

On the subject of disclosing your compensation - raganwald
http://raganwald.posterous.com/on-the-subject-of-disclosing-your-compensatio

======
gacba
I would go so far to say that if you use this technique and find a recruiter
doesn't want to deal with that, you've just found a great recruiter filter
mechanism. Move on to someone else who actually adds value.

Recruiters annoy the heck of out of me as a contractor: They claim all kinds
of value when in fact they have but one thing to add: they know someone
looking for a job. They add no other value to the equation (and in fact, often
detract by doing horrible buzzword matching analysis to put you in front of
someone). They don't necessarily know _quality_ employers, _good_ jobs, or
even _how to help get you hired_. They're like real estate agents: they merely
want the transaction to take place, regardless of the actual price. The
difference in commission for a house that sells at a "suggested market price"
and maybe, your ideal price of $10,000 higher is a lousy $400 to the agent.
It's not in their interest to push that with the buyer. It's in their interest
to make the transaction happen.

The same is 100% true of recruiters.

EDIT: Having dealt with many recruiters in the past, my experiences reflect
what I describe above. It's possible that a shining few exist out there that
do add value. If you're out there, for heaven's sake REPLY and tell us who you
are. This thread would give you a deep pool of talent for sure.

~~~
megamark16
My first instinct while reading your last sentence is "oh no, now we're going
to get spammed by crappy recruiters". Then it occurred to me that if a tech
recruiter is actively participating in Hacker News they are probably at least
a step above the crowd.

~~~
gacba
You'll also notice the complete lack of replies from recruiters thus far. :)

------
bluedevil2k
There's been a lot of talk about this lately, and I think I have another
vantage point on it. All this talk about "don't reveal your current salary",
"hide your current compensation" is totally relaying weakness to anyone you're
negotiating with. Take control of the negotiation! Be the confident person who
knows exactly what they want! (Even if you don't really know that).

Right now is a great time to be negotiating for salary compared to 20 years
ago - there are so many tools that give you an idea of what current pay ranges
are for any job. PayScale.com for example is one tool that gives you infinite
more information than people had 20 years ago. Use it!

When you apply to a job, you should already know what the salary range is
going to be. Negotiation is 90% preparation before the actual negotiation.
This is a huge part of it. When you apply, know exactly the range they'll be
offering.

When they ask you "What's your current salary" you give them the absolute very
top of the range you've found in your research (or even add another 10%). You
aim for their reservation point and set a high anchor point from which
negotiation can continue. Take control of the negotiation and own the process
yourself. Remember, nearly everyone on this site is a skilled employee who is
in demand right now.

~~~
raganwald
I applaud the spirit of your comment, namely that the idea is to take control.
My post is mostly aimed at dealing with people who want numbers as a screening
question before you get down to negotiating a specific offer.

If you're a top person in great demand, you ought to be able to take control
of the negotiation by saying either of the following:

a) My compensation for the past five years isn't the issue here, let's talk
about what I can do for you, or; b) My compensation for the past five years
has ranged from X to Y, but here's why I think Z is the right number for this
job in this company.

------
CodeMage
Great advice. It took me years to learn it on my own. One thing I would like
to add is there are times you have to clam up completely and refuse to give
out even a range. At one of the companies I worked for, they had a weird
policy of not hiring people if their new salary would exceed their old salary
by more than 20%. Now, I can understand some of the reasoning behind it, but I
personally find it detestable. The best policy in such a case is to either
pass (which in this case would have been a shame, because the job was good in
all other respects) or clam up and have them decide whether to hire you based
on your merits alone.

~~~
jemfinch
Can you explain some of the reasoning behind that policy, because I don't
understand it.

~~~
raganwald
Such rules are usually driven by HR, not by hiring managers. The hiring
manager's motivation is to get something done. Your compensation is a rounding
error on the revenues from a successful product or whatever it is you are
hired to create.

HR, on the other hand, exists to create a "system." One of the primary
properties of the system they are trying to create is predictability. If you
have a process of some sort, anybody ought to be able to put the same inputs
in and get the same outputs out.

Thus, they look for a good way to explain what you are offered. Capping it
based on your previous compensation is a nice, simple rule that fits well with
a process. Paying you some random amount based on how urgent your skills are
needed on a team is not a repeatable process.

In a weird way, although HR talk a good line about people and soft skills and
values and missions, they behave just like autistic programmers: They put
numbers and rules ahead of people and priorities.

------
ericb
I think if you have a feeling for what the range is, and you know for sure you
are in the top of it, disclosing it is good as it establishes your value, and
they are less likely to waste your time, or make a stab in the dark offer that
is too low and insulting.

------
yalurker
What if you are moving from a low cost area to a high cost area?

I just checked out an online cost-of-living calculator and my salary in Austin
would have to increase by 2.6x to have the same quality of life in Palo Alto.

How many HR types are going to realize that 50 in Austin is 100 in San Fran or
Manhattan?

~~~
rcoder
Any "HR type" who does their job well absolutely _will_ know how to do a cost-
of-living conversion, and should effectively screen and prepare candidates
armed with that knowledge.

It goes both ways, of course; less-savvy candidates might not know what
they're getting into, and can be offered what seems like a sizable salary bump
only to discover after arrival that they're worse-off in total.

------
thalur
How does this work out if you believe you are significantly under-compensated
at your current job (assuming it's the peak for the last five years)?

~~~
raganwald
Are you including ALL of the compensation in calculating "Y?" Let me help. I
currently work with Unspace Interactive. They're downtown. Most programming
jobs require a commute of some sort. What's my time worth? Let's pick $100 an
hour based on the fact that I recall paying some random contractor that exact
figure for some fun week-end moonlighting recently.

So if I save one hour a day because of Unspace's location, I'm going to add
$100 times 250 working days a year to Y, or $25,000 a year on top of
everything else (beverages, BBQs, whatever).

If that number is still significantly lower than the compensation you're
after, be up front: "My comp has ranged from X to Y, but I think I'm worth Z
to you because of a, b, and c."

Ultimately, every job interview boils down to explaining why Z is the right
number and why it's in the employer's best interests to pay Z. If you can't
explain that to an employer, you aren't going to get Z. I don't make these
rules up, it's economics in the small.

~~~
jqueryin
This yearly savings calculation (albeit an example) of $25k for Unspace is
based solely on your assumption that one hour less commute time correlates to
an additional work hour every day. While this may be sound for how to express
added value, I find it unreasonable to believe that most people would work an
extra hour simply because they live closer. Maybe I'm wrong.

In my case, I think what you _can_ do is to let them know just how hardcore
you are. If I tell my employer that I'll work on R&D and product development
in my spare time at home, they can easily get a ballpark of additional hours
worked and added value over Joe Schmoe. If I log an additional 10 hours a week
from home after work hours, that could equate to an additional 25% hours over
the standard 40. I understand alot of you may be putting in more than 40
hours, but that should also be part of your negotiation.

~~~
rcfox
> This yearly savings calculation (albeit an example) of $25k for Unspace is
> based solely on your assumption that one hour less commute time correlates
> to an additional work hour every day.

No, it accounts for time wasted, money spent on travel, stress due to traffic,
etc. Basically, it's how much you'd be willing to pay to _not_ have to
commute. It has nothing to do with additional working hours.

------
sshumaker
The reason hiring managers ask for your salary is because they want to know
what your expectations are. If you're not comfortable telling them your past
salary, just let them know your salary requirements.

------
Goladus
It doesn't matter so much what you tell them so long as you are willing to
reject a lowball offer and ask for more. If they are going to negotiate with
stupid tricks and use information you give them adversarially, feel free to
drag out the interview process at their expense. Once they make the offer
they've revealed their intention to hire you.

If they had made you a fair offer the first time around they wouldn't have to
worry.

------
SimonPStevens
This might work fine for contractors, but it's nonsense for permanent
employees.

5 years covers a range from my first graduate job to my current reasonably
good mid-level salary. If I gave that range to a recruiter I'd end up at a
bunch of interviews with companies all trying to offer me close to a graduate
salary.

~~~
raganwald
The context here is that a recruiter calls you and says, "Y Combinator is
looking for an Arc programmer to work on new versions of the language as well
as maintain the HN site. Please give me your resumé and your current salary."

You say, "Here's my resumé." The recruiter demands the salary, saying that
Paul won't interview anyone without it. My first advice is that you can just
say no. The sun will still shine, you'll find work elsewhere that you enjoy.

But if you really, really want to interview for the Arc job, the thesis of
this post is that giving the range is better than giving the salary at your
current job.

If the recruiter then tries to jam you into a job paying Ramen noodles because
five years ago that's what you were making working for a startup... I agree
that's annoying. Only you can decide whether that downside is unbearable.

~~~
SimonPStevens
I totally agree with your first step (say no).

Like you say though, with the range idea I suppose you have to balance the
likelihood of getting low offers. Personally, giving a range like this just
gives them a range to make their offers in, which will result in a lower offer
than my current salary every time (as my salary has always increased, so the
current is always the peak).

If I'm going to give a range, I'd rather give a range from current+x% -
current+y%

Of course, that suffers from the same problem as most other ideas, which is
they may have been prepared to offer far more, but reduce because they know
you'll accept current+x%.

------
lsc
really?

I mean, I usually have more than one offer. For me, I've always been open
about what I currently make, and about how much it'd take to get me away from
that. I'm also open about any other offers on my plate.

I interview often enough that I figure that if I am lowballed, I'll get
another offer that is better enough to move fairly quickly. If you want me
long term, eh, maybe you shouldn't have lowballed me in the first place?

Key here, I think, is to keep interviewing even when you aren't really looking
to move. it's the only way to have an honest view of how much you are worth,
and I think it's good practice, anyhow.

(of course, for the last year and a half I haven't been working for other
people, and I haven't quite figured out contractor negotiations.)

