
Where Dutch directness comes from - rwx------
http://www.bbc.com/travel/story/20180131-where-dutch-directness-comes-from
======
tdons

      > We chose our seats and waited, but the waiter was nowhere to be seen.
      > When he finally materialised, seemingly out of nowhere, he didn’t ask ‘What would you like to order’, or ‘What can I get you?’.
      > He said ‘What do you want?’.
      > Maybe it was the fact that he’d said it in English, or maybe he was just having a bad day, but I was shocked nonetheless.
    

This is a direct translation of the Dutch "wat wilt u hebben?" which is in
fact rather polite. The above anecdote is just a case of a waiter who hasn't
yet learned the nuances of English ("What do you want?" is something you'd say
to someone bothering you)

    
    
      > “I think the Netherlands are a place where… no-one is going to pretend.
      > [For example], when you say something in a business meeting that is not a very smart suggestion, people will always point it out,” he said.
    

I'd say this is true.

    
    
      > “You don’t talk too loudly on the train because it’s not too nice for the people in your compartment; you don’t play your music too loud in your apartment because it’s not so nice for your neighbours; there is this constant calibrating of your own behaviour,” Coates explained.
      > But in the Netherlands, there is “the sense that people have the right to say whatever they want and be as direct as they want. And if other people don’t like that, it’s their fault for getting offended.”
    

This paragraph conflates being a decent and considerate human being with being
direct. We (the Dutch) could do the former better, there's no excuse for being
loud or noisy on a train and it has nothing to do with being direct.

    
    
      > “You sit in a restaurant with a friend and they will happily, in a room full of strangers, talk quite loudly about their medical problems or their parents’ divorce or their love life.
      > They see no reason to keep it a secret.”
    

I'd say this is true, I do this. I don't care what people around me think
about me (but I do go out of my way not to inconvenience people.

    
    
      > But Breukel disagrees with the premise that the Dutch don’t have taboo topics.
      > “We don’t discuss salaries, we don’t discuss pensions.
    

Might be a generational thing, I do discuss this.

~~~
prophet_
I once went for the first time to visit a Dutch acquaintance and before I
entered the bathroom for a shower I was asked "not to take a long shower
because of the electricity costs."

Dutch directness at its finest.

~~~
donkeyd
I am Dutch and I would also need a moment to process that request. I would
never ask a guest to shower short because of the energy cost. Unless, of
course, they stick around for a year and tend to shower for 2 hours each day.
This is more about being frugal than being Dutch.

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Systemic33
In all honesty, a lot of this “directness” comes down to the fact that literal
translations sound a lot harsher in English than what the non-native speaker
necessarily meant.

In Denmark there’s the same sort of experience by foreigners, and I’ve heard
it happens in Germany as well.

The situation is that in the local language, there’s a lot subtlety that
simply gets lost in translation.

You can probably throw a little culturally bluntness on it as well, but the
majority is down to translation.

~~~
dmichulke
I don't think so.

For your argument to hold, the Dutch (or Danish or Germans) should be
perceived as more polite when speaking English, yet they aren't.

Either this or they all speak bad English (which is unlikely due to speaking
other Germanic languages and getting 50% of their colloquial American English
via Netflix and/or Hollywood)

~~~
roenxi
I spend a lot of time talking about engineering problems, the word 'failure'
now means something very specific to me. It means 'didn't work as intended'.
If my cup leaks a bit, that is failure. Often things fail for very good
reasons.

That is really, really different from what failure means in everyday English,
which is much closer to 'somebody didn't succeed due to a neglect of duty'. I
usually regret the times I use the word failure in conversation, because in my
head it has come to mean something that is really quite mild. I typically
can't convey that to a normal listener if I reflexively slip it into a
conversation.

Maybe a literal translation from another language loses subtlety and becomes
harsher following a similar principle? Each word has a range of meanings, and
the closest word in a different language won't ever quite cover the same
ground.

~~~
pwagland
This is, of course, also true.

However, at least in the case of the Dutch, there is more to it than that. The
Dutch have no problems saying "that's not right" whether they say that in
Dutch or English, that particular phrase translates to the same thing (Dat
klopt niet vs that's not right). And they have no problems (in general) saying
that to a stranger, their boss, or their subordinate.

~~~
mantas
Who would have a problem stating "that's not right" if something is indeed
wrong? Americans seem to have no problems to say this either.

The only case I could come up with is Indians. But maybe that's just my
experience with cheap outsourcing...

~~~
pwagland
Well, the author of the article is assumedly from the UK. In general, this is
not what they would say. They would say something like "respectfully, I'm not
sure that's correct". One is a lot more "direct" than the other.

~~~
mantas
Do people actually say that in their daily lives? I thought that's only IT
Crowd over-the-top joke :|

~~~
Smaug123
More like "Are you sure? I'm worried that <opposite of thing interlocutor just
said>." or "Sorry, I think it's actually <opposite>". Both in an apologetic
tone. The word "respectfully" sounds like it's trying too hard: it's a bit
overtly subordinate and ingratiating.

------
bkor
> My Dutch teacher later explained that the Dutch are very direct – and
> nowhere are they so direct as they are in Amsterdam.

That's weird, I always hear that people in Rotterdam are the most direct ones
within Netherlands.

It's funny to read this article where someone gives an example that instead of
giving loads of reasons to see a doctor you should ask to see a doctor. To me
it's entirely strange you don't just ask for it. It comes across as being not
too bright (why don't you conclude this yourself instead of talking endlessly
about it with me).

I work with Danish people, they're pretty direct as well. It quite frustrates
me if there's some issue and someone keeps on complaining/discussing with
random people instead of raising it with the person who has the ability to
make a change. I highly appreciate my style of working.

I've worked with people from all over the world and likely annoyed quite a few
of them. That said, usually once they grasp that they can tell me things
straightforwardly they tend to appreciate it.

~~~
aerique
In Rotterdam and The Hague they're probably more direct, but the people in
Amsterdam are just better at PR and marketing themselves :-)

~~~
midasz
Rotterdam? Don't you mean Amsterdam-Harbor?

~~~
mcv
Amsterdam has its own harbour, thank you very much.

------
lukasm
It's not Dutch that are direct. It's Brits that are indirect. As one lad from
England told me: "If you cycle to work, forget to shower and stinks, no one
would say anything to you, but they would report you to the manager :)"

~~~
detritus
Brit here — I've twice in my career encountered this, once as a youngling,
once as a director — both times were broached directly and covertly with the
..er.. offending parties.

I'm from the North, if that makes any difference. I do tend to view
Southerners as generally a bit less direct.

------
dtech
From the Dutch point of view, other cultures are just needlessly beating
around the bush constantly.

~~~
hocuspocus
Not all of them. I miss working with Finns.

~~~
geertj
Lol, yes, I always loved working with the Finns. I am Dutch myself, so pretty
direct, but the Finns take it up to a different level. I remember a business
meeting for which I traveled to Helsinki. After a 1 minute intro, our customer
spoke uninterrupted for 20 minutes, explaining in great detail why our product
completely sucked. It was very useful actually, because the feedback was
factual and demonstrated a great understanding of the problem. There was no
time wasting or sugarcoating.

------
circlefavshape
To the Americans - you guys are very direct too, in my experience (compared to
the Irish and English), perhaps that's why you haven't noticed it in the
Netherlands?

~~~
rb666
I think you haven't experienced Dutch directness if you think Americans are
direct.

------
zemanel
I moved to the Netherlands from the UK (where nothing happens without someone
saying “please” or “are you sure ?” at least two times) year ago.

Dutch directnesss was something that would freeze the blood in my veins at
first but after getting the hang of it, i’ve come to enjoy it (they can be
direct but another good thing is you can be direct back), because if they
don’t have patience for BS, neither do i.

------
Tade0
_Breukel advised me to start with the subject – for example, ‘I would like an
appointment’ – instead of listing all the reasons why I should see the
doctor._

Interesting, because that's how it's expected to be done where I come
from(Poland). Even "better" \- the person on the other end will often
interrupt you with a follow-up question to the the statement you hesitated to
say.

------
bjourne
It has been asserted by adherents to certain political groups that their
voices are being suppressed by the establishment. E.g the alt right. If that
is true and the article's premise is true, "Dutch people have the right to say
whatever they want and be as direct as they want. And if other people don’t
like that, it’s their fault for getting offended." then it must be so that
open support for alt right is much stronger than in the Netherlands than in
Britain.

But alt right is (afaik) much stronger in Britain than in the Netherlands. It
follows that Dutch people either aren't as direct as the article claims or
that alt right sentiment isn't being suppressed.

~~~
pwagland
Your argument is based on incorrect assumptions.

You are assuming that the only reason for _not_ being in the alt-right, is the
fear of offending someone. I would argue that this is exactly the inverse in
real life.

If issues are discussed openly, then you often find that you can reach a
middle ground through discussion.

The second premise is also incorrect, since there _is_ a large alt-right
faction in the Netherlands. To all intents and purposes the second largest
political party is an alt-right party.

------
Wildgoose
I'm a Yorkshireman. We have a reputation within the UK for being plain-spoken
and direct as well. It goes without saying that I prefer it to "mealy-mouthed"
speech that doesn't get to the point.

------
Fnoord
(TL;DR: "And although I may complain about Dutch directness, I’m grateful to
live in a country that allows me to be just that." You're living in Amsterdam
[1], not The Netherlands.)

I am from The Netherlands and I'd say this article paints a bit rose-tinted
glasses plus anecdotal evidence so allow me to present a can of nuances.

For example, the directness phenomenon isn't as widespread as it is everywhere
in The Netherlands. I'm originally from the more rural south (a Catholic area)
and its very much different than where I live now (Amsterdam Area). South is
more.. "Burgundian" and less direct. Both have their charms but its annoying
when outsiders equal Amsterdam or (big cities in) Holland with The
Netherlands.

An example where directness backfires: when I go to a restaurant in Germany or
when I get my train ticket checked in Germany I feel treated more like a
gentleman. _Service_ is flat out better over there. I'd suggest to consider
this to be attributed to "Deutsche Gründlichkeit" but I'm not so arrogant to
assume there are no other possible reasons. Anthropology is rather complex...

Another example of rose-tinted glasses is "Many of the older houses in the
Netherlands have big windows, allowing visitors – if they so wish – to peep
inside." everywhere I look there's tools used to close the windows be it small
or large. And they're often used. Another typical thing in The Netherlands is
that gardens are walled to denote which part is who's.

Or this one: "The Netherlands is unique in the way it treats topics such as
prostitution, drugs and euthanasia." Perhaps the 3 of them as a package, but
Christian CDA made mushrooms illegal in the '00s, coffeeshops are getting
closed and are not allowed to be too close to schools (good luck with dense
areas), and the Red Light District is less red nowadays. A country like
Portugal also has decriminalized drugs. Euthenasia is also getting adopted
more often in other countries (let us not forget Belgium and Canada [2]), and
btw it has very strict rules in The Netherlands. The Christians dislike it as
well.

"Proverbs such as ‘Doe maar normaal, dan ben je al gek genoeg’ (just be
normal, that’s already crazy enough) or ‘Stek je hoofd niet boven het maaiveld
uit’ (don’t put your head above the ground) are there to remind us that we are
all the same." These stem very much from Calvinism.

Leo Blokhuis made a 8 part series "Achter De Dijken" about Calvinism in The
Netherlands [3]. I found it very good. It is in Dutch and probably geolocked
to be only available for Dutch IPs, but series like these should work over VPN
or be available on Usenet. Also, other public broadcast television might've
bought the rights and provided translation, I don't know. Maybe it is even
possible to suggest it to your public broadcast TV station? Even that series,
however, is a caricature/generalisation.

[1] Or as others provided with nuance: "a big city in Holland"

[2]
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legality_of_euthanasia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legality_of_euthanasia)

[3] [https://www.kro-ncrv.nl/achterdedijken](https://www.kro-
ncrv.nl/achterdedijken)

~~~
flor1s
I wonder how popular downloading via Usenet is outside of The Netherlands,
where me and my friends shared an account in high school. Here in Japan it
seems no-one is using it (for downloading).

~~~
Fnoord
As per [1] the tier 1 providers are practically all located in the USA and The
Netherlands.

[1]
[https://www.reddit.com/r/usenet/wiki/providers](https://www.reddit.com/r/usenet/wiki/providers)

------
neor
"and nowhere are they so direct as they are in Amsterdam"

Rotterdam is a lot more direct than Amsterdam.

------
eggie5
from an american in Amsterdam, i've never experienced this directness thing...

~~~
Udik
Same for me (I'm Italian).

Sometimes I wonder if this directness thing isn't just a myth started by the
British, for whom the norm is politeness often verging on pure and simple
hypocrisy.

~~~
prophet_
I don't think it is necessarily hypocrisy, there are several ways to tell the
truth.

When one cannot be polite, soft spoken, considerate, or just lacks tact, one
can always go the Dutch way. Why bother?

~~~
Udik
I can only point you to the famous British English - rest of the world
conversion table:

[https://bridgesandtangents.files.wordpress.com/2012/02/engli...](https://bridgesandtangents.files.wordpress.com/2012/02/english1.jpg)

------
mrarjen
The people I have offended this way is crazy... it's not meant as an insult,
but as the article states "what do you want" is already shocking, so just
imagine if anything more direct is asked. :(

~~~
Smaug123
If you're looking for advice here, most people will be much more forgiving if
you open with something like "I'm afraid this isn't my first language, forgive
me if I get things wrong", delivered with a sunny smile, as one of the first
things you say. (I'm a Brit; this is intended for speaking to Brits.)

------
imartin2k
As a German, I wonder if the Dutch beat us in regards to directness. Anyone
can compare? I’ve actually never been to the Netherlands.

~~~
clu3l355
I feel the Dutch are a lot more casual about it and less grumpy. Germans are
direct when unhappy about something ("don't be so loud", "get your feet of the
seats"), but are much more likely to stare disapprovingly. Dutch are also more
direct when talking about themselves/their feelings - you would never hear a
German say "my new haircut looks great"

~~~
imartin2k
Interesting, thanks!

------
mcv
It's not entirely true that the Dutch are always honest and direct.

I think that the real key to Dutch etiquette is efficiency. If it makes things
go faster, it's good. You hold a door open for someone (irrespective of
gender) only if it's efficient for both of you to do so. Directness is more
efficient than beating around the bush, honesty is more efficient than a
comfortable lie when it concerns an issue that's going to have to be dealt
with at some point. Picking fights with people is not efficient. That's a
waste of everybody's time.

    
    
      > when you say something in a business meeting that is not a very smart suggestion, people will always point it out,” he said.
    

Because it's inefficient to waste time on a stupid idea.

    
    
      > “You don’t talk too loudly on the train because it’s not too nice for the people in your compartment; you don’t
      > play your music too loud in your apartment because it’s not so nice for your neighbours; there is this constant
      > calibrating of your own behaviour,” Coates explained. But in the Netherlands, there is “the sense that people
      > have the right to say whatever they want and be as direct as they want. And if other people don’t like that,
      > it’s their fault for getting offended.”
    

I disagree. Most Dutch also don't talk loudly on the train. In fact, the Dutch
are pretty good at minding their own business and ignoring whatever other
people are doing. Bothering other people with your business is wasting their
time. Of course jerks exist, but excessive noise is usually not appreciated.

    
    
      > One time, I found myself at the supermarket staring with disbelief at the groceries that had spilled out of my
      > hands onto the floor. Within seconds, I was surrounded by no fewer than 10 Dutch people, all of them giving me
      > advice on what to do. But not one lifted a finger. To me, the situation was obvious: I needed help immediately.
      > But the Dutch saw it differently: unless I specifically asked for help, it probably wasn’t necessary.
    

This may actually be a case of politeness. Maybe you've got everything under
control and are perfectly capable of picking up your own things. If not,
people stand ready to help, but if you don't ask, they will assume you don't
need help. They don't want to intrude on your business unasked. Unless it
becomes obvious that you do need help (but the Bystander Effect can be
strong).

    
    
      > “Calvinism dictated the individual responsibility for moral salvage from the sinful world through introspection,
      > total honesty, soberness, rejection of ‘pleasure’ as well as the ‘enjoyment’ of wealth,”
    

Yet the Dutch do like to relax and enjoy themselves. We're world champions at
part-time work, and hate the 50-hour weeks that Americans too often work. In
fact, I don't think any country in Europe works less hours per year than we
do. We don't want to waste time on silly nonsense, unless it's silly nonsense
that we enjoy.

Though if there's one taboo, it's definitely conspicuous displays of wealth.
Millionaires better pretend they're normal people like the rest of us. We've
always been a very egalitarian society. Even in the 18th century, our
transport network of river barges transported all passengers in the same
cabin, whether they were nobility or peasants.

    
    
      > This straightforwardness is so intrinsic in Dutch society that there’s even a Dutch word for it:
      > bespreekbaarheid (speakability) – that everything can and should be talked about; there are no taboo topics.
    

Not entirely. A topic can be "bespreekbaar", but it's technically also
possible for a topic to be "onbespreekbaar": not up for discussion. Usually,
people tend to want to make things "bespreekbaar", because that enables honest
discussion and more efficient sharing of information, but there are
exceptions.

    
    
      > Many of the older houses in the Netherlands have big windows, allowing visitors – if they so wish – to peep inside.
    

But it's rude if you actually do it. Many houses do have curtains to create
privacy, but even if they don't, it's not okay to go peeping into other
people's windows. That's intruding on other people's business again.

    
    
      > “You sit in a restaurant with a friend and they will happily, in a room full of strangers, talk quite
      > loudly about their medical problems or their parents’ divorce or their love life. They see no reason to
      > keep it a secret.”
    

_If_ it's something they want to discuss. If the topic needs to be addressed
for whatever reason, they address it.

    
    
      > “We don’t discuss salaries, we don’t discuss pensions. Anything to do with luxury. We don’t talk about how
      > beautiful our house is. We don’t discuss how big our car is,” 
    

Not quite. Conspicuous displays of wealth are not done. Showing off a nice
house is totally fine, as long as you don't present it as evidence you're
better than others. Salaries used to be taboo, because differences in pay
smell of class differences, but that's changing, because clearly salary
negotiations are more efficient if you know what your coworkers get.

~~~
thijsvandien
This is the part of it that I like and hold on to. No ceremony, straight to
the point. What I wouldn’t mind losing is the needlessly giving opinions about
everything. Especially commenting on what could be better when it concerns
things that can hardly be changed at all. If nobody’s asking, keep it to
yourself, unless you’re confident you’re adding something to the conversation.
In my experience, most opinions come out when there’s nothing else to talk
about.

~~~
mcv

      > What I wouldn’t mind losing is the needlessly giving opinions about everything. Especially
      > commenting on what could be better when it concerns things that can hardly be changed at all.
    

Is that specifically a Dutch thing? I definitely do that.

~~~
thijsvandien
Hard to say, but it's just a different kind of outspokenness. I mostly became
aware of it when staying in Central/Eastern European countries. Communism has
taught people there to be hesitant to give their opinion, even more so when
not asked for it. It certainly helped to tone it down a bit myself.

------
mpweiher
"...people have the right to say whatever they want and be as direct as they
want. And if other people don’t like that, it’s their fault for getting
offended."

Hear hear.

~~~
dazc
I only know 3 Dutch people. 2 are polite, intelligent, reliable and an
absolute pleasure to deal with. The other is a complete asshole.

Guess which of them lives by the mantra of being 'as direct as they want'?

~~~
stevenh
I wonder if they feel the same way about you.

~~~
dazc
In 2 cases, I certainly hope so. With the other guy, I couldn't care less.

edited...

~~~
mosselman
So with the 2 nice persons you hope they don't feel the same way? Interesting
;)

~~~
dazc
Yeah, now I have had time to put my brain in gear. ;)

