
Is Smalltalk a weird cause to fight for? - louiscyphre
https://medium.com/@richardeng/is-smalltalk-a-weird-cause-to-fight-for-63c6ce0abf75
======
MH15
This article is very uninformative. Author spends entire post building up to
simply saying Smalltalk will make the world better, and does not continue. No
rationale is provided.

~~~
louiscyphre
Well, this article is simply an explanation for why he's an evangelist, sort
of a stream of consciousness thing. If you follow his blog, you will find
hundreds of informative posts about how and why Smalltalk is so remarkable in
terms of simplicity, ease of use, flexibility, versatility, maintainability,
scalability, and most importantly, productivity.

~~~
eesmith
As someone who doesn't follow his blog, my summary is: "lots of people have
'weird' interests. I think Smalltalk is the best programming language. It's so
good it can help save the world."

Sure, there might be explanations elsewhere, just like there are evangelists
for Lisp ... or Perl 6. And with similar arguments.

Take [http://flownet.com/gat/jpl-lisp.html](http://flownet.com/gat/jpl-
lisp.html) from 2002 as an example:

> I did try to introduce Lisp to Google. Having had some experience selling
> Lisp at JPL I got all my ducks in a row, had a cool demo going, showed it to
> all the other members of the ads team, and had them all convinced that this
> was a good idea. The only thing left was to get approval from the VP of
> engineering. The conversation went something like this:
    
    
       Me:  I'd like to talk to you about something...
       Him: Let me guess - you want to use Smalltalk.
       Me:  Er, no...
       Him: Lisp?
       Me: Right.
       Him:  No way.
    

That was 17 years ago! Any essay which doesn't take into account the "Lisp-
weenie" stereotype (see
[http://wiki.c2.com/?SmugLispWeenie](http://wiki.c2.com/?SmugLispWeenie) ) is
preaching to the choir.

I ended up putting this essay into the pile of other advocacy-for-language-X
pieces I've read, with no interest in reading other blog postings.

But I did anyway. [https://medium.com/@richardeng/how-does-python-make-
thinking...](https://medium.com/@richardeng/how-does-python-make-thinking-in-
code-easier-35a4dbb94711) ("Pythonistas will also tell you that Python’s
syntax reads like English"). 1) It's a strawman argument, as I'm a Pythonista
and I don't say that, and 2) AppleScript is more English-like than Smalltalk,
so if "English-like" were really a goal, that's more like what we should be
using.

[https://levelup.gitconnected.com/python-vs-pharo-
df47599a8ed...](https://levelup.gitconnected.com/python-vs-pharo-df47599a8ed0)
("Python vs Pharo") asserts that Pharo is easier to learn than Python.
However, it provides no empirical evidence that the chosen metrics are
appropriate. The ABC language, which was a strong influence on Python, show
how empirical tests can be done.

As an example from Python, a high school teacher presented at a Python
conference almost 20 years ago. The AP test at that time used C++ or Java - I
can't remember which. He found it was easier to teach Python first, then C++
or Java, than to do everything in C++ or Java. While this is anecdotal
evidence, it's still more substantial than an argument based on being able to
fit the syntax on a post card. (If that were important, use Lisp, Forth, or
APL, all of which have simpler syntax.)

And so on.

~~~
lizmat
> just like there are evangelists for Lisp ... or Perl 6

Please note that Perl 6 has been renamed to Raku
([https://raku.org](https://raku.org) using the #rakulang tag on social
media).

</evangelism>

~~~
dang
It looks like your account is using HN only for one thing. We don't really
allow single-purpose accounts here, because that conflicts with the site value
of intellectual curiosity:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html](https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html).
We want people to submit stories and post comments on topics that they ran
across and personally found intellectually interesting, not because they have
something to promote. When an account is only submitting and commenting
promotionally, the community really doesn't like it and we usually end up
banning it.

On the other hand, it's ok to post your own stuff as part of a diverse mix of
stories and comments that are about nothing in particular but just gratify
intellectual curiosity. Then you'll be participating in HN as a community
member and the community will see your account that way. It's particularly
good if you submit stories on weird or out-of-the-way topics that rarely or
never get attention. Those are the best!

~~~
lizmat
My apologies for reacting this late: the holidays had me not looking as
precisely at my feeds as normal.

Sorry if I seem to be just doing PR. I'm doing a lot more than that. I'm one
of the core developers of Raku (née Perl 6). And I publish the Rakudo Weekly
blog ([https://rakudoweekly.blog](https://rakudoweekly.blog) )

FWIW, I _do_ think I'm adding material to HN that is interesting to at least
some visitors of HN, especially the ones interested in programming, with an
emphasis on Raku. The reason I'm triggered by "Perl 6" is that I think it is
important that visitors of HN know that it is no longer called that. Once
everybody is using Raku instead of Perl 6, there won't be any of these
comments.

Whenever there's a new issue of the Rakudo Weekly, I post this on HN. Are you
saying that that is not of interest of HN visitors?

I'd therefore like to know what point of the guidelines I'm exactly in
violation of.

