
Ask HN: What should I do as a forever alone software engineer? - lonelythrowaway
I don&#x27;t really know how to form any sort of relationship with a girl. I&#x27;ve tried dating sites with little luck, and even when I meet someone I have trouble forming any sort of connection. I desperately long for some sort of emotional intimacy with someone. I feel existentially lonely, and sometimes I can&#x27;t even function and get trapped in depression.<p>I&#x27;ve tried meditation, some therapy, and other things, but I never seem to go beyond this. I&#x27;ve tried to just focus on programming and ignore my other troubles, but that only works for a time. How can I move beyond this?
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xenadu02
This was a process I started about 10 years ago but I'm married with two kids
so I'd say it was successful.

I decided that if I were going to attract someone I had to be comfortable with
myself. I did an honest appraisal and there were some things I didn't like, so
I focused on myself for a while. I lost weight, started dressing better, and
went out to more meetups, parties, etc. At first I used alcohol to help me
loosen up and I practiced talking to people. It was difficult at first but I
learned how to hold longer and more interesting conversations and without
relying on booze or any other crutches.

I also practiced "fake it until you make it". I recited to myself all the
awesome things about me and started taking pride in who I was, and in my
newfound personal growth.

I expressly forbade myself from attempting to get a girl's phone number or
have any kind of relationship, even just one time sex. With all the pressure
off I found it easier and easier to not care what other people thought and
just be myself. I would go out and talk to anyone in any situation and leave
them with a smile. Every interaction was a learning opportunity.

The more confident I became the more people wanted to be my friend and hang
around me. I made several women friends and one of them introduced me to my
wife.

It seems like a cliche but it is true: the more you desperate you are to have
a relationship the less likely anyone will want to have one with you. When you
learn how to accept yourself and be OK with being alone that confidence is
attractive.

------
jfolkins
Volunteer. Volunteer. Volunteer.

Church, homeless shelter, camp counselor, big brother program, soccer, etc. I
signed up and helped out wherever I could. WHY? Because I suspected that I'd
be more likely to find a partner who wasn't into themselves.

If you can qualify your potential partner as someone who is willing to
sacrifice and able to love others, that is a good signal that they are willing
to humble themselves to love you. And let me say, you'll need it. For a
relationship to survive it will take sacrifice, humbleness, and commitment.
Because life dishes out some serious bullshit.

When my brother suddenly passed away I'd have easily fallen into drugs. I
didn't really want to live because my depression was so deep. My wife stuck it
out with me. She'd never admit it, but she knows that she is the one for me.
Hands down. And she didn't have to dominate me. She loved me when I hated
myself. She said I was valuable when I couldn't find any. I love her so much
for that.

So my advice? Step outside yourself and volunteer. And don't go seeking a
partner. Just go and love other people. Love those who are weaker than you.
Honor those who are needy and easily exploited. When you do that, people will
know. They'll see.

I can't promise a relationship (though those who have followed my advice tend
to find one) but I can promise that if you approach it honestly, you will no
longer feel alone. And that at least will be a start to solving your
loneliness problem.

Best of luck!

~~~
plugger
Agreed 100%. Another place to consider is soup kitchens. But as jfolkins
points out volunteering your time to help others is very beneficial personally
and that makes you more attractive to others. The fact that you're sacrificing
your own personal time to help others is very attractive to perspective
partners. Not only that, but the dividends you personally collect from helping
others will benefit you immensely socially regardless of if it directly
delivers a life partner.

First off, you'll realise despite your less than ideal situation that you have
a life that's demonstrably better than the people you're helping. Not in a
"I'm better than you" way but in a "I've got a lot to be thankful for" way.
Not having a partner pales in comparison to struggling for food and shelter.
This will give you more perspective on your own life and allow you to more
honestly recognise how good you have things.

The truth is that with a more positive view on your own life you will be more
attractive to others from both a friendship and relationship perspective. It's
not a light switch situation, you won't wake up tomorrow and be a different
person after volunteering once. But given time a life with volunteering with
become your new normal. If you didn't have new friends and possibly a
perspective romantic interest by then I'd be surprised. Still, give it time.

And in the end, even if you don't find a partner out of it you can hold your
head high as you've helped a lot of people in the process. But in all honesty,
I suspect that you'll find the changes in you that are derived from regularly
helping those less fortunate than you will in fact make you a more attractive
perspective partner to the opposite sex.

Good luck!

------
mythrowaway01
I'm exactly in your situation.

I was overweight so I hit the gym properly (cardio three times a week with a
clear goal and milestones, changed my diet, sleep, habits, etc.) and lost
nearly fifty pounds.

I changed my wardrobe completely because a. I had lost so much weight that
almost everything I had was too loose and b. I wanted to refresh my "nerdy"
wardrobe.

I put myself out there. I signed up and attended multiple meetups, including
some specifically related to meeting potential romantic partners (casual
gatherings, setup lunches, etc.) I tried to be social and attended more events
outside my comfort zone where I would be near other people.

I tried OKCupid and Tinder. I created genuine, honest, complete profiles. I
even had my photos professionally taken specifically for social
networking/dating purposes (they are not the standard business portraits). I
sent short, to-the-point messages to people I genuinely thought would be good
potential matches.

I did all of this but none of it has worked. I'm lonelier than ever. At this
point I've put more time and effort in this endeavor than anything else in my
life, except I have absolutely nothing to show for it other than my
loneliness.

From one forever-alone programmer to another: I sympathize, brother. There is
nothing I understand in life more than this feeling. Hang in there, friend. I
don't know if anything is going change for either one of us, but if knowing
that you aren't the only one in this situations helps in the slightest, I hope
this is helpful.

------
pbuzbee
1) Put yourself out there. Get involved in activities you care about and try
to meet people. Network through your friends and family. Take a chance and ask
potential partners out. You will never get anywhere if you don't try.

2) Build friendships before looking for a relationship. It's generally much
easier to find friends than a partner. A relationship isn't the solution to
loneliness -- friends are.

3) Be someone people want to date. Find some interesting hobbies. Identify
your flaws and work on fixing them.

4) Set realistic expectations. Your mental idea of what it will be like to
have a steady partner is a lot different than what it's really like, so don't
filter out potential partners too soon. Give things a change to develop.

------
sotai
I think first off you need to accept where you are, it is completely fine to
be where you are. You are not inherently deficient in any way. If you can be
okay with this, others can too. Now, this means practicing awareness of your
own behavior and thought and just notice when you start doing something that
is driven by some kind of underlying shame that you are not 'enough' in some
way (and also just the basic need to be loved). If you can notice it happening
you can also practice making a choice of letting it go.

Say you're in a situation where people are talking about something you are
completely inexperienced in. Many a nerd (myself included) will have kind of
like a knee-jerk reaction and either bring up learned information about said
area and try to "win" by knowing the most, feel a sense of inadequacy which
makes you put up a front of "fake it til you make it". If you notice this, you
can just give up this fight of trying to "be more" than you are. Be open, say
you have to experience, ask what others experience is, use your strength of
being naturally inquiring and curious! (Also just rejoice in how liberating it
is to not try and uphold a fantasy image).

Once you get going with this more and more situations will present themselves
where you suddenly notice that you're not letting yourself be. They can be
anything for old hiccups to judging others. Each one is a victory and soon you
will start feeling free, free to engage in random social encounters because
you actually don't have anything to loose, you don't have to protect a fragile
sense of self from being exposed as the fake that it was. This is how I learnt
to be open to life in the for me newfound sense of the saying. There's a lot
of good books on this if it is something that interests you. If it isn't you
shouldn't read them :D

Now, all this is from my experience, and I don't really know you. I've just
assembled my own prototype version of your personality from friends who've
experienced similar situations.

Also: Once you go into a relationship, don't do it as a project to win. Make
sure to be alert towards your own feelings.

------
nicholas73
There's the old saying - boxing matches are won in the gym, not the ring.

You'll have to work on understanding other people and their needs, and make
yourself have the attributes that make a good partner.

There is something of a chicken and egg here. Before I had a girlfriend, I
understood girls poorly. Now I think I'm not so bad. From being with my
girlfriend so long, I might have an easier time talking to girls now than
guys. It's really just a learning curve.

The thing to do would be to learn without the pressure, ie non-dating
relationships like female friends or family. They'd be able to answer you
better than HN!

------
android521
You can try online sites but don't expect much from it. It is a race to the
bottom (best looking guy wins).

It is harder to change personality but easier to change your look like hair
style, how to dress etc. These things shouldn't matter much but they do matter
for first impressions.

You need to to appear confident. You need to not afraid of rejections. Just
ask girls out.

Travel might help too.

Also, If you are white and American, it is so easy to get girls to be
interested in you in other parts of the world like Asia.(hate to admit it.but
it is true) You don't even need to try that much.

~~~
cko
Agree with improving first impressions. Being in decent shape + clean haircut
+ clean dress + smelling clean are very important. Those things are
universally recommended.

Besides those things, read a lot of books / watch Youtube videos on attracting
women. Some are obnoxious and border on misogyny, but even those materials
have teaching points.

------
namuol
If you're depressed, worry about yourself first and foremost. In other words,
you don't need a partner to be "happy" (i.e. not depressed), believe me.

Make sure your basic needs are taken care of:

\- In general: Stay busy.

\- Socialize (this could mean dating, hobbies, sports, etc.)

\- Exercise (you'll feel better physically, and more confident)

\- Get enough good sleep

\- Consider therapy (really!) if the depression is incessant

All that said, here are some actionable things that might help you meet
someone:

Pick up a sport/outdoor hobby. Go with a friend or two. Make more friends.

Try OKCupid. YMMV, but the ability to go into great detail has lead me to way
fewer "false positives" than some other more popular, somewhat more
superficial alternatives...

Finally, go on more dates.

No, even more dates. Go on one a week, if you can. It might sound crazy (or
impossible), but it'll help, I promise.

Make the most of it; you'll learn more about what you actually want from a
partner, and if you're friendly and positive you'll probably enjoy the
socializing even if things don't work out, romantically.

As far as "how to act around women"; just be yourself. Be open about what
you're looking for and how you feel about dating. Sure, some people might be
put off by this, but the sort of person you want to attract will appreciate
your honesty and you'll be able to connect a lot more easily if all your cards
are on the table.

It'll be like night and day when you _do_ connect with someone. When this
happens, don't panic: just say how you feel. You wont scare away anyone who
feels remotely the same.

------
JesseAldridge
Forget girls and focus on building basic social skills. Join a club or
something. Like any other skill you will suck at it at first and then get
better with learning and practice. Being introverted doesn't mean you're
incapable of interacting with other people, it just means you have to push
yourself to get good at it.

------
_dating
I recommend one dating coach, Doc Love [0]. Read a few of his articles, listen
to a few podcasts (episode 12 is a radio interview and great introduction to
his approach [1]), and listen to this week's radio show on Wednesday/Thursday
(depending on your timezone). Call in if you have a specific question.

[0] [http://doclove.com](http://doclove.com)

[1] [http://www.doclove.com/2016/07/02/dwp-012-doc-on-the-
outlaw-...](http://www.doclove.com/2016/07/02/dwp-012-doc-on-the-outlaw-dave-
show-an-intro-to-his-principles-why-to-never-accept-a-maybe-date/)

Then think and decide for yourself if the way he speaks makes sense.

Also, the way you describe your situation is full of vagueness that makes it
hard to give specific advice. This might also be revealing of a lack of
clarity in your thinking. You might benefit from improving that. E.g. "trouble
forming any sort of connection" \-- _any_ sort? You could slap a girl's butt,
and there you go, instant connection right there.

But what you probably mean by 'connection' is mutual interest. So you like
her, and she likes you. First, if you don't like her, then who cares? There's
no problem for you to resolve here. You move on to the next one.

So the real problem is HER (lack of) interest in you. The problem of getting a
girl to like you. Are you a likeable guy? Work on that. Two overlapping
aspects to work on:

1\. cultivating virtues that women find attractive 2\. your sales pitch, your
presentation, and getting yourself out there

Nothing worthwhile is easy.

------
hindsightbias
Not to make light of your individual plight, but it's the new normal for the
world:

"TOKYO — A survey conducted by the National Institute of Population and Social
Security Research revealed that 61.4% of single men aged 18-34 do not have a
girlfriend and that 49% of single women in the same age range do not have a
boyfriend."

50% of women under 34 in the US are single now. Half of them have never
married and the other half are divorced. Younger milles don't even think of
dating - you just go to tinder and there's nothing tender about it.

When you develop, you have a plan and strategy. You have to learn new
languages and tools. Social, physical and mental self-improvement require the
same. Anybody who is trying is going to have a leg-up on the competition.

Take a language class at the local CC, travel. Volunteer as a docent at the
Symphony. I have a teenage relative who couldn't function outside of a tinder
hookup. He went to Europe alone for a month this summer stayed in hostels. He
met scads of people, made int'l friends and is far more confident in himself
now.

~~~
nicolashahn
"49% of single women"

This means single as in marital status. I'm guessing a lot of women are
married by age 34. Just being pedantic.

------
supergetting
1\. I'm a single guy in late 20s. 2\. I don't get out much. 3\. Always focused
on work. 4\. On computer all the time day and night more than 12hrs every day.
5\. I went through clinical depression in the past, I don't feel depressed
anymore but sometimes get lonely. 6\. Tried online dating sites, but never
made any connections. 7\. Not very social, I'm quiet, and am an introvert.

Things that keep me going: 1\. Family. 2\. Occasional get-together with old
friends. 3\. Science and technology and the fact that I exist and can
experience the things that I can feel with my physical senses. 4\. Hiking and
hobbies that require physical activity. 5\. I'm not religious, but sometimes
visiting local churches to genuinely get to know new people helps too.

Something that I should look into: Fashion. Skinny jeans LOL. cool socks and
hair styling. Putting myself out there where there are girls.

------
pass_the_salt22
I find that my social skills come and go with practice. If I spend long days
or weeks programming then the skills get rusty and I find it difficult to
interact with people. Maybe trying getting out there and spending time with
people (at a sports club/meet up/board games, whatever you enjoy). Read some
novels (there was a study that suggested humans learn social skills from
reading about human interactions in books). I'm not suggesting you're not
sociable already, just that forming a connection might be easier if you feel
confident socialising generally. Connections with others are based on honesty,
so make sure you're yourself. Also...remember to love yourself! Good luck :)

------
throwawayway2
I'm at my early 30s, and I finally had a relationship this year. but after few
months in this relationship, I started to miss "lonely" days. my altitude now
is rather being alone than being in an imperfect relationship. I listed all
things made me happy and I care most, including understanding new computer
science theory, being able to draw and play instruments or starting a company.
being alone lets me focus on these things and polish myself.

I start to think that relationship might not be an necessity of life. I also
don't have the incentive to have kids.

~~~
lonelythrowaway
So you just have shitty relationship? If you had a better relationship would
it be different? The idea is not find a relationship at all costs, but to find
a good relationship.

------
saintzozo
You should lobby hard for more even gender balances in the workplace. Publish
blog posts, send out tweets, talk about it at the pub, etc.

------
n00b101
Learn how to sail.

* It is generally impossible to sail a boat "single-handed" (alone), you always need a crew, so sailors are forced to socialize. People who own sailboats are perpetually trying to find people who will help crew a boat with them, so they are always willing to make new friends.

* Crewing on a sailboat (especially during a race) teaches you how to work in a team, how to follow orders from people, how to be coachable, etc. This helps build social skills.

* Sailing puts people together face-to-face for several hours, there is nowhere to leave, everyone can't be staring into their phones (since they all have a job to do), and you might not even have a cell phone signal. This makes it easy to socialize and make new friends.

* Sailing gives you something in common with others to talk about, which helps build relationships and make friends. Sailors are very passionate about sailing, sailing is a very involved sport, and sailors love to talk for hours about all aspects of sailing. So when you are with fellow sailors, you always have something to talk about and stories to share, that are completely unrelated to your work life.

* Sailing is a highly knowledge-based activity. You have to know how to tie different types of knots, you have to learn a whole vocabulary of sailing terms, you have to know how to maintain an engine, how to read nautical maps and navigate, how to operate on analog and digital radio and sattelite communications (HAM radio can be subset hobby of sailing), how aerodynamics work (lift/drag on sails), how weather patterns work, how the "rules of the road" work on the water, how to dock and moor a boat, how to do various kinds of emergency "MacGyver" repairs on a boat while on the water, you have to know about all the different kinds of sailboats, sails and rigs, you need to know safety, surival and rescue skills, how to plan and provision for a long trip, you have know the rules of racing and different racing tactics, you can learn about celestial navigation (how to navigate using the stars), you learn about different islands and destinations where people go to sail, you can learn about all kinds of software that is used for competitive sailing (to plan optimal routes based on real-time wind patterns), you can learn about naval architecture (how boats are designed), you can build your own boat, you can learn how to repair and make sails, you can learn about state-of-the-art computational fluid dynamics designs for sails and vessels, you can read about the history of sailing, you can follow different competitive sailing sport events (America's Cup, Fastnet, Olympics, etc), you can learn about different building materials used in boats (wood, fiber class, carbon fiber, etc), you can learn how to cook in a galley, how to climb a mast, you can pursue sailing "fashions" (what to wear to look good while sailing), etc. It is really a world and a culture unto itself.

* You will literally be part of a social club. Sailing clubs hold all kinds of social events. It is highly entertaining, everyone is friendly and willing to make friends - much more so than meeting strangers at a bar or a nightclub.

* You get to be out in nature when you are sailing. You get to see beautiful sights of nature and city skylines, that most people do not experience. Sailboats are powered by the wind, which means that they are very quiet (no noisy engine running), so it is a very serene experience and helps you relax and connect with nature. You might sail the oceans under the night sky where you can see the spectacular show of stars in the night sky.

* A lot of people like to "party" on sailboats, when they are docked for the day. It's much better than the bar or nightclub.

* Sailboats are vehicles. That means you can go on trips with them. That could be a trip a few hours away, to another port in your locality, or it could be crossing oceans and sailing through exotic islands that most people never get to visit. Experiencing this with others can build lifelong friendships.

* Sailing is for people of all ages and genders. There are plenty of women who love to sail. Some of them like to ride on boats and wear bikinis ... When you are young, you might meet a girl this way. If you have children, you can take them on sailing vacations. When you are old and you retire, you will have something to do with your spare time.

* Contrary to popular opinion, you don't need to be rich to sail. Some community sailing clubs or local colleges let you be a member for a small monthly fee, and freely use their boats. At the fancier sailing clubs, you do need to know a member who owns a boat, but you will find mailing lists for people who want to sign up to crew on other people's boats during race nights.

* I could go on, but I'll stop here.

~~~
visarga
Wow. Who would have thought?

------
xiphias
Go to the gym, get a trainer at least for the first few times. After 5 days a
week, 3 months of 1.5 hour training you will look different, and that's what
matters most in dating. New fitting clothes are important as well (though your
size will change a lot).

You can look at goodlookingloser.com as well (all other ,,PUA'' sites are BS),
but any guy in the gym can help you get started on your looks.

~~~
drinchev
I second this comment. Lot's of things in my life improved after I spend time
improving my body-look & social-skills.

Gym also increase the level of testosterone, which WILL change the way you
feel, not only the way you look.

------
cureyourhead
Update your perspective.

It's women not girls.

And stop thinking of yourself as some sort of exception. You are not. And that
notion is making an artificial distance between you and others.

You are just another human. Your experience and your place on the bell curve
is neither exceptional nor terrible.

Loneliness and vulnerability are Universal. They form some of the basis of
your connection with others. Stop trying to avoid them.

