
Samsung’s biggest challenge now is Google software, not Apple hardware - ptrptr
http://www.theverge.com/2017/3/30/15118744/samsung-galaxy-s8-google-software-apple-hardware-competition
======
jessriedel
Can anyone speak to success or usefulness of any of this Samsung software? In
my experience, these are usually terrible and are in any case always worse
than the Google equivalent. The first hour I own a Samsung phone is spent
stripping these back as much as allowed.

Do people really use these? Does Samsung really make money from them? Naively
it seems like they must if they exist, but I wonder if it's just a continuing
bet Samsung is making that has never paid off.

EDIT: To be clear, if experts consider the apps to be worse but consumers
still use them, this would explain why Samsung builds them. My question is
whether they are actually used and, if not, why Samsung does this.

~~~
isaac_is_goat
Based on the users that use our dating web app - about 10% of our revenue
comes from the Samsung browser. Which says to me that lay people can't be
bothered to use anything but the default "productivity" apps that come pre-
installed on the phone. It has "Internet" so installing Chrome doesn't matter
to them.

Samsung's browser is complete garbage too. It's the IE of Android and I hate
supporting it.

~~~
zmmmmm
> Samsung's browser is complete garbage too

It's certainly a pain to support ... I get quite a few compatibility / layout
issues with web sites. However I use it anyway because it has a bunch simple
incredibly obvious features that for my use make it infinitely better than
Chrome for simple browsing.

~~~
tannhaeuser
Could you elaborate on what these features are? Personally I'm a fan of FF
mobile.

~~~
tracker1
I actually liked when chrome tabs showed up in the app switcher... I don't
like FF much at all, but I at least get ublock on it. So FF is my default (so
launches from twitter/fb go there), but the sites I go to directly, usually
done in Chrome.

------
salimmadjd
I met the Samsung team by accident several years ago at TC Disrupt. We were
having lunch at the same table.

Being in the mobile health space, I instantly went into my pitching mode and
started selling them on the virtues of mobile health and why it would help
provide some platform stickiness (if I have a chronic disease and have lots of
health data there, I wouldn't want to switch platform and lose my valuable
data). This was before Apple Health was launched or was ever mentioned.

Quickly it became clear to me, Samsung was ahead of me and they fully
understood the value of health data. And it was very clear how strategic they
were about the future of mobile and ways the would be able to keep people on
their platform.

It's obvious Samsung understands the value of software. Especially as more
Chinese or Taiwanese companies are making competing hardware, it's become very
difficult to differentiate or be able to differentiate in the long-run.

It's natural Samsung would want to find ways of differentiating against their
competitors. However, they have not been successful yet. I think part of the
problem is corporate structure/culture. Will Samsung be able to build an
entire consumer software division that is free to operate fast, test things
and break things? Or will the team be slowed down having to coordinating with
Seoul?

Either way, Samsung will alway be one step behind Google, not having full
visibility in Googles updates. And there is a chance that Google may want to
put a distance between itself and the other handset makers just to reap more
profits from their hardware division.

If I was samsung, I would try to focus on killer apps within the asian market.
For example, Yandex (of Russia) until recently (and maybe still) had far
better map over google maps in their region. Even for places like Turkey,
Yandex had a better map. Can Samsung become the brand for providing far better
mapping technology in the region? Can they build much better search technology
for asian languages?

~~~
make3
"I met the Samsung team" Weirdly worded since the Samsung mobile team is
fucking huge and fits in multiple buildings in multiple countries

~~~
jamestnz
Less weird when you take into consideration the rest of the sentence: "I met
the Samsung team ... at TC Disrupt". So "team" in that context would be the
folks that Samsung were sending to TC, not the whole company-wide team.

------
yogrish
Samsung had always been scared of google. They developed and are still
developing androids replacement OS called TIZEN. It's a total crap OS and
never able to catch up with android. Most tizen phones are unsold and are
given to its employees as annual gift.Samsung RnD in India is the worst place
to work for.My friend worked here It has worst culture in SW industry. They
think spending 12-15 hrs bring good software. It's Highly unethical company.
They want to transform to a SW company by conducting SW exams to engineers.
But they miss the point that it has to change its DNA first from its Factory
and copycat mindset to innovation/skill based mindset that lot of western
companies like google/Facebook/apple exhibit.

------
andmarios
The title could be _how Samsung wants to lock you in and call it brand
loyalty_.

I don't want to use Samsung apps. Neither LG, Sony or HTC apps if they are
restricted to certain handsets. I want to be able to switch smartphones
without a cognitive overhead. Sure, zoom out a bit and buying into Google
ecosystem looks the same, but still, the range of choice is match better.

Want to win me over? Make your samsung app available for my lg phone and next
time I am in the market for a new one, I will look more favorably upon you.

Maybe there is something wrong with me as a consumer though, who knows.

~~~
devoply
This is exactly right. Android is open source and more or less free for
vendors who want to use it. If you want to deal with that then make your stuff
open source and free, but then you lose competitive advantage and brand
loyalty through lock-in and that's the point. You have to compete on other
things like features and quality.

~~~
2muchcoffeeman
> You have to compete on other things like features and quality.

Quality is obvious. People like well made things and are willing to pay for
them.

But features? What kind of feature won't require software or software support?
Waterproofing? Curved screen?

------
Hydraulix989
My biggest challenge with Samsung was the software customizations they put on
their phones.

A lot of it is just bonafide bloat -- there's even a Samsung Printing Service
on my phone, and some of it is just completely unwanted UI modifications like
"TouchWiz". Samsung even acts as an intermediate layer of bureaucracy that
further delays receiving OS updates (i.e. first the update has to come from
Google, then Samsung takes Google's update and has to take time to make their
customizations to it adding in their Printing Service and their completely
redundant Samsung Messages app, then the carriers take Samsung's update and
apply their own modifications like restricting tethering and adding Verizon
Messages, NFL, and VZ Maps Navigation, all with restricted uninstallations).
My perfectly-capable Galaxy S6 will likely never see the day when it can run
Android N.

I have since switched to the Google Nexus 6P, which has a vanilla Google
version of Android, and I am much happier with a cleaner, much more
streamlined personal device.

On the other hand, given that Android is open source, I'm curious why Samsung
can't just put something like Cyanogenmod on the S8 (or their own forked
"custom ROM") and call it a day?

~~~
0xelectron
Believe it or not, but, there are people who don't like stock android. They
want to be able differentiate themselves. Why do you think companies like
Xiaomi, vivo, oppo, etc are a huge success.

~~~
jtmcmc
In part because you can't use google services in China so you don't get all
those parts of Android...

------
itchyjunk
I am glad Samsung is trying instead of just saying "we can't do better than
google anyways." Maybe most of this might fail and maybe some even wont
teach/contribute in any constructive way. But even with small percent of
success they add a healthy competition and an alternative.

That being said, I had no idea Samsung had all this going on before I read
this article. So take my opinion with a grain of salt.

------
intrasight
I'll agree that shifting consumer preferences related to software is a major
threat to Samsung. I have for several years taken the position that there are
only two smartphone options - the latest iPhone or the latest Google
Nexus/Pixel.

~~~
ams6110
That's a ridiculously narrow assumption. There are millions of smartphone
users who cannot afford either of these flagships, and people like me who
could but refuse to spend the money on what I consider unnecessary features.

~~~
intrasight
I was just stating my position. Certainly others are free to take a different
position. I still also have and use a Sanyo Mil-spec flip-phone - because
sometimes the only necessary feature is to be able to reliably make and
receive phone calls.

Regarding smartphone features - the really don't differ very much. I buy
Google phones because a) I want them unlocked, and b) I don't want malware and
bloatware, and c) I want regular updates to OS.

~~~
tannhaeuser
I used to take a purist Android view like this. But AOSP 4+ with its mandatory
lock-in to Google services and its "always watching you" policy is the
definition of lock-in malware. Do you trust the incentive for Google (for whom
you are no customer but a product) more than that for your phone manufacturer
(with whom you have a regular customer relationship)?

~~~
jsjohnst
Call me naive, but even as an outspoken critic of many things Google, I trust
their phones far more than any other Android phone.

That said, I disagree I would trust even Google branded phones re: malware.
Android will likely never have my trust there.

------
jpalomaki
Samsung is also flirting with Microsoft, "The Microsoft Edition Android phone
appears to be exactly the same as the regular version of the Galaxy S8 and
Galaxy S8 Plus from a hardware perspective, but it will apparently have some
features that make it easier to install and use Microsoft apps that don't
already come preinstalled on the device, such as Outlook and Cortana, when
users first connect to Wi-Fi. The Galaxy S8 will ship with Office basics such
as Word, Excel and PowerPoint, as well as OneDrive and Skype"

[1] [http://www.windowscentral.com/samsung-galaxy-s8-microsoft-
ed...](http://www.windowscentral.com/samsung-galaxy-s8-microsoft-edition)

~~~
mtgx
They've been "flirting" since Windows Phone 8 days.

Also, the "new Microsoft" is using its patent extortion scheme to get "deals"
out of manufacturers, where they say they won't extort them anymore with
patent royalties if the phone makers accept to put the Microsoft apps on their
phones.

[http://www.androidauthority.com/microsoft-cuts-patent-
fees-f...](http://www.androidauthority.com/microsoft-cuts-patent-fees-for-
apps-600824/)

[http://www.theverge.com/2016/8/23/12599132/lenovo-
microsoft-...](http://www.theverge.com/2016/8/23/12599132/lenovo-microsoft-
office-skype-onedrive-android-devices)

------
Zigurd
Samsung's problems with software are a legacy of how Android was launched:
Android had to be launched with the help of hardware OEMs. Hardware OEMs (with
the exception of vertically integrated Apple) were, in turn, under the thumb
of carriers. Both carriers are hardware OEMs are utter crapulent crap at
software AND at product management, and at the time could be quite arrogant
about it despite being hopeless.

Now that Android is mature, OEM and carrier modifications should be limited
and strictly user uninstallable. Even in the short history of modern
smartphones, this has been evident for several years now. But that legacy of
carrier dominance of phone specs and crap product management persist.

Google has been unable to get a handle on this problem. If you are in the
know, choose a Nexus or Pixel device. But Android Silver, Android One, Google
Play Edition, etc. have all gone by the boards as OEMs drift back into "but we
need differentiation."

The upshot is that Samsung's biggest challenge is to simply refrain from
adding bloat and confusion. Their product management should be asking "Is this
SO much better than what Google has that it would dominate the category if we
put it on Google Play for everyone to use?" If not, it needs gone.

------
kpil
I kind of almost get why Samsung is doing this, as they have identified that
they will be looking at decreased margins as a hardware-only player but...

Is it really viable? What do Samsung offer that Google doesn't already do. Is
it possible to compete right now, in a head to head fight?

Do the users care enough to chose Samsung? Those that care at all, are they
not inclined to pick Google as the lesser evil of two megacorp? I have no idea
if it's the case. I'm worried about Googles panopticon and market dominance,
but Samsung's headquarters might be in a volcano, filled with CEOs, swivel
chairs and white cats, for all I know. Or they might be run by angels that
only wants to give us nice stuff... No idea.

~~~
Hydraulix989
Samsung is basically the Korean government.

Moreover, I rode in Samsung cars, used Samsung refrigerators, and I even saw
advertisements for Samsung Life Insurance when I was visiting Seoul. They do
everything.

~~~
chrischen
Japan is the same, and so is China. Those countries like conglomerates for
coporate structures.

I'd say the Western equivalent would be a holding company.

~~~
mattnewton
China is? My impression was that successful buisinesses there were blessed by
the government, as more of a top-down thing. I thought in Korea it was more
like if Goldman Sachs was also Apple and GE- enormous influence, and
politicians succeeded who were blessed by samsung.

------
mark_l_watson
I agree with the premise of the article, that software becomes more important
than hardware at some point in the future. The only two phones I have owned
are a Galaxy S3 and a Note 4: Samsung makes great hardware, but disabling
bloat and waiting for Android updates is not good.

I am almost two years past my trade up date, but the Note 4 keeps satisfying.
I had intended to try an iPhone next, since I like my iPad and MacBook, but
the S8 definitely has me tempted to stay with Samsung.

The screen, with almost no bezel, is the selling point for me.

------
skdotdan
Samsung should ship their phones with Tizen instead of Android. In the long
term you are dead if you don't control your own software.

They could build a "Android bridge" (an Android runtime for Tizen) and partner
with the main app developers (in particular, Facebook) to upload their Android
apps on Samsung's own store.

It would be extremely risky but also it would pay off. Otherwise, they will be
crushed in the Android phones commoditization race to bottom.

~~~
vetinari
Samsung is terrible with their OS, if they switched phones to a software
similar to their TVs, that would instantly kill their mobile division.

Maybe they should look into bringing an AOSP phone without any cloud services
(not only without Google, but without any; or at least easily uninstallable,
unlike their current offering) and capitalize on recent anti-Google and anti-
spying sentiment. That would require renegotiating their contract with Google
through.

~~~
lvillani
As far as I understand it, having the right to sell a phone with Google Play
Services is an all-or-nothing situation.

> The OHA is a group of companies committed to Android—Google's Android—and
> members are contractually prohibited from building non-Google approved
> devices. That's right, joining the OHA requires a company to sign its life
> away and promise to not build a device that runs a competing Android fork.

(cit. [https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2013/10/googles-iron-grip-
on...](https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2013/10/googles-iron-grip-on-android-
controlling-open-source-by-any-means-necessary/3/))

~~~
on_and_off
Samsung probably has the position of strength to push for a phone without play
services.

However that's a lot of stuff that suddenly needs to be replaced and I don't
see Samsung able to pull of correctly half of Play Services.

~~~
hocuspocus
> Samsung probably has the position of strength to push for a phone without
> play services.

No they aren't. The first Galaxy Gear ran a non-certified version of Android
and Google got _really_ upset about it​. Launching a phone would be suicide.

As for the alternative services they already have a lot of stuff for the
Chinese market and Tizen phones.

------
JohnJamesRambo
I try using a Samsung phone and always run back to something with a more stock
Android package, I don't think Google has anything to worry about on this
front.

~~~
dba7dba
Give this a read. [http://www.theverge.com/2013/3/19/4120208/why-andy-rubin-
and...](http://www.theverge.com/2013/3/19/4120208/why-andy-rubin-android-
called-it-quits)

Andy Rubin, creator of Android, left Google after a decade because Samsung
became more closely identified with Android phone than Google, or something to
that effect.

"While Samsung got rich off shipping phones built on Android, Google’s brand
faded into the background and its influence was chipped away."

------
wiradikusuma
Samsung also downplaying Android the OS, that's why they have TouchWiz (like
most software, first iterations are crappy, but constantly improving), so when
they switch to different OS (say Tizen), people would still feel home.

In Indonesia, there's a competition platform (like Kaggle, but for devs to
make apps), and Samsung is one of the regular sponsors, holding competitions
to build apps for Tizen, with interesting prizes.

~~~
frik
Samsung exit strategy is Tizen. But they forgot to use the exit strategy back
when Samsung produced 80-90% of all Android phones about 3 years ago. Now many
cheap but equal as good Chinese phones got released. But Samsung might still
try it, and partly migrated their users as their SmartTVs and watches run now
on Tizen.

------
sharpshadow
Broadly spoken surpassing should be a consequence not the aim. Having a rich
feature set, at least as rich as your competitors, is required to offer the
same playground. Before you can evaluate two features there have to be two
features. In this sense Samsung is already on the right way. If their software
will ever surpass Googles, well everything is possible.

------
espeed
This. It's not about the hardware anymore, it's the software, services, and
security that matter now. On these fronts Google is light years beyond Samsung
or Apple, and the expanse is only going to get greater over the next 10 years,
esp with its data resources combined with its advances in AI. Skate to where
the puck is going.

~~~
Razengan
Neither Google nor Microsoft (I wouldn't even count Samsung among the top
players here) come close to the out-of-the-box experience and integration of
services like you get in the Apple orchard.

Read a book on my iPad and have my place, bookmark, notes, automatically show
up my Mac. Same with movies and podcasts; they pick up from where I left even
when I switch devices. AirPods work with all my devices without cumbersome
unpair/re-pairing. Copy/paste across devices. The cloud-synced documents
without even having to manually save them.

All of that and more, all so seamless, with no configuration required on my
part beyond signing with my Apple ID once on each device. This makes a huge
difference to me as a user and Apple aren't under threat from anyone on that
side.

~~~
emsy
On the other hand, Apples lack of support for standards is hurting their
users. Metal instead of Vulkan, USB Micro/C vs. Lightning. No Miracast
support. Most TV software has built in support for Android (simply show videos
and photos on your TV). Better integration into the system. My router supports
landline calls via smartphone, but iOS doesn't allow integration into the
dialer. Copying non-iTunes music to your iPhone is still a PITA. If you don't
live in an exclusively Apple environment, your experience will suck. Honestly,
Google and the bad update support is the only reason I won't switch to
Android. Definitely not the day-to-day user experience.

~~~
valuearb
Airplay was created because Miracast had sucked for years and still does.
Apple always creates proprietary enhancements to make technologies work well
in real use for real customers, like they did with Airplay/FaceTime, etc.

And iOS 10 supports custom VOIP in the dialer.

~~~
emsy
It's not so much about the individual points anyway, but about the mentality
in general. I came up with these examples off the top of my head.

First of all, that Apple is the only one providing usable real-world solutions
is simply not true. Secondly, it still doesn't invalidate my point. Even if
Android works badly with third party products, Apple is often absolutely
incompatible.

Disclaimer: I'm an iPhone user, mainly for security/privacy reasons.

------
MattRogish
Well, yeah. That's why they bought Joyent.

~~~
macspoofing
Pretty UI is not Samsung's problem.

~~~
bitmapbrother
On the contrary. TouchWiz is the antithesis of "pretty UI".

~~~
Godel_unicode
Samsung can be bad at pretty UI (no judgement here on whether or not they are)
without that being their problem.

------
bertlequant
My dad used to have trouble with Enternet Explorer. Mainly, his sister in law
would come visit, play a bunch of Flash games, and then his computer wouldn't
work right anymore. So, I explained what Chrome was ("what's a browser?),
installed an adblocker, removed the shortcut for Enternet Explorer, and
replaced it with Chrome. He would say he understood he needed to click the
Chrome logo and the internet would still be available like he was used to.
When I would return days or weeks later, I would notice that Chrome was still
there but IE had crept back somehow and he was using it. I think a similar
pattern happens with phones. Whatever is baked in, gets used by the average
user, regardless of how bad it sucks to someone in the know.

------
jorvi
Samsung could easily fork Android and set up their own app store (just like
Amazon). They account for over 50%(!) of the Android market. Hell, I'd like
them to become the new Apple: Apple is ditching most of their peripheral
hardware suite, they don't sell routers or displays anymore. If Samsung put in
some effort they could create the same level of integration with their
displays, phones, laptops, TVs etc. that Apple used to have.

~~~
valuearb
What talented engineers would every work for Samsung?

~~~
dba7dba
You probably wouldn't say that in front of the Samsung engineers that keep the
production lines of their RAM, CPU, displays humming.

They are engineers too, and with the scale they deal with, I'd say they are
talented engineers.

------
everyone
Now that google are making their own phones in earnest I think they will start
trying to hobble Android on Samsung phones.

~~~
johncolanduoni
They don't really need to. Samsung already happily modifies as much AOSP code
as they can get away with.

------
bogomipz
I have a question does S8 run Tizen? I am guessing it doesn't since it has no
mention in the article?

------
cxf12
Samsung Pay has not disappointed.

------
cxf12
Samsung pay has not disappointed.

