
The Cashless Society Is a Creepy Fantasy - kushti
https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2016-10-14/the-cashless-society-is-a-creepy-fantasy
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jimmywanger
Having no cash is the authoritarian's fantasy.

When every transaction is trackable, everything is taxable and able to be fed
into big data.

"Sorry, sir, we can't sell you health insurance. Our records show that you've
been purchasing too much alcohol."

"Excuse me sir, we're from the local police. We're concerned that you've
recently bought 500 rounds of 22lr ammunition (and that's a perfectly
reasonable amount). Mind coming down to the station and answering some
questions?"

Edit:

And of course, the ever popular.

"Hey, we noticed you bought a used car. Based on your finances you shouldn't
have been able to afford it, according to our calculations, unless you've been
getting paid without notifying us. We already know what you spend and how you
spend it, and how much money you make. You're going to prison for tax fraud."

~~~
90002
It's incredible how ignorant some folks can be when it comes to why cash is
still considered king today. For one, half of all small transactions (less
than $50) are made in cash.

OH the other day in Palo Alto: "Cash will no longer be a thing in 5 years."

Sorry, we are still roughly 200 years away from achieving this authoritarian
fantasy, if we are to consider the current rate of decline of payments made in
cash. I wish folks would leave their suburban bubble for once and talk with
real people across America, especially those living at the bottom of the
pyramid.

~~~
kylebenzle
Only if you consider cryptocurrency "cash". Otherwise, plenty of people are
already living exclusively on bitcoin today with many benefits and few of the
scare mongering issues. I can't imagine the masses are still 2 whole
generations from catching up, I'd think about 10 years would be enough.

~~~
dpark
> _Otherwise, plenty of people are already living exclusively on bitcoin
> today_

Citation needed? This seems hard to believe unless "plenty of people" is in
the ballpark of maybe a dozen.

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AReallyGoodName
Not a fantasy. In Australia contactless payment using smart cards is now
everywhere, even in the small news outlets, food stalls and coffee shops. I
bought lunch at a small shop just a minute ago with one.

For things like buying second hand cards we also have a pretty good online
direct deposit system where you can just transfer money online.

Cash is losing the war here, check out the graph in the following article
showing the dwindling usage of cash.

[http://www.heraldsun.com.au/business/why-our-looming-
cashles...](http://www.heraldsun.com.au/business/why-our-looming-cashless-
society-will-come-at-a-devastating-cost/news-
story/132727caa08bb90dfba57cca68c2b578)

~~~
Vanit
Fellow Australian here, basically completely cashless. Only withdraw cash if I
have an immediate reason.

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BoringAsian
"Having no cash is the authoritarian's fantasy."

That's a giant step in logic that I can't understand yet. How come more
cashless societies seem less authoritarian then ones that societies that use
cash? E.g. Britain compared to Russia. Sweden is one of the most cashless
societies and they seem far from expressing authoritarian traits. I bought a
greg's using a contactless card and I haven't felt this strange grip of
authoritarian fear. I guess it is better to say

"Having no cash means you can speculate a authoritarian's fantasy easier"

~~~
audunw
> Sweden is one of the most cashless societies and they seem far from
> expressing authoritarian traits.

I believe this is because of a critical fact about scandinavian countries:

People trust the government, and by exchange, the government makes themselves
trustworthy to the people.

It seems to me that people in the US has a deep distrust for the government.
This may be because the government there is less trustworthy to start with,
but I think it also goes the other way around. It creates an "us vs them"
mentality which makes politicians and government workers have less respect for
the people they serve.

I do agree with some of the points of the OP though. We shouldn't need some
bank AND credit card company to stand between us and payments to other people
and the government. Before we make the switch to cashless, we should have some
kind of cryptocurrency. I don't care if it's created by the government, and
that new currency is injected by them according to their monetary policy. I
don't care if the government can see how much I have in that currency, as long
as only they can. All I care about is being able to settle payments without
being dependent on a bunch of private, opaque bank and payment companies, and
their opaque infrastructure.

~~~
squozzer
You have a point but let me make a counter -- it's the subordinate who must
prove their trustworthiness to the superior. Which in your view, seems to be
the people and their government, respectively.

If you had said, "The government acts in a trustworthy manner, and the people,
in turn, trust their government", then our viewpoints would be in alignment.

------
lmm
> The crime-fighting case against cash is overstated. Last year, a risk
> assessment of money laundering and terrorist financing conducted by the U.K.
> government found that regulated institutions such as banks (like HSBC) and
> accountancy service providers (like the Panamanian tax-shelter specialist
> Mossack Fonseca) posed the highest risk of facilitating the illicit storage
> or movement of funds. Cash came in a close third, but if we’re going to cite
> unlawful transactions as a rationale for banning cash, it only makes sense
> to ban banks and accounting firms first.

This is specious logic. Stricter regulations on banking and accounting _are_
being introduced, and even if they weren't, that wouldn't be an argument for
doing nothing about cash.

And yeah, america-centric article is america-centric. The author should try
living in a place with low cash use for a while. Their concerns are real, but
unlikely to carry much weight with the public when held up against a) the
inconvenience of cash and b) the reality that it's mainly used not by valiant
freedom fighters but by common criminals.

------
dmytroi
Currently Sweden is on a race to be first cashless society: many shops
completely stopped accepting cash (many also started to use iZettle [1]),
people usually simply don't carry cash with them, and if it happens that you
need to send money to other person: Swish [2] is to the rescue, which is
direct bank-to-bank money transfer system for small amounts.

On other hand everything is traceable, you can call tax office and ask who is
get paid what, if you want to know where the person lives: just hitta.se them
by name, you will also get avg income for household there.

\- [1] [https://www.izettle.com/](https://www.izettle.com/) \- [2]
[https://www.getswish.se/](https://www.getswish.se/)

~~~
jamesblonde
At flea-markets, i think about 90% of all transactions are non-cash in Sweden.
It's nearly all Swish. Swish is amazing - it's mobile payments supported by
all the banks with no transaction cost. You type in somebody's phone number,
the amount to give them, then authenticate it with your pin code (using a cert
issued by your bank - basically another app).

------
spiderfarmer
I cash ever dissappears there will be other things of value that can be
traded.

~~~
buro9
This already happens. On the estate I grew up the base currencies people
traded with were sexual favours, soft drugs, and stolen bicycles.

------
TulliusCicero
Cash sucks. One of the annoyances of having just moved from SV to Munich is
that credit cards are often not accepted and you need to use cash. In the bay
area, I used cash only very rarely, and it was glorious.

~~~
throwaway7767
> One of the annoyances of having just moved from SV to Munich is that credit
> cards are often not accepted and you need to use cash.

The benefit is lower prices. Credit cards have high transaction fees, and the
contracts generally prohibit the merchant from adding those to the cost of the
transaction. So everyone, regardless of payment method, pays higher prices if
the store accepts credit cards.

~~~
TulliusCicero
Handling cash has its own logistical overhead, though, so this is debatable.

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drKarl
In my opinion, a cashless society would make some cryptocurrencies like
Monero, which enforces privacy, anonimity and fungibility, take off and start
to spread its adoption more broadly.

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squozzer
Keep in mind a completely trackable currency would require more creativity in
funding political "dirty tricks" a la Nixon and his (spiritual) successors.

------
dbbk
In the UK. I never carry cash on me. Hell, you can't even USE cash anymore on
public transport here in London.

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blazespin
Clearly this guy hasn't heard of something called precious metals, art,
diamonds, blah blah blah

------
ChoHag
For reasons to tired too explain, I've been without a bank account (and
therefore also credit/debit card) for a couple of months.

Nightmare. And scary as hell. And when it's not "official" c/d cards, its the
shop points or the we're-not-a-bank-honest-guv quasi-debit-cards; it's
impossible to catch a bus in London now without a tracking device^W^Woyster
card.

Luckily for me I've only returned to this decadent backwater for a brief
period before I head back to the glorious freedom (for once not a sarcasm in
sight) of the ex-USSR. I feel disgusted that I had to write that.

Edit: And I think I'd like to add that despite the pain, I don't plan on
getting any kind of card and may end up regaining a bank account but only as a
_nother_ means of converting my bitcoin to whatever the locals call cash.

Edit 2: And another thing. I tried to book a driving test in the UK. Wasn't
able to do it online, even to book and pay later, without using a ( _non-
government_ ) bank account and ( _foreign_ ) clearing house. Apparently a
postal method is available. Our governments themselves are starting to require
banks and credit/debit in order to interact with them.

~~~
anexprogrammer
Everywhere else in the UK you can still pay cash on buses. I'm slightly taken
aback that London bus thinks cash is no longer worthy as every time I've been
on a bus everyone pays cash or has weekly pass.

I pay cash nearly everywhere, card is for online only. I'll be a long way
towards the back of the cashless adoption!

~~~
TulliusCicero
> I'm slightly taken aback that London bus thinks cash is no longer worthy as
> every time I've been on a bus everyone pays cash or has weekly pass.

Paying cash on the bus substantially slows down the bus. It makes sense to get
rid of that transaction.

~~~
ChoHag
As a long-time passenger I'm OK with that, and I'd be even more OK with that
if they remembered what customer fucking service was and brought back the
conductors.

It's[+] my city and it can damn-well run the way I want it to. And that
doesn't include 100% surveillance.

[+] Was, sadly. I like London. But it's shit.

Edit: Formatting.

Further edit: In fact I've lived in London most of my life and experience
suggests a scenario which is distressingly common: Are you one of those cunts
who tuts and sighs[ø] when a little old lady gets on the bus and takes (horror
of horrors!) more than 10 seconds to pay her fare and find a seat? FUCK YOU.
You don't deserve the air you breathe.

[ø] For those who live outside the M25, this is the London equivalent of a
near-violent argument between strangers.

