
Amazon's top selling laptop doesn't run Windows or Mac OS, it runs Linux - iProject
http://www.zdnet.com/amazons-top-selling-laptop-doesnt-run-windows-or-mac-os-it-runs-linux-7000009433/
======
MattRogish
I have the first CR-48 Chromebook that Google sent out a few years ago. The
first iterations of Chrome OS were a disaster. It was basically a full-screen
version of Chrome browser behind a login window. Ugh.

However, for kicks and grins I pulled out the CR-48 a little while ago and was
pleasantly surprised that I was able to update to the latest version and -
gasp - it was actually quite usable!

I have been using it on and off ever since (it sits in our conference room as
a general note-taking and projector device) and I must say - there's
absolutely something to this thing. The battery life is great (like 9 hours),
screen is OK, keyboard is nice. Trackpad is still miserable.

For the most part my non-professional-work-life lives in a Chrome window
anyway (gmail, google docs). If it had a decent text editor (I guess there's a
SSH app you can get) I could see it working pretty well as a web development
machine.

But for the proverbial "Aunt Tillie", this would be not a terrible device if
the iPad was a little too simple. Auto-updates, Chrome syncing, Google docs?
Pretty compelling.

~~~
redegg
> gasp - it was actually quite usable!

It was the opposite for me. I've been using it for some time and stopped due
to the constant crashing.

Each new update I had hoped the stability would improve, but it seems they're
for new features only the new models could flawlessly run. Alas, I gave up a
month ago. It's sitting in my pile of netbooks.

~~~
Osiris
I have a CR-48 and I don't recall ever seeing it crash. Are you referring to a
kernel panic or something that crashes the whole machine or just a browser tab
crashing?

My CR-48 is my 7 year old daughter's machine to play flash games and such.
Unfortunately, the CPU/GPU is a but underpowered for full screen Adobe Flash
content.

~~~
redegg
No, it just gives me this screen:

[http://www.techjawa.com/wp-
content/uploads/2011/02/chromeos_...](http://www.techjawa.com/wp-
content/uploads/2011/02/chromeos_ponyRecovery.png)

------
jamesaguilar
Ah, let's remember one thing real quick. When people talk about macbooks being
the best selling laptop line by a large margin, someone else always points out
that that is because it represents the entire access to that ecosystem (i.e.
the total sales are not split between brands).

In this case, you're also looking at a very cheap laptop in an OS where there
are only two MODELS even on sale, one of which is older. It does not
necessarily, or even probably, signal a sea change in the way people think
about OSes.

~~~
tankbot
> It does not necessarily, or even probably, signal a sea change in the way
> people think about OSes.

I think this is a true statement and I agree completely, but only because Joe
Averageuser doesn't think about OS's _at all_.

I think this very much does signal a sea change in the way people use their
computers.

There will always be folks like you and me who want to get down to the nuts
and bolts of things and start tweaking, but most people just want to check
their email/facebook and work on that spreadsheet/document for the boss.

For years we have all been talking about what moving 'to the cloud' would mean
for computing as a whole and now it's happening. Your data goes with you
wherever you go and your computer is a super cheap and nigh-disposable way to
access it.

The writing is definitely on the wall. In fact, at this point, it's been there
long enough that it's starting to fade a little.

------
Tloewald
Microsoft may not last as long as we (I) have always assumed — on the PC front
at least it seems to be bad news and more bad news. Mobile sales already dwarf
desktop, and installed base will soon follow. Even if MS is successful in
mobile, there's far less fat to play with — it can't sustain licensing costs
(netbooks already dinged it) either for OS or applications, and its network
effect lockin is pretty much broken.

Interesting times.

~~~
jacquesm
The Titanic took two hours and forty minutes to sink. Long enough for someone
to make a motion picture about it.

Microsoft is a lot larger than is readily apparent. That's because in the
enterprise they're about as entrenched as can be.

Take away excel and the impact would be about as bad as taking away google
would be (or maybe even worse).

MS will be around in some form or another for a long time. The question is
more whether or not they'll be able to leverage the remains of the old into
something new. My guess is not as long as Ballmer is still around.

~~~
AlexDanger
>Take away excel and the impact would be about as bad as taking away google
would be (or maybe even worse).

I work for one of the largest companies in the world and this is absolutely
true. If Google went offline it would be a minor inconvenience. Taking away
Excel would grind the company to a halt. I tried converting a few of our hefty
xls files to Google Spreadsheets but its not yet robust enough for the task.
And thats just the worksheets themselves - VBA and macros are another level
entirely.

That said, I cant help but see trouble on the horizon for Microsoft's
enterprise offerings. We recently transitioned to a MS hosted Sharepoint 2010
and its absolutely woeful. Office 365 is ok but not a killer app.

MS can afford to make some fuckups in this area but if they lose traction in
the enterprise then I think its the beginning of the end. I guess the xbox
division can keep them alive for a while.

~~~
Tloewald
Insofar as Excel is needed my question is how badly are new copies of Excel
needed? Excel isn't rented out — you can keep using it as long as you need to
and it won't do MS a lick of good.

~~~
AlexDanger
A very good point. And currently Office 365 isnt a value proposition for
upgrade. It wont even load most of our department's important spreadsheets.

But dont the big corps work on volume licensing that is renewed regularly? In
any case there clearly isnt a rush of new customers.

~~~
Tloewald
And MS could see itself in the position of Apple circa 1995, when desktop
publishing departments had a few aging macs running pagemaker or quark.

~~~
AlexDanger
Heh, I can see that. We already have some legacy IE6 internal webapps running
on Citrix.

------
RexRollman
The most interesting thing about ChromeOS (to me) is the way that it updates.
My understanding is the ChromeOS has two root partitions and when it updates,
it updates the one it is not currently booted from. After updating, it then
boots from the newly updated root.

I haven't heard of this technique being used in any other Linux distribution
and I think it is quite novel. Sure, it wastes some disk space, but that if
fairly cheap these days.

------
tbirdz
"Do you spend 90% of your time working on the Web? Using software-as-a-service
or Web apps most of the time?"

No and No. I guess chromebooks aren't for me.

~~~
colin_jack
Even if you do I'd be careful in assuming a Chromebook is the answer. I bought
one to use with C9 (IDE) but found Chrome OS very poor in terms of basic
functionality and C9 ran unusably slowly on it.

------
so898
As the Windows Phone get the top selling smart phone in Amazon, I do not trust
any list from Amazon anymore. I think they make these lists for some reasons.

~~~
abraham
WP isn't even in the top 20 of best selling phones on Amazon.

[http://www.amazon.com/Best-Sellers-Cell-Phones-
Accessories-S...](http://www.amazon.com/Best-Sellers-Cell-Phones-Accessories-
Service-Plans/zgbs/wireless/2407747011/)

~~~
recoiledsnake
That is because Amazon had been running out of stock of the Lumia 920, so
people began to look elsewhere.

Previously:

[http://wmpoweruser.com/nokia-lumia-920-still-got-
ittopping-a...](http://wmpoweruser.com/nokia-lumia-920-still-got-ittopping-
att-best-sellers-on-amazon/)

[http://wmpoweruser.com/nokia-lumia-920-swarms-amazons-
best-s...](http://wmpoweruser.com/nokia-lumia-920-swarms-amazons-best-seller-
charts/)

[http://wmpoweruser.com/now-even-amazon-is-complaining-of-
tre...](http://wmpoweruser.com/now-even-amazon-is-complaining-of-tremendous-
demand-for-the-nokia-lumia-920/)

~~~
abraham
Except it's in stock right now: [http://www.amazon.com/Nokia-
Lumia-920-Windows-Phone/dp/B00A2...](http://www.amazon.com/Nokia-
Lumia-920-Windows-Phone/dp/B00A2V7BA4/)

And the Chromebook in question has been out of stock from Amazon and only
available through resalers at a significant markup.

------
eli
That seems misleading.

Sure, the ChromeBook is the best selling SKU, but wouldn't it make more sense
to combine numbers for the 500GB MacBook Pro and the 750GB MacBook Pro?

------
kurrent
"it runs Linux".....a specialized version of Gentoo to be exact.

~~~
vilgax
And what is Gentoo?

~~~
iProject
<http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Gentoo_Linux>

~~~
vilgax
I know what Gentoo is. My point is we don't say Ubuntu "a specialized version
of Debian", yes it is derived from it but still basically its Linux.

------
black4eternity
Most likely it is the 'not very tech savvy' crowd which is buying these
laptops for themselves or others without realizing that it's not a fully
functional Desktop OS.

I can imagine a loving grandparent buying this affordable "Laptop" for their
grand kids thinking this suits my budget. Or someone thinking sure this thing
is like the one I have back at home.

~~~
prewett
I imagine if the returns start getting out of hand that Amazon will put "Does
not have Windows" prominently somewhere. Also, at least as of right now, the
second review clearly mentions that this does not have Windows.

~~~
alan_cx
Not sure that would help that many grandparents. Not even sure my mother would
understand. In fact, I'm pretty sure some of my kids wouldn't understand
either. A lot of people see "laptop", or what ever, and expect it to do
"laptop".

Again, a geek assumption about what non-geeks know.

------
smallegan
I think return rate would be a very useful statistic for Amazon to give out. I
love the Chrome OS but my guess is that many who buy these Chromebooks expect
a full blown laptop and return them or sell them as soon as they realize it
isn't. My local Best Buy has stopped carrying them for this reason.

------
shmerl
I'd prefer to see more high end laptops with normal Linux to be sold.

~~~
rogerbinns
The Thinkpads I buy run Linux. Except of course I pay the Microsoft tax and
Lenovo never knows that they actually sold a Linux laptop not a Windows
laptop. I use the Windows for configuring BIOS fingerprint access and in the
olden days playing the occasional game.

~~~
shmerl
Did you ever succeed in getting your Windows tax back in case when you don't
need Windows? Lenovo's refusal to provide such option is actually illegal. See
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_refund>

~~~
rogerbinns
The legality varies by country. In general they just say that they are selling
the system and software as a whole so you can return everything for a refund.
In any event it is too late now.

~~~
shmerl
I think it's surely illegal in EU, but it also must be illegal in US, at least
in theory, based on the Clayton Act:
<http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/15/14>

However I'm interested if anyone actually succeeded in proving it in some
small claims court. There are legal precedents of victories against tying
policies of Lenovo and the like in Europe, but I didn't find any similar
examples in US.

~~~
rogerbinns
It is a lot harder in the US and too late for me anyway. They'll offer to take
the whole system back, not just parts. (In the same way you can't get a refund
for the headrests in a car if you don't want them.)

~~~
shmerl
But the same computer can be used with other OS, and denying such option is
anti-competitive product tying which falls under antitrust regulations. I
agree however that it'll require a precedent to have a solid base for this.

------
arindone
For Mac OS sales in-store will always trump sales out-of-store; the Mac buying
experience is quintessential for the average consumer. This comparing Linux
Chromebook purchases on Amazon with Mac OS is irrelevant to me.

I will say the comparison to Windows-based computers is a bit surprising
however. Still, the type of person who buys a computer on Amazon is more tech-
savvy anyway and would prefer a Linux-based OS as compared to the other two.

------
nicholassmith
This is sort of like when netbooks took over a significant marketshare for a
brief period. It's new, it's novel, more importantly it's _cheap_ and that's a
big motivator. When netbooks were selling like hotcakes a lot of them came
with Linux distros pre-installed, so it's not like Linux doesn't get its
moment in the sun every now and again.

------
plg
The chromebook is not a general purpose computer, it is a google appliance.
Like an iPod is not a computer, it's a music-playing appliance. Chromebook is
not a computer, it's a gmail/google-docs/google-calendar appliance.

------
chrisringrose
It's misleading to make it sound like this is somehow a victory for Linux.

 _This is a win for web apps._ This is proof that traditional desktop apps are
dying.

------
k_bx
Skype. The only missing thing is skype.

~~~
willvarfar
it has google hangout, though, right?

~~~
k_bx
Yes. But only if it would matter to current skype-users.

I think Facebook would be able to replace skype quickly (since everybody have
Facebook), but not Google.

~~~
steevdave
If they have a Chromebook, it's a good bet they have a Google account.
Hangouts are one of the "apps" installed.

~~~
k_bx
I'm getting crazy on this. Just quick recap:

1\. I did a statement that people who need skype won't buy it. 2\. Someone
told me that "these things have hangout instead". 3\. I pointed that it
doesn't matter since all your contacts are still in skype (and their contacts
too), so you'll have to switch them all to hangout too. 4\. Now you're saying
"If they have a Chromebook, it's a good bet they have a Google account".

How is it related at all???

------
zura
And the second top runs FreeDOS? I don't think that's relevant in the scope
this article emphasizes.

------
tuananh
Apple sells Macbook via Apple Store. The title is misleading.

~~~
abraham
How is the title misleading? It's #1 sold on Amazon, not #1 of all laptops
sold.

> Amazon's top selling laptop doesn't run Windows or Mac OS, it runs Linux

~~~
tuananh
It's like saying "Windows phone is the only smartphone on market that support
Live Tiles".

~~~
vvhn
Actually, it's not. Apple does sell Macbooks through Amazon. No iPhones or
iPads but Amazon has been selling Macs forever -
[http://www.amazon.com/b?ie=UTF8&node=2423178011](http://www.amazon.com/b?ie=UTF8&node=2423178011)

~~~
tuananh
I didn't see many people order Macbook from Amazon while they can do it
directly from Apple Store.

~~~
corin_
Are the prices the same? When I wanted a new iPod a month ago, Amazon's prices
were significantly lower than Apple Store's, even for the newly released
generation of Nanos.

~~~
vvhn
they are usually slightly cheaper and till very recently in California,
significantly cheaper because of the no sales tax advantage they had. The
final price was >10% lower just because of that but Amazon doesn't have that
advantage anymore.

~~~
corin_
In the UK there is no tax difference (both Apple and Amazon have to include
20% VAT here), but still a big price difference. Here's an example, the iPod
Nano 16GB latest generation is £103.99 on Amazon [1] compared to £129 direct
from Apple [2], which is a saving of £25.01, which is 19%.

[1] [http://www.amazon.co.uk/Apple-iPod-nano-16GB-
Generation/dp/B...](http://www.amazon.co.uk/Apple-iPod-nano-16GB-
Generation/dp/B009A5EB0G/)

[2]
[http://store.apple.com/uk/browse/home/shop_ipod/family/ipod_...](http://store.apple.com/uk/browse/home/shop_ipod/family/ipod_nano)

(That Amazon link doesn't include shipping but that's only an extra £3.99, so
still considerably cheaper, and I'm sure when I bought mine it had free
shipping... could be wrong, though.)

------
cooldeal
Funny to see something even more locked down than Windows being cheered by the
Linux crowd. There are no native apps,you need a Google account to access
it(don't know what happens if your Google account happens to get disabled for
whatever reason). Google neither releases the source for it's online
offerings, not is it very useful even if they do.

The kicker is that the 100GB free storage on Google's cloud is only free for 2
years, after which you have to pay for it.

How is any of this better for consumer freedom than just Windows 7? The answer
is not "because it has a developer switch on the back to install Ubuntu"; you
can do that on a Windows PC as well. And an overwhelming percentage of normal
consumers buying it won't be installing Ubuntu on it. In fact, I suspect that
this kind of device that is absolutely at the mercy of a corporation is much
closer to RMS dystopian vision than any Windows PC.

Would it make any difference to the user or even developers if it ran GoOS as
the kernel instead of Linux? This is pretty much like a Tivo or a router.

~~~
AnthonyMouse
>How is any of this better for consumer freedom than just Windows 7?

Ecosystem. This is a limited function device, which is bad, but anything you
can do on it you can also do on a full Linux distribution. Which means that
anyone who can get by with such a device will have no barrier to switching if
they are ever inclined to do so.

That is the difference from a Windows machine. Because if you have Windows
then you start accumulating Windows apps and you become accustomed to their
interfaces and your files are in those formats, etc. etc. Windows locks you
into Windows. ChromeOS doesn't lock you into ChromeOS; you can switch to a
full desktop Linux distribution whenever you want and everything still works.

~~~
cooldeal
Which also means that they can switch to a Macbook or a Windows PC whenever
they want instead of a Linux machine. How does that help Linux?

~~~
AnthonyMouse
First of all, your original question was, "How is any of this better for
consumer freedom than just Windows 7?" Being able to easily switch to any OS
is obviously better for consumer freedom.

So now you are asking a different question. But are you serious? One of the
main barriers to Linux adoption has been the difficulty of switching as a
result of lock in. Are you seriously asking how the elimination of that
barrier could be good for Linux just because it also eliminates the same
barrier for other operating systems?

OK, the default alternative to ChromeOS is that people use Windows. Using
ChromeOS does not decrease the switching barrier to using Windows as compared
with having used Windows in the first place, it only decreases the switching
barrier to using Linux or MacOS. Moreover, MacOS can't be installed on a
Chromebook, so there remains the substantial barrier to switching to MacOS of
buying a different, much more expensive computer instead of just installing a
desktop Linux distribution on the Chromebook.

~~~
anonymfus
By this logic most free people are people who don't use computers at all, they
have no switching barriers.

~~~
AnthonyMouse
>By this logic most free people are people who don't use computers at all,
they have no switching barriers.

Is there some reason you expect that conclusion to be an absurdity? Fact:
People who have never used a computer are the ones with the most freedom to
choose between operating systems, because they have nothing invested in any of
them yet.

You seem to be implying that this is somehow not the case. Please elaborate.

------
drivebyacct2
Funny that Linux is everywhere in the form of Android and Chrome OS, but for
all the efforts of Linux on the Desktop, it just isn't terribly successful. Is
it a marketing thing? By all measures, Ubuntu (preinstalled) on a laptop is
more functional than Chrome OS, or is the continuation of the dumbification of
computing interfaces?

~~~
jxi
It's probably been said over and over again, but the problem is that Linux (or
I guess Ubuntu) isn't really easy to use for the non-tech type. It's an OS
that gives you an interface to your computer, not an OS that will get out of
the way and just help you do what you need to do. However, after switching to
Mac, I've realized Windows is not really easy to use either, but that's been
kind of shoved down people's throats since they were young, so people kind of
know their way around it.

Dumbification does imply simplification though so I think it's generally a
right direction and may be one factor that makes ChromeOS appealing (the
problem there though is that it lacks a few fundamental features right now,
but that's more easily fixable).

~~~
drivebyacct2
>not an OS that will get out of the way and just help you do what you need to
do

Huh? Unity, especially with auto-hide is literally more out-of-your-way than
any other Desktop Environment in any Operating System I can think of. (And I
don't even like Unity, I like Cinnamon and Elementary which are very similar
to the Windows XP/7 and OS X style desktop environments.)

I'm just really exhausted of non-specific "it's hard to use". (Keep in mind I
was specifically talking about pre-installed, though the Windows/Ubuntu
installers are nearly the same). If I asked someone to install iTunes in
Windows versus install Rhythmbox in Ubuntu, I _know_ which would be easier for
someone who had never used either before. Go to a website, download an EXE,
bypass the scary security prompt, walk through a six step installer asking
about location, menu entries and more. Or open Software Center, type "music
player", pick one and click "Install".

If "it's hard to use" because people are used to Windows, I throw my hands up,
there's no way to reply to that.

~~~
unimpressive
>If "it's hard to use" because people are used to Windows, I throw my hands
up, there's no way to reply to that.

That's basically the answer. That and it's hard to use because most of the
software in a windows power users toolkit is windows only. So using Linux for
them is like using windows and wishing for bash.

~~~
drivebyacct2
>So using Linux for them is like using windows and wishing for bash.

A very eye-opening analogy and one that I can obviously more than sympathize
with. (Although Git kindly installs Git Bash now which is appreciated.)

