
How to Take Smart Notes - Anon84
https://praxis.fortelabs.co/how-to-take-smart-notes/
======
asterisk_
Note-taking seems to have gained popularity on HackerNews over the past few
weeks (or my attention has been biased towards these submissions, at least).

I've long been interested in the domain of "personal knowledge engineering"
and this clearly seems a common thread within our community. As a brief
overview of the "SOTA:"

* Emacs and Vim users skew towards Org-mode or Vim wiki.

* Roam Research is sort of a recent web-based alternative.

* There's a lot of competition in the domain of fully-fledged note taking apps. Evernote has long been viewed as a king of note-taking but lost its edge over time (bad editor, bugs, lack of attention to their users). Memex seems to be gaining popularity even though their software looks somewhat buggy at the moment.

* Otherwise, people naturally develop their own (similar) systems. I myself have independently developed a custom-made Vim wiki before starting research into this topic. It basically consists of a few grepping/Vim aliases to search/create Markdown in a `~/.notes` folder, backed up to GitHub. `mod+-` is bound to an i3 sratchpad where Vim is constantly open to `~/.notes/index.md`. This drastically reduces friction when making new notes.

In any case, seems interesting that a lot of the personal note-taking systems
have separately adopted similar principles to what Zettelkasten proposes:

1\. Heavy reliance on tagging

2\. Some sort of deep linking

3\. Preference to making small, independent "knowledge chunks"

~~~
nextos
I use a small subset of Org Mode myself. But I think people focus too much on
tools vs method. Plain text plus ripgrep can work great. Lühmann used pen and
paper, and he built some hugely successful Zettelkastens. Many users at
Zettelkasten.de write super simple notes in Markdown.

Actually, I'd never move away from plain text or a plain text format like Org,
Markdown or similar as it is really future proof. Will Roam or Evernote be
around and well maintained in 20 years? Probably not. I'd recommend you to use
your favorite text editor plus Markdown. If your favorite text editor is
Emacs, then consider Org.

~~~
bachmeier
_I think people focus too much on tools vs method_

I've been guilty of this too. A note is a way to get something out of your
head. I always return to plain text files on my computer because that's the
fastest/least resistance and there just aren't any additional benefits for me
to using other approaches. Linux command line tools are a simple yet effective
way to work with text.

------
AlphaWeaver
In the realm of note taking and personal knowledge management apps, I've been
shopping around recently.

Notion is very popular, and Roam Research [0] has been the popular scrappy
upstart that people have been looking at, but I've been unhappy with these
since neither has an API (and neither are open source.)

I would _strongly_ urge HN readers to take a look at Tiddlywiki [1]. It's
popped up on Hacker News before, and I wrote it off, but I've been taking a
closer look recently and its _incredibly_ powerful, as well as completely
customizable and open source. It runs off of a micro-kernel architecture, so
the core application itself is implemented in code that you can change, edit,
and manage just like you would do with your own notes. It's really easy to get
started (it's a self contained HTML file) but seems so have some robust saving
and backup functionality.

Please please give it a look if you're looking at tools in this space. I've
already started using it and I'm _very_ happy with it.

(Not affiliated with Tiddlywiki, just a really happy user.)

[0]: [https://roamresearch.com](https://roamresearch.com) [1]:
[https://tiddlywiki.com](https://tiddlywiki.com)

~~~
100721
Have you found anything like a hybrid between OneNote for its
drawing/handwriting-with-stylus support + Roam or TiddlyWiki for the graph-
like organization?

~~~
thunderbong
What about Trillium?
([https://github.com/zadam/trilium](https://github.com/zadam/trilium))

~~~
urlwolf
I used to love it, but I realized typing latency kills it (being electron).
Also, export doesn't help as note links are internal references. So it's not
future proof, it's a no for me. It has a great developer though. And the graph
visualization is second to none.

~~~
The_Colonel
> Also, export doesn't help as note links are internal references.

During export Trilium fixes the internal references to standard HTML links so
they reference pages in the structure like "./sub-folder/my-topic.html" (but
yeah, it was not always like that).

------
notjustanymike
The most important improvement to my note taking was the elimination of a
computer. Ideas, digressions, illustrations, concerns, and more are difficult
to translate to a machine using a keyboard or mouse. A tablet is better, but
the fidelity of a drawing app isn't as good as paper.

Paper, it turns out, is always "on". There's no battery to worry about, no
booting up and loading the app, and no Slack notification interrupting your
flow. Paper calms you, because you know it never ever interrupts.

I've really enjoyed evolving the tools I use for notes. Right now I take all
notes in a large dotted moleskin using a Rotring Pro. Turns out the more
enjoyable a tool is to use, the more likely you are to use it. The notebook is
the lower end Moleskin ($20 for a 3-pack), and that's a nice balance between
quality and feeling comfortable "wasting" a page.

~~~
criddell
> the more enjoyable a tool is to use, the more likely you are to use it

That's why I often use a tablet and stylus for anything I intend to keep. I
enjoy using the gear. I like having pens and markers created exactly how I
like them and they never run out. I like being able to make my paper as big as
I want it to be. Sometimes I want blank paper, sometimes dot grid, sometimes
lines, etc... and I can have them all in the same notebook. I like that my
handwriting is recognized and I can search it. It's great being able to paste
in an image that I capture with the camera or find on the web. It's nice being
able to move a paragraph to make space for something I forgot.

I don't have trouble with Slack or email because they aren't installed. No
notifications are allowed on the tablet, except for OS-related ones (ie an
update is available).

That said, I do still use a paper and pen all the time as well. I like paper
and pen in meetings to capture and then after the meeting I format and
transfer the notes to my digital system. I like pen and paper when I'm on the
phone because I like scribbling and doodling as I talk.

Basically the divide comes down to what is ephemeral and what I want to keep.
Anything that needs to last has to be digital for me.

~~~
100721
I, too, thoroughly enjoy using a tablet. I have been on the hunt for something
that has an organizational structure like graphs, paired with support for pen
inputs. Right now I've been using OneNote and it is falling victim to the
described problem of greater and greater segmentation of ideas.

Right now, it seems like the only real solution is to homebrew something that
hits the Microsoft API and associates document IDs to contexts, then launches
OneNote for the given document when it comes time to view/edit.

~~~
criddell
That's a really interesting idea.

My problem with a graph structure is that ultimately I end up with notes that
fit more than one bucket. For that reason I usually gravitate to a structure
built on tags.

------
cek
Interesting the first few principles are not about note-taking, but writing in
general. If you believe in the power of the written word to drive clarity
(e.g. as in Amazon-style 6-page narratives), these principles are gold:

Principle #1: Writing is not the outcome of thinking; it is the medium in
which thinking takes place

Principle #2: Do your work as if writing is the only thing that matters

Principle #5: Standardization enables creativity

Principle #6: Our work only gets better when exposed to high-quality feedback

~~~
BiteCode_dev
Principle #1 is too extreme.

While I confirm that writing is a powerful medium for thinking, anybody writer
with a shower to take or a hike to walk will tell you that thinking takes
place in many ways.

Parts like "If you want to learn and remember something long-term, you have to
write it down" depends so much of context. Again, writing down does help me to
commit things in memory, but for some information, audio is better. For
others, repeating in my head is better.

Good advice all in all, but the definitive tone of the article is not needed
IMO.

~~~
jacquesm
There is this tendency to reduce everything to simple rules that are simply
wrong. Nuance takes more effort to put into words and to understand. And so we
end up with these 'soundbite' bits of wisdom that are worse than nothing at
all.

Writing something down requires clarity, and clarity can be gained in many
ways. Writing something down that isn't clear yet will result in (hopefully)
spotting that lack of clarity before you press 'send' or 'publish'. But that
doesn't mean that all for stuff that ends up written is happening while
writing it down and without a _very_ good idea of what you are trying to
communicate beforehand you'll end up with bad writing.

~~~
analog31
This is an interesting point because it could help explain why scientists
enjoy programming, even when we sometimes do it to our own detriment. Nothing
clarifies a quantitative thought process better than having to write it down
in the form of code. And the code either runs or it doesn't, so you know that
at least it has some level of self consistency before you walk away from it.

------
jvanderbot
Simply keeping a list of ideas has made a huge difference for me. Instead of
feeling distracted by an idea when I should be focusing on something else,
storing it somewhere means I can come back to it. Reviewing the idea list
inspires me and gives me something to do when I'm bored. Finding articles or
papers related to an idea, or capturing random thoughts about it is as easy as
dumping it in a folder (eg in Dropbox ) that is numbered by the idea.
Appending the number to notes or file names makes it easy to find information
as well.

I read an article that inspired me to write down every idea no matter how
silly, and to try to work on 5 to 10 of them at once, and to always have one
that is my main driver.

Over the last 4 years, I've tallied 264. One has supported my research for 3
years (#021). One is my primary hobby (#013). Several have since been
announced as results or products by major companies, validating the idea and
removing the need to work on it.

\---

EDIT: I cannot quickly find the article, but I'll summarize.

1\. Write down 100 ideas in one sitting. Any ideas. By the end, you'll be
forced to really think outside your comfort zone, since everything prior is
usually your first-order thoughts.

2\. Choose 10 of the most promising to work on. Work means just pay attention
to, make incremental prototypes, etc.

3\. Choose the top contender to throw your weight behind. Maintain a 1/10/100
ratio as you retire ideas.

\---

My difference is I keep the list rolling and append new ideas as they come. I
never sit down and make myself write a new batch (I should!). I'm actively
working on about 5-10, in various stages of funding (I'm on a semi-soft money
funding model).

EDIT 2: Found! [http://blog.fogus.me/2015/11/04/the-100101-method-my-
approac...](http://blog.fogus.me/2015/11/04/the-100101-method-my-approach-to-
open-source/)

~~~
almata
Any chance you still have that article around? I would like to read it if
possible.

~~~
jvanderbot
I'm not able to find it, but it wasn't much more than a blog post exposing the
points I mention in the edited comment. If anyone can remember it (it was a HN
post), that'd be great!

~~~
fbr
maybe this one:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10513015](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10513015)

~~~
jvanderbot
Nice, thank you!

------
Ahrens-Luhmann
I feel the entire article is very confusing. Maybe I would need to have read
the book to understand the article. I went in with the expectation of
informative guidlines to effective notetaking, and left feeling i hade read a
very lengthy way of saying taking notes is important. Coupled with a
description of a complex way to archive notes(slip box), with no explanation
of how to use the structure (your box).

~~~
dot1x
That's no coincidence. The book on which this article is based on is _exactly_
the same (I read it). There are maybe a couple of ideas in the entire 200
pages book and it just runs in circles.

------
JshWright
> For example, you could memorize the fact that arteries are red and veins are
> blue.

This is not a "fact", it's just a common convention used in medical drawings.
The actual fact is that arteries are bright red, and veins are a dull red.

~~~
hartator
Well. That kind of makes the full article of taking “smart notes” not that
smart.

------
akkartik
Useful past submissions:

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21208196](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21208196)

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22085837](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22085837)

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22337681](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22337681)

------
urlwolf
I'm sold on the zettelkasten method. I've tried zim, cherrynotes, trilium...

I've found two things that matter most for me: 1/ you need an editor where
typing latency is low. Below 10ms. Otherwise you will get in a bad mood and
make more mistakes. Electron apps need not apply

2/ creating, linking, and finding notes must be fast

On top of that, it must be future proof.

I've found the ideal solution in howl (howl.io). This is a text editor, built
in moonscript and with sane default. Typing latency is 6ms, faster than
anything else I could find (on linux, non compositing window manager)

The trick for liking (in markdown) is autocompletion. It will autocomplete
based on all buffers open. My trick is to run :exec ls (list of files in the
project directory) and leave this buffer open. Then ctrl space will
autocomplete filenames. The rest is trivial.

Oh God, Howl deserves so much praise. I hope it gets picked up on HN one day.
It's only missing a tiny push, having a community around it would be amazing.

~~~
dot1x
nvALT fits the bill, as does "Archiver"

------
michael-ax
Captured and tagged. Thank you vm!

I have seen so many play-things in the note-space that I want to give just a
few stats from my 6yo personal emacs setup:

I capture and refile into 14 .orgs indexed at varying depth using the agenda
ag and helm for search as needed.

grep "\ _\_ " bmarks/*.org |wc etc say there are 5669 notes, 62652 lines
437644 words 3,663,683 bytes total.

since 3/14 I have annotated 111 pdfs, linked many more, captured 508 images.
300+ days logged before switching to a weekly format 201 weeks ago.

I can attest to the sentiment that there is actual communication going on
between creator and such a system. :) a multi-media key takes me into capture
and either a line-oriented popup for 'jots', a floating window or a full-
screen distraction free mode where i can quickly see, that the great thing i
discovered yesterday slipped from my mind 5 years ago.

The most important improvement to my note taking was realizing that, like
Luhmann, I wasn't taking notes but curating an exo-brain.

I had seen emacs as a rinky-dink over-complicated under-documented religious
thing -- and not as the low-stress 'does everything except long-lines really
well and never crashes' thing that is now at the heart of my computing life.
So.. to continue learning emacs for the next 30 years is definitely on my
agenda because its worth it for the quality without a name .. absent
elsewhere.

It was cool to see how his manual linking (not just tags) would force him to
review the neighborhood he would place his cards in. I neglect that sometimes
and so the epiphanies and understanding I get from integrating content have to
sometimes wait a cycle or two or come when i check things in or close out the
day.

Anyway? My point? Invest yourself into org-mode and take notes for a few years
to learn how to take better notes while building something that can last you a
whole life long. it worked for me. ty!

------
a_c
For me the steps are taking smart notes are

1\. Get started, doesn't matter how dumb your notes are

2\. Use tiddlywiki for connecting ideas

3\. Read the book How to Read a Book

4\. Repeat

------
c-smile
Thanks, just added the note about the notes into my Sciter Notes :)

[http://notes.sciter.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/note-
note...](http://notes.sciter.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/note-note.png)

CTRL+C in browser and CTRL+V in Sciter Notes
([https://notes.sciter.com](https://notes.sciter.com)) + tag and book
selection.

------
dapithor
I replied about this project before but surprised it hasn't reached more
mainstream awareness. Piggydb former and now Cotoami [1]

[1]: [https://piggydb.net/2019/03/06/why-its-harder-to-discover-
va...](https://piggydb.net/2019/03/06/why-its-harder-to-discover-valuable-
knowledge-in-tree-structured-note-taking/)

------
gardenfelder
The slip box diagram reminds me of Ted Nelson's ZigZag. But then, the
numbering system raises an issue: in Zettelkasten, as practiced in Roam, and
to degree in FedWiki, you can effectively _transclude_ notes in other
dimensions. In Roam and FedWiki, the identity system of slip boxes is replaced
by _slugs_ based on the note's title.

------
chrisweekly
History of Zettelkasten and well-informed recommendations by an expert in the
field. See also RoamResearch.com and NessLabs FTW

------
dang
Related from yesterday:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22337681](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22337681)

Related from a few weeks ago:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22085837](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22085837)

------
lethologica
I’ve tried this and failed with a Tiddlywiki. I found the Métis if entering
data too cumbersome and gave up. All I want is a single text file that I Can
take multiple notes in and link those notes internally in that single file. I
wish Apple notes had an easy way of doing this but for now I’m stuck with
writing HTML.

~~~
bobbylarrybobby
I am routinely blown away by the fact that apple doesn't expose URLs for
individual pieces of your data that they store (emails, notes, messages,
files, etc). There's no way to reference another note in the current note
except to share the other note and get its iCloud link.

However, there is an editor that makes linking between notes seamless, called
Bear (bear.app).

------
abtin08
We are actually building a tool right now sharing many similar principles from
the post. If you are also obsessed about this space, we are looking for more
engineers to join us. we're pre-launch, reach out to me at
abtin.setyani@gmail.com or on twitter : @s_abtin

------
yread
How does "21/3d26g53" fit into the numbering system described? Why even
mention it?

~~~
OJFord
I struggled with that too - but I think it's because the first (pre-/) line is
the only one not to be lettered, in the diagram it's `1a` not because it's `a`
on `1`, but because it's `a` on the `1`-th branch off `1`; in total it's
`1/1a`.

So `3` is the third branch off `21`, `d` marking that it's the d-th (fourth)
in line on that branch.

But maybe I'm still wrong, I agree it's not clear.

Edit: Having said that, even by what I'm saying it should end `53a`, not just
`53`.

------
bfishadow
Is there an app for that? Seriously.

~~~
eandre
I believe this is what Roam[1] is kind of built for, whether they intended it
or not. I haven't used it but was inspired to take another look at it after
this article.

[1] [https://roamresearch.com/](https://roamresearch.com/)

~~~
inakarmacoma
Has anyone given this a try whose also used by analysts in the past? I'm
curious how they compare

------
tfolbrecht
There so many posts with stuff like this, but what’s really had a positive
impact for me is using my own custom notation. Nothing fancy, no org mode,
wikis, markdown, just brackets and characters.

~~~
celeritascelery
Why has that worked better for you?

~~~
tfolbrecht
It's concise, simple, portable so I can use whatever text editor or notes app.
I've gotten burnt out on switching.

------
daffy
Does anyone do this in org mode? Do you use Luhmann's numbering in headings?

------
Tarkus69
I find taking notes on "the guide" revolutionary. It's a tree like application
to take notes.

[https://the-guide.it.softonic.com/](https://the-guide.it.softonic.com/)

~~~
hu3
A better link:
[http://theguide.sourceforge.net/features.html](http://theguide.sourceforge.net/features.html)

------
daffy
Why is the first branch off 1 1/1 rather than 1a?

~~~
daffy
[https://niklas-luhmann-archiv.de/nachlass/zettelkasten](https://niklas-
luhmann-archiv.de/nachlass/zettelkasten)

------
markus_zhang
During my work as a business/data analyst, I have found a way to organize my
project notes, scripts, dashboards and spreadsheets.

PART I - Paper notes (Yes I still keep paper notes)

1 - Prepare a batch of 10-20 prints of my special note-taking pdf for each
project, depending on the size (small if within 4 sprints, and big if more
than 4);

2 - Write down names of attendees during the meetings, so that I know who to
contact when I need info

3 - Prepare a folder for each project and always put the notes, one page for a
meeting, in the following order:

Top -> Always the most urgent or important meeting notes. E.g. KPI meetings,
or telemetry meetings

Then I put the rest meeting notes on reverse chronological order (most recent
at top)

In this way, I can always review the previous meetings, as well as the most
urgent issues in under 5 minutes, which is good because I work in Agile and in
most of the companies that I worked for, this means Fast, not Efficient.

PART II - Electronic notes, scripts, dashboards and spreadsheets

I have a top-level One-Drive folder called "Company_Team_Name", which is also
shared between Win10 (Host) and Ubuntu (VirtualBox). I have two child folders
under it, "Company_Team_Name/Project" and "Company_Team_Name/Task".

I use the following tools:

Excel, for results of analysis and other stuffs;

SQL, my bread and butter;

Python, sometimes I write Python scripts to help my analysis. I do not like
notebooks so I write fully operational programs;

Shell, some Linux command line tools, like csvsql, are very useful for simple
tasks;

Tableau, for all dashboards;

Typora, for all research note taking

I organize the project folders in Datagrip, as I pretty much need SQL for
every report.

1 - In Ubuntu/Win10, create a new folder under "Company_Team_Name/Project"
with the name of the new project, assuming it's a 4+ JIRA long project, not an
overnight task.

2 - In Datagrip, create the following folders for each report (I worked long
enough to know that we need these reports):

"./Pre_Analysis" -> For pre analysis of the project, usually some data dumps
or small analysis of similar features in the past;

"./AB_Test";

"./Small_Analysis" -> We usually release a feature to only 5%-20% of the
population for technical sanity check and small analysis (actually same as
full analysis but only on most important KPIs);

"./Full_Analysis" -> 100% population Full Analysis, usually performed twice
because CXOs will require a more detailed look after reading the first full
analysis;

"./Tableau" -> put all dashboards here

3 - SQL scripts, Python scripts, Typora mds and Excel spreadsheets will be
grouped under each report sub folder

In the meantime, I'm considering writing a shell script, or a Python script to
automate creating those folders. I'm also considering using each Project
folder as the venv directory for Python, but since all projects use the same
Python package configuration (pandas, odbc, etc.) I just install packages on
the primary Python interpreter.

This is a configuration that I find to be extremely efficient to work in an
Agile environment.

------
nataz
How I take notes:

For professional life: Pen + dot grid notepad - developed independently, but
similar to the bullet journal technique. Dot grid plus pens make the whole
thing ultra customizable. I can sketch engineering designs, make a calendar,
track action items, take detailed notes, all in the same format. The key is to
be strict with page numbers, dates, and index as much as possible.

Things I occasionally miss - keyword search (I can still look things up by
date or subject in the index), multimedia inserts (think dragging
video/photos/sound clips into one note), never ending space (notebooks run out
of pages), easy backups (thinking about digitizing with photos or scans), team
collaboration (if this is necessary I use Trello).

Things I like - no OS/tech stack compatibility issues, "it just works",
lighter then a laptop/tablet, don't need to charge, easy to read, can bring
into a secure area (where outside electronics are not permitted), travels
well, hard to damage.

[http://bulletjournal.com/get-started/](http://bulletjournal.com/get-started/)

For personal life: add Google keep for simple lists, and then a mix of Trello
and dot grid for larger projects (less strict formatting than professional
life project management).

How I index using pen/paper:

Every page has a number in the upper outside corner.

Every entry into the note book has a title + subject tag, date, and the
initials of a list of people linked to that entry. For easy reading and
scanning I put all of this on one line. The title and subject are dark lined
(thick), followed by the date MM/DD/YY, and then the initials inside a ( ).
Each piece of info is separated by a ";". All of the info listed is
underlined.

under the intro line, I also break down actions, notes, calendar adds, etc
with 3-4 different symbols. All I all this makes it clear and easy to scan
quickly as you are looking for things.

Each month I have 4 or 5 pages devoted to organization.

I have a task list. Two bulleted columns. Old tasked are migrated over from
the previous month. New tasks are added as soon as they are generated.
Completed tasks get an X through the bullet. Migrated tasks get an >. Tasks
that are linked to journal entries get a page number and a tag.

I have a calendar page. 1 column, all dates of the month listed . Meetings,
important actions and events are are listed by day, or with arrows over
multiple days. Linked by tag/page number if applicable.

I have a subject index. Major tags, reoccurring subjects, get a line or two.
Page numbers with those subjects are added to the index.

I realize this sounds complicated, but it's not once you get into a routine.
The biggest this is it's okay to make "mistakes", and to get used to not
having a delete key. Change is part of the notebook. Think of it like a change
log. It's also important to be able to see what you change. Since I work in
pen, I just make a single line through things I want to change.

Note: when I finish or complete something on a task list or the calendar, I'll
mark or change the symbol, I won't cross something out just because I'm done
with it.

Finally, I have a bunch of multi color pens I use. They are all the same
brand/model, but I tend to use a different color each day. That makes it
obvious as you are scanning that you are on the next day. I don't use specific
colors for anything in particular, too hard to keep track of.

Hope this helps.

Reposted from an older thread @

[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17799232](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17799232)

