
America Is Regressing into a Developing Nation for Most People - monsieurpng
https://www.ineteconomics.org/perspectives/blog/america-is-regressing-into-a-developing-nation-for-most-people
======
rayiner
> The FTE citizens rarely visit the country where the other 80 percent of
> Americans live: the low-wage sector.

This assertion is completely unsupported, and as it turns out wrong:
[https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2017/06/05/through-
an-...](https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2017/06/05/through-an-american-
lens-western-europes-middle-classes-appear-smaller).

> Overall, regardless of how middle class fortunes are analyzed, the material
> standard of living in the U.S. is estimated to be better than in most
> Western European countries examined.

The median disposable household income in the US is $60,000, versus $44,000 in
France. That’s the median—it’s not skewed up by the very high incomes at the
top. (Even that requires some adjustment. The median age in the US is 38,
versus say 47 for Germany. The median German is at the top of their lifetime
compensation curve, the median American is not there yet.)

At least in Maryland, California, etc., at that income level, a family
qualifies for ACA subsidies that limit health insurance premiums to 8-10% of
income, comparable to the health insurance payroll taxes in many european
countries.

There is an attempt to popularize the idea that in the US it’s the top
breaking away from everyone else, and that doesn’t happen in Europe. If you
dig into the data, where the US diverges the most noticeably is actually the
bottom 10-20%. And that’s a direct result of the middle 70%. The pay far lower
taxes than in Europe, which funds a much less generous welfare state.

~~~
the_mitsuhiko
> The median disposable household income in the US is $60,000, versus $44,000
> in France.

I don’t think median disposable incomes are very comparable across countries
because of what people chose or have to use this money for.

~~~
dx87
If it's disposable income, it doesn't matter if you put it in a pile and set
it on fire, or choose to do home renovations. The fact that it's disposable
means that it's left over after all of your necessities are taken care of.

~~~
masklinn
No, the disposable income is just income after taxes. You're thinking
discretionary income.

Which would probably a better point of comparison as disposable income is
greatly skewed by _how_ necessities are taken care of (aka how much is handled
by the state — and thus through taxes — versus left to the individual).

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rmah
Having spent my early youth in a "developing nation", this is laughable.

~~~
yters
Indeed, I grew up in a 'developing nation' that was quite livable. Not
starving children in the streets. Even then, no where near the US standard of
living. Small island, no running water, ate fish caught from the sea,
electricity for 2 hours on Friday, one or two small trucks, transportation was
on handmade fishing boats built from the palm trees.

I only visited the US a few times in my childhood, and it stood out like a
fairytale land in my dreams. Today, the standard of living in the US is even
more advanced than when I was a child 30 years ago. The US is still a mythic
land of legend for most of the world today.

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johnny313
The title may be a bit overstated, but I think the separation between low
income working class people and those in more high paying professional jobs is
pretty real. I grew up in a rural area, paid for college by serving in the
military, then hustled my way into tech (like lots of others). Very few of my
friends from high school or the military have had similar luck getting a
stable job. When I talk to my current tech coworkers about anything that was
very normal as a child (hunting, owning guns, working 20-30hrs a week after
school, etc) - its like we are from different planets.

This was on PBS a while back, I think it gets at some of the differences
pretty well: [https://www.pbs.org/newshour/economy/do-you-live-in-a-
bubble...](https://www.pbs.org/newshour/economy/do-you-live-in-a-bubble-a-
quiz-2)

~~~
illumin8
Similar background (minus the military), and I agree the differences are
staggering, but the nice thing about the US is that a poor kid actually can do
this, rise from poverty to upper-middle class in a single generation.

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threwawasy1228
This has sure been my experience. I graduated with a CS degree from a typical
state school in May, with a couple internships under my belt, and have only
had job offers so far have been less than half what is reported to be the
median pay. Most places don't respond at all even to decline, I'm given no
indication many times that they read my resume / cover letter.

Is this what a 'industry that can't fill its positions' looks like? Is this
what unemployment being 'too low!' looks like? All these indicators seem
fraudulent, and the facts on the ground seem more akin to what this author is
postulating. It is hard to imagine what the economy used to be like at its
peak, where one could allegedly find a reasonable job at the median pay-rate
for the industry, when you are pretty much qualified, without applying to
several hundred places.

~~~
pbourke
There are several on-ramps to higher paying positions in the industry:

Location - the tier 1 or 2 metro areas will have more jobs available and they
will pay much more than areas with lower demand.

Skills - either really hot (today, JS/fullstack I suppose) or really niche
(know COBOL?) skills will boost your chances at landing a good high paying job
early in your career.

Credentials - anything with gatekeeping such as a security clearance or tons
of required certs will tend to pay well.

There are probably others. Networking is a great way to get past HR
goalkeeping and connect with people who are one or two degrees away from a
hiring manager. Go to meetups!

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bcp2384
I agree there's a phenomenon happening here and elsewhere where being "normal"
doesn't cut it anymore, meaning if you're just an average person of average
intelligence you have it harder now than someone in your shoes 40 years ago to
live a good life. OTOH, if you're extraordinary in some way, and smart enough
to know how to capitalize on it, you're in a much better position now than
someone who was equally extraordinary a few decades ago.

~~~
pron
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veil_of_ignorance](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veil_of_ignorance)

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adrianN
To me, the most important characteristic of a developing nation is widespread
corruption down to the lowest levels. I don't mean just politicians being
bought by lobbyists, that happens everywhere, but when you have to bribe every
public official to get anything done, or have to bribe doctors in hospitals
before they even look at you. Is this the case for most people in America? I
didn't have that impression when I visited.

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cheschire
Title should say 2017

~~~
HenryBemis
Title should also say "Citizens/inhabitants of the United States of America".
America is a continent (also Africa, Asia, Europe, Oceania - listed in
alphabetical order)(not counting the N/S Poles). Americans are the people who
live in said continent. I also think we gave the website the HN-kiss-of-death
:)

~~~
asaph
No reasonable person interprets "America" to mean the "continent of America".
In fact, there is no continent called "America". There is only "North America"
and "South America", which are 2 distinctly different continents. And within
North America, which contains the US, Canada and Mexico, neither people in
Canada, nor Mexico consider themselves to be "American" or within "America".

~~~
DanBC
> In fact there is no continent called "America". There is only "North
> America" and "South America", which are 2 distinctly different continents.

...in English.

~~~
asaph
Fine. But that's the language of _this_ article and _this_ conversation
thread. No reasonable person would assume some other language is relevant in
this conversation.

~~~
DanBC
HN has an international audience and the subtleties of naming the country vs
the continent can be easy to miss.

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shrimpx
It's true that American infrastructure is terrible. I think the root cause is
political incompetence, especially at the state and city levels. Often the
money is there but gets squandered by people who cannot plan or are driven by
personal vendettas that don't correlate with the needs of the constituency.

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Karrot_Kream
The site seems to be struggling so I put a mirror on IPFS
[https://ipfs.io/ipfs/Qmbw1uWRag96q189CESdoz1DGU3QLxovQmXFv7M...](https://ipfs.io/ipfs/Qmbw1uWRag96q189CESdoz1DGU3QLxovQmXFv7Mvb5A4UN)

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api
I've been talking about the decline of the interior for a decade or more, and
listening to politicians and academics on both the left and the right (who
mostly live on the coasts) deny it.

If nothing is done about this we are going to get someone way worse than
Trump. Whether it's a right or left totalitarian probably depends on which
side can field a compelling demagogue first. Ultimately the politics won't
matter much as long as pitchforks are handed out.

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pooya13
> The primary goal of the richest members of the high-income sector is to
> lower taxes.

I would add a qualifier here, lower taxes _for themselves_. The Wall Street
had no problem taking handouts from big government in 2008 made possible by
taxes.

~~~
ryacko
Those weren't from taxes, that money was lent from the central bank, to the
central bank, to be further lent to Federal Reserve member banks, and some
foreign banks as well.

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ryanmarsh
Not one graph in an article about an economic issue which the author claims
affects most people? Hrmm.

~~~
username444
I only got 4-5 paragraphs in, but this is pointedly a story, not a piece of
documentation.

~~~
ryanmarsh
My bad, I thought it was journalism not opinion.

~~~
username444
No problem :)

There are multiple ways to get a point across. Some people respond well to
stories. Some people respond better to data.

Some people are helpful. Some people are condescending.

It's a wonderfully diverse world.

------
deogeo
> America’s underlying racism has a continuing distorting impact. A majority
> of the low-wage sector is white, with blacks and Latinos making up the other
> part, but politicians learned to talk as if the low-wage sector is mostly
> black because it allowed them to appeal to racial prejudice, which is useful
> in maintaining support for the structure of the dual economy — and hurting
> everyone in the low-wage sector. Temin notes that “the desire to preserve
> the inferior status of blacks has motivated policies against all members of
> the low-wage sector.”

Contrary to what this paragraph implies, this is a misperception that both
parties exploit. All too often does the left claim that white privilege lets
one go through life on easy-mode [1].

[1] [https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-
meter/statements/2016/mar...](https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-
meter/statements/2016/mar/07/bernie-sanders/bernie-sanders-wrong-say-when-
youre-white-you-dont/)

