
Detroit Is America’s Emerging Market - rmason
http://time.com/3204249/detroit-americas-emerging-market/
======
protonfish
This is certainly what Dan Gilbert would like you to think so he can resell
his cheaply purchased real estate at a profit.

Detroit has poor infrastructure (responsible for recent flooding,) high taxes,
no public rail transport, poor roads, rush-hour traffic congestion, poor
parking, some of the worst schools in the country, corrupt local government,
is full of blighted neighborhoods, and I am sure many other terrible things. I
am trying to see the reason why anyone would think it was a good idea to live
or work there in its current condition.

~~~
hentrep
Is this not the case for all "emerging markets"? This wouldn't be a story if
Detroit had low crime, great infrastructure, low taxes, superb public
transport, immaculate roads, and prestigious schools. All of the
aforementioned would translate to increased costs of living. Is Dan Gilbert
making money from this? Absolutely, but he's also the one that took on the
initial risk.

The cost for cheap, spacious housing and office space in Detroit is having to
tolerate a phoenix city in the midst of an identity crisis; expecting
something which resembles NYC or SF is silly. I grew up in Michigan and have
been to Detroit numerous times, and what I've witnessed lately (in
concentrated locations, of course) is exciting -- see
[http://techtowndetroit.org/](http://techtowndetroit.org/). Granted, there are
certainly depressing and desolate areas of the city, but again that should be
expected for a city that has seen massive emigration and decreased revenue. I
am optimistic about the future of Detroit.

~~~
fennecfoxen
There are a lot of differences between Detroit and a real emerging market. For
one, higher minimum wages. For another, additional environmental and labor
regulations (and while some of this may benefit society and some of it may
not, _much_ of it probably results in increased compliance costs.) For a
third, a 41% corporate income tax rate (35% US + 6% Michigan, according to
casual internet search).

If you're going to pay the very high price of doing business in the US, it
might be a better plan to locate yourself somewhere a little less wrecked
where it actually buys you something.

~~~
freehunter
That's why the title say " _America 's_ emerging market", not "the best
emerging market ever". You're commenting on an article called America's
emerging market and complaining about the fact that America's emerging market
is in America.

Think about it.

~~~
gradstudent
Emerging suggests positive change currently and into the future. The only
positive I can see from the story is cheap real-estate?

There's no indicator, in the article at least, that anything is happening in
Detroit to turn around job prospects since the car industry keeled over. So
you wouldn't go there for work. Also, according to protonfish, Detroit has
terrible infrastructure and sounds like a shitty place to live. So you
wouldn't go there for the lifestyle.

All of which leaves me wondering: what's so great about Detroit that it should
be considered an emerging market?

~~~
personZ
Aside from the Detroit car industry doing quite well, I have to comment on -

"Also, according to protonfish, Detroit has terrible infrastructure and sounds
like a shitty place to live."

Just to contrast here, protonfish questions the motives of a billionaire who
has moved thousands of his own employees, and made significant investments, in
downtown Detroit. A man who, despite the financial capacity to live anywhere
in the world, lives in Detroit. Invests in Detroit. Believes in Detroit.

Isn't that an incredible contrast? On the one hand you have someone taking
strong actions, and on the other you have someone posting a comment on a
message board. And you believe the guy posting on a message board?

I doubt protonfish knows anything about Detroit beyond some ruin porn they saw
on a Reddit post.

~~~
freehunter
Hell, I bought my car because it was made in Detroit (I was born and raised in
Michigan). 'Imported from Detroit' is a hell of a marketing message for
Fiat/Chrysler to make.

------
infinitebattery
The Madison Block[1] has a lot to do with the growth startup-wise in Downtown
Detroit. Also, there are more and more meetups going on. For example, Detroit
Soup[2] is a growing event and calls people to join, pay $5 for soup, and vote
on a project that will benefit the city (people present their projects). Even
MHacks, the premier college hackathon run by students from the University of
Michigan, was held in the Quicken Loans headquarters this spring. I have also
been to a few meetups such as one from the Detroit NodeJS group, and the
Detroit Drones group- the meetup groups are active and growing.

The city has had its ups and downs, but things are on the rise. Take it from
someone who has lived near the city for 17 years. I think there are a lot of
assumptions about Detroit, but there are a few things that are true: We have a
14.5% unemployment rate, a post industrial culture (culture of employees
expecting to work for the Big Three immediately, instead of a culture of
entrepreneurs), a financial problem, and poor Detroit schools (however the
schools in suburbs are much better).

I think that the combination of a lot of opportunity, and recent support from
people like Dan Gilbert gave Detroit a huge start with the Madison Block, and
that is the reason that people look at Detroit and what is happening in the
city now.

1\. [http://www.madisonblock.com/](http://www.madisonblock.com/)

2\. [http://detroitsoup.com/](http://detroitsoup.com/)

------
jngreenlee
Is there a PR firm behind the effort to make stories about Detroit appear here
from time to time, or is it actually that compelling of a city-story?

I have to think that there are many US cities equal to or superior to Detroit
in just about any balance of livability metrics one could produce, including
cost.

Very abstractly speaking, I can't even see it being a local maxima for any
particular basket of criteria...help?

~~~
graeme
People find Detroit interesting because it was once a leading city, and then
feel into a deep decline.

People like stories of rise, fall and rise again. A city that is merely
"better than Detroit" is not particularly interesting.

The anchoring bias is certainly at play here. I imagine others contribute as
well.

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anchoring](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anchoring)

People also are interesting in the potential of Detroit. Detroit was founded
where it was because it is on a river and the Great Lakes. It has good
farmland (I'm guessing on that point). It is amidst other major cities. It has
history.

So if Detroit recovers, there is a natural support structure around it that
will make it an interesting city.

~~~
kelukelugames
When was the last time Detriot was a leading city? Early 90s to late 80s? I'm
surprised most people on here are old enough to remember that.

------
olegious
I visited Detroit for the first time this past weekend, I was surprised by how
much I enjoyed it- beautiful, clean downtown area (much cleaner than SF), a
very lively art scene (many artists ARE moving there for the cheap rent), many
new bars and restaurants, a growing community of people that care and want to
see the city improve.

~~~
mikestew
If you just visited the downtown area, some would argue that you didn't see
the "real" Detroit. I might be one to make that argument had I been to Detroit
in the last 15 years. Tell you what, could you do me a favor and catch a bus
up to around 6 Mile Road and Woodward Ave. and let me know how things are
looking? :-)

(Seriously, though, unless Detroit has undergone some hard-core gentrification
in the last decade, please don't do that.)

~~~
olegious
I visited the abandoned neighborhoods as well and saw some terrible blight and
impoverished areas- my point is that as an outsider, that's all you expect
from Detroit, which is only part of the picture.

------
cylinder
Article cites cheap rent as a reason businesses are flocking there, but I
don't buy it.

Houston's downtown, which has excellent office stock and is in the center of
an _exponentially_ stronger economy, has median rents at about $25 per square
foot. Detroit's CBD median is $23 per square foot.

Plenty of cheap office space all around this country so I reject that this is
the reason.

~~~
bilbo0s
Heh...

Visit Downtown Houston... then compare it to Downtown Detroit... I think you
would rather be in Downtown Detroit.

I live behind the gates on Sunset... and I'm sitting in the Museum District as
I type this. So don't misunderstand me... there are a lot of nice places
inside the 610 in Houston. Downtown is not one of them however.

I'm a Houston guy... but I have to say... if you ever actually visit Downtown
Detroit, you will find it is MUCH more clean and attractive than Downtown
Houston. It was a visit to Detroit that made a lot of people around here kick
in to redo or demolish a lot of the eyesore abandoned towers in Downtown
Houston. There are just too many of these abandoned buildings in Houston's
Downtown right now... so it's slow going.

~~~
cylinder
Well fair enough. Houston's downtown is pretty boring but not too much blight
although that abandoned Days Inn needs to go. My point was just that downtown
Houston is the center of a much stronger and larger economic area.

------
MichaelApproved
One of the big problems with Detroit is that it's missing people to pay taxes
into the system. That means the remaining people have to pay higher share of
taxes for infrastructure that's supposed to support far more people.

A solution could be asking immigrants to live there and giving them an
accelerated citizenship schedule. If they live in Detroit for X years, they
qualify to become citizens. That'll bring an influx of new people who will pay
taxes, start new businesses and work at all levels of the economy.

~~~
bilbo0s
I think this is the same as the idea of the Governor and the President. There
are a lot of issues with it, but the main one I see is the jobs issue.

Typically, immigrants move to places where jobs are plentiful. With a program
like this, you are moving immigrants to a place, and then ASSUMING that jobs
will follow. I'm not sure it works like this. I think places like San Fran,
Chicago and Boston for instance, all draw a lot of immigrants because there
are a large number of open jobs in these places. Historically speaking...
setting up immigrant neighborhoods in the absence of jobs has proven to be a
bad idea.

If you have to use governmental incentives, and I'm not saying you do, but if
you are going to use governmental incentives... I think a BETTER approach
would be to give the incentives to companies and startups. If companies and
startups come to Detroit, then people will follow to fill any jobs these
enterprises create. I don't think you need to put forth more governmental
incentives to INDIVIDUALS to live in Detroit. (In fact, I think that's been a
big problem in Detroit in recent history).

If you want healthy growth... it really does need to be predicated on a
diverse and vibrant private sector.

Now if you are absolutely bent on providing incentives to individuals, then
Detroit should provide the incentives to recent college grads, or other young
people to come to Detroit to try to make a go of a startup. Everything from
free healthcare to nearly-free office space in some of the many available
buildings just outside the development zones, (or even inside of the
zones???), could be offered to them on a first come first served basis. Such
an offer would, I think, be well received by today's young people given the
troubles they are experiencing in the job market.

~~~
MichaelApproved
Great reply, thanks.

With regards to _" setting up immigrant neighborhoods in the absence of jobs
has proven to be a bad idea."_ what's an example of this? I'm curious about
what's been tried in the past.

------
tim333
>Many emerging-market cities, from Istanbul to Lagos to Mumbai, share similar
characteristics, good and bad.

hmm... Istanbul, Lagos and Mumbai are each the largest city and main
commercial centres for large developing countries. Detroit less so.

------
burgers
I'm just not sure how Detroit ever comes back as any type of manufacturing /
industrial center in the NAFTA era.

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canada%E2%80%93United_States_Au...](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canada%E2%80%93United_States_Automotive_Products_Agreement)

There is no longer any real benefit to dealing with the additional expense of
the weather issues with current trade agreements. Add to that the continuing
expansion of contract manufacturing in Mexico. It just doesn't make sense for
companies compared to Texas, Alabama, Mississippi etc.

It's a great story, but I just don't see how it is possible beyond a small
boutique city center for special cases.

------
sgt
So is it a good time to start investing in property in Detroit?

~~~
Shivetya
doubtful, even if they rename it Delta City.

This piece came across as a feel good piece, if anything its a familiar story.
Town goes down the tubes, yuppies move in and renovate old housing and such
pushing what few remaining stragglers there are left out and help recreate a
few revitalized islands amongst the rest. Usually led by a few strong business
interest who promote the idea to get further concessions and good will all the
while the decaying neighborhoods on the perimeter of these areas just stagnate

~~~
mwfunk
That sounds...great? You just described urban renewal. It's got to start
somewhere, it's not going to happen all at once all over the city.

~~~
Shivetya
urban renewal does sound great until you realize the only people who suffer
are those who are already suffering. So you have depressed prices which means
large swaths of property can be bought out on the cheap. Then those areas get
developed and local property values increase. However, instead of buying out
the dieing islands of poor they are driven out either through increased taxes,
zoning, or imminent domain seizures, which turn the property over to the very
same people who would not buy it when they know government will take it for
them

