
Zuckerberg Speaks Mandarin, Blows Everyone’s Mind - hjc89
http://www.wired.com/2014/10/mark-zuckerberg-speaks-mandarin-blows-everyones-mind/
======
reuven
It comes down to:

(1) Chinese people are blown away when a Westerner speaks Chinese, and (2)
Americans are blown away by anyone who speaks Chinese.

I have been taking daily Mandarin lessons for the last few months, since I'm
traveling increasingly often to Beijing to teach programming classes (in
English), and want to be able to communicate more easily with my students and
colleagues. I'm having a super-fun time with it, and definitely feel like I'm
making progress. It's slow progress, but it's something.

My friends in the US and Israel seem to think I'm some kind of mutant super
genius for being able to learn Chinese. I keep trying to tell them that a
billion people have managed to do it, so it can't be _that_ hard, but they are
completely surprised that it's possible.

Moreover, even when I say something short and simple (with an undoubtedly very
strong American accent and mediocre tones), my Chinese friends and colleagues
are blown away, impressed by my ability to learn the language.

Zuckerberg seems to be where I hope to be in about a year or two -- namely, a
with good vocabulary, decent but imperfect grammar, and a terrible accent. I
can live with that.

The impressive thing here is the time needed to do this. Zuckerberg is a busy
guy, and taking a few hours each week to study Mandarin isn't necessarily
something that you would expect him to make time for. Then again, he just got
married and doesn't yet have children. Hmm, maybe I _am_ a mutant super genius
for learning Chinese while married, consulting, and with three children...

Regardless, my wife took this news as proof that I'm doing the right thing.
She's convinced that there will be even more people flocking to learn
Mandarin, now that Zuckerberg has shown that it's possible.

~~~
raverbashing
Or maybe "Americans are blown away by anyone who speaks another language?"

~~~
xiaoma
This is only true in bigoted European stereotypes of Americans. 20% of the
country is bilingual. In port cities such as San Francisco or New York the
ratio is much, much higher. It's just not that special. Non-Asians learning
Chinese is still somewhat special, though much less so than it was in the 90s.

~~~
tluyben2
Well it's not that strange; in many EU countries most people also only speak
their own language. I'm not sure it's more normal in the EU to speak two
languages than the US. I'm from the Netherlands so I have a skewed perspective
on all it considering all the people I know speak 3-5 languages well enough to
hold a non casual conversation. 20% is rather a tiny % for my taste anyway, so
not difficult to be an bigoted European as the chances of running into a non
1st / 2nd gen American who speaks two languages is just not very high. And
seems tv-shows / films want to push that idea a bit more by, whenever someone
blurts out a foreign sentence, making it grammatically wrong and pronunciation
wise a complete joke (no-one would recognise it as the target language if they
didn't say it explicitly). Not that i'm saying tv shows are a good reflection
of how it is, but a lot of people don't know any different... (Same vice versa
by the way).

------
ilamont
I learned Mandarin as a young adult, living in Taiwan and taking classes for
about 10 hours per week. It took about 6 months to get to the level of
vocabulary that Mark is using, and another 6 months to get to the point where
I could handle a job interview.

Mandarin syntax is surprisingly easy, with no articles or weird things like
irregular verbs or messy conjugations. The tones throw people off, and the
written characters are extremely difficult to learn (for Westerners; Japanese,
who have exposure to Chinese characters, do quite well at reading and
writing). Fortunately, there is a Romanization/phonetic system called _pinyin_
that makes it quite easy to get started with pronunciation and tones.

Yes, Mark is speaking with a very heavy accent and needs to work on his tones.
But the fact that Mark was able to get to this level without living in China
(he says he’s only visited 4 times, although it sounds like he’s able to
practice with family members, including his wife’s paternal grandmother) is
very impressive. I think it would be fair for many Chinese citizens to ask, if
the busy CEO of a major American company who seldom visits China can learn
Mandarin, why do many foreign businesspeople who have lived in China for years
fail to learn the language?

------
Argorak
It didn't blow my mind. He learned a language, quite some people do that, even
if the language is hard and remote.

Headline disproven.

Edit: it is impressive, as any language skill remote from you mother tongue.
But I am not a fan of superlatives, especially if they indicate that I should
take part in the appreciation.

FWIW: German headline on the topic: "Facebook CEO [...] impresses students".

[http://www.spiegel.de/netzwelt/web/facbeook-chef-mark-
zucker...](http://www.spiegel.de/netzwelt/web/facbeook-chef-mark-zuckerberg-
spricht-chinesisch-a-998828.html)

~~~
rmc
Quite a lot of people don't.

~~~
zhaphod
Actually context matters here.

If some one from USA/UK/France, for example, learns a new language it
definitely is a surprise. May be blows the mind is not the right word.

On the other hand, it is common for people from Southern India to know 4 or 5
languages and it is not surprising.

~~~
Keats
We do learn 2 foreign languages in France during school (English +
German/Spanish/Italian/whatever) so I'm not really sure why it would be a
surprise to hear a french speak another language. They might suck at it
though.

~~~
LunaSea
Because there's "learning" and learning.

French people "learn" german and english but are terrible at it even after
learning it for 10 years.

Scandinavian people learn english and are actually fluent with a good
pronunciation after a few years.

------
sakri
[http://qz.com/285851/the-most-important-things-mark-
zuckerbe...](http://qz.com/285851/the-most-important-things-mark-zuckerberg-
just-said-in-broken-chinese/)

|But those blown away by Zuck’s Chinese chinwag might want to know that though
he’s clearly memorized a lot of relevant words, those were still shoehorned
into a distinctly American grammatical order. Pronunciation is also a problem:
He showed a plucky disregard for the tones that Mandarin has—one tonal slip-up
had him saying that Facebook boasts eleven mobile users instead of 1
billion—and his enunciation was roughly on par with the clarity possible when
someone’s stepping on your face.

Still, I'm impressed. Mandarin is (f'n) hard, takes balls to speak a language
you don't master in front of a crowd (and subsequently all teh interwebs).

------
untog
I think that everyone saying "I know tons of people that learnt a second
language, so what" are missing the point. No, in a human being it is not that
exceptional. However, a billionaire like Mark Zuckerberg might be well
inclined to not bother, and expect everyone around him to speak his own
language. But he went out of his way to learn.

No, we shouldn't give him the Nobel Peace Prize for it, but we can say "nice,
good on you", and carry on our day.

------
IkmoIkmo
Buddy of mine told me it was pretty bad, and that when the non-rehearsed
questions came up he'd continue in English after a few words. Considering his
wife is Chinese, I can't say this is mind-blowing. I'd downvote this as a
celebrity-worship post.

------
csa
Reposted from here:
[https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8496518](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8496518)

A review of his Mandarin based on a close listen of the first 5 minutes of the
video and listening to the rest in the background while I type this (let me
know if it changes later):

tl;dr - Definitely ILR 1+, probably an ILR 2. Pronunciation needs a ton of
work, but that's not the only aspect that is measured when analyzing speech.
The foreign policy article (linked in another comment) is overly critical,
imho.

Detailed:

ILR LEVEL

He's definitely at least an ILR 1+. He shows signs of ILR 2 characteristics
(and is probably an ILR 2), but it's hard to tell if he can sustain them in a
wide range of contexts. While his pronunciation needs A LOT of work, the
language itself is comprehensible to a sympathetic native listener. I strongly
disagree with the Foreign Policy article that says it was "terrible". I would
say that it's actually kind of amazing given that he's the CEO of a huge
company. I would roughly say that he is on par with a good / above average 3rd
year student at a school with a really good Chinese program. The original
article says 2nd year, but this would be a superstar 2nd year student who was
either a heritage speaker or had spent a lot of time in China (e.g., as a
homestay or study abroad).

DISCOURSE STRUCTURE AND STYLE

He is able to sustain the dialogue for a long time. He is able to circumlocute
decently (this really opens up the ability to communicate), but I would really
like to see his range of circumlocution. He is able to string together his
sentences in moderately cohesive paragraphs. He does not demonstrate the
ability to combine paragraphs cohesively at a high level (signs of an ILR 3),
but I don't think the tasks really required it.

His style of answering questions was very American -- very direct. I don't
think that a Chinese speaker who has lived exclusively in China (i.e., not
educated or trained in the "West") would answer the same questions similarly.
In this case, I actually think that it's best for him to answer in an American
way even if he could answer in a Chinese style, but that's a different and
longer discussion.

Early on when he tells the story of his wife and her grandmother, he really
comes across as quite charming.

GRAMMAR

He does decently enough. There are errors, but it's not hard to understand
what he is saying -- especially for a sympathetic native listener. The sample
didn't really demonstrate a wide range of grammar, but the tasks didn't
necessarily require a wide range. He is able to say complex sentences (i.e.,
two independent clauses), and he is able to speak in different timeframes
(normally tenses, but Chinese tenses are not like English). This all points to
a solid ILR 2, but grammar is definitely not the toughest part of Mandarin.

VOCABULARY

He has a decent vocabulary -- it's solid for the task. I wonder what his
vocabulary is like outside of the topics of personal bio information,
Facebook, and Facebook business. If he wants to get to ILR 2+ or ILR 3, he
will need to work on the accuracy and diversity of his vocabulary.

PRONUNCIATION

This is easily his weakest point. He has a HEAVY American accent. He
mispronounces a lot of words. His tones are WAY off. He seems completely
unable to say English loan words in Chinese (e.g., Facebook, Google, etc.).
It's actually kind of hard to listen to. That being said, I would say that it
is all comprehensible to a sympathetic native listener.

SUMMARY

Overall, really good for someone who is not studying full time and has a very
involved full time job. I wonder how much of it was practiced or rehearsed --
a lot of the questions are ones that he definitely _should_ practice (e.g.,
the story about why he started studying Chinese), since they are standard
questions that would be asked to him and/or the Facebook CEO. Regardless,
speaking in a foreign language to a large group of people is not easy, and he
came across really well.

RECOMMENDATIONS

He can work on his pronunciation in several ways:

\- Listen more. Even if it's on in the background, it will help. Right now, I
don't think he has a good intuitive sense when he is mispronouncing a word.

\- When working with a teacher, do lower level language tasks, and act like a
native speaker whose voice/accent he likes. Research suggests that this lowers
affective filters for pronunciation.

\- Work with suprasegmentals with a pronunciation program that visualize what
he's saying. It can be enlightening.

\- Practice over pronouncing words. If he does what he perceives as a
"caricature" of pronouncing the word, he will probably be closer to accurate.

Other than that, listen more, read more, and I think he will become a rock-
solid ILR 2 with room for growth if he wants it.

That's my quick-and-dirty. I am very interested in the informed opinions of
others.

~~~
Swizec
A question if you will: What the hell is an ILR?

Also yay I learned a word - circumlocution.

~~~
pja
This:
[http://www.govtilr.org/skills/ILRscale1.htm](http://www.govtilr.org/skills/ILRscale1.htm)
I would imagine.

~~~
Swizec
That was the least helpful page ever ... but thanks, it pointed me in the more
helpful direction of Wikipedia.

For those wondering, here is a list of what various ILR levels entail:
[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ILR_scale](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ILR_scale)

Although I find the scale rather odd. When it comes to English, you could
easily classify me as ILR 5[1], but on account of my heavy accent and the fact
that I sometimes grope for words[2] you could put me in ILR 3. Can anyone
explain in more detail how this works? Is it subjective on part of whomever is
doing the evaluation?[3]

[1] I've published books in English and until people hear my accent they
normally mistake me for a native speaker. I also have a terribly tendency to
fix native speakers' grammar because it bothers me too much.

[2] I'm used to using two languages at once (Slovenian and English) so when
I'm put in a context where I can only use one, I start groping for words. This
happens both in English and in my native Slovenian.

[3] I remember doing IELTS tests a few years ago and I got marked down on
listening comprehension and speaking fluency because the lady expected me to
diss GMO's and I disagreed with her opinion and told her the various benefits
they bring. She thought I didn't understand what she was saying, so I had to
fake a different opinion to satisfy her expectations.

~~~
mac01021
Out of curiosity, any plans to develop your American accent (I assume you're
in the USA)?

I'm not saying you don't count as fluent unless you have a perfect accent. But
I am surprised how few foreigners, having mastered English grammar and
vocabulary, don't take that final step (leaving none the wiser about their
foreign origin).

~~~
Swizec
I've spent a lot of time in the US recently and it's normalised my accent a
lot. It's become undefinable. People back home tell me I don't sound like them
when I speak, but that I don't sound quite American either.

Americans make fun of how I pronounce certain words (which actually helps a
lot in normalising my accent), but they can't place the accent either. Nobody
guesses that I'm slavic, a lot of people ask if I'm Brazilian or from some
random European country.

A large part of the confusion probably stems from the fact I use
colloquialisms and even colloquial speech patterns, like, correctly.

With prolonged stays in the US my accent is going to normalise further, but I
think that getting completely rid of it would require some sort of accent
coach. So far the only motivation for doing so is that being told _" Wow your
English is so good!"_ is getting annoying. I was proud when people told me
that ten years ago, but it feels silly now.

But a big benefit of maintaining my foreigner status is the freedom it affords
me. I can use British slang, Aussie slang, East coast slang, West coast slang,
even Canadian slang and nobody minds or finds it odd. Whereas if I sounded
like somebody who grew up in California and used a British turn of phrase, it
would sound hella weird.

And, obviously, I feel a certain level of smugness when I use British words
that Americans don't understand because then I get to call them plebes and
mock them with my larger vocabulary. (Americans get really upset when a
foreigner is better at something than they are, it's funny)

------
tmikaeld
That actually IS impressive, Mandarin is very hard to learn and he should have
credit for it.

Though I'm sure he had a really good teacher.

------
sz4kerto
He learned a language that's fundamentally different from his mother tongue.

Impressive. In my home country, you can't get your graduate degree without
speaking 2 languages besides your mother tongue -- and the difference between
English and Hungarian is not really smaller than English vs. Mandarin.

------
wobbleblob
Do people find it remarkable that he is able to speak a foreign language? Most
people in the world are able to converse in more than one language. Or is it
remarkable that a foreigner speaks Chinese?

~~~
Shish2k
"Remarkable that an American realises a world outside the USA exists at all"
would be the stereotype :P

(Not necessarily an accurate one; but as a European, that seems to be how the
average American is viewed)

------
cafard
Did his wife speak it in the home when growing up, or was she put the weekend
schools I hear of ABC (American-born Chinese) kids going through? She could
certainly help him if so.

------
readerrrr
Everybody should be learning something in their free time, unfortunately
watching media with the lowest common denominator( mostly daytime TV and
sitcoms ) is the most prevalent and it is the worst at the same time. Youtube
is becoming a replacement for that and allows and hosts really educating
stuff( lectures, languages with subtitles ), but it is just too easy to switch
to it from TV and keep watching crap.

------
reuven
I'm much more amazed that so many people around the world have managed to
learn English at a high enough level that they can work and study in it.

------
chaghalibaghali
Very impressive, Mandarin is one of the most difficult languages for native
English speakers to learn:
[http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Wikibooks:Language_Learning_Dif...](http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Wikibooks:Language_Learning_Difficulty_for_English_Speakers)

~~~
xiaoma
Mandarin is the easiest of any of the Chinese languages. It only has four
tones instead of seven or more, there are a wealth of language teaching
materials and a lot of natively-produced media, ranging from children's books
to near-hollywood scale move productions.

Cantonese, on the other hand, has a decent amount of media but relatively
little in terms of materials aimed at teaching foreigners.

Taiwanese learners have a decent amount of local television and music to lean
on if/once they reach a high level of competence, but there isn't even a
standardized written language! Instead there are the following horrible
options:

1) Use an essentially unworkable system of trying to apply patchy etymological
research of Taiwanese going back to middle Chinese to guess which characters
modern syllable could be represented by.

2)Picking characters with similar Mandarin pronunciations, using a romanized
script. This has the drawback that Taiwanese has several sounds and tones that
Mandarin doesn't.

3) Use a well developed and self-consistent romanization (aka our alphabet)
system developed by missionaries over a century ago. This is pretty decent but
there are competing romanizations.

4) Use a mishmash of characters and roman letters together. This is very
common.

One advantage both Cantonese and Taiwanese hold over smaller languages is that
it's not too hard to find speaker communities in just about any major world
city and many of those speakers are fully fluent only in that one language and
find Mandarin to be a painful alternative. If you want to study an American
Indian language like Blackfoot, you'll have the additional problem that every
speaker of it is bilingual in English.

All in all, I don't think Mandarin ranks anywhere near the most difficult
option for English speakers. It's certainly harder than romance languages, but
in the big scheme of things it's of medium difficulty at worst.

~~~
song
Definitely, learning Mandarin is way easier than any of the dialects. I tried
to learn Teochew to communicate with my wife's family but the lack of learning
materials and of romanization system similar to pinyin for Teochew makes it
very difficult to learn.

------
NicoJuicy
Does anyone has some experience with this, i speak Dutch, German, English
(Germanic languages) and French (Latin language).

I suppose it would be easier for me to learn Spanish or another language. But
would it also help me to learn Mandarin?

~~~
sergiosgc
Similarity in European languages helps. I speak Portuguese natively. It means
Spanish is very easy and Italian a bit more difficult, but can be both picked
up "by ear" just listening to TV shows. French is the first latin language
that really required formal teaching to learn. English is taught at school
from an early age, so while I recognize I'd never pick it up autonomously, it
is now in the area of "easy languages".

Mandarin is probably so far from European languages that I can't even identify
the expected learning roadblocks.

P.S: kudos on speaking Dutch. Amazingly difficult language. Tough
pronunciation, strange grammar (for us coming from non-germanic languages at
least).

------
drakeballew
Here's a working translation of the Q&A, if there's not one already.
[https://medium.com/unbabel-news/b4cb8f223df2](https://medium.com/unbabel-
news/b4cb8f223df2)

------
gtirloni
Is this TMZ now?

