
A Study of Meditation Under the Influence of Psilocybin - say_it_as_it_is
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-019-50612-3
======
omarchowdhury
Combining psychedelics with meditation opens the very real risk of
conditioning one's meditation practice to require psychedelics to have any
efficacy. When not taking psychedelics and meditating one will attempt to re-
create or grasp after the pleasant sensations and thoughts previously
experienced, which severs one from looking into the present moment as it is.

This undistracted state of [the] _ordinary mind_ is the meditation. One will
understand it in due course. Gampopa (d. 1153)

~~~
acollins1331
There is a reason the many eastern religions that were the inspiration for a
lot of new age ideas forbid drugs and alcohol. While you can have drug induced
trances similar to meditation, in Zen they call it "losing your self", the
entire point is to be able to develop that skill and point of view without a
chemical aid. Not only is it a problem by being used as a crutch as you
describe, but there's no guarantee it's experience is similar enough to
naturally losing your self to be useful in the same ways.

Cool study though

~~~
proverbialbunny
Buddhism's ban is on drugs that cause heedlessness. It can be argued magic
mushrooms do not cause heedlessness, so they are not banned in many circles.

It becomes opinionated as to what causes heedlessness, so there is a divide
between groups when it comes to what one is and isn't allowed, so I get you
could argue magic mushrooms should not be allowed.

As food for thought, brain scans show mushrooms lights up the brain in a near
identical way to jhanic meditation, so it's common to use mushrooms as an
advertisement. "One day you can do this with meditation."

~~~
spicymaki
I would immediately question the seriousness of those Buddhist circles.
Dependency on magic mushrooms to shortcut through the path violates the spirit
of Buddhism.

Technically the fifth precept is about alcohol: Surāmerayamajjapamādaṭṭhānā
veramaṇī sikkhāpadaṃ samādiyāmi -> I undertake the precept to refrain from
fermented drink which lead to heedlessness. However, the hermeneutical
understanding of that precept is it applies to any mind-altering substance.
Why? Because losing control of yourself can trigger violating other precepts.
For example intoxicants could lead to sexual misconduct which can lead to
lying, and so on.

~~~
proverbialbunny
>Dependency on magic mushrooms to shortcut through the path violates the
spirit of Buddhism.

I wouldn't call it a short cut. I hope I didn't accidentally imply it is.
Wisdom is built up through experience, be it meditative experience, social
experiences (like dispelling ill-will), or written experiences (like suttas).
When there is enough wisdom from awareness the fetter of ignorance breaks.
There is no short cut when it comes to dispelling ignorance and
misunderstanding.

>However, the hermeneutical understanding of that precept is it applies to any
mind-altering substance. Why? Because losing control of yourself can trigger
violating other precepts. For example intoxicants could lead to sexual
misconduct which can lead to lying, and so on.

I would say losing control of yourself is heedlessness. There isn't a loss of
control when it comes to magic mushrooms. However, you could argue magic
mushrooms causes heedlessness because you can't control how long the
meditative-like state is, which could be a reason to ban it. What magic
mushrooms do is increase awareness.

Buddhist tradition does it's best to not offend. Because Buddhism tries not to
offend, the general rule of thumb is: if it's illegal in that part of the
world, Buddhism does not encourage law breaking behavior. Where I live, for
example, magic mushrooms are legal. There are many places in the world where
they are unregulated. Likewise, in many circles in the west, over 50% of new
practitioners came from psychedelics often having seen a glimpse of nirvana
and are looking for that. Some come from yoga too. The idea is to let those
people know there is more out there, so they don't get stuck.

I'm not trying to take sides here or say it's right or wrong. I'm just trying
to help.

------
DharmaSci
A book suggestion:

Zen and the Brain – Toward an Understanding of Meditation and Consciousness By
James H. Austin [https://mitpress.mit.edu/books/zen-and-
brain](https://mitpress.mit.edu/books/zen-and-brain) (Austin is a professor
emeritus of neurology, neurologist, researcher, and Zen practitioner)

Austin covers the effect of psychedelics and their effects relative to
meditation but nothing about meditation on drugs if I remember correctly. The
personal parts are easy to read. Neuroscience and chemistry are much harder.
The reference and source notes section is valuable if you are doing research.

~~~
qubex
Ordered!

------
swayvil
I tried a combination of Vipassana and Psilocybin a couple of times.

The awareness that comes with Vipassana gives you greater awareness of (and
control over) the Psylocybin effect.

Like Psilocybin is a motorcycle and Vipassana makes you into a pro rider. It a
whole other level.

Like, before you were doing donuts in your backyard, but now you can drive on
the highway and visit France.

~~~
mettamage
Lol, when I took psilocybin (Amsterdam, truffles, one dose, legal), I couldn't
even follow any instruction let alone meditate. Up to a point, I even lost my
language abilities.

~~~
swayvil
I didn't meditate while on psilocybin, I meditated before. The "meditation
effect" lingers, tapering off over hours, days etc.

------
kleer001
"However, neither their possible synergistic effects, nor related state and
trait predictors have been experimentally studied."

Well, you know, there was the Mash Chapel Experiment.

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marsh_Chapel_Experiment](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marsh_Chapel_Experiment)

Technically it was about religious experience, not mediation. But my BS
detectors go off pretty strong when I hear "No one's ever done this before."
instead of "Here's some things done in the past that are like what we're
doing, but here's how we're different."

------
carapace
In re: drugs in general and psychedelics in particular:

> "Of course, the drug dose does not produce the transcendent experience. It
> merely acts as a chemical key — it opens the mind, frees the nervous system
> of its ordinary patterns and structures. The nature of the experience
> depends almost entirely on set and setting. Set denotes the preparation of
> the individual, including his personality structure and his mood at the
> time. Setting is physical — the weather, the room's atmosphere; social —
> feelings of persons present towards one another; and cultural — prevailing
> views as to what is real. It is for this reason that manuals or guide-books
> are necessary. Their purpose is to enable a person to understand the new
> realities of the expanded consciousness, to serve as road maps for new
> interior territories which modern science has made accessible."

> — Timothy Leary, The Psychedelic Experience: A Manual Based on the Tibetan
> Book of the Dead

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Set_and_setting](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Set_and_setting)

\- - - -

In re: drugs and meditation. It's great that these folks didn't get thrown in
jail but their approach is almost criminally ignorant. The epistemology or
metaphysics informing the experiment is so... i don't know, 18th century? Did
we learn nothing from the 60's?

Speaking with experience, don't mix meditation and drugs. _I_ did it, and it
didn't completely not-work for me, but from my POV, it's irresponsible. (With
the caveat that, for a very _very_ small number of people (like, literally one
in a million or fewer), a little experience with drug trips can be
educational. But the odds are _you 're_ not one of them.)

\- - - -

In re: meditation, it really depends on what you're going for. If you just
want to feel better, then yeah, a beer and/or a joint or a lil shroom tea is
fine with one's navel-gazing. Simple muscular _relaxation_ is about 90% of the
profundity most folk experience with meditation. (Fun fact, what you think of
as your personality is encoded (among other places) in the chronic tension
patterns in your facial muscles.)

If your goal is _Enlightenment_ then drugs are a total blind alley.

\- - - -

I forgot to mention, if you want to experience "alterations of self-
consciousness in association with feelings of bliss, unity, and
insightfulness" _without_ any drugs, training, or meditation use the Core
Transformation Process (
[https://www.coretransformation.org/](https://www.coretransformation.org/) ),
a simple, reliable algorithm.

~~~
mistermann
> It's great that these folks didn't get thrown in jail but their approach is
> almost criminally ignorant. The epistemology or metaphysics informing the
> experiment is so... i don't know, 18th century? Did we learn nothing from
> the 60's?

This seems like a reasonable criticism.

> I did it, and it didn't completely not-work for me, but from my POV, it's
> irresponsible.

Also fair.

> With the caveat that, for a _very very_ small number of people (like,
> literally one in a million or fewer), a little experience with drug trips
> can be educational. But the odds are you're not one of them.

Unless I'm misunderstanding, are you saying _only one in a million or fewer_
can experience an educational effect (or, any benefits/insights whatsoever)
from drugs?

If so, is this based on studies of some kind?

> Simple muscular relaxation is about 90% of the profundity most folk
> experience with meditation.

Same question.

~~~
carapace
> > With the caveat that, for a very very small number of people (like,
> literally one in a million or fewer), a little experience with drug trips
> can be educational. But the odds are you're not one of them.

> Unless I'm misunderstanding, are you saying only one in a million or fewer
> can experience an educational effect (or, any benefits/insights whatsoever)
> from drugs?

In the most general sense, no, of course not. You can learn a lot on drugs,
including "don't do drugs". You can also blast your mind and ruin your life,
as at least two of my friends have done.

In the context of a mindfulness meditation retreat, though, yes, it's
counterproductive to get high while meditating. The vast majority of people
who are trying to "find themselves" or heal or figure out "the meaning of it
all" or whatever, should stick to prayer and/or meditation with an experienced
teacher and leave drugs alone.

> If so, is this based on studies of some kind?

You mean formal scientific studies? No, but then I've never looked. Science
hasn't had a good track record for studying the inner world.

It's hardly a secret that responsible teachers of meditation are united in
decrying the use of drugs, eh?

> > Simple muscular relaxation is about 90% of the profundity most folk
> experience with meditation.

> Same question.

Same answer.

The vast majority of people spend the vast majority of their time in chronic
tension, the patterns of which encode their problems and neuroses. Typically
this is accompanied by numbness or localized physical amnesia. People
literally are unaware of their tension patterns. In this context, _anything_
that gets a body to relax and pay attention to themself will have a dramatic
psychological effect.

In a very real sense, meditation can only begin after the "kinks" have been
worked out (like how R. A. Wilson recommended a full course of psychotherapy
was before attempting the "work" of the O.T.O.) which is why it traditionally
takes so long.

~~~
mistermann
> In the context of a mindfulness meditation retreat, though, yes, it's
> counterproductive to get high while meditating.

Counterproductive to what, and in what way?

> The vast majority of people who are trying to "find themselves" or heal or
> figure out "the meaning of it all" or whatever, should stick to prayer
> and/or meditation with an experienced teacher and leave drugs alone.

Why is that?

> You mean formal scientific studies? No, but then I've never looked. Science
> hasn't had a good track record for studying the inner world.

So all of the advice you're handing out is simply your opinion?

> It's hardly a secret that responsible teachers of meditation are united in
> decrying the use of drugs, eh?

I haven't heard many opinions, but even if they are, so what? Upon what is
their opinion on the matter based, their own opinions?

>> Simple muscular relaxation is about 90% of the profundity most folk
experience with meditation.

> Is this based on studies of some kind?

And you proceed to tell me more "facts".

Where do you pick up all of these ideas?

~~~
carapace
It doesn't feel to me like you are discussing this in good faith.

If you want to assert that formal peer-reviewed scientific experiments are the
only valid source of truth, just say it.

~~~
mistermann
You are making several claims, I'm curious to know whether they are true, but
you will not provide the source of your information.

Truth is not only derived from peer reviewed sources. What source are you
using?

~~~
carapace
While a comprehensive rundown of the sources of my information would include a
massive bibliography, I'll admit my main source of information is just my
personal experience and observation of the world around me.

~~~
mistermann
That's what I was looking for, thank you.

~~~
carapace
Frankly, I feel like this was a waste of time.

~~~
mistermann
Not for me, and perhaps other readers. Now we know that what you wrote are
opinions, not facts. Before, this was not clear.

To minimize the usage of your time, answering the question honestly the first
time would be more efficient.

------
qwerty456127
Although I'm pro-psychedelic I can warn against going this way as
hallucinogens can screw the whole point by distracting you from what you are
to find.

What I can recommend (to whoever can do this legally) is to try doing a
Buddhist meditation while on weed + amphetamine. Amphetamine can augment
concentration and weed can intensify the experience. Chances are you will get
it (satori or whatever you call it) and won't loose it ever. It can't be
unseen and you only loose it temporarily every time you loose mindful
concentration.

~~~
proverbialbunny
I don't know what kind of cannabis you're smoking but generally cannabis
provides a distraction away from the present moment, which is the opposite of
what you want.

Amphetamines may help, but they also increase tension. One of the key and most
important factors in meditation practice is tranquility which is the opposite
of even subtle muscle tension.

Magic mushrooms while not always ideal, induce a near identical brain state to
deep meditation, so you get an idea of what is possible. I wouldn't say it
hinders meditation, but it's not something that benefits meditation in the
long run.

Keep in mind many of the popular kinds of meditation (eg Mindfulness
Meditation) you begin to naturally identify when you're distracted. If you
can't do that sober (yet) that should be the goal, to the point you don't have
to rely on chemicals to achieve it.

~~~
azhu
I'm not so sure it's quite that simple. I've got a prescription to amphetamine
salts as well as a marijuana habit. And an injury rehab situation that
requires I strengthen muscles I couldn't even consciously access and breathing
engaging my diaphragm in a way I haven't since literal babyhood.

Marijuana drastically amplifies the nervous system signal through to my
muscles, but I find I _have_ to focus, otherwise I sort of just melt.
Amphetamine drastically amplifies the signal as well, but I find I can't let
it go unless I focus on relaxing. It very much feels like the interaction
that's happening is how my conscious cognition can access the nervous system
wires running throughout the body. It feels very possible that some forms of
meditation may not necessarily be about utter quiet, but rather such focus
that noise cannot exist.

Anecdotal stuff aside, many meditative practices require active engagement of
muscles. Yoga is a big one.

~~~
proverbialbunny
I also went through physical therapy too. I hope you're past any pain and are
doing well. I know how painful things can get.

>It feels very possible that some forms of meditation may not necessarily be
about utter quiet, but rather such focus that noise cannot exist.

You might already know this, but meditation is about identifying when you are
and are not in the present moment, be it quiet or not.

So utter quiet isn't necessary. There are thoughts in the present moment. The
present moment is when you're aware of your chosen anchor, eg the breath.
There are noises sometimes. One of the first kinds of meditation I did I was
told to listen to the birds outside. If my mind started taking me away from
the birds, I went back to listening to the birds. The goal of meditation is to
identify this transition from the present moment to away from the present
moment, and back.

There are many kinds of meditation, but usually when someone says meditation
they mean concentration building types like Mindfulness Meditation, which
deals with learning how to identify the present moment. Absolute quiet is a
misunderstanding, though it is nice when camping.

In ancient eastern practices (where meditation comes from) there is the
concept of a middle ground, which isn't moderation. It's basically: do what
works best in that set and setting. If amphetamines work for you right now,
then that is your middle ground, but know they will not always work on
everyone the same way.

Eventually if you exercise your mind, like exercising a muscle, you will need
less and less of the drugs you're taking to be able do what you want to do. I
have ADHD and was amphetamines too, but after I started meditating for a
while, my concentration jumped up and I ended up having to take less and less
meds until I stopped taking them all together. Of course, I can still take
them, but it's nice that meditation lets you hack your brain and change your
mental state to what you want.

------
Applethief
Meditation/Yoga requires a clear mind. No drugs, no alcohol. It's very simple.

~~~
LocalH
Psychedelics have helped clear my mind, and many other people's minds.

