
Ask HN: I'm 18, broke, and inexperienced. What do I do? - jessehorne
I&#x27;m an 18 year old programmer, broke, inexperienced, and sleep deprived. I&#x27;ve came to the conclusion that I need to be useful to a company to expect any sort of investment of time&#x2F;energy from them, but the time I have to invest in myself is quickly fading away. Options are of low quantity as in any sob story on the internet, and I&#x27;m looking for a way out of this purgatory.<p>I have a few questions for you guys, and if you will answer them I will be thankful and possibly even inspired to do something great.<p>Are there companies out there that are okay investing time&#x2F;engergy&#x2F;money into young and inexperienced software developers? Sure, I&#x27;ve read a few articles on the internet about this, but I would love to have a better outlook in the eyes of HN.<p>Would I have a chance? I haven&#x27;t listed all that I&#x27;ve done on my GitHub, Linkedin, and such, keep in mind.<p>If you were in my shoes and had a month to come up with some income, how would you go about doing it? Believe me, I&#x27;ve spent hours on Fiverr, Freelancer, Gun.io, BountySource, and more, but nothing has came from that except a few dollars here and there. Certainly not enough for a kid who is living on his own. I have, of course, applied to several restaurants within manageable bus distance. No luck. I even attempted to join all of the branches of the military; There were no GED spots open at the time (and don&#x27;t assume I can&#x27;t take commitment (because of dropping out of highschool), I have several people who would say otherwise (all programmers)). I realized that if my employment depended on giving in to a flawed education system, I&#x27;d rather switch professions. Nothing is worth feeding that monster.<p>If you guys have any advice that could help me on my search for software development income, feel free to reply. I also wouldn&#x27;t mind discussing any controversy I&#x27;ve caused here. Tell me what you are thinking!<p>Check out these links, and happy late xmas!
www.thehorne.com
www.github.com&#x2F;jessehorne
======
ChuckMcM
_"... and don't assume I can't take commitment because of dropping out of
highschool ... nothing is worth feeding that monster."_

There is a tremendous depth in that particular rabbit hole. Your success (or
lack thereof) in life will depend on you understanding how you got to this
point (18, broke, and not even the Army will take you) and at the same time
did not do the minimum needed (figure out how to finish high school). The
advice here is that navigating life is like swimming, there really isn't any
"right" way to do it, however there are ways to do it such that you end up
drowning. Understanding that has to come from inside of you.

If you need cash now, I suggest you help older people with their Internet.
There are a bazillion of them, they don't know an SSID from a SSN, and they
want to be able to participate in the tech heavy world around them. Join a
church, visit the Rotary club, walk door to door, or just set up a table at a
nursing home (with permission of the home of course) offering "free help with
your smart phone, tips appreciated". It won't be rolling in dough but it can
keep you off the street and fed.

If you can, visualize what you want to be, and then work backward from there
to see what you need to do today to get there. Good luck.

~~~
jessehorne
I realize that I should have worded that differently but changing it almost
felt like lying. I realize that Ill learn more and probably end up changing my
views on education, and I can't wait for that to happen, because it's always a
nice experience learning.

Thank you for this honest advice. Don't worry, I'm going to be okay, because I
have plenty of options outside of software, so I understand where you're
coming from.

------
lrvick
When I was 18 I had already dropped out of college, was homeless and in pretty
poor shape. I had to live "fake it till you make it". None of my clients
needed to know I was programming their web applications from a library
computer at a college campus that I only was able to use by logging in with
random strangers student ID numbers.

I worked my ass off to build software enginnering experience taking on
challenges for little to no pay. That alone didnt keep me fed all the time
while I was learning to market myself (and gaining more skills to market).

I did everything from working many day-labor jobs (manpower, laborready, etc),
factory work, tractor sales, retail, telemarketing, street preforming,
teaching old people to use the internet, etc.

It was a long road but over time I began to get the occasional programming gig
for clients in way over their heads with money to burn. Allowed me to build
confidence, income, and vital experience. I made sure I earned my keep and got
referrals.

So far I have started 5 companies, worked for/with countless others, tackled
hundreds of fun projects, learned a lot of tough/valuable lessons, and built a
network of incredible people. I am now working as a software engineer at an
amazing startup and I love my job.

TLDR If someone like me can make it, anyone can. Just gotta work for it and
learn how to leverage the resources around you.

Also... ignore the people saying you can't make it without a degree. Many of
my friends employed at major tech firms don't have anything but hard earned
experience. No one worth working for has degrees as a manditory prereq.
Obtaining a degree or two may well be the easier/sane path for most, but
certainly not the only one. My path was at least debt free and came with
experience I would not trade for anything.

Feel free email me (google for it) or hit me up via
[http://hashbang.sh](http://hashbang.sh) . Lot of very successful mentors
there that love helping people like you.

~~~
jessehorne
Inspirational story. I'm glad to hear success stories from people who took
this path. I'll be contacting you shortly!

------
morgante
Why have your freelancing gigs not paid off?

I regularly hire development contractors and the two failure modalities I see
most often are:

1\. Failure to communicate/organize/deliver on time. This is particularly
pronounced amongst younger developers who frequently end up losing focus
midway through a project and "go dark." The #1 way to avoid this is to set
expectations, meet those expectations, and communicate along the way. Given
your educational background, this is probably the biggest hurdle you have to
overcome.

2\. Inadequate assessment of abilities. Unfortunately many younger developers
think they're a lot better than they are so they try to tackle super-
challenging projects. If you're young and inexperienced, start with the easy
stuff (ie. basic CRUD apps for boring businesses). Probably the best way to
improve is to latch on to a popular open source project and find a mentor in
that community who can teach you best practices around design patterns,
testing, etc.

Finally, I'd suggest that you work a bit on your personal marketing. Don't
focus on your age or that you're "hungry." Fake it till you make it. Also, put
a clear list of skills (with demonstrative projects linked) right up front.
(I'm only 21, but you wouldn't know that from the front page of my website.)

~~~
jessehorne
Thank you for the tips. You have answered a couple questions here that I've
had for a while.

I don't want to market myself as something I'm not, so I've probably been too
cautious not to. I don't want to have someones expectations of me drop, but I
think you're right.

 _EDIT_ All of the jobs I've gotten have worked out, btw. I apologize for not
answering that in the initial reply.

~~~
morgante
> All of the jobs I've gotten have worked out, btw. I apologize for not
> answering that in the initial reply.

In that case, you should immediately ask all your previous clients:

1) If they have any additional work they'd be interested in hiring you for
(but phrase it something like this: "My schedule is opening up a bit in the
next few weeks and I wanted to make sure you got first crack before my
availability tightens up again.")

2) If they don't have any additional projects, ask them for a testimonial (on
LinkedIn and your site) and to refer you to any of their friends who might
need a similarly skilled developer.

------
SixSigma
In Australia when hitch hiking, if you aren't walking you won't get picked up
because obviously you don't really want to get there.

Pick fruit, cut grass, clean pools.

~~~
jessehorne
For sure. I'm surviving.

------
ripitrust
Almost everyone is broke and inexperienced at age 18 man, the point is whether
you are still broke and inexperienced when you are 28 or 38.

Living in abundance at young age sometimes stops people from carefully
thinking what in their life is important

It is really great that you have figure out your future path I think you
really should continue learn and practise, you may not necessarily need to
work for some established companies, there are tons of open source project
that you could take a look.

I wish I can figure out my path when I was 18 man, good luck.

~~~
jessehorne
I know that's the truth! I didn't understood how little I knew until I started
communicating with experienced adults (thanks to IRC). Some discussions with
my friend from WorldForge helped me realize I had so many years to go. I
realized I'd be learning for the rest of my life, constantly trying to be
better. It's pretty exciting.

Also, don't tell my future employers but being broke doesn't scare me (just
causes horrid stress), I just want to have something awesome under my belt in
10-20 years. :-)

Thanks for the positive comment!

------
EdSharkey
Can you mooch off the parentals and live at home? You can be on their health
care plan until you turn 26.

I don't like to make rushed decisions when it comes to money or health. If
you're having trouble getting a job as a developer, consider that you have
made a huge mistake in dropping out of high school and employers are not going
to take a risk on you even if you are a true talent.

Anyhow, if you can go home, I think you should. If you opt to get your GED,
that's good for your personal development but not much else. Most employers
are going to be leery of you in any case since you couldn't keep it together
enough to finish HS.

Aging into your 20's will help, and if you're any good, you'll get enough
freelance jobs or contractor jobs that you'll make up for your past mistakes
on your resume and can try out for full time positions at companies you like.

I am also not keen on the idea of working for free anywhere as an intern for
future promises of employment or purely for experience, especially with your
history. Don't let yourself get exploited.

Get some sleep.

~~~
jessehorne
I don't feel comfortable mooching, but it's an option if I get truly
desperate. I do have my GED, so I can't go back and get my diploma. I can see
how not having an understanding of introductory level calculus and
intermediate level algebra and what not would be an issue, but I can prove
that I have this knowledge, so I don't feel it's an issue that I don't have my
diploma. I've used tools such as Khan Academy to make up for any classes I was
not able to take. Thank you, and I will!

~~~
rab_oof
Generic observations that may not apply:

Survival depends on doing things with which we are uncomfortable or expending
greater efforts elsewhere.

Education is great if you teach yourself basic math, writing and so on, but
education is most often a distraction to getting down to actual work that
makes money. The failure of ourselves is when we let pride or ego get ahead of
rational self-interest.

There are plenty of blue-collar skilled trades that pay 100k+/year that
academia-brainwashed people look down upon. Welder, electrian, plumber,
carpenter, mechanic, on and on. Check out Mike Rowe's nonprofit for more...
Nuclear industry rated and underwater welders make crazy money. Btw nurses and
medical will always be needed and the pay is great. Want a niche technical OR
specialty that doesnt always require an MD? perfusionist (heart lung
machines). You would honestly be able to say you were legally sanctioned to
kill people for a living without the morass of being a PMC, because you would
be that person that flips the switch at EOL.

If you have the sand, fishing and crabbing makes coin by being hard and risky.
Taxi drivers also on dry land.

Just pick something, try it out, move on if too terrible, don't waste time on
analysis paralysis because it's just procrastination.

~~~
jessehorne
I'm looking to expand my knowledge into more areas as well! Some things
interest me like mechanics, electronics, plumbing, firearms. Ill definitely
check out Mike Rowes thing, I didn't know he had something like that going. I
used to love Dirty Jobs.

~~~
rab_oof
Cool! And the things you don't get to do professionally can become hobbies :)

Military (army, navy, Air Force, marines, coast guard) has tons of logistics
service jobs, and will pay for university. My stepbrother started off as a
navy radar tech, lived all over, did college, air school and now flies
f/a-18's.

------
jacquesm
Try to get an internship with a company that builds stuff with/in the
languages where you already have a bit of knowledge. That should get you
paired up with someone with some gray hair and a few battle scars which will
allow you to learn faster than what you can do on your own.

~~~
jessehorne
That would be absolutely outstanding, and I'm going to spend some time on some
emails and what not to see if I can make it a reality. Thank you for this.

------
fencepost
Don't focus entirely on programming.

Find small IT services firms in your area, call them, and ask if they're
looking for people. I guarantee you're at least 2 steps above who they
normally get, and depending on their size and customer base you may be able to
get good local freelance development projects and references while helping
them keep their customers happy. You may also get a variety of experience with
both business needs and end users that may be very valuable to you later.
You'll also help with things that seem incredibly simple to you like basic
spreadsheet or macro stuff - something you'll spend 15 minutes on that will
literally save a business staffer or manager days of error-prone tweaking by
hand.

~~~
jessehorne
I'm going to look into this option a bit more, thanks! I don't expect I'll
find much in this area but I'll look more in the Atlanta area as well.

~~~
fencepost
You might be surprised. Consider that every doctor's office (at least those
with 2 or more doctors) is almost guaranteed to have someone they call for
computer help, and odds are high that you've never heard of any of the
companies. Those companies may consist of only 2-5 people, but just with
changes over the past couple of years along with changes coming in 2015
(ICD-10, end of support for Windows Server 2003, lingering XP users) there's a
ton going on just in that one vertical market.

~~~
rab_oof
I've worked in university/clinical medical IT too. Large universities are
great for consulting IT practices because each dept is like a separate client.
Work there for a year or three and then setup your own shop to bill back to
it. Even a temporary contract can be useful to make relationships and identify
pain-points.

------
thro1237
Get a four year college degree in Computer Science or related field. If it is
too expensive to do it in the US, try to move to another country where it is
cheaper with reasonable quality. I believe you are a decent programmer -- but
it is very difficult to go past the HR screens of many companies without that
degree. You might have ideological disagreements with the way the world works,
but as you grow older, unless you are extremely luck or brilliant or both,
this hurdle will stare at your face too many times. And being in college will
also give you time to hone up your real skills.

~~~
pedalpete
I'm going to completely disagree with this, particularly as the OP has stated
he doesn't have a high-school degree, so a college degree is likely out of
reach.

I don't have a university degree, and the only times that has stopped me in an
interview process is places that I likely wouldn't have wanted to work anyway.
Even Google, which prefers people to have a university degree, will make an
exception if they see you've got the experience and capability. This is
speaking from experience, though I dropped out of the Google interview process
as I needed a visa in shorter amount of time than they were going to take in
making a hiring decision.

~~~
thro1237
We are not disagreeing at all. I agree that if you are extremely lucky or you
can prove your brilliance in other ways, then you don't need a degree. But if
you are not in a position to do either of this (which I assume OP is), the
easiest way to bump up your chances of getting hired is to get a 4 year
degree. As you say, getting hired into google without a degree is an exception
-- not the rule. If the OP can somehow sustain himself while getting a 4 year
degree, I would advice doing that.

------
maerF0x0
I worked a limited time job on odesk for about minimum wage for about 20 hours
to get a 5* rating from an employer. Then I did the same at minimum wage x1.25
, rinse and repeat until you are making about $40 an hour. I always told my
contracts, "I bill for every minute, but you can fire me at anytime if you're
unhappy". Unfortunately there isnt really a market for much higher on odesk
and then you'll start to have to look for contracts elsewhere. But in lots of
the country $40 is tons.

~~~
acroe
Interesting. What's the nature of work do you accept at oDesk? Do you mind
mentoring people?

~~~
maerF0x0
Its past tense now-- used to work on odesk. The work was mostly updating
terrible PHP from abroad and minor website updates. The occasional shopify
task etc.

Slowly but surely I would bid for and receive more lead development work. At
minimum wage people would clamor for my attention and time, interest really
dropped off around $30-40 an hour and people started to get pushy about
productivity and "how long is this going to take?" .

------
ecma
I hope I'm not going to be the only wet blanket here but I think you need to
seriously consider your options outside of software, at least in the short
term. Your story makes it sound like you're in serious need of some income
and/or support and you need to take care of your basic needs before you have
the flexibility to do what you're passionate about full time. I hope I
interpreted your situation right because this is a worrying position to hear
about.

Your dismissal of the education system is a little sad too but as a non-
American, I'm not in a position to judge the situation. Despite the bad rep
education systems get, I think the benefits of formal education can't be
understated. It's not just the skills you learn directly from courses but the
critical analysis and other soft skills that you pick up which are often most
valuable. I'm glad that you seem to have the interest to direct yourself
toward new knowledge - that's just as valuable and not orthogonal to formal
education.

I had a look at your Github and, IMHO, it's not something that would cause me
to hire or partner with you. That is one person's random opinion on the
Internet though so please don't take it as rude or disheartening. You are
writing code and it is interesting, that's a great start especially for
someone as young as yourself. Keep writing code when you can and I'm sure
you'll end up doing something you love.

Good luck and I hope you get some good advice from this thread but remember
that you should put your health and basic needs first. Passion and
repositories usually aren't enough to pay the rent.

~~~
jessehorne
Oh no, your advice is appreciated and correct. I don't have an impressive
portfolio. I'm sorry if I sounded so dependent on cash, I'm not in a life
threatening situation. I can survive well, thanks to family and friends. Thank
you for the advice!

~~~
unepipe
I concur - I would highly recommend taking a paying day job and working
furiously on side projects, and parlaying that into an employment opportunity
- I would also recommend looking at other skilled positions at an internet
startup like data analysis, marketing, SEM, etc. You can learn those skills
relatively quickly tbh especially if you are someone who programs. It will
probably seems relatively straightforward to learn. Many companies are looking
for passionate individuals who are technically savvy.

And do your research before job interviews. Understand the ins and outs of the
company, their competition. I turn down people who I can tell haven't checked
out our website let alone the industry prior to applying.

------
zaphar
First some encouragement. You can totally make it in this industry. I know
because I've been in worse situations:
[http://jeremy.marzhillstudios.com/entries/From-Homeless-
to-a...](http://jeremy.marzhillstudios.com/entries/From-Homeless-to-a-Career/)
So here are two things to keep in mind.

1\. You need to make money somehow. Worst case scenario you go to work at
something like LaborReady or Manpower. It's exhausting work but if you show up
and put in a little effort you'll always have work. For a little while I was
on a request list for companies that used Labor Ready. It doesn't take much to
stand out from the crowd there.

2\. You need to get exposure. This can happen through Github, OSS projects,
and your blog. But most important find your niche. Become an expert in
something that there aren't many experts in. I got my first real job because I
became expert at Perl at a time when there weren't many people claiming to be
experts in Perl. It can be a language, Framework, technology stack, whatever.
After you're first full time job though you will gain contacts and a network.
You can then play that out into career growth.

Nothing is guaranteed but you have options.

~~~
lrvick
We should talk. I think you might of encouraged me to finally document my own
similar story of homeless to married / awesome software career.

If it can be used to encourage others it is a net win, yeah?

~~~
zaphar
Sure. Anytime. My email is in my profile.

------
nicolethenerd
Access Code seems like a perfect program for someone in your situation
(basically a 9-month coding bootcamp for folks from underserved groups - it's
in Queens, NY - I'm not sure whether you have to be from NYC to apply)
[http://www.c4q.nyc/accesscode](http://www.c4q.nyc/accesscode)

Does anyone know of any similar programs elsewhere in the country? (Looks like
the OP is in Georgia)

~~~
jessehorne
Access Code looks pretty interesting. I'm going to see if I can find some
similar programs offered that I'm qualified for. Some require funding that I
do not have, however, so I don't know I would do that. I would need to do some
sort of Kickstarter or take out a loan.

------
gojomo
You don't mention where you are. Moving to where better opportunities exist is
often beneficial – not necessarily to a tech mecca, but perhaps still a city
with a larger mix of tech, non-tech, and service firms.

If your career goal is software development, you can and should get relevant
experience and a paycheck together. Only take an unrelated job (like the
restaurants you mentioned) if that's the only way to stay fiscally/mentally
healthy.

While you may be enough of a self-teacher and hustler to do a lot of
remote/solo work to get by, at your career stage you really need to be working
with a larger group of more-experienced people. (College-like programs are one
way to achieve that, but interesting/competent/functional workplaces are,
too.)

Your first, second, and third priority should be to be near and working-with
people you can learn from. Research all such workplaces near you, and be
willing to take any starting position someplace they're doing the kind of work
you want to do. Any role can grow quickly once you're in the door.

Your age is less important than the fact you're "entry level" to the full-time
workforce. Your lack of credentials can be largely offset by any prior work
that shows promise, a good attitude, and acredible interest in filling any
skills-gaps over time (with both on-job and off-job projects and education).

It's expected you'll learn on the job, you just want to send the signals that:
(1) it won't be too long of a ramp-up before you're a net benefit to the
employer; and (2) if a firm is patient with you, you're interested enough in
their projects/business they'll have a chance of retaining you, when you're
more-experienced.

------
gregthompsonjr
I think you should stop asking yourself whether you could fair as a developer.
If you're broke, you need to make serious decisions very tactfully, very
quickly.

Just apply. Stop hesitating. I sense way too much questioning from you
regarding your own skill level and how you fair out there.

If you only have a month to come up with some income, you need to get a job
doing construction, mowing lawns, etc. Just do something to eat while you
apply for dev positions.

And keep populating your GitHub account. That never hurts.

And as immoral as it seems, DO NOT be afraid to lie a little. A lot of people
here will dismiss the need for white lies in reaching most levels of success,
even if that success is landing a dev position that pays 50k. Don't listen to
those people. You need money and a place to grow -- you need to be just as
relentless and dogged as your competition is. In America, that competition is
a lot of kids who want green cards, a lot of kids who have degrees, and a lot
of kids who have no heart when it comes down to grabbing opportunities. Don't
overdo it. But it really won't hurt to say that you're a little better at what
you do than you actually are. It wouldn't hurt to say you've built a few IRC
bot clients a few years ago when you didn't (be prepared to explain how you
did that on the spot, though).

Nothing about the wild teaches us that hunting is easy. Just because we're
civilized animals, don't believe for one moment that it's not just as harsh in
society when you're trying to eat as it is out in the wilderness.

Finally: It seems like you already know this, but just to reinforce this
value: don't be ashamed to take a job that you'd normally considered beneath
your skill set or potential. Ever.

Good luck, my man.

~~~
gregthompsonjr
Oh, and I forgot: I checked out your Twitter account. You should really
consider putting that on private. The stuff about slavery and whatnot,
although agreeable in some circles, may not sit right in the circles you want
to impress. And yes, people do check.

Hide all social media you own unless it has to do with code and it's clean. No
one really needs to know about your atheism and your thoughts on the caveats
of modern society. Despite being unable to deny someone of employment based on
such opinions, people do. All someone would have to do with you is say "he
doesn't qualify because of his level of education," when all they really mean
is, "I hate people with his political/religious views."

Take your job search as seriously as possible.

~~~
jessehorne
Oh yes, this is something I've slipped up on. I get so pumped up sometimes I
feel a need to share it with the world. Unfortunately I'm not trying to be a
social media star, so I do need to keep it private. Thank you for reminding
me.

~~~
rab_oof
Use the search engine remove url tools to get rid of stuff after you've
cleaned up. Each major search engine usually has a way to do that. It won't
erase Twitter and internet archives, but it's a start.

------
mc_hammer
Try to contribute to 1 open source project, especially one someone can
remember. At the same time focus your expertise into one area - something
popular, like jquery or laravel or rails. Once you can say you are an expert
at one thing and have some experience behind you (open source or other
released project), you can get a job easily, for $20-40/hr.

~~~
jessehorne
I've found that keeping one of your own projects going is hard work. All of my
own open source projects have died off, but yes, I understand where you are
coming from.

I've looked into a few open source projects before, but most of my time has
been spent on various game ideas and such that weren't really open source.

I claim to be a Lua expert but there doesn't seem to be any jobs out there for
that (and it's simple, but according to some articles I haven't used it long
enough). I should have listened to a couple mentors when they told me to
master something else. I can't really dislike the experience though because
I've learned a ton, and got to meet some interesting people in several
communities.

~~~
anonfunction
Lua is really popular in the gaming industry and has been catching on as of
late within SF as a great language to add functionality to nginx through
projects like OpenResty.

------
noahlt
When I was 18 I knew Python, HTML/CSS, and a little bit of Django. I cold-
emailed every Python shop in my city (San Diego) asking for an internship, met
with a few of them, and ended up with a summer internship. It paid just above
minimum wage and was only for the summer, but it was fantastic and I loved it.
Some tips:

#1: An internship is probably easier to come by than a full-time position,
since it's less of a risk for employers. You're still young enough that
internships are appropriate; take advantage of that.

#2: You don't have to advertise the fact that you got a GED. Just list the
years you were in high school, or don't list education at all. Even when I was
still in school, I never put my GPA on a resume. As an interviewer now, I
never even look at the education section.

#3: Write a good cover letter that summarizes some of the cool projects you've
built, like LoveOS and Derplang. Be sure to explain _why_ they're cool.

~~~
jessehorne
Yes, one of those positions would be fantastic. I'm looking into one as we
speak that sounds like just the thing I was looking for.

I will do as you said and stay away from advertising the education part of my
history. Of course I will answer all questions about it honestly, though.

I appreciate the comment on those projects, Ill be sure to include them in my
cover letters if you think it will help.

------
wallflower
The number one rule of freelancing that you must never break:

The more you slip in showing the client something/anything, the higher the
expectations of the client will grow.

For example, 'oh it will take about 2 weeks to get X done'. If you get to two
weeks later and you're like 'sorry, taking longer than usual', the client's
expectations will be start to boil up as a function of their trust being
tested (corollary - when someone vouches for you as a freelancer, you will
destroy their trust if you don't deliver and the client comes back to them).

Show progress/wireframes/communicate progress in a non-condescending manner.
One extreme is no communication at all, the other extreme is participation in
daily progress meetings with the client. Slant towards more communication, as
miscommunication is at the root of most freelancing evil.

------
ajdusiejdbd
Your too young to give up just yet. You need to get your GED or most companies
won't hire you. Not because they have something against you, but as a manager
you stick yor neck out a bit when you hire someone and if for some reason it
didn't work out their boss might look at them like "wtf were you thinking,
this dude didn't even have GED" and then question their own good judgement in
the future. It's more about their own risk management then your abilities.

Go find any job you can get, most of my friends did best buy retail. Get your
GED then do 1 year of community college taking intro CS classes. Do that and
list out all your github stuff in a portfolio, then you will seem much more
desirable and at least a defendable risk to take on.

~~~
jessehorne
I'm sorry, I should have clarified. I do have a GED. It took me no time at all
to get it, and it is a lot better than nothing. It seems I'm getting plenty of
advice to do atleast some community college; So I will seriously consider that
option in the future. Thank you.

~~~
ajdusiejdbd
Going community college isn't so much for your own skills, it's to move you
into the "Some College" box for HR. It's make you look less like a risk and to
give you a chance to at least get a chance to get in front of someone to show
them what your made of and your github portfolio. Having the correct skills
for the job is entirely separate issue from being an acceptable candidate.

I think school is for the most part total bullshit and you don't learn much
for the amount of time and money you invest in it. All the best stuff I know I
taught myself because I was interested or on the job. I have a masters degree
is CS and teach community college CS classes, I did it not for the knowledge
but to open opportunities for myself which others might not consider me for
because I'd look like the risky option compared to others applying for the
same job. In many places management and hiring processes are just as broken as
the educational system.

~~~
marincounty
A little off topic, but there's nothing wrong with going to a community
college. Just make sure you finish all your Transfer requirements--and get
that rediculous four year degree. If a CS degree, or STEM degree seems
unattainable get a BS, or BA in Anything. You will look back on the experience
with a smile on your face. At most state colleges upper division courses are
easier than lower division--I don't know why, but that was my experience. I
have to say though--I'm a little surprised how many people on this board still
value the four year degree? It seems like every Programming employment offer
goes out of their way to make sure the applicant is fully aware that
experience, and a portfolio of work is more important than a degree. The only
reason I got a four year degree is because in the US certain people still
think it's a big deal? I learned more at my community college than I did at
state college. It was cheaper, I learned more, the Teachers care more, and the
classes were small. I actually had a great time at my community college. I was
completely dissillusioned with graduate school, and a short stint in
Chiropractic school though. Good luck--don't forget applying to to
construction unions--if you don't mind hard work. A union Electrician(local 6)
makes over $100/hr. including benefits. The union entrance tests are basically
8th grade equilvancy exams. The trick to getting in is a high score.(Try to
ace every question). I don't think I would work construction for a non-union
company though. It pays roughly the same as Retail. I went off as usual, but
try to take care of your mental health(I don't even have any advise on how
to), but I tried to do all the right things to succeed in life at an early
age, and still had an emotional breakdown in my twenties. It really affected
my life. I sometimes think no advise is the best advise; everyone is
different, along with their situation?

------
pthreads
Why not get a night shift job as a concierge in some hotel or apartment
building? All you have to do is sit at your desk for the most part. Utilize
that time to learn new skills, find a software job, take some online classes,
or contribute to open source software? Problem solved.

~~~
jessehorne
Certainly a good idea as well, and I've seen that it's common. My plan for
tomorrow will be to get atleast a few apps in in my local area. Vehicles are a
job of course, and business within walking distance is horrid. Where there is
a will, there is a way, however.

------
josh_fyi
> I've came to the conclusion that I need to be useful to a company to expect
> any sort of investment of time/energy from them

That is true. But a little bit of "I'm God's gift to humanity" will go a long
way. Try a little. (A _little_.)

I suggest going to meetups and namedropping your GitHub

> listed all that I've done on my GitHub, Linkedin

Do that! Unless there was some rubbishy work that doesn't enhance your market
value, use your existing work to prove yourself.

Try going to meetups and namedropping your GitHub. Say enthusiastically: "Wow,
I love the way WebWorkers fit into Angular JS. I put together a project on
GitHub ... exciting stuff, take a look!" Getting back to my first point, no
one minds a little arrogance so long as you have something to back it up!

------
readme
So, you're not in college?

I know this will be a controversial suggestion, but I am offering it as
someone who takes his own advice (I'm in the Army). This suggestion isn't for
the faint of heart.

I would say if you're not a conscientious objector, you should go down and see
an Air Force recruiter. They have a pretty good selection of technical jobs
you could do.

Then you'd get out with the GI bill in a few years and they'd pay your rent
the whole time you're in college. 36 months of tuition plus a salary stipend
of an E-5 (sergeant).

Just something to mull over. The military does actually have some pretty cool
mentally stimulating work, if you have the brain, which you obviously do.

------
krat0sprakhar
I'd suggest picking up something popular and spending good amount of time in
churning out projects. I see that you have Lua on your Github, but since
you're desperately looking for work I would advice you to pick up ROR or
Django (if you like web dev) or iOS / Android (which might be a good fit with
your interest in games).

Lastly, I've heard good success stories of people who've been to dev bootcamps
(such as Hacker School etc.) which excel in getting you competent enough for
an entry level job in a tech company. A simple Google search would help you
find a couple near your area. Save up for it and consider giving that a shot
as well.

All the best!

~~~
jessehorne
Oh yes! Those dev bootcamps looked fantastic. I'm going to look into a few
again soon, and begin saving, more than likely.

~~~
bhaumik
Feel free to shoot me an email if you want some advice on picking one based on
your needs/interests. Also, if you need a more immediate or affordable option
I can get you a discount on a Thinkful course.

------
blacksoil
On one of the comments you wrote, you said you're not in a financial situation
that is life-threatening. I'd like to ask start from here. Would going to a
community college be an option for you? I myself went to a 2-year community
college then transferred to a 4-year university, majoring in computer science.
It had helped me landing a job in one of the most well-known tech companies.

When I was in a community college, I was under the impression that it was not
too hard to get some financial aid. Would it be possible for you to work part-
time while studying?

~~~
blacksqr
Your mention of community college reminded me that I had a friend in similar
circumstances several years ago (young, bright, but inexperienced and no
contacts, plus in his case new country).

I advised him to take a programming course at the local community college, but
I told him the greatest value he'd get was almost certainly not what he would
learn in class, but the connections he would make with students and faculty.

Fortunately for him (and for my reputation as a sage) before the first
semester was over the boss of one of his fellow students literally knocked on
his door to recruit him.

At the time he was sleeping on his brother's couch. Don't be afraid to ask for
help from family if it's available, it can be crucial, and one day you'll
return the favor.

------
Animats
See if you can take one course, in anything, at some community college. That
advances you from "GED" to "some college", which is a huge advance in the
resume.

~~~
jessehorne
Would courses on Coursera count? I'm interested in school as far as learning
goes, but many things turn me off. Ill look into this option!

~~~
yzzxy
No. Coursera courses could be good for experience but it's a red flag to claim
that something that is A. online and B. not college is "some college."

------
zeeshanm
I looked over some of your stuff and I really think you are underestimating
your skill sets. Experience is helpful but you can do so much without it, too.
I think other people have great advice you should listen to.

Although you can do so much with your programming prowess, going to college
would only help. See if you can get into community college. Spend an year or
two there, work hard, make friends, and then transfer out to a better school.

------
jshen
What I see on your links is very promising, and there certainly are companies
willing to hire entry level people. You'd definitely get a phone screen if
your resume crossed my desk.

What you don't say is how you've looked for work and what happened. Do you
apply and never get called back? Do you get interviews,but no offer? Are you
willing to relocate or does it have to be remote work?

~~~
jessehorne
Thank you for the compliment! Usually I do not get called back but there are
some strange cases where companies I would have never had thought would
contact me back wanted to do a phone screening. I wish I would have been
useful to them at the time, they were doing amazing things. I, of course,
should have applied more, but nothing I can do about that now but learn from
the situation.

~~~
jshen
What about relocation?

------
shayanjm
Build cool things and don't focus on the income. If you need cash, get
contract gigs to pay the bills. Gun.io is a great resource for that (I've only
got a few years on you and I've made a pretty penny doing consulting work for
the last few years).

------
known
You're just 18. Don't despair. You've bright and prosperous future ahead.

------
alcipir
first of all, relax. I'd do anything to be a 18 years old programmer. Can't
you get some help from your family? If you're really broke, that would at
least cover your food expenses and such.

Otherwise, just keep looking and programming, you seem really passionate about
it and started at a very young age (I begun programming when I was 22). If you
really need some money, try anything that pays your rent/food/etc. and on the
side keep looking for programming gigs.

I don't think it is a matter of luck, so I will just wish you a good night of
sleep and a more relaxed mind.

Sorry about my english, lack of practice hurts that much.

~~~
jessehorne
I appreciate the warm advice and compliment. Relaxation sounds wonderful.
Going to finish this "Buddha walks into a bar" book with a cup of tea soon.

------
_RPM
Anytime I see that someone does work in C, I automatically assume that they
are above average. To even _want_ to program in C, means to me that you are
passionate about programming. I know I am biased.

~~~
jessehorne
I've taken a lot of biased advice on IRC that scared me away from the idea. My
C knowledge is very limited. I've seen young programmers that know C and they
are usually better than I at what they do.

~~~
_RPM
I looked at your GitHub and saw one project in C.

------
itl12
Off the top of my head,(and I'm sure you will get better responses) you could
trawl the PHP forums and pick up some simple work that you can bash out
quickly? May be a way to make a few bucks.

~~~
jessehorne
I've been scared to post any plea's because I don't want to be that guy, so I
haven't experimented with this plan except for here (Well see how it goes).

PHP was a fun language; I wrote this
([https://github.com/jessehorne/phpbf](https://github.com/jessehorne/phpbf))
with it. Some would say that's no where near enough to experience PHP, but I
got enough taste to realize it was similar to a lot of other languages I had
dabbled with in the past.

I'm going to look into a couple of PHP forums, probably related to some
popular framework to see if I can find some work. The time it would take to
learn one of them is time I could spend developing using a language that I
know already, but I guess priority should be determined after this thread has
died.

Thank you for the advice, friend.

------
rab_oof
Read "steal this book" and don't get caught. (Ignore the militancy anarchist
cookbook stuff and addresses which are mostly outdated... It's a practical
urban survival guide overall. It's a pdf that's widely available.)

If you want a simple business model that works, sell t-shirts on a high
pedestrian traffic area or tourist trap area (pier 39 sf). You may even clean
people's car windows for tips and pay at gas stations if you ask the
owner|manager & explain (many gas stations are independently owned.. Expect to
have to visit 10-15 stations to get approval and be super sincere). It's
generic hard work, but it's doable without skill or funding. Also sign up for
TaskRabbit for more skilled jobs that could pay more. (See a pattern.. Try
lots of things and hustle to get to higher paying gigs.). Btw playing up youth
leads to money... Stay clean, shave, youthful attire and get a haircut if
needed... You're the product if you offer a service. (Either look professional
or super pathetic, in between leads to less cash.)

Some religious organizations will help you, others like most of those in
Silicon Valley, only do happy-clappy and no social service volunteering as do
others in poorer areas. In fact if you ever had to bet outright, don't bother
begging from rich people, beg from lower/middle class areas.

If it's a super emergency in the US, apply for food stamps and general
assistance at your local social services agency. They'll usually give it to
you _the same day_ in the form of an EBT card that works at Costco, grocery
stores and pharmacies. It's a pittance, but it will keep you alive if you
budget it very carefully. (Beware: massive fees at almost every ATM. Always
get cash back at stores instead.) They may even throw in medical insurance if
you're broke enough. (I was a teacher in a minority area and had to help
emancipated students get food and get to school... I've seen almost
everything. :( ). Rationalize going on the dole as a buffer that you will pay
back through taxes many times over later, or to wealth and minimal taxes and
let the middle class handle that.

Cut your expenses (don't eat out) and travel as least as possible. Maybe buy a
cheapish van and live in it instead of paying rent. Cancel all those monthly
Internet services (games, Netflix, Hulu, spotify), perhaps even phone service.
Use coffee shops for power and data, maybe go Skype / google voice only. Cut
luxury prepared foods too. Shelter, food and transportation (gas) are the
actual necessities... Everthing else is a choice to rationalize excessive
consumerism. (Stop smoking, drinking and latte habits if present... This is
where most poor people hemorrhage money and may harm their health too. For
blanks sake don't drink or do drugs but do get good sleep, your judgement
(wits) needs to be perfect or one mistake on the street will kill you... You
need to be making the best possible decisions as often as possible to
bootstrap yourself back to where you want to be.)

Don't count on a startup for income... It's always a long shot / crapshoot and
most stories are pure survivor bias hiding the work, pain and luck involved.

~~~
jessehorne
I was denied food stamps because of some technicality with my roomate. We are
on our own, but he gets foodstamps that covers it for himself. We have a huge
bag of rice!

I'm going to get that book, and read it, and try to remember to contact you
once I have. We can chat about it. I like your thinking. Thank you!

~~~
rab_oof
_America: where you may have to lie and sell everything to be treated like a
criminal to get help to survive._ Srsly though, the rules aren't created to
help people, they're created to deny services to freeloaders and people that
sign up several times. There is always some sort of appeals process because
you can't just starve. You must show you really need it, have no wealth
(stocks, bonds or multiple vehicles). Some social agency people are mean
formerly poor or jaded, others are super empathetic.

No worries. Stay out of trouble. G'd luck ;)

------
philip1209
Are you hosting your personal website on Fastly? That's $50/mo and it looks
like you get almost no traffic! Switch to S3 (cheap) + Cloudflare (free
version) and save like $49/mo.

~~~
krat0sprakhar
Its hosted on Github -
[https://github.com/jessehorne/jessehorne.github.io](https://github.com/jessehorne/jessehorne.github.io)

Doing a dig on *.github.io shows github.fastly.net so probably thats why
you're seeing that.

------
kayhi
"Would I have a chance? I haven't listed all that I've done on my GitHub,
Linkedin, and such, keep in mind."

Maybe do this?

~~~
jessehorne
Heh, I giggled when I read this. I'm working on that now. I was too eager to
get responses before I went to sleep, I guess. Appreciate the response.

------
dec0dedab0de
apply for any technical job at a normal company, or any job at a technical
company(as long as it is something you can actually do). Things are much
easier once you are on the inside.

------
rubyfan
OMG what I wouldn't give to be an 18 year old programmer. The world is your
oyster dude.

"I am a young software developer.

more coming soon..."

You're god damn right. Income? Who needs it? Do something awesome that you are
_passionate_ about. Everything else will flow from that.

~~~
jessehorne
This post made my night. I appreciate the inspiration that you've given me.

"Do something awesome that you are passionate about." I've donated quite a few
hours just building applications with friends. There is no better feeling
being productive, working on something awesome with interesting people. Only
recently did I decide to stop working for free because it was a necessity (and
a few articles convinced me not to as well).

~~~
ryan_f
Be careful though. Yes, you are young and yes the world is your oyster but
everything still has consequences good or bad. Passion doesn't mean you have
to throw yourself at the work while ignoring other factors.

Passion may be working for 3 - 6 months to save to go to a development
bootcamp or just working through it. I know several have programs to get
financing to do it, if that is a possibility.

I've hired people from dev bootcamp and can say these programs are worth it.
Just be smart about it.

If you are passionate, then dedicating several months to save money to go to
one of the schools by taking any job while staying sharp should be worth it.
To the point, you are 18 yrs old and can take the few months now of working a
whole to set up the rest of your life.

Just don't go in debt. That lasts awhile, and I'm sure there's plenty of
people here who have been in it through a bad startup.

------
jasondenizac
Forward your question to Peter Thiel

------
lostghost
I'm the head of engineering for a growing company. I've been involved in
development for about twenty years. I've hired a number of young inexperienced
developers. I consider many of them to be the best hires I've ever made.

This is my advice to you.

1) Unless it's handed to you, don't focus on freelance. You're young and
inexperienced. Even if you have the best of intentions, if you take on a solo
project, you're not even going to be aware of the mistakes you're making, and
rather than learning from them and improving, you will likely turn bad
practices into bad habits. Right now you need to learn. You need to find a
small team that you can join as an intern or Jr. Developer. You need to be in
an environment where people around you can accelerate your education. Forget
pride. Forget expectations. Embrace the ability to learn and grow by making
professional mistakes in an environment where others will point out those
mistakes and the team will carry much of your weight while you gain
experience.

2) When networking and interviewing, don't sell yourself on what you know. In
the grand scheme, you don't know much, and you can't win by competing on
something that you lack. When I hire Jr. Developers, I don't really care what
they know or, on the surface, what they've done. I'm not hiring them for
experience or knowledge. I'm hiring them for their passion and their thirst
for knowledge. I'm making a gamble that the investment that I make into that
person is going to pay back 10 times. What matters to me is how willing that
person is to admit their weaknesses and to jump at the opportunity to learn.
Market yourself accordingly. Focus on networking through whatever local
meetups you can find. Ask (or beg) experienced developers in your area to meet
you for coffee so that you can pick their brain or ask advice. Always be
inquisitive. Do personal projects to challenge yourself. Find the things at
the very edge of your ability or comprehension, and challenge yourself to find
what lays just beyond. Repeat.

3) Show that you're committed. Many people disagree with the traditional
education system, especially in CS. But, the one thing that it shows is that
if you commit yourself to something that you will see it through. That said, I
don't have a CS degree and a rarely give a shit about a degree for anyone I'm
hiring, but, you need to find some way to demonstrate that commitment. As I
said, I'm going to invest heavily into you. The last thing in the world that I
want is someone that three months in suddenly feels like they no longer care,
or, worse yet, are now beyond the role.

4) On areas where you are knowledgeable, speak your mind. No one wants to hire
a limp fish. When I invest in helping you to grow, I'm going to look to you to
help the next young developer grow. That requires someone that is willing to
stick up for what they think is the right way to do a thing. But, this
specific piece of advice comes with two important caveats. First, don't
boastfully preach on areas where you are not informed. It's called bull-
shitting, and those around you will know. And second, however strongly you
hold a belief, always remember that as we grow our beliefs will evolve. Don't
close yourself off from different ideas or opinions.

One of the best developers that I ever hired broke down in the middle of a
technical interview. We were hammering him about some somewhat advanced
Javascript concepts and he couldn't provide answers. He was visibly upset and
frustrated and clearly felt by the end of the interview that he wouldn't be
hearing back from us. Before he left, he told me, "You know, I'm sorry that I
got upset. I'm frustrated that I can't answer these questions. But most of
all, I'm frustrated that I'm not at a place where I can learn to answer these
questions." That was one of the most honest and impactful things I've heard
from any candidate and I knew on the spot that he was the right hire. In the
last three years that he's been on my team, he has gone from limited
experience outside of HTML and Javascript, to production quality Ruby,
Objective C, and Java development.

That's what I look for in an inexperienced developer.

~~~
jessehorne
Very good advice, thank you. I'm going to put what you've said into practice.
Like I said to someone earlier, I can't wait to be learning under some
experienced programmers. It's going to be fantastic, and I believe it will
happen.

------
Klinky
Get your resume spruced up. If you don't have actual work experience, create a
list of personal projects and describe how you made them.

Put as much information on major job sites like Monster, SimplyHired, Indeed,
Dice,etc.. It's boring and if you don't have much to list, disheartening, but
likely you'll get some recruiters calling you to try to fit you into whatever
job de jour they have cooking that day. At least having someone calling though
with minor interest helps boost confidence.

Apply to small local companies, don't bother with huge organizations(e.g.
power companies, healthcare). If there is a long drawn out application process
on their website, avoid it. Ensure you include a cover letter and customize it
to include something about the company, and why you'd be excited to work for
them(e.g. you like their product, and can see how it could make a difference
in the world).

Get your GED. I think you're giving a poor excuse for why you don't have it.
There are tons of places to take the GED test. Get it at least scheduled and
go.

Even if you don't want to go through the typical education process, jobs won't
just land in your lap. You're likely going to have to work just as hard(or
harder) driving yourself towards personal improvement, as you would going
through college. It's also extremely easy to become apathetic and let your
life slip away when your goals are ambiguous. You need to become a specialist.
A ton of people in my area are looking for AngularJS programmers. This is
probably one of the top requested things recruiters were asking for. To really
become a specialist though, you'd probably need at least a few months
dedicated to making serious applications with AngularJS. The market could also
fall out from under you as well, and suddenly your specialist skill isn't what
people need anymore.

If you really need money, look for extremely low end jobs that have nothing to
do with programming/tech and try to expand your role as the "tech guy" once
you get there. Even putting something on your resume like "assisted co-workers
with technical problems" and a few stories involving your problem solving
skills in the work environment may get you noticed.

Go to user groups or tech meets in the area. Try to find out what people are
working on, and make them aware you're available. Maybe you can pick up odd
jobs.

Ultimately, if you really cannot find work and you are passionate about
programming, swallow your pride, get loans and go to school(community college,
then university). Even if you end up with 50 - 60K debt, you WILL be able to
pay it off with a professional software developer salary. It's probably one of
the most worthwhile investments you could make in yourself. Just make sure you
network while in school, look for internships, apply for campus tech jobs, and
develop a hearty list of personal and school projects.

~~~
jessehorne
I'm sorry that I didn't clarify above; I do have my GED. I got it when I
turned 16 because I knew I needed atleast that if I wanted a chance.

There doesn't seem to be any local software related companies but I've looked
into several potential options. I also know that Atlanta seems to have a lot
more options available, and will be putting in some more applications to
places in those areas as well.

~~~
Klinky
Well that is one thing to your advantage then.

If you really have other strong potential options to making money outside of
software, then I'd suggest you do that now, and continue to improve your
technical side in the meantime.

Success doesn't happen overnight unless you're extremely lucky.

When I was 16 my brother and I moved out, and I ended up in call centers for
the next 14 years. I am only now getting out after working extremely hard over
the last year to improve myself and my confidence. I avoided your typical
educational path due to lack of confidence and fear of debt. In the end I wish
I had gone the typical route, because the atypical route was harder, and even
now I am not going to be making as much as could be.

I'd really suggest you look into options at your local college. There is
likely financial aid and scholarships, and do not fear loans. Even if you just
get a two year degree that might be enough to get you an internship at some
big name company in the area, or even a full-time position. If there are no
tech jobs in your immediate area, think about how you can move to an area
where there are more.

Unless you really can show off your rockstar talent and persona, or that
you've survived an office environment and held down a stable job before, it's
probably going to be difficult convincing someone to take a chance.

