsewhere you will need to
have your IP ownership and origin well-documented.

If you cannot get a document from your employer acknowledging that they have
no claim to any IP in your company, then you will need to consider providing
warranties to the new company that you accept liability for any subsequent
claim, etc.

Basically, go speak to a lawyer, but you want to make sure that you don't act
in a way now that gives your employer some claim on the company you are
starting.

Do no actual work, whilst still employed, until this is resolved.

------
Looksee
I started a small party rental service in college. It was sold after 2 years,
but I made enough for rent, and most of the people I delivered to were
extremely cool and sometimes let me hang out at their parties.

I was working as a statistician in LA overnight, from 9pm to 3am, and would
work my delivery service from 4pm - 9pm and go to college in the afternoons. I
was a broke student with no cash from home, so I made the best of it.

After college, I sold my rentals and client list to a friendly competitor (we
would refer clients back and forth if we couldn't do the job) for a fair
price. I quit my overnight job at about the same time. My employer took my
quitting OK, and the company ended up paying me for another 2 months to be on
standby and to train the replacement they hired. Just be cool, and straight
forward, I guess. I was very clear at the start of my stat job that I was in
college and wanted to keep this gig with those particular hours. I rejected a
promotion offer they made because I planned to leave and told them so. My boss
and I got along well, so to quit was bittersweet.

No regrets, I am successful still, in a completely different space.

Once you have to go out and kill your own meat for dinner.... food just never
tastes the same from anywhere else.

I haven't worked a fulltime job for someone else in 5 years.

~~~
reledi
If you don't mind me asking, what do you do now for a living?

~~~
Looksee
I invented an herb grinder 4 years ago, and founded the V. Syndicate. V.
Syndicate is heavily engaged in B2B and B2C marketing, manufacturing and
licensing in the cannabis/cannabis adjacent space.

Currently, I am devoting my attention to LookSee/LookSea, a B2B mobile app.

------
benweatherman
I was 1 of 4 co-founders of [https://www.ordoro.com](https://www.ordoro.com)
that we started just as I got a job at
[http://www.bazaarvoice.com](http://www.bazaarvoice.com). Both companies are
B2B but we're in totally different spaces and market sizes.

I was very upfront about my startup with Bazaarvoice. They were genuinely very
excited about my potential success. I was often asked by directors or C-levels
how things were going. I recently bumped into the CEO Brett Hurt and he asked
me how my startup was doing. I wouldn't have been able to work as hard as I
did on Ordoro without all the great support.

I think a big part of starting up while being employed is doing well at your
day job. You need to make sure you're doing well there so they can be
supportive. If they're having to pick up your slack, they won't be so happy
about your new venture.

Good luck!

~~~
bilingualing
I know one of the developers that works at your company. I went to undergrad
with them.

------
ChuckMcM
In answer to the question, no. A similar question might be have you ever
worked on developing a new relationship while you were in an existing
relationship? Strangely a lot of the same hazards exist :-)

Besides the legal challenges, there are the IP challenges, and if you're
honest with yourself you probably aren't doing your best work on one of the
two jobs (and likely the one paying the bills) and so you are putting your
reputation as an employee at risk as well.

The simple answer is, coming up with ideas? Great to do while you're working.
Always be on the lookout for the next big thing. Due diligence on what has
been done so far? Also fair game. Developing an itemized list of things you'd
have to have done before you were 'up and running', also a reasonable thing.
But once you pull the trigger and you're "starting a company", my experience
suggests you will be much more successful if you are doing that 'full time'
rather than 'nights and weekends.' If only to minimize the cognitive load of
things not related to your new company.

Also if you treat your current employer well, which is to say you leave when
you get serious about this new company. If it goes to hell they might take you
back, if it goes well they might invest, and if you're just looking for
mentors you may find them there. If you treat your employer poorly you will
not have a chance at those benefits.

------
flibble
I started up HandHQ.com (sells electronic goods) while employed. I was in my
first job as a software developer and just learning about web dev on the job
so started working on Hand HQ in the evenings to help speed up my learning.

I remember clearly the day the first automated sale came through, back in
2007. I had just finished integrating PayPal and fully automating the whole
order process the evening before and I got an email saying that a $400 sale
had been made. I thought it was my system not working until the PayPal payment
email came through moments later. I watched in amazement as my little program
noticed the order, pulled the relevant poker hands (this is what the site
sold) out of the database, zipped and uploaded them and then emailed the
customer that they were ready. I didn't have to do _anything_ and I'd just
made more than I was to make all day in my job. This was awesome.

I continued to run the site while employed for a while and then quit to do it
full time once it was making more per month than I was making in a year at
work. I didn't tell my employer why I was leaving.

I found that I was as productive while working on my business while employed
as when I quit to work on it full time. You can get _alot_ done in a couple of
hours in the evenings once you've spend a bit of your day during the day-job
thinking about what needs to be done that evening. I also found having a day-
job very motivational to work hard in the evenings so that I could quit. Once
I did quit that motivation wasn't there.

------
wuliwong
Thanks for asking this, I've wondered the same thing. I actually just launched
[http://www.SoSoSwift.com](http://www.SoSoSwift.com) 5 days ago. It certainly
isn't a company yet but I hope it might grow into one. If not SoSoSwift, I
will certainly keep building startups on my nights and weekends. I work for a
big tech company. I know we have one of those crazy agreements about them
owning everything I make. But, like I've read I don't believe those overly-
broad agreements stand up well in court. Basically, I feel that if I get to
the point at which someone starts suing me, then I've accomplished something
already. I would be astonished if a court awarded my company to my employer. I
suppose a more realistic outcome might be some percentage of ownership or
damages? I know it isn't the ideal stance to take but I don't have the savings
to first quit my job and then start a project. Anyway, I've enjoyed reading
comments from people that have actually started successful companies in this
scenario. It seems to be the road less traveled in the startup world, or at
least the road less talked about.

~~~
nostrademons
The real risk with IP agreements isn't that you'll get sued, it's that
acquirers and investors usually won't touch you unless you can prove you
cleanly own all IP.

------
jacquesm
I've written a bit about this elsewhere, and on the off-chance of boring
people here with the repetition:

\- Software consultancy business;

\- actively supported me

\- still alive in it's 5th re-incarnation or so (or should I say 'pivot'?)

\- Helpful advice (well, if it is helpful or not time will tell):

If you feel you can trust your boss then be open about it.

Make sure you show that post 'quitting' time you're still available to hold up
your end if need be, offer them a (small) discount over your regular rates.

Build relationships, that starts when you're still employed and will carry
over into the future when you're acting for your own shop. Deliver quality,
don't lower your price in order to get jobs, know your value. Work harder than
your competitors, charge the same and show your work.

Under no circumstance should you compete with your former employer for
customers they already had while you were working there.

Be sure to stay in contact with the industry you left, including your old
firm, stop by for a cup of coffee without being on the lookout to score jobs.

Be honorable. It may take a bit longer to 'get there' but it is a lot more
sure than cutting corners and making money over other peoples misfortune.

best of luck!

------
sebslomski
1 1/2 years ago I started my company
[http://cutterslounge.de](http://cutterslounge.de) I didn't quit my job and
started working on my company, I've already built a prototype of my product
whilst being employed. This gave me the huge advantage of not starting from
scratch. It was easier for me to convince my now co-founder to join me and
quit his job.

After I quit my job, I had still a good relationship with them, which made it
possible for me to work freelance for them from time to time. This means there
was cash flow from the very first days.

Now, a 1 1/2 years later, our product has become passive income with almost no
effort now. My co-founder and me worked as consultants/freelancers while we
developed our product. Showing off our product gained us trust and some local
fame, which lead to many really cool jobs and investments (right now we ware
working on a quite cool project, where we are invested in as well).

I'm happy :-)

~~~
nandreev
Very cool site, congratulations! Will you be expanding to other
countries/markets too?

Seems like most hair salons could benefit from this - it's so hectic in those
places.

------
Schwolop
First time, no. I struck out on my own and failed rapidly.

This time, yes. I'm dropping a day a week of salary, and working (with my main
job's blessing) on a new venture with some colleagues and others. For the
others they feel there's enough spare time to pull it off, but for myself I
don't have enough energy left after spending the time I think I ought to with
my family, so would rather take the monetary hit to make the time for it.

Too early to say much else, except that I strongly recommend getting formal
written approval for what you're doing - and especially so if you're taking
co-workers with you.

------
bawabawa
I am still currently employed and working on two online applications. Before
that, I failed twice mostly because my partners and I were all employed full-
time and we did not have enough time to dedicate to our side-project.

This time,I met with some investors who agreed to let me use their resources
(dev, design). This allows me to be sure that someone is working hard on the
development of the apps since they are paid for that.

I spend 30 minutes in the morning on the "social" aspect of the business, 2
hours at night on management of "my" team (review of the day, planning for the
next day, testing), and my Saturday is devoted to tasks which are more time-
consuming.

Sunday is the rest day which I keep free from my family.

As I am a C.F.O. by day, my applications are related to my field of expertise:

500Assets (Depreciation Software for accountants):
([http://500assets.com/](http://500assets.com/)) and rKruiter (Recruitment
Management for H.R. practitioners):
([http://www.rkruiter.com/](http://www.rkruiter.com/))

Being employed allows me to think about growing the company before getting a
salary for myself. My employer is fine with that as long as it does not
interfere with my job.

------
thenduks
I wrote a bug tracker called Bugrocket and convinced the owners of my employer
to switch us over to it from Bugzilla.

After a while of using it and improving it based on real-world usage, I
pitched launching it as a company. Drew up all the paperwork and incorporated
as co-founders. I didn't leave the company, we just all did it on the side.

That was 2009. It's still kicking, but growing really slowly (who knew, bug
tracking isn't very sexy :)).

Advice... that's trickier. Every situation is different. I think starting with
an MVP and dogfooding is really important. But generally just go for it and
see what happens. It will take up a lot of your free time, more than you
think, so be prepared for that.

I also agree with a lot of the other advice in here about bringing it up with
your boss - I don't think Bugrocket would be a company today if I hadn't
'pitched it' to my employer. Then again, in 2012 I started CourseCraft (an
ecourse platform) with my wife and we've been bootstrapping it on the side.
It's doing even better than Bugrocket. Like I said every situation is
different :)

That original employer was later acquired and I have since left, but it wasn't
because-of or related to the stuff on the side.

------
TylerJewell
Codenvy was started while I was employed at another company, Exo Platform. In
this case, I was an advisor to the board, generating recommendations on
strategic directions for the company. They had a product at the time called
exo ide that had decent traffic, but was a distraction to their core business
related to social enterprise portals. The original plan had been to shut down
the garage product itself, but we got permission from the board to explore
alternatives.

This gave us the freedom to look at alternative financing options, and to
pursue any avenue that could lead to continued operation of the site. We
eventually found investors, a new board, and a management team - that allowed
us to incorporate Codenvy, bring the IP over, the engineering team, and get
started. We did all of this while employed and receiving salaries from the
original parent venture.

Now the company has raised $9M and we just crossed our 50th employee last
week.

In our case, the helpful advice was that we were pursuing something that was
in the interests of the parent company. They wanted this side project to
succeed, but couldn't see a runway that made sense for them. By doing what was
right for the company, we stayed committed to this project, and it just turned
out that the best outcome was the formation of a new venture. That venture had
allegiances and alignment to the parent that made sense for all, and it turned
out to be an easy incorporation, and strongly backed by the parent. There
wasn't any need for subterfuge, but these circumstances were unique. Net - you
never know what the needs are of your employer, so if there is a business that
helps the employer out, they may be willing to extend special arrangements to
you during the incubation period.

------
brickcap
I tired to create a couple of products while I was still employed. They were
not successful but I learned a lot just by deciding to do it. And in the end
it gave me confidence enough to leave the job and go into consulting with
which fortunately I have had success.

Any way, whether or not you tell your employee about your startup depends upon
how well you know him/her, how comfortable are you with him/her and what your
contract says.

Can you convince your boss that the duration for which you work in his
organization would be as productive as it were before? Can you convince him
that you are not just gathering funds just so you can leave and work full time
on your own stuff when you are ready? Even if you have the very best of
intentions it is hard to convince others of the fact.

At least my thinking is that there is no need to say anything to anyone in
your organization unless you absolutely need to. During the early stages of
your startup I suppose even you are not sure if you can be successful with it.
Keep it under the wraps see how far you can go with it and then take a
decision.

~~~
GFuller
Thanks, this is along the lines of what I've been thinking. Although some have
said to be upfront with your employer. My current employment is in an
unrelated industry. I'm sure nothing good could come from letting my employers
know that I'm working on something in my spare time. Especially when I can't
be sure what I start will work.

~~~
rolfvandekrol
"Although some have said to be upfront with your employer."

Actually, almost all said to be upfront with your employer. And I really
advice you to do so too! If you don't dare to tell him (for whatever reason),
that's probably a sign of a not so very healthy relationship with your current
employer.

Most employers (especially in the IT industry) are quite supportive about
their employees pursuing their dreams. And they should be.

~~~
GFuller
I actually agree with everyone saying to be upfront with your employer. But in
my own situation I don't think it is required. I work in the oil & gas
industry as an engineer but build web apps on the side. My employers simply
wouldn't see any real value to them in what I'm doing. Also my contract does
not make any claims to ownership of things I build in my own time.

------
lauriswtf
Yes, I founded [https://hiburo.com](https://hiburo.com) and had the idea while
being employed and started building an early prototype on weekends/evenings.

However after I left the company, we changed the design and did a complete
rewrite (switched from PHP/Kohana to Python/Django). Now it is up and running
for a few months and growing slowly but steadily.

~~~
drd
> switched from PHP/Kohana to Python/Django

Would you mind if I ask why you switched?

BTW, nice design on your home page.

~~~
lauriswtf
Thanks.

Kohana was slowly dying at the time and the development had almost stopped
(currently the framework is completely dead). But really I just wanted to try
a new stack and Django looked promising. Also had prior Python experience.

In the next project [0] we went from Python/Django to Scala/Play :)

[0] - [http://datazenit.com/](http://datazenit.com/)

~~~
annapurna
Interesting to see how your sites have evolved but I guess you found the right
tools based on their applications. Both sites look good. Just two comments: \-
Datazenit blog: Font size seems a bit smaller \- Hiburo: Mediakit link is
broken (dropbox access?)

Good luck with both!

~~~
lauriswtf
Thanks for your feedback. Hiburo Media kit link seems to working from here
(tried from Incognito). Did it load at all for you?

And your are right about the right tool for the right task. Datazenit
naturally evolved into what it is now. Customer feedback and feature requests
initiated the switch to Scala.

Thanks!

------
beat
I did. I'm actually on my last week of dayjobbing (next to last week, actually
- they asked me to stay on another week to help with transition). I've put in
over a year of developing the idea (it's had one significant pivot), learning
technologies I didn't know before (particularly front end), learning how to
run a proper business, and ultimately, just talking my spouse into accepting
the risk and radical change to our lives.

So, so excited to go full time! But once I do... I promised my spouse (and
myself) revenue in six months, so I don't think life is going to get any
easier or less stressful. On the other hand, I'll be doing what I feel like I
_should_ be doing. After 20 years of corporate life, I'll finally take full
control of my fate.

The kind of company? It's a product for diffing system configurations, across
security boundaries and along the entire timeline of the system. Think CMDB
for the rest of us - easy to implement, affordable, and creating immediate
daily value by reducing debugging times and cross-organization friction. This
is a nontrivial thing to implement, though...

How did my employer take it? They're sad to lose me, of course, but a lot of
people are envious as well. Maybe they can envy my cold sweats too.

Many people have observed that the only emotions founders get are elation and
terror. Once I committed to it, though, I started feeling them both at the
same time. I don't think that's going to change, not for a while.

As for advice... the only good advice I have is figure out your runway. How
long can you go without getting paid? And what's your fallback plan? Get your
business plan roughly laid out so you know what you intend to do, and what
you'll do if it isn't working. And if you're married, do your best to make it
work with your spouse.

------
opilkin
I started a software development company while employed as tech support for
another software development company. I later quit my job to develop my
company. My boss didn't mind. I was 23 and I didn't really play it smart.
Things got tough and I hit a few roadblocks. I had to work some smaller jobs
just to get by and keep working on my company. Eventually, it started to pick
up and the project started to bring enough of an income to sustain myself.

It's been 2 years since things stabilized. I've moved around from city to
city, country to country. It's been an amazing experience working on what I
like and embracing the freedom of self-employment. Despite the volatile
journey, I do not regret my general choices (though some decisions could've
been executed better, in hindsight). I've learned so much!

I am now on the verge of releasing a new version of my software that should
propel my company to new heights. Exciting times!

My advice is to never give up :P

------
mokkol
I am starting my own company ( a saas app ) while im still employed. I changed
5 day workweek to 3 day work week so I have more time for my side project. The
salary cut is worth it. I rather spend some time in the weekend to rest and
preventing burning out. I can survive as well with my current salary so I
lower the risk for not having any income.

------
Major_Grooves
I started Satago and raised my first money for it on Seedrs while I was still
employed at Rocket Internet. I don't think it was in my contract that I could
not start a company (it is in many) but I did have to get an IP waiver from
Rocket before Seedrs would release the investment - just in case. I then built
most of the MVP (with a contractor) whilst employed, which was _very_
difficult.

Main advice would be to save as much money as you can before you take the
plunge. I did not have enough spare money. Also play with timezones if you
can. My contractor is in Russia, which meant I could work with him in the
mornings if I got up early before starting my day job.

Here is where we are now: [http://www.satago.co.uk](http://www.satago.co.uk)
Got in to the Seedcamp accelerator and raised $1M announced the other day.
Going quite well. First employee starting tomorrow. :)

~~~
reledi
How was the first day with employee #1?

~~~
Major_Grooves
It seemed to go quite well thanks. Obviously lots for him to pick up as quick
as possible. Hopefully he start seeing the fruits of his labour soon!

------
mqsiuser
I wrote and contributed important code in an area (Computer Systems
Integration) after seeing it lacking for years
([https://github.com/mqsiuser/Generic-ESQL-
Utilities](https://github.com/mqsiuser/Generic-ESQL-Utilities)). I just saw
that I could do it and I figured out how and thought intensly about everything
(putting in a lot of effort) and... how to benefit from it. Now the software
business is not so easy: The right thing: Open Source (Almost) Everything. The
problem: How to create income.

Next [http://www.use-the-tree.com](http://www.use-the-tree.com)

Same problem. It isn't easy to monetize in IT. There are paved ways though and
I'll certainly be back on a freelance consulting project soon :)

I lost my last one because I was too occupied by my side project (nevermind,
the project wasn't really worth it)

------
m4nu
Started working on [https://nota.io](https://nota.io) while employed as full
stack dev. The idea actually came from my day to day workflow.

Quickly I found that I had trouble focusing on the job that was actually
paying me and all i wanted to do is build my app. So I quit (my employer
totally understood my motivations). That was 6 months ago.

Now I've launched a few week ago and I am realising that I planed a bit short
budget wise, so soon I am afraid I'll have to go back job hunting. I wish i
had plan for more slack.

The lesson that i've taken form that is that if you want to build a software
that you are passionate about soon enough it will take all your focus. So do
plan on that. Validate and plan as much as possible while keeping your day job
and when you are as ready as you possibly can just take the dive! Good luck.

------
j45
I went to school and worked part time while starting a business on the side.
Looking back, it's interesting to note that one may go through a progression
from freelancer, to contractor, to consultant and beyond.

Regardless of what you want to do, some lessons are waiting for us in every
decision we make, regardless of the direction.

Entrepreneurship, at a small level, teaches taught me real business skills.
There is a huge value in building something small before something big. The
difference is sufficient enough that the "go hard or go home" mantra neatly
seems to divide the folks who solved any problem of value to others, vs trying
to channel their inner Steve Jobs, or doing as others are.

The most valuable thing I have today is the realization that I"m going to do
this for a very long time and I will not accept anyone telling me to go home.

------
gsk
I started [https://filespin.io](https://filespin.io) when employed. We are
doing well in enterprise space. Getting ready to release for developers.

One advice I could have used when I started: It is unnecessary to worry about
your current employer. The truth is: "current employer" is a blanket name for
only a handful of people and most often they don't care very much as long as
what you do isn't affecting them adversely. Have non-compete agreements sorted
out and always be honest and upfront about your venture.

Do what's best for your customers and for yourself. Ultimately, that's the
only thing that matters.

Btw, my then boss was very supportive and we are now doing business with each
other.

~~~
freeqaz
Change your color scheme on the content, that is hard text to read! Greenish
background with orange text is bad. Awesome product though. :)

------
vyrotek
Here's a thread I started the day I quit my job to go full-time on my startup.
It's fun to look back at what I wrote. I was so excited and terrified at the
time. I shared some of my feelings and those of coworkers here.

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1347464](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1347464)

We've pivoted a bit and grown over the years. Our company IActionable is a
"gamification/engagement" platform. We focus on corporate/enterprise solutions
that allow employees and managers to track company specific goals,
achievements, performance, sales, etc. -
[http://IActionable.com](http://IActionable.com)

------
amac
In simplistic terms, doing a startup whilst employed elsewhere is probably a
bad idea on a number of levels. That said, i'm doing it; though I'm working on
'projects', not startups. (I've also formed a ltd (llc) umbrella company with
it's own bank account so I can properly account for savings I invest in my
ideas)

My first project is Octopus
([http://www.theoctopusapp.com](http://www.theoctopusapp.com)) whilst I've
also just started my second, Solarshell. I'm not sure one can do more than two
projects at any-time but then again, the likes of Musk and others seem to make
multiple things work.

------
reboog711
I did, sort of. I was working as "The tech guy" at a business to business
consulting firm. It was good varied experience.

Through word of mouth; I took on my first consulting client in my "spare"
time.

About a year later; I left the full time job and did consulting full time and
I have been doing that as my primary source of income for 14 years now.

I gave a presentation about my various business mishaps at a conference called
360|Stack. I called it How to Fail Fantastically.

[http://vimeopro.com/360conferences/360stack-2013/video/72773...](http://vimeopro.com/360conferences/360stack-2013/video/72773739)

------
SDGT
I work a full 8-5 salaried job, have a side job from 6-whenever I sleep, and
am starting a consulting gig with a friend of mine.

All bootstrapped, all while still having security. Things are still in their
infancy, but we have 5 clients between two people, so things may pick up a bit
soon.

I wouldn't do this any other way though. It may take a little bit longer to
set everything up, but I have security. If everything fails tomorrow, my worst
case scenario is I get back up and go back to work in the morning.

~~~
scuba7183
What do you consult?

~~~
SDGT
A lot.

We'll pretty much take care of whatever a company needs as long as it isn't
.net. We're predominately a PHP shop that deals with Magento and Drupal dev,
but we also do full app development from scratch on Symfony2 or Yii, whatever
fits the task the best.

We get requests for doing maint on clients old sites, migrations to new
setups, and sometimes just build off little glue apps that makes peoples'
lives easier around their respective offices. It's small but getting there.

------
christudor
I started MASSOLIT (www.massolit.co.uk) when I was still employed as a
strategy consultant. MASSOLIT provide video lectures in the arts and
humanities, though we are changing things _slightly_ at the moment. Anyway,
you can get a _lot_ of market research done while still doing a job, e.g.
e-mailing lots of people. The idea developed significantly while I was still
working, and I only left when we had positive noises about the product we were
making.

~~~
boxerab
Is your site name a reference to "The Master and Margarita" ?

------
gedrap
But aren't you risking to get sued by doing that?

I think almost all job contracts include a clause stating that any paid work
outside the company is allowed with written permission only (or, worse,
everything produced belongs to the company). I don't think any employer would
support that.

Of course, starting a start up is not exactly 'paid' work in a casual way, but
I my common sense says that it's quite clearly 'paid work', or at least
intended to be paid.

------
junto
A word of warning. Many companies include a contractual obligation inside your
employment contract that requires you to declare any company directorships,
whether you see you new startup as a conflict of interest or not.

I got fired from a well known PC manufacturer for not declaring such a
directorship. A web development consultancy was not a conflict of interest but
I broke the contract so it was a hard but valid lesson learned.

------
AndrewKemendo
I started Visidraft (www.visidraft.com) while still full time active duty
military. Surprisingly enough I built it to solve a pain point I had while
doing construction project management which is outside the scope of my formal
job title. I am hoping the success of Visidraft will allow me to transition
out of the military with minimal impact on my family.

We launch in August and given our Beta test results expect great growth.

------
randall
I started a company and was hired by my first customer for a year. While
there, I got to work on [http://vidpresso.com](http://vidpresso.com) while
maintaining the IP. It was awesome.

------
liox
hi there and congrats on taking your first step towards founding! i am
currently in the midst of several projects so i can provide some "in process"
advice; hopefully it will help to give you some perspective about the daily
grind and about “what it takes” to get to where you want!

\- my "day job”: i’m a manager at a medical device company (run training
department along with driving self-guided data mining projects that improve
training & engineering efficiency)

\- tech startups: i do biz dev and provide data science guidance as a co-
founder for two tech startups (one is an offshoot of a school project, one is
a social monitoring service specifically aimed at the utilities sector)

\- non-tech startup: i also have a product i’m in the process of bringing to
market that will make the men’s necktie a much more useful item. a little
random? yes. it’s one of those ideas that just happened to come along and so
far i’ve been able to [successfully] run with it!

\- part time MBA: i also am working towards an MBA on a part-time basis in
NYC. i’ve been able to adjust my specializations so they’re “tech focused” and
I’ve met some really awesome people in the data science/startup community in
NYC as a result.

how is it possible to do all of this? they key [for me] has been alignment. i
began by finding issues at my 9-5 that both captured my attention AND
presented the opportunity to be spun off into separate projects (if i played
my cards right and made sure there wouldn’t be IP issues down the road). i
then started aligning my 9-5 projects with my school related projects, thus
turning work into school and vise-versa. a year and a half later i’m heavily
involved with many ventures that i thoroughly enjoy, and while i put in a lot
of time and effort each day, it’s work that i enjoy so burnout hasn’t been a
concern (so far).

i wrote a motivational piece about how juggle everything and stay sane on my
non-tech startup’s website:
[http://www.takeiteasythursday.com/liox/2014/5/2/3-startups-o...](http://www.takeiteasythursday.com/liox/2014/5/2/3-startups-
one-9-5-and-an-mba)

if you have any q’s you can reach me via the contact page on the website! best
of luck!

------
epynonymous
i started [https://getsdone.io](https://getsdone.io) this is not a company per
se, it's a web application, worked mostly during late nights and some
weekends, though having a wife and kid meant my weekends weren't really that
available for stints of coding.

there's no traction for the site as i haven't really had time to make the
myriad fixes/features, but i am stopping most of the web development after
getting feedback from various users that a mobile app would be ideal, mobile
first, sort of.

------
seestheday
Has anyone ever worked at a company that effectively banned side businesses or
asked to pre-approve __all __side businesses?

------
geekam
Maybe this should have been a poll.

------
SalesZip
Me and my partner are in the process of setting up
[http://SalesZip.com](http://SalesZip.com).

We are working on it from January Last year. Both of us were working in the
business development. We decided to take few clients externally. After working
with them for six month we had saved enough. Both of us resigned from our
jobs. Employers were fortune 50 companies. They were not too bothered. As
company we are at place where we can choose the path we would like to take.

Advice : Find people who are in need of your services and ready to pay. Also
check with your lawyer to avoid legal issues.

------
paulhauggis
I started my current B2B sales company while employed. It was just me 2 years
ago. I stayed employed because it offered me some security/funding. But, my
employer eventually let me go (a disaster of a project. I was replaced by an
overseas worker for 1/3 my salary. This is what the boss told me when he let
me go).

I now have 2 other partners and an employee and the business pays all of our
bills.

Working while having a startup can work, but it will be hell on your social
life (and family life).

